# Why does it seem like contractors want to cheat customers out of their money?



## kjwoodworking (Nov 21, 2007)

Hi Sil, I've been there. From the other side though. Some customers are great to work for where others expect you to do add ons for nothing....that's another story.. back to your quotes. What I find is that quotes for work and the actual finished work isn't the same! I've lost bids to contractors who were lower on their prices, only the work wasn't high quality. Some do great work, where others cut every corner possible and do some half a** work. Painters who give low quotes(and sometimes the others do it too) often do no prep work, such as sanding, priming, caulking,etc.
I live in a small town and have had some customers decide to hire the lowest quote guy, only to call me in to fix his mistakes!
The best thing you can do to ensure you get good quality for the money is to actually call his/her references and ask if they are happy with the work. You should not go for the lowest price unless the prices are close and you have thoroughly checked them out! And pay no more than 1/2 of the money upfront. This way you will have some leverage if you need it.
And if these people want the work, they should give you free estimates!
The best way to find someone seems to be word of mouth these days...good luck with your search!
Hope this helps you in some way!


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## send_it_all (Apr 30, 2007)

You get a wide variety of prices because the vast majority of contractors dont know how to charge enough for their work to cover their costs AND overhead AND also make a profit. The ones that gave you the higher prices are most likely estimating the job correctly. 90+% of contractors go out of business within 5 years for this exact reason. They just figure out how much they want to make per hour, with no regard for the underlying cost of running a business. Some take it to the other extreme and try to make a big profit. I dont think it is unethical, I just think it leads to losing some jobs. Maybe that isnt such a bad thing if they can make the same amount of money every year as another guy who does more work...sounds good to me. 

Im assuming you were referring to me when you felt you were being suckered into paying the up front fee for measuring. Maybe not as I recall saying $100 or $150. That is a perfectly legitimate request from a contractor who has been told that the customer is getting other bids. This almost always means that if my bid isnt the lowest, I am wasting my time. Asking for the fee is a way to make it not a complete waste. Believe it or not, we dont have a crystal ball in the truck that spits out the magic number. There is actually a little bit of work involved in putting together an estimate. This work includes measuring, doing material takeoffs based on the measurements, pricing and locating materials, entering this information into a computer, and then typing up a professional looking proposal. This is all approximately 4-5 hours worth of work for me on a job like yours. This is all while knowing that you are getting multiple estimates and that there is no way mine will be the lowest, because I am competing against guys who literally dont know how to charge enough to stay in business. So hopefully now, $150 dollars doesnt seem like a complete rip-off.

Maybe I should start a thread asking "why do homeowners have so little respect for a contactors time?" I have to be honest after sitting here for the last couple of weeks and reading the questions you have asked about your contractor and seeing how many times you have changed direction, I am relieved we didnt connect on that job.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

There has never ever been a free estimate in the history of contracting. Someone is paying for the estimators time.:wink:

Andy


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

This can be a long drawn out debate, there is NO industry standard on what contractors can or will charge for their services, each of us has different expenses and overheads. The lower bids versus higher bids have so many factors that you as the consumer don't see you cannot just say the higher guy is ripping you off. Painting a kitchen for $ 275.00 I promise you the guy has limited libility insurance and there is no way he has medical coverage for his crew. Not that the medical should effect your decision, but the better the benefits the employer offers his employees the better the employee he attracts which offers you the consumer a better end product and usually more trustworthy and reliable people working in your residence.

Other companies could have sales people who get paid a commission, offer a 401k, supply vehicles or other allowances to their employees, all this gets calculated into the cost of doing your job. Perhaps the lower price contractor had a job cancel or was in a slow period and was giving you a job at cost just to keep his guys busy and create cashflow.

When I bid jobs I always let people know I am going to be the most expensive bid they get, but what you don't always see or notice is that I cover all my bases and I won't come back and hit you up for an extra because I accounted for it in the beginning. This is a common practice among unscrupulous contractors. By the way, I get over 90% of what I bid on. 

Do you realize that between 60-75% of what you pay a contractor goes towards labor, insurance, taxes, licenses, benefits, overhead and profit? And profit is usually a small percentage of those figures.

