# Electricians installed two hidden junction boxes



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

I hired an Electrician to install 9 new receptacles, add a light to an existing light circuit, and add a smoke detector to the smoke detector circuit in the floor below. This all in an unfinished attic where they had access to existing wire and was able to run new wire to the attic from the garage below easily since there was already an access chute going down to attic (they put in a new breaker for the new receptacle circuit).

Well, two guys showed up who were not the guy i spoke to on the phone (who i assumed would do the job - turns out he went out of town). The whole day was one problem after another. It took them 3+ hours on the first day to try and hook up a 3-way switch to the new light and ran out of time and had to come back the next day and spend 2 more hours on it. Two guys spent 9 + 2 hours over two days on this job.

One of the guys told me later they have not been doing this very long and he had only dealt with 3-way switches about 5 times.

I got really worried after hearing that and looked into their work.

There are several issues that bothered me (including them not having a flashlight and using a lighter to see what they were doing when pulling the wire from garage - next to a gas line for the water heater!)

But my main issues are this: 

1. In one of there attempts to hook up the 3-way switch they cut then put back together an existing line and used a junction box on the rafter that will be covered up with a ceiling when the attic is finished.

2. For the smoke, they cut the floor in attic and put a junction box to hook up to the existing smoke below. There is also a worrying burn mark on the wire you can see in the picture.

Pictures attached. Is this up to code? Ive been looking through this forum and dont believe junction boxes should be hidden.

I am about to call another electrician to go over these guys' work but want to go in with my eyes open this time.

Any advice would be grateful!


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Can't hide junction boxes behind finished surfaces. 

I would call the company back and get them to send someone qualified to make that call. 

Have you paid for the work?


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Can't hide junction boxes behind finished surfaces.
> 
> I would call the company back and get them to send someone qualified to make that call.
> 
> Have you paid for the work?


Yes, already paid them. Actually, I could probably stop payment on the check.
The company had decent reviews, but I re-read the reviews and realized they only usually do small jobs like ceiling fans/new recepts.
Can't believe the guy was fine with even telling me they'd basically never done a job like this before. They were in way over their head the more I think about it.


----------



## jreagan (Feb 20, 2015)

Did they know that there will eventually be a ceiling there? From their point of view, it is accessible today.

My garage has several j-boxes on the joists that would make it hard for me to sheetrock the ceiling without moving/eliminating the j-boxes as not to bury them.

Regardless, they don't sound licensed to me.


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I can not imagine not having to get permits for this work and inspections.
Any real licensed elect. would know how to wire a 3 way switch.
Bet that's not the case.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree with the other guys. Sounds like a handyman company, not electricians.


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

No final payment until inspections passed.


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

Thanks guys. This is really helpful.
Definitely these guys knew the attic was being finished. In fact I already had drywall "dry" installed so the kids could do crafts up there -- they took the drywall down!
As for the smoke detector hidden junction, they had to cut a hole in the floor and remove the insulation to install it. Ill post a better picture of that one here:


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Yeah....definitely not certified to do electrical work in these cases. 

Call and get your money back or have them engage and electrician that will fix these items properly. 

Regardless...you shouldn't be paying for the work that is demonstrated in the pictures.


----------



## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

Agree they aren't electricians. However, getting any enforcement against the unlicensed is very unlikely. Hence, the reason to hire licensed professionals. They have something to lose and this gives the Contracting Board leverage to impose sanctions.

Mark


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

busman said:


> Agree they aren't electricians. However, getting any enforcement against the unlicensed is very unlikely. Hence, the reason to hire licensed professionals. They have something to lose and this gives the Contracting Board leverage to impose sanctions.
> 
> Mark


Completely agree. I wasnt trying to cheap-out hiring these guys. Money not that important. I did my research on Angie's list and they had great reviews. But the reviews were all for the owner. I think what happened is he went out of town and sent sub-contractors to my house who didnt care about the work.

Its amazing to me this guy has no concern about his business or reputation. 

I emailed him and told him my concerns right after the first day. He said it would be done right (it wasnt). Now a week later he hasnt followed up to see if the work was done properly. Obviously not concerned about his business.


----------



## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

Cary_NC said:


> Completely agree. I wasnt trying to cheap-out hiring these guys. Money not that important. I did my research on Angie's list and they had great reviews. But the reviews were all for the owner. I think what happened is he went out of town and sent sub-contractors to my house who didnt care about the work.
> 
> Its amazing to me this guy has no concern about his business or reputation.
> 
> I emailed him and told him my concerns right after the first day. He said it would be done right (it wasnt). Now a week later he hasnt followed up to see if the work was done properly. Obviously not concerned about his business.


I do feel for you. If he does have a contractor's license, let him know that if he doesn't correct this immediately, you will contact the state licensing board (hopefully there is one).

I've seen this get remarkable results.

Best of luck.

Mark

PS: Most states that do statewide licensing have a website to confirm the license details, including complaints.


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> I did my research on Angie's list


That's part of your problem.


