# Hydrogen peroxide water treatment



## Bill7 (Dec 18, 2009)

I have a similar problem, but live in NW MN. I was looking at systems, but just can't decide. They are all expensive.

Here is an article about different water problems and treatment options.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1045w.htm

I do the chlorine "shock treatment." 

http://www.well-water-treatment.com/shockcl2.htm 

although I have never done the measuring part, which may explain a few things...

Good luck


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## AaronF (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for giving me this link Bill - This is a great resource, and they actually explain things so most people can understand it.
My 1st system was very expensive too, but at least I saved on the install by doing it myself.


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## Bill7 (Dec 18, 2009)

AaronF,

Here is another link...

http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/mwsb/pdf/shockchlorination.pdf


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## arcticbouncer (Jan 24, 2010)

hydrogen peroxide huuu?? I have been doing residential and indus. water treatment for over 15 years now I would steer you towards hypochlorite injection it is easier to obtain the chemical and safer to deal with and store . I would not use the solid tablets though for your application I would use a chemical feeder pump like the stennar or the chem-tech 030 . From the well into the pressure tank to a chem injection port to the retention tank to the carbon tank to the house . But there are a few details you still need to work out.... how much iron, Ph , alkalinity, hardness, size of retention tank number of people, lots of little things. get som eof the info and I wil get you the numbes you need to make it work .


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I second the last post.:thumbsup:


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

Hi everyone. I am looking for some "experts" on residential water treatment that can steer me in the right direction. 
*I hope I can help you a little. Sorry for being so late.*

I live about 26 miles west of Chicago and draw my water from a private well. Unfortunately the raw water from the well is terrible - there is a high amount of iron, hydrogen sulfide, and manganese (and associated stink and staining!). 
*Saying your iron, sulfur, etc. is HIGH is OK but actual numbers would be a great help. In my area we have both high iron (0.1-7ppm) and sulfur (0 - 60ppm!). *

I have tried many things to make my water "perfect" which is my goal, and I am now leaning towards Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxidizer but need some guidance.
*I have used H202 for many years. It is not a simple solution but very* *effective and requires little babysitting. I find that creates less fallout than chlorine.*

I currently have a dry pellet in-line chlorinator, retention/contact tank, and a backwashing centaur carbon filter. It has worked decent for a couple years, but the carbon is shot, and chlorine and iron is getting through the system. 
*How big is your retention tank? you'll need at least 20-minutes of contact time. The are smaller tanks that have mixing tubs inside. I prefer the larger tanks for contact time and drainage. How often do you drain the tank? Monthly?*

Maintenance is also a pain, because I have to disassemble and soak parts of the chlorine "hopper" in muriatic acid about every 2 months. 
*Yes, I have heard this from others. When you mix iron containing water with bleach used as an oxidizer, it converts the iron from a ferrous state to ferric, or clear to rusty sediment. The pellet feeder, whcih holds the pellets, comes into contact woith the water and converts the iron right there in the 'hopper'.* 

I am specifically looking at a Stenner Proportional Injection System (http://www.stenner.com/specs-proinjectsys.htm) but don't know much about the unit, or using peroxide as an oxidiser. I am looking for something a little more reliable and durable than my current system, and also a little more "non toxic". I am also not sure about the ongoing costs or amount of peroxide used in such a system.
*I use the Stenner as it is an excellent tool, very easy to adjust and repair (tube changing). We use a 7% solution. As for maintenance costs, again, numbers are essential. Number of people, iron, and other water conditions. Do you have any other equipment such as a softener?*

I would really appreciate if anyone has any helpful information on this Stenner unit, or knows of an honest "peroxide specialist" around the Chicago area. 
*Sorry, I don't know anyone in that area.*

*Andy Christensen, CWS-II*

Thanks - Aaron[/quote]


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Andy CWS said:


> Maintenance is also a pain, because I have to disassemble and soak parts of the chlorine "hopper" in muriatic acid about every 2 months.
> *Yes, I have heard this from others. When you mix iron containing water with bleach used as an oxidizer, it converts the iron from a ferrous state to ferric, or clear to rusty sediment. The pellet feeder, whcih holds the pellets, comes into contact woith the water and converts the iron right there in the 'hopper'.*


I've not heard of or seen that problem and I've been selling that system for 15 years on up to and over 10 ppm of iron.


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## arcticbouncer (Jan 24, 2010)

MY bet is if you check your water you have high alkalinity . That is what is precipitating out of solution and attaching to your parts i have seen and treated it with sucess.


