# 1400 sq/ft of basically uninsulated attic



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I'll get you started here: http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/biggest-loser-fiberglass-insulation-90438/

Gary


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

GBR in WA said:


> I'll get you started here: http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/biggest-loser-fiberglass-insulation-90438/
> 
> Gary


+1

No comparison.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Insulation installer just left and will be mailing a quote. I had requested a quote for foam, but wasn't here for the estimate. He is going to write up a quote for installing fiberglass and then putting foam over that. Not at all what I expected... when he calls me I'm going to ask for a "just foam" quote as well. 

And I was wrong, the joists are all 2x12. It appears that the entire attic was done in fiberglass at one point, but it was all ripped out. (major raccoon problem at one point.) There is also a fair amount of vermiculite around up there, but the bulk was taken out when the pink stuff was removed I think.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Is vermiculite still made? Was it any good?


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## gatorheel (Jul 12, 2011)

I don't want to overly alarm you, but you should assume that the vermiculite is contaminated with asbestos. It's not as bad as if you had high-friable asbestos pipe blankets, but since you don't have any insulation now you might want to consider having it completely cleaned up before you install new insulation. If most of it is already gone, I don't think it would be too expensive as it would just be a thorough HEPA vacuuming.

http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/verm.html

Matt


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## JeepNick (Oct 27, 2011)

I had cellulose blown into my 1200 sq. ft. attic for $350. The difference was immediately noticeable. I live in Phoenix AZ where we have 5 months of 100+ degree heat.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

I had cellulose blown in into my attic space last Nov. for a lot more money, But it was the best money I ever spent. Besides the comfort level, the saving on my heating bill was immediate and huge. We live in Central Ontario where we have 5 months of minus 100 degrees wind chill ( ok. ok, but it sure feels like it)


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Abestos doesn't bother me. It's only dangerous when you fuss with it and make dust or otherwise make the fibers inhale-able / airborne. If you leave it alone it will leave you alone. I appreciate the concern though.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm soooo confused...

I got the quote from the insulation company. I asked for a quote on foam. I got a quote for:

Removal of all current insulation (vermiculite and old, heavily damaged fiberglass batting) 
Foam air sealing of edges and other areas
Installation of R12 fiberglass batting
Blown in cellulose over the fiberglass batting to reach a computed total of R39

Not only do they want a fortune for it, but wouldn't the R12 batting compress to nothing under the weight of the blown in cellulose? I'm not planning to use them; didn't quote what I asked for (which annoys the heck out of me), didn't notice the nightmare of current wiring (which just points to lack of attention to detail,) and they are way too expensive anyway. But I'm still confused by what they quoted... any insight?


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

mnp13 said:


> Abestos doesn't bother me. It's only dangerous when you fuss with it and make dust or otherwise make the fibers inhale-able / airborne. If you leave it alone it will leave you alone. I appreciate the concern though.


Really????? I keep telling my wife smoking don't bother me either, but I know its killing slowly. So I guess your attic could be a dumping ground for all those asbestos reclaimers........and you wouldn't mind at all.

Mark


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Jackofall1 said:


> Really????? I keep telling my wife smoking don't bother me either, but I know its killing slowly. So I guess your attic could be a dumping ground for all those asbestos reclaimers........and you wouldn't mind at all.


Yes really. When you don't disturb it, it does not pulverize itself and leap into the air. :wink:

Asbestos is dangerous when you mess with it - pulling off asbestos wrapping, breaking asbestos shingles, etc. Just like lead paint - it's dangerous if you sand it or scrape it or eat the paint chips, not if it's just on your walls being left alone. 

My father is actually a trainer and inspector for OSHA, and has inspected buildings for asbestos abatement so I actually know a little about this issue. Yes, it is frequently torn out of buildings, but that is actually _not _necessary, it can also be covered and sealed. And the only reason that is done is so that people don't disturb it. Quite frankly, it's usually torn out because it's a public relations nightmare not because it _has_ to be. If it's deteriorating for some reason, that is a different issue because then it is actively coming apart, and that would make some of it airborne. 

Since I'm normally not up there playing in the vermiculite, I see no reason to remove it from my walls or attic. If I was crunching around up there all the time, it would be a different story.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

I am quite familiar with asbestos and asbestos abatement, but for someone to claim they want it in thier attic in this day and age is completely off the wall. Its one thing to have it an leave it alone, its quite another thing to want it when you don't have it.

Mark


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Jackofall1 said:


> I am quite familiar with asbestos and asbestos abatement, but for someone to claim they want it in thier attic in this day and age is completely off the wall. Its one thing to have it an leave it alone, its quite another thing to want it when you don't have it.


Want it when I don't have it? What are you talking about? 

I said that it's there, that I don't care that it's there, and it just being up there isn't exactly dangerous in and of itself. 

Not that I'm looking for more of it. I asked if it was still used for insulation and if it was good because I don't know much about it. Yes, I was aware that it _could _contain asbestos, I found out about that a few years ago when I bought the house. There are other mines that produce vermiculite, besides the one in Montana that had asbestos in it, so it's possible to still purchase vermiculite that is completely safe.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

mnp13 is correct.

