# HELP! new roof leaking



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Caulking a valley is never a sustainable or normal requirement when it comes to shingles. Sounds to me as if it was never done properly and I would request that they come back and re do it.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Can you take some pictures?
How many valleys are there? how long are they? 
It seems to me the term "California valley" can mean a couple different things to different people.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I can't seem to figure out how to add pics. Theres two 24 ft long valleys.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Upload pics to a photo hosting site like Photobucket or Tinypic and then use the image tags that look like this: ..... {/IMG} and post them right here where you type. That way, they are stored on a remote site and it doesn't take up space here on the forum.

Many of the photo hosting sites are totally free.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)




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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

Here are how some of the shingles r not laying properly. Do u think this is an issue? Thanks for response.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

There.... you got it!


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

The valley pictures look a bit like what I would call a closed cut valley but its hard to tell.
If its the valley it appears several possible issues.
1. they didn't roll the shingles far enough up from the center on the uncut side.
2. They did not clip the corners and bed them in tar when they cut the valley
3. They have poorly placed nails too close to the center. 

The raised shingle in the last picture is certainly not normal. I could toss out a "wild" guess that when they tore off the roof they bent or trashed ply clips and now you have some ply buckling.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

They changed all the plywood, looks like they went over the old boards? That's fine, but a few techniques need to be applied to prevent the sheets popping like that. They'll need to remove some shingles and reattach that sheet.

I use spiral or ring nails, driven at an angle, 6" on centre at all seams when I sheet over boards.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

The shingles are popped up like that in many places. And they did not use any tar in the valleys just solar seal caulking after I had to call him because of leak. I don't no what to do now. should I call another roofer to get an estimate to fix the bad work? My roofer seems to think everything is fine and fixed. I'm just so upset he has my 10,000 and the roof can not b rite.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Was it storm and ice shield they used in the valley?
If it was my job I would have done an open valley or a woven valley.
I would have stopped them before they hit the ladder If I saw then with a caulking gun in there hand.
No way is caulking going to fix this long term.
They even screwed up the bottom course of shingles.
No way should it turn up like that at the valley.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I''m not sure what they used under the shingles some sort of thick black stuff in the valleys and 3 or 4 feet up from the bottom on the whole house but the rest was some kind of synthetic paper that had been stapled on I wasn't crazy about it. It didn't seem to stick down at all. There is so may issues adding up now.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

emylou said:


> I''m not sure what they used under the shingles some sort of thick black stuff in the valleys and 3 or 4 feet up from the bottom on the whole house but the rest was some kind of synthetic paper that had been stapled on I wasn't crazy about it. It didn't seem to stick down at all. There is so may issues adding up now.


the thick black stuff sounds like ice & water which is used in valley's and roof edges. The synthetic non stick also sounds like typical shingle underlay mat'l. When applied properly all should be good in that regard.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

the raised shingle in post 7 looks like shingles that were not stored flat while still in the bundle. If a bundle is stored on edge or with something under one side of it, it will bend shingles like this. The roofer should have tossed them aside. Any dealer would have gladly exchanged them. But now that they are down there is still a good chance that a few hot sunny days will help them lay down. If its the ply popping as others suggested, its going to take at least a partial tear off.

The valley would be my biggest concern. If a caulk gun fixed the leak, ask the roofer if he is going to come back every year for the next 30 to re-apply it!


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Underlayment is roofing 101, if you cant get that right you have problems. Caulking the valley like that is a joke, if it had I&W shield it wouldn't be leaking in the first place. 

Was this reputable roofing contractor with a license? 

You have no choice but to call them back out and tell them caulking is not an acceptable repair and you want the valley redone. Unless you have deep pockets, then I would hire a professional, licensed and local roofing contractor to inspect the entire roof. Pay them to fix or replace it and then sue the guy who did that original work. 

