# Tapcon into concrete.



## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

A regular drill just spins, while a hammer drill spins and hammers the bit. Concrete is a mixture of cement, sand and aggregate (stones). A regular drill will hit a stone and go no further. The hammering action will split the small stones and drill through them.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Thank you for that. I am currently using a normal drill...so now I know that if I run into something that I might just 'in and out' the drill a little...not that it is the best solution but it might do the trick!

Thanks again.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> so now I know that if I run into something that I might just 'in and out' the drill a little...not that it is the best solution but it might do the trick!


It won't. :no:

A hammer drill hammers thousands of times a minute. You can't replicate that.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

the termite is correct! :laughing::laughing: it reminds me seeing a home owner using a sawzall as a hand saw unplugged. why bother.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> It won't. :no:
> 
> A hammer drill hammers thousands of times a minute. You can't replicate that.


...but...but...I'm a machine!!


:jester:


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

You also need to use carbide tipped masonry drills in your drill for making holes in concrete, hammer or otherwise. If you are installing Tapcons as the title says, you also need to be sure they are the correct diameter for your Tapcons, otherwise you will either break the Tapcons or they will pull out.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Maintenance 6 said:


> You also need to use carbide tipped masonry drills in your drill for making holes in concrete, hammer or otherwise. If you are installing Tapcons as the title says, you also need to be sure they are the correct diameter for your Tapcons, otherwise you will either break the Tapcons or they will pull out.


Yes. Great point. I am using the bit that comes in the box with the Tapcons.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Also, use a nut driver in the hammer drill to install the tapcons with the hammering action engaged. Those that would twist off with a normal drill will sink like they were going into butta!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Also, use a nut driver in the hammer drill to install the tapcons with the hammering action engaged. Those that would twist off with a normal drill will sink like they were going into butta!


He's kinda lacking the hammer feature. :no:


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

As the op states


smorgdonkey said:


> ...but...but...I'm a machine!!
> 
> 
> :jester:


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

I spent 2 hours trying to drill a hole in concrete with a regular drill with a masonary drill bit. I still didn't get it deep enough to be any good. A hammer drill did the job in about 30 seconds. 
A regular drill drills by cutting, a hammer drill drills by chiseling.


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## baxter (Sep 8, 2008)

O P if you dont mind me asking, exactly what is your project and what type of foam are you using?


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## Winchester (Aug 27, 2008)

Why not a proper construction adhesive?

A hammer drill is like a jackhammer vs. using shear pressure to break up concrete pads.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Another way to attach foam to concrete is to use "stick clips".

A stick clip has a large base that you glue to the concrete. Out of the middle of the base is a prong that's 2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 inches long.

You just impale the foam onto the sticks, and then push on metal "washers" (that will push on, but won't come off) to hold the foam snugly in place.

You can buy stick clips at any hardware store or home center.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

baxter said:


> O P if you dont mind me asking, exactly what is your project and what type of foam are you using?


My project is insulating my basement. Extruded foam (code board) and cover with drywall. It isn't going that well even though I have acquired a hammer drill. I'd say that the bit is toast already and I only have about 5 holes drilled. How much money will I have to spend on a drill bit that will last?

I can't insulate and leave it bare because in the event of a fire the gases given off by the stuff would likely kill me before a smoke alarm would wake me...see what I'm saying? I am very much open to using alternative methods now that I have scratched the surface of nearly deafening myself with the hammer drill and getting essentially nowhere along with wearing out one bit for half a dozen-ish holes and a good aching pain in my arm.

I am considering using adhesive and then applying strapping via a glued base board (improper term?) and then attaching the top of the strapping to the joists above (unfinished basement ceiling).

Nestor...that sounds SO easy but how to apply the drywall after that?


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> He's kinda lacking the hammer feature. :no:


Told you he'd get the hammer drill :thumbup:!



OP - check your technique while drilling...the drill bit that comes with the tapcons usually works very well for all in the package and more. Steady straight pressure is you friend, if you try to force it in, you're defeating the hammer drill function. The drill has to have the ability to hammer at the bit while it rotates. If you apply brute force, you're not letting the drill do it's work and you may as well use a regular drill. A couple of summers ago I drilled in maybe 200 or so with the same bit.

You could always use a washer headed remmington nail...just watch your ears!

You could change designs, and make a stud wall inside your existing basement wall insulated with fiberglass. Then all you'd have to do is fasten the wall to the concrete or the floor joist above and basement floor below.


