# Does this insulation appear to contain asbestos?



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

It likely has a pretty good chance but I would just put on a mask and deal with it.


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

Nealtw; said:


> It likely has a pretty good chance but I would just put on a mask and deal with it.



Tyvek suit required? Wet it down with a garden sprayer?

Definitely using a mask.



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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

jaketrades said:


> Tyvek suit required? Wet it down with a garden sprayer?
> 
> Definitely using a mask.
> 
> ...


 Don't forget the plastic bag over you head tied tightly around you neck.:devil3:


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

You had another post about the bricked in wall where the finish was a drywall? So probably there was a remodel after the 1920. In 1920, can't be 100% sure, but I don't think they used insulation, except horsehair or such that I read about?
Try to estimate about when that remodel was done. Then look at the insulation and try to guess what it's made of. Vermicultes were known for asbestos, recent discussion. Is it glass fiber or paper fiber? Cotton? Search history. Some kind of fire proofing was added by the industry. But I forget if the additive was asbestos or borex?


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

carpdad; said:


> You had another post about the bricked in wall where the finish was a drywall? So probably there was a remodel after the 1920. In 1920, can't be 100% sure, but I don't think they used insulation, except horsehair or such that I read about?
> Try to estimate about when that remodel was done. Then look at the insulation and try to guess what it's made of. Vermicultes were known for asbestos, recent discussion. Is it glass fiber or paper fiber? Cotton? Search history. Some kind of fire proofing was added by the industry. But I forget if the additive was asbestos or borex?


The brick wall covered with sheetrock was my condo. This is another property. 

From my experience in this property the previous owners never removed anything. They just stacked on top. Floors, walls, ceiling. So this insulation was buried under plaster and lathe. 

The "insulation" is also along the top of the brick party wall. See pic. Those are the only two locations I found the "insulation" In one roof joist bay (out of like 50). And along the party wall.

It looks like a cotton fiber. But I haven't gotten too close to it yet.

Now you got me thinking.... if this was insulation, why wouldn't they put it in the front and the back of the building where the window exposure is? Maybe it's something else.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Mineral wool is what it sounds like, it's been around since the 1890s, made from the slag from a steel foundry.


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## jaketrades (Mar 2, 2017)

Here’s the insulation on the party walls near the roof line.











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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

Yes, that would definitely be suspect asbestos containing material, and worth having it tested before you mess with it. 

Given it's extremely fragile condition, even the testing is sketchy, and should probably be done professionally. If a piece of that pancakes on the floor, and you have a potentially large fiber release.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

jaketrades said:


> Here’s the insulation on the party walls near the roof line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Perhaps more of a fire stop, is that the height of the brick


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Wood fiber board 1/2" thick has been around since before 1920, used for insulation and could only get some cross contamination later because the same machinery was used for asbestos production too.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

jaketrades said:


> Now you got me thinking.... if this was insulation, why wouldn't they put it in the front and the back of the building where the window exposure is? Maybe it's something else.


Fire barrier.

Oops....Sorry Neal. Didn't see yours.


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## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> Yes, that would definitely be suspect asbestos containing material, and worth having it tested before you mess with it.
> 
> Given it's extremely fragile condition, even the testing is sketchy, and should probably be done professionally. If a piece of that pancakes on the floor, and you have a potentially large fiber release.


Yes.
I quite agree.
However "Don't Panic".
Wear a mask, wet the offending substance, bag it appropriately in plastic bags and dispose of it appropriately.

Of course you can get it tested.
If you attempt to burn a small sample outside in the open air (with an accelerant) and it doesn't burn completely away, you could be fairly certain that the remainder *is* asbestos! (Dispose of the residue.)

It is a pity that 
"The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has no general ban on the use of asbestos. However, asbestos was one of the first hazardous air pollutants regulated under Section 112 of the Clean Air Act of 1970, and many applications have been forbidden by the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA)".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos_and_the_law_(United_States)

Not to negate the dangers of asbestos, health problems seem to have been *MAINLY* associated with those who have had* continued* exposure to the airborne asbestos fibres over much of their working life.
This is not to say that there *could* not be health cases caused by a "one off" contamination.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

FrodoOne said:


> If you attempt to burn a small sample outside in the open air (with an accelerant) and it doesn't burn completely away, you could be fairly certain that the remainder *is* asbestos! (Dispose of the residue.)


