# Roof leak nightmare..... it won't stop



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

You’re on the right track with the hose, you made it leak.
I’d try again until you isolate it.
Your other picture didn’t load.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

thanks, I re-uploaded the photo again. I hope that worked


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Where exactly in that last picture did you find the leak with the hose?
Anywhere near the wall flashing?

On a side note, your gutters don't make sense. You are keeping the runoff off the deck with the gutter but allowing the downspout to pour in that area? It's going to wear that roof out fast right there. Makes more sense to run the downspout into the gutter. I'd also make a big 24ga 6" box gutter for that small area. 
If you leave it the way it is at least you should have an additional sacrificial sheet torched over the existing roof right there to preserve the actual roof.

I would redo the gutter and ds


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

OldNBroken said:


> Where exactly in that last picture did you find the leak with the hose?
> Anywhere near the wall flashing?
> 
> On a side note, your gutters don't make sense. You are keeping the runoff off the deck with the gutter but allowing the downspout to pour in that area? It's going to wear that roof out fast right there. Makes more sense to run the downspout into the gutter. I'd also make a big 24ga 6" box gutter for that small area.
> ...


Thanks for your reply! I'll edit the photo to add more details:










We pointed the downspout out to gutter guy and it will be re-routed to meet that gutter instead of running onto the roof. However we are certain that isn't the source of the leak, as we ran water extensively all over the torch-down roof and could not get it to leak.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Didn't think that was the leak, just pointing out that it's not a good setup the way it is.

Likely suspect is the wall flashing on the upper roof next to your blue smudge. Look especially close at the corner. If that's not it, remove the gutter, inspect and flood test again without the gutter installed.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Ok thanks. After reading some other threads here I asked my husband if we had a drip edge under the roof edge and he said yes. Just stopped raining so we will try testing again against with water the edge of dormer to be sure...


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Well apparently the water WAS getting over to the edge of the siding when he did this, because we did it just now and that is definitely the source of the problem. It is also obvious from the huge amounts of old and scraped up caulking there that this was a problem before we bought this house 7 years ago. After it dries hubby will head back up there with caulk and hopefully that will take care of our problem.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

amandat37 said:


> Well apparently the water WAS getting over to the edge of the siding when he did this, because we did it just now and that is definitely the source of the problem. It is also obvious from the huge amounts of old and scraped up caulking there that this was a problem before we bought this house 7 years ago. After it dries hubby will head back up there with caulk and hopefully that will take care of our problem.


Caulking is not a fix. 

Can you post a picture of that area?


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Caulk is NEVER the solution. It needs dismantled and flashed properly. Good ya found it, congrats.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Caulking isn't a fix? :/ uh oh

Should the roofer have redone this?

Here's a pic of it just now:


















Like I said it was obviously caulked a LOT before...... it started leaking about 5 years after we moved here. Did I mention our house is going to be FOR SALE this week? So we need to fix this ASAP. 
Thanks for your help.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

That's a new roof? I'm going to have to assume your roofer was lazy and just butted the new shingles to the wall without interweaving them with the step flashing and caulked the joint thinking it would work. That is completely wrong.

If you can lift the shingles slightly right next to the wall and see if there are pieces of metal under them at least every other shingle. Should be easy to see. If no step flashing then that is your problem. If it was flashed properly with your new roof then it would have eliminated your problem. If not then he just covered up your problem without fixing it.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

amandat37 said:


> We had Roof Company #1 come out, who quoted us on replacing the shingles on the flat roof (well it's not completely flat, but too flat for shingles) with torch-down. *He said it* *would solve the leak*. It didn't.
> 
> Roof company #2 said the leak must be originating higher, on the second story dormer. We had them replace that part of the roof, as *he said it* *would solve the leak.* It didn't.
> 
> We finally saved up enough money for an entire new roof, and Roof company #3 did the replacement for us. We thought the problem was solved.... until the next big rain. We were told our gutters were old and not hanging properly. We hired Gutter company to replace them.


This stuff makes me sick.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Sure does.

If this is the case, whoever roofed that part of your house is 100% responsible for your present leak. A conscientious roofer would have taken the time to flash the wall into the new roof.

I'd still fix the gutter/ds issue too.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Wow... ok. Thanks for your help. I will have hubby go up there and check where the shingles meet the flashing. We are just so frustrated because we have paid so many people now to help us fix this, and still it is US on the roof all weekend trying to figure out this crap, when we know nothing about this stuff. So frustrating.