Whomever it was that came out and caulked the valley is not allowed back on your property, you need to go further up the company ladder.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

He is a licensed contractor with a pretty big roofing business, he specializes in metal roofing. I would have just gone metal but he told me he could shingle as well but i'm finding out he hasn't done to many shingled roofs. He doesn't do the work just his employees but it all looks bad and now that its looking its more than looks. I think i'm gonna call to get some estimates on what it would take to fix his mistakes and take it to the magistrate. Don't no if I will get anywhere, just so disappointing. I bought this fixer upper a frame and thought doing the roof would b a big step forward but now i'm really behind I can't ever think of putting up walls and ceilings when I no its only a matter of time till a leak pops up. The underlayment seams to be done correctly its the rest that's not. Not having walls in half my house I can see that back side of one of the valleys and c there is no nalis to close and can feel the thick black rubber feeling stuff they used in the valleys with my finger through the corner so how its getting through there is a mystery. Like I said I have an aframe with a very big slope, water must shoot down them valleys pretty fast.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

He also tried to tell me not to worry that solar seal has a 30 year warranty. (the caulking he used)


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## griz (Sep 22, 2015)

What is your location?

You have a contract?


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I am in central PA. I have a printed out paper with the estimate ,what I paid him, and his license number. But not so much a contract.


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## griz (Sep 22, 2015)

Look at the link I posted and scroll down to home improvement registration.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/porta...uction_code/10524/contractor_licensing/553817

Call that number and see what you can find out and hopefully file a complaint.

Don't know what your state's small claims laws are but that may be an an option.

Roof definitely does not look right.

You need what is called a "peer to peer" review should you go to court. Get two other reputable roofing guys to state what is wrong with the roof and how to fix it with costs.

Peer review would not hurt to confront this guy.

Bet he gave you the price and subbed the job out.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Terrible job..

Those shingles are designed so that when laid properly they will resemble a cedar shake look. Not the case here.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

It just got worse. I pulled back some insulation and seen that a lot of plywood is wet with mold on it and some of the nail points are rusty or have a bead of water on them. I don't no if its a leak or some type of condensation. Even if it is I don't want that in my walls behind my pine paneling? This is just getting crazy. I'm calling him in the morning but don't no where to go from here. I don't want his dumbass crew to even put there hands back on it.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

That whole roofing job is garbage. It looks like something that a flipper, Gypsy or Fly By Night company would do. The roofer needs to come back, tear all of that garbage off and then eat the costs, while installing them properly.

There is no way that I would turn around and pay another roofing company to come in and fix someone else's poor workmanship, without getting a hold of the manufacturer of the shingles and also the state licensing board, along with the Attorney General about the job.

If you wrote a check and it has not been cashed. Stop payment on it. If already cashed, file an order with the court to have the contractor let the judge put them in their place and order them to eat the costs to either redo it, or pay a reputable roofer to come in and replace that job, with the money you paid the other crew.

Where exactly did you get this roofer referred to you, and also how many other jobs did they give you info on, so that you could inspect their work, before deciding to go with them. Also how many other companies bid on this job.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Proper examples of how to do a roof. http://www.gaf.com/Video_Library/0_darpmmhd There are plenty of examples out on the Internet of what a roof valley should look like.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

He is surprisingly a pretty respected roofer. Metal roofer that is. I am 2 blame for never seeing a shingled roof of his. I am to the point of a breakdown of some sorts. I paid him in full 1 month ago but surely anyone who sees this roof would b on my side. But with winter coming and all the pine walls I spent a year putting up I'm afraid that now the work have done is also going to get ruined. I;m sure when I call him out he will just say its fine and that its condensation on the sheathing because I don't have walls up. But come on in 1 month that much, and if it is you should have put some kind of vent. My old roof didn't have any and really didn't leak.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Yodaman said:


> the raised shingle in post 7 looks like shingles that were not stored flat while still in the bundle. If a bundle is stored on edge or with something under one side of it, it will bend shingles like this. The roofer should have tossed them aside. Any dealer would have gladly exchanged them. But now that they are down there is still a good chance that a few hot sunny days will help them lay down.


