# Here's a quiz. What's wrong with this design?



## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

*This is just for grins and giggles.* 


I have a client that got a quote for installing a flat panel over the fireplace, with the cable box* & *DVD player being in a nearby closet, from his builder & electrician.

T*hey proposed:
*
1 Duplex outlet at the TV location.
1 Duplex outlet in a nearby closet.
1 RG6 (didn't say where it was to be run).
1 HDMI cable
1 Remote control

They also offered a $100.00 discount if it were done without the HDMI cable.


*So...*

What's wrong here?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

A modern TV set is very crippled without an HDMI cable. The only alternative to the preceding cables is a coax cable (could be an RG6) or a wireless link but those either greatly degrade the picture quality (signal remodulated as analog standard definition TV channel) or require complex equipment at the source end (signal remodulated into a high definition TV channel with some restrictions on copy protected content).


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

*You can do better than that...
*

Lets assume there IS a HDMI cable, and the one coax is run to the TV and not to the equipment closet.

*OR:*

Lets assume there IS a HDMI cable, and the one coax is run to the equipment closet.



What will be the biggest problem...:whistling2:


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## 300mag (Jun 23, 2014)

The big problem is there sharing a box for the power and hemi cable. Should be separate boxes for low voltage and line voltage.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

ktkelly said:


> *This is just for grins and giggles.*
> 
> 
> I have a client that got a quote for installing a flat panel over the fireplace, with the cable box* & *DVD player being in a nearby closet, from his builder & electrician.
> ...


Really cannot tell you without pictures. As for no HDMI cable. Use Cat-6 with Baluns on both ends. As for the equipment in the closet. It will need something to cool it. Probably better to slip in a Network rack, with the proper cooling unit in it. Plus you can lock the door.

Most equipment these days, can be managed by smartphone & tablet apps.


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## oberkc (Dec 3, 2009)

I would probably want more than a single duplex outlet in the equipment closet. I would probably want network connections at both locations. I dont understand how they are going to switch sources (cable box or dvd player) to send the chosen source down a SINGLE HDMI cable. I would be concerned how a "single" remote is going to control the devices in the equipment closet. Do we need an IR extender? Do we need additional wires between the TV and equipment closet for a IR extender?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

300mag said:


> The big problem is their sharing a box for the power and hemi cable. Should be separate boxes for low voltage and line voltage.


No, that is not the answer. The OP did not state that sharing a box for the power and hemi cables was taking place.

(Also not the answer to the title question) Using an A/V receiver with adequate features (in the equipment closet) any source (DVD player, VCR, etc.) can have its signal sent out a single HDMI cable to the TV. More common is having both an HDMI cable and a bunch of RCA plug cables (the latter can be RG6) going between a less sophisticated A/V receiver and the TV.

An infra-red range extender for remote controls does not require extra cables between the equipment rack and the TV.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

oberkc said:


> I would probably want more than a single duplex outlet in the equipment closet. I would probably want network connections at both locations. I dont understand how they are going to switch sources (cable box or dvd player) to send the chosen source down a SINGLE HDMI cable. I would be concerned how a "single" remote is going to control the devices in the equipment closet. Do we need an IR extender? Do we need additional wires between the TV and equipment closet for a IR extender?


One 120 vAC/20 amp Single Duplex will work fine. You would use a Rack mount UPS or shelf to set a UPS on for the equipment.

As for that single HDMI output. You would be using an AVRS as the switching source. Add to that a Sound bar for regular tv viewing, when you do not want to run the Home Theater. That is exactly how I have my A/V gear setup, that sets on a two shelf with a table top Coffee Table style A/V Television stand.

Everything goes into my Denon AVR-1612, then a single HDMI to the Panasonic Plasma. The Soundbar is connected to the DirecTV HR44/700 DVR, which also has a DirecTV AM21N ATSC OTA Tuner for locals over an Antenna setup in my attic.

Only time the Home Theater goes on is during Football Season, watching movies on DirecTV OnDemand, Netflix on the Blu-Ray or DVD/Blu-Rays on the Blu-Ray.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

It's over the fireplace. If they don't use the fireplace, no big deal....


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

ddawg16 said:


> It's over the fireplace. If they don't use the fireplace, no big deal....


