# New water heater only sending hot water for a short while



## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Smart money is bad dip tube.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

We have confirmed that the hot and cold are not reversed on the water heater.

We have also run the hot water till it turned cold then went to the basement and touched the hot pipe to see whether it was hot or cold. The pipe was hot. If the pipe was cold this supposedly means that the heater's dip stick is broken which would cause the problem I'm having.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

My previous water heater was really old. It was installed around 1967. This thing was amazing. The only reason I replaced it is that its shutoff began leaking and it looked too fragile to fix. 

I'm attaching some photos.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Does this happen at any faucet? Something else to try if you have not fixed the problem yet. Run a test rather than a full shower. When the water turns cold, run down to the basement and feel the hot outlet pipe of the heater. This latter could rule out an antiscald assembly up in a shower valve (or sold separately) malfunctioning and mixing in too much cold water.

Also the washing machine hookup should be turned off at the wall when not in use, which will prevent short circuiting of hot and cold water and also all sinks and other showers should be turned off using their regular faucets and not a sprayer hose shutoff.

(OT)
Allcraft? 1967? The apartment I grew up in (in the 1950's in Cambridge, MA) had an Allcraft with a copper tank (which replaced what I think was an INCO nickel tank). Such a tank will last a very long time.


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

stripedbass said:


> Two days ago I had a new water heater installed. It's an AO Smith.
> 
> However, I'm only getting hot water for a minute or so and then the water turns cold. Then after an hour and I turn on the hot water tap, the same thing happens. The hot water comes on then it turns cold after a minute.
> 
> ...



Although rare, sometimes you can get one dead on arrival for some reason. It's a brand new install, if it doesn't work properly, the plumber should replace it with another one. Just my opinion.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Unlike the past 3 days, today I did not get hot water for even a minute. The water is just cold.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

I had already tried this test. The hot pipe was hot when the water turned cold (someone had suggested the test to me). But thanks for trying to help me!



AllanJ said:


> Run a test rather than a full shower. When the water turns cold, run down to the basement and feel the hot outlet pipe of the heater. This latter could rule out an antiscald assembly up in a shower valve (or sold separately) malfunctioning and mixing in too much cold water.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Obviously , you do not have any hot recirculating system involved.... or I'm sure you would have mentioned that.

*Does this happen at other faucets through out the home.*????

Maybe a strange coincidence with a bad shower anti-scald... I don't really know how they work... but perhaps the new water heater is set to deliver a higher temp than the old, and when it hits your anti-scald shower valve, that shower valve is acting strangly.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Maybe I missed it, but Allan asked "Does this happen at any faucet?" Is this just a problem at the shower?

If it is happening at all faucets then (as suggested) look for an anti scald device that can mix cold water into the hot.

I assume no other plumbing changes were made when water heater was installed?

Bud


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Do you have single handle moen faucets? A bad O ring on the cartrige will allow pulling cold water into the hot water.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

To your other points:

1) Yes, the problem with not getting steady hot water happens with all my faucets. I only have 2 faucets at the moment (kitchen and shower). My bath sink is disconnected at the moment (I need to install a new undermount sink bowl). I'm attaching photos of my faucets in case they are a factor.

2) My washing machine is always turned off when I'm not using it. And it does not have a switch on the wall. The only power switch is on the washing machine itself.

3) Yes, those Allcrafts are real beauties. :smile:

I'm in a 12-unit condo building. When I bought my condo in 2004, the home inspector told me that my Allcraft could last a week or another 10 years. The only reason I replaced it is because its shutoff was leaking and it seemed too fragile to fix. Now I'm kind of regretting it. We could have just turned the building's main shutoff off and replaced the water heater's shutoff. On well...



AllanJ said:


> Does this happen at any faucet?......
> 
> Also the washing machine hookup should be turned off at the wall when not in use, which will prevent short circuiting of hot and cold water and also all sinks and other showers should be turned off using their regular faucets and not a sprayer hose shutoff.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Today I'm getting hot water which seems to last a bit longer before it runs out the cold comes in. 

The plumber has not been able to swing by place. Says he's really busy but will try his best.



stripedbass said:


> Unlike the past 3 days, today I did not get hot water for even a minute. The water is just cold.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

jmon,

We'll see what happens. I hope the plumber, if he cannot fix the problem, will do the right thing.



jmon said:


> Although rare, sometimes you can get one dead on arrival for some reason. It's a brand new install, if it doesn't work properly, the plumber should replace it with another one. Just my opinion.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

MTN,

I don't think I have a hot recirculating system. I hope my faucet photos give you an idea of what I have.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Obviously , you do not have any hot recirculating system involved.... or I'm sure you would have mentioned that.
> 
> *Does this happen at other faucets through out the home.*????
> 
> Maybe a strange coincidence with a bad shower anti-scald... I don't really know how they work... but perhaps the new water heater is set to deliver a higher temp than the old, and when it hits your anti-scald shower valve, that shower valve is acting strangly.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Bud,

I know that my kitchen faucet is a Moen. I'm not sure what brand is my shower faucet. 

Are you suggesting I get an anti scald device or that I look to see whether I have one?

The only plumbing change that was made was the installation of a new shutoff to the water heater (in addition to replacing the one right above the water heater). We had to do this because the shutoff right above the heater did not shut off the hot water. It only shut off the cold water). This is why we had to shut off the building's main shutoff. But now with this secondary shutoff I do not have to shutoff the building's main shutoff. I'm attaching two photos below. I don't know whether they'll be clear enough for you to see. I think I'll have to take better photos of the shutoffs and post them.



Bud9051 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but Allan asked "Does this happen at any faucet?" Is this just a problem at the shower?
> 
> If it is happening at all faucets then (as suggested) look for an anti scald device that can mix cold water into the hot.
> 
> ...


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Your bath sink is disconnected, how is it disconnected. Show us a picture.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Not suggesting you need an anti-scald but trying to determine if you have one. Not a plumber so going to watch from the sidelines.

Bud


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Shower anti-scald devices are usually part of the shower valve (and inside the wall behind).

Finding the hot pipe from the water heater still very hot after the water turned cold at the faucet tells me the water heater is not at fault.

You might have sediment or foreign matter floating around in the hot water pipes that may rise up to the shower valve or faucet being used and block the hot flow shortly after the faucet is turned on.

The only way I can think of for getting rid of this in a shower or bathtub is: Turn off the main water valve for the house. Disassemble the faucet or valve, removing the stem or cartridge. Cover the drain. Close the shower curtain. Go back downstairs and turn on the water a little. Go up and observe the flow. Go up and down to open the main valve a little more and check upstairs to get a good flow but not enough to push the shower curtain aside and get all over the floor. Let it run at a good clip for a few minutes. Then turn off the water and go up to see if the sediment came out. Re-assemble the faucets/valve.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi rj,

Attached below is a photo that shows how my bath sink is disconnected.

Please let me know if you need further information. 

Thanks for trying to help me!



rjniles said:


> Your bath sink is disconnected, how is it disconnected. Show us a picture.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Reference to post #13. He's to busy to come by? You call him and tell him to get his ass back ASAP to find and fix or replace the water heater. 2 days old he's ridiculous.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

I really appreciate your feedback. 

The only problem is that the old water heater did not have this problem. If the problem may be what you're describing, wouldn't the previous heater have had the same problem? In fact, with the old heater, I did not turn the kitchen sink and shower faucet all the way for I could scald myself (and the heat temperature knob on the old heater was always at a conservative setting! I never had it on a high setting). 



AllanJ said:


> Shower anti-scald devices are usually part of the shower valve (and inside the wall behind).
> 
> Finding the hot pipe from the water heater still very hot after the water turned cold at the faucet tells me the water heater is not at fault.
> 
> ...


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Has the dip tube been checked?


Some times the most simplest of answers is the answer.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Akpsdvan,

I turned the hot water on in the kitchen sink then went to the basement. The pipe on my water heater with the red ring was hot. Someone told me that if the pipe was cold then the dip tube would be the problem.



Akpsdvan said:


> Has the dip tube been checked?
> 
> 
> Some times the most simplest of answers is the answer.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Have you removed the nipple and checked in the tank to make sure that it is there?


Even a new tank and have a challenge with the dip tube.


Eyes on is very often the best way to make sure some thing is correct.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

If the man paid a plumber to install the d thing it is not his job to check anything.


And if I had no hot water by now I would sure be filing a complaint with the BBB.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Akpsdvan,

Thanks for the suggestion!

I have to say that I don't think the plumber removed the nipple to check the tank and see whether the tube is there. As far as I know he just touched the hot water pipe.

Can the pipe be hot even if the dip tube is missing or broken?



Akpsdvan said:


> Have you removed the nipple and checked in the tank to make sure that it is there?
> 
> 
> Even a new tank and have a challenge with the dip tube.
> ...


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Turn the water heater water supply valve off. Turn on kitchen faucet to hot. What happens?


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Can the pipe be hot even if the dip tube is missing or broken?



Yes. At idle, the heat from the tank will convectively heat the pipe above it. In fact, if you haven't run the tap for a while, even the cold water pipe feeding the water heater will become hot.


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

Let's see if I understand all you have said. You have a kitchen faucet (a single handle Moen), a lavatory faucet (which is disconnected) a shower valve and a clothes washer.
You have said that when you are using hot water from either the kitchen faucet or shower and the water turned cold you have gone down to the water heater and the hot water output pipe is hot. That certainly indicates that the water coming out the faucet is not coming from the water heater. Suggest that you turn off the stop valve on the cold water input pipe to the water heater. Then you will know that any water coming out of the hot water side of a valve is coming from cold water side. You then only have to determine where. We know it can't be the bath lavatory faucet because it is physically disconnected. I have never heard of a cross over in a Moen valve but I suppose it could happen if the valve is open. Just not possible if the valve is closed. To eliminate any possibility however, close the hot water stop valve under your kitchen sink. It was suggested that it could possible be the washer and you said that it was unplugged. I suggest that you close the hot and cold water stop valves to the washer. That would eliminate any possibility of it being the washer mixing valve. 

That only leaves the anti-scald valve in the shower if your shower valve has an anti-scald valve. 



Given all that you have said that you have done so far, I have a question. 

You said that this is a 12 unit condominium and that your water heater is in the basement. Do you have your own private basement? My question is where is the water heaters for the other units.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Smart money is bad dip tube.




You would think that even an amateur plumber - that would be the first thing he checks.


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## ShaneFromAZ (Nov 18, 2018)

Have you ruled out any sort of sub terrain slab leak? If you had a hot water slab leak, you would hear your hot water tank always being filled up with cold water so that it could never get hot, meanwhile the hot water would be leaking out underground somewhere. This could account for the water never being hot.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> We have confirmed that the hot and cold are not reversed on the water heater.
> 
> We have also run the hot water till it turned cold then went to the basement and touched the hot pipe to see whether it was hot or cold. The pipe was hot. If the pipe was cold this supposedly means that the heater's dip stick is broken which would cause the problem I'm having.


 Do this test by touching and holding both hot and cold pipes while a second person runs maybe a gallon or two of hot water from the sink up stairs. If the hot pipe turns cold then hot again in about a minute or less, as mentioned previously several times, there is a real chance there is no dip tube delivering the cold water to the bottom of the tank where it belongs.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Not a plumber.....but looks like a gas heater so......gas connected correctly? Valve all the way to “on” position? Temp set correctly and not on “vacation” or the like? Main burner coming on when hot water is run? Unlikely that putting in the new heater would cause problems in both the shower and sink.....much more likely a problem with the heater. Will be interested in seeing eventual solution. Ron


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## Voxman (Sep 4, 2016)

I concur with ront02769 advice. It’s gas...check to see when gas flame comes on and what the setting is. More importantly, the plumber should have been back to correct this...inexcusable behavior. 
If dip tube is broken or missing, then this would be the symptom. I cannot think of anything else causing the problem other than what was mentioned here (improper thermostat setting; defective thermostat; dip tube missing/broken). Again it’s not your responsibility to figure out and fix....get Mr. Plumber back. 
Good luck !
Gary


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi hkstroud,

Thanks for the feedback.

I do not have my own private basement. Our condo building is one big structure. It has 4 columns. Each column has 3 floors (one condo unit per floor). Each column has its own basement.

On one end of my column's basement is my water heater. On the other end of the basement are the water heaters for my two neighbors in my column.

However, my water heater is next to the boilers of my two neighbors. I do not have a boiler because I'm on the top floor. All the top floor units have heaters that don't require a boiler. For example, I have a direct vent heater.

Below are some photos that might help you visualize what I'm trying to explain. The first photo on the left is of my water heater which is adjacent my neighbors' boilers. The photo on the right is of my neighbors' water heaters (on the other end of the basement).



hkstroud said:


> You said that this is a 12 unit condominium and that your water heater is in the basement. Do you have your own private basement? My question is where is the water heaters for the other units.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Turn the water heater water supply valve off. Turn on kitchen faucet to hot. What happens?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

I have 2 shutoffs for my water heater. One is near the cold water pipe. The other is a little away from the heater. The plumber installed the latter because the shutoff for my condo unit in the basement does not work completely. It shuts the cold water off but not the hot water. 

This is a separate plumbing issue. We had water shutoffs installed in each of the 4 basements in the building like 4 years ago. The idea was to avoid having to shut off the building's main shutoff whenever someone had to get some plumbing work done. Well, the shutoff in my basement shuts off the cold water but not the hot water. The plumber who installed the shutoffs for the whole building (different from the one who installed my water heater) must have missed something. We did not test his work when he completed the work so we only caught the problem later.

The photo on the left below is of the shutoff that the plumber installed for the hot water (the shutoff is green). The photo on the right, though it's quite dark, is supposed to show the cold water shutoff which is above the black knob (it's green like the other one). It too was installed by the same plumber because the previous one was very old, was the round kind and had began to leak. 

In fact, it was because of the shutoff leak that I decided to replace my old water heater. The heater itself was working fine but very, very old. You probably cannot see the photo on the right clearly. It's funny, on my cell phone the photo is clear but when I transferred it to the computer it got really dark. Maybe your computer screen is clearer and I need to adjust my computer screen somehow. 

So if I was to do you test, would I need to shut off both shutoffs for my water heater?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Turn the water heater water supply valve off. Turn on kitchen faucet to hot. What happens?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

stripedbass
So if I was to do you test said:


> I have no clue what this will accomplish, BUT, before closing both valves to a water heater I'd dam sure shut the fire off first, including the standing pilot if it has one.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

He is trying to determine you are looking at the right WH. No need to turn off burner or pilot light for a short test.

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

To do the last test turn off just one shutoff valve, the one just before the cold inlet to the water heater or the one in the hot outlet from the water heater.

Regarding the separate plumbing issue where the plumber put in a shutoff valve for your apartment that did not shut off the hot water, that is a very minor issue. His work was enough to avoid turning off the master cold water shutoff if work needed to be done in one of the other apartments or needed to be done in the cold plumbing of your apartment.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

On second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't do this test. Let me explain: So far I've avoided doing anything that involves altering the water heater in any way. The reason for this is that I do not want the plumber to have an excuse that I did something to the heater which is why it's not working.



AllanJ said:


> To do the last test turn off just one shutoff valve, the one just before the cold inlet to the water heater or the one in the hot outlet from the water heater.
> 
> Regarding the separate plumbing issue where the plumber put in a shutoff valve for your apartment that did not shut off the hot water, that is a very minor issue. His work was enough to avoid turning off the master cold water shutoff if work needed to be done in one of the other apartments or needed to be done in the cold plumbing of your apartment.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

It IS the water heater....somehow. So did you run the water and see if the burner fires off??? And with that said, this is TOTALLY on the plumber......unless yuo did the ill buy the unit and yuo install it deal......in which case you have a bigger issue.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I did not buy anything. The plumber bought the heater and installed it himself. He also took away my old heater.



ront02769 said:


> It IS the water heater....somehow. So did you run the water and see if the burner fires off??? And with that said, this is TOTALLY on the plumber......unless yuo did the ill buy the unit and yuo install it deal......in which case you have a bigger issue.


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

If you have cold water coming out the hot side of your kitchen faucet you have cold water coming into the hot water side from the cold side. The question is where?

One place that could happen is at the mixing valve of the clothes washing machine. My suggestion is that you close the valves at your washing machine. That will prevent that from happening if the mixing valve is defective.
If after closing the washer valves, you still get cold water out the hot side of the kitchen faucet, close cold water input valve on the water heater. You should no longer get *ANY* water out the hot side of the faucet. If you do then someone has done something between your water heater and you.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Please when the problem is discovered and fixed. Don't forget to tell us what was found. I think most people following this would like to hear the ending to this story.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> I have 2 shutoffs for my water heater. One is near the cold water pipe. The other is a little away from the heater. The plumber installed the latter because the shutoff for my condo unit in the basement does not work completely. It shuts the cold water off but not the hot water.
> 
> ...



The test requires you shutoff the COLD water valve that supplies the water heater. Then turn on the hot kitchen tap. If you get a steady never ending flow of cold water, it indicates that somehow cold water is piped into your hot water supply line, or as suggested the washer mixing valve is allowing cold water to crossover into the hot and backfeeding your plumbing.


If you get no water it means your water isn't going cold because of a pipe mix-up or mixing valve, but the WH is actually passing cold water which is most likely due to a broken or missing dip tube. 



The test also eliminates the possibility that the water heater in question isn't actually yours. Stranger things have happened. 





> On second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't do this test. Let me explain: So far I've avoided doing anything that involves altering the water heater in any way. The reason for this is that I do not want the plumber to have an excuse that I did something to the heater which is why it's not working.



I can't understand why you think the plumber would think you're shutting off the supply to your water heater could damage it. If that is your stance there is really nothing anybody can do to help you diagnose the problem.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The latest:

The plumber has not been able to swing by. Today I texted him. Then I left a message in his voice mail.

He texted me back. He's on vacation in Maine and won't get back till Jan. 2nd..

He doesn't really know what the problem is. He said not to worry and that the problem will be resolved. He also stated that he will pull a permit. I don't know what this means since he had never spoken of pulling a permit before.

He also said that I should try to turn the little black knob which controls the water temperature on the water heater. The idea is to increase the water temperature a bit and see what happens then text him. He cautioned that I don't want anything more than 130°. I have not yet done anything with the knob.

He also said that he might want to get access to my neighbor's condo unit since my neighbor and I have connected plumbing. He said he thinks my neighbor may be causing the problem but did not explain.

In all honesty, I'm confused and beginning to get a bit anxious. Keep in mind that I've already paid this plumber $1650.00.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

stripedbass said:


> The latest:
> 
> The plumber has not been able to swing by. Today I texted him. Then I left a message in his voice mail.
> 
> ...


"I don't like the sound of this last post at all, I don't know your plumber and I don't like him either"


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Dear lord, turn up the “little black knob”.....like someone on this forum already told you to do.....and run the hot and see if the burner comes on. Plus, your plumber is crap. I would cancel my check.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I wrote the check a week ago (on the 18th). I'm sure it's cleared by now.

The only thing that's making me not to totally panic is that I googled the plumber's business and the BBB gives him an A+ rating.



ront02769 said:


> Dear lord, turn up the “little black knob”.....like someone on this forum already told you to do.....and run the hot and see if the burner comes on. Plus, your plumber is crap. I would cancel my check.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

Just got home.

I will try your test tomorrow. It's too late and dark in the basement now. 

This whole thing has been a major learning lesson for me and I've just been afraid to do anything wrong. So please bear with me when I sometimes seem stubborn or just dumb.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The test requires you shutoff the COLD water valve that supplies the water heater. Then turn on the hot kitchen tap. If you get a steady never ending flow of cold water, it indicates that somehow cold water is piped into your hot water supply line, or as suggested the washer mixing valve is allowing cold water to crossover into the hot and backfeeding your plumbing.
> 
> If you get no water it means your water isn't going cold because of a pipe mix-up or mixing valve, but the WH is actually passing cold water which is most likely due to a broken or missing dip tube.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Ront,

I will try your test as well tomorrow.

