# Need to rebuild outside steps and walls coming from basement



## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

Yep, does not look good. I would definitely tear it all out and start over. I doubt that what is under the steps is adequate as a base. And the walls were not braced to hold back the fill on the sides. Unless you are really good at this, it does not look like a DIY job to me.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks 'Just Bill', I appreciate your response.

Ouch! Not really what I wanted to hear.

So is that the general consensus here? I shouldn't try this on my own?

Here is the thing, I am probably going to have to do this myself whether I want to or not. I would think if I paid someone it would be at least a couple grand. Please let me know if that is not right.

Anyway, I don't have it. So I'm either going to let it go until it collapses or dig it out myself and try my best to rebuild it. 

I'm figuring I can do at least as good of a job as the last person, and that lasted at least 10 years. For all I know it lasted 30, I really don't know. 

So why shouldn't I try it? Too hard, I'll screw it up?

Or is it dangerous? 

The wall is only 2.5 - 3ft tall. I thought that was not a big deal at that height?

Any extra info would be appreciated.

Thank you very much


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

doug123 said:


> So why shouldn't I try it? Too hard, I'll screw it up?
> 
> Or is it dangerous?


No, it's not particularly dangerous. It is kind of hard work. But, no, you are not likely to screw it up IF you take the time to research foundations, back-bracing ties and supports, drainage methods, and stair building, in general.

Basically, you are going to have to educate yourself on everything you can Google about this sort of project....... and there is more than meets the eye.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Only 3' deep isn't that bad at all, I'd definitely DIY
How depends upon drainage around that area

There is a drain there, do you know where it goes ?
Walls on the sides probably did not have proper drainage
Ground froze w/water & pushed wall out...more water gets in, wall gets pushed out more

Stairs on the right, hopefully they have a footer going down deep
I'd be inclined not to touch that wall, looks OK (?)
That could be a can of worms

Do you have gutters & downspouts that directs water away from this area?
Does the ground slope away from the house ?
Any water in the basement ?
Any roof or anything over the stairs area to keep water/snow out ?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

That is a lot of bricks! The walls (both), stairs, and 5 concrete slabs should be removed. The bottom landing (3' deep and door width) should be replaced and sloped towards the drain (if it works, as Dave said). Dig down to your local frost depth, pour or form a footing, build concrete or brick (with mortar) walls, same with stairs, OR hire it out. 

Be safe, Gary


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

*More info...*

Hey, thanks for the replies everybody!

Drain - I am not positive but I used to be a laborer for a plumber and we used to dig up a lot of drains around here that were basically a terra cotta pipe going down into some sand or something like that. I am almost positive that is what is the case with this one. I think it is just a drain hole leading to nothing.

We have got water through the basement door twice in ten years. Once was just a little bit that just got a foot or so of water wet around the door. The other time was a freak rainstorm we had after 2 weeks of rain and the ground was all saturated. We had some bad water in that time but it was on the news and basically hundreds if not thousands of people had their basements flooded in that one.

So to make a long story short I don't think I need to worry as much about the water draining.

The roof of my house overhangs above it and we have fairly new gutters. So it is not like water is running off into it or anything.

Both walls are cracked near the bottom and the top part is shifting out and leaning in like they are going to fall over. The right wall does look a little straighter or better but it is still busted up.

I was going to take a weeks vacation next week and start on it. I figure I can dig it all out in a day or 2 max. Then I can see what I have and go from there. I have a big tarp I can throw over the hole. Do you think that makes sense or is that really dumb?

Maybe I should just take down one wall at a time and do it that way?

Any comments on how to start like that please?

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it...


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My main concern is that wall on the right & the 2nd set of cement steps I can see
Possibly the 2nd set of stairs is partially supported by the basement wall on the right
Hopefully the 2nd set of stairs has support going down to the footing
Do you have another pic showing more of the 2nd stairs ?

Definitely start with the left side & be ready to redo the wall on the right as soon as it is ripped out


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Here's a pictorial trip of basically the steps you may be taking. (Drainage, back-bracing and plumbing not shown.)

