# 3 Way Switch - Wiring Help



## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

I've done a little bit of searching on the forums but I'm finding I'm still a little confused over it. We just moved in to our first house and I'm somebody who always wants to figure things out on my own. We re-painted the room and we're swapping out all sockets because the house has 3 wire wiring yet only 2 prong outlets, hence the upgrade (plus it's a good time to change color to match the new paint jobs).

I'll try to explain this best I can... So we have two 3 way switches and an outlet that is controlled by it. We have no ceiling lighting so getting this outlet working is rather important as it'll control an area light.

The outlet has 1 tab on it I broke off in order to make it work with the old switches. A week later here I am trying to replace the switches. I wired them up the same way the other switches were, but the light switch will not work. I have to assume the 1958 switches are a bit different than today's.

There's a light switch by the front door. It has a bunch of wires in the back bound in wire nuts, which tells me this switch is the "middle man" switch as I first thought when I looked at it. By the kitchen doorway is the other switch, which has no wire nuts at all, simply 3 wires coming down - red white black.

I'm hearing 14/2 and 14/3 and common this etc. I'm just a little unsure. I've watched videos on YouTube on how they work but I'm kind of losing track of how the different color wires can appear to have different jobs depending on their arrangement.

Is there a blunt way to just say red wire goes here and here, black wire here to here, etc.?

Thanks guys!


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

Every situation is different, best thing to do is post pictures.


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

*Hope this other thread helps!*



roasted said:


> Is there a blunt way to just say red wire goes here and here, black wire here to here, etc.?
> 
> Thanks guys!


I had some luck with a similar problem. Check out the advice I got on this thread:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/need-help-twin-3-way-switches-130472/

Hope this helps!

Cheers!

Dugly


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

roasted said:


> I'm hearing 14/2 and 14/3 and common this etc. I'm just a little unsure. I've watched videos on YouTube on how they work but I'm kind of losing track of how the different color wires can appear to have different jobs depending on their arrangement.
> Is there a blunt way to just say red wire goes here and here, black wire here to here, etc.?


Short answer is NO because you can't assume the person who had his hands in there before you followed certain rules.
-In general a conductor with a continuous white or gray covering shall be used ONLY as a grounded-circuit conductor(aka neutral), but in certain switch applications a white conductor can be used as a hot conductor but should be marked with black tape indicating so.
-Ungrounded conductors(hot) in general can be any color other than white, gray, green or green with yellow stripes.

Like Juliuus asked post a few pictures.


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

[QUOTE="hammerlane]
-In general a conductor with a continuous white or gray covering shall be used ONLY as a grounded-circuit conductor(aka neutral)
-Ungrounded conductors(hot) in general can be any color other than white, gray, green or green with yellow stripes[/QUOTE]

just because that's what code says doesn't mean it's followed. You have very often the white of a 14-3 being used as a common.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Julius793 said:


> just because that's what code says doesn't mean it's followed. You have very often the white of a 14-3 being used as a common.


Yeah I did edit my statement about a white being used in a switch loop


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

Alright, we're getting somewhere but I'm not entirely sure this is correct. Here's what I'm seeing now that I switched the wires according to the advice in the thread linked above.

Like I said, there's 2 switches that control 1 outlet. We'll call them B and A. A is by the front door. B is by the kitchen entry. A has additional wiring and wire nuts in the back of the box, B simply has the red white black.

A up, B down, light off.
A down, B down, light off.
A down, B up, light off.
A up, B up, light on.

In short, the ONLY way I can control the light by the kitchen entry (which we will use 99.9% of the time) I must have the switch by the front door, switch B, turned up. Otherwise, no dice no matter what other combination I use.

Is this how 3 way switches are supposed to work when there's 2 light switches on one outlet? I kind of thought it wouldn't matter, and that when the light is off, flipping either one would turn it on, etc. But that's not what I'm seeing here. A must be up in order for B to even function as a light switch.

Did I goof? Thanks for all of the help. :thumbsup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Is there a blunt way to just say red wire goes here and here, black wire here to here, etc.?



