# Shingles being pushed up



## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

Have a 100 yr old house with boards for the roof deck not plywood. The roof was redone 6 months ago. The roof was stripped to the boards, ice and water applied over the whole roof and BP laminated shingles (lifetime warranty) applied. About two months ago I saw a couple spots were the shingles looked like they were being pushed up from underneath(bulging up). Now there are several more spots were this is happening. The areas affected are sides towards the sun. They also seem to be the spots were the contractor repaired the roof deck with used metal flashing from the old roof. He said there were a few punky areas and used the metal to give the roofing nails more grip.
_Is the used metal causing the problem ?_

_Should metal be used to repair a wooden roof deck ?_


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

That's crazy to have even though of doing it that way.
The boards should have been replaced.
A thin piece of rusty metal was not the best choise for nail holding.
If the roof decking was that bad they should have replaced it all or at least gone over it with 1/2 new sheathing.

Post a picture of the roof.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Call your roofer back to figure this out---In the mean time---post a few pictures---

There are several (a bunch actually) really good roofers here that have seen about every type of failure--Mike---


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

To chime in on this one.........no, I would not want old flashing used to fill in where the wood is bad on your roof. Imagine that you have to get up on your roof sometime to grab a frisbee, check out chimney flashing, or whatever.........anyway, you step on one of those areas........what's gonna happen? Yup, you guessed it......at the very least you're gonna compress the metal and leave a divot in a shingle or two. At the worst, you are gonna go through the roof injuring yourself and your pride.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Please, only one thread, this one, with identical question...
Thank you, Gary


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

Were you offered a re-sheet? (just curious)

I have seen lots of people using flashing for holes, doesn't make it right though.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

Sorry GBA in WA. Didn't do that on purpose. Lost my internet connection twice and thought messages were lost.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

I will try to post some pictures but it is hard to get a shot that shows it clearly because they are laminated shingles.

Brian


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

*Shingles being pushed up.*

Here's a few shots of the affected areas. Sorry it took so long. Had to figure out how to get a 5 meg. picture down to 100k.

Brian


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Used tins to cover small holes (old pipes, knot holes, splits etc) but should never be used to cover up rotted decking.

If you are sure it's solid ice/water then I would tend to discount it being underlayment buckling but that's what it looks like. 'Tis an odd one there but, you are right, something ain't right. 

The same number of roofers came down the ladder as went up in the morning, right? :whistling2: :whistling2:


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Clearly they cut corners. When you say boards, any way you can guess what kind of boards? 100 years old, did it ever have cedar shakes on the roof? Anyway.. Doesn't matter, it was done improperly and the contractor needs to properly replace the boards or you for sure have a lawsuit. Was this a licensed,bonded, insured contractor?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

There's no simple fix for that mess, it's all got to come back off.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

To the best of my knowledge no roofers disappeared on this job.:whistling2:The boards are roughly 1*10 and yes there is I've seen evidence of the roof at one time being covered by cedar shakes.

Brian


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

So if its 100 years old it was obviously stick framed. Go into your attic and take a look see. Are nails protruding through the " 1x10's" ? Do the 1x10's look like they are splitting apart? You should be able to see the metal used? Again. Doesn't matter. Licensed, bonded, insured contractor?


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

The contractor showed up to take a look. He could see the problem but assured us no metal was used on the front. I took Copperclads advice and put my head up in the attic and you can clearly see two lines of metal running side to side on the front(appears to be covering a larger gap between boards). This seems to match up with the lifting shingles on the outside. We will be contacting the contractor to inform him he was incorrect and demand money back or a full re-roof to remove the metal.

Thanks to everyone for your input. there was a lot of great suggestions.

Brian


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I was thinking the same as OABroken,,,Looked like a little laborer was Peeled & Sealed then felted and shingled.But I agree the areas containing metal should be reroofed.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

You don't need a whole new roof just a few rows torn off and replaced.

On these older homes with gaps in the wood we just deck over them (after complete tear off of old roofing materials. If they can't afford to do it right we do another job, then another, and then another...