Footing for the brick walls could probably be a few inches wider. (I got lazy)


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

HERE is a fairly easy way to build steps if you have no stair building experience. But they end up about a quarter inch high for each riser to be legal.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Scuba_Dave said:


> My main concern is that wall on the right & the 2nd set of cement steps I can see
> Possibly the 2nd set of stairs is partially supported by the basement wall on the right
> Hopefully the 2nd set of stairs has support going down to the footing
> Do you have another pic showing more of the 2nd stairs ?
> ...


 Thanks for your concern Dave. Here are 3 more pics I just took.











I see what you are saying. I was thinking of digging over farther that way but if there is dirt underneath those steps at that level, if it comes out from underneath I guess that would be a major problem, huh? 

I'll take your advice and save that side for last.

My father-in-laws' neighbor gave me an idea, I might try a timber wall. I Googled it and found a good bit of info. I'm thinking that might be the way to go. No concrete and I think I could do it much faster. Plus it looks easier for someone doing it alone. 

I think I'm going to pull out the left side and maybe the steps. Then I'll build the left side wall. When I'm done with that, I'll probably have a better idea of everything I need, etc. I'll make sure I have everything together, then take down the right side and put up the new right wall as fast as I can. Then I might try to box in the end with lumber also. Then I'll worry about the steps.

Anyway, please let me know what you think about the steps if you see anything more with these pics.

Thanks!


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Here's a pictorial trip of basically the steps you may be taking. (Drainage, back-bracing and plumbing not shown.)
> 
> Footing for the brick walls could probably be a few inches wider. (I got lazy)


Wow, thanks for the great pics Willie T. That really helps me have a better idea what is under the dirt and what I need to do.

Thanks for the other link also on the step building. Like I said above, I think I'm going to go with lumber for the walls but I might use mason blocks for the steps the way you have in that link. Maybe I can use wood over the mason blocks somehow? Anyway, if I can box it in with the wood I'm figuring I can worry about the steps last.

I need to check out the 'sketchup' you mentioned in that other link also. I could use that for a lot of things, very nice.

Thanks again!


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Unfortunately, I have to warn you that lumber is going to have a very short lifespan compared to any kind of masonry.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I won't weigh in on what I don't know but as far as the labor aspect of digging it out, it doesn't look terribly back breaking. As already stated there is a fair amount of research you need to do about fountations and drainage. Your ieda of backfilling with gravel sounds like it would let a lot of ground water pool down alongside the wall unless there was a plan to drain it out of there. 

Not a herbologist either but that leafy vegitation on the good side looks like a thirsty breed that probably took care of a lot of the water on that side and possibly added a strong root system resulting in less damage on that side. Such an arraingement would look better on the other side than those flat rocks laying there and would probably offer similar benefit.You may be able to get away with minor shoring up and repairing on that side without a lot of tearing down and digging.

Poured concrete walls and footings sound like a better plan that timbers too. 

Are your neighbors' homes similar to your's? You might look and ask around the neighborhood for similar problems and solutions.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Unfortunately, I have to warn you that lumber is going to have a very short lifespan compared to any kind of masonry.


 Dang. I just can't win here 

How short is short? Honestly I am hoping to move in the near future. Hopefully within the next 5 years.

Do you think it would last 10 years? I'd be happy with that. 

Not to leave it for the next guy but I feel confident about using wood and not so much about using concrete.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Jim F said:


> I won't weigh in on what I don't know but as far as the labor aspect of digging it out, it doesn't look terribly back breaking. As already stated there is a fair amount of research you need to do about fountations and drainage. Your ieda of backfilling with gravel sounds like it would let a lot of ground water pool down alongside the wall unless there was a plan to drain it out of there.
> 
> Not a herbologist either but that leafy vegitation on the good side looks like a thirsty breed that probably took care of a lot of the water on that side and possibly added a strong root system resulting in less damage on that side. Such an arraingement would look better on the other side than those flat rocks laying there and would probably offer similar benefit.You may be able to get away with minor shoring up and repairing on that side without a lot of tearing down and digging.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim. As you can see my plan is pretty much changing daily so I am not thinking about the gravel anymore 

Now you are getting to something I didn't really even think of. Can I just dig behind and try to put the wall back in place? 

