# SCARY oven fire! Why did it burn?



## Beth777

Hi. Just the other day, the kitchen was chilly. I turned my GE electric oven on "warm" and opened the oven door a little. The oven was very clean, no food or crumbs inside. Walking by, I noticed the bottom heating coil had a spot where it was glowing red...which does not normally happen. While I looked down at the odd sight, the glowing red spot suddenly erupted into a little flame, about 1 1/2" tall.

Quickly turned the oven to "off" and shut the oven door. Little flame continued to burn. I opened the oven door and dumped a BIG pile of dry flour on top of the little flame! That should have really smothered the little flame.... Shut the door again.

That didn't help.

Little flame continued, and grew..., maybe about 6" or tall by then, spreading along the coil, a developing ring of fire. It burned past where I had dumped the pile of flour! It seemed to be unstoppable, invinceable! Scary! Staying calm, trying to figure this out super-fast...Figuring that the flame was being fueled by electricity (since there didn't seem to be anything else that could possibly be fueling it), I pulled the oven out from the wall and unplugged it. Instantly the flame went out, as soon as it was unplugged. That's when I realized that my knees were weak and my heart was going to pound right out of my chest...considering what might have been...

The scary part of this, for me, is that we were to leave the house in about 5 minutes for an appointment.....and would have been away for hours. If I had not noticed that little glow...if I had just turned the oven off and left quickly...maybe we would have come home later to a big bonfire.

The history behind this oven: it was given to us by friends who were remodeling. They said the bottom coil had once caught fire. The husband had been there to put out the fire, and had replaced the coil, and it was fine now with the new coil. That was about a year ago. So, after about a year, the replaced oven coil catches fire...there's an erie pattern developing here!

Why did it catch fire? Are electric oven coils flammable? Is this an unsafe oven which needs to be dismantled and put into landfill, or is this a fixable problem? 

Ideas and suggestions?

Our homeowners insurance would cover replacement of the oven, but that would kick in a 3-year surcharge penalty for filing a claim. We'd have to pay the deductible. Wouldn't likely be worth filing. 

What brand of oven would you recommend or not recommend for replacement choice?


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## fireguy

You did good & bad with your fire incident.

GOOD you closed the door and shut off the power

BAD you opened the door, allowing fresh oxygen to the fire scene
BAD you dumped flour on the fire, flour as you noticed, burns. flour dust can also explode. In an oven, probably not a real concern.

GOOD you turned off the breaker.

BAD, VERY BAD! You apparntly did not call the Fire department. Always call the FD, they really like to drive the truck to the scene. The only time the truck company is allowed out of the station is for emergency calls. 

GOOD,you are thinking of replacing the stove or having it fixed.

Next time you have a cooking fire, 
1. Close the door to the fire or put a lid on the pan
2. Call the FD
3. If it is safe and you are comfortable with using a fire extinguihser, use it. Never allow your self to be in a posiciton where the fire is between you and the exit. You can also use baking soda or salt on a cooking fire. Never dump water on a cooking fire. it can cause the fire to increase in size.
4. Get out and stay out! Take a phone with you and stay out until the FD arrives.


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## Beth777

Thanks, fireguy. Great instructions to review!

This coil fire was surprising, in a clean, completely empty oven. I didn't know clean oven coils could catch fire?

Why did it not stop when I turned the oven off? Why did it keep spreading until it was unplugged from the wall?

I didn't flip the breaker, as box is all the way downstairs, quicker to just unplug the stove. One less "GOOD" for me.

My 12-year-old was at home with me...he was at the door ready to run out, phone in hand, asking if he should call 911 now. Watching his mother react. *sigh* The whole event was super-fast, probably all done before he would have had time to give the 911 operator our address, In less than a minute, I turned off the oven, threw flour, and unplugged while he was getting the phone in hand and punching in the 911 numbers. He was totally prepared to make that call if the unplugging didn't stop it. Maybe he gets a "GOOD"?

Another odd thing is that the flour did not burn. The flame just kind of side-stepped the flour and continued on down the bare coil, seemingly without any fuel except electricity.


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## hychesee

I have worked in the electrical field for over 30 years have never head of a heating element that would burn.
Though they have amended the fire triangle to include chemical reaction - I still believe in the original 3: heat, fuel, and oxygen.

I think you just over reacted to a grease spot burning on the electric element and adding the flour was just more fuel to burn, by the time you unplugged it, it had burned itself out. Electricity doesn't make fire all it can do is add heat to the process, the hidden pepperoni from the pizza you baked the night before was the fuel.

Fireguy is right on with his advice, leaving the door closed would of been the best thing to do until it burned out. I keep two $15 type abc fire extinguishers in my house, one by the kitchen exit and the other by the house exit. Extinguishes are not recommended for grease fires because it can blow the burning grease around, just cover with a lid or another big pan/pot.


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## Beth777

Hi. I am extremely ill-informed in the field of electricity, which is why I posted here where the informed people hang out! I appreciate the replies. Just trying to figure out what happened. 

I didn't think heating elements should burn. So, you are saying that there had to have been something flammable spilled on the element? It could not have been caused by any electrical short or malfunction?

Coincidence is that this oven's previous owner said the bottom heating element caught fire a little over a year ago. He fixed the oven by replacing the burned-up element with a brand new one. Seems like a strange coincidence for the same thing to happen again.

The newer, replaced heating element always heated disproportionately hotter than the top element, so I could not bake anything unless it was way up on the top rack of the oven, or it would burn on the bottom. The tops of my casseroles would be underdone, and the bottoms would be overdone. I put a baking stoneware sheet under anything I baked, to shield it from the bottom heat. I just figured the newer element worked great and the older element was slowing down.

That oven didn't get a lot of use here. We don't use pepperoni at all...nothing greasy...and I have not baked anything in the oven that dripped over the edge of the pan or could possibly have dripped or splattered grease. So, the burning spilled food idea seemed so unlikely.

When I turned off the oven and closed the oven door, before adding flour, the flames continued to advance along that element, getting higher and covering a wider area like a ring of fire. Didn't slow down at all. Did I just not wait long enough? 

It did go from actively burning to instantly stopping as soon as it was unplugged. If it had gradually slowed down after being unplugged, looking like it was burning itself out, I would not have suspected a malfunction fueled by electricity.

The flour didn't ever catch fire, although it seems now that it should have. But it did not.

Another question: If electricity was not fueling the fire, and if it were just an unlikely but invisible layer of grease burning on the outside of the heating element, then why did I need to unplug the oven or trip the breaker? Would that even be relevant?

Good placement and knowlege of how to use the extinguishers is great advice for potential emergencies.-


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## hychesee

The pepperoni comment was said tongue and cheek. They could of put the wrong wattage element in when it was replaced but the oven control would of still kept it at the right temperature, though a higher wattage element would give a hot spot close by before the temp control could turn it off.

Stove elements like the ones in water heaters and dishwashers are pretty much all the same - the electrical current is carried by a tungsten wire embedded in ceramic then encased in a steel, really nothing to burn.

My guess is by way of your explanation is that the oven control has malfunctioned and continued to heat after being turned off, it could have shorted because of an over sized element, but what was actually burning is still perplexing. A manufacturing impurity is one thing that comes to mind.

Having a fire extinguisher in the cabinet above the stove is a bad placement, you would be surprised how many people keep them there and then can't get to it because of the fire. I like the abc dry type because they coat the fuel with a dust that cuts off the supply of oxygen and is easier to cleanup.

Many years ago I put a TV dinner in the microwave and because I broke the glass platter in the bottom I used the box it came in to hold it off the bottom, I accidentally punched in 50 minuets instead of 5 minutes and got side tracked, it started a fire and stunk the place up for weeks.


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## fireguy

Let's give that boy a big "AttaBoy" for knowing what to do and not loosing his cool.

I was wondering about the element and control,but I am not an electrician. Mr. Hychesee's explanation sounds feasable. Get an appliance repairman in to look at the stove.

His comments about not putting an extinguisher above the stove is a good idea. Each home should have at least one extinguisher. The extinguisher should be rated at 2A10BC at a minimum. Don't buy an extinguisher with a plastic valve assembly, they are of low quality. my company will not recharge those things. Put it near an exit and have it inspected by an professional agency. Do not take it to the local FD, they usually know nothing about extinguishers. Before any firefighters jump on me, my fire service includes volunteer, paid on call, industrial brigade, paid full time and a couple of years wearing a white hat. Add 30 years running my own fire equipment business. 

We got a call of oven on fire. We roll up and go in to see what the problem is. The housewife opened the oven door and sure enough, there was a fire inside. There was also every pan she owned, each of which had grease in it. I closed the door and the captain started his report. In a couple of minutes she opened the door, even though she was told not to. the fire flared up again. She shut the door, and opened it up again. That time I shut the door and leaned against the door so she could not open it again. After a bit, the fire cooled down so we could open the door w/o the fire flaring up. Sometimes the best part of the job was the stories we told when we got back to the station. Fortunatly,your story had a good ending. Fix the stove, and next time, call the FD out. A hint, firemen like home baked cookies and bread.


