# New Roof - Concern Over Seemingly Poor Workmanship



## cjakins (Mar 9, 2009)

A roofing company with very good references just laid my new shingles this past week. I was told my crew was not their in house crew, but a contracted one. However, the company said there wouldn't be any difference in the quality of the install, and that it would be done to their high standards.

This was a job that I had intended to do myself, but simply ran out of vacation time. The roofing contractor did just the shingles and flashing. All tear off, decking repair, and underlayment was completed by me.

Now, after the install, there are several things which are disappointing. A couple things were specifically mentioned during the bid process and one was even in the contract, but these things were not completed in the method spoken of. I'd like to ask this community's opinion (both pro and homeowner) on some of these items and see what this community has to say about the items of most concern to me. I'll start with the worst and go to the least offensive.

Photos and videos of the issues are here:
photos
chimney video
valley video
roof damage



1) chimney flashing and counterflashing: It simply looks sloppy. I really didn't like the prospect of cutting a reglet into my brick and using one large straight piece of counterflashing for each quadrant of the chimney. But I checked with two masons before the job, and even they told me this was the way to have it done. Personally, I would much rather have had the old ground out of the mortar joints and the new put back in a stepped fashion, and re-mortared into the chimney. The other way simply seems like a shortcut method, and more convenient for the contractor. What I ended up with was a very messy install, in my opinion. Scratched up, dented counterflashing and flashing in 3 different colors with overcuts not sealed, uneven lines, and just overall poor workmanship. But what do you think?

2) box vents: 6 box vents were added to the main roof and two ridge vents to the smaller ridgelines that are at right angles. The 6 box vents are 4 different distances down from the ridge. The distances from the ridge to the center of the vents range from 8.5 - 13.5 inches. The two that are 8.5 are so high up they can be seen from the front of the house and have their flanges under the ridge cap shingles. I've never seen that before. I thought the whole point of putting them on the back of the house was to make them invisible from the street if possible. And 4 different distances from the ridge? Is it too much to expect to have a "professional" crew use a tape and at least make an attempt at being consistent?

3) valley construction: I was told the valley would be a closed cut valley. The salesman mentioned that they sometimes run a bleeder vertically up the valley. I had had another roofer mention this method to me, where they run the bleeder and then just bring the corners of the abutting shingles to the edge of the bleeder. This way they don't have to cut anything. I mentioned this to the salesman for the company I was using and he scoffed at that method saying their valleys are definitely cut valleys even if they use the bleeder. Well - not on my house they aren't. They used the "no-cut" method which seems like another way to simply slap the job down faster and not have to take the time to cut. I asked the owner of the roofing company about it and he said they are using this new method because they have found water can tend to find and follow the horizontal line on the BACK of the shingles where the lamination is when using just a standard closed-cut method. My question, though, is how the seams between the vertical bleeders are going to keep water from following them? The method they used seems to NOT be the preferred method of either Certainteed (my shingles) or GAF. I even called Certainteed about this. Should I be concerned about this bleeder, no-cut valley construction? Why do the shingle manufacturers NOT suggest it if it's just as good?

4) no starter strip or adhesive on the rakes: I was told they use starter on the rakes and was even requested to purchase another bundle for this purpose. They used no starter on the rakes. We're here in MO where high winds are prone in the spring with storms. Is it standard practice to either use starter or adhesive on the rake edges?

5) ridge cap shingles: several don't seem to be laying down, and they range from centered on the ridge (6" on either side) to visibly off-center (7" one side, 5" the other) This is even visible from the ground, though more noticeable from the roof. Is it common for ridge cap shingles to vary along the ridge line? I sure don't remember my old roof being that way.

6) Some other details are more minor, though one was discussed as something they do for aesthetics. That is to run the ridge vent all the way to the end of the ridge, even though the actual ridge opening would stop short of the edge by about one foot. I was told they do this to avoid the step up and down look. They didn't do it on my roof. Stopped the whole thing short of the end of the ridges which got these. Drip edge was done about 4 different ways where the rake drip edge meets the eave.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Sounds like poor communications between the contractor and their sub.

Put all your concerns in writing like you did hear, call the contractor and ask for a face to face meeting, with the sub present also if the sub will be the one fixing/correcting the issues.

The bleeder in the valley method may not be recommended by most manufacturers but it will not effect the manufacturers warranty on their materials. They won't recommend the procedure because it was introduced by one of their competitors.

The chimney counter flashing is an acceptable and common procedure now a days, that doe's not excuse poor workmanship tho, ask them to clean it up or re do it.

The rake issue, I'm not familiar with codes in your area, in my area no rake starter or sealant is required all tho it's common practice.
But if they charged you for it and spoke of it in the contract than demand you get it.

