# Is DIY solar popular?



## Andrew1980

Hello!

I am a solar enthusiast who also likes to work on new solar solutions.

It seems to me that DIY solar isn't really mainstream because of:
1. Permitting
2. Intimidation of doing the work yourself
3. Electrical wiring
4. Structural engineering

I was envisioning a product that would use flexible lightweight solar panels, it can be directly adhered to some type of UV resistive fabric, and just simply tie the system down through some holes penetrating on the eaves of the home. (No penetration directly over the living space of the home).

Based on my calculation, many jurisdictions will forego the structural engineering if it's 4 lbs/ ft2. This product should meet that, which means cost savings.

And no racking, no rails means that you can install it yourself in under 2 hours ( i've been playing around with it already). 

However, it's unclear to me how to market this product?

Is DIY solar kits popular? Why or why not?

-Andrew


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## Windows on Wash

Subscribing for any input here.


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## Animag771

I don't know if it's a popular thing or not, but I can tell you that I have looked into doing DIY solar. I actually intend to buy a 3KW kit (cheaper than piecing things together) and install it myself soon.


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## Oso954

I see a number of problems wih your idea.

Flexible panels are lower yield than traditional panels. Right now you are talking about 1/3 to 1/2 the power per square foot as compared to rigid panels. When you combine that with the fact that only about 1/2 the roof may have favorable exposure, you are significantly reducing the the generation.

I am not sure how you are planning to allow for roof access. There are setback requirements from the ridge and edges of the roof.

How long do you expect that UV resistant fabric to last? Especially in good solar regions, the fabric will fail before the life expectancy of the panels.

Moisture trapping under the fabric during wet seasons could cause rot that may shorten that life even further.

Your plan to drill holes thru the eaves is an open invitation to causing rot in the sheathing. If there are soffits under the eaves, you would be admitting water to the attic.

What other tie downs/roof attachments to you have in mind to meet high wind requirements ? (There is more to engineering than just the weight of the product)

Racks are more than just a structural tie down. By changing the angle of the panel relative to the roof slope and/or rotating the panels towards the sun, you can fine tune the performance of the panels.

Racks also allow you to shift the panels around on the roof as you go from one roof shape to another on different houses. You can also shift locations on similar houses to allow for things that may be optional like chimneys, skylights, etc.
How does your idea support these needs. Will each kit be custom built for the roof it going on ?


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## Yodaman

Andrew1980 said:


> Is DIY solar kits popular? Why or why not?



The sub set of people skilled enough to DIY their own roof top solar power system is so small, I am sure you could make more money selling pencils in front of your local grocery store.

I know the technology is better now, but when I priced up a system about 15 years ago, the ROI was 15 to 20 years and that included 50% cost subsidies from state and Fed gov't. 
I am all for efficiency and energy reducing technology as long as it cost justifies and actually saves $ within a reasonable amount of time and not financed on the backs of other tax paying citizens. Is this technology there yet?


What is the ROI of the system you plan to install? Any subsidies?


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## kitkopool

diy solar is very popular.
I would do it but I got rules in my place I can not do it as it might caught fire.
Sick rules


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## Red Squirrel

Solar products in general tend to be expensive so it's a bit more of a daunting task to DIY in case something goes wrong, and all warranties would most likely be void. I've been toying about it for a while myself. I would probably end up getting a company to install racking on the roof so I don't have to worry about roof penetrations, but then I'd do the rest myself like the actual panel install, electrical, battery bank etc. Honestly, water scares me more than electricity. I will tend to avoid anything to do with roofing, but I'll do electrical without even thinking twice about it. 

Though one of the issues too is how some cities are really nazi about permits and stuff, and solar is kinda hard to hide.


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## DallasCowboys

Andrew1980 said:


> I was envisioning a product that would use *flexible lightweight solar panels,* it can be directly adhered to some type of UV resistive fabric, and just simply tie the system down through some holes penetrating on the eaves of the home. (No penetration directly over the living space of the home).


