# Florescent ballast, commercial or residential?



## fuzzball03 (Dec 13, 2011)

rjniles said:


> Yesterday my kitchen light went out (4 - 4 foot, 32 watt T8 lamps about 5 years old). Tested - had power to fixture, no output from the ballast (dead ballast). Also had a cracked tombstone. Stopped at Home Depot this AM and picked up a ballast and a replacement tombstone. GE ballast, the only one they had for 4 T8 lamps. Got home replaced the shunted tombstone and the ballast, light works fine.
> 
> Now the hook:
> Glanced at the bottom of the instruction sheet and read
> ...


Class A is for "commercial" EMI requirements
Class B is the "Consumer" EMI requirements

Personally, I wouldn't worry for a second. I run the same ballasts in my shop lights.

This is why it's considered a "Class A" non-cosumer device:

["RF lighting devices produce light by using RF energy to stimulate gases contained inside a lamp. In 1985, the Commission classified RF lighting devices as Part 18 Industrial, Scientific, and Medical (ISM) equipment and adopted rules to control the harmful interference to radio communications services from such devices.1 The current Part 18 rules for RF lighting devices specify AC power line-conducted emissions limits between 450 kHz and 30 MHz and radiated emissions limits between 30 MHz and 1 GHz. Part 18 specifies different emissions limits for consumer and non-consumer RF lighting equipment. Consumer ISM equipment is equipment that is used or intended to be used by the general public in a residential environment.2 Non-consumer ISM equipment is equipment that is used in commercial and industrial environments."]

Above from...
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...9/fcc99135.pdf


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## fuzzball03 (Dec 13, 2011)

One other note. if you actually come across issues with EMI/RFI, lowes has Class B ballasts:
reb-2p32-n http://www.yourballast.com/en/up/updown/719201126082845.pdf
and 
reb-4p32-n http://yourballast.com/en/up/updown/719201126176759.pdf


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

fuzzball03 said:


> ...RF lighting devices produce light by using RF energy to stimulate gases contained inside a lamp....


Basically, these new "electronic" ballasts are a transmitter of radio waves. They can and will cause radio interference in some receivers. 

I'm not sure that the extra EMF lurking about is worth the energy savings of the electronic ballasts, however.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Haven't read any posts yet. 

But to be honest, only diff is that it emits radio waves. That, and if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s). 

As far as funciton, not much to worry about, as far as insurance goes, just don't have an electrical fire, ever. And you should be good. That, and don't have any fires in your kitchen, because if that ballast blows from the gases etc. that's HAZMAT, which could void your home owners insurance as well, because you put a commercial grade ballast in a residential environment.

Other than that, nothing to worry about TBH. (aside from whether or not it voids your home owners insurance having it connected)


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

BigGuy01 said:


> ...if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s). ...


While that statement may sound legitimate, in practice I have never heard of an instance where that was actually enforced.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> While that statement may sound legitimate, in practice I have never heard of an instance where that was actually enforced.


Keep in mind, Insurance Company's do not want to pay, and they will find any excuse they can to not have to pay. When they do have to pay, they will find someone to sue for their money back + Interest. 

It's just something to think about. 

If you haven't noticed, I'm very big when it comes to liability... I know on State Properties, if it's coded as residential, only residential grade products are permitted in it/on that property. If it's coded commercial, only commercial products may be used. 

Landlords at least in my state, aren't permitted to use non-residential grade items for any property's if they are renting them out to other people. 

My fams home owners insurance, states it will be void if we have any commercial grade electrical or plumbing assemblies. I.e. if we are found to even have a urinal in the home, entire home owners insurance is void. 

Commercial grade toilets are not allowed, we can't even put in a commercial wash sink. (the one with three bins, etc) And we can't put in commercial grade outdoor lighting fixtures. To do that for us, voids the entire insurance policy. 

When a house catches fire, or anytime a fire inspector, or anyone who comes in to document/record damages to a home that is filing with an insurance company for an insurance claim, 99 out of 100 things they are looking for, are reasons to not have to pay for damages. 

That commercial ballast can be ammunition an insurance company could use if it doesn't say it's ok to use with residential property.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Keep in mind, Insurance Company's do not want to pay, and they will find any excuse they can to not have to pay. When they do have to pay, they will find someone to sue for their money back + Interest.
> 
> It's just something to think about.
> 
> ...


what kind of wacked out insurance company do you have?
Spec grade/commercial grade materials are much better built than the cheap stuff you buy at the corner hardware store :whistling2:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> what kind of wacked out insurance company do you have?
> Spec grade/commercial grade materials are much better built than the cheap stuff you buy at the corner hardware store :whistling2:


No argument from me at all.

But quite frankly, there are a lot of home insurance company's that will not cover with commercial grade.

Because commercial grade plumbing fixtures for instance, like commercial grade toilets, etc. have higher GPF than residential. So take smore water etc. etc. to work with. Which voids homeowners insurance, because water damages they can claim are because of "too much stress" on the residential plumbing system. Commercial Showers have higher flow rates. Which actually violate residential plumbing codes. But then on the flip side, residential plumbing fixtures are too "weak" and don't meet commercial plumbing codes.

Can't do commercial grade water heater, because it sucks in too much power. VOids home owners because they can say the power it sucks up put too much strain on your electrical system.

List goes on. Even my Grandmothers home owners insurance packet, has a small book to it (100+ pages) listing items/modifications she cannot do to her own home (aka what I can't do to her home) without voiding insurance policy. 

Commercial grade equipment is designed for mass use, mass operation, etc. Definitely higher quality than residential products, but they put greater demand on a residential system that insurance company's can claim caused such and such issues.

It's why for STate Properties (properties owned by the State which the state leases out) if they are coded commercial, only commercial products may be used. If they are coded residential, only residential products may be used.

It's all about liability and what an insurance company can claim. If it was rated for both residential, and commercial (which would be ideal for home DIYers to use, are products graded for both Residential, and Commercial) I wouldn't see anything wrong at all.

But again, I'm just looking at it from a liability perspective. Functionally it's totally fine and dandy, just worth thinking about insurance side of things, and what a company would say if they found products in a home that specifically state "Commercial Use Only".


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

I deal with lots of insurance companys ,especially on residential propertys for sale that are nailed by hack home inspectors that wouldnt know a plumbing or electrical code violation if you smacked them in the head with the book.
Most insurance inspectors ive seen walk through a property before theyll insure it will walk over to the front of service panel and want to know if its a 100a service,they dont even want to look inside of it.
Ive never seen one walk through a house and look at what kind of toilet or shower head you have,as long as the property meets local building codes theres not a whole lot they can legally say about the property being over built.
If I decide to run all the wiring in my house in threaded rigid conduit and run oversized #10 wire to every plug in my house with spec grade 20a plugs is my insurance company going to drop me? I doubt it very much :no::laughing:


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> No argument from me at all.
> 
> But quite frankly, there are a lot of home insurance company's that will not cover with commercial grade.
> 
> ...


Again you are reading too many books without having experience to back it up! I would like to see in writing an example of when an insurance company did not pay a claim because commercial grade materials were used in a residential situation! I won't waste a lot of time waiting because I'm sure you won't be able to find any.


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## davido30093 (Jan 1, 2011)

> That, and if your house ever burns down and is discovered that you had that installed, and it was an electrical short, or anything electrical what so ever that caused your house to catch on fire, even if it wasn't that ballast, your home owners wont cover any damages at all, because they'll have "No way of knowing" how mixing commercial and residential grade electrical fixtures may have impacted your homes electrical circuit(s).


Total BS. The insurance company cannot disallow the claim unless they can prove that the device caused the fire. There are plenty of competent professionals that can testify that that device in and of itself would not cause a safety hazard. I agree that insurance companies look for an excuse to deny a claim, but they do have to prove their point, sometimes in a court of law.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> Again you are reading too many books without having experience to back it up! I would like to see in writing an example of when an insurance company did not pay a claim because commercial grade materials were used in a residential situation! I won't waste a lot of time waiting because I'm sure you won't be able to find any.


I got even better, want to call up your home owners insurance company and ask what they say if you use commercial use only light fixtures in your home?:thumbsup:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

davido30093 said:


> Total BS. The insurance company cannot disallow the claim unless they can prove that the device caused the fire. There are plenty of competent professionals that can testify that that device in and of itself would not cause a safety hazard. I agree that insurance companies look for an excuse to deny a claim, but they do have to prove their point, sometimes in a court of law.


That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload. 

Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one. 

NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault. 

Feel free to call up and ask your own home insurance company and ask them if they would cover damages if you had commercial use only products installed in your home. 

That's the best way to prove my point.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Ive got a meeting with one sometime next week once I finish fixing the current bunch of handy/hackman repairs on a customers rental property theyre trying to insure,Ill make sure to point out the cast iron waste/vent stack and sq-d 100a QO panel I installed.
Same unit I install in commercial buildings :thumbsup:
Did you know that many cities and insurance companys consider rental properties to be commercial properties whether theyre a house or building?:whistling2:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> Ive got a meeting with one sometime next week once I finish fixing the current bunch of *handy/hackman repairs* on a customers rental property theyre trying to insure,Ill make sure to point out the cast iron waste/vent stack and sq-d 100a QO panel I installed.
> Same unit I install in commercial buildings :thumbsup:
> Did you know that many cities and insurance companys consider rental properties to be commercial properties whether theyre a house or building?:whistling2:


If in your area it's zoned as commercial, can't see anything wrong with that if it's coded as commercial vs residential. But the topic was more regarding appliances/fixtures that are of commercial grade. And Cast Iron Waste/vent stacks and QO panels meet residential code. They are allowed for Residential Use, they even in the UPC as being good to go for residential. It just means they have a bigger/stronger hole to dump unpressurized water into.

That's awesome none the less.


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## davido30093 (Jan 1, 2011)

> That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.


That would be very hard, because the insurance company must prove that the device caused the problem. What an uninformed insurance company could do, if they somehow discovered the commercial ballast, is they could cancel your policy because it doesn't comply with a clause in their policy. That is not likely because they do not want to loose a customer. What they could NOT do is deny the claim without proving that the device caused the fire.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.
> 
> Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one.
> 
> ...


So does a commercial water heater use more energy than 2 residential water heaters run in series or parallel with each other? 
Lots of houses with 2 water heaters out there,better tell them their insurance is void.
Lots of houses out there with 1" water services ,putting extra load on all those old sewers that are used to 1/2" water service,there goes your insurance!
Lots of houses out there with metal pop-ups under sink,commercial grade stuff not plastic like residential! 
Oh crap I think theres some L copper in my plumbing,not m copper like residential there goes my insurance! 
Uh oh,mercury in light bulbs better get haz mat ! there goes everybodys insurance! :laughing:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

davido30093 said:


> That would be very hard, because the insurance company must prove that the device caused the problem. What an uninformed insurance company could do, if they somehow discovered the commercial ballast, is they could cancel your policy because it doesn't comply with a clause in their policy. That is not likely because they do not want to loose a customer. What they could NOT do is deny the claim without proving that the device caused the fire.


Shelling out $200k+ for a new home, or lose $3k a year for losing a customer, which is the bigger loss?

And FYI, I'll be waiting for you to call your home owners insurance company, and will be waiting for the answer. :thumbsup:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> If in your area it's zoned as commercial, can't see anything wrong with that if it's coded as commercial vs residential. But the topic was more regarding appliances/fixtures that are of commercial grade. And Cast Iron Waste/vent stacks and QO panels meet residential code. They are allowed for Residential Use, they even in the UPC as being good to go for residential. It just means they have a bigger/stronger hole to dump unpressurized water into.
> 
> That's awesome none the less.


bigger stronger hole?
i didnt realize there was differance in the inside diameter of cast iron pipe versus pvc! :laughing:
after 30 years in the trades i thought it was the wall thickness/o.d that was differant! :laughing:
I really must get a maintenance job so I can learn up on these things! :laughing:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> So does a commercial water heater use more energy than 2 residential water heaters run in series or parallel with each other?
> Lots of houses with 2 water heaters out there,better tell them their insurance is void.
> Lots of houses out there with 1" water services ,putting extra load on all those old sewers that are used to 1/2" water service,there goes your insurance!
> Lots of houses out there with metal pop-ups under sink,commercial grade stuff not plastic like residential!
> ...


