# Ruud Service Manual, Pros don't want me to understand my system



## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm looking for a Ruud service manual for Ruud 80% Gas Fur (UGLG-05EAUER). Any leds on how to get one (online would be good) would be appreciated.

Once I mention I'm just a homeowner or DIYer, I get no help on tracking it down. I just want to understand the system and error codes. The sky high prices I've been charged for ignitors installed by high school kids makes me want to take the time to understand my system.

I'll never understand why the pros are so protective of their field. I'm sure if they were told they could not change a spark plug in their car and to get a pro they'd throw a fit, yet they have no trouble thinking I should not be allowed to do anything but change my filter on my HVAC, let alone ask how something works.

Thanks


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Funny thing is, I pay to have the plugs changed on my car and truck.

You may be able to find the installation manual for your furnace on line.

It will have a trouble shooting section.

You also should have the LED error code chart on the inside of the blower panel of your furnace.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Bryant sent me a factory manual for free for my 83% eff. furnace. Sequence of operation, schematics, spec's, the whole bit.

Speaking of protection, indep. auto repair shops have sued auto manufacturers for schematics, connector pinouts, etc.; I don't know if they were successful.


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

Here is a link to Rheem who makes Ruud

http://www.rheemac.com/main_about.shtml

They are located in Ft. Smith AK. Give them a call and explain your situation. A few years ago I had the same proble for a customer of mine. They either transfered me or gave me another number to call. But I got the manual. Ask for the owners and installation manual. They are not the same.

Good luck


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Maybe its just me, but somehow asking questions on HVACs get the pros upset (probably didn't help were I posted my question on a different site) Not to say all pros are that way, the ones that help and educate are great!!!! 

Right now, we're just out of the heating season and one of my furances will not fire. Since I'm in no hurry to fix it (will not need heat until Oct - AC works fine), I thought I try the simple stuff. Ignitor was ok (not an open circuit) even tried a new one. I think its the pressure switch, so I'm trying to understand how it works. I've learned that I can't simply jump it to check it, since it appears to NOT want to be closed prior to startup - Anyway, just trying to fingure out whats busted so if and when I call the tech, I can avoid a 4 hour labor charge on something simple.

Furance is old, so I thought it would be good to try to understand the whole system


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Ruuduser said:


> one of my furances will not fire.
> Ignitor was ok (not an open circuit) even tried a new one.
> I think its the pressure switch


Most of us "speak" the Schematic Language so post one if you can get it.

With my Bryant and the manual, since '92 I have replaced the blower motor capacitor, the inducer motor and the hi-limit switch. I diagnosed a gas valve problem but had a tech replace it.


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

When there is a call for heat the inducer motor will start and a vacuum should be sent to the pressure switch. These pressures are measured in inches of water column. If you look at the switch it will tell you thew value somewhere. around 1.0 to 1.5 in wc +/- and a manometer is used to measure this value.

Check voltage to the switch and out of the switch. If you don't have voltage in/out you have either a switch issue internally of a draft issue. To check the flue for restrictions all you have to do is loosen and slightly remove the pipe off the inducing motor and recheck the switch for voltage in/out. Approx 24 Vac.

Heres the problem the real first step is to measure the vac pulled also known as neg pressure created by the inducer motor. You can jump wires all day, and if the inducer is not producing what is needed. A manometer is needed here as well.

So see some techs can help but as I have described it can get pretty involved..not like a spark plug. Some techs are a little protective

Just start with what I have told you .. checking voltages, checking restrictions in the flue.

What I do is right after the inducer comes on I jump the switch and if it make the ignitor come on then it is time to find out if it is a restriction in the flue, a bad switch, inop inducer or even a control board

I have had alot of rheems where the inducer was just not coming up to speed and where the drain has been clogged

Good luck


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Yoyizit - speaking about inducter motors, did you replace the whole unit or just the motor. I have a new one waiting to install (the original has a crack - composite design). The new one is aluminum. I was going to have a tech install it, but it actually looks easy to install; however, there is no gasket for the flue connection. It looks like there is a fiberous gasket of some sort on the inducer that's OEM in the furance. Did you seal the flue connection some how??