That sounds like a good idea but a bit late. TESLA is introducing solar shingles this year and that will probably be the new trend. Solar Panels are heavy and unsightly. The solar shingles being introduced are designed to replace traditional shingles and still produce electricity.

I think that is the new trend...... designing solar panels to blend into the environment.


https://www.tesla.com/solar


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## Deja-vue

After talking to a lot of "Solar Companies", i decided to install my very own System.
They wanted to charge me around $32000.-- to $40.000. for a 8 KW System.

Since my Roof is pretty new, installed in 2013, i decided to do it myself.
I got my trusty Roofer with me, and a certified Electrician.
I did all the Research, got the Parts, applied for the Permit, had the Design done, etc. Took me a while, but it was worth it.

The Result is a 12 KW System, producing more power than I ever need and is fully paid for.
Here is a Drone Video of the finished project:






And it cost me a fraction of what those Solar Companies would have charged me.
lain:


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## Deja-vue

Oh,
And none of my Panels are visible from the Street.


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## DallasCowboys

Deja-vue said:


> They wanted to charge me around $32000.-- to $40.000. for a 8 KW System.
> 
> The Result is a 12 KW System, producing more power than I ever need and is fully paid for.
> 
> And *it cost me a fraction *of what those Solar Companies would have charged me.


12 KW is a lot of solar panels...

Are you in Cali.....the trees and neighborhood remind me of the area. 
OK........I see it now........Long Beach, CA.

Do you get reimbursed for the extra you produce?

How much did it finally cost you...did you buy a kit or research everything and buy it piecemeal?

Nice job.


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## Deja-vue

Yes, I am getting paid by Edison.
The entire System cost me about $18.000,
Parts and Labor.
Then, I got a $4500 Tax Break from the Feds.
:wink2:


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## MrElectricianTV

Andrew1980 said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am a solar enthusiast who also likes to work on new solar solutions.
> 
> It seems to me that DIY solar isn't really mainstream because of:
> 1. Permitting
> 2. Intimidation of doing the work yourself
> 3. Electrical wiring
> 4. Structural engineering
> 
> I was envisioning a product that would use flexible lightweight solar panels, it can be directly adhered to some type of UV resistive fabric, and just simply tie the system down through some holes penetrating on the eaves of the home. (No penetration directly over the living space of the home).
> 
> Based on my calculation, many jurisdictions will forego the structural engineering if it's 4 lbs/ ft2. This product should meet that, which means cost savings.
> 
> And no racking, no rails means that you can install it yourself in under 2 hours ( i've been playing around with it already).
> 
> However, it's unclear to me how to market this product?
> 
> Is DIY solar kits popular? Why or why not?
> 
> -Andrew


I think Lowes and Costco sold DIY solar power kits at one time. Not sure if they still do.

In order to get permits and an approved solar power installation, the materials need to be UL (Or another laboratory) listed and approved for the purpose. You will need to pay for this testing and approval.

The installation will need to conform to local building and electrical codes, which the average DIYer has limited knowledge of. Also working on a roof is dangerous. Companies that do work on roofs are required to follow OSHA guidelines for safety.


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## Deja-vue

I bought my Panels from Craigslist.

Here is a very good Example, in New Jersey:

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/for/6008046810.html

That's $116 per panel, Guys!


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## craig11152

Deja-vue said:


> Yes, I am getting paid by Edison.
> The entire System cost me about $18.000,
> Parts and Labor.
> Then, I got a $4500 Tax Break from the Feds.
> :wink2:



Does that system supply all your need? 

And what kind of drone do you have?


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## Deja-vue

craig11152 said:


> Does that system supply all your need?
> 
> And what kind of drone do you have?


The System produces way more than I need.
That Drone was a Friends, a Phantom III.


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> Oh,
> And none of my Panels are visible from the Street.


you still would need to tie it into the 'grid' which means getting your utility involved.


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> I bought my Panels from Craigslist.
> 
> Here is a very good Example, in New Jersey:
> 
> https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/for/6008046810.html
> 
> That's $116 per panel, Guys!


