# Tired of getting screwed...



## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Nows the time to take that HVAC course since you have the tools now get some theory to use them.


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

COLDIRON said:


> Nows the time to take that HVAC course since you have the tools now get some theory to use them.


Funny you say that. I stayed up all night looking. Nothing but online courses. This is more of a hands on type of learning. Penn Foster has an online course for $700. The course outline looks interesting. Too bad I cant learn it by the time I need this AC. I have been studying hvac/r quite a bit for the last couple months. Techs have a lot of knowledge to say the least. I would consider getting into the field, but I cant tell you how many techs are out of work here in Indianapolis. And after seeing the quality of work that some do, I can see why. This jackass didn't even know how to hook his gauges to a 410a system. He owns a company with 3 techs. He sat there 10 minutes on his hands and knees wondering why it wouldn't screw on to the service port.


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## fabrk8r (Feb 12, 2010)

Most community colleges offer HVAC courses.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

fabrk8r said:


> Most community colleges offer HVAC courses.


 
I currently am attending Houston Community College, HVAC. Four classes: Refrigeration Principles, Basics of Electricity, Recovery and EPA.

$980 for first two classes, the same for the second plus $845 in tools. 

I got me a grant so freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

michaeltee said:


> Funny you say that. I stayed up all night looking. Nothing but online courses. This is more of a hands on type of learning.


I think you missed the point.


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## cturman (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeltee said:


> Hey guys. I hired someone to install a 2-zone mini-split. I ended up paying $1100 for the job!! $850 for the labor and the guy said I used a full jug of r410a, although it will only hold 3.6 pounds (additional $250). I got screwed, and tired of getting screwed every time I need AC work done, whether it be in my cars or one of my rentals. The turd also only evacuated 1 line and didn't weigh in the charge. Needless to say, it don't work! I couldn't test it at the time because it was 25 degrees outside. Here is what I did. I went out and bought:
> 
> Stinger recovery machine
> 3cfm vacuum pump
> ...



WOW you went further than I did and I installed 2 systems at my house. You never mentioned what problem you are having. Not heating, not cooling? Is this a heatpump?

If the tech put in a whole tank of 410 you have a problem. Leak or something else. Tank holds 25lbs and that would kill your system because you will get liquid in suction line. 

Here is my advice get the manufactures install instruction. It will have some info you need. Get a pipe clamp thermocouple. You can't get a good temp reading without one. I've tried. 

Since you are spending money. I would recommend getting an N2 tank and regulator. Between your system evac and vaccum steps. Charge the system with 3-400psi of N2. This will identify any leaks. Just pressure it up and see if it will hold the pressure for a few hours.

For 410 remember to only charge liquid. Gas seperates into different compounds a bit. Don't startup system with no 410 in it. Pressure will be too low and this may cause damage.

If you weigh in your charge you don't need to run it all all during the charge. Just weigh in proper amount and start it up.


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

I think I missed the point of starting this thread. I thought I logged on to a Do It Yourself forum. I am searching for some assistance in completing a project that I am doing myself. I have spent much time researching and have a plan to finish this project. I just want to be sure my steps are right and complete. I didn't start the thread to be referred to getting an education.

So will anyone answer my questions in the 1st post?


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

DIY_HVAC said:


> WOW you went further than I did and I installed 2 systems at my house. You never mentioned what problem you are having. Not heating, not cooling? Is this a heatpump?
> 
> If the tech put in a whole tank of 410 you have a problem. Leak or something else. Tank holds 25lbs and that would kill your system because you will get liquid in suction line.
> 
> ...


There is no problem. I am just recovering, evacuating, and charging. Plain and simple. There is no leaks.

I just want to make sure each individual step is correct that I am performing. Are you saying that all my steps are correct except turning the compressor on while charging?

