# Cedar deck creaking and popping



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I have a customer with a year old deck--treated frame and cedar deck boards--

It creaks when walked on and is frustrating him---

He tightened the deck screws---and a week later the noise is back.

FYI---it has been hot hot hot here with little rain---

I watched the construction---good quality materials--proper methods---overall--a top quality job---Mike---


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> FYI---it has been hot hot hot here with little rain---


That’s likely the cause. When I’ve been called out on what is usually just a few problem squeakers glue has been the fix if it is actually the decking to joist connection that’s the problem and not other frame issues.

It’s time someone comes up with a ring shank screw. Never seemed to have these problems when we used to nail decking with ring shanks.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I agree--I will look in in this deck in the next day or two---My guess is the shrinking of the green treated framing---this hot dry weather is making wood move in places no one has seen in 25 years---

Good customer who likes to keep his house in top shape---Like I said---the carpenters that built it were experienced and it looked to me like they used tried and true methods and good quality materials--

Any suggestions?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> Any suggestions?


Pray to the Rain Gods …I don’t know, like I said glue has been my solution for a few problem boards.

Hopefully someone will come along and enlighten us both Mike.

Has he talk to the guy that built it?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The two fellows that built it have moved out of state---

Good carpenters---both of them---


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## woody4249 (May 4, 2012)

In the immortal words of George Costanza................"It's Shrinkage"

Check out this video. Roofing felt is good but thin packing foam also works.

http://www.ronhazelton.com/tips/how_to_prevent_a_deck_from_squeaking


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks Mike for posting his, I'm the home owner. I also indicated in the rare instance we do get some rain, the deck is noise free till the wood is totally, once its dry, all the noise comes back, and sadly its not one or two boards, if it was I would not make a big deal over it. Its the entire deck, and let me tell you its HUGE. 
I talked to one deck man he said I should pull out the 2.5 deck screws (coated) and reinstall 3" reverse thread screws, having the thread on top of the screw should be more secure , but when I talked to the tech guys at GRK screw Co, they tell me NO WAY should I use 100% threaded screws. So I'm getting mixed signals from pro's in the business. I respect Mike judgement, as he did my entire kicthen and did a fantastic job, having Mike near me is a God's sent, he always is there if I need a hand. 
I'm hopefull to get this resolved soon. Gary


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I’m not sure why the rep said not to use a fully threaded screw. Standard fully threaded screws don’t work for composites but I’ve never had issues with them on Cedar. Fully threaded and reverse threaded are two different things, your post made it sound like they were the same unless I missed something.

What type of screw are you using now, full head or trim head?


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

As you know, here in the Midwest door frames can swell so much in the humidity of summer doors within in them hang up. They shrink in the dry winters so the same doors can rattle. I have seen tops on grand pianos crack when moved from a humid environment to a dry winter home here. So, it does not surprise me the deck is squeaking as it dries out.

Even if the contractors used the driest treated timber they could find it probably had some additional drying out to do and as mentioned it has been so hot and really not as humid to go with it as can be the case. 

It would be somewhat costly but you could pull the decking and put some cork underlay down and then screw the decking in place again. It will hold up outside. 

I always nailed or screwed decking with the fasteners at a slight angle with the logic it would be harder to pull them loose if they were not straight.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I'll be seeing this tomorrow on my way to Woodcraft--

I'll let you know----


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

The screws that are down are 2.5 " coated, half threaded. sorry I was not clear on that. full head, I guess I'm curious that if what you are saying that full threaded screws are fine, why are 99% of the standard deck screws half threaded?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

turbomangt said:


> why are 99% of the standard deck screws half threaded?


That’s a very good question. I've always thought that they were just cheaper to make. 

Maybe one of our resident Engineers can answer that for us. :thumbsup:

It seems to me that a half threaded screw would promote movement, which in your case is not your friend.

Sounds like Mike is checking it out tomorrow, we’ll wait for a report.

It may be picture time.  (of your screws anyway)


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Here is a pic of the screws used on the deck, its raining here now, so the deck will not make the creeks and cracking noise till it dries out again. Maybe I should just water the deck every other day and that will take care of the problem....