So, do I think contractors are trying to rip you off because you are a single female? I am sure some are, most are not though. I can get a steak at Sizzler for $ 8.99, go to Ruth Chris Steakhouse and pay $ 39.99, is Ruth Chris ripping me off? No, I get a table cloth, a well dressed waiter/waitress, ambiance, no kids running around and a better piece of meat. I could use ANY other business in this world and show you various prices for similar products and end results, but you have to look at the service that goes with it and the same holds true with contractors.


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

You are right to some degree. I had 4 people give me a bid on the replacement of studs and sheetrock for a 8 x8 wall. Three were licensed folks. The one that asked me if my name was Mrs..... and I said "yes", he gave me the lowest quote.

Co-workers and friends have all agreed that if a Male is present on the job site, the contractor would be declined to rip him off.


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

Send it all- Yes, I was referring to you. Everyone gave me a free estimate on cabinet refacing. You said you would charge a fee (perhaps it was $100 - $150 but I heard $250). Nevertheless, I am at the mercy of your pricing. What if it was a high fee? I would have either lost my so called deposit or sign with you.

When I told everyone (family , friends, co-workers) they were so relieved that I didn't get sucked in. 

Honestly, if you ask anyone to do something for you and he/she ask for a deposit only to be reimbursed when you agree to the job (not knowing how much it would cost you ), would you do it?

The reasons I ask alot of questions from this and other board is so I don't have to go through another lawsuit with an unscrupulous contractor. It took alot of stress and time off from work and hire an attorney. Yes, we won but no amount of money can pay for the stress I went through.

I had a very good hardworking and honest man who did my hardwood floors, my roofing, and electrical work. They were not the lowest bids but they were people I trusted through referrals.

Two of my friends had their tiles and hardwood floors done by the same man that did mine. Three co-workers who wanted a kitchen remodel signed up with the same guy I did. Both the hardwood floor and the kitchen guy did excellent work. I had many compliments.

I am not bashing all contractors but those that are ripping customers off.


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

What are the rough details of the lawsuit? Licensed contractor? Faulty work? Contract specifications?

Please define contractors ripping customers off. I know there out there, but they are either unlicensed or if licensed are few and far between than honest ones and deserve to have their tickets pulled.


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

Chris,

I don't want to relive the details of the lawsuit but it was a licensed contractor. Not a referral but someone who advertised in the newspaper.

My definition of a contractor ripping a customer off is that the contractor would give a different price depending on who the customer is and not the work. For example, for the same painting job in the living room, a contractor would give a younger couple a fee that would differ from a single woman or an elderly gentleman. Another example would be a contractor giving a higher price for someone living in a desirable and expensive neighbourhood versus low income housing for the EXACT specified job.

As a customer, integrity and customer service are the most important elements. I, and many others I know, have paid the highest or higher price but the quality of work was excellent. The customer didn't have to nag to make sure the contractor doesn't take any short cut.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

There are a lot of crooks out there, but that's true for pretty much any industry. 

I don't give designs away, if you want a detailed elevation and floorplan, you're going to have to pay. I also don't give detailed estimates away anymore. If you need a detailed estimate for insurance purposes, you'll have to pay for the time involved, $100 an hour. I do give rough estimates away. But if I'm going to sit down and do a detailed bid which is going to involve design, pricing, shop rate factoring and so on that takes several hours, then I'm going to be paid for it.

I get calls every week from somebody wanting an insurance estimate. When I tell them it's not free, they generally balk and some get downright rude.


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

P.K.

There are crooks in many industries. Word of mouth is the best kind of referrals.

With your profession, I wouldn't give free detailed estimates either. Sometimes, people like myself, don't even have a clue what the price would be. I always ask for a ballpark. I truly don't know whether it would be in the hundreds, thousands or more for a job. If I knew alot, I would do the work myself instead of hiring someone.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

Word-of-mouth is the best way to find someone to do some work. If someone you trust refers someone, then the relationship on both sides is going to be better.


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## The Home Doc (Nov 17, 2007)

sil said:


> P.K.
> 
> There are crooks in many industries. Word of mouth is the best kind of referrals.
> 
> With your profession, I wouldn't give free detailed estimates either. Sometimes, people like myself, don't even have a clue what the price would be. I always ask for a ballpark. I truly don't know whether it would be in the hundreds, thousands or more for a job. If I knew alot, I would do the work myself instead of hiring someone.


 
Hi,

I can't speak for everyone else, but I have the same problem as you do... but like another poster has already stated, my problem is from the other side. Most of the time when I go out for an estimate, my customer has done no homework as to what he/she wants and has no idea of a ballpark price for the work they want done. 

