# Questions about consequences of high nailing shingles



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

1. Yes. Also more likely that is will rip out in entirety as it is only fastened via one set of nails.

2. Yes. 

High nailed roofs are doomed to failure in a majority of the cases.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> 1. Yes. Also more likely that is will rip out in entirety as it is only fastened via one set of nails.
> 
> 2. Yes.
> 
> High nailed roofs are doomed to failure in a majority of the cases.


Thanks. Did you agree with my wind theory? Sounds perfectly logical to me. I did know about he nails being half as many as required. I've had a lot of blow offs.

I'm asking these questions because I may be going into arbitration with BBB in my area because of a complaint I filed against local roofer who has not been cooperative. This is my first roofing nightmare in my 70 years on this earth I just need a good argument about failed sealing strips.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Depending on the pitch if it's steep and the shingles get hot the top layer can slide down.
Ever seen a mansard style roof that looks like all the shingles are coming apart and sliding down the roof?
The nailing pattern is written right on the packaging, there's a line right on the shingles, and the directions are on line. There no excuse they where not nailed in the right place.
Just go on line and look up the install directions and print them out. Take some pictures of how it was done on your roof.
Taking a picture a missing shingle is not going to do much good, need one showing the nailing pattern.
Should have been 4 nails per shingle, 6 for a high wind area.
It would be interesting to see some pictures, if they did that roofing 101 thing wrong I'd bet there's other things.
Amount of over hang, no ice and water shield, no starter strip, exposed nails.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Depending on the pitch if it's steep and the shingles get hot the top layer can slide down.
> Ever seen a mansard style roof that looks like all the shingles are coming apart and sliding down the roof?
> The nailing pattern is written right on the packaging, there's a line right on the shingles, and the directions are on line. There no excuse they where not nailed in the right place.
> Why are you asking?


Thanks Joe.
See post above for answer as to why. The slope on my roof where the shingles are failing is 10/12 and 12/12


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

We were typing at the same time.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Take some pictures of how it was done on your roof.
> Taking a picture a missing shingle is not going to do much good, need one showing the nailing pattern.
> Should have been 4 nails per shingle, 6 for a high wind area.
> It would be interesting to see some pictures, if they did that roofing 101 thing wrong I'd bet there's other things.
> Amount of over hang, no ice and water shield, no starter strip, exposed nails.


Here are a couple of photos. You can see a LOT of problems!


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Sorry...time for a tear off my friend.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Guess these really hard to read directions must have eluded him.
http://www.gaf.com/Residential_Roof...ine_Application_Instructions_English_Only.PDF


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> Sorry...time for a tear off my friend.


I agree. In fact I have already had a trusted roofer give me a price to do a tear off and re-roof a 2000 square foot area. The bad nailing job was done by one man. The was another man nailing on the other side of the house and I've never had a problem back there. This is a $5000 expense that I should not have to pay for, thus my complaint to the BBB.

My 1-1/2 year old house was destroyed by a tornado in January 2008 and now I get to deal with this.

The roofer I'm going to use has already roofed a barn I built and did a great job. His man hand nails the shingles in lieu of a gun.:thumbsup:


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Nothing wrong with a nail gun, just have to know how to use it.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Nothing wrong with a nail gun, just have to know how to use it.


Agreed, but the typical roofing crews that I've see around here...........!

My trusted roofer and I talked about the guns and here is why he doesn't like them. You may have part of a roof in the sun and parts of the roof in the shade. The shingles are therefore relatively soft and hard in places. The gun may work fine (be set properly for hard) and then overdrive the nail where the shingle is softer. Always adjusting the gun which presents a problem when you have a kid that is just thinking about "beer30". Also, you are constantly driving nails in hard and soft area of the wood roof decking. Hand nailing gives much better control is what he likes about it. I have to say that I like that also.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Your pics amaze me…………..it takes just as much effort (in your case anyway) to do it wrong so why not do it right and be done with it? Like Joe said, the instructions are on EACH bundle of shingles. There's just no excuse for doing it wrong like that roofer did. I've done several roofs as a DIYer and I always read the instructions so as not to void a warranty. So sorry this happened to you……..it's just not right.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Judging by the last picture, the nail placement may be too high; 5-3/4"----6-1/4" up from bottom of shingle, *did you measure them? 
*
The nail head size looks small in the picture, *did you measure them? 
*
" FASTENERS: Use only zinc-coated steel or aluminum, 10-12 gauge, barbed, deformed, or smooth shank roofing nails with heads 3/8" (10 mm) to 7/16" (12 mm) in diameter. Fasteners should be long enough to penetrate at least 3/4" (19 mm) into wood decks or just through the plywood decks. Fasteners must be driven flush with the surface of the shingle. Overdriving will damage the shingle. Raised fasteners will interfere with the sealing of the shingles and can back out" 



IMHO, they appear to be set too deep for which there is no excuse as don't most roofing guns limit height of pin to set depth from a surface; hard or soft makes no difference? Either the depth adjustment wasn't set/working/missing with air pressure set too high.

https://ams.confex.com/ams/29Hurricanes/techprogram/paper_167533.htm


Gary


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Is the BBB the place to go for a settlement?

