# Crooked window sill in old wood house



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You don't want to straighten out the window frame. 
You don't want to shim the bottom. 
You do want to put the sashes back to square.
Sorry , you can't get there from here unless the bottom frame has just fell out of one side of the side jamb. If that's the case, shim under it to get it back where it belongs.
If this is not the case, the whole frame is rhombus shaped and needs to be put back to square.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thank you for your reply Ron. I know that an old house is hardly ever "square", and since the out of square is mostly on the sill, when I repair the sashes (making them square), when the lower sash is closed, it will not be able to close square. I guess my first plan of attack will be to remove the inside molding,and see if the bottom part of the window frame (sill) has come loose from the sides. If the sill was just a small bit out, I wouldn;t worry about it. However, it is out so much, that to close the window will just not work right.

Can you be a little more specific as to what I should do in this case? I believe that if the sill has come loose from one of the side jambs, its a no-brainer. Shim to square. But, after that, what next?

Thank you for any advice you can give in this.

Bofus (Jim)


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You don't have to remove anything if the sill isn't attached, you just look at the opening on the bottom. No opening, no sill adjustment.
If you can post pictures of both the interior and exterior of the window in question, I can give you a repair scenario. 
The exterior shot should be close enough to see the siding and the window. Interior, the whole window, molding and all.
Any reason you're not upgrading them? The amount of heat you're losing is substantial. 
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thank you Ron, I'll try to get some photos this weekend. As far as upgrading the window, on a historic structure, the original windows should never be replaced. The originals should be repaired and restored into operating condition. If it was just any old house, then it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. As far as keeping the original windows, I'll take the energy loss as the price for being the owner of a house like this.

Below the window sill (from the outside) there is a 3/4 round molding directly below the sill. I am assuming that this is to cover any nails that may have been used to fasten the sill and/or to cover any gap to the structure, but since I am ignorant to how there were actually built, I really don't know. I DO know that the foundation had settled quite a bit on this end of the house, and I believe that it was raised up about 3-4" by the foundation crew. I am sure that this may have a lot to do with the problems these windows have now.

Jim


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

glad to see your repairing the old windows more pics would help:thumbsup:


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

If the top of the frame is level and the sides plumb but the sill is not level then the sill has come loose. Removing the trim and shimming the sill may be enough. However if the top is out of level also you generally have to remove the trim cut the nails holding the frame in on one side. If you have space above the frame cut the nails on the low side and shim that side up, if there is space below the fram cut the nails on the high side and pry that side down.


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

If the top of the frame is level and the sides plumb but the sill is not level then the sill has come loose. Removing the trim and shimming the sill may be enough. However if the top is out of level also you generally have to remove the trim cut the nails holding the frame in on one side. If you have space above the frame cut the nails on the low side and shim that side up, if there is space below the frame cut the nails on the high side and pry that side down. As stated above you can't put a square peg in a round hole.


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks a bunch for your advice. The top of the window frame is not level, but it is not out enough to easily see. It is possible that because the house had settled so much over the years, that this is now the by-product of the leveling process. The clap-boards are not level right below the sill, but again, it is not out by that much. It seems that the sill is "exagerated" in its kilter. I just hated how the previous owner cut the bottom of the lower sashes at an angle, so that the windows would close more flush against the sill. AND, they did a really bad job of doing that. I'll take some photos of the windows this weekend, and hopefully you'll see what I am talking about. My problem is that I am a perfectionist, and as long as I know it is out, then nothing else matters.:laughing: I am hoping that it is just that the sill came loose from the jambs, but I have a feeling that there is a lot more to it than that.

