# 15 or 20amp for basement finishing



## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Hi All,

I'm to the point where I can start to run wire for my outlets. I've been doing some reading and what I see is that if you want to spend the extra money, install all 20 amp recepts on a 20 amp breaker. For 98% of the time, this will be over kill, I just don't want to run into an issue later if I want to put in a electric fireplace, etc.

Do you guys recommend spending a few extra bucks and do the whole basement in 20amp?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I doubt that you will find many items that need a 20 amp receptacle.

I would definitely install a 20 amp circuit.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm to the point where I can start to run wire for my outlets. I've been doing some reading and what I see is that if you want to spend the extra money, install all 20 amp recepts on a 20 amp breaker. For 98% of the time, this will be over kill, I just don't want to run into an issue later if I want to put in a electric fireplace, etc.
> 
> Do you guys recommend spending a few extra bucks and do the whole basement in 20amp?


I wouldn't, but this debate is going to be a long one...  Just do what you want/feel is adequate for you. *Personally, you are much better off just running two 15 amp circuits than one 20 amp circuit.... *


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Most electric fireplaces I have seen have required their own circuit, especially if they have a heater. I would much rather have 2 15A circuits than 1 20 A circuit.


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## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

Most folks will not use 20 amp outlets, but my recommendation is to always use a 20 amp circuit (#12 wire) if you can swing it. Then use 15 amp receptacles (as they're cheaper) and receptacles are easy to switch out. When you run into a situation requiring a 20 amp receptacle, just switch out the receptacle in question. But if you're considering adding an electric fireplace I would wire a dedicated circuit for that (if you know where it might go.)


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

diystephen said:


> Most folks will not use 20 amp outlets, but my recommendation is to always use a 20 amp circuit (#12 wire) if you can swing it. Then use 15 amp receptacles (as they're cheaper) and receptacles are easy to switch out. When you run into a situation requiring a 20 amp receptacle, just switch out the receptacle in question.


What good is swapping out the receptacle when the circuit is most likely going to be overloaded at that point?


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks guys!!

I like the running 12-2 and using 15a recepts until I actually need a 20a idea... However, if running 2 separate 15a amps is the absolute best way, I may just do that.

Is one preferred over the other?


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## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> What good is swapping out the receptacle when the circuit is most likely going to be overloaded at that point?


If that likelihood exists then the OP can do as you suggested and run multiple circuits at the start (especially a dedicated receptacle where an electric fireplace might be.)


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> Thanks guys!!
> 
> I like the running 12-2 and using 15a recepts until I actually need a 20a idea... However, if running 2 separate 15a amps is the absolute best way, I may just do that.
> 
> Is one preferred over the other?


You will never need a 20 amp receptacle, I've been in the trade a long time, and have only seen a handful of 20 amp appliances, and at that point, they all required a dedicated circuit.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Alrighty then...

So I'll just use 2 different circuits @ 15amps. Thanks for responding so quickly!


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## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> Thanks guys!!
> 
> I like the running 12-2 and using 15a recepts until I actually need a 20a idea... However, if running 2 separate 15a amps is the absolute best way, I may just do that.
> 
> Is one preferred over the other?


Can you swing 2 20A circuits? One approach is to "leapfrog" outlets; where every other outlet is on the same circuit. That coupled with a dedicated circuit for a fireplace would help prevent future issues.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Here we go.... 

I'm not worried about the cost at this point. I want the best setup possible since everything is open. I want to do it right and have a tendency to over do things anyway. Eventually, I am going to keep this property as an investment house within the next 5 years or so, if that makes a difference.

Stickboy, you're up now!! yay or nah to this?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

What is the space going to used for?


Do you know where the fireplace will sit now, or have to wait until the space is finished?

As always local code will apply.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

It will just be used as another family room type area. TV's, audio receiver, lamps, laptop, ipads, etc.

I don't know where the fireplace will be or if I will even put one in. It was just a possibility and wanted to cover all my bases.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

2 15 A circuits
Tamper Resistant Receptacles
AFCI breakers
Smoke/CO Detector

As for the electric fireplace, its either going to be just fine on a 15 A circuit, or its going to have a heating element and require its own circuit. If you know where the fireplace is going to sit, run a dedicated 20A circuit to that spot. If you don't know where it is going to sit, run it when you get it.


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## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

k_buz said:


> 2 15 A circuits
> Tamper Resistant Receptacles
> AFCI breakers
> Smoke/CO Detector
> ...