1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.

2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.

3. Metal pop ups for a sink, are residential, and commercial grade. Fail to see the point you're trying to make? 

4. L Copper was used for Residential application for a very long time. Depends how long ago it was put in vs when it became out of code.

5. WHy would you have mercury in your light bulbs? 

Also, to add to the water ordeal, if you're talking about the water main, you have two sides of it. The cities/utility side, and then the residential/home owners side or commercial entitites side. They don't have to match, provided each side is appropriate for their own guidelines, policies, and codes.

EDIT. Also regarding the Copper, most copper in newer construction is being made of PEX, with only 40'' total of copper being used in a typical residential new construction. (nipples for the sinks, washer machine, and the piping for the cross to the showers/bathtubs, and 18 inches from the water heater connections, rest is all PEX. but more copper tubing is used if there are more shower stalls etc. But "typical" is about 40''-60'' for a Duplex, at least in my area per code, that is all the copper that is needed. Rest is all PEX and PVC with some ABS)


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> bigger stronger hole?
> i didnt realize there was differance in the inside diameter of cast iron pipe versus pvc! :laughing:
> after 30 years in the trades i thought it was the wall thickness/o.d that was differant! :laughing:
> I really must get a maintenance job so I can learn up on these things! :laughing:


OD is what I was refering too, I know they are measured via ID, but was referring to it being more reinforced.


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## davido30093 (Jan 1, 2011)

Well, while I have done a large amount of residential electrical work in the last 50 years, I want to make it clear that I am NOT a licensed electrician. If I run into something that I don't know , I don't hesitate to call one. They are always worth the cost. 

What I am is a retired Deputy Director of a large Public Safety agency. (Police, Fire, and EMS). If you want an in depth discussion of fire inspectors and insurance companies, I AM your guy. 

I stand by my statements.

Fire away.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> 1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.
> 
> 2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.
> 
> ...


If you ever spent any time in the actual plumbing trade im sure you would have seen a 1/2" water service at some point in your career.
metal pop ups are required by code in commercial buildings around here,not residential.
If you have 2 electric water heaters in a house i sure as hell hope theyre on 2 seperate circuits,very hard to run them on 1! :laughing::laughing:
So youre saying the residential electric water heaters draw less of a load than 1 commercial unit? :whistling2:
how about 2 residential gas water heaters do they use less gas than 1 commercial gas water heater?:whistling2:
Type m copper has been code for residential in these parts for years,Type L is code for commercial use.
Have you ever seen a compact fl bulb,you know the ones mandated by the epa now? yeah thats mercury in those bulbs! :laughing:


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> NEC also bans the use of Commercial Use Only products for Residential use. Meaning unless your area says otherwise, it's against building code just to even have it. which an insurance company can absolutely claim was a factor in a fault.


If you're going to state NEC or any other code presents something from being done please cite chapter and verse! Where in the NEC is there any reference preventing you from using commercial products in a residential situation? :jester:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> If you ever spent any time in the actual plumbing trade im sure you would have seen a 1/2" water service at some point in your career.
> metal pop ups are required by code in commercial buildings around here,not residential.
> If you have 2 electric water heaters in a house i sure as hell hope theyre on 2 seperate circuits,very hard to run them on 1! :laughing::laughing:
> So youre saying the residential electric water heaters draw less of a load than 1 commercial unit? :whistling2:
> ...


Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home. 

It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts. 

A commercial water heater, would overload a homes breaker. Just like a commercial range oven would. A Commercial Walk in Freezer/Refrigerator, etc. 

Apples and oranges. 

That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> If you're going to state NEC or any other code presents something from being done please cite chapter and verse! Where in the NEC is there any reference preventing you from using commercial products in a residential situation? :jester:


Waiting on the Paragraph and Line, have to wait for someone to get back to me with it.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> That said, I know incandessent lightbulbs were HAZMAT, but never knew they had mercury in them. I know the gases they have in them are toxic. But didn't know it was Mercury.


Where are you that incandessent bulbs are hazardous waste? I've never seen at any place. Many places consider fluorescent lights (tubes or CFL) to be a hazardous waste but not incandessent.


BigGuy01 said:


> Waiting on the Paragraph and Line, have to wait for someone to get back to me with it.


You're going to be waiting a long time.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> Where are you that incandessent bulbs are hazardous waste? I've never seen at any place. Many places consider fluorescent lights (tubes or CFL) to be a hazardous waste but not incandessent.
> 
> You're going to be waiting a long time.


Nah, at most I should have it tomorrow. the one with the code book is eating dinner with his family.

Blah, got my light bulbs screwed up. 

I ment the fluarescents. Also black lights, they all have to be recycled in my area. Unless it's a normal 40 or 60watt lightbulb you'd put into your cieling light, it has to be recycled. (even regular fluerescents have to be recycled in my area)


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> But quite frankly, there are a lot of home insurance company's that will not cover with commercial grade.
> 
> Can't do commercial grade water heater, because it sucks in too much power. VOids home owners because they can say the power it sucks up put too much strain on your electrical system.
> 
> ...


Really. My home has all commercial grade outlets, gfci's, wall switches in it. Does that void my insurance? And really, commercial grade water heaters put more stress on a resi system, along with sucking more power. I want to see the documents that back that up.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home.
> 
> It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts.
> 
> ...


Last time I looked a 10 gauge wire was rated for the same load whether it was residential or commercial,a single phase 200amp service in a commercial building is rated for the same loads as a 200amp residential service.
a 3 phase piece of equipment for a commercial building draws less power/more efficient than a single phase piece of equipment of same size,but most houses in the US dont have 3 phase power yet anyway it is coming though. :yeshows that for apples and oranges for ya? :laughing
there are plenty of homes out there with commercial kitchens in them,and commercial water heaters as well.
So before you start giving lessons might i suggest you go down to the local trade school and sign up for some classes,by the way im looking through my wallet and i see a state issued electrical contractors license/a city issued master electricians license/5 differant city issued plumbers licenses/a city issued sewer layers license/a dept of enviromental quality issued master septic tank installers license/2 hvac contractor licenses/an epa universal certification dated 2/94/an ase refrig cert.........:whistling2:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> I got even better, want to call up your home owners insurance company and ask what they say if you use commercial use only light fixtures in your home?:thumbsup:


I did and guess what, my State Farm Insurance agent only stated that as long as I knew what I was doing, and was not holding my beer in one hand, and standing on a aluminum ladder while working on it energized, they were fine with it.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> That wouldn't be hard, do you know why? They can claim the Commercial Grade Appliance/fixture overloaded your residential system, causing xxx to overload.
> 
> Weakest part of a chain is what breaks. If the strongest part was too strong, it'll be a weaker component that fails, not the stronger one.
> 
> ...


Really, and what part of the NEC would that be in?


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Nah, at most I should have it tomorrow. the one with the code book is eating dinner with his family.
> 
> Blah, got my light bulbs screwed up.
> 
> I ment the fluarescents. Also black lights, they all have to be recycled in my area. Unless it's a normal 40 or 60watt lightbulb you'd put into your cieling light, it has to be recycled. (even regular fluerescents have to be recycled in my area)


He got the code book and you got stuck with the broom tonight huh? eems like a fair trade off! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.
> 
> 2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.
> 
> ...


There is no code that states whether you can or can not use 2 water heaters. A lot of homes have two, due to they may have garden tubs, or large families, and it is easier to install two 40 gallon water heaters than install a 80 gallon and wait forever for recovery.

Yes, there is 1/2" water service, especially in trailers. Majority of the homes out there have 4" dwv, and yes you would use reducers to change down to 3" or 3 1/2", especially for a toilet.

And no, majority of copper out there is not PEX being used. It is just that PEX is a lot easier to work with, and does not need a lot of fittings for runs. But it does take someone knowing how to work with it, to do the job properly.

For #5, CFL's, TV sets, computers, Tube Florescent, etc all use Mercury. You may want to look into that one. Manufacturers have been using Mercury in light bulbs, especially florescent for a very long time.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Only water mains I've done work with was a 1'' for a new construction home.
> 
> It's not a matter of how much power they draw, it's how much that single circuit is being stressed. Commercial Water Heaters have a much higher wattage than a single residential water heater. A typical home with 110 and 220v circuits, most of the time aren't rated for commercial water heaters. Residential Water Heaters also function differently from commercial. Commercial powers up both elements at the same time, while residential alternates. A typical heating element for a Residental water heater, will be approx 1500 watts, with typical 210-240 volts, which if at 220 that's 6.8 amps, running both at the same time that takes it up to 17.6amps on its own, not including the rest of the water heater to operate, which a typical residential water heater will run anywhere from 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts, while a typical commercial water heater can be as high as 15,000 watts.
> 
> ...


 incandescent light bulbs are not Hazmat, and what gases are there in light bulbs? They have a vacuum in them.

Stress on the electrical system. Where are you coming up with this? A commercial water heater is really no different in a residential, just that for some they mark the price up higher, because of the term "Commercial Use". But yes, the parts are a lot tougher on commercial grade water heaters, is why a lot of builders will use them in residential installs, vs cheap off the shelf stuff at Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Really. My home has all commercial *and residential* grade outlets, gfci's, wall switches in it. Does that void my insurance? And really, commercial grade water heaters put more stress on a resi system, along with sucking more power. I want to see the documents that back that up.


Fixed it.

And sure

http://www.rheem.com/products/commercial/water_heating/commercial_electric/

Feel free to compare.

http://www.rheem.com/products/tank_water_heaters/electric_water_heaters/

For more accurate comparisons, we'll use the same manufacturer. Feel free to browse them, and notice how commercial water heaters can go as high as 36,000 Watts


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> 1. If it's allowed per code to have 2 water heaters, most likely on two totally different circuits, then its per code.
> 
> 2. I can't say I've ever seen a 1/2'' water service.... If you're talking about DWV, that's usually 3'' with a reducer that goes from 3'' to 4''. That said, if it's to code for your area than its to code.
> 
> ...


Do you have any real skills besides emptying the trash cans,sweeping the floors and waxing your bosses truck? :laughing:
I just looked at your other post about 240v to a gas water heater,you sir are a piece of work!
keep up the good work,im bored and can use the entertainment! :laughing:


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Fixed it.
> 
> And sure
> 
> ...


Hey numbnuts how about comparing water heaters with the same output! :laughing:
wow my 175a hobart wirewelder draws more power than a 125a wirewelder,oh wait its a bigger unit! :laughing:


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> There is no code that states whether you can or can not use 2 water heaters. A lot of homes have two, due to they may have garden tubs, or large families, and it is easier to install two 40 gallon water heaters than install a 80 gallon and wait forever for recovery.
> 
> Yes, there is 1/2" water service, especially in trailers. Majority of the homes out there have 4" dwv, and yes you would use reducers to change down to 3" or 3 1/2", especially for a toilet.
> 
> ...


 
I ment to say majority of copper used is replaced with PEX because it is much cheaper, and can hold to the same limits of copper for the purpose of drinking water and water used for showering, etc. 

That said, LCD and Plasma Screen TVs do nto use mercury. Only the older "Box" TVs use Mercury. Same goes for Computer Monitors, etc. The newer ones use plasma, or Crystals. Not mercury.

Also, PEX is actually very easy to work with. Many ways to put fittings on it, with the fastest and easiest way is putting a PEX ring on the edge of PEX tubing, using a special tool to expand the end, and then puting the fitting in place, hold it steady for 2 mins or so, and the PEX will conform to the tube/fitting, creating an easy, instant water-tight seal. Very quick, easy, and cheap. For both commercial and residential use. 

Personally I love PEX. It makes life incredibly easier.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Fixed it.
> 
> And sure
> 
> ...


