# '00 Toyota Celica New Tires and Alignment yet Car pulls Right



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd take it back and just let them take a test drive.
Sometimes an alignment has to done outside the factory speck for different reasons.
EG: past body damage, having ran over something in the past ECT.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1

Take it back.

Check tire pressures as well.

You are also assuming that the machine is either withing spec or that the alignment was done properly. There is certainly an aspect of human error in there.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

For starters, you have 50% camber difference in the front. And camber DOES pull to the side.
Next, you had feathered tires. Which means, your tires were wobbling in vertical plane left to right. Which means, one of steering components is worn out, likely - tie rod end.
As result, you may have picture perfect alignment, as it's done statically, but have pull here or there driving.
DID THEY CHECK TIE ROD ENDS FOR PLAY BEFORE ALIGNMENT?
Next, you may have uneven tire pressure. Will pull towards the lower pressure side.
Next, you may have oh so dreaded radial pull, or conicity, which truly became a plague on new tires. You "got a good deal" tires, right? 
_Tires are manufactured by assembling components made of rubber, fabric cord and steel wire that are cured together in a mold. Under intense heat and pressure during the curing process, the rubber reaches a near liquid state before vulcanization takes place finalizing the tire's exact size, structure and shape._
_If a tire's internal components are misaligned as it cures, it is possible that unequal internal forces may cause the vehicle to pull to the side, even when it is steered straight ahead. When this occurs with a brand new tire it is typically due to conicity, a manufacturing glitch where a tire's tread has cured slightly cone shaped rather than in the desirable uniform cylinder shape._
_A tire that has conicity due to a manufacturing error will be apparent right after installation or immediately following the first time the tires are rotated. Because of this, tir*e manufacturers warranties only cover this condition early in the tire's life*._



_
If a vehicle has a pulling problem, the alignment should be checked (*including cross camber,* cross caster and thrust angle settings). If the alignment is at the manufacturer's preferred settings or appropriately within the range, the following procedure can be used to confirm which tire is causing the pull.
The following steps *must* be used to isolate a pulling tire. Click here for a downloadable version of these instructions.
*Step 1**Action to be Taken* Rotate the two front tires from side-to-side. Directional tires can be moved from side-to-side for testing purposes. The short time that they are on the vehicle backwards will not harm the tire.*
Results* 1.If the vehicle pulls in the opposite direction, the defective tire is one of the front tires.
*(GO TO STEP 2)*2.If the vehicle pulls in the same direction the problem is either with one of the rear tires or is not a tire-related problem. 
*(GO TO STEP 3)**Step 2**Action to be Taken* Rotate the front tire on the side of the car that is in the direction of the pull, to the rear of the car.
*Results* 1.If the pull no longer exists or diminishes greatly, the tire that was moved to the rear of the car is the defective tire
.2.If the pulling does not change, the defective tire is isolated to the front tire that was not moved in Step 2.*Step 
3**Action to be Taken* Rotate the two rear tires from side to side.
*Results* 1.If the vehicle pulls in the opposite direction, the defective tire is one of the rear tires. 
*(GO TO STEP 4)*2.If the pulling tire does not change, the problem is not tire related. The car should be checked for possible misalignment or suspension wear.*Step
4**Action to be Taken* Rotate the rear tire on the side of the car that is in the direction of the pull to the front of the car.*
Results* 1.If the vehicle pull becomes more severe, the defective tire is isolated to the tire that was rotated to the front of the car
.2.If the pulling does not change, the defective tire is isolated to the rear tire that was not rotated.
A tire diagnosed as a pulling tire is a manufacturer's defect. *The tire is covered under warranty only during the first 25% of tread wear. The defect is caused by the belts being incorrectly aligned during manufacture.*_


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## amodoko (May 29, 2011)

Okay, thanks guys for the replies. I just called them and they were happy to check out the alignment again. For some reason, it was out of alignment again according to their machine. The toe was off. They then swapped the two front tires and re-aligned all 4 wheels again. I test drove it and now it drives straight so I'm happy about that. 