K_Buz: I agree...


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## JuzRick (Nov 20, 2012)

Depending on the area he chooses to run the circuit for the fireplace, he needs to consider any possible tight spots, as in corners.. or areas that could cause complications when running that circuit when he's ready to proceed forward when you begins that phase.. as we're talking about all walls possibly being closed.


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## dcapone (Nov 28, 2011)

Ever since tripping a 15A circuit breaker while using a vacuum cleaner on a circuit that already had some load on it, I will personally always use 20 amp circuits for receptacles. I think most vacuums, even modern day ones, draw 12 to 13 amps. This does not leave much room for other existing loads to be on the circuit before tripping a breaker. While breakers operate on time-current curves and as such will tolerate an overcurrent situation for a short period of time (depending on how much overload, etc), I look at the fact if you have a plasma TV (2 amps), a AV receiver of some type (1-2 amps), a dvr (~.3 amps), and maybe a lamp, or the AC adapter of a laptop computer adding an additional amp of power to the load and then connect someone decides to vacuum, you are going to be overloading a 15 amp circuit.

That is just my personal opinion...most people probably do not leave their TV on or have their computer open when vacuuming maybe .


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

And that is exactly what I was getting at before... I want to be able to have those things going and not trip a breaker, especially because this will eventually be a rental and I don't know how the hell this space will be used... There is a $25 increase between 14-2 and 12-2 and about $30 increase in 15a vs 20a recepts...

But I have experienced electricians on here saying to just use 2 15a circuits, someone else saying 2 20a circuits, etc


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## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> Here we go....
> 
> I'm not worried about the cost at this point. I want the best setup possible since everything is open. I want to do it right and have a tendency to over do things anyway. Eventually, I am going to keep this property as an investment house within the next 5 years or so, if that makes a difference.


Since everything is open now and it sounds like you don't want to have to do this again...

My personal opinion would be to run 2 20A circuits with 15 amp tamper proof receptacles.

Put them on afci breakers.

It's cheap insurance for future unknown usage. Might be overkill for now but...

How many square feet are we talking and will it be just one big room, or several? Will there be a bathroom?


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

This is a prelim sketch I made up quickly. This is not to scale so the recepts are not as close as they appear 

Feel free to give me feed back!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

20 amp receptacles are not required with a 20 amp circuit.

I run 20 amp circuits because when I started my area did not allow 14 gauge wire to be used, so it became a habit.


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## dcapone (Nov 28, 2011)

A couple things and much more knowledgeable people can correct me if I am wrong (or you can depending how bad the scale is)...

1. You will most likely need a receptacle to the "left" of the bathroom door in the open area which I do not think would count as a hallway but rather part of the larger recreational room. It appears to be longer than 2 ft and as such, the wall space would require an outlet to be within 6 ft at all points.

2. Same for wall on left at bottom of stairs. Outlet for 1 could be positioned to satisfy the need of 6' to a receptacle for both sections of wall, but this depends on the actual sizes since the diagram is not to scale.

3. Same for the long wall of the utility closet. You may be able to shift the location of the outlet you have on the "stub" wall to satisfy the 6' rule here, again depending on actual size / scale.

4. As a general comment, depending on how your other bathrooms are already wired, it may be easier to wire the bathroom receptacles onto the same GFCI circuit as one of the other bathrooms and tie the bathroom lights onto the same circuit as the rest of the lighting. This can be done if one of the other bathroom circuits is ONLY serving receptacles in the bathroom and not any additional loads within the bathroom.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Right now, I'm working on the room with the 1 and 5 circuit. None of the other areas are even framed yet. That was all hypothetical. I'll def keep all that stuff in mind though. Thanks for such a detailed response!!


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## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

That looks fine to me. I agree with what dcapone said.


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## hidden1 (Feb 3, 2008)

Since it will be investment property down the road and others may be there later id stick w 12/2 .20 amp wire on both lines(1 seprate to fireplace) and 15 on outlets. many dont realize the overload till the multiple electronics/vac ,etc is poping the breaker(especially renters on a 15 amp)..


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## hidden1 (Feb 3, 2008)

Since it will be investment property down the road and others may be there later id stick w 12/2 .20 amp wire on both lines w afci(1 seprate to fireplace) and 15 on outlets. many dont realize the overload till the multiple electronics/vac ,etc is tripping the breaker(especially renters on a 15 amp)..


