# Help with new 220V sub panel circuit



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Greetings. I've done quite a bit of 110 wiring and some 220 but I'm a bit weak in that area. I've got a new 60 gallon 220V air compressor that is now located in my garage approximately 50 feet from the house which is where the main breaker panel is located. There is no room to add another 220 breaker or in any way add an additional separate circuit without adding a sub panel. I've purchased a two pole 30 amp breaker and matching sub panel and need to wire it into the existing main breaker panel. Most 220 circuits I've seen previously are either 3 or 4 wire configurations however the motor for my compressor is a 2 wire plus a ground setup. I've run the appropriate length of 10/2 outdoor NM wire from the compressor to the location where the sub panel will be installed. What I need to know is the connections that need to be made. There was previously a hot tub 220 circuit but it was removed when the hot tub was relocated to my sisters house however on each leg coming in from the meter there is a copper lug with a set screw that look to have been added and are not used by any other circuit. I think possibly this is where the hot tub wiring was connected but am by no means certain. What I really need to know is, since I need 220 but will have no third wire for a neutral, and I know this is how it needs to be and have read a good deal about this type of connection but can find no schematics or specific connection instructions, do I simply hook one wire from each incoming leg to each of the breaker connectors in the sub panel, and then do the same on the opposite side of the breaker using the wiring that runs out to the compressor, and just not use a neutral at all, and connect my bare ground wire to the neutral bus in the main breaker panel? Any help, additional information or diagrams will be appreciated. Comments to the effect that you can't run 220 without at least 3 wires plus a ground wire, will not, as I already know that's untrue.Here's what I'm assuming I need to do. Please feel free to correct any incorrect assumptions if I'm wrong. Thanks.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

A. What is the model number of that GE load center? What amperage?
B. What is the required ampacity of the compressor.
C. It is unlikely the compressor needs a neutral.
D. Those lugs are a modification not intended or listed by the manufacturer.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

No!!!! That is totally illegal there. i know here in my area of SC that is totally not permitted... You will also need that neutral wire as well the ground. 

Do you have a 200 amp combo on the outside of your house you can tie into?


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

section 250.142(B) of the 2011 NEC covers bonding and grounding in sub panels you MUST run 4 conductors, 2 hots, neutral, and ground, and the neutral and ground must not be bonded together in the sub panel.

Whoever told you that you only have to run 3 conductors is just flat out wrong.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah, I realize the lugs are modifications. As I said, they were used, I believe, for the circuit that fed the hot tub pump that was previously installed but no longer is. It worked fine for years. I know that doesn't mean it was correct per code but I just want this to work for now, not worried about it being a licensed installation or being able to pass an inspection. This will be a temporary situation until I can install a bigger main panel. The sub is an Eaton outdoor 70 amp main lug unit. Model is BR24L70RP. The compressor is a 15 amp. The breaker I have is a 30 amp. The compressor has no place on the pressure switch for a neutral wire, nor does the diagram on the pressure switch or motor indicate one.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

HOWEVER AS AN OPTION::: it is acceptable(allowed) to where you can swap out two single 20 amps breakers replacing with a duplex 20 amp breaker.

Then you will have the required space for the 30 amp dbl brkr.

ALL depending on the existing service with a 100 amp or 200 amp? 200 amp.. yes!


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

darkbreeze said:


> The compressor has no place on the pressure switch for a neutral wire, nor does the diagram on the pressure switch or motor indicate one.


Understood, but you still need to run one to the sub panel per the NEC, not my rule...

Also, you need to feed the panel with a double pole breaker in the main panel. Feeding it from lugs on the bus bar is not acceptable.

Think about it, you are protecting # 10 wire with the 100 or 200 amp main breaker in your panel. If something goes wrong, that sucker ain't gonna trip!

It would be like connecting 14-2 romex to a 50 amp breaker.

Very bad idea, and totally in violation of code, not to mention basic electrical safety.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Really, where would I connect them to as there is no place on the pressure switch for anything other than the two hots to be connected. This is a hardwired installation so there is no receptacle. Do I just need a neutral to the bus inside the sub panel? Seems redundant as the ground bus and neutral bus are connected in the main panel and the bus in the subpanel is already going to be connected to it via the ground. Not argueing, just asking.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

JuzRick said:


> No!!!! That is totally illegal there. i know here in my area of SC that is totally not permitted... You will also need that neutral wire as well the ground.
> 
> Do you have a 200 amp combo on the outside of your house you can tie into?