Your test involves simply turning up the black knob, and turning my kitchen or shower faucet to hot, and then going back to the basement to see whether the burner is on?

If the burner is on will I hear a particular sound or should I look for a particular visual sign?



ront02769 said:


> Dear lord, turn up the “little black knob”.....like someone on this forum already told you to do.....and run the hot and see if the burner comes on. Plus, your plumber is crap. I would cancel my check.


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## deamer1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Hi, 

a suggestion for you. Having just went through the same problem over Christmas.


Follow the hot water line out of the heater and look for any kind of mixing valve and/or a possible swing gate valve, with a connection tying the cold and hot water lines together through the valve. 



A swing gate valve is a one way valve which allows the flow one way only

and not both ways. 

your problem appears to be a valve which is stuck open or partially open allowing only cold water to pass through and not hot water. 



A build up of rust/calcium whatever kind of gunk may be in the line over that many years and all it takes is a small amount of build up to keep the valve from completely closing. 



With no water usage, and the water heater having fired up and heated the tank to the desired temperature...the output water line will feel hot like it should. BUT only to any installed valve which may be in the line.
If the valve is stuck open the results would be, that you would get a small amount of hot water which is in the hot water line between the tank and the valve...Then only the cold water would flow through the valve giving you exactly what you have described. Finding this can be difficult because we don't all recognize these valves and what the purpose is. Water flows one way only (with the arrow) with a gate valve at a low pressure (1/2 psi to 2psi) completely closed in opposite direction.


From your photos I could not tell if you had valves in the water lines as they were taken at a distance, not close enough to see the lines well. 


Something for you to look at. Good luck and Enjoy your week!


Deamer1


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

stripedbass said:


> Ront,
> 
> I will try your test as well tomorrow.
> 
> ...


It is gas. As on all water heaters, there is a temperature knob. Check to see that it is turned up and not on vacation setting. Turn on your hot water. Go into the basement. You should hear stuff burning.....like a gas flame....and maybe even an exhaust fan. At the least, at the bottom of the heater there will be a little door that yuo can remove and look into....and SEE whether the main burner is on. Have fun.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Folks,

Thanks for your patience. Like I've said before, I really appreciate the feedback you have all given me. I actually had to make out a list of your suggestions then print it out. This was the only way I could proceed, given that this is all new to me. I have today tried to do the tests that you've suggested as a group. The only one I've not done is the one suggested by deamer1 even though I'm really grateful to him for it (I will save it for later since it's of a different nature than the others). 

Now I want to report my findings:

1) When I turn the small black knob on my water heater a little higher: I hear the burner go on. Please see one of the photos below to the see the setting that my heater is on at the moment.

2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:

a) I turn the kitchen faucet to hot: I get a steady stream of cold water.

b) I close the hot water valve under my kitchen sink: No water comes out of the faucet.

c) I close the hot & cold valves of my washer (after I turn on the hot water valve under the kitchen sink: I get a steady stream of cold water.

d) I turn off the cold water valve under my kitchen sink and turn on the hot water on the kitchen faucet (while the hot & cold water on the washer are off): I get a steady stream of cold water. 

Please let me know what you think about any of my answers above.

I'm attaching better photos of my water heater and its plumbing.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

"2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:

a) I turn the kitchen faucet to hot: I get a steady stream of cold water."

You have a cross connection between hot and cold piping.

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

rjniles said:


> "2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:
> 
> a) I turn the kitchen faucet to hot: I get a steady stream of cold water."
> 
> ...



Which begs the questions:
-Why didn't this cross connection affect the hot water supply before the water heater was replaced?


-If the plumber installed new valves how did he sweat them if the hot water pipe had a cold water backflow? The OP stated the plumber said_ "
He also said that he might want to get access to my neighbor's condo unit since my neighbor and I have connected plumbing. He said he thinks my neighbor may be causing the problem but did not explain."_


Meaning the plumber discovered the backflow because he had to shut off another unit's water and didn't tell the OP. In addition:


-If another unit's cold is connected to the OP's hot, wouldn't the other unit experience the inability to draw pure cold water as well?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

I had told the plumber that my neighbor and I share the same water shutoffs. But we are not in the same building column (remember, my building is made up of 4 vertical columns that are attached to each other. Each column has 3 condo units, one unit per floor. So each column has 3 floors). However, my neighbor and I are both on the 3rd floor of our respective columns. In other words, I'm in my column and she's in the adjacent column. Our units are side by side.

The other water heaters in my basement are for the 2 neighbors below me (not the neighbor with whom I share shutoffs with). The neighbor who shares shutoffs with me has her water heater in her column's basement which is different from my basement.

I don't know whether you can visualize what I'm trying to say.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Which begs the questions:
> 
> Meaning the plumber discovered the backflow because he had to shut off another unit's water and didn't tell the OP. In addition:
> 
> ...


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> I had told the plumber that my neighbor and I share the same water shutoffs. But we are not in the same building column (remember, my building is made up of 4 vertical columns that are attached to each other. Each column has 3 condo units, one unit per floor. So each column has 3 floors). However, my neighbor and I are both on the 3rd floor of our respective columns. In other words, I'm in my column and she's in the adjacent column. Our units are side by side.
> 
> ...



I understand completely, question is, why? Is your water metered? (unit by unit) Is your gas usage metered? This is all very odd.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

Strange plumbing indeed.



When you say you turned off the cold supply to the water heater, did you closed the gate valve (green handle quarter turn in your pic)?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I turned the green valve. 

Forgot to mention that I tried to turn the black knob but it just kept turning and turning. There must be another way to turn it off other than simply turning the black part. I didn't know and didn't want to try something stupid. 



lenaitch said:


> Strange plumbing indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say you turned off the cold supply to the water heater, did you closed the gate valve (green handle quarter turn in your pic)?


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

Let me mention something else that might explain the plumbing.

I've stated before that the building has 4 vertical columns attached to each other.

Each column has 3 floors and one unit on each floor.

Each column has its own basement.

I'm on the top floor of my column. The neighbor who shares water shutoffs with me is on top floor of the column immediately adjacent to mine.

HOWEVER, the units on the first and second floor of my column and the units on the first and second floor of the my neighbor's column are the largest in the building. 

This means they extend further back into the backyard than any of the units in the last 2 columns. 

Another way of thinking about this is that my bathroom is not directly above the bathrooms on the first and second floor of my column. 

My bathroom is like above my neighbor's living room while his bathroom is above the bathroom on the first floor. And this is the same situation with the neighbor on the 3rd floor in the immediately adjacent column (the one who shares shutoffs with me). 

But my bathroom is directly on the other side of the wall from my neighbor's bathroom (the one who shares shutoffs with me).

Have I confused you enough? :smile:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I understand completely, question is, why? Is your water metered? (unit by unit) Is your gas usage metered? This is all very odd.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

stripedbass said:


> I turned the green valve.
> 
> Forgot to mention that I tried to turn the black knob but it just kept turning and turning. There must be another way to turn it off other than simply turning the black part. I didn't know and didn't want to try something stupid.



I'm not much of a plumber but the black knob might be a pressure regulator. If there is some kind of cross-supply with your set-up (which I can't quite follow), you might have turned the output pressure of your heater right down.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> Let me mention something else that might explain the plumbing.
> 
> ...



There's no confusion whatsoever here. Everything you explained I get it - I can picture it. Nothing you've put out here explains why your next-unit neighbor's plumbing is connected to yours. If you have a gas meter, and every other unit has their own gas meters, nobody's hot water should be mixing in with another's regardless of the geographical layout of the units.


Nobody's hot water should be interconnected with someone else's hot or cold water. As a practical matter, if there is one common shared water meter then the cold doesn't matter. Maybe you don't have a separate gas meter? I don't know but i figured if you have your own heater units, and the lower 2 units have boilers, and there's 3 water heaters than I assumed each unit paid for their own gas usage. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Until the poster made this statement I would have bet the clod/hot input/output were reversed:

"2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:

a) I turn the kitchen faucet to hot: I get a steady stream of cold water."


I am now questing if he is looking at the right water heater. Apparently there are 3 in his section of the basement.

I would talk to the other 2 neighbors and cut the input to the 3 WHs and see if he still gets water out of the hot tap.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Folks,

God bless you all for bearing with me and trying to figure out my problem.

LawnGuy:

As far as I know, I have my own gas meter. I've been in this condo since 2004 and have always gotten my gas bill. And I assume it's the same for my neighbor who shares shutoffs with me. :smile:

The only other thing I may not have mentioned is the possible theory the plumber came up with when he installed the water heater and the problem emerged. 

He said that in some old buildings (mine was built in the 1920s) sometimes he has seen a few cases in which hot and cold water pipes are looped together in order to improve "circulation." He even drew me a rough diagram depicting a water heater and a pipe taking hot water or air up then it gets to a high point in the building and it's joined to another pipe that takes cold water or air down. 

At least that's the best I can recall from his explanation. He said that if this is the case, the challenge is to find where the connection was made. He added that often it was done at the highest point in the building, like the attic. But sometimes it could be behind a wall which would be a nightmare.

Does any of this sound familiar at all?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> There's no confusion whatsoever here. Everything you explained I get it - I can picture it. Nothing you've put out here explains why your next-unit neighbor's plumbing is connected to yours. If you have a gas meter, and every other unit has their own gas meters, nobody's hot water should be mixing in with another's regardless of the geographical layout of the units.
> 
> 
> Nobody's hot water should be interconnected with someone else's hot or cold water. As a practical matter, if there is one common shared water meter then the cold doesn't matter. Maybe you don't have a separate gas meter? I don't know but i figured if you have your own heater units, and the lower 2 units have boilers, and there's 3 water heaters than I assumed each unit paid for their own gas usage. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

rjniles,

I am certain I'm looking at my water heater because mine has always been at a different end of the basement from my two neighbors. Remember, their bathrooms and kitchens line up vertically while my bathroom and kitchen is in a different position from theirs. 



rjniles said:


> Until the poster made this statement I would have bet the clod/hot input/output were reversed:
> 
> "2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:
> 
> ...


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Folks,
> 
> God bless you all for bearing with me and trying to figure out my problem.
> 
> ...



I'm not a plumber by trade, but no I never heard of "looping" hot with cold, and I can't imagine what problem this could solve or what benefit it could provide. Perhaps someone more plumbing savvy has better insight.


What puzzles me is if your hot water pipe is plumbed into your cold water pipe or your neighbors, how did you ever get hot water before you replaced your water heater? I would think you could only get lukewarm at best. Further, if connected to the neighbors, your hot water supply would mix with their cold.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

> "2) When I turn off the cold water supply valve to the water heater then:
> 
> a) I turn the kitchen faucet to hot: I get a steady stream of cold water."



I've been wondering for about the last 30 posts and I sure hate to ask, but:


Are you 100% positive they plumber changed out the right water heater.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> What puzzles me is if your hot water pipe is plumbed into your cold water pipe or your neighbors, how did you ever get hot water before you replaced your water heater?


I suspect that's a puzzle to everyone here, including me.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

If it was working before he replaced the water heater and not after, he did something to cause it.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

rjniles said:


> if it was working before he replaced the water heater and not after, he did something to cause it.


"ditto"


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

With my old water heater I got hot water with no problem. The only thing was that when I turned on the shower faucet for the first time in the day (especially in the winter) I sometimes had to wait a little before the hot water arrived. 

When I told all this to my plumber he said that, well, maybe I had the old heater on the highest temperature setting. But this was never the case. I cannot recall for sure but my old water heater may have had 9 temperature settings. I almost always had it at 3 during spring, summer and fall and 4 in the winter. The water at these settings was hot enough for me. Anything higher would have scalded me.

Now, when I look back, I think I probably should have just replaced the shutoff which was leaking and continued to use the old heater.

The problem I'm having is really scaring me because it has the possibility of becoming a much more expensive project than I planned! I don't have more money to spend on this project!



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm not a plumber by trade, but no I never heard of "looping" hot with cold, and I can't imagine what problem this could solve or what benefit it could provide. Perhaps someone more plumbing savvy has better insight.
> 
> 
> What puzzles me is if your hot water pipe is plumbed into your cold water pipe or your neighbors, how did you ever get hot water before you replaced your water heater? I would think you could only get lukewarm at best. Further, if connected to the neighbors, your hot water supply would mix with their cold.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Folks,

Today I sent a text message to my plumber, informing him that nothing changed after I adjusted the small black knob, on the water heater, to the highest setting.

He just texted me back. He says:

"It's not the water heater. You have back pressure. You're getting the City pressure on your hot."

I really don't know what this means. I figured I'd first throw it out here and see what you folks think before I get back to him.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Any check valve? (as in, a valve that prevents back flow) check valve backwards?

Since you are in a 12-unit condo, any of the neighbors complaining of getting hot water instead of cold?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stripedbass said:


> Folks,
> 
> Today I sent a text message to my plumber, informing him that nothing changed after I adjusted the small black knob, on the water heater, to the highest setting.
> 
> ...


In a sort of indirect technical sense, he is not necessarily wrong....

*BUT he is not addressing the issue and I think his answer is BS.
*

If your hot /cold is mixing at some point, yes, the higher cold water pressure (of your city or your PRV valve) verse your reduced water pressure by turning on the hot is "technically" causing the problem. But the real problem would be where is it x-mixing.

But it wasn't doing that before he installed the new w-heater.

(Trying to think out-side-the-box..... Is there any chance that anyone else, city or other tenents, might have changed any plumbing at virtually the same time as the water heater install.

I know it would be a *long-shot coincidence*, but they do occur.

Stranger things have happened.

Do you know other tenents that you could ask... I could imagine some interior apartment plumbing work done at another tenents place, where your plumbing was accesable and *accidentally* accessed for a new install or something.)

Good luck...


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

If no one is available to hold the two pipes at the top of the heater, while a person up stairs is allowing hot water to run from the sink, to determine how much water can be drawn before or if the hot pipe turns cold, there is another simple way to determine if the dip tube is present and functioning as designed.


Drain 2 - 3 of gallons from the heater drain valve and if the dip tube is present and working properly the draining water temperature will decrease drastically at some point while those 2 - 3 gallons are being drained.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

MTN,

The neighbor on the first floor had her water heater changed a few months ago (the same plumber did the work). By the way, this is not the neighbor with whom I share water shutoffs.

And the neighbor on the second floor (immediately below me) got a new heating system, maybe a year ago. I know he used to have radiators but he now has a new system. I don't know what it's called (see attached photo below). 

But I do know that his new heating system is still attached to his boiler in the basement (his boiler and my first floor neighbor's boiler are both adjacent to my water heater and, I believe, there's shared plumbing between the two boilers and my water heater). I have a direct vent gas stove for my heating system.

The second floor neighbor is the one who informed me that my previous water heater's shutoff had a leak. He happened to be in the basement, refilling his furnace with water, he told me (I did not know that one had to do this). In any case, I was very grateful to him for notifying me of the leak. This is what led to my getting a new water heater since the previous one was very old.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> (Trying to think out-side-the-box..... Is there any chance that anyone else, city or other tenents, might have changed any plumbing at virtually the same time as the water heater install.
> 
> I know it would be a *long-shot coincidence*, but they do occur.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

If I get a friend over I'll definitely do your test. I'd rather do the first test than drain water from the heater.



SeniorSitizen said:


> If no one is available to hold the two pipes at the top of the heater, while a person up stairs is allowing hot water to run from the sink, to determine how much water can be drawn before or if the hot pipe turns cold, there is another simple way to determine if the dip tube is present and functioning as designed.
> 
> Drain 2 - 3 of gallons from the heater drain valve and if the dip tube is present and working properly the draining water temperature will decrease drastically at some point while those 2 - 3 gallons are being drained.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Rocky,

I have not heard of any neighbor complaining of getting hot water instead of cold. 



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> Any check valve? (as in, a valve that prevents back flow) check valve backwards?
> 
> Since you are in a 12-unit condo, any of the neighbors complaining of getting hot water instead of cold?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

My plumber just texted me. He wants to bring an inspector over to my building next week and wants to know what is a good day for this to happen.

I'm wondering whether the inspector will somehow give the plumber a clean bill of health, and allow him to leave the scene, and I'm left to deal with the water heater alone???


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm not sure who that inspector works for, local contractor or city inspector. If he is an official inspector I doubt he will hang his professional license on any false inspection. Just ask who he is and where he works. But nothing wrong with getting another pair of eyes in there. He will also end up sharing the responsibility if things still don't work. This isn't like you did the install where they can shift the blame over to you.

Bud


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Sorry not trying to bring you down but I must say. I don't like your plumber and I don't even know him. He should have replaced the bad leaking valve with the black handle when he replaced the water heater. He seems so concerned about getting an approval from the inspector. He's more worried about that than your problem. I wouldn't give him another dime. He sounds like the kind of guy that's going to blame your problems on the Building or the old systems. I would take all kinds of pictures save all receipts, and video anything you can even when he's there with the inspector. I would have another plumber come in to correct the problem and take the first guy to court to cover the other plumber 's expense. He should have been there after he returned from his trip or had a stand by Contractor in case of emergencies. A reputable Contractor just don't leave town without his customer's being cared for. Good luck. sorry for my rant but this is ridiculous. I actually feel bad for you.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I've exchanged a number of text messages with my plumber. To make a long story short, he's saying that he does not think it's the dip stick. But he will check it again. If it's not the dip stick then he's done. 

He says that I must have had the same problem with my old water heater but did not notice it because the old one operated under higher water temperature. He says: "You never noticed or never had the water on long enough because of the higher water temperature mixing with cold water."


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Did I hear "permit" before? If so there should/could be an inspection by your local code official.
Determine if a permit is required.
Determine if he pulled one, his license his responsibility, not yours.
If there is a permit, determine if there is a final inspection.
I a permit has not been pulled and is required talk to your building department about them enforcing the requirement and inspecting the work.

Since he is trying to push the responsibility back onto you you need to push back.

Bud


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Bud,

Now that you ask, I'm not sure whether he's actually pulled a permit yet. I actually had to check my text messages again. He simply asked me what day would be good next week for an inspection. Before he installed the water heater he never mentioned anything about an inspection.

Contractors working for me have pulled permits in the past. Isn't there supposed to be a "rough" inspection first or does it not apply with a water heater?



Bud9051 said:


> Did I hear "permit" before? If so there should/could be an inspection by your local code official.
> Determine if a permit is required.
> Determine if he pulled one, his license his responsibility, not yours.
> If there is a permit, determine if there is a final inspection.
> ...


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

stripedbass said:


> I've exchanged a number of text messages with my plumber. To make a long story short, he's saying that he does not think it's the dip stick. But he will check it again. If it's not the dip stick then he's done.
> 
> He says that I must have had the same problem with my old water heater but did not notice it because the old one operated under higher water temperature. He says: "You never noticed or never had the water on long enough because of the higher water temperature mixing with cold water."


Well... That could be a legitimate argument, but not if you turn your's up high.

I'm not sure of the exact temp, but I would think that all water heaters are governed at a max temp.... your manual might tell you....

I somewhat understand your plumbers position and argument, .... a WH install is pretty damn simple and basic.... if there is a dip tube... I do not see how he could have caused the problem....unless he changed out some plumbing before his flex hookup...which I think you said was not involved.

Now, I suppose a new water heater could have a manufacturing defect , like no dip tube, or a faulty temp sensor... but if you can rule those out as the supply water is plenty hot at first, i do not see what he could have done to cause the problem.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Mixing controls can be in many places, *here* is a link describing some. There can also be a whole house mixing system to prevent very hot water from being delivered anywhere. 

The part I can't describe is how a bad mixing valve in one location would cause all other locations to only get cold water. the pros will have to explain if and how that can happen.

