# Need more neutral bus bar in panel.



## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

I have a TBB10 panel, it has two neutral bus bar. I need at least 4 more, can I pig tail a neutral inside the panel? If so how many are allowed? Thanks guys.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

By pigtail, do you mean attach another neutral bar and run a correctly sized neutral wire from the existing neutral bar to the new one? I'm not sure if you can do that or not to be honest.

If you're asking if you can tie two neutrals together in the panel and pigtail from that connection to a single lug on the neutral bar (one wire serving two neutrals)...No you can't.

Assuming we're dealing with a main panel/main point of service and not a sub-panel, you can get another ground bar, attach it to the panel jacket, and put all or some of the grounds on that bar...Thereby freeing up some space on the neutral bar to individually land your neutrals.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

If it's the main panel can you double up some of your grounds?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay, no room in panel for another neutral bus bar, they are two already. Okay, so No pig tailing inside panel, got that. So it's okay to attach two neutrals to one screw on the panel?


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

helpless handyman said:


> Okay, no room in panel for another neutral bus bar, they are two already. Okay, so No pig tailing inside panel, got that. So it's okay to attach two neutrals to one screw on the panel?


No. Only one nuetral per screw. Do you have a ground bar installed?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay, maybe I am not explaining this right, I have a TBB10 main panel, it has room for 20 breakers. They are two neutral bars on panel, one on each side. When I mean neutral bar, I am refering to where the white wires gets screwed on too. The wires in the panel are 12/2 and 12/3 armored cable with no ground. If I am not mistaking the armored cable is the ground. Hope this helps. Thanks

** The neutral bars are isolated from the panel with these black plastic feet, then there is a ground wire on there that grounds to the panel. Then there is a green ground wire from the panel to the water meter, hope this helps. I know that the white is the ground for all the lines.


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## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

helpless handyman said:


> I know that the white is the ground for all the lines.


With a comment like that i would recommend you do not do any work inside your main panel. Hire an electrican who knows exactly what is going on.
Sorry to be so frank, but electricity is nothing to guess with.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks, but I just wired my entire house. It was looked over by an electrician friend of mine and its up to code. He is out of town now, and that's why I am asking for help.

Darren, you didn't have to chew me up this way. Believe me, if I didn't know how dangerous a panel is, I wouldn't be all in it. I am aware that one can get killed if precaution is not taken seriously. Thanks for your help anyway. Inside the panel, the neutral bar ends up being the ground. What I mean by this is that the white wires are srewed into the neutral bar, then a ground wire is attached to this neutral bar, and that same ground wire is grounded to the panel. Then a ground wires goes from the panel to the water pipe, thats how its been.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

helpless handyman said:


> Thanks, but I just wired my entire house. It was looked over by an electrician friend of mine and its up to code. He is out of town now, and that's why I am asking for help.


How many circuits are in the panel?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

They are 20 circuits, all 20 amp, then there is a double 20 amp that is for washer and dryer, (dryer is gas not electric). I had to add 3 tanden breakers, and that is why I am short on the neutrals now. The neutral bar holds 10 on each side of the panel. Thanks so much.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You have a 20 circuit panel and it appears you have installed all the neutrals and grounded legs that the panel will accept. So really isn't much you can do that would be code compliant. Thomas betts is a pretty rare load center around my parts.

This is a DIY site so I'm not sure why some are so concerned if someone is misspoken on occassion. You seem to be knowledgeable enough for what your doing. I just don't have any answers for you. The panel is designed for 20 grounded legs and you have more than that.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks so much Stubbie:thumbsup: What would you suggest or recommend? Should I get the panel upgraded? If so what panel would you recommend? Should I install a subpanel? This is the time to do it, since the basement walls are open. I only really need space for three more white neutrals, everything else is wired new, and will have no future add ons. The reason I ran out was this house was wired so badly, maybe in the 1960's. I rewired everything, window a/c on there own circuits, bathroom upstairs has 2 circuits, GFCI and another GFCI for whirlpool tub. Kitchen has 3 circuits, GFCI, Overhood microwave, Refrigerator. I added enough outlets so that extension cords will not exist in my house, lol. I looked at the panel again and if I were to add another neutral bus bar, it would be very cramped inside the panel. I want to keep breathing room inside the panel. Thanks so much for time and suggestions. All comments are welcomed, also do you know by any chance how many tanden breakers are allowed in the panel? Thanks again.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

A new panel wouldn't cost all that much at all. You can get a 42 slot Square D Homeline, for example, and plenty of breakers for probably less than $200.

