# Compatible Circuit breakers?



## Techy (Mar 16, 2011)

The two murray breakers are correct if your panel is listed for tandem breakers(need more info,preferably a picture of the labels on the door/deadfront) but the GE breaker while not inherently unsafe is technically wrong, and could eventually cause a failure of the bus stab it's connected to.


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

Here is a photo, thanks for the advice!


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## Techy (Mar 16, 2011)

Tandem breakers are allowed where the breaker space has a ----------------- in that diagram appears to be the 10th row, and 12-15th row


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

Thanks, Techy, good catch. The tandems are not installed in the right locations AND the GE breaker needs to go .

The MH breakers still bother me, I can't find any literature that says they are ok for this panel - but given the other link that I posted I guess it should be OK. I might call Siemens on Monday to see if they can give me any more info. Do you know if there are any compatibility matrices out there?

Looks like I'll be calling back the electricians. Glad I didn't pay them yet!

Chris


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

cjdavia said:


> Thanks, Techy, good catch. The tandems are not installed in the right locations AND the GE breaker needs to go .
> 
> The MH breakers still bother me, I can't find any literature that says they are ok for this panel - but given the other link that I posted I guess it should be OK. I might call Siemens on Monday to see if they can give me any more info. Do you know if there are any compatibility matrices out there?
> 
> ...


 The Ge has two go, the mh are ok, and tandems have to be moved.
If this being inspected than the inspector would have(should) picked it up. Also if it is being inspected never give any contactor full payment untill final inspection approval


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Many contracts are written so that final inspection is not needed for payment to be made. This is because a customer could put off having the work inspected for a long time before having to pay.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

cjdavia said:


> The MH breakers still bother me, I can't find any literature that says they are ok for this panel - but given the other link that I posted I guess it should be OK. I might call Siemens on Monday to see if they can give me any more info. Do you know if there are any compatibility matrices out there?


You are WAY over thinking this. 

The GE's are not a big deal, but are technically no correct for that panel.
Just have them install BR breakers and be done with it. BR are the most common breaker around as they are pretty much the final incarnation of all this listed.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

k_buz said:


> Many contracts are written so that final inspection is not needed for payment to be made. This is because a customer could put off having the work inspected for a long time before having to pay.


How could the customer put off inspection when it's the electrician that should be pulling the permits.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

In my area, Master Electricians are the only people that can pull electrical permits. When the EC calls to confirm (with the customer) that somebody will be available to let the inspector in, they won't "know their schedule", will be out of town, have company in from out of town, not answer the phone. Then if you do get a time nailed down, they will just not let the inspector in or leave. There are multiple ways.

In other parts of the country homeowners can pull permits. In this case I do not see any way an electrical contractor would wait till the permit has been inspected and closed to receive payment.


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

Interesting, getting a permit was never even brought up. Thanks for the advice.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

cjdavia said:


> Interesting, getting a permit was never even brought up. Thanks for the advice.


He did a service change without a permit/inspections???
Or was it just a panel change?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

He had a generator installed Speedy. But that wouldn't disqualify the need for a permit.

Slightly off topic: I can't imagine the number of illegally installed generators that are being put in on the east coast right now. If I were a lineman in that area, I would have to think about moving into another line of work. Especially when New Jersey has waived permit fees.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

k_buz said:


> He had a generator installed Speedy.


Oh yeah. Duh.

How quickly I forget once the original post drifts up to the top.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

k_buz said:


> He had a generator installed Speedy. But that wouldn't disqualify the need for a permit.
> 
> Slightly off topic: I can't imagine the number of illegally installed generators that are being put in on the east coast right now. If I were a lineman in that area, I would have to think about moving into another line of work. Especially when New Jersey has waived permit fees.


The permit fees have only been waived for replacing or repairing electrical services.
All other work require permits. I have had to get many. Also in NJ final payment is not required until final inspection.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

NJMarine said:


> Also in NJ final payment is not required until final inspection.


