# Painting over Behr kitchen cabinet paint



## heimster14 (Mar 4, 2011)

My husband and I want to paint our cabinets again. The first time we use Behr Kitchen premier plus paint. (I think that is what it is called). Bad experience. Anyway, we want to use the Benjamin Moore Kitchen and bath. My question is what type of prep work do I need to do? Do I go as far as stripping the Behr from the cabinets before primering with Benjamin Moore? Thanks for anyones response.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

If it's not peeling or chipping, no need to remove it. Prep involves sanding the surface, washing it down with Trisodium Phosphate and water, then apply your Ben Moore. As long as the current finish is bonded to the surface, no removal or priming is necessary.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm no pro, but I think most kitchen finishes are somewhat glossy and therefore in order to paint over them, a sanding is required for better grab. 

You don't say what the problem was with the Behr, if it was the paint job, or the paint - but it might have been due to poor preparation. After all, prep is 80% of most paint jobs - particularly tough ones like this.

So, depending on what problem you had originallly, our response to how to fix it might differ. For example, if you didn't remove the greasy film on them before painting, no paint job would work - regardless of who's paint you used. But if you did remove the grease and sanded it, but don't like the colour, the prep would just involve IMO a good cleaning and sand paper.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

heimster14 said:


> My husband and I want to paint our cabinets again. The first time we use Behr Kitchen premier plus paint. (I think that is what it is called). Bad experience. Anyway, we want to use the Benjamin Moore Kitchen and bath. My question is what type of prep work do I need to do? Do I go as far as stripping the Behr from the cabinets before primering with Benjamin Moore? Thanks for anyones response.


hi heimster

dont use Benjamin Moores Advance

stick to an oil eggshell for best results (assuming that you dont want to use lacquer) benjamin moore touts their new Advance (a hybrid latex/oil) paint as the best thing since sliced bread. We tried it on one cabinet job recenty and got our butts kicked. it never really cures and chips off quite easily. I just called a customer two days ago to ask about how the Advance job was holding up. He is a very polite and soft spoken customer but he was very quick to say "my cabinets are sh --t" The Advance performed so poorly than I got all my money back from Bejamin Moore for the cost of the product for that paticular job (about $260.00) We do a ton of cabinetry work and will never use this paint again. Ive also spoken to the Benjamin Moore reps in my area and they all are saying that a ton a lot of complaints are coming in about this product. Just a friendly heads up.

regards
ra
www.vancouversbestpainters.com
www.vancouverindustrialpainting.com


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

These cabinets already have latex on them. Oil is out, except for oil primer.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> You called your customer 2 days ago? Yet you've already received a refund on the product? That's pretty fast. Did your Rep visit the job to ensure it was applied correctly? All of that being completed in 2 days...on a Weekend mind you, is pretty quick. I call BS


Like you said. First a rep. Would look at the job to make sure the application was correct and then if they determined there product was bad it will still take more than 2 days to get a refund. If the paint failed with in two days I would say its due to application error. I've never used the advance, but have used SW Pro Classic enamel, which also comes in a water clean up formula and I'm sure its similar to advance. Never had a problem with the Pro Classic. I would recommend an enamel also.


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

NCpaint1 said:


> You called your customer 2 days ago? Yet you've already received a refund on the product? That's pretty fast. Did your Rep visit the job to ensure it was applied correctly? All of that being completed in 2 days...on a Weekend mind you, is pretty quick. I call BS


we started the cabinet job 2 months ago and one day into i quickly realized that the product we were using, Advance, was garbage. i called the owner of the store and asked for a full refund, which he gave immediately. (he owns 5-7 stores) We contemplated changing products but decided to complete the job with Advance. 4 days ago i called the customer to see how it was holding up as I was interested in using this person as a reference. the customer told me his cabinets get discoloured when washed and chip easily. then he said that his cabinets are "sh--t" 

Our application was perfect.

No bs here painter, just the facts. 

Something is bound to go wrong when you start formulating incongruous wonky things like a latex/oil hybrid. 

www.vancouversbestpainters.com
www.vancouverindustrialpainting.com
www.604painter.com


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

housepaintingny said:


> Like you said. First a rep. Would look at the job to make sure the application was correct and then if they determined there product was bad it will still take more than 2 days to get a refund. If the paint failed with in two days I would say its due to application error. I've never used the advance, but have used SW Pro Classic enamel, which also comes in a water clean up formula and I'm sure its similar to advance. Never had a problem with the Pro Classic. I would recommend an enamel also.