That is it... Thanks


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

michaeltee said:


> I didn't start the thread to be referred to getting an education.
> 
> So will anyone answer my questions in the 1st post?


but wouldn't that be educating you? Kind of a conundrum wouldn't you say? You don't want to be educated but to answer your questions would be educating you.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

I think it would be a violation of Federal law to evacuate/recover your own system without being certified to do so.

Andy.


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## Artco (Sep 23, 2010)

The system may be completely out of refrigerant (leak) at this time.
Why not call the guy back and tell him it is not working! Tell him to give you the rest of the refrigerant he did not use from the jug, by the way was that a 20 or 30 lb. Jug?
The mini splits usually come charged and you should only add refrigerant if you have an excessively long run of line set.


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## cturman (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeltee said:


> There is no problem. I am just recovering, evacuating, and charging. Plain and simple. There is no leaks.
> 
> I just want to make sure each individual step is correct that I am performing. Are you saying that all my steps are correct except turning the compressor on while charging?
> 
> That is it... Thanks



Yes. Just charge to proper weight and you are done. Make sure to account for line length. Most systems are charged to account for 15' of line and you have to add extra for each foot. I'm not sure what you mean by "purge" in your steps. This is usually done with N2

If you have all this nice equipment I suggest you just charge to proper superheat and subcooling. Pretty easy to do when it is hot. 

I recommend you view some youtube videos by Dr Zarcoff on AC repair.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Go get your EPA card before doing anything else. You could have 20+ mini splits installed for the price of the fine for not having one. Costs, about $75, include a book to study and the price of testing. The required procedures for recovery are covered in the study guide and test . I read the book twice before testing and passed universal on the first try so it's not hard but is required. 

You'll also need an adaptor for your hose since standard 1/4" low loss fittings won't fit on some,believe it's 5/16th. Most of them that I've seen only come with an access port on the suction side. The small line is part of the evap circuit and not a liquid line, hence no access port. Don't reuse the 410A since you have no idea if there's moisture or air in it. Weigh in the charge. Accounting for the second evap coil and line set should be in the instructions or you'll need to call the mfr and they'll run it through a program to say exactly how much refrigerant is needed. 410A added as liquid so don't wash all the oil out of the compressor while you're charging it. 

Sounds like you have a mess and probably no warranty.

BTW not holding below 500 microns could be a leak or just refrigerant or moisture boiling off. Take her down to 300 or so and make sure it stabilizes under 500.


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## hvactech126 (Nov 11, 2010)

> but I cant tell you how many techs are out of work here in Indianapolis


There are not that many that I know of, times are tough but that is what is kinda great about this industry, IF you are knowledgeable and do good work then you will always be in demand due to everyone needing heating and cooling. Look up Associated Builders and Contractors of America or IVY Tech and get some education and get your EPA license.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It's true this is a DIY site but I agree with the poster that suggested you get an HVAC course under your belt before tackling this project.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

You need to filter the refrigerant during recovery, in addition to purge the holes or You will contaminate the entire system. A lot simple important steps.


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## Hubcap626 (Feb 12, 2011)

JJboy said:


> You need to filter the refrigerant during recovery, in addition to purge the holes or You will contaminate the entire system. A lot simple important steps.


Don't filter the refrigerant. Recover and use new. Use a high pressure cylinder and only fill up to 80%.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't see where you have the guage adaptors......your original contractor didn't either 

Why wait until 70deg???????


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks for all your responses. I have a 50# recovery tank. The refrigerant went in properly and has only sat in the lines, so I am sure its uncontaminated. The system was filled with nitrogen to begin with. Its illegal to sell compressors filled with freon online unless you have a cert.

I will get that cert before I do anything. I didn't know it was illegal. I thought I can do it if its my own house. I am following rules. I am leaking no gas into the atmosphere so there should be no problems. I have all the tools I need including adapters. I have watched all the docs videos on youtube. Its the small steps that he doesn't explain that I need to verify.

If my steps are correct, then I guess all I need to know is when to stop recovery. Logic tells me to do so once I start to pull a vacuum, which I can read on my gauges.


