# Roof repair versus reroof and which contractor to believe?



## Doc Sheldon (Nov 23, 2014)

As I understand it, Bob's $1500 bandaid wouldn't address sistering in new members out to the fascia? If it does, that seems to be the only bandaid option that accomplishes what you want. If it doesn't, then his $12k re-roof would seem to be the best option, cost-wise. I kinda flinched at the 1 year warranty on leaks, though... seems like darned little confidence in his own leak repair ability.

As someone with almost NO knowledge of proper roof repair methods (and its warrantability), Chris's analysis seems the most professional, but his proposed scope of work is not only the most costly, his "new roof" doesn't even fix your fascia problem, as I understand it. 

So yeah, I'd get more quotes. (disclaimer: refer to above statement about my lack of roofing knowledge)


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Just to many variables here.It looks like a simple ranch style house from what the pics show.Before I put 25K into a reroof for a flat roof I would yank the old roof off and install trusses and a regular pitched roof fixing all of the above problems.A lot depends on finances and how long you plan to live in the house.
I looked at a nice property for sale the other day that had been completely remodeled inside .they did a very nice job but the roof was flat and older.Not in bad shape but a deal breaker for me because of situations like yours.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Install all new trusses?

That would require not only all the structural part of the roof to be removed, but also the ceiling which are attached to the bottom of the joists, and with it all the recessed lighting, electrical boxes, ceiling fans, etc etc etc...

There is no way this can be done with the building being occupied, I don't think.


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## chemman (Apr 2, 2012)

Anything short of a total tear off and re-roof would be a waste of money, IMHO. I'd look into what mako1 suggested as you are never going to have a trouble-free flat roof, they just don't exist.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

mako1 said:


> Just to many variables here.It looks like a simple ranch style house from what the pics show.Before I put 25K into a reroof for a flat roof I would yank the old roof off and install trusses and a regular pitched roof fixing all of the above problems.A lot depends on finances and how long you plan to live in the house.
> I looked at a nice property for sale the other day that had been completely remodeled inside .they did a very nice job but the roof was flat and older.Not in bad shape but a deal breaker for me because of situations like yours.


25k to install trusses? Sure you could find billy bob down the street to do it, but to have it done properly will most likely cost more then 25k, then you get to reshingle it every 15-20 years. Where a properly and maintained low slope roof will last much longer then that.



miamicuse said:


> Install all new trusses?
> 
> That would require not only all the structural part of the roof to be removed, but also the ceiling which are attached to the bottom of the joists, and with it all the recessed lighting, electrical boxes, ceiling fans, etc etc etc...
> 
> There is no way this can be done with the building being occupied, I don't think.


It can be done but it will be very difficult for a home owner to have a normal life during that period. 



chemman said:


> Anything short of a total tear off and re-roof would be a waste of money, IMHO. I'd look into what mako1 suggested as you are never going to have a trouble-free flat roof, they just don't exist.


Completely false, there is millions of trouble free low slope roofs in the US.


@Op

That roof has been leaking for a long time. It's time to replace it.

1. Is there any slope at all?
2. How many different roofs are there? It's likely that is was a layover of a asphalt roof system. The spongy feel is likely caused by the coverboard insulation. 
3. What are your plans for this home.
4. How bad are the ceilings in side?


As far as your quotes take #2's and start it on fire. Or give me $2800.00 and I'll get the kids some nice Xmas gifts. Coating a roof, and I haven't even seen it, just the damage pictures, like this would be a complete waste of money. You do not want this guy working on your home.

1 & 3 might be ok but they are not comparing apples and apples.


We almost never provide a set number to repair framing members. There is just no way to know until things are removed.

What I would do is this. 

1. Remove roof.
2. Replace not sister new framing members in as needed. It's not good to cover up wet wood. If it's one or two or even 6 then maybe. If it's real bad no they need completely removed and replaced.
3. Replace all the bad decking. It might not be as bad as you think. 
4. Replace all the rotten fascia.
5. Have a properly sloped tapered insulation system installed.
6. Fully adhered 60 mil EPDM.
7. Replace soffit. 
8. Wrap fascia boards with prefinished steel.
9. Install new prefinished steel drip edge.
10. Add seamless gutters.

Low slope roof tips.

Keep the roof and gutters clear of debris.
Have it inspected annually. 


Once you have a scope of work then have 3 contractors bid off of your scope. Or hire a consultant.

Do you happen to have any pictures of the top of the roof?


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

First educate yourself. You are getting 3 different quotes because it is obvious you don't know.
Google roofing supply around your area. Go there and ask to see flat roof covers and try and find out what you have. You may even get referrals. 13 year old roof is not that old, unless cheapest was used or the rubbery substance you see is just coating. The overhang damage is older than 13 yrs. It started before the current roof and wasn't fixed then. I'd actually start with the cheapest repair, unless you can leave it until you can decide. But birds will get in and you may have to live with the smell. Pay extra to have all the facia covered with sheetmetal. Springy areas does not mean structural damage to frame. Plywood may be rotting but that can be spot repair. Again, this is assuming 13 years old roofing should still be good shape.
Modified bitumen adhesive (in metal buckets at stores) or flashing goop with fiber mesh can make some repairs and will give you time to think. Expensive, but Eternabond tape will make long term repairs on holes and seams on roofing/flashing (esp over the spots where flashings overlap). Tape is definitely diy. 
Close the overhang before birds get in, and if reroofing, create better slope and drain points.
Your overhang metal looks like a gravel stop, not a drip edge, so water may have pooled there.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Some additional information.

