# joist not sitting flush to beam



## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

I have a center beam I put up a few weeks ago. It was done with PT 2x6's. I began to hang the joist hangers every 16" like most do. This is just a project I had on the side at my home.

Im thinking the center beam twisted a bit while in between the time, I put it up and before I got the rest of the joist hangers and joist on one side. I have one side done and still have the other side to do.

The issue I have is that the joist are not seating flush with the beam. The joist sits flush at the top and at the bottom it is out about a 1/8" from the beam, a few maybe 3/16". 

How much of a concern is this?


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## ninjahero (Apr 10, 2012)

There should be no problem if u have the joist hangers n the proper nails in the given holes


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

ninjahero said:


> There should be no problem if u have the joist hangers n the proper nails in the given holes


 
Im using joist hangers and the correct nails.

10's on the hanger itself and 16's on the toe in through the hanger.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

did you use a a block of the joist material for a gauge when you put hte hangers on.. if not your hanger is probably at the wrong height


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## ninjahero (Apr 10, 2012)

It should be fine then. The result for that can either be that the beam itself is bent or the joist is cut on an angle. There shouldn't be any problems.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes.

I did use a block of 2x6 as a gauge.

The center beam has a slight twist on it. On one side the joist are 1/4" to 1/8" off on the bottom. On the other side the joist are 1/4" to 1/8" off on the top.

Im not sure what to do here.

I may of put the joist to low on the beam. The reason I believe that is the if I put a straight edge under the center beam it bottoms out on the joist and leaves about a 1/4" gap between the beam and the straight edge.

Maybe I can post some pics.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

ok after re reading your original post it sounds like one of two things. .either the beam isnt sitting plumb or the opposite end where the joists are coming from are high so the joists are tipped


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

How wet was the wood? I had a batch of 2x12's that shrunk down about 1/4" when they dried out.

Could this be a shrinkage issue?


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

shrinking wouldnt have anything to do with this.. the joists arent butting square into the beam


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Ok, maybe these post will help.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Here are some more.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

And some more.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> ok after re reading your original post it sounds like one of two things. .either the beam isnt sitting plumb or the opposite end where the joists are coming from are high so the joists are tipped


 
If you set a level on top of the joist, in the middle of them, then it is pretty level.

I was wondering if the outside wall was a little higher myself. 

However, Im thinking the beam is twisted some how.

In the pics, the side I have done, the beam seems to be twisted. I mean if you put a level on it, the side the completed joist are on, and run the level north and south, you have to pull the level out at the bottom about a 1/4" to get it level. 

On the other side, its pretty much the same, but you have to pull the level out at the top by 1/4" to get it level.

Am I ok here or not?

I intend to install some light fixtures in the joist as well as insulation above and put drywall on the bottom side of the joist to seal up my garage.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Here are some better shots of the joist.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

More....


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I have installed some similar and they passed framing inspection. Just so the back edge of the joist is not shorter than the inside edge of the hanger at the bottom = full hanger bottom bearing. Those appear to be similar to a Simpson double-dome shear hanger: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LUS-HUS.asp

Be careful on the correct length 45* nails, pp. 75; http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/catalogs/S-INSTALL09.pdf#page=38

The gap to the header will allow seasonal expansion/contraction and still have some shear (though you may not need it in this application).

Gary


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

by setting the joists on one side of the beam first only your creating a problem.. if theres any deviation on one end where they start to the beam will deflect.. you should work both sides so to keep the beam straight.. in combination with my comment about things not being level it will hit on the top and not be a even joint which pushes on the beam


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Outer wall and the center beam either or both may not be straight. You measured one spot and cut them all and get the gap in spots.
Unfortunately, I think you picked wider 2x6 to use as a gauge block. Hangers are below the girder. Above being attic, hangers should've been matched to the bottom of the beam. Repair depends on kind of ceiling, although redoing the joists now may make everything easier later. One less thing to forget later.:wink:
There should be more studs under the beam to support, continuous to the foundation. Triple beam, triple support.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

GBR in WA said:


> I have installed some similar and they passed framing inspection. Just so the back edge of the joist is not shorter than the inside edge of the hanger at the bottom = full hanger bottom bearing. Those appear to be similar to a Simpson double-dome shear hanger: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LUS-HUS.asp
> 
> Be careful on the correct length 45* nails, pp. 75; http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/catalogs/S-INSTALL09.pdf#page=38
> 
> ...


Gary

What do you mean by the inside edge of the hanger at the bottom?

