# Is a junction box required?



## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

We are remodeling our bathroom. The new vanity sits in a different spot than the old. So, the overhead lights are in a different place. I'm building a fur down box out of cabinet grade plywood that will provide a new mounting spot for the lights over the vanity mirror.

With that said, the wiring is not long enough to reach the new electrical box. Should I put in a junction box inside the fur down so I can run an additional 18 inches or so to the new light connection?

Thanks
Mike


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If you will be adding on to the wire a junction box is required & must be accesible


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## 300zx (May 24, 2009)

Yes,But j-box has to be accessible -Would you have access the JB from the other side of the wall? Or is it a exterior wall.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

MT Stringer said:


> .... Should I put in a junction box inside the fur down so I can run an additional 18 inches or so to the new light connection?


Yes.
You can't make the connection to the new Light hanging out in space


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

OK. Thanks Dave and everybody else. I forgot about being accessible. It won't be accessible, so I think I will wait and let the electrician take care of it. He should be able to pull the wire up into the attic (YUCK!), install the box up there and bring new wire down to the new mounting spot.

I can go ahead and install the fur down box and have it ready to wire up.

Mike


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## everyman (Jan 9, 2009)

300zx said:


> Yes,But j-box has to be accessible -Would you have access the JB from the other side of the wall? Or is it a exterior wall.


Could someone explain this caveat? I actually have a couple of covered metal j-boxes in my new bathrooms' walls where I changed single overhead vanity lamps to two side mounted sconces. Fortunately I haven't finished the walls yet though so I could open them up again and move the junctions to the attic if I absolutely have to.

Is there actually a chance of failure if the wires are well twisted together and then wire nutted?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

everyman said:


> Could someone explain this caveat? I actually have a couple of covered metal j-boxes in my new bathrooms' walls where I changed single overhead vanity lamps to two side mounted sconces. Fortunately I haven't finished the walls yet though so I could open them up again and move the junctions to the attic if I absolutely have to.
> 
> Is there actually a chance of failure if the wires are well twisted together and then wire nutted?


Sure, every splice is a potential failure point. What would happen if you moved into that house after the work was done that you are doing, and one of the junctions failed? You might spend buckets of money trying to solve a problem that could have been found by peaking into the attic and finding a junction box. If you're lucky enough to be able to locate it in the attic. Maybe it's on the first floor of a house with hardwood floors above. You either rip up the floors, or tear down the ceiling. On the other hand, you might simply put a junction box in an accessible locale, like that closet on the other side of the wall, or run all new wire while you have the chance.

You bury a splice, you're a glutton for punishment.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

*Don't Bury a Splice*




MT Stringer said:


> ........pull the wire up into the attic (YUCK!), install the box up there and bring new wire down to the new mounting spot...


Mike is solving his inaccessible box problem by installing an intermediate box in the attic, which is the perfect solution in his case.

If an intermediate box solution was a big deal, I would go for a conduit solution:
 

Remove or disable the original Romex run
Install FMC from the previous, to the new box
Pull in new conductors
http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/u568053
.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Is there actually a chance of failure if the wires are well twisted together and then wire nutted?


1. The chance of failure goes up dramatically according to the level of experience. Handymen and homeowners are terrible at installing wirenuts.

2. The cable in a circuit goes from point A to B to C, and so forth. When troubleshooting any part of a circuit, you must be able to see and eliminate all junctions as posible failure points.

3. I will occaisionally bend the accesible rule if I am simply extending ONE cable.* I* am capable of making a 100% bulletproof connection because *I* have done it tens of thousands of times. *I* use the proper tools to strip the wire and the proper techniques to make the splices. *I *know *exactly* what to do.

4. That said, even though I am also cabable of making a 3 or 4 cable bulletproof splice, I won't do it because there may be an unrelated failure in another portion of that circuit and whoever troubleshoots it will be confused about my missing splices.


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## everyman (Jan 9, 2009)

220/221 said:


> *I* am capable of making a 100% bulletproof connection because *I* have done it tens of thousands of times. *I* use the proper tools to strip the wire and the proper techniques to make the splices. *I *know *exactly* what to do.


