# B Vent question



## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

Here's a pic of one of the connections of the pipe in question (sorry for the quality - this was the only angle I could get).

On the female side, there are three slots that appear to align with tabs on the male side (you can see one on the left of the pic). Is anyone familiar with this brand of b vent pipe?


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

If you don't use the same fittings they don't lock together properly. Now the cap may just slide over the end I'm not sure of what type setup you have. You could switch to another brand if you used an adjustable collar but if the only thing bad is the cap why not get the correct one and be done with it


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I get a local chimney repair company (Wpg chimney service) to replace them. Most have a clamp device to hold the sections together. You may end up replacing the whole chimney if you cannot find the manufacturers label and contact them for parts/sections.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

yuri said:


> I get a local chimney repair company (Wpg chimney service) to replace them. Most have a clamp device to hold the sections together. You may end up replacing the whole chimney if you cannot find the manufacturers label and contact them for parts/sections.


Thanks for the feedback. I'm trying to avoid having to replace the whole chimney, but I realize that might happen. There's no clamp on this model - just the interlocking tabs as mentioned.

I had a roof guy here, and he said it looks like an emco, but they seem to just be a distributor. Anyone familiar with them?


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

BayouRunner said:


> If you don't use the same fittings they don't lock together properly. Now the cap may just slide over the end I'm not sure of what type setup you have. You could switch to another brand if you used an adjustable collar but if the only thing bad is the cap why not get the correct one and be done with it


I'm going to have to get a new cap as well, so that won't be an issue. So an adjustable collar to connect different brands of pipe is a possible solution?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

EMCO are you in Canada?

They are a huge plumbing and heating HVAC wholesaler in Canada. BIG company.


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

billyhoyle said:


> I'm going to have to get a new cap as well, so that won't be an issue. So an adjustable collar to connect different brands of pipe is a possible solution?


Well you can switch to different type vents with an adjustable collar but I'll try to explain. If the first two sections were bvent coming from lets say the furnace. You would have to have a bvent adjustable collar to switch to another type vent. It has to be that way so they can tie together. The coupling slides over the male end of the next fitting. All I ever use is bvent fittings. Not that they are any better, just the most common here.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

yuri said:


> EMCO are you in Canada?
> 
> They are a huge plumbing and heating HVAC wholesaler in Canada. BIG company.


Yep, Calgary. Any idea if they sell retail (as in, can I walk in and buy some b vent pipe)?


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

BayouRunner said:


> Well you can switch to different type vents with an adjustable collar but I'll try to explain. If the first two sections were bvent coming from lets say the furnace. You would have to have a bvent adjustable collar to switch to another type vent. It has to be that way so they can tie together. The coupling slides over the male end of the next fitting. All I ever use is bvent fittings. Not that they are any better, just the most common here.


It's all b vent - the section I'm replacing is b vent, and I'll be replacing it with the same.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Must be same manufacturer.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

billyhoyle said:


> Yep, Calgary. Any idea if they sell retail (as in, can I walk in and buy some b vent pipe)?


Nyet, nope they are contractor only.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

yuri said:


> Nyet, nope they are contractor only.


Bummer, well thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll keep searching to see if I can figure out who makes this pipe.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

So , the roofer guy said he thinks it might be Emco ? I dont think Emco has thier own brand of b vent. He might of been thinking about Ecco. If you could post a picture of the rain cap , I may be able to tell you . It does not really look like Ecco though . If you could find a sticker on it somewhere....


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

Thanks Greg, I'll try and get a pic of the cap tonight. I looked for a sticker or a stamp on the pipe that's visible in the basement and attic, but no dice.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

If you could post a clear pic of the rain cap including the top portion of the termination section above the roof, would definitely make it easier to identify. There were only a hand full of common b vent brands in use in Calgary and the surrounding areas over the last 58 or so years and I am some what familiar with most of them. The ran cap in particular should tell me. Include the age of your home may be of some help too.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

Hey Greg, thanks for the info. I was only able to snap a pic from the ground last night, but I'll get a better one this weekend if you need it. I believe the house was built in the late 50s, but the furnace is more like 20 years old, so it's likely they replaced the chimney at that time too.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> but the furnace is more like 20 years old, so it's likely they replaced the chimney at that time too.


