# Maximum Gauge Wire for Standard Electrical Outlets



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Just curious.....they have different wire sizes that are often used in standard electrical outlets 12 gauge and 14.....12/2 , 12/3 being the most common.

What is the largest gauge wire you can use for an electrical outlet?

Will 10 gauge fit? It just seems easier to run the biggest wire that you can use to future proof any changes you might want to make later.


----------



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Let us know how that 10 gauge installation works out for you. Should be very easy to do.:vs_worry:


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Guessing this is your first time doing wiring.
14 and 12 are the wire gauge sizes, the number of conductors has nothing to do how there going to fit.
#10 is not going to fit in the hole for starters for good reason for starters.
You would need a 30 amp. breaker for #10, wire, how would that protect anything plugged into the outlet.
Wire would cost far more.
Far harder to strip and bend.
Give us an example of why this would be a good plan using #10 for a 20 amp. circuit.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

DallasCowboys said:


> Will 10 gauge fit? It just seems easier to run the biggest wire that you can use to *future proof* any changes you might want to make later.


There's that term again. 

Is this a home? WHY would you need to "future proof" general use receptacle circuits??? Just run what you need and worry about the future in the future. If you need another circuit later you can run it later.

Bottom line is, by code with "typical" 15 & 20A receptacles you CANNOT have them on anything larger than a 20A breaker. Besides the fact that #10 would be IMPOSSIBLE to work with in most device boxes. 
So unless you have a 5000 sq/ft house with only one panel location which would lead to very long circuit runs, just run #12 and be done with it. Hell, in a dwelling I still do a few receptacle circuits in #14 and most lighting in #14.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

joecaption said:


> #10 is not going to fit in the hole for starters for good reason for starters.
> You would need a 30 amp. breaker for #10, wire, ..........


Actually 15 & 20A breakers will accept #10. It is done on rare occasions for voltage drop reasons.


----------



## Bria Johnn (Feb 18, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Actually 15 & 20A breakers will accept #10. It is done on rare occasions for voltage drop reasons.


In the 70's when I did residential construction, #10 AWG aluminum was utilized extensively for branch circuit wiring. All 20 amp branch circuits had to be # 10 AWG aluminum.

When it came to switching and plugging no one wanted to do the kitchen as it was a PIA.


----------



## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

DallasCowboys said:


> Just curious.....they have different wire sizes that are often used in standard electrical outlets 12 gauge and 14.....12/2 , 12/3 being the most common.
> 
> What is the largest gauge wire you can use for an electrical outlet?
> 
> Will 10 gauge fit? It just seems easier to run the biggest wire that you can use to future proof any changes you might want to make later.


You cannot put receptacles on a 30a circuit. Now now, and not in the future.


----------



## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You cannot put receptacles on a 30a circuit. Now now, and not in the future.


30 amp breakers have not been mentioned by the OP. Just the wire.

Maybe he wants to able to change the box later and put in a dryer outlet in a bedroom or something.
That will be cool. Run the exhaust out the window.
Future proofed......


----------



## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You cannot put receptacles on a 30a circuit. Now now, and not in the future.



What if it is a 30A receptacle?


----------



## Justin_99 (Jan 23, 2017)

The specifications and instructions which are on outlet and switch manufacturer web sites will say what size and type of wire you can use.

Personally I do like to "over-engineer" things, but #10 wire is a bit much if you ask me. #12 is difficult enough to wrestle with!


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Speedy Petey said:


> There's that term again.
> 
> Is this a home? WHY would you need to "future proof" general use receptacle circuits??? Just run what you need and worry about the future in the future. *If you need another circuit later you can run it later.
> 
> ...






Justin_99 said:


> The specifications and instructions which are on outlet and switch manufacturer web sites will say what size and type of wire you can use.
> 
> *Personally I do like to "over-engineer" things, but #10 wire is a bit much if you ask me. #12 is difficult enough to wrestle with!*


*

*
^
Thanks.


I live in the suburbs of DFW. I plan on building a retirement home ( I am 57 now) in the country in a few years. I am weary of concrete and strip malls.

I don't want to build a new home and then 3-5 years down the road add something new that requires a revision that could have been easily handled at the beginning with a little prior planning.

I like the idea of solar panels and a Powerwall from Tesla. I don't know if it requires a wire larger than gauge 12 but it was only a thought. 

But I want to be independent, even if I am tethered to the grid. 

I have CAT5 wire in my house and now CAT7 is popular. 
It doesn't cost anymore to install 7 than 5. Ditto for a larger gauge wire if there is any benefit.

That is why I was asking.

Thanks.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

DallasCowboys said:


> I am trying to think ahead so I don't have to do it later.
> Why do double work?


At the same time, why do more work now when you are likely not to need it later. If you overkill everything you are doing way more work, most of which will wind up being unnecessary. So the logic of not wanting to do it later holds no water.


----------



## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

DallasCowboys said:


> [/B]
> ^
> Thanks.
> 
> ...


Running 30a wire to your 15 or 20 amp receptacles does not future proof them. You still won't be able to increase the amperage of that circuit to accommodate future add-ons. 