Incorrect on the outlets etc. It is all commercial grade switches, outlets, gfci's in my home. How do I know, it is because I installed them myself. And as for the two water heaters, what is your point, small offices that do not have high demand can use residential type water heaters. The heavier demand types, you see in places with a lot of foot traffic, and also in homes that want fast recovery. There is no code stating which you can and can not use.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> Hey numbnuts how about comparing water heaters with the same output! :laughing:
> wow my 175a hobart wirewelder draws more power than a 125a wirewelder,oh wait its a bigger unit! :laughing:


You have that ability in the links provided to compare the same outputs.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> Fixed it.
> And sure
> http://www.rheem.com/products/commercial/water_heating/commercial_electric/
> Feel free to compare.
> ...


There's no problem installing the 36kw water heater in a residential application as long as the proper sized wiring and breakers are used! Obviously the same ones used for in a normal residential water heater couldn't be used but if they are correctly sized there isn't a problem which any code book or AHJ will support! :thumbsup:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Incorrect on the outlets etc. It is all commercial grade switches, outlets, gfci's in my home. How do I know, it is because I installed them myself. And as for the two water heaters, what is your point, small offices that do not have high demand can use residential type water heaters. The heavier demand types, you see in places with a lot of foot traffic, and also in homes that want fast recovery. There is no code stating which you can and can not use.


Electrical Outlets, switches, and GFCIs are rated for both commercial and residential. Pull one out and read it. They are designed to the same specs and are universal. We don't live in Europe bud.... Commercial and Residential Light Switches and outlets are the same. 

Just like how you use the same 4 prong outlet to plug in your dryer as a machine shop will use to plug in their drill press or table saw etc. They are engineered to be universal for both Residential and Commercial Application.


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Because you have so much experiance hooking it up to those 240v gas water heaters! :brows::brows::sleep1::sleep1:
Around here we cant use it because of issues with chlorine,what say you oh great one of maintenance? :whistling2:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> There's no problem installing the 36kw water heater in a residential application as long as the proper sized wiring and breakers are used! Obviously the same ones used for in a normal residential water heater couldn't be used but if they are correctly sized there isn't a problem which any code book or AHJ will support! :thumbsup:


So you're saying you're going to have a 50 or higher amp breaker? Because obviously you're going to run more than a water heater in a home at any one time.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> You have that ability in the links provided to compare the same outputs.


Im relying on your great wealth of knowledge here! :laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> I ment to say majority of copper used is replaced with PEX because it is much cheaper, and can hold to the same limits of copper for the purpose of drinking water and water used for showering, etc.
> 
> That said, LCD and Plasma Screen TVs do nto use mercury. Only the older "Box" TVs use Mercury. Same goes for Computer Monitors, etc. The newer ones use plasma, or Crystals. Not mercury.
> 
> ...


No Copper did not get replaced with PEX. Both are still used. In some cities, you can only use Copper for water piping, PEX is not allowed.

Yes, LCD's, Plasma tv sets all have mercury in them. Plasma is a what is created inside the tube of a Plasma tv, due to the exciting of the gas that is inside them. Ever seen a Neon light, or one of those globes that has threads of lighting in them? It is caused by the Plasma energy inside. Those "Crystals" inside LCD's uses electricity to excite them, and they float in a liquid matter. Every electronic device out there has a trace amount of mercury in them. And depending on the purpose, mercury is used in a lot of manufacturing processes, especially with Gold. So you better no longer wear any gold jewelry, or use anything with gold plating.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> So you're saying you're going to have a 50 or higher amp breaker? Because obviously you're going to run more than a water heater in a home at any one time.


? So what's the problem with that? Many larger homes have at least 400 amp service!


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> Last time I looked a 10 gauge wire was rated for the same load whether it was residential or commercial,a single phase 200amp service in a commercial building is rated for the same loads as a 200amp residential service.
> a 3 phase piece of equipment for a commercial building draws less power/more efficient than a single phase piece of equipment of same size,but most houses in the US dont have 3 phase power yet anyway it is coming though. :yeshows that for apples and oranges for ya? :laughing
> there are plenty of homes out there with commercial kitchens in them,and commercial water heaters as well.
> So before you start giving lessons might i suggest you go down to the local trade school and sign up for some classes,by the way im looking through my wallet and i see a state issued electrical contractors license/a city issued master electricians license/5 differant city issued plumbers licenses/a city issued sewer layers license/a dept of enviromental quality issued master septic tank installers license/2 hvac contractor licenses/an epa universal certification dated 2/94/an ase refrig cert.........:whistling2:


How big is your friggen wallet  Do you even have room for your credit cards or drivers license in all that? I can barely fit 7 or 8 cards in my wallet outside of my D/L...


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> So you're saying you're going to have a 50 or higher amp breaker? Because obviously you're going to run more than a water heater in a home at any one time.


If the wire is properly sized for the load you can have a 100a breaker! :laughing:


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> ? So what's the problem with that? Many larger homes have at least 400 amp service!


Dude, I don't know of ANY homes that have any higher than 30 amps..... That includes the $500,000 house my uncle bought years back....


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> If the wire is properly sized for the load you can have a 100a breaker! :laughing:


Never said you couldn't. But I've never seen a house with anything bigger than 30a


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Electrical Outlets, switches, and GFCIs are rated for both commercial and residential. Pull one out and read it. They are designed to the same specs and are universal. We don't live in Europe bud.... Commercial and Residential Light Switches and outlets are the same.
> 
> Just like how you use the same 4 prong outlet to plug in your dryer as a machine shop will use to plug in their drill press or table saw etc. They are engineered to be universal for both Residential and Commercial Application.


Gee, where did you pick that up? Maybe from the fact that people have been telling you that over and over. And no, a 4-wire plug for a dryer is not the same as for a machine shop drill press or table saw. Majority of the equipment in machine shops is hardwired to a junction box up in the ceiling, or to conduit, and the machine is bolted to the floor.

You son have a lot to learn, then just throwing stuff out there that you have no idea in what you are talking about.


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

....I see that nobody learned anything from the "red transfer wire" issue.....ho hum. Don't kids say the darndest things?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Electrical Outlets, switches, and GFCIs are rated for both commercial and residential. Pull one out and read it. They are designed to the same specs and are universal. We don't live in Europe bud.... Commercial and Residential Light Switches and outlets are the same.
> 
> Just like how you use the same 4 prong outlet to plug in your dryer as a machine shop will use to plug in their drill press or table saw etc. They are engineered to be universal for both Residential and Commercial Application.


Nice try BigGuy I live in France as far for the electrical device between the resdentail and commercal line they intertwined so there is no differance only the voltage level that all.

For the 4 prong receptale or our terms " power points " you have to be little more carefull with the wording due you can get them in monophase or triphase verison and if someone is not carefull you know the result .,, firework show or magic smoke which you will cuss like nuts.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> No Copper did not get replaced with PEX. Both are still used. In some cities, you can only use Copper for water piping, PEX is not allowed.
> 
> Yes, LCD's, Plasma tv sets all have mercury in them. Plasma is a what is created inside the tube of a Plasma tv, due to the exciting of the gas that is inside them. Ever seen a Neon light, or one of those globes that has threads of lighting in them? It is caused by the Plasma energy inside. Those "Crystals" inside LCD's uses electricity to excite them, and they float in a liquid matter. Every electronic device out there has a trace amount of mercury in them. And depending on the purpose, mercury is used in a lot of manufacturing processes, especially with Gold. So you better no longer wear any gold jewelry, or use anything with gold plating.


In WA, from Bellingham to Seattle to Spokane, PEX is used anywhere copper isn't needed. At least in my state. Can't speak for yours, but here, anything outside of the connections to a water heater and shower/bathtub are all PEX. The nipples to hook up sink feed lines and other things like that, are copper/brass by plumbers personal preference. But are not required by code. 

That's just in my area. That said, my monitor doesn't have a mercury warning label.... It has Lead Warning labels, but not Mercury.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

"magic smoke"?? I know that motors run on smoke because when the smoke leaks out of a motor it stops running.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> Never said you couldn't. But I've never seen a house with anything bigger than 30a


If you get out in the field on your own (if you ever do) you might actually see some of those things we're talking about! Stuff like this you won't see in those little three room homes you're practicing on. You probably also want to change the title below your name to student until you get some more experience to support that I know you're using! :thumbup:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> How big is your friggen wallet  Do you even have room for your credit cards or drivers license in all that? I can barely fit 7 or 8 cards in my wallet outside of my D/L...


Well im sure atleast 2 of those cards in your wallet are for your the phone numbers of all your bosses at burger king,then you have the business card of the guy who sold your boss that tamper proof spec grade gfi for the womens bathroom you keep testing every 30 minutes(cant be too safe! :laughing
maybe if youre a good boy and finish that correspondence course in electrical theory theyll move you up to head bulb changer some day! :laughing:


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> So you're saying you're going to have a 50 or higher amp breaker? Because obviously you're going to run more than a water heater in a home at any one time.


Yes, most homes do have breakers that large for water heaters. But guess what, they usually have 200 amp or as large as 400 amp service. Guess you did not know that.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

frenchelectrican said:


> Nice try BigGuy I live in France as far for the electrical device between the resdentail and commercal line they intertwined so there is no differance only the voltage level that all.
> 
> For the 4 prong receptale or our terms " power points " you have to be little more carefull with the wording due you can get them in monophase or triphase verison and if someone is not carefull you know the result .,, firework show or magic smoke which you will cuss like nuts.
> 
> ...


European Electrical has a different frequency (hertz) than American Electrical. Its why you can't plug in American items into a European outlet without an adapter between the two to change the frequency of the electricity so it doesn't fry the American made device.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Yes, most homes do have breakers that large for water heaters. But guess what, they usually have 200 amp or as large as 400 amp service. Guess you did not know that.


My uncle used to have a 4200sq ft $500,000 home, and his breaker was 30a................

He wasn't allowed to get anything commercial installed because the builders said it wasn't allowed because the house was going to be residential. Breaker they said was highest capacity allowable for a residential dwelling.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Dude, I don't know of ANY homes that have any higher than 30 amps..... That includes the $500,000 house my uncle bought years back....


30 amps? How old is that house? BTW, my dryer is on a 30 amp breaker, if I had a electric water heater, so would it. If I had a heat pump, guess what, 30 amp breaker, could be 40 amp. If I ever had to add a sub-panel, guess what, I could put in a 60 amp breaker to feed it.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> My uncle used to have a 4200sq ft $500,000 home, and his breaker was 30a................
> 
> He wasn't allowed to get anything commercial installed because the builders said it wasn't allowed because the house was going to be residential. Breaker they said was highest capacity allowable for a residential dwelling.


What about the electrique stove or larger Central Air condtioing unit they denfine use larger breaker without issue.

And can you send me your state code related to the limitation of breaker size ??? 

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> My uncle used to have a 4200sq ft $500,000 home, and his breaker was 30a................
> 
> He wasn't allowed to get anything commercial installed because the builders said it wasn't allowed because the house was going to be residential. Breaker they said was highest capacity allowable for a residential dwelling.


At least he listened to and believed that malarkey!

It's been fun but you can go on playing tonight while the rest must do something more constructive!

Merry Christmas!:thumbup:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> European Electrical has a different frequency (hertz) than American Electrical. Its why you can't plug in American items into a European outlet without an adapter between the two to change the frequency of the electricity so it doesn't fry the American made device.


Ok do you know what our conductor colour code is ?