No applicator error here hpny. No rep showed up as i dealt with the owner of the store. it didnt take more than 2 days to get a refund, it took 15 minutes. Tons of complaints coming in about this product. it also doesnt tint up well either.

ra
www.vancouversbestpainters.com
www.vancouverindustrialpainting.com
www.604painter.com


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> These cabinets already have latex on them. Oil is out, except for oil primer.


hi mathew

not always right but never in doubt eh. i like your confidence but you have it reversed. oil over latex, cool, latex over oil, not cool... cheers

ra
www.vancouversbestpainters.com
www.vancouverindustrialpainting.com
www.604painter.com


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## StevenH (Sep 9, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> The technology of mixing oil/water isn't new. In fact Moorgard/glo/life as been a hybrid product for over 15 years.
> 
> Embrace the new technology, with VOC laws becoming stricter, its only a matter of time before oil products as we know them will be obsolete.


Have any of you guys used Moorglo Semi-gloss lately? 
It seems the stuff does not like to level itself.


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

NCpaint1 said:


> So he refunded you and you continued using the now "free" product? Awesome.
> 
> It tints just fine with gennex colorants...I hope that's what they use
> 
> ...


nc

nice chatting with you. although using the "free" product was indeed awesome, as it turned out the entire batch was the wrong colour. (yes, the story just gets better)...... we had asked for "Almost Black"...a colour in Moores deck....what we got instead was a dark purple. When the job was entirely done the customers said..."what up with this purple...i thought we were getting Almost Black"...sure enough they were right. We re-did the entire job for free and I initially asked for $2500 from the store owner since it was his staff that let the mistint out the door but backed off when i was man enough to realize that I should have made sure of the colour myself. 

Maybe Advance is good for some things but for cabinets we're sticking to lacquer from now on. About oil being obsolete, my understanding is thats not going to be the case for the painting contractor. For Mrs Jones coming in off the street, yes, but all our reps have said to relax and that a few select oil products will *always* be available to the paint contractor

regards
ra
www.604painter.com


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

NCpaint1 said:


> I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the tint was the issue and not the product.


nc

there were two issues for me. the paint never seemed to cure enough in preparedness for the second spray application....even after 30 hrs dry time (thats why i got my refund). 

the mintint was another issue which had nothing to do with us getting a refund....unless you're suggesting that the colourants themselves had something to do with the inability of the product to cure in a timely fashion

regards

www.vancouversbestpainters.com


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

604-PAINTER said:


> hi mathew
> 
> not always right but never in doubt eh. i like your confidence but you have it reversed. oil over latex, cool, latex over oil, not cool... cheers
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I had it right. Oil will peel latex right off the wall. 
There are literally tens of thousands of older homes out there that originally were painted with oil that now have latex paint over them. Ask at the paint store, they will tell you. Latex over oil still needs a primer.


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Sorry, but I had it right. Oil will peel latex right off the wall.
> There are literally tens of thousands of older homes out there that originally were painted with oil that now have latex paint over them. Ask at the paint store, they will tell you. Latex over oil still needs a primer.


Matt

You initially said that cabinets had latex on them so oil is out of the question. Thats not true, and I dont have to "ask at the paint store" when I learned it 30 yrs ago. You can quite easily paint oil over latex with no issues whatsoever. As for oil peeling latex off the wall, that seems quite absurd as we do it all the time, and again, no issues. At least we agree that latex over oil need a primer....cheers.

www.vancouversbestpainters.com


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

As long as surfaces are properly prepared, sanded well and clean, oil will stick to latex and latex will stick to oil. There is no chemical reaction that causes one to reject the other. Sanding has been defined down to "scuff" from a proper and thorough hand sanding. In fact, the trend in painting today is no sanding. Latex and oil will both brittle over time and be prone to chipping and peeling, as they lose more vehicle over the long term. Proper refinishing on a regular schedule will keep surfaces from becoming brittle. Sanding does two things, it gives tooth to the existing finish for the new finish to bite and it removes the surface layer of the old film, which is the most degraded and oxidized part. I do a thorough hand sanding on all trim surfaces, most all wall surfaces, and a good bit of all ceilings. I switch finishes from latex to oil and oil to latex with no primer, have been for years, and have had no problems. And, I've been around long enough to realize any problems. I've repainted things where I know I made the switch with no peeling issues. However, I do use and recommend a *bonding primer* for special cases like cabinetry, and previously stained or clear coat finishes. I ask a lot of questions everywhere I go, and I've asked a lot of people who know more than I about the fundamentals of paint if I'm okay with that. As long as you're sanding the way you say, they say, you're fine. Primers and underbodys are good for putting a new stable surface on an excessively old, brittle, or otherwise degraded surface prior to putting new finish on them. Customers are allowing too much time between repaints and painters are not doing proper prep.Prep is the most important phase in painting, and sanding is the key to the integrity of the job.