So the roof was leaking before AND after the new roof, but it seems obvious now that this was the problem all along. Wonder why any of these "professionals" didn't notice this, as it was obviously all messy looking and full of old caulk (likely from previous owner)... Ugh.

Thanks again for your help here. Roofer is coming Monday so I will update.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Please do and best of luck


----------



## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

If your roofer don't pull off and mark the siding to apply steps of metal flashing on each course he is not fixing the problem


----------



## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

Metal steps on each course of shingle.Sorry


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

amandat37 said:


> Roofer is coming Monday so I will update.


Please do, before you write the check. :thumbsup:


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

From the pics,it doesn't look like your in the snow belt,so there is 
no chance of ice dams.
But,
What we always do here is roll any I&W that is used up the side of
an intersecting wall where that flashing needs to be addressed,
before we install the flashing.
Probably not a problem where you are,but just thought I'd add it
before your roofer gets there.

Did they strip the old shingles before the new was installed?
A lot of times,on a lay-over,an installer will mistakenly depend
on the old flashing to keep things dry.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Ok... just went up there with hubby and tried to look for this, but we're not sure what we should be seeing. The shingles are under the brown metal strip (is that the J-channel??), so we can't lift the edges to look under. Hubby said he can see another strip of metal if he looks between the shingles and that brown metal strip.

Here are 2 pics I took up there. The brown caulking is what we added earlier today, along the portion of the roof where there was all sorts of old cracked dried up caulk that was already there. It seems like the bottom 4 feet or so were heavily caulked before, the rest of the way up looks clean and clear. We did NOT run the hose all the way to the top, but we probably should to confirm that this area is the only problem. There are NO leaks on the other side of our dormer either, which looks identical. No signs of it being caulked over there before either.

This first picture is right where the caulked area begins. The brown is what my husband added, but you can see the thick clear caulk underneath. I believe that was from the previous owner, not our roofer, because it appeared very old (roof was just 6 mos ago) and also was not adhered to shingles. 










And this is along where the problem is. Again, my husband added the brown and you can see all the lumpy clear caulk on the inside part of the brown metal strip too, right against the siding. He added some on top of what was there, but tried to smooth it out the best he could. Whoever did it before left it looking really awful and lumpy... It was piled in there pretty good. :/ That's probably not good.










So I guess my question now is - what exactly SHOULD this seam look like? If our roofer didn't do something properly, what is it we should ask him to do? And will we be expected to pay for more work, or should this have been included in our roof replacement? (He did remove the old shingles, there is just one layer there). 
Also - the space between that brown strip and the siding... where is the water going that gets inbetween there?? 

thanks again for your help everyone, I really appreciate it.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes, it should have been included in your new roof, absolutely no question there. 
All that old caulk indicates its been a problem for a long time and the previous owners tried to do exactly what you are doing and you see the result.

Did the roofer apply caulk there prior to you getting up there or is that all from after he was done? Honestly you shouldn't have messed with anything on the roof without first getting the roofer out there. It gives him an out from guaranteeing his work because someone else (you) modified it. That is standard practice and, if you think about it, logical. 

Anyways, the proper detail is called "step flashing". Individual pieces of metal bent in an "L" shape generally 4" on the roof, 4" up the wall. They are interwoven in the courses of shingles to redirect any water back onto the roof and not behind your siding and down the wall. 

Here is a recent topic that covers the same issue you are having. Basically whatever is discussed there also pertains to your issue without having to rehash it all here again.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/leaking-roof-99860/

Okay, that one doesn't have all the info I thought it did, but it is the same issue as you have. 
Basically you need to have someone ensure that that wall was properly flashed with NEW step flashing when you had your new roof put on.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Ok thanks! I will go read that thread right now. So is the step flashing something we would see, or is it under the siding and shingles? All we can see is what's in the photos.... 

Was the roofer supposed to remove the siding to redo this flashing? 

And you make a good point..we probably should have left it until he came  Before you guys said anything we figured caulking was just what needed to be done.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

"Did the roofer apply caulk there prior to you getting up there or is that all from after he was done?"

