# Anyone here have TPO roofing knowlage



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Which brands of thermo-plastic roof membranes have you researched for this project?

Can you, as a non-certified applicator purchase that brand of material?

Have you ever done any hot-air roof membrane welding?

Do you own a $ 475.00 Liester hot air welding gun? What about variable speed screw guns with a clutch to disengage the torque? Not variable speed drills!

Answer those questions first, for a more precise commentary.

Ed


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Genflex was the first to come out with TPO they were recently bought out by Firestone. I think I saw a demo of it at the roofing convention but my memory is slightly foggy. Heat welded seams and flashing details take some training.

RooferJim


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

What benefits does TPO have over the others, esides cost? I have heard that it breaks down rather quickly.


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## parkerfairfield (Apr 28, 2007)

Keep Em Cool! said:


> I’m building a new house with a flat roof (Less than ½” pf pitch) and am installing it my self. I never had much love for modified torch down and am leaning towards TPO. Is hot air the only seaming system for this? Some one had told me there is a peel and stick out there but I haven’t been able to locate it. Now on the other hand if you got a reason for not using TPO I’d like to here them. The rainy season is upon me and I’ve got to seal this girl up fast. The other problem I face is that I will not have all my penetration ready at the same time. Meaning I will have to puncher this several times be for I finish construction. Thanks in advance for any help rendered. Bob:thumbsup:


Some thoughts.

A) the only reason i'll type so much is your first few data points thrown out there; you know the pitch, you're building the house.



B) I know a TON about single ply... I ran quite a few roofing projects ... and did some nifty things with it. One of which was getting the company certifed as installers for:

Certainteed Low Slope Silver Star
Genflex Authorized
IB Authorized
US BRAI Platinum Installer
So ... were we related, and were I to think you had mad skills in the construction department... I'd ask:
1) are you planning on keeping the house more than 9 yrs?
IF NO... then I'd lean TPO
IF YES I'd force you to promise to buy PVC before I explained more.

REASON: Ask any roofer worth his salt what he thinks of 'new products' and using them on purpose. (Cemwood anyone?)

PVC has had the same formula for 29+ years ... that's good.
TPO was first released 13yrs ago. 8-9 yrs ago, due to formulation OOOOPS it was completely reformulated. Now 'it's good' just ask the manufacturers. 

TPO is cheaper. TPO has a wicking seam ... candles wick oil.... TPO wicks water if you cut ANY of the TPO... therefore you need to put sealant on every area. Not easy when you can't see the frigging roof clearly cuz it's so reflective.

You'll be able to call around - try ABC Roofing Supply as they are everywhere - and you'll be able to buy it.

Get the thickest you can if you'll be the a long time. 
If you live where it's cold Get insulation ... as singleply reflectivity (think mirror) is around 80% ... BUT THE IMPORTANT THING is its *emissivity *(think a dorito bag with silver lining, silver lining on the outside next to your grandmas silver knife ... the plastic silver bag is barely warmer than the air. the knife is hot). The emissivity of a asphalt roof is, i think, around 25% (in other words, it SHEDS about 25% of the heat that hits it, retaining the rest). The PVC/TPO sheds about 75% ... so in the ALLL SEASONS your attic will be even colder.

To do the roof with all SA (self adhered) is insane. PVC is the BEST roof on the market... www.IBroof.com has 99% of all roofs installed 28 yrs ago STILL fine, and going strong. and that's their THINNER material.

But to do it SA is crazy. If you're cheap, on a budget, or just 'have to' then go hang outside a roofing shop and find the foreman welder. And have no warranty, and have your ceiling fall in and cost you more than paying a good qualified installer in the first place (not to mention the inconvenience cost).

If you still have to do it... <shrug> then find the 6" wide tape that is made by Genflex... and after you glue down the whole roof, use the tape over every seam just to be less insane.


If you're going to be there awhile, then 100% buy an IB roof www.ibroof.com - as they offer a limited LIFETIME WARRANTY on their material.... and the stuff is the best.... you can TELL the best by looking at the manufacturers DETAILS.... cuz if you've read anything... your roof won't leak in the middle of the field... it'll leak where the water changes direction (a penetration, etc)... IBs are the best.