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## AaronF (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the input Andy. Here are some additional details based on your questions:

An Underwriters Laboratories DrinkWell Water Test (www.uldrinkwell.com) of my water provided the following results a few years ago:
Nitrate = Not Detected
Nitrite = Not Detected
Turbidity = 34 NTU
Total Alkalinity = 300 mg/L as CaCO3
Total Hardness = 480 mg/L as CaCO3
Iron = 5.4 mg/L
Manganese = 34 ug/L
pH = 7.2
Sodium = 71 mg/L

My retention tank is a: 12" x 65" polyglass special mixing/retention tank sold by Quality Water Associates (I noticed Gary also commented - Gary, can you elaborate on the mixing tank?) 

I drain a few gallons from the tank at minimum once a week. At one point, I was automatically flushing it for a minute every day with timed diaphragm valve to minimize the amount of iron getting to my carbon, but I gave up on this and went back to manually flushing. (I am still wondering if I should make a setup with an electrically actuated ball valve operated by a timed relay to flush the iron to the drain before it goes into the carbon tank to minimize fouling potential.) 

After the mixing tank, I go into a 1.5' centaur carbon filter, and then into a 1.5' softener. From the softener - it goes to the house. 

Currently there are only two people in the house. It is a 3 bed / 1.5 bath house. Some of the usage info from the softener meter is:
- Maximum flow rate since start up = 11.4 gal/minute
- In operation for 1168 days w/ 153,000 gallons used (131 gallons / day average) 
- Has regenerated 217 times in 1168 days (average every 5.4 days) 

Is there any information I may be missing to see if peroxide is a feasible solution? 

Thanks - Aaron


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

You told me on my forum that you allowed the hopper to run out of pellets. As I told you that leads to ruined carbon.

Now I hear that you have not been blowing down the mixing tank once a month as I told you to and with as much water as needed to get the water as clear as possible. 

This one minute once a day is not right and probably causes inadequate cleaning of the rust off the bottom of the tank. That one minute flow would probably allow rust to build up away from the drain and eventually get out of the tank into the carbon. It also will cause the chlorine solution strength in the tank to be changed. The strength of the chlorine in the tank is important, and draining a minute every day is probably messing that volume (strength) up because the pump wouldn't have to run during the draining, plus the chlorinator only works for part of the pump run time and you are flushing with less than the max water pressure, unless no water had been used since the last time the pump shut off. 

Until you replace the carbon, the system can not and will not work. So you might as well empty the chlorine out of the hopper and by pass the carbon filter and reprogram the softener for the amount of hardness, iron and manganese you have. 

You would do that after 2 back to back manual regenerations at 23 lbs of salt and no water use during or between the two. And you should pour a solution of a 1/2 cup of Iron Out in 2 gals of water down the brine well before each of the manual regenerations. Your pre refill and 2 hr pause will dissolve salt doing it that way.


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## AaronF (Apr 10, 2009)

Gary - Your comments indicate some of the reasons that I am researching alternate systems... I'm sure it works great for some people, but I haven't had the greatest of luck. Like I mentioned, I need something a little more robust that will not get ruined if there is to much or not enough chlorine, especially when the actual feed rate is somewhat unpredictable. This is one of the reasons I think I would prefer a system that has the ability to accurately control the dose of the oxidizer. Relying strictly on variance in system pressure will not yield consistent results, especially when various amounts of water are being used in each well pump cycle. 

After flushing the retention tank for about a minute, the water runs clear. The first 15-20 seconds are extremely dirty, but after that - clear with chlorine smell. This tells me that it is not necessary to keep flushing water through - right? Run until clear? I don't see the need to flush 20 gallons of chlorinated water down the drain if in fact it is clear...

The point of this post is to understand more and educate myself and others about treatment systems using peroxide as an alternative to chlorine. Can you add anything to this subject matter? As I mentioned before, I am satisfied with the service you have provided to me and happy with the softener, and respect your industry knowledge. I am not trying to talk others out of or slam the system you sell...

Aaron


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

Thanks for the input Andy. Here are some additional details based on your questions:

An Underwriters Laboratories DrinkWell Water Test (www.uldrinkwell.com) of my water provided the following results a few years ago:
Nitrate = Not Detected
Nitrite = Not Detected
Turbidity = 34 NTU
Total Alkalinity = 300 mg/L as CaCO3
Total Hardness = 480 mg/L as CaCO3
Iron = 5.4 mg/L
Manganese = 34 ug/L
pH = 7.2
Sodium = 71 mg/L
*Your iron can be considered 'problem' water. Special considerations need to be taken and systems that may work at lower levels may not work at elevated levels. *

*Your hardness is under 30 grains and, although considered extremely hard, it is not challenging on its own. Your softener is big enough to handle the hardness for two people if set properly. By-passing the iron filtering system will greatly increase the softener's work load and may need to regen every two days---or more.*

