# rewiring a portable generator



## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

I have a champion 4000/3500 watt generator I bought form Cabelas a year or so ago. http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/46516/

At the time of purchase Cabelas advertised this generator as 120/240 at 30A. My plan was to backfeed my electrical panel (with an interlock kit) just so that I could power my fridge and a few lights during a power outage. The generator sat in it's box for months before I finally took it out and inspected it. What I found was that the generator didn't support 240V. I was pissed and called Cabelas. Their service was horrible. I asked if I could return it and they said no. They said I had to deal with Champion. However, within a day they had their site updated and removed the 240V information on the generators webpage.

So now I'm stuck with a generator that can't be used to backfeed a circuit breaker. 

I did correspond with the Champion folks and they were quite nice. They told me the model I purchased operates in parallel. It has 2 -120 volt windings that are stacked to get high amperage at 120 volt. Separating the windings will give 2-120 volt hot legs (2x120=240 volt) that can be re-wired by someone who’s handy. An additional breaker would need to be installed and also the L14-30 receptacle. They said at 240 the gen would have 16.6 amps at start up and 14.6 amps running. 

I know that isn't many available amps. But I'm really just concerned with the fridge and a few CFL lights. 

Anyone have ideas how accomplish this?


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

speedster1 said:


> I have a champion 4000/3500 watt generator I bought form Cabelas a year or so ago. http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/46516/


I've got the same generator, and I have heard people talk about re-wiring it to 240V.

Actually it looks more complicated then you'd think...

Here is the 240V version, Page 20 has the schematic:
http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/46514/46514_manual-english.pdf

Here is the 120V version, Page 21 has the schematic:
http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/46516/46516_manual-english.pdf

You'll have to get two 15A circuit breakers in there (the 120V version has a 25A breaker)

You'll have to split apart the two windings... MW1 and MW2 are wired in parallel on the 120V version, they need to separated.

There is some sort of a terminal block or something shown on the 240V version which doesn't exist on the 120V version...

Of course you'll void your warranty, and if something does go wrong with it you may look like you are at fault due to modifying it...

I don't know what you paid for it--and not to rub salt in the wound--but I hope it wasn't $330 Cabela's is looking for it... I got mine shipped to my door for $255 from Advance Auto in June of last year... 

For now I bought a breakout 25' cable which plugs directly into the L5-30R, it's a 10 gauge cord, and it breaks out into (3) standard 120V receptacles. From there I run (3) #12 cords in the house... one to kitchen, one the bedroom (or living room) and one to furnace area.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

This can indeed be done.

Depending on how it's configured, you'll likely find 4 wires coming from the stator. If it has a single pole circuit breaker, two will likely go to one side of the breaker, the other two would go to one side of the receptacle. 

If this is the case, label one of the wires on the breaker #1. Label the other one #3. Label one of the wires on the receptacle #2. Label the other one #4. 

Now, disconnect all 4 wires. Splice #2 and #3. Start the engine and measure voltage between #1 and #4. If it's 0 volts, swap #1 and #2 and relabel them. Now you should have 240 between #1 (formerly #2) and #4. 

If so, the splice (#2 and #3) is the neutral, #1 is one of the hots and #4 is the other hot.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

This is the break out cord I got... 

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-25-Foot-Generator-3-Outlets/dp/B000289BAK/ref=pd_sim_lg_17


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Why can't you use the generator to backfeed a single 30amp phase of 120V ?
You would only have use of the lights on that phase, but a couple of lighting circuits could be swapped if you needed to get the lights for a certain area on the hot phase.

Reliance Controls makes transfer switches for 120V feed.

As far as producing 240V from that generator, I don't think it will give you what you are looking for. Those two windings should be running at the same phase angle if they are paralleled. If you put them in series, you will end up with 240V on a single phase (European style). American style 240V is 2 phases of 120V, 180 degrees apart.


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## insaneirish (Jul 29, 2011)

Oso954 said:


> As far as producing 240V from that generator, I don't think it will give you what you are looking for. Those two windings should be running at the same phase angle if they are paralleled. If you put them in series, you will end up with 240V on a single phase (European style). American style 240V is 2 phases of 120V, 180 degrees apart.


Residential power in the US is produced from a single phase. A single phase goes into a transformer whose center tap is grounded and becomes what we think of as a neutral. The most common name for this setup is split phase. It is not two phase.

