# how would this happen ???



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

You have a roof leak , and then running under the roof sheathing.

Running down between the paint and stucco, while also getting inside too.

Is there a vent pipe in this area, that would be my first suspected leak spot, or maybe a loose tile ( if tile roof you have), look for signs of water in the attic access on the underside or the sheathing.


ED


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks Ed - we have a composition roof - I'll check for any piping

There is nothing but one hip and all composition shingles.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

It's not a paint problem . You have issues with the flashing or lack of flashing.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Gents, we have lived I the house for 7 yrs and never had a leak in this area, or one that we have noticed. Could or would a flashing/roof issue manifest after working properly for 10 yrs w out provocation? No one has been up there or disturbed this area...Thank you very much guys - your feedback is appreciated.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Did your painters possibly lean a ladder on or near a gutter, to possibly dislodge it?


ED


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

de-nagorg said:


> Did your painters possibly lean a ladder on or near a gutter, to possibly dislodge it?
> 
> 
> ED


 
I am not sure Ed, I did not see them painting and it was over 7 yrs ago...The gutters look fine. They look the same as in places where there are no issues...nothing that jumps out at me...Thank you Sir.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

you might also check to make sure that if your windows have "weep" holes (designed to drain) that they are unobstructed and not caulked over. Your paint blistering is (as others have said) likely a symptom of an underlying problem that is not necessarily paint related...unless the painters caulked over your weep holes.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

blackjack said:


> you might also check to make sure that if your windows have "weep" holes (designed to drain) that they are unobstructed and not caulked over. Your paint blistering is (as others have said) likely a symptom of an underlying problem that is not necessarily paint related...unless the painters caulked over your weep holes.


 Where are the weep holes? Thank you


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

tstex said:


> Where are the weep holes? Thank you


if your windows were designed with weep holes they are normally located at the bottom of each window. on the left and right side.

https://www.google.com/search?q=weep+holes+on+windows+images&oq=weep+hole

bring a utility knife with you when you check to make sure they are clear or to clear them if they are obstructed.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks...I'm gone for the day but will ck out & post back in the morning


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

The national weather reports said that you have had extraordinary rain storms lately.

There is a possibility that your gutters could not handle that much rain, and were just spilling over.

Maybe partially clogged with leaves, bird nests, other unwanted things. Or just too small for this much volume.

There are many things that can be causing this.

So keep looking , because it can cause damage that you do not want.


ED


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks Ed & BJack.

It's drizzling so not able to move about, but these gutters are on the second story. We have no trees in the front. I am not sure about nests in the gutters, but most of the birds make their nests in the thick bottlebrush tree. I'll get up on the roof when the c-shingles dry, but need to be careful bc it is pitched well.

We have had water pocketing in the paint areas before, mainly the trim. It has been corrected about 3-4 diff times, but never experienced water coming into the sheet rock. This is the master bedroom wall that faces the front yd, so I am pretty sure there are no pipes in the wall. The bedroom above is the guest rm and it's wall too faces the front yard as well. I'm really baffled. I have always been able to figure out things or seek someone that would lead me in the correct direction. This one has me stumped.

After it dries a bit, I am going to check from the outside wall. Also pls note, although we had an 8" rain last weekend and a good 2-3" rain yesterday, we had over 10" Memorial Day. We did not see or notice anything then. Not saying it was not there, but more than likely we would have noticed it.

I am also going to go up into the attic and take a good look w a strong flashlight. Once I find the source, I will post back, but for now, I am all ears and quite humbled for the moment.

Best regards and I appreciate all your help and insight,
tstex


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

It is amazing what water can do and how it can move. There is something called the "capillary effect", which, in essence, means water can actually move against gravity and travel backwards moving up under drip edges and gutters and finding its way into your home.

I've seen waterfalls of water come into a home caused by poor roofing technique. Rainwater basically found its way BEHIND the fascia outside, ran downward into the soffit and eventually made its way inside in a cascade of water.

I've also seen water enter a home through what amounted to a nail hole in an aluminum valley. No one could find it for several months till someone actually went up on the roof and got on their hands and knees to finally spot the hole.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Yes, the bonds in water w surface tension are amazing...just like filling-up a pill capsule w water and you can actually put more water into the capsule that the true vol will hold...if it has an upward path w the correct adhesion, it will move...