That completely discourages contractors from pulling permits. And what stops a homeowner from never calling in for an inspection? Is the contractor also notified?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

NJMarine said:


> The permit fees have only been waived for replacing or repairing electrical services.
> All other work require permits..


I do not believe that to be true from the stuff I've seen.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/hurricane_sandy_fee_ltr.pdf


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

He just added a generator inlet and the interllock kit (so I can't have the main and the generator circuits on at the same time)


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

Maybe that is what he did.. The previous owner of the house had been backfeeding the generator into the subpanel... the electrician I hired moved the backfeeding circuit to the main panel for the interlock kit...


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

OK. I called Siemens... The Siemens guy agreed that the MH-T breaker should be fine although it has not been UL approved with my specific panel because the panel is just too old. It would void the warranty if the panel weren't 40+ years old but it should be safe. .

I did replace the mismatched GE breaker with an MP.

My electrician tells me that the newer tandem breakers don't utilize restrictive clips so they can go anywhere in the panel. The Siemens guy said that as long as it fits and I'm not overloading the board it should be fine. My panel is jammed with circuits for electric heat which we don't use anymore so I am sure we're not overloading it. The Siemens guy also tells me that this is not 2 separate 1/2 inch breakers (which were around in the 70s), it is technically a one inch tandem breaker so it is probably just fine.


Here is the thing. I asked my electrician to check out everything in the panel while he was there for the genny because the basement was smelling really funky -- like a dead fish. It seemed to be coming from the panel but I could not be sure. Of course he said everything looked fine, just like the previous electrician told me a month ago. 

Before I replaced that GE breaker I heard the breaker for my water heater buzzing a bit. 10 minutes after turning off the main, the water heater breaker was still hot. I disconnected the wires and this picture shows what I found. The insulation on the wire seems nicely toasted. I trimmed the copper back a bit and installed a new breaker.. but I am wondering if I *can trust that the wire is safe?* The hot water heater is always running and I don't want to burn the house down!

Last night I also found another damned charred wire in the basement. This one was running along a floor joist. It looks like someone damaged it a long time ago with a staple. They removed the wire from the staple (probably by yanking on the wire) and just left both the staple and the wire there, the wire had a small cut and was badly bent. I'm not really sure what I am supposed to do. I peeled away the blackened insulation and charred ground-paper, then electrical-taped the tiny part of the hot wire that was exposed and arcing to the ground wire which now looks sorta oxidized.. *Should I be running a new wire there?*

Now I am going to vent a little.. sorry in advance. You can stop reading if you like. This is probably the 20th electrical issue I've found since I moved to this house and I'm about to lose it.

I've found inaccessible junction boxes hiding in the walls. If there is a metal box somewhere, I guarantee it is not grounded. I've grounded about 30 of them myself and it is not a fun nor rewarding job. I've found wires that are just nutted together inside of a wall cavity, not in any junction box at all. That is fun. Light fixtures that are screwed in and sit flush against the ceiling without a connection box or any barrier between the drywall and lightbulb, 100 watt bulbs when the maximum is 60... Funky electrical timers tucked away high up in the attic to control a flood light near the top of the roof because the previous owner was too lazy or stupid to install a switch in a place that made sense... Overloaded circuits everywhere. Improperly wired two and three pole switches. No GFCIs on the exterior outlets. Basement lights that just sizzle when you turn them on because the idiot has like 2 inches of exposed wire in there. Here is my favorite... Two pole switches that have been "modified" to become a one way switch for an outlet. Yes folks, when you walk into my kitchen in the dark and try to turn on the lights instead of touching a light switch you're sticking your finger in an outlet! My inlaws love that feature.... the list just goes on and on over here.

I have a young family here. 3 kids, 2 in diapers. I am really worried about the safety of this house. 

It is impossible to find someone -- an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter, anyone at all that really cares and wants to do the job right -- use the right parts, look for other issues, etc.. even when I explicitly ask them to do it and say that I am willing to pay for their time. 

