# NEW DRYWALL, new addition, Need Primer



## chipraynor (Dec 20, 2010)

I've read most of these post but am still unclear on what brand to buy. 

I have new drywall installed in a finished attic and 2nd floor, a skimcoat mixes the new drywall and an old plaster home. on the 1st floor i have a mix of new drywall for tray ceilings and a bump out room ect.. mixing agin with old plaster. 

What is the best priemer out there for this. any help would be great. 

I have used the home D, kilz pemier, in the 5 gallon, and that seems to dry so quick, but does the job on a small area i did less then a yr ago. 
I've heard:
Durron
sherwin-williams
kilz

thanks,
Chip


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

if you've searched and read the posts- you have had lots of info already. If not- try it.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I would just use regular drywall primer from Sherwin-Williams. If you have a glossy surface on the old plaster you may have to use a bonding type primer in those areas. Go to a real paint store like SW or Benny Moore. The professionals there will hook you up with the right product and are glad to answer any questions you may have.


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## chipraynor (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks Gymshu, 
I plan to paint this myself. 

any other tips for primering?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

You don't HAVE to prime. Priming can accomplish several things, but make sure you need to accomplish those things that your cover coat can't accomplish before you pay for primer and do the labor.

For example, if you are going to apply 2 coats of decent quality flat paint over new drywall, I would probably not bother priming. The first coat of good quality flat paint is basically your primer, and you have no sheen issues.

Even with good quality eggshell paint, 2 coats right over drywall might work fine. Again, the first coat is essentially a primer.

They sell primer as saving you money, but that is not necessarily the case. Let's say you're painting a 16 x 13 bedroom with 8 foot ceilings. That's about 460 sf, so you'll need 2 gallons of paint for 1 coat. You will also need 2 gallons of primer. If the primer is $20 and the paint is $40, that will cost you $120.

Now if you want to put on 2 coats of just the paint, that will require 3 gallons at the same cost of $120. With good quality flat paint, you will be fine. In fact, in terms of color, you'll be better off because you just put on 2 coats of exactly the same color, for the best in hiding and covering. In fact, quite frankly, you can often put a good quality flat paint right over drywall in 1 coat and have it come out fine (my experience is mostly with SW SuperPaint in this regard). The paint manufacturers do not want you to consider this, of course. Today's high quality paints are better than old ones - and you can apply them generously if you like since they are thicker. You can roll a gallon to 320 sf, for example, instead of 350-400 sf.

When different areas of drywall (paper, joint compound, etc) have different porosities, you usually want to correct that first. This is more an issue with putting on eggshell or satin paint with the finish coat (I count Aura and Duration as eggshell - matte does not mean flat in this case.) For these and other cases, you really need a drywall sealer (the sealing part being more important than the "priming" part, depending on how you translate the meanings on primer labels.) And again, a coat of the actual paint might be able to act as that sealer.

Of course there are texture issues as well. This is especially true when a thin coat is sprayed on (even in flat paint). If you can see through to the texture difference between the drywall paper and the taped and mudded seams, it has not been done right and you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Jeff, I beg to differ about primer. In my 35 years of painting, I have seen many paint failures that were a result of NOT PRIMING new drywall. I have seen builder's flat paint used as a primer and finish coat and after several years, any time someone bumps into the wall, a ding/chunk came off the wall. I'm not saying it can't be done that way, but, over the course of a lifetime, why not ensure that your new drywall is properly sealed with a coat of primer. Most new homes require anywhere from 20-50 gallons of primer.......yes, it can add up, but over the long haul, that may be the best money you ever spend for the paint in your house.


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## chipraynor (Dec 20, 2010)

Great, thanks for the info. I am using this kilz premier primer in the attic then sw or durron build up primer in the rest of the house. Any helpful info please keep posting!


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Gymschu said:


> Jeff, I beg to differ about primer. In my 35 years of painting, I have seen many paint failures that were a result of NOT PRIMING new drywall. I have seen builder's flat paint used as a primer and finish coat and after several years, any time someone bumps into the wall, a ding/chunk came off the wall. I'm not saying it can't be done that way, but, over the course of a lifetime, why not ensure that your new drywall is properly sealed with a coat of primer. Most new homes require anywhere from 20-50 gallons of primer.......yes, it can add up, but over the long haul, that may be the best money you ever spend for the paint in your house.


I agree:thumbsup:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Jeff, I beg to differ about primer. In my 35 years of painting, I have seen many paint failures that were a result of NOT PRIMING new drywall. I have seen builder's flat paint used as a primer and finish coat and after several years, any time someone bumps into the wall, a ding/chunk came off the wall.


That's not a result of not priming, that's a result of using builder's flat paint. I specifically said you would not use that quality of paint. It may also be a result of putting on the paint too thinly or by spraying it, which does not "key" the paint into the drywall paper like rolling it on with pressure. "Keying" the paint into the drywall paper fibers is similar to properly embedding tape into joint compound, or putting mortar on a metal lathe, or using rebar in concrete. They all make the final product much stronger.

