# Buckling wavy roof



## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Home built in 1991. CertainTeed Integrity Roof System installed 3 months ago after tear off & removal of old asphalt shingles. Attic foam insulated. Removed old attic ventilation fan that was no longer in use and installed ridge vents. Comments?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Sure looks to me like temperature related expansion of the shingle or the underlayment.

I know that roofers do it, but I am not a fan of cold weather installs. Do you recall what the temps were when the roof was done? And what underlay paper was installed? 

In any case, you need to be contacting the installer.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Where is the foam in the attic, attic floor or bottom of the roof sheathing?

Bud

And welcome to the forum


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

First WELCOME.

Looks to me as a heat problem, what kind of fasteners were used ?

Are the ridge vents actually working.

Need to contact the installer before the limited labor warranty expires.

Something was done wrong.


ED


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Roof was installed over two days, Aug 31 & Sept 1, 2017 (so my three month estimate in my OP was incorrect). Temps on those days were high of 81/82 and low of 71/72. The new felt was left overnight uncovered and there was dew in the morning. 

The attic is foam insulated on the ceiling of the attic, so it hides the rafters and roof sheathing. It has been insulated this way for years and I've never had a problem. My previous roof held up very well.


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Could the foam insulation prevent the newly installed ridge vents from working properly, or at all?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Ridge vents need a space between the sheathing at the peak, to allow the hot air to escape.

Was a notch cut into the peak to allow heat to escape?

If not your vents are installed incorrectly.

ED


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Need more details.
1. Is the foam open cell foam or closed cell? Closed would act as a vapor barrier.
2. Are their soffit vents to provide air for the ridge vent? Often a spray foam installation would seal all vents, high and low.
3. Why did they foam the bottom of the roof?
4. What climate region are you in?

With the bottom of the roof well insulated the shingle temperatures will go up. In most cases it isn't an extreme rise but may be an issue getting the mfg to accept responsibility.

Now, if the current shingles were stripped off and replaced, what would you do differently from the original install you described? Sounds like temps were good and the bit of dew shouldn't have been an issue. Hard to blame the installer.

I'm leaning towards the spray foam as being the source of the problem, made the shingle temp go up.

Bud


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Yes, a notch was cut before the ridge vents were installed. 
Yes, the house has soffit vents all the way around. 
The spray foam insulation was in the attic before I bought the home 6 years ago. It has been there for at least 10 years. The old roof never had any problems so I find it difficult to blame the attic insulation. 
I'm unsure if it's closed cell or open cell. How could I determine this? 
I am in South Carolina.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Something seams strange here. If the roof deck is spray foamed, this means the homes outer envelope has changed to a cathedral type roof. And everything under it is conditioned space. In order for any vents, soffit or ridge, to be useful, a air cavity below the roof deck should have been installed. Sounds like the foam went directly on the roof deck without a air space.

Open or closed cell foam? How thick? If open cell, was it air sealed first with closed cell?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Open cell looks like packaging foam, you can see some voids between beads. Closed, just the opposite, no voids, smaller beads


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Insulating the bottom of the roof with an insulated attic floor stops virtually most air flow for ventilation. If is the heat from the roof plus the heat from the house that powers the ventilation process and that ventilation is what removes the moisture from the attic that has escaped from the house.

Still speculating, but open cell foam without a layer of rigid as Yodaman asked could be allowing moisture to move through the foam and soak into the bottom of the roof.

As I said, speculating.

Bud


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Okay, the foam insulation is open cell. Is it possible that because the roofer installed ridge vents on a roof that has (open cell) foam insulation below, on the attic ceiling hiding the rafters, moisture is how able to enter the ridge vent with no where to escape, thus causing the buckling wavy roof?


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Also, the buckling is barley noticeable on a cool cloudy day, but as soon as we have full sun, the waviness is immediately noticeable.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

rarefinnej said:


> Okay, the foam insulation is open cell. Is it possible that because the roofer installed ridge vents on a roof that has (open cell) foam insulation below, on the attic ceiling hiding the rafters, moisture is how able to enter the ridge vent with no where to escape, thus causing the buckling wavy roof?


