# Another shed question



## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

My shed is 99% done at this point but I am not sure about how they supported the middle in the front and back. The actual middle is on blocks like the 4 corners are. They just put a piece of 2x4 there and I don't even think its treated wood. The guy is coming back in the morning to finish off the door since he didn't have a certain size drill bit with him so I am having my dad ask him tomorrow since I will be working like always. Pictures at bottom. 

Also the trim pieces are just the bare wood, I think this is normal and I will just paint them. Is there something better I can do up there? Last picture.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

OH boy! Were is the Simpson brackets to hold the posts to the shed a good swift kick and that shed is coming down!


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I see nothing there that's right.
The piece under the doors threshold sticks out past it, sure way to have water get in under the threshold and rot out the subflooring.
The foundation is not even close to being right.
There's no center support to stop the center of the building from sagging and throwing off the door.
Are those 2X4's for floor joist?
If one of my guys had built something like that for one of my customers he would be fired.
Is there any J moulding around those doors?

Get someone to wrap the trim with coil stock is you want it to be maintaince free.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I think the picture makes it look worse than it really is. The wood going all the way across the bottom is a 4x6 treated and there are 3 of them supporting the shed. They run on top of concrete blocks everywhere except the the front and back middle which is what I do not like at all and am going to make him fix with concrete blocks tomorrow before I pay him. As for that wood across the bottom of the door I figured that's there to attach a ramp to which I will be doing ASAP. What's wrong with the foundation? It's pretty solid and no wood is touching the ground


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also the shed is supported in the very center by blocks like the 4 corners. I just didn't take a picture of that. I also am pretty sure that board under the door is flush with the walls. I am not home now but it didn't catch my eye when I was looking at it yesterday. It looks like its not flush in the picture so I see why you think that.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here's some pics I took while they were building. 

I saw the 2x4 in the middle but assumed they would fix it and just didn't have enough blocks. It's even off center a little which is why I thought they planned on fixing it. Of course now that they are pretty much done and they still haven't put blocks there I am a little questionable as to paying them the rest of the money. Am I being fair if I refuse to pay until they support the front and back better?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sorry to keep adding on to this but what is this coil stock you speak of? I am also going to add some better pics of the shed. 


































Why did the pictures get greeted out like that?


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

That ain't safe. A good bump on the side will topple that whole thing over. I'd hold onto your money and maybe talk to a lawyer.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

He's going to fix the 2 places where he used the 2x4s. I bought some blocks just for that today. I checked everything out really good today and everything else looks great to me. I took a 36" level all over the floor and windows and just everywhere and it's all spot on level. Once he fixes those spots I think all will be good. Am I missing something?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Was there footing pored under those blocks?
Where the blocks mortered in place?
On the low sides of the grade those should have been a double row of blocks, sitting on pored footings all morted together to keep it from tipping. 
All the blocks should have been in placed with footings under them and built up so they were all level with each other before the decking went on.
That low grade side should have been solid blocks not hollow.
It's one thing to have a nice level site to build on, then you could get away with just setting the blocks on some crushed stone, but when you have to stack blocks that high somethings got to be done to keep them from tipping.
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/firm-foundation-backyard-shed.aspx


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The low side is doubled up on bricks. Atleast on the middle and back corner, one is just buried a little so you can't see them. They are not mortared but I am going to anchor the shed to the ground. There are no footings poured which is why I'm going to wait a while to anchor it so it can settle. The ground is soft on top but solid a couple inches down and since it is on such an unlevel area water is a non issue since I have never seen any standing water in my back yard even after a hurricane and a tornado passed through the area.

Edit. The low side blocks are solid blocks. There are only a couple hollows being used


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

If there aren't proper footings under those blocks, those columns will settle and the whole thing will eventually fall over. I don't know how much you need to worry about frost heaves in Va., but just rain erosion down that slope would be enough to do it. You need some sort of cross-bracing as well for columns that high. If they are just stacked blocks they are worse than worthless.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I hope your saying brick but you really meant blocks. Bricks never should have been used anyplace in the piers on this one.
It would have been best to dig out until you got to that solid compactable soil. To much organic materail under the blocks is going to compress as it rots and cause settling.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thunder Chicken said:


> If there aren't proper footings under those blocks, those columns will settle and the whole thing will eventually fall over. I don't know how much you need to worry about frost heaves in Va., but just rain erosion down that slope would be enough to do it. You need some sort of cross-bracing as well for columns that high. If they are just stacked blocks they are worse than worthless.


What would you do to fix what's done if its that bad?


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

nikeman said:


> What would you do to fix what's done if its that bad?


It would need to be jacked up to have proper footings poured. You need to have some sort of cross-bracing for those taller columns in order to keep the whole thing from toppling over. A system of pressure-treated beams and columns with crossbracing fastened to the footings would work. Poured concrete columns with rebar might work but I am less familiar with that. As has been said before, if the ground was flat there wouldn't be a problem as the shed couldn't fall over, but built as it is on the side of a hill, it isn't safe.

It's much easier to do beforehand, but it can be done as-is (but it is a PITA, let me tell you). Your shed looks pretty small so maybe it can be moved more easily. I'm fixing structural problems on a 10' by 20' outbuilding with an attic, not fun at all.

I'd try to keep your crew on the hook for this if you can, but I'd have someone else take a look at the work too. If there is no written arrangement, good luck to you.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also, it looks like he dug the top layer of dirt off before he placed the blocks on the the ground, so from what I can tell he did move the soft dirt away before hand. All the bottom layer blocks are buried at least half way which I am 99% sure would be enough to get to the solid ground especially considering before they came out I cleared away all the sticks, leaves, and a lot of the really spongy soil. I couldn't get it all because of all the little roots and stuff but I got it close to the solid dirt before hand. I am pretty confident in this guys ability and if in a few years I do notice the shed leaning or anything I will get it jacked up and fixed. 

Just the fact that everything is so level increases my confidence level since in my mind that's way up on the list of most important aspects of building anything..

Live and learn right?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thunder Chicken said:


> It would need to be jacked up to have proper footings poured. You need to have some sort of cross-bracing for those taller columns in order to keep the whole thing from toppling over. A system of pressure-treated beams and columns with crossbracing fastened to the footings would work. Poured concrete columns with rebar might work but I am less familiar with that. As has been said before, if the ground was flat there wouldn't be a problem as the shed couldn't fall over, but built as it is on the side of a hill, it isn't safe.
> 
> It's much easier to do beforehand, but it can be done as-is (but it is a PITA, let me tell you). Your shed looks pretty small so maybe it can be moved more easily. I'm fixing structural problems on a 10' by 20' outbuilding with an attic, not fun at all.
> 
> I'd try to keep your crew on the hook for this if you can, but I'd have someone else take a look at the work too. If there is no written arrangement, good luck to you.



