# Water coming in at base of foundation



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Do you have a sump crock & pump?


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> Do you have a sump crock & pump?


No. The water just runs to the floor drain. It's not a ton of water and it does have to rain a lot before it starts coming in. I would hardly care except that I was hoping to finish this room someday.


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## forresth (Feb 19, 2010)

sounds like poor drainage around the foundation. 
the layer of black tar is a bandage from the previous owners.

I'd probably get more tar and do a raised floor if you ever finish the basement.

the proper fix would be to dig down the the base of the foundation and put in some drainage pipe and lots of gravel.

not all basements are good candidates for finishing.


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

forresth said:


> sounds like poor drainage around the foundation.
> the layer of black tar is a bandage from the previous owners.
> 
> I'd probably get more tar and do a raised floor if you ever finish the basement.


I'm hoping to avoid this since it's a pretty low ceiling as it is. I was thinking I'd go with something like carpet tile that's waterproof and removeable if it comes down to it. 



> the proper fix would be to dig down the the base of the foundation and put in some drainage pipe and lots of gravel.


Sounds terrible, but yeah, I had considered the idea. Do people actually do this?



> not all basements are good candidates for finishing.


I know, but it's so close to being ok. I lived there for a year before I saw water.


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

Ptron said:


> > Quote:the proper fix would be to dig down the the base of the foundation and put in some drainage pipe and lots of gravel.
> 
> 
> Sounds terrible, but yeah, I had considered the idea. Do people actually do this?


So seriously, do people really do this? Is this a reasonable fix if it's only 4.5' down? Most of the info I'm finding on adding drain tile it looks like it's just getting put in under the surface when done on an existing building.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Since you have water coming in at both the wall/floor juction and around the post, it is obvious you have a water table that has come up for some reason.

The most obvious conclusion is poor drainage around your home or an area-wide rise in the water table due to development or changes in drainage.

A 6' downspout extension is really pretty minimal. Longer extensions are desired. If acess is required or the is a aesthetic concern a buried pvc pipe (NOT perforated) could be used to get water away in conjunction with a "pop-up" distributor (no control, but just water presence) could be used.

Since you would not admit where you live (important climate-wise) this could be an attractive solution. I have one in Minnesota, but disconnect (and use a surface downsout) it when/if we do not have much early snow that minimizes freezing and then do the reverse in the spring.

Your problem is really area wide and not just a patch job on one spot.

Dick


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

I live in southern Wisconsin. Madison specifically. I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. Are you talking about using the pvc to extend the downspouts further out to a pop-up?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Ptron said:


> No. *The water just runs to the floor drain*. It's not a ton of water and it does have to rain a lot before it starts coming in. I would hardly care except that I was hoping to finish this room someday.


 
By running to the floor drain, are you saying it's running on the floor surface literally, or it is connected via tile under the floor?



And yes, people really do install entire interior draintile systems, tied to a new crock. Your solution may be somewhat simpler, dependign on the answer to the question above.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Ptron -

That is exactly what I was referring to about my reference to a pop-up valve/outlet.

It is important to use solid walled pvc and not just the cheap "Menards"-type pipe of corrugated that can restrict flow and make it easy to create low areas that collect sediment due to the low velocity.

Your climate is different from mine because we are drier and colder except for the cold days that only come with clear skies and sun. Even in the cold months, it is not unusual for snow on a roof melt and drain into the gutter and downspout due to the radiant sun's heat. If the ground is frozen (in our area due to a light early snowfall, the frost will go down deeper). I have been in northern Minnesota after a week or two of -20F every morning and found soft ground 6" under the snow cover that provided early insulation. If you have an exposed and plowed driveway the frost can be deeper.

My suggestion was just a suggestion based on what has worked in my particular location. The fact that the water is coming up around the post means there is water under your slab and footings.

Dick


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

concretemasonry said:


> I have been in northern Minnesota after a week or two of -20F every morning and found soft ground 6" under the snow cover that provided early insulation.
> Dick


 
Isn't "Mother Nature" wonderful???

I plow snow commercially, and have found out the hard way, far too many times :whistling2:, that snow is an amazing insulator. It actually has the ability to draw the frost out of the ground, with enough snow cover of course.


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> By running to the floor drain, are you saying it's running on the floor surface literally, or it is connected via tile under the floor?


The former. It runs on the surface of the floor to the drain. It's never been so bad that it isn't just two or three neat little streams, trickles really.


> And yes, people really do install entire interior draintile systems, tied to a new crock. Your solution may be somewhat simpler, dependign on the answer to the question above.


I thought forresth was talking about digging down to the base of the foundation on the exterior and installing drain tile there. (BTW, why is it called tile when it's a pipe?)


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

concretemasonry said:


> My suggestion was just a suggestion based on what has worked in my particular location. The fact that the water is coming up around the post means there is water under your slab and footings.


 Gotcha. But the fact that I'm only seeing it at the back of the house means it's an issue local to that part of the house and not some larger water table thing, right?

While the downspouts only carry water out about 6 or 7 feet, there is a significant dropoff at that point, a 30 or so degree slope away from the house going out another few feet.

It's possible the downspouts and or gutters are getteng overwhelmed in very heavy rain. It's a very small house, ~25x30, but there are only two downspouts, one on each back corner. 

The more I look at it. The more I feel like the bad patio and pulled away, back-sloping stoop could be the major contributing factors. I'd just hate to rip all that stuff out, replace it, and then found out it wasn't enough and have to tear it up again and do something more drastic. I guess that's the chance you take. Anyone ever heard of hiring a consultant to look at your situation and tell you what you need to do and then letting you (and your poor friends) do the work yourself?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Ptron -

It is now called "tile" because centuries ago when the concept was developed they used short section of clay tile with loose or open joints to allow excess water and drain away. - Not to many plastic plants with hole drilling machines about 2000 years ago. They built for structures to last centuries then.

