# Replacing 4x4 posts on deck



## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Necessary? Depends on your local building codes. I believe toe-nailing is considered an acceptable post connection in some jurisdictions. I don't think the IRC forbids it and almost every jurisdiction uses that as the baseline.

Worth it? Absolutely; every penny.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

You said the ceiling on your deck. I usually associate deck with an outdoor structure with no ceiling, do you have a covered porch? Different code for decks versus covered structures designed as habitable space. Or maybe you live where there is no code?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Holzman said:


> You said the ceiling on your deck. I usually associate deck with an outdoor structure with no ceiling, do you have a covered porch? Different code for decks versus covered structures designed as habitable space. Or maybe you live where there is no code?


It's a covered deck. Maybe I'm using the wrong term. If it didn't have the ceiling, then it would definitely be a 'deck'  I'll get a picture up tonight once I get home.

We do have codes in my county but I couldn't tell you what they are. The posts are toe-nailed in currently. When I repair something, I like to make it better than before hoping that it will last longer so I was thinking those caps would be better than simply toe-nailing again ( as well as using treated lumber instead of the un-treated that was used.

I'll certainly get some pics so my situation is better understood


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

OK, so you have a ceiling over your deck. Do you want to follow code when you repair the posts, or are you simply going to replace them the way they are regardless of whether they meet code or not? By the way, I am not asking if you are planning to pull a permit, simply wanting to know if you want to make the repairs in accordance with code, or you simply want to replace the damaged parts.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

if it were me id be using the connector.. toe nails are only good if they are driven at teh proper angle and the wood doesnt split because of it.. theres much better holding power with a metal connector than a toe nail or through nail no questions asked.. play it safe dont mess around


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## ratherbefishing (Jan 13, 2011)

Using metal connectors on decks (and other framing) makes me feel better, whether someone's gonna look at it or not.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'll be getting the connectors tomorrow  Just so I understand, I should use one on each end of the post right? I suppose otherwise it's useless to use just one.

What is the proper way to fix the rail that has pulled out of the wall? ( See pic below )

Here are the pictures:

This is the worst one


Same one just the lower portion


This is one of the corners


The warping has pulled the railings out of the wall


Same just a wider angle


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Holzman said:


> OK, so you have a ceiling over your deck. Do you want to follow code when you repair the posts, or are you simply going to replace them the way they are regardless of whether they meet code or not? By the way, I am not asking if you are planning to pull a permit, simply wanting to know if you want to make the repairs in accordance with code, or you simply want to replace the damaged parts.


I want to make the repairs so things are safe and long lasting. I really wasn't aware I'd need a permit but I'll make a call to my county inspector tomorrow :thumbup:


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

They way that post is fastened to the siding is not right at all.
You need to make it free standing or anchor it properly.
Do you have any extra siding around?
it's a shame they screwed up your siding like that.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Are those posts supporting that roof?
You will need temporary bracing on that roof to support the roof when you change those post.
I wonder if the weight of the roof caused those post to deform like that.
They are pretty bad.
I'd be afraid to walk under that roof. 
Something has caused that deck to pull away from the house, not just warping. 
You may want to add some posts or go with 6x6 posts.


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

Umm how far off the ground is that sucker? Pics of roof and a distance shot so we can get the whole idea would help.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

sublime2 said:


> Are those posts supporting that roof?
> You will need temporary bracing on that roof to support the roof when you change those post.
> I wonder if the weight of the roof caused those post to deform like that.
> They are pretty bad.
> ...


Yeah. The ceiling is supported by the posts. I'm fairly sure it's mostly warping because the post in the picture isn't even touching the ceiling any more. There are five posts total holding up the ceiling. I figure the ceiling will be supported well enough by the other four while I change out one at a time.

The deck is still attached to the house. It's just the rails that are pulled out from the warped posts pulling on them 

I'll put some more pics up tonight.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> They way that post is fastened to the siding is not right at all.
> You need to make it free standing or anchor it properly.
> Do you have any extra siding around?
> it's a shame they screwed up your siding like that.


Unfortunately I have no extra siding. I'm sure I could dig some up out of my yard though because I've found small landfills from when the house was built lol

What is the proper way to attach the rails to the house?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Evstarr said:


> Umm how far off the ground is that sucker? Pics of roof and a distance shot so we can get the whole idea would help.