All my bids on homes pre 60's include a provision for decking over the whole roof if gaps are found in the original decking more than 1/4in. The customer knows what the price will be if we have to deck over so there's no sticker shock and they know my criteria for decking gap allowance.

I see a lot of "roofers" from the deep South felt over decks with 1/2in-3/4in gaps all the time.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

dougger 222

I have roof with many spots on different sides showing the same signs as the front (that is what is in the pictures). In talking to the to the contractor he first said " no metal was used on the front". He then said his crew"couldn't remember were they put the metal".

I am not worried about the spaces between the boards (it has been roofed with shingles for many years with no signs of problems from this. If the contractor does not know were all the metal was put, its all has to come up because I am not going to repair sectons every 3-6 months as they pop up and be in a constant state of construction. Also ice and water shield was applied over the decking and metal. I fairly certain that unfortunatly pulling off a few rows is just not going going to solve this problem due the amount of used metal they choose to bang on and cover over with ice&water and laminated shingles.

If I sound frustrated, I am. I bought top quality material myself. The BP Mystic laminated shingles don't require a underlay(I was actually told it was a waste of money) but I went to they added cost to make sure I got a good product. What I got for my $10000 is a lemon, its defective product. The signs of problems started occuring months after installation.
You see small areas starting to push up. Then as time went by more areas doing the same thing.

At this point since since the contrator has admitted he and his crew do not know where all the metal is, the whole is getting redone. No this does not make me happy. The house and roof are 100 years old, who wants to see wood a 100 years old(I can see from the attic hatch issues with the decking, a lot more of it should have been replaced) having nails yanked out and more banged in. But at least if it is all redone, I'll have the peace of mind knowing it was all done properly.

Brian


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## roofnron (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't think this is what is causing your problem but there is a problem with having the spaces between the boards. The shingles must be nailed on the nail line. Dougger is correct. The roofer would have had to make sure that every line on the shingles didn't hit a gap between the boards. This would mean adjusting the exposure when needed to make sure that the nail hit the line on the shingle and hit into wood.

Per BP "Improper nailing will render the warranty null and void" -

http://www.bpcan.com/en-CA/bp-acade.../application-instructions-laminated-shingles/

Underlayments are important also: Check out tech bulletin #1 - 

"Our warranty on water leakage is conditional to the use of underlayment." - (BP believes it is important for something)

"Finally,the installation of underlayment under fi berglass shingles is mandatory to comply with Underwriters Laboratories Class A Fire Rating requirements." (Typo on their website) 

http://www.bpcan.com/en-CA/bp-academy/residential-roofing/specification/technical-bulletins/


I would also look very close to your ventilation. I saw the small ridge vent, but do you have intake vents at the soffits. I have seen a lot of old homes with no intake at all, probably for my area I would say most old homes have none. You have now sealed your roof with a complete water, air, and vapor barrier by using the Ice and Water over the whole roof. I think most of the time this is a very bad idea. This is what I would have looked at first when you first described the problem, not the metal. Would be interesting to see what you find if you were to go up there and pull a few shingles in a problem area.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

roofnron

The metal is causing the problem you can clearly see it through the spaces in the boards. You can actually see one section were the metal has rippled. The contractor has come back, looked in the attic and admitted it. The point I am making is for the last at least 30-40 years of which I owned for over 20 years the spaces between havn't been an issue. The problem I am having after only 6 months is due to a foreman that thought putting metal over punky areas and gaps was a great idea. I am not sure exactly how much used metal ended up on the roof deck. There was at least 100 ft of aluminum 2ft wide and probably 180 ft of metal fascia. By the end the job they was hardly anything left for the scrap dealer to pick up. This means there is a lot more areas which are going to eventually start looking the same way as the front(the side in the pictures). If they had of simply just put the shingles back on without the metal, things would have been just fine. The ageement I had was to replace any wood that not up to par. 

Yes I took this the time and money to install moore vents, ridge vents and two more roof vents(there were two already there). 

I do understand now that all roofing manufactures have a list of reason why they won't come good for warranty. I believe it was my contractors duty to follow their directions. I also read the recently posted article on why 85% of roofing jobs don"t meet warranty. Wish I had seen it before I started my job.

