# Napoleon 9700 Ultimate Gas Furnaces - very noisy!!



## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Bought the Top of the line 9700 Ultimate Napoleon furnace which is suppose to be the best of the best. NOPE not at all a bitter disappointment. *It so noisy far more than my ancient mid efficiency was.* Air flow is also quite poor. The ECM motor/blower appears to be making its own noises IMO I can even hear it on a low speed since it runs for a while after you think its off I hear a noise and track it down when I get close to the vent. This tells me something is not right.

The blower has been eliminated now as the case with a replacement of the assemble in its entirety. From a detailed look while being worked on all the focus on design was on the outside panels and NOT the interior design or craftsmanship. Crude assemble and very little insulation visible and certainly not easily serviceable. Blower need to be cleaned regularity and you'd think it would be designed for some ease but not and all electrical connection just hang in their space around the control board. They just made to look good but functionality is key. *DON'T BUY NAPOLEON IS MY RECOMMENDATION* lots of money spent and noise is what you get for sure.

Don't chance getting one stick to proven companies. Goodman, Amana, Daykin I'd say. I might have to get this torn out if the contractor in Ontario doesn't do something about it soon!! Patience is running thin after almost two months now.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Is the problem just noise from one vent?

I am not defending or promoting them BUT Napoleon fireplaces are extremely well built and I doubt they will build a cheap furnace and ruin their very long term good reputation.

I Googled: Napoleon furnace complaint and found none. I also found a video of a 9700 and it is not much different than this video and probably they are the same. 9700 may be slightly higher efficiency.

Here is a video showing their construction and it is no different than any other brand. They use the same GE motor and parts as other brands.

This is not a brand bashing allowed site but if the problem is with your ductwork or one vent then that has nothing to do with them.

Ideally the furnace should be installed on rubber mounts.

High efficiency furnaces can have a very different sound than mid efficiency because of the tubular heat exchanger and there is nothing you can do about it.

Post a video of it with the sound and maybe we can tell if it is out of the norm.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Noise is easily heard on both first and 2nd floor. New runs and existing runs previously existing. I can hear the blower even at lower speeds which occurs at the beginning and end of cycles. High fire of course is louder since the blower is also runing faster. 

A family member has a new Goodman and its no audible at all and purrs in comparison when standing in front of it. Its a 2 stage ECM build as well. I called them and they took my info but nothing has happened. The contractor is not the design engineer and it is what is it (A box of obsolete engineering and noise generator). Yeah you did not find anything. But if something is done you find posts I have made on every forum I can find.

DO NOT BUY NAPOLEON PERIOD. There are plenty of other proven choices to buy. I spent a bucket load of money on a high end system AC included and rubbish is what I ended up with. I can't fault the contractor entirely but knowone i know or talk to will be buying one I can guarantee that.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Every forced hot air system that I have ever been around makes noise. If you wanted a perfectly quite system, maybe radiant floor heat would be the ticket. But even with that, there is occasional ticking from pipes expanding and contracting.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

i am not talking about ticking etc.
Its a steady blower noise which increase with speed. I have talked to many owners both around here and other areas we know and meet. They all say they don't hear their furnaces running in their rooms (via vents etc). Many have come by and well OMG could be their assessment. The HVAC guy don't claim its normal either but cannot do much, other that wait for Napoleon to address the problem (rip out the furnace!!! Most likely)

I am online a lot. As you see I can if I choose to respond quickly. Once I get started on other thread on the Internet. Napoleon will have acted far too late. I found this DIY forum searching for it and say the one on the 9600. Others will as well once Google gets its lock on the keywords and done then pickup others around the internet as well.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

How skilled is your contractor?

Did he measure the ducts and make sure they are big enough.

If you have a shortage of return then a ECM will work harder and the sound will increase. Same with the supply.

It uses the exact same GE ECM motor as the Goodman and Lennox and millions of other units so I doubt it is the motor but a airflow issue.

The contractor MUST adjust the airflow with dip switches on the circuit board to get the proper temp rise on low and high fire. Ideally they should be mid range.

If it is 35-65 on high fire we try get it to 50F. The specs are on the model # sticker.

Point being if it is going too fast with out of the box settings that can be noisy.

You cannot compare 2 or more houses for sound as the size of ducts and location of return air and amount will change the sound so I would not totally compare what your friends say.

The ECM motor ramps up and down at startup and end of cycle but you airflow should not be too high or excessive.

I am just trying to solve your problem as you may end up with the same sound with a Goodman if it is a duct issue.

Goodman/Amana is now owned by Daikin.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Done all that a 3rd time when new blower w/ECM was installed. it was better but still noisy. Jumpers set & air temp rise balance within spec's so as not to exceed max temp as air flow restriction occurs in air filter. 

They have a very good reputation without a doubt. 

There is no way I could run the AC since this would become so unbearable I'd be pressed to silence it. (12 gauge or equiv) I lost enough sleep to date but its better since the speed has been dropped a lot in the current configuration.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Air noise isn't the fault of the equipment. It's the duct layout. Put a crappy duct system together and any unit will be noisy.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

The ducts are not generating the noise the furnace is generating the noise and even on its lowest blower idle speed it can be heard.

Others will decide for themselves if they want part with their hard earned money for one of the Napoleon Noise machines or look elsewhere at someone elses furnace. I know I would have had I see a post on it. If the contractor was pushing it I would the Make Him Guarantee it would not be noise and be heard in bedrooms etc. LOL Then see what he says to that. Make hime guarantee its a quiet design. 

Napoleon Claims WHISPER QUIET IN THEIR VIDEO which none of those adjective can be used whatsoever!! 