Nope but you should be able to figure the wiring out ... this is one way it could be. If power comes from the receptacle to the 3 ways let us know and I'll draw a wiring diagram for that.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

You goofed somewhere. Probably paying too much attention to wire color than what the wire is functioning as.
If A up,and B down = light off
then either A down or B up should = light on

Do you understand the basics of a 3-way switch? On your switches A and B, the black terminal on each is called the "common" terminal. One of the "commons" should always have power to it and the "common" of the other switch should be connected to---in your case----outlet.

The other two terminals....brass in color... on the 3-ways are called "travelers". They connect to each other. Meaning one "traveler" on switch A connects to one "traveler" on switch B. And the other "traveler" on switch A connects to the other "traveler" on switch B. Doesn't matter which to which.

And of course the ground should be attached to the green ground screw of each switch.

Stubbie showed a good photo but
A very simple configuration is shown below:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Can you post photos of the wiring of the switches, inside the switch boxes and the wiring of the outlet?

DO you own a meter to checking voltage?


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## psilva8 (Jan 12, 2012)

edit due to: explanations above me being far superior to mine.


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

I'll do my best to get pictures. A lot of my stuff is still in boxes because we moved in not too long ago. I'll see if I can track it down. If not maybe the old trusty cell phone would suffice.

Just to make sure, is it possible I could have goofed with the actual outlet installation? When I was in conversation with somebody at the local hardware store, they told me I should have broken off both tabs. However, users here told me to break off just one (I forget which but there was a specific one). When I broke both like the other guy said, power went full time to the outlet. When I put a new one in and just broke one, it operated as expected.

I understand that the travelers can cross each other and it won't matter. The way I wired it up now (based on color) is the white wire is common and black and red are travelers. So the white wire goes to the black screw on each light switch, while the red and black are on the other two brass connectors.

I'll have to take a closer look at it when I get home. Thanks guys!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

hammerlane said:


> You goofed somewhere. Probably paying too much attention to wire color than what the wire is functioning as.
> If A up,and B down = light off
> then either A down or B up should = light on
> 
> ...


I agree it is a simple diagram but it doesn't match the configuration or the description in this thread. If you change it then it may be a better diagram of the situation Roasted is experiencing.

EDIT: I should mention that it does show a good simple example of how three ways would work in a common installation. Maybe that is what you intended.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

roasted said:


> Just to make sure, is it possible I could have goofed with the actual outlet installation? When I was in conversation with somebody at the local hardware store, they told me I should have broken off both tabs. However, users here told me to break off just one (I forget which but there was a specific one). When I broke both like the other guy said, power went full time to the outlet. When I put a new one in and just broke one, it operated as expected.


You can share the neutral wire for both sides of the receptacle(tab not broken) only if the hots to each side of the receptacle are part of the same circuit or part of a mult-wire branch circuit. 

Like the photo stubbie showed, the hots to each side of the receptacle are part of the same circuit so there is no need to break the tab on the neutral side of the receptacle.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> I should mention that it does show a good simple example of how three ways would work in a common installation. Maybe that is what you intended.


Exactly. Didn't "clutter up" the diagram with neutrals or grounds. 

But like you know its hard to guess where his power is being brought into...the switch box or outlet box...and what other devices are grabbing power in these boxes.


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

Well, it's been a busy couple of days, but here are the pictures. I hope these are enough, if not I can take more as we finally found the camera with more unpacking. :thumbsup:










This here is the switch by the kitchen entry. It'll likely be utilized 90% of the time for turning this particular outlet on/off.










This is the other switch by the front door. From the way it looks, this switch looks busier with wiring in the back than the outlet does that I unfortunately don't have a picture for. The only thing that is different about the outlet is that here is a red wire in it and I had to break a metal tab for it to work. Other than that, the outlet looks normal.

With the above wiring that you can see in the pictures, the 2nd picture must be flipped up in order for the 1st switch to do anything at all. So if 2nd picture is down, 1st switch is useless. If 2nd switch is up, it allows 1st switch to turn the switch on and off. So, what did I do wrong? Any idea?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

look at the photo below, do wires A, B, C, which are attached to the switch leave the switch-box as part of the same cable in the upper left corner of the box??

Or is red wire "B" at the switch coiled around the red/black pair???

Maybe separate the wires at the switch and take another picture to show where they are leaving the switch box at


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Find out which one of the wires A thru C is always HOT. You're going to have to use a meter and find a neutral or ground wire to test each wire A thru C to see which one is always HOT.