Merci.
Marc


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Never said you couldn't. But I've never seen a house with anything bigger than 30a


And youve never seen a 1/2" water service either. :laughing:
Can you explain a gfci and how it operates to me,im feeling rusty.
How about an afci? 
Im installing a sub panel monday,should I bond the neutrals/grounds together or seperate them?
If so what kind of glue should I use to bond them? 
While Im there I need to install a drip leg on the water heater,how far off the ground should the bottem of it be ?
How many 90s can I put in the drip leg before i have to step up to bigger pipe? 
My condensing unit says it pulls 12.3 amps how big of a breaker should i wire it into,what size wire? 
youre my saviour! :yes:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> Well im sure atleast 2 of those cards in your wallet are for your the phone numbers of all your bosses at burger king,then you have the business card of the guy who sold your boss that tamper proof spec grade gfi for the womens bathroom you keep testing every 30 minutes(cant be too safe! :laughing
> maybe if youre a good boy and finish that correspondence course in electrical theory theyll move you up to head bulb changer some day! :laughing:


 Actually, it's Flagger, OSHA-10, Forklift Operator, Electrical Trainee reciept (get the card itself in a few days, have to wait for processing blah blah blah, and it goes into electrical license after 10,000hrs of working electrical, but I'm going for more training towards plumbing because I love doing Plumbing more than Electrical, much more funner to me) Powder Actuated Tools Cert. Lovers reward card, Home Depot Rewards Club, and then my Driver's License. 

Luckily in my state, Plumbers and Electricians are State Certified, so it saves wallet space. :thumbsup:


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Missouri Bound said:


> ....I see that nobody learned anything from the "red transfer wire" issue.....ho hum. Don't kids say the darndest things?


It was a slow night! :laughing:


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Msradell said:


> Merry Christmas!:thumbup:


And a very Merry Christmas to you and everyone else here!!


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> European Electrical has a different frequency (hertz) than American Electrical. Its why you can't plug in American items into a European outlet without an adapter between the two to change the frequency of the electricity so it doesn't fry the American made device.


Where in the world did that come from? Are you just trying to dig for more info to help in your trade, or just not realizing that some of these guys that are professionals in the trades can show you a thing or two. Back in the day for your info, back in the day, there was no consistency for the frequency of electrical systems here in the U.S. It was not until Westinghouse Electricity decided to make it standardized to use 60hz, due to stuff just ran better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

..."if you let them do it to you, you've got yourself to blame" _*The Who*_


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> European Electrical has a different frequency (hertz) than American Electrical. Its why you can't plug in American items into a European outlet without an adapter between the two to change the frequency of the electricity so it doesn't fry the American made device.


Learned that on the internet didnt ya,did you also read the part about most europeon countries running on 240v instead of 120? :laughing:


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> My uncle used to have a 4200sq ft $500,000 home, and his breaker was 30a................
> 
> He wasn't allowed to get anything commercial installed because the builders said it wasn't allowed because the house was going to be residential. Breaker they said was highest capacity allowable for a residential dwelling.


Dude youre smoking crack! :laughing:


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> My uncle used to have a 4200sq ft $500,000 home, and his breaker was 30a................
> 
> He wasn't allowed to get anything commercial installed because the builders said it wasn't allowed because the house was going to be residential. Breaker they said was highest capacity allowable for a residential dwelling.


Sorry, unless you have something to back that up, no builder is going to deny a homeowner to have commercial grade devices or equipment installed in the home, unless it is a tract build and they want to cut every corner to make the build and structure as cheap as they could.

And what is this 30 amp breaker that you keep talking about? There is no main breaker that is in use these days, nor any home that could get by with 30 amp service. At any time, my use is anywhere from 35 to 42 amps for my home.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

:thumbsup:


gregzoll said:


> 30 amps? How old is that house? BTW, my dryer is on a 30 amp breaker, if I had a electric water heater, so would it. If I had a heat pump, guess what, 30 amp breaker, could be 40 amp. If I ever had to add a sub-panel, guess what, I could put in a 60 amp breaker to feed it.


Didn't know that.  How do you add the subpanel to increase the amperage to put in the 60amp breaker?



frenchelectrican said:


> What about the electrique stove or larger Central Air condtioing unit they denfine use larger breaker without issue.
> 
> And can you send me your state code related to the limitation of breaker size ???
> 
> ...


It's within the capacity of the breaker. I'm not sure what you're saying?



frenchelectrican said:


> Ok do you know what our conductor colour code is ?
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


 Not a clue. I do know European Electricity has a different frequency compared to American Electricity. No idea of wire/color codes.



plummen said:


> And youve never seen a 1/2" water service either. :laughing:
> Can you explain a gfci and how it operates to me,im feeling rusty.
> How about an afci?
> Im installing a sub panel monday,should I bond the neutrals/grounds together or seperate them?
> ...


GFCI is a Ground Fault Circuit Interuptor. It shuts down the circuit if a sudden surge of amperage is detected. Keeping someone from getting shocked/electricuted. (Like drop a hair dryer into a bathtub, the person will get a mini jolt but the circuit will be shut down before anything major occurs)

AFCI? Not a clue what that is. I'll google it in a bit.

Last I checked, Neutrals, Grounds, and Hots are supposed to be seperated from each other? 

Drip Leg, shouldn't that be like 6-8'' from the ground? #4 Copper and 15a?

How'd I do?


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Sorry, unless you have something to back that up, no builder is going to deny a homeowner to have commercial grade devices or equipment installed in the home, unless it is a tract build and they want to cut every corner to make the build and structure as cheap as they could.
> 
> And what is this 30 amp breaker that you keep talking about? There is no main breaker that is in use these days, nor any home that could get by with 30 amp service. At any time, my use is anywhere from 35 to 42 amps for my home.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

Largest he could have installed.


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Actually, it's Flagger, OSHA-10, Forklift Operator, Electrical Trainee reciept (get the card itself in a few days, have to wait for processing blah blah blah, and it goes into electrical license after 10,000hrs of working electrical, but I'm going for more training towards plumbing because I love doing Plumbing more than Electrical, much more funner to me) Powder Actuated Tools Cert. Lovers reward card, Home Depot Rewards Club, and then my Driver's License.
> 
> Luckily in my state, Plumbers and Electricians are State Certified, so it saves wallet space. :thumbsup:


Yeah you need aflagger alright! :laughing:
yeah after 10,000hrs of apprentice work,dont forget that little state test that comes before the license! :laughing:
osha 10,yeah i remember taking that bout 20 years ago.
powder actuated tools cert,i think my grandson has one of those (hes 3 now)
home depot rewards card,now it all makes sense! 
i bet youve got the whole homeless depot/do it yourself library on cd rom! :laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA
> 
> Largest he could have installed.


Doubtful on that.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> Yeah you need aflagger alright! :laughing:
> yeah after 10,000hrs of apprentice work,dont forget that little state test that comes before the license! :laughing:
> osha 10,yeah i remember taking that bout 20 years ago.
> powder actuated tools cert,i think my grandson has one of those (hes 3 now)
> ...


Now that's just cruel...

And yeah, like I said, 10,000hrs of Electrical work. 

I hope you're Osha 10

And no, I can garuntee your 3 year old grandson wouldn't be certified to use what is essentially a gun that shoots nails instead of bullets. (Powder Actually Tools use a gunpowder charge, like that which is found inside a bullet casing, to propell a nail into steel, concrete, titanium, and other hard surfaces. In all intents and purposes, it is literally a gun)


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Doubtful on that.


Per his contractor that was building it, the Electrician on the crew said anything larger wasn't allowed per code for the home. This was back in 2007.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Per his contractor that was building it, the Electrician on the crew said anything larger wasn't allowed per code for the home. This was back in 2007.


Again doubtful and really hard to believe.


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Didn't know that.  How do you add the subpanel to increase the amperage to put in the 60amp breaker?
> 
> ...


you failed miserably son! :laughing:
A gfi can detect closer to 1-millionath of an amp
you look up afci and report back! :laughing:
hooray you seperate neutrals/grounds on a sub panel(googled it didnt ya? )
drip leg is supposed to be double the outside diameter of pipe off of ground
how many 90s before increasing size of a drip leg?
unit has a load of 12.3 amps you figure the wiring and breaker for 125% of any large load which gives you 15.375amps
too big for a 15a circuit so you use #12 wire and 20a breaker:whistling2:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Now that's just cruel...
> 
> And yeah, like I said, 10,000hrs of Electrical work.
> 
> ...


Really, none of us knew that. Any more grand info you wish to give out. BTW, have you figured out how many days of work it will take to get that 10,000 hours of experience, or should some of us help you calculate that.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Again doubtful and really hard to believe.


Well, that was the reasoning for it. That's why nothing he had went above 27a

On Commercial Buildings I've seen up to 200a for a circuit breaker. But was basically an entire panel all on its own. And was powering an overhead crane used to move 80,000lb cargo containers. Not something I can imagine seeing in a home.

For a home, largest I've ever seen, even my own (was just looking at my own Service Panel) 30a is the highest.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> you failed miserably son! :laughing:
> A gfi can detect closer to 1-millionath of an amp
> you look up afci and report back! :laughing:
> hooray you seperate neutrals/grounds on a sub panel(googled it didnt ya? )
> ...


And as I said, any surge in a circuit and a GFI will trip, closing the circuit.

And no, I've known that from class. :thumbsup:

So about 3'' roughly? Would it hurt to have it higher? (asking, because I'll end up doing it eventually)

Wouldn't it be 1? Drip leg is just a tube that goes from the relieve valve at the bottom of the tank into the drip pan, correct? (not used to the term drip leg) Or are you talking about the Dip Tube? Dip tube should be much, much longer than the OD of the tube.... and only has 2 90 degree fittings at most, if not just one (depending on manufacturer)

So you take 125% of 12.3a and then go larger? What is the reason for that? (asking)


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Really, none of us knew that. Any more grand info you wish to give out. BTW, have you figured out how many days of work it will take to get that 10,000 hours of experience, or should some of us help you calculate that.


5 years of OJT, then another 50 years of OJE same as for Plumbers. 

And Plummen apparently didn't know that, or he wouldn't have stated his 3 year old grandson was trained to use them.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> And as I said, any surge in a circuit and a GFI will trip, closing the circuit.
> 
> And no, I've known that from class. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Sorry, but a surge in current does not cause a GFCI to trip. It is a voltage imbalance between Neutral & Ground that causes the circuit inside to shut down the circuit. 

Also, have you found out how a AFCI works yet?


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Now that's just cruel...
> 
> And yeah, like I said, 10,000hrs of Electrical work.
> 
> ...


yeah i know what is ,ive had a ramset one since the early 90s ive also got a license for hilti"s :whistling2:
I spent some time in the Army probably before you were born operating a real rifle that fired real bullets at bad people,after that bit of training the ramsets were pretty easy to operate.
And yes my 3 year old grandson is very handy with tools for his age.I have a jd 710g 4x4 extendahoe and a jd 135d trackhoe that he knows how to pull the levers on both,by the time hes 10 id put him up against anybody if he keeps at it :thumbsup:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 5 years of OJT, then another 50 years of OJE same as for Plumbers.
> 
> And Plummen apparently didn't know that, or he wouldn't have stated his 3 year old grandson was trained to use them.


Actually, you do not have to be trained to use a Powder actuator, unless you are in the trades. I have one, and I do not have a license, so does that mean that I have illegally obtained the one that I have in my possession? Should I go downtown and turn myself into the local police?

Also, where are you coming up with the 50 years for plumbers? If that was the case, most of them would be dead before they earned their license.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> yeah i know what is ,ive had a ramset one since the early 90s ive also got a license for hilti"s :whistling2:
> I spent some time in the Army probably before you were born operating a real rifle that fired real bullets at bad people,after that bit of training the ramsets were pretty easy to operate.
> And yes my 3 year old grandson is very handy with tools for his age.I have a jd 710g 4x4 extendahoe and a jd 135d trackhoe that he knows how to pull the levers on both,by the time hes 10 id put him up against anybody if he keeps at it :thumbsup:


 The way you came off made it sound as though you saw powder actuated tools as toys. 

But why the levers? You know the newer ones which he'll probably be using if he goes into (or chooses to) operating equipment using more joysticks etc.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> 5 years of OJT, then another 50 years of OJE same as for Plumbers.
> 
> And Plummen apparently didn't know that, or he wouldn't have stated his 3 year old grandson was trained to use them.