Anyway I am done with this for now. I some else wishes to post I may respond. I am putting the word out and they are warned which is clearly the intent not to get sucked in by false promises or claims of a Whisper Quiet Furnace. Because its not even anything close to quiet if its on in any mode.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

So what kind of noise is this? Is it mechanical or more of an air movement noise? Perhaps you can post a video of the noise?
How close is the return grill to the blower, and what are the sizes of the returns (all of them)?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

The fan motors in these furnaces speed up and make more noise to compensate for air duct pressure.

If the furnace is trying to move too much air for your air ducts, it's not the manufacturer's fault, it's the installers for either oversizing or not setting the dip switches right or both.

There are dip switch settings that can be changed to lower the airflow but still keep in within rated range.

your contractor probably turned it on and left - didn't check temperature rise or fuel input -> both need to be done to make sure the unit is running properly.

These units aren't plug and play by any means, it's not like buying a fridge where they deliver it, scrap the old one, plug it in and maybe hook up an ice maker. 

These systems are engineered and the furnace is *only one part of the system.*

It's the contractor's job to make sure the furnace is a good fit for the duct system and house.

Don't blame the manufacturer; the instructions of any piece of equipment lay out sizing, install and commissioning requirements. There's no excuse.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

roughneck said:


> Air noise isn't the fault of the equipment. It's the duct layout. Put a crappy duct system together and any unit will be noisy.


Enable PM private messages roughneck OR go to rewards at the top of this page (if you did not know you have Rewards points) you can :smile:use them.

Or donate them to Yuri:biggrin2:

There was a Marine toys for tots or other charity awhile back.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

PMs are turned on. 
I knew about the reward points, to be honest I haven't paid all that much attention to them lately


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

roughneck said:


> PMs are turned on.
> I knew about the reward points, to be honest I haven't paid all that much attention to them lately


It says you have PMs turned off or cannot receive them when I try.

Or my computer is wonky but I PM Beenthere and others with no problems.

Get him or Cricket to check it for you if you want.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Try now Yuri


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

roughneck said:


> Try now Yuri


Just did and it allowed me.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Tripple said:


> Bought the Top of the line 9700 Ultimate Napoleon furnace which is suppose to be the best of the best. NOPE not at all a bitter disappointment. *It so noisy far more than my ancient mid efficiency was.* Air flow is also quite poor. The ECM motor/blower appears to be making its own noises IMO I can even hear it on a low speed since it runs for a while after you think its off I hear a noise and track it down when I get close to the vent. This tells me something is not right.
> 
> The blower has been eliminated now as the case with a replacement of the assemble in its entirety. From a detailed look while being worked on all the focus on design was on the outside panels and NOT the interior design or craftsmanship. Crude assemble and very little insulation visible and certainly not easily serviceable. Blower need to be cleaned regularity and you'd think it would be designed for some ease but not and all electrical connection just hang in their space around the control board. They just made to look good but functionality is key. *DON'T BUY NAPOLEON IS MY RECOMMENDATION* lots of money spent and noise is what you get for sure.
> 
> Don't chance getting one stick to proven companies. Goodman, Amana, Daykin I'd say. I might have to get this torn out if the contractor in Ontario doesn't do something about it soon!! Patience is running thin after almost two months now.


9700 Ultimate Napoleon furnace is a pretty good line, but the furnace is only 1/2 the battle. The other 1/2 is the install and if badly done it can make even the most expensive furnace sound like a piece of crap.... and the duct work (or badly done/wrong sized duct work is where most if not all the noise is produced.

A 9700 in action... and this customer sounds pretty satisfied.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Unfortunately, it really does sound like someone who is more upset, then a DIYr trying to get advice. There's plenty of advice already on this thread. Without a video or audio recording, it's going to be nearly impossible to help further. 

One thing that I noticed: Tripple, you mentioned that they changed the dip switch settings.... But do you have a conventional or communicating thermostat? 

As for online reviews..... I weight positive reviews, 1 to 50 negative reviews. I wish the OP gets out sorted out, but bashing usually doesn't get very far for big brands. (I've seen it work very well for startups. Almost unfairly.) 

Cheers!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Unfortunately too many people, installers included, see hvac equipment as plug and play the same as one would install a tv or washing machine. But there's so much more to setting equipment up properly


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

supers05 said:


> Unfortunately, it really does sound like someone who is more upset, then a DIYr trying to get advice. There's plenty of advice already on this thread. Without a video or audio recording, it's going to be nearly impossible to help further.
> 
> One thing that I noticed: Tripple, you mentioned that they changed the dip switch settings.... But do you have a conventional or communicating thermostat?
> 
> ...


 I got a fairly High end Honewell thermostat. Dual stage and yes the furnace is set so the dual fire modes are controlled by the stat which as a wireless outdoor temperature sensor along it controls the humidifier as well via 8 wires run to it. I have it set to finish on stage #2 since when its well below zero stage #1 is not enough to finish and turn off (not enough heat) from this 60k unit. Also 0.5 increase and it goes to stage #2. Its pretty high end model.

Furnace blower can be heard loud from all vents pretty much. Seer 16 AC is installed as well but never run as it was winter. Yes Napoleon and highest model they had hear!!! As before this is 2nd blower assemble and I can clearly hear the blower start spinning and ramping up speed (like a turbine). Not pleasant when trying to sleep nor other times as well. This replace a 105k BTU mid efficiency unit.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Do you remember the brand name and model # of the old furnace and can post it?

Unfortunately there can be large differences in sound between mid efficiency furnaces and high. The new furnace is less than 33" tall and the old one was probably in the 50" range.

The airflow patterns thru them are different because of the different style of heat exchanger. ECM motors ramp up in speed unlike the old 4 speed PSC you probably had before. Even the curve of the blades inside the fan will be different to get the required CFM and that can change the sound.

