# Mule Hide Mod Bit for flat roof



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Yes. Mule hide sells several different products through second tier distributors that cannot qualify as sales arms for major manufacturers like Firestone, Carlisle, OC, Certainteed etc.

Their MB systems used to be called Rhinohide. If your roof ponds DO NOT use Modified Bitumen. It will not hold up, but then again you do not want your roof to pond regardless of what roofing system you use. 

I never use any Modified Bitumen in a single ply configuration, and I never use APP. I generally spec first ply, fiberglass reinforced, mopped in type 4 to ASTM 4601 Nailed base sheet over rosin seized paper, (Assuming Wood Deck) Cap ply, Granular surfaced, Polyester Reinforced, Thermally Fused (Torch)

Soprema, Siplast


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

jagans said:


> Yes. Mule hide sells several different products through second tier distributors that cannot qualify as sales arms for major manufacturers like Firestone, Carlisle, OC, Certainteed etc.
> 
> Their MB systems used to be called Rhinohide. If your roof ponds DO NOT use Modified Bitumen. It will not hold up, but then again you do not want your roof to pond regardless of what roofing system you use.
> 
> ...


You totally lost me at I never use any Modified Bitumen.........

I have no idea what that paragraph said......


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> You totally lost me at I never use any Modified Bitumen.........
> 
> I have no idea what that paragraph said......


So this was not the title of your inquiry:

*Mule Hide Mod Bit for flat roof?*


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

yes it was, but I have no idea what APP means or spec first ply, mopped in type 4 or anything else in that paragraph.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> yes it was, but I have no idea what APP means or spec first ply, mopped in type 4 or anything else in that paragraph.


" Bitumen" in this sense is the "Cognac" or sludge if you will that settles to the bottom of a still in processing crude oil. This product is called Flux.

Modified Bitumen (Flux) is "Modified" in several different ways.

APP is Atactic Polypropylene. It is a plastic additive

SBS is Styrene Butediene Styrene. It is a rubber additive.

Bitumen Modified with SBS actually goes through an inversion process that changes the chemical properties of Bitumen to be like rubber.

Bitumen modified with APP is simply modified by the plastic.

There are pros and cons to both, but the pros outweigh the cons in favor of SBS in my opinion.

Both of the MFGR's I mentioned use SBS.

Sorry for the confusion


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## Rooftruth (Sep 17, 2014)

*Incorrect statement*

To correct the wrong information below: Mule-Hide Products Co. offers a variety of premium-quality, high-performance low-slope roofing products and systems – including self-adhering Mod Bit, TPO, EPDM, PVC, vegetative roofing systems, elastomeric acrylic coatings and asphalt cements and coatings – and related accessories and maintenance and repair products. Mule-Hide products are available through ABC Supply, the nation’s largest wholesale distributor of roofing (top tier). For more information, visit mulehide.com or call our customer line at 800-786-1492. Mule-Hide Products Co, "the name trusted in roofing since 1906" has never offered any system called Rhinohide. Thank you for the opportunity to provide this correct information.



jagans said:


> Yes. Mule hide sells several different products through second tier distributors that cannot qualify as sales arms for major manufacturers like Firestone, Carlisle, OC, Certainteed etc.
> 
> Their MB systems used to be called Rhinohide. If your roof ponds DO NOT use Modified Bitumen. It will not hold up, but then again you do not want your roof to pond regardless of what roofing system you use.
> 
> ...


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Rooftruth said:


> To correct the wrong information below: Mule-Hide Products Co. offers a variety of premium-quality, high-performance low-slope roofing products and systems – including self-adhering Mod Bit, TPO, EPDM, PVC, vegetative roofing systems, elastomeric acrylic coatings and asphalt cements and coatings – and related accessories and maintenance and repair products. Mule-Hide products are available through ABC Supply, the nation’s largest wholesale distributor of roofing (top tier). For more information, visit mulehide.com or call our customer line at 800-786-1492. Mule-Hide Products Co, "the name trusted in roofing since 1906" has never offered any system called Rhinohide. Thank you for the opportunity to provide this correct information.


