# Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?



## lonsplumbing (Aug 4, 2009)

*heater*

Stick with standard hot tanks.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Had one put into my mother's house last year, along with a new furnace and some other improvements. Combined, she is using about 40% less gas. 
I still have a tank myself, but when that one dies (or sooner), it will be replaced by a tankless.
The Navien is a condensing unit, which means it even extracts the heat out of the exhaust fumes. This is about as efficient as you can get.
Note that Navien pat numbers that have the A suffix ( i.e. CR-210-A, which is what was put into my mother's place ) has a very small tank in it that is supposed to keep the water hot if you breifly shut off the water. Sounds like a good idea, but I am not sure if I noticed much difference with the mini-tank though.
I don't live at that house, but when I am there, I can't tell the difference between now and when she had the tank.
There was a recall on it, and the rep came out and changed a board, and another time it sprung a leak that was fixed under warranty. 
I don't want to insult any Koreans who may be viewing this forum, but you have to give strong consideration to a German or Japanese tankless water heater.
You will have two 3" PVC lines going to outdoors, and I believe there is also a condensation line going to water drain. 
I don't notice it as loud at all.


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## luckyd (Aug 27, 2009)

I have a Navien cr-240a that was installed last October. What ever anyone says, does or claims, just remember 1 simple rule:

A tankless water heater will not allow you to run more appliances than you could with your old water heater. It just can supply a near never ending supply of hot water to fixtures. It has the same limitiations that any water heater (tank or tankless) has. Meaning, if you were in the shower and your wife/husband/children flushed the toilet and you got an icy cold shower with your old water heater, the same will happen with your new tankless water heater.

At least that is my experience.

That being said, this is the best thing ever !! Where I live, I have been going through about 1 tanked heater every 3 years !!! I figure if this thing can last at least 10 years, I will break even. any longer is just a bonus.

As far as the recirculating heater goes, it is a great idea. We have ours plumbed to the longest run of line ( kitchen ) and have almost instant hot water. You also have a control much like a furnace control that will allow you to turn the circulating heater on and off ( no sense in heating water while you sleep, or are working). Mine is on only for about an average of 7 hours a day. This comes at a price because the water has to be maintained at a certain tempurature, thereby using more fuel, thereby costing you more. Although, I have to say, I have not really noticed much difference between using the recirculating heater or not.

As far as noise, our is located just under our bedroom. It is sounds very much like our furnace at startup. 

Richard


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## frozenfoodguy (Dec 14, 2009)

*navien cr210*

Had this system install approx 1 year ago. Do not know if i got a lemon but this thing sucks. Which is good if it was a vacuum but it's not. At first it was just a problem with the unit keeping up to demand. This model is supposed to allow up to 2 users or uses at once.Example someone showering and the washing mashine goin or so forth. My unit was not able to keep up with the promise of the demand. The company that installed it did several software upgrades and the problem still persisted. Finally a rep from the company flew out and checked the unit himself. He installed a brand new software app and it was finally doing what it was supposed to do.I thought great problem fixxed. WRONG! Since then it has been shutting down with an error code 22. Something about a limit switch. Now my unit is 6 weeks past 1 year warrenty with the people who installed it and i am having the same problems. The service tech told me the r models have been replaced with the new n model. He said that they had way too many problems with the r model and the company maded the new n unit.I can not say i would recomend this brand to anyone, after 1 year the installers now started to charge for service calls.Hate to think what will happen down the road when everything is off warrenty. Have sent e-mails to navien to switch my unit for an "n" model.No response yet but will post when i here. Anybody else having problems?


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## Raakal (Jan 11, 2010)

I had the Navien 210a installed in December 2009. So far so good. We have a large whirpool bathtub that our conventional water heater was not able to fill (was a 50gal). The Navien unit is working great. We have not experienced the "cold water sandwich" and the heater is preforming as advertised. I would recommend this unit as of right now but we have only had it 1 month. I'll let u all know if my opinion changes in the future.


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## wires (Feb 8, 2010)

We build a house and it came with a CR-240 installed. At first had some issues when there was spikes in water pressure (when you'd quickly cycle a tap for example). The installer came back with the Navien tech's, updated the firmware, and it it's been flawless for a year. Super quiet, and we don't have a shortage of hot water. If you draw too much, it throttles back the outwater output to maintain a constant temp.