My comment on the roof being 13 years old was based on an online permit search from the city showing a record of "REROOF" in 2001. The previous owner has no idea because he bought the property six years ago and obviously has not been keeping up with maintenance.

I am concerned about the rooted joists, I have no idea how far back the rotting goes. However, I just don't know how you can replace these members without ripping the ceiling apart. The ceiling sheetrock would be nailed or screwed into these members every 8" or so. There will be ceiling fans, lights and other things attached to it so if the remove any members I see stuff on the inside being pulled apart. May be I am missing something.

I do have some pictures showing the top side of the roof. It looks patched over, and there are "blisters"?























































I am leaning towards a reroof instead of some temp repair.

As far as on the inside, there are two leaks, but there is no evidence of previous leaks, no stain that I can see, and tenants been there said these are new leaks, and are VERY SLOW leaks.

I read about a system that would convert a flat roof into a slightly pitched one by using tapered insulation. Is this worth looking into?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Chances are that "reroof" in 2001 was just a lay over. 

Fixing the joists on the ends is not a big deal, it's likely there is no damage in the middle. With only a couple of small leaks. Any time you have a leak in a roof like this it will show up on the inside. 

Tappered ISO insulation is exactly what I was talking about. I would go with at least 1/4" per foot. 

What it looks like is on the lay over instead of stripping in the drip edge with another layer of material the "roofers" set it on top and just coated it in mastic. 

I really don't think that the roof will be that bad as far as decking and framing members. To put it in perspective. On a commercial building we were replacing the roof, it had leaks all over the place, looked like a patch work quilt and anywhere from 7-13 layovers. We ended up replacing 3/4 of the plywood somewhere around 40 sheets of 3/4 plywood. Only had to repair one or two framing members.

Is this just pretty much a rectangle house? A tapered plan would be real easy to draw up. Basically it would be hips and a ridge. then just add gutters all the way around the house.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

That's a new trick for me.
Much of lifting layers looks like "painted" coating. May be that qualified as reroofing. Otherwise, it looks like cheapest material and cheapest work. I don't know what happens to roofs in Miami, but it also looks a lot older than about a decade. There is nothing there that can be saved. Sorry but time to bite the bullet or a second mortgage.

I hope you had the property inspected and had some idea what you were walking into.

Any slope will help and keeping the roof clean or trimming the tree away from the roof. Leaves hold water.

Prices quoted: I'm in north NJ and cost of living and labor are high. Miami may be on the high side? I think you should visit the roofing supply and ask for some referrals (wait until the pros are served). Go visit the building department and ask or look at the board for business cards or something. Ask the neighbors? At least a few more estimates. Ask for list of materials, brand and order of work and clean up. Don't include damage repair (material you can guess but ask how much per hour). Ask for photo of damage and repair. If you can, be around while the work is going on and ask to be called if damages are found. With cell phones, these things are easy to do. Many contractors may refuse to work as such, but you must protect yourself.

At least spend a day in this site and read what the roofers are talking about. Don't worry if you are confused, but you will begin to get some knowledge.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

carpdad said:


> That's a new trick for me.
> Much of lifting layers looks like "painted" coating. May be that qualified as reroofing. Otherwise, it looks like cheapest material and cheapest work. I don't know what happens to roofs in Miami, but it also looks a lot older than about a decade. There is nothing there that can be saved. Sorry but time to bite the bullet or a second mortgage.


Granulated cap sheet that has been sitting in water for years. It may have been coated at one time. At least that's what it looks like to me. It may even be a 90# sheet.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

OK, so based on the input here, I have contacted the roofers who provided quotes that I would like a quote for a total redo. New roofing, new fascia, new drip edge, new flashing...and the repair for the rotted joists.

One company quoted me $23,000 for a new roof, which includes a tapered ISO insulation. Now the quote doesn't say if the slope is 1/4" per foot, it says "1 inch minimum" and when I asked for clarification they said it means the highest and lowest point will have an elevation difference of 1 inch minimum. The building is for the most part retangular, with the building outline being 26' wide X 80' long. With the roof overhang it is probably 30'X84'. So if we go with 1/4" per foot the elevation difference between the crown and edge should be 3.75" right? Here is an aerial shot of the roof.










Now this insulation, it is applied over the wood deck and before the roofing membrane is laid? How tough is this material? Does it feel like styrpfoam or sponge?

Now this quote does not include ANY WOOD. No decking, no fascia, no joist repair. All that is additional. They provided me with a quideline.

1X fascia is $3.5 per linear foot.
2X framing $6 per linear foot.
Plywood $3.5 per square foot.

So a quick calculation of fascia based on my measurement of the roof outline, is 240' ar $0.35 the fascia will cost me $840.

