# Cordless power tool brands - What's your fave?



## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

About 15 years ago, my parents bought me a DeWalt 12 volt cordless drill. I've used the crap out of it and loved it, but it's reached the end of it's wonderful life. I've been looking over 18 volt DeWalt drills to replace it and was caught by sticker shock. 

I can't deny that my DeWalt has been a very good drill as I've used it a lot over the years. But I do have to watch my dollars, and I'm worried I'm paying too much just for the brand name. Should I look at Porter-Cable? Bosch? Milwaukee?

My question to all of you is this - what good/bad results have you personally had with what different brands of power tools?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Spiff--Believe it or not---I use Ryobe---Tough--never killed one yet,and I'm tough on tools--

The batteries are cheap,too. $59. for two. I had 5 of the 14.4---Now I have 4 of the 18 volt--

I can't complain---The first one was a Christmas present--I will admit to being a bit of a tool snob:laughing: Never would have even looked at that brand--

But the drills work just fine-----My 2 cents.--Mike--


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## ajtool (May 30, 2010)

I got several ryobi 18volt tools. 

Though I am interested in getting the milwaukee hackzall m12 kit with the small drill. I can get the kit for 200 and they even toss in another battery


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

I have a number of the relatively inexpensive Ryobi 18 volt tools I carry in the vehicle as I assume they will eventually be stolen, and I've been surprised at their reliability. 

The conventional 18V batteries have a poor run time, but I've been very impressed with the performance of the compact size LI batteries (I've not tried the full-sized version) which are small, light, and have amazing durability for their size, and in combination with somewhat somewhat smaller (and more expensive) version of the 18V drill are the best 1/2" drill I've owned for overhead work.


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Several thumbs up for Ryobi...I'm surprised to hear that! Good info, though! :thumbsup:


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## Tizzer (Jul 24, 2010)

I have a 3yr. old Ryobi 18v. ni-clad drill & light combo. Came with 2 batteries.
I like that drill but bought an 18v Milwaukee about a year ago. Both have been good for what I use them for.
Home Depot/Lowes will have better deals when Christmas gets closer.


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## canadaclub (Oct 19, 2006)

I also love my Ryobi cordless drill and impact drivers. The only time I saw them fail was high torque situations such as 3/8" x 3" long lags into oak.

My caution to anyone purchasing the Ryobi product is to stay away from the cordless circular saw. You won't get torque...you'd get took.

The laminate cutter they have works well though, even compared to a Rigid wired laminate cutter Its small enough for hinge routing


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I have a Ryobi drywall roto zip--(Another gift) I love that thing for smaller jobs--


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

i am a makita man, but haven't tried their lithium ion stuff yet


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Ryobi are the Edsels of the tool world.Because they are cheap.

What's improtant to ask is what made the De Walt so good? It was that the gears and motor are much more durable than Ryobi. They are made for the commercial construction and trades. They are more heavy duty than Ryobi and have some ver nice warranties...three years ...one year exchange. 

You will find the Milwaukee and Bosch are similar in price but well worth it.

My son works for Bosch and he says they are one of the toughest tools around.
I agree. I have a ten volt lithium ion swivel head I install whole furnace on a single battery charge charge with juice to spare. 

I think if you compare the amount of usage you got out of your De Walt with the typical Ryobi owner you will find you used your De Walt much more.

New helper showed up for work with a Ryobi. it died half way thru. I loaned him a De Walt, Now he want's to buy it from me. 

He's a good kid so I gave it to him (I got mores cordless stuff then i need).

My tool of choice is my Milwaukee 18v hammer drill. It eats Ryobi and craps Makitas .


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> What's improtant to ask is what made the De Walt so good? .


MARKETING!!! DeWalt is a mediocore tool with a FANTASTIC marketing dept


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I've had to loan my 'cheap ' drills out to many a DeWalt drill owner---I don't think they hold up and better- and the batteries cost $65--Each.


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## canadaclub (Oct 19, 2006)

hvaclover said:


> Ryobi are the Edsels of the tool world.Because they are cheap.
> 
> .


