# Miter saw tripping NEW breaker.



## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Hello I just put in new 20 amp outlets in my garage on their own 20 amp GFCI/AFCI breaker. Everything works fine. Today I plugged in my Hiatchi c 10fce2 miter saw and the breaker tripped. I tried my Dewalt table saw it worked fine. I tried my ryobi router table with my shop vac hooked up to it. It worked fine. ONLY THE MITER SAW tripped the breaker. My brother told me it must be an issue WITH the miter saw. Could it be the power cord or maybe a switch? how can I find out which? or if it is something else.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Dual Function breakers have a way to indicate what the last trip was (overcurrent, AFCI, or GFCI). Do you know which one it is ?

What Mfg/model number is your dual function breaker?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Have you tried the Miter saw on another circuit?

Try that, to isolate this to the saw or not. 

If it trips other breakers, return it and get a replacement saw. 

I have bought "NEW" breakers, that were junk.

Someone had been in the BOX store, and swapped their bad breaker for the new one out of the box, and put it back on the shelf.

I did get a new replacement, but it took a hundred questions, and insistence to convince them that I was not trying to cheat them. 

It's possible that your breaker is weak, and this saw is pulling juse enough to trip it.

I would try the saw on a different circuit, first. 

ED


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I don't know how to tell what function of the breaker tripped. I did plug it in to an outlet outside and it worked fine. But all my other power tools work just fine on the breaker that the miter saw was tripping


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Most likely something in the saw is triggering the arc fault detection.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

This is also the ONLY gfci/afci breaker in my entire house. I only have 1 just plain gfci breaker too and i have not tested the saw on that breaker.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Joed ok but what the power cord or the switch? How would i tell?


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> Joed ok but what the power cord or the switch? How would i tell?


If the saw is new, it doesn't matter. Exchange the saw for a good one. You have obviously narrowed it down to the saw and not the breaker. If it is not a new saw, and if it is tripping when plugged in, then I would be checking the cord and/or replacing it.

IF that is the only combo breaker in the house, I would seriously consider changing it to a GFCI breaker.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Saw is not new i got it used a year ago. Since i just put in the breaker and now days the gfci/afci breakers are becoming code i will try getting a new cord for the saw and hope that fixes it.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

And it doesn't trip soon as soon as i plug it in it trips the second i turn on the saw. The second i pull the power switch .


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Then it could be in the switch. Change breakers. If you have only one combo breaker, you aren't complying with "code" anyway, so it won't matter much.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

A lot of these machines have brush motors. The brushes sometimes will arc as the unit turns. AFCI detects the arcing signature and trips. I have heard of brand new panel installs on new home builds giving trouble to the contractor working because their saws etc. were constantly tripping the AFCI. I don't know what the solution was.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I will replace the power cord if it still trips then i will switch my gfci basement breaker with my gfci/afci garage breaker and see if that does it. But since my router and my table saw both work without tripping the breaker it seems it has to be the miter saw. I will also check my circular saw to see if that trips it. That cord is trashed if it doesn't trip it then it has to be in the miter saw


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Try the saw in the dark, if you see an arc, then you know that it is arcing, and where.

Then you know where to concentrate your efforts.

ED


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Ok my afci breaker had the red light by afci when i reset it after tripping. I rried every other tool as well. Circular saw with trashed cord, power drill witj trashed cord, oscillating tool, belt sander, orbital sander , and another power sander, table saw router shop vac jig saw and nothing else brushed or brushless tripped it. I opened the handle and the switch was REALLY dirty. It looks like it will be easy to replace both power cord and switch but could it actually be the motor? If so it would be time for a new saw.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Change the breaker !!! You probably have worn brushes in the saw and it is arcing. You really don't need arc fault protection in a shop. GFCI will suffice.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Well if it is the brushes then I could replace them. The only brushes i see on the diagram are $5.99 a new breaker is $51.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

However I don't know how to tell if it is the brushes or the power cord or the switch or what. I turned out the lights and I see no arcing.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

If it was the power cord or the switch I would expect the saw would cut on off when you were using it.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

It does the second i turn on the switch the breaker trips.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I guess just replace cord and brushes and maybe switch too.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I have noticed a smell when cutting harder woods maybe brushes would be place to start.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

New brushes, $5.99....now new cord, $12.....oh, new motor $125, if you can find one. Labor, priceless. New saw or new breaker. Breaker is cheaper.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Chandler if it was the motor i would switch breakers. But you are really being over bearing about the breaker instead of helping come up with a solution .


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> And it doesn't trip soon as soon as i plug it in it trips the second i turn on the saw. The second i pull the power switch .


Don't have a solution, as I have researched here before, but I have a very similar issue with my Craftsman job site table saw.

On* any* gfi circuit, mine or job site, it will immediately trip the GFI upon startup...* but only just most all the time.* Sometimes it will successfully start and run.

It is a pretty old saw, bought new but rode hard. It originally worked fine.

It works fine on a non-gfi circuit. Basically now, I just run an extension cord if necessary to a non-gfi.(I have tested the frame for any leakage to ground, and have found no leakage.)

It must have to do with start-up, but I do not understand motors.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Open it up and disconnect the cord and see if it still pops the breaker, if no the cord is good.
Bypass the trigger and does it pop the breaker when plugged in. If no the trigger is the bad part. If yes change the brushes. 

I believe the electric break reverses the power on a stop, I don't know if that is redirected or corrected at the stop function or does it do that on start up. The latter could cause a problem with the breaker. 



