# Lead Drain Pipe Project



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> *The lead surface isn’t perfect where the fitting goes on and I suspect that is causing it to leak.*


Ayuh,... I'd take it apart, 'n sand it Smooth, so it'll seal....


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, we did sand it somewhat. There may be some gouges/small depressions in it preventing it from sealing. If there is a decent type glue to use, I can try that. Maybe th eglue used to seal plastic to cast iron or maybe even silicone?


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## broox (Nov 30, 2010)

I would love to see a picture of what you are calling a "flange". as well as a picture of the pipe coming out of the wall.


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## the_man (Aug 14, 2010)

i've never had a bit of luck attaching anything to lead pipes. there are still guys out there that worked with lead (old guys :laughing that might be able to do something with it, but most people now cut it out and replace it with abs/pvc. i would recommend getting into the wall and cut out the cast iron/lead transition joint and repipe it with plastic. thats about the only diy repair you'll be able to do. if you do have a pic it might help us give you some recommendations of something a bit easier :thumbsup:


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Here are a couple pictures of the flange. I won't be able to get pictures of the pipe coming out of the wall until Wednesday.




Basically the pipe coming out of the wall has enough straight section to install the Fernco all the way to middle of the coupler. It just may be too irregular for it to seal unless I'm not tightening it enough. I'm just hesitant to crank away on it being that it's on a lead pipe. It sealed to the plastic pipe rather easily like it should.

Thanks.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Basically the pipe coming out of the wall has enough straight section to install the Fernco all the way to middle of the coupler. It just may be too irregular for it to seal unless I'm not tightening it enough. I'm just hesitant to crank away on it being that it's on a lead pipe.


Ayuh,... Slather on a tiny bit of Sillyseal, 'n tighten it enough to seal it...

Even being leadpipe, it's stronger than you think, as a hoseclamp is a full circumference clamp...


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Cut it back to the stack and replace it with PVC


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

the_man said:


> i've never had a bit of luck attaching anything to lead pipes. there are still guys out there that worked with lead (old guys :laughing that might be able to do something with it, but most people now cut it out and replace it with abs/pvc. i would recommend getting into the wall and cut out the cast iron/lead transition joint and repipe it with plastic. thats about the only diy repair you'll be able to do. if you do have a pic it might help us give you some recommendations of something a bit easier :thumbsup:


Well, that's the last resort I guess. What type of fitting is the lead to cast iron transition and how difficult is it to remove it?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Well, that's the last resort I guess.* What type of fitting is the lead to cast iron transition and how difficult is it to remove it?*


Ayuh,... It's probably a Leaded joint...
The lead pipe was set into the fitting, 'n liquid lead was poured around it to seal it...

It can be cut, beat, whatever to get it out/ apart....


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, I think I found that I would need a Fernco "donut" to transistion from the CI hub to the plastic if we have to rip it all out.


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## kibblesret (Jan 22, 2011)

As Bondo said the fitting at the cast iron will be a poured lead one. If you need to replace the whole line then I would really suggest hiring a plumber. 

Most plumbers can/could wipe a new flange onto your pipe but the cost of the time to do this make it less than practical.

If you do the work of opening the wall and making it easy for the pro to replace the lead that would be the best way to insure a good job. The last thing you need would be a slow leak inside the wall.

They do make a flex fitting sort of ribbed O-ring that you can use to couple your new plastic into the cast iron but in fact they are somewhat hard to "get right".

Add that to the techincal aspects of properly removing the lead fitting without burning yourself or your house down when you resort to a torch rather than using the cold method which is labour intensive and it all adds up to getting a plumber. 

Yes you could use epoxy to bond to the lead pipe and yes it will eventually leak as will any other sort of sealer. Sigh.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok. Thanks. So if the plumber doesn't use that ribbed donut piece that fits into the cast iron hub, what do they use to transition to plastic? Or is that what they use?


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## broox (Nov 30, 2010)

I know this is late, but are you sure the pipe coming out of the wall is lead? I hope experienced plumbers will disagree with me on this if I am incorrect, but I can not recall seeing a lead arm in a wall like you describe. All I have seen is cast iron or galv steel. Of course I am in God's country(Tennessee), and those yankees might have done things differently 50 years ago, if you live up north.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

I was thinking. I'll say the easiest way really seems to be just wiping on a new flange to the existing lead with a 1 1/4 brass pipe. Bust out a section of plaster wall (not easy in itself), remove a brass ferrule that has been lead-poured in (cut it, chisel it out or torch it out and pray the cast iron doesn't break), clean out the hub, carefully install the ribbed donut, run all new plastic pipe, repair the wall, then paint. Man.. All that vs. wiping on a new flange/pipe. Which seems more labor intensive?


