# Easy Seal/ Super Seal



## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

Just .... say .... no.

Find the leak(s) and fix it (or them). Yes, it's a PITA but it's the right way to fix leaks on an HVAC system. No matter the claim, that gunk will cause nothing but troubles in A/C systems, and especially in older capillary tube systems.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

I hate the stuff. Clogs up metering devices which burns up compressors. Also had to buy new gauge heads on several occasions because of the junk. It will stop small leaks but the price of the can isn't nearly as expensive as the end repair bill is going to be.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

I will go against the grain and say it has its place to be used. I personally have only used it twice. So far in both cases it has stoped the leaks with no ill effect. Fixing leaks is not the problem it is finding them. Every unit I have added refrigerant to in my time in the industry I have spent the remainder of the hour (1 hr min for my company and every other company I have worked for) leak checking. I don't charge systems with large losses with out finding a leak. I do however have a great deal of customer who have small amouts of refrigerant needed every year or two. The hope is when charging one of these times when I spend the remainder of the hour min I will find it. I am alway willing to spend more time they just don't want to spend the money looking. 

I do have a few units which leak a little more (say have to be charged twice a year). Some of these units are getting old and in less than ideal condition. these units are IMO not worth spending a lot of money to leak check. These cases this year I started considering the leak seal. I talk to the customers explane the risk/reward and have used it 2 times this year. Most of these cases the customer decied to do nothing other than my typical charge and leak check for remainder of the hr normal proceedure.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

I've experienced two systems this summer where I believe the leak stuff caused clogging and rendered the system inoperable. Granted in both cases the system was old but in each case the customer reported that prior to having the leak fix gunk added, the system would work fine when fully charged. 

In both of those cases a pressure check immediately showed a clog in the evap section of the system. 

Good news is we ended up with two system changeouts.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

If a system leaks enough to need o be recharged twice a year, its generally a big enough leak to find easily with an electronic leak detector.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks for the replays thus far.
I'm have some trouble understanding how if this stuff is so detrimental to AC units, why isn't there more information about the ill affects of it on the web?
I would think that if it caused so much damage to the point of having to replace the whole unit,why is there not more people complaining about that and why is it still available to purchase by the regular consumer?


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> I'm have some trouble understanding how if this stuff is so detrimental to AC units, why isn't there more information about the ill affects of it on the web?


I'd say because it's nearly impossible to say with 100% certainty that the leak gunk caused the failure, so it would be difficult (and perhaps illegal) to post comments blaming the leak gunk for the failure of the system. 

If you're not familiar with a refrigerant system, then it's hard to understand why this stuff is a bad idea, but basically: There are some very, very small areas/orifices through which refrigerant must travel in your system (the capillary tubes, or the expansion valves, for example). The leak repair gunk basically flows through the system and attemtps to build up a "dam" at the point of the leak. Of course, it also coats the inside of your refrigerant pipes and such with the gunk, and especially at areas where there are jagged edges/grooves, etc etc. This includes those small areas. If enough gunk builds up in those areas, you begin to have troubles with refrigerant flow, which means you have trouble cooling the system. Once this happens there is no fixing the issue - you would have to determine where the clog is and replace that piece. Given that the leak gunk is still in the system, there's also no guarantee that it won't happen again, so it could become a vicious cycle.



> I would think that if it caused so much damage to the point of having to replace the whole unit,why is there not more people complaining about that and why is it still available to purchase by the regular consumer?


Again, it would be difficult to prove. Plus, there's lots of things that cause significant harm to many different things that are available for purchase. And I'm pretty sure that the folks who make that stuff do not intend for it to be used by "regular consumers" - the intent would be that an HVAC professional install the stuff. 

For example. there are some new R22 replacements coming into the market (like this: http://www.super-freeze.com/super-f...-r22-freon-replacement-30-lb-equivalent-tank/). Our local distributors are posting warnings about the use of those refrigerants, stating that doing so may void the compressor or manufacturer warranty on dry ship units, or on compressor replacements. That doesn't stop companies from selling the stuff, however.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

*My super seal decision (long story)*

I have just had my HVAC repairman use the Super Seal (with dry/r) on my out of warrenty 21 year old trane (live in North east area).

Here is why I chose this option and would like to know what others think. I knew I had a small leak in the system about 3 years ago when a (different) hvac repairman put in 3 pounds freon and a dye to find the leak. I never called him back to find the leak -however the system worked for 3 years - until this year when I seen the suction (big line) was no longer cold and would struggle to stay at 79 degrees in house ( temp difference from return to registers was about 10-12 degrees) . So I said to myself - I have a leak, and the dye was already in - so I bought a UV light and went to all the fittings/joints and exposed pipes looking for the glow-but did not see it - so the "easy" type fixes were pretty much out of the question and left really the evaporator coil -which I never cleaned in the 21 years. 

So I opened up the plenum, and then looked at evap coil with the UV light -and can see a glow around the middle part on the fins on the inside of the A. I then cleaned the coil (which suprisingly wasnt that dirty) with evap coil cleaner. So now, up to this point, I had cleaned the condensor coils with water hose, cleaned the evap coil, and air filter is perfectly clean. I then check and now have even better airflow out the registers, but same temp diff of 10-12 degrees(no surprise).

So now here is my choice, I add freon at 50 bucks a pound - 3 pounds plus 100 bucks for labor (est 250) and then 3 years from now (if lucky) have to add more R-22 at who knows what rate as they phased it out -however with this choice I would have bought myself a few years of not paying 3.5K new system yet. Or I can pay them to come in and evacuate the lines, take out the evap coil, try to fix leak -reinstall -recharge- or just put in a new evap coil Either way- I faced about 800-1200 bill. If I was to pay that - I might as well just upgrade to the new 410a and get efficient unit -seeing the saved non repair of 1000 or so dollars as a "discount" to the new inevitable system install. 

And now theres another choice. I did research and heard about the super seal stuff and heared the horror stories -compressor issues, line clogged etc. I also heard stories to how it worked very well. I heard that for my evap coil leak - that the super seal is actually pretty good at sealing the small slow leak . but my fear is- how do I know there is no air/moisture in the line now? wont it clog up? but I seen that Super Seal now comes with Dry/r included - which seems to clear out the moisture ,if any, in system. Cost of Super seal was 100 bucks. 

I thought what was worst case senerio - I was going to have to pay 1K or 3.5 k with other 2 options but with this option -total cost with freon would be 350. This option also gives me the chance that I wont have to call back for another freon recharge until I decide to upgrade to new system- which could be 5 years or more -who knows. While its only been a few weeks since the HVAC repairman added the sealent - I have about 16-18 degrees difference between return and closest register, nice drop down to 48-50% humidity, and so far the system seems to be working /sounding fine. I also understand that now that sealent is in system, any future small leak will fill in quickly too.

