# Concrete Retaining Wall made to look like Natural stone - Stonemakers



## Canarywood1

Sure,it's a water reducing agent that we in the redi-mix industry have used for years,just google concrete plasticizers,or super plasticizers,and you should be in business.


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## shinyhalo

Thanks.
It looks like Melflux is a good super plasticizer, but where do you buy the stuff online?


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## concretemasonry

You probably could not afford to buy clay and chemicals/additives on line and have it shipped, so it probably not available for such a limited application.

The durability will probably be limited in most climates.

Dick


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## shinyhalo

I was really hoping for info more like "Buy X amount of WYZ Product at this online store for one truck of ready mix."

People are using these plasticizers for concrete counter tops. I don't understand why it's so hard to buy the stuff.

And BASF says their Melflux INCREASES the strength of the concrete.


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## Canarywood1

shinyhalo said:


> I was really hoping for info more like "Buy X amount of WYZ Product at this online store for one truck of ready mix."
> 
> People are using these plasticizers for concrete counter tops. I don't understand why it's so hard to buy the stuff.
> 
> And BASF says their Melflux INCREASES the strength of the concrete.


 
All of the plasticizers we used were in powder form and were water soluable,and were added to a batch by timers,and yes all water reducing agents increase the strength of concrete by using less water.

If you intend to do a job using a water reducer,why not see if you can buy enough of it from your redi-mix producer who will be supplying the concrete??


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## Mort

We carry super-plasticizer on our trucks (liquid), but 10 gallons of that stuff would ruin a load. 

Another cool way to do something like that is Shotcrete (Gunnite). Its not for the DIYer, though, since you need a pump, a gun, and a crew with a few screws loose. If Mike Rowe says that Shotcrete is the worst job he's ever tried, that should be a clue.


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## Canarywood1

Mort said:


> We carry super-plasticizer on our trucks (liquid), but 10 gallons of that stuff would ruin a load.
> 
> Another cool way to do something like that is Shotcrete (Gunnite). Its not for the DIYer, though, since you need a pump, a gun, and a crew with a few screws loose. If Mike Rowe says that Shotcrete is the worst job he's ever tried, that should be a clue.


 
Yes 10 gallons would be too much for a 10yd.load,71/2 gals. is the correct amount, and add 21/2 gals. water for 10 gal. total to attain the proper slump.


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## shinyhalo

I went to a ready-mix supplier and asked about this stuff.
They said they already added a set-retarder and a plasticizer to their concrete.

They seemed really perplexed when I told them the mix should have no aggregate, but if you look at the videos stonemaker's concrete looks like it has none.

I wish this was more standard so I could just tell them what I want to do and they'd know right away what concrete to sell me! I don't really give a dam whether it's $80 or $120 per cubic yard, I just want to be able to work it for 2-3 hours, stack it into a three foot wall shape, and press and carve rock-like shapes into it.


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## Canarywood1

They seemed really perplexed when I told them the mix should have no aggregate, but if you look at the videos stonemaker's concrete looks like it has none.


Well,i'd look the same way if you told me that, tell them it should have no COARSE aggregate,in other words just grout.


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## shinyhalo

Canarywood1 said:


> Well,i'd look the same way if you told me that, tell them it should have no COARSE aggregate,in other words just grout.


See, that's good info. Thanks. So there IS aggregate, it's just Fine, not Coarse.

Maybe I should just ask for a sample of their concrete with fine aggregate, the longest set time possible, and 3 inch slump.


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## Canarywood1

shinyhalo said:


> See, that's good info. Thanks. So there IS aggregate, it's just Fine, not Coarse.
> 
> Maybe I should just ask for a sample of their concrete with fine aggregate, the longest set time possible, and 3 inch slump.


 
Slump needs to be 2 -2.5 inches,which is very dry,before adding plasticizer and water.


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## shinyhalo

Canarywood1 said:


> Slump needs to be 2 -2.5 inches,which is very dry,before adding plasticizer and water.


Yes, but the ready mix guy said they already add set-retarder and plasticizer to every batch by default. 8/

They sell it by the strength 3000 psi...4500 etc


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## Canarywood1

shinyhalo said:


> Yes, but the ready mix guy said they already add set-retarder and plasticizer to every batch by default. 8/
> 
> They sell it by the strength 3000 psi...4500 etc


Well,i don't understand why they are adding a retarder to begin with,and since this will be a custom mix,it should be mixed according to your specs,not what they use on an everyday basis.