I would think small claims court would be the proper spot---I don't think the BBB has any legal powers what so ever.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Gary in WA said:


> Judging by the last picture, the nail placement may be too high; 5-3/4"----6-1/4" up from bottom of shingle, *did you measure them? *
> 
> The nail head size looks small in the picture, *did you measure them? *
> 
> ...


 Gary, when the nails are placed high, they always go through the shingle since there is nothing,(the other shingle), below to give them the support and backing they need to do their job. Failure is a given.

reteng, I'm sorry for your loss and having to get it done again.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

All the BBB can do is write the guy a letter and ask them to fix it.
If he does not reply or come up with a solution a notation is made in there file that the public can see.
In VA if the person is licensed you can file a complaint with the board of contractors.
They have the power to pull there license if need be.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks, Tinner. I was referring to the 3rd picture down on the previous page of the nails showing proper spacing; going through *on the top edge* (not above- air nailing) of the under-lying shingle, as pictured in three different nails where shingle is missing... is that not correct? 

Gary


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Gary, they were high enough to hit the void caused by the underlying ply of shingle they were supposed to catch. Then, too few nails overall added to the issue.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

BTW, "Clean the ducting in the last six months? 17,000 dryer fires annually!"
My neighbor's dryer, plugged in, but not in use, no vent isses, self destructed and burnt his house recently. 90% loss.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

oh'mike said:


> Is the BBB the place to go for a settlement?
> 
> I would think small claims court would be the proper spot---I don't think the BBB has any legal powers what so ever.


I agree with Mike. I'd contact the rep for GAF and see if they would come look at your roof and let you know if their product was installed per their instructions. After all they are the experts where their product is concerned.

Smalls claims court is where you'd want to go in my opinion (not a legal one). The BBB would only have a little pull if the previous "roofer" was a member of the BBB, otherwise their letter would have the same effect as one from myself.

Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Okay, I'm back.

I'll try to address the questions added to this thread.

Yes the photos show the nails to high on the shingles. They also show nails missing. The finger you see in the photo is a roofer from a certified roofing company in Springfield that came out to fix this blow off. He is exposing the fact that the shingle below has no nails where it should. These photos were taken in the Spring of 2012.

As far as the nail heads being small, I think the nails are fine. Head diameter and length look okay. A lot of them were overdriven though. The nail heads that look small in the photo are overdriven.

There was a time that I thought I had a shingle sealing problem. I submitted a claim to GAF in which I had to send several shingles from this blow off along with photos. I wanted GAF to re-roof my house (real wishful thinking!) The roofers that took the photos for me that day provided me several shingles to choose from. I sent the best shingles I could find with nail closer to the nailing strip with the hope that they would give me a little slack in the nailing distance. This had been done in the past according to the certified installer that I talked too about the problem.

Well, as I expected, GAF denied the claim of course when they saw the photos. Here is something of interest to me at the time. The certified installer told me that every shingle has information in/on it to tell the manufacturer which batch it came from during the manufacturing process. The look at the batch information and check the history to see if there have been any complaints. They also claim to have done a laboratory analysis on the shingle (not sure I believe that).

As far as filing a claim in small claims court I think I'm SOL on that. Too much time has gone by. The shingles have been on my roof for 5 years 8 months now.

Here is why I went to BBB. I know the roofer has an "A" rating with the BBB. I want to expose him for what he is. A man with little integrity. I called him several times from the beginning of my problems but he would never answer his phone and wouldn't answer my voice mail messages. These blow off episodes have happened 2 or 3 times a year every year since the roof was installed. I have had 3 different roofing companies on the roof plus myself multiple times repairing blow offs.

I just found out the other day from the BBB that he is required to address the problem. This complaint, if he doesn't come forward, will go into mediation or arbitration, both are legally binding. I read that on BBB site. I didn't know about this when I filed the complaint. I'm trying to get my ducks in row just in case. That is why I asked the questions about the high nailing.

