# Power Meter Pull



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Yes, if you are into breaking the law and risking your life.
And YES, I AM serious!

Call the POCO and they will come out and do it for you.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Around here (Northern Nevada), if you need a meter pulled for any reason, just call the POCO. They'll send a troubleman out, he'll pull the meter, and when you need it back in, call them again, they come back out, test the socket (for short circuits and grouind faults), and put the meter back in. 

I've never had any of them ask for a permit, call the building department, or anything. They just do what they're asked. No charge, either. Very simple. 

Rob


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

*Pulling a meter*

Here in New York if they pull a meter they won't put it back in until the work is inspected.


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## VitaleSB (Mar 16, 2008)

Thank you for the insight... sounds simple enough to just make the call. One more thing anyone know how you can tell what the Amp rating is on a Duncan meter?


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Depending on its age, on the face there's a bunch of letters and numbers. If one of them is 'CL', that's the number of amps it's good for. If it's 'CL10' or 'CL20', then you have a larger service that uses CT's. Usually over 200 amps. Most residential meters are class (CL) 100 or 200. 

This is just the rating of the meter itself, not the rating of the service. 

Rob


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

The amp rating of the actual meter itself is totally meaningless.


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## VitaleSB (Mar 16, 2008)

Isn't the Main breaker load center suppose to be rated the same amperage as the meter? Or am I way off on that?


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

_Post removed_
_Please do not state something is a Federal crime unless you can back it up with source/more information_


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

HooKooDooKu said:


> From what I've read in other forums, pulling a meter can not only be catistrophic (if not done correctly) but is also a FEDERAL crime.


Please list your source for stating this is a FEDERAL crime


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

spark plug said:


> But if the original panel is full, you might have some issues with CTL (circuit limiting. In other words, you might overload the capacity of the bus bars and other contacts to handle the loads safely.!


Wait a minute, let me backup and ask about this a little different.

Shouldn't the 100 amp main breaker take care of this? 

In other words, ASSUMING the panel is rated for 100 amps, and the panel is protected by a 100 amp main breaker, why would you need to worry about the capacity of the bus bars and contacts?


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Please list your source for stating this is a FEDERAL crime


I tried, but I can't find the page I recently came across on the subject. I seem to recall doing some research on generators and transfer switches. I was running across posts (outside of DIY Chatroom) where people were telling others to pull their own meter. There were some responses that claimed that if you do not properly pull a meter, that it can explode, and at least one poster that claimed that is was a crime for a home-owner to pull his own meter, and that this wasn't going to only be a local or state law (therefore it would have to be something at the federal level). 

Of course it also could have been one of those "obtuse" claims... perhaps not that its a "federal" crime to remove your meter, but that a POCO could come after you if they wanted under some sort of federal fraud charges.


In any case, the obvious point is that home owners shouldn't go pulling their meters. 

From what else I've read, is sounds like many POCO will happily pull the meter for you, and do it for no charge (assuming you can wait on THEIR time table).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Pulling a meter is not a crime as far as I know (for a Pro)
Electricians do it all the time & in many areas its perfectly normal
Arc Flash is the biggest problem
As well as possibly touching the unfused service feed

I'd never try it myself & I would not recommend any Homeowner attempt it

Stealing power IS a crime

Again...what *Federal* Fraud charges
You continue to post this without ANY backup whatsover


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

HooKooDooKu said:


> Can't that be handled with a load calculation... basically ensure that we indeed are not going to need more than 100 amps?


Yes. But the average beginning DIY'er is not equipped to handle load calculations and demand factor (i.e. continuous load, etc.) and other unexpected problems that pop up. :thumbsup:!


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure you can't
> There are limits on what you can connect to the bus
> Attaching a 200a breaker on a 100a bus would violate code


I'm not going to claim that you are wrong about this... but can you site a code reference that indicates this?

I'm sincerly asking because I have been looking over some of the NEC 2008 text and can't find anything specific. 

I can find all sorts of references to making sure that nothing is down stream of an over current protection device that is rated LESS than the protection device (i.e. you can't use a 200a breaker to source a sub-panel rated for only 100a, unless the sub-panel itself provides 100a over current protection from the feeder).

But I can't find anything that says you can't have an over current protection device that is rated MORE than an upstream protection device.

From what I've read in the code, if your main panel has feed-through lugs, and those feed-through lugs are protected by the main circuit breaker, that you can feed a sub-panel from the feed-through lugs without any additional protection, so long as the sub-panel is not rated LESS than the main circuit breaker.

If I'm right about that, then using a 200a circuit breaker to tap into a 100a main panel isn't any different than using feed-through lugs.

Now I'll admit that there is most likely an L&L limitation where the manufacturer might be preventing you from placing a 200a breaker anywhere within a 100a panel. But otherwise, I can't find anything (yet) in code that would proclude the use of a 200a breaker that's already protected by a 100a main.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Pulling a meter is not a crime as far as I know
> Electricians do it all the time & in many areas its perfectly normal
> Arc Flash is the biggest problem
> As well as possibly touching the unfused service feed
> ...


