# Old felt left on



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Depends on codes and inspections. Activate a lein. Materials and labor have to be paid. Obviously, I am not a lawyer, but if work is performed, it is to be paid for unless there is a discrepancy that can be mended.

It's really pointless, but from now on, give the people some new felt, eh.........

Where we are pictures of the sheathing and I&W are all that is required, but I take pics of everything because as you can see here, some homeowners are very devious sometimes.


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

Old ways are not always the best with new shingles.
Some people are not aware that some fiberglass shingles are manufactured with a porous fiberglass matte, these less expensive shingles start to weep water(have seen it personally) Old shingles had a solid paper core therefore felt was not required AT ALL!
I am not going to start naming shingles but there was a good reason they made felt manditory with some products.
The old ways of your father may not even apply today.
Follow the manufacturers instructions.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

That is a very outrageous claim Dale....sure you want to stick with that one?

I believe your theory on felt dripping, but not the shingles. Are you sure you have the story straight?


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Any proper reroof has new underlayment. For good deck inspection the old underlayment needs to be removed. I don't know if withholding payment is the proper think to do but I can understand the HO being upset. The felt acts as a secondary barrier should the water ever get past the shingles, and it does and can. It is not a question of "if," but a question of "when." Not to mention that in any roofing job this is included in the cost, because how could you possibly know it would stay intact until you were done ripping off. So now you have added cost that was never used and to the HO it appears you are charging for work and material that you are not in fact doing. 
Just because your dad has been doing it 100 years doesn't make it right. I don't know of any shingle manual, construction book, or shingle company that advocates not removing and replacing the shingle underlayment. Do you? Sounds like a scheme to make extra money off of a job.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I would never accept re-roofing without new felt
One of the least expensive things to replace & you leave it :no:
How do you tell what the roof decking is like without removing the felt?


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Scuba_Dave said:


> How do you tell what the roof decking is like without removing the felt?


Not saying you are wrong Dave, but you can tell by uh...umm....being a Pro. J/K
When you pull the nails or when you install new paper you can tell. When inspecting sheathing(which is a real inspection here on reroofs) it's real hard to see the staples in the sheathing anyhow. You can tell by walking on the roof and hammering on it. :thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Old felt should NEVER be left on


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Old felt should NEVER be left on


Tell us why?


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Can you remove I&W? No you can't. I wonder how that is inspected? Hmmmm....... That is the bottom 6 feet or more of the roof. Probably an area that should be checked, right? How do we do that?


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## marky25 (Apr 25, 2009)

I gotta agree with MJW people.It's easy to tell.I personally leave it on (except for where the ice and water shield goes) and put new 15# felt on provided its not all wrinkled.


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

MJW said:


> That is a very outrageous claim Dale....sure you want to stick with that one?
> 
> I believe your theory on felt dripping, but not the shingles. Are you sure you have the story straight?


I am not going to argue with myself (I saw it)
Dale Chomechko


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Dale is correct. I've pulled too many lately that looked perfectly normal, and water was penetrating the shingles everywhere. No hole in the shngles either. As the felt deteriorated, the water made it into the homes. One rep told me that the new shingles would leak without felt. That's not saying much for one of the largest shingle companies around.
Lot of roofs going south in 4-8 years lately.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Must still be using GAF?


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

No, actually Gaf was not the culprit.
Not that I would have ever bought Gaf(huge granule loss)
Elk was my shingle of choice & now that they are owned by Gaf & we get the same Elk shingle out of the same plant(Shafter)I continue to put on about 60% Timberline/Prestique
Certainteed (about 30%)entered or market about 2 years ago & they make very good products. But if you check some of there installation instructions, your used felt would void a warranty.
The other 10% we do is synthetic slates & cedar & used felt woul not fly with them either.
For the sake of $250 why would I try to save it?
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing


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## marky25 (Apr 25, 2009)

well why can't I put new felt over top of old flat nonwrinkled felt how does this void a warrantee tell me the page on the manufactures warrentee please as I will avoid this company


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## Dale Chomechko (Mar 11, 2008)

I am not sure if new felt over old would void a warranty.
If I am at that point spending a few extra minutes to remove the old felt & check the roof deck seems like a good idea.
I put in all my quotes to check the roof deck.
Our crews had 3 of them last week that needed repairs, one was pretty major.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc


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## Ron7 (May 14, 2011)

*Shed Apex roof*

Can you lay the new felt on top of the old


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Ron7 said:


> Can you lay the new felt on top of the old


 
Its better to remove all the felt prior to adding new.How is it possible to check for saturated/rotted/deteriorated decking or any other problem.