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## AllanJ

Occasionally electric heating elements including stove burners can develop a thin spot as they age. That spot gets hotter than the rest of the element. In your case you noticed that spot; it got brighter red.

I'm almost positvely sure that your oven element was not exactly clean, namely had some (flammable) grease on it. And, are you sure the flour was not additional fuel for a fire? Almost everything dry and organic will burn. Use baking soda, not flour.

I once had an electric stove one of whose burners had a thin spot from day one. Fortunately the manufacturer replaced that burner under warranty.

I don't think any electric ovens have both upper and lower elements on at the same time for cooking. So if you replaced one element with one that worked but was the wrong kind, you should not have any problems with the bottom of the casserole staying raw while the top got burned, etc. It is possible that you would have to relabel the temperature scale on the knob.

Turning off the breaker probably did not make any difference in this situation, but it is good to get in the habit of turning off the breaker in case of an electrical problem.


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## Pipeline

in case of sudden little fire, beth, I would've added a huge helping of SALT!!

it will suffocate the air around the fire as it is *naturally* supposed to do


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## Sammy

Glad things worked out o.k. as far as the fire. 

I didnt go to a lotta college but two coils and two fires in a year or so aint right. Assuming the coils were relatively clean..

I would check the serial/model number at cpsc.gov and GE.com and see if there hasnt been either a recall or reports of issues. You may even want to register the unit at GE in case there are future issues so they can contact you. 

I would also strongly suggest a factory certified GE tech fully examine the entire unit before its even plugged back in.


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## MgMopar

A lot of good advise here. I just want to add, *stop* using your oven for a space heater. With the door open even a little the oven cannot heat up properly to have the heater control to come up to temp, so it runs harder. The unit should be able to handle it but as in your case with the fire. There is also more air getting in to oven and a easy way threw the door opening for the flames to spread if it did get carried away. I belive that the element probably did have impurities that caused it to flame. You also could have stuck on contacts in the control contributing to the overheat condition. ( this may also help explan it aperantly not suting off)

I would recommend doing a web search of your model of oven and see if there have been any safety recalls. 
They may have had a group of bad heater elements and most likely would of found out about them and had a recall. This doesn't mean the old parts came completely out of circulation. So the replacement possibly could of been from the same group. If there is they may cover the repairs it may not even matter how old it is. It would be worth looking into.


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## Pipeline

the only oven I would trust for heating air in a room is a convection [most people do not have that].


There are space heaters that will do the job better than an oven will anyway


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## MgMopar

Pipeline said:


> the only oven I would trust for heating air in a room is a convection [most people do not have that].
> 
> 
> There are space heaters that will do the job better than an oven will anyway



Don't even trust the convection. Ovens are not meant to run with a open door unless they are a commercial conveyer type with open sides. In a emergency it would be possible to use but DO NOT RUN A OPEN OVEN UNATTENDED. They are not tested or build this way. The convection has air flow inside to help cool the element in a open condition but the oven will not heat up to shut down the burner with the door open so it will still have a much heavier work cycle the when it would be used as intended with the door shut.

So when beth does get the oven working safely again a space heater in the kitchen would be safer to get off the chill then tring to use a oven. 

Altho, In colder weather after using the oven for cooking and then shuting it off I will usally keep the door open a crack to let the heat out.


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## GE JIM

Sounds like you just need a new bake element...Kind of unusual for it to go out in a year...Maybe it was longer than that...It"s possible the oven switch went bad at the same time and kept power on the element...When you have the element replaced you will know right away if there are any more problems...Hopefully not..Jim..


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## Pipeline

*Convection* oven do work harder with the door ajar but it does keep the heat going. With the door shut the heat will rise and fall, repeat.

But I, for one, would not use the oven to heat anything more than food.


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## jehiatt

I have had many heating elements burn apart in the oven and on the stovetop. Usually that's all they did and I replaced them later. Flour? whoa!
When in trouble go pull the main breaker. It is a good idea to learn where and which one it is. I have never lived in a house that had the breakers correctly identified. The main breaker is up on top.


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## boman47k

Late seeing this. What was the outcome?


I have never seen an element catch fire unless there was something on it to burn, maybe a thin layer of residual grease.
Anyway, with this one doing the identical thing in a relatively short time, I would check the oven and oven switch for starters. It may be out of calibration or the capillary tube may be damaged or even covered with residual funk. If you use oven cleaner, always try to keep it off the elements and the capillary tube (heat sensor) usually at the rear upper corner of the oven in th eolder ones I worked on.

Speaking of the bubble you noticed, usually when an element gets a short or weak spot in it, it will make a bubble before it pops a hole.

I have washed the outside of elements in dish washing detergent to get any grease residue off. Let dry and reinstall.

P.S. I agree about ovens not being designed as heaters, especially unattended. Glad you were there.
It might be possible that it got so hot with door open and having to heat so much that the insulation inside the element caught fire, not sure.

If you changed the element, I do hope you got one with the right wattage rated for that oven.


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## carmel

Beth777 said:


> Hi. Just the other day, the kitchen was chilly. I turned my GE electric oven on "warm" and opened the oven door a little. The oven was very clean, no food or crumbs inside. Walking by, I noticed the bottom heating coil had a spot where it was glowing red...which does not normally happen. While I looked down at the odd sight, the glowing red spot suddenly erupted into a little flame, about 1 1/2" tall.
> 
> Quickly turned the oven to "off" and shut the oven door. Little flame continued to burn. I opened the oven door and dumped a BIG pile of dry flour on top of the little flame! That should have really smothered the little flame.... Shut the door again.
> 
> That didn't help.
> 
> Little flame continued, and grew..., maybe about 6" or tall by then, spreading along the coil, a developing ring of fire. It burned past where I had dumped the pile of flour! It seemed to be unstoppable, invinceable! Scary! Staying calm, trying to figure this out super-fast...Figuring that the flame was being fueled by electricity (since there didn't seem to be anything else that could possibly be fueling it), I pulled the oven out from the wall and unplugged it. Instantly the flame went out, as soon as it was unplugged. That's when I realized that my knees were weak and my heart was going to pound right out of my chest...considering what might have been...
> 
> The scary part of this, for me, is that we were to leave the house in about 5 minutes for an appointment.....and would have been away for hours. If I had not noticed that little glow...if I had just turned the oven off and left quickly...maybe we would have come home later to a big bonfire.
> 
> The history behind this oven: it was given to us by friends who were remodeling. They said the bottom coil had once caught fire. The husband had been there to put out the fire, and had replaced the coil, and it was fine now with the new coil. That was about a year ago. So, after about a year, the replaced oven coil catches fire...there's an erie pattern developing here!
> 
> Why did it catch fire? Are electric oven coils flammable? Is this an unsafe oven which needs to be dismantled and put into landfill, or is this a fixable problem?
> 
> Ideas and suggestions?
> 
> Our homeowners insurance would cover replacement of the oven, but that would kick in a 3-year surcharge penalty for filing a claim. We'd have to pay the deductible. Wouldn't likely be worth filing.
> 
> What brand of oven would you recommend or not recommend for replacement choice?


BETH:
I had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday afternoon with our approximately 12 year old GE single wall oven, 26 1/4 size. I had turned on the oven to preheat it. When I walked past it again I noticed the little bright light and thought perhaps a grease drip or crumb on fire. I kept the door shut as I knew not to open it nor give it oxygen. It didn't die out however, but kept "sparking" orange sparks......then it continued to travel and change position. I still didn't realize the "COIL" was on fire.
I kept the oven door closed for 45 minutes after I had TURNED IT OFF.
I couldn't shut the back plug off as it is built in to the kitchen cabinets.
Top wall oven. This sparking and "fire" traveled in a "U" shape all around the coil.......I didn't know if I should call the fire department or would that be over reacting.........but then again, I didn't want my kitchen cabinets to burn........it seemed to be getting BRIGHTER.....*(the fire). I called my husband and he was going to come home; we were in the middle of a terrific hail storm......as soon as I went back into the kitchen, it had died out......took almost one hour to die out. I opened the oven door and the COIL WAS ALL CHEWED UP.......IT NOW LOOKS LIKE FABRIC??? The top broiler element is o.k. It really shook me up.......and I figured I'd get a new stainless steel GE wall oven.........but there were some measurement discrepancies on the new ones vs. my space when I called our appliance dealer............anyway, tomorrow morning they are replacing the coil with a $45 in stock coil.........says it is common. The service call is $61 and the installation fee is $30......but $136. is still better than $1,200 to $2,000. My question, was this the best way to go?? Or could it catch on fire again??????? We plan to sell the house in a year or two from now........or else I would have had the new wall oven put in. Also, why, when I shut the oven off immediately after noticing the first "spark" did it keep on growing in intensity (the fire). It looked like a "LAVA FLOW".....THAT'S THE ONLY WAY i CAN DESCRIBE IT.