If I need just one new sheet of 8'x4' plywood deck, that would cost $112.

If I assume a really bad rot all the way around on the edge of every joist. One joist every 24" I would need to sister every joist for 4'. On both sides I will end up having to sister 80 joists, say 4' for each, that would be 320' total @ $6 per foot that comes to $1920 about $2000.

So that would probably add $3000 on top of the $23000 quote, a total of $26000.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

The description of roofing membrane I don't understand.

*-nail 1 layer of commercial base sheet.
-hot steep type IV ashpalt solidly adhere 1 layer of GAF modified base sheet.
-hot steep type IV asphalt solidly adhere 1 layer of GAF glaskap cap sheet, white mineral granule surface roofing felt to the GAF modified base sheet.
-Loose granule embedded into overruns of hot asphalt at the side and end laps.
-All felts to be turned up walls and curbs a minimum of 4 inches.
-With hot Trumbull asphalt solidly adhere 1 layer of polyester base rubberized asphalt and white mineral surface, SBS 170 on all the wall backs, extending well into the flat roof and onto the wall, to the top, nailed and sealed.*

I am not too familiar with these terminology. Does it sound OK? Will I be able to walk on the roof? I remember I had a section of a flat roof repaired in another property once, and I remember they applied what they called bull with granules. Once done the stuff remains flexible but sticky. You cannot walk on it. So if you have leaves fallen on it or if I need to snake a vent or whatever, I'll end up with foot print on this material and tar like stuff on my shoes. When I hear "granules" it makes me think of that sticky tar like stuff that sticks to everything.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> OK, so based on the input here, I have contacted the roofers who provided quotes that I would like a quote for a total redo. New roofing, new fascia, new drip edge, new flashing...and the repair for the rotted joists.
> 
> One company quoted me $23,000 for a new roof, which includes a tapered ISO insulation. Now the quote doesn't say if the slope is 1/4" per foot, it says "1 inch minimum" and when I asked for clarification they said it means the highest and lowest point will have an elevation difference of 1 inch minimum. The building is for the most part retangular, with the building outline being 26' wide X 80' long. With the roof overhang it is probably 30'X84'. So if we go with 1/4" per foot the elevation difference between the crown and edge should be 3.75" right? Here is an aerial shot of the roof.
> 
> ...


That would be the worst case , I really don't think it will be that bad. But at least you have something to go off of. You may be able to negotiate a better price for doing larger sections. 



miamicuse said:


> The description of roofing membrane I don't understand.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not too familiar with these terminology. Does it sound OK? Will I be able to walk on the roof? I remember I had a section of a flat roof repaired in another property once, and I remember they applied what they called bull with granules. Once done the stuff remains flexible but sticky. You cannot walk on it. So if you have leaves fallen on it or if I need to snake a vent or whatever, I'll end up with foot print on this material and tar like stuff on my shoes. When I hear "granules" it makes me think of that sticky tar like stuff that sticks to everything.


I get what he is saying but it somewhat doesn't make sense. It's likely a cut and paste error. I like to write out my proposals in the order the reroof will take place.


-Remove existing _______ roofing material down to wood deck. If the existing roofing material is bonded firmly to the decking, the high spots will be scraped down as smooth as possible.
-The wood deck will be inspected for soundness. Any wood deck found to be damaged will be replaced at _____ per sheet of plywood.
- New 1/4" tapered ISO insulation will be installed over the prepared roof deck. 
-The next few lines would explain the type of roof material, how it penetrations and walls will be dealt with.
- The next few lines will explain installing the sheet metal, including gauge, color if previously chosen or "as selected" by owner, the profile and how it will be sealed in.
- The final section is about clean up and disposal of waste. 

Lets break down his estimate.

*-nail 1 layer of commercial base sheet. This is done to prevent asphalt seeping in to the home.

-hot steep type IV ashpalt solidly adhere 1 layer of GAF modified base sheet.

-hot steep type IV asphalt solidly adhere 1 layer of GAF glaskap cap sheet, white mineral granule surface roofing felt to the GAF modified base sheet.

This is a typical two ply asphalt roof. GAF is a good brand it's who we use for hot roofs, I would ask to clarify what base sheet and what cap sheet they are using.

-Loose granule embedded into overruns of hot asphalt at the side and end laps.
Typical detail, when you are moping on the cap sheet you want the asphalt to bleed out when the roll is rolling out. The asphalt is then covered up with loose granules. The laps should also be rolled in.

-All felts to be turned up walls and curbs a minimum of 4 inches.
-With hot Trumbull asphalt solidly adhere 1 layer of polyester base rubberized asphalt and white mineral surface, SBS 170 on all the wall backs, extending well into the flat roof and onto the wall, to the top, nailed and sealed.*

Do you even have any walls to flash? This is what that line is referring to. If you are, you want a base and a cap flashing the walls not just a cap.