So for me- with a 21 year old R22 phased out system with a small leak in evap coil , at least for my situation- I found that it was worth the risk as I would just upgrade to new system if any compressor issue did materialize as that was in the cards for me anyway giving the existing evap coil leak fix/replace cost I was facing before -and the age of system.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

ea0680 said:


> I have just had my HVAC repairman use the Super Seal (with dry/r) on my out of warrenty 21 year old trane (live in North east area).
> 
> Here is why I chose this option and would like to know what others think. I knew I had a small leak in the system about 3 years ago when a (different) hvac repairman put in 3 pounds freon and a dye to find the leak. I never called him back to find the leak -however the system worked for 3 years - until this year when I seen the suction (big line) was no longer cold and would struggle to stay at 79 degrees in house ( temp difference from return to registers was about 10-12 degrees) . So I said to myself - I have a leak, and the dye was already in - so I bought a UV light and went to all the fittings/joints and exposed pipes looking for the glow-but did not see it - so the "easy" type fixes were pretty much out of the question and left really the evaporator coil -which I never cleaned in the 21 years.
> 
> ...


Which means you'll have that stuff in your line set when its time to replace the system, and need to pay for a really good cleaning of the lines, or replace the lines.

Post back next year if your A/C is still running or not.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Going from R22 to 410a system would mean new lines anyway (higher pressures I believe) - so I already had new lines in my new install price and was part of reason I said ok to the sealent as it will be gone with old system. I will be sure to update on any changes to system operation.

Let me be clear - If they never phased out the R22 freon or made such big efficiency improvements over the past 20 years - I probably would have done the evap fix and moved on. but such expense (1K or more) doesnt seem to make sense on such a now outdated system - at least to me.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

ea0680 said:


> Going from R22 to 410a system would mean new lines anyway (higher pressures I believe) - so I already had new lines in my new install price and was part of reason I said ok to the sealent as it will be gone with old system. I will be sure to update on any changes to system operation.
> 
> Let me be clear - If they never phased out the R22 freon or made such big efficiency improvements over the past 20 years - I probably would have done the evap fix and moved on. but such expense (1K or more) doesnt seem to make sense on such a now outdated system - at least to me.



Don't need new lines for R410A. new line sets aren't made any thicker today then they were 30 years ago.

A new coil today, can be used with an R410A condenser 5 years down the road.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Well,
I'm not in a position right now to replace the unit and I don't want to take the chance of " bricking up" the unit I do have now.
I think I will just buy some r22 and gauges off of craigslist and just add the Freon myself as needed till I can replace the unit( 22 years old).
I see it as,why pay someone $70 a lb (r22) for Freon he has paid $10 a lb for when I can just DIY.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

I am only a homeowner with no knowledge of AC, but what I do know is that you cannot mess around with R22 freon yourself unless you are EPA certified. Not worth the risk IMO with big fines -as you stated only 3.5K would be too much for new system for you right now, but epa fines are tremendously larger.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> I am only a homeowner with no knowledge of AC, but what I do know is that you cannot mess around with R22 freon yourself unless you are EPA certified. Not worth the risk IMO with big fines -as you stated only 3.5K would be too much for new system for you right now, but epa fines are tremendously larger.


Here's an example of how concerned the guy that did my recharge is about the EPA.
Recharged the system,removed the hoses.with the Freon hose pointing into my yard he opens the valve to clear out the Freon left in the line.
I don't think the EPA has the time,energy or resources to check on what home owners are doing with Freon.

Also as a side question for the HVAC guys.
How can u tell how much Freon in terms of lbs your putting into a unit so as to bill the customer accordingly?


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

sublime2 said:


> Here's an example of how concerned the guy that did my recharge is about the EPA.
> Recharged the system,removed the hoses.with the Freon hose pointing into my yard he opens the valve to clear out the Freon left in the line.
> I don't think the EPA has the time,energy or resources to check on what home owners are doing with Freon.
> 
> ...


 
1. you will see my scale under the jug if I am adding or removing.
2. Some linesets cannot be removed that run thru walls.....3 years ago I changed an upstairs system that the lineset cannot be replaced and only flushed....ended up on leaving the section of lineset between the crawlspace and upstairs...(approx. 20ft) because of that crap being saturated in the system. Almost was asphixiated from the fumes that crap gave off. Please let whoever comes out know you have put that sheet in the system......
3. It is allowable to vent off your hoses after is has been hooked to a system....Why? because when the hoses sits in you van in the sun and you guages get to high temps it will ruin them.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Technow said:


> 1. you will see my scale under the jug if I am adding or removing.


I have heard of a scale being used.
Would it be safe to say if your not using a scale and only the gauges that you're guessing at the amount that you put in?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Sometimes i weight the jug when I take it back out to the truck. Since I top off charges by SH and SC. Don't need to know the exact amount I put in until i write up he bill.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

I was against it for a long time. tried it this year so far so good like I said. I informed customers of the potential problems i could see. 

If you can find leaks easy good for you. I have never had much luck with electronic leak detectors. I currently own 4 by different manufactures. I use them but if I can't prove what they are telling me with a soap bubble I don't trust them. 

As far a cloggs in two units or for that matter my success with two units neither is a broad enough test. Time will tell and if it is harmfull the industry will abandon its use. Not long ago most of us felt the same way about dyes. and now most accept them.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Personally, I don't use dyes either.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

beenthere said:


> Personally, I don't use dyes either.


 I don't either, but it seems they are now acepted


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

turnermech said:


> I don't either, but it seems they are now acepted



Just more people using it cause they are too lazy to really look for the leak.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

I am hoping that someone might be able to help with a question I have . 

As I described in a earlier post, as of 2 weeks ago I have a sealent in my 21 year old system. I would like to keep a close eye on the system performance (which so far seems very good)-and have been watching the temperature differences between return and register, and how fast it takes for temp to drop with a relative outdoor conditions, humidity levels etc. I also have been keeping track of how warm/hot the liquid line is after 20 min operating -how much heat is coming out the condensor fan over and above ambient outdoor air-and how cold suction line is - I have been checking both line temps at the compressor. 

My question is - if the sealent was harming the compressor or blocking lines/valves/dryer, wouldnt I already see the effect of it somewhere? I mean if no one is going to touch the closed system going forward (which assumes the small leak is fixed) -hasnt the sealent basically already done its job (or any damage) within the 1st hour or so after original install? 

Like I said earlier I do not have any experience with AC other than very basic maintainence, but I would think by now I would see some symtoms such as high pressures/high temp in the liquid line , or poor performance in cooling in general, or strange sounds from compressor, or hard start of compressor - but I see none of this as of now. I do not have gauges so I can only go by these crude measures. 

Should I be looking for something else that I may have missed? Thanks for any thought or ideas on this.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> I think I will just buy some r22 and gauges off of craigslist and just add the Freon myself as needed till I can replace the unit( 22 years old).


You should instead say "I think I will just buy some STOLEN r22 and gauges off of craigslist". 

