# Steam Heat still making banging noises



## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Come on guys, 21 views and no responds???


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

You knew that I would be here, I thought you and Md had this worked out. It sounds like you are still ponding water somewhere in the system and the boiler fill system is doing its job. As far as mdshunk I would love to hear from him also. I have never seen such a sharp person give so much and put up with the stuff he has. I hope you can get him involved again. I think he would be proud of the member name I chose for myself.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Carrierman, I thought so too, she was running smoothly for two days after we repipe the back of the boiler. She has come back to hunt me. This has put a toll on me, it has slow down the construction in the house, but I need to get it to work. I have closed up all the walls, but cannot start installing wood floors until I get this straighten out. I do not want to ruin my new floors. This is my first home purchase, and its be a nightmare, I cannot afford to convert at this point. I hope Mdshunk gives me some ideas. I have noticed that the vent on the supply is not venting, so maybe the vent went bad with the water hammering. I am going to purchase another vent tomorrow and give it a shot. Thanks! Also forgot to mention, she never reached higher than 55 degrees. After repiping the back of the boiler, as per Mdshunk she reached 70 degrees and we had to shut her down because the house was so hot, new windows and new insulation throughout the house. I know that Mdshunk knows his stuff, I just hope he helps me out. Thanks!


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

I have a few sugestions forgive me for not knowing what you already did.Did you try a "known working vent". What is the operating pressure at?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Did the previous owner state that the boiler worked?
Is the banging sound at the boiler or at a radiator?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

trollmastergeneral said:


> I have a few sugestions forgive me for not knowing what you already did.Did you try a "known working vent". What is the operating pressure at?


Operating pressure is set to the lowest, I beleive its 0.5, the level is all the way down. I am going to change the vent on the supply line, but don't know if this will cause water hammering. Thanks for responding..


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

redline said:


> Did the previous owner state that the boiler worked?
> Is the banging sound at the boiler or at a radiator?


 
Previous owners stated boiler was working, the engineer checked it and found a gas leak on the gas control valve, so the gas was shut down by Fire Dept. The gas valve was repaired , and when we did the closing I never fired up the boiler since it was 85 degrees outside and we were getting ready for house demo, taught me a lesson tho! The boiler is not banging and runs quietly, its the radiators, once the water hammering starts, I hear it all over the house. Somehow the water is getting up to the radiators. If I drain the entire boiler out, she runs good for a day or two. Thanks for responding...


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

helpless handyman said:


> Operating pressure is set to the lowest, I beleive its 0.5, the level is all the way down. I am going to change the vent on the supply line, but don't know if this will cause water hammering. Thanks for responding..


YES this could cause hammering. how full is your sight glass.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

When its on its about 1/3, when its off its usually full to the top. Thanks again FYI all vents radiators and pipes are new. I had to change two vents so far, I think the water hammering mess them up, or these are cheap vents.


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

Is your vent near the bottom of radiators.You said this is a one pipe system? Do you have a hartford loop in the system.


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

Is there a vent on your main line as well?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

trollmastergeneral said:


> Is your vent near the bottom of radiators.You said this is a one pipe system? Do you have a hartford loop in the system.


 Yes vents are all radiators, and yes hartford loop as well at boiler.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

trollmastergeneral said:


> Is there a vent on your main line as well?


 That's the one I am replacing, it was new when the new pipes were installed. To me it seems as its gone bad with the water hammering, because when the steam is going up, I stand near the vent and she is not venting, but I don't think this could be the problem, because this vent was installed new.


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

is it a one pipe system


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Yes, it's a one pipe system.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

In the earlier post you made, we had discussed changing pressure. You should be running @ 3 lb off and 1.5 to 2 lb for on pressure. This is probably what is causing the ponding water. Do some adjusting and I will bet you fix the rest of your problem. I still haven't seen mdshunk, I hope he's ok.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Carrierman, I will definately give it a shot tonight, when I get home around 7ish. Thanks


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat Banging ***Update****

Okay guys, I need all you guys input on this, Mdshunk, Carrierman, Trollmaster, Redline, and everyone else that can help. Well after a few months of heart aches and sleepless nights, I came to the conclusion of the problem. Boiler was flooding with water, no kidding!!!. Somehow, the boiler was asking for too much water in a days run. Came to the conclusion that the Low Water Cut Off is either bad or dirty. I don't know if this can be taken apart for repair, or should a new one be installed? I need feedback from you experts, and you guys know who you are. I ran the boiler yesterday, and when the firt radiator started banging and spitting water out, I shut the valve off to the radiator. I went upstairs to the second floor and the radiator look as if a water pipe had broken off, water was just gushing out of the vent. I shut the entire boiler off, and decided to drain her out completly. I then started watching the calls for water, and the glass on the water level. She ran smoothly last night without a sound. This morning I fired her up again, and continuing watching the calls from the low water cut off, to trigger the water feed to feed, No the water feed is not sticking. I only feeded her when I thought she needed water, she ran smoothly all day as well. I am also seeing the water come back on the return as when the boiler cools off, the glass raises on the water level. 