It's about 10-12 feet off the ground. I'll get some more pics tonight


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

I am no carpenter,but shouldn't 6x's have been used for at least the corners and center of the structure.
As for the post that is pulling away from your siding,I don't think a few nails did the trick.
There are some good framers here on this site that will be able to help you more than me.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Ravenworks said:


> I am no carpenter,but shouldn't 6x's have been used for at least the corners and center of the structure.
> As for the post that is pulling away from your siding,I don't think a few nails did the trick.
> There are some good framers here on this site that will be able to help you more than me.


Although many use 6X6 posts it really depends on the size of the structure.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Been busy with tons of other things to repair but here are some pics of the entire deck.

Ignore the ladder. I was taking care of some wasps 











I noticed this when I was handling the wasps. Is this an easy fix? Looks like the steps are seperating from the deck


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Those steps need taken down and done right,why are the railings out of plumb?
I can't really tell but it looks like the roof is going down hill ?


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

What is holding those steps on?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> Those steps need taken down and done right,why are the railings out of plumb?
> I can't really tell but it looks like the roof is going down hill ?


This may be an illusion. This pic isn't exactly centered/leveled. The warped boards may be giving it a sloped appearance. I'm going to look later from my neighbor's yard just to make sure.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

mae-ling said:


> What is holding those steps on?


Nails only. The nails aren't holding that in well and the angle of the steps along with the risers appears to be all that's keeping it up. Any suggestions on how to make this right?


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

SingleGuy said:


> Nails only. The nails aren't holding that in well and the angle of the steps along with the risers appears to be all that's keeping it up. Any suggestions on how to make this right?


You would be better suited to start those stringers from scratch,it appears they cut on them pretty good.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Maybe take them off, cut off the triangles that project under the deck and nail on plywood. Like this http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/stairs-upper-attachment.png only use treated plywood.

or metal straps like this http://www.decks.com/deckbuilding/Stair_Stringer_Attachment


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

without actually building new stairs and stringers - a simple and quick fix for the stairs is to rip a 4x4 on the angle of the stair angle and put it underneath the stairs up where it meets the deck and then put two posts on both sides that go down to a footing. if you can visualize a 4x4 cut the width of the stairs with the underside flat and level where it sits on top of the 4x posts and the top ripped and resting against the stair stringers. 

the reason I mention this method is the way the notch is now in the stringer cuts, they notch and rest against the double deck band holding them from moving inward toward the deck and it just needs something underneath to keep it from moving down and toward the deck, see what I mean?

as far as changing the posts on the deck, while changing each post use a temporary vertical support brace ( floor to beam) up against the deck beam right next to the post as you change it


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Well, I finally got around to working on this project. Took me long enough.

I got these stand-offs and they made this job very easy. 

I made a pretty bad error though. I cut a new post, one of the corner posts, about 1/4" too short. I made the mistake of measuring then cutting and realized that I needed to raise the roof a tad to make it level. This, of course, caused my now-cut post to be too short.

Is it detrimental that the roof be totally level? I assume 'yes'. I'm totally prepared to redo this if necessary. If not, then I feel better about this and will remove the 1/4" gap I now have. 

I certainly don't want to leave the gap because that means the weight of the roof is resting on the screws and not the wood.


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

SingleGuy said:


> Unfortunately I have no extra siding. I'm sure I could dig some up out of my yard though because I've found small landfills from when the house was built lol
> 
> What is the proper way to attach the rails to the house?


Just take siding off and mount your post to the house.Than put j channel around it and that way you would be cutting the bad spots out of the siding.

As far as mounting i would use leg bolts through the wall sheating.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

SingleGuy said:


> Well, I finally got around to working on this project. Took me long enough.
> 
> I got these stand-offs and they made this job very easy.
> 
> ...


1/4 inch is not to bad in most cases. if you were to hold a level against many surfaces of your home you would be amazed at how out of level things are either from time and settling or from being built out of level.


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

SingleGuy said:


> Well, I finally got around to working on this project. Took me long enough.
> 
> I got these stand-offs and they made this job very easy.
> 
> ...


Being out of level is no big deal unless its alot.Really if it doesnt look out of level you will be fine,not like people will put a level on it when they come to your house.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

scottktmrider said:


> Just take siding off and mount your post to the house.Than put j channel around it and that way you would be cutting the bad spots out of the siding.
> 
> As far as mounting i would use leg bolts through the wall sheating.