I'll use flooring for an example....

I gave a customer a quote for a flooring job @ $2325. They were flabergasted and practically accused me of trying to rip them off until I explained to them in detail where the money was going. This is something I normally don't take the time to do, but have started doing more since the market has slowed down, especially during the holiday season. Sometimes, we as contractors forget that the average homeowner has no clue how much the materials cost, let alone how much it takes to run a business.

As you said, if you knew how to do it... you wouldn't have called us. 

I have recently started charging for my estimates. My way of seeing it is that if the customer isn't willing to spend a small fee for me to come to their home, they aren't willing to foot the bill for my quality of work. I get a lot of customers that want estimates that are shopping by price. Usually, by the time I leave their homes, they have seen the error of their ways and are shopping based on quality of work. That is why my company's slogan is "We don't sell price. We sell quality." You just can't put a cheap dollar figure on a job done right, and done right the first time. Sometimes I beat other contractor's proposals, sometimes I don't. I don't even think about what they are gonna charge. I give the customer what I am willing to do the work for, and they can take it or leave it. It's not debateable, it's not open for negotiation. It's the bottom line dollar figure that I can do the job for, pay my crew with, and still make enough money to pay my bills.


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

Sil;

All of my work is referral, no advertising, my rates vary slightly, not dramatically, the repeat clients get a little better deal then the new unknown client, people in a tight situation I try to work with. You never know who is going to refer you (hopeful all clients send you to 3 more), prices need to remain stable but flexible when needed, it probably doesn't make much sense, but it's an art that some of us contractors have developed over the years.

You hired a guy out of the newspaper and it turned out bad, I can say that he was part of a small percentage of licensed contractors that prey on people calling them, doing damage and hope that nothing comes from it. I hope you also reported him to the CSLB and had some penelty towards him (license revoked?)

As for Send It All, I have dealt with him on various occassions on a different forum for the past 6 months or so, both he and I seem to have similar attitudes and responses to the contracting business. In no way was he trying to rip you off by charging for an estimate, he knew you were price shopping and instead of spending time and money to work on a proposal he figured he was not going to get he wanted some form of compensation for his time, nothing wrong or illegal about it, and if you hired him he would have credited you on the contract. Was he going to more or less? We'll never know now.

My line of work is specialized and my competitors and I speak regularly and if we get people price shopping I don't bother looking at the plans, I just give a high sq.ft. number because it is not worth it for me to compete against 6 or 8 other contractors when I am busy enough on my current jobs. We're not trying to rip people off, we just don't like being abused by customers either and I hate to say it there is a lot out there.


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

Chris

I agree that the contractor and customer relationship is very important. No one wants to be ripped off. If I can get a referral from a friend or family, I wouldn't even ask for an estimate. I would just hire him/her. However, if I don't know anyone or can 't get a good referral for a job, I would go price shopping.

I work for a large corporation. We are always looking for good contractors to do repairs, kitchen remodels and room additions. I referred my cabinet guy to 3 co-workers. They are going to be getting their kitchen remodel early next year with him. He is a very honest man with great workmanship. His price is very reasonable. Even if he was expensive, I would have still referred him to my co-workers.

Just like in real estate, a fair price that both sides are happy with is much better than a win-lose relationship


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## sil (Sep 27, 2007)

Chris,

One last example of someone trying to rip me off. Someone from Empire today gave me a quote for Hunter Douglas Cellular shades. The price he gave was $750 or $765. When I said that was kind of high, he pretended he was calling someone and then quoted me $450. This happened in less than a minute. When I noticed this, I told him I needed to think about it. 

Well, thanks to the internet, I googled for the exact size, color and brand. The price was $138.

Is this considered a rip off or what? A quote of $750, then $450 when I can buy it for $138. He was a salesman for Empire today. If I were a guy in my mid thirties or fourties, do you think he would give such a high quote? I doubt it.


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

A 42% decrease seems excessive yes, I wasn't there and am not familar with the circumstances or the products. Realize there are different qualities of the same product, I know this sounds like a sales pitch, but truth be known I can talk power tools and what we as contractors pay at our wholesalers is either the same or more than what the general public pays at a box store! Why? The tool looks the same, but it's not, the insides are different, cheaper parts at the box store, why? The general public sees us as contractors using say a Milwaukee 18v cordless drill, they see it at the box store and say 'good enough for the contractor, good enough for me' and pay less, but that box store tool won't last me a year.

