# Continuous Current on Water Pipe



## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hello All,
First Time Poster- I am so glad I found this forum today. I've read through several threads and there seems to be tons of great info, but I wanted to get a little bit specific on my issue and see what some of you think. I am a mechanical engineer so I have some electrical background (changed switches/outlets etc and understand basic wiring), but I'm not too comfortable messing with the panel yet etc.

Here is the kinda brief version, and then if you want the details, you can read the rest:
My water pipe main in (from the street to my basement), has had pinhole leaks 6 times in the 2.5 years since I've moved into my townhouse. 20 year old construction, no one else in the 200 units has had this happen once to their pipes. Water company thought it could be electrical related, so we tested last year and there was stray current in the earth.

I've borrowed a clamp meter and there is current that is on my water pipe (right where it exits the basement). When the furnace (forced hot air) kicks on, I get about a 1.2A spike on the pipe. When I plug in an appliance and it's pulling a load, the current is directly additive on the waterpipe. I thought it was a specific outlet, but I plugged a vacuum in about 10 different outlets in the house, and every time I see a spike of about 1.5A on the water pipe when it turns on.
The ground wire that is clamped to the water pipe was loose, and has been since tightened, but still the current goes all on the water pipe and none on the ground wire.

I've had an electrician check my panel and he said everything looked good there. Tightened everything up etc. We thought it was a neutral touching a ground wire somewhere in an outlet, but when it happens for every outlet, we thought it would be a faulty neutral return (from my panel to the transformer across the street. Wiring is underground. Had Con Edison (my electric provider) check it out and I replicated the issue for them, they did some tests and had said it was a faulty neutral so they put a shunt up while they waited to do permanent repairs (said they were going to dig and fix). Now, they tell me it's fixed, but they did no digging. 

Current still exists on the water pipe when either the furnace goes on, or when I plug in anything. 

a) What is going on?! How do I fix this??
b) If the ground is constantly taking current, does that make sense that it could act as a catalyst to cause the copper pipes to corrode, and thus keep getting pinhole breaks? FYI I had 3 in December this year, and that kind of kicked this into high gear. I had thought that A/C current shouldn't cause corrosion- only DC. Or is it possible that voltage is arcing to the pipe and causing a sudden pinhole break?
//////////////

*Some more details:*
We know the water pipe gets a leak when I hear a hissing noise in the basement. I currently have a leak but the town is waiting to dig it up until I get this electrical issue fixed. They want to install a dielectric union on the water pipe between their main and my pipe. This makes me nervous because Con Edison told me our zone is coded so that the water pipe is the primary ground. So they would break this path, and thus where would my ground go? The electrician said he could put in 2 more ground rods to make sure that I have a strong ground in place if they do this. I think this is a good idea, but is more a safety backup rather than fixing the problem.

The leaks always seem to show up when it gets cold out, but I don't think they are caused by freezing (since they are 4ft underground). My thoughts are that the furnace circuit is somehow bad and once that starts turning on, it accelerates the process, or starts creating that constant current on the water pipe, and maybe this stresses it till it pops.

I have replaced switches/outlets in the townhouse, as well as a few light fixtures, but I'm pretty positive I know what I'm doing and wired everything correctly. Pretty much one at a time, and just copy the previous wiring. I also do not think I caused this because i found out it happened before I moved in. Also all the lights/switches work, and I used a polarity tester and never showed anything flipped etc. Also there never is any dim/flickering lights or weird situations where the power seems not to be full.

I tried to isolate the circuit by testing different combinations on the breaker. That is how I found out the when the heat goes on, the current always spikes. I also so that when the drier was on, I get a spike, which then led me to test many appliances. Pretty much when anything goes on or is plugged in, and is pulling a load, that amperage shows up on the water pipe. 
I've spoken to some EEs at work who I consider very smart. They say most likely that somewhere the neutral is bleeding to ground. 

How can I tell if this is Con Edisons responsibility (bad neutral on their side), or if it is on my side somewhere.

Hypothetically if a light fixture wire nut wasn't tight and the neutral was touching the ground somewhere, could that be the cause of this? I thought only that circuit would show the effects of the current bleed onto the ground, or are all the neutrals tied together before the panel somewhere? I'm trying to figure out how every one of my outlets in the house causes current to go on the ground. There is no way they all are wired incorrectly.


I know it's long winded, but this has been quite a stumper. The electrician thought it was a bad neutral on Con Edison's side, but I don't know if he was being lazy and didn't check something on my side. I am capable of checking every switch/outlet in the house to find the problem, but I'd love to avoid that if I don't have to as it will be time consuming and annoying with some fixtures.

Thanks a ton in advance, and looking forward to any help/insight you can share.
-Dan


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

All of the neutrals for all of the branch circuits are tied together in the panel, together with the fat copper wire (grounding electrode conductor) to the cold water pipe and the main neutral in the feed (service conductors) from the utility pole.

The current flowing through your home wiring seeks to return to the pole transformer where it came from.

There are two ways from the panel back to the pole transformer, one via the neutral in the service wires and the other via the water pipe and the earth.

There are ground rods on some if not all of the utility poles. These are connected to the transformer neutral using a shared neutral/ground wire about halfway up the utility pole. The path from your water pipe (or your ground rod) through the dirt (earth; ground) has much more resistance than the neutral wire in your service drop. So only a small amount of current, perhaps just a few milliamperes, will return to the transformer via the pipe and the earth when the neutral in the service drop is in place and in good condition.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Ok, I will type up a longer post but in a nut shell some current on a water pipe is normal however after some point it indicates a poor or open neutral connection.

How much current is normal depends on many things.

For starters, how many amps is the service? Is this over head or underground? How far away is the transformer from the house (if you know)?

Edit: You can test for an open neutral by turning off all breakers on the A or B phase but not both in addition to 240 volt loads. Plug in some space heaters and turn on lights across different circuits on the breakers that are on.

Next, measure the current on the incoming neutral vs the water pipe. If the difference is large such as more than 10% on the water bond vs the neutral something could be wrong. If more current is on the water bond then you defiantly have an open neutral. 

Next, to rule out a neighbor problem trip the main breaker. With the main tripped measure the current on the neutral and water pipe. If you have more than an amp or more than a few amps something is wrong with a neighbor's neutral or a neutral out on the line.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

AllanJ said:


> All of the neutrals for all of the branch circuits are tied together in the panel, together with the fat copper wire (grounding electrode conductor) to the cold water pipe and the main neutral in the feed (service conductors) from the utility pole.
> 
> The current flowing through your home wiring seeks to return to the pole transformer where it came from.
> 
> ...


Thank you Allan. That is what I want to tell the electric provider. A few weeks back when they were on site and determined there was a 'bad neutral'. They had flags and spray paint all over my grass to trace the line, and were supposed to dig and fix it. They arrived one morning and I went to work, and when I came back, nothing was dug up. A neighbor said they saw them sit in the truck for a few hours- then get out and walk around near some electrical access point, but definitely did not dig. Now they tell me it is fix, but they won't reveal to me what they actually did to fix it, or what the problem was in the first place...

I want to call them out and claim that the neutral is still bad and I have X, Y, and Z data to back it up. When the coffee maker, heat, toaster, and vacuum are all on, I had over 7 amps on the water pipe. I'm no expert but I believe this is very unsafe, because if anything interrupts that ground path on the water pipe, I could get major zapped touching a faucet who knows what.

Is it possible that they push back to say that my wiring is causing this? I don't see how that can be based on some of the things you and others have said, but that's why I'm here for help. 

I have a picture of my water pipe in the basement, but it's not letting me post links/images yet.

Thanks


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> Thank you Allan. That is what I want to tell the electric provider. A few weeks back when they were on site and determined there was a 'bad neutral'. They had flags and spray paint all over my grass to trace the line, and were supposed to dig and fix it. They arrived one morning and I went to work, and when I came back, nothing was dug up. A neighbor said they saw them sit in the truck for a few hours- then get out and walk around near some electrical access point, but definitely did not dig. Now they tell me it is fix, but they won't reveal to me what they actually did to fix it, or what the problem was in the first place...
> 
> I want to call them out and claim that the neutral is still bad and I have X, Y, and Z data to back it up. When the coffee maker, heat, toaster, and vacuum are all on, I had over 7 amps on the water pipe. I'm no expert but I believe this is very unsafe, because if anything interrupts that ground path on the water pipe, I could get major zapped touching a faucet who knows what.
> 
> ...


In addition to a fire. Excellent questions! 

7 amps is high, you do have a problem. Pictures of the main panel can help too. If I am not mistaken I believe you have to be over a certain number of posts to upload images.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Jump-start said:


> Ok, I will type up a longer post but in a nut shell some current on a water pipe is normal however after some point it indicates a poor or open neutral connection.
> 
> How much current is normal depends on many things.
> 
> ...


Where do you get the notion that "some current" on a water pipe is normal?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

brric said:


> Where do you get the notion that "some current" on a water pipe is normal?


Ohms law and kickoff's voltage law.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Current on a water pipe is NOT normal. Why no current on the grounding electrode conductor?
Is your service stand-alone or is there a meter pack on the building?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

brric said:


> Current on a water pipe is NOT normal. Why no current on the grounding electrode conductor?
> Is your service stand-alone or is there a meter pack on the building?


The only time it would not be normal is if the utility transformer is not connected to earth and only feeding one home, ie the neutral comes from the utility totally ungrounded. 

Current does flow on the grounding electrode conductor but often micro amps because the earth electrode is generally a high resistance. A water bond is not.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Jump-start said:


> The only time it would not be normal is if the utility transformer is not connected to earth and only feeding one home, ie the neutral comes from the utility totally ungrounded.
> 
> Current does flow on the grounding electrode conductor but often micro amps because the earth electrode is generally a high resistance. A water bond is not.


I respectfully disagree.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

brric said:


> I respectfully disagree.


Explain your reasoning and I will explain mine.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Will a 120/240 volt system operate without a grounding electrode system?

If so, where does the extra current go that you believe goes through the GES?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

brric said:


> > Will a 120/240 volt system operate without a grounding electrode system?
> 
> 
> Yes, perfectly fine.
> ...


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

Jump-start said:


> For starters, how many amps is the service? Is this over head or underground? How far away is the transformer from the house (if you know)?
> Edit: You can test for an open neutral by turning off all breakers on the A or B phase but not both in addition to 240 volt loads. Plug in some space heaters and turn on lights across different circuits on the breakers that are on.
> 
> Next, measure the current on the incoming neutral vs the water pipe. If the difference is large such as more than 10% on the water bond vs the neutral something could be wrong. If more current is on the water bond then you defiantly have an open neutral.
> ...


The service is underground, and is 150A. Will check when I get home. The transformer is across the street. I would say about 75-100ft from the transformer to my service panel.
I will try these tests tomorrow during the day and report back. Thanks!



brric said:


> Current on a water pipe is NOT normal. Why no current on the grounding electrode conductor?
> Is your service stand-alone or is there a meter pack on the building?


My service is stand-alone. It's wired/serviced just as a single-family home.

Also the units were all built 20 years ago so not relatively old.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

terps530 said:


> The service is underground, and is either 150A or 200A- I'm not positive. Will check when I get home. The transformer is across the street. I would say about 75-100ft from the transformer to my service panel.
> I will try these tests tomorrow during the day and report back. Thanks!
> 
> 
> ...


Another possible test. Turn your main breaker off. If the issue is still present, the current is coming from the street side of your water service.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

brric said:


> Another possible test. Turn your main breaker off. If the issue is still present, the current is coming from the street side of your water service.


I've tried this and I see no current on the pipe. It's only exists when there is a load turned on in my house. I'll double check tomorrow though.

Here's my basement water pipe IN, along with the ground wire. Tested points @ #1, #2, #3, and #4 and current shows up the same on all spots. Very little shows up on the ground wire itself. White part of pipe has no current on it.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> I've tried this and I see no current on the pipe. It's only exists when there is a load turned on in my house. I'll double check tomorrow though.
> 
> Here's my basement water pipe IN, along with the ground wire. Tested points @ #1, #2, #3, and #4 and current shows up the same on all spots. Very little shows up on the ground wire itself. White part of pipe has no current on it.




Home fire sprinkler system? Awesome :thumbup::thumbup: (just saying its a great investment to have in any home) 


If the current goes away with the main off then its caused by your neutral up to the home.

The ratio test is next (neutral vs the water bond).


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

It's probably a crazy idea but, since concrete is conductive, you could try insulating those stand-offs from the copper pipe.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

Judging by your picture. I'm thinking a neutral somewhere is hooked to the water pipe. Especially since you say gec hardlie has anything on it. 

Carefully. If you remove the gec that is attached to the water pipe and current is still there somewhere else is the connection. 

At that point. Maybe the boiler I believe you said. Check circuits and those neutrals to find change.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

it will take a trained electrician with a good understanding of neutral and earth systems to work out this problem.
It is not an easy DIY type fix
Please call an experienced electrician to sort it out ?
Please come back and let us know what happens ?


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

I agree. Just wanted to ad/ask. The lesser amps on the ground wire. Was that reading before the water pipe or at the jumper at the water pipe. Again. I think there is a neutral touch or connected to the water pipe in the house somewhere.

It may take an electrician to find. But if you could isolate that circuit and disconnect the neutral at the panel it should still work. I'm thinking. But as suggested. Maybe you should call an electrician.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

brric said:


> It's probably a crazy idea but, since concrete is conductive, you could try insulating those stand-offs from the copper pipe.


Your over thinking this. Slow down. Read this thread, I think it has a lot that can be learned from it :wink::


http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gec-current-69858/


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

Jump-start said:


> ....If the current goes away with the main off then its caused by your neutral up to the home.


Are you sure about that?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> Are you sure about that?


Yes, the main does not breaker the incoming neutral.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

My point is that if the issue is coming from another home tripping the main would not remove the current since it is going up into your home, through your water bond and out through your neutral. 

Now, if the break is only at the neutral to the residence then any power going out the water line would be from the residence itself since it has no other place to go. 

Current with main off and main on: problem else where. Still requires poco notification though.

Current with main on and no current with main off: broken neutral to the home. Requires poco attention.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

I would guess an imbalance in the home would cause the problem. With the main off and still current present then a utility issue. 

I would also suggest shutting breakers off one at a time and see if it disappears when any certain one is off.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> I would guess an imbalance in the home would cause the problem. With the main off and still current present then a utility issue.
> 
> I would also suggest shutting breakers off one at a time and see if it disappears when any certain one is off.


The truth is both could be utility issues, just depends where. If the break is only his neutral from the padmount to the meter than it would only effect him and produce current only with the main on. 

If the break is one a neighbors noodle, or the MGN than current would be present even with the main off.

IMO, the fact the utility has marked the area before for open noodles indicates they have an ongoing issue.


Update* I just forgot to add, OP, what ever you do not remove the water bond for testing just clamp around it. Doing so can shock or start a fire as that current will look for other paths like telephone/coaxial cables.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Lucky coincidence. Someone posted this today on ET, and I think post #9 hits the nail on the head.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/water-pipe-electrode-86697/



> If you are in an area with a metal underground water piping system that is common to a number of buildings in the same area, the metal underground water pipe is a parallel path for the grounded conductor current. In many cases the resistance of the path via the water pipe is very low. It is not uncommon to have 20% or more of the grounded conductor current flowing on the water pipe in these cases.
> 
> Often the path via the water pipe is good enough that you will not even notice if the service drop grounded conductor is open...that is unless you see that there is no current on the neutral conductor and a lot of current on the GEC that connects to the water pipe.
> 
> The other place you often find grounded conductor current is on the TV cable shield, but usually not a lot because the resistance of this parallel path is much greater than the resistance of the service grounded conductor.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

clw1963 said:


> I would guess an imbalance in the home would cause the problem. With the main off and still current present then a utility issue.
> 
> I would also suggest shutting breakers off one at a time and see if it disappears when any certain one is off.


