# Fuel Injector Cleaner



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I use the cheapest gas in town and never use any fuel injection cleaner. In the mid 1990s the federal government started mandating a minimum level of detergent in all gasoline sold in the US. Top tier gas supposedly has more, but I don't buy it unless it is the most convenient. Most manufacturers do not include it in their maintenance regimen and some tell dealers not to sell FI cleaners, because some can damage sensors. If your car runs poorly because of dirty injectors, it needs to be disassembled and serviced properly. If it runs well, just drive it without adding any snake oil.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

BG44K is the best I have used. Do it once every oil change and during the last tank of gas before the oil change.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

It is mostly hype. 

https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-art...t a part of,now that last the life of the car.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I disagree wholeheartedly. We have measured dyno performance before and after. The issue isn't the cleanliness of the injectors as much as it is cleaning the carbon off of the piston crowns and the back of the valves. This is easily verifiable and trackable on boroscope.


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

This is useful!


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

To clean carbon from valves and other engine surfaces, cleaners raise the temperature in the combustion process so that it burns off foreign substances. That can be detrimental to catalytic converters and especially to turbos that live downstream. Ford had a real problem with ecoboost engines that used aftermarket cleaners. Use a dyno and a boroscope to prove that some snake oil works, which it might, and then a little later an expensive turbo or converter fails and nobody understands why. Nice job, some turbos cost thousands to replace.
The manufacturer does not say to use it in their maintenance specifications. If it helped, the manufacturers would be putting their names on the label and pushing it out, just like they do with motor oil and filters.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Are you a chemist by trade? Referring to all products as "Snake oil" is a bit of a broad stroke comment. I'd be happy to put you in touch with the actual chemists and BG if you would like to chat with them about your claims. 

I have treated hundreds of cars (as a technician) and never had one come back with a bad turbo. 

Couple that with the fact that much of the higher end treatments are done as the shop and under no load situations and your argument of higher cylinder temperature is moot.

What do you claim that a fuel injection cleaner raises the temperatures by? How about the pre-ignition and detotnation temperatures when a motor is carbon fouled? And wear on rod bearing when the combustion cycle is starting before TDC?


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. If you want to add stuff that is not in the service recommendations to your tank or anything else, go ahead. I prefer to follow the service regimen spelled out by the people who spent millions of dollars developing and building my engines. Remember Split Fire spark plugs that were supposed to add 5 HP to your engine? I put one in a lawnmower and raised it from 3.5 HP to 8.5 HP.
You have treated hundreds of cars, good for you. That is hardly a representative sample of the 17 million cars produced in the US in a year or the 289 million licensed in the country.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

"panties in a bunch"...? So asking you to actually provide some data for your broad and far sweeping comment is "panties in a bunch"?

Good...follow your rules. Because why wouldn't you question anything that the big auto manufacturers tell you. Remember the Tucker. Your argument of authority is a logical fallacy. If the auto manufacturer wanted the car to last forever, they would sell a lot less new product. 

The aftermarket usually comes up with ideas to fix most of the sh*t the designers get wrong. Ever seen a Volkswagen motor that sludges? It wasn't they that fixed that...it was the aftermarket. 

Ever seen a Ford Powerstroke 6.0 EGR cooler or lift headgaskets? How about a 6.4L turbo seals seeing as you are referencing Ford here. 

I guess you have tested the other 289 million in this case to come to that judgement? I have turned wrenches for a living before and have worked with the products and chemistry. Nice attempt and likening this to a Splitfire plug (which do make more HP).

Don't run it. I will keep doing the upper end carbon treatments and running 109 in the motor prior to the oil changes.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I walked through Walmart's auto chemical aisle and found additives for fuel, oil, transmissions, cooling systems, power steering systems, high mileage, low mileage and on and on. Do you use all of those? I am sure every one comes from a company with chemists who would tell you that your car needs them, and of course, that their product is the only one worth using. The original poster didn't mentioning having any problems with his engine, only mechanics who want to upsize his bill by adding stuff to "cure" a problem that doesn't exist. The GM garage was constantly trying to sell me a tranny flush. I guess they didn't read the technical service bulletin from GM that said to never use any external filling or flushing equipment on any tranny GM ever manufactured or the memo that said shops are independently owned and some offer services not recommended by GM. Garages try to make money. My brother has every ASE certificate available, went to college for auto tech, and was the lead teacher at in auto tech at a school for years. In his 50 years in the business, he never used additives, he properly fixed cars that didn't run properly. Happy motoring.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> To clean carbon from valves and other engine surfaces, cleaners raise the temperature in the combustion process so that it burns off foreign substances.



Other than direct injection vehicles, which are mostly diesels, that's not even possible. Most FI engines inject the fuel into the intake manifold outside the cylinders. The injector cleaners work by dissolving the varnish, etc. left behind by the gasoline.


Btw, hotter ignition is most commonly a result of higher alcohol content in the fuel, and burned turbos usually result from them not getting a chance to cool (i.e. running the turbo hard and then shutting off the engine right away).


