# First new roof ... totally confused



## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Are these all tear-off quotes?

can you post a photo of the current roof?

can you post a photo of the insulation conditon?

what part of the country?


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

redline said:


> Are these all tear-off quotes?
> 
> can you post a photo of the current roof?
> 
> ...


All very good questions that I should have included in my post.

I can get pics this weekend of the roof. It isn't terrible, but you'll see the curling. 

All these quotes include tear off, 15# felt, weather barrier. There is 1 skylight to roof around.

I live in Michigan.


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

How large is your house? How many square? How many layers? 

Going to the attic to check for leaks is the best way to determine if a roof needs replaced. Timberline are good shingles and 30 yrs are more than adequate. I would make sure the cost not only includes tear off, felt and new shingles, but also possible repair on sheathing and new drip edge and gutter apron as well as vents. These are all things we did on every roof unless the HO insisted that we not do them.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Most shingles have greater than 9 years on their warranty. Can you check to see if your roof is still under warranty?

More insulation in the ceiling does not create more heat and require additional vents but it could block the existing soffit vents. 

If your current soffit vents are blocked by the insulation then you need them unblocked and there are various spacing devices available that can be inserted to keep the soffit vent air flow path open. I wouldn't add more vents somewhere else to try to compensate for blocked soffit vents - you want the natural low to high draft that results from the soffit/ridge vent combination.

Did any of them tell you how many sq ft of soffit vent and ridge vent you currently have and how many are recomended?

I don't think you got widely varying recomendations. All agreed you needed a new roof (no surprise since they install them); one mentioned it might last 2-4 years before it leaked which to me is the same thing as saying you need a new roof. 

The only variation was in venting recomendation. Unfortunately, many roofers tend to automatically go with the amount of venting that is already there instead of calculating whether it is sufficient. The one recomended improving the venting and the curled shingles at 9 years might very well indicate this to be true. Did he indicate whether the soffit venting was blocked and did he recoment the additional vents because he felt that the soffit vent path couldn't be opened back up?

Don't let the price variation confuse you. Some people simply charge more than others depending on their business skills, overhead and hunger level. But do make sure you know exactly what is covered in the contract and check out their work quality by looking at other jobs they have done and talking to those homeowners.

Don't hire the cheapest because he is cheapest. Do hire him if you've checked out his work and it is as good as or better than the rest. Don't hire the most expensive thinking that will get you a better roof unless you've actually verified that to be true.

Ask the next contractors detailed questions about how they determined how much venting is needed, what they think caused the roof failure and how they determined whether the soffit vents were working or blocked.


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

cibula11 said:


> How large is your house? How many square? How many layers?
> 
> Going to the attic to check for leaks is the best way to determine if a roof needs replaced. Timberline are good shingles and 30 yrs are more than adequate. I would make sure the cost not only includes tear off, felt and new shingles, but also possible repair on sheathing and new drip edge and gutter apron as well as vents. These are all things we did on every roof unless the HO insisted that we not do them.


The house was built in 1998, so the roof is 9 years old. It is 1500 sq. feet (ranch) and also includes a 2 1/2 car garage. Only a single layer. I am sorry, I didn't know what all to include in the info, all quotes included tear off and removal, new weather barrier, aluminum drip edge, 15# felt and shingles. They all layed out costs for replacement wood that was within the ballpark of eachother. None mentioned anything about a gutter apron, and only the one place mentioned any venting other than the ridge.


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

jogr said:


> Most shingles have greater than 9 years on their warranty. Can you check to see if your roof is still under warranty?
> 
> More insulation in the ceiling does not create more heat and require additional vents but it could block the existing soffit vents.
> 
> ...


From what the house inspector said when we bought this place and the roofing fella that went into the attic, the blown in insulation has baffles and those did a great job keeping the insulation out of the soffits, so they are clear. Nobody has told us how much sq. ft. of venting we have. They have taken measurements, asked a couple questions and handed me an estimate. 

I think you hit the nail on the head for my confusion...the prices are all over the board. Using the same materials I have estimates of $4600 and $8000. From what I have been told, both companies are well regarded, so it makes me wonder what the difference is (do they pay more for better skilled labor, etc.)?