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

turbomangt said:


> Maybe I should just water the deck every other day and that will take care of the problem....


That’s actually not a bad idea. 

People add humidity to there homes for various reasons, In drought stricken expansive soil areas they water their foundations with soaker hoses.

We’re in a drought, like Mike said he’s seeing wood move like never before. 

If all it takes is a little moister to hush the deck then maybe the occasional watering is the thing to do until you get back into normal weather patterns and see what you have then.


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Mike stopped by over the weekend, I'm sure he will chime in. Mike said that in all his years, he never heard a deck with this kind of snap crackle pop, he recommended I go to the Deck Yard, which I did, they are a deck supply company, when I got there and explained my issues, he showed me some screws, however he had no screws that in my mind I need to correct this issue, maybe someone here has a resource. after talking to mike and these poeple at the deck yard, the common theory is that I'm getting movement under the bottom head of the screw and the boards, (which again leads me to ask why they sell half threaded screws as deck screws?) I'm told I should remove old screws and replace with full threaded ones, however when I remove the old ones, I'll already have a hole/cavity from the old screws, I would think I need larger diameter (to grab more wood) and also I think I need a larger head to full down the boards, right now the holes are pretty recessed with the old screws. so I would like to know who I can contact to get the right screws, I'll do a small section first see if that corrects problem.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Fastenal is in your area and has full thread deck screws.


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 1, 2010)

here are a couple of articles which may help in understanding why your deck squeaks. Squeaks are generally wood moving against metal. I would think both replacing the screws with full thread screws and adding water would greatly reduce the noise.

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2011/10/21/everything-moves/
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The deck really pops----the cedar deck boards have a good bit of play against the screws---1/6 to 1/8--

Expansion of the cedar during the wet/winter season sank the heads into the surface of the decking---

This heat and drought has shrunk the thickness of the decking a bit--and now the planks ride up on the screw head when it rains--then 'pop' back down when we see more of this hot dry weather--

I suggested he track down a box of full thread screws--he received samples from a screw maker--(post a picture)--

The new ones ,I suggested, should be installed on a slight angle--in opposing directions--

Just a sample section large enough for a test---

I would actually like to do the test----while some plank popping is normal---this one is really rude---screaming,"Look at me!"


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Is this Western Red Cedar we're talking about or another species? The amount swelling you mentioned is something I haven't seen as you described it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes--western red cedar---Ive never seen the likes of it either---


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

It would be interesting to see the the end grains on a few of these boards. Not a request, not that it would help, just saying.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Perhaps the OP will see this and post one---I'll be seeing him on another matter on Friday---If he hasn't checked in here I'll ask him to do so.


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Guys, I snapped a couple of pics here, not sure what you can see. 
here is what I know so far, (and what I dont know)
some say to remove floor boards lay down ice and water shield, those against this say way to much work, besides the issue is with the floor and screw head not the floor and joist. some say remove screws, dip in glue, reinstall to secure screws from moving. this may be an option as I have not heard any response to discredit this procedure. 
some say to use longer screws (same type smooth on top) others say this makes no sense since I'll still have the smooth surface on top below the head, so movement will still occur. some say remove screws put back in at slite angle, not sure on this one. some say use a full thread screw, the arguement on this is when you screw in a floor with a full thread screw, it pushes the wood away rather than pulling it together. (I cant believe no one can agree on this one) some say don't use the same size head, but use a larger one because now the screw is recessed, and a larger head will pull more the board in to the joist. 
this seems crazy to me that such a simple thing should be this complicated. at least Mike has heard it, so we can agree on one thing, I'm not crazy. LOL


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure if this helps, but my deck sounds very similar. Treated frame, cedar decking. I used 2.5" screws without threading all the way up the shank and my deck makes zero noise and it has been a DRY and HOT summer here also. My hardware is stainless, but that shouldn't make a difference ..... should it?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I'll be visiting this deck again soon---I am also surprised---but I have an idea or two---


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Another mystery on the DYI forum, Gald I got Mike (the boss) close by.
take a look at that pic showing a close up of the screws in the deck, it does appear they put them in on a slight angle, which is what Mike suggested, I'm also concerned that they recessed far to much with the head, smaller head or same won't help much I dont think, has anyone used glue with screws to ensure they don;'t move?