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## Keep Em Cool! (Apr 22, 2007)

Ed. First off let me address your concerns. Lets start with why I want to do this my self. The people that showed up to give me estimates I wouldn’t trust to scrap paint chips. You talk about creeps. I have been a heavy mechanical contractor for thirty-five years. I don’t know what it is that seams to draw society’s misfits (drunks and drug addicts) to two trades. Namely roofing and sheet metal. We have a fully automated sheet metal facility with one million pound a year capability. So please don’t think that I’m saying this off the hip. I know and it’s not just in my neck of the woods. If there is any one that would like to see the above scenario changed it’s me. I get tired of pulling hairs out of my employee’s heads. Parker Fairfield. I’m going to assume that Parker is your first name and if it is we have something in common. That’s my son’s name and very rare indeed. Parker I can’t thank you enough for showing me a path though the forest. PVC it will be and I will contact IB roofing systems on Monday for a recommendation to a factory-authorized contractor. Thank you gentlemen for your input. Bob:thumbup:


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## parkerfairfield (Apr 28, 2007)

Keep Em Cool! said:


> Ed. First off let me address your concerns. Lets start with why I want to do this my self. The people that showed up to give me estimates I wouldn’t trust to scrap paint chips. You talk about creeps. I have been a heavy mechanical contractor for thirty-five years. I don’t know what it is that seams to draw society’s misfits (drunks and drug addicts) to two trades. Namely roofing and sheet metal. We have a fully automated sheet metal facility with one million pound a year capability. So please don’t think that I’m saying this off the hip. I know and it’s not just in my neck of the woods. If there is any one that would like to see the above scenario changed it’s me. I get tired of pulling hairs out of my employee’s heads. Parker Fairfield. I’m going to assume that Parker is your first name and if it is we have something in common. That’s my son’s name and very rare indeed. Parker I can’t thank you enough for showing me a path though the forest. PVC it will be and I will contact IB roofing systems on Monday for a recommendation to a factory-authorized contractor. Thank you gentlemen for your input. Bob:thumbup:


Bob, yeah, Parker is me. 

I'd be happy to help you out if you run into any issues ... 




Peace.


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## ncgrogan (Dec 3, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned only two companies make thermoplastic roofs.......Fibertite and Sarnafil. If you want a third I would say Carlisle. Same reasons above poster gave for not using TPO...anyone remember what happened with early PVC roofs (ie. Trocal)


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## parkerfairfield (Apr 28, 2007)

ncgrogan said:


> As far as I'm concerned only two companies make thermoplastic roofs.......Fibertite and Sarnafil. If you want a third I would say Carlisle. Same reasons above poster gave for not using TPO...anyone remember what happened with early PVC roofs (ie. Trocal)


Dunno what happened since Firestone bought Genflex ... but prior to the buyout the only 4 roofs that Walmart would spec were Genflex, Sarnafil, Carlisle ... and I forgot. That was one of the reasons we went down the Genflex road.


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## WynsWrld98 (Aug 4, 2007)

*IB Limited Lifetime Warranty but contract says 15-25 years depending on thickness?*

I'm intrigued by the limited lifetime residential warranty of IB roofing but started reading the PDF contract and it states 15-25 year warranty depending on thickness of IB used??!

Just had a contractor out to discuss my failed old flat hot mop roof, approximately 18' x 39', he's a TPO certified installer and swears by it. But reading this thread it sounds like it's unproven due to its age and the fact one formulation of it was recalled adds suspicion and since IB is proven and I'm not hearing anything negative about it, any reason not to go with IB?

The contractor stated he'd rip off the existing hot mop completely and re-grade it then put the TPO over it. The hot mop isn't pitched properly to run water to the drains at the far ends so it was music to my ears to hear him talk about tearing off existing material and repitching the roof. He said the TPO has 30 year warranty but I don't have paperwork on it yet, he's going to write up the proposal which will be for $9000.

From what I described would an IB system be in a similar price range for my 18' x 39' roof including repitching roof?

I went to IB's site and filled out info to have IB certified contractors contact me but in the meantime I'm curious for opinions on this $9000 estimate, thanks.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

you`ll be glad you went w/ IB roof systems:thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Duro-Last has been around "Installed On Roofs" longer than IB Roof Systems, but with that said, the IB membrane is a high quality one also.

Unless Duro-Last has changed their warranty, the residential warranty was for material cost only.

Duro-Last also has 100 % warranty coverage for ponding water on the roof membrane. 

The quality of the installer and his seam welding and his flashing details will determine which roof system will out perform the other, in my opinion.

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

my sources say IB is great while durolast is very thin,and harder to patch into/weld as it gets older


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## WynsWrld98 (Aug 4, 2007)

I went with IB from a certified installer, thanks for the advice!


