# Heil Heat exchanger gone bad. What to do?



## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

*Type of unit*: Heil GasPack
*Age*: 11 years old
*Warranty*: 10 years
*Heated area of home*: 1300 sq ft.
*Age of house:* 50 years (built 1959)

*Sequence of events*:
1. _1998_: GasPack installed
2. _2002_: I buy the house
3. _2009_, _December_: Stops heating
4. _2009_, _December_: I pay large company $89 to inform me that a safety switch has been triggered, which effectively shuts the unit down
5. _2009_, _December_: Safety switch is reset, heat works fine.
6. _2009, December_: Same company inspects unit and informs me that heat exchanger is rusted thru, which I verify to be true (I keep heat off to avoid CO poisoning)
7. _2009, December_: Plan to make it thru winter without HVAC heat and reevaluate next winter.
8. _2009, January_: Too cold. Decide to purchase new heat exchanger from Searspartsdirect.com for $350 and have licensed Craigslist guy install for $250.
9. _2009, January_: Part is on B/O. Debating whether or not to purchase whole new unit.

*So my questions are*:

1. Should I repair or replace?
2. If replace, which brand should I get? Goodman is cheap, but would like to have a Carrier, Trane, Lennox or some other “high quality” brand.
3. If replace, how should I go about getting this done properly? (Correct sizing, quality install, etc…)

Thanks in advance! Feel free to heckle :jester:

Nick.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Ask guy from Craig's list to give you price to install new heater, let him do it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Get a couple estimates. Ask them if they do load calcs before you have them come out. If they say they don't do them. Tell them thank you, I'll call someone else.

Brand doesn't matter. the installer does though.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Only 11 years old I'd replace the heat exchanger if it was mine and in an area where you hardly need a furnace. Run some space heaters for now. Make sure the guy on craigslist is a licensed HVAC contractor in case something isn't done right, if you decide on replacing the whole furnace that is. Many list an EPA refridgerant certification as a HVAC license and it's not the same thing. Around here you must have passed the masters test before you can get a contractors license.


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## SKIP4661 (Dec 3, 2008)

May also want to make sure your Craigslist guy is insured with adequate liability insurance.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow, excellent information, Thanks!

I'd like to save a few dollars and just replace the heat exchanger, but the two unknowns are:

1. How much longer will the other components in my Gas Pack last?
2. How much more efficient will the new unit be? Or, how much will I save? (Currently, I pay about $150/mo in gas and electric for my heating and cooling, if I can cut it by 50% or cut it down to $100/mo, that might be worth it?)

Thanks again!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Unfortunately it probably has a HWell Smartvalve gas valve which is nothing but trouble and will need replacing soon. If it has a number like SV**** on it then you will have trouble soon and have to spend more $$. $500 or more. The A/C is probably a 8 or 10 SEER and a new unit will be 13/14 SEER and more efficient. 11 yrs of use on a A/C compressor is quite a bit if you are in a hot area/ use it a lot. You may get a few more years use out of it but it will require some repairs. Depending on the cost of a new unit I would think about it. Get 3 quotes and then decide. If A/C is the biggest consumner of your $$ a higher SEER unit may be worthwhile


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks, Yuri. I've picked a well known company, lesser known company and a craigslist guy to come by and give me estimates tomorrow. I will keep you guys posted. That's more good info. 

FWIW, here is the model number: PGAD36D1K5

Good luck trying to figure out the SEER or Tonnage rating, I couldn't! However I did see 90,000 BTU on the unit before I had to run inside. :surrender:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Probably a 3 ton A/C, 36=36,000 BTU's = 3 tons. I assume it is hot and humid where you are so you need that size fer sure. Historically I know the years when the SEER rating increased and yours is definately a 10 or less.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

If you repair you have an even chance of getting another 11 years out of it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Package units have shorter life spans then split unit systems.

So at 11 years. You have already gotten more then 50% of expected life span from that unit.
Better off replacing.
And having a warranty on all parts again. In stead of having to pay for more parts in a year or 2.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I say replace also now it's the heat exchanger next week when the wind is whipping up it will be the gas valve, the week after that it will be the blower motor.
Not only expensive but Aggravating.

An the efficiency is another story.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Yep.

People tend to box themselves into a bad corner.

After someone spends money on a heat exchanger change out.
When another part goes out. In order to justify what they spent on the heat exchanger. They now have to spend the money on the next repair.
And when a third thing goes out. They have to spend money on it, to justify the other 2 repairs.