That is the correct hangers Im using, from Lowes.

The correct nails Im using. 16 x 3 1/2 and 10 x 1 1/2.

I live in Florida.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> by setting the joists on one side of the beam first only your creating a problem.. if theres any deviation on one end where they start to the beam will deflect.. you should work both sides so to keep the beam straight.. in combination with my comment about things not being level it will hit on the top and not be a even joint which pushes on the beam


I did not know that.

So, do you suggest me finish the project or go back and take the joist out....and work back and forth from opposite ends?


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## Hammer450R (Aug 17, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> by setting the joists on one side of the beam first only your creating a problem.. if theres any deviation on one end where they start to the beam will deflect.. you should work both sides so to keep the beam straight.. in combination with my comment about things not being level it will hit on the top and not be a even joint which pushes on the beam



Bingo! That was going to be my answer. Gotta work both sides at same time. Also might help to prop a couple spots to the floor until your done to stop any deflection.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

carpdad said:


> Outer wall and the center beam either or both may not be straight. You measured one spot and cut them all and get the gap in spots.
> Unfortunately, I think you picked wider 2x6 to use as a gauge block. Hangers are below the girder. Above being attic, hangers should've been matched to the bottom of the beam. Repair depends on kind of ceiling, although redoing the joists now may make everything easier later. One less thing to forget later.:wink:
> There should be more studs under the beam to support, continuous to the foundation. Triple beam, triple support.


 
I think its the center beam is not straight.

I measured in one spot only, not really thinking I guess.

I used a piece of scrap from the same 2x6's to measure my joist hangers.

I see that know, on matching the hanger to the bottom. I measured from the top.

Not sure supports can be put up, the width of the room is about 20 feet. The area is a garage for a car. Supports would get in the way of the car.
Ceiling, I had planned to screw drywall to it.

I dont mind going back and redoing some things, just going to slow me down some. Its a personal project.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Hammer450R said:


> Bingo! That was going to be my answer. Gotta work both sides at same time. Also might help to prop a couple spots to the floor until your done to stop any deflection.


You mean put support posts under the beam?


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## brockmiera (Oct 9, 2012)

This may be a silly questions but why didn't you just hang drywall from the bottom chord of that scissor truss? It seems like overkill to frame an entirely new ceiling structure when you had a perfectly good one already there. I thought originally it was for overhead storage or a second level but you dont have enough headroom to make it usable. Just a thought.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

unless the trusses have a 2x8 bottom chord their not designed to be used for storage. 

as for setting the joists. when i install a full run of joists on one side of a beam i run a dryline on the opposite edge of the beam to check if the beam is deflecting. if the string reads a constant 1 1/2" gap between it and the beam its good. when your setting things in hangers always cut the joist atleast 1/8" slack so they slide in easy


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## brockmiera (Oct 9, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> unless the trusses have a 2x8 bottom chord their not designed to be used for storage.
> 
> as for setting the joists. when i install a full run of joists on one side of a beam i run a dryline on the opposite edge of the beam to check if the beam is deflecting. if the string reads a constant 1 1/2" gap between it and the beam its good. when your setting things in hangers always cut the joist atleast 1/8" slack so they slide in easy


I was under the impression he was doing this project in order to hang lights, insulate, and drywall. Not for storage. My fault.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

brockmiera said:


> This may be a silly questions but why didn't you just hang drywall from the bottom chord of that scissor truss? It seems like overkill to frame an entirely new ceiling structure when you had a perfectly good one already there. I thought originally it was for overhead storage or a second level but you dont have enough headroom to make it usable. Just a thought.


I had a drywall contractor come out and framing contractor come out and they had planned to do that. The trusses are not regular trusses. They are mobile home type trusses. For whatever reason they are not installed on the on centers like they should be. There are three trusses in the middle with 8" on centers I think. Then it fans out to 32" centers. I have no idea why as to thats how they were when I moved in.

Their idea kind of scared me and my brother in law who lives in PA and is a union carpenter. He made the suggested plan Im doing now.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> unless the trusses have a 2x8 bottom chord their not designed to be used for storage.
> 
> as for setting the joists. when i install a full run of joists on one side of a beam i run a dryline on the opposite edge of the beam to check if the beam is deflecting. if the string reads a constant 1 1/2" gap between it and the beam its good. when your setting things in hangers always cut the joist atleast 1/8" slack so they slide in easy


 
Those mobile home trusses do not have that.