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## bobbytheroofer (Jun 17, 2009)

To respond I would not install tpo. We haVE A SAYING IN THE ROOFING FIELD.....fREINDS DO NOT SELL FREINDS TPO....use a product like fibertite....its easier to weld and last up to 100% longer...the current formulation for tpo has only been on the market for 7-8 years and is unproven. with all of its history in the feild I would suggest that you stay away


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

*Please HELP flat roof in the desert*

Sorry if I'm not using all the correct terms here :wink:

*We are getting ready to install TPO *on our flat roof fixer in the desert of So Cal and will purchasing it in a couple of days from roofing supply co.

I had a contractor lined up that was going to do Dura Last PVC but my husband said NO he wants to use TPO and do the job himself.

*The brand of TPO he will be using Mulehide*. Has anyone here used that brand? Also using poly iso underneath. He said no glue. Hot air the seams.

I'm scared to death we are going to have leaks. We have never done this type of roofing and he says he can do this himself and it will be easy :huh: I'm worried about the seams. If the seams are not right can they be redone?

Am I worrying for nothing about him doing this huge project by himself with no prior experience  we have aprox 2500 sq ft

~summergirl


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

You are not going to be happy with the results.

1st off, does he own a hot air welding gun and I don't mean a wallpaper glue heat gun. The Leisters cost around $500.00 dollars each and it takes a certain talent and technique to be able to weld the seams without either under or over welding them.

The seams are pretty easy to repair, unless they completely pull apart due to cold welds, which would mean water would rush in and destroy everything underneath.

MuleHide is the Private Label Brand that ABC Supply sells, by the way.

Ed


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

*TPO seams*



Ed the Roofer said:


> You are not going to be happy with the results.
> 
> 1st off, does he own a hot air welding gun and I don't mean a wallpaper glue heat gun. The Leisters cost around $500.00 dollars each and it takes a certain talent and technique to be able to weld the seams without either under or over welding them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed .. Husband Tim has a cheap hot air gun I think new it's 99 bucks. He said this gun goes up to 1100 degrees. I'm really worried about the seams. He said he talked to a MuleHide rep and rep said should not be a problem just takes some practice ... but we will be practicing on our house 

If seams do pull apart because of an under weld or other problem over weld can they be fixed? 

Is it easy to overheat and ruin a seam? 

In your opinion is MuleHide a good product? He is planning TPO mechanically attached. We have an ABC supply store about 30 miles away 

We have been arguing about this all week... I was hoping to relieve my worries a bit  sorry for all the questions. 

_Thanks!_ ~summergirl


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

I should have added info about the hot air gun *Freud HG100* 
Tim plans to use for the seams
*

Product Details*

* Binding: Tools & Hardware

* EAN: 0008925160038

* Features: Perfect replacement for Freud EB100 edge banding system, Temperature range of* 212 to 1100 degrees*, IC control circuit, Covered by 

* Manufacturer: Freud

* Product Group: Home Improvement


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The nozzle is not correct for seam welding. I have never tried one of those, but I know some cheap roofers who have and they continually had to replace them. But, with the correct nozzle would it be good enough for just one job? I don't know. Maybe.

Seams are easy to patch for me, but that is not something that I could say for someone without my experience. Guys that I trained always got their first days worth of seams done wrong, either by over-heating and charring the membrane or under welding and getting false welds. I could go back and pull their seams apart 10 minutes after they thought it was done. I just keep on having them do it over and over again and keep pointing out the faults.

If he is talented and patient, it could be done, but without someone with experience pointing out the defects, he will not know what is right and what is wrong, will he.....?












This is the type of welder that he needs.










Which uses one of these tips.

 
LST-30A1-PS-30A120MM HOT AIR WELDING NOZZLE 20MM WIDE x 2MM ANGLED HOT AIR NOZZLE, STAINLESS STEEL. TYPE 107.123, FITS TRIAC, BAK RION, SIEVERT TH1650 AND MOST OTHER HOT AIR WELDERS.

And he needs one of these.

SILICONE ROLLER 1-5/16 X 1-3/4 INCH MR05020








 


Then he will need either a tack-clay screw driver like this.








*Stanley Tack Claw/puller*

*Overall Rating: *

This product has not yet been reviewed. 








Subscribe to reviews on this product




Or one of these cotter pin pullers to inspect the seams.









*Cotter Pin Puller*

Part # 64 Price$9.50





TPO isthe one membrane out that is gaining a lot of popularity, but has not been time tested in the field long enough under the current chemical formulation.