You try sitting in a couch or chair and straining up your neck, to watch tv over a fireplace. We have friends who did that when they built their new home. Six months after they moved in. They got a cabinet to set the tv on, due to they got tired of the neck strain. Plus when they lit the fireplace, the tv did not like the heat radiating up from it.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Pretty good answers. But.

Note that this is a quote for the entire install. TV mounted and operational.


*Here's what I see as lacking:*


1. No mention of a mount.

2. No mention of IR wiring.

3. No surge protection for the TV.

4. No mention of a AVR, HDMI switch, to allow for more than one source.


And then there's the option without the HDMI cable, which opens a whole new can of worms.


*My design, and how it actually is going to be done:*

1. One duplex outlet in the closet.

2. One In-Wall power kit for TV.

3 Two RG6 coax to closet from demarc..

4. One RG6 to TV location from attic.

5. Six Cat5e from closet to TV location.

6. One large back box for behind the TV.

7. One shelf mount Line conditioner/surge suppressor.

8. One RF remote control w/base station.

9. One WALL MOUNT for the TV.

*Why all this?*


The six Cat5e allows for using HDMI extenders rather than HDMI cables, which can be problematic, and allows for possible wire damage (it's good to have some spares).

The RG6 to the attic allow of a antenna connection that can be used should cable service be down.

The two RG6 to demarc allow for dedicated lines for the cable box, and the internet modem.

The large back box allows the TV to hug the wall, and room for stowing the HDMI extender, cords, etc, etc.

The RF remote and base allow for complete control, with video switching done on the TV (it's a cost issue).

In this case, ALL the items are surge protected, and everything will be installed and functional. It also allows for the additional of a video streaming device, video switching device, or more, at a later date.

Client does not want a speaker bar or surround speakers (although I tried).


I'm leaving out some other small details. but you get the idea.


I feel the original quote was something like a bogus thing which would have led to the old "Oh, we need to add that", at a large additional expense.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

ktkelly said:


> *This is just for grins and giggles.*
> 
> 
> I have a client that got a quote for installing a flat panel over the fireplace, with the cable box* & *DVD player being in a nearby closet, from his builder & electrician.
> ...


Actually, what is wrong is the same thing in the quote......not enough information in your post to figure out what is wrong. Too many assumptions on both parts.

No mention was made of any other AV equipment. For all we know, it was just a direct run from a cable box to the TV. For all we know, the TV came with a mount. There was no mention of IR wiring....kind of along the lines of no mention of any other equipment.

You made no mention of RG6 splitters or amps. Once again, we are assuming just the one connection.

And while Cat5E is fine for HDMI extenders, given the slight to none cost difference, I would go Cat6 for the heavier gauge and better shielding. Also improves potential performance of POE should that be desired in the future.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

ddawg16 said:


> Actually, what is wrong is the same thing in the quote......not enough information in your post to figure out what is wrong. Too many assumptions on both parts.
> 
> No mention was made of any other AV equipment. For all we know, it was just a direct run from a cable box to the TV. For all we know, the TV came with a mount. There was no mention of IR wiring....kind of along the lines of no mention of any other equipment.
> 
> ...


My original post gave ALL the info that was in the quote. There were no assumptions being made, or really, to be made. That was the quote for the entire installation. No additional equipment, IR wiring, etc, etc.

The quote left out all those little things, like amount & IR wiring, that it would have required for the system to work, because they were not included.



As to the cat6 rather than cat5e? There's no real need to use shielded cat6 in this install, as the cat5e will do what's needed.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

ktkelly, your first post has a lot of holes in it. Running six Cat-6 with Balun's is over kill. One Cat-6 from a HDMI switcher, or AVRS, with Optical or RCA to a Soundbar is the better way to go.

Most equipment can be controlled by a Smartphone or Tablet over the LAN. You can also use the Logitech Harmony switcher.

There is not any flatscreen out there with six hdmi inputs. Plus someone is going to get frustrated and you are going to be getting a lot of trouble calls, of why the tv is not working.

And yes there is a reason for Cat-6 over Cat-5e for HDMi over Ethernet wiring. You will find that Cat-5e will fail.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> ktkelly, your first post has a lot of holes in it. Running six Cat-6 with Balun's is over kill. One Cat-6 from a HDMI switcher, or AVRS, with Optical or RCA to a Soundbar is the better way to go.