1)My question, at what height should the water level be on the glass?
2) Should I repair all install a new low water cut off( Mc Donnell & Miller No.67.
3)Should I just replace the boiler with a new one, or run this one till she dies? 
4)The water valve that feeds the automatic water feeder with water, how much should this be open? Fully, half way, a quarter????

Thanks guys, finally getting to the end of this nightmare. Hope to see those feedbacks tonight. Thanks again:thumbsup:


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## trollmastergeneral (Dec 19, 2006)

You most likely have a leaking low water cut off .I would recomend that you not rebuild in this case .I would replace this unit.

Heck ,you came this far I would run it for a while to make sure all is good. The valve should be open all the way.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

First things first. The water level in the boiler should never show over half glass when it in shut down. When running most boiler fill switches when properly set will not allow boiler to go below 3/8 glass. This is generally optimum, although some boilers kind of have a mind of there own and operate better on the 1/4 glass running. As far as the fill control, just replace it. The last time I checked on a rebuild kit it was almost impossible to find and when I did finally find one it was almost as expensive as the whole assembly. I am glad to see you are gettting closer to the end of this project. 

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat Trouble*

Okay guys, for some reason I don't think its the auto water feed. *I think its the low water cut off.* The boiler seems to ask for too much water, (the auto feeder kicks on to often) if I let her grab water she floods and starts gushing water out of the radiators. If I shut the auto water feeder off, and constantly watch her, and only feed her when I see she needs water, the boiler works fine. Come on with suggestions before I purchase any parts.

Thanks


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat*

Why is the boiler asking for water, so many times? This is steam heat?


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

It may just be a matter of fine tuning the low water cut off. There should be a water level adjustment under the cap where the wires go in. Lower your water level to 1/4 glass running and see if that resolves the rest of the problem. If you are not able to adjust, the float capsule may have a bunch of calcium or sludge in it. You may be able to shut water off and shut system down, make sure you let it cool down before making any repairs. Seperate the upper half of the low water cutoff from the lower and see if you can clean it. If you tear the seal up, scrape it off and use a high grade silicone sealant to seal it back up. Let us know where this gets you, it sounds like you are getting close.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Carrierman, I will give it a shot. I have a McDonnell & Miller No. 67 water cut off.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat*

Okay guys, there is no adjustment on the water cut off. I started her up today, and within a period of an hour she called for water 3 times, I beleive this is alot. On two ocassions she did not need water, so I didn't feed her. I waited till she got the water back from the return. To me it seem as if the water cut off is not reading the low water level correct. If I feed her she will flood. I noticed the water level went down to about an inc from the bottom, after the boiler cut of and the water returned from the condesate, the water level reached half way on the glass. Come on guys, with your help I know we can nail this one. Thanks I am positive the water feeder is not the problem, one it looks new, and second it feeds when told too, it just comes on too many times, and I beleive this has to do with the water cut off. McDonnell & Miller No.67
Thanks again!


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

Go get your new low water cut off, post a picture of the location of the old one so we can help you make sure the new one does not need relocated up or down. We will be waiting on your reply.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat*

Hi Carrierman, the old water cut off is attached to the side of the boiler, and to the sight glass as well. So I assume the new one should be installed right there as well. I have a few questions.
1) how many times should the furnace ask for water? Once a day? Once a week? etc.
2) What is the level on the sight glass be on normal, before the boiler fires up?
3) What is the normal level the site glass should be when boiler is fired up and giving steam? 
I am new to steam heat, Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

If you scroll up to my post #22 just below the top, you will see the answers. The reason I had asked for pictures, is that if the system was messed up this bad off the start, the low water cutoff may not be in the proper position. As far as a refill, the boiler should only ask for water when it is on the bottom side of the glass, and should only allow enough to maintain its low water level and to keep the boiler from running dry. Hence the name, "low water cutoff". Let me know if this didn't help.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Carrierman, I went to the house today and started her up, and she started gushing water out of the vent on one of the radiators, the last one on the supply line. I got so pissed off, that I left and forgot to take a picture for you. I will post a picture tomorrow night. I don't even know if its the low water cut off now. Most of these guys out here know nothing about steam heat, everyone just wants to raise the pressure on the boiler, and I am not letting them do that. At the lowest pressure, the heat rises to all the radiators, so I know its not a pressure problem. The view glass was about 3/4 full when I started her up, and she was asking for water at times when she didn't need it, and I didn't feed her. I look at the glass and when I see she starts going below an inch from the bottom, I know she needs water and I open the valve from the auto feeder and let her get water. At times today the glass was half full, glass is 8inc, so the water was at 4 inches and she was asking for water. I know if I flush her the water cut off kicks in, telling the water feeder I need water. But my question is what is telling the boiler I need water, when she is half full on the sight glass? That is my question, what is telling the boiler I need water, when she doesn't? If I can figure this out with anyones help, we can narrow down this problem. I felt like sledge hammering this boiler, but then again I don't have $6000.00 to lay out right now. Please help me out. Thanks. Is it the water feeder?