 What do you consider an A/C disconnect? It is totally permissable to install a panel for 240 volt loads only. No neutral required.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

darkbreeze said:


> Yeah, I realize the lugs are modifications. As I said, they were used, I believe, for the circuit that fed the hot tub pump that was previously installed but no longer is. It worked fine for years. I know that doesn't mean it was correct per code but I just want this to work for now, not worried about it being a licensed installation or being able to pass an inspection. This will be a temporary situation until I can install a bigger main panel. The sub is an Eaton outdoor 70 amp main lug unit. Model is BR24L70RP. The compressor is a 15 amp. The breaker I have is a 30 amp. The compressor has no place on the pressure switch for a neutral wire, nor does the diagram on the pressure switch or motor indicate one.


What is the model number of your MAIN panel? It should be a TMxxx or a TLMxxx.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Can't swap out any breakers as they are all needed for the house and existing circuits.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

darkbreeze said:


> Can't swap out any breakers as they are all needed for the house and existing circuits.


 What is the model number of the main panel?


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

TLM1212RCU on the main panel.


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

darkbreeze said:


> Really, where would I connect them to as there is no place on the pressure switch for anything other than the two hots to be connected. This is a hardwired installation so there is no receptacle. Do I just need a neutral to the bus inside the sub panel? Seems redundant as the ground bus and neutral bus are connected in the main panel and the bus in the subpanel is already going to be connected to it via the ground. Not argueing, just asking.


The sub panel neutral and ground CANNOT be bonded/connected in the sub panel. This is a major no-no.

Please look at the picture I sent earlier.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Ok, so there are two bus bars in the sub panel. So as long as I run a neutral to the neutral bus in the sub, and a ground to the ground bus in the sub, I do not need to run any neutral wires from the sub out to the compressor, correct? Thanks


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

I was kind of wondering, why is ok for the neutral and ground bus's to be bonded, connected together, in the main panel, but not in the sub panel? Just FMI.


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

Why isolate the neutral in a sub panel?...
The neutral is only bonded to ground at your service panel. At all other points throughout your house, there is no connection between the bare (or green) grounding conductor and the white neutral conductor. Under normal conditions, the grounding conductor carries no current. No current means there is no voltage drop along it, therefore anything "grounded" to this conductor is at the same potential (voltage) as ground. If you bond the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than stray currents from the neutral return could go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from this sub panel. If you isolate the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than any currents would go back to the main panel, and go to the service ground. The main panel is where the neutral and equipment ground should be bonded.
If you install a sub panel outside the building from the main panel, than you will need to drive a ground rod at this panel. A single branch circuit run to another building is not considered a sub panel.

From: http://masterslic.tripod.com/FAQ-2/18.html


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

I also wanted to just say thanks to those of you who are attempting to help me with this problem. I left messages on several other forums and several days later have received no response on any of them. So thank you for your help.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

The TLM 1212 will accept GE THQL or THQP breakers. THQL are 1" in width and THQP's are 1/2" in width. It might be possible to replace several THQL's in the main panel with THQP's thus freeing up a space for a 2 pole THQP for the compressor.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Here's a pic. You tell me, but I think everything is already reduced as far as it can go. Please let me know if I'm wrong.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

brric said:


> What do you consider an A/C disconnect? It is totally permissable to install a panel for 240 volt loads only. No neutral required.


Brric::: smart ***.. i never said install a subpanel. I asked if he had a combo panel outside he could utilize for the 30 amp brkr!


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

darkbreeze said:


> Here's a pic. You tell me, but I think everything is already reduced as far as it can go. Please let me know if I'm wrong.


 Bottom right there are 2 THQP's. Above them there are 2 THQL's. The 2 THQL's could be replaced with THQP's and a 2 pole THQP could be placed between them.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

Yes:: that can be done utilizing a 20/20 duplex brkr! Then you will have space for that 30 amp. I've done it. Learned it from a ME(Master Electrician). Passed inspections tooooo(if/when required)!!!!


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

Brric::: I will say here it is permitted. I know in some City(ies).. its not allowed. Not meaning isn't right. Some area's are stricter than others on certain situation- not saying that it is a safety violation! If pass inspection.. i consider it acceptable.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

If I read your original post correctly, this is a detached garage.
I assume it already has at least one circuit already feeding it.

You should be installing a larger subpanel and feed so that all of the garage requirements are served from the single subpanel.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

You do not have to run 4 conductors. If you use metal conduit, the conduit itself is the equipment grounding conductor and there is no need to run a ground.


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

*I know that doesn't mean it was correct per code but I just want this to work for now, not worried about it being a licensed installation or being able to pass an inspection. *

This right here tells me he's going to do what he wants.
If he has a circuit going to the garage, he can not run another!


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

darkbreeze said:


> Ok, so there are two bus bars in the sub panel. So as long as I run a neutral to the neutral bus in the sub, and a ground to the ground bus in the sub, I do not need to run any neutral wires from the sub out to the compressor, correct? Thanks


Well yes.. to have it match up. without it, the compressor wont start after plugging it in starting it.