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

Technow said:


> I don't see where you have the guage adaptors......your original contractor didn't either
> 
> Why wait until 70deg???????


Just want to get it done before it gets too hot.


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## hvactech126 (Nov 11, 2010)

you really think you can learn this profession by watching you tube?! you gotta be kidding me! what if your schrader sticks open.... then what?! you dont learn that from you tube! Its not just following the steps.... its knowing the steps and what can happen when they are not followed and what can happen if something goes wrong and what to do if something does go wrong. Get a pro or the correct education (4 years with in the field experience)..................enough said. BTW, check with Marion county (guessing since you said indy) see if the install doesn't need to be checked by county inspector and if a permit needed to be pulled for the install.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Anything under 0 should be fine



michaeltee said:


> Thanks for all your responses. I have a 50# recovery tank. The refrigerant went in properly and has only sat in the lines, so I am sure its uncontaminated. The system was filled with nitrogen to begin with. Its illegal to sell compressors filled with freon online unless you have a cert.
> 
> I will get that cert before I do anything. I didn't know it was illegal. I thought I can do it if its my own house. I am following rules. I am leaking no gas into the atmosphere so there should be no problems. I have all the tools I need including adapters. I have watched all the docs videos on youtube. Its the small steps that he doesn't explain that I need to verify.
> 
> If my steps are correct, then I guess all I need to know is when to stop recovery. Logic tells me to do so once I start to pull a vacuum, which I can read on my gauges.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

michaeltee said:


> Thanks for all your responses. I have a 50# recovery tank. The refrigerant went in properly and has only sat in the lines, so I am sure its uncontaminated. The system was filled with nitrogen to begin with. Its illegal to sell compressors filled with freon online unless you have a cert.
> 
> I will get that cert before I do anything. I didn't know it was illegal. I thought I can do it if its my own house. I am following rules. I am leaking no gas into the atmosphere so there should be no problems. I have all the tools I need including adapters. I have watched all the docs videos on youtube. Its the small steps that he doesn't explain that I need to verify.
> 
> If my steps are correct, then I guess all I need to know is when to stop recovery. Logic tells me to do so once I start to pull a vacuum, which I can read on my gauges.


Every time you hook up a hose to any machine or connection, always purge (let a bit of freon out, usually done by unscrewing the yellow hose or whichever hose is connecting to the new connection until it actually is misty freon and not just hissing and invisible so maybe two seconds) so as to not allow any air into the system. Now if the system was not properly vacuumed to begin with and has air in it and you recover the refrigerant and put it back into the system then you will have problems. Since we don't know that the original installer was any good as you are having problems, I'd toss the new/old and buy new and start from scratch. 

This can become quite expensive. 

Any questions and I'll be glad to assist, I understand what it's like to have shotty boneheads screw people around, hvac or not.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

If your recovery tank is not brand new, pull a vacuum on it first if you have no choice but to recover and re-use the old refrigerant. You can actually shoot some nitrogen into the tank, not much as in let's say a few psi as in 10, dump that after about 15-20 minutes (no need to be earth friendly with nitrogen, our atmosphere is mostly made up of it so no harm) and pull vacuum on the tank itself to make sure it is clean of any other possible (possibly burnt/contaminated) refrigerants that were once in it.


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## MikelTee (Mar 28, 2011)

Right on doc. I appreciate.

Tech... If I broke a shrader, I would recover the freon, and replace the shrader. I did not learn that on youtube. That is common sense. I didn't learn anything from youtube. This is not rocket science. I shadowed the install, and asked questions on every step, and went from there. The only thing he did wrong was not weigh in the charge. No permit is needed, as it is my home, and no one needs to inspect. If my neighbor sees me leaking freon, then I could get in trouble, but that is not going to happen. I just didn't wake up today and decide to install a AC system. I have been planning and studying for weeks now. The steps I outline are not copy pasted from a website. Those are my ideas which I wrote with my knowledge of the system.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

BEFORE you braze the unit in, remove the shraeder valves from the service ports. This would be done after the line set and/or compressor is empty and is done so as to not burn up the plastic rings on the shraeders. Happens all too often if left in, causing leaks.