A good point I hadn't thought of. :vs_bulb: How long ago was the roof done? Have there been some warm sunny days? If thats the issue it might take longer on a shaded face like a north side.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

emylou said:


> It just got worse. I pulled back some insulation and seen that a lot of plywood is wet with mold on it and some of the nail points are rusty or have a bead of water on them. I don't no if its a leak or some type of condensation.


1. How long ago was the roof done?
2. When was the insulation installed? who installed it?
3. is there ventilation? 
4. Does this A frame have a cathedral ceiling?
5. Did they add baffles when they did the plywood?


As to the valley leak, maybe it isn't in the valley if there is ice and water shield. Did the caulk stop the leak?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

how about some more pictures?
A couple from "across the street" so we can see the whole house.
maybe a couple on the inside where you see the leak, where the insulation is, etc.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

its bin about a little over a month now since the roof was put on plenty of time to seal down I would think. I had a 30 year metal roof removed, having moisture problems at my older house I kept an eye on it here and I did not have at all. I didn''t have any vent b4 with the old roof as I don't no. I do not have cathedral ceilings. I have just rolls of insulation between the rafters, some of the house has walls some is not finished. I will get some more pics later. The valley is not leaking rite now but the sloppy caulking job will only hold up long enough 4 me not to come back to the contractor. Even if it is condensation he should have put in vents, but how could I have that much in such a short time to cause mold when it only bin cold a couple days?


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

Now it looks like alot of the shingle rows r startng to cup up a little and all the nails on the inside of new sheathing have a bead of water on them. Also some of them new shealthing is wet?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

emylou said:


> its bin about a little over a month now since the roof was put on plenty of time to seal down I would think. I had a 30 year metal roof removed, having moisture problems at my older house I kept an eye on it here and I did not have at all. I didn''t have any vent b4 with the old roof as I don't no.



emylou - if you have no attic ventilation you most likely have a condensation problem. The main purpose of attic vents is to carry off moisture. Your old metal roof was most likely self ventilating and not closed up at the top or bottom and so moisture was not trapped. With the new roof all sealed up there is no way for moisture to escape. Condensation can build fast. 
Ridge and soffit vents working together are the best way to vent a roof if possible. (IMO)


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

emylou.... all of these close up pics are fine.... but if you would.... take some from farther back so that we can see the entire scope of your roof (inside and out if you can). It is really hard to determine what's going on when we can't see the over all layout of the house, or most of it.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)




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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

looks nice from a distance.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I am also seeing where alot of shingle ends seem close 2gether. It also does not seem very sealed up it is realy drafty upstairs which it seemed airtight b4.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

It does indeed....

OK.... when you mention "pulling the insulation back".... does that mean that there is batt fiberglass insulation right up against the under side of the roof deck? If so, you have changed the dynamic of ventilation on the house by going away from the metal roof which very likely was self ventilated, like already mentioned.

Now, very likely, that fiberglass is absorbing moisture from within the house and causing the moisture and rust on the nails. I don't see how eave vents and ridge vents will help you without a clear path for the air to move from the bottom at the eaves to the ridge vent at the top.

But, I am very unfamiliar with "A" frame houses and roofs. Maybe there is some way to ventilate them correctly, without losing all of your "wall" insulation. I mean, on an "A" frame type construction like yours, your roof IS/ARE your walls.

I'm stumped. Maybe someone smarter than me can help you. Sorry....


