# Windows 10



## TheEplumber

I currently have windows 7 on my desk top. For the last couple days I've been getting notifications in my task bar for a free windows 10 upgrade.

Why would I do that if I'm happy with my current system? Will it become necessary at some point? What makes 10 better?
Thoughts or opinions please


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## Fix'n it

i just came here to ask the same exact question. i am wondering if it is some kind of scam. i heard 8 sucks, i tried it a very little and didn't like it. so why, for now, use an upgraded version of sucky


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## Fix'n it

i just googled it. its not a scam. i will wait.


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## gregzoll

It is a push for Microsoft to start getting clients in line, to become the next level of Beta Testers. The best thing I love/hate about 10. Is that MS is going to use clients machines without their permission to become P2P bots, to help increase download availability for updates.

Looks like a lot of people are going to be jumping on the Linux or Mac OS-X bandwagon in this particular case.

There is no reason that MS should have the ability to use a customer's machine that is running their OS as a bot.


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## NickTheGreat

If it ain't broke don't fix it!

7 is probably the best MS OS to date. 8 sucks hard. 8.1 sucks moderately.

10 looks promising, but I'd wait for the verdict on that


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## rusty baker

With 10, all updates will be mandatory, no way to opt out. So when they release one of those updates that screws up everything, they will all be screwed up. It will officially be out July 29th.


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## ZZZZZ

They can pry XP-SP3 out of my cold dead keyboard.:laughing:

I have 8.1 on my laptop which I rarely use. I will upgrade to 10, just because 10 _*can't*_ be any worse than 8. :laughing:

I think the reason they skipped 9 was that it _*was *_worse than 8. :laughing:


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## TheBobmanNH

There's no reason to believe that updates will be mandatory on Windows 10. Updates were mandatory on the preview versions, because they're preview versions.

They've also announced that they will have an *opt-in* way of getting updates from multiple sources, IE P2P, but nowhere in that does it say that you, the user, will be a server in that P2P transaction, just that you're pulling from more than one server.

Some of your concerns MIGHT be true but I wouldn't present them as fact just yet.


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## yuri

From what I read on their upgrade site there are multiple version of 7 Ie: Home Premium, Enterprise, SP1 etc etc. There is a disclaimer that some will lose features with Win 10 or require a media player seperate etc.

IMO they are clever and using psychology. 8 is a marketing disaster as well as functionally clumsy as he*ll. They don't want the new version to be 9 as people will associate it as a upgrade. 10 distances itself psychologically, clever.

I setup a new puter with 8.1 for Dad a week ago. It works OK if you don't mind jumping back to the 7 page for certain functions. 8 is designed to be used on tablets that have no keyboard/touchscreen so they had to go with that goofy corner biz. The software companies are so incredibly arrogant these days as they assume all the $$ comes from these 18-28 yrs old tech lovers who grow up with it and want to have it on all their devices and question nothing. Gotta have the latest supposedly greatest. However even they did not like the da*mn clumsy nonsense.

10 is supposed to integrate both so you can use a keyboard and mouse and not have to flip to the 7 page. 8 was a disaster and BAD for their biz and name. Trickles down to their X box sales and the HUGE $$ are in selling video games so they need to get everyone happy with the MS name.

I will not upgrade as it very likely will have issues with Norton and McAfee etc and it will take 6 months for them to talk to each other and get on the same page. Not to mention what it may do with other software I have.

With a new computer I may not mind. Too much to go wrong with the existing one which works just fine the way it is.


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## TheBobmanNH

yuri said:


> IMO they are clever and using psychology. 8 is a marketing disaster as well as functionally clumsy as he*ll. They don't want the new version to be 9 as people will associate it as a upgrade. 10 distances itself psychologically, clever.


Wild speculation aside, this is more than likely the real reason that there is no Windows 9 -- the huge number of third party vendors / drivers that have code like this :


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## yuri

It is a scary world on the net. The hackers are so clever they can make fake Adobe reader update pages. One pops up and people see the logo and figure it is legit and download it. Can be a virus. I use McAfee and it ask if you want to download or run it. I then check if it has a verified signature as they have a box where they check the authenticity of the site. Like Verified by VISA. If it is a safe verified Adobe site I go ahead. Point being people don't know and if looks legit they can get burned. Same with fake bank popups/emails. Now with this "cloud" business IMO people are way too trusting in letting their files get stored there. How do you know who can hack into it or access it.

MS and Google and others are VERY clever. They are conditioning a generation of people to use and trust the net for everything and can spy on them. My 6 and 9 yr old nephews will grow up with it and trust it as they have no idea where it came from. MS et all really don't care about some 55 yr old fart and his life they are conditioning the next generation. There is HUGE HUGE $$ in video games like World of Warcraft etc and they need to keep the generation that is like my nephews loyal and buying them. And to spy on them and build a personality profile.


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## TheBobmanNH

Your kids will be FAR more savvy than you are, believe me. The people who are clicking those fake update pages or bank pages aren't kids who grew up knowing about the net and all the dangers therein, they're 55-year old farts who look at the Internet like this nefarious and mysterious monster. 

MS and Google are not sentient beings, they're just companies. There are a lot of bad business practices out there but worry about yourself, the kids will figure it out. Hell, they're the ones that will be writing all this code in 5 years.

I'm not trying ot be rude or dismissive but the fear-mongering is a little over-the-top.


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## rusty baker

TheBobmanNH said:


> There's no reason to believe that updates will be mandatory on Windows 10. Updates were mandatory on the preview versions, because they're preview versions.
> 
> They've also announced that they will have an *opt-in* way of getting updates from multiple sources, IE P2P, but nowhere in that does it say that you, the user, will be a server in that P2P transaction, just that you're pulling from more than one server.
> 
> Some of your concerns MIGHT be true but I wouldn't present them as fact just yet.


They have already announced that updates will be mandatory. 
http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/1/8696949/windows-10-feature-loss


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## yuri

Fear mongering.

Naw, I am just surprised about this "cloud" business and the way people trust putting their personal info on facebook etc. These companies build profiles which may be benign as they want to target people for advertising. I don't trust the net with personal info as there has been way too many cases of major companies data bases being hacked ( Home Depot etc ) but if people want to put their info on a "cloud" and get their identity hacked that is their choice.


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## xD Lucas

According to most techie sites, it's recommended to upgrade to Windows 10, not because of the advanced security over Windows 7/8/8.1, but it's more stable.


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## yuri

My concern is that Norton and McAfee etc take 6 months to figure out what MS 10 is about and there is no free happy quick sharing of info between MS and them. If 10 has some major incompatibilities with your anti-virus and you cannot revert back to 7 you are creating a lot of trouble for yourself. 

I would wait at least 6 months and let someone else do the beta testing/ real world testing on that issue. Read about it later to see if there are issues. They are already indicating there may be incompatibilities with your Win 7 so why take the chance if what you have works OK now. There may be problems with your drivers etc so who needs the hassle. Not me.:no:


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## xD Lucas

yuri said:


> My concern is that Norton and McAfee etc take 6 months to figure out what MS 10 is about and there is no free happy quick sharing of info between MS and them. If 10 has some major incompatibilities with your anti-virus and you cannot revert back to 7 you are creating a lot of trouble for yourself.
> 
> I would wait at least 6 months and let someone else do the beta testing/ real world testing on that issue. Read about it later to see if there are issues. They are already indicating there may be incompatibilities with your Win 7 so why take the chance if what you have works OK now. There may be problems with your drivers etc so who needs the hassle. Not me.:no:


Frankly, I haven't used an AV for years. The majority of the time, when they do find a virus, it can't properly dispose of them. The best AV is common sense. If you don't know what it is, don't download it.


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## yuri

A router works well as they cannot port scan. Good firewall and router may take care of most of it but I still like a anit-virus as every bit of defense helps. I get no e-mail spam with McAfee.


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## NickTheGreat

ZZZZZ said:


> They can pry XP-SP3 out of my cold dead keyboard.:laughing:
> 
> I have 8.1 on my laptop which I rarely use. I will upgrade to 10, just because 10 _*can't*_ be any worse than 8. :laughing:
> 
> I think the reason they skipped 9 was that it _*was *_worse than 8. :laughing:


You should be fine with 1o. Microsoft OS's have a very proven track record pattern of good/bad/good/bad. 

:laughing:


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## rusty baker

yuri said:


> Fear mongering.
> 
> Naw, I am just surprised about this "cloud" business and the way people trust putting their personal info on facebook etc. These companies build profiles which may be benign as they want to target people for advertising. I don't trust the net with personal info as there has been way too many cases of major companies data bases being hacked ( Home Depot etc ) but if people want to put their info on a "cloud" and get their identity hacked that is their choice.


I agree. And some people do their banking from their phones and have apps on there like "tapatalk" which is based in Shanghai, China. I really trust communist China with my personal info.:whistling2:


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## ZZZZZ

rusty baker said:


> I really trust communist China with my personal info.:whistling2:


With the NSA, the USA isn't any better.


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## rusty baker

ZZZZZ said:


> With the NSA, the USA isn't any better.


True, sadly true.