As long as it is not disturbed and you know it is there, it poses no hazard if handled properly.

It is fantastic as an insulator too!


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Yes I went back and read the entire post, not sure why I thought that the OP was completely cool with adding asbestos, guess we all get confused occassionally, me more than others I guess.

Mark


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

No big deal. :thumbsup:

So - back to vermiculite (the safe, non-asbestos containing kind)

how good of an insulator is it compared to cellulose?


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Ok, the insulation guy just called me to see if I had received the quote, and I got some clarification.

The fiberglass is faced, so there is a vapor barrior, and then they blow in the cellulose on top of that. He specifically said that the cellulose would _not_ compress the fiberglass. 

Now, quite frankly, that would be a FAR cheaper way of insulating my attic - putting down a complete blanket of fiberglass, then putting cellulose on top of it. But again, I don't see how the weight of the cellulose wouldn't make the fiberglass as flat as a pancake.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

It would compress the f.g., reducing its R-value. If cellulose at R-38 = 2-8oz. water bottles per square foot……..http://www.greenfiber.com/step_one_-_calculate_your_need_how_to_install.html

Remember all cellulose is not equal: http://www.rateitgreen.com/company/...t-all-cellulose-insulations-are-created-equal
Shop around for another installer, unless he is talking only 2" of cellulose.


Gary


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Yeah, that's what I thought too. He is talking about a lot more than two inches of cellulose. The batting was to be R-19, then enough cellulose on top to get to R-48. (as I recall anyway, it's almost six and I'm on hour four of very sick dog, so I'm a little fuzzy on details.  )


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

tonight's attic adventure...

I went upstairs to start working and heard growling. Yes, growling. There was a squirrel IN THE ATTIC with me. And it was threatening me. In my own attic! It then ran over the edge of the eve and continued to growl at me. It sat there for about fifteen minutes, while we walked around, talking, shining lights on it. You see, for the last week and a half, it's been nice out, so it has been running around over my head on the roof. Tonight was 35 degrees and raining, so it didn't want to be out there.

Which brings me to the next question... 

I do not have soffit vents, and no way easy to cut them even if I did want them - well, that's not entirely true; I have one very large "soffit vent" in the back of the house. I just didn't happen to choose the location.

The roof joists go over the top of the brick, leaving a large gap. I was not planning to close up those gaps, but I really don't want squirrels in my new cellulose. Please don't tell me to find the hole that it is getting in through - I know exactly where it is... right next to the brand new board that cost me $500 to have installed. The little #%[email protected] chewed another hole within a week of getting the last one repaired. We're going to fill that area up with moth balls, and hopefully dispatch the furry tailed rat. To deter future guests, we're going to then douse the entire cavity with capstun - but we can't do that until all of the work in the attic is complete. 

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, when people talk about "air sealing" an attic, they are talking about the exchange of air between the house and the attic space, not the attic space and outside.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

mnp13 said:


> As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, when people talk about "air sealing" an attic, they are talking about the exchange of air between the house and the attic space, not the attic space and outside.


Correct.

Air sealing is designed to finish or repair the envelope layer which is the barrier between the interior/conditioned air and the exterior.

Attic to exterior is not part of the envelope layer in this application.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Ok, so besides the obvious reason of keeping the furry tailed devils out of my attic, I don't need to close those up? YAY! I was dreading that chore.

I also think I may have found out the source of the terrible icicles we get every year (besides the general lack of insulation!) - the cut off chimneys are just open to the attic, I'm quite sure they are great at sending warmer wall air up to the roof at that spot. I'm going to stuff a couple plastic bags down them and then top off with foam. There are also piles of bricks up there from where they broke the chimneys out, so I have some to use as replacements for the ruined ones on the house. Double YAY!


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Baby steps.

FYI, the squirrels won't like living in the attic with the cellulose at that point. It irritates their skin.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm considering getting a foam kit to do the air sealing in the attic instead of going through 100 cans of Great Stuff. (ok, not 100, but a lot!)

If I do that, I'll probably do the rim joists in the basement at the same time. At my last house, they just filled the joists completely - in some places it was 12 inches of solid foam. Of course I understand that's the best way (if not the most cost effective) but I'm wondering if I can just put an inch or two around the cavities and then stuff them full of batting? The basement is very very damp, so I can't seal anything off completely with plastic or anything like that.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

I found a local place that has the foam kits. More expensive than online but no shipping. We have two more wires to pull. Three lights to cut, then run the wires to the panel... Might be done this weekend!


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Ok and now we have the final insult from the attic. Worse than the wiring. Worse than the leaks. Worse than the raccoon poop. Worse than the spiders. I had a tick on me this morning, and it could only have come from up there. 

So, we have a Occupy Attic situation on our hands and after the air seal on Saturday will be the bombing on Sunday. I'm winning this battle, and there will be no prisoners. 