That is NOT how you test for asbestos, nor handle ACM material.


FrodoOne said:


> However "Don't Panic".
> Wear a mask, wet the offending substance, bag it appropriately in plastic bags and dispose of it appropriately.


This is extremely bad advise. Just wetting the material is enough to cause it to break off and fall to the floor.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

jaketrades said:


> It’s hanging.....


Ahhh. I just realized that you're the same guy that asked about the asbestos in his boiler room a few months ago. :vs_whistle:


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## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> That is NOT how you test for asbestos, nor handle ACM material.
> 
> This is extremely bad advise. Just wetting the material is enough to cause it to break off and fall to the floor.


I did not say how to test for asbestos.
I did say how to test for an_* indication*_ that it *might* be asbestos. What was implied was if there was no residue, it *probably* would not be asbestos.

I am sorry that I did not state that more explicitly.

"If you attempt to burn a small sample outside in the open air (with an accelerant) and it doesn't burn completely away, you could be fairly certain that the remainder is asbestos! (Dispose of the residue.)"

If the material is wet and "falls to the floor", there should be no harm from asbestos particles in the air at that point and *time*, since wet particles of asbestos (or anything else) are unlikely to float in air.

However, any such material should be collected and disposed of appropriately ASAP.


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## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

Double post deleted.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

My take on wetting. Insulation is friable. Before it's completely soaked, it probably will fall before it's completely soaked from water weight. Also, wetting is just a part of the control. Wetting keeps from dry, dusty disintegration but does not guarantee complete dust free work. Least done should be to support the insulation (while protected and sealed) so the target material doesn't have far to fall.


Fire stop may take different kind of approach. If fiber board, how was it made? What is the binder? Binder may be water resistant, as well as years of grime. So if asbestos is suspected, either try to have the material tested, get the removal contractor or, again, study how it is done and start from the proper beginning.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

As a painter, I once worked for an inspector who was quite an expert on asbestos. From what I recall, he stated that there are 5 different kinds of asbestos and 4 of them are not harmful. That 5th one can be deadly especially if you're around it day after day. So, like the lead scare, the asbestos scare, is a bit overblown. Not saying it's not dangerous to be around and when it gets air borne, look out, but, with some proper precautions it's not something to lose sleep over if exposure is limited. As for remediating it, I would say the professional route is the way to go. I know that it's very expensive, but, I would think it would ensure a safe environment.

https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/asb-when


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Okay, ignore most of what I posted above. This article says there are SIX types of asbestos and most, if not all, look to be deadly. I know "back in the day" I painted many houses that were sheathed in asbestos siding. There was very little info available about how dangerous it could be, but, I do remember WETTING the siding if asbestos was present to keep the fibers from getting airborne. I'm sure that only limited my exposure and sure didn't eliminate it altogether. Anyway, an interesting topic to be sure and I would say asbestos is far more dangerous than exposure to lead that is in a lot of old paints.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/cancer/types-of-cancer/mesothelioma/asbestos-cancer/types-of-asbestos


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

They all work slowly. I read somewhere that lead (drinking mugs they made) was how the roman civilization fell.:smile: Wine dissolved the metal bit by bit. BTW I take that with lots of grains of salt.:smile:


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## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

I do not think that Romans actually used drinking vessels made entirely of lead. 
However, there is Pewter, which is traditionally composed of 85–99% tin, mixed with copper, antimony, bismuth, and sometimes silver or lead, although the use of lead is less common today. 
(Antimony and bismuth also are not too good for ones health!)

Roman water pipes were made of lead (Pumbium- hence the name of the trade of "Plumber".)

The following reference 
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/04/scienceshot-did-lead-poisoning-bring-down-ancient-rome
indicates
"While the lead contamination was measurable, the team says the levels were unlikely high enough to be harmful, ruling out tap water as a major culprit in Rome's demise. "


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