# Need basic breaker info please



## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

We don't help girls on this site....:laughing: 

Just kidding. What you have is a double pole 40A GFCI breaker. Try pressing the reset button. If that doesn't work the breaker may well be doing it's job. But we don't know that, yet.

The breaker is similiar to the GFCI receptacles you may have in your kitchen and bath. They have a little test and reset button on them. Hopefully resetting your breaker will solve the problem.

Keep us posted and let me know if that works.. If not, we are going to have to get more info.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

honker said:


> I've tried to just flip it on, but it won't stay.


I have a suspicion that the breaker is tripped, and you are not going to the off position first. 
A tripped breaker will typically rest in the "middle" position.
Try turning the breaker to the "off" position, then back to on. You may have to push it to off quite firmly.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks for the quick replies, here's a little more info. There is no reset button on this breaker, just the red 'test' button (same thing?) which doesn't seem to do anything when it's pushed. (It can only be pushed in slightly.) And I did make sure that the breaker is completely in the off position before trying to flip it back on, even checked it by trying to push it more 'off' than it appeared, but it was definitely off to begin with. It doesn't lock at all into the on position before sliding back off. Please keep the help coming! There are some of us girls out here trying to keep up. (Note to self... Andy's the funny guy and Speedy is, well, speedy...)


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Honker

Is there another disconnect/breaker close to the hot tub? In other words another place to turn it off and on?

It is beginning to look like you may have a fault in the hot tub or wiring causing the gfci at the main panel to trip out.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

My wit and charm is known the world over.:yes: 

The pesky thing about electricity is that you can't see it. This is why electricians are smarter than plumbers. All they have to know is **** runs down hill, and wash hands before lunch.:laughing: 

There is a (small) possibility that you have a bad GFCI breaker and the wiring is fine.

I suspect, however, the breaker is OK and you have a fault somewhere. The question is where. Stubbie is MUCH smarter than me, and as he suggests, look for another disconnect. If there is another disconnect, take all the wires loose ( after making a diagram so you can put it all back EXACTLY how it came apart) and reset the breaker. If there is no second disconnect, then take the wires loose ( making diagram as you go) and reset breaker. If the breaker does not reset after the hot tub is COMPLETELY TAKEN OFF THE WIRES then 

1: You have a bad breaker (Small possibility)
2: You have a fault in the wire between the the hot tub and the panel. If the breaker does reset, then the fault lies in the hot tub itself.

Always wear safety glasses!! I know they are nerdy but do it for your pal Andy!!


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

Yes by george "divide and conquer"
Take the circuit apart at some point and try to see if the breaker will reset. This way you can tell if the problem is before or after that point.

Carefull not to touch the ends of the wires that you have left disconnected at some point. Wire nuts or electrical tape comes in handy. And never do this arround the little family members. (THEY MAY TOUCH IT WHEN YOU ARE NOT LOOKING)


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## scrapiron (Aug 30, 2007)

Plumbers wash their hands?


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Okay... by light of day I've found a reset button on the hot tub power box, (says "push to reset" and "high limit" which I thought would be tripped from excessive heat, yes?) but it seems permanently pushed in already. I am able to pull it out a small distance and try to push it again but it's just wigglin' loose, obviously not in working order. The power box is wired continuously into the breaker box (no other reset buttons, etc.) and the outlet next to the hot tub does have a reset button which I pushed but I've got a sneakin' suspicion that the outlet isn't giving me grief here. Would the power source not being able to be reset be preventing the breaker from being turned on? Should I start at the power box and work my way back? It says 'EM 100 Power Source'. Hey, thanks a bunch for the help so far, and the laughs. While I'd rather be _in_ the hot tub, you're sure making it fun to figure out why I'm not.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

We'd rather see you in the hot tub as well.:laughing: :whistling2: :wink: 

As Jwhite said, divide and conquer is the key, here.

There has to be a way to access the electrical connection to the tub. We have got to fugure out where the fault is.


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

There is a likely hood that the two things you have found are related.

If this hot tub was installed legally there should be a disconnect of some kind within site of the tub. It may be built into the power source that you mentioned. I tryed to google the part number but did not have easy resuts. Does that thing have a manufactures name?

To trouble shoot this further, you are going to have to open up a box somewhere, where you can unhook the wires that go from the breaker to the hot tub. At the hot tub would be a prefered location. You will need a relyable tester. Not the touchless kind. And some basic hand tools.

If there is a disconnect of some kind at or near the tub. Turn it off, or pull the "pull out" out, then try to reset the breaker at the panel.

Let us know how you make out so we can guild you further.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

I traced the wires back again just to be sure, and there is definitely no break between the power source and the breaker box. Inside the power box is a mind-boggling maze of those caps you screw onto splices wires. The tools I have, but the tester I don't, so I'll have to pick one up. I learned my lesson there when I was in Germany in high school and tried to plug in a curling iron without a converter. (Hey, it was a long time ago and I was having a girl moment. We have those, you know, but we don't always want to admit it.) Anyway, back on subject... Girl question - do I have to shut off the main or do I go ahead and test for power knowing that just that breaker is off? Geez, I'll get better... Oh, yeah - the brand name on the power box is Brett Aqualine. Thanks, again. 

(Note to Andy - the "wit" part is sure working, the "charm" part, still undecided... :-} )


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

OK Honker ,

You say you can see the raceway that brings the wire from the breaker box to the hot tub. When you pull the cover off of the "power box" at the hot tub, this race way has to enter that power box somehow. 

There are some unknown factors here. Does the breaker you think controls the tub actually control the tub?? I've been surprised too many times over the years thinking I knew which breaker it was and then getting the SURPRISE.

If it was my daughter or girlfriend i would say to 

1: Go to the Lowes or Home Depot and pick up a meter. Nothing fancy.

2: Go ahead and kill the main, pull cover off tub power box.

3: Disconnect ALL wires coming from the raceway between the house and tub ( making diagram, remember?).

4: Turn power back on and attempt to reset breaker.

The reason I'm advising to go ahead and turn off the main is because even though I know you think you know which breaker it is and I'm confident what you think is correct the fact is dozens of exceedingly qualified electricians will unwittingly die this year because they thought they were sure also:furious: . If the breaker doesn't reset post back, because we ain't done yet...In fact we've barely started.

(note to Honker... Is it Honker because guys honk when you walk down the street, or do you have a honking big nose???:laughing:


Edit to add: While at the big box store, go ahead and pick up a new breaker(you need to copy all name and model number info on breakerbox) in case you do indeed have a bad breaker...We will cross that bridge when we come to it.)


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Honker

Only thing I would advise is that learning how to test and isolate is probably not the greatest place for a beginner. Especially on 240 volts and 40 amps. If you fool with this make real sure you know how to check for voltage on any wires where you are working and that you have that breaker in the main panel off. It does not appear that the hot tub is quite up to code as far as the installation is concerned though I wouldn't say that it is necessarily unsafe as far as the wiring.... given that you find the reason the gfci will not hold. It also sounds like the spa pack is in need of a little bit of attention. Maybe you could post some pictures of the control panel and let us sum up what we think? Can you also tell us if the spa wiring is in metal conduit or is it in a cable while the wiring is outside the house or show some pictures?
It may be that you are going to have to get a knowledgeable person that has experience with hot tubs to evaluate your tub and wiring. 

Stubbie


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## duke2043 (Oct 28, 2007)

IF THERE IS NOT A DISCONNECTING MEANS OUT BY THE HOT TUB IT IS NOT UP TO CODE AND I WOULD HAVE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN FIX PROBLEM WATER AND ELECTRICITY DO NOT MIX THE WAY IT SHOULD BE WIRED IS TO HAVE SPA/HOT TUB DISCONNECT WITHIN SITE OF THE TUB AND THAT IS WHERE THE GFI BREAKER SHOULD BE LOCATED.:thumbup:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

You're right to question the certainty of which breaker it is, because all I have to go off of there (except for eyeballin' it) is the word of the guy that told us the hot tub was in good working order. I'm off the Home Depot this afternoon to grab a 'nothing fancy' meter. And yes, I remember the diagram bit, which is not only a good idea but a necessity in this case, since the main power wire coming into the box appears too be brought in through the side of it and then split off and spliced and screwed to each appropriate terminal. There's the on/off on the front of the box, but no break in the wires (other than the splices/caps I mentioned) between the breaker and the the direct hook-up inside the box. I'll give all of this a go and keep you posted. Thanks, glad you're not giving up on me yet.

(And Andy, as far as 'honker' goes, I've never had any complaints about my nose, but I've also never been one to toot my own horn. It's more along the lines of Canadian Goose, I guess, 'cause when it asked for a user name I was reminded of my dad's old cb name. How's that for a boring explanation...)


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Quick add on - I just read the last couple posts and bringing in someone else might be where I end up, and I will be careful... thanks for the tips there. Can't find my camera, haven't unpacked it yet, but I can tell you that the wiring comes through the wall outside the house on the back side of the breaker box, run through painted pvc, and goes its separate ways from a box near the hot tub - both to the outlet and the hot tub. I've looked inside the covers of the boxes on the wall, and there's no switches. 

And since we're on the subject, maybe this would be a better electric project for me to take on for starters... My outside light wouldn't come on last night, so I changed the bulb and it still wouldn't work, but I checked the new bulb in a different lamp and it was okay. I went back to the switch and flipped it on without the bulb and it sparked out and threw that breaker. Shouldn't I be able to kill the power, pull off that fixture, (and then test it with my new handy-dandy nothing fancy meter) and rewire it if necessary? Any tips there? I don't want to walk off the end of the porch.

You guys are really great, I feel like I should be baking you cookies for a thanks.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

duke2043 said:


> IF THERE IS NOT A DISCONNECTING MEANS OUT BY THE HOT TUB IT IS NOT UP TO CODE AND I WOULD HAVE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN FIX PROBLEM WATER AND ELECTRICITY DO NOT MIX THE WAY IT SHOULD BE WIRED IS TO HAVE SPA/HOT TUB DISCONNECT WITHIN SITE OF THE TUB AND THAT IS WHERE THE GFI BREAKER SHOULD BE LOCATED.:thumbup:


Duke, the location of the GFI breaker is not required to be outside. It can be in the main panel.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I was fixxin to ask for a code reference.:whistling2:

Edit to Add: Oops...Upon further review 680.12 applies but only if the house was built after the jurisdiction in which "The Honkster" adopted the '05 NEC.

Where in the country do you live Honker... and, more importantly, how old is the new digs???

Edit to the edit to add: Upon further review of the Honkster's posts I'm not convinced she doesn't have a disconnect at the tub... The GFCI can stay in the panel.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

The required disconnect was not in question, the location of the GFI was.:jester:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

You're right as usual Speedy, I just tied my brain in half for nuthin.:furious:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

I, "the honkster", now find myself living in southern Missouri, (I miss Minnesota), and the pad was put up in '78, but the previous owner has put in his own additions and conversions over the last ten to fifteen years at different times. 

Thanks, and keep it comin'...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Again Honker


Yes the light would be a much better place to learn. It would appear you have a hot wire with a bare portion shorted to metal/ground. You need to put the breaker in the off postion and the switch off also. Since you know which one tripped just put it all the way off or leave tripped. Remove the switch cover and make the switch accessible. I want you to test for voltage at the switch and verify no voltage on either switch screw. This is a good place to start not necessarily the only place. Do not touch any of those screws till you verify no voltage. I also want you to tell us what kind of tester you purchased so we know how to instruct its use. I would prefer you make it simple with a tester like this.......









This tester will show both 120 and 240 volts depending on which light illuminates. You will be able to use it on the hot tub also and it is a no brainer tester.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Fix the tub and light using our wonderful advice. That is thanks enough. If you were my neighbor then it would definitely be cookies....I rewired my neighbors electric oven to gas for cheesecake.:wink: :whistling2:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, the hot tub doesn't appear to be the problem, or at least not all of the problem. I disconnected the power to it (with my swell new tester, thanks for those tips) and the breaker still won't stay on, not even a hint of it wanting to stay on. I haven't disconnected the outlet yet to check it, should that be my next step or would you assume it's the breaker itself, given the info you got? 

