# Please Help my pool is shocking the kids



## dSilanskas (Mar 23, 2008)

So let me get this straight they ran the wires for your pool just running in the ground not in conduit? And your kids are getting shocked? You need to stop using your pool and have it wired the correct way! The last thing you need is to have someone seriously hurt or killed. I would go to your town hall and tell the electrical inspector about what has happened and what your next course of action should be taken.. This is a serious situation your in


----------



## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

If I was called to task, I would check all exposed bonding connections.


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

With your main breaker at the house turned off, does the problem persist?

If so, then you may be experiencing outside stray voltages. These could originate from a neighbor's poorly wired premises, a leaking underground feeder cable, bad connections on a utility pole, etc.

Proper equipotential bonding is essential to prevent such occurrences. This is installed before the concrete is poured.

You should have had electrical inspections done while the pool was originally installed. Are there records of these inspections available? 

I'd also be willing to bet that the problem gets worse during periods of dry weather. Rain usually dampens the effect of such stray voltages.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

Thank you for all the advice....
Yes the pool still has the voltage when we are completely and I mean completely removed from the electric company main source.
There are no required electrical inspections in the township I live in so there are no records...
and yes...we have pictures of the electric wires and they are just UF no conduit.

How do I find the source of stray voltage if the electric comapny cant find it? They spen t 6 hours here one day, placed two more grounding rods from my pump and placed a blocker in the main box...

My neighbor built his house the year after we had the pool installed..is it a possibility that something is feeding from his house? How would I find this out??

Thank you so much for everyone's repsones I am just really at my wits end.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

We checked every possible exposed bonding there was...nothing undone. Another thing that I don't understand is that the GFCI they installed for my pool cover (it's automatic)...they installed it wrong with the load side on the opposite side so when you wire it right it automatically pops...Does this mean that maybe I have a broken wire somewhere under the concrete since they didn't use conduit...it works if the GFCI is hooked up backwards.....This doesn't explain to me why the voltage is still there when we are completely removed from the electric company though???


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

A properly installed gfci will not trip if you have a problem with the incoming wire.
Gfci's only sense the current leaving the device.
Modern gfci's do not work if connected back wards.

You need to find an electrician that knows the code on wiring pools and him check things out.


----------



## forresth (Feb 19, 2010)

yes, ground the water.
you are dealing with ions up the ying-yang with a saltwater chlorine generator. (all that crap should be bonded too if it has electricity going to it) My heat exchanger company wont honor thier warantee if its not bonded with a second bonding wire in addition to the regular neutral ground wire.

I believebonding the watert is a new part of the code to prevent exactly what you have going on. (but I wouldn't call that a major code violation. its a new part of the code, so you'd probably be grandfathered in with reguard to that if for some reason an inspector came out.

to ground my water, I used a piece of glavanized in the plumbing below the water level and attached a big grounding clamp, and tied it in with the rest of the grounding/bonding system. I think you have to have a minimum of 8 sq-inches in contact with the water. that doesnt take a very long section of pipe to do that. pi x Diameter x length. 

I believe someone sells a small coper pannel to go inside the skimmer with a bolt protruding to the outside for this purpose too.

ps. Why aren't you swiming?


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

forresth said:


> I believebonding the watert is a new part of the code to prevent exactly what you have going on. (but I wouldn't call that a major code violation. its a new part of the code, so you'd probably be grandfathered in with reguard to that if for some reason an inspector came out.
> 
> to ground my water, I used a piece of glavanized in the plumbing below the water level and attached a big grounding clamp, and tied it in with the rest of the grounding/bonding system. I think you have to have a minimum of 8 sq-inches in contact with the water. that doesnt take a very long section of pipe to do that. pi x Diameter x length.
> 
> ...


yes, it is part of the code now. I'm going to have to look bit there are some spec's that must be followed (contact area).

If the water and all other equipotential bonding grid points are in fact bonded, there should be no difference of potential from any two points that you can touch at the same time and as a result, no shock.

Oh, and OP:

do you have any lights in the pool (like in the wall)?


Pool water bond

an intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 5806 mm² (9 in.²) shall be in contact with the pool water. This bond shall be permitted to consist of parts that are required to be bonded in 680.26(B)


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

We do have a light in the pool but even with no power possible to the house..we still have voltage....Can stray voltage run back up a ground rod through the light and into the pool???


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

rnemt140 said:


> We do have a light in the pool but even with no power possible to the house..we still have voltage....Can stray voltage run back up a ground rod through the light and into the pool???


the neutral is connected to the source even if you turn off your main breaker.

I don't know if I can find it or not but there was a thread recently (actually started quite awhile ago) where the guy was having problems like yours. POCO came and did what they could. Ends up it was his light.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

In that case try to isolated the inpool lumiaires first both hot and netural conductors to see if that dropped if that the case then you have to track it more.

I will seriously advise you may end up get the electrician to come out and have this repaired in correct legal code way I know you may not be happy with the price but the main point is that I am condersing about your childrens that is crictal right there.

second thing I know you mention UF cable near the pool how far that UF cable is from if you can able guess if it is under the concrete pad or paver you have super serious issue allready arise.

and please do follow my and other members's advise about the bonding this is very critical to do it properly this is more than just a simple trobleshooting.

I do not know what your local electrician will charge for their time to deal with it but expect at least few hours for sure.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

HOLY CRAP. CALL THE POCO BACK and have them find the problem!
You CLEARLY state that you still have the issue after the main is shut off. This is a common occurrence and is NOT on your side of the electrical system. 

Second, WHY THE HELL are you using a BRAND NEW pool that has all those serious violations?????? HOW did this mess get inspected and pass????

I would call a reputable electrician in your area to come out and give you an estimate on fixing EVERYTHING. Then call the original company and tell them they are going to pay for it. I can't stand hack companies that do sh*t work and then run away!
After you get blown off by then call the PSC and report them! This company should NOT be doing business!

Who ever sank the ground rods didn't have a clue about how this stuff works. A ground rod is completely worthless in this situation and can even sometimes create a problem if things are not installed right, which is what it sounds like.

I understand that it is Saturday and Sunday and you are looking for answers, but you need to stop using this pool and take care of this immediately, and not over the internet.


----------



## The Deez (Jul 9, 2010)

I've run into this problem before with a customer of ours, we ended up finding a leak across the grounding and the grounded conductor. Then we found an improperly installed sub panel that the pool circuits were cut into. maybe for a long shot this is your case as well, if your pool wiring is installed into a main lug sub panel make sure the grounded and the grounding conductors are separated in the sub panel. if they are not, then this will cause a difference in potential to ground from the main service causing electrical shocks. Even with service shut off, voltage can still leak. This would also cause your gfci to trip. This may not be your cause but, it's a step in the right direction as you have a serious grounding problem and should be looked at by a qualified electrician


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

For a less-likely cause, let's say it's stray current in the ground from nearby sources.

You could try probing the ground for voltage using a single conductor in an extension cord as one long test lead and the regular meter lead as the other. 
If the current flow is east to west, then you should get a larger reading with the probes along an E-W line than along a N-S line.