Only issue after the update was last night. Middle of a shower, it punks out. Odd I though, cycled the power on it, and it ran for a bit and died again. Popped the cover off, and it was flashing 22.00 / 010E. Hmm... Cycle the power and it ran fine, UNTIL I put the cover back on. Turns out ice fog had frosted over the outside fresh air vent, so it was getting a vaccum in the can. Cleaned the grate, and it's been fine again.

I'd recommend them to anyone that wants the infinite water (great for a giant jetted tub, or multiple family members). They are $$$ though. And not so DIY repair friendly.

The only thing I did to make my setup perfect was hit Home Depot, and bought a little 6 gallon electric waterheater. I plumbed it after the Navien, and set it's thermostat to 120F (to match the tankless). Now you get instant hot water, and it buffers out and temp variations if they should occur. Otherwise, there is a 30-60 second wait for hot water (since it's heated on demand).


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## gerdia (Mar 5, 2010)

*home depot tank*

Wires,

If you wouldn't mind, would you please let me know what kind of electric tank you installed from Home depot and how? I just had the Navien 210A installed and it is taking twice as long as the tank heater to deliver hot water to the faucets. There is a powder room right above the Navien with possibly no more than 4 feet of pipe and it still takes 57sec for the hot water to reach it. The tank heater would get there in about 15sec. Thank you for any info you might share.


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## gerdia (Mar 5, 2010)

does anyone know of an easy recirc system to install with the Navien 210A tankless? This unit is taking 60 sec to deliver hot water to faucet that is right above it, no more than 3 to 4 feet of piping. Navien rep coming out on 3/23 but in speaking with him over the phone he already sounds convinced that the unit is working properly. And maybe it is, but double the hot water delivery is hard to deal with. We basically have no hot water to wash our hands with, by the time the hot water gets there we're done.


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

I installed a Bosch whole house tankless unit a few years ago - works great, never have had a problem with it. Would not go back to having a tanked heater.


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## wires (Feb 8, 2010)

gerdia said:


> Wires,
> 
> If you wouldn't mind, would you please let me know what kind of electric tank you installed from Home depot and how? I just had the Navien 210A installed and it is taking twice as long as the tank heater to deliver hot water to the faucets. There is a powder room right above the Navien with possibly no more than 4 feet of pipe and it still takes 57sec for the hot water to reach it. The tank heater would get there in about 15sec. Thank you for any info you might share.


 
It was a GE Smart Water heater. Tag says 36 litres, and it's a 120V unit. Putting something like this after the Navien will solve that problem. The issue with the tankless heaters, is there will always be a lag of about 60 second before full hot water (time the burner sparks up and comes to temperature). Exception would be one with teh recirculation accumulator after it.

With the electric one afterwards, you get that speed/conveinince of a tank unit, with the infinite water from the tankless unit. And you lose that "cold water sandwich" that used to get me in the shower all the time. :laughing:


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

If you are having any problems with the time it takes to get hot water to your faucets this is a great product that I have installed for several clients of mine. If you have the A model Navien then all you would need is the special valve that comes in this kit. I don't know if it is sold separately http://www.google.com/products/cata...ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBYQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers
This system works by pumping water through your hot water line, during the set times on the pump, and then back down the cold water line to the water heater again. The great thing about this is that you can install this without running a new recirc line to the farthest faucet. The only down side is that your water in your cold line will be warm. Not really a problem for the most part. Just a few sec of running and you can get a cold drink of water. 
This special valve has a non-electric switch that opens and sends water from the hot side to the cold side when the temp in the hot side gets too low. You will only get hot water recirc if the pump is running at the same time this valve opens. Most people set the pump to run in the morning and at night before bed. If you set it for 15 mins of run time every 30 mins or so you should have fairly warm water at the faucet at those times. The great thing about this valve is that if the water at the faucet is hot enough then the pump just spins and is unable to send water down the line. This means that your water heater will not turn on and not waste energy. I would highly recommend hiring a licensed plumber that installs tankless water heaters to install this unit. That way you are sure to get the best efficiency out of you tankless unit and not waste all the savings of having a tankless water heater. 
The biggest reason that it takes longer to get hot water with a tankless unit than a tank unit is that the tank unit is very inefficient and heats the water in the line going to the faucets by convection. It's not the fault of the tankless unit it's just a perk of a tank unit. Which i must say is far out balanced by the savings in energy with the tankless units.
Adding a tank unit to heat the water after you tankless unit defeats the purpose of the tankless unit. The only reason that you save any money with the tankless unit is that it's not heating the water all the time. Plus 110V tank water heaters are very inefficient. 240V is much better. But why have a tankless then.