The outside light shouldn't be too tough, there was what looked like a mouse nest of grass all hidden and tucked up in there and one of the wires was hanging loose (it looked old). It looks like I just need to replace the part including the wires that the bulb screws into. That was the easy part, the hard part was taking a big wipe-out climbing down off the chair when I was done. It was a beauty. Darn, I could really use the hot tub...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Don't kill yourself yet, Honker. Were you wearing your safety glasses????:no: 

Is this outlet you speak of attached to the same breaker??? I guess the question is, Are the wires coming to the hot tub from the breaker box COMPLETELY ISOLATED and detached from anything to do with the Hot tub or anything else? 

I expect you've got the light figured out. But be careful!


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks for the concern, Andy, but safety glasses aren't the piece of protective equipment I should have been wearing. At least not according to my back side... 
Anywho, when he put in the hot tub he also wired an outlet to the same breaker so he could plug in his light string to set the mood out there. Sorry, I thought I mentioned that already. I'll patiently await further advice.

This is a lot of fun doing guy stuff! (Except for the wipe out, that is.) I'll be a pro in no time. Generally speaking, you'll only have to tell me something once. And cheesecake from your neighbor... hmmm... Is that what they call it now?? ;-}


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honker, i'm blushing:brows: 


The receptacle is going to have to go. It cannot stay. Whomper big code violation and safety issue. If after we fix the hot tub you want to get some "mood lighting" hooked up, then we will tackle that later. There is a possibility the fault is in the recp. anyway. Did I mention plumbers have it easier? Leaky pipe, water everywhere, fix the leak. So easy, even a caveman could do it.

Go for totally unhooking the hot tub , receptacle and anything else you can think of. Try the breaker. Divide and conquer.

You reckon he also plugged in his tape player out there and played Bon Jovi hits from the eighties???:laughing: :yes: Was he a PLAYA!!!

Sweet dreams Honkers... Wake up is 4:30 A.M. Beer distributer in ATL went out of business or relocated or some **** like that. GA power bought the building and I begin buildback tomorrow.:sleeping:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks so much for everyone's help so far. I just completely disconnected both the hot tub and the outlet that were leading into the breaker. There's nothing else hooked into it, but it still won't come on. Next step?

(And I think I did hear a faint Bon Jovi tune from yesteryear drifting around out there. You're a funny guy, Andy...)


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

The next step may be beyond a DIY project. you must open the cover to the main panel and disconnect the wires from the breaker there.

Keep in mind, this is very important. even when the main breaker is off there is live 240 volt in that panel.

If you are in any way uncomfortable with this, DO NOT TRY IT.

Disconnect the wires from the breaker and see if it will reset then.

Again. Do not do this unless you are sure that what you are doing is safe.

Touching the wrong thing inside the panel, with your hands or even a tool could be a very bad thing.

As a professional electrician I reccomend you hire this part done.


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

BTW that did not sound like bon jovi. It sounded like Rush.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, jwhite...
Thanks for the info. I'll be waiting until tomorrow either way, but I sincerely appreciate your advice. It sure is tempting to get in there myself, but I guess that's all the more reason for me to think about it. I'll keep you posted, so please stay with me. And I think you might be right, it just might have been Rush... :-}


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> Fix the tub and light using our wonderful advice. That is thanks enough. If you were my neighbor then it would definitely be cookies....I rewired my neighbors electric oven to gas for cheesecake.:wink: :whistling2:


How do you wire en electric oven to gas?


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

47, you're right, That didn't sound right. I changed the 240V 40A feed to 120V 20A recp.

Honkinator,
I think you can do it. I've got confidence. CAREFULLY remove panel cover. Dont let it fall into the panel, bad news if you do. Once you have the cover off and you're looking at the guts, Use your "nothing fancy" meter to verify there is no voltage on the breaker. To do this, put one lead on the bar were all the bare naked (yes, I said nekked) wires are. Take the other lead and check each screw on the breaker. We both know there is no power, but check anyway. Remove the wires one at time and wrap the bare ends with tape so if they accidently flop back into the panel they won't be energized. See if the breaker resets then. 

You see our goal here??? We are isolating this fault. Divide and conquer.

It coulda been Lynard Skynard ... Previous owner mighta been a *******, and "freebird" always gets their bikini bottoms off quick!:yes: :laughing:

Edit to add... If you kill the big ole main breaker at the top of the panel, while not completely safe, it is safer. Only the two big lugs where the main feed is coming in is hot then.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey there, Andy...

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I jumped in there like you said and only got shocked once. Just kiddin'! Well, I was shocked, but that was when I was thinking about your cheesecake episode, not when I unhooked the breaker. :-}

The breaker is now unhooked and still won't trip, so in this divide and conquer session I've figured out that I have a naughty breaker, right? Geez, I hope I've done everything right so far and I'm not barking up the wrong tree. If so, it sure hasn't been for lack of guidance on everyone elses part. Thanks, again, for sticking with me this far. I think I can guess the next step, but if you're willing to keep the advice coming I'm more than happy to have the help. 

I better take it easy on making cracks about the music and mood lighting... How do I know that it isn't Stubbie or Speedy that sold me the house?? And besides, what's wrong with mood lighting? ;-}


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkawonka,

The working for the neighbor for cheesecake was just that, chocolate oreo cheesecake. Now I did volunteer in Buras, La (75 miles south of NOLA) 11 mos. after Katrina for 12 days. The first order of business was wiring a FEMA Air conditioner For the volunteer Army tent. Imagine late July, 95deg in the shade, 100 percent humidity, And looking up to see the supertankers go by over the levee 'cause you're 20 or so feet BELOW FRIKKIN SEA LEVEL! Happy (and I mean happy) girl volunteers=cheesecake.:whistling2: :yes: 


What kind of panel you got? You're gonna need to CAREFULLY remove that breaker from the panel. Everyone here would feel alot better if you killed the main to do this. The panels almost thirty years old and the breaker is probably gonna be stubborn.:furious: Not any old breaker will fit. It's gotta be the right one.

The reason you have to take the recp. off this circuit is because, depending on the wire size you eventually go with, it can only be protected with a 15A or 20A breaker. I'm sure it worked for years for the Bon Jovi-Rush-Lynard Skynard listening playa, but that doesn't make it right.

There is nothing wrong with moodlighting, although I prefer candles.:wink:
Patience is the key, this is much more fun DIY than hiring some scuzzy 'trician dude, isn't it?

P.S. Stubbie or Speedy would sell you a house that would be beyond the code!!

Edit to add: There is a 5% chance that when you install the new breaker it will trip as well. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Did the breaker fail just because, or did a fault elsewhere cause the breaker to fail??? Much easier being a plumber! When are you gonna quit your day job and start your electrical apprenticeship????

Don't be discouraged! I'm confident you'll be relaxing soon in the tub. Patience is key.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Mr. Andy, 

As far as what kind of panel I got, it says Cutler Hammer. (type cc, 200 amp... what all do you need off of it? I'm letting my 'girl' show through here.) So there's more to it than just taking the old on to the store to match it up... I better keep the day job for just a little longer. And I'd love to keep an outlet out there, and I'd love it even more if you think I could handle getting that done myself. (eventually, and of course with everyone's help... including Stubbie and Speedy if they didn't take my lame attempt at a joke too seriously... :-} )

You're so right, I'm diggin' doin' the work. Just last night the outside light on the back of the house flickered when we shut the door, and oddly enough I got a little excited over solving that mystery as well. 

Thanks for the 5% warning, I'll be ready for anything. The patient part is not a problem with me and I'd rather do it right and enjoy my handy(andy)work in the end.

I'm ready and waiting for what else I need to know. And don't look now, but your charm is starting to show. 
Well, a little bit, anyway...:wink:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkytonk,

It may be as simple as taking your breaker into the store. Are the majority of your breakers black with light brown switchy things on them??? "Cutler Hammer" was probably the best answer you could have given us. For instance you could have said "Federal Pacific" or "Zinsco", In which case you would have heard me, Stubbie, Speedy, and Househelper to boot moan a collective sigh of frustrated disgust.:yes: 

Tell me about your nothing fancy meter, Can you check continuity with it?? For instance, Since your wires are disconnected from the tub, and disconnected from the panel, we could check for shorts in the wire now. (but shouldn't have to unless that five percent thing springs up). When you go to the home center (I'm spoiled, I'm five minutes from 3) bring the breaker with you, I'm guessin' your going to find what you need. This breaker must be GFCI and it's not going to be cheap. Definitely cheaper than the aformentioned electrician dude, though.

As for the recp. start to study how the hot tub wire is routed from the panel to the tub. It is in pvc, but how big??? Do you see where I am going?? Start to think how you would get three more wires out there. They aren't going to be as big, If it was my house a 15A circuit would be plenty( we were talking romantic moodlights, right? not mongo big floodlights???:whistling2: ) so the wires will be much smaller in diameter. 

Stubbie and Petey will pounce if I miss something or make a mistake. That is the beauty of this website. And they know my feelings won't get hurt either.

Why not leave your day job??? Let me guess, are you the strikingly beautiful evening news anchorwoman In your large metropolitan market??? Probably roping in half a million a year???:whistling2: :wink:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Sorry to step in the fun for a min but if you are refering to this type of breaker ??http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/f2/86/19_1_b.JPG

or this one ??

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/Ho...og/e751108a-58b5-4e0d-887a-fbbd256f4d5c_4.jpg


there is two verison of this breaker to use in the CH breaker box the brown handle type is 3/4 inch wide for single pole arrangement and the black handle type as you see on the second photo that one is a inch wide 


that will help alot more easier 

Merci, Marc


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Marc, she ain't replied yet, but a 1978 house I'm guessing black with brown switches...We will see. Is any others listed for use in that panel???? Anyone???

Edit to add, I'm not convinces this tub is original to the house... so I'd be curious the name on the breaker itself. If the honka bonk would unpack her camera and snap some shots....:whistling2: I want to see some with her new neighbors snappin' And the Honkster pointing stuff out.:yes: 

Ya'll jump in early and often.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Andy :

there are few other type of breaker but they are called "classifed " breakers but unforteally i dont have the drict listing with me right now ATM i am still looking for the listing 

Merci, Marc


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I thought I've replaced these with newer cutler hammers with no problem, but I can't remember. Also, I know one of my supply houses has the old style-- We'll have to get more info from Honker. If she had no luck, and she is exceptionally sweet to me while fawning over my vast charms, I'll figure someway for her to get the breaker. I still think the homer depot will have something, though.

It seems I've played this scenario out several years ago with these breakers on more than one occasion.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Andy in ATL said:


> I thought I've replaced these with newer cutler hammers with no problem, but I can't remember. Also, I know one of my supply houses has the old style-- We'll have to get more info from Honker. If she had no luck, and she is exceptionally sweet to me while fawning over my vast charms, I'll figure someway for her to get the breaker. I still think the homer depot will have something, though.
> 
> It seems I've played this scenario out several years ago with these breakers on more than one occasion.


 
I am sure the big box store have this pretty common item as i know for sure majtory of them will stock most common breakers on the shelf for oddballs one it will get instering [ but dont get me into the european breakers they are more crazier than this  ]

but really if this is a CH series* they havent change much for last 30-40 years just like SqD with thier QO series breakers as well.

but the early verison of CH breaker are black handled type they change to tan handled type so both are interchangable btw 


Merci, Marc 

* note that the CH series sometime called Classic series as well


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Thanks French, 

Confirms what I thought.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi again, and happy November! Sorry for the delay in my response, I was looking for my camera. (unsuccessfully...)

Andy, you're right that the breakers are black with the light brown switchy things, and also that the hot tub is not original to the house. That was put in probably in the last several years, but maybe as far back as ten to fifteen. I won't get to getting another breaker until over the weekend sometime. And it's a double switchy, like the first one that Mr. French pictured, but with a 'test' button on it.

As for the type of tester, I got the one that Stubbie pictured back on page two. I'll take a closer look at the pvc size, etc and keep you posted there. 

(and the sweet part I can probably hande if I need to, but what exactly is your definition of "fawning"? )


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Merriam-Webster dictionary: fawn-1. To show affection. 2. To court favor in a flattering matter.:laughing: 

I guessed the breaker right....I bet that means I guessed the part about the career, too?

Get that breaker (remember to take the other one with you) and there is a good chance you'll be soaking tomorrow night. Does the booty still hurt from the tumble???

