# Pool Coping Installation with Concrete Pavers



## Knucklez

i'm embarking on a new project for me.. pool coping using Oak concrete pavers. they are 8" wide by 12" long and 2 3/8" thick. they are being installed on a steel wall inground pool where the steel bond area is 4" wide.

coping sits on top of steel wall and overhangs 1". the other 7 " of block rests in a bed of mortar.

installation is for northern climate.

first few blocks went down but i can see my mortar is like 3" thick .. i need more gravel so my mortar is thinner. also i forgot to brush on bond agent to underside of paver that is in contact with mortar for these first 9 blocks.. hope they hold.

bond between paver and 4" wide steal pool bond beam is made with PL 9000 (because this is the only product i could find that said it is for outdoor use for bonding between concrete & steel, and between concrete and plastic which is the stairs). this glue goes down in two beads, 3/8" thick. 

after coping is set up and leveled, i put a monster block on top to weigh it down so glue doesn't move paver during cure process.

i'm leaving 3/8 to 1/2" gap for grouting. but i 'm not sure what product to use for grouting? i was thinking mortar in bag.. but i really want this project to be successful so am open to suggestions.

pictures to follow later.


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## nap

Pics would be great because of this is like any coping I have seen i think you are setting yourself up for problems in the future. The concrete poured around s pool is usually a integral part of the structure. Without it the walls are subject to loading from the outside due to water infiltration from above but more importantly, the concrete gives a lot of stuctural strength to the wall system.


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## Knucklez

it sounds like you are questioning the base under the paver and maybe are not realizing that this inground pool is NOT made with concrete, its made with steel walls.

the base:
the pool was installed professionally (someone else) and they back filled the excavation with 3/4" crush stoned since they knew i would be installing pavers. on top of the crush stone to within 1" of the pool bond beam (bond beam was about 6" above grade) i put down A-gravel and plate compacted in 4" lifts. the 1" left over is for the bedding material for pool decking and mortar for back end of pool coping. the final will be sloped 1deg away from pool.

the above was described to me by pro so i sure hope its correct 
what was not mentioned was the jointing between pool coping so that's why i'm posting here to see if my plan is good/bad.


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## nap

Not talking about a concrete pool at all. That is a different style than I was thinking of and that is why I asked about pics. 


I am not familiar enough with your style so won't get involved so as to not unintentionally misdirect you.


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## Knucklez

i got a bit jammed up on the coping. two of my gaps ended up being super tight.. like 1/8" wide.. maybe a bit less? not sure how to joint those... parametric sand? liquid epoxy?


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## Knucklez

no worries nap, its all new to me too 

my dog was running up and down the non-gap filled pavers yesterday. they all held.
first test passed! ha


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## nap

this is to bump your thread but also looking for a bit of info on your situation as well.

in the top picture there is the ledge the stone and block are setting on. Is that steel and part of the wall? Is is simply a flat piece folded outward or is it a box of some sort (which would obviously increase it's strength and ability to resist deflection)?

is there some purpose to stack the stone on top of the block below it? 

Personally I'm not sure I would like the squared edge of the top stone. Seems like doing a whale exit (that's where fat people like me kind of leap onto the edge of the pool on your belly and then you pull yourself out with your arms after that) might be a bit uncomfortable. A lower and rounded edge like just the bottom block seems like it would be better for that sort of exit but to me, it would also be more appealing as the resulting lines are simpler. Maybe round the edges of the top stone and eliminating the lower block?


anyway, more commentary than anything.


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## bob22

Nap,
I think the concrete blocks on top are just weighting down the new coping blocks below them as the (guess) construction adhesive holding them down cures.


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## Knucklez

that's right, just weighing it down while glue dries. the lower block is bull-nose coping, 1" overhang. i was told to keep the overhang to a minimum so that accessing the coping grove (on wall, under stone) to insert the winter cover wouldn't be troublesome. actually i don't know if 1" is a minimum or not but seemed like it was.

the bond beam is part of the steel pool wall.. you could say its folded steel, not a box. i was walking on the steel before i had paver on it, was completely solid with no bounce whatsoever.


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## Knucklez

i'll probably be mortaring tomorrow. wanted to do it tonight but time is slipping away. unless i hear otherwise, its going to be mortar mix + bond additive in a cake bag. the mix will be a bit wet cause i need it to flow 2" to bottom of gap. i will still respect the water limit as instructions on mortar package but there is large range.. between 3.7 and 5.7L per 66lb bag.


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## concrete_joe

polymeric no.

i would keep the joints in that 3/8" range. you can use sanded grout, but for 3/8 to 3/4" i would mix it as dry as you can, pack it in well. i also run SS wire in bigger joints to help hold grout. you can swap out some water for latex fortifier (like sika latex-r).

another option is an epoxy grout. harder to use but holds well. a sanded grout can still get into 1/8" space, smaller than that the use non-sanded.

a good sealer should be used after grout drys 24-48hrs.


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## Knucklez

hmm.. better make sure i'm starting with the correct material. when i say mortar in a cake bag and then fill the gaps, i'm literally talking about mortar

http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/MortarMix.asp

it sounds like you're talking is grout.. do you mean this product?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/NonShrinkPrecisionGrout.asp
this grout can be mixed to a fluid state which is good for me except perhaps on the overhang cause i don't want it to fall into the pool so that portion of grouting might be a bit dry and put in by hand if possible. i'm not sure if this grout is good around pool though.


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## jomama45

DO NOT use the second product you linked to, its' an anchoring epoxy, and no matter how stiff you mis it, its' self-leveling. Not to mention, it's far too strong for the application. I wouldn't use any kind of grout that's intended for tile actually, as I doubt it would hold up as well as plain old mortar anyways.....


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## Knucklez

It's finding the right grout that is the trouble. What to buy? From where?

Ya when I read the typical application of the second product it seemed like a bad choice. 

maybe big box stores don't sell what I need. Maybe landscape supply does? I.e where I got the coping stones from.


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## concrete_joe

if its subject to wet and freezing, plain mortar will likely fall apart. if you use mortar then maybe use some acrylic fortifier and then after it drys two coats of penetrating sealer to keep the water out.

sanded grouts are fine for outside. i used it on my 1/2" joints where temps in summer are 110+F and in winter we hit 20F. i put wire in the joints though. freezing water is bad, thus a good seal is needed, it will be fine.


as for the joint area that is over the water, a clay like mixture will work just fine, no wetter than that, force it into the joint, etc. do the full joint at once (dont do sections of each joint and come back to finish, etc), etc.


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## jomama45

concrete_joe said:


> if its subject to wet and freezing, plain mortar will likely fall apart.


