# Air Admittance Valve Not Opening!



## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

I currently do not have an air vent for our kitchen sink and dishwasher. I installed an AAV under the sink as a temporary solution until the weather gets nice and I can get up on the roof. Please keep that in mind when answering this question as I do not plan to keep this permanent. I know a lot of people do not like them and this is only a temporary solution. I would really like to get this working for the time being.

This is how I installed it under the sink. I've tried both of these AAV and neither work.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-Sur...9016/100201861

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-1-1...9012/100204205


When I turn the water on after about 1 minute the sinks starts to back up like it can't drain. All I have to do is unscrew the AAV and the water rushes down the drain and I can feel the air being sucked in by my hand. The 2nd I screw the AAV down it stops draining.

The trap inside the AAV is not opening. I can confirm this on both models that I have put in. It is over 4" above the trap. It's almost as if there isn't enough suck-ton to open the valve. I find that hard to believe though since the 2nd I unscrew it the amount of suck-ton that I feel by my hand while unscrewing it.

Any idea's or things to try? The problem seems to be that the flap on the AAV is not opening on both models.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)




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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Is it possible that I have positive pressure in the line and it's actually closing the AAV even more?


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Just a guess. The Tee is allowing water to go back up the pipe with the AAV. That pressure is causing the AAV to close so water does not come out.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

djlandkpl said:


> Just a guess. The Tee is allowing water to go back up the pipe with the AAV. That pressure is causing the AAV to close so water does not come out.


The AAV is above the trap though. Tech it should never even reach that far. Also, why would the sink completely drain the 2nd I remove it?

Thank you for the reply!


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

The water will not reach the AAV with your set up but it doesn't know it. Where the tee is you really need a wye so it directs the water down. The way it is now, some water can take a left and go up the AAV pipe. The water flows when you turn the AAV because you are breaking the vacuum.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

djlandkpl said:


> The water will not reach the AAV with your set up but it doesn't know it. Where the tee is you really need a wye so it directs the water down. The way it is now, some water can take a left and go up the AAV pipe. The water flows when you turn the AAV because you are breaking the vacuum.


I see what you are saying but I do not see how water would naturally go up the T. One the water is running down so it should tech skip right over the T, 2nd I have it angled so the water should continue going down the tub even if any got inside of it.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Take the pipe off that come out of the tee towards the AAV. Run your sink and see how much water comes out. 

Since it's temporary it might be easier to unscrew the AAV when you need the sink vs investing a ton of time and parts.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

I think you get a bit of bottleneck at the tee because of the different pipe diameters.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok I can confirm positive pressure.

I put a plastic bag over the pipe with the AAV off and the thing filled up like a balloon! 

What would be causing positive pressure to that extent? Does anyone have idea's?


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

It all wrong Water has to drop below the AAV above the trap.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Javiles said:


> It all wrong Water has to drop below the AAV above the trap.


Would that cause positive pressure?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Why did you decide to add theaav in the first place- slow drain?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You have an S trap---that's bad--vent must be allow air in above the P=trap--

Remove all of your piping---start pipe at the floor---add a T- for a P-trap--
Then place the AAV above the T---


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

TheEplumber said:


> Why did you decide to add theaav in the first place- slow drain?


Yes because it was not properly vented. The only vent was a small copper piping coming out underneath the sink in the craw space. It didn't allow enough air to travel through it.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

oh'mike said:


> You have an S trap---that's bad--vent must be allow air in above the P=trap--
> 
> Remove all of your piping---start pipe at the floor---add a T- for a P-trap--
> Then place the AAV above the T---


Can someone or yourself draw a diagram on how it should be set up? I'm not 100% sure on how this would help. The current AAV install is higher then the trap. 

Would this current install cause positive pressure? Like I said before air is trying to come out of the AAV vs being sucked in. There is currently positive pressure. Would the way you described setting it up eliminate the positive pressure?


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

This is the general idea but you want the AAV located higher.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

You need to put the vent where Mike and djlandkpl said- that is the proper location.