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Windows on Wash said:


> "panties in a bunch"...? So asking you to actually provide some data for your broad and far sweeping comment is "panties in a bunch"?
> 
> Good...follow your rules. Because why wouldn't you question anything that the big auto manufacturers tell you. Remember the Tucker. Your argument of authority is a logical fallacy. If the auto manufacturer wanted the car to last forever, they would sell a lot less new product.
> 
> ...



So you are telling me that if I don't use your additive all those bad things will happen. If I use the additive none of those things will happen. Does the maker of the additive guarantee that? Do you personally guarantee that? I doubt it, but if they or you have a written warranty to that effect, post it, I will consider buying a bottle.


----------



## wooleybooger (Feb 23, 2019)

Windows on Wash said:


> BG44K is the best I have used.


+1
I won't get into a discussion on whether or not injector cleaners are "snake oil" but will just relate my experiences.

Over the years I've used several injector cleaners and never noticed any difference. The last time I used any it was BG44K in our 2008 Chrysler 300 2.7 L DOHC V6. Since retiring most trips are less than 2 and up to 5 miles RT and that every second or third day, maybe 20 miles a week including a 12 mile RT grocery run. The car was sitting mostly and a tank of gas lasts forever. The engine got to the point in was difficult to start, long cranking time then missing and finally running. Last resort before shop time was BG44K. This was my first time to use the stuff. Put a can in the tank and filled up. After the first 1/4 tank it was starting much better and just kept improving. After running a full tank though it fuel mileage improved 10/15% and there was a noticeable increase in acceleration. I'm sold.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Old Thomas said:


> I walked through Walmart's auto chemical aisle and found additives for fuel, oil, transmissions, cooling systems, power steering systems, high mileage, low mileage and on and on. Do you use all of those? I am sure every one comes from a company with chemists who would tell you that your car needs them, and of course, that their product is the only one worth using. The original poster didn't mentioning having any problems with his engine, only mechanics who want to upsize his bill by adding stuff to "cure" a problem that doesn't exist. The GM garage was constantly trying to sell me a tranny flush. I guess they didn't read the technical service bulletin from GM that said to never use any external filling or flushing equipment on any tranny GM ever manufactured or the memo that said shops are independently owned and some offer services not recommended by GM. Garages try to make money. My brother has every ASE certificate available, went to college for auto tech, and was the lead teacher at in auto tech at a school for years. In his 50 years in the business, he never used additives, he properly fixed cars that didn't run properly. Happy motoring.


Once again, quoting the manufacturer's from a position of "authority" is silly. They have, with regularity, produced equipment that was faulty and tried to stick the consumer with it. 

Just doing a "spill and fill" service on a transmission is remarkably stupid as it only exchanges less than 50% of the fluid and you wind up mixing dirty old with new. Fine...if your point is dilution is the solution, but a full exchange, with proper cleaning, supplied without exogenous pressures and in a pressure gradient that matches the pressure out of the pumps poses what danger? 



Old Thomas said:


> So you are telling me that if I don't use your additive all those bad things will happen. If I use the additive none of those things will happen. Does the maker of the additive guarantee that? Do you personally guarantee that? I doubt it, but if they or you have a written warranty to that effect, post it, I will consider buying a bottle.


As a matter of fact, I am glad you asked. If you use the BG line up of products on your vehicle, they will cover EVERY system that is serviced for the LIFE of your ownership of the car. So...yes, they guarantee it. 



wooleybooger said:


> +1
> I won't get into a discussion on whether or not injector cleaners are "snake oil" but will just relate my experiences.
> 
> Over the years I've used several injector cleaners and never noticed any difference. The last time I used any it was BG44K in our 2008 Chrysler 300 2.7 L DOHC V6. Since retiring most trips are less than 2 and up to 5 miles RT and that every second or third day, maybe 20 miles a week including a 12 mile RT grocery run. The car was sitting mostly and a tank of gas lasts forever. The engine got to the point in was difficult to start, long cranking time then missing and finally running. Last resort before shop time was BG44K. This was my first time to use the stuff. Put a can in the tank and filled up. After the first 1/4 tank it was starting much better and just kept improving. After running a full tank though it fuel mileage improved 10/15% and there was a noticeable increase in acceleration. I'm sold.


Good to know. It does have vastly more of the chemical in it that is responsible for the cleaning as compared to other cleaners. The Chevron Techron cleaner is actually not bad either. 

If the engine is slightly carbon tracked, you need to run the upper intake cleaning in which they have the engine run directly off the injected cleaner that is titrated in via direct injection. This will reset the IAC in the process and the car will run much smoother. If the tech is doing it right, there is a way to load up the converter and rev spike it to blow it out a bit.


----------



## wooleybooger (Feb 23, 2019)

Windows on Wash said:


> Good to know. It does have vastly more of the chemical in it that is responsible for the cleaning as compared to other cleaners. The Chevron Techron cleaner is actually not bad either.
> 
> If the engine is slightly carbon tracked, you need to run the upper intake cleaning in which they have the engine run directly off the injected cleaner that is titrated in via direct injection. This will reset the IAC in the process and the car will run much smoother. If the tech is doing it right, there is a way to load up the converter and rev spike it to blow it out a bit.


