# kitchen wall drain outlet higher than trap arm



## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

My kitchen drain sink is leaking from the strainer. The fiber washer is warped and the rubber washer is not snug against the underside of the sink. I think that's because the strainer down to the tailpiece are askew (bottom end slightly slanted to the left)(photo 1). I think the original installer (we bought the condo several years ago freshly renovated by a developer) deliberately did that to align the tailpiece with the tee and P trap which could not be centered with the sink hole without compromising insertion of the trap arm to the adapter-wall drain outlet pipe. It also looks like the original installer compensated for the misaligned tubes by liberally using pipe joint compound on every connection.

photo 1









This (photo 2) is how the whole setup originally looked. The dishwasher drain hose is hooked up to the right sink tailpiece. The waste arm, from the right to the left sink, is not horizontally level. Is this acceptable? Every plumbing forum I've read mentions that the waste arm should be level.

photo2









I replaced the left sink strainer's rubber and fiber washers (and all the other washers) and aligned all the tubes. As expected, aligning everything (left sink) downwards from the strainer to the P trap resulted in the trap arm not lining up with the wall drain outlet (photo 3). Here's a close up of the trap arm end and the wall drain outlet (photo 4). I can't figure out what to do. There's no way to push things (slip nuts, tees, P trap) further up. The adapter-wall drain outlet pipe seems to be too high for our sink. It's a Blanco sink that's deeper than many home kitchen sinks I've seen.

photo 3









photo 4









Help please! Any suggestions? I was wondering if there's a tube (metal because all our plumbing is brass?) with a bend that can be attached to the wall drain outlet pipe adapter. That would have to be a double bend wouldn't it - 1 downward bend + 1 horizontal bend - for the tube to meet with the trap arm. 

I have an additional question. Are there reasons for choosing which washers to go with for the slip nuts - rubber or polyethylene? The reason I'm asking is my local hardware only has poly washers (tailpiece and cone). When I removed the slip nuts, they all had rubber washers with beveled (lies against the inside of the nut) and flat sides (outward, side that meets the pipe). Should I be replacing them with rubber washers or can I replace them with poly cone washers?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

A couple of quick thoughts-
Look for basket strainers with a shorter profile. You might gain a little that way. Also consider eliminating the cont. waste and using 2 traps instead. You will have to add a wye at the wall to receive the new traps.


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh boy why is there a electrical outlet there by the trap?!? Lol 
And why is the sink so far down to the p-trap as well?...

H|P Capital


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

Mark Potter said:


> Oh boy why is there a electrical outlet there by the trap?!? Lol
> And why is the sink so far down to the p-trap as well?...
> 
> H|P Capital


The drain outlet needs to be below your shut offs
put a GFI in replace of the none GFI outlet.

H|P Capital


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

@Eplumber:
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely look for one. I was initially thinking of trying to find a shorter tee (even a PVC or ABS) since there seems to be a bit more of space I can save on that but finding a shorter profile strainer seems to be easier.



@MarkPotter:
Wow, the things I discover when I let others look in. Thanks. I never even knew that. I assumed things were ok (wrong) because I assumed (wrong again, plumbing had to be one of the things inspected and approved before a condo unit can be sold. 

The electrical outlet is there because the developer had a water heater installed (on the left of the elec outlet) for the mini-faucet on the sink. We don't even use that filtered hot water faucet anymore because the water coming out has a funny (not stinky, more sweet vanilla-like) smell even after we changed the hot water filter (on the right of the right sink).

Changing to a GFI outlet would be easy. Changing the positions of the drain outlet and the shut off valves is not so easy. So having the drain outlet higher than the shutoff valves is not up to code? I guess I'll have to get a plumber in after all to lower the drain outlet (that seems less work than raising the shutoff valves/water supply pipes). I'll do a temporary fix (to the immediate strainer leak problem) by installing a shorter profile strainer then think/go about the drain outlet-higher-than-the shutoff valves issue slowly/longer because that requires getting board approval and a "professional" to mess with things behind the wall. Condo unit owners/residents are not allowed to do anything beyond the wall.


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

Druidia said:


> @Eplumber:
> Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely look for one. I was initially thinking of trying to find a shorter tee (even a PVC or ABS) since there seems to be a bit more of space I can save on that but finding a shorter profile strainer seems to be easier.
> 
> @MarkPotter:
> ...


Yeah I don't know what is code for were u live but drain outlet should be lower regardless and the GFI should have been put in that is code regardless.

The drain is what it is but change the electrical outlet.

H|P Capital


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

*Mickey Rig*

Screw a 1 1/2 " tee on the pipe coming out of the wall. 
On the left side screw on a 90 degree turn then a short 1 1/2 " nipple on to the 90.
On the right side of the tee install a 45 degree turn, then a short nipple.

Run each side of the sink to the new connections with their own individual p-traps.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Screw a 1 1/2 " tee on the pipe coming out of the wall.
> On the left side screw on a 90 degree turn then a short 1 1/2 " nipple on to the 90.
> On the right side of the tee install a 45 degree turn, then a short nipple.
> 
> Run each side of the sink to the new connections with their own individual p-traps.


Use a wye instead of a tee


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

rjniles said:


> Use a wye instead of a tee


Good idea, that would be MO better.


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Screw a 1 1/2 " tee on the pipe coming out of the wall.
> On the left side screw on a 90 degree turn then a short 1 1/2 " nipple on to the 90.
> On the right side of the tee install a 45 degree turn, then a short nipple.
> 
> Run each side of the sink to the new connections with their own individual p-traps.


Isn't the 90 going to drop it down from the wall if he does that? It needs to be plum all the way to the main drain from once the P-trap comes back up and goes to the wall?