If you have drainage problems after that- you need to clean the line.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Is the current location of mine definitely causing the positive pressure? There doesn't seem to be a clog in the drain as the 2nd I unscrew it the drain flows very smoothly without ever backing up.

Thank you for the picture reference. I see what you guys are talking about. Any idea's on how to incorporate that into my current setup? Seems hard to do since it's a straight drop right after the trap.


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

I am not a plumber but I like answering questions. 
I am guessing this is the reason we are not allowed to use S traps in my area. 
Until a plumber gives you the correct answerer, I would get a P trap and attach it to the side of the T and run the vent off the top of T. 
Or you could wait for a Plumber.
Edit: Sorry completely missed page 2


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Robpo said:


> I am not a plumber but I like answering questions.
> I am guessing this is the reason we are not allowed to use S traps in my area.
> Until a plumber gives you the correct answerer, I would get a P trap and attach it to the side of the T and run the vent off the top of T.
> Or you could wait for a Plumber.
> Edit: Sorry completely missed page 2


Is this like what you guys are talking about? The S trap would get turned into a P and I'd put a 90 curve on it to hook into the T pipe that is being moved up from the bottom. The AAV would go on top of the T joint. Where the old T joint was it'll just be a straight run up, correct? Will this solve my positive pressure problem?


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Your diagram will work short term. 

I'm not a pro but I think you still have an S trap if your trap comes up to the tee and drops immediately. E or Mike can verify.


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/legal-198636/ This thread might clear it up for you. Only difference is I use real vent. start from #1


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't mind having an S trap, I just want the AAV to work. 

Can anyone explain why my current set up would be causing positive pressure?


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

My guess would be that the water going down the drain and through the trap until it got to the T would be causing positive pressure. I wouldn't cause neg pressure until it passed the T. Assuming you are meaning pos pressure to vent.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Robpo said:


> My guess would be that the water going down the drain and through the trap until it got to the T would be causing positive pressure. I wouldn't cause neg pressure until it passed the T. Assuming you are meaning pos pressure to vent.


Yes, I took the AAV off and when the sink would drain I put a plastic bag over the hole. The bag started to fill with air like a hot air balloon. The picture I drew on looks like a way that it could be set up correct?

Thank you very much for your help and quick reply's!


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

jkendt1989 said:


> I don't mind having an S trap, I just want the AAV to work.
> 
> Can anyone explain why my current set up would be causing positive pressure?


I can't explain it, but my guess would be because your current set-up is causing a piston like reaction, forcing air into your AAV and causing it to close when the sink/dish washer are draining. Nothing wrong with the AAV's, they are working properly. Just a thought. As Mke, Javiles and "E" have said, your current set-up is wrong.

You can google "positive air pressure in sewer pipes" or go to the library and get a more in-depth answer to your question. 

Stay tuned, there is a civil engineer and experienced plumbers who would be able to explain it better. Thanks.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

jmon said:


> I can't explain it, but my guess would be because your current set-up is causing a piston like reaction, forcing air into your AAV and causing it to close when the sink/dish washer are draining. Nothing wrong with the AAV's, they are working properly. Just a thought. As Mke, Javiles and "E" have said, your current set-up is wrong.
> 
> You can google "positive air pressure in sewer pipes" or go to the library and get a more in-depth answer to your question.
> 
> Stay tuned, there is a civil engineer and experienced plumbers who would be able to explain it better. Thanks.


Great! Thank you for that answer! I'm really looking forward to hearing from an experienced plumber!


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

jkendt1989 said:


> Great! Thank you for that answer! I'm really looking forward to hearing from an experienced plumber!


Your welcome. Hope you get it working the way you want soon. :thumbsup:


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

May be something like this would work for you. You might still need a way to connect the copper pipe. But again I would wait for a plumber. It would solve the pos pressure issue I think. The way people are today always wanting to sue you might not get an answer from a plumber because it is probably not code.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Robpo said:


> May be something like this would work for you. You might still need a way to connect the copper pipe. But again I would wait for a plumber. It would solve the pos pressure issue I think.
> View attachment 83933


Wow! Thank you for the drawling! That seems like a lot easier of a way without using more parts. 

