# Dirty HardiBacker? Screw heads?



## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Pele,

*Don't ever do that again? What were you thinking?*

That stuff is *dangerous*, it contains *silica* and other bad things. You can not use it as a floor surface to walk on. 

Will it take good quality thinset? Maybe, probably, I don't know.

I'd want the screw heads flush. Phillips heads are useless. Square-drive work well. Your tip must have been worn. I found that if you drive the screw till it makes contact, then back it out a bit, then drive it home, it'll work better. Either that or use roofing nails as I always used to do until I switched to Ditra. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

What I was thinking was, I can only eat microwaved meals for so long... And running a hot plate on a 15 Amp Aluminum wired circuit is not advisable. It takes 20 minutes to get a pot of water boiling and the connection in the Federal Pacific breaker panel is usually smoking at that point as well.


Like I said, there's a backstory.

I bought this house that for all intents and purposes should've been a foreclosure or short sale. The previous owners concealed a rodent infestation such that the FHA appraiser, home inspector, and termite/wood destroying insect inspector didn't notice a problem. Only because of a misunderstanding in the contract did I find out about it at the closing table.
VA law states that the buyer pays for a wood destroying insect inspection, but the seller got one also. I got a call from one of them indicating "signs of mice"...

No legal recourse because my only contingency on the contract were any items that showed up on the home inspection. Home inspector didn't find rodents because he's not allowed to move property in an occupied house.

Upon hiring an exterminator, I found that the rats in the back yard were well fed enough that they weren't eating the mice on the inside of the house... Just killing them and leaving the bodies. The mice inside the house had taken completely over the kitchen and had nested in the insulation in the walls.

To get rid of the rats, I'd have to get rid of the mice...
To get rid of the mice, I'd have to eliminate their food stores in the walls...


I went into the kitchen swinging a crowbar. Getting to the nests in the insulation meant taking down the drywall... But there were cabinets in my way.

Once the drywall was down, I found all sorts of hackjob electrical and plumbing work. Junction boxes hidden in the wall, joining copper wire to aluminum wire without anti-oxidant compound, 14 gauge wire on 20 Amp circuits, and somehow either the ice maker in the fridge was running on hot water or the dishwasher was running on cold water because they were both Teed into the same line.


So basically, a new kitchen from the ground up including refeeding wire across the house.
Then I found out about the bat problem when I was running wiring through there. Apparently my pest control solution didn't take them into consideration.


I've also had to deal with the fun of becoming a new parent through all this.



I figured tile would be a cosmetic issue. I didn't realize the cement board was dangerous. There were no warning labels on it.
I figured it was fiberglass cloth in cement... All cutting of it was done outside.


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## funfool (Oct 5, 2012)

I congratulate you on taking the time to do it right.
Although I would not have put down the hardibacker until ready for tile. Is no changing that now.
Just clean it good as you did, I see no reason for special thinset, would think the product recommended from the tile manufacturer will be fine.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Good gravy Pele, that is unreal, that is a bunch of work and money. I wish you all the best in your rebuild.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Holy crap Pele, what a mess. Congrats for staying with it and trying to correct everything. 

I agree to just use a good quality modified thinset. Be sure to dampen it or mist it just before you spread thinset to every area. Hardie is porous. Did you tape the seams? Have you checked that the floor is very flat? 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

I put down the HardiBacker because it covers ALL of the subfloor in the kitchen. It's under the cabinets.

When demoing the kitchen, I found that it appears that this kitchen went through several different flavors of flooring in the mid 1970's... Which is interesting because it was built in 1973.

There was a top layer of Avocado Green Linoleum, Below that were brown faux Parquet lick-n-stick 12 inch vinyls, Below that were thick (approx 1/8th inch) 9 inch square tiles. I assume those were Asbestos. Under all of that was 3/4 inch Particle board that was glued AND stapled to the plywood subfloor.

I decided to remove it all as an assembly to reduce dust. I was fairly successful in getting a prybar under the particle board and getting it up in almost complete sheets.


