# DIY Heat Pump/Air Handler replacement



## hennyh

I plan to replace my 25+ year old air handler (GE) and 4T heat pump (Carrier). I plan to order online and do 90% of the installation myself and hire a HVAC tech for final refrigerant charge and system checkout.

Since this is a DIY friendly forum I'm just seeking opinions. I'm not changing any ductwork or making capacity changes. Manual load J indicates that 4T is still accurate. I'm replacing existing components vs. new installations.

There's a multitude of online sites offering components from Goodman and Ruud. I've decided on a 4T Ruud air handler and 4T condenser. I plan to replace my existing lineset.

I've read all the Ruud installation manuals and it all looks straightforward. Power and circuit breakers are all there and correct and my control system is compatable.

I realize warranty becomes pretty "iffy" dealing online but all the components will cost me about $2500 vs. contracters that are quoting me about $10K. That savings more then makes up for warranty concerns. 

The form factor of the new air handler is almost identical to my existing system. Only minor modifications need to be made to my return plenum.

I'm just curious about any pitfalls in DIY HVAC. My biggest concern would be defective new components.

I'm open for all advice suggestions for those that have chosen this route.


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi hennyh

I am a liscenced service technician, now that I have said that. There is the question of what are you doing with the refrigerant in the existing system. This is the one thing I am trying to get rectified, the bottom dollar low life company's that offer there equipment no questions asked to the general public. Yet they are not required to ask if you have your CFC cirtification. That in itself is a violation of the law, which when I took my test, said that it was illegal for any company to sell any piece of equipment to the public that was not self contained and had a refrigerant amount greater than 5 lbs. I am not trying to detour you in any way, but I have a real problem with knowing that if I release refrigerant other than accidentaly. I could end up in prison with a girlfriend named Bubba. As far as setting the equipment by all means if thats what you want to do. As far as the warranty, that goes off the serial # and the date of sale. If they are stupid enough to sell to the general public, they get what they deserve.

Good Luck
Rusty


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## hennyh

#CARRIERMAN said:


> Hi hennyh
> 
> I am a liscenced service technician, now that I have said that. There is the question of what are you doing with the refrigerant in the existing system. This is the one thing I am trying to get rectified, the bottom dollar low life company's that offer there equipment no questions asked to the general public. Yet they are not required to ask if you have your CFC cirtification. That in itself is a violation of the law, which when I took my test, said that it was illegal for any company to sell any piece of equipment to the public that was not self contained and had a refrigerant amount greater than 5 lbs. I am not trying to detour you in any way, but I have a real problem with knowing that if I release refrigerant other than accidentaly. I could end up in prison with a girlfriend named Bubba. As far as setting the equipment by all means if thats what you want to do. As far as the warranty, that goes off the serial # and the date of sale. If they are stupid enough to sell to the general public, they get what they deserve.
> 
> Good Luck
> Rusty


My plan is to hire someone to do the decommisioning of my old system. (recovery of refrigerant)

I've read EPA 608 and I don't see anything that restricts sale of the actual equipment. It appears that most of it limits what refrigerants you can buy and in what size. It also limits the capacity of the system you can evacuate from.


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi hennyh

Sorry to come across a bad person, but this is very irritating for our whole industry. Thank you for having the refrigerant reclaimed. Like I said, I am not trying to detour you in any way. Just like to see things done properly.

Good Luck
Rusty


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## vey

The licensed industry is why there is more interest in DIY.

I am looking a an old invoice from 4 years ago. My elderly father-in-law had his outside condensor unit replaced then with almost the same model as the original, so things matched up fine with his air handler. No need to replace the lines, run new electrical wires, etc. Just pull one out and put one in.

It was a Rheem 3 ton, 10 seer, no heat pump -- this a pretty basic and inexpensive model.

The invoice is for over $4,000. We know from the low life companies that the unit cost about $1,000, so how can any industry justify charhing $3,000 for delivery and let's be generous and say three hours of labor?


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi vey

You brought up a valid point about DIY, but alot of what you said is brought on by the publics unwillingness to educate themselfs. I am sorry that your father in law paid that much for a low end piece of equipment. But on the other side of the coin, how much did it cost to build the car your driving, produce the gas it uses, to be repaired at the shop. I bet no one ever thinks about that. But to me climate control and safety for my household is worth a ton more. The one example I find most irritating is no one has a problem paying someone to come in with a vacuum cleaner and charge them $80.00 plus dollars and hour to fix something that just craps paper. But when it comes to me making what I make I am a thief. I do not understand the general public and their reason behind this, but I'm not here to argue and I know what I'm worth.

Rusty


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## VAheatcool

good luck.
As I've been told "it ain't rocket surgery", I have no doubt that anyone can learn to do it. However, after 15 years in the field myself, I am still humbled by how much I don't know.
Good technicians work for good companies that pay....GOOD! So, be careful when you go hire that "cheap" guy to hook it up for you when you finish.
I am impressed that you know what manual "j" is, based on that Im' going to guess that you have some engineering background. What does your ductwork look like? Was it sized properly? Does it leak? Do you know how to braze...safely? Can you leak check? Pull a vacuum? Set dip switches? Perform a combustion analysis? 
Save that dollar, but if you don't have the answer for these other questions, you might just be spending it and some more like it on utilities.


