# Is it ever safe for DIYers to do electrical repairs?



## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

It depends on the diyer. For the most part I've been doing diy electrical repairs for close to 50 yrs. IMO it isn't that difficult although there are those that just shouldn't attempt it.


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## Admin (Dec 8, 2003)

mark sr said:


> It depends on the diyer. For the most part I've been doing diy electrical repairs for close to 50 yrs. IMO it isn't that difficult although there are those that just shouldn't attempt it.


I'm one of those people that can find a way to get shocked changing a lightbulb. Don't judge! :vs_laugh:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Some times it is the little you that can be dangerous. Same is true for every trade.
People doing things the way their dad did it years ago. And things are much different today.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Cricket said:


> I'm one of those people that can find a way to get shocked changing a lightbulb. Don't judge! :vs_laugh:


Don't put your finger in the socket.:devil3:


As stated above, it all depends on the individual doing the work.

And experience is the best teacher.

Most people are smart enough to do simple DIY electrical, then there are the book smart, but task stupid, that should stay away.

ED


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Crickette...... Those are good tips.

And I don't think your question has an answer... as there is such a wide varience in the term DIY'er.

Am I a DIY'er, as I am not a licensed electrician, is anyone not licensed a DIY'er.

I definately would be a DIY'er (and incompetatnt) playing around commercial or 3 phase.

Besides being probably the most dangerous DIY'er project, it is often also one of the most misunderstood, or at least most technically oriented DIY'er project.

I do think sites like this do serve to educate (or warn) less experienced DIY'ers as to the correct and safe way to handle residential wiring..... and considering that DIY'ers are going to F around electrical in any event, more education can't hurt anything.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

de-nagorg said:


> Don't put your finger in the socket.:devil3:
> 
> 
> As stated above, it all depends on the individual doing the work.
> ...


ED.... Interesting point........ I had to help an fellow with an electrical engineering degree (book smart...not trade experienced) recognise and understand a MWBC in his home.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Mtn: Yep, I too have encountered those with Phd's, that could not do anything that took a "common sense" touch to do.

Was talking to one once that was trying to "grease" his brakes, by putting the grease gun on the Bleeder valve.

ED


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

The one tip in the attachment I disagree with is the insulated tools. 

There is no reason to use them if you turn the power off and then test to insure all power in the box is off. If its cord and plug connected, pull the plug.

Maintaining a safe working distance from any energized part is the best safety you can have. Insulated tools encourage many beginners to shortcut things (leaving power on) and get to close because they believe they are "safe".

Rated insulated tools and safety equipment are only safe when properly used and cared for. They can be compromised if misused.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Cricket said:


> I'm one of those people that can find a way to get shocked changing a lightbulb. Don't judge! :vs_laugh:



No judging from me! Back when I was about 10 yrs old I was tasked with cleaning up my daddy's work bench. I came across a plug - no cord, just a replacement plug. My little pea brain figured the best place to store it was in a receptacle. ... so I plugged it in, blew the fuse and I landed across the room next to the furnace. I replaced the fuse, washed the black off of both the wall and me _and kept my mouth shut :wink2:_


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

Fact is I've only seen poor work done by DIY'rs. Some really bad, some not so bad, but none that was better than C-. 
I wouldn't buy a property that had more than lights, switches, receptacles installed by HO/DIY'r.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

With some trades danger can be seen, felt or smelled. With electricity there is usually no warning of danger until it is felt, like the time when I was 16 working in a machine shop was hit by 240 that luckily staggered me backwards about 30 ft.

The boss heard the 40 lb. casting hit the concrete floor, saw me staggering backward and came running to determine what had happened. I couldn't talk for several minutes but still standing with my back against a work bench that stopped me from staggering backward. 