What does the 2nd switch in the photo above control. 
What other wiring is in this box.
The box where the recepacle is, what color wire is attached to the brass screws on the receptacle?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

see photo below


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## hawkeye11 (Feb 11, 2012)

roasted said:


> With the above wiring that you can see in the pictures, the 2nd picture must be flipped up in order for the 1st switch to do anything at all. So if 2nd picture is down, 1st switch is useless. If 2nd switch is up, it allows 1st switch to turn the switch on and off. So, what did I do wrong? Any idea?


Well, as far as I can tell from the pictures posted, it looks like the original wiring job used the red going to the 2nd three-way switch as the feed. If this is the case, then to fix it: place the reds on the dark screws, and the blacks and the whites on the other screws. From what I can tell looking at these pics, that should fix it.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

hawkeye11 said:


> Well, as far as I can tell from the pictures posted, it looks like the original wiring job used the red going to the 2nd three-way switch as the feed. If this is the case, then to fix it: place the reds on the dark screws, and the blacks and the whites on the other screws. From what I can tell looking at these pics, that should fix it.


Yeah its hard to tell from the one picture with the two switches whether the red wire attached to the switch is the one leaving the box or the one coiled around the black connecting to a HOT somewhere behind that 2nd switch in the box. 

Thats why I asked him to check which wire is always HOT or provide a better picture of the wiring inside that box.


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## hawkeye11 (Feb 11, 2012)

hammerlane said:


> Yeah its hard to tell from the one picture with the two switches whether the red wire attached to the switch is the one leaving the box or the one coiled around the black connecting to a HOT somewhere behind that 2nd switch in the box.
> 
> Thats why I asked him to check which wire is always HOT or provide a better picture of the wiring inside that box.


Well, that wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. From the picture, you can tell that the black and white are feed through the the 2nd switch, and are obviously the travellers. Therefore, one of the reds is the power and the other red is the feed to the switched outlet. It doesn't matter whether you feed power into the first switch or 2nd switch.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

hawkeye11 said:


> Well, as far as I can tell from the pictures posted, it looks like the original wiring job used the red going to the 2nd three-way switch as the feed. If this is the case, then to fix it: place the reds on the dark screws, and the blacks and the whites on the other screws. From what I can tell looking at these pics, that should fix it.


I agree

Since a red is showing up at the receptacle then one of the 14/3's is taking power and switched power and neutral to the receptacle. Which means incoming power is entering the switch box. It looks like a red is coming from the right twisted with the blacks .. it then exists the top left. That is power to the second switch.


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

The red in question that I am using is the same red that was used on the original switch. The red that's tucked further back in (if you look really close) is wire nut'd to another black wire. I'm not sure where they came from or where they go. I just know the red white and black you see are THE red white and blacks that were used with the original switches.

I'm not an electrician, and this 3 way stuff is rather confusing, but to me with my limited experience, seeing a red and black tucked in the back, albeit maybe not part of this direct situation, suggests that red and black are safe to be tied together, and therefore maybe they're the travelers, with the white being common... which would suggest to me that the white wire would go on the black screw of each light switch. Eh, nope.

I'm getting a tester tomorrow to figure out which wire is hot, so we should have more answers then. The confusing part is when I look up wiring guides online, more times than not there's 2 blacks and no white. I don't have 2 blacks, just 1 of each, so I get confused over which one of their blacks I should be looking at as my white. Make sense? Eh... Hopefully we'll crack it tomorrow! Thanks for the help guys! I'd appreciate any further input if you guys feel there's something more I should know. Thanks again.


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## jamm51 (Sep 27, 2011)

I think Hawkeye11 has got it.
Just switch red and black wires on both switches.

In this case the black and white wires are the travelers. They go on the brass colored screws.
The remaining red wire goes on the black colored 'common' screw.

That should work. Let us know.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS:

1. Red wire "B" below, where does it continue to, "D" or "E"
2. Do wires A, B and C leave the switch box in the same cable? 

Also when you use terms like: The *red in question* that I am using is *the same red* that was used on *the original switch*. *The red *that's tucked further back in (if you look really close) is wire nut'd to *another black wire*. I'm not sure where they came from or where they go. I just know t*he red white and black* you see are *THE red white and blacks* that were used with the original switches.