The only exception you would have is on the ground side. the compressor will still start tho. 

I still ground it... for you just may utilize the circuit for something else in the future. You just never know!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I was reading thru on this one and I will address to the OP .,

Seince you mention you want to run the air compressour the only way you can do this in legit way is you have to ditch the exsting circuit and run a new circuit to the detached garage with new subpanel and one circuit for your air compressour and other circuits as needed in the garage.

There are few legit metholds you will have to use .,


A ) PVC conduit buried in the ground that have to be 18 inches deep and use 1.25 inch pvc with 4 conductors 3 X 6 awg conductors and 1 X10 gauge conductor ( 6 awg black, red , white and 10 awg green unless your code required the green to be #6 then do it.)

B ) Direct bural UF cable 6-3 UF cable that have to be 24 inches ( unless other depth per your local codes ) but you will need larger conduit due the 6-3 UF cable is pretty wide so therefore 1.5 inch is bare minum for riser for protection.

I rather just run all the way thru with PVC and with THHN/THWN conductors and be done with it.

Of course you will need two ground rods as well.

Again., keep the netural and ground seperated.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

JuzRick said:


> Well yes.. to have it match up. without it, the compressor wont start after plugging it in starting it.
> 
> The only exception you would have is on the ground side. the compressor will still start tho.
> 
> I still ground it... for you just may utilize the circuit for something else in the future. You just never know!


I'm confused. Why won't the compressor start?


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

> This right here tells me he's going to do what he wants.
> If he has a circuit going to the garage, he can not run another!


What are you talking about dude? Of course I have to run another circuit to the garage. I sure as hell can't use the 110 circuit that's going there now. What's up with not offering any helpful information and now only piping in to make negative and assumptive comments, exactly what is not needed. Besides, I never said I wouldn't try to be as compliant as possible, I simply meant that as long as the circuit is safe and correct per what is generally acceptable, I wasn't going to worry about crossing T's and dotting I's just to satisfy an inspection that is NOT imminent, and, that I intended to install a larger main panel at some point. Now that I know I can do some finagling with the breakers themselves, it actually becomes a moot point.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Not really, you cannot run multiple circuits to a detached structure. You could pull one multi wire branch circuit up to 20A, but anything over that, you will need a sub panel.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> I was reading thru on this one and I will address to the OP .,
> 
> Seince you mention you want to run the air compressour the only way you can do this in legit way is you have to ditch the exsting circuit and run a new circuit to the detached garage with new subpanel and one circuit for your air compressour and other circuits as needed in the garage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, not to contradict you, and I'm not sure what country you're in, but here, in Pueblo, CO, I believe you would be wrong. Just last year we had a licensed electrician add another circuit for some additional outlets to our other outbuilding and he ran completely separate cabling from what was already running to it. It was also inspected and there was no indication of it being any kind of problem. Don't know what you were intending. Did you intend to say that the existing wiring running to the garage would have to be ripped out in order to run a 220 circuit to it? If so, I'd like some other people to chime in with comments about the necessity of what he's talking about, in your geographic areas, because I find this extremely hard to believe anybody would do. Especially on a remote building. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do know they didn't make us do that before to our other outbuilding.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> What are you talking about dude? Of course I have to run another circuit to the garage. I sure as hell can't use the 110 circuit that's going there now. What's up with not offering any helpful information and now only piping in to make negative and assumptive comments, exactly what is not needed. Besides, I never said I wouldn't try to be as compliant as possible, I simply meant that as long as the circuit is safe and correct per what is generally acceptable, I wasn't going to worry about crossing T's and dotting I's just to satisfy an inspection that is NOT imminent, and, that I intended to install a larger main panel at some point. Now that I know I can do some finagling with the breakers themselves, it actually becomes a moot point.



I wrote two underline you can NOT run two seperated circuits to the detached garage at all this is a cut and dry answer there is no otherway around.

The moot point is doing it right from first time will save yourself alot of headache there.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Code states that you can only run one circuit to an out building.
Just because the electricians and inspecttors in your area do not follow code is not our problem.
You have been told by 3 electricians that you can not run another circuit to your shed, but you do not want to listen.

When people say that they do not care if it is to code, I do not help!


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Code states that you can only run one circuit to an out building.
> Just because the electricians and inspecttors in your area do not follow code is not our problem.
> You have been told by 3 electricians that you can not run another circuit to your shed, but you do not want to listen.
> 
> When people say that they do not care if it is to code, I do not help!