Thanks, 

Who manufactures the roof systems that Mule-Hide markets?


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## Rooftruth (Sep 17, 2014)

*Roofing products manufacturing*

All brands of roofing products are manufactured at either company-owned plants strategically located nationwide for shipping/logistical effectiveness or products are toll-manufactured at plants by one company for other companies. Toll manufacturing does not change who is considered the manufacturer/brand since the products are manufactured according to the brand's specifications. What architects, engineers, roofing consultants, roofers and building owners need to know is whether a brand's products and systems meet roofing industry standards and have the correct approvals/listings to meet local codes.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Mule-Hide is generally what "contractors" use who can not yet get certification by one of the major material manufactures.


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## Rooftruth (Sep 17, 2014)

*Roofing Contractors often warranty-eligible with many brands*

Contractors who are warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are often also warranty-eligible with other brands. It is inaccurate that contractors warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are unable to obtain warranty-eligibility with other brands.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Rooftruth said:


> Contractors who are warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are often also warranty-eligible with other brands. It is inaccurate that contractors warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are unable to obtain warranty-eligibility with other brands.


Mule-hide approves just about anyone off the street here where other manufactures to a point wont. So it is accurate. Good on you for trying to sell your product though. 

Anyway since you round abouted the question earlier, who does mule-hide buy their products from?

EPDM?

TPO?

PVC?

S/A Modifieds?

Or is it just who ever is cheaper at the time?


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## Rooftruth (Sep 17, 2014)

*Answers to questions*

Mule-Hide Products Co. does not buy from other companies. Mule-Hide Products Co. products are manufactured at plants nationwide, plants that do not change, unless when a new manufacturing plant is opened to expand shipping points. All products are manufactured to our specifications for all product lines.

Mule-Hide Products Co.'s warranty-eligible contractors are fully trained by a Mule-Hide Territory Manager prior to becoming warranty-eligible. A Mule-Hide representative inspects all commercial projects for which a Standard System Warranty or a Premium System Warranty is requested prior to the issuance of the warranty.

Information on becoming a Mule-Hide Warranty Eligible Contractor can be found at www.mulehide.com under the Warranty information tab.

Mule-Hide also offers a selection of Membrane Warranties that are available for residential (single-family dwelling) projects.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Rooftruth said:


> Mule-Hide Products Co. does not buy from other companies. Mule-Hide Products Co. products are manufactured at plants nationwide, plants that do not change, unless when a new manufacturing plant is opened to expand shipping points. All products are manufactured to our specifications for all product lines.


So then does mule-hide own said plants?



Rooftruth said:


> Mule-Hide Products Co.'s warranty-eligible contractors are fully trained by a Mule-Hide Territory Manager prior to becoming warranty-eligible. A Mule-Hide representative inspects all commercial projects for which a Standard System Warranty or a Premium System Warranty is requested prior to the issuance of the warranty.


Same as every other manufacture, only difference is you use to be able to go to Menards and buy mule-hide, no idea what they sell now. But anyone can still walk in to ABC and buy mule-hide.



Rooftruth said:


> Information on becoming a Mule-Hide Warranty Eligible Contractor can be found at www.mulehide.com under the Warranty information tab.


No thanks we have many manufactures that we are certified in, plus I don't really care to purchase any mule-hide products or from ABC for that matter. The reason being for them setting up many unqualified "contractors" in our area who have really driven the pricing down more importantly the expected quality has gone down because of it. It has really given the contractors who have been around here for many years and know how to properly install commercial roofs a bad rep.



Rooftruth said:


> Mule-Hide also offers a selection of Membrane Warranties that are available for residential (single-family dwelling) projects.



TBH Membrane warranties are just a gimmick. Poor craftsmanship is why low slope roofs fail, a 60 mil EPDM sheet will last for a very very long time, it's the details and workmanship that dictates a good or bad roof.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

"Territory Managers" are sales people, not technical people. Major manufacturers learned a long time ago that you have to separate sales from technical. 