Also good to know about the Techron cleaner. I've been considering taking the car to a shop that does BG treatments for more work. As for the running the engine on cleaner, the last time I had my truck in for a tune up I smelled what I think was Chemtool injector cleaner under the hood. The mechanic conformed they ran the engine directly on a cleaner but didn't confirm Chemtool.


----------



## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Windows on Wash said:


> BG44K is the best I have used. Do it once every oil change and during the last tank of gas before the oil change.


At $25 a bottle, it should be lol. 

Not doubting that it's good, just hard to justify dumping $50 extra into a tank full of gas, even no more often than I do it (yes, when I DO use FIC, I use a double dose).

At any rate, I'm not down on anyone who wants to use it, and I'm sure it's good stuff...just got sticker shock when I looked it up.


----------



## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

"I do not always drink fuel injection cleaner, but when I do, I drink BG 44K."

I do not know all with regards to cleaners, but have done a lot of couch research. My opinion is that if you consider it as an overall "maintenance" item, not a "panacea" to fix a bigger problem that can be caused by many other things than just fuel delivery, then there are products that do get some results. As with any industry, there are many that exaggerate for marketing. 

On YouTube there is a poster "ChrisFix" that tests Gumout, Seafoam, and Techron. There is also a long line of internet threads on why not to use them, or when and how often to use them (especially stronger ones like BG 44K), and shops using them (not as upcharges, but quick fixes).

OP's question is very general, depending on problem if for some reason just fuel injectors, could range from solving only by a real sonic clean on one end, or a few tanks of BP gas (who refine with lots of additives) on the other.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

jproffer said:


> At $25 a bottle, it should be lol.



You can find it cheaper, but again, the Techron stuff isn't bad as is "Seafoam'ing" a top end. I usually run AMSoil in my stuff as I buy it cheaper. 




3onthetree said:


> *"I do not always drink fuel injection cleaner, but when I do, I drink BG 44K."*



:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh: 



I am actually going to post that to a few buddies. One is a massive BG homer.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I find it interesting how many "mechanics" think they are smarter than the engineers who designed and tested the systems. Also interesting is that some "mechanics" still subscribe to the old idea that manufacturers keep secrets about maintenance with the intent of causing early failure and the purchase of a new car. It costs many times more money in advertising to get the driver of another brand of car in the showroom than a current owner of the brand. Brand loyalty is important. Secret weaknesses hidden to cause early failure is an outdated idea from decades ago when there were only a few car companies and they could sell everything they produced.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I find it interesting how many "mechanics" think they are smarter than the engineers who designed and tested the systems.



First, being able to design an engine doesn't necessarily make one an expert on the maintenance of the engine, much less the maintenance of the fuel injectors, which are designed typically designed and manufactured by a 3rd party, contracted by the automaker. 



Second, consumers typically don't have access to any of the engineers involved. everything comes through business managers and marketing people at the automaker. 



Unless you have access to a design engineer for the company that produces the fuel injectors, you have no idea what they would or would not recommend. Besides, the people who repair vehicles often have a better understanding of the maintenance requirements than the design engineers, and have seen the consequences of a lack of maintenance.


----------



## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I have used many injector cleaners. AC Delco x66p is very good. BG is very good. But the best in my book is MotorVac. I use it to flush injectors and flush the intake. I don't know how the detergents work in gasoline but take off an intake off a 100,000 mile vehicle and it will be 'coked up'. Nasty as hell. Clean the intake and you'll have way more throttle response. Flushing injectors works. Now I will not argue that there is snake oil on the selves in store as I never use them. Wasting money. The MotorVac fluid washes the carbon. It doesn't clog converters. I have been doing this since injectors came out. Fords were the hardest to get clean but I'll do it twice and now a smooth running engine. Raw gas doesn't burn but the vapor does. If an injector is dirty, it will spit gas and not atomize it so it will burn efficiently. I also clean the throttle body with it and an old toothbrush then clean the residue with carb cleaner, start engine and snap the throttle a few times to clean it out but you still have to drive it.I remember GM saying that if you flushed their injector, it would kill it by removing a protective layer. I had a GM car with dirty injectors and ran poorly. The fuel injectors were $600.00 and change. I told the customer if they wanted to try flushing the injector as they were faced with buying new ones. They said sure. It worked. GM was lying. This was back in the 90's. Since then, I have been to schools and they admitted that they were lying and hiding information just to sell injectors. Imagine that. :vs_cool:


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Old Thomas said:


> I find it interesting how many "mechanics" think they are smarter than the engineers who designed and tested the systems. Also interesting is that some "mechanics" still subscribe to the old idea that manufacturers keep secrets about maintenance with the intent of causing early failure and the purchase of a new car. It costs many times more money in advertising to get the driver of another brand of car in the showroom than a current owner of the brand. Brand loyalty is important. Secret weaknesses hidden to cause early failure is an outdated idea from decades ago when there were only a few car companies and they could sell everything they produced.


