# When do people use 15# paper



## johnny331 (May 29, 2007)

the few roofers i've talked to say they always use 30# after being burned by using the 15# once in the past. you might even need it to validate the shingle's 20-30year warranty

I imagine there isn't much price difference... and is there really such a thing as over-kill, especially when it's your own roof (is it?)

you don't want to be tearing up the thin stuff as you walk around too...


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I prefer 30#, but most recomendations are for a 15# due to less wrinkling potential.

I tarp up our roofs every night, so moisture infiltration and the resultant drying out and wrinkling never becomes an issue.

Steeper roofs, a 30# is the recommended choice.

These are the manufacturers and NRCA "Recommendations", not requirements. I prefer to always exceed the "Minimum" requirements mandated in just about every phase of the roof possible.

A flat and tightly installed double layer of 15# is probably better than a single layer of 30#, but at what point do you create the gold plated pig, which will not be cost effective and be able to sell?

Ed


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I prefer 30#, but most recomendations are for a 15# due to less wrinkling potential.
> 
> I tarp up our roofs every night, so moisture infiltration and the resultant drying out and wrinkling never becomes an issue.
> 
> ...



What about double underlayment 30# on 4/12 slope? Is this too much? I'm willing to pay for the material. I just don't want any adverse effects.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

On a 4/12 pitch, that would be a good idea.

A better idea, as long as 100 % continuous soffit intake and 100 % ridge exhaust ventilation specifications are followed, would be to do a 100 % coverage with Grace Ice and Water Shield protective underlayment.

If you want to know the correct amount ov intake and exhaust ventilation you need, provide the exact measurements of the house and the amount of soffit overhang extending past the walls.

The shadow cast down from the outline of the entire roof structure, would be called its "Footprint". That would be the most helpful for the correct answer.

Ed


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Full coverage of ice and water shield is standard for slopes 4 in 12 to 2 in 12. under that is considerd flat.
double felt is a waste of time and effort.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

RooferJim said:


> Full coverage of ice and water shield is standard for slopes 4 in 12 to 2 in 12. under that is considerd flat.
> double felt is a waste of time and effort.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


My states codes say to use double underlayment for 2 in 12 up to 4 in 12. You can use single underlayment for 4 in 12. Why do you think it is a waste of time? Is ice and water shield only used for areas that have snow/ice?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Your state is following the OLD NRCA guidelines. Recent additions more properly address utilizing Ice and Water Shield for the pitces between 2/12 and 4/12.

Ed


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Massachusetts had that in there old codes also. Once upon a time children they did not have things like I&W or even nail guns believe it or not. Your state needs to update.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

I haven't see anybody use ice and water shield in my area. Is this stuff expensive? Do you just use it for the first run then use felt? There is no ice or snow in my location. It will cost me about $120 extra to lay down two layers of felt. Would I just be throwing my money away?


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Not at all. its quicker on labor than two ply felt and better because it seals around the fasteners like a gasket. It cost a little more on material but not much more, and you will save on labor and better quality. no brainer really.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

RooferJim said:


> Not at all. its quicker on labor than two ply felt and better because it seals around the fasteners like a gasket. It cost a little more on material but not much more, and you will save on labor and better quality. no brainer really.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com



It does sound interesting. I was a referring to two ply felt being a waste of money. Would this be a waste of money compared to just using a single layer? The cost difference between 2 layers would be $120. In total I would be buying 12 rolls of 30# for double felt. How much would it cost for 22 to 25 squares of ice and water shield? Any special codes involved with this stuff or is it considered felt (follow same application procedures)?