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## Fly

*DIY vs Licsenced Contractor*



#CARRIERMAN said:


> Hi vey
> 
> You brought up a valid point about DIY, but alot of what you said is brought on by the publics unwillingness to educate themselfs. I am sorry that your father in law paid that much for a low end piece of equipment. But on the other side of the coin, *how much did it cost to build the car your driving, produce the gas it uses, to be repaired at the shop. I bet no one ever thinks about that.* But to me climate control and safety for my household is worth a ton more. The one example I find most irritating is no one has a problem paying someone to come in with a vacuum cleaner and charge them $80.00 plus dollars and hour to fix something that just craps paper. But when it comes to me making what I make I am a thief. I do not understand the general public and their reason behind this, but I'm not here to argue and I know what I'm worth.
> 
> Rusty


I am new to this forum and reading this since I am replacing my A/C unit.
Nothing makes me more crazy than a lic. contractor trying to rationalize his over charging. What does building a car have to do with over paying for a/c equipment? Most A/C guys think that their lic. entitles them to scam the ignorant public. I was quoted 7k to replace my A/C the cost of building the unit is covered when the price is set. It is the contractors marking up the cost and making more on the mark up than the entire job. It is a shame that a/c guys have the same rep as a used car salesman.

It is far from rocket science and all the answers are available on google. You will need a bit of common sense and a legit A/c guy to help with the freon. My 7000.00 quote will turn into 1500.00 doing it myself. I would rather pay someone to do the work for me however, No lic contract is worth 5,000 profit for a days labor. Call 10 a/c companies and you should be able to find a guy who is not offended that you need to save some money. The company I found is charging us 400.00 for the removal and charging of our new unit once I install it. In the mean time, he has been helpful with his advice. It is obvious that most contractors spend their time explaining why they are worth the money mostly because they know they are overcharging. An honest one will shoot you straight and wont try to make it out to be something it is not.

Call a local A/C company and ask to speak with a technician. Explain that you want to do most of the work yourself but you will need some held to charge the system when it is installed. I then offered the tech 100.00 for his experienced answers to my questions ( 100.00 is worth it to me compared to the google time it will take ). You will instantly know if they think their knowledge should be kept top secret or if you are dealing with a workable company. Let the guys with the egos sit at home with no income instead of them helping a person in need and at the end of the day the could have earned an honest wage. Too much greed is why our country is in trouble. 


:furious:


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## texas115115

*Wow wow*



vey said:


> The licensed industry is why there is more interest in DIY.
> 
> I am looking a an old invoice from 4 years ago. My elderly father-in-law had his outside condensor unit replaced then with almost the same model as the original, so things matched up fine with his air handler. No need to replace the lines, run new electrical wires, etc. Just pull one out and put one in.
> 
> It was a Rheem 3 ton, 10 seer, no heat pump -- this a pretty basic and inexpensive model.
> 
> The invoice is for over $4,000. We know from the low life companies that the unit cost about $1,000, so how can any industry justify charhing $3,000 for delivery and let's be generous and say three hours of labor?


 Not trying to offend anyone BUT------
Do you carry a couple of MILLION DOLLARS OF GL like the pros do? How about a few thousand dollars worth of tools in your truck. Pay for your helpers( wage, taxes, insurance) Commerical insurance on your truck.

I am sure you know someone who is in busness for there selves ask them how much they make after the smoke clears. 

Think about how much you earn at your job. Then add all the bennifits you get, Don't the pros deserve the same. Who is going to pay it for them? They are. Where does the money come from? You. 

So when you think one company is charging too much you find a nother one.

Not to mention the hunderds of things that could go wrong during instulation that a pro can avoid, or correct when it happens.

Sometimes it is better to hire out work than to dyi. 

I do veerything except my electrical and sewer.

Do what you can, hire a pro for the rest.

BUT there is a lot of overhead in owning your own company.:thumbup:


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## AndrewF

hennyh said:


> I plan to replace my 25+ year old air handler (GE) and 4T heat pump (Carrier). I plan to order online and do 90% of the installation myself and hire a HVAC tech for final refrigerant charge and system checkout.
> . . . .
> I'm open for all advice suggestions for those that have chosen this route.


I hired a pro to help with the decommissioning 2T system and then to braze and charge the new 5T system in this house last year. Since the system still worked, but was just too small, we closed the liquid line valve on the outdoor unit and let the system suck all the R22 into the condenser. We then closed the suction valve and shut the unit off.

At this point, the gauges showed negative pressure and we then cut the line with no refrigerant lost to the atmosphere.. (I sold the condenser and A coil a month later.)

Paying around $400 seems reasonable and is in-line with what I have paid before.

I did everything else myself and am happy with the finished product.


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## carlb23

Three years ago I had a similar situation. I replaced my old 3.5T A/C with at goodman 3.5t HP and my old 120,000 btu 80% furnace a goodman GMV 92,000 but 95% furnace. 

I closed the liquid line and pumped down the system to negative pressure and cut the copper lines out.

I did the install myself and it went well. I did hire a tec to braze the new copper lines and take the old equipment away. The system has been running perfectly for the last three years winter and summer 

carl


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## beenthere

#CARRIERMAN said:


> That in itself is a violation of the law, which when I took my test, said that it was illegal for any company to sell any piece of equipment to the public that was not self contained and had a refrigerant amount greater than 5 lbs.
> Good Luck
> Rusty


There was never any such law or reg passed.

Althogh it was originally written that way.
It was enacted.
It was stayed before EPA regs took effect. Some courses/books were not corrected.
And some proctors didn't know about it either.


