# Large Clumps of Fiberglass coming out of concrete



## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

Home project problem #2. 

I had my driveway and RV pad poured yesterday by xxxxxxx. When the truck arrived the concrete contractor added what I counted to be five small bags, he claimed it was seven, of fiberglass to the 9 yards of concrete on the truck. He had the driver mix it for a couple minutes and when they started to pour the fiberglass came out in large clumps. He had it mixed more. They then poured and you could still see clumps of fiberglass in the concrete. Today I was able to pull out a baseball size clump of fiberglass out of the dried concrete, I have pictures. You could still see clumps near the end of the pour. I asked the contractor about my concerns and he insisted that it was ok and he wanted to fix the hole in the concrete where I pulled out the fiberglass. I told him not to fix the hole, I wanted the inspector to see them, but he insisted he was not going to leave it that way. I told him not to fix them. 
Should I worry about this job?

I paid the contractor for a 6" driveway and pad for an RV next to our Mobile home. I measured the depth using a string and tape-measure and it was only 4-1/2" in most of the slab. We discussed before I agreed that 6 inches was a minimum of 5-1/2". I confronted the contractor and he had his guys dig some but it was never what we agreed upon. He found one spot that was 6 inches and said see it averages out. 

He also used what looked like a pump mix concrete with very tiny rocks. I have never seen this done in a slab before but my experience with concrete is limited. 

This was one hard working guy. Had he done what we agreed upon I would have worked to recommend him. He was NOT the low bidder on the job. We used him because he was recommended.


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## stonecutter (May 23, 2014)

6273909 said:


> Home project problem #2.
> 
> I had my driveway and RV pad poured yesterday by xxxxxxxx. When the truck arrived the concrete contractor added what I counted to be five small bags, he claimed it was seven, of fiberglass to the 9 yards of concrete on the truck. He had the driver mix it for a couple minutes and when they started to pour the fiberglass came out in large clumps. He had it mixed more. They then poured and you could still see clumps of fiberglass in the concrete. Today I was able to pull out a baseball size clump of fiberglass out of the dried concrete, I have pictures. You could still see clumps near the end of the pour. I asked the contractor about my concerns and he insisted that it was ok and he wanted to fix the hole in the concrete where I pulled out the fiberglass. I told him not to fix the hole, I wanted the inspector to see them, but he insisted he was not going to leave it that way. I told him not to fix them.
> Should I worry about this job?
> ...


Sounds like a snake oil salesman....yeah, you should worry about that pour.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

He sure sounds like BS to me..... what did you have in the slab for reinforcement... remesh/rebar....properly chaired...????


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

Nothing on the ground, just poured on bare dirt.

If he would have used concrete wire 5x5? I would not have been concerned.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Fibers in concrete require absolute control of time of application and the amount of mixing. - It is not for job site adding and mixing controlled by site idiots that do not understand what and why they are doing things.

If you saw clumped up balls the concrete will only be much worse than if they had done nothing.

Demand it be torn out out and replaced. If you hired him (the contractor) by the hour or paid for the concrete, you are have little recourse. If you have a price/contract for the job, you will be in better shape as far as getting some relief.

Dick


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

It was a contract job. If I go to court how would you prove it is a bad job?

Pictures:
http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/deoncarpenter/library/Weathers Concrete Maintenance Inc


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

6273909 said:


> It was a contract job. If I go to court how would you prove it is a bad job?
> 
> Pictures:
> http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/deoncarpenter/library/Weathers Concrete Maintenance Inc


Well... *what was specified in the contract*.... I'd sure get pictures of the clumped fibers.... then The Concrete organization (can't remember their name, but someone will) will have standards for driveways.

Hopefully, you have not paid him.......


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Well... *what was specified in the contract*.... I'd sure get pictures of the clumped fibers.... then The Concrete organization (can't remember their name, but someone will) will have standards for driveways.
> 
> Hopefully, you have not paid him.......