Nobody in the HVAC business would sell R22 in builk to end consumers, and especially not for $10 a lb. If you're okay with supporting thieves, then go for it.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> if the sealent was harming the compressor or blocking lines/valves/dryer, wouldnt I already see the effect of it somewhere


Not necessarily. I've seen them go several months with no troubles before the clogs start. Once you put that stuff in, it doesn't just find the leak and then "stop". It continues to circulate through the system.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

scottmcd9999 said:


> Not necessarily. I've seen them go several months with no troubles before the clogs start. Once you put that stuff in, it doesn't just find the leak and then "stop". It continues to circulate through the system.


Yep, its mixed in with the oil, and continues to circulate. Might not effect the system until next year, after it sits in the compressor for a winter.


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## bobinphx (Nov 25, 2011)

scottmcd9999 said:


> You should instead say "I think I will just buy some STOLEN r22 and gauges off of craigslist".
> 
> Nobody in the HVAC business would sell R22 in builk to end consumers, and especially not for $10 a lb. If you're okay with supporting thieves, then go for it.


 
my two jugs (r12 and r22) are not stolen and I am just a Homeowner. 
I bought mine from a supply house. so supply houses do sell to end consumers. In this case, CASH talked. 

now for the fine print... 

I have gauges and know how to use them. Will I fill my own system if it gets low. NOPE.... I am not willing to take the chance either on making a charging mistake or breaking the epa rules.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

If you bought this pre-ban, then the supply house could do what they like. Many (if not most) of them would not sell to homeowners, since they would likely encounter significant backlash from their contractors.

If you bought this post-ban (i.e. today) then unless you have an EPA certification, that supply house did so illegally and should be reported. If you want to take the time to get certified (it's not too hard), and if the supply house is willing to take the risk, then they can sell whatever they like.

MY point was buying a drum of 22 off Craig's List. That is illegal per EPA regulations - see the last item at this link:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/sales/sales.html



> I don't think the EPA has the time,energy or resources to check on what home owners are doing with Freon


Whether the EPA has the desire or resources to enforce this is not the issue. It's illegal. If you're okay with doing that, then I guess there's little anyone could say to change your mind.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

scottmcd9999 said:


> Nobody in the HVAC business would sell R22 in builk to end consumers, and especially not for $10 a lb. If you're okay with supporting thieves, then go for it.




What I am OK with is saving money! 
If you choose to see it at supporting thieves then so be it.
I thought I had found a honest/fair HVAC guy to recharge my system but I have now come to the realization that he was not honest or fair in what he charged me.
He chargeed me $80 a lb for 3 lbs of Freon.
The can was still in the box( just opened it)while he was charging the system and told me while he was charging it that it will take 3 lbs WHILE he's still charging the system. He never weighed the tank so unless he has a scale implanted in his arm, I see it as he just guessed at the amount which makes me think he over charged me.
So I guess u can say I am supporting thieves,this one just had a licence to do it.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

Not defending the super seal because I am still on the fence about it. But if a system cloggs a year or two after using it you really can't say it was the supper seal. I see restrictions quite offen. I would say a few a year. I have been seeing them happen for the last 15 + years. Well before this stuff was around. 

The stuff has directions to follow on the can. Dont rember exactly what it says but the last time i used it most of the directions seemed to me were for limiting the restrictions. I am sure some (not saying anyone here) don't read the instructions and then complain when they have problems


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

This is why I had the HVAC servicer use the new Super sealant advanced with Dry/r inside . 

From what I understand (from reading online only) the new product helps eliminate some of the problems that in the past could happen from missing important steps by the hvac servicers -therefore I figured this product might lower the chance of problems with moisture inside lines as it claims to neutrizes 20 drops and i believe also claims it neutrizes acid. 

Again, I am only going on what I read, I have no prior real world experience -only what I have in my system the past few weeks.

I guess the true test - based on what others are saying -is that I need to wait till next summer and see if it is not clogged up or compressor siezed by then. 

Until then, I will give a end of summer update on the stats of my ac system operation and see if they deteriated from where it is now or stayed the same - this thread is about super seal/easy sealant experiences after all .


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dry/r inside. Just another thing that doesn't belong in a refrigeration circuit.

Keep us updated.


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## FrankL (Jun 9, 2010)

sublime2 said:


> Here's an example of how concerned the guy that did my recharge is about the EPA.
> Recharged the system,removed the hoses.with the Freon hose pointing into my yard he opens the valve to clear out the Freon left in the line.
> I don't think the EPA has the time,energy or resources to check on what home owners are doing with Freon.
> 
> ...


How about a third alternative - the AAC guys may kick me off the site. :wink:

Go on craigslist and look for a used condensor unit. In FL you can find slightly used systems all the time. You may be just buying another headache. 

I had a house tear down across the street with a 2010 R410 Rheem 2.5 ton condensor for about $450. The people moved out in 2011 and took care of their stuff too. They also had a 5 year old or so Trane XB 3 ton for about $500 (R22 unit).


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

FrankL said:


> How about a third alternative - the AAC guys may kick me off the site. :wink:
> 
> Go on craigslist and look for a used condensor unit. In FL you can find slightly used systems all the time. You may be just buying another headache.
> 
> I had a house tear down across the street with a 2010 R410 Rheem 2.5 ton condensor for about $450. The people moved out in 2011 and took care of their stuff too. They also had a 5 year old or so Trane XB 3 ton for about $500 (R22 unit).


 that would be great if you know the leak is outside. the outside unit is about 1/3 of the system.

Also those prices may be ok for homeowner, but the pros don't pay too much more for new warrantied units. Plus some may think it is unfair but we would charge more to install a unit that we could not make a mark up on. Think of it this way why should a contractor make less for the same work just because you bought the outside unit. just my opinion.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> What I am OK with is saving money!
> If you choose to see it at supporting thieves then so be it.


How can anyone see this any other way? 

Legitimate contractors would not sell refrigerants on CraigsList or any other web service (and, as shown in my earlier link, it would be illegal to do so without requiring you to prove that you have the certification to do so). Also, a legitimate contractor can make more money selling it by the pound to customers - so what would be the purpose of selling it ILLEGALY in bulk online?

The answer: The people you're buying that from are not doing so legally. They've stolen it (either from a service truck, or from their employer) and they're selling it to you. Simple as that. If you want to support thieves (and drive up future service costs in the meantime) then have at it. You're the one who has to live with yourself.



> I thought I had found a honest/fair HVAC guy to recharge my system but I have now come to the realization that he was not honest or fair in what he charged me.


I might agree with you on that, but as the old saying goes - two wrongs don't make a right! 

Just for the sake of argument - what do you think would have been a fair cost to add 3 lbs of refrigerant to your system?