Interesting that you say my "panties were in a bunch" and yet you are the one taking passive aggressive shots at with with regularity. I never said I was smarter than an engineer nor did I say I was mechanic. I didn't think it was possible to be doubly wrong in a single sentence, but you proved me wrong on that front again. 

My point was, and still is, that you make an argument of authority (on behalf of the auto engineers....who are smart guys and gals) and don't acknowledge that they have repeated designed crap in some cases. Not all, and not even that much...but clearly fallible. Cars today are amazing in all facets of engineering as compared to 30 years ago...but, fundamentally, combustion is the same process. Higher fuel pressure, better atomization, direct injection, precise fuel trims/metering, and heat have all made the engine more efficient, but you are still burning gas and the by product formation of that combustion is the same. 

If you mistakenly think that auto manufacturers want to design and unbreakable system, you are simply being woefully ignorant of some tenants of manufacturing. The technology has existed for decades that could produce a ICE motor that would dang near last forever. The Cummins is about as close to that in a production motor that we have seen (7.3L were close too), but they don't want to build that. 

I don't care that they say to "don't clean intake or injectors" at Ford, GM, whoever. They sell similar cleaning products under the AC Delco and Motorcraft label that are predominantly produced by 3rd chemical companies to fix issues that they KNOW about. 

You can tell me to not flush my transmission, and I can tell you that when I do that and use a quality fluid (assuming I started it early) that the car shift incredibly better and rides nicer. 

But I get it...you think everything is snake oil. Don't bother trusting the guy below me in this quote that has fixed more cars in a week than you and I will drive in a lifetime. 




Brainbucket said:


> I have used many injector cleaners. AC Delco x66p is very good. BG is very good. But the best in my book is MotorVac. I use it to flush injectors and flush the intake. I don't know how the detergents work in gasoline but take off an intake off a 100,000 mile vehicle and it will be 'coked up'. Nasty as hell. Clean the intake and you'll have way more throttle response. Flushing injectors works. Now I will not argue that there is snake oil on the selves in store as I never use them. Wasting money. The MotorVac fluid washes the carbon. It doesn't clog converters. I have been doing this since injectors came out. Fords were the hardest to get clean but I'll do it twice and now a smooth running engine. Raw gas doesn't burn but the vapor does. If an injector is dirty, it will spit gas and not atomize it so it will burn efficiently. I also clean the throttle body with it and an old toothbrush then clean the residue with carb cleaner, start engine and snap the throttle a few times to clean it out but you still have to drive it.I remember GM saying that if you flushed their injector, it would kill it by removing a protective layer. I had a GM car with dirty injectors and ran poorly. The fuel injectors were $600.00 and change. I told the customer if they wanted to try flushing the injector as they were faced with buying new ones. They said sure. It worked. GM was lying. This was back in the 90's. Since then, I have been to schools and they admitted that they were lying and hiding information just to sell injectors. Imagine that. :vs_cool:


 BB...never used the MotorVac stuff, but I heard its good. Shop I worked at summers was a long time BG shop and was kind of all in on their chemistry set. Best stuff I have seen from them with regards to the engines was the BG109. Verified it on back to back dynos where the car picked up about 8HP out of a 160HP car.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Windows on Wash said:


> You can tell me to not flush my transmission, and I can tell you that when I do that and use a quality fluid (assuming I started it early) that the car shift incredibly better and rides nicer.



Let's take a look at this. On one hand, there is GM who manufactures and through their dealer network maintains millions of transmissions every year all over the world. They noticed a statistically higher failure rate of transmissions that had been recently flushed. They looked into it and issued a TSB against using external filling or flushing machines on any transmission they ever manufactured. On the other hand is a guy who worked summers at the local filling station and serviced perhaps as many as dozens of transmissions per year. Maybe he was lucky and none failed or a couple failed and didn't find their way back to him.
The question: When it is time for your transmission to be serviced, which advice are you going to listen to? Do you feel lucky? Your money, your call.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> They looked into it and issued a TSB against using external filling or flushing machines on any transmission they ever manufactured.


Because many of those machine did what would be considered a "backflush", reversing the flow of the fluid through the transmission. This turn out to be an inadvisable practice. 

I do a manual flush on my vehicles. I drain the pan using the drain plug, refill, then disconnect a cooler line, start it and shift it through the gears, until it runs out about 2 quarts, stop and refill, and repeat until new fluid is coming out. It takes about 12 quarts and gives me a fairly complete fluid change. So far, all my vehicles shift better afterwards.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Old Thomas said:


> Let's take a look at this. On one hand, there is GM who manufactures and through their dealer network maintains millions of transmissions every year all over the world. They noticed a statistically higher failure rate of transmissions that had been recently flushed. They looked into it and issued a TSB against using external filling or flushing machines on any transmission they ever manufactured. On the other hand is a guy who worked summers at the local filling station and serviced perhaps as many as dozens of transmissions per year. Maybe he was lucky and none failed or a couple failed and didn't find their way back to him.
> The question: When it is time for your transmission to be serviced, which advice are you going to listen to? Do you feel lucky? Your money, your call.