Bud


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

MTN,

The only problem as I've stated before is that I never had my old heater at anywhere close to a high setting. In fact, I asked him to check the setting on my old heater. He said the knob broke off.

And in any case, by his logic then my new heater should work if I turn it to the highest setting. But it's on the highest setting and still does not do the job.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Well... That could be a legitimate argument, but not if you turn your's up high.
> 
> I'm not sure of the exact temp, but I would think that all water heaters are governed at a max temp.... your manual might tell you....
> 
> ...


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

COLDIRON said:


> Sorry not trying to bring you down but I must say. I don't like your plumber and I don't even know him. He should have replaced the bad leaking valve with the black handle when he replaced the water heater.



I think a cool head is called for here. I thought the plumber did replace the leaky valves - the OP never said valves were still leaking.




> He seems so concerned about getting an approval from the inspector. He's more worried about that than your problem. I wouldn't give him another dime.



When we hire pro's and they screw up, we're quick to chastise the lack of proper permits and inspections when the job goes south. I find it odd to equate the plumber's want for an inspection to some kind of underhanded chicanery. Since turning the supply to the water heater off and the OP still getting water flow from hot taps prove there is indeed a cross connect somewhere, it indicates the plumber's installation of a new WH is not solely to blame. 



> He sounds like the kind of guy that's going to blame your problems on the Building or the old systems. I would take all kinds of pictures save all receipts, and video anything you can even when he's there with the inspector.



If the plumber correctly installed the WH, the only thing the inspector can do is approve it. The cross-connect backflow problem manifesting itself now is not something the inspector could fail him for since he didn't do it. 





> I would have another plumber come in to correct the problem and take the first guy to court to cover the other plumber 's expense. He should have been there after he returned from his trip or had a stand by Contractor in case of emergencies. A reputable Contractor just don't leave town without his customer's being cared for. Good luck. sorry for my rant but this is ridiculous. I actually feel bad for you.



The possibility still exists that the dip tube is missing or faulty, AND there's a cross connect between the OPs hot plumbing and either the OP's cold or the neighbor's cold.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Bud,
> 
> Now that you ask, I'm not sure whether he's actually pulled a permit yet. I actually had to check my text messages again. He simply asked me what day would be good next week for an inspection. Before he installed the water heater he never mentioned anything about an inspection.
> 
> Contractors working for me have pulled permits in the past. Isn't there supposed to be a "rough" inspection first or does it not apply with a water heater?



When he says what day is good for an inspection, is he referring to an inspection from the building department, or an appointment to inspect your situation to determine what is going on that you're not getting any hot water? 



A building department inspection for a water heater would not have a rough and finish inspection.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Plumber said today that he's like 100% sure it's not the dip tube.

The only thing I can say is that I sometimes took really long showers and often did a lot of dishwashing (I don't have a dishwasher) with the old water heater. If it did not work well I would have replaced it ages ago and not kept it for 14 years. There's no way I would have tolerated cold water for that long.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The possibility still exists that the dip tube is missing or faulty, AND there's a cross connect between the OPs hot plumbing and either the OP's cold or the neighbor's cold.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I really like how many people are trying to help you however. Let's all step back to the beginning. You had an old water heater with a leaking valve. Everything worked just great until the heater was replaced. Now you have all these problems. Whatever the Plumber did caused your problem now. Regardless of any post or anything the Plumber says he caused it and went on vacation with the money you paid him. Now Run around and inspections and this and that. It's HIM. Dip tube, setting, previous plumbing, valves and other Condos don't matter. Q. Were you pressured into replacing the old water heater?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Coldiron,

My downstairs neighbor (the person on the second floor) happened to be in the basement doing something to his boiler. He noticed the leak on my water heater's shutoff. It wasn't a big leak. It was actually slow drops. Since my heater was quite old, and since we had had a pipe burst in the basement this past July, I decided to play it safe and replace the heater. 

I got the plumber's contact info because he left a sticker on my neighbor's water heater (he replaced the water heater for my first floor neighbor, some months ago). He also left a sticker on another water heater (for the second floor neighbor) that he did not work on.

When he came to replace my heater he told me that when he was replacing my neighbor's heater one of the condo trustees in my building happened to be in the basement (she was showing something to a contractor. It may have been the person who did some chimney work for us). The plumber told her that my water heater needed to be replaced. But I never got the message. 

Basically, I replaced the heater because of its shutoff leak (it was the old fashioned type, round). 

That is the honest answer to your question.

What really upsets me is that I never had my old water heater on high settings because the water was hot enough on the lower settings. But there's no way to prove this now since it's gone. I told the plumber to check the temperature knob on my old heater. He replied that it broke off. 



COLDIRON said:


> I really like how many people are trying to help you however. Let's all step back to the beginning. You had an old water heater with a leaking valve. Everything worked just great until the heater was replaced. Now you have all these problems. Whatever the Plumber did caused your problem now. Regardless of any post or anything the Plumber says he caused it and went on vacation with the money you paid him. Now Run around and inspections and this and that. It's HIM. Dip tube, setting, previous plumbing, valves and other Condos don't matter. Q. Were you pressured into replacing the old water heater?


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I went to the my town's building department this morning, to see whether I could get any advice from a plumbing inspector. Unfortunately, I was told that all the plumbing inspectors had already left to do inspections.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Guess you just have to read all the operator's instruction book regarding the black knob setting. If he didn't leave you one look up the model number on the net and you will find out all kinds of information on your heater. As others have said just crank the black knob (thermostat) to a higher setting. But that still doesn't answer the question as to why the water was coming out of the spigot when the inlet valve on the water heater was closed.. Still have a cross connection some where. You need a detective. Don't you have any friends or relatives that know anything about this to come over and help you?

PS Guess you'll just have to wait for MR. Plumber to come over with the inspector.


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## tribe_fan (May 18, 2006)

You could call the manufacturer - they may send someone out. Rheem sent one out for me, even though i installed it (purchased from Home Depot)


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

tribe_fan,

Never thought of calling the manufacturer. Thanks for the tip.



tribe_fan said:


> You could call the manufacturer - they may send someone out. Rheem sent one out for me, even though i installed it (purchased from Home Depot)


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Coldiron,

I have the manual and all the paper work. I just haven't gone through it. :smile:



COLDIRON said:


> Guess you just have to read all the operator's instruction book regarding the black knob setting. If he didn't leave you one look up the model number on the net and you will find out all kinds of information on your heater. As others have said just crank the black knob (thermostat) to a higher setting. But that still doesn't answer the question as to why the water was coming out of the spigot when the inlet valve on the water heater was closed.. Still have a cross connection some where. You need a detective. Don't you have any friends or relatives that know anything about this to come over and help you?
> 
> PS Guess you'll just have to wait for MR. Plumber to come over with the inspector.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Folks,

Just want you all to know that nothing has changed in my situation.

However, we're going to be having a plumbing inspector from my town come over and check things. We're just waiting to have the appointment scheduled.

I've had two conversations with one of the plumbing inspectors, yesterday and today (they have a time when you can drop by to ask questions, pay for permits, etc). One of the things he suggested to me today was to touch the cold water pipe to the water heater and see how it feels..

When I got home I decided to check. I took my shower today at around 8:00am. After speaking to the inspector, I got home at around 10:15am. I went to the basement and touched the cold water pipe. It was very hot! I then touched the hot water pipe. It was cold.

Then an idea struck me. I decided to go over to the other side of the basement and do the same test with the two water heaters owned by neighbors. Both heaters felt cold when I touched their cold pipes. And in terms of the hot pipe, one was slightly warm, the other was neither warm nor cold.

Does this mean anything?


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

I think the two pipes need to be switched on your new heater. If the cold water feed is coming in the Hot Exit from the heater, then all the cold water is entering at the top of the tank and not the bottom as it should via the dip tube.
This explains why the short amount of hot water.
Get that plumber back in to fix it for free.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Just want you all to know that nothing has changed in my situation.
> 
> ...


In post #2 you said just the opposite.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

rjniles, I have always respected your opinions and facts. I went back and checked the posts you mentioned. I think your on to something. I think it's time for stripedbass to hire another plumber or to get the installation plumbers ass over there to find and fix the problem and stop posting anymore theory's and goose chase's with us. It's very difficult to solve problems without being there and looking what was done and testing in person. there are so many stories coming from bass I am done replying to his comments. I will be watching and waiting for the final solution when he has hot water again and what was the problem and how it was corrected . COLDIRON out for good.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Bob22,

Thank you for your post.

However, at around 12:45pm I decided to do a of test the hot water pipe of my water heater and those of my 2 immediately adjacent neighbors:

Here are the results:

1) When I touch the Hot pipe of my water heater it is hot.

2) When I touch the Cold pipe of my water heater it is room temperature.

3) When I touch the Hot pipe of my second floor neighbor it is vaguely warm.

4) When I touch the Cold water pipe of my second floor neighbor water heater it is gently cold
.
5) When I touch the Hot water pipe of my first floor neighbor it is gently hot,

6) When I touch the Cold Water pipe of my water heater it is room temperature.



bob22 said:


> I think the two pipes need to be switched on your new heater. If the cold water feed is coming in the Hot Exit from the heater, then all the cold water is entering at the top of the tank and not the bottom as it should via the dip tube.
> This explains why the short amount of hot water.
> Get that plumber back in to fix it for free.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

This is like watching a puppy chase its tail..........


When the water heater was replaced if the plumber put the new on in the same way that the old one came out and did not change any of the other plumping or open a valve that was closed then there is only one reason.........


DIP TUBE!!!!


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

OP, You sure that temperature knob (pic on page 4) is *not* pointing at VAC (Vacation)?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Rocky,

Below is the temperature knob:



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> OP, You sure that temperature knob (pic on page 4) is *not* pointing at VAC (Vacation)?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Still waiting for the plumber to return.

In the meantime...

Today at 8:30am I touched the hot water pipe of my water heater. It was cold.

At 8:40am I took a shower.

At 1:00pm I went to the basement again and touched the hot water pipe. It was very hot.

I'm just trying to do some trouble-shooting with the hope that someone may notice something with the way my water heater is operating.

By the way, has anyone ever seen the device below. It's called a Backflow Preventer. It's on a pipe by one of the water boilers, and that pipe is connected to the pipe that goes to my hot water pipe on my water heater.



stripedbass said:


> Bob22,
> 
> Thank you for your post.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

tribe_fan,

I called the manufacturer today (AO Smith).

They said that labor is covered for 3 years. Also, they have a working relationship with various technicians. The closest one to me is 30 miles away. I could have him check the heater. However, if the problem is determined to be a plumbing issue, rather than the heater itself, then I have to pay for the labor, and maybe even the service call itself (even if no work is done).

You suggestion was good in that it has at least given me an option to consider.

Again, thanks.



tribe_fan said:


> You could call the manufacturer - they may send someone out. Rheem sent one out for me, even though i installed it (purchased from Home Depot)


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Show us more of the various pipes in the vicinity of the backflow preventer.

Your hot water line is not supposed to be connected to (space heating forced hot water) boilers that do not have tankless domestic water heating components inside.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

I'm not home right now. But below are two pictures that I took today. 

Just so that you get some orientation, the Backflow Preventer is a couple of inches below the yellow-colored shutoff.

The second photo shows a horizontal pipe (the longest one and in the background) running from left to right after an elbow. That pipe is heading to my water heater's hot pipe. That pipe is also connected to the same Backflow Preventer which is below and out of view.

I can supply more photos.



AllanJ said:


> Show us more of the various pipes in the vicinity of the backflow preventer.
> 
> Your hot water line is not supposed to be connected to (space heating forced hot water) boilers that do not have tankless domestic water heating components inside.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Must have enough hot water to take a shower or have learned to take really short showers.


Follow the incoming cold line and make sure that it goes to the cold of the heater . If the plumber simply exchanged old for new... then the challenge is the dip tube, just because it is new does not mean that it could not be the problem. 

Who knows how it was handled from Factory floor to your place... any where along the line some thing could have knocked the tube out of place.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Akpsdvan,

Yes, I've learned to take really fast showers! And most of the shower is with cold water or before it turns really cold.

Trust me, I followed the pipe and it does lead to the cold pipe of the water heater.

If the dip tube is the problem I would not be surprised at all. I say this because if I recall correctly, he brought the heater down these basement bulkhead steps (which are concrete) after he got it out of the box. I think when he brought it in it wasn't even on a dolly. And the angle of the entrance is really awkward. I even remember asking him something about it, and he said something like, "I've been doing this a long time," while panting. And from his tone, he didn't sound pleased, if you know what I mean.



Akpsdvan said:


> Must have enough hot water to take a shower or have learned to take really short showers.
> 
> 
> Follow the incoming cold line and make sure that it goes to the cold of the heater . If the plumber simply exchanged old for new... then the challenge is the dip tube, just because it is new does not mean that it could not be the problem.
> ...


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Find a way of challenging the payment......... that is if he does not show up with in the next 48 hours or by close of Friday. Enough is enough... the plumber needs to deal with this now... and if the credit card company gets in on it... Money talks.............


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## jtmell (May 28, 2014)

I have been watching this tread since the beginning. It is not the water heater, there is a cross over in the plumbing system. I can only guess because I am not there but perhaps the 2nd valve that was replaced should be in the off position. I wish I was there I find them often. again from what I read it is not the dip tube or water heater.
Regards


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

jtmell,

Which valve are you referring to? The one that controls the cold water to the heater? The one that controls the hot water? Or the one that is supposed to be the shut-off for my entire condo unit but only controls the cold water?

Please let me know.

Thanks.



jtmell said:


> I have been watching this tread since the beginning. It is not the water heater, there is a cross over in the plumbing system. I can only guess because I am not there but perhaps the 2nd valve that was replaced should be in the off position. I wish I was there I find them often. again from what I read it is not the dip tube or water heater.
> Regards


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Still waiting for the plumber to return.
> 
> In the meantime...
> 
> Today at 8:30am I touched the hot water pipe of my water heater. It was cold.


It should be at least luke warm. A water heater full of hot water would naturally through convection and conduction, heat the pipes above it even without having run the hot water.


> At 8:40am I took a shower.


And yet your shower wasn't hot, was it?


> At 1:00pm I went to the basement again and touched the hot water pipe. It was very hot.


From what? Did you just run hot water?


> I'm just trying to do some trouble-shooting with the hope that someone may notice something with the way my water heater is operating.
> 
> By the way, has anyone ever seen the device below. It's called a Backflow Preventer. It's on a pipe by one of the water boilers, and that pipe is connected to the pipe that goes to my hot water pipe on my water heater.


No way no how should the hot water pipe from your water heater be connected to another unit's boiler. since you're on the 3rd floor, the hot water pipe should, after hitting a valve, make a bee-line directly up to your unit without branching off to anything else.


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## jtmell (May 28, 2014)

Which valve are you referring to? The one that controls the cold water to the heater? The one that controls the hot water? Or the one that is supposed to be the shut-off for my entire condo unit but only controls the cold water?

quote
The only plumbing change that was made was the installation of a new shutoff to the water heater (in addition to replacing the one right above the water heater). We had to do this because the shutoff right above the heater did not shut off the hot water. It only shut off the cold water). This is why we had to shut off the building's main shutoff. But now with this secondary shutoff I do not have to shutoff the building's main shutoff. I'm attaching two photos below. I don't know whether they'll be clear enough for you to see. I think I'll have to take better photos of the shutoffs and post them.

I can't see theses shutoffs or totally understand your explanation of them but are you sure they do what you say they do ?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Now you say that there is a horizontal pipe teed into the hot pipe coming from the water heater.

I suppose that the hot pipe goes up into the ceiling in which case we don't need to say anything more about it.

But the horizontal pipe needs to be investigated. Turn on the hot water upstairs and when it becomes cold turn it down to a medium flow. Now go downstairs and feel the hot pipe at the water heater and also all three pipes going into the tee. Which ones are hot, warm, cold?

Also describe where the horizontal pipe goes and what places, possibly plural, that pipe goes if there are more branches.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Yes, the valves do what I've described.

And yes, the only new thing that was added with the water heater was the valve that controls the hot water that comes from the heater. The plumber said that he needed to install it so that he could work on installing my water heater.

Does this make sense?



jtmell said:


> Which valve are you referring to? The one that controls the cold water to the heater? The one that controls the hot water? Or the one that is supposed to be the shut-off for my entire condo unit but only controls the cold water?
> 
> quote
> The only plumbing change that was made was the installation of a new shutoff to the water heater (in addition to replacing the one right above the water heater). We had to do this because the shutoff right above the heater did not shut off the hot water. It only shut off the cold water). This is why we had to shut off the building's main shutoff. But now with this secondary shutoff I do not have to shutoff the building's main shutoff. I'm attaching two photos below. I don't know whether they'll be clear enough for you to see. I think I'll have to take better photos of the shutoffs and post them.
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Sorry, let me correct something. The long horizontal pipe does not go into the boiler. It comes from the boiler and goes into the water heater via the heater's cold pipe. 

The pipe leaving my heater's hot pipe goes to my condo unit. But if I'm not mistaken it also goes to the two water heaters owned by my neighbors (located on the other side of the basement). I'll confirm this tomorrow. It's too dark in the basement right now. I'll also check the hotness (or lack of) of the different pipes. But if I recall correctly, the horizontal pipe was warm this morning (or part of it). But I'll try to confirm this tomorrow.

Thanks.



AllanJ said:


> Now you say that there is a horizontal pipe teed into the hot pipe coming from the water heater.
> 
> I suppose that the hot pipe goes up into the ceiling in which case we don't need to say anything more about it.
> 
> ...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Describe everything visible that the hot pipe out of your water heater goes to or connects to.

More pictures would help.

For now, the end that goes into the ceiling needs no further description.

If there seems to be a little detail you are not sure of, include it. Too much information here is better than not enough.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

RockyMtBeerMan said:


> Any check valve? (as in, a valve that prevents back flow) check valve backwards?
> 
> Since you are in a 12-unit condo, any of the neighbors complaining of getting hot water instead of cold?


A backflow preventer is another name for a check valve. Yours looks ancient and I'm thinking it's probably stuck open with mineral deposits.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi folks,

I've put together some photos of my plumbing. To make things a bit clear, I've placed a white sticky on the pipe I want you to see since there are many pipes in my condo building's basement.

This post is of a group of photos of the cold water pipe that goes to the cold water pipe of my water heater.

1) Start-off point at my neighbor's boiler:










2) Right before it turns up:










3) Right below Backflow Preventer:










4) It makes several turns then heads rightward along long pipe in the background (no sticky on the pipe):










5) Another view of the long pipe (same pipe that I mentioned in an earlier post):










6) Pipe enters my water heater's cold pipe:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

This second post is of the cold water pipe moving in the opposite (leftward) direction and eventually ends at my neighbors' cold water pipes of their water heaters.

1) Above Backflow Preventer (pipe is hot but not very, very hot):










2) Turns into the storage cages (yes, the pipe goes along the ceiling of 2 storage cages):










3) Comes out of the other end of the storage cages (pipe is warm):










4) Heads toward my neighbors' water heaters (it's neither warm nor cold):










5) One pipe goes to one water heater, the other elbow (partially hidden by yet another pipe) goes to the other heater:










6) Pipes enter cold water pipes of my neighbors' water heaters:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

This third post is of just one photo. The pipe below is included in my previous post but the photo is from a different angle. 

This is the pipe that comes from the boiler and goes to my neighbors' cold water pipes on their water heaters.

The photo shows where it comes out of the storage cages while heading to the heaters. 

I thought to make special mention of this point along the route because I remembered something that happened this past July. The pipe burst where the sticky is on. 

What was interesting is that before we got a plumber to rush over and fix it I lost hot water. In fact, it's because I did not have hot water (I had just come from the gym) that made me go the basement to check my water heater. 