I'm off to Augusta tomorrow to see my Sis and my nieces and wire an addition to their house, But I should be around a computer all weekend. We are all dying to hear how the breaker works.

Don't freak if the breaker you get doesn't look EXACTLY like the breaker you are holding. What to look for is the profile on the "back" side of the breaker where it interfaces with the "busbar" in the panel. That part must be exact.

I'd be remiss( I know you don't like stuff repeated, but after all, you are a girl:laughing: :whistling2: ) If I didn't say this breaker MUST be a GFCI. It will have a test button on it as well.

What music will be piped out the window? Will you have candles lit?? Maybe a little Barry White "Satin Soul"???:wink: 

Confidence is high and we all look foward to hearing from you. 

P.S. On that flickering light, try screwing the bulb in a little tighter.


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

would you two please get a room????


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## jwhite (Mar 12, 2006)

by the way, you are in good hands regarding the electrical advice. 

It is the rest of the line of .... hmmm (stuff) that I am not so sure about.... lol


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

She started it :yes: :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

LOL Andy .,,

but i will reply to ya in french for a sec lol 

" je ne dirai pas quelque partie dans ici "

it mean i am not going to say in here :whistling2: but other wise you handle pretty good with the electrical sisuation there.

Merci, Marc


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Damn, I took French in High school but that was almost twenty years ago.:huh:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

jwhite said:


> would you two please get a room????


My thoughts exactly!!
Andy might as well go install it for her and get his cookies!:jester:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Okay... lots of good advice in more areas than one here. 

Today I pulled out the breaker, and here's my (girl) question... Why does the breaker stay on now that it's out of the panel? Is that normal for a bad breaker, and you just don't know if it's good or not until you put it into the panel? Or is something else going on that I don't know about? It was very easy to pull out of there, and it had a little wiggle room to it, not a real tight fit like the others. 

Surprisingly, (to me, at least) neither Lowes or Home Depot in town carries this breaker. They have a 30 or a 50, but no 40's (GFCI). The guy that tried to answer my questions (since the chick in the electrical dept. had no clue... I did recommend this site to her) said that I could put in a 30 but "that would be an annoyance". (?) I'm trying to find the place on the hot tub that tells me the minimum size I need, but haven't spotted that yet. I honestly don't mind if anyone out there repeats anything to me, I only wanted you to know that for a girl I can catch on to this stuff pretty quick. (no offense to the other girls out there, I've apparently offended enough people already, but will do better, I hope ;-} ) 

And I did already know that definition of fawning, just wanted to make sure there wasn't an alternate as there appears to be more than one definition of various desserts. (And _*I*_ started it??? Hmmm...)

I have a couple more places in town to check for the breaker that aren't open on weekends (of course), so it'll be a couple days there. Anything I need to know with this new info? Thanks, as always...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Any luck getting the breaker??? 

I love all desserts with all their definitions.:whistling2:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Mr. Andy...

I found a place that stocks them here for the bargain price of $98. (!!) Someone at another place told me to throw a 50 in there instead of a 40, I can get those cheaper at Home Depot than the 40, and someone else told me I should be able to get by on a 30 for a hot tub. Your advice, please...
And what's the story on why it stays on now that it's out of the panel?

I'm trying not to be taken in by your world famous wit and charm and stick to the electrical stuff here. It's probably a good thing that you're not my neighbor...
My first question on this site and you're already getting me into trouble.:wink:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honk,

The breaker size is determined by the wire size. If the tub is wired correctly you will have #8AWG which is good for 40A. I wouldn't go higher, but lower MIGHT work. As far as the breaker resetting...I don't know, maybe somebody else will chime in. You would love it if I was your neighbor!!:yes:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Honker



> Today I pulled out the breaker, and here's my (girl) question... Why does the breaker stay on now that it's out of the panel?


Because the fault that exists is no longer monitored by the gfci telling it to trip out. You have removed power by taking it from the panel so it ain't thinkin anymore. I haven't had time to read all of this thread so I may have missed something... at any rate....do you know anyone that is knowledgeable with electricity that you don't have to hire? Your scaring the be-jesus out of me working in that panel. You are turning the main off correct? 

Do any of these look familiar...http://www.spa-pack.com/brett.htm 

Your owners manual.....
http://www.alliedinnovations.com/pdf/OM-100.PDF

The brett aqualine em 100 uses a 50 amp circuit best I can find out. This is the spa pack not the hot tub maker....who would that be?? 


Is this your breaker and how many wires connected to it? Not counting the white one that you see on the breaker.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

let me step in here for a min.

Honker let me read this right.,, you unhooked the wires from the breaker and now stay on right ?? 

if so change breaker and reset it if not resetting at all then this will get little tricky to find a stubborn " worm " in the system anyway do you have any freinds are very good on electrical system ?? if so what have to do is check the connections [ most common curpit is the netural and ground is touching each other and trip the GFCI * it will do the same thing in AFCI as well but that diffrent story ]

as long you have the both hot wires unhooked at the breaker box then go to the spa subfeed disconnect switch there and turn that breaker off and have someone have " multi meter " to " ring " aka ohm it out [ with power off of course ] check the netural to ground and hot to ground btw the hot to ground should not regester anything on the multimeter during ohm reading time. and check the ground and netural at the subpanel make sure they are not touching eachother at subpanel.

once that part is ok then rehook up the wires back at the breaker box but leave the subpanel or spa disconnect switch off. turn on the breaker for that line back on it should not trip at all but if it did trip then you have a nick on the wires somewhere along the line [ i know it can be pain in the arse ] if every thing came out ok no tripping then turn on at the disconnect switch at the spa and the breaker stay on fine but if tripped at that point then you have to do little more digging in there [ my #1 hunch will be a inline heater ] right now i will put rest of the details on hold for now but just follow what i say here if not confable with this please let us know 

Merci , Marc


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Stubbie!! Nice to hear from you again. Geez, I've kinda' missed you. 

No worries on the main, I've been extremely careful there and have shut it off for everything, just to be safe. (thanks, though, for the concern. I got a good smile out of your wording there.) The hot tub power boxes that you pictured don't match mine, but the breaker does. There was three wires connected to it - red, black and white (other than the white one shown.) Totally makes sense about why it stays on now, thanks for that explanation. Don't know who made the hot tub, but I'll look around for something. The power box I have looks like it could be a little older than those you pictured, but hard to tell.

I'm pretty new to this area, and don't know anyone with cheap electrical knowledge that they'd like to throw my way, and I'm also the only one in the house with any desire to get better educated about how to make this stuff work. I really appreciate everyone's help, and would love to see this through to the end. (the satisfaction of a diy job well done, and all that...)


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

And Mr. French... 

Thanks as well for your info. Once I figure out the correct breaker size to put in, I will work from there. Earlier in the thread I had mentioned that there is no disconnect or breaker switch at the hot tub. 

You've got quite an accent working there, it reminds me of writing to my friends from Germany. Thanks for jumping in.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Lets whoa up here a minute...I'm confused. Is the breaker in the panel or isn't it. I though we had established that with the wires pulled off the breaker BUT THE BREAKER STILL IN THE PANEL the breaker still won't reset. When the breaker is REMOVED FROM THE PANEL and Honker is holding it in her delicate girl hands, it will reset. That is the basis of my advice thus far. I don't want to **** this up so I'm gonna reread the thread.

I know what I'd do if I was there, but that is what "kind of " sucks about DIY sites.... 

Edit to add... Post #35 and Post #53 tells me I think I'm right. Honker, #10AWG is the minumim for 30Amps, #8AWG is for 40A, #6AWG for 50Amps. This is key... Even if your tub literature calls for 50A and you only have #8 wire, then you have to use a forty Amp breaker. 

If I was your neighbor you'd be soaking right now.:wink:


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> .... I know what I'd do if I was there, but that is what "kind of " sucks about DIY sites....


 Most of us who have been following this thread know what you would do, but I bet that wouldn't solve her electrical problems now would it?


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Now that right there is funny. No desserts till the problem is fixed, though, right HH? Thats how it is with girls the world around.:laughing: :yes:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok, I've read back through the posts to kinda get up to speed. There is nothing wrong with you having the gfci in your main panel but I just don't think it is the best design installation. I also notice you don't have a disconnect out by the tub. You need to have one. This also tells me that the hot tub is either very old or it was homeowner installed and codes were not followed. You also mention a plug in receptacle which is also required but it cannot be closer than 10 feet from the tub and it must be gfci protected.
So this is what I'm going to recommend. Redo the design to have the gfci in a spa panel disconnect out by the tub and a regular common trip double pole breaker in the main panel. This is going to cost you in the area of 200 bucks give or take. We are going to be able to keep the wire already used most likely. 

I would like you to see if you can tell us what size wire you have in the conduit. It should have some writing on it stating thhn/thwn 8 awg or similar. Also look to see if you can find a electrical product nameplate with the amperage and voltage requirements for your tub...gotta be there somewhere. what I found online was 50 amps for the 240 volt EM 100 but yours is older so not sure.

This is what I would like to use for your outside disconnect.....

http://www.cesmco.com/spa.html

I like these for the fact they make the outside gfci maintenance outlet an easy add on with breaker protection at the spa panel and will free up the breaker that is presently supplying your outside outlet. The gfci for the tub is also located here. The wiring is very simple. They claim these prevent and nearly eliminate false tripping but that's product advertising IMO and not why I like them. My experience with these has been exceptional however... with rare callback.

So in any event if that isn't within your budget we can go with what you have but the cost either way by the time you get the disconnect and a new gfci breaker it isn't going to be much difference.

I am also not real sure yet if that gfci is bad. But I would just as soon redesign and forget that gfci as it would appear it is bad.

There are a few ways we can test it for sure if you want but you say it has a sloppy fit and that worries me some though a little looseness isn't abnormal with the cover off the panel.

Anyway got an idea what fits your fancy redesign or keep what you have?

Stubbie


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey there, Mr. Andy...

No need for confusion on your part, you are correct about everything you said. As far as the wire size, where do I find these magical numbers that will tell me what I need to know? I'm with you so far, so thanks for keeping up the help. And I have no doubt about everything being in working order (?!) if you were my neighbor. I figured that one out two or three pages back...
(Another note to self... HH is also a very funny guy)


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Okay, Stubbie-

I was responding to Andy when you chimed in, sorry about that. I'm at work so I'll check out the things you mentioned and get back with info when I can. (wire size, etc.)

You guys have been really great, and I know I've said that before, but I really do appreciate it. Cookies (that's _actual_ chocolate chip cookies that I'm talking about, or another requested flavor) will be available to anyone close enough to come and get 'em when I get this thing finished.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Andy

I believe it was in the panel... not sure if it was seated correctly as she says it was pretty wiggly. Not being there I just think it would be best to assume its bad and start new. We could run her around in circles trying to figure it out. If it was powered with the load wires disconnected and would not reset then it is likely it is bad for whatever reason.

Honker

I really think you have done fine with this. I just think it is time to cut the losses so to speak and redo the design. We will start from scratch and test the wires for integrity and get this thing safe up to that hot tub and I have a plan to test the hot tub before you sink any money into a disconnect. If the hot tub is also bad then lets not waste your hard earned money.

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> Andy
> 
> I believe it was in the panel... not sure if it was seated correctly as she says it was pretty wiggly. Not being there I just think it would be best to assume its bad and start new. We could run her around in circles trying to figure it out. If it was powered with the load wires disconnected and would not reset then it is likely it is bad for whatever reason.
> 
> ...


 I will agree with stubbie with this one i think it time to regroup and tackle this again in diffrent angle with this sisuation.

i did overlook that part about outdoor disconnect switch i did backtracked and retranslated the langunge and switched back to engish again to make sure i am reading it right.

really IMO there are few ways to dealt with this but we will take one step at time to make it right for you.

Honker if you want to know the wire size you have to look at one of the cables it will useally marked like this " 8-3 WG NM or ROMAX " or other it will have combation of number and letters some case hard to see you may have to use the flashlight to see the imprints on it.

hope it will help with new info.

Merci, Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Marc

Post #9....she says that a reset or a high limit heater reset is not working and is obviously in disrepair. The tub appears to be older and possibly not working is a concern. The previous owner told her to just turn on the breaker but it is bad or a fault exists. Anyway at this point I don't trust the branch circuit or the hot tub or the breaker or the installation... only way i can look at it at this time.