I really welcome all the questions and advice I have received so far. Keep it comming!! :thumbup:


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

*Some Pics*

As asked for above, I took some pics today...I'll try to explain what each one is:

*Basic shot of the roofline*









*A shot of the curling shingles*










*Soffit Venting*









*Attic insulation/Baffles*


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

1st off, only 25 % of your soffit panels are vented to begin with. That blown in wool like insulation has probably clogged up the intake perforations in the ones that you do have.

Here is an excerpt for an article I wrote earlier this year. If you find this partially informative, I will add the link to the blog for the full version with the live hyper-links included, so that you can check out the sources from the horses mouth, so to speak.

P.S. 
You should consider switching to a 100 % intake ventilation system, such as the Smart Vent from DCI Products. There are many threads and individual posts about it here in this roofing forum if you search for information and links about it.

Ed

*But All Of The Other Guys Said!!!!!*​ 
I hear this more often than you would believe. You know what the most frustrating thing about that phrase is? 

In practically every single instance, the “Other Guys” either did not really know what they were talking about, or even worse, they knew the right thing to recommend, but took the “Low Road” and did not advise you, the Home Owner about the implications of not doing your roofing project precisely as the manufacturer specified.

You might think to yourselves; The “Other Guy” seemed like he knew what he was talking about though. Ed, what makes your opinion any better or more valid than his? Aren’t you both just out here to try to sell me a roof and make as much profit on the job as possible?

Here is what I say to that; There obviously is some truth to the fact that a reputable company serving this area for over 23 Years under the same name and ownership needs to remain profitable to remain in existence. Yes, I spend a great deal of time with every single Home Owner I make a detailed presentation to, so; Yes, I would like you to understand the value in a quality, properly done roofing system as compared to over 90 % of all roofs done, which do not even meet the “Minimum” standards and specifications. 

Before I begin to ramble on endlessly, and bore you with any self promotion, you may feel concerned enough to read through the following short portions of just a few of the research links I have provided, so you could receive a totally unbiased, neutral and objective opinion on some of the subjects that seem to be in conflict from one contractor to another.

If your investment in the future of your home is important enough to you, please feel free to inquire with as much vigor and depth as possible to arrive at the safest conclusion. 


The following resources are all referenced as to author and web-site URL links for further analysis if you so desire. If you would prefer this document to be e-mailed to your attention, so you do not have to type in and search for the web sites, please request an e-mail version and I will gladly comply.


*When you get done reading through the information; Please ask yourself the following question:* ​ 
*Who was the one who really gave me all of the correct advice, details and specifications to ensure my new roof and theoretical warranty plus my homes interior were not being placed in jeopardy?*​ 

*Was it Ed, from Right Way Roofing Company? *
*Or, was it “the Other Guy”?*​ 
I hope you appreciate the following information. Happy Reading!​ 

http://www.bobandrodman.com/roofing.html

This is one of the best articles I have ever read about roofing specs being followed and “How to choose a good roofer”.

*But over the years I have learned to spot good roofers* by asking a few questions and identifying a number of indicators that seem to reveal what they really know about their trade and what kind of job they are likely to do. *What I am looking for are those rare individuals who take pride in their work. They keep up with advances in materials and techniques. They make it a point to take to take questions to manufacturer’s technical representatives. They’re responsive to the concerns of their customers. And they are glad to take as much time necessary to explain things clearly.*
*Roofing isn't rocket science. But the average homeowner is not really familiar with the ins and outs of roofing so they have little choice but to depend on whomever they choose to do the work.* This is a trust professionals take seriously. *It is not enough that they are concerned and personable – they must also have sufficient resources of experience and knowledge to insure that their professional obligation is discharged to the homeowner’s advantage. That's why professionals are easy to spot. If you feel educated, as well as comfortable after your visit with a roofer, and the other criteria outlined below are satisfied, then you are as assured as possible that your job will meet your expectations.*
*another excerpt: From GAF*

*It is estimated that 9 out of 10 homes in North America do not have proper attic ventilation.*

_*another: From Alcoa*_
*Experts say inadequate intake ventilation causes 95% of all ventilation problems and will typically void the shingle warranty.*

*another:*
*Calculating how much venting your attic needs is relatively simple.*
All you need to know is the area of the attic floor. Include the garage, if you have one and the soffit overhang because heat gets trapped above them, too.

