# my kitchen reno - complete remodel (with concrete countertop)



## Knucklez

if you like this project, you might like some of my others:

http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=17525

http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=18518

http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=19861
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ok.. so i couldn't wait any longer on the old kitchen. water damage was getting too much, so i had to stop other projects and start this one.. and unfortunately its a kitchen, so this is painful.. so please be kind 

who ever knew this old house needed so much repair? i didn't.. but really, has been a joy to fix. just stressful at times. not to mention depressing when you have to turn down fun events with friends/family so you can "reno the house" all the time.. ho hum..

so onto the kitchen.. the highlight of this kitchen is the concrete counter tops we're going to put in. i'll be documenting that progress AS IT HAPPENS so we'll both see how it turns out at the same time .. to quick link to the *Concrete Countertops* section CLICK HERE

the nice thing about concrete is that its not that expensive, so if it dosen't turn out - just smash it with a a sledge hammer, bury it in the back yard and pretend it never happened.


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## Knucklez

went downstairs to turn off the water - a necessary early step. as i twisted valve closed it started to leak. 

i hate these old valves.. i've replaced everyone one in my house that has leaked - which as been everyone that i had to turn off. i suppose i could just re-pack the valve, but i hate these valves. i like those 1/4 turn ball valves, they seem much higher quality. 

in any case, the plumbing goes from this valve to a galvenized pipe that runs THROUGH the stairs.. then through a crawl space and up to the main floor kitchen. how rediculous is this? same with the galvenized drain.. 

you literally almost step on the plumbing walking down to the basement!

oh.. did i mention there is no vent? ya...its on the "to do" list


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## Knucklez

here's a pic of the countertops before the work really got started.

honestly, they were probably fairly high quality/expensive 20 years ago. they are melamine and chip-board, so not the highest quality, but still pretty nice. i'd like to replace them completely but that would be cost prohibitive.. so our plan is to paint them and add trim (wife's job). maybe after we win the lotto we'll upgrade to solid oak.


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## Knucklez

cleaned out all the cupboards.. removed the "lazy suzan" and slide out draws. these need a good cleaning, so i'm happy to remove them.

the dishwasher is planned to go on the right of the sink. and to the right of that will be the stove.

under the sink is planned to be open area, with shelves and baskets.. or something, i dunno, i don't decorate, i just do the work.

ripped off the countertop, and what do i find? mold.. even more glad i got into this project post haste.


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## Knucklez

a little bit of bleach in a spray bottle and steel wool should take care of that.

unfortunately its gunna get worse before it gets better.. much worse.

here is the plumbing. notice the bulging cabinets? that's from water damage. also more mold.. ok, to be honest, i knew the water damage under the sink was there for a while. but it was lower on the priority list.. but now it is gone as you'll see in the up coming pics. 

i'm not sure if my wife is happy that its now gone, or that she's pissed that i didn't do this sooner. ho hum... as a famous canadian says "if they can't find you handsome, at least they can find you handy". i guess i'm really in trouble.. cause he never did give a 3rd option.


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## Knucklez

the blue styrofoam, no idea who put that there. was there since we moved in. it gets cold under there in the winter, maybe someone thought they would try to insulate with some lose piece of styrofoam without any tuct tape or anything.


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## Knucklez

now the sink and cabinets are gone. i'll have to rebuild them later with new material. the cabinet on the left there is going to stay, but i can see down at the bottom the wood box that the cabinet sits on is swollen. it must have seen some water too.. i'll have to remove it and see how much i can save.

the cabinet that used to be just to the right under the red bucket (future DW location) has been removed for cleanup purposes. its in decent condition (actually you can just see the corner of it in the bottom left side of the picture below). i am thinking of tucking the dishwasher in this cabinet. i'll have to see if it fits.. will get back to you on that.


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## Knucklez

here is a close up of the old plumbing.

see the galvanized drain? also to the right is the water supply, which is galvanized with a copper threaded pipe. there was no shut off valve here, it was located in the basement. in anycase, i cut out all the copper so the pipes stick straight up. this made it easier to remove the bottom of the cabinet.


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## Knucklez

looks like there is some water damage on the pine plank subfloor (even below the 1/4 chipboard subfloor). 


there was a time when we were thinking of just paining the wooden floor. but i dunno.. this chipboard is not the greatest. its thin and in really rough shape. not sure if it will look good, even with 14 coats of white primer. 

i'll have to talk to the wife about a floor replacement job. maybe if i pull the rest of the cabinets off the wall, i can quickly lay down some "paint grade" plywood? 3/4" thick?

what do you think, good idea? bad idea?

-off to bed now.. will post more in a couple of days. look'n forward to your comments


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## Knucklez

as it happens my wife got very sick over the last few days and was at the hostiptal and all that jazz. the nurse comes to the house for a status checkup and says that i need to boil these instruments on the stove for 15 minutes to sterilize.. i'm thinking.. crap.. i don't have a kitchen, never mind a stove! 

so i bought me a hot plate from wallmart, nice GE double burner, and bob's your uncle. wife is all better now, and we can use the double burner to keep the food warm while hosting thanksgiving - with the food we make in our new kitchen! :thumbup:


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## Knucklez

so i notice some cabinets have water damage and some flooring.. 

the floor i have decided will need a good inspection. the chipboard is going to be thrown out.

looks like 3" wide tongue & grove pine under it.. 

i removed all the cabinets from the wall. this was harder than it looks because the 4" screws are monsters and the roberson heads where getting stripped. i ended up getting all of the screws up (after much effort!) except one which was too far gone to work with a screw driver. i tried to cut it out but just couldn't get the sawsall in there.

so i ripped the cabinet off the wall...


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## Knucklez

here is what i found in the corner written on the floor.

yes that's right.. there is an electrical wire running just under the floor. so they made a note, which was kind of them, to inform everyone not to put any nails here.

yup.. this is going to be removed and done right. might as well upgrade to GFCI while i'm thinking of it.


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## Knucklez

i moved the cabinets (except the corner one which was too large to get out the door) outside under the car port. they are sitting on planks of wood. ontop the wood i put some tarps. then i put the cabinets on the tarp. and then folded the tarps up and taped them in place. then i draped a monster tarp over the top. wrapped it in string to hold the tarp and weighed it down with some logs.

ps. that's the old counter top leaning up against the fencing.. 

pss. dad.. if you're reading this post and you want your tarp back.. sorry.. its in use now..


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## elbee

I hate to add more to your plate, but since you have everything ripped apart, what about doing a copper repipe? It pains me to see that copper/galvanized connection. Looks like it is a direct copper to galvanized with no dielectric union. Bad. I am suprised it isn't more corroded. 

We moved into a house 4 years ago that was turn key beautiful. The previous owners did an incredible remodel with lots of quality workmanship. But they didn't update the plumbing. Long story short, we had major leaking that caused a lot of damage and had to do a complete copper repipe. The house was beautiful on the outside, but very ugly on the inside. We are getting the house back into shape, but it has been a long process and probably will continue to be. 

I look forward to seeing your progress and glad to hear that your wife is feeling better.


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## Knucklez

thx for the kind words, and your point is well made. the plumbing stuff is all coming out. this will be a pain in the a$$ because under the kitchen is a smelly crawl space (to be fixed in a future project). but, got to run the new wiring for the DW in that area anyway... so might as well bring some copper with me.

i have a sink and a dishwasher in this kitchen.

from the sink, looking down the drain, the order of connection of things would be as seen below

all plumbing of drain is 2" ABS and vent 1.5" black ABS. i chose ABS because the rest of the house is done with ABS.

the drain line runs back to the main 4" ABS drain in the house in the basement. the main 4" waste line is some 20 ft. away from the kitchen! so i will slope the 2" kitchen drain at 1/4 per foot, for a total slope of 5" (round up to 6"). when i get close to the 4" drain, i will use 2 x 45 (or a "long 90")to angle the 2" kitchen drain so it can connect with the 4" main waste which is below the kitchen drain. 

tapping into the main house drain involves a 4" four-banded rubber clamp, and a 4"x2"x4" WYE to connect with kitchen drain (see picture below)




********* 
see credit in fine print below!


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## Knucklez

here is what the floor looks like with vinyl, chipboard, and another layer of vinyl removed. see the felt underlay? 

how to get this off easily?


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## Knucklez

here's a picture of the funky 1950's flooring.. oh, and see top right corner? they weren't kidding about the electrical under the chipboard subfloor... this wire must have been crushed good by the cabinets near the walls.

i can understand why they did this though. accessing the wall from the crawlspace is near impossible because the wall sits in the middle of a 18" thick stone foundation wall. and access from the top would be through the attic, but there is no attic access hole.. only other option is to run the wire along the ceiling, or floor. looks like they chose floor. doubt very much this is to code.. will have to be fixed.


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## Knucklez

this is cool... found a trap door. must have been for the original kitchen addition build. there must have been no access from the basement (there is a tiny hole now where the furnace has room for ducting). 

also confirmed that the joists are 1.5" wide by 10" deep, spaning 12ft. should hold weight of concrete counter. wall foundation is stone, about 18". thick. in all, the concrete countertops (which weigh about 400lbs when done!) will have its weight distributed over a stone foundation and two joists along the wall with the window. along the other wall it will span over the same stone foundation plus many joists. in both cases, i believe there to be sufficient floor strength to carry the weight. 

this will come in handy for access crawl space to do wiring and plumbing. :yes:


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## Krichton

I like your asbestos tiles


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## Knucklez

what? that's aspestos? i thought aspestos was for insulation.. not tiles. or are you speaking of the floor felt (grey paper stuff)?

or maybe just pulling my leg?...


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Knucklez said:


> what? that's aspestos? i thought aspestos was for insulation.. not tiles. or are you speaking of the floor felt (grey paper stuff)?
> 
> or maybe just pulling my leg?...


Asbestos was used for MANY building materials, including floor tile. (sorry to say so)


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## AtlanticWBConst.

More information on asbestos: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ashome.html

Asbestos Flooring: http://www.inspect-ny.com/sickhouse/asbestoslookB.htm

Don't panic!!

It's not the "end of the World". Do your research and educate yourself.
(Example: It takes alot of asbestos, over a long period of regular exposure to cause serious health issues. I am not saying that you should thro caution "to the wind", just that, if you did disturb some material, then learn what to do, to properly get rid of the rest of it.)

2 months ago, I tore out the 2nd floor (asbestos tiles) in my new (to me) 1930's farm house. EPA allows you, as a home owner to do your own removal. They ask that you follow the safety guidelines, especially, if it is exterior siding material. 

(Just so you know; it's the Commercial, Public, & Multi-Resident Properties, that fall under a different "jurisdiction" and specific licensing, qualifications, checks, inspections, protocol, etc.....in terms of requirements for removal and control)


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## Krichton

I don't know for a fact it's asbestos. I just know that alot of asbestos was used for decades in everything from plaster, floor glue, lineoleum, vinyl tiles, insulation and siding so the probability that your tiles are made of asbestos would be high. You can get these things tested very easily by sending them to a lab thru the use of a home testing kit.


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## Knucklez

thanks peeps, i'm not panicking. actually i was (briefly) trained in asbestos abaitment years ago. i just didn't know it was in floor tile.. all i ever saw was asbestos insulation around piping and also some flange gaskets.

agreed that labs can test, but i don't want to wait. i'll just assume that it IS asbestos and proceed accordingly. i think you might be right after doing some google research. this kitchen was remodeled in the 50's or 60's (based on galvenized plumbing and decore evidence). that was just at the peak of asbestos popularity...

anyway no worries here.. but removal of the felt will be a bit tough.. need to use water based product as sanding is definately a BAD idea.

how about removing felt with paint stripper?


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## baksdak

Wow, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Keep up the good work, and also keep up the updates with the pics! Can't wait to see it complete. In a month I am about to start a kitchen update myself:yes:


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## Knucklez

great, make sure you post your progress on this website. 

hope you read what i have done and learned what NOT to do.. ha.


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## Knucklez

found some good web info for my situation:
http://www.asbestos-institute.ca/buildings/tiles.html

i added some stuff, see purple text

*Supplies and tools* 
Broad, stiff-bladed wall scraper, or floor scraper.
 Utility or hook knife.
 Tank type vacuum cleaner with disposable dust bag and metal floor tool (no brush).
 Large size heavy duty impermeable trash bags (or closed impermeable containers) with ties, typaes, or string to tie shut, and tags for labeling.
 Hand sprayer or sprinkling can.
 Liquid dishwashing detergent or liquid wallpaper remover mixed with water to make a dilute solution (1 oz. liquid in one gallon of water).
mask with hepa filter
throw away clothing
gloves
6mil poly and tuct tape to seal off the room
plastic drop sheet to cover floor that is NOT being worked on (you don't want to step on the stuff and trail it around)

 *Complete removal of an existing adhered sheet vinyl floor covering*
If complete removal is required, follow these instructions:

*Reminder: Never sand an existing floor covering* 
Remove any binding strips or other restrictive moldings from doorways, walls, etc.
 Make a series of parallel cuts 4 to 8 inches apart and almost through the backing, parallel to a wall.
 Start at the end of the room farthest from the entrance door, and pry up the corner of the first strip, separating the backing layer. Pull the top layer back upon itself slowly and evenly at an angle that permits the best separation and most of the backing and top layers will pull free. Remove this strip, gently turn it over and roll face out into a tight roll. Tie or tape securely and place in a heavy duty impermeable trash bag or closed impermeable container for disposal.
 Repeat the above on the next two strips but do not remove anymore than a total of three strips at this time.
 Remove the felt remaining on the floor in the stripped area by _wet scraping_. Wet scraping is done as follows:
Pour the detergent solution into the sprayer or sprinkling can.
 Thoroughly wet the residual felt with this solution. Wait a few minutes to allow the solution to soak into the felt.
 Stand on the remaining floor covering (not the felt) and use the stiff-bladed scraper to scrape up the wet felt. Re-wet the felt if it dries out or if dry felt is exposed during scraping. Pick up the scrapings as they are removed from the floor and place in a heavy duty impermeable trash bag or closed impermeable container. Scrape all felt from this floor area before proceeding further.
 Repeat the above on the next series of strips. Do only one three-strip area at a time. Stand on the remaining floor covering or clean floor (do not stand on the felt) to scrape up the felt.
 Repeat this operation until the felt has been removed from the whole floor. Close full bags tightly, and seal securely for disposal. Identify with a label stating "Caution *** Contains asbestos. Dispose in an approved landfill only."

damp (not wet) mop the floor with throw away cloth.. i.e., use a "swiffer" or microfiber mop with sprayed solution on it.

When the whole floor has been cleaned free of felt, let it dry and vacuum up with a wet/dry vac with hepa bag installed any dirt using the vacuum cleaner with the metal floor tool.

*Reminder: Do not dry sweep.* 
Position the vacuum cleaner so that the discharge air does not blow on the floor being cleaned.
 Carefully remove the Hepa rated dust bag from the cleaner and place in a heavy duty impermeable trash bag or closed impermeable container for later disposal.
 When the floor is dry, it is ready to have a new resilient floor covering installed. Follow the floor covering manufacturer's instructions (or www.diychatroom.com)  .


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## ACobra289

Are you planning on doing the counter tops yourself? Do you just use reg concrete or something special?


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## Knucklez

ha.. i will EVENTUALLY get to the concrete countertops.. promise. 

here is a website that someone else documented their concrete countertop experience:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Concrete-Countertops-for-the-Kitchen---Solid-Surfa/

yes, i am doing this project myself. it will be my first attempt. i have all the tools and supplies. as you may have noticed from this thread and my other ones, i detail every thing i can and also discuss my philosophy of WHY i did it this way, or that way. i try to show the REAL challenge of a DIY project, and with some fearless attitude, to overcome... well, as best as can be expected for an ameture. 

i read the book and watched the video, did lots of web research. 

got products from and instructions from:
http://www.concreteexchange.com/index.jsp

the canadian reseller is:
http://www.shopinterstar.com/

the tools i purchased from ebay, i.e. variable speed double insulated 4" wet grinder, and concrete grinding pads, various grits. 

i also purchased the decorative add-ins from ebay.. but i can't give you any hints on this until i get to that point of the kitchen remodel :wink:

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

ok.. so back to this felt removal. this is a lot more difficult than it looks. the felt will scrape off after being sprayed with soap/water mixture and use of a 4" drywall knife.

i tried excacto blade and paint scraper.. they were both a waste of time. it took me almost an hour to scrape 3 boards, about 4' long with use of the paint scraper.. yes it actually exposed the wood.. but wow, what an effort!

so i think i'll go back to use of the drywall to remove the GREY felt paper. then i'll use a sander to remove the underlay stuff.. i don't know what this is. its tough as leather. is it glue? is it the felt after being compressed for 40 years? its basically merged itself with the actually wood and is freak'n impossible to remove.

but i think if i remove the grey felt to get to this leather like under belly.. i can just sand that off.. i don't want to use a sander.. but looks unaviodable if i want to restore the wood.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

ok, whoever thought it was a good idea to GLUE underlay to the floor needs a good boot to the nards..

this is a lot of time consuming work.. wetting.. scraping.. and repeat. 

not sure if the floor is salvageable but at least it won't have potentially dangerous material and nobody in the future will have to deal with it.


coming to the end now thank goodness! i'll post some pictures tomorrow so you can help me decide to proceed or lay down some plywood :laughing:


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## Knucklez

ok.. the floor scraping is done and all the grey felt underlay is gone. you can see that the wood is stil mostly chocolate brown colour.. this is from a fine layer of glue that i couldn't scrap off. this will have to be sanded off.

in the top right corner you can see some wood that did not have felt under it. notice each strip of hardwood is a different colour, light/dark/light/dark. that's interesting. must have taken them a long time to do back in the day.

next up --> remove old plumbing, add new plumbing (with dishwasher extension) and a vent.