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

I will wait for your pictures and see if we can determine what might be the root cause of the problem. Don't get discouraged, you have made it this far.

Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Here you Carrierman

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8638/watercutoff9by.jpg

I tried to upload, but my head is pounding today, it is 20 degrees and I can get this darn thing to work! The boiler was gushing water out of the radiator today, and the boiler wasn't even flooded. This thing has taken my sense of patience. Third boiler guy today, and he never showed up!

http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=watercutoff7ej.jpg


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi, can it be the Boiler that is no good and its pushing water around the system? 
My questions is why is the Boiler asking for so much water when she doesn't need it?
Why is the radiator gushing water out of the vent when the system is not flooded? I drained her out completly, even the water return line I drained, fed her the amount of water needed, and it still not spitting, but gushing water out. Supply pipe is pitched away from boiler towards return, and return pipe is pitched towards boiler. This has really gotten to me, its like 20 degrees and couldn't even work in the house today because I couldn't keep this thing running right!


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

I ordered the auto water feeder, I've been told that maybe the water is still flowing thru the systen when its off, I have ordered the water cut off, I thought maybe the flow chamber is screwed some how and giving false readings and telling the boiler I need water when she don't. But I am coming to realize that I don't think it's either or. The boiler is pushing water thru the pipes when she not even flooded. What a mess steam heat is!!!!


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

helpless handyman said:


> Why is the radiator gushing water out of the vent when the system is not flooded?


What do you mean that it is gushing out of the vents?

The vents on each radiator should close once steam reaches them.


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## doog (Jan 21, 2007)

This problem sounds similiar to mine. My system is a one pipe system with a dry return. With me, it wasn't my radiator banging, it was only the pipes. I made sure all my radiators were pitched properly and I installed all new Maid-O-Mist valves. The feed and return lines were banging. The feed at the end of the line (opposite the boiler) was pitched upwards (not down towards the return line), but the other end near the boiler was ok. This led to a belly in the middle that would bang. I was moving two radiators to different locations, so I had to remove about half of the feed line in my basement. When reinstalling, I pitched it properly and it does not seem to bang anymore. Problem one solved.

Problem two, is the dry return line that isn't so dry. I noticed that at some areas it is pitched away from the boiler. When the heat clicks on you can hear the water swiching in the return line and it bangs hard. There is no way for me to pitch it properly unless I remove it. Well, I'm going to have to remove it because today it sprung a pin sized hole exactly where I would hear it bang. For now, I put a Fernco rubber clamp around it. I couldn't believe how much water kept coming out. Today, I must of filled a regular household bucket. I wouldn't think that much water should be in that pipe.

Problem three just started lately and is similiar to yours. The water level is about an inch and a half from the top of the glass (slightly above the water level line) and the low water light went on, causing the auto feed to click on. I tried draining some of the water but the low water light clicks on as soon as I start draining. 

My question is the same as yours, how do you adjust the low water level switch?
I opened the box, but there is nothing to adjust.

Luckily, the level is pretty much staying where it is , so I just going to keep an eye on it.

But one time, everything was banging like crazy and water was spitting out of the radiator valve on the 2nd floor. I checked the glass gauge and ot was filled all the way. Once I drained some of the water out, it was ok. Since this seems to be your problem the water level must be too high. I don't know why the low water light comes on sometimes when the glass gauge is half full.

Sorry, for the long post, but I needed to vent a little. These old steam systems can drive you crazy.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Doog, hopefully someone will help us, or you will find out from me once I change the water feeder, and the low water cut off. All my pipes are pitched right, 2 inc supply lines pitches away from boiler, towards the return line. The return line pitches toward the boiler. *All* my radiators are pitched back to the return line, the one pipe of course.

