# How to size steel cable for barn wall repair



## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

probably not a diy job.

you could end up with a dynamic load and be in a bad situation. dynamic load could occur if the wind blows the wrong way for instance.

i would either get a pro to raise and crib it until repair is done, then lower it, OR re-engineer in place with new structural member/supports where needed.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Wind? Not an issue.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Yes, I'm aware of that issue and it's is not my plan. Rather, steel plates and eye bolts are.

Your wording sounds almost verbatim to RIchard Lazarus' writeup.

Thank you.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,... You'll need cabling that equals the strength of whatever yer doin' the pulling with...
A 2 ton come-a-long needs atleast 2 ton cabling...


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

The real question isn't how strong does each of the indiviudal components need to be, but rather the cable strength. Everything will depend on that.

Probably won't even be using a come-a-long.

If I had done this before I'd have an idea as to the effort required and satisfaction with the cable used. I'm hoping someone's done this before and can speak to that experience.

Thank you.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

I found a good writeup of someone correcting a bow from an almost identical setup as mine using tow straps instead of cable. Sounds good to me.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I can honestly say I have no first-hand experience doing this personally, but we had worked with a pro who straightened barns for a living for many years. As I recall, he always used 1/2" cable. I know he didn't buy it, so that could be why he chose to use such a big cable. He had some connection that got him as much free/cheap cable as he wanted, as it came from a skyscraper's routine elevator maintenance.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

That's an interesting source!

Thanks for mentioning the 1/2". It's the first concrete sizing I've heard.

I started looking into the straps. Not surprisingly, mfg claimed capacities are no where near their working capacities, so I need to research this a bit more. I plan to use straps; one to each side of the main beams that connect the walls to the center post.

At some point, someone installed rods to hold the walls to the beams, but it split anyway and bent the eyelets in the beams. I suspect they were installed to stop the spreading, which had already begun. 

The more I read on this, the less mysterious and scary it becomes.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

It's not near as scary as some may believe. I think the most intimidating part of the whole project would stem from one's fear of heights, if that was your own case. The one thing I can caution on is don't get "greedy" in moving, pulling, or straightening of the barn's structure. It took decades for it to shift, don't try to return it to it's original state in a few days, or you'll certainly be pushing the limits of your hardware, not to mention your own safety & luck..........


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

You're right. I have no idea how long it will take to bring it back in. My neighbor is super smart about this stuff and he's done it before on his own home. In his project he let the wood "talk to him". Each morning he'd give everything a little crank until he met resistance and then stopped.

I could end up lucky and have it go really easily if my suspicions are correct in that the rod was inserted in recent history, as opposed to 100 years ago.

While heights has been a major challenge for me, I'm making progress. In this project, however, I have a loft in the barn, so most of the work will be real easy in that respect. I think I'm going to install steel plates on the outside of the beams (two per side, in addition to the one that's already in the middle) with threaded eye bolts. That will probably be the only work done on a ladder.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

One more thing I just remembered from years back was that he always used 18-24" sections of channel iron on the backsides of his posts for pulling. Not sure if it was critical, or if was just material that he had lying around.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

:thumbsup: on the channel 

theaulieu, can you post a picture or two of your crooked old barn?


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

"crooked old barn" ... boy, that sure makes it sound crummy!


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Nice shot of the tenon pulling out.
　
I was hoping to see a stand back shot of the whole thing to get a visual of what your up against.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

It's really not that bad from outside. You can see a bit of a dip in the ridge and the two walls bow a bit.

I've also got some issues with posts that I'd like to jack up a bit. I suspect the center post in the cellar gave way and one of the beams on the first floor broke. Possibly even the center post on the first floor.

The floor dips in the center by a few inches, which is a PITA for equiment and tables. The post with the broken mortise also dropped 2-4 inches.

Everything seems stable now with repairs made in the cellar, but it's still annoying to see and deal with things out of square like that.