"Warranty Eligible Roofers" says to me that you will sell to roofers that are not eligible for your warranties, in other words, anyone who walks in off the street. 

This is fine if you intend to simply supply a commodity to the general public, but you would know if you have been in the commercial low slope roofing business for any length of time that it takes a significant amount of education and field experience to properly install low slope roofs. This takes training by a good technical department, not a wink from a salesman.

Putting low slope materials in the hands of residential steep roofing contractors or Harry Homeowner without benefit of proper training gets you what Silly Me Has. A Brand new failed roof.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jagans said:


> "Territory Managers" are sales people, not technical people. Major manufacturers learned a long time ago that you have to separate sales from technical.


I didn't catch that in the first post. I guess you should say *some* have learned. Seems the manufactures still let the sales department "qualify" people to be able to install the products and get a warranty, but only after it is inspected. This leads to job blow running round saying he is so and so certified before they actually are.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

Rooftruth, I have nothing against your products. In fact everything I researched about mule hide was good.

I am going to send you a private message, but I need a few more posts.

May I ask you to go read the thread "Professional Roofers?" I would be happy to see your input.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

Just so everyone knows, I did not come on here to bad mouth anyone or any products.

I am looking for a solution to my roofing problem and I was flat out of ideas. It is a very desperate feeling when you don't know who else to call or what direction to take.

I am not a roofer, I am a consumer.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

sillyme said:


> Just so everyone knows, I did not come on here to bad mouth anyone or any products.
> 
> I am looking for a solution to my roofing problem and I was flat out of ideas. It is a very desperate feeling when you don't know who else to call or what direction to take.
> 
> I am not a roofer, I am a consumer.



We know, no one is here bad mouthing Mule-Hides products. Just trying to give rooftruth some truth about how it actually works on the installers end in the real world.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> Just so everyone knows, I did not come on here to bad mouth anyone or any products.
> 
> I am looking for a solution to my roofing problem and I was flat out of ideas. It is a very desperate feeling when you don't know who else to call or what direction to take.
> 
> I am not a roofer, I am a consumer.


The best way to proceed would have been as follows:

Hire a Design Professional to Perform an initial investigation to determine exactly what you have in place. Design Professional develops a Project manual with specifications and drawings, specifically for your building, and its intended use. 

The Design professional provides a list of at least 3 bidders that are well versed in the selected roof system. A Pre Bid meeting is held to give the bidders a chance to walk the job and ask questions.

Bids are received and reviewed by Design Professional and Owner. Most responsible bidder is selected. (This is usually the low bidder of the three, but not always) Form of Agreement is written by design professional

Selected Contractor installs roof with full time or part time monitoring by design professional.

Warranty is issued by Manufacturer after inspection by same.

Payment would be as agreed to in the form of agreement, On a 4,000 square foot roof, the roofers I work with would not expect payment until the project is complete. On large projects, payments are made monthly on installed work only.

There are some really good roofers out there, many of which post on this forum, but in most cases they are not design professionals, and they will often make the building fit the type of roof they are familiar with, instead of selecting the right roof system for the buildings use.

The roofers that bid on my work are very happy to do so, because they are all playing from the same sheet music, and every detail is right there in the Project Manual. :thumbsup:


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

jagans, are you kidding? I have never gone through all those steps to find a roofer.

Maybe that's the problem.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> jagans, are you kidding? I have never gone through all those steps to find a roofer.
> 
> Maybe that's the problem.


LOL I know, it seems like a lot, especially for such a small roof. It is very difficult for any of us here to help you without any pictures whatsoever, so at this point you need a professional to look at your roof. I PM'd You, Hope you got it.

The thing is, with Modified Bitumen, if it a torch applied roof, the roofer really has to know how to handle the torch so that proper fusing is achieved, especially in the seam overlaps. I have seen jobs that were messed up and the contractor went back and tried to melt the surface and trowel hot bitumen over the seam. This does not work for long, as the seal is simply superficial. With Mod Bit, I always spec the first plys to be mopped in hot asphalt, and the cap to be torched. We don't even know what the makeup of your roof assembly is, so again, we are kind of flying blind here.

