# Vented Drip Edge?



## Ed the Roofer

jovo14 said:


> I am having a new roof put on. The house does not have a ridge vent so I want one put one on for proper ventalation. However, I do not have soffet vents and the gutters and soffets were redone only three years ago. I do have gable vents but I don't think they provide enough air circulation. I hate to pull down all that new materail to install sofet vents so the contractor suggested a vented drip edge.
> 
> My concerns:
> 1. Do the gutters have to come down to install this?
> 2. If ice forms (location=NY) in the gutter will it back up into the vent?
> 3. Do I need to make sure I have air circulation between the VDE and the ridge vent. I have two layers of insullation in the attic - do I need to install those foam channels for air circulation.
> 
> thanks:thumbsup:


The gable vents MUST get sealed and block off air flowage so as not to short circuit the proper ventilation flowage from the new soffit type vent.

1. The gutters probably do not have to come down for the installation of Vented Drip Edge Vent, from Air Vent Corp., but then the contractor only will have the option of cutting the 1" slot on the roof sheathing right at the eave edge instead of the alternative of cutting the top 1" slot into the existing fascia boards.

2. The crowning of ice freeze in the gutters in the winter time has always been of GREAT CONCERN to me when I installed Vented Drip Edge, so for my own pwace of mind and a much more aesthetic and functional ventilation alternative, I have been using the SMART VENT product manufactured by DCIproducts.com which has been a great relief for me due to the same concerns you expressed.

With the SMART VENT from DCI Products, you would not have to be concerned with the gutters being in the way or not. It is a very simple and functional product that has really taken the concern out of many im properly vented intake scenarios.

3. Which ever product you and your roofer decide to use, it is IMPERATIVE that the free flowage of air is able to travel from the new eave area or soffit/fascia board area fresh air intake vent product all the way up to the continuous ridge ventilation product. I would also ensure that the ridge vent contains an internal filter for weather protection and an external wind deflecting baffle for ensuring the ridge vent act as an exhaust vent rather than an intake vent due to blowing winds, especially when rain or powdery snow conditions are expected.

Ed


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## jovo14

Interesting product. Thanks for the tip! :thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer

Here is an image of the product installation procedure and a link to the web site for the Smart Vent by DCI Products, inc.

Ed



http://www.dciproducts.com/html/smartvent.htm


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## the roofing god

yeah,smart vent is definitely the weapon of choice,but you could remove the fascia cover,just remove panels where you want vents,put vented panels(same mfgr.)(and cut holes there)in those spots,recap the fascia ,and reinstall the gutter easy enough,I would prefer that if it was my house


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## FatAugie

Quick question about the smart vent product.

Could you use this on only a portion of the eave? In other words, with a 40 foot long ridge, if you have a continuous ridge vent flowing at 18 in per linear foot and you have the whole front of the roof with the Smart vent product flowing the same rate, what about the back of the roof? To keep the ventilation in balance, you'd need half in front and half in back, wouldn't you? Wouldn't that give you a bulge in the roof where the smart vent is installed?


Update: OK, I thought about it and answered my own question. I could run the smart vent the full length, but only cut slots in the decking to match the additional venting I require. Is that correct?


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## the roofing god

w/ridge vent the entire way,you should also cut the slot(for the smart vent) the entire way,except for nonheated overhang areas


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## FatAugie

Sorry, I should have included this little part which makes a difference....I have vented soffit panels already. 

I have 1100 sq ft of roof, and right now 244 sq inches of soffit vent. I want to move to about 600 or so at the soffits. The ridge vent is going to be added and should flow about that much given the length to be installed.

If I have slots cut the full length of the roof for the smart vent, then I'll have way more vent at the soffit than the ridge can handle. I want to maintain as close a balance as possible.

Instead of wrestling with the vented panels and trying to splice in more, the smart vent would make things MUCH easier for me.


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## Ed the Roofer

The intake ventilation aspect of the ventilation scenario is more imperative than the exhaust portion.

You can not have too much intake ventilation.

