# new bath tub installatioon question about plumbing



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

I would be more concerned with what is in the way under the floor. Only way your going to know is open the floor.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> I would be more concerned with what is in the way under the floor. Only way your going to know is open the floor.


i am sorry what do you mean? under the floor of the tub? you mean what could be in the way for the new tub/piping to go in? 

the picture shows plywood screwed in the back of the wall hiding the plumbing. so i can just open up that board and get to the pipes. is that what you mean?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Yes thats what I mean. Floor Joist are a problem.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Yes thats what I mean. Floor Joist are a problem.


ah ok i see. well i figure if i use the same size tub, the plumbing should all line up as is, right


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Main incoming water needs to be shut off as well as the valve that's supposed to be on cold water line on the water heater.
Why not just have that tub refinished instead of replaced?
Last one I had done has lasted 10 years and still looks like new.
All that tiles going to have to be busted out to get the tub out.
All those old corroded parts can be replaced.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

joecaption said:


> Main incoming water needs to be shut off as well as the valve that's supposed to be on cold water line on the water heater.
> Why not just have that tub refinished instead of replaced?
> Last one I had done has lasted 10 years and still looks like new.
> All that tiles going to have to be busted out to get the tub out.
> All those old corroded parts can be replaced.


joe! good to see ya in here. so you are saying to just reglaze it?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Main incoming water needs to be shut off as well as the valve that's supposed to be on cold water line on the water heater.
Why not just have that tub refinished instead of replaced?
Last one I had done has lasted 10 years and still looks like new.
All that tiles going to have to be busted out to get the tub out.
All those old corroded parts can be replaced.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Different tubs have different centers usually you will need a new trap and tub waste if you replace the tub and some minor plumbing to be done with the drain.

Have you looked at the sterling tub shower units. They come with walls and make a great replacement because you kill bad walls and tub at the same time.

http://www.efaucets.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=71222100-47&ca=prgb&CA_6C15C=406668722

If your doing this I would also replace the tub shower valve with a new pressure balanced single handle valve.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Different tubs have different centers usually you will need a new trap and tub waste if you replace the tub and some minor plumbing to be done with the drain.
> 
> Have you looked at the sterling tub shower units. They come with walls and make a great replacement because you kill bad walls and tub at the same time.
> 
> ...


thank you. yea i will totally replace the trap and other fittings. my concern is with installing, not the items. as far as i can tell, there is a little play, so i should be able to wiggle the new drain into the existing line right?

the tile is in good shape, so we are trying to keep it instead of putting a surround over it. but yes that product would be nice. 

whats the advantage of a pressure balanced single hand valve


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

federer said:


> ah ok i see. well i figure if i use the same size tub, the plumbing should all line up as is, right


Definitely not. :whistling2:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Basically he just means your valve is probably old and may need to be replaced before long anyway. You didn't show it, but if it's the same age as everything else looks, it's probably an older style compression faucet and those are prone to leaks.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Alan said:


> Definitely not. :whistling2:


i dont mean exactly. i mean it will have enough room to wiggle to fit it. the drain is usually center on a tub, and its not like it will be 60inches from the edge. it will be like 6-10inches or whatever. or i can take old tub out and find a new tub to fit it right? or am i missing something. thank you


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

federer said:


> i dont mean exactly. i mean it will have enough room to wiggle to fit it. the drain is usually center on a tub, and its not like it will be 60inches from the edge. it will be like 6-10inches or whatever. or i can take old tub out and find a new tub to fit it right? or am i missing something. thank you


Your drain assembly could easily be 2-3 inches off in more than one dimension depending on the tub you choose and the position of the trap.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Alan said:


> Your drain assembly could easily be 2-3 inches off in more than one dimension depending on the tub you choose and the position of the trap.


hmm i guess you are right. 3inches would be a lot. should i find a tub to fit it then?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Open up the wall behind the tub and run the new drain to the tub as required. Use a transition coupling if materials are not plastic to adapt. Proflex band or Mission brand.

You remove tub then get drain within trap swing of new trap install tub install tub waste then install trap. Piece of cake!!!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Open up the wall behind the tub and run the new drain to the tub as required. Use a transition coupling if materials are not plastic to adapt. Proflex band or Mission brand.
> 
> You remove tub then get drain within trap swing of new trap install tub install tub waste then install trap. Piece of cake!!!


yea i am going to open up the wall tomorrow and see exactly whats going on. thanks for the brands to look for!

i read that you are supposed to install the drain and overflow on tub before sliding it into place.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

federer said:


> i read that you are supposed to install the drain and overflow on tub before sliding it into place.


That isn't always possible for example on a slab foundation or on a second floor installation. Sometimes you have to set the waste/overflow kit and p-trap before sliding the tub in. It's a little difficult to measure sometimes, but saves the effort of trying to set a p-trap after the fact in a crowded hole, or having to open a ceiling to do so.

You should TEST FIT the waste/overflow kit that you've assembled on the tub in the very least.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

I always just installed them from the drain side. You could have a friend give you a hand installing the waste.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

guess what guys? i got updated pics! it looks like good news. what do you guys think?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*album*

so i went ahead and pulled open the panel today! here is what i found.

please see here for album:
http://imgur.com/a/71ZQg#0


so it looks like i do have individual shut off valves to both cold and hot water line? 

another good news is the drain is only about 6-8inches or so deep under the tub. i reached down and was able to touch the drain easily. which should mean i can install the new drain/overflow assembly on the new tub, and slide it into place right? 

my only concern is i am not sure if the subfloor looks ok. also, can anyone tell what kind of tub this is? it's got a soft muted sound when you tap it. the pipes also are copper that tie into pvc trap. 

anything i am missing here? 

i do need to demo the tile wall though, which would be a pain.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Alan said:


> That isn't always possible for example on a slab foundation or on a second floor installation. Sometimes you have to set the waste/overflow kit and p-trap before sliding the tub in. It's a little difficult to measure sometimes, but saves the effort of trying to set a p-trap after the fact in a crowded hole, or having to open a ceiling to do so.
> 
> You should TEST FIT the waste/overflow kit that you've assembled on the tub in the very least.


i got better pics today. what do you think? i think i can fit the new drain and overflow before sliding in teh new tub


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

That one on the right looks kind of strange. But other than that, yes - looks like you're in luck with the shutoffs.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> That one on the right looks kind of strange. But other than that, yes - looks like you're in luck with the shutoffs.


kind of strange? can you explain please


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

You have a very workable set up.
As to the type of tub its hard to say. But you will need to demo some tile to lnstall a new tub


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> You have a very workable set up.
> As to the type of tub its hard to say. But you will need to demo some tile to lnstall a new tub


yes! a mod!!! thank you so much for your input. yea the tile has to go. any other tips you have in mind? thank you again


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

here is my plan so far:

1. shut off water at both valves. disconnect drain and overflow. pull old tub out
2. saw through pipe at trap/tee. measure new distance for new tub, and install new drain and overflow.
3. measure height from floor for stud so i can nail for the new tub flange to sit on for support
4. slide tub into place. rest on stud. 
5. reach down and connect new drain/overflow to trap with new fittings, etc.
6. turn water back on to test

i didnt mention the tile demo as i am concered more with the plumbing aspect than the rest of the work needed. i can drywall/tile after i finish this first!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

just adding another for those who dont want to go to album


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

few more noob questions:

1.what kind of tub should i get? i want something lighter/easy to maintain. not cast iron

2. can i use pvc for the new connections or stick with copper?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

What you have is a porcelein on steel. It's a bottom line tub. 



http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...src=17588969&gclid=COio1_GyjMACFQsyaQodq4kAbA