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## COLDIRON

*Good job*



hennyh said:


> My plan is to hire someone to do the decommisioning of my old system. (recovery of refrigerant)
> 
> I've read EPA 608 and I don't see anything that restricts sale of the actual equipment. It appears that most of it limits what refrigerants you can buy and in what size. It also limits the capacity of the system you can evacuate from.


 
hennyh good job you are right you can still buy equipment but not refrigerant.
If you do buy equipment you better hope you don't have any problems though.
If you do it will cost you big time the HVAC pro's frown upon people installing their own equipment.
Even though this is a diy site can you feel the tension in the air and on the screen when you state you are installing your own equipment.
I don't recommend you do but every body likes to save a buck.
40 year HVAC mech


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## hvaclover

You know what burns me most is that although this is a DIY forum the majority of hvac solutions are given by bonified pros. we got some knowledgeable DIYs who are pretty sharp given the fact it is not a livelihood for them.

But it really burns me when some loud mouth country-club know it all comes here and says he is going to do his own hvac system. Great. More power to you. You'll get our best info to help you along. But what i cant stand is the SOB who starts beating on the industry because some evil contractor made a buck on his poor old sick pappy living in his back country shanty.

I find it insulting to the PROs here who give free advice on their own time for no pay just to make sure the DIY doing his own project gets better then a "that's good enough" install.

I don't know if what _*vey*_ is crabbing about is honest or just more of the same over exaggerated tantrums or not. $4000. wold be on the high end 
in my area but I don't know about Vey's. It could be right or it could be Vey inflating the original invoice by a couple thousand dollars just to sooth his wounded sense of cost at the expense of the hvac industry.

I am very straight and honest with my customers and that is why they use my service.

On the other hand I fired a customer the other day for about the same reason that I don't like Veys post. 

i showed up to do an annual tune up on a second year ac install. When I checked the condenser it was running hot cause the condenser was plugged. There is a louvered guard around it which makes cleaning a bit difficult.

When I advised the customer it would require a little more attention then usual and cost more she became angry.

Seems like any thing over twenty bucks bothered the customer that day.

We had installed a 95% two stage VS furnace with a 14 SEER ac and UV light.

Customer complained that she paid too much (which is a fabrication as she had gotten ten estimates and ours was in the middle with the best warranty) and that she should not have to have the equipment serviced every year.

Turned out a relative and another contractor were telling her it was too new to be serviced.

SO I told her to call me when she wants to have the equipment serviced.

I got back to my office and called her and told her to let the relative and the other contractor repair it if it breaks down.

i wasn't going to let her go off on me again. She was so loud the neighbors would have thought there was a fight going on. I don't need that.


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## texas115115

*yeh*

y ou said it HVACLOVER:thumbup::thumbup:


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## carlb23

I just want to thank the pros here and on the other board. While I installed my heat pump and furnace three years ago and didn't even know either of these two sites existed at the time. I have visited this and the other site while tweaking my system for optimal performance and asking some questions. In all but one case on the other site, all of the pros Beenthere, HVAC, bald and others have been very helpful and never once condescending or trying to make me feel stupid. 
If a DIYer comes here to bash tradesman that have done work for them why should the pros want to be helpful. 


Carl


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## Whinners

*Whinning*

You pros are something else. You come in here and whine about somebody having the incentive to try something themselves because your operating cost have to be passed on and customers don't like it. Some of us have actually paid for an education. I myself have taken courses in college and have a class 3 license which includes ammonia systems but i chose another field to make my money. I too have operating costs as I am a contractor that does commercial buildings and home buildings. I don't get all whinney when someone wants to build there own deck or shed or garrage if I am not willing to give helpful advice I politely tell them they need to do some research or just go away. I don't cry about operating costs. If you aren't willing to help don't bother to post is all I am saying. People are smart enough to consider the risk they are taking not looking for a lecture on how you should let a pro do it. I think we all know that some just don't have that kind of cash to pay for your and your employees benifits in this economy and are looking just for a helping hand to try to stay a float.:jester:


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## bluefitness

I just realized this post was from 2006. Why are diyers always cautioned about warranty issues. The only warranty they would likely lose is the labor warranty (usually on 1 year) and the time that has elapsed from the manufacturer date and actual install date. I guess they couldn't register their unit as some manufacturers require this to take advantage of the full warranty length. If it is not registered, it just defaults to the basic warranty. I have done a lot of warranty work for equipment that my company did not install. I never ask for an original invoice. I usually just go by the manufacturer date. The manufacturer will usually go by the model and serial as well to determine whether a unit is under warranty. The only time an invoice would be required is if it is outside of the warranty period based on the date of manufacture. IDK maybe I'm missing something. 

I do a lot of diy work myself and get the same resistance from other trades people. That is why I like this site so much. Part of the reason I do it myself is for cost savings, but I also enjoy learning different trades and seeing the finished product. A lot of jobs you do around the house could be done by a company. You could hire a maid, landscape maintenance, pest control company, etc. All of these companies have overhead. I just choose to clean my own house, mow my own yard, spray for insects, etc. As long as I do it properly and safely, I don't see anything wrong with it. I guess I don't see why people get so bitter about doing work yourself. Everything doesn't need to be done by a professional.


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## beenthere

Bought off the internet.

The manufacturer doesn't give a part warranty.
Since its dealers that are selling the unit over the internet. Its the dealer that has to honor the warranty.


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## beenthere

With a screen name of "whinners".

You probably do more whinning then you let on.


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## hvaclover

i don't honor anybody elses warranty. I will only honor factory referred warranty claims on my line.

If a customer does not tell us until we arrive that the equipment is still under warranty we call in the serial number. If it's a customer bought off the internet piece of equipment we inform the factory. That voids the warranty on parts.

