# Uneven sheathing on new construction roof



## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Your sheathing is most likely warped. Probably from sitting around for awhile and getting wet. It's definitely more obvious for a rambler/ranch house especially since it's on the front of the house as people enter through the front door. Nothing you can really do but replace the sheathing. It might actually get worse over time as it continues to dry.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Yep, have them replace it, free of charge.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Hopefully for you, they will, as they may come back and say "there's nothing functionally wrong with it."


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Actually, the roof is required to be installed on a solid flat substrate, so the roofing is now defective.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

I presume your builder is in an area with with a building inspector? If he doesn't "see" the problem, get some others eyes on it, and maybe he will see that it MUST be corrected. Do not let anyone tell you this will fix itself as the sheeting dries, etc, etc. Looks like 1/2 inch cdx ply without clips....this may be a code violation for your area as well.


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

Thanks for the replies.

I dug out some older pictures and the sag is new, it wasn't there when the roofing inspection was performed a few weeks ago. The sheathing is to code and there are clips, you can see them if you look closely.

This is the rear of the house so I don't think there have been many eyes on it lately. Below are pictures of the same area taken 3 and 4 weeks ago.

BTW, the builder hasn't seen this as I only found it Friday evening. So far they have been very good about making things right and they have an excellent reputation in the area so it shouldn't be a problem. I just wanted professional eyes on it before I make an scene :thumbup:


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

BTW, How difficult a job is it to replace sheathing in one area without disturbing the rest of the roof? I assume they pull back the shingles and felt backing over the offending sheets, going out the the joints in the shingles (so they can use whole shingle flats when they replace them), replace the plywood then replace the felt and shingles.

Also, if the builder gives me any grief should I call the city inspector?


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

joasis said:


> I presume your builder is in an area with with a building inspector? If he doesn't "see" the problem, get some others eyes on it, and maybe he will see that it MUST be corrected. Do not let anyone tell you this will fix itself as the sheeting dries, etc, etc. Looks like 1/2 inch cdx ply without clips....this may be a code violation for your area as well.


There is a city inspector and they did a roofing inspection prior to allowing the dry in. Obviously it wasn't there then or wasn't visible. It's 1/2" plywood with clips, the clips are just hard to see in my pictures. The Florida coastal codes are some of the strictest in the county for wind loading and the inspectors are pretty critical in this city. I didn't mention it before but this is in Ormond Beach, Florida.

The builder is well respected and builds quality homes, this is obviously a sub-contractor issue. I assume, based on all of my dealings to date, that he'll take care of it properly but if he gives me any grief I'll call the city back in to put some more eyes on the problem. 

One thing's for sure, I won't accept delivery on the house without this addressed so if he wants that last draw (where most of his profit is) then it will get fixed. I don't expect it will come to that.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I can see only a few H clips in place. The installer of the deck sheathing spaced them too far apart it woud seem.

The 4 foot vertical bridging is from the sheets being butted too tightly together and expanding/swelling from having not enough room to move.

Under the decking, they may suggest installing cross bridging purlins to support the horizontal sag, but that only temporarily covers up the issue. It was not done properly and should be addressed for the entire roof.

What about future swelling and sag, which is not yet observable? 

So, is it the carpenters fault for installing the decking improperly?

Or, is it the roofers fault for accepting the side conditions?

Or, is it the builders or inspectors fault for allowing work to procede over unstable conditions?

You may have discovered a much larger can of worms than it currently seems.

Ed


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I can see only a few H clips in place. The installer of the deck sheathing spaced them too far apart it woud seem.
> 
> The 4 foot vertical bridging is from the sheets being butted too tightly together and expanding/swelling from having not enough room to move.
> 
> ...


Ed,

While I appreciate your response I think jumping to the conclusion that they installed the roof incorrectly or there is a larger can of worms is unwarranted without a thorough inspection. 

This roof area sagged and it has clips. We need to determine why it sagged before we jump off the cliff and start demoing the rest of the roof. In fact, the clips, although not perfectly spaced in the center of each 24" section are there and for the most part centered. The clips also prevent the panels from butting up against each other as they leave the proper 1/8" gap between panels. Now, that doesn't mean that the vertical gaps were laid properly, the only way to see that would be to pull the shingles and underlayment off and inspect every seam and I doubt that will happen unless the city inspector requests it.