IMO the furnace in the video (VERY good, neat install BTW) sounds no different than any other furnace and quieter than some. The only VERY quite furnace is a Lennox or Rheem modulating as they have a firing rang from 35% to 100% and the air starts at a slower speed and you cannot hear it slowly increase w/o fixating on it. Some other modulating furnaces come close.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

It sounds like the duct is to blame. Which is not the fault of the equipment. What did the commissioning report say the static pressure and total CFM were measured at?


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Was a low boy Olsen.

The A-coil is a certified part that they had to use for meeting energy rating and rebate. Cannot be changed without signing off by Napoleon and does and a much higher static pressure across it than it should. We have not heard back from Napoleon neither of us to deal with it. Its new and clean.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Tripple said:


> I got a fairly High end Honewell thermostat. Dual stage and yes the furnace is set so the dual fire modes are controlled by the stat which as a wireless outdoor temperature sensor along it controls the humidifier as well via 8 wires run to it. I have it set to finish on stage #2 since when its well below zero stage #1 is not enough to finish and turn off (not enough heat) from this 60k unit. Also 0.5 increase and it goes to stage #2. Its pretty high end model.
> 
> Furnace blower can be heard loud from all vents pretty much. Seer 16 AC is installed as well but never run as it was winter. Yes Napoleon and highest model they had hear!!! As before this is 2nd blower assemble and I can clearly hear the blower start spinning and ramping up speed (like a turbine). Not pleasant when trying to sleep nor other times as well. This replace a 105k BTU mid efficiency unit.


Doesn't sound like a communicating stat. They will override the settings in the furnace. Why end on high fire? You would want to down stage before shutting off for comfort reasons. (although dropping 20kbtu on the output is fairly large. I hope that they did a heat loss.) 

There's clearly something off on that unit. Without being about to hear it, we can't tell what it is. They are designed to move a certain about of air, and will speed up to compensate for restrictions. The old furnaces would just lose air volume silently, and you wouldn't know, destroying your furnace. 

Do you have an exact heat rise number? Did they clock the meter? Did they measure air flow? I'm not so familiar with that model, but others have LED lights to show calculated airflow. 

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

A low boy Olsen compared to any new 33" high efficiency unit will have a very different sound.

Olsen and Clare were VERY heavy built and had slower fans than what you have now. They could provide a much higher supply air temp because of the solid ( almost cast iron ) heat exchangers used back in the day.

A low boy if it had the fan at the back of the exchanger rather than under it like now has a much different sound. ICG and Lennox had some (G8E Conservator) and they were very quiet.

I would insist your contractor measure your ducts and show you the Manual D results. You may need more return duct size as that is a common problem (being undersized).

Here is a good link about undersized return ducts and a guy who paid a LOT of $$ for a high end model.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/rheem-r96v085-454034/


Google: furnace duct sizing for more info and vids


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Given some more thought and these are pretty much the facts.

- air intack (cold return) had been check by a number of HVAC tech on at least 3 occasions. I have a large air filter cage about 7-8" wide with a filter in it. They open that as well and there is NO change in noise or air flow whatsoever. One tech I have known for 30 years. Not the issue!!

These furnaces will never show up in new construction as any home builder will have put in a much cheaper furnace. It would be either someone upgrading to a higher efficiency or replacing and old low or mid efficiency furnace. Hence you are having adapted to the existing ducts as mine was. New return from the air box out and up to the horizontal old returns feed. Output adapted similarly as knowone is every likely to replace the basement full run. Anyone could end up having the same problem after speeding all this premium money. Taking a chance was not my intention nor should it be anyone elses. NO RECOMMENDATION FROM ME ON THIS LINE as there are so many to choose from

I had quotes from 4 companies and not one ever indicated a change or an issue with their furnace proposals. Not one and all established companies.

That video did not even sound like the blower kicked in. I have dragon up to that in the basement and out the ducts is where I am complain about the noise since it cannot be ignored. 

Customer Service at Napoleon is horrible. As its almost 3 weeks and they haven't got back to me and my contracted was not contacted as they said they would do. So what is a person suppose to do. IMO its a small furnace and should be quieter than a 100k or 80K as my original was. I don't care where they put the blower in the design they need to engineer it to be "Whisper Quiet" as they advertise but its quite the opposite. Very noisy!! and thats saying it nicely. There were days i feel like shoot it to put it out of its misery. Silenced forever that way. But I have no rifles anymore. It got lucky after many sleepless nights.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Please post a video and/or pictures of the installation. 
The factory only builds the furnace. They have no input on how it's installed. On the commissioning report you should have gotten at startup, what's it list as far as static pressure and CFM?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Please post a video and/or pictures of the installation.




probably the 10th request, venting and bashing seem to be the point of this thread


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Tripple said:


> ...
> 
> These furnaces will never show up in new construction as any home builder will have put in a much cheaper furnace. ....


You're assuming that new builds are only sub-divisions. If you wanted perfect hvac, you needed to have a designer work a custom design out for you. 

30 years usually means they are good, but not always. Sometimes they are graduated at the bottom of their class. 


Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Napoleon is a VERY old well respected fireplace company and they are getting into the Canadian furnace market and are building a decent furnace from what I see. They will also sell it in North Dakota and the border States I imagine.

They are not a stupid company that will ruin 30 yrs of their reputation to make a quick buck on furnaces. Makes absolutely no sense. 

Now Junkitrol and Gooodmen and ICP used to do a lot of that for the builders market but even they have gotten away from that ( mostly ).

Rheem/WeatherKing has a nice builders unit that is the same as the aftermarket except it has a shorter warranty which makes sense as you get a 1 yr warranty on a new house or condo anyway.

IMO our OP is not used to the new sound of a modern furnace and comparing it to a heavy old Olsen low boy is no comparison or fair. The cfms are probably 25% higher now and the sound of the fan with tighter blade spacing and curves is different.