Dick


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

So, what sort of solution would you put in as a fail-safe solution to augment the exterior perimeter drain and gravel?


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

benjamincall said:


> So, what sort of solution would you put in as a fail-safe solution to augment the exterior perimeter drain and gravel?


Are you asking what I intend to do or just in general? I might do something like this http://dry-up-basement.com/basement-dry-up-system.html, just to get water out of the finished room and into the room with the drain. Also I would use carpet tile or some other sort flooring that can handle getting a little wet and is removeable. I haven't seen anywhere near the quantities of water that would justify jackhammering a hole in the floor to install a sump.


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm looking for the best permanent solution. That's an interesting molding/drain product. 

Digging down to your footing to put in the drain tile shouldn't be that big a deal. A little hard labor is better than living with carpet tile any day. :thumbup: 
DriCore is expensive, but you could use it to channel water under the floor if your'e not confident you've solved the root problem. 

I'm putting down 1-1/2" foam insulation on the floor.


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

benjamincall said:


> Digging down to your footing to put in the drain tile shouldn't be that big a deal. A little hard labor is better than living with carpet tile any day. :thumbup:


 Heh, heh. Sounds like _a lot _of hard labor to me. I'm not even sure how one would do that without renting a backhoe or something like that. I can't imagine digging all the way down to the base by hand.



> DriCore is expensive, but you could use it to channel water under the floor if your'e not confident you've solved the root problem.


It's funny you mention dricore. There was a bunch of it down there when I moved in but I gave it away to the Habitat for Humanity Re-Store. I'm drawing a line at any solutions that decrease headroom, There's only around 6-1/2' of it as is. 



> I'm putting down 1-1/2" foam insulation on the floor.


Interesting idea. My floor gets cold as sin in the winter. But again the headroom thing.


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## Hohn (Jun 16, 2010)

Two words: Backhoe Contractor.

The "best" place to deal with water problems is on the outside. Dig the earth away and you can do all kinds of fixes: tar and membrane the foundation walls, XPS foam over that, then weeping tile and crushed stone.

The waterproofing will help keep things dry, and the insulation will keep it even dryer, because you'll keep the foundation walls warmer and they'll be far less likely to condense water from the air. Put an inch or two of blueboard or pinkboard between the earth and anything you care about, and it goes a long way to helping things. 

JMO


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Hohn said:


> Two words: Backhoe Contractor.
> 
> The "best" place to deal with water problems is on the outside. Dig the earth away and you can do all kinds of fixes: tar and membrane the foundation walls, XPS foam over that, then weeping tile and crushed stone.
> 
> ...


 
The only problem with that is that he already has current issues inside with the water level. The outside work is definatley a great idea, but it really has to be tied together with an inside sytem to work properly. You can "damproof" the exterior and definately install exterior draintile & stone, but the tile need to empty somewhere, which is most often into the interior draintile, and then to the sump, in which in both cases he doesn't currently have.



OP: I'd be aprehensive about the "cove moulding solution" in the link that you posted. It's fundamental flaw is that is retains the water level/table far higher than it should be. In reality, water can easily present itself at low spots in the floor (in cracks or joints) as well as penetrations like your column posts, long before the cove sytem ever see's the water.


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## Ptron (Nov 28, 2008)

I appreciate all the replies. We had 1.3" of rain last night and no water. I think I'll start keeping track of rainfall just to get an idea of just how much it takes to start seeing signs of water. Right now I'm starting to think the reasonable thing to do is redo the patio and the grade away from the house and wait a year or so. If that seems to make the water problems go away, then I can finish the basement. If it doesn't, I can decide then if more drastic measures are required or if I should just live with it.

Is there anything a little less drastic than digging down to the base of the foundation that could be done at the same time as the patio/grading that could help? Perhaps installing drain tile just below the surface... or is that a waste of time?



jomama45 said:


> The only problem with that is that he already has current issues inside with the water level. The outside work is definatley a great idea, but it really has to be tied together with an inside sytem to work properly. You can "damproof" the exterior and definately install exterior draintile & stone, but the tile need to empty somewhere, which is most often into the interior draintile, and then to the sump, in which in both cases he doesn't currently have.


 I suppose I could see doing all the outside work if that was the end of it. (It's kind of tempting just from the perspective of getting to put some insulation on those walls) but man, that's a lot of work and money if it only gets you halfway there. The best I could do anyway is ¾ of the way around the house, unless I jackhammer up my driveway.




> OP: I'd be aprehensive about the "cove moulding solution" in the link that you posted. It's fundamental flaw is that is retains the water level/table far higher than it should be. In reality, water can easily present itself at low spots in the floor (in cracks or joints) as well as penetrations like your column posts, long before the cove sytem ever see's the water.


I see your point. Well, it was just an idea for a failsafe. The post where water comes up is in the "unfinished" room and only about 4' away from the drain so it's not a major concern. Perhaps this method is more effective when the problem is water coming through defects in the wall rather than at the base of the foundation.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

You are correct, the exterior excavation is a TON of work, as well as a mess. You're thinking in the right direction by addressing the outside grade first, start with the simplest solutions and go from there. Before I'd suggest the exterior excav. work, just due to the info you gave, I'd probably opt for the interior draintile. That would include sawing & removing a ribbon of floor around the perimeter o fthe basement, & tieing into a crock. This site should give you some background on what that involves:

http://www.mtidry.com/basement/


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Don't forget that there is a post inside the basement that was water around the base. This indicates that the water table is now higher due to the weather, exterior drain tile clogging or a general problem in the area. Waterproofing an exterior wall will not stop the interior post leakage since the water is coming from below and not from wall leakage, which is also the first guess.

Dick


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