So 3 things can account for those failures:
- too thin of a coat
- too low quality of a paint
- not keying the paint into the drywall

The type of painter that does those things is trying to save money and time. By definition, the type of painter that would prepare a surface properly with the proper primer is the type of painter that would not do those things anyway.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> You don't HAVE to prime. Priming can accomplish several things, but make sure you need to accomplish those things that your cover coat can't accomplish before you pay for primer and do the labor.
> 
> For example, if you are going to apply 2 coats of decent quality flat paint over new drywall, I would probably not bother priming. The first coat of good quality flat paint is basically your primer, and you have no sheen issues.
> 
> ...


Jeff I hope your not a painter, drwaller or builder, as anyone whom does not prime new drywall is a hack. Priming of a drywall promotes adhesion, uniform color and seals the surface. I have seen to many hacks in my career whom don't prime and only use a flat as a primer which leads to paint failure and it will also take more paint to cover a un primed wall than a primed wall. A wall can be sprayed as long as its backrolled. I have never seen paint sprayed on a properly primed wall fail. Paint and primer each serve there own purpose.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

housepaintingny said:


> I have seen to many hacks in my career whom don't prime and only use a flat as a primer which leads to paint failure and it will also take more paint to cover a un primed wall than a primed wall. A wall can be sprayed as long as its backrolled. I have never seen paint sprayed on a properly primed wall fail.


The amount of paint required is not the issue. A high quality high solids paint will not "fail" unless applied incorrectly. The type of people who skip primer are the type of people who use cheap paint and apply it incorrectly - that is why the paint fails. I don't understand the relevance of your comment about backrolling sprayed paint - I said nothing to contradict that. Again, you probably have not seen paint sprayed over primer fail because the sorts of painters that prime are also the sorts of painters that apply paint correctly and use the appropriate quality paint.

You're simply posting non sequiturs here. The fact that hacks leave bad paint jobs behind proves nothing except that they're bad painters.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> The amount of paint required is not the issue. A high quality high solids paint will not "fail" unless applied incorrectly. The type of people who skip primer are the type of people who use cheap paint and apply it incorrectly - that is why the paint fails. I don't understand the relevance of your comment about backrolling sprayed paint - I said nothing to contradict that. Again, you probably have not seen paint sprayed over primer fail because the sorts of painters that prime are also the sorts of painters that apply paint correctly and use the appropriate quality paint.
> 
> You're simply posting non sequiturs here. The fact that hacks leave bad paint jobs behind proves nothing except that they're bad painters.


The bottom line is that priming is required on bare substrates and priming is a step in the prep process before applying your paint. It does not matter if your using cheap paint or premium paint with 100% acrylic binders, if you don't prime when you should you will have a problem down the road.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nothing will bond, seal and be as durable for a first coat as primer.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

housepaintingny said:


> The bottom line is that priming is required on bare substrates and priming is a step in the prep process before applying your paint. It does not matter if your using cheap paint or premium paint with 100% acrylic binders, if you don't prime when you should you will have a problem down the road.


Obviously if you don't prime when you "should" then you'll have problems. That's a tautology and goes without saying.

The point is under what conditions you really "should" prime. Priming is not necessarily required on "bare substrates". It depends on what's going on and what the substrate is. For example, polyurethane is applied directly to bare wood with no primer required.

Direct To Substrate paints have been around for years. Read this article by the Paint Quality Institute (over 3 years old!)
http://www.paintquality.com/paint-professionals/newsletter/pdfs/0308newsletter.pdf


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Nothing will bond, seal and be as durable for a first coat as primer.


This is also not really the point. For example, if you are hanging a 5x9 framed photo on your wall, a 3/8 x 5" lag screw driven into a stud will be sturdier and more durable than a picture hanger driven into only the drywall. No one would argue with that statement. But no one would argue if I said that wasn't really the point, either.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Your vocab and knowledge seems to indicate your a general contractor. I can appreciate that, but don't sell yourself off as a knowledgeable painter. The above posts regarding primer are gobbledygook, and as a man with about 25 years of day in day out experience, I find them hard to understand. Where do I find fault: Yours in red, mine in black.
You don't HAVE to prime. Priming can accomplish several things, but make sure you need to accomplish those things that your cover coat can't accomplish before you pay for primer and do the labor.

You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall. It will not bond, even when rolled. Primers penetrate. 

For example, if you are going to apply 2 coats of decent quality flat paint over new drywall, I would probably not bother priming. The first coat of good quality flat paint is basically your primer, and you have no sheen issues.
There generally are no sheen issues with flat to begin with.

Even with good quality eggshell paint, 2 coats right over drywall might work fine. Again, the first coat is essentially a primer.
Wrong. This is where you will have sheen issues. If the first coat of eggshell is used as a primer, the bare sheetrock will draw the sheen out of it, leaving it less than an eggshell. The second will consequently be called upon to finish the sealing job and it itself will sacrifice some sheen, leaving the final finish with a less than perfect sheen. I've learned this through my own work and from doing experimental test samples, something I do fairly regularly. 

