# Concrete Driveway Deteriorating In One Year



## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

If a cross section were to be cut away I'd expect it to look similar to this dry pour.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> If a cross section were to be cut away I'd expect it to look similar to this dry pour.


Thank you. Why would a competent concrete contractor pour a shoddy mix like this on such a big and pricey job?

And what's with the lame excuses from the project manager on such a big and pricey job? Road salt and sealer, really???


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*too bad you didn't post where YOUR where's located,,, that wouldda been a big help*


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

stadry said:


> *too bad you didn't post where YOUR where's located,,, that wouldda been a big help*


Northwest Indiana. Why?


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*i don't think it froze,,, conc may've been overworked causing delamination*


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

stadry said:


> *i don't think it froze,,, conc may've been overworked causing delamination*


I'm not sure. There were some pretty cold days following the pour last year, but they did have it covered. At the same time, they didn't have any warming blankets on it, but then again this wasn't done in the dead of winter, either.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

That looks like scaling to me, and it's caused by the freezing and thawing in the presence of moisture, and deicing salts are susceptible to scaling, also the use on non air entrained concrete or too little of an air entraining agent will give you the same results.

If you think this is the result of a shoddy concrete mix,i would suggest you contact a concrete testing lab to core the slab and do a lab compression test on it, along with some other pertinent testing.

Can you tell us where you got this information.


"From my research, I am finding that the road salt is not to blame, but can sometimes make other problems appear, such as an improper mix or cure."


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Bottom line is, the current driveway has a problem. Whether the solution is a complete replacement or a cash compensation is to be determined, or something in between. But that answer can't come from internet advice. IMO, you need to locate a person or company capable of reviewing the damage and providing a solution. With that you can then make demands upon the contractor.

Note, before all work started you should have obtained a certificate of insurance describing coverage for problems like this. If you have that it would have come directly from his insurance company and then you could be talking to them, directly.

Bud


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> Bottom line is, the current driveway has a problem. Whether the solution is a complete replacement or a cash compensation is to be determined, or something in between. But that answer can't come from internet advice. IMO, you need to locate a person or company capable of reviewing the damage and providing a solution. With that you can then make demands upon the contractor.
> 
> Note, before all work started you should have obtained a certificate of insurance describing coverage for problems like this. If you have that it would have come directly from his insurance company and then you could be talking to them, directly.
> 
> Bud


I have linked my Father to this thread, he will be able to read all of your comments.

Thus far, he has dealt primarily with the project manager for his construction projects, as the same builder has done work on two of his properties throughout the past couple of years.

Thank you for all of the input.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

This post makes a person wonder where the code enforcing folks are when concrete is poured and just as important pre- pour recommendations.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> This post makes a person wonder where the code enforcing folks are when concrete is poured and just as important pre- pour recommendations.


Code enforcement or the city inspector isn't at every job site when jobs are being worked on. Pfft, just like the roofing inspector. Their job is to take money in exchange for a colored piece of paper that you must display, saying that you paid the tax in order to be able to work on your own home.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Code enforcement is not about quality of work. Some pretty terrible work can pass the code requirements.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Canarywood1 said:


> That looks like scaling to me, and it's caused by the freezing and thawing in the presence of moisture, and deicing salts are susceptible to scaling, also the use on non air entrained concrete or too little of an air entraining agent will give you the same results.
> 
> If you think this is the result of a shoddy concrete mix,i would suggest you contact a concrete testing lab to core the slab and do a lab compression test on it, along with some other pertinent testing.
> 
> ...


I have found multiple articles and Q's and A's through a google search that point out that the thawing of frozen water by ice melt/road salt can expose a problem in the concrete mix, but that ice melt/road salt is not to blame as the concrete should have been mixed and laid properly to last just as long as the many 100+ year old sidewalks and roadways consistently exposed to ice melt/road salt for 100 years without breaking down this quickly.