Not for nothing, but if you're going to build a retirement home, my concept of that is to do it once and do it right, nobody wants to get into putting additions on when they're 70. Solar panels and a battery wall are all fine and good, but would have nothing to do with the gauge wire your home has on it's receptacles and lights.


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Use conduit. Then you can pull out and change the wires in the future.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

joed said:


> Use conduit. Then you can pull out and change the wires in the future.



*Conduit sounds like a good idea, especially for the CAT wire.
*




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Running 30a wire to your 15 or 20 amp receptacles does not future proof them. You still won't be able to increase the amperage of that circuit to accommodate future add-ons.
> 
> Not for nothing, but if you're going to build a retirement home, my concept of that is to do it once and do it right, nobody wants to get into putting additions on when they're 70. *Solar panels and a battery wall are all fine and good, but would have nothing to do with the gauge wire your home has on it's receptacles and lights.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

joed said:


> Use conduit. Then you can pull out and change the wires in the future.



*Conduit sounds like a good idea, especially for the CAT wire.
*




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Running 30a wire to your 15 or 20 amp receptacles does not future proof them. You still won't be able to increase the amperage of that circuit to accommodate future add-ons.
> 
> Not for nothing, but if you're going to build a retirement home, my concept of that is to do it once and do it right, nobody wants to get into putting additions on when they're 70. *Solar panels and a battery wall are all fine and good, but would have nothing to do with the gauge wire your home has on it's receptacles and lights.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

DallasCowboys said:


> [/B]
> ^
> Thanks.
> 
> ...



then youre better off just running EMT - if you are worried that CAT5 is becoming obsolete, and going to run 7, what if 9 comes out in 5 or 6 years??


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

KPDMinc said:


> then youre better off just running EMT - if you are worried that *CAT5 is becoming obsolete, and going to run 7, what if 9 comes out in 5 or 6 years??[/*QUOTE]
> 
> The IT world is changing incredibly fast.
> 
> ...


----------



## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

joecaption said:


> Guessing this is your first time doing wiring.
> 14 and 12 are the wire gauge sizes, the number of conductors has nothing to do how there going to fit.
> #10 is not going to fit in the hole for starters for good reason for starters.
> You would need a 30 amp. breaker for #10, wire, how would that protect anything plugged into the outlet.
> ...


sorry, wrong thread...


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Get yourself a little 10/2, 12/2, and 14/2 and build a couple duplex outlet boxes. You'll see real quick why you don't want to use larger wire than required. Larger wire means cooler wire under load and less fire danger. Your heart is in the right place but the NEC covers this with the current limits already in place for 12/2 and 14/2. Also, modern NM is safe for a lot more heat than 40-50 year old NM. Follow the code and you'll be safe.

Also, no one has mentioned your mention of 12/3. You only need 12/3 for 220v or for 3-way switches. But normally you'd use 14/3 for a two-way light switch.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

dalepres said:


> Get yourself a little 10/2, 12/2, and 14/2 and build a couple duplex outlet boxes. You'll see real quick why you don't want to use larger wire than required. Larger wire means cooler wire under load and less fire danger. Your heart is in the right place but the NEC covers this with the current limits already in place for 12/2 and 14/2. *Also, modern NM is safe for a lot more heat than 40-50 year old NM. Follow th*e code and you'll be safe.
> 
> Also, no one has mentioned your mention of 12/3.* You only need 12/3 for 220v or for 3-way switches. But normally you'd use 14/3 for a two-way light switch.*




Thanks!


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Circuit breaker is meant to protect the wire; there is nothing that states you can't use bigger wire than circuit breaker allows. As far as specs go: 14AWG for 15A CB, 12AWG for 20A CB, 10AWG for 30A CB. Now, normal power outlets are intended for 15A or 20A power feed. There are special outlets for 30A CB.

Living in a townhome with 150A service and 15A wiring to each room I wish i had MOAR POWA in each room. In fact, if I ever build my own house, i'll put 8AWG wire with 50A service to each room, add 20A breakers for each outlet to have per code outlets but 50A of juice available in each room...


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

PCM81 said:


> Circuit breaker is meant to protect the wire; there is nothing that states you can't use bigger wire than circuit breaker allows. As far as specs go: 14AWG for 15A CB, 12AWG for 20A CB, 10AWG for 30A CB. Now, normal power outlets are intended for 15A or 20A power feed. There are special outlets for 30A CB.
> 
> Living in a townhome with 150A service and 15A wiring to each room I wish i had MOAR POWA in each room. In fact, if I ever build my own house, i'll put 8AWG wire with 50A service to each room, add 20A breakers for each outlet to have per code outlets but 50A of juice available in each room...


No reason you can't do that as long as you are OK with having a panel exposed in each room and maintain minimum clearance both width and in front of the panels. Also, you can't simply add up 50 amps of service to each room. You have to consider the total capacity of the feeding panel and your service. Of course you'd never, realistically speaking, draw anywhere that current in any room, not even in the kitchen and laundry so what you're saying is pretty pointless.

