# Supply houses are really stuck-up about not selling to DIYers



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

you seem suprised ! Can't believe they wouldn't sell to you. However,,I believe several of us told you supply houses usually won't sell to the public:no:


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

HVAC stuff seems to be hard to find in general. Even ductwork. Last time I went to HD I pretty much emptied them out of their inventory. They only sell a few of everything, but not enough for a large project. I could see it being hard for a DIYer wanting to do ductwork for a whole house, for example. 

I would love if they sold more advanced stuff, like dampers. I would love to zone my house at some point but getting the parts would not be easy.


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

You are partly correct and you need to think about WHY they will not sell to you. They are protecting their dealer/contractors, but not for the reasons that you have laid out. They are really protecting themselves and you should respect the real reason. 

You come in and want to buy the $100 worth of parts. You will fix your furnace and that will, by and large be the extent of your trade with the wholesale house. The Ruud dealer that you think they are protecting, will probably spend $100,000 with them this year. So, you see, they are really protecting themselves and I hope, regardless of how it effects you, maybe you can appreciate the WHY.

I am a huge proponent of DIY, but I see both sides of the coin. You are frustrated because of how it effects you only. I have no idea what you do for a living, but maybe the above logic can be applied in your world.

I am not taking sides, I just think I understand the WHY.


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## Artco (Sep 23, 2010)

Supply houses do not sell to the general public because they can only sell to a State licensed contractor and State Licensed technician. This is a requirement by Consumer Protection and environmental protection.
All HVAC service technicians have to carry a occupational license and EPA refrigerant certification to purchase at the local HVAC wholesalers in Connecticut. The wholesalers will not sell to anyone who is not licensed.


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

Artco said:


> Supply houses do not sell to the general public because they can only sell to a State licensed contractor and State Licensed technician. This is a requirement by Consumer Protection and environmental protection.


That may be the case in CT, but in many states, no license is required. No licensing board exists. As far as the EPA is concerned, a 608 cert or better is the only requirement, and that is only related to the bulk purchase and servicing of cooling gases.

In most states, Plumbing, HVAC and Electrical is separate in its governance and requirements.

And, I can tell you from VERY first hand experience that a wholesale HVAC supplier can sell to anyone that they want to sell to. The choice is financial first.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

Home Air Direct said:


> You are partly correct and you need to think about WHY they will not sell to you. They are protecting their dealer/contractors, but not for the reasons that you have laid out. They are really protecting themselves and you should respect the real reason.
> 
> You come in and want to buy the $100 worth of parts. You will fix your furnace and that will, by and large be the extent of your trade with the wholesale house. The Ruud dealer that you think they are protecting, will probably spend $100,000 with them this year. So, you see, they are really protecting themselves and I hope, regardless of how it effects you, maybe you can appreciate the WHY.
> 
> ...


Contractors do not enjoy competition and they enjoy price fixing through restricting, boycotting or bullying their supply chain. 

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nyedce/2:2009cv00613/289009/

Kichler Lighting came up with anti-competitive price fixing scheme to prohibit its customers from advertising its products below vertically ordered pricing structure for no other reason than preventing competition.

Quoting Kichler, it made the following statement for its price fixing scheme: 
“Due to the growth of the Internet channel of commerce, we are seeing more and more of our distributors losing sales to these low price Internet web sites." 

Kichler admitted it was policing point-of-sale price in order to protect "traditional" contractors and showrooms, which is just another way of saying anti-competitive practice.

The only reason I can see for supply house not wishing to give access to parts at wholesale price to the public is that it creates competition for contractors and the contractors pressure them to not do so. 

Just imagine what it would be like when car parts only become available for purchase by licensed mechanic with tax ID on account and you're forced to take it to a shop and pay labor and parts markup only because you can't get parts. It's the same logic.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You should call the wholesalers that Walmart uses. And ask to buy their products directly from them, instead of going through Walmart.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> The only reason I can see for supply house not wishing to give access to parts at wholesale price to the public is that it creates competition for contractors and the contractors pressure them to not do so.


If they sold it to the public for the same price. Then it wouldn't be wholesale pricing anymore. Look up the definition of wholesale.

It would then be retail. Since the general public is retail.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

You can find most replacement parts for most major brands of HVAC equipment on the web.


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## civiltoatee (Oct 19, 2009)

I do sense that supply houses, in general, have tighten their reins on selling to DIYers over the last ten years or so. It seems to be an industry-wide movement in HVAC, to make supplies, parts and information less accessible to the DIY community. That is why I am so grateful to those individuals that are willing to share their expertise on this site.

To the pros out there, has there been some type of industry-wide, top-down movement, say from a professional organization or manufacturer's collabrative that has been leading the charge with the goal to make HVAC industry more "professional" and, therefore, less accessible. Or would you say that movement is more grass roots. Ultimately I would think it is about economics, but it is hard to believe that DIYers "suction" more than 0.5% of the gross profits from the residential side. When you move to commercial, I am sure the number drops to practically zero.

My sense is that the complexity of the devices and systems will, much like the automotive industry, drive out most DIYers. There is also a clear trend in this country toward less, I guess I would call it, "rugged individualism", where one gains a sense of accomplishment and self satisfaction from completing a task that involves getting your hands dirty. Out of convenience, people hire others to clean their house and mow their lawn. It is no surprise then, almost no one is interested in really understanding how to fix their car or HVAC.

Regarding supply houses, they should have the right to sell to whoever they want. I don't think the G-man should be regulating that, but it sounds like that does happen in some states. Supply houses likely have two reasons for not selling to DIYers: not interested in handholding and returns that come from a DIY sale and protecting their professional customer base. The privlilege of buying at wholesale prices is, almost always, a function of volume. No volume, no wholesale.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Michael Thomas said:


> You can find most replacement parts for most major brands of HVAC equipment on the web.


Yep.

And then he would have to pay for the part.

He's trying to get the part for free. Since his furnace is under part warranty at this time.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The profit margins for some very small independant dealers is VERY low where I am. They cutthroat each other (another story). Drives them mad when they see a DIYer at the parts house taking away even more of their earning potential. They lean on the parts house threaten to take their biz elsewhere so the parts house agrees to not sell to DIYers. Also saves them a LOT of hassle with DIYers parts changing/frying boards etc when they don't know what they are doing and trying to return them. Folks, this is democracy, parts houses have the right to do what ever they want with no gov't interference. Funny that I cannot go to GMs central parts depot and buy my parts there at dealer cost.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> but it is hard to believe that DIYers "suction" more than 0.5% of the gross profits from the residential side.


Unfortunately. Gross profit almost means nothing.

USA national average profit for HVAC companies ranges between 3 to 5%.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Some states in the USA do have restrictions on who can buy from a wholesaler. Most states don't.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

yuri said:


> The profit margins for some very small independant dealers is VERY low where I am. *They cutthroat each other (another story).*


Good. That's free competition. If manufacturers were setting minimum advertised pricing on equipment sales to protect the network, or contractors are talking with each other (car dealers have dealers' association meeting and such, i wouldn't be surprised if HVAC'ers did too) about pricing, something other than the market affects the price.



> *Drives them mad when they see a DIYer at the parts house taking away even more of their earning potential. *They lean on the parts house threaten to take their biz elsewhere so the parts house agrees to not sell to DIYers.


Correct, hence my prior statement, boycotting/bullying their supply chain. "we won't carry/install/service your brand unless you restrict access to products". I believe Rheem has quite dictating policies all the way through their supply chain. They regulate how their wholesaler may sell their products.



> Also saves them a LOT of hassle with DIYers parts changing/frying boards etc when they don't know what they are doing and trying to return them. Folks, this is democracy, parts houses have the right to do what ever they want with no gov't interference. Funny that I cannot go to GMs central parts depot and buy my parts there at dealer cost.


I know plenty of techs who are good at ducting, but horrible with controls, don't know how to read schematics or troubleshoot equipment without or even with using flow chart provided in service manual. You and I know that HVAC service techs, as well as auto mechanics often throw parts at problems without properly diagnosing, because they lack the skills. 

Hence anti-competitive behavior. Professionals should focus on competency that can not be replaced. If they're getting upset knowing DIYers can get professional coil cleaner, capacitors, dampers, or HSI element, its an admission that it isn't their professional skills that keeps their earning potential. They're mad, because for each HSI element a DIYer gets their hand on, it costs a contractor somewhere the +$40 markup on HSI part and $100+ service call. 

If it was their skills and DIYer wouldn't know what to do anyways even if they got the parts, why would contractors be upset the slightest bit?

Home Depot, Fry's have to deal with customer fried electronic components too. When manufacturers test items that were returned as defective, they're often just fine, including those returned by service techs. 

Supply houses should simply have pricing, fiscal year bill credit, or simple minimum purchase amount. It's not like someone just walked in and asked to buy on net 30 with no credit reference. 

Professional photographers don't complain even if pro equipment are made available to anyone willing and able to purchase them. Because, the basis of competition is skills, not someone simply having the gear. 

I can reasonably see how manufacturers would only work with factory authorized contractors for warranty work.

I do think its the industry trend to be a snob about the whole thing. Another HVAC forum restricts access to a lot of information unless you register as a professional and provide them with a business license and discussion of pricing on components is PROHIBITED. What does that tell ya?


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> If they sold it to the public for the same price. Then it wouldn't be wholesale pricing anymore. Look up the definition of wholesale.
> 
> It would then be retail. Since the general public is retail.


Suppliers are supposed to sell at the same price to anyone buying same/similar items in similar quantities. I didn't stipulate I should get the same price for one item purchase as someone purchasing similar items by full truck load. 

If a supplier sells a pallet of widget to supplier owner's cousin's contractor, they're supposed to give same pricing to other customers buying the same widget in same quantity.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Much of it is a business decision. A supplier can recognize different types of customers and should price accordingly. Only a fool will waste employee's time on a small sale to a one-time customer that wants more education and help a DIYer and not give service to a regular customer that just orders what he knows he needs and wants to get it quick since the contractor makes money on the job and eventually is much more valuable.

Frustrating to some DIYers, but it is the real world. For the small amount of annual purchases and time involved.

Dick


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> Much of it is a business decision. A supplier can recognize different types of customers and should price accordingly. Only a fool will waste employee's time on a small sale to a one-time customer that wants more education and help a DIYer and not give service to a regular customer that just orders what he knows he needs and wants to get it quick since the contractor makes money on the job and eventually is much more valuable.
> 
> Frustrating to some DIYers, but it is the real world. For the small amount of annual purchases and time involved.
> 
> Dick


I was there, with specific part #. Ready to pay and carry.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Suppliers are supposed to sell at the same price to anyone buying same/similar items in similar quantities. I didn't stipulate I should get the same price for one item purchase as someone purchasing similar items by full truck load.
> 
> If a supplier sells a pallet of widget to supplier owner's cousin's contractor, they're supposed to give same pricing to other customers buying the same widget in same quantity.


In your make believe world maybe.

I don't know what your complaining about.

We told you this would happen. Apparently you didn't believe us. So now your angry, that you were wrong.

So while you complain online. And change nothing about that supplier. Your still out of heat. And still don't have the part.

So what good is your complaining to us doing. NOTHING.

You might get better results if you storm back into that supply house tomorrow and explain your business beliefs to them. Cause we aren't going to change anything for you.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

It means I have to call someone to do it for me, because they've established a scheme to ensure contractors get service call jobs for things you can easily do yourself. 

Yes, so in the end, because of this industry's anti-competitive practice, and pressure by contractors to hinder competition, I'm stuck with wasting money unnecessarily.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> It means I have to call someone to do it for me, because they've established a scheme to ensure contractors get service call jobs for things you can easily do yourself.
> 
> Yes, so in the end, because of this industry's anti-competitive practice, and pressure by contractors to hinder competition, I'm stuck with wasting money unnecessarily.


It will be less money, then the bandwidth you wasted complaining about something this site isn't able to change.


While your out running around tomorrow. Stop by the store and pick up some Hydrocodone for me. I don't have a scrip for them. But I bet those darn doctors in your area, haven't made it that you have to pay them to write you a scrip to get it yet. So you can just walk in and get it without paying extra money for the scrip.

While your at it. Pick up an oxygen generator for me too. Around here. You need a doctor to write a scrip to get one. Imagine that. needing a scrip for something that can save your life.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

I didn't realize we expect change by posting here. Do you post things here and expect change every time? I certainly wasn't expecting change.

Apples to oranges.

You're talking about things that require prescription by law. 