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## Drew63 (Nov 10, 2011)

Not to de-rail... but could you tell me what grade of cedar you used for the decking?
Thanks.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Kwikfishron will know,I bet---

Most of my knowledge is interior work.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Are the boards cupping? Maybe cupping and since the screws are so far to the sides the middle pops up and causes the squeak when you step on it? Try putting a square on top of a few of the boards?


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

The boards all seem flat except for one board I noticed that has warped a little. I have multiple screws samples here, each company is telling me why THEIR screw is best (market ploy) and now people are saying I should put tar under the boards, Man alive, this is nuts, we land a robot on Mars and I still dont know how to fasten my deck boards down. I hope Mike can figure this out. who would think his biggest challenge in his career would be to figure out how to screw down a board. LOL!:huh:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Here is a link to several different fastners and different type screws used on decks, there is one screw that has threads on both ends and snaps off, that may be worth looking at.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5IDQAg&usg=AFQjCNHvgX1TUOe2NVVLt2JA1nlxo4O91g


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

That is a great article, if THEY don't have what I need it doesn't exist, one thing about those knock-off head screws, tell me if I'm wrong, once the heads of a screws is gone, in the furture of you have to pull up a board, your screwed, no pun intended. .


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for the pics. 

I was curios about the end grain because I’ve seen some second growth come down the pike that’s pretty bad, some with ¼”+ growth rings. These boards are more prone to movement and checking. 

It looks like what you have is pretty common, 2&better 5/4 tight knot. The decking I use is all 2x and is kerfed on the bottom which does help prevent any cupping of the boards.

I’ve never seen those screws with the snap off heads before. I do like the idea of not seeing a the screw head but I think the head "is" needed for holding power. 

For awhile we were using trim head trim head screws on cedar decking because the hole pretty much disappeared over time. I wish I didn’t now because of the lack of holding power. 

The trim heads weren’t a major fail they did produce a few callbacks over the years from occasional board working loose.


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## Drew63 (Nov 10, 2011)

kwikfishron said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> 
> It looks like what you have is pretty common, 2&better 5/4 tight knot. The decking I use is all 2x and is kerfed on the bottom which does help prevent any cupping of the boards.


Do you cut the kerfs yourself on each board? About how far apart on a 2x6?
Thanks.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

OKDrew63 said:


> Do you cut the kerfs yourself on each board? About how far apart on a 2x6?
> Thanks.


No I don't, it comes that way.


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## Drew63 (Nov 10, 2011)

Didn't know that. I'm looking at 2x6 Architectural knotty WRC for decking, which I guess is equivalent to the Select Tight knot grade. Grades are a bit confusing to me. I'm unsure if this would have any kerfs on it.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

OKDrew63 said:


> Didn't know that. I'm looking at 2x6 Architectural knotty WRC for decking, which I guess is equivalent to the Select Tight knot grade. Grades are a bit confusing to me. I'm unsure if this would have any kerfs on it.


The kerf doesn’t have anything to do with grading, it’s just that some mills run it that way and others don’t. I use it because that’s what my lumber yard usually stocks. Every couple of years or so they'll have decking without the kerf for a few months and I’ll use that too. 

Check THIS out, it should help you understand Cedar grading. There’s a lot of good info on that site that could probably clear up any other questions you may have about Cedar.


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## Drew63 (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for the link, I've seen that before and it has helped, but not everyone I talk to around here (lumber yards) seem to follow that type of wording to describe their grades. I finally found a place that uses the same descriptions and the Architect Knotty looks like what I'll be good with.

It's running about $2 a linear foot for 2x dimension, does that sound like a decent price? (Oklahoma)

Didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, but I searched for fasteners and this was one of the threads that came up, some good info.
Thanks.