Am not running any "baluns". I will be using 2 cat extenders, and will be using only four of the cat5e. The other two are for back up, in case any wires get damaged during construction (as tends to happen).

The 2cat extenders are much more cost effective. Especially when compared to a HDMI switch that can be controlled via RS232, or IR, reliably.

If the client wanted an AVR, which isn't needed, or a Soundbar, which isn't needed, they would be there as required. Client also doesn't want either.



> Most equipment can be controlled by a Smartphone or Tablet over the LAN. You can also use the Logitech Harmony switcher.


If the client had either a smartphone, or tablet, that might be desirable, and that's a big maybe. I have found that most people do not want to use either of those for controlling the TV.

I wouldn't ever use a Harmony remote on any install. I use professional products that work as they should, all the time. There is one hell of a difference.



> There is not any flatscreen out there with six hdmi inputs. Plus someone is going to get frustrated and you are going to be getting a lot of trouble calls, of why the tv is not working.


I never said there was a TV with 6 HDMI inputs, however there were quite a few that did (Sony, Samsung, etc, etc.). Currently most have two, three and sometimes four.

I'm only using two, so no issues there.

Why would the client be frustrated, and I receive a lot of trouble calls?

I'll be using a control system that uses discrete commands, so switching will be done when and if it should. The system will not get out of sync like it can with a Harmony remote. The 2 cat extenders are very, very stable, and should create no problems at all.

I know you favor things like Harmony, Vizio, Monoprice and the like. But I use pro level products that have a proven quality.



> And yes there is a reason for Cat-6 over Cat-5e for HDMi over Ethernet wiring. You will find that Cat-5e will fail.



Why will it fail? You know something that no one else knows? You know better than the thousands of custom installers that use cat5e day in, day out?


Peace...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Damage during Construction does not "Tend" to happen, if you pull the wires through the Smurf tube, after everything is done. You only need one, to either an AVRS or Active HDMI switcher.

You are over thinking this way too much at this point.

As for Custom installers using Cat-5e. They are using it for phone now, but Cat-6 for touch panels, HDMI over Ethernet LAN & Ethernet wiring. RG-6 is used for Component wiring which is not needed if you configure the equipment setup properly.

I could trim a lot of fat out of the job you are wanting to do, and have it look professional.

For in the closet, you only need one Cat-5e or Cat-6 run to a 10/100/1000 5 or 8 port switch (go with the Netgear GS-10x series). Wifi can be done with a Wireless Access Point with a POE Injector. Something like the Engenius EAB-350. The POE Injector can be connected at the switch in the closet, and the A/P goes on the ceiling like a Smoke Detector.

In my pictures, I have my home theater setup and Networking gear if you have not looked at it. I went from around 14 Ethernet wires to only now using 5 at this point.

Two Wireless Access Points, a Wired router connected to a switch. I have a 5 port switch for my A/V gear in my Living room. Only using two ports on that right now, but it allows me to Future proof for three more pieces of gear if needed.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

For the price of an A/V switcher http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/Video-Audio-Switchers.xhtml You can get a decent AVRS from Crutchfield. AVR's that are Wifi & Ethernet capable. http://www.crutchfield.com/g_10420/[email protected]|[rank3]Wired Ethernet&avf=N


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Nice to know that Gregz is MORE informed than those of us who are actually in the Custom Installation business.

Always good for a laugh...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

What you are doing is a Custom Installation. It is not a standard simple install like I have for my Living Room.

And yes being informed is how I make money working with clients and friends that seek my services, looking for the types of setups that I am talking about. Not something that is just haphazardly thrown together. That looks like some kid in college took bits and pieces handed down and did not take the time to research the proper way of doing it.

There is a right way and wrong way of doing this. You are going about it the wrong way and in the old way of thinking from the 80's.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Yeah, I install TV's using composite video, and program VCR clocks....:laughing:



All this newfangled electronic & internet stuff is just way beyond me.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

kt....you came in here with a post that left you wide open for criticism...in the AV field, there are lots of ways to skin a cat. The fact you're pushing Cat5E is pretty indicative that your opinion of your abilities is higher than reality.

