# Replace door sill = Need new door?



## TazinCR (Jun 23, 2008)

Take some pictures of it. My feeling has always been, is if it was built it can be rebuilt.(in most cases)


----------



## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

By "Sill", do you mean the threshold that you actually step on as you walk through the door?


----------



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

any carpenter worth his salt can rebuild a door jamb exactly the way it was so the old door can go back in. you did not give his reason for wanting to replace the whole thing, is it rotted up the sides as well as the bottom? then the whole jamb can be ripped out and replaced. i see no reason why he cannot remount the door unless it is to save him time and work. (new prehung doors are easier to put in)

DM


----------



## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

just because he has a good rep around town doesnt mean he is knowledgeable in all aspects of the trade.
yes you can changed threshold with out removing the door assembly, but you risk the chance of damaging the pan flashing in the process.
what we do is cut the threshold in three sections pulling the middle section out first. now the end sections are nailed from the side of the jamb into the threshold so pull the side pieces out towards the front to expose a gap between the threshold and the jamb. take a flat bar and pry these pieces out. get some cutters and cut the nails that are sticking out and then take a nail set and push the remaining piece of the nail into the jamb out of the way.
you can get a new threshold at your locale lumber yard. they come in different widths. take a piece of the old to match it up. 
when I doe these i work off of center lines. with the new piece mark the center of the threshold with a square . now measure the width of the jambs from the inside of the dadoes ( with the door closed and the proper revile down the sides. measure the width from dado to dado 36-3/4" + -. 
mark this on your new piece centering it on your mark. then measure the width of your jamb 4-3/8 - 4-9/16 + - don't measure to the outside of the brick mould, just the jamb.
from the inside part of the threshold measure back the width of the jamb and mark both sides. know from this mark draw a line parallel to the outside towards the ends.
measure from the dado of the existing jamb to the outside edge of the brick mould and mark this down on the new piece, do this on both sides. this is going to be your horn cut. before you cut this measure from the out side of your brick mold to the outside of the other brick mould and see if the measurements coincide with what you have laid out on the new piece. correct if necessary.
slide the new piece into place to see if it fits OK. now get some pl premium construction adhesive and put some glue into the dado's ,now slide your new sill into place.
put your weather stripping back or what ever you had to seal the bottom of the door, I'm thinking you had metal interlocking weatherstripping installed on your door. most of the times there is a piece of aluminum or brass. that is screwed to the threshold. put it back. put your storm door back and you should be back in shape. if this is something you feel you can do your self fine, if not explain the process to him. Good luck bob.


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Wow, thanks. By "sill" I mean the large chunk of wood @ the base of the door, not the other thing (saddle?) that goes on top of it to keep the weather out.

Hmmm. He did mention time. I suppose it is easier/faster to install a whole new unit, but that does not mean the current door can NOT be replaced. I'm just concerned that the door I get is not going to be a solid wood door like I have now, and will likely be of lesser quality.

buletbob, thanks so much for the instructions - but I'm at a loss as to what half of those words refer to! But, the jist of what I think everyone is saying is that the sill CAN be replaced without doing this "whole package". 

As far as I know, the rot is only on the sill and not the jams, but there is a lot I can not see. I'll get some pictures up tonight when I get home. Pictures are worth 1000 words you know!

Anyway, the gears are turning in my mind (albeit slowly!) Thanks!


----------



## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

So this is the outside sill and not just the threshold (saddle) of the door. This is a bit of a different animal if that is the case. There is still no reason that the door couldn't be rehung. but repairs to the sill will require a little different approach than the threshold repair that buletbob outlined. Pictures would make this easier, but it is still possible to replace the sill using most of bob's steps. you or your contractor would likely have to fabricate a new one from some good quality lumber.


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Yes, def the sill is what is starting to rot. The saddle is the part on top of that (I think) is still in fine condition. It looks to be a piece of 2"X8" oak. 