I'll keep that in mind and see what a plumber says when they come by.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Robpo said:


> May be something like this would work for you. You might still need a way to connect the copper pipe. But again I would wait for a plumber. It would solve the pos pressure issue I think.



The AAV is on the wrong side of the trap.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Robpo said:


> May be something like this would work for you. You might still need a way to connect the copper pipe. But again I would wait for a plumber. It would solve the pos pressure issue I think.
> View attachment 83933


Actually, the more I look at that picture I don't think it'll work. I believe it can't be before the trap in that sense. It has to be on the other side of the trap due to the trap holding water in it. I left the dishwasher drain part open and it didn't help or do anything besides let water out when it backed up.

If I am correct it has to be like you showed with the difference of the AAV valve being above the draining end of the trap.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Here is how I was thinking it should go... Any idea's?


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

*I *like it.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

jkendt1989 said:


> Here is how I was thinking it should go... Any idea's?


This will work. It's what E-Plumber was suggesting.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

djlandkpl said:


> This will work. It's what E-Plumber was suggesting.


How hard do you think it'll be to connect that trap to the T? Not much work room....


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

jkendt1989 said:


> How hard do you think it'll be to connect that trap to the T? Not much work room....


I think it's going to be difficult. It looks to be really tight and the fittings may not line up correctly.

If you are going to do your permanent fix in the next few weeks, it's not worth the effort in my opinion.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The S-trap is the problem----look at the picture in post #17---do that and it will drain properly---


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

djlandkpl said:


> I think it's going to be difficult. It looks to be really tight and the fittings may not line up correctly.
> 
> If you are going to do your permanent fix in the next few weeks, it's not worth the effort in my opinion.


The problem is that it may need to be permanent for awhile. There is a window right above my sink. It's going to be very hard to run that pipe. That's why I would like this to work as a back up.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

oh'mike said:


> The S-trap is the problem----look at the picture in post #17---do that and it will drain properly---


Can you please look at the picture on my post #34 and tell me if that is the case with what I proposed to do?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That would work,I believe----there is a P-trap with the AAV above the T---


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

oh'mike said:


> That would work,I believe----there is a P-trap with the AAV above the T---


Yes, that is what I'm thinking about doing. The AAV will be right above the T. The middle section is where the Ptrap will hook into and the bottom of the T will be the drain down to the main line.

Only problem I see is that limited space in between the trap and the T, trying to get them to line up.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You are using compression tubes---it may be time to buy some primer and solvent and switch to 1 1/2" PVC---you could use a couple of 45* to shirt the pipe and T-to the back of the cabinet---


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

oh'mike said:


> You are using compression tubes---it may be time to buy some primer and solvent and switch to 1 1/2" PVC---you could use a couple of 45* to shirt the pipe and T-to the back of the cabinet---


I'm connect to a metal piping, the same size as the compression tubes. I don't want to rip that mental piping out. Can I convert from metal piping to plastic w PVC?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

jkendt1989 said:


> I'm connect to a metal piping, the same size as the compression tubes. I don't want to rip that mental piping out. Can I convert from metal piping to plastic w PVC?


Use a female adapter or a shielded Fernco coupling.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

rjniles said:


> Use a female adapter or a shielded Fernco coupling.


Are compression fittings really that bad?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

jkendt1989 said:


> Are compression fittings really that bad?


Who said they are bad?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Get your drain snaked. Get rid of the S trap. Install a Sanitary tee with A P trap and AAV 6 inches directly above the tee.