I found a really nice guy from Maine that does barn repair. I think he'd do a bang up job, but I think the cost is just too much for us right now.


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## newcholon (Sep 6, 2011)

I have a similar situation while rehab this old house. My problem was the front fascia (wall) of the building separated from the perpendicular walls. Due the a heavy snow load on the roof that pushed that wall out. The wall separated the support elements in about 7 degree angle. Every contractor I hired got scared and not wanted the job due to it liability. So, I have to think quick to come up a system using 1/4" cable, fender washers and eye bolts at 2 ft O.C. I installed a 2x6 pressure treated wood outside the wall and drilled 1/2" holes for the fender washers and eye bolts. Then, using a combination of chain and strap with come along to slowly pull in the wall and then turn the buckle to the point where the cable reached it resistant. It took me 2 months by myself to pull it and secure the wall. Every day I would turn the buckle 1 revolution slowly...not too quickly which could crack the wall and create a dangerous situation. It a long process....here is the link of some photos in working progress...

http://www.use.com/editset.pl?set=5b6f4257054ec4301eed


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

It's nice to hear other experiences. I don't come across many people trying to do this sort of thing.

Many will be scared to attempt such repairs. Others will try to discourage you.

If you're really lucky you'll find someone who's done it before and therefore understands how doable it really is.

Since starting this thread, I've come a long way. I can't even tell you how many hours I have in this project. It's truly staggering. The project got much bigger than originally expected. The more I looked, the more I found. I ended up jacking and leveling the entire barn. The back had to come up 3.5"! I replaced 80% of the sill and leveled all the posts with a laser upstairs. I had to cut back and splice in new post bottoms in some cases. 

I ended up using a combinatoin of farm jacks, screw jacks and railroad jacks.

For pulling I bought two 4" ratched straps. Beasts! I installed 3/4" x 10" eye bolts through the top plate (8x8 beams). 

There are lots of ways to mess up, and you might end up redoing some things, but if you approach everything methodically and reallly think it through before acting, it's surprisingly simple to straighten a building. Not easy, but simple. ! I'm enormously proud of the work I've accomplished so far this year.


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

hello,
im about to start the same process on a barn in upstate ny. i would be grateful for any info regarding your work that you could share.what cable size did you end up using? and if you didnt use come alongs, did you use only turnbuckles? i am positively going to do this myself with experienced help. did you leave permanent cabling in the structure and if so what size was that?
thanks for your help


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

i see part of my answer here;

"For pulling I bought two 4" ratched straps. Beasts! I installed 3/4" x 10" eye bolts through the top plate (8x8 beams). "
how did you decide this was adequate for your working load?


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

*Happy to help*

I'm all too happy to share what I found after hundreds of hours of research and labor last summer. In the end, I found the process could be boiled down to individual tasks that weren't that complicated. Of course, your situation may be different.

To answer your specific question about cables. I bought a pair of 4" ratchet straps from Northern Tool. I installed 3/4" eye bolts (and matching nuts and shackles - all from riggingwarehouse) into the top plate (beam) on either side of the bowed walls. The straps were PLENTY strong enough.

Try to figure out the cause of your issues. For instance, it turned out that the real culprit with my bowing walls at the top was a sill that collapsed and twisted. This caused the center beam in that wall to kick in at the bottom and out at the top. It also kicked the cross beam tied into the sill to kick inwards towards the other wall, pushing the bottom of that center beam outwards.

My first attempt at pulling the walls in at the top was misguided. It actually "worked", until I came down out of the barn and realized that I had pulled one wall over to match the bow in the other, and the bottom of post kicked out! If you think about it, pulling two walls together with no anchor is a crap shoot. You have no idea what's going to give. You might get lucky, or not.

It took me many hours of staring at the structure from every vantage to figure out the big picture; the many contributing problems. I then tackled them all in the order that seemed right to me.

