# After foam board insulation completed question.



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

There should be conditioned air circulation in the basement. 

Are the rim joists sealed and insulated.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Yes they are all seald up.

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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Any ductwork in the basement? You just need some air circulation and conditioning at this point. 

If the whole home (i.e. in total) is super tight, you may need to look at an HRV or ERV.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

No ductwork just a oil tank washer dryer boiler and soon to be play area. 

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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

I was looking into a air exchanger unit 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Once the basement is sealed and insulated it becomes part of the upstairs conditioned space and can benefit from sharing that air. Opening a window or venting outside air into the basement may introduce a lot of moisture from the humid air. 

An HRV can exchange inside with outside air when needed but you haven't determined that need as yet. A blower door test is one method. But when not needed it says the house is already exchanging enough air.

Are you running ac upstairs and where are you located?

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

They did the door test last year for my energy audit. I'm Located in new York city. The a.c. is on all day on my upstairs main floor the bsmt is below level 

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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Do you have air supply to replace what you and the dryer and the boiler are using.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

No air supply coming in unless windows are open. Boiler uses are inside the bsmt 

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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

charles3526 said:


> No air supply coming in unless windows are open. Boiler uses are inside the bsmt
> 
> Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk


We do rooms under the garage out here that end up being a concrete box with a door from the basement. They have a fresh vent and a bathroom exhaust that runs when the light is on. That usually gets closed off when the conditioning is added.

But the boiler or furnace needs air for the fire anyway.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Yeah so the air intake is just taking it from the air in the basement 

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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

So maybe I should get two exchangers if I'm gonna close off part of the basement and install each one on the side of the basement walls by the boiler and then in the other room?

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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

This is what I was looking at buying 









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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Do you have the blower door numbers, CFM50 or ACH. (cubic feet per minute at 50 Pascals) or (Air Changes Per Hour at 50 or natural)?

Those numbers will tell you whether fresh air is needed or not.

Example, a house at the borderline of needing additional fresh air will be exchanging all of the inside air with outside air every 3 hours. Even a reasonably tight home will be exchanging all of its air every 4 hours, so adding more is just a waste of energy. The unit you pictured just blows air with no attempt to recover the energy for what is being blown out.

Combustion air for your boiler has specific requirements in terms of vent size and location and the dual fan you pictured would not meet those requirements.

Do you get condensation on your windows in the winter. In a cold climate a tight house will have high indoor humidity and window condensation becomes an indicator. If not, the house does not need to exchange more air. Those blower door numbers will confirm.

The basement air does need to mix with the conditioned air from upstairs which is easy when you have a forced hot air system, but needs another solution with baseboard hot water heat.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I would supply fire air for the boiler as required and at the other end of the basement add a bathroom exhaust fan controlled by a humidistat. That will control moisture and help move warm air from the area of the boiler. The dryer will use the same air as the fire air.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Sorry I don't have the numbers it was w years ago they did the energy audit. Do what can I do just leave the window open there's really no humidity down there any more. 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The energy auditor that tested will have those numbers if you can reach him. Without them you will have to judge and trust me. From experience, not just mine, unless a house was built right from the start to be very tight it is at best average and at best can be improved only slightly after initial construction. The measures needed to get well below the one air change every 3 hours just can't be done once the house is up. That's not bad it just means you don't need to be venting more air into or out of the house, exception is combustion air which as I said has its own guidelines.

If you need to exchange the air down there install a small fan to blow conditioned air from above down and provide a vent to allow some to return upstairs. This will work for summer and winter.

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hello here are the results of the door blower test.

Your building Shell Leakage was determined to be 1692 cfm50.

Current industry standards indicate that your Building Air

Tightness Limit is 855 cfm50.

Shell Leakage indicates how much air is leaking into your home.


If a Blower Door test was performed, the leakage was calculated

from measurements taken during this test. If no test was

performed, the leakage was estimated based on your building

volume and the age and overall condition of your home.

The Building Air Tightness limit indicates how much air should be

leaking so you have fresh air even when the windows and doors

are closed.

Given that your leakage is 98% greater than the limit, it is

recommended that airsealing be performed to improved the

comfort of your home and reduce unnecessary leakage.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

How much air sealing has been done since that blower door test?