Jim


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

OK guys, I believe I have opened up a can of worms. OK, this is what I have done. I removed the center window molding (between the 2 windows) outside to get a better look at what I am up against. THere is a 2" X 4" going from top to bottom, between the 2 windows. Where this 2" X 4" goes just below the sill, this 2 X 4 is all eaten up by termites (old damage). I took some photos of the bottom of the sill, showing the difference from one side to the other. I also took photos showing the bad 2 X 4 running between the windows. I also took a few photos showing the level on the inside top of the window frame, as well a the level on the window sill (way out)l. Inside the window frame (well, below) there are a couple of boards (solid) that are running parallel with the window sill. I believe that because the one board that is all eaten up by the termites, the inside boards have nothing to fasten to, so the entile window frame has shifted downwards on the left side. I am afraid that I am going to have to replace the eaten up 2" X 4", and then somehow raise the inside parallel boards, so that the sill is pushed upwards. Then nail the parallel boards to the new 2X4 to keep it from shifting again. If this is needed, I am hoping that I can do this from inside the house. I would hate to have to remove the clap-boards. I am assuming that it is the same case for the window on the left as well. However, I am hoping I can do this to one window at a time. The actual window frame is in pretty solid condidtion, except for one of the blind stops being rotten at the bottom. I am hoping that if I can remove just the left and top molding, I will be able to shim the window fram back into square, or at least much better than it is now.

Any ideas? Any advice on this? Any input you can give me will be GREATLY appreciated. Is my way of thinking correct, or is there a much better and easier way of doing this?

Below are some photo. I hope this helps.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

jJim, I think we passed your , "easy" a while back. Now we're into ,"more involved". Not too bad, but more involved.
This will work without taking out the window.
I would remove all the plaster from below this section so you can work from the bottom up. Get some 2x6's and rip them to the correct size to match the current framing. Cut out the rotted 2x4's as square as possible and add a new piece to the rotted 2x4. You can use a mending plate to keep it in place. Then add a second 2x4 and sister the two together using 3" deck screws. The sistered 2x4 needs to be as high as possible so you can screw it together along a good distance. If you can fit it all the way to the top plate, do that. If you can throw a few nails in through the exterior siding into the new framing so much the better. 
Rebuild the double 2x4's as needed below the window. You can screw up from the bottom to secure it.
Square the window in the opening, shimming the low corner. Add shims midway and at the other end if there's space under the window sill. Add shims between the side jamb and the rough framing and drive finish nails through the jamb sides and the shims. If the window is taller then 36" add two sets of shims at the 1/3 and 2/3 area.
That should be it. Insulate sheetrock and add the interior trim 
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

do these windows have sash wieghts? removeing lap siding is not to difficult


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Ron, there's a problem. I had already figured to get a P.T 2" X 6", and rip it to the correct size, but this area is where the sash weights go. If I sistered another 2X4 in its place, then the sash weights would not fit. I dug a bit deeper, and it seems that one side of the 2X4 is still solid. I don't know if this makes a difference or not. I thought that the window sill was supposed to rest on the parallel boards below the sill, but I checked another window I had done before(the center molding was still off on the inside), and I see these same boards below the sill, but they are not resting on them. Confusing for me.... Well, anyway, what exactly does the window sill rest on? Is there a support board that it rests on, that I can't see with the outside trim removed? Or, does the sill just float there, fastened to the lower edge of the window? If it is supposed to float, fastened to the window frame, then how about this. If I remove the inside and outside molding from the top, as well as the lower side, will the window frame be free enough to pry it upwards, long enough to tack a few boards from the top, to keep the opening square, then install the left molding to keep it square? After that is done, then the top molding can then be added back to hold the rest in place? Forgive my ignorance, but I guess what I really need to know is what the sill is supposed to rest on, if anything at all? 

Tom, yes, there are weights for the windows. I know that there's is no big deal with removing the clap-boards, but here again, I keep thinking of that dern can of worms.:laughing: I am going to have to redo some of the plaster anyway, so removing the plaster for me is no big deal, it has to be done reguardless.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

on those old type windows ive seen the sill is blocked up in the center and the side jambs are rabbeted on the bottom and are nailed to the sub sill


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Tom

Do you mean that the sill is actually fastened to the window frame? OK, now you've gone and done it, you mentioned a word I'm not familiar with...."sub sill"? Can you explain?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

bofusmosby said:


> Tom
> 
> Do you mean that the sill is actually fastened to the window frame? OK, now you've gone and done it, you mentioned a word I'm not familiar with...."sub sill"? Can you explain?