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## wombosi

good luck man. looks like a lot of work. 
i hope my kitchen isn't this bad in the house i'm buying.

got a few nice chuckles out of your writing.

how old is your house?

thanks.


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## Knucklez

it really depends on who reno'd your house 30 years ago.. was it 

a) jimmy with a hammer?

or

b) someone who cared?

sorry... i'm frustrated. i just took the drywall off where i need to run the vent to roof and i see so many problems with how this house was reno'd in the past... open another can of worm because i can't just leave it. i'll post pictures tomorrow (batteries are dead in the camera from all the pics i took!) with some discussion. 

my house is 90 years old. what i love about old houses is:
-it is the character 
-unique layout 
-overbuilt everything (atleast originally) including massive foundation 
-materials used like hardwood floors & trim (nothing flatter than a stucco wall) 
- opportunity to DIY customize the house to your exact design without it costing arm + leg
-nice community 
-huge yard

what i don't like about old houses:
- some materials need to be removed (like knob&tube wiring or grey felt underlay!)
- lack of exterior foundation water drainage (thankfully my basement has never seen water)
- small basement, only 5'5 deep
- previous owners who didn't follow code, or at least TRY to follow code

everything that is in my "don't like" pile is fixable though, so that's really another plus. but it takes a lot of hard work & time (i barely scratched the surface of all the work wife and i did on this house with my posts on this message board).

anyway.. i'm probably going to need some advice on this vent. check back tomorrow for pictures.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

here are a list of issues i see with this windows.. this is from a non-pro and first glance.

let's play "eye spy with my little eye"

1) the 4x4 studs from the floor do not support the window.. the two are cut short and serve no purpose.

2) the horizontal wood under the window does not extend to the side joists and the 4x4 studs to not reach it either (what is holding it in place? is it nailed to the exterior sheathing?) 

3) the studs along each side of the window do NOT extend to the ceiling.. that's wierd.. but i guess that' what happens when you buy standard 8' 2x4 and you realize the room has 9' ceiling! 

4) vapour barier is not tied in at the top or bottom and no tuct tape.. might as well not even be here

i hope the picture improves when i remove the pink insulation and see what is really going on..


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## Knucklez

thankfully it wasn't as bad as i thought it was going to be..

there is a wood structure holding the window in place (see below the window). 

the side wood framing which does NOT extent to the ceiling.. i was thinking of just tying them in to the studs that are near by using horizontal 2x4. probably not needed as the window has been fine for many decades.. but still..

when i pulled away the pink insulation i see some black lines. (see photo below). i think this is from moisture getting through the pine plank sheathing and then some mold forming. still, its in much better shape than i expected! i will fix this properly be putting house wrap on exterior (but that is a seperate project to be done in a couple of months)


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## Knucklez

still am struggling how to do the vent properly. i don't want to touch the wood framing under the window if i can help it.

any thoughts?


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## Knucklez

here is my plan.. requires 2 braces so that vent can run horizontal THROUGH two studs..

the GREEN is the vent. 




and the BRACE


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## Knucklez

went to HD tonight.. they didn't sell any braces. 

need to goto plan B...

but i did by a 3" neoprene roof vent and some roofing tar. i was going to do this job.. but then the hockey game came on --> sorry i'm canadian, must watch the stanely cup!


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## Knucklez

took some time off this project to work on another. needed to research, purchase and organize the exterior work planned for later this summer. took some time to do this.

ok back to the kitchen remodel. i supported the one side of the window with a 9ft board floor to ceiling. on the other side i have a 2x6 which is not flush with the wall unfortunately (this sticking out piece will be finished properly inside the cabinet under the sink and not viewable). i'll notch these wood bits so i can sneak a 1.5" vent pipe in there.

i cut a hole in the ceiling took a peak in the attic. surprising how good shape its in. some mold around the edges where the eaves overhang. this is from roof neglect years ago and lack of "ice shield". there's an ice shield now as i had it installed 5 years ago on entire roof.

anyway, now i need to cut a pilot hole to see where this is coming through the roof. and then install the 3" kitchen sink vent through the roof and flash it. this is a bit tricky because my ladder isn't tall enough to reach the roof from inside the kitchen. its just 6' ladder, and the roof is 12ft. away. 

with this kitchen ceiling hole cut i can take the time to add some more insulation. will probably just blow in loose celulose.

i'll post details and photos of this process when its ready.


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## Knucklez

it has seriously been raining every day. i can't get on the roof to do the vent. but the drain line is intact. i tested it before final connection in the basement by dumping a cup of water down the kitchen drain and making sure i got a cup of water out.

all galvenized plumbing removed. wow, now i can walk down my basement stairs without risk of stepping on the plumbing! i can't believe it took someone 50 yrs to fix this. ho hum..

now for the copper plumbing. this is a bit more tricky given little room to work in crawl space. 

taking brake to catch up on some school projects & study for exams.. will post again soon.


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## Knucklez

yep, crawl space plumbing pretty much sucks. 

don't let anyone tell you that plumbers to earn EVERY penny they charge .. :yes:


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## Termite

Heck of a project there knucklez.

Venting that sink might be easier than hacking a hole in your roof if you haven't done that yet. A studor vent could be installed in the back of the cabinet under the sink. That'll usually take care of venting the sink. 

If you end up needing to drill through the studs to run a vent, Simpson and USP both manufacture stud shoes that surround the stud on three sides and add strength back to an overdrilled stud. They're attached with 1-1/2" 10d nails.


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## Knucklez

thank you for the good advice. 

i can not use studor AAV in my case because by code in ontario they must be installed ABOVE the flood rim of sink, not the P-trap... so it would have to be placed in the wall..
but then rule number two comes in, when inside a wall that wall must not be exposed to freezing temeprature... i.e. can not be an external wall. so it's a no go for me.

as for over drilling the stud, i might be OK because the dishwasher is not installed flush to the wall.. it actually has some room and all i need is about 1" so.. should be OK. my counter tops are roughly 25.5" wide + 2" overhang.. and my dishwasher is 22" deep + 2" for door.

so just might have room without having to drill more than 1/2" .. we'll see. 

back to plumbing..


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## Knucklez

plumbing rough is done. now need to properly plan a kitchen electrical solution. a lot of this was not done to code... too bad the price of copper has gone up! yikes..


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## Knucklez

here is what i read in at ESA 

_"The adjacency requirement as stated in Rules 26-722(b) and 26-726(3) has been deemed to offer no added safety value to an installation. The Canadian Electrical Code has deleted the adjacency requirement in the next edition."_

here is the proposed plan..


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## skipjack

Knucklez, how's your kitchen coming along? I have a very similar project going on at the moment... so, I'm on the edge of my seat.


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## Termite

How's the project coming? Catch us up!


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## Knucklez

hey thanks for the interest.

sorry,i have been busy re-siding my entire house. i know, i know .. the old DIY addage "never start two projects at the same time" but ... it just fell in my lap to do it this year and right now. so i did. took 6 weeks of INTENSE and DEDICATED labour and many friends & family. you know, the good kind, the great kind, the type that show up _without being asked_ and some were even on vacation!

wow.. my wife and i were humbled by the quality of friends & family. i hope we get the opportunity to repay the favour.

this weekend i am finishing up the siding, just cleanup and some foundation touch ups.. then back to kitchen reno in FULL FORCE. well.. around working full time and attending masters of engineering classes.. and ... well.. i'll see what i can do to accodate. 

my board & batton project --> CLICK ME


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## Knucklez

ok, that outside job took a long time. but now i'm back in the kitchen for a few days. 

i lifted the old vynel floor in the pantry just beside the kitchen and its floor is pine plank. too bad it doesn't match the rest of the kitchen. it is also recessed 1/4" .. as if it were meant for tiles... :whistling2:

so here is the order of events:
1) kitchen wiring (i bought all the stuff i needed earlier today)
2) insulation and vapour barrier
3) drywall tape , sanding and repeat
4) refinish floors
5) install cabinets
6) reinforce cabinets
7 ) start the concrete counter tops...

my wife decided she wants to put the fridge where we have cabinets right now.. so i must do some carpentry prep work.. don't hold your breath, but we'll get to the concrete counter tops this year promise!

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

tra la la... sucks living without a kitchen for so many months. school work, exams and working full time and now long commutes in the winter are killing. no time to work on this.

will it be done for christmas? let's hope so - my marriage depends on it (just kidding .. i hope?)


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## kayliekitchen

I can tell that you're doing a great job being a DIY expert.


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## Knucklez

oh.. i wouldn't say "expert". you should see how long it takes me to cut a piece of drywall to fit around a socket. ha.

so, wife decided to move fridge to new location. now i must cut cabinets and remove them to allow for fridge. 

now she wants an island too, but i like this idea so i don't complain (much).

the wiring took 2 guys 2 days. yikes!


----------



## Knucklez

here is a picture of the vapour barrier. the old stuff was like suranrap it was so thin. the new stuff is much thicker. 

ps. the dangling wires are from the under cabinet lighting (controlled from wall switch!) and will be tucked up and secured at a later date.

notice the cabinets cut to allow room for fridge (left side of pic below)










prepping the wall for denshield backer board. the denshield has a vynl side to it which is waterproof, high mold resistance and ribbed surface for easy tile grip & easy to work with. great product for kitchen backsplash!


----------



## cocobolo

Hi Knucklez:
Just joining you from the west coast. Great project.
I note from an early post that you estimate the counters to be 400 lbs. That would only be a little under 3 cubic feet of concrete, right?
It sounds as though you may have got the idea from Fu Tung Cheng. He is certainly the guy who has popularized the concrete countertops. 
Are you still on with the concrete?
Unless you are going to have a very thin countertop, I would think the weight may be considerably higher, no?


----------



## Knucklez

i am absolutely still doing this project. i am just very slow. i am currently tape/mud of the walls right now. i struggle with getting the paper tape to NOT have bubbles and to go on flat. ugg.. sand/patch/sand/patch.. i suck at this.

anyway, according to fu-tung's website i will use about 3ft^2 of concrete. he recommends 6 bags of 60lbs mix. add some rebar and you're looking at about 400lbs. 

my floor is very sturdy. it rests on 18" thick stone foundation and the joists are all 2x10 or 2x12 (they vary). the floor is hardwood tounge&grove. i have no doubt that it can support this weight and a heck of a lot more so i'm not at all worried. my cabinets on the other hand are chipboard 1970's. they will get spruced up with paint and trim and new hardware to make them modern_ish. but they will not hold the wieght of the counter. so i will be reinforcing my cabinets. i will show lots of pictures of how i did this in good time.

.. don't hold your breath :laughing:

thx for your comments and keep checking back for updates.

Knucklez


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## cocobolo

Thanks for the update. It sounds as though you are not putting enough mud on the walls before you put the tape on. If you are using the self adhesive tape, then of course you just stick that on the walls first, then apply the mud. When you are using the paper tape, which it sounds like, spread the mud on the joints, then add the paper tape. Run your trowel over the tape just once and leave it alone. All you are trying to do at this point is to get the air out from behind the tape.
Absolutely no doubt that your floor will handle the load whatsoever. That wasn't my question. How many square feet will the concrete countertop be?
And how thick are you planning to pour? It sounds as though it will just be the island.
I have two of FTCheng's books, and he goes into quite a lot more detail there.
If you don't have the concrete countertop book you might find it to be a good investment. Or perhaps see if your local library has one. Doesn't cost anything that way.
Happy New Year!!!


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## Knucklez

the countertop is 2.5' wide, by roughly 8' long and 2" thick. for the area under the cabinets, around the sink and above the dishwasher. originally it was going to be much more, but now the fridge is taking up a good portion of the counter space. 

the island is a future project. it might also be concrete but we'll see how the countertops turn out first. 

i have his book from the library, and i bought his DVD which is really good (better than book IMO). really, it seems straight forward process, simple but labour intensive.

i am putting paper tape on and i followed your technique.. still i have problems. hey, this is clearly something i am NOT good at! but atleast all the tape/mud is now done! :thumbup:

my wife's job is to white wash the walls to get ready for painting. that's a big job really. wash & paint. while she is doing that i am preparing the floors for sanding & refinish. 

then cabinet install + support for heavy countertop. 

all the best in 2009 to you and your family.

my new years resolution, finish this dang kitchen  ! lol

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

i'm currently strapping my ceiling cause its in rough shape and also because according to tin ceiling supplyer guy, the tin must be stapled to a wood surface (not plaster, and not drywall). i am using 1x3 spruce strapping. the screws are 2 1/2" #8 wood screws, they are longer than normal because i have to get through the strapping, then the plaster, then the lath and _then_ into the joist. i will then put up some 1/2" thick, 4'x8' sheets of chipboard as the surface for the tin ceiling installation.

straps are hung perpendicular to joists in attic

the joists are hard to find, and stud sensors are no good in my case. i rely on finding the first one, and then 16" on center with measuring tape to find the rest of them. and if you miss the stud, you'll know it cause the screw just spins & spins. so take it out, move it over a bit and try again. simple.

also, notice the wall above the cabinets? that's new drywall that i had to put up, that entire strip around the whole kitchen. why? because there _used_ to be a drop ceiling in here and i guess the original installer "hid" the unfinished wall since you couldn't see it. there was no insulation there or vapour barier or anything. you could see the exterior sheathing! 

so i had to fix it and do it right, ack, things you find in an old house reno!



handy spacer bar keeps straps parallel and 16" on center:


----------



## drtbk4ever

Keep up the posts Knucklez. I am loving this story. It is like a great adventure and you are a funny man. I guess having a sense of humour on a project like this is a requirement.

Can't wait to see the finished product.

Cheers.


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## cocobolo

Hey!
A post from an Edmontonian.
Small world, isn't it?
Two of our neighbours on Ruxton are from St. Albert, right next door to you!
How about that.
Knucklez is a great guy isn't he?
He'll get there I'm sure.
Always seems to take longer than you think to do these things, especially when it is a learn-as-you-go project.
But that's half the fun of it.


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## Knucklez

drtbk4ever said:


> I guess having a sense of humour on a project like this is a requirement.
> Cheers.


so true! :laughing:


wife gave a name of style to our kitchen --> *Up Market General Store*

_i kinda like it!

_so we went to the antique store so she could find items that helped bring out the essence of our kitchen and she found this lead stained glass window. 









so i boxed it into the wall.









and she's excited and optimistic about the kitchen again.


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## cocobolo

Hi Knucklez:
Seeing that lovely stained glass window has reminded me of many similar windows over in Nanaimo. There is a sizeable section of town where all the old houses are. Pretty much every one of them has several of these charming windows.
Many of these older houses, which are all quite small, are being removed for replacement by an ugly modern box. Fortunately the windows are being saved.
There is a local demolition outfit which carefully takes these windows out and makes them available for resale.
Our friend John, from the other end of the island has some in his place, they look great.
Glad to hear the Mrs. is getting excited again!
This is the only pic I can find right now of one of John's windows.


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## Knucklez

yes, very nice. those windows are worth saving as they can give a room that "certain something". its impossible to replicate the old world feel.

plus those old windows can sell at a pretty price. ours was $110. admittedly i should have negotiated the price more aggressively, but it makes Mrs. happy so worth every penny :thumbsup:


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## cocobolo

Knucklez: At only $110 you stole it. Even the smallest ones here start at $295 and go up. Waaaaay up.


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## Knucklez

i'm trying to trim out this window with quarter round. i think i need a coping saw cause it just doesn't look right?

i was all bummed until i read your post. now you made my night - thanks!:thumbup:


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## cocobolo

You should be able to cut the 1/4 round with your miter saw and get a perfect fit.