 If it cost mores than a couple hundred bucks to do this repair, you should consider ditching the b-vent, putting in a condensing furnace - funds permitting.

The furnace and water heater are probably on borrowing time - just throwing good money after bad.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The truth is in Canada when you need a new furnace you will have to get a high efficiency furnace which does not use a chimney. No more 80% efficient units allowed. Must be 92 or 95% efficient or higher. However if you plan to keep using a regular water heater you need a chimney. But you can run a 4" single wall liner inside that one and have it poke out the top.

Running a elec water heater may be very expensive as I lived in Calgary and elec is expensive. In MB it is less than 8c/kwh so we use lots of them.

That chimney looks original to the house. Takes over 30 years B4 it gets that rusty.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Direct vent sealed combustion water heater out the side if practical, no chimney to worry about, near zero monoxide risk, no draft hood venting your hard earned heated air outside constantly. 


Best water heater type available - every other type has disadvantages. Not the most efficient - there are some efficient tank and tankless units, but efficiency is gained at the expense of needing electricity and having lots of expensive parts to fail.

B-vents and chimneys are going obsolete for gas fired equipment and I say good riddance.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Metalbestos b vent with a Belmont top , I would guess 6 inch? Now my question for you is, has the rust penetrated through or can be crushed? My guess is that it has yet to do either. I have come across several of these in the recent past and most have seemed to be surface corrosion from years of warm flue gasses condensing on the outer jacket of the b vent. You can likely apply a few coats of Tremclad rust paint , black or charcoal grey. That should outlast the life of the furnace . If the furnace needs replacing in the next 5-8 years the heating contractor will vent the new furnace out the side or rear of your house , orphaning the water heater . In that case they will run a liner through the b vent to separately vent the water heater with its own little rain cap. At that point the corrosion under the paint is of little concern without the furnace dumping mass amounts of corrosive flue gas all winter. I see lots of other heating contractors painting rusted b vent termination pipes just as I described. Not only for aesthetics , but to buy several more years of service from the top section of pipe. Metalbestos was bought out by Selkirk sometime in the late 80s , so I dont know that the new Selkirk would fit with 1950s Metalbestos b vent. If the corroded portion has not been compromised, I would elect to simply paint it . Definitely re-seal around the storm collar too.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

A lot of the problem with these older b vent systems was that the rain caps had a tendency to allow flue gasses to drift downward on to b vents outer galvanized steel surface, being that the flue gasses are very humid and extremely corrosive they would rust. The Belmont rain cap in the photo was phased out by 1972 in favor of a rain cap that incorporated a lower shield or drip collar to direct flue gasses away from the b vent . These caps with the drip collar have remained unchanged and are still sold today under the Selkirk brand name, 45 years later and no rust under those rain caps.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Selkirk is a city near Winnipeg and yeah we had/have lots of Selkirk chimneys and they were very well made. Mom had one when she had a oil furnace. There is a BIG steel plant there called Manitoba Rolling mills so metal was not in short supply.

Venting water heaters out the side of the house is not as easy or userfriendly as everyone makes them out to be. Snow can build up near the vent and they can stain the siding or stucco. Some work great, others need constant checking.

A high efficiency furnace has quite a bit of power to push out the fumes and these sealed combustion water heaters can be tricky AND they are a lot more expensive.

I would not hesitate to put a 4" liner in and stay with a conventional water heater if you want. You can buy a lot of gas with the difference in cost. Shop around and compare between the types.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