 Yes, definitely try isolating individual breakers. It could be an open neutral on one or more of the circuits in your home (or inside an appliance) where someone has bonded the ground from a receptacle or appliance to a pipe somewhere.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

"I've tried this and I see no current on the pipe. It's only exists when there is a load turned on in my house."

This is usually enough to indicate a problem with your service line out to the pole transformer.

Here is another test.

Measure voltage at one of your duplex wall receptacles. Plug in a hair dryer and turn it on medium. Measure the voltage at the other half of the duplex receptacle. If you notice a significant change like more than 10 volts, stop. If not, switch the hair dryer to high and measure the voltage yet another time.

Less than five volts change with the hair dryer in high probably means there is no problem with your neutral. More than 10 volts of a change means you have some kind of significant problem somewhere.

Noticeable brightening of incandscent lights elsewhere in the house when you turn on the hair dryer is a sure sign of a neutral problem.

For now do not unhook the grounding electrode conductor from the water pipe while you have 120 volt equipment other than a few lights plugged in and turned on. You could create or exacerbate an imbalance that fries your equipment.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Yet another test.

Only for persons with lots of electrical experience and only if there is a utility pole on your side of the street and nearby. 

Get a long wire (#14 THHN or other single conductor will do) and first hook one end to the ground wire coming down the utility pole. Stretch the wire over to your house and down to the panel. 

Turn off your main breaker. Connect the wire to your panel neutral bus bar. Turn the main breaker back on.

If all the problems including more than a few milliamperes of current on the water pipe go away then you definitely have a problem in your service neutral.

Remove the wire after conducting the test so persons, dogs, or vehicles don't dislodge the wire from the utility pole and then the end becomes live relative to the earth.

"Will a 120/240 volt system work without a grounding electrode system?"

Yes, and correctly if all three lines -- hot, hot, neutral -- are in good condition.

"Where will the excess current go?"

With no GES, all of the neutral current normally goes out the neutral conductor in the service drop and the hot to neutral voltage remains at 120 subject to losses (voltage drop) in the wires. If the neutral is open then all the current coming in one hot conductor goes out the other. Under this abnormal and dangerous condition hot to neutral on one side can be vastly different from hot to neutral on the other side while hot to hot remains at about 240.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Have the water company install a dielectric union, problem solved... 


Current will always flow on the water pipe, it's bonded to the service neutral.... Want to do a really simple test to see if current is an issue or not? Simply remove the grounding conductor from your water pipe and try to draw an arc.....  This will truly show you have a bad neutral from your utility company.

Simply clamping on a amprobe meter to the water pipe will determine nothing...


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Im not reading this entire thread, but I doubt any issue exists at all....


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

Few things from some of the posts.



dmxtothemax said:


> it will take a trained electrician with a good understanding of neutral and earth systems to work out this problem.
> It is not an easy DIY type fix
> Please call an experienced electrician to sort it out ?
> Please come back and let us know what happens ?


I did have a trained electrician come, however him (or another I had tried a month ago) never seem to really get into it too much (i get a lot better answers on a forum here than from the guy at my house). He opened the panel, checked a bunch of test points from breaker to breaker, breaker to ground, etc. (this is where I want to brush up on my knowledge/skills so I can comfortably do this and know what to look for). He also tightened everything up at the panel, and brought the clampmeter downstairs so I can show him what I saw.

However some of it is my fault- I am an engineer, just not electrical, so I'd like to work on what I'm capable of, so that I'm not paying 1-2 electricians a ton of $$ for hours and hours of problem solving/locating the source of the problem. I should be capable to do most of that at any outlet/switches/light fixture.

I'll gladly have another electrician come back but I want to make sure it's time to fix the problem and not waste around doing things I did or I could have done.



Tom738 said:


> Yes, definitely try isolating individual breakers. It could be an open neutral on one or more of the circuits in your home (or inside an appliance) where someone has bonded the ground from a receptacle or appliance to a pipe somewhere.


I've tried this. I had a matrix of about 30 different combos of individual/group breakers. This is how I determined that the furnace was definitely a problem (everything off except furnace and I get the current on the pipe when the furnace kicks on). I should revisit this test because I did this early on before I knew the the outlets were all adding current on the pipe. I'll try it again this weekend and try to report results with certain test scenarios. Another guilty breaker was when the clothes dryer was on.



AllanJ said:


> Yet another test.
> 
> Only for persons with lots of electrical experience and only if there is a utility pole on your side of the street and nearby.
> 
> Get a long wire (#14 THHN or other single conductor will do) and first hook one end to the ground wire coming down the utility pole. Stretch the wire over to your house and down to the panel.


I believe this is what Con Edison did. They ran a shunt single conductor in the trees over the street to go directly from the transformer to behind my meter where it goes to the panel. This way they bypassed the underground neutral. They did this because they said I had a bad neutral, and that is when they flagged the ground and were supposed to permanently dig. It's frustrating because they won't tell me specifics because "it's their side so they don't have to give the details to the homeowner", which is just crazy to me. 

If they put the bypass neutral up as a temp fix, and now have since took it down but there is no sign of digging to repair the underground neutral, then how can they have fixed anything?? 



stickboy1375 said:


> Have the water company install a dielectric union, problem solved...


This is exactly what the water company wants/plans to do. I have a leak currently but they haven't dug it up to fix yet, but when they do they plan to install the dielectric union. but then the current will have to find somewhere else to go.



> Current will always flow on the water pipe, it's bonded to the service neutral.... Want to do a really simple test to see if current is an issue or not? Simply remove the grounding conductor from your water pipe and try to draw an arc.....  This will truly show you have a bad neutral from your utility company.
> Simply clamping on a amprobe meter to the water pipe will determine nothing...


 when you guys say GEC, that's grounding electrode conductor right (the copper wire attached to the water pipe)?? as i'm not a pro, drawing an arc sound scary to me.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

> Yes, definitely try isolating individual breakers. It could be an open neutral on one or more of the circuits in your home (or inside an appliance) where someone has bonded the ground from a receptacle or appliance to a pipe somewhere.


This will NOT cause issues with the main line neutral. It will cause issues only with the branch circuit neutrals of a multi wire circuit.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

After the water company installs the dielectric union, you will KNOW if you have a bad neutral... As it stands now, that water pipe if going to show current on it with a clamp on meter, its a parallel path back to your transformer... 


But if your neutral conductor is good from the transformer to your house, its a NON issue.


Bottom line, get someone that understands how electricity works to evaluate your electrical concern.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

As Stickboy has indicated, current flow on a water pipe bonded to the neutral is expected, and not by itself an issue. However, current on a metallic water pipe can definitely accelerate corrosion. 
For a comprehensive look at corrosion impacts of electrical current on metallic water pipe, try reading this http://www.nace.org/uploadedFiles/Corrosion_Central/Industries/SP016907PHMSA.pdf

Kind of a tough read, but the bottom line is that use of metallic water pipe as a parallel path ground with the utility neutral creates corrosion issues with the pipe itself. Installation of a dielectric union will isolate the pipe at the homeowner end from connection to the piping inside the house, but if the bonding wire (the GEC) remains attached to the exterior piping, you still have the risk of accelerated corrosion of the piping from the street to your house.

A lot of municipalities use plastic pipe from the street to your house, HDPE is becoming more popular, which cannot be used as a ground connection. In that case, you would bond your electrical system to the conventional two grounding rods, and the small amount of current that flows through the rods would not be noticeable, and certainly would not be a problem. You may be allowed to install grounding rods instead of the bond to the water pipe, in which case the problem would disappear (assuming the neutral from the POCO is good). That is a call for the local electrical inspector.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

The most up to date code requires the two 8' ground rods at least 6' apart connected with #6 copper wire as grounding electrode conductor to the panel neutral bus.

If there is a metal cold water pipe exiting the house underground then the up to date code requires that this be included as a grounding electrode with #4 (sometimes other sizes apply; I don't have the NEC table in front of me) to the panel neutral bus.

Although there are some requirements for bonding the gas plumbing to the grounding electrode system, the entering gas pipe is not a qualifying grounding electrode.

With a proper neutral in your service wiring there should not be "accelerated" electrical corrosion of the water pipe if you keep the GEC clamp on connection.

Without a good and proper neutral in your service wiring, installing ground rods and unhooking the water pipe will probably reduce but still leave considerable current going down the GEC. This is because (probably true that) the metal area of pipe in contact with the earth is so much greater resulting in less resistance to get through the dirt compared with the ground rods. Meanwhile imbalances in your household circuit voltages due to the lack of neutral will be greatly increased compared with now.

"I believe this is what Con Edison did. They ran a shunt single conductor in the trees over the street to go directly from the transformer to behind my meter where it goes to the panel. This way they bypassed the underground neutral. They did this because they said I had a bad neutral, and that is when they flagged the ground and were supposed to permanently dig"

When they strung the wire, did they prove that you had a bad neutral between the meter and the transformer or prove that you did not have a bad neutral over that span?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

" but then the current will have to find somewhere else to go."

The current is supposed to go on the neutral in your service drop.

The last few milliamps of current will go down the GEC and through the water pipe and into the dirt simply because that path exists.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

" but then the current will have to find somewhere else to go."

The current is supposed to go on the neutral in your service drop.

The last few milliamps of current will go down the GEC and through the water pipe and into the dirt simply because that path exists.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I have to disagree with the current the OP is experiencing on the water pipe is normal and acceptable. Anybody paying attention to the load he is placing on the system to get the readings of up to 7 amps? Sounds like a huge percentage of the load is returning on the water pipe. If you have a water pipe that has a lower resistance than the neutral, you do have a problem. 


This is indicative of a bad neutral connection. It may be a few other issues in addition but that is where I would surely pus the POCO to check into, again. 

also, notice that the OP is the only one in the neighborhood that is having problems like this? If that doesn't suggest a problem with the OP's system I don't what would.

allenJ wrote:



> The most up to date code requires the two 8' ground rods at least 6' apart connected with #6 copper wire as grounding electrode conductor to the panel neutral bus.


unless they changed it in 2014 that is not correct . There is only a need for more than one rod if a ground resistance test shows more than (I think) 35 ohms (might be 25 though, can't remember offhand). Then you drive a second rod and walk away.

but in addition to this, the most up to date code does require a CEE (concrete encased electrode) which simply put, is a tie in to the rebar in the foundation. The water pipe is also required. 

as to spacing of rods: code says NOT LESS than 6' apart. Theoretically you are served better with them being spaced further apart, in fact, twice the depth of the rod in the ground is the most effective (8 foot rod means 16' spacing) per studies I have read.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Any city water pipe will have current on it, thats exactly WHY water companies install dielectric unions, they don't want to deal with it.... It's a parallel path back to the transformer, current HAS to flow on it..... 

anyways, simply remove the GEC to the water pipe to see if your voltages change, this is the ONLY way to know if you have a degrading/compromised neutral issue...


As far as code is concerned, all new construction should have a CEE, but before that was adopted, if you had city water, you had to bond and use the water pipe as a Grounding electrode, but it also had to be supplemented by ground rods. (we just drive two because of the cost of testing for proper minimum ohms requirement. )


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> stickboy1375;1681113]Any city water pipe will have current on it, thats exactly WHY water companies install dielectric unions, they don't want to deal with it.... It's a parallel path back to the transformer, current HAS to flow on it....


. well, it doesn't have to flow on it. It flows due to the circumstances which can be alleviated. That is why the dieelectric union is a good place to start BUT that in itself may not remedy this if the ground is low resistance. It can simply "flow around" the union if the soil is conductive. It will be less but it can still flow. 





> anyways, simply remove the GEC to the water pipe to see if your voltages change, this is the ONLY way to know if you have a degrading/compromised neutral issue..


can you explain your directive?

what voltage test are you suggesting would prove out your theory?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

First things first, there is a 99% chance that nothing is wrong in the OP's scenario..... 


Secondly, current is going to flow on the water pipe, it IS bonded to the electrical service neutral and IS a parallel path back to the utilities transformer, this is known.... 


NOW, if the service neutral was to OPEN, then the water pipe would carry the unbalanced current back to the transformer and nobody would even know, if you remove the GEC from the water pipe and the utility does in fact have an open neutral, the voltages will be very odd, one leg will be abnormally high, the other leg will be abnormally low, this is all do to the service becoming a 240v series circuit... very dangerous due to fires starting from over voltage to electronics....


Now, with a degrading/compromised service neutral, you will end up with odd voltages on anything bonded to the electoral service, you will probably end up being shocked touching metal spigots, etc... The voltage will rise as the load increases... I've seen spigots with 27 volts on them, their kid took the hit, barefoot playing outside, the end result was a bad underground primary neutral conductor. 

When testing for these issues, you have to remove all the GEC's and test for voltage changes with heavy loads applied, the power company just uses an appliance called "the beast" to apply a heavy load at the meter location to determine if the neutral issue if BEFORE or AFTER the meter....


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> When testing for these issues, you have to remove all the GEC's and test for voltage changes with heavy loads applied, the power company just uses an appliance called "the beast" to apply a heavy load at the meter location to determine if the neutral issue if BEFORE or AFTER the meter....


I was there when the power company used the beast. hooked it up to the meter outside and i wasn't sure back then exactly what the readings were, but if I recalled he said it was balanced, with about an 8V loss on either side. if that makes sense


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> stickboy1375;1681281]First things first, there is a 99% chance that nothing is wrong in the OP's scenario.....


I'll have to disagree with ya on this one given the amount of current registering. 
as well, the op appears to be the only one in the neighborhood with this problem. That suggests that there is something wrong all by itself. If this was so normal and typical for his area, there would be a lot of people with pinholes in their water pipes. Maybe OP should ask neighbors if he can measure their GECs to see if they might also have a problem. 






> When testing for these issues, you have to remove all the GEC's and test for voltage changes with heavy loads applied, the power company just uses an appliance called "the beast" to apply a heavy load at the meter location to determine if the neutral issue if BEFORE or AFTER the meter....


apparently we have no beasts in my area. They usually do the; let's replace the service drop. Then we know we are good to go and it isn't our problem anymore.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

Unless its underground service. It may be direct buried judging by the fact there were locator marks.

Beast are just handy equipment. Anything that will load one side or the other with a set of clip-ons works just as well.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Most likely somewhere in the house, there is an outlet with a Bootlegged Ground (Neutral connected to ground screw, or Neutral & ground wires touching, due to missing insulation on a Neutral wire).


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

nap said:


> I'll have to disagree with ya on this one given the *amount of current registering*.
> as well, the op appears to be the only one in the neighborhood with this problem. That suggests that there is something wrong all by itself. If this was so normal and typical for his area, there would be a lot of people with pinholes in their water pipes. Maybe OP should ask neighbors if he can measure their GECs to see if they might also have a problem.



Whats acceptable? Define this. 

The water main is in parallel with the neutral conductor, the current doesn't care which path it uses...


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

I've reread the ops replies. I say call power company again and say your still having a problem. It's free for them to come out. 

Maybe they found a bad connection. Maybe they took voltage readings and found to be ok. Or maybe just a lazy crew. It happens. 

Some accompanying voltage readings would help. Do they swing high and low?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> I've reread the ops replies. I say call power company again and say your still having a problem. It's free for them to come out.
> 
> Maybe they found a bad connection. Maybe they took voltage readings and found to be ok. Or maybe just a lazy crew. It happens.
> 
> Some accompanying voltage readings would help. Do they swing high and low?