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## rossfingal

I would not upgrade to "Win 10" - yet.
Stay away from the offer to upgrade - for free - to "10".
I've got "7" - stable enough!!

rossfingal


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## rusty baker

I guess my W 7 isn't eligible for the free upgrade anyway. I did not get the notice.


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## yuri

Mine is Home Premium and they say some of it won't be compatible. Read the fine print is what I recommend. They mention anyone may have driver and firmware problems. IMO it will take them a year to iron out the wrinkles from 10. Doubt you want to be the first one to get it as their track record has not been good. How many service packs have they had. Not once has any version been w/o serious problems. After a year if the reviews are good I may be interested. Not in the begining.

There should be a icon at the bottom lower right of your screen by the clock. Not sure how they sneaked that in there and now it won't go away.


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## ZZZZZ

yuri said:


> Not sure how they sneaked that in there and now it won't go away.


Comes from a "Windows Update" to your existing O/S.


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## TheEplumber

yuri said:


> Mine is Home Premium and they say some of it won't be compatible. Read the fine print is what I recommend. They mention anyone may have driver and firmware problems. IMO it will take them a year to iron out the wrinkles from 10. Doubt you want to be the first one to get it as their track record has not been good. How many service packs have they had. Not once has any version been w/o serious problems. After a year if the reviews are good I may be interested. Not in the begining.
> 
> There should be a icon at the bottom lower right of your screen by the clock. Not sure how they sneaked that in there and now it won't go away.


I really don't plan on testing it. However, why not download it or reserve the download now? Will MS charge for it at a later date (ie: you snooze-you lose)- assuming 7 will lose compatibility at some point?


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## JClishe

yuri said:


> Fear mongering.
> 
> Naw, I am just surprised about this "cloud" business and the way people trust putting their personal info on facebook etc. These companies build profiles which may be benign as they want to target people for advertising. I don't trust the net with personal info as there has been way too many cases of major companies data bases being hacked ( Home Depot etc ) but if people want to put their info on a "cloud" and get their identity hacked that is their choice.


All of the major breaches you've seen make headlines have not been "the cloud". Home Depot, Target, Anthem, etc. These companies had their own private datacenters breached. If you used your credit card to pay for something at a Target or Home Depot store, then boom, you are at risk of having your personal and financial information compromised. Had nothing whatsoever to do with the cloud. Actually, technically, both the Home Depot and Target hacks were from malware that made its way onto their point of sale systems and collected credit card information right there at the terminal when you swiped your card. Again, nothing to do with the cloud at all.

As of right now, there have been no known breaches involving personal or financial information, etc., of any major public cloud provider (Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc.). The only exception I can think of is all the nude celebrity photos that were stolen form iCloud recently. So in reality, the cloud has a better security track record than large organizations own private datacenters. Which of course makes sense. The large public cloud providers have exponentially more resources to invest in security resources and personnel than private organizations like Home Depot and Target have to secure their own data centers so yeah, of course, the major cloud providers should be more secure and the historical data proves that to be the case.


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## rusty baker

ZZZZZ said:


> Comes from a "Windows Update" to your existing O/S.


I didn't get it.


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## yuri

TheEplumber said:


> I really don't plan on testing it. However, why not download it or reserve the download now? Will MS charge for it at a later date (ie: you snooze-you lose)- assuming 7 will lose compatibility at some point?



It will be free forever. They want people to reserve it so they can stagger the load on their servers. If everyone tries to get it on the same day it can crash them.

When my computers get too slow to load web pages fast enough due to the buss speed I replace them.

7 works great for me and I have some very high end touchy video games ( Sid Meiers Civilization 5 and Beyond Earth ) and I am concerned 10 won't work properly or have issues. Takes 6 months or more before they sort out all the issues or in compatibilities and I don't need the hassle.


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## ZZZZZ

To be clear, the upgrades may be free, but when people buy a new PC or laptop, you sure as heck will be paying for it.


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## gregzoll

TheBobmanNH Windows 10 updates are mandatory, with no choice to opt out. See the following from Mary Jo Foley. There is no way to get around the mandatory "We own your computer, if you use Windows 10. Welcome to the Borg Collective/Skynet."

http://www.zdnet.com/article/piecing-together-the-windows-as-a-service-puzzle-for-windows-10/

I am not finding anything that states if you block the P2P ports for the updates. That it would cause the OS to lock you out from using, until you comply with their rules & join the collective.

I am sure there is something buried out there that states about the update rules.

On the other hand. I am sure that come the 29th of July when 10 gets released out to the consumer. That someone has already figured out how to to embed a Trojan Horse inside the P2P/bot.

Personally I find that this whole new update scheme is going to cause more headaches than it is worth.

A lot are gambling that there will be more jumping ship, once they find out that Microsoft takes full control of your computer, by allowing them to state that your computer is no longer your property, if you choose to run Windows 10.

This is a forced upgrade for everyone running 7 & 8.1.1. There is no way to stop Microsoft from forcing this down users throats.

It will only get worse with the Enterprise environment. Especially in the Government sector.

It is really not that hard to state that Surface owners will end up abandoning that platform for the next MacBook, which is rumored to have a touch screen.

On top of that, the more savy users will start possibly moving to Chrome Books or replacing Windows for Linux.

I do not see this as a smart move by Microsoft's sales department. If Windows 10 does not sink them. Microsoft is going to be putting out a lot of fires, from angry consumers that want to be in control of the OS installed on their computer. Not the other way around, by giving full control to Microsoft.


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## TheBobmanNH

gregzoll said:


> TheBobmanNH Windows 10 updates are mandatory, with no choice to opt out. See the following from Mary Jo Foley.
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/piecing-together-the-windows-as-a-service-puzzle-for-windows-10/


Mmm, i saw that. It seems getting the more expensive versions of Windows may give you some flexibility but it's still unfortunate -- we've all seen inadvertant bugs and whatnot from Windows updates.



I know my posts in this thread come off as me being a Microsoft apologist, and I'm NOT really, but I am a rational person who at least tries to see most of these decisions from a developers perpsective. I think Windows 8 / 8.1 is really frustratingly bad, especially after 7 was such a good step in the right direction, and I curse Windows like, daily from a user perspective. But from a designer perspective, I do think a lot of you guys just get SO worked up, treating all this stuff as a big malicious bid to control your life. As someone who works in and with technology, I can tell you that for the vast majority of these things, it's really about trying to get a more seamless experience for the user. MS isn't forcing updates to get you to join some sort of SkyNet cult, they're doing it because huge security holes and vulnerabilities pop up all the time, and idiot users refuse to patch them, which leads to stories about huge Microsoft vulnerabilities (or Apple, or whoever). Same reason Apple locks EVERYTHING on their iOS platform down -- if you mess around with something and it breaks, it reflects poorly on them, and they lose a customer, or have a PR nightmare and lose thousands of customers, who knows. 

The vast majority of Windows users are NOT savvy, and giving them even the POSSIBILITY of having control over updates is a terrible idea, because they're morons. Every time I have to fix a friend or family member computer because it's laden with viruses, it's inevitably months or years out of date, and their antivirus expired three Presidents ago. It would be nice if one could sign an "I'm not a moron" waiver and get around this stuff, but good luck getting anyone to admit they're a moron.

I honestly want to know.... do you not install Windows Updates on your current machine? What exactly is your rule of thumb? You wait a week to install stuff to make sure it's not bad? I mean, I get not liking the "forced" updates on principle, but pragmatically how does it change your behavior, out of curiosity? Because if you're paranoid about updates and not applying them... that's definitely cutting off your nose to spite your face.

As far as saying Windows 10 is a "forced update" for WIndows 7/8 users ... that's a little misleading. Windows has extended support for Windows 7 slated until 2020. They won't force you to update, they just won't actively support your old product. Just like eveyr other software producer on the planet -- especially Apple, by the way, who you seem to think everyone is going to jump ship to. Apple doesn't actively support ANY old OS's, and everyone praises them for being less "fragmented" because they essentially "force" all their users to upgrade. Outside of military / aerospace -- where they pay a HUGE premium for 20 or 30 years of software support -- getting more than 5 years of active support is unheard of in the software world, especially at the Windows price point. And considering how upset you are at the prospect of forced updates in the first place, I'd think MS dropping support for a product would be a boon for you -- you won't have to worry about them pushing out any updates.


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## NickTheGreat

gregzoll said:


> TheBobmanNH Windows 10 updates are mandatory, with no choice to opt out. See the following from Mary Jo Foley. There is no way to get around the mandatory "We own your computer, if you use Windows 10. Welcome to the Borg Collective/Skynet."
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/piecing-together-the-windows-as-a-service-puzzle-for-windows-10/
> 
> I am not finding anything that states if you block the P2P ports for the updates. That it would cause the OS to lock you out from using, until you comply with their rules & join the collective.
> 
> I am sure there is something buried out there that states about the update rules.
> 
> On the other hand. I am sure that come the 29th of July when 10 gets released out to the consumer. That someone has already figured out how to to embed a Trojan Horse inside the P2P/bot.
> 
> Personally I find that this whole new update scheme is going to cause more headaches than it is worth.
> 
> A lot are gambling that there will be more jumping ship, once they find out that Microsoft takes full control of your computer, by allowing them to state that your computer is no longer your property, if you choose to run Windows 10.
> 
> This is a forced upgrade for everyone running 7 & 8.1.1. There is no way to stop Microsoft from forcing this down users throats.
> 
> It will only get worse with the Enterprise environment. Especially in the Government sector.
> 
> It is really not that hard to state that Surface owners will end up abandoning that platform for the next MacBook, which is rumored to have a touch screen.
> 
> On top of that, the more savy users will start possibly moving to Chrome Books or replacing Windows for Linux.
> 
> I do not see this as a smart move by Microsoft's sales department. If Windows 10 does not sink them. Microsoft is going to be putting out a lot of fires, from angry consumers that want to be in control of the OS installed on their computer. Not the other way around, by giving full control to Microsoft.