The whole sill is not rotted, it is just the part that sticks out from under the stormdoor. There isn't much in the way of protection for it (no awning or overhang) so I guess time has taken its toll. 

Thanks again, and I'll get some images after work tonight.


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

*Roted Sill Pics!*

So, here's 3 shots I got this afternoon. One straight on, decay pretty obvious, and a shot of each corner that look good (to me anyway). As you can see, the ends of the sill are hidden by some aluminum stuff. 

If the jambs are in good shape, do they need to be replaced as I was told? 

I spoke to a carpenter this morning in the Lumber yard, and he sort of said the same thing. Maybe it's just easier for _them?_ 

I like my door, and if I had to take the jambs off to replace this sill, I would 
use that opportunity to reinforce the jambs with some metal or something.

My door is solid! Can I keep it or does it have to go????


----------



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

keep it.... just cut that sill in half in the middle and pull it off the sides. be careful to only cut the wood. then replace that size and shape if the jamb is ok. pull door, pull sill, pull jamb, rebuild with new piece, replace jamb, then door, paint or stain. but what do i know? i slept at home!

DM


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

It's THAT easy? 

So, are these pros just trying to take me for a ride or what? :furious:


----------



## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

NNJGUY I believe the contractor has a point, its not going to be an easy repair as I stated earlier. If you cut the rotted threshold out your not going to be able to slide the new one in in one piece. the inside of the threshold is wider then the front because of the extra wide brick mould. your best bet is to scrape the rot out and treat it with the product I'll list below. then paint. and your not going to be able to slide it in from the inside. Pictures speak a 1000 words. The rot is not that bad, this will be your best bang for the buck and you will be able to do this your self. Good luck BOB Also , its going to be a big boo'del, you will have to pull the aluminum trim off just to remove the storm door. it appears that the alum. trim is covering the latch side and hinge side Z bar. 
http://www.abatron.com/cms/building...estorationmaintenance/woodrestorationkit.html


----------



## TazinCR (Jun 23, 2008)

You can also cut out the bad and fill it with Bondo body filler, paint. Will last a long, long time.


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks Bob for the tips and the product info! 

What the picture doesn't show that well, is that the rot extends to the left and the right of what is visible by about 6 inches. The red paint is pretty much the only thing holding this wood together. I can press my thumb into the wood and make an indentation! 

If I scrape out all the rotted wood, it will pretty much go up to what is visible at the storm door. The wood under the storm door and behind it is still firm, but the part sticking out is shot. Thankfully, it seems to not have gotten to the edges. Yet. I'm honestly afraid the rot is beyond the scope of the product suggested as the paint hides it quite well. 

Yes, it would be quite the puzzle project! 

Now, assuming it is not going to be an easy job, and assuming that the sill needs replacement and is beyond repair, is it better to....



let carpenter do a "total rebuild", which apparently is new _everything_ including jambs, door, and storm door, or,
should I tell them to disassemble everything, fix the sill as best as possible (is one piece an impossibility???) and reassemble as-is so I can keep my door etc?
I want a good job, but I don't want to make the decision based on what is easiest for the carpenter, but what is best for me. I know I am not going to get a door like this one in any replacement job. I still didn't understand why the current door could not be reused, even if new jambs are built. :huh:

The guy was also suggesting a Thermo Tru (?) door. How are they?

You guys have been reallr, really great! I at least have some more ideas here, but I don't think there is an easy fix. Bob I know you're way out on the Island, but if you happen to know anyone in Bergen Co PM me!


----------



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

i had pretty much the exact problem with my old home, it DID wet and rot the jambs at the bottom and you could not tell because of all the tile red paint. ( yeah, it even LOOKS like the job i did.) if you lived closer, i'd come do the job for you for a small price. (between $100 and $200 --- it'd probably be a 3-5 hour job) there is NO REASON you cannot reuse that door! if you want EASY, then you already answered your own question. ----> let carpenter do a "total rebuild", which apparently is new everything including jambs, door, and storm door, or,
should I tell them to disassemble everything, fix the sill as best as possible (is one piece an impossibility???) and reassemble as-is so I can keep my door etc?<----me however, i would just grab my tools and do it. if this were my job, you'd keep the door no problem. how much is this carpenter/contractor asking to sell you a new door?