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## Knucklez

that's what i thought, and i have a really good bosche sliding compound miter saw (purchased for board & batten siding job). but i think there is something fishy about mitering quaterround because of its rounded surface. it just doesn't line up right.. i dunno.. its a small job so i won't worry too much about it.


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## Knucklez

today my father came over and helped me install the sink exhaust through the roof. a bit tricky in the winter time!! we had to use hot water to melt the ice off the shingles! sorry no pictures, i thought we were lucky enough no injuries to risk going back up on the roof with the camera .. though i still believe it would be a soft landing in the snow. all's well that ends well.

the roofing tar is rated for applications wet/dry and as low as -10C so its good. pretty straight forward, i used "ask the builder" installation video as a guideline. see it HERE.


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## Knucklez

i spread 3 bags of loose cellulous around in the attic with my hands. i had some left over from a few years ago. might as well use it up! 

i sealed up the attic access hole (being sure to insulate the hatch). now the ceiling can be finished strapping and chipboard put up. just intime for winter freeze, its -20C outside!

got some painting to do this weekend, and also off to toronto to see about some kitchen backsplash tiles. hopefully will also get to refinish the floors but this is ambitious. 

my next semester of school has started and no functional kitchen yet.. joy 

Knucklez


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## cocobolo

That's what keeps life exciting!!


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## Knucklez

part of our chimney is exposed in the kitchen. about 50 years ago, it was covered in some sort of mortar to make is smooth & then wall papered. 

check out that funky teapot!


recently (1970's?) it was strapped and dry walled.

wife and i took drywall off as we were hoping for red brick underneigth. 
..no such luck 

then we tried to chip away the mortar to expose the brick
..no such luck 

so we are going to go over it with some red brick veneer
..wish me luck!


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## cocobolo

OK, I will. Good luck!
Actually, it will be pretty easy to stick the brick veneer on. Show us a pic when you're done.


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## Simply Sal

Hi Knucklez - I have been having a great time going through your renovations.. very impressed.. may I ask what part of Ont. you are from... I was raised there, now a B.C.er but I was in the Markham, Stouffville, Unionville area and my parents raised us in a house that was about 100 yrs old when I was 6 or so... I am now 54.. my dad renovated all aspects of the house on weekends and I was his shadow... probably why I am so interested in the DIY projects. Have my own business now doing maintenance work for the government society housing groups as well as small bathroom and kitchen reno's.
Your plumbing is almost typical of alot of areas especially the rotten cabinet bottoms.
Just curious of your location. Your work is great to be a part of in an indirect way.
Many thanks Simply Sal


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## Knucklez

> Your plumbing is almost typical of alot of areas especially the rotten cabinet bottoms.


 i hope not! yikes.. feel sorry for them




> what part of Ont. you are from


sorry, as a rule generally consistent with proper family internet use, i do not give out personal information. i stretched my own rule and listed "ontario" only because it helps others give advice tailored to my region (i.e. weather patterns, building codes etc.)

good luck with your business and thanks for dropping by this thread

Knucklez


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## Simply Sal

Thanks for the reply, respect your privacy... will continue to enjoy your work.. 
the pictures are great. As to the plumbing, its all good once we are done with it. :thumbsup:
Cheers, Simply Sal (will take your advice)


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## Knucklez

in preparation for lifting sheets of chipboard onto the ceiling, i made this "deadman's" lift. its name is given for reasons other than you think.

ok, you got me.. it _is_ what you think. the thing is scary!









after ONE try my wife gave up. screaming and scared.. we decided to use 2 ladders instead and we just lifted the sheets into place. this worked MUCH better. haha.. 

the hole around the light box is cut a bit bigger to make chipboard install easy. the tin ceiling will cut in right to the edge of the box perfect and hide the small gap. i put a bead of *PL400 subfloor adhesive *along the ceiling strapping before i screwed the sheets onto the ceiling. this will help keep the surface flat and hold tight for centuries.

NOTE: bottom left corner you see a electrical junction box. this is for above cabinet lighting which will shine up on the tin ceiling.


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## Scuba_Dave

I actually use a dead mans lift in addition to ladders
Its nice to have something to take the weight off while you secure it in place


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## cocobolo

Oboy, am I glad you posted that. Last night my wife and I tried to lift a sheet to the ceiling exactly as you did. She cannot lift any weight to speak of past her shoulders. So we were not successful. Then I made up a 7 1/2 foot tall sawhorse which I will put one end of the sheet on, then jam a deadman under the other end, then go back to end number 1 and nail that up. I hope.


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## Simply Sal

we have made two "lifts" as we call them" helps take the weight off the end you are attaching and easier on the arms
the cost of a "gypsy" to rent is reasonable usually... takes a full sheet and just turn it up... I am thinking of your wife
P.S. we use screws if it is drywall you are installing.


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## cocobolo

I am aware of using screws for drywall, this is OSB same as Knucklez.


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## Simply Sal

gotcha, wasn't sure.. How are you finishing your OSB?


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## cocobolo

It may sound crazy to you all, but I am using it wrong side down. First it gets a light sanding with a pad sander. Then two coats of Kilz primer, then two topcoats of Popcorn white flat latex by Dulux.
I am thinking now of cutting the sheets smaller, still haven't decided for sure.


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## Simply Sal

nothing is ever crazy if you get what it is you want... sounds interesting to me. Smart to flip the sheets so you get good paint retention.
Do you want to cut the sheets for appearance or ease of installation?
How do you like the Dulux paint? I used it once on a project and was impressed with it. My regular paint is Cloverdale as they give good discounts for non profit housing projects and I find it equivalent to General Paint.


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## cocobolo

My wife chose the Dulux about a year ago for some trim work, and she liked it, so that's good enough for me. We just took advantage of their buy two get one free promo.
You are right on both counts about the OSB.
In fact, I just tried a 4 x 4 sheet, and didn't like the look, so I cut that down to a 2 x 4 sheet and I am happier with that. I have two full sheets pre-painted, so will have 8 pieces to put up today. I will post a pic on my thread Gulf Island Building in the project section later. I don't like stealing Knucklez' thread for something like this.


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## Scuba_Dave

Last lift I rented was just over $20 for 4 hours use
I tacked each sheet up enough to hold it in place
Then after I returned the lift I fully secured each sheet
It was a cathedral ceiling I was working on


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## cocobolo

Renting is essentially out of the question here. Probably OK where Knucklez is I imagine.
It would take 4 hours just to get something here, never mind to actually use it.


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## skipjack

> my next semester of school has started and no functional kitchen yet.. joy


I'm actually surprised how well I'm functioning _without_ a kitchen. So much so, I've been a little lazy about getting the tile laid down.

We'll see if that mindset holds true when I redo the bathroom this summer. I'm sure the restaurant around the corner wont appreciate me using theirs all the time.


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## Knucklez

quick tip..

i put ceiling strapping 16" OC. but i should have added a couple extra such that the end of my 4x8 sheet could end right in the middle of a strap. no cutting of the chipboard sheets required. this would make for much nicer seems. but i am going to cover later with tin, so i don't care. but could be important for you.

wife could lift the sheets on ladder because it was thin and relatively light. also *use "particle board" screws* which are different than wood screws. they make the job much easier.

also, if you are painting, they sell "paint grade" plywood which isn't all that more expensive. i'm just using cheap OSB because well.. its cheap..


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## Knucklez

*cabinet reinforce*

time to reinforce the cabinets..

first thing is i flipped the cabinet upside down and take off the flimsy chipboard square box base. 



then, i replaced it with some 2x3 wood which makes the cabinent not as tall (i will compensate height with extra thick concrete countertop).




one thing to remember.. the dishwasher still needs to fit under the top of the cabinet.. so don't drop the cabinets too low!


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## Knucklez

now i must deal with a few more cabinet issues.

1st.. cabinets need to be pulled away from the wall because the counters need to be wide enough such that the fridge looks likes it was built in. 

the fridge is 28" deep. so, countertop needs to be ~28" too. the cabinents are only 22" or so. so they need to be pulled away from the wall (i don't want a 6" overhang!).

2nd problem. the floor is not level (this matters with concrete countertop)

3rd problem. the wall is not flat.

so i will slowly work on this issue.


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## Knucklez

start with putting a 2x4 ledge on the back wall. shim out where necessary. the ledge is really here to help push the cabinets away from the wall (i still got another 2.25" to go..) and also gives sturdy surface for the plywood rest on. 

using 3.5" #8 robertson wood screws into the studs. checking for perfect level with my handy flatMAX 4' level! note: don't hit your electrical wires with such long screws!


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## Knucklez

bringing out the back ledger a bit more.. total of 3, 3/4".

using full sheets of 3/4" plywood to carry the weight to the floor along the back wall. running a sander just to keep things smooth and level along the top (probably over kill, but i had the tool handy so why not).


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## Knucklez

install corner cabinet. this cabinet gets screwed into the back wall also to hold it stationary. i had someone push down on the top while i screwed it against the wall. not sure if this is necessary, its sort of like filling a bathtub with water before you apply the bead of caulk.. a debate for the ages.



close up on the corner detail..


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## Knucklez

strengthen right side with full sheets of 3/4" plywood. i would also do the left side the same, except my cabinet will end just a few inches away on the left.. so i just moved the wall 4" away from left side of corner cabinet. its close enough to add strength to that side of cabinet.

i would have liked to finish the floor BEFORE the cabinets went in.. but i'm running out of time. i need a kitchen to stay sane. not that insanity doesn't have its benefits .. MMuuhahahahaaa....

checking for level along the way.


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## Knucklez

notice the notch cut out of the plywood along the bottom. this is so all the cabinets look like they are floating, you don't actually want to see the kick-plate. also, the plywood sheet on the right hand wall of the corner cabinet does not reach all the way to the back wall. it just wasn't wide enough piece. but it still will do the job. it has been screwed against the cabinet which is why it is standing perfectly upright.

so.. because the cabinets have been cut to allow the fridge to be installed against the wall, on the left side, it just so happens to leave me with a tiny 4" wide cabinet possible.

should this be a slide out spice rack? what do you tink?


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## Knucklez

i used strong-tie metal deck supports for the wall jutting out since there is no support. see bottom right side of cabinet, notice that shiny piece of metal just barely visible? that's what i'm talking about. after i put these in it is fairly rigid & strong. 

the reason i do not have a cross brace to make a box out of the center cabinet (i.e. a piece of wood sort of where the level is in the picture below) is because my sink will be there. it is a farmers sink with a full apron, so there is no place to put that piece of wood near the top. hard to visualize from the text i know.


----------



## Knucklez

i am checking that my dishwasher will fit in the designated area while still leaving room for the side wall and proper gap on the stove.. it was a close fit, less than 1/2" to spare!


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## Knucklez

cabinet strengthening is finished. for the last wall on the far right it is just 3/4" plywood. i have some heavy duty L-brackets in the top right corner and at the floor holding it together. i sat on the top... seems sturdy enough.

now onto the sink platform. just built a 2x4 shelf with a 3/4" plywood platform with a hole cut out for the drain. there is no template with this sink because it is hand crafted and has wide margin of error.

it also weighs 85lbs dry :huh:


----------



## Knucklez

so rented the belt sander and went at the floors for 5 hours.
by the time it was done i went through 3x36grit, 2x60grit, 2x80grit. HD rep did not recommend 100 grit. $125 for tool & material. it was also handy that i had a hammer and nail punch for when/if a nail showed up. my shop vac came in handy again 

so... when i was in the cat hole under the kitchen, i remember seeing the kitchen floor from the bottom and that the wood looked 2 different colours (no sub floor so it was visible). i always wondered what it would look like when it got sanded, so here it is!


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## Knucklez

here is the BEFORE picture.. see how bad shape the floors are in?




AFTER 5 hours of sanding...




next i must rent the edger & apply stain.

*question*: what kind of wood is this?


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## jackie treehorn

I must admit I was looking at pictures before reading, but holy cow, the floors are nice under all that gunk. And maybe you said this somewhere, but are you gonna build the countertops as well?


----------



## What have I done

wow that zebra pattern on the floor is cool. Never saw anything like that. Any idea what species the woods are? the lighter color maple?
you did good to un-cover that in 5 hours of sanding that black gunk.
like the sink also. keep up the good work


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## Quadfam4

WOW love the floors. I would keep those.... are you going to tile them?


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## Knucklez

ya, my wife loves the "zebra" floors too 

not sure what type of wood this is, i am soliciting feedback (and plenty of it!) over HERE

we are planning on staining them dark walnut to go with the flow of the rest of the house. with this stain, you will still see the 2-tone wood, it just won't be so pronounced. 

i am absolutely fabricating my own concrete countertop. i would have started it already but i realized i didn't order enough material last year. so i have some on order. while waiting, i decided to do the floors. 

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

SH#T. would you believe it? when we went to the city dump to unload a bunch crap piling up in the back yard - which included the old cupboards that are not needed anymore - we accidently threw out the ONE draw we needed to keep! ack! notice in the previous pictures that there is a bunch of draws with one missing.

damn.. 

a minor set back is all.. a minor set back.. :furious:


----------



## Knucklez

prepping to stain the floor.. went into a discrete area (under the stove) to apply different options. 

good thing we did this.. DEFINITELY changed the way we felt about stain choices. we flip-flopped and went from Dark Walnut to natural! ha.. dark walnut is just too dark on this floor. though golden oak is nice... 

the winner: Golden Oak (originally chose natural). reason for change at the last minute was because we wanted to blend the white maple with red cherry just a bit more...


----------



## LeviDIY

I know what you mean about the dump... I've lost a couple of tools... once realizing mid "heave" what I was doing, but not able to stop momentum... good choice on the stains... I like the natural pattern you've got going!


----------



## Knucklez

deleted


----------



## Knucklez

the poly is still drying, and the *picture was taken at night* in poor lighting.. we are very excited, loving the floors!




_applicator Pad (left) for poly_, and if you are staining, wipe excess with the cloth (right)
* Stain is applied against the grain, excess is wiped off with the grain.
* Poly is applied in thin coats with the grain, and 220 grit pole sand in between if required.




_effects of poly_



_
pole sand with 220 grit after first coat
_


_poly applied & drying.._


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## Quadfam4

THATS FRACKIN BEAUTIFUL!!!!! I am so jealous! I am glad you went with a light stain so it would really show the contrast of the wood.


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## Knucklez

thx man. we feel very fortunate to have found such a gem in the rough (real rough!). 

.. so what's next? probably can seriously start thinking about the concrete countetop. 

after much research .. the first steps:

1) find out if i can rent a small cement vibrator called a "stinger" ?
2) gather all other tools & materials
3) make a template of the countertop
4) make a pour table


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## Quadfam4

your welcome oh and i am a chick! you have deffinately found a gem in the rough wish I was so lucky with my old house that I am renovating did find some pretty hardwood myself but havent taken on the challenge of refinishing yet. that will be my next project after the bathroom. 

I have seen on tv concrete countertops being done but I wouldnt even know where to start on that one. Good luck and keep the pics and updates going. 

Jenn


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## Knucklez

sorry, my bad! :jester:

the floor refinish trick... start with belt sander and go through all the grits up to 80 (or 100). use the edger up to 100. THEN... use a hand held belt sander with 80 and 100 and 120 grit to take out the swirl marks that the edger will leave behind (unless you are a natural and can somehow figure out how to use that tool properly). it is a time consuming process.. you must think to yourself "this is worth my time... this is worth my time ... i need a BEvERage".


the best place to start learning about how to make concrete countertops is the local library. find the book "concrete countertops made simple" by Fu-Tung Cheng. it comes with a DVD too.

buy all the products from Fu-Tung (see my previous posts) for your first countertop to make things easier. 

follow the steps (or avoid the blunders!) listed in my thread here :wink:


----------



## Knucklez

before we leave the subject of floors.. this picture is really interesting.

at the transition from kitchen to pantry (pantry is just a concept at this point, it is still unfinished project) there is an oak strip. the pantry floor is rough pine, unfinished.

so you have a picture with 4 different types of wood:
1 - Rough unfinished pine
2 - Oak with stain "golden oak" and polyurethane
3 - Maple with stain "golden oak" and polyurethane
4 - Cherry with stain "golden oak" and polyurethane


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## Quadfam4

Neat! I am pretty sure my floor is oak but I am not super sure the house I am living in was built by my husbands grandfather and he was on a cash and do budget when he had cash he did some work. My floors are completely unfinished.... they have been covered up with UGLY PINK CARPET for at least years until I convinced my husband to take the nasty carpet up. here is what I found they are in very short planks and there are so many variations in color of the wood. I am excited to see it when it is all done but I know its going to be a task getting there. here is what it looks like


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## cocobolo

Hey Knucklez, that floor is not too shabby....not too shabby at all!! And definitely different!! Good job!!


