# Rotten bottom plate & studs. (Photos)



## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

It may be mold and starting from the outside of the wall.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's the process I have in my head, tell me where I'm wrong at (if anywhere).

Since this is an exterior wall and is undoubtedly load bearing we will need to jack up the top plate of the wall to hold the load. 

Concern 1: This is an 18 foot continuous span wall. Is that an issue with the jacking process? How many feet per hydraulic jack?

Concern 2: We hoped to only lose half of the drywall in the room. I can't imagine a way of jacking up the wall without removing nearly all of the drywall - unless we removed only a section of drywall between two studs in the area to be lifted?

Once the top plate is on jacks, we would pull out the rotten bottom plate and install a new PT piece of lumber of the same dimensions. 

With the new bottom plate in place, we would let the wall down from the jack. We would begin to cut the bottom 12-14 inches off the wall studs and replace the removed piece with a new section of stud. A section of stud would be sistered to the formerly rotten piece and adhered to the wall sheathing on the backside with construction adhesive.

Concern 3: How long should the sistered pieces be if the rotten areas are 12" in length? Any rule of thumb I should know about?

Once all the rotten wood is removed, replaced with a new section of wood, and sistered to a completely new stud, we would replace the drywall and proceed.

Let me know if there's anything inherently wrong with this process. You guys are great - I really miss having my old man around to bounce these questions off of. I talk to the wife about these things and just get funny looks.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

havalife said:


> It may be mold and starting from the outside of the wall.


There's certainly some mold - which the other half is already putting a stomping on with bleach / water mix. The bottom plate is definitely rotten though - I can pull it apart with my hand in chunks. We're also going to replace as much of the insulation as we can so the mold won't continue to grow once the drywall is replaced.

The source of water infiltration was under the patio door. We're fixing that tomorrow and also addressing the larger drainage issues at the same time as this renovation.

I can't see any evidence that water is actually coming under the wall itself - it has just came under the door at least two times a year for many years and we've never been able to get a handle on stopping it. The root of the issue is inadequate drainage in our neighborhood - we're just trying to fix the damage done at the same time that we fix drainage on our property. The wood that is furthest from the door, in the back left corner of the room, is not rotten at all.


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## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

Ohhh s**t Keep the pics coming. 18' span? and you are worried about drywall. Mold is not good or easy to remove.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

havalife said:


> Ohhh s**t Keep the pics coming. 18' span? and you are worried about drywall. Mold is not good or easy to remove.


Agreed, entirely, however we've dealt with it before so we have some idea what we're getting ourselves into in the cleaning agent department.

It's not quite as difficult as many are led to believe. I think a lot of companies blow it out of proportion for marketing purposes. Is it safe? No. Is it deadly? Not really. We are working with safety equipment, etc. This all part of buying an old house I figure.

Here's the cleaning methods that the EPA suggests for commercial buildings - they're more rigorous than a home and that's what we have been using as a guide. http://www.epa.gov/iedmold1/table2.html Notice that the methods aren't incredibly rigorous. Mainly throw out anything that appears moldy and vacuum filtrate everything you can. We use a 1:4 mix of bleach and water on any affected areas daily. 

In the rooms we've restored so far we haven't seen any mold return. Doesn't mean it isn't there but so far so good. If we could get the damn humidity of our lot and geographical area to cooperate it would never be an issue!


