# Solar questions



## Master Brian

1st, What happens when you install panels on the roof? Basically, what happens to the shingles underneath? The reason I ask is I live in Kansas and we tend to get lots of hail. Because of this, most people probably get new roofs every 6-10yrs it seems and of course our insurance premiums reflect this. The problem I see is companies don't want to insure an asphalt roof that is over 15yrs old, some don't like 10yr old roofs and add on top of that you get dinged due to age if they are in that range. Point, is, I'm guessing if you have roof mounted panels, the shingles would likely last longer than otherwise, but what does that do if a hail storm comes along and takes out the rest of the roof? Does the whole system have to be removed? What's typical on a situation like that?

2nd, I'm trying to figure out how large of a system I'd need to power our house. Trying to decide if it's feasible to keep looking at the solar option. I don't have enough yard to put panels there, so it'd have to go on my roof(s). 

My current usage is about 1700kWh per month. What would I need to meet that demand? I've tried looking online, but I get lost in some of what they say.


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## ddawg16

I would be asking those questions with the Solar provider....

Next....drive around and look for houses with solar....then knock on the door and ask them the same questions.


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## Oso954

Solar panels are surprisingly resistant to hail damage, but damage does happen. I would suggest that you talk to your insurance agent as to whether the panels are covered, is a special rider or endorsement required, additional cost,if any,etc.


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## LeakyHawaiiRoof

I can't answer the hail question, but I can give you a very general estimate of how to calculate what sort of system you would need.

Your yearly electricity usage is 20,400 kWh (1700 kWh/month x 12 months)

This comes out to 55.89 kWh per day (20,400 kWh per year / 365 days per year) 

From various solar maps, I see that Kansas gets about 4.5 to 5.5 sun hours per day. Not knowing exactly where you live, I'm just going to assume your roof gets 5.0 sun hours per day. Note that if your roof faces south or is surrounded by lots of trees, this number would be less. 

55.89 kWh per day / 5.0 sun hours per day = about 11 kWh per sun hour

So, in other words, you need a system with a capacity of about 11 kW. 

Since the average solar panel has a capacity of about 250 W (or .250 kW), you need 11 kW / 0.250 kW = 44 panels. 

Also using the 11,000 W number (same as 11 kW) and the average cost of $3 per watt, would mean your system would cost about $33,000. Less the 30% federal tax credit and the cost is $23,100.

I see that the average cost of electricity in Kansas is $0.105 per kWh. This means your annual electricity bill is $2142.

Under a very basic math equation, ($23,100 / $2142 per year), the payback on your system would be about 10 years and 9 months.

Note that this assumes your system would qualify for net metering and there are no other monetary incentives (aka state tax credits) for purchasing a system.

Also, you may want to purchase more panels because a 250 W panel will usually produce less than 250 W even under direct full sun.

See also: https://solarpowerrocks.com/kansas/


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## Bud9051

Hi Brian,
I remembered an article I read not that long ago and think it might be something those of you in hail country might be interested. Some work by MIT using vertical solar panels:
http://news.mit.edu/2012/three-dimensional-solar-energy-0327
I had initially liked the article for people who have very limited space, but configuring them vertically might provide some protection from mother nature as well. There might even be the opportunity to shield them from above, at least a little. When I searched there were several articles so might be some good reading.

Bud


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## Master Brian

Well, the panels would be covered by insurance and yes they'd need to be listed to increase my coverage A amount to cover them. I'm not as worried about that cost as I would be about the roof structure under the shingles. I've been debating what I will go with on next go around as far as shingles/roof covering, but that's a different discussion all together. I'm guessing a large portion of cost of solar is install and thus if the panels, and roof covering, survived a hail storm but the rest of roof didn't, I could get stuck with mis-matched 'shingles'. 

The cost is extremely expensive at this point to go solar, at least totally, but it's something I think is what should be happening and it'd be great to stop being monopolized by our current eclectic system. 

I also can't really see why our usage is so high compared to the national average. Being an old house I know there are several knocks against us, but I've slowly been trying to eliminate those items and yet cost sends to stay the same.....hmmmm! I've insulated 90% of main floor, installed high quality storm Windows, insulated 80% of basement, upgraded to mostly LED lighting, a few cfls and one or two incandescent bulbs always seem to remain. The remaining percentages are slowly being worked on. 2nd floor is also being worked on as a third of that is questionable installation as well as electric heat and air from inefficient units such as window ac's/baseboard heater. Plan is mini split unit zoned for each room. 

I guess what I need to do is go back and look at usage not cost over the last half dozen years and see if that's improved. I also think maybe an expandable system would be the best way to gain foothold as I'm hoping the usage decreases and efficiency increases in the house.

