# Before i tile



## Chagres (Oct 13, 2007)

1. Either of those spacings will work fine. Personal preference.
2. Yes, always use a high-quality grout sealer, especially in a humid or wet environment. Two coats.
3. No shower, no way. You don't want any moisture to penetrate.
4. Couldn't say... don't know.

Chagres
ICanFixUpMyHome


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi all,

1. I agree it's personal preference, but 1/8" joint requires a high quality tile, and you said HD.  Check tiles from each box with others for size and squareness. Use sanded grout for either size joints. Even if a little under 1/8" I think sanded looks better and is easier to work with too. 

2-3. Grout should be sealed after initial cure and final cleanup. Usually 2-3 days. Since you're only tiling he floor, you can use the shower that evening if necessary. 

4. VersaBond is fine under Ditra. PremiumPlus is ok too. I would use DitraSet over Ditra instead but it may be hard for you to find? I also always use white to set tiles. I would also use a 1/4x3/8x1/4 to install the tiles. You need a 5/16" V for Ditra though. 

Jaz


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## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

Versabond is a modified thinset. I thought we'd agreed Ditra needs unmodified thinset. Where is Angus when you need him?


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

SimonB:

What grout sealer were you intending to use?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hey HD,

Angus I think is in Illinois? 

It's a PLYWOOD subfloor. Where did you read that silliness? 

Jaz


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## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

I thought that was what someone told me once. Then I tought Angus confirmed it. Upon further reading, he didn't. Ignore me, I don't know much about Ditra.


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## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

Or maybe I do:










*Thin-set Facts*









*Discussion of thin-set mortars and Schluter-DITRA installations*

*Question: Can ceramic tile, including porcelain tile, be set on Schluter-DITRA with unmodified thin-set mortar?*

*Answer: YES. In fact, we recommend it. Here's why:*

Portland cement-based unmodified thin-set mortars are dependent on the presence of moisture for hydration in order to gain strength. Since Schluter-DITRA is impervious, it does not deprive the mortar of its moisture. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in a strong, dense bond coat. In fact, after the mortar has reached final set (usually within 24 hours), unmodified thin-set mortars achieve higher strengths when cured in continually moist conditions.

*Question: Can ceramic tile, including porcelain tile, be set on Schluter-DITRA with latex-modified thin-set mortar?*


*Answer: We DON'T recommend it. Here's why:*

Latex-modified mortars must air dry for the polymers to coalesce and form a hard film in order to gain strength. When sandwiched between two impervious materials such as Schluter-DITRA and ceramic tile, including porcelain tile, drying takes place very slowly through the open joints in the tile covering. [According to the TCA Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation, this drying period can fluctuate from 14 days to over 60 days, depending on the geographic location, the climatic conditions, and whether the installation is interior or exterior]. Therefore, extended cure times would be required before grouting if using modified thin-set mortars between DITRA and ceramic tile, including porcelain tile. If extended cure times were not observed, the results could be unpredictable. This is even more important to consider in exterior applications that are exposed to rain as there is the additional concern of latex leaching.

Additional Notes 15 years of field experience and testing by the Tile Council of North America (TCNA) support the efficacy of using unmodified thin-set mortars to bond ceramic tile, including porcelain tile, to Schluter-DITRA in both interior and exterior applications. See relevant testing data for more details. 

Remember, the type of mortar used to apply Schluter-DITRA depends on the type of substrate. The mortar must bond to the substrate and mechanically anchor the fleece on the underside of the DITRA. For example, bonding DITRA to wood requires latex-modified thin-set mortar. Additionally, all mortars (modified and unmodified) have an acceptable temperature range that must be observed during application and curing.


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## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

See Except for wood, it should be unmodified. So I had heard somewhere about the unmodified.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Ditra over cement = NON modified (I use kerabond wanting to try ditraset)
Ditra over wood = modified (kerabond + keralastic or Ultraflex II)
NON modified ALWAYS over Ditra (kerabond)

And yes, I am found in Illinois :yes:


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

I totally agree with Jaz about his recommendations.

I use 3/16" spacers for ceramic but 1/8" for stone.

For grout, maybe try something like Mapei Opticolor. It doesn't need to be sealed and will work for ceramic installations with joints up to 3/8". It has built in antimicrobial protection too.

Good luck


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## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks for all the answers.


I think that I will go 3/16 spacing for the tiles, they are from Rona at 1.79 each, so im sure its not a high quality tile. As for the sealer i was just going to use some that i can find at homedepot. Ill look around at other hardware stores to see if they cary Mapei grout that includes the sealer and antimicrobial protection. If i cant find any, does any sealer do the job?

I also did the mistake of looking at the thinset bag for trowel info, i should of looked at the ditra instructions. I will get a 1/4 x 3/8 square notched for my tiles to ditra and a 5/16 x 5/16 V for ditra to floor.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hey HD, are you trying to confuse the rest of us too?:laughing: 

HD stores get plenty of well deserved criticism concerning their associates giving bad advice instead of saying they "don't know". If I were your boss, I would demand you change your nic. 

Concerning your post #35, you are seeing all those problems because you are hanging with too many hacks....you know, some of the ones that do work for HD.

Jaz


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

To find Opticolor:
http://www.mapei.us/DistributorLocator.htm

For sealer:
http://www2.dupont.com/Stone_Tech_Professional/en_US/products/Protect/grout_sealer.html


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## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Ok well i found a store where i can get the Mapei grout and sealer, so i got that problem solved.

I found a product similar to ditra called superseal. Is this product the same?

Also the only v notched trowel i can find is a 3/16 for the underlayment, ditra or superseal. Does it matter if its not the exact size?


