# I need help from an honest to god roofer. Ed?



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

That is the job of a hack or inexperienced roofer along with inferior materials. Simple as that. Some of the things done are just preference, and some are just plain wrong.

How did you come about hiring this person/company?

May I also ask what you paid and where you are located?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I recall reading your post on www.RoofingTalk.com where you already received some advice, not at all being kind in any way to the contractor.

Firstly, in my opinion, he should be given an opportunity to make good on his promise to you that the items will be corrected as per your and his agreement to the punch-list items.

You see, just because someone makes mistakes, or their crew they hired to do the job does not make it look as nice as we all would expect, the true test is really more on if he is honest and ethical enough to attempt to do the right thing.

No, I do not think that the entire roof will need to be torn off.

Regarding some of those photos that you took from on top of the roof, would you notice the waviness of the rows from the front lawn?

Is so, they are necessitated to have straightened out.

Is there really missing flashings under the window sills, or did he just install the shingles over the top of the old existing sheet metal?

So, go at it like that first, before you crucify him and make your list and see what he is willing and capable of doing about those items first.

Then, gety back to us and report what his response is.

On the one exposed nail that I remember seeing this morning, there usually is one last piece of ridge cap shingle material that does have a face nail in it. Any exposed nails should be covered with a good quality caulking sealant of a similar color tone as the roof shingle color. Then that is fixed.

The cut ridge cap shingle where the ridge intersects with the main plane of the larger roof surface can be removed and replaced at a very minor inconvenience, but there usually does wind up being a slice in the shingle to conform to the pitch trasition change.

The wavy rows on the walk-on porch roof can be removed down to a course of shingles and then re-installed with chalk lines being snapped, to ensure that they are straight and true. A minor adjustment in the course exposure may need to be made, but rather than all at once, just around 1/8" to 1/4" per row, to make sure the shingles tie in to the steeper roof slope row correctly.

See if he will honor his commitment to providing you an adequate job.

Substantial completion and to conform to Industry Standards does not necessarily mean that the project will be perfect, but that it will work for the purpose intended.

Ed


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks Ed. I forgot I posted that question under my old blogger account. I appreciate you taking the time to detail your response a bit, and it will definitely help me with using the right terminology when talking to him again. the only thing I didn't mention is that the transition that's there right now was his *second* attempt at it. The first one was crazy. He ripped it out and redid it, and it was better. At the time it wasn't all bowed up, but it was better. I was willing to live with it because you couldn't see it from the ground. 

The flashings are there. The old ones. He did put step flashing near the dormer. I remember him cutting it and bending it with tinsnips. He also didn't replace the original flashing over the dormers. The original shingles had an aluminum channel (not sure what you call it) but the shingles didn't touch like they do now. There was a silver strip. that's what he shingled over. The exposed nail, I understand the reason for -- it was more the cracked shingle I was concerned about. And how do you replace drip edge without tearing off the shingles? 

The other thing I thought was a little suspect (but may be valid, and I've never heard it before) was he said he used ice and water shield as "felt" and other than the first 3 feet, he didn't peel the back off. He also didn't put anything behind the last two courses of shingles at the peak. They are nailed right to the plywood.


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

MJW said:


> That is the job of a hack or inexperienced roofer along with inferior materials. Simple as that. Some of the things done are just preference, and some are just plain wrong.
> 
> How did you come about hiring this person/company?
> 
> May I also ask what you paid and where you are located?


I am in upstate NY near Corinth, and I paid a little over $6,000. He was recommended by my brother in law. But he is a "contractor" and not a "roofer" but he assured me he had all sorts of roofing experience.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

mfitz said:


> I am in upstate NY near Corinth, and I paid a little over $6,000. He was recommended by my brother in law. But he is a "contractor" and not a "roofer" but he assured me he had all sorts of roofing experience.


 Sorry to pry with the questions I asked. Just trying to get a feel for the whole situation. 

I'm with Ed on this one. There are so many variables that you we can't say thing are done "wrong" or "incorrect".

To me, it's just a shotty looking job with tactics I don't use. Some consider it decent work....I don't....on some of the things. If I came to your house and looked at the roof, I would immediately think that a homeowner did it himself. No offense to anyone here, but we see these kinds of things all the time. Most people never notice quality, and I wish more of this stuff would be broadcasted like you are doing. It would really help out the people that are actually doing good work.