*Redline*
Yes, I know the vents suppose to close once steam reaches, but I have one radiator down stairs that water gushes out, yes water gushes out as if it was a water line. No, its not the vents, I replaced 3 times, and this time I put $28 adjustable valves on each radiator, $170 in just vents, not including a $35.00 vent on the supply line. If I shut the radiator that gives problems downstairs, guess what it takes the water upstairs to the second floor radiator. For some reason boiler ask for too much water, and if you give it to her, you end up flooding the boiler. The boiler has to be fed at leat 4-5 times a day, if you want her to turn back on. I never new that steam heats carries water in the lines, I thought it was steam heat, not hot water heat. Also the return line gets hot as if it was a steam raditor. Waiting on *Carrierman*, to see what he thinks. *Redline*, radiators are all new, and so are all the pipes from the boiler to each radiator. With all this money spent, I could of had a nice hot water heating system, but just started taking other peoples advises, and now I am stuck. Just hope I don't walk into the house and find the main water line frozen and a pool in the house, because I still can't get heat. I must of lost 15lbs today, running between each radiator and the boiler. *Mdshunk*, where are you? *Trollmaster*, any luck or good news for me???


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## doog (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey Handyman,

I hope someone can figure this out for us. I just checked my glass gauge and it was filled to the top. I drained a little so it is now half filled. I can't figure out why it keeps over filling.



helpless handyman said:


> Hey Doog, hopefully someone will help us, or you will find out from me once I change the water feeder, and the low water cut off. All my pipes are pitched right, 2 inc supply lines pitches away from boiler, towards the return line. The return line pitches toward the boiler. *All* my radiators are pitched back to the return line, the one pipe of course.
> 
> *Redline*
> Yes, I know the vents suppose to close once steam reaches, but I have one radiator down stairs that water gushes out, yes water gushes out as if it was a water line. No, its not the vents, I replaced 3 times, and this time I put $28 adjustable valves on each radiator, $170 in just vents, not including a $35.00 vent on the supply line. If I shut the radiator that gives problems downstairs, guess what it takes the water upstairs to the second floor radiator. For some reason boiler ask for too much water, and if you give it to her, you end up flooding the boiler. The boiler has to be fed at leat 4-5 times a day, if you want her to turn back on. I never new that steam heats carries water in the lines, I thought it was steam heat, not hot water heat. Also the return line gets hot as if it was a steam raditor. Waiting on *Carrierman*, to see what he thinks. *Redline*, radiators are all new, and so are all the pipes from the boiler to each radiator. With all this money spent, I could of had a nice hot water heating system, but just started taking other peoples advises, and now I am stuck. Just hope I don't walk into the house and find the main water line frozen and a pool in the house, because I still can't get heat. I must of lost 15lbs today, running between each radiator and the boiler. *Mdshunk*, where are you? *Trollmaster*, any luck or good news for me???


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## helplessowner (Jan 22, 2007)

I would be very interested in some answers to these questions also. I just bought a home with a steam radiator system, i do not have the water fill issue. the water banging is frequent for one radiator and the heat seems to be uneven through out the house. the top floor is VERY warm and the main living area is cool.


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## doog (Jan 21, 2007)

Wow, I have the complete opposite. My bedroom (furthest from the boiler) is the coldest room in the house. 4-5 degrees colder then downstairs where the thermostat is located. You have to make sure you install the right steam vents on the radiators. I have a large size (large hole) vent on my bedroom radiator to draw quickly. The radiators in the hot rooms should have a small hole, to draw less.

I use Maid-O-Mist vents, about $7 at Home Depot.

http://kingsolar.com/catalog/mfg/maidomist/ventsizing.htm



helplessowner said:


> I would be very interested in some answers to these questions also. I just bought a home with a steam radiator system, i do not have the water fill issue. the water banging is frequent for one radiator and the heat seems to be uneven through out the house. the top floor is VERY warm and the main living area is cool.


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## helplessowner (Jan 22, 2007)

doog,


I appreciate that link, I am in the process of trying to figure out what is going on with this system. If it goes beyond this first step stuff I need a steam person to come in. I just do not want to get ripped off.

appreciate it!


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Doog and Helplessowner, you guys need to buy these vents I purchashed. 
http://www.heat-timer.com/literature/PN056082.pdf

They are Great and you can adjust them, the more you open them the more air vents out and the radiator gets hotter. Doog, not for anything, but those vents at HD are junk! I had to change them three times in a month. I know these guys are busy with the heating system, but they are the ones that really know this stuff. Carrierman, when you get a chance, how hard is it to change the low water cutt off? Thanks, hope we can get some answers....


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Doog, keep watching that boiler, if that sight glass gets full your radiators will start spitting water out, and that will be a sign that the sytem is flooding. Hope we can end this mess!!!


