# Please HELP, Pink bleed through on white



## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Hello there. I hired professional cabinet painters. They removed existing dark stain and colored my cabinets an off white. The problem we are having is a constant bleed through. They have shellacked it to block out the dye and painted over it several times. It's super frustrating because the pink streaks keep coming through. I'm not sure what to think. Does anyone have any experience with this? This has been going on for several months. Is there anything on the market to actually block this dye or am I stuck with the streaks? I'm wondering if they didn't remove enough of the dye in the stain in the first place. Please advise. Thanks in advance.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Some more details might help. "Colored my cabinets an off white." Was this a stain, paint, what exactly did they use? Was it water-based? What type of wood are the cabinets made of? Some woods are notorious for bleed through. Any water-based topcoat may act as a wick for the tannins in the wood and that's what is appearing as pink streaks. Most of us on here use Zinsser's BIN pigmented shellac for instances like this. It's the absolute best.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Thank you for your quick response. The painters sprayed a paint that has an enamel in it that hardens over time. I believe it's a specially formulated SW paint . I believe it is water based but I will have to ask to make sure. They have told me that they have shellacked it many times, but it still bleeds through. They have done some areas 3-4 times, but it still bleeds through pink. They say it's the adelline dye(sp?) that is coming through. I will have to ask what brand of shellack they are using. We have been working through this issue since August of last year. I'm just so surprised that this issue cannot be fixed


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

That Zinser primer *may *bleed some colour through when it is applied, but any bleed through will stop on the next coat.

Used it on many re-paints for cabinets. Highly recommended.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

I will check and see if they have tried this particular brand. I'm getting the feeling from them that they have exhausted all resources and I just want to believe that this is not the case. Are you guys familiar with this Adeline dye(so)... I was not but I'm sure you guys are. I just need some hope that this can be remedied. It's seems like it should be doable but we have had cabinet doors going back and fourth several times and the pink STILL bleeds through. The frame has pink in it too I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to have a kitchen in limbo for nearly 9 months!


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Aniline? :}


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Yes that's probably how it is spelled. I do not know about the different dyes I'm just told by my painters that this is the dye that is coming through and apparently there is no way to block it according to them


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Interesting article:

https://generalfinishes.com/blog/20...gh-on-mahogany-furniture-from-the-1920s-1930s

Maybe the painters here can tell you if your painters were supposed to tell you about the difficulty, as the article says.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

I'm just trying to confirm what I have been told.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Interesting article which makes me believe that the pink will never go away. The product on there before was gel stain. As I said before, I'm wondering if they didn't take enough of the stain off in the first place because I still remember seeing a faded version of the stain on there before they started painting. I thought that was normal and maybe it is. But maybe it was not taken off as much as it could of been


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

They did sample doors for me. They stripped the stain away by dipping into their solution. I was told the doors looked like raw wood when they came out. Anyway, the sample door did not have pink in it and looked awesome so we went ahead with the project. They did say it was more difficult to to from dark to white but that is why they were going to charge be quite a bit more because they had to strip the the stain off. At this point in the game it would have been less expensive and less stressful to have just bought all new kitchen cabinets


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

I guess sometimes we learn things the hard and expensive way. If anyone else on here has experience or solutions that have worked for them with this particular problem I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm sure these painters have experience with aniline dye :wink2:


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## mathmonger (Dec 27, 2012)

I am no expert on painting cabinets, but I have heard of this problem. As I understand it, the dye cannot really be stripped like a stain or paint. It goes too deep into the wood. The only way to take the color out is to bleach it. 

It sounds like your contractor was pretty professional about it. They did a test and it came out fine, so they decided they didn't need to bleach the wood. But for whatever reason, that test was not representative of the whole job. 

It sounds like these guys are professional cabinet painters. This is not some hack handyman. They don't need the customer telling them what brand of shellac to use based on something they read on the internet. 

Going forward, there is no easy answer. It's a mess. Maybe you could strip everything and bleach and then shellac again and paint. 

Or refacing the cabinets might be a good option, short of replacing everything.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Yes, I agree. They are good at what they do. They came highly recommended by people I trust. I honestly believe this was just a job gone wrong. And , yes, I think the shellack they are using is probably the best. I'm sure they want to be done with this job as much as I do so they have tried to keep going over it. I just wish there was an easy way to fix it, or just a way without costing a ton more money and time. That's why I came here to see if anyone else has had the same problem and did something that actually worked. I still can't believe how this dye can come through still with all of the shellack and coatings they've done.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

A few rare times I've ran into stains that multiple coats of shellac wouldn't block, I have used aluminum roof coating to spot prime, then primed and painted again. 

That's an old trick my dad showed me that has never failed, I don't think anything will bleed through aluminum. 

