# Rat or Mouse (ID help) and remediation order?



## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

It will help to say if you're in the country and what general area.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> It will help to say if you're in the country and what general area.


Ah thanks. Will update but this is in Southern California - Orange County


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Most mice I've seen in my house's traps have a body about 1.5-2" long (not including tail).
From there, without a ruler in the pics, I'd say mouse.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

The deer mouse has a white belly. Those in your photos don't.
UC is a great resource in California.






Deer Mouse / Home and Landscape / UC Statewide IPM Program (UC IPM)







ipm.ucanr.edu





One thing I noticed under Transmission was that they don't think the virus lives more than a week. So, if there are no new mice,as evidenced by trapping, the Hantavirusvirus should die out within a week. But, they don't look like deer mice, imo. There are a lot of mice trappers on this site. hopefully, they will comment.






Transmission | Hantavirus | DHCPP | CDC







www.cdc.gov





Sometimes Pest Experts will come by.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

bob22 said:


> Most mice I've seen in my house's traps have a body about 1.5-2" long (not including tail).
> From there, without a ruler in the pics, I'd say mouse.


Thanks. The body of these were probably closer to 3-4" IIRC. 2" would be on the small side for these


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> View attachment 668547
> 
> 
> The deer mouse has a white belly. Those in your photos don't.
> ...


Thanks. The one at the bottom of this pic appears to have a whitish belly:









Although, I've read that both roof and Norway rats can also have white bellies. The rat that I caught in a trap was one or the other...not sure

















I've heard you generally shouldn't expect to find both mice and rats in the same area though - mice are terrified of rats I guess? If this is true and these guys died during fumigation, where I trapped the rat above the night before, I would think that maybe those are baby/juvenile rats then? The yellow thing under the dishwasher was a mummified rat BTW: I think I saw a couple babies along with it, so that was much older. These look slightly fresh - again, not sure if they're a product of fumigation or not. We fumigated on 10/2 - so 10 days up to opening the toekick yesterday


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I've been trying to find out if all deer mice have white tails. I haven't been able to find the info, yet.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> I've been trying to find out if all deer mice have white tails. I haven't been able to find the info, yet.


Ah, good point... per google:

"They weigh 15 to 32 grams. Deer mice are named for their fur's striking similarity to the coloration of deer fur. Their grayish-brown bodies gradually whiten at the belly and legs. The most telling characteristic is their bicolored tail which *is dark and bottom is light*."

IIRC, I think the tails on these were all dark. Of course, I don't know what happens when the bodies start decaying like that either... I wonder if anyone out there can just tell, by looking at the images, if these rodents have been dead for over a week, etc. If so then I'll feel more relieved I suppose.

Can hantavirus remain 'dormant' in feces for a long time and then get 'reactivated' if you start stirring up the nesting/droppings without spraying it down first? Or is that more a concern with fresh/recently active nests and droppings?


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

From the UC IPM link - "Adult deer mouse. Note the large ears and eyes and the white underside of the body and tail—all distinguishing characteristics between the deer mouse and house mouse."


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Hantavirus is Airborne. There was no mention of it living longer in feces. feces have enzymes.

The rounder mice look more recently killed. You can see how the body sinks while decomposing in the other almost unidentifiable bodies. First it would fill up with gas then it would sink. Sorry to be so graphic.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> Hantavirus is Airborne. There was no mention of it living longer in feces. feces have enzymes.
> 
> The rounder mice look more recently killed. You can see how the body sinks while decomposing in the other almost unidentifiable bodies. First it would fill up with gas then it would sink. Sorry to be so graphic.


Makes sense... yea the two top ones look older - their bodies were sunk-in as you describe. The bottom one showing the white underbelly looks fresher. At least, when I moved it there was liquid under it. So I'm thinking that one might have been killed during fumigation.

I tried to spray down the bedding as much as I could before moving it around. I was spray/stir/spray/stir etc to saturate. I don't know if I let it sit long enough after spraying though before moving it into a trash bag. We were wearing masks with the door and window open along with air purifier(s) and the vent running on high.