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Well its a little different. it has an adheasive on the back and sticks. that is what makes it good. a roofer can put it down just as easy as felt but maybee not so with a DIY or some carpenters. it is more money but its worth it. I buy the stuff by the pallett so Im sure you would pay a bit more. You best bet is to check out a roll at a suppy house. Its like buying insurance on your roof.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

RooferJim said:


> Well its a little different. it has an adheasive on the back and sticks. that is what makes it good. a roofer can put it down just as easy as felt but maybee not so with a DIY or some carpenters. it is more money but its worth it. I buy the stuff by the pallett so Im sure you would pay a bit more. You best bet is to check out a roll at a suppy house. Its like buying insurance on your roof.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


 My brother is a roofer in the Seattle area where it rains all the time and they put that stuff down and then leave for months to do other jobs then come back and roofs later. They are so busy he told me that is the norm and he has never had a problem. We are talking commercial buildings with hundreds of squares for one job. The stuff really works.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

I am planning on using double underlayment, but I do not want wrinkles. I will be applying the shingles right after the underlayment is applied. Will I have problems later with double 30# wrinkling and buckling the shingles? I can use 15# if this will be a problem. I am currently looking into gracie ice and water, but it seems like it is 5 times the cost of 30#.


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Forget Grace, You should be able to get Certainteed wintergaurd for $40. a two square roll. or $20. a square and goes down easier than Grace does. Shop around. Its way batter than paper.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## hammerhed (Jun 13, 2007)

*Argh!! remind me not to use his company!!!*

Unless somebody has a good excuse, like Katrina hit, no contractor who is worth a dime is going to start a job, expose the roof deck, and leave for months.. Even if they use deck armor. Ice and Water, in the GAF Weatherwatch brand, doesn't allow unlimited exposure. I think it is between 30 and 60 days max.


Iquote=warnerww;48692]My brother is a roofer in the Seattle area where it rains all the time and they put that stuff down and then leave for months to do other jobs then come back and roofs later. They are so busy he told me that is the norm and he has never had a problem. We are talking commercial buildings with hundreds of squares for one job. The stuff really works.[/quote]


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

That is they way it is. These guys do not even advertise. Their is no way to get a hold of them other than word of mouth. They are not in the yellow pages they do not advertise at all. They are considered the best of the best. They will not even look at hiring you unless you have been on the roof for at least 10 years. These guys know their stuff and get paid for it. They work hard but the actually get 4 days paid vacation which if you are a roofer you Know how rare that is. At least that is rare in my experience. Most construction people work and get paid or do not work and do not get paid.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

OK

I will look into other products. I also want to give my local building inspector a call before using it. I just don't want any surprises. How about using double 30# paper? This stuff is pretty thick. Do you think it has the possibility of pushing up the shingles?


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Malcom forget the paper man, there is a better way. youll thank us latter espeacialy if its a low pitch.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

The pitch is 4 in 12. I guess that would be considered a low pitch. I am definitely going to use ice and water in the valleys and where I think a leak may occur. I'm just want to explore my options. I'll get some prices on other ice and water products today. The only thing that appears to be a turn off to 100 percent ice and water is condensation issues/ breathing issues. I am planning on running a ridge vent across the entire roof with 100 percent soffits, so I'm guessing ventilation will not be an issue. Another issue is removing the ice and water for the next replacement. I know that it is impossible to remove. I don't know how the building inspector will handle the situation when a reroof is necessary in 20 years. Sheathing inspections are required in my area.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

If it is installed correctly, does not leak, and has 100 % balanced intake and exhaust ventilation as you stated, unless the decking is already starting to show signs of delamination and feel crunchy to walk on, 20 years from now, it will still be in good shape. 

Put the felt paper over the top of the Ice and Water Shield if you are concerned about the shingle sticking to it during the next tear-off 20 + years down the road.

Ed


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Wow! Grace is expensive.  The cheapest I have found is $90 for two squares and $63 for a one square package. It cost just as much as a square of 30 year architectural shingles. I'll check other brands, but I can't justify spending that much.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Rooferj

You are getting a really good deal on winterguard. I just got a quote for $65 for 2 squares.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

RooferJim,

Do you get it right from the Cetainteed wharehouse for that price?

That seems incredibly inexpensive.

Regarding I & W shield. Which one do you guys prefer. I have always been a Grace Vycor Plus user, but the cost runs between $ 82.00 to $ 91.00 per 67.667 foot roll from 2 of my suppliers, being only 2 squares. 

