# Need some ideas for how to frame this form for concrete porch



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Ok, the customer wants this brick porch completely removed and a new concrete porch (and steps) replaced. My question is... should i do the porch first and come back to do the steps? Any pointers on framing this up? Thanks


 


It should be done as a monolithic pour.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

So all as one pour? Porch section and steps at once?


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Canarywood1 said:


> It should be done as a monolithic pour.


Yup. Order the concrete at no more than a 4" slump so it doesn't ooze out of the steps. I'm too stupid to draw a picture of how it should be formed, but only the top of the porch and the top of the steps should be showing, if that makes sense. 

I'd probably get some accelerator in the concrete too, so you can bust the forms down and finish the sides as nicely as the tops.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

And be sure and order the concrete air entrained,might even order it at a 3 inch slump and start from the bottom up,pour the risers about half full so they have some time to set, then do the porch,come back and finish filling the risers.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I would pour it all at the same time as well, but you need to verify one thing first: Do teh steps currently have frost wall under them as well as the wall? If not, you need expansion material between the two. It's not the easiest thing to accomplish, "dangling" felt in mid air between the two pours, but if you're creative it's not that hard to figure out........


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Well ill will be using the original footer from the brick which is below the frost line. Your saying i will need expansion between the new pour and the footer?


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Also, i wanted to use a form liner to give the riser texture but apparently they have to be special ordered from the the company (proline) and im looking at around 600 for three 8' pieces. 

Any ideas on how i can line the riser form to texture the riser wall w/o spending 600 on the textured liners?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Also, i wanted to use a form liner to give the riser texture but apparently they have to be special ordered from the the company (proline) and im looking at around 600 for three 8' pieces.
> 
> Any ideas on how i can line the riser form to texture the riser wall w/o spending 600 on the textured liners?[/quote
> 
> ...


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TRUEPRO said:


> Well ill will be using the original footer from the brick which is below the frost line. Your saying i will need expansion between the new pour and the footer?


What I'm getting at is as long as the steps and stoop share the same foundation, it will be simple.

I would form the stoop & steps together with 2X material and even line with a smoother plywood if you're concerned about running out of time to strip & finish the faces. It takes some forethought when finishing steps, but a decent concrete mix, coupled with a liberal coating of oil/release agent and having perfect timing are all keys to making it work out well.



TRUEPRO said:


> Also, i wanted to use a form liner to give the riser texture but apparently they have to be special ordered from the the company (proline) and im looking at around 600 for three 8' pieces.
> 
> Any ideas on how i can line the riser form to texture the riser wall w/o spending 600 on the textured liners?


Do you mean a heavy rock-faced stone texture like this?:

http://www.bontool.com/product1.asp?P=STEPLINERFORM

Or just a simple "Stegmier" liner like this?:

http://www.bontool.com/product1.asp?P=STEPLINERS


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

jomama45 said:


> What I'm getting at is as long as the steps and stoop share the same foundation, it will be simple.
> 
> I would form the stoop & steps together with 2X material and even line with a smoother plywood if you're concerned about running out of time to strip & finish the faces. It takes some forethought when finishing steps, but a decent concrete mix, coupled with a liberal coating of oil/release agent and having perfect timing are all keys to making it work out well.
> 
> ...


Yes like the first one. This customer would be so thrilled if i added the textured face at no extra cost. Guess im dreaming..these liners are quite pricey and i heard from one company that they have to be custom made when there ordered. I almost want to use styrofoam like if i was doing some cantilever coping for a pool deck.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

You may want to add a Bond break between the house and your pour.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> You may want to add a Bond break between the house and your pour.



Your referring to expansion joint material?


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Also i have never put a high gloss sealer on a broom finish. The sealer wont effect the anti slip will it? It kinda seems that it would tho...?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TRUEPRO said:


> Yes like the first one. This customer would be so thrilled if i added the textured face at no extra cost. Guess im dreaming..these liners are quite pricey and i heard from one company that they have to be custom made when there ordered. I almost want to use styrofoam like if i was doing some cantilever coping for a pool deck.


The only "stryo" pool coping liner I can think of, or have ever seen, is just like the liners in the second link I provided. The same company actually has the same profiles in a shorter version that are very bendable and work great for a pool, you just need to dig a bit on their site.



TRUEPRO said:


> Also i have never put a high gloss sealer on a broom finish. The sealer wont effect the anti slip will it? It kinda seems that it would tho...?


I've done it with reservation, mostly because it looks strange on a standard broomed finish IMO. It can certainly make the surface a little more slippery, mostly because the water has to dry to the air on it's own rather than soak into the concrete rapidly. It leaves beaded water on the surface longer. You can overcome this rather simply by using a traction additive in the sealer ("Shark-Grip", Sure-Step", etc...). We us the additive in every stamped concrete project we do for safety with little or no negatives...........


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

TRUEPRO said:


> Your referring to expansion joint material?