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> What you have is a porcelein on steel. It's a bottom line tub.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...src=17588969&gclid=COio1_GyjMACFQsyaQodq4kAbA


oh cool. i am thinking about picking acrylic for the new one. what do you think


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Personally when I did my bathroom there years ago I couldn't t wait to get rid of the acrylic tub and surround that the prior owner had put in. It was hard to clean, and over time Becam dull and tired looking. I replaced with a nice Kohler cast iron tub. It looks great, cleans like a dream, doesn't bend, flex etc. I got it for 450 bucks from a plumbing supply with my allowance from my contractor. That was 120 bucks cheaper than the American Standard cast iron at Home Depot . The kohler in my mind had a much better fisnish than the American Standard.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Some people confuse acrylic with fiberglass. Fiberglass is normally the cheapest one, and scratches and dulls more easily.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jimn01 said:


> Personally when I did my bathroom there years ago I couldn't t wait to get rid of the acrylic tub and surround that the prior owner had put in. It was hard to clean, and over time Becam dull and tired looking. I replaced with a nice Kohler cast iron tub. It looks great, cleans like a dream, doesn't bend, flex etc. I got it for 450 bucks from a plumbing supply with my allowance from my contractor. That was 120 bucks cheaper than the American Standard cast iron at Home Depot . The kohler in my mind had a much better fisnish than the American Standard.


thank you. you bring up good point. what brands are good? kohler? amercian standard? does it really matter? 

the only issue is cast iron are super heavy right? i do want something with better finish that will last. they make acrylic ones that are high end dont they?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Cast iron are super heavy. They do make good acrylic tubs. It's possible jim was thinking of fiberglass, but who knows....


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> Cast iron are super heavy. They do make good acrylic tubs. It's possible jim was thinking of fiberglass, but who knows....


haha you know what i am stupid. somehow i thought you 2 were teh same person making 2 posts right after the other. sorry!

yea i am trying to stay away from cast iron due to this being DIY


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

how do you find the model of tub? is there a tag somewhere?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

One thing you should plan on when taking out the old tub is that the floor may be rotted in places if the tub leaked. Plan on possibly replacing of reinforcing the floor. There are plenty of decent light weight tubs on the market. One that I considered was the American Standard Americast (R) tub. I can;t recommend it, I cqan only say that I considered it. I would say the difference in brands is that some of the established brands like A.S. and Kohler are more likely to stand behind their product. 

Here is a like that shows my journey http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/jims-downstairs-bathroom-project-66655/.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Jim F said:


> One thing you should plan on when taking out the old tub is that the floor may be rotted in places if the tub leaked. Plan on possibly replacing of reinforcing the floor. There are plenty of decent light weight tubs on the market. One that I considered was the American Standard Americast (R) tub. I can;t recommend it, I cqan only say that I considered it. I would say the difference in brands is that some of the established brands like A.S. and Kohler are more likely to stand behind their product.
> 
> Here is a like that shows my journey http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/jims-downstairs-bathroom-project-66655/.


yep! thats the only thing i havent seen yet. the subfloor. i hope it wont be bad. worst case, i will just have to buy new sheets to put down. nothing difficult like plumbing:laughing:

thanks for the link i will take a look


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

another quick question please:

based on the pictures, for my new install, i plan on using pvc. do i need any special tools to make the connection to the existing pipes? or is a wrench and putty enough? since i am not using copper i dont need to flux and solder right?


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> another quick question please:
> 
> based on the pictures, for my new install, i plan on using pvc. do i need any special tools to make the connection to the existing pipes? or is a wrench and putty enough? since i am not using copper i dont need to flux and solder right?


Your existing pipes are already PVC. If you mean ABS, the black pipe, a screw connection doesn't use any kind of sealer.

A glue connection for PVC to PVC needs a glue and primer combination.

To glue ABS to PVC, you need whats called a transition glue.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Transition glue is not code approved. For good reason.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Ghostmaker said:


> For good reason.


:huh::huh::huh:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Stick with copper---for that tub mixer valve you will only need a 10 foot length and a hand full of fittings---

I can't offer a good tub choice--I usually use cast iron---


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

We are not gluing plastic. We are solvent welding plastic. ABS and PVC are entirely two different animals. There is no glue that has passed test and meets the standards to be used to mix the different plastics.

My personal feeling is if your not intending to do the job correctly then do not bother doing it at all. Shortcuts cost people real money and do real damage.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> Your existing pipes are already PVC. If you mean ABS, the black pipe, a screw connection doesn't use any kind of sealer.
> 
> A glue connection for PVC to PVC needs a glue and primer combination.
> 
> To glue ABS to PVC, you need whats called a transition glue.





Ghostmaker said:


> Transition glue is not code approved. For good reason.





oh'mike said:


> Stick with copper---for that tub mixer valve you will only need a 10 foot length and a hand full of fittings---
> 
> I can't offer a good tub choice--I usually use cast iron---





Ghostmaker said:


> We are not gluing plastic. We are solvent welding plastic. ABS and PVC are entirely two different animals. There is no glue that has passed test and meets the standards to be used to mix the different plastics.
> 
> My personal feeling is if your not intending to do the job correctly then do not bother doing it at all. Shortcuts cost people real money and do real damage.


thanks guys: was away from desk yesterday out shopping for a tub.

pugsy: what black abs pipe are you referring to? i am sorry i dont see it in the pics. the overflow and waste is copper, and it runs into the pvc trap. what did i miss in the pic?

mike: if i use copper i have to get a torch and solder? i rather avoid that if i can so i dont need to buy propane and all that. much easier to glue pvc isn't it?

i do want to do this project right. so for the pvc, what glue and primer is best?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Ghostmaker said:


> We are not gluing plastic. We are solvent welding plastic. ABS and PVC are entirely two different animals. There is no glue that has passed test and meets the standards to be used to mix the different plastics.
> 
> My personal feeling is if your not intending to do the job correctly then do not bother doing it at all. Shortcuts cost people real money and do real damage.


We are required by local jurisdiction to use pressure pipe for sewer pump discharge lines. I know it's stupid, but this forces us to use a transition glue where we change from pressure line to gravity.

I suppose the only other way to do it is to screw two threaded adapters together, but i'd be afraid that the threads would crack before the glue joint would fail.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

wow you guys are experts....


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You will still need a torch to solder on the threaded fitting in order to switch to plastic---

If you aren't skilled in soldering,we can teach you----


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> You will still need a torch to solder on the threaded fitting in order to switch to plastic---
> 
> If you aren't skilled in soldering,we can teach you----


oh no! i was hoping to just be able to screw it on. yea i have never soldered pipe before. what do i need to buy? i know i need to flux the inside and outside, and then heat it up before i solder. please help mike!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so going back to the pictures, if you see below, the waste and overflow is copper, but they only connect to the trap which is plastic. so why do i need to do any soldering?? cant i just replace the copper waste/overflow with new pvc??


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok doing some research...is this a good guide to connect the pipes?

*1. Measure and cut.* To ensure that the pipe will be fully seated in its fittings, measure the distance between the shoulders on the fittings at each end of the pipe. Transfer that measurement to the pipe and make a straight cut with a hacksaw. Scrape the inside of the cut smooth with a utility knife. 

*2. Prime.* Spread cement primer over the outside of the pipe and the inside of the fitting where they'll overlap. The primer softens and cleans the plastic. 

*3. Dry fit.* Assemble everything to make sure the pipe is the correct length. On fittings such as elbows, position is critical, so make a reference mark from the pipe onto the fitting. 

*4. Glue.* Apply the cement to the primed areas on the inside of the fitting and to the outside of the pipe. 

*5. Push and twist.* Slide the pipe into the fitting until it bottoms out against the fitting's shoulder, then give it a ¼-inch turn to spread the glue and speed its cure. If you're attaching a fitting, push it in with the reference marks slightly out of register, and turn the fitting to align the marks. Hold for 30 seconds, then wipe up any excess cement with a dry rag.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> pugsy: what black abs pipe are you referring to? i am sorry i dont see it in the pics. the overflow and waste is copper, and it runs into the pvc trap. what did i miss in the pic?



My apologies. When you mentioned PVC drain and overflow, I assumed ABS as I haven't seen any PVC tub drain systems up here north of the border. All ABS in our box stores. Or, my memory just sucks, ha.
Googling shows PVC systems quite readily available.