There were a bunch of lesser engineered or smart machines that were introduced into the market. The better machines are pressure sensing and run (the older units) the same outbound pressure over the bladder to directly exchange the fluid. The newer ones use pressure sensing modules to exactly duplicate the line pressures and flow. I don't know of any issues that were ever experienced at the shop via the BG mechanisms. 

What he said. 











HotRodx10 said:


> Because many of those machine did what would be considered a "backflush", reversing the flow of the fluid through the transmission. This turn out to be an inadvisable practice.
> 
> I do a manual flush on my vehicles. I drain the pan using the drain plug, refill, then disconnect a cooler line, start it and shift it through the gears, until it runs out about 2 quarts, stop and refill, and repeat until new fluid is coming out. It takes about 12 quarts and gives me a fairly complete fluid change. So far, all my vehicles shift better afterwards.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

That is fine. I will go with the advice of the engineers and you go with the advice of Wally and Goober at the Mayberry filling station.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I will go with the advice of the engineers...


To which engineers would you be referring? TSBs usually originate with dealership service techs, to correct things that the engineers failed to anticipate.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Old Thomas said:


> That is fine. I will go with the advice of the engineers and you go with the advice of Wally and Goober at the Mayberry filling station.



Your argument is flailing here. The ship is going down, and fast. As @HotRodx10 mentioned, its usually the techs that figure the fixes out. 

An "engineer" designed the block heater that nearly burned my truck down when the one that was in there for the 20 model years before worked fine.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

An engineer designed every single piece of your vehicle. One failed. Not bad. Without the engineers every part would have failed.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Didn't say all of them were bad. As a matter of fact, I complimented the innovation right here:





Windows on Wash said:


> I Cars today are amazing in all facets of engineering as compared to 30 years ago...



But now you are changing the argument. The statement was the engineers know better about everything and that "Bubba" the grease monkey didn't know anything. So are you telling me know that engineers might make mistakes? Say it ain't so?!?!


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

When I hear arguments/debates such as this concerning engineers
I think of a back and forth that gets nowhere
con·ven·ient
/kənˈvēnyənt/

fitting in well with a person's needs, activities, and plans.

In one incident the same people will swear by engineers when it fits their needs, then in the next incident the engineers, make many mistakes, try and fool you, etc..

Which one is better Ford or Chevy in the meantime every one crosses the finish line from Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Volkswagen, etc..

Here's something to consider.

Out of all the cars that have been around a longtime would it be safe to say, some used and some didn't.

The only times I ever used fuel injector cleaner is when I thought I had fueled up with contaminated gas.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> An engineer designed every single piece of your vehicle. One failed. Not bad. Without the engineers every part would have failed.


But not all by the same engineer. Sometimes, even if the engineering of each piece were flawless (which it never is), there's still going to be unintended interactions of the various systems. 

Of course I'm not down on engineers, at all; you might have noticed, I am one. I do structural design for the DOT, mostly bridges. I know how very well how to design good bridges. That, however, does not make me an expert on the _maintenance_ of those bridges. I defer to the people who have inspected hundreds of bridges to determine when and how they need to be maintained. They also come up with things that we can do better in the configuration of the bridge components when we design them, to avoid things that lead to premature failure (like corners that catch water or provide nesting places for birds).

All that aside, I haven't seen anything from an automotive engineer that recommends against using injector cleaner.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> But not all by the same engineer. Sometimes, even if the engineering of each piece were flawless (which it never is), there's still going to be unintended interactions of the various systems.
> 
> Of course I'm not down on engineers, at all; you might have noticed, I am one. I do structural design for the DOT, mostly bridges. I know how very well how to design good bridges. That, however, does not make me an expert on the _maintenance_ of those bridges. I defer to the people who have inspected hundreds of bridges to determine when and how they need to be maintained. They also come up with things that we can do better in the configuration of the bridge components when we design them, to avoid things that lead to premature failure (like corners that catch water or provide nesting places for birds).
> 
> All that aside, I haven't seen anything from an automotive engineer that recommends against using injector cleaner.


I don't think I have seen an engineer recommend fuel injector cleaner unless its needed. If it ain't broke don't fix it.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I don't think I have seen an engineer recommend fuel injector cleaner unless its needed.


I haven't seen any recommendations, one way or the other, from an automotive engineer for any of the automakers. For the reasons I stated in my previous post, I don't know if I'd consider it to be an 'expert' opinion if they did.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Call it "fuel injector" cleaner leaves out much of the benefit of the product. I have never thought that the injectors really require cleaning in a gasoline engine if you are running good fuel. The cleaner is far more impactful on the pistons, intake track, and valves.


