# Foam VS Fiberglass insulation



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

RTC_wa said:


> Foam is way to costly and not worth it. or do you have a bunch left over from another job? Just put batts in the wall way cheaper and no VOC's



tcleve has been on here for quite a while and has always demonstrated that he is a consummate professional.


Foam is 100% worth it if used in the right application. There are situations where it is 10X as effective as batt insulation and the fact that it is an air barrier whereas batts (most often poorly installed) are not makes it a great choice in some cases.

I would submit that tcleve can do much of the same with proper air sealing and high density batts but claiming that someone is trying to "rip someone off" if not appropriate in this case.


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> tcleve has been on here for quite a while and has always demonstrated that he is a consummate professional.
> 
> 
> Foam is 100% worth it if used in the right application. There are situations where it is 10X as effective as batt insulation and the fact that it is an air barrier whereas batts (most often poorly installed) are not makes it a great choice in some cases.
> ...


Just FYI R factor is R factor air inflitration has zero to do with it as per 16 CFR part 460 set forth by the FTC R factor is R factor. and as for ripping people off spray foam at 4.00 per square foot VS HD Fiberglass batts at .52 cents per square foot compairing R factor to R factor I would go with Fiberglass and as for air inflitration you seal the penetrations you have a whole house envleope no insulation no matter what it is by itself is going to stop air movement.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

RTC_wa said:


> Just FYI R factor is R factor air inflitration has zero to do with it as per 16 CFR part 460 set forth by the FTC R factor is R factor. and as for ripping people off spray foam at 4.00 per square foot VS HD Fiberglass batts at .52 cents per square foot compairing R factor to R factor I would go with Fiberglass and as for air inflitration you seal the penetrations you have a whole house envleope no insulation no matter what it is by itself is going to stop air movement.


Foam insulation does seal a house. Expanding spray foam is commonly used for sealing homes.


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Foam insulation does seal a house. Expanding spray foam is commonly used for sealing homes.


just to let you know take a 1,000 sqf home and insulate it walls and attic that would be roughly 3,000 sqf @ 4.00 per sq for insulation foam comes to a grand total of 12,000 dollars VS 3,000sf x .52 cents = 1,560. also you have to remember The IBC requires a air membrain like tyvex and the siding has to be caulked and the windows have to be air tight and the penetrations made from the electrical and plumbers and the HVAC trades need to be sealed up too not just the stud bays. will ensure and well sealed home. Foam is not cost effective R Value for the price you pay for it. A Bibbs system whither it be fiberglass or dense pack cellulose R value to R value per cost is way more cost effective then foam.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

RTC_wa said:


> just to let you know take a 1,000 sqf home and insulate it walls and attic that would be roughly 3,000 sqf @ 4.00 per sq for insulation foam comes to a grand total of 12,000 dollars VS 3,000sf x .52 cents = 1,560. also you have to remember The IBC requires a air membrain like tyvex and the siding has to be caulked and the windows have to be air tight and the penetrations made from the electrical and plumbers and the HVAC trades need to be sealed up too not just the stud bays. will ensure and well sealed home. Foam is not cost effective R Value for the price you pay for it. A Bibbs system whither it be fiberglass or dense pack cellulose R value to R value per cost is way more cost effective then foam.


Cellulose is close, but not as effective as foam for sealing.

When an attic is made as part of the conditioned space. Foam is far more effective then fiberglass batts.


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## bcgfdc3 (Jan 28, 2012)

RTC_wa said:


> just to let you know take a 1,000 sqf home and insulate it walls and attic that would be roughly 3,000 sqf @ 4.00 per sq for insulation foam comes to a grand total of 12,000 dollars VS 3,000sf x .52 cents = 1,560. also you have to remember The IBC requires a air membrain like tyvex and the siding has to be caulked and the windows have to be air tight and the penetrations made from the electrical and plumbers and the HVAC trades need to be sealed up too not just the stud bays. will ensure and well sealed home. Foam is not cost effective R Value for the price you pay for it. A Bibbs system whither it be fiberglass or dense pack cellulose R value to R value per cost is way more cost effective then foam.


But what about the labor cost of someone going around and sealing all those penetrations vs someone just walking through spraying foam everywhere. and trimming it up later. seems like a huge time saver for spray foam but not sure it completely offsets the pricing difference.


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

bcgfdc3 said:


> But what about the labor cost of someone going around and sealing all those penetrations vs someone just walking through spraying foam everywhere. and trimming it up later. seems like a huge time saver for spray foam but not sure it completely offsets the pricing difference.