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## wires (Feb 8, 2010)

For my Navien, I'd have to live in this house for about 20 years to recoup the capital investment from the Navien.

With the setup I'm running, the Navien is basically heating the tanked unit, so the amount of energy wasted by the little tanked unit isn't that much. It's not being used to heat cold water, it's basically just holding hot water (the reason I decided on picking up a cheaper 120V unit).

As far as I'm concerned, I'm about the comfort and the infinite hot water. The Navien came with our house when it was built, and I love it, but I wouldn't be forking out the $2400 to buy one to save energy, when a high end tanked unit is $500-600, and lacks all the complexity and electronics than a tanked unit has.

The actual real reason for me adding the tanked unit was when we first moved in, the Navien had an old firmware version on the processor board. Every time a water tap was quickly cycled, it would put a water spike on the Navien, causing it to shut down. Then you'd get a slug of ice cold water and it would fire back up again. Not very enjoyable when you're in the shower, and you're wife is brushing her teeth.....


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

It's hard to compare tank to tankless for pricing. But the closest take style you could get would be a powervent gas water heater. Installed avg price about $1400. Tankless navien installed for approx $2800. Less 30% energy credit just under $700 brings is down to $700 difference. Average energy use for a year, gas tank approx $500-600 tankless $266. Savings of $234-$334 per year. We see a payback of 3 years Max!

But I do understand the cold bubble problem, I have that with my Rinnai too. I'll be getting the Navien NNR210A with the tank and recirc system.
Although it's not the bringing of the temp to 120 that costs any different, it's maintaining the temp 24/7. An electric water heater is 100% efficient. 

If you are going to get a tankless heater do it by the end of 2010. That's when the credit runs out. This credit applies to all work that is done with the installing of the water heater, gas lines etc.


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## wires (Feb 8, 2010)

Here is an exert from Consumer Reports on tankless vs tanked units:

"Heating water accounts for up to 30 percent of the average home's energy budget. Some makers of gas-fired tankless water heaters claim their products can cut your energy costs up to half over regular storage heaters. So is it time to switch?

Probably not. Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy efficient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 national energy costs. But because they cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up to 22 years to break even—longer than the 20-year life of many models. Moreover, our online poll of 1,200 readers revealed wide variations in installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction.".

They go into more detail on their website. I personally don't have concrete data on how much the tankless saves or doesn't save, since we moved into a new home, with twin furnaces and a tankless uni (from an older home with a tanked unit and single furnace).

I would be interested in hearing from someone that swapped out an old tanked unit for a tankless unit in an existing home, as you'd know immediately the results.


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

Yes that's a very interesting study. I've seen statements made like that before by people, could very well have come from that very article. They are right when they say that tankless units are only 22% more efficient than there tank counterparts. The efficiency rating is a measurement of how much of the energy, measured in BTU's, is used for the task being done. They measure that based on the number of BTU's into the unit and the amount that comes out as waste fumes. 
This is a good basis for comparing apples to apples. In this thread we are comparing tankless, (apples) and tanked, (oranges). The proper way to tell the energy savings of one over the other is to compare the total energy each one uses over the course of a year. Or as you suggested a before and after test. 

I have had the opportunity of doing just that with customers. They showed a savings of nearly 50% in there gas bill. I have a tankless unit in my home and that is the only gas appliance i have. My gas bill is $13 a month and $5 of that is as service fee! The Center for Energy posts yearly operating costs of most appliances, much like the gas mileage posted on new cars. 
Not everyone will get the same savings. A family that is home all day and is using water on and off all day will not get as much savings out of the tankless as someone that uses it only in the morning and evening. 
Again the main reason we save money with tankless units is not just the efficiency rating, but the fact that it only runs when you need it. It's suggested that 30-40% of the operating costs of water heaters are not in making cold water hot but keeping hot water hot.
But as was said before, and i would agree, it's just nice to have never ending hot water!


