# first deck build...need some help



## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

*deck over/on top of concrete patio?*











now that the pergola is gone....not sure what to do w/ the space?

maybe a low deck over ( or on?) the patio?? i'd like to close in the open spot on the right side near the garage.

could I build right on the patio?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

or maybe i'll stain the concrete?....anyone done this?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

What's the Wife want?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

honestly, my wife doesn't have the patience for home improvement. she loves to talk about changes/upgrades, bust as soon as I start a project she gets squeamish. she's ok with either approach as long as I do it right.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Your set up perfectly to build off the patio. I’d come up so the decking ended up right under the door sill. 
Do you want to cover it?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

a friend of mine emailed me this advice....

"You don't want the deck directly on the slab, because every rainstorm will trap water there which will sit there and rot the wood, and even pressure treated wood won't last long that way. At the very least you want it up a couple inches, but personally I would "lift" it to the height of the back door anyway. That will let you get a leaf blower under it and blow the crap (leaves, twigs, hot dog bun pieces) that will inevitably fall between the boards and clean it out once in a while. I'd try to run the joists side to side so you can "blow" the stuff out, if you run them front to back you can only blow the stuff against the house, which you really don't want.

You might not have enough height to use those piers from earlier in the thread (add that height to a 2x6 or preferably 2x8 joist) and you might be too high. But using a few pavers and then the joists might give you the right height. Run the back joist into and fastened to the back wall of the house, that will give you stability from having it "drift." I'd try to run the joists side to side so you can "blow" the stuff out, if you run them front to back you can only blow the stuff against the house, which you really don't want.

My neighbor concocted an awning out of canvas (I think he told me he got it at a marine store: sailcloth, maybe?) and PVC pipes. It's about 5' x 20', with a triangular frame built from heavy duty PVC. Gorgeous blue color canvas. He put grommets in the canvas, then looped rope through the grommets and around the pipe, which attached to the house. Looks good, actually. Only covers about half the porch, but he says that's all he wanted; enough coverage for the grill and the doghouse.

Looks kind of like this without the curvature:
http://www.austinsignsfl.com/images/awning3.jpg

Attached kind of like this, with one continuous rope:
http://www.tarpcountry.com/images/lashed-tarp.jpg

Using one of these will give you a 4x4 anchor from which you can run a "stub" to lift the deck. And these will keep the end of the 4x4 off any pooled water as well.

link broken "


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

having never done a job like this before I need to break this down step by step

where to begin?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

can i secure deck posts to the sides of the concrete by using a hammer drill and some concrete anchors?

would i have to attach a low deck like this to the house?

i have 8.5" from the slab to the wood at the bottom of my door


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

If your going to put some kind of cover over the top I would run treated 4x4 into the ground in concrete just to the outside and up against your patio slab.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

i probably won't do a top/cover.....in a few other threads others have commented on the problems i might have with the slope of a roof...i don't know enough about roofs to know what issues i might have with such a project...

so if i am not going to build a roof, would it be ok to go into the side of the concrete?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

i've posted a few threads as i've torn down the pergola and considered various ways to improve this space












pretty sure I want to build a deck back here, no roof.

i have 8.5" from the current concrete slab to the wood at the door

not sure how exactly to proceed


found this website...

http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60428

they anchor the joists (perpendicular to the house) directly to the concrete using L brackets...

i know if I have to install some pier blocks into the grass to attach the joists

if i use 2 X 6s for my joists (5 1/2 " height) and 2 X4s for my decking (1.5" height), i will be very close to the bottom of the door, which is about 8.5" from the concrete.


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## Snav (Aug 20, 2009)

The individual blocking for piers are rather costly.

I'd, personally, dig and cement in 4x4's (or bigger) - cantilever the deck a bit so the posts won't show - and build a classic deck bypassing the use of the current concrete and attaching the deck to the house properly.

You can get a bit creative with large wooden flower pots or decorative benches instead of a railing. . . and I'd build a privacy fence and let it grow over with a flower ivy of some type - or no flowering.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

found this video from bob villa's website. a free floating deck over a concrete slab is being installed. metal fasteners are being used so that no wood has contact with concrete. 


http://tinyurl.com/ygfu6sr


just curious, when i watch the villa video, i can't tell how they secured the band joist to the small posts that are nailed to the concrete via the fastener. Are they just sitting on them?


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## Snav (Aug 20, 2009)

Yeah, good solution.
Any contact of concrete slabs and so forth with deck wood will lead to rot and mold - at the least.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

snav,


if, or when, you have a moment, can you see in the video how they are stabilizing the band joist?


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

you can definately build onto of the concrete by laying down sleepers as the substructure. Is the concrete sloped at all? if so you want to put the sleepers in that direction so water drains from underneath the deck properly. Idealy you want the sleepers (joists) running away from the house since decking looks much better if its running parallel to the house. How far is the door threshold off the concrete? what decking materlial were you thinking of using.