One of the articles mentioned a concrete sidewalk and concrete wall in Central Park in New York City, while discolored and darkened with age, has not deteriorated much in the 80+ years that it has been exposed to the elements, including plenty of road salt.

The question posed by this article was that why are some folk's driveways and sidewalks in front of their homes breaking down in just a few short years when the science of concrete has actually improved throughout the years?


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## rrmccabe (Sep 3, 2018)

Around here there is no inspection on driveways. I had at least 10 inspections during house build but they could care less about flat work.


I have seen concrete do that when poured dry and they used water to work up the fines to get a finish.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

joed said:


> Code enforcement is not about quality of work. Some pretty terrible work can pass the code requirements.


A dry pour that isn't a cohesive mixture is about quality of material?


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

I don't do Concrete work but have worked with cement as used in exterior Stucco & have seen this type of failure in the sand floated finish.
The cause in the Stucco was the mechanic used dry powder cement to accelerate the finish that was too wet to float so adding the dry powder would take up the water so he could float it. This would normally show up with temp. changes over about 2 / 3 months.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

What does the contract say?

If I were you I would get a core sample analysis. 

I'm a retired QA / Mech. Engineer. I've always been a DIY guy so when we had our barn built in 2016 I was hands on, helping (opinions vary) everyday.

When it comes to quality concrete what I found was you have to be hands on and have a very clear contract up front.

This list is for a concrete slab, but it also works for driveways.

What elevation will the slab be? Make sure the construction drawings show the final elevation that is relative to a fixed undisturbed point at the building site.
Ask when the slab will be poured, early in the construction or near the end?
Ask how they prepare the sub-grade for the concrete slab. Tell them you are likely going to have a density test performed before the slab is poured (Even if you're not). 
Ask what concrete thickness and what concrete strength will be used. Tell them you want to see a mix sheet for the concrete they are proposing to use and that you will inspect the mix sheets for every load that arrives on site and you shall approve it before it is used.
Ask if they follow American Concrete Institute (ACI) standard practices.
Ask if they will follow ACI “Cold Weather Concreting” standards.
What reinforcing steel will they use? If they are using mesh or rebar what type, diameter, and spacing?
If they use mesh, are they using sheets or rolls? Do they use wire ties to secure the re-bar / mesh? Do they overlap the re-bar / mesh at seams?
Will they use dobies or chairs to properly locate the reinforcing steel?
Will they also use fibre mesh, in addition to reinforcing steel?
Will they cut the control joints within 12 hours?

I’ve tried to use the saying “Trust, but Verify” whenever I am working with a contractor. The following is what I did when the slab was poured on my barn to ensure I received the concrete I asked for. My contractor and I agreed to this, and everything went great. Additionally I had a local testing lab take 5 samples the day of the pour and perform mechanical tests at 14 day, 28 days and 56 days. More on that starting at Post #126 here: https://talk.classicparts.com/threads/lakeroadsters-high-country-barn.22110/page-7

A couple weeks before the pour get a copy of the concrete plants “Trial Mixture Summary Sheet” for the strength that you want. It will look something like this:

*Trial Mixture Summary Sheet* (see photo below)


*Plan ahead. * 
You’ll want to be at the job site when the concrete truck arrives. Each individual truck that arrives will have a Mix Sheet for the load it is carrying. This Mix Sheet defines the breakdown of the materials and will correlate with the Trial Mixture Summary Sheet. It will look something like this:

*Mix Sheet* (See pink photo below)


Be up front with your contractor and tell them you are going to do the following:

Be onsite for the entire pour
Review the mix sheet and the amount of water that will be added. 
Either approve or reject the load of concrete if it doesn’t meet the Trial Mixture Summary

Once you get the Mix Sheet you can check it against the Trial Mixture Summary Sheet. The critical thing is the Water Ratio to Cementitious Ratio.

That’s why it is critical that you watch to see how much water they add at the job site. If you approve the load and they start adding water, find out how much water and re-run the numbers.

The ratio on the mix sheet is the maximum.
(Note that as the mix strength increases this number drops).

