# Got duped, trying to recover, please help



## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

Hey guys,

I have a raised ranch and I live in NJ. The home was built around 1960 and we have spent the last ten years making improvements on the home. We recently made the decision to spray foam our attic as per the advice of a local contractor. Before the work was started, the attic was a traditional attic, had old fiberglass insulation and that was it. He pitched the idea of the area being a "conditioned space." We have a number of concerns, since the work has been completed, the house seems much colder than it ever was. All of the old fiberglass insulation was removed due to it's age and condition. When the spray foam was installed, the ventilation fan was covered over so the entire space was unventilated. My question is this, how can I warm up the house with the situation that I'm currently in? I'm thinking of opening the previous ventilation windows on either side of the space and installing bat insulation back down on the floor. What kind should I use? I want to use the "safest" kind because my daughter has significant health issues so I have to be very careful. Thanks so much for the advice and insight in advance.

Chilly in NJ


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

So the attic was turned into conditioned space, but was the heating capacity of the HVAC system increased? If you have a room with a space heater that heats that one room perfectly, but now you have to heat two rooms, that one space heater may not work as well.

Also, has your attic been properly sealed?


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

huesmann said:


> So the attic was turned into conditioned space, but was the heating capacity of the HVAC system increased? If you have a room with a space heater that heats that one room perfectly, but now you have to heat two rooms, that one space heater may not work as well.
> 
> Also, has your attic been properly sealed?


The HVAC system that we're using is a high efficiency natural gas furnace that was installed last year. I'm not sure what you mean by "was the heating capacity of the HVAC system increased". No adjustments were made to the system after the spray foam installation was completed. In terms of properly sealed, they spray foamed over the entire interior of the roof. There wasn't any ventilation involved at all. I uncovered the previous ventilation van and have been running it because in an attempt to air out the space and get fresh air in there. The fumes from the spray foam needed to be cleared. As I mentioned, the contractor who completed this work really did a sh** job in my opinion. Almost everyone I have spoken to is shocked to hear that the entire attic was unventilated.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Presumably, your house previously had soffit vents. Is that correct ?

What happened to them ?


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

SPS-1 said:


> Presumably, your house previously had soffit vents. Is that correct ?
> 
> What happened to them ?


I don't think I have soffit vents. I had 2 "windows" on either side of the attic space that provided ventilation. There's also a circular vent in the ceiling that has been uncovered since the spray foam was installed. The home was built in 1960.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

How does the backside of the roof sheathing breath? Just curious since it is sealed up now.

When you say it "feels colder" have you used a thermometer? Are the rooms heating vs. change in season make the HVAC work harder? Was the attic tied into the HVAC with vents? Are there provisions for the cold attic are to return to the intake plenum? Or is the heat captured in the attic simply by radiating through the ceilings forcing the cold air down? (My questions demonstrate that I don't have a full grasp of what the "contractor" did.)

I'd be curious what his positive argument had been that increasing your total heated volume, thus increasing the workload on the HVAC and your wallet, would be beneficial to you - as opposed to just replacing/overlaying more fiberglas (a DIY project). 

To make the rooms feel like they used to would mean reinstalling some insulation on the attic floor. (Again - we need an HVAC engineer to give pithy answers versus my conjecture.)


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I you open vents for smells you have defeated the system . All you have done is remove the insulation that you had . 
It doesn't sound like you understood what you had and what you were changing to. 
I would have the air quality checked in the attic, things can go wrong with foam insulation and you should make sure it is safe to be in the house.


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

Domo said:


> How does the backside of the roof sheathing breath? Just curious since it is sealed up now.
> 
> When you say it "feels colder" have you used a thermometer? Are the rooms heating vs. change in season make the HVAC work harder? Was the attic tied into the HVAC with vents? Are there provisions for the cold attic are to return to the intake plenum? Or is the heat captured in the attic simply by radiating through the ceilings forcing the cold air down? (My questions demonstrate that I don't have a full grasp of what the "contractor" did.)
> 
> ...


I don't think the back side is breathing. The attic is not tied into the HVAC with vents. His positive argument was to create a "conditioned space in the home" for efficiency sake. When I look back seems like a load of bullsh** because all I'm using the attic for is storage. I can't tell you how infuriated I am with myself with this situation. I recently spoke with an insulation company and they seemed to think that installing the traditional bat insulation on the floor joices will improve the situation significantly. They are coming out to make an assessment after the weekend. I wish I had taken the time to complete some extensive research and I would not have chosen spray foam. Now, I'm just trying to fix this situation.


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## geenowalker (Aug 19, 2013)

Can you upload a pic of what you have now. Include one of the corner where the attick floor meets the walls and roof.