When I got to the basement, to my shock, I discovered all this water gushing like mad. But my neighbor downstairs did not lose hot water (I don't know about the neighbor on the first floor but I think she too did not lose hot water). I did not lose cold water. I just wonder why my neighbor did not lose hot water. As soon as the pipe was fixed, I got hot water.

Getting back to the photo, the elbow to the right (heading toward the camera) is going to my neighbors' water heaters. The elbow behind the sticky connects with the pipe coming from the boiler. The elbow to the left of the sticky comes from the adjacent basement (so I presume it's coming from the main because that's where it is).

Anyway, I just thought to mention this in case it means anything in terms of the pipe crossing issue (if it's the actual problem):


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Rocky,

I haven't asked any of my neighbors yet. I wanted to first get some basics down before I started asking around. We already had a pipe burst in the summer which was not amusing, if you know what I mean. But I'll definitely ask around.

In terms of the Backflow Preventer I had googled and found this:

*2) All pipes out - if you have a constant hot water circulation pump that cirulates the hot water so it is always hot at the faucets, failure of the pump can, with some types of pumps and backflow preventer setups, cause near or total flow failure in the hot water system. Usually not total blockage, though. Of course, if you have separate pumps on different branches (very rare), would affect only that branch.* (Found the passage from this link: http://answers.angieslist.com/No-ho...sure-valve-water-hot-supposed-be-q141538.aspx)

But I don't know if the above applies to me since I don't think I have a hot water circulation pump.

In any case, what I also don't understand (since I'm not a plumber) is why would the Backflow Preventer affect my hot water since its pipe goes to the cold pipe of my water heater?

Anyway, thanks for your feedback.



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> A backflow preventer is another name for a check valve. Yours looks ancient and I'm thinking it's probably stuck open with mineral deposits.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Pipes connected to the cold water inlet of your water heater and not to any portion of the hot water network are not relevant to this discussion.

What, if anything, is seen connected to the hot pipe between where it exits from the water heater and where it disappears into the ceiling?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

When the hot water pipe leaves my basement it does not go to the ceiling directly. Rather, it goes to the next basement. That's the basement that has the main for the whole building, and the hot water heater of the neighbor with whom I share the shutoff to my condo unit (she's on the 3rd floor of her condo vertical column, I'm on the 3rd floor of my condo vertical column. And we're next door to each other on the 3rd floor, horizontally). 

In other words, when she shuts off her shutoff to her condo unit, it shuts off the water to my unit and vice versa. To get to this basement I need to request a key from the condo trustees.

The only qualification I need to make is that the shutoff to my condo only shuts off my cold water and not the hot.

I don't know whether her condo unit shutoff only shuts off her cold water. I'd need to ask her.



AllanJ said:


> Pipes connected to the cold water inlet of your water heater and not to any portion of the hot water network are not relevant to this discussion.
> 
> What, if anything, is seen connected to the hot pipe between where it exits from the water heater and where it disappears into the ceiling?


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

First of all, the plumber you engaged to replace the water heater should have been back a long time ago to figure out what is going on.


> The only qualification I need to make is that the shutoff to my condo only shuts off my cold water and not the hot.


That does not sound correct. Your cold water shut off valve should turn of the water to your water heater. The hot water pipe out of your water heater should be connected to your unit only.
Do you get a water bill? Do you get a gas bill?


If the hot water pipe out of your water heater connects to anything other than your unit then the water heater you replaced did not belong to you. It belonged to the condominium association and if it need to be replaced it should have been done by the association.


All that you have said makes me believe that the water heater you replaced was association property.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

once things get sorted out, you might want to put some insulation those pipes.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi hkstroud,

The water bill is paid by the condo association.

The gas bill is paid by me. Everyone in the condo building has their own gas meter and bill.

The water shutoff not working is a problem that preceded my getting the new water heater.



hkstroud said:


> First of all, the plumber you engaged to replace the water heater should have been back a long time ago to figure out what is going on.
> 
> That does not sound correct. Your cold water shut off valve should turn of the water to your water heater. The hot water pipe out of your water heater should be connected to your unit only.
> Do you get a water bill? Do you get a gas bill?
> ...


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The plumber's position is that he's only responsible if the dip tube is broken. Anything else is on me. It does not matter if my old water heater worked. According to him it worked only because it operated under a "higher temperature." He claims the problem is due to pipes being crossed so this frees him from having to do anything else, unless I want to pay for it.

For my part, I'm simply trying to understand as much as possible before I decide on my next move.

The help I've gotten here has been much appreciated. I've learned a lot! I realize that there's only so much you folks can do from simply looking at photos. :smile:

I would never hold anyone on this forum responsible if they made a mistake while trying to help me. I'm just "trouble shooting" in a mental sense. Any actual work will of course be done by a plumber and not me. :smile:



hkstroud said:


> First of all, the plumber you engaged to replace the water heater should have been back a long time ago to figure out what is going on.


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

> According to him it worked only because it operated under a "higher temperature."


That sounds like BS.
If pipes are crossed then pipes must belong to the association. Sounds like you should be talking to someone in the association or the association's plumber.


If your hot water pipe serves any other unit you are paying for someone else's hot water.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Hi Allan,
> 
> When the hot water pipe leaves my basement it does not go to the ceiling directly. Rather, it goes to the next basement. That's the basement that has the main for the whole building, and the hot water heater of the neighbor with whom I share the shutoff to my condo unit (she's on the 3rd floor of her condo vertical column, I'm on the 3rd floor of my condo vertical column. And we're next door to each other on the 3rd floor, horizontally).
> 
> In other words, when she shuts off her shutoff to her condo unit, it shuts off the water to my unit and vice versa. To get to this basement I need to request a key from the condo trustees.



If your water heater's hot output goes to the next basement before it goes to your 3rd floor unit, perhaps that is where it is cross-connected.



> The only qualification I need to make is that the shutoff to my condo only shuts off my cold water and not the hot.



No, it shuts off _your_hot as well, since you've stated and mapped out the pipes, but due to the cross-connect your hot water supply line is also being back-fed from another cold water source. 



> I don't know whether her condo unit shutoff only shuts off her cold water. I'd need to ask her.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

I really appreciate the clarification you made regarding the shutoff for my entire condo unit. I thought it was only shutting off the cold water. This is the kind of thing I would not know. I'm actually now quite curious as to how my hot water piping looks like from the adjacent basement (before it goes up through the ceiling). But like I said, I need to get a key from one of our condo trustees to enter that basement.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, it shuts off _your_hot as well, since you've stated and mapped out the pipes, but due to the cross-connect your hot water supply line is also being back-fed from another cold water source.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

After you turn on the hot water in your apartment and the water goes cold, quickly go down and feel the hot pipe from your water heater in several places going most of the way to where it disappears into the next basement. Make a note of that but do not draw more conclusions yet.

Arrange to go into the next basement and make a note of and preferably make a diagram of what is seen connected to your hot water pipe between where it came in and where it disappears into the ceiling there.

For the time being, turn off one of the valves above your water heater during the day when you are out and also overnight.

Semi-OT but still worth doing while you are at it. Trace the gas line from your water heater back to the meter and make a note of what other gas pipes branch off of it. Draw a diagram.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> After you turn on the hot water in your apartment and the water goes cold, quickly go down and feel the hot pipe from your water heater in several places going most of the way to where it disappears into the next basement. Make a note of that but do not draw more conclusions yet.



The problem with diagnosing this is that the clues are skewed when 2 separate issues are present. 



With a broken or missing dip tube, the pipe could still feel hot- It really depends on how much cold water is mixing in at the location of the cross-connect. 





> Arrange to go into the next basement and make a note of and preferably make a diagram of what is seen connected to your hot water pipe between where it came in and where it disappears into the ceiling there.
> 
> For the time being, turn off one of the valves above your water heater during the day when you are out and also overnight.
> 
> Semi-OT but still worth doing while you are at it. Trace the gas line from your water heater back to the meter and make a note of what other gas pipes branch off of it. Draw a diagram.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

Sorry to seem so dumb but do you mean turn off the valve going into the cold water pipe or the one coming out of the hot water pipe or does it not matter which one?

If I turn one of them off overnight, then what do I do the next morning? Do I need to check anything?



AllanJ said:


> For the time being, turn off one of the valves above your water heater during the day when you are out and also overnight.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Turning off the hot water overnight or for any period of several hours you do not need it, either valve will do. The purpose is to possibly make a neighbor take notice if s/he were indeed drawing hot water from your heater.

Turn it back on in the morning or whenever you need hot water.

If the problem was caused only by a bad dip tube then the hot pipe exiting your water heater is going to be cold two feet away and is not going to warm up in the short time it takes for you to walk downstairs and feel it.

Repeat the following test:

Do you now have a submaster shutoff that cuts off all the cold water to your apartment but not the neighbors below or in the next building? If so turn it off.

Turn off one of the valves above your water heater.

If your hot faucets are still alive (delivering water either hot or cold) then you have proved there is a cross connection with a neighbor somewhere.

The cross connection could possibly have been done accidentally with a neighbor's plumbing repair coincidentally done around the same time your new water heater was installed. At any rate it needs to be found and fixed.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Double check your condo documents. It is possible that some of the relevant pipes in the basement are common property and the condo. management is responsible for arranging payment without billing you and with reimbursing you for repairs you made down there.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Thanks but I already knew about the common area pipes. For instance, when we had shutoffs installed for all the units in the building (not to be confused with water heater shutoffs), that was considered common area work and it was billed to the condo association. 

I'm just not yet sure where the crossed pipes will be found (if this is indeed the problem) and whether it will be in an area considered common area or not. But thanks for trying to help.



AllanJ said:


> Double check your condo documents. It is possible that some of the relevant pipes in the basement are common property and the condo. management is responsible for arranging payment without billing you and with reimbursing you for repairs you made down there.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The latest: Yesterday I reminded the plumber that nothing has changed regarding the water heater. He said he'll come over to check on things. 

He also said he would like to see the plumbing in the condo unit owned by the neighbor with whom I share plumbing. After I contacted her she told me the only free time she has is Wednesday morning at 8:00. But that is a tricky time since the plumber told me that he may need to shut off the building's main shutoff. At 8:00 most people are getting ready to go to work. 

So I'm waiting for my neighbor to give me an alternate time. It looks like it will have to be next week because this week is really busy for her. 

In the meantime, what do you think my plumber will be checking in my neighbor's unit that could be a possible cause of my problem? Just curious. Her washing machine, faucets, etc?


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

When I installed the plumbing in my parents' log home 45 years ago - 8-o - i hooked up the hot water line to the toilet (which made the seat nice and warm) so mistakes like that do happen, so, if anything, go easy on whoever dorked it up.

me, since cold is obviously being mixed with your hot (or your hot is being sent elsewhere) and others are experiencing the same problem, i say your hot water line is connected to a common cold line like next door or further down the line. you get the hot water in the lines/at top of tank at first, then the common cold line overwhelms it.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Is the condominium management willing to assist, specifically to expedite things such as expect the neighbor to hand over the key to her basement or to be there when you desire?

Are there any water pipes that disappear up into your basement ceiling? Or do all of the water supply pipes go (horizontally) into the same neighbor's basement to go vertically up a central common channel (chase; raceway) there?

Now a somewhat off topic quiz question for you. Your hot pipe (from your water heater) springs a leak at a point in your neighbor's basement two feet from the wall between the basements. Who pays for the repair? Bonus question: Who pays for the water damage to personal property stored in the basement, say, under the leak?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

I will answer all the questions from you and others that I've not gotten to. 

But I first want to ask something that occurred to me today. If crossed pipes is my problem, would it affect my toilet's performance like the strength of the flush? What about the water temperature in the tank?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

If you are getting warm water in the toilet tank, you have more issues. Is someone doing plumbing in the other basement that your pipes run through?

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Crossed pipes or warm water are not responsible for toilet flushing issues. What counts is how much water is in the toilet tank and in the bowl and whether the channels going down to the toilet bowl including all the way around the rim are clogged.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The water in the toilet tank is not hot, just slightly colder than room temperature. Just wondering why it's not very cold since it's next to the shower which gets very cold when the hot water runs out.

No other plumbing work being done.



rjniles said:


> If you are getting warm water in the toilet tank, you have more issues. Is someone doing plumbing in the other basement that your pipes run through?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## jtmell (May 28, 2014)

If the water in the toilet tank is warmer than the rest of the cold water in the house you could have a toilet tempering valve, they come with integral
check valves . If the check valves fail you have your crossover, If you find where this device is close the hot water feed to the toilet tempering valve,, if it has one.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

This has to be the longest thread on this board.
Please have an ending soon; I'm running out of monitor ink.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I finally took some photos of the hot water pipe in the adjacent basement, after I got the key to the basement from one of our condo trustees, and was going to post them. But now I'm wondering whether my thread is too long (especially after bob22's post). I'm not the kind that likes to hog attention.

In any case, the plumber is supposed to drop by this coming Tuesday.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

I am still going with the dip tube.
Some thing that could have been check early on to insure that it is or is not in place.
I have seen longer postings... Bob's line is really funny if one thinks about monitor ink, just what is monitor ink?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Okay, I'm going to post the hot pipe photos. Like last time I posted photos, I'm attaching white stickies so that you can easily note the pipe I'm showing:

1) This is were the hot pipe enters the adjacent basement from my basement:










2) Hot water pipe goes up the ceiling to my condo unit on the 3rd floor (and maybe to the unit of the neighbor on the 3rd floor who shares plumbing with me):










3) This is the same hot pipe starting to go to my neighbor's water heater:










4) Same hot water pipe makes a turn, heading to my neighbor's water heater:










5) Hot water pipe enters my neighbor's water heater:










6) The other part of the hot water pipe goes to yet another basement:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Now I want to post photos of what I consider a "mystery" pipe. 

1) Cold water pipes from my basement's water heaters and boilers and the cold water pipes from my neighbors' water heaters and boilers in the adjacent basement link up with this pipe (but I've not included photos of the linkage points of those pipes). This pipe has one end in a storage cage in my neighbor's adjacent basement. See below:










2) So starting at the end point it comes out of the cage here:










3) Then it continues on its way:










4) It continues:










5) It makes a turn then ends at the Main shutoff for the whole building:


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Now I want to post photos of what I consider a "mystery" pipe.
> 
> 1) Cold water pipes from my basement's water heaters and boilers and the cold water pipes from my neighbors' water heaters and boilers in the adjacent basement link up with this pipe (but I've not included photos of the linkage points of those pipes). This pipe has one end in a storage cage in my neighbor's adjacent basement. See below:
> 
> ...



Why is this pipe a mystery? You would expect to see a main cold water pipe to supply every boiler, water heater, and apartment unit in the building.


The only "mystery pipe" is the hot water pipe FROM your water heater that crosses to the next basement and connects to ANYTHING other than the riser pipe to your apartment. 



Now you're saying your hot water pipe connects to your neighbor's water heater AND crosses into yet another basement. This makes no sense. Hopefully your plumber can sort this out, I strongly you get access to all the basements when the plumber comes so no stone will be left unturned.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

What I quickly discovered, as I was taking the photos I presented in my previous posts yesterday, was that they would be a rough draft, just to give the basic layout. 

I knew I would have to go back to fill in the gaps because following these pipes is not easy, especially if one is not a plumber. Keep in mind I have to use a flashlight because the basement is quite dark, and the few light bulbs don't really do justice. I'm also trying to take notes as I go along.

Just to be sure: I'm looking to see what (if anything) is connected to the hot pipe, right? 

What if I discover that the cold pipe is somehow connected to the cold pipe, would this be what we mean by "crossed pipes?"



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why is this pipe a mystery? You would expect to see a main cold water pipe to supply every boiler, water heater, and apartment unit in the building.
> 
> 
> The only "mystery pipe" is the hot water pipe FROM your water heater that crosses to the next basement and connects to ANYTHING other than the riser pipe to your apartment.
> ...


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

I think a drawing, like a map, would be easier to follow than sequential photos. You could then show all the various tributaries etc and indicate which are cold and hot.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi bob22,

How's your monitor ink holding up as a result of my endless thread? :smile:

My problem is that my computer/graphics skills are zilch. I have no idea how I could post a drawing here.

But with hindsight, a drawing would have been more helpful than photos. I agree with you.



bob22 said:


> I think a drawing, like a map, would be easier to follow than sequential photos. You could then show all the various tributaries etc and indicate which are cold and hot.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> What I quickly discovered, as I was taking the photos I presented in my previous posts yesterday, was that they would be a rough draft, just to give the basic layout.
> 
> I knew I would have to go back to fill in the gaps because following these pipes is not easy, especially if one is not a plumber. Keep in mind I have to use a flashlight because the basement is quite dark, and the few light bulbs don't really do justice. I'm also trying to take notes as I go along.



It's not like being there. Your plumber knows there is a cross-connection it's only a matter of finding it. That requires access to anywhere it could be.


> Just to be sure: I'm looking to see what (if anything) is connected to the hot pipe, right?



Right, the hot pipe from your water heater. 





> What if I discover that the cold pipe is somehow connected to the cold pipe, would this be what we mean by "crossed pipes?"



No. The "crossed pipes" or "cross connection" referred to here is the source of your cold water coming from your hot water taps preventing you from getting hot water from your hot water heater. Its a connection between your hot water supply line and some cold water supply line. 



A cold pipe, especially in a basement filled with boilers, water heaters, apartment risers, will branch off many many times. Makes sense, you gotta get the cold water to everything. 



But once your gas (which you pay for for your use) water heater heats YOUR water, it should go only to your apartment and not branch off to other basements, apartments, or other water heaters. 



As I said, be sure to secure access to all the basements for your plumber to access.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi LawnGuy,

In a previous post I stated:

*What if I discover that the cold pipe is somehow connected to the cold pipe, would this be what we mean by "crossed pipes?"*

I meant to state:

*What if I discover that the cold pipe is somehow connected to the HOT pipe, would this be what we mean by "crossed pipes?"*

Does this change your answer?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> It's not like being there. Your plumber knows there is a cross-connection it's only a matter of finding it. That requires access to anywhere it could be.
> 
> Right, the hot pipe from your water heater.
> 
> ...


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Hi LawnGuy,
> 
> In a previous post I stated:
> 
> ...



No. We've already established that there is a cross connect. You turn your water heater hot or cold supply valve off, yet you still get water from your hot taps. 



If you found a cold water pipe connected to your hot water pipe, that would be a cross connect.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

stripedbass said:


> Hi bob22,
> 
> How's your monitor ink holding up as a result of my endless thread? :smile:
> 
> ...


Draw it on paper and take a picture of it with your cell phone or camera.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

stripedbass said:


> Hi bob22,
> 
> How's your monitor ink holding up as a result of my endless thread? :smile:
> 
> ...


Ink is holding up fine!
Draw it on paper and take a picture of it with your cell phone or camera.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

This is sounding more and more like a Socialist's idea of hot water heating: take it from everyone else.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Bob22,

I never thought of this. I mean it never occurred to me that I could draw something then take a photo of it. Thanks for that tip.

On a less upbeat note, I reminded the plumber yesterday of our appointment today and advised him that if there was a problem he should let me know. He replied that he would try to be at my place. However, he did not show up at 2:30pm, as we had agreed. At 3:00 I texted him. He replied that he was too busy handling "no heat and split pipes." Meanwhile, I had already sent an email to everyone in the building, giving them a heads-up that the water Main might be shut off for a short while, in order for the plumber to do a test.

Right now, in all honesty, I'm sort of out of it and just want to chill for a while.



bob22 said:


> Draw it on paper and take a picture of it with your cell phone or camera.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

This started happening after he put the new water heater in, right? Or did it coincide with another plumber's work?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Rocky,

It was *after he* put the new heater in. Even if we have a crossed pipe, as he claims, the old heater worked with the crossed pipe. And he has not bothered to actually check the dip tube. At least if he could confirm that it's not the dip tube, we could cross that item off the list.