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks Plumber101 - I've had a crack in the junk composite inducer for a long time, so I thought that the crack shouldn't be the problem. But after reading your post, maybe the crack was effecting the pressure for sometime, but now it finally put it over the edge. I'll try your suggestion (the jump after start) before I pull out the inducer. If it starts with the jump, I'll then put the new inducter in, then see if its starts - maybe could save me from changing out the switch. I need to figure out how to seal the inducer to flue before I tackle this.

Thanks guys


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## kennzz05 (Nov 11, 2008)

seal with red rtv silicone you can also substitute it for a gasket, sparingly


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Ruuduser said:


> Yoyizit - speaking about inducter motors, did you replace the whole unit or just the motor.


Just the motor: $130 for the part.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks.

Time to stop paying for the simple stuff.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Some Pro's are not real good at communicating with people who don't understand the technical jargon we use. I have to work real hard to get to a base level with my apprentices. Just like anything else you have to shop around until you find someone who is willing to help you. You have got pretty good info so far. If you have a manometer your unit probably has a -.32 "wc pressure switch. Rheem/Ruud has a lot of failures with them. Not all Pro's are defensive, it is scary to hear what crazy ideas people come up with to solve problems. If I don't feel comfortable with a posters wording I won't get him hurt by giving him advice beyond what I consider safe.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

I need some education on red rtv silicone. Is red used to indicate a temperature range? I'm guessing it would be good to get something that can handle 600 F. I'm sure there are some rtv that are more for 200-300 F range?

I've measured the outside temp of the flue to be about 250 F. Seemed low to me - could be conducing heat so well that its misleading, so to be safe, I'd assume the true temp might be over 400 F.

Also, any good "hands" on books for HVAC. More of a journeyman type than technical (tricks of the trade).


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

I don't have a manometer.

I've read where people suck and blow on the tube of the pressure switch to listen for it working - don't know if I want to try kissing that thing and getting man spit in there. I think I have an old syring that came with my son's baby advil. I could use it to put a constant vacuum on the switch.

I'm really starting to think that the crack in the case is doing in the vacuum. I was thinking of filling the crack with RTV goo before I go to the trouble of replacing the inducer (I have the new inducer, just collecting dust for the time being).


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Ruuduser said:


> I've measured the outside temp of the flue to be about 250 F. Seemed low to me - could be conducing heat so well that its misleading, so to be safe, I'd assume the true temp might be over 400 F.
> 
> Also, any good "hands" on books for HVAC. More of a journeyman type than technical (tricks of the trade).


An 80% with only a 250°F flue temp? Problem there. mat be caused by crack in inducer housing. Is this unit vented out the side of teh basement?
If so, is there a power vent that the furnace hooks to?
If so, is there a barometric damper in teh flue pipe?

Jounyman books, are technical books.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Change the inducer, it is unsafe and needs doing anyway and is affecting the draft and they slow down with age. RTV silicone is high temp and should be available at an auto parts store like NAPA.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> Change the inducer, it is unsafe and needs doing anyway and is affecting the draft and they slow down with age. RTV silicone is high temp and should be available at an auto parts store like NAPA.


Correct.

But, if its a side wall vent, without a power vent.
That may be what caused it to crack.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I have changed dozens of them and they were made of bakelite and it was a bad idea. The new ones are cast aluminum. We stopped sidewall venting mids as it wrecks the siding.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> I have changed dozens of them and they were made of bakelite and it was a bad idea. The new ones are cast aluminum. We stopped sidewall venting mids as it wrecks the siding.


I like when I get a no heat call.

And have to explain that the inducer of an 80 isn't a blower.
And that the strong wind, is causing their no heat problem.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

This one is in the attic. Vents right to the roof (straight up about 5 feet. I was using a cooking temp prob and just touching the pipe (that was before it quit).

I'll be working on this a little bit each weekend. I'll look at the circuit board this weekend for code errors and try to see if I can confirm the pressure switch is ok before moving on to the inducer What's nice is that I have two identical systems, so I can watch and measure the voltages in the good one for comparison.