*To properly ventilate an attic, two types of vents are needed. Intake vents, *which are located at the down slope edge of the roof (a.k.a. eaves) and allow fresh air into the attic; *and exhaust vents,* which are located near or on the ridge line of the roof and allow air to leave the attic.

_*another:*_
*IS VENTILATION REALLY THAT IMPORTANT?*

Deck movement and deterioration are commonly the results of poor ventilation. In the summer, too much heat buildup due to a poorly ventilated "flat ceiling" attic can cause the shingles to deteriorate prematurely. In the winter, deck-related problems are often due to condensation forming on the deck underside, which is also a result of poor ventilation. *It is important to understand that shingles failing before their time due to inadequate ventilation will not be protected by the manufacturer's warranty.*

_*another:*_
While manufacturers warranties will vary in terms of what is and is not covered and for how long, most offer reasonable value and protection for the end user. *However, it is important to realize that should the product be installed improperly, even the best warranties on the highest quality materials may be rendered void and useless. The manufacturer has a right to expect that their product is aligned, lapped and fastened to meet their minimum requirements, otherwise their product will not perform as designed and the warranty will become invalid.*

_*another:*_
*Roofing is number 1 Construction Defect.*
Construction Defect Problem Areas: Cause & Effect. 

Taking a forensic view, or a backward pass, through a statistically significant sampling of Construction Defects (CDs) in order to determine the root cause & effect, we have categorized the most prevalent CD’s into a Top 10 List as follows: 

Roofing 
Sheet Metal Flashings
I hope that I have not gone overboard with the information supplied. I am passionate about providing the absolute best roofing materials and the best service as possible. Therefore, even though this may seem mundane and obsessive over-kill to you right now, you can at least get a better sense of how I feel about doing your roof on your home, the Right Way. When your home is taken care of with such passion, you will be proud and glad you chose to do things the Right Way after all.

Respectfully,

*Ed *(Aka, Ed the Roofer)


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Also, where in Michigan are you located. I know about a half dozen real good contractors from that state. If you want, e-mail me your information and I wll have some of them contact you.

Here is the link to the entire blog:
http://rightwayroofing.wordpress.com/


Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks for the response Ed. Planning to read the full article tonight. In the meantime, I sent you an email. Now that I think about it, I didn't explain that the message concerned this post. Ooops, been a long day keeping a sick 18 month old happy 

Thanks again.


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## Handyman50 (Sep 28, 2007)

I live in the Pacific Northwest. I recently had my roof replaced. My home is 1,350 sq. ft with a single car garage. It took approximately 25 square of roofing. They removed one layer of roofing and hauled it to the dump, replaced all of the roof vents, flashing, ice fabric and repaired the sheathing in three places. The sheathing was old and the glue simply broke down. They used Owens Corning, Oakridge, Pro30 shingles. These are of the architectural variety. It took a crew of four 1-1/2 days. The total cost was $4,950. I had bids up to $6,300. The job is superb.

I have done allot of roofing myself. So, I know what should be done. Age makes you do things differently.

My suggestion is get a list of customers of each of the contractors. Some who recently had the roof done and some that go back several years. At least, do a drive-by of the majority. You should also talk to several of them. If the contractor has a problem with you talking to them on your own, have him go with you. This is not my preference, but if that is the best you can do, take it. This is the best way to find a good contractor, IMHO. You also want to assure that he has insurance and is bonded.

A friend told me about the contractor that I used. He had done his due diligence and I trusted his judgment. He was correct.

From looking at your roof, I have to say that the shingles don't look that bad. Of course, I can't tell how much sand (grit) is remaining. Your main problem is the possibility of wind damage. When the shingles begin to curl as yours are doing, it leaves room for the wind to get under and tear them off of the house. The curling in many cases is caused by the fact that they never did seal correctly in the beginning. They should be installed when the weather is hot enough to seal them within the first few days. In my case, the first shingles installed were beginning to seal before the job was complete. The temps were in the high 90's. Bad ventilation is the main cause of curling, however.