If they add too much water and the ratio increases above the maximum specified number on the Trial Mixture Summary Sheet, that’s too much water, *reject the load*.

In the above example 4,000 psi Mix Sheet:

1,951.6 lbs = 224 Gallons of water was used 
4,540 lbs = Amount of cement

1951.6 / 4540 = 0.43 = which is the Water Ratio to Cementitious Ratio

0.43 is less than the specified 0.49, therefore the Water Ratio to Cementitious Ratio is ok.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Thank you for the advice, HenryMac. My Father was assuming that the Project Manager who works for his construction contractor would have verified all of the above, as they contracted out the driveway concrete work to another company.

This is a very large local firm, not some shade tree contractor, after all.

He will be seeing all of your comments, though.


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## rrmccabe (Sep 3, 2018)

In the Midwest any concrete contractor would laugh at you if you requested that kind of info or double his price.


Not going to argue if it has value or not, just saying that would never happen around here. I have been around concrete pours for the last 40 years and have never seen at anyone even look at a mix sheet. Course we were not pouring bridges either. Just slabs.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

SoloMan89 said:


> This is a very large local firm, not some shade tree contractor, after all.


Having worked in the oil and gas industry at the end of my career, I worry more about the big companies than the small ones. 

Trust but Verify


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

rrmccabe said:


> I have been around concrete pours for the last 40 years and have never seen at anyone even look at a mix sheet. Course we were not pouring bridges either. Just slabs.


You've never seen anyone look at a mix sheet? Wow. How do you know the mix plant sent you what you ordered?

Slab or a Bridge, they are all engineered structures. My money is just as green as that the county or state is giving the concrete contractor.



rrmccabe said:


> In the Midwest any concrete contractor would laugh at you if you requested that kind of info or double his price.


I hear this line a lot and it's very telling. So that leads to the question: Why? What do you have to hide? Nothing specified there that a good concrete crew doesn't already do. 

And mix sheets... Every load has a mix sheet, the driver has it. 

Why would anybody want a contractor working their project if the contractor isn't even wise enough to verify the concrete mix by reviewing the mix sheets?

Everybody makes mistakes... that's where "Trust but Verify" comes into play.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

rrmccabe said:


> In the Midwest any concrete contractor would laugh at you if you requested that kind of info or double his price.
> 
> 
> Not going to argue if it has value or not, just saying that would never happen around here. I have been around concrete pours for the last 40 years and have never seen at anyone even look at a mix sheet. Course we were not pouring bridges either. Just slabs.


 That's exactly the way it is. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## rrmccabe (Sep 3, 2018)

Like I said I am not arguing the importance. Just stating what I have seen around here.


The tickets I have seen say nothing more than 7 yards 3000# limestone, etc. 



But in all honesty I have not been around concrete the last 7 or 8 years. 



I have been working on jobs before where a contractor ordered early and the truck sat there for a long time and they just tried to add water. I have said no frigging way, I am not taking it.


But on a driveway pour the finishers are usually finishing forms, laying rebar/wire and the the driver is backing up dropping his chute. 



Just saying.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Acquainted with a fellow that pumps concrete. The stiff mix syndrome has become so popular it couldn't be pumped so he finally was forced to tell one ready mix co. to take their dry mix and shove it because it couldn't be pumped. This was on some fairly large jobs and a RM company that has been in business for 75 years so I assume they were mixing to a specific specification designated by an engineer.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

rrmccabe said:


> In the Midwest any concrete contractor would laugh at you if you requested that kind of info or double his price.
> 
> 
> Not going to argue if it has value or not, just saying that would never happen around here. I have been around concrete pours for the last 40 years and have never seen at anyone even look at a mix sheet. Course we were not pouring bridges either. Just slabs.