$2.69 / watt - I can get new panels for that price from a vendor


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## Deja-vue

KPDMinc said:


> you still would need to tie it into the 'grid' which means getting your utility involved.


Yeeez.
:vs_mad:
It is tied to the Grid, has been inspected by Edison and the City of Long Beach permitted it.
100% LEGAL.


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## lenaitch

Solar voltaic shingles sound promising but I would think it will take a while for them to obtain approval and even longer to gain acceptance. Consumers will have to be convinced that they will be durable.

The advantages of solar power fall off quickly as your latitude moves north since the sun's energy is much weaker during the winter months, no to mention periods when the roof/panels are covered in snow.


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> Yeeez.
> :vs_mad:
> It is tied to the Grid, has been inspected by Edison and the City of Long Beach permitted it.
> 100% LEGAL.


I must have read something wrong. Not insinuating anything... If you have that system for less than a buck a watt, you did good. Congrats. Welcome to club 'net zero'


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## craig11152

Deja-vue said:


> The System produces way more than I need.
> That Drone was a Friends, a Phantom III.


Have you calculated how long it will take to break even with your kickbacks from the electric company? I assume they buy your surplus? I'm just curious so feel free to tell me to MYOB. 

I live in Michigan and at my age (65) I will likely be dead before I hit break even from my limited research.

Interestingly here in Michigan if you put solar on your roof its considered an improvement which then raises your property taxes.


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## KPDMinc

craig11152 said:


> Have you calculated how long it will take to break even with your kickbacks from the electric company? I assume they buy your surplus? I'm just curious so feel free to tell me to MYOB.
> 
> I live in Michigan and at my age (65) I will likely be dead before I hit break even from my limited research.
> 
> Interestingly here in Michigan if you put solar on your roof its considered an improvement which then raises your property taxes.


best way to determine a 'break even' is to take the overall system price and divide your current electric bill into it. this would give you a pretty accurate pay-off period. That is, if you are net zero, you would have had to pay the electric company anyway. The amount they pay you for 'surplus' is squat. they get you there, so no need to really oversize the system


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## Deja-vue

Craig,
It is not just the Kickback from the Power Company, I am saving $275/month in Energy Cost.
I own my own Computer Business and run it from my Home.
The First Year the Power Company owes me around $800.
(squat?)
The next Year might be more, because of added Panels.
I figured about 4-5 Years until I break even.
Today, for example, I produced some 40 KWh as we speak.
Triple that in the Summer months.
In a full Year I did *12 Megawatts*. That is a lot of Juice.


The only thing I regret is that I didn’t do it earlier.
One thing I might add in the next few years is a whole House Battery, such as the Tesla-Wall.
But I’m waiting for the LG-Chem, which is widely sold in Europe and Australia.


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> Craig,
> It is not just the Kickback from the Power Company, I am saving $275/month in Energy Cost.
> I own my own Computer Business and run it from my Home.
> The First Year the Power Company owes me around $800.
> (squat?)
> The next Year might be more, because of added Panels.
> I figured about 4-5 Years until I break even.
> Today, for example, I produced some 40 KWh as we speak.
> Triple that in the Summer months.
> In a full Year I did *12 Megawatts*. That is a lot of Juice.
> 
> 
> The only thing I regret is that I didn’t do it earlier.
> One thing I might add in the next few years is a whole House Battery, such as the Tesla-Wall.
> But I’m waiting for the LG-Chem, which is widely sold in Europe and Australia.



you created 12 million watts? would have to disagree with that. and yes, 66.67 a month for what ever overage to me is 'squat' sorry, just my opinion.


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## Deja-vue

I don't know what your problem is, KPDMinc.
In one year I produced 12.420 MWh, it is a FACT.
The Reading comes from my SMA Inverters.
Why is that so hard to believe?
Why would I be lying?


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> I don't know what your problem is, KPDMinc.
> In one year I produced 12.420 MWh, it is a FACT.
> The Reading comes from my SMA Inverters.
> Why is that so hard to believe?
> Why would I be lying?