Nice to have the selection you do south of the border.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

A couple of thoughts---the PVC instructions mentioned 'dry fitting'---that is not great advice---here's why--the fittings need to have the PVC cement on them in order to bottom out on the pipe---if you 'dry fit' a long assembly--your run will get shorter as you glue them up----

Tools and supplies for soldering---a propane torch(Map gas is nice to have,but propane will do the job---sand paper or wire brush type cleaner--paste flux (I like Oatey #5) and solder-(Oatey Easy flow is good)-flux brush-
A quality tubing cutter (Rigid --Imperial)--for you a shorty might be best --

Cut pipe with the tubing cutter--
clean the pipe and inside of the fitting
Brush on a thin coat of flux--on the pipe and inside of the fittings
Heat the pipe with the torch
touch the solder on the 'cold ' side of the joint(opposite of the torched side)
When the solder flows--push and watch it fill the joint.
leave it alone until the solder has set---while still warn,wipe the joint with a damp cloth to remove excess flux 

Another tip---if your mixer valve can be solder fitted==remove the plastic cartridge first---

If threaded fittings are needed---solder those onto a pipe--cool well--then use pipe dope and tape and screw them in.

If you must solder near a screws fitting----wrap the fitting in a wet rag to keep it cool.
Expansion of the threaded fitting from soldering often causes a leak---so keep those cool.--Mike----


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> A couple of thoughts---the PVC instructions mentioned 'dry fitting'---that is not great advice---here's why--the fittings need to have the PVC cement on them in order to bottom out on the pipe---if you 'dry fit' a long assembly--your run will get shorter as you glue them up----
> 
> Tools and supplies for soldering---a propane torch(Map gas is nice to have,but propane will do the job---sand paper or wire brush type cleaner--paste flux (I like Oatey #5) and solder-(Oatey Easy flow is good)-flux brush-
> A quality tubing cutter (Rigid --Imperial)--for you a shorty might be best --
> ...


mike! thanks so much man. so, wheres a good place to get a torch? you still think i need to solder, even using PVC?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> My apologies. When you mentioned PVC drain and overflow, I assumed ABS as I haven't seen any PVC tub drain systems up here north of the border. All ABS in our box stores. Or, my memory just sucks, ha.
> Googling shows PVC systems quite readily available.
> 
> Nice to have the selection you do south of the border.


no not at all thank you for reading and sharing your input. i appreciate it


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I was telling you about soldering so you can change the mixing valve---there is no need for soldering on the drain and P-trap.

A simple torch can be purchased at any Big Box store ---you don't need a professional model for one job--


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> I was telling you about soldering so you can change the mixing valve---there is no need for soldering on the drain and P-trap.
> 
> A simple torch can be purchased at any Big Box store ---you don't need a professional model for one job--


:laughing: i was confused....lol i am so noob. 

so um...whats mixing valve? lol


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so my last question before i dig into this: i can buy those pvc kits from the box store right? they come adjustable so you can cut it to the length you need? or do i need to buy the drain and overflow individually


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

When changing out a bath tub--most people will also replace the water valve(mixer valve) and the spout and shower head---Moen and Delta are good choices.

The drain set? Yes, you will find a kit at the Home Depot--will contain PVC drain shoe--T--and over flow--along with the chrome stopper and over flow cover--you supply the 1 1/2" PVC pipe---


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

There are basically 2 types of drain/overflow assemblies.
One is a plastic solvent weld set up
The other uses compression nuts- like yours. By code these need to be accessible through an access panel if covered in a ceiling. 
The first type does not as it's joints are glued.
Both are readily available


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> There are basically 2 types of drain/overflow assemblies.
> One is a plastic solvent weld set up
> The other uses compression nuts- like yours. By code these need to be accessible through an access panel if covered in a ceiling.
> The first type does not as it's joints are glued.
> Both are readily available


thank you. which type is better?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> When changing out a bath tub--most people will also replace the water valve(mixer valve) and the spout and shower head---Moen and Delta are good choices.
> 
> The drain set? Yes, you will find a kit at the Home Depot--will contain PVC drain shoe--T--and over flow--along with the chrome stopper and over flow cover--you supply the 1 1/2" PVC pipe---


oh haha gotcha! so i should do the valve too. guess thats going on the shopping list. what kind of valve do i need? its a specific type right?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Any name brand pressure balanced temperature control single handle valve. That does not mean home depots in house brand.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Any name brand pressure balanced temperature control single handle valve. That does not mean home depots in house brand.


its one of those single handle ones. so i have to buy the same since its only one pipe?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Buy a Delta or a Moen valve. Both have lifetime warranty.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

these things are expensive...i went shopping for a bit. cant i just get new trim and be done? so kohler is not as good as moen/delta huh


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Kohler's good. But do they still make trim for your valve? You need the valve model to verify that.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> Kohler's good. But do they still make trim for your valve? You need the valve model to verify that.


thank you. where can i find the model name?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Take a picture of the valve--sent it to Kohler--their customer service is pretty good---

Unfortunately--a trim kit costs almost as much as an entire new valve and trim set.

I suggest you use Moen or Delta---Kohler has discontinued some of it's repair cartridges---you might be in trouble if the old valve ever needs parts---I was able to find a cartridge at my supply house for only $185

Much cheaper that the cheapest one the customer could locate---no--skip Kohler--


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> Take a picture of the valve--sent it to Kohler--their customer service is pretty good---
> 
> Unfortunately--a trim kit costs almost as much as an entire new valve and trim set.
> 
> ...


thanks mike! no kohler for me then.

so about the soldering then....since its my first time, i am worried about burning the studs and such. its not a big space i am working with here....any pro tips you can share for a noob?:laughing:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Use flat metal electrical box covers as shields---they are cheap and have handy holes for hanging on the studs----

Use Map gas so you can heat things up faster than propane---

make up the assemblies and solder them before you place them against the studs--

A torch with a long flexible hose will make it easier to get into tight spots so you can aim the flame away from the studs.

Practice---I seldom scorch the studs any more--

Always have a fire extinguisher and a bucket of water handy---


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Sand the outside of the pipe and clean the inside of the fitting with wire brush.
Flux the outside of the pipe and inside of the fittings.
Assemble the entire job.

Apply heat to the bottom of the joint Plumbing solder to the top once it melts and drips once remove heat and move to next joint.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-1-7-oz-No-5-Lead-Free-Solder-Paste-Flux-53017/100162115

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-4-oz-Silver-Solder-Wire-Solder-333544/203507480

It also helps to spray the surrounding burnable area with water and keep a fire extinguisher handy just in case you start something big.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I have been there and done that as a DIYer. As such I have nothing to add to what these guys are telling you. Just listen to them and do it right or not at all.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> Use flat metal electrical box covers as shields---they are cheap and have handy holes for hanging on the studs----
> 
> Use Map gas so you can heat things up faster than propane---
> 
> ...


thanks mike! this may be the week i take the plunge!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Sand the outside of the pipe and clean the inside of the fitting with wire brush.
> Flux the outside of the pipe and inside of the fittings.
> Assemble the entire job.
> 
> ...


thank you for the links! i also need to get pvc cement and primer for the new pvc too


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yikes. update! sorry for dragging my feet here. i went and demoed out the bathtub finally. 

so it looks like the valve is still in good shape? do i really need to replace it? what do you all think now that i got pictures. 

also, how do i get the stupid screw off the trim? i took one out but the other is stuck behind the handle and i cant get enough leverage. i might just saw off the trim plate....:furious:

ah but i forgot...the trim probably is designed to fit the valve. so a new trim wont fit. or would it?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Remove the handle---you need an Allen wrench---then remove the screw.

Of course the valve 'looks like it's in good shape'---the parts that wear out are inside---

Just kidding---that old one could be rebuilt for about $30.00--(and a new trim kit$$)however,it is not up to todays standards--not equipped with anti-scald and pressure balancing--Your call---


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

For the amount of work to have to change out the valve after the new tiles are in, if it were me, I would change it.

