# Thinning Insul-X Cabinet Coat and wet sanding it(or other latexes).



## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

Wondering if anyone here has had any experience with thinning Cabinet Coat for roller or brush application, and wet sanding in general, two issues I'm needing some advice on.

*Thinning.*

I can't get a brush free result without thinning. I accidentally thinned it a bit more than I wanted, roughly 30% using water, but the results were pretty amazing, using just a Purdy brush. Glass smooth, perfectly even coverage, 0 brush marks even when looking at it in glare, though obviously thinner. May not even need to be wet sanded, but if I end up doing so, I would prefer to have this brush-free starting point.

The manufacturer doesn't recommend thinning it, after speaking with them, they're really adamant about leaving the paint as it is and at most offer the spraying recommendations for thinning which is roughly 8z to a gallon, or about 6%, nowhere near what I did. But I just couldn't get the same result without thinning, unless applying it very thick so it could level properly, and was especially difficult on vertical surface and around corners. The additional thickness also caused sags and drips, and where I did get a brush mark, it was usually much deeper and the result looked waivy. i showed the sales reps for BM at my local paint store my thinned finish, and they told me if it worked for me, do it because BM reps _have_ to tell you the official specs and procedures. They seemed to believed it adhered fine. However, the manufacturer's rep claims it could affect the final sheen and paint resistance over time by thinning too much, which scared me enough into stripping my glass smooth application, and re-applying it un-thinned. 

The results were nowhere near as good as when I thinned it, and brush marks were not only visible, but the coverage itself was not even when applied with a brush, with parts in between the brush marks not fully covering. Also it dried faster, and couldn't be worked as well or as long as when thinned.

Thinned, Purdy brush, around 25%-30%:









Un-thinned, Purdy brush straight from the can(the brush marks are more obvious in reality than in this pic):









Un-thinned, rolled on(again orange peel is a lot more noticeable than in this pic)










Lesson learned: What happens if you attempt to apply a second coat too soon(20 minutes). I was trying to fill in the areas where it didn't cover just out of curiosity.













*Wet sanding.
*
As far as wet sanding, I'm more or less following a guide on wet sanding latexes for experimental airplanes, such as in this Youtube video titled "Latex paint on Micro Mong wing" and "Rolling Latex on Experimental Airplanes", since he seems to be a pioneer in this area when it comes to latexes, and everyone swears up and down not to do it on latexes. He's done it quite a few times using even cheaper latexes with lots of guides on his blog, videos, on various experimental planes, and that's good enough backing to give it a shot on my very old kitchen cabinets.

In that particular video he's thinning Sherwin Williams high gloss latex(I think he recommends about 25% with windshield wiper fluid and either rolling or spraying them), then wet sanding gently from 1000 up to 2000 grit and then using two types of automotive polishing compounds to bring back the shine at the end. But Cabinet Coat contains urethane(not sure how that changes things) and is a satin, not a high gloss finish, so it leaves me with the question if it will work on bringing back the satin finish. I'm aware the dulling agents will prevent a higher gloss, but bringing back the satin is all I am interested in. Might seem like a stupid question, but I'm a newbie to wet sanding, so I want to be sure it would work before investing in all the different polishing and high grade sanding tools.

The brush marks themselves are not a deal breaker for me if I can't thin it, since I can wet sand the final coat, and get rid of them, as long as I can bring back the sheen on the paint. As soon as I start wet sanding it, even when I start with 1200 grit, the satin sheen flattens to a dull sheen so the added polishing step seems to be a necessary step. 

So if anyone's had any experience with wet sanding, is there any reason why polishing satin wouldn't work back up to a satin gloss and how much thinning could I safely do on Cabinet Coat? Ideally I would like to be able to thin it, to have a smoother starting point before wet sanding and then lightly wet sand for a consistent sheen.


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

A couple of better pics to illustrate my issue:

Thinned, 25-30% water








http://s11.postimg.org/7seoswuwy/CIMG0061_1.jpg

Not thinned, Purdy brush.








http://s22.postimg.org/i7g1e8ca8/CIMG0075_JPG_3.jp

Not thinned, rolled on








http://s16.postimg.org/xorblbmvo/CIMG0075_JPG_1.jpg

Nowhere near the thinned application. Night and day difference up close. Thinned looks factory. Happy New Year's everyone!


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

Well it looks like perhaps not a lot of people has had much experience with this, based off the number of views and no replies, so I decided to just go ahead forward with the project, see how it goes, and post my progress in here. Hopefully it will be of some help to others in the future, because I know when I searched the net, I couldn't find anything on this particular issue.