DM


----------



## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

from the picture where the paint is removed yes It looks as tho the rot isn't that bad, but from what your saying it's beyond that on either side by 6". yes I would agree that the product that I suggested would not be the best repair. 
Solid wood doors are still available today, but are pricey. around the area of 800.00 for a Doug fir door. and thermo-tru is a good door with a life time warranty.
price depends on the style you pick.
As for your situation, your repair could be done by an experienced carpenter but it going to labor intensive. it appears as tho your vinyl siding was installed over the original siding that was on the house.
which is why the brick mould around the door was padded out about 1-1/8" more then normal. and is why they covered over the storm door Z bars and cut or covered the threshold horns on either side of the door.
I am curious why they made the brick mould trim around the door so wide.( pilaster's?)
If I was doing the repair I would pull the door out. remove the threshold reinstall the door and rework the brick mould around the door to make it more appealing. for example. 2-1/4" brick mould have the threshold horns come out even with the sides of the brick mould. and then install a pair of pilaster's on both sides of the brick mould padded out so they would sit on top of the mould by about a 1/4" and which would bring them out past the J channel of the siding. and add some sort of cross head above the door.
labor intensive! that's why your contractor was suggesting a new door. the cost of what seams to be a simple repair would probably turn you off. and with a new door they would be a lot more energy efficient, compared to the drafts that you get from the weather striping that is on the door now.
BOB


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Bob, I think you are correct regarding the siding - there was some kind of decorative thing around the door that just got flashed over which accounts for the weird dimensions.

Still confused!

The contractor I originally spoke to just quoted me $1,200 for the "new deal" and $510 of that is for the fibreglass door, the rest is labor.

I met with another carpenter this morning who also thought that was the best option, but he said if I really wanted to keep my door he could indeed replace the sill, but the job would not be quite as good for some reason, problably because of the reasons Bob alluded to. He said that would run about $300 depending on what is revealed. 

Regarding the door, he said if it came to it, Therma Tru was the way to go, and whatever door I bought he would hang - so the price could be anything I guess depending on what I pick. 

So, I think Bob is leaning toward the total replacement, and DM is leaning toward replacing the sill? I should flip a coin!

This is getting confusinger and confusinger! :huh:


----------



## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

it all depends on your budget. if your planing on staying in the house then I would recommend a new door. they are more energy efficient and less maintenance. but your also going to get involved with a new storm door, the newer door's are 1/2" smaller in there width. because they incorporate the door stop into there jambs there for giving you a 1/2" small opening from jamb to jamb. and with the brick mould applied your storm door opening is going to be that 1/2" smaller.
if you do decide to replace the threshold as the other contractors stated there could be problems arising latter on down the road which the installer would feel he would be responsible for, and feels it would not be worth the aggravation, so he feels to just change the door being it is 50 years old anyway. any other questions I'll be here good luck with your decision BOB


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks. I'll print this out and discuss w/ my Wife and come to a decision. I don't mind spending the $$$ if is is indeed a better decision and better job. I just didn't want to get burned as I don't know much about this stuff at all.

It's a bit clearer now, though. Thanks :thumbsup:

Stay tuned for my new thread asking about reinforcing the jambs to strengthen them. Usually, its the jambs that give in when kicked, and a job like this would provide a good chance to address that.