Once the copper is cooled off enough, about ten to fifteen minutes air cool or you can wrap the connections in a drenching cold water wet rag once done to cool it off so then one to two minutes, and you are ready to pull a vacuum is when you re-install them.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

I take that back, you are not going to be brazing...or are you? 

If you have a leak you will be needing to.


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## hvactech126 (Nov 11, 2010)

stick you hand in the refrigerant and get burnt........its not something you just decide to do or plan for a few weeks....Best of luck! Ensure you have checked your county laws on HVAC permits that need pulled when installing or replacing equipment. The thing about Indiana is that the counties have the laws on the books and it is specific counties that require codes be followed and be enforced. 

No it is not rocket science! However, I think you taking the road of being uneducated in the field and basically saying that any moron can do this. I have seen the installs where morons have tried this field and seen the results as well. More than that I believe there are rules and regulations in place for a reason and should be followed. I'm not trying to short change your knowledge, but only want you to realize the potential for things to not go as planned and you need to be prepared. The only way to be prepared is to either have the experience under you belt from being in the field or have someone knowledgeable on site. Best to be on the side of safety. Refrigerant can harm you!

My thoughts only......... Just don't like you cutting the industry down and those of us who have invested years into becoming the best techs out there.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

michaeltee said:


> Right on doc. I appreciate.
> 
> Tech... If I broke a shrader, I would recover the freon, and replace the shrader. I did not learn that on youtube. That is common sense.


To touch up on what tech 126 is saying and your lack of experience, if you broke a shraeder there would be no freon to recover, it would blast out of the port via the broken shraeder quicker than you could blink an eye.

That would actually be commmon sense. 

Ask and research some more.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

there is a question that has been mentioned but there was no reply;

is there a warranty on the install?

Before you go and say no, I will tell you there is regardless what the guy said. You need to call the installer and have him fix his installation that you already paid for. The fact it isn't working and you really have no idea as to why speaks volumes. Do you have any idea what the status of the charge is currently? You seem to think charging the system is your problem yet you have done no investigation to determine the problem.



> . Its illegal to sell compressors filled with freon online unless you have a cert.


actually, with 410, no it isn't. anybody can legally go down and purchase 410. It is not controlled like 22, 12 and a few others. There are rules that apply to it but it does not require a cert to purchase it.



> Is section 608 technician certification required in order to purchase R-410A?
> HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance (such as R-410A or R-134a) are not covered under the refrigerant sales restriction. Therefore, section 608 technician certification is not required in order to purchase HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance. It remains illegal to knowingly vent HFC substitutes during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of appliances.


and then, on top of that:



> What does the sales restriction cover?
> 
> This sales restriction covers all CFC and HCFC refrigerants contained in bulk containers (such as cylinders, cans or drums). Refrigerant blends containing HCFCs (such as FRIGC FR-12, Free Zone, Hot Shot® or R-414B, GHG-X4 or R-414A, Freeze 12) are also covered under this sales restriction.
> 
> This sales restriction does not cover refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment or components containing an ozone-depleting refrigerant (such as components of residential split systems containing HCFC-22, also called R-22). Nor does the restriction cover the retail sale of air-conditioning and refrigeration appliances containing CFC or HCFC refrigerants (such as window air conditioners).


so, per the EPA, you could even purchase a mini-split charged with_ R22_ without a cert.

then, on top of that, you state the unit is:



> This is a 2 zone LG mini split heat pump with inverter technology by the way


.yet you couldn't test it because:



> I couldn't test it at the time because it was 25 degrees outside.