Of course, this attitude of mine is how simple renovation jobs have snowballing costs $$$... :whistling2:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I've been building bathrooms for a living for over 20 years--I can not ever remember a time that we left an old valve behind the new tile.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I know new faucets are expensive, but I think it would be crazy to leave the old valve in. That would be like taking a car engine apart, and leaving in a 100,000 mile timing belt. Timing belts are cheap compared to the effort to get to them, and the problems that could happen if they fail.

Plus, you get a nice new faucet.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> I know new faucets are expensive, but I think it would be crazy to leave the old valve in. That would be like taking a car engine apart, and leaving in a 100,000 mile timing belt. Timing belts are cheap compared to the effort to get to them, and the problems that could happen if they fail.
> 
> Plus, you get a nice new faucet.


That would be true if only if you left the original cartridge in.
The valve body is in good shape and will last- it really is just a glorified brass fitting.
IMO-replace the cartridge/trim and the valve is as good as new. However, it is old and not to current code standards and removing the cartridge may not be easy- although replacements are readily available. It is really your call. Go look at some new Deltas.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh man....you guys are the best...let me think about this for a lil bit.....i feel like back in the day the copper was way better quality, and i am short on time and budget. but at the same time, like you guys pointed out, it would be such a waste to not get new since the wall is open now.....sigh


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

alright gents. thanks to you all suggestions, lets make it happen! so, how do i go about shopping for a new valve? is home depot a ok place to buy one? and are they all standard sizes? how much copper should i buy?

edit: is there a way to increase water pressure too when i replace the valve?

edit2: it looks like a lot of these valves are brass? is that ok to solder with copper? dont i need a special flux ?

yea i am in over my head on this one lol


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

whats the difference between something like 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Delta-Mu...iver-Stops-R10000-UNWS/100449820?N=5yc1vZc69r 
vs
http://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-1-2...ume-Control-Valve-3510/100041251?N=5yc1vZc69r


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

also, it looks like i need to take the cartridge out before i solder so it doesnt melt?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok just watched a bunch of videos. so to do the valve, i am going to be soldering 8 times total. 4 times to make the assembly, and 4 more times to solder it to the existing pipes. so i need to buy copper couplings too right?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

The other thing to consider is if the old valve is on the same center as the new tub. Looks rather bad when they are not in alignment. Yes buy couplings that have indents so pipe can't go through them to the other side. DO not buy slip couplings.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> The other thing to consider is if the old valve is on the same center as the new tub. Looks rather bad when they are not in alignment. Yes buy couplings that have indents so pipe can't go through them to the other side. DO not buy slip couplings.


fark....i didnt pick out the new tub yet...i forgot about that.

another issue i just noticed. on the old valve the copper line on the hot side is super short..how do i go about cutting it out? let me post a pic


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

more noob questions:

1. do use type L or M copper?
2. how do i shop for the new valve? i see a ton of choices


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

alright guys i got this!!!

after doing more reading i am going with this
http://www.amazon.com/Faucet-R10000...ubst_hi_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0NRQ66B4SXDDR044MPYW
it comes with stops built in so i can turn off water here too if i need to fix something. what do you guys think?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Well, not sure why you don't just buy a new faucet and be done with it. Get a style you like, and the valve is included. I'm not really sure why you'd buy one of these, but maybe a plumber can explain if there's any advantage.

Also, if you don't like working in copper, then work in PEX.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> Well, not sure why you don't just buy a new faucet and be done with it. Get a style you like, and the valve is included. I'm not really sure why you'd buy one of these, but maybe a plumber can explain if there's any advantage.
> 
> Also, if you don't like working in copper, then work in PEX.


oh? from my shopping they come seperate. the valve is a standalone product. the faucet only comes with the trim and cartridge. or am i looking in wrong places:laughing:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

You're looking in the wrong places probably. Normally the valve (or "rough in") comes with it unless it specifically says "trim kit". These all come with valves.

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Bath-Bathroom-Faucets-Tub-Shower-Faucets/N-5yc1vZbrfc


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

for example looking at this
http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-B...?s=kitchen-bath&ie=UTF8&qid=1410566581&sr=1-5
it says 
For use with MultiChoice Universal rough valve body


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Yes, that specifically says "Trim Only". You're not looking for that. Unless you just find one that you love for which you can only from the Trim Only kit.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ah so amazon breaks it down i think. home depot has it built in....weird huh


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Just stick to a name brand like Delta or Moen make sure it is pressure balanced temperature control for code reasons. Integral stops are nice also.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

what about the ones that have 2 handles to control temp and volume?


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> what about the ones that have 2 handles to control temp and volume?


It's 2014. 

It's well past 1975, ha.

I thought the same thing when I installed my new faucet about the volume and have found in a tub, there is no need to go slower than full blast. 

The shower was going a little fast, so I drilled a small hole in a dime and stuck it in the head to slow down the flow.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

that valve rough-in you posted above is a good valve from Delta and accepts either single or dual handle cartridges (on a dual, the temp selector is stacked on the volume knob). The trim kit you posted is for single handle only and does not include the cartridge, so it would need to be purchased as well. We used to install both types until we got too many complaints from people that they wanted pressure control at all temps because they had small children or an elderly person that had sensitive skin. Eventually, we only started offering the 1700 series (dual handle) to eliminate any concerns. It really just depends what your needs and price concerns are.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

The double handles are actually kind of classy looking. Personal preference. Some people don't want to fudge with 2 knobs, but it does give you ultimate temp and pressure control. Personally I don't like a shower that only goes full blast. Some don't care.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> edit2: it looks like a lot of these valves are brass? is that ok to solder with copper? dont i need a special flux ?
> 
> yea i am in over my head on this one lol


You don't need special flux for brass. Standard plumbing soldering techniques work.
You can get the valves with iron pipe threads- then use sharkbite fittings if you don't want to solder. 



federer said:


> also, it looks like i need to take the cartridge out before i solder so it doesnt melt?


YES



federer said:


> ok just watched a bunch of videos. so to do the valve, i am going to be soldering 8 times total. 4 times to make the assembly, and 4 more times to solder it to the existing pipes. so i need to buy copper couplings too right?


I typically prefab the valve as much as possible before setting in the wall- new shower riser, new tub spout stub out and h&c connections.


federer said:


> another issue i just noticed. on the old valve the copper line on the hot side is super short..how do i go about cutting it out? let me post a pic


I would connect to the risers(vertical) Offset as needed.


federer said:


> more noob questions:
> 
> 1. do use type L or M copper?


L if possible


federer said:


> what about the ones that have 2 handles to control temp and volume?


 My wife wishes she had volume control. Makes cleaning the tub easier she says
Also, read wrangler's reply below. He makes a very good argument for choosing Delta. Their 2 handle is actually built on one stem. and the temp setting is saved when you turn off the flow.



wrangler said:


> that valve rough-in you posted above is a good valve from Delta and accepts either single or dual handle cartridges (on a dual, the temp selector is stacked on the volume knob). The trim kit you posted is for single handle only and does not include the cartridge, so it would need to be purchased as well. We used to install both types until we got too many complaints from people that they wanted pressure control at all temps because they had small children or an elderly person that had sensitive skin. Eventually, we only started offering the 1700 series (dual handle) to eliminate any concerns. It really just depends what your needs and price concerns are.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

federer said:


> what about the ones that have 2 handles to control temp and volume?


 As long as the valve is ASSE 1016 compliant. Pressure balance prevents scalding ever been in a shower when someone flushes the toilet?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> It's 2014.
> 
> It's well past 1975, ha.
> 
> ...