I hope this helps. I know how frustrating it is to find a good contractor. I am impressed by the information provided by Ed. He sounds like the type of contractor that I used. He was extremely detail oriented.

Good luck!


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

adawg said:


> Thanks for the response Ed. Planning to read the full article tonight. In the meantime, I sent you an email. *Now that I think about it, I didn't explain that the message concerned this post.* Ooops, been a long day keeping a sick 18 month old happy
> 
> Thanks again.


 
I realized who it was from.

I sent out a message to the Michigan roofers I am in contact with and will see if anyone is located nearby.

Ed


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I've seen old roofs curl under and lift, as they reached the end of their life, never saw one lift up at the edges. Maybe the roofers can chime in and give their take on the cause. If the shingles were defective, then you can just reroof. But if the cause was poor ventilation that caused major heat buildup or something else, you need to address the cause or the next roof will also fail prematurely.
Ron


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

From the photos attached, I am suspecting inadequate intake ventilation and also possibly clogged ventilation perforations on the aluminum soffit panels.

Intake ventilation is the more important factor in the balanced ventilation equation. This is where almost every roofing contractor and homeowner err in installing the new roof. They do not view the entire roofing system and all of its necessary components, therefore shortchanging the life cycle of the new roofing products installed. 

Why does this occur?
Because most contractors and homeowners are too concerned about the "Bid" price rather than the life of the installation.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Here is another question for everyone: How common is it for roofers to not show up for an estimate? I have had this happen twice now. And, the place that did not come Sunday was highly spoken of by family. Is this common? It makes me leary - if they don't show up to try and get the job, what is going to happen once they do get it. I will call tomorrow to see what happened, but geez, I can't imagine times are that good around here...


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I contacted a guy I know from another forum, but I need you to e-mail me your address and home phone, and work or cell phone number so he can contact you now.

His comments are pretty well respected, but since I do not live near him, I can not do anything except for connect the 2 of you together and then you can make up your own minds.

BTW, I did not request nor would accept any kind of referral fee/commission, if it ever came up in future conversations, from this individual, just in case that thought were to come up.

As far as the not showing up...Well, your Lions kicked our Bears butts on Sunday. Too bad somebody even made an appointment for a Sunday. That should be a day to spend with family and be the highest priority anyone could have.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks, Ed. Sent ya an email.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I passed it on. His name is Craig and I believe he is out of Ann Arbor, MI.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Another random question, per a quote I received today, the roofer called for mineral sheet in valleys with closed construction. If I were to upgrade to the 50 year shingles, they will use metal valleys. What is the difference.

Also, he uses Tamko and Certainteed. Are both a quality product?

Sorry for my ineptitude...


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Firstly, Tamko and then Certainteed are my primary 2 offerings. I have been very comfortable with both products for years.

The Tamko Heritage line has some very good colors and so does the Certainteed Landmark line of shingles.

Next, it depends on what he is referring to, as a "mineral sheet" in the valley. I have never heard of that described that way, unless he is referring to a 90# granulated roll roofing product, which is total crap. Possibly he is referring to a mineral or granulated surfaced version of an ice and water shield product. I don't like the silica sand surfaced versions and only stck with the premium brand of Grace Ice and Water Shield.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Sorry, yes, it says 90# mineral sheet in valley areas with closed construction. 

I wasn't around to ask questions, so I will definitely need to follow up with him on the phone. They did spec Grace Ice and Water Shield (6 feet) for eaves edges, 3 feet for my skylight and and all roof penetrations...


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

also some" siding contractors" will install vented soffit panels w/out cutting the required holes for venting:wink: which from your pics would be my guess,also organic shingles will react like that,be sure to have fiberglass based shingles used :thumbsup:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

have ice +water shield laid in the valleys 1st,then either close weave the valleys,or install a metal valley(open),either will serve you well if installed correctly--craig will explain these things to you further :thumbsup:


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Well, I figured out my venting/heat issue. I went up in the attic finally and was surprised by what I saw. the soffits are completely open, with baffles. I have gable vents that need closed, but not until I have a ridge vent. Turns out the builder's ridge vent consisted of looping felt over the ridge and nailing ridge shingles on top. There is ZERO vent space on the ridge, so there is no where (other than the gable) for the air to go.