Diesel injectors absolutely do benefit from cleaning in today super high pressure systems.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> Call it "fuel injector" cleaner leaves out much of the benefit of the product. I have never thought that the injectors really require cleaning in a gasoline engine if you are running good fuel. The cleaner is far more impactful on the pistons, intake track, and valves.
> 
> 
> Diesel injectors absolutely do benefit from cleaning in today super high pressure systems.


Question.
Do you think fuel injector cleaners work on high octane engines.?


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> I haven't seen any recommendations, one way or the other, from an automotive engineer for any of the automakers. For the reasons I stated in my previous post, I don't know if I'd consider it to be an 'expert' opinion if they did.


That's a bold statement considering.

" In 1864, Nicolaus Otto patented the first atmospheric gas engine. In 1872, American George Brayton invented the first commercial liquid-fuelled internal combustion engine. In 1876, Nicolaus Otto, working with Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach, patented the compressed charge, four-cycle engine.""
"" Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S. William Sylvester Harley (December 29, 1880 – September 18, 1943) was an American mechanical engineer and businessman.
Founded: Harley-Davidson
Profession: Engineer, Businessperson
Born: December 29, 1880, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Died: September 18, 1943, Milwaukee

And someone is going to make it their career.

Has the combustion engine changed that much that even an ordinary person with no schooling certificate couldn't master it.?

And if so, what makes you an " expert".?


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> " In 1864, Nicolaus Otto patented...


Did any of those people give an opinion on fuel injector cleaner?



> And if so, what makes you an " expert".?


I didn't say I was an expert on the benefits/need for FIC. I went into a lengthy explanation of why I don't even consider myself an expert on the maintenance of the bridges that I design as an engineer. I implied in my analogy that I would defer to those who I do consider experts in vehicle maintenance (mechanics, service techs, etc.). I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough for you.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> Did any of those people give an opinion on fuel injector cleaner?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say I was an expert on the benefits/need for FIC. I went into a lengthy explanation of why I don't even consider myself an expert on the maintenance of the bridges that I design as an engineer. I implied in my analogy that I would defer to those who I do consider experts in vehicle maintenance (mechanics, service techs, etc.). I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough for you.


It was clear to me, but maybe not to you.?

You said, "" For the reasons I stated in my previous post, I don't know if I'd consider it to be an 'expert' opinion if they did.""

Why.? Are you the expert who can tell if someone's not an expert.?

What makes a person an expert, mechanic, service tech, etc., certainly not just a piece of paper.?

Do you have to be an expert to give the right answer.?


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> Why.? Are you the expert who can tell if someone's not an expert.?


Now you're talking in circles, just to argue. 



> Do you have to be an expert to give the right answer.?


Nope. As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

To clarify (or at least try to), I don't consider an automotive design engineer to be an expert on automobile maintenance, solely on the basis of their position or expertise in design. I do consider experienced auto mechanics and service techs to be in a position to know whether FIC is a useful maintenance item. However, as a skeptical sort of person, I tend to look for ulterior motives when evaluating advice, even from those who have the experience and background to be considered an expert in a particular field. As such, I don't trust the Amsoil dealer to give me unbiased advice on FIC. 

Generally, I'm the only mechanic I trust, so I end up doing pretty much all of the work on my vehicles, which on occasion, has included rebuilding an engine, along with many other repair jobs. I also occasionally do diagnostics and repairs on vehicles for friends and others. All that to say, I know my way around a car engine, and I understand, from my experience and study, a fair bit about how they work. Although I have done probably more than my share of automotive maintenance, I don't consider myself an 'expert' in the field. 

We've heard from some people in this thread who have done the tests and seen the results, and I have no reason to doubt their reports. They say FIC works, and I've seen nothing, other than what seems to be blind skepticism, to say that it doesn't.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

ron45 said:


> Question.
> Do you think fuel injector cleaners work on high octane engines.?



Yes. Higher octane fuels actually have a slower burn to work with higher compression motors and certainly do carbon up. Again, "fuel injector" cleaner is a bit of a misnomer. Its really to clean up the intake track, valves, combustion chamber, etc.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-art...at-does-it-do-and-is-it-really-necessary.html

"" MAY 21, 2020
We've all seen the advertisements on TV, in magazines, and in the automotive section of our local stores for fuel injector cleaner. The advertisements typically promise performance gains and better fuel economy, not to mention a very convincing before and after comparison photo showing how much cleaner your fuel injectors can become. But how much truth is there to all the hype and advertisements?

THOSE LITTLE BOTTLES HAVE THEIR LIMITS
Honestly, there's not much to be gained from adding fuel injector cleaner to your gas tank. While it is possible to clean some deposits from the fuel system simply by pouring the contents of a container into the gas tank, it's really not as effective as the marketing will have you believe.

To properly clean a part of the fuel system with heavy deposits, the system needs to be drained and portions of it disassembled. Only then can the fuel system components, such as few injectors, be properly and thoroughly cleaned. To effectively clean a dirty fuel injector, high concentrations of cleaner need to be pushed through it using specialized equipment. You simply can't get these concentrations by adding a 3 ounce container of cleaner to a gas tank.