:laughing:good point sir!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> You don't need special flux for brass. Standard plumbing soldering techniques work.
> You can get the valves with iron pipe threads- then use sharkbite fittings if you don't want to solder.
> 
> 
> ...


wow sir thank you so much for the reply!
i read that you shouldnt use sharkbite behind walls because it leaks eventually. not true?
yea i am going to make the 5 connections before i place in wall. thanks for teh tip!

how do i connect to teh risers???:huh:

delta it is!

edit-looks like home depot sells type M not L


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

wrangler said:


> that valve rough-in you posted above is a good valve from Delta and accepts either single or dual handle cartridges (on a dual, the temp selector is stacked on the volume knob). The trim kit you posted is for single handle only and does not include the cartridge, so it would need to be purchased as well. We used to install both types until we got too many complaints from people that they wanted pressure control at all temps because they had small children or an elderly person that had sensitive skin. Eventually, we only started offering the 1700 series (dual handle) to eliminate any concerns. It really just depends what your needs and price concerns are.


thanks for the input sir. i cant quite decide yet, but i think i am going 1 handle


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> I would connect to the risers(vertical) Offset as needed.


another question for you please: looking back at the pic, can i just cut the old pipe past the elbow down on the supply line. and then solder the new elbow onto the new valve so that i can easily solder the assembly back instead of making it complicated?

or can i just solder the new section into the elbow?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

How are you doing the plumbing for the new one? Copper solder?

Sharkbite fittings (also called push-to-connect fittings, since Sharkbite is not the only brand), can be used behind a wall. Some people are nervous about them leaking, although I'm not sure why. If you are, then can always go into your crawlspace and convert from copper to PEX under there with a Sharkbite, then just bring up PEX to your new fitting.

To get the old out, if you want you can just heat the elbow and pull it off. You can clean up the old copper and sweat new stuff on there without cutting or adding more copper pipe (on the riser at least).


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> How are you doing the plumbing for the new one? Copper solder?
> 
> Sharkbite fittings (also called push-to-connect fittings, since Sharkbite is not the only brand), can be used behind a wall. Some people are nervous about them leaking, although I'm not sure why. If you are, then can always go into your crawlspace and convert from copper to PEX under there with a Sharkbite, then just bring up PEX to your new fitting.
> 
> To get the old out, if you want you can just heat the elbow and pull it off. You can clean up the old copper and sweat new stuff on there without cutting or adding more copper pipe (on the riser at least).


oh interesting. yea for some reason people say they fail over time. so i was just going to do some sweating!:yes: since you guys are all so encouraging and awesome holding my hand

(too much work to switch to pex. this is on 2nd floor bath too)

now thats a great tip!!! i was trying to cut down on number of solders, so this helps out a lot! thank you

how do i heat it up? with same solder torch?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok gents. so here is my shopping list. anything i am missing?

for the couplings, are these ok?
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/21/21242e7e-a9e3-41d2-bc17-96ece1bce48a_400.jpg

-copper pipe

-pipe cutter

-wire brush cleaner

-oatey 95 flux

-oatey lead free solder

-propane torch

-copper couplings?

-metal electric plate

-anything else??

going to try to get this done in the next few days! wish me luck!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

geez adding up the materials its close to $100. should i just hire someone to sweat the valve in??


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Just heat with the propane torch and pull with pliers. Then use emery cloth to clean the outside of the pipes, and use the wire brush cleaner to clean the inside of the elbows. I'm not sure why you need couplings if you get the old elbows off.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm going to recommend you forget the soldering because of the investment and skill involved. A tub/shower valve is not the ideal place to learn.

Instead, switch to pex. Buy one of the following tools- it will cinch 1/2"-1" cinch rings.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_153553-61002-69PTKG1096_0__?productId=3572372

You can get the valve with iron pipe threads, then use pex x IP adapters for the hot, cold and shower riser.
For the tub- use standard galvanized nipples. DO NOT USE PEX FOR TUB SPOUTS

At the hot and cold supplies coming up from the floor- use push fit fittings- installed correctly they won't leak.

By doing this- you have saved your solder shopping list as well as frustration learning to solder. not to mention fixing solder leaks.

Also know the valve location in relation to your new tub before installing


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

When I bought my PEX stuff, I didn't know if crimp or cinch was better. For whatever reason I felt that crimp looked stronger and more reliable. One disadantage of crimp for occasional users is that you have to have all the sizes. I actually have this one, which allows you to plug in the correct size, but for cinch you don't have to worry about that.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> I'm going to recommend you forget the soldering because of the investment and skill involved. A tub/shower valve is not the ideal place to learn.
> 
> Instead, switch to pex. Buy one of the following tools- it will cinch 1/2"-1" cinch rings.
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_153553-61002-69PTKG1096_0__?productId=3572372
> ...


oh no! i was all set on doing the solder sir....i been watching countless videos and mike and the other guys like you have been such a great help. i know NOTHING about pex, or how to use these tools. can we stick with solder please? i think with you guys help i can do this. i rather not switch my plan this far at this point you know? and i thought once you solder its good for 50yrs


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> Just heat with the propane torch and pull with pliers. Then use emery cloth to clean the outside of the pipes, and use the wire brush cleaner to clean the inside of the elbows. I'm not sure why you need couplings if you get the old elbows off.


originally i was going to cut the pipe toward the middle between the old valve and old supply line, then have the coupling to join the new lines together. but the hot side is too short to the elbow, hence my new issue. but yea if i can use the elbow then i wont need the coupling for that line


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

PEX is _way_ easier than copper, and the tool is simple. But if you have your heart set on copper, go for it. But there is a learning curve with soldering, so I would practice on some scrap pieces in your garage until you have it down pat. Put some together and take some apart, so you'll be ready to take apart your current plumbing too.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> PEX is _way_ easier than copper, and the tool is simple. But if you have your heart set on copper, go for it. But there is a learning curve with soldering, so I would practice on some scrap pieces in your garage until you have it down pat. Put some together and take some apart, so you'll be ready to take apart your current plumbing too.


yea but is it safe to go from copper to pex? i read about it but i feel like its a new thing. from the hours of videos i watched solder doesnt seem too bad. you basically heat it up until the solder melts and it seals it. done:whistling2: 

but i guess doing first time i wont really know....how much easier is pex?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i guess my main concern is does pex last 50yr too?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Going from copper to PEX is just a matter of sticking in a Sharkbite, done. It's not very new. It's true soldering looks easy in videos, and plumbers make it look easy, and it can be, but it can be frustrating when it goes wrong. PEX is child's play if you follow the directions, is easy to undo and redo, pipe is easy to cut, pipe can be worked on when wet, pipe has some flexibility in it for slight adjustments in your valve, etc.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> Going from copper to PEX is just a matter of sticking in a Sharkbite, done. It's not very new. It's true soldering looks easy in videos, and plumbers make it look easy, and it can be, but it can be frustrating when it goes wrong. PEX is child's play if you follow the directions, is easy to undo and redo, pipe is easy to cut, pipe can be worked on when wet, pipe has some flexibility in it for slight adjustments in your valve, etc.


oh sharkbite is pex. i thought they were different:laughing: why do i read about sharkbite failing though? from the message boards i have looked at. sounds like you made the switch yourself?

i rather sweat copper if its better because i am doing this once.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i mean if i fcuk up solder, it will show leak when i test it, so worst case i do it like 10 times and waste a whole day right? i already have the materials so its not like i need to use new. i guess i will waste some copper and flux thats all


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

federer said:


> i guess my main concern is does pex last 50yr too?


Well copper won't necessarily last 50 years, ya know. Acidic water can eat through it, for example. PEX is very inert. However it hasn't been around as long as copper so I suppose you could say no one knows for sure how long it will last. I believe manufacturers only warrant it for 25 years for that reason. UV is no good for it, but obviously that won't be an issue for indoor plumbing. It's possible that the brass fittings used for PEX elbows, etc. could corrode - in fact I've seen it - but plastic fittings are available instead. And anyway, one of the big benefits of PEX is that you can just curve it instead of adding a whole bunch of fittings.

This is how I prefer to install PEX shower valves
http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/388-pex-shower-jpg.13086/

_not_ like this
http://www.bethanyfieldsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/2014-04-30_00171-772x1024.jpg

I suppose people just add those extra fittings because it looks logical. Or maybe they are still just thinking in terms of copper.