I wasn't trying to buy ozone depleting refrigerant, or restricted use pesticide.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

Around here. They have a sign on entrence the door "contractors/wholesale only''

No supprise to me.. Why whine about it...In the other thread you were told


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> I didn't realize we expect change by posting here. Do you post things here and expect change every time? I certainly wasn't expecting change.
> 
> Apples to oranges.
> 
> ...



If you didn't expect change. Then why did you come here to whine about it. when you were already told about it.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Red Squirrel said:


> HVAC stuff seems to be hard to find in general. Even ductwork. Last time I went to HD I pretty much emptied them out of their inventory. They only sell a few of everything, but not enough for a large project. I could see it being hard for a DIYer wanting to do ductwork for a whole house, for example.
> 
> I would love if they sold more advanced stuff, like dampers. I would love to zone my house at some point but getting the parts would not be easy.


I can buy anything I need duct work wise. It's just so much more than the parts house, though.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Contractors do not enjoy competition and they enjoy price fixing through restricting, boycotting or bullying their supply chain.
> 
> http://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nyedce/2:2009cv00613/289009/
> 
> ...


So get your state cert and buy part and stop whining.

You have made HVAC part of your screen name, so live up toit,


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> So get your state cert and buy part and stop whining.
> 
> You have made HVAC part of your screen name, so live up toit,


You came in after I did and complained about my user name... So much for "dignity for pros" :laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

H
I know plenty of techs who are good at ducting said:


> _*What does that tell*_[/COLOR] ya?


That you have been to hvac talk:wallbash:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> You came in after I did and complained about my user name... So much for "dignity for pros" :laughing:


So much for you being an hvac professional.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Some parts stores have two counters - one for the money making that offers lower osts to contractor with accounts and a second for the DIYers (and little old ladies) that generally require more time and more returns at a slightly higher price. A DIYer should not complain about a slightly higher price since the labor for the job is "free", even though it is not efficient or professional.

Qualify as a legitimate contractor and you can get better service and a better price that you deserve. Even if you work for a contractor, you can acquire a relationship with a supplier get qualified for other projects your employer does not want to bother with.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Unfortunately. Gross profit almost means nothing.
> 
> USA national average profit for HVAC companies ranges between 3 to 5%.


That doesn't mean the employees and techs aren't overpaid. I'm sure you mean profit, after all costs including payroll.


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## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

I have 2 issues with your statements:



concretemasonry said:


> A DIYer should not complain about a slightly higher price since the labor for the job is "free", even though it is not efficient or professional.


1. I've seen many a DIY job that would put "professional" jobs to shame, both in efficiency and quality. I've also seen many DIY jobs that looked like they're hacked together with nothing but boogers and prayers. And I've seen professional jobs that looked better and worse than DIY.



concretemasonry said:


> Qualify as a legitimate contractor and you can get better service and a better price that you deserve. Even if you work for a contractor, you can acquire a relationship with a supplier get qualified for other projects your employer does not want to bother with.


2. While I may not qualify for volume pricing, any place that gets my money better give me quality service, regardless of how often I'm there.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

since we're on the topic of wholesaler pticing, I picked up one pound tube of 15% silver floss....didn't even get kissed


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> That doesn't mean the employees and techs aren't overpaid. I'm sure you mean profit, after all costs including payroll.


Guess that means anybody that owns their own house is over paid.

So either your over paid, or your fixing the system for your landlord to get a break on rent.

Techs actually don't get paid nearly as well as some might think.

Any business owner would know where the money really goes.

And its not all cost. thats 3 to 5% before Uncle Sam takes his final cut!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Can we make him drop the hvac from his screen name now? The guy does not have a clue.

Or couldn't we make him put a disclaimer that he knows as much as a box of rocks?:whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Can we make him drop the hvac from his screen name now? The guy does not have a clue.
> 
> Or couldn't we make him put a disclaimer that he knows as much as a box of rocks?:whistling2:


His screen name doesn't violate any rules of this forum.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

beenthere said:


> His screen name doesn't violate any rules of this forum.


That's funny.. I registered a domain, globalwarminator. That sounds like it could be an HVAC business, maybe I should change my screen name to globalwarminator. Then I could hand out free advice and charge for it.

-Jeff


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)




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## n2omike (Oct 4, 2010)

HVAC_NW said:


> Just imagine what it would be like when car parts only become available for purchase by licensed mechanic with tax ID on account and you're forced to take it to a shop and pay labor and parts markup only because you can't get parts. It's the same logic.


I like this statement!

I do all my own automotive work, and the vast majority of the home repairs.

Do any of you contractors/techs crying about people doing their own repairs change you own oil? Do you install your own air filters? Do you fix your car by changing oxygen sensors, alternators, brakes, wheel bearings, etc? A person saves MAJOR money doing their own repairs!

With auto repairs, there is around a 100% mark-up on parts, plus you've got to pay $85/hr to get them installed. I'm sure HVAC is the same, and probably worse. 

EXACT same concept. You don't want that rare percentage of people who can actually fix things to take the smallest slice of that pie. That's all it is...


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

n2omike said:


> I like this statement!
> 
> I do all my own automotive work, and the vast majority of the home repairs.
> 
> ...



Ahh, of course I change my own air filter in my house. I'm well qualified to do it too.

I DO pay an auto shop to change my oil, brakes head lamps, etc.

I'm qualified to do that also. I worked as a part time auto mech for a few years. But, I pay someone else to do it these days, since I no longer have access to the shop I use to work at. Seems they went out of business due to lack of work.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

trane will sell to most any business that's operating. licensed hvac or not. beyond that newark sells many of the standard components that fail like run capacitors. if you guys play around on google for awhile you will be able to find nearly ANY hvac part you need for order. if you live in an area that only sells to hvac techs either spend the $2,000 to take the classes or mail order your products, simple. :whistling2:

i know all about trades and profits. at the moment i own a carpet cleaning business. i have no problem telling people how to remove stains or DIY. doing this does two major things 1. they love me since i'm being helpful for free 2. if they get in over their head and can't solve the issue they call me. all customer positive stuff. i know that a rental can't compare of the 20k truck mount i have on the van, also know they probably won't know where to get some of the chemicals used for stain removal. so, if they can do it, great, if they can, i know i have business.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

This thread isn't about the OP not being able to find the part.

Its about him having to pay for the part. Since its under warranty.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

HVAC_NW said:


> I was there, with specific part #. Ready to pay and carry.





beenthere said:


> This thread isn't about the OP not being able to find the part.
> 
> Its about him having to pay for the part. Since its under warranty.


I did not see anything that said he wanted it under warranty
Seems he was going to pay for it ?
Not that it matters
Some places just do not want to do Biz with homeowners
And I don't blame them


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I did not see anything that said he wanted it under warranty
> Seems he was going to pay for it ?
> Not that it matters
> Some places just do not want to do Biz with homeowners
> And I don't blame them


The warranty part is in his other thread/threads.


http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/where-can-i-get-oem-rheem-parts-81370/#post500620


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> The warranty part is in his other thread/threads.
> 
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/where-can-i-get-oem-rheem-parts-81370/#post500620


this isn't even the same forum :huh:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> this isn't even the same forum :huh:


Wow. Sure looks like the DIYCHATROOM forum to me. :whistling2:


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> I'm qualified to do that also. I worked as a part time auto mech for a few years


Not by the criteria I made up. By your token, anyone who's worked a part time assistant to HVAC contractor is qualified indefinitely. You're not qualified if you had to have a automotive business with an employer ID and a delivery address matching your business address in order to even have the privilege to purchase anything


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Not by the criteria I made up. By your token, anyone who's worked a part time assistant to HVAC contractor is qualified indefinitely. You're not qualified if you had to have a automotive business with an employer ID and a delivery address matching your business address in order to even have the privilege to purchase anything



Ahh. The business account is still open at the auto stores.
I could still use it if I wanted to. The building is still there. 

No electric phone or water though. :laughing:

So I could easily have everything put in place in a few hours. 

Which then would make me qualified. :thumbup:

An assistant to an HVAC contractor. If he has worked enough years. Will know the supply house counter guys. And have little to no problem getting a part.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Ahh. The business account is still open at the auto stores.
> I could still use it if I wanted to. The building is still there.


You could use a SSN belonging to a deceased person too. The business is no longer there, which means the system is out of date. This doesn't mean you're legitimately qualified.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I used to work on cars a lot
I'd get better pricing then other people walking thru the door
My Uncle wanted an alternator...I think...$185 from the dealer
My local auto store wanted about 1/2 that...but Uncle wanted ASAP & they could not get it for me until the next afternoon
They told me to go to THEIR supplier & told me the price was $35 from them
Went in, said I was from Bob's picking up such & such an alternator...walked out the door with it after paying
Uncle gave me a GC to a restaurant :thumbsup:
Fixed a tie rod for a friend that had snapped, he was stuck at work (we worked together)
Went to my auto store at lunch...pu the part & installed it
Told him to go get a front end alignment
His repair shop wanted to know why it needed an alignment when it was already aligned
Friend bought me lunch for a while

Its been years....if I walk into a local parts store now I know I am not getting the best price
I also know they have THEIR supplier at a lower price
But if I look at $30 brake pads VS $300 to have the shop do the breaks its a no-brainer to me still


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I used to work on cars a lot
> I'd get better pricing then other people walking thru the door
> My Uncle wanted an alternator...I think...$185 from the dealer
> My local auto store wanted about 1/2 that...but Uncle wanted ASAP & they could not get it for me until the next afternoon
> ...


But if it comes to HVAC
Business name & address, state contractor's license # and federal employer ID and which account are we billing this to today?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> You could use a SSN belonging to a deceased person too. The business is no longer there, which means the system is out of date. This doesn't mean you're legitimately qualified.


Don't need to use a SSN from a deceased person.

I'm related to the former owner. I can use my SSN number, and open it under my name in a few hours. People wouldn't even know the name was different, since it would be the same name. :laughing:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

HVAC_NW said:


> But if it comes to HVAC
> Business name & address, state contractor's license # and federal employer ID and which account are we billing this to today?


I have no problem with wholesale suppliers that do not want to do business with a homeowner
I've never asked Ford to sell me a car/parts direct


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You know.

If he hadn't made such a big fuss about this. I would have told him how to get that very same distributor to provide that part to him.

They would have charged him a warranty handling fee(probably as much if not more then the part cost). But he would have his part.


I learned it from a lawyer 20 years ago.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I have no problem with wholesale suppliers that do not want to do business with a homeowner
> I've never asked Ford to sell me a car/parts direct


Supply house is not the direct source. Not even body shops, or city fleet buys direct from manufacturer. 

Middlemen is what causes increase in price and many retailers are realizing this and taking a step or two out of their distribution chain by taking online order.

Manufacturer -> regional distributor -> local wholesaler -> mom & pop shop
Each step is adding cost.

Wal-Mart often offers better pricing than local wholesaler, because they have the purchasing power to deal directly with manufacturers and operate its own logistics and warehousing operations. 

I would say "supply house" would be "local wholesaler" category.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> Wal-Mart often offers better pricing than local wholesaler, because they have the purchasing power to deal directly with manufacturers and operate its own logistics and warehousing operations.


Wal mart has things made cheaper so they can sell them cheaper.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Wal mart has things made cheaper so they can sell them cheaper.


That's only if you're talking about Wal-Mart generic stuff, but for brand name stuff with identical UPCs as those sold elsewhere, they're made the same.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> That's only if you're talking about Wal-Mart generic stuff, but for brand name stuff with identical UPCs as those sold elsewhere, they're made the same.


No, they aren't.

Wal Mart pays the vendor/manufacturer so much less then what other stores do. that the product is made with lesser quality parts. Clothing is made from a lower grade fabric.

The manufacturers have no choice but to cut quality, in order to turn a profit on what Wal Mart will pay them.

I know the owner of one of the companies that makes garments for Wal Mart. Its just a small company. But he grosses 7% above his cost. When they are the buyer.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> No, they aren't.
> 
> Wal Mart pays the vendor/manufacturer so much less then what other stores do. that the product is made with lesser quality parts. Clothing is made from a lower grade fabric.
> 
> ...


Are these garments with same UPCs available elsewhere though? Wal-Mart sells a lot of things sold exclusively at Wal-Mart and those tend to be not up to quality


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Yep. listed as the same garment.