However, they told me that it may have gone out of alignment due to a suspension issue or brake issue. There's a kind of "swooshing" noise you can hear as the rear tires rotate which made them think a caliper is stuck or something. It's hard to hear when you are driving, but I can hear it when I'm rolling in neutral at low speeds. 

But for now, it is driving straight, so I'll have to check if it stays aligned for good. The alignment is under warranty for 6 months (I didn't know this) so if it has an issue again, they said they will check the suspension and brake system to see if there is something throwing the car off.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

OP, you DID read what I said about feathering, right? Feathering is NOT a normal wear pattern. Something is not right. Also, alignment does not go out of true "somehow". It's actually very hard to happen, unless you hit something quite hard. What they could have done was to accommodate something in your suspension to make it drive straight. Usually, they know which way to skew toe settings, to make car drive straight, but that results in prematurely worn tires. 
What you should do now is to hawk those tires for unusual wear pattern and rotate them in crisscross manner every 4 or so thousand miles. Personally, I do not trust what they done.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

Hey, they did give you "updated" printout, didn't they? AFTER realignment?


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## amodoko (May 29, 2011)

Hey, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I had read in your post about feathering being an abnormal problem, but from what little experience I have and the information I have read in the past on feathered tires, it seems that the sources said the most common cause of feathered tires is an incorrect toe setting (an alignment issue). That's why I even decided to get an alignment due to all the information on the internet saying the main cause of feathered tires was an alignment issue and that the car simply needed a realignment. 

It very well could be a steering and/or suspension issue as you have said. Possibly even the brakes too. Maybe their machine was out of specs a few weeks ago too, I don't know. I hate this kind of troubleshooting work, takes forever to find the source of the problem.

They gave me a new printout for the new alignment specs as well. It basically showed that the front driver side and rear passenger side wheels were out of alignment (toe setting). I don't know whether to believe it, but that's all I got right now. I'll just have to keep an eye on the tires and rotate them regularly, as well as keep an eye on if the car ever pulls one way on the highway.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

I think you'd better take it to a new shop. When I was doing alignments, if it left the shop with the camber looking like that, they'd make me take it back and do it over again on my own time.

"However, they told me that it may have gone out of alignment due to a suspension issue or brake issue."

Couldn't they tell? They are a tire shop, aren't they? Shaking a front end is Tire Guy 101.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

OP, it's no rocket science really. Jack front wheel and grab tire firmly at 3 and 9. Vigorously rock it back and fore. If there is any play or clicking noise - that's either tie rod end or tie rod. Repeat for the opposite side. If you have play with hands on 6 and 12, it's hub bearing. It's that easy.
There should be no play in both positions.
I second Mort. That shop does not evoke trust. This is why when you find a good alignment guy, you let no one else touch your cars.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

*Tire Tread Wear Patterns*








*Worn on:*

*Outside Edges:* Tires that are worn on the outside edges have been under inflated. There is excessive contact with the outer edges of the tire and the road surface as the vehicle travels down the road.
*Center of tire:* tires that are worn in the center have been over inflated. There is excessive contact with the center of the tire and the road surface. Always use a tire air pressure gauge when inflating tires. 
*One of the edges*>: When the tire is worn on one side but not the other the camber angle is off either negative or positive. 
*Positive camber:* is when the top of the tire leans away from the vehicle. Negative camber is when the top of the tire leans in towards the vehicle. This can also be caused by bent or damaged front end parts: tie rods, ball joints, etc. 
*Tire is feathered:* when the tire is feathered across the tread* the tie rods are worn *or the vehicle needs to be aligned. The ball studs get loose in their sockets allowing the tires to toe in/out as the vehicle travels down the road. Toe in is when the fronts of the tires are closer together than the rears and toe out is when the fronts of the tires are further apart than the rears. 
*Tire is scalloped*: when the tire is scalloped or cupped across the tread it is usually caused by bad shocks or struts. This can also be caused by out of balance tires. Jounce the front end to see if it oscillates and test drive the vehicle to see if it floats and leans excessively around corners. Bad struts are the number one cause of cupped tires. Tire wear can indicate a worn steering or suspension component, an over or under inflated tire, or a misaligned vehicle. Visual inspection of vehicle tires is an important step in the preliminary inspection process


