# Junction box in stud wall behind drywall?



## bluemoonshine (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm trying to splice 12 gauge wire, can I use the liquid insulation glue they sell instead of a juction box? or If I have to use a junction box in the stud wall behind the drywall, If I just make sure the wirenuts are tight I shouldn't ever have to access it again right? I guess I could put it in the attic If I really have to.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

All junction boxes must remain permanently accessible. They cannot be buried.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Using things like _"Liquid insulation glue"_ is one reason why circuits fail, and fires develop from jack-legged wiring. :furious:

Do NOT attempt such nonsense. ANY splices MUST be left accessible, so later on, when it fails, an electrician will be able to trace it down and repair it properly.


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## bluemoonshine (Mar 20, 2011)

I was kinda thinking that  guess ill try crawl in the tiny attic.


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## RST (Jul 19, 2009)

You could put a receptacle in the box. Might look funny depending on how high it is though.

I believe you could place a picture over the junction box cover to help hide it. Someone could simply remove the picture to access it.

Maybe you could run new wire back to the previous outlet?

RST


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

They actually manufacture splice blocks that can be buried behind the wall. You may have to do a search on here, unless kbsparky can post brand.


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## bluemoonshine (Mar 20, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> They actually manufacture splice blocks that can be buried behind the wall. You may have to do a search on here, unless kbsparky can post brand.


 where? everywhere I search it says ALL splices must remain accessable.

do wirenut connections actually ever fail?


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## bluemoonshine (Mar 20, 2011)

Im splicing NM-B to UF cable anyway (cuz i have a bunch) so I don't think a splice block would work so well


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## Saturday Cowboy (Nov 29, 2009)

yes wirenuts fail all the time.

I have never heard of any product that will allow you to bury a splice

you know that you could go all the way with UF right?


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## SubSailor (Feb 25, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> They actually manufacture splice blocks that can be buried behind the wall. You may have to do a search on here, unless kbsparky can post brand.



I've seen them used on this old house on a huge modular house, they looked like the plug on a trailer for the lights.


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## Saturday Cowboy (Nov 29, 2009)

If what you are talking about is what i think it is then i have done quite a bit of work with them. I spent 5 years in the mobile home industry. And they were notorious for problems, tho they were a favorite of the manufactures. They were installed under the home so they were accessible. I have not read the manufactures specs but if you could show me that the are allowed to be hidden then I would be convinced.


This old house is nothing but a hack!!


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> They actually manufacture splice blocks that can be buried behind the wall. You may have to do a search on here, unless kbsparky can post brand.


You mean this product by Tyco/Raychem?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I have see them before but very limited use and myself I have really no use for those gimzos at all.

Just stay with the true and proven methold is a junction box and proper wirenuts and that will work good.

Merci.
Marc


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## NitrNate (May 27, 2010)

you'd think that after all these years, SOMEONE would have invented an NEC compliant splicing mechanism for in the wall burial and made millions. the whole idea of having to re-run a bunch of wire through walls and drywall as a result of a single splice is ridiculous. no wonder there is so much shoddy electrical behind so many walls.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

NitroNate said:


> you'd think that after all these years, SOMEONE would have invented an NEC compliant splicing mechanism for in the wall burial and made millions. the whole idea of having to re-run a bunch of wire through walls and drywall as a result of a single splice is ridiculous. no wonder there is so much shoddy electrical behind so many walls.


I know there were couple manufacters do make them and there is only one I know of made that type of connector the last time I ran into I Just ditch them and use the proper junction box due the the last one I have see it got overheated and burnted the connection a bit.

Really the whole key thing is plan it right and route the cable or conductors in proper way to reduce the numbers of splices that one reason why I do it in proper way.

The last house in France I found over 30 hidden junction boxes took me a a bit to get all clear up { there were few major code volitatons show up as well }

Merci.
Marc


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## bluemoonshine (Mar 20, 2011)

I went to home depot and bought that tyco romex slice and tap kit, I get home opened the package and took a good look at how it works and the conductors were very small and thin just not well made It looks like, I was suprised it's UL listed lol, it's a pos imo so I returned it for the 7$ they might work fine in an attic that's easily accessable. 