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

Just a note about the roofers that many contractors use.
Good to them is cheap & as long as it doesnt leak in the near future.
Quality is not usually a requirement.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

I am concerned based on the stuff he's had to "fix" for me already. After he put the roof on, it was leaking through the soffit. Turns out some of the drip edge had a reverse flow due to that ski-slope effect and the water was running in between where the two pieces of drip edge met. His solution was to hammer on the end until it was crushed enough to drip in the right direction (he did this while it was raining) and then "seal" it with caulk. I climbed up after he left, and it was _water-based_ caulk! It was running all over. I used roofing cement to put the shingles back down. 

The other fix was in the spring I noticed my bathroom roof vent lying in the snow. No idea how long I had a hole in my roof. It was pretty banged up and the flange was bent from the fall. So I called him, he came up and "fixed" that too -- It's pretty high up on a 12/12 pitch rear roof (3 stories since we have a walkout basement) so I had a hard time seeing it. Last week I bought a 34' ladder, and checked it out. It was the original bent up vent reinstalled, and there were broken shingles around it (from where he tried to jam it underneath again, and then gobs of some other kind of caulk behind it. On the plus side, at least he reconnected the flex pipe to the inside before putting it back on.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Sounds bad
Water based caulk....
Putting a beat up cap back on, did he install this cap originally?
And breaking shingles while doing it, of course they are cold & brittle if there was snow. Id have done a temp fix & then a permanent fix once it warmed up

Ski slope & banging on the drip edge
Even with that it shoudl not have happened
Ice & Water shield should have overlapped the drip edge
Preventing the water from backflowing


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes, he put new vents on the roof as part of the contract. And yes, they were pretty brittle, I'm sure. It's on the north side of the house. 

The way the water was getting into the drip edge was where they joined. It was getting in sideways, under the ice and water shield. I had to have him take the right and left side of the porch off and the back 3 feet (both after they were completed) because when I checked, it turned out that he didn't peel the back off the ice and water shield. Ridiculous.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, most roofers use the wrong type of sheet metal drip edge along the eaves.

He used what is known as an O.D.E., Overhanging Drip Edge, which is made for the rake/gable edges.

A proper Gutter Apron sheet metal should be used at the eaves.

But, even some manufacturers illustrations show the incorrect metal there.

By being bent at a 90* angle and being placed against a vertical fascia and also a sloped roof deck, the metal distorts and can create a sumped area along the entire eave.

This sump can also occur if the fascia board top portion is too high or alternatively, is not cut at the same angle as the roof decking slope.

Ed


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

That makes perfect sense, and now that you've explained it, I can see that it's exactly what's happening here. The drip edge feels "springy" because the edge is probably an inch away from anything resembling wood.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ed, do you have a pic of proper drip edge to use along a gutter edge? Or how far down the drip edge should hang?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Yes, both from manufacturers of the product and job photos, one in particular that shows exactly the same scenario that this OP is experiencing with the wrong style creating a sumped area in the shingles along the eave edge.

I will try to did them out later tonight.

In the mean time, look at some gutter supplier sites, like www.e-gutter.com maybe without the dash.....

Also, Appleton Metals out of Appleton Wisconsin and possible Rollex might have some pictures too.

Ed


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## rizzo (Nov 9, 2007)

Although certainly adequately covered by previous responses, thought I would reiterate with my experience on improper gutter apron installation. Our previous roof had pre-fab gutter apron installed incorrectly such that the last course of shingles did not retain proper pitch toward the gutter. Like you, we are in the snow belt and consequently experienced aggravated ice dam formation due to this low slope condition. As the shingles neared the end of their useful life, water leaks into the soffits also occured. Our new roof was installed with gutters removed and custom press-brake gutter apron applied over ice and water (2008)

I would therefore recommend removal of gutters, gutter apron (looks like gable drip edge was used) and the first several courses of shingles. This will allow ice and water shield and gutter apron to be applied properly. Furthermore, during re-installation of the gutter, proper slope towards the downspout can be maintained - it looks like you have standing water at present. I would much prefer to perform or hire this work now than wait until soffits, porch roof, rafter tails and fascias become damaged (yeah, I replaced those too).

best

-Frankie Rizzo


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks Frankie. I am hoping to make a list of all the things that should be changed from this thread and then talk it over with him. I would really like to see a picture of what you have installed now. Or if Ed can find his, that would be something I could push for the installation of.