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## rdill (Mar 10, 2010)

*Experience with Tankless water heaters*

I made the switch and I'll never go back. In my house I have a Takagi which has been excellent for three years so far. It does have its compromises.

Gas fired tankless heaters can cover only about a 10x range of heat. If they are rated at 7 gpm, they will be excellent for up to that ... BUT

That also means that they don't work at below 0.7 gpm, which is still a large flow. If you want a trickle of warm water while brushing your teeth, be prepared for it to go cold as soon as the water stored in the pipes runs out.

My solution to this was to put a 2.5 gallon Bosch tank heater in line with the tankless. I've used them in single sink installations with good success. It buffers the tankless heater and my wife has only managed to defeat the system a couple of times.

Unfortunately, the Bosch developed a leak after two years. I will have to put up with complaints from the wife until I get a replacement in place.

My next installation will use a smaller tankless water heater with a lower low flow cut-off. If too many people try to shower at a time, the water will be only warm (but not cold as you get when your tank runs out).

I am more driven by performance than costs, but the cost advantage comes because you don't keep a large tank hot, whether you use water or not. The numbers on payback may be right, but I expect the tankless to last a lot longer than the tank.

Rick


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## jerome olson (Mar 11, 2010)

*wholesaler of naviens*



frozenfoodguy said:


> Had this system install approx 1 year ago. Do not know if i got a lemon but this thing sucks. Which is good if it was a vacuum but it's not. At first it was just a problem with the unit keeping up to demand. This model is supposed to allow up to 2 users or uses at once.Example someone showering and the washing mashine goin or so forth. My unit was not able to keep up with the promise of the demand. The company that installed it did several software upgrades and the problem still persisted. Finally a rep from the company flew out and checked the unit himself. He installed a brand new software app and it was finally doing what it was supposed to do.I thought great problem fixxed. WRONG! Since then it has been shutting down with an error code 22. Something about a limit switch. Now my unit is 6 weeks past 1 year warrenty with the people who installed it and i am having the same problems. The service tech told me the r models have been replaced with the new n model. He said that they had way too many problems with the r model and the company maded the new n unit.I can not say i would recomend this brand to anyone, after 1 year the installers now started to charge for service calls.Hate to think what will happen down the road when everything is off warrenty. Have sent e-mails to navien to switch my unit for an "n" model.No response yet but will post when i here. Anybody else having problems?


then the heater was not installed correct!


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## Heoman (Apr 11, 2010)

coolluke01
I have a question regarding the use of the 'autocirc' valve, did you use the internal circ pump?


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

My gas usage compared to peers - Bosch tankless, I like.

SoCal - 1800 Sq feet - 2 adults - built in 84' - gas heat and hot water


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Recirc pump*

I think it's best to get the A unit because it has both the pump and the tank. The pump can be run through an existing recirc line or bypassed inside. In either case the pump can be set to run at times you set on the controler. I am installing a NR 210A in my home soon and I'll be installing a recirc line to the upstairs bathroom.


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## Heoman (Apr 11, 2010)

Dude,
I have a CR240A, my old system with the hot water tank was equipped with the Laing Autocirc. I was going to install the pump/timer into the line with the Navien, but.......will the integral recirc pump perform the task? And have you run this format


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

The CR unit has a different config than the NR units that I use. I have seen the config of both units and I believe that it should work. There is a 3 way valve in the unit. This will have to be set to the proper position for the intended use.


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## Rhizzlebop (Jan 28, 2009)

I think I can clarify some confusion here. I'm an engineer and spec systems like this sometimes.

The sandwich is this: You turn on a faucet, the water flows, the heater fires, the water gets hot as its flowing to a faucet. Ok, so hot water finally gets to ur faucet and you feel it. great. 

Now you turn off the faucet, the water stops flowing, the burner stops and the burner area cools rapidly. The water you already heated and pushed down the line is still hot.

In 10 or 15 minutes you decide to shower. This shower is near or along the path to the faucet you just used. You turn on the shower, the water starts flowing again and you feel hot water there almost immediately because its already been warm in the lines from using the faucet. 
You say GREAT, and jump right on in the shower.

Back at the burner, when water started flowing again (as you turned on the shower) a bit of cold water came into the burner and got past it before getting heated as the burned was firing and getting going.