Years ago concrete was sold by the bag mix,but as you say it's now sold by strength mix's,which allows them to cut back on the amount of the cement actually used,and use additives such as plasticizers and fly ash as fillers,to attain the specified strengths,tell them you want 564 lbs.of cement per yd.and nothing else added to the mix,that's equal to a 6 bag mix or 4000 PSI.


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## shinyhalo

Canarywood1 said:


> Well,i don't understand why they are adding a retarder to begin with,and since this will be a custom mix,it should be mixed according to your specs,not what they use on an everyday basis.
> 
> Years ago concrete was sold by the bag mix,but as you say it's now sold by strength mix's,which allows them to cut back on the amount of the cement actually used,and use additives such as plasticizers and fly ash as fillers,to attain the specified strengths,tell them you want 564 lbs.of cement per yd.and nothing else added to the mix,that's equal to a 6 bag mix or 4000 PSI.


Ahh, I suspected something like that was happening. Using plasticizers to increase the final strength and then cutting back on the expensive cement used to maximize profit. Thanks for confirming it.

The stonemakers video actually mentions they use 9 bag mix.

Ok. Now I have more specifics that I can take to the local retailers of ready-mix.
Thanks.


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## Canarywood1

shinyhalo said:


> Ahh, I suspected something like that was happening. Using plasticizers to increase the final strength and then cutting back on the expensive cement used to maximize profit. Thanks for confirming it.
> 
> The stonemakers video actually mentions they use 9 bag mix.
> 
> Ok. Now I have more specifics that I can take to the local retailers of ready-mix.
> Thanks.


 
Well that makes sense because there's no coarse agg in the mix and they are only using sand you have to increase the cement content to attain proper strength,didn't realize they went that high on cement,but i'm sure they know what they are doing.


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## shinyhalo

*The mystery continues...*

Here are some more quotes from people who seem to know what they are talking about. The second one teaches a course so no specific admixes are mentioned though it is stated that the properties are what matter and that the 3 components added to the mix can be gotten at any ready-mix supplier...

Quote #1 "And if you watch the video on their website stonemakers.net, you'll see its an ingenius technique - yet very, very simple - stacking 2 slump concrete, shaping with shovels, then trowels and carving all in 1 day.
But the mix isn't really concrete. There is no stone aggregate. Which in my opinion is a grout mix - a very rich (high portland content) grout mix with probably some water-reducer and a ton of fiber.
Even if there is some magical pixie dust additives, I know I can do the same thing with the mix I described."


Quote #2 

"Component A added to the mix offers
■Lower (w/c) water to cement ratios
■Easier placement ... open time
■Shrinkage control
■Easier finishing
■Color consistency
■Composition ... no calcium chloride that promotes corrosion of reinforcement of steel

Component B offers
■Extended work time
■Bleed/Segregation control
■Shrinkage control
■Easier finishing
■Easier Placement
■Decreased Permeability
■Improved Surface Appearance, mix stability and composition

Component C " Easy Slick " ( sprayed )
■Surface Viscosity Modifier
■Easy reconstitution and trowel-ability of surface mix
■Concentrated or ready to use"


What I don't understand is how Dave Montoya repeatedly asks concrete experts in his videos "In all your years, have you ever seen concrete like this?" 
So, if all he is adding is a water-reducer and a set-retarder then why wouldn't every concrete worker have seen consistency like this?


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## concretemasonry

shinyhalo -

There are thousands of possible different cementitious mixes used for "concrete" applications. Even the size and shape of the sand is critical.

There are very few that are available or used by ready-mix producers because of the low volumes and high delivery costs (delivery is one of the main costs -often much more than cement, aggregates/sand/rock and time involved in unloading). The larger producers are aware of all the admixtures (accelerators, retarders, water reducers, plasticizers, super plasticizers, etc.), the dosage rates and the timing of dosing versus the use/finishing times), pigments and other factors, so many choose to ignore many products and customers since they are in a volume-oriented business and let those products go to smaller producers or encourage DIYers to buy materials elsewhere. Many concrete suppliers are not aware of the combination of admixtures and timing because of the lack of experience.