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

scottmcd9999 said:


> How can anyone see this any other way?
> 
> Legitimate contractors would not sell refrigerants on CraigsList or any other web service (and, as shown in my earlier link, it would be illegal to do so without requiring you to prove that you have the certification to do so). Also, a legitimate contractor can make more money selling it by the pound to customers - so what would be the purpose of selling it ILLEGALY in bulk online?
> 
> ...


As for the sales of Freon on craigslist only being sold by people who have stolen it,
Ever consider its a " legitimate contractor " who is out of the trade maybe not by choice (health,layoff,fired) might be the one selling it cause he needs the money? 

As for the 3 lbs,I not so much questioning the price per pound ( although 80 dollars a lb is at the top end I think) I question how he could even know he put 3 lbs in when he never weighed the tank and told me " while" he was in the process of adding it that it would be 3 lbs.
Maybe I only needed 2 lbs or a pound and a half.how does he know how much he's putting in while he's still adding it?

I will also throw out that I think "most"HVAC guys will speak negatively about the easy/ super seal for the simple reason that if it were to be praised it would result in HVAC techs taking quite a big hit in income because recharge service is so lucrative and a quick as easy way to make money. 
How big of a part does recharge work make up your business? I'd guess it's a good third of it!

Ex, 240 dollars for 20 minutes of "work".
Anyone would love to make $720.00 an hour!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I wish the stuff worke reliably, and didn't have ill effects. Would save me from going into hot attics, and damp/wet crawlspaces.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

beenthere said:


> I wish the stuff worke reliably, and didn't have ill effects. Would save me from going into hot attics, and damp/wet crawlspaces.


Don't hold your breath. Tried it a few years back on some old leakers and 8 out of 10 systems failed. Based on that limited experience it's not even offered anymore. Not only did the systems fail but the company got to rebuild 3 reclaim machines and I had to buy half a dozen manifold heads and one complete manifold set. Two of the ten are still going strong several years later but that's not nearly good enough IMO.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Marty S. said:


> Don't hold your breath. Tried it a few years back on some old leakers and 8 out of 10 systems failed. Based on that limited experience it's not even offered anymore. Not only did the systems fail but the company got to rebuild 3 reclaim machines and I had to buy half a dozen manifold heads and one complete manifold set. Two of the ten are still going strong several years later but that's not nearly good enough IMO.



Ya, People don't realize what that crap does to our equipment. And that it can be carried into someone else s unit by accident.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

scottmcd9999 said:


> If you bought this pre-ban, then the supply house could do what they like. Many (if not most) of them would not sell to homeowners, since they would likely encounter significant backlash from their contractors.


This give my theory some validity of how lucrative recharge work is for HVAC techs! 

What other reason would "contractors" give the supply house backlash. 
Taking easy money out of their pockets is the only reason!

If the average homeowner knew how easy it is to diy, and did it.HVAC techs would be hurting for sure.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sublime2 said:


> This give my theory some validity of how lucrative recharge work is for HVAC techs!
> 
> What other reason would "contractors" give the supply house backlash.
> Taking easy money out of their pockets is the only reason!
> ...


R22 was dirt cheap before the ban on venting. So it wasn't a lucrative thing to gs and go as you may think it was.

After the no venting regs came into effect, it did become more profitable.

I have some commercial customers that own their own refrigerants. I don't blame them for buying 100 plus pounds themselves. Also saves me from having to lay out the money until they pay me.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

sublime2 said:


> This give my theory some validity of how lucrative recharge work is for HVAC techs!
> 
> What other reason would "contractors" give the supply house backlash.
> Taking easy money out of their pockets is the only reason!
> ...


Sounds like you should open a shop and be rolling in money like the rest of us techs:laughing:. Very little of my work is gas up with no repair,maybe enough profit in all of them together to fill the van up with gas once.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Marty S. said:


> Very little of my work is gas up with no repair,maybe enough profit in all of them together to fill the van up with gas once.


Lmao!
Yea,Ok!


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## AirstarFilters (Jul 5, 2010)

Your on to something here,

Recharging is an HVAC Contractors greatest profit center, they bill out by the lb. Without using a scale, charge 10x the cost per pound and find a way to get 90 lbs out of a 30# drum.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

AirstarFilters said:


> Your on to something here,
> 
> Recharging is an HVAC Contractors greatest profit center, they bill out by the lb. Without using a scale, charge 10x the cost per pound and find a way to get 90 lbs out of a 30# drum.


I have 2 scales. I use them, but round up to the nearest pound, and do sell more then 30 pounds from a 30 pound cylinder fairly often. Thee are those times that i don't sell 30 pounds from a 30 pound cylinder. Many contractors use scales and bill out by them. 

You are correct, there are those that don't.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Don't need new lines for R410A. new line sets aren't made any thicker today then they were 30 years ago.
> 
> A new coil today, can be used with an R410A condenser 5 years down the road.


 You would a new ine set when you change systems.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

bobelectric said:


> You would a new ine set when you change systems.


I always recommend a new line set. but if they don't want to spring for it. i don't push it.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> Ever consider its a " legitimate contractor " who is out of the trade maybe not by choice (health,layoff,fired) might be the one selling it cause he needs the money?


It would still be illegal to sell it to anyone who does not have a valid EPA card. Most contractors who go out of the business let it be known, and sell off their inventory to other contractors (who will generally pay them more than someone on Craigs list). 


> will also throw out that I think "most"HVAC guys will speak negatively about the easy/ super seal for the simple reason that if it were to be praised it would result in HVAC techs taking quite a big hit in income because recharge service is so lucrative and a quick as easy way to make money.


I think you over-estimate the greed factor of most HVAC businesses. Most are just simple, honest business people who are out to make a living (note: this does NOT mean make a paycheck). If they could make money with leak repairs, they'd do it. 



> How big of a part does recharge work make up your business? I'd guess it's a good third of it!


I haven't been a "gas-and-go" guy for many, many years, so I wouldn't have that sort of information. If the system is low on refrigerant then I locate the leak, give the customer options on repair/replace, and then take whatever action is appropriate. Sometimes the customer says "I don't want to find the leak - just recharge it", and I do that, but I'm sure to note on the ticket where the leak is, and what the cost for repair/replace would be.


> Ex, 240 dollars for 20 minutes of "work".
> Anyone would love to make $720.00 an hour!


You didn't count the time it takes to drive to your jobsite (in that $50,000 rolling truck), or the time to drive back from your jobsite, or the money invested in tools/equipment ... not to mention that the owner needs to pay the mortgage on the business, lighting, insurance, etc etc. I realize you've never owned a business, but you certainly must understand that there is much more to a service call than simply labor. The secretarial staff has to be paid, the CPA has to be paid, the laptop that was stolen last week (and ended up on Craigs list) has to be replaced - all these things go into the cost of a service call.

I do agree that anyone who doesn't weigh the amount of refrigerant being put into a system is likely to overcharge. Most legit contractors weigh the bottle and charge you accordingly. 

Just don't compare all contractors to the one you ran into. Most are honest, hardworking people who are just out to make a living.