Considering all of the above, including nail holes and other, I have installed 5-6 26ga R-Panel Galvalum metal roofs, and if a leak is going to occur, it is usually right after the install. A 10-yr latent effect is what I am wrestling w at this time. I would think is would be hard to conclude that it took 10-yrs for the water to finally find this path. However, I did not mention that on the outside corner of the master bedroom, there is a faucet there. I am inclined to believe the piping was from under the foundation up, vs through the wall, yes? I will admit that in a house prior to this, which we bought new in 1998, some 6-7 yrs later we noticed the sheetrock was moist in the toilet area wall that separated the shower from the toilet stall. We opened up the wall and the soldering of some copper piping was leaking...so, it does happen and it happens w new houses as well as old ones.

I am inclined to get my drill, make a hole large enough to get my sm sheet rock saw and start some cutting to see if I can determine a path of the water. It's going to have to be re-sheet-rocked anyway.

thanks again,
tstex


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

for the sake of clarity, when you check your weep holes (i've never encountered a window that didn't have weeps), also check the very bottom and sides of each bottom corner if you do not see them on the face. I have experienced them being located in those positions. you may have to look carefully if they have been caulked over....they're there somewhere. locate them on one window and you'll likely figure out where they are on all the windows. If its raining out side, you may be able to access from the bedroom by simply pulling the screen out and taking a look. make sure the tracks are clean and clear. no mossy build up. no debris. no standing water.
Also check to make sure it is properly flashed at the top and that any caulk around it is not failing, cracked or pulled away from the stucco. You'll likely need a ladder for that part but if your window opens then i'd take a peek from the inside of the house if possible...

also, is there more than one area that this is occurring in aside from under the master bedroom window? or is it isolated to one area? pics?
the fact that it is under that window leads me to believe that it is related to the installation or maintenance of that window in some capacity. If there are other areas then ??? but it is likely that the old yellow color was part of the stucco system installation. Not necessarily a coating such as paint. Water is getting between the two and the paint has more elasticity thus causing it to blister and retain water like a water balloon. What style of stucco are we talking about? Actual stucco or is it Drivit or EIFS?


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Jack,

The weep holes or what is at the ends that are flat instead of the continued metal lip that holds in the screen, they are there and there is nothing blocking them. So, no water retention or back-up from this source.

As far as the top of the windows, the flashing on all 3 of them look great. No breaks in the stucco and integrity of caulk is very good.

The siding is a true stucco and the builder uses an "eight-step-process" in making it. I have had to drill holes in it in the back to hang metal ornaments for the wife and it's hard and about 1.25" - 1.5" thick. You can only use the same masonry bit for about 6-8 holes and it's toast.

Addressing the paint/stucco issue, there have been many places where the paint, mainly in the trim, has bubbled. However, no issue from the inside has ever manifested. This is the first time. Usually after the rain is over and the sun does its duties, the paint [from a visual] looks normal again. This time the bubbles were unusually large. I went out in the rain and popped them to release the rain. The yellow paint underneath from the orig paint job seemed in good order. This is paint, and w 879 in the community, there are a few other houses w this type of paint that the resident selected and it's still painted that way.

I do not have a means of posting pictures yet, but if someone would be kind enough to PM me w an email address, I take some pic's and send them via my iPhone. I will take some pics of the paint and stucco outside, the window area, then the damage inside. Perhaps this could better shed some light on the matter.

Again, thank you very much,
tstex


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

bummer it's not something that simple... I live in Seattle. We have LOTS of water and thus have repaired LOTS of water damage resulting from poor window and door installation or repairs done after installation. Without pics, it's hard to gauge where to look.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

tstex said:


> I do not have a means of posting pictures yet,


Sure you do...http://www.diychatroom.com/f114/how-insert-images-into-your-posts-205921/


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks - I'll work on getting this set-up tonight - I am off to HD to get a sm sheetrock saw to determine if there is a pipe in the wall leaking...Hopefully from emailing some pic's to another DIY member, they too can shed some light on the matter.

Again, this is a great forum and I immensely appreciate everyone's help and feedback...I look forward to returning the favors - tstex


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

tstex said:


> Thanks - I'll work on getting this set-up tonight - I am off to HD to get a sm sheetrock saw to determine if there is a pipe in the wall leaking...Hopefully from emailing some pic's to another DIY member, they too can shed some light on the matter.
> 
> Again, this is a great forum and I immensely appreciate everyone's help and feedback...I look forward to returning the favors - tstex


Here are some of the photos:


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

blackjack said:


> Here are some of the photos:


and another. still trying to figure out the formatting of the other pics to post.
View attachment 212313


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Looks like the weep holes are buried to me. How about some pics standing back showing the entire wall including the roof.