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## Beth777

*We chose to replace the unit*

Any fire in the house is scary for me! I'm glad you were okay, Carmel. You had the good sense to know that your oven would contain the fire. I just didn't know if it would be contained if it kept burning...got scared!

My burned coil also looked all chewed up after it burned, just like yours, Carmel. And, same thing...keeping the oven door closed did not keep the coil fire from spreading, rising higher, and traveling along the coil, both directions. Maybe mine would have burned itself out like yours did, if I had allowed the entire coil to burn. Mine only instantly stopped burning when the electricity was cut off. 

After watching the coil burn, knowing it was the 2nd coil that had burned in that oven in a fairly short amount of time, from the same spot, I simply could not bring myself to trust the oven again. Too much coincidence. Sent it to landfill...without even checking for any recalls. Put a note on it that this oven catches fire...beware...in case anyone decided to adopt it they'd be forewarned. 

Lessons learned: NO MORE using the oven as a big space heater. No using flour to try to put out fire of any kind. Have extinguisher handy! Always have quick access to the electrical box in case you need to shut off power to something but can't access the outlet because it's built in! Oh, and call 911 earlier rather than later! And bake cookies for some firemen!


PS. Trivia on flour: Flour is good to keep on hand as an emergency treatment to stop bleeding for an injured bird. Birds don't cooagulate well, but a bit of flour is painless and helps to keep them from bleeding to death.


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## Yoyizit

The heating coil is supposed to be Nichrome wire surrounded by a ceramic insulator in an electrically grounded metal tube, so if this thing "burns" I'd have to say there was something flammable on it.

What color was the flame? If it was blue I'd call an Exorcist. I could maybe believe green and certainly yellow (meaning incomplete combustion).

This link shows a stove element temp. as greater than 550°C
http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html
and gives some flame colors, but I don't understand what food residue would wait so long to catch fire.

I wouldn't be surprised if the stove element is still electrically "good."

"Statistics collected in Canada from 2002 to 2005 show that 38 per cent of the fires were attributed to cooking equipment, resulting in 430 fatalities and 4,600 injuries [out of ~30M people]. This clearly shows that the main ingredient in your kitchen is fire safety and prevention.

Tip #1 – Keep an eye on the oven and stove
When you’re cooking, never leave the kitchen and pay attention to what you have in the oven or on the stove.
Tip #2 – Where there’s no air, there’s no flame

If a fire occurs in the oven, leave the door closed and shut off the element."


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## Beth777

*Same size GE oven, maybe the same age too*

But I can't verify the age now, as it's gone...

Yoyizit: Not blue! Not green either. Regular fire-colored flame.

I can't say what burned! Maybe it had some kind of invisible oil spilled on it! At the time, I would have guessed that it was burning from the inside of the coil rather than the other way around, but that was only a layperson's impression from somebody who doesn't know ovens, unfortunately. It would be nice to get to the bottom of what went wrong. Maybe the wrong size coil, or improperly made, or ? 

Like I said, that was the first time I ever knew that an oven coil could catch fire and burn to black crumbles...I thought those things were supposed to be really heat-resistent! And it was instantaneous that the flame came to a complete halt as soon as the electricity was unplugged.

Wonder what kind of combustion that would have been?

So I live and learn....thankful to learn a little bit, and VERY thankful to live on to see another day, another year!


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## Beth777

*jehiatt? with burned heating elements*



jehiatt said:


> I have had many heating elements burn apart in the oven and on the stovetop. Usually that's all they did and I replaced them later. Flour? whoa!
> When in trouble go pull the main breaker. It is a good idea to learn where and which one it is. I have never lived in a house that had the breakers correctly identified. The main breaker is up on top.


Just wondering, to what did you attribute your many heating elements catching fire? 

Thanks for advice to use the main breaker for emergencies!!! And the heads-up that the breakers can be incorrectly identified. Ours were wrong here, just as you said.


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## Yoyizit

Fat burns at 250°C so it can't be that.


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## rodelbirds

*Similar Experience*

Last night I had a similar experience.

The oven was preheating, set at 300, during which time I was putting some leftover pizza on a tray to be reheated. Suddenly light shown through the oven window and there was a buzzing sound.  My initial thought was that the light socket had a short as the oven light bulb has not worked for months - I keep forgetting to change the bulb.

When I opened the oven door, the lower heating element was sparking (arcing) looked like someone was welding - VERY BRIGHT WHITE. It was located where there was a metal support leg holding the element off of the bottom of the oven. I closed the oven door and turned the oven off, the arcing continued for a while, but less intense. Even after the arcing stopped (20 -30 seconds) the element continued glowing bright orange with occasional flare-ups. 

Opening the door again only served to brighten the glow and occasionally reactivate arcing. I realized that opening the oven was increasing oxygen so this was not an unexpected effect. But it was a little puzzling because the *electric source was disconnected*, so why would the arcing start back up? Figuring the heat needed to be arrested (one leg of the fire triangle), and after a bit of internal deliberation finally decided to cautiously push a couple of ice cubes under the element with a wooden spoon. The glowing decreased and eventually stopped - but it was long after I unplugged the oven. By the time it stopped the glow had traveled approximately 4 or 5 inches along the heating coil.

All-in-all it was a pretty scary thing. My dilemma now is what caused it? And should I just replace the heating element or do I need to replace the entire stove? Since it appears that this type of element failure is more common than I would have thought, I'm thinking it's just the element that needs to be replaced and am assuming that the incident started as a result of thin or cracked ceramic insulator at the support leg.


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## Jacques

the heating unit has an electrical coil inside, the outer surface is an insulater. the coil developed a bad spot [usually at a turn] it then shorted through the insulator. why it continued to burn may be due to=flour,grease,etc, or, not all manf use a double line break to heating units[believe now is req'] so if this is the case here you still had one side of the line to heater hot and it was grounding through unit. sometimes when they go like this it pulls so much current it welds other contacts, so even though you turned off it was still electricaly hot...this is a common problem with calrod burners. if you ever see a hot spot devolping-turn off and replace element.


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## rodelbirds

*Burning Oven Element*

Thank you Jacques. I figured it had to be the heat remaining, power coming from the other line makes sense too - I hadn't thought of that. Although the heat build-up makes more sense since it continued to burn and spark even after I disconnected the stove from the power source. I replaced the element and it seems to be working fine.
Thanks again.


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## DangerMouse

wow.... sure makes me glad i cook with gas!

DM


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## Egghead

*Same Thing Happened Today...*

I just got home from my parents' house after my dad asked me to help my mom shut off the breakers to the oven since it was 'arcing.' We called the Fire Department after we flipped all the breakers and power was still flowing to the oven. The firemen finally resorted to pulling the oven out and disconnecting it from the wall.

For those that have been saying there must have been something flammable on the element, there is, it's called metal. Practically nything is flammable at high enough temperatures. The element was burning white-hot as it worked its way around the oven and was launching orange and white sparks. The best way I can describe it would be like a fireworks sparkler.

From what I've read, the problem results from either an impurity or simply a breakdown of the materials in the heating element which can cause a hot spot to form. When the hot spot reaches a critical temperature, it begins a cascade effect that will work its way around the heating element. Shutting the oven door will quell any flames resulting from grease and foods on the element, but it will not quench the underlying cascade as it is fueling itself.

Once the element burns itself out or you shutoff the flow of electricity, it can be removed from the oven and the wires taped or capped off. The oven can then be used without the second element. You can also get a replacement and fix the oven.

I hope this helps someone else, or at least spreads the word about a seemingly common occurence.


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## dresden

I have a bit of what may be a similar problem to the ones described in this thread and I was wondering if anyone could provide some guidance. I recently bought a house with an oven in it (I don't know the history) and I needed a new element for it. I put a brand new element in and it works great, but every time the door is opened there is little sparks that seem to come off the element, but if you wait a few seconds it stops. These aren't big arcs or anything, just a few little sparks like a birthday sparkler that last about a second or two. Close the door for a minute and try again and it does it. I don't know if it is directly related to this problem or just similar. Is this oven safe to use? It appears to work fine otherwise.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Jacques

that's a bizzare problem. you didn't say what brand nor give model/serial #, part #of new element. assuming it's a calrod type. it's normal to burn off anything that's on it when you first turn it on. but shouldn't spark everytime you open door. it almost sounds like some kind of electrical interference. does this oven have a window and can you look inside with door closed- is it arcing?? if no window, hold switch in with door open-still arcing?? bottom line-i would try another element or call a servicer---this doesn't sound good.


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## diy'er on LI

*yes! happened to me years ago... TWICE!*

that exact same thing happened to us. Similarly, the door stayed shut, it didn't extinguish quickly, and it travelled a bit along the coil. The oven was pretty clean, and the hotspot/flame didn't behave like a typical fire.

our oven is almost 35 years old. We had this happen twice... 2 seperate incidents. From my firsthand observations, and knowing a bit about chemistry, I believe egghead's explanation....