I ended up replacing the entire sill of the barn, one wall at a time. I bought some big-ass railroad jacks and mechanical bottle jacks, and borrowed some. I also bought some farm jacks. It takes a lot of jacks for a barn project. I lagged PT (stronger) 2x6s vertically to the outside of the barn, into the posts (just drilled pilot holes through the 2x6 the siding, sheathing and into the post). I used 1/2" lags and washers. I could jack the barn up off the foundation using these boards. Once jacked, I cut out the old nasty sills. Next I dismantled and repaired any foundation that wasn't good. I then slid the new 21' sill in and lowered the barn onto it. I worked my way around the barn like this. When levelling things, it was difficult to figure out what to use as a reference. With a barn that old, you're trying to figure out what happened over 200 years! There was a 3.5" drop from the front to the back. I used a rotary level on a tripod and paint to mark the permiter level line on the foundation. Oh, I then installed 60+ bags of mortar between the stones which were previously just dry laid. I also replaced most of the floor joists. I added three footings and cement block columns under the main beam, as well.

I used the rotary laser in the loft to level the tops of the posts. Again, it was difficult to figure out which to use as a reference. I had to replace rotten bottoms on several of the posts. Again, I jacked them as described, cut out a chair pattern and lagged new bottoms to them.

At this point, by barn is in kick-ass shape. It's all level and solid and good for a LONG, healthy life! I've got tons of pictures if you'd like to see anything.

Don't hesitate to ask for more help. I couldn't have done it without an amazing neighbor who supervised my adventure!


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

How did I decide on the 4" straps? 

I partly guessed. I read a lot and stumbled across the straps and thought they were a good price and strength. I talked with various people that are much smarter than I am and the concensus was that they would probably be fine. Remember, there's a big difference in required effort to lift an object, versus pulling it.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

tbeaulieu said:


> I found a really nice guy from Maine that does barn repair. I think he'd do a bang up job, but I think the cost is just too much for us right now.


What is the age of the barn?
If it is old enough, contact the local historical society. There are grants available to defer the cost to repair some old buildings. Money has been tight though.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

I read a little bit on that a few years back and decided it wasn't for me.

I don't think they'd be interested in funding my new workshop and golf simulator!


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

tbeaulieu said:


> Wind? Not an issue.


How come wind is not an issue!?


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Strange question, Tony.

People don't come to a forum for information on how they CAN'T do something. They come here to for help to DO it. Generic "you're not qualified" responses are shallow and not well arrogant.

In my case, I have a post and beam barn. Jacking a corner 3" that was merely sitting on stone poses ZERO risk, regarding wind. I could have paid $20k (EASILY - I GOT QUOTES) for the repairs that I did. I read and learned how to tackle the tasks safely. Bought the needed equipment. Performed the steps in the correct order. Sure, it took me MANY hours and was a MASSIVE undertaking (time-wise), the more I did the more irritated I got with answers like that.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

tbeaulieu said:


> Strange question, Tony.
> 
> People don't come to a forum for information on how they CAN'T do something. They come here to for help to DO it. Generic "you're not qualified" responses are shallow and not well arrogant.
> 
> .


Calm down! 

I wasn't criticising your approach, still less the fact that you would do something like this yourself, which imo is commendable. Too often people give up at the first hurdle and pay a professional to do a job which they could well do themselves, with a bit of thought, research and elbow grease.

I've done similar jobs myself, including rewiring, plumbing, roofing, extensions and structural alterations, vehicle repairs etc. Like you, i know the satisfaction of having done a job at a fraction of the cost of paying someone else - it's almost like cheating the system. 

The only reason I raised the issue of wind-load was that I once got caught out on this (I design school playground shelters and light timber-frame classrooms); wind forces can catch even experienced SEs unawares. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid about that aspect! but if I see someone write 'no problem' regarding wind-load I just think, hmmm.