Ridge vent, I always stop mine 4 1/2 to 9 inches short of the rake,
you can not nail with in 1 1/2 inches of the rake because of drip edge and shingle overhang and I don't like leaving 1 1/2 inch of loose ridge vent out there were winds are prone to strong gust.

Box vents, no excuse for them not to be uniform, demand they fix them.


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## cjakins (Mar 9, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> The chimney counter flashing is an acceptable and common procedure now a days, that does not excuse poor workmanship tho, ask them to clean it up or re do it.


So, I'm assuming you agree that the counterflashing looks less than nice?



Slyfox said:


> The rake issue, I'm not familiar with codes in your area, in my area no rake starter or sealant is required all tho it's common practice.
> But if they charged you for it and spoke of it in the contract than demand you get it.


How does one go about adding starter to rakes after the install though?



Slyfox said:


> Ridge vent, I always stop mine 4 1/2 to 9 inches short of the rake,
> you can not nail with in 1 1/2 inches of the rake because of drip edge and shingle overhang and I don't like leaving 1 1/2 inch of loose ridge vent out there were winds are prone to strong gust.


Actually, I hadn't thought of that. And, honestly, this is about the least concerning of the issues. It was less about the actual method and more about the disconnect between what I was told and what was done.



Slyfox said:


> Box vents, no excuse for them not to be uniform, demand they fix them.


I agree. I mean, is it really that time consuming to get out a tape measure? How can they be fixed without doing deck repairs to the hole they already cut?

It seemed very much to me that the salesman had never discussed my job with the contracted crew. And I'd be very surprised if they saw the actual contract. One huge indicator of this was the fact that they never showed up the specified day of the install. I was told the owner sent them to another job without knowing about mine. But if the salesman - who said he was making the decisions while the boss was on vacation the previous week - had told the crew about my job which was to start first thing Monday, then if they got another assignment I would think someone would have said something like, "Oh, what about the other job that we were supposed to do today? Did you know about that one?"

I take it you're a roofer by trade according to your profile info? Just curious 'cause I posted these same issues on a pro roofers forum online and was essentially electronically crucified as being the world's worst customer. A few of them said there were issues, but that I should let them all slide. After all, I got a roof that doesn't leak.


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## brokenhammer (Jan 11, 2009)

I see you're in MO. ST. Louis area? If the contractor's name starts with an F and they have a familiar jingle, they did some shoddy work and didn't honor their warranty on a friends house. If you haven't made full payment, withhold any future payment until things are corrected.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

cjakins said:


> So, I'm assuming you agree that the counterflashing looks less than nice?
> 
> I would call it a fair installation.
> 
> ...


Yes I am a roofer, I started as a helper in 1979 and remained in the field full time since.
You got poor advice from those "pro's" in the other forum.
It's you and your family that is going to be looking up at that roof for the next couple decades, not me, not the installers, salesmen, company owner or those pro's.
Express your concerns now because later will be to late.
I myself never except final payment on a job until the home owner has given me his, her, their approval.

I could straighten out all the above mentioned issues in a half a days work,
half a day to satisfy a home owner who than will be willing to recommend me to a family member, friend, co-worker, etc.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Slyfox, check out his post on roofing.com

You will understand why he was responded to the way he was and I doubt you could make him satisfied. His post on there was clear that he wanted to find something wrong in order to have to pay less and he wouldnt accept us saying that he needs to pay the full amount.

None of us said you should let all the issues slide.


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## harby (Nov 20, 2009)

The different brown you see is because one is brown and one is the brown on the back of white sheet metal. I agree the metal work is rough, the over cuts on the reglates are unexceptable. I dont run those kind of valleys but, I have seen them I believe they are called (california valleys). Over all it looks to me as a quick job in order to make a middleman some money. JMO


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## brokenhammer (Jan 11, 2009)

http://www.roofing.com/forum/about8725.html

Is this the response thread from roofing.com that you're mentioning? Did you do the job? I sure hope not. I have done 5 roofs in the last 10 years and could do a substantially better job than that. The pictures themselves speak of carelessness and poor craftsmanship. 
If this was your work, I hope roofing isn't your main line of work. There are many flaws in this roof which are easily avoidable. I wouldn't pay another dime to a contractor doing shoddy work like that. 



BamBamm5144 said:


> Slyfox, check out his post on roofing.com
> 
> You will understand why he was responded to the way he was and I doubt you could make him satisfied. His post on there was clear that he wanted to find something wrong in order to have to pay less and he wouldnt accept us saying that he needs to pay the full amount.
> 
> None of us said you should let all the issues slide.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Slyfox, check out his post on roofing.com
> 
> You will understand why he was responded to the way he was and I doubt you could make him satisfied. His post on there was clear that he wanted to find something wrong in order to have to pay less and he wouldnt accept us saying that he needs to pay the full amount.
> 
> None of us said you should let all the issues slide.


