# Toilet flange "too tall"



## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

Any ideas on dealing with a "too tall" flange will be appreciated. 

In the first picture, the base of the new toilet had to be shimmed 3/4" off the floor. This was caused by a toilet flange that worked fine for the old toilet but is 3/4" too "tall' for new toilet. 

We are going to add a new layer of tile to this bathroom floor. However, it will still leave maybe 1/4" to 1/2" gap between the bottom of the toilet and the new tile.

The flange in the second picture is from a different bathroom, but has the same design. This one was at least 1/2" shorter. We still had to shim the toilet up off the floor in this bathroom slightly to accept an identical new toilet. 

No need to say I did these toilets wrong. I know it. 

:whistling2:

Just need guidance on how to fix it.



Thanks.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

John_W said:


> Any ideas on dealing with a "too tall" flange will be appreciated.
> 
> In the first picture, the base of the new toilet had to be shimmed 3/4" off the floor. This was caused by a toilet flange that worked fine for the old toilet but is 3/4" too "tall' for new toilet.
> 
> ...


 did you try a dry fit...set new toilet over flange without wax ring to see if it fits....because in 2nd picture looks like toilet should fit...you do know you have to smash out wax ring ....sorry but i had to ask...ben:yes:


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

ben's plumbing said:


> did you try a dry fit...set new toilet over flange without wax ring to see if it fits....because in 2nd picture looks like toilet should fit...you do know you have to smash out wax ring ....sorry but i had to ask...ben:yes:


With the flange in the picture, I didn't expect a problem - so I just put on the wax ring and lowered the bowl. Surprise! The bowl didn't quite reach the floor. Didn't matter how hard I tried. The bowl rested on the flange and it just rocked back and forth from that perch.

I had to take it apart, clean up the mess and start over - using some shims between the bowl and the floor to keep the bowl from resting on the flange.

In the bathroom you see pictured, as soon as I got the old toilet off I knew I was in trouble. The flange there is at least 1/2" higher than in the first bathroom.

The house was built in the early 60s. The old toilets fit fine. So, I'm guessing that newer toilets and newer houses aren't built like they were in the 60s. In particular, they probably don't use those industrial strength flanges anymore. And they probably get the flanges to fit tight to the floor.



What can I do about the toilet in the picture? The pipe and the flange are probably cast iron. I don't want to crack the pipe because then I'm probably looking at replacing everything down below.


Thanks


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

John_W said:


> With the flange in the picture, I didn't expect a problem - so I just put on the wax ring and lowered the bowl. Surprise! The bowl didn't quite reach the floor. Didn't matter how hard I tried. The bowl rested on the flange and it just rocked back and forth from that perch.
> 
> I had to take it apart, clean up the mess and start over - using some shims between the bowl and the floor to keep the bowl from resting on the flange.
> 
> ...


I should bookmark this thread. That way I can point people who come here and ask the toilet flange question to this thread, and they will see why I say FLUSH with the finished floor. I can't believe the people making the other argument have never had this problem. I run into it almost weekly.


Anyway : The only real solutions you have are to :

A : Shim the toilet up

B : Find a toilet with a deeper base

C : Lower the flange.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

John_W said:


> With the flange in the picture, I didn't expect a problem - so I just put on the wax ring and lowered the bowl. Surprise! The bowl didn't quite reach the floor. Didn't matter how hard I tried. The bowl rested on the flange and it just rocked back and forth from that perch.
> ... snip ...
> What can I do about the toilet in the picture? The pipe and the flange are probably cast iron. I don't want to crack the pipe because then I'm probably looking at replacing everything down below.


Here's what I did to shim up a toilet and it worked long term just fine. The idea is to use a piece of plywood to raise the toilet.

