# Building permit to blow insulation into attic?



## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Hi everyone:

I'm in Toronto, Canada. I just got off the phone with a rep. at Toronto Building Services who insisted that I needed a building permit to blow fiberglas or cellulose insulation into the attic in my house.

I couldn't get a reference from him, because he hung up on me, accusing me of being "abusive" when my voice got louder saying "I have to get a BUILDING PERMIT for that!"

Can anyone confirm or deny this? IF it is true, any idea where it is in the legislation?


Thanks so much


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

What is needed for a permit varies a lot in different locales. Just before I moved from Orlando they passed a law stating permits were needed for any paint jobs that cost $1k or more. Some jurisdictions want permit money for just about everything while others are lax. I suspect your best bet is to calm yourself down and call them back to verify.


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## dj3 (Apr 27, 2020)

Not only they're living off permit fees, they also have the county assessor raise you property tax forever for the improvement. 
For most obvious improvements and improvements that have safety concerns, a permit is inevitable.
But adding insulation to an existing home? I know an inspection is required on new construction or additions only, which makes perfect sense. 
Find out whether existing insulation is grandfathered in your city. And don't call that same hot tempered "public servant". Or call insulation contractors, one of them should know.


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

I had already got an insulation company to come in and give me an estimate. The manager at that company told me he'd never heard of any such requirement.


I'll try calling the same gov't office tomorrow, maybe someone else will answer. I'm guessing that these requirements for permits will only increase in future, since gov'ts will be desperate for money and will always soak taxpayers. 



If anyone knows Ontario, Canada law, please...chime in.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Good luck. Only advice I can offer is don't tick off the inspector or whoever was in that office. Building codes are under local control so they can be different from other locations. However you are correct, that requirement should be referenced somewhere. Have you checked online? There may be a standard package of codes they follow, not familiar with Canada but usually similar to U.S. And what permits they charge for should be listed somewhere.

Bud


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Yes, I checked online. I found some regulations, but nothing relating to what I needed to know. The person who answers questions relating to my area of this city is working from home. I sent him emails 14 days ago, but have not received any reply. 

I'm going to ask a friend to call the office tomorrow where they can at least try to help us with the regulations questions. Pathetic non-service. It makes me so angry that this is where my taxpayer money goes.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The only reasoning can think of for requiring a permit is the municipality wanting to make your upgrade meet current requirements. That is common for changes. then there is the dollar aspect.

Sit tight as we may have some contractors in your area.

Bud

Did a search:
https://www.toronto.ca/services-pay...ding-permit/when-do-i-need-a-building-permit/

Under permit not needed it specifically states "adding or replacing insulation".


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Thanks everyone. I'm hoping someone who works in Ontario will chime in here...
Anyone?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Did you see my edit above?

Bud


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Yes, thanks. I saw that before I came here.




> Make structural or material alterations, such as
> 
> adding or removing walls (i.e., changing room sizes and/or uses)
> new windows or doors where there were none before
> ...


The thing is, I don't know if adding insulation is a "material" change. That's why I was calling my city's building services.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

This is the first I ever heard of insulation requiring a permit [other than new construction or remodeling] But some jurisdictions want their finger in the pot for every little thing. Adding insulation shouldn't change your structure any but it usually adds more value.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I think you will find that any jurisdiction with good energy codes for housing are likely to have permit/inspection requirements for insulating/re-insulating. 

In my jurisdiction, it’s an over the counter permit. They do inspect at job completion.

Personally, I don’t screw around with it. I hire a good contractor that will pull the permit/take care of everything. It’s money well spent. There is more to it than just blowing in the required depth of insulation when there are energy Codes involved.


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

I trust the insulation firm from whom I got the estimate. The manager seems very conscientious. An energy auditor with the Enbridge (gov't subisized) Home Energy Rebate program will have to come in after everything is done to confirm its validity. This is probably not the same as a city inspector coming in, but I'll find out about that when someone talks to Mr. Snowflake at the gov't tomorrow for me.