Don't be too mad at Darren for jumping on you. He's looking out for you. You said that your white wires...Neutrals...Are grounds. Hopefully that was a typo, but like I said, after reading that he's justifiably looking out for you.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Helpless

Well a new panel is fine but it can pose some problems with getting your wiring to connect properly, Meaning some 42 circuit panels will make it difficult for your wiring to reach all the termination points in a lot of cases. So I don't have a problem with a new panel but chose selectively one that will best fit your situation. You can pigtail your wiring in a new panel if necessary to get everything to connect correctly.

I'm thinking a sub-panel will be just fine for what your doing. Just make room for a double pole breaker and move any circuits that will reach the sub-panel over to it plus your new additional branch circuits. I'd get a sub panel that has like 6 spaces and 12 circuits (12 if you install tandems in all spaces) and it only needs to be a main lug panel. You will need to will need to run 4 wires over to it H-H-N-grd or if you use metal conduit and individual wires and not cables the conduit can serve as your ground. So three wires and metal conduit in that case. I'd put the sub on a 60 amp breaker so use #6 copper and metal conduit or if you use a cable it will have the ground sized properly. If you use pvc conduit then #6 copper with a #10 green ground. 

The installation will look like this....click the drawing to enlarge.....


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You asked about how many tandems a panel will accept and that usually depends. Many panels will accept them in any location and some only accept them is certain areas of the panels. For instance a panel will say 30/30 which is 30 spaces 30 single pole circuits no tandems or it might say 12/24 which is 12 full sizespaces and 24 circuits if you use tandem single poles in all spaces. Some panels will have variations from that where lets say only 12 spaces in the panel will allow connection to tandem breakers and the rest of the spaces must use full size breakers. the cover sheet on the door of the panel, if you can still read it, should give you this information.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Stubbie, Thanks so much for all your time and effort you have put into this post, it couldn't have been any better. I want to Thank all of you guys that took time to answer this post as well. Darren, thanks for your advise as well, no hard feelings here. I know you only meant well for my safety. Like I mention before, I am aware how dangerous working in a panel can be! I will be leaning towards a subpanel, this way I can get rid of the tanden breakers. I am going to install the panels flush with the wall, so I will be doing the 4 wire install. I will need to use flexible metal conduit from main panel to subpanel. What size of flexible metal conduit would be appropriate to run the four # 6 wires? Also, is flexible metal conduit allowed? Thanks guys:thumbsup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Helpless 

FMC is fine as long as you install a ground wire in it and don't use the FMC for ground. You need 3/4 or 1 inch. Three #6 copper THHN (the neutral must be white) and a #10 copper green ground.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Stubbie, Thanks again. Can I get a recommendation on a sub panel? Maybe with more circuits? I know you mention a 6 space, 12 circuits with tandens. Don't we want to stay away from the tandens? Or are they allowed on a sub? Thanks for all your help.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The tandems are perfectly fine in panels that allow them. You cannot exceed the branch circuits allowed by the panel by using them. You can if you prefer to use full size buy a panel that uses them and does not allow tandems. I like cutler hammer (CH) not (BR). I like panels with copper busses not aluminum but really any are fine. I also like Square d but I'm not crazy about the neutral bar configuration. I also like split neutral panels that have two neutral bars. Sometimes one can be unbonded from the one the neutral of the feeder connects to and it can serve as the ground bar by bonding only it to the metal of the panel. Otherwise you just buy a ground bar kit. If you want the model number of a few square d's or cutler hammers I can supply them for you. How many circuits are you wanting?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

