# "I can't afford to hire a General Contractor" for my project....



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Depends where you live. Also depends on the trade. Why don't you bid the job, not the time and materials scenario? There is a lack of details in the post that makes it hard to answer.
Who's buying the materials? Permits being pulled? How old is the house? The cost of the job isn't simply labor rates.
Ron


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm in north east ohio,I will pay for permits,material,and get material on job site.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

You don't want subs, you want employees.


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

johnrem said:


> I'm in north east ohio,I will pay for permits,material,and get material on job site.


9 times out of ten, its cheaper to hire a GC or a company that does bathrooms. We run into people GC'ing their own projects all the time and they almost always end up getting screwed over by extras and unforeseens that subs need to charge extra for, that the GC would have taken into account. 

We just did some work for a guy doing an addition himself, and he spent thousands more doing it himself than it would have been had he simply hired us to do everything. Not to mention the lack of coordination and responsibility amongst subs


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

I see adds in local paper for these services from self employed guys,and figured I'd give them a shot.I just don't know what a fair pay rate is


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

I gotta think these guys need the work


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## Kingfisher (Nov 19, 2007)

John grab your ankels tight and hold on is the best advise I can give, PKHI hit it on the head.


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

johnrem said:


> I gotta think these guys need the work


Most of those people tend to be a little lacking. Theres a reason why they are in need of the work. Anyone legit is going to need at a minimum $40, $50 + per hour. Electricians plumbers you can double that number.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Johnrem, the guys that you would WANT to work for you do not need the work. The hacks and drunks need the type of work you are talking about.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

johnrem said:


> I see adds in local paper for these services from self employed guys,and figured I'd give them a shot.I just don't know what a fair pay rate is


If you are referring to hiring unskilled labor that is advertising that they will do remodeling work for cheap....then, all I can say is please reconsider it. 
Realize that hiring the cheapest workers that you can find, usually will cost you even more, when you have to hire the properly skilled and qualified people to tear it all out and fix it. 
There's a Canadian TV series that highlights the handy work of such hacks.

Many people make the erroneous assumption that if they supply all the materials, that it will take 75% off the overall costs. The reality is that labor costs are the majority of any project. In addition, busy and successful contractors get discounts on their material purchases that the average home owners cannot obtain.

Unfortunately, when someone dangles the carrot (in front of the horse) that they are supplying all the materials for the job, the workers you most often attract, are the ones that don't have/can't get the the money to purchase the materials, can't get the credit to, can't show their face in a supply house, etc... (the "cream of society")...

Buyer beware....shopper beware.....


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

well no, I'm not looking for the cheapest.just what is fair for someone who is professional and will do a good job.Looks like 40 to 50 bucks per hour is the number for someone to show up and strap on the tools.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

The "title" of the original post ..... is erroneous....
...It should read: "I can't afford to hire a General Contractor" for my project....


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> The "title" of the original post ..... is erroneous....
> ...It should read: "I can't afford to hire a General Contractor" for my project....


I think someone needs to follow up with "you cant afford not to hire a general contractor"


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> The "title" of the original post ..... is erroneous....
> ...It should read: "I can't afford to hire a General Contractor" for my project....



I changed the title.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

can't blame a guy for trying to save a buck.besides I can do some of the work myself,which I enjoy.Gut out,hang drywall,paint,and finish trim.can you say sweat equity? I just can't do it all and I'm willing to pay good people good money.I'm just looking for fair amount for quality job.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Ron the plumber,for instance.How much per hour for you or one of your guys to rough in my bath?


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

johnrem said:


> Ron the plumber,for instance.How much per hour for you or one of your guys to rough in my bath?


See the whole by the hour thing that where all you homeowner wanna be mr builder types go wrong. BID THE JOB, say "Ron how much TOTAL for you to rough my bathroom based on the given conditions" And don't jerk him around and show up with all goofy HO parts from homedepot


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

material already on site.just need somebody to do it right.I will NOT pay travel costs to ohio. sorry.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

johnrem said:


> Ron the plumber,for instance.How much per hour for you or one of your guys to rough in my bath?