I did take a residential electric course when I first moved here and luckily have experience with digital electronics so I am somewhat comfortable with these types of repairs, but not this magnitude, everyday something comes up. I'm at the end of my wits and have a day job to focus on. I can't spend all my time on this house. Sigh. Sorry to vent. I think it is time for a beer or something stronger I guess. 

If you have any advice, I'm all ears!

Thanks in advance
Chris


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## TTW (Nov 23, 2012)

Just curious, where are you located? Good idea to put it in your profile as codes vary greatly by location.


My house is over 100 years old and I am pretty sure is has some bit of every age of wiring in it. I feel your pain.














but I am pretty sure the plumbing was all redone and is up to perfect code! :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Here my duex cents here.,

If your electrique water heater conductors is #10 AWG which they are larger than #12 et #14's if so that is legit size to use it but you may want to check little closer on the water heater itself to see if they are functing properly.

You should hear only one heating element is on at all ., If both are on then you have issue right there due if you have 4500 watts elements each and both are on the same time that is drawing 9000 watts that is way over the limit of the rating of #10 conductor without a question.

Unless you have seperated circuit for time of use like specal time period which the electrique rates are lower then the lower element is enabled ( turned on ) so that is one possiblty.

Now with second part is the MWBC with two pole one inch breaker which it is above the " water heater " space what that circuit run to ?? and I have a feeling that is not a " legit " MWBC ( Multi Wire Branch Circuit ) and you can have overloaded netural right there due it will be addtive like example you have 15 amp on one breaker and 20 amp on second breaker that can come up to 35 amp and that is way too much for #12 or #14 to take it.

Merci,
Marc


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

k_buz said:


> I do not believe that to be true from the stuff I've seen.
> 
> http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/hurricane_sandy_fee_ltr.pdf


I will reply to both your last posts. The contractor is responsible to call for inspections not the homeowner. 

In the letter from NJ DCA is states thats municipalities MAY waive fees.
I am sure some have, but isome have not except for service repair or replacement.


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## cjdavia (May 28, 2010)

TTW said:


> Just curious, where are you located? Good idea to put it in your profile as codes vary greatly by location.
> 
> 
> My house is over 100 years old and I am pretty sure is has some bit of every age of wiring in it. I feel your pain.


TTW, Thanks so much for you post. I feel much better after seeing what you are dealing with  Our situation is not that different although I have NEVER seen anything quite like you've got in those photos! 

I live in CT and bought a house built in 1976, which is a 'new home' for folks like you and my folks in RI -- their house was built in the 1700s. I'm going to update my profile soon.

Thanks and good luck!
Chris


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

NJMarine said:


> I will reply to both your last posts. *The contractor is responsible to call for inspections* not the homeowner.
> 
> In the letter from NJ DCA is states thats municipalities MAY waive fees.
> I am sure some have, but isome have not except for service repair or replacement.


The contractor is not responsible for calling for the inspection. He is responsible for *obtaining* the final inspection. Page 15 from this link reads;

Every licensee who performs or supervises work described in (a) above shall secure permits
when required and, within a reasonable time after completion of the work, *secure an*
*inspection of the completed work* when required to ensure conformity with the State Uniform
Construction Code Act, N.J.S.A. 52:27D-119 et seq., and its implementing rules set forth in​the Uniform Construction Code, N.J.A.C. 5:23.

Also, permit fees can be *waived *for repair work resulting from Sandy. It can be services and/or repairs to wiring. It is up to each individual municapality to decide.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

In order to obtain a final inspection some has to make a call to schedule the inspection. Some town only want the contractor to call, because to many times the homeowner called and the work done was not ready for inspection.
I am only refering to the area that I do work and what I need to do.
To clarify about permits fees being waived, some towns have done that but permits still need to be issued. I live in the shore area that was hit. I have not had to pay for permits that were for service repair or replacement, which includes panels. I have had to pay if wiring had to be replaced.


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