Now the internet has blinds for $ 138.00, did they come to your house and measure? Will they come and install? What is their service policy if there is a problem? Will they come and investigate and replace it (all materials and labor)? Is your window covering need to be custom sized? if so does this include customizing the size? If it is customized and it fails is there still a warranty?

The internet is a dangerous place, people get blinders on and believe everything the read without looking at the whole picture. You need to know what you are buying and the FULL details that involve it. I admit I have used it many times, I built a subdivision in Napa and we needed 58 complete appliance set ups (Fridge, Stove, DW, W/D) I bought from the internet, some guy in Boston, never met once, he had no overhead, I literally saved over 50k buying this way, or did I, I had to do all the leg work, there was no rep in the area, so I got what I paid for, appliances with no service, oh and by the way, appliances have a failure rate of about 4% and the local who we did not buy from won't service them, purchasers have to go through the corporate channel and wait in line, I really saved nothing.

I would call Empire tomorrow and inquire though as to how the price quoted changed by 42% in mere minutes.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> ...
> 
> 
> You hired a guy out of the newspaper and it turned out bad, I can say that he was part of a small percentage of licensed contractors that prey on people calling them, doing damage and hope that nothing comes from it. I hope you also reported him to the CSLB and had some penelty towards him (license revoked?)


Actually - experience has taught me that it is the contractors who advertize the most, and have the largest ads in the papers and in the yellow pages, and have expensive, large professional "billboards" on every side & back of every truck, that typically are the biggest ripoffs. The contractors who depend heavily on advertizing, do so because they get few personal recommendations. Their overhead is so extreme they have to spend a large % of every job just to keep the ads floating around. A full page yellowpages ad costs $25,000 a MONTH. 

I had some estimates for tree work this summer. 4 contractors came in for the same work at $2500, $5000, $5500, or $6,500, and $9000.00. Now I KNOW the 2500 guy was going to show up with 4 illegal immigrants and destroy my yard. I KNOW he had no insurance, and lived at home rent free. But the $9000.00 guy who showed up in a suit and tie, a leather briefcase, driving an H2 HumVee didn't get the job either. 

The $5000.00 guy got the job, because unlike the next higher bid (I forgot if it was 500 or 1500 more) when I asked for proof of insurance, and if his employees were on the books, he had a package of all that pertainant info READY, including the business card of his insurance agent and instructions on how to get the information verified without a hassle. The other guy acted like I had 2 heads when I asked for his agent's name and policy number, as if nobody ever asked him that before.

Earlier this year, a roofer hired 4 illegals and one fell off the roof, paralizied from the neck down. None were on the books, and the contractor had no insurance. Guess who is liable in this situation - YOU the homeowner. 

There is a lot to discuss on this subject, I'll revisit this thread when I have more time.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

sil said:


> Chris,
> 
> One last example of someone trying to rip me off. Someone from Empire today gave me a quote for Hunter Douglas Cellular shades. The price he gave was $750 or $765. When I said that was kind of high, he pretended he was calling someone and then quoted me $450. This happened in less than a minute. When I noticed this, I told him I needed to think about it.
> 
> ...


Yes he would. Do you think 1=800=mattress is the cheapest way to purchase bedding? King size Sealey for 1200? I got it for $575.00 and I'll bet someone else could beat that. 

If you purchase one of those sleep-number beds, with a 30 day risk-free gurantee, and call them 15 days after the sale, they WILL offer you 50% refund, rather than lose the sale. So you KNOW at 50% off their advertized price, they're still making money. But if you're happy with the bed at full price, you were not "ripped off." 

It's possible a contractor might be more apt to rip off a woman, however, a contractor or business worth it's salt literally will try to rip off EVERYBODY. 

Here's another one - my friend bought his sister's house after her divorce. He wanted new wall to wall carpeting - 4 bedrooms, a livingroom, and a den. He brought his sister to the carpet store because they had already carpeted the house before, and kept the measurements on file.

FIRST the salesman trys to convine him they need to measure again, (and charge for measuring, credit on purchase though.) because a house could have been altered, or SETTLED! 

When they offer a price of $7,500.00 for a given carpet and good padding - his sister (an expert negotiator) says - You're doing it for 3000.00 cash, or no sale. The salesman has to "go and ask the manager" and then comes back with a "I don't know why, because we're not gonna make anything on this, but he said yes!" 