If I do fix it or dont fix it, I think I will still call in a tech. I really want to run a scope up the heat exchanger, since I dont think that was ever done. In the past the techs did maintainace when it was really hot and they wanted outta there as fast as possible, I have a feeling it never got scoped (and if your over 50 remember you need to be scoped too  )


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Looking at the new inducer, there is a fiberglass-like gasket on the case that bolts to the furance wall. Is that surface left as-is, or do you also put a coat of RTV seal on it. I'd assume no RTV since it has a gasket.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Remove the old inducer, sand off the remnants of the old gasket with sandpaper, put a dab of RTV silicone on the furnace in several places so the new gasket won't fall off when you go to install the new inducer.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the info.

Looks like $$$ posts are ok in this forum? I live in an area that seems to be sky high in service costs, so I'm always cautious of the work I get done. As mentioned, I have two identical furnances. Inducer crack in both. First one fixed by the original installers (and the biggest HVAC company in the area). New inducers $600 + labor (i can't remember the labor - that was sometime in 2005). Been eyeing online prices for the second one. Was about $250-$300, until recently found a place that was selling them for $100 including shipping - maybe the need for these old inducers is over and inventory is building up. Unopen box from the manufacture. Makes me wonder what the cost was to make the thing, $50 maybe $20.

I had a dryer cylinder on the AC come apart last summer. Clogged something in a piston at the coils in the furnace. Pumped out all the freon, welded new dryer in place, lost about a pound of freon, but didn't need any new since the Tech a year before put a pound in that wasn't needed in the first place. Mostly labor charge (regular hours - mid day, mid week), about 3 hours , ~ $650 Ka-ching. So anyway, I don't mean to offend the pros - I've been taken for a ride, so I'm trying to get a bit wiser.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It is impossible for us to know the going labor rate in different areas of North America and comment on what people think is fair. A house where I am can be $250,000 and 3 to 4 X as much in other cities in Canada and half that in others. Wage rates vary from $15 perhr to $40 or more depending on the city so the rate companies charge varies proportionally. Generally Joe's heatem and cheatum just wants to sell a lot of units (thats where the $$ are) never answer the phone later to provide service. Smart consumers do their research, pay a bit more and deal with reputable companies.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Yup,

When the cracks were found in 2005, the first thing I did was call 4 different companies for quotes on new equipment. All of them were about the same price (80%, two stage, variable fan, 16 Seer AC). Near 10K per unit ( little less for the garage unit, a little more for the attic) I decided to wait since it looked like maybe Seer 20 to 24 might be a possiblity in a few years (I was wrong). However, I did learn just how low they could go. One of them called me back after I turned them down (March time frame). The owner had no installs booked and wanted to put workers in my house badly (two units). Offered 3K off each. Unfortantly, he was a lennox dealer, and the smallest units Lennox made was 70K which were too big - I didn't want to be running solely in the first stage. Actually was a pretty good guy, he'd call the Engineers back at Lennox on every question I had.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Outside of Rheem directly, I found this:

Doolin's Trouble Shooter's Bible: Air Conditioning, Refrigeration, Heat Pumps, Heating.

More in line with what I was looking for.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Ruuduser said:


> Outside of Rheem directly, I found this:
> 
> Doolin's Trouble Shooter's Bible: Air Conditioning, Refrigeration, Heat Pumps, Heating.
> 
> More in line with what I was looking for.


UUHHH you better get another one. I bought that book 30 years ago and the service practices were real hacks. 

Use Modern Refrigeration and hvac .


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You mean "beer can cold" is not an acceptable charging method?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> You mean "beer can cold" is not an acceptable charging method?


#!%$% Canadian charging method! You guys like your beer too much!:yes:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

But we have "REAL" beer. None of that watered down juice some people drink. LOL:thumbup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> But we have "REAL" beer. None of that watered down juice some people drink. LOL:thumbup:


Yeah but you guys killed off Brador!

i used ta love that brew!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You asked me about it earlier, Labatts Blue is good. I like the European, Heineken and Tuborg.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> You asked me about it earlier, Labatts Blue is good. I like the European, Heineken and Tuborg.


