# Paintable caulk bubbling and "rising" under a professional spray?



## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm remodeling the kitchen and painting the cabinets white. After weeks I'm 95% done and had a contractor come and spray the cabinet doors and drawer fronts as I was not happy with how smooth my foam rolling came out. I spent days stripping the doors, priming and applying a small line of caulk inside each bezel of the doors to eliminate black gaps.

The contractor has finished 2 coats on the fronts and several of the doors have something strange going on. At spots along the caulked area, the caulk seems to have slightly bubbled and lifted or raised up along the edges. It's not along all of the caulk but in several spots. It's almost like the sprayed paint somehow made the caulk loose and not adhere to the door. It did not do this during the first coat at all.

DAP 3.0 paintable white caulk was used and I've used it several times before with no problems but that was always with rolling, not spraying. I've attached a photo below. Has anyone ever had this happen? More importantly, any suggestions for fixing or at least making it better? The only thing I can think of is carefully slicing off the bad areas with a razor, possibly recaulking them and brushing on a light coat or two of paint. It's unfortunate as they distract from the otherwise beautiful and smooth doors.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't think it's the caulk or the spray's fault.You have raised panel doors that are supposed to move a little and the panels have pushed the caulking out.It's going to be hard to touch up with a brush with sprayed doors.You may need to cut the caulk out and have the doors sprayed again.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If those panels can not float it can crack the panel.
Ever seen an old wooden door with cracked panels, it's because the paint has bonded the panel to the rails and stiles. As they expand and contracts it cracks the panel.
Better made door are built like this.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...3121776E1D0216C2B565E963CC45A&selectedIndex=1


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm not sure it's due to movement. The doors were primed and caulked and sat for close to 2 weeks before being painted and there was no problem even after lots of physical movement during the 2 weeks. The problem still did not happen after the first sprayed coat or at all during the 24 hours between the 1st and 2nd coat, again during which the doors were shuffled and moved a bit. It only happened immediately following the 2nd coat when there was no physical movement at all. All of the doors immediately showed at least some of the problem along the caulk.

If it's the movement, wouldn't it be a coincidence that all of the doors would have the problem immediately following the 2nd coat before they were even physically touched?


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

With regards to not caulking the seams, there will be severe black gaps that can be seen instead. It will look like spots were missed when it's just the tiny gaps between the panel and the frame. In my opinion that may look even worse than the caulk problem.


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## spraygunn (Nov 14, 2010)

Hey shiftlft,

Homeowners often think painting cabinets will improve their appearance, but you just showed it can’t. Those panels in your doors MUST be able to float. In the process of allowing them to float you have small cracks between the panel and rails and stiles, a necessary evil. This is why you will not see a painted cabinet in the showroom without cracks. Manufactures have instead used the molded door and drawer. In short a plastic composition. The only way you could have halted that problem was to hire a painter experienced in using a bulk loading caulk gun with a fine nozzle. If you notice in your picture, the paint is flawed where the caulk was fingered and spread over the panel.

My recommendation is to scrape the caulk out, sand the edges smooth and refinish without recaulking.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

spraygunn said:


> Hey shiftlft,
> 
> Homeowners often think painting cabinets will improve their appearance, but you just showed it can’t. Those panels in your doors MUST be able to float. In the process of allowing them to float you have small cracks between the panel and rails and stiles, a necessary evil. This is why you will not see a painted cabinet in the showroom without cracks. Manufactures have instead used the molded door and drawer. In short a plastic composition. The only way you could have halted that problem was to hire a painter experienced in using a bulk loading caulk gun with a fine nozzle. If you notice in your picture, the paint is flawed where the caulk was fingered and spread over the panel.
> 
> My recommendation is to scrape the caulk out, sand the edges smooth and refinish without recaulking.


I'm sorry, I can't agree with the statement about painting cabinets not improving appearance. The painted cabinets look fantastic in white and have dramatically changed the room, and the caulk ripping issue here is more of a nuisance. And I'm not the first person in the world to paint their cabinets either.

Unfortunately my original question was how this could have happened and I still struggle with the answers that all of the panel doors suddenly and individually have caulk problems immediately following the 2nd coat of paint even though they were not physically moved. Not after being caulked and primed and sitting for 2 weeks and not after the 1st coat of paint in which they were shuffled around, but immediately after the 2nd coat when they were sprayed and left to sit for hours.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Well you have two choises, remove the caulking sand and finish the painting so you can rehang the doors.
Or spend days trying to figure out why it happened and have no doors.
The facts will not change, there should not have been caulking in that area, and there was to much used anyway.
The idea of caulking is to fill a gap, no need for it to all over the face of the doors.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Well you have two choises, remove the caulking sand and finish the painting so you can rehang the doors.
> Or spend days trying to figure out why it happened and have no doors.
> The facts will not change, there should not have been caulking in that area, and there was to much used anyway.
> The idea of caulking is to fill a gap, no need for it to all over the face of the doors.