We replied at the same time, lol.. The highest side (the back corner) is 5 blocks high, which is pretty high but I don't think the ground is as unlevel as you are thinking. Its hard to explain but the yard runs down straight to the back fence in some places and in others its more toward the middle of the yard and then back to the fence, if that makes any since.. I will keep an eye on it and if I notice signs of leaning I will address it with another contractor and get it fixed right. Like I said above, live and learn is my motto.. Can change whats been done but I must admit that I like what I see (other than the sticks in the middle!! lol)


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

nikeman said:


> We replied at the same time, lol.. The highest side (the back corner) is 5 blocks high, which is pretty high but I don't think the ground is as unlevel as you are thinking. Its hard to explain but the yard runs down straight to the back fence in some places and in others its more toward the middle of the yard and then back to the fence, if that makes any since.. I will keep an eye on it and if I notice signs of leaning I will address it with another contractor and get it fixed right. Like I said above, live and learn is my motto.. Can change whats been done but I must admit that I like what I see (other than the sticks in the middle!! lol)


My concern is that even a small lean can cause all of those columns to topple over, there is no bracing system. If you are inside that thing and hit a wall with a lawnmower or such, the whole thing may take a tumble (with you in it). You may not notice the lean until you take that tumble. It needs to get fixed.


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## House Engineer (Feb 23, 2012)

The shims that support the support beams appear to be eccentrically loading the concrete block piers. 

The shims should be centered on the pier to avoid creating uneven soil bearing stresses under the block that can result in overturning the pier.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

Sorry, but there's a slang term for this sort of work. It's called a "hack job." Almost everything about it is wrong. I wouldn't pay a dime until it's taken down and done right.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

That is a good point about the lawn mower thing. I am thinking about building some sort of roof coming off the side of my shed on the high side and parking my lawn mower there(when I get one) just because I was thinking how much space it would take up. What if I stacked some blocks beside the tall columns and had them mortared and such? That seems like an easy and cheap fix to me. How hard is it to mortar? I am tired of dealing with the guy mainly because he is so hard to get in touch with so it's something I could do my self in a couple weeks. 

What would I need to jack up a corner safely?


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

nikeman said:


> That is a good point about the lawn mower thing. I am thinking about building some sort of roof coming off the side of my shed on the high side and parking my lawn mower there(when I get one) just because I was thinking how much space it would take up. What if I stacked some blocks beside the tall columns and had them mortared and such? That seems like an easy and cheap fix to me. How hard is it to mortar? I am tired of dealing with the guy mainly because he is so hard to get in touch with so it's something I could do my self in a couple weeks.
> 
> What would I need to jack up a corner safely?


You've been told how to fix this mess the right way and yet you don't want to listen and do it the cheap....easy....wrong way. Just buy a few boxes of bandaids or duct tape....


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

3 Guys Carpintree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUcIeiaIQrs&feature=player_embedded


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

I would get some experienced help on this to fix the situation. You may actually find it cheaper and easier to tear the thing down and have the whole thing redone properly by a licensed contractor. It isn't safe and it will be nothing but headaches for you otherwise.

I am not a contractor, but I've learned that investing for good work from the get-go is always cheaper than getting the low bid clowns to mangle things up, THEN having to pay to get that mess untangled and THEN paying to get the good work done. The up front costs might seem pricey, but when you see the final product and it is solid and done right, the price for peace of mind is well worth it.

Check licenses, see examples of their previous work, educate yourself about what a good job looks like. Be safe. Live and learn.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

This guy is a licensed and insured contractor. It's not that I'm not listening it's that I spent all my money on this shed and can not afford to fork anymore into it.

I also saw an addition he did to a house on my street and it looked good.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

If it was me, I would replace all of the concrete block with 8" sonotube and get it 3' into the ground. Then I would add treated 4x4 posts to make up the difference between the top of the tube and the joist. Attach the top of the post to the floor jousts with a post cap base. I would just brace each corner, remove the block (which doesn't seem attached to the joists) and pour a tube. Use a proper galvanized or composite fitting to attach the post to the top of the sonotube. This prevents having an area where water can collect between the wood and the concrete.

Most of the construction looks reasonable, but they really skimped out on the foundation, especially for a structure on such a steep slope. If there is no concrete under the block and they aren't mortared in place, the back blocks will settle into the ground and the whole thing could go down the hill.

I would put a tube at each corner, one under the door, and one in the back middle. Before I do that, I would make sure that there is a solid joist structure underneath. At this point, you can always sister on some additional members if you think it is light. Can you post a picture of the underside framing?

None of this would be expensive and you could do if over time. I would start with the back of the structure and go from there.

*LMHmedchem*


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

LMHmedchem said:


> If it was me, I would replace all of the concrete block with 8" sonotube and get it 4' into the ground. I would just brace each corner, remove the block (which doesn't seem attached to the joists) and pour a tube. Use a proper galvanized or composite fitting to attach the floor joists to the top of the sonotube. This prevents having an area where water can collect between the wood and the concrete. In your case, you can put the fitting on before you poor the concrete and fill the tube up to the level of the fitting. Most of the construction looks reasonable, but they really skimped out on the foundation, especially for a structure on such a steep slope. If there is no concrete under the block and they aren't mortared in place, the back blocks will settle into the ground and the whole thing could go down the hill.
> 
> I would put a tube at each corner, one under the door, and one in the back middle. Before I do that, I would make sure that there is a solid joist structure underneath. At this point, you can always sister on some additional members if you think it is light. Can you post a picture of the underside framing?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. The framing and everything is pretty solid and as I have said, everything is spot on level. The high stacks of blocks are my only concern at this point so maybe I can do what you suggested to that entire side and then do the rest as I find time and money. The big question I have is how would I lift each corner while I remove the blocks and do what you suggested? Only thing I have is a decent car jack but it would sink in the dirt.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Or, what if I put a tube right beside the stacks? That way I wouldn't have to lift anything. Would that be to much of a band aide? I'm going to put up some lattice to block off under the shed since we have a lot of animals around here that like to nest under sheds.

Edit: if I put sonotube on 2 sides of the tall stacks(downhill sides) and connect the skids to the tubes that would make things pretty solid and stable right? I'd put one where those stock are sticking up. For now anyway. And I would attach each one to the 4x6 skid.


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## moneymgmt (Apr 30, 2007)

I actually like the shed, I think its fine by itself, just don't ask me to ever step foot inside as the support below it is for the birds. Try stacking dominoes end-on-end; the first one is easy, maybe even the second. By the time you get more than a couple high the height is longer than the supporting base and you have wavering side to side. You get high enough and it will topple over. Now try doing the same thing on dirt, with no solid foundation below, can you get even 2 stacked? Same principle.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

What does the contract say? Do you have a contract? Did you pay him yet?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

No contract. I paid half so far do I still owe him $600. He got high praises from a couple other people but it is truly a pita to get ahold of him. He was supposed to finish up saturday but didn't show (I was working) so I assumed he was coming yesterday. 9:00 came around and no word yet do I called and apparently he was going to come this morning but didn't think it was important to fill me in. Last I heard he hasn't been there yet today(I'm working again). I just left a note for him since having him answer the phone is like winning the lottery. Not says to check and fix back corner stack of blocks and replace 2x4s with blocks. I left plenty of blocks for him beside the shed so I shall see when I get home. You would think being that I owe this guy money he would make himself a little more reachable but I guess he doesn't need the money. I think I am within my rights to not pay him anymore if he never comes to finish the job.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry about the delay. The substructure framing is designed to transfer the load to specific locations. This is where the foundation should give support. You really should have this supported at the corners and not next to the corner. Putting a post next to the corner and not on it will transfer additional load to one side of the framing instead of balancing it evenly.