I bought my condo in 2004. The heater came with the condo. I never changed it because it did its job. My home inspector, when I bought the condo, told me that they don't make those kinds of heaters any more. They were meant to last. 

I only changed it because its shutoff (the old fashioned kind, round in shape, began to leak). Now when I look back, I should never have changed the heater. I should have just changed the shutoff. But hindsight is cheap, they say.



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> This started happening after he put the new water heater in, right? Or did it coincide with another plumber's work?


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Wondering if it might be feasible to put in an electric on-demand one inside the condo and bypass all that mess and headache.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Rocky,
> 
> It was *after he* put the new heater in. Even if we have a crossed pipe, as he claims, the old heater worked with the crossed pipe. And he has not bothered to actually check the dip tube. At least if he could confirm that it's not the dip tube, we could cross that item off the list.
> 
> ...



Hindsight is 20/20, but I wouldn't 2nd guess the decision to change out a relic appliance proactively under the circumstances. Changing the heater revealed a hidden issue you were unaware of.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

RockyMtBeerMan said:


> Wondering if it might be feasible to put in an electric on-demand one inside the condo and bypass all that mess and headache.



This still won't correct the problem of an as-yet=to=be-located cross-connection between the hot water piping and the somebody's cold water piping.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I do not like how I've been treated as a customer. I don't like it that the plumber has given me the round around when it comes to the dip tube. 

As unlikely as it may seem, what if the problem is the crossed pipes AND the dip tube? How does the plumber and I cross out the dip tube issue? I feel helpless when it comes to the dip tube. 

Is my only choice to find the crossed pipes or nothing? If so, why did an older water heater not have this problem? Also, given what I've been through with him, I really do not feel comfortable assigning him to look for the crossed pipes. I feel that he would do it in a way that will completely exonerate him of any responsibility that he may truly have on his end. Also, what if we found and fixed the crossed pipes and the water heater still did not work? How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?

*I'm considering whether a small claims court can help in my situation in any way. Or is there another way forward?*

Having already paid him in good faith, I have no leverage over him. He can simply claim that he's busy or that there's nothing more he can do. Am I at his mercy and have totally no options? This is actually scary from a consumer point of view.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

How many ways has been suggested you can determine if the dip tube is at fault? How many of those ways have you followed to determine that?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

For most of you on this forum, all this water heater stuff may be easy to do or understand. Unfortunately, this is not the case with me. While I'm highly appreciative of the feedback I've gotten on this forum (which has truly been amazing), I really think that the plumber should do this trouble-shooting himself. If I tamper with the heater I could do something that gives him an excuse to void any warranty I have.

More than a month after he installed the heater he has not done anything in front of me to rule out the possibility that the dip tube is part of the problem. This works well for his interests because it totally clears him of any responsibility. I do not dismiss the crossed pipes aspect to all this. It obviously needs to be checked. But is it enough to simply say that he does not think it's the dip tube? What is the harm in showing me that the tube is fine? I don't care how good a plumber he is. A smart businessman providing a service or product should be able to politely explain to a customer why that customer's concern is not valid. This is not too much to ask!

Even granting the crossed pipes problem, there was something the old heater was doing that the new heater is not. One thing I know for sure is that what he told me about the setting of the heater was definitely wrong or a deliberate lie: He said that I had the old heater on a very high setting. This was the first real sign to me that gave me a really uneasy feeling about this plumber.

I don't like to accuse people of lying when I'm not sure but the way this plumber has treated me leaves me no choice. I know for a fact that I never had the heater on high. I'm a very economical guy and I hate wasting anything. But he took the heater so how can I prove this? This point really upsets me.



SeniorSitizen said:


> How many ways has been suggested you can determine if the dip tube is at fault? How many of those ways have you followed to determine that?


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> I do not like how I've been treated as a customer. I don't like it that the plumber has given me the round around when it comes to the dip tube.
> 
> As unlikely as it may seem, what if the problem is the crossed pipes AND the dip tube? How does the plumber and I cross out the dip tube issue? I feel helpless when it comes to the dip tube.



The plumber supplied and installed a water heater, and you're not getting hot water. The plumber has to be afforded the opportunity to determine what the cause(s) are. Even with crossed pipes, he will be able to determine that hot water is not getting from the heater to your unit.



> Is my only choice to find the crossed pipes or nothing? If so, why did an older water heater not have this problem? Also, given what I've been through with him, I really do not feel comfortable assigning him to look for the crossed pipes. I feel that he would do it in a way that will completely exonerate him of any responsibility that he may truly have on his end.


If the dip tube is faulty, it won't exonerate him from at least correcting that problem. At that point, even with the crossed pipe, you should at least be back to the situation you had before he did any work - you got hot water with some cold mixed in from the offending crossed pipe. 





> Also, what if we found and fixed the crossed pipes and the water heater still did not work? How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?


Do you seriously think the plumber changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems?


> *I'm considering whether a small claims court can help in my situation in any way. Or is there another way forward?*
> 
> Having already paid him in good faith, I have no leverage over him. He can simply claim that he's busy or that there's nothing more he can do. Am I at his mercy and have totally no options? This is actually scary from a consumer point of view.


From what I understand, the plumber hasn't been back since the initial install. I'm no lawyer, but you're going to have to at least afford him the opportunity to scope out the problem and take corrective action first.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi LawnGuy,

I have no problem with the plumber trying to determine what the problem is. This is in many ways my major gripe. *A big problem with this plumber is that he has not accorded me the basic respect you give to a customer who has paid you the entire bill of $1650.00 upfront without even testing the product*. By respect I mean assuring me that he has done everything that he was supposed to do. A good start is to simply show up! 

I have never felt that a faulty dip tube will exonerate the plumber from correcting it. Why would I? *But even if I got back to where I was before with my old water heater, it would at least be a vast improvement over what I have at the moment.* 

I would still like to correct the crossed pipes problem. But to me this would be a more transparent or honest position to be in. For instance, I could be able to more confidently approach our condo association and explain to them that I have done everything that I'm responsible for on my end (the plumber has checked everything and so on). And, assuming the crossed pipes, are in a common area, the rest would be up to the condo association.

I am not alleging, as you state (or ask me), that the plumber "changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems." *But I mentioned the small claims court because I simply feel that my situation cries out for an independent judge of some kind.*

Who is stopping the plumber from determining what the problem is? Not me! First it was his vacation in Maine that was the barrier. Now it's that he's very busy. 

What do I do in the meantime? I've actually been quite patient, if you ask me.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The plumber supplied and installed a water heater, and you're not getting hot water. The plumber has to be afforded the opportunity to determine what the cause(s) are. Even with crossed pipes, he will be able to determine that hot water is not getting from the heater to your unit.
> 
> If the dip tube is faulty, it won't exonerate him from at least correcting that problem. At that point, even with the crossed pipe, you should at least be back to the situation you had before he did any work - you got hot water with some cold mixed in from the offending crossed pipe.
> 
> ...


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi Striped, sorry I said I was out but I guess I am as frustrated as you. i'm back but kind of just following along . You have had many experts and amateurs explain what it could be. The dip tube check has been mentioned many times. Including how do it. It's a simple test that you can do . Just relax , go back, look up the dip tube test from the replies and take your time and just do it. The plumber won't even know you did it. Then when he comes just keep quite and watch him . You will already know the answer to the dip tube question. the most important thing is just chill and do it. Other than that it's a wait and see . I personally don't trust the plumber but you have to give him the opportunity to fix the problem. Just make sure you keep all information and dates just in case. Time is of the essence.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> SeniorSitizen,
> 
> If I tamper with the heater I could do something that gives him an excuse to void any warranty I have.



Turning valves, opening the cleanout drain, drawing water from the bottom, are not warranty-voiding procedures. It's ridiculous you would think so. They're your valves, your pipes, your water heater. 





> More than a month after he installed the heater he has not done anything in front of me to rule out the possibility that the dip tube is part of the problem. This works well for his interests because it totally clears him of any responsibility. I do not dismiss the crossed pipes aspect to all this. It obviously needs to be checked. But is it enough to simply say that he does not think it's the dip tube? What is the harm in showing me that the tube is fine? I don't care how good a plumber he is. A smart businessman providing a service or product should be able to politely explain to a customer why that customer's concern is not valid. This is not too much to ask!


He's fixated on the cross-connect problem being the entire cause. Especially because he's been totally aware of it from the beginning. If there were no dip tube problem, and your heater was heating to at least the same temperature as your old heater did, your hot tap should at least provide a 50/50 mix of hot and cold.


A couple weeks ago he was going to come by with an inspector - Apparently it never happened, and you had suspicions he was going to get an approval to absolve himself and leave you holding the bag.


Your paranoia is the reason you've gone over a month with no hot water. 







> Even granting the crossed pipes problem, there was something the old heater was doing that the new heater is not. One thing I know for sure is that what he told me about the setting of the heater was definitely wrong or a deliberate lie: He said that I had the old heater on a very high setting. This was the first real sign to me that gave me a really uneasy feeling about this plumber.
> 
> I don't like to accuse people of lying when I'm not sure but the way this plumber has treated me leaves me no choice. I know for a fact that I never had the heater on high. I'm a very economical guy and I hate wasting anything. But he took the heater so how can I prove this? This point really upsets me.


You don't realize the temperature control on your old heater at "medium" is a totally different temperature than on a new heater at "medium." Possession of the old heater wouldn't prove anything. You're fixating on a non-issue that has nothing to do with the problem at hand. 



I recommend you make another appointment (preferably not during a below-zero cold snap) to get the issue resolved sans your underlying suspicion that all this plumber wants to do is rip you off.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> Hi LawnGuy,
> 
> I have no problem with the plumber trying to determine what the problem is. This is in many ways my major gripe. *A big problem with this plumber is that he has not accorded me the basic respect you give to a customer who has paid you the entire bill of $1650.00 upfront without even testing the product*. By respect I mean assuring me that he has done everything that he was supposed to do. A good start is to simply show up!



Correct me if I'm wrong, since the installation you've made one appointment with him, for Tuesday, which he didn't show for because of no heat / frozen burst pipe jobs due to the recent cold snap. 





> I have never felt that a faulty dip tube will exonerate the plumber from correcting it. Why would I? *But even if I got back to where I was before with my old water heater, it would at least be a vast improvement over what I have at the moment.*


I never suggested a faulty dip tube would exonerate him, or that you thought it would.



> I would still like to correct the crossed pipes problem. But to me this would be a more transparent or honest position to be in. For instance, I could be able to more confidently approach our condo association and explain to them that I have done everything that I'm responsible for on my end (the plumber has checked everything and so on). And, assuming the crossed pipes, are in a common area, the rest would be up to the condo association.



I'm going to hazard a guess that a crossed pipe (your hot into some other cold) is the association's problem no matter where it exists. 



> I am not alleging, as you state (or ask me), that the plumber "changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems."



YES YOU DID! 




> _How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?_
> 
> 
> *But I mentioned the small claims court because I simply feel that my situation cries out for an independent judge of some kind.*


Court is what you do AFTER exhausting your options.


> Who is stopping the plumber from determining what the problem is? Not me! First it was his vacation in Maine that was the barrier. Now it's that he's very busy.
> 
> What do I do in the meantime? I've actually been quite patient, if you ask me.


When he got back from vacation (unfortunate timing with respect to the issue, but not an unforgivable act on his part.) but before this cold snap set in, jamming his schedule with calls from customers with no heat and frozen and burst pipes (priority) he reached out to you to get in there with an inspector. Whatever came of that?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Early on the OP said he turned off the supply to his WH and still got flow from the hot faucet. Dip tube or not that proves something is plumbed wrong. Replacing a dip tube will not correct that.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

" I AM YELLING, NOT TO DISRESPECT YOU BUT TO BE SURE YOU HEAR ME. keep IT SIMPLE START WITH THE EASIEST THING MENTIONED MANY POSTS AGO. THE DAM DIP TUBE CHECK. DON'T WORRY ABOUT CROSSED PIPES RIGHT NOW. MAKE SURE THE TEMPERATURE CONTROL ON THE NEW WH IS ON THE RIGHT SETTING AND CHECK THE DIP TUBE AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED MANY TIMES. OUT FOR NOW NEED A DRINK, NOT WATER EITHER.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

rjniles said:


> Early on the OP said he turned off the supply to his WH and still got flow from the hot faucet. Dip tube or not that proves something is plumbed wrong. Replacing a dip tube will not correct that.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk


"Don't know if the OP knows on from off"


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

He had hot water previous to heater replacement.








He now does not have hot water and hasn't for about a month.








If the dip tube is functioning as designed then the plumber did not do a simple replacement but modified some piping.








Stripe doesn't need a DIY forum, he needs an attorney.




Now my monitor is printing faint letters so I suspect that familiar ink problem.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

You are simply wrong when you say that my "paranoia" is what has caused the delay in him coming to find the problem.

The plumber told me that he needed to get the water heater inspected. I asked him what's a good day. He suggested a date. We agreed on it. This is the date he didn't show up.

I personally went to the plumbing inspector's office and the inspector told me that he was waiting for the plumber to call him for an appointment to come over my place to inspect the water heater.

I have no problem with the inspector coming over. 



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Turning valves, opening the cleanout drain, drawing water from the bottom, are not warranty-voiding procedures. It's ridiculous you would think so. They're your valves, your pipes, your water heater.
> 
> He's fixated on the cross-connect problem being the entire cause. Especially because he's been totally aware of it from the beginning. If there were no dip tube problem, and your heater was heating to at least the same temperature as your old heater did, your hot tap should at least provide a 50/50 mix of hot and cold.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

LawnGuy,

You are totally misreading me!

Yes, I state the following:

_How could I get compensated if he's the one who did the crossed pipes work? Put another way, how can I get an independent voice or pair of eyes on this situation?_

But when I stated the above I did not mean the plumber "changed out your water heater, then clandestinely went over to some other area and cut and soldered in some fittings and pipe to purposely cause these problems."

You are putting words in my mouth or distorting what I said to score a political point. 

What I meant was if he repaired the crossed pipes problem and there was still a problem with the heater, how would that be factored in for my benefit if he and I are the only ones involved in the process? What if there was a genuine problem with the installation? Should I simply trust that he'll point it out?



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, since the installation you've made one appointment with him, for Tuesday, which he didn't show for because of no heat / frozen burst pipe jobs due to the recent cold snap.
> 
> I never suggested a faulty dip tube would exonerate him, or that you thought it would.
> 
> ...


----------



## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

stripedbass said:


> LawnGuy,
> 
> You are totally misreading me!



You know...


I just deleted about 24 paragraphs of points, counterpoints, issues, answers, suggestions... getting more and more aggravated with each keystroke.


This issue has turned into a chicken or the egg paradox. 



Good luck with your issues.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

No problem, friend. I was just trying to be honest. 

Thanks for your time.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You know...
> 
> 
> I just deleted about 24 paragraphs of points, counterpoints, issues, answers, suggestions... getting more and more aggravated with each keystroke.
> ...


----------



## jtmell (May 28, 2014)

I think you should find another plumber, Tell you old plumber a month is too long without hot water. This should be his priority. If the problem is from his install , Then sue him. If is not from his install then pay your new plumber.
I am a plumber and you would be my priority. At least give you an hour of my time to diagnose this . Unfortunately you are not qualified to diagnose this issue.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey, all you people on DIY don't you think it's time the moderators band this guy or delete this thread. If you do hit the like. I think this guy's elevator don't go to the top floor. No wonder the plumber is not returning.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This still won't correct the problem of an as-yet=to=be-located cross-connection between the hot water piping and the somebody's cold water piping.


Even if the HW line is isolated from the rest of the units?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

I've located the OP a dip tube just in case his is missing. The old heater looks terrible but the tube looks decent from what I can see.:vs_laugh:


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Senior, you do realize that the tank will need a large scale de-scaling op followed by a re-welding of the tank?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Akpsdvan said:


> Senior, you do realize that the tank will need a large scale de-scaling op followed by a re-welding of the tank?


AH, in case he wants the whole tank rather than just the D Tube it'll work as is just as well as his new tank does like it is.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Oh this trail has de-railed big time.....


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Ockham's Razor: "...is the problem-solving principle that essentially states that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones."

Simplest Causes (previously presented)

1. Cold water pipe connected to hot water pipe downstream
2. Dip tube broken (allowing cold water to bypass heating at bottom of tank)
3.

Place yer bets


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

After reading thru this short novel/soap opera I am inclined to place the blame on either a bad tempering valve for the toilet (probably buried in the wall if it exists) or a bad tempering/mix valve in the shower valve assembly. My thoughts on this are because of the post #56 where the Op stated that the water still flowed when the valve to the water heater was closed. If the valve, which could be on the supply or feed side of the heater, is closed no water will/should flow thru the tank. Somewhere there has to be a connection between the hot and cold and these are the two most likely spots since the washing machine was ruled out.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

The problem didn't appear until _after_ the plumber/plumbers replaced the water heater, though, and the plumber didn't say that the previous heater was hooked up backwards, so there's that to consider.


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

It is also possible that after the plumber hooked up the new tank a piece of debris from the install may have made its way into a tempering valve, if one exists, causing it to stick open. Maybe, maybe not


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

Thanks for trying to help me. 

*The latest*: The plumber texted me yesterday. He wanted to know whether I was available for him to swing by this coming Friday (Feb.2). I told him that I would be available if he knew for sure that he would show up. In other words, I did not want to send an email to the other 11 condo owners in my building, alerting them that my plumber would be coming and might turn off the main water shutoff for a few minutes, only for him not to show up as he did on January 22nd. Keep in mind that 4 of the 12 condo owners in my building rent their condos. So whenever there's the possibility that the water to the building may be shut off, even for just a few minutes, they have to notify their tenants.

The plumber responded that he could not guarantee that he would show up, considering the cold weather. He advised that we not plan on meeting.

This whole thing has been a big learning experience for me. As time as gone on, I've gotten a bit wiser and began to understand how a water heater works. For instance, I now see why it's important to touch the hot water pipe on my heater. I ran into a major plumber in my town today as he was having lunch. Someone pointed him out to me. I could not help but explain to him my problem. 

He told me that it could be crossed pipes. But he also said that the first thing to do is run the hot water in one of my faucets until the hot water runs out and turns cold. Then rush to the water heater and touch the hot pipe. If it's hot, then it's probably not the dip tube but something else. I had already done this test but I did it again today, just to be sure. I ran my kitchen faucet till the water turned really cold. I then went to the basement and the hot water pipe at the heater was hot. And I mean hot as I could not keep my hand wrapped around the pipe for long. 

1) SeniorSitizen: I have not yet done your test. You had advised me to do the following: 

_Do this test by touching and holding both hot and cold pipes while a second person runs maybe a gallon or two of hot water from the sink up stairs. If the hot pipe turns cold then hot again in about a minute or less, as mentioned previously several times, there is a real chance there is no dip tube delivering the cold water to the bottom of the tank where it belongs._

2) SeniorSitizen: Another test is to drain the water heater. You suggested the following: 

_Drain 2 - 3 of gallons from the heater drain valve and if the dip tube is present and working properly the draining water temperature will decrease drastically at some point while those 2 - 3 gallons are being drained._

This is the next test I want to do. I'll just use my fingers to sense the water temperature, unless you have another suggestion.



SeniorSitizen said:


> He had hot water previous to heater replacement.
> 
> He now does not have hot water and hasn't for about a month.
> 
> ...


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Finally did the drain test today. Being the ridiculously careful person that I am. I first took a photo of what I took to be the drain. Then I went to my local Home Depot to make sure I did not need a special tool to open the drain. No, just a screw driver, I was told.

Came back home and went to the basement with a bucket. After I turned the drain valve with my screw driver, hot water shot out, not downward but horizontally. I thought that it was going to drain downward and not have any force. I was wrong. But luckily the water heater is near a wall and at the base of the wall is a long drain filled with gravel. :smile:

Well, the other thing I expected was to get hot water then it would turn to cold. But no, it was hot and stayed hot. I emptied more than 3 gallons but it just remained hot. Finally, I decided to stop and come to report my finding here. 