MS still has the mindset that you can't do anything about it. What choice do you have, switch to another OS? HAHAHAHAHA :laughing:

10 years ago that was true. Now there are other options. I still don't see "the real world" switching away from MS, but I kinda hope it will happen :thumbsup:


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## rusty baker

W 10 is supposed to be a rented OS with an expiration date too, like Office 365. (It is good for three years with a fourth year option.) No word on the limit for W 10. There again, when W11 (?) comes out, it will be a forced upgrade.
They are not going to force anyone to upgrade from W7, 8.1 or 8.3 to W10, they are just not going to do any updates.


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## JClishe

I work for Microsoft and I'd like to clear up some confusion / misinformation that is being presented in this thread:



gregzoll said:


> TheBobmanNH Windows 10 updates are mandatory, with no choice to opt out. See the following from Mary Jo Foley. There is no way to get around the mandatory "We own your computer, if you use Windows 10. Welcome to the Borg Collective/Skynet."


You own your computer, but you are licensing the rights to use the operating system on it. Windows is not yours, just like OS X is not yours. And for that matter, no piece of software that you've ever purchased is yours. You're simply purchasing the rights to use it, and you must always comply to the use rights that the software maker has chosen to enforce. When you click "agree" to the use rights before you install any application, you are formally acknowledging that you understand that you don't own the software and you agree to comply with whatever usage rights the vendor is granting you. Windows 10 isn't introducing any changes to the way software licensing has always worked for decades.



gregzoll said:


> I am not finding anything that states if you block the P2P ports for the updates. That it would cause the OS to lock you out from using, until you comply with their rules & join the collective.


Microsoft is introducing a new update mechanism call Windows Update for Business that ONLY applies to Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise editions. One of the features of Windows Update for Business is P2P distribution of updates. This is entirely optional, IT departments can choose whether or not to use this, but all of my customers are very much looking forward to using this in their branch offices to reduce bandwidth consumption used by updates. In a business context, this is a much-requested feature, and like I said above, this is ONLY a business feature. The P2P update option is a) optional, and b) for business SKU's only. You will not see this on your personal devices at home. 



gregzoll said:


> This is a forced upgrade for everyone running 7 & 8.1.1. There is no way to stop Microsoft from forcing this down users throats.


I understand how the difference between updates and upgrades can be confusing, but I want to to totally clear here. The statement above is absolutely not true at all. Whether or not you upgrade to Windows 10 is entirely your decision. Microsoft is ABSOLUTELY NOT forcing Windows 10 down anyone's throats and we are ABSOLUTELY NOT forcefully upgrading ANY computers to Windows 10.

The updates you're referring to are just that....updates. These are the monthly patches and hotfixes that are delivered through Windows Update. Once you upgrade to Windows 10, we will no longer allow users to skip security patches and hotfixes. We want all Windows 10 devices to be as secure and stable as possible, so the updates will be mandatory.

"Updates" and "Upgrades" are 2 entirely different concepts. "Upgrading" to Windows 10 is 100% optional. Your choice.



gregzoll said:


> A lot are gambling that there will be more jumping ship, once they find out that Microsoft takes full control of your computer, by allowing them to state that your computer is no longer your property, if you choose to run Windows 10.


So besides the fact that monthly security updates will be mandatory, are there some other changes to the licensing terms in Windows 10 that you're aware of that are prompting your last comment? What is it that you believe is changing that makes you feel like Microsoft is stating that your computer is no longer your property? I've run into tons of apps, whether they be desktop apps or phone apps, that tell me I have to install an update before I can use the app again, and I've even seen OS X updates on my Macbook that I haven't been able to skip.

Is it fair for me to assume that most of your concerns were due to the confusion around the belief that Windows 10 would be a forced upgrade? Have I cleared that up, or do you still have serious concerns? I'd love to help clear anything up if there's still more confusion.


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## JClishe

rusty baker said:


> W 10 is supposed to be a rented OS with an expiration date too, like Office 365. (It is good for three years with a fourth year option.) No word on the limit for W 10. There again, when W11 (?) comes out, it will be a forced upgrade.


This is not true. Microsoft has made no statements that Windows 10 will ever "expire". There is tons of speculation and flat out dangerous reporting in the media right now. I feel like Microsoft is being vilified based on random speculation and guesses that are occurring in the media that have no basis on fact.



rusty baker said:


> They are not going to force anyone to upgrade from W7, 8.1 or 8.3 to W10, they are just not going to do any updates.


Correct! No one is being forced to upgrade to Windows 10.


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## ZZZZZ

On my old laptop I set up a dual boot with Vista and Zorin Linux. Never really saw the urgent need to use Zorin, but the few times I did, it worked fine. 

I think a sure bet in the stock market would be Red Hat or other large-scale Linux providers. I think medium and large size businesses will be knocking at their doors in unprecedented numbers.

I've been saying this since Windows 3.0: Microsoft Sux! 

(No offense JClishe.)


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## JClishe

No offense taken! I've been selling Microsoft for a long, long time and I've heard it all. 

But I'll also say that Linux on the desktop has come up many times over the years and many organizations have tried it. Germany made a big push recently to migrate to Linux throughout government agencies and that project has largely been a failure and many agencies are moving back to Windows. 

My entire career for the past 20 years has been selling Microsoft technologies to medium and large businesses and one thing I can say for sure is none of them want Linux on the desktop. That is a door no one is knocking on.  On servers, yes. And maybe some very specific desktops used for very specific tasks. But a large scale roll out of Linux across end user workstations? Believe me, IT *does not* want that!


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## ZZZZZ

JClishe said:


> No offense taken! I've been selling Microsoft for a long, long time and I've heard it all.
> 
> But I'll also say that Linux on the desktop has come up many times over the years and many organizations have tried it. Germany made a big push recently to migrate to Linux throughout government agencies and that project has largely been a failure and many agencies are moving back to Windows.
> 
> My entire career for the past 20 years has been selling Microsoft technologies to medium and large businesses and one thing I can say for sure is none of them want Linux on the desktop. That is a door no one is knocking on.  On servers, yes. And maybe some very specific desktops used for very specific tasks. But a large scale roll out of Linux across end user workstations? Believe me, IT *does not* want that!


Well, for over 15 years I worked as a technical writer and software tester, and there are numerous obvious but non-fatal flaws in Windows going back to 3.0 that are still in place in 8.1.

Just about every IT manager I've worked with DREADS it every time MS does an upgrade. And most of them would say if they were starting up a brand new enterprise from scratch, they would go with Linux without hesitation.

My point was that Windows 10 may be the "camel that breaks the straw's back"  for many corporate IT depts.

But I'm long since retired from the IT world (I'm a full-time DIYer now), so I don't have a real interest in bits and bytes anymore. As long as my 7 year old HP XP-SP3 PC boots up every morning, I'm happy!


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## JClishe

Wow, we must be talking to different IT people. When it comes to hardware compatibility, application compatibility, application deployment, device and OS management, end user and help desk staff training, etc...Linux just introduces so many problems and complexities. I've never run across an enterprise that had any desire to move to it broadly. Of course I'm not saying that those organizations don't exist, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything to support Linux being close to being migrated to in unprecedented numbers. And realistically it will never happen. As more and more organizations adopt BYOD they're being forced to support OS X and Chrome OS, and we're seeing increasing support of OS X and Chrome OS in enterprise management tools and 3rd party applications which is making supporting Linux on the desktop to become less and less of a priority for everyone.


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## rusty baker

I am one of those who waits on updates. Microsoft has issued so many bad updates through the years, I wait to read the complaints first. Right now I am sitting on about 20 updates for office 2010, which I do not have. Why do I get them, I have no idea. I removed the trial version when I bought my computer along with everything else I did not need. If you actually work for Microsoft, you know that some of their security updates have screwed up computers.


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## ktkelly

The ONLY thing I don't like with 8.1 is the lack of the ability to resize pictures as I can with my old Lenovo that's running XP.

Otherwise I'm fine with 8.1, and will upgrade to 10 after it's been out for a few months. Maybe in December or so.

I for one, don't mind that updates will just happen. Never had a problem installing updates before, so why should it be a problem now?


As an aside:

Installing a 128GB SSD is the one upgrade that was really a good one, and I intend to install the same in the old Lenovo. 

Everyone should do this. It's unbelievable how much faster everything is from initial start up, to shut down.