Even when you get down to their "industry standards" you are still replacing all inside air (on average) every three hours and standard air sealing rarely gets you there.

Your problem is not fresh air for the house but exchanging air from the basement with the rest of the house since conditioned air will meet your summer and winter needs.

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Attic bsmt the whole house they took pcs of siding off and drilled holes and sprayed all in side the walls of the house to basically the whole house on the walls 

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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hello bud 
Basically u are saying that I need to exchange air within my house and not being it inside from the outside and exhaust the hot air out. So how can I exchange or circulate the air through the bsmt and the first floor being that I have a ranch house. 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Circulating air from the basement to the ranch above can be as simple as a bath fan blowing air from basement to a grill in the wall upstairs or some added ducts as part of the air conditioning system.

Does the house currently have any air ducts?

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

No ducts at all. Main area has wall a.c.
Wanted to get mini split but that's another time. 


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Your home may not be super tight but far tighter than homes were 30 years ago. Modern construction and energy efficiency measures have created homes that are too tight, thus that reference to the industry standard for targeted air leakage, they try to stop air sealing at that point. Along with modern tighter homes comes the need for ventilation, air circulation, and combustion air and you can throw in radon mitigation and indoor air quality in general. That said, adding a modest network of air ducts and a circulation system is just part of modern construction, even an HRV if it were in the budget. 

Difficult for me from long distance to put together a full list of options but done right it could reduce your energy costs and improve your comfort. Locally I would suggest you search for someone promoting IAQ (indoor air quality) and talk to them to see what they can suggest while seeing first hand what you have. Most states will have an air quality group and perhaps can direct you.

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hello so I would need something like this with it pulling air from the bsmt through a duct system also connecting it to a cutout in the first floor then xspell out in the attic? So basically not bringing air from out side just pulling air through the house and expelling it? 










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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

When you expell air into the attic or out of the house anywhere that air MUST be replaced and does so by leaking in everywhere it can. Circulating air between basement and upstairs means blowing air from basement to upstairs and providing an opening where the same amount of air can come back down.

I don't recall the size of your house but for every 1,000 ft² at 8' high you would have 8,000 cubic feet of volume. If you have 2,000 ft² that would be 16,000 cubic feet. The fan you listed would move all of the air in a 2,000 ft² house in less than 3 minutes, about 10 times faster than what you need. 

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hey bud I believe this is the sqft of our house. 










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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

So how much of a unit would I need?

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Most circulating fans I see offered are intended to exchange heating or cooling during those seasons, but all you need is a trickle of air flow, preferably from upstairs to downstairs. The fan that comes to my mind first would be a Radon fan because they are designed to run 24/7 for many years. Installed downstairs it could pull air from a vent anywhere you want upstairs and discharge it into the basement. This unit is rated at 137 cfm. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Fantech-...MI9ZaH_9yB1QIVRG5-Ch3oLwhHEAQYAyABEgJFk_D_BwE

At 137 cfm it would move the entire volume of upstairs or basement air every hour. That is 24 air changes per day. You could easily add a timer if you wish to cycle it for less air movement. 

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Ok I think I got ya. I can buy this and make a hole in my floor somewhere on the first floor and install it into the bsmt celing attached to rim joist and setup electrical and a timer if needed and just let it suck air from the main floor in to the bsmt? 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

That would do it. There should be sufficient air paths from basement back to upstairs to handle the return flow. 

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Thank u bud. I will order that fan asap now is there any particular place I should install it or any where is good like behind a couch or in the hallway.

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Behind the couch wouldn't be my first choice but even that would work.

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Ok so I'm gonna set it up on hallway wall or through the floor 

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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Behind the couch wouldn't be my first choice but even that would work.
> 
> Bud


Is it best to set it up in the hallway floor or ceiling hight? 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Personal choice for the most part. Moving air can be beneficial some times and uncomfortable at others. The main living area is already conditioned and controlled by your thermostat and activities. It is the basement that is benefiting from the exchange of air so almost anywhere will be fine. 