Ouch, this place is rough. Then again so is every Internet forum, unfortunately.

The picture may be misleading if you believe there is caulk all over the face of the door. I used an extremely small amount of caulk in just the gap. I used such a small bead that I sanded off the tip of the caulk tube (not cut) and carefully smoothed it into the gap with a wet finger. The picture is very zoomed in so it may seem like the caulk is on the face but it is not. 

So to recap what I've been told on here far:

1) No one should paint any cabinets. They do not improve the appearance.
2) If one does paint cabinets, no caulk should be used and instead should live with the black gaps on the seams.


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## spraygunn (Nov 14, 2010)

Shiftlf,
Every project was manufactured to be finished in a particular way using a particular wood. If the cabinets were stained or finished using a natural color finish, then the doors can be made from oak, ash or other open grained wood species. What you are trying to do is to take a door that was made to be stained and finish it as painted and expect it to look like a door made of maple, poplar or birch. IT CAN’T BE DONE and be expected to look the same. Painting a wall using a matte finish is far more forgiving than a wall painted using a semi-gloss finish. Each wall must be prepped differently. Just as maple wood should be colored using a dye rather than an oil stain. 

Oh yes watching HGTV showing how it is so easy to paint cabinets and never showing a close up of the doors doesn’t make it any more attractive than yours. Now that you have done it, you see the close up. What they did on HGTV probably looked worse than yours but you’ll never know.

If you look closely at the picture, it shows the caulk where it has been fingered onto the surface of the panel and that is where the problem begins.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

shiftlft said:


> Ouch, this place is rough. Then again so is every Internet forum, unfortunately.
> 
> The picture may be misleading if you believe there is caulk all over the face of the door. I used an extremely small amount of caulk in just the gap. I used such a small bead that I sanded off the tip of the caulk tube (not cut) and carefully smoothed it into the gap with a wet finger. The picture is very zoomed in so it may seem like the caulk is on the face but it is not.
> 
> ...


Cabinets can be painted with the correct prep.Caulking floating panels is not the correct prep.They are built that way for a reason.Wood expands and contracts with humidity,temperature and lots of variables.Your doors are made up of 5 separate pieces of wood each expanding/contracting individually.That's why the caulk moved, the wood moved.You don't need caulk on the panels.If you can't live with the cracks, you need new doors made of MDF that have the same shape as the raised panel doors.You came here and asked a question and got the answer.Now you won't accept the answer.We can't help you.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

cdaniels said:


> Cabinets can be painted with the correct prep.Caulking floating panels is not the correct prep.They are built that way for a reason.Wood expands and contracts with humidity,temperature and lots of variables.Your doors are made up of 5 separate pieces of wood each expanding/contracting individually.That's why the caulk moved, the wood moved.You don't need caulk on the panels.If you can't live with the cracks, you need new doors made of MDF that have the same shape as the raised panel doors.


All of the doors expanded and contracted in the 2 hours after they were painted with the 2nd coat of paint? They didn't expand during the 2 weeks after being primed and caulked, and they didn't expand in the 24 hours after the 1st coat, but they all expanded at the same time immediately following the 2nd coat?


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## spraygunn (Nov 14, 2010)

After all your comments and professionals here answering your questions, I get the distinct impression that you’re implying that somehow it was the painter’s fault or the paint he used to spray the doors that is causing your problem. Right or Wrong? Has he been paid for his efforts?


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

Not at all, he did a great job. I just am having a problem understanding how it expanded and did this as soon as the second coat was applied.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

That's not from expansion. I noticed no one asked you what type of finish was applied right over top of that caulk. It looks like a solvent based and I'm betting that if all this failure occurred in a twenty four hour period during finishing and immediately after the second coat, the finish melted the edge and it curled. First lesson, don't use DAP caulk. Take a razor blade and gingerly cut away just the peeled section, or as much as you need to. You'll probably need to recaulk very lightly to smooth the created edge. Let it cure for a day or so. Take a very small brush and some longer drying oil primer and go over the caulk. Let that cure for a day or two. Try, try to lay some thinned out finish over that. Use the finish the sprayer had left over, that's probably fairly juiced. If this fails, start over.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

Jsheridan I certainly do respect your knowledge and opinion but I have never heard of any kind of paint dissolving caulk.Not saying it can't happen but I have never heard of it in over 25 years of painting.If this is the case why didn't it happen on the first coat? Again, not saying you're wrong, just trying to learn something.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I've had a few times where water caused the leading edge of caulk to curl and bubble just like that. You don't think a hot solvent could melt a cheap rubberized caulk?