Closeups of paint blisters don't help with diagnosing anything.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

kwikfishron said:


> Looks like the weep holes are buried to me. How about some pics standing back showing the entire wall including the roof.
> 
> Closeups of paint blisters don't help with diagnosing anything.


There are a couple more pics that show a reveal of <1/8". They are in a different format and I can't seem to save them from email to upload. Maybe he can figure out how to post them later.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

kwikfishron said:


> Looks like the weep holes are buried to me. How about some pics standing back showing the entire wall including the roof.
> 
> Closeups of paint blisters don't help with diagnosing anything.


a couple more pics


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

blackjack said:


> a couple more pics


If there's windows directly above the ones pictured with blocked weep holes (especially with the aluminum frames) then that would be a likely culprit (worth investigating more for sure). 

It's time for some exploratory surgery.

Still would like to see whole wall pictures. If OP emailed them to you then he can post them here (I gave him the instructions).


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

There are. Likely poorly installed as well. Gravity sucks sometimes...


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## throrope (Oct 30, 2015)

We've got similar on our home built in '97 with masonry front. Our most likely cause is lack of window flashing. Google for window installation instructions and you will find procedures that use four and six inch wide foil backed bituminous tape over the window framing studs and sheeting before placing the window and more overlapping the window after placement. I'm sure our house has none.

I heard when first introduced, vinyl windows were presented as self flashing. Either this was a conveniently accepted myth or failed installations dismissed that notion. One issue that cannot be overcome is the difference in thermal expansion between masonry and vinyl. The materials move against each other from one season to the next. A hairline crack passes more water than you can imagine.

Our builder is belly up and we're avoiding the issue with our heads in the sand.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

Have you contacted your home insurance provider?


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## throrope (Oct 30, 2015)

blackjack said:


> Have you contacted your home insurance provider?


About ten years ago when the shower pipe let go and trashed the dining room below, we asked, but no go. Not associated with an event or something like that.

They took care of our dining room, which was the last time any insurance policy met expectations.

Starting with a Hurricane Irene flood claim and continuing with a miserable Allstate experience when a deer clobbered my brand new car, continental reneging on my trucks extended warranty and AIG losing record of my life insurance payment and cancelling despite repeatedly sending proof of payment, I've been dumping policies left and right. Last look at AIG online, the policy is active, but no separate acknowledgement to date. Thanks to Geico and their agent, I'm now paying half for auto, home and boat.

Knowing I'm not covered is more reassuring the discovering same after paying the premium.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

What a bummer. They sure don't make houses like they used to, that's for sure...slap em up, use sub par materials and -uh--let's say low budget labor, stick a for sale sign on it and run like 4377. It's terrible. Leaves an unsuspecting new home buyer up a creek. Hope ya get it worked out. One window at a time...and I really hope you don't live in a wet climate. It hasn't stopped raining here in Seattle in about a week, maybe 2? Dont remember...Only 8 more months to go, yipee!


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Insurance wouldn't cover this anyway. Insurance is for catastrophic sudden events like a burst pipe, car accident , tree falling on house, fire etc. This would be considered a maintenance item by an insurance policy and would not be covered .


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

My house built in 1960 is no great shakes either. Means some of the prior owners have spend considerable money repairing, maintaining and fixing


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

Huh. That's interesting. I remember a similar problem while working for a restoration company in Portland. Statefarm covered it if I remember correctly... they did some upgrades while we had it open but sf picked up the tab for the window and siding issues....I remember having to use HD products exclusively as sf paid for all materials and gets a deal on mats from hd...

I could be wrong as its been many years, but we did A LOT of restoration for sf. Fire,wind,water damage.. I'd check into it anyway unless you're 100% sure.
I live in an apt so I don't have experience dealing with homeowners insurance outside of a work atmosphere. Yet. Still waiting on our "short sale" 6 months into it...laughable at this point.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Insurance companies have changed drastically over the years.

They are now geared to deny everything, and not pay a cent.


ED


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Not universally true. Mine has overall has been great on ice dam damage, trees on house (just after installing a new roof). That's not the case for all. My insurance company will let me hirer my own contractors etc. Steering toward certain contractors or suppliers is illegal in Connecticut. They can suggest people but you take your car or choose a contractor of your choice.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks again BlackJack for posting pictures..I have been on the road and returning tonight...I have Wed to remove caulk from w-holes and will do before and after pics, then post them per instructions..

if you are ever in Hou, give me a ring and I owe you lunch or bfast....like you, we are going to get rain thur-sat night w 70-100% rain chances...I would rather have these issues than go thru another 2011 drought as TX experienced...horrible.