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

One other thing that was done that seemed wong was when the took the metal roof off there was wood rough cut boards running horizontily on the house that the metal was nailed to. Instead of removing that they put the new osb board on of those boards insteads of removing. Not sure if that would make any difference.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Not a fan of A frames for many reasons, reasons but as steep those roofs are it would take a real screw up to have one leak.
At a minimum they should have ran that Storm and ice shield all the way up the valley.
What are you using for heat, hope it's not an unvented propane heater, that would dump tons of moisture in the air.
I agree 100% with the poster that suggested not having the vapor barrier, insulation, sheet rock or something covering it all up is going to cause moist air to condence on the back side of the sheathing and the nails.
In your area I would have gone for SIP roofing panels instead of just plywood or OSB on the roof. No way are you going to know get the required R-50 minimum of insulation in that ceiling unless you build out the rafters or make it a hot room and have it spray foamed.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I mainly heat with wood pellets, ihave a pellet stove in my living room. I have only ran it twice since the roof was installed. I have pink fiberglass insulation between the rafters. Some in sealed up with plastic some not since i am in the process off putting up wood walls. There is a empty triangle space at the top of the A. Also a cold empty space at the bottom corners of house where the rafters meet the floor behind the 4ft walls. Why did he not put in a vent or atleast mention it? At this point i'm gonna need a new roof and it will now have to b metal this late in the year. Just so sick over all of this.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Very unlikely you need a whole new roof.
Highly unlikely it's been hot enough to get those shingles to lay flat in your area this time of year.
Buy a cheap humidy gauge and see what it reads inside the house.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I looked agin and seen the clips r there between osb on the top ad bottom but not on the sides. And where they r on the 2 sides of the wood i can barely get my finger nail to fit in it. Its very tight. Should the clips b on all sids?


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I had it installed on Aug 20 it was hot many days. Ones that where laying seems to be lifting up. Even on the top some of the ridge shingles r not lay down


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

So they have horizontal seams just clipped together for support? Garbage. With the horizontal purlins, they should have either ran the sheets verticle or cut the sheets to break on a purlin.
Unacceptable by any measure. That explains the bumped up shingles.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

You think that could b it? I think its a number of problems everywhere. But the purlins r pretty old there not rotted maybe a couple but pretty close. The old perlis r about an ich or 1 1/2 thick they have to get through that gap to the rafters. But the seem to b nailed to both. There was guys standing on boards nailed to the deck when working so it mut b able 2 support weight though.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

emylou said:


> You think that could b it? I think its a number of problems everywhere. But the purlins r pretty old there not rotted maybe a couple but pretty close. The old perlis r about an ich or 1 1/2 thick they have to get through that gap to the rafters. But the seem to b nailed to both. There was guys standing on boards nailed to the deck when working so it mut b able 2 support weight though.



Strength isn't the issue, the issue is an 8', or even 4' seam floating in the air will warp like crazy since it has no support, nothing to restrict it. The clips do almost nothing in that situation.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

When I was getting estimates for my garage roof, I had one guy tell I didn't need valley flashing.

What basically happens....especially further down the roof....the rain water gets enough velocity as it flows down the roof that when it gets to the valley it shoots up under the adjacent shingle. If there is not enough overlap, then it goes under the shingle.

Next question....you said you could see mold on the plywood and it was wet. 

Are you saying there is not roofing felt?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

emylou said:


> I''m not sure what they used under the shingles some sort of thick black stuff in the valleys and 3 or 4 feet up from the bottom on the whole house but *the rest was some kind of synthetic paper that had been stapled on* I wasn't crazy about it. It didn't seem to stick down at all. There is so may issues adding up now.


No, she said they used a synthetic felt.... perfectly acceptable as an underlayment. As long as it WAS synthetic roofing underlayment.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

CompleteW&D said:


> No, she said they used a synthetic felt.... perfectly acceptable as an underlayment. As long as it WAS synthetic roofing underlayment.