Yes, I paid him. I have never had a contractor do a perfect or even a good job and didn't notice the imbedded clumps until after the pour. I was not sure it was not a 'standard' job until posting here.


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

The contract just says install a 16'x37x6" driveway, a 12'x37'x6" RV pad and a 4'x12'+/-x4" sidewalk, a 10"x8"x50' footer for brick stem-wall. 50%down, and other 50% at pour.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

concretemasonry said:


> Fibers in concrete require absolute control of time of application and the amount of mixing. - It is not for job site adding and mixing controlled by site idiots that do not understand what and why they are doing things.
> 
> If you saw clumped up balls the concrete will only be much worse than if they had done nothing.
> 
> ...


Hey Dick, I have seen the fibers added at the site before with out a problem. What could have caused it to clump like that?


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

its possible the bags were thrown in unopened,,, in the past some bags were soluble ( ? ) but we never took chances,,, we'd open bags & add loose fiber rubbed 'tween hands,,, after adding fiber, its 50 spins minimum as i recall but memory does fade once in a while :yes: could also be mixing fins/blades were so worn proper mixing was impossible

never saw any reason for fiber other than help fiber makers buy bigger boats :laughing: but if engineer's spec'd it, we happily obliged :thumbsup: better you should have a properly installed jnt pattern.

welded-wire mesh only adds strength when the conc's in ' tension ' ( initial curing process ),,, after that, it only makes tearing it out a larger pita :furious:

when you go to court, take core samples w/you as the only spec is thickness,,, aci is the accepted controlling grand high kahuna for conc work

irc


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

stadry said:


> its possible the bags were thrown in unopened,,, in the past some bags were soluble ( ? ) but we never took chances,,, we'd open bags & add loose fiber rubbed 'tween hands,,, after adding fiber, its 50 spins minimum as i recall but memory does fade once in a while :yes: could also be mixing fins/blades were so worn proper mixing was impossible


He did not open the bags. 
First he tried to basketball them in without success then he climbed up and dropped them in.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

you mention'd ' inspector ' in your post - who's that ? why have 1 on private work ? :huh:

irc


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

I just got off the phone with the building department. The person I spoke with did not know the answer to the question but referred me to the Florida Building code, http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_suppor...orida/Building/PDFs/Chapter 19 - Concrete.pdf
He did say that he was 99% sure that a pre-pour inspection is required if any steel reinforcement (rebar) was used or required.
He also said we had a driveway permit but he didn't think a driveway permit covered a footer for a brick stem-wall and since the footer was incorporated into the driveway that it should have been inspected. He felt this would leave the whole job up to the decision of the inspector. He also said we were in the "special beach district" and in a flood zone and they were more adherent to "the book" in that area than the rest of the county.


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

stadry said:


> you mention'd ' inspector ' in your post - who's that ? why have 1 on private work ? :huh:
> 
> irc


Inspector? We are inspectored to death. I have to get a drainage inspection. Trying to pass my electrical inspection now. Their is a plumbing inspection, and a mobile home foundation inspection, and and elevation certificate, oh and a two septic inspections, and then the dreaded final inspection to get the COA to get the power turned on which includes landscaping. Yes we have to have a driveway inspection before the final inspection but I think it to make sure it is 5' off the property line and drains properly and doesn't cover too much area.

Thank goodness we are not in the city, they have a lot more rules.


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## NickTheGreat (Jul 25, 2014)

I would send pictures and ***** to them about it. But since you already paid (mistake) you might be up a creek.