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

broox said:


> I know this is late, but are you sure the pipe coming out of the wall is lead? I hope experienced plumbers will disagree with me on this if I am incorrect, but I can not recall seeing a lead arm in a wall like you describe. All I have seen is cast iron or galv steel. Of course I am in God's country(Tennessee), and those yankees might have done things differently 50 years ago, if you live up north.


Absolutely. It is lead for sure. The whole house has lead drain pipes that lead to the cast iron. All the showers and sinks. We cut it by hand with a hack saw blade and it was relatively easy to cut. It's definitely lead.


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## broox (Nov 30, 2010)

Crazy idea then: Could you get a 1 1/2" or a 1 1/4" brass trap arm to fit inside the lead stub out, then just put a hose clamp on the lead and tighten it up???


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

BTW, the plumber estimated between 2-3 hours to do the work if the wall was already opened up (which we would do). I know good and well it wouldn't take 2-3 hours to wipe on a new flange/pipe. The hang-up seems to be the flange itself. There's another sink adjacent to this one and the plumber said he could remove the old pipe out of that one and wipe in a new one. So I am assuming the flange is some kind of secret part that isn't available anymore or something. I say this because both plumbers said "that was a mistake" when I told them I cut the old flange off. So I guess I'm wondering what the difference is if the flange would still be attached and he melted out the old lead, pulled the old pipe out, and wiped in a new pipe vs. starting from scratch by putting a new flange on and wiping in a new pipe.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

broox said:


> Crazy idea then: Could you get a 1 1/2" or a 1 1/4" brass trap arm to fit inside the lead stub out, then just put a hose clamp on the lead and tighten it up???


Well, I was looking to see the inside diameter of the lead to see if I couuld insert a brass pipe to prevent it from crushing. It looks to be 1 1/16"-1 1/8". So the 1 1/4" pipe won't fit inside. I'm sure the lead could be flared out somehow but I'm not sure you could tighten the lead down onto it.


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## broox (Nov 30, 2010)

Well good luck buddy!! I am not trying to split hairs, but is the word "hub" more descriptive of the thing you keep calling a "flange"? A hub or bell is probably what was in that lead that you cut out. I am just trying to picture what your deal looks like. GOOD LUCK!!


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Which seems more labor intensive?


Ayuh,... As Usual,... the *Right* Way....


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

broox said:


> Well good luck buddy!! I am not trying to split hairs, but is the word "hub" more descriptive of the thing you keep calling a "flange"? A hub or bell is probably what was in that lead that you cut out. I am just trying to picture what your deal looks like. GOOD LUCK!!


I posted a picture of the flange I cut off the 1 1/2" lead pipe.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, I'm not trying to be difficult or do a cruddy job here. I don't think wiping on a new 1 1/4" pipe to the existing lead is doing it wrong. I could see if the lead was in poor shape or something. Yes, installing a Fernco coupler onto the lead is not the best solution. Taking all the lead out obviously seems like the best solution. What is the proper way to transition from the cast iron to plastic?
Thanks for all your advice!


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## kibblesret (Jan 22, 2011)

Sorry Turbo I was not counting on a lath and plaster wall. Something you might want to avoid ripping out unless that is within your skill set.

You are correct, the ribbed fitting is what plumbers use, some call it a "doughnut" as you stated.

I was not really equating the amount of labour but what the cost may be. I assumed you would do the wall thing yourself at little or no cost. If it is plaster that changes the game.

I have wiped on new lead flanges and it does not take that long. Tricky on old stuff but not impossible.

I'm not sure what a plumber in your area would charge to do that part though.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

kibblesret said:


> Sorry Turbo I was not counting on a lath and plaster wall. Something you might want to avoid ripping out unless that is within your skill set.
> 
> You are correct, the ribbed fitting is what plumbers use, some call it a "doughnut" as you stated.
> 
> ...


I understand. It's no big deal. I know you're just trying to help. Yeah, I'd do the wall myself if it came down to that. No easy like you said but we've done it before. 

If I could find a plumber who is willing to do it, that would be great. I guess I'll keep looking. I just don't get why the flange being cut off is such a huge issue. 

Thanks again.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Plumbers around here seem to be in the $85-95/hour range. I'd pay somebody for their time to do it. That's not really the issue. It's finding somebody to do it. I guess they are all just too busy to mess with a small job like that.


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## kibblesret (Jan 22, 2011)

Yes a lot of the really skilled folks are usually hard to get. 

Trouble with your project is that a lot of qualified guys hate lead. If they do the work they have to make sure it is right and go good for it if there is an issue later. In most cases the going all plastic is the method of choice since it has less chance of a mess up. Also the guy doing the plumbing won't be the one to fix the plaster which in my mind requires an artist.

