# Primer Not Bonding to Cabinets



## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Are these cabinets bare wood or already finished? I'm not familiar with S&W primers, are these latex or oil based?

Additionally, did you clean the cabinets before priming? Including removing the sanding dust?


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

As asked above - latex or oil base primer?
What prep was done? 4 hrs might not be long enough dry time.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Im assuming these were already painted, or finished. If they were stained and finished, you need a shellac primer. 

You also needed to clean, rinse and scuff sand all of them. Primer sometimes takes more than four hours to get hard. It might just need more time.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Sherwin williams. Nuf said


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## jgiardino89 (Jan 18, 2019)

I did sand and prep everything. I vacuumed, wiped with damp cloth, then dried with a clean cloth. They are wood cabinets with a finish on them.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

Did you clean them before sanding them?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

The reason you're getting asked a lot of questions above is that there is a LOT of prep that needs done before slapping on the primer. You could possibly have grease, dirt, oils from fingerprints, etc. that need cleaned off before you scuff sand and then apply primer.

Post a picture of what's going on and we can better direct you. You say "wood cabinets with a finish on them." That's not a whole lot of info to go on. What kind of finish? Paint? What kind of paint? Stain and clear coat? What kind of clear coat? Old pickled finish? Maybe not clear coat at all? Just lots of variables that can affect things.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Painting finished surfaces requires patience and preparation. Here is the process I used for painting a rolling buffet we bought at a house sale.

Start by thoroughly cleaning the surfaces with a trisodium phosphate solution. Be sure to carefully follow the instructions on the packaging and be sure to wear gloves and eye protection.

When the surfaces have dried, sand with 320 grit paper until there is a uniformed dull appearance. Place a light source at an angle. Any shiny area indicates missed areas that need to be sanded.

Wipe the surface with a tack cloth to remove any dust.

Apply 2 coats of a quality primer/sealer. Be sure the first coat is completely dry before applying the second.

Once the primer is thoroughly dry lightly sand the surface and wipe with a tack rag.
Apply two coats of quality enamel paint allowing sufficient drying time between coats.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

Drachenfire said:


> Painting finished surfaces requires patience and preparation. Here is the process I used for painting a rolling buffet we bought at a house sale.
> 
> Start by thoroughly cleaning the surfaces with a trisodium phosphate solution. Be sure to carefully follow the instructions on the packaging and be sure to wear gloves and eye protection.
> 
> ...



I don't recommend TSP anymore for a few reasons, bad for environment, too strong solution will etch surfaces, needs to be rinsed extremely well. A mild detergent solution, Dirtex is what I carry, is better in 99% of cases. The aerosol version contains ammonia and makes a great glass cleaner.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Another thing to consider is that previous owners could have cleaned the cabinets with "god knows what." Murphy's oil soap, TSP, and many other cleaners with wax and/or silicone in them can cause the issues too. That's why a thorough cleaning and sanding BEFORE the primer is applied is of the utmost importance.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I don't recommend TSP anymore for a few reasons, bad for environment, too strong solution will etch surfaces, needs to be rinsed extremely well. A mild detergent solution, Dirtex is what I carry, is better in 99% of cases. The aerosol version contains ammonia and makes a great glass cleaner.


This is why I stressed that the instructions on the package must be followed.

While TPS might etch raw wood or poorly finished surfaces, the buffet we restored had a polyurethane finish. I had absolutely no issues with etching.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

Drachenfire said:


> This is why I stressed that the instructions on the package must be followed.
> 
> While TPS might etch raw wood or poorly finished surfaces, the buffet we restored had a polyurethane finish. I had absolutely no issues with etching.



TSP can etch glass surfaces rather easily, and again can affect the adhesion of top coats if not rinsed extremely thoroughly. Dirtex is an excellent cleaner and rinses clean every time with no residue left. Makes a good hardwood floor cleaner and washing machine booster too.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

IMO TSP is best used on the exterior where you can use a pressure washer [or garden hose] to rinse it well.


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## jgiardino89 (Jan 18, 2019)

I prepped everything properly. Degreased, wiped down, sanded, cleaned, and wiped with tac rag. 

The primers that I tried from SW were latex based, I'm guessing that's why they didn't work. After doing some research on primers, I took a trip to my local Home Depot and picked up some Zinsser BIN Primer, shellac based.

After re-prepping the cabinets, this shellac based primer did the trick and bonded properly. 

The gentleman at Home Depot said I do not need to sand the Zinsser primer before applying my paint. What would you guys recommend? 

Attached are some photos of the primer that did not work with scrape marks from my fingernail to test the primer.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

It is always good practice to sand between coats of paint, including the primer. That both promotes good adhesion and helps to eliminate or reduce brush marks or any other defects in the coating.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

AHHHH, for future reference, include these very important details........we could have had your question answered in post 2 or 3.