I would look for other signs to signify a issue other than some home owner doing random readings.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> Whats acceptable? Define this.
> 
> The water main is in parallel with the neutral conductor, the current doesn't care which path it uses...


depends on the totality of the circumstances and facts.


the use of unacceptable is based on an assumed low power load being applied. My vacuum cleaner claims it draws 15 amps. If a similar load was used, that would mean the resistance in the water pipe path and the designed return path were nearly equal. I have a problem with that, especially that there is likely to be a part of the pipe based return path that is simply "through the ground".


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> I would look for other signs to signify a issue other than some home owner doing random readings.


there are other signs (apparently); the OP is the only customer in the area with the water pipe problem. If it was typical and normal for the area, one would have to believe more people would be having problems with their water main. 


that is also why I suggested OP knock on some doors and ask if he can clamp their GEC's :laughing:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

nap said:


> depends on the totality of the circumstances and facts.
> 
> 
> the use of unacceptable is based on an assumed low power load being applied. My vacuum cleaner claims it draws 15 amps. If a similar load was used, that would mean the resistance in the water pipe path and the designed return path were nearly equal. I have a problem with that, especially that there is likely to be a part of the pipe based return path that is simply "through the ground".




If you have two houses on a city water, and sharing the same transformer, the current will flow from house #1 water, to house #2 water, through the panel main bonding jumper back to the transformer.

I dont understand the "Through the ground" comment... they are solidly connected.

This is the EXACT reason that water companies install dielectric unions, they don't want to put their employees in danger from stray current with open neutrals, the problem goes undiscovered until a pipe is cut and a person completes the circuit.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Have the water company install a dielectric union, problem solved...
> 
> 
> Current will always flow on the water pipe, it's bonded to the service neutral.... Want to do a really simple test to see if current is an issue or not? Simply remove the grounding conductor from your water pipe and try to draw an arc.....  This will truly show you have a bad neutral from your utility company.
> ...




DO NOT DO THAT... at least the OP anyways. Chances are his Cox and phone cables are grounded through the same grounding electrode conductor, so opening the water bond would put all the current on the shields to the point they would melt, even catch fire.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> I would look for other signs to signify a issue other than some home owner doing random readings.


I'm only going on my experience from the utility side and what the OP has reported. I wouldn't hesitate to send a service crew out to take readings. I would advise using the beast of burden and document what the results were.
At that point if the readings are acceptable, the homeowner could work to resolve it. Let the water co come in and repair as stated. 
Recheck the electric to verify all is good.
Edit- If there is a pullbox on his side of the street, I would do as AllanJ suggested. Run a #8 temp neutral and see if it dissappears.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> If you have two houses on a city water, and sharing the same transformer, the current will flow from house #1 water, to house #2 water, through the panel main bonding jumper back to the transformer.
> 
> I dont understand the "Through the ground" comment... they are solidly connected.
> 
> This is the EXACT reason that water companies install dielectric unions, they don't want to put their employees in danger from stray current with open neutrals, the problem goes undiscovered until a pipe is cut and a person completes the circuit.



as homer would say: d'oh

don't know where my mind is. My error. I'll not bother embarrassing myself any further trying to explain where my mind was. 




so, how about this:

OP turns off everything except for loads on one leg or the other with no 240 volt loads. Measures both legs and GEC. I would be interested in seeing how much of the return is on the water pipe. I am just concerned that the load on the water pipe is too great (percentage wise) to be normal.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> there are other signs (apparently); the OP is the only customer in the area with the water pipe problem. If it was typical and normal for the area, one would have to believe more people would be having problems with their water main.
> 
> 
> that is also why I suggested OP knock on some doors and ask if he can clamp their GEC's :laughing:




Not all water pipes are only in contact with soil. Some are all metal which means the neighbor's water bond is one copper pipe (electrical pathway) to your water bond. Its no different then if I ran a #8cu THHN conductor from your neutral buss bar to the neighbors neutral buss bar.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Jump-start said:


> Not all water pipes are only in contact with soil. Some are all metal which means the neighbor's water bond is one copper pipe (electrical pathway) to your water bond. Its no different then if I ran a #8cu THHN conductor from your neutral buss bar to the neighbors neutral buss bar.


Yes, I know


just ignore me tonight. my brain has failed and is currently rebooting. Until reboot is complete you may experience garbled and unintelligible ramblings.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> Yes, I know
> 
> 
> just ignore me tonight. my brain has failed and is currently rebooting. Until reboot is complete you may experience garbled and unintelligible ramblings.




Your fine  You should see me on a brain fart :laughing:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stickboy1375 said:


> Whats acceptable? Define this.
> 
> The water main is in parallel with the neutral conductor, the current doesn't care which path it uses...


Stick...... Your point is well taken......

BUT (from a practical standpoint...ie not code) I think you will agrree, the water service was never intended to serve as a parrellel service neutral....

and as such, in this pecular situation of apparently very low resistance in the water pipe system, that grounding to the water pipe is causing damage with its current load and deteriorating the water system (as Dan points out).

So.... code aside... would you not agree that a practical solution might be to disconnect the GEC to water bond (or a diaelctic at the house entrance and of course assuming service neutral is fine).

It seems that little would be lost/jeopardized in the lightening/spike protection of the grounding system verse the rather extensive pipe deteriration issues the OP is experiencing. 

Just a thought for discussion/argument/opinions.

Best

(PS: I guess my definition of acceptable would be "a load that is less than enough to cause significant pipe deterioration".


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Stick...... Your point is well taken......
> 
> BUT (from a practical standpoint...ie not code) I think you will agrree, the water service was never intended to serve as a parrellel service neutral....
> 
> and as such, in this pecular situation of apparently very low resistance in the water pipe system, that grounding to the water pipe is causing damage with its current load and deteriorating the water system (as Dan points out).


Water companies hate the fact that the NEC requires us to bond to the water pipe, and of course it was never intended to be a parallel service neutral, it's for lightning, and other high voltage issues... 

as far as the deteriorating water pipe, it could be anything from minerals to poor pipe manufacturing, but a dielectric union will solve any current issues...


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> DO NOT DO THAT... at least the OP anyways. Chances are his Cox and phone cables are grounded through the same grounding electrode conductor, so opening the water bond would put all the current on the shields to the point they would melt, even catch fire.


Eh, i know, I shouldn't have wrote that, but I meant it in jest to see if a problem actually existed... In my mind, I think its just another case of misunderstanding what they think they are seeing.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

get some #6 bare copper and bond your water pipe from where it exits your home back up the the service panel. this should significantly reduce electrical current on the pipe. poco should come verify that their neutral is terminated good and that there is no corrosion (likely aluminum feeding your panel from poco).


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Water companies hate the fact that the NEC requires us to bond to the water pipe, and of course it was never intended to be a parallel service neutral, it's for lightning, and other high voltage issues...
> 
> as far as the deteriorating water pipe, it could be anything from minerals to poor pipe manufacturing, but a dielectric union will solve any current issues...


My understanding is that DC corrodes more than AC, so could I assume that half wave rectification or harmonics could be playing a role? Just wondering, Im kind of clueless on that. 

I get you on the water company gripes. To be honest even if we did not bond the main water line current would still get onto it via water using appliances with an EGC like a dishwasher. 

What the NEC should require is TN-S type earthing where ground and neutral are separate all the way to the source and the NESC should require POCOs not to interconnect primary to secondary neutrals like in California. It would solve a lot of headaches while having the safety benefits bonding to water pipes give.


IMO I would do as you say: Have the OP call the POCO and have the meter pulled while a load test is conducted. In addition to explaining the issue so they could determine if its normal stray current or a broken MGN.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

A technical IEEE publication on "normal" stray current:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ci.punta-gorda.fl.us%2FAgendaPublic%2FAttachmentViewer.aspx%3FAttachmentID%3D8905%26ItemID%3D6358&ei=LLPNVPGhH_eBsQTx3IDwDg&usg=AFQjCNEymZrpKDxnE0yQvEat5Uerzdmg_Q&sig2=W_QntoPptzw5WS-N45tMfA&bvm=bv.85076809,d.cWc


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

terps530 said:


> I was there when the power company used the beast. hooked it up to the meter outside and i wasn't sure back then exactly what the readings were, but if I recalled he said it was balanced, with about an 8V loss on either side. if that makes sense


Missed this post. 

8v is too much. IMHO. +/- 5% of 120 is the general standard I've seen from utilities. 

If one side goes up 8v and the other goes down 8v.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> get some #6 bare copper and bond your water pipe from where it exits your home back up the the service panel. this should significantly reduce electrical current on the pipe. poco should come verify that their neutral is terminated good and that there is no corrosion (likely aluminum feeding your panel from poco).


This will reduce current on the plumbing inside the house but will do nothing to reduce current on the underground portion of the pipe which latter comprises the grounding electrode.

In the past couple of days have you yet noticed any situations when voltage increased at any points in your electrical system when a significant load such as a hair dryer was turned on. Breaker screw to neutral bus bar (hot to neutral) is a good place to include in your measurements.

If a dielectric union is known to exist (even recently installed) just outside the house where the cold water pipe exits then the cold water pipe no longer qualifies as a grounding electrode and any fat copper wires clamped to the cold water plumbing become bonding jumpers (to protect plumbing up in the house) instead of grounding electrode conductors.

If the insulation on a buried hot wire is compromised perhaps by a rat or a woodchuck, current can flow through the dirt to water pipes, accelerating corrosion of the latter. This is a fault creating a short circuit, although not enough fault current might flow to trip any breakers such as up on a utility pole. Current on a water pipe or grounding electrode conductor that varied with loads you have in your house would not reveal this kind of fault.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Alan,
all good points, the current could even be flowing ingress to home with a outside wire that has compromised insulation.

thus far with the data supplied, sounds like a call to poco to have them start testing and verifying homeowner observations.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

AllanJ said:


> If a dielectric union is known to exist (even recently installed) just outside the house where the cold water pipe exits then the cold water pipe no longer qualifies as a grounding electrode and any fat copper wires clamped to the cold water plumbing become bonding jumpers (to protect plumbing up in the house) instead of grounding electrode conductors.


If I remember correctly, the use of dielectric unions on the main water line is against code... at least in our area.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Bob Sanders said:


> If I remember correctly, the use of dielectric unions on the main water line is against code... at least in our area.


A utility company can do whatever they want, they don't follow under any local codes.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

stickboy1375 said:


> A utility company can do whatever they want, they don't follow under any local codes.


Here it's not the "utility company" . It's the city of winnipeg. The City supplies and manages it's own water.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

terps530 said:


> a) What is going on?! How do I fix this??
> b) If the ground is constantly taking current, does that make sense that it could act as a catalyst to cause the copper pipes to corrode, and thus keep getting pinhole breaks? FYI I had 3 in December this year, and that kind of kicked this into high gear. I had thought that A/C current shouldn't cause corrosion- only DC. Or is it possible that voltage is arcing to the pipe and causing a sudden pinhole break?
> //////////////


You have a damaged neutral from your panel to the transformer. 7 amps is way too much. Did you happen to measure the current when the power company ran the temporary neutral?

AC currents can cause corrosion of copper pipes. A lesser degree than DC but it still happens. There are also many pics on the net showing green corrosion on pipes only in the area of the the GEC bond. A person that I work with had the exact issue with his main water feed as you described. He was the only person in the subdivision to have multiple leaks. On the last repair the plumber had a serious shock so POCO was called out and it was a tough problem for them to find. When the subdivision was built there was a public light pole in front of his house that for whatever reason never got installed but the wiring was ran to it and buried underground energized. The wirenut, tape, or whatever on the hot was compromised and current was seeking a path through the copper water main.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

zappa said:


> *You have a damaged neutral from your panel to the transformer. 7 amps is way too* much. Did you happen to measure the current when the power company ran the temporary neutral?


How are you determining this? The water pipe is in PARALLEL with the neutral conductor back to the transformer...


I've measured 30 amps on a city water pipe, it's absolutely normal.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

This thread is just one of those rare posts that simply cannot be answered on the internet, Someone with the correct education and knowledge needs to make the correct readings and troubleshoot the issue, if one even exist to begin with...


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

stickboy1375 said:


> How are you determining this? The water pipe is in PARALLEL with the neutral conductor back to the transformer...
> 
> 
> *I've measured 30 amps on a city water pipe, it's absolutely normal.*


Who are you and what did you do with stickboy? :2guns:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Think about it, how does the current know which path to choose to return to the source? It's a parallel path.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

zappa said:


> You (MAY) have a damaged neutral from your panel to the transformer. 7 amps is way too much. Did you happen to measure the current when the power company ran the temporary neutral?
> 
> .


fify...

or you may just have a very good (low resistance) GES.

(Just double checking my thinking.... but if you had three parellel service neutrals, all of equal net resistance, would not each carry exactly 33.3 % of the current. 

IF SO,Thus if you connect an additional jumper/temporary service neutral, you would expect the GES current to go down... and you have not proven that your real service neutral is compromized)

Am I thinking wrong...

TIA


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

stickboy1375 said:


> Think about it, how does the current know which path to choose to return to the source? It's a parallel path.


Resistance


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

zappa said:


> Resistance


I know Stick and bet everyone agrees on that.

So... Circumstances could exist in a copper system that the GES has a very low resistance... approching a good service neutral... NO?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Given the op has been advised of several things, including removing the Gec from the water pipe for several reasons, for safety sake turn off your main breaker and check for current before removing it.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

nap said:


> Given the op has been advised of several things, including removing the Gec from the water pipe for several reasons, for safety sake turn off your main breaker and check for current before removing it.


That is not wise if there is a loose Neutral between the house & power transformer. Removing that ground connection, can cause a possible fire and/or electrocution.

The OP needs to have the Power Company back out there again, along with a certified licensed Electrician, before doing anything.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> That is not wise if there is a loose Neutral between the house & power transformer. Removing that ground connection, can cause a possible fire and/or electrocution.
> 
> The OP needs to have the Power Company back out there again, along with a certified licensed Electrician, before doing anything.


I didn't recommend he disconnect it but others did. I said before he did he should shut off his power and also check for current.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You cannot just shut off power at the panel. The Meter head needs to be pulled, or disconnected at the transformer before doing this.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> You cannot just shut off power at the panel. The Meter head needs to be pulled, or disconnected at the transformer before doing this.


really? When is the last time yiu pulled a meter that disconnects the neutral?

You turn off the main breaker. That provide the exact same action as pulling the meter since the neutral is landed in a lug that remains connected when you pull the meter.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

This thread has de-generated !
It's going no-where 
Time to close it, I think ?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

gregzoll said:


> You cannot just shut off power at the panel. The Meter head needs to be pulled, or disconnected at the transformer before doing this.




Pulling the meter does not break the neutral, its the same as opening the main.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> You cannot just shut off power at the panel. The Meter head needs to be pulled, or disconnected at the transformer before doing this.


Why?...


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

dmxtothemax said:


> This thread has de-generated !
> It's going no-where
> Time to close it, I think ?


DMX.... I disagree..... there is evidently some basic electrical misunderstandings, erroneus conclusions, and some excellent good discussion.... seems to me that is exactly what this forum is for....

But if you want to go back to issues as to wiring a 3-way switch.... I understand that is your opinion.

Best


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

I find this circumstance interesting in that why does code allow/ actually create, a parrellel neutral, as in this case the GES appears to be acting.

You'll note, code prohibits a potential parrellel EGC, as we must float a neutral in a subpanel... (Seems to me to be the same principle.)

Under these circumstances...besides potential deterioration of the plumbing, you also risk an electrical potential hazard if the pipe is cut....