One I can't answer on a forum, I can't visit the job site, I have no plans, details play a vital role in pricing.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Funny thing is that people have no idea what the hourly rate goes to. They think it all goes into our pockets. They don't realize the costs of running an actual company:

Gas
Vehicle maintenance (or multi-vehicle)
Tool and equipment maintenance
advertising (if it's done)
Uniforms
Vehicle insurance
Liability insurance
Workman's comp. (We have to pay about $19.00 per every $100.00 we pay a worker - carpentry)
Additional insurances
Licensing
Certification
Continual education
State charges
Adminstrative: Copying, paper, accounting, stamps, envelops, etc.
Office/storage buildings (if there are)
Etc, etc, etc...

These expenses are one of the things that can seperate the professionals from the hacks (who work out of their car trunks/station wagons), and their cheap prices...


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Well Ron,Iwouldn't hold you to it , and it's not likely you would take a job in Ohio.Just looking for a ballpark figure to give me an idea as to what to expect,considering the terms I laid out.Only one poster put actual numbers out there and thats all I'm looking for.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm good with that,ATL.Figure it in if thats what it takes.I'm not looking to rip anyone off.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

johnrem said:


> Well Ron,Iwouldn't hold you to it , and it's not likely you would take a job in Ohio.Just looking for a ballpark figure to give me an idea as to what to expect,considering the terms I laid out.Only one poster put actual numbers out there and thats all I'm looking for.


Considering I don't do T&M for rough plumbing and I won't do it with owner supplied material, 3 to 4 thousand.

Good Luck on your project.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

you forgot all the hours you spend giving free estamates and figuring jobs.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Considering I don't do T&M for rough plumbing and I won't do it with owner supplied material, 3 to 4 thousand.
> 
> Good Luck on your project.


That's about right,

Our two plumbers both charge around $3500.00 +, with materials, for the average bathroom remodel.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Ron, per hour?Well your off the list.I think you included travel.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

ok ,atl,that sounds about right.How long does it take them?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

johnrem said:


> ok ,atl,that sounds about right.How long does it take them?


That's irrelevant, if it takes them a day or two or a week, that's why there is a bid given, once you accept, that's what it will be, regardless on how long it takes, it gets done, the correct way, up to code, you get a 1 year warranty, your happy, the GC and subs are happy, you move on in life.


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## Frank Steele (Jan 14, 2008)

Look on Craig's list to assemble your want something for nothing crew. I am sure the finish product will be impeccable.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

johnrem said:


> .....How long does it take them?


Answer: However long it the job takes....


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

I think two guys two days is safe to assume for an average bathroom romodel,so 3500.00 div. by 32 =109.38 per hour...about what the earlier poster estmated.Pretty good for a turd chaser . Just an idea is all I'm looking for,not a rock bottom cheap amount.You guys seem to try to keep it a secret.I am willing to pay good money to a good man.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Turd Chaser? Be prepared for some backlash.
:whistling2: 

2 guys two days? What do you base this knowledge on?

The "zero" bathrooms that you have renovated? 

BTW - Your arithmatic is wrong, there is more time involved than that. Do you think the plumbing parts magically show up on their own at the work site? Do you think that the permits magically appear, all filled out, too? Or that the Building Inspector fairy appears and signs off with no one around?...among the other things that happen off the job site.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

lol..just kidding.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

diyer,why is it assumed that I want something for nothing?


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

slang for plumber...OH,have you heard about the queer electron?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

:whistling2: .

I'm done with this thread.


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

If you know enough to get the material, figure out rates, etc ..... do it yourself.
Your just another cheap tire kicker just stirrin' up things ... lookin for some drunk to tell you he can do this job for $12.00/hr ...
Owner supplied material .... right ... they are standining in line to do this project ...