And it's still illegal to buy R-22 from any source, unless you possess a valid EPA card. 

And you still didn't answer my question: How much do you think the tech should have charged for adding 3 lbs of R22 to your system?


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't actually disagree with scott. but technically anyone can by refrigerant they are just not allowed to use it. Stupid but the how the EPA wrote it. An unlicened person can buy it if they sign a paper stating they are buying it for resale. I can send some one to buy it at the supply house If I deem them a runner for me. I can sell you a jug to have for future uses as long as you sign that you will not use it and only a lic person will.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> I don't actually disagree with scott. but technically anyone can by refrigerant they are just not allowed to use it. Stupid but the how the EPA wrote it. An unlicened person can buy it if they sign a paper stating they are buying it for resale. I can send some one to buy it at the supply house If I deem them a runner for me. I can sell you a jug to have for future uses as long as you sign that you will not use it and only a lic person will.


I'd like to see some references for this, since that would potentially change the way many people do business. I don't see a distinction regarding "use" vs "sale", and in fact the EPA laws seem to specifically refer to the SALE of refrigerant, regardless of the eventual usage. From my reading, it's very clear:

_This sales restriction covers all CFC and HCFC refrigerants contained in bulk containers _

And later in the document:


_The following people can buy any type of ozone-depleting refrigerant under this sales restriction (for instance, R-11, R-12, R-123, R-22), except for "small cans" containing less than 20 pounds of R-12: _

_Technicians certified to service stationary refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment by a __Section 608 EPA-certified testing organization__; and_
_Employers of a Section 608 certified technician (or the employer's authorized representative) if the employer provides the wholesaler with written evidence that he or she employs at least one properly certified technician._
From here: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/sales/sales.html

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

I agree that I can send a representative to a wholesaler to purchase refrigerant (like one of my service techs, for example). I could also send my wife in to buy it for me, or my daughter, etc etc - as long as it ends up in my possession for my use.

But from my reading, a wholesaler cannot sell bulk refrigerant to ANYONE unless they meet the requirements. 

Similarly, it seems as if you (and me) could not sell bulk refrigerant (i.e. a drum of R22) to a customer, since that would violate the "bulk container" portion of the law.

I might be misreading, but it seems fairly clear to me. Others obviously have different views on this.

And please don't think I'm an EPA shill. I think it's one of the most heavy-handed, partisan, short-sighted, corrupt and downright evil machinations ever devised by that disgusting group of do-nothings known as "politicians", right up there next to the IRS (shudder). If it were disbanded today I'd dance in the streets (and that would be a very, very scary sight  ). But for now, they are the ones administering this policy, and we have all agreed to follow those policies.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.



This link should go to the first web side which came up on a google search for refrigerant sold online. It is there FAQ page covers lic requirements. first FAQ what is required to buy? second lines say bought as re-seller to be slod only to EPA cert techs. Most of these companies will use this loop hole to sell to anyone. I am not saying that is wright or wrong. To be a re-seller IIRC they send you a form to fill out and presto your are a re-seller. But if I sell it to a customer to later be sold back to me or any other EPA lic tech sounds like the same thing to me.

http://www.r22.org/faq.php


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## AirstarFilters (Jul 5, 2010)

Arkema, Honeywell , Dupont , they should just sell direct. Distributors don't make anything with the single digit margins. Just a thought. All contractors want is lowest price - value & service removed from equation


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

turnermech said:


> The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you mean people can forge the paper to say they are a wholesaler so they can buy it illegally.


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. I can send a helper to buy it at the supply house if he is a set up as a runner for me. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.


We're talking apples and oranges here, I think.

The distributors, like R.E. Michel, are selling BULK containers to you, the holder of an EPA card, for ultimately resale BY THE POUND to end consumers (i.e. owners of HVAC equipment).I would assume that resellers of bulk refrigerant (like "Doc Michel", who I assume is the owner of R.E. Michel, an HVAC supply house in your area) are licensed in some manner to purchase bulk containers of refrigerant. But they only resell bulk refrigerant - that is, you couldn't go into R.E. Michel and buy 5 lbs of R-22. You buy a 30 lb drum, for example, and then you sell it by the the pounds, since you hold a valid EPA card. R.E. Michel would buy that 30 lb drum from someone, mostly likely truckloads at a time, and resell it to you. They'd also sell it to your authorized agent (like your "runner"), since ultimately it would be managed by you (the EPA cardholder).

If you decide to sell that container to someone else, then according to the EPA site, you would be responsible for insuring the person who ends up with the container holds a valid EPA license. If you review the EPA link I provided, that's very obvious (see the last item on that link page). Whether you do this or not is up to you, of course. There's nothing to stop you from buying a drum of refrigerant and selling it in bulk to someone posing as a "reseller" (other than your conscience, I suppose).



> It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it.
> 
> first FAQ what is required to buy? second lines say bought as reseller to be slod only to EPA cert techs.


Exactly, and that's what I'm saying. Whether CoolGas performs the due diligence needed to insure that they're only selling to "resellers to be sold only to EPA certified techs", or to valid license holders, is a matter between Coolgas, those "resellers" and/or license holders, and the EPA. I don't know the CoolGas company policy defining a "reseller", of course. 

If CoolGas is okay defining a "reseller" as someone who buys a single drum, then that is - again - a matter between them and the EPA. I think CoolGas would have a hard time convincing an EPA auditor that selling a single drum of R22 to Joe Homeowner, who works at some local business having nothing to do with HVAC sales, would constitute a "resell" transaction ... but that's just my way of thinking.



> Most of these companies will use this loop hole to sell to anyone


I suppose you're right, but the "loophole" is not really a loophole. 

If you process a purchase on the Coolgas site, for example, you're asked to provide either your EPA license, or a Sales Tax license. If you provide the Sales Tax license (i.e. the reseller scenario), you're warned that you are obligated to only resell the refrigerant to a licensed EPA cardholder, and that by clicking the agree button you agree to comply with that obligation. 

If you fail to live up to that obligation, and instead use that drum to top off your a/c system (and your neighbor's a/c system, etc etc) then you're violating EPA laws, plain and simple. And that's not a "loophole" - it's a violation.

And again, I'm not siding with the EPA. If they were to make the sale of R22 legal, and if someone wanted to shell out $500 bucks for a drum, then they could do what they wanted with it. 

But at this point in time, it's illegal to purchase a drum of R22 for end consumption without an EPA card. Simple as that.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't think they are forgeing paper work. I think it is just a loop hole. I guess I should say I have never seen the form so I really don't know what is on it. I just know it exisits. Resale is a vage word. I would think the EPA meant this for distributors, but if you buy only one can and plan to re-sell it they way the form is used it is resale.