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## What have I done

wow i really like the floor. I started looking at your post quite a while ago looking for hints/tips on the concrete countertop! can we get going with it already???

We are gonna be doing concrete countertops also and want you to do all the trial and error work for me!:laughing:

keep up the good work!


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## jackie treehorn

Knucklez said:


> after much research .. the first steps:
> 
> 1) find out if i can rent a small cement vibrator called a "stinger" ?


I think a sawz-all without a blade would provide quite a bit of vibration, or a sander without paper


----------



## stephen44

What have I done said:


> wow i really like the floor. I started looking at your post quite a while ago looking for hints/tips on the concrete countertop! can we get going with it already???
> 
> We are gonna be doing concrete countertops also and want you to do all the trial and error work for me!:laughing:
> 
> keep up the good work!



:yes::thumbup:


----------



## Knucklez

> We are gonna be doing concrete countertops also and want you to do all the trial and error work for me!


you have no idea how many people have said the same thing! 



> I think a sawz-all without a blade would provide quite a bit of vibration, or a sander without paper


yes, you are right.. but i need to stick it into the concrete and move it around.. but to be fair, only the pro does that (or uses a vibration table), everyone else on the net who has made concrete countertop just shakes the surface walls or taps it with a hammer. nobody seems too concerned about this step. but i want to match what the pros do as close as possible.

i was thinking of a piece of dowel inserted into a wood block. and that wood block straped to the underside of my hand-held orbital sander. i will just make this device and see how it does. maybe try to mix some mud with it outside, see if it holds up.

my pour table is constructed, and i have my template in progress. i'm taking pictures and will write extensively on the subject when i finish each major step.

Knucklez


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## stephen44

Knucklez said:


> and will write extensively on the subject when i finish each major step.
> 
> Knucklez


ty :thumbup:


----------



## Knucklez

painted the kitchen today. 2 coats of Behr premium high hide primer (needed it!) and 2 coats of paint colour of choice.

but i gotta tell you about this paint. it comes in the funniest can, with a handle! this paint is ECO friendly, it went on really smooth with no splatters, dripping brush or shrapnel from a high speed roller. the colour is really deep.

NO I AM NOT A PAINT REP.. i just was impressed. in fact, i was so impressed i thought it deserved a moment of glory:


----------



## Knucklez

made the concrete countertop template today. was pretty straight forward. the recommended material was Luam wood, or "doorskin". i couldn't find it, so i used hard-board. basically any flat 1/8" thick sturdy material will do. just be mindful that glue must stick to it well (hard-board doesn't stick that great).

tools used:
hot glue gun
glue sticks
chop saw
marker
adjustable square

the 3.5" wide strips are pre-cut by HD. i just cut them to length as required. each piece is cut short by 1/2" so that i don't have to cut it twice.


----------



## Knucklez

dry fit first.. here is my procedure:

1) i placed all the horizontal pieces first so that they laid flat to the substrate (plywood top on cabinet). 

2)then i put the vertical bracing. 

3)then i put the angle pieces. 

4)then shifted stuff around to get the overhang i wanted.

when happy, i lifted the corners and started gluing with hot glue gun i got from the $ store today.


----------



## Knucklez

details of setting the template overhang:

i chose 1" because it seemed like a nice number and because it allows my farmer sink to sit just in front of it which i think will look nice.

i used my adjustable square to rest on the corner and to identify how far away from the substrate the overhang should be. since the metal ruler of my square is 1" wide this was easy. i just slide the template over the edge of the substrate until the template piece is flush with the square metal ruler part.


----------



## Knucklez

marking the template:

in the instructional video, the pro marks all sorts of information on his template. all i need to know is where the faucets are to be located. i basically stopped marking up my template after that because it seems like a waste of time. maybe he just does it so he has an official record of how that countertop was made so the pro can refresh his/her memory if customer calls 5 years later.? dunno..

anyway, i just put in where to find the faucet. the sink itself is easy to locate since it is a farmer sink, therefore didn't need to be marked on the template. hope i'm not wrong about that :whistling2:


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## cocobolo

Hi Knucklez: Glad to see everything is coming along. The Luam you refer to is actually commonly known as Philippine mahogany, or Luan with an "N". You are right it is used for doorskins, and should have been easy to find. But what you have is at least as good, if not better. The luan plywood tends to be very splintery when you cut it.


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## jackie treehorn

are you going to use melamine for the mold? I know of a guy that was using a laminated mdf core sheet material that was ultra glossy, so when he pulled the top out of the mold he didn't have to polish or anything, granted that was the look he was going for without any aggregate showing etc.


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## Knucklez

i'm just following the instructions given in the book/dvd published by taunton. they say use melimine, so that's what i'm going to use. keep the experimenting for method improvements to my _next_ concrete countertop.

ps. we cooked our first meal in the new kitchen last night. it was frozen lasagnia from grocery store.. but it sure tasted like heaven.

Knucklez


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## cocobolo

Knucklez, I haven't looked far back in the thread, but have you seen the book(s) by Fu Tung Cheng on the subject?
And one little idea - it might pay you to make up a small dummy pour before you tackle the big one. At least you would get to see how it will really look, even if it is in miniature.


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## Knucklez

yes indeed, i am following fu-teng cheng's books and videos (i have them all). his first book/video edition came out a few years ago and it is by far the best. 

i thought about a trial run, to perfect the technique & also to check the colour.. but .. that would go against my "rock'n roll" renovation style; its all or nothing with me. besides, concrete is cheap. if it looks like crap i'll just smash it with a sledge and bury it in the backyard :laughing:

ps. finished oven install, fridge install & now working on dishwasher install. will continue with countertop mold making this weekend.


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## cocobolo

Can't wait to see how it comes out - DEFINITELY looking forward to that part!


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## flamtap

Hi,

Just found your thread last week. Great work, and thanks for posting the updates here! That floor is simply amazing and will serve as a nice reminder of everything you've put into the kitchen. Can't wait to see the countertops also. What a great combination of old & new you will have.


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## Knucklez

Pour Table Construction:

i chose to make a simple table because i just happen to have the material for it around the yard. this table is different than recommended in the book.. but the required characteristics are the same, a) sturdy b) dead flat c) level.

here i just used 2x6x10 pieces of lumber blocking to ensure sturdiness. some of the blocking is horizontal because the wood was wider than the long 2x6x10 pieces (different batch of wood?). strange. i just put those pieces in horizontal because i didn't want to upset the levelness of the platform.

building a pour table this way is easy, but the thing is HEAVY. i should have built it in the area i plan on pouring the cement so i don't have to move it. ah well.




using a white strip of melmine (part of the mold making piece) to provide a alignment so i can draw a line and countersink some screws into the ply.


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## What have I done

good to see your making progress. So using this method the por will actually be upside down, I s that correct?

The finished top-side of the countertop will actually be the bottom of the form? This will probably give a smoother finsih? Will you be grinding/sanding also?


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## Knucklez

exactly, the cement pour is done upside down so that the smooth melemine surface defines the initial cement surface quality. the pros have said time and time again that no matter how good your cement troweling is, you'll never get it to the quality of what a melemine cement mold can do.

after the cement has dried for 3-4 days i will be grinding the surface with a variable speed wet grinder. this is a special grinder that is made to work _safely _with both electricity and water (i.e. has built in GFI and double insulated motor windings), and with a relatively low max RPM. the grinding pads are special for concrete (not granite). the tools were purchased from Ebay.

i rented the 6cu ft. gas powered cement mixer and pencil vibrator from Battlefield Equipment rental. both items were total $100 for 24 hr rental. they deliver and pickup for $30 each way. .. SOLD :thumbsup:

i purchased 8 60lbs bags of 5000psi commercial grade "just add water" non-airintrained cement from HD for $77. this is the recommended product from the pro. 

now i must make sure i have all the right tools so tomorrow goes smoothly, like an apron, gloves, some buckets, a piece of 2x4 to act as a screed etc.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

Mold Form:

the template shown earlier was used to trace out on a piece of melemine the contours. unfortunately, my first concrete countertop is challenging because it is not rectangular and is greater than 8ft. long. the pro says to use a fine toothed saw to cut the melemine, but i found it doesn't really matter if it gets chewed a bit because the silicon caulk hides it. the piece of brown paper in the mold is my plexiglass which i am using for the divide (see next post)

the melemine form:



next is to add bracing. you see how the sink area (shown below) is braced with 2 pieces of melemine on all sides, the wall of the brace is a bit shorter than the wall of the form so that it doesn't interfere with the cement screeding process.


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## drtbk4ever

I am eager to see how this goes for you Knucklez. I hope to see plenty of pictures too. Although you may not have enough time if you are by yourself.

Best of luck.


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## stephen44

yes - good luck - i am interested in the result and am hoping the best for you !


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## Knucklez

because the form is greater than 8' long and will weight in at almost 500lbs.. i decided to make it in TWO pieces so that installation is easier. this means i have to divide the form into two pieces.

here i use a piece of plexiglass. there is some flex in the plexiglass so that when the cement is poured in and it maybe bends the plastic, that's OK it will form perfectly to its mate after the plexi is removed and countertop installed.

this means that the melemine mold is actually cut at the seam where the plexi is. 

*important*: _note that when you cut the melemine form to allow for plexiglass insert, you will LOSE that much material as the thickness of your blade (typically 1/8"). so your initial mold form should be longer on one end by 1/8" to accomodate. i didn't realize this until AFTER i cut the piece. ah-well, the tiles will hide the small gap._

i used regular 60-tooth carbide Bosch chop-saw to cut the plexi, also a saber saw with metal cutting blade. both worked just fine. 

the fresh cut wood around the plexi is coated with thin layer of 100% black silicon caulk to protect it against swelling if some water gets in there. i use blue painters tape to ensure the caulk is applied cleanly.

the plexi is cut to bue JUST shorter than the mold walls, and extends all the way 



Yikes! see that fresh cut of melemine exposed to where the cement will be? bottom left side of the picture.. that exposed inner area of the melemine needs to be coated with silicon and then a piece of packing tape over it to protect it against water.

plexi divide, Top Down view: notice how the melemine wall forms are rabbit cut to allow for the plexi to slide into it.


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## Knucklez

Caulking:

applying blue painters tape around all seams so that they can be protected from water using 100% silicon caulk (black). the caulk is applied in the gap between the tape (1/8" on both sides of the form seams). pretty straight forward process.




but i did find this trick handy.. when coming to the end of the line, i used a straight razor to bring the tape that last little bit and cut it perfectly to the corner (actually, just 1/8" away from the corner). like this:


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## Knucklez

Faucet Knockouts:

you can buy rubber re-usable sink knockouts online, but they are expensive if you're just building ONE countertop. i just made them out of wood. i cut some disks out of wood and glued them together, like so:






because the wood will grip to the cement, it is important to sray the knockous with adhesive and then wrap the knockouts in 1/8" packing foam. then, wrap the foam with clear packing tape. 

*important*: althought the top of the knockout doesn't need foam it should be covered with clear packing tape because cement will like be spilled over the top while screeding. you want easy access to the screw that holds the knockout to the form!


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## stephen44

so are you still going to spray the melamine with something like 'PAM' veg oil ?


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## Knucklez

the large pieces of melemine which forms the top surface of the cement is not sprayed with anything. the cement is just poured right on top of the melemine. the cement will not grab to the white parts of the melemine at all, so it will come apart easy. it is just the areas that are NOT white but likely to come in contact with cement that needs to be protected properly.

does this answer your question?


----------



## Knucklez

Concrete reinforcement:

i add 3/8" rebar and 6" wire remesh to provide strength to the concrete. 

*important:* _stay 2" away from the mold walls and 1" away from the mold surface (the white part of the melemine mold) to avoid "ghosting" which is where you can start to actually see the rebar in the cement! _

this means that the rebar structure must FLOAT in your mold. to do this (not shown below), slip 1" piece of pink rigid foam under the corners of your metal structure. then tie mechanics wire (rebar wire) to the metal and bring your wire OUTSIDE the mold and tied down to a screw in your pour table. then you can remove the pink insulation and your metal structure is now floating off the surface of the melemine. after you pour the cement in and it has dried a bit, you can cut the wires that are sticking out and just push the fresch cut into the cement a bit with your finger. difficult to describe i guess.. see the book. 

ps. i moved this project outdoors (and draped a tarp overtop to protect from rain) because i feared i would make a big mess in my house. i'll have to vacuum and thoroughly clean the form before the cement gets poured!


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## What have I done

WOW I am anxious to see more. Have you experimented with colorings? When it comes time could you also tke pics of your grinder etc, a tool review and OH HELL just come to Illinois and do my counter.

Seriously though thanks for all the pics, and explanations. Good luck with the pour!


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## stephen44

:yes: ty



Knucklez said:


> the large pieces of melemine which forms the top surface of the cement is not sprayed with anything. the cement is just poured right on top of the melemine. the cement will not grab to the white parts of the melemine at all, so it will come apart easy. it is just the areas that are NOT white but likely to come in contact with cement that needs to be protected properly.
> 
> does this answer your question?


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## Knucklez

What Type of Cement?

ohhhh... looky looky what i found in small text on the pro's website:

*DO NOT USE any air-entrained bagged mixes (including Quikrete 5000 Pro Finish).*

you see, on the box of the product purchased from the pro (die colouring, fiber & water reducor pre-measured for me) it says to mix in *ANY *5000psi rated concrete. 

so i guss there is a contradiction here.

when i went to HD, they only had one brand that read 5000psi, and that was quickrete "commercial grade". NO-WHERE on the bag does it say it is "air-entrained". here is a link to the product spec sheet i am using. i am using this because that's what's available. i also google searched to confirm the choice, where i found this article about the pro:
_
For concrete, he obtained about 25 bags of Quikrete 5000, a commercial-grade blend that is commonly available at hardware stores across the country. It costs more than other options, he says, but it's known for providing an even mix of cement powder and aggregate throughout each sack, a quality essential for this job._

interestingly.. on quickrete's own website, they now make a special blend of concrete specific to the use of countertops. i guess this is growing in popularity!

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

its a sad day in Whoville 

so there i was, mixing & pouring the cement and everything was going relatively well, when the safety release for the mixer came lose and dumped the cement all over the driveway. 



well, what can you do? we tried to salvage what we could. but this catastrophe caused us to miss the proper window of time for concrete vibration & didn't quite fill the mold to the top (as much of the concrete was on the driveway and unusable. 

oh well.. let us pray together that by some stroke of luck this project still works out in the end.


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## Knucklez

for what its worth... here's what i learned about cement mixing that was not explained well (or at all) in the books/videos:

- it is really worth your while to get the 12cuft mixer for batches 4cuft or more. this is so the engine is powerful enough to start the mix easily and not stall out. and also so you can put the mixer in a horizontal position while it is turning so the stuff on the bottom gets pulled to the top easily. if its too full (because you have a smaller barrel) the wet mix will start to fall out of the mixer while turning, so you have to but it more vertical and then just live with the pour mixing.

- a piece of plastic tarp (i used vapour barrier) and bungee cord is great wrapped around the mixer opening when mixing the dry ingredients. 

- wear goggles. when you are watching the cement mix to assess if its working and quality of the mix, you get splattered in the face, even if your face is 3ft. away from the mixer opening. 

- you need 3 people (at least two of which must by strong men)

- you must NOT allow the concrete to setup IN THE MIXER because it will ruin the machine. this is why following the time lines given in the product instructions are important. this is a job for the 3rd person. while the other two are working the cement by hand and vibrator, the 3rd person is cleaning out the mixer post haste.

- the cement pencil vibrator gets HOT to hold. maybe some oven mitts would work good overtop your durable shoulder length rubber gloves during this part.

- its a messy job


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## What have I done

that sucks about loosing part of your load! the good thing about pouring it upside down it prolly wont affect your overall countertop appearance. Maight have to shim a little if the mold wasnt completely full- right?

were you able to take some pics during the process or was it crazy trying to mix and pour? Im sure since it was the 1st time the adrrenaline was flowin. Hope it all turned out. cant wait to see the pics


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## stephen44

sorry to here that - thanks for the "lessons learn't" ...

do you think what you have done will be usable ?