 
Well, my Edsels have worked. Maybe your son should work with tools instead of selling them, then he would know.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

De Walt Milwaukee Makita and Bosch dominate the cordless market.


No amount of advertising can increase a tools market share if it's poor quality.

You can't polish a turd.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

canadaclub said:


> Well, my Edsels have worked. Maybe your son should work with tools instead of selling them, then he would know.


My son ran my installation team and has installed more hvac systems then I can remember. He knows how to use tools. We are talking tools, not family. Let's keep it friendly.

A little macho tool talk is all in fun.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> No amount of advertising can increase a tools market share if it's poor quality.
> 
> You can't polish a turd.


that's EXACTLY what they did. DeWalt was just yellow B&D tools back in the 80's. Same parts interchanged, same dies and molds were used. It was nothing more than marketing and it worked. Once they grew the marketshare they actually made the tool cheaper, by that point everyone was too invested in batteries and chargers to make a change.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The amount of market share that De Walt has is all the evidence needed to prove it's quality.

If you are using your Ryobi only for home projects than you are not putting to to a true test.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> The amount of market share that De Walt has is all the evidence needed to prove it's quality.


So by that logic Ford must be far superior to Bently & Lambrogini


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Apples to oranges.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Apples to oranges.


Not at all. it's the same thing, middle of the road quality, marketed to the masses. not the best tool on the market, not the worst. Priced right so it ends up in everybodys tool box ( just like a ford explorer in every other driveway). People love to hate them. if your son works for Bosch, he knows its true...


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yeah. real even comparison.

A mass produced family vehicle around 20 grand, compared to hand built multi hundred thousand dollar luxury cars.


bwahahahhahahhhahhahahahahahahahhahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> yeah. real even comparison.
> 
> A mass produced family vehicle around 20 grand, compared to hand built multi hundred thousand dollar luxury cars.
> 
> ...


ok, substitute any car brand in the $50k range. Point is price and marketing earned Dewalt a huge amount of market share, that by no means makes them the best or even very good
. it's a good tool for the money, just like a ford explorer, and yes B&D did figure out how to put lipstick on a pig


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm in the trades. A guy shows up on a work site with Ryobi he gets sent home.

Why? because Ryobi can't stand up to the the demands. Half thru the day the Ryobi motors over heat and the plastic gears strip. That slows down a job.

I must assume that you only use yours for jobs around the house.

Where i live there are a lot of tradesman, and self employed tades.

I own an HVAC business. Even my residential customers are smart enough to stay away from Ryobi.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> I'm in the trades. A guy shows up on a work site with Ryobi he gets sent home.
> 
> Why? because Ryobi can't stand up to the the demands. Half thru the day the Ryobi motors over heat and the plastic gears strip. That slows down a job.
> 
> ...


????/ I have never owned a Ryobi in my life. The majoritiy of my stuff is Makita, I have some Hilti, and some Milwaukee. I know a little bit about tools....


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Mr Chips said:


> ????/ I have never owned a Ryobi in my life. The majoritiy of my stuff is Makita, I have some Hilti, and some Milwaukee. I know a little bit about tools....


OOOOhhhhhhh..I get it (wink -wink) a closet Ryobi owner!

Hey, you were the one defending Ryobi. Don't blame me.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm gonna bend some sheet metal for tomorrow's job. I will be polishing my De Walt 24Volt cordless and an old Dewal 3/4" corded power drill made of metal.

That thing is as old as I am.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> I'm gonna bend some sheet metal for tomorrow's job. I will be polishing my De Walt 24Volt cordless and an old Dewal 3/4" corded power drill made of metal.
> 
> That thing is as old as I am.


 
That old Dewalt is no relation to the current DeWalt. Black & Decker really started using the DeWalt name to rebrand their existing tools in the early 90's. The stuff from the the 60's -80's have nothing in common other than the name


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Based on the information in this thread so far, it appears my best option is to take my old, dying DeWalt drill and go work with hvaclover for a day or so until he feels sorry enough to give me some of his extra cordless tools.

