# Repairing cracks from settling



## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

You don't necessarily need to "etch out" the crack If you do, pre-fill with setting compound and let dry prior to taping. If you use mesh tape, setting type compound is required for at least the first coat. Additional coats can be ready mix. I'd recommend a 10" knife, personally. It's what I use most often. An 8" will suffice, but a 10" will do a better job of covering. A 12" is a bit much for a DIY'er.....


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

*sinking screws*

i'm having a hard time putting screws in where the studs or "joists" in the cieling drywall. it is an old ceiling. you can see in the photos, the placement of some screws was easy while others didn't find a 2x4 so i removed them.




























i'm under the impression the first step is to remove the old tape from the seams. then put screws in since the nails from long-ago are not holding the drywall in place. what is the procedure? do i sink screws in next to the nails? and how do i find the joists? the stud-finder i have isn't giving me the exact location (or the screws don't always find the joists studs in ceiling). i've pushed the drywall up which pushes the old nails through the paint to do this and find it works. so, is this correct? 


just find the old nails and put screws in nearby?
Bang in the nails;
retape and "mud" the joints;
"mud" over the screws;
sand, prime and paint?
i bought a 10" mud blade and a mud box to help. i'll continue using fiber tape and joint compound with setting agent for first coat and a lightweight joint compound for 2nd/last coat of mud.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

oh, i forgot to mention, it is absolutely impossible for me to get to this area of the ceiling attic. that would be the easiest way to see what is up there above this section.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

*finished first photo*

here is photo of finished job (at least before ceiling texture is put in or possibly before the plywood ceiling is replaced):








but i still need help w/ other sections of this remodeling as described in this thread above.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

*yet, another question*

bjbatlanta,
you wrote, "pre-fill with setting compound and let dry prior to taping. If you use mesh tape, setting type compound is required for at least the first coat. Additional coats can be ready mix." which one of these has a "setting compound?" a person at home depot said the one on the right.








oh, the doggy door in the photo was downsized from an old junky X-Large one. i had to rip it out and redo the frame inside and seal around it again. then practiced my taping and mudding on several pieces of drywall left-over from a previous project. one can hardly tell the old junker dog door was ever there!


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## gdoucette (May 27, 2010)

rosco, setting-type comes in powder form. It sets through a chemical reaction with water, as opposed to the pre-mix compound which simply dries out. In your picture, you have two different pre-mixes. The bucket is all-pupose and can be used for the first coats if using paper tape. Works well if there are no big gaps or holes. The stuff in the green box looks like a lite premix compound which would be for the final finish coat, sands very easily and smoothly. If it comes ready to apply, its pre-mix. If it's powder that you have to mix with water, it setting-type. I wouldn't count on the people at Home Depot knowing anything except where to find things.

The setting-type will be called something like Sheetrock 45 or Sheetrock 90. The 45/90 indicates how long it takes to set (not necessarily dry) once the compound sets, you can start your next coat. This usually allows you get all of the required coats applied in one day. The premix compounds are highly subject to humidity, and if applied where humidity is high, they can take days to dry (trust me, I just finished my basement). 

Going back a couple posts, you asked about taking the tape off to put the screws in. There's no need to remove the old tape unless it is damaged and looks bad. Drive your screws through the existing tape. They should sink below the surface, and when you patch over them you'll never know the difference.

Sounds like you're having fun :thumbup:


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Correct, setting type is powder form. Both Lowes and HD carry USG "Easy Sand" setting compounds in 20,45, & 90 minute. Both types of compound you show are ready-mix. The green box is regular and the blue lid bucket is lightweight, meant for skimming. I don't use or recommend lightweight ready-mix as it doesn't et as hard and scratches easily. A lot of people use it though....


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

gdoucette said:


> rosco,... If it comes ready to apply, its pre-mix. If it's powder that you have to mix with water, it setting-type. I wouldn't count on the people at Home Depot knowing anything except where to find things.


darnit! they told me wrong again. i've done tons of tape/mud jobs in the four rooms where all this remodeling is taking place. i've used mostly the stuff in the bucket (finishing compound). the HD employee did say this would be the finishing stuff but that the box had setting compound and is used in the first coat, at least. 

what will be the end result? will all this taped/mudded area crack?


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## gdoucette (May 27, 2010)

Maybe, maybe not. Lots of people only use pre-mix. Others swear by setting type. If you are filling large gaps, a setting type like Durabond is the way to go, then cover with finish compound. Fact is, if your house shifts, its going to crack anyway. That being said, if your cracks are fine and your walls are well attached to the framing, you should be okay. My preference, if you're using mesh tape, would be to use a setting compound. Some will agree, some will say it doesn't matter.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

THX gdoucette! i feel a little better knowing i didn't wrongly do the tape/mud job 100% wrong. there is hope it won't crack.

now, back to how i shall proceed: 
i've pushed the drywall up which pushes the old nails through the paint to do this and find it works. so, is this correct? 


just find the old nails and put screws in nearby?
Bang in the nails;
retape and "mud" the joints;
"mud" over the screws;
sand, prime and paint?