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

I suppose it could.Especially if the paint was thinned with mineral spirits.Thanks.I still say raised panels shouldn't be caulked imho.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

jsheridan, thanks for the reply! I used Sherwin Williams ProClassic enamel cabinet and door paint. Last night I already have begun doing what you just described and it's looking great so far. It would make sense if this was the reason for the curling rather than expansion to every door happening 2 hours after the 2nd coat. 

I understand there are better caulks for painting over. Apparently at my local Lowes that day they must have been out of most of them as I spent over 20 minutes reading and examining all the caulks and DAP 3.0 seemed to be the best one that was paintable. I may have been wrong. 

It is refreshing to receive actually reply that's helpful and offers a potential cause rather than replies telling me it's not possible to paint doors and to stop wasting time thinking about why it happened and just go fix it. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't spray, but I have, and I've worked on crews where spraying was done. I don't remember thinner being the go to for spraying. Naptha, acetone, xylene, lacquer thinner, etc. On xylene "Other substances that xylene will dissolve are: adhesives (glues, caulks, and putties), grease, enamels, resins and water proofing agents."

I may be wrong, but I don't think enough questions were asked of OP prior to conclusion. That caulk didn't pull away, it melted and curled.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Shift, is that latex or oil? And do you know what he used to thin it. Even if it was latex and water thinned I stand behind the reason for the failure. Buy the caulk where you bought the paint, at a real paint store.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

jsheridan said:


> Shift, is that latex or oil? And do you know what he used to thin it. Even if it was latex and water thinned I stand behind the reason for the failure. Buy the caulk where you bought the paint, at a real paint store.


It's latex. I'm not sure what he used to thin it, I'm sorry. Your reason for the failure sounds spot on to me. Thanks!


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

If you click on the pic it gets much larger and you can see that the caulk is still bonded to the door, it's just wrinkled and bubbled. As you said, they sat fine for two weeks, and then in a 24 hour period, over which two coats of paint were applied, then it all of sudden happened. Funny, I read on DAP 3.0, it's supposed to be superior for water resistance, better than silicone, huh. 
I did a job a few years ago where I had to do a lot of caulking on window sills with non-insulated glass, and it was about 20 degrees outside. The condensation built up on the glass, ran down, and puddled on the sill. It caused all the caulk on the sill wrinkle and curl and it looked just like that. That's the first thing I thought of when I saw it.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

Still looks like expansion to me.The caulk is stretched and pulled loose around the edges making it look curled.No way a waterborne paint melted 2 week old caulk.Two coats of latex would make it swell.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

May be one of those things we'll never know. I probably feel as strongly that two coats of paint will not penetrate a coat of cured primer to cause enough swelling to damage caulk as you feel about wet latex activating and curling the caulk. I'm not saying you're wrong, just seems less logical. Maybe a chemist/technical guy, ahem, might come along and enlighten us, lol.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

_"Sherwin Williams ProClassic enamel cabinet and door paint"._

Isn't that a waterborne alkyd enamel? and not per se 'a latex'?


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

ccarlisle said:


> _"Sherwin Williams ProClassic enamel cabinet and door paint"._
> 
> Isn't that a waterborne alkyd enamel? and not per se 'a latex'?


http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...lic_latex/?WT.mc_id=Old DIY Products Redirect

ProClassic® Interior Acrylic Latex Enamel


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Did you use masking tape when you applied the caulk? That inside edge looks like what would happen when the edge of the tape pulls up on the sealant.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

jagans said:


> Did you use masking tape when you applied the caulk? That inside edge looks like what would happen when the edge of the tape pulls up on the sealant.


No tape, just my finger and a wet rag.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

shiftlft said:


> jsheridan, thanks for the reply! I used Sherwin Williams ProClassic enamel cabinet and door paint. Last night I already have begun doing what you just described and it's looking great so far. It would make sense if this was the reason for the curling rather than expansion to every door happening 2 hours after the 2nd coat.
> 
> I understand there are better caulks for painting over. Apparently at my local Lowes that day they must have been out of most of them as I spent over 20 minutes reading and examining all the caulks and DAP 3.0 seemed to be the best one that was paintable. I may have been wrong.
> 
> It is refreshing to receive actually reply that's helpful and offers a potential cause rather than replies telling me it's not possible to paint doors and to stop wasting time thinking about why it happened and just go fix it. Thanks! :thumbsup:



Not that he needs any help in this discussion, but I kinda gotta agree with JSheridan on this one...To me it looks as though something has wicked up beneath the caulking causing the wrinkling and blistering. 