And now back to the DeWalt argument!!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

spaceman spif said:


> Based on the information in this thread so far, it appears my best option is to take my old, dying DeWalt drill and go work with hvaclover for a day or so until he feels sorry enough to give me some of his extra cordless tools.
> 
> And now back to the DeWalt argument!!


C'mon down! can always use a motivated guy. You want a 14 or 18volt De Walt?:laughing::whistling2:

Seriously, have you checked into having it refurbished? They do that you know.

I am a granddad and I am still using my Dad's old 3/4 drill. It takes a beating and wont stop.
Just had to replace the brushes. The rebuild guy wants to buy it from me but it has too much sentimental value.


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## aggreX (Aug 15, 2008)

Mr Chips said:


> MARKETING!!! DeWalt is a mediocore tool with a FANTASTIC marketing dept


Mediocre? I like the 18V Dewalt power tools because of the Nano lithium battery, Rohm drill chucks and metal gears. My blue 18V Ryobi is a good drill that I have rejuvenated with the new lithium batteries (can't stand the new lime-green colors). Good lender or backup drill and definitely not as powerful as the Dewalt. Ryobis are very cost-effective powertools with a versatile 18V battery system that powers a huge variety of tools.......just skip the reciprocating saw for HD work. Milwaukee used to be one of my favorite power tools but ever since their takeover by OWT they are not that special anymore. My Makita 18V impact driver is highly rated for its power and light ergonomic shape. Bosch is well designed and durable......can't go wrong with any of these winners


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

aggreX said:


> Mediocre? I like the 18V Dewalt power tools <snip>. My blue 18V Ryobi is a good drill <snip> Milwaukee used to be one of my favorite power tools <snip>. My Makita 18V impact driver is highly rated for its power and light ergonomic shape. Bosch is well designed and durable......can't go wrong with any of these winners


That's EXACTLY what I mean by mediocre. They have some decent tools, some pretty ones, and some dogs as well. They are not high-end, nor harbor frieght specials, that's what mediocre means...average, middle of the road, what ever.

I'm not knocking them, just saying they aren't as special as those that drank the kool-aid coming out of their marketing department like to say they are. They are an average( mediocre) tool, with an above average market share. A lot like Ford in the auto industry, or Budweiser in the world of beer. None of these are phenomal products, just marketed extremely well.

I was simply responding to a post that implied that they were a superior "high-end" brand, and that there market share was a testement to that fact


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Mr Chips said:


> That's EXACTLY what I mean by mediocre. They have some decent tools, some pretty ones, and some dogs as well. They are not high-end, nor harbor frieght specials, that's what mediocre means...average, middle of the road, what ever.
> 
> I'm not knocking them, just saying they aren't as special as those that drank the kool-aid coming out of their marketing department like to say they are. They are an average( mediocre) tool, with an above average market share. A lot like Ford in the auto industry, or Budweiser in the world of beer. None of these are phenomal products, just marketed extremely well.
> 
> I was simply responding to a post that implied that they were a superior "high-end" brand, and that there market share was a testement to that fact


FYI----Ford has the highest quality of any mfg import or domestic. Yep, even Toyota.
And it's not because they advertise. It's because they worked hard to improve overall design and fabrication.

The public picked up on it because they liked what they saw and bought it.

Try taking a marketing class. I do sales for a living and I know what motivates a consumer to yes or no to a product. And that's quality.

You have a personal bias to pwer tools and you aren't even a tradesman by your screen title as a "DIY HACK". So what does a hack know?:laughing:


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> FYI----Ford has the highest quality of any mfg import or domestic. Yep, even Toyota.
> And it's not because they advertise. It's because they worked hard to improve overall design and fabrication.
> 
> The public picked up on it because they liked what they saw and bought it.
> ...


I have a "personal bias to power tools"? that's funny. I am in no way attacking them, but you are taking my observations ver personally and blindly defending them. that's what good marketing does. You definelty drank the Kool-Aid. " Stay thirsty my friend!!".....