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## gdoucette (May 27, 2010)

it seems to work for you. I would probably try to take the nails out, but I'm not sure how far out the heads are popping. If they are coming out enough to get your hammer claw or a pry bar under them, put a piece of wood under the pivot point to keep your tool from going through the drywall, and gently pull it out ... just because there is really no reason to leave them there once you've reinforced with screws.

You're on your way! Looking forward to seeing the finished product.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

Gdoucette,
i hope it will work for me. i've never done this before, excepting a little taping/mudding gaps in ceiling corners where i removed trim. 

most nails are not sticking out. the few that are only come out a fraction so as to lift the paint a little. this is maybe 2% of them though. the problem i'm having with some screws is i can not get them to go below the surface of the plywood or sheet rock (depending on the room).


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

*20 sets-up in five minutes???*



gdoucette said:


> rosco, setting-type comes in powder form. It sets through a chemical reaction with water, as opposed to the pre-mix compound which simply dries out. In your picture, you have two different pre-mixes. The bucket is all-pupose and can be used for the first coats if using paper tape. Works well if there are no big gaps or holes. The stuff in the green box looks like a lite premix compound which would be for the final finish coat, sands very easily and smoothly. If it comes ready to apply, its pre-mix. If it's powder that you have to mix with water, it setting-type. I wouldn't count on the people at Home Depot knowing anything except where to find things.
> 
> The setting-type will be called something like Sheetrock 45 or Sheetrock 90. The 45/90 indicates how long it takes to set (not necessarily dry) once the compound sets, you can start your next coat. This usually allows you get all of the required coats applied in one day. The premix compounds are highly subject to humidity, and if applied where humidity is high, they can take days to dry (trust me, I just finished my basement).
> 
> ...


i am using the 20 minute bag mix with the setting compound. i mix it in the little mud box with a 6" knife. but w/i 5-10 minutes of beginning to mix it sets-up rock hard and is still wet as you mentioned. 
either i'm in a warped time sector on planet 9 or i'm missing a trick. how do i keep it from setting up for 20 minutes? keep stirring while i apply the stuff? 
it seems i'd look a fool if i went back to the store where i bought it and argued the label of twenty minutes was wrong. 

THX! 
ps. i wish i had remembered what you wrote in the last paragraph before ripping down an old taping job.


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## Axecutioner-B (May 18, 2010)

I use a mix of "20 minute" & +3 I have a 2 gallon bucket that i mix it in, i use a small mixing bit in a drill & mix the 20 minute first, seperately. After the 20 minute is a nice consistency i add 2 or 3 big scoops of the +3, then mix that in with the 20 minute & mix it until it all mixes good together. At this point you have about 30 minutes to work with the amount of mud you just mixed.

Most people just mix the 20 minute in their pan with a 6" knife, i am too lazy for that  

If i added a tip it would be: take 2 medium/small sized scoops of 20 minute & throw it in your pan & mix it, then throw in 2 good sized scoops of +3 or whatever regular mud you are using, throw it in your pan too & mix the 2 together. Adding the +3 to your 20 minute will extend the time you have to work with the mud AND make it more workable while you're using it


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

is "+3" an emulsifier like dishwashing soap? Dawn liquid soap definitely loosens up the pre-mix mud but i wasn't sure if it's affect the "setting compound" in this mud. 

i've seen dish washing soap (dawn or ivory) added to mud when doing hand texture jobs. and used it myself. boy, that stuff is like grease lightening. or a hockey puck on ice. it has what i'd guess is called great "flowability" when put into motion.


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## Axecutioner-B (May 18, 2010)

+3 is lightweight joint compound. You could substitute "+3" for what ever joint compound you are using (i think you had green top in your picture). I have never tried soap in mud (although im not the least bit opposed to it, i just havent had a job big enough to try it yet)

Adding regular joint compound to your "hot mud" (aka 20 minute) will make the hot mud MUCH more workable & give you more time to work with it. I would mix the mud at about 60% joint compound to 40% hot mud(ish). This will give you a half hour or more to work with your pan before it gets too hard to work with. 

