# American Standard or Lennox



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Well, If you want to go by consumer ratings both Lennox and American Standard are pretty low on the list.
York and Goodman rank as the top 2 (according to the reviews) in furnaces. Lennox comes in at 8th. AS didn't make the top 10

In AC's Niether lennox or AS made the top 10 (according to the reviews). Goodman, Amana, and Trane hit the top for 2014

https://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/top-rated-series.html

https://www.furnacecompare.com/air-conditioners/top-rated-series.html

(Don't shoot the messenger yuri  )


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

What size is the current furnace and ac?

Did the dealers ever mention a two-stage t-stat and wiring. You need that to take advantage of a two-stage furnace properly.

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The sizing really sounds ridiculous for a house of your square footage and age unless very poorly built, a bungalow, and or with air ducts in the attic. Two-stage is a total waste of money if the furnace is oversized; you'll never get the continous operation, cycling between low and high in very cold weather.

When you change the furnace, you have to look at the output rating, not the input. If your current furnace is 100 000 btu and 80% efficient, a 80 000 BTU 95%+ furnace would put out just about as much heat (76-78k) burning less gas.

If the existing furnace puts out 80 000 btu (burning 100 000 btu to get it), the contractor will want to put in something of equal output or more to avoid complaints, *even if your builder already added a safety margin into the load calc needed for permits 20 years ago + put in an oversized furnace on an undersized duct system. *

*The correct thing to do is do a new accurate load calculation*, especially when deciding whether to round up or down.

Chicago has a similar climate to where I am. Here a well build 2400 sq ft two story with regular 8 ft ceilings would get a 2.5-3 ton a/c *max* (depends on orientation and shading, window sizes, setpoints) and a 55-70k btu output furnace. The equipment you were quoted would be for a well over 3000 sq ft house. Now, you're more south and may have hotter summers, so may need something like 0.5 ton more or something.

This would been 66k input for the lennox (advertized as 70, but it's not 70) and a 60 or 80000 btu american standard.

American standard sizes are in 40-60-80-100-120 thousand btu. (inputs)

Lennox is 44-66-88, etc.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Consumer report has a different story:

Says Trane is about the best but AS and Lennox are pretty good:

http://www.essmwa.com/heating-cooling/2014-consumer-report-ratings-on-hvac/


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

re: brands

Consumer ratings are crap - ignore them.

It's all about the sizing, installation, and setup. Some furnaces may be built better than others, but overall, the brand is the least important factor.

Either a lennox or american standard product will serve you well. 

Forgot to mention, don't bother with 14 seer over 13 unless there are rebates or tax credits involved; the difference is less than 10% with a payback longer than the life of the equipment.

The ecm blower furnace bumps the seer rating up by 1 point anyhow - 14 (13 with ecm motor furnace) is fairly respectable and you'll see significant savings compared to an older 10 seer.



> Says Trane is about the best but AS and Lennox are pretty good:
> 
> http://www.essmwa.com/heating-coolin...tings-on-hvac/


Bob, are you aware that AS and trane are identical internally but with different color paint, a different logo and a different top on the a/c?

How could identical products have different ratings? 

Just goes to show that consumer ratings are bs.


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## EddieA (Sep 12, 2015)

Current a/c is a 3.5 ton 12 seer and furnace is a 115K BTU 80%

Im more interested in performance and reliability. Both companies do quality installs from what i have seen and read


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Grossly oversized, the furnace more so than the a/c. 

Goes to show that you can't size based on the equipment alone.

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Sizing really does impact performance and reliability. 

It takes 15 minutes of continuous operation for a furnace or ac to reach rated capacity and efficiency.

An ac can't dehumidify if cycled frequently or run properly if it doesn't get enough airflow.

Oversized units need to move more air and result in louder and more drafty operation than correctly sized ones.

Beware of reviews written by homeowners; they don't know enough to tell if the equipment was properly sized or setup, only if the install looks neet and clean. *Proper setup on site is very, very important. It's not like buying a fridge where you get it delivered and plug it in.
*


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> Bob, are you aware that AS and trane are identical internally but with different color paint, a different logo and a different top on the a/c?


Actually no I wasn't. Thank you



> How could identical products have different ratings?


