# Whole house surge protector - no extra breakers



## quantumspores (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I am looking for a whole house surge protector that does NOT require the use of extra breakers. Most of these devices want you to wire them in to two separate breakers, but alas, I have none. Is there anything on the market that will fit my needs?

Thanks!
JRS


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

quantumspores said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am looking for a whole house surge protector that does NOT require the use of extra breakers. Most of these devices want you to wire them in to two separate breakers, but alas, I have none. Is there anything on the market that will fit my needs?
> 
> ...


You need to free up two breaker locations.


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## quantumspores (Jul 8, 2012)

As stated, I am looking for a product that DOES NOT require the use of two breaker slots. I am fully aware of the standard products like Eaton or Leviton that require the availability of two breakers.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

How did you plan on terminating the conductors if you didn't use a breaker? Best advice I can give you is to install a sub panel, free up some breaker space, and install your surge protector...


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## quantumspores (Jul 8, 2012)

I considered the subpanel. The best option I found so far is a Siemens SPD that includes two built-in breakers.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produ...cuit-Breaker-and-Surge-Protective-Device.aspx


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

If you do not want a whole house panel surge, you can talk to your utility company and spend a few thousand for one that fits in between the meter and the meter pan. Otherwise, you have to use breakers with a whole house surge, that fits on a panel, and it is also not suggested to place it in a sub-panel, due to that defeats the purpose.


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## quantumspores (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks. The consideration of the subpanel is only to move "non-essential" items into the subpanel to free up the necessary two spaces. So far the Siemens option seems to be the best.


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## Auger01 (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess that tandem breakers wont fit in your panel?


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

Install a sub-panel, but while you're at it you will need to beef-up your ground system. It's no good installing a surge protector to shunt lightning strikes to ground, if your ground system is measured around 50 ohms, or more...(which most residential service grounding systems are), and note, installing a second ground rod only marginally lowers the ground system's resistance. To get your ground resistance down around 5 ohms, you will need to bore a three inch hole in the ground around 30ft. deep, install 3X10ft. 3/4 inch ground rods (the type that screw together), and back fill the hole with a good conductive cement slurry...then install the surge protector.
Remember, high-tech. "fixes" are worthless, without the grunt work behind them.
Good luck.
(PS. Check with utilities before drilling holes deeper than 10ft. The may be gas lines or high tension cables down there...or just...oil).


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

kontoose said:


> Install a sub-panel, but while you're at it you will need to beef-up your ground system. It's no good installing a surge protector to shunt lightning strikes to ground, if your ground system is measured around 50 ohms, or more...(which most residential service grounding systems are), and note, installing a second ground rod only marginally lowers the ground system's resistance. To get your ground resistance down around 5 ohms, you will need to bore a three inch hole in the ground around 30ft. deep, install 3X10ft. 3/4 inch ground rods (the type that screw together), and back fill the hole with a good conductive cement slurry...then install the surge protector.
> Remember, high-tech. "fixes" are worthless, without the grunt work behind them.
> Good luck.
> (PS. Check with utilities before drilling holes deeper than 10ft. The may be gas lines or high tension cables down there...or just...oil).



I hope this was a joke.


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

You haven't done the math... It looks like a joke to most amateurs, but you need at least algebra 2 and trig under your belt before you "get it...!"
Suggested study guide:
(1). voltage divider formula.
(2). Effective "ground well".
(3). Cosmopolitan mag. (In case (1) & (2) is too tough fir ya... At least you will be able to do your nails at the end...


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

kontoose said:


> You haven't done the math... It looks like a joke to most amateurs, but you need at least algebra 2 and trig under your belt before you "get it...!"
> Suggested study guide:
> (1). voltage divider formula.
> (2). Effective "ground well".
> (3). Cosmopolitan mag. (In case (1) & (2) is too tough fir ya... At least you will be able to do your nails at the end...




 Im just saying, do you seriously think this will change the operation of the surge protector?


