# Methods for running ground wire



## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

In some of my bedrooms, I have some plugs that do not have grounds. Currently they're wired with 12/2 nm w/o ground.

So, I want to run some a ground wire from one plug to another.

We are getting new baseboards, so I was wondering if it is ok to run the 12g green wire in the gap between the sole plate and flooring - you know, right under the bottom edge of the wall's drywall? It should be safe from any kind of reasonably foreseeable damage down there.

Is this ok to do?

thanks,
Erik


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

No. The ground must be included in a single cable. You must replace the complete cable if you want grounded receptacles.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

J. V. said:


> No. The ground must be included in a single cable. You must replace the complete cable if you want grounded receptacles.


250.130(c) suggests otherwise, but I might be misreading it. Is this a South Carolina thing? I'm in California, if that matters.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

erikhaugen said:


> In some of my bedrooms, I have some plugs that do not have grounds. Currently they're wired with 12/2 nm w/o ground.
> 
> So, I want to run some a ground wire from one plug to another.
> 
> ...


Inphase277 answered this question on this forum that another poster asked.

Wood chars at 120C 
http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html#2.1.1
and some Romex is allowed to go to 90C so 30C of headroom seems to be OK.

Re: the NEC, how long is a ground wire required to carry fault current of what magnitude?

Does someone make flat, insulated or uninsulated ground conductors for this purpose? A flat conductor of the same cross section as #12 would have hardly any temp. rise.

I suppose the OP could also cobble together hollow baseboards from standard lumberyard trim that could hide a cable.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Inphase277 answered this question on this forum that another poster asked.
> 
> Wood chars at 120C
> http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html#2.1.1
> ...


I can't find the thread with you and Inphase277 - is it ok to run it there?


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> I suppose the OP could also cobble together hollow baseboards from standard lumberyard trim that could hide a cable.


I don't think this is necessary - there really is plenty of room between the flooring and sole plate underneath the sheetrock. I just don't know if it's ok to run it that way, or if I have to cut notches in the studs and use nail plates or what. The notches/nail plate strategy would be a *lot* more work and I personally can't see how it would be any better.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

You can't legally do it. 

The profesionals install GFCI breakers/receptacles which then allows the use of grounded recep on a 2 wire system. There is still no ground wire but the danger of a ground fault is eliminated via this _backdoor_ method.

It will also be a lot easier than stringing ground wires all over.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

220/221 said:


> You can't legally do it.


Again, 250.130(c) suggests otherwise, and I've heard a lot of pros talk about running grounds through walls, etc. In fact, I just passed an inspection where I had a 12g green wire running through holes in the studs, all on its own. Is this a new rule?



220/221 said:


> The profesionals install GFCI breakers/receptacles which then allows the use of grounded recep on a 2 wire system. There is still no ground wire but the danger of a ground fault is eliminated via this _backdoor_ method.
> 
> It will also be a lot easier than stringing ground wires all over.


I know about gfi in lieu of ground, but it does not protect equipment like a real ground would do. Easiness is not the issue - I'm willing to do the work and I think it's worth it; I just don't know if it's ok to run the ground wire alongside the sole plate.

-Erik


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

erikhaugen said:


> I know about gfi in lieu of ground, but it does not protect equipment like a real ground would do.


Dunno' if it's OK to run it that way. I guess we could vote on it but I'm recused because I don't know the NEC.

The ground wire and the GFCI are to protect people, and CBs are to protect wiring; equipment is on its own, except for built-in thermal overloads, fuses and PTC devices.

I can't make an argument for ground wires being better than GFCIs, or the inverse. A plausible prima facie view is that GFCIs are less reliable because they are more complex than a wire but I don't have data on this.

With 1300 people out of 300 M being electrocuted each yr in the US, this is down in the noise, in any case. Highway fatalities are 40 K/yr, smoking is 1 K/day.


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## Salem747 (Oct 16, 2009)

Do you have your walls open? Are you planning to fishtape the ground to the boxes? The best solution (it is more work) is to buy a $50 roll of loomex and run 14/2 with a proper ground. If you do have some of the walls open I would say do it right and replace the old stuff and never worry about it again. I noticed on the last roll I bought a month or so ago that they pre-lube it now too, makes it really easy to pull.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> The ground wire and the GFCI are to protect people, and CBs are to protect wiring; equipment is on its own, except for built-in thermal overloads, fuses and PTC devices.
> 
> I can't make an argument for ground wires being better than GFCIs, or the inverse. A plausible prima facie view is that GFCIs are less reliable because they are more complex than a wire but I don't have data on this.
> 
> With 1300 people out of 300 M being electrocuted each yr in the US, this is down in the noise, in any case. Highway fatalities are 40 K/yr, smoking is 1 K/day.