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Mr Chips said:


> I have a "personal bias to power tools"? that's funny. I am in no way attacking them, but you are taking my observations ver personally and blindly defending them. that's what good marketing does. You definelty drank the Kool-Aid. " Stay thirsty my friend!!".....


No. I am putting out verifiable facts on your belief that a "mediocre" product 
can not get the market that De Walt and Ford have with out it being better than you say i.e. a quality product.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> No. I am putting out verifiable facts on your belief that a "mediocre" product
> can not get the market that De Walt and Ford have with out it being better than you say i.e. a quality product.


Sure you can, as long as you offer a good value proposition, and strong marketing you'll grow market share. From the mid 90's -2004 DeWalt spent $$$$ to put their logo everywhere, billboards, city buses, NASCAR. it was really unheard of in the industrial tool market. they literally made themselves a houshold name.


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## WirelessG (Mar 22, 2009)

I have several DeWalt tools, although the only cordless one is my drill. Corded or cordless, they are great tools. The fact that B&D owns them has nothing to do with it. GM makes corvettes and crappy commuters. Companies that I have worked for have a junk line, an intermediate line, and top line of products - what separates them are the specification demands and the tolerances.

For corded DeWalts I own:
router
12" comp miter
12" sliding comp miter
16 ga nailer
3/8 drill
1/2 hammer drill
recip saw
table saw (the little dw744)
circ saw
bench grinder
12" planer
and I'm sure there's something else that I forgot about.

I can't think of one complaint for any of them. Even the little table saw has a fence that is superior to any other that I've seen (rack and pinion - zero play, zero float).

I also own Powermatic, Porter Cable, Milwaukee, Rigid, Metabo, and Lincoln Electric. Rigid is as low as I go. I will never buy a Ryobi and if I were given a Ryobi as a gift, I would grind it until it was dust, put the dust in a ziplock bag, wrap the bag with 5 rolls of duct tape, lock the taped bag in a home safe, seal weld the safe, dig a 12' hole, throw the safe in the hole, pour concrete in the hole, build a house on top of the hole, and then pull a Grizzly Adams and head for the Rockies. Just my 2 cents.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

That's the beauty of great marketing, it builds strong feelings of brand loyalty. We could easily be having this debate about Ford vs Chevy, Coke vs Pepsi, Sony vs Pioneer, Microsoft vs Apple, etc....

For my money, Makita makes the best cordless tools. They are rugged, lightweight, and more ergonomic than DeWalts cordless offering. For the average home owner, Ryobi offers a lot of bang for the buck. Panasonic has a couple great tools in their cordless offering, but the selection is pretty limited, and they've done a terrible job getting these into contractors hands.

True, I am not a tradesman (which is why i belong to the DIY Chatroom), but I have sold several brands of power tools for a long time, and and participated in testing at commercial job sites across the country. I know contractors that swear by just about every brand out there, and when it comes to DeWalt it seems to be either a love them or hate them situation.

I am not saying they are junk, but I don't think they are superior overall to most of the other big brands out there. They are clearly above average when it comes to marketing. They have done a tremendous job at brand building and certainly deserve a lot of credit for that. The DeWalt brand was reborn because Black & Decker's market research showed the brand was thought of in much the same way Ryobi is thought of today, so they made the tools yellow, slapped a new brand badge on them, and marketed the heck out of the exact same tools, only to contractors instead of home owners. It's deffinetly one of the biggest (if not *the* biggest) marketing succes stories in the tool industry in the last 30 years.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

WirelessG said:


> The fact that B&D owns them has nothing to do with it. GM makes corvettes and crappy commuters. .


It doesn't matter today, but it did matter back when the brand was taking off. They were selling a lot of the exact same tools, under two different brand names. The only thing different was the name and the color. Gears, motors and such were exactly the same, and the schematics back in the day even listed the exact same internal part numbers. The brand has certainly evolved, but when they were growing their market share, it was all through marketing. This is what allowed them to get to where they are today. It was a lot like VW selling the Chrysler Town & Country ( or Dodge Grand Caravan) as the Routon, or when Honda first launched the Passport, it was simply an Isuzu Rodeo sold under a different brand ( but in the early model years when you popped the hood of a Honda Passport the motor had a big Isuzu logo right on it!!)


