# Cold walls, humidity issues, frost issues with exterior doors



## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Howitzer said:


> The rest of the house doesn't have a drywalled ceiling (suspended ceiling for most of it, our laundry room/furnace room has an open ceiling).


can i see pics of this ?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

Hi Fix 'n it, thanks for responding,

Correction - "the rest of our BASEMENT doesn't have a drywalled ceiling (suspended ceiling for most of it, our laundry room/furnace room has an open ceiling)."

What areas do you want me to take photos of?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

more info...

We had an government-subsidized energy audit a few years back. We put in a high-efficiency furnace, new energy efficient windows and doors. I did some air sealing in the attic with expanding foam around light boxes and air sealed the attic hole. Our energy rating is now 75 (EnerGuide).

Canada's EnerGuide ratings:

Typical Energy Efficiency Ratings
Type of House, Rating
New House build to building code standards	65-72
New house with some energy-efficiency improvements	73-79
Energy-efficient new house	80-90
House requiring little or no purchased energy	91-100

So our 1975 house rates in the "New house with some energy-efficiency improvements" category.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

1. fiberglass insulation. my bet it that it is cheap and carelessly installed. causing some of your issues. and there could still be air sealing issues. 

what is in the attic ?



btw = cool name :thumbup:


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

Fix'n it said:


> what is in the attic ?


Blown-in fibreglass insulation in the attic... my guess about 10"-12"....


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

Fix'n it said:


> 1. fiberglass insulation. my bet it that it is cheap and carelessly installed. causing some of your issues. and there could still be air sealing issues.:


I'm wondering about this too... we don't have condensation issues in other parts of the house like we do in the master bedroom (south west corner of main floor)...


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

1) as alluded to above, there could likely be some areas where insulation is thin or missing causing those cold spots. Some thermal imaging ould probably serve you well.
2) On the moisture, i would be beneficial to find out what the rh is. If you did a good enough job airsealing it is possible that some mechanical ventilation is advisable. That really should've been addressed in the post test portion of the energy audit.
3) Are the door installed and sealing well? I see a disproportionately high number of poorly installed "energy efficient doors", which will leak moist air out to condensate on the storms. Conversely, if the doors are left open a lot (kids?), that could be the cause.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> 1) as alluded to above, there could likely be some areas where insulation is thin or missing causing those cold spots. Some thermal imaging ould probably serve you well.
> 2) On the moisture, i would be beneficial to find out what the rh is. If you did a good enough job airsealing it is possible that some mechanical ventilation is advisable. That really should've been addressed in the post test portion of the energy audit.
> 3) Are the door installed and sealing well? I see a disproportionately high number of poorly installed "energy efficient doors", which will leak moist air out to condensate on the storms. Conversely, if the doors are left open a lot (kids?), that could be the cause.


1. I do have this device, I will check the wall... http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/black-decker-temperature-reader-0574566p.html#.VGJnDjTF864

2. I just bought this as well... http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/indoor-temperature-and-humidity-reader-0429931p.html. I will see what the RH is and let you know.

3. I think the doors are sealing quite well... is there a easy way to find out? It is a good point that the exterior door is sometimes left open for a while which could add to the frosting problem. However when it is REALLY cold and the exterior doors have been closed all night, the next morning the storm door is really frosted and commonly frozen to the jam with ice and needs to be given a kick to open it.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

The hygrometer to measure RH will be helpful. Those point and click laser thermometers otoh are kind of hit or miss on accuracy, and might not give you a great overview of the issues. You might consider paying someone to stop out with a thermal cam for an hour and go through the house for you.

On the doors, do you see ANY daylight around the perimeter when closed? Not necessarily scientific, but that will give you a good idea on the seal.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> The hygrometer to measure RH will be helpful. Those point and click laser thermometers otoh are kind of hit or miss on accuracy, and might not give you a great overview of the issues. You might consider paying someone to stop out with a thermal cam for an hour and go through the house for you.
> 
> On the doors, do you see ANY daylight around the perimeter when closed? Not necessarily scientific, but that will give you a good idea on the seal.


I think the weather stripping is fine, I don't see any daylight coming through. What category would I look in the yellow pages for a thermal cam service? What does this cost? It would be cool to have my own camera, but I know they are pricey.


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## begal (Jul 23, 2014)

Sounds like you need a good vapour and air barrier on the inside, these can be more important than thick insulation. Humidity is probably cause be lack of insulation, so you are over heating creating condensation. Get cellulose blown into the attic will improve thing.