On new construction jobs we often changed the breaker to one with less functions so we could actually work.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I could understand that if ALL my tools did the same thing but it is just the one saw.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

As mentioned previously, you do not need an AFCI/GFI breaker for the garage. Just a GFI. And, at the first outlet, just put in a 20 amp GFI outlet. It will protect that outlet and all the downstream outlets. 

Go ahead and change out the brushes and cord if it makes you feel better, nothing wrong with that. Just don't go too deep in making changes on the table saw as you don't spend too much in repairs. 

But, a 20 amp plain breaker is less than $10 and a 20 amp GFI breaker is less than $20 of that much.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

lhversaw said:


> I could understand that if ALL my tools did the same thing but it is just the one saw.


Not all tools rated at 15 amp are the same. You need to take a look at the starting amps required to start the motor. The motor on your table saw may have require a larger starting amperage than your other tools. Especially if the brushes are all carboned up. And the other tools are brushless or the brushes are new. 

You can check the amperage draw with an amp meter if you want to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. 

How old is your table saw? Have you cleaned out the inside of the cabinet? Have you cleaned and maintained the bearings and belts? Is there any slippage if it uses belts? Is the motor full of dust so it can dissipate heat?

There are a lot of reasons why one tool can pop a breaker while others work fine. Just read what people have posted and stop discounting them because they don't fit in your pre-conceived thoughts on what it could be.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> I could understand that if ALL my tools did the same thing but it is just the one saw.


Just check out the one saw.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Ktownskier it is a miter saw i am not sure how much amp it used on start up. The outlets are 20 amp and the breaker is gfci/afci 20 amp breaker. Gfci breakers are now code when you add new breakers during remodeling and adding to the boxes. It is a ge box and the ge gfci breakers are $51 and the dual gfci/afci are $44 just look the up at lowes and homedepot. When adding breakers you have to use the same a certain type of breaker based on your breaker box. While expensive i put in the breaker required for my breaker box. I came here to get help to diagnose the problem so i can fix it right not so I can use some jury rigged solution or a solution of buy another breaker. I am dismissing the breaker suggestions cause it is a brand new breaker and only one tool isn't working with it. That tells me it isn't the breaker so why would I replace what i know it isn't. Since it is obviously the saw what I NEED is to figure out WHAT PART of the saw is the issue but all i seem to get is one or 2 guys bent on ******* fixes and no one else knowing what or how to find out what either


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

I don't know about "red neck" fixes, doesn't seem like you have tried many...that's a "******* response".... gosh Billy-Joe-Bob....I don't want to spend any time or money.

Neil at #26 gave you a pretty good ******* (in Canada I thinks it a "blue neck" because of the cold) method to analyse and find the possible problem. So have others.

I will say I have the similar problem. Seems my ******* idea is to not worry about it and use a non=gfi circuit... minor inconvenience....


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I"m just trying to get you to use the saw without nuisance trips. Combo AFCI/GFCI breakers will false trip when a motor is introduced. That is a known fact. You don't need AFCI protection in your shop/garage. Changing the breaker will solve your problems, as the saw is NOT defective. If the wiring was bad, it would trip a regular breaker or even a GFCI breaker. But, since it works on other circuits, having the AFCI is overkill and redundant.

You are going to do what you want to do to your saw, which most likely only needs brushes at the most. In time, however, you will find out more of your motor driven items will trip the AFCI breaker.

My fix is not *******, although I do claim to be one, and I don't take offense at that. Tear the saw down, find the problem, and if you don't, what are you going to do? Probably change the breaker and proceed with life.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I don't know about "red neck" fixes, doesn't seem like you have tried many...that's a "******* response".... gosh Billy-Joe-Bob....I don't want to spend any time or money.
> 
> Neil at #26 gave you a pretty good ******* (in Canada I thinks it a "blue neck" because of the cold) method to analyse and find the possible problem. So have others.
> 
> I will say I have the similar problem. Seems my ******* idea is to not worry about it and use a non=gfi circuit... minor inconvenience....


If you google this you will find people in a multitude of forums with the same problems and it sounds like there are lots of motors that have a little leak on start up and the breaker manufactures are working on the sensitivity of these breakers. Until they have that worked out, if you can't find a problem with the motor and you don't think is a real problem that might require junking the saw then the choice would be a lesser breaker.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Mtn qhy replace a brand new working breaker when the saw is the issue. Why not FIND THE PROBLEM AND FIX IT RIGHT. If you cut your finger off you don't just put a bandaid on it you go to the hospital and get it fixed right. This is the same principle it is obviously a problem in the saw so i am trying to get help finding and fixing the problem rather than just putting a bandaid solution to it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I will try again. 

Open it up and disconnect the cord and see if it still pops the breaker, if no the cord is good.
Bypass the trigger and does it pop the breaker when plugged in. If no the trigger is the bad part. If yes change the brushes. 

I believe the electric break reverses the power on a stop, I don't know if that is redirected or corrected at the stop function or does it do that on start up. The latter could cause a problem with the breaker. 



On new construction jobs we often changed the breaker to one with less functions so we could actually work. 

