# Can a DIY still bleed brake system in 2013 Dodge van?



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

noquacks said:


> People,
> 
> _*Van is about 2 yrs old and thinking of bleeding out old brake fluid *_and heard a diy cant really do this chore anymore with the newer technology of our new vans- something about the abs box that complicates the whole process.
> 
> ...


Ayuh,.... _*Why*_,..??

The brake fluid don't need changin',....

Never heard of such a thing,.....


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Actually it is recommended to flush the brake hydraulic system once in awhile. It used to be 2 years but don't know the current recommendation. 

Most vehicles still use dot 3 rated fluid. It is hygroscopic which means it absorbs water. That moisture reduces the boiling point of the brake fluid. It also causes corrosion within the brake system which can lead to reduced life of the parts. 

To the boiling point issue; if brake fluid boils it causes air pockets to form in the system. Fluid is not compressible, air is. That means your brakes become less effective or if enough air, simply useless.


----------



## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

nap said:


> Actually it is recommended to flush the brake hydraulic system once in awhile. It used to be 2 years but don't know the current recommendation.
> 
> Most vehicles still use dot 3 rated fluid. It is hygroscopic which means it absorbs water. That moisture reduces the boiling point of the brake fluid. It also causes corrosion within the brake system which can lead to reduced life of the parts.
> 
> To the boiling point issue; if brake fluid boils it causes air pockets to form in the system. Fluid is not compressible, air is. That means your brakes become less effective or if enough air, simply useless.


right. ok, maybe not right at 2 years, but Id say 3 yrs is limit. Dont change your fluid, rust out your innards like pitting of caliper pistons. Ive seen it. Also, not that I have shoe brakes, but some older cars with shoe brakes need fluid changing cuz rust out brake cylinders. 

Anyway, I will want to change it by 3rd year for sure. feedback appreciated.


----------



## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... _*Why*_,..??
> 
> The brake fluid don't need changin',....
> 
> Never heard of such a thing,.....


I really wish you were right, bond, but im afraid wishing only works at Disney World. Fluid has to be changed periodically.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

There is at least one auto manufacturer that says the fluid is "lifetime" and needs no changing but they also claim their trans fluid is good for the life of the vehicle and some manufacturers have recommended never changing your coolant as well. 

Remember, they get to sell you a new car when your old one wears out


----------



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,.... Bullship,..... I've been a Mechanic for 40 years,....

Brake fluid does _*NOT*_ wear out,.....

The brake system is sealed, it Don't pick up water, unless the system is breached,...

The Manufacturer recommendations are written to drive _Profits_ for the service dept,....


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Most of the Mfgs are recommending the fluid changing be done with a power bleeder. So unless you happen to own one, have it done by a mechanic, dealer, or brake service.

The problem with the DIY bleeding methods is that if you pull any air into the brake system (ran the reservoir dry), it can get hung up in the ABS module, which may also be the traction control device.

To properly bleed air from some of those units, you may have to use a scanner that allows you to actually trigger the valves in the ABS unit. 

The ABS unit is vulnerable to corrosion or to particles from corrosion elsewhere in the system. It is one of the reasons the Mfgs have been tightening the change intervals on the brake fluid.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... Bullship,..... I've been a Mechanic for 40 years,....
> 
> Brake fluid does _*NOT*_ wear out,.....
> 
> ...




I didn't say it wore out. I said it absorbs moisture. 


Sorry but you are wrong here bondo. 
but let's go with your thoughts:


when is the last time you opened up a wheel cylinder that didn't have actual corrosion in it? What do you think caused that? Same with calipers. 

and of course every time you open the cap on the master cylinder to add fluid to make up for the travel of the pistons in the calipers you have unsealed the system.


----------



## cjm94 (Sep 25, 2011)

nap said:


> I didn't say it wore out. I said it absorbs moisture.
> 
> 
> Sorry but you are wrong here bondo.
> ...


