# Sump pump running often for first time ever



## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

I posted this message as a response to jgra's sump pump questions but realized I should ask it as my own question.

I am having a similar issue to jgra. I live just north of Philadelphia and although our sump pump has maybe gone off some (hardly ever) in the 10 years we've lived in our house, it is now going off quite often for the first time ever (once every 15 minutes)! We had three feet of snow that melted slowly (saturating the ground) and then a 3 inches of rain ten days ago, and then an inch of rain earlier this week.

During the storm a week and a half ago, our power went out for 3-5 hours and the pump didn't overflow. But the pump is still going off ten days later! Two days ago I tested the pump by unplugging it for 6.5 hours. It went from about 8 inches to 17.5 inches (our pit is 21 inches deep). But in the last four hours it only went up 1 inch and in the last two hours only a quarter of an inch.

Also, friends whose pumps go off often during storms have told me that theirs have stopped since that heavy rain ten days ago. 

Does that suggest that the water table has just risen significantly? 

I am very worried as I didn't think we ever had to worry about water in our basement as we thought our pump never went off (now we realize it probably did sometimes).

Thanks!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Water table can rise for several days after a rain storm
Takes a while for all the water to soak thru the ground
I have my sump set to go on when it is about 2" below the top of the pit
That way it doesn't run all the time trying to pump ground water that will not recede for several days


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## Gladerunner (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm a plumber in philadelphia and I can say that the water tables are very high right now. I would keep an eye on it for a few more days to confirm that you don't have another problem such as a leaking underground water line. But for now i wouldn't worry too much


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

*Thanks for the info!*

Scuba Dave and just a guy--

Thank you so much! I've been very worried (kind of freaking out a bit) as our pump hardly, if ever, went off before this.

just a guy--how would I check that for an underground leaking water line? And also, the pump has been going off less as time has gone on but it is still going ten days after that heavy rain. How long should I give it before really worrying about it? Does the fact that the water never reached the top of the pit when I turned the pump off for 6.5 hours mean that it is probably a water table issue rather than a new underground spring in my yard?

My plumber doesn't seem concerned. The old pump--which had been there at least 23 years--had its switch break a day after those heavy rains. It was still pumping but took forever to turn off. When the new pump--a Zoeller--was pumping so often I called my plumber and he said water conditions around a house can change and that as long as the pump is pumping, things are good. But as this is new for us, I am worried.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

*Question for just a guy*

just a guy--I forgot to ask one other question. The sump pump pit is right next to the water meter, which I assume means that that is where the water comes into the house. Could this point to a broken water line? Any way to test for that?

Many, many thanks!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You would hear water running in the pipe of there was a bad leak
It can take a week or longer of DRY weather before water table will go back down
More rain = water table does not recede


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

If you turn the pump off for a few hours and the water level rises in the pit but no part of the basement gets wet, then the natural water table is high given recent past weather conditions but not high enough to flood your basement.

Meanwhile the pump together with a perimeter drain system will attempt to establish an artificial water table under your house that is lower still. An overabundance of water in the ground may make the establishment of this lower artificial water table take a very long time.

Usually the pump should come on when the level in the pit starts to cover part of the diameter of any perimeter drain pipe emptying into the pit. But you can get away with setting the turn on level higher if that reduces pump run time provided that water does not seep up through the floor at the far corner of the basement.

The perimeter drain system stops accomplishing anything when it fills up with water because the level in the pit has gotten very high and the pump hasn't turned on yet.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

*No perimeter drain, I think*

Allan J-- Thank you!

However, my house is old--built 1942--and I don't think it has a perimeter drain. We do not have a French drain in the basement. As I am far from an expert on this, I assume the water is just coming in from the ground into the sump pump, but I could be wrong.

I wasn't able to let leave the sump pump off for longer than than 6.5 hours (had to go pick up my daughter) but my thought had been that as it seemed that the pit wasn't going to overflow, the natural water table at my house had just risen significantly.

I am not sure if I can raise up my pump--the way my plumber installed it with the PVC pipe it doesn't seem to be "adjustable" as the PVC pipe is a certain length and is then attached to the pump.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

With the sump pump by itself (no perimeter drain system aka French drain), the pump lowers the water table only for a few feet all around it unless the soil (sand?) under your house is unusually porous.

With the perimeter drain system able to empty into a sump pump pit or down the hill somewhere away from the house (i.e. is full of air most of the time) the water table will be artificially lowered a few feet on each side all along the drain system. The artificial water table can be as low as the water surface level inside the drain pipe and it gradually slopes up to the natural water table (if that is higher) as you get a few feet away.

