# Can I install European light switch on NA system?



## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

I admit, I'm jealous of the European style light switches, with the little white buttons instead of the standard switches they have here in Canada. I don't know much about the design of the European wall switches, other than they are designed for 250v 10a systems. And that I can buy them on eBay! So I am wondering if anyone can tell me whether it might be possible for me to install the European 250v light switches on a North American 120v system?


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

They will operate but if they are not UL listed for use then they are against code.


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## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

Evstarr said:


> They will operate but if they are not UL listed for use then they are against code.


Great, we don't have UL in Canada, so no worries! :laughing: Now... how to wire a European light switch on an NA system?! 

From what I've seen in UK instructions, they use a brown LIVE wire to connect to the COMMON terminal on the switch, and a blue wire they call "SWITCHED LIVE" to connect to the L1 terminal on the switch (plus sometimes a third wire is connected to L2, for 2-way lighting). 

Would I be correct in presuming I connect the BLACK (LIVE) wire to COMM terminal, and the WHITE (NEUTRAL) to L1 in single-gang one-way switch?


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

We may not have UL but we do have CSA and it won't have that either. It's one of those things where it'll work fine but if your house burns down you have no insurance.

as for the wiring, it would be the same as here. I don't want to say anything more than that because i feel it would be wrong to instruct someone how to install non code compliant equipment in their home.

on a side note you can get push button switches here too eh.


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## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

andrew79 said:


> It's one of those things where it'll work fine but if your house burns down you have no insurance.


I don't have insurance anyways, so it does not make a bit of difference for me. And if these things are rated for 250v 10a, I don't see why they would be a problem running 120v!




andrew79 said:


> on a side note you can get push button switches here too eh.


Really, where from?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

A switch rated for 250 volts 10 amps (2500 watts) will work perfectly well with 120 volts 10 amps but not necessarily with 120 volts 20 amps (2400 watts). Both the voltage rating and the amperage rating have to be adhered to.


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## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> A switch rated for 250 volts 10 amps (2500 watts) will work perfectly well with 120 volts 10 amps but not necessarily with 120 volts 20 amps (2400 watts). Both the voltage rating and the amperage rating have to be adhered to.


Aren't NA wall switches typically 15 amps? ie. Leviton 15A Toggle Switch According to this, the NEC considers 15a 125v to be equivalent with 10a 250v: 

"_NE Code rules require that receptacles installed for the attachment of portable cords shall be rated at not less than 15A, 125V or 10A 250V._" - EC&M

Well, whether NA switches are 15a or 20a, that's still less wattage than what European switches are rated for. So given that we're only talking about a single gang 1-way switch to control a ceiling light fixture (and not, ie. a bank of lights for a baseball stadium!), I really don't see the problem. Well, I'll let you know in 10 years if the switch is still working without a problem. But if you don't hear from me in 10 years, then you'll know there was a problem. :whistling2:


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

As the owner of your home your entitled to do pretty much whatever you want.
You said your in canada so i would assume your reading the CEC and not the NEC. Also you can't use a switch rated for less than 15A for a lighting circuit. Is it safe to do in your application, most likely. Just clarifying so someone doesn't read this and decide to throw some giant chandelier on a switch from ebay.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Why ask if you aren't going to follow the advice given?


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

finally a question pertaining to the cec and i get shot down :laughing:

As for places where you can get a european style switch i would try the levitron and lutron websites. There's even sites that sell the old style antique push button type.

check these out, they aren't what your looking for but they certainly are pretty cool 
http://www.classicaccents.net/Merch..._Code=CAI&Product_Code=HD12&Category_Code=PBS


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## a_lost_shadow (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh, wow, that brings back memories. My grandmother's house had those on most of the wiring. I wonder if the new ones still make the satisfying click.


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## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

andrew79 said:


> Just clarifying so someone doesn't read this and decide to throw some giant chandelier on a switch from ebay.


That's good! Even if I don't much care for codes n' rules n' that ("CEC code"? What's that?! :laughing, I recognize that other people do care a lot about this stuff, and they should know what's what. (As for the light fixture I intend to wire to the European switch, I suppose it could be considered a "chandelier" as it has 8 or 9 bulbs. But they are only 9w CFL's, so its only running about 80watts!).