A ground protects equipment in ways that a gfi alone does not. I'm assuming this is why the sticker that says "no equipment ground" is required if you have a 3 prong socket that is only protected by GFI.

I can't give a technical explanation, sorry, but this is the case.

I was going to just do the GFI thing and forget about it, but I thought here's an opportunity while I have the baseboards off...


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Salem747 said:


> Do you have your walls open? Are you planning to fishtape the ground to the boxes? The best solution (it is more work) is to buy a $50 roll of loomex and run 14/2 with a proper ground. If you do have some of the walls open I would say do it right and replace the old stuff and never worry about it again. I noticed on the last roll I bought a month or so ago that they pre-lube it now too, makes it really easy to pull.


My walls are not open. If they were I would just be replacing the romex with brand new 12/2+ground, re-using the holes in the studs and I wouldn't have started this thread 

I was planning to fish the ground to the boxes - not using "fishtape" though, probably just another scrap of 12g. I was going to cut a small hole in the drywall by the floor directly under the plug. Then fish a ground wire from the floor into the wall and into the box. There is no insulation, so I'm expecting this to be relatively easy. The new baseboard will cover up the hole. 

I can't run 14/2, I would have to use 12/2.

Ok - pulling a new wire (with ground) through the same course that the old wire is running would be great. But - how do I do it? I can't just pull the wire through, it is stapled in at least 2 places. The lube or lack thereof is the _least_ of my problems! Whatever electrician worked for the builders got a bit carried away with the staples...


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

_*250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. 
*The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: 

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 

(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor 

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates 

(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure 

(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

FPN: See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle._


250.130 addresses *where to connect* to the grounding electrode system but doesn't talk about *how to get there*. I will retract my statement but reserve the right to change back when someone points to another article addressing wiring methods. :laughing:


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

Seriously, what do you need a ground for in your bedroom? 95% of household appliances have 2 prong plugs anyways.:yes:

If you have a piece of equipment that should have a ground (such as a computer) then run a new circuit for that and forget about the rest.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

junkcollector said:


> Seriously, what do you need a ground for in your bedroom? 95% of household appliances have 2 prong plugs anyways.:yes:
> 
> If you have a piece of equipment that should have a ground (such as a computer) then run a new circuit for that and forget about the rest.


Most likely computers. My wife's laptop cable had a 3 prong plug for some reason, so it was always kind of annoying for her. We use one bedroom as an "office," so I'm pretty sure we're going to want a ground wire in there for a surge protector to put a printer/computer on. Etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, so in those cases we could run new circuits, and originally that was my plan. But, I was thinking with the baseboards off right now it would be really easy to get these guys done, and just have all my plugs properly grounded.

Another issue is when you go to sell the house, the inspector always points out how ghetto the electrical system is because all the plugs are 2-prong. Just one more thing that looks bad.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

>>> ... ARE ...

I recently saw a picture (posted on this board? and presumably taken from a handyman's book) showing the ground wire attached to the green screw on the receptacle unit and (using words I wrote once) brought out to the wall surface and run exposed (unconcealed) along the baseboards and up and around doorways and approximating the route of the ungrounded in-wall cables from the receptacle in question to the panel.

This avoid having to fish anything or actually crawl into crawl spaces but does not help if you are preparing the house for sale soon.

More often seen is a ground wire daisy chained between pieces of electronic equipment, bonded using screws that reach the respective chassis, and connected to a known ground that could sometimes be a baseboard radiator or the screw that holds a receptacle cover on.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

HouseHelper said:


> You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.


Thanks - any thoughts about whether it is ok to run the ground wire between the sole plate and the flooring, under the wall's sheetrock? ie, the wire would be lower than the top of the flooring surface, there is roughly a 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch "tunnel" here that would not be nailed through.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Issue of application of NEC*



erikhaugen said:


> 250.130(c) suggests otherwise, but I might be misreading it. Is this a South Carolina thing? I'm in California, if that matters.


NEC is the National Electrical Code. It's not a State Code. But the application (what year. i.e. 2008. Or an earlier version) depends on on the local or regional AHJ. (Authority Having Jurisdiction) Plus the requirements of the Utility (POCO. Power company) serving the area! Eliminate Confusion:yes::no: Through Education; :drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

erikhaugen said:


> Thanks - any thoughts about whether it is ok to run the ground wire between the sole plate and the flooring, under the wall's sheetrock? ie, the wire would be lower than the top of the flooring surface, there is roughly a 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch "tunnel" here that would not be nailed through.