----------



## gregzoll

JClishe every Router, modem, Managed Switch, Firewall, NAS, SANS, Blu-Ray player, Streaming Device, Gaming unit, TV, Vehicles, the Navy's LCS fleet, military weapons systems, ground fighting vehicles run one form or another of a Linux Variant.

I have been around this stuff since the Home Brew days. The only reason that Microsoft has lasted this long. Is by gobbling up the competition, or forcing them out of business.

If you are using a non Windows portable device. You are using a variant of Linux.

If you truly believe that Linux is too hard to work with. That is because that Microsoft wants you to only support & market non Linux products. Even though pretty much all of Windows runs on GNU code.

You need to see it from the other side, that those of us that have fat wallets from working on Windows Computers and Servers. Is because the OS and other product lines for Microsoft are broken.

Pretty much anything you can do on Windows. You can do it ten times better with Linux.

Look at the current case history of the Surface line. There has been more problems with failed units out of the box, melted power adapters, hard drives failing after 30 days.

Also look at the issues with the Xbox One. Faling hard Drives, does not play nice with certain ISP's, Blu-ray units also failing.

It is no wonder that thereare currently a Class Action for the Surface RT.

If Microsoft was an automobile. It would be the Pinto/Bobcat.

When the dust settles after 10 is force fed to the masses. Those like myself will continue fixing OS issues and cleaning Malware off of machines, will continue to be paid by the courtesy of Microsoft not protect their OS from user bad habits and lousy driver coding.

In the end. The only thing standing, will be Microsoft's Azure Platform.


----------



## gregzoll

JClishe our household has only one laptop running Windows 8.1.1. That is my wife's. Until her company moves their internal billing system and software systems AS/400 to a software package that will use MySQL, so that they can integrate it into Salesforce. So that they can access the program with iPads, MacBooks, Linux.

This means that they will be moving all data to Red Hat Enterprise Linux.

Those like you who have been sold on the Microsoft hype, just like in the 60's when the masses were sold on Amway's model.

I have used Linux on my computers since 1999. Every step for the past 16 years. Linux has made leaps and is Light Years ahead of Microsoft, with every change that has happened, for staying on top of technology for both older and newer equipment.

There will always be the argument of Windows vs Linux & Mac OS-x. In the end, Windows loses against the other two.


----------



## gregzoll

Yuri purchase Stardock Software's Start8 & Metromix. It will allow the GUI to act and behave like it does with 7.

The only really good thing about 8. Is how it handles memory management. Other than that, I and others continue to fix the continued issues with Networking and Home Group.

Now for the kicker. Windows with all of the updates, Office software. Still uses more hard drive space that Linux.

Right now my Laptop running Xubuntu 15.04 LTS x64. Is using only 20 GB of a 240 GB Crucial M500 SSD.

The best thing about it. Is that unlike Windows, where you can go fix a cup of Coffee, let the dog outside, while waiting for the computer to boot up.

You just have to blink and the system is ready to go.


----------



## gregzoll

ZZZZZ said:


> I think a sure bet in the stock market would be Red Hat or other large-scale Linux providers. I think medium and large size businesses will be knocking at their doors in unprecedented numbers.[\QUOTE]Redhat has been active in handling the databases for the Stock Markets, to handling the databases for Salesforce.
> 
> Any large Data Center is going to be controlled by Red Hat Enterprise in one form or another.


----------



## gregzoll

When we moved from older P4 desktops to newer Lenovo desktops, that had more power than what wa needed for daily work.

One of the management favorites was placed into handling IT issues. The only experience she had, was from her daily job at the workstation.

When a 500 unit upgrade was done. A couple of units were not set up for the shortcuts and applications we used. Along with the User Network share, which was labeled as the "F:" drive, also did not get mapped.

All of this was because those couple of units were never installed on the Domain. So if you logged in. You would get the standard Windows desktop of IE, Trashbin and My Computer. Instead of the desktop that was standard on all workstations, for the shortcuts needed, along with the Quick Toolbar for commenly used items.

I actually got called into my manager's office for laughing so hard, when this inexperienced girl, started berating the poor sole, for her failure in doing her job to begin with. By making it appear as if the individual went in and just started deleting items.

The issue is widespread with all agencies and Units for the State of Illinois. They choose a favorite, who only knows basic 101 computer, and how to use a web browser. But had no clue when it came to the backend for maintaining the network equipment.

Whenever I and another employee would be on break discussing about my home network, along with using Linux at home. Also how my brother and I had set up a cloud storage for our family to use.

It would be like clockwork, that the minute I would walk back in the door after break. My very clueless manager (I am using that lightly). would call me into her office and state that it was reported to her about what someone had overheard during break. That it was stated to her that I was heard discussing trying to do things on my assigned workstation. Along with take authority in telling the IT/LAN coordinators how to do their job. Which actually was false information. Trying to use it as an attempt to find any little thing that they could, to let people go. Just so they could replace us that did Data Entry, being paid with very good paychecks. With minimum wage paid contractors.

Just for entering faced in information from clients.

Everyday was a living hell, depending on cluelessly trained people, attempting to do stuff that they had never been certified in doing. Let alone should be working with.

Anytime the Domain or server went down. They would have to call someone, to tell them how to fix the issue.


----------



## gregzoll

rusty baker said:


> I am one of those who waits on updates. Microsoft has issued so many bad updates through the years, I wait to read the complaints first. Right now I am sitting on about 20 updates for office 2010, which I do not have. Why do I get them, I have no idea. I removed the trial version when I bought my computer along with everything else I did not need. If you actually work for Microsoft, you know that some of their security updates have screwed up computers.


That would because there is still traces of it on the C: drive, along with it being in the recovery partition.

Download Revo Uninstaller and CCleaner from Majorgeeks.com download repository. That should kill off that irritation.


----------



## gregzoll

JClishe just because you have a set of clients that are stuck in their old ways. Does not mean that there are Enterprises and Government agencies that are going that route.

As for Chrome OS. You can only get it, if you purchase the device with it pre-installed. The OS is a Linux based OS, that requires an always connected to WiFi. If you are not connected to the Internet, you are very limited in what you can do.

As for using Mac OS-X in place of Windows. It runs circles around anything you can throw at it. The biggest issue is that Mac Office by Microsoft is crippled in a way that it does not support Entourage, not able to connect to Office 365, along with removing isync, to cripple Office 2016 to be able to use iCal.

That means that once again, Microsoft is forcing OS-X users to either use Boot Camp to run Windows, in an attempt to force them to abandon Mac OS. Or force them to completely abandon the Mac platform and purchase a laptop to run Windows.

That would be like taking a Charger with a Hemi V8 and slapping in a 4 banger and calling it a better option.

No matter what you are being told through weekly sales calls, or overhyped Boilerplated emails.

Microsoft is trying to hang onto the little bit of Enterprise customers, who are their bread and butter. That was the whole reason of going back to the method of charging for an online Office product up in the web. So that they can get away from one time purchase, unlimited use, offline capable software.

Where as with Office 365. The end user and client have to be always connected if they are going to be able to do anything. If the user insists on always being offline. Whatever they do in offline mode for Office 365. You lose it after thirty days and have your account locked out.

Also there is no way to do any kind of triple layer security, if a rogue employee who holds all of the security keys, gots in and Nukes the whole company 365 account on Microsoft's servers.


----------



## TheEplumber

So, as a general consumer who has no desire for Linux. Windows 10 will happen for Windows?


----------



## ZZZZZ

These days, who really needs MS Office, when there are quite a few respectable open source alternatives.


----------



## yuri

I remember the Pinto. A rolling BBQ. Only problem was you were the steak.:laughing:

Now my AMC Gremlin was a cool car.:yes:


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> This means that they will be moving all data to Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
> 
> Those like you who have been sold on the Microsoft hype, just like in the 60's when the masses were sold on Amway's model.


All Linux conversations up to this point have been specifically focused on Linux on the desktop. RHEL is a server product, correct? No one, myself included, is questioning the relevance and popularity of Linux servers.

What Microsoft hype have I been saying? Please point me to some data that shows that anything I've said is not in line with current market trends.



gregzoll said:


> There will always be the argument of Windows vs Linux & Mac OS-x. In the end, Windows loses against the other two.


I'd love to see the data that proves Windows always loses any argument Vs OS X or Linux. Please provide some links.


----------



## ktkelly

gregzoll said:


> unlike Windows, where you can go fix a cup of Coffee, let the dog outside, while waiting for the computer to boot up.
> 
> You just have to blink and the system is ready to go.



Okay, we get it, YOU don't like Microsoft. But this statement is just like your claim that watching a 4K stream from a Firestick makes a 1080P TV image better (all the pros laughed about that one)..

Total BS.

My laptop with 8.1 and a SSD drive boots up in seconds.



Waiting for the flames now....:whistling2:


----------



## supers05

My windows 98 would boot up in 20sec on a HDD....... XP in 30sec. Yes we had competitions in LAN parties. It's usually not the machine, or OS, but the user, and how they've configured things.


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> JClishe every Router, modem, Managed Switch, Firewall, NAS, SANS, Blu-Ray player, Streaming Device, Gaming unit, TV, Vehicles, the Navy's LCS fleet, military weapons systems, ground fighting vehicles run one form or another of a Linux Variant.