It will not be hard to brace and remove the current footings (that is part of the problem). You would brace with 2x6 that are notched in the center of one end. You would drive two of there into the ground on each side of the area where you are bracing. These are usually put in at a 30 degree angle, not straight up and down. You would need to secure the end of the board to the ground so it doesn't kick out. One way to do this is to drive a piece of strapping into the ground next to the board and screw it in. There are other ways to brace. You could just pile up some blocks about two feet on either side of the post you are replacing, but the 2x6 method is more flexible and tends to get in the way less since the support is out away from the work area. If you do the tallest post first, you can just cut the 2x6 down for the next area.

If you still have money left over that you haven't paid, I would write him a letter saying that you want the blocks replaced with sonotube and cross braced 4x4, which is the proper support for a deck. You need to think of the bottom of the shed as a deck since it is on a steep grade. Let him know that if he will not do this, you will use the rest of the money to pay another contractor to do that. The shed is not safe in its present condition, so you are well within your rights to do this. You are likely to have "the foolish man built his house upon the sand" as soon as you have a couple of good rain storms.

Tell other contractors what you want done and that you have a specific amount of budget to pay for it. You will probably find someone who will take the job. I think you could do it yourself as well. If you want to do that, we should draw up a good plan so you are sure of what you are doing and that you will get the desired result. The front of the shed probably doesn't need sonotubes, but at least there should be some concrete pored under the block and the block should be mortared in place. I mean really, framing up a 2'x2'x3" pad probably would have done it and how hard is that to get done? At least if you get the back shored up properly the thing isn't going to go sledding down the hill and you can work on the front as you go. Also, I would get two coats of fence post preservative on any untreated wood that is near the ground. I like to put it on the treated wood as well, especially where there are exposed cuts, nail, or drill holes.

If you can post the measurements, including the height of all of the posts and such, we can post a sketch of what the support should look like.

*LMHmedchem*


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## pesos (Nov 6, 2011)

nikeman said:


> No contract. I paid half so far do I still owe him $600. He got high praises from a couple other people but it is truly a pita to get ahold of him.


Not all praises are equal. I would question what this contractor really knows. I feel bad you are in this situation. We call them "pickup truck wannabees". This is not even close to right. DO NOT PAY HIM. 



nikeman said:


> View attachment 48125


This pic clearly concerns me. It is not even close to trying to fix it. House of cards, no more. You really need to consider a "do over". I know it is expensive, but, I would not risk safety to save some $$. The shed may be fine, but, it has nothing to support it correctly. I presume no permits required for sheds in your area?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I never figured out the permit thing but no one ever told me I needed one. I know it depends on the size but that's all I learned about it. The pictures make it look worse than it really is also.

What exactly do you want me to measure? I'm going to get it straightened out one way or another. I never realized how cheap a bag of concrete mix was.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

nikeman said:


> What exactly do you want me to measure?


Measure the basic dimensions, width, height to the roof line, and depth. Then go to the back and measure the height off of the ground at each post and label them from left to right. Make the height measurements from the ground to where the support blocks touch the 4x4s running underneath. It would also help to know the width of the board running across the front under the door. The back of the structure is the main thing, so just do the measurements there. That will be enough to make a diagram.

*LMHmedchem*


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## pesos (Nov 6, 2011)

nikeman said:


> I never figured out the permit thing but no one ever told me I needed one. I know it depends on the size but that's all I learned about it. The pictures make it look worse than it really is also.
> 
> What exactly do you want me to measure? I'm going to get it straightened out one way or another. I never realized how cheap a bag of concrete mix was.


The permit is depending on size, so, maybe in your state it would not matter. 

The pictures do not make it worse, it already is, and not good. 

You can save the shed as others have posted, but, it must be supported correctly, and it is more difficult when it is already built. Yes, I agree, some footings, or sonar tubes up front, and this would be a lot easier to deal with. Follow the advice here, and know, it is trying to help a bad situation get better.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

Whatever you do, be safe. If you start working on the footings and the thing shifts, drop everything and run away. It might be worth finding someone familiar with jacking and supporting structures to help you keep safe.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

Thunder Chicken said:


> Whatever you do, be safe. If you start working on the footings and the thing shifts, drop everything and run away. It might be worth finding someone familiar with jacking and supporting structures to help you keep safe.


This is excellent and important advice. I would also advise that even if you can't find someone who has done this kind of thing before you should still find someone to help that can be another body, set of hands, and set of eyes. This is not an awfully difficult job, but I really wouldn't try it by myself. Even if you could do it, it would be a major pain in the a**. Besides, you need someone to hold your coffee for you while you dig the hole, wait, I meant someone to dig the hole while you hold the coffee and supervise.

*LMHmedchem*


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Foundation, Foundation, Foundation, that should be the only fix here looks like it's a decant build job. Buy sono tubes and concrete support one corner at a time and replace the blocks. Make sure you dig deep enough to get below the frost line with the tubes and make sure the point where you connect the tubes to the structure you use the proper connectors.

Pay him , no contract, correct it yourself or have someone else with construction knowledge do it. 

You can dig that out just take your time and angle it if you have to just make sure when you set the sonos their straight and level and good backfill.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

For a shed this size there has sure been a lot of advice. Go to a place where they build portable buildings and see how they have the runners under them. If I am not mistaken you said the man wasn't through yet, ask him what he plans to do with the rest of it then go from there. My 12X16 has two large runners under it sitting on blocks, it has been there for 10 years now and it still is just like it was the day they put it there. I didn't have this much trouble when I raised a whole house and replaced the entire floor, sills and foundation.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks again. I will just put his name on here since I'm pretty sure he's bringing jacks and stuff this weekend to help me fix this. Joecaption came and checked it out and he even said its not as bad as it appears to be in the pictures. I believe he was even one who suggested tearing it down and starting over when he looked at the images. 

I am still confused about how I'm going to be able to get the sonotube or 4x4s in place. It's got to be buried a good 3 feet at least so it has to be a fairly long beam.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

nikeman said:


> Thanks again. I will just put his name on here since I'm pretty sure he's bringing jacks and stuff this weekend to help me fix this. Joecaption came and checked it out and he even said its not as bad as it appears to be in the pictures. I believe he was even one who suggested tearing it down and starting over when he looked at the images.
> 
> I am still confused about how I'm going to be able to get the sonotube or 4x4s in place. It's got to be buried a good 3 feet at least so it has to be a fairly long beam.


Just listen to Joe, he knows what he is doing.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

jiju1943 said:


> My 12X16 has two large runners under it sitting on blocks, it has been there for 10 years now and it still is just like it was the day they put it there.


I think that's fine for a shed sitting on level ground so you are only one block high. I'm sure that is what the contractor was thinking when the planed this and probably didn't think there would be an issue in going up a few blocks on the back. When you start to stack 4 blocks on dirt, on a steep grade, and then shim with unsecured wood blocks, I think the builder has left the path of wisdom. Even for blocks on the level I would probably poor a little pad to keep them from sinking over time. I also like landscape fabric and gravel under the shed but that could be overkill as well.



nikeman said:


> I am still confused about how I'm going to be able to get the sonotube or 4x4s in place. It's got to be buried a good 3 feet at least so it has to be a fairly long beam.