... 1. Determine how high the toilet has to be shimmed up.
... 2. Set the toilet on a piece of *marine grade* plywood, with the thickness to match the amount of shimming necessary.
... 3. Draw the outline of the toilet on the plywood. Be careful to draw the outline exactly as it will determine how the finished installation will look.
... 4. Cut out the plywood slightly overside and then file/sand down to the outline. Do a good job here as this will be the part you can see.
... 5. Draw an outline of where the drain hole is, allowing ample room for a wax ring to squish out, and cut that out.
... 6. Drill holes for the toilet bolts. Be sure you can install the bolts when setting the toilet later.
... 7. Prime and paint the plywood to match the color of the toilet, paying special attention to the outside edges that will be visible. Let paint dry completely.
... 8. Dry fit the toilet with the plywood spacer and mark the outline on the floor using painter's tape at strategic places to form the outline.
... 9. Put a bead of silicone on the underside of the plywood "near the outside edges" and around the hole for the drain and set it in place on the floor, to prevent the plywood from moving. (Near the outside edges and around the hole for the drain will make it easier to remove the plywood later if necessary.)
... 10. Set the toilet on the plywood and let the silicone dry.
... 11. Now set the toilet as you normally would using a wax ring.
... 12. Remove the painter's tape.
... 13. If you like, you can run a bead of vinyl mastic between the plywood and the toilet/floor to hide any gaps.

When cutting the plywood, you can cut a slot in the back to allow any drain leakage to flow out the back side. Be sure to use marine grade plywood that won't fall apart if it gets wet.

Hope this works as well for you as it did for me,
HRG


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## oldhouseguy (Sep 7, 2011)

Maybe carve out some wooden lions feet for every corner of the toilet and make it seem like you meant to do that.

Sorry... I had to say it.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

oldhouseguy said:


> Maybe carve out some wooden lions feet for every corner of the toilet and make it seem like you meant to do that.
> 
> Sorry... I had to say it.


 oh yea:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

oldhouseguy said:


> Maybe carve out some wooden lions feet for every corner of the toilet and make it seem like you meant to do that.
> 
> Sorry... I had to say it.


Lion's feet. You guys are going to get me in trouble with my wife!

:no:


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

oldhouseguy said:


> Maybe carve out some wooden lions feet for every corner of the toilet and make it seem like you meant to do that.
> Sorry... I had to say it.


I like it!!! Best looking toilet in town! :thumbup: :laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

On the 2nd picture id try heating up the lead between the flange and pipe and digging it out.
Then Id lay a chunk of wood on 1 side of flange and start tapping with a hammer working it around the flange as I went till it was flush with floor.
Then Id take my handy ol 4" grinder with a cut off wheel and cut pipe flush with flange.
Then id drive some oakum down in there,melt some lead and pour it in all the way around.
Then Id take my caulking iron and proceed to seat that lead in there really good.
Oh wait,I forgot everybody uses plastic these days!
And lead is considered a worse hazard than that mercury in those cfl bulbs that are going to save the world! :whistling2::laughing:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Alan said:


> and they will see why I say FLUSH with the finished floor. I can't believe the people making the other argument have never had this problem.



Alan when you say flush with the finished floor do you mean the bottom of the flange should have been in full contact with the finished floor like diagram 1 below or the top of the flange should be on same plane as finished floor like diagram 2 below??


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

someone mentioned marine grade plywood. While that would work, I would opt for a plastic material. MSC, McMaster Carr. US Plastics sell UHMW material in varying thicknesses. This is food grade material so it will not absorb odors and is easily machinable. Cost is not too bad and you may even be able to find it localy at a plastics supply house. Cut it to fit the bottom of the bowl and around the flange. rout the edges to a smooth finish and you are good to go


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

hammerlane said:


> Alan when you say flush with the finished floor do you mean the bottom of the flange should have been in full contact with the finished floor like diagram 1 below or the top of the flange should be on same plane as finished floor like diagram 2 below??


#2


Pun intended.

:thumbup:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes that would be the ideal set up in perfect world. :thumbsup:


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

plummen said:


> On the 2nd picture id try heating up the lead between the flange and pipe and digging it out.
> Then Id lay a chunk of wood on 1 side of flange and start tapping with a hammer working it around the flange as I went till it was flush with floor.
> Then Id take my handy ol 4" grinder with a cut off wheel and cut pipe flush with flange.
> Then id drive some oakum down in there,melt some lead and pour it in all the way around.
> ...