There were 3 roofing inspections that took place and the last one had 1 issue that was addressed (coverage of underlayment on a corner). I don't know where to place blame but I would put the bulk of it on the roofer since he should have noticed the sag or a soft spot when covering the roof. In looking at the clips in that area closer they are bent. Whether that was due to expansion and contraction or from the roofer putting too much load on that area I don't know. What I do know is the "why" will need to be determined to my satisfaction and the city inspector signs off on it

I will voice my concerns to the builder that the entire roof is suspect and see what response I get (I can predict the response already)


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Make sure it's on your final punchlist, and of course, do not go to settlement until it's fixed. You have zero leverage after settlement.


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> Make sure it's on your final punchlist, and of course, do not go to settlement until it's fixed. You have zero leverage after settlement.


Oh you can bet it is on the punch list. In fact I won't authorize the next draw until this is resolved.

I went back over today and took a hard look around the entire roof and from what I see this is the only spot that has a problem. Everywhere else the clips were properly installed, the sheathing was properly spaced and the roof is true and solid. As you can see from these pictures it's only this one section and upon closer inspection it appears that something very heavy was either placed or dropped on the roof. Judging my the clean break of the upper clip and the bent nature of the lower clip it looks like the roofers dropped something very heavy on the roof. The plywood in this section is springy where all the section around it are quite firm. We walked all around the roof and could not find any other section with a problem. You can also see from the other shots that the entire roof has been properly installed.

Hopefully I will have a good conversation with the builder tomorrow and this will get taken care of this week.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

MJ,

Based on your initial post and the 2nd photo attached, I noticed what seems to be 2 additional locations of 4 foot vertical bridging. This is usually very hard to observe with architectural laminated shingle installed already. If it were flat 3-tab shingles, it would be even more pronounced and I would be even more concerned.

One of them seems to be located just to the right of the large sumped in area but 4 foot lower and at the intersection to the right side valley. The other one seems to be parallel to the far right one circled, just directly below the left side of the farthest right wide black vent product.

Ths is not a matter of pointing the finger of blame at someone, but to find a solution before it becomes too late. This is the front view of the home and this jumps out and screams at me.

After your further post, I see proper attention to the installation of the H-clips. Possibly, when the shingles were delivered, the boom truck allowed the crane to rest the shingle pallet forks on this one extremely sumped in area, which would have caused the severe deflection on the area of greatest concern to you. This area probably was already covered with felt paper, leaving the damage unnoticed.

You can not verify proper joint spacing on the 4 foot vertical seams, because they should be located on top of the joists or rafters. Upon removing the shingle from the most severely affected 4 foot seam and cutting the felt paper back, the nails should be removed to relieve the tension and then the seam should be recut with a dado blade or a double wide saw blade and then renailed.

Ed


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

Ed,

FYI, this is the rear of the building. The front nor either side have any visual or strength issues. I walked the entire roof this afternoon.

Yes, I understand that there is no way to judge the vertical spacing without pulling back the shingles..... That sucks but based on what I saw in the past as well as today I have no reason to think it wasn't properly installed but we'll know better when they open it up.

Are you saying that they can "fix" this section by cutting out the offending 4 x 2' section or simply re cutting the edge, pushing it back into shape and re nailing? I don't like the re cutting idea. From what I felt on top, this 2' x 4' section has been delaminated from the stress. I think it should be replaced. 

I'll have them look at the other areas but if it's what I'm thinking you see that is a buildup from the flashing, not movement in the sheathing. The sun along with some tree's throw up some interesting shadows that time of day.

Thanks again for your insight!


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Give'm hell dude. I made my builder put in brand new windows (43) that were double hung, lowe e, argon filled, made them clean up the mold in the basement ($25K), made them regrade my backyard 3 times with sod, and made them reskim my driveway twice. Builders today, who are making a killing anyway, are always trying to half @ss their way through building a house. I don't feel so bad that the site supervisor allowed me to sneak in and install structured wiring (2x Coax, Ethernet, etc.) everywhere too.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

No, the major offending sumped section shoud be fully replaced if there are structural issues.

My point about cutting the vertical joints is mainly from years of doing tear-offs and finding sheets butted too tightly and expansion has magnified the problem to only a slight degree. If the bowing is too significant, the sheet gets replaced, or at least 1/2 of the sheet.

I agree that possibly the shadowing causes me to see something that may not be there, but the hump that runs parallel to the entire length of the valley is not what I was commenting about. I noted an additional 4 foot vertical "ridging" which started at the base of the left side of the valley and proceeded up vertically 4 feet, or at least I thought that might be the case. 

Look at the roof in various lighting conditions and see if there are any additional MAJOR ridging locations. As I stated before, it is very unusual for this ridging effect to telegraph through an architectural laminated shingle because the additional texture inherently conceals most visual discrepencies.