If anything, your post could be construed as trolling. 

I do AV stuff as a hobby....for myself, family and friends...not as a living. NewEgg loves me....as well and Monoprice.....

You can slam the Harmony remote....but my in-laws love it....and my version works quite well...along with the smart phone app that goes with it....but then again, I'm running my own HTPC....SSD/2TB HD's...TV tuner....Blue Ray....

If you want to keep the discussion technical...then keep it technical. Don't start making derogatory about other members. The glass on your house is pretty thin.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

"indicative that your opinion of your abilities is higher than reality"



*That's not a derogatory statement, and a personal attack?*



Honestly, you guys are a hilarious bunch. You should hang out at the AVS forums with a lot of other DIY'ers that know more than those in the profession.


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## oberkc (Dec 3, 2009)

I guess I have lost track of the point of starting such a thread. Cleary it was not for seeking advice from the DIY community, to whom this forum was aimed, I thought.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

ktkelly said:


> "indicative that your opinion of your abilities is higher than reality"
> 
> *That's not a derogatory statement, and a personal attack?*
> 
> Honestly, you guys are a hilarious bunch. You should hang out at the AVS forums with a lot of other DIY'ers that know more than those in the profession.


Avsforums.com would be the last forum that I would call professional. It is like stating that This Old House & the DIY Channel are professional programming.

Nothing but a bunch of kids and people with unrealistic thoughts how things should be done, spending extravagant amounts of money on equipment, with no clue how to hook it up.

Your setup you are doing, is Basic A/V 101.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> *Your setup you are doing, is Basic A/V 101*.



Why yes it is.

That's exactly what it needs to be, because that's what the client wants.

No AVR. No Speakerbar. No Smart Phone control, No Ipad control, No streaming video.

A simple solution that will work. Cable box and DVD that aren't sitting on the mantle, as the builder would had it set up for.

A remote that will keep it in sync, when switching from Cable, to DVD, to Off-Air.

Some additional wiring for a "just in case" situation, and power conditioning/surge protection.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

It will never happen with how the Client wants it. You have to have something that you can control the equipment in the closet without having to get up and go to the closet to work the equipment.

Also No AVR or No Speaker bar. Bad sound out of the tv. TV speakers are the worse thing when listening to tv.

You will find that in this setup. You will have a client who will always be calling you for stuff that is "broken" or does not work like they thought it would. Because they saw in a showroom how a proper setup is done in this type of situation.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> It will never happen with how the Client wants it. You have to have something that you can control the equipment in the closet without having to get up and go to the closet to work the equipment.



I guess in your haste to dismiss my install, you didn't really look at the items I will actually be using. A professional level RF remote and base station are going into the system, so the client will not have to "get up and go to the closet" to "work the equipment".


You do know what a RF remote is don't you?





> Also No AVR or No Speaker bar. Bad sound out of the tv. TV speakers are the worse thing when listening to tv.


While I will agree the TV speakers are generally not that great, this is a case of a client already having the TV, and already using that "bad" sound.

If the client finds that sound satisfactory, that's there decision to stay with that sound quality. Besides, a sound bar can always be added, since there will be some spare wiring in place.



> You will find that in this setup. You will have a client who will always be calling you for stuff that is "broken" or does not work like they thought it would. Because they saw in a showroom how a proper setup is done in this type of situation.



Well, it'll work just like it does in their current home, in exactly the way they want, so I just cannot foresee an issue. The only difference is that they now will not actually need to look at the cable box & DVD player sitting on the mantle like big ugly bricks with wires hanging off the shelf.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

ktkelly said:


> My original post gave ALL the info that was in the quote. There were no assumptions being made, or really, to be made. That was the quote for the entire installation. No additional equipment, IR wiring, etc, etc.
> 
> The quote left out all those little things, like amount & IR wiring, that it would have required for the system to work, because they were not included.


Note that the job as described is expected to be done in a workmanlike fashion and be operable.