As far as this being a deer mice, still tough to tell from the decomposing bodies. The tails look all black or very dark to me though. Here's a close-up:


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Would you guys suggest moving forward and just having the cabinets demoed so the contractor can clear everything out? Then we either go in and spray everything down and try to hire someone to come in and clean-up the mess? Or should we defer this all to next week when we can schedule/line things up a little more?


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## OldhousePHL (Sep 19, 2021)

jplee3 said:


> Would you guys suggest moving forward and just having the cabinets demoed so the contractor can clear everything out? Then we either go in and spray everything down and try to hire someone to come in and clean-up the mess? Or should we defer this all to next week when we can schedule/line things up a little more?


Sorry about your nightmare week. Argh.
Does the contractor know about the mice mess? If not, I'd let him know immediately so he comes prepared. Although we've dealt with mice and their larger cousins, I'm not a professional so take my suggestions with a grain of salt. 

Anyone who's working on the cabinets should have a respirator/N95 mask, gloves, and preferably disposable tyvek suit - the ones at HD rip but you'll probably get 5 or 6 hours of work before this happens. Also disposable shoe coverings. I would seal off the work area as best as possible and plan out where the debris is going. Use the thickest contractor trash bags you can find. If you can manage it, toss brooms and dust pans after use.

Smile at the contractor and ask if he has ideas how the mice came in and how to prevent future visits. Don't be surprised if the contractor gives you a change order if he didn't factor the mice into his fee. Keep smiling


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

OldhousePHL said:


> Sorry about your nightmare week. Argh.
> Does the contractor know about the mice mess? If not, I'd let him know immediately so he comes prepared. Although we've dealt with mice and their larger cousins, I'm not a professional so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.
> 
> Anyone who's working on the cabinets should have a respirator/N95 mask, gloves, and preferably disposable tyvek suit - the ones at HD rip but you'll probably get 5 or 6 hours of work before this happens. Also disposable shoe coverings. I would seal off the work area as best as possible and plan out where the debris is going. Use the thickest contractor trash bags you can find. If you can manage it, toss brooms and dust pans after use.
> ...



I told him about it but he didn't seem too concerned. I bought a 10x25' roll of 3.5mil poly sheet for him to tape to seal off the kitchen and have some N95s and nitrile gloves. Not sure if they're planning to suit up and all that stuff. He seemed focused on just demo'ing the cabinets and salvaging the cabinet faces etc. I don't think they're going to deal with cleaning any of the rodent mess up as much as they are just getting the old cabinets out.... not sure. At this point I'm pretty lost and overwhelmed with what else to do.


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## OldhousePHL (Sep 19, 2021)

Great. Let him do the demo and then let the remediation company do their work. Try to stay out of it for now and see where you are after this. Hang in there.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

We're having them pull the cabinets out and salvage doors & faces right now. Remediation company will come out later this afternoon to get a scope of work. He was alluding to potential drywall removal too


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## OldhousePHL (Sep 19, 2021)

Removing drywall that appears to have absorbed stuff isn't crazy because it can smell horrible. Good news is you can see behind it and maybe this will help you find and close entries. If just a few inches are problematic they can cut across and repair shouldn't be big deal. The horizontal cut should go from mid-stud to mid-stud and ideally the line should be straight and level. If you agree to drywall removal ask (politely) how they do this. You want the repairs to easy to do. Might be a good idea to mark water pipes if they're in the area. Just in case make sure you know where your house water shut off is located.

Is there a stove in the kitchen? Did you check the oven and bottom broiler for mice? In the NE this is the first place they go. Hopefully not in CA or your set up is different. 

Take a deep breath and give yourself credit for what's already accomplished. Do you like cats?