I can teach a kindergarten class how to proficiently operate a ramset in about 15 minsand yes that was joke about grandson having a ramset license! :laughing:
it doesnt take 5 years of training to get no stinking ram set license anywhere!
my forklift certification consisted of staying awake through a 45 minute and a 10 minute written test! :laughing:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Actually, you do not have to be trained to use a Powder actuator, unless you are in the trades. I have one, and I do not have a license, so does that mean that I have illegally obtained the one that I have in my possession? Should I go downtown and turn myself into the local police?
> 
> Also, where are you coming up with the 50 years for plumbers? If that was the case, most of them would be dead before they earned their license.


Not illegal to have one, just you can be fined $100 for every charge on your person, and fined $500 for having the tool in your hand.

Each charge comes on a clip. Each clip has 10 charges. Each clip if full, is $1,000 a piece. You wouldn't be arrested or anything, just fined a few thousand dollars. 

Certification is only a 2hr course, and its free. Free training+Certification=0 fines... Can't beat that... 

Sadly, I have to go all the way down to woodinville to get certified on the rest of HILTIs tools


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> The way you came off made it sound as though you saw powder actuated tools as toys.
> 
> But why the levers? You know the newer ones which he'll probably be using if he goes into (or chooses to) operating equipment using more joysticks etc.


when i got in the trades my first backhoe had 4 levers,2nd one had 2.
my g has levers and joy sticks depending on which controls you prefer,135 has just one joy stick for boom/bucket controls,foot/lever controls to drive/steer


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Not illegal to have one, just you can be fined $100 for every charge on your person, and fined $500 for having the tool in your hand.
> 
> Each charge comes on a clip. Each clip has 10 charges. Each clip if full, is $1,000 a piece. You wouldn't be arrested or anything, just fined a few thousand dollars.
> 
> ...


Really, I can be fined to have one? And wow, the charges come on clips, and they cost $1,000. Where are you looking this info up?

And there is a certification course? In the commercial industry, a certification for most things consist of staying awake, and showing the ability to safely use the equipment. Just like Plummen, I too have done a certification for operating a forklight, and other assorted equipment. Did not require any paying for, just had to not wreck the building, or equipment, and show safe proper use.


----------



## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Actually, you do not have to be trained to use a Powder actuator, unless you are in the trades. I have one, and I do not have a license, so does that mean that I have illegally obtained the one that I have in my possession? Should I go downtown and turn myself into the local police?
> 
> Also, where are you coming up with the 50 years for plumbers? If that was the case, most of them would be dead before they earned their license.


50 years because that is what a Plumber told me, it takes 50 years Plumbing Experience to truly know WTF you're doing. A Plumber who's been a Plumber for 55 years going on 56 in the Plumbing Trade told me that. 



plummen said:


> I can teach a kindergarten class how to proficiently operate a ramset in about 15 minsand yes that was joke about grandson having a ramset license! :laughing:
> it doesnt take 5 years of training to get no stinking ram set license anywhere!
> my forklift certification consisted of staying awake through a 45 minute and a 10 minute written test! :laughing:


You suck. OSHA requires an 8 hour class, one test every 4 hours of the class, and then 45 minute handson, and then a final test for operating it, and a final test on paper. I wish I were an old timer...

And yeah, OSHA requires 2hrs minimum to get certified for HILTI-Powder Actuated Tools. and 15 minutes of additional training for each additional tool. Because they require you to know specific characteristics of each Powder Actuated Tool, and proper applications for it. And basic identification of Fasteners and Safety Procedures (so you don't shoot johnny on the other side of the wall in the head)


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Not illegal to have one, just you can be fined $100 for every charge on your person, and fined $500 for having the tool in your hand.
> 
> Each charge comes on a clip. Each clip has 10 charges. Each clip if full, is $1,000 a piece. You wouldn't be arrested or anything, just fined a few thousand dollars.
> 
> ...


actually they can fine you for having used cartridges laying around unless you soak them in a bucket of water after using them to destrop left over gun powder


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Really, I can be fined to have one? And wow, the charges come on clips, and they cost $1,000. Where are you looking this info up?
> 
> And there is a certification course? In the commercial industry, a certification for most things consist of staying awake, and showing the ability to safely use the equipment. Just like Plummen, I too have done a certification for operating a forklight, and other assorted equipment. Did not require any paying for, just had to not wreck the building, or equipment, and show safe proper use.


HILTI-Trainer informed all of us, every powder charge is $100 fine if you're caught with it and not certified. Every clip has 10 powder charges. 

To BUY the clips, theya re only $5 or so a clip. But you can be fined for operating a HILTI Powder Actuated Tool $100 per live powder charge on your person + $500 for being in posession of the tool. 

Per OSHA, you have to take certification classes. And for Forklift, You're restricted on each Forklift. Like my Forklift Cert, I'm only certified to operate a Counter-Balance Forklift under OSHA. I cannot operate a Rough Terrain Forklift, etc. etc. etc. If it's not Counter-Balance, I cannot under OSHA operate it. It's a $1,000 fine if caught operating a forklift without the proper certification card on hand.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> 50 years because that is what a Plumber told me, it takes 50 years Plumbing Experience to truly know WTF you're doing. A Plumber who's been a Plumber for 55 years going on 56 in the Plumbing Trade told me that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont know any plumbers still working after 50 years in the trades,the lead and asbestos kills us off long before that! :laughing:
Ive retired twice in 30 yrs of working,i keep coming back because im bored! :laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Im self employed,osha regs have no affect on me only employees! :yes:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> actually they can fine you for having used cartridges laying around unless you soak them in a bucket of water after using them to destrop left over gun powder


When I took the class, if you weren't certified you were fined regardless if you had them on you. 

When finished with a clip, you have to soak it in water for 3 days, even if all of them are discharged. 

Any clip found laying on the ground, discharged completely or not, is $500 fine on the spot, plus $100 for each charge that hasn't been discharged. A Tradesman with no attention to detail, can rack up $1,500 fine for not picking up a dropped clip. Even if it means bringing down a boomlift from 70ft in the air to pick it up, you have to do it. 

But yeah, we had to take a 2 1/2 hour class for this...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> HILTI-Trainer informed all of us, every powder charge is $100 fine if you're caught with it and not certified. Every clip has 10 powder charges.
> 
> To BUY the clips, theya re only $5 or so a clip. But you can be fined for operating a HILTI Powder Actuated Tool $100 per live powder charge on your person + $500 for being in posession of the tool.
> 
> Per OSHA, you have to take certification classes. And for Forklift, You're restricted on each Forklift. Like my Forklift Cert, I'm only certified to operate a Counter-Balance Forklift under OSHA. I cannot operate a Rough Terrain Forklift, etc. etc. etc. If it's not Counter-Balance, I cannot under OSHA operate it. It's a $1,000 fine if caught operating a forklift without the proper certification card on hand.


That is because you are working in a commercial application. Anyone that operates equipment or tools in a commercial setting has to be certified. Most of the time, it is less than 2 hours of instruction, and then you have a senior operator that "ghosts" you until they feel that you are competent enough to use without them watching over.

And yes it is also correct that in a commercial application, if you are caught by OSHA using a Ramset or other tools without being signed off on them, and you or someone else gets injured, the big bad government employee can not only fine you, but they can fine the company you work for. Most companies will dismiss you before they can be fined for your incompetence, when something happens, that dangers others.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

plummen said:


> I dont know any plumbers still working after 50 years in the trades,the lead and asbestos kills us off long before that! :laughing:
> Ive retired twice in 30 yrs of working,i keep coming back because im bored! :laughing:


Ever thought of volunteering for Habitat for Humanity build sites? Only Thursday Friday and Saturdays usually... They have plenty of Carpenters and Volunteers to do Carpentry, but not many Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, or HVAC Techs...

And they usually have guys in your generation and older. I've worked with a man who was 87 years old, hammering plywood and roofing materials on a roof. Even worked with a 77 year old who could do a lot of labor work.... 

Definitely something worth looking into if you get bored or have nothing to do... :whistling2:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

I wired /plumbed houses for the bellevue chapter for many years,got tired of the politics


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

plummen said:


> I wired /plumbed houses for the bellevue chapter for many years,got tired of the politics


plenty of stuff to do,just have to be in the mood to do any of it! :laughing:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> That is because you are working in a commercial application. Anyone that operates equipment or tools in a commercial setting has to be certified. Most of the time, it is less than 2 hours of instruction, and then you have a senior operator that "ghosts" you until they feel that you are competent enough to use without them watching over.
> 
> And yes it is also correct that in a commercial application, if you are caught by OSHA using a Ramset or other tools without being signed off on them, and you or someone else gets injured, the big bad government employee can not only fine you, but they can fine the company you work for. Most companies will dismiss you before they can be fined for your incompetence, when something happens, that dangers others.


The HILTI Instructor told us you needed to be certified (it's free anyway at no cost) even to own one. So IDK about that.... Me and a few others asked when he was running the class because we were looking into buying some someday. That's when we found out to personally own one, it's $250-780 depending on which one, and then to have it, you have to go through their class which they offer both in-store, and for field training teams.

Like me, I'm certified on the DX 351/ DX 351-CT and the DX 460. I can just go and buy either of them and use them at will because I'm certified. But if I wanted to buy a DX A70R, or a DX 600 or a DX36M etc. I have to take a 15 min additional course on each one before I could purchase that one.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

BigGuy01 said:


> Ever thought of volunteering for Habitat for Humanity build sites? Only Thursday Friday and Saturdays usually... They have plenty of Carpenters and Volunteers to do Carpentry, but not many *Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, or HVAC Techs...*
> And they usually have guys in your generation and older. I've worked with a man who was 87 years old, hammering plywood and roofing materials on a roof. Even worked with a 77 year old who could do a lot of labor work....
> 
> Definitely something worth looking into if you get bored or have nothing to do... :whistling2:


One reason in my area is all these trades have to have a license, and someone has to permit the job.
Not many businesses will permit a free job, so most of these are paid for by donations.



I think the troll is strong in this one!!:jester:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jbfan said:


> One reason in my area is all these trades have to have a license, and someone has to permit the job.
> Not many businesses will permit a free job, so most of these are paid for by donations.
> 
> 
> ...


They are Licensed. The Regular Volunteers who aren't licensed work under the License of others on the building site. 

Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, Masons, Equipment Operators, and regular volunteers are found all over Habitat for Humanity Worksites. It's legal because those with licenses supervise the work areas being done. I.e. Plumbers watch/show volunteers to do Plumbing work under thier supervision. Electricians take those with Electrical Trainee cards and have them help wire the homes, and check to see how they are doing. and make adjustments/corrections as needed. HVAC-R Techs, well, they do their own thing since no one can touch anything outside of the ducting and air filters.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Dude, I don't know of ANY homes that have any higher than 30 amps..... That includes the $500,000 house my uncle bought years back....


So, where you live, for $500,000 you don't even get a stove to cook on?????:blink:
Ya know...because that would (or could) have a 50A breaker feeding it....and needless to say, that is more than 30A.

Must suck to sit in the living room floor in your $500,000 home and cook on a camp stove.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> So, where you live, for $500,000 you don't even get a stove to cook on?????:blink:
> Ya know...because that would (or could) have a 50A breaker feeding it....and needless to say, that is more than 30A.
> 
> Must suck to sit in the living room floor in your $500,000 home and cook on a camp stove.


50amps would be fore a 240 volt, his stove was 120... Only drew 15 amps... 50 amps would be insane... There is no way he'd be able to power that. Nothing he had in his house went above 30a.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> They are Licensed. The Regular Volunteers who aren't licensed work under the License of others on the building site.
> 
> Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, Masons, Equipment Operators, and regular volunteers are found all over Habitat for Humanity Worksites. It's legal because those with licenses supervise the work areas being done. I.e. Plumbers watch/show volunteers to do Plumbing work under thier supervision. Electricians take those with Electrical Trainee cards and have them help wire the homes, and check to see how they are doing. and make adjustments/corrections as needed. HVAC-R Techs, well, they do their own thing since no one can touch anything outside of the ducting and air filters.


So, how is it that you know this, but are a student? Google & Yahoo search engines are a great thing aren't they?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

BigGuy01 said:


> 50amps would be fore a 240 volt, his stove was 120... Only drew 15 amps... 50 amps would be insane... There is no way he'd be able to power that. Nothing he had in his house went above 30a.