Sounds harsh I know. But to expect a pro company to foot the freight of returning a part for equipment they don't sell (especially if the customer does not tell the dispatcher they expect part warranty coverage) is not fair. We don't make overhead being altruistic in that manner.

I will happily give advice here when ever I can. But those few DIY who install their own stuff take the risk when buying direct and should not put the burden of ruined parts for a botched install on the backs of the pros they were trying to circumvent in the first place


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## bluefitness

beenthere said:


> Bought off the internet.
> 
> The manufacturer doesn't give a part warranty.
> Since its dealers that are selling the unit over the internet. Its the dealer that has to honor the warranty.



Are you saying that the manufacturer just voids all warranties from these dealers? I would think that the manufacturer is unaware that they are selling them to the general public or just don't check. A lot of these internet sellers seem to be HVAC companies that sell online as well. If the dealer that sells these units handles the warranty, why are there so many comments on voided warranties?


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## bluefitness

hvaclover said:


> i don't honor anybody elses warranty. I will only honor factory referred warranty claims on my line.
> 
> If a customer does not tell us until we arrive that the equipment is still under warranty we call in the serial number. If it's a customer bought off the internet piece of equipment we inform the factory. That voids the warranty on parts.
> 
> Sounds harsh I know. But to expect a pro company to foot the freight of returning a part for equipment they don't sell (especially if the customer does not tell the dispatcher they expect part warranty coverage) is not fair. We don't make overhead being altruistic in that manner.
> 
> I will happily give advice here when ever I can. But those few DIY who install their own stuff take the risk when buying direct and should not put the burden of ruined parts for a botched install on the backs of the pros they were trying to circumvent in the first place


Wow, that is pretty harsh. I see your point though. I always tried to help customers with warranties as much as possible. It builds a good relationship with them. Word of mouth always brings in a lot of business. I can't tell you how many times I have replaced a unit at one house only to come back a few weeks later to replace their neighbors unit.


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## beenthere

The manufacturers know they're being sold over the internet.

Because. If you call a contractor out to repair it. On a Saturday night.
They won't put a part on it. Unless you pay FULL price for the part.

Then, you get to send teh part back to where you got the unit from. And accept a token couple dollars for the part.

Means you could end up paying $400.00 bucks, for what would have been a free part. if you had a local contractor provide and install the unit.

When its 95° degrees out, on a Friday evening. Most people aren't willing to wait for the internet company that sold them the unit to send the part. That won't get to them until Tuesday.

Any part turne in for warranty. needs a serial number from the unit.
The manufacturer knows who they sold it to.
And when teh customers address is 1800 mile away. Theyknow it was an internet sale.


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## hvaclover

bluefitness said:


> Wow, that is pretty harsh. I see your point though. I always tried to help customers with warranties as much as possible. It builds a good relationship with them. Word of mouth always brings in a lot of business. I can't tell you how many times I have replaced a unit at one house only to come back a few weeks later to replace their neighbors unit.


I don't make money returning other mfgs psrts.

And remember, I said if it was a botched DIY looking for somebody to pull their fat out of the fire by trying to deceive an hvac co.

If the the customer has no paper work and we determine from the factory it was sold to a local contractor we provide the customer with their number and charge for a service call. With a legit case like that we are minimumly inconvenienced and the customer gets the warranty work. 

And we get a lot of repeat business that way also.

Should have put that in the previous post.


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## bluefitness

hvaclover said:


> I don't make money returning other mfgs psrts.
> 
> And remember, I said if it was a botched DIY looking for somebody to pull their fat out of the fire by trying to deceive an hvac co.
> 
> If the the customer has no paper work and we determine from the factory it was sold to a local contractor we provide the customer with their number and charge for a service call. With a legit case like that we are minimumly inconvenienced and the customer gets the warranty work.
> 
> And we get a lot of repeat business that way also.
> 
> Should have put that in the previous post.


Even though you don't make much off of warranty work, I would still do the work in order to retain the customer. That customer could be yours for years and bring along with them a lot of friends and families. I would never refer them back to the original installer (unless the unit is still under labor warranty). You have your foot in the door and have a new customer. There is no reason to send them back to your competitor.

You could always charge a warranty processing fee as well.


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## hvaclover

bluefitness said:


> Even though you don't make much off of warranty work, I would still do the work in order to retain the customer. That customer could be yours for years and bring along with them a lot of friends and families. I would never refer them back to the original installer (unless the unit is still under labor warranty). You have your foot in the door and have a new customer. There is no reason to send them back to your competitor.
> 
> You could always charge a warranty processing fee as well.


well, now we get into the area of professional reciprocation.

If i know who the installing contractor is don't I have a responsibility to inform the customer? And if a I know the installing contractor isn't that stealing from a colleague?

Some pros who read this will says "alls fair in love and business".

But contractors refer to each other. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.


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## vdu

The discussion here has gone way off from the original post.


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## hvaclover

..It happens:laughing:


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## kenmac

hvaclover said:


> But contractors refer to each other. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.


 

Of course , your right:yes:

There are rules that some of us go /play by
I refer calls I can't possibly get to... & they refer to me when they can't get to them... They don't bad mouth me & I don't bad mouth them


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## hennyh

I started this post 2.5 years ago and see it's still going strong.

I did end up installing a 4T split system (Rheem RPNE/RSHA) and did 100% of the work myself.

My out of pocket expenses were about $3000 - $3500 including supplies and specialized HVAC tools. At the time contractor quotes were $8000 - 12,000.