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

I think I'm going to buy a Ryobi and a DeWalt. Just to make sure I've offended pretty much everyone in this thread to some degree.


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## moopey (Sep 14, 2010)

im just a homeowner and have ryobi. i bought my first home a year ago and needed tools to start getting the place move in ready. i dropped my nut on closing costs and was on a killer budget, i bought the ryobi 18v kit with drill, 5-1/2" circular saw and like for like 80 bucks. since then i've purchased their 18v impact driver. over the last year i've used the tools alot. my conclusion, the drill has held up ok, the circular saw absolutely blows. the impact driver has held up the best (and gets the most use). the batteries on the other hand are a joke. After a year, I'm constantly switching them out during the day. and forget about using the saw. I get just enough juice to barely cut though a piece of 1X12 pvc.

I kick myself for not getting something better to begin with and i kick myself even more for buying the impact gun instead of a better brand simply because it took the same battery as the stuff i have now.

If you're a homeowner and want to save money, buy the ryobi drill/drivers, stay away from battery powered saws, and at least get the lithium battery powered stuff.

I'm secretly hoping my current ryobi stuff craps out on me so i can upgrade. haha.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

moopey said:


> im just a homeowner and have ryobi. i bought my first home a year ago and needed tools to start getting the place move in ready. i dropped my nut on closing costs and was on a killer budget, i bought the ryobi 18v kit with drill, 5-1/2" circular saw and like for like 80 bucks. since then i've purchased their 18v impact driver. over the last year i've used the tools alot. my conclusion, the drill has held up ok, the circular saw absolutely blows. the impact driver has held up the best (and gets the most use). the batteries on the other hand are a joke. After a year, I'm constantly switching them out during the day. and forget about using the saw. I get just enough juice to barely cut though a piece of 1X12 pvc.


Cordless circ saws are one of the items that most manufacturers have struggled with over the years. They have all put out some dogs in this category! Makita had an awesome one in their MakStar line. It was available in 24v and took regular 7-1/4 blades. The downsides were it weighed a ton, and was mucho dinero ( and a lot of American money too). 

Your Ryobi observations are spot on, but for $80 for a two piece set, it's still a good value if you are just using around the house and have realistic expectations of what an $80 set should do. with most of the other brands, you'd pay nearly $80 just for a battery.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

moopey said:


> im just a homeowner and have ryobi. i bought my first home a year ago and needed tools to start getting the place move in ready. i dropped my nut on closing costs and was on a killer budget, i bought the ryobi 18v kit with drill, 5-1/2" circular saw and like for like 80 bucks. since then i've purchased their 18v impact driver. over the last year i've used the tools alot. my conclusion, the drill has held up ok, the circular saw absolutely blows. the impact driver has held up the best (and gets the most use). the batteries on the other hand are a joke. After a year, I'm constantly switching them out during the day. and forget about using the saw. I get just enough juice to barely cut though a piece of 1X12 pvc.
> 
> I kick myself for not getting something better to begin with and i kick myself even more for buying the impact gun instead of a better brand simply because it took the same battery as the stuff i have now.
> 
> ...


For a small household jobs Ryobi is ok. But when you earn your living using a cordless tool your Ryobi won't make it.
I h ope you get something that will last longer. All of the big names have some lower priced cordless tools that cost a little more than Ryobi, but it's worth the investment.


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## WirelessG (Mar 22, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> For a small household jobs Ryobi is ok. But when you earn your living using a cordless tool your Ryobi won't make it.
> I h ope you get something that will last longer. All of the big names have some lower priced cordless tools that cost a little more than Ryobi, but it's worth the investment.


such as grinding ryobi tools into dust to be placed in a ziplock back and wrapped in 5 rolls of duct tape, and placed in a home safe.....:laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

WirelessG said:


> such as grinding ryobi tools into dust to be placed in a ziplock back and wrapped in 5 rolls of duct tape, and placed in a home safe.....:laughing:


yeah but don't get cut....if you bleed on Ryobi tool dust it will resurrect just like Chis Lee (my avatar) in "Dracula Prince of Darkness".....:laughing: .