I agree with you, that guy talking about mix sheets must be breathing some of that rarefied air in Colorado, i worked for a red-mix producer for 40 years, and we supplied for Sears tower and John Hancock buildings and countless federal,State, and City jobs, tunnels,runways at O'Hare, you name it and we supplied it, and NO DRIVERS have a mix sheet ,just the delivery ticket with the amount of yards on the truck, and the strength of the mix.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*what the **** are ' mix sheets ' ? all i ever get's tickets ( sign here & don't steal my pen !) showing mix design, time trk was loaded, wtr added at plant, 30d compressive strength, air content, desired slump,,, if we add na cl, that's also shown + other additives as %ages,,, i'm w/woody
btw, your bldr had specs but didn't check quality of workmanship imo,,, guy in the office ? his job's pushing paper*


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

You'd be surprised what folks will do... if you ask.

And just because you never ask for a mix sheet, doesn't mean they don't have them.

It's 2018 folks.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*of course they have 'em,,, they also have state calibrated scales but i don't ask to see the calibration stickers ea yr,,, we've never replaced ANY conc that didn't perform as ordered but its only been 35yrs*


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*of course they have 'em,,, they also have state calibrated scales but i don't ask to see the calibration stickers ea yr or go to the plants to examine them,,, we've never replaced ANY conc that didn't perform as ordered but its only been 35yrs*


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

stadry said:


> what the **** are ' mix sheets ' ?





HenryMac said:


> ... just because you never ask for a mix sheet, doesn't mean they don't have them.





stadry said:


> of course they have 'em,,,


Well that's certainly clear..


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## Ziggy85 (Oct 23, 2018)

Most commercial pours will have the 3rd party engineer to test on site, butcfoe small jobs the trucks don’t really have to wait and it gets done quick.......it looks to me like the finishers were lazy and finished too early or late, added water to surface, and possibly didn’t apply cure.


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## mcpascaln (Nov 25, 2016)

Is there anything in the contract that mentions on a lifetime warranty for workmanship?


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*samples taken on jobs - compressive strength, flexural, air content, & slump - are usually large commercial &publlic works/ fed/dot/municipal jobs,,, never saw anything like that on h/o work or even small comm jobs*


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

stadry said:


> *samples taken on jobs - compressive strength, flexural, air content, & slump - are usually large commercial &publlic works/ fed/dot/municipal jobs,,, never saw anything like that on h/o work or even small comm jobs*


I'm a crazy radical lunatic... I asked and it was done for free. I went to the plant 2 weeks before the pour, talked to their QA guy, asked some questions, asked what they could do to verify quality, and he offered to help.

If you pick a concrete mix plant that does good quality work, they do this on the big jobs, so doing it on smaller jobs isn't a big deal, it's actually "Standard Operating Procedure".


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*you mean a plant actually sent samples out for 24hr, 7d, & 28d testing ? 
to a conc test lab ? who performed the slump test ? that's done out of the chute/wheelbarrow. 'they' (conc co) actually do it for themselves as precaution when/if they're sued + quallity control,,, its rare for an owner to blindly accept supplier's test results,,, eg, all our conc plants are dot certified yet dot inspectors routinely 'work the plants' during large placements,,, owner'll take certifications but usually retain/hire their pe/test labs/inspectors/eng firms to help out when they get overloaded,,, have you done much of this work or just read up some ?*


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

stadry said:


> *you mean a plant actually sent samples out for 24hr, 7d, & 28d testing ?
> to a conc test lab ? who performed the slump test ? that's done out of the chute/wheelbarrow. 'they' (conc co) actually do it for themselves as precaution when/if they're sued + quallity control,,, its rare for an owner to blindly accept supplier's test results,,, eg, all our conc plants are dot certified yet dot inspectors routinely 'work the plants' during large placements,,, owner'll take certifications but usually retain/hire their pe/test labs/inspectors/eng firms to help out when they get overloaded,,, have you done much of this work or just read up some ?*


ACA, they do all the state and local projects... certified lab on site where they do all the testing.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

I should have said all the "local" state projects.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Where do they come from?