The Linux discussion so far in this thread has focused on Linux on the desktop. I don't understand how making points about the OS of random appliances and devices is relevant to discussing an IT organizations desire to broadly deploy Linux to their user base. You're going way off topic here.



gregzoll said:


> If you are using a non Windows portable device. You are using a variant of Linux.


Again...you're going way off topic to make points that aren't relevant to this discussion.



gregzoll said:


> Pretty much anything you can do on Windows. You can do it ten times better with Linux.


Can it sync my iPad 10 times better than Windows? Does it run all my apps 10 times better than Windows? Does Photoshop run 10 times better? Connect to my employers VPN 10 times better? Do my bluetooth headphones work 10 times better on Linux? Does my Garmin Edge cycling computer sync wirelessly to Linux 10 times better?

If Linux is 10 times better than Windows, then why isn't anyone using? It's market share is a blip on the radar compared to Windows and OS X. Clearly it's not 10 times better, otherwise people would want it, and people are speaking with their wallets and clearly saying they don't want it. It doesn't matter how good something is if people don't want it. Yeah, of course there's pockets of techie's that may want it, but the mass market clearly does not want it. If I took away my wife's laptop and replaced it with a Linux laptop I can tell you for 100% certainty that she would find the overall experience of using her apps and hardware peripherals worse, not 10 times better. And that's not me being dogmatic about Microsoft, that's just a simple reality.



gregzoll said:


> Look at the current case history of the Surface line. There has been more problems with failed units out of the box, melted power adapters, hard drives failing after 30 days.
> 
> Also look at the issues with the Xbox One. Faling hard Drives, does not play nice with certain ISP's, Blu-ray units also failing.
> 
> It is no wonder that thereare currently a Class Action for the Surface RT.


I'm not aware of any device by any vendor that has been immune to hardware failure. There was a string of Macbook Airs that was experiencing a high rate of SSD failures and Apple even submitted an advisory about it. There are all sorts of ongoing WiFi issues in both iOS and OS X that Apple still hasn't been able to fix. And Apple and Google both currently have numerous Class Action and antitrust suits going on against them in various parts of the world.

Look, the Linux points in this thread were very specific to an objective look at things that are occurring within the industry today. You have come into this thread with a very argumentative personal vendetta against Microsoft and you're using subjective points that obviously aren't based on reality. "Doing anything 10 times better on Linux", saying Windows always loses any argument compared to Linux and OS X, etc. C'mon, even my non-technical wife can make points that prove both of your statements incorrect. 

I enjoy objective technology discussions about the merits of one product over another. I work for Microsoft but I own an iPhone, iPad, and rMBP, all purchased with money out of my own pocket, so clearly I have found areas where Microsoft products have deficiencies and I've let my wallet do the talking. I have no problem at all discussing these things and in fact I quite enjoy it. But as soon as the conversation starts to get emotional and people introduce subjective personal biases and wild, unrealistic, exaggerated claims, like what you have done here, the conversation goes sideways.


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> The best thing about it. Is that unlike Windows, where you can go fix a cup of Coffee, let the dog outside, while waiting for the computer to boot up.
> 
> You just have to blink and the system is ready to go.


I have a top of the line 2014 15" retina Macbook Pro running Yosemite, and a Lenovo X1 Carbon running Windows 8.1. The Lenovo boots faster than the Macbook. It boots in about a blink.


----------



## supers05

And if i recall correctly, OSX is more based on BSD then Linux. They may have similar ancestory but have distinct development paths. And I do believe MS produced an great product with the XP core, and now the vista core (moving on into 7, 8 and 10) The majority of people found XP extremely productive, and win7 even more so. (took a bit of UI changes and significant fixes from vista to please the masses) although windows 8 may have been less then accepted, we'll see how 10 goes. (and yes I do run Android on a pc, various forms of Linux, osx, and my favorite win 7. Also used win Mobile 3-6.5, Symbian, and a bunch of others that i can't even remember anymore. They had their purpose, and time and were very effective at it.


----------



## rusty baker

ZZZZZ said:


> These days, who really needs MS Office, when there are quite a few respectable open source alternatives.


If you didn't like the old office, don't try 2013. It's awful. My college changed over last year and it is a pain.


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> That means that once again, Microsoft is forcing OS-X users to either use Boot Camp to run Windows, in an attempt to force them to abandon Mac OS. Or force them to completely abandon the Mac platform and purchase a laptop to run Windows.


So let me see if I understand you. You feel like it's a bad thing that Microsoft would prefer its users to be on Windows?

Reverse the tables. Do you feel like Apple does a better job at cross platform support than Microsoft does?

Do you feel like any vendor, in any market, goes out of its way to support and even encourage its users to use a competitors product? If you're going to vilify Microsoft for this, then you need to be equally prepared to vilify Apple, Google, and every other vendor for the same behavior.


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> JClishe just because you have a set of clients that are stuck in their old ways. Does not mean that there are Enterprises and Government agencies that are going that route.


My clients are stuck in their old ways because they have no desire to support Linux on the desktop? Is Linux on the desktop a hot new trend that I'm missing out on? Please provide some data or current market trend analysis on this, I'd love to understand what's going on in the marketplace around Linux on the desktop that apparently I'm uneducated on. Thanks.


----------



## ZZZZZ

rusty baker said:


> If you didn't like the old office, don't try 2013. It's awful. My college changed over last year and it is a pain.


I'm running Office 2003 but only because my former employer actually bought a license for me. 2003 still has more than enough bells and whistles for everything I need to do every day. 

I'd go out on the proverbial limb and say that today, 12 years later, Office 2003 still covers the needs of 95% of the population out there.

And whoever it was at MS who thought Word 2003 could be used as an HTML editor should be take out behind the barn and given 42 lashes.


----------



## rusty baker

I actually like IE. I just don't like the idea of forced updates. Microsoft has a history of sending out flawed updates. Just a few weeks ago a security update was causing W7 computers to stick in a loop of shut down and start up. I read the warning on line. Luckily I had not done that update yet. They must have realized it after a while, because it disappeared. 
And the troubleshooter that automatically deletes icons that are not used for a couple months. I have some that I only need a couple times a year. If Microsoft would just listen to it's customers.
How about that when W8 first came out, there was no system restore? I hear they did fix that. And the list goes on.


----------



## gregzoll

JClishe I do not hate Windows, so I do not know how you concluded that. I just love the fact that it is the one OS that keeps my brother & I in the business of cleaning infections off of computers, because users cannot stop just clicking on everything.

As for your statement that you have to connect your iPad to your computer to sync. You do realize that you no longer have to do that. Especially if you are running Mac OS on your MacBook, not Windows.

As for the whole argument of your hatred about Linux. Every person that I have come across that believes that Windows is the only OS out there, and believe the Microsoft paid articles that Linux is the Devil and you need a degree in computing to do anything with it.

Yes if you are working on the Enterprise side. For the desktop, you do not. What do you think that I have been using to post all of this. Xubuntu 15.04 is what I am using on a Toshiba C850-ST3nx1 Laptop. I do not have to worry about connecting my iPhone to my laptop, unless I want to go in and pull photos, or load photos and ring tones on it, by using my laptop to get into the OS, that you cannot do with Windows.

As for office program, I use LibreOfficer, or Google Doc's, depending on if I am working with someone on something that we have to keep in Google's cloud, or personal.

Personally we all choose what OS we want to run, after we get tired of dealing with all of the headaches that Microsoft's OS's have caused all of these years.


----------



## JClishe

gregzoll said:


> As for the whole argument of your hatred about Linux.


I do not hate Linux, I don't know how you concluded that. You've been making a lot of highly opinionated, subjective statements and claims about Windows and Linux, and a lot of what you said is technically inaccurate. I'm merely pointing out facts to counter your factless claims. That doesn't mean I hate Linux, it just means I like the truth.  

Yes of course I know I don't need a cable to connect an iPhone / iPad to a computer. You made the claim that Linux can do everything 10 times better than Windows and I'm merely pointing out there is in fact a lot of things that Linux can't do at all, let alone better than Windows. Again...this isn't hate, its just facts.

Lets not forget that Microsoft fully supports many Linux distributions on Azure, we've contributed many open source projects to the OSS community in the past 10 years (in fact we've contributed more to the open source community in the past 10 years than Google has), and our CEO and top leadership have publicly supported Linux.



gregzoll said:


> Every person that I have come across that believes that Windows is the only OS out there,


Wow, you've come across people that have never heard of Apple or Macs?! That's so amazing!!!



gregzoll said:


> and believe the Microsoft paid articles that Linux is the Devil and you need a degree in computing to do anything with it.


Hmm, so now I'm confused. If these people think there's no other OS besides Windows, then how do those same people know about Linux?



gregzoll said:


> Personally we all choose what OS we want to run, after we get tired of dealing with all of the headaches that Microsoft's OS's have caused all of these years.