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

"Is it deadly? Not really." Actually, my son almost died from inhaling mold spores in a closet at a rental unit. He had an anaphylactic reaction and his throat constricted, so he almost suffocated. About 1500 people die/yr from ana reacts in the US. As for your wall, I hope you are not going to DIY this. And, if you are going to remove insulation (and I think you should), throw that fiberglass in the land fill and replace it with mineral wool, wool, cotton, or cellulose. Also, do a good job of air sealing when you re-sheet rock. That may be contributing to the moisture problem, and is always a good idea regardless. Read about airtight drywall approach on buildingscience.com, if you are not familiar w/ it. Good luck, and I am sorry to see that horrendous problem you have.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

jklingel said:


> "Is it deadly? Not really." Actually, my son almost died from inhaling mold spores in a closet at a rental unit. He had an anaphylactic reaction and his throat constricted, so he almost suffocated. About 1500 people die/yr from ana reacts in the US. As for your wall, I hope you are not going to DIY this. And, if you are going to remove insulation (and I think you should), throw that fiberglass in the land fill and replace it with mineral wool, wool, cotton, or cellulose. Also, do a good job of air sealing when you re-sheet rock. That may be contributing to the moisture problem, and is always a good idea regardless. Read about airtight drywall approach on buildingscience.com, if you are not familiar w/ it. Good luck, and I am sorry to see that horrendous problem you have.


Sorry to hear about your son's troubles. I suppose in the grand scheme of things anything is deadly. Certainly your son's immune response to mold was an example of that. I don't have reason to believe anyone in our home is allergic to molds otherwise it would have already presented itself. We do wear N95 respirators when working in this room.

Most of the black you see is actually not mold - it's just rot. We do intend to replace the fiberglass insulation with something a little better. I have never read the Building Science information on air tight drywall but reaching back to undergraduate Physics I'm assuming the idea is to create a layer of air between the interior and exterior walls. Air, after all, being one of the greatest insulators.

It's probably largely achievable and we'll certainly try our best. The home is nearly 50 years old so it will be a challenge. 

Thanks very much for your input!


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

could you post some pictures of the outside where the effected area is. the sliding door where the water comes in. 
as for your idea of jacking is correct, what we do is build a temp wall out of 2x4's single on the floor and double on the ceiling then just install pre cut studs under every truss or ceiling joist. it doesn't appear that there is any hardwood flooring installed just subfloor maybe tile underlayment. if so cut the temp. studs 1" longer then what they need to be.
you could install this wall 2ft from the outside wall. it can be as long as you need it to be. but 16ft should be fine. this way you can work a longer span with out moving the jacks.. and as you start to sister up the studs use an extra one first then keep grabbing the on from the temp wall from where you just sistered. I like to use the whole stud for sistering and not short studs. For the simple reason, if I or the owner would like to put a second floor on the house in the future. 
this is the way I would aproach this job if I came across it. hope it helps. :thumbsup: Bob


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Those studs look pretty bad, can't really tell from the photo. If you are going to the trouble to jack up the wall, you may want to replace bad studs at the same time, rather than trying to treat them with strengthening chemicals.

As for jacking up the wall, I strongly recommend AGAINST use of hydraulic jacks to hold the wall up temporarily while you work. The jacks inevitably lose pressure, and they ARE NOT DESIGNED for long term support. You need to use a jacking system rated for long term support (not necessarily permanent support). There are several different kinds, including screw jacks, and jacks with steel pin locking mechanisms. There is also the option of jacking up the wall and installing temporary wood columns.

Temporary support is no joke, you can get killed if the house collapses on you. You can often rent support equipment from a good Rent All type store. If you are uncomfortable with methods and techniques, get help from someone who has done this before, and can help you through the process. You may have a couple of days of work under the temporary support, don't take chances.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Just-a-doc-----Are the floor joists resting on that wall or running parallel to it?

That will have a lot to do with how to. jack the wall. 

Also, the bottom plate should be replaced in sections--Perhaps 4 feet at a time.

The drywall ? It might be easier in the long run to remove it.(scabbing in short repair pieces on a bearing wall is not a great idea.)

Do a search here for 'jack wall'----That's usually the safest --and cheapest way to lift the wall and secure it.----Mike----


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:----Good morning everyone!