I honestly cannot tell for sure by the photo you posted, but if the outer shell of the b vent has rusted through near the top you will have to replace it. I do know that the Belmont top does fit onto ECCO b vent..... I can also tell you that the inner aluminum pipe will be the same diameter from manufacturer to manufacturer , it is mostly the outer jacket that may be slightly smaller or larger and different locking systems. It is possible that a new section of Selkirk b vent might work with a few very minor modifications , given it is fastened and properly secured. If you are not comfortable doing this job yourself , you may want to consult a professional. These old b vent sections can be rather difficult to remove and it is really better if you have two people. Often the joint you would like to twist out does not ,but the joint below starts to come loose. A royal PAIN in the butt when that starts happening :vs_mad: I am all for trying to preserve and keep older gas furnaces running for a long as possible, especially if they have a standing pilot light. You likely will save $15 maybe $20 a month with a new HE furnace, but thats only 4-5 months of the year. Then you loose all the reliability of your old furnace , as the newer ones tend to shut down and lock out during cold snaps. Each $400 service call kinda throws any energy savings out the window. As for power direct vent hot water tanks, dont even get me started!!! I have spent entire work days doing nothing but drive from one end of Calgary to the other knocking frost out of the intakes to get them to fire up during cold snaps. Not to mention having to explain to very angry home owners that every time it gets cold out , they may not have hot water in the new home they just purchased. Good luck Billy.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Venting water heaters out the side of the house is not as easy or userfriendly as everyone makes them out to be. Snow can build up near the vent and they can stain the siding or stucco. Some work great, others need constant checking.


 Really? Works great for gas fireplaces - identical concept.

There are also direct vent water heaters that can be done through a chimney chase - rheem makes them. 

as u can tell I don't like appliances with draft hoods at all especially now when people are tightening up their houses making spillage more likely.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Listen to Greg, User as he and I live in the real tech world where stuff either works or it doesn't. Not the world of reading posts on the net and all the idealism the manufacturers want you to believe. We live in Canada where hoar frost/ snow etc can cause lots of problems with intakes on high efficiency furnaces and any direct vent unit.

Want to talk horror stories. Wait till you see the repair costs on these high end instant hot water heaters like Navien etc. They scale up, are expensive to fix and hard to find techs for. Fully modulating and wickedly complex but the advertising makes them sound absolutely wonderful. Out in the real world it is not the same story. They work but at a cost. Now if you are rich and money is not a issue and you want endless hot water they work great.

Sealing houses airtight by eliminating a chimney can cause BIG problems as the moisture level goes up and then you end up putting in a expensive HRV to solve a problem you created. A bit of air leaking up a 4" pipe is not a huge issue as it fresh air which you need which gets sucked back in. Nobody wants to live in a very airtight house as it is unhealthy. I have one but I use a HRV. There is no generic once size fits all advice as to what to do.

Nothing wrong with regular water heaters if a person does to want to pay the extra expense of direct vent etc and they don't have reliability problems.

PS: I lived in Calgary 12 yrs ago and left because of the bad traffic. :vs_mad:That and it is very dry and my family is mostly in Manitoba so I came back.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Sealing houses airtight by eliminating a chimney can cause BIG problems as the moisture level goes up and then you end up putting in a expensive HRV to solve a problem you created.


 Replacing uncontrolled leakage (too little leakage when it's mild and too much when it's cold) with controlled ventilation is not a problem, it's excellent - makes the house use up less energy - ventilation with heat recovery controlled by a humidistat, reduces condensation issues as warm moist air leaks out and hits cold surfaces, can reduce or eliminate the need for a humidifier.

Improves air quality by providing a clean supply of fresh air, not air that infiltrated through building materials.

Getting rid of natural draft appliances makes the house safer with zero risk of spillage.

Houses have problems like air leakage, high heat loss; fixing the problems is always an excellent idea provided that the house is treated like a system and the money is there to do it right.

Problem is that it's rarely done right, then energy retrofits are thought of as problematic.

You don't know what my background is education is nor should it matter forum - I do not just read stuff off the net and repost. 

-------------------
Tankless water heaters? No fan of those because of the complexity.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We can talk nicey nicey theory all day long but in reality VERY few people have room for a HRV and all the piping that goes with it or want to spend +$3000 to correct a problem that got created by eliminating a chimney.