They don't get the same quality when they pay half as much for the same item.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

From Walmart VP:



> Snapper is the sort of high-quality nameplate, like Levi Strauss, that Wal-Mart hopes can ultimately make it more Target-like. He suggested that Snapper find a lower-cost contract manufacturer. He suggested producing a* separate, lesser-quality line with the Snapper nameplate just for Wal-Mart. Just like Levi did*.


Snapper said ....No



> "As I look at the three years Snapper has been with you," he told the vice president, "every year the price has come down. Every year the content of the product has gone up. We're at a position where, first, it's still priced where it doesn't meet the needs of your clientele. For Wal-Mart, it's still too high-priced. I think you'd agree with that.
> "Now, at the price I'm selling to you today, I'm not making any money on it. And if we do what you want next year, I'll lose money. I could do that and not go out of business. But we have this independent-dealer channel. And 80% of our business is over here with them. And I can't put them at a competitive disadvantage. If I do that, I lose everything. So this just isn't a compatible fit."


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

I came out of the supply house today & was met by a person that had just come out. He wanted me to purchase a heat unit for him. Said that they ( supply house) wouldn't sell to him because he wasn't an HVAC contractor.I told him I don't sell to the public:no:, but I would be glad to set up an appointment & give him an install estimate. He walked away:whistling2:


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

kenmac said:


> I came out of the supply house today & was met by a person that had just come out. He wanted me to purchase a heat unit for him. Said that they ( supply house) wouldn't sell to him because he wasn't an HVAC contractor.I told him I don't sell to the public:no:, but I would be glad to set up an appointment & give him an install estimate. He walked away:whistling2:


i'm not sure what's worse, you missing $50 or so you could have charged the guy to walk in and grab it, or the guy being clueless on how to go about getting the part he needed.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

HVAC_NW said:


> Are these garments with same UPCs available elsewhere though? Wal-Mart sells a lot of things sold exclusively at Wal-Mart and those tend to be not up to quality


you ever figure out how to mail order your hvac parts yet? just wondering


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

racebum said:


> i'm not sure what's worse, you missing $50 or so you could have charged the guy to walk in and grab it, or the guy being clueless on how to go about getting the part he needed.


 
I didn't miss anything. He would have gone back to the supply house wanting them to warranty a part that he burn up on installation. They would have known I bought the unit & refered him to me


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> From Walmart VP:
> 
> Snapper said ....No


They either go down in quality. Or they don't sell to wal Mart.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> i'm not sure what's worse, you missing $50 or so you could have charged the guy to walk in and grab it, or the guy being clueless on how to go about getting the part he needed.


Installing the unit is a lot more then 50 bucks.

Guess you buy beer and liquor for kids that are standing outside of stores.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

kenmac said:


> I didn't miss anything. He would have gone back to the supply house wanting them to warranty a part that he burn up on installation. They would have known I bought the unit & refered him to me


how? whenever you do a cash deal with someone it's final. the parts house would have no record of him buying it and the dude would be SOL if he did damage the part


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Installing the unit is a lot more then 50 bucks.
> 
> Guess you buy beer and liquor for kids that are standing outside of stores.


installing has nothing to do with grabbing a part and handing it off. 

buying beer for kids is a crime. the above is a fast buck. the difference should be obvious.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

racebum said:


> how? whenever you do a cash deal with someone it's final. the parts house would have no record of him buying it and the dude would be SOL if he did damage the part


 

The supply house would have a record of me buying it.To get him to go away / stop calling . They would have him contact me


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

kenmac said:


> The supply house would have a record of me buying it.To get him to go away / stop calling . They would have him contact me


mmm...personal call i guess. in my opinion you're over thinking fast transactions. if you ever sell a car, a part, a anything it's a final deal unless stated otherwise. 

if you do a job for someone obviously you take care of them if something goes wrong. 

i'm starting to think there's money just pushing parts to the public as tight as supply houses are with walk ins.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> installing has nothing to do with grabbing a part and handing it off.
> 
> buying beer for kids is a crime. the above is a fast buck. the difference should be obvious.


He didn't say a part. He said a heat unit.

And if ken doesn't have a retail license, selling to that guy standing outside the supply house is also a crime.

Not recording a sell is a crime.

So there is no difference. other then you accept one type of crime over the other.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> i'm starting to think there's money just pushing parts to the public as tight as supply houses are with walk ins.


Start your own business doing that.

Then come back in 5 years. And tell us how your making out. If your still in business.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

racebum said:


> how? whenever you do a cash deal with someone it's final. the parts house would have no record of him buying it and the dude would be SOL if he did damage the part


FYI cash does not mean no paper trail any more.. Every invoice has a serial number of the unit sold.

And the name of the company buying it. I go into a a supply house I don't buy from, they won't even sell me a stat with out opening an account.

And I don't mean a charge account either, i mean an account that just allows me to BUY from the supplier.

You can buy a furnace at one of the home centers, but with out a receipt that shows the serial number you got a voided warranty.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Start your own business doing that.
> 
> Then come back in 5 years. And tell us how your making out. If your still in business.


stuff like this HAS to be a side business. the only issue with doing it is hvac is such a *****y little girl trade....which, oddly enough is why i keep thinking about getting in it for extra work :laughing: the hourly billing is great and the education is fairly cheap all things considered. the biggest problem with parts pushing is a retail license and location. if i just sold a bunch of crap out of my house i'm going to piss off a lot of the local guys who will probably turn me in. i know this. so it would be a numbers game if it's profitable to actually have a small store front or not.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> He didn't say a part. He said a heat unit.
> 
> And if ken doesn't have a retail license, selling to that guy standing outside the supply house is also a crime.
> 
> ...


That's right. The state sales tax is another thing you and the supplier have to worry about.

Since all my furnace jobs are flat rate I pay the tax at the source (supplier in this case). 

Bout the only way to avid a paper trail is to buy a stolen unit from a crooked supplier employee.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> stuff like this HAS to be a side business. the only issue with doing it is hvac is such a *****y little girl trade....which, oddly enough is why i keep thinking about getting in it for extra work :laughing: the hourly billing is great and the education is fairly cheap all things considered. the biggest problem with parts pushing is a retail license and location. if i just sold a bunch of crap out of my house i'm going to piss off a lot of the local guys who will probably turn me in. i know this. so it would be a numbers game if it's profitable to actually have a small store front or not.


The education is cheap. :laughing:

The education is continual, and never cheap. Someone MUST pay for any mistakes made.

Even if no contractor turned you in. You would be put out of business by your customers. When they took you to court. Since by law in all states. You MUST warranty the parts you sell.

You could win one or 2 cases. But you wouldn't win the third. And after that word got out. You'd go broke. You'd be surprised at the number of parts that people return claiming they didn't work when they installed it. 

And the reason is that they installed it wrong, and broke it or burned it out.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

that could be the reason HD and lowes don't sell hvac parts. didn't know that about the warranty. and yes the education is cheap compared to going after a degree. for the income you can make in HVAC it's a really good deal dollar for dollar in education. what's a 4yr degree at a state university cost vs hvac training? and, the really fun part, you'll likely make more in hvac than your average bachelors


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> that could be the reason HD and lowes don't sell hvac parts. didn't know that about the warranty. and yes the education is cheap compared to going after a degree. for the income you can make in HVAC it's a really good deal dollar for dollar in education. what's a 4yr degree at a state university cost vs hvac training? and, the really fun part, you'll likely make more in hvac than your average bachelors



Check out Ferris University.

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/colleges/technolo/index.cfm

4 year degree for HVAC.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

? we have a local trade school i just was looking at when i picked up a part at trane the other day. the whole deal with about $4000 with the extras. how in the world could you spend 4yrs learning hvac? i mean i get the idea of wanting to keep fewer fish in the same pond, every trade is that way. fact be fact though getting certified from what i could tell was $2900 and with extras came in around 4000

if you're working in the field, what got you into it and what did education consist of?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Not sure of total cost of education(been many additional training classes since 75). But well in excess of 30 grand total, over the years.

Well. After you take one of those 4 grand courses. You come back and tell me how a single indirect A/C system works. And then explain how a double indirect works. And where they would be used.

And then go into the benefits of a valance system over other conventional systems.

And after that, you can touch on radiant cooling(I need to take some courses on that myself).

You seem to be over looking that its HVAC heating, ventilating air conditioning. And the air conditioning doesn't just stand for cooling.

What got me into it. Just wanted to understand how A/Cs really worked.

I work in the field, and the office. I am the office, the service tech, and the grunt.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

There are trade schools for Computer Tech support too
You are "certified" in 6 months
Hired a guy who did that
He lasted less then 3 months before I fired him
Because he was clueless

Another job I inherited a guy already working there who did the same thing
He also lasted less then 3 months working for me


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

racebum said:


> how in the world could you spend 4yrs learning hvac?


I bring a couple of perspective views to this forum that most of you do not. Most of the players here are either Pros or DIY'ers. In the case of this discussion, I am the Wholesaler. Something that I have seen over and over again, when a fresh, new contractor is educated and hangs a shingle, is FAILURE. I was recently reflecting on my past decade in HVAC Wholesale, and was thinking about the new contractors that I have seen start business. I don't think 10% have are still in business.

Less then 5 years of field experience is usually a recipe for disaster. 

Now, with that said, I agree with you that if you play your cards right, aspiring to work in HVAC is kinda like nursing. your return on investment and the security that goes along with that is pretty good. But be prepared to WORK!!!


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

mmm. can't say i'm totally surprised. the successful people i know who did the trade school route did so only to become certified. they were already knowledgeable in the area they got the cert in.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Hey racebum, maybe ya' didn't know it but even auto mechanics are degreed these days.

We have three local college that offer associates of science in Climate Control Technology.
Ferris is the premier hvac institution in the country.

I have friends who are finishing Bachelors in Science who own business.

I have a state certified vocational teaching credential. Past President of my educational association. 

Like Been we all are constantly up grading our skills and learning new technologies. That education costs money.
Maybe now you'll come away from this thread with a better appreciation 
of why good techs and good companies command a higher dollar for our services.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

HVAC_NW said:


> It means I have to call someone to do it for me, because they've established a scheme to ensure contractors get service call jobs for things you can easily do yourself.
> 
> Yes, so in the end, because of this industry's anti-competitive practice, and pressure by contractors to hinder competition, I'm stuck with wasting money unnecessarily.


 its got a lot to do with liability also.
if the supply house sells a gas valve to somebody who in turn blows up their house while installing it youll have lawyers lined up for miles waiting to sue somebody :whistling2:


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

plummen said:


> its got a lot to do with liability also.
> if the supply house sells a gas valve to somebody who in turn blows up their house while installing it youll have lawyers lined up for miles waiting to sue somebody :whistling2:


this is one part i REALLY dislike about our country. if that happened we should write a story about not being an idiot. not suing someone for selling a perfectly good part.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

hvaclover said:


> Hey racebum, maybe ya' didn't know it but even auto mechanics are degreed these days.


this....is true BUT

your ASE masters is based on school or work experience. you then have to pass the tests but job experience counts. really cool schools like the arizona based UTI is designed to produce world class technicians, not just mechanics. these guys wind up working on nascar, cats and high dollar equipment. 


if we carried this principle to HVAC and i'm not sure if it does, the guys comming out of the top end schools would be working on major commercial applications and making some serious money.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

racebum said:


> this is one part i REALLY dislike about our country. if that happened we should write a story about not being an idiot. not suing someone for selling a perfectly good part.


Thst's why suppliers don't sell to DIYs around here.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

racebum said:


> you'll likely make more in hvac than your average bachelors


And that statement just supports my argument. It protects job security and what I think is excessive compensation for certain occupation through limiting access to components crucial to the repair of HVAC systems.

http://hvacrdistributionbusiness.com/mag/rheem_partnering_distributors/
Why do you suppose the contractors are "livid" about the advent of direct procurement supply chain if it was THEIR skills and competency that made their living rather than markups on equipment and parts?



plummen said:


> its got a lot to do with *liability *also.
> if the supply house sells a gas valve to somebody who in turn blows up their house while installing it youll have lawyers lined up for miles waiting to sue somebody :whistling2:


I disagree. Even employees covered under workers' comp sue others claiming safety mechanism malfunction aggravated the extent of injury or other things that might happen even if the direct causation is tech's screw up. for example, technician who screwed up and got owned by electric god resulted in a lawsuit. 

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_elevator_arc/


You can buy butane at 7-11, Skil-Saw at department stores, knives at many places among other things capable of decapitating someone or blowing up a house in the event of an accident. 

Given these circumstances, I don't believe "liability" is a valid ground for not selling to "joe schmoe".