My current garage has a south facing roof and I plan to install larger garage behind it with south facing roof and thus those would eliminate most of panels from house and thus from mis-matched house roof with concern above.


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## mske390

1st, What happens when you install panels on the roof? Basically, what happens to the shingles underneath? The reason I ask is I live in Kansas and we tend to get lots of hail.

I'm not entirely following your question, what do you mean what will happen with the shingles underneath? They are underneath so wouldn't the hail hit the panels first protecting the shingles extending their life?

As for the size of system does your electric company buy back excess electricity generated? If so, and you can afford it put the largest system up there that you can and that the roof will hold. mind as well have the system pay you back.

"I guess what I need to do is go back and look at usage not cost over the last half dozen years and see if that's improved. "

You always need to look at usage not just cost, remember that there are two parts to your bill; generation and transmission. So when comparing the rate for solar make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. 

Been a long time since I looked at residential elec bill but there is typically a demand charge in there whether called demand or a tariff that will impact your cost and should go down after solar. If you are trying to make a financial justification make sure to include that.


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## Master Brian

The reason I question what happens to shingles is....I realize those shingles would be protected and life extended, what bothers me then is that with a hail storm, I might lose the shingles on north and east side of house because they aren't covered up, but the others would remain.....I'm worried about mis-matched roof! 

If on a garage behind house it wouldn't be a huge issue. I guess I'm kind of wondering how people deal with this. I have a 1-1/2 story bungalow with pretty long and fairly steep roof lines. Mis-matched roof would be very noticeable, but I also wouldn't mount panels on the front portions so maybe a non-i
ssue.


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## Flannel Guy DIY

you would want to have a newer roof before installing the panels. Then you get the solar company to provide some kind of guarantee on their installation and if it creates a leak


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## jeff00

LeakyHawaiiRoof said:


> I can't answer the hail question, but I can give you a very general estimate of how to calculate what sort of system you would need.
> 
> Your yearly electricity usage is 20,400 kWh (1700 kWh/month x 12 months)
> 
> This comes out to 55.89 kWh per day (20,400 kWh per year / 365 days per year)
> 
> From various solar maps, I see that Kansas gets about 4.5 to 5.5 sun hours per day. Not knowing exactly where you live, I'm just going to assume your roof gets 5.0 sun hours per day. Note that if your roof faces south or is surrounded by lots of trees, this number would be less.
> 
> 55.89 kWh per day / 5.0 sun hours per day = about 11 kWh per sun hour
> 
> So, in other words, you need a system with a capacity of about 11 kW.
> 
> Since the average solar panel has a capacity of about 250 W (or .250 kW), you need 11 kW / 0.250 kW = 44 panels.
> 
> Also using the 11,000 W number (same as 11 kW) and the average cost of $3 per watt, would mean your system would cost about $33,000. Less the 30% federal tax credit and the cost is $23,100.
> 
> I see that the average cost of electricity in Kansas is $0.105 per kWh. This means your annual electricity bill is $2142.
> 
> Under a very basic math equation, ($23,100 / $2142 per year), the payback on your system would be about 10 years and 9 months.
> 
> Note that this assumes your system would qualify for net metering and there are no other monetary incentives (aka state tax credits) for purchasing a system.
> 
> Also, you may want to purchase more panels because a 250 W panel will usually produce less than 250 W even under direct full sun.
> 
> See also: https://solarpowerrocks.com/kansas/


this thread is from last year, but Im going to suggest whatever you come up with for a total Kwh (in this case, 11Kw) I would double it. 

Solar panels generate electricity even on cloudy days. I have 606 watts on my cabin in the Adirondacks, with a Morningstar 45amp MPPT charge controler. Even when it's raining my panels will produce 3 or 4 amps to charge batteries. 

On top of that, that 5 hours of sun per day only accounts for a perfectly sunny, cloudless day. If you have clouds, your panels produce less. AND what if a cloud only covers a portion of your solar array? a larger solar array would allow you to produce electricity even on cloudy and rainy days.