*Calculating iron (ferrous iron only) for removal by the softener will greatly increase your total compensated hardness (TCH). *

*I believe you can simply by-pass the carbon filter but the retention tank and pellet feeder don't have that built in to it, right? You would need to leave the feeder empty and just let the water pass through the retention tank. *

*If you do that and drain the retention tank later, you should notice a great drop n precipitated iron...but some may still be created in the retention tank. Any that is not flushed out may be passed through to the softener, which is not designed to handle that type of iron.*

My retention tank is a: 12" x 65" polyglass special mixing/retention tank sold by Quality Water Associates 
*This tank has an 'oxidizer' inside. It is basically a tube that mixes the chemical and water by swirling it and blending it more evenly. It should give the chemical an accelerated reaction for precipitatin of the iron causing that sediment to the bottom of the tank.*

*I believe 'time' is still an important factor in completing the precipitation I have found that 20+ minutes of contact time is adequate, in most cases, to precipitate. Rule of thumb is the shorter the contact time, the more concentration of chemical feed.*

*Understanding the differences between the free chlorine and total chlorine levels is also beneficial.*

I drain a few gallons from the tank at minimum once a week. At one point, I was automatically flushing it for a minute every day with timed diaphragm valve to minimize the amount of iron getting to my carbon, but I gave up on this and went back to manually flushing. 
*Flushing the retention tank is a very important part of your on-going maintenance--and many do not bother to do. Why did you give up on the automatic setting? How did doing it manually improve it...or did it?*

(I am still wondering if I should make a setup with an electrically actuated ball valve operated by a timed relay to flush the iron to the drain before it goes into the carbon tank to minimize fouling potential.) 
*That may help because consistency is important with that set up. You want to avoid iron precipitation from getting into the carbon bed as much as possible. The primary purpose of the of the carbon bed is to rid the water of free chlorine. Dumping iron into it can foul the carbon.*

After the mixing tank, I go into a 1.5' centaur carbon filter, and then into a 1.5' softener. From the softener - it goes to the house. 
*The equipment is fine and should work as designed and intended by the manufacturer. Centaur carbon is also a higher quality that typical GAC carbon. *

*We always put a test port between the retention tank and the backwashing filter to monitor free chlorine strength for adjustments. With your present system I wonder if you can do that. Can your pellet feeder destinguish between dealing with and adjusting for 0.5ppm and 5.0ppm iron? Is there a test port between the pellet feeder and the retention tank to check total chlorine?*

*Being able for the owner to monitor the system may seem to some unnecessary, but most of my customers actually like the ability to understand what's happening to their water and have the ability to adjust treatment to changing conditions.*

*Here is a schematic (without PCM --intended to handle volumes of untreated water):*









Currently there are only two people in the house. It is a 3 bed / 1.5 bath house. Some of the usage info from the softener meter is:
- Maximum flow rate since start up = 11.4 gal/minute
- In operation for 1168 days w/ 153,000 gallons used (131 gallons / day average) 
*That averages around 65 gallons per person per day. This what many sources suggest as a natioanl average, so your water use is not unusual or exceptional. Your max flow rate may happen on occasions but would not be considered consistent, would you agree?*

- Has regenerated 217 times in 1168 days (average every 5.4 days) 
*Do you have any salt quantities here?* *I have been informed previously that these are sold to regen every 7-8 days. It appears that this is cleaning itself in excess of that while not factoring in iron removal.*

Is there any information I may be missing to see if peroxide is a feasible solution? 
*What is your water pressure range and size of your pressure tank? Do you ample space at your location or are you struglling for space?*

*Some of the same equipment you are using now can be used in an H202 system but may need to be serviced and brought back up to capacities.*

*Do you use much water outside for irrigaion, gardening, etc.?*

*I noticed the Stenner system you posted. That is a very complete system and all parts may not be needed depending on your water use and intentions. It is a very professional set up and it won't be cheap but it should work as designed.*


Thanks - Aaron


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

AaronF said:


> Gary - Your comments indicate some of the reasons that I am researching alternate systems... I'm sure it works great for some people, but I haven't had the greatest of luck. Like I mentioned, I need something a little more robust that will not get ruined if there is to much or not enough chlorine, especially when the actual feed rate is somewhat unpredictable.


Aaron, you allowed it to run without chlorine for some time. 

Its operation has nothing to do with luck. Or it not being as robust as you think it should be. 

The feed rate of the chlorine at the minimum setting is all that is needed for your water and you are not taking into account that the mixing tank has a high strength chlorine content as long as there are pellets in the hopper. 

That strength cuts down the retention time required and that prevents the need for tighter control of the chlorine dose or a constant dosage.