I appreciate everyone's help and follow-up...I also hope others on this thread w issues get their problems resolved too...Thanks again, tstex


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Post some pictures. They are usually worth a thousand words.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

First off, wanted to note that a forum member has been both very generous and gracious w their time via emailing me, and quite knowledgeable, thank you BlackJack, I am indebted to you.

Next, located someone from my builder that knew the make/model of my window manufacturer, then via 2nd-4th gen contacts..you cannot tell anything from seeing them in emails, other than they a metal framed. They are Champion single hung double-paned windows, and this version w screens does not have weep holes, which is almost completely contrary to industry std. The local outfit that knew of these windows said they would perform a leak-down and see if they could determine the issue, as well as inspect the outside and inside windowsill and all. they are also going to inspect the flashing at top. But as B-Jack stated, this is a window issue and not a pipe or other...just need to determine how and why, then get it fixed..

I have been traveling, then back at house quickly, then gone again...I need to get the house sq'ed away by next Monday for personal reasons, so that is why getting pic's posted by me has been difficult- I apologize for the inconvenience and again want to thank B-Jack for their kindness and follow-up, as well as others that have helped - Great Forum; Great people, and I look forward to returning the favor(s).

Regards,
tstex


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Have you ever posted any pictures of your windows? To answer your question: Can leaks start to happen after 7-10 years? Yes, especially if the original work was done wrong. Are there proper drip caps over the windows? Are they flashed properly? Is there a chimney up slope from where you are having these problems? Have you gone up in the attic and checked your rafters, top chord of truss for water traces down to the exterior wall? In my area, almost no steep roofing contractors flash chimneys properly, or even seem to know how to do so. They think slapping some metal against a brick surface and caulking the top is just fine. They are wrong. In my travels, I have found more problems caused by the improper application of sealants than you can imagine. Many people apply sealants so as to prevent water from exiting the window or flashing system by blocking weep holes, or caulking drip lips. There are basically two types of building envelope systems, Barrier systems, and water managed systems. You have to know which you have, and how it works to solve moisture infiltration problems. You have to give the water somewhere to go, and the job of flashing is to continually move the water to the exterior of the building envelope. You also have to provide for differential movement based on the physical properties of the material you are using. ie. Base and counter flashing at chimneys. This seems pretty rudimentary, but you cannot believe how often it is ignored.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Jagans - Yes, pictures were posted by BlackJack

These are stucco windows and I cannot determine if drip-caps were installed, but they are flashed to what "appears" to be correct. All water issues seem to be immediately below the windowsills and only above the window if another window from 2nd story is above that one - no window on second story has any issues above the window or immediately below the upper flashed areas.

The chimney is on the other side of the roof not anywhere in this area - no problems exist downstream from the chimney

The windows are two styles: single hung double-pane metal windows & double-pane fixed metal windows. The former has no weep holes per spec and the openings on the bottom of the window/screen are not caulked or blocked The weep holes on the fixed window are open...a few were caulked on one side but no external or internal issues were noted.

The house seems to follow a barrier system...I have enclosed a link to the builders processes which notes the stucco and others:

http://kickerillo.com/our-processes

If there are any other questions I did not answer, pls let me know - thank you for your inquiry - tstex


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

tstex said:


> Jagans - Yes, pictures were posted by BlackJack
> 
> These are stucco windows and I cannot determine if drip-caps were installed, but they are flashed to what "appears" to be correct. All water issues seem to be immediately below the windowsills and only above the window if another window from 2nd story is above that one - no window on second story has any issues above the window or immediately below the upper flashed areas.
> 
> ...


Well Thank you. I saw those pictures. We need to see some overall pictures, not just tight shots. Either there is a head flashing/Drip cap, or there isn't. You should be able to see it if there is one there. From what I CAN see, at the risk of playing master of the obvious, a significant amount of water is getting behind your paint which appears to have horrible adhesion to the substrate. Are you getting a lot of condensation on the inside of these windows? Sure looks like it. If you have not had any problems up till now, really think hard about what has changed. Use a process of elimination. Can you tell us what the interior and exterior temperature and relative humidity are when this happens? It kind of looks like the dew point is falling right below your new paint job, at least at your windows.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

jagans said:


> Well Thank you. I saw those pictures. We need to see some overall pictures, not just tight shots.