Roofer didn't apply any caulk there. He came out a few times when we first noticed the leak was still going on, and he kept pointing the blame to the torch-down roof on the addition below (which of course was done by Roofer #1). He applied tar and caulk along the seam there, but that never made a difference. He never seemed to think it could have been anything above, or anything to do with the work he did. My husband was on the roof with him a few times, and they never even looked at this area. Only today after Gutter Guy was telling us that it definitely was NOT his gutters causing the problem, did he point us towards this.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

This article (4 pages) explains it pretty well.
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how...lling-step-and-corner-flashing-on-a-roof.aspx
Your weather barrier and siding then go over the top of the flashing.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

"This article (4 pages) explains it pretty well.
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...on-a-roof.aspx
Your weather barrier and siding then go over the top of the flashing."

Thanks!! That explains it really well, very helpful


----------



## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

IMO, the siding should have been removed on the dormer, in order to insure a proper flashing job. Re-using old flashing is not a good idea, although I see it done, over and over. Roofers aren't siders and so it goes. That being said, the roofer should recommend that you hire a siding contractor to remove and re-install, but that cuts into scheduling and profit margins.

That's why I'm not a roofer.:laughing:


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

All that caulk on the dormer needs to be removed. It causes lots of leaks.
HAve you checked the siding flashing around that dormer window yet. Run some water on the siding there, like these tests show. There is a good chance there is no flashing around the window.
http://www.albertsroofing.com/Window Flashing.htm


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

The hardest spot to flash here would be behind that corner post.
If the siding wasn't removed to flash this properly,there's no
way to tell what's behind it or the corner post.
It looks like the flat roof area was rolled up under the siding.
If the top of that rolled up section wasn't flashed near the 
corner post,water can be dumping behind it when it runs off the
upper roof near the corner.
There's a lot going on in that spot and removing the siding will
be the only way to determine how to make the repair.
The leak could actually be the fault of the flat roofers who
didn't ensure that their product was properly sealed at that point.


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Thanks Oldfart. I forgot to mention that if the window was done wrong, so was the corner post. I seldom meet a sider that has a clue about how siding is supposed to be done to prevent water intrusion. They done' even know how to clip the bottoms at the ends of the pieces. Sad.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

The windows (2) on the dormer) have also been caulked all around them. We had windows replaced also within the last year (leak started over a year ago). Should the window people have done something there? We sprayed around windows with hose and that leaks too!!!! I'm going to scream. :furious: 
The only thing we haven't had done is the siding - that is from before we moved in. Definitely not in our budget, we are trying to get rid of this house now! ugh


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

oldfrt said:


> There's a lot going on in that spot and removing the siding will
> be the only way to determine how to make the repair.
> The leak could actually be the fault of the flat roofers who
> didn't ensure that their product was properly sealed at that point.


Thank you!! Ok so when Roofer comes tomorrow should I tell him he needs to remove the siding?? What if he says no? The flat roof was done over a year ago (Roofer #1)- and that guy was a complete jerk - stopped returning our calls, etc... he also almost set our attic on fire with his stupid torch.


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

I'm positive the siding needs to be pulled. Flash the corner and the windows as outlined in my link. See if there is step flashing along that wall. If the wall is OK, remove the caulk so the flashing can work. A real question also, is whether or not, the flashing shoots the water past that corner, or into it.

The first pic is of a leaking corner.
The second pic shows the flashing coming through the corner to keep water out. I had to install a small termination flashing, then the step flashing. That's a downspout to the left cut into the roof line.


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

The pictures are real close-ups covering about a 5" area, exactly at the corner.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

thank you! I will show this to my husband. This seems like something a professional should do though, correct? Would the roofer be responsible or will we need to hire someone else (who does siding?) 
I really appreciate everyone's help! So glad I posted here.:thumbup:


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

It's really the roofer's job, but nearly anybody could follow my tutorial IF there are no serious obstracles such as a lack of step flashing, need of special tools that MAY be required, depending on what is underneath the siding.
Even I find myself needing unforseen things when I open one up.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Like I said earlier, it should have been taken care of properly when that section of roofing was replaced. Although not easy, it is possible to install new step there when installing the roof, especially since the old roof was torn off. 

There is no need to remove all the siding to fix it. But the roofing along the wall needs to be removed to do things properly.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Now that the hose test on the window produced the same leak, the siding needs to be stripped. 

You have both roofing and siding issues. Your hose test confirmed that. With the type of siding you have water will and does get behind the siding where meets the channel. If the prep work for the siding is done properly that water will run down the moister barrier, over the roof flashing and escape onto the roofing. 