Run it out of chlorine (or a new system's peroxide) and the carbon must do the job of the chlorine and it will fail, as yours has. Once that starts, nothing you do will revive the system short of replacing the carbon. Go too long you'll ruin the softener's resin.



AaronF said:


> This is one of the reasons I think I would prefer a system that has the ability to accurately control the dose of the oxidizer. Relying strictly on variance in system pressure will not yield consistent results, especially when various amounts of water are being used in each well pump cycle.


I beg to differ and that is based on selling this system for roughly 15 yrs on water such as yours and much worse, including constant feed with hundreds of gals of water periodically going into up to 5000 gal cisterns, or for apartment buildings etc.. 

The only customers that have had problems are those that let it run out of pellets.



AaronF said:


> After flushing the retention tank for about a minute, the water runs clear. The first 15-20 seconds are extremely dirty, but after that - clear with chlorine smell. This tells me that it is not necessary to keep flushing water through - right? Run until clear? I don't see the need to flush 20 gallons of chlorinated water down the drain if in fact it is clear...


But if you did the once per month as per my instructions, you'd save 10+ gals of water because a 1 minute run out of a 3/4" line per day for 30 days is using more water (and chlorine), right? Anyway, this isn't going to make the carbon better.



AaronF said:


> The point of this post is to understand more and educate myself and others about treatment systems using peroxide as an alternative to chlorine. Can you add anything to this subject matter? As I mentioned before, I am satisfied with the service you have provided to me and happy with the softener, and respect your industry knowledge. I am not trying to talk others out of or slam the system you sell...


Well I think I am adding a lot to the discussion because if you would replace the carbon as I suggested a month or more ago, you would save yourself maybe $1500+ and a lot of aggravation in researching, buying and installing new equipment that based on what I hear from some dealers that have used peroxide, makes me think it will not work as well as the system you have. 

But a solution feeder with peroxide will give you something to micromanage and fiddle with.... but be unlucky and leave it run out of peroxide and you'll ruin your new Centaur carbon filter too. :wink:

And be prepared to test your water frequently and adjust the feeder periodically.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

And, here we go again. Andy. It seems to me that the system that you have is either not performing to your expectations or that it requires more maintenance than you are willing to put into it. Either way you and you alone are going to have to make a decision and live with it. I have used peroxide with success on many occasions. The equipment is expensive but it performs well and the particular Stenner set up you are looking at operates on demand so there is not a lot of "fiddling" that needs to be done, though you must maintain chemical. Sorry that your thread is degenerating into the usual argument but it seems to go with the terratory lately.


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

nhmaster, no worries. Sometimes you have to weather the storm. This is what contributes to a fine forum and leads people to be helped.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II





Thank you scuba_dave


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I love Nathans forums. I think I belong to like 4 of them. They are without a doubt the best moderated forums out there.


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## AaronF (Apr 10, 2009)

To everyone interested, I was informed of a link that discusses peroxide in detail. It gets a little deep into chemistry, but I feel it is a good "useful" contribution to this thread for people that are looking to get a better understanding. 

http://www.essentialwater.net/support-information/hydrogen-peroxide-a-real-treat-for-well-water

Gary - I understand that running out of chlorine is going to damage the carbon, and have tried my best to minimize this, especially considering I have an electronic timer above the unit counting down the estimated days until refiling is required. It is obvious when there is no chlorine present, considering the immediate change in quality. It is not pleasant to use this water untreated...

How is one able to check the chlorine level in this system to ensure this does not happen? Can this be done easily? One clear advantage of other systems is that the chemical is visible, and an immediate indicator of the amount left. This could help eliminate running out of the chemical (assuming one is still diligent enough to look regularly).


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

AaronF said:


> To everyone interested, I was informed of a link that discusses peroxide in detail. It gets a little deep into chemistry, but I feel it is a good "useful" contribution to this thread for people that are looking to get a better understanding.
> 
> http://www.essentialwater.net/support-information/hydrogen-peroxide-a-real-treat-for-well-water


I didn't read the whole article because I found some errors in it but... I have been told by dealers that have used hydrogen peroxide in solution feeders as you are talking about going to, that you can't use peroxide for IRB or other reducing types of bacteria containing aerobic bacteria. I hadn't seen any mention of aerobic types so I used my browser search on the entire article for the word aerobic and there is no mention of just aerobic bacteria, only anaerobic. 

You may want to ask why before you use peroxide for your water. 

And in this thread you have me and another dealer with extensive experience with IRB suggesting that you don't use peroxide. And then you have a couple others that are suggesting it more to disagree with me than for your benefit.