They sell primer as saving you money, but that is not necessarily the case. Let's say you're painting a 16 x 13 bedroom with 8 foot ceilings. That's about 460 sf, so you'll need 2 gallons of paint for 1 coat. You will also need 2 gallons of primer. If the primer is $20 and the paint is $40, that will cost you $120. Now if you want to put on 2 coats of just the paint, that will require 3 gallons at the same cost of $120. 
This makes no sense. Since when are paint companies interested in you saving money. They sell primer because it is the fundamental element of any paint system. One prime, two finish on bare substrates has been the industry standard forever. There are exceptions, and I don't acknowledge or include the "paint and primer in one" hype. 


With good quality flat paint, you will be fine. In fact, in terms of color, you'll be better off because you just put on 2 coats of exactly the same color, for the best in hiding and covering. In fact, quite frankly, you can often put a good quality flat paint right over drywall in 1 coat and have it come out fine (my experience is mostly with SW SuperPaint in this regard). The paint manufacturers do not want you to consider this, of course. Today's high quality paints are better than old ones - and you can apply them generously if you like since they are thicker. You can roll a gallon to 320 sf, for example, instead of 350-400 sf.

You're clearly not a paint expert, nor am I, in all honesty. But, to tell a noob, as you call them, that one coat of any flat over bare drywall is fine is clearly indicative of a get er done mentality, and that is frowned upon by the pros here. One coat coverage is a hype like paint/primer in one. I have never found a paint where color and sheen fully develop with one coat, even Aura, and most especially over bare drywall. 

When different areas of drywall (paper, joint compound, etc) have different porosities, you usually want to correct that first. This is more an issue with putting on eggshell or satin paint with the finish coat (I count Aura and Duration as eggshell - matte does not mean flat in this case.) For these and other cases, you really need a drywall sealer (the sealing part being more important than the "priming" part, depending on how you translate the meanings on primer labels.) And again, a coat of the actual paint might be able to act as that sealer.

??????? The difference between a primer and primer sealer is less about what it does for and to the sheetrock than what it accomplishes for the finish coat. Both will seal drywall, but which is chosen is a function of the selected finish. A straight primer will, again, draw sheen from the finish, whereas a primer/sealer will not. Generally, I think it's just easier to not worry about which sections of the new drywall will or will not present a problem and just prime the whole damn surface. 
Of course there are texture issues as well. This is especially true when a thin coat is sprayed on (even in flat paint). If you can see through to the texture difference between the drywall paper and the taped and mudded seams, it has not been done right and you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used. 
Again, ??????. What does this mean; you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.? If it hasn't been coated with primer or finish, what has it been coated with? The issues you are talking about are generally caused by not priming, the very same advice you suggest OP doesn't need to worry about. I generally don't, and can't really, short of horrendous drywall work, determine what a ceiling is going to look like until the prime and first coat of finish are applied and dry. I stick to the tried and true, by the book, method of doing projects and rarely do I ever have issues.

Using finish as a base coat is a flawed shortcut. It's been discussed here a few times, and it's been unamiously frowned upon. In spite of what paint companies promote as paint/primer in one, it's not a generally accepted practice, and as pros we can't recommend it. Ben Moore advertises Aura as such, but the tech hotline will tell you no, you have to prime. It's marketing hype. There are a lot of things I do that experience as a pro allows me but that I can't recommend others do. I don't relish going after you here, and your opinion is certainly welcome. I just wish you wouldn't approach other's advice so dismissively and assert yourself as an authority, because you're not. 
Joe


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall. It will not bond, even when rolled. Primers penetrate.


No, you don't HAVE to. Paint will bond to drywall. Penetrating is great and desirable. But if you don't use a primer, your paint job will not necessarily fail as you guys are suggesting. There are many many paint jobs that I have seen that homeowners have done without priming that have held up just fine for the useful life of the wall. To suggest that these paint jobs WILL fail is silly and wrong.





jsheridan said:


> There generally are no sheen issues with flat to begin with.


That's what I said.




jsheridan said:


> Wrong. This is where you will have sheen issues. If the first coat of eggshell is used as a primer, the bare sheetrock will draw the sheen out of it, leaving it less than an eggshell. The second will consequently be called upon to finish the sealing job and it itself will sacrifice some sheen, leaving the final finish with a less than perfect sheen.


Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it looks fine.




jsheridan said:


> This makes no sense. Since when are paint companies interested in you saving money.


They're not, that's what I said. They're interested in selling product.



jsheridan said:


> They sell primer because it is the fundamental element of any paint system.


No, they sell primer because they make a profit by doing so. You don't seem to understand basic business principles very well.



jsheridan said:


> One prime, two finish on bare substrates has been the industry standard forever.