With rare exceptions (such as having an underground spring) the water table in the space encircled by a perimeter drain system (such as directly under your house) will approximate the artificial water table established by the drain system.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

AllanJ--

Many thanks again.

So if I understand you correctly, if I had a perimeter drain, my pump might be going off even more as the drain itself will want to establish an even artificially lower the water table right near the house.

My soil (luckily) is not sand nor is it clay.

Without the perimeter drain, what does that suggest? If the pump only lowers the water table a few feet (vs. with perimeter drain it would try to lower the water table even more), does that mean my pump should not be going off so often? Or could it just be that the water table is so much higher than usual because of all the snow and heavy rain? The previous owner, in the disclosure when we bought the house, said the sump pump was bone dry for years and so they unplugged it. Then one winter in the 1990s the basement got wet because the pump wasn't plugged in. (I assume it was January 1996 when we got over 30 inches of snow and then a very very heavy rain two weeks later ).

I do have a French drain outside on the side of my house where the pump is, but it is several feet from the house and not that deep in the ground.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Oops, I meant to say that "few feet" refers to horizontal distance from the pump, not depth in the ground.

You only need a perimeter drain system when the level of water in the pit stays low enough that the pump remains stopped but water is still seeping up into the basement at the far side.

The way you describe things, I conclude that you just have a tremendous amount of water soaked into the ground and the natural water table has stayed unusually high for a long time.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

*Many thanks ...*

Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I really, really appreciate it.

The sump pump has significantly slowed down--to about once every 30 minutes! Unfortunately it looks like we are going to get 1-2" of rain on Sunday-Monday.

I also decided to look up Accuweather's statistics on rainfall. In the last 12 months (4/09-3/10 so far) Philadelphia has had 18 inches of above average rainfall (normal is about 41-42 inches a year). But when I chose my specific town near Philadelphia, we again have the same normal rainfall but we have had 41 inches of above average rainfall. So that means in the last 12 months my town has had DOUBLE the rainfall we normally get. 

That may explain why my sump pump is going off--that much extra rain means a very high water table.

We are starting to feel that someone moved our house to Seattle without telling us ...


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

I bet your pump is going off again! I'm in NJ, and our snow/rainfall amounts are pretty close to yours. My pit is dry most of the year, but it's been cycling at some level since that snow melted. It's gotten as frequent as every 7 minutes, and as far as every few hours, but it's not completely stopped for weeks. Right now the rain finally stopped, and it's kicking in every 20 min.

I wouldn't stress, it sounds like your pump is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Between the rain and the snowmelt, we've just gotten a lot of precipitation. Sometimes the water table is high, or perched, and it just takes a while to drop back down. Especially if there is shale or clay in the ground (what I have)

Also, your old pump may have been set to come on at a higher water level. If the new zoeller pump is a model with a built in float the only way you can adjust that is to raise the pump up (you can set it on a few pavers) but you would probably have to adjust the plumbing.

If the new pump has a piggy back switch, then it's probably adjustable. It may be attached to the pipe. If so, you can loosen it and slide it up, so it kicks on at a higher water level.

If your pit is usually dry, I would leave it alone and let it work. They say "never say never" but how many of these storms can we get! We have to be due for a dry stretch right?

By the way, my house was built in late 40's, and had no pit when I moved in. Old timer next store (been there 40 years plus) said my house was the only one on the street never got water. Well, my luck, a bad thunderstorm dumped 4" inches in a few hours last summer, and I got a little leak. Enough to make me add a pit/pump last fall. Boy am I glad I did!

A pit without draintile can still be effective, especially if you have a good layer of gravel under the floor.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

*Thanks pkovo*

pkovo--

Thanks so much for your info. I do think the old pump may have been may have been very quiet. Every once in a blue moon I would hear a whoosh from where the pump is and think it was a toilet flushing. Looking back, that doesn't make sense as there are no toilets that drain to that area.

I also do think the old pump was set higher, although my plumber put the new pump on bricks so it is up about 2" higher than it normally would be.

The problem is I'm just not sure about the pump having water in it before as a radon system was put in when we moved in and they put this heavy duty putty all around the pit's cover so we never opened it up. 

Hearing your story makes me realize maybe this is VERY unusual weather and that the water table at my house may be much much higher than usual because of all the rain. It also makes me feel much better. I was down to every 30 minutes on Saturday but with this rain I am now at every 4 minutes.

Do you think that the fact that all that snow melted slowly made the water table higher than usual? I'm thinking that that is the most significant difference about this year since we've been in the house--the amount of snow and then a nice slow melt. 