You didn't say it was happening all over, is it possible the areas affected are where a too thin a film of caulk was left on the surface after smoothing with your finger and wet rag? ...and the wet rag you're using to smooth out the bead with, is it wet with water or with thinner? If with water, that _may_ be part of the problem - while, personally, I kinda like Dap Caulks (Alex & Alex Plus), I'm not sure I would've chosen this 3.0 for this application - even though it says it's paintable within 30 minutes. There are enough resin and solvent differences between the finish paint and caulk to make me a little uncomfortable with this system - especially in the time frame Dap says it's OK to paint over with acrylic.

As far as painted cabinets go, they are most certainly paintable. And a good paint job can look great on painted cabinets (even maple, birch, etc.)...I painted my cabinets with a water-borne system 13 years ago (stained and finished birch) and they still look great.


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## shiftlft (Mar 4, 2013)

ric knows paint said:


> Not that he needs any help in this discussion, but I kinda gotta agree with JSheridan on this one...To me it looks as though something has wicked up beneath the caulking causing the wrinkling and blistering.
> 
> You didn't say it was happening all over, is it possible the areas affected are where a too thin a film of caulk was left on the surface after smoothing with your finger and wet rag? ...and the wet rag you're using to smooth out the bead with, is it wet with water or with thinner? If with water, that _may_ be part of the problem - while, personally, I kinda like Dap Caulks (Alex & Alex Plus), I'm not sure I would've chosen this 3.0 for this application - even though it says it's paintable within 30 minutes. There are enough resin and solvent differences between the finish paint and caulk to make me a little uncomfortable with this system.
> 
> As far as painted cabinets go, they are most certainly paintable. And a good paint job can look great on painted cabinets (even maple, birch, etc.)...I painted my cabinets with a water-borne system 13 years ago (stained and finished birch) and they still look great.


Hi Ric. Too thin of the film could be possible as well. I tried to wipe and squeeze out any excess caulk from the gaps but doing 16 doors in a basement it's obvious there was some left on. Out of 16 doors, about 11 of them exhibit the problem to varying degrees. It certainly isn't happening along every inch of every door. Some doors have the tiniest bit in 1 spot, others have a few inches at various places along the edges, and some have more, perhaps 6 or 7 inches in length. Then the next inch the edge could look flawless. Some may say this isn't an issue one would notice at all but I'm a perfectionist. :whistling2:

The rag was wet with water and I went through 4 clean new rags and 4 fresh buckets of water. 

Here is a picture of the doors and drawers before I took a couple down to repair. They appear more yellow and blue than in person due to the lighting and the iPhone picture quality. We love how they look and it's not until you get about 3 feet away at eye level and look closely and purposefully that you can see the bad areas. We are very happy with our choice to paint the cabinets white so I hope no one took this thread as anything but me curious about why this happened and some options for repairing it. 

Thanks Ric.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

I think the pics look great, man...nice looking kitchen. I'm going to go back to one of my earlier statements about the rag & water - this may be a stretch, but maybe not...Dap 3.0 claims the resin to be an advanced polymer, borne in solvent (and evidently silicone-free) - their tech sheet states the surface must be dry prior to application and un-cured excesses be cleaned up with mineral spirits. Since water won't dissolve the caulk, it also won't remove the excess...but the introduction of water, at this stage, _could_ (a) disrupt the caulk's ability to cure properly, and/or (b) possibly wick beneath the caulk film, creating a barrier the caulk cannot adhere to. 

So, why did this only happen after the 2nd coat? Who knows. It may have happened within a few days after the first coat was applied anyway (as acrylics will shrink dramatically during their cure cycle), but the second coat was applied before it showed up...or it could be that just the weight and additional stress of twice the millage (2 coats vs. 1 coat) caused a thin caulk film, that perhaps had experienced an interruption to curing, to lift and blister. 

Disclaimer: None of this should be considered definitive, and all suggestions to the actual causes are base solely on SWAG theory. 

Good luck to you.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

SWAG, also an estimating concept. A seriously wild a$$ guess. As opposed to a WAG.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes, nice job shift, nice looking kitchen.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> SWAG, also an estimating concept. A seriously wild a$$ guess. As opposed to a WAG.


Please. _Scientific_ Wild Ass Guessing...


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

:thumbup: If it was goverment work it would be called plausible deniability..

Cabs look good from here though! I am also in the yes you can paint any wood cabs. There is just a difference in look. Oak will not look like birch etc.


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

Hey Shift,
just reading this thread and was curious. What kind of sprayer did the painter use, airless, hvlp, etc.?
Mike Hawkins


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