4 minutes after I posted my original message, I did a Google search on the question of whether you can install a European switch on NA system, and the only thing that came up, was my own message! So yeah, its likely this thread will be the only thing people will find if they are asking the same question as me!



> check these out, they aren't what your looking for but they certainly are pretty cool


Those pushbutton switches _are _pretty cool, and I did consider getting it instead. But the reason I wanted a European one isn't really because it's rocker or push button switch or has "vintage appeal". I wanted to have what they have in Europe, as I simply like the idea of European styling. So I got this....

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/White-Plasti...849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256fde6549




k_buz said:


> Why ask if you aren't going to follow the advice given?


I hope this isn't too confusing, but in this case, I asked the question _before _the advice was given. :thumbup:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Let me step in here for a moment due I do live in both USA and France so I know the layout pretty well.

First of all the European switch are not compareable to the North Americian electrical junction box at all the clear cut is the deminsion is differnt.

If you want simuir to the European look you can use the Decora or simauir products so that will designed to fit in the North American junction box 

Merci,
Marc


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

BuckyGunts said:


> Those pushbutton switches _are _pretty cool, and I did consider getting it instead. But the reason I wanted a European one isn't really because it's rocker or push button switch or has "vintage appeal". I wanted to have what they have in Europe, as I simply like the idea of European styling. So I got this....
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/White-Plasti...849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256fde6549


Your so called European switch is a cheap Chinese knockoff of an Australian Switch. A quick look at the back and I can tell you it would not pass Australian Standards. Switches designed for foreign countires probably won't be UL or CSA listed, but at least get switches that have been tested to local standards. A good reputable brand in Australia is Clipsal.

Yes, it is possible to legally use foreign design switches, but the engineering work required is time consuming and can be costly. I have used Clipsal switches on projects. As a minimum to meet UL and NEC requirements you must mount the switch in their exterior housing even when used indoors. CSA and CEC areprobably very similar.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

He doesn't care, he's made that perfectly clear. 

Doesn't care what your advice is.

Doesn't care about codes.

Doesn't care about his property.

Doesn't care about others' property.

The only thing he cares about is using his pretty little switch.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

k_buz said:


> He doesn't care, he's made that perfectly clear.
> 
> Doesn't care what your advice is.
> 
> ...


You're probably right. 
Australian Standards has been cracking down on these substandard parts. So I guess the manufacturer is going to dump them on unsuspecting Canadians through ebay. 
I stretch the standards sometimes, but at least I have the engineering background and follow good engineering practices and don't do really stupid things.


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## BuckyGunts (Apr 18, 2012)

For the record, I presently only have plans of installing one of these European switches. I'm not putting them all over the place, as I originally intended, because that gets complicated (some of my present light switches are 2 and 3 way installations). The 10a 250v switch will controlling a ceiling fixture that has 8 x 9w CFL bulbs. That's 72w total, or 0.6 amps -- _well_ below the current rating for the switch. That's why I'm not worried. :wink:

*Marc:* As for the fit, yes the junction boxes are different sizes between the NA and Euro standards. I've only seen a photo of the back side of the Euro switches, but the terminal clearly looks like it will fit inside a standard NA junction box, while the exterior plate should fit flush against the wall. So I don't think there will be a problem fitting the switch. The screw holes however will not screw into the junction box because they are more widely spaced. I intend to screw them into the drywall, voila, problem solved (I made sure to get one with 3 terminals, so I can ground it). The rest of my light switches _are_ Decora style -- but that means they are larger switches. So, not the same as the small rocker button used on many wall switches in Europe or Asian countries. 
*
Goosebarry:* The Chinese made switch I ordered off eBay won't pass Canadian, or US standards, let alone Australian. Hell, I can't even be sure it'll pass Chinese standards. :jester:But Australian is not local for me and they don't make this type locally, so "local standard" doesn't mean much. I believe in safety. But I do not and will never believe that just because some manufacturer did not pay to get approval by some national or local regulatory agency, or that it's made in China, that its inherently unsafe. It's merely a single pole light switch, not a circuit breaker panel. It's designed to handle 250v 10a, and I'm only running 120v 0.6a through it, so I'm not asking it do much.