I just ended up using a junction box, It's my house so I know where in the drywall it is:laughing: I twisted the wires real tight and filled the wirenuts with that black no-oxide grease that they use alot on aluminum wire and screwed them on tight, I don't think I could of done any better and I think it'll last forever  

The dielectric grease shouldn't hurt anything right? Im not sure if guys normally use it on copper.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

So...you buried the junction box ??


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

cmon guys, this dude is full of sh**...

this is an obvious troll attempt.


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## kable (Apr 10, 2012)

I just built a house and 'burried' three junction boxes in a bathroom. What happened was that the arrangement of the room changed quite a bit and I was not going to have three exposed junction boxes looking ugly. Nor was I going to rip out wiring behind finished drywall through the rest of the house back to the panel.

I understand why not to burry a junction box, people not splicing properly, but if it is done properly there will never be a problem.

I dare anyone to explain how a tightly twisted properly capped and enclosed splice will ever fail.... it will not.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

kable said:


> I just built a house and 'burried' three junction boxes in a bathroom. What happened was that the arrangement of the room changed quite a bit and I was not going to have three exposed junction boxes looking ugly. Nor was I going to rip out wiring behind finished drywall through the rest of the house back to the panel.
> 
> I understand why not to burry a junction box, people not splicing properly, but if it is done properly there will never be a problem.
> 
> I dare anyone to explain how a tightly twisted properly capped and enclosed splice will ever fail.... it will not.


It really doesn't matter that you think the splice should never fail. It can fail. The rules say not to bury a junction box in the wall PERIOD. 

I am so glad that you feel the need to flaunt your total disregard for both the safety standards, any future occupants of your house or the many dedicated professionals that give advice here to prevent just the sort of thing you feel so proud of. :furious:


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

i need to move two-gang switch from one side of a finished stairwell to the other, as part of my basement finishing project. several wires in there and it just isn't feasible to do anything other than cut the conductors in the unfinished basement portion and extend them to the new switch location (opening up the stairwell wall so the existing switch can't stay where it is). i'm going to put a j-box in the ceiling, splice the existing conductors with new cable to the new switch location, and cover with a blank, white box cover. i wouldn't think to do it any other way. aesthetically, most people won't even see it unless i point it out to them and i know i will be able to access if it when i need to.


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## kable (Apr 10, 2012)

I was not advising anyone to do it, but the reason that it is not allowed by code is that alot of people are sloppy and would not do it properly. Some rules are there because we have to protect everyone from the idiots of the world. 

Once again a properly spliced wire is as safe as a straight run if done properly. Single wire in / single wire out of a octogon box twisted and nuted will never fail.

But yes since the world is full of people that do not know what they are doing, it should continue to be not allowed.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

It doesn't matter how good you are at making up your splices with wire nuts. Sometimes they fail.


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

kable said:


> I was not advising anyone to do it, but the reason that it is not allowed by code is that alot of people are sloppy and would not do it properly. Some rules are there because we have to protect everyone from the idiots of the world.
> 
> Once again a properly spliced wire is as safe as a straight run if done properly. Single wire in / single wire out of a octogon box twisted and nuted will never fail.
> 
> But yes since the world is full of people that do not know what they are doing, it should continue to be not allowed.


you can't say it will 'never' fail. what if you get a bad nut from the manufacturer? it may look perfectly fine but fail after time.

and look it places like chicago where homeowners can't even do their own electrical work. only licensed electricians can do the work yet they are bound by the same NEC rules as joe homeowner. it isn't like there are two sets of codes, one for the layman and one for the pros.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Just to prove this poster wrong.

If you are doing your electrical you are probably doing the plumbing too. A joint isn't soldered completely leaving a little leak...right onto your, perfectly spliced JBox...wires corrode or short out...there you go, there's your example.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

joed said:


> It doesn't matter how good you are at making up your splices with wire nuts. Sometimes they fail.


I'm curious ,
What if a nut did fail? 
What would the result be?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

This thread is going nowhere fast......

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DangerMouse said:


> This thread is going nowhere fast......
> 
> DM


Who made you Boss:jester::laughing:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

DM is right.
Even the hvac guys are coming over and commenting!:jester:
What is this site coming too?