Others may disagree, but from feedback from guys I trust, they expect just over a 10 year life cycle from TPO.



Ed


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

Ed thanks for all your help and for posting the tools he needs
_
"without someone with experience pointing out the defects, he will not know what is right and what is wrong, will he.....?"_ I agree, wish I knew someone that could do the seam welding :wink:

I think he is going to go for it. I would still like to hire a licensed roofer. 

I'll post some pictures once Tim gets started. Sometimes we can get big rain storms this time of year (monsoon season) hope he is done before then.

I know from doing pool liners there are all sorts of tricks you learn over time. We would have wasted expensive liners if we were not trained on how to install. IMO installing a membrane roof is going to be a lot more difficult! 

_Thanks again! _~summergirl


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

summergirl said:


> *I know from doing pool liners there are all sorts of tricks you learn over time.*
> 
> We would have wasted expensive liners if we were not trained on how to install. IMO installing a membrane roof is going to be a lot more difficult!
> 
> _Thanks again! _~summergirl


You didn't mention that he had experience welding vinyl pool liners before.

He just "might" be able to do a passable job then.

Ed


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Just a side thought, you may want to contact your Homeowners Insurance Agent to see if you are covered with such a technical installation by a non-professional. Not to say he couldn't do a good job, just would you be covered if you filed a major water damage claim? Be safe, G


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

Ed the Roofer said:


> You didn't mention that he had experience welding vinyl pool liners before.
> 
> He just "might" be able to do a passable job then.
> 
> Ed


We haven't done pool liners for a few years and we were younger and in better shape then :wink: also *no welding* on the liners. We installed above ground pools and did replacement liner jobs. The seams were done at the factory. Any small patch jobs just required glue and patch. 

I've learned from past experience just watching a video or reading about something does not mean you can do a job properly. I still feel at the very least we should have help with the seams from an experienced roofer. 

Got a quote back yesterday in email for materials and prices are more from roofing supply than what they quoted over the phone 

I had been leaning towards PVC... had read a lot of positive things about it but Tim is set on doing this himself and TPO is the only roofing material he has been able to find locally.

~summergirl


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## summergirl (Jul 24, 2009)

GBAR in WA said:


> Just a side thought, you may want to contact your Homeowners Insurance Agent to see if you are covered with such a technical installation by a non-professional. Not to say he couldn't do a good job, just would you be covered if you filed a major water damage claim? Be safe, G



Good point! Didn't think of that :huh:

~summergirl


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow lots of people bashing TPO, I also see alot of bashing on EPDM. PVC is nice I will agree with that, but you better open your wallet! As for duralast I wouldnt put it on my dog's house. I dont why but I have seen alot of D/L roofs shatter from hail strikes. Kind of neet looking at fail D/L membrane under a light. Also put 60 mil versico TPO in a deep freeze and hit it with a ballpeen hammer. No breaks there. Wonder what it will do in 5 years. Hope the samples do not get lost by then. Genflex has a TPO seam tape, I have never installed it and will not ever install it I would say that welding if done correctly will be 1000 x's better. Also you will have a hard time with any details, corners and the like. I guess you could tape the seams and then 6" cover tape over it. still not as good as a weld. You could always make friends with someone that can weld PVC and TPO, but beware of people who say they can. Its fairly easy to screw up. I could go on and on but Im not going to if you have any questions feel free to ask.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Summergirl, It sounds like you should do everything you can to stop your husband on his current course of action until he has done a lot of reading and gained a lot more education on the product he wants to use. 

Some of these guys on here have spent years in their trade acquiring knowledge and experience as they go. They are not just getting in on the ground floor of the lates DIY roofing craze. They have the knowledge base to compare these new products to the tried and true products they have been using for years. 

Think about going to the dentist for example. Your husband wouldn't try to drill his own teeth would he? There are DIYable tasks and there are just some things that should be left to the professionals.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

She hasn't posted here since 7-25-09, I hope it didn't leak with all the bad weather....

Gary


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow sorry for bumping an old post, some other guys posted this thread on CT and was ranting and raving about how this person was, guess I got cought up in the moment!


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

I take offense to your statement about being a drunk and a drug addict. I am a roofing contractor. I have been roofing for 13 years. I am neither a drunk nor a drug addict. I consider myself to be a professional who chooses to work within the roofing industry. 

Are there some bad roofers? Absolutely, but there are many good roofers as well. Just like there are many bad customers.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Ready to go grab that beer? :laughing:


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