# Removing old grass with tiller?



## gante

Hi all,

I want to look into removing all the "grass" and weeds on my yard so that I can prep for new sod. I have never done this before. I have seen that some people use a "grass cutter" machine and then they use the "tiller" to loose the ground. I would have to rent either machine I used, therefore I would like to get just one. Since I really do not care to recycle any of the old grass can I just ran the "tiller" machine to stir the earth which I would assume will be removing the grass and weed from the roots. 

Is there any special treatment recomended before installing the new sod? like fertilizer...etc?

Thanks


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## Bob Mariani

Use the tiller. not sure why you do not want to recycle the grass, since this will help add nutrients to the soil.  Till, rake add starter fertilizer. Let sit a few days. Then sod. Water heavy every three days to establish deep roots.


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## gante

One reason I do not want to keep any of the old grass is because there is a lot of weed and other wild plants in it. That is the main reason I think it would be easier to remove the whole thing and start fresh. As it is the old grass, if any left is in bad shape and with lots of dry spots all over the place.


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## gma2rjc

If you're going to rent a rototiller, you first need to kill all the weeds with weed and grass killer. Make sure it does have the grass killer in it. When you sod your new lawn, you don't want the old grass to come up as it might be a different variety than the new grass.

Rototilling without first killing the weeds will just mix them into the soil. A lot of them will survive and come back. Also, when you turn the soil, all the weed seeds that had been sitting on the surface will grow.

The only weed and grass killer I'm familiar with is Roundup. I've had good luck with it, but maybe someone here knows of a better brand, hopefully one that's cheaper. Make sure you buy the concentrate and not the 'ready to use'. Buy or borrow a sprayer. Don't spray when there is even a small breeze. The wind will carry it into your neighbors yard and kill anything it touches...:whistling2: 

The good thing about doing it this way is the roots will be killed too. But, it does take a week or so for everything to die and turn brown. 

Oh, one last thing. Before you rent the rototiller, ask the sod supplier if it's even necessary to rototill once everything is dead. 

Good luck. I use to put a lot of effort into getting rid of the weeds in my yard. It was a real battle for several years. I lost. Now, I just do my best to keep them out of my flower beds.


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## gma2rjc

This site has some good information to help you prepare for sod http://www.sodding.com/prepare/index.html

I don't know of any specific books to recommend. Bookstores and discount bookstores usually have a lot to choose from this time of year.


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## dhag

gma2rjc said:


> This site has some good information to help you prepare for sod http://www.sodding.com/prepare/index.html
> 
> I don't know of any specific books to recommend. Bookstores and discount bookstores usually have a lot to choose from this time of year.


 
Good website! I've been planning this project for over a year and have been getting a lot of mixed advise and this seems to simplifiy it all and ties all of the other info together.


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## gma2rjc

Good luck with it. It looks like a lot of work. Take some before and after pics too.


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## gante

gma2rjc said:


> If you're going to rent a rototiller, you first need to kill all the weeds with weed and grass killer. Make sure it does have the grass killer in it. When you sod your new lawn, you don't want the old grass to come up as it might be a different variety than the new grass.
> 
> Rototilling without first killing the weeds will just mix them into the soil. A lot of them will survive and come back. Also, when you turn the soil, all the weed seeds that had been sitting on the surface will grow.
> 
> The only weed and grass killer I'm familiar with is Roundup. I've had good luck with it, but maybe someone here knows of a better brand, hopefully one that's cheaper. Make sure you buy the concentrate and not the 'ready to use'. Buy or borrow a sprayer. Don't spray when there is even a small breeze. The wind will carry it into your neighbors yard and kill anything it touches...:whistling2:
> 
> The good thing about doing it this way is the roots will be killed too. But, it does take a week or so for everything to die and turn brown.
> 
> Oh, one last thing. Before you rent the rototiller, ask the sod supplier if it's even necessary to rototill once everything is dead.
> 
> Good luck. I use to put a lot of effort into getting rid of the weeds in my yard. It was a real battle for several years. I lost. Now, I just do my best to keep them out of my flower beds.


Yes, good advice. I did not think about this. I will like to kill everything before I put new sod. How long should wait after I add this poison to the ground before I add new sod. I would not like to add new sod a week after and for it to start dying.