There are smart things that can be done to adjust to our modern electric world. I just replaced my main panel with a generator ready panel and, while I was at it, I rewired most of the house. In key areas, I just made sure that outlets were on two different breakers to not exceed maximum outlets per circuit. I have outlets on one circuit at each nightstand and a separate circuit in the middle under the headboard for plugging in an electric blanket. All of the accessible outlets are dual-duplex (4 outlets) because we always use more plugs these days for wall warts and I wanted hard-wired outlets as much as possible rather than outlet strips all over the house. Now I have plenty of outlets for TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, phone chargers, lamps, laptops, and alarm clocks as well as a few left over for whatever else may come up in the future. All of those devices draw such ridiculously low power that total use on any of those circuits probably never exceeds 1 amp. Those are examples of what, in my opinion, are smart changes in how we view electricity in the home. Just adding panels in every room doesn't offer the same kind of benefit.

I did the same thing at the desk area. Outlets under the desk and just at desktop height, again on multiple circuits and, again, plenty of them. Same thing at my network and telecomm panel area except that everything there is on a single circuit with battery and inverter backup. Still, lots of outlets, but not lots of amps; it's just not required.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

dalepres said:


> Also, no one has mentioned your mention of 12/3. You only need 12/3 for 220v or for 3-way switches.


 You do not need 12/3 for "220v". 12/2 is fine and typical for a straight 240V circuit, such as a large power tool, well, or A/C unit. You need XX/3 wire for a 120/240V circuit such as an electric dryer.




dalepres said:


> But normally you'd use 14/3 for a two-way light switch.


Normally you'd use whatever size wire the circuit is. Even for a *3-way* switch.




dalepres said:


> I just made sure that outlets were on two different breakers to not exceed maximum outlets per circuit.


Under the NEC in the US there is no limit to number of receptacle on a circuit.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

PCM81 said:


> Living in a townhome with 150A service and 15A wiring to each room I wish i had MOAR POWA in each room. In fact, if I ever build my own house, i'll put 8AWG wire with 50A service to each room, add 20A breakers for each outlet to have per code outlets but 50A of juice available in each room...


Running a grow operation or a server farm ? 

Many homes don't use 50 amps and you want that much available for bedrooms? Fine if you have money to waste.


----------



## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

PCM81 said:


> In fact, if I ever build my own house, i'll put 8AWG wire with 50A service to each room, add 20A breakers for each outlet to have per code outlets but 50A of juice available in each room...


That is ridiculous. Going forward newer devices use less power.


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> You do not need 12/3 for "220v". 12/2 is fine and typical for a straight 240V circuit, such as a large power tool, well, or A/C unit. You need XX/3 wire for a 120/240V circuit such as an electric dryer.
> 
> 
> Normally you'd use whatever size wire the circuit is. Even for a *3-way* switch.
> ...


Thanks for the clarifications.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Jim Port said:


> Running a grow operation or a server farm ?
> 
> Many homes don't use 50 amps and you want that much available for bedrooms? Fine if you have money to waste.


My computer alone pulls 1.2KW of power. add to that monitor, laser printer, sound system... Now, what happens if i try to use hoover steam vac in that same room?

Also, after pulling close to 15A through AFCI breaker (my office is in a bedroom, hence the AFCI mandated by code) now my breaker pops even if i pull like 3A through it... Wouldn't happen if it was a 50A breaker. The fact that each room can provide 50A does not mean it will all the time.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

rjniles said:


> That is ridiculous. Going forward newer devices use less power.


Video cards use max power they are allowed by code and thermals (450W by code) because GPU has very parallel architecture, so its easy to just add more cores to it to make the card have more computing power. Thermals is what keeps them below 400W. This will never go down, processing OOOHHHHMMFFF will increase, power won't decrease for top of the line cards.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

dalepres said:


> No reason you can't do that as long as you are OK with having a panel exposed in each room and maintain minimum clearance both width and in front of the panels. Also, you can't simply add up 50 amps of service to each room. You have to consider the total capacity of the feeding panel and your service. Of course you'd never, realistically speaking, draw anywhere that current in any room, not even in the kitchen and laundry so what you're saying is pretty pointless.
> 
> There are smart things that can be done to adjust to our modern electric world. I just replaced my main panel with a generator ready panel and, while I was at it, I rewired most of the house. In key areas, I just made sure that outlets were on two different breakers to not exceed maximum outlets per circuit. I have outlets on one circuit at each nightstand and a separate circuit in the middle under the headboard for plugging in an electric blanket. All of the accessible outlets are dual-duplex (4 outlets) because we always use more plugs these days for wall warts and I wanted hard-wired outlets as much as possible rather than outlet strips all over the house. Now I have plenty of outlets for TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, phone chargers, lamps, laptops, and alarm clocks as well as a few left over for whatever else may come up in the future. All of those devices draw such ridiculously low power that total use on any of those circuits probably never exceeds 1 amp. Those are examples of what, in my opinion, are smart changes in how we view electricity in the home. Just adding panels in every room doesn't offer the same kind of benefit.
> 
> I did the same thing at the desk area. Outlets under the desk and just at desktop height, again on multiple circuits and, again, plenty of them. Same thing at my network and telecomm panel area except that everything there is on a single circuit with battery and inverter backup. Still, lots of outlets, but not lots of amps; it's just not required.