Thanks. I was considering this option.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

hand drive said:


> 1/4 inch is not to bad in most cases. if you were to hold a level against many surfaces of your home you would be amazed at how out of level things are either from time and settling or from being built out of level.





scottktmrider said:


> Being out of level is no big deal unless its alot.Really if it doesnt look out of level you will be fine,not like people will put a level on it when they come to your house.


You guys are right. I need to stop being such a perfectionist lol


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

scottktmrider said:


> Being out of level is no big deal unless its alot.Really if it doesnt look out of level you will be fine,not like people will put a level on it when they come to your house.



I just might show up with a laser and a level :laughing:


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Sweet. I got two posts up now:




I let my OCD get the best of me and leveled the roof line. However, even though the fit is tight, there is still a gap in one of the posts to the roof-line. I'm not worried about this since the fit was tight. I'm more worried about water getting in the gap though. What's my best option to keep the water out?



I'm considering wrapping all the 4X4s with 1/4" plywood just to finish it all out. That way I could seal it all up with caulk. It'd be a little work but might be worth it in the end. Opinions?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

To replace the railings, I plan to do something similar to this:


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

That post is under the overhang and will not get any water if the roof does not leak. I would use glue and put a shim between the post and post plate to tighten that bearing connection more. 1/4 plywood will be wavy, maybe consider full 3/4 treated stock to wrap the posts. Something that is not to wet with treatment.. even consider cpvc lumber for the wrap


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

I'd like to run this by you all before I commit the saw to the wood. Is this design bad? I don't love it since the rails are going to be 3.5" out from the deck ( second image.







I did that in Google Sketchup hoping to get my idea across better.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

After I thought about that design, the more I realize it's not safe. A kid's leg could go through that. My local codes don't seem to specify anything about that either but I'm going to check again.


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

I know the code in my area says you should not to be able to fit a 4" ball between any spindles or under the lower 2x4.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Why do you want to add post to the outside of what's already there???

Never seen anything quite like that before.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

kwikfishron said:


> Why do you want to add post to the outside of what's already there???
> 
> Never seen anything quite like that before.


I dont really want the posts that are holding up the roof to do double duty. If it's better to simply toe-screw into those existing posts with the railing, then by all means, I'll do that. Plus, my thinking is that by using seperate posts for the rails, it'll be more solid because I'll be using hex-bolts to mount those rail posts.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

It’s ok for the post to do “double duty” and support the railing.

I’m more concerned about the post to beam connection. Those post base aren’t designed to be a post to beam connector. Also it looks like you just used deck screws to attach the bracket to the post and the beam above it. If those are decking screws there not rated for any type of structural connection like that.

Did you at least run a ½” lag from the bracket into the beam above?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

kwikfishron said:


> It’s ok for the post to do “double duty” and support the railing.
> 
> I’m more concerned about the post to beam connection. Those post base aren’t designed to be a post to beam connector. Also it looks like you just used deck screws to attach the bracket to the post and the beam above it. If those are decking screws there not rated for any type of structural connection like that.
> 
> Did you at least run a ½” lag from the bracket into the beam above?


I started to run a jag but that beam is two 2x4s and the lag would just go between them. It wouldn't really bite into anything. Should I still do that? How long of a lag?


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

I went ahead and got 3" lag screws for the top where that beam is and 2" carriage bolts for the bottom. 

Thanks for replying and getting me to do that


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

For starters, in the opinion of the American Wood Council, you should not be using 4x4 posts in that manner, see page 7 here.

Even when 4x4" pastes are considered acceptable, the use of a 4x4" to support a structure above the deck is questionable, at best.

More generally, as regards the attachment of posts supporting deck guardrails, see Code-Compliant Guardrail Posts.

Bottom line: ask the AHJ that they want to see there.


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## SingleGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

The original 4x4 posts held up the roof pretty well. They just warped mainly ( in my opinion ) because the wood was never treated. Stain was never applied and I don't think it was even pressure treated.

However, I finally got it done:












What should I do to fill in these slight cosmetic flaws? 







I'm pretty happy with how it turned out overall considering this was my first time.

Now, on to replacing the steps!


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

looks great! I would not worry about the spaces around the post cuts now, the spaces will move around over time so keep an eye on them and let the wood dry out or consider a treated type small trim to wrap the post and sit on the top where the top rail meets it.


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