Um my friend who is a contractor build homes for a living has been on fine home building. just got done with 4,000 sqf home insulation was all Fiberglass cost under 3 grand a pressure air test for air inflitartion was less then 6 sq inches for the whole house. You want to do foam be my guest one inch of foam is R 13 the code for most attics is R-48 a and to do the walls to R-21 the cost is over 20,000 dollars do the math match the cost of R value to R value and caulk is cheap and a small can of good stuff will take care of the holes.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

RTC_wa said:


> Um my friend who is a contractor build homes for a living has been on fine home building. just got done with 4,000 sqf home insulation was all Fiberglass cost under 3 grand a pressure air test for air inflitartion was less then 6 sq inches for the whole house. You want to do foam be my guest one inch of foam is R 13 the code for most attics is R-48 a and to do the walls to R-21 the cost is over 20,000 dollars do the math match the cost of R value to R value and caulk is cheap and a small can of good stuff will take care of the holes.


Your friend's recently completed home tested out at 60 cfm on the blower door at 50 Pascals?

That would be amazing if it did but highly unlikely.

I don't think that anyone that proposes foam is "ripping people off".

As noted earlier, there are some applications that foam is uniquely qualified for and the duplication of the effectiveness in batt and rigid insulation is cost prohibitive on a labor standpoint.

Ex. If you have a home that is already framed and under roof, insulating a vaulted ceiling in a sealed capacity is very difficult and time consuming.


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> Your friend's recently completed home tested out at 60 cfm on the blower door at 50 Pascals?
> 
> That would be amazing if it did but highly unlikely..


Gee lets look at the IBC must have house wrap to that helps seal the sheathing, the siding helps seal it the windows must be air tight, the top plates must be sealed the bottom plates sealed the out let boxes sealed all penetrations must be sealed, Caulk is cheap and it is easy to do. it is not rocket science. his insulation subs used the KISS from Knauf eveything sealed insulated and passed. might want to understand his homes are on display and reviewed by a lot of Green energy people in the Northwest. so it can be done and it can be done with 100% fiberglass insulation at a great saving in time labor and matirials. In all fairness he has also done homes with dense pack celulose and got the same results too with about the same amout of savings. It is the prep work that needs to be done first the right time. Becase when can some one go back and fix it after the whole thing is done.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Where did I say that it can't be done with fiberglass or batt insulation?

You number of 6 square inches is still unlikely despite the air sealing measures. Passivhaus homes leak more air than that and 6 square inches is about 60 cfm at 50 Pascals on the blower door.

You will get more than enough leakage from sealed windows and doors to get that number.

Nobody is arguing that you can get a tight home with batts, however, claiming that someone is "ripping someone off" by spraying foam is just as incorrect.

Foam, in certain applications, is the easiest and best solution. Would I use it in the walls of my home, no. I would prefer a rigid foam exterior with detailed seams and sealing. 

I would prefer to use wet spray cellulose or roxul as fiberglass is the least impressive of the widely available batt insulations.

I don't read any of your post specifying HD fiberglass batts. Do you prefer those over standard fiberglass?


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> Where did I say that it can't be done with fiberglass or batt insulation?
> 
> You number of 6 square inches is still unlikely despite the air sealing measures. Passivhaus homes leak more air than that and 6 square inches is about 60 cfm at 50 Pascals on the blower door.
> 
> ...


 I look at this way foam closed cell or open cell foam is at a cost of 4.00 per sqaure foot cellulose is around .75 cents per square foot Fiberglass is around .52 cents per square foot and to equate R value to Air Infiltration is like comparing Coconuts to Apples. R value is R Value and any contractor should show the information sheet to let the coustomer know how much it is going to cost. Could I have worded it better to the OP? Yes cost VS R value and how long it takes to recoup the cost if not explained to the costomer is a form of being ripped off maybe not on purpose but not a thing in the best interest of the consumer. when a insulation company gave me a bid for my new home being built and it was foam 70,000 dollars that was more then all the lumber siding and roofing combined. Know what they told me but it is green and it seals your home so good. it would take me 150 years to recoup the cost. I went with with sub that did it for less then 2,000 dollars and that was insulation of all the walls inside walls out side walls R-21 attic R 49 sub floor space R-30 and my garage walls and ceiling. R value to R value is what to compair to Not R value to air inflitration. Does foam work to seal the house yes. a case or two of Good stuff low expation foam on the seams of the stud cavitys would work just fine.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

The problem with this argument is comparing foam to any other insulation is not comparing apples to apples. It kind of stands alone in the fact that is airseals and vapor retards, as well as high r-value. The cost is high, but it can be offset. It also greatly strengthens the structure. 

On another note, if you know somebody that got a house down to under 100 cfm, WOW. I doubt it though, As I have sprayfoamed entire structures and only once have I seen under 560 achieved, and that was also on a very small structure.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

RTC_wa said:


> R value is R Value and any contractor should show the information sheet to let the coustomer know how much it is going to cost.