My state tax number is my SS# I think everyone has one.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

I should also say, I don't buy it online. I have not sold any to any customers for future use on there systems, but I sure think it would be a good idea. I am not looking forward to the day when a loss of charge and simple fix means they need a new unit due to refrigerant cost. I don't try to understand the laws there are too many and I am not a lawyer. I only know what some are doing (selling on line with a resale form). this seems fairly wide spread if not allowed would seem the EPA would stop it or fine them.

We are talking about and orginazation that IIRC has a 10,000 fine for venting refrigerant and a 25,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of someone venting. At that rate makes me wonder why someone has not tried to turn themselves in.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

> We are talking about and orginazation that IIRC has a 10,000 fine for venting refrigerant and a 25,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of someone venting. At that rate makes me wonder why someone has not tried to turn themselves in.


There is no reward. that was a thought they had, but never became a real thing. Mostly because of all of the false claims they would have had to investigate. And the first talks of a reward, where for $10,000.00, and it was suppose to come out of the $25,000.00 fine.

Do you know of anyone that ever got a reward for turning someone in?

The current fine is $37,200.00


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## scottmcd9999 (Jun 29, 2012)

> My state tax number is my SS# I think everyone has one.


They're referring to a SalesTax Exemption certificate, not your FEIN or SSN number. 


> only know what some are doing (selling on line with a resale form). this seems fairly wide spread if not allowed would seem the EPA would stop it or fine them.


Just like what I said to the OP of this question: If those people are okay with willingly breaking the law, then there's little anyone can do to stop them.


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## turnermech (Jul 21, 2012)

scottmcd9999 said:


> They're referring to a SalesTax Exemption certificate, not your FEIN or SSN number.
> 
> Just like what I said to the OP of this question: If those people are okay with willingly breaking the law, then there's little anyone can do to stop them.


If you are a sole proprietor not LLC or incorporated this is you SS#. If that is all it takes to be a reseller it would not be that hard.


The real discussion if how resale is defined and that is probably left up to legal interpretation and to the lawyers. If it is defined by amount purchased than the one jug reseller would be doing so illegally. But resale is vague and I would guess that is the issue. Not for me or anyone to say why someone would want one jug to resell. An argument I suppose could be made for them thinking it is an investment and thinking they can sell for a profit at a later date. After all that is what many of us are doing. The online prices I saw while posting would not make that possible at this at least, but that is not for to say. 


Like I said does not really apply to me so I have not studied the laws. I can buy as much or as little as I want.


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## Ramman (Aug 16, 2012)

*Any Pictures?*

Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of an ac compressor that was cut open to see if in fact the superseal hvacr did in fact clog up and shut the compressor down? A contractor put it in my 80 year old mothers carrier/bryant ac unit and 8 days later the compressor locked up. I removed the compressor and cut it open and would like to see someone elses pictures to compare to mine. Needless to say it cost $3750.00 for a new unit. Can anyone help me out here?


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Did you open it in a moisture and air free environment? If not, I'm sure they will say it formed after you exposed it to air.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Sorry, I don't have any pics.


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## Ramman (Aug 16, 2012)

*super seal*

I actually cut the unit open in front of a carrier/bryant dealer and he said that he was not sure what the super seal looked like inside a compressor but did state that what he saw ( he said was like sawdust particles turned green by the leak detector) was not suppose to be in the compressor and did say that it would have been enough to plug it up and cause it to fail. Can anyone verify that this proudct does resemble sawdust looking particles?


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## NitrNate (May 27, 2010)

as a homeowner, i would never put anything except oil and refrigerant in my lines. if you end up with a compressor burnout, now you have a system full of gunk and possibly a bunch of acid. sounds lovely!


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Ramman said:


> I actually cut the unit open in front of a carrier/bryant dealer and he said that he was not sure what the super seal looked like inside a compressor but did state that what he saw ( he said was like sawdust particles turned green by the leak detector) was not suppose to be in the compressor and did say that it would have been enough to plug it up and cause it to fail. Can anyone verify that this proudct does resemble sawdust looking particles?


You cut the unit open? 
Why? Did the carrier tech evacuate all the Freon before you cut it open? 
So many things wrong with the above statement!
What HVAC guy here would stand there while a homeowner "cut" open his unit?


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Ramman said:


> Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of an ac compressor that was cut open to see if in fact the superseal hvacr did in fact clog up and shut the compressor down? A contractor put it in my 80 year old mothers carrier/bryant ac unit and 8 days later the compressor locked up. I removed the compressor and cut it open and would like to see someone elses pictures to compare to mine. Needless to say it cost $3750.00 for a new unit. Can anyone help me out here?


Lets see your pictures?


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## NitrNate (May 27, 2010)

sublime2 said:


> You cut the unit open?
> Why? Did the carrier tech evacuate all the Freon before you cut it open?
> So many things wrong with the above statement!
> What HVAC guy here would stand there while a homeowner "cut" open his unit?


my assumption would be that the compressor burned out and was replaced properly. he then took the old, burned out compressor that he was responsible for disposing to a dealer and cut it open to see what was inside.

i have seen some cool videos on youtube where they cut open old compressors to see what went wrong, since they are hermetically sealed units.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Update - End of cooling season is almost here for North East, and I promised I would update the status of my 21 yr old a/c system operation after super seal w/dryer and 3 pounds of freon were added for a evap coil leak in early /mid july 2012. 

The unit still starts up easily and seems to cool house with a average 17-19 temp difference from return to closest register. The suction line still is cold/drips water and the liquid line is usually only warm to touch on a average 85 degree day near the condenser unit. This I take to mean that the freon level is still holding for now, or has not lost enough for me to notice. 

I live in a townhouse community which gives me the luxury of hearing a/c units that are the same as mine. As far as I can tell - the sound of my compressor sounds like it always has , and sounds like the other units that I have in ear shot. 

So at least I made it thru the summer and can at least say that -
But we will see, hopefully it will fire right up in the spring , still holding all freon and cooling properly. Only then I can at least feel more confident that I might just be able to get this system across my 3-5 year finish line .


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> Update - End of cooling season is almost here for North East, and I promised I would update the status of my 21 yr old a/c system operation after super seal w/dryer and 3 pounds of freon were added for a evap coil leak in early /mid july 2012.
> 
> The unit still starts up easily and seems to cool house with a average 17-19 temp difference from return to closest register. The suction line still is cold/drips water and the liquid line is usually only warm to touch on a average 85 degree day near the condenser unit. This I take to mean that the freon level is still holding for now, or has not lost enough for me to notice.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update!
I suspect u will get ATLEAST a few more years out of it and when it comes time to replace it,it will not be because of the super seal!.
Thanks again!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sublime2 said:


> and when it comes time to replace it,it will not be because of the super seal!.


Time will tell.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

R.E Michels here won't sell you anything without an account.You neeed a EPA card to get an account.


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## tuanngnt (Apr 1, 2012)

scottmcd9999 said:


> You should instead say "I think I will just buy some STOLEN r22 and gauges off of craigslist".
> 
> Nobody in the HVAC business would sell R22 in builk to end consumers, and especially not for $10 a lb. If you're okay with supporting thieves, then go for it.