Hopefully your request will yield results. 

The weep holes being buried is a HUGE issue but may not be the only one.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

kwikfishron said:


> Hopefully your request will yield results.
> 
> The weep holes being buried is a HUGE issue but may not be the only one.


I am not sure what you mean by weep holes in this application. Weep holes are present in Brick/ Block flashing with through wall head flashings with end dams in masonry construction. I do not think that applies here. From what I have seen the OP has water getting behind his barrier system, and I would highly suspect the lack of a drip cap and secondary protection like ice dams flashing around the windows prior to placement. I am sure that I could be 180 out, because as you know there is nothing that compares to being there.:wink2:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

tstex said:


> All water issues seem to be immediately below the windowsills and only above the window if another window from 2nd story is above that one - no window on second story has any issues above the window or immediately below the upper flashed areas.


jagans, the weep holes I'm referring to are the ones that are manufactured into the bottom of most windows (primarily sliders). If those holes get blocked water can not drain out of the tract. On a welded vinyl window the water will fill up and spill over the bottom of the frame likely showing up as an issue as a wet window sill at first. In the case of OP's non-welded aluminum windows that water usually ends up leaking out through the corners of the frame down into the framing of the wall. 











tstex said:


> Jagans -The windows are two styles: single hung double-pane metal windows & double-pane fixed metal windows. The former has no weep holes per spec and the openings on the bottom of the window/screen are not caulked or blocked *The weep holes on the fixed window are open...a few were caulked on one side but no external or internal issues were noted.*












tstex, the weep holes on the window you have pictured are clearly blocked. Once again, please post pictures standing back showing the entire wall from the ground to the roof.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks Kwick, that is what I thought you meant. I would call those drainage holes, but I guess that is just a matter of perceived definition. I looked at the pictures that were previously posted and he has what appear to be old wood cased windows onto which a paint which is incompatible with the substrate has been applied. They actually look like someone has applied a paint remover judging by the way the paint has "curdled". There are no sills on his windows that extend out past the exterior. It looks like those cheap flanged windows were installed and then a casing trim was installed on top of the flange. I think you might be right, the morons probably buried the weep/drainage holes under the trim, and then caulked the water into the system. Were I him, I would check with the neighbors and see if the same builder further scarred the earth with his work on their homes. 

Thank You.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Kwik & Jagans,

Thank you for your feedback, comments, pic's and notes.

I am in the process of trying to get set-up to post pictures...it will happen. But until then, here are a couple of notes:

The single-hung/double pane windows w screens as noted in the pictures, *do not have* weep holes. A window company that knows this manufacturer very well, stated that all of their metal windows, except the fixed pane windows, do not have weep holes. The front of the frame for the single hung windows are solid w no holes anywhere on the front of the frame. There are, however, gaps at the end of the windows on the flat part where the sm metal lip holds in the screen, it terminates for about 1/2-5/8" towars the end to allow water to not be blocked if rain comes in the screen.

Here's what I found out and one point is what Kwik stated. 

_In the mitre areas of the bottom window frame where it's 90'ed, these are two separate pieces where the bottom joins the sides. I was told to clean very well, then apply silicone from the front all the way to the back, then up about an inch or so on the back upward side of the frame where it's 90'ed. Do this on both sides. _

_Next, since all of these windows have an alarm sensor, I was told to apply silicone on the circular plug. _

_Then, where the bottom part of the window hits to seal the window, I was told to clean this completely to prevent any possible debris from forming a potentially sm gap for allowing wind-driven rain to penetrate. _

_Finally, I was told to put something the height of a penny under the screen so if it rains real hard, the water has all the room it needs to pour out vs being held-up - the point is, keep the water flowing and not having time to set-up to the top of the bottom flat portion of the window frame._

Once I complete all of these on 21 single-hung windows, I am also going to visit all 10-12 fixed windows and make sure all the weep holes in the corners are freed of any caulk, debris or other. That will be a total of 42 corner caulk jobs and 21 alarm plug seals and 21 window sealer cleanings. After all of this is done, I am going to wait for the next big rain and monitor each of the windows below stucco trim for water pocketing and all side trims that have windows above them. Of course I will ck for one place where there was water penetration to make sure that stays dry. If all ck's, then I'm going to do a leak down on the window where the water penetration happened and if the inside wall stays completely dry, then I'll wait for optimum weather to remove old paint and repaint where applicable. Does it sound like missed anything?

Well, it's up to God now to allow for some drier weather so I can clean and caulk, then again for the rain. If it sounds like I missed anything, pls let me know?