That would be very unusual, to cut in a ridge, install a ridge vent, yet leave the spray foam below blocking air flow from the attic.

Clarify if I have this wrong.

Bud


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Bud, you have it right. The foam has been there for at least 10 years. Prior to the new roof, there was an old unused attic fan on the back of the roof (not on the side that has the buckling) that left unsightly rust stains on the roof. I asked if they could remove the old rusty unused fan, which they did and they replaced the plywood that had a hole for the fan with a new piece of solid plywood. There is a tiny air space through the open cell spray foam insulation that lead to the fan where the wire used to be that powered the fan once upon a time. Then, they installed ridge vents on the roof without mentioning it to me first.


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> Ridge vents need a space between the sheathing at the peak, to allow the hot air to escape.
> 
> Was a notch cut into the peak to allow heat to escape?
> 
> ...


Yes, a notch was cut before the ridge vents were installed.


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

The BLUE = ATTIC location
ORANGE = RIDGE VENTS
YELLOW = where the shingles are buckling
The black dot within the blue square (attic) is the old unused attic fan that was removed during take off and install of new roof.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

What you have is a hybrid situation, part using methods for a ventilated attic and part using methods for an unvented attic. I did some searching but found no articles discussing the consequences of your approach, they all want it one way or the other, so no guidance.

Although the 10 year history sounds good the current results look bad.
One change that seems to have occurred and I'm not sure how it fits in, is the new ridge vent. Your suggestion that moisture might be entering and wetting the open cell foam is concerning. More speculating here, but if the ridge vent is going to stay the foam at the peak should be opened. Some pictures would be interesting.

If you cut back that foam and opened the ridge the ventilation might remove some or all of any moisture that has accumulated. Once the attic becomes a ventilated space your shingle buckling might go away.

I'm uncomfortable giving definite advice from long distance so the decision falls back to you. I'll do some more searching to see if this problem has shown up before.

Bud

Note, the old fan although not running may have been providing some venting of the attic air.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

And of course ridge vents are half of the equation. Are there soffits? Open or sprayed foamed over?

So changing this attic space back to unconditioned space would mean the attic floor should be insulated and air sealed. (if not already done)


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Yodaman said:


> And of course ridge vents are half of the equation. Are there soffits? Open or sprayed foamed over?
> 
> So changing this attic space back to unconditioned space would mean the attic floor should be insulated and air sealed. (if not already done)


There are soffits all the way around the house. See image above. The buckling is also happening in areas that are not above attic space, meaning no spray foam insulation so no, those soffits are not spray foamed over. The soffits around the blue square in the image above may be, I'd have to inspect. But, again, the buckling is happening in areas where there is no attic space and no foam insulation and yes, open soffit vents.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Looking at your overhead photo I see some concerns.
1. The total length of your ridge venting doesn't look sufficient to provide the recommended high vent area.
2. What you do have is divided between one high ridge area and two lower ridge areas. It requires a closer evaluation but the lower ridge areas are less effective at doing their job.
3. You mention that not all problem areas are above foam insulation, are those areas vaulted ceilings, high ceilings inside?

What do you have in place for attic floor insulation and was there ever any effort made to air seal between house and attic?
If you have vaulted ceilings what is in there for insulation?

Bud


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

rarefinnej said:


> The new felt was left overnight uncovered and there was dew in the morning.


Was it #30 felt underlayment?


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> Looking at your overhead photo I see some concerns.
> 1. The total length of your ridge venting doesn't look sufficient to provide the recommended high vent area.
> 2. What you do have is divided between one high ridge area and two lower ridge areas. It requires a closer evaluation but the lower ridge areas are less effective at doing their job.
> 3. You mention that not all problem areas are above foam insulation, are those areas vaulted ceilings, high ceilings inside?
> ...


Yes, those areas are vaulted ceilings. The attic floor has standard fiberglass insulation. I am not sure if there is insulation in the vaulted ceilings, but if there is then I would assume it is also fiberglass as that is what is insulating the non vaulted ceilings. No effort has been made to air seal between the living space and attic space.