That would be Great. Is there anywhere I can get specs on my panel, TBB10. I google with no luck, I know you electricians got the good connections:wallbash:

This is the only thing I came up with:
*ITEM NUM: *ES78621012079 
*DESCRIPTION: *Thomas & Betts TBB10(16-24)C - 1 Each 
*MANUFACTURER: *Thomas & Betts 
*MANUFACTURER ITEM ID: *TBB10(16-24)C 
*FEATURES: *
Main Breaker Loadcenter Electrical Power Panel
14 in. Wd X 3-7/8 in. Dp, 120/240Vac 1Ph, 100A, 3-Wire, NEMA 1, 16 Type Tb & 16 Type A 1-Pole Spaces, 8 Type Tb & 6 Type A 2-Pole Spaces, Indoor, 10Kaic, 6-1/0 Awg Alum/Copper Lugs
Priced Per Panel 
*SPECIFICATIONS: *14' Wd X 3-7/8' Dp, 120/240Vac 1Ph, 100A, 3-Wire, NEMA 1, 16 Type Tb & 16 Type A 1-Pole Spaces, 8 Type Tb & 6 Type A 2-Pole Spaces, Indoor, 10Kaic, 6-1/0 Awg Alum/Copper Lugs;


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm unable to help you on a thomas betts panel. However tandems are ctl meaning that they will not connect to a buss stab that isn't designed for them. If you using tandems and they have not been tampered with to defeat the ctl feature and if those tandems are listed for that panel then likely they will fit on any buss stab from your description. Generally tandems fit on stabs that are notched like below......or have little tabs on the side like Ge panel busses.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Just saw your specifications. Your panel has 16 full sized spaces and 24 circuits if you use tandems. This 16/24 also means not all the spaces will accept tandems otherwise it would be 16/32. Its a 100 amp panel with copper busses.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Stubbie, the tandens I installed were Murray's and no alterations were done to them. They just fitted in with no problem. Thanks


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok that is good. It could be that all the spaces will take tandems. Did you notice anything different about the buss stabs? Like notches or not.... some did some didn't??


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

No stubbie:thumbsup: So, that means if they fit they can be used? How can I tell on the panel if tandens are allowed?

I will look at the cover tonight when I get home and read it again. But I didn't see anything there on tandens. Thanks Stubbie!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok I finally was able to get hold of my electrical supply and they referred me this literature
*

TYPE TB*

Suitable replacements for Challenger “C” Series, Homeline, Murray, Siemens, Thomas & Betts, and Westinghouse/Bryant



So it looks reasonable that a murray will fit a tb breaker panel but I'm not finding anything out about that breaker panel and whether it will accept tandems.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi Stubbie, this is what I was able to read from the panel label. TBB10 (20-20)C, 125 Amp Max Type-1

Thomas & Betts Circuit Breakers Type A, TB, TBH,TBBD,TBBQ, TBWH,TBSN, GFB, Theses two were a little bad to read, CFSH, CFB could be something close to that. Thanks, Let me know if any are tandens?

I got a quote on a Square D QO series 100 amp panel, 30 space, 30 1 pole breakers, $220.00. Let me know if this is a good or crapy panel? Thanks for all your help.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Well you know what breakers fit that panel now....:thumbsup:

The square d QO is among the best panels out there. You won't go wrong with it.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Okay, I am in need of some advise. I am max out on breakers, and I am using 4 tandens as of now. Will need to install one more tanden to complete the entire new wiring that was done in my house. Should I upgrade to a panel with more breakers? Or should I add the other tanden and call it a day? Thanks guys:thumbsup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Helpless

Ok I finally got my fill of trying to figure this panel out but persistance paid off and one of my co-workers on a side job yesterday gave me a source for tb breakers.
A thomas and betts tandem or piggy back breaker is a TBBR...example TBBR1515 or TBBR2020.