AaronF said:


> Gary - I understand that running out of chlorine is going to damage the carbon, and have tried my best to minimize this, ... It is obvious when there is no chlorine present, considering the immediate change in quality. ... It is not pleasant to use this water untreated...


What you seem to not understand is that the carbon was being ruined for quite some time before you would have been able to see any evidence of it. And since the time the first evidence showed up, there has been only one thing you could do to correct the problem, that was to replace the Centaur, nothing else would improve anything. 

Centaur alone, without chlorine or peroxide or ozone, removes H2S and since it is catalytic, it will actually oxidize some iron. It will not kill any type of bacteria, and especially aerobic types, but will provide all types of bacteria a great place to multiply. The iron and IRB is the killer of all kinds of carbon, not chlorine anywhere as much as iron and bacteria. 



AaronF said:


> How is one able to check the chlorine level in this system to ensure this does not happen? Can this be done easily? One clear advantage of other systems is that the chemical is visible, and an immediate indicator of the amount left. This could help eliminate running out of the chemical (assuming one is still diligent enough to look regularly).


There is no way to check the chlorine level except to open the hopper and look. That's why you do it on a timed basis, that is before the pellets run out and/or before there is too little chlorine in the mixing tank to kill all the bacteria and oxidize all the iron etc.. 

Also, it has been mentioned here by someone with no experience with this equipment about testing for chlorine, and especially free chlorine. That is not needed, required or possible with this equipment because the volume of chlorine is constantly changing with your water use. 

A disadvantage of a solution feeder is that you must actually test for free residual in the treated water after the retention tank to make sure you are using the correct dose and you can't do that by looking at the volume of solution in the solution tank. And how do you know what the strength of the solution is?

It was also mentioned here about the mixing tank not providing a minimum of 20 minutes contact time; which was said to be required. This mixing tank is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank but not in size, it's in the internal patented design. The constant dose of chlorine is much much greater than you use in a solution feeder where you have to test for free chlorine to be sure it can work. So all the oxidation and bacteria kill is done in the mixing tank in a small volume of water, not on a specific minimum length of time as a retention tank requires.

You have an excellent and compact system with a long history of success but it has bad carbon. Change the carbon and don't let the pellets run out and drain off the bottom of the mixing tank as instructed and it works every time for years on end with minimal babysitting.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I didn't read where he had IRB, where is that coming from?


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

NHMaster said:


> I didn't read where he had IRB, where is that coming from?


 
Try it sometime. Create a problem that doesn't exist and it is easy to customize your solution. And you will always be right.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Thing is, I have read through the posts about 6 times now and see no mention of IRB in his water though it may be present. The major benefit to peroxide is that you don't use chlorine which has many adverse effects on health as well as piping ( especially pex tubing ) and plumbing fixtures. 

I think that the link posted is a pretty good overview of the situation and the reasons why chlorine injection is not necessarily a good idea. The fact that many many municipal water supplies have drastically cut back on the amount of chlorine they add to the water supply is pretty telling in itself. That said, chlorine will be around for some time if for no other reason than the lower cost of the equipment.


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## lilh2o3 (Jan 19, 2009)

Well i have a little bit more to ad to your discusion here. The problem you are going to have with hydrogen peroxide is that it has a ph of roughly 3, when you have iron in your water and you go oxidizing it with h2o2 it can hold the iron in solution and make it very hard to take out. it will pass through the carbon and also through the softener as well. The best thing to do if you would like to use h2o2 is to put a filter ag filter ahead of the carbon filter to catch the iron. But rather than messing around with that, I would put in a mag. greensand filter. Now i know that no one like these but they are the only thing that can take out iron and sulfur at the same time with one unit. Yeah you are going to have to clean the injector every 3-6 months but that can be delt with. As far as your original question of a peroxide specialist around chicago, I would recommend either Johnson h2o (Quad cities) or hicks gas company. But i can talk from expirence that having iron and sulfur can be a bear.


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

NHMaster said:


> Thing is, I have read through the posts about 6 times now and see no mention of IRB in his water though it may be present. The major benefit to peroxide is that you don't use chlorine which has many adverse effects on health as well as piping ( especially pex tubing ) and plumbing fixtures.
> 
> I think that the link posted is a pretty good overview of the situation and the reasons why chlorine injection is not necessarily a good idea. The fact that many many municipal water supplies have drastically cut back on the amount of chlorine they add to the water supply is pretty telling in itself. That said, chlorine will be around for some time if for no other reason than the lower cost of the equipment.


I have always maintained that if a customer has a problem with equipment/service, the last thing you want to do is badger him and do a lot of finger pointing in addition to making unfounded suppositions. 

No one benefits with aggressive attitudes. Professionals understand this and often turn unfortunate circumstances into those that are work and create satisfaction. Be patient and dignified.