If the roof flashing is in place and the barrier behind the siding is done correctly that alone should be water tight and not leak even before the first piece of siding is installed.

It’s been mentioned that “Roofers aren’t Siders”. Unfortunately that works both ways and is the truth to often. You need more than a just a roofer with a siding tutorial though :wink:. There are people good at both and that’s who you need. It’s not rocket science we’re both fighting the same rain drop.

I will say this as I mentioned before, post here with your newest roofers recommendations before you write a check.

Good luck.


----------



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

kwikfishron said:


> Now that the hose test on the window produced the same leak, the siding needs to be stripped.
> 
> You have both roofing and siding issues. Your hose test confirmed that. With the type of siding you have water will and does get behind the siding where meets the channel. If the prep work for the siding is done properly that water will run down the moister barrier, over the roof flashing and escape onto the roofing.
> 
> ...


You missed an important part. With the proper flashing in place, the water will never reach the moisture barrier. It should be kept from it at all costs. That's like depending on the roof felt to keep the water out.


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

amandat37 said:


> thank you! I will show this to my husband. This seems like something a professional should do though, correct? Would the roofer be responsible or will we need to hire someone else (who does siding?)
> I really appreciate everyone's help! So glad I posted here.:thumbup:


 I really feel for you here and its nice to see you trying to correct
these leaks properly before selling the house.

It's really hard to say exactly what is causing either leak without a
physical inspection and some history as to when the leaks developed
under the window.

If there was no leaking at the window area till after the window
installation,you need to have the details of that install looked over
closely.
It may have been leaking before the new window was installed but
could have run out over the top of the old flashing onto that lower
roof.All this means is that there was some kind of moisture barrier
under the siding doing its job.

From the looks of the age of that siding.I'd guess it was either just
a fan fold leveling board or plain old rolled foil.
Both of these could be well past their usefulness or are compromised.

Another possibility,if the leak under the window developed after
the lower roof was done,is that the top of that new roofing is now
over the top of any existing moisture barrier/leveling board ,and
allowing water that gets in around the window to get under the new
roofing.

If you knew when this leak started,it may narrow the problem down
some,but without seeing it personally,I'm just trying to give you a
few things to be aware of once you start talking to your roofer.

Editetail of the window trim and sill areas would help a lot finding
any potential leaks.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> You missed an important part. With the proper flashing in place, the water will never reach the moisture barrier. It should be kept from it at all costs. That's like depending on the roof felt to keep the water out.


No, I completely get the important part and couldn’t agree with you more that water should never reach the moister barrier but how do you keep water from getting behind the vinyl/aluminum siding where it meets the j-channel? Where does that water go? It hit’s the mb (hopefully) and runs down the wall and over the flashing.

And yes if the roofing fails or is damaged I’d hope your felt/flashing job would keep the water out. At least long enough to correct the issue.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh ron, don't get tinner and I started on our opinion of underlayments and myths about them.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Well then I will respectfully retract paragraph B but stand firm on A.

I’m no roofer (as you well know) and would never even think of debating the products of your trade.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh I wasn't trying to start anything Ron, no worries. We are just of the opinion that underlayments are overrated. They have their place but too many people nowadays actually depend on them to keep the weather out. But that's a subject for a different thread.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

*Update*

Ok, so the roofer came tonight and was very helpful - I do give him credit for coming out here at 8pm, we are out of town for him. Yes he did replace all the step flashing when he did the roof. We showed him where the problem was as we determined with hose and he concluded that the problem was the corner piece (sorry I don't know the proper terms) of the siding was supposed to have 1/2" clearance above the roof, but it was right on the roof. He said this was preventing the water running down the J-channel to escape. He cut off a piece at the bottom right there, and behind it was loads of gunk (tree seeds, etc.) and big hunks of caulk - not from us). After he did this, he took a big cup of water and poured it at the top of the J-channel up by the peak. Some was diverted by the caulk lower down (which my husband added to yesterday, we see now why this was a bad idea), and the rest of the water ran behind the caulk and flowed out of the hole he cut onto the roof below. Nothing dripped into the closet.

He is coming back this week to insert a piece of metal (flashing?) into this spot at the corner, I think he said it will go under the step-flashing to ensure that the water will run out of the J-channel freely and not be dammed up anymore.

