# Issue with a definite purpose contactor and photo cell.



## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

A standard 15 amp single pole breaker I assume and is dedicated to the
exterior lights.............

The hot wire from the breaker goes to the "LINE" terminal,the neutral wire goes to the "NEUTRAL" terminal both at the photocell module.A switch leg wire will go from the "LOAD" terminal on the photocell to the lights along with a spliced neutral picked up at the photocell.

When the photocell sensor closes the electronic circuitry in the photo cell and it in turn picks up an integral electronic relay closing the load circuitry and the "LOAD" terminal becomes hot turning the lights on.In the morning when the photocell sensor now opens the electronic circuitry dropping out the relay which in this case is an off delay and it remains closed for the preset time.

When testing the photocell by actuating the sensor by hand remember that the photocell must have power(120v) so be careful.

Check your local AHJ to see if a ground on the lights is required or it may be required by the manufacturer,

A 3 position "HAND-OFF-AUTO" selector switch would be nice to have in case the PC failed.

df


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## bigmacfann (Jul 29, 2010)

Delta Force,

I appreciate your response! In looking at the controller, I am having some difficulty seeing where the Line, Neutral and Load connect. The photocell is easy to tell which wire is which. If you look closely at the bottom of the image of the controller, you'll see he has the red wire from the photo cell and the white wire from the photo cell connected to the controller. The black wire from the photocell is twisted in a wire nut and connects to the controller on the bottom as well as goes to the load center. There is another black wire that comes in from the load center and connects to the top of the controller. I'll take a picture of the whole system a little better and post it if I have further issues. Thanks again.


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

The red wire from the PC is the switch leg circuit to energize the contactor coil,the white is the neutral to the coil from the PC and is spliced somewhere else to provide the light and PC neutral, one of the black wires is from the wire nut you spoke of and goes on to the PC from the wire nut the other black wire is the hot to the line side of the contactor main switch,the other side (also black)of the main switch has to go the lights. 

I'm pretty sure that is what it is can you meter it out and verify?

Note in the image, you have 4 terminals and you got 4 wires,I think there is an oops in the wiring when that one terminal does not have a wire and one of the others has 2 wires,kinda suspicious:whistling2:

df


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Test the photocell assembly separately by powering it, running a lamp from the red wire to the neutral wire and taping over the cell and waiting your two minutes for the bimetallic switch to make contact.

I guess you should also try to figure out which of these contactor terminals goes to the 120 V coil.


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

We are riding on the same train Yoyizit:thumbsup:

df


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## Proby (Jul 17, 2010)

You need to have a licensed electrician work on this. This is not a DIY project, it is work on an apartment building in the state of California, a state that requires a licensed electrician to do electrical work on multifamily dwellings.


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Right on Proby,,,,,,,,,,,,I assumed the electrician referenced in the OP fit that mold, maybe not.

df


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## bigmacfann (Jul 29, 2010)

Here are 3 pictures to help illustrate the whole thing a little better:




























Based on this, could someone give me a wiring diagram? I used wire 1, 2 and 3 because there are 3 black wires coming from the load center. Wires 1 and 2 plug into 20 amp breakers and wire 3 is the wire coming from the lighting circuit. In this current configuration I can press the black button in the center of the controller and all the exterior lights come on. The photocell is not causing the controller to do anything which makes me think the photocell needs to be wired up differently. The guy that originally wired this up is a commercial electrician, but I can't get a hold of him and if there were any trade I'm comfortable with, it's electrical -- plus, I own this place, so I take all the responsibility. Thank you for your help everyone.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

delta force said:


> We are riding on the same train Yoyizit:thumbsup:
> 
> df


I can't believe Siemens doesn't label their terminals. :huh:

One reason that it doesn't work is that the photocell neutral is not supplying power to the photocell.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

delta force said:


> Right on Proby,,,,,,,,,,,,I assumed the electrician referenced in the OP fit that mold, maybe not.
> 
> df


well, OP said electrician was done and left. The guy asking questions is the owner/manager. That means there is not an electrician doing the work and based on the simple screw up that is causing the problem, I would say it wasn't an electrician doing the work before either.

and not only is the electrical a simple screw up that an electrician shouldn't miss, the installation of the box is not to code either.