Unfortunately this is not true. R-Value is not R-Value. You never answered my question from before about High Density vs. standard density.

Low density fiberglass batts (those used most often in new construction) are very inclined to suffer from convection and therefore lose a considerable amount of their R-Value.

Is it worth spraying foam for that reason alone...probably not but that depends on what the premium is. I don't know who was trying to charge you 70K for foam but the new homes in our area usually have it as a premium and my neighbor forked over the extra $5,000 for the foam in his home and that premium will more than pay for itself in his case. I am the second owner of my home but I would have payed the premium had I build the home. The air sealing value alone is worth the premium but the measurable performance difference in R-Value (trust me...this is proven) is also worth the premium in most cases. 



RTC_wa said:


> when a insulation company gave me a bid for my new home being built and it was foam 70,000 dollars that was more then all the lumber siding and roofing combined. Know what they told me but it is green and it seals your home so good. it would take me 150 years to recoup the cost. I went with with sub that did it for less then 2,000 dollars and that was insulation of all the walls inside walls out side walls R-21 attic R 49 sub floor space R-30 and my garage walls and ceiling. R value to R value is what to compair to Not R value to air inflitration.


Again...I would have encouraged you to get another quote if only from the standpoint of getting a more sane number.

I can probably go to a used car dealer and pay $50K for a used Honda Civic but that doesn't mean that is what I should think all Honda Civics cost of should be used as a valuation comparative.

Sounds to me like a foam installer was trying to make half his year on your job.

Insulating between conditioned spaces is great for noise. 



RTC_wa said:


> Does foam work to seal the house yes. a case or two of Good stuff low expation foam on the seams of the stud cavitys would work just fine.


If you think you can seal up a home effectively with just a case or two of foam, you are probably mistake. If you are not...do you want a job??? :thumbup: 

It may be done from the standpoint of the materials but I can guarantee you that the amount of time that it will take will be exhaustive to the installers and you will get a bunch of stuff missed.

You don't need to use a spray foam rig to do it but spray-able sealants/caulks are much easier and more effective when doing a bunch of square footage.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

An "R-value" for a material is not always equal to another "R-value"!!!! There are values for materials themselves, but in many cases the used of the product will only provide 50% to 85% of that value in many cases, depending on the wall or roof construction - whether is a material property and real value in use.

It depends on how it is used. Unfortunately, the building codes are simplistic requirements based on some uses of a material. A prime example is the "R" of a material like a bulk insulating material because it is in a situation between members (like studs and joists) and not as a continuous layer to eliminate thermal short circuits. This is not including the benefits of eliminating air infiltration.

On glaring example of thermal short circulating is the use of 6" fiberglass (R-19) that can give a value 50% less between studs, depending on the spacing and stud material and not solve the infiltration problem.

Dick


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> Unfortunately this is not true. R-Value is not R-Value. You never answered my question from before about High Density vs. standard density.
> 
> Low density fiberglass batts (those used most often in new construction) are very inclined to suffer from convection and therefore lose a considerable amount of their R-Value.


A parently I was not clear enough I had a contractor give me a bid I had a FG contractor give me a Bid went with the FG R21 in the wall R 13 in the inside walls R 30 in the crawl space R-49 blown under 3 grand done walls sheetrocked taped sanded painted.
Now back to my point 
you need to read 16 CFR 460 the FTC states that R-Value is R-value and how manufactures can claim how their product get to that said value. And I sure do hope convection does happen in my home it helps move humidity and air out of the home. http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/460


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Made this debate its own thread.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

As posted earlier, the codes (R-values) are simplistic overall requirements to make approvals and inspections and not necessarily accurate. They (code creators) accept materials manufacturers tests on individual products and not how the wall or roof works in the real world (look the other way?).

Manufacturers are great for advertising products themselves and not pointing out end results because they have already run their own assembly testing, but do not have o release the results.

Dick


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

Also, understand that r-value is simply a resistance to heat transfering through the material. It is not the tell all of how a product will perform. Cellulose is the prime example. You get a 3.7-3.8 r-value installing loose fill in an attic flat. However, that value drops down to 3.2-3.5 in a densepacked wall cavity. HOWEVER, even though the thermal bridging will be slightly increased by this, convection is drastically improved. So, that should get rid of the r-value is r-value argument.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> An "R-value" for a material is not always equal to another "R-value"!!!! There are values for materials themselves, but in many cases the used of the product will only provide 50% to 85% of that value in many cases, depending on the wall or roof construction - whether is a material property and real value in use.
> 
> It depends on how it is used. Unfortunately, the building codes are simplistic requirements based on some uses of a material. A prime example is the "R" of a material like a bulk insulating material because it is in a situation between members (like studs and joists) and not as a continuous layer to eliminate thermal short circuits. This is not including the benefits of eliminating air infiltration.
> 
> ...


