# Patio door bottom sill over brick/concrete block



## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

You'll get much better feedback if you attach a few pictures of the area.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

cortell said:


> You'll get much better feedback if you attach a few pictures of the area.


Just got back from work. 
Here's a pic.

Just not sure how the sill will sit (water proof and pretty) from the exterior on the brick or concrete block behind the brick.

Appreciate the help.

Thanks,
CJ


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Ah. I see that by "over existing kitchen windows", you mean replacing them with a door.

The jlc site has a good thread on the subject of adding a door to a CMU wall:
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50399


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks Cortell.
I read the post and the discussion is more about load.

That is not a concern here since the wall already has a lintel.

Like I said, my concern is the bottom sill sitting on concrete/brick and not being flush. The sides will be framed with wood so that is not going to be a problem.

If I set wood at the bottom, how do I go about sealing it over brick ?

Can I set a 9" strip of Marble/granite or something similar as the sill over the concrete like in the pic below? 
Any thoughts?

Thanks,
CJ


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

cjf1980 said:


> Thanks Cortell.
> Like I said, my concern is the bottom sill sitting on concrete/brick and not being flush. The sides will be framed with wood so that is not going to be a problem.
> 
> If I set wood at the bottom, how do I go about sealing it over brick ?
> ...


To suggest something, I'd need to know details about the landing. The picture shows some potted plants. What are they sitting on? Is that a deck or a concrete landing? Can you take pics of that area and describe any details not evident in the pics?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If I understand you correctly the last thing you want is a sill sitting flush with a slab, deck or stoop.
A 100% sure way of getting water to come in under it and take out the subflooring, bottom plates and sheetrock inside the home.
Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

joecaption said:


> If I understand you correctly the last thing you want is a sill sitting flush with a slab, deck or stoop.
> A 100% sure way of getting water to come in under it and take out the subflooring, bottom plates and sheetrock inside the home.
> Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.


Right. We need to know the distance between the subfloor and whatever that deck/landing is. Once we know that, and what sits in front of that window, we can see if there's some solution that would allow there to be a 6" drop past the sill.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

cortell said:


> To suggest something, I'd need to know details about the landing.


Shall take some more pics tomorrow.
That is the deck on which you see the pots and were just lying there.

I do not plan on breaking the brick upto the level of the deck.
Infact, the subfloor inside is about 8" above the deck.

I plan on cutting 2 brick levels above the deck.

But how do I set the sill? Do I use wood or set in a slab of some stone.
I do not want to create a formed concrete sill.

I'd prefer wood, but then how do I seal it, cover it etc. once I have set the door in place.

If I use a slab of stone, I could set it over the brick 6-8" above the deck level, frame the sides with wood and seal the steel/alum sill over the stone.

Shall have some pics tomorrow.

Thanks,
CJ


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

joecaption said:


> Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.


Is that a custom order ? 
At the stores I have checked out, the max jamb was about 5-6".

What am I looking at price wise for a door with wider jambs?

And what do you suggest I use to seal the threshold that sits on brick (6-8" above the deck)?

Thanks,
CJ


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

cjf1980 said:


> Shall take some more pics tomorrow.
> I do not plan on breaking the brick upto the level of the deck.
> Infact, the subfloor inside is about 8" above the deck.
> 
> ...


Ah. That really helps. OK, so I would form a concrete sill, then fasten the door sill to that. That sort of thing is done in every home with a slab foundation; pretty standard stuff. Not sure why you want a wood sill. You could get that by still doing the concrete sill, but 1.5" shorter, then fastening a ripped piece of PT 2x10 board to that. But that's just a point for water penetration, and making that look good will take some thought.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks once again Cortell but I was trying to avoid a concrete sill.
Is that the only way to go.
Can I set a 9" piece of marble or granite on the bottom over the brick/block, such that it is about 1" above the subfloor? Any issues? 
That way I do not have to get down to the wood beams below. 


The pics below are from a video, on youtube. My layout is the exact same.
Wood was used for the sill/bottom framing over the concrete block and sitting over the beams.
In the other, the wood is over both the brick and block and it looks like regular silicone or similar sealant was used.

The rest of the door, I have it figured.

My biggest concerns are with the exterior - the bottom framing/sill, sealing and outside trim (to make it look pretty). Until that's out of the way, I won't be comfortable starting this project.

Thanks for all your inputs.

CJ.

I shall post more pics of the deck area and exterior when I get back from work.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

cjf1980 said:


> Thanks once again Cortell but I was trying to avoid a concrete sill.
> Is that the only way to go.
> Can I set a 9" piece of marble or granite on the bottom over the brick/block, such that it is about 1" above the subfloor? Any issues?
> That way I do not have to get down to the wood beams below.


Nope. Like I said, you can go about this any way you want. I'm just telling you how I would go about it. You can put a granite (not sure about marble) ledge there, but that's going to be more difficult. For starters, you need a level plane. You have an area that's half concrete-block, have brick. Fastening a piece of rock to that unevenness with the hope of getting a level area in which to put the door on...sounds tricky to me. Not to mention, how are you going to make it water tight? The number one point of water penetration in a door or window opening is the sill area. Putting wood there would be easier, but you're faced with the same issue of having unnecessary seams and joints that will be potential points of water infiltration. 