1MW = 1000 KW = 1000000 W

IF 250 W MODULES are used

THEN no of modules = 1000000W / 250 =4000 modules

GENERALLY 1 250 W MODULE OCCUPIES 1.6 SQM OF AREA ,SO

1.6 Sq m * 4000 = 6400 sqm 

THIS IS JUST THE AREA OF THE PANELS .YOU need to take into consideration the extra area required for spacing between panels to prevent shadowing on panels.


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## Deja-vue

You know what, Buddy.
you don't get it. I don't make 12MWh/day.
I made it per *Year.*

I just wanted to get some DIY'ers who are on the Fence into Solar.
But with all these "I know better that you Folks" around here, I better move on now.


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## KPDMinc

Deja-vue said:


> You know what, Buddy.
> you don't get it. I don't make 12MWh/day.
> I made it per *Year.*
> 
> I just wanted to get some DIY'ers who are on the Fence into Solar.
> But with all these "I know better that you Folks" around here, I better move on now.


just a little info. this is a 20MW system that I bid, and my company recently finished. There is no feasible way your 40 panels produce anywhere near 12MW. just sayin. Im not trying to piss you off, just setting things straight, as you said, for future DIYers. you dont want to mislead them...


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## Deja-vue




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## djlandkpl

Apples and oranges. MW is not the same as Mwh https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/t...stalled-capacity-mw-and-energy-generation-mwh

My system produced 10.96 Mwh last year.


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## Yodaman

Regarding *Deja-vue's* system, with his $275 monthly utility savings, plus the $67 monthly sell back, it pushes the average monthly cash flow in a positive direction in the amount of $342. And with a $13500 net cost gives him a 40 month break even.

If those are the actual numbers, doesn't sound horrible.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky

Deja-vue said:


> Craig,
> It is not just the Kickback from the Power Company, I am saving $275/month in Energy Cost.
> I own my own Computer Business and run it from my Home.
> The First Year the Power Company owes me around $800.
> (squat?)
> The next Year might be more, because of added Panels.
> I figured about 4-5 Years until I break even.
> Today, for example, I produced some 40 KWh as we speak.
> Triple that in the Summer months.
> In a full Year I did *12 Megawatts*. That is a lot of Juice.
> 
> 
> The only thing I regret is that I didn’t do it earlier.
> One thing I might add in the next few years is a whole House Battery, such as the Tesla-Wall.
> But I’m waiting for the LG-Chem, which is widely sold in Europe and Australia.


I don't understand. Right now with your grid-tie, the utility buys whatever you're producing but don't need. At night, or during periods where your usage exceeds your own production, the utility sells it back to you. They're acting as your battery and it's free. What would having your own battery gain you?


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## Deja-vue

> What would having your own battery gain you?


Independence from the Grid.
Also worried that they someday no longer pay for overproduction.
No more worries about our "rolling Black-outs" in California.
Stable, clean Energy.
the Battery is around $8000.


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## KPDMinc

I can see where the confusion is. which I kind of assumed all along, in post 25, you mentioned 12Megawatts. Posts past that you where actually referring to MWH. two totally different terms. Congrats on your output, and many happy years of not paying the utility.


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## KPDMinc

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't understand. Right now with your grid-tie, the utility buys whatever you're producing but don't need. At night, or during periods where your usage exceeds your own production, the utility sells it back to you. They're acting as your battery and it's free. What would having your own battery gain you?


Lawnguy - in essence, when you install solar, it only turns your meter backwards. So, if it turns back more than you use, thats where you would get a 'credit' so to speak. Once a year (most) utilities have a 'true-up' period where they determine what is owed by either party. By having batteries, you can use the stored power during times where the meter is not able to run backwards due to the panels not producing ie: nighttime cloudy, etc...


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## Oso954

Battery banks complicate the heck out of a solar system. 
The first thing is, if you already have solar, it is probably a grid tie only inverter. You would need to replace the inverter with a grid tie battery back up type.

Batteries take space, preferably in properly vented battery boxes or battery rooms. 