*Here are my observations for what they're worth:*
1. There is a lot of homework involved in DIY HVAC. (ex: Reading technical manuals backwards and forwards, studying EPA to get certified, practicing brazing technique, practicing sheet metal work, doing vacuum pull dry runs, learning how to use the specialized tools and equipment.) This was far more time consuming then the actual installation work. (as it should be if you're a DIYer) 

2. HVAC is not well suited for general DIY. It would be tough for a typical homeowner/DIYer to becomes proficient in general HVAC. However it's feasable for some homeowners to become experts on their homes particular HVAC system.

3. There will be some surprises along the way. None were too tough to solve but don't assume it's a matter of "plug and play":

(ex) My new air handler was throwing a breaker - I thought I screwed up - It turned out the old breaker was weakened from the repeated throws on and off during installation.

(ex) I heard a loud hum from the air handler. It turned out to be harmonic resonance from the metal cover over the LV transformer that was solved by beefing up the cover. Once again I thought I screwed up something.

(ex) My HP wouldn't come on when I cycled power. It was a flakey defrost board.

(ex) The Rheem HP manual didn't say that the error codes showed that last known state and don't automatically toggle to normal after the 5 minute delay. That caused me some confusion.

4. I didn't solicit help from a contractor. I think it's best to either do this 100% solo or contract it all out. I don't think the "top shelf" pros will be eager to do co-op installs. You'll likely find "hacks" but who wants them touching your installation. 

5. There generally is warranty support. The online supplier I used made good on a warranty claim. (Rheem RPNE Ranco defrost boards had a problem where they'd get confused if there was a power glitch and have to be reset by shorting the test pins). However warranty support is kind of a PIA. They'll send you new parts and bill you first. Once they receive the defective part they'll issue you credit.

I saved so much money that even if I have a future part warranty issue that's denied I can pay out of pocket and still be way, way ahead.

6. You can get anything you want online but it helps to be able to buy certain items from the local supply houses. Some of them are not eager to sell to homeowners. The EPA cards goes a long way to get your a COD account. 

*Summary:*
My system has been running great for the past 2.5 yrs and I don't regret going the DIY route. I saved a bundle of money, learned alot, had fun doing it and performed an installation that I feel is far better then a pro rushing to complete a job.

However HVAC work can be unforging to errors and the devil is in the details. It's not "cookie cutter" work and there will be surprises/complications that you'll have to deal with and you likely won't have the luxury of experience to draw on. Preperation is far more time consuming then the actual work for a DIYer.

I'm trying to tell it like it is and going through this process gave me a lot of respect for the guys that do this stuff day in and day out. (laying on your back threading refrigeration lines thru a crawlspace is not exactly fun)


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## anku

Way to go 'hennyh'. Good job !!!

Thanks for the followup post.


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## Home Air Direct

anku said:


> Way to go 'hennyh'. Good job !!!
> 
> Thanks for the followup post.


Yep, that is great honest feedback. It is rare to get the follow-up.

:thumbup:Kudos to you for caring enough to pass this along.

You are exactly what a DIY'er needs to be. Interested and passionate.


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## chris salerno

*Help me out if possible*

Hey Rusty maybe you can help me out.
I have a Trane 1200 XL outside unit that make a buzz sound when I help the fan it starts right up.
I want to trouble shoot the problem.

I shut down power and open the unit up saw a blinking light .
is there some sort of part that helps get the fan moving or is my problem the fan Motor.

I have most of the paper work mostly greek to me.
I can read meters for help.
I know this is a simple problem but need a little experenced help.


Can you help pin point me in the right direction.


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## Dave Carney

chris salerno said:


> Hey Rusty maybe you can help me out.
> I have a Trane 1200 XL outside unit that make a buzz sound when I help the fan it starts right up.
> I want to trouble shoot the problem.
> 
> I shut down power and open the unit up saw a blinking light .
> is there some sort of part that helps get the fan moving or is my problem the fan Motor.
> 
> I have most of the paper work mostly greek to me.
> I can read meters for help.
> I know this is a simple problem but need a little experenced help.
> 
> 
> Can you help pin point me in the right direction.


 
I'm a novice and feel guilty about taking a stab at this but, I believe the capacitor is what helps get the fan going.


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## hvaclover

*Diy cchecking voltage to on lie equipment purchas*



Home Air Direct said:


> Yep, that is great honest feedback. It is rare to get the follow-up.
> 
> :thumbup:Kudos to you for caring enough to pass this along.
> 
> You are exactly what a DIY'er needs to be. Interested and passionate.



 
 _Multimeter_ without fused leads _explosion_


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## Home Air Direct

Oh Come on Hvaclover, give him more credit than that. Henny is light years ahead of 99% of DIY'ers. Probably way ahead of the curve of most of what you guys call hacks too.:wink:


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## kenmac

hvaclover said:


> _Multimeter_ without fused leads _explosion_


 

That's what I call letting the smoke out:thumbup::laughing: I didn't know your side job testing multi meters:laughing:


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## hvaclover

kenmac said:


> That's what I call letting the smoke out:thumbup::laughing: I didn't know your side job testing multi meters:laughing:


no! I side line testing Fluke merters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jpw...eature=related


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## witsmanc

*New to this site*

Hi Everyone:

I really like reading from the pros and diy. I like reading both sides. I don't have the knowledge or the time to diy my ac but I am getting some ideas from the comments.

My question, I am tight on money (like everyone else) and I know I need to replace my ac unit. I am in Central Florida so the ac is the most important part. I thought I would replace my inside unit this year and my outside unit next year. This way I can squeeze it through I think. Are there many negatives to this. 

I really want to replace my inside unit because the filter system stinks and my tech, I am changing companies, says there is a leak but that was two years ago and my system is fine and has been checked at least once since then.