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## Knucklez

there were some tense moments.. well, pretty much tense the entire time. i give it 40% probability it will turn out. i didn't even check the camera to see the pictures; i was so focused on trying to save the countertop and mixer from being ruined. the concrete must cure for 4 FULL days. when the countertop starts to separate from the melemine walls you know its ready to be released from the mold.

for now, the cement is covered with a blue tarp (as per instructions) and another blue tarp is shielding the sun (it says do not cure in sunlight, so i hope this works). i checked it today and there are water pools on top of the cement. does this mean there is high humidity? 

is this good, or bad? i have no idea. i just left it...

i am SOOOOo bumbed out right now :icon_cry:


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## Gary in WA

From the man: page 127: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ozw1jxLV03oC&pg=PA125&dq=curing+concrete+countertops#PPA127,M1 Be safe, G


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## Knucklez

thx GBAR, i misted the concrete & put damp towels over some of it because all the water droplets seemed to have dried up. amazing how much hydration there is.

the BIG REVEAL is scheduled for saturday at 5pm (four full days of curing before 50 grit grinding). wish me luck!

:thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave

Doncha hate when you spill yer load early ?? :laughing: 
bummer


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## cjanlui

wow, you're doing an awestome job. I can't wait to see how this turns out. I have my quickrete concrete countertop mix sitting on the patio waiting to go. Now all i have to do is finish the bathroom so I can start making it. Nice to hear trial and error's from someone else though! I'm sure it will be fine. My HD held a countertop class but recommended not going face down because it comes out awkwardly smooth. Can't wait to see your pics!
:thumbup:


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## What have I done

did you end up using the quick-crete? how many bags did it take?

Do you think a 5 cf mixer would be worthwhile if I had someone mixing while I was working the mold?

I found a mixer like this on for only $80. It can mix 3 bags at a time, SO I would have to do 2 or 3 mixes for a countertop? do-able?

http://www.masterwholesale.com/mwistore/display.php?RecordID=1060393696


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## What have I done

it's got to be 5:00 Somewhere....arent you going crazy to take a peak at it?


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## drillbit

Wow.

Rock on.

I plan to do countertops in a few months.

I've made the pour table, but realized I too had a floor to contend with first. 

Right now I am (ha, and have been) polishing an existing concrete slab that was rough broom finished. 

I can tell you a bit about that process if you like.

Wet pads make a huge mess, so I hope you are planning to do that outside.

They do sell dry pads. That is what I eventually went with.

It is a choice between thrown muddy slush or a dust bomb.

Clean between grits.

I just finished my 800 grit pass (first hint of polish). Next is 1500.

Perhaps by the weekend's end I will have a floor and you a counter.


:thumbsup: 

Concrete is kind of cool isn't it?


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## Scuba_Dave

Ah, SAT at 5pm
I was expecting pics tonite


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## Gary in WA

Cjanlui, the bags of concrete are outside? Most bags are not air tight, and will absorb moisture from the overnight air like a wick.......... Be safe, G


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## Knucklez

*hopefully optimistic*

a long post to respond to all the comments (thanks!)

stay patient. the quickrete 5000psi "commercial grade" (yes i did end up using it) was recommended by the pro, and if you watch his first video you can clearly see what he is using as its stacked up there on the floor. 

the mixing and pouring and vibrating is quite complicated and time sensitive. because the water is not much (compared to if you are pouring a slab) and the addition of water reducor. so the cement sets up fast. 

each 60lb bag of premixed cement makes 1/2 cubic foot. my countertop was calculated to be 3.67 cu ft, so i mixed 4cu feet (8 bags) into a "6 to 8" cubic foot cement mixer. this mixer was probably not big enough for the job, or i don't know how to mix cement properly. when dry mixing ingredients, i got all the cement at the bottom NOT MIXING and the stones all went to the top and was mixing. then, i had to stop the mixer. ram a crow-bar to break up the dry material at the bottom and then try to start it up and pray it would mix. did this a few times. i even had the mixer fully horizontal (with plastic tarp over opening to hold ingredients IN the mixer) to help it out. so i definately think bigger mixer is probably better than too small. when you add water the mixer pulls from the bottom a lot easier and you get better mixing.

pro recommends that this particular concrete (5000 psi type) cure for "4 full days" before grinding. if you grind with heavy grit too early it could actually ruin the countertop. you want it a bit hard so it will take a grinding, but not too hard that it takes 87 pads to do it! my grinder is a variable speed WET grinder, so it will be mixing water with it automatically. i am doing this work where i poured the concrete - out side.

concrete is a really neat product. i have lots of plans for it, so long as this first attempt turns out nice. we'll see the results together.. sunday night.

stay tuned,
Knucklez


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## Knucklez

what i have done - specific to your question.

there are a few complications with concrete countertop which really drives the craftsmen to chose a larger than usual cement mixer. 

1) this is for high visibility product, a countertop, where excellence is demanded. this is not your driveway, or shed slab. your colour mixing must be uniform and tightly controlled. can you guarantee this if you mix 3 separate batches?

2) the countertop concrete sets up fast, you have less than 30 minutes to go from dry mixing, to vibrating the mold. you don't really have time to do several batches, you need it all in one go just to save the time.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

cjanlui - i'm really interested in seeing how quickerete countertop mix is compared to quickerete's 5000psi "commercial grade". 

i understand that "commercial grade" has a consistant (bag-to-bag) cement to rock ratio. but i found that the rocks were quite large, and plentiful! i mean, like 50% of the bag was stones!

countertop cement .. appearently, and DON"T QUOTE ME, does not require vibration. 

anyway, i'm interested in seeing your result with this new product. please post some pictures when you get a chance.

Knucklez


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## drillbit

I'm curious and I can look next time I'm at the home improvement store.

I have read that quikcrete 5000 was recommended. 

However, the couple of tiny slabs I poured I just used a combo of straight portland and sand. This gave a uniform industrial gray look, but I like it.

I wonder what the portland ratio is in the 5000? 

Is more aggregate (rocks vs. sand) really better or not necessary? Especially considering the rebar support?

I'm interested to see how yours turns out. 

Are you staining it or going natural?


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## cjanlui

*gonna do it, after I see yours*

To be straight, my concrete is "technically" sitting in the shed I built a few months ago. I haven't opened the bags to check the rock content but after using the 5000 to patch a hole in the floor I'm praying that this is not the same. I can imagine the nightmare you were having with all them little rocks!:no:

Yeah-no vibration required!!! I had to special order though, 5 days. no biggie. I'm going to start with the smaller vanity in the bathroom, 23" x 49" to get the hang of it then I'll do my kitchen. I don't even have walls up in the bathroom, still working on the plumbing. I could start setting it up now but I wanna see yours first and see if you particularly "like" the smooth side. :whistling2:

Oh, and drillbit- the rocks add structural support in larger pieces to help bind the sand. You can also buy additives for color from your local HD, I'm adding more grey for the darker counters. it's better if its a uniform color throughout vs adding color on top. You won't notice scratches later.


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## drtbk4ever

cjanlui said:


> I'm going to start with the smaller vanity in the bathroom, 23" x 49" to get the hang of it then I'll do my kitchen.


This may be a stupid question. I have read plenty of info here on concrete countertops, but can you make the sink basin out of concrete as well?

How do you make it water tight?


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## Knucklez

that's not a stupid question at all. 

YES, you can build integrated concrete sink, and this has been done by many people including the pros. 

however...

the pro "generally" recommends not doing this because the faucet water pouring on the cement will eventually cause a water stain as it will wear away the sealer and you won't notice it until its too late.

oh.. to make it water tight, you form it as ONE PIECE. that is the sink and counter is poured into a mold as once piece. then there are no seams and no water tight issue.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

Placing Decorative Rocks

first there is a fine coat of silicon caulk spread on the with a flat edge razor. then pressed against the melemine.

you can clearly see the wooden faucet knockouts installed and the plexi glass divide i put in so that i could actually lift this monstrosity during installation.

and yes, that is a horse shoe. :yes:


----------



## Knucklez

Placing Decorative Stones

there are two sizes of stones here. one is small with rough jagged edges, and the other is size of your finger nail and mostly square shape. the melemine is first sprayed with adhesive and then the stones are scattered.


----------



## Knucklez

then the metal reinforcement structure is dropped in. notice the 1" thick pink foam is holding it up off the melemine surface. i used mechanics wire to tie the rebar to the outside of the mold (tied to the pour table) and then slipped the foam out. now the metal structure if floating in the air (not shown).


----------



## Knucklez

Pouring the Cement

filling the mold with cement. typically you would fill so that it is just higher than your frame, so that when you screed the top of it the result is perfectly flat(ish). 

for me, because i dropped 1/3 of the cement onto my driveway  .. i lost a lot of product, and so when i filled the mold i didn't have enough to fill it up to the level of the frame. i'll have to deal with this problem later.

notice you can see the mechanic wire (which is holding the metal structure) coming out of the mold and tied down to the pour table. ya.. that's what i meant. after the cement is poured, and just before you screed the top of it, you use wire cutters to trim the wires off and then just push the lose end into the wet cement.


----------



## Knucklez

after i let it cure for 4 days i took the mold apart. it came apart easily, except for the melemine bottom. that took a bit of convincing.

what you see below is, i have taken off the melemine walls and have flipped over the mold. now i am prying off what was the bottom (and will now become the top).

by the way, it took 2 guys to flip this 300lb piece. i'm glad i put that divide in the countertop.. no way we could have flipped anything bigger. (i'm shuttering when i think of installing this thing next week)


----------



## Knucklez

THE BIG REVEAL

so it turned out great! the surface had virtually NO air pockets. hey, i rented a good vibrator for this job and it totally payed off. note that i also vibrated the outside of the mold walls to help the edges come out good.

you can just barely see the decorative rocks.. they will start to show better once the concrete is ground.

looks like i forgot to take out the sink knockout on this piece. oops. oh, by the way, the method i used to make the knockouts was great. the 3 disks used to form one knockout really was easy to pull out of the dried cement (one disk at a time).


----------



## Knucklez

WET GRINDING

the grinding started straight away. i started with 50 grit (shown below). the water feed on my china made wet grinder broke off. so i just put a hose on the cement and turned the water on a trickle. made a huge water mess, but i'm out side so no biggy.

when i stick the grinding pad on, i offset it just a bit so when it spins it has a bit of a whirl to it. this is to help reduce the swirl marks left by the heavy grit pad. you don't have to do this for the lighter grits.


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## cjanlui

More! More! :thumbsup:

Ahhh, I have no life....

And I hate drywall.....


----------



## stephen44

thanks for posting this - i'm really enjoying it and learning a ton.

It is looking good.

When you say you forgot to take out the knock of out ... what point should you have done this ?

It is looking great ! :thumbup:


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## Knucklez

dude, note only do i also hate drywall - but i totally suck at it. i'll hire that one out next time for sure.

the knockouts can come out at the same time as when you take the mold apart.


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## drtbk4ever

Looking good. Keep the photos coming.


----------



## What have I done

looking good!


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## Knucklez

Grinding

starting with 50grit.. i worked my way up to 400 grit. then i sprayed with water. this is what you see. the surface is extremely smooth (and still have more grinding to go!).

the cloudy surface & greenery is just a reflection of the sky and trees etc.. the horseshoe however is real


----------



## Knucklez

SLURRY

next i mix up special slurry mix, to the consistency of peanut butter. its basically the same cement stuff, but without any rocks. i use this fill in any of the microscopic holes in the surface and any larger gaps (mostly around the edges). the large gaps are from air that got trapped in the cement. 

just cover the entire surface with this stuff and let it dry for 2 days. then.. back to grinding.


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## Knucklez

slurry application. see you again in 2 days.


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## Scuba_Dave

Looks good, is the brown objects a type of quartz?
No worries about the concrete rusting out the horshoe?


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## What have I done

looking awesome.. dam the reflection of you taking the picture really shows how nice it is coming out.

I want to start mine right away but since I dont even have the electral or plumbing ran yet dont think I will be starting. Thanks for the inspriation though.

What brand is the grinder? was it an ebay item or bought local> would you recomend it other than the water supply coming off? Id be ok with the hose.
Cant believe your putting us off for 2 more days. I used to hate "to be continued" Movies---- I hate this worse!
Keep up the good work... Like the color. You'll have to post the recipe: ratio of quick-crete to water to color....any other additives??


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## RippySkippy

That's sweet...thanks for taking the pictures...and it looks AWESOME! Can't wait to see the finished product...


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## Knucklez

no fears of rust. the countertop gets sealed with a food safe sealer.

the formula is in the book which you can get for free from the library. look up "concrete counterops" by fu-tung cheng. the additives are dry pigment, polypropolyne fibers, water reducer. for me, i just bought the pre-mixed bag from same pro so i could focus on other challenges. this being my first time, i wanted to pick/chose the battles. 

the large decorative rocks (and small ones too) are all "tiger eye" stones from africa, purchased on ebay. the big stones were $3ea + shipping. 

the variable speed wetgrinder is a must. i wouldn't recommend the tool i got.. unless you plan on doing just one countertop. who wants to buy a tool that breaks? on the other hand, i got all the grinding pads & tool new for $250 i think so .. can't complain too much.

you need a variable speed wetgrinder that has max of about 3000rpm, and min 500rpm. my grinder is max 8000rpm, so its obviously not meant for this. also, i have 3" diameter grinding pads. this means it takes a long time to grind the surface...

1 more day to go..

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

Slurry tip:

so i grinded off the 1st slurry application and found that the micro-holes were about 75% filled. i was hoping for better than that. so i decided to put on another coat. 

again with the recommended 3" plastic spatula.. this method sux. then i found a new method, and the reason for this post. i just worked the slurry mix in my gloved hand and then pressed it into the cement with the heal of my hand and smeared it around. FAST! and great coverage. i did 22 sq ft. with just 1/4 of the bag of slurry using this method, and it took maybe 10 minutes tops.

another tip.. if you didn't buy your slurry mix (like i did) but rather made your concrete from scratch you can make your own slurry. just make the concrete mix again (don't need that much) using the same ingredients. then just push the mix through a siv to get the slurry consistency with no rocks.

Knucklez


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## cjanlui

Knucklez, I feel for you with all of them additives. Maybe I'll take pics and post when I do the countertop mix. Did you add additional color to the gray, maybe the liquid quickrete color? I want to go a little darker then normal, but seeing yours.....

It was also recommended to me to use beeswax for the sealer. You will have to reapply it as it dulls in areas but it's completely non-toxic, cheaper and easy to work with. Though it may be tough seeing that hi finish of yours:yes:

Sanding mud now......prime.....travertine....vanity....then Countertop, yeah! I've gotten good at the drywall and mud even though I detest it.


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## Knucklez

i am using the pro recommended products. i use his sealer and his wax. i just follow the instructions, simple. 

the colouring of my concrete was dictated by the mix supplied by the pro. i didn't add anything to make it darker. i added only decorative stones, big & small.

Knucklez


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## Quadfam4

looking fantastic I wish I was brave enough to do something like that.


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## Knucklez

Jenn, you can do it! 

all told, this 22sq ft. 2" thick countertop cost me $700. this is a risk, but as you have read in my posts there seems to be a WIDE margin of error in this process. 

the hardest part of project has been reinforcing the cabinets. everything else is totally do-able for DIY'er. 

:rockon:


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## Scuba_Dave

I'd love to do one for my outside bar
It's 3'x10'
But $$ is not in the cards


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## perpetualjon

Thanks so much for sharing this project with us!! I'm planning on re-doing our kitchen too and remember flipping through that same book on cement countertops at our local Barnes & Noble a couple of years ago. Now I think I'm going to have to pick it up and check it out!!


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## Knucklez

Wet Polish to 1500 grit

at 800 grit the surface feels as smooth as glass. at 1500 grit the surface is as smooth as a baby's bottom, lol. i stopped at 1500 grit because i want the sealer to be able to bite to the surface (as recommended by the pro). for comparison purpose, granite is usually polished to 3000 grit.

*important*: make sure your concrete has cured to sufficient hardness before you polish it. the pro recommends at least 10 days after initial pour.

this time i dried it before i snapped the pictures. 

 


when grinding over top decorative stone, with low grit pads, it is important to AVOID the stones. they are smooth anyway and do not require grinding. you can always polish with softer grit pads (800+) later. the reason to avoid with low grit pads, you don't want any swirl marks. very hard to get out from the stones!
 

this next picture is interesting because it shows how i repaired the edge (bottom of picture). go look at the picture a couple of pages back and you'll see what i mean. this was repaired during the Slurry application phase.


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## stephen44

Love it - great job !- how often will you have to apply the sealer - I assume it isn't a one-off job ?


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## Knucklez

you'd probably get a better answer by reading the pro's FAQ listed HERE

Q54:
What sort of routine maintenance is required to keep a nice finish on my concrete countertop? How often do I re-apply the finishing wax? 