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

No. The, "operation of the surge protector" is independent. The surge protector is nothing more than a fast acting switch, in series with an over-current protection device; (a breaker).
MOVs (metal oxide varistors), which constitute the solid state voltage triggered switch, (that operates in the pico second range, simply shunts high voltage, short duration spikes to ground -- such as lightening strikes, but...if there is a bad ground, (or even worse, no ground at all), then the surge protector is rendered redundant. 
Note: If the current path through the residence's wiring and equipment, and back to the transformer via the neutral conductor is measured (in ohms) at a certain value, and the path back to the transformer, via the ground system is an equal value...then, 50% of the spike will be experienced by the residence's wiring and equipment. It's basic Ohm's law...again...


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Do you have a 50A 240Vac breaker? Say, like at feed to your garge or the oven? If so, get an external surge protector. It mounts below your box...connects to the load side of the breaker. If you get an 'event' that is significant enough....it will trip the breaker....but in most cases, the surge is arrested and the breaker will not trip.

You can also get surger protectors that also have a load side so you can use it to feed something.....like your garage.


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## sixspeed (Apr 11, 2012)

quantumspores said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am looking for a whole house surge protector that does NOT require the use of extra breakers. Most of these devices want you to wire them in to two separate breakers, but alas, I have none. Is there anything on the market that will fit my needs?
> 
> ...


Take a look at Leviton 51120-1
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=51120-1&section=39955&minisite=10251


I quote from their installation sheet (DI-000-51120-00E), under Wiring Instructions, paragraph 5:
"Twenty-Amp (20A) circuit breakers are recommended, _and may share SPD device and branch circuit leads_."

Caveat: make sure your circuit breaker ALLOWS for such connection.
(I.e. Square D QO)


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

sixspeed said:


> Take a look at Leviton 51120-1
> http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=51120-1&section=39955&minisite=10251
> 
> 
> ...


Sixspeed...thanks for correcting me on that. That Leviton is the one I was thinking of....but some reason I was thinking it was intended to be used with 30 or 50A breakers. I must be thinking of the surge protectors that also let you use it as a CB.


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## westom (Aug 23, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> Im just saying, do you seriously think this will change the operation of the surge protector?


No surge protector does protection. Either a protector connects short to what does protection. Or a protector is useless.

What defines protection? How good is your earth ground? Protectors are dumb simple science. The art (and most all of your attention) must focus on what actually does the protection - single point earth ground.

For most, a few ten foot copper clad ground rods are more than sufficient. For others, a 30 foot ground rod may be necessary. For others, the 30 foot ground rod does nothing better.

Protection is defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That means most of your sentences discuss or ask about earth ground.

Protectors can be installed in the circuit breaker, attached to the breaker box, installed in the meter pan, or rented for a few dollars a month from the utility. Protectors are the dumb and simple stuff. Protection - earth ground - is the art. Are the most critical questions to ask.

How good is the protector? That is only defined by one critically important item. How good is your earth ground?

BTW, that is only the secondary protection layer. Also inspect your primary protection layer. What is the only item that defines each layer of protection? A picture demonstrates what in your primary protection system must be inspected - what defines protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html


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## sweaty (Jul 18, 2008)

I have used a WHSS that mounts on the side of the panel. The wires go through knock-outs. It works if there is room on the side of the panel.


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

Exactly...! Note though... If your house has the best ground system - i.e., the lowest Ohmic value to ground, then any lightening strike, no matter how far away...(within reason)...will "entice" the strike to use your grounding system to shunt the millions of joules of power to earth...(in the form of a nano, or pico-second duration spike), that will...melt through...micron-thick solid-state integrated-circuit chip barriers, faster than, and with more ease, than Obama, (on Halloween night), dressed as a nun, trying to loot the Vatican's sacred wine cellar, on the auspices that guzzling the grape...will create more jobs in the "treading" industry... 
Ooow! Wait 'til Michele gits here hands on the pontiff...!


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## surgeknowitall (Jul 12, 2012)

*surge options*



quantumspores said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am looking for a whole house surge protector that does NOT require the use of extra breakers. Most of these devices want you to wire them in to two separate breakers, but alas, I have none. Is there anything on the market that will fit my needs?
> 
> ...