Nothing wrong with giving advice about what is possible but most people just want to solve a basic problem not create a whole new climate control/comfort system.:biggrin2:

Actually that is what my company does a lot of and it usually runs $12,000 and over. Salespeople make lots of commission $$ on that also.:vs_karate:

People who come here want advice from real world Pro's and DIY HVAC dudes as well so feel free to chime in. Don't get offended when the Pro's put down some of your advice as impractical or very costly. There are LOTS of considerations where to vent a furnace/ hot water heater and HRV on a wall and stay away from doors/windows/gas meters etc so the readers need to know all about it B4 jumping to conclusions about changing to new equipment. Thats were the Pro's come in.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Oh yeah one more problem Yuri, since the elimination of b vent in new homes we now are dealing with RADON mitigation here in Alberta. Yet another head ache due to over sealing homes to the point the environment inside the is becoming more and more toxic , vinyl windows to oriented strand board off gassing. Now RADON gas mitigation is the hottest new thing put on the plumbing and HVAC trades. We run the pipe from a sub slab collection point and pipe it out doors just above the foundation the cap it off. No one knows what to do with it next as the code is relatively new, we are not yet sure if the code will require a high velocity inline fan or if they will make us pipe it to the roof open air gravity system. Kind of a two part story I guess, we still dont know what the second part of the code will require.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Greg Hahnel said:


> Oh yeah one more problem Yuri, since the elimination of b vent in new homes we now are dealing with RADON mitigation here in Alberta. Yet another head ache due to over sealing homes to the point the environment inside the is becoming more and more toxic , vinyl windows to oriented strand board off gassing. Now RADON gas mitigation is the hottest new thing put on the plumbing and HVAC trades. We run the pipe from a sub slab collection point and pipe it out doors just above the foundation the cap it off. No one knows what to do with it next as the code is relatively new, we are not yet sure if the code will require a high velocity inline fan or if they will make us pipe it to the roof open air gravity system. Kind of a two part story I guess, we still dont know what the second part of the code will require.


Here its piped above the roof, and a fan is used to pull it out of the house/collection area.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We don't have a big issue with it where I am. Supposedly near the Red River in the Osborne village area it is higher but we don't have those exhaust fan systems like in the US. In Manitoba we have a LOT of VERY dense Red River gumbo clay and glacial runoff/rocks and silt. Granite and shale are the worst for producing it which I guess we don't have.

I don't like supersealed houses. Mu Uncle had a early R2000 home with 8" walls etc back in the 80's and had to run a HRV.

I have seen drastic changes in houses and moisture levels from going from open draft diverter pilot light furnaces to the first high efficiency furnaces in the 1980's. They had a vent damper and spark and same heat exchanger but we ended up putting in fresh air pipes because windows were sweating and too much moisture. Gets even worse with a sealed combustion furnace.

My cousin moved to Calgary to follow his girlfriend who dumped him shortly after he got there. He is staying and bought a high powered snowmobile and loves the mountains and has a good job in the health care management biz. I would have stayed if my family and job situation at the time was different but it is a nice city.:wink2:


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

B-vents were eliminated at least here in ontario primarily due to cost.

Way before 90%+ became mandatory the builders here started using condensing furnaces. 

Costs a lot less than running a double wall pipe up, needing clearance, etc. 

A lot of stuff gets held on to "just because" its the way it was done before. If direct vent was the norm all along and someone had the brilliant idea to introduce natural draft stuff now, no one would except the added costs of b-vents, chimneys or the risk of spillage.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> B-vents were eliminated at least here in ontario primarily due to cost.
> 
> Way before 90%+ became mandatory the builders here started using condensing furnaces.
> 
> ...


B-Vents are still used in Ontario. Even new installs. It depends on the application. 

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

supers05 said:


> B-Vents are still used in Ontario. Even new installs. It depends on the application.
> 
> Cheers!


I would imagine so.

Water heaters and unit heaters etc still need them.:wink2:


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

B vent is still used in Alberta in commercial, just residential the code phased it out completely in 2009. Unless of coarse it is for a radiant tube,unit heater..... Its for the better , they told us. Less CO2 emissions no pilot lights, they told us. Better for the environment , they told us. Dont say you dont like it till you try it, they told us. They - the governing body I guess??? How is it then in this day and age of enviro -nazi green washing, that you can still not only buy but drive these MAMMOTH suv type vehicles like LIncolnNavigator or Toyota Sequioa???? Im not sure of the litres/km , but I believe these vehicles get around the same fuel economy as the giant fuel guzzling pigs of the early 70s. I see mothers driving their kids to preschool in a f 250 supercab or Dodge ram quad cab. So I guess any vehicle that cannot conform to emissions standards is simply classified as a TRUCK. Basically a legal loophole I guess that a rav 4 or a acura mdx is classified as a truck [which they clearly are not] is to get away with an unacceptably ridiculous fuel consumption. So as we try to make certain systems in our homes more efficient, other industries are recklessly going in the opposite direction. Incredible, to say the least.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Builders stopped using B vent to save on space where I am and make the houses more air tight. We have cheap elec so elec water htrs are no problem. But it added the problem of too airtight houses needing HRVs or some ventilation.