It's an extreme step to take at this point, but it's always worked for me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Thank you. I appreciate that information.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

This might be a dumb question , but could you do this process over existing paint?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

so was the original coating a dye aniline dye stain or a gel stain? Or was it dye stained with a gel stain over top of it? And did they strip a clear coat off of it? They probably should have left the clear coat on, as it would have been the most effective way to keep the aniline dye from bleeding. As far as getting a good quality aniline dye to bleed from the wood, they are really on to something here! It is extremely difficult to get a true, alcohol based aniline dye out of wood by any method. BUT that being said, most aniline dye are alcohol reduced or water reduced. Sometimes acetone is used. My experience tells me that a GOOD alkyd primer needs to be used, as the solvents are much less likely to re-wet the dye. Unfortunately I would also recommend stripping them back as close to bare wood as possible.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Oh boy. Sounds like a great deal of work.

The product that was on there originally was General Finishes Gel stain. That's it.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

The cabinets were plain hickory before the gel stain was applied.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

I was wondering if someone could tell me if there is aniline dye in general finishes Java gel stain? I talked to one customer service representive at a wood store that thought not. I was not able to get a hold of General Finishes themselves as they are closed for the day. Thank you in advance.


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## 1acre (Oct 5, 2015)

Gf gel stain is a gel varnish with most likely pigment, not a dye. You'll be hard pressed to know for 100% what type of dye and/or pigment is used, as companies keep you shut out to boost profits. 

I'd go back to the basics...the shellac, was it new and tested to be sure it was still good? What cut was used? How many coats? How was it applied?

I have shellac around and use it a couple times a month. I've switched my refinishing procedure to be a 1/1.5 lb cut of shellac coat two times, then zinsser 123 prime. 

If I were the OP, I'd go out and get some fresh shellac, test to ensure it is good, washcoat with shellac a couple coats, reprime and then paint. All this is done on a test sample of course. None of this should hurt anything other than a relatively few $$$ and a little time compared to new doors. Failing that, move onto the aluminum stuff.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Tannen said:


> I was wondering if someone could tell me if there is aniline dye in general finishes Java gel stain? I talked to one customer service representive at a wood store that thought not. I was not able to get a hold of General Finishes themselves as they are closed for the day. Thank you in advance.


The SDS should tell you. If you haven't seen one before ( MSDS) they are all scary :} See Section 3

https://generalfinishes.com/sites/d...a-general-finishes-ghs-us-hcs-2012-v4.3.2.pdf

It seems like a whole Pandora's box. You'd need to know each chemical.


This was interesting but may be a little biased: 

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Analyzing_aniline_dye_problems.html


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Do they think you have endless money? No offense to the painters here.


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## 1acre (Oct 5, 2015)

Not all chemicals are reportable on a SDS. Only those deemed to be "toxic." For instance, a gel stain contains a viscosifier, most likely guar or xanthan, but neither are on the SDS. At least I didn't see them in any form that I am used to seeing those on SDS sheets (as a polymer). I didn't see anything related to aniline, but since the gel stain is essentially a varnish, I'm not sure if that will be conclusive. And my o chem is not that good, so it is likely I may have missed something.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

1acre said:


> Not all chemicals are reportable on a SDS. Only those deemed to be "toxic." For instance, a gel stain contains a viscosifier, most likely guar or xanthan, but neither are on the SDS. At least I didn't see them in any form that I am used to seeing those on SDS sheets (as a polymer). I didn't see anything related to aniline, but since the gel stain is essentially a varnish, I'm not sure if that will be conclusive. And my o chem is not that good, so it is likely I may have missed something.


Aniline dye is very toxic. will get a ref.:wink2:

Well, some say it is & some say no longer as much. Hate to use Wikip, but it has references. I would think that if this gel had aniline dye in it, it would say on the SDS. But, no expert. Maybe one will come.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniline


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Remember simple over the counter Mercurochrome? 

MSDS http://www.nilechemicals.com/MERCUROCHROME%20MSDS%20LAB.htm

Kind of funny. :biggrin2:

http://www.prochemical.com/MaterialSafety/Auxiliaries/Guar Gum.pdf

Tannen, I will stop amusing myself. I do want you to get a good answer,


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## 1acre (Oct 5, 2015)

Depends. I dont know if the dye itself is hazardous, or if it is the carrier fluid which causes all the health risks. Carrier fluid being some form of light petroleum distillate. So, can you break it down and report other things, and not the dye?

Taking a few steps back, pigments tend to be used more often than not in stain. If you think about how the gel stain is supposed to be used and how it works, my uneducated guess is pigment is used. And the OP is being given a line of crap. Again, I would go to a process I can fully control and know works more often than not, then go from there. I wouldn't waste my time with the SDS, which isnt meant to disclose everything within a product. Companies are very good at disclosing what they need without allowing other teams of scientists to fully figure it out. JMO.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

aniline dye and gel stain are two completely different products, intended to be used in separate stages of the finishing process. Although some people will adjust color in gel stains with an aniline dye, it is not used that way during the manufacturing process of gel stains. 