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*is it a test lab located on plant's property ? owned by the plant/conc company ? my experience - company-owned testing labs AND testing personnel had/have to be state certified to be acceptable,,, this is for conc AND asphalt materials - at least in nj, ny, pa, md, & ga*


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

SoloMan89 said:


> From my research, I am finding that the road salt is not to blame, but can sometimes make other problems appear, such as an improper mix or cure.



I'd tend to agree with your conclusion here. Ask the builder why the concrete streets, curbs, gutters, sidewalks, etc... that see copious amounts of salt, and aren't sealed, don't delaminate in the same order.

From the pictures you posted, it certainly looks like a textbook case of delamination/peeling/scaling. There's many reasons why it can happen, as has been listed here by a few: freezing too soon, too much bleed water, too much water all together, over worked surface, it got rained on, air entrainment was too low, etc....... We're all just guessing here what "exactly" happened though, you need a lot more information than we have to determine what might have actually happened in this scenario.

Regardless, it shouldn't be considered acceptable on a new driveway, it's inferior work. It needs to be warranted by the builder and/or the concrete sub.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

jomama45 said:


> I'd tend to agree with your conclusion here. Ask the builder why the concrete streets, curbs, gutters, sidewalks, etc... that see copious amounts of salt, and aren't sealed, don't delaminate in the same order.
> 
> From the pictures you posted, it certainly looks like a textbook case of delamination/peeling/scaling. There's many reasons why it can happen, as has been listed here by a few: freezing too soon, too much bleed water, too much water all together, over worked surface, it got rained on, air entrainment was too low, etc....... We're all just guessing here what "exactly" happened though, you need a lot more information than we have to determine what might have actually happened in this scenario.
> 
> Regardless, it shouldn't be considered acceptable on a new driveway, it's inferior work. It needs to be warranted by the builder and/or the concrete sub.


Believe it or not, this has still not been resolved. The build still isn't done after nearly two years, my Father hasn't paid the full amount, and the builder seems to be ignoring the issue and not pursuing. I'm not sure how they would be comfortable continuing to pay the insurance on the structure and not receive their final payment? This is a weird situation all around. I wish I was in charge here......I wouldn't be so lenient!


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## 195795 (May 24, 2013)

BlaineBug said:


> ... Why would a competent concrete contractor pour a shoddy mix like this ...


Umm...cuz not a competent concrete contractor

Were job quality/workmanship/guarantees included in contract ?

Never have a homeowner do a lawyer's job :vs_mad:


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*there's always small claims court,,, the reason bldr hasn't done anything is there's no reason for him to act til someone lights a fire under his ***,,, IF the judge finds for your father, have him file a lien on the bldr's lots/unfinished houses*


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

I think small claims is only good up to 10 grand.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Texasdiyer said:


> Umm...cuz not a competent concrete contractor
> 
> Were job quality/workmanship/guarantees included in contract ?
> 
> Never have a homeowner do a lawyer's job :vs_mad:


We have yet to find out. I spoke with him this evening, he is planning on taking action soon. In my opinion, soon can't come fast enough.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Canarywood1 said:


> I think small claims is only good up to 10 grand.


You are correct, small claims court does have a monetary limit of some kind. And from what I know, you can't just file in small claims court for $10,000 if it is possible that the real damages are higher than that.

I guess this is to limit the amount of people pursuing $10,000 as a slightly easier alternative or loss in comparison to bigger court problems.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Here are some new developments.

The foundation and main floor concrete slab, including about a 6' extension on the front of the structure that supports a second floor deck above, was poured probably at least 6 months to a year before the driveway that I showed to be deteriorating and crumbling in my earlier post.

This is a section of the older slab that is outside. You can see one of the five stone wrapped columns right beside this damage that supports the deck above.

It really looks like their concrete work was crap all around, and not exclusive to the last pour of the main driveway!

I'll just go ahead and mention it right now, Henn & Sons Construction, Inc. of Cedar Lake, Indiana was hired for this entire build. I'm not sure who they subbed the concrete work tho.