And then they are still stuck with an old unreliable unit. that has no warranties on it. And is inefficient.


OP: Due to the configuration of a package units design. They are prone to heat exchanger failures.


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## chard (Feb 3, 2009)

I think it all depends on how much you can afford. Just cause you replace the HX now doesn't mean the compressor will go out next summer.
I am an HVAC tech and if it was me I would replace the HX. A new compressor. May cost around a thousand to replace. A new unit will cost around $4000.
There's still plenty of life left in that unit. As far as savings on your utilities, that varies house to house.
You may not save $50 a month. And if you could, even though you don't use it 24/7/365, that would take you 7 yrs or more to recoup the cost of a new unit.
Kind of like buying a new car to justify getting 10MPG better gas mileage when you only drive 100mi a week.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

As a tech. You can risk it. And not pay as much for repairs as someone that isn't a tech. And pays for repairs.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Here are my current options:

1. Repair HX: *$600* parts and labor (absolute cheapest route, I order the part and craigslist guy does the install)
2. Replaced by licensed Craigslist guy: *$3200* (Goodman 2.5 Ton Gas Pack)
3. Replaced by lesser known but legit company in Charlotte: *$5169* (Trane 2.5 Ton Gas Pack after $1500 govt. tax credit and $200 local power company rebate)
4. Replaced by largest and most reputable company in Charlotte: *$6830* (York 2.5 Ton Gas Pack)


What do you guys suggest?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

If the Trane qualifies for the tax credit, and the other ones don't.
You aren't comparing apples to apples.

You should get quotes on equipment that are in the same line and SEER to each other.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks, I wish I had time to research this more and make it apples to apples, but unfortunately, I don't (and I can barely type this as it's 41°F in this room right now). I had them all come tonight, and of course, they all showed up at about the same time. So it was a little hectic and I didn't get all of the numbers. What makes this even more difficult is guessing whether or not a unit qualifies for the tax credit. None of the estimators could give me a straight answer or made me confident that their unit would qualify except for option #3. I don't guess this is the first time govt. has made things complicated.

BTW, company #3 gave me a detailed printout and the model number on the Trane would be 4YCY4030A1075A.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah. The Trane meets the tax credit requirements.
need model numbers of the others to know if they do or not.
If they hee hawed around it. They are probably quoting units that don't.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

nichelob said:


> 1. Repair HX: *$600* parts and labor (absolute cheapest route,
> 
> 2. Replaced *$3200*
> 
> ...


You should repair if the chance of the repair holding for a reasonable amount of time is at least 100($600/$3200) = 19%.
I don't think, at 11 years, you are experiencing the increasing failure rate of the parts that is expected of normal wearout. I think you are still in the random failure phase of equipment lifetime, but the HVAC guys know the quirks of individual makes and models.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Like BT pointed out, watch out for the slippery slope of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs



Dot Plot of replacement prices
0.....2.....4.....6.....8
.........x.......x...x
The true replacement price, today in your ZIPcode, other things being equal, seems to be ~6 kilobucks.

Here's some prices in general, for the US, including yours.
HVAC Installed price in kilobucks	
2.7	
3.2	
3.8	
4.2	
5.2	
5.3	
6.8	
7.5	
8.4	
10	
10	
10	
12	
12	
13	
29	
39	

17=	num of samples
10.7= sample avg
8.4=	sample median



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> You should repair if the chance of the repair holding for a reasonable amount of time is at least 100($600/$3200) = 19%.
> I don't think, at 11 years, you are experiencing the increasing failure rate of the parts that is expected of normal wearout. I think you are still in the random failure phase of equipment lifetime, but the HVAC guys know the quirks of individual makes and models.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
> 
> ...



Very good information. I believe you've changed my mind, think I may just repair instead...


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

My licensed craigslist guy has found a HX in stock in Charlotte for $397.30. Labor $250. Can install tomorrow morning. This is the route I'm planning on taking, I'll keep you guys posted.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Package units have shorter life spans then split unit systems.
> 
> So at 11 years. You have already gotten more then 50% of expected life span from that unit.
> Better off replacing.
> And having a warranty on all parts again. In stead of having to pay for more parts in a year or 2.


What he said.