This post is from 2009


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## Ron7 (May 14, 2011)

*New felt on top of old*



Roofmaster417 said:


> Its better to remove all the felt prior to adding new.How is it possible to check for saturated/rotted/deteriorated decking or any other problem.
> 
> This post is from 2009


If you know that there is no saturated/rotted/deteriorated decking or any other problems and the old felt is still flat with no bubbles creasers etc. What then can you lay new onto old.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Ron7 said:


> If you know that there is no saturated/rotted/deteriorated decking or any other problems and the old felt is still flat with no bubbles creasers etc. What then can you lay new onto old.


IMHO the only way to be sure is to be able to visually inspect the decking.I have had homeowners tell me that all looked good from the attic.Once the roof was off and the felt,I found plywood that was unsuitable for a new roof application.

It has been done (reuse) but I feel much better knowing the decking was in fact suitable.I install my roof systems to manufacture specifications.Personally I do everything I can to make sure the roofs are installed over a suitable decking to conform with warranty restrictions.And IMO that means removing the existing felt for a proper visual inspection.

Besides I am charging the customer for a complete tear off.My contract states the removal of material down to the decking.Felt included.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Or just don't tear anything off and do a "recover".


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

I don't have a problem with leaving some of the old felt on. Any potentially rotten wood has usually been pushed against by a tear-off tool or walked on. And experience is going to tell us to be on the lookout for rot in certain areas (around penetrations, valleys, bottom edge, etc). We often do re-roofs on pine board sheathing and the existing felt is often stuck in sap bleeds. If it puts up much of a fight, we'll pick a different battle. 

But, new underlayment should be installed regardless of whether the old was removed or not. 

I think this is the basis for the question. It sounds like the OP re-shingled directly over old felt. Bad idea, if for no reason than it's an obvious cut corner. Makes the person writing the check wonder what other corners have been cut.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

MJW said:


> Or just don't tear anything off and do a "recover".


 
Nice one MJW,,,:thumbup:

You caught me slipping,,,:whistling2:


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I would hate to be the home owner/s hiring a contractor who don't/won't know if there is bad sheathing or not until he/she gets the felt torn off.

I remove the old felt for safety issues, stepping on top of a partially/poorly fastened piece of felt is bad even on low slopes, but especially on steep slopes.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Slyfox said:


> I would hate to be the home owner/s hiring a contractor who don't/won't know if there is bad sheathing or not until he/she gets the felt torn off.
> 
> I remove the old felt for safety issues, stepping on top of a partially/poorly fastened piece of felt is bad even on low slopes, but especially on steep slopes.


I never said that it was impossible to determine bad decking without removing the felt.I think its very important to be 100% sure.Besides the customer is paying for a complete build.Felt included.IMO


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## RickyBobby (Nov 19, 2009)

I am still in awe that people can strip old shingles without damaging the old felt. It seems to me that it would take more time being ginger enough to not damage the felt. In my experience, the stripping part sucked bad enough, let alone having to be careful enough to not damage the old felt.

Running new felt goes extremely fast anyway. One guy to roll, the other chasing behind with the tacker. I am with everyone else, pull all the old, properly inspect, and lay down all new.