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## jigger (Nov 2, 2014)

you might have a vapor barrier issue (lack of or poor install) and in adequate insulation in the master bedroom causing an air leak. Our ( North shore of Lake Superior ) cold -30 winters can cause various issues. The frost on the door could be a small leak around the door. You lose a lot of heat out of the joist ends in the basement. I've wanted to spray foam the area but have gotten around it. I just have regular insulation in the joists.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

begal said:


> Sounds like you need a good vapour and air barrier on the inside, these can be more important than thick insulation. Humidity is probably cause be lack of insulation, so you are over heating creating condensation. Get cellulose blown into the attic will improve thing.


I think our house has poly vapour barrier, but how do you really know until you rip off the drywall and inspect. Our house has a 75 EnerGuide rating so you would think vapour barrier would be present, though it might be absent in the master bedroom...


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

jigger said:


> The frost on the door could be a small leak around the door. You lose a lot of heat out of the joist ends in the basement. I've wanted to spray foam the area but have gotten around it. I just have regular insulation in the joists.


I am wanting to spray foam the rim joists around our entire basement... a big, messy job.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

Using the Canadian Tire "Indoor Temperature and Humidity Reader", 

*Master bedroom:*

humidity level is 57% min, 71% max
temperature 20.9 deg C min, 21.8 deg C max

It appears the humidity is too high... comments?

I am now measuring other parts of the house. I will post numbers ASAP.


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## begal (Jul 23, 2014)

Do you have a wet basement? Ridge vents?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

begal said:


> Do you have a wet basement? Ridge vents?


No roof ridge vents but basic roof vents. We have soffit venting on one side too, the other soffit has no venting.

Wet basement? When we get spring thaw, occasionally we have a small amount of water in one corner. Overall, not much of a problem.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

You mention a new furnace in reply #4. I am assuming this is a central heating unit with blower and duct work. Is there a remote possibility a slight positive pressure is being created forcing warm humid interior air out into the space between the storm and main door?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

SeniorSitizen said:


> You mention a new furnace in reply #4. I am assuming this is a central heating unit with blower and duct work. Is there a remote possibility a slight positive pressure is being created forcing warm humid interior air out into the space between the storm and main door?


Our newer high-efficiency forced-air furnace is a direct vent with combustion air drawn in from an outside pipe and then exhausted out another pipe. They installed the furnace using the existing duct work. I'm not sure if a positive pressure situation exists or not... I don't think so but I could be wrong.

The amount of ice and frost on the storm door can sometimes be 1" thick when it is really cold. We can extrapolate how cold the exterior air is from the amount of ice on our storm door, LOL!


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

*Kitchen (wife just made supper, boiling water):*

humidity level is 66% min, 74% max
temperature 21.1 deg C min, 22.2 deg C max


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## begal (Jul 23, 2014)

Obviously if you boil water it will create more humidity. You might start by putting a dehumidifier in the basement. Ideally humidity should be below 45%


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Howitzer said:


> Our newer high-efficiency forced-air furnace is a direct vent with combustion air drawn in from an outside pipe and then exhausted out another pipe. They installed the furnace using the existing duct work. I'm not sure if a positive pressure situation exists or not... I don't think so but I could be wrong.
> 
> The amount of ice and frost on the storm door can sometimes be 1" thick when it is really cold. We can extrapolate how cold the exterior air is from the amount of ice on our storm door, LOL!


Any positive pressure will be caused by the duct blower rather than the combustion air system.

Example: if a room has a supply register but an inadequate or non existent return duct, the room will be slightly pressurized if the door to that room is closed. You can check this condition by nearly closing a door ( especially a light weight hollow core door ) and if a positive pressure is being created the pressure will move the door.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Howitzer said:


> I think the weather stripping is fine, I don't see any daylight coming through. What category would I look in the yellow pages for a thermal cam service? What does this cost? It would be cool to have my own camera, but I know they are pricey.


Call an energy consultant/consulting company and let them know your situation. 
There is a lot of well intentioned but pretty grossly incorrect info that can be gathered on the web, so I'd definitely have a pro take a look before you spend too much time or effort. You can probably get someone to come and spend an hour with you with a thermal cam and the appropriate knowledge/experience to properly diagnose your issues for maybe $200 or less. ( A good thermal cam costs thousands).
A couple last observations: If those readings are accurate, your humidity is indeed very high. As I mentioned previously, the air sealing that you had done may necessitate some mechanical ventilation being added like a constant run bath fan or something along those lines. You can fix the spots where there may have been insulation missed, however that will not solve the moisture issue completely. For the time being, you could run an existing bath fan intermittently or run a dehumidifier to get the RH down. The appropriate RH level to get rid of the condensation will depend on the temperature, and likely be a bit lower than the 45% someone had mentioned if we are talking temperatures far below freezing.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Howitzer said:


> *Kitchen (wife just made supper, boiling water):*
> 
> humidity level is 66% min, 74% max
> temperature 21.1 deg C min, 22.2 deg C max


Using the link click on °C at the bottom of the scales ( Temp. - RH - DP ) plug in room temperatures and humidity with Dew Point circle clicked and you can see the surface temperatures condensation will begin to form that attain that DP temp or lower. 