The exhaust can not function properly without some access point to draw the neww fresh air into the attic from, and if there is too little of the intake ventilation portals, then a portion of the exhaust ventilation system will act as the intake vent. Especially with exhaust vent products without an internal weather filter and an external wind deflecting baffle, which are more prone to allowing weather infiltration by mistake.

If you have 100 % vented soffit panels with all of the wood cut out above the panels and without the panels being clogged from dust, paint, cobwebs or any other type of particles, then your intake ratio probably will be sufficient. 

I choose to run the Smart Vent 100 % continuously on all eave edges to allow for the most amount of fresh air intake as possible.

Ed


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## FatAugie

I understand about sucking in weather and can see where that could be a problem. 

But, I have just a few questions that I think I'll post in a new thread since this one is drifting from vented drip edge.


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## mpking

*How about Retro-Fit?*

Just had my roof re-roofed about 4 months ago.

Long story short, I don't have any soffit vents. (Trust me that this was a long drawn out converstion, lasting several hours. It ended with" it wasn't in the contract, they weren't obligated to it", coupled with the mistaken belief that I did have soffit vents.)


So here I am, with a brand new roof, and a need to install soffit vents. It get's better, like this thread, I have no actual soffit on the outside of my house.

Which of the two products would you recommend? The smart-vent looks the way to go, but the Air-Vent looks easier to install.

Remember, I'm trying to retro-fit this to an existing roof, and I'm most likely going to have to do this myself. (Unless you thing a roofing contractor would do this for under 300 in labor (material I can supply)


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## Ed the Roofer

You would have a very very hard time finding anybody who would touch that job now that somebody else already just put a new roof on it.

They would think, WTF, why didn't you just call me out to do the job the right way in the first place, even if they would have provided the same intitial results as your first contractor did.

If it was not in the contract, the contractor did not have an obligation to do the additional work. 

If he advised you that you had sufficient intake ventilation to properly balance your entire ventilation system, then that would be a different twist on the story. He may even have some liability to you, if he put that in writing and now you find out that your home does not meet the minimum specifications from the shingle manufacturer to validate the warranty.

Don't feel alone on that point. Over 90 % of all roofing installations done, do not meet the manufacturers requirements.

You did not state, or I missed it, about how much exhaust ventilation you had installed on your roof. By adding the soffit ventilation with NO exhaust ventilation, if that be the case, you would not be gaining much, if anything.

Probably, in your case, although I personally favor the Smart Vent from DCI Products, Inc., I would think that you would have a better chance at adapting the Eave Drip Edge Vent from the Air Vent Corporation.

If you have gutters installed, they will have to be taken down first. You would have to use the alternate method of where to cut the slot for the intake ventilation to enter. It would have to be cut in at the top of the fascia board. 

Do you have an aluminum wrap on your existing fascia boards now? If so, that will make this task a little more difficult too, because you have to cut through the aluminum in addition to the wooden fasci board.

You maybe might get lucky, by not having to pry up the bottom course of shingle, but it depends on how the contractor installed his starter course of shingles. If he used upside down 3-tab shingles and nailed them high, you might be able to sneak the flange of the Eave Drip Edge Vent under the starter course and the actual field shingles. If he used the true 5" or 7" starter strip shingles, then the nail location will be much lower in all probability.

If you can, please mention the entire length of the eave edges on the sides that you intend to install the intake ventilation on.

Also, pictures would help, if you could post them.

The Eave Drip Edge Vent comes in 8 foot sections ov a heavier guage aluminum and you have to remember the end plugs, plus be a little skilled at using proper tin snips.

Ed


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## RooferJim

Smart vent is a good example of somone in an offices "neat idea" with no practical real world roofing application for common sence. In short to put the underlayment over it creates a void in warranty and can leak. I would also question how much it could possibly really vent. No one uses it in these parts for good reason. Vented drip edge is good without a gutter.


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## Ed the Roofer

Jim,

By now, I have probably over 100 jobs, if not more, with Smart Vent installed, with ZERO complaints.