Not much you can do about it. However w/o being there I cannot be sure.

Times change/people change, hairstyles change, you got to go with the flow.:smile:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

yuri said:


> Napoleon is a VERY old well respected fireplace company and they are getting into the Canadian furnace market and are building a decent furnace from what I see. They will also sell it in North Dakota and the border States I imagine.
> 
> They are not a stupid company that will ruin 30 yrs of their reputation to make a quick buck on furnaces. Makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> ...


There very well could be a problem.... But without the recording that we've asked for several times, we can't be sure either way. I totally agree, that they make completely different sounds, and it's an adjustment. Generally the actual db level drops significantly though on those premium grade units. 

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I kinda doubt you can make a very good recording with a camera phone, in case it is a whine. 

I am just saying that making sure the ducts are sized properly etc is important and mostly for future readers also, not just the OP.

Also to defend Napoleon. My only concern is where do you get parts. Bad enough Brand L and C etc are going with lean stocking and I am sure you know the challenges.

If Napoleon has a good parts network they could be VERY successful in Canada. Especially when we can buy with our own loonie/dollars vs US.

Olsen and Clare ( Clare Hecla from the oil days ) did very well and were Canadian.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

yuri said:


> I kinda doubt you can make a very good recording with a camera phone, in case it is a whine.
> 
> I am just saying that making sure the ducts are sized properly etc is important and mostly for future readers also, not just the OP.
> 
> ...


Whines, various air noises and whistles, rattles, banging.... It would give us a direction....... 

Yeah, most phones aren't good and none are great, but there are other options too. Again, it's more for direction then just plain guessing. 

I hate when the first cold snap or heat wave comes along and they only have 2 heat exchangers or compressors / model for the whole greater city area.... Then I get to tell some of my customers... "yes, we did quote you on that weeks ago, but since you waited until now, it's 6-8 weeks delivery, don't worry that it's -25*C."

Cheers!


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

FYI - Update
Contractor was having Napoleon call me after in depth discussion since they engineered this noisy 9700 furnace. It was expected to hear in a day or two however. Even after a full week they haven't called me (attempted at all). Extremely poor customer solutions service when they phone is too much for them to handle. Contractor is now escalating it further and I expect they'll tear it out and I go with a different brand. It will be good riddance of the Napoleon. Unbelievable experience which friends cannot believe my bad luck and many have heard first hand.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

A lot of very big companies have a " No Lemons, 100% Satisfaction Guarantee" for the 1st month or some period from install. Mine does.

We install 1000+ furnaces a year and we get about 5 per year we take out because the customer does not like the sound or feels it does not heat fast enough etc. Or has "Whisper Quiet" expectations which is just advertising most brands use and in the real world is impossible.

The only true extremely quiet furnace is a Lennox SLP modulating or a Rheem mod or a few other brands but they are very expensive.

If we sell 1000 furnaces and take out 5 and resell them to employees or someone else we don't really lose much as the profits are high enough on the other 995 that it does not matter. Just part of the business IMO.

Hopefully they take care of you.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> FYI - Update
> Contractor was having Napoleon call me after in depth discussion since they engineered this noisy 9700 furnace. It was expected to hear in a day or two however. Even after a full week they haven't called me (attempted at all). Extremely poor customer solutions service when they phone is too much for them to handle. Contractor is now escalating it further and I expect they'll tear it out and I go with a different brand. It will be good riddance of the Napoleon. Unbelievable experience which friends cannot believe my bad luck and many have heard first hand.


Read this entire thread again.

If you have a noise problem with a 2-stage/variable speed furnace it's not due to bad engineering, it's due to either a defect like a vent motor with bad bearings or due to the size of your air ducts compared to what it needs to move.

When you say "poorly engineered" you're speaking as if a furnace or air handler is a perfectly engineered, self contained system in itself like a fridge where you buy it, plug it in and connect the ice maker.

A furnace is more like an "engine" in a car and doing furnace replacement is more like replacing an engine with a new after-market one in a old car and leaving the body, transmission and tires.

The new engine could have a different horse-power rating, different torque, be designed to run at different RPM/torque levels than the transmission allows. 

The new engine could be perfectly good but may not be a good match for the rest of the car. *And then when it doesn't work properly, is noisy, stalls, etc what you're doing is similar to having the car owner blame the engine manufacturer rather than the mechanic who may have put it in but failed to make sure it's a good match and properly tuned.*

Yes, you should see if you can get a manufacture's rep or something to deal with the install, especially if a napoleon dealer did the work.

The obvious things need to be ruled out - duct static pressure, temperature rise and fuel input should be checked and corrected if need by. If the static pressure is high, it will be noisy on undersized ducts.

Further, new furnaces need as much as 50% more airflow than old <80% afue models.

Also, they have to size based on output BTUs rather than input, and if your dealer put a furnace with the same input as the old one it could require 70%+ more air than the old one.

If the problem is air noise, it may be possible to cut the fan speed but keep it within rated airflow range.



re: defects, ECM motors are dead quiet when working right - you can't hear motor noise, only air movement. The vent motor won't be perfectly quiet but the noise should be muffled if your unit takes it's combustion air from outside.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Blower and motor were replaced and a little better. They believe it wasn't well balanced or running right. But static pressure is YES too high on the input to the Napoleon certified A coil. They cannot just change it as its matched to the New AC unit. Napoleon is not getting involved in resolving that YET. But the furnace noise is there run down to the slowest startup speed and finishing speed the blower can be heard. I can even hear it turn on and ventor motor kick in. I have the sound resonating in my brain for far too many weeks of disturbed sleep. There is no speed the blower cannot be easily heard running!!! NONE Its gone when it totally off only. Crappy A coil yet IMO as well but they have to sign off on it according to the authorized dealer and specify a replacement one.