Supply houses do not verify the status of contractors insurance and that their workers' comp coverage is current.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC techs make their money by working overtime.

Most guys with a bachelors degree don't work overtime. Or atleast they aren't getting out of bed at 2 AM because someone's heat quick working. After the unit was making noise for 2 weeks.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

HVAC_NW said:


> And that statement just supports my argument. It protects job security and what I think is excessive compensation for certain occupation through limiting access to components crucial to the repair of HVAC systems.
> 
> http://hvacrdistributionbusiness.com/mag/rheem_partnering_distributors/
> Why do you suppose the contractors are "livid" about the advent of direct procurement supply chain if it was THEIR skills and competency that made their living rather than markups on equipment and parts?
> ...


the supply houses i deal with wont sell to you unless you have a license on file and epa cert on file,the city started that rule.
im guessing the city inspectors got tired of dealing with hack artists with a pickup truck and a ladder doing butcher jobs on peoples stuff :whistling2:


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

plummen said:


> the supply houses i deal with wont sell to you unless you have a license on file and epa cert on file,the city started that rule.
> im guessing the city inspectors got tired of dealing with hack artists with a pickup truck and a ladder doing butcher jobs on peoples stuff :whistling2:


 
An EPA card and license does nothing to prevent butcher jobs and hacks.


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

It's easy to buy from HVAC parts houses. Just get your EPA card and tell the branch manager to set you up with a will call COD account. Use the name "______ Properties".

An EPA card isn't hard to get. Just spend a few nights studying and take the test.

Once you have an account number they'll sell to you.


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Most guys with a bachelors degree don't work overtime. Or atleast they aren't getting out of bed at 2 AM because someone's heat quick working. After the unit was making noise for 2 weeks.


IT guys nearly all have a bachelor's, often work UNPAID overtime, and get out of bed at 2 AM to replace a terminal that someone ran over with a forklift.


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## deerhunter (Jan 31, 2010)

From examining the workmanship of my HVAC systems (two), I have to say that my local HVAC company didn't live up to the name of professional. The return ducts are horribly leaky. For both system they used wall cavity. In one, there is a visible several square inches gap and for the other, they didn't even bother to seal the metal duct to the wall cavity. They simply screwed the duct to the wood with three widely spaced duct screws, leaving gaps over half inch wide. I called their service to look at the first gap (the second was discovered later) and the tech insisted it isn't a problem. He actually came twice, the first time only my wife was home and he said he didn't find any leak (after I told him exactly where to look). So I told him to come again in the afternoon so that I can show him the leak. And when I did, he said he saw it and apparently, didn't consider it's a leak (I can take a picture of it if anyone is interested, I have sealed it up with foam). The reason I called was that I hoped they would recognize this is their bad workmanship and would check my air handler for possible debris buildup due to the leakage for free. Apparently he didn't leave me any room of illusion that that's going to happen.

During the past few days, I did some work on sealing the return and supply ducts that's connected directly to the AH unit. I found horrible workmanship again, lots of gaps. Duct tapes were used for many sealing jobs, and there were places that connections weren't completely covered even by duct tape.

A friend told me he also had to had his duct sealed when he first moved into his new construction, because the AC wasn't cooling down the house at all due to a big leak. I'm pretty sure his was the same company since it's a pretty small town.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

operagost said:


> IT guys nearly all have a bachelor's, often work UNPAID overtime, and get out of bed at 2 AM to replace a terminal that someone ran over with a forklift.



Then they didn't pay attention in college. Since not getting paid over time if they are an employee is a violation of federal law.

Guess they should have also gotten a degree in economics.

And not all IT guys have bachelors. The main guy or 2. But not the rest of them. Unless a guy is getting his experience years in. So he can get a better paying job.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Then they didn't pay attention in college. Since not getting paid over time if they are an employee is a violation of federal law.
> 
> Guess they should have also gotten a degree in economics.
> 
> And not all IT guys have bachelors. The main guy or 2. But not the rest of them. Unless a guy is getting his experience years in. So he can get a better paying job.


Salaried employees are compensated the same way as hourly employees.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> HVAC techs make their money by working overtime.
> 
> Most guys with a bachelors degree don't work overtime. Or atleast they aren't getting out of bed at 2 AM because someone's heat quick working. After the unit was making noise for 2 weeks.


Don't bet on it.

Two friends who graduated Ferris...doin' on call duty just like everyone else.
The other is a one man shop getting his business off the ground...he makes calls 24 hours.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Don't bet on it.
> 
> Two friends who graduated Ferris...doin' on call duty just like everyone else.
> The other is a one man shop getting his business off the ground...he makes calls 24 hours.



I was referring to white collar bachelor degrees.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Salaried employees are compensated the same way as hourly employees.



Not all.

There are 2 classes of salaried employees.

Exempt, and non exempt.

Different laws for them.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

hennyh said:


> An EPA card and license does nothing to prevent butcher jobs and hacks.


absolutely right some of the biggest idiots ive met over the years are licensed idiots! :laughing:
i guess they figure you show that you atleast have enough time in the trade to be able to take the test which is a minimum of 4 years,thats the citys rules not mine :whistling2:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

hennyh said:


> It's easy to buy from HVAC parts houses. Just get your EPA card and tell the branch manager to set you up with a will call COD account. Use the name "______ Properties".
> 
> An EPA card isn't hard to get. Just spend a few nights studying and take the test.
> 
> Once you have an account number they'll sell to you.


 getting the city license is a lot more work than you make it out to be :whistling2:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Not all.
> 
> There are 2 classes of salaried employees.
> Exempt, and non exempt.
> Different laws for them.


Correct...I have been a salaried employee where I was paid OT
.....and a salaried employee where I was not paid OT


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

plummen said:


> getting the city license is a lot more work than you make it out to be :whistling2:


It might not be needed. It probably depends on the area. Ask for an account for property management vs contractor.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Supply houses suck I have been in the business for over 40 years and still hate to go to them.. the counter guys are wise guys who think they own the place and if you go to one you don't frequent often they give you the look plus the counter guys are wise guys most of the time.. I feel for the people who are not in the business that go to supply houses for a little help and parts as soon as they walk in the door the counter guys are saying OH! here comes another one. It's just not fair to anyone that has to put up with that attitude. It happens all the time Pro or Diyer. I think by law they have to sell to you as long as it is not refrigerant, not sure.
If the stock holders or owners of the supply houses knew what goes on there every day I am sure heads would roll.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

COLDIRON said:


> Supply houses suck I have been in the business for over 40 years and still hate to go to them.. the counter guys are wise guys who think they own the place and if you go to one you don't frequent often they give you the look plus the counter guys are wise guys most of the time.. I feel for the people who are not in the business that go to supply houses for a little help and parts as soon as they walk in the door the counter guys are saying OH! here comes another one. It's just not fair to anyone that has to put up with that attitude. It happens all the time Pro or Diyer. I think by law they have to sell to you as long as it is not refrigerant, not sure.
> If the stock holders or owners of the supply houses knew what goes on there every day I am sure heads would roll.


Yeah, some counter guys can be testy. You stay away from them to avoid confrontation and you some times get unfair prices. I over heard a conversation at a supply house; contractor (nice guy who treats everybody right) was complaining he was being gouged, the counter guy was trying to charge him $30 for a four foot ac whip. The contractor asked why he was charging him so much..counter said "you don't buy enough".

Vicious circle.

I happen to drive by that branch to day and it was closed!!!!

Could not have happened to a nicer guy.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Counter guy = thankless job, underpaid, having to deal with the phone ringing and the guy on the other end figuring you are a psychic who knows exactly what obscure part you are talking about for some 35 yr old furnace etc. Not a job I would want, does not excuse their poor behavior and attitudes though.:no:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Man/dude, if this post goes on any longer it may even beat out the *SNUGGIE*.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/snuggie-41478/

http://www.mysnuggiestore.com/


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Counter guy = thankless job, underpaid, having to deal with the phone ringing and the guy on the other end figuring you are a psychic who knows exactly what obscure part you are talking about for some 35 yr old furnace etc. Not a job I would want, does not excuse their poor behavior and attitudes though.:no:


The ones who can't take the heat are the one's who get pricky. 

And again I am complaining about a very small amount of counter guys. I tend to stay away from the ones who look like they swallowed a lemon tree orchard. 


LOL..one day one of my better suppliers was looking for a new counter guy.

When I asked the branch mgr about the opening he said, "Forget it, Clover. we can't afford the body count". He was referring to my sunny disposition:whistling2:.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Here's a good topic: Any body get turned down when returning a legit warranty part?


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

OK, I was in this early, and stayed out as long as I could, but now you have crossed into my area and I just cant control myself and have to get involved again:gunsmilie:

I manage facilities, outside sales and inside sales, including counter sales for multiple branches and I hear everything that is being said, and I agree with all of it. There are some terrible counter sales folks out there. Hvaclover has the perfect solution, and that is to vote with your feet. If the supply house treats you like you are interrupting their day, stop going. Or, if you are brand dependent, use them for your equipment and punish them by giving your parts and supplies to another house:yes:. Trust me, that is the worst. Equipment is the profit dog. The better margins are in the STUFF:thumbsup:

I have no tolerance for bad service, whether it is my customers or me. There is no reason for it. I marvel at the tudes that some sales people have towards their customers. No excuse for it and I punish or fire them pretty quickly :2guns:.

On the other hand, bad customers continue to blow my mind as well, and again, my tolerance level is low. There are some contractors who can not be satisfied. I have re-evaluated several in my career and fired a few of them too. When I observe a customer being a dick to a counter person who is really trying to help, I get involved.....and the customer is not always right:boxing:

Supply houses and contractors are relationships, just like our friends and family. And just like those relationships, when it ain't good, sometimes you have to change the relationship.

OK, I feel better now....Peace Out :thumbup1:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I think education is a big problem for them. How can they be expected to know all the different parts in the last 40-50 yrs from millivolt systems with powerpiles/pilot generators/thermopiles (3 words with the same meaning) to inducer fan/ventor fan/draft inducer same scenario plus all the different types of controls when they have never actually done the work with them. Seems like a bit of a frustrating thankless job when the contractor does not know how to describe what he wants and expects the counter guy to KNOW. Catch 22, need HVAC techs with knowledge to be counter guys but they don't pay enough. Cannot imagine how frustrating it is when a newbie tech walks in and tries to describe what he wants and rambles his way thru it. I went thru that. Fortunately furnaces where as complicated as lawnmowers when I started.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I have found that in some cases the intellect of the counter guy is directly proportionate to the contractors buying ratio.

Was working on an Concord and could'nt find the fault code in the usual place.

Called the counter guy. I could have gotten more help from a chimp. Denied having the spec sheet for my furnace so he didn't know the codes.

It was a 110v smart valve....finally fixed it.

I found the code sticker pasted half assed in the upper right corner of the front panel...

Now that is just wrong. There is a thing called professional courtesy even if a guy does not buy 50Gees worth of stuff from a supplier.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't seem to have too much trouble with them if they sense you are treating them with respect and patience. Too many contractors yell at them, expect them to know everything. I listen to them talk on the phone and see the frustration of dealing with half educated contractors. Part of the job but it must be frustrating. My co. uses flat rate so time is not money and I don't have to rush as much as doing time and material jobs.


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Called the counter guy. I could have gotten more help from a chimp. Denied having the spec sheet for my furnace so he didn't know the codes.


You are confusing counter sales with tech support. Often two different animals. Heck, I have been involved with Allied Air products for ten years now, and I can't (never could) recite a fault code of any furnace, but I always knew where to look, or who to call.

I have no problem with counter sales not having the answer to every question, but I have a big problem with someone who does not convey to the contractor that they do not know the answer, but does know where to get the answer and will and does call back.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

I have to say there's only 1 place I hate to go in & don't unless I just have to. The rest are great to do business with & will do what they can to help


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Home Air Direct said:


> You are confusing counter sales with tech support. Often two different animals. Heck, I have been involved with Allied Air products for ten years now, and I can't (never could) recite a fault code of any furnace, but I always knew where to look, or who to call.
> 
> I have no problem with counter sales not having the answer to every question, but I have a big problem with someone who does not convey to the contractor that they do not know the answer, but does know where to get the answer and will and does call back.


No, I am not. 
Point I'm trying to make here is that the counter guy had the spec sheet but was unwilling to even look it up for me(and I sure was not going to call tech support for a code...it would have been nice to have but it was not a necessity). I still buy my concord parts from him, but I guess it's not enough. They have the ring binder by model number right on the counter. They have looked up specs for their hi-volume dealer when I was there on other occasions.