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

I'm not familiar with Superseal. Is it that much cheaper than Ditra? Why would you go with that product? Are you being a guinea pig for it?
You need to read and follow the manufacturers installation requirements for whatever product you chose. If Superseal is a crack isolation membrane, then it is _similar _to Ditra.

If you buy Opticolor, you don't need a sealer.


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## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

angus242 said:


> I'm not familiar with Superseal. Is it that much cheaper than Ditra? Why would you go with that product? Are you being a guinea pig for it?
> You need to read and follow the manufacturers installation requirements for whatever product you chose. If Superseal is a crack isolation membrane, then it is _similar _to Ditra.
> 
> If you buy Opticolor, you don't need a sealer.


Ive seen it being used a couple times on the new episodes of Holmes on Homes. The cost is almost half and looks prety much the same cept its yellow.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

simonb said:


> Ive seen it being used a couple times on the new episodes of Holmes on Homes.


WHAT???? Holmes NOT using Ditra? I think it's a cold day in.....you know where.

Holmes on Homes is no longer aired in the US due to Discovery Home channel being changed to the Green channel.

You can use whatever you'd like. Just make sure you READ AND FOLLOW the installation instructions!

Good luck


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You better stay with mainstream products and industry recommendations for trowels.

Don't be using Joe's Underlayment because it's cheaper and don't use the wrong trowel because you think "it doesn't matter".

And don't bet the farm based on what that hack Holmes does in those episodes.


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## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks guys. By all means i dont think they are all the same and using the wrong one will make a difference im sure. Every hardware store i go into here have a different type of product. HD has Ditra, Home hardware has this red stuff, didnt take the name down, and Rona has the superseal. Im sure they all do the same or they wouldnt be carying the stuff. Ive read the specs on all 3 and they all do the same.


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## pufferfish (Jan 19, 2009)

Hi simonb, how did your tiling project go? I'm very curious to hear about SUPERSEAL underlayment performance...
At the moment I'm contemplating between these 3 methods of laying floor porcelan tiles: "scratch coat" (metal lath covered with mortar), DITRA, and SUPERSEAL. Read lots of posts about DITRA on johnbridge forum. Everybody swears by it, saying "scratch coat" failed many times, without providing any facts. In our area (Toronto & GTA) most of the builders (all?) use "scratch coat", same with tile setters - none of them mentioned DITRA...


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## R&D Tile (Feb 6, 2006)

Don't even think about doing a scratch coat.:no:


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## pufferfish (Jan 19, 2009)

Please elaborate. I'm not looking for an answer - "do this" or "do that". I'm trying to find out WHY.

There are 2 things that stop me from going with underlayment:
1) Higher price (though SUPERSEAL is cheaper than DITRA, so this may not be a big problem)
2) Lack of tile setters experienced with underlayment. Sure if I ask someone "Can you use DITRA?" the answer will be yes. But chances are, this person almost never used DITRA, so the result may be worst than with "scratch coat". So far none of the tile setters, who gave me quote, has recommended using DITRA.

Also, I think, if "scratch coat" method had a high failure rate, builders would not be using it. Mainly because of the warranty cost.

I know someone who used DITRA in bathroom DIY project and now the floor sqweaks. This reinforces my thinking that one should be experienced with DITRA.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

The scratchcoat method has been tested repeatedly within the U.S. structure of authoritarian organizations and has failed every attempt. This is common knowledge in this country. The reason installers persist in using the method is obvious - it's cheap.

Most builders (and installers as well) offer only a one year warranty and the method will generally survive that period. Installers using that method aren't very likely to be called back after their work has failed. Name one installer that is willing to talk about his failed installations, just name one.


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## pufferfish (Jan 19, 2009)

Is it possible to post links to those organizations, their test results and perhaps conditions under which test were conducted?

I would guess that under certain conditions (i.e. sturdy subfloor, joists, no or very little structural movement) both ditra and scratch coat will stand up well without any problems. Maybe builders use scratch coat because they know that subfloor is good enough for this method?

Also, I'm talking about relatively new houses (6-8 years old). In my case deflection allowed installation of natural stone (don't remember exact number), but I will be doing porcelain tiles.

For you guys who strongly recommend using ditra, imagine yorself in a situation where everybody around you uses scratch coat and you never heard of ditra. Now you go online and hear: "ditra is the best", "never use anything else" etc. Back to your environment - people use scratch coat, you don't hear about problem associated with it, and installers with best rating (on homestars.com) tell you that they use scratch coat. Would not you question the necessity of using ditra? Would you risk asking an installer, who only experienced with scratch coat, to use ditra? Would you also pay $2.5 per sq.f. for this novelty product?

Thanks for reading this


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

pufferfish said:


> Would you also pay $2.5 per sq.f. for this *novelty* product?


Ditra has been in use since the 80's. I challenge you to find one instance of a properly installed Ditra failure. 
And there's no way Ditra, even installed incorrectly, can make a subfloor squeak. :no:


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## pufferfish (Jan 19, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Ditra has been in use since the 80's.


When I said "novelty product", I meant it's very rarely used in my area.



angus242 said:


> I challenge you to find one instance of a properly installed Ditra failure.


I won't be able to do it because I don't work in this industry. I'm a curious consumer willing to go extra step to insure that work is done properly.



angus242 said:


> And there's no way Ditra, even installed incorrectly, can make a subfloor squeak. :no:


 Good to hear this. Usually nail that missed a joist but still touches it will cause squeaks. Though in this case plywood was screwed down, no nails.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Is it possible to post links to those organizations,


No, it is not possible. For a curious homeowner you are sure consuming a lot of everyone's time. No reason to argue with you any longer. If you so desire you can spend your time contacting the following organizations so as to put the goofy scratchcoat idea to rest.

NTCA
CTEF
NTCA
MIA


Ther ya go, they will all tell you the same thing we have been telling you.


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