Oh, on top of everything else, OP never said it was an electrician doing the work, just ""someone"


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Here is the answer in my opinion

#1 is the hot from the breaker to the contactor main power contact,line side.

#2 is the hot for the PC.

#3 is the is the switch leg from load side of the contactor main power contact and goes to the lights.

The red is the switch leg from the PC to the hot side of the contactor coil.

White is the neutral for both the PC and the contactor coil

Now it appears the neutral from the load center is missing,if you find that and connect it to the contactor in parallel with the white that is already there and I think you got it. 

A neutral conductor must leave the the load center and pick up the lights
and then backfeed the contactor but it has been dropped somewhere.

I still don't think the contactor is wired correctly.

If you push the test button on the contactor and it makes a closure between the red wire and #3 and the photocell is made(or failed closed) the lights will come on,,,,,,,,,,,but as you say it doesn't work as wired,that why I feel it is wrong,,,,,,,,,the red wire and #3 should not be the same point in the schematic.

If you want a schematic I will post one up

df


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

at least give him correct info if you are going to do it.

You are missing a neutral from the panel to the contactor and the PC. Other than that, it will work.

and since the guy said he was going to work safe, he might turn off the breakers while he has the contactor flopping around like he does.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I am in the same boat you allready missing a netural conductor to get the photocell working and the contractor as well.

DF.,

Make sure you draw up a correct connection for it.

Now to the OP please turn off the breaker now to the luminaire circuit and the contractor a short or arc to the contractor can destory the Photocell very fast so turn it off please.

Do not turn it back on until the netural conductor is there to get it function properly.

Merci.
Marc


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## bigmacfann (Jul 29, 2010)

To clarify to everyone concerned (thank you for the concern BTW), I have the entire system shut off at the main breaker. I'm not interested in playing with a hot system for this!!  In addition, I am the owner of this property. The original person that did this works for an electrical contractor in Arizona and did it as a quick favor. At the time he did the work, we had no power from Southern California Edison yet. We had to power it with a generator to test it.

Here's what I think everyone is telling me, I need to connect a white wire from where the PC's white wire is connected to the contactor to the neutral bar in the load center. Does that sound correct? Maybe I should take a look at that schematic "delta force" was talking about. Thanks again!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

bigmacfann said:


> .
> 
> Here's what I think everyone is telling me, I need to connect a white wire from where the PC's white wire is connected to the contactor to the neutral bar in the load center. Does that sound correct? Maybe I should take a look at that schematic "delta force" was talking about. Thanks again!


Oui { Yes } that is correct that why it was missing in first place that the key issue why the photocell and contractor is not working at all.

Once you install the netural in there it will function correct and BTW use the 4.0mm² { #12 AWG } size only due it will match to the 20 amp breaker you have on it.

Merci.
Marc


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Ya need to toss an EGC in there as well. Since the guy that put that nipple in there screwed it up, you do not have an effective ground to the small box


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

I got a couple of questions what type lights are you switching, the reason I ask is the PC will carry 1800 watts and the contactor will only carry 2238 watts (3 HP) ,,,,,,,maybe you don't even need the contactor.