 Distributing sockets across multiple breakers would work as long as you remember which breaker pulls which socket 5 years later when you decide to work on it. I just like to provision dedicated power to each part of a circuit, but then i work as EE in aviation industry, so for home use the power provisioning requirements are much more laxed than in aviation.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

PCM81 said:


> My computer alone pulls 1.2KW of power. add to that monitor, laser printer, sound system... Now, what happens if i try to use hoover steam vac in that same room?
> 
> Also, after pulling close to 15A through AFCI breaker (my office is in a bedroom, hence the AFCI mandated by code) now my breaker pops even if i pull like 3A through it... Wouldn't happen if it was a 50A breaker. The fact that each room can provide 50A does not mean it will all the time.


You have an issue in the circuit if it is tripping at 3 amps, or less than its rating.


----------



## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

PCM81 said:


> Circuit breaker is meant to protect the wire; there is nothing that states you can't use bigger wire than circuit breaker allows. As far as specs go: 14AWG for 15A CB, 12AWG for 20A CB, 10AWG for 30A CB. Now, normal power outlets are intended for 15A or 20A power feed. There are special outlets for 30A CB.
> 
> Living in a townhome with 150A service and 15A wiring to each room I wish i had MOAR POWA in each room. In fact, if I ever build my own house, i'll put 8AWG wire with 50A service to each room, add 20A breakers for each outlet to have per code outlets but 50A of juice available in each room...


do you know what that would cost? And for what? I guess, being an electrical estimator, I look at these types of things...


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

KPDMinc said:


> do you know what that would cost? And for what? I guess, being an electrical estimator, I look at these types of things...


It would cost ... allot.

Working as a EE for aviation i learned 2 valuable lessons:
1. You get what you pay for
2. Do it right the first time.

Read my post above about pulling close to 15A through AFCI breaker for a year and now it pops with anything over 3A... My time to deal with consequences like that also has a cost to it...


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Jim Port said:


> You have an issue in the circuit if it is tripping at 3 amps, or less than its rating.


It's a "well used" AFCI breaker that needs to be replaced... i am just too lazy to do it.


----------



## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Future proof... Here's an idea. Run an additional 14/3 to every switch or outlet location, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and do not connect it on either end. If that doesn't satisfy you, pick a futuristic spot in each room and run an extra 12/3, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and don't connect it on either end. Then 5 years into the future when everything is cordless you'll be happy the wires are there, just in case


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sheiweeesh said:


> Future proof... Here's an idea. Run an additional 14/3 to every switch or outlet location, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and do not connect it on either end. If that doesn't satisfy you, pick a futuristic spot in each room and run an extra 12/3, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and don't connect it on either end. Then 5 years into the future when everything is cordless you'll be happy the wires are there, just in case


1. Power transmission is never cordless. If you are thinking of inductive chargers, look at the wire connected to them..
2. if you are referring to wi-fi as cordless; do some research on wifi security. WPS pin HMM DISABLE IT NOW!!! Packet flooding to restart the access point and capture a handshake with authorized node... cant stop that if the attacker has powerful enough transmitter to cause your access point to reset connections....


----------



## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

Just build according to current standards. The house is going to outlive you anyway.

Our house was built in 1983 and purchased by us in 1987. Never had any problems out of the electrical.

A couple of years ago, we remodeled our kitchen. We needed more outlets and to relocate the outlet for the built in microwave because we moved it to a different location. I hired an electrician to do the work. An hour or two and he was done. And we are happy. The outlets in the kitchen weren't enough for all the appliances in use during holiday meals. Now with three more on a separate 20 amp circuit, all is good.

My only suggestion is to make sure you have enough outlets to serve a party. :biggrin2:


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

MT Stringer said:


> Just build according to current standards. The house is going to outlive you anyway.
> 
> Our house was built in 1983 and purchased by us in 1987. Never had any problems out of the electrical.
> 
> ...


In all honesty, this is one of the more sensible answers i have seen. The fact that I want 50A in each room does not mean it makes sense for other 99.99% of people.

Code exists for a reason: to maintain safe wiring practices. You can wire up many different layouts all within code, which will have different price tag and serve different purpose. Put some thought into what you will need in the future, bounce that concept off the code requirements and if the price tag is within you budget, do it.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

PCM81 said:


> It's a "well used" AFCI breaker that needs to be replaced... i am just too lazy to do it.


Why do you believe it is well used and needs replacement ? 

It is more likely that you have a problem in the circuit, or in one of the devices plugged into it.


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

PCM81 said:


> My computer alone pulls 1.2KW of power. add to that monitor, laser printer, sound system... Now, what happens if i try to use hoover steam vac in that same room?
> 
> Also, after pulling close to 15A through AFCI breaker (my office is in a bedroom, hence the AFCI mandated by code) now my breaker pops even if i pull like 3A through it... Wouldn't happen if it was a 50A breaker. The fact that each room can provide 50A does not mean it will all the time.