The truck issue is hilarious. We had those massive Dodge Rams for a few years but as gas kept going up they kinda went extinct along with the Hummer. That and Ford and GM make nicer trucks it seems. Still see guys buying lots of Fords and GM trucks but most women are driving sedans now. That and Honda CRVS or crossovers that are AWD they like.

Alberta is more *******/truck happy/cowboy looking so trucks may be more popular.:biggrin2:


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

yuri said:


> I would imagine so.
> 
> Water heaters and unit heaters etc still need them.:wink2:


Most water heaters in new resi construction here are power vented.

Gas fireplaces generally direct vent.

The industry like most will hold on to doing the same thing over and over and will not change without pressure from external forces. 

Old habits die hard.

The changes like getting rid of standing pilot furnaces, other natural draft appliances, 10 seer a/c etc were very necessary to save precious finite fossil fuel.

The regs are needed, granted some of the new regs on the table are more problematic than helpful. The low hanging fruit have been picked.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I have nothing against them but they are more expensive and for a existing install like our OP there is no need to change.

I have done and seen power vented tanks getting replaced and they are a pain. 10 yrs later when they leak the new tank has different dimensions or shape or a different brand fits different and then the venting needs changing. Had one where we had to move the gas line because the water lines would not line up and the venting was in the way etc. There is NO standard configuration for them between brands unlike conventional gas htrs that are all the same.

Pros and cons to everything and the consumer has to pay more to make them fit.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Yup , its ridiculous sometimes. Occasionally I get a service call at a brand new home , they claim that their last utility bill was waaay too high and that the furnace and water heater must be using too much natural gas. Then I laugh when I pull up and see a BMWx3 , Cadillac Escalade and a Denali parked in the driveway:vs_bulb: Yeah, I dont think its your appliances you have to worry about costing an arm and a leg on fuel.....


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, we don't use the HRV's here in Louisiana, well I've not seen one and not been asked to install one. When I looked it up today I saw the Lennox one and they advertised using your existing heat to bring the the cold air to temperature. Anyway I was wondering if you could enlighten me on this process and how it actually works. Whenever we do a commercial install we have to provide fresh air but it is nothing more than fresh air vent from the roof usually. We really don't fool with the commercial to much other than service but I imagine its just a matter of time.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Most installers and techs do not like HE furnaces or the 2pipe power vented water heaters compared to the older atmospheric vented models we installed for many years for several reasons. One reason is the Installation has become much more involved, way more material to vent them fighting to get the proper clearances from fresh air intakes meter regulators. If you think b vent was a big expense, consider the cost of up to 14 lengths of 636 plus fittings to vent both the furnace and hwt. Another reason is the atmospheric vented appliances w/standing pilot provided years - decades of uninterupted trouble free service, some would need the occasional fan belt or thermocouple. I never ever got called back to a draft hood water heater until fvir came out. Then the nightmare really began with the early single pipe power vented models,2004ish try and get parts for those models now good luck.Both the furnaces and water heaters are plagued with electronics and sensors which are absolutely necessary, but as soon as one possible anomaly is sensed the the appliance shuts down and may even lock out. Plus the number of {wearing} parts ie ignitor, inducer motor - flame sensor even the boards tend to crap out way too frequently at $600 a pop. 2 years ago we had installed hundreds of A.O. Smith h2o heaters with defective intellivent control valves that would randomly lock out, after phoning the manufacturer the controls had to be replaced. A.O. Smith was responsible and gave us the parts at no cost, but we had to pass the labour costs on to the home owners which is kinda BS as this was a warranty issue. Oh yeah , then when it gets cold we get sooooo many calls for no heat no hot water from frosted vents that there is no possible way to keep up some days. We even had e few cases of carbon monoxide detectors being set off in an ajacent home from a mechanical air intake sucking in furnace from the other house. The reason direct vent fire places have few issues , most have a standing pilot. they fall within the 75% or less efficiency category and the exhaust is hot. the hot exhaust is well above the dew point and keeps the intake warm so no issues.No electronics either. Yes HE and power direct vent are the future, but unfortunately they have very long long road ahead of them before they can be considered as dependable or come even close to being as reliable as the natural draft appliances they have replaced.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