In your case, if it is a DIY project or learning curve to become a contractor, you would be best off to get a cheap mixer, buy raw materials, plays with your knowledge and more importantly, the ultimate use and requirements for durability. That is the best learning experience based on the changes you make for the type of product application. The use, experience and techniques are the critical items for use like you propose.

Dick


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## shinyhalo

If I could just find an online retailer of these admixes then I would definitely buy small quantities and experiment.

These guys make tons of different additives, but I can't add any to my shoppong cart lol.
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/product.cfm?mode=c&id=2&did=1


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## Canarywood1

shinyhalo said:


> If I could just find an online retailer of these admixes then I would definitely buy small quantities and experiment.
> 
> These guys make tons of different additives, but I can't add any to my shoppong cart lol.
> http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/product.cfm?mode=c&id=2&did=1


I doubt very much you can buy any admixtures on line,and W R Grace is the largest supplier in the country,and only sells and delivers in high volume to legitimate ready mix producers and some contractors with their own portable mixing plants,as i said before your best bet is with your local supplier.


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## saltworks

shinyhalo.

How did your project turn out? I'm considering doing the same type of project for a retaining wall.
What was your final concrete recipe? Where did you get the rubber pieces to make the stone impressions? And where did you get the staining & sealing materials? 
Do you have any other pointers you can give from what you have learned??


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## stadry

as i recall, the mix design did NOT incl flyash,,, fine aggregate is sand & there is some coarse aggregate ( crushed stone ),,, talked w/developer @ world of conc,,, decent product BUT final appearance depends largely on finisher's skills,,, like it or not, its a proprietary mix design,,, you might consider ferrocement as an alternative


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## shinyhalo

*stone wall*

Being in no hurry since it's my property....
I went another route.

I built a form out of plywood 30" high
I built rebar reinforcements

I had 3" slump ready mix poured in for 1k
I bought real stones and just cemented them to the structure $600
The price to have stonemakers do a 75foot wall I'm guessing would have been 6k


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## stadry

depends where you are - our $ would've been approx $ 4 K


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## vlorniversity

*Stonemakers concrete recipe*

After doing a STRENOUS AND LONG EXHANUSTING research on trying to find out how stonemakers uses concrete the way they do I found a very similar (if not the same exact) method/recipe for their concrete.

Its called a Fly-Ash Scuplting mix:


Dry ingredients:
1 part cementitous mix: ( a comcination of 65% Portland cement and 35% fly ash).

4 Parts torpedo sand


Wet Ingredients:
18 to 24% Total Liquids - (water containing 10 to 20% combination latex or bonding agent mixture). Keep water as low as possible for a stronger bond/mix. Admix adds a little stickiness and helps in bonding layer to layer.

OTHER ADDITIVES:
Retarder/Optional: Used to delay the initial set and allow extended workability (NOTICE ON SOME STONEMAKER VIDEOS THEY SPRAY WHITE LIQUID ON THE CONCRETE. THAT IS THE RETARDER)

Superplasticizer: improve workability t low water content levels. (Be careful when adding. A little goes a LONG LONG WAY.




I hope this helps. It took me several months to get this recipe.


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## Tscarborough

FYI, here is a good place to buy small quantities of pigments, additives and all things concrete:

http://www.blueconcrete.com/


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## Canarywood1

vlorniversity said:


> After doing a STRENOUS AND LONG EXHANUSTING research on trying to find out how stonemakers uses concrete the way they do I found a very similar (if not the same exact) method/recipe for their concrete.
> 
> Its called a Fly-Ash Scuplting mix:
> 
> 
> Dry ingredients:
> 1 part cementitous mix: ( a comcination of 65% Portland cement and 35% fly ash).
> 
> 4 Parts torpedo sand
> 
> 
> Wet Ingredients:
> 18 to 24% Total Liquids - (water containing 10 to 20% combination latex or bonding agent mixture). Keep water as low as possible for a stronger bond/mix. Admix adds a little stickiness and helps in bonding layer to layer.
> 
> OTHER ADDITIVES:
> Retarder/Optional: Used to delay the initial set and allow extended workability (NOTICE ON SOME STONEMAKER VIDEOS THEY SPRAY WHITE LIQUID ON THE CONCRETE. THAT IS THE RETARDER)
> 
> Superplasticizer: improve workability t low water content levels. (Be careful when adding. A little goes a LONG LONG WAY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this helps. It took me several months to get this recipe.