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Doog, I just read your post, your problem might just be your water feeder. Do you have an auto water feeder? If you do, close the water valve that feeds the water feeder, and sit there and watch the glass. If it doesn't start to over fill, you have just solved your problem, (wish mine was this easy :laughing What could be happening is that the water feeder is staying stuck on an open position and water is still flowing to the boiler, give it a shot and let me know...ASlso don't forget to reopen the valve, or manual feed the boiler water until you get a new feeder.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

Open the ball valve on the bottom of your low water cut off. Let me know if a bunch of rust and stuff comes out of it. The second thing I would like you to do, after the boiler refills with water. Shut the incoming water supply off, with the boiler running, open the valve on the bottom of the low water cut off and see if the boiler shuts down. If the boiler does not shut down, shut it down manually. Wait until the boiler has cooled completely down before turning water back on. If you do this to a overheated boiler you will shock it and cause catastrophic failure. Let me know the results, I will be back in touch with you.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat*

Hey Carrierman, nice to hear from you. I am at work now, but I have done that several times when the boiler has flooded. I open up the valve at the bottom of the low water cut off, and the water does come out dirty. As soo as the water starts coming out, the water feeder would kick on, but like I have said I have the water to the water feeder turned off. If the boiler doesn't get water, she won't start telling me the cut off is working but doesn't mean the float is good. Let me know what else to try? Thanks Carrierman
Do you want me to empty the entire boiler out, or just let some dirty water out and when it clears close the valve? I can do this when I get home tonight, but I have done this about a thousand times, almost got severly burned this weekend. Boiler was flooded again and needed to let water out, and it was steaming hot. Let me know what you want me to try in details and I will be more than happy to give it a shot. Again my thing is why is the boiler asking for so much water, when most of the time she doesn't need. I beleive a good working boiler should not ask for water 3-4 times a day. Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

It is extremly crucial that when you open the low water cut off with the water shut off to it that the boiler shuts down. If it does not, there is no doubt that either the cut off is not wired properly or the float is stuck. Please make sure to follow the instructions I put in the previous post. I don't wnat you getting hurt or blowing your boiler up.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Carrierman, if I open the valve to flush the LWCO, the water feeder kicks in, (and since I have the auto feed off) yes the boiler shuts down, if thats what you need to know. The boiler does shut off if it doesn't sense any water, or if you open the valve at the bottom of the LWCO. Let me know what else, Thanks. Can it be the boiler itself? If she has the right amount of water she runs okay, but then again she is constantly asking for water, 3-4 times a day, sometimes even more, and no there isn't any leaks on the pipes ot shut off vaves on the radiators. They are all new. Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

Now we are getting somewhere. At what point in the glass does the boiler shut down? This is crucial to determining the height that the boiler needs to run at. The other thing I need you to verify is the minimum low water level. There should be a tag on the boiler that specifies this. I need to know if the low water cut off is shutting down at this level or before. If before, I need to know in inches about how much. Keep in mind we are testing, this is not the way to operate the boiler. This will help us determine what to do next, don't give up and don't get hurt, I could not forgive myself if this happens.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Carrierman, I will get you this info tonight when I go to the house. Thanks


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay Carrierman, look all over and no place did it state water level, the only thing I saw was BTU 114,000, Steam BTU 85.500, and Water BTU/HR 99.100

Glass height is 8inches, before I started the boiler water level was 4 1/8 in height. When I let her steam for a while, and then shut the water to the water feeder and open the LWCO ball valve, she starts to ask for water the minute I open that valve. After a few seconds she shuts off, even if the water glass level is at 3 inc. As soon as I close the valve she fires back up, so it was hard to tell when she cuts off, because she basically shuts down if you keep the valve open. 

I let her run for a while, and then I shut her down because she was gussing water at the radiator on the first, last one on the supply line. I kept her off, and before I left checked the glass and it was at 5 inc full. This tells me that water is comming back to the boiler, from condensation. I know the main has to be pitched away from the boiler, towards the return, they say 1/4 on every 10 ft. Should I pitch the main more, this way maybe the water will come back to the boiler faster, and she won't ask for so much water? I noticed when she ask for water, if I don't feed her she'll shut down, condensation comes back and she fires back up. I think I have to really pitch that supply line more, but its sure not going to be easy.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay Carrierman, here we go. She shuts down at 1/2 from the bottom of the glass, but she is constantly asking for water. She ask for water at 1inc, 2inc, 4inc, this is whats driving me crazy. If I feed her water, she will flood. I was looking at the LWCO and it has the center marking line, if you know what I am talking about, it lines up straight with the glass at 1/2 inc. Let me know what else you need, I think the LWCO is not the problem, but I ordered it already and it should be here anyday. I received the water feeder today, but I beleive that is not the problem as well. I'll be waiting for your response, before I install anything. I can always sell them if I don't use themThanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

It sounds like to me that the LWCO is piped at the proper height. It sounds like the float may be flooded or the arm is bent. Never the less, change the LWCO and it sould fix your problem. You will want to set the water to come on at about 1" to 2" and shut off around 3" in the glass. Let me know if I confused you.

Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Carrierman, yes a little confused. How do I do this? The LWCO looks as if it cannot be placed higher or lower, there is a pipe that comes out of the side of the sight glass, and goes right into the LWCO. Also how does a float get flooded? Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

I was just speculating that the float is actually bad. But it could have a brass float in it. What generally happens to flood the float is over a period of years it rubs against the side of the cast housing and rubs a small hole in it. The air comes out and the water goes in. Of course when this happens you cannot control the water height. As far as placement I believe you will be ok on height. I went back and looked at the pictures a little better. I think you will be fine just replacing the low water cut off.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Carrierman, just waiting for it to arrive. Thanks for all your help. I am assuming that's why the boiler is asking for so much water? I just hope this is it!


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Are any of the newer radiators that you installed below the main loop?
The radiator that was "water logged" was this below the main loop or above it?

Did you add any additional supply or return lines to the system?
If so, how long?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Redline, No I did not add extra supply or return lines to the system. All the radiators are all brand new, (3-cast iron, and 4- steel metal heat elements) and I just replaced what I took off. Now when you say are they any radiators installed below the loop, do you mean below the Supply line? You got me thinking now, I have one that is the one on the end, the pipe that feeds this radiator is tap to the supply line but at an angle, because the beam did not let us tap to the supply line from the top. Will this be causing the water to come out of the radiator? I always thought the supply should be carrying only steam not water. I have to get this going, its going to be in the 10's tonight and I still haven't received the water cut off. Also, the radiator at the end of the supply line, the one that the pipe feeds it at an angle, if I shut that one off, the water reaches the second floor radiator, and it starts to spit and gush water out, yes gush water out.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Carrierman, I am curious on how do you set the water to come on at about 1" to 2" and shut off around 3" in the glass? There is no adjustment on the LWCO? Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

I just talked with a Mcdonnell Miller distributor. The number 67 does not have a water height adjustment. You will need to make sure that you purchase the one for the proper voltage unit. You can get just a packing assembly for this unit at about half the cost of replacing. There is a place in Minnesota that has a online catalog to order from. The tech I talked to came to the same conclusion about the LWCO, he said it appears to be bad also.

Good luck
Rusty

Good


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Carrierman, is the same conclusion to replace? Thanks, waiting for it, suppose to have been here today! Thanks for talking to the McDonnell and Miller guys, you are a Great Man....
Thanks Carrierman, I beleive you have helped many people besides just me with this post, they're 1002 views on this one!!!!! Thanks Again...


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

Sounds good, I will be waiting to see if the outcome is what you wanted.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Carrierman, got the LWCO today, but I beleive it didn't come with the blow valve. Can I use the old one? Thanks. The new one, the float looks like brass on the inside.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

As long as the old one was in good working order and you don't distroy it getting it out, you should be fine using the old one. Sometimes it is easier and quicker to get a new one.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Carrierman, where can I purchase a new one?


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

*burnham_steamer*

I have been watching #Carrierman and helpless handyman discuss 'my problem' with a 5 year old Burnhan gas steam boiler (working into a 50 year old single pipe steam system) with an auto water feed that just now seems to be over filling the boiler... when the water hits the top of the glass the boiler starts turning on/off... first time, I shut down the boiler, and emptied 2 pails of real dirty water down to the glass bottom... manually fed water to the 1/2 way (4") mark, and it came up fine... I have the water valve set 1/8 open ( I don't like to have a rush of cold water into the boiler the way installation crew set it)... it has run 5 years fine... I periodically empty the dirty water. Several times I had to empty the over fill recently, til 3 days ago, I closed the auto water feed valve.... the boiler is now maintaining level ok... and the burner is operating fine...... but now the question.... I keep seeing mention of changing the LWCO / low water cut off??? isn't that the controll that cuts off the burner, if the water level is too low?? I would imagine that the auto water feed ( an added option) has it's own sensor as to the water level... my thoughts are that the dirty gunk I drained, probably gunked the feed sensor.... but then I'm not sure just how the auto feed works, never having removed it....yet. 
Please ...... comments welcomed.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Burnham steamer, can you post me a picture of the back of the boiler piping of your boiler? This will help me out, as far as the water feeder. The LWCO does shut the boiler when the water level is too low, but at the same time it sends the signal to the water feeder, that the boiler needs water. I am new to this, but I have been working on this for a few months now. I got the water cut off today, but it didn't come with the blow down valve, I am going to purchase a new one, just like Carrierman told me to. I will definately post update once its up and running. Wait for Carrierman, Trollmaster and Mdshunk they are the pros on this stuff.
Thanks