BTW, a variation of what I'm suggesting is that instead of a concrete sill across both the block and the brick, pour it above the concrete block only, then lay a matching row of bricks in front of it. That would give you a very natural end result, IMO. A little more work, as you need to do some masonry, but shouldn't be too bad.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

cortell said:


> You can put a granite (not sure about marble) ledge there, but that's going to be more difficult. For starters, you need a level plane. You have an area that's half concrete-block, have brick.


I plan on leveling the block/brick with a layer of mortar, then setting the granite slab over it.
Would that work?



cortell said:


> how are you going to make it water tight?


Where the brick meets the granite above, I'd have to seal with grout and sealant. I see pics of it done but wasn't sure what is done. Most of the videos just say seal and trim like it is the easy part.
Any ideas?



cortell said:


> Putting wood there would be easier, but you're faced with the same issue of having unnecessary seams and joints that will be potential points of water infiltration.


Yep working with wood is a lot easier. If there is an issue, it would be a whole lot easier to replace and fix. I'm unsure if I set the slab, that it won't crack with time - then breaking it up between the beams and exterior brick, is going to be a lot more challenging. 



cortell said:


> BTW, a variation of what I'm suggesting is that instead of a concrete sill across both the block and the brick, pour it above the concrete block only, then lay a matching row of bricks in front of it.


That's an idea. Do I pour around the beams below that rest on the concrete block also, bringing it upto the level of the subfloor (or an inch higher)? 

Thanks,
CJ


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

cjf1980 said:


> I plan on leveling the block/brick with a layer of mortar, then setting the granite slab over it.
> Would that work?


That's effectively a thin concrete (mortar) sill!  Yes, it would work. The question is whether it will stand up to time--not crack. A thin layer of mortar is fine for parging. Would I basically parge under a heavy door? No way. I'd make it thick and use concrete, and I'd tie it into the concrete block with rebar (reaching to 3/4" from the top of the sill.



> Where the brick meets the granite above, I'd have to seal with grout and sealant. I see pics of it done but wasn't sure what is done. Most of the videos just say seal and trim like it is the easy part.
> Any ideas?


I've got nothing for you there. Just remember. Seals fails in time. That's a guarantee. If I can avoid them, I do. In this case, I would.




> Yep working with wood is a lot easier. If there is an issue, it would be a whole lot easier to replace and fix. I'm unsure if I set the slab, that it won't crack with time - then breaking it up between the beams and exterior brick, is going to be a lot more challenging.


I don't see it that way. Fortunately, it's your project and you can do it any way you think will work best for you in the long run.




> That's an idea. Do I pour around the beams below that rest on the concrete block also, bringing it upto the level of the subfloor (or an inch higher)?


I'd put a coating of roofing tar on the beam ends . You want to keep the concrete from transferring moisture to them. You don't need to bring it any higher than the subfloor (and I wouldn't) unless you need the extra height to make a good step down to the deck.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

If you're going to have an 8" step from the interior floor to the deck, I would suggest laying a brick "rowlock" under the threshold, either before or after the patio door is installed. This way, it will match the rest of the house. Skip the wood, it won't look right & it won't last near as long.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

cortell said:


> I'd make it thick and use concrete, and I'd tie it into the concrete block with rebar (reaching to 3/4" from the top of the sill.


I've attached a pic with the proposed slab in black outline. The vertical lines are the rebar.
Is this a good solution?
I'll be covering the wood beams below with roofing felt #30.
I don't see any waterproofing between the concrete block and the beams which suggests it wasn't done in the early 50's.



jomama45 said:


> If you're going to have an 8" step from the interior floor to the deck, I would suggest laying a brick "rowlock" under the threshold, either before or after the patio door is installed. This way, it will match the rest of the house. Skip the wood, it won't look right & it won't last near as long.


Jomama, appreciate the input. If the slab laps over and below the brick, that takes care of the rowlock. I'm still worried about the concrete cracking with time.
A local friend contractor says there is no guarantee anyone will give .
Attached is a pic with more of the deck.

Thanks,
CJ


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

cjf1980 said:


> I've attached a pic with the proposed slab in black outline. The vertical lines are the rebar.
> Is this a good solution?
> I'll be covering the wood beams below with roofing felt #30.
> I don't see any waterproofing between the concrete block and the beams which suggests it wasn't done in the early 50's.


That is in fact what i was envisioning...except for the lip. How do you plan to form that with poured concrete? That would be one fancy form. I was thinking you'd go out flush with the brick exterior.

Funny. I had started writing out "use 30lb roofing felt" to cover the joists, but I'm suspecting it's going to be difficult to get good coverage that way. You're going to have to make some sharp bends in the felt, I think, and that means the felt could crack and open up. So, I went with roofing tar. If you can make it work with roofing felt, more power to you. Much less mess 

I'd also run a bar of rebar from left-to-right both at the front and the back of the sill. Keep it 2" from the exterior side; 3/4 from the interior side. If you're worried about cracking, that will help. All concrete cracks. The trick is to control where it cracks.


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## cjf1980 (Jul 18, 2009)

Here's a pic with a rowlock used for the sill.
The door could be sitting on a 2x6 framed flush behind the rowlock with a space between.

I'm being told that I'm overthinking it, but I'd like to be sure and understand the options.

Thanks once again, Cordell, jomama45, Joecaption

Appreciate any inputs.

CJ


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