__________________


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Chandler if that were the case the breaker would have tripped with my table saw, router, drill, all 3 sanders, circular saw, oscillating tool and jig saw but it didn't only with the miter saw. So if it only trips with one single tool how is it needed to junk a new breaker when only one tool trips it? Several of those tools also have brushes 0so if one single item is tripping it the issue has to reside in that item. Applying a bandaid fix doesn't FIX the issue.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> I will try again.
> 
> Open it up and disconnect the cord and see if it still pops the breaker, if no the cord is good.
> Bypass the trigger and does it pop the breaker when plugged in. If no the trigger is the bad part. If yes change the brushes.
> ...


it does not trip the breaker just by plugging in the cord as there is no JUICE until the switch is turned on. So why would plugging in a disassembled cord trip a breaker? that makes no sense. 
Bypass the trigger. Ok not sure how and if I did no trigger no power can't trip if there is no way to turn on power again makes no sense


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> I will try again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nothing about this sentence makes sense at all.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> I will try again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a prime example of bandaid fix. Rather than find the issue and fix it lets just put a bandaid on it or ignore the problem all together. This would be fine if I just was looking for a way to not fix it but I AM TRYING TO FIND AND FIX THE PROBLEM THE RIGHT WAY. Why is that such a hard concept?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> Mtn qhy replace a brand new working breaker when the saw is the issue. Why not FIND THE PROBLEM AND FIX IT RIGHT. If you cut your finger off you don't just put a bandaid on it you go to the hospital and get it fixed right. This is the same principle it is obviously a problem in the saw so i am trying to get help finding and fixing the problem rather than just putting a bandaid solution to it.


Ihversaw, how big a problem is there. If you scratch/cut your finger, yes you sometimes bother to put a bandaid on it, but you don't go to the emergency clinic.

Now, I have no issue with trying to find the problem if it does bother you that much...but you have some decent suggestions that I don't think you have tried.

I agree with you, that it sure does not seem an issue with your breaker.

I only did not think anyone gave you "red neck" advice...at least red neck in a derogatory sense.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

MTN if you read a bit closer i said if you cut your finger OFF you don't just put a band aid on it. Lets try this analogy if your car is leaking oil you don't put duck tape on it you find and fix the leak so that it no longer leaks.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> This is a prime example of bandaid fix. Rather than find the issue and fix it lets just put a bandaid on it or ignore the problem all together. This would be fine if I just was looking for a way to not fix it but I AM TRYING TO FIND AND FIX THE PROBLEM THE RIGHT WAY. Why is that such a hard concept?



Did you do the checking of the saw that i also suggested or would it be better to argue with people who are trying to help with what ever knowledge they have.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The flow of electricity reverses when the trigger is released.
Reversing the electrical flow throws the motor into reverse long enough to provide the friction needed to stop the rotating blade. As a result, the saw blade stops much more quickly than it otherwise would on its own. It’s easy to imagine the potential damage a blade spinning for 12 seconds after the cut could do—particularly with larger, heavier saws. Equal danger exists with both circular saws and angle grinders which can be set down while the blade still spins.


https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/how-does-a-saws-electric-brake-work/25223/


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

The suggestions may not be meant derogatory but they do seem to be the easy lazy put a band aid on it type of fix and that is why tools don't last as long as they should. Fixing the problem right is ALWAYS the way to go. But you have to FIND the issue first which is why I came here. 

As far as workers replacing breakers with lesser breakers so their tools will work instead of fixing their tools that is just lazy and any worker who came in my house and did that would be fired from the job on my house.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> Chandler if that were the case the breaker would have tripped


Not necessarily. Your saw has a blade brake on it. It consists of a half wave rectifier which turns the motor on the saw into a generator running in reverse. As soon as the blade stops, the generator action stops and it becomes a motor again. 

I sincerely don't think anything is wrong with your saw. The sensitivity of the breaker is to blame for the trips. At the risk of repeating myself, changing the breaker to a code compliant GFCI breaker will stop the nuisance trips. Your reluctance to accept this is going to cause you to go through a bunch of non revealing work, but it's your saw.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> The suggestions may not be meant derogatory but they do seem to be the easy lazy put a band aid on it type of fix and that is why tools don't last as long as they should. Fixing the problem right is ALWAYS the way to go. But you have to FIND the issue first which is why I came here.
> 
> As far as workers replacing breakers with lesser breakers so their tools will work instead of fixing their tools that is just lazy and any worker who came in my house and did that would be fired from the job on my house.


Fair enough, go buy a new saw.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Did you do the checking of the saw that i also suggested or would it be better to argue with people who are trying to help with what ever knowledge they have.


again IF THERE IS NO POWER TO THE CORD UNTIL THE SWITCH IS TURNED ON HOW ON EARTH WILL TAKING THE CORD COMPLETELY OFF OF THE TOOL GOING TO TRIP OR NOT TRIP ANYTHING? THERE IS NO SWITCH ON THE CORD AT THAT POINT IT IS JUST A EMPTY CORD PLUGGED INTO AN OUTLET HOW DOES THAT DO ANY GOOD OR FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PUT A CORD INTO THE WAY WITH NO POWER TOOL ATTACHED TO IT WHOOPIE. 

as far as by passing the switch again I don't know how to do that and again IF THERE IS NO SWITCH TO TURN THE UNIT ON THE UNIT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IF IT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE HOW CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PLUG IN A TOOL TO THE WALL THAT HAS NO WAY OF TURNING ON.

there was one sentence that made zero sense at all from start to finish. So how can or why would I try things that can't possible find anything out other than the knowledge that I can take a switch, the very thing i need to turn the unit on, out or the knowledge that I can plug in a cord to the wall with nothing attached to the cord. wow the knowledge that I can do that must do wanders for my brain but I am looking for a diagnosis and solution not plugging empty cords in the wall or taking out parts NEEDED to make it work in the first place.

son: look pa the tire is flat

Pa: just take it off it will be fine with just 3.