Again, many thanks.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm used to our pump going off in heavy rains
I check it once a day
When it dries up our sump pit is empty


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Scuba Dave--

So when the rain stops and the ground gets dry, your pit is totally dry?

Also, so even though your pit is say 18" deep, you have your pump only go on when the water level is say at 16"? My Zoeller doesn't seem adjustable. And I have wondered why pumps are set so low in the pit, as it seems like that isn't necessary. Is there a reason that the pumps are set so far down in the pits? My Zoeller model is set to go on at 7" from the bottom (mine is on bricks so it goes on at about 9" from the bottom so about 12" from the top of the pit).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes...my sump pit goes dry once once the rain stops & the stream level drops
One night I check & there is water...next day its empty

Adjustment depends upon your pump
On mine the rubber stoppers are adjustable
So I can adjust when it turns off & on
My pump sits on the bottom & goes on about ~2" from the top
This gives it a longer run time (~12 min) which allows more water to be pumped out at once
Then it will shut off for a while - depending upon amount of rainfall

In a normal year due to grading, extended downspouts, 16' drain system out front & 2 river rock drainage systems the sump pump no longer needs to run


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Scuba Dave--

"In a normal year due to grading, extended downspouts, 16' drain system out front & 2 river rock drainage systems the sump pump no longer needs to run"

So there are years your pump doesn't run, but then there are years that it needs to run? I'm just trying to figure out whether this is an aberration for our house and it's hard as we never looked in the pit and the old pump may have been very quiet. We've been here ten years and I know it has never run this often (it's still every 4 minutes since the storm), if much at all.


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

No doubt the snow melt contributed. That alone got my pump running, never mind the approximate 10 inches of rain this month! I read today that the past 12 months has been the wettest 12 months ever for NJ, at least since they started keeping records (late 1800's). 

I haven't timed my pump today, but judging from the giant puddle I have under my forsythia's where it's piped to, I know it's running frequently. 

I have a radon system as well, so I also had to build a sealed lid for my pit. I like having the sealed lid, makes it quieter and keeps dampness out of the basement. I didn't like not being able to see or access the pump though, so I added a clear deck hatch made for a kayak to my lid. It's airtight, and I can see the water/pump since it's clear. If I need to, I can reach my arm down there and access the pump. It's just like this one:









I also didn't like the fact that since the pit is sealed, water can't drain into it from above if needed (burst pipe, failed washing machine etc..). After some research, I found one that is airtight for radon suction purposes, but when the drain is filled from above with water, it opens. It's a little pricey, but a good piece of mind knowing my basement won't turn into a swimming pool if a pipe bursts while I'm at work. Can google it (Dranjer fs2). Many radon supply stores sell them online.









Both of these things are fairly easy to add to a sump lid. 

Assuming we get a decent run without precipitation for a while, I would just pay attention to your pump and see if it cycles less frequently as time goes by. It probably will. 

You might want to also consider backup pumps, and/or a backup power source just in case you ever lose power, or have a pump failure in a situation where the pump "needs" to keep running. Probably not likely, but you never know. I lost power in the storm we had a few weeks ago, but luckily I had a backup power source to keep my pump running. If I didn't, I'm not sure if I would have gotten by without getting water. How much backup/redundancy you need or want is certainly subjective. I have an uncle that has some type of sump pump failure insurance added to his homeowners policy.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes due to better drainage, better grading of the yard, sunroom & addition water is being directed further away from the house
So if we don't have heavy rain storms, or days of lighter rain, then the pump doesn't go on


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks pkovo--

I do want to do a backup pump. My pit, though, is about 16 inches by 10.5 inches and then about 21-22 inches deep so my plumber said we'd have to dig a bigger pit to do a backup. I REALLY do not want to dig a bigger pit, not even just because of the cost but because the current pit is set up for the radon cover and I just don't want to be digging up our basement. I've called Zoeller to find out if I could do the backup they have that goes with my regular pump but still waiting for a call back.

In the first storm two weeks ago we did lose power for 3-5 hours with no problem but I still want a backup. 

Thanks for the very detailed info on your new pit cover for radon purposes. We actually already have a drain in our basement so I don't need the sump pump pit to act as a drain in case of burst pipe.


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

I don't have a backup pump, and don't blame you for not wanting to make the pit bigger. Most of the battery backup systems I've seen look like glorified 12 volt bilge pumps to me, with a high price tag. I'm on the fence about getting one because I have backup power if I am home, and under normal circumstances, I don't have much of a water issue so it's tough to say it would be worth it.