 You do realize what a heat pump is for, right?

and how did the guy supposedly dump 25 or 30 pounds of refrigerant into the system? and especially without it running?

this entire situation makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. It sounds simply like you are trying to get an online training session in how to be an HVAC tech.

and who in their right mind would pay $1100 for an install and simply write it off and go and spend another $1100 on equipment to fix that $1100 screw up?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> Yes there is a warranty. If any parts go bad, I will call him and do the warranty work. Since I researched the product, I don't see a problem happening so the warranty is irrelevant. I really don't want the crook anywhere near my system.


well, it doesn't work so call him and get it fixed... for free.






> I do know why it doesn't work. Did you not read my post? The charge wasn't weighed in. All that blabering for nothing. It was right there in front of you. I have done my homework.


as I said, you have done no investigation as to why it doesn't work. Just because he didn't weigh in the refrigerant does not mean that is the reason. In fact, that proves exactly my point; you believe it is a charge problem simply because it wasn't weighed in. No other reason to believe that other than "he didn't weigh the refrigerant". 





> NO YOU CANNOT BUY R410A WITHOUT A CERT!!!!


Yes, you can. The quote I provided is from the EPA. They are the folks that require certs for this and if they say you do not have to have a cert to legally purchase, then you don't. And speaking of; how did you get yours if you don't have a cert? If a cert is required, your friend that bought it for you or sold it to you broke the law.









> I could test it. I turned it on and no cool air came out. At the time of the install, it put out heat. He said we couldnt test the AC til 70 out and then he would "tune" it in.
> 
> 
> You do realize what a heat pump is for, right?
> ...


gee, maybe it out out heat because it was 25º outside and it went into heat mode.

and how did the guy supposedly dump 25 or 30 pounds of refrigerant into the system? and especially without it running?



> He thought I wouldn't know any better. He ripped me off. Just like the other 2 techs did in my past.


and yet you claimed you stood there and watched all of this. 




> It makes perfect sense. Your blabbering makes no sense.


a person that spends $2200 to do a $1100 job makes no sense. A person that does not hold a tech they paid $1100 to providing a service doesn't make sense.

and who in their right mind would pay $1100 for an install and simply write it off and go and spend another $1100 on equipment to fix that $1100 screw up?



> Because I am sick of being ripped off by the hvac tech crooks!!! I will do the EASY work myself. With or without your help.
> 
> I have money to burn. $1100 in tools will motivate me to learn something new. Which I am in the process of.


then go and take classes so you can actually learn how to do this and then legally be able to do it. What you are doing now is risking a many thousand dollar fine and you still cannot purchase r22 for any of the systems (rental units maybe) that would need it.


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## cturman (Jun 7, 2010)

hvactech126 said:


> you really think you can learn this profession by watching you tube?! you gotta be kidding me! what if your schrader sticks open.... then what?! you dont learn that from you tube! Its not just following the steps.... its knowing the steps and what can happen when they are not followed and what can happen if something goes wrong and what to do if something does go wrong. Get a pro or the correct education (4 years with in the field experience)..................enough said. BTW, check with Marion county (guessing since you said indy) see if the install doesn't need to be checked by county inspector and if a permit needed to be pulled for the install.



I think you missed the point. The original poster paid a pro and it didn't work out. There are 1000's of what if's and none of them happened to me.

I never said you could learn HVAC by watching youtube. I learned enough by watching youtube and reading to do an install. Troubleshooting is much harder. My brazing isn't that pretty but it works. 

I applaud someone who is trying this DIY. It is a lot of work. My 2nd system took about 4 hours for myself and a friend to do the AH in the attic. Maybe 4 more hours of sealing with mastic. Outside replaced the pad with poured concrete. Took most of a a day including picking up 5 bags of quickcrete in a Chevy Geo. Then braze lines, pressure check, triple evacuate and charge. 

My point is I make $60 per hour at work an this took ~25 hours. I didn't save much money but I know how the job was done and I'm happy with it. My 1st system was probably more like 60 hours.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Please remember the forum rules; Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on DIYChatroom.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.

Thank you,

Gary


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