The point is, there are different "business models" and not everyone wants to be the K-Mart contractor, where the only important thing is rockbottom prices. Just because Joe costs more than Larry, doesn't mean Joe is ripping you off.


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## The Home Doc (Nov 17, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ... A full page yellowpages ad costs $25,000 a MONTH....
> 
> .


 
HOLY COW!!! Where are you at LawnGuyLandSparky??? I have an ad in the yellow pages that costs me $25 a month... credit card size. She offered me the full page for $100, but I think that's a little overkill.


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## windowpoor (Nov 10, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's possible a contractor might be more apt to rip off a woman, however, a contractor or business worth it's salt literally will try to rip off EVERYBODY.


Unfortunately, this is the way I feel about most people who try to get my business. 

Sil, I don't think you should feel bad about being defensive. I think that salesmen will probably do anything they can to separate you from your money. It is very difficult finding meaningful information about some of these things. We are trying to decide on replacement windows. Salesmen are quick to give you references, but when dealing with a product that probably won't fail for 10 years, what good does it do to talk to someone that just had the work done last year? All too often, the information you find online is thinly veiled advertising, or taken directly from the manufacturers press releases. Honestly, I really think that sometimes they don't expect people to do any research at all.

To the salesmen/contractors out there, I'm sorry it takes time to work up a bid. Knowing what goes into it, I may be more willing to pay for that now. However, you have to understand that there are some potential customers that want the nitty gritty details. For you, it may just be another job. For me, it's likely to be a HUGE chunk of money. 

Good luck with your project.
Mark


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

A full page ad in The Yellow Pages for $100? Is this in Outer Mongolia? I've had 2 column, 2" ads that were about $160 a month. Now I have 3 lines with bold letters on the top line and a one line listing under another heading and pay $65 a month. I've never priced a full page, but the top half was about $8000 in the cabinetmaking section.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

sil said:


> Do you really think that contractors are TRYING to rip me off by thinking I am a single woman and don't know anything about prices?


Based on my recent experiences I don't think that because you are a single woman has any bearing on the quotes you get. The quotes I have received in the last few months have varied just as wildly as the quotes you mentioned. And I'm a fairly knowledgeable DIYer with a lot of tools. I wanted to add an attached garage to my house and requested quotes from 3 contractors. The quotes varied from $65,000 to $90,000 and I live in a low cost of living area. I was stunned. I decided to build the garage myself, but I still needed to hire contractors for eletrical, plumbing, roofing and the slab. The quotes on these sub-jobs varied just as wildly. I used forums such as this forum to educate myself about the work to be performed so I could select the best contractor not the lowest bidder. The plumbing bids were the wildest ranging from $2,100 to $8,400. In this case, the lowest bid happened to be the best contractor and the only one of four bidders whose bid would meet the plumbing code. I selected the highest bidder for the concrete slab even though I had to wait 45 days for the work to be performed. He was that impressive. I'm in the process of hanging drywall now and it appears the project is going to cost about $24,000, considerably less than $65,000 - $90,000.

I attributed some of the really high bids to the fact the bidder just didn't want the job. One electrical bidder had a price book he had to go by. Installing a GFCI outlet cost $375 whether the wire run was 5 ft or 100 ft. Installing a ceiling box had a price. It just didn't make sense to me. In short, ignore the price of the bid, go by your gut feeling.


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> Do you realize that between 60-75% of what you pay a contractor goes towards labor, insurance, taxes, licenses, benefits, overhead and profit? And profit is usually a small percentage of those figures.





spebby said:


> I'm in the process of hanging drywall now and it appears the project is going to cost about $24,000, considerably less than $65,000 - $90,000.


 

$ 65,000.00 - 60% = $ 26,000.00

$ 90,000.00 - 75% = $ 22,500.00

You're somewhere in the middle



I rest my case, contractors are not ALL trying to rip you off


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Chris Johnson, I would agree with you if the $24,000 was all material. Most of the $24,000 ($18,000) was paid to sub-contractors (plumber, electrician, roofer, concrete, spray foam insulation, and garage doors) which I would assume would include the 60% for labor, insurance, taxes, permits, etc.

I don't think all contractors are out to rip me off. And I understand the costs of a business, I own one. The fact is $65,000 - $90,000 for an attached garage is way out of line in my area.


