# Mold resolution help needed



## mikeylikesit580 (Sep 28, 2010)

LEVI, now Im afraid to do mine!! 

I've heard things about treating mold, at one point I was told to use bleach. But then somebody told me that bleach still had water in it, so it wasn't good. Id Imagine, some good plastic/vapor barrier might slow it down.


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Mikey.. and don't get worried... this is all GOOD in the end :thumbsup: (gotta get dirty before its clean, right?) Was thinking that too.. the moisture stuck on *their* side is their problem anyway.

This was mentioned on some other threads after some digging around on mold issues, but wondering if anyone has had success using MicroBan BanClene, any feedback on it.. no where can I find that it's OK to spray directly onto Drywall.

http://www.baneclene.com/catalog/microban.html

I'm also assuming that I clean the surface mold first, spray this... then... a coat of primer on the back? Throw up some poly? As you can see, I'm open to ANY advice


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

I've got some Zinsser sealer leftover from another room - after a scrub, would this "seal" is from my side?


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Wow. I'm about to gut a bathroom too, now I'm afraid as well.

Have you shown this to the neighbors? What do they think, or let me guess, they don't care.

How about the condo association? Since between the two walls is "common" shouldn't they help out here? 

Document everything you are doing. The problem with mold is the spores. They'll get everywhere in that bay and any moisture, from their side, will just help the problem. They really need to fix their water problem.

Good luck!


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

I'd be sure your neighbor knows he's also got a problem, unless your side created the problem for both. If the neighbor has a moisture problem, it doesn't matter what you do, the mold will thrive. Mold needs moisture. If the moisture continues, so does the mold. If you can get it dried out, and neighbor won't replace his drywall, then I'd clean as best I could with a dtergent. Completely dry out the wall. Then treat it with a fungicide. 10% bleach solution or whatever product you choose. Let that dry completely. Then coat it with a sealer. Apply 6 mil poly towards his side so that any new insulation is isolated from his mess and is towards your side. You should coat the studs while it is opened up. Mold won't live on rust, but lots of other nasty things will. Keep in mind that the metal studs will be isolated to his side by the poly and will continue to rust as long as they are damp.


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Maintenance 6 said:


> You should coat the studs while it is opened up. Mold won't live on rust, but lots of other nasty things will. Keep in mind that the metal studs will be isolated to his side by the poly and will continue to rust as long as they are damp.


Thanks for the suggestions... the steps make sense.. just a clarifier: What would you coat the studs with?


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

IMO and sorry. You are not going to resolve this without cutting out the other side of the wall and replacing it. Ditto all as to why it is there in the first place and if you do not resolve that it will be back. 

BTW it looks like your tub surround leaked badly and am I guessing regular drywall only was behind it, in a bathroom? Where do you live where you can get away with that?


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

sdsester said:


> IMO and sorry. You are not going to resolve this without cutting out the other side of the wall and replacing it. Ditto all as to why it is there in the first place and if you do not resolve that it will be back.


Sdsester - thank you, I know  But I'm in a condo and that wall you are looking at is the back of my neighbor's shower.. so my question (and Maintenance6's response so far) is how to deal with the situation I'm stuck in :jester:



> BTW it looks like your tub surround leaked badly and am I guessing regular drywall only was behind it, in a bathroom? Where do you live where you can get away with that?


Oh did it ever leak.. yeah, the builder construction was 5/8" fireboard between units and then 1/2" drywall with tile on top.. who knows if the grout/tile was sealed (prob not). These buildings were built in 1979/1980 in Montgomery County, Maryland. I wish I knew all this before I bought (1st time buyer). :furious:


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## Stephen S. (Nov 23, 2009)

Only good solution is to show your neighbour the problem and persuade your neighbour to remodel his side to make things right...


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Condo board meeting time?!!! Clearly these sorts of problems are not those individual unit owners or their neighbors are expected to resolve? This is a major infrastructure issue. This is why you pay them, not to appease the maintenance person as to how best to cover them up!

If the whole place was constructed this way, which cannot possibly be code even in Maryland, you need to band together. It's everywhere if you and your neighbor are experiencing it and construction is typical.

Who approved such construction and inspected it in the first place. Not that this will help you.

I don't know how to help at this point. If this construction was common and above and below you are also baths of similar ilk? 

One lesson learned I hope. Hire your own building inspector next time?

I hate to even mention this but you should probably consult an attorney soon. Did you buy this thing "as is" and which real estate agents on either side allowed you to do so? Was a potential mold problem this serious disclosed? 

