# Wall rock hung from bottom up??



## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

I hired a contractor to help me hang the sheetrock on my 1st floor. We got the ceilings done today successfully. But when it came time to do the walls we butt heads. I wanted to hang it from the top down to get as tight as I could to the ceiling. He said in the 40 years hes been working it's always been bottom up and hes never heard of top down and that by starting on bottom you have a ridge to balance the top hoard on. We couldn't agree so I called it quits for the day. Has anyone heard of this? He also didnt want to stagger the butt joints and said it wasn't necessary. Maybe I was taught wrong. Is there a standard?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> I hired a contractor to help me hang the sheetrock on my 1st floor. We got the ceilings done today successfully. But when it came time to do the walls we butt heads. I wanted to hang it from the top down to get as tight as I could to the ceiling. He said in the 40 years hes been working it's always been bottom up and hes never heard of top down and that by starting on bottom you have a ridge to balance the top hoard on. We couldn't agree so I called it quits for the day. Has anyone heard of this? He also didnt want to stagger the butt joints and said it wasn't necessary. Maybe I was taught wrong. Is there a standard?


 I guess you could argue about staggered joints. You can make him happy by screwing a board to the wall to set the top sheet on. 

Then you can ask him what a dry wall foot jack is made for. 

https://www.amazon.ca/3000-Pentagon...ocphy=9001484&hvtargid=pla-569824090002&psc=1


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > I hired a contractor to help me hang the sheetrock on my 1st floor. We got the ceilings done today successfully. But when it came time to do the walls we butt heads. I wanted to hang it from the top down to get as tight as I could to the ceiling. He said in the 40 years hes been working it's always been bottom up and hes never heard of top down and that by starting on bottom you have a ridge to balance the top hoard on. We couldn't agree so I called it quits for the day. Has anyone heard of this? He also didnt want to stagger the butt joints and said it wasn't necessary. Maybe I was taught wrong. Is there a standard?
> ...


Exactly! And I own one. He actually has one as well. I told him that the whole point of that tool is to push the lower sheetrock up against the board that hanging above it. He said that it's to raise the bottom board to a level where you would then Mount the top board on top of. So basically he said if the Wall height is 8 ft 2 in you would use that to raise the bottom board up to in and then screwed into the wall and then put the top board on that. Arguing with his logic hurt my head. But I was open to being the wrong one. I just don't understand how he's trying to argue that every drywall contractor he's known has done it from the bottom up. I've literally never heard of that. Have you?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> Exactly! And I own one. He actually has one as well. I told him that the whole point of that tool is to push the lower sheetrock up against the board that hanging above it. He said that it's to raise the bottom board to a level where you would then Mount the top board on top of. So basically he said if the Wall height is 8 ft 2 in you would use that to raise the bottom board up to in and then screwed into the wall and then put the top board on that. Arguing with his logic hurt my head. But I was open to being the wrong one. I just don't understand how he's trying to argue that every drywall contractor he's known has done it from the bottom up. I've literally never heard of that. Have you?


So he wants to not stagger then so if he has a crooked one he doesn't end up with a gap in the middle. They always fit. It's likely not worth the fight.If he's being doing it for years just go ahead at least until it screws up.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> He said in the 40 years hes been working it's always been bottom up and hes never heard of top down and that by starting on bottom you have a ridge to balance the top hoard on



So in 40 yrs he's never hung drywall professionally or seen it done ???
I'd hate to see what a wall or ceiling would look like without staggered joints! or be the finisher that would have to try and make it look right.
If he insists on doing the bottom first I'd consider hiring someone else.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

mark sr said:


> > He said in the 40 years hes been working it's always been bottom up and hes never heard of top down and that by starting on bottom you have a ridge to balance the top hoard on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I forced him to stagger the joints with me on the ceiling. But it was a very tense moment. He said sheetrock is not structural so you don't have to stagger it like you do with subfloor joints. I told him it was more of a matter of the finishing so you don't have one big butt joint going across. He agreed to do that but still didn't think I was correct.