If your plumber installed the most popular Zoeller pump (the mighty mate), the float is non-adjustable. It kicks on when water is around 7" high from bottom of pump, and shuts off when water is 3" high. Since it's only draining down 4" of water at a time, and your pit is on the small side, this might be part of the reason your pump runs more frequently. You can see the float and the relatively short throw it has in the picture here. Regardless, it's considered a very good pump.










I actually like the pedastal pumps like the one Scuba Dave posted, but without modification, it won't work for us with sealed sump pits.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Pkovo--

That is our pump! The pump does make the water level go down to 4" but, despite a check valve, water seems to flow back in and so the net effect is that the water level only goes down 3". I find that annoying, as I know the pump could be running less frequently if really removed 4", but I don't understand why that is happening when we have a check valve (and it is a Zoeller PVC check valve).

And thanks for the confirmation on the Zoeller 53 being a good one--I told my plumber I wanted the Rolls Royce of sump pumps (and he told me this is what he has).


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

I basically bought the same pump after much research, but I bought the non automatic version. I bought a seperate adjustable switch that attaches to the pipe. Lets me adjust the point it turns on, and lets it pump more volume, I think around 6 inches or so. Here's a pic










The water that falls back down may be the water in the pipe _below_ the check valve. If your plumber installed following Zoellers recomendations, he drilled a small hole in the pipe right above where it attaches to the pump. The hole is 1/8" if I remember correctly, and it prevents the possibility of the pump becoming air locked. However I think that lets the water below the check valve drain back into the pit. 

I would just let your pump run it's shorter cycle and in a few weeks it probably won't be running any more anyway. 

This site relates to Ohio, or somewhere, but the the pictures are applicable to anywhere. Might be helpful to se ein a pic the different situations. I think when most people refer to a temporary high water table, it's really more of a perched water table.http://www.lakecountyohio.gov/swcd/Landowners/HighWaterTables/tabid/657/Default.aspx

Your not alone in stressng about your pump running. I still have a hard time getting used to having my pump run, even understanding why it''s running. I'll be happy when the water table receeds and my pit gets dry and dusty again for the summer. :thumbup:


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

pkovo--

Thanks again for all the info.

I'm testing my pump right now. It's been 40 minutes since I turned it off and it is still 4" from the top of the pit. So clearly if the switch went on at a higher point, it would pump less often. My real question is whether the water would actually go above the top of the pit.

What size is your pit and what level from the top of the pit do you have your pump going off at?

I want a backup because I worry about power loss and/or if this pump for some reason fails even if I have power.


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

You're welcome. 

My pit is 18" diameter and 24" deep. The pit is surrounded on all sides and below by several inches of drainage stone, so the effective volume is actually larger. It's perforated with 1/4 holes throughout. My pump is set to come on when the water level is about 7" below top of pit. I might be able to get away with letting the water get higher before the pump kicks on, but my fear is if I let it get too high, I may have water seep in to some part of my basement before the pump kicks on. 

I am debating making my own backup system with a high quality bilge pump, a deep cycle maintenance free battery, and a charger/maintainer. Would take up very little space in the pit, and I already have a suitable charger I could use. 

Problem is, I'm not sure it's worth it. I mean, I have a generator I can always use if I am home during a power failure, and I have an extra utility pump I can plug in and use if the pump was to fail when I am home. I also have an alarm that will sound if my pump fails and the water gets too high. So, the ony situation I would need the backup for is when I'm not home, but my pit is dry most of the year. 

I am working from home today (basement office) so I have been paying attention to my cycle times. It's running every 33-36 minutes.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

pkovo--

If you have it go off at 7" from the top, how long does it actually run for when it turns on? Although mine is going every 4 minutes, it runs for only 5 seconds. Given my test this morning, I know it would run a whole lot less if the switch went on higher up than the 14-15" from the top it is at now.

The Zoeller backup (model 507) that goes with our pump (Zoeller 53) retails for $250 at irawoods.com but I'm not sure if that includes the really big battery. But given your situation (that you have a generator and a utility pump as well as the alarm), I totally see why you might not want to bother to get a backup. My concern is we take a two week vacation in the summer so I don't want to have to worry about a big thunderstorm while we are away.

It is so helpful to connect with other homeowners experiencing similar issues!


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

You know, I never actually timed it. It's longer than 5 seconds, but not very long. Probably somewhere in the ballpark of 10-15 seconds.

I was playing in the yard with my daughter and noticed my next door neighbors was running every 5 minutes. He's told me his pit is only the size of a 5 gallon bucket though, so I guess that's why.