Unacceptable work, though.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

when you go to court, take core samples w/you as the only spec is thickness,,, aci is the accepted controlling grand high kahuna for conc work

irc 



_I agree with IRC get some core samples from various places of the pour, if that were my drive and pad i'd have 1 1/2" coarse aggregate in the mix as opposed to what looks to be 3/8", but it's easier for the contractor placing that mix and finishing it._


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

i'll be damned,,, if you hadn't told us it was poly fiber, i'd have bet you used cottontail bunny rabbits or pigeon feathers :laughing: you don't have any idea of the slump, do you ? plasticizer ? water reducer ? looks soupy to me :furious: you'll need the delivery ticket - got it ? or did the contractor take it with him ?,,, no matter - you can get a duplicate from the redi-mix co,,, there's ALL kinds of good stuff on the tkt INCL design mix, batch time, delivery time, how much water was added onsite, discharge time - just gobs of stuff :yes:

then again, you probably don't want anyone using words like ' gobs ',,, sorry


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Talking to my redi-mix guy you can add the bags with out opening then at the plant they go in first the water the drum is turning then the redi-mix and the bags break down in the water. But to add the bags un open on the site he said it will clump and ball up. So the redi-mix guy screwed up. if fiber is added at the job they open the baggs one bag per yard, five min mix at full throttle. as per my Redi-mix rep.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

we used our own fibers rather'n pay the plant's markup


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Lot of fibers out there, they may have used the wrong one, when it balls up it's an indication of them being too long for the mix,not saying that's the cause but possible.


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

The fibers looked short, maybe 3/4", Take a look at the pictures. 
They poured on Wednesday and I will be back down there on Monday or Tuesday to see how it is doing. 

I called my local concrete company and they said they mix fiber reinforced concrete for 20 minutes at a minimum, this included driving time to the job. They also said the fiber is separated before adding to the mix to make sure it is separated and evenly distrubited. 
They would only comment on their procedures and said he wasn't allowed to comment on someone elses work.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

You have been screwed. Unacceptable....because even if the guy repairs the area where you pulled out the baseball sized lump, there are others that you didn't see....and every fiber in those lumps is supposed to be disributed evenly throughout the mix?.which is how they function in place of a rebar web. Male him tear out, do over. No question. Ron


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

its time to either head to ct ( unsure of fl's $ limits - small claims or superior ), call a pe, &/or retain an atty,,, back 'n' forth on an i-net forum's not going to resolve much,,, no plant's going to comment as they don't have a dog in the hunt,,, the co that supplied the mud for your job ? - your contractor's THEIR customer, you ain't ! :no:

how any 1 plant handles ' fiber-crete ' is anecdotal,,, you ( or your atty ) need aci's guides - what any of us post is only general store cast-iron store talk :laughing: otoh, i'll gladly be an xpurt witness - call me :thumbup: my operator's standing by :yes:

good luck


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

I will send him a certified letter this week asking him to replace the driveway. If he does not, and I assume he will not, I will file a small claims case. Hiring an attorney would cost more than it is worth.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Looking at the pour. I would have laid down some 5/8 minus churshed rock on top of that clay. So it would have a good substrait to be on. Less chance of vaulting that way. More money? Yes. Better investment? Yes. All my flat work i use a base of crushed rock and compact in in the forms before pour the mud.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

I always added the fiber at the plant, and opened every g-d bag individually. I was a bit paranoid about the bag not dissolving all the way, but I never had a clump problem. 

The only time I ever had something clump was when contractors would add powdered color on the job. But that's an entirely different rant.


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

Well it has not cracked, one week today. It is washing out under the slab down the sides. I need to fix that soon. 

I measured the edges and they were mostly in the mid 4 inch range. 
Do you think I will need to cut cores when the edges tell the story on the contracted 6 inch thickness? There was one section about 2' long near the street drain that was 6". 

The contractor said the slab would grade to 5-1/2" - 6".


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## HDS (Jun 21, 2014)

Did he put expansion joints in as well?


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## HDS (Jun 21, 2014)

If paid by check, has it been cashed? Stop payment.


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## 6273909 (Nov 15, 2012)

HDS said:


> Did he put expansion joints in as well?


That check has cashed. 