I noticed,,,,,,,,,,,I think this is a 2 pole contactor and only one pole is being used,top and bottom connections on the left.Looking further in the pics there appears to be other terminals on the bottom that are independant from the power terminals, but then why is the neutral coming in on a unused power terminal............sum-ting-wong

I think I'll go online and see if I can find a connection diagram,my curiosity is working on me.

df


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

delta force said:


> I got a couple of questions what type lights are you switching, the reason I ask is the PC will carry 1800 watts and the contactor will only carry 2238 watts (3 HP) ,,,,,,,maybe you don't even need the contactor.
> 
> I noticed,,,,,,,,,,,I think this is a 2 pole contactor and only one pole is being used,top and bottom connections on the left.Looking further in the pics there appears to be other terminals on the bottom that are independant from the power terminals, but then why is the neutral coming in on a unused power terminal............sum-ting-wong
> 
> ...


he is using a contactor so the only load on the PC is the contactor. That is the point of using a contactor. If he is using HID lights, he is better off sticking with a contactor.

the neutral from the PC is connected to the coil terminal, not one of the pole terminals. The pole on the right is not connected to anything. 


all he needs is a neutral from the panel to connect the the neutral of the PC and the contactor coil and an egc, at least for the wiring. That still doesn't correct his conduit problems though.

here is a better picture of the coil terminals:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/waterheater_2113_12667497


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Right you are nap,,I saw that the white wire was not connected to the power terminal and the red was not connected to the power terminal,,,,,,,,,

Here is a connection diagram that fits our thinking

df


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

DF .,

That is good drawing however make a note to draw the netural from the load centre to the contractor box where you will need the netural at that location.

That what it need to get it functing properly.

Merci.
Marc


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Marc, yes that would normally be the case but the OP said the lights would function in the test mode so there had to be a neutral somewhere so I just routed it for function and not correctness pictorially> The intent was to make it obvious,there is more than likely two neutrals involved.

df


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I did double check the photo what the OP gave to us and I look alot more closer and it sure engouh you have NM cable going back of the load centre so what you will do is find that matching netural conductor and bring it thur the contractor box and run new netural to the contractor box and ya good to go.

Merci.
Marc


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## Proby (Jul 17, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> I did double check the photo what the OP gave to us and I look alot more closer and it sure engouh you have NM cable going back of the load centre so what you will do is find that matching netural conductor and bring it thur the contractor box and run new netural to the contractor box and ya good to go.
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Why would he want to do that?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

bigmacfann said:


> I just did work on 5 AFCIs myself on a hot panel


I'm just surprised no-one has said anything about this comment....
You mean you didn't shut off the main before doing this?????

DM


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## Proby (Jul 17, 2010)

DangerMouse said:


> I'm just surprised no-one has said anything about this comment....


There is so much wrong with this thread that I didn't even feel the need to comment on that.

I'm surprised that you and the other moderators are allowing this to go on when the thread starter opening admitted to committing illegal acts. In my state what he is doing is a class 4 felony. It might only be a misdemeanor in California, but still illegal and extremely dangerous to allow someone who knows so little about electric to do electrical work on an apartment building.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I agree with ya proby. The only reason I gave the info I did is because Delta Force was throwing out all sorts of misinformation and confusion and all it was was a missing neutral. I figured it was safer to tell him to add a neutral than go through whatever DF was going to have him do and add further risk to injury.

He _STILL_ needs to add an egc to the box especially due to the crappy installation of the nipple (no lock nuts on the outside of the box). There is also a pic where you can see the locknut in the inside of the small box and it is obvious it is not tightened properly. Due to that, any ground connection is tenuous, at best.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

DangerMouse said:


> I'm just surprised no-one has said anything about this comment....
> You mean you didn't shut off the main before doing this?????
> 
> DM


I'm used to working in a hot panel for something as simple as installing breakers so I tend to overlook things like that. Yes, especially a DIY'er should turn off the main to do that work.



just to let you know what fun I have, there is a type of breaker that uses a screw to attach to the bus. When that is in a 277/480 panel, it's always fun to realize you are taking a metal screwdriver and sticking it on 277 hot. 

As with most work, there are ways to do things safely, even if they appear to be dangerous. Knowledge of the situation is what allows me (and other electricians) to work safely even when it appears we are going to kill ourselves.