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## hbm

*Happened last night* and I will still have to get the turkey ready for tomorrow's Thanksgiving. The restaurant is so easy. (sigh...)

Heating elements that are shorting out (arcing-sparkling) smell nothing like and look nothing like burning food being ignited by a red-hot heating element. Elements burning food, usually oil or drippings, ignite on contact with the elements and make pretty fireplace-like flames--turn the oven switch off for those and open windows to clear smoke. Dry food, like bread and cakes, don't cause fires.

1. *Oven heating elements wear out (often by burning).* Our oven is 8-years-old. The parts shop confirmed: Lots of cooking and self-cleaning can speed up breakdown. *And, yes they keep sparkling until the breaker is turned off; and, stop sparkling immediately.*

2. *Ovens are 220 volt.* The switch is probably on top of the breaker gang on the panel, is a double switch (two locked together), and dedicated to the range-oven. Turn it off. Typical 220 breakers are laundry dryer, water heater and furnace--if electric heat. If the panel door does not have breakers labeled, turn off the double switches, and then find the oven/range-oven switch and keep it off until repairs are made.

3. *Do NOT unplug at wall.* Range-ovens are heavy, and probably bolted to the floor or wall by law, so they don't tip over and drop the turkey you're basting onto the floor. Turn off power at the breaker.

4. *Use baking soda for food fires.* Baking soda and typical fire extinguishers won't put out a shorting heating element fire (sparkling element that looks like July 4 sparkler). In fact, the stuff just makes a mess that has to be cleaned up. And, extinguisher powder goes all over--ours tastes and looks like dirty baking soda. The whole kitchen....

5. *Closing the oven door won't put out the fire*. Ovens are vented, so they get oxygen regardless. A food fire keeps burning until the fuel (or igniter--element) is exhausted, or cools down.

6. I was concerned that another (switch) problem was a culprit--the fire blithely continued after turning off the oven. But, it is logical that heating elements should follow normal electrical standards--one pipe from the oven wall has positive conductor and the other pipe is negative. When the two conductors touch, a short happens. Maybe, a designer can explain the switch issue?

*Prevention:* The excitement of an oven electrical fire can be prevented (and the turkey baked) by looking for "hot spots" on the elements and replacing one that is "hot"--whiter hot than balance of pink to red hot. Of course, if you are me, I'd remind the S.O. and wait for the fireworks. I remember the bake element had a hot spot near the back, a few inches from the oven wall. That's where the fire started.

Call the appliance parts shop listing your brand and buy a new element for $50 to $75. They will want your brand and model, serial number. I tracked the part down via the brand's web site. GE has pictures, to compare. Note: replacement elements need to match the original. Don't try to modify one for another stove.

I'm off to the parts store, now. And, **really** looking forward to cleaning the mess (and the turkey). Bye!

*Too bad this has to be on the 3rd page of horror stories and misinformation....*

Addition-- Wow, lots of people buying new elements!


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## Deathcon5

Egghead said:


> ...For those that have been saying there must have been something flammable on the element, there is, it's called metal. Practically nything is flammable at high enough temperatures. The element was burning white-hot as it worked its way around the oven and was launching orange and white sparks. The best way I can describe it would be like a fireworks sparkler.
> 
> From what I've read, the problem results from either an impurity or simply a breakdown of the materials in the heating element which can cause a hot spot to form. When the hot spot reaches a critical temperature, it begins a cascade effect that will work its way around the heating element. Shutting the oven door will quell any flames resulting from grease and foods on the element, but it will not quench the underlying cascade as it is fueling itself.
> ...


I believe Egghead is on the right track here. My old Kenmore oven (made by GE) just did this on the bottom heating element last night too. It was a tiny bright white hot spot (like a welder) about 1-2 mm across that slowly burnt its way down the heating element, hardly any sparks or flames, spiraling around following the path of the internal coil. 

The way mine happened was my wife was cooking at the time and we heard a Bzzzt sound like an arc and the lights in the house sort of dimmed for a fraction of a second. The microwave was running at the same time so I asked her to check on the microwave and nothing was wrong. A few minutes later she noticed the light in the oven and called me in to have a look. I turned off the oven even though it didn't look like an electrical fire. It looked like a metal fire. I tried to smother it with wet paper towels and it happily burnt along without access to air. I found this quite curious so I took an ice cube and held it against the fire and it just melted it away. It was apparently inextinguishable! I smothered it some more and rotated the bake/broil/off knob just to see what happened. Finally it went out after about 5 - 10 minutes of harassment, having burnt along 6-8 inches of the element. I am curious what the reaction was. I might keep the old element and put the torch to it to see if I can reproduce the fire and play with it more, outside of course. My theory is that the old element formed a crack in the porcelain and the electricity arced and provided enough heat to start a metal fire in the element. Metals usually burn at thousands of degrees and can convert water and CO2 even into oxygen because they are so hot. I will update if I find any more information on this subject.

One other thing. I never considered calling the fire dept. I find that to be a waste of resources. Firemen need to be available for real fires. It's in an oven! Ovens are designed to hold heat. And this little bright light was 1-2 mm across with no fuel source other than itself. If a child lit a sparkler and stuck it in the oven would you call the fire department? Common sense goes a long way.


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## DangerMouse

Man, that would totally freak my @$$,
Makes me glad I cook with gas!

DM


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## McStevenF

*Tungsten Will Burn*

I had this happen 30 minutes ago to my oven. It was also a replacement element. The arcing flame (similar to a welder) did not stop when we turned off the oven but continued on. The circuit breaker tripped but I do not know if that is what stopped the flame.

Contrary to what others have said, Tungsten will burn (oxidize) and form Tungsten Trioxide (W03). That is the reason for sealing light bulbs. You can experience this first hand as I have recently experienced in my research on improved light bulb filaments by breaking the glass on a light bulb and turning the light on. The tungsten will quickly develop a thin spot (in about 1 second) which due to the higher electrical resistance will burn brighter than the rest of the bulb. The flare up will burn the element in two and then stop.

One question I have is whether burning tungsten is self sustaining. I do not believe that it is self sustaining -- otherwise we would have more home fires from ovens. This leads me to believe that there may have been a short in the electrical controls of our oven that caused the element to flare up in the first place and remain on despite turning it off.

P.S. I believe that most heating elements for ovens are Nickel-Chromium (NiCr) instead of Tungsten. But I believe the principle is the same.


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## davemich

*My 2 cents on the stove fire incident.*

In Dec of 2004, my wife was taking a ham out of the oven and noticed the bottom coil 'sparking' near the rear of the oven. We turned off the switch and yes, it continued to burn. We saw a small flame. We took pictures and a movie, since we thought this was quite unusual. I suspected a defective coil and ordered a replacement. This worked well for 7 years. Several days ago, my wife was cleaning the oven and noticed the bottom coil was warm. However, the oven switch was OFF. I turned the switch off/on several times and the circuit breaker tripped. When I reset the breaker, the bottom coil came on 'red hot'. I had to turn off the breaker to turn off the oven. The switch did nothing. I am wondering how a defective switch could do this. I would hope a defective switch would be OFF. If we had not been there to see this, how hot would this have gotten. Has this ever been responsible for a fire? I have sent a note to the manufacturer (GE) asking for an explanation.


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## Jacques

You didn't post your model serial # so don't know what oven you have. there are many alliterations..the sw contacts were burned and then they finally fused,ergo;won't shut off..it happens, as does the burners shorting through their insulation[outer coating]..as to how hot it would have gotten?? depends on model. some have trip outs..if it's just an old non-self cleaning type, before Ralph Nader made manf clean their act up, it would have gone to melt down...and you thought gas was dangerous!!


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## fireguy

Jacques said:


> You didn't post your model serial # so don't know what oven you have. there are many alliterations..the sw contacts were burned and then they finally fused,ergo;won't shut off..it happens, as does the burners shorting through their insulation[outer coating]..as to how hot it would have gotten?? depends on model. some have trip outs..if it's just an old non-self cleaning type, before Ralph Nader made manf clean their act up, it would have gone to melt down...and you thought gas was dangerous!!


 
But will electric make my house go BOOM!?

Lots of stuff is dangerous, but our ignorance allows us to ignore some/most of the dangerous stuff.


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## Leah Frances

First - wow this thread will never die - so to ensure it's continued success....:jester:



fireguy said:


> But will electric make my house go BOOM!?
> 
> Lots of stuff is dangerous, but our ignorance allows us to ignore some/most of the dangerous stuff.


:yes:

I am consistently aghast that people don't remember or expect that LIFE *CAN BE* DANGEROUS. How often have you watched people intentionally close their eyes against hazards or refuse to take simple measures to make their lives safe? Meanwhile, they freak out about rare 'scary' events with low probability of ever occurring and the the dangers of drinking tap water.


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## davemich

*Oven Coil that would not turn off.*

The stove was a GE. Model# JBP30BB1AD. Serial # ZT118929Q. We never used the self cleaning feature. Just cleaned it the old fashioned way. It was 11 years old.