Yes there is. You need to first look for a "Type 1" UL listed surge protective device. These products are UL listed for and NEC Art 285 installation requirements allow them to be installed line or load side of the OCP. A type 2 SPD may or may not have internal OCP and NEC does not allow them for line side installation. So a type 2 listed SPD that does not have internal OCP is relying on the breaker to provide it. Most manuf will still recommend you to install a type 1 listed product on a 2-pole breaker because it is the easiest means of disconnecting the surge protector if it needs to be serviced. I would recommend tandem breakers to solve your spacial issues, remember surge protection is not a "load" it only draws current during a surge event except for maybe 2 milliamps to illuminate an indication light. Otherwise hook your type 1 SPD up to the main lugs and you will be protected. Fair warning I am a technical manuf customer service rep (I am the tech support you call for surge protection install questions) and of course recommend my product APT part #S50A120V2P. Ultimately any Type 1 listed surge protector can be installed line side. Answers to surge protection FAQ's like this are available on my "aptsurge" website. Do not forget to protect low voltage (phone and coaxial) signals b/c connected equipment (tv's and computers) will have an unprotected pathway.


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## westom (Aug 23, 2009)

surgeknowitall said:


> Do not forget to protect low voltage (phone and coaxial) signals b/c connected equipment (tv's and computers) will have an unprotected pathway.


Not true anywhere in North America. Those lines have always been required to be surge protected by many codes.

What is the best protector on coaxial signal wire? The 'required by code' wire from that cable to earth ground. How good is that protection? Well, how good is the earth ground? How short is the connection? Useful protector answers constantly discuss the item that absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules ... harmlessly.

Code also demands every telephone wire be connected to earth at the NID (where their wires connect to yours). All homes must have this. And again. How good is the protection? Well, how responsible was the homeowner in maintaining that short connection to a better earth ground?

Why are cable TV and telephone appliances often damaged? Once inside the building, then a surge must find earth ground. Some of the best connections to earth are cable and telephone appliances. Because those wires already have well earthed protectors. The outgoing current path is often where cable TV and telephone appliances are damaged. Because a surge far down the street was connected to those appliances by a 
negligent homeowner. Due to a non-existent or improperly earthed 'whole house' protector on AC mains.

It can never be repeated enough. Either a surge is earthed harmlessly outside the building. Or that surge will hunt for earth ground destructively via appliances. Telephone and cable wires must have what is best protection. Protection is compromised if a homeowner does not earth a 'whole house' protector on AC mains. Destructive and outgoing path is often via a telephone or cable wire.

Every useful protector recommendation discusses the only item that makes any protector effective. Single point earth ground defines both a 'secondary' and a 'primary' protection layer. A useful recommendation will discuss existing and superior protection, required long before computers existed, on all telephone and coaxial utility wires.


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## surgeknowitall (Jul 12, 2012)

*surge protecting your equipment is your responsibility not the utilities*



> Not true anywhere in North America. Those lines have always been required to be surge protected by many codes.


I am going to recommend you read through the IEEE guide on how to protect your home. Focus on the low voltage protaction section of the quide. For any one with questions about grounding and surge they have a section on that topic and you'll learn about ground potential rise. 

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Then I'd recommend you read NIST's "Surge Happens". You can visit NEMAsurge after that and for good measure State Farms website has an excellent laymens explanation of the importance of surge and how to protect your home. Let me know if there are any other resources on surge that you'd like. I have dozens.


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## westom (Aug 23, 2009)

surgeknowitall said:


> I am going to recommend you read through the IEEE guide on how to protect your home.


 I'm going to recommend that you do this stuff before citing yourself as knowledgeable. Had you done this stuff, then you knew telephone and cable installation must already have superior protection. And you would not be citing a woefully incomplete source.


All phone lines already have a protector installed in the NID. Apparently I must show what you failed to inspect. Why is the NID grounded? Did you even ask? The Wisconsin PUC describes what you must know:



> Aside from being the device where the telephone service wire connects to the inside wire, the NID also provides electrical protection through the electrical grounding system on the customer's premises, so any work you do on the NID could have an affect on how these electrical systems are grounded.


 That protection is required in FCC, BellCore Standards, NFPA, and elsewhere. A layman's summary sheet would not discuss it.