To do Sleepers An easy way that I dd this is I bolted 2X4s PTE flat on the concrete using Galvinized 3/8" redheads and then screwed 2x4s PTE or in your case 2x6s to the 2x4s. I also glued the sleeper to concrete and 2x4s. Before I put decking on I coverd the whole assembly with *****ethane flashing to waterproof it even more. My Patio was sloped so I had to cut my sleepers to get the deck level. this was the hardest thing to do and takes a little practice.

Another thing you can do is use slate tile or something to cover the patio. Slate is not that expensive and probably won't cost or take you any more time than a deck.


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh another solution instead of bolting 2x4s down is to fasten them with concrete nails. You can see from the picture above I had some issues synch the nails all the way in even on highest charges so I stuck with redheads. I have done on a previous deck with no problems and its a lot faster.


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## Snav (Aug 20, 2009)

At count 1:25 he says: 
"with the joist hangars in place we're ready to assemble all the pieces and nail them after . . . " then they pick up their piece and just rest it on top of the supports without attaching it at this point.
It looks like they're trying to fit a bracket onto the support, but they're just balancing it on the edge. (at least that's what it looks like)

It doesn't look like there is a bracket on top of the support and under the deck rail - but there should be (maybe a true floating deck doesn't have them, but that makes no sense in a place like florida with hurricane force winds) - So the best bet is that there is a cap-bracket on top of the support which attaches to the underside of the top joist. . . it would look just like the bracket that attaches the support to the slab itself.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

what is the best type of connector to use for the post to concrete connection? planning on doing a design similar to the one in the video, no connection to house.


strong tie connector (is this ok?)


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

ok here's a design i'd like to try.....but I need to get this on paper.......need some help


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## Snav (Aug 20, 2009)

http://www.strongtie.com/deckcenter/index.html?source=category

Under the category listed as "Beam to Post" there are a variety of brackets that are called "caps" - these are for the top of vertical supports. Choose it based on the support size and the beam size, as well as the location of the bracket (inside/outside - where exactly does it need to support the beam overtop, center or off-center, etc).

I built our deck without base or cap brackets - the only brackets I used were joist hangars. I used 5x5's for the posts and the beams hang on the side of the posts with lag bolts. My design, however, exceeded code (which isn't strict around here) - but I know that if I lived elsewhere I'd be required to use the brackets, which would have been no big deal to purchase anywhere and install (and can be installed in the future if things change)

You don't have to be classic with your deck, either, if you're designing your own you can be as creative as you want and personalize it for your needs.
I refused to just build a box deck. Several reasons - for one, our yard is huge and a box deck looked good on paper but really was tiny in comparison. I needed to bring it into the yard but was limited by my budget. I, also, didn't want much of the deck to be near the house - I've yet to install gutters and always thought it dumb to have a deck next to a wall which would detour that area from being used - such as when it rains or when hornets decide to invade the soffets, etc. I, also, didn't want kids all up in "my space" when I'm outside tanning and so on.
To solve these things I designed it with a bridge from the doorway that extends out and away from the house - with a step down to a larger deck for chair-lounging and at the other side is a step-up medium sized deck for adults-only.
There is an alcove dirt area next to the house and I've turned that into a smoke-corner for our grill and so forth, complete with a wind shield and overhang.

Now - back to your deck picture.
There are several things I see that you need to keep in mind and consider. #1 - in the photo the deck boards (which are called 5-quarter or 5/4 board) are on an angle and the angle turns the other direction in the middle.

This means that their joists probably run in direction of the door to the step. There is also a beam running left-right in center (which is likely supported in the center with a support post) so the diagonal beams can be supported at the inside where direction changes.

They likely used traditional step-forms that are pre-cut and then just nicely boxed off the steps to conceal it.

The upper deck overhangs on the front (this is called cantilever) - however, it's not a true cantilever because they have installed supports from the lower portion of the deck/step to the upper deck. You don't need this. If you double your beam that extends out past your post you can properly cantilever your deck (how much depends on the size post/beam used)

Hope that helps some - I'm out of time  Good luck, read up on decking and crunch some numbers. Sketch out some ideas on paper.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

trying to get the space and my ideas on paper

noticed a typo i meant 16'9" (not 16 X 9)












after watching the bob villa video above, i put together this drawing, showing the connection to the concrete. 

in the video, it looks like he built a frame using 2 X 6s, attached joist hangers to the rim joists and ran them across. there was a beam in the center (a girder?) to prevent the joists from sagging. can i run 2 X 6 joists 16' 9". I've never worked with wood of this size. 

I have about 10" from the slab to my door. The drawing above takes me to 9 3/8 (3 1/8 + 5 1/ 2 + 3/4 for decking)


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Don't mean to butt in, but need more info. Where are you located and what is the frost depth? How thick is the slab and does it have a suitable foundation? Is the vinyl sided bump out an add on or part of the original house (foundation)?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

please butt in 

I am in SE PA

not sure of frost depth...

the slab measures 16" from the ground

i am not certain the slab has a foundation...when i examine it, the larger portion seems to be "sitting on" a slightly smaller section. is there anything else i can look for?

the part of the addition where the windows are is original...from the door to the left (you can see a different roof) is newer.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

My concern is that both parts are just on slabs and will move independently with frost. This could ruin your new wooden deck or house. Can you check if there is a record of previous permits or inspections? 