After getting it all up, I measured the plywood. It came out to be a hair under 5/8ths. 19/32nds... I'm now finding out 19/32nds is 5/8ths in carpenter math, kinda like a 2x4 is really 1.5x3.5
Since the HardiBacker recommends a 5/8ths minimum plywood subfloor, I thought my subfloor was subpar and I decided to use 1/2 inch HardiBacker rather than the 1/4 inch stuff. It's also the Mold/Mildew/Moisture resistant stuff.

Under the cabinets and on top of the HardiBacker is 1/2 inch pressure treated plywood to make up for the Height difference that the tile would make.

Other than that, the install of the HardiBacker is pretty typical to the install guide. Screws every 8 inches, 1/4 inch trowel for the thinset under the Hardi, The plywood and Hardi joint lines are not in the same places, No four corners touching...

I'm pretty much looking at the only imperfection being the dirt and the screw heads sticking up just slightly.
I'm not sure it was the bit being worn out, I got a whole box of new bits and brand new ones were snapping off too.
I _could_ go out and swap out the Phillips screws with square head ones, but the thinset under the Hardi has dried. I'm not sure if that's a good idea... Thoughts?



Also, point of note, I did call in a tile contractor for an estimate on completing the job... They were saying that they'd run a belt sander over the dirty HardiBacker to clean it up for the thinset to adhere better.
If this stuff is really that dangerous, then I'm glad I didn't go with them.


Anyhow... I've got bags of Maipei Thinset, boxes of Ceramic tile, spacers, grout, and all the stuff I need sitting here in my living room. I'm just trying to make sure that this tile job is going to last.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Well, 5/8" ply as the subfloor huh? Hardie says 5/8" t&g if in perfect condition and installed correctly is good enough as the base for their backer for ceramic/porcelain. I don't know how your '70's subfloor can meet those specs. Plus they always note with *'s that it has to meet L360 max deflection, the subfloor and the joists I mean. That floor sounds a bit shaky to me. 

Talking of the joists, you should tell us their size, species and grade, on center spacing, and unsupported span. This will tell us about the joists' deflection.

It didn't make the floor stiffer when you decided on 1/2" instead of 1/4". Neither adds structural strength, just a tile-friendly surface for tiles. Actually, 1/4" has a higher compression strength, but it's not really relevant anyway.

It may not matter in your case, but you should not use pressure treated indoors. It starts out too wet, and tends to deform as it dries. 

I guess there's no changing what you've got now, so go ahead and install the tiles. Do check and get back with the joist info though.

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

Great... maybe this was a bad idea and I should have gotten a pro in the beginning.

I don't have the equipment to test the deflection of the floor or joists. Nor can I determine the species or grade of the joists unless it's printed on them. (Which I'll find out when I start gutting the basement ceiling.)

The best I can tell you is that the joists are 2x10 on 16 inch centers. Longest unsupported span is about 12 ft between the center I-beam of the house and the back cinder block wall of the basement.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

We use span-charts to confirm deflection. Lumber is stamped, but often can't be found. Most joists are SYP or Doug Fir, grade #2. If they span about 12', you'll be fine. As I said before min. spec is L360 deflection and you're probably better that that. 

The subfloor is your weakest link. Can't get any worse than that. How does it feel?

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

I figured the deflection test involves some sort or computer measurement device that puts out a specified force and measures how much the floor moves...
I didn't realize it was a calculation that's on a table...

Subfloor is fairly solid. Only squeaked in a few spots and that quit when I started driving screws for the HardiBacker into it.


Would it be a bad idea to pull out all my Phillips screws and install the square drive screws since they tend to go in a bit better?

There were two boxes of screws next to each other at Home Depot... The Phillips ones were the "Backer-On" official HardiBacker endorsed ones... The Square drive ones were generic "Rock On" and mentioned Wonderboard and other Cement type boards on the label, it said on the label to specifically use "Backer-On" screws for HardiBacker.


My other thought was to put down a very thin layer of Self-Leveling cement that'd cover any imperfections in the surface.


Good news is that the dirt is coming up with nothing more than water. After a couple rinses, it looks almost new. I'm going to start taping up my joints this weekend.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Yes, the span charts guide us on what to choose and to tell us roughly how your floor rates. There's ways to do field calculations, but usually not done for obvious reasons.