Being out doors the gas pack gets beat to death.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Well, the ship has already set sail, so we'll see in a few years if anything else goes bad. Don't be surprised to see me post an update in 2 years (or heck, this summer) with me asking for suggestions on a new compressor :jester:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

nichelob said:


> Well, the ship has already set sail, so we'll see in a few years if anything else goes bad. Don't be surprised to see me post an update in 2 years (or heck, this summer) with me asking for suggestions on a new compressor :jester:


Yep.
Might end up with spending $3,900.00 bucks over 3 years to keep that unit going.

After all. it has passed the 2/3 ways of its expected life span.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Especially in a humid climate. Circuit boards, fan motors etc are exposed to the moisture, corrode faster etc than an indoor unit.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

In any case, have 3 CO detectors in your house. Try to get the kind that are more sensitive, that detect below 70 PPM.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I think the unit should definitely be replaced but due to the weather and your financial situation maybe spending 6oo is not a bad idea.

But I would just use the new heat X as a temporary unit and be looking to replace in the upcoming months.

What I would do is homework find out all the information you can on what units are out there, prices, efficiency, Companies, rebates, ETC and start over on getting prices.

Take the 600 as well spent getting you through the winter then get a new system.

Right now is not the time to be getting quotes on new systems, Ok OK lighten up all you businessmen.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

SULTINI said:


> Right now is not the time to be getting quotes on new systems, Ok OK lighten up all you businessmen.


I just can't imagine it being all that cold in NC.
that 2 or 3 space heaters wouldn't hold him over until he could choose a good company to replace the unit,


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Just checked the weather for Charlotte, NC for the next five days.

Lows 17 deg to 29 deg


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

3 space heaters will keep them warm in the living dining and kitchen area during the day. And move them to the bedrooms at night. 

Little colder then normal probably.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Well, after $780, I now have non-poisonous heat. (as far as I know, (we'll see if the dog's dead when I get home)). We decided to replace the collector box too since it was also "rotten". He also kicked in a new burner bracket free of charge. As of right now, I'm a happy camper.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

As long as your happy that's all that matters.

Keep the economy going get a new system in the Spring.


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## nichelob (Jan 5, 2010)

Spring '19 :jester:


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

nichelob said:


> Spring '19 :jester:


 
2010:whistling2:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Better late than never*

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vz...page&q="when to fix it, when to junk"&f=false


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Home inspectors are not known for being able to judge accurately(sorry HI guys), when to repair HVAC appliances.

Where do you see his data for his recommendations.

Or did he get them from some book. And now includes it in his book.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere brings up a valid. 

I have been called out to look at a furnace when a customer first moves into a home.

It never fails that when I find a bad furnace the new HO will say, "the home inspector didn't say that."

my first reaction would be to say "Then why did you need my opinion?".

But, I bite my tongue and ask for the inspectors report. And it will always say "Have furnace professionally inspected due to age and condition".

Some folks are just looking for some one to tell what they WANT to hear instead of what is really wrong. 

I get paid either way.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

hvaclover, OH There you are I thought you got sucked into a big fan somewhere or some homeowner stopped over to say hello to you.

Missed your Picture. I'm a scare -d-cat.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

nothing wrong with goodman equipment,i install lots of them.goodman is an actual manufacturer of furnaces for many other companys and their lowest end 80plus furnace carries a 20 year warranty on heat exchanger.carrier/bryant has had isues with leaking coils for years.lennox is like a mopar not much interchanges between models so if you need a major part chances are its coming on a slow boat from marshaltown iowa.trane has had issues with cracked heat exchangers for years.rheem/rhuud is just a pain to work on......... :whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

plummen said:


> nothing wrong with goodman equipment,i install lots of them.goodman is an actual manufacturer of furnaces for many other companys and their lowest end 80plus furnace carries a 20 year warranty on heat exchanger.carrier/bryant has had issues with leaking coils for years.lennox is like a mopar not much interchanges between models so if you need a major part chances are its coming on a slow boat from marshaltown iowa.trane has had issues with cracked heat exchangers for years.rheem/rhuud is just a pain to work on......... :whistling2:


Every brand you listed has had a problem.

Including Goodman. And you avoided mentioning any of Goodman's past problems I see. Along with current problems.