Car: I won't work like that I need all 4 tires.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Granted you eventually said it only tripped when you pulled the trigger, so a fault in the cord is not in the picture. No need to shout at us because you don't understand.

If you don't know how to remove the switch, how do you propose to find out what the problem is? The switch will have two wires in and two wires out. The two wires out can be directly connected to the two wires in and then plug it in. If it trips you need to go further. Pull the half wave rectifier out..........wait, if you can't do the switch, you can't do the rectifier. Do you see where this is going? You don't know what to do, we tell you what to do, and you rebel, and start yelling in frustration.

Bandaid or not, there's nothing wrong with your saw.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> MTN if you read a bit closer i said if you cut your finger OFF you don't just put a band aid on it. Lets try this analogy if your car is leaking oil you don't put duck tape on it you find and fix the leak so that it no longer leaks.


Iversaw..... You missed the analogy. If it's a serious issue (cut your finger off) yes you go to the doc.... but if it's minor (scratch/cut finger) you might apply a bandaid.

Using a non-gfi circuit seems a minor problem to me....(given there is no material leakage and the frame is not live), obviously not to you which is fine... but everyone is trying to help.

I was just trying to tell you that I had no luck previously in finding an easy fix. My bet is that either the brushes or windings have very minor leakage at start-up.....and I did not think that was a sufficient issue to try and fix.

I thought Neil gave you a good suggestion at jumping the cord, then the switch, to detrmine if it is in the motor. If so, next try might be the brushes, or take it to a electric motor rebuilder (or buy a new motor).


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> again IF THERE IS NO POWER TO THE CORD UNTIL THE SWITCH IS TURNED ON HOW ON EARTH WILL TAKING THE CORD COMPLETELY OFF OF THE TOOL GOING TO TRIP OR NOT TRIP ANYTHING? THERE IS NO SWITCH ON THE CORD AT THAT POINT IT IS JUST A EMPTY CORD PLUGGED INTO AN OUTLET HOW DOES THAT DO ANY GOOD OR FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PUT A CORD INTO THE WAY WITH NO POWER TOOL ATTACHED TO IT WHOOPIE.
> 
> as far as by passing the switch again I don't know how to do that and again IF THERE IS NO SWITCH TO TURN THE UNIT ON THE UNIT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IF IT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE HOW CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PLUG IN A TOOL TO THE WALL THAT HAS NO WAY OF TURNING ON.
> 
> ...


 Thank you, after all these posts, I believe this is the first clarifying quests you have asked. 



Yes if the breaker does not pop whie the cord is plugged in the cord is good. You by pass the switch by taking the wires off the switch and connecting them together, if there are just 2, if there are more that would add more question. One you have by passed the switch pug it in and turn on the breaker, the saw will either start or the breaker will pop. If the saw starts up you have a problem with the switch. 

I posted a link to how the brakes work. I don't if that can cause a problem but I don't know that it wouldn't cause a problem either, I don't know what the mechanism is that reverses the power.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I am sorry for getting so frustrated but honestly it's like talking to a mechanic who replaces a transmission buy putting duck tape on the broken one. I seriously thought coming to this forum that surely SOMEONE could or would help me actually diagnose the issues so that I knew what part to buy and replace it. I guess I was wrong it seems that Chandler's solution is to take a brand new part that is 1 week old, the breaker, and replace it instead of fix the tool that has the problem. 


Neal seems to be all about plugging disassembled cord in the wall and tale out the very part needed to actually turn the tool on rendering it usless.


So yeah I am getting frustrated with the lack of actual help and the flood of putting duck tape on it type comments


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> I am sorry for getting so frustrated but honestly it's like talking to a mechanic who replaces a transmission buy putting duck tape on the broken one. I seriously thought coming to this forum that surely SOMEONE could or would help me actually diagnose the issues so that I knew what part to buy and replace it. I guess I was wrong it seems that Chandler's solution is to take a brand new part that is 1 week old, the breaker, and replace it instead of fix the tool that has the problem.
> 
> 
> Neal seems to be all about plugging disassembled cord in the wall and tale out the very part needed to actually turn the tool on rendering it usless.
> ...


 Everyone would love to be able to solve this problem.
https://www.google.ca/search?ei=U2t...&ved=0ahUKEwijr7CrsOrjAhUniFQKHc71CCIQ4dUDCAo


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Thank you, after all these posts, I believe this is the first clarifying quests you have asked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


of course the cord won't pop the breaker when being plugged in as there is no power until the turn on the unit so taking the cord off of the unit and plugging it into the wall would be useless as there would be no power tool attached to it therefore no way to turn ANYTHING on as it would be a plain cord with nothing attached to it. talk about asking to be electrocuted as well. so no I haven't tried that and I am not stupid enough to either.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> again* IF THERE IS NO POWER TO THE CORD UNTIL THE SWITCH IS TURNED ON HOW ON EARTH WILL TAKING THE CORD COMPLETELY OFF OF THE TOOL GOING TO TRIP OR NOT TRIP ANYTHING? THERE IS NO SWITCH ON THE CORD AT THAT POINT IT IS JUST A EMPTY CORD PLUGGED INTO AN OUTLET HOW DOES THAT DO ANY GOOD OR FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PUT A CORD INTO THE WAY WITH NO POWER TOOL ATTACHED TO IT WHOOPIE. *
> 
> as far as by passing the switch again I don't know how to do that and again IF THERE IS NO SWITCH TO TURN THE UNIT ON THE UNIT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IF IT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE HOW CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PLUG IN A TOOL TO THE WALL THAT HAS NO WAY OF TURNING ON.
> 
> ...