And you cannot coat those studs with anything, seal the wall up and expect them not to corrode further unless you gut the other side, just to start. Sorry.

- Steven


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Steven - I've been here 3 years in May, and it seems like there are still a good chunk of original owners around.. they HAVE to know about this, I wonder if they just don't want to deal? I never fancied myself getting involved in the HOA, but I feel like I'm going to show up at the next meeting and speak my piece.



sdsester said:


> And you cannot coat those studs with anything, seal the wall up and expect them not to corrode further unless you gut the other side, just to start. Sorry.


I am trying to make do for now with what I have: so can you clarify this? I realize this is going to be an issue unless my neighbor clears up their problem (in actuality, this is going to be an issue always, as we can't VENT, so in another 5 years, I'll bet I gotta rip out again), so I'm just trying to CONTROL as best I can... so are you saying not to treat the metal studs in any way?


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

Their wall, their mold, their decision.

I would not touch it. It is not your mold, it is your neighbor's mold. I would bring them over, show them what is growing behind their shower and let them make the decision and do the work. If you do _anything_ to it and their tiles fall off the wall you will get blamed. After all, even though that wall may currently have the structural integrity of oatmeal, "they didn't have any problems until you messed with it". :whistling2:


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

LeviDIY said:


> so are you saying not to treat the metal studs in any way?


No. If you must deal with this as best you can you might as well grind off the rust that is there and coat everything with a rust inhibiting primer if you can afford it. Just don't be to optimistic.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Blondesense's assessment. But there are some considerations. As it stands, you now have mold exposed in YOUR dwelling even though it may be your neighbor's. Until you get your condo association, an attorney, etc. involved, YOU are without a bathroom. As far as coating the studs, we use silver rustoleum, although color doesn't matter. I can't stress enough that if the moisture problem doesn't go away, neither will the mold. You can treat forever and as long as conditions are mold friendly, (damp, temperature correct, organic food source) the mold will never go away. Just to be clear, the suggestions I offered were just a way to isolate yourself from your neighbor's issue. Ultimately, complete removal of the drywall on both sides is the correct fix. Fortunately, it's not a large volume of mold. Unfortunately, it's in a miserable place to deal with ($$$).


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Stephen S. said:


> Only good solution is to show your neighbour the problem and persuade your neighbour to remodel his side to make things right...


My only problem with this is which neighbor? The one obvious or the one with the same bath configuration above and below. They probably have the same problem, whether they know it or not, and are contributing moisture and mold to the walls as well.


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks for the helpful replies... hopefully you can sense my frustration a bit :furious:.

I think I'm futilly running a dehumidifier in there hoping that solves the problem :laughing:.

I'm at a decision point right now. Shinny new supplies (greenboard, CBU, fireboard, new toilet, new tile, etc) are piled up in the condo ready to go, wife is eagerly anticipating/demanding I move forward ("why can't you just spray some 409, wipe it down and move on?") and I'd kinda like to make progress too. On the other hand, as you've said, do I bring over neighbor to see first hand, do I bring in HOA people to see first hand, do I call an attorney and go that route? 

You know, I knew there would be a mold issue, and when searchign this forum and other websites online, I was always amazed at how helpless and "frantic" other posters with mold issues seemed to be... I thought they were overreacting.. now I get it. :surrender:



sdsester said:


> My only problem with this is which neighbor? The one obvious or the one with the same bath configuration above and below. They probably have the same problem, whether they know it or not, and are contributing moisture and mold to the walls as well.


You are 100% correct. There are 300+ units in this development. Even the ones renovated since have to have this recurring problem.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

You have great photos but take more if you need it. I wouldn't finish that bath without better resolving this. 

I would simultaneously talk with at least the HOA president and sit down with an attorney to at least discuss this and your options. No reason this has to turn nasty or litigious but you may need some leverage.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Your bath is gutted and the wall is exposed. If your neighbors are contributing to the mold the wall will stay wet because they're still using their baths.
If it has stayed dry, it was an issue with your bath.
You can start rebuilding when you resolve the mold remediation.
Ron


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

My suggestion is to seal THEIR mold out of YOUR space any way you can. If you can get cooperation out of the HOA or the neighbors, go for it. Chances are though your neighbors are not going to want tear out their tub surround and reno their bathroom until they are good and ready to do so. 