It is certainly not going to be as easy to do as it was before the shed was there, but retrofitting of decks and such is commonly done. Judging from the picture, the tallest post will be between 3 and 4 feet. You could use a taller sonotube and run it up to the 4x4 support rail, but the tube should be deeper in the ground than the height above ground and when I do a tall tube, I usually create a 2x2 concrete box at the bottom so that the structure has a wider base. You would have to go down 4-5' to do that and it seems easier to use a wood post like a deck. You're not going to be storing a tank or armored personal carrier in this thing, so you just need a foundation that isn't going to run away somewhere at the first sign of trouble.

Whoever is coming to help will have their own methods. Some might argue that the best thing would be a L-shaped footer made from mortared block and a pad, but as a general rule, masonry is harder than framing and much harder to fix if you get it wrong. It will be nice to see what the fixed version looks like.

*LMHmedchem*


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thinking it out in my head I see me digging a wide hole that extends past the shed so I can get the post all the way and then kind of slide it over and fill the hole with concrete. It kind of sounds like fun if it goes smooth and I have a solid foundation when all is done.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

nikeman said:


> Thinking it out in my head I see me digging a wide hole that extends past the shed so I can get the post all the way and then kind of slide it over and fill the hole with concrete. It kind of sounds like fun if it goes smooth and I have a solid foundation when all is done.


THe post is only going to be as tall as from the top of the filled sonotube to the bottom of the 4x4 support. There will not be any issue sticking one end of the post down into the sonotube and then aligning it to the framing of the shed. The person who is helping you may do it differently, so it's hard to say.

*LMHmedchem*


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Awesome to hear you are getting some help!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm waiting on the phone call from my contractor when he finally decides to show up (been stood up for 5 days now) wondering what happened to his foundation. I'm also curious to see how he will negotiate what I should pay him. 

My defense for not giving him the full $500 I owe from the original agreement. 
1. He did not finish the foundation
2. He did not finish the door
3. Last time I talked to him he said he'd come finish up Monday morning and have not seen or heard from him since
4. He was supposed to finish last Friday but had an issue and then promised he'd be there Saturday morning. Saturday came and went and I had to call him Sunday morning to find out he was "coming Monday instead". 


Still not done. That was my little vent


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## pesos (Nov 6, 2011)

nikeman said:


> I'm waiting on the phone call from my contractor when he finally decides to show up (been stood up for 5 days now) wondering what happened to his foundation. I'm also curious to see how he will negotiate what I should pay him.
> 
> My defense for not giving him the full $500 I owe from the original agreement.
> 1. He did not finish the foundation
> ...


I hope this works out for you. It is unfortunate there are some guys out there that take advantage of people and have no pride in their work. Just want the money, nothing more. Fair pay for fair work is not a creed all practice.

Good Luck.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Post 34,35 36, PERMIT. I know it's after the fact but still not to late call the building inspector for your area and ask him the question, I had a shed built by a licensed contractor and was wondering if a permit was needed (explain shed to him/her) to do this and should the contractor get the permit or the homeowner. Now you might have a reason to hold the rest of the cash, It's really hard to say if nothings in writing. If a permit was needed I am sure the footings /blocks are not approved. You really don't even need an excuse just don't pay but be prepared for anything.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

If I did need a permit then wouldn't it be expensive to get one? And it's not to late even though the shed is pretty much done? I always assumed the contractor would bring up the permit if it was needed.

Edit. I just retread your reply. Aren't inspectors expensive? Then a permit cost on top would prob be as much if not more than what I owe this guy.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

nikeman said:


> If I did need a permit then wouldn't it be expensive to get one? And it's not to late even though the shed is pretty much done? I always assumed the contractor would bring up the permit if it was needed.
> 
> Edit. I just retread your reply. Aren't inspectors expensive? Then a permit cost on top would prob be as much if not more than what I owe this guy.


It's not a home inspector, it would be the local building inspector (the one you would speak to about the permit). They might drive out gratis to look at the situation. Just go talk to the inspector and they will tell you what needs to happen. That's their job.

Pulling a permit might cost a few hundred (probably less than the balance to the contractor I would guess), but the ambiguity about the whole project will be at an end - they'll tell you exactly what is and isn't allowed. Do it right and put this all behind you, you'll be happier that way.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm thinking that I will end up just paying the guy, at least the majority of what he's owed just because the $500 isn't worth the headache of potentially going to court and stuff. I was going to recommend this guy to my dad for his porch but I am glad I didn't now. He obviously knows what he's doing but I think he's just gotten to old and lazy for the work now. 

The plan now is to jack up the one side slightly, remove the blocks, pour concrete footers with rebar, replace blocks with mortar on the tall stacks. All with joecaption's help and tools. Then wait for my contractor to show up when he feels like it and deal with him.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

I would be careful with calling out an inspector now! You did not have a permit to build it(evident by no inspections ) most of the time it is the homeowners responsible to pull the permit.
He could show up an tell you to tear the whole thing down!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm not going that route.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

sublime2 said:


> I would be careful with calling out an inspector now! You did not have a permit to build it(evident by no inspections ) most of the time it is the homeowners responsible to pull the permit.
> He could show up an tell you to tear the whole thing down!


FYI - Free standing sheds are not always a permit required project. 
Each town/city makes specifications on the limitations (usually based on SF size) as to when a permit is needed.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

All that matters to me is that this thing gets done and gets done right. I am on track to doing just that so all should be good.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

You should be able to look up online what a permit costs. They don't always cost the same for everything (a permit to build a house costs more than a permit to build a porch, etc). Remember that the building inspectors work for you. Part of their job is exactly this, to insure that contractors build up to minimum code. This insures the safety of structures, and also insures that the consumer didn't get ripped off.

One thing you could do is to call and ask if you need a permit to have a shed built and ask what the permit costs. You don't need to say that you already have it built. If you didn't need a permit, then you could ask if one of the inspectors could come and look at the foundation, or even email them pictures. If a city inspector says it's not right, then you can just tell the contractor to fix it, or you aren't going to pay the balance of the contract. That's why you pay in installments in the first place. If he won't fix it, you are well within your rights to use the balance to have the job finished.

If it turns out that you did need a permit, when you have the conversation with the contractor, you can say that if he doesn't fix the issue, you are going to go the the building department and report that he built without a permit and didn't build the foundation properly. If they do allot of work in your area, they aren't going to want to get in hot water with the building department. The building department isn't gong to require you to pull down the shed unless the framing of the shed is unsound. They will require you to pull a permit and get it fixed with a plan that they approve, but you are going to do that anyway.

If you decide you don't care about the money since you are going to get it fixed and that won't cost too much, they you could just forget the whole thing. I would make sure to make an Angie's List post about the contractor and make sure you tell him that he has lost the contract for your fathers porch and that you will be spreading the word to avoid him.

You do need to give him a reasonable opportunity to fix things first. Contracting is not an easy business and you often have to juggle allot of jobs at once and it can be hard to keep everyone happy. With a little prodding, he may come back and finish, or he may knock some off of the bill for you to use in correcting the problem. Supplies to fix this will probably be < $100. The value of using the inspectors office is that you will learn if this guy is doing this to allot of customers or if this is an exception.

*LMHmedchem*


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## pesos (Nov 6, 2011)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> FYI - Free standing sheds are not always a permit required project. Each town/city makes specifications on the limitations (usually based on SF size) as to when a permit is needed.