I just think these issues should be understood.... which they evidently are not.

Note.... that even if the service neutral is compromized and subsequently repaired, OP's plumbing will still be carring current.... in this OP's circumstance/situation.

Just an opinion.

Best

Peter


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

the gnd has ohms back to poco, the neutral does not (when they are isolated in the service panel, etc.)


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

concrete_joe said:


> the gnd has ohms back to poco (apparently not many in the OP's circumstance), the neutral does not(minimal...all wire has some resistance )(when they are isolated in the service panel, etc.)(they are not isolated in the service panel[/QUOTE]
> 
> Concrete... not sure of your point....
> 
> Best


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

I figured that I'd inject a bit of semi-off-topic info just to change things up a bit.

DC current is the bane of any metal utility piping and stray current mitigation in transit that uses DC traction power (to run the trains) is a BIG deal (in contrast to the AC current that is being discussed herein). We run trains that operate on 600V DC (nominal) and the return current travels back through the running rails to a substation return point where it travels back to the substation (a big rectifier, essentially).

While we try to isolate the running rails from ground, like any system, this complete isolation is ideal in nature. The DC (leakage) return current will find a nearby (and often parallel) metal pipe that it will gladly travel over until it gets in the vicinity of the substation. At that point, it leaves the pipe, travels through ground and couples to the negative bus in the substation (again, the world is not a perfect place). When the DC current leaves the pipe, it takes electrons with it which over time (and due to the high currents, often not _a lot_ of time) removes metal from the pipe eventually resulting in a hole.

To combat this, we install contactors in the substations that tie our DC negative bus to the utilities. When the voltage difference between them exceeds some value (50V I believe although I am NOT a substation engineer), the contact closes and ties the utility piping to our negative bus, effectively draining any current directly and preventing electrolysis. Viola! Pipes no longer develop holes/leaks due to our DC return/leakage problems, etc.

Thought that this might be somewhat complimentary to this ongoing thread albeit different.

FWIW, sustained and normally-occurring currents on EGC's (including the premises water supply piping) is not, let's say, _normal_. 

Enjoy,
J


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

As long as the actual nueutral is good removing the gec from the water pipe will not cause any problems like you suggest. It is simply that it is a parallel path that causes it to have any current on it at all. If you disconndct the water pipe all the current returns on the neutral. No problem. 

There is a huge difference between an egc and a neutral on the load side of the main and a paralleled neutral on the line side of the main. With the egc on the load side, you do not ever want it energized. The neutral is the sole conductor intended for return current. 
There is no ground conductor from the poco, only hots and a neutral. Having multiple return paths with current on them is not a problem.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

nap said:


> As long as the actual nueutral is good removing the gec from the water pipe will not cause any problems like you suggest. It is simply that it is a parallel path that causes it to have any current on it at all. If you disconndct the water pipe all the current returns on the neutral. No problem.
> 
> There is a huge difference between an egc and a neutral on the load side of the main and a paralleled neutral on the line side of the main. With the egc on the load side, you do not ever want it energized. The neutral is the sole conductor intended for return current.
> There is no ground conductor from the poco, only hots and a neutral. *Having multiple return paths with current on them is not a problem*.


Nap... Thanks .... agree with everything you actually say.... *but when that parellel path is the water piping*... apparently there is an actual problem (deterioration of the water supply pipeing) and a potential safety problem if a plumber cuts that pipe and becomes the jumper in that cut pipe.

In most instances, the resistance is high enough ... but in this case , it may not appears so.

Just saying..... Apparently the OP has a problem.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

There is a problem in the fact it damages the pipe but regarding the electrical system, no problem. 


If the neutral is good cutting the pipe should not be an issue unless you put yourself in circuit. Then it's a problem. There should be a practice in place where the plumber installs a jumper so it will not be an issue. 


Personally I don't like this situation and wouid take all efforts to be certain it is not an issue. 



And to whomever said somethkng about putting a dielectric union woukd cause the pipe to be useless as a gec. That is incorrect, unless the union is immediately outside the house. It will still act as a grounding electrode unless the union is place immediately outside the house b


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I find this circumstance interesting in that why does code allow/ actually create, a parrellel neutral, as in this case the GES appears to be acting.
> 
> You'll note, code prohibits a potential parrellel EGC, as we must float a neutral in a subpanel... (Seems to me to be the same principle.)
> 
> ...


In a perfect world ground and neutral would be separate back to the transformer as in some parts of the world (Google TN-S earthing system) 

Unfortunately electricity is still in its developmental phase so to speak. The issue is that POCOs play by very different rules, and getting old ones to change is very difficult. Perfect example: ranges and dryers were allowed to ground through the neutral in the 1940s, and it was said only to be so as to conserve copper during WWII. However, it was not until 1996 (well after the war) that the NEC disallowed that practice. 


The NEC does not mandate bonding of water lines intentionally to create parallel paths, rather its just a side effect of POCO not giving us a grounding conductor. On the contrary, the NEC wishes the issue did not exist. In fact where customers own any transformers (SDS) the feed must be 4 wire for single phase or 5 wire for three phase and only bonded in one location (either in the transformer or first OCPD). (Google "separately derived system")

We bond to water pipes for several reasons:

1. Water pipes make good ground rods (grounding electrode conductors) for lightning and surge events. 

2. Bonding in case of fault in order to clear it. Unbounded water pipes could become energized if a hot wire touched them. In such a case everything in your home like faucets, spigots, ect could become energized at 120 volts. When the pipe is bonded any hot wire touching a pipe will blow a breaker removing a huge danger.


3. Equal potential. It keeps the piping and the same potential as all your appliances and foundation (if a UFER is present). This is for different reasons I can go more into latter, but one irony is helping reduce the voltage between plumbing fixtures and appliance frames during an open neutral, and to lesser extent normal use. Basically any difference in potential between the incoming neutral, remote earth and water pipes is reduced or eliminated. 

4. Fire protection. This has to do with open neutrals. In the event a water line can handle all neutral current produced by a home, its best branch circuit EGCs don't carry all of it. 

Ok, bare with me.

Consider a case where the water line is not bonded per code, simply left floating. There is a good chance some appliance is inadvertently bonding to a water pipe that also has an EGC connected to its frame. An example is a dishwasher where the copper water line is connected to a water valve, which is mounted to the metal chassis which also has an EGC connected to it as per UL and NEC.

Nothing will appear out of place in most cases. Now, if at some point down the road the service neutral failed, all that current be pushed onto alternate paths. 

One of those paths will be a 14 gauge branch circuit EGC to the dishwasher. Current will flow from the panel, through the EGC, onto the water valve and through the copper water line and eventually out into the street going where it can. 

14 obviously cant handle what a #6 water bond can handle and will overheat until it sets something a blaze like wooden framing members. 

Where a water bond is present and sized per NEC most of the current will be shunted through it rather than the branch circuit EGC.

A bit tough to grasp it if drawn on paper it starts to clear up.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> Having multiple return paths with current on them is not a problem.


Nope, not so. Granted it isnt always noticeable, but the mass bootlegging POCOs do isn't 100% trouble free. Here is one issue:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=fCVDp8AZ-ZTPvLizH4gBuA&bvm=bv.85076809,d.cGU


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

This thread got my curiosity up so I checked the current on my own water main. With my 120 volt loads unbalanced as much as possible the highest reading I could come up with was .6 amps.

Similar setup to the OP's. Underground service about 100' from the transformer. Copper pipe city water, service has been buried since 1982. The only difference is I share the transformer with 4 other neighbors and the OP has his own transformer so my house has more of a chance for parallel current on the water pipe.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

zappa said:


> This thread got my curiosity up so I checked the current on my own water main. With my 120 volt loads unbalanced as much as possible the highest reading I could come up with was .6 amps.
> 
> Similar setup to the OP's. Underground service about 100' from the transformer. Copper pipe city water, service has been buried since 1982. The only difference is I share the transformer with 4 other neighbors and the OP has his own transformer so my house has more of a chance for parallel current on the water pipe.


If the POCO has an MGN it ties even separate transformers together. Picture an MGN like a giant buss bar in that all customer neutrals are connected to it.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Jump-start said:


> If the POCO has an MGN it ties even separate transformers together. Picture an MGN like a giant buss bar in that all customer neutrals are connected to it.


I realize the transformers are bonded together. We are talking about relatively low resistances so I mentioned it because of mass and redundancy of the conductors and reliability of inside bonds.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

zappa said:


> This thread got my curiosity up so I checked the current on my own water main. With my 120 volt loads unbalanced as much as possible the highest reading I could come up with was .6 amps..


I've done the same. I can't remember the exact number but it was less than an amp

I don't for one single second believe that 30 or 40 amps through your water line on any kind of regular basis is at all 'normal'. Indeed that in my book would be a total hazard with that kind of difference in potential located at each water fixture in the house.

This is NOT normal and my guess is that something is wrong with the neutral and/or grounding system to cause an unnaturally lower resistance in the ground than the neutral.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

zappa said:


> I realize the transformers are bonded together. We are talking about relatively low resistances so I mentioned it because of mass and redundancy of the conductors and reliability of inside bonds.


 
Ok, just making sure the OP understood in case he is indeed served by only one transformer. Sorry about the nit picking


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## Protocol. (May 31, 2012)

Not an electrician but after reading this entire thread have a couple inputs.

If op has a less than perfect neutral, couldn't current be finding its way down his water main, through the pipes, up a neighbors water line and down their neutral? Obviously current will flow through ALL paths of return. But having a higher than Normal resistance on his neutral will cause more current to travel down his ground pipe rather than neutral. 

Op also said that the only reason he knows water pipe has leak is due to hissing noise. Other owners may have same issue but have always heard noise or never noticed? Wouldn't rule out other neighbors having this issue.

Also, while op has done this checking, has he compared his current coming though L1 and L2 to neutral and his grounding conductors? Has he gone into his furnace to find out where the current is coming from? Of the largest rise of current on his main is coming from his furnace, maybe a connection inside his furnace has cross connected neutral and ground?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Part of the skills of someone experienced with electricity is analytical skills.

The house needs to be set up as a "test bed" with known resistive loads on the two legs of the 120/240 volt service. Electronic equipment should be unplugged.

Current on the regular service neutral and on the water pipe is measured. Then, running a substitute service neutral over the ground to the utility pole and measuring the current on it and re-measuring current on the regular service neutral and the water pipe, meaningful conclusions can often be drawn as to the condition of the regular service neutral.

With a known good neutral (the substitute service neutral over the ground) in place, the water pipe can be eliminated as a ground path (may require more than disconnecting the grounding electrode conductor) without danger of frying other things like coax cable shields.

You detected a change in current on the water pipe when the furnace turned on because the furnace has a reasonably high 120 volt current drawing component (blower fan?) Change in current draw on one of the 120 volt legs will cause a corresponding change in current flow over the neutral path(s) back to the pole transformer.


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## TimPa (Aug 15, 2010)

interesting thread for sure. in considering all of the current flows, it never dawned on me that unbalanced loads had any path to go but the neutral! 

of course the (safety) grounding systems are always in a parallel circuit together with the neutral, allowing another path for current. considering the gauges, if the water supply pipe were 3/4" soft, my _rough calculations_ bring it out to 00 awg equiv range. that certainly would explain substantial current levels if calculating the parallel paths of say #4 awg neutral & gec.

glad i read this thread. hope the op confirms the resolve with us.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

there are many scenarios for why the water pipe is carrying such excessive current. 

OP - do you have a metal union somewhere on that pipe? can you turn your water off and undo the union then try and read currents again, and then with a volt meter measure voltage between the two segments of pipe?

beyond some testing and speculation, poco probably needs to be called.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

This is a decent read to get people up to speed and at least remotely on the same page.....

http://ecmweb.com/bonding-amp-grounding/shocking-truth-about-grounding-electrode-conductors


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## TimPa (Aug 15, 2010)

good read. 

and for clarification, current will not flow unless a potential (voltage)exisits to move the electrons. So our neutral/ground _reference_ point, the junction where neutral and ges tie together in the main panel, actually have some voltage difference when compared to earth potential. 

For all practical purposes, that tie point should remain our reference point.

this also gives credence to the rule of never tying ground and neutral together again - if a voltage potential does exist, it will produce current in the conductive loop that was created. And, this current is non-productive - doing no work. $$


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

TimPa said:


> good read.
> 
> and for clarification, current will not flow unless a potential (voltage)exisits to move the electrons. So our neutral/ground _reference_ point, the junction where neutral and ges tie together in the main panel, actually have some voltage difference when compared to earth potential.
> 
> ...


Tim... Could you help me understand the bold..

TIA

Best

Peter


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## TimPa (Aug 15, 2010)

actually, since i wrote that my thinking has changed. 

My initial thought was a potential existed across a network of wires with differing resistances, causing current within those wires. However, the polarity will always be the same across the network. so this will not be a current loop. sorry, and thanks for calling me on that!

theroetically, this is an instance where neutral and ground are tied back together - at earth! it is not in any branch circuit though.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

TimPa said:


> actually, since i wrote that my thinking has changed.
> 
> My initial thought was a potential existed across a network of wires with differing resistances, causing current within those wires. However, the polarity will always be the same across the network. so this will not be a current loop. sorry, and thanks for calling me on that!
> 
> theoretically, this is an instance where neutral and ground are tied back together - at earth! * it is not in any branch circuit though.*


that is to be discovered to be true or false. not all branch circuits have 100% ok wiring, etc. think of a N wire touching a metal box, or even possibly someone tying a N and GND together thinking they were bonding correctly.

as i mentioned, many scenarios that can cause this perhaps not so uncommon issue.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

TimPa said:


> actually, since i wrote that my thinking has changed.
> 
> My initial thought was a potential existed across a network of wires with differing resistances, causing current within those wires. However, the polarity will always be the same across the network. so this will not be a current loop. sorry, and thanks for calling me on that!
> 
> theroetically, this is an instance where neutral and ground are tied back together - at earth! it is not in any branch circuit though.


I'm not sure what you are trying to convince yourself of....


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

In the case of a common metal underground water piping system being used as the grounding electrode, it would not be uncommon to find 20% or more of the grounded conductor current on the GEC that connected to the water pipe.



You guys just need to accept this fact!


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> In the case of a common metal underground water piping system being used as the grounding electrode, it would not be uncommon to find 20% or more of the grounded conductor current on the GEC that connected to the water pipe.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys just need to accept this fact!


That may well be true. But "IF" the utility reported an 8v swing, I would call that reason to verify the integrity of the system secondary neutral back to the pot. IMO. 

4v loss would be marginal to me. 2v acceptable. 

("swing" meaning corresponding rise and fall on the hot legs as a load introduced)


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> That may well be true. But "IF" the utility reported an 8v swing, I would call that reason to verify the integrity of the system secondary neutral back to the pot. IMO.
> 
> 4v loss would be marginal to me. 2v acceptable.
> 
> ("swing" meaning corresponding rise and fall on the hot legs as a load introduced)


Yes, but here is the problem to this entire thread, The OP just took a reading from the hip and assumed a problem existed, where this should have been corrected in the second post, instead, this thread took off so many opinions and no facts of how an electrical system even works.... crazy!


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

If you (the homeowner) calls me to troubleshoot a possible stray current issue, there is a proper way to go about this.... 

First things first, shut the main off to determine if the current is from inside the structure, or an outside source.... 

second, verify all voltages with breakers off, then while turning each load on. 

Lift all the GEC's from the grounded (neutral) conductor, 

re-verify all voltages to see if a voltage shift exists...


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> Yes, but here is the problem to this entire thread, The OP just took a reading from the hip and assumed a problem existed, where this should have been corrected in the second post, instead, this thread took off so many opinions and no facts of how an electrical system even works.... crazy!