I have never heard anything from the shingle manufacturers regarding the invalidation of the warranty by installing this product and I have asked Certainteed and Tamko so far.

What they have replied though, is that without the proper amount of total NFVA, that that may place the warranty in jeopordy.

So, I stand on the previous 5-6 years of practical real world experience working with this product. I have been installing this product and back it up or appropriate alternatives, wholeheartedly, unless some day in the future I find out otherwise, from my own practical experiences.

Ed


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## mpking

The concept of no-one else touching it is what I personally thought as well.

He did advise that there is proper intake ventilation. It however, is not documented in any writing, it's all verbal.

They company that installed it made a big deal how they install to Manufacturer's warranty. Actually, I felt very good about in the install till I started investigating adding insulation to my home, which made me investigate ventilation. No Day labors, the roof is to be inspected by GAF (the manufacturer of the shingle) for proper installation.

A ridge vent was installed at the time of shingling. There is an existing Gable Vents. (I know now from reading that if I actually had soffit vents, this would be a problem and would have to be sealed)

It's an architectural Shingle (Timberline 30). I have the delivery invoice from the building materials company. 
3 Bundles of "GAF Universal Starter 100' BDL) were delivered.

The roof is 40 foot long, and I would need to vent along the entire length, of both sides, front and back. There is a little peak in the front of the house to cover the front steps. I don't think this needs the vent based on my interpretation of the reading material.

It was pouring rain last night, so after work today, I'll get the camera out, and do a close inspection of existing conditions.


The skill with the proper tin snips I'm not worried about. I need 80 linear foot of drip edge, and it's sold in 100 linear foot boxes, so I'll have some to experiment with. (I have a place I can get Air-vent ProFlow)

Care to elaborate on the endplugs? Haven't found that mentioned yet.

I'll also scan up the contract. I did ask them about soffit Vents on the contract, and they notated it. One thought I have is I could go to the manufacturer, since they are warrantying the roof. Of course this could backfire, and they could just say the roof was installed improperly, and the warranty is void.

Of course, the contract just pissed me off more, since there is a check box for Vented Drip edge. If the stupid estimator had done his job correctly, he could have just sold me that at the time of purchase. It's not like I would have minded the extra 200 bucks. (I'm blaming the estimator because I did ask about soffit vents since I remember my parents had them installed when they had they're house reshingled. I didn't understand how important they were until the last few weeks.)

I do have these pictures of a different project, so it's as good as it gets till this afternoon. I think the Side view gives a good idea. The point is how high the gutter is, and how little of a soffit actually exists. (This is post new roof)

Back of house
Side view of house

I personally I have a very shaky chance of getting the roofer to redo it. I'm not really sure I want to go that route. I was orginally thinking just do it myself. 
However, if you feel that I could be moderately successful, I will pursue the roofing company. It's one advantage with going with a bigger roofing company, there are people higher up the food chain (other than the guy swinging the hammer)


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## RooferJim

I am going to see the GAF rep tommorow and will bring it up,but when you think about it if the ice and water shield is not adheared to the deck then you are not putting it down the way it is intended to work. Ice could back up right under it by the way it looks to me. I wonder what Grace would say if you show them this detail.


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## Ed the Roofer

Firstly, the end plugs are for the last pieces on the left and right sides, where the interior of the vent is exposed. Unless they have modified there design since 2003, which is the last time I installed the Vented Drip Edge product from Air Vent.

If the contractor wrote down in the contract that the roof will be installed per the manufacturers warranty, and it fails the ventilation criteria, then they may be on the hook for the remediation necesary.

Meet with the rep in person, but do not come off as a complaining whining home owner. Just explain your concern that the ventilation meets the criteria necessary for the full warranty, and get it in writing from the rep.

Jim,

I will e-mail both DCI Products and Grace, W.R. Meadows to get a straight answer.

I suspect, that since Ice damming occurs on top of the shingles, they should not have a problem with it, but I will follow through with the answer from the horses mouth, as I hope you do to.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

Mike,

Cute kids! :thumbsup: 

Nice color scheme to the house with the shutters and the shingle color choice. Nice job with the ridge vent from end to end. It looks very uniform.