BayouRunner said:


> Just out of curiosity, we don't use the HRV's here in Louisiana, well I've not seen one and not been asked to install one. When I looked it up today I saw the Lennox one and they advertised using your existing heat to bring the the cold air to temperature. Anyway I was wondering if you could enlighten me on this process and how it actually works. Whenever we do a commercial install we have to provide fresh air but it is nothing more than fresh air vent from the roof usually. We really don't fool with the commercial to much other than service but I imagine its just a matter of time.


Lifebreath makes them for Lennox. Google Lifebreath HRV.

Also Google: how does a HRV work

Basically they have a aluminum core and the warm stale exhaust house air passes over one side and the colder outside fresh air passes over the other side and absorbs about 80% of the heat if I remember the specs. In warmer climates they use a ERV energy recovery ventilator which has a porous core and allows some dehumidification thru evaporation.:wink2:

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/heat-recovery-ventilation.html

http://lifebreath.com/


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

There are Pros and Cons to high efficiency vs old school pilot. I have done both since 1978.

Lots of problems with pilot lights going out from drafts. You can get downdrafts from chimneys and CO poisoning. Fan belts, motors, lots of worn bearings and noise calls, fan controls etc etc. So no they were not glorious maintenance free units. Labor costs were a LOT cheaper back then so it seems more expensive to repair today.

Yeah they could make a 20 yr circuit board but our cheap throw a way society accepts junk as the norm. Same with fridges and stoves etc.

I can heat my 1350 sq ft house in Wpg which can get to -30 to -40C with 30 mph winds for 6 weeks in a row with a 75M furnace. In the old days I would need a 105 or 120M. It is cheaper to run. However I do my own repairs and yeah I would not want to pay +$600 for a board. But car repairs are even more etc etc.

It is a LOT better balanced than the old wobbly fan drives and I rarely get vibration/noise calls. Also comes standard with a 3 ton blower. No need for 4" motor pulleys and 1/2 hp motors and more vibration.

However the Lennox G8-90/105/120 were some of the nicest quietest most reliable furnaces made. Then you had all these lightweight cracking heat exchanger ICGs etc once the market changed.

The Maytag days/man are dead and gone. He was a actor (Gordon Jump) not a real guy.:wink2:

I am glad to live in MB where we have lots of cheap/reasonable priced elec so hot water heating is not a big issue. No need for thru the wall venting water htrs.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Blaming government for equipment that breaks down a lot isn't right.

It's not the efficiency standards, it's the manufacturers doing everything they can to cut costs, the contractors who probably beet down the manufacturer and the homeowners who beet down the contractor. 

Everyone wants cheap.

Furnaces, tvs, other consumer goods have gone down in price and quality. 

Housing costs, energy has gone way up; necessities are more expensive 'cause people have to buy them regardless while luxuries have gotten cheaper to get people to buy them. 

It's possible to build a very reliable high efficiency furnace with reasonable service costs...

Use direct spark ignition.

Quality circuit boards with american made components - good relays. 
Also having a standard circuit board design for multiple makes/types - not having manufacturers custom design them, then charge an arm and a leg.

Quality inducer motors - build an inducer with a bigger wheel and it can run at a lower rpm. Use good quality motors with bearings which can be oiled rather than the disposable motors or today.

High grade stainless steel tubular heat exchangers like rheem used to use; no crimp rings to pop, no rust.

No crappy third world parts made by slaves - everything from canada/us, germany, uk, etc.