You seem to know what to look for, so use your own judgement as to the severity of the individual scenarios present.

Ed


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

handy man88 said:


> Give'm hell dude. I made my builder put in brand new windows (43) that were double hung, lowe e, argon filled, made them clean up the mold in the basement ($25K), made them regrade my backyard 3 times with sod, and made them reskim my driveway twice. Builders today, who are making a killing anyway, are always trying to half @ss their way through building a house. I don't feel so bad that the site supervisor allowed me to sneak in and install structured wiring (2x Coax, Ethernet, etc.) everywhere too.


Actually, most Builders don't make a 'killing'.... However, larger Builder/developers do...

Many of the larger builder/developers have a tendancy to 'scrimp' on various areas to increase their profit margins. 

Most smaller builders are more concerned with delivering quality....


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree. My builder at the time probably built 100+ homes per year. Smaller builders are concerned with delivering quality, but they charge much more and take much more time to get their homes built.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

handy man88 said:


> I agree. My builder at the time probably built 100+ homes per year. Smaller builders are concerned with delivering quality, but they charge much more and take much more time to get their homes built.


Do you suppose this has anything to do with quality tradespeople?

They cost more than the typical lowball sub that does new construction for the big builders.

Quality also takes more time than cookie cutters.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

handy Man, what kind of money are you talking? I have long wodered what kind of numbers the builders come back with when all is said and done.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Do you mean profit margins? I would say each house at least 50-65% profit depending on what you can get away with.

Quality Build: 1/3 material, 1/3 labor, 1/3 potential profit (depending on overhead, marketing, etc.). 

Quick Build: 1/6 material, 1/6 labor, 2/3 potential profit (depending on overhead, marketing, etc.).


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## mjw930 (Apr 8, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> Do you mean profit margins? I would say each house at least 50-65% profit depending on what you can get away with.
> 
> Quality Build: 1/3 material, 1/3 labor, 1/3 potential profit (depending on overhead, marketing, etc.).
> 
> Quick Build: 1/6 material, 1/6 labor, 2/3 potential profit (depending on overhead, marketing, etc.).


Well, I know they make a decent living but 50% - 65% profit is simply not correct. 

My builder does on average 50 homes per year and usually has between 15 and 30 homes in the ground at any one point. Their "profit" on my $324,000 contract is probably around $30,000 - $40,000 after he pays all the subs, suppliers, office overhead, salaries and commissions.

Sure, If I was the GC I could probably build my house to the same quality for around $250,000 if I didn't have a full time job and was on site every day for 6 months AND know all the proper subs, etc.

BTW, I talked to the builder and he will take a look at it today and fix it properly (replace where needed). He figures the roofer dropped a 90 lb felt roll or something like that in just the wrong place. He was pissed that the roofer didn't stop and call to get it repaired first. He will have a nice long talk with them about it. With the market being slow the subs are needing work so they can't afford to lose a builder contract because one of the workers f***ed up.

I'll be checking it later this week to see what they are doing about it.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

mjw930 said:


> Well, I know they make a decent living but 50% - 65% profit is simply not correct.
> My builder does on average 50 homes per year and usually has between 15 and 30 homes in the ground at any one point. Their "profit" on my $324,000 contract is probably around $30,000 - $40,000 after he pays all the subs, suppliers, office overhead, salaries and commissions.


Yes, those numbers are more realistic.

Then imagine also splitting what is left with a business partner.... Not a 'killing' at all.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

You forgot TAXES! 

At those numbers, Ill stick to spray foam and polyurea sprayed in place membranes.

No subs-no hassles....not as much money, but I like it.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

AaronB said:


> You forgot TAXES!


Thanks for bringing the whole night down....


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Oh man, Im sorry.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

MJ,

You stated you felt the builder would stand behind the situation and follow through with a proper course of action.

Its just good to hear your position was justified. As far as the roofer or whoever making the error in judgement, mistakes do happen. 

Good Luck,

Ed


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## homedic (Mar 24, 2006)

*H Clips*

I can see the h clips in the pictures. Those steel clips are junk. Especially in salt water/ coastal areas like Florida. They are very ineffective doing the job they are supposed to do, and a pain to work with.
We have been using the Grip H Clip for some time now and love them.
www.griphclip.com
They stay in place, are much stronger, and resistant to corrosion.
They also *actually* give you the 1/8" gap that your supposed to have.
You won't find them all over the ground around your build site.
Enjoy,


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