This supplier is the only one who does this. We have one of the biggest hvac markets in the country here and we have a lot of supply houses.
I can even get over the phone advice from the local Carrier and Bryant suppliers and iam not a dealer. But I still get professional courtesy from al the other suppliers with the exception of the one I mentioned.

Here's the killer, when I brought the parts back for warranty they issued me a credit, and after I left, they killed the credit and I got charged for the parts.

I had to convince the main branch that I didn't owe the money.

That happened twice to me. Now I won't go back unless I have to get an OEM.
That is an example of a counter guy with a problem.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

hvaclover said:


> Here's the killer, when I brought the parts back for warranty they issued me a credit, and after I left, they killed the credit and I got charged for the parts.
> 
> I had to convince the main branch that I didn't owe the money.


totally worked great having an account, BUT if you ever get caught in this situation with a cash account use a credit card to pay for it. if you get a receipt for the credit and are charged you will successfully win a charge back against the place.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

it's not a problem that way. The local branch was just being petty.

I have accounts at all the best suppliers. My account is always cleared well before due date. So I have a sterling credit rating. That goes a long way to credibility when a problem crops up.


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Here's a good topic: Any body get turned down when returning a legit warranty part?


Smitty "tried" that with me once:laughing: ( i'm sure you remember him ) Never anyone since:thumbsup:


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

So, what's the excuse for not selling something cash payment to a DIYer who knows what he wants with exact part #?


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

Home Air Direct said:


> OK, I was in this early, and stayed out as long as I could, but now you have crossed into my area and I just cant control myself and have to get involved again:gunsmilie:
> 
> I manage facilities, outside sales and inside sales, including counter sales for multiple branches and I hear everything that is being said, and I agree with all of it. There are some terrible counter sales folks out there. Hvaclover has the perfect solution, and that is to vote with your feet. If the supply house treats you like you are interrupting their day, stop going. Or, if you are brand dependent, use them for your equipment and punish them by giving your parts and supplies to another house:yes:. Trust me, that is the worst. Equipment is the profit dog. The better margins are in the STUFF:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


So how would you handle this situation???

There is one chain of supply houses in my area that will ( as they are waiting on me ) and the phone rings they answer it and check stock or give them a price. WTF I was here first, I know what part I want. ( It is just not me that they do it with, just in case you are wondering, they do it with all contractors) Now the other supply houses will put the caller on hold until they finish with the contractor in front of them.


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

HVAC_NW said:


> So, what's the excuse for not selling something cash payment to a DIYer who knows what he wants with exact part #?


Cuz U ain't in the loop:laughing:


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

HVAC_NW said:


> So, what's the excuse for not selling something cash payment to a DIYer who knows what he wants with exact part #?


 
I think that there is another forum that may be starting a DIY section

You might want to ask them:laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

newtech said:


> Smitty "tried" that with me once:laughing: ( i'm sure you remember him ) Never anyone since:thumbsup:


 Yes. I remeber Smitty. He was probably the best tech AND counter guy of his generation.

He died.

He was the very first counterman who waited on me when i first opened my door.

He was a friend of mine.

And it's really uncool of you to mention him in a bad light. He will be remembered long after you are forgotten.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> He was the very first counterman who waited on me when i first opened my door.
> 
> .


 

What year was that ??


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Loger than I care to remember.


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

newtech said:


> So how would you handle this situation???
> 
> There is one chain of supply houses in my area that will ( as they are waiting on me ) and the phone rings they answer it and check stock or give them a price. WTF I was here first, I know what part I want. ( It is just not me that they do it with, just in case you are wondering, they do it with all contractors) Now the other supply houses will put the caller on hold until they finish with the contractor in front of them.


I see it every day. Different personalities deal with it in different ways. I think it depends on the customer who is in front of you and the circumstances of the branch and it's staff.

To me is simple (spit second) triage. I know that you will find this hard to understand, and I imagine I will get some feedback from this, but a customer at the counter is here now and will most likely, if you have the products he needs, will finish the transaction. A ringing phone on the other hand is a customer trying to get in. If that phone is not answered, that customer will be gone. So, I say that to say this. There is no right answer. If staffing is such that does not allow for support to handle all the incoming requests, be it counter or phone, then the counter person needs to politely ask the customer if they would mind if I take the call? Then comes the split second triage. After the caller states his purpose for the call, if he can not answer the question in one sentence, he must extract enough information to make a return call and then do it.

Please try try and understand


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

Home Air Direct said:


> I see it every day. Different personalities deal with it in different ways. I think it depends on the customer who is in front of you and the circumstances of the branch and it's staff.
> 
> To me is simple (spit second) triage. I know that you will find this hard to understand, and I imagine I will get some feedback from this, but a customer at the counter is here now and will most likely, if you have the products he needs, will finish the transaction. A ringing phone on the other hand is a customer trying to get in. If that phone is not answered, that customer will be gone. So, I say that to say this. There is no right answer. If staffing is such that does not allow for support to handle all the incoming requests, be it counter or phone, then the counter person needs to politely ask the customer if they would mind if I take the call? Then comes the split second triage. After the caller states his purpose for the call, if he can not answer the question in one sentence, he must extract enough information to make a return call and then do it.
> 
> Please try try and understand


this is the only way you can do any high volume low staff business. if the phone can't be dealt with in an instant you have to get their number and then give them the option to hold while you do the guy in store.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

We have a local supplier who is known as an appliance parts sales first and HVAC second.

They used operate several diff branches scattered over a large area. They had walk in traffic and the counter guys had to field the phones too.

Skip forward several years:. The counter is still there but they centralized a lot of the branches into one big warehouse.

They have a phone order department that answers the phone when you call they're number.

The guys on the counter take care of walk in contractors and don't have to be bothered with the phones.

It's a great model for success.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> So, what's the excuse for not selling something cash payment to a DIYer who knows what he wants with exact part #?



Check your state and local laws.
You may be barking up the wrong tree.


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Yes. I remeber Smitty. He was probably the best tech AND counter guy of his generation.
> 
> 
> And it's really uncool of you to mention him in a bad light. He will be remembered long after you are forgotten.


 
How do get that I had mentioned him in bad light. You asked a question. Smitty was one of the best counter guys out there. It was by no means to be disrespectful. Sorry if it came accross that way.


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

Home Air Direct said:


> I see it every day. Different personalities deal with it in different ways. I think it depends on the customer who is in front of you and the circumstances of the branch and it's staff.
> 
> To me is simple (spit second) triage. I know that you will find this hard to understand, and I imagine I will get some feedback from this, but a customer at the counter is here now and will most likely, if you have the products he needs, will finish the transaction. A ringing phone on the other hand is a customer trying to get in. If that phone is not answered, that customer will be gone. So, I say that to say this. There is no right answer. If staffing is such that does not allow for support to handle all the incoming requests, be it counter or phone, then the counter person needs to politely ask the customer if they would mind if I take the call? Then comes the split second triage. After the caller states his purpose for the call, if he can not answer the question in one sentence, he must extract enough information to make a return call and then do it.
> 
> Please try try and understand


What is wrong with the counter person to say ( If they have to answer the phone ) Thank you for calling ***** please hold. Finish up the transaction in front of them, then go back to the caller????

We have about 6 guys at our shop that will not go to this supply house unless it is the only place that we can get the part from.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

The counter person thing is no different at auto parts store, it's starting to get off topic. I think they should just have EVERYTHING listed online with web shopping cart, including prices.

Customer can simply order, pay in advance with credit card and set up for pick-up, but require an account for all refrigerants except HFCs. 

If just have someone do inventorying after hours or on a closed day and have it listed online, you won't have to deal with "do you have this and that? uh let me check, hold on... "


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You can already order any part you need over the internet. Including the part you currently need.
So just order it. And fix your heater.

The world is not going to bend to your thoughts on how it should be simpler for your convenience.


I think you should be able to order any part you need on line. After you provide the model and serial number. Then the supply house could see who installed it. And add on that companies normal mark up. Since by selling you that brand. The installing company makes the supplier more money.

ROFL


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

newtech said:


> How do get that I had mentioned him in bad light. You asked a question. Smitty was one of the best counter guys out there. It was by no means to be disrespectful. Sorry if it came accross that way.


 Whenyou saide he "tried" that with you .
Let it slide...sometimes I think more with my heart than my head. 

I'm sorry.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> You can already order any part you need over the internet. Including the part you currently need.
> So just order it. And fix your heater.
> 
> The world is not going to bend to your thoughts on how it should be simpler for your convenience.
> ...


wouldn't it be easier to make him change him his screen name?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> wouldn't it be easier to make him change him si screen name?


His screen name is fine. It doesn't violate any rules.

So he isn't gonna have to change it.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

HVAC is just a DIYer that thinks he might be a contractor of some sort.

After all the talk and personal opinions, it is obvious no one wants him as a regular customer that is reasonable and actually knows what he needs without tieing up the counter for other real contractors that make a profit by doing work and not off a part that they have to spend/waste time to pick up.

I was with a company that supplied concrete products to contractors and we could not afford to compromise service and delivery by dealing with DIYers that thought they were contractors. Most contractors would refuse to bid or do a job where the owner got in the middle of the material supply unless it was for a specific architectural purpose.

We rented out land to someone to separate the operations and directed all DIYer over there to reduce our costs and improve service. Through the years, the adjacent land leaser developed the knowledge to keep ahead of the customers that thought they knew more than did. Now that company has expanded and developed some products that are sold and licensed internationally.

Bottom line - The loud, squeeky wheel does not ever get enough oil if a pride is an issue. A contractor does not make money on parts since it is a burden and percentage mark-up to cover the time and travel and effort to make sure it is the right product. If you want it cheap, go to a big box, shop, buy return it, get replacement all on your time and travel cost(gas, wear and tear, etc.).

Dick


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> His screen name is fine. It doesn't violate any rules.
> 
> So he isn't gonna have to change it.


 
You sure you won't change your mind:whistling2:?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> You sure you won't change your mind:whistling2:?


Yep...


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok .... just checking.:wink:


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

i'm not sure why it really bothers anyone. i mean this is a dyi site and if someone wants to dyi isn't the idea to help them all we can? as someone who owns a trade business i can see where people are coming from but how many customers want to dyi? like less than 1% i love making money on supplies, labor, and the entire job. i have a mortgage to pay and cars to race you know. i don't see a problem with either side. the dyi guy wants to keep as much of his money as possible and a tradesman wants to take as much as possible for the job we do. well within reason anyway. dollars run both sides of this story, the argument is just with who gets them.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> i mean this is a dyi site and if someone wants to dyi isn't the idea to help them all we can?


No ones complaining about anyone DIY.

The OP. Things special rules should apply for him to get his parts. Thats what this thread is about.

Read his other threads.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> No ones complaining about anyone DIY.
> 
> The OP. Things special rules should apply for him to get his parts. Thats what this thread is about.
> 
> Read his other threads.



this part i really don't get. i had to order parts for my central air this past summer and in 20 minutes was able to

A: find two online suppliers
B: set up an account with my local trane {this was due to owning a local business}


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> this part i really don't get. i had to order parts for my central air this past summer and in 20 minutes was able to
> 
> A: find two online suppliers
> B: set up an account with my local trane {this was due to owning a local business}


Well. He apparently isn't able to set up an account with his local Rheem/Ruud distributor. So that he can get his part for free under warranty.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

racebum said:


> this part i really don't get. i had to order parts for my central air this past summer and in 20 minutes was able to
> 
> A: find two online suppliers
> B: set up an account with my local trane {this was due to owning a local business}


 
And more power to you. Unfortunately our OP wants all the perks or a contractor while not having the skill or license.