Also, on the positive side, I think I found a roofer. He is very patient, knowledgeable and as I found out at a builder's show today, very well liked by his customers. While I was there talking to him (he had been out earlier to quote the job) we had 4 customers come out and thank him and invite me over to look at the job he did on their roofs...all by happenstance.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

adawg said:


> we had 4 customers come out and thank him and invite me over to look at the job he did on their roofs...all by happenstance.


Just make sure that they don't all have the same last name as the roofing contractor.

That seems highly unlikely to have happened in my opinion.

Do these same 4 "customers happen to show up at his booth at the home show whenever someone stops by and expresses an interest in the contractor services?

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

:laughing:


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Just make sure that they don't all have the same last name as the roofing contractor.
> 
> That seems highly unlikely to have happened in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Wow, Ed! Is that how they do things out there in Chicago?  Naw, this was completely random. They also did the roof of a guy at the end of my street I found out, and he really liked them - so much so that they are now doing the roof on his dad's house. I'm pretty happy with this guy. 

On a side note, I had a guy come out and he told me that he could get me a 30 year warranty through Certainteed on a 30 year shingle if he used all Certainteed products (ridge, ice and water, etc.). THe guy I like says he never heard of such a thing and pointed me to the warranty handout from Certainteed saying 5* is 15 years on a 30-year shingle. He offered me that coverage for the quoted price. Any idea what the other guy was talking about? I heard him clear as day say 30 years...strange.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Certainteed Select Shinglers have the capability of offering a lengthier warranty but there is also an additional fee attached to that job.

I sort of did not undestand your question though, with the 

*5* is 15 years on a 30 year roof.* *Huh??*

A 30 year warranty, otherwise would be pro-rated after an initial Sure Start Warranty period, which varies dependant upon which shingle is chosen. The 
sure Start Warranty period is for 100 % material cost, without being pro-rated.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Certainteed Select Shinglers have the capability of offering a lengthier warranty but there is also an additional fee attached to that job.
> 
> I sort of did not undestand your question though, with the
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, that is what I meant. If I go for the 5-star surestart on a 30-year shingles it gets me 15 years of coverage. This other guy said he could get me a Certainteed warranty that was for 30 years on a 30 year shingle. I don't see that as an option from the company. Ever heard of that?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

There is a "Sure Start" and a "Sure Start Plus" warranty available if the contractor is one of their program certified contractors.

You can find out more by visiting:

www.Certainteed.com

Here is a link to the warranty also:

http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonl...AE0D-47118F36BD12/0/2006SureStartWarranty.pdf


Ed

Here is the "Sure Start Plus" warranty information:

SureStartTM PLUS
In order to qualify for SureStartTM PLUS extended warranty coverage, the roof system must be installed by a contractor with an up-to-date ShingleMasterTM or SELECT Shingle RooferTM credential, and must meet Integrity Roof SystemTM requirements.

ShingleMasters can offer 3-Star and 4-Star Coverage. SELECT Shingle Roofers can offer all three levels of SureStart PLUS.

For a list of ShingleMasters and SELECT Shingle Roofers in your area, click here.


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Ok, thanks, Ed. That is what I thought the case was. The guy I think I will likely go with would not lower his price, but will provide me with the 5-star coverage. They have their Select level, and some are at the Wizard level, whatever that means.

Thanks again for all the help over the last couple weeks. It is much appreciated!


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

No problem. I am glad you found a good and qualified contractor to work with who took the extra time to learn more about his craft.

If he is interested, please inform him of the;

www.contractortalk.com site for additional sharing of business and trade information and best practices.

Would you please also keep us informed as to how the project goes once he starts working on it.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

One last question, does Tamko offer an upgrade warranty for their shingles? The roofer we like offered us our choice of Certainteed Landmark or Tamko Heritage shingles. He also brought up the 5-star Certainteed warranty for 15 years, but we never really talked about Tamko. Now going through the brochures, we are found of a couple Tamko colors. Do they have a similar 15-year extended warranty plan?