"Plain mortars" have been used for decades, longer actually, for this application with great success. You need to know what you're doing to make it work well and last that long, but it's really not rockest science...............


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## Knucklez

jomama, you mean like the product in the first link i made previous? that's plain mortar..


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## Knucklez

this looks like it could work, sold from lowes:
*MAPEI Keracolor™ S 10-lb Sanded Grout with Polymer *

Keracolor™ S 10-lb Sanded Grout with Polymer


For grouting interior and exterior floors and walls
Suitable for dimensional stone, slate, granite, stone agglomerates and most types of ceramic, ceramic mosaic, quarry, brick paver, porcelain, and clay tiles
For medium joint widths from 1/8-in to 5/8-in (3mm to 16mm)
For application in submerged conditions (swimming pools, spas, water features, and fountains) once fully cured
 
https://www.lowes.ca/grout/mapei-ke...rout-with-polymer_g1333405.html?ProductSlot=2


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## concrete_joe

yes, the Mapei S grout should work. for the large gap joints best to mix it as dry as you can but still workable, packing it in. when its close to 1/2" joint i take SS wire and make a loop of it to fit into the middle of the joint while filling it, keeping ends of wire back from ends of joint by 1/4-3/8".

some 3" blue tape may help you on bottom side of joint that in over the water.


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## Knucklez

SS wire is that same wire that us used to bind rebar together in a concrete pad? Cause I got lots of that!


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## concrete_joe

no, SS = stainless steel.


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## Knucklez

what about joints that are 1/2" to 1 " ? that exceeds limit described by Mapei S. with the SS loop can i push it to 1" gap fill?

which grout sealer do u recommend for pool coping application?


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## concrete_joe

i have HF tools SS wire
for those larger gaps you can layer in two loops of wire. make sure the legs of the loop are nice and straight (make loops like the letter U, etc). for those large joints the grout needs to be as dry as possible so to avoid shrinking. you can place a damp cloth over each joint as you do them to slow down the water evap rate thus helping to avoid cracking and shrinking. if you use cloths just be sure its not heavy to avoid grout surface disturbance, wait about 20-30min after filling before place a damp cloth over the joint. you can also reduce mix water by using some acylic latex fortifier for replacing some of the water (like Sika Latex-R). i would not go more than 40% fortifier. 

any std penetrating sealer will work. for a no-shine sealer you can use something like this TileLab Sealer. (you may not need a full gal, they have smaller bottles). let grout dry out at least 48hrs (you have big joints so let them dry good), then soak them with the sealer, wait about 5min, wipe off excess, let dry 8-24hrs, re-coat with sealer, etc.

not sure if you are sealing the coping blocks, if not then application of sealer to grout has to be precise, but easily done, etc.

since its all outside and near water all the time, look for the anti-mold additive you can add to the mix water for the grout.

you'll have a durable joint which will be protected from staining for years to come.

all of the products i mention are at std box stores, etc.


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## Knucklez

that's awesome, i really appreciate your advice. actually, i wish u lived near me so i could hire u. i'm sure there are competent hard scapers in my area but i have tried and failed many times to hire contractors (most i end up having to fire, and it doesn't seem to relate to how many references i get or how much i pay them).

here is my final question.. the reall n00b question..
so i take the SS and form letter U. which orientation do i place it? my guess is the orientation is such that it will help bind the grout and stop it from cracking when freeze/thaw cycle occurs, but honestly i can not picture which palcement the U needs to be to accomplish that goal.


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## concrete_joe

place wire loop lengthwise in the joint. those pavers look to be about 1" thick, so you can layer two loops into the grout, add about 3/8" high grout, add wire loop, add another 3/8" of grout, add 2nd wire loop, then top off the grout. mix grout "dry" as you can but just wet enough so it binds to itself, easily pack the grout, etc. you can add just a tad more so it is slightly higher than the paver, let it dry some, then with the smooth side of a grout sponge (dampen/wet sponge) you can wipe it flat and smooth.

the trick for the wire, the loop should be nice and flat so that no section of it comes up through the surface while being installed. 

you'll see its fairly easy to do all of this.


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## Knucklez

cool thx. 
ps. pavers are 2 3/8" thick


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## jomama45

I'm not sure that this could possibly get anymore complicated. I doubt epoxy grout is suited for that deep of a fill, I doubt the manufacturer of either the coping or the grout would recommend doing this, using a grout/mortar that's stronger than the material it's intended to bond together never ends well, and it sounds like it's going to take 5 times longer than just doing it the easier/correct/cheaper way...........


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## Knucklez

that's a fair point jomama.. i don't know what the thickness this grout can be applied to as it really doesn't say what the max is on the datasheet. I see examples of how much coverage you'll get with differ tiles, the thickest being 3/8", but it doesn't say it can NOT do 2 3/8". i sent manufacturer a message, hopefully they respond. 

far as i can tell, people use typical mortar for this application. but my feeling is i would like to use something really strong to help cover for my amateur mistakes so i am attracted to using a real grout if possible. i'm not too worried for the cost cause hopefully i only have to do this once and a bag of grout is not going to break the bank.


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## concrete_joe

the mapei mentioned is not an epoxy, its a cement based grout.

given the application and environment, simple = fails much sooner than "complicated". if you want it to last a "lifetime" than a few extra steps to bullet-proof the joint is a no-brainer.

std mortar doesnt come colored, but std sanded grouts come in a variety of colors, etc.


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## Knucklez

from the manufacturer:



> Keracolor S is only good for grouts joints up to 5/8” wide or deep.
> 
> We have a product called Ultracolor Plus which can go up to 1” wide or deep. In your case, the grout joint depth exceeds the limit of our grouts.
> 
> Thank you.
> Paul LoCicero


 back to mortar + bonding agent


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## concrete_joe

i have 3/4" wide by 1.125" deep joints on my firepit (travertine pieces). i used std S grout with a SS wire loop in it. air temps have ranged from about 50F to 108F and they get fairly hot when i run the 75k btu burner at full blast, the joints are fine.

use what you want, just saying.


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## jomama45

This is a good example of why you have to be careful taking advise on an internet chat room. You got free advise, but obviously with a little digging, it wasn't very good advise. As I stated earlier, Type S mortar has served this purpose for decades, and on miles of pool coping. No need to re-invent the wheel when you have an easy, cheap, and time-proven method as mortar..........


