# Wood panel to concrete block wall



## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

I would not glue it directly to the block. It would be hard to install it that way anyway. The tapcons and furring would be easy and fairly inexpensive. A box of tapcons and a bit is less than $20. Furring strips about the same. Leave a gap at the bottom as a path for moisture to drop to.


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*Have you seen this thread?*

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/need-insulate-concrete-wall-88925/

Comments?


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

easiest, cheapest, best...... contradictory terms.:whistling2:


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

Insulate with rigid XPS and then apply the paneling. You can glue both or do furring...


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*Panel right to wood*

Do you think that glueing the panel right to the concrete wall and not using the xps would be a bad idea?


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*If you don't have a useful suggestion...*



jschaben said:


> easiest, cheapest, best...... contradictory terms.:whistling2:


If you don't have anything useful to add, don't reply. Thanks for the snarky comment.


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*Glue XPS to Wall then Wood Paneling to XPS*

I would be using liquid nails and Tytek tape to cover the joints. Does anybody see a problem with this?


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

sgold33 said:


> If you don't have anything useful to add, don't reply. Thanks for the snarky comment.


 
I'll clarify - 
quick, easy = glue it to the wall

best = drop 6 mil plastic vapor barrier from sill plate, install top plate, floor plate and studs, install insulation and electric.

I suspect you want something in between and haven't defined your requirements very well.


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*Clarifying*

I'm just trying to cover these ugly concrete block walls and exploring options. I'm trying to do this economically, but don't want the wood paneling to warp. If I can't put the wood paneling up economically and easily, then I won't do it. 

To be honest, all of that sill plate and framing stuff you mentioned would to be too expensive but thank you for telling me what you think the best way would be. 

From all the reading I've been doing, I don't think installing wood paneling directly to the wall, even drylocked and very dry basement walls like mine, would be a good idea without insulation because the moisture in the walls could easily warp the wood paneling. 

My plan, if I do anything at this point, would be to liquid nail Owen Corning 1 inch to the walls to stop moisture and warping, then glue the paneling to that. It seems like an adequate, economical, easier way of doing this. 

I'm a little worried about the glue holding up. I'm also worried the liquid nail won't adhere to the dryloc covering. 

Anybody have any other comments or suggestions?


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

jschaben said:


> I'll clarify -
> best = drop 6 mil plastic vapor barrier from sill plate, install top plate, floor plate and studs, install insulation and electric.


I would stay away from the poly. Read the paragraph on the right of page 5: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems

Basement walls need a way to dry...

I would not recommend glueing the panels to the wall. If you want to glue stuff, glue insulation first then panels. make sure to use a glue suitable for the insulation as some will react negatively with the insulation board.

If you don't want to put any insulation, I would highly suggest the furring channels. you need to keep the paneling away from direct contact with the concrete. The furring strips are about $1 a piece and can be spaced every 16-24". Put a strip of plastic behind each furring strip as a bond breaker from the concrete. Don't put full plastic on the wall though.


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

AGW has about the best solution for a quick and dirty job. He's also absolutely right about the poly. Dropping poly it still needs a clearance to allow for airflow to carry any moisture away.
BTW, you keep saying it is very dry. Have you done a moisture test? Tape a foot square of aluminum foil to the wall and the floor, making sure to seal the edges very well. Remove after 24 hours and see if there is any condensation on it. If not, it is dry. If so, it isn't.
I would not put insulation directly against there either. Just furring strips attached with tapcons. The glue can only be as strong as the 
drylock bond. Hang the panelling on the furring strips and leave 1/2" or so gap top and bottom to allow airflow behind the panelling. Any moisture trapped back there is a condo for mold and mildew. 
Good Luck


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

*New idea from contractor*

JS, did do your moisture test. No condensation at all and I tried to put it where I thought it would be wettest. Thanks for the suggestion. 

I am considering not doing the idea of doing all of the glueing mostly because of a discussion I had with my contractor. 

He said he could use a concrete nail gun to concrete nail pressure treated 1X4's into the concrete block walls and then attach the paneling using finished nails. He will provide all of the nails. All I have to buy is the lumber which he said he would need 30 pieces at Home Depot for $1-2 a piece. He also said it would look a lot better because he could hide the plumbing and electrical boxes. 