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## amodoko (May 29, 2011)

Okay, thanks for the tip, I'll jack the car up and try that trick out. I've changed my clutch and some other miscellaneous stuff on my car but have yet to mess with tires and alignment since I always heard it's not worth it without using the expensive machines that shops have. I generally dislike letting other people work on my car but I kind of gave in on this since buying the questionable DIY "alignment tools" and "tire balancers" would cost more than getting it serviced at the shop, plus its winter and about zero degrees outside.

After looking at the images of tire wear, my tires were either feathered or cupped. I heard people use both terms to describe my tire wear, but the image you posted shows they are not interchangeable terms. I'll have to post an image of my old tires to show you what they looked like. But basically, they would wear on the inside of the tires (I rotated my tires so I don't know if it was the rear or the front suspension that was at fault) but the outside of the tires would be fine. And they would have raised edges on the inside of the tires like "petting a cat backwards." 

It's funny, I was asking myself the same question that Mort mentioned. They said the alignment technicians aren't mechanics and aren't great at determining what mechanical issue is causing an alignment issue. They didn't have any mechanics in the shop when I brought in the car on Sunday that could look at my car since he had just left, so they just had an alignment tech work on it for an hour. Apparently the alignment tech they had working on my car may just be good at understanding and using the alignment machine, but not troubleshooting causes of misalignment. 

Also, I finally got around to taking a picture of my new alignment print out so I'll post it if anyone is just curious. 

I'm going out of town tomorrow so I won't be able to mess with my car till I get back next week, but I should be able to respond to any messages if anyone posts on this thread. 

Thanks for your help guys, much appreciated.

P.S. Just a reminder, the images of the tires below are my old tires that wore unevenly. They are not my new tires. And the alignment image is a picture of the second alignment I got done that at least made the car drive straight for now.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

You have scalloped tires. Not feathered. 

_*Tire is scalloped*: when the tire is scalloped or cupped across the tread it is usually caused by bad shocks or struts. This can also be caused by out of balance tires. Jounce the front end to see if it oscillates and test drive the vehicle to see if it floats and leans excessively around corners. Bad struts are the number one cause of cupped tires. Tire wear can indicate a worn steering or suspension component, an over or under inflated tire, or a misaligned vehicle. Visual inspection of vehicle tires is an important step in the preliminary inspection process _

Soooo... You had bad toe front left, and then ended with bad toe rear right.

Your camber in the front is WORSE than it was after the 1st alignment and still 50% different left to front on the front. Your alignment shop sucks, buddy.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

Btw, jusdging from my Camry, you may not have camber alignment provisions. Camber is set in place by the way KYB struts are cupping atop of the steering knuckle. Struts have special ridges to mate with hub. They might have given a little bit resulting in bad camber. There are camber bolts for this, bud. 

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f49/rear-struts-install-07-tch-29253/

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/s...0K.html?intcmpid=Product+Listings+Best+Seller


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Agreed tires cupped, weak strut / spring / lack of rotation...

His camber is fine, as long as both they are within ± .5° of each other and in manufacturers specs, it should not cause a pull or wear tires. If it were adjustable, I would set the left front slightly higher than the right to compensate for road crown.

What you do not see in the print out is the position of the steering wheel. If the tech had the wheel locked down slightly tipped counter clockwise when setting toe, the op gets into his car, holds the wheel straight the car goes to the right.

In my opinion, alignment print outs are often meaningless and are mostly used as a sales tool. Most (not all) of the fast food type techs do not know alignment basics and as long as it is green, it is good.

Either way, the first tech should not have left the car go.


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