# Permit to finish already framed room and insulation code requirements higher than when room was framed



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anything can be added too, can you post a few picture so everyone will be on the same page?


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

You can’t get grandfathered because it’s new construction. 
Can you use foam?


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

As Half-Fast suggested, foam is a viable alternative.
3 1/2" of closed cell is a bit over R-20.
You *could *fur out the existing 2 x 4 stud walls to use thicker insulation.
You can get a quote for the closed cell then figure out what it would cost you to fur out the existing and use fiberglass to make the R 20.
You just have to calculate which you can do and what each way would cost you.
Personally I would use foam since it is airtight and insect and mold resistant.

The ceiling isn't an issue since you can always add above the joists.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Although they may seem unrealistic in their requirements, a bonus room like what you have suffers the most with lack of insulation versus framing. Foaming is the absolute best solution considering 2x4's. A client foamed a back room of a garage including the rafters and I could not believe the difference in temperatures. Without any air movement outside air was 100 while inside was 80. I was surprised. I know it seems a little expensive now, but in the long run you may be thanking them for this requirement, especially if you have really hot summers or cold winters.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Anything can be added too, can you post a few picture so everyone will be on the same page?


Thanks for the suggestion. I added 3 photos with descriptions.


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

hat63 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I added 3 photos


Ummm … no you didn’t ….


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## gkreamer (May 8, 2020)

Sometimes on my phone I think I hit the "Post reply" button but it doesn't always register for some reason and I have to go back and hit it properly...


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Half-fast eddie said:


> Ummm … no you didn’t ….


Can you see them now?


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

He added them to post #1

Wow that's a nice auditorium.......er bonus room. Rockwool adds an R15, but with all said and if they will be inspecting it, you need to carefully remove it and foam it. Or else you will be forced to add 2x2's to the face of every stud and make up insulation to R20 in each bay. Not sure how that will be accomplished.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Insulate as you are with rock wool and cover everything with foam board behind the drywall.
1 1/2" of foam board would get you close but would also cover the bridge effect of the lumber.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

So, the original permit was closed out? If not, just reference the original plans that had been approved by the county and the insulation detail should be on those plans. Unless, of course, the country permitted an unheated, unfinished space as shown.


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## SoNic (Feb 14, 2021)

Domo said:


> Unless, of course, the country permitted an unheated, unfinished space as shown.


OP said it was a garage. So it's a change in building occupancy, old permits don't apply.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

SoNic said:


> OP said it was a garage. So it's a change in building occupancy, old permits don't apply.


If I understand the OP correctly, the room in question is a bonus room _above_ the garage. Well, above the in-law suite now (assuming the garage conversion to in-law suite was permitted).

But as I understand it, permits typically do expire, so even though the space may have been permitted in 1996 (or whenever it was built), the permit probably no longer applies.


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## ObserverX2930 (Jan 19, 2021)

The insulation from your walls can be used in the attic, to boost up the attic rating, right?


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Last I checked our local permits are good for 3 yrs providing there is at least 1 inspection every 6 months but it seems like every time I've pulled a permit the rules change.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

SoNic said:


> OP said it was a garage. So it's a change in building occupancy, old permits don't apply.


I missed that part - thanks!


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

I would highly recommend you drywall the ceiling joists for a flat ceiling at 10' or whatever it's at, do not leave them exposed and drywall the rafters all the way up to the ridge. Those are not finish grade 2x's, they are too closely spaced for the proportion of room, and creates a dark no man's land above it. If you want the timber look put faux beams every 6' or 8' below the flat ceiling.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Domo said:


> So, the original permit was closed out? If not, just reference the original plans that had been approved by the county and the insulation detail should be on those plans. Unless, of course, the country permitted an unheated, unfinished space as shown.


Yes. So the house was built in 1996 with this unfinished bonus room framed as in the photos over the in-law suite and a certificate of occupancy issued. There was never a garage. We used the space as storage mostly with a pool table used when the room was warm enough. (We are just south of Washington DC) So the original building permit was not only closed out in 1996 but a CO was issued and approved by the county with the room in it's unfinished state.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

SoNic said:


> OP said it was a garage. So it's a change in building occupancy, old permits don't apply.