 The two horizontal 2x4's under the window that make up the bottom of the rough opening.
As you have sash weights and no room to add framing, you will need to remove the rotted wood and replace it . Just run a sawzall between the window jamb and the framing member to cut any nails. Go all the way from the bottom plate to the top plate to get the header nails.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Ron

The 2 X 4 is not connected to the window jamb at all. It runs between the 2 windows, and is seperated by the weight pockets. From what I can see from the outside, this 2 X 4 has the lower clap-boards nailed to it, as well as the framing about the window. Since part of this board is still solid on one side, is it a necessity to replace the board? The boards on the bottom as well as the top do not appear to be nailed to the one board (termite eaten). It fits between them, and on the top, it is still in good shape, and there doesn't appear to be any nails going from one to the other. Are there supposed to be pieces of wood going from the lower window framing up to the underside of the sill?

Jim


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Jim, go to this site. It has the framing detail of a typical window.
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/window/new/ro_framing.htm

Relate your set up using the terminology in the picture.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Ron

Thank you for the link. I am home for lunch, but tonight I will read all that you have provided, including the other links having to do with the window opening and the removal and installation of windows. It looks to be a gold mine of info. I'll save any more questions until after I read it all.

Jim


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

the ''sub sill'' as we call it around here is the wide1x board on the bottom of the window that laps over the outside sill

and ive seen those old windows with just blocking holding up the center of the window sometimes they are nailed to the unit sometimes not

youwill see when you pull the apron where its blocked


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Hmmm, I see that the sill is fastened to the window frame itself, being supported by the jack-studs. Soo, below the horiz. boards running parallel with the sill are the jack studs. Can these be wedged upwards, lifting the sill as well? I would think that I would have to use a hammer, because these will of course be nailed to the sill. Correct?

Jim


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

bofusmosby said:


> Hmmm, I see that the sill is fastened to the window frame itself, being supported by the jack-studs. Soo, below the horiz. boards running parallel with the sill are the jack studs. Can these be wedged upwards, lifting the sill as well? I would think that I would have to use a hammer, because these will of course be nailed to the sill. Correct?
> 
> Jim


 The jack studs are vertical framing members that are holding up the rough opening sill the window is resting on. If the sill is solid, you can use shims under the low side of the window to raise it to the level position. You can use a flat bar, prybar, etc to raise the window to get the clearance to put the shims in.
If the sill is not solid, you must replace the bad sections before attempting the above procedure or the window will just sink back over time.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks Ron. The window frame is resting on the window sill, so I guess that by raising the lower edge of the sill, it will also have to raise the window frame as well, as long as I remove the inside and outside molding trim from the top, as well as the side needing to be raised. Even though the sill has some old termite damage, it still seems to be really solid. I guess I'll find out when I try to raise it.

Jim


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

What seems odd is that the wood sill the window is resting on has not deteriorated to the point you need to replace it, but the window itself has substantially dropped in one corner. The side jamb of the window seems to be about 1 1/4" thick and even though there is water damage towards the exterior side, it seems to be structurally sound.
I don't know why the window dropped.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Unfortunately Ron, I believe I figured out why it dropped. The front/left of the upstairs section of my house is held up by a single 2" X 4"., with the next support being about 12-14' away from that across the front. At the base of this 2X4, it looks to have been cut down about 2"-3" inches at the bottom at one time, causing the upstairs to settle a bit over the years(see photo included). The correct thing to do, would to remove the clap-boards, and jack up this section (the upstairs) a bit, and then sister a couple of 2 X 4's along side of the original one. What my concern is, since this house has been this way for many many years, and I know that there is a lot of old termite damage, I am worried that the upstairs could collapse. In the photo, note the way the upstairs balcony floor line is tilted back the wrong way. Everything that has been done to this side of the house for many years has been done to compensate for this, including the sashes. Also, the floor of the balcony has been built up, so that from the balcony, it appears to be level. The 2 x 4 in question runs from the foundation to the floor of the upstairs. If I removed the short sections of the clap-boards, then I could fit a jack on the foundation, and jack it up 2-3". BUT, I have no idea if this would put too much of a strain on the structure. Also, not how the main beam under the house is being "dented" in by the 2 X 4, because the base of this board was NOT cut square.