Well, if anything, at least the issue for the OP will highlight people
should check first. Depending on project, some contractors expect the homeowner to pull the permit.

In my town (MA), any shed less than 10x12 does NOT require a permit. I recently put a small workshop in the backyard at 12x18 and permit WAS required. I had to supply a full scaled drawing, BOM (such as floor joists at 2x8 PT, type of foundation, etc. Cost of permit was $43.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I really do not want to deal with any of that to be honest. 

It appears that he showed up today (I'm at work) and put blocks down where the sticks were and maybe finished the door. I feel better about it now being that it is at least supported better. I had left him a note that the back tall column was leaning a little so maybe he fixed that too. I will check when I get home.


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

pesos said:


> Well, if anything, at least the issue for the OP will highlight people
> should check first. Depending on project, some contractors expect the homeowner to pull the permit.


Even where the homeowner is going to pull the permit, the contractor should say if it's needed or not, or at least tell the customer that they need to check. This is the contractors business and area of expertise, the typical homeowner isn't likely to know anything about it. If they never mention a permit, I think a reasonable person could be expected to infer that one is not needed, especially for something like a shed. I also live in MA, and permits are pretty cheap. It can run up into the $100s for a bath or kitchen where you need the building, plumbing, and electrical inspectors for at least two inspections each.

*LMHmedchem*


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

Permits are often all about the money. I live in a very rural area and have a large property. To my surprise, I had to get a permit and inspection for a premanufactured Amish garden shed that just sits on the ground. The permit was $80. The inspector "inspected" it without getting out of his car. The clincher: I now have a Certificate of Occupancy for my shed.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

nikeman said:


> I'm not going that route.


Then hope none of your neighbors rats you out. It happens.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

md2lgyk said:


> Permits are often all about the money. I live in a very rural area and have a large property. To my surprise, I had to get a permit and inspection for a premanufactured Amish garden shed that just sits on the ground. The permit was $80. The inspector "inspected" it without getting out of his car. The clincher: I now have a Certificate of Occupancy for my shed.


At least you have a place to legally sleep when your wife is pissed at you. Lol


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

md2lgyk said:


> Then hope none of your neighbors rats you out. It happens.


I'm sure it does. But I will cross that bridge when/if it happens. I think I'm getting to an age where I don't let things bother me like I used to. Unless of course I'm getting pushed around by a annoying contractor. Lol

Here's that back really tall column I asked him to fix. It looks like he fixed it decently. 









Here's one before


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Doesn't look much different but I'm pretty sure the blocks weren't that straight at first and it was leaning. Plus he put another shim in there because it was just under the corner of the beam and was sticking out a litte.


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## pesos (Nov 6, 2011)

nikeman said:


> Doesn't look much different but I'm pretty sure the blocks weren't that straight at first and it was leaning. Plus he put another shim in there because it was just under the corner of the beam and was sticking out a litte.


I agree, does not look much different at all. I was hoping he would 
put a little more effort into this to help you (a couple of shims??) but, I was wrong.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's just another reason why I wish I was home when he got there. I would have given him a really hard time about not showing up for 4 days. To me that's ridiculous enough and as you can tell it caused to question a lot of his work. If he finished up the first day he was supposed to I would not have questioned anything about him. We will do a good walk around together before he gets paid, that's for sure. 

Atleast he didn't ask my wife for money today. That shows me that he knows I'm going to look at it before he gets paid.


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## eclark (Jan 23, 2012)

That is one scary looking set of supports. There will come a day where that whole shed torques, pops off the block and slides down the slope. It might be 10 years or it might be next week. Those piers should have at least been square. Any force applied perpendicular to the long face of those things will cause it to topple over (wind, too much weight on one side, differential settlement - literally anything). If you want to know what I mean, take 4 blocks and stack them. Fill the cores to tie them together. Push against the short side of the top block and it probably won't move much. Push against the long side of the top block and it will topple much more easily. All the weight of that shed and everything in it is concentrated at those pier locations. Even if you think it takes 100 pounds of force to topple the blocks over, consider that each of those supports is reacting to much more than that amount. 

If you think the blocks are strong enough because they were mortared together, consider that mortar is typically weaker than the blocks. It's done deliberately so that any stresses release along the joint rather than through the block. Think about how many block walls you see where cracks follow the joint lines versus where they crack through the block.

I have a lot of respect for contractors who do things the right way. What this guy sold you is criminal. It needs footings and adequate piers. Without those two elements I wouldn't step in it or walk behind it.

And i certainly wouldn't pay for it! What's he going to do - put a lien on it?


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> If he finished up the first day he was supposed to I would not have questioned anything about him.


Look it as a blessing that he didn't finish on time!.


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## Okami (Jul 18, 2011)

I honestly cant belive you are gonna pay him after reading this whole thing. Most states consider this a civilian issue and by not paying him he would have to hire a lawyer which would most likely exceed that which you owe him. Although his chances of winning would almost be zero percent. It will hold hold for awhile but expect to replace this within the future.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

I hope you don't park a riding mower in that thing. I would think if you put a ramp on the shed, and you drive up the ramp it will put some lateral pressure on the whole structure. Enough lateral pressure and that thing will topple over. I'm not an engineer but that is just what I'm picturing in my head.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Remember that I am getting some concrete footers and mortaring the tall piers. Then I am going to anchor all 4 corners deep into the ground. I agree that he should have used a better method to support this shed on the low side but he didn't and unfortunately I did not know any better or I would have been better prepared. Me and joecaption are also planning to double up the blocks around the tall piers. I am confident that when all is said and done this shed will be solid.


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## Okami (Jul 18, 2011)

As long as its solid in the end thats all that matters. :yes:


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## Team Convoy (Mar 31, 2012)

*Entry door - installed backwards*

I hate to pile on...

I agree with everything that's been said here regarding the inadequacy of the columns (are the blocks filled with mortar and rebar?), the lack of proper ties between the columns and the structure, and the apparent absence of footings.

But have you also considered the direction of the entry door? It appears to me that this was not installed properly, as the butt of the hinges faces the exterior and the doors swing outwards, no? The door's threshold should be facing the exterior. For security reasons at the very least, the hinge pins should not be accessible from the outside. Did you intend for the doors to swing outwards?

If I'm mistaken about the hinges (it's tough to see from the first picture), apologies in advance.

-TC


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## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

I think I would want the doors to open outwards so I would not lose space inside the shed to allow for the door swing. That could take a pretty big bite out of the space inside. I don't know if security is a big issue there or not, but you should be able to get hinges that are not real easy to pull the pins on.

*LMHmedchem*


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

LMHmedchem said:


> I think I would want the doors to open outwards so I would not lose space inside the shed to allow for the door swing. That could take a pretty big bite out of the space inside. I don't know if security is a big issue there or not, but you should be able to get hinges that are not real easy to pull the pins on.
> 
> *LMHmedchem*


I agree, I would want the doors to open outward also. They make security hinges where the pins can not be removed while the door is closed.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Team Convoy said:


> I hate to pile on...
> 
> I agree with everything that's been said here regarding the inadequacy of the columns (are the blocks filled with mortar and rebar?), the lack of proper ties between the columns and the structure, and the apparent absence of footings.
> 
> ...