Three answers ---each 1 minute apart!:laughing:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I think terms like “horrendous problem” are a little overstated and actually lifting that part of the house (especially a full inch) may not be required. I do agree that pictures from the outside including one standing back showing what’s above and more information is needed before you proceed.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

If the stud bottoms are rotted, you need to sister another stud next to each bad stud. You can't just put a small piece on the bottom.
You add a piece *and* add a stud.
Remove all the sheetrock off the wall.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

First off, you guys were on the ball this morning. LOL :laughing:



buletbob said:


> this is the way I would aproach this job if I came across it. hope it helps. :thumbsup: Bob


Outside photos coming soon. This is a two story home but the only thing above that wall is a single story roof and a small balcony off the master bedroom. This particular wall in the photos should not be supporting the weight of the second story - perhaps indirectly but I can't imagine the weight distribution spreading over an area including this wall. Additionally, the wall does run *parallel* to the roof trusses.

The water comes in under a regular swinging door. Look for my other thread on the Building & Construction page for a photo of that. The threshold just needs to be replaced - we're replacing the entire door and threshold today in fact.

Our contractor friend basically told us exactly what you did. He also agreed on using full sister studs instead of the shorter pieces. With the cost of drywall so low in our area right now I'm sure that's what we'll do.



[URL="http://www.diychatroom.com/members/daniel-holzman-49125/"]Daniel Holzman[/URL] said:


> Those studs look pretty bad, can't really tell from the [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]photo[/color][/color]. If you are going to the trouble to jack up the wall, you may want to replace bad studs at the same time, rather than trying to treat them with strengthening chemicals.


It's likely the photo. Beyond the bottom 1' of stud the rest of the wood appears and acts virgin. It's probably not completely as low as the moisture should be (don't have one of the meters yet) but it doesn't depress when struck with a hammer. We will be running the dehumidifiers in this room for awhile before we do anything.



[URL="http://www.diychatroom.com/members/daniel-holzman-49125/"]Daniel Holzman[/URL] said:


> As for jacking up the wall, I strongly recommend AGAINST use of hydraulic jacks to hold the wall up temporarily while you work. The jacks inevitably lose pressure, and they ARE NOT DESIGNED for long term support. You need to use a jacking system rated for long term support (not necessarily permanent support). There are several different kinds, including screw jacks, and jacks with steel pin locking mechanisms. There is also the option of jacking up the wall and installing temporary wood columns.


We're going to try and look for a mining style hydraulic jack(s) with the safety pins. It's likely that a local rental store probably has one (coal mining country). With that said, I'm not going to mess around and will undoubtedly build the temporary wall and implement a jack as well. Two layers of support is certainly better than one.

With doing one wall at a time I'm hoping that we can complete each wall in a day. I can't imagine any reason it would take longer than that if we're down to bare studs before we're under temporary support. 



oh'mike said:


> Are the floor [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue ! important]joists[/color][/color] resting on that wall or running parallel to it?


There are no floor joists in this room. It's old vinyl stick on tile on top of a concrete slab.



Ron6519 said:


> If the stud bottoms are rotted, you need to sister another stud next to each bad stud. You can't just put a small piece on the bottom.
> You add a piece *and* add a stud.


That's exactly what we're going to do! Thanks for the advice!


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

JustADoc said:


> I have never read the Building Science information ...I'm assuming the idea is to create a layer of air...•• No. You use the ADA to stop air movement. No air movement, and you've cut off the larger of the typical water movement paths. Liquid water, like you had, if of course the killer, but diffusion is minor. "Stopping diffusion of water" is one reason why true vapor barrier (visqueen) are being left out in all but the most extreme environments; diffusion is a minor path.
> 
> Air, after all, being one of the greatest insulators. •• Not really. The R value of still air, 1/2" to 4", is about 1.
> 
> •• So, the name of the game is to air seal, and leave walls vapor open, to a large degree. That is just the nut shell of it. Again, good luck. You have a challenge!