*My paint got goose bumps when wet sanding!*

So here's 1 issue I ran into yesterday when attempting to wet sand Insul-X Cabinet Coat 12 hours after painting with the foam roller, with 1200 grit wet or dry Gator sandpaper. This is not an issue if brushed on, but you have to deal with wet sanding brush marks, and more uneven coverage. Either way there are downsides.















































So it appears that the combination of foam roller, and wet sanding the surface too soon(12 hours there), will cause the tiny goose bumps to raise after a few minutes which will go away, if you let the surface dry. I can't remember seeing this when I rolled on 30% thinned CC. Even though they go away, the goose bumps are obviously not well adhered if water can simply cause them to raise. I have no clue if they will ever adhere at this point when the paint fully cures, since they have been raised, and retreated. Perhaps someone else has a better explanation.

I also attempted wet sanding a rolled portion that had been allowed to dry for 2 weeks. They do not rise. 

I will attempt to wet the surface of the same drawer again today, to see if they still rise. Could use this as a natural clock, for when the paint is ready to be wet sanded.

Though I tried to be pretty gentle when rolling the paint, I could also try to pay even more attention to that, and change my application technique and roll the paint on slower, to see if it will prevent those tiny air pockets from forming in the paint when rolling.

*Update: Just performed the wet test. They still rise. Even after 2 days.*. Will give it 3. Or at this point its possible the water already compromised it and will continue to rise up indefinitely. Again, when waiting a full 2 weeks, this was not an issue. But waiting 2 weeks to sand in between coats, is not very practical.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Here's my take on it. You are taking a latex paint (WATER BASED) then adding 30% more WATER which is way past the 6% recommended. By the time all this water evaporites you have a VERY thin coating covering whatever you are painting. So what do you do now add more WATER to sand. I think this water is getting under the coating due to it being so thin and is breaking the bond between the paint and substrate, causing the bubbling.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ToolSeeker said:


> Here's my take on it. You are taking a latex paint (WATER BASED) then adding 30% more WATER which is way past the 6% recommended. By the time all this water evaporites you have a VERY thin coating covering whatever you are painting. So what do you do now add more WATER to sand. I think this water is getting under the coating due to it being so thin and is breaking the bond between the paint and substrate, causing the bubbling.


plus only waiting 12 hours + foam roller


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> Here's my take on it. You are taking a latex paint (WATER BASED) then adding 30% more WATER which is way past the 6% recommended. By the time all this water evaporites you have a VERY thin coating covering whatever you are painting. So what do you do now add more WATER to sand. I think this water is getting under the coating due to it being so thin and is breaking the bond between the paint and substrate, causing the bubbling.


Thanks for answering.

That wasn't thinned to 30%. What you are noticing with the goose bumps, is unthinned, but the idea of what you are describing is the issue indeed. The small air pockets in the roller, leaves those tiny holes. At the bottom of the little holes, the film layer is simply incredibly thin, and yeah it's possible the water permeates them, therefore it causes them to not adhere and rise up. Everything else adhered just fine, just the microscopical tiny pores.

The thinned 30%, that leveled out for me when using a brush, wet sands fine even the day after, though obviously the longer you can wait, the better off. The goose bumps is roller pores issue only. Everything else but the tiny pores, adhered just fine.


*Update on thinning:* For those interested in thinning Insul-X CC, I finally got my answer after the manufacturer's rep was kind enough to ask the lab people and gave me a call back yesterday. The "do not thin" recommendation for foam and brush application, is not for a chemical reason, but an application reason. They were worried of complaints of the paint becoming TOO thin when applying with brushes or rollers, and causing too many drips and runs. Thinning up to roughly 10 oz per gallon, will not change the chemical formula, and is within the safe parameters as long as you feel runs or sags won't be an issue for you. It sounds like it _should _act similar to other latexes, when thinning. I decided to stay conservative. Will attempt to thin the entire can now with roughly 10 ounces per gallon, and see how that goes, because in my case, after attempting those tests, I am certain its the paint's thickness that's preventing it from leveling out as smooth as I want it to. I can deal with the occasional drip and sag, as long as 95% of the surface is level and even. It will make for a much better starting point for wet sanding, and less material needed to be discarded through wet sanding.




*Update on goose bumps:*
Day 3: They still rise up. At this point it's possible the initial water application too soon caused them to remain permanently unadhered, and this might go on indefinitely, but I will continue to test this for a couple of more days. 