Replacing the screws is probably not necessary, but I've never done it or thought I needed to. Next time try roofing nails.

It would be smart to check the floor for flatness, get a long straight-edge 6, 8 0r 10 ft. long. Record the results. Be sure to prime if you use SLC. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

I have a 4 foot level and a 4 foot square. Both show the floor as pretty flat across...
Since you recommend something bigger, I went and got a piece of drywall that I had cut lengthwise and used the clean edge as a straight.
I suppose I could use a credit card as a feeler gauge, kinda like checking the warpage on a cylinder head or engine block.
Could also have been the screw heads... Seeing as how with screws every six to eight inches, I'm bound to set the straight edge on at least a few of them.

Everything I'm seeing shows a similar process as making a drywall joint; tape the joint and spread on joint compound, then feather the compound out to make the transition between the two pieces of drywall smooth.
I taped the joints with the approved alkali resistant fiberglass tape, looks just like drywall tape except grey. Then I mixed up half a bag of thinset mortar...

I have never felt more in over my head...
I just can't get a smooth joint because the thinset is so gritty. Even when it's watered down, it's much thicker than drywall mud.
It's like trying to perform brain surgery with a sledgehammer.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Four feet distance is not enough. The spec is less than 1/4" in 10 ft. and 1/16" in 12". If you use 4' and guess at 1/8" i.e. it could really be 1/2" in 10 ft. Way bad. Get something straight and longer.

What size and type are the tiles and which specific mortar?

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Four feet distance is not enough. The spec is less than 1/4" in 10 ft. and 1/16" in 12". If you use 4' and guess at 1/8" i.e. it could really be 1/2" in 10 ft. Way bad. Get something straight and longer.
> 
> What size and type are the tiles and which specific mortar?
> 
> Jaz


Mapei Grey Ceramic Tile Mortar - Polymer Enriched
Lowes receipt says it's Model #29325 / Item #37682

Tiles are 12 inch square Ceramic, PEI grade 4.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

> Mapei Grey Ceramic Tile Mortar - Polymer Enriched
> Lowes receipt says it's Model #29325 / Item #37682


check that again, I think that's the grout.

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> check that again, I think that's the grout.
> 
> Jaz


So it is... Wrong line item...

Item 12955 - Model 10650136

I KNOW for a fact that the bag I opened was a 50 lb bag of Thinset..


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

OK, it's an entry-level modified, but it meets specs and should be good enough.
What trowel do you have?

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

1/4 x 1/4 inch square notched.

I used the flat side to feather the joints though... I basically treated it like drywall.

Here's where I'm at:


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

1/4x1/4x1/4 is fine for under Hardie, What do you plan to use to set the tiles? On the seams, you were careful not to make 'speed bumps', right. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

The seams are as flat as I could get them with thinset.

It's much thicker than Drywall joint compound.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

> It's much thicker than Drywall joint compound.


Hopefully it's no more than 1/16" higher, but should be less. Get the 4' level out. Dime or less.

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Hopefully it's no more than 1/16" higher, but should be less. Get the 4' level out. Dime or less.
> 
> Jaz


Nope... Complete failure. There's one area where I could probably slide a quarter under the level.

Great. Time to get some boards, make frames, and turn my kitchen into a lake of self leveler.


I was trying not to have a big step up when coming into the kitchen. Looks like that's off the table.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Well wait. I can't tell from here but. You should use a long straight edge like 8-10 ft. If it's wood, a 1x4" min, perfectly straight board. Depending on how and where the gap is you may be ok. You may have a slight bird-bath. You have to analyze it. 

Another remedy is medium-bed thinset which can get spread thicker. But SLC can fix it if you decide to go that way.

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

See in my photo where the wide feathered joint is, The dip is to the left of that.
That's directly in front of the sink base.
That's the only area that doesn't pass the dime test.

That's also where I repaired some of the subfloor due to a water leak.
Totally forgot I did that.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

I think you can just float a little thinset in that area and all will be fine.

How about the trowel to set the tiles? And the tiles are 12" ceramic? You sure? They're not at least porcelain? Got a #?