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

OldhousePHL said:


> Removing drywall that appears to have absorbed stuff isn't crazy because it can smell horrible. Good news is you can see behind it and maybe this will help you find and close entries. If just a few inches are problematic they can cut across and repair shouldn't be big deal. The horizontal cut should go from mid-stud to mid-stud and ideally the line should be straight and level. If you agree to drywall removal ask (politely) how they do this. You want the repairs to easy to do. Might be a good idea to mark water pipes if they're in the area. Just in case make sure you know where your house water shut off is located.
> 
> Is there a stove in the kitchen? Did you check the oven and bottom broiler for mice? In the NE this is the first place they go. Hopefully not in CA or your set up is different.
> 
> Take a deep breath and give yourself credit for what's already accomplished. Do you like cats?


LOL, I'm starting to think cats might not be a bad idea. But we just put in new nice pile carpet so I'm a bit apprehensive about that too. Definitely can't leave cats outside due to coyotes. Unless I can domesticate a bobcat hahaha. 

I'll inquire with them about removing the drywall if it can't be cleaned up. The remediation company is coming later today to check things out too. They already removed the toe kick under the pantry and we found a bunch more nesting material



















I just sprayed a bunch of bleach in both cavities where the nesting is.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

jplee3 said:


> LOL, I'm starting to think cats might not be a bad idea. But we just put in new nice pile carpet so I'm a bit apprehensive about that too.


The secret is clean kitty litter. My cats don't go on new carpet.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> The secret is clean kitty litter. My cats don't go on new carpet.


Oh, I think we'd be concerned about them clawing at the carpet and ruining it that way


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

So this is what I observed behind the dishwasher (between the counter and top portion of drywall in the back):









I put a scope back there and I'm pretty sure I see droppings. I think this might be one of the entry points they had gotten in through. I'm not sure if we should open this up more or remove the entire section OR if we should just spray bleach and Natures Miracle (separately of course) back there and seal it up. I really don't want to have to do more demo than necessary. Hopefully the damage remediation company will be out today to assess and give a scope of work. The pest company is coming tomorrow to also look at the situation to see what's needed.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Does insurance pay for any of this?


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> Does insurance pay for any of this?


I doubt they would... we've already done a bulk of the cleanup at this point too. I'm deliberating whether to call or not too right now - if I open a claim not sure what happens to the premium. Thing is, the current insurance company has me on the hook for replacing a Zinsco panel too. Either way, I'm not sure if calling them to remediate could potentially make things worse as far as insurance premiums are concerned...


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

jplee3 said:


> Oh, I think we'd be concerned about them clawing at the carpet and ruining it that way


Cats can be taught not to claw. I never had any problem until the last house, but, I had a young feral cat who was part bobcat, I think! But, kittens can be taught, & even the feral cat now house cat was taught. And who knows if there was something under the carpet to claw.

The cats that are part exotic or wild are great ratters. I have two cats that catch things mid-air. Not my photo, but, I bet you wouldn't mind a furry buddy right now.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok so we just had the remediation company come out - the guy is expecting there to probably be more dead stuff behind the drywall based on us already finding dead ones under the cabinets  He was suggesting cutting drywall. Not sure how much it's going to cost but definitely into the thousands. To patch it back up I'm not sure but the guys who are installing the cabinets I think would also be able to patch it too. It's just that we're doing more demo and pushing our overall costs higher and higher as we go. I'm really not sure what to do at this point - should we really open more drywall? I guess we'll see what the pest company has to say tomorrow. 

The other area where there's a smaller hole, and perhaps this one was where mice got in:


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## OldhousePHL (Sep 19, 2021)

Take a deep breath you're okay, really  See what the pest folks say. Ask the contractor for price on (maybe) cutting the drywall out 12 inches or so above the floor in the area around the rodent doorway and repair of same. Unless your kitchen is HUGE or there's something I'm not seeing, the drywall work will not run to thousands of dollars. When the contractor levels up to install the cabinet base it might cover the hole? If there's a smell or an access issue for cleaning I'd remove drywall sparingly, i.e. no idiot with a sawzall. Finesse in removal = easier repair.

I'll be interested to know what the pest company says. In my area rats (shudder) can be a problem. What works here is to make reasonable repairs to discourage entry and good housekeeping to discourage interest. It's kind of like criminology 101: make your home or car harder to break into so they move on to easier targets. That said, when the weather gets cold we find one dead small mouse that the cats have gotten tired of playing with. I can live with this.