IVER.... PAY ATTENTION AND THINK....the point above was not to test the cord by leaving it in the wall. The point was to jump (substitute) the cord with a known good cord to the saw. I don't think that is your problem, but if the neutral was grounded to the ground in the cord (wear/tear at likely the entrance of the cord to the saw), then that would trip a GFI when power was called for with your switch. AND your problem would simply be with the cord. WOOOOPEE !!!!!!!!


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

lhversaw said:


> Ktownskier it is a miter saw i am not sure how much amp it used on start up. The outlets are 20 amp and the breaker is gfci/afci 20 amp breaker. Gfci breakers are now code when you add new breakers during remodeling and adding to the boxes. It is a ge box and the ge gfci breakers are $51 and the dual gfci/afci are $44 just look the up at lowes and homedepot. When adding breakers you have to use the same a certain type of breaker based on your breaker box. While expensive i put in the breaker required for my breaker box. I came here to get help to diagnose the problem so i can fix it right not so I can use some jury rigged solution or a solution of buy another breaker. I am dismissing the breaker suggestions cause it is a brand new breaker and only one tool isn't working with it. That tells me it isn't the breaker so why would I replace what i know it isn't. Since it is obviously the saw what I NEED is to figure out WHAT PART of the saw is the issue but all i seem to get is one or 2 guys bent on ******* fixes and no one else knowing what or how to find out what either


Forgive me for typing TABLE saw where I meant to type MITER saw. I humbly ask forgiveness for my transgression. 

We ARE trying to help you. Yet you seem to refuse everything we suggest. 

Why are you assuming that it is not the breaker because it is new? Have you never had any dead on arrival items before? Just because it appears to be working for most of your other tools but not for this specific MITER saw, why does the MITER saw OBVIOUSLY become the culprit?

It quite probably is, and @Nealtw gave you some pretty good steps to determine what parts of the MITER saw may be at fault. 

As I stated in my first post, change your brushes, your cord and your switch. They don't seem that expensive. Even if they weren't the culprit, it will give you peace of mind and help narrow down the actual problem. 

Go through all the electrical connections you can get access to. Make sure they are all clean and are tight. Apply silicon grease to protect them and seal them back up. Clean up the motor by blowing compressed air carefully, making sure not to blow more stuff into the casing. 

There is not a lot of maintenance to be done on the MITER saw. I have attached a link to the user manual if you don't have one. 

And, yes, I understand code and that it matters. I applaud that you are following it, I wish more people did. Does your local authorized housing jurisdiction (AHJ) require you to bring the rest of the electrical up to code? Did you check with the inspector to see if they require that garages have the same requirements as living space?


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> Chandler's solution is to take a brand new part


My suggestion is to take a nuisance trip proned breaker and exchange it for a proven less proned to trip breaker. You have an apple. Trade it for an orange. I am not for changing things just because they are there. You have a breaker proven to be weak. Trade it in for a stronger one. I don't care how new the AFCI is, it is the culprit. A GFCI breaker will solve the problem. OR, you can tear your saw apart.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I guess I need to find a tool repair person to get this diagnosed as all I seem to be getting is ridiculed and given temporary solutions or flat out being given ideas that only make sense to those giving them. Like I said red neck fixes and that is not why I came here


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> of course the cord won't pop the breaker when being plugged in as there is no power until the turn on the unit so taking the cord off of the unit and plugging it into the wall would be useless as there would be no power tool attached to it therefore no way to turn ANYTHING on as it would be a plain cord with nothing attached to it. talk about asking to be electrocuted as well. so no I haven't tried that and I am not stupid enough to either.


Then just put a new trigger in and see if that helps.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> again IF THERE IS NO POWER TO THE CORD UNTIL THE SWITCH IS TURNED ON HOW ON EARTH WILL TAKING THE CORD COMPLETELY OFF OF THE TOOL GOING TO TRIP OR NOT TRIP ANYTHING? THERE IS NO SWITCH ON THE CORD AT THAT POINT IT IS JUST A EMPTY CORD PLUGGED INTO AN OUTLET HOW DOES THAT DO ANY GOOD OR FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PUT A CORD INTO THE WAY WITH NO POWER TOOL ATTACHED TO IT WHOOPIE.
> 
> *as far as by passing the switch again I don't know how to do that and again IF THERE IS NO SWITCH TO TURN THE UNIT ON THE UNIT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IF IT CAN'T BE TURNED ON IN THE FIRST PLACE HOW CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING OUT. OH LOOK I CAN PLUG IN A TOOL TO THE WALL THAT HAS NO WAY OF TURNING ON.*
> 
> ...


Iver...PAY ATTENTION AND THINK.... Now, if you do not know how to jump (substitute) the switch, then that is some very basic issue and you are unlikely going to be able to replace the switch if that is a source of your leakage. Again, the point is not to leave the plug in the wall to a saw with no switch. Jump it (substitute a switch) to see if the saw then works. WOOOPEE.
If your saw then works, it is your switch that was bad...I hope that makes sense to you.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

There ya go!! You'll spend more than the cost of a GFCI breaker to have someone look at the saw, let alone fix it (and it ain't broke). No one is ridiculing you. I'm just trying as best I can to get you to try something that will work and will save you time and money.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

lhversaw said:


> I guess I need to find a tool repair person to get this diagnosed as all I seem to be getting is ridiculed and given temporary solutions or flat out being given ideas that only make sense to those giving them. Like I said red neck fixes and that is not why I came here


Iver....that honestly buddy might be a good way to go.