Yea....saw that after the fact.....I gota stop just browsing over posts.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

they did use an underlayment. I'm seeing the mold on the under side of my roof on my inside walls. since i have an aframe my walls r the roof. I'm thinking i need the valleys redone not caulked. I need sometype of venting and that some other stuff is done incorectly to make the shingles cup up like that. I will call around in the moring 2 c if i can get someone 2 look at it. I dont think i want hs crew anywhere near it at this point.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

I think you should remove your insulation and install baffles then re-insulate. Then you can add some sort of roof vent and soffit vent to create air flow, except in your valleys where you have not only leak problems but serious venting problems.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

emylou said:


> I do not have cathedral ceilings.


You do not have cathedral ceilings in the traditional sense. You look up and the ceiling is vaulted to the center ridge. 

But for practical venting and insulating purposes all of your outside walls with exception to your lower knee walls are cathedral. There has been much debate on how best to insulate them. Either spray foam the rafter cavities solid with no vent. Or the conventional method would be to leave a space for air to pass along with fiberglass insulation and lower intake and upper exhaust vents. (soffit and ridge vent)
you might want to search "venting a cathedral ceiling"

also this link will give you a quick primer, 

http://inspectapedia.com/insulation/Insulate_Cathedral_Ceilings.php 

good luck


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

The problem is that i have walls with insulation already in them with no way to get to it, only in a couple places can pull down the insulation and look down or up and every nails is rusty. Its hard to explain but i have no place for vents on the botom of house. I can get one put in on the top but the roof needs to be extended down further to make roof for sofit and facia i wsh i would have none 2 have this done in the first place. As the roofer should he have not mentioned vents? I would have diffinitly had something done now its kinda late.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

emylou said:


> The problem is that i have walls with insulation already in them with no way to get to it, only in a couple places can pull down the insulation and look down or up and every nails is rusty. Its hard to explain but i have no place for vents on the botom of house. I can get one put in on the top but the roof needs to be extended down further to make roof for sofit and facia i wsh i would have none 2 have this done in the first place. As the roofer should he have not mentioned vents? I would have diffinitly had something done now its kinda late.



In lieu of soffit intakes there are some other options. One is called a shingle vent. It installs low on the roof and replaces the typical soffit vent.

I won't speak for roofers, but I think insulation contractors have a good handle on ventilation, condensation and insulation issues.
Or a local engineering or architectural firm.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

Bless your heart, emylou! There are plenty on this site that can give you great advice. I went through the same scenario with a flat roof last year and these guys will keep you sane.

I ended up having to get another roofing company out here to fix my roof. First roofer did not give me any money back and would not pay for the repairs on the inside either.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

I got another roofing company to look at it and they said it has to come off. I'm going to call the original roofer to come and c it and try 2 get my money back, but have a feeling i'll b seeing him in court. Its bin such a nightmare. U couldn't take your roofer to the court for damages? I just can't wait to get it off and done with.


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## hotrod351 (Jun 15, 2012)

valley flashing not needed, true but the shingles need to be installed right. get estimates on how to fix it and contact the registrar of contractors, he will sit up a on site meeting and then give him time to fix it right or let you pay some one else to fix it and the original contractor will have to pay for it or loose his license, plus still pay for it. contacting the ROC will be the best thing you could ever do. if another roofer say it has to be completely redone then he will have to pay for it. i wouldnt mess around any more, your wasting your time and he doesnt seem to be worried about it.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

emylou said:


> I got another roofing company to look at it and they said it has to come off.


did he say specifically why? 
What will he do differently?
How will he address ventilation/condensation issues? 
How much insulation do you have in terms of R value.


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## emylou (Oct 10, 2015)

He said there in r no expiation gaps between plywood, we also seen places where the plywood isn't laying flush together. The h clamp is bent and not holding it down correctly. He doesn't think there is much of a condensation issue at all right now but he would put in a ridge vent. The valleys need redone properly especially since they now have black caulking allover them. And all the shingles that r cupping up he pointed out mainly seem to b every 4 feet where the plywood would begin. And its leaking somewhere were the wet plywood has mold on it. I'm going to get a second estimate ad look at it b4 I jump into anything but with all of the issues i'm thinking it will need replaced all together.


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