Oh, I'll freely admit that I do NOT know what are the laws in regards to this. I stated that I was repeating something I read somewhere, and I'm 100% sure that what I'm saying would not put any DIYer at any risk.

I also said that I was talking about home-owners. I'm sure the laws and rules are different for "qualified personel" such as a licencesed electrician.


Or am I completely wrong and it IS legal for a home-owner to pull their own meter? (But offically NOT recomended by this forum in general)?


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Pulling a meter is not a crime as far as I know
> Electricians do it all the time & in many areas its perfectly normal
> Arc Flash is the biggest problem
> As well as possibly touching the unfused service feed
> ...


In NYC it's done routinely by licensed electricians, when the utility is too busy to come on the premises to open the meter. The electrician "Pops" the seal and records the number (they do have numbers) and nothing is made of it:yes:!


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

HooKooDooKu said:


> Or am I completely wrong and it IS legal for a home-owner to pull their own meter? (But offically NOT recomended by this forum in general)?


Without permission YES, it IS illegal. NO, I am not looking it up for anyone.

I have heard of some areas absurdly allowing DIYer and HO's to pull meters once the POCO was notified. This is JOKE IMO. :furious:


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Without permission YES, it IS illegal. NO, I am not looking it up for anyone.
> 
> I have heard of some areas absurdly allowing DIYer and HO's to pull meters once the POCO was notified. This is JOKE IMO. :furious:


You're right. Because there are two serious issues involved; a) Safety; b) Trust; A non-professional can cause untold damage by grounding out a utility-side wire that could burn down a house, since there are no household-size fuses or breakers to stop the fault current.: also, if someone is not registered with the power co. and not licensed by a Government agency, there is no accountability if there occurs theft of service.:yes:!


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

CJ if you want help with this feel free to e-mail me [email protected]


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

HooKooDooKu said:


> Oh, I'll freely admit that I do NOT know what are the laws in regards to this. I stated that I was repeating something I read somewhere


Please do not repeat what you "heard" as LAW
This is how myths are continued
We try not to post what someones brothers uncles friends cousin might have heard from his sisters aunts friend


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

HooKooDooKu said:


> I'm not going to claim that you are wrong about this... but can you site a code reference that indicates this?


Code requires you to use Panels per Mfg instructions
And every Mfg Spec I have seen has a Max rating:



> 100 amperes maximum branch circuit breaker in load centers with 125 A maximum mains rating.


You can have a 200a panel off of a 100a panel & feed it with say a 50a maybe up to a 90a breaker


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Please do not repeat what you "heard" as LAW
> This is how myths are continued
> We try not to post what someones brothers uncles friends cousin might have heard from his sisters aunts friend


Well, I was absolutly wrong... it WAS here in DIY Chatroom where it was claimed that pulling a meter was a federal crime. Here's the link, and no one there was asked to sight a reference or challenged.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/power-meter-pull-18571/


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

longbeach1125 said:


> CJ if you want help with this feel free to e-mail me [email protected]


How does this help anyone other than the OP? 
What, are you going to tell him that can't be posted here?


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yes, if you are into breaking the law and risking your life.
> And YES, I AM serious!
> 
> Call the POCO and they will come out and do it for you.


I've done it a few times. But I prefer the power Co. techs do it. And they (the utility) require installing BYPASS meter boxes on most upgrades, to protect their employees.:yes:!


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

yes it is possible i have done it countless times, but then again im an electrician, i know the risks safety wise. You would be not only exposing live cables you run the risk of having an arc flash if the panel is not shut off


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

i just meant if hes serious about doing the job, i would walk him through it step by step and possibly give him my phone number is case he ran into a jam in the middle of the job



hoodook who were you talking to??


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

longbeach1125 said:


> i just meant if hes serious about doing the job, i would walk him through it step by step and possibly give him my phone number is case he ran into a jam in the middle of the job


The point of forums like these is so an online community benefits from people's knowledge and experience. There is also safety in numbers, meaning that if someone gives questionable advice, there will be contradictory opinions to take into consideration. Trying to circumvent that so you can give advice to someone is irresponsible.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

longbeach1125 said:


> hoodook who were you talking to??


I had repeated a claim I had seen that removal of a meter was a federal crime. I was asked to sight a source. Initially I couldn't. I was fussed at for making a false claim and got a little too angry. When I got home, I found my source in my home computer's history. Turns out to be a post from this forum from about 2 years ago.

Since then, the moderator has removed both false claims and some posts where I was inappropraitely expressed myself.

It's now all old business... nothing to see... just move along.