When you refer to "the red in question" and "the same red" and "the original switch" and "the red" it gets real hard to guess which red and which same red and which switch and which the red that you are referring to. Thats why it is sometimes easy to label items in the photos so that when you say, "the same red" or "the red in question" or "THE red white and blacks" others know which red in question means "the red in question" to you.

We'll try and help out though.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

hawkeye11 said:


> Well, that wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. From the picture, you can tell that the black and white are feed through the the 2nd switch, and are obviously the travellers.


I'm no psychic and can't tell anything conclusive from them pictures. He has had everything disconnected and reattached them somehow in some fashion we're trying to figure out. If he would JUST DETERMINE which conductor at the two 3-way switches IS ALWAYS HOT, and which conductor at the other 3-way switch is connected to the receptacle we could continue more easily.



hawkeye11 said:


> Therefore, one of the reds is the power and the other red is the feed to the switched outlet. It doesn't matter whether you feed power into the first switch or 2nd switch.


I agree. Which switch gets the power does not matter. BUT is the power coming from where the load is...which would mean there are unseen connections being made at that point which he has not shown.

Hawk...do you know for sure whether he has:

1>POWER into SWITCH---LOAD----SWITCH

or

2>POWER into SWITCH---SWITCH----LOAD

or

3>POWER into LOAD---SWITCH---SWITCH

Like I circled in photo 1 below, he may have some confusion going on at the receptacle on which wires are connected to where.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> I agree
> 
> Since a red is showing up at the receptacle then one of the 14/3's is taking power and switched power and neutral to the receptacle. Which means incoming power is entering the switch box. It looks like a red is coming from the right twisted with the blacks .. it then exists the top left. That is power to the second switch.



Stubbie: why are saying that both 3-ways are receiving power? Or am I just misinterpreting your comment? You have to know that one 3-way gets the power(attached to the common terminal) then the other 3-way has attached to its common terminal the conductor to the load.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

hammerlane said:


> Stubbie: why are saying that both 3-ways are receiving power? Or am I just misinterpreting your comment? You have to know that one 3-way gets the power(attached to the common terminal) then the other 3-way has attached to its common terminal the conductor to the load.


The receptacle as I understand it is controlled by the switch either 1/2 of it or the entire receptacle. Roasted says the receptacle has a red wire terminated to it. That means a 14/3 shows up at the receptacle. The odds are power is not sent to the switch from the receptacle because you would not need the white wire. You would need it if power came to the switch box and then you sent it to the receptacle.

If a red is on the receptacle then it would likely be switched power and we know that it is obvious the wrong wire is on a common screw. So one of the reds must to go to common. I say this also because it looks apparent that a red is connected in a wire nut with the blacks in behind that other switch. It also looks like a black coming from the same location enters the upper left into a different 14/3 than the red. That in my opinion is constant power to the receptacle. When I look at the red(B) in that 14/3 it goes to a traveler which would be incorrect.

Now that is based on what I see and I agree Roasted is having a difficult time explaining and has not been able to answer your questions so we can understand them. When I encounter difficulty with the OP understanding how to explain the wiring and not providing pictures that show us clearly where the wires go without having to 'guess', as we have here, I try to give him the best possibility from what I am able to see in the pictures provided.


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## hawkeye11 (Feb 11, 2012)

hammerlane said:


> Stubbie: why are saying that both 3-ways are receiving power? Or am I just misinterpreting your comment? You have to know that one 3-way gets the power(attached to the common terminal) then the other 3-way has attached to its common terminal the conductor to the load.


Haha, hammerlane, I don't know why you seem intent on confusing the issue and cluttering up this thread with nonsense. The three-way shown is very simple: black and white are the travellers and go on the brass screws, the reds are the power and the switched wire for the receptacle and therefore go on the dark screws. That's it. Question over, thread over. Just do it, so we can move on.


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## hawkeye11 (Feb 11, 2012)

hammerlane said:


> Hawk...do you know for sure whether he has:
> 
> 1>POWER into SWITCH---LOAD----SWITCH
> 
> ...