H|P Capital


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

Mark Potter said:


> Isn't the 90 going to drop it down from the wall if he does that? It needs to be plum all the way to the main drain from once the P-trap comes back up and goes to the wall?
> 
> H|P Capital


The 90 would be installed in a horizonal position with a nipple sticking out , so the trap arm could be attached.


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm a she.

The 2-P trap setup you guys are suggesting would look something like the photo at the bottom here - http://www.polaris.net/palmk/GDplumbing.html (minus the garbage disposal and the bendy drain on the right)?


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

Druidia said:


> I'm a she.
> 
> The 2-P trap setup you guys are suggesting would look something like the photo at the bottom here - http://www.polaris.net/palmk/GDplumbing.html (minus the garbage disposal and the bendy drain on the right)?



I apologize for that wasn't paying attention to your name. 
Isn't that what you have now?
And what there suggesting which is right but it's just making the p-trap on the other side?....

H|P Capital


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

Druidia said:


> I'm a she.
> 
> The 2-P trap setup you guys are suggesting would look something like the photo at the bottom here - http://www.polaris.net/palmk/GDplumbing.html (minus the garbage disposal and the bendy drain on the right)?


No.
It would look more like this.


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> No.
> It would look more like this.


Thank you! Now that makes total sense to separate the 2 sinks like that sorry Sunday's are slow days for me lol

H|P Capital


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> No.
> It would look more like this.


Thats actually a really nice set up I take it u did that AlbacoreShuffle?

H|P Capital


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> No.
> It would look more like this.


Oh, I thought it would be a simple wye like the one (photo) posted by rjniles. 

What is the capped center arm for in your photo? 
I'm searching now if I can find that 4-armed wye fitting in metal. Home Depot (online) doesn't seem to have it (PVC only). I'll have to call/check the Do-it-best hardware stores here.


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

And thanks for the photo AlbacoreShuffle. Everything is so much clearer with photos. I'll take it with me when I go looking for parts.

Darn, I'll have to get two tailpieces since the current ones are too short to go completely down a P trap. There are only 0.5" and 0.75" of the tailpieces to go into the P trap. I wish I have PVC plumbing. They're so much easier to cut but the chromes do look nice and shiny .


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If you want PVC you can do that---cut open the back of the cabinet---cut out the old T--and convert to PVC using a frenco type fitting.

It's not bad if you have a steady hand with a Sawsall---


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm going to use PVC on everything, from the tailpieces to the trap arms and double wye. 

How will the double wye attach to the threaded metal adapter-wall drain (photo 4 in original post)? The double wye (2 x 1-1/2) has no threads, based on photos I've seen. Is it attached simply with glue/cement or is some form of clamp etc. needed?

The three arms on the other side are also not threaded. So how does one attach the trap arms? What kind of adapter is used to attach the trap arm to the double wye with a slip nut?

I saw a threaded double wye sold by a specialty store but haven't seen it in general hardware stores.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Threaded adapters are available---however---you are adding length with every fitting--

If it were my job I'd open the wall--remove the steel T --and lower the opening using PVC and rubber Frenco boots.

You may spend hours driving around trying to Rube Goldburg that ---the time would be better spent opening the wall and getting the opening where it belongs.----My 2 cents---Mike---


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

oh'mike said:


> Threaded adapters are available---however---you are adding length with every fitting--
> 
> If it were my job I'd open the wall--remove the steel T --and lower the opening using PVC and rubber Frenco boots.
> 
> You may spend hours driving around trying to Rube Goldburg that ---the time would be better spent opening the wall and getting the opening where it belongs.----My 2 cents---Mike---


Yeah there is like no room from the basket now to the P-trap the drain from behind the wall would have to be moved down.

H|P Capital


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

Modifying things behind walls is not that easy when you live in a condo compared to when you live in a house. Jobs like that require that a plumber come in to inspect and describe what he's going to do after he tears down the wall, then I write a "plan" of what he's going to do, submit the plan to the condo management (along with other required papers), management forwards that to the condo association board, condo assoc board meets to approve plan. It would take longer for me to wait for that entire process to end than to spend hours figuring out what to do and hopping through a few hardware stores to gather my materials. The immediate reward of not having to wash dishes in a tiny bathroom sink and being able to use my dishwasher again is worth the hours spent on figuring out and hopping around.

Ta dahhhh.... my new sink drain plumbing:










So far nothing is leaking. I did have to re-tighten a few nuts during my "leak test period". My hands are not super strong so, even with a grip liner, they're feeling a bit stiff from all the exercise. I had to put the branch tailpiece (for my dishwasher hose) horizontally because it wouldn't fit vertically. I borrowed that idea from a few other threads/forums and a dishwasher installation manual I read. I also had to make a 90 degree turn from the right kitchen sink since the wye outlet was at a 90 degree angle to the wall. My plumbing doesn't look too bad, if I may say so myself, considering that the only plumbing-under-the-sink I've done before was remove a P trap twice to retrieve an earring.

I realize this is a temporary fix because, based on other threads/forums, I can't have more than one slip nut between the P trap and the wall drain stub. I'll have to wait to make my permanent fix until I can get a plumber in to assess and for me to submit and get a plan approved by the condo assoc board.

I like the purple bead on my plumbing!

BTW, what happens when the kitchen plumbing is not up to code (e.g., drain outlet higher than valves; more than 1 slip nut between trap arm and wall drain stub)? Is that a finable offense like parking in a no-parking street or expired parking meter? Is that a more serious offense? Which code does Illinois follow?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

No fine--they just make you fix it right and pay for a second inspection---

You don't like opening up the wall?


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## Mark Potter (Aug 19, 2011)

oh'mike said:


> No fine--they just make you fix it right and pay for a second inspection---
> 
> You don't like opening up the wall?


I wouldnt worry about that until you move out of there.


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