Yup, those people absolutely exist. And so do the people that got tired of dealing with all the headaches that Apple's OS's have caused over the years and chose to switch to Windows. It's great that we have several OS's to choose from and people can chose the one that most suits their needs. Competition is good...it's keeps the industry moving forward. I'm typing this on Macbook. But when I need to focus on being productive and getting work done, I choose a Windows device everytime. OS X just lacks too many little features like side by side window snapping, aero peek, jump lists, etc. that make me more productive and able to move around faster on Windows. But hey, that's just me and my personal preferences. And obviously there are tens of millions of people that also have made the deliberate decision to be on a Windows device instead of OS X because it better suits their personal needs. I'm not referring to the people that are issued Windows devices at work, I'm talking about the people that consciously say "I do not want a Mac". Yes, contrary to what you'd like us to believe, those people do exist and there are in fact millions of them.

With that, I'm out. As I said earlier, I love discussions about the pros and cons of various technologies and I have no problem whatsoever admitting where a Microsoft product has gaps compared to our competition. However, these discussions are only enjoyable when everyone is neutral, unbiased, and wants to stick to objective and realistic points. You have demonstrated to not be one of those people so this conversation is pointless.


----------



## TheEplumber

TheEplumber said:


> I currently have windows 7 on my desk top. For the last couple days I've been getting notifications in my task bar for a free windows 10 upgrade.
> 
> Why would I do that if I'm happy with my current system? Will it become necessary at some point? What makes 10 better?
> Thoughts or opinions please





Fix'n it said:


> i just came here to ask the same exact question. i am wondering if it is some kind of scam. i heard 8 sucks, i tried it a very little and didn't like it. so why, for now, use an upgraded version of sucky


So, back to the beginning--
I dont want linux or mac. I'm happy with what ive got. I'll download 10 and wait for a bit I guess....


----------



## ZZZZZ

TheEplumber said:


> So, back to the beginning--
> I dont want linux or mac. I'm happy with what ive got. I'll download 10 and wait for a bit I guess....


I think the whole point of this thread is that if you are happy with what you have, you may become unhappy with what you get.

A good percentage of people who went from XP to Vista, or 7 to 8 were very unhappy.

And I'll repeat a point I made earlier: a Linux distribution such as Zorin looks, feels and works very similarly to Windows. Unless a person is a PC gearhead who can't resist tinkering under the hood, you may never know the difference.


----------



## yuri

X2. Just because you can get something for free does not mean it will be better/make things better.

In my world I only buy things if I have a specific need for them. I don't need extra Apps and am perfectly comfortable with the programs I have now. The hidden secret is that a lot of Apps etc are all designed to lead you to buy something. Nothing wrong with that but it is a cultural shift. Young people are brought up to believe they can have everything they want because of credit cards and Apps and online buying make that sooo easy. MS, Google, Amazon et all are all in bed together to promote quick easy impulse buying and the easier the better. Nothing wrong with that as culture and science is unstoppable. I don't need new Apps as I pay cash and only buy what I need and my programs work fine.

Not likely there won't be some major incompatibilities with 7 and the drivers and firmware and they have warned people of that. I suspect it will be a pretty seamless switch from 8 as that is the dog they are replacing and the underlying code is very close. 7 is old school and too many generations behind. If it ain't broke don't go fixing it.:yes:


----------



## TheEplumber

yuri said:


> X2. Just because you can get something for free does not mean it will be better/make things better.


Not often, but it can.... isn't that the the reason for patches and updates?


yuri said:


> In my world I only buy things if I have a specific need for them. I don't need extra Apps and am perfectly comfortable with the programs I have now. The hidden secret is that a lot of Apps etc are all designed to lead you to buy something. Nothing wrong with that but it is a cultural shift. Young people are brought up to believe they can have everything they want because of credit cards and Apps and online buying make that sooo easy. MS, Google, Amazon et all are all in bed together to promote quick easy impulse buying and the easier the better. Nothing wrong with that as culture and science is unstoppable. I don't need new Apps as I pay cash and only buy what I need and my programs work fine.
> 
> Not likely there won't be some major incompatibilities with 7 and the drivers and firmware and they have warned people of that. I suspect it will be a pretty seamless switch from 8 as that is the dog they are replacing and the underlying code is very close. 7 is old school and too many generations behind. If it ain't broke don't go fixing it.:yes:


Most people I know run 7 and steer clear of 8, except my mom. I bought her a PC for Christmas with MS8 to replace her old vista machine and she loves it.....:laughing:

So, you don't think the drivers will have updates that work with 10 right away? 
I can see some not, but surely the big players are on board with MS


----------



## yuri

Patches are to fix bugs. Updates are to add new features and usually you have to buy the updates. This time it is free because everyone seems to hate 8 and they have a huge PR problem.

The problem is MS does not freely or easily or quickly give away their code etc from my experience. If they had it their way Norton etc would not exist and you would be using/buying MS anti-virus. I setup a new 8.1 Toshiba Laptop for the neighbor and she has free Zone Alarm with her provider. Took 6 months B4 they could give it to her because Zone Alarm did not have the code or it was incompatibe. When we got it it sukks and half of it did not work. I wanted to throw it out and get McAfee but she wanted it as it is included with her pkg. Point is MS and these big companies have always been territorial and I doubt they want to share their info because they want to be nice guys. Rather grudgingly IMO.

As far as drivers it is the same biz. You may need new ones for your peripherals. Eventually Canon etc they get them but who needs the hassle if what you have is nicely setup and works.

Only advantage I see is there are more Apps available and if you want them then go 4 it and change from 7. Read the fine print about which versions of 7 may not be compatible and why.

I just did a new 8.1 for Dad and will wait 6 months before upgrading in case there are bugs.

In defence of MS I do like their products and I go all the way back to DOS 5 in the early 90's. We had all kinds of horrible software conflicts up until about 15 yrs ago when it all got plug and play. No more Blue screen of death and C: prompt, typing backslash and forward slash while trying to talk to tech support etc. I like the speed 8 boots up with and when my computers get too slow from buss speed etc I look forward to using 10 when I buy new ones.


----------



## gregzoll

Yuri the problem with the patches that Microsoft has been pushing out lately. Is that they are breaking the OS, because of hardware incompatibility or third party software incompatibility, that MS Software Engineers think does not to be ran on their OS design.

Everyone that I know of that has been using Windows since day one. They installed either Classic Shell or Start8 with Metro Mix, to get away from that Tablet interface, and work with just the Desktop interface.

Majority of the problems that are popping up, are people trying to do Desktop tasks in the Metro Interface. Along with blaming the OS for Network adapter issues, when they are trying to run Win8 on elder hardware.


----------



## yuri

I don't own a tablet just a desktop PC and laptop. There are endless combos of devices and ways to use them and users. My attitude is KISS. keep it simple stu*pid. If 7 works great and you don't want to take chances with driver problems etc then stay 7. I would upgrade 8 but wait 6 months to see if there are any bugs.

Never owned a Mac. In the beginning it was more for artists with more graphics software available. They never go on sale and are more expensive. I play games like Civ 5 and it is always easier to get them for Windows. Mac seems like the poorer sister for that market.


----------



## gregzoll

Yuri the only tablets we have in our household are two Andriods and a iPad.

As for games. A lot of them have been ported to run on Mac OS and Linux. Even with the Fire TV box I have, I can play the same games that are on the Android tablets on my Streaming TV box, but use an actual game controller.

My hardest part about working on my son's MacBook. Is that I am way too familiar with the Xfce GUI on Xubuntu, and when I go on his laptop. It takes a bit to figure out what I am looking for. Which is at most, maybe two minutes.


----------



## TheEplumber

yuri said:


> I don't own a tablet just a desktop PC and laptop. There are endless combos of devices and ways to use them and users. My attitude is KISS. keep it simple stu*pid. If 7 works great and you don't want to take chances with driver problems etc then stay 7. I would upgrade 8 but wait 6 months to see if there are any bugs.
> 
> Never owned a Mac. In the beginning it was more for artists with more graphics software available. They never go on sale and are more expensive. I play games like Civ 5 and it is always easier to get them for Windows. Mac seems like the poorer sister for that market.


I like simple too. I've added very little to my pc. Outside of web surfing, occasional spreadsheet or word processing it sits idle- which I use OpenOffice
I used to game a lot (first person shooters), but got too old and slow so the little punks beat me pretty good now:jester:
So when I'm tired of sitting at the monitor I move to the couch with my tablet. Bored at lunch- I use my android phone.... 

In fact, I was just given an Apple work phone and I don't like it. I remember why I got rid of my last one.
The first computer I had was a Mac classic. We ran with apple for a bit but I moved on due to lack software, etc. My wife uses Mac at work as well as home now. It does all she would ever want. Same with my Son. Does all his video work on it. He's also messing with some game engine in his spare time- learning to build game maps and model characters.
As for windows 10- I'm not going there just yet. Happy with what I got now.....


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## yuri

Yeah, Mac initially was like a geeky cult. Windows was more meat and potatoes working man stuff. All the automation systems I used to work with were DOS or Win based.

As far as games I like to be Napoleon and try to rule the world in Civ 5. The shooter games are a joke for old farts like me who never grew up with them. The young uns have genetically altered minds and can think thru them or they ask their friends. My James Bond got flattened or whacked so many times I let him go to the old Spy school in the sky and I never bought any more. Pretty bad when you have to go on the net to find out where to jump or play the darn thing.:laughing:


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## rusty baker

My regular laptop has W7 (16 g and one terra) and I would not upgrade it. I have a small one that I carry when we are gone for the day. It has W8.1. I added start8, but will probably upgrade it to 10. Anything would have to be better than W 8.