Many thanks!


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## Handyman50 (Sep 28, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Why does this occur?
> Because most contractors and homeowners are too concerned about the "Bid" price rather than the life of the installation.
> 
> Ed


It occurs in most cases, Ed, because the folks who are replacing the roof or doing another repair, are strapped for money. They simply don't have a concept of how much that it costs to maintain a house when they buy it. They over-extend on the payment and then have no money to do maintenance.

I actually went with the lowest "BID". However, it simply came out in my favor. I knew that the contractor would do a great job. He simply came in with the lowest bid. Why would I pay more? 

One other point. Sometimes the highest bid is a contractor who does not want to do the job. He already has more work than he can handle. He plays the game so he doesn't upset the homeowner; knowing upfront that he won't get the bid. If he does by chance, then it is worth his time to take the job. He can hire extra help for the one job.

I do understand what you are saying, however. I am in the process right now of redoing repairs that were done by the lowest bidder, I am certain.:yes:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

OR PEOPLE DON`T REALISE WHAT`S NECESSARY FOR A PROPER ROOF INSTALLATION,AND THEY CHEAT THE SPECS,DON`T CARRY THE PROPER INSURANCE,DON`T HAVE THE NECESSARY EXPERIENCE ,ETC.---IT`S REALLY A MATTER OF PAY NOW OR PAY LATER---IT`S VERY POSSIBLE TO HAVE A WELL MEANING ROOFER WHO DOES THE BEST JOB HE KNOWS HOW TO,AND DOESN`T FULLY KNOW WHY THINGS ARE DONE IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS,BECAUSE SOMEON TAUGHT HIM DIFFERENT AND/OR HE WASN`T THE GUY WHO WENT OUT ON THE REPAIR CALLS:whistling2:


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## johnnyboy (Oct 8, 2007)

if there's one thing in your house you don't skimp on... it should be your roof, I mean it protects EVERYTHING else below it!

Get an Amish crew estimate, they did my 25 squares at I believe $5300, full tear off included (northern ohio). Nobody could have done a better job, it looks great.

commercial roofers don't like them because they can't compete with the price/quality ratio of everyone else, as they have less overhead.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Also, from what I have heard, they do not have to pay taxes, because it goes directly to their faith.

I may br wrong about that, but there seems to be alot of evidence pointing that way.

So, just like hiring illegal immigrants to put Americans out of work, pay somebody who does not support the US tax system and carry their own share of the burden.

I hope that you use Chinese Tooth Paste to shine up that smirk on your face right now.

Did you get a certificate of Workmans Compensation Insurance from them?

What about a Certificate of General Liability Insurance?

I have heard that they provide good old fashioned craftsmanship, but I would not support them as opposed to another "Professional" Contractor, if they are not providing all of the same ancillary benefits required to provide the proper "Roofing System".

That is the problem with most home owners perception of a good job. It looks good the day they are done, but what about the proper balanced intake and exhaust ventilation? 

How will the roof look like in 12 years, let alone the 30 that it typically should be warranted for?

Granted, their are an overwhelming amount of "So-Called Professionals" out there too, and the majority of them are hacks. 

Choose the Right Contractor who will do you justice by anticipating and providing exemplary service and out spec the "Minimum" standards, which so many others fail to meet. You do not know that until it is too late, though, do you?

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

OR PEOPLE DON`T REALISE WHAT`S NECESSARY FOR A PROPER ROOF INSTALLATION,AND THEY CHEAT THE SPECS,DON`T CARRY THE PROPER INSURANCE,DON`T HAVE THE NECESSARY EXPERIENCE ,ETC.---IT`S REALLY A MATTER OF PAY NOW OR PAY LATER---if there's one thing in your house you don't skimp on... it should be your roof, I mean it protects EVERYTHING else below it!----THE 1ST C+P DESCRIBES HIRING THE CREW HE DESCRIBES,AND HIS 1ST LINE IS ACCURATE BUT THEN HE SAYS IT LOOKS GREAT--LOOKS GREAT FROM MY HOUSE TOO--WHEN YOURS LEAKS BECAUSE THE IMPORTANT STUFF MAY HAVE BEEN SKIMPED ON,AND AMERICANS WHO PAY INTO THE SYSTEM,AND HAVE THE PROPER CREDENTIALS ARE SCREWED OVER BY PEOPLE WHO DON`T FOLLOW THE SAME GUIDELINES OR PAY THEIR DUES TO THE AMERICAN SYSTEM---ED IS 100% RIGHT ON THIS--FOOLISHNESS IS IT`S OWN REWARD