Starting from the bottom up is bothering me because we are supposed to go back at it again today. He told me that what difference does it make if you start on the bottom since cutting the sheetrock on the ceiling side isn't going to matter since it's going to be taped. I told him that it's better to start at the top and have a little Gap at the bottom because it's going to be covered by baseboard. I couldn't give him a good explanation as to why you start at the top other than be able to get the sheetrock nice and tight against the ceiling. Can you give me some talking points to give him to show why you start at the top and go down? If he keeps insisting on starting from the bottom up I am going to let him go. He is just assisting me but I don't need to get stressed out because I want to do it right and he wants to do it another way.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

He failed drywall course 101. USG hand Book dated 1978 Page 100 gives very detailed instructions on hanging drywall & staggering the joints. He may have looked at the picture upside down.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Installing the top piece first helps to get a tight fit against the ceiling. It also gives the perimeter of the ceiling drywall a tad more support. Any discrepancies at the bottom are hid by baseboard. You should always leave about a 1/2" gap at the bottom so the drywall won't suck up any liquid that might get spilt on the floor.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Only ones I've seen hang drywall the way he's suggesting is a DIY homeowner.
If the ceilings 8'2" I order some sheets of wider drywall, far easyier than trying to finish a narrow seam that keeps flexing.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

I'd hire someone new rather than butt heads with this guy, he's not going to change or give in.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I missed the 8'2" reference, instead of using a drywall ripper or buying 54" drywall - I'd rip 1/2" plywood in 1.5"-2" strips and install it at the bottom. The base board will cover it and won't be so fussy about where you nail it.


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## Spyder (Jan 11, 2019)

mark sr said:


> I missed the 8'2" reference, instead of using a drywall ripper or buying 54" drywall - I'd rip 1/2" plywood in 1.5"-2" strips and install it at the bottom. The base board will cover it and won't be so fussy about where you nail it.


That works. Another alternative is get 3/8 rock and cut 2" strips and put it the seam between the boards for a bigger taper.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

Top down, always. Others, you'll end up with a cut edge either in the middle or at the top where you're going to mud.

A man or large women, can lift a 4X8 sheet and push it tight to the ceiling, hold it and set two screws with the other hand. Granted, as I got older, I'd start the screws before lifting the panel.

Obviously, having a helper makes it much faster.

The goal is to support the ceiling at the edges and give a tight joint while providing clean, uncut, edges to the next panel.

Staggered panels is also the norm, as done by professionals, since one common goal of all construction trades is to NEVER line up the ends of material.

Sadly, after I started hanging rock 38 years ago, and getting taught by some tough French-Canadians, this fellow was taught wrong.

I'd also be interested if he knows the approved nailing/screw patterns to use...


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> A man or large women, can lift a 4X8 sheet and push it tight to the ceiling, hold it and set two screws with the other hand. Granted, as I got older, I'd start the screws before lifting the panel.



I do the same thing but with nails. It's a lot easier to knock a few nails in while you hold the drywall in place. If the nails are along the edge the tape will cover them up and there shouldn't be any nail pops. Use screws on the rest once the sheet is secured enough to let go.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> He said sheetrock is not structural so you don't have to stagger it like you do with subfloor joints.



He's missing the point, and he's wrong on several of these things. He's one of these guys that learned a certain way, and he thinks that's the only way. I basically never work with guys who are dogmatic like this.


Regarding the wall drywall, the primary reason to hang the top boards first is that they naturally support the ceiling drywall when pressed tight to it. Ceiling drywall obviously will tend to sag which is a problem wall drywall doesn't have. It might not be an issue, but why fight it? Get everything working in your favor.


The next reason is that it gets everything lined up perfectly without measuring everything. Where exactly is he going to install the ledger board? You have to measure that, which takes time, plus the cost of the wood, plus the time it takes to install. Yes, once in place it does help a bit with putting the drywall in place, but this is more an issue when working alone, not with help, which is basically how all drywall crews work. That's why they're called crews.


So you put the top boards in, then the bottom boards tight up against the top, and all the extra space is at the bottom where it makes no difference and you don't have to measure anything. No one cares if there is a 1" gap down here or a 1/2" gap.