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

man you guys are harsh.I'llpay 100.00an hour for the plumber ,if he's a good plumber.I said earlier that I'll get permits,material,ect.I just want the guy to show up and strap on the tools .I don't expect him to work like a mad man either .just git ur done.If you ask me that sounds like a pretty good gig.dude is garenteed his cash.what is everyone afraid of.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

my original title,which someone changed,was an attention getter,with a little humor.didn't mean any disrespect.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

You have to understand that this is a Do It Yourself help site, affiliated with a contractor site that provides support here. Sometimes, the best advice that can be given is, "let the professionals do it". Basically, that is the situation you are in trying to be a General Contractor for your project.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

As an example. The first time you meet with a plumber to disucss the project and call him a "turd-chaser", you will either be knocked on your ass or given a 50% ********************* surcharge on your bid.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

What you are looking for is some wino who has read the instructions on a tin of pipe glue while he was pouring it into the bag to snort it. He will work for you by the hour!


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

johnrem said:


> Pretty good for a turd chaser .


I'm sorry I even replied to this thread now, one tries to give good advice and you get no respect.


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## Frank Steele (Jan 14, 2008)

Is this the crazy fiberglass paranoid womans husband?


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## Kingfisher (Nov 19, 2007)

What makes you so sure you even have the right parts for the plumber, the expert a HD sold you the complete package LOL. John you took a post that had some merit and ran it into the ground with guys who will help when they can. As I said before just grab your ankles, I have done this long enough to know that you are full of it and looking for the job done cheap. Read back through every thing and try to glean a little wisdom


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## Frank Steele (Jan 14, 2008)

When you have to have a heart bypass buy all the sutures, gauze, staples, sternum splitter, scalpels, rent your own heart lung machine, then shop for a surgeon on the cheap for labor only.

:brows:


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## Frank Steele (Jan 14, 2008)

Okay, enough humor. 

If you want to be the contractor on your home project that is fine. First try to have a clear idea and design of what you want the finish result to be.

Next you need to get at least three estimates from the different trades you will need to complete the project. Make sure you get references from the chosen contractors you are weighing toward hiring.

If you are looking to hire skilled labor on the cheap you are playing Russian Roulette!


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

johnrem said:


> man you guys are harsh.I'llpay 100.00an hour for the plumber ,if he's a good plumber.I said earlier that I'll get permits,material,ect.I just want the guy to show up and strap on the tools .I don't expect him to work like a mad man either .just git ur done.If you ask me that sounds like a pretty good gig.dude is garenteed his cash.what is everyone afraid of.


Here's the point. Suppose you agree to 100 per hour. And the guy is done in 5 hours. 

Think $500.00 is enough?

You don't get someone to bid on a job, per hour. If you're hiring a full time employee, you can discuss hourly terms. 

I got 3 quotes for leaf raking my property 150.00, 175.00 and 150.00. I did not ask how much per hour or how many men it will involve, just get rid of all the leaves. They showed up with a huge truck mounted vaccuum and were done in 2 hours. Did I pay 2 guys 75.00 an hour?


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

dyier said:


> Is this the crazy fiberglass paranoid womans husband?


You're killing me! :laughing:


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Well,one strait foward question from a diy'er looking for a little help,witch he is willing to pay for,in a diy chat room,and 50 posts later only one poster,pkhi,was willing to give a rearonable answer.No wonder the general public tends to distrust residential contractors.I think pkhi would be the only one here I would be willing to hire,not because of his "cheap" rates,but because of his attempt to answer my Question.Most of the rest seemed defensive ,evasive, and distrustful of me.To me, those are red flags of the kind people I do not want to deal with.Frankly I'm a little suprised it was this difficult to get my question answered honestly.


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## Kingfisher (Nov 19, 2007)

Jhon, after ron and PKHI first two answers there was nothing else for the rest of us to say, you kept adding fuel to the fire and the rest of us enjoyed the flames LOL From your posts I really think you are over your head and going to get a poor bath remodel, you are going to pay too much, it will take to long, and things will have to be redone. What most guys told you is bid the job not hire by the hour and get one comany to do the whole thing. Good Luck


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks king,but there are just too many things I can do myself,i enjoy doing them ,and I am very good at the things I do.I will gut out the room.I will hang the drywall,I will paint ,I will do the tile,I will do the woodwork,and I will set the fixtures(toilet,sink,faucets ect.).I don't think many contractors want to fool with that.I just need a few experts to handle the things I can't.I know my limits.