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Nap when you 1st picked up on the fact that this was a contactor and not a controller of some sort,,,,,,,it would have been nice if you would have pointed this out rather than pointing fingers and holding yourself aloof of everyone ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,based on the fact that the so called controller was somewhat of a mystery and the bottom view of the so called controller had not come into being yet as well as the OP said he wanted the lights to be on a photo cell not necessarily controlled via a contactor.It indicated to me that there was not a contactor in the mix.That turned out to be wrong,,,,,,,,,,,You cannot deny that it apeared that the red and white wires in the very first image were terminated on the so called controller and not on the poles of a contactor it was becoming more confusing as to what was really happening.The later set of pictures cleared that up that it was the poles of a contactor.

The statement in the first post that said the lights worked when the test button was depressed also would indicate that a neutral was connected to the system somewhere and who is to say it was not back feeding into the system some where.

Oh BTW,I disagree that the only reason you use a contactor is to keep the load off of the PC,it is used when the lighting load exceeds the rating of the PC or when the client specificaly asks for it in his original job specs.

When it was learned by me that it was in fact a contactor is when I sketched up the schematic/connnection diagram and all bases were covered except the missing neutral.

I would also ask that you be specific in your accusation that I was throwing out a lot of misinformation and confusion.I am willing to retract anything that is in error and am also willing to learn if I did but I really didn't see anything,I did go back and briefly scan all that I posted and would probably respond the same way under said conditions.

In forums through out the world, people up front agree to disagree and any disagreements will/should be sorted out with discussion because written statements do not have the same meaning/connotation as the spoken language.

df


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Proby said:


> There is so much wrong with this thread that I didn't even feel the need to comment on that.


I know what you mean, when I posted that, I hadn't read the whole thread yet.
Thank you for pointing out the legalities of the situation, and I hope the OP takes all of this into account.

DM


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

nap said:


> Yes, especially a DIY'er should turn off the main to do that work.


You got that right! One little slip and *ZAP!* Even if YOU don't get zapped, you still need to excuse yourself to go change..... I ALWAYS shut the power down.... I don't carry spares with me....

DM


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Unfortunately one of the things that is inherent to DIY forums is that most thread starters (op) are going to give something a try right or wrong whether we assist them or not. It's a fine line whether we choose to give them safety guidance as to correct solutions to their projects or problems.

The best one can do is voice his opinion as to whether the person can do the work safely or not. You could tell this OP that what he is doing is likely to get his ass in a liabilty nightmare if something goes wrong and there is a fire or someone injured from an electrical mishap. 

I see very little difference in burning your house down or the apartment you own. I don't buy into the often said statement that it's is ok to put your family in jeopardy in your single family home but not people that rent from you. 

You will also find that these OP's often have multiple threads started on several forums looking for professional advice. So we could turn them away here only to have the other forum assist them.

So IMO unless they are obviously in over their heads this particular OP only needs to run about 2 feet of wire to the contactor coil neutral terminal from the panel buss to complete his circuit. And as NAP said an egc is certainly in order. 

The person here that I would be likely to not help is the 'someone' that worked for the electrical contractor that installed this PC and lighting circuit. I don't see where any favor was served, after all the OP was expecting the guy to know what he was doing. 

IMO we help the guy get this right and it is also prudent to tell him of the liability issues ... at which point the choice is his as to where he wants that liability to stand.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Proby (Jul 17, 2010)

Stubbie said:


> I see very little difference in burning your house down or the apartment you own. I don't buy into the often said statement that it's is ok to put your family in jeopardy in your single family home but not people that rent from you.


 You have a point that I agree with. 

I don't believe it's ok to put your family at risk either. However, the law says that it is. If you'd like to get the law changed to fix that inconsistency, I think it would be smarter to stop homeowners doing DIY electric than to allow unlicensed people (who don't know even the absolute basics of electric, like needing a neutral ) from doing commercial electrical work.