Good luck to you

(I'm not sure you will want to...but let us know how that works out:wink2::smile


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Chandler make up your mind 1st you say it isn't broke then you admit that it probably is then you say again it isn't your solution only makes sense to someone who doesn't want to fix it. 


Dad: we're buying a new car
Mom: why we bought this one yesterday 
Dad: because my laptop broke so I need to replace my car.

Chandler that is how much sense your solution makes. It isn't the breaker EVERYTHING ELSE WORKS FINE AND DID ALL DAY YESTERDAY THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

I honestly wish I never came here. All you guys have done is ridicule me or given the type of solutions that show you rather let things rot than actually fix them right. I hope you don't help everyone like this cause if you do this forum won't last.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lhversaw said:


> I honestly wish I never came here. All you guys have done is ridicule me or given the type of solutions that show you rather let things rot than actually fix them right. I hope you don't help everyone like this cause if you do this forum won't last.


You have not seen ridiculing yet but give it time we will get there. :devil3:


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I never said the saw was faulty. I was just helping you to diagnose what you thought was the problem by diving into the case of the saw. I still say there is nothing wrong with it, and the AFCI breaker is too sensitive and a GFCI breaker will stop the tripping.

I"m sorry our answers made you feel badly. We haven't ridiculed you, but it seems afte 60 posts some of it would sink in. Instead your demeanor changed and you started yelling (all caps) out of frustration. You have been presented with simple diagnosis of the saw up to but not including the motor replacement. You have chosen to buck that because you don't know how to remove the switch. OK. Then a suggestion to remove a known nuisance trip device and replace it with a more stable one has fallen on deaf ears. Yet you want to blame us for the answers that you don't want to hear.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Chandler do you go buy a new car when your coffee maker stops working right? My guess is no. So why would I buy a new breaker to replace a already new one when a tool quits working properly? That is as senseless as it gets


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Dang, son, you ain't listening, are you? The new breaker you have is a known nuisance trip breaker. Replacing it with a known GFCI less trip breaker will solve your problems. When my car totally craps out, I go buy a new car. THAT is the analogy you need to know about. Your tool hasn't quit working.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Chandler if you knew what you were talking about you hick I might listen but you don't the BREAKER ISN'T THE ISSUE I PROVED THAT BY USING EVERY POWER TOOL I HAVE AND ONLY ONE ISN'T WORKING GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL THE BREAKER IS NOT THE ISSUE EITHER PROVIDE REAL HELP OR JUST SHUT UP.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

One more time before I shut up and fade away. Your other tools don't have a blade brake, and possibly less worn brushes, or the quality of the miter saw may be at issue. Regardless change............oh never mind. Tear your saw down. I'll just go back to the porch and scratch the dog's head and rock a while.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

@lhversaw, you are by far the most belligerent person I have every come across. 

I am astounded at how you refuse to try ANYTHING to troubleshoot your issue. 

Whatever is presented for you to try, you find someway to discount it if it doesn't fit into your small window of possibilities. 

For the majority of my adult life, I was essentially a troubleshooter. I was a part of a team that would track down any possible issue to resolve problem. NOTHING was discounted. Yes, sometimes things didn't work, but at least we tried. 

I was given several bonuses and a couple of promotions because I never whined about problems, I would always come up with several ideas on possible solutions. Whether it be a change in the software, updating hardware, changing providers or whatever. No matter how off the wall or out of scope. And yes, I would be turned down or proved wrong but at least I was trying.

Which is something that you appear to be unfamiliar with. 

Your analogies are abysmal. No, if your coffee maker doesn't work you don't go out and by a new car. That is absurd. 

What you do is you check to make that the sure the coffee make is plugged in, then you check to see if the power is on. If not, you check the breaker. If that is on, check for a tripped GFI. If the GFI is okay, check to make sure there is water in the back. Exhaust all probably possibilities. Try a different outlet that you have checked with another appliance. Jiggle the off/on switch, it may be dirty. You spend the time troubleshooting equal to the replacement cost. 

The same for the car. If you hear a noise, don't replace the laptop, but do get an OBDII connector and the appropriate app. Check the oil, check the coolant. Does it start? check the gas, etc.. Again, spend the time needed to troubleshoot. And to your skill level. Ask questions. Take them with the grace they were given. Try them and report back. 

Even if they may not make sense to you or if they seem not to be related, the person offering the suggestion may know more or may have heard something or may have learned the hardway that this worked. You never know. 

Ask questions, but be sincere. Ask for more information. Why would removing the cord be of any help? Because it would check to see if there is a possible internal short in the cord. You may think that it is worthless to do because there is no current flow, but when you ask that additional question, it makes sense. 

Most off all, don't be a jackass. There have been 70 posts in this thread. 39 of them have been offering suggestions, asking questions, seeking more information. The other 31 of them have been from you arguing about the suggestion, question, request for information telling us that we don't know of which we speak. 

Whether or not you believe me, or have even read this far, this forum and my fellow contributors are probably the most informed bunch of idiots I have ever come across. Some are like me, informed, experienced DIYers with years of projects behind us or knowledgeable pros who do the work daily and have taken classes, continuing education or even taught new comers to the fields. 

Show them the respect they deserve or get the hell out of here so that we can help those who need it and will actually listen.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

If there is room in the breaker box, install a dedicated circuit, just for the miter saw, using a GFCI breaker. Leave the AFCI out of the circuit. 