I dont know if I know what a dryline is.

Can you reexplain?

I gotcha on the hangers. You dont tack them up there tight so the joist has to be knocked into the hanger. You leave about a 1/16" on each side so it slides in.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

brockmiera said:


> I was under the impression he was doing this project in order to hang lights, insulate, and drywall. Not for storage. My fault.


 
No storage, just lights, insulation and drywall.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Just read everyones post and went out and measured the height of the beam. On the ends near the header, its right at 12 feet. In the middle, it looks like it is sagging about 1".


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

I managed to move 2 2x6x12 under the beam. I put them about 1 foot off center either way. I had to trim about a 1/4" off the beams, but when I got them under the beam real good I then measured from the beam to floor and it measured 12' across the length of the beam. The outside walls are 12 feet too. It should be about as level as its going to get.

Now, I guess I need to install the other side, but go back and adjust all the joist hangers on the other side to get them flush with the bottom of the beam. What a bone headed thing that was.

The beam itself seems to slightly twist a 1/4". Probably due to me not having enough support under the beam and the PT wood being pretty wet when nailed together. When I nailed it together, lots of water came out on top of the nail.

Please keep your suggestions coming.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Here is a pic of the support beam.

Again, I cut about a 1/4" of a 2x6x12.

As you can see, the side the center beam is in full contact with, the center beam that measures exactly 12' to the floor.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

string a dry line across it really tight and use feeler blocks.. just because your measurement off hte floor changes doesnt always mean its sagging.. the floor might not be perfectly flat. the string will tell you more or use a laser level and measure the difference in the laser


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> string a dry line across it really tight and use feeler blocks.. just because your measurement off hte floor changes doesnt always mean its sagging.. the floor might not be perfectly flat. the string will tell you more or use a laser level and measure the difference in the laser


Are you talking about stringing a line from the bottom of the beam across to the other side?

I dont really know what you mean by dry line and feeler blocks.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

take 3 peices of 2x scrap.. about 6" long.. nail one to the underside of the beam on each end.. now take a dryline (very strong nylon string) hook it on one end so it passes over the block and take it to the opposite end and hook it there doing so very tight.. now take the 3rd block and slide it under the string at the middle of the beam. if the block wont fit between the string and the beam, the beam is sagging. 

this is something that is done for straightening walls before setting floor joists on top along with roof trusses


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> take 3 peices of 2x scrap.. about 6" long.. nail one to the underside of the beam on each end.. now take a dryline (very strong nylon string) hook it on one end so it passes over the block and take it to the opposite end and hook it there doing so very tight.. now take the 3rd block and slide it under the string at the middle of the beam. if the block wont fit between the string and the beam, the beam is sagging.
> 
> this is something that is done for straightening walls before setting floor joists on top along with roof trusses


I gotcha.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> take 3 peices of 2x scrap.. about 6" long.. nail one to the underside of the beam on each end.. now take a dryline (very strong nylon string) hook it on one end so it passes over the block and take it to the opposite end and hook it there doing so very tight.. now take the 3rd block and slide it under the string at the middle of the beam. if the block wont fit between the string and the beam, the beam is sagging.
> 
> this is something that is done for straightening walls before setting floor joists on top along with roof trusses


How much sag is ok or not ok?

How would you go about correcting sag?

Should that be done before joist are put up?


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Since it is obvious that the beam is twisted.

Does this mean the joist should be cut not square, but at a angle?


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Since it is obvious that the beam is twisted.
> 
> Does this mean the joist should be cut not square, but at a angle?



there can be a little bit of space where the joists butts the beam( 1/4"), the hanger has a 1 1/2" bearing point so that allows a tiny bit of play but if more than 3/8 of an inch twist then cut the joists to follow the twisted beam.

I'm not sure how far along you are in the process but I always install the joists to the beam with toe nails and add hangers later, it makes the job much more complete and you can line the underside of the joist flush to the beam every time and you can see where the joist butts to the beam...



Also, if you are having deflection problems with your beam before the thing is even fully built then I'm not sure what could possibly help that beam at this point other than a stronger one.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Im right at the 1/4" on several joist. Thats good to know. 

Well, I have one side of the beam completely installed, but have been thinking about taking many down and redoing them.

I was thinking that. I tried that, but being a inexperience carpenter, I could not hold the joist with one hand and hammer with one. 

