# particle board question???



## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I want to install 5/8" bamboo hardwood floors and ceramic tile in my recently purchased 31 Y/O house. Right now under the carpet and vinyl flooring is 5/8 toungue and groove (on a 45), with 5/8 particle board nailed on top, throughout. I understand the particle board will have to be replaced with some real plywood, so I can nail the flooring into the plywood. My question is will the particle board be OK where the tile is going to go? since the tile gets glued, not nailed. Is this true?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Tile is set in thinset on a floor and never glued. And tile cannot be set on particle board. Are you sure this is not OSB? If the OSB is advantec or similar tile can be set on it after installing 1/4" cement backer board over the OSB. If it is particle board replace it with exterior grade 3/4" plywood for the tile and 3/4" plywood for the flooring.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Whats the difference between, OSB and particle board? How do I tell the difference?

What is Thinset? A form of adhesive similar to the mud that is used when laying block?

I am trying to avoid removing all this particle board, the cabinets sit on top of it for instance.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

You can use a undercut trim saw to cut cleanly along the cabinets. (rent one). OSB uses wood flakes. The pieces look like slivers glued together. Most OSB on a floor will be something like Advantec, which is a very good sub-flooring. Particle board is used as an underlayment for carpeting. Looks more yellowish and is made with glued sawdust. Post a picture, I will tell you what you have there now.

Thinset is a mortar like product with good sticky-ness. Not an adhesive. I assume you have osb. If so, use Ditra over this. It wil provide waterproofing so the wood does not deteriorate from moisture moving though the grout (which it does, even if sealed) ; provide uncoupling so that the expanding and contraction of wood is not transmitted to the tile to avoid cracking or tile and grout ; and it provides a means for the moisture in the wood to bet out through the voids in this membrane. check out the specs at http://www.schluter.com/media/brochures/DitraHandbook-2008-ENG.pdf


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi guys,

Axhammer, you're thinking of installing ceramic tiles, BUT don't know what thin set is? OH BOY....:whistling2:

OSB looks like this: http://images.google.com/images?q=o...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

Particle board; http://www.poplitewood.com/Photos/FireRetardantParticleBoard.JPG


Bob,

Thin set mortar is TOO an adhesive! You're thinking of mastic. Do you realize your told our guest to undercut the cabinet? What will that do except collapse the base cabinets? You don't undercut cabinets.

Jaz


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

He asked how to cut the particle board when cabinets are already on top. I said cut along the cabinets..... Now I cannot think of anyone that would assume I meant to cut the cabinets, since this still would not help remove the particle board that he asked how to do. Gee! 

Thinset is a sticky motar, I just do not think of it as an adhesive. See this definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesive Whereas Mastic is more of a tile glue. (adhesive) which I was trying to direct hem away from. Also I have read of some thinking silicone or PL400 is to be used with tile. More adhesives. Non-modified thinset is specifed in some cases for CBU so the thinset does not adhere to the plywood thus providing some un-coupling. So.. I see this as thinset not being considered an adhesive.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

OK, Bob, I see what you meant. An undercut saw will not do what you said. An undercut saw cuts off the bottom of things, it cuts horizontally not vertically. I got it though.:thumbsup:

Call the thinset what you want. Just remember adhesive can be good, but mastic is not a good thing to use in a tile project unless it's on a dry vertical area like a kitchen backsplash. 

Jaz


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

okay Jazman... a Bosh undercut saw that HD rents can be used since it has a flat coarse tooth blade and can be set up against the edge of the cabinet, as it this vertical edge was a floor and cut the particle board if so desired. The particle board if you will would be like the trim that you are undercutting. A sawsall could be used, but not by a DIYer, since you can only use the tip of a very long blade and need lots of experience to make that work. I also have a 3" saw or use a 4" angle grinder. But we as pros have every tool in the trailer. A diyer may have to rent something. The one I mentioned is safer. Also explained that I would not remove the OSB since I would not think anyway designed the house to have carpet in the bath or kitchen areas.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

JazMan said:


> OK, Bob, I see what you meant. An undercut saw will not do what you said. An undercut saw cuts off the bottom of things, it cuts horizontally not vertically. I got it though.:thumbsup:
> 
> Call the thinset what you want. Just remember adhesive can be good, but mastic is not a good thing to use in a tile project unless it's on a dry vertical area like a kitchen backsplash.
> 
> Jaz


Hey I am not the only one who thought of this tool.. see a new post
http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/hardwood-project-42049/


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I’m learning here…

Thin-set mortar in used to set tile not glue, I didn’t know what to call the stuff, now I do. (I still think of it as an adhesive)

I have particle board, over tongue and groove (not OSB).

I understand the particleboard will not take a nail, so it needs to be replaced with plywood or OSB for the area getting the hardwood floors nailed in place. 

Can someone explain why the latex PC mortar and Ditra cannot go on top of the particle board? What am I missing?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Because NOTHING can be adhered direct to PB, and PB is very unstable. PB, will suck the life out of the thin set, it is guaranteed..............to fail. 

And yes thin set mortar is an adhesive no doubt about that. :thumbsup:

Jaz


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Particle board will fail from just the moisture in the thinset.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, I think I get it, the particleboard will be weakened from moisture, the mortar will just break away.

I guess I'll buy the special saw and remove the particleboard, and replace with plywood or OSB.