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## Knucklez

i hear you concretejoe. your 1 1/8" is pushing it, but you have success probably because your install is well done and the material performs better than stated by manufacturer (typical for american product).

my depth is 2 3/8", i think that's pushing it too far and i know i don't have the skill u have :no:

as an aside, on the subject of Type S mortar.. i installed some real brick veneer interior project and brick manufacturer recommended type S mortar. so buttered up brick & scratch coat and pressed brick on. next day, tthey started popping off (i hadn't grouted right away i was going to wait a day). so i failed, thus i hired a contractor who came in, mixed up a bag of Bomix (wall parging?), brushed on bonding agent, then installed and it looks great been like that for years. he grouted right away. so anyway, i'm not super excited about type S mortar ...


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## concrete_joe

well, type-s can work, there are a few colors you can add in if you like. i would still use some acrylic fortifier for some water and also mix it as dry as you can and pack it in, even with SS wire in there, and seal it just as you would the S grout. type-s or S grout, same technique as i mentioned before.

if you really have a color you want from S grout then you could layer in some type-S and then finish off with S grout (layer each joint to completion so the layers bond to each other).

it will look nice and perform well for years to come, so go for it.


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## Knucklez

thankfully my stones are gray and the mortar is grey so i'll be ok not to have to make a consistent colour matching.

i went to rona but they did not have sika fortifier. i'll try lowes tomorrow. i did find type-s mortar and 20GA stainless steel wire. i'll post my pics of what i'm doing when i get into the project hopefully this weekend.


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## concrete_joe

HD carries "Sika Latex-R", that is a fortifier. at least for HD in US, not sure in canada though.


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## Knucklez

Just read the back of Lafarge type S masonry cement. Requires mix of sand. No wonder it never worked for me before. 

Can I just use regular pre mixed bagged mortar?

I found quikrete fortifier liquid bottle.


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## Knucklez

i got Type-S masonary cement & masonary sand...

curious... whats the diff between Type-S masonary cement and Type S mortar cement? hopefully i have correct one, it was the only option


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## Knucklez

i bought masonary sand, bag of Type-S masonary cement says "add sand" .. not "add masonary sand". u see the confusion? so i dunno.. eventually i just say "F-it" i'm using this sand /topping mix stuff.


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## jomama45

If you're using the Type S I think you are, you simply add 2-3 parts mason sand to the entire bag. Or, for smaller batches, mix at a ratio fo 1 part bagged cement to 2-3 parts sand. You cn use the size vessel of your choice, 1 gallan ice cream pails work well for DIY mixing. 

If you're using the sand topping mix I'm thinking of, I don't think it will work well, as it's gnerally Portalnd and sand. W/o lime, or a suitable replacment for workability, it's not going to bond well, much less be very easy to work with.

Don't get too distraught over this, the bag you bought is meant for professional use, where we're buying by the pallet. Even so, it will be exactly what you need for this type of project........


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## Knucklez

mixing masonary cement & sand wasn't as hard as i thought. i knew i couldn't install that much before it drys out so i only took a margin container and filled it with type-S masonary cement. put in bucket. then 2.5 margin contains of sand. says to put between 2/14 and 3 sand, so i thought if i stop at 2.5 i have room to increase to dry out mix or add more water. 

then i put 2 "units" of water.. was a total guess. i had a water bottle and marked 2" off the bottom. filled with water and put in bucket. had NO IDEA if this was too much or too little. then i put mark at around 5/8" above bottom of bottle and filled again with acrylic fortifier. that's a 33%. for the first few blocks i accidently was going 50% mixture.. oops.

then i added some plasticizer.. boy does that stuff work!! a few drops is way too much.

cleaned area. mist dampen blocks. used a piece of wooden trim piece that was 1/4" thick and also a wood shim cause its thick on one side and thin on the other. these two things allowed me to ram pack the joint. i also added in one U shapped stainless steel wire. had to get the hang of it but after the 4th joint it was going pretty good.

after 10min or so i rubbed the joint smooth .. ish .. with a damp sponge. made the joint look good but too much water i think.

at the 20min mark i put a damp rag over it to slow dry time. rag still on it few hours later, probably dry now though. 

two things i see not going as well as i would like. my mix is not consistent enough (i need to precisely control plasticizer i think). also too much ghosting on block cause i'm making a mess. sure hope it comes off easy..


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## Knucklez

the process is going well i think overall. if its OK to keep using this sand+portand "topping mix" then i'm going to keep going with it. 

the only other sand they had at HD and Lowes was kids play sand. i didn't think that was the correct stuff.


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## Knucklez

funny, my wife must have said 100 times how brilliant it was to use rigid insulation ("the floating pink thing") to keep stuff from falling in water. at the 99th time, i finally broke down and told her i saw some dude do this on youtube and it looked like a good idea


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## concrete_joe

nobody asked early on, what type of pool water is it? salt water will attack the cement in the mortar, etc.


any bagged ready-to-use "mortar" is fine. some are type-n some are type-s, doesnt really matter for what you are using it for. these have correct mix of portland, lime, sand. the lime helps make it more workable (flowable) and will harden over time as CO2 hits it.

if its just portland then what you have made is a OPC w/o the larger aggregate. it will likely be hard and brittle where as the bagged mortar will be somewhat softer than an OPC. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_%28masonry%29

if its "masonry" cement then its all the parts less sand. if its this type then just keep going. if its portland then maybe switch to masonry type or venture into adding some hydrated lime (that giant lime bag at lowes or hd, etc).



measure out dry cups or weigh your dry material, place into 5gal pale. then using the mix ratio as said on bag (or initial trial & error) figure out how much water is needed for what you put in the pale. if its say 4cups of water then put into the pale 1cup of fortifier and then add in about 3cups of water, likely a tad less because you want it a tad dryer for the application. add just enough water to reach the thickness you want, but measure what you put in so the next batch is the same.

as for getting the mortar off the pavers, the cement will latch on, try to clean as much as you can off with wet sponge as you go. the final cleaning may be a Sulfamic Acid solution.

not sure why a plasticizer is needed here, that's usually to make it more flowable, which is not what you need. you want it stiff so you can pack it, and once there it stays there, etc.


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## Knucklez

its normal chlorine pool. and the chlorine level itself is very low cause its a private pool, not a public one where they trying to kill everything. you can't even taste the chlorine.


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## concrete_joe

so how's the progress?


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## Knucklez

oh its coming, i'm just slow. busy with day job stuff and i'm also helping some online peeps with high performance motor drive design 

when i dry fit around the stairs cause there were so many corners and such i got it just right after stone was cut. then.. i installed with the glue & mortar and didn't end up with the same gaps, one was ultra tight, basically rubbing the neighbour.

so .. *here's a lesson learned..* i should have used a black sharpie to draw on the the bond beam where i wanted the paver to end just before entering a turn and where i wanted the turn to end on exit. and so on. then i could have placed them in sections around the stairs using my rubber mallet to nudge nudge nudge to get the start & end block right and then even up the gaps for those pavers inbetween.