Well, in reality only a small part of the total package is the equipment. So much of this depends on the install. The best machine in the world will run like a bag of doggy poop if it's not installed properly. Of course the machine itself gets blamed for it.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Yah, it's all the same stuff. history is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Standard_Companies t


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## oldbikes (Sep 5, 2014)

If you want a reliable furnace air conditioner system I would recommend that you get the proper size for the home.
In this case size does matter and bigger is certainly Not better, you live in an area where the humidity can get quite high and an ac sized grossly oversized won't run enough to get rid of the humidity. 
Also starting and stopping the equipment shortens the life of it more than longer run times.

Think of it like this, We have all sat in the living room and thought I sure wish the thermostat would kick in soon it's getting uncomfortable in here!
So this tells me that when the ac or furnace is moving conditioned air around then we feel more comfortable. A furnace or ac unit is a bit like a car, it takes a little time to heat things up so the first few minutes of running is spent heating up the components and then it does it's job, Just like your car efficiency and life is compromised by running short trips.
Go with the Dealer that does a heat load calc. you have the final say in this matter and have to live with the decision for the next 20 years, you did a good thing coming here to try and make a good buying decision. Please take the advice to the ones that are saying that the equipment proposed is oversized.
I've been in the hvac business for a long time and still tend to oversize the equipment just to be sure !!!!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

From a tech with 35 yrs experience IMO Lennox, Am Std/Trane, Carrier and York are the top 4.

Consummers reports etc are crap as you want to know 2-5 yrs down the road whether the machine is good. Everyone has warranty calls in the first year and a lot of complaints can be noise related from poor installs etc. Doubt the reports are from anything past year one.

Key point is to get them to use a 2 stage thermostat instead of 1 stage and not the timer in the furnace to switch stages.

Do a load calc yourself to get the proper furnace AC size. Beware some brands go up in 20,000 BTU increments like 60/80/100>Lennox and others go 70/90/110> Am Std. 10,000 BTU either way makes no big difference.

http://hvac-calc.com/main.asp


Am Std/Trane are built very well but I don't like the outdoor AC coil spine fin coil as it plugs easy and is very difficult to keep clean. Where I am Trane parts are ridiculously expensive. ACs have some similar parts like the fan motor but the furnaces DO NOT. The circuit board and exhaust fan etc is different for every brand.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The Aprilair 700 is fan powered and more expensive than the 400 which is a bypass unit. If you can use a bypass then I would as it is cheaper and has no fan motor to wear out.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Forget about the humidifier, you may not need it if combustion air is pulled from outside. If you're handy, you could always put one in yourself down the road. Needing a humidifier is actually a sign of too much leakage.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Get the humidifier. I have one and have a VERY tight house. You lose air from bathroom exhaust fans, clothes dryers and going in and out of the house. All depends on the climate you live in. In some cases going from a furnace that uses a chimney to a sealed combustion one gets you to the point where you may not need one but you need a large family, do a lot of cooking with boiling water etc. Not too often but it happens. Your choice. If you get them to put it on later it costs twice as much.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> Get the humidifier. I have one and have a VERY tight house.


In tight houses they probably work very well. My house is 103 years old though. I disconnected my humidifier after a year of use. I had more humidity issues in the roof crawlspaces this past Winter than I ever have.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

They work well in all houses. If you have poor insulation or ventilation in the attic that is not the humidifiers fault.There are always exceptions to the rule with everything but humidifiers we sell and use in every house in Winnipeg.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> They work well in all houses. If you have poor insulation or ventilation in the attic that is not the humidifiers fault.There are always exceptions to the rule with everything but humidifiers we sell and use in every house in Winnipeg.


Poor insulation has little to do with it in older houses (although insulation was not the greatest back in the day). Houses today use vapor barriers, while older houses didn't (paper and cardboard was used to create an air pocket inside the wall which function much the same way a diver's wetsuit does ). The rather porous barriers causes one to run a humidifier at a rather high level to attain the same level of humidity as one in a newer humidity tight house. Meanwhile all that additional humidity is going somewhere, and some of it gets trapped on the way out.


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## EddieA (Sep 12, 2015)

Well since I cant come to conclusion on the brand... what should I ask of an installer. I plan on having both companys come out and show me what work they plan on performing.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

I think the install is probably more important than the brand. Matching up the equipment with the existing duct work is a biggie. I would concentrate on that. Which contractor makes that an issue would probably be the one I would go with.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Well since I cant come to conclusion on the brand... what should I ask of an installer. I plan on having both companys come out and show me what work they plan on performing.