Actually it was never a garage. The original house plans called for a garage but it was built out as an in-law suite instead with the unfinished room above it. No change in building occupancy.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

It is a strange build for the 90s, with out rafter ties, Are the walls full height with the floor hung off the walls?


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> It is a strange build for the 90s, with out rafter ties, Are the walls full height with the floor hung off the walls?


I'm not sure what a rafter tie is. (I'm not a construction person (my background is computer science), so I do not know much of the terminology other than what i've learned watching videos and reading lots of online boards like this one.)

There is a steel beam across the middle of room under the floor with a bunch of 2x10's running perpendicular to the beam on both sides of the beam running towards the front and back of the house. So I believe the room is sitting on top of the first floor of the first floor of the house and not hanging, to my knowledge.

Here are some more photos of the current state of the room.

This is from the back of the room looking towards the front of the house where the dormer window is. As you can see, we have installed drywall over the beams to keep the rustic look and there's now a small attic space above that which is in some other photos.









This is the small attic space above the beams. Will need R49 up here but would like to have some of the space for storage if possible. R30 Rockwool fits fine in between the rafters - but not sure how to get to R49 without losing the whole space.









This is looking towards the back of the room. Black baffles already installed and drywall ceiling already in place. Need to insulate to R49 on the diagonals where the baffles are. Not sure how. (R30 batts fit fine) That's why I was wondering about the grandfathering in ofinsulation code.










Attic space from other direction









This is a photo of under the floor of the bonus room fyi.









This is the ceiling from the dormer window towards the back of the house. The wall on the left is the framed wall for teh new bathroom.









A view looking up of the beams before the drywall was installed over them.









A view of the ceiling from back of the house looking towards the front










We are trying to do as much as we can ourselves to save money but are hiring an electrician and plumber for all that work.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Half-fast eddie said:


> You can’t get grandfathered because it’s new construction.
> Can you use foam?


My thoughts with using Rockwool was based on its ability to resist fire and moisture. Spray foam seemed super expensive and I wanted to do the work myself, so purchasing batts seemed reasonable last fall. Now I'm not so sure.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Insulate as you are with rock wool and cover everything with foam board behind the drywall.
> 1 1/2" of foam board would get you close but would also cover the bridge effect of the lumber.


OK this sounds doable for the walls. I guess I would just build out window sills since the wall would be 2" inside the window. Does the drywall (inside wall) and outside sheathing under the siding count towards the R-value or just the actual insulation itself?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

hat63 said:


> My thoughts with using Rockwool was based on its ability to resist fire and moisture. Spray foam seemed super expensive and I wanted to do the work myself, so purchasing batts seemed reasonable last fall. Now I'm not so sure.


You are out of order, and there is an order to this stuff. 
Plumbing first, the Hvac then the electrical, they all do things to framing that may need to be fixed. 
Only after all that is done you insulate. 
Some of the original framing is questionable by today's standards, I would want an inspector in to look at it before moving to far forward. 
Ceiling joists and rafter ties are the same thing. Your ceiling seems to be to high, they should be in the lower third of the total height.
I do not understand the drywall and plywood above the ceiling joists?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

hat63 said:


> OK this sounds doable for the walls. I guess I would just build out window sills since the wall would be 2" inside the window. Does the drywall (inside wall) and outside sheathing under the siding count towards the R-value or just the actual insulation itself?


Only insulation counts.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> I would highly recommend you drywall the ceiling joists for a flat ceiling at 10' or whatever it's at, do not leave them exposed and drywall the rafters all the way up to the ridge. Those are not finish grade 2x's, they are too closely spaced for the proportion of room, and creates a dark no man's land above it. If you want the timber look put faux beams every 6' or 8' below the flat ceiling.


Thanks for the suggestion. I added some photos so you can see we've already moved beyond that point and installed drywall over the cross beams/rafter or whatever the correct term is. We sanded and finished the beams with a natural stain to keep it's rustic look. There is tons of light in the room as the large dormer window faces south and the long side wall with double window faces east).


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> You are out of order, and there is an order to this stuff.
> Plumbing first, the Hvac then the electrical, they all do things to framing that may need to be fixed.
> Only after all that is done you insulate.
> Some of the original framing is questionable by today's standards, I would want an inspector in to look at it before moving to far forward.
> ...


Yes I think we are finally learning that. 