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> I think you can just float a little thinset in that area and all will be fine.
> 
> How about the trowel to set the tiles? And the tiles are 12" ceramic? You sure? They're not at least porcelain? Got a #?
> 
> Jaz


I was going to use the same 1/4 x 1/4 inch square notch. Do you think I should switch up to 3/8 x 1/4 inch for a heavier coat of thinset?

The tiles are made by Surface Source.
Item #0016286 / Model #L301123

Caribbean Slate... Which appears to be just a grey stone pattern printed on a beige Ceramic background. It's got a texture to it.

These were rated at high traffic similar to the porcelain tiles that were in stock at the local Lowes. All the porcelain tiles I found were very smooth glazed and would be slippery when wet.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Ceramic tile about 12"-14" in standard thickness need a 1/4x3/8x1/4" sq. notch trowel. You're also supposed to use medium bed mortar, but the one you've got will be ok.

But those tiles.........? Are you sure you wanna invest all the effort and use such a low grade tile in your kitchen? Inexpensive tiles are $2-3, average about $3-5, I've seen those Surface Source tiles at Lowes, man, it's almost criminal to sell stuff like that. Be prepared to go with 1/4" joints or wider, to handle the variations. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Ceramic tile about 12"-14" in standard thickness need a 1/4x3/8x1/4" sq. notch trowel. You're also supposed to use medium bed mortar, but the one you've got will be ok.
> 
> But those tiles.........? Are you sure you wanna invest all the effort and use such a low grade tile in your kitchen? Inexpensive tiles are $2-3, average about $3-5, I've seen those Surface Source tiles at Lowes, man, it's almost criminal to sell stuff like that. Be prepared to go with 1/4" joints or wider, to handle the variations.
> 
> Jaz


I do have 1/4 inch spacers.

I'll upgrade the trowel to a 1/4 x 3/8 and pick up another bag of thinset mortar

I unboxed about 3 of the 15 boxes I have to get the layout of the kitchen. They appeared to be okay, just eyeballing them. I'll take a square to a few of them to double check.

I figured they were cheap because they're on clearance... Also, obviously this is my first tile job. I'm not trying to install trash, but I'm also not looking forward to eating a fortune due to a botched job.

I can sweat pipe, rewire a breaker panel, frame walls... All the major mechanical work, when it comes to the cosmetics, flooring, walls, stuff that needs to look nice, I'm very unsure of myself.

See the wall in the background. First major drywalling job. I think the joints came out nice.
Of course there's no real choice in materials to use there... Drywall, Mud, Tape, Screws. The store only has one or two types of each.
With the tile, you've got all different colors of grout, a couple colors of thinset, and a whole aisle of tiles.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Well........ok then. Put whatever you want in your kitchen. I'm sure you'll like it. 

Just a tip; Do not use spacers with off-caliber tiles, they'll make corrections more difficult. Besides the square, check for rectangularity. These's other things like warpage, bowing and many more. I see the spec says absorbency is 3-6%. 

Maybe you were misled by PEI 4? That tells you nothing about quality. 



> They appeared to be okay, just eyeballing them.


:laughing::no:

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Just a tip; Do not use spacers with off-caliber tiles, they'll make corrections more difficult. Besides the square, check for rectangularity. These's other things like warpage, bowing and many more. I see the spec says absorbency is 3-6%.


Duly noted.

The book that I have, "Home Depot Tile 1-2-3" says the anything under 7% water retention should be good for a floor.



> Maybe you were misled by PEI 4? That tells you nothing about quality.


I thought the PEI rating was for wear resistance.



> :laughing::no:
> 
> Jaz


Is it standard practice to take every tile in a job and put it up on a framing square?

Fifteen boxes, Eleven tiles a box, and this is a fairly small room.

I have a couple extra boxes and it's an in-stock tile for the time being. If I keep these, I'll square them up as I put them down, set the off square ones off to the side so I can return them.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

The absorption of the tile is one of many criteria. In the last 10-15 years porcelain ceramic has gotten so inexpensive that all but the very cheapest is likely to be porcelain, for floors at least. People also use large porcelain on walls. True porcelain has a .5% rate or less. But just being porcelain doesn't tell you it's good quality tile. It just tells you it's hard and should last a long time. Witness porcelain for $1.50 2.00 a ft.

