# Help! Water droplets on the ceiling!



## RDS (Feb 29, 2008)

My first thought is ice damming on the lower edges of your roof, causing meltwater from higher up on the roof to back up under the shingles, leak into the attic and from there seep through the ceiling. What's the state of your gutters -- are they filled with snow and ice?


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## Brik (Jan 16, 2007)

Yes, it could be ice daming as suggested. Any thoughts as to the tempature of your attic versus the outside temp? Your goal, to prevent ice dams, is that your attic temp (the temp of the underside of the roof, is the same as the outside temp.

My thought is that its condensation. Think about a cold beverage on a humid day. Water condenses on the glass. This may be the same effect you have going on.

As you are taking and old towel to dry off the area feel the ceiling - Is it cold? My guess is its very cold. So cold that it is causing any moisture in your room to condense on the ceiling. What would be causing it? My guess is that attic insulation is not installed correctly and air from your soffits is not reaching the attic but instead is coming under the insulation. It could also be lack of insulation, sagged insulation, or improperly installed insulation in the wall.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't have gutters. There is a little bit of an ice buildup at the edge of the shingles. Not very much though.

I'm more inclined to think it's condensation. Not positive though. 

I wiped some of the water away and yes the ceiling is very cold where it meets the top of the wall. A little distance away from the wall, the ceiling is almost room temperature. There's a big difference in temperature.

In a little while I'm going to empty the shelves and toys out of the closet where the hatch is. I'll set a thermometer up there and check it later. I'll also try to get a couple pictures of what it looks like.

Thanks for your help you guys. I really appreciate it. If I can get to the root of the problem right away, maybe I won't have to replace the drywall.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> Last year I went up in my attic and sealed it...


What, exactly, was "sealed"?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The baffles you used are supposed to have an additional Windblock added, for more money: http://www.adoproducts.com/wind.html
The foam baffles are only 1/2 of the system. The other box store sells these for the same price as just the baffles: http://www.bergerbuildingproducts.com/productsAccuvent.html These vent 25% more air per bay, and have a built-in insulation block. 

The outside moist air is condensing on contact at the insulation over the wall because the wall is not insulated enough there. 
Solution: either blocking method, or rigid insulation on edge, or: http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/96/961110.html
Be safe, Gary


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Do any of your windows have condensate on them?

What is the humidity level in your house.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

GBR in WA said:


> The outside moist air is condensing on contact at the insulation over the wall because the wall is not insulated enough there.
> Solution: either blocking method, or rigid insulation on edge, or: http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/96/961110.html


Perhaps. But we do not yet understand (for certain) the mechanism which has made things so much worse since the additional insulation was added...


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Yes we do.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

> What, exactly, was "sealed"?


I used Great Stuff to seal the areas where electric wires and pipes came up into the attic. Also at the tops of the interior walls where two pieces of drywall meet. 

There is a space that is about 9" wide x 10' long between the bathroom and kitchen walls where the vent pipe for the water heater comes up from the basement and continues up through the roof. (not the white pipe you see in the picture) For the length of the 10' wall between the two rooms, there is no drywall over that space. It was open to the attic and heat was pouring up into the attic. I covered and sealed that. 

Here is a picture of part of it:









I used Great Stuff to seal around the bathroom vent housing. The housing was covered with a batt of insulation and didn't have a pipe attached to it for the air to go outside or into the attic. That is now vented to the outside. 

If I remember right, I put 2 layers of reflectix and 2 layers of R-13 insulation on the hatch cover to insulate it. Then I replaced the seal that it rests on.

Once I got all of that done, I could notice a big difference in the warmth of the house and it didn't feel as drafty near the floor. I finished it in January, so we had over a month where the temps were colder than what we have now and there was no evidence of condensation on the ceilings during that time.

The humidifier is turned off and the air seems to be pretty dry. The windows don't have any condensation on them. 

