# Concrete Steps done by Contractor with no rebar is OK?



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Most steps and patio's here in WI are floating slabs, and move with the frost. It appears they're pouring the concrete steps against a frost protected stoop, with no expansion material to separate the two. THAT would concern me for sure. If the patio/steps heave/settle slightly, how will that affect them when they're wedged tight against the stoop? (I already know the answer, unfortunately)

As for rebar, it's cheap insurance IMPO, but the industry standard don't typically call for it.

Can't offer opinion on mud stains and paying the contractor in full, I'm not a lawyer. And if I was, I wouldn't be offering free advice on the web, anyways......


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## sailplane (Aug 19, 2016)

jomama45 said:


> Most steps and patio's here in WI are floating slabs, and move with the frost. It appears they're pouring the concrete steps against a frost protected stoop, with no expansion material to separate the two. THAT would concern me for sure. If the patio/steps heave/settle slightly, how will that affect them when they're wedged tight against the stoop? (I already know the answer, unfortunately)
> 
> As for rebar, it's cheap insurance IMPO, but the industry standard don't typically call for it.
> 
> Can't offer opinion on mud stains and paying the contractor in full, I'm not a lawyer. And if I was, I wouldn't be offering free advice on the web, anyways......


Yes the concrete is poured directly against the foundation. There is a cold cellar underneath the porch.. What can happen if the steps move?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

sailplane said:


> Yes the concrete is poured directly against the foundation. There is a cold cellar underneath the porch.. What can happen if the steps move?


More than likely, they'll pinch and chip at the top. Frost protected and non-frost protected elements should always be separated from each other with expansion joint.......


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

There are things that work in your favor.
Concrete shrinks a little as it drys.
New concrete does not stick well to old concrete.
When you have settling or heaving it goes straight up and straight down.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*sometimes we use rebar but not often,,, we would've used isolation jnt mtl between new steps & porch but NEVER dowel into the porch/house/basement wall anything,,, straight up and straight down may be the rule in canada but not in the states,,, can't address color & mud items either*


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*uncertain any nassau/suffolk pavers want work in ontario, ca, but 1 never knows*


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## sailplane (Aug 19, 2016)

stadry said:


> *sometimes we use rebar but not often,,, we would've used isolation jnt mtl between new steps & porch but NEVER dowel into the porch/house/basement wall anything,,, straight up and straight down may be the rule in canada but not in the states,,, can't address color & mud items either*


They used some small screws into the porch to tie wires that hold the pouring forms. I guess the will shear off/break apart in one way or another once the entire slab moves.

The thickness is about 5.5" , the relief cut lines are only 0.25" deep though.

Any idea if that will cause cracking in random spots for sure?
They should've cut the relief lines much deeper according to the rules I found online, about 1.25" actually.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

sailplane said:


> The thickness is about 5.5" , the relief cut lines are only 0.25" deep though.
> 
> Any idea if that will cause cracking in random spots for sure?
> They should've cut the relief lines much deeper according to the rules I found online, about 1.25" actually.


The general rule, that's been around for many decades, is 1/4 the thickness for reliable crack control. Before you get too far, double check that the joints are indeed only .25"deep. Often, they're full of concrete dust and "look" shallow, but areactully sawn much deeper. My measuring tool of choice is the blade from a utility knife. Pull it out and drag it in a few inches of joint. They're about 2.5" long, halfway up the blade is just about the right depth.

If the joints are indeed only .25"deep, they're likely doing very little and I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually discover random cracking outside of the inadequate joints.......


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## sailplane (Aug 19, 2016)

jomama45 said:


> The general rule, that's been around for many decades, is 1/4 the thickness for reliable crack control. Before you get too far, double check that the joints are indeed only .25"deep. Often, they're full of concrete dust and "look" shallow, but areactully sawn much deeper. My measuring tool of choice is the blade from a utility knife. Pull it out and drag it in a few inches of joint. They're about 2.5" long, halfway up the blade is just about the right depth.
> 
> If the joints are indeed only .25"deep, they're likely doing very little and I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually discover random cracking outside of the inadequate joints.......


For sure it is around 0.25" picture attached, pushed knife in as hard as possible.

At the bottom left of the picture of the entire patio is the only place where it is around 1", and you can see in the picture the color of the relief cut changes to become darker for about 6"-1 foot there... not sure why they got it more deep there and not everywhere else.


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## keepingyawn (6 mo ago)

That is certainly not okay. And sadly, I'm talking from my own unfortunate experience with building concrete steps. I tried to do everything on my own, and I thought rebar wasn't necessary. Well, as you can already guess, it was. Concrete steps must have rebar installed to reinforce the structure. The steps should be reinforced with a lattice of rebar that also ties into the concrete sidewalk at the top of the steps. That is super important to hold it all together. I only learned all that after hiring the guys from masonry contractors Midland TX to help.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Sad you had the problem, too. But it is a 3 year old thread that has probably been concluded with the OP


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