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

*burnham_steamer*

I'm embarrassed... a closer look at the wiring shows the auto water feed getting its signal to go from the lwco.... as you said... per suggestion, I drained the water until the lwco light lit.... 1.5" of water in the glass, then I manually fed water, and at 3" the lwco light went out... so I added another inch to 4"... and turned off the water feed. It's too cold to to mess with the heating plant, since the boiler is working fine and the auto feed is an option... I'll leave it off til warmer weather. I think the 1.5" swing is too tight, since when the steam is up.... I see the glass drop 2" - 3" - 4" depentant upon the outside temp, and the length of run. The auto feed still should not over fill the boiler..... I wonder if it has something to do with how long the boiler runs??? when away, I have the temp set at 62 (used to be 64).... the high temp is 68... used to be 67.... so the boiler is now running longer to get to temp, and perhaps lowering the water in the glass even lower? calling for to much water..... I'll wait to see if your new auto feed? or is it a new LWCO? works.


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

*helpless handyman*

This is a re-write from above note.... I'm still getting used to the format....

Checked again and you are right... LWCO does signal the Auto Feed... I did check the LWCO and at low the glass shows water at 1.5"... I manually fed water and 3" satisfied the LWCO. I fed water to 4", and will leave the auto feed off until we see how your replacement works. I don't trust the auto feed, and it's too cold outside to mess with the heating plant since it is running ok without thethe auto feed.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Burnham Steamer, when you get a chance, can you please post me a picture of the back of your boiler piping? I want to compare it with mine, since we both have a Burnhan Boiler. Also a picture of the piping on the water hook up would also be Great. Thanks


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Guys 

I'm back, helplesshandyman did you get your relief valve. I just wanted to let you know I am getting ready to start a new carrer, this process has been taking up alot of my time along with fullfilling my duties to my old employer before I leave. Just hang in ther if I don't answer you right away. I am interested in making sure you are up and running. And burnham steamer, I will read yours to see if I can give you some insight.

Good luck
Rusty


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay Carrierman, here's the latest. I got a guy that came in today, a steam guy. He said that the hartford loop on the back of the boiler was too high. We had done it at 26 5/8 inc high, since that's what the Burhan specs for the boiler stated. He says that it should be at 24 inc high, half of the glass view height. Does this make sense? It kind of made sense to me. *Now Burham Steamer, *can you please measure your hartford loop, and give me a height, since you have the same boiler I have? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks guys.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

If your pipe did not have enough drop on it to return water, this could be why he suggested this. I would say if you can get his attention, rattle mdshunks cage and see what his take is on this. He will shoot strait with you.

Good luck
Rusty


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

****handyman*

I may not be able to get back to you til late tonight or tomorrow with the photos and measurements.... working late Note.... my burner did run fine til a week ago.... the auto feed was not a problem.... the LWCO seems to be ok, and light indicator goes on - off appropriately...as I said I am now running with the auto feed off until we get another warm spell... where should I measure from.... ground to top of pipe / center / bottom?


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

*helpless handyman*

P S
Got a PC? take a look at 
www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/2001 hartford.asp
nice write-up with diagram describing Hartford Loops

AND... www.heatinghelp.com/steam_waterhammerinthesystem.cfm 

And... www.hvacwebtech.com/steamboilers.htm

I stumbled on these pages and they make an interesting read.....


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Burnham steamer, if you could measure from the concrete where the boiler sits on, to the height of the hartford loop. Look at the view glass in the front of the boiler, 4inc should be half of the glass, the loop going back into the water return should be that height, thats what I was told. So for instance, my view glass half full (4inc), height from floor to 4 inc on sight glass is 24inc high. So they are telling me the hartford loop should be at that height. Mine is a little higher, and they are stating this is causing the flooding. Thanks so much.


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## burnham_steamer (Jan 26, 2007)

*helpless handyman*

I tried to attach pictures but this forum not accepting... the glass measures 22" to 32" at the in/output fitting and 26" at the 1/2 way mark. the loop is 22 1/2 " off the ground ( below the half fill mark on the glass... I hand some goog pix's but I guess the .jpg files are too large.... look at those web sites I gave you, particularly masterplumbers.com .. Interesting


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Burnham steamer, *Thanks. How much below the half fill mark on the glass is the loop? I am trying to lower mine, and beleive this could be the problem why she is flooding.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Are the pipes insulated?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

If you were to turn off half of the radiators and try to run the system will it still flood?

Turn half of the radiators off that are the farther away from the boiler.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Redline, I beleive its got to do with back of the boiler piping. I did it to burnham specs and its too high. I beleive the hartford loop should be at the water level height, 4inc. If I shut radiators off, it doesn't make a difference, it just takes the water upstairs to the second floor radiators. She ask for water, if you don't add water she shuts down and doesn't heat, if you give it water when the condesate comes back, you have to drain her or else she floods. Hope this helps. Thanks


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

I was not sure if the new piping that you added made the system too large for the tank.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat*

Hey Redline, I doubt it. We only replaced what we took out with the same pipe sizing, we also didn't add extra lines. I beginning to realize its the piping on the back of the boiler just Mdshunk had stated before.