If your roof is truly flat, Modified Bitumen would not have been my choice, but then, I probably would have specified tapered insulation to get the water moving. 

I have a feeling that your guy took his problem to ABC, and the desk guy sold him mod bit and a couple of torches. I actually had a client that did this same thing on a 300,000 sq. ft. roof. The roofer shingled his house, and he did a nice job, so he figured a roofer is a roofer is a roofer.

Boy, he was not a happy camper when I told him that his roof was a total loss, and it was a big number, as you can well imagine. He was a property manager and I went on to design many roofs for him after that episode.

Lets see what the RRC says.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

I got your PM and I thank you.

Torch was on here before the mule hide. It did not leak anywhere.

It is pouring rain again today. I guess we will find the rest of the leaks! I hate the thought, but we really need to find them all.

I will get some pics when someone comes out here and post them for y'all to see.

I never could have imagined this big of a mess with a new roof. I wish I had the old roof back.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

I am just realizing what y'all are saying about being certified or authorized by manufacturers.

I've lived a long time, in fact, Moses and I were in daycare together and I have had to buy a few roofs, but NEVER did I realize you had to use a roofer that was authorized or certified with a manufacturer.

How the heck is just the average homeowner supposed to know this???????? Obviously the roofer is not going to tell you.

If I have to eat this new roof on my house, I promise it won't be a well kept secret! I have been as nice as I can be through the process and I have avoided a total melt down so far, but nice will fly right out the window.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

sillyme said:


> I am just realizing what y'all are saying about being certified or authorized by manufacturers.
> 
> I've lived a long time, in fact, Moses and I were in daycare together and I have had to buy a few roofs, but NEVER did I realize you had to use a roofer that was authorized or certified with a manufacturer.
> 
> ...



A lot of the time it goes along with our advertising. So in our ads it lists the major manufactures that we are certified to install a warrantied roof for, it's also on the back of our business cards. Also when I'm talking to a potential customer all of our samples are from the manufacture, screws, insulation, membrane all is clearly labeled with the manufacture and material information. I will mention that we are XXXXX manufacture approved but in all reality XXXXX manufacture doesn't matter as they won't be warranting your roof, we will be. That's also a thing to look out for also, if someone is offering a 10 year contractors warranty but only have been in business for 3 years it pure speculation that they will be around for that 10 years. The warranty IMO carries little more weight if the company has been around for 20+ years.

A lot of the manufactures do not give warranties on a residential roof there are a few, some of them only offer a membrane warranty. A membrane warranty in my opinion is worthless, there has been very few occasions I have actually seen where the membrane its self was the cause of the leak and generally when it is the membrane is 10+ years old. It's almost always installation errors.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1985gt said:


> A lot of the time it goes along with our advertising. So in our ads it lists the major manufactures that we are certified to install a warrantied roof for, it's also on the back of our business cards. Also when I'm talking to a potential customer all of our samples are from the manufacture, screws, insulation, membrane all is clearly labeled with the manufacture and material information. I will mention that we are XXXXX manufacture approved but in all reality XXXXX manufacture doesn't matter as they won't be warranting your roof, we will be. That's also a thing to look out for also, if someone is offering a 10 year contractors warranty but only have been in business for 3 years it pure speculation that they will be around for that 10 years. The warranty IMO carries little more weight if the company has been around for 20+ years.
> 
> A lot of the manufactures do not give warranties on a residential roof there are a few, some of them only offer a membrane warranty. A membrane warranty in my opinion is worthless, there has been very few occasions I have actually seen where the membrane its self was the cause of the leak and generally when it is the membrane is 10+ years old. It's almost always installation errors.