Insulation next weekend.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

mnp13 said:


> Ok and now we have the final insult from the attic. Worse than the wiring. Worse than the leaks. Worse than the raccoon poop. Worse than the spiders. I had a tick on me this morning, and it could only have come from up there.
> 
> So, we have a Occupy Attic situation on our hands and after the air seal on Saturday will be the bombing on Sunday. I'm winning this battle, and there will be no prisoners.
> 
> Insulation next weekend.


How big was the tick? Sure it wasn't jumped from one of the pups?

You certainly can have ticks up there as they were likely a hitch hiker on the raccoon. 

Keep an eye on it and make sure you don't get a red area around it. If so, get yourself checked for Lymes.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I called a few foam installers out of curiosity and asked them about the idea of foaming over fiberglass batts. All of them asked is this a prank call, non of them had heard of anyone doing it that way.
In your area it's suggested you have at least R-50 which is 12" of insulation.
Any insulation you add can not block off the soffit vents. The best way to prevent that if your going to use blown in or batts is to add foam baffles before the insulation in the lower area where the walls and roof line meet.
If you do blown in it's a DIY job just very dusty and takes two people.
Any home center will let you use there blower for free if you buy 10 bags of insulation. I attach a piece of 3" PVC pipe to the hose they give you with duct tape. That way I can get all the way across the attic while standing in the middle of the room on boards instead of trying to walk on the rafters in a cloud of dust and insulation.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Actually, they were going to pull out everything, then foam, then fiberglass, then blown in cellulose. My issue was the compression of the fiberglass by the weight of the cellulose - because if you mash the fiberglass down flat you pretty much negate the R-value. 

I don't have any soffit vents. My soffit area is over the side of the house. I'm not sure how to describe it clearly... 

When you go up into the attic, there are the ceiling joists for about 3/4 of the second floor. The joists are 2x4 in some areas and 2x6 in other areas. We have one room with the ceiling 18 inches higher than the rest of the second floor, the ceiling joists for that room are the 2x12 rafters that run across the attic parallel to the ceiling joists. So, there is about 2 1/2 feet of brick wall in the attic. On the top of the bricks are three 2x12 boards, and those boards are what the roof rafters attach to. The roof rafters go over the walls, and out into the soffit. The only vent in the soffit is the giant squirrel hole in the back of the house, and the gap in the front corner where we had hornets a few years ago. The attic has a square platform in the center of it, which is under the square, flat area of the roof where the coupla used to be. Most of the original coupla roof was used for covering the flat area, there is a piece of plywood over a section of it instead of the original boards, and there are two round vents in that part.

So, my point here is, with the exception of the taller ceiling area over the one room, I have over 2 feet of space over the ceiling joists for all of the rooms. I'll have to put something over the gaps in the roof rafters in the tall area, so they don't get plugged up, but the rest should be ok.

I'm using newspaper to block the holes in the rafters so that I have a "backing" for the foam to spray up against. I tested it with the cans, and it works well. The newspaper will also move as necessary so that the pressure of the foam won't hurt my walls - since it will be able to push the paper down and has space to expand into the attic. In the areas that are full of vermiculite, I'm going to foam over that to seal the top. We found a number of areas where the walls in the rooms below are open to the attic, effectively creating a "chimney" of warm air. 

Nope, the tick wasn't from the dogs or cats. They all get that aweful Advantage stuff. I have to work every night next week, so we're going to bomb the attic on Sunday and it will have four days to settle and air out until I'm able to get back up there.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

This picture was taken for the water damage, but you can see the spacing I was talking about in my last post.

The rafter board across the upper right of the picture goes into another board in this area (that backs up to the sole remaining in-the-wall chimney), but in the rest of the attic, they sit on top of the flat boards on top of the bricks. The roof rafters sit on top of the 2x12's.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If the plan as I read it is to use the little cans of foam, not going to happen unless you have lots of money and time.
There is 0 need for all those layers. One layer of R-50 fiberglass would be all you need. Or have a pro come in with the proper equipment and spray foam the whole thing.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Nope, DIY two part foam kit. Doing the entire 1400 sq feet in just foam is way out of my budget, whether I did it or paid someone to do it. 

We're air sealing with the foam, then blowing the cellulose over it.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Look at the gold insulation. You must have a Leprechaun in the attic.

:laughing:


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## Perry525 (Jan 10, 2010)

gatorheel said:


> I don't want to overly alarm you, but you should assume that the vermiculite is contaminated with asbestos. It's not as bad as if you had high-friable asbestos pipe blankets, but since you don't have any insulation now you might want to consider having it completely cleaned up before you install new insulation. If most of it is already gone, I don't think it would be too expensive as it would just be a thorough HEPA vacuuming.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/verm.html
> 
> Matt


Note: If there is asbestos? In your vermiculite then it will do no harm, if you leave it alone.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Yup, I'm not worried about the possibility of asbestos. We're leaving it alone for the most part, and we keep handling to a minimum.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Windows on Wash said:


> Look at the gold insulation. You must have a Leprechaun in the attic.
> 
> :laughing:


lol

Don't I wish!!!


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