Now, as to how to seal out their problem. I suggest you get some one inch thick high density extruded foam sheets for the home improvement store of your choice (DOW is blue, Owens Corning is pink). One inch is adaquate because you are not using it for thermal insulation. You cut that to fit in between your wall studs against that nasty moldy drywall. Then you fill in the gaps around the edges of your foam sheets and any holes with Great Stuff "Gaps and Cracks". You do not need to glue the foam sheets to the back of your neighbor's wall. The Great stuff them hold it in place. 

The other thing is how ridgid are those metal studs? They should already be plumb and flush. If they are, that is a big plus where your new tile surround is concerned. But If there is a lot of give to them as you push in, you may want to consider stiffining them up with some 2X2 or 2X3 lumber, thatever you can fit in between there and secure them to the studs with screws. That way you won't have to worry about cracking your grout if you lean too hard on the wall.

Once that mess is sealed in and your walls are prepped, I think you have the steps for tiling already.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't mean to throw more mud in your eye, but before you start putting it back together, don't forget one of the things you pulled out was:



> 5/8" Firecode board


I'm not going to pretend to be knowledgeable in this area, but my understanding is there are codes regarding firebreaks between apartments (those pesky codes again) so you probably want to do a bit more research and get this back in.


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Ron6519 said:


> Your bath is gutted and the wall is exposed. If your neighbors are contributing to the mold the wall will stay wet because they're still using their baths.
> If it has stayed dry, it was an issue with your bath.
> You can start rebuilding when you resolve the mold remediation.
> Ron


Ron - its both that contributed.. but my side is going to be solved (partially, as the ventilation issue will always be there) as I rebuild to be water/moisture proof properly (based on guidance I've learned here). My issue is their side and _containing_ as best I can, as I clearly can not force them to deal with it. I'm not really prepared to leave my master bathroom like this for an indeterminate amount of time while I wait for my neighbors to perhaps redo their bathroom. So, I'm looking for the best "containment" strategy here I guess.



Jim F said:


> My suggestion is to seal THEIR mold out of YOUR space any way you can. If you can get cooperation out of the HOA or the neighbors, go for it. Chances are though your neighbors are not going to want tear out their tub surround and reno their bathroom until they are good and ready to do so.
> 
> Now, as to how to seal out their problem. I suggest you get some one inch thick high density extruded foam sheets for the home improvement store of your choice (DOW is blue, Owens Corning is pink). One inch is adaquate because you are not using it for thermal insulation. You cut that to fit in between your wall studs against that nasty moldy drywall. Then you fill in the gaps around the edges of your foam sheets and any holes with Great Stuff "Gaps and Cracks". You do not need to glue the foam sheets to the back of your neighbor's wall. The Great stuff them hold it in place.


Jim - I'm curious about the foam sheets vs. poly sheeting? Any pros/cons? 



> The other thing is how ridgid are those metal studs? They should already be plumb and flush. If they are, that is a big plus where your new tile surround is concerned. But If there is a lot of give to them as you push in, you may want to consider stiffining them up with some 2X2 or 2X3 lumber, thatever you can fit in between there and secure them to the studs with screws. That way you won't have to worry about cracking your grout if you lean too hard on the wall.
> 
> Once that mess is sealed in and your walls are prepped, I think you have the steps for tiling already.


Good idea... some are not as rigid as I would like, was going to get some metal studs to butt up against, I wasn't sure you could "mix" wood and metal studs.



Blondesense said:


> I don't mean to throw more mud in your eye, but before you start putting it back together, don't forget one of the things you pulled out was:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to pretend to be knowledgeable in this area, but my understanding is there are codes regarding firebreaks between apartments (those pesky codes again) so you probably want to do a bit more research and get this back in.


 Good eye... thanks, I was planning on reinstalling the firecode board first. Man, ya'll are good!! :thumbup:

Thanks all, keep it coming!! I'd go crazy if it wasn't for all the help/responses. I truly appreciate it all!


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Blondesense said:


> I don't mean to throw more mud in your eye, but before you start putting it back together, don't forget one of the things you pulled out was:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to pretend to be knowledgeable in this area, but my understanding is there are codes regarding firebreaks between apartments (those pesky codes again) so you probably want to do a bit more research and get this back in.


I thought about that too but let's face it that entire condo is so boogered up already between the lack of external ventillation for the dryer and bath vents and the mold running rampant. I figured he would be fire protected enough between the neighbor's moldy 5/8" drywall and the 1/2" CBU, thinset and tile he is putting up.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Foam board pros: If properly applied and sealed it will keep out moisture, vapor and air. Your neighbor's mold could grow 2 inches thick and it won't effect you on your side. If it were an outer wall I believe it has an R value of around 10 per inch. Thermal insulation is not important here or you would want the two inch thock stuff. It may add some sound insulation but not as efficiently as some of the wooly type insulations.