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## n9pbt (Aug 8, 2010)

I like the Makita LXT lithium battery tools. I have a drill and impact driver that have never let me down. I own some DeWalt tools, but after the cordless circular saw let me down, I went to Makita and never looked back. Pricey, but well worth it.


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## WirelessG (Mar 22, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> yeah but don't get cut....if you bleed on Ryobi tool dust it will resurrect just like Chis Lee (my avatar) in "Dracula Prince of Darkness".....:laughing: .


Actually, I heard that if the dust gets in your veins, you end up being late for work most days and hardly working when you get there.:laughing:


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## tdub (Sep 17, 2010)

Over the years I have owned and/or used nearly all the major manufacturers cordless drills. Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt, Skil, you name it. The one I liked the best is is far and away the Panasonic. Expensive? You bet, but it is THE BEST drill I have ever used and you couldn't pry it out of my hand.


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## wnabcptrNH (Jan 29, 2010)

I prefer makita. that is all


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## MooseWoodworks (Dec 30, 2010)

Milwaukee has always treated me well. My dad went from a Makita 18v to a Craftsman 19.2 volt and he liked both of those really well. 

At the end of the day, if I'm going to get a new cordless tool, I will be shopping Makita/Milwaukee first, Craftsman second, and then everything else. I think Craftsman's cordless line gets overlooked a lot, but it offers some good stuff imho.


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## canadaclub (Oct 19, 2006)

tdub said:


> The one I liked the best is is far and away the Panasonic. Expensive? You bet, but it is THE BEST drill I have ever used and you couldn't pry it out of my hand.


 
Hmmm..so Panasonic makes a crummy pry bar?:laughing:


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## dtsman (Jan 1, 2011)

I like my Hitachi 18v. It is half the weight of my Dewalt 18v. When I was installing cable tv, I used the Dewalt for hammerdrill purposes to drill through brick, but when I had to put in 20+ clips to run a cable around a house overhang, I used the Hitachi (non hammer drill)to save my arm. Both good drills.

Porter Cable is a great name in tools, why are the 18v tools so cheap at the stores?


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## ctedone (Jan 5, 2011)

*Makita.. for sure*

I have used Makita, and DeWalt tools at work, both nice, but the Makita far outshines the yellow stuff.

On my own, I used to have a set of Bosch tools for years. Great stuff.

Moved 1500 miles away, and bought a house. I had no power tools, and got a great deal on Ryobi combo. They are nothing special, but get the job done, and you can't beat the price.

When we are back in the black, I plan on buying a good set of 18v LXT Makita tools, but for now, the Ryobi set does what we need, and at a great price. Battery life is not so great, but the tools work, in rough conditions.

I would not buy DeWalt, they are OK, but not worth the premium.
Having a few Ridgid plug-in tools, I'm most definitely learning to respect this brand. Will try their cordless stuff before I upgrade.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

I started in the 80's with the old Makita 7.2V Ni Cad Drill.

I was 100% happy with it

Now I have Bosch 12V, Panasonic 14.4V, & DeWalt 18V

Still 100% happy with all of them.

But most happy with the Lightweight 14.4V Panasonic
now that it has a 3.0Ah Li-Ion Battery Pack
.


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## piste (Oct 7, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> De Walt Milwaukee Makita and Bosch dominate the cordless market.
> 
> 
> No amount of advertising can increase a tools market share if it's poor quality.
> ...


Are you kidding me? This world is full of polished turds that people can't wait to acquire. Quality is not the only parameter either..it's value which includes price amongst other things. McDonalds is a marketing machine and has large market share...and that ain't exactly quality food. DeWalt may or may not be a good value and/or quality....but as a general statement "excellent" marketing can go a LONG way to increase sales despite inferior quality.