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## Knucklez

i can place about 5 or 6 feet in an hour. it feels like i'm going at good steady pace. its a lot of work!

i started at the end near the pilon. that was last week. today i started at the first corner and tried to improve my cleaning as i go.. getting better at it :yes:


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## Knucklez

to hold the grout in on the bull-nose end i sort of just holding the stone end with my hand with my fiddle finger along gap. with other hand i ram pack the grout into the end and i use my finger wrapped around the bull nose end to know if the grout is coming out just a bit and that's what i want. i can knock off the excess 1/16" or so after its done. if you grip the stone too much your finger makes an indent into the gap and that doesn't look good finished.


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## Knucklez

after 20 min, i hit it with a fairly wet sponge to smooth out the grout. theres a bit of water here but it works good to smooth out grout. then i clean up paver and put a damp cloth over gap to slow the dry time for less chance of creating a gap/crack due to shrinkage.


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## Knucklez

i've decided to forgo the plastisizer as the dry grout seems to pack fairly well. "flowable" doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## Knucklez

here's a list of tools i am using for concrete paver pool coping install:

- margerine container to measure out dry mix
- small bucket to mix materials
- plastic water bottle with sharpie lines drawn on it to indicate water level
- measuring cup, i fill this with hose water than then i slowly fill water bottle. i don't want to use measuring cup direct because i don't want fortifier in measuring cup cause my wife will want this back when i'm done
- 1 bag type-S masonary cement
- 2 bag masonary sand (basically is sand + portland)
- acrylic fortifier so i can use less water (i have a 2nd line on water bottle indicating where the 33% mark is for this). it also has other handy features like a bonding agent, anti-mold.
- paint mixer drill bit (its not proper mixer for mortar but seems to do the job)
-cordless drill for mixing mortar
- screw driver. i use this to get the mortar mix out of the bottom edge of the bucket
- stainless steel wire, 20 gauge. (see previous posts) used for crack prevention i think
- bag O'rags which i cut into strips. i keep these in a 2nd small bucket filled with water. i use these to clean pavers and then to put over joints to slow drying time & reduce water evaporation from mortar
- 1/4" thick wood trim piece, about 18" long. i use this to pack the mortar
- one cedar shim. i cut the then edge down a bit so it wasn't so thin. other end is about 3/16" thick. i use this for packing mortar in tighter gaps. i actually prefer this over the trim piece for this job but i do use both.
- 6" wide plastic drywall knife. i used this to pack super dry mortar mix into a really really tight gap. gaps shouldn't be this tight :whistling2:
- linemans pliers used to cut SS wire
- rigid pink insulation, floating in pool to catch falling mortart and also a piece for my old knees to rest on while working
- wet sponge for smoothing out gap
-rubber gloves (i was using other type at first but cement leaches through and burns fingerprints off)

i think that's it. Oh, 
- a camera to document my progress :thumbup:


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## concrete_joe

looks really good in those pics. after everything gets a good dry out, then hit it with some penetrating sealer. i like matte finishes as glossy is harder to keep new looking.


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## Knucklez

spent about 5 hours today but got rest of the blocks placed.
near the back, they are done too but not shown in this picture. but they're done, trust me!

need to grout them next but having hard time finding more SS wire. only big box that carries it is Rona. I went to two stores, bought them all out. need more.. always need more.. feed me.. FEED ME!


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## Knucklez

so here's how i installed the pool coping

first i mixed up a batch of "just add water" mortar (type-N ?). this brand i used is Quikrete.the first batch i mixed it up real wet, but not sure if that's a good idea or not. so i started mixing it a bit dryer. used a garden hoe to mix and did only half a bag at a time.










it looks crumbly, but it passes the test. squish about 1/2" on end of hoe and see if it holds vertically.


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## Knucklez

place beside bond beam on compacted A-gravel. i pack it down with my fist and then form it up a bit with this old handled screwed to a piece of fence board "poor man's float"? :yes:

i try to leave it slightly higher than the bond beam










then drop two beads 1/4" thick of exterior grade adhesive designed for metal & concrete bonding.


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## Knucklez

paint on some acrylic fortifier to bond with the mortar bed (no idea if this is actually useful step or not)










and whack it into place and check level- this is the fun part!!


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## Knucklez

i use my speed square to set the gap.









putting the square also down the side to see if it is 90deg to the edge of pool and exactly 11" from edge to back of paver (i do this instead of some annoying string line). careful not to touch the glue!










put one hand on the paver and twist or move as needed while tapping lightly with the rubber mallet


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## Knucklez

put a weight on it to hold in place while glue dries and u done :thumbsup:


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## Knucklez

here's a close up of the stairs i did. i should have tried harder to get the gaps more even but i didn't think of a good way to do that until AFTER i installed (see post #47 for "good way")

the dark spot bottom right is just some water. dog fell in pool and that's where she drags herself out. if only those leaves didn't look so much like nasty frogs...










i spent about 3.5 hours cutting these bricks to suit.


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## Knucklez

i'm too scared to step on them to test. :laughing:


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## Knucklez

going to store to buy pavers & all the material & rent saw & do all the cutting. placing stones. grouting in between & sealing grout. i haven't finished yet, but, i suspect i will be close to 6 days (drying days are extra) by the time its done. keep in mind i have never done this before


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## Knucklez

1000's post :thumbsup:


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## concrete_joe

Knucklez said:


> paint on some acrylic fortifier to bond with the mortar bed (no idea if this is actually useful step or not)


if the paver is a cement paver the acrylic will help bond to the mortar, however, if you added fortifier to some water that you use to mix the mortar with, then really no need to apply the fortifier to the paver, doesnt really hurt, just not sure i would do it as i am usually pressed for time to get things done, etc.

24hrs of dry time, they are ready to step on, easily. 48+hrs and they should be able to take on any foot traffic.

it will look really good once you do the cleanup/sealer and fill in the rest on the outside, etc.

post #55, is that the mix for mortar bed, or grout? the mortar bed can be a bit wetter than the grout. you want some water to wick into the paver, as it does so it pulls in cement which will lock to the paver. i mix mortar beds just dry enough to support the weight of the block/paver, then lightly tap into position. too dry in mortar bed will sometimes leave a poor bond. in your case, the grout joints will lock pavers together so they cant really move.