Those doors are supposed to be out swing doors. In fact they were special ordered because most doors open in. Security is not a huge deal around here so I could care less about the hinges showing. Like the other guy said, inward swinging doors would take up so much space it's rediculous.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Whats the latest?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

When I get home from work I will take the jacks away and be very pleased with the shed. I do not think I ever have to worry about it falling over anymore. I'm sure if I post pictures of the final product someone here will find something wrong with it but personally doing all the work that I did(concrete footers and mortar) I am very satisfied. I just need to get it level and remove the jacks this afternoon.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad to hear it! Did Joe help you? 

I think everyone critiquing had you and others safety in mind when making the comments. Nobody wants to hear about injuries/death from improper construction. 

I'd still be interested in seeing the latest pictures. Even if you PM me them if you don't want to post them online. I just enjoy construction progress threads/pics.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

no1hustler said:


> Glad to hear it! Did Joe help you?
> 
> I think everyone critiquing had you and others safety in mind when making the comments. Nobody wants to hear about injuries/death from improper construction.
> 
> I'd still be interested in seeing the latest pictures. Even if you PM me them if you don't want to post them online. I just enjoy construction progress threads/pics.


Yep, joe came by and gave me step by step instructions on what he would do and I followed his steps as best as I could. I never worked with concrete or mortar before this but it is what it is and I am satisfied with what I did. Maybe I will send you a couple pics when it's leveled and off the jacks.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

nikeman said:


> Yep, joe came by and gave me step by step instructions on what he would do and I followed his steps as best as I could. I never worked with concrete or mortar before this but it is what it is and I am satisfied with what I did. Maybe I will send you a couple pics when it's leveled and off the jacks.


That's great. Hopefully the points can now be corrected.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I think you should post the final images so everyone can see what was done as a learning/safety experience and explain it also like you did when it wasn't going that good. The fellow DIYers like the final feedback.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

I would definitely like to see the final result. I just had a shed built that I'm very happy with, but it's also supported much like yours, with non-solid concrete blocks etc. So I've been following this thread closely, picking up ideas for how I might reinforce my own shed's foundation. I'd love to see what you ended up with.

Here's mine:



















Dan


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Dan,how about some closer pics of the back end of your shed.
Wow!
Looking at the pics you supplied my first thought was,you hit that shed while putting your riding mower away its falling over.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

Surprisingly, with all the pictures I took through every step of the building and wiring process, it seems I never took any shots of the back. I'll take some tomorrow.

They did a good job making everything level and plumb -- I went over it carefully with a level before paying them. So it's fine right now -- I just worry that over time, with erosion, settling, etc, things will change. I'd rather take whatever steps I can ahead of time, to keep it sturdy and stable for the long term.

When I first scheduled the build, I was told that the build site needed to be no more than 20" out of level from the highest point to the lowest. I measured with a line level and found that it was around 22", so I called and asked if that'd be a problem, and he said that it's fine, but they'd ask that I install some mobile home anchors to help support it. I'm still trying to track those down (couldn't find them at HD or Lowes, guess it's more of a specialty item).

When they arrived to build the shed, they made comments about possibly needing to put it on posts, but in the end I guess they decided it was fine as it is. But reading this thread, it seems that I should probably go ahead and make some improvements to the foundation. I'm not yet sure exactly what I'm going to do -- I'm currently in the middle of building a fence, which is taking all my attention and free time -- but I'd like to see what nikeman did with his, to give me ideas for when I'm ready to get back to mine.

Anyway, didn't want to hijack the thread or anything, just trying to add my vote for posting the pictures  I'll post my own once I have a chance to take some.

Dan


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Shed still not 100% done due to an almost disastrous mistake on my part. While trying to hammer in a shim in the back corner the entire shed moved to a point that it almost fell off of the piers! I noticed in time and was able to push it back flush on the piers with a jack but it rattled my nerves a little. Lesson learned there. If I didn't have the blocks mortared the entire shed would have came down. I have the 2 low corners supported by 2 stacks of clocks mortared together in an L-shape and after my little mishap I might stack and mortar some blocks beside the center stack also just for good measure.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also, thecowgod, how much did they charge you to run the power back there? How many outlets did you put in there, what kind of lighting inside? I am going to put power in mine when ever my bank account recovers from the shed cost and other unexpected bills I've had in the past couple months.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Also, thecowgod, how much did they charge you to run the power back there? How many outlets did you put in there, what kind of lighting inside? I am going to put power in mine when ever my bank account recovers from the shed cost and other unexpected bills I've had in the past couple months.


I ran the power myself. I'm using the shed as a woodworking workshop, so I wanted lots of outlets -- I ran two 20A circuits, and put three double-gang boxes on each of the longer 16' walls, with one outlet from each circuit in each box, and one box on the short 10' wall at the back.

I wanted to be sure to have lots of light, so I got two 8' fluorescent fixtures that run the whole length of the 16' shed. Each uses four 4' 32w T8 bulbs, and has electronic high-output ballasts. I also mounted wire guards on the lights, since I'm sure they'll be whacked by an errant 2x4 or something at some point. 

I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but it was more expensive than I expected  Let me try to remember the main costs:

$125 for a one-day rental of a 36" trencher from SunBelt
$100 for 40' of NM-B 6/3 to get from the panel to the outside of the house
$215 for 60' of THWN (three #6 and one #10)
$50 for the 1.25" conduit
$80 for the subpanel in the shed
$20 for the #4 bare copper for the ground rod
$15 for the ground rod and clamp
$100 for 200' of 12/2 romex in the shed
$20 for 50' of 14/2 romex for the lighting circuit
probably another $100 or so for outlets, junction boxes, etc (including two GFCI outlets)
$200 for internal lights
$50 for external light

So I guess that's about $1075 (ouch, hadn't added everything up till now). Of course, there's lots that could have been done cheaper -- I sort of overdid things to be sure it was done right the first time. It just passed the final electrical inspection yesterday, woo! :thumbsup: Final (and first) building inspection is on Tuesday. I'm curious if the building inspector will have anything to say about the supports.






































Dan


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh right, and you'd asked for better pictures of the rear of the shed. Here you go.




















Dan


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks. That's a lot more then I expected. One thing that I see on your supports that makes me worry is that the bottom blocks look like hollow blocks. One thing I learned is that those will sink in the ground like a cookie cutter. If/when you fix those piers you should put solid blocks on the ground or use concrete footers like I did.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Thanks. That's a lot more then I expected.


Yeah, same here  Most of my projects are carefully budgeted ahead of time, but the electrical for the shed was the one where I just sort of winged it, and expected it to be roughly $3-400. I kept being surprised as the costs kept growing. But like I said, it could have been done cheaper. I could have gone with two of the $50 shop lights that came with (flimsy) wire guards, bringing the lighting down to $130. I could have run the power straight across at outlet level instead of going up high, which would have saved about 75' of Romex. I didn't necessarily need two parallel circuits -- that would have cut the Romex cost in half, etc. But it's definitely not cheap.



> One thing that I see on your supports that makes me worry is that the bottom blocks look like hollow blocks. One thing I learned is that those will sink in the ground like a cookie cutter. If/when you fix those piers you should put solid blocks on the ground or use concrete footers like I did.