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

spebby said:


> I don't think all contractors are out to rip me off. And I understand the costs of a business, I own one. The fact is $65,000 - $90,000 for an attached garage is way out of line in my area.


 
Well, we agree on that.

I can't comment on the prices in Oklahoma, I live in CA.

No one here can see what is done or what was quoted on your garage, but usually when people act as there own GC to save money a number of items either get missed or put off until a later date which never comes, this is not factored into the final cost of something that people let everyone know what it costs. If you finish up at 24k - congrats.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

spebby said:


> I'm in the process of hanging drywall now and it appears the project is going to cost about $24,000, considerably less than $65,000 - $90,000.


Now, considering the time you spent educating yourself, and getting permits and coordinating the project, add what it would cost you to employ 1 or 2 carpenters with worker's compensation, and own a truck and insure it, and adverize, purchase tools, contractors insurance, add a profit and advertizing costs... what would YOU charge someone ELSE to do for them what you're doing for you?



> I attributed some of the really high bids to the fact the bidder just didn't want the job. One electrical bidder had a price book he had to go by. Installing a GFCI outlet cost $375 whether the wire run was 5 ft or 100 ft. Installing a ceiling box had a price. It just didn't make sense to me. In short, ignore the price of the bid, go by your gut feeling.


Many contractors have 2 prices - the price for new, large scale work to builders, and the price for old work in existing structures. There is not a lot of small scale new work, and very little of it would be for HOs doing an addition on their own. The prices you were quoted would probably be the guys flat-rate price for installing what you wanted on an a-la-carte basis under old-work circumstances. 

When I started in the trade, a contractor wanted $150.00 to install a floodlight on the customer's existing 2nd floor porch light location. He actually wanted another $150.00 to install a second floodlight socket on the same canopy. (Typical double-flood arrangement.) Bulbs NOT included! 

His meat & potatoes wasn't little add-on Homewoner extras like this. His plan was quick in, quick out. Additional work outside the scope of the initial reason for being there - new addition, or new kitchen or new bathroom or dormer, was more of a thorn in his side than a moneymaking opportunity. In fact, additions which forced the replacement of existing panels and services wre handled this way: He would install a new heavier service at or near cost. Reason being, he didn't want to waste time negotiating a price with the homeowner for an extra. 

He priced new work on a schedule similar to what you got on an a-la-carte basis, so that the contractors he worked for would know how to price the electrical work into each job without involving him, the electrical contractor, or using any of his time reviewing plans or submitting estimates. The electrical costs were known. 

If an existing service was in a condition where there were violations that would have to be corrected if one upgraded it - he would skip the heavy-up entirely and just slap a new second 100a service and meter pan at cost - and use that for the new wrok, so that there would be no wasted time correcting a customer's existing violations.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

I am well aware that new construction work is generally priced cheaper than remodeling work for a number of reasons. And I'm aware that a quality contractor is worth paying a higher price. The problem for homeowners is we don't hire a contractor very often. Generally we get bids and have no way of knowing which contractor has the highest quality work. In my experience, the highest bidder (or lowest) is usually not the best contractor so you can't go on price alone. However, when the bids vary wildly it's easy for the homeowner to think they are being ripped off. The plumbing bids I received is a good example. They varied from $2,100 to $8,400. I am quite capable of doing the plumbing myself to code but only a licensed plumber can pull a plumbing permit. Since this is an inspected job I had no choice to but to hire a licensed plumber. My water well is in the new garage and the plumbing job consisted of replacing the supply line to the house and adding a drain for the water softner. Each bidder described a different method for connecting the new supply line to the existing supply line at the house. One was going to use copper and sweat the connection under the new slab, one was going to run pex and have a crimp connection under the slab, and one was going to run copper and braze (silver solder) the connection. Only one of those methods meets code in my area and it happened to be the cheapest bid.

what would YOU charge someone ELSE to do for them what you're doing for you?

I wouldn't build a garage for someone else at any price. I'm too old. I understand what you are saying. Obviously, I can do the work cheaper than if I hire someone for the reasons you state. I have no problem paying a fair price for a job well done. I elected to do the framing, cornice work, siding and sheetrock myself because I have the tools (the only tool I bought was a framing nailer), framers don't need a license in my area and my long time hobby is woodworking. However, setting 2 x 12 x 26' joists and 2 x 6 x 22' rafters and tossing sheating on the roof is a chore for an old man working alone.