If you are talking about the basement sentry model, It's basically a bilge pump. Not really a bad thing, but it's a lot of money for what it is. That price includes the pump hardware and charger, but not a battery. You need a decnt deep cycle marine battery. In my opinion the battery really should be replaced every 4 years to be safe, whether the pump runs or not.

I think it's basically this bilge pump










I agree, it's nice to know we'r enot alone. I spoke to a guy at work that Lives in Wayne NJ. His basements dry, but he can hardly move around his town with the way the Pasaic river has risen.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My sump pit is about 17x17 & 14" deep, about 17.5g if my calc is correct

But my sump will run for 12 minutes & pump out ~600g of water due to the drain system
Usually it will not come back on for over an hour unless we have heavy rain


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks again, pkovo.

Scuba Dave--do you mean that the pump literally goes for 12 minutes without stopping?

I found information from the US Geologic Service and think I finally understand why my pump is going off now, when it hasn't in heavy rains, and didn't go on until after the heavy storm ended two weeks ago. The USGS has wells in counties and measures the depth of the groundwater from the surface on a daily basis. I looked for my county and found that in the ten years I have lived in my house, up until last month there have been about five days that the groundwater was less than seven feet below the surface. Then in March, fifteen of the days had groundwater less than seven feet below the surface!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes - my pump runs for 12 minutes at a time if the pit fills up
I sometimes click it on myself before it reaches the set point


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks, Scuba Dave!


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

Pkovo and Scuba Dave (or anyone else!)--

I did the math and figured out given the dimensions of my pit and that it only takes the water level down 3 inches each time the pump goes on, it is only expelling 2.2 gallons at a time. So that means it is only expelling 33 gallons an hour even going on every 4 minutes.

Is 33 gallons an hour a lot? Or is the reason my pump goes on so often is because of how little it is expelling at a time?


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

I'm sure that contributes to the frequency. If you had a high volume drain tile system like Scuba does, it would take much longer to fill up, then much longer to pump out. Plus a drain tile system collects the water more efficiently.

Is your pump still running? I heard mine run twice over the weekend, but I think it now finally stopped. The pit still has water, but at a level and inch or two before the point where it will turn on the pump. 

I timed mine, it pumps for about 15 seconds each time it cycles.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Three inches and 2.2 gallons at a shot is not ideal for a sump pump but you may have to live with that for the time being.

If the pit itself is wider so each inch of lowering means more gallons, lowering the water level only 3 inches is not that bad.

You might want to consider digging the pit deeper so the bottom is at least a foot below where the perimeter drain pipes enter.


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## benezet (Mar 25, 2010)

My pump is still running but finally slowing down--to once every 38 minutes. And when it runs, it only runs for 5-6 seconds.

I decided to measure the amount released by putting a bucket where the pipe ends outside and it actually was more like 4 gallons. I know I measured the pit correctly so I assume the holes in the pit below the water level also drain out water.

I don't have a perimeter drain that dumps into the pit (my house is old--early 1940s). Instead, my pit is clay with small holes every couple of inches on each side that drain water into the pit.

I think if my pump were set to go off at a higher level, it probably would be going off hardly at all or very seldom as when I turned off the pump a couple of weeks ago after six hours the water level still hadn't risen above the top and was barely taking in more water (only 1/4" in the last two hours).

I now believe it is a high water table issue as after the pump goes more often AFTER the rain stops and it has never gone off before. The news announced that the last 12 months have been the wettest ever for Philadelphia. 

I really don't want to dig up my basement floor to make a bigger pit, although I know the size isn't ideal. I'm going to monitor the pump and see what happens as the water table goes back down. If the pump stops going off and still doesn't go off during heavy rain storms (as in the past), I think we'll stick with our small pit. But I still think we might get a backup pump, especially as our flow rate is slow enough that a backup pump would pump out enough water to keep water from coming into our basement.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Try setting the pump turn on level higher, leaving the turn off level at the same low level it was at. But monitor the pump and also monitor the basement for wetness all around especially in the far corner.

It will take a couple of days for the water table under the house to settle down after each adjustment you make to the pump. In addition, the weather will exert other changes on the water table.


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## pkovo (Mar 9, 2008)

I would say your pit/pump worked fine. Maybe it worked a little more than it needed to since the turn on point is deep, and it's a short cycle, but it kept your basement dry which is the most important thing. The water level in my pit is slowly falling. Barring anymore significant rain, I suspect it will be dry in a week or so. Hopefully it won't run like it did in March for a long time!


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