Knucklez said:


> here's a list of tools i am using for concrete paver pool coping install:
> 
> 
> - rigid pink insulation, floating in pool to catch falling mortart and also a piece for my old knees to rest on while working
> 
> - a camera to document my progress :thumbup:


added tip, the rigid foam board is a good idea, i would modify that just a tad by adding a piece of painters drop cloth, the white cloths that are plastic on one side and felt on the other. cut to size with felt side up so as mortar falls on it latches onto the felt and as it drys and you move the board around none of the mortar falls off, etc. then after each use you can simply throw away the small piece of cloth.

and yes, every DIY project needs a camera.


----------



## Knucklez

patio paver question.. if i put down the #2 bedding sand and place the 14x14x3" concrete pavers can i tarp this and plate compact them into final place a week later? cause i gotz lots of tarps 

i just worry that i won't be able to do all this in the time i have and need to spread it out a bit so trying to strategize a good stopping part and how to break project into 2 steps.


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## concrete_joe

for a patio, its doable. just be careful not to compact too much because you'll have borders already in place and you dont want to compact the field too low. 

however, if its a patio for just foot traffic then you should compact the base, add the layer of sand, and just drop pavers in, and then sweep some fill, no need to compact the pavers, etc.


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## Knucklez

no need to compact pavers? that would be great


----------



## concrete_joe

if compacting, just do it the the base. all depends on type of base material used. a layer of base that you compact followed over with ~2" of sand for pavers, level out the sand layer nice & smooth and place/tap pavers into place. once all the pavers are in place the sand layer cant move, so really no need to compact the pavers. if it were a driveway i would use only compacting base, place pavers in, compact pavers.

the process of leveling the sand layer (using screed) does some compacting of the sand, etc. if you feel the need to "compact" i would use a water drum roller and not a gas powered plate compactor.


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## Knucklez

base is 5 to 6 " of compacted A gravel, compacted in two 3" lifts. the thickness of the base was chosen by local paver supplier. my wife LOVED this job, going round and around, back and forth with the plate compactor. i just used the hose to wet the base as she moved along. 

i have 2 yard bags of #2 sand (this material was chosen by paver supplier). my plan was to use screed bars and place them 3/8" higher than desired finished height and slight slope away from pool. screed the bedding. place the blocks.

then plate compact the blocks (with thick rubber mat between compactor and pavers to avoid spalling, good idea for water drum though). _but maybe i can avoid this step? _

then fill with the highest quality paver jointing sand i can get (hoping to compensate for amateur work here). i'm liking the products from permacon, i think its called XP? not sure if i can source it local though.


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## concrete_joe

hmmm, for just foot traffic i dont see why you would need to compact the pavers. a good water drum roller will set them (or a heavy rubber wheels roller). polymeric sand is popular these days for paver joint fill. silica sand is an option but it likes to float out when it rains. polymeric also helps keep bugs out of the joints too.

i had 700+sq.ft of patio pavers, they just placed them, thats was it, and i never had any settling issues, etc.


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## Knucklez

friend and i just placed a skid and a half of Mega Arbel. they feel really level and sturdy, i'm thinking no post compaction necessary. i'll be more detailed and with pictures another day, am really really tired right now.


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## jomama45

This just came up the other day in a different thread, whether to compact or not. I highly recommend compacting AFTER you install the joint material, especially with polymeric sand. This company probably sells more poly sand than the others combined, read their installation instructions for yourself............


http://www.techniseal.com/web/files/pdf/us_en/191-637_tds.pdf


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## concrete_joe

jomama45 said:


> This just came up the other day in a different thread, whether to compact or not. I highly recommend compacting AFTER you install the joint material, especially with polymeric sand. This company probably sells more poly sand than the others combined, read their installation instructions for yourself............
> 
> 
> http://www.techniseal.com/web/files/pdf/us_en/191-637_tds.pdf


 yeah, they show "compacting" in their directions, but i beg to differ. you dont need to "compact" to settle polymeric sand, you only need to do light vibrating. compacting and vibrating are two different things. but then you ask, what tool to vibrate? i have seen at my local construction supply house a multi-rubber-wheel roller that has a small gas engine on it for vibrating the wheels.

this PDF shows the guy standing in a driveway..........


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## Knucklez

my feeling, at this moment in time, is i would light compact with a plate compactor and rubber mat if the pavers were not reasonably flat. so far they seem OK. we'll see, jury is still out.


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## Knucklez

put down two rows of 14x14x3" concrete paver along front of deck. then i break into Mega Arbel (a sort of flag stone look). there is actually a pattern for Mega Arbel to be placed in. each block is the same but their surface "flag stone" pattern is different. take 3 blocks with different patterns, find the narrow sharp pointy end of each block and put them together thus forming a 3 leaf clover pattern. that's how you start. 

i highlighted the 3 leaf clover pattern i used to start my patio in picture below.










ps. how good does that pool coping look!!?


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## Knucklez

there is absolutely no wobble, they are going down pretty flat. i think the level stone to stone is very constant too, nearly perfect. i might be OK with no post placement vibrate in place (light compaction). if it needs compaction or significant benefit that's fine too, its not too expensive to rent machine, i'm open to the idea. 

you can see with this type of stone that there will be a LOT of cutting involved to fill the voids around the edges. so.. instead of renting a saw, i bought it. dewalt 7" with diamond blade. came with a handy carrying case and 4 metal grinding disks.. i paid AFTER tax ~$230 for it brand new from lowes. i think its cheaper online but i didn't want to wait weeks for it.. as "winter's coming"


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## Knucklez

i am not leaving any gap, i slide the stones right up beside one another. of course there still is a gap because the stones do not have perfect flat edges.. i think i can sweep sand in there... 

(you could argue this post is a lending reason to vibrate patio with jointing sand... then topping up jointing sand after the vibrate)


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## Knucklez

joemama, i read your link and see this bold text


> This step is critical to obtain solid, durable joints. Without mechanical
> compaction, joints will remain weak and fail quickly.


the only other patio i did was using 2" thick cheap concerete slabs, 18"x18". i used polymetric sand, did not compact after. if it failled, i never noticed.

maybe i play it safe and rent machine. i don't mind it costs me a bit more as i am more concerned with compensating for amateur work. the money i saved by DIY, so i can spend a bit on over doing it. i think i might do this..


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## jomama45

concrete_joe said:


> yeah, they show "compacting" in their directions, but i beg to differ. you dont need to "compact" to settle polymeric sand, you only need to do light vibrating. compacting and vibrating are two different things. but then you ask, what tool to vibrate? i have seen at my local construction supply house a multi-rubber-wheel roller that has a small gas engine on it for vibrating the wheels.
> 
> this PDF shows the guy standing in a driveway..........


The PDF shows a bunch of random pictures of different jobs................