A picture of the required telephone protector long before PCs existed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileemarc2.JPG
Anyone with experience knows of the 'carbons'. Today, all phone lines feature a superior semiconductor based protector inside the NID. A datasheet of that part that you knew does not exist:
http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/2378-35-HS(155HS)revC.pdf

Read, for example, Motorola's Standards and Guide for Communication Sites. Regulations that require telephone line protectors are summarized:


> The SPD shall be installed at the entrance point into any building and within close proximity to the electrical service entrance and the master ground bus bar. In lightning prone areas, a primary SPD shall also be installed on each end of an inter-building cable run to help ensure that high energy is not allowed to penetrate the building interior (NFPA 70-2005, Article 800.90(A)).


 They even provided code you were suppose to read before posting. NEC's requirement for that always existing telephone protector:


> shall consist of an arrester connected between each line conductor and ground


Article 820 of the NEC defines protection required for all coax (cable TV) service. No protector reqired. Best protection is a wire connection to earth.

Read what is required and exists for telephone and cable protection; such as FCC Part 68 or UL1459. Then say why (with numbers) that superior protection does not exist. If not yet obvious, I have quite a few decades of field and design experience. Please do not insult me by citing an obviously incomplete layman's summary sheet.


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## surgeknowitall (Jul 12, 2012)

I am not at all interested in a pissing contest over who knows more about the subject of low voltage. I am woefully lacking the penis that requires me to do so. You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault. If that were the case then why is it that every day I speak to consumers/homeowners, electricians and even engineers who have problems because this is not the case??? State code all day but the glaring reality is that there are violations to every code all over North America.

I think you are doing people a disservice by telling them hey don't worry the utility has got it covered, thumbs up you are protected. And will reiterate to any one seeking a whole home surge protection strategy that they protect all possible service entrances electrical, phone and coax with surge protectors and subsequent localized protection throughout their home.

Westom you and I are just going to stand on opposite sides of the fence on this one and let the people reading these posts make their own decision on who's advice they will follow.


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## westom (Aug 23, 2009)

surgeknowitall said:


> You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault.


 Understanding protection means understanding why most homes have no protection other than what is inside appliances. You did not read (or comprehend) what was posted.

Why are telephone and cable appliances so easily damaged? Due to superior protection on those wires, then that becomes a best (and destructive) path to earth. Superior protection on telephone and cable is compromised by no earthed protector on AC electric.

What provides protection? Earth ground. Who is responsible for that earthing? The homeowner. How many homeowners know that? A question for every homeowner here.

Protection means both meeting and exceeding code requirements. You are correct about contractors - even electricians. They typically have little grasp of what does protection. Some still install incorrectly. Best solution (that also costs less money) is to fix their defect.

Informed contractors install protect*ion* when the footings are poured. A protect*or* is only as effective as its earth ground. How to increase protect*ion*? Upgrade what does protection; what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground.

Some facilities have superior protection without a protect*or*. Protectors may not be required. But single point earth ground - the protect*ion* - is always required.

Protection means energy earthed; is not inside. A concept well understood and repeatedly proven for over 100 years. A protectors is only as effective as its earth ground.


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

*Good on you.*



surgeknowitall said:


> I am not at all interested in a pissing contest over who knows more about the subject of low voltage. I am woefully lacking the penis that requires me to do so. You seem to be under the impression the utilities and contractors wiring homes follow these guidelines to the letter without fault. If that were the case then why is it that every day I speak to consumers/homeowners, electricians and even engineers who have problems because this is not the case??? State code all day but the glaring reality is that there are violations to every code all over North America.
> 
> I think you are doing people a disservice by telling them hey don't worry the utility has got it covered, thumbs up you are protected. And will reiterate to any one seeking a whole home surge protection strategy that they protect all possible service entrances electrical, phone and coax with surge protectors and subsequent localized protection throughout their home.
> 
> Westom you and I are just going to stand on opposite sides of the fence on this one and let the people reading these posts make their own decision on who's advice they will follow.


Hurrah...! I second the motion! There's way too much [trade] snobbery around here.