The farther the probes are apart, 20' or 40' or farther, the greater the voltage reading.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Yoy, I know you are an engineer or something like that, but would you seriously give advice like this:


Yoyizit said:


> You could try probing the ground for voltage using a single conductor in an extension cord as one long test lead and the regular meter lead as the other.
> If the current flow is east to west, then you should get a larger reading with the probes along an E-W line than along a N-S line.
> 
> The farther the probes are apart, 20' or 40' or farther, the greater the voltage reading.


....to someone who wrote this:


rnemt140 said:


> Helpless in Ohio....btw I know that electricity and water dont mix and the only thing I understand about electricity is that I use it to "shock" people back into a normal heart rhythm in the ER....


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

It's got to be much safer than swimming in that pool! :yes:

I never understood why something as large as a cow is more sensitive to current than we are.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/strayvol.htm


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

The ONLY safe thing for them right now is calling in the pros.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Here's some more info.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="stray+voltage"+swimming+pool&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Yes, the OP can call several pros and ask them about the different techniques discussed in these links plus whatever worked in the past for them.
The ones who can comfortably talk about the ups and downs of each method seem like good candidates for coming out for a looksee and some tests/measurements.
The test instruments for this don't seem particularly outlandish or specialized.

As for the non-returned phone calls, notifying the Ohio Attorney General in writing can sometimes loosen tongues. The OP has already paid his/her salary so he might as well get something for it.

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I agree with Speedy Pete .,,

Engough is engough .,,

You have to call the electrician to come out and deal with the situation and whoever installed the pool if they are still in bussiness they should the one put up all the mess and that pool company should pay for the mess I will never let that install like that at all that is way too dangerous and too many code related issue not only on electrical side but I have a feeling there may other issue as well.

Just like everyone else say .,, stop use the pool and call in electrician I know it will cost some money but this is the only way you can make the pool safe.

I am sorry if that sound harsh but to do troubleshoot the pool electrical system that not a easy task and it can get over your head very easy and with your sistuation.

Get the POCO come back and they will have to dig up few more testing including check out other house where it may get stray voltage comming from somewhere else if the POCO tempory shut one section of grid they can able dail in which house it is causing stray voltage. { the stray voltage can go quite a distance if bad primary connection }

Merci.
Marc


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Reading through some of my links tells me that asking PoCo to fix this 
is like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.
Stuff they do, or change, a half mile away can cause this.

The experts recommend using a 500 ohm resistor to simulate the human body for testing. 470 ohms is a standard 5% value and a 2w power rating should be plenty. It's a few cents from Radio Shack. Numbers are hard to spin.

Also, the voltage level may vary with the time of day so I'd recommend that your elec. guy hook up a recording voltmeter.

What a dangerous and costly hassle. 

In this case salty water actually helps because it shunts some of the current around the less conductive human body.


----------



## forresth (Feb 19, 2010)

Ok guys, the sky is not falling. 
just ground everything and see if the problem goea away. it should all be grounded anyway.

There is no need to call in the Nation Guard in on this one.


----------



## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Another possibility is maybe it's actually a phone line causing the issue. Phone lines are still about 50 or so volts, and higher while it's ringing. Do they only get shocked at random intervals or is it all the time? You won't feel 50 volts if you touch the wires, but maybe in water you do.

If the poco is not being helpful I would talk with the phone company and see what they say. That's assuming the phone is underground in your area, if it's not then this point is moot.



forresth said:


> Ok guys, the sky is not falling.
> just ground everything and see if the problem goea away. it should all be grounded anyway.
> 
> There is no need to call in the Nation Guard in on this one.


Actually the coast guard is not a bad idea, they could put their ship in it and they have all sorts of probes they could use to test. :laughing:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

forresth said:


> Ok guys, the sky is not falling.
> just ground everything and see if the problem goea away. it should all be grounded anyway.
> 
> There is no need to call in the Nation Guard in on this one.


Oh really? REALLY???

You are experienced in these matters are you? Ground everything you say?
I bet you would be one of those who sink a few ground rods thinking that will make everything all better huh?

Yup, no clue, just as I though. Grounding will solve NOTHING in this situation. Bonding may help, but still may not eliminate the whole problem.

I'd bet anything that this problem is not even on site, but that coupled with a hacked up new pool installation is a deadly combination. I think the other professionals here would agree. 

No, not the Nat Guard, but someone else qualified. :thumbsup:


----------



## carpetrepairguy (Jul 11, 2010)

and pay him to figure out what to do about it. 

on my post. I actually thought I said to find the best electrician around and pay him to figure out what's wrong.


Steve Gordon Carpet Repair Expert


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

say bye steve


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

carpetrepairguy said:


> on my post. I actually thought I said to find the best electrician around and pay him to figure out what's wrong.


Just ignore me. I'm used to a few sites where any personal advertising is verboten and when I come here, I forget that it is allowed under certain terms.

Sorry about jumping the gun. Just so you know, I did report it to the mods (thinking is was not allowed). They'll simply ignore me too.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

We do get a lot of spammers....No harm done
I'd rather check out a dozen posts & they are OK then let even one spammer get by

Going on our 7th season swimming here I have never felt the slightest tingle in my pool


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

For a temporary but costly fix you might try a mesh made of Monel or some similar alloy fastened to the pipe and surrounding area, depending on how far away the problem extends. 
It does not have to be grounded.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I really don't know for sure what this would do but the idea of "grounding everything" suggested earelier intrigues me.

What would be the effect of burying a bare #6 copper wire about a foot deep and going around just outside the perimeter of the pool, bonding this to the ground wire (grounding conductor) in the existing power cable back to the panel?

What I had in mind was equalizing any voltage differences in the soil in the vicinity of the pool.

Oh yes, do not energize the cable to the pool until the electrical code violations are fixed.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

AllanJ said:


> What I had in mind was equalizing any voltage differences in the soil in the vicinity of the pool.


Another way would be to saturate the ground around the pool with a conductive solution. I think they make a product like this for grounding in sandy soils.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> I really don't know for sure what this would do but the idea of "grounding everything" suggested earelier intrigues me.
> 
> What would be the effect of burying a bare #6 copper wire about a foot deep and going around just outside the perimeter of the pool, bonding this to the ground wire (grounding conductor) in the existing power cable back to the panel?
> 
> ...


the point of a bonding system has nothing to do with grounding. it also does not necessarily have anything to do with the electrical system. While that is where most shocks come from, there can be electrolytic action between some materials that could produce enough energy to produce a shock.

If the water and the concrete are at the same potential, there will be no shock, regardless how much energy is present so, the water and the concrete must be brought to the same potential via an equipotential bonding grid. If there is no steel in the concret, it presents a problem and if the steel that is in the concrete was not tie wired together throughout the concrete pad, we _might_ have a problem.

What I would do first is to disconnect all power going to the pool area, hot , neutral, and ground conductors and check again.. If that removes the problem, I would start looking for some leakage or a neutral problem. The lights would be a good place to start so, disconnect all conductors leading to the lights, connect the power to the rest of the system and check again.

by chance, did anybody install a fence post or drive anything into the ground near the underground power? and I mean either when it was first installed or anytime since then and if so, is there any correlation to that and the first notice of the shocking?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Just a note. This is a quote from the OP in post #5:


> rnemt140 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes the pool still has the voltage when we are completely and I mean completely removed from the electric company main source.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Just a note. This is a quote from the OP in post #5:


Can we get a referee's decision?