I'm a Makita fan for 18V LiIon drills/drivers. My saws I like corded and have Milwaukee Sawzall and circular...and Bosch corded jig.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

piste said:


> Are you kidding me? This world is full of polished turds that people can't wait to acquire. Quality is not the only parameter either..it's value which includes price amongst other things. McDonalds is a marketing machine and has large market share...and that ain't exactly quality food. DeWalt may or may not be a good value and/or quality....but as a general statement "excellent" marketing can go a LONG way to increase sales despite inferior quality.
> 
> I'm a Makita fan for 18V LiIon drills/drivers. My saws I like corded and have Milwaukee Sawzall and circular...and Bosch corded jig.


Food is not in the same category as tools. I don't eat at McDonald's and neither does my family.
Food is horrible.

But i won't argue the success of of their marketing even though I don't eat there.

But surely for anyone who makes a living with their tools you can't believe that a strong marketing campaign, no matter how aggressive, will keep you buying the same brand of tool over and over if they keep failing, do you?


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

This country is brand obsessed and we have a lot of brand licensing, because many people buy by brand and success of one product significantly affects the success of other products. 

Some don't associate "Black & Decker" with quality, but some of those people see DeWalt as quality. 

Stanley Black and Decker owns DeWalt brand. 

So, if the higher end high quality tools sold under DeWalt name is well made, they can use the brand recognition to sell lower end stuff they sold as "Black & Decker" in DeWalt yellow to home owners and contractors with pride who "won't be caught dead slingin' Ryobis" 

GM pimps up a Tahoe and sells as a Cadillac Escalade, rather than Chevrolet Tahoe ESCL so people can say "mah Escalade/Caddy" rather than "mah Chevrolet"


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Define "Brand Obsessed Country". :huh: To be obsessed about something means to desire it just for the sake of owning it regardless of manufacture. So by extension the NON-OBSESSED would not want brand names?
If that were true then:

If we didn't have brand names would the "Non-Obsessed" say "Give me the good cordless drill"? and hope the guy behind the counter gives a tool that will last?
How would we know the quality products vs the mediocre with out brand names?

In reality good stuff-bad stuff- mediocre stuff all have brand names.

So that is why your term "Brand Obsessed" is confusing to me.

Please explain:whistling2:


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Define "Brand Obsessed Country". :huh: To be obsessed about something means to desire it just for the sake of owning it regardless of manufacture. So by extension the NON-OBSESSED would not want brand names?


No, it wouldn't mean that the non-obsessed would not_ want_ brand names, it would mean that they wouldn't _neccasarily be loyal to_ them.

If you are confused at what he meant by this, look at the licensing example he was using. deWalt will basically rent their brand name to anyone willing to pay for it. You can buy dewalt branded jeans, shoes, gloves, drill bit tips, countersinks, etc... all made by companies who only have one thing to do with Dewalt, and that's the fact that they rented their brand name. Why would they do do this? Because to some the name DeWalt means something, so( by extension) if a drill with the DeWalt brand name is good qualitiy, it stands to reason that a pair of jeans or safety glasses with the dewalt name is equally good. Sports are another example. Slap a certain teams logo on anything, and you instantly have a market for it.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> Define "Brand Obsessed Country". :huh: To be obsessed about something means to desire it just for the sake of owning it regardless of manufacture. So by extension the NON-OBSESSED would not want brand names?
> If that were true then:
> 
> If we didn't have brand names would the "Non-Obsessed" say "Give me the good cordless drill"? and hope the guy behind the counter gives a tool that will last?
> How would we know the quality products vs the mediocre with out brand names?


From not generalizing by brand. The members of contractor side of this chat room tend to be biased toward "Made in USA" without objectively valid reasons. 



> In reality good stuff-bad stuff- mediocre stuff all have brand names.


Which is exactly why you can't assume the quality of products from one brand based on one product sample or anecdotal evidence. 