Well, I do not think the beam is all that bad, but yes, I dont think anything can be done about it. Its kind of clear to me that the beam went up while the wood was still wet and then I did not get the joist installed the same day, several days later, due to my work schedule, the joist got put in. Did not noticed that the beam had slightly twisted till it was to late.






hand drive said:


> there can be a little bit of space where the joists butts the beam( 1/4"), the hanger has a 1 1/2" bearing point so that allows a tiny bit of play but if more than 3/8 of an inch twist then cut the joists to follow the twisted beam.
> 
> I'm not sure how far along you are in the process but I always install the joists to the beam with toe nails and add hangers later, it makes the job much more complete and you can line the underside of the joist flush to the beam every time and you can see where the joist butts to the beam...
> 
> ...


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

There is no good sagging, for house or for us.:laughing:
The center girder, what is the span? Triple 2x6 is way inadequate, especially as yours was pieced together. Even with overlapping the joints, that is actually two 2x6 solid wood with a hinge in the middle. Where outside 2x's meet, you actually have one 2x6 in middle trying to hold the weight. You should have support posts where these hinges are.
If it was as easy as putting a support under the mid span to straighten the girder, ,,,you see what I mean. You can try sistering 2x12s and bolt the whole thing together, but even 2x12 has limits on how much it can span. You may have assembled the girder with crown down, but anyway, 2x6 does not give enough width for the nails that you need to assemble a girder.
The sagging may look acceptable now, but as time goes on, it will get worse, cracking the sheetrock, pulling in the walls that the girder is attached to, and possibly the load points failing. 
What to do from this point on is your decision. Personally, I would take it as a lesson and remove the whole thing. This is where your cars, properties and family will be. Take new photo of entire garage, draw a clean simple plan, and attach with what/how you want to use the garage for. In a hurricane zone, you really need engineer's advice, or at least from a builder who is well informed with personal inspection of that garage. Shear walls, ties and cables can make the structure tighter, all from inside.
It is really just my opinion based on the photos. I may be wrong, but the sagging girder is not a simple fix. It is good that you haven't added more to it yet. One thing, though, the girder ends, where opposite ends are sitting on the wall plate, you must add more studs that go to foundation. Make sure you see the continuation to the concrete. But again, really think about removing the whole thing and start over. 5 years from now, the money and time lost will be nothing compare to failing structure you will be looking at.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Im right at the 1/4" on several joist. Thats good to know.
> 
> Well, I have one side of the beam completely installed, but have been thinking about taking many down and redoing them.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, some houses I've built it seemed like having 6 arms would not be enough :jester: . For beams and long easy joist runs I set up a walkboard across the span under where the beam is that puts me while standing on the walkboard about eye level to the beam and if setting the joists myself while facing the beam and standing on the walkboard I use my shoulder to hold up the joist while nailing it to the beam with my two free hands. as you are nailing just keep the joist pressed tightly to the beam so it does not bounce around. sometimes a toe nail down through the top of the joist into the beam is the easiest to get started with then just tap the joist with a hammer to get it fine tuned to the underside of the beam and on layout and finish nailing it.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

carpdad said:


> There is no good sagging, for house or for us.:laughing:
> The center girder, what is the span? Triple 2x6 is way inadequate, especially as yours was pieced together. Even with overlapping the joints, that is actually two 2x6 solid wood with a hinge in the middle. Where outside 2x's meet, you actually have one 2x6 in middle trying to hold the weight. You should have support posts where these hinges are.
> If it was as easy as putting a support under the mid span to straighten the girder, ,,,you see what I mean. You can try sistering 2x12s and bolt the whole thing together, but even 2x12 has limits on how much it can span. You may have assembled the girder with crown down, but anyway, 2x6 does not give enough width for the nails that you need to assemble a girder.
> The sagging may look acceptable now, but as time goes on, it will get worse, cracking the sheetrock, pulling in the walls that the girder is attached to, and possibly the load points failing.
> ...


The length of that beam is a little over 19 feet.

It sounds like by using the word grider. You are advocating installing a steel beam instead of wood.

Could I just take down that wood beam and replace it with a steel one and then attach the joist to the steel beam?

It sounds like a 20 foot steel grider, like a I beam sitting on top of its on support post right up next to the walls is what your advocating. That way the steel beam is entirely on its on supports.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> I know what you mean, some houses I've built it seemed like having 6 arms would not be enough :jester: . For beams and long easy joist runs I set up a walkboard across the span under where the beam is that puts me while standing on the walkboard about eye level to the beam and if setting the joists myself while facing the beam and standing on the walkboard I use my shoulder to hold up the joist while nailing it to the beam with my two free hands. as you are nailing just keep the joist pressed tightly to the beam so it does not bounce around. sometimes a toe nail down through the top of the joist into the beam is the easiest to get started with then just tap the joist with a hammer to get it fine tuned to the underside of the beam and on layout and finish nailing it.