So, instead of me having to buy two boxes of liquid nails at about $110, I could just buy 30 bucks worth of lumber. I also might be able to use some lumber I have. He wants an extra $200 to do it with the framing, but with the materials cost difference, it's a wash pretty much. 

Questions: 

1. Does anybody see any problems with this generally?

2. Are 1X4's the right kind of lumber? 

3. I didn't see any kind of big price difference between pressure treated lumber and furring strips. Also, with the furring strips there would be extra labor involved since they are not pressure treated. Is there any compelling reason to use furring strips over pressure treated lumber?

4. What kind of nails should he use?

5. I would not be planning to insulate the walls. AG said this would not be a problem. Still the case?

Thanks guys.


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

sgold33 said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1. Does anybody see any problems with this generally?


_Not really. Accomplishes your immediate need, apparently with in the budget you have to work with._



sgold33 said:


> 2. Are 1X4's the right kind of lumber?
> 
> 3. I didn't see any kind of big price difference between pressure treated lumber and furring strips. Also, with the furring strips there would be extra labor involved since they are not pressure treated. Is there any compelling reason to use furring strips over pressure treated lumber?


_1x4's should work fine. No evidence of moisture with the moisture test so I see no need for pressure treated. I don't quite understand a labor differential for using furring strips_



sgold33 said:


> 4. What kind of nails should he use?


_No recommendation. I'm not familiar with powered concrete nailers. I'm thinking 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" long. Furring strip is 3/4 and the block webbing is about the same I believe._


sgold33 said:


> 5. I would not be planning to insulate the walls. AG said this would not be a problem. Still the case?


_No problem here. I'd just nail, not glue the panelling so if you want to upgrade the area later you can fairly easily pull the panelling off and do what needs to be done then reinstall the panelling._


sgold33 said:


> Thanks guys.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

1. Where are you located?

2. What type and thickness of paneling? eg- wood, Luan, 1/8"

3. Describe the "interior drainage system".

4. Is the heating/cooling unit in the basement?

Gary


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## sgold33 (Jan 17, 2011)

jschaben said:


> _Not really. Accomplishes your immediate need, apparently with in the budget you have to work with._
> 
> 
> _1x4's should work fine. No evidence of moisture with the moisture test so I see no need for pressure treated. I don't quite understand a labor differential for using furring strips_
> ...


JS, AG said you would need to put plastic behind the furring strips. That is where I thought the additional labor would come from. Also, even though I did the moisture test, I think I'd feel more comfy using pressure treated wood which I don't think they do for concrete strips. Again, I also didn't see much of a price difference online. If I go to HD and see a HUGE price difference, I will consider going with the furring strips. 

Gary:

1. Atlanta, GA

2. Solid Wood paneling. I'm not sure what kind of wood, painted. It's less than a half an inch thick, either 1/8 or 1/16. My contractor said its expensive and good paneling. 

3. The interior drainage system, as far as I understand it, is that about 1-2 feet were drilled out of the edges of the foundation, gravel was put in surrounded with corrugated plastic pipe which channels the water outside. Our lot is sloped right to left, so it's gravity based. 

4. Yes. The furnace is in the basement in a paneled off room just like the panel we are now going to use. The ac unit is outside.


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

sgold33 said:


> JS, AG said you would need to put plastic behind the furring strips. That is where I thought the additional labor would come from. Also, even though I did the moisture test, I think I'd feel more comfy using pressure treated wood which I don't think they do for concrete strips. Again, I also didn't see much of a price difference online. If I go to HD and see a HUGE price difference, I will consider going with the furring strips.
> 
> Gary:
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you have a first class moisture control system. Personally, I don't fhink you really need pressure treated but if you're more comfortable with it, do it by all means. Won't hurt anything either. Good Luck


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The foam on the wall is to prevent conditioned basement air from reaching the colder concrete wall *and* slowly release any moisture to dry to the inside wicking/or vapor through the concrete from the ground. With your system, the latter one is prevented. I would make sure to air seal the paneling to prevent air passing there, pp. 8: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems

You will get convective loops without insulation in the air space behind the wood (3/4”): http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/743