Thanks for that. It made me (almost) nostalgic for the old days when men were men and plastic hadn't been invented. That's the kind of effort I was afraid might be needed - and way beyond my skills, tools, etc. I bet you feel like you made a difference after a job done that way!

:thumbup:

I think, on the toilet in the picture, a sheet of white plastic as a shim will be more my speed - cut to fit in all the right places. Plastic something like what danpik suggested, if I can find it locally.

:thumbsup:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

John_W said:


> Thanks for that. It made me (almost) nostalgic for the old days when men were men and plastic hadn't been invented. That's the kind of effort I was afraid might be needed - and way beyond my skills, tools, etc. I bet you feel like you made a difference after a job done that way!
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> ...


I think you're selling yourself short.
Take drill bit to the lead joint- drill out enough lead to free up the flange and remove it. Buy a new flange similar to the style hammerlane posted. Grind or snap off the excess old pipe and push the new flange on- secure it to the floor. It's not that tough and you won't be trying to blend in a piece of plastic or plywood that you'll know is there every time nature calls


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

plummen said:


> Yes that would be the ideal set up in perfect world. :thumbsup:


 
I disagree. I did mine with the bottom edge of the flange on top of the finished tile floor. No problems. No rocking toilet. No leaks.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

hammerlane said:


> I disagree. I did mine with the bottom edge of the flange on top of the finished tile floor. No problems. No rocking toilet. No leaks.


Look closely. You have a different kind of flange.


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

TheEplumber said:


> I think you're selling yourself short.
> Take drill bit to the lead joint- drill out enough lead to free up the flange and remove it. Buy a new flange similar to the style hammerlane posted. Grind or snap off the excess old pipe and push the new flange on- secure it to the floor. It's not that tough and you won't be trying to blend in a piece of plastic or plywood that you'll know is there every time nature calls


I agree that fixing the pipe/flange will give the best result. Shimming is not as attractive - finished-product-wise.

I see three options, in my case, for doing the work via the flange and pipe:

1) I can imagine drilling out the lead, pulling it and the oakum out and getting the old flange up and off - by myself. 

Grinding or cutting off an inch from the top of the cast iron pipe is a different matter. I've seen videos and that looks like a job for a pro. 

Then, just put in a new flange similar to the style hammerlane posted.

2) How about just leaving the pipe as is, lowering the old flange to the floor and putting new oakum and lead in? Again, letting a pro do this part.

3) Same as 2 but I use a plastic flange with rubber seals that can be placed around the outside of the old pipe - instead of going down the inside.

2 and 3 would leave the pipe itself sticking up an inch or so too high, but the rest of the stuff would be resting on the floor.


1 works for sure. Would 2 or 3 work? (I think I hear no and no for 2 and 3. Why?)

:huh:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Alan said:


> Look closely. You have a different kind of flange.


A different kind of flange as compared to what. My point was that the bottom edge of my flange ended up being on the finished tile floor. Like below.

I guess to each his own.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

hammerlane said:


> My point was that the bottom edge of my flange ended up being on the finished tile floor.


Some flanges are thicker than others.


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## timberframe (Apr 29, 2012)

*flange types*

So, these different types and thicknesses of flange...do they have specific names so that I can find the one I need. I am installing a toilet where the concrete *is* the finish floor. The flange I bought has extra plastic (reinforcement, I assume) so I can't even make it sit flush like picture #1 without removing concrete. (The concrete is directly against the temporary, capped pipe; it seems this is where something *should* have been done different; live and learn.)
An attempted sketch of the flange I have is below. Do they exist without this reinforcement or do I have to start grinding?
_________________________________________________________
|_________________.................................. _________________|
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## timberframe (Apr 29, 2012)

*better picture*

just realized I could actually attach an image rather than link to one...


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

timberframe said:


> just realized I could actually attach an image rather than link to one...


Take a look at http://www.siouxchief.com/ They have a lot of cool stuff


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