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## gregzoll

EPlumber, My wife, son & I use our iPhones for mainly streaming music via Blue-Tooth with the Belkin Blue-Tooth adapter. Also for hands free calling. Other than that & calls, it is mostly check Facebook, text message, use Chrome to look stuff up and that is it.

My Android tablet I use when I have to pull up the NFS shares on our NAS. Other than that, if I am at the hospital or on a trip. I read Kindle books on it.

I will say that I am very impressed with the Amazon Fire TV box. I do not even watch Netflix or Amazon Prime on our Blu-Ray player anymore. Just watch through it and use our Sound Bar for sound.


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## gregzoll

rusty baker said:


> My regular laptop has W7 (16 g and one terra) and I would not upgrade it. I have a small one that I carry when we are gone for the day. It has W8.1. I added start8, but will probably upgrade it to 10. Anything would have to be better than W 8.


I know that Stardock has introduced Start10. As long as your subscription is good for Start8 & Metromix, you are good to go on the upgrade to the newer versions.

I did roll Windows 7 on my Toshiba. The problem is that you end up with very little power control, because Microsoft does not have that driver in their system. That is why I have stuck with Xubuntu.


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## gregzoll

ZZZZZ being that Zorin is a spin off of Ubuntu, you also are able to utilize a lot of stuff that is for Ubuntu, but at times, you have to do some research in how to load the items that are normally loaded with Ubuntu.

Too many people think that there is a large learning curve in going from Windows to a Linux distro. It is not as bad as when people went from Dos/Win 3.x to Windows 9x and then to the straight Gui platforms that did not depend on Dos to run the front end.


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## diyorpay

Excellent debates going on here and it seems to be preference that will determine if W10 is a success.

From my experience, an older computer runs far better with a clean install of an operating system. That burdens the user with trying to reinstall favorite 'apps' and programs onto the new system which isn't always possible. Sometimes one will even have to negotiate with licensing company for a 'second' license when you're really doing a new install. 

My guess is that W10 may be a one way update on MS's part and it will not provide the reversal folder to revert back to the previous system. 

I love Apple and its mobile products and have many. I am not as familiar with its Mac desktops and notebooks. What I do know is that when an op system gets too 'gunked up', Apple will abandon it and restart a clean new one leaving many customers with legacy junk hardware and few updates. The amazing part is that Apple customers easily accept this and are extremely loyal. It's a mixed bag for MS.

MS never did this exactly and tried to make everyone happy by making older software as compatible as possible. It only has major upgrades when it wants to add to the bottom line and keep stockholders happy. It is sad that XP was the most stable when it was dropped. But having folks not update with recommended patches was bad PR and the 'gunk' kept building to become unwieldy.

I've heard that W10 will be the 'last' op system by MS because it will be updated from here on out, probably to be called just 'Windows'. Wishful thinking that only time will tell. How to avoid the gunk and uncooperative customers? Not to mention counterfeiters? To be sure, W7 and W8 will be phased out as planned over time. By having mandatory updates, MS hopes that its users' W10 systems will look pretty much the same. By not charging for the op system, MS needs other ways to get customers to buy MS product. It can't continue the risk of having a super new op system, Linux based or otherwise, spring up and be far superior to all previous MS product. So the new W10 will be free to W7 and W8 users. Too difficult to update XP and older? Probably. Hmm...

After listening to reviews of W10 after it goes live, best solution for me will be to make an image of my W8 system. (I turn off the UEFI security and use Aomei free standard backupper.) Then maybe install the new W10 over my W8 (because that's all MS is offering) and try it. If I feel it's not for me, I reload my W8 image.

A trick I learned that I believe to be true: Newer versions of MS Update are better that Windows Update. If your manual Windows Update just says it is updating your Windows products, you may not be updating your Office products and other MS products at all. MS has made it difficult to find MS Update these days. Doesn't make sense. 

Solution: Via a manual Windows Update, select, download and install a current version of Silverlight. [After the install, use either MS Program delete or a good deletion program like Revo Unistall Free if you want to get rid of Silverlight which you probably don't need. Or leave it; it's not going to harm your computer.] Then when you do a manual 'Windows Update' you will really be doing a 'Microsoft Update' and will likely be offered the opportunity to download W10 when it becomes available. May be obvious on this screen or as a new icon on your desktop. You may get a bunch of updates that you missed too.

Tip 2: If you're not updating your Firefox, Chrome, Java, Flash, iTunes etc, you may be asking for trouble. A really easy way to update many non MS products is by using Ninite. On their site select the products you have or want to have and it will consolidate into one executable file to place on your desktop. Run it manually from time to time (MS Update times?).


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## diyorpay

see also:

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/03/mi...tures-windows-10-home-and-pro-users-dont-get/

Last paragraph:

"More problematic (than that) is how updates are handled in Home versions. If early predictions are correct, control over updates and when they get installed is removed from Windows 10 Home. Considering that the past has shown that updates may sometimes break systems or features, it could be a recipe for disaster."


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## diyorpay

2 more on topic (hopefully accurate):

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/02/whats-going-to-happen-to-windows-7-and-8-when-windows-10-comes-out/

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/02/computerbase-you-have-30-days-to-downgrade-windows-10/


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## diyorpay

Latest from Microsoft:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583

*Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1*


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## ZZZZZ

FWIW.

*Windows 10 spies on emails, images, credit cards, more*

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/windows-10-spies-on-emails-images-credit-cards-more/#lhIGMd7WFq7xSXL4.99


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## rusty baker

My wife installed W10 on her laptop and hated it. She couldn't use Netflix on it. And the NWS radar won't work on it and we live in tornado alley. She went back to 8.1. You have 30 days to go back to the previous OS. What I saw of it, no thanks.


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## TheBobmanNH

I installed it over hte weekend. Happiest I've been with a Microsoft product in a long time, possibly ever. Have no idea how someone could prefer 8.x over it. It has all of the "good" features of 8 without any of the nonsense, and a real-ish start menu.


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## NickTheGreat

TheBobmanNH said:


> I installed it over hte weekend. Happiest I've been with a Microsoft product in a long time, possibly ever. Have no idea how someone could prefer 8.x over it. It has all of the "good" features of 8 without any of the nonsense, and a real-ish start menu.


How do you like it compared to 7? I still use 7 at work, and have 8.1 at home. I've gotten used to it, but am probably gonna go 10


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## TheBobmanNH

NickTheGreat said:


> How do you like it compared to 7? I still use 7 at work, and have 8.1 at home. I've gotten used to it, but am probably gonna go 10


I only played iwth it for a bit, so I'm not sure how I liked it compared to 7 yet. I know how to do EVERYTHING on 7, while I was still getting to know 10, so there may be things I like less, but in general it seemed well thought out. While playing wiht Windows 8 I would constantly think ot myself "why the eff did that happen? How in the world am I supposed to do THAT? Why is this app opening in the stupid Windows 8 full-screen mode but this one not?! " I didnt' have any of those with 10, and thought all of the things they integrated into the OS worked intuitively. And on my budget (new, but budget) laptop, it was WAY faster than 8.1.

So my opinion is only an initial impression, but compared to my (pretty recent) initial impression of 8.x, it's leaps and bounds. Compared to 7, which I use every day at work... I dunno. Work usage is so much different than personal usage for me that I can easily see 10 being WAY better for personal, but a pain for work, but I can't qualify or quantify that yet.


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## rusty baker

As long as you don't mind paying for the "extras".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/08/05/windows-10-charging/


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## craig11152

I switched from 7 home edition late Friday night on my desk top. So far no glitches.
Scottrade Elite runs
Think or Swim stock charts run 
Netflix runs
Amazon prime runs 
Chrome works
Firefox works 

The one feature I really like is it recognizes my hard-wire as my default setting for Internet instead of WiFi. I tried 2-3 fixes for Windows 7 to get it to use my hard-wire as default but none worked. It always defaulted to WiFi at startup and I had to manually switch. A small issue I got used to but I like that 10 does it on its own. I think the ultimate solution for 7 was "in the tall grass where the lions and tigers hide" as one pal once put it....In places where the screen is all black and white


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## NickTheGreat

TheBobmanNH said:


> I only played iwth it for a bit, so I'm not sure how I liked it compared to 7 yet. I know how to do EVERYTHING on 7, while I was still getting to know 10, so there may be things I like less, but in general it seemed well thought out. While playing wiht Windows 8 I would constantly think ot myself "why the eff did that happen? How in the world am I supposed to do THAT? Why is this app opening in the stupid Windows 8 full-screen mode but this one not?! " I didnt' have any of those with 10, and thought all of the things they integrated into the OS worked intuitively. And on my budget (new, but budget) laptop, it was WAY faster than 8.1.
> 
> So my opinion is only an initial impression, but compared to my (pretty recent) initial impression of 8.x, it's leaps and bounds. Compared to 7, which I use every day at work... I dunno. Work usage is so much different than personal usage for me that I can easily see 10 being WAY better for personal, but a pain for work, but I can't qualify or quantify that yet.