You can get test strip a to check for moisture. If there is no moisture I wouldn't bother yet.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

cjm94 said:


> You can get test strip a to check for moisture. If there is no moisture I wouldn't bother yet.



yes you can but you are suggesting waiting until the moisture level is already determined to be too much. Preventative maintenance is what it is; you do things before they become a problem.

a negative on the strip doesn't mean there is no moisture. It means if is below the threshold the strip is designed to indicate. 


On top of that, having the opportunity to crack open the bleeders every couple of years is a good idea anyway. All too often they seize and are the lone reason a caliper or wheel cylinder must be replaced in my area.


----------



## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Oso954 said:


> Most of the Mfgs are recommending the fluid changing be done with a power bleeder. So unless you happen to own one, have it done by a mechanic, dealer, or brake service.
> 
> The problem with the DIY bleeding methods is that if you pull any air into the brake system (ran the reservoir dry), it can get hung up in the ABS module, which may also be the traction control device.
> 
> ...


I think thats what I was after. Yup- gota have a scanner to do it right then, I suppose. Shesh. I think I'll wait til 3 years then do it. 

Also, right about rust on pistons/wheel cylinders being caused by moisture. Dry brake fluid (glycol) does not cause steel to rust. Even though we call it a "sealed" system, no way to keep water out 100%. Water (including water vapor in the air we breathe) will find its way in.


----------



## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Well, if you are going to replace the brake fluid, might as well replace the blinker fluid while you're at it.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

ddawg16 said:


> Well, if you are going to replace the brake fluid, might as well replace the blinker fluid while you're at it.





My car has blinker fluid. Just filled it. 



it's really headlight fluid but it wouldn't have been as funny if I said; mine has headlight fluid, well, because you asked about blinker fluid


----------



## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

OK, back to the original Q.
On my Camry Hybrid you can NOT DIY brake fluid bleed. Reason being, my brake pedal has no direct connection to even master. And master does not have any hydraulic lines going to the brakes. It has what is called a brake stroke simulator on brake pedal, and hydraulic brake pressure is created by brake actuator and brake accumulator. The ONLY way to bleed those brakes is with a high tech scanner that will operate brake actuator valves, to bleed air out. If attempted to DIY the normal way, it actually does lead to system failure and about $3 000 repair. 
OP, should your Durango have similar system - you hosed.
BUT! If all there is to it is ABS module, you simply replace fluid as usual, re-engage brakes as usual, get car out, get her to about 50 and slam on brake pedal with both feet. Repeat 2-3 times in a row, and you bled your ABS module.
I'd split anything dealer tells me five times. All they care about is lightening your wallet.


----------



## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Bondo said:


> Brake fluid does _*NOT*_ wear out,.....
> 
> The brake system is sealed, it Don't pick up water, unless the system is breached,...
> 
> The Manufacturer recommendations are written to drive _Profits_ for the service dept,....


no, it doesn't wear out. but it does become contaminated. 

it not completely sealed. there is a very small hole in the master cap seal.

yes, that is true.


----------



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> no, it doesn't wear out. but it does become contaminated.
> 
> *it not completely sealed. there is a very small hole in the master cap seal.*
> 
> yes, that is true.


Ayuh,... It is sealed, by the rubber bladder, Under the cap,......

As a Mechanic for the last 40 odd years, the only corrosion I've run across is from _*OUTSIDE*_ the fluid areas, caused by failed rubber seals on wheel cylinders, 'n calipers, that corroded _*OUTSIDE*_ the fluid's sealed system,....

The only time I change brake fluid is when makin' a repair, that needs bleedin' after the repair is completed,....

You all can do as ya please,...
I ain't gonna start pissin' in the wind, when it's _completely Unnecessary_,....


----------



## Premium08 (Jul 28, 2014)

I got a 97 Thunderbird, only brake work ever done to it is changing pads and calibers. No leaks that I can see. Two weeks ago I drive it and the brakes feel spongy but still work. Last week the brake pedal goes to the floor and no brakes at all. I bleed the brakes and all is well, so what happened?


----------



## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

Premium08 said:


> I got a 97 Thunderbird, only brake work ever done to it is changing pads and calibers. No leaks that I can see. Two weeks ago I drive it and the brakes feel spongy but still work. Last week the brake pedal goes to the floor and no brakes at all. I bleed the brakes and all is well, so what happened?