And again, no I don't know for sure obviously. But again, it doesn't matter. It;s obvious from the pictures that red IS the feed, and therefore the other red is the SWITCHED load. Connect them to the dark screws. End of story.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

hawkeye11 said:


> And again, no I don't know for sure obviously. But again, it doesn't matter. It;s obvious from the pictures that red IS the feed, and therefore the other red is the SWITCHED load.


If you don't know for sure which is the power, then how is it OBVIOUS that the red is the feed?? :laughing::laughing:

If the poster would get a meter out we would know for sure.

I think we both know how to wire up a 3-way...I'm not doubting that on your end. If you think I'm cluttering thats your call.

But you can't assume that the black and white are the travellers and the reds are the power. The poster has had all the wires detached and who knows what connections are being made at the receptacle. 



but roasted if you want to follow hawkeyes suggestion and just switch both red and black wires on each switch without knowing which wires are the power, which are travellers and which is going to the load that is your call. I am not suggesting the trial and error method.

Good luck


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> and I agree Roasted is having a difficult time explaining and has not been able to answer your questions so we can understand them. When I encounter difficulty with the OP understanding how to explain the wiring and not providing pictures that show us clearly where the wires go without having to 'guess', as we have here, I try to give him the best possibility from what I am able to see in the pictures provided.


WELL SAID:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## jamm51 (Sep 27, 2011)

hammerlane said:


> If you don't know for sure which is the power, then how is it OBVIOUS that the red is the feed?? :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> > It was obvious to me from the pictures. Thats why I agreed with Hawk.
> ...


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

jammin06 said:


> It was obvious to me from the pictures. Thats why I agreed with Hawk. The op said the three wires are the original three. He just mixed them around.
> Black and white are travelers, red is common.


That 2nd switch in the 2-gang box...the switch that is still screwed into the box...looks relatively new also.

I think the poster has done more wire swapping that what is being described. 

I'd still like to know what is going on at that receptacle box to see how the travellers from each of the 3-ways are paired up.

Anyway we'll see.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This is what appears to be the correct wiring. The odds are high that the red twisted with the blacks is power to a 3 way switch...it goes on a common screw. A red is not on a common screw so a red needs to be moved to common. I can't really tell 100% which 14/3 cable the power red goes to but it doesn't matter because the other red goes to the receptacle. So both reds need to go to common. That leaves the black it has to be a traveler.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> This is what appears to be the correct wiring. The odds are high that the red twisted with the blacks is power to a 3 way switch...it goes on a common screw. A red is not on a common screw so a red needs to be moved to common. I can't really tell 100% which 14/3 cable the power red goes to but it doesn't matter because the other red goes to the receptacle. So both reds need to go to common. That leaves the black it has to be a traveler.


Its possible. I dont know whats going on at the receptacle and how what should be travelers are paired up there if this is a switch-load-switch configuration but seeing as if the original poster hasnt been back in 2 days he has either solved the problem or is tired of my questions and speculation. 

I have to go watch some paint dry now.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

hammerlane said:


> Its possible. I dont know whats going on at the receptacle and how what should be travelers are paired up there if this is a switch-load-switch configuration but seeing as if the original poster hasnt been back in 2 days he has either solved the problem or is tired of my questions and speculation.
> 
> I have to go watch some paint dry now.


Yes that is all it is ..a possibility .... but a good one ....


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

Sorry for the delay. Things have been busy around here! I tackled the switches and sure enough the red wire was the ticket. Both switches work predictably now. I assume that means the black and white were travelers?? Red went to the black screw while the other two went to brass...

Thanks for everyone's help!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Glad you came back with an update ..... :thumbsup:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

roasted said:


> Sorry for the delay. Things have been busy around here! I tackled the switches and sure enough the red wire was the ticket. Both switches work predictably now. I assume that means the black and white were travelers?? Red went to the black screw while the other two went to brass...


Good to hear. Too bad I gave you the run around when it was just that simple.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

hammerlane said:


> Good to hear. Too bad I gave you the run around when it was just that simple.


It happens don't sweat it.


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## roasted (Jan 23, 2012)

hammerlane said:


> Good to hear. Too bad I gave you the run around when it was just that simple.


More information is better than not enough. Even if it wasn't the ticket in this scenario, it could easily be the ticket to another scenario. Thanks to everyone's help in this thread, your's included, I'm better prepared for the other sets of 3 way switches we still have lingering around the house! 

Thanks again everyone!


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