1) What does this mean? That the water at the bottom of the water heater is hot which means that the dip tube is working?

2) I want to point out that my shower valve is a Kohler. I just discovered this yesterday. But my kitchen sink valve is a Moen.

3) If one mixing valve is not working, would it affect the water in the other valve? For example, let us say that the shower valve is not working and this is the reason I'm getting hot water for a minute or so then it turns cold. Would this mean that the kitchen valve would perform in the same way, even if it (kitchen valve) was not defective?

Reaching out to a kind soul out there. lain:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Repeat this test at random times during the day at least 3 hours apart:

Turn on the same hot faucet. Write down the time it takes for the water to get "good and hot" and write down the time the water starts to cool down. Then turn it off.

Do some of these tests with one of the valves above your water closed and with all of those valves open.

We want to find out whether your water heater is really not contributing to the mix.

Note: If you turn off one (any one) of the valves on the pipes going to your water heater and water (any temperature) keeps coming out of your hot faucets then there is definitely some kind of cross connection.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Thanks.

Is there a preference in terms of which valve in the basement, above my water heater, to turn off when I'm doing your test? Hot or cold? Or does it not matter?



AllanJ said:


> Repeat this test at random times during the day at least 3 hours apart:
> 
> Turn on the same hot faucet. Write down the time it takes for the water to get "good and hot" and write down the time the water starts to cool down. Then turn it off.
> 
> ...


----------



## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

stripedbass said:


> Well, the other thing I expected was to get hot water then it would turn to cold. But no, it was hot and stayed hot. I emptied more than 3 gallons but it just remained hot. Finally, I decided to stop and come to report my finding here.
> 
> 1) What does this mean? That the water at the bottom of the water heater is hot which means that the dip tube is working?


 From what you write it seems you may be confused about the dip tube function.


COPIED: QUOTE:
The *dip tube* is a plastic *pipe* that travels from the cold *water* inlet down to the bottom of the *tank*. The *purpose* of the *dip tub* is to deposit the cold *water* coming in to the *tank* at the bottom, where it is heated.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

So the water to my condo unit from the water heater is coming from the *top* of the water heater via the hot pipe? 



SeniorSitizen said:


> From what you write it seems you may be confused about the dip tube function.
> 
> 
> COPIED: QUOTE:
> The *dip tube* is a plastic *pipe* that travels from the cold *water* inlet down to the bottom of the *tank*. The *purpose* of the *dip tub* is to deposit the cold *water* coming in to the *tank* at the bottom, where it is heated.


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

I finally found a diagram that made it clear to me how a water heater works. See the first diagram in the link below:

https://www.landmarkhw.com/resources/plumbing/how-a-water-heater-works/2/12



stripedbass said:


> So the water to my condo unit from the water heater is coming from the *top* of the water heater via the hot pipe?


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Correction, which valve to turn off.

Follow a pipe out of the top of the water heater. If you come to a valve before you come to a branch (elbow) then that is a valve to turn off to conduct the test. If you come to a branch before you come to a valve then forget about that pipe and try the other pipe.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

I don't understand any valve would need to be closed to do a dip tube test by opening the heater drain valve. All that's necessary is for cold water to be supplied to the dip tube (_cold water in_) and determine if the hot water temperature draining at the tank bottom diminishes in temperature after draining a few gallons.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

And it goes on....


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

In your very first post, you said that the plumber couldn't figure it out, so I'm thinking he is avoiding the situation.

Time to find a new plumber. Well, unless everyone has grown to enjoy cold showers...over the past month...during winter.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I am a Senior Citizen also . I hope this guy gets hot water before I am in the nursing home.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

stripedbass said:


> SeniorSitizen,
> 
> I finally found a diagram that made it clear to me how a water heater works. See the first diagram in the link below:
> 
> https://www.landmarkhw.com/resources/plumbing/how-a-water-heater-works/2/12



I think that I can speak for most here, We Know How the Water Heater Works, both the standard, the Boiler mate style and the on demand.


If the dip tube is not there then the new in coming cold water will go strait to the hot out point and then to a faucet that is open.


Been there seen it and fixed the dip tube and that challenge was fixed.


Why is it that people look for the most complex answer to a very simple challenge?
Reminds me of any government department, let us add layers of BS to fix a simple pot hole in the street.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Akpsdvan,

It's amazing how with Internet communication it's very easy to be misunderstood. 

I did not post that diagram to suggest that people like you on this forum will learn something from it. 

*Rather, I was trying to say that for me, that diagram is what made me get a better understanding of how a water heater works.* 

I appreciated the feedback that I got from people but it only went so far, most likely because some of us are very slow learners (I'm definitely in this group). :smile:

I therefore figured I would post the link to that diagram so that if there are other people out there who are like me, trying to solve a water heater issue but with no clue how it works, they might benefit from the diagram. 

*The diagram is also an opportunity for experienced hands like you, if you're interested, to see how you might explain things differently to a newbie so that he/she understands more quickly what the problem is.
*

Learning is a never-ending process!

That's all. And thanks for your feedback! :smile:



Akpsdvan said:


> I think that I can speak for most here, We Know How the Water Heater Works, both the standard, the Boiler mate style and the on demand.
> 
> 
> If the dip tube is not there then the new in coming cold water will go strait to the hot out point and then to a faucet that is open.
> ...


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Alan,

Here are the results so far of the test you suggested (they all were done on the kitchen faucet):

1) 1/30/2019 at 11:18pm:
It took 30 seconds for the water to turn hot and 60 seconds later it turned cold. 
No valves were shut.

2) 1/31/2019 at 8:55am:
It took 30 seconds for the water to turn hot and 60 seconds later it turned cold.
No valves were shut.

3) 1/31/2019 at 8:42pm:
It took 30 seconds for the water to turn hot and 20 seconds later it turned cold.
The valve for the hot water at the water heater was shut.

4) 2/1/2019 at 8:38am:
It took 30 seconds for the water to turn hot and 15 seconds later it turned cold.
The valve for the hot water and the valve for the cold water at the water heater were both shut.



AllanJ said:


> Repeat this test at random times during the day at least 3 hours apart:
> 
> Turn on the same hot faucet. Write down the time it takes for the water to get "good and hot" and write down the time the water starts to cool down. Then turn it off.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

stripedbass said:


> 4) 2/1/2019 at 8:38am:
> It took 30 seconds for the water to turn hot and 15 seconds later it turned cold.
> *The valve for the hot water and the valve for the cold water at the water heater were both shut.*



Then your hot water is not supplied from the new water.


Once again I ask, _*Are you sure that is your heater?*_


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Colbyt,

Thanks for responding.

All I can tell you is that my column or section of the building has only 3 condo owners. All the water heaters are accounted for. 

But maybe there's something I do not know. I know that the other owners have already replaced their water heaters. Mine was the last one to be replaced.

I don't know what else to say or do. :smile:



Colbyt said:


> Then your hot water is not supplied from the new water.
> 
> Once again I ask, _*Are you sure that is your heater?*_


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I nominate Stripedbass for the DIY awards for the most reply's and longest thread in DIY history. If it is the longest running thread. The award will be a Statue of all kinds of tools in bronze with a plaque that has stripedbass on it with the date and the Title of the OP post.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

There's an old adage that visiting relatives and fish begin to smell after about 3 days. OMG, no wonder that plumber won't come back.:vs_laugh:
Sorry stripe. Some days I just can't help myself.:sad:


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## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

a new test, if you have access to the others water heaters, turn off their valve one at a time and check if you still have hot water, you may get water from another bad water heater!


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Just had a thought...

Is there a small tank water heater under your sink/sinks or tucked away in your condo?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

carmusic,

Are you referring to the hot water valves for the water heaters that me neighbors own?

Also, does this in any way mean that the problem could be different from the crossed pipe possibility? Or is it the same problem?



carmusic said:


> a new test, if you have access to the others water heaters, turn off their valve one at a time and check if you still have hot water, you may get water from another bad water heater!


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Have you yet drawn a diagram of the hot pipe from your water heater to where that pipe disappears into the ceiling (in the next basement)? Making a note of any tee along the way and where that branch goes to or comes from? Also making a note of any valves along the way and valves in any branches that you find.

Really, there are not supposed to be any branches along that hot pipe so every such branch you find needs to be explained.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Thanks, Allan.

I have not drawn a diagram for the hot pipe. I will do that as soon as I get a chance. I'm especially thankful for your pointing out what I should be looking out for.



AllanJ said:


> Have you yet drawn a diagram of the hot pipe from your water heater to where that pipe disappears into the ceiling (in the next basement)? Making a note of any tee along the way and where that branch goes to or comes from? Also making a note of any valves along the way and valves in any branches that you find.
> 
> Really, there are not supposed to be any branches along that hot pipe so every such branch you find needs to be explained.


----------



## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

A couple of pages ago I think I suggested drawing a diagram.
Perhaps people can speculate a bit more about what the situation is in reality.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I hear you, Bob. 

I need to, once again, get access to the adjacent basement from one of the condo trustees. Once I get it I'll be able to draw the diagram.

Bear with me.

Thanks.



bob22 said:


> A couple of pages ago I think I suggested drawing a diagram.
> Perhaps people can speculate a bit more about what the situation is in reality.


----------



## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

stripedbass said:


> carmusic,
> 
> Are you referring to the hot water valves for the water heaters that me neighbors own?
> 
> Also, does this in any way mean that the problem could be different from the crossed pipe possibility? Or is it the same problem?



yes, with all of those pipes your hot water may come from another heater so a quick test would be to close the neighbours valve for few seconds and check if your hot water flow stops


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

stripedbass said:


> Came back home and went to the basement with a bucket. After I turned the drain valve with my screw driver, hot water shot out, not downward but horizontally. I thought that it was going to drain downward and not have any force. I was wrong. But luckily the water heater is near a wall and at the base of the wall is a long drain filled with gravel. :smile:
> *
> Well, the other thing I expected was to get hot water then it would turn to cold. But no, it was hot and stayed hot. I emptied more than 3 gallons but it just remained hot. Finally, I decided to stop and come to report my finding here. *
> 
> ...


No, if a dip tube is present and being supplied with cold water we would expect the water temperature to decrease at the drain valve by the time 3 gallons were drained. If there is cross piping and a neighbor is using your hot water tank this dip tube test remains valid. To remove all doubt of this dip tube test I would prefer the water be drained into a container to verify the amount. In my opinion it's time to begin removing all doubt. We don't want COLDIRON to go to a nursing facility without an answer. :biggrin2:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

Thanks for explaining it to me in a way that I can easily understand. 

Are you sure about 3 gallons being the amount I should test? I ask because I can easily test 3 gallons. 

Anyway, I'll see what I can do.



SeniorSitizen said:


> No, if a dip tube is present and being supplied with cold water we would expect the water temperature to decrease at the drain valve by the time 3 gallons were drained. If there is cross piping and a neighbor is using your hot water tank this dip tube test remains valid. To remove all doubt of this dip tube test I would prefer the water be drained into a container to verify the amount. In my opinion it's time to begin removing all doubt. We don't want COLDIRON to go to a nursing facility without an answer. :biggrin2:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Shouldn't the trustees be more cooperative in dealing with this problem? Including giving you access to the other basement whenever you want?

What do you condominium documents say about who owns what stretch of pipe?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

stripedbass said:


> SeniorSitizen,
> 
> Are you sure about 3 gallons being the amount I should test? I ask because I can easily test 3 gallons.
> 
> Anyway, I'll see what I can do.



We're attempting to remove all doubt so go ahead and drain 3 gallons at least and 4 if you like and continue to test for temperature decrease as you drain. With that amount of water being drained there should be a significant temperature reduction.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

To check if your hot water is being sent to a neighbor, just turn off your water heater. Whoever screams the loudest is the winner. :devil3:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Suggest turning off the cold inlet or hot outlet of your water heater when you are not using hot water. This would ensure that neighbors are not using your hot water and gas just in case there was a cross connection.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi folks,

Thanks for your patience. 

Two days ago, I did the drain test on my water heater. Also, after getting the key to the adjacent basement from a condo trustee, I mapped out my hot water pipe in rough format while in the basement with a flashlight, pencil and notebook, then later on drew it out as neatly as I could, from the draft. I had to return to the basement one more time, to make sure I got things right. It was quite the adventure.

First, the drain test result (the pipe diagram will be in the next post).

*I drained a 10-quart bucket I have three times. That equals to 7.5 gallons. 10 quarts equals 2.5 gallons, I found out after googling. The water temperature remained the same: hot but not scalding* (some days earlier I had decided to change my heater temperature setting from the highest to a much lower one. It didn't make any noticeable difference for my showers and hopefully I saved a bit on gas).


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Now the hot water pipe diagrams. 

Drawing things out made much more sense than taking photos as I did during the first go-around (many thanks for the suggestion). Also, I caught things which I definitely missed earlier. For example, the pipes going to the 3rd and 4th basements, from the main, are on their own. This makes it easier for me since I don't have to worry about them.

And from the great suggestion I got here that I photograph my diagram after drawing it, I got another idea: why not scan the diagram? Learning is a never-ending process and one thing builds on another. :smile:

Anyway, *I'm attaching two diagrams*. *One is of the hot water pipe and how it runs in my basement*. *The other diagram is of the adjacent basement and shows what happens to my hot water pipe when it enters that basement*. There was a surprise for me but I'm not going to mention it until I give others a chance to eyeball the diagram.

Please let me know what you think.

The condo trustee told me I could keep the key to the adjacent basement until I get my water heater situation figured out. So if you have any questions I can easily return to that basement.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Next thing to try:

1. Close the valve in your hot water pipe near the wall on the neighbor's side, circled in red. Then test your hot faucets for how long the hot water lasts. Also test some cold faucets for proper operation.

New question:

2. Where do the pipes marked with the red question marks go in your basement?

(In the diagram for your side of the basement wall you show one pipe going into the neighbor's basement. In the diagram for the neighbor's side you have two pipes coming into their basement through the same opening and a third pipe coming from a second opening. Where in your basement do the second pipe and third pipe go.)


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

If your drawing is correct, your hot pipe is connected to the cold water from the main with 2 shut off valves to isolate them. Make sure those 2 valves are closed.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

In response to your post (thank you, by the way):

1) I would love to shut that valve. But before I do that I'd like to give my neighbor a heads-up, just in case the pipe the valve is connected to also goes to my neighbor's unit. Also, I had told the trustees that I was only taking photos and drawing a diagram (to show you folks) but not turning any valves. But trust me, I'm as curious as you are.

2) The pipes you marked in red: Sorry, I have very poor drawing skills. Let me explain.

The pipe on the left, that has the valve you want me to shut off, comes from the hot water outlet of my water heater. It then enters the neighboring basement. Right after it comes out of the wall, it has a T or an elbow (don't know the exact term) that goes up the ceiling (presumably to my 3rd floor condo unit). But this same pipe also continues on into the new basement which is why I have an arrow that states, "This pipe is a continuation of my hot pipe." So part of the pipe goes up and the rest of it continues into the new basement. 

The pipe to the immediate right does not go into my basement or come from my basement. This is the pipe that really challenged my drawing skills! Rather, this pipe comes from the hot outlet of my neighbor's water heater. Then right before the hole in the wall it too has its own elbow or T and turns upward and enters the ceiling (I presume it goes to my neighbor's condo unit on the 3rd floor). But the way I drew it made it look like the pipe enters my basement (like I said, it does not).

The pipe to the far right goes to the cold water inlet on my water heater and the furnaces next to my heater that belong to my neighbors who live on the 2 floors below me.

By the way, I just realized that you only asked about two pipes but I gave you an explanation for all of them. Hope this does not confuse you.



AllanJ said:


> Next thing to try:
> 
> 1. Close the valve in your hot water pipe near the wall on the neighbor's side, circled in red. Then test your hot faucets for how long the hot water lasts. Also test some cold faucets for proper operation.
> 
> ...


----------



## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Please notice that I've added info to my previous post in case someone started responding before I was done editing. :smile:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I made reference to a third pipe in your lower diagram, to the right of the right pipe you last described to me, and going into another hole in the wall. Where does that third pipe (I put another red question mark next to it) go?

New question:

3. Who owns the shutoff valve that I have circled in red. Use your condominium documents to find the answer.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Basic question to all that have responded to this or are just watching it. If you spent $1600.00 on a new water heater would you be on a DIY site or would you be looking for the plumber that installed it to come back and correct the problem?

PS: And had plenty of hot water before the replacement.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Alan,

The pipe to the far right is the one I described in the earlier post when I stated:

_The pipe to the far right goes to the cold water inlet on my water heater and the furnaces next to my heater that belong to my neighbors who live on the 2 floors below me._

And the middle pipe, as I stated in the same earlier post, does not go into my basement. Instead, it goes up the ceiling and presumably to my neighbor's condo unit on the 3rd floor.

It's only the first and third pipes that are in both basements.

In terms of the shutoff you've circled that should be a common area shutoff, as far as I know. That's why the condo association paid for us to get shutoffs in the basement (the ones that lead to our units, not the ones by our water heaters).



AllanJ said:


> I made reference to a third pipe in your lower diagram, to the right of the right pipe you last described to me, and going into another hole in the wall. Where does that third pipe (I put another red question mark next to it) go?
> 
> New question:
> 
> 3. Who owns the shutoff valve that I have circled in red. Use your condominium documents to find the answer.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Me, if it were limited to my house, I'd document my attempts to have him resolve this, then talk to his union, then talk to the people that licensed him. Failing that, small claims court - or Judge Judy.

However, if i recall correctly, a plumber was working on the adjacent condo's (limited access) boiler room, and it may be that that plumber connected his hot to their cold.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I'm going to return to the basements and check out a tag that had some info on it.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

4. Do various other items along your hot pipe within 24 inches of the shutoff valve I circled in red look new compared with parts of the neighbor's hot pipe near the same opening in the wall and the cold pipe (far right) going to the other opening in the wall?

5. When (datewise) did trustees say that the association would pay for all of you to get shutoffs relative to when (datewise) you had your water heater replaced?

I need the results of #1 before I can say for sure that the shutoff I have circled in red and the pipe from it continuing further into your neighbor's basement have no socially redeeming value and should be removed outright and the pipe ends capped off. It may be desirable to put another shutoff in a different location to satisfy the association requirement. When testing cold faucets, run them moderately fast for at least 45 seconds each.

It is easy for another plumber working for your neighbor to think of your hot as his cold next to his hot while standing in his basement looking at the hole in the wall. If that plumber had shut off the whole building water, your hot would have been conveniently dead (after draining a gallon or so from all the pipes upstairs) and then made the erroneous hookup of his cold, shutoff and all, to your hot.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

I went to the basements before I got your latest post. I've just gotten back. Let me first report the new things I discovered then you can tell me whether you still want me to answer your questions or not.

During my previous trips to the basements I was mainly focussing on the hot water pipe that came from my water heater because this is where I was advised to observe. 

*Now after my last visit to the basements I need to mention that in my second diagram (the basement adjacent to mine) there should be 3 pipes coming from my basement, not 2 as indicated.* 

*Everything in my diagram is correct. The only difference is that there's this additional pipe, blue in color and made of plastic or rubber, and it joins a metal pipe that goes up the ceiling. This metal metal pipe has a shutoff that has a tag that says it's the cold water supply for my condo unit and for my neighbor's unit which is also on the 3rd floor*. 

*So there are 2 shutoffs near the wall opening, not one as my diagram indicates*.

Even though this third pipe enters from my basement, it actually originates from the same basement it comes from. This is because its actual starting point is the building's water main. And the main is not in my basement but in the adjacent basement. 