Of course some owners are set in their ways and will never listen to sound advice. Nonetheless, to elevate oneself by belittling them serves no one.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

lilh2o3 said:


> Well i have a little bit more to ad to your discusion here. The problem you are going to have with hydrogen peroxide is that it has a ph of roughly 3, when you have iron in your water and you go oxidizing it with h2o2 it can hold the iron in solution and make it very hard to take out. it will pass through the carbon and also through the softener as well. The best thing to do if you would like to use h2o2 is to put a filter ag filter ahead of the carbon filter to catch the iron. But rather than messing around with that, I would put in a mag. greensand filter. Now i know that no one like these but they are the only thing that can take out iron and sulfur at the same time with one unit. Yeah you are going to have to clean the injector every 3-6 months but that can be delt with. As far as your original question of a peroxide specialist around chicago, I would recommend either Johnson h2o (Quad cities) or hicks gas company. But i can talk from expirence that having iron and sulfur can be a bear.


Green Sand would not be my top choice but there are times when it is the best solution to the problem. We don't do a lot of them but we still install probably 10 to 15 a year


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

Andy CWS said:


> I have always maintained that if a customer has a problem with equipment/service, the last thing you want to do is badger him and do a lot of finger pointing in addition to making unfounded suppositions.
> 
> No one benefits with aggressive attitudes. Professionals understand this and often turn unfortunate circumstances into those that are work and create satisfaction. Be patient and dignified.
> 
> ...


Being on the job site is VERY helpful too.

We do all the work on the wells and hook-ups, then go over things.

Once and a while I need to go back. I always do that with a smile.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

AaronF said:


> To everyone interested, I was informed of a link that discusses peroxide in detail.


All systems need some types of responsibility by the owner; some more than others. There is a not so subtle line between a "cure-all" system that needs almost no attention and a workable one that does. In the end you want something that works, albeit with some attention.

For example, I recommend prefilters on softeners. This requires the owner to change them once in a while. Time effort and costs are involved. Failure to properly maintain can cause issues. Many softeners that I have replaced and added a prefilter have found the owners very appreciative of the added equipment whenever they change the filter and find the horrible condition it is in. When benefits outweigh the negatives, then it can be considered a positive value. 

When it comes to troubled water such as yours, sometimes it takes sophisticated equipment to solve the problem but may require addition time and effort to make sure it continues to perform.

Most of all, you want the support of the the sales/service departments that when it does slip up or fails, to guide you and assist you in resolving the issues, not make things worse.

We have found using H202 in your situation very successful and I would be willing to help you in that direction if you'd like.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gary Slusser said:


> This mixing tank is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank but not in size, it's in the internal patented design.


I have seen this tank mentioned by this poster in other forums but I have never seen a basis for the claim that this small tank is equivilent to a 120 gallon retention tank. Are there testing results that demonstrate equivilence? What are the measures of "equivilence"?

How can an "internal patented design" be equivilent to anything?


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

Bob999 said:


> I have seen this tank mentioned by this poster in other forums but I have never seen a basis for the claim that this small tank is equivilent to a 120 gallon retention tank. Are there testing results that demonstrate equivilence? What are the measures of "equivilence"?
> 
> How can an "internal patented design" be equivilent to anything?


Well Bob, as I write from my immobile home without a motor....

The system features two internal mixing chambers and a swirl chamber designed to deliver chemical or air saturation quickly. This supposedly mixes or "atomizes" the chemical mixture accellerating the process. But, you're right, the term 'equals' is still undefined and unsubstantiated by any third-party testing or validating organization that I am aware of.
http://www.apwinc.com/retention_tank.html

We use an 'accellerator" before the retention tank. http://www.apwinc.com/chemmixer.html 
These can get 'gummed up' by particulate matter and may need to be cleaned or replaced. Fortunately, this is not difficult. Taking one out of the tank is not recommended as far as I know. Since we are responsible for our customers' equipment, we don't want to place something that we cannot service.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Unfortunately in the water filtration business there are a lot of Voodoo products out there and a lot of unsubstantiated claims made by not only the manufacturers but the salesmen also. I've been installing these things for nearly 35 years now and in that time I have seen lots of products and methods come and go. In the end, it all comes down to common sense. You have to really look at a product, inside and out and sometimes that means buying the product and dissecting it before you foist it upon your customers. The other thing that happens is that salesmen will come into your shop with some new piece of equipment and offer great deals and perks and such and if you are not savvy they can suck you into buying equipment that may not suit your needs.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Andy CWS said:


> Well Bob, as I write from my immobile home without a motor....
> 
> The system features two internal mixing chambers and a swirl chamber designed to deliver chemical or air saturation quickly. This supposedly mixes or "atomizes" the chemical mixture accellerating the process. But, you're right, the term 'equals' is still undefined and unsubstantiated by any third-party testing or validating organization that I am aware of.
> http://www.apwinc.com/retention_tank.html
> ...