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

none of us can tell you what some one else would cost. each contractor has their own price scale . depending on over head and complex of job ect... and most of us won't put that info on the web. we give indvidual bids on site ,with customer. the old saying "if you gotta ask , you probably can't afford " when doing a project , get two or three quotes ,then choose


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

johnrem said: "Well,one strait foward question from a diy'er looking for a little help"

Sorry, but that's not an accurate accessment of the post. You are not doing the bath yourself, you're GC ing the job and asking simplistic questions. You're understanding of contractors and their cost is incorrect. You're assigning a day laborer label ,incorrectly, to a contractor.
Instead of getting actual quotes from tradesman in your area, you're wasting time with a theoretical discussion on the internet. And while you're happy with what might be artificial cost figures, it gets you no closer to the reality of your specific job. Having someone actually look at the job, with it's own specifics, will give you a more accurate assessment of the other component, time. Just because a carpenter charges ,for arguements sake, $60.00 an hour, doesn't tell you the actual cost of the work unless he accesses the time. Then adds overhead and profit. While this , at the end of the job, will give you your hourly rate, that number varies with the job.
I'll repeat this because you've seemed to missed it a few times in this lengthy soujourne;
Call local contractors.
Oh, and those quotes don't include problems hidden behind walls or under floors.
Ron


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

What I don't get is,I would think a guy would jump at the chance to work hourly for a good price.No cash out for materials and no worries about time overruns.But from what I gather,that guy doesn't exist.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Ok John

How much should it cost? You tell us.


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## Kingfisher (Nov 19, 2007)

John now you sound like a DIY, the first post you made it sound like you wanted to hire a different tradesman to do every step of the project now you just need a little help with a few things, big diference LOL There are small one man plumbers and the like that will do that but you have to find the right one. Here in tampa my plumber will do that for $75 per hour, but here again you're not provinding alot of reason to do the job quickly, get all the framing started and call a few in with all the parts/choices made and bid it out


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

All I got so far is 40-50+ per hour,at least double that for plumber/electrician.seems reasenable,maybe even low,but that is only reply I got.The rest are either unwilling or unable to answer the question as I asked it.I understand about hiring a gc and saying out of the way.Good advice,but not what I asked.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

thanks king.That sounds like a great price.don't let that guy get away.No real hurry.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Ok so you want the answers.

At $100 per hour two day 10 hours a day 2000 up front, now you don't have all the parts needed, now you need to make trips to town, not one but several trips, you get to the HD and the parts I need they don't have, your searching all over, your adding time to by bill, say 4 hours, now your at 2400, ok now you set a floor joint right dead smack in the middle of my closet flange, time to wait for you to get that right, 4 more hours, 2800. 

This what you will be looking at during all this.

Are you getting the picture now, or am I just a trud buster?


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

ok,100 per hour is good.why assume worst case scenario into the mix.you may have had things go bad in the past,but I will handle that part...that turd buster comment was just a joke.don't take it personal.


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## kgphoto (Dec 2, 2007)

Johnrem,

What you may be getting confused on is the following term differences.

Bid
T&M
Labor only.

No "contractor" is going to work for labor only. He has to do more each day than just make payroll, as he has expenses that occur whether he works or not. As such, he doesn't have a labor only charge figured out. You may be able to get a tradesman(one who works for another company) to take it on as a side job. Maybe he is qualified, maybe not. It would save you money on his labor rate, but may cost you more in the long run, due to inefficiency, errors and lack of experience.

So they might be willing to do the job T&M which is a labor rate, plus materials plus an overhead and profit figure which is typically 10 & 10 (%). 

Most contractors want to use their own materials because they know they are the right size and quantity for the job, not because of the mark up they make on them. Their business still requires the markup even if you supply them, so they have to do that odd figuring too. by using their own materials they have control over how long the job takes. 

If you buy the wrong thing, or run out, they have to wait. Now you will pay them more money, but you may hold up their next job, damaging the profit they will earn there.

So there are a lot of factors to think about to figure out the correct price for something that is uncommon.