Its all in their court. Cell phone doesn't have the ears to record wide frequency sounds. I know someone who put in a new Goodman ECM dual stage and I cannot hear it even straining to. In the basement it purrs so quiet. I have dragon roaring. If it were all gone and another OEM put in I bet it would be radically different. Some vent have so little air now it a massive reduction. 

I might end up hanging by chains by the side of the road skewered with a rebar through it core and weld the chains so it can be removed for all to see. Great Looking JUNK!!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

High static pressure is not caused by the furnace.

If the pressure drop through the coil is too high for the amount of air the furnace needs to move, your contractor selected the wrong coil. Manufacturers make many different coils, at different widths and sizes and it's the contractor's job to get the right match for the application. 

A single size of an a/c can be matched with different coils.

If you're in a cold climate and have a medium to larger size furnace with a 1.5 or 2 ton a/c and the smallest coil which matches, it's possible that the coil is producing too high of a pressure drop at the cfm the furnace needs to move.

If the static pressure is high as a whole, it's not necessarily the coil that's the wrong match.

The pressure measured upstream of the coil, right after the furnace indicates the total static pressure on the supply side.

If it's high, like 0.5" for example, it could be that the coil is fine and is only contributing 0.2" towards that and the 0.3" is due to air ducts, the coil isn't the problem.

*There's return static as well, and if you add them together, like 0.5" supply and 0.4" return including filter, you get the total. 

To be clear, it's normal to hear the vent motor and to notice blower operation especially if the duct pressure is high.

The higher the static pressure is, the faster the fan will have to run to deliver proper airflow.

Any brand, including goodman with a variable speed ecm motor will behave the same way.

You obviously came here to complain, repeatedly bash a manufacturer and not for help resolving the issue. What complaining to random people on the 'net (who have nothing to do with the manufacturer or your contractor) will accomplish, I'm not quite sure.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Please take pictures of the furnace and surrounding duct.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

It sounds like there's a blockage on your coil. Has anyone looked on the bottom of it? 

Ecm is ramping up to compensate...... But you still have little airflow. It's that or something else is blocked. (someone forget to cutout the return air? Lol) 

Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> ....
> You obviously came here to complain, repeatedly bash a manufacturer and not for help resolving the issue. What complaining to random people on the 'net (who have nothing to do with the manufacturer or your contractor) will accomplish, I'm not quite sure.


Indeed, I'm about to give up. This is why we try to avoid residential stuff. The customers aren't worth the headache sometimes...... 

I understand the frustration, sure. You pay lots of money and have so little knowledge about the whole thing that you feel helpless. Contactors like most business have grown callous, and are often very strong in their defense. (admitting a fault is the worst thing that they can do unfortunately, so they avoid it like the plague.) I can see the emotion of some of these people, they just want things to work..... But seem to be unwilling to back down from that ultra aggressive stance. I've sold products 2x because of this behavior during a different career. (returns desk at a retailer.) 

IMHO, it's the wrong way to get help from them. Personally, I'm willing to go much further for those who are understanding that things don't always go right, and are flexible. For the OP, I'd rather just rip it out, and resell it. I'd be confident enough that it's the ductwork and not the unit, so any other unit will do the same thing. I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over it. 

I really do hope that the OP is just stressed out, and really is being reasonable with the contractor. Either way, I don't see this thread going much further. 

PS. A week turn around from an OEM on a complicated problem is quick, I'm surprised they called at all. 


Cheers!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

roughneck said:


> Please take pictures of the furnace and surrounding duct.


Bump bump bump


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

My coworker is looking for a cheap second hand furnace. He'll trade you for a Trane with ECM. Ontario is the market. 

😊

Cheers!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

roughneck said:


> Please take pictures of the furnace and surrounding duct.


Still waiting.......


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

he's gone. just wanted to complain and blame the manufacturer.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not very successfully.

Probably a undersized ductwork problem.

The ECM will ramp up a LOT and get louder. His old 4 speed PSC would just groan and get hot and not speed up or change sound.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

user_12345a said:


> he's gone. just wanted to complain and blame the manufacturer.


Yeah I know. I've asked for pictures of the install all throughout this thread and all were ignored. 
He blames the manufacturer. But like 99% of other problems it's install related.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, probably short of return air.

The AC coil most brands have three sizes/widths. Lennox has a A, B and C coil and some are higher and wider and you can choose one to fit and get the proper resistance. 

With these new 33" high furnaces there should be no headroom problems and if it needs to be wider then you just make the plenum wider and taper it in and out.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

The vision I have in my head, since the OP refuses to post pictures, is either a flex monster or a central return directly under the unit. 
Poor furnace probably never had a chance. The OP wants everyone to feel bad for him. I feel bad for the furnace.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, normally we shut down/ignore bashing posts quick but for educational purposes ( and I wanted to help him ) future readers may learn about ductwork problems being the cause not the furnace.

However it is up to the contractor to size them properly and/or suggest improvements.

Napoleon is a very old school company that builds excellent heavy duty fireplaces and is not in it for a quick buck. They sense a potential Canadian market as our Canadian brands got bought by ICG then ICP and Lennox stopped making them in Canada etc etc.

Hard to compete against Goodman for price and hopefully Napoleon does well with them.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Maybe he is a employee for a competitor.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Quick Update

I bit the dust and gave them a blank cheque to redo the duct system. The portion where 12 of the 15 take offs connect which is all but two rooms at the far end of straight section service w/2 take off in one room and one to another.

Now sized and new plenum (curverd take off so know turbulence).

*Noise is Exactly the Same !!!*

This should never happen but I finally talked to Napoleon and the contractor says we've both bent over backwards to resolve this. I am paying for the newly installed ducts and labour. 