Batteries take maintanance. For a flooded lead acid types, at least once a month. 

Your battery life is most likely to be shorter than your panel life. It varies from 4-8 years for golf cart type batteries to 18-24 years for premium industrial class batteries. Both of those assume proper sizing, operation and maintanance.

On the other hand, I know people that have killed their battery bank in less than a year. How many times are you going to spend that $8,000 ? Or possibly more ?

What rolling blackouts are you talking about ? Are they the projected ones for SoCal as a result of the Porter Ranch gas leak ? If that's the reason, I would re-evaluate it. Loosing power for a few hours, perhaps 14 times this summer isn't that big of a problem. If you are worried about the refrigerator/AC, a generator can handle that.


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## Deja-vue

Educate yourself on Home Batteries:

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/lg-chem-resu-6-4ex-vs-tesla-powerwall/

:smile:


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## DallasCowboys

lenaitch said:


> Solar voltaic shingles sound promising but I would think *it will take a while for them to obtain approval and even longer to gain acceptance. Consumers will have to be convinced that they will be durable.
> *
> *The advantages of solar power fall off quickly as your latitude moves north* since the sun's energy is much weaker during the winter months, no to mention periods when the roof/panels are covered in snow.


It won't take any longer for them to get approval than any other solar panel.
I think it was GAF that sold solar shingles up to a couple of years ago . But they stopped selling them. I think they were too early to the market.

If Elon Musk can invent PayPal, build a car from nothing to world class in 3 years and put a rocket into space; he can get approval for a roofing shingle. 

You are right, they do become less efficient, so the answer to that is store up excess energy with a Tesla battery and add more shingles to your house to make up for less efficiencies. It costs .32 KWH for electricity in Alaska and Hawaii. At those prices for electricity, solar panels are competitive.


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## Oso954

> I think it was GAF that sold solar shingles up to a couple of years ago . But they stopped selling them. I think they were too early to the market.


Yes, and Dow also got out of the business last year.

The market has been small. There were some people willing to buy them just to avoid the look of solar panels. The others that bought were forced to by HOA's that had no panel rules.

We will see if Tesla can do better.


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## lenaitch

DallasCowboys said:


> It won't take any longer for them to get approval than any other solar panel.


In addition to any electrical approvals, there may also be approval, certification or whatever as a building material before municipalities and probably insurance companies will accept them.. Market acceptance may be tougher - people will need assurance that multi-thousand dollars worth of electric shingles will last at least as long as current ones.

Even at my middle latitude (approx 45N) neighbours that have solar panels say that their output is significantly reduced during the winter. At very high latitudes, such as much of Alaska and the Canadian north, the sun effectively disappears for extended periods.

Regardless, anything that works and is cost effective is a good idea.


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## DallasCowboys

I saw this online today and thought about this thread.......


A company is designing a liquid that is applied to standard windows to create solar energy.

If you’re searching for the solar panel of the future, why not consider those created by the aptly-named SolarWindow Technologies, which transform regular windows into photovoltaics, capable of producing 50 times greater electrical energy than rooftop panels, when modeled for a 50-story building.

more..........

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/solar-windows-50-times-more-effective/



And this company makes solar panels that blend in with the environment. Their panels are more attractive than the standard black ones. The solar panels we are used to remind me of Henry Ford......'you can get a Model T in any color as long as it is black'.... these people have the right idea.

----
If you wouldn't buy solar panels because you think they're ugly, Sistine Solar might have the solution to saving you money and energy.

If you feel like solar panels break the lines of your home’s aesthetic, or think that covering your roof in solar cells is a waste of advertising space, Sistine Solar’s new solar skins could be what you’re looking for. They let you make your rooftop panels look like whatever you want, without much impact on efficiency.

more.........
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home/sistine-solar-skins/



It's changes like this.......chemical additives to standard glass, attractive panels that blend in to the home and Tesla's new shingles; that are going to make solar grow. It's just as important as increasing the efficiency.

Just my .02.