Finally with regard to staggering the drywall, no obviously it's not structural. But neither is cement board under tile. The reason you stagger the joints is because those are weak spots (whether you're dealing with something structural or not). This is the same reason you don't want to cut drywall around your doors. You install it like this (seam on top)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/6a/3d/de6a3d58aa5c1a48538a559b96d77b77.gif


or this (no seam)
https://www.rona.ca/documents/ronaR...s/Install-drywall-cut-door-window-opening.jpg


But not like this
https://cdnassets.hw.net/dims4/GG/1d1caa9/2147483647/thumbnail/416x277%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F1f%2F0e%2F0dfd5aae45738576c9de8ded81d7%2Ffire-rating-article.jpg


Because that leads to this
https://cottagelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/crack-in-ceiling-drywall-seam-1024x520.jpg


Does this mean your wall is going to fall down (structural)? No, but it looks like crap. That's why there are building codes for framing, but not for drywall finishing or painting. Those are aesthetic things, but the same physics is at work and so the same principles apply.


You might not always be able to avoid it, but solid drywall helps. And staggering the joints avoids a quadruple joint. You can't avoid T joints, but you can avoid plus signs. Ts are less weak. Will the plus sign joint crack? Probably not if you do it well, but it's a little more likely than the T joint.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Domo said:


> Top down, always. Others, you'll end up with a cut edge either in the middle or at the top where you're going to mud.



This isn't necessarily really the issue, assuming you measured first. Presumably if the wall were for some reason shorter than 96" (which it shouldn't be), then you should figure that out ahead of time and cut the bottom piece to fit before installing. Then the cut edge still goes on the bottom, under the baseboard.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Domo said:


> Top down, always. Others, you'll end up with a cut edge either in the middle or at the top where you're going to mud.
> 
> A man or large women, can lift a 4X8 sheet and push it tight to the ceiling, hold it and set two screws with the other hand. Granted, as I got older, I'd start the screws before lifting the panel.
> 
> ...


I know he is following the screw pattern that is marked on the sheetrock boards. Not sure if that it's supposed to be the same that used in ceilings or more screw should go up there? And like I said I insisted on doing the Stagger joints. He finally said well it's your house so we'll do it how you want but just know that it's wrong.

On a positive note he's really good with the Rotozip. He doesn't always go around counterclockwise but he makes it look pretty clean. He starts counter-clockwise on the inside but then cleans it up going in the opposite direction around the outside perimeter of the boxes.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> This isn't necessarily really the issue, assuming you measured first. Presumably if the wall were for some reason shorter than 96" (which it shouldn't be), then you should figure that out ahead of time and cut the bottom piece to fit before installing. Then the cut edge still goes on the bottom, under the baseboard.


Correct, the issue is that the fellow is installing it wrong. Sorry I distracted everyone by throwing in the possibility of a cut edge being less than desirable in the field of the wall. Granted, the worker can do additional work and calculation to cut the bottom piece so that the whole upper piece can fit perfectly - however, additional work and adding more possible errors to the job are certainly not the point, either.

We're talking about hanging sheetrock quickly and efficiently, not rocket science. Back in the day, my boss used to say (about sheetrock); "Stop thinking about it - we could have the job done already."


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Domo said:


> We're talking about hanging sheetrock quickly and efficiently, not rocket science. Back in the day, my boss used to say (about sheetrock); "Stop thinking about it - we could have the job done already."



Yes, this is like what golf teachers teach. You should be thinking about changes to your swing on the driving range, not the course. When you play, you should be thinking about your shot, not your swing. The time to talk about changing your technique and learning new things is here on the forum, etc., not on a job. And homeowners should not be the ones teaching the pros :wink2:


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> Yes, this is like what golf teachers teach. You should be thinking about changes to your swing on the driving range, not the course. When you play, you should be thinking about your shot, not your swing. The time to talk about changing your technique and learning new things is here on the forum, etc., not on a job. And homeowners should not be the ones teaching the pros :wink2:


I heartily agree - I'm amazed and amused by some of the questions that are posted and quickly realize that the folks really never had the chance to learn any trade and do need the best help we can give.


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## chrisso (Mar 18, 2019)

Been doing sheetrock for about 45 years- never did it from the bottom up, and always staggered the joints unless it was something very weird.


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## cynic (Jun 23, 2017)

Everyone I know goes bottom up. Yep you get a place to hold the next sheet on when hanging.
I've never seen top down.
Unless it's a weird wall height, it should be pretty close to tight..
Besides that is what trim/moulding it for as well.

I built plenty of houses in my younger days...


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Oh, so you're the guy who built the houses where the owners keep hiring me to fix stuff!!