He reported that Con Ed said 8v. That's what I'm going on.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> He reported that Con Ed said 8v. That's what I'm going on.


Yeah, i'm curious about it, and if they already fixed it. 


Look at the bright side though, he has the water main as a secondary neutral.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stickboy1375 said:


> Yes, but here is the problem to this entire thread, The OP just took a reading from the hip and assumed a problem existed, where this should have been corrected in the second post, instead, this thread took off so many opinions and no facts of how an electrical system even works.... crazy!


Stick.... Yes... What you say is dead correct.... but isn't that the value and one reason this forum even exists. 

There is alot of confusion / misunderstanding with electrical.... and I think it is fair to say the OP's circumstance (integrity...low resistance.. of the GES) is somewhat unusual.

In either event, I am learning in this discussion.... SO thank you all that contributed... especially the ones with a correct understanding. 

JMO

Best

Peter


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

If the OP returns to read.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

CLW and Stick.....or anyone...

In detrmining the integrity of the service neutral, I do understand the use of voltage swing/varience in a series 240 circuit WHEN THE NEUTRAL IS OPEN/broken.

But if the neutral is just compromized / deteriorating / partially open / high resistance under heavy load..... how does that effect my leg swings/varience.

If SMALL loads (partially unbalanced) on both legs are applied under those conditions of a poor, but unbroken neutral, would I expect to see any swing varience.

As larger loads (that are unbalanced) are placed on the legs, would I then begin to read the V varience.

Bottom line, I do not understand how a *partiall or poor service* neutral affects the legs voltages.

TIA

Peter


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

remove the N to GND service bond, whats the voltage between a pole and N ?? if N has any significant ohms from service to poco you would expect less than 120v, right ?? the sum of voltage drops = src.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Here is one trouble call I was on, original call was kid got shocked while playing with the spigot, The voltage on the spigot would go as high as 25 volts with a heavy load on the structure, this particular house was fed from a under ground primary direct buried, The primary neutral conductor eventually started to fail, leaving stray voltages on anything bonded to the electrical system... 


I personally could never feel the shock the kid got, even at 25 volts, but I bet that kid got lit up pretty good.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

If the neutral path from the panel neutral to the pole transformer neutral is degraded i.e. partially compromised then there will be voltage swings although to a lesser extent compared with no neutral path.

The voltage swings encountered with a degraded neutral are the result of the number of amperes attempting to take the neutral path and the resistance of the neutral path. As more or fewer loads are imposed on the two hot legs of the service, the difference is the would-be neutral current. With a degraded neutral, calculating the difference current becomes somewhat complicated.

In the OP's situation, the unknown is the condition of the service neutral. If the service neutral is in good condition, which means a near zero resistance, and still some current flows on the water pipe because that path has a relatively low resistance of its own then we really have a normal situation at the OP's home.

One possible reason for a low resistance path via the water pipe is a ground rod driven at the base of a utility pole coincidentally running very close to a water main.
.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> One possible reason for a low resistance path via the water pipe is a ground rod driven at the base of a utility pole coincidentally running very close to a water main.
> .


No, its because the neighbors house shares the same transformer who's panel is ALSO bonded to the water system.... Its a solidly connected electrical path for the return current. This is why when a city water pipe is used as a GEC, it will carry about 20% of the return current. This graphic shows an open neutral on one house and how it returns to the transformer through the other house. This can exist forever without anyone knowing.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

TimPa said:


> actually, since i wrote that my thinking has changed.
> 
> My initial thought was a potential existed across a network of wires with differing resistances, causing current within those wires. However, the polarity will always be the same across the network. so this will not be a current loop. sorry, and thanks for calling me on that!
> 
> theroetically, this is an instance where neutral and ground are tied back together - at earth! it is not in any branch circuit though.



To Elaborate. All wires have a small amount of resistance, which in turn cause voltage drop. Consider a branch circuit when a heater is turned on with lights plugged in. Those light dim because of voltage drop.

Same concept applies to a service neutral and hots. Even those will have voltage drop. So any current going through the neutral will result in a measurable voltage drop across the neutral usually a volt or two, more in longer runs or large currents.

Because of the slight voltage difference, current is pushed over other paths. 

Just another way to look at it.

Stickboy's article is an excellent explanation of how current gets onto grounding electrodes like water pipes.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Here is one trouble call I was on, original call was kid got shocked while playing with the spigot, The voltage on the spigot would go as high as 25 volts with a heavy load on the structure, this particular house was fed from a under ground primary direct buried, The primary neutral conductor eventually started to fail, leaving stray voltages on anything bonded to the electrical system...
> 
> 
> I personally could never feel the shock the kid got, even at 25 volts, but I bet that kid got lit up pretty good.


Classic open neutral symptom. And this is why we bond within a structure including the UFER which always seems to get left out in many areas.

Even though the spigot reads voltage to ground; voltage between pipes, appliances ect anything else bonded will be at a much lower voltage potential (theoretically close to zero)


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> Classic open neutral symptom. And this is why we bond within a structure including the UFER which always seems to get left out in many areas.
> 
> Even though the spigot reads voltage to ground; voltage between pipes, appliances ect anything else bonded will be at a much lower voltage potential (theoretically close to zero)


Bonding won't help with an open neutral, the voltage potential will exist between anything bonded to the electrical system and a path back to the transformer... Bonding actually makes it worse in that scenario.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Bonding won't help with an open neutral, the voltage potential will exist between anything bonded to the electrical system and a path back to the transformer... Bonding actually makes it worse in that scenario.


I disagree.

Can you imagine if the plumbing wasn't bonded in a case like that with one hand on the kitchen sink and the other on the stove?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Can you imagine if the plumbing wasn't bonded in a case like that with one hand on the kitchen sink and the other on the stove?



They would probably get whacked off the sink before they were playing twister in their kitchen touching 2 appliances at once...  You have to remember, that imbalance current is desperately seeking a return path to the transformer, the more things you energize, the more options you are giving the current to return back to the source.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> They would probably get whacked off the sink before they were playing twister in their kitchen touching 2 appliances at once...


But if the floor was wooden, or of a concrete rebar slab bonded to the service disconnect?


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> They would probably get whacked off the sink before they were playing twister in their kitchen touching 2 appliances at once...  You have to remember, that imbalance current is desperately seeking a return path to the transformer, the more things you energize, the more options you are giving the current to return back to the source.


Dude, I have a galley kitchen. No problem.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> They would probably get whacked off the sink before they were playing twister in their kitchen touching 2 appliances at once...  You have to remember, that imbalance current is desperately seeking a return path to the transformer, the more things you energize, the more options you are giving the current to return back to the source.


True, but why not at least limit voltage potential between what an occupant might come in contact with.

(Edit came in latter I guess) :laughing:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Its a moot point anyway, your house will probably burn to the ground before you have a chance to touch anything... :laughing:


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Its a moot point anyway, your house will probably burn to the ground before you have a chance to touch anything... :laughing:


Its not, entire papers have been published on equal potential theory.

Think of dairy farmers who have stray voltage. What two options exist? 


I have known homes to go sometimes with an open noodle, at least enough time for people to try and live normally until they truly catch on.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

To Terps530, don't let the banter keep you away. Very normal over some subjects. Please update us or share any further observations or ask any questions you have. We'd love to know more.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

I love all the responses. Nothing is banter to me- it's all much appreciated. Just been bad timing. My dads 60th--> Super Bowl--> snowstorm. I've been borrowing a meter from work and didn't have it so I bought one now but was snowed in w/o a 9v battery for it. 

I'll catch up on this thread tomorrow while at work and I'll start doing some tests and documenting them throughout the week. I'll be careful and won't do anything over my head. 

Thanks again !! I'm definitely learning a lot.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> I love all the responses. Nothing is banter to me- it's all much appreciated. Just been bad timing. My dads 60th--> Super Bowl--> snowstorm. I've been borrowing a meter from work and didn't have it so I bought one now but was snowed in w/o a 9v battery for it.
> 
> I'll catch up on this thread tomorrow while at work and I'll start doing some tests and documenting them throughout the week. I'll be careful and won't do anything over my head.
> 
> Thanks again !! I'm definitely learning a lot.


 
This is the place to learn! :thumbup:

A lot of brilliant, dedicated and experienced minds are on here.:yes: It may look like banter in some ways but its real time learning in progress. Us thinking aloud on a complex subject, kind of like a classroom creative discussion, just on the net.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Did someone ask this question:

During the time there wer 7 amperes flowing through the water pipe exiting the house, how many amps were flowing on the service neutral?


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

AllanJ said:


> Did someone ask this question:
> 
> During the time there wer 7 amperes flowing through the water pipe exiting the house, how many amps were flowing on the service neutral?


the service neutral wasn't checked at that time. I'll be more prepared next time the POCO or electrician comes so we can check things like this.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Really what you should do is measure leg A, measure leg B, subtract those numbers, and verify the neutral is carrying that number....


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> Did someone ask this question:
> 
> During the time there wer 7 amperes flowing through the water pipe exiting the house, how many amps were flowing on the service neutral?


AllanJ, although a fair question, it's incomplete, the OP needs to measure leg A, leg B, the Neutral, and the water pipe.... and even then it is inconclusive, unless the water main is carrying the entire unbalanced load.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

stickboy1375 said:


> AllanJ, although a fair question, it's incomplete, the OP needs to measure leg A, leg B, the Neutral, and the water pipe.... and even then it is inconclusive, unless the water main is carrying the entire unbalanced load.


Why not just the neutral and pipe so one could calculate the ratio?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

zappa said:


> Why not just the neutral and pipe so one could calculate the ratio?


What ratio? The water pipe is in parallel with the neutral, who is to say which should carry more without real resistance numbers. 

I find that 20% is a normal figure with city water..

But you still need to measure leg A and leg B to determine the unbalanced load at that time of measurement.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Zappa, look at it this way, if every house was perfectly balanced, a neutral wouldn't even be required... so you have to determine the unbalanced load first most.

Then you determine how that current is returning to the transformer, with city water, it's a non issue, but with ground rods and a well, huge problems with a open neutral. Expect items to burn up.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)




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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stickboy1375 said:


> AllanJ, although a fair question, it's incomplete, the OP needs to measure leg A, leg B, the Neutral, and the water pipe.... *and even then it is inconclusive, unless the water main is carrying the entire unbalanced load*.


 Stick.... it would also be conclusive, would it not, if (difference between leg A & B ) + GES = Service neutral...?????

(Conclusive to the extent that we know that the problem is next door.)


Peter


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Yes peter, you could simply subtract the difference from leg a and leg b from the neutral and any remaining current would be from an outside source.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

Pyroforic carbonization. Wow. Was thinking about that today. Very nice. Thank you. 

As you were.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

ritelec said:


> Pyroforic carbonization. Wow. Was thinking about that today. Very nice. Thank you.
> 
> As you were.


 I saw a man walking his dog in Hoboken.

As you were.:wink:


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

ritelec said:


> Pyroforic carbonization. Wow. Was thinking about that today. Very nice. Thank you.
> 
> As you were.


I sure am glad I wasn't the only one thinking about that today. I was afraid to say something, but feel much better now. I mean really, who doesn't have that cross their mind every few days.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

stickboy1375 said:


> What ratio? The water pipe is in parallel with the neutral, who is to say which should carry more without real resistance numbers.
> 
> I find that 20% is a normal figure with city water..
> 
> But you still need to measure leg A and leg B to determine the unbalanced load at that time of measurement.


I don't agree stick. There is no reason to mess around with the hot legs. In this case we are just concerned with the current on the neutral compared to the water pipe. Somewhere in this thread the OP said that the current on the pipe went away when the main was off so there is no current coming from another source if that is your reasoning.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

We already established that there was no significant neutral current coming in from the neighbor's house or from wherever else. (Turn off the main breaker and water pipe current drops to near zero.)

If the ratio of service neutral current to total neutral current including water pipe current is more than 2/3 (and there are no symptoms of a bad neutral such as seesawing voltages) then I would conclude that there is no problem with the service neutral.

If the ratio of service neutral current to total neutral current is less than 1/3 then I would conclude that there is definitely a problem with the service neutral.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Allan.... I understand your point.... but it is still a subjective evaluation... *a good one I believe*, but still subjective.... and I guess not definitive/conclusive.

Just thinking.... I'd almost draw the line at 50-50 as a subjective conclusion. Just seems to me (an electrical laymen) that it is difficult for me to believe a GES "neutral" thru the ground pipe and up to a neighbors neutral would have less resistance than a perfectly fine service neutral... but I guess it could....????

Best


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> CLW and Stick.....or anyone...
> 
> In detrmining the integrity of the service neutral, I do understand the use of voltage swing/varience in a series 240 circuit WHEN THE NEUTRAL IS OPEN/broken.
> 
> ...


Posted earlier in this thread when V variance was being investigated, and not directly germain to the A testing, but can anyone help me clarrify my thinking/understanding in the above regard.

TIA

Peter


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

post #156.

depends on what R3 is. at zero the leg voltages will be same regardless of leg loads. R3 > 0 then the measured voltages vary depending on leg loads (R1 & R2).


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

concrete_joe said:


> post #156.
> 
> depends on what R3 is. at zero the leg voltages will be same regardless of leg loads. R3 > 0 then the measured voltages vary depending on leg loads (R1 & R2).


 Thanks Joe... but I understand that....

My question is *HOW will those leg loads vary* as a function of R3 increasing... and dependent upon the load imbalance between R1 and R2


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Thanks Joe... but I understand that....
> 
> My question is *HOW will those leg loads vary* as a function of R3 increasing... and dependent upon the load imbalance between R1 and R2



R1=R2, R3=Infinite, you have equal load across the poles
R1=x, R2=R3=infinite, no load on the poles
R1<R2, R3=infinte, well, R1 & R2 loads wont like that much

R3=1,000,000,000
R1=120
R2=60

pole to pole = 1.3amps

now, start bringing R3 down and you'll see sums of pole currents remain at 1.3amps, but the path of the charge is now sharing pole to pole & pole to neutral.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

concrete_joe said:


> R1=R2, R3=Infinite, you have equal load across the poles
> R1=x, R2=R3=infinite, no load on the poles
> R1<R2, R3=infinte, well, R1 & R2 loads wont like that much
> 
> ...


 Joe... Thanks for the try.... but I'm not sure what your saying.....ya got me confused.

In your top 3 examples , when you say R3 infinite, I think you mean R3 (neutral) has 0 (negligible) OHMs (infinite conductivity).* I understand all of that (except I don't think R1 and R2 give a damn) If you meant R3 as infinite OHMs (broken neutral), I understand that circumstance also.*

*I'm trying to understand when there is resistance to a partially impaired neutral.... as R3 increases in resistance.... and as the neutral load (imbalance of the legs) increases.... what do we see in regard to voltages and amperage effects.*

In the next section, I have no idea what you mean.

1) What is R3= 1,000,000,000,000 (getting close to infinity) Did you mean it has that many OHMs resistance... virtually broken....

2) I honestly have no idea what you mean by the rest.... but I do thank you... as no one else seems interested in attacking the question.