"The primers that I tried from SW were latex based, I'm guessing that's why they didn't work. After doing some research on primers, I took a trip to my local Home Depot and picked up some Zinsser BIN Primer, shellac based."


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I still don't get it. One photo looks like the primer is too thick. Another looks too thin. And as noted, must wait over night for any paint to get stronger. My thinking is that for whatever reason, the surface was too slick and primer didn't have enough time. Primer is also not the same as the finish. Primer sticks but can be scratched off. I thinkt the test should have been after the finish was applied and set up. Only natural that shellac would dry harder than latex/acrylic based primer. Also flashes off faster. Thin shellac, I found also, made me apply thicker coats. 

In this case, the shellac worked for the OP, but I'm still doubting he knew how to use the primer or prep the cabinet surface.


This also brings up a question about the primer. Is the shellac universal? I wouldn't use shellac on large walls, too much splatter and smell, but otherwise, why bother with water based primer (even good brands) on anything else?


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Most every primer has a job that it excels at, the trick is using the correct primer for the job at hand.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I've used latex bonding primers on cabinets similar to what the OP used and have had the same issues even after adequate prep. I have no rhyme or reason to explain it, but it happens and you have to switch to an oil or shellac based primer.

Latex primers have their use. That's what I use on drywall, sometimes bare wood........but, for peace of mind, the oil is going to STICK and stick well. For walls, I rarely use an oil or shellac unless the wall is a high gloss or has stains on it like nicotine, etc.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

carpdad said:


> I still don't get it. One photo looks like the primer is too thick. Another looks too thin. And as noted, must wait over night for any paint to get stronger. My thinking is that for whatever reason, the surface was too slick and primer didn't have enough time. Primer is also not the same as the finish. Primer sticks but can be scratched off. I thinkt the test should have been after the finish was applied and set up. Only natural that shellac would dry harder than latex/acrylic based primer. Also flashes off faster. Thin shellac, I found also, made me apply thicker coats.
> 
> Primer doesnt need to be thick if its only a bonding agent. It doesnt need to be hard.
> 
> ...


In short, solvents are annoying, but necessary.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

Sounds like they're vacuum finished cabinets that aren't wood.

Try a paint for plastic after you take the bad stuff off.


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## jmig7 (Jul 11, 2017)

Dear OP,
Some of advice given is great, some just opinions of an agenda (i.e. Sherman Williams remark- no I dont work for SW but it doesn't help the OP).


1. There seems to be an unanswered question of the original finish oil based vs latex. Either way, its besides the point if your sanding down to bare virgin wood/material its prep work that has been stressed along with taking and even proper painting temp enviroments: DRYING AND CURING are two different scientific processes- poorly used in the industries.
Somthing can be dried but not cured: example clear coats on vehicles vs base coats.



I have always relied on this catalyst product. It has a bonding and etching principal. It is a a spray primer- wont go into the technical benefits of this vs an out of pail product- rolled or brushed on.


Try:



https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/stops-rust/universal-bonding-primer


Read the tds- the will be no issue utilizing latex paint over this primer. 



Cheers.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

As an avid DIY'er who has painted almost everything and has worked for several years in the paint department at Big Orange he are my $0.02.

Prior to doing ANY painting, wash it with clean water and a bit of Dawn dish soap. Use a second bucket to rinse the sponge, cloth rag you are washing the item with. And yes, it must be Dawn as it is a great degreaser, and use gloves to prevent your finger oil from getting on the freshly washed piece. For walls, I use a roller mop. 

Using the same two bucket and glove system, rinse the item. 

One caution though, be careful not to saturate the item to prevent swelling. 

Lightly sand or scuff the item to provide enough tooth for the primer to bind to the surface. Wipe the surface with a lightly damp cloth. 

Shine a strong light at a sharp angle top make sure the surface has no sheen to it. You don't want to see any shiny spots. 

Now you are ready to prep the surface. Fix any damaged areas. Remove any items that you don't can't paired if possible otherwise tape it off. 

If painting wood, like cabinets, make sure it is real wood and not MDF with a vinyl overlay. If wood, sand more thoroughly so it is smooth. Wash it again with Dawn or cleanser of your choice and rinse according to directions. Also consider a deglosser.

If it is a vinyl overlay, ask at the paint counter, or just go grab a spray can of spray primer for plastic/ vinyl. You may want to stick with spray paint for your top coat as well. 

For anything else you are ready for your first coat. Which will ALWAYS be a primer. And I am not talking about paint and primer in one. Primer is around for a reason, it gets the item ready a top coat. If you are painting walls, think about how quick your walls dried when you washed and dried them. They probably ducked in the moisture. Do you want your $50/ gallon of paint to be sucked into the wall the same way? Our would you rather it be a $30/ gallon can of primer? Also, wall primer can be tinted so you can help move the wall color to its final end point. 