I have time against me, but I have photo evidence plus I can provide receipts from three different roofing companies that have repaired the roof. And I have a letter from GAF saying the shingles are nailed high.

In hindsight, I should have addressed this a long time ago, but I mistakenly thought the problem was spotty and once I fixed all of the problem areas I could live in peace. But they continue to show up 2 or 3 times a year when the wind blows hard enough to expose new problems. I don't like getting on the roof. Its steep and I don't feel comfortable doing it, although I'm the one who has gone up there more than anybody. I even purchased a foam wedge from a local roofing supply company to help me from slipping. Getting roofers out to my house is difficult after a storm. I'm 35 miles from Springfield and they like to stay close to home and serve there other customers before outlying areas. That's the way it seems to me anyway.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

joecaption said:


> All the BBB can do is write the guy a letter and ask them to fix it.
> If he does not reply or come up with a solution a notation is made in there file that the public can see.
> In VA if the person is licensed you can file a complaint with the board of contractors.
> They have the power to pull there license if need be.


Not sure this roofer is even licensed. This is the ozarks! Real different down here. Did you see the movie "Winters Bone"?  That was filmed not far from here. I'm from Kansas City where the roofers are probably all licensed and live by a set of rules. I'm a hands on type of guy and capable of repairing the roof if I had too. I can't do the entire re-roof job though. I told this roofer "he is a poor excuse for a contractor". That was by a phone text message one night after he refused to return my call. That got his attention and he called me immediately wanting to know who I am. He denied he put the roof on my house and I told him "I have proof". He gave me his email and I sent him his company invoice showing my address and 58 squares of shingles installed. He told me on the phone that if his company installed the shingles "he would see what he could do for me." I never heard from him again. I have email messages with attachments that I sent to him with the photos and GAF denial letter.

This guy doesn't even own a shop that I can find. His address is nothing more than a post office box at a Mailbox business in Springfield. He lives in a nice house in town in a purely residential area. Every search that I do just shows him as the owner of the company with 1 or 2 employees.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> IMHO, they appear to be set too deep for which there is no excuse as don't most roofing guns limit height of pin to set depth from a surface; hard or soft makes no difference? Either the depth adjustment wasn't set/working/missing with air pressure set too high.
> 
> Gary


I have to admit that I've never used a roofing gun and I don't know how the adjustments work. I did know about setting the air pressure.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

I found another photo I took during another failure. I wish that I had taken photos every time, but when it's raining and blowing all you can think about is getting the problem solved asap.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

You put your life in God's hands going up on your roof like you have!!! One shingle lets loose and down you go. What a piss poor contractor……..couldn't even answer his phone to address the problem. He should be taken out and……_______ _______!!!


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

You are witnessing a guy with too much time on his hands!:whistling2: I just keep posting...............

I want to vent about something. I tried to get good material from GAF about high nailing to use in case of arbitration. I sent an email to GAF Technical Service department explaining my problem and asking them the same two questions that I asked here.

Here is my email to them:

*I have a GAF Timberline HD Prestique 30 roof on a home that was built in Spring 2008. The roof size is approximately 5800 square feet with 2000 square feet that is continually failing 2 to 3 times a year when the wind blows anywhere from 30 to 50 mph. Groups of shingles are lifting with some shingles eventually coming off the roof.

I submitted a claim to GAF in 2012 for shingle failure and the claim was denied because of improper installation. I am not disputing the denial of claim from GAF.

I do have a complaint with my local BBB against the roofer who has not been cooperative.

I do need some information from GAF to help me present my case if I have to go into arbitration.

The portion of my roof that continually fails is facing west. That means that it sees most of the higher wind speeds throughout the year. I have never had a problem with the roof sections that face north, east or south.

The portion of my roofing that fails was consistently nailed above the nailing strip. That means that a lot of shingles only have half of the required 8 nails they should have had.

Here is the heart of my questions:

1. If a shingle is nailed above the nailing strip and goes through one layer only of the laminated shingle, is it more likely that the shingle will have more difficulty sealing properly or not at all?

It is my reasoning that the nail would not pull the shingle down with the same force that it would have going through two layers of shingle, plus the fact that the shingle below is creating a void between the top shingle and the roof surface. When the nail is driven down it stretches/tears the shingle on the downhill side of the nail head. This would be similar with over-driving the nail. I hope this makes sense to who ever is reading this!


2. If the shingle is nailed above the nailing strip can normal winds eventually work the shingle enough to break the seal.

My thought about this situation is wind can work its way under any shingle and create an upward force even is a shingle has sealed properly. A buffeting action plus the pressure can cause the shingle to tear at the nail head which in turn could cause the seal to break and the shingle to lift.