Best

Peter


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

no, R3 infinite means open neutral. zero ohms neutral means perfect conductor.

in context, 1 billion ohms is not infinite, but in comparison to say the gec which may be 25ohms, 1 billion is almost open wire, etc.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm having a hard time as to why people think the water pipe is not going to carry a certain percentage of the return current??? The NEC allows us to use metal conduit as the equipment ground to clear a fault, so WHY is it a surprise to carry the unbalanced current? Open your minds people.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

If you really want to dumb this down, just call the utility company and have them put an amprobe on the neutral conductor at the transforner.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

stickboy1375 said:


> I'm having a hard time as to why people think the water pipe is not going to carry a certain percentage of the return current??? The NEC allows us to use metal conduit as the equipment ground to clear a fault, so WHY is it a surprise to carry the unbalanced current? Open your minds people.


with a neutral at about zero ohms back to xfrmr, what % would you expect the water pipe to carry?? lets say you loaded one pole up to 100amps, the other pole zero, you would expect how much on the water pipe?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

No more than 20%, but NOT abnormal to see that much either.... I find it odd that everyone is concerned with unknown R values, when the proper troubleshooting skills have already been posted.


How are you coming up with a neutral at zero ohms, just asking....


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stickboy1375 said:


> I'm having a hard time as *to why people think the water pipe is not going to carry a certain percentage of the return current*??? The NEC allows us to use metal conduit as the equipment ground to clear a fault, so WHY is it a surprise to carry the unbalanced current? Open your minds people.


 Stick..... I'm not having any problem.... my other inquiries are more an interest in theoretically understanding of electrical concepts.

But, you will have to acknowledge that there are numerous threads here that discuss, in one manner or other, that the GES is not an intended neutral, and really there to dissipate electrical surges.... I can understand some confusion....



Best


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

deleted ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Intended, yes but incidental is something totally different. 

There is no actual intent to use the water pipe as a neutral but it is, incidentally, none the less.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

Pretty awesome a first time poster generated such a thread.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> Intended, yes but incidental is something totally different.
> 
> There is no actual intent to use the water pipe as a neutral but it is, incidentally, none the less.


In a perfect world neutral and ground would be separate back to the source, but because they are not, even with a fully functional neutral current will always be present on the water main to some degree. I agree with Stickboy, in a dense area a healthy neutral can still allow 20% of the current on to the main.

you are correct, water pipes are not intended to carry any current, but do as a consequence of POCOs only providing a neutral.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

clw1963 said:


> Pretty awesome a first time poster generated such a thread.


Very true:laughing: But you cant beat the electrical theory and knowledge gained :thumbup:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Jump-start said:


> In a perfect world neutral and ground would be separate back to the source, but because they are not, even with a fully functional neutral current will always be present on the water main to some degree. I agree with Stickboy, in a dense area a healthy neutral can still allow 20% of the current on to the main.
> 
> you are correct, water pipes are not intended to carry any current, but do as a consequence of POCOs only providing a neutral.



There is no ground back to the source so what do you mean? There is no need for a ground to go back to the source. The benefits of "ground" are local to the individual service. 

But if you seperated the ground and neutral you would lose some of the benefits of what that bond provides 

But in reality a power system works fine without a grounded leg, a ground system, or a grounding electrode system, as long as everything works right.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Jump-start said:


> Very true:laughing: But you cant beat the electrical theory and knowledge gained :thumbup:


^^^^:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Even though we stumble through some issues, I'm with Jump...GOOD THREAD!!!

Best


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> There is no ground back to the source so what do you mean? There is no need for a ground to go back to the source. The benefits of "ground" are local to the individual service.
> 
> But if you seperated the ground and neutral you would lose some of the benefits of what that bond provides
> 
> But in reality a power system works fine without a grounded leg, a ground system, or a grounding electrode system, as long as everything works right.



Explain. Your bond would become the separate ground wire back to the source, so instead of a fault being shunted to the neutral at the panel its shunted to the neutral at the transformer much like a SDS. Water pipe bonding and ground electrodes would still exist as they provide benefits in all cases, even where the system is totally ungrounded like some older industrial. 


I agree with the last paragraph, most power systems under normal operation do not need any type of connection to ground, even at the high voltage transmission level. And heck, if faults never occurred you could dispense with the EGC. 

However, come fault time things change, which is why ungrounded systems are avoided. For one if resi 120/240 was ungrounded, if one hot leg shorted to ground the other hot leg would jump to 240 volts while the neutral would be 120 volts to ground. Not a good combination nor safe.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Back to basics. The current on the water pipe is a warning to check the integrity of the service neutral.

Once the service neutral is determined to be or repaired to be in good shape then you don't have control over how much current (still) flows on the water pipe ...until you contact the water company regarding electrolytic corrosion and they together with the electric company suggest additional changes.

Because you have no control over the resistance of any path from panel via grounding electrodes to the earth to more grounding electrodes and up to the pole transformer, you cannot count on any benefits that such a path might provide. In addition, fault current on ground wires (equipment grounding conductors) occurring from defects (faults) up in the house is intended to be cleared by the ground/neutral bond in the panel, and any path through the earth outside the house is irrelevent.

In order for the ground path through the earth to play a significant role in the success (or failure) of clearing a fault up in the house, both the neutral-ground bond at the main disconnect and the service neutral, and possibly the branch circuit neutral as well, would have to be faulty.



> In a perfect world neutral and ground would be separate back to the source, but because they are not, even with a fully functional neutral current will always be present on the water main to some degree.


Note that even with a "4 wire (hot, hot, separate neutral, separate ground)" 120/240 volt service drop, if the water pipe is used as a grounding electrode then some current can be expected to flow on it.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> Note that even with a "4 wire (hot, hot, separate neutral, separate ground)" 120/240 volt service drop, if the water pipe is used as a grounding electrode then some current can be expected to flow on it.


How would current get onto the water pipe if there is no neutral to bond jumper? All current will head back via insulated neutral, no opportunity exists for a detour.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Jump-start said:


> Explain. Your bond would become the separate ground wire back to the source, so instead of a fault being shunted to the neutral at the panel its shunted to the neutral at the transformer much like a SDS. Water pipe bonding and ground electrodes would still exist as they provide benefits in all cases, even where the system is totally ungrounded like some older industrial.
> 
> 
> I agree with the last paragraph, most power systems under normal operation do not need any type of connection to ground, even at the high voltage transmission level. And heck, if faults never occurred you could dispense with the EGC.
> ...


Back to what from the poco? Ground is a locally derived issue. The poco does not provide a ground. The ground provides a ground. I'm trying to figure out where you are connecting at the poco. Your over current devices do not depend on the poco for anything. Theirs are theirs.


And your statement about if resi was not grounded

If one leg grounded, nothing happens. It does not cause a 240 volt issue. It simply means one leg is grounded just like it is now. Realize that all what we call a neutral is nothing more than the center tap on s transformer. I could ground any one of the three legs of a center tapped transformer and it would not be an issue. It just happens we ground the center tap.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> > Back to what from the poco? Ground is a locally derived issue. The poco does not provide a ground. The ground provides a ground. I'm trying to figure out where you are connecting at the poco. Your over current devices do not depend on the poco for anything. Theirs are theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

stickboy1375 said:


> No more than 20%, but NOT abnormal to see that much either.... I find it odd that everyone is concerned with unknown R values, when the proper troubleshooting skills have already been posted.
> 
> 
> How are you coming up with a neutral at zero ohms, just asking....


a good N to xfrmer, is what, maybe 0.25ohm (thats #4 AL @1k ft)
a good earth connection (back to N on xfrmer) is what, maybe 30ohm

thus i would expect to see the load balance be 0.25/30 = 0.8333%

on a fully loaded 100amp service, thats just 0.8333amp on gnd and 99.1666amp on neutral wire.

but, OP said ~8amps on meter on pipe. if the N was say 10x the ohms @ 2.5ohm, on fully loaded 100amp service this would show ~8amp on gnd wire back to xfrmer. however, OP is no where near 100amp at time of measurements.

my guess, poco has a bad N connection. simple to verify, turn on some 120v loads (both poles if possible) and then measure the voltage from pole to N. if its less than 120v then the N is compromised.

not sure where you think 20% is a real #.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> a good N to xfrmer, is what, maybe 0.25ohm (thats #4 AL @1k ft)
> a good earth connection (back to N on xfrmer) is what, maybe 30ohm
> 
> thus i would expect to see the load balance be 0.25/30 = 0.8333%
> ...


 
30 ohm would be for a ground rod. A copper water pipe might be 0.3 ohms and a 0.15 ohm neutral would produce about 20% current flow.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Jump-start said:


> nap said:
> 
> 
> > Grounding electrodes and bonding of metal water pipes is local. I should have been more specific, my bad, I tend to use ground as a catch all.
> ...


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Jump-start said:


> 30 ohm would be for a ground rod. A copper water pipe might be 0.3 ohms and a 0.15 ohm neutral would produce about 20% current flow.



whats the water pipe path that you get 0.3 ohms back to xfrmer N ??

the only way you would see 0.3 ohm on water pipe back to xfrmer is if the path was via neighbors gec to N wire. 

i thought somewhere in these posts OP said he was the only one on this specific xfrmer?


but sure, if the gec is shared among other service panels via water piping, then i could see where 20% is realistic.


but, if gec's were shared you would expect to see current on water pipe even if OP's main service breaker was off, right? but didnt OP say when main breaker is off the pipe current measured zero? this would be odd since if it were shared gec then the current from neighbors would use OP's gec to N connection to pass some of the current.


i suspect N issue with poco side.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

nap said:


> Jump-start said:
> 
> 
> > you wouldn't run an egc to the poco because they do not provide a ground at any point. The egc MUST be tied to neutral because in effect it acts as s neutral during s ground fault situation. If you did not bond neutral and egc the egc would serve no purpose for a short circuit condition. As to the 120/240 transformer. I am not saying to do it. It was a mental exercise to explain why we do not have to ground the transformer.
> ...


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> whats the water pipe path that you get 0.3 ohms back to xfrmer N ??
> 
> the only way you would see 0.3 ohm on water pipe back to xfrmer is if the path was via neighbors gec to N wire.


 A copper water pipe is like a copper wire. Its not only bonded at one home, but all of them. So even with a good neutral you can still pass current onto a water main and the neighboring homes will pick it up through there water bonds. Also keep in mind municipal pipes may be in contact with the earth for miles. 

Unlike a ground rod a metal water pipe can have 0.2 ohms of resistance enough to as a substitute neutral


i thought somewhere in these posts OP said he was the only one on this specific xfrmer?


That's irrelevant. Ive said before you do not need to be transformer specific. In most areas of the US pocos use a multi grounded neutral which is one wire where EVERY customer neutral is connected to it. So if your neighbors water bond needs to get back to his own transformer you water bond will happily put his current on the POCOs MGN and back to his transformer.

This is actually why POCO tie customer neutral to theirs so there is lees liability should the MGN break.

The exception is where a POCO line is pure 3 wire and no other conductive path exists between transformers. 






> but sure, if the gec is shared among other service panels via water piping, then i could see where 20% is realistic.


You have to keep in mind there are dozens if not hundreds of interconnecting paths between buildings. TELCO, cable, gas lines ect. Yes gas is not bonded, but the furnace has an EGC , so its one more path. 





> but, if gec's were shared you would expect to see current on water pipe even if OP's main service breaker was off, right? but didnt OP say when main breaker is off the pipe current measured zero? this would be odd since if it were shared gec then the current from neighbors would use OP's gec to N connection to pass some of the current.


It depends who and what is using the piping. This part gets tricky Ill leave it for latter.




> i suspect N issue with poco side.


[/QUOTE]

Could be could be not, it will have to be determined if the neutral is truly broken.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

by way of ohms (per pole):
home A would pass 5% of total current to home B gec
home B would pass 5% of total current to home A gec

home A total load is 100A
home B total load is 100A

whats the current between the two homes via GEC ??? 


as was mentioned, when main breaker was turned off the pipe current was zero... cant be unless the gec (water pipe in this case) is not connected to any other service entrance N.

i am listening, but not seeing anything other than poco N problem.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> a good N to xfrmer, is what, maybe 0.25ohm (thats #4 AL @1k ft)
> a good earth connection (back to N on xfrmer) is what, maybe 30ohm
> 
> thus i would expect to see the load balance be 0.25/30 = 0.8333%
> ...




Not sure where you are getting your numbers from....


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> by way of ohms (per pole):
> home A would pass 5% of total current to home B gec
> home B would pass 5% of total current to home A gec
> 
> ...


You are confusing too many items and making these scenarios so much harder than they have to be.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> by way of ohms (per pole):
> home A would pass 5% of total current to home B gec
> home B would pass 5% of total current to home A gec
> 
> ...


Zero in this example. The information given suggests that small milliamperes should be ignored.

The neutral currents from each house, being equal, cancel each other out.

In the OP's example, when he turned off his main breaker and the water pipe current dropped to zero, it was not stated whether there were really still a few milliamperes flowing, those ma due to GEC current coming from other homes.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

AllanJ said:


> Zero in this example. The information given suggests that small milliamperes should be ignored.
> 
> The neutral currents from each house, being equal, cancel each other out.
> 
> In the OP's example, when he turned off his main breaker and the water pipe current dropped to zero, it was not stated whether there were really still a few milliamperes flowing, those ma due to GEC current coming from other homes.


right, but if his pipe is gec connected to neighbors N, then some neighbor current would then be flowing back via OP's N line to xfmer (when OP's main was off, etc). mA worth from neighbor? possibly because if OP's service N is bad then less current would want to go that way. turn main off, remove water pipe union, measure the current across the pipe sections. 

thus i suspect an issue with OP's service N to xfrmer and the leaking current on water pipe is via earth ground.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> right, but if his pipe is gec connected to neighbors N, then some neighbor current would then be flowing back via OP's N line to xfmer (when OP's main was off, etc). mA worth from neighbor? possibly because if OP's service N is bad then less current would want to go that way. turn main off, remove water pipe union, measure the current across the pipe sections.
> 
> thus i suspect an issue with OP's service N to xfrmer and the leaking current on water pipe is via earth ground.


Its getting way to confusing. Draw a picture out. 

And I don't get what you mean removing the water pipe union. 

At this point, the best option is a load bank done by the poco with the meter pulled. A load bank will confirm if the neutral is open or loose. 

Further, it was never said if the neutral was allowing current to flow through it and how much in regard to the water main.


True, if we knew resistance of all the paths, loads ect of the whole system we could run a current simulation and then algebraically find X that being the OPs neutral. X would be the unknown. 

However, we don't know the nearly infinite numbers associated with up to a dozen paths between the OP and all the other homes in addition to their service drops.

It boils down to the ratio of resistance between the neutral and all other paths which we do not know let alone current outside the water pipe.

And this point a we have is 7amps + Namps= total amps. N and total amps can be infinite. We cant solve an equation with 2 unknowns because they could be anything. 


In cases like this its best the have the POCO inspect and pull the meter.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> by way of ohms (per pole):
> home A would pass 5% of total current to home B gec
> home B would pass 5% of total current to home A gec
> 
> ...


Correction: The current between the two homes would be zero if both homes were drawing more power from the A leg (of the pole transformer) or if both homes were drawing more power from the B leg otherwise the current would be 10% of the total current.

You might disconnect the union between the meter and the downstream water pipe into the house and also disconnect the grounding electrode conductor from the pipe exiting the house leaving nothing (electrically) bonded to the water pipe exiting the hosue. Then no current would be flowing on the water pipe. We do not rule out some current flowing on the grounding electrode system since the ground rods are still bonded. The only usefulness of doing this exercise is, if there was considerable current on the pipe, to be able to see if more evidence of a bad service neutral, as shown by more seesawing voltages in the house, shows up and then we make a more educated guess as to the need to repair the service neutral.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Jump-start said:


> Its getting way to confusing. Draw a picture out.
> 
> And I don't get what you mean removing the water pipe union.


simple, separate house water pipe from the street, thus isolating it from shared gec. has to be done in home though because pipe would still be touching earth otherwise, etc...