 


Since this thread started on Sept 2012 I''d guess their project is finished.


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## stadry

must be 1 of YOUR friends


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## shinyhalo

Wow, re-reading this post makes me amazed about how little I knew about concrete back in 2012. An awesome technology that has been around for over 2000 years. Since this project I have built another 100 foot long retaining wall and also put a natural stone veneer around my fireplace.

Since others will want to build nice looking retaining walls in the future, more knowledge is always welcome. Thanks vlorniversity.

I'm not sure if you can request "2 inch slump Fly-Ash sculpting mix" from a concrete company, but it's worth a try. Like I said before, I just stuck natural stones to a regular ready-mix concrete wall. I chose this method because stadry and another wise person really hit the nail on the head when they said the final result depends on artistic skill.

The only thing I can add regarding sculpting this type of mix is that local stores sell strong plastic forms shaped like natural stones for walkways and this could be jammed into the surface for a quick outline to carve out.


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## Canarywood1

"I'm not sure if you can request "2 inch slump Fly-Ash sculpting mix" from a concrete company, but it's worth a try"



Good luck with that request, most small producers don't even have fly ash stocked since there are no calls for it, in fact most people don't even know what it is.


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## concretemasonry

Around here, you could not buy such a mix unless you schedule well ahead (a few days) and pick it up in a qualified and sign off to protect the supplier from liability that could be due to the person handling and placing it.

Granted, fly ash is a lightly controlled waste material, but is bought based on past performance AND availability assuming the quality can be maintained. It has some advantages if a ready-mix plant can manage the batching, handling and use of it.

Fly ash is thought to be a low-cost replacement for cement, which is not the most expensive part of a yard of concrete, since delivery is usually the highest single cost compared to the ingredients.

Dick


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## Canarywood1

If you do use fly ash, be sure it's class "C" and not "F".


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## stadry

isn't flyash mostly used in conc paving ? never saw it spec'd anywhere else


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## Canarywood1

stadry said:


> isn't flyash mostly used in conc paving ? never saw it spec'd anywhere else


 We used it quite a bit only when called for in mix designs.
Did a large under ground water reservoir with it last, understand they are using it more now than ever, but mostly in the Midwest and east coast.


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## sundogs

I've been on a personal mission to discover what admixtures will closely approximate the characteristics of the Stonemakers concrete mix. I've already talked to one redi-mix supplier who s fascinated with the idea. As soon as I can get a design that can be used by a homeowner or handyman on a small batch basis i'll post it.
It will require finding a redi-mix supplier willing to sell small amounts of the necessary chemicals. We're talking about ounces, not pounds or gallons that would work on batches the size that you would find typically in a small ( 2-4 bags) homeowners or rented concrete mixer.
You have to remember that suppliers used to dealing with professional contractors sometimes have a difficult time speaking "Homeowner". So be patient and hopefully I can get some scalable mix designs while you're still motivated.


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## Nealtw

You might have to do it the old fashioned way like those companies did , trail and error and maybe come up with something new. What ever you do, it will take time and money and when you get there you will not be giving your secrets away either.

Or you could ask the Russians.


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## sundogs

Look dude. I've got nothing to prove other than I can do it. So what's the wager that I give up the info when I find it?
BTW Fly Ash is generally found in most mix designs and is used to stretch the concrete to reduce costs.


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## Canarywood1

sundogs said:


> Look dude. I've got nothing to prove other than I can do it. So what's the wager that I give up the info when I find it?
> BTW Fly Ash is generally found in most mix designs and is used to stretch the concrete to reduce costs.


Something to think about is fly ash is a by product of coal fired electric generating plants, how much longer do you think they will be around??


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## stadry

*saw this process maybe 3 or 4yrs ago at world of concrete,,, certainly looked appealing but 1 can only do so many work items*


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## Mike B...

This is what I believe they are using along with "SUPER SLICK"


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## Mike B...

This is what I believe they are using along with "SUPER SLICK"
View attachment 673917


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## Mike B...

And possibly a water solvable humectant such as glycol or vegetable glycerin.


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## Mike B...

Soluable


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