PEI is a simple test that records how many cycles it takes for the tiles to show scratches. Take a low quality tile, give it a textured finish and wala.........PEI 4. Means very little, all except bright glaze wall tiles will last a long time. You need min. PEI 3 for residential. 



> Is it standard practice to take every tile in a job and put it up on a framing square?


No never. Just on occasion we check a few pieces to show how much off they are. The biggest problem is tiles are rectangular. Hopefully the alarm goes off before tiles are bought. 

As a tile setter I cringe if the customer wants to buy cheap tiles. It means they don't wanna spend the right amount for materials and usually want the labor for peanuts too. 

To install tile correctly over a wooden subfloor such as yours, the labor, concrete backer, setting materials etc should be at least $7-8 a sq. ft. (Maybe more in your case since it's kinda a small area). So why would anyone spend that much but want tile that is worth $1.50? Makes no sense.

Plus with such poor quality we'd often have to "fight" with the tiles trying to get it set uniformly. So, we have to sell for less and it takes more time. Usually I run from jobs like that. It's fine when people do it themselves, they will tolerate poor tiles and installations that aren't quite as nice as they could be. That's one reason for forums such as this. We try to help DIY's so they can at least get started on the right foot. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

Understandable.

I usually don't factor in labor costs since I do a lot of labor myself.

Also, the area where I live (Woodbridge, Virginia... Washington D.C. metropolitan area) labor prices can be vary WIDELY. We're densely populated, and the housing market hasn't quite followed the national trend. Some areas held on pretty nicely, others only a few miles away had dozens of foreclosures.

There's lots of fly by night companies that charge peanuts usually using illegal labor and no insurance.
There's retired guys that were in the trade long ago when stuff was built well and are just doing a few jobs here and there.
There's licensed contractors that get in with one of these big box stores, also sometimes using questionable labor.

With prices varying widely, there's also workmanship that varies widely and neither price nor quality seem to relate. You can find an inexpensive contractor that does crap work or one that does great work. Likewise you can find an expensive contractor that does good work or one that does crap work...

Because of this, I prefer to do work myself...


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Oh yes, I know what you mean. 

You're lucky to be in that area, the real bad economy does not effect you as much as the rest of the nation, generally.

My son normally now lives in McLean and I was there last summer doing some work for them since the labor there is so high. It's not real high, (just where it should be IMO). just higher than most other parts of the country. I couldn't believe the prices they're able to get there. But then again you guys are paid more $$ there too, which is good.

Jaz


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## brucem609 (Feb 6, 2013)

Jazman, I have seen the roofing nails many times, however after redoing many floors, I have seen the nails in bad shape,in some places. Use the screws, they are made for the job, and it doesn't void the warranty of the hardibacker.

To make sure the screws get in, I use 2 methods. 1. Use an impact driver when putting in the screws. 2. Use a counter sink bit where you are going to put the screws. Nothing is more annoying than when you are in the middle of laying a couple hundred square feet of tile and you run into screw after screw too high and you have to re do the screws to get them low enough!

Do yourself a favor, make sure the screws are in deep before you start with the thinset


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

This problem only happens with Hardie. Solution; Use a different CBU instead, or use Ditra on floors, it's a much better method anyway, although $$$. 



> however after redoing many floors


Wow, that means the floors didn't last very long, why did they fail?



> Nothing is more annoying than when you are in the middle of laying a couple hundred square feet of tile and you run into screw after screw too high


I know, I know. I rarely had that problem. I'd pull my putty knife over the screws while taping the seams and sharp eye. Another reason to use roofing nails. If you miss one you can even hammer through the thinset. :thumbsup:

Using roofing nails is a perfectly good method and all manufacturers approve. But you're supposed to use hot-dipped galvanized not the cheapo electro-plate (?) ones. There's ways and tools to make the job easier, but unless you only use Hardie, it may not the worth the cost. Plus we're dealing with mostly DIY'ers here. 

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

Welp, I've tiled about half the room and have run into several problems.