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## doog (Jan 21, 2007)

Can anyone explain the reason for water hammer in a dry return line?

My water level has been remaining at the proper level in the gauge. The return line always hammers hard at the beginning of the firing cycle and then it stops after a minute. I can actually pin point the exact area where it's coming from. You can also hear water swiching in the return line. My radiator valves do not spit any water, but I do hear some condensation noise in them. I did notice that the return line is actually pitched the wrong way for a one foot section that comes off the end of the main. Then this leads to a 90 which then turns into a straight 25' run to the boiler. This 25' run is level at some points and barely pitched. Do you think if I change the return pipes with more of a pitch that it will cure my hammering in them?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Yes Doog, pitch that return line towards the boiler. She shouldn't be level at any point, water will just sit there and that will definately cause hammering. I have been working on my boiler for the last few months, and boy am I really learning the steam heat system the hard way, working on it myself. Supply line has to pitch away from the boiler, and return towards the boiler.


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## doog (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Helpless. I just don't understand why the return is banging. That means that the steam is flowing in the return line as well as the main. I would think the return should only have the condensation and no steam traveling in it.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

http://www.steamforum.com/index.asp


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi Doog, there isn't probably steam in the return, but since the return is not pitched towards the boiler, the water return (condensation) is probably back up near your supply and thats why your getting banging. Pitch that pipe towards the boiler and you should be fine.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Steam Heat Update*

Thanks to *Burhman Steamer, *my boiler is now working fine* . *He send me some photos of his back of boiler piping, and wham that did it! Thanks Burhman Steamer!!!!!!


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

What did you have to change?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

The Hartford loop!


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi helplesshandyman

I am hoping by this last post that all of your problems are solved. It has been good experience for all of us I believe on this one. I am glad you hung in there and got the system going, I know you had a major expense in it. Any way just wanted to say congrats. I am getting ready to head off to my new job this weekend and I will try and stay in touch with you guys while I am in school.

Good luck
Rusty


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## Mikeejay (Feb 8, 2007)

Helpless handyman,

I just read all of the posts on this thread and I had to join just to add my two cents. Wow, you've been through it haven't you? I'm curious about a couple of things though.

You said that burnham steamer sent you the picture of his hartford loop and he noted in a post his loop's height up from the floor. Your height was too high and you had a steam guy come over and tell you that. But was the loop also piped wrong or was it just the height issue? The reason I ask is because you said that the pictures from burnham steamer was what helped you figure it out.

Also curious if you ending up using that new LWCO or is it (hopefully) still in the box?

Glad you got it solved. Not many homeowners or diy'ers would have gone as far as you without having the professional just fix it. 

Mike


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

helpless handyman said:


> The Hartford loop!



How could this unit have been operating before you bought the house?

I would conclude that it has been in the house for many years.:confused1:


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Redline, if you read this entire post, you will see that everything was changed, pipes, radiators. The heat contractor that I got to do the piping reassembled everything. I never saw the hartford loop on the back of the boiler before it was removed, I am not a plumber or a heating guy, I assumed he knew what the heck he was doing, he's been in the business for ten years, don't ask me how? As for the hartford loop, the entire thing was wrong! Thanks


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

My mistake. I was under the impression that you just added radiators (elements) and that is when the problem came about.

I was not aware that you severely altered the entire piping system.
I thought that the only problem you had was that you had to change the gas valve. 

Glad that you have it operating.:thumbup:


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## steamed-up (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi, helpless_handyman, can you explain exactly what you did to clear up all your boiler/radiator problems. My new boiler is acting up the way yours was before you fixed yours. Details and pictures if possible. Thanks.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Did you send him a message to get his attention?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi Steamed-up, what is your glass view level at?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Is the steam system working better?:thumbsup:


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## LAAJ (Mar 18, 2007)

*One pipe steam speed*

Just a small thought. If you have a relatively new steam boiler, there is a great chance that it delivers heat MUCH faster than the time it takes to return to the boiler. This means that if you have an automatic feeder, it will incorrectly determine that you have "low water" when in fact your boiler is awaiting the return flow. This is documented in some of the bolier litererature (e.g.,McLean & a reservoir pipe.) If this is the case, wait till the boiler shuts off and the condensed water returns, make sure the water level is near the top of the glass (no higher as the boiling may make your pipes "bang" right at the connection to the boiler.) Shut off the water feed to the autofeeder. The low water shut off will still work. Once the heating season ends, drain off the additional water down to the "normal" mark on the boiler. Remember to add it back at the start of the following heating season. (I had this problem with my own new boiler last year.)


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Is the steam working better?


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