Ideally, for maximum protection and beauty, we recommend that wax be reapplied every month. With each coat of wax, your countertop will develop a naturally hard, protective coating to help repel against staining as well as remove fingerprints and add a lustrous sheen. Realistically, many owners only wax their countertops once a year or less, and then some never do at all. Without upkeep and maintenance, your countertop *will* patina and stain but this is only cosmetic and will not affect the durability of your countertop. As long as you like the aesthetics of your countertop, the countertop itself can be virtually maintenance-free and provide many years of enjoyment.


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## Knucklez

The Herculean Install:

had 3 guys and my wife on hand. 

that 350lb piece is no slouch. it took 3 guys to lift it up on edge and try to move it, and after 30 seconds we were too tired to continue. i mean, we could take but one step. then rest. this is not possible. 

the pros use a dolly to rest it on (vertically, never carry or transport horizontally) and then roll it into place. i thought, gee.. just got to go about 10 steps, no need for a dolly. ya, was wrong about that.

we eventually used my pour table as a ramp to get into the house (forget about using stairs, can't lift the darned thing!). the friction was too great to slide it on the ramp though. hmm.. so we had 4 pieces of 1" galvenized steel bars. we put them under the edge of the countertop and then slowly ROLLED the big piece up the ramp and into the house. in the house, we protected the floor by having 1" of blankets and 1" rigid foam. 

then we slid the blanket/foam over to the countertop.

then tried to heave it into place. nope.. couldn't dead lift it quite high enough.

so we wedged two 2x4's under the edge to raise it off the floor 1.5". then i put in a sheet of 3/4" plywood. then wedge in two more 2x4's. once we built it up high enough off the ground (and we were well rested) we did a monster lift and flip onto the countertop.

we put the same metal bars on the countertop too, so the concrete was resting (just barely) on the edge of the countertop and we were holding the other end up. quickly we rolled it into place, using the metal bars to allow us to roll along the surface of the countertop. then lifted it a bit and took the bars out. can also put cauling in too.

wow, that was tough.

here are some more installation tips i found on the net, click HERE

pictures are forthcoming (camera batteries are charging)

Knucklez


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## What have I done

i can picture your poor wife and friends lifting this monster while your standing back taking pictures!:yes:

something else to consider when I get around to my project. Our doorways to the kitchen are Narrow so it will make it all the tougher to finagle it in. I'll have to engineer a sling or something to get it hoisted in and up.

can't wait to see the pics!


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## Knucklez

ha. 

don't worry about the narrow door. remember, when transporting the countertop, it is always in the vertical position, not lying flat and walking around.


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## Knucklez

Final Pictures

countertops have been sealed with an acrylic penetrating sealer and then hand rubbed with some carnuba wax.

here is the countertop as it was installed. its obvious that we have to paint the cabinets now. 
remember, when i poured the concrete a lot of it was accidently spilled on the driveway. that caused me to lose some and so i was not able to completely fill the mold and thus was not able to guarantee a flat bottom. after install, that means i had to do a lot of shimming. unfortunately this means i have a gap in some places between countertop and substrate. this will be covered with decorative trim. normally, the trim just covers the edge of teh 3/4" plywood substrate, but now it will have to cover that and a bit of the gap so the countertop/substrate appears seamless.


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## cabinetgenius

Great work on your kitchen so far! Keep it going!


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## DIYdarling

@perpetualjon
Fu Tung also has a new book out called Concrete Countertops Made Simple. You should definitely take a look at it if you are interested in doing your own countertops. It comes with a DVD which was a lifesaver! Cheng Concrete's website has a store where you can get nearly everything you need to make your own concrete countertops. It looks like that is where Knucklez got the stuff for his countertop. I know their mixes and such are also available at some Home Depots around Phoenix now as well. The website is: http://www.concreteexchange.com/ and the direct link to the book I mentioned is this: http://store.concreteexchange.com/C...te-Countertops-Made-Simple-Book-and-DVD-Guide
Good luck with your project. I hope to see pictures!


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## Knucklez

ok, i give up. what's the secret with installing a kitchen sink drain & basket? i put silicon between drain and sink on the top side, and rubber gasket between sink and basket on the bottom.

i tighten..

it leaks

:confused1:


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## What have I done

Ive always used plumbers putty.

Take a golf ball sized glob and roll it in the palms of your hand making it into a long snake. place it around the sink opening. put in the trap and tighten it down.

A lot of the plumbers putty will squeeze out but you just remove that with your finger and your sink is leak-free.

Good luck


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## Scuba_Dave

Yup, I use the plumbers putty too
My cheap HD drain chrome is rusting after only 4 years


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## perpetualjon

DIYdarling said:


> @perpetualjon
> Fu Tung also has a new book...


Thx so much for the info!!


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## stephen44

What have I done said:


> Ive always used plumbers putty.
> 
> Take a golf ball sized glob and roll it in the palms of your hand making it into a long snake. place it around the sink opening. put in the trap and tighten it down.
> 
> A lot of the plumbers putty will squeeze out but you just remove that with your finger and your sink is leak-free.
> 
> Good luck


just done this ! - i agree - also do not over tighten - it will cause more leaks than it solves.


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## Knucklez

oh yeah, plumbers puddy worked great. thx for the tip.

hooked up the dishwasher today.. no more washing one plate at a time in the bathroom pedestal sink. nearly brought a tear to my eye

looking at some tile backsplash options today. found this 1/2" square glass mosiac. it is black glass, grey glass, and white tumbled marble.

what do you think?


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## What have I done

i like that. maybe Dangermouse or someone can take one of your kitchen pictures and Photoshop it in so We can see what it looks like all done.


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## drillbit

Fabulous job on the counters.

I'm in awe.

I just have to be honest and say I don't like the small tile backsplash idea. I think it detracts from the counter and fixtures. Too much, too busy.

Just my opinion.

You can find stainless look/aluminium strips at the big box stores in the hardware dept. 

Ha, you could mold, pour and polish your own backsplash. I'm sure that sounds like fun. 

Since you have a white sink, you might try a basic white larger tile and see.

Also, considering your beautiful floor. How would a spar urethaned wood backsplash look and fair under conditions? I have wood in my darn shower that has been there since the 20's. 

My opinion is that mosaic is very now and soon to be very dated. Line up all of your options, consult the wife and make a sound decision.

You are doing awesome. Your kitchen is loved.

Come fix my kitchen. :laughing:


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## Knucklez

make my own backsplash  that's too much work. ha.
but your feedback was very constructive, thanks!

my wife read your post and took your comments into consideration. in the end, she stayed to her original thoughts and decided she likes the neutral safe colours of black/grey/white and she wants the floor to stand out on their own with no help from the backsplash. she also makes a good point that we have learned so much from renovating this old house that we have aquired more than enough skillz to remove and re-do a few years from now if we don't like it anymore. 

here are the other options we (her) are considering:


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## cjanlui

Ooh, I vote for the second ones. the long horizontal bars. Certain shapes will fall out of style after 5 years but the stacked look has been around forever. 
Beautiful job on the counter! :thumbup: Poured my premix last night. I know you were wondering....the rocks in the Quickrete countertop premix are tiny little pebbles like you would find at the beach. 
They are 1/4 the size of the 5000. no tapping, no vibrating-just rolled right out and molded right in. Only concern is the slight epoxy/plastic looking finish. 
Keep up the good job, plumbers putty everything with water, and keep those pics coming!
gotta go finish travertine shower.....


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## drillbit

Too many options.

:laughing:

All of your options are very nice and any would work in your space.

The circles while cool give me a 70's retro feel.

cjanlui makes a good point about the subway style. My only concern with that is the shift from floor to backsplash changing direction.

I wonder how the vertical rectangles would play off your floor?

The mosiac squares are good too.

Like I said, just too many options these days.

I'm sure you and wife will pick what works for you.


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## Knucklez

well.. don't hold your breath. we're going to sit on that one for a while because the tile we like is going to cost us $400.. so we are starting to save up for it. 

in the mean time.. i have an old chimney in the same kitchen that is in desperate need for some Antique Brick Veneer (from stoneselex.com). i am just following the instructions given by the manufacturer on how to install this onto a vertical wall which is 1/2" stucco over brick.

the white piece of trim running floor to ceiling is covering a monster gap that was revealed when i peeled all the old drywall off the chimney. it will be painted same colour as the wall 

chimney before:
 

Material to be applied:
 

Reward to look forward to:


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## Bayou Boy

Have read with great interest the evolution of your countertop. I to am in the middle of pouring my first and have experienced several setbacks as well. My main problem is impatience and "winging" it on my own instead of following tried and proven methods by professionals. I am finished with 2 so far but poured the 2nd one 3 times before I was somewhat satisfied. Have one more to go and am stubbornly gonna attempt to pour a 5' x 8' in one pour. I will probably build some sort of dolly to set it into place. I have purchased the same video as you and has been quite informative. Used a rubber "chiseled granite" mold for a rough edge along with 3 different pigments. Used a nonsanded grout (for ceramic tile) for my slurry which actually worked great however your idea for the slurry is awesome. Also used qc5000. Concrete is awesome but very time consuming.


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## solid-art

If anyone has any Questions I'll do my best to answer them. I have been making concrete countertops for 6 years now and started by following Cheng's book. Also checkout Buddy Rhodes books and countertop bag mix.

Knucklez, I think you did a great job, and future work will no doubt be even more impressive. You sure got a thrashing on the other forum...
It's not very friendly to DIYer's. There are several things that are done differently now but your enthusiasm is the main ingredient in concrete countertops.


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## Bayou Boy

Solid-Art, do you use Rhodes mix and if so, is it newbie friendly? If I were to use it, in my final product, would my pigments turn out similiar in color to that with qc5000? I have a big island left to pour and somewhat leary of changing horses in the middle of the stream but still would be interested in the comparison. Also, have you ever had problem with ghosting? I have heard that is when your reinforcement wire is to close to the top but it was in the middle of a 2" slab. Could it be from vibrating to much. I rigged up a vibrator and mounted it under my pour table and ran this while I also used a palm nailer with a body dolly rigged up on it which I worked around the table near my mold. I have been happy with the results so far other than one turning out to look camouflage which I discarded and another had to much ghosting which was also put aside, so after four total pours, I have two acceptable products. Thank goodness for the melamine molds that I just screwed back together and reused.

Vibrator motor: Took a 1/2 hp motor and replaced the set screw in the pulley with a 3" and added about four nuts which acted somewhat as a cam. Screwed it up under table and presto, you have a vibrating table. Could play with other hp motors and weights to get more or less vibration. I probably will in the future before I make another pour to try to get a little harder vibration.


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## Knucklez

i should check that other message board 

i guess i was just trying to defend DIY'ers. i read a lot over there that made DIY sound like idiots that just are incompetents and have no business doing renovations. the truth is, we are not as good as pros, but if we can do a satisfactory job that we AND OTHER people think looks great, and it passes and exceeds code (where applicaple) then i guess we're not all bad. that was my point. when you look across the net (and this message board) you find oodles of evidence that suggests DIY'er are a competent bunch which is contrary to what was posted over there.

i'm glad we have a place to get together, share ideas and help each other. i hope others can learn from what i did right and wrong. 

if a pro stops by my thread, i hope they point out what is good and what is bad so it helps everyone who reads this in the future.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

solid-art, what i found difficult was how to avoid swirl marks that are left due to application of the sealer (the cement prior to sealer application is smooth as glass). my wife is not happy how this came out. it is installed in the kitchen now.

*solid-art*
how do you suggest i fix swirl marks left by incorrect application of sealer? i do not want to have to buff with the wet grinder now that the slab is in the kitchen. i tried rubbing with #000 steel wool but that didn't really work that great. i was planning on using burnishing pads.. and just grind away with my wet grinder but with no water. .. then apply sealer again(hope for better results?) and wax. 

what are your suggestions?


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## Bayou Boy

knucklez, I used a sealer called krystal cote (i think) purchased from "direct colors" and they recommended I use a 10" pad (don't remember its name but you can look up their website and it has it listed). I put several coats applying one coat one direction and the other opposite of the previous with fairly good results. I did however apply to much on the first which resulted in a kind of orange peel effect. I attempted to smooth it down with wet grinder and started with 3000 grit which wouldn't cut it and eventually went down to a 400 (i think) attempting to slick it off which resulted in disaster. This actually cut through a layer of it which resulted in a "whiteness" around the edges of the top layer which had been messed up. I attempted to add another coat hoping that it would disappear but you guessed it, no such luck. I then had to start over with 50 grit and repeat the whole grinding and sealing process over. 
I to would be very interested in knowing what process solid-art uses in this step. My surface is very smooth but is not as slick as glass as I was hoping for after adding sealer.


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## Wrenchin Rick

WoW had a peek at the post and I am not sure if I want to endurethe pain but looking at your project sure as hell makes it more than worth it.

Looks great.


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## solid-art

I had a reply but lost it.
So briefly... don't switch to Buddy's mix at this point it will not match,
email me at [email protected] and I'll give you my #. That goes for anyone else who is having problems.
Solid-Art (Paul)


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## solid-art

Knucklez said:


> solid-art, what i found difficult was how to avoid swirl marks that are left due to application of the sealer (the cement prior to sealer application is smooth as glass). my wife is not happy how this came out. it is installed in the kitchen now.
> 
> *solid-art*
> how do you suggest i fix swirl marks left by incorrect application of sealer? i do not want to have to buff with the wet grinder now that the slab is in the kitchen. i tried rubbing with #000 steel wool but that didn't really work that great. i was planning on using burnishing pads.. and just grind away with my wet grinder but with no water. .. then apply sealer again(hope for better results?) and wax.
> 
> what are your suggestions?


 


What kind of sealer did you use? Chengs?
Is getting a new wife an option?
Running a wet grinder _*dry*_ is not advised, the water jacket keeps the seals cool.


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## Knucklez

ha... no, not an option.

yes this is Cheng's sealer. on cheng's own website he sells burnishing pads with specific mention of using this pas to get rid of swirl marks from sealer/wax. i guess a lot of people have this problem. 

my wet grinder is a china special - i.e. the water feed broke off it on first use. so i am not too worried about this tool's life expectancy.

on the plus side, the cheng sealer/wax products really works well. i get water and food and other liquids on this counter all the time and no stains.


----------



## solid-art

Cheng's sealer is rated low on a stain resistance test I saw last spring, it was a concrete countertop conference in Sacramento Cal. I have used Buddy Rhodes (BR) sealer on several projects and am pleased with the results. I use ICT now, a very advanced sealer which starts with a high performance concrete (HPC). But enough of that for now... 
Go to an auto paint store, or Home dah Po and get a _*gray* _Scotch Brite. Try it in a small area first or a practice piece that I'm sure you poured, I put the pads on an orbital sander. Go to buddyrhodes.com and watch his video on applying his sealer. His method works better and doesn't waste material.
Buddy is a friend of mine and a pioneer of the modern concrete countertop artisan. Buddy taught Cheng how to make countertops... I also know the guy who made most of the tops in Cheng's first book. I need to calm down now, I could tell you more about Cheng but should probably use a different venue.


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## solid-art

I just checked BR's site and there is no video try youtube.
Otherwise apply the sealer very sparingly and don't over work it.


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## solid-art

solid-art said:


> I just checked BR's site and there is no video try youtube.
> Otherwise apply the sealer very sparingly and don't over work it.


 
I think you should strip the wax first, so you don't drive it into the acrylic. I remembered that that's what I had to do when I first used an acrylic.


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## weberus3

*My concrete countertop experience*

For starters I enjoyed your project with the countertops. I posted photos of my project with this thread. I want to do concrete countertops but was nervous. So I did a small project first to try out my skills. I made cap stones for a wall I built around my pool. I went to Lowes' and ordered Quickrete countertop mix. (great product) it was $12.50 for 80 lb bag TN price. I mixed it just as the instructions said 4 qts of water to a bag. The mix is perfect no stones. No shinkage and busted out of the forms the next day to cure. I wanted to do the "stained glass inlay" method upside down. My cap stones is 12" wide 8' long 2" thick. It was messy to pour, screet off and viberate. But you learn as you go. **tape over the screw heads of the forms for easy removal. I'm ready to get back and polish to see the final product. I'll post some photos of my final outcome later. 

ONE QUESTION, did you join any countertop edges between the sink run and the corner angle run? How did you finish this out to make it look seamless between the ends? Thanks


----------



## Knucklez

ohh.. good idea about pool caps. that'll look great! now you got me thinking about glossing up a backyard pond.. 

the seam for me runs directly under my faucet. so only 2" of the entire seam is really viewable. i used black caulk in between which also helps hide it. 

the book & videos, published by Cheng the pro, does not go into detail about HIDING the seams. on the contrary; he says you should use the seam as a decorative element. put objects in your concrete right along your seam etc. to bring it out, rather than hide. 

guess its all up to you. 

ps. rent 3 dollys and place your concrete vertically on it so you can roll them around. don't try to lift with one guy at one end and another at the other end.. might break in half. 