1.) I'm hopefully never going to be putting a table in that kitchen. If I do, I'll need paper to make sure the table doesn't wobble... Probably the Sunday edition.
How do I keep my tiles completely level over the entire room? I know it's because my angle on the trowel is not consistent. Is there a notched trowel for dummies that has a kickstand or something on it so that it stays at the same angle the entire time? I almost have to pry the tiles up with a screwdeiver to pick up once I've plopped them down into the thinset. (I guess it's a good thing that there are no air bubbles under there.)

2.) I've burned up three drills so far mixing Thinset, including my High Torque DR500 750 RPM Black and Decker... I've used inch and a half auger bits with this thing; It's an original, Made in USA Black and Decker drill too, not one of the cheapo ones. I've also burned up Two Ridgid R71211, which is sold as a 1/2 inch VSR Mixer. Home Depot has said I am not to return the third one because it appears that I'm abusing them if I'm returning two in one day. (Luckily Ridgid has a lifetime service plan.) I'm not even mixing full 50 lb bags of thinset because they dry up too quickly. I make it half a bag at a time in a 5 gallon bucket.
Can I mix the thinset with a little extra water so long as I allow extra cure time?

3.) I'm scraping the excess thinset out of my grout lines with a point trowel, however there are some places where I forgot to do that. Can I go back and clean up the grout lines with a chisel so that the thinset doesn't show through my grout?

4.) I have a feeling that I should have laid out all the tiles and cut them before anything... Either that or waited to do the edge tiles until later.


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## JetSwet (Jan 21, 2012)

Post some pics up or your progress. Going forward Jaz gave you correct trowel size but if you found your self fighting to move thinset around its too dry. If you have thinset in between grout lines you either preset down to hard or to much was used.....So In other words if you run a square block or a level over the tiles that you laid so far you will be hitting tiles?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Pele,

Sorry you're having trouble.

1. You're suposed to make sure the floor is flat before you start, kinda hard to fix now.

2. I've burned up 3-4 drill motors in over 25 years. If you have a heavy duty 1/2" chuck with variable speed, you must be doing the mixing all wrong. Let us know how you're doing it step by step. It'll help others too.

3. I have never used a pointing trowel to remove excess thinset, got a soft sponge? In an extreme case I use a small piece of the cardboard box the tile comes in, then a sponge. Chisel to remove thinset from between? ah ah...ur kidding right? How about a utility knife the next day held at an angle? 

4. Some people do that and I still can figure out why. A small area like a table top maybe, but why lay them twice? And are you good enough to set them all on the exact spot again? It'll take you 2-3x longer to set the same area.

We're waiting to hear how you mixed your thinset. And absolutely post pics showing the entire area and with a straight edge on the floor showing why you need a newspaper.

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

The floor was flat. I'm having inconsistent thicknesses of the thinset under the tiles. Even with two tiles right next to eachother on the same sheet of HardiBacker are off level.



I put 2.5 to 2.57 quarts of water in a 5 gallon bucket. Then I add half the bag of thinset and stick the mixing paddle in. (Full bag calls for 5.0 to 5.5 qts of water.)

The recipe calls for 5 minutes of straight mixing followed by 10 minutes of sitting, followed by 2 more minutes of mixing.

Usually the drill is very hot or smoking by the time the first 5 minutes are up and I have to pull it outta the bucket to even get it to turn on the second mixing.



I'm thinking that I need to lay out all the tiles so that I know how big my edge tiles need to be. If I stop laying tiles and go to start cutting them, my thinset start drying while I'm cutting.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

> The floor was flat. I'm having inconsistent thicknesses of the thinset under the tiles. Even with two tiles right next to eachother on the same sheet of HardiBacker are off level.


I don't see how that's possible. What are you spreading with? 

The drills must be low amp, kinda cheap ones for this kind of work, maybe? 

Water first is the key, but do not add the required 1/2 a bag all at once. That's probably what's causing problems. Be sure to mix at low speed too. Also, what thinset are you using? 5 min. for initial mix is too long, IMO.



> I'm thinking that I need to lay out all the tiles so that I know how big my edge tiles need to be. If I stop laying tiles and go to start cutting them, my thinset start drying while I'm cutting.


No. Use your tape measure and mark the floor. You should have a good 20 minutes or so open time, plus are you back buttering? Tell me which thinset, which trowel and type of tile, be specific. Are you doing anything to the Hardie just before you spread thinset? No? Why not?