Interesting.

So, do you have a opinion like the above guy about taking all that down? I have a hard time swallowing the fact that the plan of a 10 year carpenter is wrong....


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So, do you have a opinion like the above guy about taking all that down? I have a hard time swallowing the fact that the plan of a 10 year carpenter is wrong....



19 feet and 2x6 do not match in any way possible, and you cannot really effectively make the beam wider to compensate for the lack of height in the beam. For 19' the beam should have been at least built from 2x12 lumber.

There are a couple of options. Since you have it somewhat built why not add another beam (dropped beam) under your beam with multiple 2x4s under the beam where it lands at the walls. head height might be an issue with the dropped beam though. The other option is to start over with a heavier beam, you might could add a temp wall support for your joists and take the beam apart and add the new beam in building it piece by piece.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

19 ft span.. .id be going with a 3 ply 16" lvl


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> 19 feet and 2x6 do not match in any way possible, and you cannot really effectively make the beam wider to compensate for the lack of height in the beam. For 19' the beam should have been at least built from 2x12 lumber.
> 
> There are a couple of options. Since you have it somewhat built why not add another beam (dropped beam) under your beam with multiple 2x4s under the beam where it lands at the walls. head height might be an issue with the dropped beam though. The other option is to start over with a heavier beam, you might could add a temp wall support for your joists and take the beam apart and add the new beam in building it piece by piece.


 
I see what your saying. 

What if the current beam is not sagging?

In reference to the two options. I think I would favor starting over.

Can you describe the added drop beam a little more? Sounds like you are adding 2x4's under the current beam and then supporting those at the outer wall with 2x4's?

How many 2 x 12's are we talking about for a a new beam?

Would you get them special cut at 19 feet? Would you splice them together like I did?


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> 19 ft span.. .id be going with a 3 ply 16" lvl


 
Can you explain more fully?


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

2x6 cant span that.. even with splices. ive used 3ply 2x6' headers for a 30" opening and thats it... 

for a long span such as that it really should be engineered


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> 2x6 cant span that.. even with splices. ive used 3ply 2x6' headers for a 30" opening and thats it...
> 
> for a long span such as that it really should be engineered


Engineered?

Do you mean getting a special made beam?


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Ok.

Lets review.

1. Take down everything.
2. Add additional studs to where the beam will be sitting.
3. Install 2 x 12's or a engineered beam.
4. Then add the joist hangers and joist.
5. Measure every joist before cutting.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Would it be a good idea to call these guys for a beam?


http://betterheader.com/default.asp


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Ok.
> 
> Lets review.
> 
> ...


yes to all except #3 imo. toe nail your joists to the new beam and then add hangers last. you can build the entire thing without hangers and add them in later. I simply do that because sometimes different tools are involved and I treat it as different steps but you can add the hangers as you go too.
Also, something not mentioned yet, where the load from the new beam lands what type of foundation do you have along the underside of the wall where the beam supports (2x4)are located, will it hold the weight in that spot for a beam to land there?



67velle said:


> Would it be a good idea to call these guys for a beam?
> 
> 
> http://betterheader.com/default.asp


This is getting into specialized engineering spec requirement territory, best to call you local lumber yard and have a beam specified to your situation. Just tell them your spans and loads and they should hook you up with an engineered beam to specs. people here on the forum will be guessing most likely but it is easy to overkill that beam by making it 3-16"x 20' lvl. you could drive a bus over that ceiling if it were 3 16" lvl. LOL :laughing:


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> yes to all except #3 imo. toe nail your joists to the new beam and then add hangers last. you can build the entire thing without hangers and add them in later. I simply do that because sometimes different tools are involved and I treat it as different steps but you can add the hangers as you go too.
> Also, something not mentioned yet, where the load from the new beam lands what type of foundation do you have along the underside of the wall where the beam supports (2x4)are located, will it hold the weight in that spot for a beam to land there?
> 
> As far as the foundation goes, I dont know. I dont know how thick the concrete is. The pad is concrete and the outer walls have a 2 x 6 that is bolted to the concrete with the studs nailed to the bottom board with a 2x6 for a header. The concrete appears to 4" to 5" thick. I can be sure that is not less than 3 inches. I dont recall, the beam may or may not sit directly above a stud.
> ...