What is the general opinion on that?

Would I try to dig out like a shovel size amount behind the left side then push back on the wall? I know that is probably a lot of weight but maybe that would work?

Then if it doesn't I'll go with replacing it.

What do you guys think?

Jim, thanks for the idea with the plants. I think they are called hosta. When I'm done I'll find some more and plant them on the left. I agree with the water idea. They are pretty hearty and come up new like that every year since we moved in.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Scuba_Dave said:


> My main concern is that wall on the right & the 2nd set of cement steps I can see
> Possibly the 2nd set of stairs is partially supported by the basement wall on the right
> Hopefully the 2nd set of stairs has support going down to the footing
> Do you have another pic showing more of the 2nd stairs ?
> ...



Scuba_Dave - I just thought of something with those steps. They lead up to the porch you see. The floor of the porch is actually also the roof of a garage. So the whole right side (porch) you see is a garage.

I remember my neighbor telling me some time ago that the garage was added on after the house. So if you look at the pic on the right side of the stairs, you can see the house and porch/garage are separate.

So I would think the stairs go with the garage more than it does the house, know what I mean?

I'm not sure if that makes any difference with digging on that side though.

What do you think?

Thanks!


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

*Thanks!*

Thanks to everyone who has thrown their 2 cents in on this.

I don't plan on doing anything until this Tuesday so I am definitely open to all advice and suggestions.

Really, I'm just looking to get this to the point where I feel like it is not going to fall over. I'd rather jump in and try to do something now than come home from work one day and find a big pile of bricks laying there and be forced to do something about it when the time might not be as good if you know what I mean.

Thanks!


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## walkman (Jan 4, 2009)

Dude, don't try to do it with PT wood. You'll just make it harder to sell you house when it comes time. It's attached to the house so it should be done right. 

Also, why do you think it was fine for so long and then went to heck over the last 3 years? Do you think you have an extra intrusion of water, such as blocked gutters, or possibly because of the thriving plants next to the steps? You might want to address any such issues so your work lasts longer.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Doug, I'm a mason and I probably wouldn't even attempt the approach you want to take here. I would definately reccomend you look into a segmental retaining wall system for both the walls AND the steps. 

Personally, I only work with the "Versa-Lok" system, but can tell you that they have a great system for steps & sidewalls sauch as this. Far more user freindly that brick, concrete, block & mortar. I didn't notice where you were, but if you get frost, these walls need to be below the frostline if you want it to last. The SRW systems merely need a course or 2 burried, as they are intended to flex with any frost.

Other systems you may look at would be Anchor, Keystone, ummmmmm, cn't remeber anymore right now, but a quick search here of SRW's or retaining walls will give you plenty of good reading.

PS, don't skimp & buy the crap blocks at the big box stores. They don't compare to the commercial units in strength, stability & design flexibility.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

walkman said:


> Dude, don't try to do it with PT wood. You'll just make it harder to sell you house when it comes time. It's attached to the house so it should be done right.
> 
> Also, why do you think it was fine for so long and then went to heck over the last 3 years? Do you think you have an extra intrusion of water, such as blocked gutters, or possibly because of the thriving plants next to the steps? You might want to address any such issues so your work lasts longer.


Yeah, good point.

Really, it wasn't that bad but then we got record snowfalls in Pittsburgh here this winter. It was buried in snow for quite awhile and pretty much looked like that when it thawed out. It was definitely showing wear before that,but this past winter really did it in.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I couldn't find a real accurate pic pertaining to your situation, but hopefully this gives you an idea:


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> I couldn't find a real accurate pic pertaining to your situation, but hopefully this gives you an idea:
> 
> View attachment 20077


Thanks Jomama45. Now that is something I really don't know anything about. Can you give me a ballpark idea of what something like that would cost to do mine? If I did it myself I mean. $500? $5000? I really have no clue.


Thanks!