Thanks for the links GBR. I wish I had known about the Windblock while I was up there working. I didn't see them in the store when I bought the baffles. The gentleman who blew the cellulose into the attic didn't mention anything being wrong with using the fiberglass. 

In the third picture of post #1, you can see where the bays have insulation that goes all the way to the baffle. The guy who put the insulation in said it would be better if he pulls those batts back about 3 or 4 feet away from the soffit opening to fit more cellulose between the roof and the drywall/trusses, make it deeper. 

I told him I'd try to get some of them pulled back so he wouldn't have to do it. I only ended up doing about 4 or 5 of them. But when I pulled the batts back toward me, the little pieces of insulation that were between the baffle and the top plate came out too. So I had to crawl back in there (it's a low-pitched roof) and stuff those pieces back in using a 4' long piece of pipe to reach that far. 

Is it possible that the same thing happened to the insulation guy and he didn't put the pieces back between the baffle and top plate? 

I doubt it as he seemed like a very honest and knowledgeable person. So I don't want to insult him by asking about it. 

I left my ladder at my mom's house, so I can't get the temperature of the attic until Sunday. 

Sorry this is so long-winded.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

1) is this diagram correct?

2) Where is the vapor retarder (if any) in the attic?


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

That's very close, except that the fiberglass batt insulation is pulled away several feet from the soffit opening so that the blown in insulation is in contact with the drywall below.

Like this:


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

So there is no vapor retarder at the attic floor? (Great pictures BTW, very helpful).


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Maybe the OP assumes the inside paint-job is sufficient as a vapour retarder...but in Michigan?


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Is this correct?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Brik said:


> My thought is that its condensation. Think about a cold beverage on a humid day. Water condenses on the glass. This may be the same effect you have going on.


agreed, what if she removed the soffit panels and attacked it this way?
it SHOULD do the trick, and keep her out of the attic as well.
yes? it'd stop air infiltration under the insulation, sealing the whole area between plate and baffle bottom.

DM


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

> So there is no vapor retarder at the attic floor? (Great pictures BTW, very helpful).


The only vapor retarder it has is the paper on the fiberglass. 



> Is this correct?


Yes. Thanks for the drawings. 

Working on it from the exterior of the house would be great. I wouldn't have to disturb the blown in insulation up there.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

According to the OP, before there was an air path from the soffit to the attic, there was no moisture problem evident at the ceiling/wall junction.

I think what may be happening at this house is _conductive_ heat loss through the wall structure to the now better ventilated (and much cooler) soffit areas:


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Update:

I took the soffits out and sure enough, there was no insulation on the top plates. When I reached my hand in through the soffit opening, there were large areas where there was no insulation covering the drywall. 

So where the water droplets were forming on the ceiling, there was no insulation above that part of the drywall. 

What a time-consuming, expensive pain it has been fixing this problem. But I'm hoping to be done soon. I just have to finish putting the new soffit in.

I'll post some pictures soon.

Barb


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## creamaster (May 11, 2008)

I think these guys are right on track. I hope I don't have any condensation issues like you are having but I had a similar situation where my original batt insulation was stuffed into the eave. I put in baffles and later when replacing the soffits I added 2" poly foam and great stuffed around the baffle and foam to try and make my own wind stopper. Im praying with the cold weather approaching this works.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> Update:
> 
> I took the soffits out and sure enough, there was no insulation on the top plates. When I reached my hand in through the soffit opening, there were large areas where there was no insulation covering the drywall.
> 
> ...


Since you've shared some pics with ME via email, I can say you've done a FANTASTIC job! It should do what you need it to without moisture, and the new soffit looks great! (hurry up and post those pics so these guys can see!)

creamaster: You've done basically the same thing as I did here building my home, except I cut out 1" foam shapes to surround the baffles, then used GSFoam to seal it from the inside before the new ceilings went up. You should have no problems the way you did it. Po)

DM


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Good to know you got it fixed. My second part on post #6 nailed it..... lol. Notice the figure drawing in the last site there.