So what you're trying to say, is that I would have to rip out the existing 110 volt circuit currently supplying power to all lights and receptacles in the garage, the 10/2 wiring I just ran to the garage for the compressor, AND then run like a single 6/4 bundle, install a subpanel in the garage, connect each of my 110 volt circuits in the garage to alternate legs in the subpanel, and run my compressor off both legs of the subpanel. In addition to which I would need to obtain a different subpanel with enough breaker spaces to accommodate all my 110 circuits, plus my 220 circuit. Is that what you're saying?


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Yup...and install ground rods at the detached structure.


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

darkbreeze said:


> So what you're trying to say, is that I would have to rip out the existing 110 volt circuit currently supplying power to all lights and receptacles in the garage, the 10/2 wiring I just ran to the garage for the compressor, AND then run like a single 6/4 bundle, install a subpanel in the garage, connect each of my 110 volt circuits in the garage to alternate legs in the subpanel, and run my compressor off both legs of the subpanel. In addition to which I would need to obtain a different subpanel with enough breaker spaces to accommodate all my 110 circuits, plus my 220 circuit. Is that what you're saying?


That is correct.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

brric said:


> I'm confused. Why won't the compressor start?


You ******* listen. if he doesnt apply the neutral, the compressor wont start. With anything as in this situation you need your hot with neutral. Yes.. it will start without the ground- but not without a neutral!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> So what you're trying to say, is that I would have to rip out the existing 110 volt circuit currently supplying power to all lights and receptacles in the garage, the 10/2 wiring I just ran to the garage for the compressor, AND then run like a single 6/4 bundle, install a subpanel in the garage, connect each of my 110 volt circuits in the garage to alternate legs in the subpanel, and run my compressor off both legs of the subpanel. In addition to which I would need to obtain a different subpanel with enough breaker spaces to accommodate all my 110 circuits, plus my 220 circuit. Is that what you're saying?


Oui., That is correct and the other reason why is that you only need one supply to the detached building instead of mulit supplys.

With 60 amp subpanel you will have MORE than plenty power what you have there.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

JuzRick said:


> You ******* listen. if he doesnt apply the neutral, the compressor wont start. In anything you need your hot with neutral. Yes.. it will start without the ground- but not without a neutral!


Do you seriously have an electrical license? Not everything requires a neutral...AC compressors, Baseboard Heaters, Some Hot Tubs....the list can go on and on.

Here is an air compressor that does not require a neutral...
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Maxus-EX8404-Air-Compressor/p334.html


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

JuzRick said:


> You ******* listen. if he doesnt apply the neutral, the compressor wont start. With anything as in this situation you need your hot with neutral. Yes.. it will start without the ground- but not without a neutral!


And where are you thinking I should connect the neutral? Just to make sure you understand this is a 220V compressor motor. There is NOTHING on the motor or pressure switch schematics that indicate a neutral wire. They both show two hot leads and a ground. Should I just pick a place and bolt it on there or what? (Sarcasm. Friendly sarcasm.) I guess I don't know what you are indicating. Are you indicating the neutral is necessary at the compressor end of things, or at the subpanel. I double checked my A/C unit circuit it has no neutral either. Just two hots and a ground.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

JuzRick said:


> You ******* listen. if he doesnt apply the neutral, the compressor wont start. With anything as in this situation you need your hot with neutral. Yes.. it will start without the ground- but not without a neutral!


Eh., Excuse moi ., Not for *240* volts compressour motours they do NOT need netural for the useage.

The 240 volt circuit in USA/Canada side is two hot conductors but over here in European area where I am in France the 240 volts is hot to netural.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

JuzRick said:


> You ******* listen. if he doesnt apply the neutral, the compressor wont start. With anything as in this situation you need your hot with neutral. Yes.. it will start without the ground- but not without a neutral!


This is not correct. The neutral is only used to get 120. There are many 240 loads that do not utilize a neutral.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Code states that you can only run one circuit to an out building.
> Just because the electricians and inspecttors in your area do not follow code is not our problem.
> You have been told by 3 electricians that you can not run another circuit to your shed, but you do not want to listen.
> 
> When people say that they do not care if it is to code, I do not help!


Not being a smartass, but I was just told by two electricians on another forum that this is not correct and to ask you what section of NEC this violates. Thanks.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> Not being a smartass, but I was just told by two electricians on another forum that this is not correct and to ask you what section of NEC this violates. Thanks.


If you don't mind tell me which forum you ask them on this part ??

Merci,
Marc


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

darkbreeze said:


> Not being a smartass, but I was just told by two electricians on another forum that this is not correct and to ask you what section of NEC this violates. Thanks.


Not off the top of my head, and it will be tomorrow before I can look it up.
Can you tell me what forums?