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

ok back to topic
after talking to several deck builders the general consenus to remedy the problem is to remove boards, re-install using adhesive and longer screws, the dry summer is not helping the matter, however with the adhesive, this is suppose to get the boards secure to eliminate the movement that is occuring resulting in loose screws and sqeeky boards. make sense to you guys?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Makes sense to me...I said glue's the fix in my first post. :blink: Was hoping someone would come up with something else that didn't require removing all the decking.

I'd be looking at a polyurethane based adhesive like PL Premium. The wood will rip apart before the bond breaks.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I agree---Ron what do you think of re-using the screws---the deck was installed in April a year ago---I think the will be fine.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

If you can change the decking layout just a tad so your not in the same holes then the same screws should be fine, otherwise I’d want longer screws.

Even if it cost a box of new screws having a box of slightly used deck screws laying around the house isn’t necessarily a bad thing.


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

How does that PL stuff compare to industrial liquid nails, I used that before and you can glue a bar on a beam and do chin ups, its that strong. of course in either case I hope I dont have to replace any boards in my life time.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

turbomangt said:


> How does that PL stuff compare to industrial liquid nails, I used that before and you can glue a bar on a beam and do chin ups, its that strong. of course in either case I hope I dont have to replace any boards in my life time.


Don’t know, I’ve never tried the chin up test with PL. I see LN now has a poly based adhesive, although I’ve never used it I’m sure it’s tough stuff. 

Whatever you go with make sure it says “weather proof” on the label and not just “weather resistant”.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

glue and 3 1/2" deck screws added for the larger diameter grab into the same screw hole or as Mike mentioned, angle the new screw some while installing. deck screws do not have threads at the top because they will break with to much pressure applied from movement of the decking wood, the idea is for the decking to give a little around the shank while the screw stays firmly seated into the framing- the unfortunate result of this is squeaks and creaks...

to use full thread screws or not along with glue will be up to the homeowners discretion though I doubt cedar will pop the heads of to many screws because of how soft a wood it is...


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

so I assume if we glue the boards, the screw type is not as important? 
another point was mentioned since the boards are coming up, perhaps some joist bracing every so often might tie in the frame better. I do get a fair amount of "bounce" in the floor as well.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

The “bounce” in your deck is likely contributing to the problem. 
I don’t quite understand “joist bracing every so often might tie in the frame better”. 

If there’s enough deflection in the joist the deck feels bouncy then adding a beam mid-span would likely be the fix. Hard to say what all of the issues may be without seeing them. You wouldn’t expect any of this with a new deck. 

How big are the joist and what are the spans?


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

Its on ground level, cant' see under side, all boxed in. I know 16" is the spacing, when we get to the boards, I'll know the size of the joists.


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## smokeum (Jun 12, 2014)

*noisey deck boards*



oh'mike said:


> I have a customer with a year old deck--treated frame and cedar deck boards--
> 
> It creaks when walked on and is frustrating him---
> 
> ...


 
I have the exact same problem when it rains they are quite, when they dry in the sun, cracky noise all over.


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## turbomangt (Sep 17, 2009)

What I ended up doing was I hired another contractor, they removed all the boards, one at a time, and when they screwed them down again, they put adhesive down on the joists, its been 2 years now since this was done, not one single creek out of the deck anymore, you would have thought the original guy would have done this in the first place


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## junityep (Apr 19, 2015)

*same issue*

hi

I've read all 4 pages of your post. I also live in Chicago (downtown) and also have had a creaking deck. I was wondering if you can tell me your contractor's name / number?

Alternatively, I like to do these projects myself. I would appreciate any further verification of the method he used: 

(1) When they put the adhesive on, did they only put adhesive on top of the joists, or did they also put any adhesive or glue in the screw holes? 

(2) Do you know the adhesive and/or glue products they used?

(3) Did you stick w/ the same 1/2 threaded screws or use longer/thicker/fully threaded screws? Any idea if they were 2 1/2 inch?​
Thanks very much. What an annoying problem!

Adam


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