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## gma2rjc

The directions on my bottle of Roundup say to wait at least 3 days after the last application to rake, till or replant with seed or sod. Personally, I would wait longer than that as it sometimes takes 4 or 5 days for the plants to actually look dead.

The commercials on tv suggest that you'll see the plant die very quickly. That's not true. 24 hours later you'll only see a slight difference in the way the weeds look. After a few more days, they'll look like they're dieing. At least that has been my experience. 

It also says if the ground is dry, to water before you spray the stuff. Watering to moisten the ground should be done at least several hours before you spray. Water left on the grass/weeds will only dilute the chemicals and make them less effective. 

I've been using this stuff for about 10 years or so. We have a chainlink fence that goes all the way around the back yard. A trimmer worked ok on our side, but if the neighbors don't trim along their side of the fence, then it looks like heck. I don't blame them for not wanting to mess with it. So I spray along the fence on both sides. 

The *MOST* important thing is, like I said, to not spray when there is even a small breeze.


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## lawsmigame

gma2rjc said:


> If you're going to rent a rototiller, you first need to kill all the weeds with weed and grass killer. Make sure it does have the grass killer in it. When you sod your new lawn, you don't want the old grass to come up as it might be a different variety than the new grass.
> 
> Rototilling without first killing the weeds will just mix them into the soil. A lot of them will survive and come back. Also, when you turn the soil, all the weed seeds that had been sitting on the surface will grow.
> 
> The only weed and grass killer I'm familiar with is Roundup. I've had good luck with it, but maybe someone here knows of a better brand, hopefully one that's cheaper. Make sure you buy the concentrate and not the 'ready to use'. Buy or borrow a sprayer. Don't spray when there is even a small breeze. The wind will carry it into your neighbors yard and kill anything it touches...:whistling2:
> 
> The good thing about doing it this way is the roots will be killed too. But, it does take a week or so for everything to die and turn brown.
> 
> Oh, one last thing. Before you rent the rototiller, ask the sod supplier if it's even necessary to rototill once everything is dead.
> 
> Good luck. I use to put a lot of effort into getting rid of the weeds in my yard. It was a real battle for several years. I lost. Now, I just do my best to keep them out of my flower beds.


 
I purchased a home that had been vacant for serveral months. The grass was dead with alot of weeds. I rototilled it without killing the weeds first. I am raking up the debris. After reading about this I see that I may have done this incorrectly. Any suggestions.


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## gma2rjc

I would wait and see what happens. You may get a lot of weed seeds sprouting or there may be very few. 

If your grass comes in nice and thick, it may choke out the weeds anyway. 

No matter what you do, weed seeds will get into your lawn one way or another. They can blow into your yard from a neighbors yard or when birds are flying over, there can be seeds in the droppings that land in your grass.

I wouldn't worry about it right now. 

When I built my flower beds, I dug out ALL of the live grass and weeds. Then I spread Preen (more than recommended) all over to kill any seeds that remained. I put mulch down and added the plants. 

Even with all of that time, $$$ and effort, I still get a lot of weeds in all of my flower beds. The Preen helps a LOT! But you wouldn't want to use that if you're starting your lawn from seed as the purpose of the Preen is to kill seeds.

If you don't mind waiting to plant your grass seed, let the weeds grow in and kill them with Roundup. Read the manufacturer's recommendation on the time period needed between spraying and planting new grass seed.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## pyper

Spray with Roundup or a generic (glynphosphate is the ingredient). 

Don't till. It will stir up weed seeds that will sprout. If you do till, then wait until the new seeds germinate and spray them too.

I have a massive 8 HP Troybilt tiller (it's from the 70's -- over 300 lbs). It has a hard time cutting through grass.


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## Water Guy

gma2rjc said:


> Watering to moisten the ground should be done at least several hours before you spray. Water left on the grass/weeds will only dilute the chemicals and make them less effective.
> 
> The *MOST* important thing is, like I said, to not spray when there is even a small breeze.


Water that is left on the grass and weeds won't dilute the mixture, it will actually help the chemicals get into the plants through the plant cells. It's not like when you are watering you are going to water with a fire hose for 4-5 hours and have 6" of water on your lawn.