 
You are wrong! You can buy from Ebay or Craiglist without any problem.


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## tuanngnt (Apr 1, 2012)

AirstarFilters said:


> Your on to something here,
> 
> Recharging is an HVAC Contractors greatest profit center, they bill out by the lb. Without using a scale, charge 10x the cost per pound and find a way to get 90 lbs out of a 30# drum.


 
I agreed with you 100%. The only thing you know for sure how many lb is using scale; but most tech do not use that because they want to charge alot to customer.


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## carmon (May 8, 2010)

I do not charge 10 times the cost...... wish I did .....


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

carmon said:


> I do not charge 10 times the cost...... wish I did .....


Well then,you would be in the group known as
" the minority ".


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## tampaite (Feb 17, 2013)

ea0680 said:


> Update - End of cooling season is almost here for North East, and I promised I would update the status of my 21 yr old a/c system operation after super seal w/dryer and 3 pounds of freon were added for a evap coil leak in early /mid july 2012.


Hello. Any update on how your A/C is working now?

Am also considering using A/C Sealant to fix minor leaks in the Evaporator coil.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

I apologize for not getting back here early to update on the status of my A/C system this year - after the use of super seal w/dryer in July 2012.

I am happy to report that I am getting the very same cooling ability as last summer after the freon/ super seal w/dryer install. I am getting about 17-18 degrees difference between air going in , compared to air out of vent. The humidity gets brought down to the 49% area. The suction line is dripping wet outside, while the liquid line is about slightly warm. I havent yet gone out to get the exact temperature of the lines at the condensor .

I also listen for any sounds coming from the compressor, but it sounds fine just like it always has, no difference so far.

So, I am pleased with the A/C performace so far - and expecially pleased with not having to get a hvac service for more R22 freon this summer ).


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> I apologize for not getting back here early to update on the status of my A/C system this year - after the use of super seal w/dryer in July 2012.
> 
> I am happy to report that I am getting the very same cooling ability as last summer after the freon/ super seal w/dryer install. I am getting about 17-18 degrees difference between air going in , compared to air out of vent. The humidity gets brought down to the 49% area. The suction line is dripping wet outside, while the liquid line is about slightly warm. I havent yet gone out to get the exact temperature of the lines at the condensor .
> 
> ...


Just what I expected to hear! 
Thanks! 
I'm sure that most will label you as the exception though.


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## JackDidley (Aug 8, 2011)

Interesting read. I have a 1#/year leak in the A coil and was wondering about this.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Ok, I am back to give another update as it looks like the end of the cooling season now in the north east. 

To quickly recap - I had super seal/w dryer installed july 2012 into my 20+ year old trane ac system to solve a freon leak from the evap coil. I am happy to say that I have now completed 2 successful summers of cooling and no (apparent) deterioration of the system effectiveness.

I will report back in late spring 2014 when it gets fired up again.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> Ok, I am back to give another update as it looks like the end of the cooling season now in the north east.
> 
> To quickly recap - I had super seal/w dryer installed july 2012 into my 20+ year old trane ac system to solve a freon leak from the evap coil. I am happy to say that I have now completed 2 successful summers of cooling and no (apparent) deterioration of the system effectiveness.
> 
> I will report back in late spring 2014 when it gets fired up again.



Great news! 
Thanks!


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## JackDidley (Aug 8, 2011)

ea0680 said:


> Ok, I am back to give another update as it looks like the end of the cooling season now in the north east.
> 
> To quickly recap - I had super seal/w dryer installed july 2012 into my 20+ year old trane ac system to solve a freon leak from the evap coil. I am happy to say that I have now completed 2 successful summers of cooling and no (apparent) deterioration of the system effectiveness.
> 
> I will report back in late spring 2014 when it gets fired up again.


:thumbsup: Thanks for the update.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

not a certain cure, for sure. system low pressure needs be below 60 psig first and foremost to add sealant in and even then then chances of it working are slim to none. 

but there are those times when it does work, this sealant is a mere "hope for the best in the event my system has a refrigerant leak to save money in hte meantime" attribute.

kinda like fix-a-flat. although fix-a-flat works each time, but costs more to deal with that tire due to it being in the system.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Doc Holliday said:


> not a certain cure, for sure. system low pressure needs be below 60 psig first and foremost to add sealant in and even then then chances of it working are slim to none.


Lmao! 
But of course!


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

sublime2 said:


> Lmao!
> But of course!


and you quote me and laugh at it why exactly?


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Doc Holliday said:


> and you quote me and laugh at it why exactly?


Because it's so predictable that an HVAC guy would say the chances are slim to none that it will work even after the opposite has been stated.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

sublime2 said:


> Because it's so predictable that an HVAC guy would say the chances are slim to none that it will work even after the opposite has been stated.


Because when we go take our customers hard earned money with an IFFY repair....The 100% repair is to fix the leak by replacement or brazing-then we can guarantee the repair. 

It is great that in this ONE case the crap worked. I have 2 cases just in the last month where it Did not. Why are these 2 cases now my customers? Because they trusted the contractor with the snake oil cure and it failed.


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## Patrick Eubanks (Oct 6, 2011)

*wow*

I always love coming to this site and seeing folks from New Jersey bash the ethics of the HVAC contractors who come here to help the DIY ers.
Classy!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

at the end of the day it *IS* a DIY site fellow Pros. now if no Pro's showed up to help them what a mess or gong show that would be (especially with gas furnaces and bypassing safeties). talk about the blind leading the blind. they are entitled to their views and so are we so hopefully both sides can at least tolerate each other and agree to disagree at times.:yes:


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

sublime2 said:


> Because it's so predictable that an HVAC guy would say the chances are slim to none that it will work even after the opposite has been stated.


I've used sealant to attempt to repair leaks at least 100 times. I think it's worked once. 

This hvac guy tries to do what he can to assist people in repairs, especially those without money. I'm in the field fighting the good fight day in and day out for well over a decade now. When you become an hvac tech and have the experience I have with item xyz, then and only then may your opinion account for something, kind sir. 

I simply tell it like it is, because I know.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sublime2 said:


> Because it's so predictable that an HVAC guy would say the chances are slim to none that it will work even after the opposite has been stated.


 

All of us are happy it currently appears to be working form him. And all of us hope he continues to post yearly updates of how his system is working.

As contractors, many of us have seen the problems from when it didn't work. Or it only held the customer over for a year or 2. And then required more work to replace the system. 

Hopefully he will continue to give us updates.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Patrick Eubanks said:


> I always love coming to this site and seeing folks from New Jersey bash the ethics of the HVAC contractors who come here to help the DIY ers.
> Classy!


You may want to re-read what I said. 
I didn't "bash the ethics "of anyone!


