# High-efficiency, smart, washing machine discussion



## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

We just got our first "smart" washer a month or so ago and we're very disappointed. I'd like to hear about others and their experience and which washers don't have these issues since we need one soon for another home.

We bought this LG washer: https://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-WT7200CW-top-load-washer










Our old washer was a regular agitator washer. It was simple, took about 45 minutes to do a load and gave us all the control we needed.

The new washer takes about 90 minutes to over 3 hours, effectively, to do a load and requires near constant oversight to do its job.

It's so "smart" that it decides the size of the load and how much water to use. It never puts enough water to fully submerge the load. You can set a mode to use additional water and that's still not enough so you have to come set it again after it starts washing to add even more water but, eventually and long before the tub is reasonably full, it refuses to let you add more water. I figured out a work around for the wash cycle to actually start the load, then 15 minutes in I turn the washer off and then restart it. Now it's got 4 inches of water weight in it and when it senses how much water it thinks it's got 50 pounds of clothes so it gives half a tub full of water... 

Problem is, you have to catch it again at the start of the rinse cycle to get the clothes rinsed or, if you miss it, run a cycle again without soap just to rinse... and stand over it to make sure you get enough water.

Another issue is that it has no agitator. That was one of the big drivers for us in choosing this washer, thinking the "smarts" would give good motion and we'd get clean clothes and much greater capacity. Problem is, without the agitator, you don't get good water movement. Oh, it has some very awesome displays of fluid dynamics with water actually pinned to the side of the tub while the bottom center is dry as it rotates fast with a load of water... But what you need to clean clothes is movement of water over the clothes. Most of the motion in this washer the water, tub, and clothes all move together so there's no relative difference of motion between them. When they're all moving exactly together it may as well not be moving at all; it could as well be sitting still soaking.

Oh, and it doesn't have all the features it claims. You have to buy those separately, after the fact, and not with cash. Many of the modes and features are only available if you install the LG app which actually requires access to your phone, your microphone, your pictures, your location, etc... I'm not selling my soul to get a spin-only cycle.

So, anyone want to jump in on the smart-washer gripe session or at least share their experience with modern, smart, top-loading washers (we don't have the extra depth for a front loader) that don't have these issues?


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## schreibdave (Jun 12, 2016)

LOL. I'm 52 years old. Over the last 25 years I've owned 5 homes and rented 2 others. One Maytag washer served the first 23 years and moved in and out of 6 homes with us. That machine might have needed a service call once - but I'm not sure. We sold it with the last house where it still serves happily. I suspect it will last about forever.

Our current house has a new washer and dryer. Not sure how "smart" they are but they do all sorts of neat and useless tricks. No problems with them yet but the sales guy at the appliance store confirmed that these are now basically disposable. It'll likely be cheaper to replace it when the electronics act up then it will be to fix it.

Good luck


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Yeah, this washer replaced one that was 16 years old - young for a washer as the one before that lasted over 20 years. The problem is that the cheaper ones are still computer controlled. No more mechanical timer mechanisms that last forever - even if they made a mechanical one it would be made out of pot metal or plastic... like my 2010 Silverado with so much cracked plastic on the dash that the rattles will drive me nuts.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

I bought this house about 3 1/2 years ago and it came with a HE washer and matching dryer. The next time I change the settings on either one will be the first time - they're still set the way the previous owner did her last load of laundry in the house.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

dalepres said:


> It's so "smart" that it decides the size of the load and how much water to use. It never puts enough water to fully submerge the load.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Have you ever actually left the washer to do its thing, with the "limited" water it uses? Let it wash and then look at the clothes? Some devices have various stages, and you may have to wait for additional water or aggregation. I've seen people stop things like this at the very beginning, when they don't believe it'll work, and have never actually let it do its thing, causing it to never actually work. If you're still unsatisfied, have you called LG to ask about it? I'm curious what they say. 