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

*Read my earlier submission.*



westom said:


> Understanding protection means understanding why most homes have no protection other than what is inside appliances. You did not read (or comprehend) what was posted.
> 
> Why are telephone and cable appliances so easily damaged? Due to superior protection on those wires, then that becomes a best (and destructive) path to earth. Superior protection on telephone and cable is compromised by no earthed protector on AC electric.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Stickboy laughed at this earlier - Charlatan.:whistling2:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

kontoose said:


> Thank you! Stickboy laughed at this earlier - Charlatan.:whistling2:


I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here... it's the simple things that go way over minds that contain too much information. :whistling2:


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## westom (Aug 23, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here...


 Which is why Lowes and Home Depot sell these for homes. It's too complicated for a homeowner. Too expensive ($50). Too difficult to understand. Actually does protection even from direct lightning strikes. No homeowner wants that. The least technically informed among us said so. It must be true.:thumbup:


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

*Insufficient Humility.*



stickboy1375 said:


> I laughed, because were talking residential surge protection here... it's the simple things that go way over minds that contain too much information. :whistling2:


You _can't_ hope to be right _all_ of the time...! So, when in the wrong...simply admit it - like now.:thumbup:

(I wonder if Lows or Homedepot sell surge protectors for narcissism...)?:jester:


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## bud-- (Oct 24, 2011)

I also recommend the 2 surge guides in a post by surgeknowitall. 
He has a link to the IEEE surge guide: 
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

NIST's "Surge Happens" is at:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges happen!.pdf



westom said:


> Not true anywhere in North America. Those lines have always been required to be surge protected by many codes.


The IEEE surge guide, starting page 30, shows a cable entry ground block with a ground wire to the building power earthing system that is too long. With a surge to cable, the voltage from cable to power wiring is 10,000V. (The section is ground potential rise - as in surgeknowitall's post.) Many houses have phone or cable entry points too far from the power service, and the earthing system.



westom said:


> What is the best protector on coaxial signal wire? The 'required by code' wire from that cable to earth ground.


 The NEC just requires a ground block at the coax entry that allows the coax shield to be earthed.

The IEEE guide says “there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV.” And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."



westom said:


> How good is that protection? Well, how good is the earth ground?


Suppose you have someone's near miraculous 5 ohms resistance to earth, and the system earths a 2,000A surge. The building 'ground' system will be 10,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. If the earthing electrode was a ground rod, in general 70% of the voltage drop away from the rod is in the first 3 feet. The earth more than 3 feet from the rod will be at least 7,000V from the building ground. One place that can show up (as noted in the IEEE surge guide) is at a pad mounted A/C compressor/condenser that is pad mounted on earth distant from the grounding electrode. The compressor (at earth potential at the pad) will be far from the power wiring (at earth potential at the power earthing system). The impedance of the power ground wire to the compressor won't help much. (A surge is a very short event which means it has relatively high frequency current components, which means the inductance of the wire is much more important than the resistance.)

The author of the NIST surge guide has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."

Worry about the length of the ground wire from cable and phone entry protectors to the common connection point on the power earthing system. The NIST surge guide suggests that the major cause of equipment damage is high voltage between power and phone/cable/... wires. Much of the protection is actually that all the wiring (power/phone/cable/...) rises together.


The author of the NIST surge guide also looked at surges on power service wires. He found the maximum surge on a residential power service that has any reasonable probability of occurring is 10,000A per wire. That is based on a 100,000A lightning strike to a utility pole adjacent to a house. Service panel protectors with higher ratings just give long life. Recommendations for ratings are in the IEEE surge guide on page 18.

Service panel protectors are very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike. They may or may not protect equipment connected to both power and phone/cable/... wires.



westom said:


> It can never be repeated enough. Either a surge is earthed harmlessly outside the building. Or that surge will hunt for earth ground destructively via appliances.


Outside the question that was asked, but both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective. If using them all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External connections, like coax also must go through the protector.


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## kontoose (Jul 7, 2012)

bud-- said:


> I also recommend the 2 surge guides in a post by surgeknowitall.
> He has a link to the IEEE surge guide:
> http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
> 
> ...


Let's come back down to earth here...:laughing: This all started when I said that no matter what fancy surge protector one installs...it is virtually useless without an adequate ground system. (Some readers laughed, but now their not...) such is life:whistling2::jester:


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