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## Leah Frances

After 11 years the element may have just failed. That's life.


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## davemich

*Oven element*

See my first note: The first element (lower one) burned after 4 years. I installed a replacement and it lasted 7 years. My original complaint was that the oven switch was off, but the coil was hot. I tripped the circuit breaker by turning the oven switch off/on. I reset the breaker and the coil got red hot. Switch = OFF...coil red hot..I saw this to be a bit of a safety hazard. We now have a new stove. I saved the circuit board in case anyone at GE sees this as a problem.


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## cmcjr99

add me to the lucky folks who've just been granted front row access to a fireworks display too....was using the broiler on a steak which had roughly 8 minutes cook time remaining.....stepped into the living room for a minute and then out of the corner of my eye i saw a somewhat familiar bright orange glow coming from the kitchen....i'd had 2 grease fires over the past 13 years and frankly that was what this glow resembled though i knew i had nothing cooking on the stove top other than a a pot of boiling pasta.....i raced to the kitchen and could see that the source of the light show was the broiler coil....the entire coil was glowing as it should while cooking , but there was an incredibly brightly glowing spot about 4 inches from the front and it was clear to see that it was moving forward.....i turned off the power and the rest of the coil cooled enough to "go black" but there was no stopping the burning spot....the color was alternating between orange , white , and blue...honestly , i felt it looked almost exactly like someone welding (well , like the one we use in my job in a machine shop) or a sparkler....five minutes after killing the power the burn had intensified and the coil had literally broken and was falling to the oven floor....i removed a bright orange 6-inch long piece and thoroughly dowsed it then went back for more.....even with 3 pieces removed and soaked , inside the burn was still going , only it appeared to be speeding up....

now come the part you'll flame me for : knowing the coil was useless now that it had burned through and broken apart , all i wanted to do was GET IT OUT OF THE OVEN before the fire moved all the way through the coil into the socket and started some serious problems.......i came back to the living room and grabbed a pair of loppers from behind the front door.....yep...that's right...i said loppers....don't use em in the yard too often , but they certainly did do the trick here....reached into the oven and snipped the coil about 3 inches ahead of the rapidly moving hot spot and then dowsed the coil til it was cool to the touch....

this just happened an hour ago and i haven't touched the oven since....frankly , i don't know exactly what to do to it now....i'm assuming i can still use the stove top , but i'm not sure about the baking element nor do i know if there are any dangers due to possible exposed electrical components and if so , what to do to avoid further problems ....sadly , funds are not available to replace the oven , order and install replacement parts myself (even if i did have any idea of how to do that) , or pay for a service call....so right now i have a 3-burner stove (it WAS 4 at one time but that's a-whole-nother ball of wax as they say) with a baking element and two 8-inch long pieces of a broiler element still just sticking out of their sockets.....


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## chris2020

The same thing happened to me and thank god I was home to unplug the oven and if this is a common occurrence, like the person said previously, then I would like to know how often it happens? Because I'm kind of scared to use my oven now. But what happens to these ovens in this thread the same thing that happens to electrical wires in buildings? If it is, then wow, electricity can be dangerous!


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## bob98

Same thing here on a Kenmore, heating element made by GE. 
Two weeks ago, wife had just finished cooking. The oven was off. She came out and told me dinner was ready, went back to kitchen and I heard the say the oven is on fire!
I thought, maybe a little grease fire, we can control that with a pot lid or the like.
When I got there, nothing was in the oven, the element as far as I could tell was clean.
There was a small yellow glow on the lower element & sparks were coming off it.
Not knowing what would make it spark, I grabbed the fire extinguisher and hit it with dry chemical. That helped a little (reduced some of the sparking); but almost immediately it began glowing again.
Now, the small spot was an inch long and going from pink to red color. 
I hit it once more with the fire extinguisher, after all it's rated for electrical fires (I later learned that the rating means you can use it and not be electrocuted. An electrical fire will not stop until the energy source is removed).
So, now the red color is three inches long on the element. Then it turned white and began to quickly move along the element.
The fire extinguisher powder was vaporized and all in the air.
If it was something that looked containable, I wouldn't have worried. But this wasn't going to go out. So a call was put in to 911.
I thought it was going to spread and spread quickly. The bottom of the oven was beginning to melt.
--I don't know what the element is made from. I wonder what the temperature is for nichrome or tungsten when it is white-hot, almost translucent and the air around it is shimmering. From my reading, for either of those common metals used in making oven elements, white-hot is well over 2000F. That' pretty darn hot.
So, this hot "spot," more like length of the element is moving fast. I told my wife to get out.
Then I realized if the oven is off and this is happening, it must be getting power. I pulled the circuit breaker. The fireworks immediately stopped. The glow of the element disappeared, just as the fire truck arrived.
I didn't want to call the fire department, but I do not think the stove would have contained 2,000+ degrees. I read on other forums where the same thing has happened with Kenmore ovens, with some of them exploding and taking down the house in flames. I did feel silly for calling the fire department when what needed to be done was kill the circuit. but when this was taking place, and it was happening Fast, there were only seconds to react.

Now my insurance company is balking at paying. They say the personal property was damaged by the cloud of vaporized dry chem powder used to fight the fire. Nothing was burned up, no water damage, no smoke damage, so, no coverage. To me this is absurd. Yes there is residue over everything, the residue was caused by me fighting the fire with the fire extinguisher, i used the fire extinguisher because there was at the beginning a small flame and sparks; therefore the residue being over everything and the house unliveable because of it in the air is due to the fire in the oven. If A=B And B=C; then A=C.
It seemed pretty clear logic.
The firemen said the stove is a total loss.
I have asthma. they told me to take my inhalers and get out of the house.
I would have thought the insurance company would have said "thank you" for keeping the house from burning down. Instead it's nothing but grief from them. And they won't replace the oven. They say it must have been defective. I am supposed to prove to them that it is not.

Moral of the story: even if you have an ABC fire extinguisher, it will not put out an electrical fire. The power must be shut off at the breaker.
And as far as insurance: Don't try to fight the fire. Go to a neighbor's house. Call 911 from there. If the house goes up in the time it takes to do that (and fire goes very fast), you may be better off than the grief given when asking them to clean the place up by you saving it. It seems like they would rather fork out a quarter of a million dollars than pay $4-$5 thousand.

At least we are alive.


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## TimAllen37

that is scary. i'm sorry that happened to you. thank god you and your home are okay! and yes, i would definitely consider getting a new oven. you can't let anything like that get even close to happening again.


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## bob98

Thanks Tim. Unfortunately, in fighting the fire I did not escape without injury.
What I do not understand is with so many people reporting the same thing, why is no one stepping in to protect the consumer.
What good is the Consumer Product Safety Commission? You can look at other forums and there are hundreds of these reports.
And people who have filed reports with the CPSC are now at least getting some word back from Sears. But it's all the same,
something like: Sears takes these reports seriously, please call .... And that's it. over and over. 
Where is an attorney who will take this on? The answer I'm getting is it is just not big enough damages. That is probably true.
But if it were a class action, then the damages would mount up rapidly. 

We need to get unsafe products off the market, even if they are made by GE and Westinghouse for Sears.

Anyway, it is a shame and shame on Sears. Someone, if not already, is going to die from this.
The doc tells me it'll probably take about 4 years before they can say if my injuries will be permanent.


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## bob98

to Hychesee & bowman47, (and all) you said you'd had never seen an element on fire or it must be something on it that is burning.

Take a look at this from youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=lHJI47jWuJ4 

It looks like arc-welding. 

It's the element & definitely not something on it that is, unless you consider the outside metal, that is burning. I know the element in my oven was clean. There were flame, sparks, white hot heat about 6" long, traveling along element. In my case it was moving much faster than in the youtube I found that someone had posted. Just before I got to the circuit breaker and pulled it, the element was so hot it looked like it was melting; as well as the oven bottom being burned.

One person on youtube was filming it. It blew up while he was filming.

My element came from GE. Sears told me, because mine (as is many others) is out of warranty, they will not replace it.

I expect older, out of warranty, items to break and need fixing, but not burn down the house or explode.

Bob


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## Cyaroun06

This JUST happened to me tonight (GE Electric) and I can tell you for sure that the oven is clean and there is no grease on the coil. I just cleaned the oven a few days ago and have used it twice since then with no problems. It has always cooked hotter in the back left but the fire started in the right front. I kept the door closed most of the time but with oxygen, the flame was fueled to about 3" high. As it burned, it seemed to be the same white-hot sparking and sound as I have seen in welding. Turning off has no effect and unplugging was impossible (it is hard-wired for some stupid unsafe reason). Flipping the breaker made the fire stop, which means to me it was electrical, not 'just something on the element'. Now it looks as though it has been welded, with slag even... now the question is- does this happen to every GE oven or just this model?