Cons: Well, it is a little expensive, buy the larger sheets- 4X8 and cut to size rather than the 2X8 size. It is flammable so should be isolated from electrical cable and open flames. 

Here's an archived pic from my bathroom project.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Whatever you use there should get approved by local BI.
Because Foam board is highly flammable, using it here may
compromise the fire rating of that wall.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You seem to be under a misconception about this.
You can't contain someone elses water. All you can do is trap it in the wall. Once it's trapped, the mold cycle will begin again and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
I'd speak to your neighbor about this. If he blow's you off, you can move or get a lawyer.
Ron


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

If there is evidence of water coming in from your neighbors side, and you've said there is, then point it out to them. If they choose not to do anything contact a lawyer. I'm not one to deal with lawyers but in this case there are valid reasons. One being it is a risk to you and your families health and welfare, and it has the potential to be a monetary risk. What is the value of a house filled with mold? It's a lot less than one without. Try to get a loan on a place with mold, you can't, until it has been "remediated."

For your wife, doesn't she understand that whatever you do, without fixing the problem, means that it'll only need to be repaired again? At substantial cost.

I'd also consider the board of health. The health hazards of mold are known. Covering it up is not the correct solution.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Because it is not only flammable but burns and melts hot? Knowingly using foamboard in an interior space could completely negate your fire insurance claim (or that of your neighbors) should something dreadful happen. And if the buyer's inspector spots it when you sell this thing you are going to be asked to remove it or the deal will collapse. 

If you use it, and I wouldn't since you will be violating fire code, keep it away from electrical as mentioned. But doing this immediately negates what you were trying to accomplish with it does it not? You will no longer have the seal you want. 

You're trying to dodge something here you really need to deal with. I understand the frustration but if you bandaid this it is just going to come back to bite you, probably at a time you are unable to deal with it, if you don't address it now. And what if your neighbor does his/her bath next year, finds mold inside, and insists you tear yours apart again because they did go to the HOA or consult an attorney? Sorry.

I actually don't mind most lawyers but still use them mainly for air tight and fair to both parties contracts and I pay good ones. In more years than I care to share I have litigated once (other than for liens and collection) and been litigated against once. I prevailed but that is not the issue. A good lawyer can establish a playing field you don't have right now. 

A good one will ask if you have talked with the HOA or the neighbor before huffing and puffing at anyone. 

By the way, do you speak to your immediate neighbor? Have you at least shown them what is going on? Whether they know it or not they are as involved and at risk as you are at the moment. More so if you install that foamboard. You might be surprised at the level of cooperation even if a bathroom renovation was not on the top of their priority list.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

The way I see it you have two options at this point.

1) Replace the firebreak, seal everything up as well as you can, built your shower and cross your fingers. Maybe let your neighbors have a peek at what's growing in their wall if you feel like it. 

OR

2) _Everyone_ gets involved: your neighbors, the HOA, the building department, and very possibly everyone's lawyers. And if you're lucky you may get your shower finished in two or three years. Your HOA regulations need to change. Do you want to make it your battle, or do you want to live with a damp moldy bathroom?

I'm not going to recommend one plan of action over the other. 

The only option I see between the two is to have a friend in the complex go to the building department and say "I'm thinking of remodeling my bathroom, but the HOA won't allow any ventilation. What can I do?"


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Blondesense said:


> The only option I see between the two is to have a friend in the complex go to the building department and say "I'm thinking of remodeling my bathroom, but the HOA won't allow any ventilation. What can I do?"


Careful with this one. The building department will pull the inspections to see who took the bribes to sign off on this in the first place. They will insist on having a look behind all walls and could call the health department to have everybody replace the baths all at once. 

Try getting rid of your place under those circumstances. Hopefully the HOA will realize the sensible thing to do hear is help you and your neighbor out to start and others as the need for renovations continue.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

sdsester said:


> Careful with this one. The building department will pull the inspections to see who took the bribes to sign off on this in the first place. They will insist on having a look behind all walls and could call the health department to have everybody replace the baths all at once.
> 
> Try getting rid of your place under those circumstances. Hopefully the HOA will realize the sensible thing to do hear is help you and your neighbor out to start and others as the need for renovations continue.