Thanks for the links but my assertation that underlay was not needed was coming from a Home Depot contractor authorized by BP to install there shingles. Wrong or right he told me these shingles have extra tar strips which seal them completly. He said you can blast water at them at 40 mph and it won't get through, underlay is not required and it meets code without any underlay. 

Brian


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

*Follow Up*

I talked to a licensed roofer, authorized by BP to install their shingles. He says its a total rip off . He explained that if they had to use that much metal on the roof it should have been resheathed. He also pointed out the shingles are being pushed up along the edge of the roof (he says due to improper fastening of the drip edge).

His solution is to tear off all the shingles, leave the ice and water and the metal. Put 3/8 ply over the ice&water and metal, 3 ft of ice&water along the eaves, and reshingle. New plumping stacks, flashing in the valley and roof vents.

Does this sound like a good fix ?

Brian


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

briansimola said:


> His solution is to tear off all the shingles, leave the ice and water and the metal. Put 3/8 ply over the ice&water and metal, 3 ft of ice&water along the eaves, and reshingle. New plumping stacks, flashing in the valley and roof vents.
> 
> Does this sound like a good fix ?
> 
> Brian


Yes, everything except re-sheeting over the edge metal. Take it off too and have it re-installed properly over the new sheeting to hide the edge.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

Sorry, he said he was going to remove the drip edge and re-install. the metal he is leaving is from the previous re-roof (patching punky areas and covering gaps between boards). Thanks for the response, it's good to know I am on the right track.

Brian


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## Hammer450R (Aug 17, 2012)

Rip it all off and start again, The new shingles wont last long with layer upon layer of sheathing and metal. No air flow.

All those layers is a condensation nightmare!


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## roofnron (Dec 7, 2011)

I would call BP and APA or plywood manufacturer and confirm the assembly is acceptable. Problem is sandwiching the 3/8" plywood between the full layer of ice and water and the new felt and shingles. 

Typically this is the way to do this roof, but the full layer of ice and water now adds a layer of complexity. Plywood has to be installed perfectly in the right environment for it to last. Too much moisture and you end up with wavy and warping boards, too little and you end up with dry-rot and deteriorated boards. 

You should develop the specs for the roof with the roofer. Don't think it means too much he is authorized installer. 

A couple of issues to consider. 

Make sure you get your intake ventilation correct. 
The deck thickness now will likely be almost 1 1/2". Will the shingle drip edge have a face large enough?
If you are putting ice and water to protect from ice dams then is needs to be extended at least 24" up the roof from exterior wall, otherwise you just wasting money. 
There may not be anything wrong with your existing roof vents. They can be re-used if they are proper to begin with. 
Same with pipe boots. If they used the plastic ones then throw them away and don't allow them back. 

I would also make sure the plywood is secured to the rafters (longer nails) and with the edges breaking over the rafters. They boards should be staggered with the expansion gap.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

*It Continues On*

I decided to ask for a refund for the roof portion of the renovation from my contractor. I didn't do this to be vindictive but because other problems became apparent and roofing contractors advised me that he probably would not fix it properly. I've attached his response and a letter he got from an estimator who looked at the roof and did a complete 180 after talking to my contractor. Any feed back would be welcome.

Brian


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I may have missed it but have you contacted the factory rep of the shingle company and ask them to come take a look?
I've done dozens of 100 plus year old houses with rough hewn lumber and not one of them looked as bad as yours does. I've also never once used metal to cover up any flaws in the old boards. How do they expect a thin piece of metal to hold a nail over rotted or missing wood? Way to easy to just cut out the bad areas and replace it.
If I know I'm going to be stipping an old roof I know for a fact there's going to be broken, or rotted wood so I have on hand at least 10, 5/4 X 12' pieces of pine sitting there so there's no excuses not to fix it.