Try as you might, you're no expert at these things. Hiring a crew to install some pavers at your house makes you an observer, not a professional. Find a major manufacturer of poly sand or interlock pavers that doesn't recommend using a plate compactor with a rubber mat attached as an intregal part of the installation process to back up your "seat of the pants" guesses...............


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## jomama45

Knucklez said:


> joemama, i read your link and see this bold text
> 
> 
> the only other patio i did was using 2" thick cheap concerete slabs, 18"x18". i used polymetric sand, did not compact after. if it failled, i never noticed.
> 
> maybe i play it safe and rent machine. i don't mind it costs me a bit more as i am more concerned with compensating for amateur work. the money i saved by DIY, so i can spend a bit on over doing it. i think i might do this..


I've personally seen a lot of sand & poly sand failures in my career. The stuff will bridge small gaps and never completely fill, leaving the joint prone to failure after the first winter or two. Even w/o poly sand, if you were to go "old school" and use somethign like silica sand or "Black Beauty", you still want the joints as tight as reasonably possible. 

You can skip the compaction of the joints, and listen to someone who's experience is limited to their own small back yard (despite what you may think, "concrete joe" isn't a contractor, he's just a homeowner no different than yourself) or you can accept the process that has been accepted as the industry standard for decades...............


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## Knucklez

i am easily swayed.. my feeling is it can't hurt to compact after so long as i use the rubber mat and in my DIY experience i have ALWAYS tried my best to do everything proper and not sweat the cost it takes to do it that way. i should stick to this philosophy as it has served me well.

what is your feeling of product Envirobond? has good reviews online. has smaller particles than techniseal which might be good for me cause my gaps are so small. reasonable cost at $18 for 20kg, is available locally from home depot which is a huge plus for me. i think also this was the material recommended by pool installer (though i think he's not really a hard scape guy, my guess is he subs this work and that's what he sees them use).

or no, that it is sold by HD is indicator its not best product? lol


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## concrete_joe

let me say this, the only pavers not done by me is the 1100sq.ft. of versailles pattern travertine. the old ~720sq.ft of concrete valencia pavers was a diy, i removed those and then put them back down elsewhere, have also done a few other ~500sq.ft paver jobs. duly noted, all patio types, and didnt use a compactor to vibrate the joint fill (did not use poly sand fill). 

as i said, compacting and vibrating are two different things. for the OP, simply call Techniseal and ask them why they say to compact, whats the purpose of doing such, is it for compacting the pavers, or just vibrating the fill into the joints, see what they tell you. 1-866-933-3035

as i said before, you dont need to compact, a rolling vibrator is all that is needed, etc.

compacting is used for certain reasons. notice they are not compacting the joint fill, but a vibrating tools helps get the fill in the joints good.
http://www.pavetech.com/guides/complete.htm


but heck, if you feel the need to compact this foot-traffic area, so be it, but be sure the base is 100% otherwise you get dips. also makes it harder to compact when you have border that is set in a mortar bed, that edge of field paver should be set just a smidge higher because the compactor will push them down, etc.

and my experience too many times, the "pros" dont know what they are doing, and/or suggest things that just isnt necessary.

my best advice is, talk to the paver maker, do they suggest compacting for this foot-traffic only area given what else is around the perimeter??


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## Knucklez

umm... post #75, how good those pool pavers look? Holla!

i'll check around for techniseal or permacon jointing sand. big box stores don't supply it and webpage from two local stone yards don't list it (i'll ask tomorrow).


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## jomama45

concrete_joe said:


> compacting is used for certain reasons. notice they are not compacting the joint fill, but a vibrating tools helps get the fill in the joints good.
> http://www.pavetech.com/guides/comp...rself from future embarrassment..............


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## jomama45

Knucklez said:


> umm... post #75, how good those pool pavers look? Holla!
> 
> i'll check around for techniseal or permacon jointing sand. big box stores don't supply it and webpage from two local stone yards don't list it (i'll ask tomorrow).


I can garauntee that the yard you got the Mega Arbel from has polymeric sand, and can guide you in it's installation. If nothing else, read the back of the bag, it tells you exactly how to install it............

BTW, a tip for marking and cutting that kind of interlock is to use some sacrifical paper goods (I like 36" builders paper, or red rosin paper, but 15# tar paper is cheap also) and make a pattern or two the same size as one of the paver units. Simply put the paper template where it needs ot go, and fold or cut it against the pool coping or outside edge.........


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## concrete_joe

jomama45 said:


> I'm not sure you know what a plate compactor even is, because it is exactly what they're using to compact the joints in that link. If you don't know what it looks like, at least read the caption next to the picture, it will save yourself from future embarrassment..............


except for the ones i had, and the one i just sold, correct, i dont know what a compactor is. i suspect you dont know what a vibrating roller is.


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## concrete_joe

me not being a "pro" here on this DIY site, here's another tip that the "pros" probably wouldnt mention surprise. you should treat your base with a bug chemical prior to setting the pavers. the poly sand isnt just for interlocking, its also a barrier to help keep bugs from using the joints as a passageway or home, etc.


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## Knucklez

yep, landscape supplier has permacon polymeric so that's what i'll use when it comes time. i saw lots of landscames there early this morning loading up on all sorts of stuff. popular place!


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## Knucklez

oops, landcames = landscapers (even that is wrong, ha, should have been Hardscapers)

i'm excited to use my new 7" diamond blade angle grinder today. i picked up a chainsaw mask cause it seemed crazy to me not to wear a face mask with this and ear plugs and i'll probably even wear my safety glasses too but i wear glasses normally anyway.


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## Knucklez

i cut in the Mega Arbel along the deck side (where the square pavers are), that is 18' long. it took me 6 hours to do this. i think i was building up some speed and getting a little better at it as i was nearing end of the day.

one thing i learned is really important is to hold the saw straight up and down so you don't cut the block on a angle every freak'n time. lol

i used a piece of plywood as a template worked well. i'm sure the heavy paper you recommended would be more accurate but i just couldn't bring myself to drive to get some. the plywood worked well enough, i just marked the edge with a pencil and transferred this mark to the paver. turns out you reuse the marks fairly often since the pavers originally went down in a standard patern, the left over voids to be filled are also a 3 piece pattern.


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## jomama45

concrete_joe said:


> except for the ones i had, and the one i just sold, correct, i dont know what a compactor is. i suspect you dont know what a vibrating roller is.


Can you answer a simple question?? Are they using a plate compactor to work the joint fill into the interlock in the link you provided?? Are you willing to admit that the advise you are giving in here about the joint fill is actually wrong?


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## Knucklez

post #75?


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## jomama45

Knucklez said:


> post #75?


Do you want an honest opinion??


