# Basement walls flaking/efforvescense



## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi there. 

My basement foundation walls are flaking and crumbling at the surface in some spots. I believe the term is efforvescence. 

You can see some pictures below. 

Is this something I need to be concerned about? I want to finish my basement so these walls will not be assessable once the drywall is up. 

Should I just scrape it off and paint it with drydock?

Thanks for the help.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The *efflorescence* is telling you there is moisture vapor passing through the foundation and the white powder is the minerals it is washing out of the concrete and depositing on the surface as the moisture drys. The message is, solve the moisture problem before you attempt to finish that space of the moisture will continue and be a potential mold issue.

*Drylok* is vapor permeable so will not stop moisture vapor and it is not the solution its name implies.

Water and moisture issues start outside with proper drainage and landscaping. If moisture issues continue the solution becomes far more complex and expensive.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Water can not be stopped from the inside. It can be stopped on the outside or managed on the inside.
You wall looks like it has a plaster finish, Does it get wet?


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> Water can not be stopped from the inside. It can be stopped on the outside or managed on the inside.
> You wall looks like it has a plaster finish, Does it get wet?


We never get visible water in the basement, nor do the walls ever get wet. However, some of the flaky spots are sometimes a little moist. I wouldn't call it wet though. 

Assuming that I don't correct the problem 100% from the outside, what other measures should I take when putting up drywall and insulation?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

harpua728 said:


> We never get visible water in the basement, nor do the walls ever get wet. However, some of the flaky spots are sometimes a little moist. I wouldn't call it wet though.
> 
> Assuming that I don't correct the problem 100% from the outside, what other measures should I take when putting up drywall and insulation?


 You could have condensation. Tape squares of ploy sheeting to areas that you see moisture. Moisture on the basement side of the poly will be house moisture. Moisture that is behind the poly could be coming thru the wall or wicking up from below.
If it is wicking or condensation and insulated wall solves that. 

Adding water to outside soil may be a test for a leak. What you are describing does not sound like a leak but I have been wrong more than a few times.:vs_cool:


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The efflorescence is telling the story, it is not created by condensation, but by moisture vapor or liquid water passing through the concrete and it doesn't look like a slight condition. The reason you don't see more moisture is that it is evaporating as it reaches the surface and when it evaporated it leaves behind those minerals. Given time it will deteriorate the concrete.

As for proceeding to finish the basement, drywall and insulation, I don't recommend it, but I hate problem basements. For those determined to proceed there are different expensive options like a dimpled membrane and drainage path. In all cases you must provide a place for the moisture to go either evaporation as it is doing now or drainage to some place.

Bud


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*where's the efflorescence ? should be a white powder that rubs off w/your hand,,, what i see is a coating of something - drylok-type product ? eg, visible brush marks aren't evident is someone's painted,,, flaking and crumbling are a separate issue,,, ' little moist ' = WET,,, just because there's no running or pooling wtr is no indication its dry,,, how big a dehumidifier are you using ?

'I wouldn't call it wet though. 'Is this something I need to be concerned about?' accessibility is always an issue once the drywall's up therefore it behooves a prudent man to fix this now,,, condensation would show as wtr running down the walls or pooling on the floor if not from a leak

'just scrape it off and paint it with drydock?' depends on how often you want to do this & how much $ are you willing to throw at it ?,,, whatever you do, the existing white stuff has to come off 1st to do it right

we do this work for a living*


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

stadry said:


> *where's the efflorescence ? should be a white powder that rubs off w/your hand,,, what i see is a coating of something - drylok-type product ? eg, visible brush marks aren't evident is someone's painted,,, flaking and crumbling are a separate issue,,, ' little moist ' = WET,,, just because there's no running or pooling wtr is no indication its dry,,, how big a dehumidifier are you using ?
> 
> 'I wouldn't call it wet though. 'Is this something I need to be concerned about?' accessibility is always an issue once the drywall's up therefore it behooves a prudent man to fix this now,,, condensation would show as wtr running down the walls or pooling on the floor if not from a leak
> 
> ...


Yes, the previous owners painted the walls with dry lock (approx 5/6 years ago). I have a 70 pint dehumidifier but I only got one this year and had this issue before then as well. 

If I finish the basement, would I be better off not insulating the walls to avoid possible mold issues? My concern there is that the basement will be too cold. I would put baseboard heaters in but there will still be cold sections, I assume.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The 09 energy codes have a nice map to provide insulation requirements but your area may have gone on to 2012, 2015, or the newest 2018 codes, check local authorities to see which they are following.

But, if we use the 09 codes
https://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/?state=New York
they show 2" of rigid foam or R-13 for cavity only. The problem with cavity insulation is it doesn't separate the insulation from the incoming moisture. Neither would the 2" of rigid foam. Whatever you put up there will block the current evaporation and allow the moisture to accumulate and become a source for mold growth. 