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

I sent an e-mail to BP and included the letters. There response was to refer me to there installation instructions and warranty information on their web-site. I pushed the issue by threatening to file a claim using the letter from the BP certified estimator as proof that the problem was not installation, so it had to be a material problem but they just e-mailed the installation and warranty information. I guess no one want to take a stand for fear of law suits or rubbing somebody the wrong way. I'm not sure why they used all that metal, except that they took a short cut at my exspense as I've told by a few roofers that I paid top dollar for a substandard job(they would re-sheeted the roof with 3/8 ply and re-shingled for less than what I oringanally paid).

Brian


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## roofnron (Dec 7, 2011)

Sorry to back bring up an old topic, but I wanted to add some advice for Brian, if he hasn't resolved anything as of yet. 

I wouldn't expect anything different from the contractors or the manufacturer than what you have. I think roofers here would agree that you have a workmanship problem.

I take issue with the contractors statement #1 regarding the use of metal. Tell him to show you this from some a 3rd party source like NRCA or the APA if this is standard practice. Installation instructions from BP say " The deck must be in good condition. It must be dry, clean, flat, smooth and securely nailed. Plywood decking is recommended." This doesn't appear to be the case. Also from BP - "Decks that are warped should be replaced as the shape will be transferred over the shingles. This is not a shingle manufacturing defect and is not covered by the warranty." We talked in an earlier post about nailing requirements and it is very likely the shingles are not appropriately nailed either. You are left with a shingle warranty that is completely "null and void". This is not what the contractor or roofer sold you. 

I would think at minimum the contractor should pull all the areas with the metal under the shingles, correct the decking properly, and re-install the shingles. 

To make sure you get the contractors to do what it right you can file complaints with the BBB, your state licensing board, and any associations the contractors may belong to. Also you can talk with the insurance companies for both the contractor and the roofer. They have to provide this information to you if you didn't get the info already. Eventually you may have to end up in court. 

You should also try to hire a roof consultant to report to you an unbiased opinion of the roof. I am curious to know if you have gotten any further with BP. I doubt they will want to look at it but it would be great if they did. 

The estimator is an idiot. Send the letter to an officer of the company he works for and see if they will sign it. (Bet not) The purpose of recovering with plywood is not to "eliminate cosmetic deficiencies". It is to give a place to hold the shingle nail. With laminated shingles, the nail must hit the nail line of the shingles and hit into wood decking. "minimum of 19 mm (3/4”) into solid wood deck". Where the shingles are lifted and buckling is this BP requirement fulfilled? From the pictures, it appears no, therefore the installation is not correct.

A problem being cosmetic is not a forgivable excuse.


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## heguangm (Nov 13, 2012)

*so the problem is not Shingles?*

I like the last reply, like a summary. I know little about roofing.

Want to confirm that in this case, the installation is the problem?


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## briansimola (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks roofnron,

No, the situation has not been resolved. The problem with alllowing the contractor to spot repair, is he first said there was no metal on the front face of the house(the one in the pictures), after looking in the attic he changed to they don't where they put all the metal. Yes, I realize the could spot repair the front and other sides but what about the rest of the metal. At the end of the job from what I could see left of the flashing and fascia, about 65 ft of 2 foot aluminum flashing and 140 ft of aluminum fascia went on the roof. The lumps in the roof don't seem to account for it all and he didn't seem to want to deal with the ski slope affect along the eaves(caused by improper nailing of the drip edge ?). The question is do you now have a new roof or a roof thats been repaired in so many spots, that it's going to be a ongoing headache.
I searched the internet and could not find any reference to metal being used to repair a roof deck as standard practice. Most said replace wood with similar wood. A few said maybe for knot holes or a hole from plumbing stacks. As you pointed out metal does not grip nails.
The roofing consultant is a good idea, I will keep it in mind if I have to take this further. The last I heard from BP was a e-mail that included copies of their warranty and installation instructions. I guess they don't want get involved.
You are correct about the BP shingle installation instructions. Even more interesting are the application intructions for the BP grip guard. "Remove all shingle,felts,nails and metal from roof deck area"."Always apply gripgard directly to wood deck".
As for the estimator, I have had several people out that one can only imagine why a professional in his field would do a complete 180 basically destroying his own creditability.

Thanks again,
Brian


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