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> simple, separate house water pipe from the street, thus isolating it from shared gec. has to be done in home though because pipe would still be touching earth otherwise, etc...


Code allows that, and its a good idea in cases like this. However, Id do it 10 feet underground after the pipe exists the home, that was you have another grounding electrode conductor.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Jump-start said:


> Code allows that, and its a good idea in cases like this. However, Id do it 10 feet underground after the pipe exists the home, that was you have another grounding electrode conductor.


yikes, i am not suggesting this separation as a permanent thing, its just so that some measurements can be made, etc.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> yikes, i am not suggesting this separation as a permanent thing, its just so that some measurements can be made, etc.


You could separate them entirely, the water company might do that here.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Jump-start said:


> You could separate them entirely, the water company might do that here.


not sure why, having it in place is not a bad thing.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

This thread certainly elevated way above DIY, way to much theory, experience, and opinions.... I'm not against it, but hard to keep this thread on tracks...


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## bernie963 (Dec 18, 2010)

for the heck of it, I decided to put my amprobe on my town supplied water pipe. Found current varying between 0 and 2 amps. Minimal use in house, 2 cable boxes, 2 tv's, internet router, a couple of wall wart transformers and a few lamps. While checking the furnace fired, blower cycled and it did not change readings. When the current changed the needle on the amprobe "jumped". That suggests either the refrig was cycling or it is an outside influence on the ground. Nothing else in the house was running. My service is 200a underground copper. 

bernie


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## TimPa (Aug 15, 2010)

Not all water supply lines are copper (conductive) thoughout the municipal water distribution system. It is becoming more common for them to convert to a high grade plastic outside the house. My recollection is that 10' of copper water pipe outside the house is considered adequate for a ground. 

i think copper pipe is on the endangered list...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

If there is metal water pipe exiting the house underground then you include a grounding electrode conductor over to one such pipe, preferably one with metal known to run for at least 10 feet underground. But you do not have to dig outside to verify or prove that metal pipe does indeed continue for at least 10 feet and you do not have to measure resistance or impedance of the pipe's contact with the dirt.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> If there is metal water pipe exiting the house underground then you include a grounding electrode conductor over to one such pipe, preferably one with metal known to run for at least 10 feet underground. But you do not have to dig outside to verify or prove that metal pipe does indeed continue for at least 10 feet and you do not have to measure resistance or impedance of the pipe's contact with the dirt.


Nope, but you do have to supplement this with two ground rods, for the exact reason of the unknowns....


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## a_key_move (Feb 18, 2015)

I have a similar issue. I recently had my electrical service upgraded (licensed electrician). And thereafter found that a current was flowing on the water pipe coming in and the bond installed. I have 200 amp service at the home with municipal water supply. The electrician installed two new ground rods, connected them back to the panel, bonded them to the incoming water pipe from the street and hot water tank. As far as I could see did everything right. I called the utility company about my issue. They sent a service tech out who replaced the service wires from the pole to the house. The wires were old but not in terrible shape. The tech said there was some melted insulation on the hot lines and some voltage drop which went away after the lines were changed. Current was still there tho after the line switch. Next, the utility sent out a crew chief who opened my meter socket and said he found my problem. He says you have no ground wire. he goes on to explain that there should be a ground run up to and connected to the meter socket and that should fix the problem. This hasn't been done yet (just found out yest) Does anyone know if that is code and should that solve the problem? I understand we use the 2011 NEC here.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

a_key_move said:


> He says you have no ground wire. *he goes on to explain that there should be a ground run up to and connected to the meter socket and that should fix the problem.* This hasn't been done yet (just found out yest) Does anyone know if that is code and should that solve the problem? I understand we use the 2011 NEC here.


These guys kill me, that won't fix what you are reading, because you can't stop the current from flowing on your water pipe... its just the way it is, if the water company has an issue with it, they can install a dielectric union. 

FWIW, our utility does not allow GEC's in meter sockets, but they have to be landed at the first disconnect, or anywhere before that point. i.e, meter socket, weather head, etc.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted by a_key_move View Post
> He says you have no ground wire. he goes on to explain that there should be a ground run up to and connected to the meter socket and that should fix the problem. This hasn't been done yet (just found out yest) Does anyone know if that is code and should that solve the problem? I understand we use the 2011 NEC here


The grounding in the service panel provides the same function and as was said above, not all will even allow grounding conductors in the socket. If the lack of socket grounding was an issue, many thousands would have issues. Sounds like back to school for someone.


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## bernie963 (Dec 18, 2010)

Stick is right. There will always be some current flow on the grounds. The question is how much. The service neutral should carry the most current when compared to the grounds. Here no grounds are allowed in meter box. This may vary from utility to utility. Where are you located?

bernie


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Your service should be working with no abnormal voltage drops before the grounding electrode conductor is attached. That is, hots and neutral/ground/messenger in good condition. After that, assemble and connect grounding electrode system conforming to code and call it a day without the need to check the current flowing in the GES.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

if there is no gnd wire in parallel to N from xfrner to service entrance, there should be little current on any other gnd path if the N is in good working order.

if OP disconnects the water service pipe at entrance to home, a voltage measurement from any pole to N should reveal if there's a poco N issue. just need to make sure some things are "on" so current is flowing from poles to service N, etc. if there's a N issue the voltage might read 115Vac or something, indicating a possible poco N issue.


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## a_key_move (Feb 18, 2015)

Thanks stickboy for the info. I didn't phrase my question the best. Solving the problem wasn't really the right question. Having read the earlier posts, I guess I meant to ask would this reduce the amount of current on the water pipe.I got the answer today. The same answer that several of you posted earlier to the OP at the start of this long thread.

An engineer at the utility called me this morning and talked about the issue with me. Asked me a few questions. And said yes, it is normal to have some current flow on the water pipe, it's a parallel path back to the transformer. He went on to say that he corrected the crew foreman who got ahead of himself. The lack of a ground in the meter socket was not necessarily the problem. And he says he tells the foreman to try and take a few measurements, not just diagnose. In my case, replacing the lines from the pole was correct due to the voltage drop and the type of insulation on the lines. He told me apparently there was some defective insulation from some of the lines years ago that tended to melt or crack. Whenever the utility gets a complaint about current problems and see that type, they replace the lines to eliminate it as a possible cause. 

Great guy. He walked me thru a lot of the theory, some of which was posted above. He said the cutoff for the utility is about 10 amps on the waterpipe. When it gets there or higher, they start looking into causes like open neutrals at the neighbors. Below that, they don't really concern themselves with it unless there's shocks going on or someone has damaged utility equipment.

He told me a couple of good stories. One being how the city was replacing a section of water pipe on a street. So they start disconnecting the water pipe to replace it, neglecting the fact that their pipe is a ground and don't jumper the pipe. So they begin systematically frying people's electronics and garage doors as they move down the street house by house. Which generated a lot of calls to the utility, and after investigation, they tell the city its your fault.

Anyhow, thx all for the replies.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

a_key_move said:


> Thanks stickboy for the info. I didn't phrase my question the best. Solving the problem wasn't really the right question. Having read the earlier posts, I guess I meant to ask would this reduce the amount of current on the water pipe.I got the answer today. The same answer that several of you posted earlier to the OP at the start of this long thread.
> 
> An engineer at the utility called me this morning and talked about the issue with me. Asked me a few questions. And said yes, it is normal to have some current flow on the water pipe, it's a parallel path back to the transformer. He went on to say that he corrected the crew foreman who got ahead of himself. The lack of a ground in the meter socket was not necessarily the problem. And he says he tells the foreman to try and take a few measurements, not just diagnose. In my case, replacing the lines from the pole was correct due to the voltage drop and the type of insulation on the lines. He told me apparently there was some defective insulation from some of the lines years ago that tended to melt or crack. Whenever the utility gets a complaint about current problems and see that type, they replace the lines to eliminate it as a possible cause.
> 
> ...


 Excellent info! :thumbup:

The engineer knows what he is talking about, and is willing to investigate a problem than just right it off. 


In terms of stories; water companies hate utility practices for one of those exact reasons. Broken neutrals are covered up via water lines, so until the pipe is taken apart its not known. 

Hopefully in the future codes will require a separate neutral and ground all the way back to the transformer but it is what is for now.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

Why would no earth fry electronics ?
Unless they had bad neutrals ?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> Hopefully in the future codes will require a separate neutral and ground all the way back to the transformer but it is what is for now.



What would that solve? The issue is the parallel path back to the transformer, cable tv and phone systems are also in parallel back to the transformer with a neighbors house. 


Wires get damaged, accidents happen. Educating people to be able to diagnose these issues is the real problem.... I was just on a service call where the water pipe was returning the neutral current to the transformer, utility company came and said everything was okay, I'm like, that's because the water pipe is masking the problem. :no:


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

stickboy1375 said:


> I was just on a service call where the water pipe was returning the neutral current to the transformer, utility company came and said everything was okay, I'm like, that's because the water pipe is masking the problem. :no:


 Several years ago we had a city water dept worker get seriously injured when he pulled a meter. There was no bonding jumper across the meter connection and when he pulled the meter he became the conductor for the house current. The dept now has a policy of clamping a jumper across the meter bibs before connecting or disconnecting the meter.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

danpik said:


> Several years ago we had a city water dept worker get seriously injured when he pulled a meter. There was no bonding jumper across the meter connection and when he pulled the meter he became the conductor for the house current. The dept now has a policy of clamping a jumper across the meter bibs before connecting or disconnecting the meter.


I thought this was always protocol? but i'm guessing i'm wrong.  


In the scenario I posted above, the house had froze due to no heat, and the plumber cut the water line, luckily, not much of a load due to this being a second home, but the arc was still very visible... He got lucky in my opinion.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> What would that solve? The issue is the parallel path back to the transformer, cable tv and phone systems are also in parallel back to the transformer with a neighbors house.
> 
> 
> Wires get damaged, accidents happen. Educating people to be able to diagnose these issues is the real problem.... I was just on a service call where the water pipe was returning the neutral current to the transformer, utility company came and said everything was okay, I'm like, that's because the water pipe is masking the problem. :no:



It would solve a number of issues including this one. Some of the same reasons why code now requires 4 wires to detached structures, clothes dryers and ranges. In a 4 wire system the neutral is never bonded to ground in the structure and thus isolated completely avoiding parallel paths. 

The issue is that equipment gets damaged without notice, and it would be impractical to measure every single service for a neutral break. I could loose the neutral lug in my meter and if my water line is continuous, my knowledge included I wouldn't catch on to it.

Many parts of the world us a TT system and to a lesser degree TN-S so when a neutral does break the grounding system is never left to take over. Its much safer in that metal does not become energized nor do phone lines burn up.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> It would solve a number of issues including this one. Some of the same reasons why code now requires 4 wires to detached structures, clothes dryers and ranges. In a 4 wire system the neutral is never bonded to ground in the structure and thus isolated completely avoiding parallel paths.





What do you think would happen if the neutral still opened? It would still burn up every electronic in the house. It's STILL a very big issue, the stray current is the least of the worries.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> What do you think would happen if the neutral still opened? It would still burn up every electronic in the house. It's STILL a very big issue, the stray current is the least of the worries.


If it was a 120/240 or 3 phase service you are correct about electronics failing, but the shock/electrocution hazard would be eliminated. Burning electronics are bad, but Id think electrified pipes and burning phone lines are worse on top of that.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> If it was a 120/240 or 3 phase service you are correct about electronics failing, but the shock/electrocution hazard would be eliminated. Burning electronics are bad, but Id think electrified pipes and burning phone lines are worse on top of that.


Fires start because of open neutrals, the shock hazard is a less of a hazard. But in either case, a hazard... neither one to be ignored. IMO, the electronics burn up instantly, shock hazards await for a victim.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Fires start because of open neutrals, the shock hazard is a less of a hazard. But in either case, a hazard... neither one to be ignored. IMO, the electronics burn up instantly, shock hazards await for a victim.


But keep in mind burning phone lines represent another fire hazard. The shock hazard is hit or miss... although if you run to turn off your main when things go nuts the metal panel and concrete floor might find you.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jump-start said:


> But keep in mind burning phone lines represent another fire hazard. The shock hazard is hit or miss... although if you run to turn off your main when things go nuts the metal panel and concrete floor might find you.


I've been on so many service calls with open neutrals, least case they burn up their cordless phones, worst case, they burn up their flat screen, very few cases of actual shocks.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> I've been on so many service calls with open neutrals, least case they burn up their cordless phones, worst case, they burn up their flat screen, very few cases of actual shocks.


But code requires all systems be grounded (bonded together). So if your home grounding electrodes becomes energized your coaxial and phone shields will carry the power back up the pole. An EGC to a gas furnace could do the same. 

I will find the ROP but open neutral were one reason behind disallowing all 3 wire feeds to out buildings... that and people latter adding phone and water lines.

If the UFER is bonded or the floor is wooden the shock hazard will the limited... but picture a metal panel and a concrete floor without a bonded UFER.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

dmxtothemax said:


> Why would no earth fry electronics ?
> Unless they had bad neutrals ?


Yes it would be bad neutrals that might cause electronics to be fried when a grounding electrode conductor was disconnected.

The GEC and earth ground might be carrying just einough imbalance current that the hot to neutral voltage for one leg was not too far above 120 volts. With the GEC disconnected, the cumulative resistance of any remaining paths from the neutral bus bar to the pole transformer neutral increased so the neutral current using those paths decreased. When this happened the hot to neutral voltage changed for the worse.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

Hello all,

I was overseas for work and pretty much abandoned my water pipe current issue, but I'm back and just caught up on all 15 pages again to refresh everyone's input. Sorry for disappearing.

I wanted to PM stickboy but I'm not allowed yet due to post count, so this is kind of directed at him but others can chime in too:

I know you said several times a plan so this is what I want to do:

1. Turn off Phase A and plug in some loads on Phase B
2. Measure current on water pipe
3. Measure current on Neutral

Then do above, swapping Phase A and B.

My question is probably simple, but where (and how) do I measure the neutral. I'm guessing at the breaker, but I don't know specifically where. Should I take a picture?

Thanks in advance, I need to get cracking on this because water is coming up through the driveway, so the town is going to open things up and want to put that dielectric union in soon I think.. 

I will update the thread with some data once I perform this test.

Thanks


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Clamp on AC amp meter. Lowes carries Flukes for around $90.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

I have a clamp meter and I know how to take the measurement on the waterpipe. what I'm asking is how or where do I take the measurement for the neutral


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Neutral current is measured by clamping onto the neutral itself entering the main panel. If the conduit is plastic or SER the neutral reading will be accurate.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

Also just to confirm and as initial simple data:

Clamp meter baseline (zero'd) is about .02A - .03A
All individual breakers turned off: .05 A reading on water pipe (at #1), .03 A on ground wire above pipe (at #6), .02 A on ground wire in between pipe (at #5)

^So when I have no power, it looks like I have nothing on the water pipe.

Only Furnace Breaker turned on with furnace blowing: ~1.50 A (at #1), .80 A (at #6), .30 A (at #5)

edit: I'll try to get corresponding measurements @ the neutral later, but my wife is cooking now and needs the appliances on.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

terps530 said:


> Also just to confirm and as initial simple data:
> 
> Clamp meter baseline (zero'd) is about .02A - .03A
> All individual breakers turned off: .05 A reading on water pipe (at #1), .03 A on ground wire above pipe (at #6), .02 A on ground wire in between pipe (at #5)
> ...


20 or 30mA, clamp meter, was that DC or AC setting? i can see that small current just from the high mineral water being in contact with lots of other things.

there's other piping in the pic so i suspect some current is being split and thats why you have the diff in readings.

any voltage readings?

be interesting to see what happens if you swap the furnace OCD(breaker) with a GFI one. can you clamp the furnace gnd wire to see what the amps look like on that wire?