Your PC doesn't draw 1.2KW just because you put a 1.2KW power supply in it. http://www.buildcomputers.net/power-consumption-of-pc-components.html

*EDIT:*
The very, very, very top end video cards draw half of what you said your cards draw.
http://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=08G-P4-6286-KR
*/EDIT*

Keep in mind that even the numbers in the web page are maximums for when you're using 100% of capacity of a component - which you would almost never do.

You can't run your outlets on a 50-amp breaker. If you tried, and you drew anywhere near that, you'd burn the wiring unless you're running 6 gauge wire to your outlets - and there's no outlet made that you can connect 6 gauge wire.

I think you have made your frustration with not having enough capacity quite clear and it's understandable. Now, slow down and let some of the experts help you understand how to avoid that frustration in less nonsensical ways.


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

PCM81 said:


> It would cost ... allot.
> 
> Working as a EE for aviation i learned 2 valuable lessons:
> 1. You get what you pay for
> ...


And, of course, every time a breaker trips it's the fault of the breaker. Perhaps you could get a piece of bar stock and put in its place. Seems ok if a person wants to do that to themselves and their home. Insurance isn't going to pay for the fire so as long as you don't have a mortgage or can afford to pay it off. But you really should consider moving your family out of the house to somewhere safe.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

dalepres said:


> 1.Your PC doesn't draw 1.2KW just because you put a 1.2KW power supply in it. http://www.buildcomputers.net/power-consumption-of-pc-components.html
> 
> *EDIT:*
> The very, very, very top end video cards draw half of what you said your cards draw.
> ...


Ohh, common; i am not that stupid... the 1.2KW figure came from summing up the output power reported by 2 UPS units which feed 2 PSUs in my rig. The main 1KW psu and auxiliary 12 volt PSU.
2. That is why I said I’d need to add 20A breakers for each outlet....


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

dalepres said:


> *EDIT:*
> The very, very, very top end video cards draw half of what you said your cards draw.
> http://www.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=08G-P4-6286-KR
> */EDIT*


Look up the power draw on an overclocked radeon 6990 (you will find it to be 375W +) and then multiply it by 2 for crossfire. Oh and doing scientific computing does not run the cards at less than 100% load, like gaming would, since GPUs are independent from each other in openCL.
Look up the power draw for I7 980X CPU (you'll find it to b e 180W)
Look up the power for 5x 7200 RPM drives (30 watts each)
Add to that about 100 watts for watercolling pump and fans plus the sound card.

All that is the output requirement of the PSUs, multiply that by 1.2 for PSU inefficiency and you get pretty close to what my UPS units are reporting. You my dear sir have just been spanked by myrig's powa :vs_cool:

EDIT:
Forgot to mention, eveything is water cooled, so cards and CPU do not throttle back due to heat. CPU is overclocked to 4GHz.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Oso954 said:


> Why do you believe it is well used and needs replacement ?
> 
> It is more likely that you have a problem in the circuit, or in one of the devices plugged into it.


Because i have been drawing about 14A through it for over 2 years before issues showed up.

The circuit is 1 closet light and 1 room light (both installed by the builder of the house); everything else is now running via extension cords from outlets going to 3 separate breakers. (yes i am a mad man)


----------



## Adam_Reith (Jan 25, 2017)

As an earlier poster said, constructing with flexible metal conduit into which you can pull nearly any wires you want, is the most flexible.
My early 80s So Cal home has it, although I think it was rare even then. Almost unheard of now, it's all romex for speed & cost reasons.

If I was building a new home, I'd spec flex conduit for both electrical and the data/network.
It's not a matter of spec'ing a hypothetical "cat9" copper, what if you wanted fiber optic or coax or some other medium?


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Sheiweeesh said:


> Future proof... Here's an idea. Run an additional 14/3 to every switch or outlet location, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and do not connect it on either end. If that doesn't satisfy you, pick a futuristic spot in each room and run an extra 12/3, cap it, mark it, date it, put your name on it and don't connect it on either end. *Then 5 years into the future when everything is cordless you'll be happy the wires are there, just in case *




In 5 years I am hoping that someone figures out the wireless/free energy that Tesla invented 100 years ago.

Edgar Cayce said that we would have something in our garages the size of a water heater that would provide us free energy from space. 

Hopefully, it won't be too long....yes I do believe it will happen.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DallasCowboys said:


> KPDMinc said:
> 
> 
> > then youre better off just running EMT - if you are worried that *CAT5 is becoming obsolete, and going to run 7, what if 9 comes out in 5 or 6 years??[/*QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## jreagan (Feb 20, 2015)

I've been running 1Gbps on Cat5e cables for a while now. (less than 20ft however) My longer runs down to my switch in the basement are 100Mbps.

In my house, I have two Cat5e's and two RG-6s run from each room down to a "hub" in the basement. (Actually, each room as two of them so 4 Cat5e/4 RG-6s to each room).

It was all done by the prior owner.


----------



## Justin_99 (Jan 23, 2017)

Note cat 5 and cat 5e are different!

And distance matters. 20 feet length vs 100 feet length and lower specification [cat 5] may not work at all! (For streaming TV, I prefer cat 7 for a 100 ft. length. Cat 5 does not work at all.)