Where is the edge metal lines? Type, color, and more importantly how it will be striped in. This is why the edge of your roof looks the way it does, the edge metal was not striped in properly or has failed many many years ago.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Any reason you want to stick with an asphalt roof or is that what the roofer has offered.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

It sounds like you need to hire 1985gt.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

:laughing: I'm guessing he is in Miami, I'm also guessing my wife would really like to relieve the stress from the Christmas season with a cold drink with an umbrella. Working vacation it is! :laughing:


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

I am open to other options, the asphalt roof is what was proposed to me. The other option he mentioned was "fiberglass" but he said that is not as good.

Are there other options?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> I am open to other options, the asphalt roof is what was proposed to me. The other option he mentioned was "fiberglass" but he said that is not as good.
> 
> Are there other options?


Asphalt is a fine roof, other options to be considered are;

EPDM: This is the most common single ply roof, maintenance is easy and leaks are generally easy to find. Generally done in black, but can be white also. I prefer to stay away from white EPDM for various reasons. 

TPO: 2nd most common in our area, some people do not like TPO. It comes in various colors, standard is White.

PVC: More expensive but studies show it lasts longer then TPO. Both have welded seams.


There is a few other options but the 4 listed are more tried and true methods. I know virtually nothing about fiberglass so I can not comment much on it.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt, a round trip plane ticket is waiting for you to come to Miami hahaha!

As far as walls, I have no walls. The entire roof is flat, one single "plane". No wall, no curb nothing, so the wall and curb reference was probably some standard boiler plate.

I asked him about metal and here are the comments.

Install new lead sleeves according to manufacturer's recommendations.
Install new 26 gauge galvanized G-90 vents for bathroom exhaust fans.
Install new galvanized 3x3 inch eave drip at all eaves.

It doesn't say how it will be tied in.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> 1985gt, a round trip plane ticket is waiting for you to come to Miami hahaha!
> 
> As far as walls, I have no walls. The entire roof is flat, one single "plane". No wall, no curb nothing, so the wall and curb reference was probably some standard boiler plate.
> 
> ...


Awesome where do I pick it up at?!?! :laughing:

It didn't look like you had any walls that's why I asked. I'm guessing they just forgot to cut out that part. Not a big deal it happens even after proof reading it. 

The lead sleeves, I'm guessing he is talking about Soil stack leads. Probably going to be 2.5# and that should be fine IMO. 4# is better but cost about 3x as much.

I thought on the coasts they liked to use aluminum. Maybe someone here that's closer could say for sure. If using steel I don't know that I would use Galvanized, it's great where I'm at but even then for the small amount it costs Prefinished looks much nicer. I would also ask for 24 ga minimum. Again another small up charge but it will last so much longer.

Here is how the edge should be done. Even though it says the interply sheet is required with 15-20 years I always do it anyway. Also in the case of a modbit roof you would have a base ply and a cap sheet, not the felts as it shows.

I'd ask a couple other contractors to bid, using the same materials, but different metal. Also who ever does it before you sign everything make sure it's spelled out in the contract. 

The first bid I'm wondering about the line about 1" minimum throws me off TBH.

Your going to put 25K or so in a roof, you are allowed to ask as many questions as you want, and get as many bids as you want. Also it doesn't hurt to ask to talk to previous customers and look at some of their work. Doesn't matter if it's 100 or 1,000,000 if you ask about references they should give them to you.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

The 1" minimum on tapered insulation, I asked them and the explanation is the slope will be 1/4" per foot, but the tjinest spot at the edge will be 1" minimum. So that means for a 30' width, the ridge 15' in the middle will be 3.75" higher then the edge.

Another thing is will the new roof proposed be ok to walk on or will it have that spongey bull and granules stuff that is sticky?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> The 1" minimum on tapered insulation, I asked them and the explanation is the slope will be 1/4" per foot, but the tjinest spot at the edge will be 1" minimum. So that means for a 30' width, the ridge 15' in the middle will be 3.75" higher then the edge.
> 
> Another thing is will the new roof proposed be ok to walk on or will it have that spongey bull and granules stuff that is sticky?



3.75 is if you started at zero, starting at a 1/2 it would be around 4.5. Either way not a big deal you can start with zero, 1/2, 1 in you just would have a little more insulation, and that isn't a bad thing.

Yes the roof will be more then fine to walk on, there should not be any spongeyness to it. The mastic and granules is a repair, and not a proper one at that


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks 1985gt.

I am eliminated a few proposals. The one who told me to apply "GACO" all over is out.

I am thinking a reroof is my only option.

I got one of the roofers to come back to give me a new roof bid, instead of the original bid to repair what's leaking. The numbers are really different, so I am more confused now.

I remember the last roofer with the tapered insulation and the commercial base sheet + GAF modified base sheet + mineral granule surface roofing felt...and 1X fascia $3.5 per foot and 2X framing repair $6 per foot. He told me his membrane is "the best" and not "crap like fiberglass".