If your going to list problems for a few brands. List them for the brand your recommending also.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

back when they were jani-junk,junk-itrol many years ago they had problems.he labeled them as inferior equipment so i was pointing out the problems of the superior brands to him since he apperntly wasnt aware of any.ive worked on and installed many brands over the years including york/frasier johnson,ducane,lennox,trane,rhuud/rheem/weather king....... i can get any brand of equipment i want but based on my experiance with price and warranty,ease of getting parts and quality of product goodman holds its own in my book.if goodman goes back to its jan-junk ways ill be the first to spread the word but untill then ive seen no problems .http://hyetechutilities.com :whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

So you don't know of the recall of their gas electric package units last year huh.
Their PTACs are under recall again. The ones made between feb of 2007, to june of 2008.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

wasnt aware he was installing a package unit in his house,so that kinda throws that out the window eh? :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

plummen said:


> wasnt aware he was installing a package unit in his house,so that kinda throws that out the window eh? :laughing:


Point is:

Goodman today has the same problems as any other brand.

If you want to push them, fine, no problem.
You start listing troubles other brands have, or have had. List Goodman's also.

Other wise. Your just brand bashing.

I could go into other problems with them also.
But its not worth it. Since all brands have problems.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

whos bashing brands here?did you not read my post about him calling goodman an inferior brand? all i did was mentioned some of the problems other brands have to level the playing field here,install whatever you want ! i work on all brands it dont matter to me what is but for residential gas furnaces and heat pumps i personally believe the goodman is just as good if not better than any of the brands he calls superior :whistling2:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

nichelob said:


> *Type of unit*: Heil GasPack
> *Age*: 11 years old
> *Warranty*: 10 years
> *Heated area of home*: 1300 sq ft.
> ...


 this whole post began with bashing a certain brand of equipment :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

he just posted his tracking of troubles and repair expenses.


We all should be proud of the brand we sell.
Just not too prideful when we sing its praises.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

im not too proud of anything except the work i do! :laughing: do you drink,im ready to buy you a beer and i dont even drink! :thumbsup: :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I drink very little anymore.
I tend to sometimes forget when its time to leave a bar if I go out.

But, I'll let you buy me one anyways.


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## FixItFrank (Jan 19, 2010)

*You'll probably need more than the exchanger*

Sorry, this is my first post and didn't realize there were 3 more pages of replies. I see you had the cl man do the fix. Below is what i wrote before realizing the next 3 pages of posts:

If the front of your furnace area is rusted you'll need more than an exchanger.

I have the same unit, installed in 93. My exchanger just popped the roll-out switch last week. I replaced the roll out switch only to have it pop again. Pulled out the blower fan and found 5 holes in the 4 pipes of the exchanger. Not that i'm suggesting this, but i sealed them up with some Inferno 2000 deg F. I found it at AutoZone in the muffler repair section. It's basically a cold-weld that after a 4 hour cure and a 10-minute burn-in, becomes hi-temp resistant metal. Again, i'm not suggesting you perform unless you're mechanical and understand both how your heating system works and how the repair works. I bonded mine 3 days ago and yesterday opened the windows and cranked the heat for an hour to let the metal compound off-gas the chemicals.

BTW- since i've had my house, 7 yrs: I've had to bypass the compressor anti-cycle timer & replace the condenser fan motor --- so you have some more things coming.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

SULTINI said:


> hvaclover, OH There you are I thought you got sucked into a big fan somewhere or some homeowner stopped over to say hello to you.
> 
> Missed your Picture. I'm a scare -d-cat.


Hell ....nobody knows my real name or where I live.
Even my IP number is disguised:laughing:


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## Homer123 (Sep 2, 2014)

*Craigs list guy.*



SULTINI said:


> Ask guy from Craig's list to give you price to install new heater, let him do it.


Yep have the Craigslist guy do it. He can probably set you up with a goodman or something cheaper. My grandma might be available, as she can buy a goodman too. 
Don't get someone with a license or a job, your warranty doesn't need a dealer and the Craigslist guy is probably insured and trained more than most licensed guys.


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## sammy37 (Dec 9, 2008)

Homer123 said:


> Yep have the Craigslist guy do it. He can probably set you up with a goodman or something cheaper. My grandma might be available, as she can buy a goodman too.
> Don't get someone with a license or a job, your warranty doesn't need a dealer and the Craigslist guy is probably insured and trained more than most licensed guys.


Well, since this thread is several years old, I'm sure the OP is long gone.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

sammy37 said:


> Well, since this thread is several years old, I'm sure the OP is long gone.


I guess Homer 123's grandma will have to look for work elsewhere then.


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## sammy37 (Dec 9, 2008)

hvac benny said:


> I guess Homer 123's grandma will have to look for work elsewhere then.


Lol:laughing:


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