One thing I have been trying to do myself is clean my ac coils on my air handler. I had a company come out, which my wife had used for years and years, to clean the coils on the inside unit. I asked how much it would be and he told me $400. What the hell do I know and I said ok. He messed around for about 15 minutes while he was doing the regular service call and came back and told me it would be $600. Before he left he said it was hard to say it could be $800. That kind of BS is not right. They won't get any more of my money. Consumers should stand up and not be taken advantage of. There are lots of good honest people out there, I believe.


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## jmgt150

*New to this forum*

I would like to share my input on the "professional". I am a DIY person and I installed my AC unit about 14 years ago. Purchased it, installed it, ran the copper lines, hooked up the electrical, and then called a tech to vacuum, release the charge from the condenser to the rest of the unit, and check the whole system. Been working fine since. I remember it was a very reasonable fee. What is a "professional" anyway? My experience is a professional is someone that has a business card or a name tag on his shirt, many times authorizing him to charge a rediculous fee to the unknowing consumer. Kinda like taking your car to the transmission shop for an oil change. Next thing you know, they say your whole transmission is shot and a new one is $5000. Too many industries take advantage of the unknowing public. A/C work is definately a good example. I had a wire inside the condensing unit (heat pump) arc to the copper tube and blow a hole in it. I was out of town so my wife called an A/C company. 45 minutes of actual work and $900 just to solder the hole and recharge the system. Is there anyway to actually justify this?? These "professionals" charge based on what the CAN get away with, not what they SHOULD charge. Needless to say, I will never use them again but they don't care. There are plenty of other non-suspecting consumers to prey on out there. I'm not saying that all "professionals" are rip off artists....maybe I am....but I believe a true "professional" would intelligently consider the fee charged based on SHOULD vs. COULD. We have all seen the replacement A/C systems for simple homes costing over $10,000. How can this possibly be justified. We know what the hardware costs. Even a "professional's" overhead does not justify these rediculous fees. I wish everyone would take a very hard look at what is really happening to our country. Folks ***** about the loss of mom and pop stores due to Walmart but they don't look at the gross over charging of these small stores. Same with some folks who ***** about the DIY. Bottom line, good old fashion American GREED is ruining our country. Back when an appple was traded for a tomatoe, the economy worked and thrived. Now, with so many middlemen, like investors who make money without producing anything, it takes a bushel of apples to be worth a tomatoe. Sooner or later, our economy will crash...gee, maybe it's now. As for the A/C "professional", I respect those who value our society and share/help those less fortunate or who are eager to learn and experience A/C work. As for those who feel they need to justify their rediculous fees, keep in mind, many guys like me successfully do your type of work with success. What does that say about your "profession"??? I did it and I'm a high school drop out with no further education. A/C work is NOT rocket science!! If you need proof, just look at most A/C techs. We all know they fall into the same catagory of plumbers, mechanics, loader operators, roofers, concrete finishers, landscapers, porta-potti sucker/cleaner technicians, etc. Now these are all respectable trades but they are not really "professional". Now, when you can perform miracles such as part oceans, repair brains, cure cancer, move objects with your mind, end all wars, etc., I'll have the great respect for you that you feel you deserve. I have respect for all who attempt to DIY, even when they don't succeed. Seems like this is the back bone of what makes America great.


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## beenthere

jmgt150 said:


> A/C work is definately a good example. I had a wire inside the condensing unit (heat pump) arc to the copper tube and blow a hole in it. I was out of town so my wife called an A/C company. 45 minutes of actual work and $900 just to solder the hole and recharge the system. Is there anyway to actually justify this??


Your wife obviously called the wrong company.
The repair wasn't even done properly.

As for the 900 bucks. Once the problem was found, he should have informed her what the repair would cost, and then she should have had the option of saying no or yes.

A home owner can't be taken advantage of. Unless they let themselves.
So if she was taken advantage of, she left herself be taken advantage of.


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## jmgt150

So, let's see. Wife home with kids, I'm out of town, 95 degrees outside, technician says "no service fee, about $200 to fix leak, refrigerant at $100 lb.,
Yea, I see where we, typical homeowner consumers, should have done the math, based on our vast on depth knowledge of AC design, and made a better decision. Better yet, once he gave us a total, maybe we should have told him to take it back. Yea, your response is really reasonable...NOT!


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## beenthere

jmgt150 said:


> So, let's see. Wife home with kids, I'm out of town, 95 degrees outside, technician says "no service fee, about $200 to fix leak, refrigerant at $100 lb.,
> Yea, I see where we, typical homeowner consumers, should have done the math, based on our vast on depth knowledge of AC design, and made a better decision. Better yet, once he gave us a total, maybe we should have told him to take it back. Yea, your response is really reasonable...NOT!


LOL..

You just told us of your prowess at installing an A/C. 
Apparently you didn't give your wife a number where to contact you at.

When I tell a customer a price per pound. They always ask how many pounds will it take? Guess your wife didn't care if it took 1 pound or 100 pounds. You should be angry at her.

And yes. Only those that allow themselves to be taken advantage of, can be taken advantage of.

Your complaining about HVAC techs/companies. When it is you and your wife that allowed this to happen.

Do you take your car to the repair shop, and just say fix it. And then complain about the bill.

Or do you ask for a price first.

Same thing applies to any repair. If you authorize it without asking for the total first. Its your fault if you are taken.