I don't do electric. I can't see it, smell it and really don't care for the feel of it because it doesn't give me that warm fuzzy feeling girls did at that age.:vs_laugh:


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I'll just round it out and state there is a threshold that every person has when it comes to electrical repairs or electricity in general, including changing light bulbs  Once that threshold is reached, and the brain kicks in, it is time to call in a pro. To some DIY'ers it is opening the panel up to the snake pit of cables and wires. Some just have problems pulling a receptacle out or a switch to fully understand what is happening. For them, there should be no shame in calling in a pro to help........OR come to the forums and learn.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Oh, one correction, i kind of do electric so tell me if this doesn't count. When I wash Ole Faithful's condenser I turn the breaker(s)off, i think there are 2 tied together some way, and pull what I believe my tech told me is a disconnect that's stuck in the side of the house by the unit. Anyway it looks serious like it could hurt me real bad. I have some wet weather rubber low cuts my wife calls my Elmer Fudds that I slip my moccasins I'm wearing into and keep one hand behind my back. 

Give me high pressure Natural Gas to work with.:smile:


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Oh, one correction, i kind of do electric so tell me if this doesn't count. When I wash Ole Faithful's condenser I turn the breaker(s)off, i think there are 2 tied together some way, and pull what I believe my tech told me is a disconnect that's stuck in the side of the house by the unit. Anyway it looks serious like it could hurt me real bad. I have some wet weather rubber low cuts my wife calls my Elmer Fudds that I slip my moccasins I'm wearing into and keep one hand behind my back.
> 
> Give me high pressure Natural Gas to work with.:smile:


Why does one hand behind your back do? Keep you from touching something that can promote electricity running thru you? That's badly phrased.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

The first rule of any DIY’er is to take the advice of Inspector Harry “Dirty Harry” Callahan…, “A man has got to know his limitations”

IMO this rule applies to no DIY project more so than those involving electricity. 

I will change outlets, switches, fixtures and appliances but I know where to draw the line, for instance when my breaker panel needed to be replaced. While I fully understood the mechanics and the process involved, I also knew beyond any doubt I was not qualified to perform the work and doing so was not worth the risk to my life. 

If you have any doubts whatsoever about an electrical project (or any project for that matter, call in a professional. 

Here is a bit of humor with regards to the aforementioned breaker panel replacement. When the electrician whet to reconnect the mains to the meter base I told him to wait. I went back into the garage and grabbed a four-foot 2x4 out of my wood rack. I went back out to the meter, stood to one side of him and told him to “Ok, go ahead”. He completely understood what I was doing. He smiled and said “thank you” and then proceeded to connect the live wires.

For anyone who does not understand, I had the 2x4 in case something went wrong and he accidentally touched off the 220v line. If instead of getting thrown the electricity grabbed him, I would use the 2x4 to knock him away from the wire. NEVER grab a person who is holding a live voltage line.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Drachenfire said:


> The first rule of any DIY’er is to take the advice of Inspector Harry “Dirty Harry” Callahan…, “A man has got to know his limitations”
> 
> IMO this rule applies to no DIY project more so than those involving electricity.
> 
> ...


Your electrician should not have been connecting live wires. He should have had the POCO do a disconnect. Was the job permitted and inspected?

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

The electrician was licensed, the job permitted, properly inspected and signed off on. 

Licensed electricians here are permitted to move live wires at the residence. 

I did ask about the local utility cutting the power. 

He explained if we did it that way there was no telling when they could schedule the job and that I would likely have to do without power for at least 24 hours as they often never get back out to turn the power back on the same day. 

This also means moving the inspection down until the power was re-activated.


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

In two of the four homes I've owned, I've upgraded from either 100 or 150 amp service panels to 200 amp panels, doing everything but reconnecting the new meter myself after getting the requisite guidance from the Power Company and plant electricians where I worked. I received nothing but compliments from the inspectors and Power Co. folks doing the final re-connects for me. I've also learned how to re-wire circuits for higher loads and add circuits to the main panel throughout the house. I've never done any three phase stuff, though, and not sure I want to, but I'm willing to dig into it to see if that hits my "limitations" because I really want to upgrade my shop to include a couple of three-phase motors on some new and larger woodworking equipment. My home sale inspectors have also always been quite complimentary of my work. It CAN be done right and properly by DIYers, but it takes very pointed precautionary prep education before attempting the work.

Thus far, the only time I knew I had hit my limit was when we ended up with a really strange scenario of partial power in my 240v circuits one Sunday morning. I immediately called in a professional sparky (electrician), and he quickly determined that one of the main underground leads coming to the house had a short in it, so we shut the house panel down, called the Power Company, and they had me up and running within 4 hours on a temporary power pack until they could get the underground wired spliced the next morning.