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## FixitDragon (Feb 9, 2011)

At the risk of possibly feeding trolls, I will say I have personaly witnessed what happens when a wire nut fails. It was when I still lived with my mom, I was in bed getting ready to go to sleep and I noticed my fan and other electronics "brown out" Then come back, and sag again. I stepped out into the hall and the rest of the house was fine, just my room. Then I smelled something funny. I stepped outside to find the porch light outside smoking!! Shut off the circuit breaker. Investigation found a wirenut had come loose in the junction box, not completely off, but loose, which caused high resistance. Since my bedroom was downstream of the porch light, my room was browning out. The high resistance loose connection was in the process of starting a fire when I caught it. Note, this DID NOT trip the breaker. I thank the Lord I noticed what was going on before it turned into a fire.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

sublime2 said:


> I'm curious ,
> What if a nut did fail?
> What would the result be?


Depends which wire.
It could result in an open neutral, or and open hot wire.
You then have to tear open the walls to find the missing connection, or run a new circuit.

If it is a higher current circuit, then the connections could arc, and start a fire.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Depends which wire.
> It could result in an open neutral, or and open hot wire.
> You then have to tear open the walls to find the missing connection, or run a new circuit.
> 
> If it is a higher current circuit, then the connections could arc, and start a fire.


Thanks! 
Now others that come through this thread will have a better understanding of the issues that can arise from burying junction boxes.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

If you are going to bury a junction box, at the very least, leave a note or some kind of indication near/on/in an upstream or downstream junction box as to where this hidden junction box is. At least that way if someone comes along and needs to get to it, they know exactly where they need to punch a hole in the drywall.

Though, this is illegal, The right way would have been to make it accessible and just put a blank cover. You can then paint it over. Depending where it is, you could even put a fake hvac vent. If it's high, just hang a picture. 

There are two main issues with hiding junction boxes:

1) troubleshooting. When you see wires entering a box, you should be able to assume they go directly to the next box, and that there's no hidden box in the middle. 

2) As mentioned above, if a wire nut fails and starts to arc or what not. Good luck trying to find where this is happening. At least if it's a visible junction box you'll see smoke or something or even hear it. Given they are in metal most of the time the fire will be contained, but you can't count on that. They have holes, it could spill out into saw dust from a drilled hole in the studs or something.


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

jbfan said:


> Depends which wire.
> It could result in an open neutral, or and open hot wire.
> You then have to tear open the walls to find the missing connection, or run a new circuit.
> 
> If it is a higher current circuit, then the connections could arc, and start a fire.


at worst, a fire.

at best, circuit stops working and broken connection can't be accessed without ripping open walls.

in either case, seems like a pain just to avoid a box.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Who made you Boss:jester::laughing:


I am my own boss. Wanna fight about it?

(btw, welcome back...) 

DM


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

sublime2 said:


> Thanks!
> Now others that come through this thread will have a better understanding of the issues that can arise from burying junction boxes.


I see at least some here have the common sense to not give bad advice or made bad examples of themselves, unlike some new members. 

The old "_I know it's not code, but I did it anyway_" BS mentality will only serve to cause others to have this same ill-fated mentality.
Regardless if you do the wrong thing, it is flat out stupid to go to a public forum and try to justify it. Just keep it to yourself. 

I know lots of folks who can "safely" go 100mph on the highway, but it is pretty dumb to go around and publicly flaunt it.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> At least some here have the common sense to not give bad advice or made bad examples of themselves, unlike some new members.
> 
> The old "_I know it's not code, but I did it anyway_" BS mentality will only serve to cause others to have this same ill-fated mentality.
> Regardless if you do the wrong thing, it is flat out stupid to go to a public forum and try to justify it. Just keep it to yourself.
> ...


..........


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I WAS going to fire off a pretty inflammatory reply, but I see the confusion in reading my reply. 

I was AGREEING with you. What I mean was I agree with your reply to JBfan's post in reply to the newbie that is trying to justify his ill fated ways. (ie: posts #19 & 22)
Sorry if that was not clear.
You might be a newbie time wise but with almost 300 posts I personally don't consider you one.

I will admit, the "pops" thing really hurt.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

My sincere apology! 
Had some issues lately and I thought it was directed at me.
Again, I apologise!