By taking two windings on the generator and putting them in series, you are effectively just creating a larger secondary winding and increasing the voltage. By then tapping the junction at which you join the two windings, you are center tapping it, creating what we consider to be a neutral. This is akin to what the step down transformer powering your house does.

If you look at the difference between the generator schematics, the 240V version is doing exactly that.


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## biggles (Jan 1, 2008)

what is the model on that generator? do you have a 115V outlet and a 240V oulet or jusr 2-115V ones....


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

biggles said:


> what is the model on that generator? do you have a 115V outlet and a 240V oulet or jusr 2-115V ones....


Biggles this generator is 120V only. Not 240V.

It has an L5-30R, an RV plug (a 7-50R I think) and a standard 5-20R (like you'd find on your wall).

It is not setup 240V. The OP is asking how to re-wire the generator to be 240V.


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

I've been told I could backfeed a single 30A breaker in my panel and it would effectively let me use any of the breakers on whatever side of the panel I'm backfeeding. At this point I could optimize how i install my new panel making sure that the fridge and the most important light circuits are on the same side of the box. I guess thats certainly an option. I'd prefer to have the ability to access all circuits in the load center. 

Maybe I should just look into selling this generator and getting another one that can handle it. My curiousity has me wondering how difficult it would be to accomplish this. Sounds easy enough for you electricians but maybe a little more than I should tackle. I'd probably do it if I had a step by step instructions or video.

Anyone have recommendations on a low cost generator that would supply my 240V needs?


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## insaneirish (Jul 29, 2011)

speedster1 said:


> Anyone have recommendations on a low cost generator that would supply my 240V needs?


Harbor Freight has some.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

speedster1 said:


> Anyone have recommendations on a low cost generator that would supply my 240V needs?


Define "low cost"?

The Champion 46514 (the 240V version of what you have) is basically the same price as the 120V version... ~$330 from Cabelas, etc. Depending on what you could get for yours, you might only be out $100 or so?

Or, if you had some add'l money, and wanted a better solution, you could go up to a larger generator like the Champion 41332 (http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41332/) ... Costco sells them (in stock usually) for $600 I believe? They're 6500 running watts (almost double the 3500 from your current one), they're also electric start and REMOTE start... what this means is that if you know you've got a power outage likely, due to a storm, you can get yourself setup to go ahead of time... then if the power goes out, you push a button, generator starts, you flip the interlock, and you're all set... no need go out in the weather. Same goes for mornings and evenings... you don't have to go outside to shut it down for the night--just flip off the generator breaker off in the panel to take the load off, then hit the button to shut the generator down...

I have two friends who ended up buy the 41332 a few months after I had bought mine... in hindsight I wish I had bought it instead of the one I got because since buying it I swapped over to an electric tank water heater... so I have no hot water in an extended power outage at the moment, where as if I had the larger generator I could.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Do you actually have any 240 volt loads that you need/want to power with the generator? Or are they all 120 volt? Might be able to jumper the single 120 volt hot to two poles of a double pole breaker, it'd feed both busses in the panel, just would not power any 240 volt loads. Of course you'd certainly want to make sure you have a interlock kit on your panel before doing this!


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

bubbler said:


> Biggles this generator is 120V only. Not 240V.
> 
> It has an L5-30R, an RV plug (a 7-50R I think) and a standard 5-20R (like you'd find on your wall).
> 
> It is not setup 240V. The OP is asking how to re-wire the generator to be 240V.





theatretch85 said:


> Do you actually have any 240 volt loads that you need/want to power with the generator? Or are they all 120 volt? Might be able to jumper the single 120 volt hot to two poles of a double pole breaker, it'd feed both busses in the panel, just would not power any 240 volt loads. Of course you'd certainly want to make sure you have a interlock kit on your panel before doing this!


In all honesty there are no 220V loads in my home. My dryer, hot water, and stove are all gas. My Furnace blower is 110V. My reasoning for wanting 220 was to power both rails. If I could setup a jumper to energize both rails that would suffice. But is a code violation? Would this be accomplished by adding a two 30A single pole breaker below a 30A double pole and feeding one of the 30A breakers from the generator and connecting the other 30A single to the second pole of the double pole? I can't imagine this being up to code.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

I'd just wire it to both poles of a double pole breaker. Again, make sure you have an interlock kit on the panel, flipping this breaker on while the main breaker is on would create quite the light show in your breaker panel.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

speedster1 said:


> In all honesty there are no 220V loads in my home. My dryer, hot water, and stove are all gas. My Furnace blower is 110V. My reasoning for wanting 220 was to power both rails. If I could setup a jumper to energize both rails that would suffice. But is a code violation? Would this be accomplished by adding a two 30A single pole breaker below a 30A double pole and feeding one of the 30A breakers from the generator and connecting the other 30A single to the second pole of the double pole? I can't imagine this being up to code.