Of course, if the space is too small to bend the PEX, you need the fitting (there is a minimum bend that PEX should take - the PEX brace has that maximum curve built into it)
http://holdrite.com/cms_uploads/product_imgs/704.jpg


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> Well copper won't necessarily last 50 years, ya know. Acidic water can eat through it, for example. PEX is very inert. However it hasn't been around as long as copper so I suppose you could say no one knows for sure how long it will last. I believe manufacturers only warrant it for 25 years for that reason. UV is no good for it, but obviously that won't be an issue for indoor plumbing. It's possible that the brass fittings used for PEX elbows, etc. could corrode - in fact I've seen it - but plastic fittings are available instead. And anyway, one of the big benefits of PEX is that you can just curve it instead of adding a whole bunch of fittings.
> 
> This is how I prefer to install PEX shower valves
> http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/388-pex-shower-jpg.13086/
> ...


oh wow that does look way easier...hmm....looks like for the tub spout you still need copper though. so i still need to solder in at least one time


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Not sure why you read about Sharkbites failing. Probably one of those things that might or might not have happened when they first came, so everyone just started repeating it. They connect any combination of copper, PEX and CPVC.

It's also easy to test PEX, and there's a little gauge that comes with most of them you can use to check that the crimp is perfect.

Your call.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

hmmm....decisions


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i guess i am up for it if its just as good. but now i gotta rewatch everything. i literally spent like 10hrs of researching solder....sigh


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

By the way, using PEX for the tub spout is not that big a deal really. It's not like it will break anything or keep your shower from working. Probably everything will be fine. The issue is that the inside diameter of PEX pipe is just slightly smaller than copper. So the issue would be that sometimes there will be higher pressure in this pipe when water is flowing into your tub than the diverter in the valve expects. (Remember the diverter is the thing that makes the water flow to your shower spout instead of your tub spout.) So the absolute worst case scenario is that when your tub is filling, a little water will leak out your shower head due to the higher pressure in the tub pipe. Or, nothing at all will happen.

You can research the issue.
http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,380723
etc.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Not sure why you read about Sharkbites failing. Probably one of those things that might or might not have happened when they first came, so everyone just started repeating it. They connect any combination of copper, PEX and CPVC.
> 
> It's also easy to test PEX, and there's a little gauge that comes with most of them you can use to check that the crimp is perfect.
> 
> Your call.


I have heard from 2 different plumbing shops in my area that when shark bytes were used with pex they have had failures. This is even with the stiffener being used. Pex is a soft flexable product sharkbytes hold by digging in little prongs into the outer pex. They tend to blow off as they strip the soft outer pex and lose the joint. Unlike when used on copper or hard Cpvc.

In the end its the plumber and his company that loses.

And never use pex for a tub spout. I guarantee water will come out your shower head at the same time.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm not saying that the story is wrong, just that it is anecdotal. And I kind of have a hard time passing on anecdotal evidence as a hard recommendation.

This is a plumbing shop - they sell stuff - so what do you mean by "they" have had failures? Are these guys actually plumbers and had callbacks on Sharkbite fittings they installed? Or are they just passing on something they heard from "somewhere"?

There are some things that are accepted. For example, polybutyl connectors had a high tendency to fail. This is well documented. Any unreasonably high rate of Sharkbite failures is not documented to the best of my knowledge. (And there can always be _some_ failures - this is true with copper as well....)


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> I'm not saying that the story is wrong, just that it is anecdotal. And I kind of have a hard time passing on anecdotal evidence as a hard recommendation.
> 
> This is a plumbing shop - they sell stuff - so what do you mean by "they" have had failures? Are these guys actually plumbers and had callbacks on Sharkbite fittings they installed? Or are they just passing on something they heard from "somewhere"?
> 
> There are some things that are accepted. For example, polybutyl connectors had a high tendency to fail. This is well documented. Any unreasonably high rate of Sharkbite failures is not documented to the best of my knowledge. (And there can always be _some_ failures - this is true with copper as well....)


Jeff they were 2 different state of Ohio certified plumbing companies. Both ended up paying off with company insurance for water damage that resulted. What you want to use is your choice. I would never recommend a sharkbyte on pex arrangement. All sharkbyte does is claim an improper install so they walk away with no responsibility.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

So by "plumbing shop" you mean "plumbing company", which means plumbers that installed them?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Yep They tried them and lost the bet.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> By the way, using PEX for the tub spout is not that big a deal really. It's not like it will break anything or keep your shower from working. Probably everything will be fine. The issue is that the inside diameter of PEX pipe is just slightly smaller than copper. So the issue would be that sometimes there will be higher pressure in this pipe when water is flowing into your tub than the diverter in the valve expects. (Remember the diverter is the thing that makes the water flow to your shower spout instead of your tub spout.) So the absolute worst case scenario is that when your tub is filling, a little water will leak out your shower head due to the higher pressure in the tub pipe. Or, nothing at all will happen.


Do not use pex for the tub spout piping.
When you order a Moen or Delta valve with pex connections- the valve is configured to receive pex on the h&c inlets only, not the tub or shower ports.
This tells me that Moen or Delta do not want pex connected to the outlet ports of their valves


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Of course they don't  It says so right in the instructions.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*wow. thank you everyone for the discussion. its one of the things i think makes this place amazing. 

now i am leaning towards copper, NOT to go against anyone's suggestion, BUT only just because i already spent so many hours reading and watching and researching on the topic, and i rather not read up all on pex from scratch. i am sure PEX is a viable product, i just dont wanna start over with my plan. hope you guys understand. worst case, if i fail with solder, i can go to pex right lol*


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

federer---If I were doing that valve,I would cut the riser pipes ---then make up the copper ,with the 90s and a length of pipe---soldered first--then cut the pipes to match--and set the entire assembly onto the riser pipes--only two soldered connections would be done in place--


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> federer---If I were doing that valve,I would cut the riser pipes ---then make up the copper ,with the 90s and a length of pipe---soldered first--then cut the pipes to match--and set the entire assembly onto the riser pipes--only two soldered connections would be done in place--


whoa! can you explain this so i know exactly what you mean?:laughing:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

by teh way i got NEW pics coming up!


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> whoa! can you explain this so i know exactly what you mean?:laughing:


With all due respect, you need to slow down and read- very carefully- the info or comments in this thread.

This method was mentioned a long time back in the thread- or at least- alluded to. 
So now you are choosing copper again?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> With all due respect, you need to slow down and read- very carefully- the info or comments in this thread.
> 
> This method was mentioned a long time back in the thread- or at least- alluded to.
> So now you are choosing copper again?


thank you. i do need to go back and read over the comments. let me do that now.

yea i think i am doing copper only because i spent so much time researching it i know nothing about pex


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok while i go back to refresh my memory. heres some new pics for yall. finally managed to get the tub out! took about 3 hrs. it was tougher than i thought. but i managed finally.

so a few questions. 
1is the subfloor in good shape or should i lay new plywood down? 
2 in one corner there is some rotted wood. is this ok or no?
3 any other issue that you guys spot i dont know about?:whistling2:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so ok my understanding is no matter what i need to do 3 solders in the new wall. i can prefab the tub spout, but there's 3 left to do in the wall: hot side, cold side, and tying into the shower head.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That sounds about right--often the old shower head is to low for todays taller people--so I tend to replace the shower head riser more often than not.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

the bathroom ceiling is too low to make the shower head higher haha


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

First off you want to get the tub in place so you know where to center your valve and tub spout. Looks real bad when the tub drain overflow and the valve stuff are not on the same center from the back wall.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> First off you want to get the tub in place so you know where to center your valve and tub spout. Looks real bad when the tub drain overflow and the valve stuff are not on the same center from the back wall.


so the existing valve is off by ONE inch with the new tub. so when i sweat in the new valve i can move it over 1 inch. the bigger issue is the apron of the tub has a flare on each end, which overlaps the tile floor. so now i gotta cut up the tile


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> so the existing valve is off by ONE inch with the new tub. so when i sweat in the new valve i can move it over 1 inch. the bigger issue is the apron of the tub has a flare on each end, which overlaps the tile floor. so now i gotta cut up the tile


Were you thinking you were special and you were gonna be the first person in history to do the project without issues, ha....:laughing:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

not funny man.......