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## bryan1282 (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL at this whole thread......if you wont take the pros advice, take a diy'ers advice and from someone that found 6 buried boxes in a family room gut and pounded a hammer through the drywall into a buried j-box with no cover and exposed live wires. it was in an insane location i could have never thought there would be a box buried. DONT BURY ELECTRICAL BOXES PLEASE! i want to punch the ass that did this in my house.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

I have painted metal junction box covers to match a wall before.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

bryan1282 said:


> i want to punch the ass that did this in my house.


This is the bottom line for me. I have had to chase down more than my share of buried boxes. 
If anything, think about the next guy. Burying boxes is *extremely* selfish.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

No wire connection can be guaranteed forever.:furious:

Found a bunch of twisted and nutted splices hidden in junction boxes in a house I wired about ten years ago. Some looked really nice but you could tell they heated up. Ended up just tearing out all the wire I could and just running new some boxes you could see with a light but did not want to tear all the walls and ceilings apart. Ended up being easier to fish all new.


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## M3 Pete (May 10, 2011)

rrolleston said:


> I have painted metal junction box covers to match a wall before.


These ones will look a bit better than the metal ones. 

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100205413/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053 

They aren't great, but not horrible, and easily painted. And there is usually someplace low on a wall you can put a retrofit box where it's not so obvious.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100404072/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

There is absolutely no reason or excuse to ever bury a junction box. First of all it's against code and very dangerous for the reasons already listed.
If it's high on the wall, hang a picture over it, if it's low put a piece of furniture in front of it. If it's on the ceiling, either hang a light, install a pot light or just blank it over and paint it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of electrical fires each year simply because of stupid ill-advised methods....not to mention selfishness and of course laziness.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

bluemoonshine said:


> twisted the wires real tight and filled the wirenuts with that black no-oxide grease that they use alot on aluminum wire and screwed them on tight, I don't think I could of done any better and I think it'll last forever
> 
> The dielectric grease shouldn't hurt anything right? Im not sure if guys normally use it on copper.


This is ****ing harlaious!


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

kable said:


> But yes since the world is full of people that do not know what they are doing, it should continue to be not allowed.


You should change your name to K-Babal-on


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Ravenworks said:


> This is ****ing harlaious!


Don't forget, this thread was/is over a year old. Our new friend kable felt so strongly about this subject that he just had to reply.


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## kable (Apr 10, 2012)

FixitDragon said:


> At the risk of possibly feeding trolls, I will say I have personaly witnessed what happens when a wire nut fails. It was when I still lived with my mom, I was in bed getting ready to go to sleep and I noticed my fan and other electronics "brown out" Then come back, and sag again. I stepped out into the hall and the rest of the house was fine, just my room. Then I smelled something funny. I stepped outside to find the porch light outside smoking!! Shut off the circuit breaker. Investigation found a wirenut had come loose in the junction box, not completely off, but loose, which caused high resistance. Since my bedroom was downstream of the porch light, my room was browning out. The high resistance loose connection was in the process of starting a fire when I caught it. Note, this DID NOT trip the breaker. I thank the Lord I noticed what was going on before it turned into a fire.


this is an example of a incorrect splice, sounds like someone just jamed two wires into the nut and did not twist. Yes that will cause a fire, and not because the nut failed, but because it was done wrong.


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## M3 Pete (May 10, 2011)

kable said:


> this is an example of a incorrect splice, sounds like someone just jamed two wires into the nut and did not twist. Yes that will cause a fire, and not because the nut failed, but because it was done wrong.


I suppose that nobody, especially a pro, ever makes a mistake? Accidents never happen? Nobody ever deeply nicks a wire without noticing?

I suppose that no wire nuts are ever defective? And that defects never show up after the splice has gone through say, 10,000 or more cycles? And I suppose that no wires are ever defective?

The truth is, you have no idea what caused that loose connection. You are justifying your position based on unverified assumptions, and further assuming "it could never happen to me."

Yet they still fit cars with airbags and seatbelts. And they save lives every day.

[edit] Oh, lookee here, another thread about a failed connection in a buried box: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/buried-junction-box-139947/


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## kable (Apr 10, 2012)

That wire that broke in the other thread was more then likely almost snapped off when it was put in. Once again not done properly.