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

craig11152 said:


> rarefinnej said:
> 
> 
> > The new felt was left overnight uncovered and there was dew in the morning.
> ...


I'm unsure.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The conclusion I'm coming to is the buckling is due to moisture as others have also stated. Not a leak in the roof but humidity known as moisture vapor that is escaping from the house and is not being vented out. The old attic fan although not running was still an opening and providing some air flow. With that sealed up and the new ridge vent not opened to allow air flow the humidity level up there increased and migrated through the open cell in those areas or jusr condensed against the cold sheathing in the vaulted areas.

You also have a hip roof which complicates the ventilation, especially if that hip is part of the vaulted area.

Recommendation from long distance:
Pick up if you don't have one a remote reading temp and humidity meter or two. Use these to document the current attic conditions, you want to record temp and RH at all locations you measure. Also note the outside temp and RH.

Then, as you make changes you will know if they are affecting the h8midity up there.

Undertake an effort to air seal everywhere you can, there are guidelines and the list is long.

As mentioned before open up the ridge vent and check to be sure you have soffit vents.

As for who is responsible, he may argue it wasn't part of his work but the roofer who cut in the ridge vent without opening the air path through the foam didn't do his job. At a minimum he should have told you it wasn't fully open.

If it all lays down and behaves itself after the above changes you may have lucked out.

Bud


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

How far apart are your roof trusses.? 
What size plywood was used.?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Excess moisture could be the issue here, but I would not rule out heat from the unvented roof deck. In either case the remedy is the same, proper upper and lower vents. But if moisture is the problem, you may have other issues now too. From water saturated roof decking to mold growing underneath it. Moisture alone would not cause asphalt shingle expansion. A 30lb felt paper underlayment that was water saturated could possibly expand like that. But not likely any of the synthetics would. 

Also, I don't believe all shingle MFG's are ok with a unvented roof deck.
Some building codes allow for spray foam under the deck, and insulation contractors will plug the benefits, but not sure all the MFG's are on board with it.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Since this application of open cell foam is not a typical use, it is in a vented attic, i cannot find specific information on how it might or might not be a problem. But here are a couple of links on open cell foam applied directly to the bottom of a roof so I'll let you read.

https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/75042/Will-Open-Cell-Spray-Foam-Insulation-Really-Rot-Your-Roof

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/open-cell-spray-foam-and-damp-roof-sheathing

Bud


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> What you have is a hybrid situation, part using methods for a ventilated attic and part using methods for an unvented attic. I did some searching but found no articles discussing the consequences of your approach, they all want it one way or the other, so no guidance.
> 
> Although the 10 year history sounds good the current results look bad.
> One change that seems to have occurred and I'm not sure how it fits in, is the new ridge vent. Your suggestion that moisture might be entering and wetting the open cell foam is concerning. More speculating here, but if the ridge vent is going to stay the foam at the peak should be opened. Some pictures would be interesting.
> ...


*The roofer tells me that humidity and moisture cannot enter the ridge vent and become trapped* :confused1: *and that since the foam was not opened up when the notch at the peak was cut, the ridge vents are completely cosmetic. *

Also, the buckles are firm when stepped on....

As for the old non functioning attic fan possibly providing some venting of the attic air, I'm not sure that this opening would allow for that:


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

*Defective installation*

See my new roof? See my new roofs buckling & waviness? 

Here are the facts: CertainTeed Integrity Roof System installed less than a year ago after tear off & removal of old asphalt shingles. There is open cell spray foam insulation on the ceiling of the attic, hiding the rafters & roof sheathing. The attic has been insulated this way for years and I've never had a problem. My previous roof held up very well. Prior to the new roof, there was an old unused attic fan on the back of the roof (not on the side that has the buckling) that left unsightly rust stains on the shingles. I asked if they could remove the old rusty unused fan, which they did and they replaced the plywood that had a hole for the fan with a new piece of solid plywood. (If any air was allowed to ventilate through the unused fan, it would have had to travel along the path that the old electric wire took to the fan, but I'm pretty sure that was sealed by the foam insulation adhering to the wire.) Then, the installers used a circular saw to cut long notches into the peaks and they installed ridge vents (which my roof did not previously have), but did not open up the foam insulation redering the ridge vents useless. There are soffit vents all the way around the house and the spray foam insulation is only present in the attic, so not all soffits are going to be sealed. The buckling is present in areas where there is no attic space and no foam insulation and it's also present above the attic. 