> The person here that I would be likely to not help is the 'someone' that worked for the electrical contractor that installed this PC and lighting circuit.


 I agree on that. I am not sure that guy even existed. He was said to be an out of state commercial electrician, which would tell me that there is a good chance he doesn't have a license and an even better chance that he doesn't have a California license. So how was the permit pulled? How did an inspector look at this and pass it? Even the dumbest inspectors I have dealt with would see this installation and laugh. I doubt any of that even happened...



> You will also find that these OP's often have multiple threads started on several forums looking for professional advice. So we could turn them away here only to have the other forum assist them.


 Most other electrical forums (which I am a member of most of them) would laugh and turn this guy away. THAT is what should happen which would drive this guy into hiring an electrician.

Let me ask you a question. If I came here asking how to open a bank vault, would you tell me the liabilities and then help me figure it out? Or would you turn me away and hope others did as well?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Depends on what type vault..... and do we get a cut? LOL

DM


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Let me ask you a question. If I came here asking how to open a bank vault, would you tell me the liabilities and then help me figure it out? Or would you turn me away and hope others did as well?


I'd turn you away unless you promised to give me 50% ....

It wasn't all that long ago where I was an advocate of advising all diy to never take the cover off their homes load center. They simply don't have any business in there. But they do it anyway .. usually because they cannot afford an electrician (at least they think they can't). So I'd rather help them do that safely. I also used to be a firm believer that if it isn't residential in nature or at least close ... that you pass on any advice. I still consider very closely on that one .. before I decide if maybe the op has stepped over the line. 

It could be argued that diy should not touch electrical period .. but .. anyone who comes here to this forum I think realizes they need an electrician .. except that cost clouds their common sense. And then there are those DIY that are perfectly capable. I do believe we have to ask the right questions to get some degree of a persons capability before we tell him to stick his hand into anything electrical.

In this case I will agree that the problem is rather basic and lends to the argument he needs to let it be and get a licensed electrican because he doesn't 'see' the problem.. The local jurisdiction mandates it anyway. But I'm willing to bet he just goes somewhere else or asks someone else. On this forum there have been no less than 3 or 4 electricians that know exactly what he needs to do. I also don't see where this OP is not capable as he is certainly providing pictures so we can assist him better with his situation. 

We won't save the world by turning this guy away. I don't want to kill him either but every diy is at risk of a goof ...hell there are a lot of electricians that goof now and then... me included.

So the bottom line to me is that this is not a situation that requires any more knowledge than changing out a receptacle. And I think the op understands now that we have explained it with a diagram and step by step instructions.

I also see that this is a mlo panel that the lighting circuit is fed from so he can de-energize everything at the service equipment.

And yes he shouldn't be doing this, and yes he needs inspection .. but he will still do it anyway.

The fact that he is asking on a forum tells me he is interested in safety and doing this correctly. The problem IMO is not one he cannot handle...
so I say help him out ... which it would appear we have done that. 

I do understand your very good points but after so many years on forums I've just learned to accept the fact that if you do not help them ..then they do what they "think" they need to do. I sleep better at night when they get information from this forum that keeps them safe ... at least I know they have been made aware of the things that can hurt them.

I also know that telling a DIY that anything electrical is probably something they shouldn't be fooling with and likely is the safest policy. But then why would the big boxes sell to the public ? And why this forum?

You and I both know that for every inspected job that is done by an electrician in the residential world there are 50 that are not.

Some of those 'knowledgable' diy people end up dead but the ones that come here for advice IMO have a higher survival rate.....:wink:


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## Proby (Jul 17, 2010)

You and I are probably never going to see this eye to eye so going back and forth on it won't help any, but I will say my peace.

This isn't his home, this isn't him helping his poor grandmother out. This is an apartment building that he is profiting off of. He is taking money from people who are paying for a safe place to live. That money should be used to properly and legally maintain the building, the tenant's homes. Instead he is looking to save a buck and putting people, and their children, at risk.