Don't give up though. There are a lot of folks that need extra money in times like this and even if they decide against the job they may give you some good on site pointers.

Good luck and don't sweat the small stuff, no pun intended.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Haha. Yeah, I just have to keep looking for the right guy who is willing to do this work. You’d think if the plumbers wanted more work because of any slow down, they would get over their lead phobia and do it. Heck, there are 14 other sinks in the house and we aren’t going to tear out plaster walls, etc every time a J-bend starts leaking. I even told the one plumber.

I’ve also seen glued plastic joints leak so they aren’t bullet proof either. It seems to me that doing a lead joint under the basin where you can see if it ever starts to drip is as “risky” as doing all new plastic. With the plastic and the doughnut, it’s all hidden in the wall where you might not detect a leak until damage has occurred. 

Anyway, we’ll keep plugging away at it.
Thanks.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

BTW, what does the "flange" look like under all of that lead (in the pictures I posted)? Is it like a large washer that fits over the lead pipe then the 1 1/4" brass pipe is wiped into that?


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

I know I'll probably get chastised for this option..... But if we have to get into the wall, what about cutting off the lead right before the brass ferrule and then carefully melting/softening up the lead and cleaning up the ferrule. Then we can use a Fernco coupler and securely join that to the 1 1/2" plastic and go from there. That to me is more stable than removing the ferrule and dealing with that doughnut--which apparently can be tricky to get to seal. The only thing I don't know at this point is the diameter of the ferrule and I haven't seen a Fernco that can join two different diameter pipes (small ones like these anyway). 

What do you all think?
Thanks.


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, I think we have a retired plumber coming over to wipe in the joint. He hasn’t seen it yet but I described the deal to him and he said it should be no huge deal. He did say it would be easier if the flange was still attached. So hopefully that works out. If not, we’ll have to get into the wall and see what’s up.

For what it’s worth, here are a couple pics. This one is of the lead pipe as it sits now. You can see some of the imperfections probably due to the tool they used to bend it. But overall, the lead is in fine shape:


I found another lead drain pipe in the house in the basement that is exposed. I took a pic of the joint where it’s leaded into the stack. I assume there is a brass ferrule underneath that lead. So I imagine all of the lead/CI joints are similar to this. It‘s not the best pic. The camera wouldn‘t take it in macro mode for some reason:


Anyway, thought somebody might like to see these.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks for the pics Turbo98. Lead is not seen much around my parts. When we do see it, we replace it with plastic as others have stated here. I'm interested in seeing the end result. In fact, could you post some "in progress photo's" when your plumber arrives?


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## Turbo98 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, here’s what’s up now. I thought we were near the end of this project but apparently not. The plumber came out and did a good job on the pipe considering there wasn’t much there to work with (since I cut it off). Here is a pic of what he did:


While he was out, I had him do another one that had a borderline corroded pipe. He heated it up, took that one out and wiped this one in. Overall, he does nice work:


But after putting it all back together, the one was still leaking around the lead joint area and we couldn’t believe it. We looked into it very closely and then noticed that there is a hole in the lead pipe! Unreal! I’m sure this was there all of the time but was now larger because we disturbed that area. Here are a couple pics with a screw stuck in it:




I can’t believe that between us and the plumber, we didn’t notice this. Now we’re off to plan C which will be opening up the wall. I know there will be people saying “I told you so” saying to just go with plastic to begin with. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way I guess. 

The plumber did mention that if we could get into the wall, he would just melt the lead off the brass ferrule that is leaded into the cast iron hub and use a “no hub” connector on the ferrule and tie into plastic there. So we will attempt to carefully melt off the lead and clean the ferrule up to receive the “no hub” connector. So this confirmed my thoughts of doing this vs. cutting out the ferrule.

One question though. What’s the difference between a “no hub” connector and the Fernco coupler? So they sell these “no hub” connectors at Home Depot or Lowes?

Thanks again for everybody’s help. If anybody is interested, I will post some more pictures along the way.


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## kibblesret (Jan 22, 2011)

*your leak in lead*

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about the hole you have your screw in. 

By the looks of your older pictures that small dent near the spiral marks on the pipe was done when the lead pipe was installed. When the pipe got heated now the remaining thin piece of lead melted away. That could be fixed by wiping it but me thinks it is time to change the pipe out. No worries then.

A pipe can be called a nohub pipe if it has smooth ends and no spigot or hub (bell) on the ends. 

Fernco makes no hub couplers. I guess the way to describe a hub in a coupler is that there is an internal shoulder that the pipe stops on when you insert your new pipe. A no hub could slide along the pipe right past the end and be pulled back. Fernco no hubs have a stainless band around them so the pressure is even all the way around.

Post pictures for sure! Good luck too!


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