Unless somebody actually cut the neutral conductor, he was still connected. Since the POCO did come out, they might have actually done that at one point. I would like the OP to verify that though just to be sure.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes the neutral conductor was disconnetecd. We had the electric company disconnect us like the house did not exist. We still had the voltage in the pool water. When testing from the pool water to wet cement the voltage is there but to dry cement it is not. I contacted the cement company and they stated that there was a grid placed in the concrete when it was poured. Everything has been disconnected all the reachable coneections in junction boxes have been undone and still voltage in pool/ We are going to try and bond the water tonight and I will see how that does....now my next question is..what if we bond the water and there is no voltage but there is a surge at some point later in the future...will the bonded water keep my kids safe from the surge????


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

nap,

We have done no landscaping...there was a fence placed right after installation but it is 5-7 foot away from the cement so it did not have anyway to cut through lines....


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

Is there anyway I can post some pitures so you know and can see what I am talking about with this jobsite???


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

rnemt140 said:


> nap,
> 
> We have done no landscaping...there was a fence placed right after installation but it is 5-7 foot away from the cement so it did not have anyway to cut through lines....


I wasn't meaning proximity to the concrete. I meant to the power lines. Could be the same in your situation but...

and yes, you can post pics.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

rnemt140 said:


> We are going to try and bond the water tonight and I will see how that does....now my next question is..what if we bond the water and there is no voltage but there is a surge at some point later in the future...will the bonded water keep my kids safe from the surge????


Bonding the water is not going to do a thing. The problem is NOT in the water.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Yoyizit said:


> For a temporary but costly fix you might try a mesh made of Monel or some similar alloy fastened to the pipe and surrounding area, depending on how far away the problem extends.
> .


Not exactly on topic but if you are going to bond the water using a conductive screen or plate, do not use items with sharp edges or corners.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground. Why no sharp edges? does that make a difference? There were no elelctrical lines in the proximity of the pool fence to cut through that we are aware of...we had POCO out to mark all the known lines.
I would love to post some pictures for you all to see what I am dealing with as I am female and pictures make more sense to me to look at and get a whole feel for this situation...When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?


----------



## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

*Barking up the wrong tree?*

Hey everyone: There's no good reason at this point to assume the voltage being measured here is originating from the power grid at all. The first measurement was less than 2 volts. The most recent measurement was less than 1V. Both of those are well within the range of cell potentials for dissimilar metals in conductive solutions. Before jumping to conclusions about stray voltage from utilities and inadequate bonding and such, it would be good to know how those measurements were taken. If the meter was reading DC volts between a (steel or nickel plated) probe in the water and some other metal object, then these voltages are to be expected. The only way to confirm that this is a power-grid-related problem is to confirm that the voltage being measured is 60Hz AC. Need a good digital meter or an oscilloscope to do that.

As many mariners well know, dissimilar metals like bronze and stainless steel in salt water can produce enough potential to give a good tingle to a wet person.

I would also note that the improper use of UF cable instead of conduit to feed the pool, and the backwards installation of the GFCI for the pool cover (which apparently has a ground fault!) cannot possibly have anything to do with this stray voltage problem, which persists with the utility disconnected. Those problems should be fixed, but are red herrings here.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

rnemt140 said:


> I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground.


What ground??? The dirt? Like you have been told, this will do NOTHING. You need to connect it to the equipotential bonding grid, if they even installed one.






rnemt140 said:


> I would love to post some pictures for you all to see what I am dealing with as I am female and pictures make more sense to me to look at and get a whole feel for this situation...When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?


You need to host the pics on a site like Photobucket.com or Flikr.com, then reference the URL of the image.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> rnemt140;468492]I was going to bond the water with copper inside the skimmer attached to the ground.


Ground has nothing to do with this. You bond all elements able to carry current so they are of the same potential (no voltage difference between them). Even if there is voltage, since there is no difference of potential, there can be no current flow. That is why these guys can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBFJ4SjT8Y





..


> When I try to post it asks for a URL but the pics are in my picture folder how can I post pics without a URL?


you click on the little paperclip (in the panel above the post here) and upload the pictures you want to use. Then you have to attach them to the post.

Especially since the neutral and all power conductors were disconnected at one point during the testing, I would think it has to do with the POCO and their system and if so, the bonding is intended to remove just such a problem. It will create an equipotential plane throughout the entire pool area so even if the POCO is using their land as a return path, all of the bonding grid will be of the same potential and remove the possibility of a shock, until they touch a point within the grid and one outside of the grid. That is where the grid would need to be extended beyond any possible are this could happen. Might have to run a grid in the ground 6 feet outside of the pool area to overcome a POCO induced problem.

How close are any power company power lines, either overhead or underground, to this area.

The pool shell; what material? If there is a metal wall behind a liner, was the wall bonded to the steel in the concrete or were there provisions to allow the steel wall to be included in a bonding grid?

If it is a gunite, concrete, or shotcrete pool, was the reinforcing metal in the pool bonded to the bonding grid?





and you aren't getting reading from the water to dry concrete because dry concrete is not conductive.


----------



## FrankL (Jun 9, 2010)

rnemt140 said:


> We do have a light in the pool but even with no power possible to the house..we still have voltage....Can stray voltage run back up a ground rod through the light and into the pool???


There have been cases where people have been electrocuted because the pool light. People in the pool brush up against it and it is not grounded or loose. He needs to keep everyone out of that pool until he finds out what is going on. 

Frank Lardino


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

"The National Electrical Code and the National Electrical Safety Code are contributing to the shocking of Americans. The required wiring practices of the two codes encourages the flow of continuous, uncontrolled current over the earth, metallic piping, building steel, etc. This uncontrolled flow of current has resulted in unsafe electrical shocks to humans. This uncontrolled stray current may have resulted in fatalities. Utilities' distribution transformer connections contribute to the flow of stray uncontrolled continuous current. The methods of preventing such stray current is discussed. A case of a swimming pool shocking the bathers is also examined"
from
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="swimming+pool"+shock+IEEE&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> "The National Electrical Code and the National Electrical Safety Code are contributing to the shocking of Americans. The required wiring practices of the two codes encourages the flow of continuous, uncontrolled current over the earth, metallic piping, building steel, etc. This uncontrolled flow of current has resulted in unsafe electrical shocks to humans. This uncontrolled stray current may have resulted in fatalities. Utilities' distribution transformer connections contribute to the flow of stray uncontrolled continuous current. The methods of preventing such stray current is discussed. A case of a swimming pool shocking the bathers is also examined"
> from
> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="swimming+pool"+shock+IEEE&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


Bull$#@t


----------



## a7ecorsair (Jun 1, 2010)

brric,
What are you saying BS too?
I found this article quite interesting
http://www.eiwellspring.org/tech/TheShockingSwimmingPool.pdf


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

brric said:


> Bull$#@t


Killing the messenger(s) is a time-honored tradition. So is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

It seems that PoCo's practices make most people safe most of the time, but a possibly unavoidable side effect of those same practices is that pool users [10% of the homeowners?] are sometimes endangered.