He just can't get over it and move on.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

no, no, no, that's my point. both the online stores i found could have cared less who i was provided i could pay. i just don't get why the op was *****ing so much with access so easy if he looked


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

racebum said:


> no, no, no, that's my point. both the online stores i found could have cared less who i was provided i could pay. i just don't get why the op was *****ing so much with access so easy if he looked


Because he can't just walk into the supply house and get his FREE under warranty part.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

oh gawd, someone send him a furby


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

racebum said:


> no, no, no, that's my point. both the online stores i found could have cared less who i was provided i could pay. i just don't get why the op was *****ing so much with access so easy if he looked


 He wanted to warranty his parts and could not because he did not have contractor papers.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

hvaclover said:


> He wanted to warranty his parts and could not because he did not have contractor papers.


this is common in a LOT more fields than HVAC. many things from car parts to computers are warranty void unless installed and serviced by an authorized technician


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

That is what the guy with a phony hvac screen name does not get.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Exactly. Can you imagine the boxes and thousands of dollars in burnt out or perfectly good returned parts because unskilled DIYers try and parts change until they get it right. Somebody has to pay for all that wastage whether it be car parts or furnace parts. They have to insist on trained techs or the costs will get out of hand. We have special tools, techniques and tech support to troubleshoot furnaces which no DIYers will ever have access to. Lennox uses DaveNet and other major brands have something similar. I don't expect GM to allow me to walk into their central parts warehouse and circumvent the dealer so he is not allowed that at RUUD. Thats life, business and democracy.:yes:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I noticed that current model ZKR Copeland scrolls are noticeably les diameter than one of the same tonnage produce 14 years ago.

Yeah, I know. I didn't notice it sooner shame on me.

Any body know the low down on that?


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

No but you think they would have an adapter plate for the mounting.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

This stuff works well


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> This stuff works well










You're friggin' kiddin' me right?


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

yuri said:


> Exactly. Can you imagine the boxes and thousands of dollars in burnt out or perfectly good returned parts because unskilled DIYers try and parts change until they get it right.


What about the idiot licensed techs? contractor board license # is all it takes to buy around here. Many don't know squat about electronics/control. If you need to rely on tech support, it means you don't know what you're doing more so than DIYers, its just that you have someone to ask that DIYers don't


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> What about the idiot licensed techs? contractor board license # is all it takes to buy around here. Many don't know squat about electronics/control. If you need to rely on tech support, it means you don't know what you're doing more so than DIYers, its just that you have someone to ask that DIYers don't


Ahhhh Sahib, this is where you show you lack expertise and your possession of any of the traits present in a real hvac professional.

A real tech does not know all the answers but knows where to find them. 

You can say what you will about "idiot techs" and contractors whom you say know "Squat" but at least these gentleman can get Rheem parts under warranty.

Which seems to be a problem for you, no, Sahib?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Hopefully this thread will go to the OFF Topic forum soon. Seems to be more DIY Griping than actual doing.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> What about the idiot licensed techs? contractor board license # is all it takes to buy around here. Many don't know squat about electronics/control. If you need to rely on tech support, it means you don't know what you're doing more so than DIYers, its just that you have someone to ask that DIYers don't


Tech support, exist to give support to techs.

Thats just the way it is.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

11 pages & no cheese ?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> 11 pages & no cheese ?



Worse yet. I'm on the wagon again, and got no wine either.


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## mjbxx (Jan 20, 2009)

yuri said:


> Man/dude, if this post goes on any longer it may even beat out the *SNUGGIE*.
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/snuggie-41478/
> 
> http://www.mysnuggiestore.com/


Maybe, maybe not. At least the Snuggie thread informed people of its benefits during the crucial heating season. Not this wholesale selling BS. Just purchase through the internets and say goodbye to all this parts buying speculation conspiracy. I a


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## mjbxx (Jan 20, 2009)

yuri said:


> Man/dude, if this post goes on any longer it may even beat out the *SNUGGIE*.
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/snuggie-41478/
> 
> http://www.mysnuggiestore.com/


It's possible. At least the Snuggie thread had relevant and crucial information in regards to the heating season. This wholesale buying meme is BS. Just purchase your HVAC parts through the internets and be done with it.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

OK.

I buy a low temp(I specify all the electrical characteristics and it is noted on the sales invoice) 460 three phase condensing unit for a freezer rack. It is a rush job because the freezer is full of still frozen prime quality meat.

I clean the refrigeration circuit prior to brazing in the CU, pull a vacuum of three hours before I reach five hundred microns.

Release the charge from the receiver and throw the disconnect.

Nothing happens. You check the voltage and its 460 three phase.

The supply house gave a 240 three phase system,

The product melts.

Who is the responsible for this batch up?


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## Artco (Sep 23, 2010)

I have had it happen to me on a few occasions, you go to the supply house and you tell them what yo want and they look it up and if they have one they bring it out to you. (you better check it)
If its too heavy you go to their dock and they load it on your truck. 
If you don't check at that point and drive away it is your fault. 

After awhile you may find the counterman if there is more than one doesn't pay attention to what he is doing (rushed) and that starts your problem. Try not to use the slacker that caused you the grief and $

If you called in the order for delivery and you give them over the phone a verbal request and they send out the wrong parts guess what it is going to be your problem because they will say that is what you requested. The best way is to fax it to them.

I am going thru a situation right now where we ordered a condenser coil for a Lennox unit and have been waiting almost 8 weeks. It finally came in crated and when we rigged it to the roof discovered the piping is different on the replacement header. we cannot use the coil. Called tech services and explained to them the problem and they said take pics which we did and send them back. 
I get a call back from tech services and the coil was manuf wrong the problem started on the assembly line.
They have to replace the coil! Now who eats the $ cost for the labor 2 men 4 hours at the site and the crane.
I ask them this and I now have to call the factory tomorrow. I wonder what type of a problem this is going to create for us and our customer.

I know it is not our fault but Lennox is going to try and get out of the full cost for their problem.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> OK.
> 
> I buy a low temp(I specify all the electrical characteristics and it is noted on the sales invoice) 460 three phase condensing unit for a freezer rack. It is a rush job because the freezer is full of still frozen prime quality meat.
> 
> ...


 
If my invoice indicated the correct part & they gave me the wrong part.. My supply house will make good on it & eat the cost. However, They go over the invoice & specs on the box with me b-4 I leave with the part


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## comp (Jan 14, 2008)

beenthere said:


> You should call the wholesalers that Walmart uses. And ask to buy their products directly from them, instead of going through Walmart.


 they would make a better profit


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

comp said:


> they would make a better profit


Not if they sold it to him at the same price they sell it to Walmart at.
Not even if they sold it to him at 10% above what Walmart pays for it.

The larger a production run is. The lower the production cost is. And the product is shipped cheaper, and payment is received quicker. So the manufacturer is paying as much interest on their line of credit. Or to their vendors.


Trying to stock items for direct sell to the public. Incurs additional cost of the limited production run(lower material volume purchase increases material cost/price). The cost of warehousing it. And the cost of additional people to handle take the orders, and then people to ship it. 

And then the interest of waiting to sell enough to cover the vendor and line of credit cost.

Along with several other things.

So an item Walmart pays 5 bucks for, and sells for 12 bucks. Would cost as much if not more if bought directly from the manufacturer in a single item purchase.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> OK.
> 
> I buy a low temp(I specify all the electrical characteristics and it is noted on the sales invoice) 460 three phase condensing unit for a freezer rack. It is a rush job because the freezer is full of still frozen prime quality meat.
> 
> ...


There's likely a disclaimer on waiver of liability of consequential loss, for example your cell phone breaks and while they replace the phone, they assume no responsibility for loss of profit and such arising from the loss of use during downtime.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> There's likely a disclaimer on waiver of liability of consequential loss, for example your cell phone breaks and while they replace the phone, they assume no responsibility for loss of profit and such arising from the loss of use during downtime.


Again you show an enormous naivete' of a seasoned tech.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

kenmac said:


> If my invoice indicated the correct part & they gave me the wrong part.. My supply house will make good on it & eat the cost. However, They go over the invoice & specs on the box with me b-4 I leave with the part


Your exactly right. When you sign for that unit and the specs are on the invoice you have accepted the equipment as being stated.

The supplier did cover the labor and even discounted the CU to show they wanted to keep my business.

and here in Mi the law favors the the written invoice over the responsibility 
of the tech having to double checking the unit data plate.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I open the box and check everything B4 I leave the parts house. Especially with ventor fans, I spin them to see if they are off balance. Once had an experience with my ole shaggin wagin. :walkman: Went to buy a sunroof for it and install myself. Opened the box when I got in the van in the parkin lot and found the glass busted. Walked back into the store. Buddy comes out to the van askin me if I had a hammer and busted it, arzehole:bangin:. Now if I had takin it home like that he would have assumed I busted it installin it.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I agree and do check my parts as i pick them up.

But sometimes you just don;t have te time to do it .


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> I agree and do check my parts as i pick them up.
> 
> But sometimes you just don;t have te time to do it .


I bet you back up your car/van without looking too


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> I bet you back up your car/van without looking too


Depends on who I see in the rear view mirror.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Alright you two..... kiss and make up now.

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Who's fighting?

We'er joking around.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Cmon Danger stay out of it let the post keep rollin, always a kill joy around.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Supply Houses


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

New members would have a hard time knowing that. Tone it down 3 notches.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> Who's fighting?
> 
> We'er joking around.


But this is not the off topic section. I find your posting disruptive. I don't disrupt your threads, don't disrupt mine. Thank you


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

ok then on ignore you go and every body can get along.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

hvaclover said:


> Depends on who I see in the rear view mirror.


if you checked the rear view wouldn't that qualify as looking :jester:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

so we were saying that supply houses only make 3to5% margins. On the face of it that does not seem like a whole lot.
And if you are not doing big numbers with a supplier you gotta wonder who's footing the bill.

Paraphrasing an industry article from some years back, if you are a one man shop don't expect to get the deals on parts and equipment you have been used to getting.

The old logic was treat all your customers the same and give every body good pricing across the board (of course even back then the really big numbers got the best of the best prices) and the supplier would rewarded with repeat business.

Well not true any more. The one man shop and companies doing small numbers are where the supplier makes his real profit. 

A company doing big numbers is getting the lowest pricing at the expense
of the one man shop and smaller company.

The logic is to keep as many big number companies as the supplier can hold onto and make it on volume while the the supplier makes a better margin on his smaller accounts.

Since the entire supply industry has embraced this approach a small company will get almost identical pricing no matter where they go.

It takes the competition out of the process as far as I am concerned. 

Because now if you buy ten of a certain part you get hardly any price break at most places. There are a few places that will still work with you but they are far and few in between.

But try buying a seasons worth of supplies and look at what it costs.
You are tying up all kinds of money which for a one man shop could impede cash flow detrimentally.

Several local one man operations I talk to have only gone as far as to carry a weeks worth of truck stock because after calculating the savings on a larger scale stock buy the saving did not justify the high dollar outlay.
That's money freed to cover the unexpected.

That's just another take on suppliers and I would like to take the time to thank my suppliers for always having my stuff ready and respecting my time.:thumbsup:


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

i would be seriously surprised if they only make 3-5% visa is 3% and change on its own. hardwood floor sellers make on average 30% if they sell a lot. chemical supply houses make 25-100% depending on what it is. i don't know any hvac supply owners but as large as the warehouses are if they made less than 30-50% on parts i would be surprised. i don't see how they could stay in business at less


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

[LEFT said:


> racebum[/LEFT];514707]i would be seriously surprised if they only make 3-5% visa is 3% and change on its own. hardwood floor sellers make on average 30% if they sell a lot. chemical supply houses make 25-100% depending on what it is. i don't know any hvac​ supply owners but as large as the warehouses are if they made less than 30-50% on parts i would be surprised. i don't see how they could stay in business at less


No racebum​ it is true.

But the sheer volume is what keeps them a float. And remember I said the smaller companies bear the brunt of the supplier's profit margin.

I one time got an invoice in the mail from the local supplier but intended for a different company. The cost of a five ton condenser was on the bill.
It was $200 less than what I paid and I had preferred pricing from them.
So the big numbers by cheaper and they buy more and get a better price too,\\.


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## Home Air Direct (Jan 6, 2009)

racebum said:


> i would be seriously surprised if they only make 3-5% visa is 3% and change on its own. hardwood floor sellers make on average 30% if they sell a lot. chemical supply houses make 25-100% depending on what it is. i don't know any hvac supply owners but as large as the warehouses are if they made less than 30-50% on parts i would be surprised. i don't see how they could stay in business at less


It is true. 3-5% is the ASA national average. But, that number is net. You are correct that 30-50% on parts is the normal gross margin, but after all expenses are taken into account, the lower net number is always very close or less.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Home Air Direct said:


> It is true. 3-5% is the ASA national average. But, that number is net. You are correct that 30-50% on parts is the normal gross margin, but after all expenses are taken into account, the lower net number is always very close or less.


Few people realize what all must come out of that gross margin.

The average person has no idea how much an employer much charge just for labor or parts. Just to make payroll, let alone a profit at the end of the year.


Lots of people think that if an employee makes 15 bucks an hour. Thats all it cost the company to pay him. Where as in truth it cost 32 or more bucks an hour for that employee to work(dependent on his bennies).