What can I say other than *DON'T BUY NAPOLEON !!! *It's not worth the aggravation going through all this and *YES I DO WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO READ THIS*.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Please post pictures of the install along with a copy of the commissioning sheet with static pressure readings.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

roughneck said:


> Please post pictures of the install along with a copy of the commissioning sheet with static pressure readings.


I have nor get commissioning sheets. Everything is redone and new except for the 9700 furnace and the Napoleon specified A coil for their AC.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Then please post pictures of the install. First red flag is not getting a commissioning sheet. How long did the technician spend on setup and adjustment?


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Ok Here are a few key photos. 
I AM AN END USER !!! i WISH IT WASN'T SO. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS NOISE CAN AFFECT YOUR SLEEP. ITS REAL AS RAIN.

I told everyone its not my ducts but still went ahead with the upgrade. Now its 100% in Napoleon's court we're all exhausted and stressed by it all.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

roughneck said:


> Then please post pictures of the install. First red flag is not getting a commissioning sheet. How long did the technician spend on setup and adjustment?


More than an Hour and again later. That is not the problem. Why one is an also an HVAC family member. The other is the contractor senior HVAC tech. They are doing everything its very bad for them its happening to me as I am related to the other tech working for them!! A very bad situation that does not seem to have a resolution.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Well I see others have since read this now and I am happy they don't see this as a Farce. Its real without question. 

Being retired I should be doing something else. Its a winter without snow so that rules out sledding etc.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Is the furnace sitting on thick rubber pads?

All our high end Lennox units come with these pads or something similar.

Do the plastic vent pipes hang or are they jammed up tight against the floor? They should be hanging and free floating. If not, sound can transmit thru them.

Your heating duct should be 1" away from the floor joists and not tight against them. The return can be.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

They aren't on rubber or plastic. Just set off the floor on concrete pad in case of water problem. I asked about it when it was being installed and was told its not required for it.

Ducts are hanging as are the take offs. The blower noise is audible even at the very lowest speeds. I indicated this way back. Short of pulling out the new A coil everything has been eliminated at great time and expense. I asked about that when the reduction was started. They said that the coil was specifical picked by Napoleon and they weren't changing it for that reason. They matched it to the system and their Seer 16 unit. 

Its up to Napoleon now! 

I am done throwing more money into this so is the contractor. Draw a circle around the furnace and that's where the problem is somewhere/somehow but its the source/cause. If they want anything else altered etc then its will be on Napoleon's dollar. Knowone elses now.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> I told everyone its not my ducts but still went ahead with the upgrade. Now its 100% in Napoleon's court we're all exhausted and stressed by it all.


Which ducts were changed?

No one explicitly said it's the ducts. 

The idea was to get static pressure testing done to determine if the ductwork is problematic. *If you would have insisted on a static pressure test, and it came back perfect, like 0.5", you would have known it's not the ducts.

Now, if you got a pressure test done showing 1"+, it would show the need for trying to reduce fan speed and need to do an analysis of the duct system to see what the bottlenecks are.



Without proper diagnostics using the proper tools, you end up wasting a lot of money doing things that don't need to be done.

The shot-gun approach to repairs is terrible; always test/verify before doing a repair.

Can undersized ducts cause noise issues on ecm motors? oh yah! and anyone who has a theoretical understanding of how these motors function will tell you that.*


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

The drain isn't supposed to connected like that. It causes problems with the furnace condensate draining. 

With all this work, did anyone check between the coil and the furnace? 

There's probably volume dampers in each duct. You can reach them by taking off the registers and sticking your hand inside. (1-2ft from the end) Make sure that they are all open. 

Cheers!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

The evaporator is really close to that 90* fitting, the install guide should be checked as many manufacturers have a minimum distance measurement for that area in order to reduce air turbulence within the duct. The unit should also be sitting on a pad rather then blocks. 
To continue we will need static pressure measurements. 
I see a 1" pleated filter. Is that what's being used in the filter box?


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

roughneck said:


> The evaporator is really close to that 90* fitting, the install guide should be checked as many manufacturers have a minimum distance measurement for that area in order to reduce air turbulence within the duct. The unit should also be sitting on a pad rather then blocks.
> To continue we will need static pressure measurements.
> I see a 1" pleated filter. Is that what's being used in the filter box?


That's fairly normal for this kind of installation. They usually use an insulated plenum with a PTO instead. Not sure how much of that is insulated. 

Cheers!


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

The box is 5" but actually takes a 4.5" filter. The 1" can be used as well and was used for a while until the bigger filter was available and swapped. It was used in testing as well a few time as well, also without anything in the filter box to see if there were any changes long before I agreed to upgrade the main plenum as seen in one of the photos, shiney all the way to the also newly replace curved take off plenum sitting well above the furnace. The top of the high efficiency A coil (has TX valve design mandatory for the Seer 16 external AC) is below the curve.

No installation knowone has insulated duct in Ontario. Never seen it done even in new houses.

We've proved that the abnormal noise is 100% from the Napoleon specified configuration (they specified to use that A-coil) and the Ultimate 9700 is a Noisy Howler !!! 
I had some other contractor for other reason and mentioned this furnace and the had a listen. Yeap they shook their head, noisy for sure.

Anyone I talk to and friends associates will never buy a Napoleon after seeing and hearing my horror story. A number are looking to upgrade theirs and likely be Daykin or Goodman


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Insanity is repeating the same action, only to expect a different result. In a way I'm just as bad because I'm giving the same advice and expecting you to clue in.

Changing the plenum in itself will not have much of an impact. Is that what you meant by re-doing ducts?

If you want to fix this, like I said before, you pretty much need to insist on a static pressure test on each portion of the system.

The return before the filter, after the filter, before the coil, after the coil.