We installed the insulation to be able to work in the room (in other words, clean it out, go through the massive 25 years of 'stuff' that was in there) over the winter. It was easy to install and I can easily take it out wherever needed. Plumbing area is all in the bathroom area and above the in-law bathroom, so I don't expect that to need much work except attaching to existing plumbing in the laundry room below. But we have a plumber who will do that work to tie into the main house. Master electrician will be running a new panel from the basement on the outside of the house into the back corner of the room, so he will mostly be in the main house attic. Then I can remove any of the lower insulation to run outlets and a few fan boxes from the attic space. HVAC guys already added a 2nd zone (4 vents and 1 return and a thermostat) from the attic system that was sized for the entire upstairs. (Those guys told me I didn't need a permit to add a zone since none of the equipment is changing.) I'm not doing any more insulating until all those other things are done now that I have an official permit, so I wanna do it right from here on out. Drywall and plywood above the ceiling joists were for the ceiling and plywood so that space could be used for storage (to walk on it). Perhaps that won't be possible now.

Can you give me an example of what an inspector would want me to change before moving forward? I want to be prepared. Should I ask for an inspection now or for an inspector to come out and consult with me?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

hat63 said:


> Yes I think we are finally learning that.
> 
> We installed the insulation to be able to work in the room (in other words, clean it out, go through the massive 25 years of 'stuff' that was in there) over the winter. It was easy to install and I can easily take it out wherever needed. Plumbing area is all in the bathroom area and above the in-law bathroom, so I don't expect that to need much work except attaching to existing plumbing in the laundry room below. But we have a plumber who will do that work to tie into the main house. Master electrician will be running a new panel from the basement on the outside of the house into the back corner of the room, so he will mostly be in the main house attic. Then I can remove any of the lower insulation to run outlets and a few fan boxes from the attic space. HVAC guys already added a 2nd zone (4 vents and 1 return and a thermostat) from the attic system that was sized for the entire upstairs. (Those guys told me I didn't need a permit to add a zone since none of the equipment is changing.) I'm not doing any more insulating until all those other things are done now that I have an official permit, so I wanna do it right from here on out. Drywall and plywood above the ceiling joists were for the ceiling and plywood so that space could be used for storage (to walk on it). Perhaps that won't be possible now.
> 
> Can you give me an example of what an inspector would want me to change before moving forward? I want to be prepared. Should I ask for an inspection now or for an inspector to come out and consult with me?


My biggest concern on what they would say about the ceiling. And you are missing the collar ties that should be in the upper third. 
The building has stood the test of time but that doesn't always mean anything?


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> My biggest concern on what they would say about the ceiling. And you are missing the collar ties that should be in the upper third.
> The building has stood the test of time but that doesn't always mean anything?
> View attachment 679484


I see. It seems like it wouldn't be hard to add collar ties if required by just using 2x4's or larger beams? (Point is...maybe I can ask my framer friend to help me with that if necessary)

This brings up another point - if the inspector comes and tells me I need those, since the house got a CO with this room framed as is, can the inspector now require me (26 years later) to change the framing of the exterior walls and roof of this space?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

hat63 said:


> I see. It seems like it wouldn't be hard to add collar ties if required by just using 2x4's or larger beams? (Point is...maybe I can ask my framer friend to help me with that if necessary)
> 
> This brings up another point - if the inspector comes and tells me I need those, since the house got a CO with this room framed as is, can the inspector now require me (26 years later) to change the framing of the exterior walls and roof of this space?


Yes he can, you can argue that it has been fine for all these years but don't argue to long, he can say we will need an engineers report.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Perhaps I missed it, but did you ever talk to the JHA about this being grandfathered in?
I don't think any place would make you change what it there because of a code change.
It's worth the investigation if you haven't done so.
Before you start second guessing, have the inspector come out and explain things.
What have you got to lose? The space is there and it is up to code, or at least was when it was built.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

code or not, i would insulate as much as i could. insulation is one of those things that literally not only pays for itself, it keeps on paying.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Missouri Bound said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but did you ever talk to the JHA about this being grandfathered in?
> I don't think any place would make you change what it there because of a code change.
> It's worth the investigation if you haven't done so.
> Before you start second guessing, have the inspector come out and explain things.
> What have you got to lose? The space is there and it is up to code, or at least was when it was built.


What's a JHA?