So, now you're in the shower with warm water, and this "slug" of cold is now coming down the line after your warm, and in front of your hot water.

Theres the cold slug. Suddenly, surprisingly, you get hit by this blast of cold water. BAM, unhappy owner.


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## Rhizzlebop (Jan 28, 2009)

I would like to add, that the ones with a small internal buffer tank fix that issue because that first bit of cold, mixes in the little buffer tank w the hot already there, and nullifies the cold blast. However, installing a 6 gallong tank in line negates more savings because you are now losing heat through all the surface area of that tank.

The ratio of tank volume to surface works against you here. 
ie: a 6 gallon tank might have 300 sq inches of surface area, but a 12 gallon tank might only have 400 (not double). So, even a small tank, still has a significant surface area to lose heat through.

The little recirc systems do work. Remember you gotta use check valves because if not, depending on how your pressure drop is through your lines, you could open a cold faucet, and if its easier for water to push through your hot line than cold, then it'll come through the heater, bypass your recirc loop, and go to the sink through the cold side. GOTTA use check valve that prevent backwards flow.


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## Rhizzlebop (Jan 28, 2009)

The last thing I wanted to add here, was to a poster on page one here. He seemed disappointed that the installer had told him he could run all his things and not get cold spots like, from flushing a toilet.

These tankless manufactuers size their units on a 40degree rise. So, taking water from 80 to 120. When they list a model as a 6 GPM, they mean 6 GPM at 40 degree rise. Noone I know has 80 degree entering water.

Around here, in South Carolina, our summer water temp is about 65 and our winter water temp is around 50.

So, in winter, worst case, we need to go from 50 to 120 so a 70 degree rise.

They have charts to pick a unit to do that and what fow it'll give you.

Usually, a rated 6 GPM unit, will only give ya about 4 at a "real world" temp rise.

With ALL that said, it doesn't matter what kind of heater you use. Even if you have a bull gassing into a bucket with a hose laying in it for your heat source, the toilet flush will always give you a cold shock becaue your water lines aren't sized for the correct pressure drop. Most residences aren't. They just plumb in what looks good. 
When you flush a toilet, it changes your static and residual pressure ratios in your hot and cold system and since both sides aren't balanced it changes your hot to cold ratio and you'll get a cold blast.

The only way to fix that is to replumb your house, or to install a pressure balancing shower valve. They sell shower valve assemblies that monitor the flow coming to the shower head and move the internal valve position to keep your water temp the same flowing from the head.


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## Alanl00s3 (Apr 26, 2010)

Another aspect to consider before purchasing Navien is their customer support attitude ... or lack thereof. The PVC elbow (water feed) inside the case of our CR-180A sprung a pinhole leak, spraying fine mist and soaking all components for weeks or more before the system board failed (puddles of rust left on bottom of case made it obvious that metal mechanical supports as well as exposed Belkin connectors had been corroding. High-resistance contacts, anyone?). Local tech could *not* get the Navien support engineer in Calif to agree to a unit return. They shipped a new board, despite my protest that all electrical components and contacts had been soaked (there was a warning in the Navien installation manual that the unit was not designed for humid environments!!). A few weeks later, the system is now failing multiple times a day. Navien tech support in Calif refuses to send the local rep anything more than a replacement transformer as their next attempt at hit-or-mis diagnostics at our expense (no hot water at all for 3 days now ... second multi-day incident of no hot water in 2 months). Dealing with these people feels like dealing with the gate keeper of some insurance company. Based on their utter lack of consideration of customer service as well as a suspect level of competence in their tech support team, I strongly recommend avoiding them.


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## slickgt1 (Apr 1, 2010)

I have it too. I like it. You can hear it when in the garage, but not noticable in the house. Takes a while for the water to come, but the benefit of saving on gas is better than the little wait.


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## angkor (Aug 10, 2010)

After two years, my Navien "A" model quit completely due to a design flaw. The company replaced it with a new model, but I'm out of pocket on additional labor costs to the tune of a thousand bucks. Also, I had spent extra for the recirculation model, only to find out it doesn't work in big houses. Navien produces an inferior product and its service back-up stinks.