The real reason access is required under code is that people screw up. And yes alot of electricians do shatty work. But my point is that a proper spliced wire will outlast the house.


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## LooseSCruz (Feb 3, 2012)

kable said:


> That wire that broke in the other thread was more then likely almost snapped off when it was put in. Once again not done properly.


What was it that mama used to always say about assuming things....?:whistling2:


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

kable said:


> But my point is that a proper spliced wire will outlast the house.



I have seen properly torqued lugs fail. No matter what there is always a possibility that something can fail. Plastic gets brittle and any splice will have more resistance than a complete wire. Resistance means heating and cooling. Taking a chance spinning the wheel and see where it lands. But not for me I would have either ran a new wire or find another place to put the splice. Doing what you did is pure laziness


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

kable said:


> But my point is that a proper spliced wire will outlast the house.


Will you pick some "Power Ball" number combinations for me? I will give you 10% if you promise that I will win.
This is exactly what you are saying. You can pick 5 numbers along with one power ball number and be right. Be absolutely right.
Now, how do we get together and you pick the winning numbers for me?
Just a bit of advice. Drop out of this before they really make you look stupid. :whistling2:


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

kable,it's hard for you to understand GOOD advice from this site, because of your thinking.


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## sixspeed (Apr 11, 2012)

Is the junction box attached to retrofit recessed cans, like this one:









...considered to be concealed once the can is installed?

And even for "new construction" cans, like this:








How does one access the junction box once the ceiling is up?


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

sixspeed said:


> Is the junction box attached to retrofit recessed cans, like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no. there is slack in the wire when it is installed. the entire can and junction box can come out of the wall. boom, accessible.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

The rough in can...

The can comes out of the housing and the J-Box is accessible.


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## sixspeed (Apr 11, 2012)

So concealed only means permanently inaccessible, and not because the junction box itself does not have a face plate on an exposed structural surface.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

314.29 
Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.

Exception: Listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible for excavation.


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

Accessible means you can get to it without needing to make a repair afterwards. No where does it say it must be fun to access or easy to access or easy to find. Lol it just has to be possible. (you need orangutan fingers to work in a rough in can housing!!!)


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

He could leave the J boxes where they are, IF he cut s an access hole to get to them, and then covers the hole with a removeable panel.


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

k_buz said:


> 314.29
> Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.
> 
> Exception: Listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible for excavation.


 
For this discussion the key work is "Listed". Devices that are listed have to be installed per the manufacturers recomendation to be in code compliance. Junction boxes with covers are not listed to be hidden behind walls, ceilings, etc.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

kable said:


> this is an example of a incorrect splice, sounds like someone just jamed two wires into the nut and did not twist. Yes that will cause a fire, and not because the nut failed, but because it was done wrong.


This just goes to show what you do not know. Read the insturctions on wire nuts. Why do they include the phrase "no pre-twisting required"?


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

jocgrtgvds said:


> you'd believe that ideal in the end these years, somebody would have invented an NEC compliant splicing mechanism for within wall burial /quote]
> 
> Burying a junction box of any kind, line or low voltage is a very stupid idea. The whole idea of a junction box is accessability, a place to extend wiring and afford safe connections. It's absurd to think otherwise.


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## kable (Apr 10, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> This just goes to show what you do not know. Read the insturctions on wire nuts. Why do they include the phrase "no pre-twisting required"?


 
My guess is because alot of electricians are lazy and want it done quick. I would have a serious talk with an electrician if they were not to twist on my job site. 

I probably should not mention this but my other pet peves are installing the recepticles the wrong way upside down. I make anyone putting plugs on wrong flip it over on my job sites. 'ground to ground' and also those quick connect strain reliefs on the service panel argggg cheap shat.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

I don't believe you guys are even HAVING this conversation. They say that because PREtwisting is not required simply for the fact that the wirenuts get SCREWED down onto the wires and THAT action twists the wires together as it screws the wirenut down onto the wires! *sheesh* You do NOT just shove the wirenut onto two or more wires and expect that to hold without twisting, do you????? DO YOU?????????

This thread needs to die now.

BTW.... we ban trolls and troublemakers here as well as spammers. 
`nuff said.

DM


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Wait, so you're not suppose to shove the wires in the nut and then use electrical tape to make sure it does not fall off? :laughing:


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