You were also told in a previous post to water heavily to establish deep roots. Water heavily only on the first day. After that you just need to keep it damp for the next 4-6 weeks. If you have an in-ground irrigation system, water for 8-10 minutes three to four times a day. If you drag a hose and a sprinkler head around, do it for about 15-20 minutes three times a day. Don't water in the hi-heat of the day.

Don't fertilize until after the roots have set unless it's a starter fertilizer. You also should fertilize the top soil after you have it prepped and rolled, just before you lay the sod.

Mick


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## Thurman

Another vote for killing the grass before tilling, and "RoundUp" will do just that. One suggestion: For every gallon of the mixed RoundUp and water, add six (6) drops of "Dawn" dishwashing detergent. Just that small amount of detergent will act as a "surfactant", which will make the sprayed material stick to the leaves better. This is how RoundUP works, it is absorbed through the leaves to attack the central nervous system of the plant. Thanks, David


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## gma2rjc

Hi Thurman. Is there anything that can be added to the tank with the Round Up and water that will show where the Round Up has been sprayed?

It's so easy to miss a few spots. Especially if it's a hot day and the leaves don't stay wet very long.


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## vsheetz

Yes, sanatizing the soil to get rid of existing weeds and grass is of paramount importance - else you are just going to see the weeds and grass again in the not too distant future. Mother Nature is persistant, if nothing else. Roundup is the way I would go - I have used others and cheaper over the years which have wasted my time and money - Roundup works. Mix it strong and apply liberally, wait a week to two weeks, spray again if not all is dead. Wait a few more days. Now use a rototiller to till and chop up the weeds and grass remnents. I would probably wait a week and hit it again with the Roundup.

Now is the time to install or fix sprinklers, grade as needed (strive for about 1" below sidewalks and driveways, etc.), and other mechanical prep work.

Following the installation recommendations and watering instructions of the sod provider. The sod provider will know the product, area, etc. the best.

Green side up! :thumbsup:


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## downunder

Considering the time from the OP, I'm thinking that this should have been a new thread. But in the interest of sharing information- lawsmigame, are you doing this work now? Where are you? I'm just not seeing starting a new lawn now.


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## cprao

I plan to do something very similar to the original poster - laying new sod..

However I have 2 zones in my front yard. One is lawn and the other is plants area. I am going remove the whole lawn since it is infested with lot of weeds. But on the 2nd part, I do have some good rose plants but that area is also infested with weeds. If I spray Roundup on the plants area, I will be killing my rose plants also, right.. 

Is there way I can only kill weeds but not rose plants ?


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## downunder

Spray as reasonably close to your roses as you can, then finish the old fashioned way- by hand!


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## gma2rjc

You can also wrap your rose bushes in plastic to make sure the over spray doesn't get on them. But remove the plastic immediately after spraying.

It may not be necessary for you to kill off your entire lawn because of the weeds. Unless there is almost no grass anyway. 

There are weed killers available that are safe to spray on your lawn. They kill the weeds, but not the grass. If you go this route, still cover your rose bushes and any other plants you want to keep.


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## cprao

gma2rjc said:


> You can also wrap your rose bushes in plastic to make sure the over spray doesn't get on them. But remove the plastic immediately after spraying.
> 
> It may not be necessary for you to kill off your entire lawn because of the weeds. Unless there is almost no grass anyway.
> 
> There are weed killers available that are safe to spray on your lawn. They kill the weeds, but not the grass. If you go this route, still cover your rose bushes and any other plants you want to keep.


There is grass but also has lot of dry spots. At the same time it is infested with lot of weeds also. thatswhy I want to remove both grass and weeds together.


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## user1007

You might want to consider hydromulching your new lawn. It will be less expensive than sod, will establish more quickly and in my opinion will be healthier in the long run. 

Roundup should do the trick if you want to kill everything. It will not get rid of any weed seeds though so you will need herbicides for that situation. You will be amazed at what setting your mower a little higher and regular feeding will do when it comes to weed control. An application or two of a weed and feed sort of product will help too.


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## Kap

gma2rjc said:


> Hi Thurman. Is there anything that can be added to the tank with the Round Up and water that will show where the Round Up has been sprayed?
> 
> It's so easy to miss a few spots. Especially if it's a hot day and the leaves don't stay wet very long.



http://www.treehelp.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=LG-1130

search for herbicide dye, colorant for more options. Just be sure to get something water soluble.


