# Huge problem with Insulation in Cape style



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm having a hard time picturing what you trying to expain.
How about a picture.
Is this living space or just an attic?
What insulation type, and how thick is it behind the knee walls. 
What
What's on the back side of the knee walls?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Ah yes, the classic case of the spray foam cure all.

It is tough to tell what the recommendation would be in this case without a better description of the layout, what was done, and/or some pictures.

If you brought a kneewall into the envelope but eliminated the soffit air to the upper roof, that is a huge mistake. Is that what was done?


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

Yes that is exactly what was done......


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*This is a drawing of he side view of house*

Here is the best drawing I can do of the side view of the house


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## Big N8 (Oct 28, 2009)

you need more soffit vents in the attic.

he should have sprayed the knee wall and th floor not the underside of the roof and the soffit.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*more vents*

so you think it is feasable to put larger or continuos soffit vents in the back of the house and maybe a larger ridge vent to allow more cold air in and hot air to escape.

Did you see my drawing?

Do you think more vents in the back of the house will create enough air flow to keep the front attic ceiling cold?

Since I can not undo what was done, would you consider removing all of the insulation and spray foaming the entire roof deck? (that is one remedy someone has suggested)


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

1. How thick is the SPF?

2. Asphalt shingles? Light or dark color?

3. Is it air sealed under the knee wall?

4. Is there HVAC in attic?

5. Where are you located?

Gary


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*answers to questions from gary*

The SPF fills in the joists.

Asphalt dark color

Air sealed under knee wall? Most likely not

No HVAC in attic

I am in Massachusetts


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

mymoneypit said:


> The SPF fills in the joists.
> 
> Asphalt dark color
> 
> ...


Not much of this information really makes a difference in this application.

Your  spray foam contractor monkeyed up your roof ventilation and design.

Big N8 is dead on.

Call that joker back and tell him he is on the hook for the roof and leaks. 

The spray foam needs to be removed from the soffits and the underside of the roof where it meets the kneewall.

The kneewall should have been foamed as Big N8 says and the joists underneath the kneewall should have been blocker'ed and sealed.

Adding more vents is fine if you want to add them midway up the roof where the roof meets the kneewall with something like a shingle over vent (http://www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/intake-theedge.shtml).

I would tell the contractor he is on the hook and make him fix it.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*Ugh*

The roof hasnt leaked yet, I jsut know it is going to. we had one small snow storm and I could see the potential for the probelm at midway up the roof. Fortunatly the temperatures stayed warm and the snow melted, but I could see how the snow formed little damns already.... I took many pictures.

There is going to be no way to remove the foam unless I take the roof off, given the construction of the house and built ins in the kneww all etc.

The contractor is insisting he did nothing wrong,t here was no way to put in baffles to get the ait from the soffit.

But now he wants to put on a larger ridge vent, and more soffit vents on the back roof to get more air flow. Or remove emerything and do icynene. I dont want him back in my house to be honest with you....

Is that vent you mentionted something that can go under the shingles? Was your thought that I could put it above the foam in the roof line to get the air on that part of the roof and leave the foam?

I have my original roofer coming today so hopefully...


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

mymoneypit said:


> The roof hasnt leaked yet, I jsut know it is going to. we had one small snow storm and I could see the potential for the probelm at midway up the roof. Fortunatly the temperatures stayed warm and the snow melted, but I could see how the snow formed little damns already.... I took many pictures.
> 
> There is going to be no way to remove the foam unless I take the roof off, given the construction of the house and built ins in the kneww all etc.
> 
> ...


See above....


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*Inspector?*

By building inspector, do you mean the town building inspector, or someone who inspects home when youa re sellign them etc?

If I could get that money back, it would at least help reduce the cost of what it is going to take to fix it!


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

That or a roofer that understands ventilation.