Not cooking much with a 15 amp stove.
Does it take about a week to cook Christmas dinner?


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> 50amps would be fore a 240 volt, his stove was 120... Only drew 15 amps... 50 amps would be insane... There is no way he'd be able to power that. Nothing he had in his house went above 30a.


Gas stove or electric??


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> So, how is it that you know this, but are a student? Google & Yahoo search engines are a great thing aren't they?


My School, uses work as the classroom.

Habitat for Humanity I've been working for, for quite some time in my program. I've also maintained commercial and residential buildings and equipment. And have performed Logistics duties which require operatinf forklifts, and working with actual Journeyman from the trades. 

Very little time is spent in an actual class room outside of checking basic skills.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 50amps would be fore a 240 volt, his stove was 120... Only drew 15 amps... 50 amps would be insane... There is no way he'd be able to power that. Nothing he had in his house went above 30a.


Must be an Easy Bake with a 100watt bulb.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> Gas stove or electric??


It think it was gas. he had a gas water heater, too. 

He also had gas heaters. (and propane heaters as auxilleries)


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Very little time is spent in an actual class room outside of checking basic skills.


And..........naaaaaa, nevermind....too easy :laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> My School, uses work as the classroom.
> 
> Habitat for Humanity I've been working for, for quite some time in my program. I've also maintained commercial and residential buildings and equipment. And have performed Logistics duties which require operatinf forklifts, and working with actual Journeyman from the trades.
> 
> Very little time is spent in an actual class room outside of checking basic skills.


I would suggest that until you get some more experience, that you stay in the classroom more vs. being on the Internet, along with studying those books, including the NEC.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> And..........naaaaaa, nevermind....too easy :laughing:


Reason we have class time in an actual class room is to take knowledge tests and practice basics so when we went to our workbase sights we could actually do the work from day one without much issues at all for the people we worked for/with.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> It think it was gas. he had a gas water heater, too.
> 
> He also had gas heaters. (and propane heaters as auxilleries


OK, well...ummm...out in the REST of the world we have electric stoves available to us....and they DO draw (the INSANE amount of) 50 amps...and they draw it off of a 200 amp  main service.....and yes it's 240 volts, needless to say.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Reason we have class time in an actual class room is to take knowledge tests and practice basics so when we went to our workbase sights we could actually do the work from day one without much issues at all for the people we worked for/with.



I **sighhhhhhhhhhhhh** understood what you were saying.....just.....well nothin'


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> I would suggest that until you get some more experience, that you stay in the classroom more vs. being on the Internet, along with studying those books, including the NEC.


UPC, NEC, Building Code, and UMC are a part of the curriculum. Because we have to know how high from the floor outlets have to be, where switches can go, where a duct can be placed, DWV systems, we have to know how to assemble plumbing systems, etc. 

We get a fair amount of working experience doing the work before we move on to dedicated training.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> I would suggest that until you get some more experience, that you stay in the classroom more vs. being on the Internet, along with studying those books, including the NEC.


Motion seconded, and carried :bangin: (<--- that's as close as I could find to a gavel strike, lol)


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Because we have to know how high from the floor outlets have to be



Wha-wha-wha-what???????

How high would that be??


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

jproffer said:


> OK, well...ummm...out in the REST of the world we have electric stoves available to us....and they DO draw (the INSANE amount of) 50 amps...and they draw it off of a 200 amp  main service.....and yes it's 240 volts, needless to say.


Well in France we do also have 240 volt range or stove or hob ( whatever you call it ) that do draw 40 amp easy and also to really compound it we can reconferage it to triphase to run on 415 volts without issue.

Note it is normal to see alot of place which if it is on monophase supply useally limited to either 80 or 160 amp supply.

Merci,
Marc


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> Wha-wha-wha-what???????
> 
> How high would that be??


12'' from the ground. and then the bottom of a light switch box has to be no less than 43 1/2 inches from the ground.

EDIT

And anytime you run wiring through a stud, it cannot be within 1/3 of the outer edge of the stud, and cannot run a wire through a notch in a stud unless you put a 1/8'' thick metal plate on the stud to protect the wiring from any nails, screws, etc.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

frenchelectrican said:


> Well in France we do also have 240 volt range or stove or hob ( whatever you call it ) that do draw 40 amp easy and also to really compound it we can reconferage it to triphase to run on 415 volts without issue.
> 
> Note it is normal to see alot of place which if it is on monophase supply useally limited to either 80 or 160 amp supply.
> 
> ...


My post was aimed at Mr. Washington, not you :thumbsup:

I know zero about euro-electric....I know as much about that as Bi.....oh nevermind :jester:


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> 12'' from the ground.


Says who??

The NEC?....I'll give ya one cheat on this one, the answer to this one is NO....so who says?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

jproffer said:


> Wha-wha-wha-what???????
> 
> How high would that be??


Probably does not know the trick of standing his hammer up, with the head on the ground, then placing the bottom of the box at where the top of the handle ends up. Comes up right every time. Then again they probably do not know that there is really no right or wrong height in outlets.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Then again they probably do not know that there is really no right or wrong height in outlets.


SHHHHH, you're giving him the answers :thumbsup:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> says who??
> 
> The nec?....i'll give ya one cheat on this one, the answer to this one is no....so who says?


ada...... On the job sites I've done work at, all the Electricians have always stated the bottom of the box cannot be any lower than 12'' from the ground, and light switches cannot be any lower than 43 1/2'' (bottom of the box) I was told by an Electrician Americans with Disabilities Act required it. Same with toilet seats from the rim of the toilet not being allowed to be any higher than 18'' from the ground. To raise it up you can use a raised toilet seat if its needed. etc.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 12'' from the ground. and then the bottom of a light switch box has to be no less than 43 1/2 inches from the ground.


Really, are you sure on that? Do you realize what happens if the person in the home is in a wheelchair, or unable to reach down that fair to plug something into the outlet and are physically unable to bend down.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> ada......


OH...so all residences in WA have to conform to ADA standards (which that is not anyway)??


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> ada......


Nope, sorry that is only part of the answer, but not the correct one.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 12'' from the ground. and then the bottom of a light switch box has to be no less than 43 1/2 inches from the ground.


Well 12 inches from AFF level some case it can be too low you have to watch out the ADA requirement so that is the other issue you have to watch for it.

my SOP for receptales useally 16 inch AFF unless noted otherwise and switch and countertop always 46 AFF again noted otherwise.

Merci,
Marc


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

jproffer said:


> OH...so all residences in WA have to conform to ADA standards??


Well, there are all of those tree hugger's and vegans out there.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> ada...... On the job sites I've done work at, all the Electricians have always stated the bottom of the box cannot be any lower than 12'' from the ground, and light switches cannot be any lower than 43 1/2'' (bottom of the box) I was told by an Electrician Americans with Disabilities Act required it. Same with toilet seats from the rim of the toilet not being allowed to be any higher than 18'' from the ground. To raise it up you can use a raised toilet seat if its needed. etc.





gregzoll said:


> Really, are you sure on that? Do you realize what happens if the person in the home is in a wheelchair, or unable to reach down that fair to plug something into the outlet and are physically unable to bend down.


12'' is the minimum distance from the ground, Electricians, not one, but several have told me this. Reason they gave me why, is ADA.

Also, 43 1/2 inches from the floor, puts a light switch in direct reach of someone with a wheel chair. So does putting an outlet on a wall higher than 12 inches (the bottom of it cannot be lower than 12) puts that electrical receptle in plain reach of someone in a wheel chair. For someone to have to bed over but can't, is a special circumstance, which under ADA, would require prior notification for an Electrician to add, or relocate a recepticle higher. But it cannot be lower than 12''


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Well, there are all of those tree hugger's and vegans out there.


I see now why the state abbreviation is WA.




If I had to lean that far over to plug something in, I'd say that too.....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :icon_cry::icon_cry:

Might as well put it in the da** floor!!


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> 12'' is the minimum distance from the ground, Electricians, not one, but several have told me this. Reason they gave me why, is ADA.


 Here, maybe this will help you to better understand the requirements:

"


 *Adult Unobstructed Reach Requirements*
 Electrical outlets and switches, or "receptacles," must comply with "reach ranges" established by ADA in section 308 of the standards. These requirements permit people in wheelchairs to reach the outlets from the front or side. An unobstructed reach means the wheelchair can be placed directly in front of the receptacle or sideways within 10 inches of the receptacle. The receptacle height range for an unobstructed front or side reach is 15 inches minimum from the floor to 48 inches maximum.
 *Adult Obstructed Reach Requirements*


 For a forward reach over an obstacle such as a shelf the requirement is 48 inches maximum above the floor for obstacles 20 inches or less in depth, and 44 inches maximum for obstacles 20 to 25 inches deep. For obstructed side reaches, such as over a table or file cabinet, receptacle minimum height is above the obstacle, which is limited to 34 inches high. The maximum receptacle height is 48 inches for obstacles less than 10 inches wide, and 46 inches for obstacles 10 to 24 inches wide.
 *Reach Limits for Children*


 The receptacle design reach limits for children are also set by the regulations. These limits apply for any construction that will be used primarily by children. Forward or side reach ranges are established in inches for age groups. For ages 3 and 4, ranges are 20 minimum to 36 maximum. For ages 5 through 8, ranges are 18 minimum to 40 maximum. For ages 9 through 12, ranges are 16 minimum to 44 maximum. For children older than 12 years, use the adult ranges.
 *Exceptions*


 The regulations provide for specific exceptions to the reach requirements. For side reaches, an obstruction less than 10 inches wide and 15 inches high does not create an obstructed reach requirement. An example would be reaching a receptacle over a short curb or wall element. A separate exception allows the height of washers and dryers to be 36 inches above a finished floor; the obstructed side reach requirement should be used for receptacle height. There is also an exception for fuel dispensers not related to this article."
 

Read more: ADA Standards of Electrical Mounting Height | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_7736168_ada-standards-electrical-mounting-height.html#ixzz1hWnaQYGH

And one for you from the Mike Holt forums:

The NEC doesn't really address recep height. A recep. higher than 5'6" doesn't count as a covenience outlet. ADA has codes for units that need to be handicap accessible. For me, make sure you & your helper have the same measuring stick.​ 

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=86031

Suggest to get reading, vs listening to old timers and those that just got their license, that have not been in the trade for a long time. That 12" is the min. height from the floor, but can be as high as 16", depending on the hammer being used by the electrician. Some do not even have to measure, they can hit the height right every time, and can draw a straight line without a ruler.
​


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Here, maybe this will help you to better understand the requirements:
> 
> "
> 
> ...


 
SSSOOOOO let's play the measurement game, what is the distance from the bottom edge of a switch to the switch itself?

Now, what is the distance between the bottom edge of a recepticle to the middle?

I know a cheat to the answer of this, I can pull a tape from my garage and check, too. I already know the answer.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> 12'' is the minimum distance from the *ground*


I just want to point something out to you (a moment of weakness)......saying "ground" makes you sound silly.

Obviously it's not from the GROUND (dirt), but I think we all know you mean floor......but even at that.....

Finished floor?
Subfloor?
Floor Joists? (I know that's a stretch)

But really, any height that IS spec'd out is usually assumed to be from the finished floor height, unless otherwise specified.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

I just measured 3 outlets in the room I'm in. I can even take pics for you gents too...

Bottom edges of each recepticle, is 12'' from the floor. This house was built in 2003. 

Measuring to the top of each recepticle, comes to 17''

To the light switches themselves, that's 46''

HOly crap batman!!!

Putting a recepticle 12'' from the floor (from the bottom of the recepticle) puts it 17'' from the ground, 17 1/2 total! HOLY CRAP!!!

Putting a Light switch bottom edge 43 1/2'' from the floor, puts the switches themselves at exactly........ (drums rolling) 46''!!!!!!!!!