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

225.30


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

*HEY YOU GUYS ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!! REFERENCE THINKING ABOUT IT. I WAS LOOKING AT IT AT ANOTHER STAND POINT. ONCE YOU CONNECT BOTH HOTS..OR NEUTRAL AS A HOT(AS ON A HOT WATER HEATER INCLUDED) ON THE DBL POLE, YES.. THE TWO ARE HOTS.. THEN NEUTRAL TO TERMINAL.. THEN GROUND TO GROUND TERMINAL, YEA.. I GOT YOU OLD HEADS(JUST JOKING). BRRIC.. U STILL A SMART BUT. K_Buz.. YOU WERE DOING WONDERFUL. DONT START JUDGING MY LICENSE.

WHENEVER YOU THINK YOUR TO EDUCATED, THATS WHEN YOU START SCREWING UP. FOR WHEN SINCE ANYONE SCORED A STRAIGHT SHOT BEFORE, OR AFTER OBTAINING THERE CREDENTIALS???? GIVE ME CREDIT---I DID CROSS EXAMINE THE FACTS- OK GUYS....

STILL APPRECIATE YOU GUYS... AS I WILL STILL BE MERGING WITH YOU GUYS ON ADDITIONAL POST--UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW UP! ))
*


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

How about a really long 220V extension cord? Is that allowed? (Smirk)


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

JuzRick said:


> *HEY YOU GUYS ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!! REFERENCE THINKING ABOUT IT. I WAS LOOKING AT IT AT ANOTHER STAND POINT. ONCE YOU CONNECT BOTH HOTS..OR NEUTRAL AS A HOT(AS ON A HOT WATER HEATER INCLUDED) ON THE DBL POLE, YES.. THE TWO ARE HOTS.. THEN NEUTRAL TO TERMINAL.. THEN GROUND TO GROUND TERMINAL, YEA.. I GOT YOU OLD HEADS(JUST JOKING). BRRIC.. U STILL A SMART BUT. K_Buz.. YOU WERE DOING WONDERFUL. DONT START JUDGING MY LICENSE.*
> 
> *WHENEVER YOU THINK YOUR TO EDUCATED, THATS WHEN YOU START SCREWING UP. FOR WHEN SINCE ANYONE SCORED A STRAIGHT SHOT BEFORE, OR AFTER OBTAINING THERE CREDENTIALS???? GIVE ME CREDIT---I DID CROSS EXAMINE THE FACTS- OK GUYS....*
> 
> *STILL APPRECIATE YOU GUYS... AS I WILL STILL BE MERGING WITH YOU GUYS ON ADDITIONAL POST--UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW UP! ))*


I didn't do one damn thing to offend you. I'm sure we'll all be looking forward with great anticipation to your future posts and insights.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> How about a really long 220V extension cord? Is that allowed? (Smirk)


That is kinda of grey area. some will say ok and some will say no.

For me I will not get too tempting with it because some peoples end up use this as perament useage.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

JuzRick said:


> *HEY YOU GUYS ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!! REFERENCE THINKING ABOUT IT. I WAS LOOKING AT IT AT ANOTHER STAND POINT. ONCE YOU CONNECT BOTH HOTS..OR NEUTRAL AS A HOT(AS ON A HOT WATER HEATER INCLUDED) ON THE DBL POLE, YES.. THE TWO ARE HOTS.. THEN NEUTRAL TO TERMINAL.. THEN GROUND TO GROUND TERMINAL, YEA.. I GOT YOU OLD HEADS(JUST JOKING). BRRIC.. U STILL A SMART BUT. K_Buz.. YOU WERE DOING WONDERFUL. DONT START JUDGING MY LICENSE.
> 
> WHENEVER YOU THINK YOUR TO EDUCATED, THATS WHEN YOU START SCREWING UP. FOR WHEN SINCE ANYONE SCORED A STRAIGHT SHOT BEFORE, OR AFTER OBTAINING THERE CREDENTIALS???? GIVE ME CREDIT---I DID CROSS EXAMINE THE FACTS- OK GUYS....
> 
> ...


Only one major qurik you have to remember any time you use the XX-2 cable ( I don't care what size it is ) if you have white conductor and used that for hot conductor you have to remark it to other colours as long it is not white ou ( or ) green. ( Just be aware I say cable not the indivual conductors in the conduit. )

Merci,
Marc


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

JuzRick:
You will get called out if you give wrong or non code compliant advice here.
Don't let it get to you, and use it to learn.

When giving advice, make sure it is not a local requirement, but is listed in the NEC.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> That is kinda of grey area. some will say ok and some will say no.
> 
> For me I will not get too tempting with it because some peoples end up use this as perament useage.
> 
> ...


I was just being facetious. I wasn't serious at all although I guess this would not violate the code, per se.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> I was just being facetious. I wasn't serious at all although I guess this would not violate the code, per se.