I'd make or buy a voltage monitor and when it goes off it's Everybody Out Of The Pool Now, preferably using non-metallic ladders.
Hooking it to a single channel recorder with a 24 hour memory could show trends, and if the trend is up it's also EOOTPN.
$20 in parts should cover both the monitor and recorder.

For the OP, perhaps a non-conductive water inlet coupler would work for the moment.

I'm surprised that the utility company hasn't declared this Zipse guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Yoyizit said:


> Killing the messenger(s) is a time-honored tradition. So is
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
> 
> It seems that PoCo's practices make most people safe most of the time, but a possibly unavoidable side effect of those same practices is that pool users [10% of the homeowners?] are sometimes endangered.
> ...


what is a non-conductive water inlet coupler?

and in the pool situation; no proven conclusion? never solved the problem?

Never any voltage measurements to prove that current flow was even a possibility between any two points?

never any current measurements that proved current flow that the swimmers were claiming?

So, based on their study, nothing should be grounded, right? That is the only way to ensure to remove the problem they are describing.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

nap said:


> what is a non-conductive water inlet coupler?


A plastic coupler that mates with the existing metallic pipe? The PSI in a pool water inlet pipe can't be very high.
I doubt now that PoCo is going to reduce their in-ground currents so I'd start isolating and insulating, while monitoring voltage.

The OP should also send out e-mails to some of the experts at the bottom of the links who posted their personal e-mail addresses. 
It can't hurt.

There's something else I should bring up about public safety. 
Schiavo wrote a book called "Flying safe, flying blind" and in it a guy actually said out loud they wouldn't fix an aircraft safety problem because 'not enough people have died.' I thank him for his candor but I also hope to see him some day in a very hot place presided over by a guy with a pitchfork, horns and a tail.

Getting shocked is one thing, which can be kind of a subjective he said/she said type of thing, but there's not much doubt when someone gets killed. 
My search for 'wrongful death' and 'pool' turned up a bunch of plaintiff's attorneys and not much else of use. If the number of people who die each year from this in the US is down in the noise, then PoCo is not going to be very motivated to correct this. 
How low is down in the noise? Well, for food poisoning it's 5000/yr.

B. Fischoff did a lot of work on this. Public perception turns out to be very important.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

A typical equipotential grid consists of not one but four copper wires around the perimeter of the pool structure, one is just at the perimeter, one is a foot further out, one two feet out, and one three feet out, all of them bonded at 12 inch intervals (with more copper wire) to form a mesh with 12 inch square openings.

Ideally it is situated under the walkway around the perimeter of the pool but if the pool is already in place without the grid then the grid has to be buried futher outside.

If the pool perimeter walkway is concrete with rebar, then the rebar can be the grid with additional copper wires added to end up with the three foot width.

All metal objects -- the equipotential grid, railings, light housings, ladders, pump components, metal water supply pipe without nonconductive coupler, etc. are bonded together. And all of this is bonded to the ground wire back to the electrical panel.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

AllanJ said:


> All metal objects -- the equipotential grid, railings, light housings, ladders, pump components, metal water supply pipe without nonconductive coupler, etc. are bonded together.* And all of this is bonded to the ground wire back to the electrical panel.*


The bold part is optional. There is NO requirement that a bonding grid connection be made to any panel or enclosure.

_*680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
(B) Bonded Parts.* The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area *shall not be required* to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes._


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> A typical equipotential grid consists of not one but four copper wires around the perimeter of the pool structure, one is just at the perimeter, one is a foot further out, one two feet out, and one three feet out, all of them bonded at 12 inch intervals (with more copper wire) to form a mesh with 12 inch square openings.
> 
> Ideally it is situated under the walkway around the perimeter of the pool but if the pool is already in place without the grid then the grid has to be buried futher outside.
> 
> ...


you missed the water. It's not optional 

the steel within the concrete must be included as well, if present.

as does a conductive pool shell




> I doubt now that PoCo is going to reduce their in-ground currents so I'd start isolating and insulating, while monitoring voltage.


and isolating is exactly how you cause there to be a difference of potential and that is why you get shocked. Insulating is not practical. You can't insulate the water


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

nap said:


> Insulating is not practical. You can't insulate the water


Well, it's kind of strange.

If you insulate and isolate no current can flow and so no shock. 
But if you make everything conductive then virtually no voltage drop and so no shock. 
So the two ways are directly opposed.

But at least with isolation, PoCo has no control over the voltage drop by their having heavy currents in the ground.

Fresh water is pretty resistive, salt water and concrete not so much and the human body is in between. 
Bulk resistivity is measured in ohm-meters and the actual resistance in ohms depends on the shape of the conductive channel.

tap water, 1M to 100M ohm-meter
fresh water, 1000 ohm-meter
concrete, 200 ohm-meter
human body, 5 ohm-meter
salt water 0.2 ohm-meter
copper, 20 nanoohm-meter

I'd do troubleshooting before changing anything. The usual fixes don't seem to work, but they halved the voltage so they did have some effect.

It's too bad the OP is not nearby - I'd lug my test stuff out there and take a look. 
This has got to be even more difficult than troubleshooting AFCIs. This 'semi-conductive circuitry' is three dimensional and the ground current varies with time, soil moisture and maybe other factors.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> If you insulate and isolate no current can flow and so no shock.


until something bridged that isolation.



> But if you make everything conductive then virtually no voltage drop and so no shock.


who said this? Not I. I said you bond everything so there can be no difference in potential. No difference in potential means you cannot be shocked. It is impossible to be shocked unless there is a difference of potential.





> But at least with isolation, PoCo has no control over the voltage drop by their having heavy currents in the ground.


with equipotential plane, it doesn't matter because...wait for it...

you have no difference of potential therefor, there cannot be any current flow, no shock



> Fresh water is pretty resistive, salt water and concrete not so much and the human body is in between.


pretty resistive? Not good enough. You need non-conductive and then when you put contaminates such as the pool chemicals and the salt from your sweat and urine and viola` conductor.




> Bulk resistivity is measured in ohm-meters and the actual resistance in ohms depends on the shape of the conductive channel.
> 
> tap water, 1M to 100M ohm-meter
> fresh water, 1000 ohm-meter
> ...


your measurements are meaningless and to prove it, read your own link about the pool and read this thread about the OP's kids getting shocked. The fact is; pool water is a good enough conductor to allow current to flow between to points with a difference of potential.



> I'd do troubleshooting before changing anything. The usual fixes don't seem to work, but they halved the voltage so they did have some effect.


I never advised otherwise. Obviously remove all defects but you also need to install a bonding grid.




> This has got to be even more difficult than troubleshooting AFCIs. This 'semi-conductive circuitry' is three dimensional and the ground current varies with time, soil moisture and maybe other factors.


it can be very difficult. Again, read the link you posted. Notice the correlation between temps and shocks. There are a huge number of variables that can change things in situations such as this.