That's my beer now. Taste good when I sit at a slot machine and i am winning.

tasted so good it got me kicked out of the MGM Grand casino in Detroit.:laughing:

Guess I should not have decked the security guard who came up behind me and grabbed my arm.

How the hell am i supposed to know whose grabbing me?


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> UUHHH you better get another one. I bought that book 30 years ago and the service practices were real hacks.
> 
> Use Modern Refrigeration and hvac .


That wasn't Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning was it?

Author Andrew D. Althouse?

Actually, I was looking for a bit of a hack.  

Something to balance against ASHRAE HVAC fundamentals


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Beer keeps my grass green


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Ruuduser said:


> That wasn't Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning was it?
> 
> _*Author Andrew D. Althouse?*_
> 
> ...


yep. That is one of the author's.

You want a hack? Try:whistling2: the Bob Villa site


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

How come Bob Villa only shows houses that ae doing 100,000 dollar renovations.

You never see him say we're doing a 500 dollar patio on our show today. LOL


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

beenthere said:


> How come Bob Villa only shows houses that ae doing 100,000 dollar renovations.
> 
> You never see him say we're doing a 500 dollar patio on our show today. LOL


 


That would be a short show lol


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Now "Holmes on homes" is a real life workin man reality show. Always fixin up some hacks mess. Not sure if you can get it on HGTV in the US.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Now "Holmes on homes" is a real life workin man reality show. Always fixin up some hacks mess. Not sure if you can get it on HGTV in the US.



Yeah I've seen it. He comes across as smug and arrogant if you ask me.

His renovations are way above anything you'd normally find in the field.

One show he remediated a home in California. I knew he was in over his head when I heard tht. He had to get local contractors involved and had his guys work with them. 

All Holmes guy did was whine that "That isn't how we do it in Canada." 

One day during the renovation Holmes supervisor made that statement to a guy on site. Turned out to be the bldg. inspector. 

They didn't show any thing on camera, but the word thru the grapevine was Holmes' guy cost the American contractor a whole bunch of money in "Re-dos" :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

kenmac said:


> That would be a short show lol


Yea, i would be.

Ok, they sould show a 5000 dollar patio.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

I should have a show.... I just replaced my 12'x24' deck about 10 ft. high . AS long as it took me ..It would have been a month long show


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

kenmac said:


> I should have a show.... I just replaced my 12'x24' deck about 10 ft. high . AS long as it took me ..It would have been a month long show


LOL

How did you anchor the posts in the ground?


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

They aren't in the ground . 6x6 treated post sit on Aluminum plates on top of the concrete patio That surrounds the pool ( under the deck) & are bolted to the top of the deck frame


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Good for you. Hey your stealing work from the carpenters:laughing:

Just don't have a Bong party and over load that puppy.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

I've seen some of the Bob villa shows, seems like HVAC usually lasts about 2 minutes. Not long enough for me to learn some good hacking 

Speaking of HGTV, we watched one of those "flip" this house shows.

Must have been a year or more ago (bought over priced dump, reworked a bit by transient labor, resold slightly fixed up dump for twice the cash). People were totally consumed by the belief that prices were going up up and up.

Wife and I wish they had a "where are they today" piece - waiting for Obama to save them?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

*" (bought over priced dump, reworked a bit by transient labor, resold slightly fixed up dump for twice the cash)*." And the sad part was that the sleazy mortgage brokers were getting people in the slums to sign up for these homes so they could get out of the slums. Both knew they could not really pay for them. Seems to be a worldwide problem, people living off credit. I pay cash or pay the card off every month.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Only use 'em when I have to get parts at wholesaler I have no account with.

Oh! And a cash advance every now and then when I 'm blotto at the casino
and feel lucky.:innocent:


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Well, the weekend project took a turn for the worse (Ruud 80% Gas Fur (UGLG-05EAUER)

I was hoping to limit my problem to a ignitor or PS, and then move on to replacing the cracked inducer.