You start your own thread on this Q and get responses. That's what happens.


----------



## Premium08 (Jul 28, 2014)

ukrkoz said:


> You start your own thread on this Q and get responses. That's what happens.


No need, I already asked the question in this thread


----------



## caveeagle (Jul 22, 2013)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... It is sealed, by the rubber bladder, Under the cap,......
> 
> As a Mechanic for the last 40 odd years, the only corrosion I've run across is from _*OUTSIDE*_ the fluid areas, caused by failed rubber seals on wheel cylinders, 'n calipers, that corroded _*OUTSIDE*_ the fluid's sealed system,....
> 
> ...


Bondo, you keep say your right because you've been a mech for 40 years.. Are you ASE certified? Where have you worked for those years? Doing a job for 40 years does not make you right! I have corrected several jobs done incorrectly by 'profesional' mechanics. No disrespect indended, but please give us some facts to back up your claims. The 40yr stuff carrys no weight with me.

I have done more brake jobs than I care to recall. I have seen plenty of corrosion in the caliper piston/ wheel cyl area. Driving in Florida, its almost imposible to avoid going through deep puddles, where your brakes can be totally submerged. The dust boot can easily trap water in there and it aint too hard for some of it to get into the wheel cyl. Pluss the sealing area of your piston seals moves as your brake linings wear. So corrosing on the outer limits becomes the sealing area when your brakes are near the end of their life.

Ever wonder why brand new brake fluid is clear? And turns dark as it ages.

Also there is also silicon brake fluid to address. Does not give as firm of a pedal, but should not absorb moisture. Classic car folks who rarely drive can benifit from this.

Man, that Toyota system sounds like a headache! Another reason to never own one!


----------



## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

This classic car guy uses DOT 4, and actually changes it every few years.

Tried silicone fluid one time, and did not like how the pedal felt.



What's with the Ayuh stuff?

Is that like saying UH, or saying Ya Know?


I think it's sort of irritating, and indicative of a low decree of education.:whistling2:


----------



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

ktkelly said:


> This classic car guy uses DOT 4, and actually changes it every few years.
> 
> Tried silicone fluid one time, and did not like how the pedal felt.
> 
> ...


Ayuh,... I didn't realize a Phd. is require to post on Diy opinion forums,....

If yer so smart, ya oughta be able to figure out the meanin' of a simple regional word,...
If ya find it irritatin',... _ Please_, don't read my posts, simple enough, ay,..??

For caveeagle,.... I've been wrenchin' on cars, 'n trucks, 'n equipment since the late 60s,....
I don't need a piece of paper taped to my toolbox tellin' me what I've learn in all these years,...
My education is from life's experiences, the depth of which is enough for me to form an Opinion of why manufacturers recommend changin' the brake fluid,...

Yer analysis of the Florida puddles problem actually backs up, exactly what I said,...
The corrosion starts _Outside_ the sealed fluid envelope,...

Growin' up in eastern Maine, 'n livin' up here in the snowbelt for nearly 40 years,...
I'll trade ya yer Florida puddles, for my 6 months a year of road salt, any day of the week,....
You don't even know what real corrosion is,......
I've spent a lifetime freein' rusted seized bleeder screws,... 

Btw,.... My '96 Ford pickup still has most of it's original brake fluid,.....
Hada change the front calipers because of road salt corrosion after 200,000 miles,...
Bleedin' 'em refreshed that much of the fluid,...
The back axle has seen two new set of shoes,... original fluid,...


----------



## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

Call me a fool. I change every fluid I can ever change on my vehicles. Two things I know for sure. The cheap fluids I buy at walmart, minus motor oil, cause many problems. Second, changing the transmission fluid and filter often really helps trannys last.
All the other fluids, not to sure. Antifreeze always seems low, so I add. Powersteering, Whats that? To each their own I guess. If you guys like fighting like senile old farts head over to a great site call contractor talk.


