# Bar framing: 2x4 or 2x6 framing?



## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm adding a bar to my basement, and I'm considering a concrete bar top. 

It'll be L-shaped, (7.5' long on one stretch, and 4.5' on the other) and anchored to the floor with tap cons. 

Would a 2x4 frame have enough strength should I decide on a concrete top? Or would I be better off with a 2x6 frame? (I would prefer a 2x4 to save space... But I don't feel like having it fall apart if I have 4 rowdy guys leaning on it)


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

2x4 should be more than sufficient.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

gizzygone said:


> I'm adding a bar to my basement, and I'm considering a concrete bar top.
> 
> It'll be L-shaped, (7.5' long on one stretch, and 4.5' on the other) and anchored to the floor with tap cons.
> 
> Would a 2x4 frame have enough strength should I decide on a concrete top? Or would I be better off with a 2x6 frame? (I would prefer a 2x4 to save space... But I don't feel like having it fall apart if I have 4 rowdy guys leaning on it)



If you are planning a concrete countertop, you should build the framing to support that. Does that make sense? (It isn't the framing dimension that matters.)


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

It makes sense: but I suppose the bigger concern I have is leverage: to me it seems a 2x6 would have more surface area with the floor, so there would be more area to zap the frame into the floor, and it'd be less prone to tipping. 

I know the fact that I'm building it L shaped means I have a bit of counter-lever, but I wasn't sure it'd be enough.


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## Wild Willard (Sep 22, 2015)

2x6 would be better. Wider foot print and a bit more support for the concrete top. Sheeting one side/face with plywood will add additional support/stability for the concrete also.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

2 x 12 is even better........


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

2x12 wouldn't be a bad idea: except cost....

I toyed with the idea of using cabinets under the bar top for storage, but I'd rather build my own storage (nothing fancy)


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

:surprise: gizzy, I was being sarcastic....


Most bars that are not portable start with a base. The frame of the base is anchored to the floor ( inside/outside of frame) using ell brackets.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

I hear you. Honestly I was considering a frame using wider planks, and then adding shelves in between. 

I'll have to find some good photos of bars song made to really get an idea here


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

Got any plans or pics? What was your inspiration? I understand L shaped, but what does the rest look like? Simple flat top, or raised bar w/lower part behind for mixing drinks, storage, etc.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

gizzygone said:


> It makes sense: but I suppose the bigger concern I have is leverage: to me it seems a 2x6 would have more surface area with the floor, so there would be more area to zap the frame into the floor, and it'd be less prone to tipping.
> 
> I know the fact that I'm building it L shaped means I have a bit of counter-lever, but I wasn't sure it'd be enough.




I'm confused by what you're trying to do. Most people put in casework, and then build a countertop on that using plywood. They don't frame it using dimensional lumber. A granite top is heavy, and it is routinely installed on top of casework.

It is common practice to build a wall counter height behind the casework to get a 30" top, for example. Then just double up the studs at the corners like any wall. Are you planning on having cabinets below the counter?


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

No pics yet, but some design ideas in mind, based off of some of the bars we've been to. 

I'm thinking a hybrid-type bar: I'm thinking I'll scrap the second counter below the bar for drink prep, just to have more bar top. I figured a 28" or so bar top will allow us to use the bar for card games as well (giving some space between players sitting at the bar, and those behind. 

The bar itself will be in a corner of the room. I figured about 5 people would comfortably fit at it with swivel stools. I'm figuring 7.5' for the main span and 4.5' for the smaller span for 2 people. 

For the back bar, I'm going with traditional kithen height counters. Drink prep can happen on those counters easier. And since I'm not a bartender, I don't care so much about the showmanship portion of mixing drinks for guests. I figured two under-counter fridges would eat up most of the back bar, along with a dishwasher down the road (I'd take our kitchens dishwasher and replace it with a more delux model).


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

Here's a wet bar I built for a friend using maple cabinet grade plywood and hard maple for the face frame, doors and drawer fronts. It is individual cabinets attached together. They had the granite top installed. It looks much better when you see it in person.

They love to party and are hard core football fans.

Did I mention they love it? Yeppirs.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

keymaster said:


> gizzygone said:
> 
> 
> > It makes sense: but I suppose the bigger concern I have is leverage: to me it seems a 2x6 would have more surface area with the floor, so there would be more area to zap the frame into the floor, and it'd be less prone to tipping.
> ...


This is all new to me, as you can tell by now! 

Here's my thoughts on how to build this: I was going to simply start with a 2x4 or 2x6 "half wall" (for lack of a better term), built up to a bar height. I was then going to add plywood to the outer portion of the bar and dress it up. 

For the top, I was planning on slapping a countertop on, most likely adding steel brackets to support the overhang. 


On the back side of the bar (where the tender works) I was on the fence about modifying stock upper cabinets to go under the bar top for storage.... Or using plywood and building my own shelving system for bottles.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

MT Stringer said:


> Here's a wet bar I built for a friend using maple cabinet grade plywood and hard maple for the face frame, doors and drawer fronts. It is individual cabinets attached together. They had the granite top installed. It looks much better when you see it in person.
> 
> They love to party and are hard core football fans.
> 
> Did I mention they love it? Yeppirs.


Beautiful look to it! I'm guessing you're a professional cabinet maker?