I went to the web page you posted. First thing I noted is that it says "patent applied for" so apparently it is not patented. I have to wonder how it can be advertised as equivilent if the equivilency is not defined and there are no tests to demonstrate it is equivilent.


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## Bill7 (Dec 18, 2009)

I know he doesn't mention IRB, but he does mention this: similar symptoms of of IRB.

"Unfortunately the raw water from the well is terrible - there is a high amount of iron, hydrogen sulfide, and manganese (and associated stink and staining!)."


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

The tank I sell is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank because it produces the same results. With all but 80 sales of this tank over 6 yrs the end of this month, it has never failed on water with up to 10+ ppm of iron or any amount of H2S gas or bacteria of any kind.

There has been only one problem with any of those tanks and it was because the owner stepped on the drain valve and cracked an easily replaced elbow under the center bottom of the tank. I was an easy replacement after draining the tank and unscrewing the nut on the elbow and then tightening the nut on the new one. 

I have never had or heard of any blockage of any kind of the distributor tube. I've never used the "accellerator" that was mentioned as an addition to a retention tank, and the distributor tube in this tank is different than the "accellerator".

If needed the distributor tube is easily removed from the tank and replaced but there should never be a need to do that.

Voodoo products .... this equipment has been sold in North America and around the world for many years.

For all that has been said about this equipment, other than Aaron the thread starter, it seems I'm the only one here that has actually seen, sold and serviced this equipment.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I did not say that tank was voodo equipment. I said there is a lot of suspect equipment out there and that installers and salesmen should take the time to investigate and research ther product before selling it.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gary Slusser said:


> The tank I sell is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank because it produces the same results.


Is there independent testing to support your claim?


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## AaronF (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the link to Automated Pure Water Andy. I was unaware that this company also manufactures an auto flushing valve as shown in the attached link. http://www.apwinc.com/auto-flush.html I wonder why they mention this can be set to daily if they should only flush the tank once a month... That would waste a lot of chlorinated water and mess up the concentration. 

In one of my previous posts, you wonder why I stopped flushing my tank daily - the valve I was using was an electric diaphragm type with viton seals. It could only close against about 40psi, so it struggled to "stop" flushing. I was looking into other electrically actuated ball valves that can close against higher pressures (30psi - 60psi well switch) but they are starting to get into the $250 and up price range. I would have no problem doing this, if I know it is going to benefit the system, but definitely would want consensus that this is a good move. Unfortunately there is disagreement on this (as everything mentioned on this thread). 

I do not or have not experienced IRB, so the comments mentioned above are stated correctly. The system I have or am looking to upgrade to will not take this into consideration. 

Maintenance of any type of treatment system is expected, and I definitely don't mind it. I am very mechanically inclined, and have no problem with any type of ongoing maintenance and repair of a system, as long as I have the knowledge and support of skilled people. I definitely do not think I can find a hands off system, but if I can find one that doesn't involve standing outside in the -10 degree Chicago winters over a steaming bucket of acid enjoying the wonderful smell of the chlorine reacting with the acid, this definitely may influence my decision. As a matter of fact, if I have to service the system again before I replace it, I should film it and throw it on you tube... Maybe people can insult me and tell my I am doing it incorrectly and that it is not as difficult as it looks. 

Anyways not intending to fuel the fire.... I do appreciate everyone that is contributing to this thread - I have learned a lot, which is the whole point. 
I will gather the additional information about my well tank / pump that I have not addressed and yet.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

AaronF said:


> I was unaware that this company also manufactures an auto flushing valve .... I wonder why they mention this can be set to daily if they should only flush the tank once a month... That would waste a lot of chlorinated water and mess up the concentration.


It's to show the flexibility of the timer and once a day might be used when that frequency is needed such as in irrigation, agriculture and other installations where the other version of the hopper may not be used. Your installation didn't need that frequency. 



AaronF said:


> I do not or have not experienced IRB, so the comments mentioned above are stated correctly.


IMO you will have some reducing bacteria and when was the last time you had the water tested for Coliform?



AaronF said:


> if I have to service the system again before I replace it, I should film it and throw it on you tube...


Now that is a great idea, that would allow you to give back by helping others.