Whats you take on my assesment, and my reasons why I am afraid to jack up the upstairs?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

:thumbup:nice old house you have there


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thank you Tom. But as you can see, it's going to be a lifetime of work. I'm broke, with a big old house.:laughing::laughing: Every penney I have goes into this place. Unfortunately, it takes a lot more than just pennies.


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## Baron (Jan 6, 2009)

That window looks like it is nail over the siding. Is that sheathed or un sheathed house? 

If that is nailed over the siding and it is a sheathed house, not a clapboard over studs (Old Novelty siding combo sheathing siding) then it is totally installed wrong and should be removed and redone correctly.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

"Whats you take on my assesment, and my reasons why I am afraid to jack up the upstairs?"

I've only seen a few pictures on the internet, so it's hard to give a specific recommendation. I can comment on the general overview of the project.
You can't really access the solution to the problem without having stripped all the wall coverings off the whole area. That would be the entire front on both floors. Maybe around the corners to the sides. It would really depend what you found.
You need to confirm the structural integrity of the first floor before applying any pressure to the second floor. If the first floor framing members were solid, right down to the sill plate and rim joist on the foundation, you could then plan the second floor adjustments.
I'm hoping the collapsing scenario upon jacking was just a casual remark, because if that's the situation, even the static situation is a bit dire.
If it was decided that the second floor could be raised and reframed, you woud need to build temporay walls all the way to the basement to act as a bearing wall and support the jacking sequence. I would have 4x4's or 4x6's as top and bottom plates and 2x4's 12" on center. Without a proper support system, you would be pushing the flloors down as well as pushing the ceilings up. The area with the less support would move the most.
I had to jack up the back of a 2 1/2 story colonial about 20 years ago due to extensive termite damage to a 4x6 sill plate. I had to remove the lower wall material on the first floor wall to see if the studs were damaged as I couldn't put upward pressure if the vertical members were just going to collapse. Luckily there was little activity in those studs and I was able to jack it up about an inch over two weeks. There was minimal cracking in the plaster walls on the first floor and none on the second floor. I replaced the 20 ' of damaged sill plate with double 2x6 PT wood.
I used 4x4 plates in the basement and a 55 ton bottle jack I rented. After I raised the joists, I would place shims under the temporary wall and move along the wall to the other side, shimming along the way. Then I'd let the walls sit for a day or so and repeat the process. When it was done, the 3/8" space between the crown molding and the ceiling in the dining room above had disappeared.
Once your walls were cleared of plaster, you would need to access the entire structure as to the safety of jacking it up and the best sequence to do the job. If this is not in your area of expertise, I would bring in someone who can look at this situation and make recommedations for a successful project.
'Collapsing" should not be part of the job description. 
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

Baron said:


> That window looks like it is nail over the siding. Is that sheathed or un sheathed house?
> 
> If that is nailed over the siding and it is a sheathed house, not a clapboard over studs (Old Novelty siding combo sheathing siding) then it is totally installed wrong and should be removed and redone correctly.


i agree the sill looks like it was cut from a 2x4[not origional]Was this window worked on before?Is all the trim on the house this way? do the windows have drip caps on them?


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

All of the windows are original to the house. If you are looking at the green "fake" shutter, they were put on by the previous owner. Not my cup of tea. As I get to the windows I am working on, the first thing I do is to remove them. As far as the foundation goes, this are was replaced about 5 years ago, and they used 3 laminated 2" X 6" for this. One of the foundation supports lies directly below where I would have to install the jack, and this corner section where the 2X4 stud is lacated (in the photo) all these clap-boards would have to be removed. However, I didn't realize that all the plaster inside would also have to be removed before this was done. Well, maybe I should just leave the upstairs as it is, and just work on straightening the window frame. The sill itself is just a little bit off, its the window frame that is out by quite a bit. 