Jaz


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> I don't see how that's possible. What are you spreading with?
> 
> The drills must be low amp, kinda cheap ones for this kind of work, maybe?


Black and Decker was a 5 amp... I figured that might be a little low.

The newer one was a 9 amp one and is built for mixing.



> Water first is the key, but do not add the required 1/2 a bag all at once. That's probably what's causing problems. Be sure to mix at low speed too. Also, what thinset are you using? 5 min. for initial mix is too long, IMO.


Bag says:
Mapei Grey Ceramic Tile Mortar - Polymer Enriched
According to the Lowes Receipt, it's Item 12955 - Model 10650136

Those are the instructions on the back of the bag... Mix 5, Sit 10, Mix 2.



> No. Use your tape measure and mark the floor. You should have a good 20 minutes or so open time, plus are you back buttering? Tell me which thinset, which trowel and type of tile, be specific. Are you doing anything to the Hardie just before you spread thinset? No? Why not?
> 
> Jaz


Running a 1/4 x 3/8 square notch trowel.

I wetted down the HardiBacker, just by sprinkling water on it. It's not in any instructions, but I've seen people on here recommend it because the HardiBacker is very dry and pulls moisture out of the thinset.


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JetSwet said:


> If you have thinset in between grout lines you either preset down to hard or to much was used..


Wait... You can press down too hard?

Aren't you supposed to hit them with a rubber mallet?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Well.............? It all sounds right. The only thing you didn't elaborate on is if you added the entire 1/2 bag into the bucket with all the water in it. 

5 minutes of mixing then 2 more sounds way too long for me. I don't normally time it, but I'd say 2 minutes and then 30 seconds or so. I mix the initial time till there's no lumps and looks nice. Mixing too long will "burn" the mix, which means it'll set up in the bucket faster. Plus if you're slow you need to stir it now and then. 

I mist the Hardie cuz it sucks. Sponging is probably the best method, but I mist. You have to keep an eye on the thinset and touch it with your finger to check it.

The 1/4 x 3/8 x 1/4" trowel sounds right for most 12-14" tiles, but you didn't answer that one. (specific type of tile) As for thinset in the grout joint. Maybe you're sliding the tiles? Are the groove going the same way?

Jaz


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## JetSwet (Jan 21, 2012)

Pele2048 said:


> Wait... You can press down too hard?
> 
> Aren't you supposed to hit them with a rubber mallet?


Well if your not jokingly stating what you just said?...lol... then yes you can defeat the hole purpose of trowling thinset if you press down hard enough. Your only suppose to press a tiny bit with your fingers wile slightly moving the tile for better bond of thinset to get the air out between top of thinset lines and tile.

You also should back butter larger format tile like 13" +" this means taking thinset and just like buttering toast on back of tile but I only do that for wall tiles and if you do you have to do them all you cant miss any, some tilers will do it always some do it on the floor.


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Well.............? It all sounds right. The only thing you didn't elaborate on is if you added the entire 1/2 bag into the bucket with all the water in it.
> 
> 5 minutes of mixing then 2 more sounds way too long for me. I don't normally time it, but I'd say 2 minutes and then 30 seconds or so. I mix the initial time till there's no lumps and looks nice. Mixing too long will "burn" the mix, which means it'll set up in the bucket faster. Plus if you're slow you need to stir it now and then.
> 
> ...


The type of tiles is earlier in this thread.



Pele2048 said:


> The tiles are made by Surface Source.
> Item #0016286 / Model #L301123


You commented that it's criminal to sell 97 cent tiles. Well, now you know why I got such cheap crap... So that I don't feel so bad about going in there and smashing them all with a hammer... It's what I feel like doing right about now.


As for the grooves, they're going in all sorts of directions, depending on where I was sitting when I was putting the tile down.
If I was in the middle of a row, they're probably going sideways.
If I was at the end of a row and next to the wall, they're probably going towards me.

I'd lay down one or two square feet of thinset and then put down one or two tiles. Then I'd get up, move my bucket and lay down more thinset, lay down tiles. Occasionally, I'd hit the end of a row and go cut a tile.