Yes, OP needs to correct NEC violations and known defects. OP needs to install a proper equipotential bonding grid. OP needs to have an electrician the has dealt with problems like this.

No sense in trying to short cut this problem ; fix every known problem, look at things that could be a problem, then start over with tests and see where you are.

and to your disagreement about isolation, insulating, and bonding; watch the video I linked about the lineman. That will explain why bonding cures problems that isolation and insulation can only attempt to cure. Bonding actually removes the possibility of a shock. Insulation tries to prevent is but is is only as good as the insulation and only lasts as long as the insulation remains intact. The isolation only works if you can effectively isolate things. The OP's situation proves why it is not viable.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

"Uncle."


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I've been reading this thread but confess I need a bit more time to digest everything. The OP seems to be gone but I couldn't help seeing the part about the "non conductive water inlet" yoyizit mentioned, which I wondered what that might be as did nap. Anyway that got me thinking that a guy could just make one of these contraptions and bond the water too ... might make a buck or two .... so I put one together and I'm thinking maybe ask 50 bucks for it and see if it flies.... I think I'll call it "acme water bonder". It's very important that you point the coil at the pump and not the pool for proper polarity. I'm looking for product field testers if anyone is interested.

On a more serious note I didn't catch if it was verified that a bonding grid was in the concrete walkway and bonded to the EPBG ... is it?


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> I've been reading this thread but confess I need a bit more time to digest everything. The OP seems to be gone but I couldn't help seeing the part about the "non conductive water inlet" yoyizit mentioned, which I wondered what that might be as did nap. Anyway that got me thinking that a guy could just make one of these contraptions and bond the water too ... might make a buck or two .... so I put one together and I'm thinking maybe ask 50 bucks for it and see if it flies.... I think I'll call it "acme water bonder". It's very important that you point the coil at the pump and not the pool for proper polarity. I'm looking for product field testers if anyone is interested.


If you provide the pool to install that contraption in as well as the contraption, I'm game. Heck, if you supply the pool, I'll even give you the $50 for the contraption.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Sorry '
stubbie, looks like someone beat you.

http://cmiwebsite.com/html/pool___spa_-electrical.html

There is also this type


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I'm still willing to field test yours stubby, same deal as before.:thumbsup:


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Nap

I made an edit on a more serious note in my previous post. Is the concrete part of the EPBG ? Or has that not been verified?


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Jim Port


> Sorry '
> stubbie, looks like someone beat you.


No mine is over on ebay I never dreamed someone was actually making the thing. Anyway it's not really mine I just thought some nut was trying to make 50 bucks over the net. I had no idea that a company was behind it.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

For those interested I saved this thread over on Holts site some time ago. There is a lot to be learned in this discussion. 

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=126243


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Hi Nap
> 
> I made an edit on a more serious note in my previous post. Is the concrete part of the EPBG ? Or has that not been verified?


na. No idea what is actually bonded or if there is steel in the concrete that should have been bonded.

any ideas on how to successfully bond concrete with no steel reinforcements in it? I know concrete is considered to be conductive hence the Ufer system. Just don't know what would be a practical idea if there is no steel.

and that thread over at Mike's is very informative. While it is a serious matter, I couldn't help but laugh when I read this:



> You could try and map the non-equipotentialness; get your boots and socks off, grab one meter probe, with the other probe still connected to house ground through the extension lead, wander round the surrounding concrete and grass watching the meter. You may locate where the stray current is being injected... And that may lead to an acceptable fix.


or wetting your pants when the tingle got a bit too strong. Never place yourself in a circuit unless you have all the answers about voltage and current first. Meters are cheaper than a funeral.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> I couldn't help seeing the part about the "non conductive water inlet" yoyizit mentioned, which I wondered what that might be as did nap.


Seems I read 'inline' as 'inlet.'


rnemt140 said:


> the inline water bonding system


I thought the OP said people got shocked near the water inlet which implied a localized problem but now I can't find that passage. It might have been in one of the other case histories.

Even with this cite
http://ewh.ieee.org/conf/tdc/IEEE_T&D_April_2008_Lambert.pdf
I can't seem to find a 'passing value' for voltage, an acceptable minimum. 1 vac is too high, but 0.3 vac and lower might not be detectible by most people.
The use of #8 wire implies that someone somewhere made an E = IR calculation.

Felt shock intensity also depends on frequency, so with harmonics in the 60 Hz this might also cause a variation in the reported results.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

> You could try and map the non-equipotentialness; get your boots and socks off, grab one meter probe, with the other probe still connected to house ground through the extension lead, wander round the surrounding concrete and grass watching the meter. You may locate where the stray current is being injected... And that may lead to an acceptable fix.


Maybe they should try this method that was suggested elsewhere.



> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:jester:​


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

nap said:


> na. No idea what is actually bonded or if there is steel in the concrete that should have been bonded.
> 
> any ideas on how to successfully bond concrete with no steel reinforcements in it? I know concrete is considered to be conductive hence the Ufer system. Just don't know what would be a practical idea if there is no steel.
> 
> ...


Yeah hopefully that guy was joking.

I don't have any ideas how you would bond the concrete if it has already been placed. At least no ideas that would be cheaper than tearing it out and starting over.

After quickly reading this thread I gotta believe that a bond doesn't exist with the EPBG and the concrete even if the concrete has the copper grid in it. It seems it has failed or poor installation or doesn't exist at all. 

I don't have a great deal of experience finding or troubleshooting pool issues like being discussed here other than trying the things you and others have already suggested. If it is more complicated than that then your going to have to find someone that has experience at the next level.

On another note he did say a neutral blocker did reduce the voltage to .74 volts from 1.7 volts. But that could be that all it did was reduce the voltage drop on the service neutral depending on where they placed the blocker....I think. I say this because you are bonded to the egc at the pump assuming it is not double insulated and no bonding lug. All this gives you a bond with the service grounding and neutral bond at the SE. It seems that a test might be beneficial with that bond broken and a potential between the concrete and water taken. Of course I am also assuming that no potential differences exist between other items of the EPBG.

On that thread over on Holts site it was mentioned by one of the electricians that total elimination of potential differences is sometimes hard to achieve .. you just hope the ones that do are very small and away from the waters edge. So I'm not sure what small is but .74 volts is pretty small...except this is at the water and concrete.

It also seems one might want to take some current readings as Jim mentioned a few posts back. If there is current flowing on the EPBG or the egc of the equipment circuits then your issue gets more dangerous. 

Just some quick thoughts. 

At this point unless the OP will return with any further details or an update with the solution we are just in a discussion with each other over what ifs.

Still though I really enjoy this subject when it comes to pools with problems like we have here. I think it is a weak area of knowledge with most electricians .. at least it is for me. So a lot to be learned in discussions like this one here.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> Still though I really enjoy this subject when it comes to pools with problems like we have here. I think it is a weak area of knowledge with most electricians .. at least it is for me. So a lot to be learned in discussions like this one here.


I see it as weak area of understanding not only for electricians but for engineers as well. There are a variety of causes and what (I think) happens is when a solution in one case is found, many think it is the solution in all similar situations. Then, when it doesn't work, they start arguing the original repair was incorrect or simply coincidental. Then all the BS starts getting thrown all over the place.