In my early (and young & stupid) days, I've done light switches while hot, and WILL NOT do that any more. I even tried doing some receptacle replacements while hot, and I'll NEVER do that again either. I've worked on circuits after throwing what I THOUGHT was the right breaker and then NOT tested... and I WILL NOT do that any more either! The biggest thing I've learned is to TEST 100% of the work you open up -- AT LEAST TWICE -- before ever touching it. 

Relying on your comfort level is not enough because your comfort level may be driven by ignorant over-confidence, and that can get you hurt or killed on the spot, or even worse can create a fire which can be even more devastating. You must KNOW that you REALLY KNOW what you're doing and ALWAYS TEST and RETEST BEFORE TOUCHING!


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I absolutely will not do any electrical work on hot circuits. 

Before its replacement my panel was a mess. Breakers were either mislabeled or not at all. Whenever I had to do electrical work and there was any doubts about the breakers I would just kill the main to the whole house and still use the tester to verify.

After the panel was replaced, the electrician mapped the house for me. There is usually a charge for this but he was nice enough to do it for free. (However, the pizza lunch I shared with him might have been a factor). 

I did give him a nice tip for a well done job though. His quality of work was light years ahead of the original electrician.


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

As far as I will go today with a hot circuit is take off the switch/receptacle cover to test the wire connections on the said switch/receptacle to verify whether or not it is alive.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

While I refuse to work on hot lines, I've worked with several electricians over the years that did, not their preferred method but it depends on the circumstances.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Drachenfire said:


> The electrician was licensed, the job permitted, properly inspected and signed off on.
> 
> Licensed electricians here are permitted to move live wires at the residence.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^DITTO^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had to have the poco extend a latteral feed for a new main I was putting in... and they did it live.... I was amazed..... he was down in a wet ditch and had to do a crimp connector and fancy waterproffing epoxy injecting or something... and it was live.

They connect their meter live.....

Ya know something else that sorta of amazed me, at least several crews who do the poco work, really know very little else about residential wiring.

They are like trained specialists in just several connections in the electrical grid.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> Ya know something else that sorta of amazed me, at least several crews who do the poco work, really know very little else about residential wiring.


Why should a person schooled in distribution work know a lot about the residential wiring/the NEC? They work to entirely different codes and procedures.

Some of them do, but they may give you the I don't know versus the I am not supposed to work/answer questions past the meter answer.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Oso954 said:


> Why should a person schooled in distribution work know a lot about the residential wiring/the NEC? They work to entirely different codes and procedures.
> 
> Some of them do, but they may give you the I don't know versus the I am not supposed to work/answer questions past the meter answer.


Yes.... On second thought as you point out,....I guess it is not strange..... 

it was just strange they were asking me questions......:smile:


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Oso954 said:


> Why should a person schooled in distribution work know a lot about the residential wiring/the NEC? They work to entirely different codes and procedures.
> 
> Some of them do, but they may give you the I don't know versus the I am not supposed to work/answer questions past the meter answer.


This the normal in most utility work. I worked telco for a number of years. The pole crews new how to set poles, strand and hang cable but knew nothing about splicing, installing or troubleshooting phone service. Most but not all splicers often knew maintenance and installs because it was a stepping stone to their current position. 

But even among maintenance/installs and splicers there were sub-groups. Some of those guys could not work aerial with gaffs which precludes them from some jobs.

One year following a hurricane we had contractors pouring in to help with restoration. Since the majority of the infrastructure is aerial, about half of them had to be sent back because they could not gaff a pole.


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## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

This OP is one of the spooky questions that run through my mind before I ever hit "send" on my reply to a electrical question, for someone asking for electrical help on the internet. 

How much danger is my "help" putting the person in, that may not even have a basic understanding of what they are working on electrically ? How can I, while reading their replies, determine their skill levels and reading comprehension ? 