" I'm not sure what you mean by "was the heating capacity of the HVAC system increased "

HVAC units are sizes to accommodate a particular home size. If you increase the home size (add livable space where there was once an attic), the size of the HVAC system should increase.

Any chance they foamed they sucked foam into the returns? Are you getting the right volume of air and temp at the furnace discharge duct, and right amount of air on the return side. Ask an HVAC company to take some measurements before the insulation guys come out. Unit should be serviced twice a year (assuming you have AC for summer) and the measurements should have been taken at that time. Do a before and after compare.









Inspecting Spray-Foam Insulation Applied Under Plywood and OSB Roof Sheathing


Learn how to inspect spray foam insulation installed under plywood and OSB roof sheathing.




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.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Wow...This is confusing in what the contractor represented to you or what your exact circumstnce was.

Foam can be great in walls and in some vaulted circumstances, but I think you are saying that you had concerns with your old insulation, and rather than replace your ceiling insulation, some guy said just make the attic conditioned space and foamed your rafters, and removed your ceiling insulation.

*I know it's too late, but I would get some other professional opinions on what to do now.*

Yes, I would expect your living space would be colder now.

Hot living space air RISES, and is now excaping/transfering into your attic. Why would you want a conditioned attic...Is it possibly a used space, or perhaps all your duckwork is run up there and old poorly insulated duckwork.??????

And if you are now ventilating that attic, in essence you are leaving your windows open.

I'm not sure of your answer, as I don't understand the original problem you were facing.

I also have concern with the breathability of your roof sheathing and your type of roofing...,.those issues don't show up for years.

Good luck...


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Wow...This is confusing in what the contractor represented to you or what your exact circumstnce was.
> 
> Foam can be great in walls and in some vaulted circumstances, but I think you are saying that you had concerns with your old insulation, and rather than replace your ceiling insulation, some guy said just make the attic conditioned space and foamed your rafters, and removed your ceiling insulation.
> 
> ...


I do have a professional insulating coming in on Monday to take a look at the situation. I guess, stupidly, I didn't fully understand where I was and where I was headed. It's purely being used for storage space. The duckwork is not present there. We're ventilating now because I guess I just want to ensure that there's fresh air being moved through the space for air quality concerns. The original issue was the old bat insulation was being to smell which was causing concern for us and we wanted to create a more efficient home since we converted to natural gas last year.


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

Here are some photos, these are the only ones I have. I will take some more tonight.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Forget that the foam insulation is up there except to establish good traditional soffit to high vent ventilation. Then air seal the attic floor (a detailed process we can help) and install R-40 or greater of Roxul mineral wool batts. You can create a raised platform and walkway to allow for the insulation and some storage use.

Build a box around your attic access and insulate/air seal that hatch.

Your house will return to warmer than before with just the dent in your wallet.

Bud


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

JPS3D said:


> I don't think I have soffit vents. I had 2 "windows" on either side of the attic space that provided ventilation. There's also a circular vent in the ceiling that has been uncovered since the spray foam was installed. The home was built in 1960.


What you had were gable vents. Those are now covered up and sealed?

Your circular vent "in the ceiling" means "in the attic floor?"


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

Yep, gable vents. Sorry for the lack of knowledge. Learning as much as I can. The gable vents have been covered up and sealed off. The circular vent is in the roof.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

So...your circular roof vent is "uncovered" and you're surprised that warm air is escaping?


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm not surprised that warm air is escaping, I understand that warm air rises and it will naturally be vented by the roof vent. Just looking for advice in how to move forward with what has been established.


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## Porsche986S (Dec 10, 2017)

Your attic floor is covered in what looks to be plywood . Is there insulation UNDER that plywood ? The fiberglass insulation that was removed was it ON TOP of the plywood ? If that were my house I would cover/seal the vent opening you say is in the roof . That way the roof structure is sealed . But then you have to stop the hot air from rising up from the first floor up into the attic space . Insulation UNDER or ON the attic floor will do that . From the two pics posted I don't see anything wrong with the foam application but I am no expert .


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## flyingron (Dec 15, 2020)

There's no point in spray foaming the envelope unless things are fully sealed up. Sprayfoaming the inside of the roof sheathing needs to also include sealing up any eave and soffit vents. Once this is done properly, you shouldn't have any real problem (though you may wish to examine the entire house's ventilation once it is better insulated).


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

There used to be fiberglass insulation under that plywood. The plywood was removed, all the old insulation was removed and the plywood was screwed back down. My plan as of right now seems to be purchasing Rockwool Comfortbatt with a decent R value and placing between the floor joyces, pulling up the plywood and install the insulation there as well. I think I'll also be opening the gables as well. I understand that this may be undermining the purpose of the spray foam insulation to a certain degree. I'm anxious to hear what the insulation contractors assessment will be.