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## baxp (Aug 25, 2010)

*Tankless WAter Heater*

I just purchased a Bosch 2700ES-NG but, I don't think I'm going to install
it. I started comparing my gas bill with what possible savings I might gain.
We have the normal 2 1/2 bath home, plus my wife has a beauty shop in the house. I've had my two grandsons staying with me all summer and they can use some hot water. With all of this, my gas bill is still only $30.00 a month.Even if this Bosch water heater cut my bill in half it would take a minimum of 15 years just to recover the cost over a standard gas heater. By then the unit may have to be replaced and you start all over again.:whistling2:


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## Rhizzlebop (Jan 28, 2009)

Correction, by then the unit WILL have to be replaced, or at least have to have had some service, so you can extend that 15 years right on out further.

Its a convenience only. If you have a lot of people, or like long baths, or wanna sex it up in the shower for an hour, great, you wont run out.
If you have a huge demand, such as a school multishower facility, you need them. If you have a bank of 10 shower in a locker, by code, you'd end up needing to store something like 1000 gallons of hot water with the capacity of another 100 per hour recovery. Thats often not feasible, so we'll design in a couple of these so we can get around 20 GPM of hot continuously.

Aside from that, don't bother. You'll never see the money back.


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## coolluke01 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Payback*

I guess I don't follow your math. If you avrage gas cost for a standard tank unit is 30 per month. That's $360 per year. If a tankless unit only saves you half (which it will for sure if you buy a good condensing one) that's $180 per year. It looks like the avrage price for a tankless unit installed is about $2800. You have to also figure the 30% credit which would be about $800. Now the tankless costs $2000 And a tank style is $1000 for an electric and about $1500 for a power vented gas installed. We are only looking at a difference of $1000. 1000/ 180 = 5.5 years. Not a bad pay back.
Or $500 which would be a payback of 2.75 years!
My advice would be to return the Bosch. They really don't work very well in most places. I know of many people that have ended up pulling them out. I would hire a plumber that installs either navien or rinnai and have them install a condensing unit. Then you will get the proper gas line installed and everything will be guaranteed. 
I have install dozens of both brands and they are very good.


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## angkor (Aug 10, 2010)

*Navien*

As I said in my earlier post, my Navien unit had to be entirely replaced after only two years because of a design flaw. The warranty covered labor only up to a year, so I'm out $1000 on the second installation. I wrote to the company to protest this since their design flaw was at fault. No reply.

Only one plumbing outfit installs/services Navien in my region and they're considering dropping the brand altogether because of the recurrent service calls and problems.

Reading the various chatrooms on tankless heaters, I'm struck by the finicky nature of these units and consequent accrued costs. If I had to do it over again, I would've gone for the most energy efficient tank heater.


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## slickgt1 (Apr 1, 2010)

You guys also need to realize the fact that once this unit is installed, properly, replacing it with the same one is fairly simple. Shut off water, gas, breaker, take off plumbing and replace. I made sure I put valved on all the plumbing around the units. If someone is also charging $1k to replace this, you need to look elsewhere. 

One more major factor for a lot of people is the space that it saves. I have 2, 2 family houses. One house with 3 baths, one with 5. The fact that I can split the gas bill between the two units is great. Both these tank-less in each house take up 1/4 the space of ONE 75gal tank unit. The savings in these situations are even more noticeable. The 75gal heaters I had, were not cheap either, the gas bills went down 60% on the average. I can't tell for sure because cooking, heat, and hot water, all use the same gas. But the savings are there.


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## installr (Sep 7, 2010)

hi,,as for the efficiency costs, no one has mentioned the usage of combustion air that the gas tank heater uses and associated costs with that(assuming all air is supplied from inside). Up here in Canada, the CGA gives an annual average usage for canadian residential properties (2009 data) 2,626 cubic meters. Now this equates to 92,736 cubic feet; and it takes minimum of 15x amount of air for combustion ( 10x theoretical, and 5x secondary air), so now we're talking about 1,391,040 cubic feet of air required to combust this 92736 cubic feet of gas --- now no matter how you calculate the cost of conditioning your house air per cubic foot,,,its an added expense that is not being considered, and im sure it makes somewhat of a difference when you take into account how much electricity you're air conditioner uses, to cool off the tank water heater's combustion air. now all this being said, cut those numbers by the percentage of the 92736 that the tank water heater uses, and this will surely make more of a savings than has been calculated so far by the previous posts...by the way,,great thread guys.