So how does this happen? All the blue plastic pipes in the basements are from when we got shutoffs installed in 2016. Anyway, what I noticed today is that the plumber ran a blue pipe from the water main in the adjacent basement, then into the wall opening on the far right of the same basement and into my basement. Then it returns to the adjacent basement through the first wall opening of the adjacent basement and then goes up the ceiling. I think the reason he did this was to avoid the storage cages in the adjacent basement. But if you're totally lost at the point I can understand. :smile:

Another thing I noticed today: The metal pipe that enters my basement through an opening on the far right of the wall (not shown on my diagram but it's the same one on the far right of the other diagram). This pipe goes to the cold water inlet of my water heater and the furnaces next to it. BUT is also branches off and goes to the cold water inlets of the other 2 water heaters in my basement.

I've probably confused everyone with these crazy descriptions. I could draw additional diagrams. :smile:

Below is a photo of the shutoff you circled and the other one near it (they are both green in color). You can also see some of the work from when we got shutoffs three years ago (notice the blue pipes).


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

For now the cold pipe that goes through its own hole between basements and that goes to the cold inlets of all the water heaters in your basement -- ignore it for now.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

There is a pipe coming off of your hot pipe at right angles (parallel to the wall) and on the neighbor's side of the shutoff I circled in red and going over or to the blue pipe and not shown in your original diagram. Where does this go?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Have you talked to anyone yet?

I think you should get get one of the trustees down to inspect and/or observe while you shut off the valve I circled in red and conduct my test #1. Tell them you are going to conduct the test at 10 PM tonight (or sooner if they choose).


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

So you have six pipes in all visible from the neighbor's side? A blue pipe and a copper pipe at the far right, and two blue pipes (seen in your photo) and two copper pipes at the hole where your hot pipe comes through?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

I'm attaching a new diagram I drew today of my basement. 

You'll notice that I've labelled some pipes as being blue. These are pipes that are blue in color and made of plastic or rubber (don't know what they're really made of or what they're actually called. Just know that they're not metal). These blue pipes came into being when we got shutoffs installed in 2016.

After this post I'll then try to answer your different posts individually.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I'm reposting the diagram for the piping in my basement because I left out something important in my previous post: *I forgot to show the shutoff for all the water going to my condo unit.* This shutoff, however, only shuts off the cold water and not the hot.

Anyway, I've attached a revised diagram.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Ignore all of the blue pipes starting now.

I need the test results for #1 in post #235. Refer to #248.

I need the answer to #3 in post #239. Scan and post as attachments the pages in your condo. documents that verify the answer you arrived at.

I need the answer to the question in post #247.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

Regarding Question 1: Trust me, I will do this test as soon as possible. It needs a bit of coordination between a couple of people. I'll definitely get back to you on this.



AllanJ said:


> Next thing to try:
> 
> 1. Close the valve in your hot water pipe near the wall on the neighbor's side, circled in red. Then test your hot faucets for how long the hot water lasts. Also test some cold faucets for proper operation.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Regarding Question 3: I'm quite certain that it's a common area valve so it's owned by the condo association or they control it but let me do some consulting. I'd love to quote you the relevant passage in our condo docs. Just bear with me for a while.



AllanJ said:


> I made reference to a third pipe in your lower diagram, to the right of the right pipe you last described to me, and going into another hole in the wall. Where does that third pipe (I put another red question mark next to it) go?
> 
> New question:
> 
> 3. Who owns the shutoff valve that I have circled in red. Use your condominium documents to find the answer.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Regarding the story on the pipes at the wall opening (I was in the basement yesterday double-checking them):

1) Beginning on the far left is a *copper pipe. This is my hot water pipe. It comes in from my water heater's hot outlet in my basement then two things happen to it. Right when it clears the opening a part of it makes a short right turn then goes up the ceiling (presumably to my unit).* From the photo it's hard to see this. *But the hot pipe also continues to come into the adjacent basement* and does two things: *part of it makes its way to the cold inlet of my neighbor's water heater, and another part ends up linking with the pipe that comes from the building's main water supply* (see diagram of the adjacent basement). 

2) *There are not 6 pipes at the wall opening, as you thought. Rather, there are 4.* Of these 5 only 2 (the copper one and a blue one) go through the opening. The other 3 come from the adjacent basement itself and stop at the opening then go up. I should have mentioned much earlier that the reason why the area by the wall opening is convenient for the pipes is that there's a vent stack there so the pipes run up the building beside it (I've attached a new photo below, to help you visualize things. I think it will also answer your question regarding the blue pipe that appears to be parallel to the basement wall. In case the photo is not clear, the blue pipe that comes from my basement and the "parallel" blue pipe are the same pipe). 

*Anyway, of the three pipes that go up one is for my hot water as I mentioned; the second is for the hot water for my neighbor on the 3rd floor; and the third is the blue one that comes from the main, and connects by the opening with a metal pipe that goes up (this is the one that has a label stating that it's the cold water supply for my neighbor and I).* 

Hope this helps. Please don't hesitate if you have any other questions.

Thanks.



AllanJ said:


> There is a pipe coming off of your hot pipe at right angles (parallel to the wall) and on the neighbor's side of the shutoff I circled in red and going over or to the blue pipe and not shown in your original diagram. Where does this go?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Attached is a brighter photo of the blue pipe taken from a different angle (the previous photo was too dark). You can see that it's only one pipe, not two.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

Regarding who owns the shutoff that you circled, I'm reading from our condo building's Master Deed.

Under "Description of Common Areas and Facilities," is a paragraph that states:

_The common areas and facilities of the Condominium (the "Common Elements") consist of the entire Condominium, including all parts of the Building other than the Units, and include, without limitation, the following:..._

_All conduits, chutes, ducts, plumbing, wiring, flues and other facilities for the furnishing of; utility services or waste removal which are contained in portions of the Building contributing to the structure or support thereof, and all such facilities contained within any Unit which serve parts of the Building other than the Unit within which such facilities are contained._

I'm only quoting the part that seems relevant for our purposes. The section is more than a page long for it includes other parts of the common area. 

I don't know whether this is what you were asking for. Please let me know if it's not.

Thanks.



stripedbass said:


> Regarding Question 3: I'm quite certain that it's a common area valve so it's owned by the condo association or they control it but let me do some consulting. I'd love to quote you the relevant passage in our condo docs. Just bear with me for a while.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Regarding reply #247 the pipe connected at right angles to your hot pipe and parallel to the wall and in the red box in the picture below, what is that?

It is on the neighbor side of the valve I had circled in red in another post and therefore not shown on your hand written drawing.

Thanks for the quotations from your condo. documents. From what you quoted, any repairs or corrections to any of the pipes shown, is a common responsibility unless charged to someone who deliberately damaged or altered them. With this in mind I would say that the trustees should take over from here and fix it forthwith.

6. Can you quote from your condo. documents anything about water heaters? You might find something relevant in paragraphs mentioning "limited common area".


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The pipe you have boxed in is part of my hot pipe. That's the turn it takes before going up the ceiling to my unit. 

But keep in mind that that part of the pipe makes a turn but the rest of the pipe continues forward towards the camera. 

Do you now see what I've been trying to say regarding the hot pipe?

In terms of the condo docs making any reference to water heaters, I do not see anything. But I'll keep looking. 

By the way, I never intended to fix any of the shutoff valves or piping myself. I knew they were part of the common area. I just wanted to get as good an idea as possible of what might be going on before I approached the trustees. The plumber who installed my water heater made it sound like it would be one big endless goose chase, and all the while his billing clock would be ticking. This is what made me very uncomfortable. 



AllanJ said:


> Regarding reply #247 the pipe connected at right angles to your hot pipe and parallel to the wall and in the red box in the picture below, what is that?
> 
> It is on the neighbor side of the valve I had circled in red in another post and therefore not shown on your hand written drawing.
> 
> ...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

In your hand written diagram the pipe that takes the turn and goes up into the ceiling and up to your unit is on your side of the shutoff valve (that I circled in red).

The pipe I boxed in in red is on the neighbor's side of the shutoff valve as I saw it in the photograph.

Could you clarify?

I asked about the condo documents because maybe the trustees should be doing all this research and maybe it should be a common expense while the plumber's billing clock ticks away on the wild goose chase.

Is there anything in the documents under "definition of the unit" or "the unit consists of ..." or "limited common area" that might include the water heater as yours (your unit) as opposed to actually being a common element, the only reason it being a separate heater from the neighbors' being to bill you for the gas it consumes?

I have owned units in over half a dozen condo. complexes and have gone through that many sets of condo. documents over the years.

A lot of time would be saved, and my experiences and I should advocate, that you should approach this subject by doing hands on experiments first and writing down the results and comparing notes second. as opposed to doing lots of research first and doing just one experiment second.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

You and the other Good Samaritans on this forum have helped me enough and I truly appreciate it. In fact, I'm now pretty sure that the condo association needs to get involved. This started to get clear to me after you guys gave me the brilliant idea to do the various tests in my unit and draw the diagrams. 

All this was totally new to me and the plumber I used for the water heater installation leaves much to be desired in terms of communication. All he did was install the heater and then pretty much indicated that his part was over. 

He made it seem as though to find the crossed pipes was this big mystery and it was anyone's guess how long it would take and cost to find it. He said the problem pipes could be behind a wall, in the attic, anywhere. It was scary to hear.

The plumbing inspectors in my town were more assuring to me than my own plumber! They told me that the tests you guys suggested was the right path.

I simply wanted to get a better idea of the scope of the problem before formally presenting it to the trustees. I'm now about to this. At least now I kind of have a better grip of what the problem might be. Please keep in mind that our 3 trustees are in the same boat as I am in terms of experience. In fact, all of them have been in the building for far less than I. And we're in a funny situation in terms of our management company (too long and complicated to get into here).

And keep in mind that it's not like our condo association has an unlimited budget. There are always all kinds of pressures on the budget. Requests have to be prioritized based on urgency. This means that having a good understanding of what the problem is helps a lot.

Allan, you've done all you can. Please be assured that your help was highly appreciated by me. 

Does this make sense to you? I hope it does.



AllanJ said:


> In your hand written diagram the pipe that takes the turn and goes up into the ceiling and up to your unit is on your side of the shutoff valve (that I circled in red).
> 
> The pipe I boxed in in red is on the neighbor's side of the shutoff valve as I saw it in the photograph.
> 
> ...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Another important test:

Close the valve I have marked with a red triangle, leaving all of the other valves open. Run the hot water up in your unit as I had previously suggested.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The pipe you boxed in and the pipe in both diagrams are one and the same. It's the one that comes from the hot water outlet of my water heater and goes up to my unit but also goes to the cold inlet of my neighbor's hot water heater and to the nearby furnaces. And it also goes to the water main.

I just have poor drawing skills. :smile:

One thing I should have done was to post a revised diagram of the adjacent basement with the wall openings labelled so that they match the letters on my side of the basement. For example, Wall Opening B in the adjacent basement is the one on the left (in other words, on the direct other side of Wall Opening B in the adjacent basement is Wall Opening B). 



AllanJ said:


> In your hand written diagram the pipe that takes the turn and goes up into the ceiling and up to your unit is on your side of the shutoff valve (that I circled in red).
> 
> The pipe I boxed in in red is on the neighbor's side of the shutoff valve as I saw it in the photograph.
> 
> Could you clarify?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

You have a question mark on the pipe at the far right of the adjacent basement diagram. That pipe comes from the main water supply for the building and when it enters my basement it eventually goes up the ceiling and appears to be the cold water supply for the 2 neighbors below me.



AllanJ said:


> Another important test:
> 
> Close the valve I have marked with a red triangle, leaving all of the other valves open. Run the hot water up in your unit as I had previously suggested.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Your hand drawing has the pipe tapping off the side of your hot line on your side of the shutoff I circled in red and then going up into the ceiling .

The photograph suggests to me the pipe (I drew the red box around it) tapping off of the side of your hot line on the neighbor's side of the shutoff I circled in red and then going up into the ceiling. 

Which is it? Go back down to the neighbor's basement and recheck.

Ignore the pipes I marked with the question marks for now.

We would have gotten a better handle on things a lot faster if you had gone ahead and started performing the experiments and recorded the results days or weeks ago.

Have the trustees read this forum and this thread? I think it would be good reading for them. The trustees are not doing you a favor by letting you poke around in the basements. I am doing the trustees a favor by replying to this thread.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I'll double check tomorrow. In the meantime I'm attaching 2 photos to give you an idea of why it's tricky to make drawings.

The first photo is of the wall opening from my basement. The second is of the same opening but from the adjacent basement.

By the way, the wall opening, on my basement side, is actually in my storage cage. 



AllanJ said:


> Your hand drawing has the pipe tapping off the side of your hot line on your side of the shutoff I circled in red and then going up into the ceiling .
> 
> The photograph suggests to me the pipe (I drew the red box around it) tapping off of the side of your hot line on the neighbor's side of the shutoff I circled in red and then going up into the ceiling.
> 
> ...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

My current suggestion is now to turn off the shutoff that I put the red triangle around and then run the test of running the hot water up in your apartment. Then run some cold faucets for a minute or two to see that hot water does not infiltrate them.

I am almost positively sure that your plumber who installed your new water heater had nothing to do with this problem and if you were to call him "back" it would really be a brand new independent project for him to investigate this latest issue.

By the way, what was the surprise for you that you were not going to mention immediately back in post #234?


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I'm attaching a revised set of my diagrams. One of the things I did was to label the wall openings so that when looking at an opening in one basement you can see its corresponding opening in the other basement. 

I also did some other editing. I'm really challenged when it comes to drawing. :smile:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allen,

Shutting off the valve is my next thing to do. 

However, I previously did not want to bother you with too many details so I did not disclose to you that the valve you circled and the one you drew a triangle around are both in very bad shape. In fact, the one you circled has a tiny leak. Kindly see the attached photos below. The first photo is of the valve you circled. The other one is of the one you drew a triangle around. That's what you get with an old building. :smile:

We already had a valve bust last year. It wasn't fun. This is yet another reason why I've been proceeding with quite some caution. At the very least, I need to be with a trustee when shutting any valve, as you very wisely suggested earlier.

In terms of the surprise that I encountered when I first drew my diagrams, it was discovering that the hot pipe from my water heater is connected to the cold pipe of my neighbor's water heater. 

No other water heater in my diagrams has this situation. Also, if the cold water is traveling from the Main, I presume it's going in the opposite direction from the hot water coming from my water heater. Am I correct? 

Finally, a nagging problem is why my old water heater was able to overcome this problem (if it indeed is the problem)? Can it simply be explained by the temperature level or power of the old heater as compared to the new one? I don't know.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm very grateful for the help you and the other Good Samaritans on this forum have given me. 



AllanJ said:


> My current suggestion is now to turn off the shutoff that I put the red triangle around and then run the test of running the hot water up in your apartment. Then run some cold faucets for a minute or two to see that hot water does not infiltrate them.
> 
> I am almost positively sure that your plumber who installed your new water heater had nothing to do with this problem and if you were to call him "back" it would really be a brand new independent project for him to investigate this latest issue.
> 
> By the way, what was the surprise for you that you were not going to mention immediately back in post #234?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

You have a photo of the wall opening B viewed from the other (neighbor's) basement. In it I see a blue pipe with a tag hanging down (ignore that for now) and to the left is what I take it is your copper hot pipe. Deep in the hole B I see a green lever handle on your hot pipe. Is this a third valve?

Meanwhile you have a photo with a valve with a red round handle that you referred to as the valve I put the red circle around. And a blue lever valve out in the open that you referred to as the one I put the triangle around. 

Do not turn off the valve on your hot pipe deep in the hole (if there is one on your pipe in there).

Maybe the problem happened because the neighbor or his plumber turned one of the valves not understanding what it did.

For the life of me I cannot explain why the water got hot for a minute before it turned cold. Instead I would have expected that the water would have never gotten hot even for a moment although it might have been continuously slightly warm.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Unless you turned down the temp of your water heater, your bill must be very high and your neighbor's water/electric/hot water bill is probably lower - maybe even a *lot* lower.

Looks like the connection of your hot water output to their water heater's cold water supply is in the other owner's basement room. if so, looks like your plumber may be off the hook.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Yes, there is a 3rd valve. In fact, because it looks like it's in good shape, I was at first going to suggest to you that maybe this is valve I should shut. 

However, after looking at it today, I realized that its location is *after* the hot pipe makes a T to come up to my condo when moving in the same direction as the cold water coming from the Main (in other words, the cold water would be coming from behind the camera and moving forward). 

The other thing is if I shut that valve I would not be able to get hot water since my water heater is on the other side of the wall. 

The attached photo shows the valve I'm talking about. It's the green one on the left.



AllanJ said:


> You have a photo of the wall opening B viewed from the other (neighbor's) basement. In it I see a blue pipe with a tag hanging down (ignore that for now) and to the left is what I take it is your copper hot pipe. Deep in the hole B I see a green lever handle on your hot pipe. Is this a third valve?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

OT: Turn off your own water heater cold supply shutoff or turn off your hot outlet using the fourth valve, in your own basement, when you are not using the hot water. Then your hot water will not drift over to your neighbor's water heater to become preheated new water for him when he uses hot water.

Or, after you conduct the tests I described and you found that that indeed fixed the problem then the valve I suggested will stop this drift provided the valve stays closed.


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## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

so is it working ok now?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Repeating @carmusic request, can the op or anyone who helped on this thread give a summary as to what was or wasn't found for a solution. I followed for awhile but burned out.

Thanks,
Bud


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

There hasn't been one and until a professional is called it I doubt there will be.


I keep reading, hoping for a solution but it just keeps going in circles.


It is OTOH a great example of why you should never buy a condo conversion unit.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Colbyt, I sensed that from the last few posts.
Did anyone ever look at the dip tube??
Did the original plumber ever come back and if so what was his excuse?

The wife inherited a condo in FL and it had problems. Only info we could get from that association were the bills. Sold it and glad.

Bud


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Bud9051 said:


> Did anyone ever look at the dip tube??
> 
> Bud


To the best of my knowledge the dip tube was never actually examined. A few posts pack he had drained a few gallons from the drain valve to test for dip tube function and the water temperature never decreased as it normally would in a tank of this type. I dropped out during the piping schematic discussion. To me it seemed as if some went east some went west and some went over the *cuckoo's* nest.:biggrin2:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Folks,

The reason I did not respond earlier is that I simply did not have anything new to report. That was until today.

On February 14 (Valentine's Day), I informed the condo trustees in my building, via an email, of what I had found. All they knew before this was that my water heater was not giving me steady hot water, and that I requested the key for the adjacent basement to get some info on the piping and take some photographs. 

I therefore described the help I got from all of you in this forum. I brought them up to speed on the crossed pipes situation. I pointed out that things were pointing to this being the likely problem. 

I then informed them that the next step was to shut off the valve that Allan and I zeroed in on and see what happens. And I pointed out, as Allan suggested, that we should have a trustee present when we shut the valve off.

This past Monday I got a response from the trustees. Since last year we had a pipe burst on us and the newly installed shutoffs did not stop the water from gushing out like crazy until we shut off the building's main, the trustees wanted the condo association's plumbing company to swing by to examine the shutoff manifold. And while at it they could look at my water heater situation. They said that if the problem with my heater was the result of the pipes in the common area the association would pay for it. But if it turned out that the problem was with my heater then I would be responsible. Fair enough.

On Wednesday I informed my plumber that the condo association's plumbing company planned to visit our building, and they would examine my water heater situation. If the problem was with the common area pipes the association would pay for it. But if the problem turned out to be with the heater then I would pay for it but expect to be reimbursed by my plumber. I was doing all this communication via text messages.

The plumber responded immediately. He did not want the condo association's plumbing company to touch his work. He also said that he was going to schedule an inspection with my town's plumbing inspector (I had spoken with the inspector a while back and he told me that he was waiting for my plumber's call). 