Yes, and at one time so were 1" mortar and lathe under tile, plaster on walls, and sawing wood with hand tools. History is not really the point, is it?



jsheridan said:


> I don't acknowledge...the "paint and primer in one" hype.


Read up on Direct To Substrate products.




jsheridan said:


> But, to tell a noob, as you call them, that one coat of any flat over bare drywall is fine is clearly indicative of a get er done mentality


Not AT ALL what I said. Shame on you.




jsheridan said:


> I have never found a paint where color and sheen fully develop with one coat, even Aura


Keep up with your experiments. Flat "sheen" does not need to "fully develop" really, does it? Aura is not flat. There are certainly times when 1 coat of a high quality flat paint going over paint in good condition and not drastically different color looks perfectly fine. Obviously candy apple red and canary yellow don't count.





jsheridan said:


> Again, ??????. What does this mean; you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.? If it hasn't been coated with primer or finish, what has it been coated with?




I have never been paid to do a paint job and neglected primer over bare drywall before the finish coat. That's because I'm being paid for a certain quality and a certain assurance of service. So when I say "I would do" such and such, it's a figure of speech, meaning I'm talking homeowners who might do their own painting. While I would never do this in a customer's home, I've done it at certain times in places I've lived, and I've seen many many examples of primer not applied to drywall before painting, and those finishes have come out perfectly fine. I've also seen many many examples of neglecting priming, and have the paint look or perform terribly.



jsheridan said:


> There are a lot of things I do that experience as a pro allows me but that I can't recommend others do.


I agree. And in a similar vein, there are a lot of things that I won't do as a pro, but I can recommend others do. Painting is not electrical, structural, or plumbing. No one is going to get hurt, and homeowners don't have to buy into industry hype.



jsheridan said:


> I just wish you wouldn't approach other's advice so dismissively and assert yourself as an authority, because you're not.


Interestingly, I might say the exact same thing to you.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall.


While you're considering the penetrating vs. keying idea, consider these 2 things.

When you apply a thinset mortar adhesive to bare drywall, why do you first "scrape" the thinset across the surface firmly with the flat part of the trowel, before spreading and leveling the thinset with the notched end? As you do this, what is occurring?

When exterior house painters applying paint to a previously painted wood sided house with a sprayer, why do they go to the trouble of brushing the paint afterward?


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Jeff, I don't know what kind of gc your are or what the quality of that work is, but I can tell your a ----. You'll recommend that someone here do something you would never do on a customer's job. You admit that by not priming the results could go either way, it's a crapshoot. Is that the kind of advice you would expect or appreciate were you a newbie going to a forum of pros. I can tell you that my results don't go either way. And, yes you did tell a noob that one coat over bare drywall will be fine. You said that one coat of flat over bare drywall should be fine, then you say that one coat can look pretty bad, which is it? Don't confuse my inability to suffer fools with anger, I'm not angry. But, I'm tired of picking your points apart, though much remains unsaid. I offer my advice to those who know little to nothing about paint/painting. I think my term of service and dedication to its pursuit allows me that privelege. My "authority" at this is conferred to me by my peers, the other pros who value the soundness and accuracy of my advice, which establishes my credibility with the true beneficiaries of this forum, the DIY'er. My authority has its limits. Who is an absolute, all knowing, total authority on every aspect of their trade? I have enough roofing/siding experience to make a buck, but I would never go into the roofing forum and even consider challenging a day to day pro. It's called deference, probably a word you've never heard. It's also called respect. It's for this reason I think you're a relatively young guy, as deference and respect for the most part have disipated with the old school. I'm tired of you, and arguing with you. And you've accomplished that all in one night.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

jeffnc said:


> While you're considering the penetrating vs. keying idea, consider these 2 things.
> 
> When you apply a thinset mortar adhesive to bare drywall, why do you first "scrape" the thinset across the surface firmly with the flat part of the trowel, before spreading and leveling the thinset with the notched end? As you do this, what is occurring?
> 
> When exterior house painters applying paint to a previously painted wood sided house with a sprayer, why do they go to the trouble of brushing the paint afterward?


I'll entertain this one last point, because here you are showing your paint ignorance perfectly. Firstly, this is not a masonry forum, and what they do with thinset has no bearing on what painters do with paint. Secondly, when a surface is sealed, as is when previously painted, there is no need to backroll/brush over any sealed surface. For whatever reason they may do that, it has nothing to do with bonding. It will be the prior sanding, use of bonding primer, or a bonding finish that will create the bond. When you stain a bare deck, or siding, the first coat, no matter how applied, must be back brushed to promote penetration, it must be brushed into the pores/grain. The second coat doesn't require such and can be applied in whatever fashion you choose, and depends on the final applicator texture you prefer. Maybe the guys who backbrush siding want/need a handbrushed look. A sprayed finish can not be touched up by brush.