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Merci , Stubbie i did miss that one i guess i need new reading glasses lol.

anyway i belive the older hottubs have one time thermal limit switch on the heater IIRC .,, once they tripped i dont expect them to reset at all and i am pretty much sure the heater unit is well on the way to " boneyard " i think that what the whole curpit with this and if this heater is inline type like 5.5 KW size it should be a common type like this http://www.spacomponents.com/hot_tub_heater.jpg

this photo is not the excat the same but it will give you the genral idea what to be expect to see it but there are tons of other kind of spa heaters too.

Merci, Marc


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Why would a bad heater cause the breaker to go bad....not saying it couldn't, but still. Honker, reread post six where I said Stubbie was WAY smarter than me.:yes: 

What sucks is we can't see this equipment to see if it is a total homeowner hack job, or a compliant installation (when it was installed) with simply a bad GFCI breaker. 

Perhaps a whole new disconnect is in order, I just don't know. From what the Honkster describes, she has a bad DP 40A GFCI. But as I stated earlier, which came first?, the bad breaker, or some as yet unidentified fault.

Honker, do you feel like Ohming out some wires?? 

If I was there I'd slap the wires under the AC breaker first unhooked from tub, then hooked to the tub....but I'm just a crazy electrician who long ago gave myself permission to do whatever it takes. :whistling2: I would never advise anyone on this site to do that.

I still have faith, Honk, do you????:whistling2:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Andy :

yeah i know i was kinda aiming to the heater that one of few common curpits but i was reading the whole thing again [ have to translated to french so i can get the whole picture again :yes: ]

now that did raise few question but really IMO the best way to trouble shooting this mess is ohm it.

there are some case i heard but myself i think i did see it once the control panel transformer can go bad and trip the GFCI as well.

the other possiblty is pump motor is going bad too so there is quite few ways to screen it out. but we will do this one step at the time to rule it out from starting at the soruce and work it way out.


Merci, Marc 

[ if i did see the hot tub set up i will work backward and find the curpit fast ]


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I hear ya... My goal throughout this journey was to isolate the problem. I'm 95% sure this is a breaker problem. I left myself a 5% out last week sometime.  I'm all for getting new equipment, and if she was my TV Anchorwoman (strikingly beautiful) in a large MidWest market neighbor, then thats what she would have gotten. All she has described is a breaker problem. I have to discount Post #9 . The damn reset button AIN'T NEVER EVER NEVER gonna reset if there is no power on the tub!!!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Andy in ATL said:


> I hear ya... My goal throughout this journey was to isolate the problem. The damn reset button AIN'T NEVER EVER NEVER gonna reset if there is no power on the tub!!!


 
OUI Andy :

you got it right let see how the honker will do from here let see if she can follow our directions down to the dot.

Merci, Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Again I can't see the thing so if you want to take a chance with a hot tub and water....this tub is over 10 years old as the units I researched went back to 1998 and she says the one I posted is not like hers. So I'm just a little freakin concerned .. any spa pack tub I've ever seen that old was ready for an entire spa pack change out. Post #9 should not be ignored the high limit should not be tripped (if it is) because there is no power on the spa.



> The damn reset button AIN'T NEVER EVER NEVER gonna reset if There is no power on the tub!!!


 Never use the word Never.....

Andy... it's a thermal temperatue switch it is either one time use as Marc said or resettable on water cool down power has nothing to do with it. If it is working the thermostat would have killed power to the circuit way before high limit. The circuit should be dead when you reset unless the water has cooled enough to have the t-stat call for heat. Then you basically complete the circuit to the heater contactor by resetting. But something caused the trip out. My problem with post #9 is the red button is loose and wiggly like it is tripped....why is it tripped? 

I agree that if the gfci is bad and the branch circuit is ok you can restore power to the tub and yes this is an isolate and solve problem. My concern is she may have a spa pack problem and they aint cheap. So it is more complicated than it appears IMO.

For everyones Use

The below wiring diagram is for a 1991 Brett Aqualine EM100 with thermal reset on high limit

http://www.alliedinnovations.com/pdf/W1006a.PDF

And the spa high limit temperature switch..please note the application section.....there are many types

http://spapartsnet.com/Electric-Heaters-Parts/High-Temperature-Switches/HL2101_482_0_1.html

Basic Flow Chart

http://spasupport.com/diagrams/diagram1.html



> If I was there I'd slap the wires under the AC breaker first unhooked from tub, then hooked to the tub....but I'm just a crazy electrician who long ago gave myself permission to do whatever it takes


What else would you need to tell her before she does that? Not knocking your advice Andy but slow down a tad....

If this was a homeowner install then there are a few pages of things that need to be covered before she puts herself into that tub. Replacing the gfci is a very small part of this whole problem.

At any rate I've given my opinion. I spent a few days researching this and that was part of the reason I didn't reply till yesterday. It is not in my opinion as simple as a gfci breaker replacement and I'm not replying with this stuff to impress anyone and get her in that tub so I can have a big smile on my face. The more I read this the whole deal needs to be looked at by a spa professional and or a electrician with spa experience. So I'm going to leave it at that... the age of this spa and other issues I can foresee make it impossible in my opinion to keep her safe with any long distance fix.

And yes the branch circuit needs to be restored then get to the spa problems.

My point is on the branch circuit if she buys a new gfci thats 100 bucks then a disconnect (which she needs) 30 bucks... 130 bucks plus hardware. 

Spa disconnect or a spa panel outside and regular double pole at the main about 170 bucks or so then add some of the stuff like hardware and conduit fittings so probably around 200 bucks. Might also need some wire to get from disconnect to spa pack most likely you will.

This is before she finds out if she has a spa problem to boot and I've got a gut feeling she does.

I also think the line should have been drawn when she had to get in the main panel. Doesn't matter Woman or Man you need to have been in one before under supervision and know exactly what goes on with your particular panel. It is not a place to be if you have never been in one before. No offense to Honker intended she seems pretty handy but handy doesn't get it inside a main panel IMO.

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie .,, i understand what you are saying on this mess on the spa and right now i am more inclinded to agree with you with the service pack after i was reading the wiring digram to see how it lay out.

Let me guess for a min [ this is not a answer yet ] but what if someone did replace the spa control panel before and gave this tub to Honker.,,

if that the case it will compound the issue to some degree with it.

right now if Honker is reading this my suggest is stop everything before it really screw up everything.

i know it may confuse some of us whom been keep tracking on this sistuation here and yes i do understand there is a code volation there but we will deal with that in a moment.

Honker,.. if you are reading this now my best suggest is either get a electricican or get a good freind whom know the electrical system because next part i dont know you will be conftable with this or not because it may be confusing on this part.
Let us know what you will plan to do next.

sorry about that but i feel it will be much wiser just stop for now and see where we stand so we can sort out the mess 


Merci , Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Marc 

These are all things that concern me, you know well that experience goes a long way with these spas.

We haven't even been able to verify electrical specifications as yet other than she has a 40 amp gfci serving the spa. All of these Brett Aqualine 240 volt are 50 amp that I've been able to find. I think I saw one for 30 amp maybe the one I posted not sure. Small issue but it would be nice to know what we have with Honkers spa.

Andy could be right this maybe as simple as a new beaker I just don't think I will ever be confident in saying throw in a new gfci and climb in the thing.

My feeling is that a hot tub like this situation needs to be evaluated at todays code standards. It would have to be pretty freakin old not to need an outside maintenance disconnect. There was a post where she mentioned a slew of wirenuts and that worries me some also...maybe normal or a spa pack change out or parts change out as you mentioned somewhere in the past. 

I would not power the thing with out gfci in order to test the operation... frankly that ain't a good idea. At least I would not have Honker do it that way.

Stubbie


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

You're right Stub, And I would never suggest anyone on this site power this thing without GFCI protection... What I said is what I would do if I was being paid alot of money to troubleshoot this thing.

I take that back... Since she's a girl I'd upsell her on the power pack (which I've always said could be the issue) and then I'd really upsell her on a panel change out as well as a service upgrade using the bad breaker as a selling point....$5600-6500 easy in ATL. :huh: 

Actually, I'd do none of that.. I'd diagnose the problem and fix it for a fair profit which allows me to make a very comfortable living. It is an old spa and probably does need a new power pack. She should probably go ahead and order one. I'm guessin the mess of wirenuts is where the recp was added on after the fact. As far as whether anybody can safely work in their own homes... that is not for me to decide. But the fact is, this is a DIY site and all I can do is stress safety. Which I've done. Is Honker smart enough to figure this out based on our advice??? I'd like to think so. I assure you that people less intelligent work on their homes everyday.


Or you could just hire an electrician and be done with it. Get three quotes. Be more than willing to PAY for these quotes.($25-50) THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE ESTIMATE. Post back.

Andy in Atlanta, GA


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hey Andy

I think you have done fine (just wish you were her neighbor...) If her tests were correct then you are correct the gfci is bad. Might be all there is to it. Got a feeling it goes deeper than what we see from our vantage point.

Stubbie


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honker, 

I personally work 45-60 hrs/wk. I think that even though your job as a (strikingly beautiful) TV anchorperson is probably very demanding (probably being interviewed to go national...CNN? Fox? MSNBC?) you should tighten up, take a few days, and resolve this thing. There are hundreds of DIYer's worldwide who are viewing this sucker like a soap opera and are dying to see it resolved. Fill the tub with ******* dirt and plant pansies in it for the winter.:laughing: :yes: 

I'm joking...Take your time and ANALYZE. Confidence is still high. We all have nothing but time...But if you leave us hanging no matter the outcome, millions will be crushed(me anyways).

Your pal, Andy:wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Careful Andy I live only a few hours from Honker I may go get your cookies for you.

Stubbie


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Cookies--smookies...Go fix that tub and i'll shoot you a check for half the gas you burn.:yes:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Ya guys i wondering what if Honker get the camera and take the picture and put in some kind of website and upload it or run a link so we can see more clearer what is going on.

a photo will worth a thousand words.

Merci,Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Marc 

She just moved in not to long ago and can't find the camera in all the boxes.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Me, again. Sorry for the delay...

Andy, "my pal", in post 56 you said if it was wired right it should have #8AWG. Well, upon close inspection (awfully light print) I've discovered the wire is 6, not 8. And Stubbie appears to be right about it needing to be 50 amp. I've carefully considered everyone's advice, and want to emphasize that safety definitely needs to come first. As for myself, so far I'm still comfortable with what I've done and want to continue, if you're still willing to help. Taking all of this into consideration, is it as easy as buying a 50 amp GFCI and giving that a try? (#6 is the correct wire size for it, yes? Geez, they're spendy...) Or do I need to know something else? I sure don't mean to drag this out, but I can only go as fast as other projects and the cash on hand permits. Thanks, and please reply back...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Why hell no, we aren't gonna help! we are all pissed now !

Just kidding:laughing: You are correct, #6 is for 50A. Reread all posts carefully. Especially the stuff Stubbie posted about the High limit switch. 

You were interviewing with the Fox News Channel, weren't ya?:whistling2: :wink:

Edit to add: #64 and #79 are pertinent. Although I'm not convinced you have tub problems, I just don't know. Stubbie and French think you do, and that is good enough for me. Moving into a new place is fun, ain't it?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Honker 

The wire size doesn't really tell us if it is a 50 amp requirement for the hot tub. I'm also not 100 percent sure if the gfci is actually bad though it does sound like it is. I am torn between telling you that for your own safety you should have a professional look at this and telling you to get a new gfci and see if that works.
I am also concerned that the high limit is tripped out on the heater pack which creates more problems.
I am also concerned on the age of the tub and its over all condition...ie... is it all rusted in the control compartment and in bad shape over all.

Current code requires that you have a disconnect out by the tub... this really isn't an emergency disconnect but none the less it makes things a heck of a lot safer IMO. Especially for anyone messing with the guts of the pool like changing the heater.