The main transition between the porch and house is what I'm most concerned about at the moment....I am scared of what's under there.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

gutter apron


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

The long side goes on the roof, correct?


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Yes, and the back of the gutter slides up behind the shorter side so the water must go into the gutter.


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

Ah ok, so your gutter hangers are screwed into the fascia and underneath this piece, not through it. So if both need to be replaced they can be pulled from underneath and new stuff can be shoved under?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Is this a good pic of proper installation?
Except I assume the Ice & water shield goes over this?
This takes the place of drip edge?


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

It doesn't look like you'd be able to get at the gutter hanger with that install. Our porch is about 55 feet long, and it starts high in the center and gets lower toward each end so the water drains. If it started just at the center hanger, I wonder if there would still be enough of it to go inside the gutter when it reached the end. Although I did see some flashing type stuff that came in a roll -- said you could cut what you needed and tuck it behind the gutter apron and into the gutter to span that gap if there was one...


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I&W goes over the drip edge or gutter flashing.

Some put the I&W under the edging, but it should go into the gutter or at least over the edge and stuck to the fascia. I don't like that way because then the fascias cannot be replaced without disrupting the whole thing by cutting the I&W.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Oops - I meant over the drip edge, that's why I was thinking the pic was not exactly correct

Over at the gutter, under along the sides


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Guuter Apron Style Profile and Rake Edge O.D.E., Overhanging Drip Edge Profile Styles and installation photos.

Ed

The photos in this post are just of the G.A., Gutter Apron Style Drip Edge Metal.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The photos in this post will be of the O.D.E., Overhanging Drip Edge Style sheet metal.

Ed

The first 2 photos are just the profile of the metal. The 3rd photo is showing how I overlap the top portion, "Shingle Fashion" so that the higher section lays on top of the lower section, but also how I inter-lock the sheet metal so that when viewing the rake edge of the home from the ground, no seam is visible, because I place the side edge of the fascia exposed portion of the lower section of ODE over the top of the higher piece of ODE.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Now, for the final photos, which show how overlapping the fascia portion of the ODE seam in a reverse direction allows a clean aesthetic view from the ground all of the way up to the peak of the roof, without it looking as if there are any seams in the metal. The first photo is about a 30 foot rake edge and the 2nd photos is about 12-14 feet long.

The third photo admittedly could have had a cleaner and more plumb cut made with the tin snips to it, for the ODE that makes the transition over the peak of the roof to both sides.

Realize though, that from the ground, that slight faux pas is not noticeable and was not discovered by me until I was uploading the photos taken from a zoomed in perspective with my camera.

Ed


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

We usually use 5" straight 26 gauge with a 1/2" drip extended over the gutter by 1 1/2".
This holds up the ice & water & shingles but allows access to the gutter hangers.
In places like Whistler there is no gutters as the 10 ft of snow would rip them off. The metal extended to the end of the shingles keeps the snow falling from the upper roofs from destroying the overhanging shingles
Dale Chomechko 
DC Roofing Inc


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

Ed, in the last two pictures, why is there a gap between the fascia and the drip edge? If I had that on my house, I'd have a wasp infestation in 3 days.


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

I have ventilated houses with a gap between flashings & fascia on cedar/asphalt conversions, but usually the gap is not that wide & we do screen them.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

mfitz said:


> Ed, in the last two pictures, why is there a gap between the fascia and the drip edge? If I had that on my house, I'd have a wasp infestation in 3 days.


That is not a gap.

There is a 1" x 2" Frieze Board nailed to the top of the main fascia board.

Usually, we tear those off, because they have been rain and sun damaged, but in this case it was solid.

The Drip Edge metal is tight to the 1" x 2".

Ed


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

I have talked to three roofing companie so far (two of them pretty big) and nobody seems to use gutter apron. Is it that rare?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Companies are so used to getting chiseled down on price and getting beat out over a few hundred bucks, that many resort to eliminating recommended, but not required materials and labor from the jobs they bid.

They may even subconsciously start to believe that those items are not an added value to the Roofing System, but that is just one of the reasons why most roofs only last between 12-15 years, due to many such short-cuts that are taken.