Also keep in mind, the hotter a panels gets, the less efficient it becomes


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## LawnGuyLandSparky

jeff00 said:


> this thread is from last year, but Im going to suggest whatever you come up with for a total Kwh (in this case, 11Kw) I would double it.
> 
> Solar panels generate electricity even on cloudy days. I have 606 watts on my cabin in the Adirondacks, with a Morningstar 45amp MPPT charge controler. Even when it's raining my panels will produce 3 or 4 amps to charge batteries.
> 
> On top of that, that 5 hours of sun per day only accounts for a perfectly sunny, cloudless day. If you have clouds, your panels produce less. AND what if a cloud only covers a portion of your solar array? a larger solar array would allow you to produce electricity even on cloudy and rainy days.
> 
> Also keep in mind, the hotter a panels gets, the less efficient it becomes


Just understand that a lot of the solar programs where you get tax credits and net metering from the utility will only allow you to install and connect a limited number of solar watts to the system. I believe it's based on historic usage but allows for estimated calculations for new builds. Utilities want to make sure your system isn't going to become an income generator for the customer, and the net metering agreements often allow for credits that can carry over month to month, but whatever you end up with as a credit at the end of your annual contract is lost.


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## Flannel Guy DIY

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Just understand that a lot of the solar programs where you get tax credits and net metering from the utility will only allow you to install and connect a limited number of solar watts to the system. I believe it's based on historic usage but allows for estimated calculations for new builds. Utilities want to make sure your system isn't going to become an income generator for the customer, and the net metering agreements often allow for credits that can carry over month to month, but whatever you end up with as a credit at the end of your annual contract is lost.


which is why I said that the government is not taking solar seriously. They are still protecting the utility companies as well as the solar install companies who continue to inflate the costs based upon the amount of federal assistance that is available.


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## jeff00

If ~~~~ *IF* ~~~~ I install a solar system on my house in Rochester, i will be doing it on my own. I will have a grid tie system to avoid government interference but it will be with a battery bank. Im not interested in making money off the system. All i want to do is turn the meter off and run on my own power. I want to tell the power company to go screw. 

This is my cabin with the solar panels. The pix from the lake is an old picture.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> which is why I said that the government is not taking solar seriously. They are still protecting the utility companies as well as the solar install companies who continue to inflate the costs based upon the amount of federal assistance that is available.


If a homeowner was allowed to build and connect a system that generates income for them, then the consumer has turned himself into a business, or, a supplier as it were. That should not be the goal of government assistance programs.

The utility, believe it or not, must be kept viable and financially liquid. It's a necessary part of the solar program. There are many consumers who simply cannot go solar because they're in apartments, or they're high usage but relatively small footprint (little or no land space or rooftop space) 

Without the utility and everyone connected to a common grid, the solar output from your roof, when you're not consuming it, needs a reliable grid to connect to and therefore sell you're excess to someone who needs it in real time. This is how the utility's other customers act as a solar producer's "battery." 

Everyone benefits because often when solar generation is at it's highest, it's also when the local grid is taxed the most with all the a/c running. If the solar program prevents the need to build or re-fit a power plant, all of it's customers come out ahead. 

If everyone who could did connect to the grid and did so in such a way that the utility was never able to bill them for usage or, had to consistently refund them money for overproduction credits, then where is the utility going to get the funds necessary to maintain the entire grid infrastructure necessary to make grid-tie possible?


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## LawnGuyLandSparky

jeff00 said:


> If ~~~~ IF ~~~~ I install a solar system on my house in Rochester, i will be doing it on my own. * I will have a grid tie system* to avoid government interference but it will be with a battery bank. Im not interested in making money off the system. *All i want to do is turn the meter off and run on my own power.* I want to tell the power company to go screw.
> 
> This is my cabin with the solar panels. The pix from the lake is an old picture.


I'm confused.


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## jeff00

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm confused.


the grid tie would only be to satisfy the government, I would not utilize the tie-in. it would simply be there. 

I really just want to break free from the overbearing oppression of the power company because they esentially have everyone by the gonads.

I just got my utility bill today. for the last 6 months the power company has been estimating my electric, now my electric bill is three times what I normally pay. I have no idea why they have been estimating it, my wife is home all the time. :vs_mad:


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## Flannel Guy DIY

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm confused.


Me too and that does not happen often


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## KPDMinc

jeff00 said:


> this thread is from last year, but Im going to suggest whatever you come up with for a total Kwh (in this case, 11Kw) I would double it.
> 
> Solar panels generate electricity even on cloudy days. I have 606 watts on my cabin in the Adirondacks, with a Morningstar 45amp MPPT charge controler. Even when it's raining my panels will produce 3 or 4 amps to charge batteries.
> 
> On top of that, that 5 hours of sun per day only accounts for a perfectly sunny, cloudless day. If you have clouds, your panels produce less. AND what if a cloud only covers a portion of your solar array? a larger solar array would allow you to produce electricity even on cloudy and rainy days.
> 
> Also keep in mind, the hotter a panels gets, the less efficient it becomes



Many municipalities need to approve the system size. Mine for example, would only approve 18 panels at 290 watts each. They dont want to owe you at the true up period, not that they pay squat...