Some areas don't even have grooves because I couldn't fit my trowel under the baseboard heater or under the toe kicks of my cabinets. I just did what I could with the pointing trowel there.



JetSwet said:


> Well if your not jokingly stating what you just said?...lol... then yes you can defeat the hole purpose of trowling thinset if you press down hard enough. Your only suppose to press a tiny bit with your fingers wile slightly moving the tile for better bond of thinset to get the air out between top of thinset lines and tile.
> 
> You also should back butter larger format tile like 13" +" this means taking thinset and just like buttering toast on back of tile but I only do that for wall tiles and if you do you have to do them all you cant miss any, some tilers will do it always some do it on the floor.


I've been back buttering them using the flat side of my trowel.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Oh yes, I remember. .97 tile. You probably thought it was "average" quality since it wasn't .58 a ft. Places like that have lowered the quality of our homes. People end up buying junk, and they think they're getting a deal. Average tile is $3-5 a ft. But at least more people are using ceramic. 

Did you check for warpage of the tiles or is it the floor? Did you lay a straight edge on the floor yet? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyt2US_SSBM

Jaz


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## JetSwet (Jan 21, 2012)

Got to support the tile company's, home depot and alike doesnt care that you want to tile your floor they just want you to think your saving money.

Post some pic!!


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JetSwet said:


> Got to support the tile company's, home depot and alike doesnt care that you want to tile your floor they just want you to think your saving money.
> 
> Post some pic!!


Tile company wouldn't touch this.

I went to Lowes to get a quote on tile installation. They sent a sub contractor out to measure. The guy who measured said I needed to put more screws into the HardiBacker in order for them to guarantee the work.

I put more screws in and called Lowes back. They quoted me double what I had estimated... Charged $200 for moving the stove and refrigerator, adding another $50 for disconnecting the ice maker (Which was never hooked up in the first place.) Then they said that they wouldn't guarantee anything because I had put down the HardiBacker myself.

If I'm paying for installation, I had better get a guarantee... Who's to say that they won't just break all the tiles and then blame me.

Both Lowes and the Contractor actually expected me to remove the HardiBacker, which is installed UNDER my cabinets... And it has Thinset under it holding it to the sub floor.

I'm embarrassed to put up pictures of this crappy job.


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## Pele2048 (Jan 30, 2013)

JazMan said:


> Did you check for warpage of the tiles or is it the floor? Did you lay a straight edge on the floor yet?


The floor is straight. There's only one joint where the floor is off, and I haven't tiled over it yet.

The tiles are all flat and square.

It's the thinset under the tiles.


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## JetSwet (Jan 21, 2012)

Pele, dont get so discourage it looks good imo. I have seen some horror in my day like hop scotch for the blind....lol

To me looks like your backer board is wavey, put your leve on the cbu and post pics of any gaps under the level. If so you will have to fill with thinset.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Well, just do the best you can and it'll look better once it's grouted and all appliances and furniture are back. 

That gap under the level is kinda extreme, but I can't see how thinset caused it.:no: There must be a slight hill within the plane of the tiles to the right. 

As far as BLowes and Home Despot goes.....:laughing: They generally use the same contractor to install all floor coverings. Carpet, laminate, hardwood, vinyl tile, vinyl sheet goods and ceramic tile, same contractor, that's ridiculous! :yes:

$200 to move two appliances is a bit high unless the house is so small that there's no place to put them out of the room while setting tiles. 



Pele said:


> Then they said that they wouldn't guarantee anything because I had put down the HardiBacker myself


.


And yes, you did the Hardie and no one in their right mind will guarantee the job now. They guarantee that the tiles are set straight etc., but no guarantee if they crack or if the floor is not flat etc.



Pele said:


> If I'm paying for installation, I had better get a guarantee..


You didn't pay for the installation of the base, the backer board.



Pele said:


> Who's to say that they won't just break all the tiles and then blame me.


Really? And they would do what, they'd smash your floor while you're back is turned? Sorry you're having a bad day. 

But look at all the money you saved. You did the job for about $ 2.50 - $3.00 a ft. instead of $5-6 for materials or $10-12 installed. 

So, I know this house has been a nightmare, but it'll be fine soon.

Jaz


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