In 1979/80, what's there might have met code. I doubt anybody's going to pull out records to see what may have occured 30 years ago. More likely, since mold is unregulated, they are going to leave it to the residents and HOA to figure out how to proceed. The only thing they will be concerned with is that any remedial work is permitted. Another thought on isolating would be to use foil backed drywall for the first layer or use fire code mold resistant drywall like Sheetrock Mold Tough VHI Firecode.


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Maintenance 6 said:


> Another thought on isolating would be to use foil backed drywall for the first layer or use fire code mold resistant drywall like Sheetrock Mold Tough VHI Firecode.


Thanks - contacted local building supply about this, they have it.. Big Orange, predictably, does not....:jester: (why I hadn't know about it). Great idea!


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## KyGunator (Apr 24, 2011)

Wow, looks like alot of mold there. I would get a professional to take a look at it.

If you plan to do it yourself, I did a quick search for a guide: mold removal

Good luck with getting rid of it!


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## mikeylikesit580 (Sep 28, 2010)

LEVI, hows it going?


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Mikey - thanks for checking in.

You all have been very very helpful with suggestions, advice and responses. I'll walk you through the last couple weeks - not TOO much has happened on the overall project due to stopping to figure this out, Passover holiday and some travel.

- Bought a powerful HEPA room filter for our bedroom.
- I went in with the room sealed off w/ poly at the door, respirator mask, goggles, gloves, work jeans, long sleeves and work shoes and a bandana (no skin exposed) w/ some bleach and water mix, along with a big sponge roll of paper towels and some Fantastic spray and cleaned off as much of the mold off the back of my neighbor's firecode board and the studs that I could. I took some steel wool and cleaned off my metal studs from rust and corrosion. Put everything inside a double-bagged setup of those Hefty contractor bags. :donatello:arty::boat: (<-- all my emotions)

It was disgusting... the mold literally was a LAYER on there.. like one pass with a paper towel just smudged it is the best I can describe. Went through almost an entire roll of paper towels (Costco size too!!) and then with the sponge. I've had a dehumidifier running in there since I opened the walls and kept that going to continue to dry out. I probably should have burned that clothing, but put it in the wash by itself right away. Ran the HEPA filter outside the bathroom on high for the night 

Next day -- and here's where I'm sure I'm going to get some flack, but I'll explain below my thinking -- I came back in w/ some Zinsser Perma Guard (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ooglebase-_-D24X-_-202454640&locStoreNum=2807) and sealed their board up from my side. Used a few coats just to be safe. I also used some rustoleum on my studs where there was some corrosion/rust going on. (A few of you mentioned those might be compromised, and I took that to heart and sistered up to them as well with fresh studs).

Next post is the rationale...


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

OK - LeviDIY, what in the %*&@ are you thinking??

I ask this to myself nearly every day on many other issues too, so I'm used to it.

My wife and I thought a lot about this. We weighed all the options:
- Neighbors: we casually mentioned this, and they really had no clue what we were talking about. I believe they are Russian or Eastern European, and I only was able to talk to the wife (not to be sexist at all, but she did not seem to be the "handy" one in the house, if there was one). I told her the issues, offered to show her face to face the problems, but she said she's tell her husband, and of course we never heard anything again.

- County inspectors: like some have mentioned, that's stirring the hornets nest. We hope one day to sell this and move up (after many lessons learned), and I don't know how well that would go if we seriously cause a mess on the code front, plus who knows who was paid off.

- HOA: this is something I am pursuing, and have some time as the walls are still open for a bit as we construct the shower base/pan, move the drain, etc. I want the president to see what I'm talking about. At this point its not even about the mold (see above post)... its about the return of the mold... the main issue: ventilation. That must change. That will require major work on all units/buildings... it will require major assessments. 

My wife and I decided we were not willing to wait the weeks, or more realistically months or never for the HOA to discuss and determine whether to do a major assesment to fix all the buildings. IF that utlimately happens, we will have to do what we need to do.

I was/am still a little worried about the sealing of their wall.. that locks in moisture as I understand and I would guess probably accelerates the deterioration of the wall. I documented everything. The truth is, that wall is already deteriorated and compromised, so I don't believe its possible to make it worse... :jester:

I don't feel 100% good about it, to be honest. If it were just me, I can handle not having a master bath for a while. There was pressure from the wife... and to be perfectly frank, I think I partly justified it as "everyone else is doing it" - I __KNOW__ that's wrong.. but I'm just telling you how I did it here... 

As for the project.. it moves on... in the showcase thread, I've got to update that soon... after the Zinsser cured (I love that stuff), put up the insulation and we are about ready to get the CBU on the walls after the pan is done... 

Onward..


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