 See after the bullets.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

*Exterior photos*

Here are two shots of the wall in the previous photo. To the right of each image the roof terminates over the edge of the patio and is held partially by a wall and partially by a column. There's approximately another 8 feet of roof that isn't in the first photo.

The highlighted wall was not original to the home. In the leftmost side of the second picture you will see a small corner with a vent at the bottom. That was at some point the exterior wall of the home and the den was boxed in. The outermost wall of the second story is supported by this wall - it is definitely load bearing.

This patio is essentially the root of our interior water issues. This den was built onto the existing patio slab and is at the same elevation as the outdoor patio. At some point the previous owners built the block retaining wall to try and alleviate water flow onto the patio from the yard (which is a slightly higher elevation) but it doesn't suffice. We will be installing trench/channel drains onto the patio to solve the water problems.

We had our contractor friend out today and later another contractor who was highly recommended by a colleague. The latter said the wall highlighted in red likely does bear some weight but is essentially just a beefed up partition wall with sheathing. We pulled back additional drywall and found that the contractor who boxed in this room actually did not use an entire span of base plate lumber. In several places the studs run all the way to the slab and they sandwich in a small section of baseplate. Defeats the purpose huh?

The contractor said he feels it isn't necessary to even support the wall while working - the section to be replaced is in its entirely 18 feet long. He said that he would remove the rotten bottom plate in four foot sections and immediately replace it with pressure treated lumber. Even though a four foot section is removed for a period of time, he said the load should balance out across the remaining wall. He did agree with removing the bottom 12 inches of stud, replacing it with new lumber, and sistering new studs to it.

So, with these photos in mind, would you jack up the wall or not? That's the question of the hour. One contractor basically said he would and another said no. We're not completely certain the direction that the trusses run but I suspect they run parallel with this wall given the shape of the roof.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You will need to raise the wall for 2 reasons. The new pressure treated wood will be thicker then the wood that is there and the wall has dropped some due to the rotted plate.
For something like this with not a lot of weight, I'd bolt a 2x8 across the entire wall near the top. Then take a series of 2x4's, cut a few inches longer then the distance from the 2x8 to the floor and prop them under the 2x8. Hammer the 2x4 at the bottom to take the pressure off the bottom plate. If you make the 2x4's the correct length, they will leave you enough room to work behind them to replace the plate and add the sistered studs. You should be able to take the pressure off with a stud every 3 feet or so.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> You will need to raise the wall for 2 reasons. The new pressure treated wood will be thicker then the wood that is there and the wall has dropped some due to the rotted plate.
> For something like this with not a lot of weight, I'd bolt a 2x8 across the entire wall near the top. Then take a series of 2x4's, cut a few inches longer then the distance from the 2x8 to the floor and prop them under the 2x8. Hammer the 2x4 at the bottom to take the pressure off the bottom plate. If you make the 2x4's the correct length, they will leave you enough room to work behind them to replace the plate and add the sistered studs. You should be able to take the pressure off with a stud every 3 feet or so.


That's a good thought Ron and I like that method of using the existing studs to give the wall some extra support while we work. I think that would be sufficient - the wall certainly has some load (all walls do) but it definitely isn't holding significant load. Honestly, if it were, I think the roof would have caved a long time ago. As I said, there are more studs along the wall sitting directly on the concrete slab than on the bottom plate.

I will be replacing the entire bottom plate - even the areas furthest from the door that aren't rotted - so that we can feel better knowing it has been taken care of.

You should see the wall adjacent to that one. It was, as I said, at one point the exterior wall of this home. From the outside in, it has a layer of wallpaper, a layer of wood paneling, a layer of drywall, another layer of drywall, a layer of cement backer board, and finally the studs. Unbelievable. 

Demolition alone on that side of the room is going to be a mess but luckily the bottom plate on that side won't need to be replaced. That would be a bigger beast since that wall supports the weight of the second story.

Your advice is excellent Ron, along with all the others I've encountered on here, it's good to have the advice of others who have walked this road much longer than I.