With a crew of 2 or more, you don't need a ledge to hang your drywall on. If "everyone" you know goes bottom up and you've "never seen" top down, then you hardly know anyone and you don't get out much 


Y'all, read page 13.
https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG...-gypsum-panels-installation-guide-en-J371.pdf


I swear, the cliche is really true - no one ever reads the effing manual.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

chrisso said:


> Been doing sheetrock for about 45 years- never did it from the bottom up, and always staggered the joints unless it was something very weird.


Just wanted to update everybody that I insisted on him hanging it from the top down with me. He actually likes it better than his original process that he said he was used to doing of going from the bottom up.

As I mentioned in my original post, all of the sheetrock installers I have known always went from the top down. Since my house is 90 years old some of the joists in the ceiling have settled so they're not perfectly flat or level. Using a laser level we set that at 48 in and then measure up to the ceiling. So for example if we are putting up a 12 foot sheet and on one side of the room it is at 48 in to the ceiling but then we get to the other side and it's actually 47, we will transcribe that and cut it out from the top of the sheetrock. When we push it up against the ceiling we are still perfectly level and the sheetrock is scribed to the angle of the drop in the ceiling. Any little gaps are hidden after we put the bottom sheet on by the baseboard.

Where possible I've used the longer boards to eliminate any butt joints across the room. Some of the sheets we are using are 14 ft long and 5/8 of an inch thick. They are heavy enough that between the two of us it's still very awkward to hold up against the ceiling and screw. So I built a couple of shelves with a 2 by 3 and a 1 by 4 on the flat that we temporarily set just below the 48 inch mark from the ceiling by screwing to the studs. Once we lift the sheet up we set it on the Shelf and then use our drywall lift pedals on the Shelf to push it up tight. We've got a routine now so we go around the room getting all of the top sheets on first and then the bottom just goes quickly.

I've also insisted that we stagger the joints. So far we've got everything on the bottom floor completed except for the living room and the foyer. It's looking great and the taper is going to love us. My plumber actually came in to do some work not knowing that we were doing the hanging and asked who the sheetrockers were because "they are tight." Made me feel like we are doing a pretty good job so far. Not bad for a first-time installer I think. Thanks again for all the input!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> Since my house is 90 years old some of the joists in the ceiling have settled so they're not perfectly flat or level. Using a laser level we set that at 48 in and then measure up to the ceiling. So for example if we are putting up a 12 foot sheet and on one side of the room it is at 48 in to the ceiling but then we get to the other side and it's actually 47, we will transcribe that and cut it out from the top of the sheetrock. When we push it up against the ceiling we are still perfectly level and the sheetrock is scribed to the angle of the drop in the ceiling.



That sounds good.




RetroJoe_1 said:


> Where possible I've used the longer boards to eliminate any butt joints across the room. Some of the sheets we are using are 14 ft long and 5/8 of an inch thick. They are heavy enough that between the two of us it's still very awkward to hold up against the ceiling and screw.



I can imagine. Looks like you needed my solo ledger board even for 2 of you!


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## finisher65 (Apr 7, 2019)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> Just wanted to update everybody that I insisted on him hanging it from the top down with me. He actually likes it better than his original process that he said he was used to doing of going from the bottom up.
> 
> As I mentioned in my original post, all of the sheetrock installers I have known always went from the top down. Since my house is 90 years old some of the joists in the ceiling have settled so they're not perfectly flat or level. Using a laser level we set that at 48 in and then measure up to the ceiling. So for example if we are putting up a 12 foot sheet and on one side of the room it is at 48 in to the ceiling but then we get to the other side and it's actually 47, we will transcribe that and cut it out from the top of the sheetrock. When we push it up against the ceiling we are still perfectly level and the sheetrock is scribed to the angle of the drop in the ceiling. Any little gaps are hidden after we put the bottom sheet on by the baseboard.
> 
> ...


Glad he came around to your way of thinking since he's done it wrong for 40yrs. There's only 1 situation in residential construction where we hang from the bottom up.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

finisher65 said:


> There's only 1 situation in residential construction where we hang from the bottom up.



Oh god, the suspense is killing us....:vs_mad:


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## finisher65 (Apr 7, 2019)

Lol! Walls that terminate into the peak of cathedral & vaulted ceilings,


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