The front porch roof does not need the ventilation as you presumed.

Ed


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## mpking

Ed the Roofer said:


> Mike,
> 
> Cute kids! :thumbsup:
> 
> Nice color scheme to the house with the shutters and the shingle color choice. Nice job with the ridge vent from end to end. It looks very uniform.
> 
> The front porch roof does not need the ventilation as you presumed.
> 
> Ed



Thanks. They're loaners. (My friend's who was dropping the 50 foot tree)

Thanks again for the shutters, the original one's were sand colored.

The ridge vent was done by the roofer. Other than the ventilation issue, the did an amazing job. They even reflashed the chimney. Like I said, I'm not really blaming the roofer, more the estimator. The roofer can only do what's on the contract. When I get the contract up, we can determine if it was in the contract.

As for the Airvent, i don't think they have modified the design. But it does not mention endplugs.

After I get the pictures up, and I see your comments, I'll pursue the factory rep. I don't even have contact information for them yet. (Althought I'd imagine it'd be on GAF's website.)

I can't thank you gentlemen enough for the advice your giving.


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## Ed the Roofer

I assumed that you had purchased the additional Golden Pledge Warranty, which requires GAF to come out to do an inspection.

If the contractor is not one of the paid up certified contractors and did not give you the additional warranty, I doubt you will have any success getting a rep to come out to look at your home.

They have too many roofing installations being done to provide that additional service for customers who did not pay extra for it. 

I might be wrong, but unless either the contractor or their material supplier requests the inspection, you may not get much in terms of satisfaction expecting an on site visit and inspection.

Ed


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## mpking

Interesting. Very Interesting..

I have a "Peace of Mind" Warranty, which is administered by GAF, but issued by the company that installed the roof.

Halfway down the paper, it says "A GAF quality Assurance Rep will be performing a problem prevention Review on your Weather Stopper Integrated Roofing System Installation"

On the back of the warrenty, in the fine print...

Item (2)
If during the warranty term for misapplication any part of your GAFMC Weather Stopper Roof System or covered flashings is found to have application errors, GAFMC will arrange to have your roof repaired, or recovered, or provide you with replacement products and reimburse you the full reasonable cost of labor...etc..


So.. Based on your last comment.

1. I do not want to futz with the roof myself, since this will VOID my warranty.

2. I should contact the 800 number on my warranty, and pursue this with the warranty company. (I do not believe I have had my follow up inspection yet, although I've had a lot going on, and they may have called and I told them to do it. The notate in many places I do not need to be present when they inspect)

anyways, I promised pictures closer, so here they are.

Pictures

It the same gallery as before, just tacked onto the end. Just keep pushing the right arrow button to see the other 6 pictures.

To answer a previous question. The Fascia board is aluminum wrapped, and the gutter is much too high.

I can't scan the contract, damn scanner is missing a piece.

It has a section marked Ventilation. A subsection is marked Intake. This subsection has two entries. 
Entry 1 is Soffit Vent, Entry 2 is Vented Drip Edge.
Soffit Vent has a #1 beside it. It has Color White written in the color section. Under it is has a note that says:
CAF speak to P.M. with a arrow pointing to white. 
I do not know what CAF means. (It might be something else as well, the writing is small and the last letter is indistinct, it might be CAE)


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## Ed the Roofer

Request nicely, from the contractor that you would like to meet with the owner or the customer service guy they send out to discuss your concerns about the non-applied intake ventilation and to find out what they wrote down on your contract if you are not clear about it.

Secondly, contact the 800 number and find out who the GAF rep is that does the inspections in your area and request his contact phone numbers and e-mail address and then request a specific appointment time so that you can be there to ask him your questions.

When you meet with the rep, have him put in writing if the current ventilation meets the required amount for your home.

It is possible, technically, that you may have the grand total amount required, just from the ridge ventilation product installed. If it is 18 square inches per foot, then multiply that by the entire length of your ridge length. This will give you the total NFVA provided for by the ridge venting alone.