Ok, the actual span from outside header to outside header is 18' 5 1/2". The actual garage is around 19 x 20 feet.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Ok, the actual span from outside header to outside header is 18' 5 1/2". The actual garage is around 19 x 20 feet.



A way that I've added strength to the foundaition aspect of the wall, ( around the bottom portion of the wall) to add available point load re enforcing is to add in a header cut in at the bottom of the wall that sits on top of the bottom plate and spans either direction of where the beam lands a specific amount . A slight issue with that though if not done correctly and fastened well is the shear of the wall in relation to the cut you made in the studs, it provides a pivot point for load placed on it and can twist from to much weight. metal straps or help with that...


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> yes to all except #3 imo. toe nail your joists to the new beam and then add hangers last. you can build the entire thing without hangers and add them in later. I simply do that because sometimes different tools are involved and I treat it as different steps but you can add the hangers as you go too.
> Also, something not mentioned yet, where the load from the new beam lands what type of foundation do you have along the underside of the wall where the beam supports (2x4)are located, will it hold the weight in that spot for a beam to land there?
> 
> 
> ...


Talk to the commerical sales down at Lowes, who use to be a contractor.

Upon measuring how much room I had on top of the header up to the support of the outside trusses. Anything taller than 12" would not work as it would hit the truss support.

He recommend a 1 3/4" 12" LVL. It covers 139 pounds per linear foot. Also supports 2641 pounds.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> A way that I've added strength to the foundaition aspect of the wall, ( around the bottom portion of the wall) to add available point load re enforcing is to add in a header cut in at the bottom of the wall that sits on top of the bottom plate and spans either direction of where the beam lands a specific amount . A slight issue with that though if not done correctly and fastened well is the shear of the wall in relation to the cut you made in the studs, it provides a pivot point for load placed on it and can twist from to much weight. metal straps or help with that...


Not sure I totally follow you there.

There is some 2x6 wood on top of the bottom plate, but it looks like it is just nailed to the bottom plate making it doubled up.

Could you fill up the entire area between studs with 2x6's?


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

1. You don't need wood framed ceiling to have insulation.
2. You could consider suspended ceiling. 
3. Use I-joists, if in the budget. Call the manufacturer and ask (their engineers will help you) what size is minimum required for 24" or even 48" on center placements for 1/2 or 5/8" sheetrock. You can use blocking in between to save some money on number of joists you need. Specify space above will be unused. Specify anything that will be part of the ceiling. Skylight, fans, lights. You may have to build inner wall to support new joists, or rim bands on existing wall and use joist hangers.
Span information may be available online. Look for info on dead load. That is weight of the material itself and maybe sheetrock, but nothing else sitting on the joists.
4. There is a chance that existing truss may also support hanging frame and you can put the sheetrock on it. I think it is worth the engineer's fee to find out.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

carpdad said:


> 1. You don't need wood framed ceiling to have insulation.
> 2. You could consider suspended ceiling.
> 3. Use I-joists, if in the budget. Call the manufacturer and ask (their engineers will help you) what size is minimum required for 24" or even 48" on center placements for 1/2 or 5/8" sheetrock. You can use blocking in between to save some money on number of joists you need. Specify space above will be unused. Specify anything that will be part of the ceiling. Skylight, fans, lights. You may have to build inner wall to support new joists, or rim bands on existing wall and use joist hangers.
> Span information may be available online. Look for info on dead load. That is weight of the material itself and maybe sheetrock, but nothing else sitting on the joists.
> 4. There is a chance that existing truss may also support hanging frame and you can put the sheetrock on it. I think it is worth the engineer's fee to find out.


What your suggesting is getting a little out of my relm.

I will consult with a engineer, however will the use of the LVL as my center beam be sufficent? Can I run normal lumber joist out to the walls and be ok?

I would like to keep this fairly simple. First time on doing stuff like this. i dont have alot of money to get this done with as Im working on a tight budget.

My main concern is getting a good solid center beam to support the lumber joist.

Is the idea I have ok if I replace the 2x6 center beam with a LVL?