----------



## caveeagle (Jul 22, 2013)

Bondo said:


> ..For caveeagle,.... I've been wrenchin' on cars, 'n trucks, 'n equipment since the late 60s,....
> I don't need a piece of paper taped to my toolbox tellin' me what I've learn in all these years,...
> My education is from life's experiences...


Thats cool.. I actually appreciate that as much or more than the ASE patch. Just saying I would be carefull telling folks that a factory recommended fluid change is not needed. And if I did, I would try to back it up with some data and facts.



> ..Yer analysis of the Florida puddles problem actually backs up, exactly what I said,...
> The corrosion starts _Outside_ the sealed fluid envelope,...


The moisture can come from both ends of the system. In through the dust covers and past the seals, in through the master cyl, or from contaminated fluid thats been sitting around collecting moisture. In any case, moisture tends to get in there and spreads through the system.



> Growin' up in eastern Maine, 'n livin' up here in the snowbelt for nearly 40 years,...
> I'll trade ya yer Florida puddles, for my 6 months a year of road salt, any day of the week,....
> You don't even know what real corrosion is,......
> 
> ...


----------



## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

caveeagle said:


> Thats cool.. Just saying I would be careful telling folks that a factory recommended fluid change is not needed. And if I did, I would try to back it up with some data and facts.


Apparently he doesn't need facts, since he is right and *everyone else is wrong*.


----------



## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

This is like threads about oil and tires on auto sites. Lots of controversy. I had a mechanic friend change the brake fluid on my 1995 Harley in 2010. They were fine but he offered and I thought why not. Hit the brakes at the first stop sign and just about went over the bars. There's all sorts of sites that discuss this. No system is completely sealed at depending on the DOT, fluid will absorb air or water over time which can change their performance. I've heard of bike brakes locking because air in the system expands with generated heat. I did my newer bike after 2 years (easy even with ABS) and noticed rear system fluid noticeably darker. Pros and cons but I figure its cheap insurance even if you pay somebody.


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

caveeagle said:


> Hey, I never said your wheels would fall off if you didn't change out the brake fluid every 3 yrs. Just that there is pretty good reason change it out at some interval, and that I would certainly not advocate for letting it run the life of your car.


Never in my life have I ever done a brake fluid flush. I have never seen corrosion on the inside of a brake system (opened lots of them) and I have never once witnessed worn out brake fluid.

You want to waste your money on brake fluid changes, that's your business, but please don't try and tell me bad things are going to happen if I don't.


----------



## caveeagle (Jul 22, 2013)

Bob Sanders said:


> Never in my life have I ever done a brake fluid flush. I have never seen corrosion on the inside of a brake system (opened lots of them) and I have never once witnessed worn out brake fluid.
> 
> You want to waste your money on brake fluid changes, that's your business, but please don't try and tell me bad things are going to happen if I don't.


Wow, did I say "bad things will happen"? So youve done tons of brake jobs and never seen a corroded wheel cyl or caliper. Great! Maybe your lucky, of maybe your working on newer or better maintained stuff then me. In either case... Great on you! I have worked on plenty of cars, and lots of old vintage fords. frozen drum brake wheel cylinders are pretty common in my experience.

Maybe this is must a terminology issue that is making this conversation 'disagreeable'. Have you guys never bled brakes? Do you not add clean fluid to the MC? Do you not typically bleed the system until you get clear fluid with no bubbles? Thats pretty much how I "flush" a brake system when I am working on it. I did flush out the fluid on my '04 cobra at ~50k miles. The fluid wasn't really even that dark, but I had it up with the wheels off and wanted to get clean fluid throughout. That car's calipers are pretty 'spensive.


----------



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

ktkelly said:


> Apparently he doesn't need facts, since he is right and *everyone else is wrong*.


Ayuh,... Apparently, yer readin' more than I'm writin',....

I'll type slower,... I expressed, my _Opinion_,.....



> Have you guys never bled brakes?


Of course, when the system is opened for repairs,.....

Just to bleed/ flush a perfectly good workin' brake system,..?? 'ell, No,....