This testing would definitively tell you not only if the coil, filter and ducts are the problem, but which part in particular is causing the problem. *If the static is normal, you can go on and blame napolean for making a bad product.

The coil, BTW? You're blaming the coil when a pressure drop test across it hasn't even been done. The coil could be fine.

Manufacturers make many different coils with different pressure drops at different airflow. The contractor has to do the due diligence and make sure the pressure drop is reasonable for the system.

There's something called *available static pressure* which is the max pressure the furnace can work against and still deliver proper airflow without stressing the blower motor in your case. The *contractor has to make the call as to which components are okay for the system.

It's really funny to say goodman or daikin would be quieter; this manufacturer makes low end to mid-grade units with pretty thin metal. Nothing against goodman stuff, but your napolean is probably better built with thicker metal and more sound insulation.

And they use the same ecm motors as the others and they're known to be dead quiet if the duct pressure is okay.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

We wouldn't install non-insulated plenums. When the ductwork curves nicely, it would be insulated for at least 5ft. (insulation is on the inside) 

PS. I work in Ontario.... 

Cheers!


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Finally acknowledged by Napoleon and this Ultimate (in name only) 9700 is going out. My contractor is getting a refund etc. Now I will move into a mainstream premium model of gas furnace. I seems even noisier now and other have commented on that point as well. Well its spring but still heating is needed. I'll be glad to see the backside of this furnace.

I can say without a doubt their customer service is extremely bad and if you do reach someone they have not clue how to handle a problem or what to do even though the problem has been before them for weeks and months. Maybe because they are in the snow country in Barrie, ON I don't know nor care at this point as knowone I know will deal with their product that I can assure you. Its not worth the risk when there are plenty of other Manufacturers to look at!!!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Tripple said:


> Finally acknowledged by Napoleon and this Ultimate (in name only) 9700 is going out. My contractor is getting a refund etc. !!!


This is a DIY forum, not a bashing forum. Good luck. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

it'll be funny if after replacing it with another ecm furnace you have the same complaints.

i'm still sure this problem was caused by your contractor not making sure the ducts can move the airflow needed for the capacity you had installed.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

user_12345a said:


> it'll be funny if after replacing it with another ecm furnace you have the same complaints.
> 
> i'm still sure this problem was caused by your contractor not making sure the ducts can move the airflow needed for the capacity you had installed.


The contractor says its the furnace as well. i tell you what !!

I'll let you know the results

PS Knowone has insulated ductwork here in Ontario. Old or new homes and this contractor also does a lot of new home developments end to end installations. They are all done to code.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Tripple said:


> PS Knowone has insulated ductwork here in Ontario. ....


It's done all the time. More so on larger units, but every plenum we put in is insulated. (My ancient heat pump was also insulated, that was done before my time.) 

Builders and their contractors always cheap out on just about everything. I haven't seen any that buck that trend. Custom homes are a different beast, so they are completely different. 

We'll be waiting for the results. I'm actually interested. 


Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

i live in ontario as well and insulated ductwork in residential is rare.

they don't need to be insulated when they're in the conditioned space going through interior walls. it's a waste of time and money.

the heat lost stays in the house.

sealing is a good idea though, improves distribution.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> i live in ontario as well and insulated ductwork in residential is rare.
> 
> they don't need to be insulated when they're in the conditioned space going through interior walls. it's a waste of time and money.
> 
> ...


The plenum is insulated for noise, not for heat transfer. The rest is bare. 

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Looked at the duct video but not calculator.

Question if I may as 12 of my 15 heat outputs are on a newly installed 10 x20 inch horizontal duct approx 20 ft long as can be seen in the photo. Is this sufficient for an ECM variable speed motor to address 80,000 BTU source. I see only about 257 CFM more on the chart for the two identical furnaces which are 60 & 80k btu's No reason why it cannot be handled easily as I don't want too small a furnace (60k BTU)

The physical dimensions are the same. EG DM96VC0803BNA


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

60 000 btu/hr at 96% is not a small furnace by any means. 

80k is large and should only be used in larger homes or poorly insulated homes in most of ontario.

What people don't get is that the 80000 btu 96% replaces 100 to 110k conventional, has the same heating capacity and needs even more airflow. (The old one may be running at a 70+ temperature rise vs 40 to 60f of a new one.)

They can see the input and see that it's not a lot based on experience, not considering that the old unit sent 20-30% of the heat up the stack when warmed up and running.

not sure where you are in ontario but if it's southern i know that size furnace is used in 3000 to 3500 sq ft 2-story detached houses built in the 1980s and early 90s. 

20x10" sound ok for 60000, but too small for 80 000 btu. the 80000 btu units move in excess of 1200 cfm on high, could easily be 1300 to 1400. 60000 btu is more 900 to 1100 cfm.

Your 15 heat runs may be okay if some of them are 6".

with undersized ducts, the fan runs at a higher speed and makes more noise.

trick is to keep the machine running on low, and ideally a 2-stage thermostat is used. That way, it only runs on high when it really needs to, no 12 minute or less delay BS.

play with the numbers here -> http://efficientcomfort.net/asp/ResDuct_Web/ResDuct_Web.asp

bigger is not better. the whole point of the 2-stage unit is to get long cycles - you're paying a premium for that, and if it's oversized, it's no better than a properly sized single stage.

the ecm motor also doesn't save anything if u put a oversized furnace for the house and ducts.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Although the winter has had less than a week of very cold winter temps. I have seen the 1st stage barely able to reach the cutoff point where the thermostat turns off the furnace. It kicked back in shortly afterwards. House is century home core (>100 years old) with additions added around hence heat loss has been limited over the years in improvements made, air loss is still far above a modern home. Very high winds and rain lash the building regularly as is today.