I would like to second what 1985gt says, and take it a bit further. I Have actually seen a material failure by a couple of manufacturers, and I have see one stand behind the warranty fully. The others offered some percentage of a replacement roof based on a prorated basis, and I have seen them walk away. There have been products that manufacturers come out with that have been in field service for less than a year, yet the manufacturer is offering 20 year warranties on the product. This is purely a sales gimmic, and it is based entirely on speculation. Unfortunately, what happens in a controlled laboratory has no relationship to what happens on a roof, and what happens on a roof varies by by climate, and too many other circumstances to list here. There are some roof consulting companies that refuse to accept the manufacturers warranty. Why? It is fairly simple. Now Listen, because this is important: 

ROOF WARRANTIES ARE WRITTEN BY ATTORNEYS HIRED BY THE ROOFING MANUFACTURER TO KEEP THE ROOFING MANUFACTURER FROM EVER HAVING TO PAY OUT ON ONE.

Some have such ridiculous requirements that no roof would ever qualify for warranty under them. 

Several roofing sales arms are what I call storefront companies. That is, they have no assets to speak of. Their warranties are backed by insurance policies. When they go under they no longer pay the premiums and your warranty is worthless. For some reason, most of these types of companies home offices are in Ohio. It must have something to do with corporate law there.

A good roofing contractor can make a marginal roof system perform, wherein a bad roofing contractor can screw up even the best of roof systems.

The only thing I will add for the benefit of good roofers, is that when you take on the responsibility of recommending a type of roof to a customer, and this goes for sales people too, like our Mule Hyde friend, you have taken on the responsibility of being the design professional, and you have opened yourself up to legal recourse should something go wrong. This is a sticky wicket in the realm of roofing, because most Registered Roof Consultants forgot more about roofs than most Architects ever knew.

This brings us right back to knowing your limitations. I regularly work for Architects, and I have a very good structural engineer that is retired from the Army Corps of Engineers for thirty years.

Other than the above I agree with 1985gt 1000% Installing low slope commercial roofs is nothing like installing steep roofs, and the learning process can be extremely painful for someone who refuses to see the difference. Like ONB says, you have to think like water, but with Low slope roofing, you have to think of water under hydrostatic pressure.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

I wish I had come on this website before I bought the roof. I could have learned so much and made a more informed decision. Y'all are a fountain of good information.

On the other hand, it is pouring again today and I already found another small leak. I want to just spit!!!!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> I wish I had come on this website before I bought the roof. I could have learned so much and made a more informed decision. Y'all are a fountain of good information.
> 
> On the other hand, it is pouring again today and I already found another small leak. I want to just spit!!!!


I know you are upset, but you really need some professional help, especially if you have what I think you have. You need a really good person out there to analyze what you have. You do not want to be chasing leaks for 20 years.


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## sillyme (Sep 13, 2014)

I only get upset for about 30 seconds and then I shake it off. No point in getting upset over something I cannot control.

It is supposed to rain like this through Monday. The good news is, everything that is going to leak should be leaking after all this rain.

The big leaks in the den have quit leaking and now we just have little ones cropping up. At least they just make a circle on the sheetrock and don't drip........not yet, anyway.

I know this will all be solved at some point and we will be able to put the furniture back in place and go back to enjoying our home. Yesterday would not be soon enough.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sillyme said:


> I only get upset for about 30 seconds and then I shake it off. No point in getting upset over something I cannot control.
> 
> It is supposed to rain like this through Monday. The good news is, everything that is going to leak should be leaking after all this rain.
> 
> ...


As Confucius said when asked "when is the best time to plant a tree:"

"Ten Years Ago"


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Rooftruth said:


> Contractors who are warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are often also warranty-eligible with other brands. It is inaccurate that contractors warranty-eligible with Mule-Hide Products Co are unable to obtain warranty-eligibility with other brands.


I just remembered who marketed Rhino-Hyde, it was Monroe Roofing Products. They were like Mule-Hyde which private labels products from different manufacturers. Sorry for the mistake. We had a Monroe sales person bring us a couple of jobs way back when, and as I recall their modified was not bad, but I would not install it as a single ply like the salesman wanted, so I mopped two plies of type 4 glass felt and torched the Modified as a cap. Worked out fine. Oh we aluminized it also, once the tobacco juice washed off. It's weird how I remember this stuff after 35 years, but I cant remember what I had for lunch. :whistling2:


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