YOU NEED A PROFESSIONAL CLEAN TO MAKE AN IMMEDIATE DIFFERENCE
There are services available at shops where concentrated cleaner is pushed through your entire fuel injection system. Some of these can be beneficial, but only if you are truly experiencing problems caused by deposits. If you are running into trouble codes that point to misfires that are diagnosed as clogged fuel injectors, then this service might be beneficial. But in the end, the proper way to clean any fuel injector is to remove it and even then you might still have to replace it if cleaning fails. If you are using a quality fuel injector cleaner, you might need to use a lot of those little bottles before the deposits break up.

DECLINE FUEL INJECTOR CLEANING SERVICES
The next time you are in for automotive service and the shop tells you that you need your fuel injection system cleaned out, think about what that really means. Are you experiencing any problems, or is this one of those 'comparison' sales tactics where you are shown a before and after sample and advised that your system is just as dirty.

Chances are it's less about preventive maintenance and repair and more about losing $200-$300 to the shop. You'll probably hear this statement at an independent shop as opposed to a franchised dealer. In fact, it's a very popular upsell at smaller shops, in addition to fluid flushes. The truth is, most franchised dealers, which are the ones that sell new vehicles, do not offer this service and for very good reasons.

MANUFACTURERS OFTEN ADVISE DEALERS NOT TO PERFORM FUEL INJECTOR CLEANING
Many manufacturers are now instructing its dealers to not offer fuel injector cleaning or even the containers of cleaner to add to the gas tank. Prior to the mid 1990s, this type of service or product may have been beneficial to the proper operation of the vehicle. But today, it's just not necessary and can even do damage.

Removing components as part of 'routine' maintenance can cause unintended damage. Some of these chemicals can even damage fuel injectors and emissions components, such as oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. There's really no one verifying many of the statements on the product packaging. In fact, there's really no way to tell what's included in these cleaners without sending them off for lab testing.

FUEL INJECTOR CLEANING IS NOT A PART OF MOST RECOMMENDED SERVICE
Fuel systems are designed to remain closed, not to be opened up regularly. But they are also designed to be robust. Many vehicles even have fuel filters now that last the life of the car. Manufacturers don't list fuel filter replacement as a recommended service anymore and virtually none have ever recommended fuel injector cleaning, whether professionally or by adding a container to your fuel tank. The manufacturer will list certain procedures that you should regularly do. But if the manufacturer isn't requiring fuel system cleaning, you probably don't need it..

ALL GASOLINE HAS DETERGENTS THAT CLEAN YOUR SYSTEM ANYWAY
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has required all gasoline sold in the United States since 1996 to have a minimum level of detergents to clean your system, so you're getting a fuel system cleaning already with every drop of gas that flows through your system. Top Tier gasoline and diesel fuel goes a step further. Top Tier is a standard applied to fuel that was developed by the major vehicle manufacturers to go beyond the minimum level of detergents mandated by the EPA, as well as to prohibit the use of metallic additives that can harm the emission system and fuel components. Top Tier gasoline typically contains about two to three times the amount of detergent compared to minimum EPA requirements and costs about an extra penny per gallon.

SO, SHOULD YOU USE FUEL INJECTOR CLEANER?
Just to put things into perspective: adding a small container of fuel injector cleaner to your gas tank is like adding a small amount of detergent to a full bathtub and draining it in the hope that it will clean the sewer lines. Those little bottles might help to clean out your fuel injectors and fuel system. Then again, they might not. We do know that modern gasoline will both clean your critical components and keep them clean. In fact, we visited a local salvage yard and disassembled a number of different components and found no significant buildups.

But if you are really worried, make sure you use Top Tier gasoline or diesel fuel, which is in use at nearly every major fuel supplier across the country. ""


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Do fuel injector cleaners work.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Not from a jug.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

An interesting article, ron. We don't really know the expertise of the writer(s). 

They also seem to contradict themselves:


> But in the end, the proper way to clean any fuel injector is to remove it and even then you might still have to replace it if cleaning fails.





> Removing components as part of 'routine' maintenance can cause unintended damage.


So, if you're having problems with your injectors, you should have them removed and cleaned, but that could cause unintended damage. I think I'd try the injector cleaner first, even if it takes "... lot of those little bottles before the deposits break up."



> Not from a jug.


I was wondering what your angle on this was; it seems now we know. If you're going to tout that ultrasonic cleaning sysytem, you probably shouldn't have posted the first article that contradicts several things in the video, like where the article says "we visited a local salvage yard and disassembled a number of different components and found no significant buildups." Where did the guy in the video say he got the really awful injectors he used for the test in the video? Oh yeah, a junkyard.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> An interesting article, ron. We don't really know the expertise of the writer(s).
> 
> They also seem to contradict themselves:
> 
> ...


I figured the information would fall on deaf ears.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

This thread has some legs...who would have guessed it.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I figured the information would fall on deaf ears.


What part of my reading, analyzing, and responding to what was presented, do you consider to be ignoring the information? You need to learn the difference between ignoring and disagreeing.