I have to say, there's a lot of violations of code around here (I don't mean this forum, but the coop I live in!). I know no one here will believe it, but I'm actually the most _safety conscious_ person here, who works in various ways on our electrical system (though I am by no means a licensed electrician). I realized that when I was installing a range hood in another apt. Another colleague finished the job, and so to make sure it was done properly, I asked the managing director if the ground wire was connected. He first said the (recently purchased name brand) range hood did not have a grounding terminal. I said that can't be! Then he said the range hood worked anyway, so.... I said "Well, of course it's going to work! That doesn't mean....". Then he said "Yah, the ground wire was connected, don't worry about it". An obvious lie. See what I mean? 

There's probably a lot of fixtures around here installed by amateurs over the years who unlike me, don't worry about little details like grounding them (let alone NEC or CEC codes, whatever that is! ). Since it seems I'm the only one in my building that even begins to give a damn about adhering to safety standards, no, I don't feel too bad if one of my switches doesn't have the underwriter's laboratory stamp of approval. Especially since I would be the only one to take a shock from something I install (not that I think there is a reasonable risk of that, in this case). Nor do I see a risk for fire, but I recognize that a fire can be started for any number of reasons by any of the tenants here, electrical and otherwise. That's why I make sure each flat has a properly working fire extinguisher and I have it checked annually by professionals, as well as working smoke detectors inside and out. :whistling2:


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

BuckyGunts said:


> For the record, I presently only have plans of installing one of these European switches. I'm not putting them all over the place, as I originally intended, because that gets complicated (some of my present light switches are 2 and 3 way installations). The 10a 250v switch will controlling a ceiling fixture that has 8 x 9w CFL bulbs. That's 72w total, or 0.6 amps -- _well_ below the current rating for the switch. That's why I'm not worried. :wink:
> 
> *Marc:* As for the fit, yes the junction boxes are different sizes between the NA and Euro standards. I've only seen a photo of the back side of the Euro switches, but the terminal clearly looks like it will fit inside a standard NA junction box, while the exterior plate should fit flush against the wall. So I don't think there will be a problem fitting the switch. The screw holes however will not screw into the junction box because they are more widely spaced. I intend to screw them into the drywall, voila, problem solved (I made sure to get one with 3 terminals, so I can ground it). The rest of my light switches _are_ Decora style -- but that means they are larger switches. So, not the same as the small rocker button used on many wall switches in Europe or Asian countries.
> *
> ...


Is there a chance that this thread can get removed. The above statement is the reason they've made it impossible for anyone other than a homeowner (not a renter) or a licensed contractor with a master electrician in their employ the only people who can do electrical work in Ontario legally. Who screws a switch into drywall? I'm assuming your the landlord which makes it even worse and even more illegal. You originally said you have no insurance and now your talking about tenants? How did you get away with that one. 
Perhaps the most ridiculous statement of them all is the fact that your electrical safety regiment includes working inspected fire extinguishers. 

The reason devices go through testing is to verify the safety and rating of a switch. Without CSA or UL testing who's to say it can actually handle 10A?
I can stamp a penny with a 100A rating, that doesn't mean you should stick it in your fusebox.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BuckyGunts said:


> For the record, I presently only have plans of installing one of these European switches. I'm not putting them all over the place, as I originally intended, because that gets complicated (some of my present light switches are 2 and 3 way installations). The 10a 250v switch will controlling a ceiling fixture that has 8 x 9w CFL bulbs. That's 72w total, or 0.6 amps -- _well_ below the current rating for the switch. That's why I'm not worried. :wink:
> 
> *Marc:* As for the fit, yes the junction boxes are different sizes between the NA and Euro standards. I've only seen a photo of the back side of the Euro switches, but the terminal clearly looks like it will fit inside a standard NA junction box, while the exterior plate should fit flush against the wall. So I don't think there will be a problem fitting the switch. The screw holes however will not screw into the junction box because they are more widely spaced. I intend to screw them into the drywall, voila, problem solved (I made sure to get one with 3 terminals, so I can ground it). The rest of my light switches _are_ Decora style -- but that means they are larger switches. So, not the same as the small rocker button used on many wall switches in Europe or Asian countries.
> [.
> ...


Well you say you will put the switch cover screw on the drywall that is fou ( Crazy ) for sure.

I will not install like that and you did admit it that you are not a electrician so you can not do anything in other flats at all. ( just get a real licensed electrician to do this ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

We try to prevent instructions being given for unsafe or code violating work. Its seems clear that the advise to do it right, won't be accepted. This thread is closed.


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