The facts as I see them are:

there are going to be neutral currents and they have a great deal to do with the POCO. Due to their system's designs, they are not curable. It is an inherent part of their design.

As such, the use of an EQPG is extremely important. As such, the design and implementation of such is critical.

just as why a lineman can go and crawl across 738K lines without being injured due to the system he uses to prevent current flow through his body, the EQPG will prevent current flow because it remove the differences of potential that cause current flow. The current flow is still there in the areas not included in the EQPG but due to the lack of difference of potential, there can be no current flow from any point within the grid to any other point within the grid. That is what makes it safe and is not dependent on the removal of the current flow outside of the grid. 

The grid can actually have flow through it as it can have a difference of potential between it and some point in the ground but that flow is irrelevant to what happens within the grid itself and that is what the EQPG deals with.

People have a misconception that voltage is only present in a power line or some other intended conductor. That truth is, voltage is simply a measurement of the difference of the charges, whether they be a positive or negative charge, between two points. You can measure a voltage between just about any two points that are isolated from each other. Nature pretty much causes that. If you take any two points and bond them, it equalizes the charge within what is now one conductor and removes the reason for current flow. While the charge itself is still there, it just will not flow until there is a connection with a point with a different level of charge.

and that connection and subsequent equalization is the job of the EQPG. It is only when you are the connection between the grid and some other conductor that has a different charge will there be current flow which we recognize as being shocked.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I can't really find any fault with what your saying as it does seem that potoential differences would be removed if the EPBG is constructed with the necessary care.

What I do have a problem with is just how to you bring all the water at every point in the pool to the exact same potential with the EPBG?. The chemicals make the water quite conductive but it doesn't seem as simple as metal to metal bonds. It seems to me it would be much like earth (dirt) where the potential floats from point to point. In other words would the potential necessarily be the same getting out of the pool on a metal ladder that is bonded to the EPBG vs. getting out of the water by just lifting yourself up on the concrete on the other side of the pool .. assuming wet concrete? 

A metal ladder is going to bond the water if the EPBG is correct but there are a lot of pools where that bonding doesn't exist unless you install something that bonds the water with the EPBG. So my thought is a lot of non-bonded water is not shocking people even if the concrete walkway has the bond with the EPBG. It would seem that these pools would inherit a potential difference due to non-bonded water yet they do not shock you.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

As long as we're on the subject - 
With bulk resistivities contact surface area is important so if a swimmer with 4 sq. in. hand surface and 8 sq. in. footprint area gets a shock and the current flows from hand to foot, for repeatable results the body simulator should have two conductive meshes with these areas, with a resistor in between.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> It would seem that these pools would inherit a potential difference due to non-bonded water yet they do not shock you.


Not all pools are subject to the same charges via the ground. Some pools would cause no shocks whatsoever if there was no EQBG let alone an imperfect one. Remember the code generally doesn't required a GEC in a house if it is probable that there will be a situation that it is beneficial or that a grounding electrode system is required only on houses that are likely to experience surges; they are required on all houses regardless of the propensity of that house to be subject to the problems the grounding systems are installed to safeguard against.


Pools are the same. Not all pools will be subjected to ground currents which result in shocks but since some do and it has found to be beneficial, all pools are required to have the EQBG.

in other words; better safe than sorry.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Sorry so long getting back to your response NAP. Had several issues that took most the afternoon and evening. 

Anyway I do agree with your analysis that there are so many variables with ground voltage gradients that an EQBG must be installed in the event a pool not subject to ground voltages/currents suddenly becomes subjected to one.

Without it you have no way to protect people from a voltage gradient that appears from any number of faults. You also have no way to correct any potential difference to the concrete if it doesn't have the bonding grid.

In the case of this thread and the op's original problem it seems that the solution is verifying everything is bonded to the EQBG. I would suspect the concrete doesn't have any grid to bond to or was flawed design when installed or the bond has failed.

I wish he would return with more details after reading our responses. It would be great to determine what fixes his problem.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I think the OP might be overwhelmed with the discussion.

sounds like OP got a raw deal from the installing electrician as well. If it were me, I would call a reputable electrical company to determine what it would take to correct all of the problems and go after the installer.

Then, when they have a proper installation, they can deal with any problems remaining.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

A question that must not be overlooked.

If the concrete does not have rebar in it, is there any way to solve the problem without destroying the pool?

I would consider the lack of an equipotential bonding grid to be an omission as opposed to a defect. Other than the cost of copper, burying wires in the ground at the perimeter of the pool is not that hard.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

AllanJ said:


> If the concrete does not have rebar in it, is there any way to solve the problem without destroying the pool?


Some company may make a conductive adhesive to get good metal-to-concrete electrical contact.

Other things being equal a pool containing salt water will have less of a voltage gradient.

Other things being equal higher ground current equals more voltage gradient.

A voltage gradient of >1.5 volts per foot of distance can cause paralysis, so says Ray Mullin in his 13th ed. of "Electrical Wiring Residential." The OP may have had a gradient of 0.7 v in several feet.

Scale models of pool setups and surroundings could probably be built and the model could be energized with low voltages, but the scaling equations to estimate real world results for this are probably very complex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

nap said:


> I think the OP might be overwhelmed with the discussion.
> 
> sounds like OP got a raw deal from the installing electrician as well. If it were me, I would call a reputable electrical company to determine what it would take to correct all of the problems and go after the installer.
> 
> Then, when they have a proper installation, they can deal with any problems remaining.


Yes I concur with that reasoning. I believe the OP stated that his area did not require inspections. This is true to an extent and what I have noticed is that you are prone to get a raw deal in areas where inspections are not necessarily considered important. No accountability = magnet for hacks.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the problem is that connecting the concrete, or at least the ground underneath the concrete is critical . Check out 680.26. It describes what must be included in the grid.

If there is no steel in the concrete and if there was no grid conductor installed under the concrete, I do not believe the OP will be able to overcome the problem. Of course all conductive material in the pool itself must be connected and the water itself as well.

What you are trying to do is have such a low resistance between any/all of the interconnected points that they act as one unit where there can be no difference of potential (or so low it becomes moot) and as such, no current flow. If you have too much resistance from any point to another (such as water to concrete) when the swimmer is placed into that circuit as a parallel path, they will become the pathway for the current flow.


----------



## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

***gone***


----------



## sandtopia2000 (Jul 15, 2010)

*pool water and copper ion*

hello dose this pool have copper ion with the salt, copper and salt make a battery, just for fun have you tried to drain the pool and run a test with the niche bond behind the light and the dirt to see if the bond is good? look for continuity, is there battery back up on the computer in the house or radio battery. we have had some problems in the reno area with earthen discharge due to static, with soil that is heavy clay, clay holds water and conducts electricity vary well, is there ground water were your pool is built. bonding the water is simple, just bond the stainless ring on the light and or niche. is there a street light next to the pool, Wet the ground out side and around the pool (make mud) test for voltage, if there is no voltage in the mud and water out side your pool is the problem, if there is voltage in the mud? witch side have more voltage, go to that side and look for electric motors, fans, battery back ups, power pools with grounding, and test. if all fails drain the pool and fill with non salt water and test, copper erosion and salt can produce voltage due to chlorine ppm to high, the chlorine will eat the copper and make a small generator, and cause voltage.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

The OP never said if the voltage was DC or AC. 
This is the easiest test in the world to run. DC = battery effect.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

it would be nice if the OP came back and at least answered a few of the questions posed. 

rnemt140 - Last Activity: 07-12-2010 02:12 PM


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah that would be nice but I'm losing hope. Anyway glad to see your still around Speedy.