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## baxter (Sep 8, 2008)

I think a quality polyurethane adhesive would do the trick for the foam AND the drywall. It is by far easier, quicker and quieter than tapcons.

You would be amazed at what the expanding foams (not sure of the TOS, dont want to mention a brand name and get in trouble) will do as an adhesive. There a couple of tricks involved, but it is truly amazing Stuff. If youre intrested, pm me and I will go into further detail.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Um...your avatar is wearing a devil hat and you have 666 posts...

Anyway, I'll try to pay attention to the technique but I am sure that first bit is toast.

Is this a viable alternative?

1-use adhesive to put the foam boards up
2-use adhesive to attach strapping to foam boards
3-use drywall screws to attach the drywall to the strapping

4-use some sort of improvised method to attach the strapping to the actual structure of the house to keep the wall(s) from coming down!! Possibly including the baseboard adhered to the floor.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks baxter. I can't pm you because I don't have enough posts but I definitely would be interested in a Tapcon-less method. I have seen that adhesive hold things that I could hardly believe so I can imagine that it must be able to hold up walls...particularly if I have the added feature of fastening the top of the wall to the overhead joists and possibly a baseboard on the floor as well.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

YIKES...the planets must be out of alignment some where...posting again to get off that number....

Check out the links in this post http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=27193 I give some names of foams and some other thoughts.

Personally I don't think I would fasten the strapping with the foam, that would imply that it's structural, and I'm not sure I'd go there, I don't think that would be an appropriate use. I would however encourage you to maybe think of the Remington powder fasteners...check out this post http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=25450 You could glue the foam up, and use the Remington fasteners to hold the strapping up and drywall to that.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Well...I tried the slow and steady pressure with good/great results for a couple of holes. I was even patient and calm enough to say "I'll drill a couple inches away" if it was stalled (I assumed a larger rock in the concrete or something) and moved steadily-ish at a pace that I would be completely happy with IF I COULD GET FURTHER THAN 8 LINEAR FEET!!! 

I am at the end of my freaking rope with this BS method...2 bits/20-ish holes/12 holes that are actually the way that they are supposed to be.

I am pissed off. I have two 4 foot panels of insulation up in my basement and if this method worked like it is supposed to I would be finished half of my basement or more by now.


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## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Also, use a nut driver in the hammer drill to install the tapcons with the hammering action engaged. Those that would twist off with a normal drill will sink like they were going into butta!



Could you please clarify on this? Are you saying that after drilling the hole, it is best to load the tapcon screw onto the hammer drill and drill it in with the hammer feature still engaged? It seems like this would either strip out the hole, or damage the screw...

I always screw them in by hand - but then again I've never actually drilled one into concrete, just cinder block and mortar.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Also, use a nut driver in the hammer drill to install the tapcons with the hammering action engaged.  Those that would twist off with a normal drill will sink like they were going into butta!


How do you do this? Change the chuck? I just have the twist lock chuck (for hammer drill bits) on my Hilte.

Jamie


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> Well...I tried the slow and steady pressure with good/great results for a couple of holes. I was even patient and calm enough to say "I'll drill a couple inches away" if it was stalled (I assumed a larger rock in the concrete or something) and moved steadily-ish at a pace that I would be completely happy with IF I COULD GET FURTHER THAN 8 LINEAR FEET!!!
> 
> I am at the end of my freaking rope with this BS method...2 bits/20-ish holes/12 holes that are actually the way that they are supposed to be.
> 
> I am pissed off. I have two 4 foot panels of insulation up in my basement and if this method worked like it is supposed to I would be finished half of my basement or more by now.


Man something is wrong, way wrong. Last week, I put in 50 tapcons, set about 2 inches into concrete, no problems, all the same bit, and that was an OLD bit that had done many many many other holes. I had no problems with it.

My 12" long 1/2" bit has been used for at least 200-300 holes through 8 inch poured concrete with re-rod in it, and it still works just fine.

The bits don't wear out that fast, even if you hit rocks, or rerod. 

Maybe a better hammer drill is called for? What are you using (brand?)?

I used a Hilte Te5, it is my favorite out of a number of hammer drills I have used.

Jamie


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

dc4nomore said:


> Could you please clarify on this? Are you saying that after drilling the hole, it is best to load the tapcon screw onto the hammer drill and drill it in with the hammer feature still engaged? It seems like this would either strip out the hole, or damage the screw...
> 
> I always screw them in by hand - but then again I've never actually drilled one into concrete, just cinder block and mortar.