I can understand that question on that one and really techallywise not a code voilation right there if setup properly and put the cord away when you get done useing but I am not a strong fan have extendison cord allover the place in case someone tripped on that.

But you have to take a look out of the " box " there will be some day you will need something more powerfull items like welder or something that need hevey power useage like pretty big table saw is the other item that the bigger subpanel is a big plus to use it.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

jbfan said:


> JuzRick:
> You will get called out if you give wrong or non code compliant advice here.
> Don't let it get to you, and use it to learn.
> 
> When giving advice, make sure it is not a local requirement, but is listed in the NEC.


I comprehend that also. But still as in that one scenario as to when the inspector looks very quickly over your work and not closely- still approves "on the I know you" buddy system.. thats very screwed. In the end if something occurs its on the electrician.

Regardless.. i do my darn best to following code, its complacence. If not sure about something, still I will ask. For no matter how long anyone been operating in the industry.. its a forever learning process! NO ONES PREFECT!

I've witness everyone out of the electricians on here correcting each other. AGAIN.. I HEAR YOU THOU!!!


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

If the compressor was outside the garage, and the additional feed ran directly to the compressor and never entered the structure, would this still be in violation of the 225.30 NEC code, or is this a grey area too? Just wondering as I would like to be compliant, but I really can't afford to just take a loss on the 10/2 wiring, the existing wiring and also purchase another 75 ft of 6/4, just to use this compressor. I know a lot of compressors are left outside and then shielded from the weather so I thought maybe this would allow me to use what I have but still be compliant. Thanks.


----------



## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

brric said:


> I didn't do one damn thing to offend you. I'm sure we'll all be looking forward with great anticipation to your future posts and insights.



Hey i didnt meant to offend you either. But in one post you did responded with a sarcastic response towards me.. but i will end it right here. I'm allot to much of an adult for foolishness. Im here to develop growth in this field as everyone else. 

Regardless of what we need to respect one another vs down grading!!!


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> If the compressor was outside the garage, and the additional feed ran directly to the compressor and never entered the structure, would this still be in violation of the 225.30 NEC code, or is this a grey area too? Just wondering as I would like to be compliant, but I really can't afford to just take a loss on the 10/2 wiring, the existing wiring and also purchase another 75 ft of 6/4, just to use this compressor. I know a lot of compressors are left outside and then shielded from the weather so I thought maybe this would allow me to use what I have but still be compliant. Thanks.


IMO that is kinda in grey area but Just don't qoute me wrong I think it can be legit if you have a disconnect switch next to the outdoor compessour location it may be ok but I can not garraintee it. 

That one I have to take a closer look unless other guys can chime in more details on this one but I will speak from my French regulations., It is legit only with a disconnect switch. Do your compressour do have a thermal protection on the motour ? if not then you have to use the fused or breaker disconnect switch on that.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> IMO that is kinda in grey area but Just don't qoute me wrong I think it can be legit if you have a disconnect switch next to the outdoor compessour location it may be ok but I can not garraintee it.
> 
> That one I have to take a closer look unless other guys can chime in more details on this one but I will speak from my French regulations., It is legit only with a disconnect switch. Do your compressour do have a thermal protection on the motour ? if not then you have to use the fused or breaker disconnect switch on that.
> 
> ...


The compressor has thermal protection, and, I have no problem with installing an additional breaker or killswitch at or near the compessor. The compressor also has a shut off switch as well so that would be one breaker at the sub, one breaker at the compressor, thermal protection on the compressor AND a shut off on the pressure switch.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Code states that you can only run one circuit to an out building.
> Just because the electricians and inspecttors in your area do not follow code is not our problem.
> You have been told by 3 electricians that you can not run another circuit to your shed, but you do not want to listen.
> 
> When people say that they do not care if it is to code, I do not help!


Now I have to bust you down. Because you are in fact, wrong. As per the NEC code, 225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage...I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage. I guess 3 electricians, and no offense to ANY of you, but I guess 3 electricians can make a mistake or rather, be mistaken. Apparently it takes a NON-ELECTRICIAN to look further into this matter and figure it out. Now you know why I didn't want to listen, but I'll admit, I did think you were right for a while there until I found this.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

225.30 states (paraphrased) a branch circuit on the load side shall be supplied by only *one *feeder... unless permitted by 225.30 A thru E.

225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage... 

225.30E ... shall be permitted ... where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I disagree. I do not believe that that exception applies to different voltages derived from the same service, although it does not read that way.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I disagree. I do not believe that that exception applies to different voltages derived from the same service, although it does not read that way.