This issue must have come up before. I'm surprised at the difference of opinions. 
Does this mean nobody is sure whether it's safe or not, or that there are other, non-safety, considerations?
Maybe what is "good practice" or not, drives this decision.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> This issue must have come up before. I'm surprised at the difference of opinions.
> Does this mean nobody is sure whether it's safe or not, or that there are other, non-safety, considerations?
> Maybe what is "good practice" or not, drives this decision.


It's kind of funny, I am having a _really_ hard time getting my question answered. I even asked on another similar forum. Even among people who know what they're talking about and believe it is permissible to run a lone ground between outlets, nobody will take a stand on whether it is ok to run it where I want to run it. I'm assuming such experts would have no problem with me notching the studs and using nail plates, but if that's what I have to do then it probably isn't worth it at this point. I guess I'll call the city; probably the best move anyway in cases where it isn't clear-cut to folks in forums like this.

thanks!
-erik


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

erikhaugen said:


> I guess I'll call the city; probably the best move anyway in cases where it isn't clear-cut to folks in forums like this.


You would help a lot of people if you got their answer in writing, and the basis for their answer, and posted back.

Plausible bases for their decision:
safety
good practice
politics
Unjust Enrichment
other

The first one can be scientifically determined to some level of certainty, as can Matters of Fact. Matters of Value or Matters of Opinion you can forget about ever resolving.

What gets me is that this particular question and its answer are not exactly rocket science.

I guess another outcome is that this grounding method is very dangerous in some situations and completely harmless in others, and nobody really knows why because it comes up so rarely that no one wants to investigate it on their dime. 
Or, maybe some grad student has published a paper on this in one of the IEEE journals but the AHJs are waffling on adapting it.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1617974


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> You would help a lot of people if you got their answer in writing, and the basis for their answer, and posted back.
> 
> Plausible bases for their decision:
> safety
> ...


I doubt I will ever get anything in writing, unfortunately. Whatever I get will probably just be the whim of whoever answers my questions at the city.

I don't think this paper has anything to do with my situation.

I'm essentially 100% convinced that there are no safety issues with my plan. The wire will be protected, etc. Running grounds on their own is not problematic in the same way as, say, running the neutral and the hot wires separately. etc... I'm just wondering if there are some kind of code issues with putting it alongside the sheetrock vs. behind the sheetrock as one normally would. I'm a little fuzzy on where is it ok to run wiring, so I want to make sure I do it right before I do it.


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## Piedmont (Nov 1, 2007)

Not to point out the obvious just make sure your outlets aren't already grounded. My house had 2 prong outlets, built in the 60's. All the wires are surrounded by armor and all the boxes were metal, and all bonded to my breaker panel so everything was grounded by the armor surrounding the wire. I only needed to swap out the 2 prong outlets for 3 prong and everything passed proper grounding. NEC doesn't require a ground wire either between switches/recepts placed in metal boxes that have armored cable clamped properly and are grounded through the armor because they will be grounded by the screws and metal touching the box. Things get a little more tricky when it's newer work using existing armored wiring and a plastic box. I'm not going there. 

I don't think they care how ground gets there. My outdoor TV antenna is required to be bonded to my breaker panel so I had to run one single grounding wire through my house to do it so sometimes you have to run a seperate grounding wire. 

Just make sure you don't have armored wire (My house had BX like the top wire in the picture http://z.about.com/d/homerenovations/1/0/d/1/-/-/bxwiring.JPG) and aren't already grounded. It was relief for me to find out I was properly grounded all along and just needed to swap out recepts :yes: Plug in one line of a test light into the recept and the other end touch the screw see if it goes on, or use a multimeter.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Why do you guys do this to me???? I'm trying to fish....remember?


Question one....what is the hazard of doing this ground wire outside of the cable or raceway containing the circuit conductors??

Answer... little hazard or at least very minimal. The worry is an issue with impedance. Circuit conductors produce a magnetic field. By running the equipment grounding conductor within the same conduit or cable this forces near complete cancellation of that magnetic field between the egc and the circuit conductor. The result is lower impedance for the effective fault path which improves the speed at which the circuit breaker will open in the event of a fault.

Question 2... How you run the equipment ground wire to any of the places specified in 250.130(C) is in accordance with art.300. So just protect it from driven nails or physical damage and support it where necessary. Use the correct clamp at any electrode used etc... How you get there with a non current carrying wire is up to you.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

HouseHelper said:


> You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.