----------



## joe99 (Sep 6, 2012)

DallasCowboys said:


> [/B]
> I live in the suburbs of DFW. I plan on building a retirement home ( I am 57 now) in the country in a few years. I am weary of concrete and strip malls.


With the rapid expansion of the DFW area, what is the "country" now could easily be a concrete and strip mall suburb in 10-15 years. Make sure your location is future-proofed.


----------



## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

DallasCowboys said:


> [/B]
> 
> In 5 years I am hoping that someone figures out the wireless/free energy that Tesla invented 100 years ago.


Never going to happen. The energy still has to be generated and who's to pay for it? We even secure our wi-fi.



> Edgar Cayce said that we would have something in our garages the size of a water heater that would provide us free energy from space.
> 
> Hopefully, it won't be too long....yes I do believe it will happen.


People have been opining that since Tesla.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> Edgar Cayce said that we would have something in our garages the size of a water heater that would provide us free energy from space.


He was right , if you put your solar system inverter in the garage and ignore all the panels on the roof.

He just didn't tell you how much all that equipment would cost to receive the "free energy".


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

When you build the walls will you be using 2x6?


----------



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

DallasCowboys said:


> [/B]
> 
> In 5 years I am hoping that someone figures out the wireless/free energy that Tesla invented 100 years ago.
> 
> ...


Never happen and you know why.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

joed said:


> When you build the walls will you be using 2x6?


It depends on whether I intend to add soundproofing or thermal insulation to those particular walls.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

joe99 said:


> With the rapid expansion of the DFW area, what is the "country" now could easily be a concrete and strip mall suburb in 10-15 years. Make sure your location is future-proofed.


It'll be difficult unless I move further out to Eagle's Lake or Hillsboro.

A tree is an excuse to pave something over it.


You can't drive ANYWHERE without encountering traffic. It's not a matter of whether you will encounter an accident, it's how many.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Never going to happen. The energy still has to be generated and who's to pay for it? We even secure our wi-fi.
> 
> People have been opining that since Tesla.




I know....but I think someone has figured it out already.....but there would be massive economic and political implications if there was no need for oil.

Are you familiar with Bretton Woods ? It was an international agreement that made the U.S. dollar the international currency and all oil was to be priced in dollars. 

If Germany, China or Japan want to buy oil on the open market , it has to be done with dollars, not yen or yuan. Ditto for every other nation in the world.


If there was no need for oil...the trillions of dollars floating around the world would be returned to the U.S. and we would have severe economic problems.

Someone has figured it out.......it'll happen one day.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

joed said:


> When you build the walls will you be using 2x6?


Yes, 2 X 6 's. 

I have even considered using stainless steel.....they don't warp, rot or burn. 

When I get to the final stage, I'll price out wood and stainless steel.


----------



## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

DallasCowboys said:


> Yes, 2 X 6 's.
> 
> I have even considered using stainless steel.....they don't warp, rot or burn.
> 
> When I get to the final stage, I'll price out wood and stainless steel.


Metal stud, you'll curse yourself every time you want to hang something on a wall.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> Metal stud, you'll curse yourself every time you want to hang something on a wall.


+10,000
My parent's house has 1 wall like that. I was the one hanging a mirror on it.... need i say more...


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

PCM81 said:


> +10,000
> My parent's house has 1 wall like that. I was the one hanging a mirror on it.... need i say more...


Why only one wall?

What would you use to hang pics ?

A special nail or a sheet metal screw?

I never thought about pictures...

I wonder how effective those foam insulated concrete homes are?

They look good on paper........


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

DallasCowboys said:


> Why only one wall?
> 
> What would you use to hang pics ?
> 
> ...


Only 1 wall, because it's not a real wall, goes up about 9 feet and separates kitchen from the living room (you can walk around it).

You hang pictures using drywall anchors. Different types exist varying in size and force that they can sustain. We even hung a large mirror.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

PCM81 said:


> Only 1 wall, because it's not a real wall, goes up about 9 feet and separates kitchen from the living room (you can walk around it).
> 
> You hang pictures using *drywall anchors. *Different types exist varying in size and force that they can sustain. We even hung a large mirror.


Yeah, I am familiar with them.

I was just wondering if there were any special screws that were used to 'drill' into metal studs if you wanted to hang a pic etc...

I think Tapcon might be overkill and I don't know if a sheetrock screw would get the job done. Assuming that you did not go through the sheetrock by itself.



That leads to another question as long as I have you attention and we are talking about metal studs.

What is the strength of a metal stud of comparable size versus the average 2X4 ?

I have searched but I have never found anything that suggested the downward crush strength of a metal stud is X LBS and a wooden stud is X Lbs. 

And the horizontal load is X vs X.

I am assuming that the metal stud can handle greater stresses than wood, but I have never seen it in writing. 

I emailed a manufacturer and a 'metal stud association' ( I don't recall their name) and the only thing I received was a non-commital email that said there were so many variables that it was hard to measure them side by side. I guess it was a clerk that did not know himself, but he had to say something......lol

One more question......you can buy an average looking 2X4 at Home Depot or Lowe's for a few bucks. But they also have their 'premium brand' that costs more. They look better with fewer knots and warps, but are they worth the expense if you build a home with them ? Aside from the fact that they appear to be straighter and blemish free, or they stronger ? Do they warp less ?