_I'm not going to raise cane with anyone else that wants to help you continue but I'm just not comfortable having you go on with this..your pretty handy but it is making me too uneasy. No offense intended.
_
Stubbie


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Ahh, yes... I forgot to include my thoughts on that one. (trying to phrase this so I don't sound way too girl...) In the very beginning, way back when I didn't know much about this stuff, I guess I just assumed that since the breaker wouldn't come on that the hot tub would need to be reset. In having a conversation with someone about it I mentioned that the reset didn't appear to be working because I couldn't push it in. I could grab it and pull it out slightly, no tension in it, but I couldn't push it in to reset it. The guy looks at me like I'm a dumba** and says, "Well, that's 'cuz it's not triggered. You won't be able to push it in unless it needs to be reset." And if it's the breaker that's bad, and not the hot tub, that seemed to make sense to me. Are you politely trying to tell me to hand this off? If so, I'll do that, no offense taken on my end. But - well, I better just stop there and wait for your next witty response.

And Fox turned me down, said I had too strong of a resemblance to my Uncle Butch. :wink: 
Still want to help???


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey there, Stub...

I was writing back to Andy and saw your post after I posted mine. While it appears to be an older model, everything looks to be in near mint condition under the skirting. I see zero rust anywhere, and the "maze of wires and the little screw caps" that I was talking about make a lot more sense now that I'm knowing more about what I'm looking at. I've been doing a little research on the subject outside this site to gain some extra knowledge in the field, but don't worry, I'm not getting over-confident in my abilities at this point. Everything under there, including hoses, wires, all of it, has been kept very clean and free from outside-the-skirting influence. (is that a proper term?)


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkabutchytonk,

The disconnect mentioned in post # 64 solves some problems. It eleminates the need for a $100 GFCI breaker for the panel and drops you down to $10 or so for A regular 2-pole breaker. It also makes it wicked easier to install that romantic mood lighting (you never responded to my Barry White postit was my personal favourite). 

On the other hand, if you installed a spendy 50A GFCI breaker, you might be done. As in no more worries. Stubbies big worry is you are going to install the breaker, there is a big fault in the tub, and you get hurt. I just haven't been provided evidence that this is going to happen. IN MY EXPERIENCE, one fault is the problem on this kind of service call. I COULD BE WRONG. That is that 5% chance we were talking about. Hell, weeks ago, when this whole thing started I said I didn't think it was gonna be the breaker. Because the odds were that it wasn't going to be.

This is a DIY site Honk (if that is your real name:whistling2: ) My confidence is still high. It is up to you, though. Is it cold there, Honk?

I have been called " outside the skirting influence" before, and I was just in High School.:wink:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

I was thinking of you, Andy, as I wrote the skirting bit. Just so you know...

I appreciate Stubbie's input here, because every step I take I can hear him reminding me to be careful and not scare the "be-jesus" out of him. If everything didn't look so well kept with the tub I would probably not put any more effort into it myself. I'm going to ponder this one a little bit more, and will keep you posted with questions/results. Thanks a bunch.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honka bonka bo bonka, banana fanna fo fonka,

Try calling the phone # on the link Stubbie gave for Brett Aqualine. See if you can find a serial # to give to them.

Check out how many views this sucker has gotten. I told ya, much like a soap opera:laughing: Now if your audience could only get some photos...:wink:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Handy Andy bo Bandy, 

Okay, I did some homework... And analyzed the situation... The hot tub is a 50A, figured that out between the info Stubbie gave me and finding the numbers I needed on the power pack. (Thanks, Stubbie!! Very kind of you to put as much time into that as you did, and I appreciate it very much.) I've got a credit to use up at Home Depot and while they don't carry a 50A GFI they do carry a "spa pack" thing (not the technical name, just got off the phone with them and haven't actually seen it yet), complete with shut off, 50A GFI, made for out by the tub, weatherproof, blah, blah, blah. I think it's the smartest way to go, and it'll leave me credit left over for whatever else I might need. I'll be able to get it done a lot faster (no cash out of pocket), feel a bit safer about it, and need to know that you'll walk me through some questions if I pick one up. What do you say, pal? Pleeaase.... 

My confidence is still high. Is yours? (I had to steal your line, it fit well)


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkabootyfonk,

An excellent choice. Don't forget you still need a regular 50Amp 2-pole breaker for in the panel. It's not nearly as spendy as the GFCI. You never said if your booty recovered from your fall! Your fans have been concerned. A fully recovered booty???:huh: When do we get bikini clad photos of you and your anchorwoman friends? I know you have scads of them. I know it is probably chilly in Missouri....But the tub should be HOT!:laughing: Best of luck and post the questions. Confidence is still high.

Your pal, Andy


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Pal Andy... (Nope, it just doesn't sound right. Since you're such a dessert lover, how about.....)

Okay, Cupcake... (Much better.)

The regular 50A 2-pole I can swing without a problem, I'll be picking up the rest probably (hopefully) tomorrow. So until I get back with you after checking out my new purchase, I'll throw this info out there for ya' - the outlet that is rigged up out there now was done by splicing into the main wire and branching off, leaving the spliced wires with their little caps in the junction box. Not the right, or maybe I should say best, way to do it, correct? Having an outlet out there is pretty much a must, but there's not a whole lot of room left in the pvc that it's threaded through now. Talk to me about my options there, please.

As for the condition of my booty, I've left that one alone since I've got a sneakin' suspicion that you're the only one interested where that's concerned. From my vantage point, (among other things) with me falling (hard) on said booty while keeping my eyes protected with your recommended safety glasses this seems more like a sitcom than a soap opera. And darn it, I still haven't found the camera, so the pictures are just going to have to wait. Again, I'm pretty sure the interest there is yours alone. Between your level-headed advice, the funky names you're coming up with, and your apparent desire for pics I'm not sure if I should enroll in an electrical apprentice class or invite you into a friendly game of 'you-show-me-yours-and-I'll-show-you-mine'...

It is getting chilly here, today much more so than yesterday, so the sooner I can get us into the tub, the better. Oh, yeah... Stubbie thought I'd probably be able to use the existing wires, so I gave them a good look-over and they've been completely protected from the outside elements and all seems well. I'm hoping that's the case...

Your pal, Honk


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkfudgebrowniebonk,

Cupcake huh...

I think you underestimate the interest...Anyone? Bueller, Bueller? I think I get the jist from the earlier posts that the wires from the panel come to a junction box, are cut and rejoined to continue on to the tub, but also have another set of wires going to the receptacle, right? If this is the case, then the wires that go to the outlet have to be discarded. Remove them from underneath the wirenut and reattach the wires going to the tub. But here is the rub. When you reattach the wires you have to make sure this connection is TIGHT. Are they under blue wirenuts? I'm hoping the spa pack will include a convenience recp. We shall deal with that tomorrow. We are not just telling you to get rid of this outlet for some obscure code reasons...This recp. is unsafe being protected by a 50A 2-pole breaker. We will figure something out. There is always candles:laughing: . More romantic.

A hot tub is the perfect place for a game of "doctor". Every self respecting electrician knows that.:wink: 

Andy the Cupcake


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Tootsie Pop, 

Yep, you've got the jist of the outlet situation, and yes, they're wearing the little blue hats. (Ha, ha! Just havin' some girl fun... From now I'll remember that they're 'wirenuts', which is also a fun term...) I know you are all watching out for my and everyone else's best interest, so I trust whatever reasons you give for whatever changes need to be made. Thanks, though, for the explanations to help me get better educated on the subject. 

And don't try dragging others into your little reindeer games about visual interest. I don't want anyone else feeling like they have to chime in on a subject off the main subject. 
That's your department...:wink: 

I'll probably be back here on Friday. Thanks for hanging in there...
-Honk


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkappletartonk,

While your at the store...pick up some new wirenuts. The big blue ones are pricey...but I have my reasons. Remember, we have to remake that connection PERFECTLY. Take one of the wirenuts with you. The reason I recommend new is 'cause the big blues don;t always want to thread back on tight, especially if you are taking wires out of the tap. Does that make sense?

Your sweet pie.:whistling2: :wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Honker

I'm still watching you....

I'm going to be on the road in and around Springfield, Mo. for a couple days then back home. 

I still wish you had hired an electrician and I still wish you hadn't opened up that main panel having never been in one before. But thats water under the bridge at this point. I was in a holy "be jesus" state when you implied you had never been in a main panel. We generally give advice regardless but I really wonder if that is the right thing to do sometimes. Anyway I bailed out of the thread at that point but have reconsidered since your HARD HEAD won't listen and you are determined to do this regardless. Anyway its serious time so stay focused on your safety and ask questions...which you seem to be good at.

I think you have made a great decision with the spa panel, probably the most common choice for a disconnect/gfci protection by homeowners.

One thing I want to mention is that a neutral was ran all the way to this spa from the main panel which means this spa is dual voltage 120/240 volt. Provided this was done correctly in the first place.
I assume the previous owner said it was in working order?? 

You mentioned he just said to turn on the breaker and it was good to go? Odd that it isn't working though when you did that.

At the end of this post I'm going to show some images of the correct wiring and overall look. Some spas have spa packs that can be wired either way and it will tell you if the pack is wired 240 only or 120/240. but a neutral lug may exist whether you use it or not will depend on the way the spa pack was wired for your particular tub. We don't have this information so we will have to wait and see. There may be something that tells you this on the control panel of the spa. Anyway make sure you remember how the wires connected at the tub control panel...Should be L1,L2,N,and a place for the ground wire.

It would appear this is a 120/240 tub by the wiring that exists.

Just be freakin careful putting in the new breaker in the panel and close it up and stay the heck out of there......:thumbsup: Main breaker *OFF* and watch out for the always hot lugs those big ass wires are connected to. Stand on something that is non conductive while your working in the panel and don't wet your fingers to get a better grip on something....

We need to talk to you about a lot of different things before you get in that spa. so be a little more patient. 

I'll be back in a few days so be careful. In the mean time the other guy...whats his name?? Oh Yeah...Cupcake or was it Tootsie Pop.... can take it from here....

And I wish you would consider having your local codes department come look at this installation for your own good. Small fee for a permit. Just give it some thought.

This is an image of what your going to end up with......









This is how your wiring should look, notice in the main panel the neutral will no longer connect to the breaker, this will happen at the new gfci location. Look at the diagram and follow the white wire to see how and where it terminates. The wires going to the tub leave the gfci at the bottom right. I'll be back Sunday but the electricians here can use this to help you.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Oh...SNAP!!!

Stubbie is gonna be in the same State as the Honkster???? Could it be fate?!? Will Stubbie describe how Honker's cookies taste after he fixes the tub?!? Stayed tuned, kids....This could get good.:laughing: :yes: 

The guy who wishes he was "traveling " to MO!!!!

Andy (That other guy):wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Sorry, Andy I won't have the time to fix hot tubs, I'm off for a fishing trip. Leaving in the morning. You will just have to make the drive to MO. and fix it. Beside Honkster giving her exact location over the internet is worse than getting in a main panel......


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey Stubbie, 

Thanks for the latest info, I so appreciate the time you've put in to help me out. I'll keep you posted on the wiring and what all I've picked up after I've checked it out. And I will be patient and not jump in until you give me the go ahead. 

I would never impose on you to stop by and help me out with electrical work, even if I found out you'd be right next door. But I have been known to be good luck on fishing trips before...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I could use some good luck fishing thats for sure but I'll have to leave the Honky Tonkin to the master from GA. One thing in case you get ahead of the game. The tub has a start up procedure. meaning you don't want to fire it up till you have it filled full of water so the pumps will prime and not run dry....make sense? Also have the t-stat on the heater down at it's lowest setting or off as it needs water over it or it will burn the heating element out.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Nobody loves a good fishin' trip more than me!!! What ya fishin' for Stub? I wore some small mouth bass OUT on a three day canoe trip down the Holston river 2 mos. ago!

Stubbies advice on this site is the best. None of the rest of us compete.:no: Look forward to hearing from ya Honkster.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Andy...last post for the evening...unless i can't sleep thinking about all the big ones I'll be catching.... 


We will be fishing two lakes Truman Lake and Table Rock Lake about 1 1/2 hrs drive from each other. On Truman we will be fishing for Hybrid Striped Bass ( sometimes called Wipers as they are a cross between white bass and striped bass) and largemouth bass maybe a few crappie. On Table rock smallies and largemouth.