Problem fixed to never rear it's ugly head again, And your attitude really needs work NEWBY. 

May you have a better day elsewhere, because that attitude is not making any good impressions here.


ED


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Ed taking the power cord out of the saw and then plugging it into the outlet is not only not helpful or going to provide info but It is however stupid and just asking to be electrocuted .



And what part of THE BREAKER IS NOT THE ISSUE do you morons not get. It is a NEW breaker it has been tested it has been TESTED WITH OTHER POWER TOOLS WITH NO ISSUES.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

lhversaw said:


> Ed taking the power cord out of the saw and then plugging it into the outlet is not only not helpful or going to provide info but It is however stupid and just asking to be electrocuted .
> 
> 
> 
> And what part of THE BREAKER IS NOT THE ISSUE do you morons not get. It is a NEW breaker it has been tested it has been TESTED WITH OTHER POWER TOOLS WITH NO ISSUES.


Did you skip my lesson about buying a trash breaker in a new box from the store. Apparently so.

And the AFCI breaker is notoriously noted to be extra sensitive to certain things, and maybe your other tools are not producing the one thing that trips the sensitivity of this one. 

Your attitude has just closed any more discussion from my camp.

HAVE A GOOD LIFE Y'ALL.


ED


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

lhversaw said:


> Ed taking the power cord out of the saw and then plugging it into the outlet is not only not helpful or going to provide info but It is however stupid and just asking to be electrocuted .
> 
> 
> 
> And what part of THE BREAKER IS NOT THE ISSUE do you morons not get. It is a NEW breaker it has been tested it has been TESTED WITH OTHER POWER TOOLS WITH NO ISSUES.


 @lhversaw I hope by now you have read my post. In it, I stated why you would want to remove the power cord to test it. We assume that you would take ordinary precautions and wrap electrical tape or some other means around the ends of the electrical connectors to prevent electrocution. Obviously we were incorrect in our assumptions. We gave credit where none was due.

So, to make it clear. You need to test the power cord to make sure that there is not some latent internal short in it. To do this, please follow these steps. 

1) Unplug the MITER saw. (Just want to make sure I name it correctly. 
2) REMOVE the power cord from the MITER SAW
3) While putting the LOOSE ELECTRICAL ENDS in your mouth
4) Plug the POWER CORD into the Protected outlet. 
5) Since you are so sure the Breaker controlling the outlet is operating correctly, you should have survived without any problem. 

Yet you persist on calling us "Morons" for bringing up there may be an issue with the breaker. Dude, you can't have it both ways. 

We are not giving you red-neck fixes, (Or Blue-Neck for our Canuck friends) as you so, in your oh so bitingly words call them. 

We are giving you ways to trouble shoot the problem. 

You refuse to acknowledge any possibility of there being an issue with the breaker. Not one iota. Not even an inkling of a bit. Because it doesn't fit your paradigm. Because it works on all of your other tools. Even though the miter saw has something the others don't. 

When given other things to try to rule out if they may be the culprit, you piss on them as well. 

You do NOT understand the tenets of troubleshooting. And for that I feel sorry for you. And I pity you. And any relationship you may have for they are probably either short lived or very troubled.


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## lhversaw (Aug 3, 2019)

Sorry i came here i mistakenly thought I could get real help from real people. Instead i get a bunch of @ss h o l e s that insist that the ONE THING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN RULED OUT is the issue. This is the worst experience I've ever had on a forum you guys are not helpful your condescending and a buch of jerks. I will find help from someone who is actually qualified to do so enjoy your shortlived hick gathering.


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## yardmullet (Jan 6, 2018)

lhversaw said:


> Sorry i came here i mistakenly thought I could get real help from real people. Instead i get a bunch of @ss h o l e s that insist that the ONE THING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN RULED OUT is the issue. This is the worst experience I've ever had on a forum you guys are not helpful your condescending and a buch of jerks. I will find help from someone who is actually qualified to do so enjoy your shortlived hick gathering.



And, just a FYI. "Country Cousin" is preferable to "red neck" or "hick":smile:


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

lhversaw said:


> Sorry i came here i mistakenly thought I could get real help from real people. Instead i get a bunch of @ss h o l e s that insist that the ONE THING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN RULED OUT is the issue. This is the worst experience I've ever had on a forum you guys are not helpful your condescending and a buch of jerks. I will find help from someone who is actually qualified to do so enjoy your shortlived hick gathering.


 @lhversaw
Not only are you belligerent, you are also rude, narrow minded and single focused. 

We have given you other things to try to narrow down where the problem is. Yet YOU choose to focus on the one thing that seems to anger you the most. 

Why is that? Would you care to enlighten us on your single mindedness?

Have you checked the brushes to see if they needed changing?

Have you gone through the wiring to see if it had any gunk in it?

Can you tell us if you have done ANYTHING to try and narrow down what may be causing the problem with your miter saw? 

Did you plug your miter saw into another outlet that was not connected to the combo breaker? What were the results?


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Anybody suggest replacing the brushes? Cheap, and can't hurt. Worn brushes can trigger arc faults. Worth a try.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bigplanz said:


> Anybody suggest replacing the brushes? Cheap, and can't hurt. Worn brushes can trigger arc faults. Worth a try.


 We are starting the club of people who have suggested , and now you are a member. Mention the trigger and you will be just another ******* like the rest of us. :biggrin2:
I sure hope this doesn't hurt his feelings, because I would sooner just make him angry.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Two brushes on mine. One brush cover shown in the picture, one on the other side of the saw. Put a screwdriver in the slot, unscrew the cover, pull the brushes. If they are worn, replace them. 