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## NeoHawk (Jun 13, 2020)

Whoa - remember one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar (cliche, I know) This is where a little old fashioned business schmoozing helps. If talking on the phone, a little exchange of pleasantries "Hi, how is your week going?" - people will be glad to off-load their list of whatever if you give them an ear - then you have a friend. Maybe they will be more helpful. Just keep in mind the "Win Friends and Influence People" approach. Remember your payday is getting what you need for your project and client. Even when we are frustrated with a bureaucrat.


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

I agree completely. I live that way 99.9% of the time myself. That last .1% of the time...mmmm...

I asked a friend to call the dep't for me and ask the questions. He was told by another rep. that the first guy I spoke with was wrong, and it was never necessary to get a permit for that type of blow-in insulation.

Now, I need to reach another hard to reach person to see if what I want to attempt is up to code. There's only one person to consult about specific building code in my area, and he's working from home. I emailed him twice in the last 4 weeks and not even an autoresponder reply.

Trying to get anything done during Covid sucks. But admittedly, these are first-world problems I'm dealing with. Thanks, you guys are just a goldmine of knowledge and experience.


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## joe-nwt (Jul 15, 2020)

Shplad said:


> Yes, thanks. I saw that before I came here.
> 
> 
> The thing is, I don't know if adding insulation is a "material" change. That's why I was calling my city's building services.


Right in the link it states:

3 Re-cladding of a house or small building (3 storeys or less) with non-combustible material other than brick or stone veneer;

4 *Adding or replacing insulation;
*
5 The replacement of windows or doors provided:
there is no change in the location or size of the window and/or door;
the structural support for the opening (i.e. lintel) is not affected; and
a new exit is not created;


What more do you need?


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

I don't see that in the link I posted. Heck, for some reason, I don't even see what I originally excerpted to post here. Have you got a link?


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## joe-nwt (Jul 15, 2020)

BUD9051 posted it.

https://www.toronto.ca/services-pay...ding-permit/when-do-i-need-a-building-permit/

When is a Building Permit Not Required?


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Hmm...what do you know, the SOB that was rude and kicked me off the phone twice at the city office was wrong about one of the most basic rules. I'm shocked.


Thanks.


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## argile_tile (Aug 1, 2020)

fiberglass is terrible. it will mold and you'll have to replace it later.

celluose is a good energy save - there are various kinds. only get the kind treated with some amount of BORON which is fire retardant. make sure it's not some kind susceptible to mold (i've had it - in general it does not get any mold - if obtained from a reputable dealer)

your fire marshal could and should reject celluose or fiberglass (both are highly flammable) unless you pay a little extra to get the "fire resistant" kind


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## argile_tile (Aug 1, 2020)

No: adding FIRE-SAFE insulation does not require a permit. Adding anything flammable DOES and will be rejected without "modification of the building".


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Argyle:


I doubt they sell cellulose insulation that isn't treated with boron-it would probably be illegal. Either way, the issue is not as simple as that. See above for electrical wiring challenge.


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## Dobarduff (Sep 14, 2021)

These rules differ from locality to locality. If you can tell us where you live, you could get a more secure answer. In my city, it seems we don't need permission. I was able to make changes in my yard without anyone's permission. But a friend of mine lives in another city where without the consent of someone above, and she could do nothing. That's why he turned to a specialist in real estate law and insurance law and gave her more information about the process. To make your life easier, turn to a specialist, and he will be able to tell you for sure if you need permission or not. The first conversation is free! 






*____*
the link: Bygglov och byggfrågor. Fråga juristen. - Advokatbyrå


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## Shplad (Nov 1, 2019)

Thanks so much for everyone's help. This became so complicated
and involved so much red tape I decided against it. Because I wanted
to try to hit the peak of the real estate market, I sold the house.

Thanks again for all your time.


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## quatsch (Feb 4, 2021)

For the next time:

It doesn't seem to be a structural issue.
I'd get his name [they keep a phone log] & write to the main office about this.
If they dismiss you, the local papers may want to pick up this story. Even if they don't, the paper will probably call the permitting dept. about this. If that happens the dept. might change their tune.

Keep records, make phone recordings (if one-party-taping is allowed in your area).


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

If a normal passerby cannot see that I am doing something, I don’t get a permit.


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