That's right. It's not unlike the action of an impact wrench. When I used a a normal drill...the screws would twist about the time they were drawn up tight, talk about frustrating.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> How do you do this? Change the chuck? I just have the twist lock chuck (for hammer drill bits) on my Hilte.
> 
> Jamie


I'm not familiar with that chuck. I was using this Bosch model that has a standard Jacobs chuck. I drove the screws with both the tapcon drill/driver set and regular nut setters. The advantage of the the condrive is having the driver and drill all in one. The downside is the driver is marginal, and the separate nut setters are much higher quality.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> Man something is wrong, way wrong. Last week, I put in 50 tapcons, set about 2 inches into concrete, no problems, all the same bit, and that was an OLD bit that had done many many many other holes. I had no problems with it.


"something is wrong"...you can say that again!!

The hammer drill that I am using is Black And Decker (I know it isn't a big fancy brand) but it is a 6.5 amp one and it has NO PROBLEM with the first few holes...then the bit is fuming and generating so much heat that the insulation is melting and everything...I may be done with this method. I am just sick of no progress. My concrete is 55+ years old...just too hard?


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> then the bit is fuming and generating so much heat that the insulation is melting and everything...I may be done with this method. I am just sick of no progress. My concrete is 55+ years old...just too hard?


Clean your bit between each hole, you are fouling the cutting edge with the insulation. Try sacrificing the same size twist bit in your regular drill motor to drill through the insulation, then swith to the hammer drill and bit for the concrete.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

47_47 said:


> Clean your bit between each hole, you are fouling the cutting edge with the insulation. Try sacrificing the same size twist bit in your regular drill motor to drill through the insulation, then swith to the hammer drill and bit for the concrete.


Thanks...I will employ that info into my regimen as well...I just returned from the building supply store and they (some experienced DIY employees) flat-out told me that the bits that come with the Tapcons suck. 'Suck' was their word...so I got a couple of others and will try again. They also stated that the 55+ year old concrete was likely very hard (which I agree with)...

Progress report tomorrow...(?)


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## baxter (Sep 8, 2008)

OP: grab a can of Great Stuff expanding foam and a couple pieces of scrap foam board to practice with. apply a bead of Stuff to one pc of foam (stay away from the edge 1" or 1 1/2" ). Next, place the other pc of foam on top and kind of squish and slide it around a little bit and then pull it off. This spreads the Stuff around and will eliminate the expanding properties. In approx 1 minute, depending on temp and humidity, the Stuff should start to tack up and become stringy when you touch it with your finger and pull it away. If low humidity, use a spray bottle with water and lightly mist the Stuff after squishing it around. Once it becomes tacky, place the foam pcs back together and hold firmly until bonded, usually just a minute or two. You may have to try a couple pcs to get the hang of it and see how works.

If satisfied with the results, use the same process and start applying your insulation to the walls. If you decide to use this method, when the Stuff is not going to be used for a few minutes or overnight, bend the straw at the end and clamp with vise grips or something similar to prevent the glue from drying in the straw.

If you have alot of square footage, you might want to google EnerFoam (made by the same company as Stuff and basicly the same, wind loaded to 150 mph I think) and find a distributor near you. You can buy a 26 oz can for around 20 bucks and a dispensing gun for around 45. With the gun you can adjust the bead size and close it down without having the hassle of it drying in the straw. If taken care of, the gun will last for a long time and you will probably find it useful for other projects.

I hope this helps.

Baxter


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

*Results!!!*

Ok....I am having sweet success. I want to thank everyone for their input. Compiling everyone's input into practical use here is the score:

1. drill through your other material with another bit as a precaution to keep your masonry bit clean (thanks 47 47)
2. steady straight pressure is your friend!! (special thanks to RippySkippy)
3. ensure that you drill the hole into the concrete 1/4 inch deeper than the screw will penetrate
4. if your concrete is really old and very hard like mine you are likely goingto need a new bit. I have heard from many people that the Tapcon-supplied bit is crap (although many here have had success with them). If you are following all previous steps (1-3) and having no progress then I suggest the Bosch Blue Granite Hammer Drill Bit. At $7 it has already paid for itself by giving me a stress free session working in the basement with no curse words.

Still honeymooning it but so far it hasn't 'hit' anything that it didn't drill through and actually seemed like a completely different experience than using the other bits.

Long-term progress report in a couple of days after I have 50 holes or so drilled.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Congrats! Kinda sweet when something works isn't it?


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Congrats! Kinda sweet when something works isn't it?


Emphatically YES!!!