Mine most definitely won't be looking like that: for lack of tools and skill


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

gizzygone said:


> Beautiful look to it! I'm guessing you're a professional cabinet maker?
> 
> 
> Mine most definitely won't be looking like that: for lack of tools and skill


No, Just a retired refinery worker. :biggrin2:

But I do like to sling sawdust.

A couple of thoughts...

The wet bar is 20 inches deep. Just enough so the refrigerator would fit and not stick out. I also measured the height to make sure there wouldn't be any interference when the counter top was installed.

Size of the sink is also a factor. I made them commit on a sink before building the cabinets. It fit with no problem.

Cabinets were built using prefinished birch so no finishing required for the inside. :biggrin2: Drawer slides and door hinges are soft close. The drawer hdw is full extension.

One more thought. If you use granite for the top, a deck of 3/4 inch plywood should be put down first. So, build your cabinet(s) 1 1/2 inches less than the final height. Example: Typical kitchen cabinets are 34 1/2 inches tall, but the finished height is 36 inches.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

MT Stringer said:


> gizzygone said:
> 
> 
> > Beautiful look to it! I'm guessing you're a professional cabinet maker?
> ...


Excellent tips, thank you!

I've been using my kitchen cabinets as sizing references. I was thinking 24" cabinets for the back bar, thinking that I could future proof my design should a fridge die on me. 

That being said, I guess I should start looking up refrigerator specs online now to get an idea. If I could cut my cabinets down to 20" in the rear, I'd open up some more workspace for me to move around in


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

Sounds good. Good luck.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

Base cabinets are a stock size for a reason. I wouldn't vary those dimensions unless you clearly understand what you are doing (and no offense, but you don't). Sinks are a stock size, equipment, everything. I would use stock base cabinets unless you want problems later.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

keymaster said:


> Base cabinets are a stock size for a reason. I wouldn't vary those dimensions unless you clearly understand what you are doing (and no offense, but you don't). Sinks are a stock size, equipment, everything. I would use stock base cabinets unless you want problems later.


You're right.... I don't. But that's why I'm here; to try and figure this out


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

There are many good resources on cabinet dimensions on the Internet. If you visit a manufacturer website you'll see many diagrams. (One of the big hardware stores might have a kitchen planning guide.) If you want to drop a sink into a cabinet, you need the size to be standard--a 33" sink fits a 36" base cabinet, for example. All standard cabinets will be the same depth, and the same height. The width will vary in predictable increments like 18", 24" or 36". The toe kick will be 4". If you have a dishwasher, it will be 22" wide. It's too complicated to take up here, which is why I recommend using standard sizing.


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

When I think of a bar, with stools and such, 42 inches is pretty standard. That's why I suggested and second lower level for drink prep and such.

I was working on a drawing for a kitchen breakfast bar addition to a friends existing cabinets, but they changed their mind.

It would look like this...


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## bmathews (Sep 22, 2015)

The ply top is so interesting because that's not done in the east. You just slap 3cm granite on top. 

There's a company which makes some pretty sturdy countertop brackets for floating counters. 

http://www.countertopbracket.com/Countertop-Supports-Floating-Inside-Wall-Mount-p/fwm.htm


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

You'll be fine with a 2x4 wall 40.5" tall. Attach it to the wall framing on one end, at the other end incorporate another small "L" which wont be seen because it will be covered by the bar top. Once attached to the floor its not going anywhere and it'll hold as much weight as you can put on it. IMHO plywood on top would be a waste as it really wont provide any strength to the top.


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## bmathews (Sep 22, 2015)

12penny said:


> You'll be fine with a 2x4 wall 40.5" tall. Attach it to the wall framing on one end, at the other end incorporate another small "L" which wont be seen because it will be covered by the bar top. Once attached to the floor its not going anywhere and it'll hold as much weight as you can put on it. IMHO plywood on top would be a waste as it really wont provide any strength to the top.


That bar looks awesome!

I think the plywood is because there is a tendency to use 2cm granite out west with a plywood base. In the east, I see 3cm granite and no playwood.


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

bmathews said:


> That bar looks awesome!
> 
> I think the plywood is because there is a tendency to use 2cm granite out west with a plywood base. In the east, I see 3cm granite and no playwood.


I think they worry about the granite cracking.

My house was built in 1983 and it has the plywood base under the bar top. When we remodeled the kitchen, the installer put down a new wooden base for the bar top, but not for the kitchen base cabinets. We put in Silstone quartz material.


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## MT Stringer (Oct 19, 2008)

12penny said:


> You'll be fine with a 2x4 wall 40.5" tall. Attach it to the wall framing on one end, at the other end incorporate another small "L" which wont be seen because it will be covered by the bar top. Once attached to the floor its not going anywhere and it'll hold as much weight as you can put on it. IMHO plywood on top would be a waste as it really wont provide any strength to the top.


Very nice work. Looks awesome.


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## gizzygone (Jul 26, 2012)

12penny said:


> You'll be fine with a 2x4 wall 40.5" tall. Attach it to the wall framing on one end, at the other end incorporate another small "L" which wont be seen because it will be covered by the bar top. Once attached to the floor its not going anywhere and it'll hold as much weight as you can put on it. IMHO plywood on top would be a waste as it really wont provide any strength to the top.


Nice bar. Did you use custom cabinets for the work? Or did you build it all out yourself?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Thanks, always nice to hear. Shop built because of custom sizes. Sapele mahogany. The pictures don't show it, but the strips in the sapele look great in the right light.


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