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## Red Squirrel

Oso954 said:


> Batteries take maintanance. For a flooded lead acid types, at least once a month.
> 
> Your battery life is most likely to be shorter than your panel life. It varies from 4-8 years for golf cart type batteries to 18-24 years for premium industrial class batteries. Both of those assume proper sizing, operation and maintanance.
> 
> On the other hand, I know people that have killed their battery bank in less than a year. How many times are you going to spend that $8,000 ? Or possibly more ?


If you're having to add electrolyte to the batteries every month you're probably overcharging them. Idealy you want to keep them within 20-25C and charge them at 2.25v per cell (ex: 54v for a 48v bank). Proper maintenance is key. They will do fine at lower temps but you may need to increase charging voltage. There's various charts etc to go by. Probably want to equalize every now and then too. 

Personally what I'd probably do is start with a cheaper bank, like 8 Canadian Tire brand 12v batteries (2 strings of 48v) then once I have my usage pattern/maintenance/alarming etc in a row, I would add a more expensive battery bank. 

Midpoint voltage alarm is a good idea too, as it can detect early thermal run away or other cell issues. What sucks about getting a bad cell though is that by the time it happens they might not make that particular cell anymore, so now your whole string is pooched as you won't be able to find a matching replacement. You want all the same amp hour rating for the batteries in a given string.

It's crossed my mind to go the DIY route for the batteries, but no idea where you'd even get the raw materials for that. For the containers could probably use mason jars with plastic caps and drill out terminals, but for the actual lead or the acid I doubt it's something you can just buy.


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## Oso954

> If you're having to add electrolyte to the batteries every month you're probably overcharging them.


I didn't say anything about adding electrolyte. I said maintenance. As in visually inspect, and take hydrometer readings, etc.

Your battery cells need topping off occasionally with distilled water, deionized water, or water from an RO system. In a big battery bank, you do tend to hit a few every month.

You do not use "electrolyte". Adding acid to a healthy FLA battery can be a cause of premature failure.


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## Red Squirrel

Sorry by electrolyte I meant distilled water. I usually have to add some once a year to my UPS battery bank.


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## Flannel Guy DIY

I dont think the government is truly serious about going solar. They incentives and regulations do not make it easy. Heck you have "the sunshine state" of Florida with regulations there basically preventing people from going solar. The whole thing is crazy and an energy scam


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## KPDMinc

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> I dont think the government is truly serious about going solar. They incentives and regulations do not make it easy. Heck you have "the sunshine state" of Florida with regulations there basically preventing people from going solar. The whole thing is crazy and an energy scam


I disagree with you. You must have some pretty cheap utility rates. How would you define it being a 'scam'?


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## Flannel Guy DIY

a scam in the sense that they SAY they are about eliminating fossil fuels but in reality their efforts to go solar are minimal. Why is it that the cost remains high? No matter what you do, there is a 7 year pay back on the equipment. half of the homes in the US should be solar by now. They aren't because the utility companies are in the pockets of the politicians


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## KPDMinc

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> a scam in the sense that they SAY they are about eliminating fossil fuels but in reality their efforts to go solar are minimal. Why is it that the cost remains high? No matter what you do, there is a 7 year pay back on the equipment. half of the homes in the US should be solar by now. They aren't because the utility companies are in the pockets of the politicians


Not every home in the US can benefit from solar. I would say pretty close to half in my area are already on solar power. I benefit ALOT from having it...


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## Flannel Guy DIY

I think many can benefit. We are just scratching the surface


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## Red Squirrel

The government does not want too much solar/renewable energy, they only want enough to get good PR to buy votes. If most people went solar or otherwise generated their own power it means people are less dependent on the grid. Or if electric cars take off it means they are less dependent on oil. I could see the government put a stop to electric cars if they do take off to the point of threatening big oil. They just need to use safety as an excuse if there are one too many lithium ion related fires. Because gas can't catch on fire. 

At this point I don't think the feds are the real issue though, it's municipalities. A lot of them simply won't allow solar installations or make it very hard by requiring permits because of bylaws etc.


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## dgghostkilla

solar still too much $$ I think


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