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

2014 UPDATE. Due to the much colder than normal temps in the northeast so far this year, its only really today with temps of near 90 that I can finally test my Trane 23 year old (or so) central air system after a hvac tech installed "Super Seal w/dryer" to fix a slow freon leak at the evaporator coil, about 2 years ago. 

I can say that at this time the A/C is working just as it has the past 2 summers, cuts the the humidity and brings down the temperature within approx the same amount of time . There are no strange sounds or any abnormal actions that I can notice from the compressor. The fat line is still dripping wet /cold and the the small line is warm to the touch. 

My original goal, since the system is so old, was really hoping to get 3 more summers of use , and so far, so good on this goal.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> 2014 UPDATE. Due to the much colder than normal temps in the northeast so far this year, its only really today with temps of near 90 that I can finally test my Trane 23 year old (or so) central air system after a hvac tech installed "Super Seal w/dryer" to fix a slow freon leak at the evaporator coil, about 2 years ago.
> 
> I can say that at this time the A/C is working just as it has the past 2 summers, cuts the the humidity and brings down the temperature within approx the same amount of time . There are no strange sounds or any abnormal actions that I can notice from the compressor. The fat line is still dripping wet /cold and the the small line is warm to the touch.
> 
> My original goal, since the system is so old, was really hoping to get 3 more summers of use , and so far, so good on this goal.


Awesome!


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## tampaite (Feb 17, 2013)

tampaite said:


> Hello. Any update on how your A/C is working now?
> 
> Am also considering using A/C Sealant to fix minor leaks in the Evaporator coil.


*April 2015 Update.* The Cliplight Super Seal Advanced 944KIT worked for 2 years and now am having to replace the entire Bryant evaporator coil since it no longer works.

I bought another can but it didn't work since the leak is probably bigger.

My suggestion is, if you have 10+ yr old A/C unit then try this before replacing it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tampaite said:


> *April 2015 Update.* The Cliplight Super Seal Advanced 944KIT worked for 2 years and now am having to replace the entire Bryant evaporator coil since it no longer works.
> 
> I bought another can but it didn't work since the leak is probably bigger.
> 
> My suggestion is, if you have 10+ yr old A/C unit then try this before replacing it.



Which begs the question. Did it save you money, or cost you more money since a new coil today, will cost more then it would have 3 years ago.


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## tampaite (Feb 17, 2013)

Actually cheaper - previous evaporator coils were made of copper but these days they are made of aluminium and less prone to leaks!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tampaite said:


> Actually cheaper - previous evaporator coils were made of copper but these days they are made of aluminium and less prone to leaks!


They are less prone. But seldom cheaper.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

The superseal could have saved him from getting a copper coil and having another leak.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

user_12345a said:


> The superseal could have saved him from getting a copper coil and having another leak.


Possible.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Copper coils have been around 4 ever. Problem is they went thin on some of them. Some are very good. ADP coils are exellent. Aluminum is a soft metal and from vibration can leak easier than copper and cannot be repaired.

All depends on the manufaturers preference. Like Trane and their goofy spine fin coils. Some people like them and some heat em.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Update From 7/2012 Super Seal install. Its hard to believe so much time has passed already. Anyway, my original goal of 3 summers had been met, I am looking to see if I can get lucky and push it one more summer. So today, with northeast temps finally high enough to test out the now 24 year old trance A/C. . 

I am happy to report that so far, even though not tested in 90 degree weather, the cold air did bring down the house temp in the usual time as prior years. Condensor big line is cold, wet. Compressor sound seems like normal, nothing strange. So if lucky, I will should get another summer out of unit. 

I will note that the end of last summer, my condenser fan did not turn on, causing the compressor to run hot before I caught the problem and shut A/C down. My hvac service guy found the problem was faulty contact and replaced it, along with fan capacitor (it tested on the border line). So I am really hoping this compressor can make it over the finish line. Will update status again end of summer.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Sounds like hit or miss with this stuff - definitely worth trying in old systems that aren't worth fixing properly.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

ea0680 said:


> Update From 7/2012 Super Seal install. Its hard to believe so much time has passed already. Anyway, my original goal of 3 summers had been met, I am looking to see if I can get lucky and push it one more summer. So today, with northeast temps finally high enough to test out the now 24 year old trance A/C. .
> 
> I am happy to report that so far, even though not tested in 90 degree weather, the cold air did bring down the house temp in the usual time as prior years. Condensor big line is cold, wet. Compressor sound seems like normal, nothing strange. So if lucky, I will should get another summer out of unit.
> 
> I will note that the end of last summer, my condenser fan did not turn on, causing the compressor to run hot before I caught the problem and shut A/C down. My hvac service guy found the problem was faulty contact and replaced it, along with fan capacitor (it tested on the border line). So I am really hoping this compressor can make it over the finish line. Will update status again end of summer.


Thank you for your dedication in keeping us updated over the past three years. 
Very happy to hear the superseal performed so well for you!


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## damnitbill (Aug 5, 2015)

*I use super seal*

I have used super seal for a long time and have had no bad experience with it on only slow leaks. The ones that leak a Lb or two a year.

in order to meat EPA requirements YOU! half to do something to keep your but out of jail with a sealer YOU have made an attempt to stop the leak and you are compliant. Again I have had no bad experience with it.

good luck :thumbup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

damnitbill said:


> I have used super seal for a long time and have had no bad experience with it on only slow leaks. The ones that leak a Lb or two a year.
> 
> in order to meat EPA requirements YOU! half to do something to keep your but out of jail with a sealer YOU have made an attempt to stop the leak and you are compliant. Again I have had no bad experience with it.
> 
> good luck :thumbup:


EPA(as in the USA EPA) has no regs requiring the repair of any leaks on residential equipment. And commercial and industrial equipment only need its leak brought below trigger rate, not completely stopped. And since in commercial comfort cooling, the trigger rate for a system containing 50 pounds, is 7.5 pounds a year, a 1 pound a year leak rate does not have to be addressed.

For industrial process, a system containing 50 pounds, doesn't need to have a leak addressed until it leaks out 17.5 pounds a year. Again, no action needs to be taken for a 1 pound a year leak.


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## ea0680 (Jul 28, 2012)

Its been a few years since I updated here on the status of my now 27 year old R22 Trane AC system after Super Seal w/dryer was added to the system to stop a slow leak in evaporator coil in July 2012. 

Ok, here is the status as of today. Original compressor is still working , sounds good and cools the inside with a 16 degree difference from return to supply vent checked at nearest vent closest to unit. Humidity drops normally as well. 

Very happy with the performance of the unit that I originally hoped to get about 3-4 years additional time with before replacing, but instead have gotten 7 years now (so far, summer not over yet). 

However, I am planning on the compressor just dying of old age soon, or any other reason for catastrophic fail, and want to plan ahead with some options so I am not scrambling. I think I am going to move to open a new thread on this new topic - Upgrade or retrofit.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

I haven't read the whole thread, but it sounds like you used it appropriately - extending the life of a very old system not worth fixing properly.


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