The key here is _reasonable_. See what the pest company recommends, patch obvious entries, keep food out of the lower cabinets, and maybe store items like rice and pasta in sealed plastic containers until you're comfortable with the situation.

I skimmed your earlier posts and you have my sympathy about the real estate market. It's so crazy here my friend lost a house last week to a bidder who offered $5K over ask and agreed to waive inspection. The house had vinyl siding over brick and the second floor deck was on posts sitting on the ground. No footers ...


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

OldhousePHL said:


> Take a deep breath you're okay, really  See what the pest folks say. Ask the contractor for price on (maybe) cutting the drywall out 12 inches or so above the floor in the area around the rodent doorway and repair of same. Unless your kitchen is HUGE or there's something I'm not seeing, the drywall work will not run to thousands of dollars. When the contractor levels up to install the cabinet base it might cover the hole? If there's a smell or an access issue for cleaning I'd remove drywall sparingly, i.e. no idiot with a sawzall. Finesse in removal = easier repair.
> 
> I'll be interested to know what the pest company says. In my area rats (shudder) can be a problem. What works here is to make reasonable repairs to discourage entry and good housekeeping to discourage interest. It's kind of like criminology 101: make your home or car harder to break into so they move on to easier targets. That said, when the weather gets cold we find one dead small mouse that the cats have gotten tired of playing with. I can live with this.
> 
> ...


It's really nuts. This house has good bones _I THINK_ but all these issues have made it such a discouraging experience even after closing on. 

The reason why the damage remediation company is charging that much is because they're doing all the additional cleaning/disinfecting/sanitization. But it sounds like bleach+water and Nature's Miracle can more or less do the same thing hahaha.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> Cats can be taught not to claw. I never had any problem until the last house, but, I had a young feral cat who was part bobcat, I think! But, kittens can be taught, & even the feral cat now house cat was taught. And who knows if there was something under the carpet to claw.
> 
> The cats that are part exotic or wild are great ratters. I have two cats that catch things mid-air. Not my photo, but, I bet you wouldn't mind a furry buddy right now.
> 
> View attachment 668672


You have me thinking... hahaha


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Fwiw, I think your trapped rodent is a rat from size.


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## OldhousePHL (Sep 19, 2021)

I think Bob22 may be correct. The OC county website should have a link to something like a department of vector control. See if they can help with identification. Hoping the pest control company was helpful.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

OldhousePHL said:


> I think Bob22 may be correct. The OC county website should have a link to something like a department of vector control. See if they can help with identification. Hoping the pest control company was helpful.


Pest control will be out later. I've contacted OC Vector control to schedule something but they've been slow to respond. One pest company I called said it has been really busy so I'm suspecting part of it is the invasion/expansion of the Aedes Mosquitoes. They have been really bad lately.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Quick update: pest control came out and identified at least one entry point through the garage - a little hole they chewed out between the concrete/foundation and the drywall to get inside. He suggested spray foam to seal it off. I may cram some steel wool inside and then spray foam it. There's also some trimming in the bottom corner on one side of the garage that was chewed through so that was likely the initial entry point.

As far as the mess in the kitchen, he was leaning heavily towards the previous owner leaving the door open all the time/often which I'm pretty sure he did (and probably at night/overnight too). He didn't really see many other entry points outside of that. For any areas where he saw holes in the walls he was just saying to fill with spray foam or steel wool. I had a drywall guy come out to open up a few spots under the sink and behind the dishwasher. There was nothing alarming, surprisingly. The damage remediation company was making it out to be like it was going to be a severe disaster behind the drywall.

The smell is lingering but I (and the drywall guy) think it's likely just the remnant particle board pieces they left in place as part of the temporary supports for the granite countertop, which they've supplemented with 2x4s.