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

caveeagle said:


> Maybe this is must a terminology issue that is making this conversation 'disagreeable'. Have you guys never bled brakes? Do you not add clean fluid to the MC?


Bleeding brakes after a repair or topping off low fluid levels are entirely different animals than doing a complete flush in an effort to replace 'old worn, water soaked' fluid.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Quite a few insults being hurled in here over some brake fluid. 

Someone being certified doesn't mean crap in my opinion (i.e. ASE Certified) as much as the person holding the certification. I have met and seen plenty of ASE certified folks that have worked on my car that have no business changing oil let alone a system that halts my car to a stop. 

While I think some of the prescriptive fluid change theories are great, don't think for a second that they weren't pushed on some fronts to generate shop business and revenue. 

Most margins on new car sales are very lean and the dealerships count mostly service after the fact to balance the books. 

I do believe in proper fluid changes but when it comes to brakes, I would only do that as part of a brake service. Most folks are probably getting less than 60K to a set of brakes and what that amounts to in years of service depends on the driver. 

If the car is sitting for long periods of time, alternative fluids (as mentioned previously) would be a good idea. 

I do most flushes and fluid changes on my vehicles but I log enough miles to do it in conjunction with service when it comes to the brakes.


----------



## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Windows on Wash said:


> Quite a few insults being hurled in here over some brake fluid.


Yes there is...Lets keep it civil in here please. For those that may have forgot here's our Posting Rules.


----------



## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

caveeagle said:


> Wow, did I say "bad things will happen"? So youve done tons of brake jobs and never seen a corroded wheel cyl or caliper. Great! Maybe your lucky, of maybe your working on newer or better maintained stuff then me. In either case... Great on you! I have worked on plenty of cars, and lots of old vintage fords. frozen drum brake wheel cylinders are pretty common in my experience.
> 
> Maybe this is must a terminology issue that is making this conversation 'disagreeable'. Have you guys never bled brakes? Do you not add clean fluid to the MC? Do you not typically bleed the system until you get clear fluid with no bubbles? Thats pretty much how I "flush" a brake system when I am working on it. I did flush out the fluid on my '04 cobra at ~50k miles. The fluid wasn't really even that dark, but I had it up with the wheels off and wanted to get clean fluid throughout. That car's calipers are pretty 'spensive.


Just to weigh in, I don't bleed mine for PM. 

Bleeding the fluid will have no effect on a frozen wheel cylinder. The pistons are after the hydraulic seals. If old / degraded / contaminated fluid gets to the wheel cylinder pistons, you have a leaking cylinder. 

It may have an effect on calipers sticking, but I usually see the sliders stick first.


----------



## caveeagle (Jul 22, 2013)

kwikfishron said:


> Yes there is...Lets keep it civil in here please. For those that may have forgot here's our Posting Rules.


Thanks for reigning it in. I was certainly not trying to slam anyone. Just talking about vehicle brakes on a DIY forum is pretty sensitive, IMHO. Some folks will read stuff here and take it as Gospel, potentially leading to a safety issue. Its ok to say "I think this", or "I do this, because" etc. But to equate changing brake fluid (per OEM Spec) to "changing blinker fluid" is just not right, and should be called out. (respectully, of course)

Be safe folks!


----------



## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

@op

You should be able to bleed the brakes as long as you do not allow any air to enter the ABS controller. Some of the older 90-00's Mopars you had to use the scanner to bleed the controllers, some even had to be put on a hoist at a specific degree to bleed them, the Intrepids and their equals. 

As far as actually bleeding them I would shy away from a power bleeder. When I was in school during the brake/drive line/chassis quarter no way the the instructor would allow you to use a power bleeder. They often would suck in to much air and/or you could not fill the master cylinder fast enough. 

We always used the vacuum hand held bleeders, the old fashion way or gravity bleeding works very well.


As for needing to change the fluid, well it does absorb moisture. The dark color comes from heat and moisture. Heat will in fact "wear" out the fluid and by wear out I'm talking about boiling off the additives in the fluid as well as lowering the max Temp the fluid will perform at.


----------