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## jmgt150

To answer your question about the car..my wife would, as many wives and older folks do. As for a phone number to contact me, she did call but I wouldn't know how many pounds it uses and the tag is hard to read from 200 miles. Keep in mind, I installed the system but this doesn't mean I'm an AC tech or "professional". It does however, mean I'm a DIY person. I think a true "professional" would have an obligation to watch out for those who are not well versed in his field, not just charge what they can get away with. I do agree that folks should be responsible for themselves but we have to be reasonable. If it was that easy, we wouldn't need government and everyone would be as smart as you.


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## beenthere

Then you failed to ask your wife to ask the tech how much refrigerant it would take. Or what the final price would be. And are guilty of letting yourself be taken advantage of. Be angry at yourself then. Not the tech, or HVAC industry. You had the option to say yes or no to that service call. But didn't give your wife the proper instructions to find out cost.

I have talked to many husbands over the phone when at a house to do a repair. And they always wanted to know the price. And the why fors.

In the end. IT IS YOUR responsibility to protect yourself. And make/give the final approval for any repair. 

A "Professional" is someone that gets paid for what they do. Not determine if you think its an appropriate charge/fee.

Companies set fee's, not techs.

In many areas, HVAC is a 7 to 8 month make your money industry. And prices are charged accordingly.

My charge for that repair, would probably exceed what you were charged. But would also include the filter drier that should have been changed. And the proper vacuum done to the system(that isn't a 45 minute repair when done properly).


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## beenthere

PS: This is a DIY site.

Not a complain about the trades site.


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## Marty S.

You're right jmgt it's not rocket science or brain surgery,good thing too. Brother in law had brain surgery last fall and so far the bill is over a million. If I was smart enough to be a doctor you wouldn't find me fixing rooftops when the thermometer shows 125 up there or working on heat pumps when the wind chill is 30 below zero. We,the techs in the field, are just the average Joe with training and get paid accordingly.


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## hvaclover

jmgt150 said:


> So, let's see. Wife home with kids, I'm out of town, 95 degrees outside, technician says "no service fee, about $200 to fix leak, refrigerant at $100 lb.,
> Yea, I see where we, typical homeowner consumers, should have done the math, based on our vast on depth knowledge of AC design, and made a better decision. Better yet, once he gave us a total, maybe we should have told him to take it back. Yea, your response is really reasonable...NOT!


For the millionth time:
Always tell the tech to give you a price before repairs.
If the price looks high call another company before you give the go ahead even if he complains about waiting.
It's common sense. Don't blame the HVAC industry, which is mostly reputable, because you come down with a case of Buyers Remorse 
or find out after the fact you paid too high a price for a repair.

If a customer wants to check my price let them. like all better companies I charge higher than the hacks.

I won't change my price and the customer is either free to accept the repair or pay my service call.
One customer pulled a price for a half horse blower off the computer and and DEMANDED "The blower cost xx and you want to charge me xxxx for it?".

I just said "You are more than welcome to order that part and replace it your self. Even after you pay my service cal you will be ahead.".

I never heard a thing from her after. I won't go back if she has another problem though. i don't want to debate every time I go on a call.


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## jmgt150

Had to step out for a while and now Superbowl. As for the responses, I agree with most but it still isn't right. I guess that's why we're DIY folks. Speaking of DYI, I am installing an air handler with heat strips in my workshop. Picked it up for $50. Wonder what a tech would charge me to hook this up. Probably not a job that a pro would want to do. Thank God for DIY. Sure is warm in here. 41 outside.


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## hvaclover

jmgt150 said:


> Had to step out for a while and now Superbowl. As for the responses, I agree with most but it still isn't right. I guess that's why we're DIY folks. Speaking of DYI, I am installing an air handler with heat strips in my workshop. Picked it up for $50. Wonder what a tech would charge me to hook this up. Probably not a job that a pro would want to do. Thank God for DIY. Sure is warm in here. 41 outside.


You need an electrician if you don't have available 220.
An hvac tech could do it, but even I would call an electrician for that.


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## jmgt150

I already have it hooked up. Fortunately my workshop has a separate 200 amp service. I do, however, have a question though. If you were to install an air handler to simply blow heat into a workshop, how would you wire the heat strips? The unit is an old GE with a 3 speed fan. The cabinet has a decal reading "with heater #...., set fan on low...". The unit had one set of strips for 8640 Watts. It also has room for 3 more sets of strips. I installed one more set. Can I still run the fan on low? It is working but will it last? Also. I couldn't find the amp rating on the contactor so I simply installed a second one. Would one contactor typically be used for two sets of strips (17,280 Watts)? The fan motor reads 2.9 amps. Also, there are no sequencers used in this unit. The strips do have the overheat fuse and the 24V for the contractors coils do go through the overheat buttons (2 separate ones, one for each contractor).


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## beenthere

At 17KW, you better be use med speed at least. Keep your temp rise below 45 degrees.
And get ready for a jump in your electric bill.


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## jmgt150

I'm not too concerned about the electricity bill for my shop. The bill typically runs about $12 with lighting and some occasional welding and plasma cutting. Nice part is, this electricity account is separate from my house account. I am using the "low cost" electricity. I have a long way before I get into the "penalty cost" electricity. If it wasn't for the rocky ground, I would run a 220V line to power my house A/C compressor from my shop service. Maybe someday. What are your thoughts on just using one set of heat strips and leaving the fan on low? Unfortunately I didn't try it with only one set but it wouldn't take much to disconnect one. I'll just disconnect the lead to the contactor coil. In terms of heat strips, is a 8640 watt heat strip very big? Think it can warm up a non-insulated metal building workshop of 800 sq. ft., 14' ceilings when it's 35 degrees outside? Thanks for your input.