What other service could there be? Not that there are no residences that have two of them, but pretty much every residence I've ever worked on, lived in or had cause to look at has only one meter and one main panel. How could you have power derived from a separate service unless you had four lines coming in from the utility to two different main panels. The exception makes no mention of the feeder for the different voltage having to be supplied by a separate service. BTW, I've ditched the sub panel and installed six slim breakers in the main to open up two slots for use with the 30 amp 2 pole breaker meant for the compressor so all those issues with that aspect of the installation are rectified. I just need to be certain about this other area now before going any further, so I can be compliant as you all have indicated I ought to be.


----------



## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

I agree with *k buz*. The home is wired for 110/220. 110 is the product of center tapping the transformer (neutral wire.) They would not qualify for separate voltages in NEC passages quoted.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Keep in mind that these codes apply to other applications other than simply dwellings. Many commercial buildings have multiple services run to them supplying different voltages/phases.


----------



## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

darkbreeze said:


> Now I have to bust you down. Because you are in fact, wrong. As per the NEC code, 225.30D Different Characteristics. Additional feeder or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltage...I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage. I guess 3 electricians, and no offense to ANY of you, but I guess 3 electricians can make a mistake or rather, be mistaken. Apparently it takes a NON-ELECTRICIAN to look further into this matter and figure it out. Now you know why I didn't want to listen, but I'll admit, I did think you were right for a while there until I found this.


No such luck. The "different characteristics" exception is applied here (and elsewhere in the code) to different types of services, not just different connections to the same service. The garage has a 120V single phase "service". If you now feed it with a 240V "service", the old connection is just a subset of the new one - they have no different characteristics. Even if you had a 3-phase 120/240V service to the garage, you couldn't justify the separate 120V line since that's still just a reconnection of the same service. Now if you had a 2-phase service, or a 20Hz service, or even just a 480V service, then you could keep your old 120V line. The bottom line is that this exception is hardly ever applicable in residential work. It really only comes into play frequently in industrial settings.


----------



## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

darkbreeze said:


> If the compressor was outside the garage, and the additional feed ran directly to the compressor and never entered the structure, would this still be in violation of the 225.30 NEC code, or is this a grey area too? Just wondering as I would like to be compliant, but I really can't afford to just take a loss on the 10/2 wiring, the existing wiring and also purchase another 75 ft of 6/4, just to use this compressor. I know a lot of compressors are left outside and then shielded from the weather so I thought maybe this would allow me to use what I have but still be compliant. Thanks.


I like that solution. Probably need to mount a disconnect at the compressor, but that's easy enough. Big compressors are better outside the shop anyway.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> I think 220 vs 110 qualifies as different voltage


 

The key here is the term "different characteristics" NEC 225.30 a-e is a mere reflection of NEC 230.2 a-e. For a service to have different characteristics it must be of different confriguration ... a building may be supplied with a single phase 120/240 transformer as one service but the next service if an exception is met and needed and approved by the AHJ would need to have "different characteristics" and therefore be for example a 208Y120 3 phase service. The "different characteristic" being single phase vs. 3 phase. Same goes for different voltages and remember they must have different characteristics ... single phase 120 is not different in characteristic from single phase 240 as both are derived from the same transfomer. Their potential difference is different but that is as far as it goes their characteristics are identical in that both are single phase voltages coming from the same transformer. In order to have a different voltage we have to change supplies say from a single phase delta 120/240 volt transformer to a 3 phase 277/480 delta or possibly a 208Y/120 volt trnasformer. Taking note that 120 volt from the Y configuration is a different voltage characteristic than 120 volts from the delta configuration. This different voltage exception would rarily if ever be applied to a residential property unless a business/commercial operation is being used out of the detached building justifying different voltage configurations.


Point being that 120 *single phase* being different in potential from 240 volt *single phase* doesn't make it a different voltage characteristically. That is a far stretch of the intent of 225.30 (d). 

225.30 (e) is commercial or multifamily and not single family residences. The Documented Switching Procedure is only met if* all individuals* are qualified and trained to operate the switching devices for disconnecting power to the detached building.

About the only exception that would apply to a single family dwelling is the different uses part of 225.30(d). In this case for a residence you would be allowed to run a 3 way switching circuit to control outside lighting on the detached building in addition to a feeder or another branch circuit serving the interior of the detached building.

Stubbie


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

darkbreeze said:


> . BTW, I've ditched the sub panel and installed six slim breakers in the main to open up two slots for use with the 30 amp 2 pole breaker meant for the compressor so all those issues with that aspect of the installation are rectified. I just need to be certain about this other area now before going any further, so I can be compliant as you all have indicated I ought to be.