Will be with some good friends so should be a great time.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

One last thing.... the disconnect may have to be moved a foot or two from that junction box location towards the main panel in order to get the wires long enough to connect inside the spa panel. It will just depend. That will mean the wires going to the spa and conduit may be to short to reach the new location. You may have to replace that part. You will have to cut the conduit and get some new fittings to connect to the disconnect panel. You just have to see how it works out. Anyway the disconnect needs to be no closer than 5 feet from the closest wall of the tub and insight of the tub. You also need to have something solid to anchor the spa panel to like a wall stud or use some type of hollow wall anchor that will work with your situation it will depend on the exterior siding, hopefully not vinyl... it's a pain. 

Also the non gfci breaker you will get to replace the bad (hopefully) gfci in the main panel will be the last thing you do before doing the tub start up. Always connect grounds first then neutrals then the hots as a general rule.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Candy Andy...

Got my sweet spa pack purchased, I've looked it over and read everything through, and I've got to tell ya', I'm feeling pretty good about it. Trying not to be over-confident, because I don't want to get so excited to jump in there that I skip over a safety step. (or trip over one, with my luck.) 

Stubbie had mentioned a couple things for me to watch for... Anchoring this thing to the house into a stud will not be a problem, I'll make sure it's completely secure. And there's plenty of wire for me to make the breaks that I need and still reach everything. It looks like the best place for me to put this is where it will eliminate the need for me to replace the big, blue wirenuts, I'll be installing this before that junction box. As far as the possibility of including an outlet (I do love candle light, but what if it's breezy?), what are you thinking? I had a little chat with the guy at the store, and he briefly ran me through what sounded like an easy option. I would like to hear what's on your mind there, though, please. Thanks, as always...

(Note to Stubbie upon his return from the lakes: Jumping back a few posts... Who said anything about 'Honky Tonkin' ??? I just wanted to go fishing. How'd you do?)


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkhoneyflavouredhardcandybonk,

You've got a couple of options. I'm curious as to what the Homer at the Depot said. All will disagree, but SOME of those guys and dolls know what they are talking about. One is to find an interior outlet on an exterior wall. Recieve some schooling if that is an option, and mount an outlet on the outside wall of the house. Another (easy for a pro, but hard for a girl:laughing: :wink: ) option is to pull new wire thru the exsisting (SP? brain fart) conduit and go from there.Give us a little more description of what we are looking at. Photos with a bikini involved WOULD HELP, you know! 

When it is breezy all good electricians retire to the bedroom...everyone knows that.

Andy


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Cookie... 

As far as the outlet, in a nutshell, I was told (please excuse my improper terminology, you've been with me so far so I'm hopin' you can understand what I'm saying here) I could add an outlet right from the 50A pack - three wires coming from the outlet, only one of them would be hot (sharing with the hot tub wire) and grounding the other two... Possible? Or is it possible but not smart? He pointed out where and how to do this with all the connections inside the box. As far as trying to pull another cable through the 3/4" pvc, it would be a pretty snug fit. Obviously too tough for a girl to manage... 

Just throwing that one back at ya' for fun, but don't worry about offending me when it comes to the battle of the sexes thing. I honestly believe there are certain things guys do best (well, duh...) and us girls can do our best to keep up and will sometimes pass you by. There are, however, many areas where us girls just have natural ability and while you try to keep up we can't help but leave you in the dust. Hey, it's nature. No offense to anyone of either sex.

But I'm getting off track again. Geez, you gotta' stop making me do that... Response on the outlet?? Thanks...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkamericanpiebobonk,

You got off track 'cause you mentioned the word "sex".:laughing: 

Think this one thru with me. If a receptacle outlet, by code, can only be protected by a 15A or 20A breaker(depending on the wire size), how would scabbing on a recep. at the spa pack be compliant? True, it would be GFCI protected, but the breaker (also known by us electricians, and you, our apprentice, as an overcurrent protective device(OCPD)) is fifty Amps. This puts us in the same boat as the disco listening playa who wired his outlet this way. Where is this tub in relationship to the house?

If you could find a receptacle INSIDE the house on an exterior wall...We could teach you some cool tricks to connect to it and prest... have a recptacle on the outside of the house.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Andy, 

(I'm going to try and ease off the name calling and just enjoy the ones you come up with. While I still think you're sweet, I just can't compete. Can anyone?)

Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow (I'm talking about the outlet again), I'm gonna' stick with you on the safety end of things. And actually, an inside outlet on that wall is not a problem. The hot tub is on the outside of an extra room that used to be a garage, and there's an outlet inside almost opposite of the one he rigged up on the outside. I like the idea of only having to think about wiring the tub up out there, anyway. So, trick away. I'm ready to be taught. 

I'm curious... Do the guys on this site find you as funny as the ladies do? 'Cause I don't want to over-inflate your ego, but you are a very funny guy.

HonkBonk


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

You two should boink :thumbup:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkpuddingbonk,

I'm guessing you are the only one who gets my humor on the entire internet. Why would I care what a bunch of smelly construction worker guys think?:laughing: 

Whats the outside of this house made of? Our goal here is to take the recp on the wall apart (power CONFIRMED off, of course). The recp. box will be attached to a stud (I said "stud" and it turned ya on a little, didn't it, Honk?). Once we determine which side the stud is on, we want to drill a hole in the side of the receptacle box opposite of the side where the stud is. This will put us in empty wall space. Make sense? Now is where you are going to earn your money. Using a tape measure and your smarts you have to figure out where on the exterior wall you will need to drill your hole.

Where you can mess up is drilling your hole IN THE WRONG SPOT! Measure five times if you have to!!! Others have weblinks(I am a bit of a retard on the net) which will show you products involving cutting in this recp. with a beautiful end result. Homer at the Depot has what I would use at my house, but I ain't that picky when it comes to MY HOUSE. Hopefully somebody will post the links. 

What Homer has is a "bell box" which is essentially a recp. box like the one in your wall. After drilling the hole(only as big as you need to get a piece of wire thru) in your house, take a piece of either 14/2 if the OCPD is 15A or 12/2 if the OCPD is 20A and pass it thru the hole in the recp. inside the house and then out the hole you've made in the house. The Bell box will mount to the wall much like your spa pack. Install a GFCI (requirement cause it is outside, kind of spendy $10) and a "bubble cover" and let the romantic moodlighting and swanky music take you away. The arguement could be made that a bell box and a bubble cover is going to stick out to far and look like Fido's ass. Honkinator needs to decide how complicated you want to get. What we will have accomplished is a safe and compliant installation. 

By 14/2 and 12/2 I mean NM/B with ground. Commonly called "romex" or house wire. You don't have to get "UF" which is similiar, but much spendier.

Almost forgot... Once you get you wire thru the hole of the bell box, go ahead and seal that hole with silicone. Once the installation is complete, Silicone the top and sides of the bell box, but not the bottom.

I think your having fun at this, aren't ya Honk?:yes: :whistling2: i think that's awesome. Questions are good and if I've left anything out please jump in, other pros.

Your biggest cheerleading (well that sounded gay, didn't it?:laughing: ) fan,

Andy


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

220, I'm blushing... Honkinator is a lady.:yes:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Holy sh*t, Andy, you've got me laughing so damn hard I'm going to have to read that all again, at least twice more, before I'll be able to concentrate on the parts that have to do with actual electrical wiring. 

The siding won't be a problem, and I have a window maybe a little more than a foot away from the inside outlet, so I don't think measuring it out will be that tough. Unless, of course, there's something bad about putting it that close to a window that I don't know about. The inside outlet is midway up the wall, the cable guy said that's how he knew it used to be a garage. I'm just curious, but why is that? And did I tell you I bought myself a book on the subject? (wiring, that is) I'm going to read up a little there, then _try_ to read this back through, but that definitely (girl or not) sounds like something I can handle. 

Note to 220 - Handling Andy, on the other hand, is something altogether different. I'm trying to keep my head on straight, here, so be careful on the encouragement side of things.
:wink:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I am totally innocent here.:huh: :whistling2:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

My ass...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

honker said:


> My ass...


While we are on that subject...


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks for proving my point, Mr. I am totally innocent here Cheerleader. 

I've finally got a little bit of a grip back (and no, Andy, not on my a**).

My apologies to everyone for the language usage.

Are you going to answer my outlet half way up the wall and near the window question? Or are we going to play tonight instead?? (That was a rhetorical question...)


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Playing is MUCH MORE fun.

The Window has no bearing. The fact that the recp is at "countertop" height only complicates it a little. It is that high so when a work bench is installed it would work out. COULD be a local variance of the code, but I doubt it. 

Your recp outside can be any height. Snow much??? Keep it above the snow line so you don't have to dig it out when using the tub in a blizzard. 'course if there is a blizzard I bet I could figure out how to have just as much fun inside.

The wall is likely insulated...You'll have to "fish" the wire down thru the insulation in the stud( there is that word again) space. The smallest amount of wire Homer the Depot will sell ya is 25?? feet. 14&12/2 romex has three wires in it. To go fishing, I take one of these wires and bend a little hook in it. Work it down the wall and use another little piece to hook it out of the wall. Patience and dogged determination is key, here. Or mount that sucker up high so, after carefull measuring the hole in the side of the box on the inside is an inch or two from the hole on the outside. Fido's ass comes into play when it is that high...but hey.

Notice I didn't tell ya how to wire the recp.? 'cause you got the book and you are a smart cookie, I figured you could figure that out. 

I'd rather play:yes: :laughing: :wink:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Andy, 

I'm feeling very accomplished today already, and I'm seeing the (candle)light at the end of the tunnel, but I have a couple questions...

My dear friend Stubbie in post #99 shot me a pic about the wiring. In the spa pack I've got, the breaker is positioned inside so that there's just not much room to the left of it, but I could wire it exactly how Mr. Stub showed if I need to. I'm wondering about the grounds, the guy at the Depot told me to hook them up to the bus bar between the two neutrals instead of the bus bar shown in Stub's pic. Does that matter? Am I trying to keep other wires away from the grounds? Sorry, I didn't have time yet to read my whole book, but Homer said something about that and I was fuming pretty bad and didn't catch it all. I sh*t you not, the guy was baby talking me... I was grabbing my new wirenuts (being a girl, I have to laugh at that one. It sounds like something you should be doing instead. :laughing: ) when he came up and asked if he could help me with anything. I told him no, I already found the cable clamps I needed and he says, in a talking-to-a-toddler voice, "Really? All by yourself? What a good girl!!" I swear, the guy came this close to being honk-bonked. 

Anxiously awaiting your response...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> I'm wondering about the grounds, the guy at the Depot told me to hook them up to the bus bar between the two neutrals instead of the bus bar shown in Stub's pic. Does that matter? Am I trying to keep other wires away from the grounds?


Hello Honkster

The grounds must not be connected to a bus bar that is the same one the neutrals are connected. You can see this in the image I posted. So if where the person told you is not the same bar or is not connected to the same bar or is insulated from the bar the neutrals are connected to then this is your ground buss bar.

Every spa panel is different as how you route the wires. 

Basically just wire it the easiest way that the wires can be connected without making terribly tight bends in the wire. Sometimes this depends on what entry point you use on the spa panel for the line (main panel) and load (spa) wires. 

You keep the wires away from each other in the sense you dont want anything bare touching on a wire or bare touching what a wire is connected to or the metal of the Spa box. Only the equipment grounds (green) will be touching a bar that is connected to the metal box. Everything else should be insulated from the metal box and grounds. 

What make is your spa panel and the model #? I'll check it out.

I'll try to post some images later today.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey, Stubbie! Did you pack your stringer full? 

I got ya' on the grounds, makes perfect sense, unlike what the Homer said. The buss bar he pointed out _was_ the same one that the neutral is connected to, and it's not connected to the metal box. Sometimes I wonder about those guys...

The pic you sent is a clear, easy one to follow as far as which connections go where. I'm just going to come at it from the other side to avoid those tight bends you mentioned. 

The next time you're fishing those lakes, you need to let me know. The very least I can do is buy you a drink. (No honky tonkin' implied there, silly. But I do owe you one.)

Thanks bunches. Hope you had a good trip.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkyummychocolateicecreambonk,

Do as the diagram Stubbie posted says, not what the talkin' down Homer from the depot said. You can't go wrong.

You can't be weak as a girlie cat when routing those wires. you have to bend them to your will. When attaching the wires to the GFCI in the pack and the ground and neutral to the bars you have to put your Honker booty into it and make sure they are tight. Post back, cause we are all dying to find out what happens next!:yes: 

Andy the Bonk fan


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Honkyummychocolateicecreambonk,


 
OK....I just threw up a little.