I have an account at that forum but have never used it but a few times and have not been there in awhile so my comment about the pro's posting there was based solely on this posters comments.

From what I see in those photos I would consider the job incomplete and if it was my sub I would insist he come back and I would not ask for nor except any additional monies from the home owner until my sub came back and fixed those issues.


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## Mr Shingle (Nov 20, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> From what I see in those photos I would consider the job incomplete and if it was my sub I would insist he come back and I would not ask for nor except any additional monies from the home owner until my sub came back and fixed those issues.


And after you did that you still would not get paid. This is not about quality but money. The poster was paid on an insurance claim and wants to pocket money. He could not complete the roof himself so he contracted with a roofing contractor to do the install.

Now after the install, he’s trying to get ammunition to beat his contractor out of money. That’s it in a nut shell, so SlyFox bring your sub do what ever you feel needs be fixed and you still would not be paid.

Can’t wait when this poster finds out just how great our lien laws are, and yes the stay on your credit report for 10 years even after you pay your roofer.


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## Mr Shingle (Nov 20, 2009)

*Brokenhammer*

*Do you like to exaggerate a little? Many Flaws, wouldn't pay a dime, easily avoidable, shoddy work.*

*Wouldn't pay a dime! Not even a dime Brokenhammer? Job look like its well worth a dime to me. I absolutly love when others recommend not to pay. Its not there house going to be liened and there credit being distroyed. *

*Many Flaws! come on now many flaws Brokenhammer? We all now with the 5 roofs under yopur belt this makes an expert in our field. Really many flaws, or are we dealing with some cosmetic issues. That in no way will shorten the life of the roof.*

*Easily avoidable! Over the last 2 decades in the roofing trade I have yet to see anything easy or avoidable.*

*Shoddy work! Really, this would pass inspection in any market that I roof in, and if not maybe 10 minutes of repair would do the trick.*


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Mr Shingle said:


> And after you did that you still would not get paid. This is not about quality but money. The poster was paid on an insurance claim and wants to pocket money. He could not complete the roof himself so he contracted with a roofing contractor to do the install.
> 
> Now after the install, he’s trying to get ammunition to beat his contractor out of money. That’s it in a nut shell, so SlyFox bring your sub do what ever you feel needs be fixed and you still would not be paid.
> 
> Can’t wait when this poster finds out just how great our lien laws are, and yes the stay on your credit report for 10 years even after you pay your roofer.


I can't read the posters (homeowners) mind, nor can I respond to something he posted in any forum other than this one here and nothing he posted here suggest he is trying to get out of paying the contractor.
He is displeased with the workmanship used to install his roof and when looking at the photo's he posted (assuming they are not fake) he has every right to be displeased.

Why do you think he's not going to pay?
Why would you be offended by him being displeased by the less than professional workmanship?

The sub screwed up, have the sub fix the problems,
than if the home owner refuses to pay there are legal steps that can be taken.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

<And after you did that you still would not get paid. This is not about quality but money. The poster was paid on an insurance claim and wants to pocket money. He could not complete the roof himself so he contracted with a roofing contractor to do the install.>


I have done several installs where the home owners tore off the old roof and installed the new underlayment.
Yeah, they wanted to save money by doing the part any decent laborer could do and let me "the pro" do the the part that's going to keep the weather out.
I see nothing wrong with a home owner trying to save a buck so long as their not scimping on quality while doing it.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I can understand helping people out, but we very rarely let the homeowner do anything. It just makes your company look bad if they don't do a good job or it takes way too long.

I don't know anything about this post, but if someone is trying to pocket insurance money, they can go straight to h3ll if you ask me. It is illegal, unethical, and just plain being a cheat!


Also, it looks to me like you hired a cheat, so that's what you get.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

The jobs I talked about were not insurance jobs.

I don't do a lot of insurance work so am not real knowledgeable about their rules & regulations.
I was not trying to suggest the home owner in this post has a right to pocket insurance money, I just did not see "and still have not" any mention of insurance money by the home owner in this thread.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Slyfox, Unsure if you checked out roofing.com. I remember seeing you post there so thats why I referred you to that website. He wanted to withhold money because some mortar dust got on the shingles when they were cutting in the new chimney counter flashing. It was things like that. If you saw the pictures, the job is complete, just not complete the way he "pictures" it so he was looking for a way out of paying all money owed.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Slyfox, Unsure if you checked out roofing.com. I remember seeing you post there so thats why I referred you to that website. He wanted to withhold money because some mortar dust got on the shingles when they were cutting in the new chimney counter flashing. It was things like that. If you saw the pictures, the job is complete, just not complete the way he "pictures" it so he was looking for a way out of paying all money owed.


I did not go looking for his post in other forums.


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