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## fireguy

Maybe itis time to contact the Consumer Safety Commision?  http://www.cpsc.gov/


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## bob98

I contacted them, made a report both on the phone and paper documents.
There was no response.
No action taken.
I was told that the company would be notified (Sears/GE).
If they were notified, it made no difference.

And as far as the consumer protection--not a peep.

You'd think with so many complaints over so many years, they take action. Something is wrong with the range's basic design.

Aside: on youtube people have made video of this while it was happening.
One person was recording and the oven exploded while he was recording.

I was dismayed at another. He was waiting for the element to burn itself out.
He panned to a picture of a fire-extinguisher, saying it was ready to be used if the fire & melting element didn't stop.

Obviously, he did not know that a fire-extinguisher is no help.
the only way to stop the fire is to kill the power to the range.

--I'm still fighting with my insurance company. They have acted in really "bad-faith" by not providing or denying to pay for things that were damaged. they still say the damage to personal property was because I used the fire-extinguisher to put out the fire and the residue that settled over everything, because I did that, is my fault.

Nor will they replace the defective range. I didn't realize that is how it works. In the policy it states that they do not pay for fixing or replacing what caused the fire--in this case the range. 

It caused the fire, so no pay to have it replaced (fire dept. said it is total loss).
And as I mentioned, personal property damage, air quality in the house, none of that is covered because it is my fault from using the fire-extinguisher.


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## jehiatt

It likely happens to all brand heating elements. It's scary when it happens and it is like Welding. It normally burns itself a gap wide enough to stop the current flow. Flipping the breaker was great. Knowing where it was is even better. I have had three such incidents in 24 years and none were GE.


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## jasin

fireguy said:


> His comments about not putting an extinguisher above the stove is a good idea. Each home should have at least one extinguisher. The extinguisher should be rated at 2A10BC at a minimum. Don't buy an extinguisher with a plastic valve assembly, they are of low quality. my company will not recharge those things. Put it near an exit and have it inspected by an professional agency.


What if your stove is next to the exit, like mine is? hmm


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## oh'mike

Jasin--I bet you could get someone to help you with that ---

Start a separate thread on extinguisher placement and the smart members here will come up with a solution for you--


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## jehiatt

*Close the oven door!*

No one mentioned closing the oven door to keep air from fueling a flame and
one certainly needs to shut off the power before trying to douse it also.
On a bottom burner hot metal slag can dip to the metal floor pan and start another path of "welding" going on. 
AFCI Arc Fault circuit interrupters (AFCI) are new type circuit breakers
that senses an arc and opens automatically, as well as function as an overload breaker. New homes may well be required to have them someday. If replacing a defective breaker get an AFCI.


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## bgeuns1

*Ours burned also*

I am an avid baker, and have had an electric range for over 40 years. The GE I purchased several years ago at Sears, however, posed us a new scare last evening. After we were done baking a pizza, when the oven was turned off (and yes the oven was clean), a spark suddenly happened on the lower coil, and it started burning like a giant sparkler (or molten lava melting). It moved slowly around the coil and built in intensity as it grew...with the oven door closed. We tried to throw baking soda on it, but it kept on growing. The coil was bright red also as this happened. We had to unplug it from the wall to get it to stop. I am just thankful that we were home when this happened, and hope this doesn't burn someones house down. Scarey scarey stuff.


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## fireguy

jehiatt said:


> No one mentioned closing the oven door to keep air from fueling a flame and
> one certainly needs to shut off the power


 
Post # 2


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## cbirk

*Really?*

I have a hard time reading this thread with all of these "Experts" Commenting. Firstly that in 20-30 years they have never seen this happen. If you google it you will come up with all sorts of videos. Which if you watch you will see that it burns hot along the element, like a fuse (Speaking as s demolitions specialist from the Military, and an Applied Phycisist) the burning resembled that of perhaps the slow burning magnesium sticks (only pure white in color), and sparks like an arc welder. The Nichrome core has a melting point of about 1400 C, And roughly speaking, a white flame is between 1400-1600 C. All this info together suggests to me that some sort of weakening of the ceramic insulator resulted in it burning through and catching fire and an extreme temperature.

When this happened to me the fire department had an extremely high temperature reading on the element 30 minutes after I had unplugged the stove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHJI47jWuJ4 is a good video you can watch, and if you still think this is a grease fire, then I highly question your "Expert Credentials"

I apologize if my first post is a little terse, but it is rather irritating to see someone a little scared come on here asking for help and have so many "experts" basically tell her she is stupid and there was just food burning. :furious:


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## KaseyW

*Add me to the list*

I discovered this thread, as I'm sure most others did, while searching for an explanation as to why the baking element in the oven of my old Roper range burned/melted/disintegrated while I was baking a pumpkin pie for Thanksgiving. 

I was apparently a lot luckier than most (thank you Lord!) because I didn't see the melt-down take place. I just went to the kitchen when the timer said the pie should be done to discover that the pie was still liquid and the oven was cold. The first 'strange' thing I noticed was a fine, white powder covering the black drip-pan of the burner where the oven vents. It was only when I was removed the cookie sheet with the pie on it that I saw the baking element. It's pretty obvious that the "burning" took place at the core because there are spots along the damaged length where it's obvious that vaporized insulation forced its way through the outer covering and sprayed across the floor of the oven, thus explaining the mysterious white powder covering everything. 

Thinking back I realize that, for the last couple weeks, the oven has been getting progressively “hotter” as I’ve had to reduce baking times by several minutes to avoid overcooking things; I just didn’t realize what it meant. 

My question is: how dangerous are the chemicals/residue that were released by the extreme heat? Should I be obsessively cleaning every surface in the house?


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## blott0

Hurray, I am the first person in 2013 to have this happen. What a bizarre experience. The element sure reminded me of a sparkler, until I unplugged the stove.

The really crazy thing about my situation is that I just had a final inspection done today on some electrical work I did. Nothing even close to the oven. I have no idea what would've happened if no one was at home, but if it turned into a really bad situation, you know I would've gotten blamed.


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## danpik

blott0 said:


> Hurray, I am the first person in 2013 to have this happen. What a bizarre experience. The element sure reminded me of a sparkler, until I unplugged the stove.
> 
> The really crazy thing about my situation is that I just had a final inspection done today on some electrical work I did. Nothing even close to the oven. I have no idea what would've happened if no one was at home, but if it turned into a really bad situation, you know I would've gotten blamed.


No, you are just the first to resurect this post. I changed out two of them already this year. First one was on Jan 4th and the second one was about a week ago. Similar problems, element burned and made a mess. New elements and they are good to go.


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## av-geek

This failure spurs like an arc fault. The element churned out, but July completely. An electrical connection was still being made across the gap, creating a spark that got much hotter then the element tyically would. The arc, not really a fire per se continued until power was cut. So why didnt it quit when the switch was cut? Well, when you said that food cooks unevenly, I bet the thermostat in your oven is stuck on. The mode switch was maybe working, but when the failure occurred, the switch may have burned together in the higher current. I would replace the element AND replace the thermostat and any switches too.


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## Ben321

I'm pretty sure this is not a true fire. It rather was an electric arc. Notice that when you unplugged the power, it immediately went out. Here's how I think it happened, and let me start from the beginning.

A stove has 4 prongs on the plug. These are Hot (0deg phase), Neutral, Hot (180deg phase), and Ground. You see the power transformer on the utility pole has 3 outputs, Hot-0deg, Neutral, and Hot-180deg. A grounding stake is driven into the ground near the pole and a cable goes from the neutral connector to the grounding stake. Also 3 lines run from the transformer to your house. At at your house there is another grounding stake or a metal water pipe is used, and a wire goes from that to all the ground contacts in your outlets. The neutral wire from the goes from the wire inlet in your house to all your outlets. The Hot-0deg wire goes from your wire inlet in your house to a breaker/fuse box, and hot wires for all the outlets in the house go out from there. The Hot-180deg wire goes to the breaker/fuse box and from there you have hot-180deg wires that go to just the 240volt outlets (such as your stove). At a 240v outlet, Neutral to Ground should be 0 volts. Hot (either one) to Neutral (or Ground) should be 120 volts, and Hot-0deg to Hot-180deg should be 240v. The heating element in your oven is Hot to Hot so it runs on 240v. A heating element consists of a resistive wire (nichrome or tungsten). A tube of ceramic insulation surrounds the resistive wire. A steel tube surrounds the ceramic insulator. Each end of the resistive wire should be connected to a Hot wire. The steel sheath should be connected to the metal chassis of the stove, which itself should be connected to the Ground wire.