----------



## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Stubbie,

Can you review the posts posted while you were goofing off?:laughing: 

I am an idiot when it comes to this machine...but if you have time can you post a link to those nifty Arlington remodel boxes for honkster's convenience recp. so she can compare that with my Fido's ass solution?

I'll be honest...If it was a new home it would get a brick box(for brick) or a normal box for siding, and a bubble cover on the trim out.

For remodel, if it was siding, I would cut in a box and then a bubble cover..If brick people got the Fido's ass bell box and bubble cover with nary a complaint. But those Arlington boxes sure are nifty. What ya think?


----------



## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

220/221 said:


> OK....I just threw up a little.


220, Can't you see I'm just trying to work a little Andy magic, here??:laughing: 

Ya reckon it's working???:huh: I sure hope Honk isn't a four hundred pound angry lesbian in real life...:laughing: :wink: 

Just kidding Bonk.

Andy the smooth talking charmer....


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Andy, 

I'm half way through routing in the wires and had to take a quick ibuprofen break (in anticipation of the shape I'll be in later). You were not kidding about no girlie cats allowed. I'm using almost all of my four hundred pounds of muscles here... (Yeah, I caught that one. But had to give ya' a little crap about it :wink No worries, though. I'm making it go where it needs to, not taking no for an answer.

Can you even believe the nerve of that baby-talker at the Depot??? 

Another note to 220 - your last post was hilarious...:yes: 

I'm up for anything on the outlet, and feeling brave (and strong) enough to tackle a sweet-looking jobber. But in all honesty, appearance is secondary to just having one to use. I'll keep pondering that one (while I man-handle the rest of these wires) in case Stubbie chimes back in with any different ideas. Still waiting to hear if the fish were biting...

Bonk


----------



## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honkpouryoursugaronmebonk,

Check out your options on cutting in that recp...I'll always say that my way is the ugliest, but least ricky and easiest to buy. I'm guessin' you must not be four hundred lbs. if Homer from the Depot was talking down to you. Read your electrical book and listen to us... you already know more than him anyway.

How has the (strikingly beautiful) anchorwoman job treating ya? I really respect that you are attempting this your self when you probably make kajillions of $'s and hang out with Hillary Clinton...It brings a tear to my eye.:laughing: 

Andy


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, after a few good first-time-around lessons learned, I've got the pack wired. A few finishing touches tomorrow or the next, as I lost the race against daylight hours today and can't just clear my schedule and make this my top priority (sadly, 'cause although I'm whipped I'm also getting a real bang out it), and I'll be able to call it good. I'm assuming the second time I wire something like this it will go much smoother, agree? The outlet wires won't need nearly as much man-handling (right?), so I'm still ready to jump in there. 

I didn't get to the new breaker in the main panel yet, but I still feel like I got a lot more done than I actually thought I would thinking back to my first post, so I'm not too down about it. I've got a long holiday weekend coming up and no other plans than to finish up the project... 

And Andy, if I made kajillions of dollars I would have sent you a plane ticket already to take care of this for me. Stubbie's close enough that he'd just get gas money.  (But seriously, pour my sugar on you??! You're still being the funny guy, aren't ya'?)

Thanks tons for all your help, but don't leave me yet, please. I'll owe ya' if you get me through my upcoming outlet questions...

HB


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honktolateforlovebonk,

Don't know why...but I'm in some sort of bizarro Def Leppard mood tonight.

Let's review panel safety. 

1. Turn off main.
2. Don't "bonk" taking the cover off...the top lugs are hot and are unprotected by an OCPD
3. Make sure the new breaker is seated snugly and "lines up" with the other breakers.
4. Don't be a girlie cat connecting the wires up to the breakers. If you can't remember which of the two hot wires went where on the old breaker, That is OK. It doesn't matter. 
5. Put panel cover back on BEFORE turning on main breaker.
6. turn on new breaker and follow start up steps Stubbie provided.


Would the plane ticket have been first class? Would there have been some of your (strikingly beautiful) anchorwoman fan club members waiting for me as I deplaned? Would there have been champagne and caviar when I arrived at your palatial estate?...Cause if not, well....

Andy the bonker fan:wink:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Andy, 

Coach. Maybe a bag of peanuts on the plane. Cab fare. Cheap hotel. Take it or leave it. 

I'll follow all the panel safety tips, and probably let you know before I get there. Thanks again...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

honker said:


> Andy,
> 
> Coach. Maybe a bag of peanuts on the plane. Cab fare. Cheap hotel. Take it or leave it.
> 
> I'll follow all the panel safety tips, and probably let you know before I get there. Thanks again...


Oh...tripleSNAP!!!

I'm gonna have to step up that famous, smooth, Andy charm.:laughing: :huh: :jester:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Honker

Well you certainly made progress today. I had to run out to the hanger to prep the cessna as my daughter and I are going up for a few hours of cross country flying in the morning. Plus thanksgiving is coming so lots of house cleaning needs to be done. Being retired I have inherited that chore.

So lets see if I have it figured out where we are at the moment. You have the spa panel wired and mounted... conduit all the way to the 50 amp gfci spa panel from the main panel then conduit to the spa pack control box and wires connected. 

So your ready to install the 50 amp breaker in the main panel..... I assume your not going to restrip the wires so compare the length of bare to the strip gauge on the side of the breaker. If it's close to that your fine. Take the new breaker and test fit one of the wires then if that looks good and by good I mean with the wire seated in the breaker lug your not going to get insulation of the wire under the screw lug that you tighten down on the bare part of the wire. Make sure the wire insulation is stripped back far enough (but not too far..use the strip gauge) that only bare strands of wire are under the breaker lug. If you want you can use needle nose pliers to hold the wire into the breaker lug and then tighten the screw lug of the breaker. The white wire is going to go to the bar with all the other whites as will the green ground wire. You are going to need to back the screw out of the bar quite a ways and you want to look at the neutral bar because some holes are bigger than others on many neutral bars. So pick one of the bigger holes. Do not put your bare hands on the neutral bar!! Even with the main off there could be certain fault situations where current could still be on the neutral bar...so don't touch it. Use rubber or plastic handled tools as as a precaution. If you don't have an acceptable size hole in the neutral bar for the #6 awg neutral post back. 

Install the breaker and close up the panel. Do not power up the tub.... leave all the breakers in the off position. 

We need to make sure you have proper bonding of all metal within 5 feet of the pool. Including any rebar in a concrete pad if it is sitting on concrete.

So do you have anything like a chain link fence, metal handrails or any metal objects within 5 feet of the spa or 12 foot overhead of the spa? If so there should be a bonding lug inside or just outside the spa pack (control panel). Your required to have these metal objects connected to that lug with a #8 copper wire. This brings the metal around the tub to the same potential and reduces any shock hazards. The spa itself should have bonding of the metal frame pumps etc. Usually the spa are built on a common metal frame and this satisfies the bonding requirements. Take a look and see if everything seems to be bonded together by the metal frame or a wire.

Ok once your sure of your bonding fill the tub with water and add the proper chemicals. Thermostat off and spa pack off. Here are some guide lines for start up......these are universal and not specific to your spa.

*Step 1. *
Have your water tested for pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness and stain producing metals. Testing first will give you an idea of the adjustments you need to make to your water upon filling. (Complete step 2 before making any adjustments.)
*Step 2. *
Add a good sequestering agent as the spa is being filled. Once full, start the pump and filtration system and allow to circulate for 24 hours, if practical.
*Step 3. *
Test water for pH and total alkalinity. The water should be  balanced so that the pH and total alkalinity are within the normal ranges. 
The pH should be 7.2-7.8 and the total alkalinity 80-120 ppm. 
Once proper levels are obtained, you may want to use a pH lock product to prevent fluctuation of the pH and total alkalinity from refill to refill. 
*Step 4. *
Initially shock treat the water by using a quality non-chlorine shock. 
*Step 5. *
Begin to add desired sanitizer to the water following the manufacturer’s guidelines.
*Step 6. *
Test and maintain pH, total alkalinity and sanitizer at proper levels. 
*Step 7. *
Water should be drained every 3 months or as necessary to maintain proper water quality. 

*Fill The Spa With Water*
Clear all debris from your spa.
Using a garden hose, start filling the spa with water.
DO NOT use water from a home water heater or softener.
As water level rises, check inside equipment compartment for water leaks. It may be necessary to tighten loose unions and / or fittings.
Make sure SLIDE VALVES at pump(s) and heater are open. (Fully extended position)
Continue filling spa until water level is midway in the skimmer opening. All jets will be under water except neck & upper shoulder jets which will be above water level but are pointing downwards..

*Apply Power.*
Rotate thermostat knob (if so equipped) counterclockwise to the lowest temperature setting.
Apply power by turning on the spa dedicated circuit breaker.
Test the GFCI : push the TEST button and power is cut off. Push RESET and power is restored. If these do not seem to work STOP do not use your spa : Either there is no power, the GFCI is defective or the equipment is malfunctioning. Only a qualified person should do further inspection.

*Bleed The System.*

A certain amount of air is trapped in the lower plumbing. Trapped air causes poor performance and may cause heater failure. To bleed it :
Run the jets pump in low speed.
Locate and loosen the heater output union a quarter turn.
After all the air has escaped, and when water starts dripping, hand tighten the union.

*Add Startup Chemicals.
*
Turn on the breaker in the main panel. Then go to the spa panel and turn on the gfci breaker then go to the spa and turn the spa pack on.


Hope this helps get you soaking.

Stubbie


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Helps??? You're amazing!! I hope everyone appreciates you as much as I do on this site, I can't believe all the info you've been kind enough to provide. And you clean the house to boot... What a guy.  

As I'm _not_ retired, I'll need a little more time to get as far as you've taken me, but thanks so much in advance, and please stay close... It's very possible I'll have more questions along the way.

Happy flying tomorrow. I'll check for the necessary wires around the tub.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Stubbie knows more than anybody in the whole world.:yes: He is the man.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks Andy but I believe you may be over reacting......

Honker:

As for the receptacle it cant be closer than 10 feet to the spa side wall. I would prefer a cut in box so you don't have a bulky looking installation as bell boxes are generally for conduit but can be used for your installation if you want. Then you will need a "in use" weather cover installed over the bell box (see below images)This is sorta how things will go with a bell box. Do not silicone around the box.


















DO NOT get the shallow depth bell box get the deepest bell box they have. GFCI's need a ton of room or they will not fit. Also the bell boxes come with a variety and number of threaded entries you only need a rear entry or rear entry and one bottom entry. The box is meant to have an air gap behind it to prevent water build up and allows water to run behind the box when it rains. You will see little raised areas on the back of the bell box that is what those are for. You are also required to clamp the cable to the box by a listed and approved means whether you are fishing cable or not. So you will need to thread a box connector /romex clamp like this into the back of the box. You will not need the lock nut. The hole you drill will need to be big enough to allow clearance for the clamp. 

I would prefer you do a cut in box if we are dealing with a outside wall. 










This is what you will have if you do a cut in box... a nice flush fit to the outside wall. So let us know which you would like.....it would appear to me that you are capable of installing either.

"IN USE" weatherproof cover mounted over "cut in" box









Stubbie


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

If your not in a hurry for the receptacle AIFittings makes the lowest profile box I know of. Andy mentioned this earlier. This is your regional rep if your interested contact him and he will get you a box like this....you need one that will work for the type siding you have on the outside wall.

http://www.aifittings.com/whnew74_retrofit.htm
http://www.aifittings.com/whnew73.htm











*WALKER-LOUDERMILK CO.
Don Degnan
2020 East 19th Street
Kansas City, MO 64127

Phone: (816) 483-8200
Fax: (816) 241-0886*


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Honktortillachipandsalsabonk,

What kind of siding do you have? I think the "cut-in" box is an excellent idea. It does take more skill, and you are a girl and all...:laughing: . Stubbie's post was excellent as usual and really laid out your options. We anxiously await which you pick. Homer at the Depot will have gobs of cut in boxes. He may know them as "single gang remodel" boxes. You will have to trace the box on the wall and cut it pretty close to perfectly. Confidence is high, though as you are a smart cookie. The advantage it gives you (besides being not as fido's ass ugly) is a larger hole to fish through.

