# Self Consolidating Concrete



## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm interested in using self-consolidating concrete (SCC) in ICF forms so I don't have to worry about proper vibration and voids in the concrete. 

I can't seem to find a source for this concrete. I'll be calling LaFarge tomorrow about the local availability of its Agilia branded SCC, but I'm afraid they would have to ship from Columbus. Anyone have a source for this product in the Northeast? I know it was used on the Freedom Tower, so somebody around here makes. I think it's used in a lot of precast operations. I contacted a local Ready Mix outift, and they're going to have the owner call me back. 

If I can get my hands on some super plasticizer, do you think I could get a concrete plant to mix me up a batch?










http://www.icfmag.com/articles/features/Self_Consolidating_Concrete.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOmrWBL77w


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

That is like playing with lightning and betting on the odds. If you don't have experience don't play with it.

Vibration to get density and remove voids are always necessary, especially in small opening like you have in ICFs with rebar.

Self consolidating concrete is good for some other uses.

Dick


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Every decent-sized ready-mix plant should have experience in mixing SCC, it's not that new. At the least, they'll have plenty of Super P to work with.


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

That's good to know. I'll try calling a couple more plants.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

You may change your mind when you hear the price,you can also use a smaller coarse aggregate in regular concrete if your worried about voids.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm not sure about New Joyzee, but in Washington anybody who does DOT work will have a Pile Grout (Class 4000P) which is self-consolidating. It will already have the HRWRA (Super P for the guys on the other end of the chute) and MRWRA (mid range) in it. We got it approved for use in a wall that had some architectural prettiness in it, and if you know anything about DOT work, getting anything approved that is outside what their book says is like an act of Congress.

Any concrete plant should have HRWRA, and the drivers will usually carry some on the truck if you want to soup it up even more. NO MORE THAN A GALLON EXTRA if you want to wet it up. Depending on the mix, chemical company, and a zillion other factors, it can take off and the load will start to segregate. Even though you aren't changing the water/cement ratio when you use HRWRA, segregation is still bad (just ask the people in Montgomery, AL).


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## rustyjames (Jul 20, 2008)

If there's a Clayton concrete plant near you'll they'll be able to hook you up with something.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

having built w/icf's & used scc, i wouldn't pick it for our home which will be icf,,, clayton's a good outfit but i'd think they'd recommend reg pea stone pump mix,,, we vibrated from outside the forms - rarely inside the voids


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

Canarywood1 said:


> You may change your mind when you hear the price,you can also use a smaller coarse aggregate in regular concrete if your worried about voids.


I'm intested in the increased strength and density plus the fact that I won't have to worry as much about improper technique with the pencil vibrator.



Mort said:


> I'm not sure about New Joyzee, but in Washington anybody who does DOT work will have a Pile Grout (Class 4000P) which is self-consolidating. It will already have the HRWRA (Super P for the guys on the other end of the chute) and MRWRA (mid range) in it. We got it approved for use in a wall that had some architectural prettiness in it, and if you know anything about DOT work, getting anything approved that is outside what their book says is like an act of Congress.
> 
> Any concrete plant should have HRWRA, and the drivers will usually carry some on the truck if you want to soup it up even more. NO MORE THAN A GALLON EXTRA if you want to wet it up. Depending on the mix, chemical company, and a zillion other factors, it can take off and the load will start to segregate. Even though you aren't changing the water/cement ratio when you use HRWRA, segregation is still bad (just ask the people in Montgomery, AL).


Thanks for the anecdote. I'll keep an eye out for segregation if we go this route.



rustyjames said:


> If there's a Clayton concrete plant near you'll they'll be able to hook you up with something.


I did find a ready-mix plant that was big enough to know what I was talking about. I'll try to locate a Clayton plant, as well. Thanks!



itsreallyconc said:


> having built w/icf's & used scc, i wouldn't pick it for our home which will be icf,,, clayton's a good outfit but i'd think they'd recommend reg pea stone pump mix,,, we vibrated from outside the forms - rarely inside the voids


I'm hesitant to vibrate from the outside given what I saw in this study: http://www.icfmag.com/documents/PCA_Consolidation_Report.pdf

Granted, you may have used a different technique. Why wouldn't you want to use the SCC? Form pressure? Leaks? 

I also wanted to use it for the slab because it seems a lot more fun to finish than a high-slump mix. I feel like I could eliminate some labor if I use SCC and I can have the certainty of no voids. What would you do to avoid a blowout? I notice in the study above that they had blowouts with an 8 foot lift. I know the Europeans are using SCC in ICFs, but I can't find much about technique and specific mixes.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Having poured many basements walls years ago, I've seen my share of form blow-outs. Sometimes 1/2 yard, sometimes half a truck. 

I've also helped on a few ICF pours over the last few years. It's a slow steady pour, that's for sure. I honestly can't imagine what a blowout on an ICF wall filled with SCC would look like, but I'm guessing it's pretty similar to Hell.............


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> Having poured many basements walls years ago, I've seen my share of form blow-outs. Sometimes 1/2 yard, sometimes half a truck.
> 
> I've also helped on a few ICF pours over the last few years. It's a slow steady pour, that's for sure. I honestly can't imagine what a blowout on an ICF wall filled with SCC would look like, but I'm guessing it's pretty similar to Hell.............


Just get started on the slab a little early :laughing:


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## dusty247 (Feb 3, 2014)

Pouring a wall it is best to come up in stages, 2" at a time. If your not using a pump truck and just pouring right from the transit mixer it can take a little more time to unload a truck. Having enough help you can unload 2 trucks at a time as long as can get any ware on the wall with the trucks chutes. If not it is best to use a pump truck. 
Call a reputable concrete supplier in your that can hook you up with the right mix design that you are looking for and can handle your project. You don't want to be waiting for your concrete. 
Also you don't want to put the plasticizer in until 5 min. before you unload that way you get the full time for the chemical to work for you. Being set up the right way will make the job easy. Also if the concrete is at a 4" slump and the right amount of chemical is used it should come out of the truck at a 7 to 8 in slump.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

said i wasn't a fan of scc in icf's & here's why:

http://www.icfmag.com/articles/features/Self_Consolidating_Concrete.html - paragraph 7 is most relevant im-n-s-h-fo

dusty, ' 2" ' OR 2' - would NEVER never think of placing conc w/o a boom pump,,, our last job had 14' high walls but not a problem w/anything,,, then again, building w/icf's isn't a diy project,,, just having the equipment's expensive ( wall braces ), elephant trunk, reducer, etc

as dusty said, make SURE your plant's got trucks avail,,, pumps are expensive 'specially when you have to clean 'em out then recharge 'em when the next truck shows up,,, cold joints aren't much of an issue in icf's but be aware of the possibility


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## dusty247 (Feb 3, 2014)

*pour wall*

2" :no: would be real hard to do I did mean 2' typing error Thank you for looking it over.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

2 inch lifts? Sounds like something CH2MHill would come up with.


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