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## chrisBC (Dec 28, 2010)

Yeah I would put a 2x8 or something similar against the ceiling and use shores/screw jacks, I would think you can rent them fairly cheaply. These are poles with a threaded part in the middle, you can adjust this length using the threads and the handle.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I see no reason to jack up anything and certainly no reason to rent jacks. You can pull a string along the ceiling to see if anything has dropped but I doubt it. If it has you would see signs in the sheetrock where the wall meets the ceiling.

This is a simple partition wall running parallel with the trusses. Since you’re cutting a foot off these studs anyway a thicker plate than original is not a issue. 

Support the wall if you want but I agree with your second contractor on this. Be sure that the load from your deck post is continues down to the slab, if not add something there.

What are your plans for the rotten sheathing?


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

kwikfishron said:


> I see no reason to jack up anything and certainly no reason to rent jacks. You can pull a string along the ceiling to see if anything has dropped but I doubt it. If it has you would see signs in the sheetrock where the wall meets the ceiling.
> 
> This is a simple partition wall running parallel with the trusses. Since you’re cutting a foot off these studs anyway a thicker plate than original is not a issue.
> 
> ...


Surprisingly the sheathing doesn't seem that bad. We're not completely gutted yet but we're getting there. I can't see what's on the 1.5" of sheathing behind the bottom plate just yet but hopefully no major surprises. I'm hoping we don't have to mess with it otherwise this will balloon into a much bigger project. We can't access the sheathing from the exterior wall without destroying the stone. It's not veneer, it's actual stacked stone, and we would hate to lose it.

Since there's no elevation change between the patio and the interior of the den we are considering just blocking the doorway up and losing the door. As it stands now, there's 5 exterior doors on the bottom floor and it's a bit overkill. Drainage will always be an issue with that doorway I'm afraid. The problem is we'll have a hard time matching it but we can get creative I suppose!


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I wouldn’t want to lose the door, the more egress the better. 

If your guy gets the channel drain system right and you keep it maintained should be enough to take care of the problem.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

*Update*

Here's where I'm at. The entire room is demo'd, insulation removed, and I'm down to the studs. 

The bottom foot or less of "sheathing" (if you want to call it that) has to go. I know that typically the solution to this is removing whatever is on the outside and replacing the entire wall sheathing. I'm hoping I can do this without having to go to that extreme.

From the interior toward the exterior we have:
1 - Studs
2 - Black Fiber Board? No idea what to call it.
3 - Regular fiber board
4 - Tar paper... assumably for a vapor barrier of sorts.
5 - Concrete mesh
6 - Rock veneer installed in a chair-rail style on the patio - about 4 feet high.
7 - Virginia mountain air

So, assuming I can expose the bottom foot of the masonry mesh can I do this from the inside? I realize this has been asked a million times.

Here's what I would propose:

After removing the bottom foot of material from a section of wall, cover the back of the mesh in some kind of rubber membrane. Either traditional flashing or some kind of paint on membrane.

Install a 1" or 2x1/2" section(s) of PT plywood with construction adhesive or something similar.

Caulk/foam the hell out of it.

Sister the studs and replace the bottom plate as previously stated.

There's no vapor barrier on the home besides the tar paper. The wall is built directly on the slab - no flashing.

This wall is under a covered patio and the water source has been identified and fixed. Water backed up onto the patio via an antiquated PVC drain that was replaced this past weekend.

Thoughts?

Overall wall construction:











Blackboard? Closest to interior.











Fiberboard, being used as sheathing:











Layer of tar paper between the fiberboard and the concrete mesh:











Concrete mesh, stone veneer applied to outside of home up to approximately 4 feet.











Another shot of overall wall construction - five layers - blackboard, fiber board, tar paper, concrete mesh, stone veneer.


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## JustADoc (Jul 17, 2011)

We also ran across this on inspectapedia. Would this work?


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