As for the app part, on newer versions of Android give you the option to deny those privileges to the app. It's denied by default and it must ask for your permission. It's also changeable after the fact. I can't say much about iOS stuff, and other options. I don't use any products that use anything else, haven't for a fairly long time. 

Cheers!


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## chiraldude (Nov 16, 2013)

Can't speak for your LG but I have a Maytag Bravos washer. This was inherited from the previous home owner. It also has the minimal agitator. 
I have been using it for over a year now and it seems to be getting clothes clean. From what I have read about these machines, the low water level is by design and the manufacturers assert that the cloths do not need to be submerged to get clean. One thing these machines do is pump and spray the soapy water on the cloths while they are being agitated. The minimal agitator does move the cloths around enough (barely). 

For me, top loaders should be banned. This is a concept from the 1950's! The only reason they exist is that people are resistant to change and want something that looks like what their parents had. Front loaders are the way to go. They get clothes clean by dropping them into the soapy water. Front loaders have been around for decades and are proven technology. 

I only wish these things could be made more durable. My LG front loader had the main board go bad. Easy to fix but cost $300 for the part. Had to replace the main bearing and water pump on the Maytag this year. The bearing replacement was challenging to say the least.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

I've got LG HE front loaders that use minimal water and they work awesome despite not "fully submerging" the clothes at any point.

The only thing I don't like about my washer is the thing shakes the heck out of the house during the spin cycles. I end up picking one for every load; A) think there's another big earthquake OR B) spend a bit more on nat gas to dry the load longer. (I usually go with B though no one else in the house does.)


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Mystriss said:


> I've got LG HE front loaders that use minimal water and they work awesome despite not "fully submerging" the clothes at any point.
> 
> The only thing I don't like about my washer is the thing shakes the heck out of the house during the spin cycles. I end up picking one for every load; A) think there's another big earthquake OR B) spend a bit more on nat gas to dry the load longer. (I usually go with B though no one else in the house does.)


Try adjusting the feet so that it cannot rock. They are sensitive to that. 

Cheers!


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Try adjusting the feet so that it cannot rock. They are sensitive to that.
> 
> Cheers!


We've adjusted them a number of times. I think it's just because the house is made to shake (for the quakes) We're going to move the washer into the garage as soon as we have time between other projects (hopefully this summer.)


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

We got a smart whirlpool last summer...large tub, no agitator, holds about
50 percent more clothes than our old agitator. It gets the clothes very clean.

Truthfully, I didn’t think it would get the clothes as clean because of the 
missing agitator, but it does! We use the normal wash cycle.

We’re happy with this machine.


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## chiraldude (Nov 16, 2013)

Mystriss said:


> We've adjusted them a number of times. I think it's just because the house is made to shake (for the quakes) We're going to move the washer into the garage as soon as we have time between other projects (hopefully this summer.)


That is the only drawback to front loaders. They vibrate up and down instead of side to side so they have to be placed on a rock solid floor. If not you will need to do some creative bracing or vibration damping.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

chiraldude said:


> That is the only drawback to front loaders. They vibrate up and down instead of side to side so they have to be placed on a rock solid floor. If not you will need to do some creative bracing or vibration damping.


Yeah we're going to be putting it on an over built deck on the cement slab in the garage so it'll stay put - and my husband got "decoupler" what's it's that go under the feet as well. It would have gone into the garage last weekend (or at least the plumbing, nat. gas, and vent would have been installed,) but I changed my mind on where I want them put heh


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## chiraldude (Nov 16, 2013)

Ok, 2 drawbacks. Most people will want to put a front loader on a platform or pedestal. Bending over to pull stuff out is not so good for your back. I had mine on a 12" "overbuilt" platform. Didn't use decouplers.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

chiraldude said:


> Ok, 2 drawbacks. Most people will want to put a front loader on a platform or pedestal. Bending over to pull stuff out is not so good for your back. I had mine on a 12" "overbuilt" platform. Didn't use decouplers.