Since we are knee deep in swimming pools I briefly checked a link I saved and it appears to be decently done on the requirements for the EPBG.

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1242.pdf


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

designer-fixit said:


> i hate to say it but you mite just have to completely take out all the heating system and live with a cold pool for now. they obviously did it wrong and you cant put your kids at risk so disconnect it completely and then have it tested to make sure that all the voltage is gone. if you really need it heated that bad then run a hose from the water heater to the pool and warm it up geto style


WHAT?? :huh:


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> WHAT?? :huh:


looks like a post only for the purpose of being able to link their business.

In other words: spam but they seem to allow it here in the manner the guy posted.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I wonder if I should get a bid for him/her to come to Kansas and paint the inside of my barn??? Will need to bring scaffolding and I'm not letting the horses out....


----------



## Fira (Nov 13, 2007)

I would (look around the pool and be sure that no one can sneak up on you with in 10 seconds or less and hold onto a gate or something with one hand just in case) recommend that you take pictures of your pool, and if safely possible take pictures of other stuff about the pool and upload them (ImageShack could do good).

Be sure to put a gate if safely possible with pictoral language to not reach into the pool.

If you would like I will upload a picture here (if rules allow) and I will put one up for you and you can copy, paste, send to others etc.

<script src='http://img62.imageshack.us/shareable/?i=swimmingpoolwarning.png&p=tl' type='text/javascript'></script><noscript></noscript>

The picture will take about 20 minutes max to make.

My name is Jason  : )

Great luck getting the whole issue(s) worked out  ; )


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Actually, with a DVM, a 12 v battery, a concrete flower pot, some soil, some water and some tinfoil, junior scientists and other interested parties might be able to simulate the pool situation, with voltage gradients and the whole bit.

Don't let your wife or your neighbors see you do this.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

*Shocking pool continued*

Gentlemen,
I so apologize for the delay in updating you with my pool problem that you have so graciously talked about for what seems like forever. You have no idea how appreciative I am...I would love to place photos in this script area...So I will just tell you step by step what we have done so far....
Swimming pool built in Aug 2007 (neighbors house being built at same time) no shock originally
Open pool for summer of 2008 (Shock noted unable to find source shock from pool water to concrete and pool water to handles)
Closed pool for winter
Opened pool for 2009 ( shock noted, unbale to find c source, called electrician and elec company to find problem, no one could find problem)
Closed pool
Opened pool for 2010 (Tired of people thinking our pool was deadly) CALLED OPUS, Electric company, Pool installer, and electrican) then found you.
Have called the concrete company to findout if rebar in concrete---verified that it was
Electric comapny took us completely off electric box that sits next to our house that also feeds the community park beside us and the tornado siren. Still had 1.7 volts between wter and wet concrete.
Electric company placed 2 more ground rods off the pump motor to yard and placed blocker in the electric box in the yard. Voltage down to .74.
Placed water bonder in skimmer of pool and attached to ground of heater, pump and the water bonder....voltage to .55 on a hot sunny day.....finally gave up and wrapped electrical tape around the pool handles and have rubber mats to sit on arund the pool. You have all be so great with your responses and I have learned and read so many great electrical articles that you have posted. If you can think of anything else I will continue to watch this blog. My next step is to call the county electricl engineer or inspector and have them get ahold of the pool company and maybe they can make them repair things. If I only knew how to get my pitcures of the installation of the pool onto this sit through a URL I would I am sure blow your mind.....especially after everything you have talked about so far...Again thatnk you from a mother and Nurse of 4 little girls I appreciate your talents and knowledge.


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

*testing of water tonight*

Okay so I just took my voltage meter out and tried some suggestions from here....on the DCV at the 20 marker from wet concrete to water it reads .66
on the omhsat the 2000 mark it reads 1876
on the ACV 200 mark it read 8.9
So please help me understaND WHAT THIS ALL MEANS AND IF THERE IS ANY HELP WITH THESE READINGS???

thanks,
Stacey


----------



## rnemt140 (Jul 10, 2010)

*another note*

we do have a battery back up for our sump pump but we have disconnected it as well and still have the voltage present.

Could a satelite dish carry a charge?


----------



## SleepyDog (Jun 20, 2010)

OK, I have read a lot of the comments here. I am not an expert but from what a gather here is my 2 cents. We all know shared neutrals are a bad thing and they have been removed from the code pretty much everywhere but one place: from the POCO transformer to the service entrance. The neutral is grounded at the transformer and grounded at the service. We know the unbalanced current flows on that neutral which means some small amount of current flows along the ground as well. The OP said that the POCO "box" also feeds a community park. If that means the park comes off the same transformer there will be ground currents from its service back to the transformer as well. I would be curious to know if the pool sits between any of those sources.

Likely the house ground at the service is at a different potential than the ground at the pool. Does the pool have a sub panel? I would be curious to see what happens if the breaker to the sub is turned off and all connection wires are removed at the sub: both hots, neutral and ground. Will shocks still occur?

As for a solution, we have to get everything at the same potential which means grounding the water, ladder handles and concrete in an equipotential grid. The OP said the concrete has rebar but likely none of it is accessible to attach ground wires to. Someone posted that there is a stick-on product that can be used to ground concrete. If such a product can be found you might want to try it. It is a lot cheaper than breaking up parts of the concrete to get to the rebar.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

First of all, the voltage readings you are taking are almost meaningless. Yes, there is something there, but sticking a probe in the water is not an accurate test. 

PLEASE DO NOT use this pool until you at least have ALL the electrical violations fixed.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

SleepyDog said:


> We all know shared neutrals are a bad thing and they have been removed from the code pretty much everywhere but one place: from the POCO transformer to the service entrance.


HUH??? 
A) They are NOT a "bad" thing at all if wired properly. If (collective)you don't know how to wire properly and safely you should not touch it. 
B) They have NOT been removed from any code I know of. 
Where are you getting your information from?
Please do not make statements based on scare tactics and hearsay. 





SleepyDog said:


> The neutral is grounded at the transformer and grounded at the service. We know the unbalanced current flows on that neutral which means some small amount of current flows along the ground as well.


Again, HUH??? Current pretty much ALWAYS flows on the neutral. How do you think 120v loads work?
Current flows on the ground as well??? It should not. If it does there is a problem that should be fixed. Current on ANY ground is NOT normal and IS a problem.
Grounds are meant to carry fault current ONLY.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

If the satellite dish is plugged in somewhere and had a coax or HDMI or other feed to the pool area, then yes it could carry a charge.

I think the next step is to bond the rebar to a common "grounding wire" (if not already) at two places on opposite sides or corners of the pool. If that isn't good enough then add two more bond places for a total of four more or less equally spaced. This will of course require digging perhaps a 3x3 inch hole into the concrete at each chosen location and patching.