Do people build entire homes with the premium wood or just special applications ?


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

DallasCowboys said:


> Yeah, I am familiar with them.
> 
> I was just wondering if there were any special screws that were used to 'drill' into metal studs if you wanted to hang a pic etc...
> 
> ...



Premium wood is usually hardwood; which IS stronger than pine, but is also allot costlier. Do people build houses out of oak? Yes. Do houses built out of pine outlast their original owners? Also, yes. So decide for yourself. If i had to build the house i'd use normal wood (pine or similar). not hardwood. If you want some extra protection, get treated wood, to prevent mold/rot/moisture etc.

Metal studs can often be very thin and flimsy; hence hanging stuff on them is worse than in a nice solid wooden stud. A 2x4 metal member/stud will be hollow, so the strength will depend on wall thickness. Most likely as a tube it is rigid enough to support the drywall, but as a sheet metal it can't support much.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I have only seen metal studs used in non structural walls. They only carry the wall finish.


----------



## PCM81 (Feb 5, 2017)

Jim Port said:


> I have only seen metal studs used in non structural walls. They only carry the wall finish.


This agrees with my experience as well.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Load bearing steel studs exist, they are used more often in commercial than in residential.

The lightweight C studs used in partition walls are non load bearing.


----------



## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

DallasCowboys said:


> One more question......you can buy an average looking 2X4 at Home Depot or Lowe's for a few bucks. But they also have their 'premium brand' that costs more. They look better with fewer knots and warps, but are they worth the expense if you build a home with them ? Aside from the fact that they appear to be straighter and blemish free, or they stronger ? Do they warp less ?
> 
> Do people build entire homes with the premium wood or just special applications ?


As far as I know, dimensional softwood is graded (top to bottom) '#1/#2', 'stud', '#3' and 'Economy'. Grading is based on defects and strength characteristics. I believe there is also a Select aka Appearance at the top end as well as Strapping at the bottom. I have not heard of Premium. I also believe grading standards apply to both the US and Canada but the terms may differ.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

PCM81 said:


> Premium wood is usually hardwood; which IS stronger than pine, but is also allot costlier. Do people build houses out of oak? Yes. *Do houses built out of pine outlast their original owners? Also, yes. So decide for yourself.* If i had to build the house *i'd use normal wood (pine or similar). not hardwood.* If you want some extra protection, *get treated wood, to prevent mold/rot/moisture etc.*
> 
> Metal studs can often be very thin and flimsy; hence hanging stuff on them is worse than in a nice solid wooden stud. A 2x4 metal member/stud will be hollow, so the strength will depend on wall thickness. Most likely as a tube it is rigid enough to support the drywall, but *as a sheet metal it can't support much.*


*
*

Pine wood is just fine, like you said. But before WW2 homes were almost exclusively made of oak. They thought pine was 'too soft' ....it's a softwood!...and was not strong enough for homes. They thought it was inferior to oak.

I thought it was not a good idea to use treated wood in homes because the chemicals would slowly evaporate into the home and cause health problems.

And if you have a fire, the chemicals would be in the smoke and add to an already existing problem.


Dunno.....

It seems like steel would support more because.....it's steel...maybe they have different gauges.

I would still like to find a chart comparing the two.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Jim Port said:


> I have only seen metal studs used in non structural walls. They only carry the wall finish.


What about the homes that are all stainless steel.......are they designed differently or is it a higher gauge steel?

Maybe it's building codes and some areas don't allow steel homes ?


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

lenaitch said:


> As far as I know, dimensional softwood is graded (top to bottom) '#1/#2', 'stud', '#3' and 'Economy'. Grading is based on defects and strength characteristics. I believe there is also a Select aka Appearance at the top end as well as Strapping at the bottom. I have not heard of Premium. I also believe grading standards apply to both the US and Canada but the terms may differ.


I guess Premium was a poor choice of words. I intended it as a general description, not a Grading characteristic.

I've see the different grades. There isn't that much difference in price among the grades .....but I guess it adds up if you are going use 1,000 2X6's. etc...

I wish Canada and the U.S. would have the same standards...as well as Europe. It seems like if an area can determine there is a good reason for a higher standard it would apply to other areas too.

But, I would be happy if the U.S. just used the metric system. We are the only major nation in the world that does not use it. And we lose a fair amount of export business because of the different standards.

Anyhow, when said Premium, I was thinking of this from Lowe's.......

Top Choice........https://www.lowes.com/pl/Dimensional-lumber-Lumber-composites-Building-supplies/4294402500


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

DallasCowboys said:


> What about the homes that are all stainless steel.......are they designed differently or is it a higher gauge steel?
> 
> Maybe it's building codes and some areas don't allow steel homes ?


The steel framed homes I have seen use structural tubes and channels , not stainless steel.


----------



## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

Jim Port said:


> The steel framed homes I have seen use structural tubes and channels , not stainless steel.


can you imagine punching through stainless steel to run wiring?