Even without one or the other aspect of the entire balanced ventilation, you still may have technically achieved the proper amount of TOTAL NFVA, even though it is not a balanced system split between the intake and exhaust ventilation.

To calculate the most extreme amount required by any code or any shingle manufacturer, you take the entire attic floor length x the attic floor width and arrive at a number.

Example:
50 foot long, (from left to right), x 30 foot wide, (from front to rear), = 1,500 total attic floor square footage.

The extreme calculation divides that number by 150.

So 1,500 divided by 150 = 10 square feet required, or convert that to square inches then it would = 10 x 144 = 1,440 square inches.

In the example dimensions I used, you would have 50 feet of ridge x 18 square inches per foot = 900 square inches (Providing that the ridge vent product used has a rated NFVA of 18 sq in per lineal foot)

Convert 900 square inches into square feet: A square foot is 12" x 12" = 144 square inches.

So, divide 900 by 144 = 6.25 square feet

In this example, you would be 3.75 square feet,or 3.75 x 144 = 540 square inches short of meeting this benchmark criteria.

Another method of doing these calculations, if other certain criteria are met, and one would be a "Balanced" intake to exhaust ventilation scenario and the other would be a 100 % vapor barrier installed under the warm side of the attic floor insulation, would then be to divide the amounts by 300 instead of 150. Then the total amount of ventilation required would be cut in half.

Regardless of any of these calculations, the important issue is if you meet the requirements from the manufacturer to qualify for their special warranty that you were contractually promised. 

Once again, I repeat, get it in writing from the rep and ensure that the company will stand behind it down the road, in the event that they want to disclaim any liability because the roof and attic ventilation was not installed the more optimum way, which would have been to be completely balanced, 50/50 or to slightly favor the intake ventilation in a ratio of 60/40, with the 60 % being the intake and the 40 % being the exhaust.

Ed

edit:
Also, from your new photos, it looks as if the Gutter Apron Sheet Metal Drip Edge Flashing does not extentd ito your gutter, so that is probably why someone applied that grey caulking at the top edge of the gutter. The drip edge installation looks a little sloppy, but it is concealed from fiew by the gutter placement.
Ed


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## mpking

Just for reference my calculations are below:

40' x 22' = 880 total attic floor square footage. 
880 / 150 (Which is the number GAF mentions on the warranty) = 5.866667
5.86667 x 144 = 844.6

40' x 18 = 720

844.6 - 720 is a shortage of 124.8.

But wouldn't it be worse in real life, since the ridge vent is only about 38' feet long? Making that second number 684, and the shortage 160.8

The other factor at play here is I still have gable vents. I imagine that those would put me over the ventilation value. (They're roughly 18x12) event though they do not function as intake vents very well.

During the summer, I did have a thermometer up in the attic (I was working up there doing wiring, and didn't want to get heat stroke). It was about 125 degrees up there. (Ambient outside temperature was about 80-85)

Just to clarify your last statement.

I should contact the roofer first, and then GAF if the roofer doesn't help. Or both at the same time.

Mike


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## Ed the Roofer

I always recommend trying to go to the first party you are dealing with and trying to remedy the situation fairly for both parties.

If they should have contractually done some additional work and refuse to accomodate the needs in the particular situation, then go to the next source, but have a reasonable time limit for the initial party to decide what they are willing to do before you back them into a corner and before you step over their heads.

Now, regarding the GAF rep, I still am unlear, but it seems as if your contractor is one of their certified contractors and offered you the extended warranty provisions, so they should be obliged to do the proper work.

The 18 square inches of NFVA is what most good ridge ventilation products provide, but some produce lesser NFVA ratings, so you need to know exactly which product they installed for that math to be correct.

Use the 38 feet length if that is what you truly have installed.

If you do add soffit intake ventilation, then the gable vents should be closed off to prevent short-circuiting the ventilation flowage.