Then there's hiding primers. KILZ, ZINZER are two widely known types of them. And they have multiple forms. Latex, oil, shellac, latex modified oil., etc... each had its own purpose. I like to start with the least "harmful" clean-up version first which is latex and then go up from there. In my home, which had severe cigarette odor and pet stains/ odor I went straight to shellac. 

When I painted my word cabinets, I used a random orbit sander in progressive grit from 80 to 320 as they were poorly painted before. After sanding smooth and doing a final cleaning, including vacuuming and using tack rags. It was time to select a primer. I chose a latex bonding primer. I followed the directions on the label, did two coats, sanded between. And let dry overnight. After inspecting them and touching as needed I was ready for the top coat. 

I chose a semi-gloss enamel from Lowe's. It was a latex paint. I know, i know, some of you are saying how can latex be an enamel? Well enamel just means it has to dry to a hard smooth surface that is durable. And this paint fit the bill. Yes, oil paint does lay better but if you do let coats of latex you can accomplish the same thing. 

I used a thin nap roller, sanded between coats and did up to 6/8 coats. I brushed the crevices and grooves first and then smoothed it all out with the roller.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

ktownskier said:


> As an avid DIY'er who has painted almost everything and has worked for several years in the paint department at Big Orange he are my $0.02.
> 
> Prior to doing ANY painting, wash it with clean water and a bit of Dawn dish soap. Use a second bucket to rinse the sponge, cloth rag you are washing the item with. And yes, it must be Dawn as it is a great degreaser, and use gloves to prevent your finger oil from getting on the freshly washed piece. For walls, I use a roller mop.
> 
> ...


Suggesting latex paint from Lowes? Ya lost us all there.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

woodco said:


> Suggesting latex paint from Lowes? Ya lost us all there.



Lost me at Dawn, dawn is so sudsy doesn't rinse clean at all. Detergent not Soap!


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Im a Simple Green man.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

woodco said:


> Im a Simple Green man.



dirtex is the shiz


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

The 6/8 coats did me in.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

The only reason I used paint from Lowe's is that my wife was working there at the time. Otherwise I would have gotten it from Home Depot. When I worked there I dealt with a lot of pros and they agreed with me that Behr was good paint. I do go to a regular paint store at times as I am not a pro, I don't get any discounts. 

Dawn is not a soap, it is a detergent. It has powerful surfactants that release and hold the dirt and grime. As for being too sudsy, you are using too much. And I only use it for the initial clean. Simple green is best as well. Like Dawn, just use very little. You don't want it to foam. Haven't tried the other product mentioned, but he swears by it. If you can find it, find it a try. 

As for the 6 to 8 coats I meant 3 to 4. But hey, if you have the time, like I do as I can no longer work due to a work place injury, then go for it. I also forgot to mention that I used floetrol to thin the paint and make it lay down better. 

Remember, I am writing this from and for an avid DIYers point if view. Not a pros. And I wanted to use items that most people could find. And yes I went beyond the scope of the question by including walls. I did that because most homeowners don't wash and prone their walls before painting them and then wonder why their pant fails. 

I think I responded to all the questions. If not, let me know and I will respond and explain my reasoning.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

ktownskier said:


> The only reason I used paint from Lowe's is that my wife was working there at the time. Otherwise I would have gotten it from Home Depot. When I worked there I dealt with a lot of pros and they agreed with me that Behr was good paint. I do go to a regular paint store at times as I am not a pro, I don't get any discounts.
> 
> Dawn is not a soap, it is a detergent. It has powerful surfactants that release and hold the dirt and grime. As for being too sudsy, you are using too much. And I only use it for the initial clean. Simple green is best as well. Like Dawn, just use very little. You don't want it to foam. Haven't tried the other product mentioned, but he swears by it. If you can find it, find it a try.
> 
> ...


Behr is garbage. Valspars not any better. Pros know this, thats why they go to actual paint stores instead of box stores. You dont need to wash and prime your walls either, unless there is an obviously greasy spot or something. 

Granted the crappy box store latex paints will suffice on walls, but one should absolutely not use them on trim or cabinetry if they care at all about their paint job. Go to a real paint store get some real paint. Its actually cheaper.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

ktownskier said:


> The only reason I used paint from Lowe's is that my wife was working there at the time. Otherwise I would have gotten it from Home Depot. When I worked there I dealt with a lot of pros and they agreed with me that Behr was good paint. I do go to a regular paint store at times as I am not a pro, I don't get any discounts.
> 
> Dawn is not a soap, it is a detergent. It has powerful surfactants that release and hold the dirt and grime. As for being too sudsy, you are using too much. And I only use it for the initial clean. Simple green is best as well. Like Dawn, just use very little. You don't want it to foam. Haven't tried the other product mentioned, but he swears by it. If you can find it, find it a try.
> 
> ...



