# Something eating my new floor joists???



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

I was under the house stapling wires and saw this. The soft parts seem eaten away, nothing was in that hole, (probed with nail, was solid inside) and no critters could be found! I searched the few joist bottoms that seemed to be affected for any other clues, but only found powdery crap on them. Again, I found no frass, no tubes, no ants moving, etc. Anyone?

Thanks!

DM


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## DexterII (Jul 14, 2010)

Looks exactly like what my dad used to call me sometimes. No, wait a minute. He would call me a knot head when I goofed up, but that's a knot hole. Nothing to worry about.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

You can't easily see it in the pic, but the previously smooth bottom is grooved, as if something ate the soft wood.

DM


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## PAbugman (Jun 29, 2010)

Is the joist pressure treated? It has a greenish tint, but that could be the picture. So as I understand it, the wood between the grain is soft and you can feel the raised grain? Does that make sense?

I see no galleries in the photo such as termites or carpenter ants would make.
Do you see any "pin holes" in the wood? These would look like someone took a thumb tack/push pin and made random holes in the wood. "Powder Post Beetles" would be the culprit, if so. How old is the wood? Was it kiln dried?
It appears to be a soft wood, correct?

From the photo, at least at this point, I don't see anything insect or fungus related. If it is determined not to be insect, maybe you should show the photo elsewhere on this diy site so that woodworkers/mill men can see it.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Yup, 'raised grain' and powdery crap on the sides of the new, untreated pine 2x12s.
I put the new joists in over the summer, so little time has passed. 
After some on-line research, it does sound like Powder Post Beetles...

Crap.... it never ends for me.

DM


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## PAbugman (Jun 29, 2010)

Are you in a state that has "drywood termites"? If that's what these are then I won't be any help as my experience is with subterranean termites here in the East. 

I'm not convinced yet that it is ppb's. The larvae make galleries just under the surface of the wood and can be identified. The adults make the pin holes as they chew their way out. The gestation periods can be long-even more than a year, especially in colder weather states, but quicker in warmer states. 

For conversations sake, let's say it is ppb's. Their are various species and not all of them re-infest the wood. Before treatment and worrying, they need to be identified. In all honesty, these guys are not one of my strengths. Learn as much as you can, and find someone who is good with these. Talk to operators who are experienced at treatment and ID as opposed to a sales-driven person.

If it is a re-infesting ppb and you want to diy, google tim-bor and boracare and any of the generics, as both are off patent now. How much space between bottom of joists and floor? It would require surface spraying the exposed wood. Do not insulate until you decide what to do or not do.

Re-look at the wood, take a stout screwdriver and look for galleries. Pin holes (exit holes) should be easy to see if they are there. Scrape the powder away and you should see exit hole. If you do, then determine if they are pin-holes or oval shaped (valuable info). Could the powder be a mildew, mold, effloressence or something not related to the raised grain issue? Sometimes multiple things happen which can make it confusing. Drywood termites leave fecal pellets in the wood. Keep us posted.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Michigan. 

I need to crawl back under there tomorrow and inspect a bit closer. Pics will help.

DM


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

This is weird.... no tunnels, no pinholes, no signs of anything except this dry mold(ish?) stuff. 
This joist had smooth bottom. The next one was grooved.
Both have the powdery crap. 
You can see where I wiped it clean, no bug holes...
Some odd mold maybe? It's bone dry down there......

DM


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

From that pic I would say mold
Possible the wood still had a high moisture content


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

That's about all I can think of too.... I've sealed the (REQUIRED) crawl space vents for the winter... heh heh
so it should heal itself.

DM


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## PAbugman (Jun 29, 2010)

Good pics, good info; I feel safer saying that it is not wood-destroying insect damage, although I don't know what it is. Show it to the carpentry/wood guys on this site. 

Though I don't know what it is, I have a feeling that it will be easier to solve than an insect problem would be. It may be one of those issues that will resolve itself. The moisture content idea has merit-do you know anyone that has a moisture meter for measuring wood moisture content? They have 2 probes that measure conductivity between them. (Home inspectors, etc?)

Another thought: check with the place that sold you the lumber, or find a tag from the lumber to see if it was treated in some way. I know it wasn't pressure treated, but newer/other methods are emerging. 

If it is decided that the wood is still damp and you decide to use a dehumidifier in the crawl, run it on low as running it on high could dry it out too fast and cause warping/cracking, etc. Keep us posted, I'm curious.


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## andrewmilam (Oct 6, 2010)

That's deffinately Mold and is a wood destroying organism. I read that you have closed your foundation vents and that the problem will heal itself. I hope you have also installed a dehumidifier or else you are promoting to the problem of moisture intrusion. The crawl space needs to be a condition space. If their is nothing removing the humidity or conditioning the air than Mold will continue to grow and thrive. Mold needs 60% relative humidity to grow and thrive eliminate the problem thats causing all the problems and you will have a mold free crawl space an great indoor air quality.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

I have low heat going under there now, and it seems to have stopped it cold.
I will NOT be opening the stupid vents I had to put in in the spring, and when the inspections are finished I'll be permanently sealing the openings. (I also hear they are now OUTLAWING crawl space venting down south, likely for this exact problem. Now if they can just follow suit here....)

Thanks!

DM


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

seal it up good, and add a dehumidifier. I never understood the whole venting thing in the states. A crawlspace is not an attic.


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## mcgrathpest (Jun 27, 2010)

*not to worry*

you can tell from the first picture that the first person who responded was right. It's a knot hole in the wood. The second pic show what other people have also mentioned..It's mold on the wood.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

I knew it was a knothole. The grooves in the wood looked like insects though.

DM


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## ianc435 (Jun 12, 2010)

DangerMouse said:


> I have low heat going under there now, and it seems to have stopped it cold.
> I will NOT be opening the stupid vents I had to put in in the spring, and when the inspections are finished I'll be permanently sealing the openings. (I also hear they are now OUTLAWING crawl space venting down south, likely for this exact problem. Now if they can just follow suit here....)
> 
> Thanks!
> ...


One drop of bleach should affect the mold. It will bleach it. Will not affect dirt. This is a test to determine biological vs dirt


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