Note, all window frames are metal.

Again, thanks for everyone's help and feedback - tstex


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Dear tstex,

I am assuming that the pictures that you posted are of your actual condition. If so, the windows you have are wrong for the application, and they were used as a first cost, down and dirty installation. There was a poster on here that had a signature that was something like: "You gotta think like water." Now every roofing and waterproofing expert that I know of any repute at all knows this adage to be correct. I will add the one I use most of the time, "You gotta give the water somewhere to go" 

Now, a properly designed window does not need to have pennies added to make it function properly, and a window has to have a sill sloped to the exterior which extends out past the exterior siding, and has a drip provision to prevent capillary infiltration under the sill. Commercial, all metal storefront type windows require a sill pan that serves this same function. I have run into leaking flanged windows ( I call them trailer park, or RV windows, because they only work on barrier type exteriors like sheet metal) wherein the bottom miters were never sealed at the factory, so they still leaked at the bottom miters. I think Kwikfish mentioned this. 

It is my opinion, from what I have seen in your photos, that you need new windows designed for the type of siding you have. You have the wrong type of windows for your application. Those windows are for vinyl or aluminum siding. From what I see in the pictures, the sill was slapped on over the lower flange of the window, and sealant was applied in an attempt to seal the joint between metal and wood or composite or whatever you have there. Your sill it is not integral with the window, and designed to re-direct water to the exterior. You probably also have the miter problem as alluded to by fast-fish. You may want to open up the Sheetrock under one of these leakers on the interior below the lower corner and take a gander at the interior of the wall. I bet you have a mess in there that needs attention. Dry-rot of the bottom of the trimmers is a distinct possibility, and that would be structural, as the trimmers support the header above the window.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

I have observed from the outside, what type and how my neighbors windows were installed, and if any water penetration. All the same windows, all installed the same way, and no issues. We have only had water in one area when we have 8 inches of rain, then 4" of rain in back-to-back weekends.

Re the pennies, this was from a window rep that stated if you get a lot of debris in the window and after silicone application, something under the window will keep screen off silicone, and if debris accumulates, the additional lift will help to move the water faster.

I did not know if we drew the black lotto on our set of windows vs the n-bors getting the same ones and no issues, but we are going to have to make this work. I am going to open the sheetrock to see what we have there for good measures...sheetrock is cheap. I have dehumidifier at my ranch house that I'll bring back if I need to do so.

Finally, what type of windows were suppose to be installed if these are the wrong type for the wrong application? From speaking w window vendors, there are top of the line custom windows, middle of the road and low-cost. From speaking w 3-4 diff man rep's, visiting their offices, etc, we have middle of the road. This is what I have been told. Thanks


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

tstex said:


> I have observed from the outside, what type and how my neighbors windows were installed, and if any water penetration. All the same windows, all installed the same way, and no issues. We have only had water in one area when we have 8 inches of rain, then 4" of rain in back-to-back weekends.
> 
> Re the pennies, this was from a window rep that stated if you get a lot of debris in the window and after silicone application, something under the window will keep screen off silicone, and if debris accumulates, the additional lift will help to move the water faster.
> 
> ...


Maybe I was not clear. Any interruption of the building envelope, ie. door, window fan vent etc. etc. has to be installed so that there is provision to move the water hitting or entering said purtenance to the outside of the building envelope. This has to be done through the design of the item, or through the use of properly applied flashing. A well designed window and its flashing do not have to depend on sealants, because the proper function depends on the shingled nature of its components. I think that I described a proper window sill in a previous post. The sill must extend out past the building envelope, and have a drip provision to prevent water from tracing back under the sill. If you google sill flashing, or window sill flashing you will see that well designed windows have what I am describing. Commercial storefront type windows have weep holes and are set on what is called a sill pan, wherein the window is set on rubber risers on the pan. the pan has end dams built into it, it extends back to behind the interior of the window and turns up. This allows any water entering the mullions or muntins to weep down to the pan and out. You have residential windows, and it appears to me that they are cased over the outer trim of the window and sealed between that casing and the window. You are therefore depending on sealant to keep the water out, and you may have dammed water into the window trim. It sure looks like it. You really need to take one of those buggers apart. When you do, you will find the cause. It is not always easy, but the only way to be sure it to get in there and get your hands dirty.

Thankfully, residential problems are not too costly to fix, unlike, for instance, missing through wall flashing or end dams in commercial brick/ block masonry construction. :devil3:


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