Now this other estimate is fiberglass. His scope of work are as follows:

Tear off entire existing flat roof down to deck or smooth workable surface.
Renail decking to meet existing code.
Remove all roofing debris from premises.
Replace any necessary rotten wood, included in the price is 200 LF any additional is $3 per LF.
Apply 1 ply of 43 lb base sheet anchored to the deck according to code.
Using hot asphalt mop 2 plys of fiberglass felts to said basesheet.
Install all new flashing and lead stacks.
Using hot asphalt mop 1 ply modified bitument to said fiberglass felt.
Includes a ten year warranty
Includes all new fascia.
The metal drip edge is 3x3 and I can choose white finish or brown.
Flashings will be galvanized.

This one comes in at $12000, less than half of my previous quote.

Now this one does not have the tapered insulation, which on my last bid accounts for $6000. I asked this guy about tapered insulation, and he said those are "useless" and a properly done flat roof will hold water and last a long time. I asked if fiberglass is inferior to the GLASKAP CAP SHEET he said no, fiberglass is superb.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh ok when you said fiberglass I was thinking of the fiberglass roof systems that I've heard about not fiberglass felts.

The two proposals are basically just different ways of skinning a cat. When I talk about asphalt roofing I refer to as a 2 ply 3 ply ect roof. Now these plys can be made up of different materials. But they never include the mechanically fastened base sheet. That is a slip sheet and a protective layer, while 100% needed it is not a water proofing.


So the two ply system is a base sheet and a cap sheet. TO confuse everything A bit more there is a few different kinds of base sheet, a fiberglass one, and a SBS one. Sounds like he is using the SBS sheet, it's a bit thicker and has more flexibility. The granule cap sheet This is a good system, we installed on on a school this year from a different manufacture that has a 30 year warranty. So in short if it's done properly it will last a very long time. The only difference was instead of a granule cap sheet it was smooth with a flood coat and gravel. The only issues that come up with granule cap sheet is blistering. That happens more often with using the fiberglass felts as apposed to the base sheets. 

The 2nd one would be a 3 ply system. 2 plys of felts and 1 ply of mod base sheet. another good system the problem is normally people will come in tear off, mop the felts down, then after the whole roof is done then they install the modified cap sheet. The felts can trap moisture and when the cap is installed it can not escape, and creates blisters. This can also happen with the 2 ply systems it just doesn't seem to be as bad. 

The problem I see with this proposal is the old school way of thinking. While he is correct in saying a properly done roof will hold water, why would you want it to? The 1950's-1980's were a long time ago. There was a time when roofing was purposely built to hold water. It was the first "cool" roof to help keep energy costs low, it also kept the pitch from running all over the ground. I'm guessing he doesn't want to deal with cutting tapered insulation. Some people just don't like it.

The other issue I see is he doesn't mention if the modified sheet is granulated or not. if it isn't what is he coating it with? A smooth modbit roof has to be coated, yet another reason for the tapered insulation. A coating doesn't hold up well in the water.

Good on you for throwing out the coating job, so many others would have taken it and for all intents and purposes been taken. 

For a tapered layout that I drew up we would be higher then $6K for just the tapered insulation and the fasteners. Not much but a little bit.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt I can't thank you enough for responding to this thread and help guide me along with this. With the proposals being so different I really need to compare apples with apples.

It looks like the company who gave me the new, lower proposal does not know much about the taper iso insulation system.

I asked hm about the tapered system, and he said there is no need because a properly done flat roof will not be a problem. So I asked him, what if I want a tapered insulation system anyway, have you done one and how much more would it be? His reply is to do a tapered roof system they need to build up. From his description, he was thinking of actually building what he calls a "cricket" to create a top layer of decking to provide a slope (which he told me to do that it would at least double the cost), not a tapered iso insulation system. I conclude they have never done one.

His price is half on the first quote. $12000 versus $26000 and he included all fascia in his quote, and additional rotted wood is $3 per foot instead of $6 per foot. That is a big difference!

I wish I can pick and choose parts from the two proposals.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Any time. I enjoy helping people make an informed decision. There is far to many people who get taken for a ride by bad contractors or just being uninformed and making a bad decision. 

I would say stay away from the 2nd guy unless you want to put just a flat roof on. A cricket is what goes behind a chimney, there is crickets in flat roofs but a roof like yours wouldn't have one.

I'm sure you have plenty of people there who install low slope roofs. I would contact a few more. Now you have a good idea what you want it will be more apples to apples.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Another twist!

So today I got another roofer to come and do an estimate.

He recommend I try something new. He said the traditional 2 ply hot mop asphalt system is going to start wearing and blistering in 5 years or so and I will need to start patching here and there.

On a tapered insulation, they do offer that but it's about $10000 more. He said even with a tapered insulation, the roofing membrane is still the same and will wear, tear, blister, crack...

He said I should consider a commercial thermoplastic roof. He showed me this white color vinyl looking 6mil thick membrane (to be honest it kind of look like my shower liner except it's white). It's a single layer applied over the roof deck. The brand I think is GAF and it's called a "TPO"? He claims this is space age stuff and will not crack or leak and can hold a puddle of water under Miami's blazing sun no problems and has a 20 year warranty. He said the sheets come in 5' by 100' rolls and they will run a roll from one end to the other end, and the seams are heat welded together by a robot.