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## downunder

> Roundup should do the trick if you want to kill everything. It will not get rid of any weed seeds though so you will need herbicides for that situation.


Roundup IS a herbicide. A pre-emergent will address the weed seeds, but will prevent grass seeds as well from growing. PS- It will also seriously effect new root developement on sod as well.


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## user1007

downunder said:


> Roundup IS a herbicide. A pre-emergent will address the weed seeds, but will prevent grass seeds as well from growing. PS- It will also seriously effect new root developement on sod as well.


True enough and yes a pre-emergent will keep grass seeds from growing. A pre-emergent will not effect existing sod from growing though. 

I still think that you will find raising the mower to clip at 2", watering in the morning, and applying a broadleaf weed killing herbicide and one for crabgrass on a scheduled basis might solve your problem. When I was in the turfgrass industry feeding a laen 1 pound of nitrogen per 1000 square feet per month was recommended but I suspect that is viewed extreme these days? 

You know, grabbing some samples from the bare spots and spending $40 with a soil lab might save you a lot of long term anguish too? All the sod, fertilizer, hydromulching in the World is not going to fix soil that is wacked. A soil lab will be able to tell you what to add to balance things. The good news is that the additives should be inexpensive minerals needed just to bring the PH back in range.


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## cprao

sdsester said:


> True enough and yes a pre-emergent will keep grass seeds from growing. A pre-emergent will not effect existing sod from growing though.
> 
> I still think that you will find raising the mower to clip at 2", watering in the morning, and applying a broadleaf weed killing herbicide and one for crabgrass on a scheduled basis might solve your problem. When I was in the turfgrass industry feeding a laen 1 pound of nitrogen per 1000 square feet per month was recommended but I suspect that is viewed extreme these days?
> 
> You know, grabbing some samples from the bare spots and spending $40 with a soil lab might save you a lot of long term anguish too? All the sod, fertilizer, hydromulching in the World is not going to fix soil that is wacked. A soil lab will be able to tell you what to add to balance things. The good news is that the additives should be inexpensive minerals needed just to bring the PH back in range.


Thank you for all your suggestions.. Based on the discussion, I guess following can be applied to my situation.

1. Apply Roundup for all the lawn part to kiil the grass as well as weeds
2. Apply Roundup carefully in the plant area only to kill Weeds but not the plants
3. After a week or so, once I ensure that everything is cleaned out, Rototill the lawn area. Rake the wholearea to takeout weeds, grass and rocks, if any.
4. Apply starter fertilizer or whatever is recommended either by Sod manufacturer or based on the soil testing.. Rototill again to ensure the added componets are mixed with existing soil properly..
5. Apply sod or do hydro mulching.. (I still have to figure it out what exactly Hydromulching means)


I have one question: When I rototill what happens if I accidently hit a PVC irrigation pipe line ? I believe there is some underground pipeline which is not functioning..


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## user1007

cprao said:


> Thank you for all your suggestions.. Based on the discussion, I guess following can be applied to my situation.
> (I still have to figure it out what exactly Hydromulching means)
> 
> 
> I have one question: When I rototill what happens if I accidently hit a PVC irrigation pipe line ? I believe there is some underground pipeline which is not functioning..


If you accidentally hit a PVC pipe with a rototiller you will more than likely at least nick a nasty leak in it. You remind me that before you dig deeply into anything you should call your local utitility locating service to flag everything for you. Such is offered free in most communities. They will come out and flag gas, cable, water, etc. lines so you know how to proceed.

Are you sure the PVC line is deactivated and not an active water line for something?

Hydromulching/hydroseeding is a process where a seed mix (of your choice if you have a good pro around), fertilizer and a mulch/crust material is all mixed into kind of a gloppy slurry. It is then sprayed on to the ground and the process is nice because it will stick to any grade changes or contours you might have. Look on line for pictures and search for providers in your area. Seeds will germinate in record time. 

I haven't priced the service in a while since I do not need many lawns anymore but it is a fraction of the cost of sod and you will have an established lawn faster. Look up hydroseeding and you will get a list of contractors in your area.

http://www.hydroseedingexperts.com/

Nothing wrong with the old fashioned way of seeding a lawn either. Just buy a few extra pounds to feed the birds and lots of mulch. It just takes some effort and hydromulching/hydroseeding will be cheaper in the long run. In my opinion. Hydromulching beats sodding every time unless you must have absolute immediate gratification. Be prepared to spend a fortune on water establishing a sod lawn though. 