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

secutanudu said:


> The point of forums like these is so an online community benefits from people's knowledge and experience. There is also safety in numbers, meaning that if someone gives questionable advice, there will be contradictory opinions to take into consideration. Trying to circumvent that so you can give advice to someone is irresponsible.



i dont talk to people who use the word circumvent


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

longbeach1125 said:


> yes it is possible i have done it countless times, but then again im an electrician, i know the risks safety wise. You would be not only exposing live cables you run the risk of having an arc flash if the panel is not shut off


You risk an arc flash, no matter the state of the premises wiring. Been there. Done that. You risk an arc flash ANY TIME you are near energized equipment/wiring, but meters are some of the MOST dangerous.

Mark


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

busman said:


> You risk an arc flash, no matter the state of the premises wiring. Been there. Done that. You risk an arc flash ANY TIME you are near energized equipment/wiring, but meters are some of the MOST dangerous.
> 
> Mark


What long beach 1125 means. That even when you're not shorting/grounding out any live wires, you still run the risk of an arc flash if you are disconnecting/connecting heavy loads. If you're shutting off the main breaker, you're at least avoiding THAT risk. That is the reason some utilities (at least the local utility) require installing BYPASS meter enclosures when doing a major upgrade:yes:!


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

secutanudu said:


> The point of forums like these is so an online community benefits from people's knowledge and experience. There is also safety in numbers, meaning that if someone gives questionable advice, there will be contradictory opinions to take into consideration. Trying to circumvent that so you can give advice to someone is irresponsible.


You're exaggerating a bit. Isn't the PM (Private Messaging) option available for the reason that if you want to convey a message that shouldn't go on a public forum you can avail yourself of that option.:yes::no:!


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

thats exactly what i meant thanks spark


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

Good point, I guess I am overreacting just a bit...guess I just got a bit irritated


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

Bus how are meters the most dangerous?

Bus what do you mean by arc flash? Are you talking about the spark when pulling the meter out of the socket? or are you talking about some kind of a mistake like dropping a tool in the meter and crossing phases?

U said been there done that? please elaborate
keep in mind were talking 120/240v here not high voltage


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

grab a 120 and ground and let me know if thats not high enough voltage for you


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

nec says high voltage is 600v and over, i am talking about when electricity can arc across air and blast you, you do not even need to touch it. Thats what i was asking if bus was talking about because he said "just being near energized equipment"

tpolk


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

secutanudu said:


> Good point, I guess I am overreacting just a bit...guess I just got a bit irritated


I understand where you're coming from. (I don't mean geographically). The point is, that if we have only private discussions, a/o a public forum, no benefit is derived for everyone else. And the the assurance that no wrong info. is provided:yes:!


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

longbeach1125 said:


> Bus how are meters the most dangerous?
> 
> Bus what do you mean by arc flash? Are you talking about the spark when pulling the meter out of the socket? or are you talking about some kind of a mistake like dropping a tool in the meter and crossing phases?
> 
> ...



Too tired to post the photos tonight. Any clue about available fault current? Fault clearing times? If you think 120/240 is safe from arc faults, you are clueless.

Mark


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## longbeach1125 (Feb 9, 2010)

are you saying there more dangerous than a panel or a disconnect, and why do you seem to be taking this personal? i am sure not


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

I apologize if I take this personally. I've been in an arc flash/blast in a meter enclosure. Here's the details:

1) Residential single phase 120/240V, 320/400A underground service with lever bypass meter enclosure.

2) Distance to padmount transformer about 75'.

3) Settling of underground conductors put tension on phase terminal in meter socket and cracked the plastic insulator that held the terminal. Blade of meter kept the terminal in place.

4) When I removed the meter, the terminal rotated and exploded.

5) Blinding light, face full of molten metal (I still have the safety glasses with hundreds of pieces of steel melted into the glass) and a boom so loud that my helper (around the corner) was sure he would find me dead.

6) I'm OK because that plastic insulator took about a second to give way and I was about 2-3 feet away when it went. Divine intervention in my book.

So, why do I think meters are so dangerous? The following:

1) Not designed to interrupt a circuit.

2) Always on the line side of any OCPD (other than the primary).

3) Made of glass (and have a history of exploding).

4) Almost always installed outdoors and subject to hidden corrosion damage.

But, regardless, my original statement stands. You are in danger of arc flash/blast whenever you are exposed to energized parts, period. Things that have been fine for years have a way of breaking when disturbed.

So - do I still pull meters? Yes, but I wear:

1) 20 cal/cm2 overalls and jacket.

2) Arc flash face shield.

3) Class 1 rubber gloves and leather protectors

4) Use a meter puller (to enclose the glass portion and contain/redirect an explosion).

Respectfully,

Mark


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I think that pretty much ends any DIY thought for meter removal
Get a Pro...not worth the risk, definitely not worth your life

Thread & Poll where firefighters discuss pulling a meter
63% (74 votes) would never pull a meter
24% (28 votes) only under certain conditions
http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58566

If you want to see an arc flash take a look at this demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qq7U7tFsvQ


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