Anyway, the inspection was this morning. The installation work was approved. I asked the inspector whether his approval meant that the water heater's dip tube and things like that were fine. He said no. He explained that the inspection examined things like the flue size, whether there was a carbon monoxide detector close by, the connections to the Hot outlet and Cold inlet and so forth.

Up to this point I had not mentioned to the plumber or the inspector about the connection between my heater's hot water pipe and my neighbor's heater's cold water pipe. I pointed this out to them. And I explained that there was a shutoff valve between the two pipes. The inspector said that that could be the source of my problem right there. My plumber was not only surprised but he had an embarrassed look on his face. He said we go over to the adjacent basement to examine the valve. 

*When we got to the adjacent basement, I showed the plumber how my hot water pipe ran from my basement to the one we were now in, and how it went to my neighbor's water heater's cold water inlet on the one hand, and the building's main on the other hand. I told him that I had not touched the valve because it had a slight leak. He grabbed it immediately and shut it. He said that we go to my condo unit and check the water.*

*When we got to my unit and turned on the hot water it took like less than a minute before the hot water arrived. And for the first time since my water heater got installed, the hot water did not run out after a minute. It actually got hotter and kept coming! He then turned on the cold water and it came without any problem*. 

The inspector and plumber advised that I keep the valve in the basement shut unless I learn from my neighbor that it has affected her water situation. 

The plumber sheepishly said that he regretted that it had taken this long to solve the problem. He said that he would recommend cutting the pipe so that there's absolutely no connection between the two crossed pipes. He said that he could do it but he would understand if I did not want him to do the job. I told him and the inspector (before he left. He left before my plumber. He said he had to run along as he had a lot to do) that my deep gratitude was to my friends on this forum. 

Anyway, I sent an email to the trustees and my neighbor to inform them of the development. I have not yet heard back from the trustees. But my neighbor has already emailed back. She's happy that I now have hot water. But she won't be able to check whether the valve that was shut has affected her water situation in any way until around Sunday because she's away. She also cautions that "before any pipes are disconnected we should make sure that cold water line isn't feeding an outside hose or some other element we haven't considered." It's good advice. 

However, in terms of her unit, I cannot see how she would be affected since there are 3 pipes in the basement that go up to our two units: There's a pipe for her hot water; there's a pipe for my hot water; and there's a pipe for the cold water that she and I share. But given the fact that our building is very old, there's the possibility that the valve we closed today actually affects something important. We'll just have to wait and see.

But at least we have now narrowed the possibilities quite a bit! Don't you think?

I'm bowing to Allan and all the other Good Samaritans on this forum. I don't even know how to begin to thank you all.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

My question is who opened the valve?

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

rjniles,

I wish I knew the answer to your question.

You have to realize that this problem was never on my radar. I never knew that there was a valve in the adjacent basement that had serious implications for my hot water.

Also, I now have to wonder whether my previous water heater was simply able to overcome the problem of having the valve open. Or whether the opening of the valve happened on the same day that I got my new water heater. You have to remember that I did not have a problem with my hot water before I got the new heater.

It's all quite strange if you stop to think about it.



rjniles said:


> My question is who opened the valve?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Time to get a big tag with wire tie on it reading do not open this valve for any reason without contacting stripedbass Ha Ha in condo # with floor number.

Or get a valve lock to put on it.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I gotta ask-- is this your first hot shower since Christmas?:smile:


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

All those other old valves should be replaced while he's disconnecting that pipe/valve.

Thinking this thread should be pinned as a warning to others.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

It might be time to tag or label the various pipes.

A label identifying the OP's hot water line as it passes into the neighboring basement should be placed between the green lever handled valve deep in the hole ("B" in some of the diagrams" and the tee with the line going up into the ceiling.

Labels stuck to the pipes are better than hang tags since arrows showing the water flow will help.

The pipe section extending beyond the OP's hot supply into the ceiling and over to the red handled valve in the neighbor's basement has no correct water flow and therefore should not have an arrow marking.

A tag may be placed near the round red handle valve might be labeled "This pipe section should be removed".

How are the apartment units numbered? The appropriate numbers should go on the labels or tags.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> It might be time to tag or label the various pipes.
> 
> A label identifying the OP's hot water line as it passes into the neighboring basement should be placed between the green lever handled valve deep in the hole ("B" in some of the diagrams" and the tee with the line going up into the ceiling.
> 
> ...


I just mentioned much of what your saying. Leave well enough alone. The OP is already confused enough. His problem is 99% complete.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Nice to see you, buddy! 

First things first: When I got back my hot water yesterday and the inspector and plumber left, I headed over to my local Trader Joe's to buy 4 bottles of wine. Being the frugal guy that I am, I love their Charles Shaw line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Shaw_wine). You may know it. The bottles sell for $2.99 each and are pretty good! I had to treat myself, if you know what I mean. In fact, I'm sipping some wine as I type this post.

But in all seriousness, I have to thank you from the bottom of my heart. You, in particular, were really helpful. But I'm also grateful to everyone else who chipped in. And this gratitude also extends to those with whom I may have disagreed. This was a weird problem that I had and I was just trying to come to grips with it. If I ruffled anyone's feathers, please know that it was not intentional. 

_*What is important is what the experience with my water heater said about this wonderful forum: One can get help here because there are decent people who genuinely want to solve problems.*_

Also, this forum can be an empowering tool for the regular person out there who's dealing with a contractor. One does not need to feel as though they have no options. Rather, one can come here to get a second or even a third or even a fourth opinion. That is something to celebrate and it trumps any minor disagreements or disputes or petty and at times very funny put-downs that one may encounter while trying to solve a problem.

For an immigrant like me, this forum represents the best in America.

Having said this, I will answer the different questions and suggestions in separate posts.



AllanJ said:


> It might be time to tag or label the various pipes.
> 
> A label identifying the OP's hot water line as it passes into the neighboring basement should be placed between the green lever handled valve deep in the hole ("B" in some of the diagrams" and the tee with the line going up into the ceiling.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Rocky,

At the height of my water heater problem the plumber had advised me to put the temperature at the highest setting. But after a while I lowered it.

It will be interesting to see how my gas bill plays out in the coming months, now that my hot water pipe is no longer connected to my neighbor's cold water pipe (and assuming it remains disconnected).

Thanks for your feedback.



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> Unless you turned down the temp of your water heater, your bill must be very high and your neighbor's water/electric/hot water bill is probably lower - maybe even a *lot* lower.
> 
> Looks like the connection of your hot water output to their water heater's cold water supply is in the other owner's basement room. if so, looks like your plumber may be off the hook.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Bud,

I don't know whether you were referring to my situation or not when you mentioned the dip tube. 

In any case, when the plumbing inspector came by yesterday I mentioned the dip tube and said that the plumber had insisted that it was not the problem. I asked the inspector what should I do if it turns out that the dip tube was not good. 

The plumber then turned to the inspector and said something along these lines: He had drained the water heater and blah, blah, blah. When I say "blah," I mean to say that I cannot recall what he said exactly. 

But to get to the point, he dismissed the possibility that the dip tube was the problem and the inspector seemed to agree with him.



Bud9051 said:


> Thanks Colbyt, I sensed that from the last few posts.
> Did anyone ever look at the dip tube??
> Did the original plumber ever come back and if so what was his excuse?
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

SeniorSitizen,

Please see my previous post (the one right before this one).



SeniorSitizen said:


> To the best of my knowledge the dip tube was never actually examined. A few posts pack he had drained a few gallons from the drain valve to test for dip tube function and the water temperature never decreased as it normally would in a tank of this type. I dropped out during the piping schematic discussion. To me it seemed as if some went east some went west and some went over the *cuckoo's* nest.:biggrin2:


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The round table process can be very confusing with many offering suggestions from all directions. However it is extremely effective at digging to the bottom of some problems. I admire your courage at staying with us and it appears a final solution has surfaced and that is always the top priority.

Having a long thread carried to its end feels great for all.

Best
Bud


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Eplumber,

Funny you should ask whether this is my first hot shower since Christmas because a short while ago today I took my first real shower since December 18. 

It felt really nice not lathering up with cold water, then turning the shower valve off, then waiting for a while for the hot water, then quickly showering before the hot water ran out in a minute or less. Such had become my daily routine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all this is finally over.



TheEplumber said:


> I gotta ask-- is this your first hot shower since Christmas?:smile:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Rocky,

Right now I'm actually planning an email to send to the condo trustees with suggestions such as the one you've mentioned. 

Also, someone at one point had suggested that the pipes in my condo building should be insulated. I need to revisit that post as I think it was onto something important.

Finally, what do you mean when you say that my thread should be pinned?

Thanks.



RockyMtBeerMan said:


> All those other old valves should be replaced while he's disconnecting that pipe/valve.
> 
> Thinking this thread should be pinned as a warning to others.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

Thank you very much for your suggestion about labels (as opposed to hang tags). 

1) Do they remain stuck onto a pipe indefinitely or can they fall off?

2) Do you know where they can be bought from?

In terms of how our apartments units are numbered, they are numbered by their column in the building. For example, let's say that our street is called Elm. We have 4 columns on Elm. For example: 100 Elm, 102 Elm, 104 Elm and 106 Elm. Now within each column there are 3 condos. So the apartments will actually be 100-1, 100-2, 100-3 and 102-1, 102-2, 102-3 and so on. Is this clear to you?

Anyway, just looking for ideas to propose to our condo association trustees.

Thanks!



AllanJ said:


> It might be time to tag or label the various pipes.
> 
> A label identifying the OP's hot water line as it passes into the neighboring basement should be placed between the green lever handled valve deep in the hole ("B" in some of the diagrams" and the tee with the line going up into the ceiling.
> 
> ...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Folks,

When I got into my water heater problem my plumber advised me to adjust the heater's temperature setting to Very Hot. 

Then after a while the frugal guy in me decided to change the setting to a much lower one. I wanted to save on my gas bill. Fortunately, when I made this change I did not notice any real difference with my hot water situation. 

But now that I seem to have resolved my water heater situation, what should be my water heater's temperature setting? Where should the arrow be pointing? I need some guidance. Please see the photo below.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I am suggesting that for this dial putting it between the words "Low" and "Hot" for one person and directly on "Hot" for two persons.

If you find yourself running out of hot water then try raising it a little and seeing how things go for a week, then raise it a little more etc.

After a few years you may find that the water does not stay hot as long and then you can use a higher notch.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Allan,

I decided to put my water heater's temperature setting to Low yesterday since the setting between Low and Hot was still quite hot. 

So far Low feels fine to me. Thanks for the feedback.

I'm still planning in my mind the email I'm going to send the building in terms of what we need to do to make our plumbing run smoothly.

1) We definitely need to get pipe labels.

2) We definitely should get the old valves replaced (the ones that existed before we got the ball valves installed in 2016). 

3) Maybe we should insulation for the pipes?

4) Something else occurred to me. Yesterday I decided to check my unit's main shutoff valve. I turned it off and went back up to my unit. Sure enough, it only turned off the cold water. The hot water was still running. 

But then today I realized that if we cap off my hot water pipe from my neighbor's cold water pipe, as has been suggested on this forum and by my plumber and the inspector, my unit's shutoff valve will most likely work! 

You probably cannot visualize what I'm trying to say since my piping diagrams are not very clear (my unit's shutoff valve is on the blue pipe in my basement diagram and the blue pipe comes from the building's Main water supply in the neighboring basement). The importance of all this is that there's a good possibility that the shutoffs for the other condo units in the building actually work. 

When my shutoff failed there was fear that maybe others do not work. This is the main reason why the trustees want a plumbing company to come to our building to check things out. 

In the email I'm going to write I want the trustees to know that my hot pipe being connected to the cold one was a very unusual thing (maybe a one-time thing). And from the look of both pipes this situation has most likely been around since the building was built for the pipes do not have a new look (like the blue pipes or the ball valves that the plumber who installed the shutoffs in 2016 used). Since no one else has complained of not having hot water, it could very well be that my unit is the only one in the building that has this crossed pipes situation.

I hope the plumbing company that the trustees are going to call over will be able to easily determine which shutoffs work. It would also be great if they could answer why my hot water pipe has always been connected to my neighbor's cold water pipe. But they'll probably not know. It's just so weird that we have these crossed pipes. What purpose could they be serving?



AllanJ said:


> I am suggesting that for this dial putting it between the words "Low" and "Hot" for one person and directly on "Hot" for two persons.
> 
> If you find yourself running out of hot water then try raising it a little and seeing how things go for a week, then raise it a little more etc.
> 
> After a few years you may find that the water does not stay hot as long and then you can use a higher notch.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

I'm wondering if the other condos also have their hot water output hooked up to other cold water pipes. Maybe all the hot water was shared amongst the condos in the past and this situation is an uncorrected holdover from that?


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

It's a possibility that there was a thought to cross connect some of the piping so if someone was in dire need of a type of utility and their unit was out of service they could continue service( from another units equipment) until the utility could be repaired. Remember we' re not there. Thank GOD. Sounds like many pipes running in all kinds of directions. And there's no as built's or accurate building drawings and Building information available. A Condo Building should have a maintenance man or Engineer that has everything in master files on everything in the Building.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I recommend wrapping 2 inch wide transparent packaging tape all the around the pipe and over the label.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I'm still getting used to taking nice showers without rushing like the world is about to end. It feels really good. :smile:


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I found this video interesting and useful and want to share it with others:

Four Water Heater Tanks Cut Open - Lessons to Learn





I never drained my old water heater. God knows how it looked like inside.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Without going back and reading, have you concluded how/who opened that valve?
My theory would be the plumber as when changing a water heater it would be normal to close all pipes connected to it. Once replaced you go back and open all valves and in this case he forgot that one was closed from the start. Somewhat honest mistake because no one could have guess how this was all connected.

Just my thinking.

Bud


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Bud,

I don't think the plumber opened the valve. Why? He used the building's Main to install my water heater. In other words, he shut off water to the whole building, then he installed the valve above the hot water outlet and the other valve, above the cold water inlet. 

Also, the valve that was denying me hot water is located in the adjacent basement. I was with him when he went to that basement. All he did when he got there was to shut the Main.

I think that valve was always open and my old water heater simply managed to hide the problem. I'm not a plumber but this is what I think happened. Maybe it was more powerful than the new heater? Maybe it operated under higher temperatures, even when on low settings? 



Bud9051 said:


> Without going back and reading, have you concluded how/who opened that valve?
> My theory would be the plumber as when changing a water heater it would be normal to close all pipes connected to it. Once replaced you go back and open all valves and in this case he forgot that one was closed from the start. Somewhat honest mistake because no one could have guess how this was all connected.
> 
> Just my thinking.
> ...


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks, I'm just one of the many curious who have been following. But I'll add, when a plumber opens any pipe they will usually shut off all valves leading to the work they are doing to avoid draining the entire system and because it's very difficult to impossible to solder a pipe while water is draining out of it. It also slows them down because a trickle of water can continue for an annoying length of time. It is also doubtful your old water heater would have overcome this plumbing mistake as the cold was feeding the supply (the hot outlet) before it mixed with the hot water in the tank.

Also, the mistake would have occurred after he was done when he would have turned all valves back on.

Just speculation.

Bud


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I was with him and saw him shut off the Main only. That's the only valve I saw him touch in that basement that also had the valve that was denying me hot water.

He shut the Main so that he could install the 2 valves above my water heater. The location of the valve that was denying me hot water is at a totally different area from the Main, even though the two vales are in the same basement. And you cannot see it easily, given the storage bins, water heaters, furnaces and numerous other pipes in the place. It's actually like a maze.

When I showed him the trouble valve I could tell from his face that he had never seen it before (unless he's a great actor). The only valve he seemed aware of was the Main.

With the old heater sometimes it took a bit of time to get hot water. 

*What I want to see what kind of gas bills I get from this month onwards (the new water heater was installed on Feb. 22). Even though the AO Smith I bought is most likely much more efficient than the Allcraft that I had, the gas bills may tell me something. We'll see. I'll let you guys know.*



Bud9051 said:


> Thanks, I'm just one of the many curious who have been following. But I'll add, when a plumber opens any pipe they will usually shut off all valves leading to the work they are doing to avoid draining the entire system and because it's very difficult to impossible to solder a pipe while water is draining out of it. It also slows them down because a trickle of water can continue for an annoying length of time. It is also doubtful your old water heater would have overcome this plumbing mistake as the cold was feeding the supply (the hot outlet) before it mixed with the hot water in the tank.
> 
> Also, the mistake would have occurred after he was done when he would have turned all valves back on.
> 
> ...


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Your plumber would only have needed to turn off valve #4 (the one in your hot pipe on your side of the wall) and the cold inlet, to keep all the water from falling down from upstairs and stop the flows enough to solder the new pipes together with when he installed your new heater.

Didn't you say that some other plumber did work in the next basement at or about the same time as your new water heater was installed/? Maybe that plumber opened and closed valves somewhat haphazardly to bring about the problem at or about the same time as your new water heater was installed.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Allan,

The only other plumber who did work in my basement during anywhere close to my water heater installation was this same plumber that installed my water heater. 

He installed the water heater for my neighbor on the first floor, several months earlier. But he would not have had any reason to shut off the valve that denied me hot water (in the adjacent basement). 

Why? Because my neighbor on the first floor and the neighbor on the second floor have pipes that take a totally different route when compared to my pipes and those of my adjacent neighbor on the 3rd floor where our condo units are located. 

Also, I even doubt whether he needed to shut the building's Main when he was installing the first floor water heater, since I think my neighbor on the first floor and the neighbor on the second floor, have a working shutoff valve for their units in my basement. 

Having discovered the problem valve (the valve that denied me hot water), it's now clear why my condo unit's shutoff valve in my basement did not work. 

I don't know whether all this makes sense from the way I've explained it.



AllanJ said:


> Your plumber would only have needed to turn off valve #4 (the one in your hot pipe on your side of the wall) and the cold inlet, to keep all the water from falling down from upstairs and stop the flows enough to solder the new pipes together with when he installed your new heater.
> 
> Didn't you say that some other plumber did work in the next basement at or about the same time as your new water heater was installed/? Maybe that plumber opened and closed valves somewhat haphazardly to bring about the problem at or about the same time as your new water heater was installed.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Hi Folks,

Just got my latest gas bill and sharing it in case anyone is interested. 

To recap, I got my water heater inspected on February 22 (last month). This was also the day when I solved my water heater problem by shutting off a valve in the adjacent basement of my condo building.

The current bill runs covers February 21 to March 22 and it's for $21.70.

I called my gas company to check what the bill was for the same time last year. It was $78.87. And the year before that it was $61.80.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Now the question is, is that difference due to a more efficient new water heater or due to other building units benefiting from the crossed pipes? If other units have been benefiting from the crossed pipes then their months use should have gone up correspondingly. Now, the utility probably can't tell you what the other bill are but maybe they could compare theirs as they did yours and say whether they went up or not.

Or you could ask those neighbors.

Bud


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

Seems obvious to me:

1. It worked but the original water heater had a dripping valve that appeared "to fragile to fix."
2. A plumber showed up and installed a new water heater.
3. The customer no longer got consistent hot water. Therefore the problem is the plumber or the hot water heater.
4. The "HOT" pipe on the water heater remained hot when the customer would run out of hot water in the shower or the kitchen sink. Therefore, the hot water heater was working and the plumber had caused the problem.

Glad it got fixed.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

When one compares utility bills it is best to compare the average of 2-3 cycles. The meters are read on a 4 week cycle but the weather doesn't always follow such a predictable pattern. Meter readers also make judgement calls when reading the dials on a mechanical meter. Days in the billing cycle can also vary by 1-3 days and the cost per day is a better number to compare than the total billing.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

You have to look at the previous month bill as well. Many utilities do not read meters monthly, and every other bill is estimated. If the last bill was over estimated, the present bill would correct that. IIRC the OP also heats with gas. Is there also a gas range? Gas clothes dryer? Either way, 21 bucks is a welcome surprise.


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