Appreciate it. I will probably upgrade mine, as I'm curious enough for personal stuff. It won't happen at all, or ever, at work :laughing:


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## NickTheGreat

rusty baker said:


> As long as you don't mind paying for the "extras".
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/08/05/windows-10-charging/


Or . . . you're not paying for things you don't need. My last 2 laptops haven't had optical drives, why buy the DVD playing software? Does you Ford Focus have a trailer brake controller?

The forced updates than people are complaining about are the reasons I may not do W10. Not a fan of that.


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## ZZZZZ

I have never once played any of the Windows games, going back to Windows 3.0, but aren't there freeware versions of solitaire and minesweep or whatever else MS is talking about charging you extra for? 

Notepad is one of the lame-est programs I have ever used. There are dozens if not hundreds of freeware text editors out there that have much more functionality and do a much better job than Notepad.

PC users need an O/S, but we sure don't need MS for any other programs or apps.


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## Bob Sanders

ZZZZZ said:


> FWIW.
> 
> *Windows 10 spies on emails, images, credit cards, more*
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/windows-10-spies-on-emails-images-credit-cards-more/#lhIGMd7WFq7xSXL4.99


Everything spies on you today. Even the little "free" apps you download to your phone. Have you looked at some of the permissions you have to accept in order to install them? Access to your email, contacts, pictures....

Your browser, which ever one you use has been spying on you for years with tracking cookies and other such wonderful things. The spying has simply become more detailed these days

You either accept it and live with it, or you don't use it.

I've gone as far as dual boot 7 and 8.... and I don't like some of the things 8 is doing. Have you ever noticed 8 boots a little faster? 8 never really shuts down when you hit the off button. It goes into a hibernation state instead. It causes problems when booting back to 7. Don't know how 10 shuts down but 8 is enough to make me sick to my stomach.

8 was an experiment for Microsoft though. 
10 is clearly a result of that 8 experiment in microsoft shifting more to the goolge approach.... less emphasis on making profit on the software itself and more on what the software can do for them (collect stats and info). Dunno if there is enough room on the block for 2 giant google approaches though. Time will tell I guess.

It all leaves users in quite the dark hole though in trying to avoid handing out too much info. Some suggest Linux, but then linux after all this time is STILL below the standard for drivers and such. There's Apple, but then Apple's agenda is completely different altogether. They don't necessarily want your info, but they do want as much of your money as they can possibly take.... They're a hardware company and for that reason they out date your hardware as fast as they can in an effort to get you to buy more.

I don't know what the answer is!?!


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## craig11152

My answer is to not worry about the gathering of information. All they want to do is tailor the ad's I see on the edge of my screen. Fine by me. Several days ago I was researching lawn mowers. Suddenly a lot of lawn mower ads started showing up on the edges of my screen. I don't see that as alarming I see it as convenient. 
Now if those tailored ads disappear 10 minutes after I buy a lawn mower then I might start scratching my head.


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## ZZZZZ

craig11152 said:


> My answer is to not worry about the gathering of information. All they want to do is tailor the ad's I see on the edge of my screen. Fine by me. Several days ago I was researching lawn mowers. Suddenly a lot of lawn mower ads started showing up on the edges of my screen. I don't see that as alarming I see it as convenient.
> Now if those tailored ads disappear 10 minutes after I buy a lawn mower then I might start scratching my head.


MS is doing much more than personalizing the ads. They are selling your personal information to 3rd parties. MS is profiting from the tracking. That's how they can give away 10 for "free."

Absolutely, 10 minutes after you buy that lawnmower, those ads will stop. They are scanning your emails. They read the order confirmation and see that you just bought that Mason 1500 turbo mower. Now you will get ads for grass seeds, fertilizer, etc,

But Google is far more egregious. MS is jealous.


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## craig11152

ZZZZZ said:


> MS is doing much more than personalizing the ads. They are selling your personal information to 3rd parties. MS is profiting from the tracking.
> 
> Absolutely, 10 minutes after you buy that lawnmower, those ads will stop. They are scanning your emails. They read the order confirmation and see that you just bought that Mason 1500 turbo mower. Now you will get ads for grass seeds, fertilizer, etc,
> 
> But Google is far more egregious. MS is jealous.


I get they are making money and it is third parties doing the ads. I don't have a problem with capitalism. But the rest of your paranoia is just that. I bought the lawn mower several days ago and the ads are starting to slow down, but they haven't disappeared. They are slowing down, not because they know I bought the mower but because I stopped researching mowers. The longer I go without researching mowers the greater the chance I am no longer interested. If I start seeing fertilizer ads it won't be because they know I bought a mower it will be because there is a statistical chance I may have.


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## ZZZZZ

craig11152 said:


> I get they are making money and it is third parties doing the ads. I don't have a problem with capitalism. But the rest of your paranoia is just that. I bought the lawn mower several days ago and the ads are starting to slow down, but they haven't disappeared. They are slowing down, not because they know I bought the mower but because I stopped researching mowers. The longer I go without researching mowers the greater the chance I am no longer interested. If I start seeing fertilizer ads it won't be because they know I bought a mower it will be because there is a statistical chance I may have.


This isn't about capitalism, I'm all in favor of no-holds-barred-cutthroat capitalism.

It's not paranoia, it's how the system is designed to work. Did you read the link I posted above?

But I don't really care, I'm running XP-SP3 and I won't give that up until the processor dies. My next PC will be Linux.

Windows 10 has just been born. MS is still working on optimizing and maximizing the revenue-generating process. 10 WILL read your emails just as Google currently reads and archives all G-mails.


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## craig11152

you can go in to settings/privacy and turn off any spying you want. They are turned on by default but they all have an off setting.


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## AndyWRS

craig11152 said:


> you can go in to settings/privacy and turn off any spying you want. They are turned on by default but they all have an off setting.


+1

I upgraded both my PCs and turned off all the programs and features I didn't like. 

My one complaint is Egde and Dashlane are not compatible, I still have to use IE to log into sites. Its a minor complaint, glad to have upgraded to 10 from 7 I have no regrets.

I did however dump my old 2003 Office in favor of Libre Office...I only use word and couldn't see spending $ on two copies of office for my PCs.


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## craig11152

AndyWRS said:


> I did however dump my old 2003 Office in favor of Libre Office...I only use word and couldn't see spending $ on two copies of office for my PCs.


Ya I use Libre too mostly for personal spread sheets. For people who need the full office compliment the current new thing is the Office 365 where you essentially pay rent at 9.99 a month for an always current always up to date version for up to 5 computers. As long as you pay your rent it will always update the latest version on you (up to 5) machines.


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## Admin

I started using Windows 10 the day it was released. Usually I wait, but I needed to make sure all of our sites did well in the new OS. I literally don't have a single complaint.

Download and installation went smooth and I definitely prefer over 8.1. As with anything I download, I reviewed and adjusted my preferences and privacy.


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## Brainbucket

I program or reprogram vehilce computers be it PCM (powertrain control module) or BCM (body control module) and others like today, I reprogramed a FICM, ( ford diesil - Fuel Injection Control Module) and on the website of the program I use says in big red letters, DO NOT INSTALL WINDOWS 10!!!!!. Compatibly issues they said. If you have windows 10 they said, it won't work. You will kill vehicle computers and will have to replace them. Some computers cost over a grand. So I use 7.


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## NickTheGreat

Brainbucket said:


> I program or reprogram vehilce computers be it PCM (powertrain control module) or BCM (body control module) and others like today, I reprogramed a FICM, ( ford diesil - Fuel Injection Control Module) and on the website of the program I use says in big red letters, DO NOT INSTALL WINDOWS 10!!!!!. Compatibly issues they said. If you have windows 10 they said, it won't work. You will kill vehicle computers and will have to replace them. Some computers cost over a grand. So I use 7.


Is that a Microsoft issue or an issue of the software package you use? :whistling2:


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## craig11152

Brainbucket said:


> and on the website of the program I use says in big red letters, DO NOT INSTALL WINDOWS 10!!!!!. Compatibly issues they said. If you have windows 10 they said, it won't work. You will kill vehicle computers and will have to replace them. Some computers cost over a grand. So I use 7.


I don't know who's job it is to fix compatibility issues but I assume they are working on it because eventually Windows 7 and 10 will go the way of Windows 1,2,3,3.1,3.11........ :yes: :laughing:


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## rusty baker

craig11152 said:


> I don't know who's job it is to fix compatibility issues but I assume they are working on it because eventually Windows 7 and 10 will go the way of Windows 1,2,3,3.1,3.11........ :yes: :laughing:


And when w10 goes away, you will be forced to upgrade. You do not own it.


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## Brainbucket

NickTheGreat said:


> Is that a Microsoft issue or an issue of the software package you use? :whistling2:


I use the latest programs from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and others. I have to use the program of which car I am programing. Can't use a Honda for a Nissan.:wink: They also use older java as the newer ones corrupt the data. It's always been like this. After a while, the car companies finnaly upgrade to the 'proven' upgrades. But they are slow.:furious:


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