----------



## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

DallasCowboys said:


> I guess Premium was a poor choice of words. I intended it as a general description, not a Grading characteristic.
> 
> I've see the different grades. There isn't that much difference in price among the grades .....but I guess it adds up if you are going use 1,000 2X6's. etc...
> 
> ...


As far as I am aware, Canada and the US do use the same grading standards which are applied by a number of approved grading authorities. In my experience, most lumber offered by reputable yards or stores is either 1 or 2 unless it is advertised as otherwise. I'm guessing that Lowe's is using the word "common" to describe the nominal dimension of 2"x4" in case customers don't know what the word 'nominal' meant.


----------



## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

The top choice is also smooth with rounded corners.
It costs money to do, so the price is higher.

Why they do that is a mystery to me to this day.
For guys making picnic tables?

Buy #1 or #2 studs from a real lumber store. They will usually deliver for free if your order is a good size.

Mine were rough as heck but the price was right and they were graded studs. There will be some warped ones in there but on a big project there is always somewhere to use them in shorter bits.


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> The top choice is also smooth with rounded corners.
> It costs money to do, so the price is higher.
> Why they do that is a mystery to me to this day.
> For guys making picnic tables?
> ...


*fire stops between joists?*

*Yeah, there is nothing more aggravating than having to cut a board because you need 6 or 10 inches here or there and don't have any cut wood laying around.
*


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

DallasCowboys said:


> Just curious.....they have different wire sizes that are often used in standard electrical outlets 12 gauge and 14.....12/2 , 12/3 being the most common.
> 
> What is the largest gauge wire you can use for an electrical outlet?
> 
> Will 10 gauge fit? It just seems easier to run the biggest wire that you can use to future proof any changes you might want to make later.


I haven't gone through all the posts so I don't know if anyone has discussed the dangers involved with what you plan, but you will end up with is a fire hazard on your hands.

10 gauge would not fit outlets and switches properly so the end result would be bad connection points... which causes heat, which causes fire.

The outlets and switches are also not built sturdy enough to support the forces involved in pushing them around in order to bend 10 gauge wire enough to get them into the various boxes.

Nothing wrong with "future proofing" but if not done smartly, it can turn around and bite you in the butt.


----------



## PPBART (Nov 11, 2011)

joecaption said:


> ...#10 is not going to fit in the hole for starters...


My house was built in 1986-7 and wired with #12. I've had to replace a few receptacles and it's hard to find one with holes that take #12.


----------



## oldelectricguy (Jul 13, 2016)

PPBART said:


> My house was built in 1986-7 and wired with #12. I've had to replace a few receptacles and it's hard to find one with holes that take #12.


Hopefully, you are not using the backstab holes on the back side of the receptacle for your connections. That is a BIG no-no! If you have done so, turn off the power, remove those wires, and reconnect them to the screw terminals on the side of the receptacle. Make sure you hook the wires properly around the screws, one wire per screw, so that the wire is drawn into the screw when tightening. Never use the backstab connections.


----------



## MikeFL (Nov 14, 2016)

DallasCowboys said:


> Just curious.....they have different wire sizes that are often used in standard electrical outlets 12 gauge and 14.....12/2 , 12/3 being the most common.
> 
> What is the largest gauge wire you can use for an electrical outlet?
> 
> Will 10 gauge fit? It just seems easier to run the biggest wire that you can use to future proof any changes you might want to make later.


I'm jumping in here because I see a simple question asked and 78 posts already. 

Receptacles come in many voltages and amperages. You need to read the specs on the receptacle you intend to wire to determine what wire size you need. 

For many standard residential grade 120V duplex receptacles used in the USA they are rated 15A which requires a minimum 14AWG wire size. The can often accept up to a 12AWG wire size if you wire to screw terminals but are limited to 14AWG wire size if you "back stab" wire them.

You need to read the spec sheet that comes with the receptacle.


----------



## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

The original was somewhat along the lines of "I am retiring my whatever, can I just plan for the future and use #10 wire....and the OP wasn't buying the "why would you ever do that" or the "WAY too hard to work with" answers and the thread went south from there to steel studs and "white wood" for framing! And btw, the old model back stab has been a huge no no for years now. And basically ANY duplex receptacle you buy in the US will accept # 12 wire either wrapped around the screws on the sides of fed up through the guide holes in the back and ending up under the clamps on the side. Ron


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

MikeFL said:


> I'm jumping in here because I see a simple question asked and 78 posts already.
> 
> Receptacles come in many voltages and amperages. You need to read the specs on the receptacle you intend to wire to determine what wire size you need.
> 
> ...


*

*

Thanks....that was concise and to the point..:smile:


----------



## Fishbulb28 (Jul 8, 2016)

DallasCowboys said:


> Thanks....that was concise and to the point..:smile:


Let me convolute that by adding to it. As a general rule, residential grade (standard or 'preferred' grade) receptacles will accept 14 to 12 gauge. Commercial grade or better will accept 14 to 10 gauge. You can find exceptions to that rule but you will have to look hard.


----------