Ron, I'd like to hire a professional to do the "jacking", but since I am working on a shoe-string budget, maybe I should just pass on this job. I appreciate your opinions on this, and if you saw it, you might think it wasn't bad enough to even worry about it. But, then again, you might recommend to have it done. I know that you really can't tell by the few photos I have posted.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

"Ron, I'd like to hire a professional to do the "jacking", but since I am working on a shoe-string budget, maybe I should just pass on this job. I appreciate your opinions on this, and if you saw it, you might think it wasn't bad enough to even worry about it. But, then again, you might recommend to have it done. I know that you really can't tell by the few photos I have posted".

The experienced person would only advise you as to whether it could be jacked in it's present state or what it would take to get it into jacking condition. 
This guy would only be a consultant, you would do the work if it was determined that the houses condition wasn't in a dire condition. You would just need someone there to evaluate the issues and advise you. You would then decide if this was in your comfort zone. 
You might be able to hire a local contractor as sort of a mentor to the project. Work out a fee schedule you're both happy with.
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Ron

Do you have any idea as to how much someone might charge for this? Also, if I decided to "look" for someone, what kind of experience would serve as being qualified? I have a few friends that "say" they are contractors, but that doen't mean that they are qualified. Any suggestions you can make would be GREATLY appreciated!


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

bofusmosby said:


> Ron
> 
> Do you have any idea as to how much someone might charge for this? Also, if I decided to "look" for someone, what kind of experience would serve as being qualified? I have a few friends that "say" they are contractors, but that doen't mean that they are qualified. Any suggestions you can make would be GREATLY appreciated!


 I would look for someone who has extensive framing experience. Framing contractor, A GC who has experience either framing or supervising framers. Idealling an ex-framer who is too old to climb around rafters. Your area might have an Historical Society who can guide you to knowledgeable people.
As for cost, it would depend upon how involved the consultant would be. I charge a flat $250. fee for an on site visit and written recommendations as to a job scenario based on observations. If the homeowner wants occassional guidance through the project, it would run $100. per hour. A typical $125,000. project might run $1200-1500. Usually with a full oversight, there's a package price. It's really up to the homeowner and how comfortable he is with his skill set and project knowledge. 
Some people bite off more then they can chew. The skill set is not near where it should be and you need to explain that to them. A lot of job enthusiasum comes from home shows that skip over the nuts and bolts of a job and build an addition in 2, one hour shows.
Ron
Ron


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Thank you Ron I tore into the window framing this past weekend, and found that the sill had been replaced before many years ago. Since there were a lot of bad spots on it, I decided to put in a new one. I went to the lumber yard today, and will pick up the wood tomorrow. I also noticed that they didn't use all the correct sized wood. The blind stops were only 3/4, and the originals were 13/16" thick. The replaced window sill (from years ago) was just floating about the wood below, it was just nailed to the bottom of the window frame. Also, they seemed to more interested in making the inside sill (stool) straight, rather than the actual window. At this point in the house, the clap-boards are not perfectly level, but if I can straighten the windows to match the siding, then there should be no problem. I hope to give this a try this coming weekend. Even if I had the upstairs framing lifted to where it should be, the windows would still be out. I'll post some more photos, showing what I do, and see what you think.

I appreciate your feed-back. I thank you!

Jim


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i thought that sill wasnt origional:wink:


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## bofusmosby (Apr 30, 2007)

Yea Tom, you were right. It looks just like the originals on the outside before it was removed, but when I took it out, I could see it had been replaced years ago. I would guess maybe back in the 50's. Maybe this window has been crooked like this since then. Well, I'm going to do my best to replace the sill, as well as straighten the window frame, I hope I am succesful. You'll be able to tell by looking at the photos when completed.


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