Flame roll out switches all showed 24 volts to ground, pressure switch was ok (closed, opened to 24 volts, then closed - just like the other furnace that was working ok)

Checked ignitor again, it had a complete circuit (ignitor is new - installed last week). Plug to ignitor never showed any voltage. Unplugged power cable from ignitor to circuit board (including the connection of the inducer)- checked for resistance - no problem. 

System was doing everything right (timing, clicking of PS, clicking of relays), just no power to the ignitor. Green light on "power", green light on "OK".

Looking at the trouble shooting diagram on the furnace, it suggested a new circuit board (based on getting past the other components). Then I decided to wiggle the inducter/ignitor connector to the circuit board when the system was trying to start, I had the probes on the ignitor plug. Something was loose, was it the plug, was it the connections to the board, or was it a relay??? - anyway, the inducer turned off and on, and the power to the ignitor finally showed up at 110 V. I had to wiggle it just right to keep the inducer running (this wasn't a problem before), but I could never keep the voltage to the ignitor consistent - it came and went and sometimes would come back at only about 60-70 volts - I could make the voltage bounce during each attempt before lockout. I shut the system down. Made sure the plug was in the circuit board firmly - restarted the system, again everything was ok, but no voltage to the ignitor.

So its either the circuit board or the connector.

As for the connector (4 wire cable for the inducer and ignitor), on one end is a 4 pin connector on the other is a 6 pin connector, I'm not ever sure I can get one - maybe need to make one from scratch ??

Circuit board looks outdated from what I can tell, I believe the new circuit boards have three lights (one amber) and there is a need to add a upgrade flame sensor probe. Dang.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

10 yrs is the average life of them. Solder connections fail on the back of them and they just plain die from old age. Check the pins on that connector with a magnifying glass. On the MOLEX type occasionally they get pushed back and don't seat properly. Push them forward into the connector if necessary.


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

yuri said:


> 10 yrs is the average life of them. Solder connections fail on the back of them and they just plain die from old age. Check the pins on that connector with a magnifying glass. On the MOLEX type occasionally they get pushed back and don't seat properly. Push them forward into the connector if necessary.


 
Yeah, seems like those kind of connectors are short lived in my computers as well. I can't even remember the number of 5V connectors I've tossed. Rheem/Ruud didn't do a good job on the length, the wires are tight (in tension), so I'm sure the helped degrade it. 

Went looking for a new harness today on the internet, I even was able to find the Rheem part number from a Rheem parts list PDF (6 pin to 4 pin - looks like Rheem used it for 20 years). No one seems to list it. I guess the next step is emails to places. I did find the molex plug from a electronics store, but I'd have to build the whole thing myself - so plan A is now either a new harness or try to fix the one I have. I wish they included them with the circuit boards. 

Another puzzling thing I found, my working Ruud furnace has a flame sensor wired into the ignitor wiring (maybe was a retrofit). My non-working Ruud doesn't have a flame sensor. Both furances are identical and were installed at the same time......and both are outdated relative to the replacement circuit board that requires the flame sensor to be connected directly to the board. 

I'm not sure why one was retrofitted and not the other, unless the heat in the attic in the summer convinced someone to not work on it.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Rheem and a few Colemans used the HSI igniter as the flame sensor and the whole idea was a piece of sh*t. They abandoned it and went back to the standalone flame sensor. One of yours was manufactured right at that transition time and not the other.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

yuri said:


> Rheem and a few Colemans used the HSI igniter as the flame sensor


 
I remember those... AT 1 time rheem had that standing pilot... Had that small hood over the pilot with a tube that went to vent motor


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## Ruuduser (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok, that explains it, I was really scratching my head on how they were different, and I was trying to figure out how the one furnance was able to sense the flame. 

The retrofit looks like a hack instead of just replacing the board - the splice into the ignitor wire reminds me of the 70s when people were wiring their 8-track tape players into their 60s cars.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I had a 8 track and a pretty hot AMC Gremlin (first car). Bee Gees were popular at the time. Had lots of hair then too.:whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> I had a 8 track and a pretty hot AMC Gremlin (first car). Bee Gees were popular at the time. Had lots of hair then too.:whistling2:


LOL, I had back in those days too.


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