Okay Mr Wire Nut Pants :wink: what's the secret? This poor homeowner needs to know :huh:

Does it resemble this at all?

1. Carefully strip the wire so as not to nick it. Strip back 1/4" more than you need.
2. Using linesman pliers, twist the wires clockwise, and make sure they are twisting around helically rather than one twisting around the other leaving one straight.
3. Put an extra few turns on the wires going back an inch or two from the bare splice.
4. Cut the end of the splice square so that all naked wire is buried in the nut.
5. Screw the nut on and keep turning it until it starts to twist the wires more.
6. Flip the breaker, and smell for smoke 

Close?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

everyman said:


> Okay Mr Wire Nut Pants :wink: what's the secret? This poor homeowner needs to know :huh:
> 
> Does it resemble this at all?
> 
> ...


Almost there... you forgot step *#7:* Make sure the junction box is accessible.

There are a couple of rules that can be bent a little with no ill effects. This one is rarely one of them. I have pulled my hair out hunting down buried splices, very few other "slightly bent" rules have caused me such headache.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

everyman said:


> Okay Mr Wire Nut Pants......


Don't get carried away with your knowledge base. You started *>25%* of your Posts with *Questions*.


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## everyman (Jan 9, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> Don't get carried away with your knowledge base. You started *>25%* of your Posts with *Questions*.


Well this was a question too, yes? 220/221 just exuded so much confidence I was hoping some of the knowledge might drip off on me


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## everyman (Jan 9, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Almost there... you forgot step *#7:* Make sure the junction box is accessible.


Grrr, I can see that I'm going to made to go up into my attic again. You know, it's like 130 degrees up there


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

220/221 said:


> 3. I will occaisionally bend the accesible rule if I am simply extending ONE cable.* I* am capable of making a 100% bulletproof connection because *I* have done it tens of thousands of times. *I* use the proper tools to strip the wire and the proper techniques to make the splices. *I *know *exactly* what to do.





everyman said:


> Okay Mr Wire Nut Pants :wink: what's the secret? This poor homeowner needs to know :huh:
> 
> Does it resemble this at all?
> 
> ...


Don't encourage him
His head barely fits thru doorways as it is


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Okay Mr Wire Nut Pants :wink: what's the secret?


Experience. :thumbup:

I have installed tens of thousands of splices and have repaired hundreds of homeowner/handyman splices.....maybe thousands. 

I rarely use sidecutters to twist wires so most of your method doesn't apply.

You left out the *number one* instruction.

1. Cut wires the same length! This helps keep the ends from pushing out of the nut. One short/long wire makes the task difficult.

2. Strip the wire using the proper tool properly and there is no chance of nicking it.

3. Hold the wires tightly with a kung fu grip, ends evenly together, and work the nut on. Continue twisting until the wires start twisting around themselves.

When you can snatch the wirenut from my hand Grasshoppa, it is time for you to go :yes:


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

*Job Complete!*

Well, almost. Still have to install the crown molding around the top of the box.

Upon further inspection, I discovered I had just enough romex to reach to the new elect box location without having to deal with a junction box in the attic.

I built a fur down box out of Birch plywood and painted it the same as the walls. I got a pretty good fit and in real life, it looks pretty good.

Thanks to all who offered their advice.

Here's a few pics.
Mike










I got a pretty good fit.


















Finished! Dang a bulb burned out right after it was installed! :-(









A nook where the old medicine cabinet used to be.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Nice job, are the 2 outer lights on seperate switches?


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

Dave, they are all on the same switch. Do you think I should separate them? We are using the energy saving bulbs rated at 13w - replacement for 60 watt bulbs.
Mike


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I use the CFLs too
I have the overhead light on 1 switch
Then the 3 vanity lights (3 bulbs) on another switch

I was just asking because the one on the left was off


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

That bulb was one of four in a pack and it went out within 5 minutes of installing it! :-(
Mike


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ah - hope you brought it back to be replaced
I put in a built in shelf off to the side too in my bathroom


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

> Ah - hope you brought it back to be replaced


Yessir, we just got back. No problem making the exchange.
Mike


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