Knowing this, I am trying to wean myself slowly from replying to questions on the electrical forums now.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Gregsoldtruck79 said:


> This OP is one of the spooky questions that run through my mind before I ever hit "send" on my reply to a electrical question, for someone asking for electrical help on the internet.
> 
> How much danger is my "help" putting the person in, that may not even have a basic understanding of what they are working on electrically ? How can I, while reading their replies, determine their skill levels and reading comprehension ?
> 
> Knowing this, I am trying to wean myself slowly from replying to questions on the electrical forums now.



It is for this reason that we need to emphasize that people contact a professional if there is *any doubt *whatsoever about their ability to perform the task. 

No home improvement/repair is worth the risk of serious injury or death.

I cringe when I similar reckless behavior right here in my neighborhood. Some guy doing an oil change or fixing his breaks on a sloped driveway, the car up on a cheap scissor jack with no wheel blocks or jack stands. I have seen homeowners mowing their grass in shorts and an old pair of tattered sneakers. One bad slip in either situation results in a trip to the ER or the possibly the morgue.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Interesting thread.


While I have done a variety of electrical changes, including some while on a hot circuit, there is a limit.


My current home has a split wiring system. a Zinsco panel outside that has a few 120v beakers, and many 240 breakers with some feeding a couple sub panels, I will not mess with that Zinsco panel as there is no main. The rails are live at all times. The only way to kill that power is to pull the meter.


Nope, that Zinsco panel is well over my pay grade....:smile:


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## Todd82TA (Mar 20, 2018)

General rule for me is, I can and will do EVERYTHING, unless... I have to mess with the breaker box, or do anything with 220 volts other than simply replace the receptacle. Then, I call an electrician... not only that but because you'll want receipts for the work for the benefit of home resale. They want to make sure you're doing it right.


Wiring 3-way can still be a little complicated... just need to plan it out, everything else is pretty much easy. Just follow the codes as they are laid out already in the home if it's new enough (receptacle height, ground, etc...) or use NEC codes to verify. Always a good idea to upgrade everything existing to modern current code when possible.


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## Cariessa (Jun 8, 2018)

I'm actually a journeyman maintenance electrician. My certification came from the State Board of Labor and my factory Union. I have no problem working hot 480 3x, with the proper tools and ppe of course.

However, teaching my son and nephew, or anyone else, how to do their own electrical home maintenance, I always enforce working DEAD. I also teach them to TREAT EVERYTHING AS IF IT IS HOT. Each of my boys also know how to use testing equipment (tweeters, wiggys, and VOMs) to make sure that what they are working on is dead, but breakers can fail, mains can fail, and testing equipment can fail. Treat everything as if it were hot, never touch the exposed end of a wire unless absolutely necessary, always hold it where it is insulated, and never touch the conductive points of a device once a wire is connected, any wire, even the ground, because you don't know what someone before you has done. (Yes, I've seen green wires hooked up as hot wires) And make sure you are to code. If you don't have a code book, Google it.

I have dealt with the nightmare of my fathers DIY wiring. I have to say most of the actual wiring was adequate, but definitely not code. However there have been moments.... At one point he lost power to his garage and could not figure out why. I discovered he had buried 12/2 Romex about 3in deep from a 45a breaker in the house to run power to his garage. (He did ground his distribution box in the garage to a copper rod 😁) Apparently he started with a smaller breaker but it kept tripping so he kept replacing the breaker with a larger one. There were 12 outlets, five 8ft fluorescent lights, and a garage door opener on that circuit. 
That little number 12 did all it could for 40 years but finally burned in half underground about 2 feet from the house. So. Lucky.

My answer to the question is this: if DIYers have some knowledge of electricity, use proper testing equipment, know how to look up code and understand it, then by all means do your own home wiring.

But if you have no knowledge of electricity, are the least bit uncomfortable with what you are trying to do, or if you don't have the proper equipment to make sure what you're working on is dead, (and always work dead) please call a licensed, bonded, electrician.


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## Mike Milam (Mar 3, 2017)

I'm just a DIYer and do all my own electrical work around home. I learned most of what I know from my starter wife's dad who was a master electrician. But if some one asks me how to do something I usually either do the repair for them (family or very good friends) or direct them to a professional. I don't want the feeling I enabled some one to become injured or killed. I know that's sort of contrary to the purpose of this forum, sorry.


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