The drywall guy did pull out some of the lower insulation batt. I'm not sure what kind I need to buy to fill the gaps at this point - I'm assuming this would work? Johns Manville R-7 Small Project Unfaced Fiberglass Insulation Roll 16 in. x 4 ft.-B777CT40 - The Home Depot

Other than that, I grabbed a bench brush and have been trying to sweep up as much as I can (with my n95 and gloves of course). I went through several times prior and sprayed most of the stuff down with bleach. Also got a pump sprayer and am going through now and spraying various areas with Odoban, including the areas the drywall guy opened up.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

spray foam, to a rat, is like cotton candy to people. i would have to see the hole, from outside. but i would be filling it with cement.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Fix'n it said:


> spray foam, to a rat, is like cotton candy to people. i would have to see the hole, from outside. but i would be filling it with cement.


What if you were to cram a piece of steel wool into the cavity and then cover with spray foam? What's odd is the guy scheduling me for the inspection said spray foam is ineffective but the guy who came out to actually inspect said he uses spray foam a lot and it is effective... lol

Side of garage where they got in - after sticking my camera down there it looks like they chewed a hole and got into the gap/void where a sewage/drain pipe was placed - the other side of this is the laundry room so I think it's part of that plumbing


















Initial entry point at garage door:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

steel wool woukld slow them down, but they could just pull it out. i would pack that with cement or mortar. 

the garage. replace the piece. then use some metal, coil stock, to trim it about 1' up.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

I'm not familiar with metal coil stock - is that just a piece of metal tin sheet?








Master Flow 24 in. x 36 in. Galvanized Steel Flat Sheet GFS24X361P - The Home Depot


The Master Flow 24 in. x 36 in. Galvanized Steel Flat Sheet is the ultimate product for custom fittings. This flat sheet is made of 30-Gauge galvanized steel for durability and sturdiness. You can cut



www.homedepot.com





Would either of these do? I think I have a caulk gun:









Quikrete 10 oz. Mortar Repair Sealant 862009 - The Home Depot


Quikrete 10 oz. Mortar Repair Tube features an acrylic formula used for sealing joints in concrete, brick and block surfaces. The tube features a square applicator that provides a smooth seal for mortar



www.homedepot.com












Quikrete 10 oz. Concrete Repair Tube 862010 - The Home Depot


Quikrete 10 oz. Concrete Repair is used for filling in cracks in concrete, stucco and masonry surfaces. It is weather-resistant, textured and remains flexible. Quikrete 10 oz. Concrete Repair is designed



www.homedepot.com






Also, that 'hole' in the wall is space next to the ABS pipe - is it OK to be stuffing a bunch of cement/mortar in there? Or should I try to just cover the area in front? Would I want to fill the cavity/space next to the ABS with a different material?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

10" x 10' White Aluminum Trim Coil at Menards® 

yeah, i think those tubes would work, but i have never used them for something that large.
the ABS, i wouldn't worry about that. when/if the time comes to service it, a hammer will make amends.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Fix'n it said:


> 10" x 10' White Aluminum Trim Coil at Menards®
> 
> yeah, i think those tubes would work, but i have never used them for something that large.
> the ABS, i wouldn't worry about that. when/if the time comes to service it, a hammer will make amends.


I'd hate to buy a pail of that mix for such a small project. Then again, if I just get a bag of the dry stuff, I'm sure I can just a little at a time and as needed right? I just want as little hassle as possible though when it comes to mixing all of it

Oh yea, I came up with semi-creative idea for covering up the corner 'hole' - I had one of those wide angle brackets sitting around in a toolbox so I grabbed it + sheetrock screws and screwed it right in. It was a near perfect fit hahaha

Before:









After:










BTW: I'm pretty sure all that brownish/tan stuff is from the old laminate they had in the kitchen. Maybe the glue? I wish I had a scraper...


EDIT: maybe one of these would be best?