Imagine what would happen if the jumper that energizes both poles were to be in the circuit while the utility power was on......

The only legal way to backfeed a panel with a generator is to make it physically impossible for both the utility and generator breakers to be on at the same time. 

Rob


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

micromind said:


> Imagine what would happen if the jumper that energizes both poles were to be in the circuit while the utility power was on......
> 
> The only legal way to backfeed a panel with a generator is to make it physically impossible for both the utility and generator breakers to be on at the same time.
> 
> Rob


that would never happen with an interlock kit. The main would be off


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

speedster1 said:


> that would never happen with an interlock kit. The main would be off


True. An interlock kit makes it physically impossible to have both breakers on at the same time.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

theatretch85 said:


> I'd just wire it to both poles of a double pole breaker.


Hopefully some electrician will be along shortly to say why this is a bad idea, or maybe not? :laughing:

My thoughts--
First, would it damage any 240 appliances to have the same leg on both sides of the load? Maybe now you've introduced any addition point of failure if you're having to remember to throw your double-pole breakers off...

Second, if you have multi-wire branch circuits with a shared neutral, those rely on the two hot's being opposite. By keeping both the same you will potentially overload the neutral--in this case the generator is capable of putting out 20-25A, which means a 15A MWBC could have an overloaded neutral

Third, what happens when the next guy shows up and doesn't take the time to understand this setup and makes a mistake? 

It's better to do things correctly and safely then take short cuts--if you're in the dark in a storm, OK take a short cut to make the lights work and the fridge cold... but here you've got time to think and plan. You're intentionally doing things wrong over a matter of maybe $100-200 difference in what you'd pay for a replacement generator after selling the one you've got.

Or, if you wanted to keep this one, you could just do the single-pole interlock with one 30A breaker in the panel (and the next space empty) run out to an L5-30 inlet. Then you'd want to re-arrange your breaker box to be sure that your generator loads are all on the same buss----actually, that probably isn't code legal either? What happens to your 240V appliances if they have a single leg of power and not the other? Maybe you accidentally end up back feeding the other side of the buss through your stove or dryer?


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

theatretch85 said:


> I'd just wire it to both poles of a double pole breaker. Again, make sure you have an interlock kit on the panel, flipping this breaker on while the main breaker is on would create quite the light show in your breaker panel.


So you would take the hot and wire it directly to one pole, then put a short jumper from that pole to the other pole? That would basically power the entire circuit box with 110V and up to 30 amps?


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

speedster1 said:


> So you would take the hot and wire it directly to one pole, then put a short jumper from that pole to the other pole? That would basically power the entire circuit box with 110V and up to 30 amps?



Yes, but you probably can't put two wires under the same lug of the breaker, so you'd probably have to use two short pigtails to connect to each leg of the breaker.

It'd be the easiest way without rewiring the generator and for the few short times it would be needed in the event of a power outage.

It would be worth looking into if any MWBC's are installed, that would of course be an issue. 220 volt appliances won't be a problem, they'd just see 0 volts. It'd be the same as putting 2 single pole breakers for a 220 appliance on the same leg of a utility fed panel, measuring between the same leg will result in 0 volts. Only the 120 volt parts of the appliance would work in this case.


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

theatretch85 said:


> Yes, but you probably can't put two wires under the same lug of the breaker, so you'd probably have to use two short pigtails to connect to each leg of the breaker.
> 
> It'd be the easiest way without rewiring the generator and for the few short times it would be needed in the event of a power outage.
> 
> It would be worth looking into if any MWBC's are installed, that would of course be an issue. 220 volt appliances won't be a problem, they'd just see 0 volts. It'd be the same as putting 2 single pole breakers for a 220 appliance on the same leg of a utility fed panel, measuring between the same leg will result in 0 volts. Only the 120 volt parts of the appliance would work in this case.


Thanks for the info. I don't know if I have any MWBC's. How could I tell?