Maybe I am just not experienced enough with the duck foot....:thumbup:


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

RickyBobby said:


> Maybe I am just not experienced enough with the duck foot....:thumbup:


 
*Another reason I have everyone pull felt is because of an experience.The roofer was a 15yr experienced crew leader.In 2000 up in N.County in STL they got hit with a major hailstorm.Golf balls and baseballs.In Spanish Lake a sub in N. County the roof was a 25sq. 1 layer.The crew finished the entire job in 4 hours.That evening the customer called to inquire about the roof.*

*The customer told me that my crew roofed over bad decking.I was furious.I set an appointment to meet the customer the next afternoon.I asked permission to look at the roof the next morning alone since I was in the immediate area.I contacted the crew leader and we met at the job the next morning.*

*The crew leader and I walked the entire roof and I found 1 spongy area in the valley which turned out to be 4' vertical,,upper L-R around 36".So we departed and agreed to meet in the afternoon with the customer.We met that afternoon and the customer was seriously pi**ed.I finally informed him that regardless I stand behind my work.He was happy with that and his attitude changed dramatically.*

*We all 3 went into his attic.I was shocked by what I saw.The plywood was busted from the underneath.Not alot but each sheet was damaged.The only thing I could imagine is these knuckleheads HAD to have used tear off spades to beat the nails down.I also thought maybe they were nailing so hard they were trying to push that gun completely thru the roof.I could not understand how the roof could be solid (walking)and have such damage underneath.The crew leader was mentally distressed.He swore they walked the entire roof and all was solid.I asked if the felt was removed and he said no.*

*I purchased more shingles and they were at the job 2 days later.When the roof was about COMPLETELY removed the crew leader called me because I wanted to inspect the decking topside.I pull up and they were wanting me to hurry up and look at the decking.*

*The plywood was busted in the seams.Many areas had the H clips knocked out.vertical splits were in the plywood.These splits were 2"-3" long.Without the felt the roof still seemed solid.I called the adjuster and he wanted some pix.I took pictures topside at the splits and underneath in the attic.I re decked the entire house with 1/2" CDX.I received a call from the adjuster a couple days later.*

*The insurance company forwarded the pix to damage assessment.His findings were the damage was from the density of the hail.They said that the hail in the area was 3"-3-1/2".But with the damage to the decking the hail had to be more like 4"-4-1/2" if not larger.They agreed to pay for the re decking and labor it took to install.I offered to pay for the labor if they covered the plywood.*

*I could have had the insurance company pay for it all BUT a serious error on the crew leaders part for NOT removing the felt.Had the felt been removed the splits would have been noticed leading to the discovery of the underneath damage to the plywood.Now after that ALL felt is removed.*

*That spongy piece of plywood I mention around the valley was the installation of that piece ran vertical making the decking weak.I just feel sight is a better sense rather than the feel aspect.But to each his own.We all have different opinions.But its for whatever works for you.*


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I agreed to do a roof for a fellow contractor back in 98' (he was having schedule issues) with out ever seeing the roof, just went by his measurements, etc.

I sent a crew out and with in an hour I got a call from the crew leader about sheathing issues.
After going to the job and inspecting it myself I discovered the crew leader was absolutely correct to stop work and call me because there was evidence of major (major as in possible full replacement) sheathing issues.

I contacted my friend (who sold the job), he contacted the home owner and got permission to go ahead with work.
We ended up re-sheathing the entire roof.

Two points to be made.
1. A good/experienced sales person/estimator should have seen the issues during the sales/estimate process, I would have.
(We would have known from the get go that it was at least a possibility)
2. A good/experienced crew leader should have noticed problems such as these before he/she ever got far enough into the tear off for the old felt to be a factor, my crew leader did.

Your sales person and crew leader made a mistake, for what ever reason, it happens, it's part of the learning/obtaining experience process.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

*Sly I can buy some of the comments and agree too.But removing the felt will eliminate alot of guessing.Just leaving the felt on serves no purpose in my opinion.Its not difficult to remove as can be seen on windy days.*

*Try asking each customer if they would like to keep the felt or tear it off like they are paying for.*

*Deteriorated and rotted decking is common.That is why we have cost per sheet and the cost per foot in the contracts.*

*I feel and will continue to feel(Until proven otherwise)that felt needs to be removed to have a 100% clear unobstructed view of the decking.*