----------



## MrElectricianTV (Nov 13, 2014)

Cary_NC said:


> I hired an Electrician to install 9 new receptacles, add a light to an existing light circuit, and add a smoke detector to the smoke detector circuit in the floor below. This all in an unfinished attic where they had access to existing wire and was able to run new wire to the attic from the garage below easily since there was already an access chute going down to attic (they put in a new breaker for the new receptacle circuit).
> 
> Well, two guys showed up who were not the guy i spoke to on the phone (who i assumed would do the job - turns out he went out of town). The whole day was one problem after another. It took them 3+ hours on the first day to try and hook up a 3-way switch to the new light and ran out of time and had to come back the next day and spend 2 more hours on it. Two guys spent 9 + 2 hours over two days on this job.
> 
> ...


This is a good reason why you should insist that your contractors get permits for this work. The electrical inspector would have failed this and the responsibility for correction would be on the contractor. In some cases as part of their contract, contractors are entitled to a partial payment upon successful completion of a rough inspection. No pass, no pay. Final payment is issued after final electrical inspection. In NJ the law allows a homeowner to withhold 5% of the total, regardless of the contract until final inspection is complete.


----------



## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Angie's list! Good luck!! Three estimates, all from licensed and bonded professionals who can give you at least five references, and they must pull the permit and pass inspection before final payment. Ron


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

busman said:


> Agree they aren't electricians. However, getting any enforcement against the unlicensed is very unlikely. Hence, the reason to hire licensed professionals. They have something to lose and this gives the Contracting Board leverage to impose sanctions.
> 
> Mark


If he was to complain to the Building Inspector, would that help?
Would they confront the contractor and tell them they did substandard work and make them fix it or refund the money?


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

I honestly dont want these guys in my house again even if they promise to get it up to code and work with the inspector. The good will has gone.

I thought about it and decided I will tell him I will pay him only for the work they did I know is correct. Ill then hire someone else to fix his work. ill be out of pocket since Im sure electricians love to fix other people's work.

Thankfully i was able to put a stop payment on the check before it cleared my bank.

Lesson learned.


----------



## MrElectricianTV (Nov 13, 2014)

Cary_NC said:


> I honestly dont want these guys in my house again even if they promise to get it up to code and work with the inspector. The good will has gone.
> 
> I thought about it and decided I will tell him I will pay him only for the work they did I know is correct. Ill then hire someone else to fix his work. ill be out of pocket since Im sure electricians love to fix other people's work.
> 
> ...


You might have a a difficult time finding someone to take over the work that someone else started. A new contractor might have to assume the responsibility for the work that the other crew did depending on the laws for contracting in your state. If so, you may not get a credit for the work already done. Talk to your building department and make sure any contractor that you hire gets permits.


----------



## patmurphey (May 14, 2013)

Make sure you don't now have a mechanics lien against your house. If so, now would be the time to deal with it legally while evidence is fresh.


----------



## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

patmurphey said:


> Make sure you don't now have a mechanics lien against your house. If so, now would be the time to deal with it legally while evidence is fresh.


I always have them sign a lien release before the last payment is issued...


----------



## patmurphey (May 14, 2013)

I was referring to his stop payment post.


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

jreagan said:


> Did they know that there will eventually be a ceiling there? From their point of view, it is accessible today.


Yes. This here.
It looks completely accessible to me at the moment. If you didn't tell them there will be drywall over top of that then I don't see how they can be held responsible.

Okay... never mind. I just read post 8


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

Bob Sanders said:


> Yes. This here.
> It looks completely accessible to me at the moment. If you didn't tell them there will be drywall over top of that then I don't see how they can be held responsible.
> 
> Okay... never mind. I just read post 8


Yes, I guess I wasn't clear on that. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. So, here is one that shows the drywall stack that the "Electricians" took down to do the wiring. They told me (and I agreed) that they will not re-install the drywall since they only do the wiring.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I realize these guys just had no clue about the code requirements. Absolute amateurs.

What is really scary is to think how many houses these guys have gone into and installed new wiring the quick way with junction boxes behind finished walls that most homeowners know nothing about. This is probably the first time they have been caught out.


----------



## Cary_NC (Feb 13, 2017)

Many thanks everyone for your help on this. I have resolved the issue amicably with the electrical company. Your insights helped a lot.


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

What was the resolution?


----------



## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Cary_NC said:


> Yes, I guess I wasn't clear on that. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. So, here is one that shows the drywall stack that the "Electricians" took down to do the wiring. They told me (and I agreed) that they will not re-install the drywall since they only do the wiring.
> 
> Honestly, the more I think about it the more I realize these guys just had no clue about the code requirements. Absolute amateurs.
> 
> What is really scary is to think how many houses these guys have gone into and installed new wiring the quick way with junction boxes behind finished walls that most homeowners know nothing about. This is probably the first time they have been caught out.


Just curious. I think the standard height for electrical boxes is 16 inches even though the regulation says there is no height regulation. But there might be local standards.

But the wire running through the walls in this pic (post 23 ) looks higher than usual. 

Is there a standard height for wire running off the floor or above the electrical outlet? 

Just Wondering


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

There is no standard height for cable or receptacles.


----------