Sika 1 Qt. Ready-Mix Concrete Patch and Repair, Textured Concrete Patch 7116120 - The Home Depot


Sikacryl Ready-Mixed Concrete Patch is an easy to use, acrylic-based, textured concrete patch for repairing spalls and cracks in concrete and masonry. It cures to a tough and durable finish. The application



www.homedepot.com












DRYLOK 4 lb. Fast Plug Hydraulic Cement Mix 00917 - The Home Depot


DRYLOK Fast Plug is a fast-setting hydraulic cement that sets in just 3-5 minutes, preventing water from flowing, even under pressure, through cracks and holes in concrete and masonry structures. It's



www.homedepot.com












Quikrete 4 lb. 1 Qt. Concrete Patching Compound 8650-35 - The Home Depot


Quikrete 1 Qt. Concrete Patching Compound can be used to repair damaged concrete surfaces including cracks and holes. This product offers the convenience of being able to be used immediately, without mixing. All you need is a small trowel to make non-structural repairs to concrete surfaces...



www.homedepot.com





And I tried scraping that gunk and it's coming off with a paint scraper. I'm suspecting some of the smell is coming from that stuff too so I'm going to scrape it soon.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Oops, I ended up grabbing this thinking it was pre-mixed:








Quikrete 10 lb. Quick-Setting Cement Concrete Mix 124011 - The Home Depot


Quikrete 10 lb. Quick-Setting Cement is a very fast setting concrete repair product. This product has the unique characteristic of being able to be sculpted and molded as it sets. The set time for this



www.homedepot.com





Haha, guess I'll be mixing it myself then.... I'd imagine this will work just fine to plug up that hole.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Fix'n it said:


> steel wool woukld slow them down, but they could just pull it out. i would pack that with cement or mortar.
> 
> the garage. replace the piece. then use some metal, coil stock, to trim it about 1' up.


If they chewed through a piece of trim or siding, the entire part needs to be armored. Just filling the hole they already chewed through with mortar means they can still chew through the surrounding trim.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

huesmann said:


> If they chewed through a piece of trim or siding, the entire part needs to be armored. Just filling the hole they already chewed through with mortar means they can still chew through the surrounding trim.


see how the concrete is cracked here. it looks to me that a piece of the concrete fell away. so they saw an opportunity, and/or smelled something from the hole. the little siding pulled away just made it easier for them to get in, the Fat rats ? lol . so, i believe, filling that hole well will stop that entry point. sides, it needs to be filled anyway. 

the real solution is to get rid of the rats outside.


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## jplee3 (Jan 11, 2012)

If I have any wire mesh, I may try to get some behind there too. I guess I should probably try to patch that piece of drywall they chewed at too...

As for the rats outside, I'm definitely going to be setting up bait boxes. I may set one up on the outside of the garage come to think of it. And then one in the back yard or side of the house. Is it better to set those stations up against the house itself? Or better to do it against the fence/neighbor's outside wall (hahaha)?

It actually looks like they added that ABS drain pipe and it's not part of the original home build - it seems there's a mortar/cement patch and either they didn't do a great job patching and left the exposed gap or the stuff wasn't mixed right and is super crumbly, enough for rats to chew right through. I'll have to go back out there and see how crumbly the stuff is. I'd imagine the integrity of that stuff can get compromised if you don't use the right ratio when mixing?


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## josephmx1 (Nov 4, 2020)

OldhousePHL said:


> Removing drywall that appears to have absorbed stuff isn't crazy because it can smell horrible. Good news is you can see behind it and maybe this will help you find and close entries. If just a few inches are problematic they can cut across and repair shouldn't be big deal. The horizontal cut should go from mid-stud to mid-stud and ideally the line should be straight and level. If you agree to drywall removal ask (politely) how they do this. You want the repairs to easy to do. Might be a good idea to mark water pipes if they're in the area. Just in case make sure you know where your house water shut off is located.
> 
> Is there a stove in the kitchen? Did you check the oven and bottom broiler for mice? In the NE this is the first place they go. Hopefully not in CA or your set up is different.
> 
> Take a deep breath and give yourself credit for what's already accomplished. Do you like cats?


That's funny, I was thinking about a place I bought to flip in Southern Oregon that had a couple mice when I got there. I got a cat and they disappeared, for a few weeks, then the cat started bringing them inside and was ****ing with them in my room At 2-3am. I was on five acres and the cat had her own way in and out. stopped eating cat food but was getting bigger...A cat will do the job, no doubt about that


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