 
Heres what I found. 300.3 (B) does reference the above articles. But, I am still saying no. No separate conductor. The OP's circumstance looks like it is not applicable to any exceptions.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

There is some marginal benefit in running a ground wire with other conductors as far as presenting "a good ground" for the high frequencies that a lightning strike would inject into your house wiring.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Stubbie said:


> Why do you guys do this to me???? I'm trying to fish....remember?
> 
> 
> Question one....what is the hazard of doing this ground wire outside of the cable or raceway containing the circuit conductors??
> ...


Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. 



Stubbie said:


> Question 2... How you run the equipment ground wire to any of the places specified in 250.130(C) is in accordance with art.300. So just protect it from driven nails or physical damage and support it where necessary. Use the correct clamp at any electrode used etc... How you get there with a non current carrying wire is up to you.


This makes it sound like my plan is ok.

thanks,
Erik


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. Explicit permission is given in 300.3(B) to run a separate egc in accordance with 250.130(C) when installing replacement grounding type receptacles or extending a non grounded branch circuit to a grounding type receptacle when no equipment grounding wire or means is available in the branch circuit. This is exactly what the OP is asking. 

This is allowed for replacement of non grounding type receptacles served with a wiring method that doesn't include an equipment grounding means. All the exceptions apply to the OPs circumstances. In his first post he makes it clear he has no equipment ground having receptacles served by 12/2 nm without ground. This is exactly why they wrote 250.130(C). He is fine to do what he is asking.


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## erikhaugen (Oct 22, 2009)

Stubbie said:


> I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. Explicit permission is given in 300.3(B) to run a separate egc in accordance with 250.130(C) when installing replacement grounding type receptacles or extending a non grounded branch circuit to a grounding type receptacle when no equipment grounding wire or means is available in the branch circuit. This is exactly what the OP is asking.
> 
> This is allowed for replacement of non grounding type receptacles served with a wiring method that doesn't include an equipment grounding means. All the exceptions apply to the OPs circumstances. In his first post he makes it clear he has no equipment ground having receptacles served by 12/2 nm without ground. This is exactly why they wrote 250.130(C). He is fine to do what he is asking.


great! thanks. This is what I was assuming originally; thanks for reassuring me after the doubts raised here!

My question was is it ok to run the single green 12g wire in between the sole plate and the flooring, under the edge of the wall's sheetrock? So it will be lower than the top of the flooring, in that little 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch gap. If ok to do, this will be easy for me since we are replacing the baseboards anyway.

thanks!


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

erikhaugen said:


> great! thanks. This is what I was assuming originally; thanks for reassuring me after the doubts raised here!
> 
> My question was is it ok to run the single green 12g wire in between the sole plate and the flooring, under the edge of the wall's sheetrock? So it will be lower than the top of the flooring, in that little 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch gap. If ok to do, this will be easy for me since we are replacing the baseboards anyway.
> 
> thanks!


 If you can run a separate wire to ground the receptacles, why not do it right and pull new cables. Your exception may be valid.
What does the AHJ say about this project. I believe this is where you will find out if it allowed or not. We all know the AHJ has authority over the NEC.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I see no code violation in doing what your asking. You can fish that ground wire anywhere you want as long as it is free from physical damage. I don't think it's going to get damaged at the sill plate. Rodents sometimes chew wire but that is not easily prevented.

In accordance to 250. 130 (C) Where do you plan on terminating it?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

(going around to the other side of the dead horse to continue beating it)

>>> ... all circuit conductors must be grouped together ...

My cursory look about the Internet tonight leads me to conclude that the ground wire (grounding conductor) is not a "circuit conductor"; we all know it does not normally carry current.

Back to the topic at hand, I would just merely go right ahead and run the ground wire in the channel between the lower edge of the drywall and the subfloor if that were convenient. This channel is very unlikely to be penetrated by nails.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

erikhaugen said:


> It's kind of funny, I am having a _really_ hard time getting my question answered. I even asked on another similar forum. Even among people who know what they're talking about and believe it is permissible to run a lone ground between outlets, nobody will take a stand on whether it is ok to run it where I want to run it. I'm assuming such experts would have no problem with me notching the studs and using nail plates, but if that's what I have to do then it probably isn't worth it at this point. I guess I'll call the city; probably the best move anyway in cases where it isn't clear-cut to folks in forums like this.
> 
> thanks!
> -erik


It (all) depends on your geographic location. Also, on what kind of lunch that particular inspector had. I'm not trying to be facetious. But there appear to be contradictory answers in the NEC. On the one hand, it appears that it is permissible to run a (supplemental; not really supplemental. Because that would create a potential parallel path to ground.) wire to the grounding rod. On the other hand, it appears that All the conductors must be in one cable. It must be well researched to see all the exceptions. (No matter what) :yes::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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