I don't have his estimates yet. But I asked for a quote of the traditional 2 ply system versus his new white thermoplastic membrane.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

http://www.gaf.ca/Roofing/Commercia..._Single_Ply_Membranes/EverGuard_Extreme_Story


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Gaf tpo. Good stuff. Still tapered insulation is the way to go. Yes it will hold up under water most any will but still not a great idea. The 5' wide sheets are for mechanically fastened systems. I would look at fully adhered. The sheets also come in 10 and 12' rolls. Less seams the better.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I should add I dont believe gaf will warranty residental roofs. I asked our rep at one time and I cant recall what he said. With that being said any of the manufacturer s we deal with will not give more then a 10 year warranty with ponding water.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt, I will double check on the warranty on Monday when they send me the quote for the TPO.

While trying to educate myself on the TPO roofs, I did an online search and did some reading and found a discussion on TPO roof's longevity...where you also participated, and it says there are quite a few failures and welded seam pulling apart. Now I am more confused.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> 1985gt, I will double check on the warranty on Monday when they send me the quote for the TPO.
> 
> While trying to educate myself on the TPO roofs, I did an online search and did some reading and found a discussion on TPO roof's longevity...where you also participated, and it says there are quite a few failures and welded seam pulling apart. Now I am more confused.



Tpo, pvc anything with a welded seam can have problems, just like any other roof. This issue become more prominent if the installer hasn't done TPO before. It's very easy to get a cold/false weld with. After the roof is complete we take a probe and check the seams, anyone who doesn't is just asking to have problems. 

And like any other roof material there has been failures. I think TPO has a bad wrap and a lot of contractors bash it. Some manufactures are better then others. We have installed GAF roofs that are over 10 years old and they still look good. We've also had to replace another manufactures roof after 7-8 for material failure. It was not a GAF roof.

There will always be nay sayers about any kind of roofing, heck anything for that matter. And while some manufactures have more problems it always boils down to the installer on if a good roof is put on or not.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Not much activities during the holidays, actually the TPO estimate didn't come in until yesterday. So now I have three estimates in front of me, but can't really compare apples and oranges.

ESTIMATE A: traditional two ply system, 1 ply of 43 pound base sheet anchored to deck, hot asphalt mop 2 plys of fiberglass felt, mop 1 ply modified bitument to fiberglass felt. Total $12000.

ESTIMATE B: similar two ply system, except they use a better thicker felt instead of fiberglass felt, their quote is $16800. There is an option to add tapered iso insulation with an added $6200.

ESTIMATE C: similar two ply system, they said their base sheet is GAF 75#, 2 layers of GAF PLY 4 Fiberglass, then GAF mineral surface cap sheet, that is $17000, to add 2.5" insulation is $23500, they don't do tapered insulation.

ESTIMATE D: TPO without insulation $19500, TPO with 1.5" insulation $22000. No tapered insulation.

I am really struggling to make a decision.

Estimator A called me this morning, have you made a decision. I said not yet, but I am kind of leaning to do the TPO, he said "really, are you sure? Because I can tell you or even show you a few TPO roofs, just go to Walmart on this street and the Home Depot on that street, those are TPOs, they had to be redone within a year, it cracked up. They don't even redo it, they just patched it over the crack, and now it looks like the cabbage patch kids. Our system is tried and true for many years, TPO is a gimmick that doesn't last!"

I wanted to get another estimate on TPO, but couldn't. Seems there are very few who does it for residential. A local search for TPO and many of them told me they are commercial only.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I've seen more PVC cracking failures because of the cold, not really an issue where you live. 

All roof materials will have issues, a lot of people dislike TPO, for some reason everyone thinks it is junk. We've installed a lot of TPO and have not seen any issues in 10 + years of the manufactures we use. I can not comment on how it holds up in Florida, some TPO manufactures have had problems when the membrane is used around solar panels and if it's next to a high rise with low E windows. It will heat of the membrane enough to accelerate wear.

I'm more surprised by the fact not many will use tapered ISO. I would think with as strict as Florida is with roofing a properly sloped structure would be in their codes. 

So Company B was the only one to offer tapered ISO? I would probably pick them. I'd also take Company A out of the picture. Did B or D list a manufacture?


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt, thanks, last couple of days I got in touch with the companies and got more details. So let me re-summarize the estimates.

*ESTIMATE A*
Traditional two ply system, 1 ply of 43 pound base sheet anchored to deck, hot asphalt mop 2 plys of fiberglass felt, mop 1 ply modified bitument to fiberglass felt. Total $12000. In addition they said they will tear off entire existing roof down to deck and renail decking to meet existing code.

*ESTIMATE B*
Similar two ply system, except they use a better thicker felt instead of fiberglass felt, their quote is $16800. There is an option to add tapered ISO insulation with an added $6200. Total $23000 for a tapered ISO system. They told me the brand is GAF.

*ESTIMATE C*
Similar two ply system, they said their base sheet is GAF 75#, 2 layers of GAF PLY 4 Fiberglass, then GAF mineral surface cap sheet, that is $17000, to add 2.5" insulation is $23500, they don't do tapered insulation.

