# Removing tile while NOT damaging the shower waterproofing



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Every shower I have ever taken down has had drywall back there (funny how that works)
If you have drywall, you will not be taking tile off of it. I would ask about tiling over the floor tile.


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## gary.bruzzese (Sep 28, 2016)

How old is this? It's probably a PVC liner with a mud floor above. If it's much older, it could be a lead pan with mud on top. In which case, the tile will come off the floor without damaging the pan. But the mud floor will need to be carefully removed. Chances are the pan, whether it be vinyl or lead, will not have a pre-slope. There will also likely be rot, especially at the curb.

I would recommend you re-do the whole floor and waterproofing. Be sure to use a pre-slope under your waterproofing. 

As for the walls, I'd bet their is no waterproofing behind those tiles. Plan on removing all wall board and replacing with new, whether it be CBU with waterproofing or a kerdi type board. 

Makes no sense to spend money on new tile and not do the right job behind the tile. 


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

gary.bruzzese said:


> How old is this? It's probably a PVC liner with a mud floor above.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I think the shower was done in the 90s. Judging by the style of the bathroom.




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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

When it was built only tells you how old it is. Knowing HOW it was built is the key. "Bosch hammer drill" and "gently" don't belong in the same sentence. You may have better luck with an SDS tool set to hammer only, but it won't be gentle either.

I'm of the school that if you are going to do the job once, do it right. Take the walls down and do your best on the floor. If it boogers up, take it out and start over.


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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

I bet money it's a mud pan with PVC liner. For the wall just remove the drywall the tile is most likely attached to.




http://floorelf.com/how-to-remove-tiled-shower-walls


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

Lots of great advice here. Thanks. 

To my untrained eye, it seems the shower was added as an after thoughts. Meaning the bathroom 1/2 bath was already here and the owner added a shower. 

Why would he create such an odd shaped shower pan? The other side of the shower juts out into my living room. The mirror pictured in my living room is covering up that frosted glass in the shower.






















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## ct18 (Sep 20, 2012)

Is that drywall in the shower.


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## toxdoc2001 (Sep 18, 2017)

Having dealt with this issue in the past, I agree with everyone it's a mud pan and liner. If you are lucky, you might be able to pop the floor tiles off without trashing the pan. If you can, I would remove all the walls and durarock them, redgaurd them well and the pan, follow the directions as the pan needs extra coats. 

Of course, most likely the mud pan won't survive, and you will need to do the whole thing.


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

All the tile on the sheetrocked walls came off like butter through a hot knife. Cement board was found behind that. Not sure what the builder was thinking. I have a separate thread on that.

Anyway - the tile on the floors barely budged with the hammer drill and chisel bit. I could keep working the hammer drill. I was considering hitting the floor with a sledge hammer a few times to shake the mortar free.

Are there any better options? 











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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

I just kept slamming it with the Bosch bulldog in hammer mode. It finally came off. 


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## a912 (Oct 25, 2017)

jaketrades said:


> All the tile on the sheetrocked walls came off like butter through a hot knife. Cement board was found behind that. Not sure what the builder was thinking. I have a separate thread on that.
> 
> Anyway - the tile on the floors barely budged with the hammer drill and chisel bit. I could keep working the hammer drill. I was considering hitting the floor with a sledge hammer a few times to shake the mortar free.
> 
> ...


That's going to be an odd shape for the PVC liner. You may want to fur the walls out 1/4" above where the liner attaches or notch the studs before attaching the liner. If you don't the bottom of the shower will not be square when you screw on your durock and probably noticeably angled.


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

I managed to get the floor tile
Cleared off with Bosch hammer and chisel.

How reusable is this shower? I have zero experience with mud jobs.

I was thinking of taping the edges and red guarding the floor. I would fix the damaged areas and thinset the couple areas that don’t slope to the center.

I’m going to look for a primer on mud-jobs to get better understanding of what I’m dealing with.





























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## gary.bruzzese (Sep 28, 2016)

You’ve come this far, don’t cheat now. Carefully pull up the mud pan. Then you can check if there is a pre-slope under the vinyl pan. If there is, flood test the pan for 24 hours so you know if it’s still good. Also, this way will allow you to guarantee the weep holes are clear (assuming you place pea gravel or spacers around them before pouring your final mud floor). 


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

gary.bruzzese; said:


> You’ve come this far, don’t cheat now. Carefully pull up the mud pan. Then you can check if there is a pre-slope under the vinyl pan. If there is, flood test the pan for 24 hours so you know if it’s still good. Also, this way will allow you to guarantee the weep holes are clear (assuming you place pea gravel or spacers around them before pouring your final mud floor).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Gary, how do you carefully break that top layer of mortar? Hammer? Pull up the chunks?

I looked up some diagrams of what a mud floor with liner should look like. Is this the setup I most likely have? 

What is that metal flashing around the perimeter of the shower? Does that just act as a nailer?


And how on earth did that shower not leak? The entire perimeter has a gap around it.

The person below me (condo building) told me at one point when the prior owner used the shower it would leak. He got it repaired and it’s been fine since. I used that shower for almost 5 years and got no complaints about leaks.





















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## gary.bruzzese (Sep 28, 2016)

Ok so looks like this...

That mud floor should come up easy with a hammer and chisel. Don’t pound the chisel all the way through, just use it to break the mud into pieces you can pull out by hand

The drawing you showed is correct, except it’s missing pea gravel to protect the weep holes around the drain. 

The metal flashing around the perimeter, if I’m looking at this right, is the pan liner. You seem to have a lead shower pan. The shower pans are kicked up the wall about 12”. 

If I understand you correct about the “gap”. I’m assuming a gap between the mud and the pan liner going up the wall. In which case, that’s probably where a screed board was put in around the perimeter to serve as a gauge for the height of the mud. It’s not a gap that will leak, as the water that gets in there goes right into the lead pan. 



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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

Gary - thanks for the detailed explanation.

I did some reading on lead pan showers and how it’s an older technology which has been replaced with PVC liners. I read that lead pans deteriorate in 25 years or so. While PVC will last a indefinitely. I suspect that lead pan is from around 1994 because some of the cement board was dated 1994. If that assumption is correct it’s roughly 23 years old.

Since the lead pan is older does it make sense to replace it with PVC?

Will the lead pan fall apart as I pull it up?

To be honest I am a little nervous about building a mud shower on a shower that “seems” to be working. My only experience with showers is I’ve installed a schluter Kerdi shower. But I’m willing to take the next step and learn how to do a mud job.






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