Gary


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Thanks Gary, those websites have a lot of useful information.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

I guess (unless I missed this in the thread somewhere) that the "honest" insulation guy really screwed up here - you had many bare exposed sections of drywall? Did the check clear? gma3rjc - you may want to gather all those great pics and documentation (like this thread) and talk to the insulation guy about making this right (especially if you have some damage / repairs to deal with). Plan B - small claims. Not trying to be a troublemaker but it's these guys that drive you to DIY. You were all over this - but imagine you get your attic done - everything seems great - then you take off on 2 weeks vacation and come home to find parts of your ceiling on your floor. 

GBR - those accuvents - is that a relatively new product? I wish I had found those when I did my addition a couple years ago. I am a scrounger so I used "blocking" made from spare parts - 1/2" plywood pieces from the window and door rough ins - cut to size - I drilled a half dozen 1" holes thru the top edge or each one before nailing up between the rafters. I covered the holes with a small piece of galv hardware cloth / screen. Then sealed the pieces around all 4 edges with a bead of spray foam (from the inside). I seem to get good air flow in just above the layer of R14 roxul insulation that sits over the wall (flush against the edge of the plywood). Also put up duravents in case I add some blown in stuff one day. Overall it was pretty tedious work but it seems to work really well so far (going into its 3rd northern Ontario winter). I dedicated a few hours to assembling almost 50 pieces like this. There's some satisfaction to using up the extra parts - but a prefabricated solution like the one you posted would be up there now if I had found it:yes:. Or maybe I just didn't know where to look. If I recall similar items were available across the pond (UK) but not in US or Canada - marketed mostly for cottage style eaves, I think? If I survive this project and get crazy enough to tackle another, this item is on the list.

Anyway just throwing in my 2c - it's very cool to find a thread like this and see how so many of you are all jumping in and solving a problem like this to help someone out. I'm glad this one is resolved. At the same time it's sad to read about another contractor that does a crappy job, if in fact that is the case (it kinda looks that way).


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

From the Library: http://www.adoproducts.com/duro.html

http://www.adoproducts.com/wind.html

http://www.adoproducts.com/provent.html

http://www.bergerbuildingproducts.com/productsAccuvent.html

http://www.owenscorning.com/around/ventilation/pdfs/VentSure.pdf
Most are from research 1-1/2 years ago.

Gary


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

Gary thanks for the information - very helpful


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

You're welcome! Try to locate the continuous soffit vent* close* to the fascia for optimum air pressure without rain or snow that blows up next to the wall. The punched alum/vinyl only get 4.7 NFVA- would need all vented to make the required 9NFVA per ft.
The round 3-1/2" would need to be tight touching to get the 9NFVA, which may look rather odd.... 
pp.616: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8...page&q=attic airflow with gable vents&f=false

http://files.buildsite.com/dbderived-f/owenscorning/derived_files/derived92755.pdf

http://www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/intakeSoffit-specs.shtml

http://www.lomanco.com/ProductPAGES/CirkVents.html

Gary


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Sorry it's taken me so long to post the pictures.

I ended up taking the soffit out and accessing the soffit openings from the exterior of the house. Fortunately, I was able to borrow scaffolding from my brother. Boy did that help a lot!

What a bear it was getting the old soffit out. It was aluminum and all of the pieces were riveted together. It was nailed to the ledger board on the house with short, twisted, round headed nails. Those wouldn't come out for love nor money and the recip. saw just bounced around on them. So I wound up cutting into the aluminum and then pulling and tugging on it until it 'ripped'. 

What I found was no insulation over most of the top plate in the front or back of the house. When I looked in through the opening and reached in with my hand, in a majority of the bays I could feel nothing but bare drywall under my hand - no insulation as far as I could reach, about 8-10" I'm guessing.









Has anyone else ever seen this kind of fiber board under the siding on a house, in place of OSB?

A few bays had some insulation over the top plate. But with the baffles installed, there was only room for about 1" of fiberglass.