Ah, good to know. Yeah, I like the idea of the concrete footers. The shed has a two year warranty, so I think first I'll call the builder and see what they can do about improving the foundation.

Dan


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

TheCowGod, that looks like a nice shed, but I think the roof is seriously under-built. 2x4 rafters are OK if they are part of a truss system. Your roof is built as a traditional roof with rafters and ridge board. 2x4s as common rafters is inadequate, even for a shed, IMO. Also, you need rafter ties and collar ties every 4' min. The single 2x4 you have keeping the two walls from spreading in the middle is insufficient. I would look into converting those rafters into trusses.

However, it's a shed and it's safe to say you won't be running into it when a storm blows in. That said, you've sunk some good money into it. I think that roof will start coming apart in medium-strength winds and you'll end up with a whole lot of money down the drain. Right now, that's going to happen regardless because of the foundation. However, once you address that, it's time to start looking at the roof framing.

Sorry. You didn't ask for my opinion. So, feel free to tell me to mind my own business. Just trying to help you save what looks like a nice shed.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

wow. those block foundations look pretty scary.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

TheCowGod said:


> Oh right, and you'd asked for better pictures of the rear of the shed. Here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dan,

Is this a joke?? Another shed that will fall right off the so called footings/piers. This is dangerous and should not even be posted here or used as an example. How are the girders tied in???

Did you get permits and inspections for the electrical??


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

yeah. if i HAD to do it that way. i would get a 2x2' solid block base . then stack those blocks, 2 at the bottom. then 2 more on top of that, but "turned". and then go only 3 high. then, perhaps, fill them with cement.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

cortell said:


> TheCowGod, that looks like a nice shed, but I think the roof is seriously under-built. 2x4 rafters are OK if they are part of a truss system. Your roof is built as a traditional roof with rafters and ridge board. 2x4s as common rafters is inadequate, even for a shed, IMO. Also, you need rafter ties and collar ties every 4' min. The single 2x4 you have keeping the two walls from spreading in the middle is insufficient. I would look into converting those rafters into trusses.


Thanks, helpful comments like yours are appreciated. I'll look into this some more after the foundation is secure.



Joe Carola said:


> Did you get permits and inspections for the electrical??


Yes, as I mentioned above, I got building and electrical permits for this shed. Had a successful trench inspection and just passed the final electrical inspection the other day. The building inspector said he only needed to make one inspection, the final, and to wait until the electrical final inspection was done before scheduling the final building inspection. It's scheduled for Tuesday. I'm curious to see what he has to say.

Dan


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm curious to here what the inspector days also. At least you covered all your bases and have a warranty. Your in good shape.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

@TheCowGod, you better get sonotubes filled with concrete down below the frost line( if any) and get them up under that shed and tied in before you loose it. 

@nikeman where's them final pictures of the new foundation for your shed we asked for??????????
How bout sharing the end result to us guys that were following your shed threads.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Will post pictures this week. I usually don't get home until its almost dark. It's all done minus replacing some dirt I dug out for concrete. Busy busy busy all the time it seems.


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## TheCowGod (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, the building inspector was just here and it passed. He said it looked great. I asked specifically about the foundation, and he said it's not a problem for this type of building. I asked what the frost line is here in Knoxville, and he said it's 12", and yes, if I poured concrete footers they'd need to be at least 12" deep, but I don't need to worry about concrete footers for this building.

I'm sure people will question his judgement, and personally, regardless of what he said I still want to improve the foundation by at least pouring concrete pads and beefing up the blocks like nikeman did, but it's definitely interesting to hear that from an inspector.

Dan


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

His assessment is unfortunate, IMO. It's also not surprising. Watch a few episodes of a Mike Holmes series and you'll find ample evidence of inspectors (private and city-commissioned) that have been woefully ineffective. I've also heard plenty of first hand stories where an inspector signed off on work without hardly looking at it (or at all). My point here is not that most inspectors are bad; it's that some don't do their jobs well. Even if he did not technically need to ding you on the shed foundation, his reaction and warnings should have been the same as what you've gotten here. That is a dangerous situation. At best, a shed held up like that will fall and damage itself and its contents. At worst, it will happen while someone is inside. I'm glad you're determined to improve the situation despite the passed inspection.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

TheCowGod said:


> Well, the building inspector was just here and it passed. He said it looked great. I asked specifically about the foundation, and he said it's not a problem for this type of building. I asked what the frost line is here in Knoxville, and he said it's 12", and yes, if I poured concrete footers they'd need to be at least 12" deep, but I don't need to worry about concrete footers for this building.
> 
> I'm sure people will question his judgement, and personally, regardless of what he said I still want to improve the foundation by at least pouring concrete pads and beefing up the blocks like nikeman did, but it's definitely interesting to hear that from an inspector.
> 
> Dan


Your building inspector obviously stopped at the bar before he came to your house. Good luck and I hope the shed doesn't fall down when you move things in and out of it. Next thing you will say is that you have a riding mower going in there.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Since I haven't posted in a while I was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction in to what to use to anchor this shed. I still need to cover the trim but I don't have the money for that right now. I'm hoping anchors are cheap. No one at home depot can ever help me out and I can't find anything online to anchor right to the ground with no concrete slab. 

Thanks.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

First off we never got to see the pictures of the finished product. If the concrete work was done correctly you should have been able to secure the shed to the concrete with the proper ties. You shouldn't have to worry about tieing it down now.


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## lewisthepilgrim (Dec 8, 2011)

Are you serious ???

please tell me thats a joke?


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

C'mon guys. The OP has already been given enough grief about this (we're on page eight of this thread). He's here looking for help, not for further ridicule.

Nikeman, please post a recent pic of what you have, assuming you've already followed some of the advice previously posted.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Your looking at it the wrong way cortell.

Not giving grief just trying to save the shed and nikeman further problems. He did say many post ago he was going to post pictures so we're not really asking for anything that was not talked about including the foundation for that building. There's many real experienced builders and framers on here that can lead him in the right direction after seeing pictures and what needs to be done.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> Your looking at it the wrong way cortell.
> 
> Not giving grief just trying to save the shed and nikeman further problems. He did say many post ago he was going to post pictures so we're not really asking for anything that was not talked about including the foundation for that building. There's many real experienced builders and framers on here that can lead him in the right direction after seeing pictures and what needs to be done.


You're preaching to the choir. Note I, too, encouraged him to post updated pictures. I'm referring to "are you kidding me" style comments. We have more than enough of those already on this thread. I think the OP gets it. That's why he's asking for our help. Let's help and not ridicule.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I never took pictures of it since its been finished up. Basically I dug out a little and poorer 2'x2' concrete footers. Then I mortared blocks together and to the footers. I only did this on the 3 on the lowest side and the back middle sine they were all stacked up so high. I would rather anchor it to the ground since their is no concrete on the other side. It's always almost dark when I get home and if I'm off it's me and a 9 month old so going outside to take pictures of my shed is not on my mind. I will try and get some though.