If your contractor:

1. Is willing to do a load calculation and downsize, not just say something stupid like "I've been doing this for 30 years" or "i've done many of these houses, this is the right size"

2. Puts the entire furnace, ac, and evap coil model number in the quote

3. Offer's a manufacturer's 10 year parts and labour warranty

4. Puts in writing that combustion air will get taken from outside

5. Has the quote itemized, including thermostats/wiring if applicable, return drop/boot modifications, plenum modifications, etc.

6. Suggests a two-stage thermostat on a two-stage furnace

7. Has good reviews and no BBB complaints

8. Is properly licensed and insured

9. Isn't condesending, willing to answer your questions, and is willing to say "I don't know" when he doesn't know rather than bull**** you

10. Discusses water heater venting -> ie if the water heater vents into a masonry chimney with a mid efficiency furnace, a liner should be in the quote

...you're in good hands.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Poor insulation has little to do with it in older houses (although insulation was not the greatest back in the day). Houses today use vapor barriers, while older houses didn't (paper and cardboard was used to create an air pocket inside the wall which function much the same way a diver's wetsuit does ). The rather porous barriers causes one to run a humidifier at a rather high level to attain the same level of humidity as one in a newer humidity tight house. Meanwhile all that additional humidity is going somewhere, and some of it gets trapped on the way out.


More recent research as shown that moisture diffusion through materials like lath and plaster is minimal and most moisture issues in walls and attics are caused by air leakage. When warm moist air leaks through the walls or gets into the attic, it hits cold surfaces and the moisture condenses.

Humidifying a old house to 30-40%+ in a cold climate is a recipe for disaster.

Very thorough air sealing can greatly mitigate this problem. Gutting the lath and plaster and insulating with a air/vapour barrier is the best option. There are also other options like air sealing on the surface and blowing in dense pack cellulose insulation which when done properly doesn't allow for much air movement through the wall + does a good job insulating. (do it wrong and it could cause a lot of issues)

Vacuuming out old attic insulation and sealing every penetration, followed by blowing in fresh cellulose to R-50 is also a good practice. (by vacuum, i mean a truck mount vacuum specifically designed for insulation)

An old house can be brought up to the level of a new house and be fine at 30%+ humidity. Its costs a lot though and doesn't add to resale value because 99% of home buyers don't know about or give a crap about energy performance. They only care about the bloody kitchen even if the house behind the walls is a pos.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> Very thorough air sealing can greatly mitigate this problem. Gutting the lath and plaster and insulating with a air/vapour barrier is the best option.


Yeah... that's pretty much the point I'm making. Adding insulation to a house is (relatively) inexpensive. You can blow it in from the outside, or you can wrap the house in a Styrofoam blanket. But in order to beat the humidity from leaking through you pretty much have to gut every exterior wall down to the studs to install an updated vapor barrier because it can't be installed from the outside. Not only is that a tremendous expense, but you also lose a fair bit of character to the house. Meanwhile people who buy older houses are usually people who are specifically looking for that character. That's us anyway... as far as I'm concerned it's pretty much a crime to do that to a 100 year old house.

Anyway, enough of this. I don't want to highjack this thread anymore than we already have.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

...i've read really good things about dense pack cellulose - 2x4 stick homes done this way are almost as energy efficient and tight as the same with a plastic vapour barrier.

Almost no movement through the wall, and whatever moisture gets in can get out - there's drying potential on both sides of the wall.

Best practice for old homes is to gut though; you can see everything (cover ups), bring electrical and plumbing up to code, fix structural issues. Makes a lot of sense if the walls have to be opened anyhow to replace knob and tube or something.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> Well, If you want to go by consumer ratings both Lennox and American Standard are pretty low on the list.
> York and Goodman rank as the top 2 (according to the reviews) in furnaces. Lennox comes in at 8th. AS didn't make the top 10
> 
> In AC's Niether lennox or AS made the top 10 (according to the reviews). Goodman, Amana, and Trane hit the top for 2014
> ...


Trane and American standard are the same thing. They come off the same assembly line.

At one time, American Standard owned Trane. then the paper work was done so Trane owned American Standard. Then they were both sold to Ingersol Rand.

The Goodman GMH is a crippled 2 stage furnace. Staging can't be controlled by a thermostat.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

It's been discontinued I think, and rightfully so. Just based on how it was designed - one of the worst pieces of equipment ever produced in this industry. The single speed inducer is worse than not having the option to connect w2 -> bye bye 95% efficiency rating. Goodman cuts corners *everywhere* in everything but their top of the line units.

A Lennox or american standard (or carrier/icp, or rheem) furnace is likely to be much better build than even the best goodmans out there.


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