Remember, this is the result of a $250,000+ build. Not some cheap project where my Father cut corners to save money. As I probably already mentioned, he was adamant about adding additional rebar and depth of gravel to make sure the concrete was the best that it could be for the sake of longevity.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

That looks like a design error, if the slab and pier aren't monolithic. What's the width of that little area that still has some snow on it?


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

huesmann said:


> That looks like a design error, if the slab and pier aren't monolithic. What's the width of that little area that still has some snow on it?


The width from the stone to the earth? Maybe 5"? I'm not sure about thickness.

My father had an independent concrete contractor come through and said that not everything would need to be replaced. His bid for repair did not include full excavation nor tearing out the rebar. I'm not sure how any of this would work but they said they could shave down and then pour on top of the existing.

That doesn't all add up in my head but this is a professional's opinion. A certified letter detailing all of this and much more was apparently delivered to the builder/contractor for this job.

I was also not present nor do I know all of the fine details of their conversation so I am providing you with the bare minimums.

By the way, if any of you were wondering what in the heck this structure is exactly, it is basically a large garage/shop but due to being a new build had to include living space. There is a very wide 18' door, a single car door, the garage is very deep and wide. There is a laundry room, shower, and bathroom on the first floor. Upstairs has a kitchenette, pantry, gigantic walk in closet and is basically a very big "studio" which has a putting green with 4 holes as well. As you can see the piers that are wrapped in stone, there is also a large deck that overhangs over the driveway from the second floor, and there are four large sliding patio doors on the second door allowing a great view of the lake as well as access to the deck from the second floor alone.

My Father has a two-story lake house across the street, and in this area, the lakefront lots are extremely cramped. There is only outdoor parking for one or two cars maximum and very little storage. So that is why he had a desire fore more space and built a new structure across the street.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

To bad for the project manager, who is the one responsible for the quality of the work.

He may blame the road salt - but that means he did not protect the pour after it was laid.

He didn't do his job...

Let's say the fellow was fishing one day and all the carpenters used only one nail per stud and the entire house fell down. Who pays - certainly not the customer...

This is a quality issue; poor subcontract hired, lack of supervision, lack of materials inspection, improper/poorly trained labor.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Domo said:


> To bad for the project manager, who is the one responsible for the quality of the work.
> 
> He may blame the road salt - but that means he did not protect the pour after it was laid.
> 
> ...


Thank you. My Father says another meeting has been schedule next week in response to his certified letter. No resolution has been given by the builders/contractors. Litigation may be the only feasible result for him, I am hoping he will take that route if satisfaction is not met. At this point, being almost two years behind schedule (can you believe that!) I seriously doubt satisfaction will be met without taking legal action, personally.

My Father had mentioned that the project manager told him that they knew that they were treating his project like the "red headed step child" and prioritizing other jobs ahead of his, leach lead to the delays. When I heard that I was baffled, especially coming from a company with the reputation of Henn and Sons.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

I suggest your father send copies to the licensing board and request they attend the meeting. Out of courtesy, he should notify the contractor also.
NO EMOTION can be used, NO he-said, she-said. The only thing to be presented is contract terms, written correspondence (text is admissible - get it printed out). photographs and witnessed affidavits from experts (such as the company that made the concrete if they would testify as to why the concrete might be failing).

Make sure you father knows this is not a personal attack. It is simply business.

Never use the words "You/him/she/I" instead say, "the company/the licensee/the subcontractor". As soon as someone says; "you should have...{fill in the action}" it will be personally offensive and that other side of the table will stop listening.

Good luck.

If you could secure a lawyer well-versed in contract law it could be well worth paying $100 to get them to attend the next meeting. You might be able to find a team that would do the work Pro-Bono if it appears that could be a penalty for delay, etc.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Domo said:


> I suggest your father send copies to the licensing board and request they attend the meeting. Out of courtesy, he should notify the contractor also.
> NO EMOTION can be used, NO he-said, she-said. The only thing to be presented is contract terms, written correspondence (text is admissible - get it printed out). photographs and witnessed affidavits from experts (such as the company that made the concrete if they would testify as to why the concrete might be failing).
> 
> Make sure you father knows this is not a personal attack. It is simply business.
> ...