Aniline dye in powdered form is typically not toxic. It is the solvents used as carriers for the dye stain that can be toxic. Acetone, methanol (very poisonous), tricloroethane 111 (known carcinogen), denatured alcohol, and even water are all solvents used as carriers for dye stains.

Fyi, I worked 10 years in a plant that manufactured and blended dye stains. I am in no means a chemist, but I did manage a testing lab for stains at one point. Kind of like sleeping at a Holiday Inn Express, I guess.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Gosh. Thanks everyone. You all have been so very helpful and kind. Thank you. So I just got off the phone with General Finishes. They have confirmed that there is NOT aniline dye in the gel stain that was removed from our cabinets, or in any of their stains for that matter. They do not use dye but rather pigment. Aniline dye, from what I have been told is old school and is really not even used anymore. Having this information doesn't really do much for me but only makes me wonder why I have been told this. I'm not even sure what to think anymore. I have been told by my guys for months that it is aniline dye from the gel stain. My cabinets were bare before this( the gel stain)so I know there was nothing else on them. The General Finishes guy recommended everything that you guys have so kindly recommended. He is quite surprised that these blocking methods have not fixed the problem. It's just so frustrating. My kitchen is huge. I'm talking a lot of cabinets with pantry cabinets. On the inside of the drawers and on the sides of the cabinets when you open them they are all PINK! Pink hues everywhere... Lol ... We were going for off white. 

So where would you all go from here?


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## 1acre (Oct 5, 2015)

Again, I'd go back to a process I can fully control. Take off a door with the offending pink. Buy some shellac. Test shellac to ensure it is good (put on piece of glass and see how it runs off). Cut shellac to 1 lb cut. Washcoat with shellac. Add 2nd coat. Prime. Paint. 

I dont know who did your paint job the first time. And I get they came highly recommended, but at this point all evidence is pointing to the fact that they can't be trusted. So, who knows it's what they really did?


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Yes, I see your point, but I also want to cry at the same time........


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

I actually meant


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Throw up a few pictures. Sometimes we can tell from a pic what might be happening.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

1acre said:


> Again, I'd go back to a process I can fully control. Take off a door with the offending pink. Buy some shellac. Test shellac to ensure it is good (put on piece of glass and see how it runs off). Cut shellac to 1 lb cut. Washcoat with shellac. Add 2nd coat. Prime. Paint.
> 
> I dont know who did your paint job the first time. And I get they came highly recommended, but at this point all evidence is pointing to the fact that they can't be trusted. So, who knows it's what they really did?


It has already been shellaced several times. I would suggest maybe using a grey primer, such as gripper. Maybe we are looking at this wrong could the problem be the paint mix rather than the primer? PAC?


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## 1acre (Oct 5, 2015)

You don't get my point. There is a business here that I would deem to be untrustworthy. So are you vouching that they did it properly? Or even at all? Can you tell us if their shellac had gone bad or not?


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I found articles that say it can just be from the wood, but they have no explanation.

Tannen, there are some pretty rust red kitchens. . .kind of a Spanish look. :}


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

jlhaslip said:


> That Zinser primer *may *bleed some colour through when it is applied, but any bleed through will stop on the next coat.
> 
> Used it on many re-paints for cabinets. Highly recommended.


Right. Bin alcohol based is it. The only 1.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

1acre said:


> You don't get my point. There is a business here that I would deem to be untrustworthy. So are you vouching that they did it properly? Or even at all? Can you tell us if their shellac had gone bad or not?


You are correct I don't get your point. Just because they have run into a problem does not make them untrustworthy. Seems highly unlikely that all the coats of shellac has gone bad. While situations like this are rare they do happen. And yes if they did it the way the HO describes then yes they did it right.


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## Tannen (Apr 10, 2016)

Hey guys I am back. So if you were following this thread, the original culprit to my problem was the aniline dye. Now I know that it is NOT this because the cabinets before were plain Hickory then went to gel stain(no aniline dye) and now to white. I'm still wondering why I was told this in the first place(but this is a moot point now) I only seeked after this information to try and see how to combat the problem(aniline dye)...which I am told is very hard to get rid of. So don't know if my guys know what it is at this point. My question is, is could it be the stain remover that was used? I think they used that citrustrip[product. I think I am just worried that in order to get this done properly it's going to take a great deal of starting from scratch. Not sure they are willing to do this or not. When comparing pieces of wood that are painted on the wood that never had stain on it, there is such a difference. One looks as it should(off white)he other pink hued...the whole thing. You have all been so helpful. Maybe nothing can be done at all.

~Tannen


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