Having them on pedestals is way better than not IMO. The pedestals they came with didn't put the washer/dryer up high enough for me (I'm pretty tall.) We're going to have them up another 6" in the garage so I [hopefully] won't have to bend over to pull clothes out anymore.


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

I had a Kenmore HE front load washer for a few years. Hated it because the clothes never got really clean and didn't smell fresh after washing. It used very little water though, but what's the point of water savings if the clothes weren't clean after washing? They even need "washing machine cleaner" cause the front loaders have a tendency to get stinky after awhile. No thanks. 

Got rid of it and got a SpeedQueen top load model. Clothes are now clean and smell good too, plus it has a 7 year warranty.


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## chiraldude (Nov 16, 2013)

Dave Sal said:


> I had a Kenmore HE front load washer for a few years. Hated it because the clothes never got really clean and didn't smell fresh after washing. It used very little water thsough, but what's the point of water savings if the clothes weren't clean after washing? They even need "washing machine cleaner" cause the front loaders have a tendency to get stinky after awhile. No thanks.
> 
> Got rid of it and got a SpeedQueen top load model. Clothes are now clean and smell good too, plus it has a 7 year warranty.


No surprise. Kenmore is low end. Never had issues with cleaning. As for smell, I would run a cup of bleach and hot water on an empty load ever couple of months to prevent the moldy smell. Also make sure the door stays open when not in use.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Dave Sal said:


> I had a Kenmore HE front load washer for a few years. Hated it because the clothes never got really clean and didn't smell fresh after washing. It used very little water though, but what's the point of water savings if the clothes weren't clean after washing? They even need "washing machine cleaner" cause the front loaders have a tendency to get stinky after awhile. No thanks.
> 
> Got rid of it and got a SpeedQueen top load model. Clothes are now clean and smell good too, plus it has a 7 year warranty.


I haven't had that problem with my Samsung front load. Interesting. Must be a difference between models. 

Cheers!


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

chiraldude said:


> Can't speak for your LG but I have a Maytag Bravos washer. This was inherited from the previous home owner. It also has the minimal agitator.
> I have been using it for over a year now and it seems to be getting clothes clean. From what I have read about these machines, the low water level is by design and the manufacturers assert that the cloths do not need to be submerged to get clean. One thing these machines do is pump and spray the soapy water on the cloths while they are being agitated. The minimal agitator does move the cloths around enough (barely).
> 
> For me, top loaders should be banned. This is a concept from the 1950's! The only reason they exist is that people are resistant to change and want something that looks like what their parents had. Front loaders are the way to go. They get clothes clean by dropping them into the soapy water. Front loaders have been around for decades and are proven technology.
> ...



Why ban them? Are they unsafe? Do they injure puppies? I thought they represented the free marketplace in action. If nobody bought them, they wouldn't make them.
Some small laundry rooms, like mine, don't easily accommodate a front loader. Top loaders are also cheaper, not by as much as they used to be but generally still cheaper for comparative specs. Reviews being equal, I would buy another top loader primarily because it is cheaper. It's just laundry folks.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

chiraldude said:


> That is the only drawback to front loaders. They vibrate up and down instead of side to side so they have to be placed on a rock solid floor. If not you will need to do some creative bracing or vibration damping.


We had a front loader in the 70's. It was a great washer but very heavy because it had concrete blocks built into it to keep it on the ground during spin cycles.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

lenaitch said:


> Why ban them? Are they unsafe? Do they injure puppies? I thought they represented the free marketplace in action. If nobody bought them, they wouldn't make them.
> Some small laundry rooms, like mine, don't easily accommodate a front loader. Top loaders are also cheaper, not by as much as they used to be but generally still cheaper for comparative specs. Reviews being equal, I would buy another top loader primarily because it is cheaper. It's just laundry folks.