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

Ghostmaker said:


> Get your drain snaked. Get rid of the S trap. Install a Sanitary tee with A P trap and AAV 6 inches directly above the tee.


only took 49 post do i hear 100 :confused1::lol:


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

For everyone's information S traps have been illegal to use for almost 34 years now. S traps have a bad habit of self siphoning and losing the water seal that is what keeps the evil sewer smell from entering your abode.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok guys, here is an update. Try to hear me out on this without code popping into your head. I did electrical so I get the same way when people tell me stuff.

I talked to a very experienced plumber and showed him a ton of pictures and he said the current way I have the AAV set up should drain no problem. There should be no positive pressure and that the T being where it is would work as long as the AAV is as high as it is. He said the only reason they show it set up the way in the pictures is because that is how the code is for them. It still should work no problem with the way that it is set up and that simply moving the T above to trap would still have the same exact effect as it does.

We have come to the conclusion that the sink drainage is not even hooked up to the septic system! Rather it is simply just draining into the grass. 

A little back history, there use to be only one septic line out of the house (there are two now). That one septic line did the bathroom and the kitchen since there were both really close to each other. An addition was put on for a new kitchen at some point in to 50's-70's. The original out drain is still in place. It now does the sink, tub and toilet without any problem and is properly vented. 

Now in the addition, which is now the kitchen, it has different septic drain going out of the house. This one I have not a clue where it goes but I do not think it goes to the septic. There is a part of the lawn that gets really green and wet, I think that's around where it drains. There is only a kitchen sink going out of this drain so I can see someone reasoning during that time period that they would just drain it out into the lawn since it is only sink and dish washer. No waste is going out.

This would explain the positive pressure and why the trap won't open since there is positive pressure in that line. The septic and other line out are properly vented. This drain out has no vent besides that AAV I put in. Another reason I think this is because when taking the drain and trap apart there was absolutely no bad smell coming out! Even when I unscrew the AAV to let all the air pressure out it does not smell at all! I put my nose right up to it and could not tell any difference from the normal air. This would explain a lot if they just ran a sink drain out of the house and somewhere in the yard vs trying to hook it up to the old septic system and digging the whole yard apart. 

Does this seem about right to everyone?


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Ghostmaker said:


> For everyone's information S traps have been illegal to use for almost 34 years now. S traps have a bad habit of self siphoning and losing the water seal that is what keeps the evil sewer smell from entering your abode.


This old work has been there for probably over 40 years. Which would explain my post I did above.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Seen a lot of kitchen sinks that way from the era you state. 
Your sink is still not vented or plumbed correctly (I didn't say the word code)

As i asked long ago and other plumbers have brought up- clean the line to improve flow, and install the tee above the P trap. By doing this, you will have eliminated unknowns(to you) and then you can move forward to more expensive and time consuming fixes- like putting the sink on your septic


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

TheEplumber said:


> Seen a lot of kitchen sinks that way from the era you state.
> Your sink is still not vented or plumbed correctly (I didn't say the word code)
> 
> As i asked long ago and other plumbers have brought up- clean the line to improve flow, and install the tee above the P trap. By doing this, you will have eliminated unknowns(to you) and then you can move forward to more expensive and time consuming fixes- like putting the sink on your septic


That is something that was common then? To just vent a sink out into the lawn vs hooking it up to the septic? I see why they now require inspectors and things of that nature. I rent this house so I am not trying to do too much work to it. Only reason I did this was to hook up a dishwasher that he said he'd pay for. If it was my house I'd redo everything. Unless he wants to pay me I'm not going above and beyond just so the next tenant can enjoy it.

According to the plumber I talked to it's not going to magically make the positive pressure go away by installing the T above the trap. The positive pressure is most likely because it's not even going to the septic and is just drained right into the lawn.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Ours were piped to a cesspool, drywell or what ever name you want to call it.
Since my local ground is rocky, the practice was to assemble a rock igloo underground using small boulders. Then poke the kitchen line into it. Then bury the pit. This would allow the grey water to leach into the surrounding soil.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

TheEplumber said:


> Ours were piped to a cesspool, drywell or what ever name you want to call it.
> Since my local ground is rocky, the practice was to assemble a rock igloo underground using small boulders. Then poke the kitchen line into it. Then bury the pit. This would allow the grey water to leach into the surrounding soil.