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## Knucklez

sure


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## jomama45

Personally, I don't care for it. Please don't take that the wrong way, I'm a mason, and have been around this stuff my entire life, so I'm certainly biased. 

I don't care for concrete pavers with a continually re-occuring pattern that's intended to mimic stone, where you'd never see 2 stones the same. For this same reason, I don't necesarily care for patterned stamped concrete either. I like the real thing.

I don't like the outside corners on the pool at the steps either, it's almost impossible to use full size coping stones in the corners when theres' so much going on. We've used regular clay brick in the past with the same detail, and IMPO, it looks a little better. If it were mine, I would have had the aluminum coping put on by the pool compay and poured a concrete ribbon around the pool first.

Tht said, I'd say you're doing a great job with a DIY installation..........


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## Knucklez

no worries, thanks for the feedback. i think its important that you point out what is done well and what can be done better .. useful things for future readers of this thread. i feel like i really learned a lot about mason work and now i have a good healthy respect for how physically hard this work is and how there are elements that take great care and attention to get correct like level patio, proper slopes, gentle curves, even gaps and perhaps to more to your point, an appealing design. 

btw, i did look at the natural stone and yes it is beautiful. it was also 4x the price


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## Knucklez

not sure if i mentioned this, but just for complete story, after i put down the #2 bedding sand, my friend and i lightly compacted it. we walked all over it and also i used my hand tamper very gingerly. originally i wasn't going to do this but pavingexpert.com recommended this way and gave lots of reasons for it. i was convinced, so i followed their instruction


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## Knucklez

FYI, i've used up about half of my 7" diamond blade. and that's with using water to keep the cut temperature low (and to contain dust). i've cut approximately 35 linear feet of 3" concrete patio paver so far. the cutting is going really well actually. i think i did not have to *waste money on renting the gas powered 12"* cement cutter for the pool coping.. i should have used that money to buy this 7" dewalt angle grinder! the only thing the 12" blade gives you is speed because it cuts faster and cuts all the way through, no need to flip it over and clean up the edge.


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## concrete_joe

did that paving site tell you about compacting with a plate compactor?


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## Knucklez

they show a plate compactor. 









http://www.pavingexpert.com/bpvseq01.htm

after reading a lot about it, seems the idea is to use plate compactor with the mat but not so much because you're trying to drive the pavers down, more to vibrate so the sand falls through to the bottom of gap and also so the pavers become more surface flush, or level. the act of trying to even out the heights of the blocks will actually drive them down into the sand a bit, maybe 1/8", so you have to take that into consideration.


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## Knucklez

i still have 3 more skids to go. and a boat load of cutting. 

then i get to do the edge restraints + haunch. a lot of work this patio!!


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## Knucklez

oh, maybe you meant something else. after the bedding was put down and screeded, yes i did a light compaction of the #2 sand bedding. yes this was described by pavingexpert.com










in my case, i used my hand tamper cause i already own it. i didn't slam it down, just lifted it a couple inches above and let gravity take it. light compaction. i think it really helped me actually by keeping the paver level with the existing mortared in place pool coping. cause after i put the paver down and whacked it with my rubber mallet i see i am about 1/8" higher than pool coping or a bit less. so when i go over it with plate compacctor during the jointing process (see previous post) i hope to end up just perfect.


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## concrete_joe

the link you have two posts back, thats a driveway, so yes, compacting would be done.

and as you noted, its for vibrating the fill into the joints which causes a good interlock. however, for foot traffic only areas, a rolling vibrator is all that is needed.


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## Knucklez

Cutting in.


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## jomama45

Coming along nicely...................

Have you found a "rolling vibrator" for rent locally yet????


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## Knucklez

cutting in like that takes crazy amount of time. i don't know anything about your trade, but i bet pool coping and 650sq' of concrete paver would be a 6 man crew, maybe 5 days. total guess.


as for the roller, i haven't loooked as i'm not at that stage yet, but i have rented so many tools over the years and i don't ever recall seeing a rolling vibrator. the idea is appealing though cause the plate compactor is going to be expensive cause i also need it delivered AND i have to go buy a thick azz rubber mat (the "heavy duty" floor mats i bought for this purpose turned out to be paper thin down the center, only the edges were thick rubber).

on the other hand, i do want to level out the patio a bit, like 1/8", and these are 3" thick concrete pavers @54lbs each.. not sure if the rolling vibrator can do that, but i know the plate compactor can. in the end, i will probably go the plate compactor route. i can also use the plate compactor to compact some base as i have another patio to do but probably won't actually put the pavers down until next year .. winter's coming here in canada and all work stops (yah!!)


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## Knucklez

i'm not going to finish before winter.. i will put tarps over it so freeze/thaw does not happen too much between non-sanded joints. i can always shift them around next year as needed.

it is looking great so far though!


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## concrete_joe

not finish what, the pavers?


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## Knucklez

80% of placement of the pavers is done. next year for last 20%, vibrate, then fill with jointing polymeric plus install plastic edging followed by cement haunch and cover haunch with top soil & slope this to existing grade.


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## Knucklez

i found the "thick azz rubber mat" on sale at Lowes for $25. its 4'x4' and will make a good compactor buffer. hopefully it doesn't leave rubber marks all over the blocks.. anyway its a project for next spring.


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## Knucklez

half way through winter, already gone through some freeze/thaw cycles and pool coping is completely solid. this is a good sign.

what i did notice though is the slope i have from pool side patio down to the fence which is about 14" over 5' gets really slippery with ice. now i am thinking perhaps a step down would be better than sloping the stones?

how do i make this though.. i'm thinking forming the concrete and then putting the pavers on the concrete? mortar them in place?

here's a side profile of my first thought


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## ymmoti

That's awesome news, I live in Mississauga, Ontario and I built my own diy inground vinyl pool last fall and will be starting my landscaping and hardscaping this spring. I have been following your thread with great interest and really happy to hear the coping is holding up because i was going to do it your way instead of poring a small footing. I will be watching this tread as warmer weather approaches, Thanks for this. :thumbsup:


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## Knucklez

warmer weather came early. pool coping is 100%, solid. keep in mind though that under the bed of mortar is 3/4" crushed stone 5' deep. pool guy did the backfill this way on purpose because he knew i would be doing coping & pavers.

ymmoti, please post your pictures and work progress!


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## ymmoti

Good to hear it passed the test. I also backfilled with 3/4 clear so I should be ok. I will start a new thread with my inground build when I get a chance.