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## Andy CWS (Apr 27, 2007)

Thanks for the link to Automated Pure Water Andy. 
*You're welcome. I hope that made it a little easier to understand. I'm neither condoning or condeming, I just wanted to provide the information.* 

I was unaware that this company also manufactures an auto flushing valve as shown in the attached link. http://www.apwinc.com/auto-flush.html I wonder why they mention this can be set to daily if they should only flush the tank once a month... That would waste a lot of chlorinated water and mess up the concentration. 
*These are adjustable for frequency (and duration?). Again, variations in treatment must match water conditions and usage. Yours may well need to flush a couple tmes a week but monitoring it and getting a feel for it can be done. It would also be the same for chemical feed, and other aspects as well. You may find that different times of the year require adjustments, for example.*

In one of my previous posts, you wonder why I stopped flushing my tank daily - the valve I was using was an electric diaphragm type with viton seals. It could only close against about 40psi, so it struggled to "stop" flushing. 
*Many times the shortcomings of equipment set -ups aren't realized until long after an install or change in water conditions or usage. This is not to say that it wouldn't work given other conditions, but I have rarely found a system that is an effecitve cure-all, paricularly when offering in single-sized and constant settings. Water can be very fickle....*

I was looking into other electrically actuated ball valves that can close against higher pressures (30psi - 60psi well switch) but they are starting to get into the $250 and up price range. 
*Too expensive that works is less costly than cheap that doesn't. Value should supercede cost.*

I would have no problem doing this, if I know it is going to benefit the system, but definitely would want consensus that this is a good move. 
*Do you have the valve's model/make? Staging maintenance is important. Many systems die due to neglect or delay of basic maintenance.*

Unfortunately there is disagreement on this (as everything mentioned on this thread). 
*Well observed and appreciated, I'm sure. Often disagreements are rooted in the telling to others that they are wrong. I have never been sure how that could be effective or result in a positive outcome.*

I do not or have not experienced IRB, so the comments mentioned above are stated correctly. The system I have or am looking to upgrade to will not take this into consideration. 
*Sorry, not following you exactly here. What is it that is not being considered? IRB is quite common in my area. It is considered a problem water and requires special attention...shortcuts will be disappointing*

Maintenance of any type of treatment system is expected, and I definitely don't mind it. I am very mechanically inclined, and have no problem with any type of ongoing maintenance and repair of a system, as long as I have the knowledge and support of skilled people. 
*I agree with this totally. Understanding and managing something difficult or complex will benefit you more than ignoring or being hamstrung with something simple. *

*Your water conditions, albeit not unique, are difficult and I would suggest equipment more serious than your water. *

I definitely do not think I can find a hands off system, but if I can find one that doesn't involve standing outside in the -10 degree Chicago winters over a steaming bucket of acid enjoying the wonderful smell of the chlorine reacting with the acid, this definitely may influence my decision. 
*I'm not familiar with your equipment environment and space restrictions, but clearly you don't want something that causes discomfort or inconvenience--let alone not work. Outside of some physical water treatment-PWT-equipment (magnets, wire wraps, etc.) there are no hands off systems. *

As a matter of fact, if I have to service the system again before I replace it, I should film it and throw it on you tube... Maybe people can insult me and tell my I am doing it incorrectly and that it is not as difficult as it looks. 
*Frustration noted...LOL But your deligence and focus can benefit others in determining various apects including if it works they way others would like, expect or have been told. You cerianly won't get any sarcasm or brow beating from me.*

Anyways not intending to fuel the fire.... I do appreciate everyone that is contributing to this thread - I have learned a lot, which is the whole point. 
I will gather the additional information about my well tank / pump that I have not addressed and yet.
*Take care and keep in touch here or elsewhere...*

*Andy Christensen, CWS-II*


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## heater guy (Mar 8, 2018)

Since installing a peroxide pump system, lower water heater element on 80 gallon electric water heater burns out every 4 to 8 weeks or so. Is there a solution to this problem?


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## Donhg (11 mo ago)

heater guy said:


> Since installing a peroxide pump system, lower water heater element on 80 gallon electric water heater burns out every 4 to 8 weeks or so. Is there a solution to this problem?


I'm not a pro but I would say too much oxidation. I would also look at more robust heater elements like perhaps a ceramic coated element if such a thing exist. I know thread is 4 years old but others may benifit.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

12 years old.


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## Donhg (11 mo ago)

Nik333 said:


> 12 years old.


Last comment was 2018. 4 years old.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Donhg said:


> Last comment was 2018. 4 years old.


The information on the thread is mostly from 12 years ago. It may be outdated.









Recent advancements in water treatment - American Chemical Society


Read recent papers published in ACS journals that report insights into how well water treatment methods work and the quality of the resulting water.




www.acs.org


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## Donhg (11 mo ago)

Nik333 said:


> The information on the thread is mostly from 12 years ago. It may be outdated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know. Thanks.


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