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

After reading that one, I am just imagining all sorts of things from the post you deleted. :laughing: 

By the way, do you know if I am correct about the Amish not having to pay taxes?

I ask this, because when I used to travel around the Mid-West doing Duro-Last roofs on restaurants years ago, many Wisconsin Contractors found them to be the bane of the contracting business, because they were capable of setting the bar so low, due to that tax issue.

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

around here it`s the hasidem al claiming to be rabbi`s and getting the religious exclusion,sounds like the same thing to me


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

*Amish: We're Already In Good Hands! *

*Religious Group Objects To Being Forced To Buy Insurance*


Although businessman Atlee Kaufman pays the state about $4,000 a year in workers' compensation premiums for his furniture parts store, he says he'll never make a claim. It's against his beliefs. 

He and other members of the Amish religious group believe in taking care of one's own liabilities and that filing an insurance claim goes against Biblical principles of trusting in God. 

*"If we don't use it, why should we pay it?"* asks Kaufman, 52, owner of 77 Coach Supply in Mount Hope, about 35 miles southeast of Akron. 

*Ohio lawmakers are finally listening. The state, like others with large Amish or Mennonite populations, is set to exempt members of religious sects from paying insurance premiums if it goes against their principles.* 

The Amish in Ohio, which number about 51,000, have sought the provision for at least a decade. It requires groups to have been a recognized religion since December 1950 and to have had a church program to cover members' insurance needs for "a substantial" number of years. 

Both the state's House and the Senate have approved a bill with the new provision as part of the Bureau of Workers' Compensation two-year budget. Gov. Bob Taft is expected to sign it into law, said spokesman Orest Holubec. 

*Twenty-five of Kaufman's 28 employees at his 22-year-old business are Amish.* He pays into a separate church aid fund to cover the cost of accidents, a practice followed by other Amish and Mennonite businesses. 

The Amish and Mennonites both come from the Anabaptist religious tradition. The Amish dress simply, shun most technology and travel country roads in distinctive black buggies. 

Mennonites often also dress simply but represent a broader range of beliefs. They are known for emphasizing a simple lifestyle and an opposition to war and, sometimes, military service. 

Paul Gaus, a College of Wooster chemistry professor and author of three mystery novels about the Amish, said the Amish believe that taking out insurance "is really second-guessing God's will in your life." 

"It's also regarded as a colossal waste of money," Gaus added. "These are very frugal people for the most part." 

Other states with Amish or Mennonite populations vary in their practice. 

*Kentucky and Pennsylvania have similar exemption for employees of a "recognized religious sect."* However, neither Michigan nor Indiana allow groups to seek such exemptions. Indiana lawmakers have struggled for years over whether to grant the exemption, said Sandy Fralich, a spokeswoman for the state Workers Compensation Board. 

*One issue "is the unfair advantage it gives the people that are exempt, because they're competing with people who have to buy insurance,"* Fralich said. "The other issue is secular versus non-secular, with the government trying to regulate something with someone's religion." 

*Some Ohio contractors oppose the measure on the same grounds. *

*"This option for some contractors is unfair, and unconstitutional as a violation of separation of church and state,"* Luther Liggett, an attorney representing the National Electrical Contractors' Association, said in a letter to the Senate Insurance Committee. 

Contractors raised the same concerns last year over a provision that would have exempted religious groups from a requirement that commercial tradespeople, such as electricians or plumbers, carry liability insurance. That legislation died in committee. 