Good, way better than feeding it from those lugs on the buss bar. At least you are now protecting the wires and the circuit properly.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Well, I guess I stand corrected on the exception. I thought I had you for sure on that. Better to know for certain though I guess. I suppose I'm just going to have to put the compressor outside the building. I must say, that is a fundamentally stupid rule. It makes no sense, at least to me, that you can have, let's say, ten or fifteen different circuits from the panel branching out throughout the house, but only one to anything that is not the house. I see no justification for the rule in regards to safety as long as everything is properly configured regarding amperages, connections, support, materials and water tight joinery, it should be allowed, especially if the intended use would exceed the amperage specified for a single circuit. You could easily use two circuits to supply the needed voltage and amperage while not exceeding the rated spec for each individual branch or the overall for the main panel. Makes about as much sense as the laws requiring all children under the age of 8 to be in a car seat. I know 7 year olds that are bigger than some ten year olds and vice versa. Well, it is what it is I guess. Thanks to everybody for your help and input. I'm resigned I suppose.


----------



## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

One thing you are missing is that you would need a main disconnect for those 15 circuits. Now, I know you weren't intending to run 15 circuits, but the main would still be needed, even in your situation.


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

k_buz said:


> One thing you are missing is that you would need a main disconnect for those 15 circuits. Now, I know you weren't intending to run 15 circuits, but the main would still be needed, even in your situation.


I was referring to the main and circuits that are already there, normally. But yeah.


----------



## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

Think about it this way, in the event of fire or other emergency, you flip one main switch and all power to that building is instantly cut.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

darkbreeze said:


> Well, I guess I stand corrected on the exception. I thought I had you for sure on that. Better to know for certain though I guess. I suppose I'm just going to have to put the compressor outside the building. I must say, that is a fundamentally stupid rule. It makes no sense, at least to me, that you can have, let's say, ten or fifteen different circuits from the panel branching out throughout the house, but only one to anything that is not the house. I see no justification for the rule in regards to safety as long as everything is properly configured regarding amperages, connections, support, materials and water tight joinery, it should be allowed, especially if the intended use would exceed the amperage specified for a single circuit. You could easily use two circuits to supply the needed voltage and amperage while not exceeding the rated spec for each individual branch or the overall for the main panel. Makes about as much sense as the laws requiring all children under the age of 8 to be in a car seat. I know 7 year olds that are bigger than some ten year olds and vice versa. Well, it is what it is I guess. Thanks to everybody for your help and input. I'm resigned I suppose.


 
Remember the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) that compromises the Code Making Panels that write the National Electrical Code are not interested in design. They are interested in the *minimum safety standards* for electrical installations. As you can tell the language used by these professionals is sometimes very difficult to understand the intent without many years of experience and then you still don't understand. Many of the professional forums spend 90% of their time trying to figure out what is meant by particular article in the NEC. You simply don't know what you don't know because most electricians spend a great deal of their time in specific environments. In other words a commercial electrician or industrial electrician may be very weak in knowledge about residential requirements. I fell in that catagory for many years. 
I guess what I am leading up to is that the NFPA is concerned that everyone needs to know how to deenergize the electrical to a remote structure or building in the event of fire or emergency. In residences where you start running branch circuits and feeders every which way to a detached building it becomes difficult for emergency personnel to *know *that they have killed all power to that building. This is one of the first things the fire department is interested in when they show up on scene during a fire or some life threatening event. The NFPA could really care less how you power your detached garage or shop they just want to know how to get the electricity turned off to everything their people may come in contact. So they make "rules" to insure that will be an easier process. So they are all about safety and set the "rules" for wire ampacity .. so on and so forth.


Probably the best advice is during DIY electrical installations is to check with local authority in your building department for the correct answers. As you have already found out ...professionals can differ in opinion ... 
As you have surmised there really is nothing dangerous with what you proposed early on in this thread it just isn't considered a safe practice due to the fact it takes multiple disconnects which is not something the NEC is found of in single family environments when power is distributed to detached garages,sheds, shops etc.. 

Good luck with your project


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Project is complete. Compressor works great. All to code, except maybe the gray area of the line running to the compressor outside but I'm good with it. Thanks to all who helped.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

darkbreeze said:


> Project is complete. Compressor works great. All to code, except maybe the gray area of the line running to the compressor outside but I'm good with it. Thanks to all who helped.


Thanks for letting us know the update with the sitaution you have there.

But just remember to drain the tank more often espcally in frezzing tempture range that is crictal for good performace.

Note it is not too uncommon to see a bit of water accumated no matter what the tempture it will be so in wintertime you will have to check more often and when you get done for the day or done running the compressour drain the tank to get any water out right away.


Merci,
Marc


----------



## darkbreeze (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks Marc, but that part I've got covered. I've either owned, operated or worked in, automotive repair facilities for the last twenty years so I'm very familiar with the use of the equiptment, even with the connection and installation of the equiptment, I was just weak in the area of _getting power_ _to_ the equiptment. Thanks though. Take care.


----------