Somehow, probably fault of my own, this got posted on the wrong thread, I think. The mods are rewriting history and editing out much the evening's conflict. By tomorrow, none of this will have happened and we'll all be a happy family again.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> You admit that by not priming the results could go either way, it's a crapshoot.


Something that can have 2 different outcomes does not make it a "crapshoot". Listen carefully to what I'm saying. You guys are saying if you don't prime, the paint job will fail. You're wrong. It won't necessarily fail, and it won't necessarily look bad.



jsheridan said:


> Is that the kind of advice you would expect or appreciate were you a newbie going to a forum of pros.


Exactly. I'd want some relief from industry hype, and some relief from the "it's always been done this way so do it this way."



jsheridan said:


> I can tell you that my results don't go either way.


I believe that. And it also takes more time and costs more money. Before a homeowner spends the time and spends the money, they should know the facts. You are not telling them all the facts, nor do you have the entire world's experiences stored in your head. You're telling absolutes based on incomplete experience.



jsheridan said:


> And, yes you did tell a noob that one coat over bare drywall will be fine.


No, I never said anything that simple.



Let me say again, it's quite simple. Putting a high quality flat paint directly over drywall without primer will not necessarily look bad and will not necessarily fail. In fact, in many cases it will be fine to the satisfaction of many homeowners. This is simply fact, since I know many homeowners who have done this and are satisfied with it after many years. 



And it is true that failing to use a primer on drywall will not necessarily lead to failure.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Secondly, when a surface is sealed, as is when previously painted, there is no need to backroll/brush over any sealed surface. For whatever reason they may do that, it has nothing to do with bonding.


That's incorrect. Just because it's "sealed" does not mean it's flat at teh micro level. (for sake of argument, we'll call something like a glossy polyurethane finish "flat" at the micro level. Ironically "flat" paint is very unlevel, and glossy paint is very "flat"). With wood siding, there are small nooks and crannies that do not get paint fully into them from spraying. You can visualize this at the macro level when thinking about spraying something like trim that has indentations from the routed pattern. Spray it from one angle and the paint doesn't get fully into the seems. Now think smaller, and something similar happens when spraying exterior wood siding. You can't see it, but brushing does help the paint get down into the tiny nooks and crannies better. The more it gets into the little nooks and crannies, the better the final coat will bond to the complete surface.

This doesn't mean the coating will "fail" if it's not backbrushed. Spraying might be fine. The more nooks and crannies there are, the more backbrushing might help.

This is similar to the reason paint adheres to a flat undercoat better than to a glossy undercoat. Sanding a glossy finish creates more nooks for the finish paint to bond to. Here's a microscopic view of the paint surface that was attached to a wood substrate.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/exterior/paintchip1.jpg


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Wow...

hmm...interesting discussion.

Poor Chip asked a relatively simple question about brand names...not whether to prime or not to prime. In this instance, one would be doing a great dis-service to recommend a primer NOT be used...and he's already on board with using a primer.

Chip, don't be confused with this on-going discussion. Prime. I agree with the one responder that said to use a bonding type primer if you're going over both bare drywall and painted plaster. Typical PVA drywall primers are fine for drywall, but not so fine on other substrates. The more expensive bonding primers (Kilz Premium, Bulls-Eye 123, etc.) can be used on both and provide really good results. Priming does so much more than just provide a first coat of product.

But let me address the suggestion that priming may not be necessary since some here apparently need to defend that position...Primers may contain the same components as finish products (acrylic or vinyl resin, pigment, solvent) - but not necessarily in the same ratio as a finish. For example, the pigment to vehicle ratio (PVC) is lower in primers than in finishes - which is the reason primers don't seem to hide as well - hiding has nothing to do with sealing or limiting the level of porosity in drywall - even with that, the types of pigment differ slightly from that of a finish coat (less prime pigments). Also, while the _general _description of resin may be the same as finishes (acrylic, vinyl, vinyl-acrylic, PVA), that doesn't always mean the _specific _resins are the same...currently there are over 100 different type of acrylic resins available to manufacturers, and each behaves in a slightly different way. One may be very tough and durable, necessary for good washability and stain & burnish resistance of finish products, while another may be softer, slower drying, more thermoplastic, etc. all of which will do a better job penetrating a porous surface and binding in the dusty remnants of sanded drywall - all the while providing a semi-sealed surface (foundation) that provides much better hold out of finish products so you can fully enjoy all the benefits of what the finish is actually supposed to do.

Having said all that...yes, a flat wall paint could be used on bare drywall without the use of a primer - and with proper surface prep, you shouldn't have a problem with adhesion - but you'll never realize the extent of the benefits of a quality grade finish (washability, stain resistance, mar & burnish resistance, hold out, etc.) without the use of the proper primer...and this premise is supported by virtually every paint manufacturer on the planet.

Never use a primer as a finish coat...and never use a finish coat as a primer. They are constructed to do different things...and as long as I'm already on my soap-box, walk away from these products that claim "Paint & Primer" in one. This is plain and simple marketing BS targeting products to the ignorant - or lazy - or corner cutting hacks within this industry.