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Fix'n it said:


> code or not, i would insulate as much as i could. insulation is one of those things that literally not only pays for itself, it keeps on paying.


Oh yes - I agree. I want to insulate as much as possible and also utilize as much of this space as possible too. I just don't know how to insulate the space up to R49 for the ceiling and R20 for the vertical walls - although nealtw gave me a solution of using 1.5 inch foam board over the current Rockwool R15 I already put in the walls and under the drywall which seems reasonable to get it to R20. 

So I'm left with how to insulate the front and back roof angles to R49. Someone mentioned something called furring out? so I can fit additional batts in the rafters. The front of the roof is very steep and framed with 2x6's and the back roof (I think it's called a shed roof) is framed with 2x10's. I have baffles installed almost to the ridge vent for air movement and purchased Rockwool R30 batts for that before I knew the code had changed. I won't be wasting any insulation no matter what I do because I also have an unfinished basement and attic that could always use more insulation. I just don't want to have to reframe the room completely if I don't have to.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

furring out is when you add thickness to the studs. i did this to my walls, i cut 2x4's to 1" thick and nailed them to the studs = more insulation.


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

Fix'n it said:


> furring out is when you add thickness to the studs. i did this to my walls, i cut 2x4's to 1" thick and nailed them to the studs = more insulation.


When you do this, do you have to cover the entire length of the stud or just enough to have something to attach the drywall to? And when you say you cut the 2x4's to 1 inch, do you mean you ended up with 1x4's?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

hat63 said:


> When you do this, do you have to cover the entire length of the stud or just enough to have something to attach the drywall to? And when you say you cut the 2x4's to 1 inch, do you mean you ended up with 1x4's?


100%, and the tops and bottom plates. i cut 1 2x4 into 3 2x1's, caulk the stud and nail them on.
Neal says to do the XPS, thats a good idea.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

hat63 said:


> What's a JHA?


A typo for AHJ, Authority Having Jurisdiction. Your local building department, whoever the inspectors work for.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

I don't think I've seen drywall put on top of joists like that. You will get plenty of air movement into the attic through the unfinished joints. Increases probability of attic mold from condensation. And your inspector might not let it fly as the change in floors and to attics must be sealed to prevent fire from travelling/getting air from above.

Also after you furr out the angled roof rafters for the thickness of your Rvalue, you won't have a clean tapered edge butt on either side of those drywall transitions.
Also also how do you intend to hang your bath fan and any ceiling lighting (no recessed cans as the joists will block the light).


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## hat63 (Aug 1, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> I don't think I've seen drywall put on top of joists like that. You will get plenty of air movement into the attic through the unfinished joints. Increases probability of attic mold from condensation. And your inspector might not let it fly as the change in floors and to attics must be sealed to prevent fire from travelling/getting air from above.
> 
> Also after you furr out the angled roof rafters for the thickness of your Rvalue, you won't have a clean tapered edge butt on either side of those drywall transitions.
> Also also how do you intend to hang your bath fan and any ceiling lighting (no recessed cans as the joists will block the light).


Thanks for pointing these things out. This is a huge help to me. 

I was planning to seal every drywall seam and edge around those joists, from above and below. There's a ridge vent in the attic space with baffles going all the way to the ridge vent, so I am thinking the air in the attic space will circulate up and out the vent.

For the angled roof rafters, I was planning on doing whatever we need to do to have nice finished edges where the beams meet the furred out rafters and taping/spackling/sealing every nook and cranny. My goal is a completely air sealed space in the entire room. Does that make any sense?

Bath fan square frame and exhaust pipe is currently roughed in and just sitting inside a roof rafter at the moment, below a baffle and it's vented out to the soffit (the HVAC guys did that). That can be moved since it's just hanging from the rafter with a strap. We plan on ceiling fans/lights in the non-bathroom space hanging from the joists with wiring running up into the attic and down the wall where the electric panel will be. Bathroom lights will be on the wall and we are planning for a skylight in the bathroom on the angled part of the roof.

Please tell me if there are issues with this as you see it. Thanks again - this is all very helpful.


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## Elmer-Dallas Texas (9 mo ago)

I believe the suggestion for 1.5 inch foam board means you will be attaching 4' x 8' sheets to the face of framing after filling the void with the rockwool. Kudos for choosing rockwool over fiberglass.


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