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## 604-PAINTER (Mar 2, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> As long as surfaces are properly prepared, sanded well and clean, oil will stick to latex and latex will stick to oil. There is no chemical reaction that causes one to reject the other.


You may think so jsheridon but the ovewhelming evidence is against you. I wish you were right, I really really do beause I would love to just sand and be done with it.....but

painting latex over oil, regardless of how much you sand is **never** recommended. Even with latex DTM (direct to metal) where they, (the retailers, manufacturers etc) say "just give er a good sand and have at er"...this specially formulated paint fails miserably. you have to let it cure for a couple of months and even then it fails the thumb nail scratch test (and people are not going to be using those doors for two months?)

Painting latex over oil with just vigorous sanding is a suicide mission; I thought every painting contractor knew that.



regards
www.vancouversbestpainters.com


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Very interesting discussion here. This is why I have a top pro painter that I can call in for the tough jobs.

There is a lot to know about painting--especially when the surfaces are dis-similar.-Mike--


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

604-PAINTER said:


> You may think so jsheridon but the ovewhelming evidence is against you.
> Painting latex over oil, regardless of how much you sand is **never** recommended. Even with latex DTM (direct to metal) where they, (the reatailers, manufacturers etc) say "just give er a good sand and have at er"...this specially formulated paint fails miserably.
> 
> Painting latex over oil with just sanding is a suicide mission; I thought everyone knew that.
> ...


Don't think I ever remember reading that warning on the back of any cans, and I pretty much read all new labels. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer, with liablility on the line, would tell you to skip such a vital step that would cause their product to fail if they knew otherwise. In fact, I don't think I've heard or seen that in any product literature or TDS. They specify every substrate and previous finish condition but never anything about switching from oil to latex. Maybe it's just so innate and well known that mentioning it is a waste of time, but warning you against ingesting it isn't. Since I've never had a problem with it and haven't had any paint companies tell me so, I'll continue to chalk it up to an old wives tale and just sand as we're supposed to. Human error is the single largest contributor to paint failure.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

It's not a chemical reaction. It's that the latex is much more flexible surface and will expand and contract at a much higher rate loosening up either the oil on top of it or causing it to break it's bond with the surface below it. I highly doubt you are doing it all the time. There are plenty of horror stories on the internet of people putting oil over latex and seeing their paint come right off. Also, oil based paint with their much smaller molecules will easily pass through latex paint which is a porous breathable finish. 

And yes, ask at the paint store because they hear about and give advice on 50+ jobs a day where as most painting crews do around 3 or fewer a week.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?


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## Rcon (Nov 20, 2009)

604-PAINTER said:


> ... you have it reversed. oil over latex, cool, latex over oil, not cool... cheers


Your assertion is incorrect sir. You can paint latex over oil but not oil over latex. 

Oil is brittle, while latex is flexible. Therefore - hard over soft - no good. 

As for putting a latex over oil without priming - it can be done, just depends on the product you're using. If you're using cheap product, then priming and aggressive sanding become extremely important. If you're using the right quality products, a scuff sand is often enough. If you're using behr, prime 5 times and sand with 20 grit using a belt sander first - the paint should stick after that. 

OP -

Your best bet for your cabinets, as already mentioned, is a thorough cleaning and sanding, tack cloth the dust off, and paint with Insl-x cabinet coat. 

Since your cabinets have already been painted, a latex primer would work just fine under your topcoats. Zinsser bulls-eye water based will work. 

I've used cabinet coat on several cabinet repaints and had nothing but success with it. You can purchase it from Benjamin Moore or General Paint (depending on your location). 

The key to a successful cabinet job is proper prep. Clean clean clean and sand sand sand.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

jsheridan said:


> Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?


While temperature extremes may not be as bad interior, it is still there as well as humidity. They still have to leave gaps around the edges on interior hardwood floors for expansion. You still will have cold and hot walls during the seasons. What if the heat or AC fails?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Rcon said:


> If you're using behr, prime 5 times and sand with 20 grit using a belt sander first - the paint should stick after that.


I was going to comment, but I guess you can probably hear me laughing from there..... :laughing:

DM


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan said:


> Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?


I'm with you there.:yes:


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## Ole34 (Jan 31, 2011)

Rcon said:


> Your assertion is incorrect sir. You can paint latex over oil but not oil over latex.
> 
> .


 

gone for a bit an now its 


*oil over latex= NO *


*latex over oil= YES *


save all that nonesense about SPECIAL products etc etc ...........in general *YOU DO NOT PUT LATEX OVER OIL* unless you prime and i dont care what your book says


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I will put this whole mess out of it's misery

You can paint almost anything( maybe not air or water) with the proper prep work.:yes:

There now, no more fussing.:laughing:


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