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Speaking of bennies , Been, how do the one man operations in your area obtain health and hospital coverage.

I'd especially like to know how you are managing your own. The reason I ask is you got everything else nailed down so well the on man shops might be able to benefit from your input.

Me..I am a lucky SOB..Covered under my wife's Chrysler health plan but was paying for it out of pocket when I had three guys on payroll.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Pay through the nose for health insurance. There is no break for a person getting his own health insurance.

I got burnt earlier this year changing policies. I had a lapse for 90 days(changed policies through the same company, To reduce vehicle insurance cost(But health didn't transfer at the same time, agent says I didn't tell him I wanted to transfer it). Yep. Thats when the kid broke his leg. Both his tibia, and his fibula.

40 grand.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

don't know how helpful this is but you can get group coverage as an RSES member or as a member of the American Federation of teachers.

I had my disability income policy thru American Teacher's Federation and it saved my hynie when I got in a an auto accident.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Pay through the nose for health insurance. There is no break for a person getting his own health insurance.
> 
> I got burnt earlier this year changing policies. I had a lapse for 90 days(changed policies through the same company, To reduce vehicle insurance cost(But health didn't transfer at the same time, agent says I didn't tell him I wanted to transfer it). Yep. Thats when the kid broke his leg. Both his tibia, and his fibula.
> 
> 40 grand.


They lied to you so they wouldn't have to pay the claim.
Have you tried getting into a group plan thru a pro association?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

No.
I'd have to join one again to do it.

I told the kid he's gonna have to pay me back. LOL...

PA, has health assistance that I applied for(its part of our CHIPs program). Its based on your income.

Apparently, I'm at the wrong income though. Cause I still get to pay for most of it.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

All will be on the Obama plan b-4 long anyway


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

kenmac said:


> All will be on the Obama plan b-4 long anyway


I should listen to more of what's happening but since I hit my late fifties I have taken an "I don't give a crap" attitude to politics since that man became president.

I gave up following the rhetoric when he and congress gave our domestic auto makers the loans they need to stay alive. Beyond that and the laws on eliminating abusive credit card practices and the laws guaranteeing health care regardless of pre-existing conditions and guaranteeing non-cancellation
for catastrophic illness I have not bothered to follow the health care debate.

LOL..sorry for the long explanation..

But what Obama plan are you refering to ?

Last I heard you had to buy coverage still.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

auto maker bailouts were due in part to the unemployment rate. not saving them would have made thousands loose their jobs and take down many companies that supplied them. bailouts aren't the biggest problem though, the real issue is what's going to lead our next bull market? i remember when tech fell people were already talking about housing and commodities. now...it's bleak with a lot of weight on politics. big business wants smaller government and less regulation before they hire. obamacare has to be gutted or killed off completely and tax brackets have to remain competitive. there is a major nationwide employment depression in construction that i really have no idea how it will fix itself anytime soon. in 2006 we had 40,000 licensed contractors in my state. now we have 8,000, that means some have left the trade but a lot can't afford to keep up their ccb, bonds or insurance so they work cut throat for cash where they can.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The loans the prez got for Chrysler and GM saved a ton of jobs from disappearing. My son's included. He went back to work after more than a year, Now he is being heavily recruited by several automotive and tech companies. The loans put the confidence back in the local white collar job market.

He has been approached by Chrysler three times to come over from GM. Each time they made him an offer of more than he was making by six grand, but he turned them down. They came back to him twice more offering more money but he still turned them down.

The job sounded good but it had no benefits no holiday pay no OT no vacation.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

Unions 
Go start your own trade politics on hvac-talk.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You make it sound like you don't like it over there.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> You make it sound like you don't like it over there.


This place, as you said in the Trane heat pump thread, is about DIYing. Pricing out contractor is out of scope, and discussion of health care benefits FOR contractors? Way off topic, I think. Do you disagree?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Which is why this thread is on the line (and has been) for going to the off topic forum, also.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Unions
> Go start your own trade politics on hvac-talk.


I really feel for you guy...you just are an unhappy person aren't you?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

So how does your supplier treat you when you recieve a damaged piece of equipment from them.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> So how does your supplier treat you when you recieve a damaged piece of equipment from them.


 

Have you forgoten ?? He doesn't have a supplier.:no: That's what this thread was /is about . Him not being able to obtain parts from supplier


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yeah but other guys do..


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> yeah but other guys do..


 

My bad. Thought you were asking HVAC NW that question.


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

HVAC_NW said:


> I went to a Ruud wholesale distributor to purchase optional parts for my A/C and they refused to sell it to me. They asked "are you a heating contractor?" and when I said no, I'm told I can't buy it from them.
> 
> :furious:
> 
> I see no other reason than ensuring job security for Ruud Reliable contractor network. If I purchased a component from them that is easily replaced, that's going to prevent a contractor from being able to have his service call and sell that part at markup


Two main reasons why the distributers will not sell to homeowners-
1) Too many warranty claims because the homeowner didnt wire it correctly. 
2) Distributers have large accounts that give them the business and makes the biggest profits for that particular supply house. Those large accounts do not like it when homeowners are sold parts by the distributers. So the distributers are looking out for the dealers that make the profit off that part you couldnt buy from the supply house.
Lets say the supplier gave in and sold it at list price with no warranty in case you didnt install the part correctly. Would you still purchase the part?
Remember why we have to profit from parts- overhead is a killer. Insurance, gas, workmanscomp, salaries, tools, and it goes on and on. 

Do you believe that paying say $200 more for someone to come to your house, diagnose the problem, leave and drive around town looking for the part, coming back and fixing it with a warranty in case it fails within a certain period is too much to pay a company to fix a problem for you to be comfortable? 

And one last thing- you can go online and get parts for just about any brand of equipment. just google it. you wont find it at the price you want probably but some sites give discounts offthe list price. But dont tell anyone I told you so. LOL


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> Supply houses suck I have been in the business for over 40 years and still hate to go to them.. the counter guys are wise guys who think they own the place and if you go to one you don't frequent often they give you the look plus the counter guys are wise guys most of the time.. I feel for the people who are not in the business that go to supply houses for a little help and parts as soon as they walk in the door the counter guys are saying OH! here comes another one. It's just not fair to anyone that has to put up with that attitude. It happens all the time Pro or Diyer. I think by law they have to sell to you as long as it is not refrigerant, not sure.
> If the stock holders or owners of the supply houses knew what goes on there every day I am sure heads would roll.


YOu are so far off and have no clue what your talking about. Until you have worked in a HVAC supply house dont judge what goes through the minds of the counter guys. Its a difficult job- I worked at Baker Distributing and some days had a landline to my ear, my cell phone to the other ear, and two people on hold and 3 people in front of me looking at me as if to say hurry up and help me!! Not only do the counter guys have to answer a neverending phone ringing all day, but the research on some of those calls you have to do to find the OEM part takes times too. I had my bad days, but I took care of my customers. When they would have to wait, they rarely grumbled over the waiting because they always got the best service from me. so be less judgemental on those that get that part you need for your customer to be comfortable, even when he is having a rough day from all the other than you contractors he has and is also taking care of.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I stand by my post.. and I do have a clue ..and I am not off base.

I do understand what you are saying regarding the phones, customers, 
and looking up parts.

But that's your job..don't take it out on me I am your customer. So chill out.. Your writing tells me what kind of counterman you are.


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

Believe me dude, if you havnt worked behind a counter- you really have no clue. 

The way you describe them and how they place themselves above customers makes me wonder- how are you treating them when you walk in the store? I Dont know what area you live in but if your supplier acts that way to their customers then something else must be going on. That side of the business isnt so great that it would cause that kind of envirnment. Why are counter guys such "wiseguys" as you call them? What would make them feel so much more important? Even though the counter guys do kinda have the power if you cant get that part anywhere else. You should appreciate that they work to get you what you need? Now if your saying they arent helping you, or just ignore your presence - then that's a problem. so take your own advise and chill out. Its nothing personal.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

COLDIRON said:


> I stand by my post.. and I do have a clue ..and I am not off base.
> 
> I do understand what you are saying regarding the phones, customers,
> and looking up parts.
> ...


I got one place that treats me less than politely if I let them. i got tired of it and reamed out the sales rep. I didn't get the dirty looks after that but it could still be better.

The manger at the local Nordyne supplier turned out to be a decent guy after I got to know him better. I do admit I drive hm nuts cause I am always calling him back cause i forgot something on the first visit.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

Only supply house I have any problems with is the rheem distributor. Some of the counter people there just don't want to wait on you. I try my best not to go there.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I think in general a lot of Journeyman techs can be condescending. I was treated that way as an apprentice and thats the way we all grow up in the trade. Ask a Journeyman at the counter a question as an apprentice and they give you that look like "isn't that the first thing they taught you at school dumbazz". Nothing personal but we all go thru it. Then you make the BIG $$ and the counterguys know you make 2-3X their wage and resent you for it. I try treat them with respect and patience but a lot of Journeymen and customers don't and they get jaded/pissed off over time and the only way to get even is to slow you down or be unco-operative. Just the nature of the biz and life IMO and experience.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> I think in general a lot of Journeyman techs can be condescending. I was treated that way as an apprentice and thats the way we all grow up in the trade. Ask a Journeyman at the counter a question as an apprentice and they give you that look like "isn't that the first thing they taught you at school dumbazz". Nothing personal but we all go thru it. Then you make the BIG $$ and the counterguys know you make 2-3X their wage and resent you for it. I try treat them with respect and patience but a lot of Journeymen and customers don't and they get jaded/pissed off over time and the only way to get even is to slow you down or be unco-operative. Just the nature of the biz and life IMO and experience.


There is "counter banter" where the contractor and and the counter guys break each other balls and it's all in good fun.

But there are counter guys whose personal mission in life is to make the techs they don't like miserable. Everything from making unnecessary long phone calls while the contractor waits, to out right lying about having a part.

it speaks badly the supply chain. and when i see a contractor finally get fed up and go off on the counter guy after so much abuse, I stand by quietly rooting on the contractor.

Ha, one contractor got so pissed he poured leak detection dye over the counter guys head.....


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

We got it good here. Counter people at the supply houses have always been helpful. If it ever seems like they all are turning testy then that's my sign it's time to start hitting the prune juice.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I try to treat them and my dispatcher nicely (even if I don't like them) as they can make my life REAL miserable.:yes:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

There is a bad apple in every bunch. 

I'm still fuming over the one guy who killed my warranty credit and charged my account. Boy did some toes get stepped on over that one.

It will be interesting how it plays out when I have to buy some parts from them.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

gibhvac said:


> Believe me dude, if you havnt worked behind a counter- you really have no clue.
> 
> The way you describe them and how they place themselves above customers makes me wonder- how are you treating them when you walk in the store? I Dont know what area you live in but if your supplier acts that way to their customers then something else must be going on. That side of the business isnt so great that it would cause that kind of envirnment. Why are counter guys such "wiseguys" as you call them? What would make them feel so much more important? Even though the counter guys do kinda have the power if you cant get that part anywhere else. You should appreciate that they work to get you what you need? Now if your saying they arent helping you, or just ignore your presence - then that's a problem. so take your own advise and chill out. Its nothing personal.


I don't take it personnal.. you need more time behind the counter. And how do you know I was never behind the counter?


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> I don't take it personnal.. you need more time behind the counter. And how do you know I was never behind the counter?


I spent 5 years behind the counter. It was a good experience and I learned a lot. NTM a nice break from workin in those hot attics. 

You dont talk like someone who has worked behind the counter. When you experience it you have a better appreciation for those guys. Your comments about how you hate going to the supply house because of the way they are wiseguys just shows you really have no respect for them. Im just saying.....


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## newtech (Mar 21, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Ha, one contractor got so pissed he poured leak detection dye over the counter guys head.....


What supply house was it.... (IMO) CGL has the best counter guy's in the biz:thumbsup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

don't know them.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

*Angry branch manager*









*ANGRY BRANCH MANAGER WHEN HE LEARNS HIS BACK ORDERS HAVE BACK ORDERED AGAIN---FOR THE FIFTH TIME.*


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

Looks just like his dad:laughing:


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## biggles (Jan 1, 2008)

all Graingers sell to home owners nationwide...just make sure you know what you need they are short on repair advice... this on-line place has loads of stuff http://www.bestbuyheatingandairconditioning.com/


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> Ha, one contractor got so pissed he poured leak detection dye over the counter guys head.....