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> not funny man.......



Sorry, the extra work is not funny. My point was for anyone actually thinking their job would go smoothly w/o any problems is the funny point.

We've all been there. Renos always turn into a bunch of extra work. It's happened to me a bunch of times and I'm going to really get the big whammy ($$$$) next year when my house budget falls short about 150 grand.

I was actually starting to believe my project would go off easily. 
Found a cracked foundation wall and that's going to be 100 K right there. Funny, no.

Funny thinking it was going to go smoothly and it it isn't? Hell, yes!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

its super stressful...haha you understand how it is


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If you don't mind some dust--an angle grinder and a diamond wheel will have that tile gone in a few minutes----

I slap a wet sponge against the blade to reduce the dust---but you may want to keep your finger safe---mine are old and need replacing--so I don't care that much--:laughing:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> If you don't mind some dust--an angle grinder and a diamond wheel will have that tile gone in a few minutes----
> 
> I slap a wet sponge against the blade to reduce the dust---but you may want to keep your finger safe---mine are old and need replacing--so I don't care that much--:laughing:


 yikes! you are nuts. my stupid craftsman oscillating tool just crapped out on me yesterday. now i need to buy a new one


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Don't just research. Garage or outside without the smoke alarm and do the actual soldering. Crimping the copper connectors slightly makes them stay in place and not flop around. If you use a vice grip to hold, it will act as a heat sink and will take longer to heat. Actually heat the flame shield and see when it starts to burn. Burn the connections and see when it becomes a bad soldering work. Drop of water in the pipe and see what happens. 

Start with vertical tube in a 90 deg ell and see how the flux and solder flow. When you're comfortable, go to horizontal connection and see what happens if solder is applied from one side only, etc. If solder is recessed in the female side connector and you see what may be empty air pocket or a hole, it could be bad solder work. Always wipe the work and inspect with strong light. Amazon has cheap led flashlight. Dorcy brand with aa battery cartridge is cheap, bright, and a best value I've seen in a long time. Never mind the gasket fails.

I learned these things on the job, so I advise you not to do the same. Don't ever think, "that's good enough".


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

carpdad said:


> Don't just research. Garage or outside without the smoke alarm and do the actual soldering. Crimping the copper connectors slightly makes them stay in place and not flop around. If you use a vice grip to hold, it will act as a heat sink and will take longer to heat. Actually heat the flame shield and see when it starts to burn. Burn the connections and see when it becomes a bad soldering work. Drop of water in the pipe and see what happens.
> 
> Start with vertical tube in a 90 deg ell and see how the flux and solder flow. When you're comfortable, go to horizontal connection and see what happens if solder is applied from one side only, etc. If solder is recessed in the female side connector and you see what may be empty air pocket or a hole, it could be bad solder work. Always wipe the work and inspect with strong light. Amazon has cheap led flashlight. Dorcy brand with aa battery cartridge is cheap, bright, and a best value I've seen in a long time. Never mind the gasket fails.
> 
> I learned these things on the job, so I advise you not to do the same. Don't ever think, "that's good enough".


thank you so much for the tips!!! i definitely can use them


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so guess what guys? stupid....i had picked out a delta valve and was all ready to sweat some copper today. then i find out the existing valve is moen brand, and the delta valve is bigger so it sticks out past the stud too far. so now my whole day is ruined and i have to go back and start over by picking out a different valve/trim. UGHHHHH


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> so guess what guys? stupid....i had picked out a delta valve and was all ready to sweat some copper today. then i find out the existing valve is moen brand, and the delta valve is bigger so it sticks out past the stud too far. so now my whole day is ruined and i have to go back and start over by picking out a different valve/trim. UGHHHHH


A Delta valve will fit in a 2x4 wall- just requires off setting the vertical supply pipes


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> A Delta valve will fit in a 2x4 wall- just requires off setting the vertical supply pipes


how do you do that??? i am already doing so much work, i just need to get this done today, and now i am WAy behind schedule. i shouldve just left it as is


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

also it pisses me off how of the 1000 faucets at home depot, only like 10 is available in store. WTF


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

If you mean homedepot.com, well obviously that is a different animal. They can't possibly stock all that at a local store.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> how do you do that??? i am already doing so much work, i just need to get this done today, and now i am WAy behind schedule. i shouldve just left it as is


You install horizontal pipe stubs in the hot & cold inlets of your new valve, set your valve to the desired depth in the wall- use the mud guard for the gauge.
Then measure the horizontal distance between the horizontal stubs & the vertical risers. Build that offset with 45's or 90's



federer said:


> also it pisses me off how of the 1000 faucets at home depot, only like 10 is available in store. WTF


My supply house probably doesn't even have 10 models on the shelf, but they'll get it to me the next day or so....


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> You install horizontal pipe stubs in the hot & cold inlets of your new valve, set your valve to the desired depth in the wall- use the mud guard for the gauge.
> Then measure the horizontal distance between the horizontal stubs & the vertical risers. Build that offset with 45's or 90's
> 
> 
> My supply house probably doesn't even have 10 models on the shelf, but they'll get it to me the next day or so....


haha....i wish i was a pro like you guys...i dont even know what a mud guard is and i have to cut into the studs and measure the depth....more room for error. i am way too behind to be making more mistakes and such. 


well snap can i use your account for one time:whistling2:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

OK guys. countdown! about 9 hours left. i feel like this is the day i become a real man:laughing: wish me luck gents! i want to say thank you to everyone.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

guess what guys! i didnt burn the house down

you all wanna see how bad i did:laughing:

http://imgur.com/a/cnFd6#0


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok guys. guess what. i just read through this entire thread again from post #1. i want to get this tub done, so 2 questions please.

1. from the pictures, does it look like i may have a bad solder joint anywhere? i think i may have over heated one of the 90 elbows? 
i did do a 5min pressure test and it held for the 5 min. is that good enough? 

2. reading back through the thread it was mentioned i have compression nut fittings for connecting to the p strap. so can i just get this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Watts-Sc...-Kit-with-Chrome-Plated-Finish-43CP/100677376
and screw it in with the nut? 

hope to get this done by fri! 

and most important, i want to thank all of you. i couldnt have even made it this far


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

here is a repeat pic for easy reference so you dont have to go back and find it:thumbup:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If the thing doesn't leak--you win!

To check for minor seepage--wipe the fittings with tissue paper---the paper really shows any water.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> If the thing doesn't leak--you win!
> 
> To check for minor seepage--wipe the fittings with tissue paper---the paper really shows any water.


 good tip! i am going to test it out some more today after i sweat in the shower head. so far so good:thumbsup: thanks Mike


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> 2. reading back through the thread it was mentioned i have compression nut fittings for connecting to the p strap. so can i just get this
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Watts-Sc...-Kit-with-Chrome-Plated-Finish-43CP/100677376
> and screw it in with the nut?
> 
> ...


Glad to see you're progressing :thumbsup:
The waste and overflow you referenced is good. To be code compliant you'll need to replace the trap as well since it has a nut. Purchase one with all glue joint connections. Also pick up small cans of PVC primer and glue.
Don't forget plumbers putty for the drain assembly.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> Glad to see you're progressing :thumbsup:
> The waste and overflow you referenced is good. To be code compliant you'll need to replace the trap as well since it has a nut. Purchase one with all glue joint connections. Also pick up small cans of PVC primer and glue.
> Don't forget plumbers putty for the drain assembly.


i cant use the nut???

i have a leak from the shower riser solder joint. how do i re solder please help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> i cant use the nut???
> 
> i have a leak from the shower riser solder joint. how do i re solder please help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Turn off the water.
Remove the cartridge.
Reheat the outlet at the valve. Run solder on it again. Don't touch and let cool.
Re test for leaks.

If still leaking, disassemble joint by heating and pulling pipe out.
Inspect for lack of flux or cleaning. 
Re-solder.