You either waterproof from the outside or manage the moisture/water from the inside.

Now some good news but it doesn't meet the code requirements. If you insulate just the above grade foundation area from the inside, maybe a little below grade, and air seal and insulate the rim cavity above you will have eliminated 80% of the heat loss. Leave the lower area exposed and manage with a dehumidifier. Not ideal but it minimizes the mold risk while helping you heat that area.

Bud


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> The 09 energy codes have a nice map to provide insulation requirements but your area may have gone on to 2012, 2015, or the newest 2018 codes, check local authorities to see which they are following.
> 
> But, if we use the 09 codes
> https://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/?state=New York
> ...


Thanks, Bud. When you say manage with a dehumidifier, would a dehumidifier inside the conditioned dry walled space (after finishing the basement) help with moisture in the foundations walls? 

I may have a roofing and gutter company fine to look at my downspouts, but who else should I contact to look at the basement walls and suggest fixes? My worry is that the contractors coming to look at the basement will just say it's fine and put drywall up. None of the guys I've had come by for quotes to finish the basement have mentioned that this is an issue (they probably just want to do their job and get paid).


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*here's my experience - hy skoul fizix sez cold runs to hot & wet runs to dry,,, running a dehumidifier dries ambient air but draws in more moisture from the walls, etc,,, achieving relative humidity of 50% is easy enough but won't stop permeating moisture - even w/cementitious coating as you already noted.

bud's note re insulation above grade is good but don't cover any wood,,, we drape 9mil plastic on walls prior to finishing,,, ambient earth temp's generally 65-67* which is the temp your walls will reach,,, 2" of foam over the plastic will stop water vapor however it may condense & run down to the floor,,, we install bsmnt wtrproofing systems so we run the plastic down under the floor,,, VOILA ! no mas agua AND dry air in the bsmnt.

put your own downspout extensions on,,, most bsmnt finishers don't understand water/moisture imo,,, we do both - wtr/vapor/radon management, insulation, & finishing*


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

@harpua "(they probably just want to do their job and get paid)." funny how that happens.
We have seen here on the forum and I've seen in person homes built at the bottom of a hill where water has no place to go, solutions are few. On the other hand we sometimes see simple landscaping issues that can be changed to direct virtually all of the surface water well away from the house. One consistent issue is the soil next to the foundation having settled over time and directing surface towards problem areas.

But then there is another whole world below the surface where water follows a completely hidden terrain and it is nearly impossible to predict what that looks like. Developers add and remove soil to suit their needs leaving behind the peaks and valleys that can direct water to your basement. Since we can't see this underground landscape the best we can do is judge it from what has happened over time and in your case we know there is a water/moisture issue.

Another important point rarely mentioned is that moisture comes in two forms, liquid water and moisture vapor. Some typical treatments for the foundation may block the water but moisture vapor can pass right through concrete from below the footing up into your walls. Yes, they can build a moisture proof basement but people like us can rarely afford one and it has to be done when constructed. Thus you hear the phrase "manage the moisture" used on existing homes.

More reading and I like Joe's intro:
https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1

Bud


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*usually i add to the conversation ' God never meant for man to live below ground !*


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

stadry said:


> *here's my experience - hy skoul fizix sez cold runs to hot & wet runs to dry,,, running a dehumidifier dries ambient air but draws in more moisture from the walls, etc,,, achieving relative humidity of 50% is easy enough but won't stop permeating moisture - even w/cementitious coating as you already noted.
> 
> bud's note re insulation above grade is good but don't cover any wood,,, we drape 9mil plastic on walls prior to finishing,,, ambient earth temp's generally 65-67* which is the temp your walls will reach,,, 2" of foam over the plastic will stop water vapor however it may condense & run down to the floor,,, we install bsmnt wtrproofing systems so we run the plastic down under the floor,,, VOILA ! no mas agua AND dry air in the bsmnt.
> 
> put your own downspout extensions on,,, most bsmnt finishers don't understand water/moisture imo,,, we do both - wtr/vapor/radon management, insulation, & finishing*


How would I insulate above grade without covering wood? The pic below shows a section. Eat one of my basement windows? What would you suggest?


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Here's a better shot of the rim joists


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*we don't cover the rim joists due to termite inspections,,, you may not have those on long island,,, we didn't in jersey or binghamton*


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

What kind of foundation CMU's or poured in place??


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Canarywood1 said:


> What kind of foundation CMU's or poured in place??