21°C isn't in an acceptable range for prolonged periods of time, but cooking meals will cause a temporary increase and is always acceptable.


http://dpcalc.org/


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

*Basement room with drywalled ceilings (directly below master bedroom):*

humidity level is 61% min, 68% max
temperature 15.9 deg C min, 18.7 deg C max (our basement is quite cool).


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> Call an energy consultant/consulting company and let them know your situation.
> There is a lot of well intentioned but pretty grossly incorrect info that can be gathered on the web, so I'd definitely have a pro take a look before you spend too much time or effort. You can probably get someone to come and spend an hour with you with a thermal cam and the appropriate knowledge/experience to properly diagnose your issues for maybe $200 or less. ( A good thermal cam costs thousands).
> A couple last observations: If those readings are accurate, your humidity is indeed very high. As I mentioned previously, the air sealing that you had done may necessitate some mechanical ventilation being added like a constant run bath fan or something along those lines. You can fix the spots where there may have been insulation missed, however that will not solve the moisture issue completely. For the time being, you could run an existing bath fan intermittently or run a dehumidifier to get the RH down. The appropriate RH level to get rid of the condensation will depend on the temperature, and likely be a bit lower than the 45% someone had mentioned if we are talking temperatures far below freezing.


Your advice has been great! So what do you suggest I do? I am contemplating a whole-house dehumidifier... is this a good idea?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Using the link click on °C at the bottom of the scales ( Temp. - RH - DP ) plug in room temperatures and humidity with Dew Point circle clicked and you can see the surface temperatures condensation will begin to form that attain that DP temp or lower.
> 
> 21°C isn't in an acceptable range for prolonged periods of time, but cooking meals will cause a temporary increase and is always acceptable.
> 
> ...


Your advice has also been great! So what do you suggest I do? I am contemplating a whole-house dehumidifier... is this a good idea?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Howitzer said:


> Your advice has also been great! So what do you suggest I do? I am contemplating a whole-house dehumidifier... is this a good idea?


Unless it can be determined what's causing the high humidity and corrective measures taken it's looking as if a dehumidifier is the only solution.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

A dehumidifer will be a temporary solution, however whats needed is proper ventilation to address the overall indoor air quality. Did that energy audit that you had done have a blower door test? There is a range of airflow that is necessary for your home based on size, number of occupants, etc to maintain proper indoor air quality including the humidity levels. 
I'd still recommend having a pro come out and take a look. At the very least it will provide peace of mind... I realize that this is a DIY forum, but this is something that could affect the health of your home and its occupants.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> A dehumidifer will be a temporary solution, however whats needed is proper ventilation to address the overall indoor air quality. Did that energy audit that you had done have a blower door test? There is a range of airflow that is necessary for your home based on size, number of occupants, etc to maintain proper indoor air quality including the humidity levels.
> I'd still recommend having a pro come out and take a look. At the very least it will provide peace of mind... I realize that this is a DIY forum, but this is something that could affect the health of your home and its occupants.


Yes, we had a blower-door test done pre-improvements and post-improvements. We live in the southern Saskatchewan, on southern edge of zone C:









Our windows and doors are rated energy-efficient for zone C.


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## jigger (Nov 2, 2014)

Re read the first part of this post. What kinda of heat do you have? Natural gas? We live in same climate zone. Do your windows get moisture at the bottom of the windows on the inside during the cold wether. When I run only my furnace I have 50-60 % humidity. When I run the wood stove humidity drops and window moisture disappears. My house has new windows on all but three. The three are from mid eighties and the two doors are also. Mid eighties. Are your heating costs higher than comparable size house? I'm still thinking it's cold air meeting the warm house air that is causing this issue. Do you have an heat/air exchanger ? With your new house air tight rating you might need to remove / exchange air. Just normal living we create a lot of humidity.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

I found the energy audit binder that was given to us. In one of the government of Canada "ecoEnergy" booklets included, it states, quote: "Dehumidifiers are generally not effective in winter, since they can lower humidity levels to between 50 and 60 percent only"... any comments?