Mine doesn't trip my GFCI, but it isn't also an AFCI. If it were me, I would run a 12 AWG extension cord to another non-GFCI/AFCI outlet, but I don't use my miter saw very often. If I used it a lot, I would tap into the circuit and install a single receptacle just for it. Put a "Non-GFCI protected" label on it. Just going by memory, so I might be wrong, but I think that is code compliant if the receptacle is at least 4-feet above the floor, is single plug, with a cover, and labeled. Code allows this for freezers, refrigerators, etc. that are prone to tripping GFCI/AFCI circuits. My sump pump and freezer in the basement are on these non-protected circuits. Don't want to lose a freezer full of food or flood basement due to a tripped circuit.

Check with your jurisdiction first, though.


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## yardmullet (Jan 6, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> We are starting the club of people who have suggested , and now you are a member. Mention the trigger and you will be just another ********* like the rest of us. :biggrin2:
> I sure hope this doesn't hurt his feelings, because I would sooner just make him angry.



Neal,
I wonder why he chose to delineate *******. Some part of himself he dislikes? 

yardmullet
aka CountryCousin


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

I am thinking he took his MITER saw and went home. 

Poor @lhversaw. He just couldn't get anyone to see his point of view (Especially @de_ganorg, @Nealtw and @chandler48)
@Bigplanz, OMG, you brought up breakers and outlets. HOW DARE YOU!! That is @lhversaw biggest peat peave. Us MORONS just can't get it through out thick *******, er, country cousins skulls that he has PROVED that it can't be the breaker. 

He plugged in ALL of the other tools into that outlet and they ran fine. Of course out of all the tools the MITER saw is the only one with a blade brake. So, it can't be the breaker that is at fault as all the other tools ran fine. 

We MORONS haven't given him any other ways to determine where the problem may lie so obviously we have no idea how to solve any other problems. 

At first he did try our suggestions. Plugging it into an outlet not controlled by by the combo breaker (worked ok). 

He tried his other tools on the combo breaker outlet, even ones with a "trashed" cord, and nothing tripped the combo breaker. Not sure what a Trashed cord meant, but this was to see if the arcing created by a brush motor would trip an AFCI breaker. He concluded that it wasn't the breaker at fault. 

Ed, Neal and others gave suggestions as to what to check for and how to check including turning the lights off to see if it arced, checking outlets, etc..

He did open the saw's handle and it was really dirty. He did not say if he cleaned it out or not, but he indicated that it would be easy to change the switch and cord. He said he would change the cord, but he didn't. 

He did turn out the lights but didn't see any arcing. He said it would cost $5.99 to change the brushes but he didn't say if he was going to do it or not. He wasn't sure if it was the brushes, switch or cord. Chandler pushed the breaker switch again. 

He got mad at Chandler for pushing the breaker and not really offering a solution. Neal came up with some tests to determine where the problem may lie. (I thought it was a wonderfully written and a great troubleshooting technique. ) @MTN REMODEL LLC relayed a similar situation and what he did as a workaround. 

I came in and made some comments and I mistakenly referred to the MITER saw as a table saw. (That is why I capitalize MITER saw)

About this time, he stopped listening and started focusing on the breaker. He also didn't understand what Neal was getting at. 

He wanted A$$hat to remove the cord and just plug the cord in. Neal assumed that idiot would take normal precautions to prevent injury. That however proved incorrect. Idiot chastised us for even suggesting plugging in a power cord with loose connections in as it would cause possible electrocutions. 

I pointed out in my usual flip way why he needed to check the cord and the way to do it. 

And now, it seems that lonely boy took his saw and left for better grounds. 

Well, I say good riddance. And I want to thank everyone for all their great suggestions. It will help ME in trouble shooting my own problems down the road. 

Ktown


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Ktown: My grandfather had a favorite saying that fits this situation.

" You can lead a JACKASS to water, but you cannot make him drink it." 

I too wonder if that individual, handles all of life's problems the same way, if so, it must be a real lonely individual indeed.

ED


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> He just couldn't get anyone to see his point of view


I know. I'm sorry. I let my colloquialisms drag y'all into the dawg yard. Now all y'all are hicks and a$$holes. Maybe he'll come back one more time with more bits of his revelry to enlighten us.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Some motors have trouble with gfci, I am not surprised the have trouble the acrcfault breakers too. I will be impressed when saws and motors come with a label to use them with these breakers, then you might know they made an effort to solve this problem.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

We trimmed out a new house that already had a CO and all the electrical was in place. Nice. Or so I thought. I found out they were totally compliant with AFCI/GFCI combo breakers. PLUS every circuit requiring GFCI had a GFCI receptacle. So not only were our saws tripping the AFCI feature, as soon as it tripped, the GFCI receptacle would trip. It was a nightmare. We finally found a non GFCI receptacle, changed the AFCI combo to a GFCI breaker and things ran smoothly.

Hey, but don't tell @lhversaw , it may hurt his feelings.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I think this thread has run it's course.

Remember the rules about name calling and disrespecting other members!
This thread is now closed.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

de-nagorg said:


> Ktown: My grandfather had a favorite saying that fits this situation.
> 
> " You can lead a JACKASS to water, but you cannot make him drink it."
> 
> ...


Ed I thought that saying was: "you can lead a jackass to water, but you can't make him take a bath" :vs_laugh: Sorry


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