I think we were all hopin for scantily clad pic's of the Bonk performing this work, but as we approach the holiday season I fear we may be **** out of luck.:furious: It is chilly in Atlanta....So I suspect it is colder in Missouri...I'm guessin' Bonk would look like the little boy in "The Christmas Story". Y'all know the one.:laughing: 

Bonk's biggest fan,

Andy

PS: If we can stretch this thread out a couple hundred more posts and into June....No one ever said I wasn't a dreamer.:wink:

Edit to add: The easiest way to screw up a remodel box is to attempt to cut the box in on other than empty stud space. Measure carefully DIYers...


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Another thought on the outside outlet. Andy and/or Stubbie can tell you the straight scoop on this thought. It might be worth turning off the power to the inside outlet and taking a peak inside. It's common to daisy chain outlets, so you could have a power feed arriving at the outlet and the branch circuit continues to another outlet. Adding a third wire (romex) can be a challenge space wise unless it's a deep box. It is possible (not likely but possible) you could have a power feed and two wires (romex) heading to two different outlets and already have 3 wires. I think code limits the number of wires (romex) in an outlet box. Andy and/or Stubbie will know. I an not a pro.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I was always told you were only limited only by the number of wires in a box by how many you can cram in with a 2x4 or the butt end of an Estwing 20 oz. hammer.:huh: 

Just kidding, folks.:whistling2: 

Spebby, you raise an excellent point. While adding a third wire (assuming 14/2 and 12/2 only, no switched outlets or Multi-wire branch circuits 14/3 or 12/3) is not a problem....If there is already three wires it very well could be a code violation. The Honkinator most definitely needs to open the recp(power off, of course) and determine how many wires are in her box BEFORE she wacks a whompin' big hole in the outside of her house.

Again, Spebby...An excellent call by a DIYer. Kudos to you. Who else sees a glaring error that we have made??? Join the fun.

Andy in Bonkerville :rockon:


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi, Stubbie...

I found an inside outlet the required distance away from the tub, and while it will still be protected from the porch roof I'd like to do a cut in, per your suggestion. A little more involved, a little more fun, and they look good. While I agree with Andy's comment that you are the man, I have to say I enjoyed you calling him out on his possible over-reaction a few posts back. I'm guessing he was hoping he'd be invited along when I buy you that drink on your next fishing trip... Have a great Thanksgiving.


Hey, Spebby... 

Thanks for the tip - I'll be checking my wiring in the outlet this weekend and appreciate the help _very_ much. Ditto on the Thanksgiving wishes.


Andy, 

Well, I am "a girl and all" (you've decided to push it, I see), but Stubbie says it would appear that I could handle whatever outlet I choose. (Thanks, Stubbie!!) You're still being very helpful, which I appreciate, but why do you want to stretch this out if you're guessin' that I look like the little boy in "The Christmas Story"? I'll get back to you on the wire situation. 

Happy Turkey Day...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Honker

I don't have a lot of time today but are you wanting a description on how to do the cut in box? Or are you understanding how that is done?

I'll have a few questions if that is what you need.....in the mean time I quickly found this http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/rough_in/remodel/j_boxes/wall2x4/01/thick_wall.htm so check it out. It isn't exactly what your situation is but it will give you an idea of how it's done.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi, Stubbie, 

I don't think I have any questions yet, but wanted to say thanks for everything including your last post with more great info. I'll certainly be asking as they come up though. 

Sincere wishes for a great holiday weekend...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Your welcome and good turkey feasting to you. Gotta go for awhile .....bathroom needs cleaning.......:furious:

BTW it was 70 and Sunny yesterday and it is snowing and 21 now. 

Daughter did her first touch and go with the cessna the other day........made her Daddy proud......:thumbup:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

honker said:


> Andy,
> 
> You're still being very helpful, which I appreciate, but why do you want to stretch this out if you're guessin' that I look like the little boy in "The Christmas Story"? I'll get back to you on the wire situation.
> 
> Happy Turkey Day...


Oh Hell no...That ain't what I said at all. What I said was I wanted scantily clad pictures of the (strikingly beautiful) Honkinator anchorwoman, but figured I was ass out of luck beings IT IS WINTER!!!:whistling2: If we stretch this sucker out it could bring us into SPRING OR EVEN FRIKKIN SUMMER!!! More to follow...

Andy


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Stubbie, I'm talented on a mini ex and a loader. Ya reckon I'd be coordinated enough to fly?:whistling2: :huh: Congrats to your daughter!

Andy


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

She never did tell us if the backside was healed!!!!


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

mpsawchuk said:


> Hey, I've got a quasi-related breaker question:
> (not about the surgery)
> The guys at the hardware store sold me a 'Mechanical Time Switch' to act as a timer for my electric hot water heater. The timer directions indicate that the timer can be used for 240V application and is 'single pole single throw'. Examining my breaker in the basement, there are two hot wires coming out of a double pole breaker going directly to my hot water heater; so my question is can I (safely and legally) use a single pole single throw mechanical switch on a 2-pole system to remove power?


Since this timer is not considered the disconnecting means, breaking only one line is considered okay. Here is a diagram of a sample hookup:


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## Taipans (Feb 19, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> You need to take this into the off topic forum, if you like I can move the threads to there from here that will keep you happy.


 
You can't feel the "Electricity" in the air? :thumbup:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Being a plumber I know what it feels like. :laughing:


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

The thread...with the moderators permission, should keep it in electrical. I have an electrical question.

Should recps be installed ground up or ground down. What about baseboard recps...neutral up or down. Enquiring minds want to know. I am so confused. Will some pro out there help me!!!


See, still electrical.:laughing: 

Andy:notworthy: :clover:  Honkerbonkerdonk.


Andy back in the ATL


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Taipans, sir. The whole thread needs read to truly enjoy it. I someone would have told me three months ago that I'd be under a nurses "care". I'd of said you were crazy!!!

Andy smitten in the ATL


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Keep it on topic, or I'll move the unrelated threads into offtopic forum with a new title.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I also find it fascinating that the most respected member on the electrical forum was kind enough to post the (innocent" pics with no problem.) Please feel free to PM me with where the "offense" has taken place.

Andy


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Please Read section 3E of this site ToS.

Here I will even link you to it.

http://www.diychatroom.com/faq.php?faq=diychatroom_faq#faq_tos


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

much simpler to close it....tomorrow I'll be calmer.


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## honker (Oct 27, 2007)

First, a quick shout-out to all my good buds... Thanks for keepin' all the happy thoughts going (and coming).... 

jb, hopefully I'll be in your neighborhood fairly soon, email to follow... .. Cowboy Andy, I agree with you about all Andys being good-lookin', and I'm gonna' throw in 'all around good guys'. I have yet to have one prove that wrong... 
Stubbie, call me anytime you're around..... and thanks again.

I guess you could say we covered a little carpentry in this thread, what with all the "banging" and "nailing", but as far as I'm concerned, it started with and is still about all things electric:yes:. To my new friend (hopefully) Ron the Plumber, if you moved us from where we're at, I'd lose touch with all these great people who have come together for a little bit of reading about lucky happy-making real-life good stuff. Have a heart, guy... Ours was always in the right place. If someone's been offended I'm truly sorry, but you can't deny that the great people in this forum have enjoyed watching this project unfold. And I think it's because there's a piece of all of us in this.... Think of all the good stories out there just waiting to happen, bringing the cool people together. We all want to see and be a part of something happy, that's human nature. Can't we all just relax and enjoy the good stuff, brought about by the good guys and gals that make up this site? Pretty please??? 


Andy, 

While it's possible that this thread has broken a record, the only record I care about is the one we broke last Friday night...:laughing: That definitely involved electricity..... (wait... do batteries count??) Had to get that in there.... 
xo, Bonk:wink:


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Keep it on topic, or I'll move the unrelated threads into offtopic forum with a new title.


 
Captain Killathread is here.

What a freaking buzz killer. This is the coolest thread on the internet. You should feel privileged to be part of it.


The grounds are down in AZ with the exception of the switched outlets which are up to identify them.

Happy?


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## Taipans (Feb 19, 2008)

LOL, not to be the light of reason on this love struck thread. But I think Ron the Plumber was going to "move" this thread and all its responses to the "off topic" forum. Which means it can still be used and seen by all the members of DIY:Chatroom.

I can't find anywhere he said he was going to delete it, move to to the moon where no one can post, or even lock it. :no: 

No one needs to get upset, forum mods are suppose to keep things in order.:thumbsup:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

This thread is in violations of the ToS as stated, and as of now it is closed.

Your welcome to create a new thread in the off topic forum to continue.

If you or anyone on here feel my actions was unjust then feel free to contact Nathan (Admin) of this site, and have a talk with him about it. If my action on this thread are found to be unjustified then it will be unlocked by the site Administrator.

*Thanks 
Ron the Plumber
Site Moderator*


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

All unrelated post on this topic had been moved to Offtopic found here


http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=18787

If the title is not good let me know I'll change it, if there is others post need to be moved please tell me I'll move them.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

This thread is now opened up, please keep it on topic, all off topic post need to be posted in off topic forum

Thanks


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## Nathan (Dec 5, 2003)

Wow Ron... that was a lot of work on your part. Thanks for the effort!


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

Stay on topic Nathan !!!


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## Shark (Feb 26, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Stay on topic Nathan !!!


220/221:

In a post prior to the thread purge, Andy asked a question to try and save face...Ground in a receptacle, up or down?

In your response, you noted, ground up. Just curious as to why this is the case. Hopefully we get a response other than "that is code". :whistling2: 

I always understood the logic to having the grounds down was added safety. With the grounds down, should you use a 3-prong plug on the outlet and the cord gets extended to it's limit, in theory, the ground will remain in tact. 

The contrary, ground up, would assume the hot could potentially remain intact and the ground pulled in full extension of the cord.

Please correct my misunderstandings.


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## Taipans (Feb 19, 2008)

Shark said:


> 220/221:
> 
> In a post prior to the thread purge, Andy asked a question to try and save face...Ground in a receptacle, up or down?
> 
> ...


 
In my new home they installed all grounds "down", I am finishing my basement now, in the last year did electrical codes change? I have yet to see a outlet with the ground "up".


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

There is no code about it... only personal prefrence. I like them ground down, because the outlets look like they got the crap scared out of them!


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## Taipans (Feb 19, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> There is no code about it... only personal prefrence. I like them ground down, because the outlets look like they got the crap scared out of them!


 
LMAO! I never thought of it that way!


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Yje gruond up was so asinine, I crack my self u0.













sense of humour peopl!!!


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## Shark (Feb 26, 2008)

Andy in ATL said:


> Yje gruond up was so asinine, I crack my self u0.
> 
> sense of humour peopl!!!


Thats why we have these smiley faces. :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> In your response, you noted, ground up. Just curious as to why this is the case.


 

I install all my outlets horizontally so the only thing I have to worry about is left/right. 


Honker looks nervous in this pic.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Could always mount ALL receps in the ceiling, that way nothing could ever fall on them.

Well, maybe in bizzaro world.




220/221 said:


> I install all my outlets horizontally so the only thing I have to worry about is left/right.
> 
> 
> Honker looks nervous in this pic.


 
NICE LEGS!!!

:laughing:


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## Taipans (Feb 19, 2008)

lol


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## Nhrafan (Mar 2, 2007)

So, after reading through all of that it gets screwed up and stopped by someone over NOTHING?
What happened?
Did you ever get the thing going or what?

Seriously, people can't joke around a little and still solve problems and help each other? I personally thought it was sooooo much better than having people insult one another or talk down to someone else, but I guess they'd rather have that then people actually having a good time and still solving problems. 

Is this the end? Did anything else come of this problem?
Was the remainder taken to off-forum discussions?

I'll stop now before i "violate" something myself. (maybe that didn't sound quite right)


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Nhrafan said:


> So, after reading through all of that it gets screwed up and stopped by someone over NOTHING?
> What happened?
> Did you ever get the thing going or what?
> 
> ...


hehehehehe you said "violate" hehehehehehe


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## leezarrd (Aug 12, 2007)

*Love Potion #9*

Sounds like you missed the link to Love Potion #9. Someone decided the discussion got off topic and the juicy stuff got moved....

http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=18787&goto=newpost


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