Edit: I dug down to soil that was not soft and spongy like the top layer. Wanted to add that part. It may still settle down alittle over time but it's still basically dead on level in both directions. I'm happy with it and have even put up a loft recently. I'm loving the shed, just wish I could get some time out there. I have all my tools out there but they aren't organized or anything yet. I still need a ramp also! Never ending work.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> I never took pictures of it since its been finished up. Basically I dug out a little and poorer 2'x2' concrete footers. Then I mortared blocks together and to the footers. I only did this on the 3 on the lowest side and the back middle sine they were all stacked up so high. I would rather anchor it to the ground since their is no concrete on the other side. It's always almost dark when I get home and if I'm off it's me and a 9 month old so going outside to take pictures of my shed is not on my mind. I will try and get some though.


Suggesting a connector requires knowing in detail what the current column looks like and how the shed is resting on it. Hence the request for a pic.

BTW, did you put rebar in the column of concrete blocks that extends into (is embedded in) the footing, and fill the block cores with mortar or concrete? If not, the column won't be much better than what you started with. I.e., if you're relying solely on mortar to keep the column together, that's not very reliable.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I didn't put rebar in the column since I used a lot of solid blocks. I did put rebar in the footings that I poured though. The 4x6 skids are just laying across the top of the blocks like before. I want to anchor this this without having cables sticking out on the sides of the shed. What do people normally use when they anchor a shed straight to the ground? I read mobile home anchors somewhere but have not seen any anywhere. 

I'm slacking on the pictures.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Again, pics are everything in this type of question. When you post some, we can recommend a connection.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

cortell said:


> Again, pics are everything in this type of question. When you post some, we can recommend a connection.


 
" Just observing this, I'm done" COLDIRON out.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...Id=-1&keyword=Mobil+Home+anchor&storeId=10051


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

cortell said:


> Suggesting a connector requires knowing in detail what the current column looks like and how the shed is resting on it. Hence the request for a pic.
> 
> _BTW, did you put rebar in the column of concrete blocks that extends into (is embedded in) the footing, and fill the block cores with mortar or concrete? If not, the column won't be much better than what you started with. I.e., if you're relying solely on mortar to keep the column together, that's not very reliable._




I disagree, I have seen many building including homes that didn't have the blocks filled and they have been standing for all these years. Yes filling the blocks is good but it is not going to fall over, for crying out loud it is a shed not an airport. The soil where you live may warrant filling and rebar, not all soil is the same. 

As for a 10 wide shed with 2X4s for rafters, yes they are are fine, it does snow in Knoxville but not enough to bust a 2X4s, I do think it needs a few more ceiling joist to tie the walls together. I also would do something about the blocks just siting on the ground without a concrete pad but concrete columns are not necessary. I built for 42 years and never the first time ever used the tubes and concrete columns.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

jiju1943 said:


> [/I]
> 
> I disagree, I have seen many building including homes that didn't have the blocks filled and they have been standing for all these years. Yes filling the blocks is good but it is not going to fall over, for crying out loud it is a shed not an airport. The soil where you live may warrant filling and rebar, not all soil is the same.
> 
> As for a 10 wide shed with 2X4s for rafters, yes they are are fine, it does snow in Knoxville but not enough to bust a 2X4s, I do think it needs a few more ceiling joist to tie the walls together. I also would do something about the blocks just siting on the ground without a concrete pad but concrete columns are not necessary. I built for 42 years and never the first time ever used the tubes and concrete columns.


Sorry, but if you're saying it's OK to support a 10x12 shed 3' above grade with a column of concrete blocks held together with nothing but mortar, and not tied to the footing...then that's all I need to hear. It has nothing to do with soil condition, but lateral forces (wind and other) pushing on the structure. I sure hope you've used more common sense than that in your 42 years of building.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

cortell said:


> Sorry, but if you're saying it's OK to support a 10x12 shed 3' above grade with a column of concrete blocks held together with nothing but mortar, and not tied to the footing...then that's all I need to hear. It has nothing to do with soil condition, but lateral forces (wind and other) pushing on the structure. I sure hope you've used more common sense than that in your 42 years of building.


Did he not say he laid the blocks in an L shape or am I confused? I am not talking about the blocks on the shed in Knoxville, they do need correcting, I am talking about the OP.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

jiju1943 said:


> Did he not say he laid the blocks in an L shape or am I confused? I am not talking about the blocks on the shed in Knoxville, they do need correcting, I am talking about the OP.


We are indeed talking about the OP (nikeman from Virginia). I don't see anywhere that he laid blocks in an L shape. He said he poured 2x2 footers and mortared blocks together on top of the footers.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I did stack the corners in an l-shape. I don't want to get everyone arguing and everything again. Thanks joe.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here we go guys. Let me have it. Excuse all the junk wood and extra cinder blocks laying all over the place. I'm sure it's not good enough and prob needs to be torn down according to some of you guys buy I am happy with it. I still need to bury the footings and put up some lattice but other than that I am done.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

OK, well I guess I did miss where you stated in the posts that you did an L block configuration. That's certainly more stable than just a thin column of blocks. Unfortunately, though, you have a Frankenstein combination of things going on there, clearly because you're trying to reach a specific arbitrary height, using materials of fixed heights. I really can't recommend anything reasonable there. I see lots of hacks floating through my head, but I wouldn't go with any of them.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Not sure what you mean. I only used the blocks and some treated wood to shim it up to make it level. There are scrap pieces laying all around and even on the columns that aren't doing anything. I just put then there and never moved them.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> Not sure what you mean. I only used the blocks and some treated wood to shim it up to make it level. There are scrap pieces laying all around and even on the columns that aren't doing anything. I just put then there and never moved them.


You have hollow concrete block, you have solid blocks of different thicknesses, you have pieces of lumber of various thicknesses...all stacked up. That's what I mean by a Frankenstein combination.

If you're handy with a masonry saw, and can cut a concrete block to exactly the height in this pic, then I have a reasonable solution for you. Otherwise, I've got nothing.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm no mason. This was my first time ever even using concrete and mortar. I used different size blocks because that's what would work. Any other combination would have made it to low or to high. I guess it is frankenstienish. Lol. It's solid though, once the mortar had a couple days to dry I gave the columns a solid push and tried to rock them and they didn't budge at all.

Also that 2x6 that goes all the way across all 3 side columns is attached to each skid.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> I'm no mason. This was my first time ever even using concrete and mortar. I used different size blocks because that's what would work. Any other combination would have made it to low or to high. I guess it is frankenstienish. Lol. It's solid though, once the mortar had a couple days to dry I gave the columns a solid push and tried to rock them and they didn't budge at all.


That may be so, but unfortunately you didn't think ahead and figure out how you would connect the shed to the column. Now your options are very limited, assuming you want to use that column as-is. 

Best of luck; hopefully someone more creative than I can throw some good ideas at you.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

All I want to do is anchor the shed to the ground. The anchors joe linked me to should work fine.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Nm. He's gone


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

When you said your blocks were "L" shaped that isn't what I had in mind, I thought you had the blocks laced, that isn't very strong there but hopefully it will hold. As far as anchoring to the blocks, it won't do any good, if a wind is strong enough to move the shed the blocks sure aren't going to hold it in place.


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## puttster (Apr 30, 2012)

jiju1943 said:


> As far as anchoring to the blocks, it won't do any good, if a wind is strong enough to move the shed the blocks sure aren't going to hold it in place.


Why do you say that, seems to me it would help a lot. 
puttster


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I think I've said this 5 or 6 times now but I don't want to anchor to the blocks. I want to anchor to the ground and the anchors joe linked me to are what I had in mind.


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