The spray foam contractor basically UN-engineered what was a working system.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Without the questions asked, I couldn’t establish if your SPF could still cause you diffusion problems adding mold to the sheathing for your location by just leaving it in place. According to science, you are fine because of the thickness; see the chart for your Zone 5A- same as Chicago--- if only 2” thick and high indoor humidity- you would be at risk: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-1001-moisture-safe-unvented-wood-roof-systems

1. Do you know the brand name of the ridge vent, or does your roofer know the NFVA of it? This would tell you if a larger vent is required….

2. Describe the existing soffit venting.

3. He SPF the entire ½ roof (including the slope ceiling) and where is the cellulose with the mold located? In that small knee wall attic? He was correct in SPF of that whole side, so long as the attic air cannot reach the small attic space. Did he block/spray *the top edge* of the SPF sloped ceiling, air-tight? *Is the rest of the attic ventilated enough*: http://www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/intakeSoffit-specs.shtml

4. Does the cellulose have attic air above it (vented) everywhere it is installed?

“I am watching the snow melt from the top of my roof line right up to where the end of the foam insualtion ends. Obviously this is going to create a new ice damn at that point which is well above the water and ice barrier. The contractor said he did nothing wrong, The house has heat leakage in th attic that needs to be addressed.”-------

The ice dams/snow melt are from *not air sealing the attic floor *before installing the existing insulation. http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-135-ice-dams

For other readers: http://www.wag-aic.org/1999/WAG_99_baker.pdf

“The contractor said he did nothing wrong, The house has heat leakage in th attic that needs to be addressed.”-------
*Correct*. He did SPF the roof deck to create a “conditioned attic”; Fig.2, see chart: http://www.buildingscience.com/docu.../irc-faq-conditioned-attics?searchterm=attic+

He was right-on with the warning he gave, did you do anything with the air sealing?

Your SPF installation is correct, leave it alone. You need to air-seal under the cellulose to stop the air leaks by chases/elect./plumbing holes vs. diffusion: pp.17 in article: http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...por-retarders/?topic=/doctypes/researchreport
Ideally, you would have discussed air sealing and had him do that as well as under the knee walls with SPF when present; http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-P...ency/how-to-seal-attic-air-leaks/Step-By-Step


I can’t stress the importance of air-sealing enough: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/forget-vapor-diffusion-stop-air-leaks

Have your roofer fix the roof leaks and do a quality inspection of the whole roof, (also check your NFVA), as you learned- any leak on the cellulose from above without enough ventilation will mold.

Gary


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

If I read right, you've had to demo out the ceiling and attic insulation to remedy mold. Then it sounds like your fix is to continue with the SPF and make the roof line your insulation barrier. Then, when you replace the roof down the road you can place the ventilation space there by way of 2X4 furring strips and an additional layer of plywood. "Hot Roofs" are more common than one thinks and in most manufacturer's cases do not conflict with warranties.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Hot/Insulated roof design is the way to go at this point if you can afford the expense of the ceiling/roof removal and spray foam.

My only point in this is that your spray foam contractor completely changed the ventilation dynamics of the roof (as I read from your posts) without knowing what he is doing.

While it is frustrating for you, I assure you it is not uncommon.

Are you sure that picture is accurate in its dimensions and representations? Are you sure you don't have a sloped section of roofing that is insulated with fiberglass batts?


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

THe roofing contractor said at this point, it is near impossible to get the spray foam out, and he agrees with a NEW spray foam guy that he works with on remodeling jobs that the only way to fix what has been done is to remove the cellulose on the attic floor, and spray foam the entire roof and make a hot roof. He does not feel that any amount of ventilation coming from the back of the roof will make up for the front top half of the roof not having ventilation. 

I have to have the cellulose insulation removed to remedy the mold anyway. The mold was most likely a result of the initial disaster/mold remediation company missing wet cellulose insulation from the roof leak last year. So instead of putting more cellulose in and adding ventilation that may not work, it is probably best to do a hot roof. This is so frustrating, and all the while I have to pray we get NO snow so I dont leak!!!

Everyone thinks that what the original spray foam guy did was completely wrong. Now how do I get the HIM to pony up that he was wrong and totally screwed me and get compensated!