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## diystephen (Nov 23, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> And that is exactly what I was getting at before... I want to be able to have those things going and not trip a breaker, especially because this will eventually be a rental and I don't know how the hell this space will be used... There is a $25 increase between 14-2 and 12-2 and about $30 increase in 15a vs 20a recepts...
> 
> But I have experienced electricians on here saying to just use 2 15a circuits, someone else saying 2 20a circuits, etc


Since I'm the "someone else" I'll pile on  You can't go wrong with 20 amp circuits. The point of 15 or 20A circuits will always be argued (as you've seen) but if the small price increase isn't a dealbreaker, then there's really no debate; a 20A circuit is cheap insurance (as they say.) In your case I'd run 2 20A for the living space; of course the bathroom needs it's own circuit.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Debate over... 2 20amp circuits!

Thanks everyone!!!


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## redman88 (Oct 5, 2012)

run the 12/2 and just use 15amp breaker untill you need the 15amp


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

The other thing I did not see in the plan is the luminaires.

How many are you plan to use and what type they are ??

I will give you a quick head up if you going to use the recessed cans luminaires size the circuit by the maxuim wattage it listed in the recessed cans the reason why I say that due some case you may put in 75 watt light bulb for a example but in fact you may use the CFL ( compact flourscent lamp ) which it will be 18 or 23 watts or use lower wattage indentscent bulbs.

And are you going to use them with dimmer as well ? if so please pay attetion to the wattage rating on the dimmer. 

Most common dimmer wattage useally 600 watts rated but there are higher dimmer wattage rated like 1000 watts or 1500 watts.

But just be aware if you going to run multigang box with dimmer the derating may kick in depending on how many fins it have to be removed or numbers of gang in the box ( the dimmer installment instruction will mention that clear.)

Expect the dimmer to be warm when they are using ( my favour soluation is use the metal switch plate cover they act like big heat sink to keep it cooler )

Merci,
Marc


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm using (6) 5in IC rated recessed lights on a 600w dimmer switch. I plan on using dimmable CFL bulbs (75w equiv), so my wattage shouldn't even be close, correct?


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## Dave632 (Sep 18, 2012)

Trucon01 said:


> I'm using (6) 5in IC rated recessed lights on a 600w dimmer switch. I plan on using dimmable CFL bulbs (75w equiv), so my wattage shouldn't even be close, correct?


I think you have to size the circuit based on what you *could* use, not what you plan to use. If the recessed light fixtures are rated for 150W each, 6x150 = 900W, then you're over the rating of your 600W dimmer, even though you intend to only have ~150W of actual load using the CFLs..


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

The housings are rated for 75w each. The CFL bulbs are 14 watts each but a 75 watt equiv. With CFL, you use the actual wattage of the bulb, not the equiv, correct?

14w x 6 = 84 watts
75w x 6 = 450 watts

Either way, I'm still under the 600w max on the dimmer.

This brings up a good question though...

I'll have a 15a circuit just for the main 6 lights in the room on a 600w dimmer. The dimmer will be in a 2 gang box with another 600w dimmer that will control 2 smaller recessed lights for a book shelf, all on the same 15a circuit. Is this ok?

Since the dimmers will be in the same box, sharing the same 15a circuit, will the wattage between them also be shared?


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## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

redman88 said:


> run the 12/2 and just use 15amp breaker untill you need the 15amp


The wire size determines the breaker size.

14-2 you must use a 15 amp breaker

12-2 you have to use a 20 amp breaker

Think about it from a practical standpoint. Lights on, tv on, now out comes the vacuum cleaner and the breaker trips.

Makes no sense to run 20 amp wire and install a 15 amp circuit breaker, not to mention it is also against the NEC code.

Nope, I was wrong, just double checked, it is ok to put a 15 amp breaker on 12 wire. oops!
:blush:


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Correct. I plan on doing 12-2 wire, 20a breaker with 20amp recepts. If I'm using the wire, Im not cheaping out on the recepts 

He may have meant to use 15a recepts, not breaker...


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Trucon01 said:


> The housings are rated for 75w each. The CFL bulbs are 14 watts each but a 75 watt equiv. With CFL, you use the actual wattage of the bulb, not the equiv, correct?
> 
> 14w x 6 = 84 watts
> 75w x 6 = 450 watts
> ...


The lighing load is computed at the max the fixture uses.
1 15 amp circuit is fine.
When dimmers are mounted in the same box, they have to be derated.
Most 600 watt dimmers will be derated to 500 watts or less when mounted in the same box.


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