*ESTIMATE D (same company as ESTIMATE C)*
TPO without insulation $19500, TPO with 1.5" insulation $22000. No tapered insulation. They will use .60 mil white TPO and they said they have robots to do the seam welding.

So if I try to just compare the 2 ply system, estimate B and C are in fairly close range, where estimate A is substantially lower, by $4000! All three estimates seem to include similar items, flashing, eave drips, boots, remove all old debris, dump fee, permit fee etc...I then looked up reviews of the company for estimate A, seems good, nothing jumps out.

Now, the day before yesterday, the company who gave me estimate C & D called me to see if I made a decision. I told them not yet, but 4K is a big difference. The rep asked me to give him a day and he will talk to the owner and get back with me. The next day he called and he said he used a "different system" to do the estimate and he was able to match estimate A's two ply system price, but the owner vetoed it. He said basically the reason they are higher is because of their operations side, they must have $4500 of overhead each day for the crew, they must have $5000 overhead for administration etc...and since those numbers are not changeable, they will not be able to get anywhere close to estimate A's $12000.

HOWEVER, he said the TPO is a different story. The TPO they have a larger margin and he might be able to get me a better price then the originally quoted $19500. So today he sent me a revised TPO quote which I will call ESTIMATE E. So estimates C, D, E are from the same company.

ESTIMATE E
1. Remove existing roof to a clean workable surface and dispose of all debris including removal of 1 roof layer, any additional layer removal will be charged at $60 per roofing square.
2. Install GAF .60 mil white TPO to be directly adhered to wood deck as per code.
3. Install 3"x3" white eave drip metal around perimeter of building and seal with GAF Heat Welded cover tape.
4. Install Universal boots, split boots, wall flashings as per manufacturer's specs.
5. System carries a 15 year manufacturer warranty.
6. 10 Year labor and material guarantee from BLAH BLAH BLAH roofing, Inc.

Now the new TPO quote went down from $19500 to $15600, and they said there is a Florida Power and Light rebate of $900 for being a white roof, so the net cost is $14700.

I tried to compare their previous estimate C/D with the new E and the only differences I can see is that previously the contract said remove all roofing layers down to the deck. Now it says remove down to a "clean workable surface". Does it mean they may not strip it down to the deck?

Bear in mind I have rotted rafters that need to be repaired...which is at additional cost, so I do need to strip all the way down to the wood deck. 

Also it says it covers only removal of ONE roofing layer, additional layer at additional cost. What does it mean one roofing layer, does it mean "ONE PLY"? Can I tell how many layers I have? I assume if a repair was done by patching, I could have more than 1 layer but not all the way across, may be each patched area could be two layers? I am just a bit concerned that they may end up charging me for additional roofing layers that I can't tell if it's there or not.

So one key question I have is, I think it is important to apply the TPO over the wood deck and not old roof right?

Finally, I wanted to also summarize their respective comments on each roofing system.

Company A told me TPO leaks all the time and he can show me a nearby Walmart and Home Depot that needed a total redo within 2 years.

Company B told me they do not believe in TPO either. They said the reason they don't do TPO is the same reason they don't do elastomeric roof painting. He said all TPO is, is an extra thick layer of this plastic over the roof, which in theory is good, but it traps all the moisture below it. A 2 ply system will "breath" he said. If the TPO ever develops a crack, and he said it will, and the crack is too small to seen, covered by debris, water will get under it and have no where to go, it will not be able to dry off, it will be trapped under it and cause wood rot and by the time you noticed it will be too late. The warranty will cover the TPO crack, they just weld another small piece over it, that's all. But the wood rot that developed below the crack will not be addressed by the TPO manufacturer. You the home owner has to fix it, but you can't cut a big opening and hire your own carpenter to fix the rot, you are stuck with the TPO contractor because you can't risk voiding the warranty.

Company C, who gave me the 2 PLY estimate, and two TPO estimates, once he knew his own 2 ply system is overpriced, he started pushing the TPO system and told me the 2 PLY system is no good. I asked why? They said the 2 ply system has a 10 year warranty, but the warranty is only good if it does not hold water. He said all flat roof hold water, and hence the warranty is basically no good. So basically he shot down his own 2 PLY system.:laughing:

I think I need a beer.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

One other thing is how important is the clause in company A's estimate which stated "...will tear off entire existing roof down to deck and renail decking to meet existing code."?

Is it possible that other estimates that didn't mention that, I will have the city come out and say renail old decks and new decks to today's code and they tell me that's going to be $2000 extra?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow! 

Estimate A. That's actually a 3 ply system. 2 felts and a cap sheet. The base doesn't count as it is a protective layer and slip sheet.

Estimate B. I still like this one, Tapered insulation...

I'll move to Estimate E. Blah, while it's ok to install single plys over a plywood deck, the decking needs to be screwed down so there is no nail pops. We almost always install a coverboard as the protective layer, any time we don't is on new construction after the builder has screwed the decking to the rafters. 

I would go with who ever installed tapered insulation at this point, as long as they have the references to back up their work. 

- one layer tear off at least to us is one roof, so if you have a roof directly on the roof deck then a layer of insulation then another roof it is two. Or if we can tell through a _*test cut*_ there there is 6 plys of roofing material that would be two roofs also. Notice what I did with the Test cut? Does no one do these any more?