Ed


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

I wish you lived in upstate NY!  I will keep trying until someone doesn't look at me like I'm nuts.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Companies are so used to getting chiseled down on price and getting beat out over a few hundred bucks, that many resort to eliminating recommended, but not required materials and labor from the jobs they bid.
> 
> They may even subconsciously start to believe that those items are not an added value to the Roofing System, but that is just one of the reasons why most roofs only last between 12-15 years, due to many such short-cuts that are taken.
> 
> Ed


There is another reason Ed, in my area we don't get the same severe type of snow and ice build up that some of the more northern cities and states get, thus drip edge properly installed to lap over the facial covering and ice guard over that is sufficient in my area.
I think it's a shame that most roofers I know here in my area do not know the difference between drip edge and eave flashing, but that's because the majority of them do not have experience working in other states where such a product is an extremely important part of the roofing system.

I have worked in 19 different states and all over Ohio when traveling for Simon Roofing, thus I experienced many of the differences there are from one state to another.
When I installed roofs in Florida the locals looked at me like I was nuts when I started to lay starter strips up the rakes, they covered their drip edge in roof cement and than cut the shingles even with the outside edge of the drip.
When they told me I was going to use L flashing on the walls and chimneys instead of step flashing's I looked at them like they were nuts.

Different environments, require different steps/procedures to achieve a quality roof system.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Companies are so used to getting chiseled down on price and getting beat out over a few hundred bucks, that many resort to eliminating recommended, but not required materials and labor from the jobs they bid.
> 
> They may even subconsciously start to believe that those items are not an added value to the Roofing System, but that is just one of the reasons why most roofs only last between 12-15 years, due to many such short-cuts that are taken.
> 
> Ed



So true Ed, so true...............

We have lost jobs for $50, and then come to find out that the other roofer wasn't installing any new flashings, valleys, or vents. This happens so often, I can't believe that the public doesn't catch on.


Most like to blame the contractor, but sometimes it's the homeowner penny pinching that gets them in trouble.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

mfitz said:


> I wish you lived in upstate NY!  I will keep trying until someone doesn't look at me like I'm nuts.


That's kinda odd, both times I worked in NY which was near 'Big Bear' I think it was called, they had some pretty heavy snows compared to what we normally get here in my area, thus eave flashing was used instead of drip edge, we still used drip edge on the rakes, just not the eaves.

Try asking about "eave flashing" rather than gutter apron, they may be confused because they know it by a different term like me.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

"eave flashing" up here is what some cities call I&W.

I have used drip edge and gutter flashing on eaves. On my own house I have Style D drip edge and the gutter fits on there just fine. I prefer to use steel over aluminum as much as possible. I&W on top of the drip or apron, of course. That is code here.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

MJW said:


> "eave flashing" up here is what some cities call I&W.
> 
> I have used drip edge and gutter flashing on eaves. On my own house I have Style D drip edge and the gutter fits on there just fine. I prefer to use steel over aluminum as much as possible. I&W on top of the drip or apron, of course. That is code here.


That's exactly my point, to me ice & water shield is ice guard,
gutter apron is eave flashing, same materials called by different names.


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## mfitz (Mar 3, 2008)

You guys should get together and form an association of some sort and hammer this stuff out.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I agree with ya Sly. I got a nice chuckle reading the checklist I got from a City for inspections when they referred to I&W as "eave flashing".


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

To MJW
Teminology is a big thing with customers. Words we take for granted, they don't understand. A little more time with customers goes a long way to not losing a job over $50. With some people it is a price point only.
We do the home shows here in Vancouver & bring in our most knowledgable staff to educate people about the products they are puchasing.
Terminology changes, installation changes, prices change & the customer is bewildered by all of it. Detail your quotes so they have to ask the other roofers the unknowns in their quotes that are in yours. Educating your cutomers goes a long way to making the sale at a price you can live with. 
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I knew I would get a lecture on "how to be a salesman" from a salesman. You are right, but sometimes, it doesn't matter what you entail in your bid. They only look at the dollar amount at the bottom.........that is, until they get screwed over a time or two. There are quite a few young people with houses here in the states. They have no idea, and really don't care.

Like Ed said, most contractors are used to getting beat down on their prices so bad because of cheap labor, that they have to make cuts here and there, and the customer gets what they pay for.


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