I am not sure what kind of wire to attach to the rebar. Experts may recommend copper despite the problems that normally accompany dissimilar metals and moisture. If something else such as a stainless steel wire is suggested instead, then at least the dissimilar metal boundary (a splice to copper wire after just a foot or two of stainless teel) will be out on the surface where it could be redone periodically if needed.

If you still have problems then I suggest the copper wires buried in the soil around the perimeter. With the rebar bonded, you could start with just two perimeter wires a foot apart (with a copper wire "ladder rung" between them every 12 inches as described earlier.)

You will have copper wires on the surface here and there to bond everything including handles together, These wires will need to be glued down with epoxy or something so they don't come loose and get tripped over.



> ... (shared neutrals) have not been removed from any code ...


Probably confused with the National Electric Code's being modified recently to no longer allow an outbuilding to be fed with hot(s) and neutral and no grounding conductor where the outbuilding had rods for grounding electrodes. *W*here the neutral was not to be shared with ground before or after the change.


----------



## SleepyDog (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't want to sidetrack this discussion since it does not help the OP but shared neutrals used to be allowed for dryers, stoves etc. Heck, back in the 1970's era code there was an exception that allowed what today we call SEU cable to be used for a stove. The neutral to an outbuilding on a 3 wire connection that used to be allowed is not a shared neutral since the neutral and ground are kept separate at the sub. There was a great article on this in either this or another thread on this type of problem from the IEEE.

I agree with everyone that that concrete has to be bonded to the home grounding system which is at the ground potential back at the service. The ground at the pool is at a slightly different potential which is causing the shocks. The problem is that I know of know easy way to do this without breaking up concrete. If anyone has a way to do that, it would certainly help the OP.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Open pool for summer of 2008 (Shock noted unable to find source shock from pool water to concrete and pool water to handles)


From your previous post which gave us very good details it appears that you have an external fault introducing a voltage gradient to the pool area. What I note is that a neutral blocker at the transformer(?) reduced the voltage by around 1 volt assuming this test was done properly. So maybe a neutral earth problem (NEV).

The bonding of pool water was required in the 2008 code cycle . And it was required mainly because of pools that have insulated walls or liners (like vinyl) and non metallic ladders. This increased the possibility for a voltage potential to exist with the water and the concrete deck. 

Note also that typically when you had concrete pool walls with reinforcement rebar and metal ladders that were bonded to the EPBG potential differences between the deck, metallic ladders and pool water rarely existed with a properly designed EPBG. Because the water was properly bonded by the metal ladder and the EPBG in the the pool walls.

So I have a few questions.

You state that a shock occurs when you touch the handles of a ladder. This implies you have a metal ladder (s). So first question ? Are the foot rungs between the handles plastic?
I ask this because it is possible that only one handle bar was bonded to the EPBG... or that none were if the rungs are metal. A simple test to see if you might be able to eliminate the shock with the ladder would be to connect both handles with a copper wire like a #10 or #8 awg and then run to an exposed bonding conductor for the EPBG and connect it.

My second question is are you also getting shocked just getting out of the pool without the use of a metal ladder or any other metal contact point? In other words can you reach out of the pool and as a result get the concrete wet and then receive a shock when you touch the concrete.

Lastly and I go back to what Speedy said you need to get the violations corrected first ...like the uf-b. 

Here is a comprehensive graphic aided overview of what your pool install should entail. This should help see what NAP and Speedy are talking about. If you notice you will see the 2 types of acceptable metal grid that needs to be around the pool ( rebar or manmade copper grid). Your metal pool ladders and metal around the pool are connected to this grid work which is then connected to all the other required bonding items. All of these connected together make up your equipotential bonding plane and if done properly you should not receive any shocks around your pool regardless of voltage gradients from electrical faults or just the always present neutral current in the earth.

http://www.ct.gov/dps/lib/dps/office_of_education_and_data_management_files/swimming_pools_2005.pdf


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

SleepyDog said:


> I don't want to sidetrack this discussion since it does not help the OP but shared neutrals used to be allowed for dryers, stoves etc. Heck, back in the 1970's era code there was an exception that allowed what today we call SEU cable to be used for a stove. The neutral to an outbuilding on a 3 wire connection that used to be allowed is not a shared neutral since the neutral and ground are kept separate at the sub. .


this is not what a shared neutral is. A shared neutral is where you have more than one circuit sharing a neutral. In other words; a multiwire branch circuit.

you are speaking more of what I would consider to be a combined neutral/EGC. I don't know if there is any industry used term for the system you are speaking of but it is not a _shared_ neutral.


----------



## gmhammes (Jan 10, 2010)

I know this topics has been beaten pretty well and i am no electricion. Maybe this has been proposed already but what would be the negative of putting a grounding rod in the ground and running a wire from it to the pool to see if the voltage drops?


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

gmhammes said:


> I know this topics has been beaten pretty well and i am no electricion. Maybe this has been proposed already but what would be the negative of putting a grounding rod in the ground and running a wire from it to the pool to see if the voltage drops?


there would be no harm is doing it but based on the suggestion, you apparently do not understand the purpose of the equipotential bonding grid (EPBG). The idea of such a grid is to attempt to bring all conductors in the area to the same potential. That means all conductors must be bonded together with a low resistance connection. Ground (both in the literal sense and the electrical sense) is not actually a concern in such a situation unless the ground (literal sense) is within a distance where a person could contact it and some conductor involved in the EPBG.

in the simplest sense;

a shock is caused when there is a difference of potential (voltage) between two points and a conductor (wet swimmer) touches those two points allowing current to flow in an attempt to equalize the electrical charge between the two points.

So, to remove that difference in potential, you bond the two points together so the charges are already equal before the swimmer touches them.

If you can bond all points within the concerned area, there will be no difference of potential between any two points within the bonded area.

Now, how they relate to some area outside of the bonded area is irrelevant (for what we are doing here) . It is only the area within the bonded area you are trying to bring to a 0 potential to any other point within the grid. Regardless of what the potential might be between any point in the bonded area and any other point outside the area is, as long as all points within the bonded area to all other points within the bonded area are at 0 potential, there can be no shock when dealing with 2 points within the bonded area.


----------



## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

Well said Nap!


----------



## gmhammes (Jan 10, 2010)

i'll bow down now... lol


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

gmhammes said:


> i'll bow down now... lol


no need. 

Ya see, you say this:



> i am no electricion.


I say; this is what I do for a living. I would hope I can bring more to the table than an admitted non-electrician.


----------



## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

I still say Bonding,Not Grounding!


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> I still say Bonding,Not Grounding!


Um, ya. That is what an equipotential *bonding* grid is all about.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

nap said:


> this is not what a shared neutral is. A shared neutral is where you have more than one circuit sharing a neutral. In other words; a multiwire branch circuit.
> 
> you are speaking more of what I would consider to be a combined neutral/EGC. I don't know if there is any industry used term for the system you are speaking of but it is not a _shared_ neutral.


Exactly. Thanks. :thumbsup:


----------