As the heating element ages, cracks can develop in the resistive wire, thinning it at spots these spots will look brighter than the rest of the heating element. The current flowing through thinner spots will heat them more, eventually exceeding the melting point of the wire, causing it to "burn out". At this moment though an arc can strike across the small gap. the arc will be extremely hot and consume more power than the rest of the element. This will make this spot glow quite bright, and the rest of the heating element will get significantly dimmer than it was before. If you cut the power on your oven's switch at this point the arc will be extinguished. If you are unaware it is arcing, and it goes on for a long enough time, the heat from the arc can crack the ceramic insulation. Then the arc also will rise like a "Jacob's ladder" arc until it touches the steel sheath at a point that the ceramic insulation was compromised by cracking. At this point you will have 2 arcs, one from Hot-0deg to Ground and one from Hot-180deg to Ground. The heat from the arc will now melt the steel sheath. Since it isn't shielded by argon gas (like in arc welding or plasma cutting) though, the steel sheath will oxidize from the heat of the arc and won't be conductive (iron oxide rust is an insulator) so will fall away and not fill the gap where the arc is (which could stop the arc if it was conductive and did fill the gap). As a result, the arc on each side of the break in the heating element will keep arcing from Hot to Ground, slowly destroying the heating element (looking sort of like a candle wick slowly burning downward, but a LOT brighter, and it isn't actually a burning flame like a candle, but rather an electric arc). The more it goes on the less resistive wire there will be, so the more current will flow, and the brighter and hotter the arc will be. If allowed to "plasma cut" its way all the way back to the contacts where the heating element connects to the socket, it will then have NO resistance from the resistive wire (which previously was acting like a ballast for a mercury arc lamp). With no current limiting it will basically be a short circuit and your arc will turn into an "arc flash". However your circuit breaker will respond to an excess of current way before then (like 30A or whatever the oven circuit's circuit breaker in your house's breaker box is set for) and trip, stopping the arc.

However the moment you notice the arc you should turn off the power by turning off the knob on your stove. However if the arc is already proceeding to melt back the heating element on both sides, this may or may not work completely. If the switch only cuts off the Hot-0deg line, then the arc will still be going from Hot to Ground on one side of the element but will be stopped from the other side. This will require you to unplug the stove from the outlet, or manually switch off the oven's breaker in your house's breaker box if your oven is hardwired or the outlet is inaccessible. If the oven's setting knob switch cuts off both Hot lines, then turning the knob to "off" is all you will need to do to stop the arc on both sides of the element.

You should NOT throw anything onto the burner. It is not on fire. It is an electric arc. And whatever you do, NEVER throw flour. Flour burns, and when thrown it floats in the air, which if then it contacts the electric arc it can cause a mini "grain silo explosion" in your oven. VERY DANGEROUS. Also do not stare at a strong electric arc like the one from an oven element failure. It may look no brighter than a lighbulb glowing, but an electric arc in the air emits UV rays (air is mostly nitrogen, and the emission spectrum of nitrogen gas has a few strong lines in the in the UV region), and UV rays are dangerous to the eyes, the same reason you aren't supposed to look at a welding arc without proper eye protection.

You shouldn't necessarily need to call the fire department though, as it's not a fire, and unless there is evidence that the arc started a fire, there is no reason to call. If something in the stove is burning though, and ESPECIALLY if there is an electrical failure that causes the wall to feel hot somewhere or the electrical breaker box feels hot (possible indication of a fire in the wall or a short that might lead to a fire in the wall), then it's time to call the fire department. Only the fire department can properly handle a building on fire (flames inside the wall or other place in a building that's not accessible to the ordinary person with a fire extinguisher). If there's a fire in the oven though, a proper ABC fire extinguisher will put it out, and with there being no where else the fire could POSSIBLY have gone (being contained inside the all-metal oven), there's no possibility it spread to be inside a wall or something. So a simple fire put out with an extinguisher isn't in and of itself a reason to dial 911. But if there's reason to believe the fire spread (possibly inside a wall), then you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD call 911 IMMEDIATELY.


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## Ben321

I think this diagram I drew might help explain it better.


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## PRS12

*Same experience in double oven, unsure how to repair after*

We had a similar experience to everyone else with the bottom element of our oven catching on fire and looking like a sparkler as it burned its way around. We tried water and a dry fire extinguisher but only turning off the breaker to the oven stopped it from burning.

After removing some screws I was able to remove what remained of the element, leaving the two clips that attach to the element sticking out of the back of the oven about an inch or so apart. They did not seem to be damaged. We cleaned the oven cavity completely and because it is a double wall oven (GE Profile Performance Model # JT950S0Y1SS) I figured we could turn the breaker back on and at least use the bottom oven in the mean time. However when I did, the breaker immediately switched back to the middle position suggesting an electrical issue and my wife reported seeing some sort of flash/sparks inside the oven upstairs in the kitchen.

Do I need to install the replacement element in the upper oven for the rest of the oven to work or do I need to do something to the two clips to prevent arcing between then? Is there some sort of fuse or other component inside the oven itself that might have blown during the original fire and needs to be replaced?

Am not keen to replace the whole double oven if it can be easily repaired but don't want to spend $60 on a replacement element if the whole thing is a write-off.


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## Bob Sanders

I seriously doubt you have arcing between the two connectors if they're an inch apart. 120volts... even 240volts can't make a one inch jump. Notwithstanding, if the oven switch is off then one of those connectors is off and open completely (unless of course the contacts inside the switch/relay are welded shut)

Clearly you do still have a short there somewhere though (I would suspect somewhere on the non switched leg) and that needs to be cleared up before you can run again.


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## PRS12

When I looked closer one of the two connections was unchanged but the other had fused to the side of the opening where the element connections come out of the back. Could it have arced onto the metal lining of the oven? It came loose without much effort and looked to be still in good shape. Our replacement element has arrived at our local store so may pick it up and give it a try tonight.


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## JasperST

PRS12 said:


> When I looked closer one of the two connections was unchanged but the other had fused to the side of the opening where the element connections come out of the back. Could it have arced onto the metal lining of the oven? It came loose without much effort and looked to be still in good shape. Our replacement element has arrived at our local store so may pick it up and give it a try tonight.


That would be a short and the reason your breaker is tripping. Obviously the issue needs addressing before you install the new element. Buy a meter if you don't have one and test it out before firing it up.


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## BigWheel

Ben321 said:


> I'm pretty sure this is not a true fire. It rather was an electric arc. Notice that when you unplugged the power, it immediately went out. Here's how I think it happened, and let me start from the beginning.
> 
> A stove has 4 prongs on the plug. These are Hot (0deg phase), Neutral, Hot (180deg phase), and Ground. You see the power transformer on the utility pole has 3 outputs, Hot-0deg, Neutral, and Hot-180deg. A grounding stake is driven into the ground near the pole and a cable goes from the neutral connector to the grounding stake. Also 3 lines run from the transformer to your house. At at your house there is another grounding stake or a metal water pipe is used, and a wire goes from that to all the ground contacts in your outlets. The neutral wire from the goes from the wire inlet in your house to all your outlets. The Hot-0deg wire goes from your wire inlet in your house to a breaker/fuse box, and hot wires for all the outlets in the house go out from there. The Hot-180deg wire goes to the breaker/fuse box and from there you have hot-180deg wires that go to just the 240volt outlets (such as your stove). At a 240v outlet, Neutral to Ground should be 0 volts. Hot (either one) to Neutral (or Ground) should be 120 volts, and Hot-0deg to Hot-180deg should be 240v. The heating element in your oven is Hot to Hot so it runs on 240v. A heating element consists of a resistive wire (nichrome or tungsten). A tube of ceramic insulation surrounds the resistive wire. A steel tube surrounds the ceramic insulator. Each end of the resistive wire should be connected to a Hot wire. The steel sheath should be connected to the metal chassis of the stove, which itself should be connected to the Ground wire.
> 
> As the heating element ages, cracks can develop in the resistive wire, thinning it at spots these spots will look brighter than the rest of the heating element. The current flowing through thinner spots will heat them more, eventually exceeding the melting point of the wire, causing it to "burn out". At this moment though an arc can strike across the small gap. the arc will be extremely hot and consume more power than the rest of the element. This will make this spot glow quite bright, and the rest of the heating element will get significantly dimmer than it was before. If you cut the power on your oven's switch at this point the arc will be extinguished. If you are unaware it is arcing, and it goes on for a long enough time, the heat from the arc can crack the ceramic insulation. Then the arc also will rise like a "Jacob's ladder" arc until it touches the steel sheath at a point that the ceramic insulation was compromised by cracking. At this point you will have 2 arcs, one from Hot-0deg to Ground and one from Hot-180deg to Ground. The heat from the arc will now melt the steel sheath. Since it isn't shielded by argon gas (like in arc welding or plasma cutting) though, the steel sheath will oxidize from the heat of the arc and won't be conductive (iron oxide rust is an insulator) so will fall away and not fill the gap where the arc is (which could stop the arc if it was conductive and did fill the gap). As a result, the arc on each side of the break in the heating element will keep arcing from Hot to Ground, slowly destroying the heating element (looking sort of like a candle wick slowly burning downward, but a LOT brighter, and it isn't actually a burning flame like a candle, but rather an electric arc). The more it goes on the less resistive wire there will be, so the more current will flow, and the brighter and hotter the arc will be. If allowed to "plasma cut" its way all the way back to the contacts where the heating element connects to the socket, it will then have NO resistance from the resistive wire (which previously was acting like a ballast for a mercury arc lamp). With no current limiting it will basically be a short circuit and your arc will turn into an "arc flash". However your circuit breaker will respond to an excess of current way before then (like 30A or whatever the oven circuit's circuit breaker in your house's breaker box is set for) and trip, stopping the arc.
> 
> However the moment you notice the arc you should turn off the power by turning off the knob on your stove. However if the arc is already proceeding to melt back the heating element on both sides, this may or may not work completely. If the switch only cuts off the Hot-0deg line, then the arc will still be going from Hot to Ground on one side of the element but will be stopped from the other side. This will require you to unplug the stove from the outlet, or manually switch off the oven's breaker in your house's breaker box if your oven is hardwired or the outlet is inaccessible. If the oven's setting knob switch cuts off both Hot lines, then turning the knob to "off" is all you will need to do to stop the arc on both sides of the element.
> 
> You should NOT throw anything onto the burner. It is not on fire. It is an electric arc. And whatever you do, NEVER throw flour. Flour burns, and when thrown it floats in the air, which if then it contacts the electric arc it can cause a mini "grain silo explosion" in your oven. VERY DANGEROUS. Also do not stare at a strong electric arc like the one from an oven element failure. It may look no brighter than a lighbulb glowing, but an electric arc in the air emits UV rays (air is mostly nitrogen, and the emission spectrum of nitrogen gas has a few strong lines in the in the UV region), and UV rays are dangerous to the eyes, the same reason you aren't supposed to look at a welding arc without proper eye protection.
> 
> You shouldn't necessarily need to call the fire department though, as it's not a fire, and unless there is evidence that the arc started a fire, there is no reason to call. If something in the stove is burning though, and ESPECIALLY if there is an electrical failure that causes the wall to feel hot somewhere or the electrical breaker box feels hot (possible indication of a fire in the wall or a short that might lead to a fire in the wall), then it's time to call the fire department. Only the fire department can properly handle a building on fire (flames inside the wall or other place in a building that's not accessible to the ordinary person with a fire extinguisher). If there's a fire in the oven though, a proper ABC fire extinguisher will put it out, and with there being no where else the fire could POSSIBLY have gone (being contained inside the all-metal oven), there's no possibility it spread to be inside a wall or something. So a simple fire put out with an extinguisher isn't in and of itself a reason to dial 911. But if there's reason to believe the fire spread (possibly inside a wall), then you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD call 911 IMMEDIATELY.




