# ARC Fault Breakers tripping after a fan install.



## jAutumna (Mar 13, 2008)

~ I just wanted to ask if it is possible to switch out an ARC Fault Breaker and replace it w/ a plain Circuit Breaker w/out any real hassle?

-J.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jAutumna said:


> ~ I just wanted to ask if it is possible to switch out an ARC Fault Breaker and replace it w/ a plain Circuit Breaker w/out any real hassle?
> 
> -J.


That depends...

is it a bedroom?
was your house built after 1999? or, is it work that was done after 1999, as in a compleete remodel or an addition?
Does your code have the arc fault in it? my local area removed the arc fault requirement, as have many areas, but not all.


But more inportant, WHY is it tripping the arc fault? how often?


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## jAutumna (Mar 13, 2008)

It is a bedroom. I had the home built in 2007. The ARC requirements came out in June of 2005. I don't plan on moving anytime soon, so would switching breakers work?

-J.



CowboyAndy said:


> That depends...
> 
> is it a bedroom?
> was your house built after 1999? or, is it work that was done after 1999, as in a complete remodel or an addition?
> ...


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

In this case I would want to know why it is tripping. It might be saving you from a very expensive fire and even loss of life. Just my opinion.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jAutumna said:


> It is a bedroom. I had the home built in 2007. The ARC requirements came out in June of 2005. I don't plan on moving anytime soon, so would switching breakers work?
> 
> -J.


Legally, no. They are required by code.

Like I said, you would spend your time better finding out WHY it is tripping it. I have several fans in my house that are on arc fault breakers, and have NEVER tripped. 8 times out of 10, if a breaker is tripping all the time there is a problem with the wiring. 1 out of 10 is a faulty breaker and 1 out of 10 is an overload.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jrclen said:


> In this case I would want to know why it is tripping. It might be saving you from a very expensive fire and even loss of life. Just my opinion.


Exactly.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

jAutumna said:


> ~ I just wanted to ask if it is possible to switch out an ARC Fault Breaker and replace it w/ a plain Circuit Breaker w/out any real hassle?
> 
> -J.


 
Unfortetally no if your state is allready required the AFCI we can not inverted back to normal breaker.

if you have issue with it senice you mention after you install the new fan there is possiblty there is a netural wire touching the ground wire it can trip the AFCI [ they can get pretty picky with it ] only way you can slove it is check the wire connection and make sure there is no other " bare " or uninsluated wire touching any spot at all even a little nick on it can trip them.

if the wire is really good shape no nick of whatever it is [ this fan trip after you turn on the switch ?? { it is a wall switch or remote or pull chain fan switch } ] 

let us know first then we may able help ya in the right way.

Merci, Marc


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

*AFCI BREAKER trips with ceiling fan*

According to MIKE HOLT the AFCI breakers don't like some motor circuits. You need to have a qualified/good electrician check out the problem. Tread mill motors have been triping AFCI breakers also. If the electrician finds no problem with the circuit he could pull power from a non AFCI protected circuit for the fan/light and switch. Only the receptacles have to be on an AFCI breaker. This information came from a Licensed/Master Electrician friend of mine, and MIKE HOLT. Square D had a recall on some breakers that didn't work correctly. You could try a new AFCI breaker.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

RobertS said:


> According to MIKE HOLT the AFCI breakers don't like some motor circuits. You need to have a qualified/good electrician check out the problem. Tread mill motors have been triping AFCI breakers also. If the electrician finds no problem with the circuit he could pull power from a non AFCI protected circuit for the fan/light and switch. Only the receptacles have to be on an AFCI breaker. This information came from a Licensed/Master Electrician friend of mine, and MIKE HOLT.


In the 2008 edition, EVERYTHING has to be arc fault (for a bedroom at least). Lights, smokes, etc.


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

Talk to Mike Holt


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

I will check again thanks. Either way the fan might not work. Do you have the location for that code.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

210.12(B) Dwelling Units, All 120-volt, single-phase, 15-and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining tooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation tooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc fault circuit interupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.


It encompasses EVERYTHING in the room, not just receps.


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

Never mind I found the info. I thought they had a handle on AFCI breakers now. I guess motors, and capacitors still mess with them. I have had Microwaves trip them also. I guess it is the high voltage transformer/capacitor circuit.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Do you have the article that outlines just the changes to the 08 code? someone posted it here and I found it to be really helpful.

http://tnblnx3.tnb.com/emAlbum/albums//endeca_merch_rules/nec_2008_lr_bm.pdf


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## RobertS (Feb 2, 2008)

I have that but I was told it was changed because of so much trouble with false tripping of the breakers. I'm sooooo confused.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

RobertS said:


> I have that but I was told it was changed because of so much trouble with false tripping of the breakers. I'm sooooo confused.


Code isnt easy to understand sometimes!

I try not to rely on what people say, especially if I can't verify it in the code.

Read that article, it outlines alot of changes.


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## jAutumna (Mar 13, 2008)

Maybe I should have clarified this earlier:

~ I'm installing Minka radio controlled ceiling fans.
~ Everything has been assembled correctly. The tripping is coming from the sudden change in voltage that ARC suspects from the radio frequency. It thinks it's a fault in wiring.
~ I was told by Minka that the safest bet was to go pull chain, however gawdy they are.

Now any thoughts?