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

mymoneypit said:


> Everyone thinks that what the original spray foam guy did was completely wrong. Now how do I get the HIM to pony up that he was wrong and totally screwed me and get compensated!


You wont be able to. Simply because the best fix at this point is to leave in place what he did. And if you're going to leave it place, how can it be wrong?

Obviously we know the answer to the last question, just playing devils advocate to give you an idea of what you'll be up against.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

AGWhitehouse said:


> You wont be able to. Simply because the best fix at this point is to leave in place what he did. And if you're going to leave it place, how can it be wrong?
> 
> Obviously we know the answer to the last question, just playing devils advocate to give you an idea of what you'll be up against.


+1

Sucks but 100% correct.

Are you sure about the layout on your drawing? Is there any sloped section of the roofing on the inside surface? 

If so, you will need to either drop that drywall or remove that section of the roof to spray foam.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

The new spray foam guy did not mention anything about needing to do that. SHould I be concerned? He siad he would spray it right against the roof sheeting. Of course by drawing is not to scale, but that is what I see, there is no pink fiberglass anywhere in the space anymore. It was in the kneww wall and roof area, but that was removed when roof leaked last year and replaced with the foam.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Take a picture of the inside of the space and the kneewall and post them up.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*pictures*

This is one of the interior rooms, you can see the built in's, the dormer and the entry to the crawl space


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*This is the interior of the crawl space.*

you can see the insualtion up the exterior wall, in the soffit


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*picture looking up*

showing how he blocked the the narrow opening with foam that would have allowed air in the attic area


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*picture*

showing how he blocked the the narrow opening with foam that would have allowed air in the attic from the soffit that is also blocked


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*picture*

here is that picture loking up


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Is that 2x6 construction?

How are they planning on insulating that sloped section of the ceiling? You are going to have to drop that drywall and spray foam the underside of the roof from inside. 

This was my point earlier that just air sealing and insulating the attic would never have addressed this are of the envelope/insulation layer and you would still have snow melting in that section (even as a result of radiant heat loss at those narrow insulation and low R-value sections) where you would have snow on other sections of the roof.

How much foam did he put down again and how much of it? 

Those rafters are still big short circuits in the insulation system.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*spray foam*

I have no idea about the 2x 6 construction. It sounds like what it is, maybe 2x8 or something

Right now the plan on the table is to spray foam the entire underside of the attic roof remove all the venitlation and make it a hot roof. They will open up the attic slightly to gain more access to the small attic space above and I assume use boards to walk around on the rafters above.

I beleive the new foam guy is going to address the foam not being over the rafters.

I hate this idea, but feel I am stuck with it, as the foam in there now would be impossible to remove. With that being said, I also know that if I have problems down the road with the roof it will be even harder to fix now that everything will be spray foamed.


The snow was melting above where the spray insulation stopped. Based on my prblems with the roof leak before this is how I knew I would have some problems in futre when the melted snow hit the insulated part of the roof causeing it to freeze. so I wanted to address it now in conjuntion with the mold removal.

I understand that I would have heat loss thrw the roof, but in research of the right way to thave done this with the ventilation in the soffits etc, it would have added the cold air to the roof, and I would not have had the ice dam prblem that I previously had at the bottom of the roof, and now will have at the middle of the roof.

So I will now pay almost 4x as much to have this type of insualtion wihch not everyone agrees is a good idea to have.


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## mymoneypit (Jan 23, 2012)

*vent fan*

Any thoughts on if adding a vent fan would help as opposed to foaming the roof????


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Not unless you are allow for the incoming ambient temperature air from somewhere else. If not, all you will be doing is just pulling more heat from the home.

If you don't want to spray foam the roof deck and covert the attic to a sealed attic, you need to open up the soffits as I stated earlier in the thread.

You can open the soffits back up (remove the foam and/or re-do the soffits) and allow the ambient outside air to vent into the kneewall area and back up the roof where the kneewall meets the roof deck (it will also have to be re-opened).

Air sealing and insulating the attic floor is a definite must as well. That will help mitigate the heat loss via bulk air movement and radiant loss of heat.


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