Anyway, enough of this - all I can say is well done :thumbup:


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

got some of the 4" straps, they were what i was looking for. much cheaper and easier to work with than chain, and safer than understrength cablepullers. im going to 1/4" cable/turnbuckle the main bents together and then use longer straps/ rigging slings to pull things around. i also must replace all the sills, and add many braces for triangulation. i think my order is:
1. cable, brace structure.
2.jack and replace sills, sister rotted posts.
3. pull closer to plumb/ square. 
4. more of #1 to hold it for another 100 years.
any other observations are more than welcome. as always, it is the question that i didnt know to ask that is going to be the one that needs most to be answered.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

That's a big barn!

If you take it slowly and work in sections, it will start to talk to you. You have listen a lot, though. The more I studied my small barn the more I learned about what had gone wrong. It took many hours to get the whole picture.

A rotary laser from craigslist would be a very useful tool.

You'll need lots of jacks. Again, cl or borrowed is great. Farm jacks are also helpful for not only jacking, but shifting and pushing things around. Adjustable jacking posts are a must-have. You'll need a bunch of those. I can talk more about the jacking if you need. Sometimes you need to jack from inside and outside at the same time, as in one of the photos with the "beam" running under the sill.

Be very careful to not put yourself in harms way. Always have redundancy!

These photos are just too big and I don't feel like messing with trying to figure it out right now. If you'd like me to email them, let me know.

I don't really consider cables a long term solution. A structure should be able to stand on its own. I think there's usually a failure that leads to the symptoms you see. In my case I think it was the foundation, but I will admit that I've yet to remove the straps from the loft top plates.


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

*cabling*

i dont think i can email you separately yet, as a "newbie" my options were limited to thread input.
the cabling planed for permanent use is for where there is a short or kneewall that doesnt have as much structure to keep the wall spreading as i would like. i am, as you say, still studying the structure to see what it needs. in a post and beam building that works as it should, cabling should be redundant. but in a situation where its been repaired and perhaps modified, they might be required. they seem to be used alot in" house and garden"
style barn to home renovations. maybe they just like the look stainless cable gives them.
im at [email protected]
thanks


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

I have a ton of pictures, but I can't get to most of them right now. I just uploaded a few here.

http://photobucket.com/toddsbarn


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

I've never worked on this problem with a barn, but I've done some garages.
Just looking at this and thinking about how I'd tackle it, I figure the ridge sagging is what's pushing the walls out. Therefore, you need to push up the ridge as you pull in the walls. If the ridge isn't moving, then something else is giving way instead. Also, the mortised part of the top plate is the weakest part of the assembly. I would use an exterior plate that would put pressure on the top plate and the post supporting it. Eventually, when the components are aligned in their original position, I'd use steel reinforcement plates on either side of the post and the beam, bolted together.
I also would use a cable at least on each beam to pull the walls together, and adjust each one as necessary until they come together.
Now as far as what size cable, I would imagine a 3/8" would hold a lot of weight but I don't know for sure. My concern is as much for the eye bolts and other components as the cable, but, since the structure slid out of alignment, then it should be able to slide back


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... You'll need cabling that equals the strength of whatever yer doin' the pulling with...
> A 2 ton come-a-long needs atleast 2 ton cabling...


By industry standards you need at a minimum of 5 to 1 safety factor.
Goggle "riggers card" and it should help you to determine what you need,a 3/8 straight out isn't going to give you much.
Forget the straps they are dangerous,I would use at a minimum of 5/8's" cabling.
And you can use angle iron with a piece of steel pipe cut length wise over the angle iron to help break the cable over your 90 degree pulls.
I'll tell you right now when you start doing this and have multiple cables under tension and you part one you're done,I don't think you realise how much weight you have


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

"straps are dangerous"

hmmm. Kind of a blanket statement, don't you think? What kind of straps did I point him to? Were they towing straps? Because that's an important detail to consider when giving this advice. The answer, btw, is NO. I certainly agree that safety is vital, but rigging needs on a moving truck with a load are not necessarily required for temporary home projects like this. Shifting loads puts an incredible load on a strap that simply doesn't happen when trying to pull a wall back by a few inches.