If you have any information, that is, testing or field experience etc. that GAF has done in that area of installation that would help me please send it to me.

I will be grateful to have any definitive information about this. I'm just looking for factual information.

If "Technical Service" is unable to help me please direct me to someone that can. I am attaching information about my claim and photos. 
*

I sent the same photos to them that I posted here.

Here is what I got back from GAF Technical Services

*Dear Jim,

Timberline shingles nailed above the nail line will delaminate and the bottom part will slide off the roof whether it is sealed or not.*

This is the best they can do??? Really? In fact it doesn't even make sense to me. If the bottom part of the shingle is sealed how can it slide off? In all of the failures I've had to date, none of the shingles have delaminated. Totally worthless information in my case.

This is why I ended up at this site.


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

Was this an insurance job or a job paid out of pocket?


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

ParagonEx said:


> Was this an insurance job or a job paid out of pocket?


This was a house that was totally rebuilt from the foundation up after being destroyed by a tornado. Insurance paid that cost.


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## packer_rich (Jan 16, 2011)

Well, if you have too much time on your hands, and you know he run's the business out of his house, you can picket him. You would want to check the local rules, bur here, if someone runs his business from his home, that is the same as picketing his office, which is legal. Set up an informational picket, print some handout's showing the problem, and stand in front of his house. When his neighbors stop to ask what is happening, just calmly explain what your complaint is and that he will not respond to your requests for repair. 
I would call the local police first just to inform them of what your doing.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I doubt GAF wants any part of this as it is an application error. No nails in a shingle and only one set of holes in a shingle look pretty bad. The rake picture just supplied also shows no shingles under the rake edge (exposed white rake trim board) as per directions and you have no "kick-out" flashing at the porch soffit to divert water into the gutter there; http://www.finehomebuilding.com/ite...-flash-troublesome-roof-to-wall-intersections

Try to get that fixed when someone adds more nails under each course in place of the over-driven ones and extra ones for the wind-swept areas along with dabs of adhesive as suggested in application directions.

Gary


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Picket him? Now what's that going to do?
Two wrongs do not make a right.


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> I doubt GAF wants any part of this as it is an application error. No nails in a shingle and only one set of holes in a shingle look pretty bad. The rake picture just supplied also shows no shingles under the rake edge (exposed white rake trim board) as per directions and you have no "kick-out" flashing at the porch soffit to divert water into the gutter there; http://www.finehomebuilding.com/ite...-flash-troublesome-roof-to-wall-intersections
> 
> Try to get that fixed when someone adds more nails under each course in place of the over-driven ones and extra ones for the wind-swept areas along with dabs of adhesive as suggested in application directions.
> 
> Gary


Gary, I'ved looked at the GAF instructions that were pointed out in an earlier post and I think the drip edge is installed correctly in my case. The drip edge goes on top of the underlayment, but below the shingles. That is what I see anyway. What the roofer did not do that would have come in handy are dabs of adhesive under each shingle along the rake. We are not in what I would call a high wind area (like western Kansas!) but I do see more wind in my small subdivision then most houses around here. We sit a little higher and this subdivision has no trees yet. It used to be a horse pasture.

As far as the "kick out" flashing, that would have been nice to have but I think it would be difficult to install correctly now with the siding already in place. That's cement board siding.

As far as adding nails under each course of shingles, that won't be necessary because I'm having the roof stripped and redone in the area that has given me trouble.


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## packer_rich (Jan 16, 2011)

joecaption said:


> Picket him? Now what's that going to do?
> Two wrongs do not make a right.


It will force him to respond to the OP's complaints. Maybe some embarrassment will provide some incentive to resolve the problem. 
Also, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but, depending on local laws, picketing isn't wrong. It's his right.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

From page 5; "Place first course of shingles *1/4" – 3/4" (6–19 mm)over eave and rake* edges, covering starter courseoverhang, to provide drip edge."
Bold is mine, you can see your rake flashing/white trim is exposed- no shingle lap. With wind pushing rain along the surface, water will get to your underlayment, past the first line of defense....

Gary


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## reteng (Dec 11, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> From page 5; "Place first course of shingles *1/4" – 3/4" (6–19 mm)over eave and rake* edges, covering starter courseoverhang, to provide drip edge."
> Bold is mine, you can see your rake flashing/white trim is exposed- no shingle lap. With wind pushing rain along the surface, water will get to your underlayment, past the first line of defense....
> 
> Gary


Your're right, they could have done a better job there.


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