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## dsharp (Dec 11, 2012)

http://www.texasforestproducts.com/so_pine/MAXspans2003_202.pdf 
I think you're over thinking this. If you look at the span tables a 2x8 or 2x10 will span the same direction as the trusses without using the center beam and joist hangers. If you're worried about the twist fasten or clamp a long 2x4 to the twisted beam, let it go past the beam so you can nail or block off the truss above it to hold it plumb until you get your joist hung. It going to take a helper and leave enough hanging down to get enough leverage on it. You could just nail 2x4 on 24" centers to the bottom of the scissor trusses then hang your sheet rock on that. If the farthest span is 32" between trusses a 2x4 should be fine. I would use 5/8" drywall. It wouldn't be flat but you'ld pick up some headroom. There are several ways to go about it.
http://www.texasforestproducts.com/so_pine/MAXspans2003_202.pdf


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

dsharp said:


> http://www.texasforestproducts.com/so_pine/MAXspans2003_202.pdf
> I think you're over thinking this. If you look at the span tables a 2x8 or 2x10 will span the same direction as the trusses without using the center beam and joist hangers. If you're worried about the twist fasten or clamp a long 2x4 to the twisted beam, let it go past the beam so you can nail or block off the truss above it to hold it plumb until you get your joist hung. It going to take a helper and leave enough hanging down to get enough leverage on it. You could just nail 2x4 on 24" centers to the bottom of the scissor trusses then hang your sheet rock on that. If the farthest span is 32" between trusses a 2x4 should be fine. I would use 5/8" drywall. It wouldn't be flat but you'ld pick up some headroom. There are several ways to go about it.


Basically, what your saying is you can use a 2x8 or 2x10 that is cut to go across the room without a center beam. The lumber would run in the same direction as the trusses.

I dont follow what your saying about the 2x4's and the twisted beam though.

Your also saying you could nail 2x4's to the bottom of those trusses, run them perp. to the trusses and put them 24" on centers. If I did this, were would you put your boxes for lights and fans?


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## dsharp (Dec 11, 2012)

For the lights, the boxes nail to the sides of the framing. Leave the box sticking out 1/2 or 5/8 depending on sheetrock thickness so the box sits flush when the ceiling is installed. For ceiling fans you have to put framing behind the box to hold the extra weigh, Example would be a 2x4 across the top of the bottom chord of 2 trusses that are installed. You would have to add a 1/2" of plywood under the box so it's flush with installed ceiling. The boxes are 1 1/2" deep. Run the wire in through the side of the box. For the twist - Your using the long 2x4 like a "cheater pipe". Take a long 2x4 and put it up the side of the 2x6 far enough to reach past the bottom of the truss. Screww the 2x4 to the twisted 2x6 and pull the twist out. The top of the 2x4 is going to move in the opposite direction. When the twist is out screw a block on the truss to hold the load of the 2x4 so your helper can let go. You could put a c clamp on the bottom of a wall stud and tie the 2x4 (cheater pipe) to the clamp to hold straight while you hang the joists. Wet treated wood was not the best choice due to it's weight but if that's what you had I understand that too. If you still can't get it pictured in your mind let me know


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> Not sure I totally follow you there.
> 
> There is some 2x6 wood on top of the bottom plate, but it looks like it is just nailed to the bottom plate making it doubled up.
> 
> Could you fill up the entire area between studs with 2x6's?


the idea is to put in a header at the lower portion of the wall to help spread the weight from the point load of the beam( the point load is the 2x's that make up the vertical support located under the beam in the 2 outer walls that the beam lands on). 2x10 header that goes 6 feet in either direction from center making it 12' total would provide more point load support than the uncertain foundation under the wall now. 

putting one central point load down onto a header sitting on the bottom plates will help to spread the load placed on the foundation in that one specific spot. cut the header length so that it is tight to the inside of both wall studs at both ends of the header,plan on somewhere around 12' long depending on stud layout.

edit, just re read some... there are many opinions here so to make it simple, you have the ceiling joists already bought and paid for so you really only need a new beam and possible add in wall header for the point load of the beam on both outer walls. 
3-20' x 12" lvl with that weight rating (6,640 lbs) should be plenty strong for 400 sq foot of 5/8" drywall with no attic access.
Or, figure out if 20' long 2x12 SYP will be suffice for full length joists though you already have joist material bought... decisions,decisions


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

Span, load, size, aside, when you install the joists you should install in pairs. Installing all the joists on one side, no matter what material, is an offset load. Any beam will have a tendency to tip, top toward the load, leaving a gap at the bottom on the loaded side. Laminated beams can allow the one piece on the loaded side to separate at the top from the others. I have seen 24" LVL's do it even bolted and glued. Proper installation method is still important no matter how good the technology gets.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

dsharp said:


> For the lights, the boxes nail to the sides of the framing. Leave the box sticking out 1/2 or 5/8 depending on sheetrock thickness so the box sits flush when the ceiling is installed. For ceiling fans you have to put framing behind the box to hold the extra weigh, Example would be a 2x4 across the top of the bottom chord of 2 trusses that are installed. You would have to add a 1/2" of plywood under the box so it's flush with installed ceiling. The boxes are 1 1/2" deep. Run the wire in through the side of the box. For the twist - Your using the long 2x4 like a "cheater pipe". Take a long 2x4 and put it up the side of the 2x6 far enough to reach past the bottom of the truss. Screww the 2x4 to the twisted 2x6 and pull the twist out. The top of the 2x4 is going to move in the opposite direction. When the twist is out screw a block on the truss to hold the load of the 2x4 so your helper can let go. You could put a c clamp on the bottom of a wall stud and tie the 2x4 (cheater pipe) to the clamp to hold straight while you hang the joists. Wet treated wood was not the best choice due to it's weight but if that's what you had I understand that too. If you still can't get it pictured in your mind let me know


I gotcha. Thanks.

When the electrical comes up I will be asking more questions.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> the idea is to put in a header at the lower portion of the wall to help spread the weight from the point load of the beam( the point load is the 2x's that make up the vertical support located under the beam in the 2 outer walls that the beam lands on). 2x10 header that goes 6 feet in either direction from center making it 12' total would provide more point load support than the uncertain foundation under the wall now.
> 
> putting one central point load down onto a header sitting on the bottom plates will help to spread the load placed on the foundation in that one specific spot. cut the header length so that it is tight to the inside of both wall studs at both ends of the header,plan on somewhere around 12' long depending on stud layout.
> 
> ...


 
I think I know what your talking about.

There is something like that about 4 feet up. There is a 2x6 nailed between each stud. The studs are 16" centers.

I ordered today a 1 3/4" -20' x12" lvl today. Man at Lowes says it is very strong for my application.


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

Duckweather said:


> Span, load, size, aside, when you install the joists you should install in pairs. Installing all the joists on one side, no matter what material, is an offset load. Any beam will have a tendency to tip, top toward the load, leaving a gap at the bottom on the loaded side. Laminated beams can allow the one piece on the loaded side to separate at the top from the others. I have seen 24" LVL's do it even bolted and glued. Proper installation method is still important no matter how good the technology gets.


Can you work opposite? Like install one joist and then go to the opposite side and opposite end? Working toward the opposite ends....going back and forth?


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

67velle said:


> I think I know what your talking about.
> 
> There is something like that about 4 feet up. There is a 2x6 nailed between each stud. The studs are 16" centers.
> 
> I ordered today a 1 3/4" -20' x12" lvl today. Man at Lowes says it is very strong for my application.


one lone lvl may not even be as strong as the 2x6 beam you have up now. it needs to be at least two lvl's nailed like crazy together to form the beam or three would make it even better than that.. lvl nail patterns are something like 5 nail placement sets every 12 to 16" apart,then done the same way from the other side of the beam except offset from the first nail pattern


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

hand drive said:


> one lone lvl may not even be as strong as the 2x6 beam you have up now. it needs to be at least two lvl's nailed like crazy together to form the beam or three would make it even better than that.. lvl nail patterns are something like 5 nail placement sets every 12 to 16" apart,then done the same way from the other side of the beam except offset from the first nail pattern


Ill ask more questions....


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## dsharp (Dec 11, 2012)

Put a joist on each side in the middle of the beam. Before you toenail the joists to the wall sight down the top of the lvl to make sure its not bowed then nail it down. Put another pair 1/2 way between the first set on each end and so forth. You want to install in pairs to equal out the forces.


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

67velle said:


> Can you work opposite? Like install one joist and then go to the opposite side and opposite end? Working toward the opposite ends....going back and forth?


If you continue from one end to the other on one side and the opposite way on the other, you will be loading both sides 1/2 the length. Now you may get each half of the beam twisting in opposite directions. It won't have as much affect, but still not as good starting from any point and installing in pairs


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## 67velle (Sep 7, 2012)

I gotcha. Those last two tips are very good.

How about tieing in the beam to a 2 x 6 up above the beam, the 2 x 6 ties all the trusses together.

This should help it not sag and give it some more strength.


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