P.S. I charge $ 3.00 per lineal foot or $ 1.00 per square foot for it. Is that in your guys ballpark. It doesn't seem too expensive in my opinion, but I am getting way undercut this year, by everybody!!!

Too many illegal subcontractors flooding the market-place in the Chicago area going completely unchecked.

Ed


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

At $45 a square ($90 for two square roll). I'm looking at $1080 to do the whole house. That is a significant cost. I just can't see myself spending that money for a 4 in 12 slope roof. If it was 3 in 12, I would probably go for it. That stuff is expensive. Grace must be making a killing on that stuff. Winterguard will run me $780. A double layer of 30# runs at $240. If I could get the price around $500 to $600, I would probably jump on it. Any other brands that I can check the prices on.


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Check with a roofing wholesaler not a lumber yard. Try Brado or ABC. other brands are Carlile, JM, GAF,IKO,Henry EaveGuard and many more. call around some suppliers and tell them you want a generic I&W. its still way better than paper.


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## hammerhed (Jun 13, 2007)

*deck armour, ice and water, 30# felt*

I am going to use two rows of IW from the eaves.. Then 3o# felt up to the peak where I will use IW again because I am going to put in ridge vents. Any particular brand of vent tickle your fancy?? I used the Cobra mesh once, it seems ok. Would like a plastic prouct for straight lines. But, the one used on my garage lets little tree particulates in.. No mesh screen, just some hoaky diverters. 

What has been the report on the GAF Deck Armour breathable membrane?






RooferJim said:


> Check with a roofing wholesaler not a lumber yard. Try Brado or ABC. other brands are Carlile, JM, GAF,IKO,Henry EaveGuard and many more. call around some suppliers and tell them you want a generic I&W. its still way better than paper.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

RooferJim said:


> Check with a roofing wholesaler not a lumber yard. Try Brado or ABC. other brands are Carlile, JM, GAF,IKO,Henry EaveGuard and many more. call around some suppliers and tell them you want a generic I&W. its still way better than paper.


Man, I want to use this stuff bad, but I can't get it in my budget. It must be nice to buy in bulk and get the discount. I went to ABC Supply and was quoted $50 for GAF 1 1/2 squares. Basically, it is the same price as Certainteed per square. I couldn't remember the other names you mentioned and he didn't know of any others off the top of his head. I'll go back tomorrow when it isn't busy and ask him to find the cheapest ice and water they stock. As for now, my plans are to cover the leak prone areas with certainteeds brand. I still will have to run felt though . I'm wondering if ice and water will eventually replace felt and be code. I have been reading about it and it does sound like a great product. The price will definitely go down if it is the status quo underlayment. Since I might be looking at running felt. Which one of these would you use on a 4/12 roof. 

1. Single layer of 30# with the normal 2 in overlap.
2. double layer of 15# with 19" overlap.
3. double layer of 30# with 19" overlap.

I'm going to try Bradco.


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Bradco Supply generally has a way better price than ABC or Harvey, Beacan Sales has great prices as well if there in your area. best bet is to call tham on the phone and get some quotes and some info. In my area all 4in 12 roofs are done full I&W because they are considerd to be low slope. and the lower the slope the more likley a problem.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

I decided to run ice and water all along the eves as well. There is a lot of damage where the gutters were. I'm guessing the gutters got backed up and ruined some fascia and sheathing. I bought certainteed brand "sand." It is the granulated version. Is this the one you use? The instructions say to install it over the drip edge, so I don't know if it will do anything to protect against the gutters. What are your thoughts?


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

There instructions are wrong. you overhang the facia then apply a 3/4"x 3/4" red cedar ground as a termination. then apply the drip edge over that. This is a Ice dam leak prevention detail and protects the vunerable joint at the top of the facia and bottom of the roof sheathing. It is optional to also strip in the flange of the drip edge with a 6" strip of I&W but not essential. Certainteed still has the old generic ARMA spec detail that is out dated. Common sence and never underestimate the ingenuity of a rain drop.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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