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## beenthere

8,640(8.64KW)watts, is over 29,000 BTUs.
Might, might not heat that shop. Depends how tight it is.

How much do you use this shop. If your rate increase is at 750KWHS. Thats less then 90 hours of on time in a month(744 hours per 31 days) for the heater using only the 8.64KWs.

Next time your in the shop. And the heat comes on to maintain temp. Time it. Then multiply that by 2. And you'll know how long it will need to run with just the one heat bank. And if you'll need both banks as it gets colder out.


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## jmgt150

Thanks beenthere. The shop is fairly tight. The "R" panel metal siding and roof does have the foam strips to seal the grooves. The doors, 16' garage door and metal walk in door, seal very good. Concrete slab. I just work out there occasionally. Maybe 2 nights during the week for about 3 hours and maybe 4 hours a day on weekends. I'm building a hotrod and occasionally I tinker on something else. So, maybe 14 hours a week, 56 hours a month. Also, I'm in Texas, just north of San Antonio. Most of time I wouldn't need heat but this year, it's been very cold (and wet). Seems like whenever I have time to get something done out there, it's too cold and I just put it off. I haven't got anything accomplished since the first part of December. The heater will just be there to use when it's just too cold.


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## beenthere

jmgt150 said:


> Also, I'm in Texas, just north of San Antonio. Most of time I wouldn't need heat but this year, it's been very cold (and wet).
> 
> Must be that global warming thing. :laughing:
> 
> Seems like whenever I have time to get something done out there, it's too cold and I just put it off. I haven't got anything accomplished since the first part of December. The heater will just be there to use when it's just too cold.


Might want to use a 2 stage stat. That way, when you go out and turn the heat on. it will use all the heaters. But after its warmed up, it will only use the first bank of heat. Unless its too cold out for the first bank.

That would give you quick recovery. And then give you a more constant heat after the building was warmed up.

Just check your temp rise. If you go over 45°. It tends to let the heaters get too hot, and shortens their life span.


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## jmgt150

When you say 45 degree temp rise, would I measure the temp at the air handler's intake and compare to the output air? If so, how close to the air handler should the temp be measured? I like your idea of a two stage thermostat. Shouldn't be hard to hook up since each 8640 Watt strip has it's own contactor. I wish I would have thought about that before I purchased the one I have.


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## beenthere

Yes, at its intake, and then about 1 to 3 foot from the supply plenum. So that the temp probe you use isn't effected by radiant heat from the heating elements.


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## hennyh

Hi, 
I started this thread over 5 years ago. My DIY Rheem HP installation is still performing great.

Today was the first A/C day of the season and I thought I'd do a thorough check. (I do keep the condenser coils clean, replace filters frequently and generally keep a close eye on the systems performance)

I hooked up the gauges and meters:

Ambient = 76 degrees

High side 180 PSI
Liquid line temp 82 degrees
Subcooling 12.7 degrees (Rheem says 9-12 is OK)

Low side 60 PSI
Suction Line at outdoor unit = 49 degrees
Superheat 23.9 degrees (TVX system)

Compressor amps = 11.4 amps

Delta T (air return - closest vent) = 26 degrees

Nothing seems to be much different then it was 5 years ago


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## xxxstevexxx

This thread has been going on for years. AWESOME.

However the "pros" (LMAO) posting here are the reason I am a DIY'er.
I have successfully added an addition to my house. 
I have successfully installed breaker boxes, ran wiring, network, electrical and phone.
I have successfully changed out hot my water heater.
I have successfully installed a soft water system.
I have successfully installed hard wood flooring.
I have successfully built a 1200 sqft deck made out of mahogony. (However I did buy the 200sqft gazeebo from an Amish carpenter)
I have successfully remodeled my entire kitchen and bathrooms including ALL electrical and plumbing.
I DID however hire someone to do my siding because it was darm darn hot when I finished my addition. However the cost was triple the cost if I had done it myself. But they did a fine job and I have no complaints.


Guess what my next project is going to be.... new heat pump / air handler.
Should I call a "PRO" LMAO.
Sure I will... to get his estimate. Tell him i'll call him... then do it myself.

USA USA USA USA


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## JackDidley

Just sayin'.




beenthere said:


> PS: This is a DIY site.
> 
> Not a complain about the trades site.


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## beenthere

xxxstevexxx said:


> This thread has been going on for years. AWESOME.
> 
> However the "pros" (LMAO) posting here are the reason I am a DIY'er.
> I have successfully added an addition to my house.
> I have successfully installed breaker boxes, ran wiring, network, electrical and phone.
> I have successfully changed out hot my water heater.
> I have successfully installed a soft water system.
> I have successfully installed hard wood flooring.
> I have successfully built a 1200 sqft deck made out of mahogony. (However I did buy the 200sqft gazeebo from an Amish carpenter)
> I have successfully remodeled my entire kitchen and bathrooms including ALL electrical and plumbing.
> I DID however hire someone to do my siding because it was darm darn hot when I finished my addition. However the cost was triple the cost if I had done it myself. But they did a fine job and I have no complaints.
> 
> 
> Guess what my next project is going to be.... new heat pump / air handler.
> Should I call a "PRO" LMAO.
> Sure I will... to get his estimate. Tell him i'll call him... then do it myself.
> 
> USA USA USA USA


Congrats, we're happy for you, and wish you well in all of your DIY endeavors. 

However, this is not a site for bashing products, or professionals of any trade. This thread has been hi jacked enough, and no longer serves a usefull purpose. I edited out some of your comments to keep the piece.

Thread closed.


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