Remember, if the contractor is one of their certified companies, they have paid a fee to GAF to "Buy" that honorarium in addition to attending some CARE classes. The GAF rep probably does alot of business volume with the contractor, so the sword is double edged. He may try aggressively to straighten out the matter or he may feel an obligation to the potential future revenue that the certified contractor can generate for them.

Ed


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## mpking

I've been doing more investigating.

I've found that I am able to get traditional 2" round soffit vent into the soffit. It's rough, since I have to precision drill the hole. (The soffit is 2.75" wide) and time consuming since the soffit has to be angled to get under the fascia wrapping. My time is cheap to myself however.

Then I have to go into the attic, and drill holes thru a "Mystery Board". The "Mystery Board" appears to be a 1x8.

I'm not going to cause problems by drilling this?

Also, I've been advised to put one vent in-between each joist.

Will this effectively end my ventilation problems?

I've attached some diagrams (excuse the spelling of fascia, I'm not going to remake the images for a mispelling)

















The Mystery Board is nailed to the ends of the Rafters/Joists. It runs the length of the house, I just wanted to expose the joists in my little pictures.


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## Ed the Roofer

Good idea, but not enough ventilation. To equal, or balance the amount of exhaust ventilation you have from your ridge vent, you would have to divide the 720 by the size's NFVA listed to determine how many you would need. The copy/paste did not format correctly, so; 

Here is the specific link to the categaories and NFVA's of the circular mini vents. http://www.lomanco.com/ProductPAGES/CirkVents.html

This NFVA chart is from www.Lomanco.com in their products guide for intake ventilation. 

Ed

*Model Number*
*General Specifications*
*Overall Size (in)*
*Net Free Area (in2)*
*Hole Size (in)*
*Number Per Inner Carton*
*Number Per Master Carton*
*Weight Per Carton (lbs)*
_*L-38*_
Screen & Louvers
3 
1.63
2-1/2
6
72
2- 3/4
_*C-25*_
Screen only
3 
2.34
2-1/2
6
72
2 -1/4
_*P-18*_
Screen & Louvers
1 
0.20
3/4
6
72
3/4
_*D-16*_
Louver only
1 
0.44
3/4
6
72
1/2
_*CV-4*_
Screen & Louvers
4-1/2
3.00
4 
—-
36
2 -3/4
_*CV-3*_
Screen & Louvers
3-1/2
2.57
3 
6
72
3- 1/2
_*CV-2*_
Screen & Louvers
2-1/4
1.50
2 
6
72
2 
_*CV-1*_
Screen & Louvers
1-1/4
0.23
1 
6
72
3/4​


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## mpking

umm... Maybe my math is wrong.... but

720 / 1.5 = 480. So I would need to put 480 in the roof.

So in other words, I would neded 240 on each side.... That's 45' if I line them side by side. Um I only have a 40 foot roof line..

Other words I'm still screwed. (Based on the CV-2)


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## mpking

(I'm really tired, just ranting)

So I can't do a vented drip edge unless I get the roofer to do it. Or risk destroying the warranty.

The 2inch round soffit vents seem to be ineffective at best. (I'm 1/4 done, and got about 12 hours more work to finish it, told you they were a *************** to install)

If I don't fix the ventilation, I risk destroying the said same warranty.

Arrrrr


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## mpking

Just looked up the specs on the Vented Drip edge. Looks like I'm in a hole they're too.

According to the specs, I'd need 60 feet of Vented Drip edge to balance the ridgevent.

With the 32 feet I got (not sure where I got 32 from, I think it's from the amount deducted from the endplugs) I'll get 576 sq inches if I do both sides. 

Which is better than the 90 sq inches If I continue with my current plan of 1 vent every 16 inches on center.


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## Ed the Roofer

Check out the continuous soffit strip vent or the under eave vents, such as these at this Air Vent Corp. link.

http://www.airvent.com/professional/products/intake.shtml

Ed


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## mpking

I'll get a sample today, and see what I can do.

From the spec sheet, It might fit.... It'll be another precision cutting job, this time with a sawzall.

Worse case scenario, I'm cutting the soffit and gluing it up there.


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