# Cape Cod Upstairs is cold



## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

I thought that Cape Cod houses didn't have any roof overhang at all.

Are your knee walls insulated? Other than that, from what you explain, there isn't much more you can do that would be cost efficient, compared with buying an electric oil radiator and using it upstairs to supplement the furnace.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Both the furnace and the AC units are beyond their efficient life span. It will be cost effective to have them replaced with more efficient units. Get an energy audit done. Without this step everything else is nothing but a guess


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Capes from the 1950s used 2x6 roof rafters--2x8 if you are lucky---That's just not enough space for proper insulation and ventilation---so they are always cold---and have ice dams at the gutters.

Bad design for heating and cooling---


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

There is a 4" overhang, I live in a development in which all of the houses are cape cods and basically identical except for some people who remodeled. 

I already have electric heaters in the bedrooms, I was trying to not have to use them, to me it doesn't make sense to have to use auxiliary heat when I have a working furnace. 

I don't see how the age of my furnace and a/c unit has anything to with how they make my house hot or cold. They both make very cold air in summer and hot in the winter. They are serviced once a year and they run like a top. They might cost me slightly more than newer units but my energy bill never goes above $250 a month on the coldest months and I have the heat set to 71deg. I cannot justify the cost to replace something that doesn't need replacing. If I purchased a 90% efficient furnace would only yield a 9% increase and that's an advertised efficiency. I've had quotes to replace both and they want to replace the cold air intake box and many other components and it was around $8000. If it saved me $33 a month it would take me 20 years before the savings paid off the new equipment.

The service I had done last month yielded these results:
CO2 = 8%
Stack Temp = 400Deg F
Efficiency = 81%

Which to me isn't bad for a 31 year old furnace (Carrier Super Efficient)

I could be wrong with the way i see my HVAC equipment but that's how I figured it last year when I thought about replacing the units.

The house has 2x6 roof rafters. It also has "black" paper drywall on the exterior instead of traditional ship-lap or sheathing. I figure I have one of those cheaply built post war houses. I do not have any gutters on the house except for the 3 season porch in the back.

Its interesting how that these houses we're designed and built in the coldest regions of the United States. 

I will insulate the walls of the knee walls that I can get to and do you think its worth trying to install more insulation on the floor of the attic. 

I'm willing to entertain other ideas that you might have and I do appreciate the suggestions that I have gotten so far.


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## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

Insulating the attic floor will make your downstairs warmer and the attic colder (less heat from downstairs will transfer to the attic).


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

Can you determine that the second floor return air is not obstructed and functioning? As an experiment you might partially block off the main floor return air which should increase the draw from the second floor. The furnace will draw return air from the path of least resistance.


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

It turns out that the cold air return for the upstairs is not a cold air return. Its just a hole in the wall that allows access to the plumbing though the wall. I stuffed it with insulation because I could feel the cold air leaking though the vent cover.


So now I only have 3 heat vents upstairs only the only cold air return is downstairs. There is a return in the LR and the 2 downstairs bedrooms. There is a total of 5 heat vents downstairs and 3 upstairs. I'm not sure if that is adding to the problem or not. The large uninsulated hole in the wall covered by a return vent cover sure did not help anything.

Yes, I know its bad having all of the bathroom plumbing on an exterior shed dormer wall but I didn't build the dormer. In its current shape I would have to re-do everything to change that and there has never been any problems with the pipes freezing in the past so I'm just going to leave well enough alone.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

I find it odd that there's no return upstairs. My cape has 2 - one in each of the 2 bedrooms up there. I was under the impression you don't want a return in the kitchen or bathroom.

The coldest part of my cape is the sloped part of the ceiling or wall - whatever you want to call it. Basically from the top of the kneewall to the regular ceiling. I replaced the insulation in a couple of stud bays because it was old and fell apart, but by the time you add the baffle you can only get so much insulation in there (2x6 rafters). You can see it on the roof too when it snows, the top of the roof and the bottom are still covered in snow, but it melts right in the middle before anything else.

Besides that it stays pretty warm, I'm actually shocked at how warm an 82 yr old house stays w/ 82 yr old windows!!!


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

The return air component of your system relies on cooler air spilling down the stairs to eventually be collected through your first floor return. This arrangement will result in stratification of the heating and cooling between floor levels. Your second floor supplies are attempting to overcome the resistance to supply air which limits the CFM that can be delivered to the second floor.

You need a second floor return air preferably high and low wall locations with an operable damper. Open the high one during AC periods and close the low one, reverse this during heating periods . The space between first floor studs can function as a plenum ( not required to be lined) or box one in at another location. Doesn't really matter as long as its tied back into the return in the basement.

Lots of assumptions here but I think the principal is correct.

As a further thought - do you know if you have balancing dampers in the supply ducts in the basement? 
Also, that bathroom vent cover may have served to allow heat to reach the wall located plumbing and prevent freezing!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Buy a cheap infrared thermometer and check the flow temp at all registers. Buy a punk or incense burn stick and check all areas with and without the heat on to pressurize/non the rooms, get back to us with your findings: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...h-LkBa&sig=AHIEtbSXCLCRylefB0QFJloH77s9kuyfvw

http://www.bpi.org/Web%20Download/Installer%20Certifications/RBEWHALC_Crew_Chief_Certif_Handbk_V1_DRAFT.pdf

Possible major leaks: Air-seal under the drywall at knee walls (now required per IRC), block cavity directly under knee-wall- f.g. will not stop air flow, weatherstrip attic access doors (required), add a wind-blocker (housewrap) if f.g. on knee-walls, add foam covers on electrical outlets, leave doors open to verify cold-air return works (3/4-1" gap underneath) in bedrooms, install inside plastic storm window film if needed (from test results), and air-seal light fixture, switches, etc. Air-seal the crawlspace, all wire/plumbing holes in floor above to battle the "stack effect": http://www.wag-aic.org/1999/WAG_99_baker.pdf

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/forget-vapor-diffusion-stop-air-leaks

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/yohoyohe/inaiqu/inaiqu_003.cfm

Gary


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

I placed the insulation behind the pipes against the wall, leaving the pipes still open to the vent, sorry I didn't explain that better. There is virtually no cold air leakage. Before you could put your hand close to the vent and feel the cold air coming in.