Oh wow your really batting 1/6 there. I was having a rough morning, your post made me laugh. Really lifted my spirits! Thank!


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

Woodco, what paint do you use? Sherwin Williams? Not even in the top 10 in Consumer Reports latest ratings report. Heck, a paint from Walmart beat it.
Ben Moore? Great paint, made it in the top 5. But, 2, 3, 4 were, gasp, Behr Paints. 

Royal Interiors by Ace? Ding, Ding, Ding. #1. Never used it. Don't wanna

I know, I know. Consumer Reports is geared towards consumers and not Pro's. But then, I am writing from a consumer point of view. 

CoCoMonkeynuts. I am glad that I made you laugh and raised your spirits. 

Someone said that they never washed or primed their walls before painting them. I'll also bet they never washed their exterior siding before painting them either. 

Why not take the few moments and wipe down the walls. You will remove dust, and grime and other contaminants and that will promote adhesion. As for priming the walls, again why not? Most walls are painted every 8-10 years. Drywall dries out and paint contains water so the drywall sucks the paint in and dries faster so it is hard to cut in and roll without leaving banding. 

If you don't believe me, got to a wall in your own house, a closet is a good choice. Take a rag and get it real wet and then wipe it across the wall so some water runs down it. See how quickly the water is sucked in?

This is similar to doing brick, concrete or tile work. Where you need to wet the substrate to prevent the mortar's moisture being sucked out too quickly and you don't get a good bond.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

ktownskier said:


> Woodco, what paint do you use? Sherwin Williams? Not even in the top 10 in Consumer Reports latest ratings report. Heck, a paint from Walmart beat it.
> Ben Moore? Great paint, made it in the top 5. But, 2, 3, 4 were, gasp, Behr Paints.
> 
> Royal Interiors by Ace? Ding, Ding, Ding. #1. Never used it. Don't wanna
> ...



LOL. Just everything. Amazing.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I read the CR article. I was surprised who got in, but wondered about the criteria. In NJ and all stores are not that far, so often I pick the one with best parking.:smile:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

ktownskier said:


> Woodco, what paint do you use? Sherwin Williams? Not even in the top 10 in Consumer Reports latest ratings report. Heck, a paint from Walmart beat it.
> Ben Moore? Great paint, made it in the top 5. But, 2, 3, 4 were, gasp, Behr Paints.
> 
> *Royal Interiors by Ace? Ding, Ding, Ding. #1. Never used it. Don't wanna*



Whew your swinging lower than chris davis. Who do you suppose manufacturers that Ace Royal paint? Surprising the cat pee in a can, marquee, didn't take #1 I guess Behr wrote a smaller check to CR this last round. LOL.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeah, bringing up CR on here is not gonna be an influencer of painters that's for sure. I always find it interesting when a paint from Wal-Mart is rated higher than paint from SW. SW owns the company that makes Wal-Mart's paint. And, those of us who've done this for 20, 30, 40 years know what's good and what's not. I know SW takes a beating on here and elsewhere, but, they have paints that produce great results as does Benjamin Moore and California to name just a couple. For the record, many of us have tried Behr. Heck, I would love it if Behr was da bomb. It's cheaper, more accessible, etc. but, for me, it has produced DISASTROUS results so I avoid Behr like the plague. If I believed what CR said, I would be out of business.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

gymschu said:


> yeah, bringing up cr on here is not gonna be an influencer of painters that's for sure. I always find it interesting when a paint from wal-mart is rated higher than paint from sw. Sw owns the company that makes wal-mart's paint. And, those of us who've done this for 20, 30, 40 years know what's good and what's not. I know sw takes a beating on here and elsewhere, but, they have paints that produce great results as does benjamin moore and california to name just a couple. For the record, many of us have tried behr. Heck, i would love it if behr was da bomb. It's cheaper, more accessible, etc. But, for me, it has produced disastrous results so i avoid behr like the plague. if i believed what cr said, i would be out of business.


really


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## jgiardino89 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hey all, 

After reading all the responses in here (thank you for all the info), My kitchen project is finished. New flooring (with some subfloor repair), painted cabinet with new hardware, and moved a steam radiator (90* to adjacent wall to make room for a sliding door to the exterior).

Before, during, and after pics attached. 

Thanks again!


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## jgiardino89 (Jan 18, 2019)

Just need to put my furniture back, and it'll be all done lol


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Terrific job. :vs_rocking_banana:


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## ScottsPainting (Jan 23, 2019)

jgiardino89 said:


> I prepped everything properly. Degreased, wiped down, sanded, cleaned, and wiped with tac rag.
> 
> The primers that I tried from SW were latex based, I'm guessing that's why they didn't work.


We use Oil primers exclusively for this reason.


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