Among other things this means that either a wall mount was already present at the job site or that the contractor would provide one as one of the normal incidentals included with a job.


ktkelly said:


> You can do better than that...
> 
> Lets assume there IS a HDMI cable, and the one coax is run to the TV and not to the equipment closet.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm. I would be curious as to what the official answer to the bolded question is! :whistling2:


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> Note that the job as described is expected to be done in a workmanlike fashion and be operable.
> 
> Among other things this means that either a wall mount was already present at the job site or that the contractor would provide one as one of the normal incidentals included with a job.
> 
> Hmmmm. I would be curious as to what the official answer to the bolded question is! :whistling2:



Actually no mention of a wall mount, does not mean there is already one in existence,or that one will be provided. 






I'll give an update on what actually happened.

I went by the home, and the builder had installed as he quoted. The job was _finished_.

One electrical outlet behind the TV.
One electrical outlet in the closet.
One RG6 coax behind the TV.
One RG6 coax in the closet.


Nothing run from closet to TV.



So, the biggest problem is that it won't work, and the complete lack of information in the original quote pretty much confirmed that the person doing the install had no idea...

.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Did the job description state putting the TV on the wall above the fireplace?

Did the contractor put the TV on the wall above the fireplace? (Or was it already?)

Where is the other end of the RG6 cable seen in the closet?

Where is the other end of the RG6 cable seen behind the TV?

The completed work as described omitted the HDMI cable from closet to TV. So apparently the client selected the option to save the $100. to cover fishing that cable through the walls. Perhaps the client had a hard time (most folks have) figuring out his future needs today, so he will opt to string the HDMI cable (and/or some other cables of choice) along the wall himself, possibly one at a time over time. The latter is a non-problem as far as we can tell.

Possible temporary hookup from closet to mantel not part of the job:
HDMI cable from cable box to TV video 1 input.
Component video set (blue Pb, white left audio, etc.) from DVD player to TV video 2 input.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> Did the job description state putting the TV on the wall above the fireplace?


o, it wasn't on the quote.



> Did the contractor put the TV on the wall above the fireplace? (Or was it already?)


No & No.



> Where is the other end of the RG6 cable seen in the closet?


Outside



> Where is the other end of the RG6 cable seen behind the TV?


Outside



> The completed work as described omitted the HDMI cable from closet to TV. So apparently the client selected the option to save the $100. to cover fishing that cable through the walls. Perhaps the client had a hard time (most folks have) figuring out his future needs today, so he will opt to string the HDMI cable (and/or some other cables of choice) along the wall himself, possibly one at a time over time. The latter is a non-problem as far as we can tell.


Client contracted with me to run the wiring as needed, over and above what actually went into place.



> Possible temporary hookup from closet to mantel not part of the job:
> 
> HDMI cable from cable box to TV video 1 input.
> Component video set (blue Pb, white left audio, etc.) from DVD player to TV video 2 input.


While the component video would be an option, it would also have a terrible image as that is now limited to 480P (mandated on newer DVD players). Why would you do that? Why not just run HDMI for the DVD and have the full benefit of 1080P (via upscaling)?

This is why I am running the cat5e. Using extenders to carry HDMI to the TV from both sources (switching the inputs at the TV which is the more cost effective way).


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

ktkelly said:


> ... While the component video would be an option, it would also have a terrible image as that is now limited to 480P (mandated on newer DVD players). Why would you do that? Why not just run HDMI for the DVD and have the full benefit of 1080P (via upscaling)?.


Another of the possible brainstorms about choosing cables prior to fishing them through the wall.

Today's DVD player might not have an HDMI jack thus component cables might be run temporarily.

Another option, again probably after considerable brainstorming, might be a fat conduit installed between closet and TV so the cables could be changed as needed.

******************

" ... got a quote for installing a flat panel over the fireplace ..."

" ... Did the job description state putting the TV on the wall above the fireplace? ..."

" ... No, that wasn't on the quote. ... "

" ... Did the contractor put the TV on the wall above the fireplace? (Or was it already?) ... "

" ... No, and no. ... "

Aha, found the biggest problem; the quote really wasn't for installing a flat panel TV over the fireplace.

By the way, installing the TV on the wall and installing some cables does not mean that the client should then be able to point the remote at the TV and push some buttons, and start watching. It is not necessary to state what equipment (such as A/V receiver) that the client already owns or proposed to purchase imminently or later.


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