The roofer assured me that they would replace my roof, but that they first wanted to have the singles tested for manufacturer defects and that they'd have a representative of CertainTeed take a shingle from my roof to send off to their lab so that they could make a claim for my roof replacement. After a lot of back & forth and missed appointments by the roofer, they finally came to my house. After the CertainTeed rep viewed the roof from the ground and declared no manufacturer defects and after the roofer had an installer go onto my roof and step on one of the wavy areas and confirm that where he stepped was solid, I'm told this is not an installation problem & that I'll be charged for any roof work. The roofer tells me that since the foam was not opened up when the notch at the peak was cut, the ridge vents are completely cosmetic and when I expressed concern for humidity & moisture, he said humidity & moisture cannot enter the ridge vent and become trapped. He also told me that two of the three ridge vents were installed so that my roof had a "consistent look". 

Comments? Please view pictures for a better understanding.


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## Marson (Jan 26, 2018)

*Re: Defective installation*

Can you get on this roof yourself? First thing I would do is go up there and lift those buckled shingles and have a look. Are the shingles buckling or is it what's underneath? One possible cause of something like this is the installer butting the shingles tight, especially if they were installed in cold weather.

It sure doesn't look like buckling roof sheathing, but if it was, hard to see how you would pin it on the roofer. Personally, I'm not a fan of spraying foam on the underside of roof sheathing. Roofs should breath, and it's best if they are actually ventilated. 

Installing shingles isn't exactly rocket science. Hard to think of what they did wrong. 

Shingle manufacturer's always, always, always blame the installer. Did the dude say what the specific installation error was?


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

*Re: Defective installation*

Personally, I would like the ridge vents to work properly as designed with baffles from sofit to ridge to allow an air space gap between the roof sheathing and insulation. 

I know it's air tight which is good for energy efficiency but it's not allowing any ventilation under the roof sheathing. Just my comment.

Please wait for some roofers to respond with more advice for what you can do. Thank you.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Threads merged.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Spraying the roof deck with open cell foam was a mistake IMHO. Open cell is permeable, allowing vapors to pass thru. But in this case the vapors had no where to go except into the roof decking, Which I believe needs to be inspected. Opening the ridge vent is a must but may be too late to save the decking.
http://blog.polytechinc.com/open-vs-closed-cell-foam


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## rarefinnej (Feb 28, 2018)

New ridge vents are marked in orange on the photo. Here is one of the NON spray foamed/no attic areas from the inside, circled in GREEN. I marked the ridge vent and buckling from the interior, too. The spray foam is not to blame here because the buckling is also present where there is no foam.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Here's my 2 cents and haven't read all replies, so I may be repeating the others.
1. get the roofer back and the rep and insist on removing the shingle over the buckle. Ask for photo. I would not take their word that the buckled area was firm. What is firm, anyway? What is under the shingles that makes it firm?

2. if their diagnosis is correct, then what happened is that the roof decking delaminated. Delamination was on-going because of the foam insulation which trapped more moisture and heat. New roofing accelerated the decking laminations to buckle. But if the decking was delaminating to that extent, roofer would have known. There is no way a pro would not know about it.

3. I don't think that would get you a proper roof. You probably have to offer to pay for deck replacement at least. Court may find in your favor for free new roof, but not deck replacement. Time in on your side, at least, since current roof is not leaking.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Sorry forgot that some parts don't have foam insul. 
Also it's funny why the roofer put up a false ridge vent.
Anyway, it is also possible that the roof deck plywood was defective to begin with. Maybe rained on too long? Or factory defect? Maybe you can talk to the neighbors if it is one of many in the development.


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