It may cost a few hundred more, but will last forever if taken care of.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Yes there definitely were some bad ones from the past, the ultimate p.o.s furnaces were made here in Airdrie Alberta. Bow valley industries FLAME MONSTER {flame master} lol.:vs_lol: These large green monsters made most service man cringe, they suffered from dangerous delayed ignition that sometimes would blow the pilot out to large holes appearing in the heat exchangers. In 1998 my mother bought a house that had one, she had it running a few times . After it ran a few minutes the high limit would cut the burner then re light, then the pilot would end up blowing out from the bizzarre delay of ignition resulting in no flame at all but gas pouring out until the pilot valve would drop out. Plus the large hole right at the front of the heat exchanger that the home inspector missed. That furnace was soon removed with a whisper heat lennox in its place{only 1 $450 board in 10 years not bad?}. Yes sometimes pilots would go out and need relighting , pullys and shaft bearings would wear often {usually due to some type of debris sucked into the squirrel cage. Fan limit switches would go out of kilter occasionally even sieze.Even the ICG heat exchangers cracking could not have been that bad because there are still thousands in service from the early 80s. That being said , all of the problems the older units had {minus the FLAME MONSTER} pretty minor considering now you can have a tech on site for 5 days in a row to diagnose and correct a problem and still have that same furnace blowing fuses 3 days later. Most companies spend so much time and resources on trouble shooting and return trips to find a reoccurring problem that wont rear its ugly head , that sometimes it is just easier to remove the entire piece of equiptment and just put another new one in. Even though the one you just removed was pretty much brand new. Thats the industry though......lain:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah the good ole Flame THROWERs, flamer masters of disaster.:biggrin2::vs_karate::biggrin2:

We had a few of those in Wpg and I hated them. Had a new one blow the door off the front of the furnace. Scared the lady so bad she had to call from the neighbors and waited for me. I shuffled the burners left to right and somehow got it to stop throwing flames. They were nasty and junk. 

I agree the furnaces are complex and yeah there are not too many highly skilled techs to fix them. Personally I like Rheem and the spark ignition and put a 2 stage one in my Sister's house. Their boards seem to last at least 15 yrs or more vs the 10 you get with everyone else.

Once you get into the modulating furnaces the costs skyrocket and I would not own one or a ECM motor. They work great for comfort and if you are rich and want that stuff go 4 it. I am a meat and potatoes KISS keep it simple stupid guy. I don't make the industry rules or come up with the trends.

Flame Master made unit heaters which seemed OK and I sold some of them.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

Greg, amazing, many thanks for the info. That's pretty impressive that you can recognize a rain cap from 40+ years ago! 

Unfortunately, the outer layer is rusted through on the side opposite this picture, so painting it isn't an option. If, hypothetically, a Selkirk or Ecco section of B-Vent has a less than ideal fit, is there some kind of pipe clamp that can wrap around the joint and create a seal? I guess my only other option would be to replace the whole chimney, which seems like a waste if it won't be used by the next furnace which, as you mentioned, will likely be less than 10 years down the road.



Greg Hahnel said:


> Metalbestos b vent with a Belmont top , I would guess 6 inch? Now my question for you is, has the rust penetrated through or can be crushed? My guess is that it has yet to do either. I have come across several of these in the recent past and most have seemed to be surface corrosion from years of warm flue gasses condensing on the outer jacket of the b vent. You can likely apply a few coats of Tremclad rust paint , black or charcoal grey. That should outlast the life of the furnace . If the furnace needs replacing in the next 5-8 years the heating contractor will vent the new furnace out the side or rear of your house , orphaning the water heater . In that case they will run a liner through the b vent to separately vent the water heater with its own little rain cap. At that point the corrosion under the paint is of little concern without the furnace dumping mass amounts of corrosive flue gas all winter. I see lots of other heating contractors painting rusted b vent termination pipes just as I described. Not only for aesthetics , but to buy several more years of service from the top section of pipe. Metalbestos was bought out by Selkirk sometime in the late 80s , so I dont know that the new Selkirk would fit with 1950s Metalbestos b vent. If the corroded portion has not been compromised, I would elect to simply paint it . Definitely re-seal around the storm collar too.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

I guess what I'm really wondering is how tight a seal you need between the two sections' outer pipes. I'm comfortable bending/tweaking the connections so they fit together but some guidance as to how airtight this needs to be (I'm assuming not very, but would like to be sure - safety first!).