*Also my contracts state that at anytime I feel that any area of the roof deck is unsuitable then I will pull the affected area and replace to conform with warranty stipulations pertaining to a suitable roof deck.*


*It seems difficult to do that with the felt remaining.I think its silly to say someone should not be hired if they cannot tell bad decking from good,with the felt on.I can but I don't need to because I tear my felt off and let my eyes perform.*


*I do inspect a roof for sunken areas etc. and bring it to the customers attention prior.*


*The other day I had 1 of my dogs attack the other and had an eye torn 1/2 way out of his socket.I called a vet and she said the eye would have to be removed,,,,without seeing it,,,yep right on the phone and the bill for doing so was $1611.00.*

*I took him to a vet a little farther away and he still has his eye and its 100% functionable.And the cost was $145.00*


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Roofmaster417 said:


> *Sly I can buy some of the comments and agree too.But removing the felt will eliminate alot of guessing.Just leaving the felt on serves no purpose in my opinion.Its not difficult to remove as can be seen on windy days.*
> 
> *Try asking each customer if they would like to keep the felt or tear it off like they are paying for.*
> 
> ...


I never suggested you were wrong for removing the existing/old felt.
I never suggested you shouldn't.
I never said I leave it.
I never said you could replace sheathing with out removing it.

I simply stated an experienced roofer will know there's sheathing or other wood issues before he/she ever gets to the point of removing it.

Your comment about not being able to KNOW FOR SURE until/unless you remove the existing/old felt is misleading at best.

Your scenario of the roofing situation showed human error issues that would have most likely been made even if the existing felt had been removed during the original tear off.

Your vet scenario shows the same lack of experience, lack of caring or human error.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Slyfox said:


> I never suggested you were wrong for removing the existing/old felt.
> I never suggested you shouldn't.
> I never said I leave it.
> I never said you could replace sheathing with out removing it.
> ...


 
I agree with you Sly,about the comment I made about ONLY knowing if unsuitable decking was present by removing the felt.My vet scenario showed the SAME lack of experience? and the lack of caring ? For once I am speechless.


You don't know me personally so for you to say that I don't care is insulting.I refuse to listen to your bullsh**.

The day you meet me in person and see the type of person I am and my devotion to the trade is the only time you have my permission to insult me.Not over the internet on some home improvement site.


The only human error on that job IMHPO is the salesperson and the crew leader.I accepted the responsibility as I should have and IMMEDIATLEY payed for the ENTIRE REROOF at a loss.,AS I SHOULD HAVE.BUT if the felt had of been removed during the course of the tear off then the damage would have been evident.


Yes the insurance came back to pay for 1/2 BUT I payed for the entire REROOF before the results.

Now SHOW ME how that is proof of NOT CARING??,,or experience???????


You know I might have came off as dark and out of control and if I am wrong with your intentions I am sorry.I have been in Joplin,Missouri and have seen some really heartbreaking things today.Many homes I roofed last summer are completely gone and a couple of the homeowners were killed as well.

I am sure alot of people are watching the joust between Sly and myself but please pray for Joplin.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't see where Sly said that you were to blame personally. Maybe I'm wrong.....

If the sales person and/or crew leader were the same person (YOU), this type of stuff could be avoided. This is why large companies have a lot of trouble with quality control. Glad you took care of it though.

I love it how people say "I this" and "I that", when they don't even have a hand on the job. Well, besides signing the contract.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

RM417, my prayers do go out to all the people hit by the storms.
Sucks that the "storm" season isn't even close to over yet and so much damage to life and property has occurred already.

I wasn't talking BS, nor was my comments meant to be insulting.

There were at least 2 mistakes.
1. Sales person didn't detect soft sheathing during his/her inspection of the structure at the time of the estimate.
2. An experienced crew leader never detected sheathing in so bad of shape that the entire structure had to be re-sheathed.
(An experienced labor should have noticed that while walking across the roof to toss the tear off into the dumpster)

I don't know you, but I do know roofing.

I'm not commenting about your commitment to the trade,
just the procedure that played out in the scenario you posted.


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