Does this sound right? It made sense when he explained it, and he seemed pretty certain this was the problem we have had all along.


----------



## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes it does make sense. Sounds like you have a decent guy there. Hope that solves your dilemma.

So you see why we say NO CAULK!! :thumbsup: If anyone ever proposes a fix with it, be wary.


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

OldNBroken said:


> Yes it does make sense. Sounds like you have a decent guy there. Hope that solves your dilemma.
> 
> So you see why we say NO CAULK!! :thumbsup: If anyone ever proposes a fix with it, be wary.


:thumbsup: Yes I'm glad to know this now! This is our first home so we are still learning. After reading so much about this the past 24 hours (mostly on this site) I was glad to hear him say, when my husband told him he added caulking, "oh no... caulking should never be used on a roof". Even my own dad, who I consider quite handy, advised us to just "get up there with the caulk and go to town". 

He also pointed out that the other corner, on the other side of the dormer, does not have the problem because the corner piece had the proper clearance over the roof. So really this entire time, it was the fault of whoever installed the siding (many years before we moved here), and at some point the previous owners went caulk-crazy which just stopped it temporarily.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

amandat37 said:


> Does this sound right? It made sense when he explained it, and he seemed pretty certain this was the problem we have had all along.


Be sure to do the hose test before he leaves. :thumbsup:


----------



## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

*I am NOT trying to be an A**,,but NEXT time try to learn from this experience.Check credentials,insurance,bonds and licensing.*

*I feel for you because I feel like you were took.*

*I am in NO WAY trying to belittle you or humiliate you.*

*BUT,,,be a responsible homeowner and check insurance,bonds and licensing PRIOR to project commencement.*

*A few investigative actions on your part might have eliminated your post.*

*ALWAYS insist on verifiable references as well as pix of your contractors workmanship.*

*Be responsible as a consumer.Do your homework.Check your contractor and pacify your own needs.*

*Have a qualified contractor performing repairs on you MOST VALUED POSSESSION,,,your home.*

*Once again I am NOT trying to belittle you OR humiliate you OR put you on public display.*

*I am merely trying to get you and other homeowners to cover themselves,,,,*


----------



## amandat37 (Apr 9, 2011)

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We did get references and check BBB ratings on anyone we hired. All were licensed and insured, and recommended by a family member/friend as well. With the first guy, while he told us verbally that replacing that portion of the roof would "take care of the leak", our contract just outlined the work he would do - which he did, so he felt he owed us nothing else. We felt like he misled us, and at the very least should have properly diagnosed the leak to begin with.

But yes I agree, we should have made absolute sure the source of the leak was known before we did anything at all (even though the new roof was needed anyway). We assumed (as did the roofers, apparently) that a leak from the ceiling = roof problem. Nobody even mentioned the siding. Many lessons learned here, for sure :thumbsup:


----------



## petelyoung (Apr 22, 2011)

There is a new product coming on the market called X-Seal Acrylic 120. Its an impregnant, similar viscosity to water. No solvents. Is sprayed on with wash gun. Takes minutes to apply and able to take weather within 30 mins of application. You dont need to know where the leak is. It will find it by seeping into the substrate where it cures, filling the void, blocking rain access at the same time consolidating damaged structure. Good for 20years. No mess. No preperation - just make sure application is preceeded with 48 hrs of dry weather. Being anaerobic it cures in the substrate not on the surface. Surface film evaporates off Its cheap and works out at around £12.00 per sq meter.


----------



## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

*There is a new product coming on the market called X-Seal Acrylic 120. Its an impregnant, similar viscosity to water. No solvents. Is sprayed on with wash gun. Takes minutes to apply and able to take weather within 30 mins of application. You dont need to know where the leak is. It will find it by seeping into the substrate where it cures, filling the void, blocking rain access at the same time consolidating damaged structure. Good for 20years. No mess. No preperation - just make sure application is preceeded with 48 hrs of dry weather. Being anaerobic it cures in the substrate not on the surface. Surface film evaporates off Its cheap and works out at around £12.00 per sq meter.

*Boy, that sounds great. Where can I get me some of that, Petely?:whistling2:


----------



## petelyoung (Apr 22, 2011)

*New Sealant System*

It will be available for despatch by the end of this month. It is in the shop which you can see on www.x-seal.co.uk. We are new on this site and am not sure that we can give you our web address. If not please type in on your browser X-Seal.


----------