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Personal choice for the most part. Moving air can be beneficial some times and uncomfortable at others. The main living area is already conditioned and controlled by your thermostat and activities. It is the basement that is benefiting from the exchange of air so almost anywhere will be fine.
> 
> Bud


Thank u bud for ur help i should be getting the fan tomorrow I'm gonna set it up in the hallway on the side of wall and have it between the rim joists.

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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

So we just cut a hole in the floor. Insurance company might have something to say about that.
I would be looking to suck cool air from the basement floor thru a duct work in a code complaint method. No I do not no what that is. Fire stopping is the process of closing all leaks between floors to slow the travel of fire. That would not include just cut a hole in floor.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> So we just cut a hole in the floor. Insurance company might have something to say about that.
> I would be looking to suck cool air from the basement floor thru a duct work in a code complaint method. No I do not no what that is. Fire stopping is the process of closing all leaks between floors to slow the travel of fire. That would not include just cut a hole in floor.


Im going to run ductwork into bsmt not just cut a hole and Install the fan

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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

charles3526 said:


> Im going to run ductwork into bsmt not just cut a hole and Install the fan
> 
> Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk


Sorry I guess I missed that. You could run a booster fan is the duct somewhere in between.


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Most circulating fans I see offered are intended to exchange heating or cooling during those seasons, but all you need is a trickle of air flow, preferably from upstairs to downstairs. The fan that comes to my mind first would be a Radon fan because they are designed to run 24/7 for many years. Installed downstairs it could pull air from a vent anywhere you want upstairs and discharge it into the basement. This unit is rated at 137 cfm. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Fantech-...MI9ZaH_9yB1QIVRG5-Ch3oLwhHEAQYAyABEgJFk_D_BwE
> 
> At 137 cfm it would move the entire volume of upstairs or basement air every hour. That is 24 air changes per day. You could easily add a timer if you wish to cycle it for less air movement.
> 
> Bud


I got the fan is there any timer u suggest on adding to this fan? 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I haven't installed any, just advise they are an option, but in my trade we see them as bath fan timers when the fans are used for fresh air. Here is one, I think, but it doesn't provide a lot of description.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywel...gclid=CLm9hfmpi9UCFQ6taQodr1INdA&gclsrc=aw.ds

Most are marketed for exhausting to the outside to meet fresh air needs. In your application you are substituting the radon fan because of its longevity and you are venting between floors instead of to the outside.

Try this search. ventilation 24 hr timers exhaust fans for fresh air

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> I haven't installed any, just advise they are an option, but in my trade we see them as bath fan timers when the fans are used for fresh air. Here is one, I think, but it doesn't provide a lot of description.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywel...gclid=CLm9hfmpi9UCFQ6taQodr1INdA&gclsrc=aw.ds
> 
> Most are marketed for exhausting to the outside to meet fresh air needs. In your application you are substituting the radon fan because of its longevity and you are venting between floors instead of to the outside.
> ...


Thanks I'm gonna get to work on this project today I have this as a vent to install in my wall then go in bsmt with a 90 angle to the fan. Would this vent have enough openings to supply good air flow to and from the fan. Basically I don't want to have the fan working harder to pull air through the openings of the vent. 










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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Air flow should be fine and that fan is designed to operate with any air flow.

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Air flow should be fine and that fan is designed to operate with any air flow.
> 
> Bud


Thanks with the fan in the bsmt rim joist should I hood up a elbow to that and have the air redirected from flowing right to the floor or have it turn into the bsmt. Area?

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Been awhile so refresh my memory so I don't have to read the entire thread. When you say "with the fan in the bsmt rim joist" it sounds like you are planning to draw air from outside? Describe what your current plan is and what fan you selected?

Bud


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## charles3526 (Oct 15, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Been awhile so refresh my memory so I don't have to read the entire thread. When you say "with the fan in the bsmt rim joist" it sounds like you are planning to draw air from outside? Describe what your current plan is and what fan you selected?
> 
> Bud


Ok well it was a fan u recommend I think fb100 I'm going to draw air from first floor into bsmt and I wanted to know if I should just let it blow into the bsmt or aim it somewhere other then right down yo the floor? 

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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Good, you scared me. Blowing air anywhere into the basement serves your purpose. If the air would be uncomfortable blowing on someone then redirect it as needed.

Bud


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