Thanks for the links they are very helpful, I will pick up the supplies tomorrow afternoon and I will let you know what the result it.

There are no dampers in any of the duct work in the basement, the only adjustment I have is on the actual vents themselves. 

I'm not sure if this matters but my LR and kitchen are front to back (LR in front of house) and the partition wall has the heat vents and in both rooms their about 2' from the ceiling which I think is odd because all of my other vents are on the floor like normal.

Again, thanks for all the help so far :thumbsup:


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

The high level supplies and low level returns was not uncommon during that era. Am I correct that you presently have supplies located on the "middle" partition ie blowing towards the exterior walls but this applies to only the LR and Kitchen?


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

yes, that is correct the kitchen and LR are the only downstairs that the heat/cold air blows down toward the outside walls.

I checked the flow temp on all of the downstairs registers and there between 93 - 96 degF and the 3 upstairs registers are 92 - 94 degF. I sealed all of the outlets and switches on exterior walls, and I didn't notice much if an difference. I made sure the attic access panel had insulation on top of it. 

Should I wrap my chimney that goes though the attic to stop the heat loss into the crawl space or is that pointless?


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## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

Whatever you do about insulation, the upstairs is always going to lose heat faster than the downstairs.

If your thermostat is downstairs and you can get another hot air duct to the upstairs, when the thermostat stops the furnace, the furnace will have delivered extra heat to the upstairs, lowering the temperature difference.


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

According to an associate who is in the HVAC field your flow temps are correct. He concurs that you need a second floor return in order to reduce the floor to floor temperature differential. Just won't happen without it as once the first floor located thermostat is satisfied the furnace will shut off leaving the second floor subject to greater heat loss with no supply air until the first floor cools down enough to trip the thermostat.
The insulation program is appropriate but I see no point in wrapping your chimney .


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## Engineer3D (Aug 30, 2011)

This may or maynot help, but to give you an idea of whats behind your walls, and compare furnace ducts and locations, look at the pictures of my home.
In the process of gutting it and repairing all sorts of damage.
My Cape Cod was built in 1923 towards end of the year according to the neighbors parents when they purchased two homes down the road back then.
This one had two fires at least 20 to 30 years apart.
Lucky Me...

http://s1237.photobucket.com/profile/Engineer3D

The Kitchen and Bedroom2 as I list them have the better pictures of the wall removals.
And "Yes" If you can wrap the chimney. Right now average temp in upstairs is about 70 with no Cold Air return as of yet.
The cavity with the pipes will be open to airflow/heatloss (if any) from the opening in the basement ceiling.
Good Luck.


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

Engineer3D, That's alot of work your putting into your house and it lookes great. Our house burned aswell but I only found out when I looked into the attic there are still some charred roof rafters up there. it lookes like the shed dormer was put on to replace the burnt roof. None of the surrounding neighbors have lived in the area to remember the house before the dormer was put on. 

I will entertain the idea of adding cold air returns to the upstairs. I have good access to the returns in the basement I could just open up a slot down to the basement to provide a return for each of the upstairs bedrooms. It would have to be in the front of the house which is fine. The only problem is for the bedroom that is above the living room I have a very large and wide window that takes up almost the entire wall. 

Can I just remove the blown in insulation from a cavity and I will obviously cut out the drywall in the cavity and install some galvenized sheet metal then connect it to the exisiting return lines in the basement. Or is it more complicated than that?

Thanks for the help so far.


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

The returns should be located within interior partitions, not an exterior wall stud space if that is what you are considering doing.


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## Engineer3D (Aug 30, 2011)

Yes, Marvel is correct on that.
The easiest way I am going to do it is to run the return along the joists going from the basement area below the kitchen.
Up the interior wall alongside the stairway to a vent opening I will build in the upstairs hallway.
I hope that makes sense, dependent on your Cape Cod Design.

It's easier because everything runs parallel along the basement joists (cut/brace opening to the kitchen wall studs) then parallel along landing to the upstairs joist {Thats the area you first step on after going upstairs}.
Then for a foot or so cut another opening in wall cavity to become a vent/opening.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

And not on a garage wall, #4: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-built-wrong-from-start

Gary


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## anc6802 (Jan 16, 2012)

The only reasons why I was going to use an exterior wall was becasue all of the returns in the house are on exterior walls. My parents house only has 1 cold air return thats spans 3 floor joists wide and that house is plenty warm in the winter, but it is on a interior wall.

Engineer, I follow you with what you are saying, The cold air return would be in the hallway at the top of the stairs, if I understand you correctly. The problem I would have with that is that the furnace is basically under the basement stairs and putting a cold air return would be very difficult. It appears that the only interior walls that match the downstairs walls are in each bedroom. With some creative ductwork I should be able to have a cold air return in each bedroom. 

If it could help things I could take some photos of my ductwork and layout of the house.


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## Engineer3D (Aug 30, 2011)

Yes, it would be helpful.
Since your furnace is not located in the same location as mine, hence the route I am taking, duct work magic may be needed.

Also, you see I am switching to round ductwork, as in my situation with gutting, I can run supply and returns easier as I keep changing my mind room to room.
But still supply heat where needed until I have all the drywall and insulation removed.


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