Chip, take the advice of the serious responders here at this site...While many people have their personal favorites in terms of brand names, you may want to consult with your local independent paint dealer for his or her recommendation of product as well....Good luck.

Ric


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Rick, thanks for the informative post. I would disagree however with your assertion that a flat finish will be fine over bare drywall. I've had far too many experiences with finish lifting off of sheetrock painted in this way. Over the years I've known and worked with many that do it. When you say "proper surface prep" of bare drywall, other than eliminating sanding dust, what does that mean? The inability of finish to adhere to bare drywall has been something I've been told for years, by contractors and paint co reps alike, and that has been proven by experience. If it's a matter of a select few products that will, then we should say so. I certainly haven't worked with all products, but I've seen it occur with a variety of those I have.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

jsheridan said:


> Rick, thanks for the informative post. I would disagree however with your assertion that a flat finish will be fine over bare drywall. I've had far too many experiences with finish lifting off of sheetrock painted in this way. Over the years I've known and worked with many that do it. When you say "proper surface prep" of bare drywall, other than eliminating sanding dust, what does that mean? The inability of finish to adhere to bare drywall has been something I've been told for years, by contractors and paint co reps alike, and that has been proven by experience. If it's a matter of a select few products that will, then we should say so. I certainly haven't worked with all products, but I've seen it occur with a variety of those I have.


Oh come on! We both know that if you use Behr Ultra Premium Paint with Primer, it will be fine!


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

I probably mis-lead by that statement - I really didn't mean that there were cases where it'd be OK to *not* use a primer on bare drywall, my point was there would be no _incompatibility_ between a latex finish coat and drywall. The problem is, as I'm sure you're aware, is that finish paints are a pretty delicate blend of components. There is just not enough resin in a finish product to bind all pigment (primary & secondary) PLUS incorporate into the film any sanding dust which absorbs resin just as pigments do...If there were enough resin to absorb this dust and still provide good adhesion to a porous surface, you'd no longer have a flat paint. You'd have a more expensive "sheened" product (since resin is one of the more costly components), that'd dry streaked and blotchy, and be incapable of hiding drywall seams. To create an acceptable finish appearance, using this ridiculous system, would require far more coats than 1 coat primer followed by 1 or 2 coats finish. 

Sorry for the confusion...I think we're more in agreement than I may have indicated in the earlier post.


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

I'm not a pro, just a DIY type but found that if I don't prime when should, I'm gonna have problems. Conversely, if I prime whether I need to or not, I don't have problems. My relatively unimaginative solution is the rule that if it gets painted, it gets primed.... As a DIYer my time is pretty much worthless so that's not an issue. Good primer, I like Glidden Gripper, is under $20 and good paint is around $40 but I don't need to do it for a looong time.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I have "cheated" by using a flat paint as a primer........I gotta say, #1 I felt bad doing it but was instructed to do so by the GC, and #2, the finish just didn't look good to me.......maybe to the GC it was acceptable, but not to me.


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## wilsonstark (Jan 16, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> I have "cheated" by using a flat paint as a primer........I gotta say, #1 I felt bad doing it but was instructed to do so by the GC, and #2, the finish just didn't look good to me.......maybe to the GC it was acceptable, but not to me.


My house was originally finished in this way. Then a lot of it was wallpapered, and the rest left that way. You can imagine what a nightmare removed the wallpaper was, and the old painted areas chip off with heavy bumps. 

I appreciate the discussion, however. I'm finishing my first fairly serious "studs to finished" bedroom repair over the next 10 days, and I'm glad the purchase of good primer and good paint were money well spent.

Cheers all


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

To add to this discussion, if you really wanted to save a few bucks, tint the PRIMER, & apply ONE COAT of finish.......I would feel much more comfortable doing that as opposed to 2 coats of FLAT paint.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jschaben said:


> I'm not a pro, just a DIY type but found that if I don't prime when should, I'm gonna have problems. Conversely, if I prime whether I need to or not, I don't have problems.


That's a pretty good way to put it.

Priming is certainly not a problem. The problem is confusion, caused mostly by the manufacturers and stores. I actually know people who think, as you do, "prime before painting". Well you can never get into trouble this way. But you can waste time and money.

Example. Master bedroom, drywall finished properly. Drywall primed properly. Drywall finished properly with good quality paint, let's say flat (to remove the sheen variable from the argument.) 1 year later, with the room in good condition, they decide they want a new color, again in flat. "Prime before I paint." Complete waste of time.

This wouldn't even be so bad if I did it, because I get paint at a discount and I can prime that room in about 2 hours. But the homeowner spends 6 hours doing it, with the added cost of 2 gallons of primer. Not only that, but inexperienced painters are more likely to make mistakes, so you've got double the risk of a spill, overpaint, roller marks, drip marks, etc. on a job that didn't need any of it to begin with.