Brah, that sounds like bro on bro drama. I wonder how much portion of HVAC techs have a record for assault & battery compared to other occupations.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Brah, that sounds like bro on bro drama. I wonder how much portion of HVAC techs have a record for assault & battery compared to other occupations.


 Let me ask you this, would YOU have filed charges if you had been that counterguy with over twenty wittnesses to back up the tech?


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Let me ask you this, would YOU have filed charges if you had been that counterguy with over twenty wittnesses to back up the tech?


From reading her previous responses I'm sure she would have. Although, the only appropriate physical response is self defense.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

hvac benny said:


> From reading *her *previous responses I'm sure *she* would have. Although, the only appropriate physical response is self defense.


 

:lol:.....wow! That one must have hurt below the belt.:laughing:


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> Let me ask you this, would YOU have filed charges if you had been that counterguy with over twenty wittnesses to back up the tech?


To back up what? That the tech felt his personal safety was in danger in presence of 20 other customers and that he felt it was prudent to pour dye on the counter guy in order to buy a few seconds to safely exit for self-defense? 

Only a volatile moron with anger management and temper tantrum issue would do something like that. 

What do you do when you go to the permit office and you find the service unacceptable for whatever reason, pour your beverage at the receptionist? 

That  is unacceptable even in grade school. That  is a criminal offense of assault, wanton destruction of property, interfering with business operation and disorderly conduct in adult world. Not that it would be a surprised if someone did it considering people shoot or scalding hot coffee on other drivers for driving behaviors that annoy them.

If someone pulled a valve stem from your tire during a busy season, you might not press charge against the guy, but your company is entitled to seek restitution from the person responsible for loss of revenue and cost associated with overtime or other expenses associated with having someone take over your calls.


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## Dog5 (Jan 3, 2011)

I had this same experience at a supply house a number of years ago when the HSI on my furnace died. Phoned around, found a place that didn't have the exact replacement but a generic that would work in the furnance whose model # I had given him. Nobody else could do better. So, I went there, they produced the part then asked if I was a Mech. contractor. I told him that no, I was an electrician. He refused to sell it to me. I actually laughed out loud, I really found it to be quite funny. There were a few HVAC contrators there who piped in defensively 'hey, it's against the law' etc. etc.  I said, 'yeah and none of you have ever done electrical work at line voltage that was outside of your scope either, right? You _always_ bring in an electrician.' They all suddenly needed to go back to what they were previously doing. :laughing:

So, I shrugged my shoulders and said, okay, I'll get it off the internet and left. You see, I'd already found the exact replacement online and it was less expensive than the generic that they had (which at a glance looked like a very poor fit and would have required splicing the wires into the old half of the wiring harness - not a big deal but really, how pathetic not to stock the proper part). It was still early in the heating season fortunately and not particularly cold yet so it was no problem waiting a few days. First thing I did when I got it was put it in my sweaty palm and ... :whistling2: ...just kidding, sorry guys, didn't mean to get your hopes up.laughing

No, I got her fired up and was polite enough to phone them up so that they could be assured that everything had gone well and of course to thank them for getting me onto buying these sorts of things online. :thumbup:


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

*Distributers selling to FYIers*

Hey man, Good for you. The internet does offer just about anything. I am a licensed contractor and a former counter salesmen for HVAC parts and will honestly say- its not against the law to sell to homeowners parts from you local HVAC distributor. That is bogus. Just an easy "OUT". As I am sure you already know. Like I said, its all about looking out for those contractors that spend thousands with these distributers that they will not sell to the homeowner. If it had been me, I would sell to you in your situation- you being a licensed electrician. Next time you hear that about "its the law"- call the police so they can determine what the law says. And oh, you didn't hear that from me. LOL.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

I am sure if you went to a local contractor, who deals with in your case Rudd, you could buy your part across the counter, pay their mu and still save on the over all repair compared to the guy who has to completely rely on the same contractor.

Who know's if you talk real nice to him, he may give you a 10% discount.


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## gibhvac (Oct 13, 2010)

If the homeowner wouldn't take no for an answer. The thing to do would be to sell to the homeowner at list price- explain No warranty if the part did not work or if they wired it incorrectly, etc. That would usually take care of the homeowner- like it or not.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Guys, the real bottom line here is wholesalers exist to serve the pro.
A contractor i s gonna buy a helluva lot more stuff from the wholesaler than the DIY. 

If i was a supplier I would not sell to my contractors customers.

There are just too many choices to take your business in areas like this.

I would not want to jeopardize my relationship with my contractors over a couple extra thousand i could make selling to Diy when the contractor buys ten times that


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

gibhvac said:


> I am a licensed contractor and a former counter salesmen for HVAC parts and will honestly say- its not against the law to sell to homeowners parts from you local HVAC distributor. That is bogus. Just an easy "OUT". As I am sure you already know. Like I said, its all about looking out for those contractors that spend thousands with these distributers that they will not sell to the homeowner. If it had been me, I would sell to you in your situation- you being a licensed electrician. Next time you hear that about "its the law"- call the police so they can determine what the law says. And oh, you didn't hear that from me. LOL.


Actually, in some areas it is against the law. My area is not one of those areas. But check out Washington state. You need a low voltage electrical license to run a thermostat wire. Electrical Wholesale houses can't sell to non licensed people. 

As for calling the police. The police don't determine what the law is. They enforce the law, if it is criminal law, but do not get involved with civil law(EG: call them if your cell phone company over charges you by what your contract says, they don't care, you have to take it up with your cell company, or get a lawyer).


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Actually, in some areas it is against the law. My area is not one of those areas. But check out Washington state. You need a low voltage electrical license to run a thermostat wire. Electrical Wholesale houses can't sell to non licensed people.
> 
> As for calling the police. The police don't determine what the law is. They enforce the law, if it is criminal law, but do not get involved with civil law(EG: call them if your cell phone company over charges you by what your contract says, they don't care, you have to take it up with your cell company, or get a lawyer).


Been is absolutely right. 
Around here, as an example, there is no law restricting the sale of HVAC equip to non licensed persons. However---the code says you have to be a licensed contractor with an HVAC Equipment cert on your state license to be able to install HVAC equip, furnaces and ACs and the rest.

So, according t the Code, John Doe can buy a furnace from anybody who will sell to him. But if he wants to install the furnace the Code also says that the HO installing the furnace must pull a Home Owners Permit and prove he is competent to install it.

At the Building Authority's discretion a verbal or written examination may be administered to the HO to prove his ability to safely install the equipment.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Actually, in some areas it is against the law. My area is not one of those areas. But check out Washington state. You need a low voltage electrical license to run a thermostat wire.* Electrical Wholesale houses can't sell to non licensed people.*


I had no idea. Please do tell. Wholesale houses are defined as ____ under RCW ___ and which RCW states they can not sale to "non licensed" people and what is licensed people under the definition of these codes? 

I googled quickly but didn't find my answer, but since you seem to know, perhaps you could share your knowledge?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

A parts seller runs his own business and can set limitation on the customers if they chose to lose some gross sales $'s at the expense of running up the number of employees required to service a small segment of their market. The seller is also allowed to grant discounts to categories of customers based on professionalism/licensing/loyalty and volumes. Obviously, any seller would be foolish to waste the time on a small volume, not frequently seen customer that is just looking for free advice to try to finish a job that was mainly done with EBay purchased materials. The regular, knowledgable customers are recognized and can be able to open an account according to the sellers requirements. There is no law that says the buyer has to shop there.

If you are frequent purchaser you can get qualified. I have seen parts suppliers that have two or more positions for customers with accounts and one for others. When the technicians servicing the regular accounts are free, they move over to the non-account position. They cannot afford to keep a regular customer or contractor waiting.

Dick


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> I had no idea. Please do tell. Wholesale houses are defined as ____ under RCW ___ and which RCW states they can not sale to "non licensed" people and what is licensed people under the definition of these codes?
> 
> I googled quickly but didn't find my answer, but since you seem to know, perhaps you could share your knowledge?


Its in 62 somewhere.

You can look for it in there.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> I had no idea. Please do tell. Wholesale houses are defined as ____ under RCW ___ and which RCW states they can not sale to "non licensed" people and what is licensed people under the definition of these codes?
> 
> I googled quickly but didn't find my answer, but since you seem to know, perhaps you could share your knowledge?


If you were a true hvac pro you would know that....it's in every business class I have took.:laughing:


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

hvaclover said:


> If you were a true hvac pro you would know that....it's in every business class I have took.:laughing:


Really? So you expect that people know the fine points of regulations in all 50 states?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Really? So you expect that people know the fine points of regulations in all 50 states?


As they apply to the needs of the company doing business in a given state.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Really? So you expect that people know the fine points of regulations in all 50 states?


No, they only need to know the regs in "their" state, not all 50. :laughing:

No one knows every reg in every state. Let alone in every local area. Yes, local areas can add their own restrictions. 



A bit off topic, but an example of local regs stronger then state regs.

In SC. There is a Holiday Inn. On one side of the dining room, you can have an alcoholic beverage with your meal. In the other side you can't. The county line runs through the Dining room, so part of the dining room is in a dry county. So its illegal for them to sell and serve an alcoholic beverage to anyone on that one side of the dining room. 

A waitress that use to work there. Married one of my best friends, so thats how I know about that.


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## HVAC_NW (Oct 15, 2007)

beenthere said:


> No, they only need to know the regs in "their" state, not all 50. :laughing:
> 
> No one knows every reg in every state. Let alone in every local area. Yes, local areas can add their own restrictions.
> 
> ...


Sounds like an urban legend to me. The property is probably assessed a tax. Is the property assessed into two with square footage measured for each side and pay separate counties separately?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Oh, I don't know, I believe it. After perusing through some of the small town laws that are still in effect 100 years later....
Stupid things like (for instance, made up) You cannot walk your chicken in front of the church while a service is in session, or your cow needs to be on a leash if you walk it on the south side of the main street. I can't remember any examples, but I'm sure you guys know of or can google up some doozies. lol

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DangerMouse said:


> Oh, I don't know, I believe it. After perusing through some of the small town laws that are still in effect 100 years later....
> Stupid things like (for instance, made up) You cannot walk your chicken in front of the church while a service is in session, or your cow needs to be on a leash if you walk it on the south side of the main street. I can't remember any examples, but I'm sure you guys know of or can google up some doozies. lol
> 
> DM


That is completely believable.....I'm 59 and I can still remember horse drawn ****** wagons in Detroit.....my mom was a farm girl and would always meet the ****** man with a bucket of water and a circular box of Quaker Oats for the horse.
The ****** guy was cool too...used to unhitch the horse and let us ride it while my Mom fed it. 

AAAAAHHHHH...the good times (shed a little tear of joy at the memory).


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HVAC_NW said:


> Sounds like an urban legend to me. The property is probably assessed a tax. Is the property assessed into two with square footage measured for each side and pay separate counties separately?



I doubt she knows how the property is accessed for taxes. As far as how accurately the sq ft measurement is for taxes. Thats generally something a waitress doesn't need to know in order to wait tables.

The architect would have had an accurate drawing of it for both counties though.

Many areas take their dry laws very serious.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

No we know he does-not do taxes as well as hvac.:laughing::jester:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dumb/Strange laws:

New Yorkers cannot dissolve a marriage for irreconcilable differences, unless they both agree to it.

Florida: You may not fart in a public place after 6 P.

Texas: It is illegal for one to shoot a buffalo from the second story of a hotel.

Carmel California: Women may not wear high heels while in the city limits.

In Pennsylvania: Fireworks stores may not sell fireworks to Pennsylvania residents.

In Virginia: There is a state law prohibiting “corrupt practices of bribery by any person other than candidates.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The funniest one I ever heard was a certain city made it illegal to sell doenut 
holes.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

There are some houses here that, were built in 2 different counties. The master bedroom determines which county gets the property taxes and permits.To make both counties happy. The builder would build 1 house with master bedroom in 1 county and the next house the master bedroom would be in the other county


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

In Ohio, it is against state law to get a fish drunk...

In Missouri, It is Illegal To Drive With An Uncaged Bear (Caged Bears Are OK).....

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DangerMouse said:


> In Ohio, it is against state law to get a fish drunk...
> 
> In Missouri, It is Illegal To Drive With An Uncaged Bear (Caged Bears Are OK).....
> 
> DM



Hey DM!
It's a historical fact the bears were used as the Designated Driver when the boys went out drinking. The bears had to be caged between bar hops.:thumbsup:


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