Air seal the bottom and top horizontal 1x’s from the floor slab and ceiling framing. Insulate the rim joists. http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...arriers/critical-seal-spray-foam-at-rim-joist

Use a sill sealer for a capillary/thermal/air break on the slab. Seal all joints in the paneling; hold it ½” up from the slab. http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/air-barriers-airtight-drywall-approach/

Code requires an accepted v.b. between the concrete and wood furring, or p.t. wood; #7: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_3_sec017.htm
P.t wood is not waterproof, (be sure to use the proper fasteners)and will have fastener air/vapor leakage points through the Drylock, to what extent is unknown. (Which I would water-proof and add a strip of sill sealer behind to prevent a heat sink directly to the cold concrete) http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/wood-myths-facts-and-fictions-about-wood/
Air tight is good as it’s required every 10’ across the wall and top and bottom against fire, anyway; http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_3_sec002.htm
I can’t tell if you are in Zone 3 or 4 for your basement insulation requirements: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_11_sec001_par001.htm
Zone 3= R-5 is suggested, not required- footnote “f”: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_11_sec002.htm
Check with your local AHJ on the furnace supply air (outside or adj. room supplied) to an enclosed room, if gas.
Gary


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

If you are going to follow the link (GBR) with the air sealing for convective currents then you had best ensure you have no moisture there. Those convective currents are what keep the system dry as stagnant moisture in a cavity may not turn out well for the wood paneling.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Finished walls require fire-blocking at the ceiling level, as do any chases. Every 10' horizontally as well. Do not leave a gap for basement air to "circulate" in a closed wall or ceiling--- against basement fire-codes. The convective loop links showed insulation is needed even with "still" air in a stud bay - even 3/4" deep.

Gary


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

GBR in WA said:


> Finished walls require fire-blocking at the ceiling level, as do any chases. Every 10' horizontally as well. Do not leave a gap for basement air to "circulate" in a closed wall or ceiling--- against basement fire-codes. The convective loop links showed insulation is needed even with "still" air in a stud bay - even 3/4" deep.
> 
> Gary


The air space I spoke of would be on the interior side of the insulation, not the exterior. You can fire block the floor joists and allow the wall to breath at the top and bottom. I couldn't find in the code where an air cavity in a wall is against fire code. Wouldn't that make every stud wall in existence against code?


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## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

Gray: Typical existing home structure
Pink: Batt or foam insulation at rim joist
Blue: Rigid Foam
Brown: Studs, base trim, and fire blocking
yellow: GWB or alternative finish material

Note the slight gap at the base trim (1/2" max.) and the gap at the corner of the gwb. This allows for air movement within the cavity space. The gap in the gwb could be done with j-channel terminations or a type of vent strip. There is no vapor barrier in this design and the foam would act as a vapor retarder due to its inherent vapor resistance (1.5 perms at 1" [R-5], .75 perms at 2" [R-10]) DOW XPS: http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...foam/pdfs/noreg/179-04421.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc 

If you find a part of this to be against code, please let me know which code and relative section. If you feel there is fault elsewhere in this design, I'm all ears.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

No openings in fire-barrier wall or ceiling for wood framed structure; http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_3_sec002_par031.htm


You need a full (no holes or slots) thermal barrier (for fire) over the foam board: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_3_sec016_par003.htm

In renovations, wood paneling even has a “flame spread or smoke” rating, follow the blue high-lighted links: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_appj_sec008_par002.htm
Interior wall covering minimums; http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_7_sec002_par017.htm


Not Code, but good building practice: no fiberglass at rims to let the air inside, needs SPF or rigid w. canned-foam joints; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/critical-seal-spray-foam-at-rim-joist/
Notice the “sealant, adhesive or gasket” at the ceiling/top plate joint and the drywall/plates joints at bottom and top of wall, inside, fig. #10: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1
Notice the foam board on top the concrete stem wall, next to the mud sill for insulation and “draftstop”. ADA approach from BSC, to keep indoor air from reaching concrete walls: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/air-barriers-airtight-drywall-approach/


OP, you may need 3/8" minimum drywall under the paneling if under 1/4" thickness, as sited in this post.


Gary


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