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

doug123 said:


> Thanks Jomama45. Now that is something I really don't know anything about. Can you give me a ballpark idea of what something like that would cost to do mine? If I did it myself I mean. $500? $5000? I really have no clue.
> 
> 
> Thanks!


 
I read this whole thread pretty fast, so excuse me for not knowing the actual dimensions. As I said, I'm really only familiar with the Versa-Lok, & can guarantee you that their system is very simple for a situation like this.

Off the top of my head, I'd guess $6-800 for materials, which would include the block, caps (also used as the stair treads), cap adhesive, stone & gravel, etc...

Feel free to check out the Versa-lok website. They have a lot of tech. drawings to show how it all goes together. You may have to click on the "contractor" section to find them, as well as download a fairly big file, but the tech. drawings from them are very helpful no doubt.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey, I will definitely have to check that out. 

Thanks!


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

I figured I finally better go measure this.

I might as well put the dimensions here so I can refer back to it if I need to.

The old wall is about 34" high on the right side and 72.5" long.

The left side is 32.5" high and 73.5" long.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

doug123 said:


> I figured I finally better go measure this.
> 
> I might as well put the dimensions here so I can refer back to it if I need to.
> 
> ...


Those measurements, alone, indicate there's likely a sinkage problem (often water infiltration... bad drainage, etc)


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Those measurements, alone, indicate there's likely a sinkage problem (often water infiltration... bad drainage, etc)


Thanks. 

I guess I'll know more when I dig it up.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

Wow, I just talked to my neighbor and asked him if he had any idea how old the steps and wall are. He said they have been there since before he moved in and that was over 45 years ago. I had no idea they were that old.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> I read this whole thread pretty fast, so excuse me for not knowing the actual dimensions. As I said, I'm really only familiar with the Versa-Lok, & can guarantee you that their system is very simple for a situation like this.
> 
> Off the top of my head, I'd guess $6-800 for materials, which would include the block, caps (also used as the stair treads), cap adhesive, stone & gravel, etc...
> 
> Feel free to check out the Versa-lok website. They have a lot of tech. drawings to show how it all goes together. You may have to click on the "contractor" section to find them, as well as download a fairly big file, but the tech. drawings from them are very helpful no doubt.


jomama45 - I found a versa-lok dealer actually pretty close to my house. Just got back. They were closed but they had some samples outside. Really nice, I think I am like 90% sure I am going with that.

Had a question for you if you don't mind, seems like you do this a lot.

Scuba_Dave suggested earlier that I rip out the left side wall and steps and I should leave the right side for last. 

So that is pretty much what I plan on doing.

Do you think I'd have any problem doing it that way with the versa lok?

I might even leave the right side wall up for awhile and replace it later if that is an option.

What do you think?

Thanks!!!


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

doug123 said:


> jomama45 - I found a versa-lok dealer actually pretty close to my house. Just got back. They were closed but they had some samples outside. Really nice, I think I am like 90% sure I am going with that.
> 
> Had a question for you if you don't mind, seems like you do this a lot.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would do it all right away, mostly because I would want to interlock (weave) the 3 walls together at the corners. This will create a stronger structure, & may even be easier to carry your heights through accuritely.

Make sure to spend your time educating yourself off of the installation cross-section PDF's available through Versa-lok, and this should be a fairly simple, but laborious, project.

And, work on adding a second railing on that upper staircase, not real safe how it is now with the additional drop into the basement stairwell.


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## doug123 (Apr 27, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> Personally, I would do it all right away, mostly because I would want to interlock (weave) the 3 walls together at the corners. This will create a stronger structure, & may even be easier to carry your heights through accuritely.
> 
> Make sure to spend your time educating yourself off of the installation cross-section PDF's available through Versa-lok, and this should be a fairly simple, but laborious, project.


One more thing please. I've been studying up some. Still have some more to look at but just had a question.

Once the pins are in, how hard is it to get back apart? Not that I would want to take it apart, but since this is my first time. 

Say I did something then an hour later thought, Dang! I should have done this instead. 

Can I get them back apart? 

Thanks!


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