Knucklez


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## weberus3

Thanks Knucklez, I learned the hard way about laying horizontal, vertical only. Going to a free Concrete countertop class this week if I get any helpful info I'll share it here on Monday.


----------



## diy'er on LI

holy cow... OK, I just discovered the project showcase board... I'm stunned by your skills... that kitchen counter is GORGEOUS....

wow... 

Also, wonderful glass tile selection for the backsplash... pricey, but then again, it's like kitchen jewelry....

what a wonderful kitchen!!!


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## Knucklez

thx, i really appreciate hearing that. really.

i had to take a break from this kitchen reno project because my wife started another project 

and then got stuck and needed help :furious:

that was 3 weeks ago 

the more i dig around this old house the more i realize that previous owners were butchers. fixing their mistakes takes a long long time.

i go back to school in a couple of weeks so my time is short (as usual). oh well, do'n what i can when i can.

Knucklez


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## Point of Views

Hi knucklez,

I just found this site today and really enjoyed reading your concrete countertop experience. You did a fabulous job. Very impressive for your first top. :thumbsup:

I've poured about 15 pieces of 6" x 12" and 2" thick slabs using Pro-Mix. Have found that lifting the mold base a couple of inches off the table and dropping it, gets rid of all of the pin holes in the pieces. Have not tried this with a full sized countertop yet, but will when I pour another one. Just lifting one side of the top at a time, reduces the weight to about 1/2 of the top, and since you don't have to move your feet, it's relatively easy to lift far more than 200 #'s as long as your table top is at waist height. If it doesn't work on a full sized countertop, I'll build a vibrator for under the table.

I also used the Pro's Water Based Acrylic Sealer with a couple of coats of Minwax paste wax on top. Then I tested these with 1) red wine, 2) vinegar, and 3) lemon juice. I left the liquids on the test pieces for 3 hours and also for 12 hours with the following results.
1) After 3 hours - no staining and no evident sealer degradatiion,
After 12 hours - some staining and no evident sealer degradation.
2) After 3 and 12 hours - no stains and no degradation.
3) After 3 hrs - no stain and no degradation,
After 12 hrs. - no stain but appears to be some breakdown of the sealer and/or wax.

I can live with that (and rewax every couple of months), but some people want a totally impervious sealer. I'm planning on trying a couple of other possible sealers: E.A.P. and PAP (Polyaspartic Aliphatic Polyurea) but I believe these will have a very plastic look on the concrete and therefore hesitate to use them. However, I guess if someone wanted a sealer that ensured no staining there may not be any alternative.

Richard


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## SambucaJoe

*Pro formula + quickrete 5000 = ??..*

Hey Knucklez, I am about to get my concrete countertop underway based on what I have read from Cheng's book. My main problem, and why I am up at 2:30 am, is that on his website he says that his pro formula works best with sakrete and not to use it with quikrete; however, I can't get sakrete anywhere in Vancouver. Did you use quikrete 5000 with his "pro formula" or the "neo mix". I am planning on using the pro formula so I won't mess up my first attempt at a countertop. I'm thinking it will be fine, Cheng probably has an endorsement deal with sakrete. Could you please let me know if it is safe to combine the pro formula admixture to quikrete 5000. thanks, and your countertop looks great...I'm also doing a complete kitchen reno..I'll post some pics.

Joe


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## weberus3

*quickcrete product*

SambucaJoe,
I want to let you know that Quickcrete has a concrete countertop mix. I ordered it through my local Lowes. You can see the product at www.quickcrete.com. They ordered it and I picked in there and it was a good price. It was a good product. Be sure to read the directions on the bag. It calls for a certain water add, I think it was 4 quarts. I found this out by not reading the instruction on the bag. The finished product was good and set up fast. It finished out with min. number of bubbles as long as you tap it out them cover it. I practiced on making some cap stones for a wall I did. Next is the countertops. Lets us know how you coutertops turn out. Also if you Drink Sambuca I've learned to stay home!:yes:


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## SambucaJoe

Hey Weberus3, thanks for the quick reply..first one since joined yesterday. I have looked into that quickrete countertop mix but we don't get that up here in Vancouver, Canada. We only get what home depot offers, which is quickrete 5000. It sounds like a good product, but since I already commited to the Cheng book and dvd, I feel most comfortable with using everything he recommends, being that it's my first attempt. I also don't have much time to find various products from different sources and seeing how they work together because I have so many other projects on the way..as well as my first kid on the way..so I'm under a 2 month for this project and alot more. Send me some pics of how your countertop turns out, especially interested in how little vibration, if any, is needed. Thanks again..and take it easy on the sambuca next time


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## Knucklez

hi SambucaJoe,

i know EXACTLY how you feel and my build scenario and questions were similar too. its true that quickrete also makes specifically for countertops concrete mix. but will that work with cheng's pro mix? you'd have to call them to find out. however, the product is not available in your region (same as me) so its a mute point.

a few posts (pages?) back you'll find lots of discussion i had on exactly what type of concrete i used and why (i.e. reference to cheng). a brief summary is that you need quickrete 5000 COMMERCIAL GRADE (which is appearently different than quickrete 5000 with no "commercial grade" identification) to mix with chung's pro mix - if sakrete is not available. 

another question i had was how quickly to the grinding pads wear out? i couldn't find that anywhere in written/video text by chung. but i can tell you from experience you can do a lot of grinding with even the cheapest low quality pads, surely enough for one countertop.

Knucklez


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## SambucaJoe

*Knucklez..you the man*

Thanks Knucklez, I have been checking back every couple hours for your answer and you have delivered my friend. I am now confident to finally order the pro formula and all the other stuff from cheng's website and get things going. Right now I'm finishing up priming my cupboards and reinforcing them. I will hopefully spray paint them glossy white tomorrow if the weather works for me. I'll take some pics and hopefully I can help out someone as much as you have. Cheers

ps. thanks for the tip on the diamond pads..I'll buy cheap ones...200 is a little much I think.


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## SambucaJoe

*Knucklez..you the man*

Thanks Knucklez, I have been checking back every couple hours for your answer and you have delivered my friend. I am now confident to finally order the pro formula and all the other stuff from cheng's website and get things going. Right now I'm finishing up priming my cupboards and reinforcing them. I will hopefully spray paint them glossy white tomorrow if the weather works for me. I am testing our first dishwasher which I somehow managed to install( pluming and electrical) as I type this. I'll take some pics and hopefully I can help out someone as much as you have. Cheers

ps. thanks for the tip on the diamond pads..I'll buy cheap ones...200 is a little much I think.


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## user64621

Knucklez, 
the diamond disks,... wet polishing disks I've found to last longer then the dry. 50 - 400 wear the fastest but if you are just doing one set of tops you'll be more then fine. If you skip a step.... example - polish with 100 then skip 200 right to 400, the 400 pad will wear alot faster. 
I but the in between priced pads, $20-24 pads + i still have my 3000 + buff pad from 2+ years ago.


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## richardballast

Wow, this is awesome stuff. If my wife ever finds this site, I'm screwed.


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## Knucklez

yes, i used only wet grinding pads with my variable speed wet grinder (have lots of info on this in previous posts). i purchased through ebay, was pretty cheap. got a set of pads 50 through 1500 grit PLUS the grinder, taxes & delivery for $250 as i recall.

sambucajoe, another thing you might want to keep in mind.. i assume you are adding decorative stone? this is highly recommended to create some interest and colour contrast to pick up the main colour them of your kitchen (ask your wife if you're not sure, infact just ask her anyway what the main colour theme is). anyway, if you do that you must spray the melemine form with spray adhesive. i bought the RONA special as it was much cheaper than 3M product. but what i found is that the decorative stones didn't stick that well so most didn't show through to the surface. i should have paid extra for the 3M brand.. i got bags and bags of decorative stones through ebay for dirt cheap.

also.. i asked my wife if she wanted an integrated cutting board. she said no, they look ugly. so what we have now instead is a cutting board that just sits on our counter ALL THE TIME because it is used ALL THE TIME. wish we had just done the integrated cutting board now... 

richardballast - lol. maybe you should start a project like this out in the backyard.. for a small vanity or something. see how it goes.. if you're successful you can surprise her with something awesome... if your not .. well, you were just having some fun with a new hobby for a while. she may never know what you are actually doing until its done and looks awesome and you put it ontop of a vanity .. THEN she'll see it. until then, its just a concrete "thing" you have as a short term project .. nothing to see here.. just move along.

Knucklez


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## sbmfj

thanks for sharing Knucklez. your posts and photos were very helpful, as well as all the links to the other sites. did you actually order concrete mix from Fung's website? The shipping dfees must have been pretty high I imagine. all in all your counter looks great. Oh, and what does a counter look like with an integrated bread board?


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## MisterPG

Awesome thread, Knucklez! I'll be pouring my first concrete countertop some time this winter. Along with Cheng's website and his Youtube videos, your project here (and everyone else's comments) are a great resource. Thank you!


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## Knucklez

sbmfj, sorry for the late response. i am being swamped with school activities - not much fun at all.yes i actually ordered the cheng material, but i ordered it through one of their canadian resellers. i had a link for them somewhere on this thread. interstar? if you goto cheng's website you'll see examples of what the integrated cutting board looks like.

MisterPG - glad you found the thread useful, that's why it's here! 

i always appreciate people's feedback, thanks for dropping a quick note.

sometime in the new year i may actually get around to finishing the kitchen reno.. got some other things on the go right now though which are taking priority. maybe february? ho humm...

happy thanks giving to my US friends,
Knucklez


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## Lali

Very impressive! You did a treeeemendous job on the countertop. The floor looks marvelous, too. As for the backsplash, agree that the first mosaic would be a major distraction from the countertop. The horizontal layered stones are cool, too; tho' they'd create a harsh visual perception with the floor. IMHO, go with the circles; they would add a soft contrast to the rigidity of the lines in the floor & the light would play off them to enhance the beauty of your wonderful creation. :thumbup:

Thanx for sharing this, I learned alot & thoroughly enjoyed your sense of humor. :thumbsup:

Will look forward to seeing the end result!


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## Desertdrifter

*A book in the making......*

Read this complete thread and think you are doing a bang up job while providing great information and I think "*Knucklez's Odyssey" *would be an great title for your experience.*:thumbsup:
*


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## membrane

Knucklez, how did you bend the rebar and where did you find the pink foam?


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## MisterPG

*Foam Source & Rebar Bending*

Hey, Membrane... The pink foam is extruded polystyrene. HomeDepot carries "Celfort 200 Extruded Polystyrene Rigid Insulation - 1/2 In. x 24 In. x 96 In." like here http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/...ode+matchall&recN=126903&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber

As for bending rebar, you can use either a purchased, rented or home-welded hickey.. see here http://toolmonger.com/2008/06/04/bend-rebar-with-a-hickey/

or you can make up something quick and easy out of scrap lumber and spikes like here http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F8G/ISG1/F4HJIB05/F8GISG1F4HJIB05.MEDIUM.jpg

Hope this helps!


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## membrane

I'm taking on this project as I type. Does anyone know after which grit I would apply acid stain to the concrete? I was going to start wet sanding at 400 grit because I don't want much aggregate to show. After 400, I'm going to use 800 then 1500.


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## 6stringmason

That looks pretty good for a DIY'er job. I must say that I would never deliver that type of work to a customer, but you saved yourself alot of money and youre happy with it!

As far as acid staining goes, it depends on what type of sealer youre going to put on. If youre doing a precast I would say wet grind with 400 at most. THen slurry, grind very lightly to just get the slurry off and stain away. 

You have to be very carefully about this type of grinding because I've seen people have not done it right and after staining it leaves a tiger stripe effect.


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## Knucklez

membrane said:


> Knucklez, how did you bend the rebar and where did you find the pink foam?


hi membrane, to bend the rebar, i used two pieces of metal pipe (galvenized water supply pipe that i cut out earlier in the renovation). each pipe was 4' long. i slipped one piece of the rebar inside one galvenized pipe, and the other end of the rebar inside another piece of galvenized pipe. then i used muscle strength.

this works fine for bending L shaped rebar. to bend a U (or someother shape) you would need a different tool.. a pipe bending tool which you can rent from HD. but it didn't seem worth the exense, so when i need something other than an L, i used a stury shelf and a big-ass hammer.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

membrane said:


> I would apply acid stain to the concrete?


sorry, i don't know anything about proper acid stain application.

Knucklez


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## Knucklez

thanks 6stringmason for the comments. i agree, i wouldn't send this to a customer either and actually.. the streeky finish i did with the sealer makes my wife not happy. i will have to remove the sealer and try that again - this time being more careful as to how long i leave the sealer on the concrete before removing it (but otherwise we're really happy with it!)

oh the things we learn when DIY'ing. 

right now i am reno-ing a bathroom, and i have another 6 months (at least) of hard core renos to do before i have enough free time to fix sealer botch job.


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## book_j

Hi everybody,

Thanks for documenting that, Knucklez! It gave me the courage to build an outdoor concrete countertop, and it came out pretty great. Now I'm to the part where I need to grind and polish, and I'm hoping to get some advice from all you guys here. I don't really want any aggregate to show - I want it to be very matte, but also nicely polished and not too shiny. It was suggested to me that I start with 800 grit and go to 1500, but I'm actually wondering if I should just start with 1500 and stay there. I'm also not sure what kind of grinder I need and which pads I should buy. Anybody have any advice?

Thanks in advance!


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## Knucklez

hey man, starting with 1500 is probably not realistic. the concrete is too rough, you'll just chew up the sand paper.

personally, i would start with 400 and end at 800 for what you want, but i'm not a pro. 

Knucklez


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## Millertyme

knuckles great job on you ct. I just read your entire post...yes all 18 pages.and i am looking forward to making my own top. I have 7 cu ft to pour and was about to order the quikrete countertop mix from lowes but opted out after hearing its reviews on other forums. So i will be making a batch made from scratch which in turn will be about the same amount of money as the quikrete. I got my recipe from Fishstone.com. I also spent many hours researching different types of sealers and have decided on the E.A.P. I will post pics or maybe start a new thread similar to yours and tell of my experience. I have literally spent about 7 months researching, read 2 books,watching videos, and reading product reviews and experimenting in my basement to make the best countertop i can, and in the end it is forums like this that tend to be the most useful, so thank you for putting so much time into this topic.


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## Knucklez

wow.. you really do your homework before you start a project. amazing what you can learn with $2 in late fines from the library!

feel free to post your before/after pics to this thread, unless you are documenting the entire project.. then you might appreciate some space of your own.

i've been contemplating doing a second countertop... just a small one for the bathroom. will post pictures here if i do.

Knucklez


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## jennieburns25

Great project and skills. Looks like I will pick up some Sakrete and do some testing to see if I can come out with the same results.


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## BigJim

Knucklez said:


> i should check that other message board
> 
> i guess i was just trying to defend DIY'ers. i read a lot over there that made DIY sound like idiots that just are incompetents and have no business doing renovations. the truth is, we are not as good as pros, but if we can do a satisfactory job that we AND OTHER people think looks great, and it passes and exceeds code (where applicaple) then i guess we're not all bad. that was my point. when you look across the net (and this message board) you find oodles of evidence that suggests DIY'er are a competent bunch which is contrary to what was posted over there.
> 
> i'm glad we have a place to get together, share ideas and help each other. i hope others can learn from what i did right and wrong.
> 
> if a pro stops by my thread, i hope they point out what is good and what is bad so it helps everyone who reads this in the future.
> 
> Knucklez


Knucklez, I have gone back and read all of your thread and you have done a fantastic job all the way around. The above quote talking about the "PROS" looking down on DIYs, they had to start somewhere, they didn't just all of a sudden have full experience right off the bat. I have about 40 years of home building/contracting, wood working, cabinet building and all the other things that go along with being experienced under my belt. While I have done most all of it, I have never built a concrete counter top so that would make me a DIRer there wouldn't it. Some folks have to try to make other folks look bad in order to make them look good, or so they think. Sorry, to be negative here, just an ole man spoutin off. You are doing great job, I am enjoying your projects.:thumbsup:


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## Knucklez

ahhh... you're the guy i need to ask about cabinet door refinishing. wow, tough. i think i wrecked them trying to paint and add trim. i just took off all the trim and sanded down the crappy paint job i did (first time with a sprayer.. way harder than it looks). now i must re-do the entire thing. will try one more time and if it doesn't look good, i'll hire a pro or buy new.