But as you said, in principle you can never be wrong to prime under anything that I can think of.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> To add to this discussion, if you really wanted to save a few bucks, tint the PRIMER, & apply ONE COAT of finish.......I would feel much more comfortable doing that as opposed to 2 coats of FLAT paint.


Yeah that is often the best idea. It's just that it sometimes saves a few bucks, and sometimes costs more. It only really saves when the square footage is a nice round number that matches with the spread rate of the primer and paint, or the primer costs *way* less than the paint

If you've got a 10x10x8 bedroom, then 1 gallon of $20 primer and 1 gallon of $30 paint, and Bob's your uncle - you just saved $10.

If you've got a 15x13x9 bedroom, then 2 gallons of primer (1 coat) and 2 gallons of paint (1 coat) and you just lost $10 (3 gallons of paint gives 2 coats.) Not that it's $10 poorly spent necessarily....


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Jeff, rarely do you have to prime a room that has already been painted. Only if it's a deep color like red or if it has a high gloss would you ever consider a primer on a repaint. I would never try to sell a customer on repriming his walls unless it was absolutely necessary.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Gymschu said:


> Jeff, rarely do you have to prime a room that has already been painted. Only if it's a deep color like red or if it has a high gloss would you ever consider a primer on a repaint. I would never try to sell a customer on repriming his walls unless it was absolutely necessary.


I would add to that - and this is obviously a rather extreme exception - when painted walls are so old & filthy & chalky that you just don't want to take a chance.

We bought an investment house, about 4 years ago, that was built in the early 60s. I'm pretty sure that some of the rooms had the original paint - and you can imagine what shape that paint was in. I decided that for the (approx) extra $25 per room for good primer, it was well worth it to just prime everything and be done with it. It was the right choice. The paint in all the rooms still looks as good as new.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

ok- as long as were looking at exceptions to the rule- when going to eggshell (or even matte) from builders flat it is a real good idea too.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

DrHicks said:


> I would add to that - and this is obviously a rather extreme exception - when painted walls are so old & filthy & chalky that you just don't want to take a chance.


I'm actually working on a house right now built in the 60s, with gross walls. They're getting a TSP substitute no-rinse cleaning. But that's basically like a primer, since it's a deglosser and also leaves something on the wall that paint bonds well to. Ceilings are yellowed and water stained looking, so they've gotten BIN, as has the trim.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Jeff, rarely do you have to prime a room that has already been painted. Only if it's a deep color like red or if it has a high gloss would you ever consider a primer on a repaint. I would never try to sell a customer on repriming his walls unless it was absolutely necessary.


Yeah, just letting the guy know that always priming by default is OK, but you'll be wasting your time and money sometimes.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> I'm actually working on a house right now built in the 60s, with gross walls. They're getting a TSP substitute no-rinse cleaning. But that's basically like a primer, since it's a deglosser and also leaves something on the wall that paint bonds well to. Ceilings are yellowed and water stained looking, so they've gotten BIN, as has the trim.


Yeah... In the house I was speaking of in Post #34, I ran into some weird unidentifiable stains. One was on the wall where the head of a bed had been. I think somebody spent years sleeping with his greasy hair rubbing on the wall all night every night. Bizarre & gross. Some of the other stains were beyond recognition of any kind.

Primer. Yep!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

DrHicks said:


> Bizarre & gross. Some of the other stains were beyond recognition of any kind.


Some of these older houses for sale - especially foreclosures - the mind reels imagining what might have been going on to cause those......:wacko:


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> Something that can have 2 different outcomes does not make it a "crapshoot". Listen carefully to what I'm saying. You guys are saying if you don't prime, the paint job will fail. You're wrong. It won't necessarily fail, and it won't necessarily look bad.


Then remove the probablity of it "not Necessarily" failing and go with the sure thing. The ones who will insist on priming have probably had to fix a few jobs where no primer was used, myself included.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Then remove the probablity of it "not Necessarily" failing and go with the sure thing.


Hey, do what you want. I'm just telling the truth to homeowners listening. It's a basic risk/reward calculation we make consciously or subconsciously every time we do a home improvement task. You can make your headers over doors out of 2x12s instead of 2x6s as well, to go with a "sure thing". You can put on 4 coats of finish so your color is a "sure thing". You can prime over a painted wall before painting again just to be sure. I've seen enough unprimed examples of good results to know that sometimes it's not worth priming. If I have to redo 1 out of 10 of those choices because I figured wrong, it's worth it. And don't forget priming isn't a sure thing anyway. That can go wrong too and you still might have to redo it. Maybe you like water based products, and you try to block a water stain with water based primer because the label said it would. But it didn't. You took a chance, now do it over.

But hey, do whatever you want.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

True, nothing is a sure thing, but you can stack the odds in your favor. Also, tell the homeowner that a coat of primer may cost a little more but will give you peace of mind. But re-doing it can be a huge mess with peeling paint. Redoing 1 out of 10 jobs is not a good ratio.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Also, tell the homeowner that a coat of primer may cost a little more but will give you peace of mind. Redoing 1 out of 10 jobs is not a good ratio.