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## Oso954

Are you sure it's a money reason vs something else ?
Unless you have a muni utility, I don't see a reason. Why would a city worry about true up with SDG&E?

My county and the cities in it, do "limit" the solar system by physical size. There are setback areas or panel free zones from the roof edge, the ridge, hips or valleys, etc to allow firemen to have access to the roof and to allow venting during fires.

Between the roof design and the panel size, it does limit the total kW that can be placed on it.


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## KPDMinc

Oso954 said:


> Are you sure it's a money reason vs something else ?
> Unless you have a muni utility, I don't see a reason. Why would a city worry about true up with SDG&E?
> 
> My county and the cities in it, do "limit" the solar system by physical size. There are setback areas or panel free zones from the roof edge, the ridge, hips or valleys, etc to allow firemen to have access to the roof and to allow venting during fires.
> 
> Between the roof design and the panel size, it does limit the total kW that can be placed on it.


I could have easily put double the number of panels on my roof and still met the setbacks. SDGE bases approval on the past 12 months usage.

I meant utility, not municipality...


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## jeff00

KPDMinc said:


> Many municipalities need to approve the system size. Mine for example, would only approve 18 panels at 290 watts each. They dont want to owe you at the true up period, not that they pay squat...


another reason to move into the deep woods and put up as many panels as you want and tell the government to go screw


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## add50317

if you are worried about non matching shingles go the extra mile and do a metal roof. They have ridges to connect the panels to already-no drilling.


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## Deja-vue

Before I installed Solar panels, i replaced every light bulb in the House with the new LED Lights, and I mean every single one of them. Including 16 Neon tubes in my Garage.
That brought my Bill down from $295/month to $245/month. I couldn't believe it. So much money saved.
In 2013, I got a new Roof, so I was ok there. I installed my Solar panels myself (with help of a Roofer and an Electrician).
Did all the running around myself, where to get the best deal on the panels, the Inverters, mounts, Permits, etc.
44 Panels is what I did. 11.43 KWp total.
In summer, I produce between 50-75 KW/h per day. Way too much for me, so Net-metering kicks in. All of the over-production goes to the Power-company.
And here in California, they pay a measly $0.4/KW/h. Whatever. Got rid of my old Gas-dryer, bought a Electric Dryer. Bought an electric Kettle, etc.

Never had a Hail Storm here in California, ( being from Germany I know what they are like) but those panels can take a lot of beating. Just go to youtube.com and search for Solar panel Hail storm.

The System has been running for a couple of years now, no problems at all.
Power company still charges me a $10 "connection fee", but been getting some Refund Checks once a year between $200-$350.
Soon I'll be adding a Battery, to be even more independent.
Only thing I regret is not having it done earlier. My System will have paid for itself around 2020.
Oh, and I got the 30% Tax break from the Feds, that helped a lot.
All financed by myself, installed by myself with some help of course.
Saved a bundle.
My $0.02.
:smile:


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## Deja-vue

Deja-vue said:


> Before I installed Solar panels, i replaced every light bulb in the House with the new LED Lights, and I mean every single one of them. Including 16 Neon tubes in my Garage.
> That brought my Bill down from $295/month to $245/month. I couldn't believe it. So much money saved.
> In 2013, I got a new Roof, so I was ok there. I installed my Solar panels myself (with help of a Roofer and an Electrician).
> Did all the running around myself, where to get the best deal on the panels, the Inverters, mounts, Permits, etc.
> 44 Panels is what I did. 11.43 KWp total.
> In summer, I produce between 50-75 KW/h per day. Way too much for me, so Net-metering kicks in. All of the over-production goes to the Power-company.
> And here in California, they pay a measly $0.4/KW/h. Whatever. Got rid of my old Gas-dryer, bought a Electric Dryer. Bought an electric Kettle, etc.
> 
> Never had a Hail Storm here in California, ( being from Germany I know what they are like) but those panels can take a lot of beating. Just go to youtube.com and search for Solar panel Hail storm.
> 
> The System has been running for a couple of years now, no problems at all.
> Power company still charges me a $10 "connection fee", but been getting some Refund Checks once a year between $200-$350.
> Soon I'll be adding a Battery, to be even more independent.
> Only thing I regret is not having it done earlier. My System will have paid for itself around 2020.
> Oh, and I got the 30% Tax break from the Feds, that helped a lot.
> All financed by myself, installed by myself with some help of course.
> Saved a bundle.
> My $0.02.
> :smile:


 
YouTube Video here about hail storm:


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