No,I was thinking about foam board between the wall and pour,expansion at the top.
I don't even know if you would need one jomama45 could answer that for you.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

I've done it with reservation, mostly because it looks strange on a standard broomed finish IMO. It can certainly make the surface a little more slippery, mostly because the water has to dry to the air on it's own rather than soak into the concrete rapidly. It leaves beaded water on the surface longer. You can overcome this rather simply by using a traction additive in the sealer ("Shark-Grip", Sure-Step", etc...). We us the additive in every stamped concrete project we do for safety with little or no negatives...........[/QUOTE]

It will be colored concrete (chocolate) so it only seemed right to give it a seal to really make it pop even tho it is broomed. First time for everything...


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TRUEPRO said:


> I've done it with reservation, mostly because it looks strange on a standard broomed finish IMO. It can certainly make the surface a little more slippery, mostly because the water has to dry to the air on it's own rather than soak into the concrete rapidly. It leaves beaded water on the surface longer. You can overcome this rather simply by using a traction additive in the sealer ("Shark-Grip", Sure-Step", etc...). We us the additive in every stamped concrete project we do for safety with little or no negatives...........


It will be colored concrete (chocolate) so it only seemed right to give it a seal to really make it pop even tho it is broomed. First time for everything...[/QUOTE]

That's completely different than, and I would probably use a solvent based acrylic enhancing sealer as well.

If you're going that far, why not think about using a seamless stone texture stamp on the entire thing, stripping the forms off when it's still plastic, and stamping the faces as well. You won't need the expensive liners then, but you will need some able bodies and a good plan........


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Im not going to stamp anything. But My newest concern is if some areas on the steps are "unfinishable" because if didnt pull the form fast enough, i would have to come back with some high strength filler. This works fine for standard color (grey) but how would i fill and voids when its all chocolate color? Guess i just have to time it perfect or be screwed?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Im not going to stamp anything. But My newest concern is if some areas on the steps are "unfinishable" because if didnt pull the form fast enough, i would have to come back with some high strength filler. This works fine for standard color (grey) but how would i fill and voids when its all chocolate color? Guess i just have to time it perfect or be screwed?


 


You have to pull the risers to finish them,so you may have to mix some grout to fill any honeycomb,and when you pull the rest of the forms,you will probably have to grout,unless your using a special form liner.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Grout with Plant-mixed colored concrete? Not as if i can buy the same color at lowes to grout. Guess i will have to keep whats left in the shoot and add plenty of water to it/keep it in the air conditioning maybe?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Grout with Plant-mixed colored concrete? Not as if i can buy the same color at lowes to grout. Guess i will have to keep whats left in the shoot and add plenty of water to it/keep it in the air conditioning maybe?


 

I'd say you better get the coloring from your supplier then,because your more than likely going to have voids when you pull the forms,happens all the time.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Ok so concrete company should have some dye to sell me and give me the proper mixing ratio? Ill use portland, sand and the dye to repair the honey combs (which should me minimal because ima vibrate the hell out of it)?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Vibrate extremely well, apply plenty of form release, start removing forms as soon as you possibly can, and have enough experience on site to remove and rub out all the faces within 30-40 minutes. It probably wouldn't hurt to leave a wheelbarrow full of extra cement on some plastic on the ground either to "rob" any additional sacrificial cream from. Pouring with the right mix (usually straight bag mixes set faster, yet allow a small amount of bleed at the surface, as well as provide much nicer cream) will make it easy as well. Lastly be sure to re-enforce the sides of the stoop plenty as it's not uncommon for the boards to bow out at the bottom, especially when subjecting them to lots of vibration.

I wouldn't mess around too much with mixing separate grout with dye, it's far to easy to get the color shades off. Just adding a gallon of water mid pour can create enough issues that the color variation isn't acceptable some times.......


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Good stuff there jomama my worries are starting to alleviate. I am Masonry contractor with semi decent experience in forming and placing crete. First time for a set of steps and landing. 

I am also going to fill the middle up with all the brick i demo from the original. As i go up with the concrete, i will fill with more brick in the middle. This will save me on the concrete cost. Would you agree that this will be acceptable?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Ok so concrete company should have some dye to sell me and give me the proper mixing ratio? Ill use portland, sand and the dye to repair the honey combs (which should me minimal because ima vibrate the hell out of it)?


 


Vibrate the hell out of it, and you'll have it coming out of the risers.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Ok so i have a nice Variable speed orbital sander im gonna use. Ill just lower the speed and take extra caution. Ill have 2 finishers and 3 labors out there so hopefully between the 6 of us we will make it happen! If not, see you in mexico


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

TRUEPRO said:


> Ok so i have a nice Variable speed orbital sander im gonna use. Ill just lower the speed and take extra caution. Ill have 2 finishers and 3 labors out there so hopefully between the 6 of us we will make it happen! If not, see you in mexico


 


Sounds like you have plenty of help,just have someone tap the side of the form with a hammer as you add concrete,and you'll be fine,just don't over do it.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Thank you to everyone who help with this project it was a great success with a happy customer in the end.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice, that looks a helluva lot better than it did. Glad everybody is happy.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

For benchmark purposes... I generously added 2 coats of sealer which did fine on the broom finish. There is still plenty of grip and should never cause any slipping issues.


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