I will forward these suggestions.

Attorneys in this area charge about $250 per hour including travel time. No attorney is going to show up for $100, unfortunately.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

BlaineBug said:


> I will forward these suggestions.
> 
> Attorneys in this area charge about $250 per hour including travel time. No attorney is going to show up for $100, unfortunately.


Guess I just showed my age! :vs_laugh:


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Domo said:


> Guess I just showed my age! :vs_laugh:


Oh yeah. I would say that $200-$250 hourly is pretty usual for our area. $200 is even low, and I'm sure it can go up from there.

It will be interesting to see if the project manager blames this new cracked concrete on road salt, considering it is probably 75' from the road.

Unless he will just stick to that story for the concrete nearest the road that has surface deterioration.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

BlaineBug said:


> Oh yeah. I would say that $200-$250 hourly is pretty usual for our area. $200 is even low, and I'm sure it can go up from there.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the project manager blames this new cracked concrete on road salt, considering it is probably 75' from the road.
> 
> Unless he will just stick to that story for the concrete nearest the road that has surface deterioration.


Seems the project manager from that area (I assume) should have some basic knowledge about the conditions where he lives and works? Dontcha think?

Contact the company that makes the cement (if it was a big pour it should have come in a mixer and delivered to the site - they should have a definitive record of the mix they delivered to your door - and they should know how it was supposed to be spread/polished for that area and application. 

After being a licensed contractor it is upsetting to hear about those that just don't step up and say, "It's failing. Either the product was bad or we didn't put it down correctly. I'll schedule a crew to remove and replace it. Sorry for any inconvenience." I've been there, done that and by doing so had developed great customer loyalty. Sometimes, keeping your mouth shut and simply replacing something that's wrong can be the best advertising.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Domo said:


> Seems the project manager from that area (I assume) should have some basic knowledge about the conditions where he lives and works? Dontcha think?
> 
> Contact the company that makes the cement (if it was a big pour it should have come in a mixer and delivered to the site - they should have a definitive record of the mix they delivered to your door - and they should know how it was supposed to be spread/polished for that area and application.
> 
> After being a licensed contractor it is upsetting to hear about those that just don't step up and say, "It's failing. Either the product was bad or we didn't put it down correctly. I'll schedule a crew to remove and replace it. Sorry for any inconvenience." I've been there, done that and by doing so had developed great customer loyalty. Sometimes, keeping your mouth shut and simply replacing something that's wrong can be the best advertising.


We live in the times of anti-responsibility and projection. Accuse your accuser of that which you are guilty of yourself! How big nor small it doesn't matter who it is, these tactics are used everywhere I'm afraid.


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## ConcreteLady (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm curious if this sort of thing is more common because of the source of concrete or who actually laid it... I would obviously prefer to avoid companies who sell cheap and cracking concrete if thats the case!
-Concrete Lady


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

ConcreteLady said:


> I'm curious if this sort of thing is more common because of the source of concrete or who actually laid it... I would obviously prefer to avoid companies who sell cheap and cracking concrete if thats the case!
> -Concrete Lady


It's not common. I see a lot of pristine concrete in my area that lasts. Most certainly the majority of local concrete pours are not deteriorating at this pace!

Although at the same time, there are occasionally problems with concrete, too. I know of another guy who works in my company who was having a deteriorating issue with his driveway's concrete on a brand new home. Builder wouldn't cover it because it was just outside of the warranty. I think it was 4-5 years. Top layer was coming off very similar. But even that took longer to deteriorate than this!

Funny thing, my home has a large concrete patio at the rear between the home and detached garage. It'll be 46 years old this year. No deteriorating minus a couple of cracks from settling I suppose. No crumbling, either. All of the surrounding sidewalks are pristine.