> Company A told me TPO leaks all the time and he can show me a nearby Walmart and Home Depot that needed a total redo within 2 years.
> 
> Company B told me they do not believe in TPO either. They said the reason they don't do TPO is the same reason they don't do elastomeric roof painting. He said all TPO is, is an extra thick layer of this plastic over the roof, which in theory is good, but it traps all the moisture below it. A 2 ply system will "breath" he said. If the TPO ever develops a crack, and he said it will, and the crack is too small to seen, covered by debris, water will get under it and have no where to go, it will not be able to dry off, it will be trapped under it and cause wood rot and by the time you noticed it will be too late. The warranty will cover the TPO crack, they just weld another small piece over it, that's all. But the wood rot that developed below the crack will not be addressed by the TPO manufacturer. You the home owner has to fix it, but you can't cut a big opening and hire your own carpenter to fix the rot, you are stuck with the TPO contractor because you can't risk voiding the warranty.


So much misinformation, TPO may not be a cadilac but it is a viable roof option, but an asphalt based roof system is better IMO, but we install 100-1,000 squares of TPO a year, depending on a lot of factors. We wouldn't install it if we didn't believe in it. Also A asphalt roof doesn't breath any more or less then a TPO roof, or EPDM for that matter. As far as warranties go, unless its PVC IB or Flex systems then the warranty is a contractor warranty, you are stuck with the contractor to fix it either way, GAF offers a residential warranty on their self adhered sheets only as far as I know, even then it's also a material only warranty. 



> Company C, who gave me the 2 PLY estimate, and two TPO estimates, once he knew his own 2 ply system is overpriced, he started pushing the TPO system and told me the 2 PLY system is no good. I asked why? They said the 2 ply system has a 10 year warranty, but the warranty is only good if it does not hold water. He said all flat roof hold water, and hence the warranty is basically no good. So basically he shot down his own 2 PLY system.


Again as a contractors warranty it doesn't matter, for the record on commercial buildings they will honer a 10 year with some ponding, 20 and above has to have positive drainage. And no not all "flat" roofs hold water.



> I think I need a beer.


Have two or three you have earned them!



> One other thing is how important is the clause in company A's estimate which stated "...will tear off entire existing roof down to deck and renail decking to meet existing code."?
> 
> Is it possible that other estimates that didn't mention that, I will have the city come out and say renail old decks and new decks to today's code and they tell me that's going to be $2000 extra?


I do not know the codes down there but I think that any reroof that has a permit has to be nailed in a certain pattern. Should be easy enough to find out over the internet, and if the contractor doesn't do it the roof wouldn't pass the inspection. Something to due with hurricanes or something :innocent:

Ok now I need a beer!


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Wow!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have two or three you have earned them! :thumbsup:


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Well 1985gt thanks for the explanation.

The more they shot each other down with information mixed with misinformation the harder it is for me to trust them.

I think you should fly out here to miami and put on my roof, it must be freezing in Nebraska and I am wearing shorts today, and I have bikini models serve coronas and pina colodas with bacon wrapped ribeye steaks on the roof!


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> Well 1985gt thanks for the explanation.
> 
> The more they shot each other down with information mixed with misinformation the harder it is for me to trust them.
> 
> ...



13 Degs right now, with a 14 MPH wind. I wish I could, I miss shorts. The wife might have a problem with the bikini models, enough pina colodas and she wouldn't mind as much. :thumbsup: Plus something tells me that Bikini models, cononas and bacon wrapped ribeyes would kill any of the production you would get out of me. :laughing:


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt said:


> Wow!
> I'll move to Estimate E. Blah, while it's ok to install single plys over a plywood deck, the decking needs to be screwed down so there is no nail pops. We almost always install a coverboard as the protective layer, any time we don't is on new construction after the builder has screwed the decking to the rafters.


Over the weekend I took a ladder and got up there to remove some fascia so I can peek into the underside of the decking and my roof deck is not plywood sheets but tongue and groove planks that looks like 1Xs.

I can see TPO can easily be punctured by nail pops. I would assume a screw down of the planks would be very labor intensive. I will check with the building department if they have any requirement for a roof deck screw down or not. From the proposal I do not see any coverboard.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

miamicuse said:


> Over the weekend I took a ladder and got up there to remove some fascia so I can peek into the underside of the decking and my roof deck is not plywood sheets but tongue and groove planks that looks like 1Xs.
> 
> I can see TPO can easily be punctured by nail pops. I would assume a screw down of the planks would be very labor intensive. I will check with the building department if they have any requirement for a roof deck screw down or not. From the proposal I do not see any coverboard.


Generally 1X decking does not rot as much as plywood, so you may get lucky there. When plywood get's wet it spreads easy, generally with 1X's the wetness wont jump boards, or if it does its not as bad.

I'm pretty sure I've seen posts about reroofing in florida and having to renail/add more nails to the decking. I want to say even having to use ring shank nails. I would think that would be any residential not just shingles. Definitely check with the local code enforcement.


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