----------



## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

its funny you mentioned that I had some one kick in my door while I was working on the house next door that we purchased. I herd this big bang while I was sitting in my office next door, I walked outside on the front porch and look over at the house and did not see anything unusual, so went back inside . about 15 minutes later I had to go next door to measure something and decided to use the back door of the house, when I noticed the door was kicked in. jamb was split and My 5-1/4" custom casing was pulled away from the wall. So what I did was to have my AC contractor bend me up a piece of heavy gauge sheet metal about 40" long 4-9/16" wide with a 90 degree bend to cover the inside jamb. I used guerilla glue to glue the split jamb back into position and clamped it until dry.
then I installed the sheet metal into position and marked out for the dead bolt . cut the slot for the dead bolt and reinstalled the sheetmetal blocket and shimmed it tight to the jamb. then got some #12 x 4-1/2" wood screws and drilled them into the jamb and and into the jack studs. Its not going anywhere now. And that was a 1-3/4 solid fir door. 
Just thought I save you a post God Luck. BOB


----------



## NNJGUY (Aug 5, 2008)

Too late, I already posted, but that's *exactly* what I'm talking about! I could give this to my carpenter and let him work it! :thumbsup: There are products on the market, but your solution will do the trick for less $$$.

Its funny, when I mention this stuff to the carpenters I get weird looks, like no one ever asks about this stuff. Doesn't it make sense to address when the door is all exposed? (Makes sense to me)


----------



## Dee_M (Nov 6, 2008)

Yours looks the same as mine, even the same colour! I scraped everything down, filled it with some plastic wood filler that I found in the shed, primed and painted. But now I can't remember how to put the weather stripping thing back and I filled the nail holes so I can't match them! I'm ready to give up and sell "this old house"!


----------



## Beagle123 (Aug 23, 2009)

*So How Did Your Project Go?*

I just read this thread because I'm having the exact same problem. I'd like to know what you decided to do and how it turned out. (and pictures!!!). Also, how much did it cost.

If you haven't fixed it yet, I'd suggest buying an aluminum sill guard (I'm not sure that's the correct name). But anyway, its a piece of aluminum that is "L" shaped so it goes on top of your sill and bends over the edge. You'll have to cut the sides to fit exactly between the door jambs. It basicly serves as an umbrella to keep any water off the wood.

IF you refer to the picture below, just imagine that the paper is aluminum, and that the top edge goes UNDER the threshold.

So you would do this:

1) Remove whatever threshold is in place

2) Make a teplate of the shape of your door jambs as I did in the picture below.

3) Trace shape onto aluminum, cut with hacksaw.

4) Remove all soft damaged wood.

5) Fill surface with "bondo-like" filler. I was thinking of using tile mastic, but anything that fills the gaps and sticks is good. I'm thinking tile mastic might be the best because it is made to stick tile to wood. You want a solid bond so when you step on this threshoild, you have full contact with the sill. Leave about 1/2 inch around the edges bare. You want to create a coating that rises slightly above the surface of the sill so you can mash the aluminum piece into it.

6) Put a thick bead of calk (1/4 in maybe more) around the edges while the mastic is still wet. Now you should have a nice thick coating of goo everywhere.

7) Press aluminum piece into goo, and screw down.

8) Clean-up any goo from around edges

9) Install a "saddle" type threshold that goes over the aluminum so water will run off the door, onto the saddle threshold, then onto the aluminum piece.

10) calk the edges around the saddle threshold.

There should be no way for any water to ever touch your threshold again.

And this solution should cost about $40

Now if anyone knows where I can find this aluminum "Sill guard," please let me know. I've seen them at home depot, but they were only about 5 inches wide. I need a 7 inch version. I may try making my saddle threshold wider so I can use the short one.


----------



## Cattman (Sep 1, 2009)

*Sill Pan*

Take your paper measurements to an alumnin siding contractor and have him make one for you. I had to replace 2 Therma Tru french door units last month that had both leaked at the jams and rotted subfloor and 1 joist. I even had him put a 1/2" lip up on the inside section of the pan and left it long enough that I could bend the ends up to go behind the new door jams. The entire unit sits in the pan and " should never leak" The old ones leaked through the joined brick mold. I used solid plastic/pvc brick mold on the new units so shouldn't have that problem again.

Therma Tru would not stand behind the doors even tough they were only 13 years old!!!:furious: They fell apart when I attempted to take them out. Rotted jams and sill both.


----------