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## Knucklez

i'm rethinking my paver steps. too much concrete in my original plan and also i'm not sure i can finish it to look nice. 

maybe something more like this: http://www.familyhandyman.com/garde.../how-to-build-a-stone-path-and-steps/view-all


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## chadaz

Nice job knucklez, what program did u use for your paver drawing a few posts ago?? Looks sharp


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## concrete_joe

post #111.
looks ok, but you do not want to see concrete on the riser parts. so, make the concrete run a tad shorter so you can come back and face the riser with paver material. so when you approach the steps you see all the same material...... = nice.


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## Knucklez

that makes sense joe, thx. i'm getting closer to continuing on with the project.


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## Knucklez

chadaz said:


> Nice job knucklez, what program did u use for your paver drawing a few posts ago?? Looks sharp


paint.net


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## funnycreature

Hey Knuckelz!
I came across your project over at TFP and you linked to here for the details. I couldn't really find the exact mix and procedure you used to grout your pavers. Would you mind sharing them? I saw that everything is still good after one winter; how long do you think this will last?
The reason why I'm asking is that I need to replace my pool coping (but reuse the stone) and need advice on how to grout. Judging from the old grout that I had to chisel off I suspect it was some sort of concrete mix.
Any help is appreciated!

Thanks!


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## Knucklez

hey funny, see post 41
Type-S masonary cement & masonary sand and acrylic fortifier for some water and also mix it as dry as you can and pack it in, even with SS wire in there, and seal it just as you would the S grout.

i expect it to last a lifetime


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## funnycreature

Knucklez said:


> hey funny, see post 41
> Type-S masonary cement & masonary sand and acrylic fortifier for some water and also mix it as dry as you can and pack it in, even with SS wire in there, and seal it just as you would the S grout.
> 
> i expect it to last a lifetime


Thanks for getting back to me 
I contacted a few suppliers in the meantime and Sakrete was the only company that replied something useful to me. The told me to use the "Sand Mix/Topping & Bedding Mix" mortar and a mix of water and fortifier (1:1). I have the ingredients but I'm still far from being able to do the grouting (thanks weather and work!)
I might share my results here once I'm done!


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## Knucklez

thanks to some quality help from a friend, my patio is making its way around the pool 
now i am thinking of the paver step i need and 14" retaining wall. i will post pictures when i have some to show the progress.


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## Knucklez

was working on the step. had to revise plan now that i can see whats going on a bit more. i will take some pictures tomorrow after i form it up and place the rebar.

unfortunately the height worked out a bit awkward at 10.5". too big for 1 step and kinda tiny for 2 steps (plus i have limited room for two steps). so i go with 1 step plus a slope... hope that's OK.


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## Knucklez

Compacted the base. Formed up step. Bend rebar. Poured concrete. Wife made sure concrete was good and settled. Took 8.5 bags. 
I got the bags the night before. but otherwise would u believe this took me 4 hours? Time includes setup and tool cleanup.


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## Knucklez

hmm.. how to lay the pavers on the concrete slab? on the top half the paver will be on mortar and other half paver bonded to concrete (similar to pool coping). but on the step down below, its like 4x3' or there abouts. i was going to mortar the pavers to the concrete but i read now that this might fail because of freeze thaw? not sure how to proceed..


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## Knucklez

going back to a conversation about rolling vibrator.. i finally found out what this is. its used for heavy compaction like a driveway, not really what i want to use on a pool deck.

more info here: http://idealconcreteblock.com/tl_fi...paver-installation/Cont_Installing_Pavers.pdf


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## Knucklez

Knucklez said:


> hmm.. how to lay the pavers on the concrete slab?


looks like its done with a crap load of paver bond. also for the single step that i have, the bull-nose over hand, on the under side of that should be cut a drip line. 

like this:
https://www.icpi.org/resource/detail-drawing/icpi-19-steps-concrete-pavers


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## concrete_joe

Knucklez said:


> going back to a conversation about rolling vibrator.. i finally found out what this is. its used for heavy compaction like a driveway, not really what i want to use on a pool deck.
> 
> more info here: http://idealconcreteblock.com/tl_fi...paver-installation/Cont_Installing_Pavers.pdf


see http://www.boarhogtools.com/product/HT-EVPC120H

use a Sika acrylic bonding agent, then mortar to bond paver to concrete. when concrete is new you should give it a light scratch finish for mortar to latch into, etc. exposed brick walls, steps, etc, are out there and hold up well, but freezing water can loosen items as we have all seen before.

you might think about just bonding/mortar the perimeter, then add just enough sand so that the field pavers are at the right height, this allows for things to move some if there is freezing water, leave some weep holes around the sides, etc. they also have bonding adhesives too.


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## Knucklez

i hear you, but my step would be covered in just 4.5 blocks. so i can't really glue down a perimeter soldier course and then float on sand the middle. i could if the area were bigger or my blocks much smaller. so i'll try the paver bond method see how it goes.


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## Knucklez

finished the polymeric and tamping process. there is definitely a trick as a DIY'er.. lots of places say that you can spall the concrete pavers and/or ruin the plate compactor if you do not put a neopreme mat on the compactor. all well and good, but GOOD LUCK trying to find one. 

what i did find that worked in the end just fine, is cheap and easy to get, is a 12' long by 4' wide strip of old carpet. i put that on the pavers and then ripp'd around with the compactor. worked great!

i used Tekniseal RG+ as the polymeric. went easy. no ghosting and i didn't even water it properly.. you're supposed to gently shower but i was blasting away with the flat setting on hose. not good. still turned out fine though 

pictures soon...


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## Knucklez

[QUOTE bonding/mortar the perimeter, then add just enough sand so that the field pavers are at the right height[/QUOTE]

in the end, this is pretty much what i did. your idea good, my idea bad. :devil3:


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## Knucklez

just went through another winter. pool copping no change, patio no change, patio step no change. all's well that ends well. during the winter i see some ground swell due to freezing water in the soil and so the slope chanages and then the sun will come out and the snow will melt. thankfully i put JUST enough slope that the snow still melted AWAY from the pool.. something to keep in mind. to the naked eye the slope i did looks perfectly level so what i did wasn't much.. but is enough


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## Knucklez

FYI, not sure if i stated this explicitly .. i ended up not using a rubber mat during compaction. I got a 4' wide 12' long roll of old garbage carpet and used that instead. worked great, no marks on pavers, easy to move around. 

anyway, some 5 years later and pool coping & patio still in great condition. but i did learn something through the test of time worth mentioning... pool gets a lot of sand in it! why? because the ants push the polymeric sand up and wind blows it in. yes the sand is supposed to solidify. the surface sand definitely is solid but ants push lose sand through it and make their mounds. i battled the ants for 2 years and eventually gave up. so now my pool strainer basket has a sock over it to help collect the sand to ease the ware & tear on the main filter.


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## Knucklez

7 years .. pool coping still like new. no complaints.


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