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

concrete_joe said:


> 20 or 30mA, clamp meter, was that DC or AC setting? i can see that small current just from the high mineral water being in contact with lots of other things.
> 
> there's other piping in the pic so i suspect some current is being split and thats why you have the diff in readings.
> 
> ...


it was AC setting so I am basically ignoring that as you said it's probably tolerance or from the mineral water.

OK so I did the test and here are the results:

First a picture of my breaker and where I took the neutral reading-


LEFT PHASE TURNED OFF: 
Plugged in toaster and heat lamp and a few lights:

Current on Water Pipe: 2.75A
Current on Ground Wire @ pipe: (1.50A at location #6 from img above, .45A at location #5 from image above)
Reading on Neutral: 8.20 A

RIGHT PHASE TURNED OFF:
Plugged in toaster and heat lamp and a few lights:
Current on Water Pipe: 2.35A
Current on Ground Wire @ pipe: (1.30A at location #6 from img above, .40A at location #5 from image above)
Reading on Neutral: 12.40 A


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

how are you turning off phases? you mean all breakers off on one pole (side) ??

ok, now run same tests and clamp that gnd wire that is right behind the N (lower left in your pci), what do you get?

also, where that service N wire terminates in the panel, is there any visual signs of corrosion? is there any NOALOX in that connection? how old is that service wire?


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

concrete_joe said:


> how are you turning off phases? you mean all breakers off on one pole (side) ??
> 
> ok, now run same tests and clamp that gnd wire that is right behind the N (lower left in your pci), what do you get?
> 
> also, where that service N wire terminates in the panel, is there any visual signs of corrosion? is there any NOALOX in that connection? how old is that service wire?


sorry- yes turned off all breakers on one pole.

I'm back at work so I can try when I get home but I think i did clamp just that gnd wire and got very low current, one time 0.06A and one time 0.13A. I just forget which test case I was setup in when I took those measurements so I will redo them and write it down.

I don't think there are any signs of corrosion- an electrician checked the panel two months ago and said it looked good, so I think that is all fine. The townhouses were built 20 years ago so worst case they are 20 years old, but I don't know if they were upgraded at some point because I've only been at the residence for 2.5 years.

I'll also do this test this evening and will report back later:


> Measure voltage at one of your duplex wall receptacles. Plug in a hair dryer and turn it on medium. Measure the voltage at the other half of the duplex receptacle. If you notice a significant change like more than 10 volts, stop. If not, switch the hair dryer to high and measure the voltage yet another time.
> Less than five volts change with the hair dryer in high probably means there is no problem with your neutral. More than 10 volts of a change means you have some kind of significant problem somewhere


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

terps530 said:


> sorry- yes turned off all breakers on one pole.
> 
> I'm back at work so I can try when I get home but I think i did clamp just that gnd wire and got very low current, one time 0.06A and one time 0.13A. I just forget which test case I was setup in when I took those measurements so I will redo them and write it down.
> 
> I'll also do this test this evening and will report back later:


hmmm, your poco service is a 3-wire only. but it baffles me as to why you see very little on the gnd in panel but do see more on that bonding gnd wire that connects to your pipe. if those two wires are the same wire someplace then i would expect to see more current on that gnd wire that is in the panel. would be interesting to see the current reading if you bond those two gnd wires together.

where does each of those gnd wires go? how close is the water pipe to panel?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> sorry- yes turned off all breakers on one pole.
> 
> I'm back at work so I can try when I get home but I think i did clamp just that gnd wire and got very low current, one time 0.06A and one time 0.13A. I just forget which test case I was setup in when I took those measurements so I will redo them and write it down.
> 
> ...


Every other breaker, correct? Just making sure.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

If there is only current when your instalation is energised ?
Then that means there is a leakage somewhere between 
the earth system and a live electrical line.
Gunna take some detective work to find it








Good luck !


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

dmxtothemax said:


> If there is only current when your instalation is energised ?
> Then that means there is a leakage somewhere between
> the earth system and a live electrical line.
> Gunna take some detective work to find it
> ...


Keep in mind that in the US the incoming neutral is connected to the earthing system within a home (TN-C-S) supply. Any 120 volt loads will cause current when the system is energized.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

so the scenario changed a bit yesterday- the town came and dug up my leak and installed a full new water pipe line, and used the dielectric union to attach the pipe on the end closest to my house. 

So now my water pipe is electrically isolated from the water main. Current is now nonexistent on the water pipe (when it was 2-3A previously), so I guess it's going all to the ground rod now? 

I'll have to open up my panel again to see what is on the ground wire now, but didn't get a chance to because they were at the house for a while last night working on things.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

If no dimming or brightening takes place your neutral is fine. Open Neutral current could be going through TELCO shields but chances are they would have melted by now. 

As for ground it rarely if ever has a low resistance path low enough to mask an open neutral. You can certainly check, but in any case I highly doubt you will get anything over 1/2 an amp worst case going to earth.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

terps530 said:


> So now my water pipe is electrically isolated from the water main. Current is now nonexistent on the water pipe (when it was 2-3A previously), so I guess it's going all to the ground rod now?


the pipe may be isolated, but there is still a path there, the water itself is a fluid conductor of electrons.

with one pole of breaker off and you load down a single breaker on the other pole, measure the voltage between that pole and the panel N/GND buss. if its less than what a service pole should be (around 122v with +- % defined by your poco) then i suspect an issue with the N line back to poco.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

thanks joe- i'll check that out.

a coworker mentioned an idea- 
back when i turned everything off, no current was on the pipe. but he was thinking still about if it was coming from a neighbor. he said when all my breakers were off, i wouldnt see it show up since nothing is drawing that current. but when im up and running, i would see the amps loading up as i plug stuff in. So what if it was coming from another house, and now the dielectric union that the town put in actually is isolating my house from the bad neighbor. Then that would mean the current is going to find a new house to terrorize...

i wasn't around when the hole was all opened up- it could have been interested to measure the current on the town side of the pipe vs my side of the pipe when the cut was made, but now everything is buried again :/

i guess if someone else starts getting leaks in their water pipe, i'll know for sure its someone elses bad neutral. does that make sense as a possibility?


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## jreagan (Feb 20, 2015)

Absolutely. Google around for open neutral videos and you'll find exactly that situation. There was one that showed arc'ing in wall even when the meter was pulled.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

post #238 - you can have your main breaker off, even meter pulled, there could still be egc current into your home and out your wires.

the way to check if current is into your home but not sourced from your service wires is to (too late now since they put dialectic union in) make a joint (open union joint, etc) of your own and then bridge that gap with a single rectifier diode with a 1meg ohm resistor in series. you would only see a voltage across the resistor when current was flowing on the pos side of the 60Hz, the anode side of the diode would be the source side and would be an indicator if the source was you or someone else connected to the water pipes, etc.

if when any of your breakers are under a good load (say 20-30amps on one pole via a few breakers) and you measure the voltage between that pole and N, and if that voltage is within poco spec then you likely have nothing wrong with your poco wires (well, technically should be tested w/o panel ground on N buss, but gnd wire is typically high resistance compared to N), and then clamp meter N and gnd wire in panel to see what the diff is.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> thanks joe- i'll check that out.
> 
> a coworker mentioned an idea-
> back when i turned everything off, no current was on the pipe. but he was thinking still about if it was coming from a neighbor. he said when all my breakers were off, i wouldnt see it show up since nothing is drawing that current. but when im up and running, i would see the amps loading up as i plug stuff in. So what if it was coming from another house, and now the dielectric union that the town put in actually is isolating my house from the bad neighbor. Then that would mean the current is going to find a new house to terrorize...
> ...



If current is going up as more loads are plugged in it is safe to say current is not coming from another home. Current present with nothing turned on would indicate its coming from another home. What appliances are turned on in your home would have no effect on that. 

At this point with the water main isolated as long no significant line to neutral voltage swings (over 5 volts) take place I would call it good.

If a neighbor does have an open neutral, the remaining water lines will just see more current since yours is taken out of the picture. Of course any open neutral is bad, but finding which neighbor has it falls out of your ball game. But I do understand your concern though.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

One a side note, you wouldn't happen to have a pic of the circuit directory?


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

concrete_joe said:


> the pipe may be isolated, but there is still a path there, the water itself is a fluid conductor of electrons.


MAYBE !

Fresh water is not a good conducter of elecricity
it is pretty poor actually.
It has to be salty water,
or freshwater with impurities in it, 
the cleaner the water, the less it conducts.

But my guess is the bulk of the current was coming in 
thru the water line.

Now it's path is much poorer.
So a lot less current will flow.
If any at all.

:thumbsup:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Just call in an educated electrician at this point, the comments on this thread absolutely kill me.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Just call in an educated electrician at this point, the comments on this thread absolutely kill me.


Im not going to lie, I think at this point the OP is overthinking it. Unless the voltage is swinging around Id call it good.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

I concur. Way over his head on the subject.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> Just call in an educated electrician at this point, the comments on this thread absolutely kill me.





stickboy1375 said:


> I concur. Way over his head on the subject.


well the two electricians I've had come have been lazy and almost worthless. i basically tell them everything happening and they had done a couple measurements on the pipe or at the meter, taking 5 minutes between each one, then BSing a lot, and then charge $100-130 an hour. Sadly it's been harder to find 'educated' electricians willing to actually problem solve. Most just want to come and change a switch and charge $500 for it.

i dont have the kind of money to keep wasting on guys like that, on top of the money it costs to repair leaks/driveway that clearly are the result of an ongoing problem. 

but I guess I'm just asking for 2+2 and am obviously in over my head. I am so incapable of doing anything. I think it was someone else who alerted the POCO that there was a problem based on what I was measuring and they responded that their neutral was bad. Def wasn't me.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Considering an isolator was installed and nothing is acting up on your home I wouldn't worry any more. You will always measure a small degree of current on your GECs, there is no way around that. If a neutral is open at another home that is beyond your responsibility and impossible to figure out. 

I know you are concerned, but I think everything on your end has been fixed.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

i am not as concerned anymore now that the isolator seems to be working.

should I have any other ground rod installed or is that overkill?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

terps530 said:


> i am not as concerned anymore now that the isolator seems to be working.
> 
> should I have any other ground rod installed or is that overkill?


Overkill IMO. The exterior pipe is still in contact with soil up until the isolator, so in theory you already have 2 separate grounding electrodes (ground rods)


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> Just call in an educated electrician at this point, the comments on this thread absolutely kill me.


So what gives. If there is virtually no more amperage with the dielectric union installed. Was the current coming from the water main from somewhere else into the op,s house and up (or out) to his transformer ? 

Judging by the picture it looks like they installed it pretty far out so his water pipe is still considered an electrode. And. If current was on the water pipe because of his service it should still be there. Right ?


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

post #251, we wont know until some voltage measurements are done while some load in on the service feeders. if you dont see ~120v pole to N (w/o gnd hooked up) then certainly a bad N is there. 

certainly if the main breaker was off and clamp meter saw current on pipe, it was coming from some other egc and using OP's N and Gnd wires to return to source.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

These events are not hard to track down with some basic troubleshooting skills, I'm pretty sure I gave advice on what to start with, the problem is knowing if you even have a problem or not... This is where someone educated on this needs to come in, take the measurements, and determine if an actual issue exists or not, this simply isn't DIY type of work, it requires a lot of knowledge on how an electrical system works and what parts of an electrical system do what.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

ritelec said:


> So what gives. If there is virtually no more amperage with the dielectric union installed. Was the current coming from the water main from somewhere else into the op,s house and up (or out) to his transformer ?


Current will ALWAYS flow on a city water main, it has no choice, it is a parallel path back to the transformer, the dielectric union blocks this parallel path.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

stickboy1375 said:


> Current will ALWAYS flow on a city water main, it has no choice, it is a parallel path back to the transformer, the dielectric union blocks this parallel path.


it almost does. the wet/damp soil that surrounds the piping right at the union still passes current, less than metal pipe only, but still some current which will hop from pipe into dirt and then back to pipe right around the union.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Unlikely.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> it almost does. the wet/damp soil that surrounds the piping right at the union still passes current, less than metal pipe only, but still some current which will hop from pipe into dirt and then back to pipe right around the union.


Yes, usually milliamps and not enough to mask an open neutral. 

Our concern was that the OP might have an open neutral, and the union installed without anything burning up that means his electrical system is ok.


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## terps530 (Jan 30, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> These events are not hard to track down with some basic troubleshooting skills, I'm pretty sure I gave advice on what to start with, the problem is knowing if you even have a problem or not... This is where someone educated on this needs to come in, take the measurements, and determine if an actual issue exists or not, this simply isn't DIY type of work, it requires a lot of knowledge on how an electrical system works and what parts of an electrical system do what.


post #228- i believe i got the measurements you requested (the day before they put the dielectric in)
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/continuous-current-water-pipe-233969/index16/#post1871482


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Jump-start said:


> Yes, usually milliamps and not enough to mask an open neutral.
> 
> Our concern was that the OP might have an open neutral, and the union installed without anything burning up that means his electrical system is ok.


thats not what it means.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

joe, not even sure where you are going with your comments, but a GEC will not carry the imbalance of an open neutral, a city water main that has a neighbor sharing the same transformer  will though.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> thats not what it means.


What means what?

1. A grounding electrode be it a ground rod or water pipe only in contact with the earth 10 or even 25 feet will have a high resistance. That high resistance will not mask an open neutral. Lights will dim and brighten. This is what the OP has now, grounding electrodes only.

2. A metal water main interconnecting with metal city water piping under the street will have a low resistance. In most cases that will mask an open neutral (it will not be noticed by dimming/brightening lights) The OP no longer has this. 


...................................................................................

I am not sure how far this will go because its out of DIY scope but I will say it. If I was at the OP's home one of the first things I would do is a net current (zero sequence) test via amp probes or amp loop around all service conductors. With one leg loaded up with 2 space heaters this will give me an exact real time reading of current not retuning via service. 

With a healthy neutral add expect to see: if the home has ground rods only Id expect perhaps a difference 0.5% tops, coaxial lines maybe 1% and a home with gas lines perhaps 3% tops. UFER will add a bit to that as well. A city metal water line might give me as high as 45%. 

Another reading with main off. 

I will take notice of the incoming utility lines (size and length).

With the data given I will then be able to reach a conclusion if a problem exists or not. Advice and/or trouble shoot from there. 

Of course, no offence to anyone, you need to have the knowledge on how to interpret that data correctly. 

................................


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

And no, when I say amp loop I am not confused and referring to a radio antenna. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=amp...wntq-uAJEVHve_17G3pBi&q=amp loop meter&imgdii=_

http://en-us.fluke.com/products/clamp-meters/fluke-376-clamp-meter.html


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## bernie963 (Dec 18, 2010)

Earlier this week the town water dept changed out my meter. They do it every 10 years. I asked them if they have ever had any troubles with electric current when they change out a meter. The answer was a big YES. If they suspect a problem, they jump the meter with "jumper cables" before removing the meter. Both of the tech said they have been shocked in the past.

I also asked if the town uses dielectric unions on services, they do not.

Bernie


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

bernie963 said:


> Earlier this week the town water dept changed out my meter. They do it every 10 years. I asked them if they have ever had any troubles with electric current when they change out a meter. The answer was a big YES. If they suspect a problem, they jump the meter with "jumper cables" before removing the meter. Both of the tech said they have been shocked in the past.
> 
> I also asked if the town uses dielectric unions on services, they do not.
> 
> Bernie


did they ever once measure the voltage from section to section after removing the meter ???


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