Andy Raber, a spokesman for the Amish in Ohio, said his community's businesses bear a number of costs that others don't, such as hiring drivers to take them to work sites.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

:furious:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

johnnyboy said:


> commercial roofers don't like them because they can't compete with the price/quality ratio of everyone else, as they have less overhead.


Ditto on that Doc.

That was exactly my point.

What if I never had to use my liability or workers compensation insurance?

Shouldn't I then feel justified to say that I too do not want to be burdened with those expenses?

Also, I vehemently disagree with the comparison that I, as a professional contractor, could not compete on the "Quality" issue.

Ed


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Wow, has this ever veered way off topic!   

Back to the last question, does Tamko offer any extended warranty options similar to the Cetrainteed 5-star surestart plan?

Thanks! :thumbup:


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Lamarite Composite Shingles -- Laminated composite shingles carry a 50 year limited warranty and a warranty referred to as a 7 Year Full Start. The 7 Year Full Start covers any manufacturer defect within the first 7 years, replacement of materials and labor included. The 50 year limited warranty covers the material replacement of shingles except in cases of improper installation, lack of routine maintenance, such as the buildup of moss, leaves, needles or infestation. There is a limited transferability of the warranty. The transfer of warranty is only effective within the first 2 years of the warranty period. These shingles also carry a 5 year limited liability (materials only) against wind damage from wind up to 90 mph.
Metalworks Steel Shingles -- Metal shingles carry the same 50 year limited warranty.
Heritage Laminated Asphalt Shingles -- Tanko offers several laminated asphalt shingle products. Some of the shingles are treated with an algae-relief product. These shingles carry an "AR" designation. The lines of shingles either offer a 50 year limited warranty, or a 30 year limited warranty. Shingles made to be algae resistant (AR) carry a 10-year limited algae relief warranty which covers material replacement for manufacturers defect during the first 10 years.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

I don`t think so,but if the roof is installed correctly,you would never need it !!!---Once again I agree wholeheartedly w/Ed(+Doc :wink: )


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Ed, TRG, You will always find yourself at a decided disadvantage when you are competing against unfair trade practices. It's bad enough that you can't compete with liars, cheats, jack rabbit roofers, and those whose very presence in the profession is suspect. When you find yourself competing against those that do good work at lower cost because of the shelter of law...Well, thats a slap in the face. It's like a subsidy, a real wind fall for them!


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

There are only 2 instances in my 24 years of being a roofing contractor where I was "forced" to contact the manufacturer for a warranty claim from a job that we did.

Both instances were really not a warranty problem and neither had any leak problems as well.

One customer did not feel that the color was the same as was shown in the brochures and the sample boards and a taround 10:00 a.m. they did not like the way the color looked. It was acceptable in the later afternoon hours when the sun was not sriking directly on the roof though.

In that instance, I contacted our supply house and they had Tamko come out and surprisingly enough, they paid for us to completely remove the shingles and put on another color.

The second instance was a slight color variation from bundle runs in a 3-tab shingle, also from Tamko. In this instance, they not only paid to remove and replace the entire roof, but they also picked up the extra cost to upgrade to an architectural style shingle in the same color as the 3-tab that was chosen.

I buy alot of Tamko shingle, so that is probably why they covered things that should not have been covered. I think very admirably of that companys attitude regarding keeping their customers satisfied.

As TRG said, if the roof is done correctly, the warranty will not become an issue. But, over 90 % of all residential shingle roofs are NOT done correctly, which would give the manufacturer some wiggle room to find exclusions to the warranty issues.

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

I have never had to,not that`s there`s anything wrong w/ it:wink:


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## adawg (Sep 28, 2007)

Last question, I promise. It is now time to pic colors. I stink at this, as does my wife. As you will kinda see below, my house is a very light blue gray. I also have a nice front porch with natural stone. Any thoughts on good colors in the Certainteed Landmark line? Platinum is too light (almost identical to what is on there now). Kinda like driftwood but it might be too brown, Moire Black would work, but wasv looking for something other than straight black.

Based on your experience, what looks best with this color?


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Dark Blue gets my nod. :thumbup:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

black is probably the best look,take color swatches across the street from your house and block out your roof w/ them,then see what you like best,the dark blue is nice ,but some people get tired of it


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