Would it be OK to cut the particleboard close to the walls and cabinets, around 6" or so. Then just replace the stuff everywhere but the 6" perimeter strips adjacent to the cabinets and walls? Its not like these areas get much foot traffiic. I was just thinking it might be easier to pry it up, since the perimeter areas seem to have lots of nails, plus I would'nt be so close to my freshly painted walls, as the sheets of particleboard are getting pried up.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

I don't know I would stay back 6", but a few shouldn't matter? You're lucky you have a subfloor under it, or you'd have to install blocking under those new seams. You're gonna install a CBU or membrane over the new plywood before the tiles of course. 

Did we talk about the joists to be sure they will support a tile installation? I didn't feel like reading this whole thread again. I don't recall talking about joists.

Jaz


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Particle board is not a good underlayment. It should never be used where there is moisture such as kitchens and baths. It will fail!


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Joists, what do I need to look for? 16" OC?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Axhammer said:


> Joists, what do I need to look for? 16" OC?


Size, spacing, and span


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm out of town, I'll post more info this weekend, Thanks!


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, I just crawled out from under the house. The hardest part was getting in and out of the little access openings, I'm 6'3" @ 250. The previous owner just put in a moisture barrier, so it is dry and fairly clean down there. Keep in mind this house is approximately 2600’. It has a family room on a slab, about 24’ x 24’, the main house is built up 2-3 feet, and then there is a finished room above the (family room on the slab), and an attic. The main floor, is supported by a 6x6 structure on cinder blocks. The 6x6’s are situated to support the joist’s with about 8’ spacing. The area next to the slab (10' X 24') has about 10 feet span, everywhere else has a 8' span. The joist'S are resting on the 6x6 structure. The joists are 2x8, 16 O/C.

It all looks very sturdy to me, but what do I know, I’m an airplane mechanic…


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

2 X 8 are small, but at least the span is also small. Review this article for more on sub-floor issues. 
NielsenWoeste.pdf


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, thanks for the report. 

I guess I'll crawl back under the house and look for any damage or sagging joists specificlly. In addition to modifications to any joist's that would compromise structural integrity, affecting load capacity.

If I find nothing, what next?

Is 6 x 6 supporting 2 x 8 joists on a 16 OC spacing strong enough to span 10' with ceramic tile on top? The last thing I want is to overload the joist's and create other problems? 

Is this structure OK for 5/8 hardwood floors? 

Is this structure OK for ceramic tile?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

1. How far apart are the *supports* for the 6x6's? 

2. Measure the *span* of the 2x8's under the tile area. 

30 years ago, we installed particle board, not osb. 

An undercut saw is for undercutting door jambs. A toe-kick saw is rented at box stores, cuts up to 3/4" deep under the cabinet toe kicks.

2x8 at 16"o.c. doug/fir span 12'8" (50# load per square foot) Measure your spans. 

Do not use CDX as underlayment for tile, because of the air pockets in it. It is _not _rated for floors. 

Be safe, GBAR


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

GBAR in WA said:


> 1. How far apart are the *supports* for the 6x6's?
> 
> 2. Measure the *span* of the 2x8's under the tile area.
> 
> ...


1. The cinder blocks are spaced 5' apart, under the 6x6 structure, except one area that is a 24' long cider block wall.

2. The area I want to put the tile on has the solid wall on one side for support and the other side has the cinder blocks spaced 5'. The joists are spanning less than 10 feet in this area, probably closer to 9'.

3. What is CDX underlayment?

4. What "lbs per square feet" rating do I need to install ceramic tile?

5. What "lbs per square feet" rating do I need for 5/8" hardwood floors?

What part of WA you in?

I did four years at Air Sta Port Angeles, 1986-1990, it was a great place!

Thanks!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The support sounds sturdy to me. I understand you want 1-1/8" - 1-1/4" plywood layers to make it stiff enough for tile, plus cbu.
Short of jumping on the floor, or using a deflection gauge, does anyone have helpfull suggestions?
Google "john bridge floor deflection" 
*Would any tile installers chime in, please?*

CDX is a grade for plywood, C grade on one face, D on the other, and X for exterior glue holding it together. On the D grade, air pockets are allowed, from knotholes in the skin when it is peeled off the log blank by the lathe. They are not filled in on the D side or the middle, so "air pockets". When you install the cbu with thinset, you want solid bearing allover. This ply is rated for walls and roofs, not floors. Buy a CCX, or BCX plywood.

I'm SE of where you stationed, below Seattle. Be safe, GBR


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

*flooring project complete!*

I finished my flooring project this week, man I'm glad thats over...

I worked on it every weekend for the last couple months or so, my real job is a 40 hour a week deal, I havent had a weekend off since the ET finals @ Rockingham in October...

I put in about 1000' of .75 hardwood oak and about 300' of porcelin tile...

The hardest part was removing the particle board first...

I bought a "flooring book" at Lowe's that helped out a lot and of course the folks here that helped...

Thanks to everyone who replied, and Happy 2010!!!

I'll post some pics later


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## sourek (Jan 4, 2010)

I do flooring for a living. It's called a toe kick saw. The flooring guy should have known this lol.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I used a $39 multi tool from Harbor Freight to cut around the cabinets and to trim the door jambs, probably not the best way but it worked out OK...


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The Kitchen...


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