The information in the article comes from a source of unknown expertise on the subject, and the video sales pitch actually supports the contention that fuel injectors* do get dirty and clogged*, so exactly how does either one prove (or even provide authoritative support for) anything you've been saying?


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> What part of my reading, analyzing, and responding to what was presented, do you consider to be ignoring the information? You need to learn the difference between ignoring and disagreeing.
> 
> The information in the article comes from a source of unknown expertise on the subject, and the video sales pitch actually supports the contention that fuel injectors* do get dirty and clogged*, so exactly how does either one prove (or even provide authoritative support for) anything you've been saying?


I don't care, it's your money.

Me personally I don't use it unless I feel I got a hold of tainted gas. Then I use a combination of products together.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I don't care, it's your money.


Could've fooled me. You seemed to be putting alot of effort into convincing people that FIC is just 'snake oil' (and defending engineers from my 'attacks', which seems an odd juxtaposition).


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

If you keep claiming that the point of it is to solely clean injectors, then yeah...don't use it. 

If you know about how intake and combustion cleaners work, then yeah...feel free to use it. 

Freedom...ain't it great.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> Could've fooled me. You seemed to be putting alot of effort into convincing people that FIC is just 'snake oil' (and defending engineers from my 'attacks', which seems an odd juxtaposition).


I'm saying the same about you only the opposite.

My opinion about the small jugs of fuel injector solvent cleaners.
Its semi-good to correct tainted gas and nothing more. It may/not clean the fuel injectors to a point where it even makes a difference. If the injectors are bad enough to spit a code I don't believe the snake oil will work at all. If it does work it's only because of the detergent in the gas, there's no way that little jug will make a difference in a 20+ gallon tank by itself.

One has to ask, will your car last without it. I had a 2003 pickup with 282,000 miles on it before we sold it and we never put anything in the tank besides gas. The pickup ran great.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I had a 2003 pickup with 282,000 miles on it before we sold it and we never put anything in the tank besides gas. The pickup ran great.


The fuel injectors from 10 years before that weren't so good at keeping themselves clean. My '92 Metro ran better after a couple bottles of FIC, when I neglected to add some for a few months; same for my '02 Sedona. OTOH, I haven't used any in my newer vehicles ('06 and up), although I might try some in my '06 Impala, just to see what happens; the mileage has declined in the last couple years. Could be mileage/loss of compression, or the O2 sensors, but maybe not.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> The fuel injectors from 10 years before that weren't so good at keeping themselves clean. My '92 Metro ran better after a couple bottles of FIC, when I neglected to add some for a few months; same for my '02 Sedona. OTOH, I haven't used any in my newer vehicles ('06 and up), although I might try some in my '06 Impala, just to see what happens; the mileage has declined in the last couple years. Could be mileage/loss of compression, or the O2 sensors, but maybe not.


Maybe just a good-ole-fashioned A to Z tune-up with some TLC.

What size engine.?


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> Maybe just a good-ole-fashioned A to Z tune-up with some TLC.


Probably, except for the 'ole-fashioned' part. As I said, most likely it'll involve changing out the O2 sensors. I may have to clean the MAF sensor, too. I'll see what the spark plugs look like and what the compression test says.



> What size engine.?


I assume you're asking about the Impala. It's a 3.9L. Pretty fancy, with the variable valve timing and all that. It actually only cost me about $50 and a couple days labor (replaced a broken valve spring that the dealership told my friend they 'diagnosed' as "probably a cracked block").

The Metro is a 1.0L (ok, it's actually 0.993L, but they rounded up). The odometer shows 10,000 miles, but it's actually 310,000 (not on the original engine), but it's been sitting for a few years and sad to say its next stop is probably the junkyard. It's hard to give up; my wife bought it in '93, the year before we got married, so we've had it a long time (her dad has us beat, with a 1970 Chevy pickup he bought new).


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I feel like we are pretty much here...


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> I feel like we are pretty much here...


Shame on you.
And since you're not pulling any punches......
I'm sorry we couldn't put a sit-down-line for you.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Ooooh....getting testy in here. When a funny GIF isn't even appreciated. 

I hope you are joking and I am just missing the sarcasm. If not, get a grip and some perspective. We are talking about fuel injector cleaner.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> Ooooh....getting testy in here. When a funny GIF isn't even appreciated.
> 
> I hope you are joking and I am just missing the sarcasm. If not, get a grip and some perspective. We are talking about fuel injector cleaner.


"" ]Ooooh....getting testy in here. When a funny GIF isn't even appreciated. "" 

Same could be said about a funny reply.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

I just like how the responses to the GIF are making it more true.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> I just like how the responses to the GIF are making it more true.


Check this one out.
I don't know if it's true, but its funny.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

ron45 said:


> Same could be said about a funny reply.



If the response was said from a place humor...then its funny as all get up. Hopefully it is. I don't sit down to pee though...water is cold. :biggrin2:


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I don't sit down to pee though...water is cold


Now that was funny!:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------