-J.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

You can go with pull chain fan/lights, as long as the room has a switched light of some kind already.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

jAutumna said:


> Maybe I should have clarified this earlier:
> 
> ~ I'm installing Minka radio controlled ceiling fans.
> ~ Everything has been assembled correctly. The tripping is coming from the sudden change in voltage that ARC suspects from the radio frequency. It thinks it's a fault in wiring.
> ...


Does pulling the chain solve the tripping problem? If so, this is an interesting case.


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> In the 2008 edition, EVERYTHING has to be arc fault (for a bedroom at least). Lights, smokes, etc.


Everything in the bedroom (withand exception) had to be AFCI in the 05 code also.


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

Changing the Arc Fault Breaker to a regular breaker is not as bad as screwing a nickel into the base of a blown screw in fuse, but its covered in the same book. 

Like was stated before, its tripping for a reason. Better figure out why.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

jcalvin said:


> Changing the Arc Fault Breaker to a regular breaker is not as bad as screwing a nickel into the base of a blown screw in fuse, but its covered in the same book.
> 
> Like was stated before, its tripping for a reason. Better figure out why.


You must have come from a well to do family. We used pennies. :laughing:


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

RobertS said:


> I have that but I was told it was changed because of so much trouble with false tripping of the breakers. I'm sooooo confused.


There is no problem with false tripping, only problems with people doing crappy electrical work...


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

2008 AFCI requirements...


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

chris75 said:


> There is no problem with false tripping, only problems with people doing crappy electrical work...


I ran into a funny one last year. While replacing a ballast in a kitchen light, the lady of the house asked me to take out that junk gf whatever it's called in the bathroom by the sink, and put in a real receptacle. She said the damn thing hasn't worked since it was installed 2 years ago during the bathroom remodel. Never did work she said. I pulled it out and discovered a ground wire laying against the neutral screw. I was amazed they lived with it not working for 2 years, blaming it on that junk gf whatever it's called. :laughing:


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## End Grain (Nov 17, 2007)

JAutumna, if your fan's remote control transceiver and receiver have settable DIP switches, try a completely different switch setting - the same setting in each - which will change the remore control's frequency. Definitely a longshot suggestion here, but it may help.

Certain remote controlled objects can adversely affect other things in the vicinity, e.g. a fan, when switched to a higher or lower speed or on or off, will cause a loud crack or pop in a TV or radio, possibly even a channel change.

You have nothing to lose by trying another setting, other than some time.

I hope you find a suitable resolution to your problem.


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

jrclen said:


> You must have come from a well to do family. We used pennies. :laughing:


We saved the pennies to sell for scrap copper so that we trade them in for more nickels. The nickels take longer to burn out.:thumbup:


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## wire_twister (Feb 19, 2008)

chris75 said:


> There is no problem with false tripping, only problems with people doing crappy electrical work...


What type of breakers are you using Chris? I have had several arc fault breakers that gave me trouble, ended up replacing them with another arc fault breaker to clear up the problem(I hope).


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## btrvalik (Mar 19, 2008)

I had the same problem with AFCI tripping a heavy duty treadmill 15A motor. Funny thing was that it was never when under load, it would only happen on initial power-up.. before the "thread" was every put into motion. After pulling the cover off, I noticed it had a nice big cap and I believe it was an in-rush issue. I changed out the breaker for a non-afci breaker and that fixed the problem. A few years later we moved it to another room and once again needed to change the breaker. I have another friend that had the same issue with a refrigerator.. he was not comfortable with changing the breaker so instead he has a radio on the same circuit an if the radio goes off he know to reset the breaker.. what a PIA!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

wire_twister said:


> What type of breakers are you using Chris? I have had several arc fault breakers that gave me trouble, ended up replacing them with another arc fault breaker to clear up the problem(I hope).



I only use GE, and I have never once had a call back...


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

btrvalik said:


> I had the same problem with AFCI tripping a heavy duty treadmill 15A motor. Funny thing was that it was never when under load, it would only happen on initial power-up.. before the "thread" was every put into motion. After pulling the cover off, I noticed it had a nice big cap and I believe it was an in-rush issue. I changed out the breaker for a non-afci breaker and that fixed the problem. A few years later we moved it to another room and once again needed to change the breaker. I have another friend that had the same issue with a refrigerator.. he was not comfortable with changing the breaker so instead he has a radio on the same circuit an if the radio goes off he know to reset the breaker.. what a PIA!


Its doing its job, the fridge has current leakage causing the AFCI to trip... Gezz, sucks when saving your life is such an inconvenience...


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

I have had arc fault breakers in 3 bedrooms now for a few years, never had a false trip. 

I agree with whoever said that some alot of trips are because of an underlying issue. Not all... but I have heard of alot of the very early ones false tripping. In that case, the best solution would be to replace with a newer one (if it is deemed that there is NO other issue). 

Remember, if the house was built or work was done after '99 in alot of places, you now have a code violation by not having them.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

jcalvin said:


> We saved the pennies to sell for scrap copper so that we trade them in for more nickels. The nickels take longer to burn out.:thumbup:


Oh yeah I never thought of that. Thanks for the tip. I tried a roll of pennies to replace a cartridge fuse, but it wouldn't work with the paper on and with the paper off it was really hard to keep them stacked up. I couldn't afford copper tubing. :laughing:


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