Wow I didn't know it was a common practice. At this point this is the only thing we could come up with without putting a snake down there and seeing if we hit a dead end or can hear it in the septic. I've had the AAV unscrewed enough to where it allows air out when the sinks drains and so far we have absolutely no smell coming out what so ever. It seems more and more likely that they just drained it into the yard.

Again if I owned the house I would tie it in to the main septic line. I'm not putting the time and money in though for my landlords sake.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

jkendt1989 said:


> Ok guys, here is an update. Try to hear me out on this without code popping into your head. I did electrical so I get the same way when people tell me stuff.
> 
> I talked to a very experienced plumber and showed him a ton of pictures and he said the current way I have the AAV set up should drain no problem. There should be no positive pressure and that the T being where it is would work as long as the AAV is as high as it is. He said the only reason they show it set up the way in the pictures is because that is how the code is for them. It still should work no problem with the way that it is set up and that simply moving the T above to trap would still have the same exact effect as it does.
> 
> ...


Yea your plumbers an Idiot. I think that is all I can say. Tell dummy to try that in a house I inspect.


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

AHHHH  i can't stand it any longer give me your state and address gonna drive up and install it myself :wallbash:


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Ghostmaker said:


> Yea your plumbers an Idiot. I think that is all I can say. Tell dummy to try that in a house I inspect.


I'm a little confused as to why you resorted to name calling... If you could be a little more specific as to why he is a dummy I'd appreciate it.

He did none of the plumbing in the house. Instead of resorting to name calling like a 4th grader a little more explanation would be useful.


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

Javiles said:


> AHHHH  i can't stand it any longer give me your state and address gonna drive up and install it myself :wallbash:


It's not going to matter what way you install it. There is positive pressure in the line due to it not being even hooked up to a septic system.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

What makes you think not being connected to a septic creates positive pressure?


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## jkendt1989 (Apr 17, 2014)

rjniles said:


> What makes you think not being connected to a septic creates positive pressure?


There is a high concrete slab above ground filled with stones and then the concrete poured on top for an outdoor room. The pipe literally runs right out into the center of it. It's tech above ground. I have a feeling it just drains throughout that stone or runs out into the yard.

I am not experienced in plumbing so I don't know exactly what causes positive pressure but it was the main thing we came up with without him coming out and putting a snake down the line to see if he can hear it in the septic tank was that it was never hooked up. 

The pipe under the sink has been open for two days now and I cannot smell a thing. Even with my nose right on top of it. 

Who knows if there is even a septic at all. It's not my house so I'm not getting too involved. As long as the dishwasher works and my set up is 10x better than the setup from the 1950's that was in place.


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## plumberinlaw (Feb 22, 2010)

your slip tee is probably a directional fitting (has a baffel) installed upside down


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

jkendt1989 said:


> It's not going to matter what way you install it. There is positive pressure in the line due to it not being even hooked up to a septic system.


That makes absolutely no sense of course the way you pipe it in makes a difference the positive pressure in a line is in front of the water not behind it the solution to your problem was given to you along time ago if you installed it correctly and you still have a problem you'll need to look else where but its not from positive pressure in the system unless you have no vents anywhere and your pumping air in to the pipes, if you haven't solved your problem by now with the the advise and recommendations its time to pull out the old wallet and call your local professional plumber.


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## SpanishJesus (Jul 1, 2017)

I'm inclined to agree with the idea that it won't matter how it's piped because I just installed an aav as described by some of you with a p trap into a sani t with the aav 6" above the t. I'm experiencing the same problem of the vent not opening. I'm also experiencing normal drainage as soon as the aav is unscrewed. And I'm also getting no sewage smell when the aav is unscrewed. I also live in an old building where it's likely the kitchen sinks were drained directly into the lawn. I live in a two unit building and only the kitchen sinks were having drainage problems.


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