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

The inner pipe is the most important. It's standard. The outer is for insulation effect. Each piece is more or less a self contained "unit" so an airtight fit isn't required. We would normally use silicone between the sections. (apply to the female side, it's less messy that way) Screws aren't really allowed, but they are used when the need arises. Use short screws (1/2" or less) so that you don't puncture the inner pipe. 

Cheers!


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Billy you actually have got two options here. Ecco or Selkirk may actually work without too much trouble , as I mentioned that belmont cap does fit onto Ecco b vent . I have also installed many Selkirk b vent caps onto Ecco b vent pipe, and Ecco caps into Selkirk b vent. As long as you can get the inner and outer parts to slide together almost completetly there are very short screws available specifically for b vent that only go through the outer shell to hold the sections together but wont penetrate the inner aluminum Also I have seen a few contractors make a patch piece of metal that covers the top 6-8 inches of the pipe below the cap ,as long as the edges are sealed well with rtv high temp silicone to prevent water infiltration I suppose it would be an effective solution that could work for several years. I would suggest replacing the cap though, the current Ecco model available at rona would be perfect as it has a large lower drip collar that would keep rain well away from the top of the patch. the only thing is that the Ecco cap wont lock in the same as it should into Ecco b vent so you would then have to put at least one sheet metal screw through the b vent to penetrate through the neck part of the rain cap to keep strong winds from prying it out of the b vent pipe, not really supposed to put a screw through b vent sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to make things work. If the inner aluminum liner is 6 inch , then you want a rain cap that fits into 6 inch pipe. Not sure which route you want to go here both ways have disadvantages , I suppose depends on your comfort level too. Post any questions. p.s. I would give you $20 for that Belmont rain top if it comes off in good condition:wink2:


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Billy, if you want to know if another type of b vent will fit without first having to twist the last joint in the attic apart, get a short length of Ecco available at a few local stores. Then carefully remove the Belmont top by turning a little band that is sort of interlinked into the lower collar that fits over the b vent, it may need some encouragement Wd40 then gently twist it off once that little band has rotated enough to allow for some movement. Now you will have exposed the raw end of the b vent that you could now determine whether or not a different piece will work with it or not, do be gentle though as the rusted portion may be somewhat brittle. Doing this may give you some indication as to how easy or difficult it will be to fit these two pieces together. Or simply go with a clean cut sheet metal patch to conceal the hole.


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

To be honest though I think if you do not want to do the full wrap around patch, and really want to poke a section of b vent through the roof. After a little more in depth thought, I figure the best way to go about it require a b-to-c vent adapter. It is very short piece of b vent with an extension of the liner pipe that sticks out past the outer shell by 4 inches this aluminum extension should slide into the existing b vent you may need to trim an inch or 2 off the extension as when it is in as far as you can get it you want the outer insulating shells of the new adapter and old vent touching . then the longer section will just twist onto the other end of the adapter piece, important though you must find or fabricate a few simple brackets to secure the outer shell of the new adapter to the outer shell of the old metalbestos b vent. Otherwise when the roof is redone or a major windstorm hits that joint could easily pull out, remember use really short screws made for b vent. You will likely need B-to-C vent adapter, 5 foot length or what ever you figure you will need to get the top of the pipe 24 inches from the roof surface, storm collar and a rain cap. seal the storm collar to the b vent pipe with rtv silicone. You can purchase all of the above at Wolsely HVAC ECCO manufacturing brand. I believe they sell to the public, near the Blackfoot inn. Im guessing the existing b vent you have is six inch so all the new stuff will need to be six inch too , but measure for yourself to confirm the size.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You may be able to buy #6 x 3/8" screws at HDepot or possibly #8. Pretty sure I have some #6 x 3/8" in my garage.


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## billyhoyle (Apr 18, 2016)

You guys are amazing! Thanks for all the responses. Greg, you can have the Belmont rain cap for nothing when I get it off. I'll shoot you a pm in the next couple of weeks.

Cheers!


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## Greg Hahnel (Apr 20, 2016)

Cool, sounds good Billy. Good luck.


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