Most contractors want to come out and see the job, and then give you a price to do it. If it is easier than they thought, they make out, if harder, they lose. If unforeseen stuff shows up, it is added as a change order.

A guy who normally bills out his time in his usual process at $100 per hour, may need to bill out at $150 or $200 to make it worthwhile. They will have a hard time figuring out that number and so they will lowball it, have a bad experience and lose money and then be reluctant to do it again.

If you want to use insurance company rates, the plumbers and electricians are $90 per hour, and carpenters, $65 and laborers $45 plus the 10 and 10 I was talking about. You pay from when they show up and start talking with you and stop when they are done.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

johnrem said:


> What I don't get is,I would think a guy would jump at the chance to work hourly for a good price.No cash out for materials and no worries about time overruns.But from what I gather,that guy doesn't exist.


You're confusing day laborers from contractors.
Ron


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks kg photo.that makes sense.especially about delays holding up next job.I'm gonna guess insurance rates are kind of low.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

The only time I charge by the hour is troubleshooting.
Everything else is a price guideline I have on how long it should take me for a given task.
The bid would be for the total job, with materials,except light fixtures.


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## kgphoto (Dec 2, 2007)

Insurance rates and estimates are very confusing ball of was. Low is a good guess.

Your best bet, would be to ask local guys to come and give you bids. They would want the room stripped so they can see what they are getting into and then see a set of plans and specifications drawn by you. If the plans are crappy, then they won't want to waste time with you, cause if you can't get it right on paper, you won't be able to build it. Get three bids, and then check references and then make your choice. Most will give you a a set price to do the work. Make sure the plumber will do both the rough and trim, but realize if you put on too much wall covering and change the depths, you will have to eat the re-work costs.


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## Frank Steele (Jan 14, 2008)

Give this guy a call, I bet he is reasonable!










:laughing:


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

johnrem said:


> What I don't get is,I would think a guy would jump at the chance to work hourly for a good price.No cash out for materials and no worries about time overruns. But from what I gather,that guy doesn't exist.


That guy doesn't exist for good reason. Your thinking is wrong. If you asked me to do the electric, I'd give you a price. I am not going to discuss hours, because the faster I work, the less I'd make, which defeats the purpose of contractiong in the first place.

You don't get to hire me on an hourly basis, you're not an employer. Although you're tackling much of the work yourself, you seem to think that what's left beyond your skillset is worth peanuts. In effect, the part of the job requiring the most skill and knowledge is being diminished in value.


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Again you are misunderstanding me.I never implied that I don't want to pay a fair amount for the work.I should say that someone changed the title of my thread because he mistakenly assumed the same thing.I have no intention of diminishing your value.I want to pay a man what he is worth.It seems that it must be impossible for most contractors to set a hourly rate.I don't blame you.I bet that when a customer looks at their own (ex.25.00 hour factory pay) and then see contractor rates at 100.00 per hour and up,they are flabergasted.But just maybe,some of your customers understand your true value and are willing to pay it.That was all I was trying to find out in the first place.Just because I asked this question,I think it was unfair to assume I am a cheap skate trying to rip off or insult the contractor.


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

well you bring up an interesting point , you are trying to compare working in a factory to being a contractor. I personally do both. My factory job doesn't require any real special skills , so I'm paid $28.00 per hr. , How ever my Building business requires me to know , estimating, codes, how to build, book keeping , managment ect.... so I'm paid much more . Knowledge isn't cheap . Perhaps since you are obviously lacking knowledge enough to post here, your better option would be to invest in more knowledge . After you do that then you will understand where we contractors are coming from.:thumbup:


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## johnrem (Feb 7, 2008)

Wow.you still don't listen.I NEVER said contractors arn't worth the money they demand. I simply asked that if you could convert that to an hourly rate, what would it be.I understand many varyables go into it and most contractors refuse to work that way.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Ok john we gave you all the info we could give, your best bet is to get bids local, as many as you fell will work, then you can do the math and figure it for yourself, this thread has gone no where fast.

It is now closed.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Thank You RON !!


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