Chances are you didn't heat the brass well enough all the way around the valve.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> Turn off the water.
> Remove the cartridge.
> Reheat the outlet at the valve. Run solder on it again. Don't touch and let cool.
> Re test for leaks.
> ...


thank you. i tried to heat it up and pull the copper out to re do it but it wont melt the solder. so i just clumped a ton of solder onto it. hope it sticks............:huh:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> thank you. i tried to heat it up and pull the copper out to re do it but it wont melt the solder. so i just clumped a ton of solder onto it. hope it sticks............:huh:


sounds like you have water in the pipe not allowing it to heat up.
The solder joint is made by the solder inside the fitting. Putting solder on the outside does no good but fool you for a while


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok new problem. the waste/overflow kit doesnt fit into the p trap fitting


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> sounds like you have water in the pipe not allowing it to heat up.
> The solder joint is made by the solder inside the fitting. Putting solder on the outside does no good but fool you for a while


so how do i fix it?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yep you are right its leaking again already whyyyy  every other joint is perfect i knew i should have finished it all yesterday why did i leave one to solder today


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

With the water off make, sure the cartridge is removed. This should drain all the pipe from the valve body. Water is bad when soldering...
Now you need to heat the valve outlet to the shower only- not the pipe. You want to avoid over heating the pipe as it will expand ever so slightly when heated- causing it to bind against the brass. You want more heat on the brass than the copper.
The valve needs to be anchored so it doesn't wriggle much- and it might take some force- but the pipe will come out of the fitting. Easy on the heat- too much is not a good thing.

Once removed you start over the process of sanding, cleaning, fluxing and re- soldering. Don't wipe or clean the joint until the solder sets.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> With the water off make, sure the cartridge is removed. This should drain all the pipe from the valve body. Water is bad when soldering...
> Now you need to heat the valve outlet to the shower only- not the pipe. You want to avoid over heating the pipe as it will expand ever so slightly when heated- causing it to bind against the brass. You want more heat on the brass than the copper.
> The valve needs to be anchored so it doesn't wriggle much- and it might take some force- but the pipe will come out of the fitting. Easy on the heat- too much is not a good thing.
> 
> Once removed you start over the process of sanding, cleaning, fluxing and re- soldering. Don't wipe or clean the joint until the solder sets.


ok so i pull cartridge back out to drain all the water.
so i heat up the valve outlet, not the copper pipe. i am too tired today going to do it first thing in the morning. should i put flux on the solder joint before heat?

thank you so much for helping me out. if i had more money i would give you some for all your guidance


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

thinking back to it, i think the difference between today and yesterday is the valve may have been wet. after i was done yesterday i did a water test and left it over night. today i stuck a towel into the valve to dry it out, then did everything the same as yesterday. but this time i got a leak. does it only take a tiny amount of water for solder to fail? and if so, how do i make sure valve is completely dry tomorrow after i pull the copper out?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If you wish to try and fix the leak without pulling the pipe out--try this--

with the cartridge removed---heat the joint---then brush on more flux--continue heating until the solder flows into the joint (more fresh solder)---when it does--stop---this is successful with new work--most times---

And ,yes, the smallest drop of water can cause steam--which will make bubbles and voids in your joint.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> If you wish to try and fix the leak without pulling the pipe out--try this--
> 
> with the cartridge removed---heat the joint---then brush on more flux--continue heating until the solder flows into the joint (more fresh solder)---when it does--stop---this is successful with new work--most times---
> 
> And ,yes, the smallest drop of water can cause steam--which will make bubbles and voids in your joint.


thanks mike. how do i make sure the valve is dry before i try this again? i opened up the tub spout to let it drain overnight. is that good enough


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

heat the pipe and listen---you will hear the steam or popping of water hitting the heated area---


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> heat the pipe and listen---you will hear the steam or popping of water hitting the heated area---


will report back wish me luck!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

see this pic
http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...stallatioon-question-about-plumbing-waste.jpg


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok new solution? what about i epoxy the one leaking spot? it's only dripping about 1 drop every minute from the 90 elbow on cold side


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

No!!!

Fix it right---yikes---getting to that part after the tub surround is in will be a nightmare--


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> ok new solution? what about i epoxy the one leaking spot? it's only dripping about 1 drop every minute from the 90 elbow on cold side


Absolutely not! 

Take away your fear, go give it a little flux and reheat it, a dab of solder as req'd and you're done.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> Absolutely not!
> 
> Take away your fear, go give it a little flux and reheat it, a dab of solder as req'd and you're done.


yea well i tried re soldering it 5 times and it still didnt work. so you tell me what to do. its not my fear i been soldering day and night for days on end now.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Could you post a wide angle shot of the valve and piping? I can't figure out why it is holding water----


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> yea well i tried re soldering it 5 times and it still didnt work. so you tell me what to do. its not my fear i been soldering day and night for days on end now.



Generally, in welding when a guy who is new at it, has problems, they lose their confidence as everything they try doesn't seem to work.
This is after doing it for a couple weeks even. Soldering is about the same.

Pics always help. Post pics every time you're in trouble with something and the pros here will see them and tell you what's going on.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

It could be your technique. Maybe the flame isn't big enough or you aren't holding it close enough to the fitting. Having to redo joints isn't fun especially if you can't get the water out.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Then you need to heat it up and take the joint apart. Then clean both joints and apply flux to both joints and re solder. Heat to the bottom Solder to the top at the edge of the joint.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

here is the joint. it's the 90 elbow on the cold inlet side. the leak is on the opposite side of the picture.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

federer said:


> here is the joint. it's the 90 elbow on the cold inlet side. the leak is on the opposite side of the picture.



As previously mentioned, just remove it, clean it up and install a new 90.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yea.....

so when i do the new 90, on the horizontal side i should heat the bottom and solder on top, but for the vertical side which side do i heat? left and heat on right side of pipe?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

federer said:


> yea.....
> 
> so when i do the new 90, on the horizontal side i should heat the bottom and solder on top, but for the vertical side which side do i heat? left and heat on right side of pipe?


You want to evenly heat the fitting. Apply solder to the oppisite side you are heating.
The coolest spot on a 90 will be the crotch.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> You want to evenly heat the fitting. Apply solder to the oppisite side you are heating.
> The coolest spot on a 90 will be the crotch.


ah gotcha! 
how do i take the elbow off? put some flux on and heat it up...but how do i pry it off? its going to be super hot and i dont want to clamp down on the copper and crush it....:wink:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

better yet can i just re use the elbow? pull it up free from the cold supply and brush it clean both ends so i just have to do one solder joint


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

another problem...if theres water left in pipe, i cant heat it up high enough to melt the solder anyways..........


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*guess what guys? i got it!!!!!!!:thumbup:
what i did was took a wet vac and stuck a straw into teh valve to suck teh water out that was left in the pipe. then i was able to resolder. no more leak!!!!!!!!!!!*


======
but now i got a new problem. so the tub is 30 1/2 in wide. teh original tub was only 30. i took up the row of tile and found this. should i just make a 1/2 in cut all the way down teh subfloor? or do you think i can slide the tub in and push it down snug to fit? the tub itself is exact 30in installed but instructions say 30 1/2 nominal.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

I knew you could do it.

Can't tell from your pic what you're seeing.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> I knew you could do it.
> 
> Can't tell from your pic what you're seeing.


+1 :thumbsup:

You're looking at the underlayment at the apron location (I think)

Cut it back so the tub rests on the rough floor then bring the underlayment up to the tub apron. Chances are good you may gut the floor so the old underlayment should come out too


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> +1 :thumbsup:
> 
> You're looking at the underlayment at the apron location (I think)
> 
> Cut it back so the tub rests on the rough floor then bring the underlayment up to the tub apron. Chances are good you may gut the floor so the old underlayment should come out too


yea thats the subfloor under the tile where the apron edge of the old tub was at.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i think i am going to try to squeeze it in too much work as it is. how much would it cost for a plumber to install a tub at this stage with the old one already out?


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