I'd seriously consider demo the slab and start from scratch.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Hey Joetab,

Have you checked with your city (or county) to see if there are permits required and/or codes. I know a free standing deck (ie not attached to the house) in my area as long as it is less than 1 feet off the ground require no permits.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

4747

i know the patio was built in '93....it has held up very well. no permits are on record for the work, although I happen to know the person who did the job. He actually lived in my home before the previous owner. He did my front porch concrete work.


I guess I can call him. What should I ask him?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

In my State a deck that low to the ground is considered landscaping and not a structure, no permit is required.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

i called today to check...haven't gotten in touch with anyone.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

here's another drawing, a bit crude. but good practice for me, as i think about the project. this is a for a basic deck, all straight lines. if i am going to do something more than that i need to figure out the basic design first. thanks for the help  


SEE REVISED BELOW


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Just make sure you can build a deck that close to the property line
My area you need at least 15', some areas require more


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

scuba,


not sure how much of this thread you've seen, but would you have concerns about putting a deck like this on the patio (pictured above)? it was built in '93, appears to me to be in good shape.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

so after i find out about permits, have my plans, everything i read says i need to establish layout lines so that everything is square and i can mark where my posts go.


what is the best way to approach this when working on a patio like i am?

i was thinking i would put a screw into the concrete, tie a masons line and go from there. i can pull the string to a batter board that i place on the grass, beyond the patio. so on the outer two corners, away from the house, i can place batter boards. the two corners closest to the house will require a string attached to concrete or to the house.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I dislike building with wood when I can put down patio stones/blocks
But it would be a pain to pull that concrete up & dispose of it
Other option would be to fill in the grass area & put patio stone down over the whole thing

I would build it free standing not attached to the house
I would attach it to the cement pad for stability
Just use a few L shape brackets secured to wood & pad

I'd also put PT 2x4's directly on the concrete, in a grid
The less room under the deck for critters the better
Add one post in the corner of the grass/dirt where needed


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

*deck layout, squaring tips*

i am in the planning phase of building a deck onto this concrete patio












http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/first-deck-build-need-some-help-67742/
_2 threads on same topic merged_
_Moderator _

can you offer some tips about getting a square layout when working on a patio like i am?

i was thinking i would put a screw into the concrete, tie a masons line and go from there. i can pull the string to a batter board that i place on the grass, beyond the patio. so on the outer two corners, away from the house, i can place batter boards. the two corners closest to the house will require a string attached to concrete or to the house.

i've also considered attaching mason's line to cut 4X 4 blocks, by attaching a screw to them. i would then have the ability to move the blocks to establish square layout lines. any help is appreciated greatly


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

revised plans











ok...just found out i must attach the deck to the house according to local codes


I only have about 10" from concrete to bottom of door.....Can I use a 2 X 6 or a 2X 8?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Personally, I would simply build up a wood framed deck to the level you desire just under the door threshold, make a step down to the existing larger part of the concrete (under the window), tile that part, then continue the deck on out at the higher level to cover the 4'x8' dirt/grass area.

It doesn't have to all be made of wood, and the concrete part will better lend itself to a firepit or a BBQ.

All this is based on the possibility that you cannot legally go back any farther??? (Someone mentioned that)

Any benches and railing are gingerbread that you can design in anywhere.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Here's one we're in the process of renovating right now.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

thanks Willie....


what program makes those drawings?


how would you secure the frame to the concrete?


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

rocket,


did you finish the deck pictured above? i'd love to see pics.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

joetab24 said:


> thanks Willie....
> 
> 
> what program makes those drawings?
> ...


I used the FREE version of SketchUp.

The way it was explained to you in the other thread about this deck will work pretty well.

Included here is another thought for that part of the house around the corner.


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## TheCamper (Dec 4, 2009)

I suggest you visit the local municipality and see what the requirements are for a building permit and if a building code applies. Even if the current concrete has performed well for 17 years if it does not comply with the code for frost depth then it should be removed (or underpinned or if the code provides for, you would have to get in soil mechanics to certify that the soil will not hold water and therefore not freeze and heave, it will be easier and cheaper to rip out). If a code applies find out the live load the deck needs to support and if the deck has to be constructed to resist any specific wind speed (uplist). That will guide you in your design. In the Bob Villa video I did not see how they attached the rim joists to the posts but that floating deck is a bit unusual in that the video said that the property is in a flood zone. The local code probably adopts FEMA guidelines and so the deck was being designed so as not to cause damage to the house in a flood condition. Simpson has a great many connectors that work great and you can likely get specific connector recommendations from the local lumber yard. They will stock what is commonly used in your area.


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

just to add to the thread i found this pic of a patio deck w/ sleepers


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## joetab24 (Apr 10, 2009)

after all that, don't think I have my wife's blessing (ok...permission) on this project.

I did clean up the space and may consider concrete staining down the road. in the short term i am going to power wash the concrete and fill in the post holes.


cleaned up, no pergola


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