Back to the differences as I have attached to charts from the furnace OEM manual. Looking at B -Normal in both sizes the difference in CFM needed to attain the heat rise spec is 275 cfm more for an 80k (House had a 105k input btu with 80 at least output rating). Now 275 cfm is not a lot also the spec code for the blower is a 3 ton or 1200 CFM blower build in when looking as the model code which is designated by the "3" of the 803 or 603 portions you see at the chart top. These are Daikin models FYI Goodman, Amana similarities.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

how large is house and are the exterior walls insulated? where are you located?

The furnace imo only should be sized so that on high it can maintain setting a little below design temperature.

Low fire should stop being able to keep up in very cold weather, with high fire cycling on and off controlled by t-stat.

That's the ideal way to take advantage of 2-stage. it results is the least noise and the best comfort.

The cfm ratings reflect the difference in output - 1300 cfm is much more than 1000 cfm.

The ducts were probably sized right for the old 105k furnace which probably had a 70f+ temperature rise.

...and I'm sure the house improved since the old unit was put in.

So 60k may well be the right size and it would make sense to do a load calculation to see. rather than putting the same size to not get complaints.

2-stage should be sized the same way as single stage; if there's a fear of too long cycles on your and the contractor's part, get a single stage unit.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Ok fellows and Future Furnace Buyers. I am closing this thread as I have my situation resolved now. Work completed in June 2017 as follows.

- Napoleon 9700 Furnace Removed
- Dakin DM96VC 60k BTU installed and coupled to the ducting in place
- Tech set stage 1 & 2 to Dakiin gas pressure to spec's with factory set blower setting left as configured. No changes were required (unlike all the tweaking to get the Napoleon near spec's) but never achieved

It was a late and cold summer of several weeks of 10-18C and lots of rain. The furnace was called to perform, a rarity this time of year. Air flow was far superior to the the removed furnace. Also noise level had dropped significantly.

Late July and early Aug the AC was put to work and at the default blower setting it also performed very well. 

NOTE: No change was made to either the AC A-Coil or intake Air filter (4.5 x 16x25" ) which was in use through it all and still is.

*Lesson learned - Stay away from Napoleon for this reason and there customer service was useless. Napoleon never wanted to help me or the dealer and would not return calls either. Only after months of inaction removing it was the viable option!!!*

Again for those unclear. Replacing the 9700 with *DM96VC Dakin was the Fix,* period. 

I am very happy now and enjoying the upgraded HVAC system


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

thanks for following up - that's rare.

i suspect much of your noise reduction was from going from 80k to 60k.

those ecm motors are known to not do well on high static pressure.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

user_12345a said:


> thanks for following up - that's rare.
> 
> i suspect much of your noise reduction was from going from 80k to 60k.
> 
> those ecm motors are known to not do well on high static pressure.


No! The Napoleon 9700 was also a 60k BTU furnace. For whatever reason their blower (which was replaced I might add with some improvement) and furnace was quite noisy. It wasn't just me the dealer also agreed it was.

The Dakin blower spec's were different (better) and real world performance much better. If someone is looking for a new furnace the choice is clear! Which not to buy and which is highly favourable if you're ok with a more costly furnace than some others. Napoleon furnace are not cheap and their flagship 9700 was almost $500 more than the 9600 model. I did not get what I paid for and contrary to the advertisement they are NOT WHISPER QUIET !!

There is no reason for anyone to go through the xxxx I went through. As for the dealer, a lot of man hours wasted trying to resolve it as well. We both lost out and I did not get any money back either, nor did I expect to even though I had paid for the dealer 10 year labour warranty as well on it. Dakin includes 12 year warranty parts and labour.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

...then it sounds like the napoleon was defective. internally there's insulation and baffles to keep the cabinet cool and direct the air properly around the heat exchanger and if there's a problem there - like causing an obstruction, it may wreck havock.

I think that if the unit was truly that bad by design it would have been pulled from the market or napoleon would be out of the furnace business.

Goodman/amana/daikin is actually known to be lower end equipment -> i know the metal on the cabinets is really thin and wouldn't be on first choice.

plus is yours has stainless steel heat exchanger.

at least it's resolved now.


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## Tripple (Jan 16, 2017)

Napoleon only looks pretty. Looks don't count especially in he basement.
Both are/were stainless steel heat exchangers which carried the enhanced warranty. Yes...

I am aware of the other models which are all Goodman companies. My son is in the HVAC business and enlightened me long ago. Cabinet is fine and has tooless panel removal bolts for access to the settings panel. 

PS: None of the HVAC tech could set any physical problem. Napoleon decided after saying they would send some almost 2 months into the problem they wouldn't inspect it. Nor did the assist in any way hence my claim of horrible customer service. Phone reps hands were tied because the situation was not handle by any of their experts ever. Even though I was told (dealer as well) it would be. I'll never buy anything made by Napoeon even though its a Canadian Company. They don't deserve it and the dealer may cease dealing with them as well. The weren't happy with them either that is for sure.


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## Hellbent60 (7 mo ago)

yuri said:


> Napoleon is a VERY old well respected fireplace company and they are getting into the Canadian furnace market and are building a decent furnace from what I see. They will also sell it in North Dakota and the border States I imagine.
> 
> They are not a stupid company that will ruin 30 yrs of their reputation to make a quick buck on furnaces. Makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> ...


Napoleon is not "getting" into Canada, they are and have been a Canadian company from the beginning building their furnace and BBQ's in Ontario.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Hellbent60 said:


> Napoleon is not "getting" into Canada, they are and have been a Canadian company from the beginning building their furnace and BBQ's in Ontario.


This thread is long dead at nearly 5 years old. And the member you quoted is Canadian, but is no longer active here. 
Probably best to let dead threads remain dead.


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