We got the toploader for that reason: our laundry room wouldn't fit a front loader. I am able to get to the bottom of this washer by an inch or so... Any shorter and I'd have to use a stool. My wife could never use this - but that's ok since I do the laundry.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

supers05 said:


> Have you ever actually left the washer to do its thing, with the "limited" water it uses? Let it wash and then look at the clothes? Some devices have various stages, and you may have to wait for additional water or aggregation. I've seen people stop things like this at the very beginning, when they don't believe it'll work, and have never actually let it do its thing, causing it to never actually work. If you're still unsatisfied, have you called LG to ask about it? I'm curious what they say.
> 
> As for the app part, on newer versions of Android give you the option to deny those privileges to the app. It's denied by default and it must ask for your permission. It's also changeable after the fact. I can't say much about iOS stuff, and other options. I don't use any products that use anything else, haven't for a fairly long time.
> 
> Cheers!


So here's my _theory_ on how a washer works. This new LG actually gets stains out very well and whites are very white... So far so good.

But when you wash clothes, the dirt all comes out into the water and the clothes are in dirty water - sum of water, fabric, and dirt didn't change. Then the water passes right back through the clothes during spin. So a washing machine doesn't really get your clothes clean; it simply dilutes the dirt making your clothes less dirty. (remember, just my theory; I'm not a clothes scientist)

It seems to me that the key to getting them less-dirty is diluting the dirt in more water rather than in less. 

I washed a very small load of delicates last night that couldn't go in the dryer so the wife had me put liquid fabric softener in. WHen the load was completed, including extra rinse, there were gobs of fabric softener on top of the clothes and on the wall of the tub. And I only put about a 1/4 cup in the dispenser. I washed them again, going through all of the hacks I have to do in order to get a load of water, and got them rinsed out better.

I know I'm probably just paranoid  but I almost always end up running each load through a second time just to make sure the clothes are rinsed well.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

dalepres said:


> So here's my _theory_ on how a washer works. This new LG actually gets stains out very well and whites are very white... So far so good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it's a design flaw in that model. 

Now if the fabric softener is buoyant in water, it may never rise very well using this method, and simply requires plenty of dilution. You should consult the manual about how much softener you should use though, as it is usually much reduced compared to a conventional washer. 

I would hope that it would circulate the water either through a filter, or down the drain while adding a bit more. It very well could be a design flaw. We may be misunderstanding how it works. I do know that water is a decent solvent and quite a lot of materials will either stay dissolved or at least suspended within the water while the temperature doesn't drop or slow down. They could be using this to great advantage. 

I'd still like to hear what the manufacturer says about it. Is it something that we are misunderstanding, or something that they forgot. (of course they won't be so blunt about accepting the blame. You'll have to deduct that from their language and tone.) 

Cheers!


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

1/4 cup is way too much. You have to use less soap and softener. Think about it. If your old washer used 40 gallons of water and your new washer is using five gallons think about how much more soap and softener you are using then you need. The max lines in the soap dispenser are deceiving. If your water is real soft only a tablespoon or two is necessary. Any more will cause soap buildup in a machine. Particularly a problem in front loaders. I can’t tell you how many times we have seen on the same street where one person will have a stinky washer, moldy gasket and the other people have no issues. Then try and tell them they are using too much soap. Some listen but some don’t. Also some of the cheaper softeners don’t work well with the soap,dishes that siphon. You may have to switch brands. We have done their warranty work for at least 25 years. Can’t say the exact amount of time. Was Hampton bay and gold star at one point. Personally I really like their front loaders. You are not the only one to complain about the lack of water. Any machine that is energy star rated is only allowed to use so much water so the manufacturers have to find creative ways to clean the clothes and meet the requirements.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

dalepres said:


> So here's my _theory_ on how a washer works. This new LG actually gets stains out very well and whites are very white... So far so good.
> 
> But when you wash clothes, the dirt all comes out into the water and the clothes are in dirty water - sum of water, fabric, and dirt didn't change. Then the water passes right back through the clothes during spin. So a washing machine doesn't really get your clothes clean; it simply dilutes the dirt making your clothes less dirty. (remember, just my theory; I'm not a clothes scientist)
> 
> ...