Obviously soil prep, rototilling, etc. has to happen with whatever you do first but you are obviously on to this concept. Where are you? You do not want to be forcing sod to take, hydroseeding or whatever if it is so cold the plant material will be scared?

You wlll love the concept and be the envy of your friends with the hydroseeding concept.


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## Scuba_Dave

Local utilities are not responsible for lawn water/watering pipes & will not mark them around here

As Sdester said you should ALWAYS call to have utilities marked before digging
Even in the backyard, some utilities run thru the yard to houses on the next street
Not usual, but it does happen

Mysef I will not use anything like roundup where I want anything to grow
I tend to shy away from most chemicals with a stream on the property


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## cprao

Scuba_Dave said:


> Local utilities are not responsible for lawn water/watering pipes & will not mark them around here
> 
> As Sdester said you should ALWAYS call to have utilities marked before digging
> Even in the backyard, some utilities run thru the yard to houses on the next street
> Not usual, but it does happen
> 
> Mysef I will not use anything like roundup where I want anything to grow
> I tend to shy away from most chemicals with a stream on the property


If you don't use Roundup for killing weed, grass etc.. how do you do ? Do you have any other alternatives ?


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## cprao

sdsester said:


> Are you sure the PVC line is deactivated and not an active water line for something?


PVC lines are most probablay previously establisher irrigation lines and no longer functioning.. I need to take these all out and relay new piples.. and new sprinklers..


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## cprao

sdsester said:


> Obviously soil prep, rototilling, etc. has to happen with whatever you do first but you are obviously on to this concept. Where are you? You do not want to be forcing sod to take, hydroseeding or whatever if it is so cold the plant material will be scared?
> 
> You wlll love the concept and be the envy of your friends with the hydroseeding concept.


I am from Los Angeles area, Zip code - 91741. Can hydroseeding/Mulching be done a novice, just like me..


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## user1007

cprao said:


> I am from Los Angeles area, Zip code - 91741. Can hydroseeding/Mulching be done a novice, just like me..


Sure, I suppose you can rent the equipment and the materials but hydroseeding contractors I use are so inexpensive I would not think about it.


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## cprao

sdsester said:


> Sure, I suppose you can rent the equipment and the materials but hydroseeding contractors I use are so inexpensive I would not think about it.


Ok. Let me contact them and see hou much it is going to cost me ..


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## odbarret

So what was the result? I am struggling with the same things, alot of weeds and bad grass in my backyard and was advised to use a tiller. I want to start the project this week and was interested to see what worked for you and what didnt. Did you also use the chemicals as we are trying to avoid that route.


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## odbarret

So what was the result? I am struggling with the same issue, alot of weeds and bad grass in my backyard and was advised to use a tiller. My concern is the tiller will replant the weeds and bad grass. I want to start the project this week and was interested to see what worked for you and what didnt. Did you also use the chemicals as we are trying to avoid that route.


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## cprao

odbarret said:


> So what was the result? I am struggling with the same issue, alot of weeds and bad grass in my backyard and was advised to use a tiller. My concern is the tiller will replant the weeds and bad grass. I want to start the project this week and was interested to see what worked for you and what didnt. Did you also use the chemicals as we are trying to avoid that route.


I did use the tiller but in the later part. A nursery guy suggested me the following process.. long and tedious but worked for me.

I manually plucked all the weeds. Then I kept waterng the area for 3 weeks on the dirt. As new weeds comin up and I was plucking them out with roots. But as the time passed, the weeds generation is slow to nil. It means all the weeds are gone.. 

Then I did rototilling with some topsoil and amendements.. Here Rototilling is to mix the soil with amedments. Then I laid down sod.. 

It worked for me.. I have NOT used any chemicals.


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## kylebazzell

*do not use any grass weed killer*

if you do this all concentrate grass weed killer will kill everything but you will not be able to put any sod down for 4 months because it will die because it had soaked into the ground especially the roundup concentrate the expensive kind you will just waste alot of money till the land loosen it up remove weeds before hand with a shovel then prep and plant :thumbsup:


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