I honestly have nothing clue.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*my guess is cmu,,, couple reasons: 1, blocks (cmu-concrete masonary unit) are usually more porous than concrete; & 2, concrete foundation bldrs generally have higher trade skills when it involves bsmnt walls than masons,,, before anyone starts throwin' cmu's at me, that's just my opinion based on 35-40yrs experience

cmu walls will generally start leaking faster'n conc walls,,, most conc walls will start leaking at the intersection of the wall & floor ( cove ),,, cmu's can start leaking anywhere,,, ymmv*


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

" concrete foundation bldrs generally have higher trade skills when it involves bsmnt walls than masons,,, before anyone starts throwin' cmu's at me, that's just my opinion based on 35-40yrs experience"

I think you just made a lot of masons irate, so you have masons that just set foundations in the south??


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

harpua728 said:


> I honestly have nothing clue.


Probably be a good idea to find out before you do anything.


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Canarywood1 said:


> Probably be a good idea to find out before you do anything.


What's the easiest way to figure it out??


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*only said bsmnt walls, woody*


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

stadry said:


> *only said bsmnt walls, woody*


All the same to me, just pulling your leg.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

harpua728 said:


> What's the easiest way to figure it out??


Look for mortar joints in the basement, unless they all look like the pics you posted, can you see the foundation from the outside look for joints there, if no mortar joints it's poured in place, or solid concrete.


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Canarywood1 said:


> Look for mortar joints in the basement, unless they all look like the pics you posted, can you see the foundation from the outside look for joints there, if no mortar joints it's poured in place, or solid concrete.



It's hard to tell from the outside, but here are a few more pics from inside.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Looks like poured in place from the pic's, any idea how old the house is??


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

Canarywood1 said:


> Looks like poured in place from the pic's, any idea how old the house is??


Yes, that I know! Built in 1940.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Yeah i can see the individual boards used to make the forms, newer forms are made from plywood so fairly smooth wall results.


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

So how does this affect what I need to do?


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## rooster4321 (Feb 25, 2018)

Imo the moisture is seeping through the top plate and down into the concrete you need to from the outside stop that moisture from getting to the wood only after you stop that moisture can you finish the interior otherwise you will have continued problem and mold

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Tapatalk


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

The worst spots tend to be below my window wells, and in two corners where I have gutter downspouts. I'll try to reroute those downspouts, and will cover the window wells.

There's also a bad spot directly underneath my front door, which is odd since there is a brick walkway leading to the landing in front of the door, which is two steps up from ground level. However, my sprinkler box is right there to the side, and the main water pipe that supplies my house with water is in the same general area.


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## rooster4321 (Feb 25, 2018)

I didn't see that in the Op you must address those concerns I suspect your house being built in 1940s that there is no waterproofing on the outside of the concrete foundation that may be something to look into especially in those areas

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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*i don't see the spot(s) rooster did but this is an old monitor as am i :smile:

covering window wells may hellp & certainly won't hurt,,, rerouting downspouts is always good,,, wtr takes the path of least resistance so that may account for the front step area

IF this were our job, we'd remove the drylock-type material from the noted areas & repair w/rapid setting conc,,, it appears there's some 'honeycombing' of the existing conc which's not unusual in old conc fnds*


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

harpua728 said:


> We never get visible water in the basement, nor do the walls ever get wet. However, some of the flaky spots are sometimes a little moist. I wouldn't call it wet though.


When the wall looks a little moist in some areas take a temperature reading of that area ( probably near the top of the wall ) and compare that temperature with the wall near the floor.


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## brian85 (Dec 21, 2019)

I know this is an old post, but I have a similar issue, and I'm curious - @harpua728 - what did you end up doing?


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## harpua728 (Jul 13, 2015)

brian85 said:


> I know this is an old post, but I have a similar issue, and I'm curious - @harpua728 - what did you end up doing?


nothing, lol. I finished the basement and put up sheetrock. Out of sight, out of mind.


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## brian85 (Dec 21, 2019)

harpua728 said:


> nothing, lol. I finished the basement and put up sheetrock. Out of sight, out of mind.


🤞


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Building codes are not the best way to do everything. They are created to balance cost, vs performance and a wide variety of applications. In many cases common sense ways to do things will work just fine. However, who is going to approve them and take responsibility when they fail?

Code enforcement people are not necessarily energy engineers so they need well defined limits that they can apply to say this passes while that fails. If someone wants to "do other" than follow the codes they have the option to hire an engineer to design the alternative and hang his/her reputation and insurance on what is proposed. Lacking someone else to take responsibility leaves that town authority no choice but to follow codes to the letter.

When a home owner decided to "do other" the ultimate responsibility fall on them, be it some long term failure of subsequent inspection. I've seen both and they can get ugly. To be safe everyone should follow the codes (or better) and get all inspection and make sure they are filed with the town for future reference. Uncomfortable, often, but better than ignoring them.

Bud


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