I too was frustrated at the assumptions and incorrect ideas stated by posters on why this was happening, so I want to say: the above answer is accurate and true, (while including the small electronics engineering friendly details) and Ben321 saved me the effort of typing something similar. 

Basically, the problem here in real easy to understand terms is:

The element got weak (for whatever reason, doesn't matter), and it started to spark (arc) inside, it heated up real hot, it broke (separated into two), and then started an electrical short to itself (using one half of the element, as you likely observed yourself), getting hotter as the element got "smaller" from being burned. It likely didn't trip the breaker (yet) because when the electricity goes through the element, the element restricts how much electricity can flow through. As the element gets smaller from being "Burned", it doesn't restrict as much, and at that point the breaker may (hopefully) trip.

If you're able to, you can likely fix this yourself really quick by turning off the oven, or if that doesn't work, unplug the oven. If that is not an option, turn off the correct breaker. If that is not an option, turn off the main breaker. 

At this point, the spark/fire will likely be out and the element will be getting less red. You will have to let the oven cool for a good while before dealing with how you're going to replace the element. Make sure to have the power off while replacing it, and keep power off to the oven until the element is replaced, as it could start arcing again (depending how your oven is designed).

This is not a complete step by step, and doesn't cover safety and all that, it's just an overview really.

It is possible you may have several oven elements do this in your lifetime, especially if your particular stove does not "fully" turn off power to "both" ends of the element (this is not something most of you can determine on your own without electrical meters, etc).

Hope this quick summary helps someone.


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## JasperST

BigWheel said:


> as the element gets smaller from being "Burned", it doesn't restrict as much, and at that point the breaker may (hopefully) trip.


As conductive material gets destroyed the resistance will increase, not decrease.


> If you're able to, you can likely fix this yourself really quick by turning off the oven, or if that doesn't work, unplug the oven. If that is not an option, turn off the correct breaker. If that is not an option, turn off the main breaker.


Yes, turn it off immediately, then turn off the breaker. It will be one of the large double pole ones. If the panel isn't marked it should be done. It's better to trip off all of them and figure it out later if in doubt. Unplugging a stove will take the longest in a typical setup.

If an element is looking funky, replace it before it fails.


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## Bob Sanders

BigWheel said:


> If you're able to, you can likely fix this yourself really quick by turning off the oven.
> .


Simply turning off the oven most likely WON'T cure the problem.

As you have stated(in slightly different words):
An oven element uses not one but two 120 volt legs to make the necessary 240 volts to power the element. But the off-on switch on most ovens only controls ONE of the 120 volt legs. This means there is still 120 volts at the element and because the casing of the element is grounded the chain burning reaction will continue until the entire element has burnt itself up, or the other leg is disconnected through unplugging the stove or flipping the breaker.


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## Ben321

JasperST said:


> As conductive material gets destroyed the resistance will increase, not decrease.
> Yes, turn it off immediately, then turn off the breaker. It will be one of the large double pole ones. If the panel isn't marked it should be done. It's better to trip off all of them and figure it out later if in doubt. Unplugging a stove will take the longest in a typical setup.
> 
> If an element is looking funky, replace it before it fails.


Actuallly, as the metal gets destroyed it will decrease the resistance because the length of the resistor that the current is traveling through is getting shorter, and resistance is proportional to the length of the conductor. What will increase is the amount of current flowing in the circuit. current = voltage / resistance.


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## Ben321

Bob Sanders said:


> Simply turning off the oven most likely WON'T cure the problem.
> 
> As you have stated(in slightly different words):
> An oven element uses not one but two 120 volt legs to make the necessary 240 volts to power the element. But the off-on switch on most ovens only controls ONE of the 120 volt legs. This means there is still 120 volts at the element and because the casing of the element is grounded the chain burning reaction will continue until the entire element has burnt itself up, or the other leg is disconnected through unplugging the stove or flipping the breaker.


It's still worth trying the stove's regular switch first though. If that doesn't work, unplug it or turn off the circuit breaker.


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## Ben321

BigWheel said:


> Make sure to have the power off while replacing it, and keep power off to the oven until the element is replaced, as it could start arcing again (depending how your oven is designed).


It can't start arcing again once the arc is extinguished. The arc will be about an 8th to a 4th of an inch in length, far longer than the distance that 120v will be able to strike an arc over. Remember, the initial arc was struck only at the exact moment that the heating element broke, and at that point it there was 240v across the gap. Center conductor to outer conductor is only 120v. 120v would only be able to strike an arc across a gap if that gap was about as small as the thickness of a hair or less. The only reason that a much longer arc was sustained at 120v was the large amount of current flowing through the arc. The current flowing would have been probably 10amps or more (and would continue to increase the more that the arc moved closer to the power source, and thus encountered less resistance), and that is quite a large amount of current. Once the current was shut off though, it would take a few THOUSAND volts to restrike the arc.


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## Sladefree

hychesee said:


> I have worked in the electrical field for over 30 years have never head of a heating element that would burn.
> Though they have amended the fire triangle to include chemical reaction - I still believe in the original 3: heat, fuel, and oxygen.
> 
> I think you just over reacted to a grease spot burning on the electric element and adding the flour was just more fuel to burn, by the time you unplugged it, it had burned itself out. Electricity doesn't make fire all it can do is add heat to the process, the hidden pepperoni from the pizza you baked the night before was the fuel.
> 
> Fireguy is right on with his advice, leaving the door closed would of been the best thing to do until it burned out. I keep two $15 type abc fire extinguishers in my house, one by the kitchen exit and the other by the house exit. Extinguishes are not recommended for grease fires because it can blow the burning grease around, just cover with a lid or another big pan/pot.


Goes to show, 30 years of experience doesn’t mean you know it all. There are videos all over YouTube of the elements sparking. Either the inner electrode had a runaway high resistance open or the outer ceramic was compromised. Both lead to electrical arc and fire since oxygen is present and the fuel is the metal itself. You basically have a 240v welder in your oven when this happens. What’s silly is that this doesn’t trip the breaker because it’s still not drawing enough amps to trip. All because you are supposed to be able to use the oven and stove top at the same time so the breakers are oversized. Makes me wanna downgrade my breaker or get a smarter breaker that senses spikes, not just over current.


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## Oso954

7 year old thread resurrected by a newbie.


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## cruelsun

Actually, by my count this thread has died seven times for three to six months or more and been resurrected now for the eighth time....


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## viper

And yet not one person has responded with intelligible and correct responses in 12yrs. I guess it is a DIY forum, so....


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