There are some people who absolutely swear by Chevy brand because he's happy with the one truck he has.

There are people who despise Ford's because a family member died when their Windstar crashed into a tree and thought it didn't live up to crash ratings, thus condemning the brand. 

With ever increasing brand licensing(letting others use your name), rebadging(buying from someone else's product based on their design but putting your logo on) and contract manufacturing(having someone else build it to your specs) "brand" is not really the "make" as much as it is the intellectual property of some holding company these days. I think it isn't all that much about quality as much as it is about managing "brand image" these days. 



> So that is why your term "Brand Obsessed" is confusing to me.
> Please explain:whistling2:


Someone who's rather be seen driving a BMW than a Kia. BMW of course wants to enforce. People who buy a product with such thing in consideration is partly "brand obsessed". Isn't there the element of wanting to show off "all that yellow" in buying DeWalts but not wanting to be see with Home Depot Ryobi?

One of the few valid reasons to be a brand sack rider is if the manufacturer/brand holder sells products utilizing impressive patented technology that's not matched by any of the competitors. That's one of the ways second class gains ground too. If Ryobi comes up with a patented technology that turns out useful in products and they do not license that technology out, you have to suck it up and buy their stuff or do away with the feature.



Mr Chips said:


> Sure you can, as long as you offer a good value proposition, and strong marketing you'll grow market share. From the mid 90's -2004 DeWalt spent $$$$ to put their logo everywhere, billboards, city buses, NASCAR. it was really unheard of in the industrial tool market. they literally made themselves a houshold name.


It's all about brand recognition and perception. Brands are then used accordingly to differentiate products. 

Most home electronics with "GE" brand have nothing to do with GE.

Iconic American brands like Westinghouse and Budweiser aren't what some people think they are.

Westinghouse is strictly a brand management company that is owned by CBS News in NY. The Westinghouse division's only role today is management license to the iconic "W" logo. 

Budweiser "King of Beer" is now a Belgian beer, but still maintains strong brand recognition and loyalty from people your age.



Mr Chips said:


> It doesn't matter today, but it did matter back when the brand was taking off. They were selling a lot of the exact same tools, under two different brand names.


Much like Rheem, Ruud, Weather King. They used to have different model #s, but today they have exactly the same model.

Many Rheem and Ruud are identical products, except for the sticker, yet Ruud dealers and Rheem dealers are different. Wholesalers usually only carry one brand or the other, and even brochures and manuals are the same word for word, except for Rheem/Ruud, slogans and logos.


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## piste (Oct 7, 2009)

Pick most any product...find an internet forum focused on it...and you can fairly easily find what amount to religious wars between folks as to which brand is "better"...but in many of those cases there are several if not many manufacturers making decent quality, value products. Oftentimes people exhibit a bias toward a product and focus more on the name on the product label than they do on the objective attributes and quality of that product.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

piste said:


> Pick most any product...find an internet forum focused on it...and you can fairly easily find what amount to religious wars between folks as to which brand is "better"...but in many of those cases there are several if not many manufacturers making decent quality, value products. Oftentimes people exhibit a bias toward a product and focus more on the name on the product label than they do on the objective attributes and quality of that product.


This is true especially with DMMs. On some sites if the pros find out you don't have a Fluke you are almost shunned. LOL religious war is a good comparison.

The real bottom line on the tool question is if something works for you just use it.

But expect to be razed just a little bit. Because we are guys and razing is what we do best.


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## itguy08 (Jan 11, 2011)

I've had good luck with my 2005 or so era Craftsman 19.2V drill. Has been a great tool for all these years. In the last 6 months it's: mixed a couple buckets of self leveling concrete for our bathroom floor, a bucket of grout (sucked the life out of 2 batteries in no time), did the sheetrock screws in another room, built a workbench, etc. Probably not as good as a high end machine but for my use over the years it's been great. 

I've picked up some of the other tools for the line as well (Jigsaw, spiral saw, another drill, sander) and added a LiIon battery. The other tools seem to work great as well.

May not be the absolute best but good enough and get the job done.


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