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> I just want to point something out to you (a moment of weakness)......saying "ground" makes you sound silly.
> 
> Obviously it's not from the GROUND (dirt), but I think we all know you mean floor......but even at that.....
> 
> ...


:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:.............


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> SSSOOOOO let's play the measurement game, what is the distance from the bottom edge of a switch to the switch itself?
> 
> Now, what is the distance between the bottom edge of a recepticle to the middle?
> 
> I know a cheat to the answer of this, I can pull a tape from my garage and check, too. I already know the answer.


Well, do you really need to know? Suggest reading both the ADA codes for your local city, the state, the fed's, and the NEC. But not every house is going to be the same. Some the switches may be lower, same as the outlets may be higher. It is really dependent of the code at the time, and who the house was built for.

What may look as too low or too high for one person, may be okay for the next. Give you another clue on the height, outlets and switches are typically roughed in before any flooring materials are installed, which those are usually the last items in a new home.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> SSSOOOOO let's play the measurement game, what is the distance from the bottom edge of a switch to the switch itself?
> 
> Now, what is the distance between the bottom edge of a recepticle to the middle?
> 
> I know a cheat to the answer of this, I can pull a tape from my garage and check, too. I already know the answer.


If you put your devices SO close to either end of that range, that you have to even know the "distance from the bottom to the center/switch", you are putting too much effort into it......just put the whole device in range and you know you're OK :thumbsup:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> I just measured 3 outlets in the room I'm in. I can even take pics for you gents too...
> 
> Bottom edges of each recepticle, is 12'' from the floor. This house was built in 2003.
> 
> ...


Who installed the outlets, midgets? Another clue, the measurements is the bottom of the boxes, not the device such as outlet or receptacle.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Well, do you really need to know? Suggest reading both the ADA codes for your local city, the state, the fed's, and the NEC. But not every house is going to be the same. Some the switches may be lower, same as the outlets may be higher. It is really dependent of the code at the time, and who the house was built for.
> 
> What may look as too low or too high for one person, may be okay for the next. Give you another clue on the height, outlets and switches are typically roughed in before any flooring materials are installed, which those are usually the last items in a new home.


I know, I've helped mark and label outlets and switches for rough in, and helped another classmate pull wires at a workbase sight, and even helped with the plumbing rough-in.

Rough Carpentery, Finish Carpentry, Rough Plumbing, Finish Plumbing, Rough Electrical, Finish Electrical, are all apart of my course of instruction. I have never used google once since I've been on here outside of looking up commercial vs residential water heaters, and outside of looking up Chicago building codes.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> 12'' is the minimum distance from the ground, Electricians, not one, but several have told me this. Reason they gave me why, is ADA.
> 
> Also, 43 1/2 inches from the floor, puts a light switch in direct reach of someone with a wheel chair. So does putting an outlet on a wall higher than 12 inches (the* bottom of it* cannot be lower than 12) puts that electrical receptle in plain reach of someone in a wheel chair. For someone to have to bed over but can't, is a special circumstance, which under ADA, would require prior notification for an Electrician to add, or relocate a recepticle higher. But it cannot be lower than 12''


 ...........................................


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

BigGuy01 said:


> ada...... On the job sites I've done work at, all the Electricians have always stated the *bottom of the box* cannot be any lower than 12'' from the ground, and light switches cannot be any lower than 43 1/2'' (*bottom of the box*) I was told by an Electrician Americans with Disabilities Act required it. Same with toilet seats from the rim of the toilet not being allowed to be any higher than 18'' from the ground. To raise it up you can use a raised toilet seat if its needed. etc.


................


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

ADA doesn't apply to every house ever built.

So you can stop the "...................................." like you're schooling us


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Want to know a really quick tip in doing the measurements? Get a chalk line, take a measurement at three to four points along the all, then snap the line within the range, but usually the architect will spec out the height they want on the outlets and light switches, regardless what the range is.

If the inspector comes in and finds that the height installed during rough in, is not the same on the blueprints, guess who gets to go around and pull all of those boxes. You the green coffee runner. Better be listening the next time.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> ADA doesn't apply to every house ever built.
> 
> So you can stop the "...................................." like you're schooling us


It applies to houses built after the policy was enacted. 

It also applies to all commercial buildings. Its why older target stores for example, had to remodel their bathrooms if they didn't meet ADA etc. Same with schools, other shopping centers, etc. etc.

Also, it had nothing to do with schooling anyone, I was pointing out I already said what you were saying.



gregzoll said:


> Want to know a really quick tip in doing the measurements? Get a chalk line, take a measurement at three to four points along the all, then snap the line within the range, but usually the architect will spec out the height they want on the outlets and light switches, regardless what the range is.
> 
> If the inspector comes in and finds that the height installed during rough in, is not the same on the blueprints, guess who gets to go around and pull all of those boxes. You the green coffee runner. Better be listening the next time.


You follow what's on the blue prints. As long as bottom edge of recepticles is not lower than 12'' from the ground, and as long as light switches are not lower than 43 1/2 inches from the ground, they will conform to ADA. If the blueprints say otherwise for bottom edges, then the entire blueprints are not up to code, and are illegal, which will require a redraw of the schematics. 

They have to meet firecode, ada, NEC, WA NEC amendments, and general building code. If any codes are violated, they have to by law have the blueprints redrawn. 

For new construction anyways.... 

In your area as far as electrical work goes, it'd be whatever state or local ammendments to the NEC instead of WA NEC amendments.

EDIT

Also, a little fun fact about Licensed Electricians, at least in WA. They can change elevations of Electrical Fixtures at will if they believe it will conform more to current code. They can also plot out electrical circuits themselves and decide how they want them to look. If it meets building code an electrical inspector cannot argue otherwise for having work that meets or exceeds code. 

Same goes for Plumbing systems and Plumbers. Fixture locations are decided, piping routes etc. can be done at a Plumbers discretion per building code. Only thing that HAS to be met per blue prints, are carpentry structures. Such as wall locations, stud locations, etc. etc. etc. Plumbers and Electricians can add studs at will, and remove/replace framing at will to meet plumbing codes. So long as the overal structure meets building code.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> It applies to houses built after the policy was enacted.
> 
> It also applies to all commercial buildings. Its why older target stores for example, had to remodel their bathrooms if they didn't meet ADA etc. Same with schools, other shopping centers, etc. etc..


Um no, incorrect.



> You follow what's on the blue prints. As long as bottom edge of recepticles is not lower than 12'' from the ground, and as long as light switches are not lower than 43 1/2 inches from the ground, they will conform to ADA. If the blueprints say otherwise for bottom edges, then the entire blueprints are not up to code, and are illegal, which will require a redraw of the schematics.


 redraw what? Do you follow what everyone is stating, or just trying to pull stuff out of the air?



> They have to meet firecode, ada, NEC, WA NEC amendments, and general building code. If any codes are violated, they have to by law have the blueprints redrawn.
> 
> For new construction anyways....
> 
> In your area as far as electrical work goes, it'd be whatever state or local ammendments to the NEC instead of WA NEC amendments.


 Yes, they have to follow various codes. To give you another clue, building blueprints have to be checked off by the building department and engineers will have to approve them, or make changes to the drawings, before anything starts. Also another clue, during the building process, drawings are changed all of the time, outlets are changed also, along with other stuff. You could end up with a drawing looking like the Paris city roadways, by the time the various subs are done making their changes on the fly, due to something happens, or the building owner no longer decided that they needed that extra conference room, or the home owner decided to take that extra bedroom, and now wants a walk-in closet, or home theater room.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Um no, incorrect.
> 
> redraw what? Do you follow what everyone is stating, or just trying to pull stuff out of the air?
> 
> Yes, they have to follow various codes. To give you another clue, building blueprints have to be checked off by the building department and engineers will have to approve them, or make changes to the drawings, before anything starts. Also another clue, during the building process, drawings are changed all of the time, outlets are changed also, along with other stuff. You could end up with a drawing looking like the Paris city roadways, by the time the various subs are done making their changes on the fly, due to something happens, or the building owner no longer decided that they needed that extra conference room, or the home owner decided to take that extra bedroom, and now wants a walk-in closet, or home theater room.


Read above

Mentioned it in my above edit before you posted

EDIT

Engineers only deal with the structure itself. 

Electrical Plot Plan will only list where electrical fixtures themselves are located. Electricians (Licensed Electricians who have 10,000+hrs aka An Electrician with a LIcense) can alter their locations as deemed necissary provided it meets Electrical Codes. Same with Licensed Plumbers and Plumbing Fixtures. They can relocate fixtures if they wanted if they feel it would be better suited for the design/location of a room or living area or location. As long as what they do meets building code.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Bigguy, trades can not just come up with changes and make them, especially on a commercial job site. It has to go through a approval process, which is usually no more than the architect, the engineer for that trade, and the GC having a quick chat over a cup of coffee, or a smoke break. Only time that I know of that trades just do what they want, is in a resi build, and at most, the home barely stands up by itself after most builders get done trying to get out of there as quick as possible. Wait until you get to work on a house that is older, and everyone and their brother, and cousin Bubba & other cousin Billy-bob have done everything that they can to practically make the place barely safe structurally, or conditionally safe with electric or mechanicals.

When you have done that, then come back and tell everyone how bad you have it. You have not seen bad, until you get handed a job, that was never done correct from the beginning, or you have a contractor come through, and are told to pull one circuit, due to it is no longer being used, and in turn cut another circuit that is still in use, and you have to stand on the top of a twenty foot ladder splicing a fifty pair communication line into a junction box. Or even better, laying on your back in mud under a home or manufactured home, fixing someone else's problems, or pulling new plumbing, electric, etc.. Even better, going into a attic in the middle of Summer, and the attic is over 130 degrees, to redo a bunch of chewed through electrical wiring.

We all will be here waiting to hear from you.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> It applies to houses built after the policy was enacted.


OK, I don't know much about commercial buildings, but as far as residential that is just TOTALLY WRONG.


***sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh***

The following is NOT just about the post I quoted, or even JUST this thread:

I think you need to take a bit more responsibility in the advice you give. Giving someone mis-information in THIS (the electrical) forum could cost someone their home or worse. There is no shame in saying "I don't know"...or if you think you know, there's no shame in qualifying your answer with a 'disclaimer'..."I think you could do it this way, but I'm not 100% sure so please, for your own sake, wait until someone confirms what I've said"

I'm not trying to put you down, although I'm sure that's how it's coming off...but really, you have to be careful...ESP. here....some people come on here by a google search...they register for the sole purpose of asking one question.........so they ask it, you tell them something that's not as accurate as you think it is, and they run off to do what you told them.......and they burn their house down (if your lucky they ONLY burn their house down).

I know we're supposed to be respectful, and I'm really trying to be...but...it's hard to say what I wanted to say and still have an air of "being respectful", and for that I apologize.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

BigGuy01 said:


> Read above
> 
> Mentioned it in my above edit before you posted
> 
> ...


 Hope you do not tell the boss that, when you have the hvac engineer standing in front of you.



> Electrical Plot Plan will only list where electrical fixtures themselves are located. Electricians (Licensed Electricians who have 10,000+hrs aka An Electrician with a LIcense) can alter their locations as deemed necissary provided it meets Electrical Codes. Same with Licensed Plumbers and Plumbing Fixtures. They can relocate fixtures if they wanted if they feel it would be better suited for the design/location of a room or living area or location. As long as what they do meets building code.


If you are a student, then why do you keep telling everyone this? If you have not noticed again, this is a DIY site. Suggest if you want to keep discussing what you can and can not do, and talk about codes, etc, there is the sister site for the trades, or the Mike Holt forum. Been fun, but this is just getting ridiculous at this point.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

gregzoll said:


> If you are a student, then why do you keep telling everyone this? If you have not noticed again, this is a DIY site. Suggest if you want to keep discussing what you can and can not do, and talk about codes, etc, there is the sister site for the trades, or the Mike Holt forum. Been fun, but this is just getting ridiculous at this point.


I agree with this due we are about hitting 160 posting here.