As a non-washer expert I'm keen to take up your theory of the inner secrets of washing machines. In which case, though, I'd posit that a front loader would be better because it runs the water more directly through the clothes during the spray cycle and drains it off more like a dishwasher - rather than letting the clothes "soak" in the dirty water as a top loader does.

Also, yeah, 1/4 cup of softner is way, way too much. You're only supposed to use a cap-full :vs_laugh:


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Mystriss said:


> As a non-washer expert I'm keen to take up your theory of the inner secrets of washing machines. In which case, though, I'd posit that a front loader would be better because it runs the water more directly through the clothes during the spray cycle and drains it off more like a dishwasher - rather than letting the clothes "soak" in the dirty water as a top loader does.
> 
> Also, yeah, 1/4 cup of softner is way, way too much. You're only supposed to use a cap-full :vs_laugh:


Ok, I accept responsibility for using too much fabric softener . I didn't fill the dispenser nearly to the max line but considering that the All Free-and-Clear bottle said 0.8 oz for a regular load, and given that this was a very small load and the washer uses so little washer, it was certainly too much.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

dalepres said:


> Ok, I accept responsibility for using too much fabric softener . I didn't fill the dispenser nearly to the max line but considering that the All Free-and-Clear bottle said 0.8 oz for a regular load, and given that this was a very small load and the washer uses so little washer, it was certainly too much.


Lol. 1/4 cup is 2 fl.oz. just a hair too much. [emoji1787]

Cheers!


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## snic (Sep 16, 2018)

dalepres said:


> But when you wash clothes, the dirt all comes out into the water and the clothes are in dirty water - sum of water, fabric, and dirt didn't change. Then the water passes right back through the clothes during spin. So a washing machine doesn't really get your clothes clean; it simply dilutes the dirt making your clothes less dirty. (remember, just my theory; I'm not a clothes scientist)
> 
> It seems to me that the key to getting them less-dirty is diluting the dirt in more water rather than in less.


I'm not a "clothes scientist" either, but, being a different kind of scientist, I have a theory as to how modern washing machines can get clothes clean using very little water.

First, you're certainly correct that _one way_ to get clothes clean is to dunk them in a large amount of water, and then agitate them to loosen the the dirt, which will cause the dirt to be diluted into the water. (Actually, lots of dirt isn't actually soluble in water, so technically it's not necessarily getting diluted - but particulates are getting dispersed into the water, so the idea is the same: the more water, the lower the concentration of dirt and dirt particles in the water.)

However, another way to do this is to agitate the clothes in a tiny amount of water, which will result in a high concentration of dirt in the water. Then you drain off that water and do it again a few times. Each time you do it, you dilute the dirt by several fold. So, if you do it right, even though you have to go through several cycles, you end up using less water than just one wash cycle with a large amount of water, but getting the clothes just as clean.

Now, my own real world experience with an LG front loader was that my sweaty clothes continued to smell after I washed them. Fortunately, my front loader has a "sanitary" setting, which means it will use extremely hot water. That has worked reasonably well to kill the bacteria that cause the smell. It will take longer than the regular setting, but that's fine.

Finally, with regard to the washer getting musty odors - as someone else says, just leave the door open so it can dry when you're not using it. I never had a problem.


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

Our LG washer is fantastic and best washer I have used over the past 50 years. I make use of its soak setting for some clothes and also the bulk setting for something like a comforter or its Water Plus setting to have more water automatically added. 

How long the wash cycle is depends on the load. For a small load it is 45 minutes and naturally longer with a full load or the Soak setting or Heavy dirt setting. 

It is super quiet and so we can run it anytime and I can tell from the digital readout exactly how many minutes it will take to finish. 

After two years of use I would not hesitate to buy another identical one in the future or recommend it to others.
Important to use the new type of detergent with these new washers.


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