My driveway has some issues, it is very pitted especially closer towards the street. But it's not crumbling. The driveway will probably be 45 years old this year as the garage was built one year after the home according to the records (1974 vs. 1973.)


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

ConcreteLady said:


> I'm curious if this sort of thing is more common because of the source of concrete or who actually laid it... I would obviously prefer to avoid companies who sell cheap and cracking concrete if thats the case!
> -Concrete Lady


Thought you'd be a pro by your username!

Usually a problem with the supply mix might happen 1in10, if that. And it would probably be from delay in pouring and the corresponding weather, or some miscommunication from the sub on admixtures he wanted. There would be a record of the mix though.

The typical problem is with the sub. Weather is the biggest, but sub-base, install technique (like vibrating, reinforcement location, joints) and such can cause problems. However good subs know how to counter/supervise these. Sometimes they take risks on weather or admixtures and lose.

You're close enough to the big city where there should be plenty of pros who can evaluate this (non-contractors), and lawyers who specifically deal with construction lawsuits.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

3onthetree said:


> Thought you'd be a pro by your username!
> 
> Usually a problem with the supply mix might happen 1in10, if that. And it would probably be from delay in pouring and the corresponding weather, or some miscommunication from the sub on admixtures he wanted. There would be a record of the mix though.
> 
> ...


Suburban IL, you're probably not too far away.


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## DZthompsen (Feb 7, 2019)

Looks the it was over worked to me (delamination) the very fine broom finish and the visible sand on top tells me that the fell behind and withers floated it to much or added to much water. Most of the time, these problems are contained. The only way you’d get scaling everywhere is if it gets rained on and/ or the bleed water or trapped


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Any thoughts on garage floor cracks? Looks to me that there is a crack running the entire length of the garage floor as well. This pour was done much earlier and at a different time than the driveway.

Can't anything be brand new and not crack for at least 5-10 years? The garage floor isn't even exposed to the elements. What gives!?!?


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

BlaineBug said:


> Any thoughts on garage floor cracks? Looks to me that there is a crack running the entire length of the garage floor as well. This pour was done much earlier and at a different time than the driveway.
> 
> Can't anything be brand new and not crack for at least 5-10 years? The garage floor isn't even exposed to the elements. What gives!?!?


Actually, as long as it's poured on a good base concrete is more likely to crack in the 1st year or 2 than any other time in its life. Obviously the exception is when the base isn't prepared correctly.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Is non-cracking concrete a pipe dream, in other words?


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Concrete cracking is just a matter of when, not if.


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Concrete cracking is just a matter of when, not if.


The majority of the sidewalks surrounding my 46 year old home are not cracked, nor is the slab floors in my basement and in my family room.

However, two of my patios squares are cracked and so is my garage slab.

So in this case the majority of the nearly 50 year old concrete is un-cracked!

I also live in northwest Indiana, Chicagoland, with plenty of deep freezes throughout this time period!


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

BlaineBug said:


> Is non-cracking concrete a pipe dream, in other words?


Not at all it's poured every day, but there are some rules that need to be followed, as an example the next time your in a Home Depot or Lowes, especially in the building department, look at the floors and the tremendous amount of weight they carry, none of them i've seen have cracks and there's a reason, and i'd be willing to bet the rules were not followed at your fathers house.

Here's a link to how it should be done.

https://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete-subgrades-subbases/


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## BlaineBug (Feb 9, 2016)

Canarywood1 said:


> Not at all it's poured every day, but there are some rules that need to be followed, as an example the next time your in a Home Depot or Lowes, especially in the building department, look at the floors and the tremendous amount of weight they carry, none of them i've seen have cracks and there's a reason, and i'd be willing to bet the rules were not followed at your fathers house.
> 
> Here's a link to how it should be done.
> 
> https://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete-subgrades-subbases/


You're not kidding about that one. I used to work in a warehouse that was previously an ambulance depot. Forklift never cracked the floor, neither did all of those ambulances. Smooth as can be, no sparring or crumbling either.

Seems that the job can be done right if the stakes are high enough!


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