I also attempted to continue wet sanding *2 weeks old* CC in other areas I was testing. It works irrelevant of how it was applied. Roller, brush, foam brush. It holds up just fine with the occasional strip if you are not careful, and it can be patched up. Cheaper latexes cannot be patched up so easily if wet sanded before fully cured. They will continue to roll and strip indefinitely. Makes it impossible to feather stripped portions unless you are willing to wait a full month and a half for it to fully cure, to patch it and sand it. I tried it and had to strip Olympic One. CC works much better. You can sand out brush marks, imperfections, orange peel, etc. The strips with Cabinet Coat remain local and can be feathered and patched then wet sanded back down smooth. A HUGE advantage, and the only thing that makes me feel safe in attempting this.

But again, 2 weeks, is not very practical for most people to wait to wet sand in between coats, although from what I am noticing sanding away this older application, it might not be necessary to wet sand in between coats if you are willing to risk and prejudge how much thickness you will need at the very end for a deeper wet sand and it levels smooth enough. It seems to sand so well when its pretty much fully cured, that applying all your coats as smoothly as possibly and just doing a final wet sand at the end, might work also. I would just prefer to be able to sand it in between once, and not have to wait 2 weeks to sand away orange peel. Being the first time I'm trying this, I just have no clue how much thickness I will need. Wet sanding in between coats helps me gauge this. 


Again the issue with the goose bumps, is roller only, and there doesn't appear to be any adhesion problems with wet sanding brushed applications even as early as the following day, though to be on the safe side, it's best to give it as much time as possible. 2-3 days minimum.. Another possible solution when needing to use a roller, could be to apply 2 coats, with the 2nd being a very thin coat whose purpose would be mainly to fill those pores caused by the roller. Then it may be ok to wet sand sooner. That's what I'll be attempting in areas where I have to use a roller.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Why wet sanding ? Why not, still using the high grit paper, not dry sanding ?


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> Why wet sanding ? Why not, still using the high grit paper, not dry sanding ?


Especially if the paint is not fully cured, putting dry sandpaper to latex will just strip it and clog up the paper. The enemy of latex is heat, so if you go dry, you'll heat it up and strip it extremely easy. And your paper only lasts for a few strokes. Not that figuring out how and when wet sand latex is any easier, but at least its possible.

Wet sanding is much easier, more gentle on the paint, creates smoother sanding scratches and most importantly, prevents clogging. With high grit paper, 600+ or higher, it will clog up in a heartbeat, after the first few strokes, making the paper useless. Even the lower grit clogs up pretty fast.

I use soapy water which will lubricate it better and it allows me to use one or two sheets of sandpaper for the entire cabinet frame. I would need hundreds of sheets to try to do it dry, that is if it would work in the first place.

*Update on Goose bumps:* Day 4. Looking better. They still rise, but only on the unsanded portion, not the same degree, and its taking longer. It took about 15 minutes of the surface being wet, testing on an unsanded portion.

On a previously wet sanded portion, such as where they originally showed up during wet sanding, and then retreated, they are no longer rising up after keeping the surface wet for 10 minutes. Took almost 20 minutes, and barely noticeable. So good news. Will give it more time, and test again tomorrow, but it looks like 4-5 days might be the magic number with the temperature being around 73 degrees. 5 days would be much better than waiting 2 weeks.


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

*Update on Goose bumps: Day 5.** They no longer rise even after 30 minutes of standing water, on either previously sanded portions where they first showed up, or unsanded portions.*

So there it is. About 4-5 days at normal room temperature, should be more than enough time if you want to be super safe wet sanding rolled on CC, straight from the can, in order not to get any goose bumps. I think you will only get them though, if your roller causes them in the first place. Either way, you shouldn't ever need more than 5-10 minutes in any one area to wet sand, so 30 minutes of standing water not having an effect is plenty of time to successfully wet sand in between coats. You can probably get away with doing it much sooner if you brush it on, or if your roller doesn't leave the tiny microscopical pores.

I also feel that even thought the goose bumps appeared, they seem to be pretty harmless, now that they no longer rise. I don't plan on stripping this drawer. I'm going to continue with it as it is, just out of curiosity, to see if it acts any different 6 months to a year from now so I know for future projects. I plan on giving the rest of the frame and doors where I use a roller, a full 4-5 days though, just to be safe.


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## safewaysanitizing (7 d ago)

spray it all no roller no brush


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