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## angkor (Aug 10, 2010)

*Navien*



slickgt1 said:


> You guys also need to realize the fact that once this unit is installed, properly, replacing it with the same one is fairly simple. Shut off water, gas, breaker, take off plumbing and replace. I made sure I put valved on all the plumbing around the units. If someone is also charging $1k to replace this, *you need to look elsewhere*.


Sure, if you live in NYC, or some other metropolis. Here, in North Country New York there are a mere handful of authorized Navien installers. In my area, there's only one (count 'em: one) authorized installer within a hundred miles. As for warranty repairs, Navien won't deal with non-authorized installers (if you could find one who would even take the job because they don't know the product). My failed unit was under warranty for replacement (the labor coverage expired). Navien identified the installer (100 miles away) and would deal only with them. Period. I was between a rock and a hard place. The installer, in fact, is excellent with a longstanding positive reputation. It took them four hours to put in the new unit.


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## slickgt1 (Apr 1, 2010)

installr said:


> hi,,as for the efficiency costs, no one has mentioned the usage of combustion air that the gas tank heater uses and associated costs with that(assuming all air is supplied from inside). Up here in Canada, the CGA gives an annual average usage for canadian residential properties (2009 data) 2,626 cubic meters. Now this equates to 92,736 cubic feet; and it takes minimum of 15x amount of air for combustion ( 10x theoretical, and 5x secondary air), so now we're talking about 1,391,040 cubic feet of air required to combust this 92736 cubic feet of gas --- now no matter how you calculate the cost of conditioning your house air per cubic foot,,,its an added expense that is not being considered, and im sure it makes somewhat of a difference when you take into account how much electricity you're air conditioner uses, to cool off the tank water heater's combustion air. now all this being said, cut those numbers by the percentage of the 92736 that the tank water heater uses, and this will surely make more of a savings than has been calculated so far by the previous posts...by the way,,great thread guys.


No not really what you think. First of this unit needs fresh air, as in a you run a pipe to the outside to get air. You do not take this air from inside, and you do not vent the air to the inside. You have no idea what you are talking about here.


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## slickgt1 (Apr 1, 2010)

angkor said:


> Sure, if you live in NYC, or some other metropolis. Here, in North Country New York there are a mere handful of authorized Navien installers. In my area, there's only one (count 'em: one) authorized installer within a hundred miles. As for warranty repairs, Navien won't deal with non-authorized installers (if you could find one who would even take the job because they don't know the product). My failed unit was under warranty for replacement (the labor coverage expired). Navien identified the installer (100 miles away) and would deal only with them. Period. I was between a rock and a hard place. The installer, in fact, is excellent with a longstanding positive reputation. It took them four hours to put in the new unit.


you have a point. Only thing I'm saying is that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to install one, let alone replace one. Yea its involved, and you would need help, but they come with instructions too.


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## Rhizzlebop (Jan 28, 2009)

Slick, that was one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on any forum.


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## installr (Sep 7, 2010)

slickgt1 said:


> No not really what you think. First of this unit needs fresh air, as in a you run a pipe to the outside to get air. You do not take this air from inside, and you do not vent the air to the inside. You have no idea what you are talking about here.


hey there slick...you better read my post a little better, or quit drinkin' ...of course the TANKLESS has air in and out from the outside. its the TANK heater i am describing. i think you are the high school drop out that has a little trouble with the english comprehension (komp-re-hen-shun)


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## slickgt1 (Apr 1, 2010)

One, I'm Russian, so there might be a language barrier, especially when talking to ********. Two, I'm a mechanical engineer from Russia, and went through Polytechnic U in NY to get re-certified. Trust me, you wouldn't be able to hack it in all the schooling I've been through. It just happened that I make more, and do less in construction. 

Three, yea I misread your post installr, no need to attack me for that. I may or may not have been hung over, I don't see it as a problem though. 

Four, we had these tank-less systems in Russia about 15-20 years ago. Not as nice as the new modern stuff, but the idea is the same. All I have been trying to state on this thread, is that they are efficient, and I try to sell them on every job I take. 

P.S. I am not affiliated with any of these companies, nor is this my main area of expertise.


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