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## Scuba_Dave

At least you can try repainting
Our cabinets need to be replaced
Original from the 50's when the house was built


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## JSBshade

WOW...some nice work :thumbsup:
I need to read thru more fo these threads for ideas


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## BigJim

Knucklez, if you could post a picture of one of your cabinet doors maybe we can help come up with a plan to refinish them. If all else fails you could put new doors and drawer fronts on. If you are pleased with the configuration of your kitchen cabinets and the boxes are in good shape, you can save a ton by replacing the face frames, doors and drawer fronts. 

I have seen folks tear out cabinets and replace them with boxes no better or worse than they took out. The boxes are what holds the contents of a cabinet anyway and the face frames, doors and drawer fronts are cosmetic. Well the face frames are both structural and cosmetic. 

If you wish to make your own cabinet doors I will be more than happy to walk you through it, if you don't already know how. If you can get an account with a cabinet supply shop you can save yourself quite a bit. The trick is to get an account there as the supply shops are pretty loyal to cabinet builders. I hope I don't tick some cabinet folks off here but this is a DIY forum. Sometimes you can get an account through another business even if it is just a cash account. 

You can buy the good plywood there as well as good lumber. The cost of the lumber will surprise you compared to the big box stores as well as the hinges, drawer slides and hardware. Oh, by the way, the cabinet supply stores will have cabinet doors you can order for your cabinets. One more note, the cost of the doors at the supply shop will be about the same cost as it would take you to build it if you figure your labor in. 

The plywood at the big box stores is seconds IMHO and not worth the extra effort to cull the bad parts out. Oh and be very careful at the big box stores, the plywood they call birch most times is not birch.


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## Knucklez

thx jiju1943, that's very kind of you. but my wife has already removed the trim i put on (she decided on a different design she likes more) and has decided to go ahead and re-prime and paint. so she has already done most of the work. all i have to do is cut some trim and glue it to the doors (i like glue here cause makes a seamless finish). she will do everything else. 

keeps her busy..

in the mean time, i just finished re-eavestroughing the entire house. up on a 30ft boom.. kinda scary when it sways in the wind! 

ps. the boom was for the installed decorative molding that was far away hard to reach by ladder.. but since it was here decided to do the eaves as well.


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## levelhead

Very inspiring thread. I read the whole thing. Knucklez you deserve some sort of reward if all the compliments are not enough! My questions, is there any way to pre-slurry the surface of the mold, using your glove to push that fine mix into all the corners and such right before the pour to try to eliminate any voids or bubbles especially along the edges? And any way to do something of an undercut frame around an under mount sink so that edge (what will be the bottom edge when right side up) is as smooth as the other edges in the mold (hope you get what I mean) Or for that matter, around the front edge that will show as well? And finally, it seems after reading that the careful preparation of the mold is very critical, could you use a vacuum form plastic laminate to provide a very smooth surface that might not need so much grinding? Thank you for your contributions here!


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## Knucklez

levelhead, i just followed the instructions in the book. the book is for a basic countertop with no fancy methods or techniques. i have not experimented with anything else. so i have no experience to draw from which would help answer your questions. 

just read the book & watch the video, all the basics are there.

Knucklez


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## JSBshade

Concrete counter-top :thumbsup:
Something I have thought of doing
But not sure I wanted to tackle it
Plus the weight
I wonder the weight VS granite ?


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## MisterPG

Concrete is only 88% the weight of granite...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=concrete+weight+vs+granite+weight&l=1


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## Scuba_Dave

Well that is interesting to know
I was sort of ruling out concrete because of the weight
...not to mention the amount of work
I am thinking about concrete for my outside bar


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## Knucklez

it may be lighter .. but it is at least two times as thick. believe me, i just had a piece that was maybe 3'x4'x2" and it was EXTREMELY heavy. 3 guys could barely .. i mean BARELY .. move it. it was slow slow going. 

but a lot of the problem was that we had no way of getting a grip on it. i was too afraid to lie it flat and carry it like a table top because i didn't want it to snap in half (probably would have been fine, but didn't want to chance it). so i flipped it on its side and then realized nobody could get a grip on it to lift. ..

but now i see at home depot they sell "gorilla grip" which is used to move sheets of plywood around like this. probably would work great for concrete countertop.


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## Scuba_Dave

I think I'd build/pour it right next to the bar
Then just flip it over onto the bar to finish it
But the bar is 3' x 10' long....that would be heavy 
Was the bottom perfectly flat ?
Did you set it in thinset or something ?
The bar has a flat top...I was thinking thinset would allow it to settle in...& provide support


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## Hunedo

i just wanted to say thanks for sharing your epic journey with all of us. i just found this thread in a google search on concrete counter tops and am glad i read it! :thumbsup:


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## no1hustler

Scuba_Dave said:


> I think I'd build/pour it right next to the bar
> Then just flip it over onto the bar to finish it
> But the bar is 3' x 10' long....that would be heavy
> Was the bottom perfectly flat ?
> Did you set it in thinset or something ?
> The bar has a flat top...I was thinking thinset would allow it to settle in...& provide support


3x10x2" you are looking at about 800 lbs. Good luck.


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## Scuba_Dave

Yeah...I could do it in 2 or 3 sections
That would help prevent cracking on such a long piece
Plus make the size manageable


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## MisterPG

Knucklez said:


> ...but now i see at home depot they sell "gorilla grip" which is used to move sheets of plywood around like this. probably would work great for concrete countertop.


FYI, I googled this little gem... Looks like it has a dimension capacity of 1-1/8-inc. I've emailed the company for weight capacity.

~m


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## Scuba_Dave

One thing I am curiuos about
If I were to make mine in 3 sections
Could I re-use the same mold 3 times ?


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## Knucklez

re-use the mold? probably most of it. i found that the side walls got pretty damaged when trying to remove the concrete from the mold. but the bottom of the mold (the large piece of melamine) was fine, maybe just needed to be wiped clean. 

some pros speak of a "release agent" for concrete molds because they MUST to re-use them for production. 

Knucklez


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## Scuba_Dave

Thanks
I will look into the release stuff
I wouldn't mind just building one form


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## jlhaslip

Dave,

Your outside bar top can be formed and poured in place. No need to carry it.
And be sure to put in a drip edge...


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## Scuba_Dave

I've always heard (thought) you had to flip them over to get the smooth finish for the top ?


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## Knucklez

no matter how good you or a hired pro is, the finished product will never be as smooth as what a mold can do.

however, in your case.. being an outdoor bbq table and super huge.. i would consider pour in place method.

Knucklez


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## Scuba_Dave

Yeah...I'm just afraid a 10' slab will crack
So considering 3 pieces instead


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## tpolk

should'nt crack but hard to move with form pour, there are video/info on pour in place. three pieces also gives replacement ease and multi color options


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## MisterPG

It shouldn't crack if your reinforcement is placed correctly.
Gorilla Grips got back to me last night - They have 3 sizes, including one "to accommodate granite, etc.", but their rated weight capacity is 200lb per unit.


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## Scuba_Dave

Yeah...I think I'd rather do 3 pieces just to make sure
There is a chance that the bar may be moved slightly
Of course that would not be easy with 800 lbs of concrete on top
If I go with the concrete I will need to reinforce the back edge
As I did not install a center support
Even with tile I had planned on one support
But with concrete I think I'd do 2 supports
One at each joint


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## MisterPG

Keep in mind, every install I've ever seen has a thick plywood sub-base under the countertop - not just the poured-in-place installations.


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## Knucklez

thx for the update on the gorilla grip. i think the best way to move this around is to flip it long way and then set it on a roller, or dolly, and just roll near where you want to install, and then get 20 guys to flip it on top of counter.

you can see in my thread how i reinforced my countertop to hold the massive weight. my wife said it was overkill.. 

but i said, "ah, but someday someone is going to also stand on this to reach above the cabinet or something" .. 

she said "that's crazy nobody is going to do that"

and what happened a year later when i came home from work one day? there she was, standing on the countertop painting the kitchen window frame.


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## MisterPG

HAHA... I LOVE overkill... yeah, we've had a few "social gatherings" where a guest or two though it was a good idea to dance on the kitchen island at 2am... Thank God for heavy lumber bracing and 3" screws


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## MisterPG

Hey, while I'm here, I'm gonna plug my most recent project post. http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/carpet-engineered-hardwood-weekend-83961/http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/carpet-engineered-hardwood-weekend-83961/#post517122


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## Scuba_Dave

Knucklez said:


> you can see in my thread how i reinforced my countertop to hold the massive weight. my wife said it was overkill..
> 
> but i said, "ah, but someday someone is going to also stand on this to reach above the cabinet or something" ..
> 
> she said "that's crazy nobody is going to do that"
> 
> and what happened a year later when i came home from work one day? there she was, standing on the countertop painting the kitchen window frame.



I've yet to see a counter top that I did not expect someone to either stand or sit on
We used to always sit on my mom's counter top


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## DIY_aaron

Great thread. Knucklez, your top is *awesome!* I would encourage any adventurous DIY'er interested in concrete counters to DO IT!

Here is a picture of my recent kitchen renovation and concrete counter top.

I'm working on my second set of counters for a family member and the I'd say the instructions given by Knucklez are excellent, well detailed. The only thing I might add is that a 3/4" plywood support top between counter and cabinet will go along way to assisting in the support of your top. I then use a piece of shoe molding to cover this up, even though it is hidden under the counter overhang.

I'll keep an eye on this thread and try to assist anyone undertaking a concrete counter project. Feel free to PM or email. Contact info is here.

-Aaron


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## Knucklez

hey aaron, thanks for the kind words. i did use 3/4" ply as a base on my countertops too, not sure if that was shown in the thread or not, but i agree it is totally required to distribute the weight and create nice level surface.

i took a look at your site and your countertops are looking awesome! i was really impressed with your bullnose. seriously, all you did was apply A LOT of caulking and then use the tool from DAP ? huh.. i never would have thought that would work. nice to know it does 

Knucklez


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## DIY_aaron

Yup, just a $5 tool for the bull nose. Sure beats a $100 and up for the grinder/router bit to do the same. I suppose you could go even cheaper and cut some cardboard, but the DAP tool is silicon resistant and cleans up really easy.

Thanks!
Aaron
http://www.diyconcretecounters.com


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## BigJim

That looks fantastic, you did a great job.:yes:


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## DIY_aaron

Here is the link to the DAP tool that I used for creating a bull nose. I think I picked mine up at my local Lowe's for $5-$7, very well worth it. I've made a few molds now and have yet to use painters tape to get clean lines, this tool does it all its own.

-Aaron
http://www.diyconcretecounters.com


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## Scuba_Dave

Seems like something you could make yourself out of hard plastic


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## dhaggett

*Quickrete 1106-80*

I tried using the quickrete 1106-80 today. I purchased 8 bags from someone who had left overs. I noticed that it was lumpy and when we tried to mix it it set hard in the mixer within 10 minutes while turning and getting the water right. any suggestions?



weberus3 said:


> For starters I enjoyed your project with the countertops. I posted photos of my project with this thread. I want to do concrete countertops but was nervous. So I did a small project first to try out my skills. I made cap stones for a wall I built around my pool. I went to Lowes' and ordered Quickrete countertop mix. (great product) it was $12.50 for 80 lb bag TN price. I mixed it just as the instructions said 4 qts of water to a bag. The mix is perfect no stones. No shinkage and busted out of the forms the next day to cure. I wanted to do the "stained glass inlay" method upside down. My cap stones is 12" wide 8' long 2" thick. It was messy to pour, screet off and viberate. But you learn as you go. **tape over the screw heads of the forms for easy removal. I'm ready to get back and polish to see the final product. I'll post some photos of my final outcome later.
> 
> ONE QUESTION, did you join any countertop edges between the sink run and the corner angle run? How did you finish this out to make it look seamless between the ends? Thanks


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## Knucklez

hi dhaggett,

sorry to hear your predicament. i am not an expert in concrete countertops so i have no idea how to fix your problem. all i can say is if you are not an expert then simply follow the instructions provided by those that are. i have not heard of the type of concrete you have used and so i have no idea if it is suitable for the task or not. 

so my advice is to stick to the instructions and follow the pros as close as you reasonably can. you can get the books and videos from the library (as i did), local book store and of course online. 

good luck.


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## RealHouswifOfOK

We had concrete countertops and a concrete 'bar' installed when we built our house in 2003. It was also a 'let's see if we can do this' type thing between my husband, and his buddy who owns a concrete company. They are dyed black, but I don't think they were really finished off properly, because in some places, we've gotten some discoloration.....which doesn't look terrible, almost like color veins in granite or marble...but just a couple of places. I do have a question, I saw on one of the links provided, that the maintenance for them is a monthly wax. I'm ashamed to say, I've never done this, or knew that I needed to. :-/ Do you guys do this to yours? What do you use? All of our countertops, and bathroom vanities, plus all of our floors....are stained concrete. In fact, we are looking to 'strip' a wax coating off our floors, in order to refinish them.....right now, they never look shiny, just buffed/almost 'dusty', which drives me crazy. But, my husband is having trouble finding a product that strips the wax well. Any ideas? Do any of you have stained concrete floors, and are they just waxed occasionally, or did you poly-urethane them/do something else? All your coutertops look lovely, job well done. Also, we have high ceilings and space between the top of our cabinets and the ceiling, which I like to decorate seasonally, so I am ALWAYS standing on the countertops, sometimes even the reinforced section of the bar (dusting the light fixture)....I never have even considered it wouldn't hold my weight. ;-)


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## Knucklez

i don't wax monthly, or at all actually. but you're right, if you don't maintain it there will be a "patina" that forms on the countertop over time no matter how careful you are. as for products, i just follow what the pros use (buddy roe or cheng).


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## Millertyme

i never wax mine. I used an EAP sealer from Kinloch USA. It is awesome stuff and works great. I never saw a need to wax.


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## toomanyscrews

Have just read this entire thread, as i am thinking of using concrete on my new kitchen counters. My only concern is the weight of them, as they would have to be 2-3 metres long. I wondered if it was possible to use MDF like they do when they cast Corian or those synthetic stone countertops - with the thick MDF in the middle of the form and the concrete sort of wrapped round it? It would be lighter?


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## Knucklez

don't re-invent the wheel.. trust the pros with their tried and true methods. do NOT leave the form on the counter.. the MDF has to come apart and removed.. then the concrete lifted and placed on the countertop.

you can calculate how heavy it will be at the end because you have the volume determined accurately and concrete weight per volume is easy to find via google.

so when it comes to weight, you only have 2 problems:
1) can you (and many buddies) lift it into place?
2) is your cabinet frame strong enough to support the weight?

i talked about both these issues in my thread. i was completely under prepared for how heavy (and awkward) it is to lift 300lbs of concrete.. but got the job done in the end.

Knucklez


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## Millertyme

my biggest slab was 1.5"x3'x7' it weight 328lbs. I figured it would take 4 people to carry it from my basement to the 1st floor. I had all types of straps ready to go but quickly realized they were not really needed. Believe it or not only 2 of us carried it most of the way.


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## toomanyscrews

Honestly I thought i could build the form then pour in the concrete to half-way up, and press thick MDF down into the middle so the concrete sort of squidged up round it. The MDF would replace some of the concrete and therefore the whole thing would be lighter. The concrete would still be maybe at least 1inch thick all over the top and sides of the MDF, and the core of MDF wouldnt be seen once the worktop was turned up the right way up....? It's how my Corian worktops were manufactured, a thick base of MDF then the corian is applied over the top and sides. The Corian itself is only about 1cm thick.


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## Knucklez

toomanyscrews, i dunno never heard of anyone doing it that way. but you could be the first! post your results and explain how it went, maybe you're on to something?

good luck!


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## Millertyme

i have seen something where they use styrofoam instead of mdf. I have a book where buddy rhoades uses this. I am not sure how rigid the piece would be when you are done though. I guess i can look in the book and let you know exactly how he did it.


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## Knucklez

i was at an Oyster bar the other day and they had a concrete countertop. the surface was epoxy flooded, looked really sharp! i do not know if the epoxy was (or can be) food safe... 

only somewhat related.. but i made a pea gravel walkway leading up to our house and didn't want the gravel to spill on to the sidewalk. so i made a house plaque out of concrete using the method outlined above. looks pretty cool, plus holds all the pea gravel. skillz & tools re-used, was very proud of myself


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## Knucklez

some 11 years later... sadly all the pictures of this thread are gone. boo.. anyway i decided to replace bridge faucet with a single pull down faucet. meant i have to core out a center hole. it was really hard to do... really. 
in 11 years i have never put any polish on the surface.. and it still looks like it did day of install. 

*HINT: *make 3 holes in your concrete countertop so you have some options! coring after the fact sucks.


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