Particularly when it was going SOOOO BAD prior...

Thanks again.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Another way to attach foam to concrete is to use "stick clips".
> 
> A stick clip has a large base that you glue to the concrete. Out of the middle of the base is a prong that's 2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 inches long.
> 
> ...


 Just finished using stick pins for insulating a basement wall.
Just place a dab of construction adhesive where you want to locate the pin. Press the perforated pin base into the dab and leave over-night.
Then press the insulation over the pin and secure it with a locking tab.
The sharp end of the pin is then turned back on itself to prevent injuries.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Wildie said:


> Just finished using stick pins for insulating a basement wall.
> Just place a dab of construction adhesive where you want to locate the pin. Press the perforated pin base into the dab and leave over-night.
> Then press the insulation over the pin and secure it with a locking tab.
> The sharp end of the pin is then turned back on itself to prevent injuries.


...and how do you attach your drywall?


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> ...and how do you attach your drywall?


 In my case, i used Roxul bat insulation with a vapor barrier
over the top. had no plan to add drywall.

If foam insulation is used and it must be covered with a fire barrier, the pins could be cut at the locking tab and the board glued to the foam.

I personally, would not use foam on wall, if board is required.
I would install studs and mount the board to this in an approved manner. Insulated in the stud cavity, of course.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

That's fine if there is no activity in the area that will cause damage to the vapor barrier and such and/or if the space is not going to be used.

My point for asking how the drywall is attached is that the foams do require being covered due to the fire issue.

I am planning on covering the wall with foam and strapping then sandwiching another layer of foam over the strapping with the drywall. Super insulated walls with very little space being used up. I think that is far superior to using the typical 'insulation inside the stud cavity' method with no 'breaks' in the insulation due to the studs and less affected by moisture/humidity issues as well.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> That's fine if there is no activity in the area that will cause damage to the vapor barrier and such and/or if the space is not going to be used.
> 
> My point for asking how the drywall is attached is that the foams do require being covered due to the fire issue.
> 
> I am planning on covering the wall with foam and strapping then sandwiching another layer of foam over the strapping with the drywall. Super insulated walls with very little space being used up. I think that is far superior to using the typical 'insulation inside the stud cavity' method with no 'breaks' in the insulation due to the studs and less affected by moisture/humidity issues as well.


 I like studded walls as its easy to mount electrical boxes, run cables, fasten drywall, install baseboards and hang heavy stuff such as bookcases and TV's.
Window coves can be finished easily, as there is good nailing around the perimeter.
In the future its possible fish the walls if necessary.
In the past I've considered the same thing that you plan, but always ended up with wood studs, as they allow maximum flexibility.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Wildie said:


> I like studded walls as its easy to mount electrical boxes, run cables, fasten drywall, install baseboards and hang heavy stuff such as bookcases and TV's.
> Window coves can be finished easily, as there is good nailing around the perimeter.
> In the future its possible fish the walls if necessary.
> In the past I've considered the same thing that you plan, but always ended up with wood studs, as they allow maximum flexibility.


All good points indeed. Can't argue with any of them. I suppose that my situation is a bit unique in some ways such as I have no windows (previous owner insulated them, closed them up and covered them with tin on the outside).

My basement is nice and dry as far as basements go and my garage is in my basement as well (of course divided by a wall from the rest of the space). I may end up using it as a master bedroom in the future (although I have a drum kit and my laundry facilities down there too).

Anyway, as a first plunge into a DIY project I am comfortable with my choices so far (I did a pile of research) and happy with my progress after my initial hiccups...

On a related note to the hiccups...I happened to step on my Bosch drill bit and it bent a little...I straightened it as best I could but there's a good wobble in it...and it is STILL cutting through the concrete smoothly...then I went a notch further and started going through the insulation with it and still no problems. 

The Tapcon supplied drill bits suck compared to the beautiful Bosch!!


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## Winchester (Aug 27, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> I may end up using it as a master bedroom in the future.


This would be against code in Illinois since there are no windows. I also believe they have to be large enough to allow escape in case of a fire.


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Winchester said:


> This would be against code in Illinois since there are no windows. I also believe they have to be large enough to allow escape in case of a fire.


It would be here too I believe but I have the stairs to get to the main level AND a door to get out my garage...so, since there are 2 means of escape possibly there could be an exception(?).


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## smorgdonkey (Sep 22, 2008)

Almost a box of screws finished and the Bosch is still going strong...once in a while I try to bend it straight again with very little success but what the heck!!


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