Link found here: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/publications/efficiency/5921


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

jigger said:


> Re read the first part of this post. What kinda of heat do you have? Natural gas? We live in same climate zone. Do your windows get moisture at the bottom of the windows on the inside during the cold wether. When I run only my furnace I have 50-60 % humidity. When I run the wood stove humidity drops and window moisture disappears. My house has new windows on all but three. The three are from mid eighties and the two doors are also. Mid eighties. Are your heating costs higher than comparable size house? I'm still thinking it's cold air meeting the warm house air that is causing this issue. Do you have an heat/air exchanger ? With your new house air tight rating you might need to remove / exchange air. Just normal living we create a lot of humidity.


We have a natural gas high-efficiency forced air, direct vented furnace. We don't have an heat/air exchanger but I am also wondering about a HRV (heat-recovery ventilator) or a "energy recovery ventilators" (ERV)... I don't know much about them or if they are worth the money... anyone?


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm not sure how you get your humidity that high. Mine is at 44 or 49 presently, depending on which hygrometer is accurate, and I have my furnace mounted humidifier set at 50.

If I don't run a humidifier, I'm not sure how low the humidity will go. I believe I get a LL reading below 35%. By then my skin would be all cracked open and I would be a mess.

So I don't understand how you get your humidity that high, with a furnace producing so much hot air.

You do have a forced air furnace, correct?

I suppose if you had electric heat or hot water heat or radiant heat in the floors, your humidity could be somewhat higher, but the only way I can think for you to get your humidity that high is if you have a humidifier on your furnace running full bore.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

cleveman said:


> I'm not sure how you get your humidity that high. Mine is at 44 or 49 presently, depending on which hygrometer is accurate, and I have my furnace mounted humidifier set at 50.
> 
> If I don't run a humidifier, I'm not sure how low the humidity will go. I believe I get a LL reading below 35%. By then my skin would be all cracked open and I would be a mess.
> 
> ...


Yes forced air, direct-venting, high-efficient natural gas. No humidifier...


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

I've heard of folks putting a vapor barrier on their ceiling. We don't do that in this climate. That would make your humidity higher.

Other than that, i can't imagine why your humidity is so high. I assume each member in your family showers, there is some cooking, etc. Going on.

Do you have your clothes dryer vented to the exterior?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

cleveman said:


> I've heard of folks putting a vapor barrier on their ceiling. We don't do that in this climate. That would make your humidity higher.
> 
> Other than that, i can't imagine why your humidity is so high. I assume each member in your family showers, there is some cooking, etc. Going on.
> 
> Do you have your clothes dryer vented to the exterior?


yes, we have an electric dryer vented outside... and yes we have the ceiling with vapour barrier, pretty standard here in Canada.


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

Do your neighbors have the same problems? With humidity levels that high, I would think all the women would have yeast infections.


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

cleveman said:


> Do your neighbors have the same problems? With humidity levels that high, I would think all the women would have yeast infections.


I don't know if the neighbours have any humidity or yeast infections issues... :laughing:


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## jigger (Nov 2, 2014)

There is not any need for a humidifier in the northern climate. Natural gas heat can be higher in humidity then electric or radiant in floor heating. New home builds require heat recovery units because they are too tightly sealed. This might be your issue. My in-laws installed heat recovery unit on an older build and noticed a difference in humidity levels immediately.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

@Howitzer, an HRV/ERV would be an option as well, albeit typically a more expensive solution than something like a constant run bath fan. Mechanical ventilation is what is needed here either way. A vapor barrier on the ceiling is indeed correct in cold climate, as is sealing pretty much every source of uncontrolled air leakage possible. These areas are majors sources of energy loss. What is often time then needed is mechanical ventilation to compensate for the house being "too tight". You may ask what's the point of that? (Most people do), and the point is that you are able to have controlled, consistent ventilation that limits the amount of energy lost.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

The reason that I asked previously about the blower door, is because depending on where the post test number came in, the mechanical ventilation should possibly have been recommended at that time.


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## jigger (Nov 2, 2014)

Did you figure this out?


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## Howitzer (Sep 12, 2008)

jigger said:


> Did you figure this out?


Not yet... why do you ask? Have a similar issue I presume...


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Did you have this problem with your old furnace. if not, any chance your old furnace was either an 80% efficient furnace, or if it was a 90%plus, did it get its combustion air from inside the house.

Next time you open the door, and there is ice on the storm door. Scrape as much of the ice off as possible, and weigh it. Is it just a few grams of ice, or is it a pound or more. Just a few grams. Your door is sealed okay. A pound, your door leaks a lot of air, whether you see daylight or not.

You need an HRV.

At 20.9°C and 57% RH. The moisuture will condense on any surface at a temp of 12.1°C.


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## jigger (Nov 2, 2014)

Howitzer said:


> Not yet... why do you ask? Have a similar issue I presume...



No just curious.


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