Bigguy.,

You can continude in Electrician talk ( that is our sister site ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Bigguy, trades can not just come up with changes and make them, especially on a commercial job site. It has to go through a approval process, which is usually no more than the architect, the engineer for that trade, and the GC having a quick chat over a cup of coffee, or a smoke break. Only time that I know of that trades just do what they want, is in a resi build, and at most, the home barely stands up by itself after most builders get done trying to get out of there as quick as possible. Wait until you get to work on a house that is older, and everyone and their brother, and cousin Bubba & other cousin Billy-bob have done everything that they can to practically make the place barely safe structurally, or conditionally safe with electric or mechanicals.
> 
> When you have done that, then come back and tell everyone how bad you have it. You have not seen bad, until you get handed a job, that was never done correct from the beginning, or you have a contractor come through, and are told to pull one circuit, due to it is no longer being used, and in turn cut another circuit that is still in use, and you have to stand on the top of a twenty foot ladder splicing a fifty pair communication line into a junction box. Or even better, laying on your back in mud under a home or manufactured home, fixing someone else's problems, or pulling new plumbing, electric, etc.. Even better, going into a attic in the middle of Summer, and the attic is over 130 degrees, to redo a bunch of chewed through electrical wiring.
> 
> We all will be here waiting to hear from you.


Everything you just listed outside of climing the 25ft latter (because I pay attention when doing electrical) and going into a 130 degree attic I've done. 

If fix F* ups quite a bit, even in class because several particular classmates don't know wth they are doing, I'm usually fixing their screw ups. 

Dealing with older homes, I've done enough of it as it is, I've even built a home from the very foundation to the complete structure. I have helped in the repair of 30-60 year old residential structures, and have aided in the repair and maintenance of 30-60 year old commercial structures. My entire training course is repairing and maintaining pre existing systems and structures, to include bringing them to code when required. It is not some BS HS garbage. I am not in High School, I am not in some BS goody boy school. I am in a Federal Funded Training Program and learn to do this kind of work. 

In fact, of the crap you listed, I've done all of that but 2 items on your list, TO also add to crawling underneath a house flooded with 11 degree water from rain coming into the crawl space in the middle of november to pull pipes through the subfloor. To include digging 2ft wide 5 1/2 deep trenches to connect a house to its sewer main. 

I have had to replace siding, caulking, remodeling an entire houses basement, and back home on break spending most of break fixing wannabe DIY Handymen work because they can't mentally comprehend the difference between a 2x4 and a 2x6 and can't mentally comprehend why you have to have the studs vertically level, and why you can't put 2x4s 24'' apart when its required to be 16 for 2x4s.

I've already dealt with and have had to fix enough wannabe handymen's crap. Thank you very much.

Regarding J, 

It actually is true. At least in WASHINGTON, all houses built after ADA rulings, have to conform to ADA, to include counters, etc. etc. Same with Commercial Buildings even. The brand new bill and millenda gates foundation building? Everything in it is ADA complient, because it's a commercial building. 

All Commercial Buildings have had to be reorgenized, modified, etc. to conform to ADA, newer buildings have to be build to ADA specs. 

Regarding Tradesmen, they absolutely can make modifications on the spot if it needs to be done. In their case it's a phone call away, describe what's going on, 99 out of 100 times it'll be approved, they then go with it. And mark changes on the blue prints. 

Engineers and Architects, deal largely with the shape/design of the structure. Individual Mechanical and Electrical systems, are outlined, which can be modified by a Licensed Electrician/Plumber/HVAC-R Tech as needed to conform to codes. They do not rush anything. 

Project Supervisors and/or the General Foreman, can make changes on the fly, because they licensed to do it on the job site. They mark and list changes and modifications, and put them in notes for the blueprints, and then redraw the blueprints later to reflect the changes they made. SO long as the don't comprimise design/shape of the building and its structural integrity. I do not know how it is in your state, but in WA, they can, and do do this.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Hope you do not tell the boss that, when you have the hvac engineer standing in front of you.
> 
> If you are a student, then why do you keep telling everyone this? If you have not noticed again, this is a DIY site. Suggest if you want to keep discussing what you can and can not do, and talk about codes, etc, there is the sister site for the trades, or the Mike Holt forum. Been fun, but this is just getting ridiculous at this point.


Because you started it.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

BigGuy01 said:


> Because you started it.


And that is the last word (or we all hope so).


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

In this thread maybe.....take a look around and you'll find he's not done yet


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

frenchelectrican said:


> I agree with this due we are about hitting 160 posting here.
> 
> Bigguy.,
> 
> ...


Come on Marc!

That's like sending the lamb to the slaughter house!:laughing:


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

There is a wealth of information available here from professionals and experienced handymen. I myself have experience but there isn't a time I go on this board that I don't learn some additional tip or trick to help me with my projects, both home and work related. As long as I keep an open mind I will learn, and I greatly appreciate any advice I have been given. On the other side of that there will always be some posters...or should I say "posers" who think they know everything, brag about their knowledge, whether it be real or not. Those "posers" will never learn anything from this board, except that those of us that know what we are talking about tend to stick together and help those who need it. And some have a lot to learn and until they are willing to learn we tend to eventually ignore them until they actually become a congribution to this board......and I now step down off of my soap box.

Merry Christmas


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> Must be an Easy Bake with a 100watt bulb.


now thats funny,i dont care who you are! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

jproffer said:


> In this thread maybe.....take a look around and you'll find he's not done yet


Did he ever go to bed last night? As a kid, he sure has done a lot. I am in my forties, and I do not think that I have as much as experience as this guy does. Or then again maybe I do.

Personally, he would not last long in the military, with his great "knowledge" and telling people how it is, nor once he gets out there on a big job with a lot of trades, and has forty different bosses telling him how they want something, then getting pulled to go somewhere else to do something else. But little does he know, he is not going to be doing all trades on that site, so he better choose wisely.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Did he ever go to bed last night?


I don't know if HE did, but I did....I was up late, but 2am is about all this old man can give to the cause, lol.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> ada...... On the job sites I've done work at, all the Electricians have always stated the bottom of the box cannot be any lower than 12'' from the ground, and light switches cannot be any lower than 43 1/2'' (bottom of the box) I was told by an Electrician Americans with Disabilities Act required it. Same with toilet seats from the rim of the toilet not being allowed to be any higher than 18'' from the ground. To raise it up you can use a raised toilet seat if its needed. etc.


People in a chair are going to have a tough time reaching plugs that are 12" to bottem of box,thats roughly 14" and change to center of box.
I normally put mine at 16" to bottem of plug boxes and 48" top of switch boxes.:whistling2:
If im doing a house/room for an ADA person I usually wire things to fit their personal needs/preferences


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> Read above
> 
> Mentioned it in my above edit before you posted
> 
> ...


Electrical plot plan?


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

That only shows the underground wiring....:jester:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

I was going to say plummen, aren't outlets in commercial buildings 16", and switches a little lower? I know that every time I walk into my office, the switches feel a lot lower than they are in my home, and I know that the outlets are higher. Hmmn, could it be because people tend to sit in their chair, whether it is a desk chair, wheelchair or other assistance device to plug stuff into the wall outlet.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Nobody else does them exactly the same level as I do,after 30 years in the trades and 3 pacemakers Ive learned not to worry so much about little things.
Well somedays anyways! :laughing:
Oh what the hell lets ask him the code requirement for plug spacing/layout in residential buildings ,and for commercial buildings.
Commercial buildings should be a tough one! :laughing:


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Commercial buildings should be a tough one!


Would be for me too. If I had to guess, I'd say the residential would be a tough one too....for....SOME (1) of us


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Even better, is it okay to use junction boxes in a resi for retro-fits on electric, along with making splices inside Fuse & Breaker panels. He would have been fun, when we PM'd switchboards, or even better, had to lift a 1ton 3ph motor for the exhaust for one of our engine rooms, four decks up in a 130+ ambient air temp, with 70%+ humidity space, that was about 20x20 in size, with about twenty guys in there trying to not only get the outer steel duct piping lifted and shifted, but then having to manipulate both laterally and vertically at the same time to separate the two.

I am sure that he has done that too, along crawling into a 2x6 space with only 4 feet of headroom to work on a sea valve, due to your idiot seamate (E-5 at that), decided to twist the Pitsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_sword) inside the valve, in turn causing the gaskets that seal the top plate and the valve into the gate valve. Only thing stopping the water was the sword, and the fact that we had a ballast space pump running at full force to keep our shop from flooding. And then after getting done with that, going out and fixing a problem with the windbirds. Boy, I think that I had more full days in 24 hours, than he probably has, in my four years in the Navy.

Yes, I too learned after getting out, that at 22 you do not need to stress out about the little stuff, due to it drove me batty trying to act like I knew everything at that age, when I learned real quick, that you better listen to the senior crew members, and the chiefs from all trades on board.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Batter up? wheres he at anyway?
Maybe its his day to carry the suitcase with the code book in it :whistling2::laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> Even better, is it okay to use junction boxes in a resi for retro-fits on electric, along with making splices inside Fuse & Breaker panels. He would have been fun, when we PM'd switchboards, or even better, had to lift a 1ton 3ph motor for the exhaust for one of our engine rooms, four decks up in a 130+ ambient air temp, with 70%+ humidity space, that was about 20x20 in size, with about twenty guys in there trying to not only get the outer steel duct piping lifted and shifted, but then having to manipulate both laterally and vertically at the same time to separate the two.
> 
> I am sure that he has done that too, along crawling into a 2x6 space with only 4 feet of headroom to work on a sea valve, due to your idiot seamate (E-5 at that), decided to twist the Pitsword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_sword) inside the valve, in turn causing the gaskets that seal the top plate and the valve into the gate valve. Only thing stopping the water was the sword, and the fact that we had a ballast space pump running at full force to keep our shop from flooding. And then after getting done with that, going out and fixing a problem with the windbirds. Boy, I think that I had more full days in 24 hours, than he probably has, in my four years in the Navy.
> 
> Yes, I too learned after getting out, that at 22 you do not need to stress out about the little stuff, due to it drove me batty trying to act like I knew everything at that age, when I learned real quick, that you better listen to the senior crew members, and the chiefs from all trades on board.


I went in the Army at 17 wanting to get away from home,took me all of about 15 minutes to realize there were much bigger pricks in the world than dear old dad! :yes::laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Missouri Bound said:


> And a very Merry Christmas to you and everyone else here!!


:thumbsup:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> 50 years because that is what a Plumber told me, it takes 50 years Plumbing Experience to truly know WTF you're doing. A Plumber who's been a Plumber for 55 years going on 56 in the Plumbing Trade told me that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anybody who would shoot jonny in the head through a wall with a ramset is total dumbass,why waste the shell and pin on jonny?
If hes that much of a pain in the ass id go to the other side of wall and push him off his ladder or just hit him with a hammer to shut him up! :laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> Probably does not know the trick of standing his hammer up, with the head on the ground, then placing the bottom of the box at where the top of the handle ends up. Comes up right every time. Then again they probably do not know that there is really no right or wrong height in outlets.


Till you find out you and thehelper have 2 differant lengths of hammers! :thumbup::laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

jbfan said:


> Come on Marc!
> 
> That's like sending the lamb to the slaughter house!:laughing:


Yeah I know .,:laughing::whistling2:

And we know what happend in there.

Anyway Happy Holidays for ya.

Merci,
Marc


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## staygreen (May 13, 2016)

A magnetic ballast for two T12 8ft tubes died on me. Replaced it with a commercial grade electronic ballast. It created unwatchable TV picture with snowy screen and staticy sound. Traded in for a residential model and problem went away. I suspect it's cheaper to manufacture commercial ballast that generates RF interference rather than residential ones that are quiet. Not necessarily that it's a better ballast or more beefy or anything like that. If it lights up the tubes, that's what they are supposed to do. Commercial ones don't care if it messes up the TV picture in a building with no TV sets. 

As for all the controversy about commercial stuff voiding homeowner's insurance, I'd call my insurance Co. and inquire. If they say anything commercial voids policy, I'd start shopping immediately for another company!!


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Zombie thread.


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