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

speedster1 said:


> Thanks for the info. I don't know if I have any MWBC's. How could I tell?


Excluding your known 240V appliances--if you see any breakers next to each other in panel where one has a black wire and one has a red wire, they may be a MWBC. If you have NM wiring (romex) you can look for 12/3 and 14/3 entering the panel, that's usually a sign of it.

My kitchen uses MWBC for the circuits under the sink--dishwasher, disposer, kick panel heater. When re-wiring the existing ~65 year old circuits the electrician decided to put some of the old circuits into J-boxes and feed with 14/3, the result is that I've got 4 old circuits which form two MWBC (plus the kitchen ones, so a total of about 3-4 I suppose).

Depending on how much of a stickler your AHJ and electrician are, you may (should really) have a handle tie between any MWBC so that they both trip and are turned off at the same time.

BTW, please pay careful attention to my sig :whistling2:


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

bubbler said:


> Hopefully some electrician will be along shortly to say why this is a bad idea, or maybe not? :laughing:
> 
> My thoughts--
> First, would it damage any 240 appliances to have the same leg on both sides of the load? Maybe now you've introduced any addition point of failure if you're having to remember to throw your double-pole breakers off...
> ...


I agree with you. Too many unknowns to risk doing something stupid. I will probably just backfeed one leg with 110v from the genset until I get another generator that can do 220. I'd prefer to keep with code.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

speedster1 said:


> I agree with you. Too many unknowns to risk doing something stupid. I will probably just backfeed one leg with 110v from the genset until I get another generator that can do 220. I'd prefer to keep with code.


What happens to your 240V appliances if they have a single leg of power and not the other? Maybe you end up accidentally back feeding the other side of the panels buss through your stove or dryer?


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

bubbler said:


> What happens to your 240V appliances if they have a single leg of power and not the other? Maybe you end up accidentally back feeding the other side of the panels buss through your stove or dryer?


I don't have any 220v circuits. All my appliances are gas or 110.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

It seems there has to be a way to get a full refund on this unit. It was falsely advertised.


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

I had an interesting conversation today with a Cabelas customer service rep. I decided I would call them and retell me story and see if I get a different outcome this time. I told the lady I had purchased the generator some time ago and told her how I later found out the generator was not what they had advertised. I told her about my conversation with the previous CSR and the emails I had sent where they acknowledged they flubbed the listing. She was surprised that they hadn't worked with me when I originally called about it. She said that due to the large amount of time that have passed since the original purchase they normally wouldn't accomodate a request like this but because it was their original listing fuex pas and the fact that the generator has never been started or even had gas in it they were going to take it back off my hands. They are going to have UPS stop at my house to pick the generator up (which I'm sure is not cheap). They will then either offer me a merchandise credit that I can use at a later time ( I checked the receipt and I paid $299 + tax at the time). She said if I want to order I new generator I can just pay the difference. 

So this time the customer service was much better than the previous call.

Only problem now is that I don't really see an ideal generator that I'd like to get from them. THe only two I'd consider are the Champion 5500 Watt shown here http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cham...tt=generator&WTz_l=Header;Search-All+Products but unfortunately it looks way overpriced when compared to comparably spec'd generators from other stores. The other 240V generator they sell in my price range is the Generac 3250 http://www.cabelas.com/product/Camp...rd1346497&WTz_l=SBC;BRprd1346497;cat104356980 which is 240V but is even less power than the model I'm returning. It sells for $469 which I'm fine with as far as price is concerned. I guess as long as it can run my fridge and some lights I'll be happy. I've heard Generac makes decent generators. I'd really like to find something in the 5500 watt range that sells for around $400-$600.

So I'm not sure what i should do. Maybe buy a kayak with the merchandise credit and then buy a generator somewhere else. lol


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

Quick update. I sent the Champion back to Cabelas and got a $328 credit. Purchased a Generac GP6500/8000 which should be plenty powerful for almost everything (minus my AC). Best part is I got it from Home Depot for $499 instead of the $799 it normally sells for. Now I just need to wire that L14-30 into my new panel and install the interlock kit. Overall a pretty nice upgrade, $200 difference in cost after tax.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Buy a Honda!


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## speedster1 (May 13, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> Buy a Honda!


Whats a 6500/8000 Honda cost? $2000? Not sure what you do for a living but too rich for my blood considering it will only get used 1-2 times per year at most.


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