Now if you notice there is no TBBR listed on your panel cover sheet. And it says 20-20 which tells me it has 20 spaces and 20 circuits. This would indicate that it will not take tandem breakers or at least you are not supposed to use them. I personally am not a fan of using them but at the same time it is fine....if the panel is designed to accept them.
In your case I just think it is a bad idea. My advice is to spend the dollars and get a new panel and lets both stop chasing our tails trying to make this panel work out.... 

Take a look at this site and you can match up the breakers with what your cover sheet shows. None of them are tandems.

http://www.aplussupply.com/break/tb/tbbreak.htm

So again my advice is get that QO panel or another new panel


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks Stubbie, you just confirmed my decision. I was at the other end with the supplier get pricing. I have decided to go with the new panel. It will hold 30 full size breaker, or 20 full size and 10 tanden in the last 5 rows on each side, giving me a total of either 30 circuits (1-pole), or 40 circuits(20-1 pole and 10 tandens?. I will feel at peace knowing that if I do have to ever install a tanden, the panel will accept it. I should be fine with the 30 1 poles anyways. I don't like the idea that either tho the panel accepts the tanden, its really not meant to be used. I don't want problems down the line, and to be honest I don't really like the tanden breakers. If the space was made for one breaker, lets keep it real and not alter the manufacturers specifications. I really appreciate all the precious time you have taken to help me solve this issue, could have never done it without your expertise. Thanks Stubbie, send me the bill!:laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Helpless

Sometime we just try to get too darn resourceful. Me too sometimes. This being a DIY forum I understand people have budgets. so I do my best to accomodate those needs. In your case I just think we expended our options to where we we starting to guess if that panel would take tandems. It is apparent to me that it does not have specifications to install them and there are safety reasons the manufacturer does this. So that was the turning point for me. 
But we sure tried to make that panel work didn't we....

You have made the correct decision so be glad we got this resolved and didn't guess if that TB panel would be ok with tandems.

Have a good day


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Glad you figured it out. The reason your tandems fit no problem is because, most likely, the side of the tandem breaker is a sticker or printing that reads "NON-CTL USE ONLY." Those breakers were meant to fit into any panel built before the tandem rejection features were mandated. And they're meant to replace tandems fitted into panels before U.L. came out with stricter standards.

The first clue for anybody should have been the limited number of neutrals that could fit on the neutral bus bars.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi Lawnguylandsparky,

So in other words, you are saying that *panels that are made to accept taden breakers bring excess neutral bus bars? *I have openned up a few panels here at work, Commercial building where only union electricians are allowed to work in buildings and you should see the inside of these panels. When a circuit is needed, they will just add the circuit and if there is no room in the neutral bus bar, guess what happens, piggy tails inside the panel. This is not just one company we deal with, but several. My concern is my family and don't want something to slap me in the face down in the future. Stubbie worked Great with me trying to figure out this whole thing, and I really appreciate his precious time he took. I was just curious to see if this panel was rated for tandens, since it had a few already. Thanks to all:thumbsup:


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

Helpless- For today's standards, I think LawnGuy was saying there should be one neutral space for every circuit allowed in that particular panel. (Also one ground space as well). This would prevent any need to double up, pigtail etc. 

My home panel has a few doubled grounds which I think was acceptable for the time (1971), but today 1:1 is apparently the norm and code for either neutrals or grounds.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

The panel will indicate if, and what size, 2 grounds can be used in one groung or neutral bar space. The NEC will not allow more than one neutral uner a neutral bar screw.

As for the tandem issue... It IS possible (though not legal) to install 40 tandem breakers into a 40-slot panel and get 80 circuits. For this reason the tandem rejection feature was required many years ago, however for those panels built before the requirement, they still manufacture these non-ctl use tandems to fit those panels. When used in newer panels they are a cheater. It is very common to see this, especially in residential panels. I'm not advocating their misuse, but just pointing out what is. 

Imagine a homeowner getting an electrician to run an a/c circuit for 350.00, only to find out the panel is full and a subpanel or a new, larger panel is also necessary.


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks, problem solved:thumbsup:


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