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## geenowalker (Aug 19, 2013)

What is your ultimate goal for the attic?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

JPS3D said:


> There used to be fiberglass insulation under that plywood. The plywood was removed, all the old insulation was removed and the plywood was screwed back down. My plan as of right now seems to be purchasing Rockwool Comfortbatt with a decent R value and placing between the floor joyces, pulling up the plywood and install the insulation there as well. I think I'll also be opening the gables as well. I understand that this may be undermining the purpose of the spray foam insulation to a certain degree. I'm anxious to hear what the insulation contractors assessment will be.


There are 2 systems, closed system or vented system 
The vented system you had was never right and it would have been best to up grade the soffet vents.
If all the insulation was under the plywood you never had enough. 
So with the foam how thick is it and what R value should that be. 
Has the smell dissipated? Have you had the air tested for dangerous content?


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

geenowalker said:


> What is your ultimate goal for the attic?


The ultimate goal right now is to get the living space to be warmer and use the attic as storage space. At this point, I really don't care about the attic being a conditioned space. The reason we removed the old fiberglass insulation is that it was the original insulation was aged and breaking down. We also wanted to inspect for mold other problems (health concerns for my daughter). Once the old insulation was removed, there was a musty smelled that has since improved.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks....Let us know what conclusion the insulation guys come up with. I don't know your climate and standards for your climate area..... but double sealing (for instance air tight ceiling and non ventilated attic) any area somewhat worries me in regard to moisture/mold control in certain climates.

In effect, I think you are saying you might go back with what you had but with new better ceiling issulation. As neal points out, depending on the depth of your ceiling joists, I'm not sure how much R you can get under that decking.

Can I ask how much was that foam job.....???


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

What we know and don't know.
*We know or think we know? *
You did not have a roof leak.
you did have a moisture problem, musty smell? 
you did not have adequate venting , musty smell? 
you did not have enough old insulation
you had foam installed and closed all vents.
you opened vent to dissipate smell from attic
if you go back to a vented system you have to create more vents than you had before 
you have completely seal the ceiling so that no air can get to the attic from the house 
If you keep the plywood up there it will have to be raised to get enough insulation under it. 
*What we don't know?*
Was there enough foam installed to give you enough R value 
was the mixture right to make it a safe installation 
did it keep the house warm before you opened the vents? 
if the smell has dissipated have you closed the vents to see how it performs.
What is the experience with others with an attic that is condition or not when the attic has foam.
If the attic is conditioned can the existing HVAC handle that.


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## JPS3D (Jan 7, 2021)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Thanks....Let us know what conclusion the insulation guys come up with. I don't know your climate and standards for your climate area..... but double sealing (for instance air tight ceiling and non ventilated attic) any area somewhat worries me in regard to moisture/mold control in certain climates.
> 
> In effect, I think you are saying you might go back with what you had but with new better ceiling issulation. As neal points out, depending on the depth of your ceiling joists, I'm not sure how much R you can get under that decking.
> 
> Can I ask how much was that foam job.....???


I'll let you know what they come up with for sure. We're in North NJ, so the winters are pretty cold and the summers get hot as well. That is in effect, what I'm saying. Just trying to make the best of of the situation and move forward. The ceiling joists are relatively deep and the old insulation was under there. I will measure them and find out. I'm embarassed to say that the job was just under 10k. That included the rim joists for the entire house to be spray foamed as well as the attic, the old insulation and plywood was pulled up and reinstalled, a significant portion of my garage was insulated with traditional bat insulation as well.


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## Kumfertson (Jan 13, 2021)

Same issue! If i turn my heat above 65 it basically never shuts off, ac at 73. I may take them to court! 



JPS3D said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have a raised ranch and I live in NJ. The home was built around 1960 and we have spent the last ten years making improvements on the home. We recently made the decision to spray foam our attic as per the advice of a local contractor. Before the work was started, the attic was a traditional attic, had old fiberglass insulation and that was it. He pitched the idea of the area being a "conditioned space." We have a number of concerns, since the work has been completed, the house seems much colder than it ever was. All of the old fiberglass insulation was removed due to it's age and condition. When the spray foam was installed, the ventilation fan was covered over so the entire space was unventilated. My question is this, how can I warm up the house with the situation that I'm currently in? I'm thinking of opening the previous ventilation windows on either side of the space and installing bat insulation back down on the floor. What kind should I use? I want to use the "safest" kind because my daughter has significant health issues so I have to be very careful. Thanks so much for the advice and insight in advance.
> 
> Chilly in NJ


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