If you aren't in a big hurry to make the mud set then you really dont need to use hot mud. I use hot mud so i can get 2 or 3 coats & texture on in one day (i only do small jobs so far in my drywall career). If i am working in my own house then i can do a coat one day & the next coat the next day etc... at my leasure until it's done, in my own house i probably wouldnt use hot mud, unless i was in a big hurry. 

Normal joint compound (in my area +3 is popular) is much easier to work with & does a fine job. Just my .02


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

Axecutioner-B - 
Thanks. 
on this third set of jobs i need to sand the dried mud. there is so much of it we bought a sander w/ a little vacuum (ryobi for $30). can someone recommend another that has a better vacuum for small particulate dust? 
after sanding, i'll put another one to two coats of mud on and will try adding a little of the "lightweight all-purpose joint compound."


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Ridgid makes a compact shop vac for contractors. It is a 4 gallon capacity, 5 horse motor, and you can get bags for it. It's what I use almost exclusively. The bag catches 90 percent of the dust and the filter gets the rest. You don't have to clean the filter nearly as often. When you notice you're not getting enough suction (more dust not being sucked up) just change the bag.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

bjbatlanta said:


> Ridgid makes a compact shop vac for contractors. It is a 4 gallon capacity, 5 horse motor, and you can get bags for it. It's what I use almost exclusively. The bag catches 90 percent of the dust and the filter gets the rest. You don't have to clean the filter nearly as often. When you notice you're not getting enough suction (more dust not being sucked up) just change the bag.


right, we've several shop vac's w/ filters to catch fine/small "particlees." i'm looking for a sander with an attached vacuum w/ a proper filter and probably a collection hood. when using the sander on the ceiling i use both hands. we tried having the 'Missus' holding-up the shop vac, but the "particlees" were dispersed too greatly to catch them. this was in conjunction of using a sander with a vacuum collection. there is suction at the sides of the sander where the dust blows out but it is not effective. proper collection would probably involve some sort of housing around the entire unit to capture/collect the dust. 

speaking of dust collection on power tools, the MAC miter saw has a dust collection bag on it. it doesn't collect saw dust on the inside. plenty on the outside though. what is the purpose of these dust collection bags other than to get in the way? 

maybe it is being at 4,000 feet above sea level that disables these vacuum units. :whistling2:


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

*Rag with hot water is best*

i'm using a wet rag using hot water to sand the ceiling above much immovable furniture (it can be moved, but only down a set of stairs). 

the mud i'm sanding with this hot/wet rag is the 20 minute dry mix joint compound with the setting agent. 

i'll need to sand down some thick stuff but 95% of the sanding will be out of the way without sand paper or sander! or dust!


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

bjbatlanta said:


> Ridgid makes a compact shop vac for contractors. It is a 4 gallon capacity, 5 horse motor, and you can get bags for it. It's what I use almost exclusively. The bag catches 90 percent of the dust and the filter gets the rest. You don't have to clean the filter nearly as often. When you notice you're not getting enough suction (more dust not being sucked up) just change the bag.


fwiw - another vote for the Rigid with the bag inside. I finally got really fed up with not being able to clean up the work area too well - and I make a lot of mess (I'm NOT the best drywaller in the world). I picked up a Rigid 6 horse with drywall dust filter included - and added the dust bag as well. Even with the 3 layer filter and the fine dust bag, his unit could suck up a basketball. Bags were a bit pricey but less than replacing filter - the original filter and the vacuum can so far are still clean! so I'd say well worth it...


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

gdoucette said:


> If you are filling large gaps, a setting type like Durabond is the way to go, then cover with finish compound.


quite a while ago (when I bought my house) I added a patio door out to back deck. I replaced the drywall / insulation etc. on the whole wall where the door went in. Where I mudded the corners (new drywall meeting old) it cracked within a couple months (I used premix and mesh tape). I did these 2 corners again using a setting compound (sheetrock 90) and mesh tape - lasted until the winter - then another crack appeared (I think the seasonal expand / contract thing on that wall was whacking it). Guess I learn the hard way - maybe 3rd time's a charm - mesh tape w durabond this time, with sheetrock 90 over that - several years later and no cracks :thumbsup:. I suppose every situation is different, but just noting that in my case, the durabond seemed to make the difference in a trouble spot. Or maybe I just had enough practice by that time to get it right :laughing:


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

rtoni said:


> quite a while ago (when I bought my house) I added a patio door out to back deck. I replaced the drywall / insulation etc. on the whole wall where the door went in. Where I mudded the corners (new drywall meeting old) it cracked within a couple months (I used premix and mesh tape). I did these 2 corners again using a setting compound (sheetrock 90) and mesh tape - lasted until the winter - then another crack appeared (I think the seasonal expand / contract thing on that wall was whacking it). Guess I learn the hard way - maybe 3rd time's a charm - mesh tape w durabond this time, with sheetrock 90 over that - several years later and no cracks :thumbsup:. I suppose every situation is different, but just noting that in my case, the durabond seemed to make the difference in a trouble spot. Or maybe I just had enough practice by that time to get it right :laughing:


i thought the Sheetrock Lightweight-setting type joint compound had the durabond setting agent in it??? whatever it is i use, it must be available at home depot or Lowes. they are the only two stores in town that i know of who sell to those w/o a business license. i won't order these supplies on-line


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

rtoni said:


> fwiw - another vote for the Rigid with the bag inside. I finally got really fed up with not being able to clean up the work area too well - and I make a lot of mess (I'm NOT the best drywaller in the world). I picked up a Rigid 6 horse with drywall dust filter included - and added the dust bag as well. Even with the 3 layer filter and the fine dust bag, his unit could suck up a basketball. Bags were a bit pricey but less than replacing filter - the original filter and the vacuum can so far are still clean! so I'd say well worth it...


it isn't cleaning up the mess. my idea is to stop the dust before it settles throughout the house, clogs up the HVAC filter, etc. even if i were to tape off the doorways and shut off the HVAC system the dust would still get in the brick walls, cover nearby walls, etc. i wish to collect the dust while sanding at a very close proximity.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Probably the best collection system is the Porter Cable sander/vac combination. You can rent them at a rental store or some HD's have them in their rental dept. I've got a knock-off I use for sanding heavy textures and they do a good job. The sander itself is pretty heavy, so not conducive to long sanding sessions. Really, none of them will get ALL of the dust, no matter what they claim....


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

rosco said:


> i thought the Sheetrock Lightweight-setting type joint compound had the durabond setting agent in it??? whatever it is i use, it must be available at home depot or Lowes. they are the only two stores in town that i know of who sell to those w/o a business license. i won't order these supplies on-line


the stuff I used is Sheetrock 90 and Durabond 90 - 2 different dry products in 25 lb bags (also available in smaller packages / boxes if you have a small job) - HD and other h/w stores sell both here. I never used a ton of the durabond but the 25 lb bag is not much more $ than a couple of the small boxes and running out of anything is a pain, out at my location.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

the patching and tape/mud jobs are almost done. an employee at HD, over the phone, said they didn't carry anything like that. i don't remember anything like that but i'll look next time i'm there. if any of these crack, i'll use durabond to fix it. 

THX! 

about the sander with a vacuum - we are simply running the HVAC fan without using the AC to filter out the dust. i remove the HVAC filter after the dust has settled and turn the AC back on. i run a shop vac with a filter made for sheet rock dust, but it doesn't grab 25% of the dust being produced. i've given up on dusting. i've asked the wifey to not dust until all these sanding jobs are done. (i quite don't care about dust. it seems to make things more "lived-in" but she simply can not abide it).


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Tape a good furnace filter in front of the intake grill until done with the sanding, save the motor.....

Be safe, Gary


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

GBR in WA said:


> Tape a good furnace filter in front of the intake grill until done with the sanding, save the motor.....
> 
> Be safe, Gary


i'm not following. tape a piece of fiber mesh on the air intake? if so, it wouldn't work on this one i don't ... yeah, it might. that is a good idea:thumbsup:

here is a photo of one much like the one we have: Ryobi's Crappy hand-held sander. boy, i tell you. htis thing shoots dust all over the place. i'm not sure if it comes from under the sanding pad, above it, out of the vacuum holes or the sides of the thing. but in seconds dust is solid for about ten feet out. it is like i'm instantly "Pig Pen" on Charlie Brown with the cloud around me.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

That's the problem. An orbital sander is not meant for drywall. The dust is way too fine. Go to the HD web site. Type in "drywall tools" in the search bar. You can find several options for "dustless" sanders. Hyde has a hand sander and a pole sander which attach to a vac and are reasonably priced.


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## ws450r (Dec 29, 2009)

bjbatlanta said:


> That's the problem. An orbital sander is not meant for drywall. The dust is way too fine. Go to the HD web site. Type in "drywall tools" in the search bar. You can find several options for "dustless" sanders. Hyde has a hand sander and a pole sander which attach to a vac and are reasonably priced.


+1 on this! I had sheetrock dust all over the kitchen. Will never do it with an orbital sander again, especially in a finished house.


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## rosco (Dec 26, 2009)

yup. dust gets everywhere. the options are to enclose the area or cover everything. when the job is throughout the house the work is not done in sections, it becomes tiresome to enclose/cover everything. we opted to vacuum and dust later but gave it a good try at capturing it while sanding. we held up the wands of both a house vacuum and shop vac.


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