If you read up on the difference between pulling and lifting, you'll find that predicting required strength is quite a challenge, unlike lifting. Combined with the fact that the "weight" of a barn's structure is "unknown", as is the resistance to pulling, the planning process becomes quite complicated. You can't tell someone that a strap is less safe than a steel cable when you don't know the specifics of their pull. A 1 ton strap (example) being used to pull with a 200 LB force (example) is NOT UNSAFE! 

Finally, if structural issues are causing the structure to shift, correcting those issues can significantly ease the pulling requirements.


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

one major thing to remember here is that for such a large structure there is actually little weight. no sheetrock, no subfloor no floor, and a 29 guage roof. and because its post and beam the roof is mostly point loaded down from a purlin to an uncompromised 30' long 11' x 14'. so unlike a stick frame structure the walls do not want to spread under the roofload.
making sure the core of each bent is tight and in tension, and throwing up multiple braces and cabling to keep the corners from opening once the barn is jacked to replace the sill is going to be sufficient. straps are fine but they do stretch. 
there are many forces at work and thats the fun.i will check out riggers card. and i have slings for wrapping posts for pulling. im using 1/4 galv. aircraft cable because i got 500 ' for free, and thats that.


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## yetiwagon (Apr 27, 2012)

also, the structural issues occurred over time the same way most barns are destroyed: neglect. once the roof goes, the structure is exposed to a decade or more of constant moisture, freeze thaw, and...... with a new roof and some pressure treated sills and some steel to help some old joints its going to be happy. 
im starting work tomorrow till wed. thanks for all the help and i'll post a shot or two.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

tbeaulieu said:


> "straps are dangerous"


In your application they can be deadly,all it takes is a nick while under tension and she's ripping to shreds and yes wood will tear up your straps or slings.
You can not and should not ever try to break a strap over,that is where the advantage of using cable comes into play.
Straps and slings are safe if used properly and will not take the abuse that steel cabling will.




tbeaulieu said:


> If you read up on the difference between pulling and lifting, you


Let me clear this up for you,I have over 30 year experience in the _*"Heavy Lift industry"*_ I am not trying to be a dick about this but what you did was complex and serious.
Here is a good source for you to read up about pulling and lifting http://www.mazzellalifting.com/


tbeaulieu said:


> How did I decide on the 4" straps?
> 
> I partly *guessed*. I read a lot and stumbled across the straps and thought they were a *good price* and strength. I talked with various people that are much smarter than I am and the concensus was that they would *probably* be fine. Remember, there's a big difference in required effort to *lift an object, versus pulling it. *


I am not trying to take away from the job you did because I know you put a lot of work into it and the end result was satisfying,but I will say this,the statements you make are dangerous and could get a person killed if they apply your knowledge to their application.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Sounds like this post may unwind faster than a nicked lifting strap.

I read this from front to back and sounds like a very interesting project and one worth posting. I am sure the dangers in doing this kind of work will not be overlooked, I am sure that is why this post was created to begin with.

Someone looking for advice, tbeaulieu, thanks for the post it is informative and what a project!, would you do it again? There are lots of barns out there that need some TLC.

Mark


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Ok I surrender. You know nothing about how much tension was required to pull my walls in, yet you know I was wrong.

Maybe in 30 years I will be as wise. I'll hang my shingle, which will read:

"Wisdom for sale. Details not required."


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## JPaulin (Aug 7, 2012)

*Nice Work*

It looks like you're doing a lot of good for that barn. Any recent updates? I'm actually going doing many of the same things to my barn just south of Boston. If you get a minute, shoot me an e-mail ([email protected]) I'd like to compare notes. Thanks


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