I put the baffles in when I sealed the attic, before the cellulose was blown in. Up until that point, the soffit openings were stuffed with insulation.

I thought they were necessary for ventilation, but didn't realize that there wouldn't be enough space under them to properly insulate the top plate. 

And even though I REALLY hated to do it, I cut out as much of each baffle as I could reach and replaced them with core-plast, which is similar to corrugated cardboard, but it's made of plastic.

Each piece was pressed up against the sheathing, or close to it. 

It serves 2 purposes. One, it acts as a baffle allowing the equivalent of 5 square inches of air to pass up through it from the soffit up into the attic. Probably more than that because there is a small gap between the sheathing and the core-plast in most of the bays.

And two, it kept the foam from attaching to the underside of the sheathing. This was important to me because if I ever need to have the shingles and sheathing replaced, I don't want the foam to be pulled off along with the sheathing. The core-plast provided a barrier between the foam and the sheathing.

If you look closely, you can see the small holes in the end of the white core-plast. I don't have a good picture of it before the foam was sprayed on. I'll look for a scrap piece tomorrow and post a better picture of it. 









Barb


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I ordered the 2-part spray foam from the Foam It Green website. 

In the kit, they included a Tyvek full body suit, goggles, shoe cover booties (not a good thing to wear while climbing an aluminum ladder), gloves, 15' hoses, the nozzle and extra tips. 

Since the tips have to be replaced once the nozzle is unused for 30 seconds, I ordered an extra bag of them.

It sure was easy applying the foam. Messy, but easy. 

My only problem was that I had to have my head up under the eave to see where I was spraying, and the nozzle was up fairly close to my face part of the time. So that made it hard to spray a nice, consistently thick layer of foam that looked nice. 

It gives off a toasty warm heat for a little while after it's been sprayed. 

Here's a picture of the boxes. They're sitting in my mom's attic. I had a lot left over, so I've used it to seal her attic and the rim joists in her basement. That's Great Stuff Foam on the seams of the attic floor boards. And it's all being cut out because the floor boards have to be lifted.









The tanks have to be left inside the boxes because they tip over easily. They look just like the propane tank on a gas grill. 

When they were full, they each weighed 60#. But they're connected by the 15' hoses at the nozzle, so it takes two people walking fairly close to each other to move them anywhere.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

After finishing the foam, I put new F-channel and vinyl soffit up. 

Like most things, it was a little more involved than I thought it would be.

I expected to put new F-channel under the ledger board and use the 1/4" F-channel that the aluminum soffit came out of on the back of the fascia.

Well, the channel and soffit panels available today are 5/8" and don't fit into the old 1/4" F-channel. An employee at Lowe's said, "You can special order the size you need". When I called the store and talked to another employee at the contractor's desk, she said manufacturer's don't make different sizes. :icon_rolleyes:

But I couldn't remove the old 1/4", because it's part of the fascia.

This is the best picture I have of it. Sorry it's so dirty. It's hard to tell, but the F-channel and the fascia are formed from one piece of metal.









Here, you can see that there is no wood behind the fascia and that the rafter tails don't quite reach it.









I cut 2x3" boards and put them in behind the fascia, between the rafter tails. That gave me something to attach the new F-channel to, which I put in directly in front of the old F-channel. That sounds weird, but it turned out alright. 

My only other option was to remove the fascia, F-channel and drip edge under the shingles and replace all of it. Maybe the drip edge could have been re-used. 

I didn't do that because I was running out of nice weather and as slow as I am, I would have been out there in January working on it. Plus, I was pretty sure it would look okay.

One nice thing that came out of all of this is that now I can hang gutters on my eaves. I tried one other time, but there was nothing behind the fascia to screw the brackets into.

I'll take a couple pictures of what it looks like now that it's all done and post them later today.


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## dpug (Nov 12, 2021)

hi i know its an old thread but just wondering if what you did fixed the issue I'm having the same trouble


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