When I say "homeowner", I mean the people listening here. If I'm working in a homeowner's house who is a customer, I'm not skipping the primer, as I mentioned earlier. But I've done it rooms in houses I've lived in, and I've seen the results in dozens of other peoples houses.

I was being completely arbitrary with 1 in 10, but since you went with it, it's a fantastically profitable ratio depending on what you're redoing. For example, I will often spot prime some ceiling water stains. After spot priming and painting one ceiling, I realized half the ceiling had some sort of pale water discoloration, which was hard to tell because of the crappy texture job. I had to stain block the whole ceiling and repaint. Make that mistake only once in ten and you just saved a whole bunch of time and money. I'm certainly not priming every previously painted ceiling I repaint.

If it were a risk like having to take off your finish and completely strip and start from scratch, that's probably a different calculation.


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## dougp23 (Sep 20, 2011)

No pro here, a true DIYer.

I always use a Sheetrock primer, it just seems to even out all the bad seams and awful sanding areas I tend to leave behind! Could be just my imagination.
As far as a brand goes, I don't go with anything special for drywall primer.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Jeff, if you won't do it in a customer's home, don't recommend that people do it here, period. They may not be paying, but in a sense, the readers here are our customers. If you're here as a homeowning DIY, then identify yourself as such so that people can apply the appropriate weight to your advice. If you're a pro, then act like one, and make recommendations that meet professional standards. All of this arguing for the sake of arguing about whether you have to do, or not do, something is a waste. Do you want an HO to come back here with a problem and say that this was the advice he took from you? What we could discuss and advise on a pro forum is not the same here, and arguing about what is and what isn't good advice only confuses and could come back to haunt. Step it up.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

(sigh)...My posts will always be presented from the perspective of the manufacturer because (a) I'm more closely aligned with manufacturers than with contractors, and (b) sometimes you just need to consider the manufacturers intent of a product, and the sometimes unrealistic expectations of a product performance from the consumer or end user...Don't get me wrong, I have a great respect for contractors that take their trade seriously and strive to become better, more knowledgeable applicators...those that consider themselves craftsmen in their trade and enjoy a mutually beneficial relationship with a manufacturer or supplier of their preferred products - mutually beneficial because they can learn from each other and hopefully, then, both becomes better representatives of an industry too often associated with the under-educated and immoral...

Having said all that, few things chip me off more than to hear a contractor give his "expert" advice to a homeowner based on the "success" of his own personal experiences - when his (or her) advice is in direct contrast with what the manufacturer has recommended. So what constitutes a successful paint job? ...the fact that it hasn't fallen off the wall? ...or that the paint job looks OK? Manufacturers recommend primers for a reason - the reason is so you will realize the full, intended benefits of a finish paint...in other words, the structural integrity of a better to premium grade finish is dependent on the condition or, in this case, the porosity of the substrate it's applied to. When one intentionally compromises a recommended system for whatever reason, who takes the blame when that finish doesn't perform the way it is supposed to? ...well, since you asked, it's usually the manufacturer - and the few times the painter is blamed and expected to answer for a paint job gone wrong, he (or she) will most the time give all the "credit" to the manufacturer for selling a shoddy product... then demanding labor from the manufacturer to repaint. 

Sorry for the rant...I settle paint disputes for a living. Last Friday, I was on a barn roof that had peeled within a year after application (I hate getting up on roofs). When I pointed out to the "painter" what the problem was, he first called me a "college puke"....(btw, I'm a 50-something and probably had 20 years on the guy)...then he threatened to throw me off the roof. The reason I tell that story is manufacturers make recommendations for a reason - if you want the manufacturer in your corner when a job does go south, then follow their simple instructions. The job will look better and the finish will perform more as it's expected to.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Well said Rick, thanks.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

And BTW Rick- I think it's great and very helpful to have someone from your perspective here. adds much more depth to what goes on. Thanks!
:thumbup:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ric knows paint said:


> (So what constitutes a successful paint job? ...the fact that it hasn't fallen off the wall? ...or that the paint job looks OK?


Those are exactly the right sorts of questions to ask. In fact, everyone doing a job should ask himself "what constitutes a successful job here?" to hone in on the priorities for amount of money to spend and amount of work to put in. There are times to spend more and do more, and times not to.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

dougp23 said:


> I always use a Sheetrock primer, it just seems to even out all the bad seams and awful sanding areas I tend to leave behind!


Interestingly enough, that's what a block filler does, and if that's the result you're after, you'd be better off with an extra coat of a high quality, high solids finish coat as primer than you are with a penetrating sealer. In fact that's one reason painting your wall this way can actually look better. You're nudging the drywall towards a level 5 finish.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The original questions by the OP have been answered. Please read the posting rules to refresh your mind on "treat others with respect": http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/announcements/


This thread is closed, Gary


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