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## hubbard53 (Nov 7, 2007)

this is the reason there are so many DIYers and DIY boards. . . people dont like to get ripped off. In the age of technology, information is power and frankly, the younger generations won't go for the old skool methods of pricing for much longer. I can easily look up the price of lumber in differnt regions, sinks, appliances, etc. If i need something done, I'll pay someone for their time and throw in some profit . . .


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

spebby said:


> I am well aware that new construction work is generally priced cheaper than remodeling work for a number of reasons. And I'm aware that a quality contractor is worth paying a higher price. The problem for homeowners is we don't hire a contractor very often. Generally we get bids and have no way of knowing which contractor has the highest quality work. In my experience, the highest bidder (or lowest) is usually not the best contractor so you can't go on price alone. However, when the bids vary wildly it's easy for the homeowner to think they are being ripped off. The plumbing bids I received is a good example. They varied from $2,100 to $8,400. I am quite capable of doing the plumbing myself to code but only a licensed plumber can pull a plumbing permit. Since this is an inspected job I had no choice to but to hire a licensed plumber.


I want to point out that when a person is capable of doing something themselves, but for whatewver reason chooses not to - they tend to feel that any price quoted is a ripoff. 

I can clean my own house, but I gladly pay Merry Maids 75 bucks a week to do it for me. I know she isn't getting 75 bucks for 2 hours work. But it's not a ripoff.

Business runs many different ways. A more expensive contractor might make the same money but do less work. It's not a ripoff just because someone else is willing to do it for less.



> My water well is in the new garage and the plumbing job consisted of replacing the supply line to the house and adding a drain for the water softner. Each bidder described a different method for connecting the new supply line to the existing supply line at the house. One was going to use copper and sweat the connection under the new slab, one was going to run pex and have a crimp connection under the slab, and one was going to run copper and braze (silver solder) the connection. Only one of those methods meets code in my area and it happened to be the cheapest bid.
> 
> what would YOU charge someone ELSE to do for them what you're doing for you?
> 
> I wouldn't build a garage for someone else at any price. I'm too old. I understand what you are saying. Obviously, I can do the work cheaper than if I hire someone for the reasons you state. I have no problem paying a fair price for a job well done. I elected to do the framing, cornice work, siding and sheetrock myself because I have the tools (the only tool I bought was a framing nailer), framers don't need a license in my area and my long time hobby is woodworking. However, setting 2 x 12 x 26' joists and 2 x 6 x 22' rafters and tossing sheating on the roof is a chore for an old man working alone.


I understand, but you have to understand that a lot of what you did yourself was the simpler, profitable work.


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## MikeF (Sep 28, 2006)

SIL - Consumers can avoid being ripped off by doing some homework. We have a consumer guide on our website

Top 10 mistakes consumers make when hiring a contractor

Even if you ignore everything else listed if you do just 1 thing you will probably be 90% assured of getting what you pay for, and that is checking references. *The best indicator of what someone will do is what they have done in the past.*

Insist on references, and not 3, but many. We give out a sheet with about 50 references of past customers. We have nothing to hide and want potential customers to talk to our past customers. Nothing is better than to have past customers brag about us. 

Check references, if the contractor can't give you a sheet of them don't consider meeting with that contractor. Only *after* you have a short list of legitimate contractors can you then evaluate them correctly. If you have crooks thrown in with the ones you are evaluating you can't judge any of them correctly. You won't be able to judge anything correctly. Your price issue of being taken advantage of because of being a woman is a perfect example. You don't know if a price is high if it is high or it is because you are a woman. By narrowing down to a legitimate short list of qualified contractors only then can you then be assured that the pricing you are receiving is not being effected by someone trying to take advantage of a single woman.

I hope that makes sense to you?

Your interaction with SEND IT ALL is a perfect example. Since you have not pre-qualified him ahead of time your only choice is to jump to a conclusion that his costs up front are not legitimate, and that there is some element of him trying to take advantage of you. Now if you had prequalified him before hand you wouldn't even be thinking that way, instead you would be making a logical decision based upon other factors whether you want to pay $150 up front for a measure or not. Without pre-qualifying the issues are too cloudy for a consumer to be able to make good decisions. You are continuously second guessing what somebodies motivations are instead of just being able to focus on the project and getting the best results from the most qualified contractor who will meet your needs.

Good luck. I hope you choose to avoid playing the victim and take control and become an informed consumer.


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