If someone got hurt in a fire that was caused by this person's electrical work, I not only blame him, but I blame the people who knowingly helped him. It's clear that he doesn't know his ass from his elbow when it comes to electric and the last thing he should be wiring is other people's homes.

If you turn him away like most other electrical forums would, he would have to pay the $75 or so for an electrician to come out and fix that.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Proby said:


> He is taking money from people who are paying for a safe place to live.


Reminds me of a post where the OP had his house declared unfit because of an outside gas line leak in a buried line on his property. He wanted to fix it himself. It's OK if the OP wants a Darwin Award but he could have also incinerated some of his neighbors.

Same with an OP who wanted advice on modifying a 3500# stock car. Other people are at risk.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You are correct that in 'some of the other forums' the moderators would close the thread as soon as the op mentioned 'apartment' but I know a few that won't ...:jester: 

My whole point has been it won't make any difference as to the final outcome. He is not going to hire an electrician and you are not going to force him to do that by not advising him .. just my experience with diy forums.

Other than that I am going to have to agree with pretty much all you have argued.....:thumbsup:


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## Troglodyte (May 4, 2010)

I'm no expert at anything DIY, but when I set out to do it I attempt to learn as much as I can/need to beforehand. There are those that will help and there are those that won't. Personally I won't proceed until I can ensure my own safety, but I know of plenty of others who won't, or won't have the common sense to correctly percieve their own safety.

In this situation you just have to ask yourself one question. "Given the likelihood that the original poster is going to go ahead and do this work anyway, possibly risking his own life and those of his tenants. Would I feel better about myself for allowing him to work blind, or aiding him to be safe?"

To be honest, I'm always astonished that some people are willing to let him risk the lives of others by refusing advice, closing threads etc. Sure, strongly suggest he doesn't do the work, report him to the authorities if you know enough information about him. Letting him risk his own life is devoid of compassion, but letting him risk other peoples lives is heinous.


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## a7ecorsair (Jun 1, 2010)

DangerMouse said:


> Depends on what type vault..... and do we get a cut? LOL
> 
> DM


Vaults contain either money or dead people.....................


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## delta force (Aug 2, 2010)

Nap,I am unable to respond to your private message because forum rules require I have 20 posts before this is allowed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you can email if you want the responce

df


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## DeepBlue (Sep 13, 2011)

*Parking Lot Circuit with Photo-Cell*

Delta Force (df)

I'm not an electrician but I've done extensive residential work on electrical circuits. I do practically all the elctrical work for our church. I've read all the comments in regards to this circuit. It looks simple enough to hook up. 

Delta Force offered to submit a schematic or drawing of the COMPLETE CIRCUIT. It would help me considerably since I need to hook up our Photo-Cell with a separate contactor because I'm constantly replacing the Photo-Cell. I'm using 6 High Pressure Sodium 150Watts each. The Photo Cell is good for 1800 Watts Max. So I shouldn't be blowing the PC as often as I have in the past. 

Your Drawing/Schematic I believe will do the trick for me! Thanks a bunch.

You can even email me at [email protected]


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## DeepBlue (Sep 13, 2011)

Will you send me the circuit drawing? Thanks

DeepBlue


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## DeepBlue (Sep 13, 2011)

It is good to see that we respect each other's views when they may or may not coincide with our views or understanding. It is even better to see that we've done a thorough review of all the facts in concern before we decide to post negative statements concerning the subject matter. 

I have and is still learning about electrical circuits from experience and reading the information that is being posted for all to read. I really appreciate the drawing and the time and concerned put into it
for the benefit of others........like myself. 

I will use this simple schematic for the lights in our parking lot because I ketp having to replace the photocell. This way, it only sees the LOAD OF THE CONTACTOR COIL, instead of the load of the lights. 

Thanks again Delta Force, and thanks to the rest of you for even bringing up the discussion .


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