He put in one expansion joint in the middle, 37 feet, total length is 74 feet. It has several control joints.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

no surprise about the check BUT was it cashed OR deposited ? you do have some recourse on deposited cks.

exp jnt - 1 down the middle ? that means he placed 1 side of the d/w then the other side,,, how long is the exp jnt ? can't be both 37' AND 74',,, its either 1 OR the other,,, 37' OR 74',,, how far apart are the control jnts from ea other ? how deep are they ? were they diamond sawed OR formed by a groover ? were they sawed/grooved the same day OR sawed the next day ? is there any random cracking yet ?


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

A somewhat relates situation: In 1996 I started to build a 24 x 40 shop. Having experience working in construction and having poured just enough concrete I knew I wanted no part of digging the footers, framing the pour, preparing the re-bar, making the pour, and finishing the pour. I contracted with a man who had a good reputation with a local concrete company for paying his bills and limited negative feedback, just small gripes. This was to be a monolithic pour, I gave him specific written specs on the footer sizes, the re-bar sizes and spacing (NO 5 x 5 fence wiring in the floor) and I was furnishing all the re-bar and tie-wire, and the finished floor dimensions including floor thickness (6" specifically). "NO problem" he stated, I do these all the time". We agreed on pricing, write up a contract, and sign copies for each of us.This was to be done while I was at work as I was working 12 hour days at the time. Well--I get home that day and they are troweling off the finished floor. Sure looks pretty to me until I see most of the re-bar I had stacked up still in the same place I left it. Bells go to ringing--loud. When I asked about why the re-bar is still there he explains it simply: "We're not used to tying re-bar, I prefer to use fiber-fill and it's just as good, and the inspector came by and told us we didn't need to use two runs of re-bar in the footer's so we just used one". Now I'm P.O.'d really good. I tell him: "I really don't care what the inspector thinks unless I'm not meeting specs, as long as I'm exceeding specs and I'm paying you to do what we agreed to do in writing that's what I expect of you." A terrible thought hits me at this time. Being as my yard slopes just a bit I asked him: "How much back full did you bring in and how did you pack it"? "Oh, I only used about one truck load and we ran my tractor over it". I'm about to break my knuckles on this guy's face but know better. I told him that I going to lock the gate into my back yard right now and I don't want one of his men nor him to leave my yard until they finish troweling off my concrete. I had paid him 1/3rd. of the agreed price with the agreement to pay another 1/3rd. when the concrete was poured and the remainder two weeks after pour IF the contract was completed. I informed him that I would pay him NOTHING more until I had a chance to do two things: 1) contact my lawyer as to what my rights were with him making changes to the contract without contacting me, and 2) checking with a friend of mine who worked for a Geoscience company that does those core drill studies before someone builds big building projects. My new concrete pad cracked big time within two weeks after the pour with nothing sitting on it. My friend brought out one of their trucks on a Saturday and did three (3) core drills going through the concrete to take dirt core samples. The concrete core samples showed NO re-bar, only fiber-filled concrete. NOT as agreed to in the written contract. The dirt core sample showed that the back fill dirt was of a sandy loam type soil with little or no compaction which led to the crack in the concrete pad. I did have to pay for this information in writing for my lawyer. This did go to court and a judgement was found in my favor with little argument from the contractor (he acted as his own attorney). The judge ruled in my favor for the price of the concrete used for the project, I did have to pay for his labor as he did do the labor of the job (I disagreed), and I got nothing for his violation of the written contract as to the re-bar vs. fiber-fill. This was based on him having some written material stating that in certain applications fiber-fill was as good as or better than re-bar and his statement that for a "simple shop floor" I was asking for too much with all the re-bar and other things. The bottom line was that I was awarded the cost of the concrete, the fee for my attorney, and the fee for the Geoscience company report. The judge agreed to allow the contractor to pay me $7.00 per month, YEP *$7.00 per month* until the debt was paid. Back in 1996 this all came out to be about $1100. He did pay it in full--finally.


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