+1

Beyond just the thermal bridging issue is also the convection. Air movement in FG = huge drop in thermal performance.



RTC_wa said:


> A parently I was not clear enough I had a contractor give me a bid I had a FG contractor give me a Bid went with the FG R21 in the wall R 13 in the inside walls R 30 in the crawl space R-49 blown under 3 grand done walls sheetrocked taped sanded painted.
> Now back to my point
> you need to read 16 CFR 460 the FTC states that R-Value is R-value and how manufactures can claim how their product get to that said value. And I sure do hope convection does happen in my home it helps move humidity and air out of the home. http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/460


You still did not answer the original inquiry. Did the contractor use high density batts or standard density?

If you do not know or the contractor did not say, they almost certainly used the standard density batting. If that is the case, that wall assembly (regardless of air sealing) will suffer from convective losses and the R-value will not approach the stated numbers except in the mildest of weather conditions. 

I think the statement about R-value and the idea that all products with R-x are the same has been addressed. 



concretemasonry said:


> As posted earlier, the codes (R-values) are simplistic overall requirements to make approvals and inspections and not necessarily accurate. They (code creators) accept materials manufacturers tests on individual products and not how the wall or roof works in the real world (look the other way?).
> 
> Manufacturers are great for advertising products themselves and not pointing out end results because they have already run their own assembly testing, but do not have o release the results.
> 
> Dick


Great explanation.


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## RTC_wa (Mar 12, 2013)

and here is the bottom line. I am the coustomer Not you! I pay my power bill Not you! I am happy with what I have and the performance of the product. Not you. The whole thing I was pointing out and I have seen this time and time again. when I have told diffrent contractors No thank you I am using some one else. The seam to get all four point contact sore. and tear down the other products. See I have zero skin in the game. I know how much I paid for my insulation I know how much my heating electric bill is less then 100 dollars per month for a 4,000 square foot home. Been in that home five years. Now non of the loose fill has settled my house is warm in the winter and cool in the summer. so why do you care? I use wood heat 100% I have used most winters less then 2 cords of wood. compaired to my old home what had blown in paper mulch in the attic an God only knows in the walls. I would use eight cords every winter. and my power bill to supplment the wood heat was over 300 dollars, for a 1800 sq foot home. Sorry I look at real savings and how it has performed over time. I am happy with it and do not regret the stuff I had put in. I just wonder why I used so much more wood and electic heat when the attic of my old house said on the cert was R-38 and it was paper mulch? and might have been 15 years old. Would love a real answer to that one not a argument. I have my theory's like the contractor who blew that in there did not do it right. Also I was only in that house while my new one was being built. and I was renting it so I would have up graded the insulation. just so you know. but if you have any thoughts on it I love to hear it.


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

RTC...in reading this post it's becoming pretty clear that you are missing one HUGE factor...labor...You're precious fine homebuilding friend is the watchdog on his jobs and makes sure what needs to be sealed is sealed, etc, etc. What you're missing is that likely 80% of the jobs underway lack that level of oversight. Spray foams and other available systems help to bridge the gap of watch dog g.c. and super lazy g.c. As was said earlier, and clearly needs repeat, foam has a place, as does fiberglass, as does cellulose. To say fiberglass is the only insulation to be used is very shortsighted and is a statement lacking a true understanding of the building industry, for better and for worse, because I have clients who could care less about fine homebuilding magazine or blower doors...


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

RTC_wa said:


> I just wonder why I used so much more wood and electic heat when the attic of my old house said on the cert was R-38 and it was paper mulch? and might have been 15 years old. Would love a real answer to that one not a argument.


The house isn't sealed right...so, mr. fiberglass, how do you propose to properly seal an existing house? This is where the caulking gun charges start to rival spray foam charges...see the bigger picture now?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

RTC -

Why get in such a snit?

Your original post a sketch at best had n real details. Later posts indicate you had many other conditions that were not initially presented, but dropped in later to draw things out. Your replies indicate you have made significant independent searches and did not agree with the your research. - Just use your independent research results since you know the actual conditions.

To get good opinions, you have to ask good questions and provide complete information of the conditions. This is actually a U.S. based forum that can also address unique international situations if the conditions are provided.

When you arbitrarily cite other research references, you must realize they are for specific materials in specific application that will not agree with the real world. It is all about taking all the the pieces and put them together to come up with a solution for the situation.

Dick


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