# Girl Needs Help! Wrong Ridge Vent Hip Roof



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

You are short on exhaust but if you are going to be over balanced in one direction, better to have slightly more exhaust than intake. 

If you are worried about it, you could install some box vents if it feels like the attic isn't venting well enough.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Hey Bridgett.... Good to see you again. Did you ever do a smoke test in your attic like was recommended when you started the same thread in another forum?

That really is the FIRST thing I would do. See exactly what is happening right now, with what you've got, before changing or adding anything just for the sake of changing or adding.

Remember, air is just like water. It will take the path of least resistance. Depending on the "free area" of your ridge and soffit vents.... any ridge vent lower than your highest ridge vent, can and usually WILL, become an intake vent. Especially, the closer it is to the higher vent. 

Unless of course, like I mentioned in that other thread.... the attic area of the lower ridge vent is sectioned off creating its own attic space, with soffit vents feeding that particular ridge vent.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Yes, thank for help from across the street : ) I was hoping to get more input to decide where I am at as this dilemma is gonna fry my brain! I'm a girl left with this big money decision! BTW you were very helpful!!

I have yet to do a smoke test and have run out of time. I can see on the hot days that the hot air is coming from all ridge vents as you see the fume look coming out of them. Now, from what I understand even if was exhausting one day, wind could pick up or change direction the next day creating something all together new. So, what might be good, might not?

Even if I were to section those areas off, I am way off on exhaust

If I were to see they are all exhausting, still the theory of the 24ft on garage helping my main roof is still not plausible as hot air rises and doesn't take hot air from main roof, bring it down many feet and to the left to exhaust out the garage ridge vent...same with bump out portion. So, in essence I am still left with only 16-17ft to exhaust main house where 50% exhaust for just main portion should be approx 28ft.

So, dilemma is should I tear off due to limited exhaust and add statics to the amount needed or should I just stay with limited exhaust and increase soffit and hope I don't see eggs frying on my roof?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

You're quite welcome. And, you are absolutely right.... the lower garage ridge or the one on the bump out.... will do nothing for your main house. I mean a small portion from the main house may exhaust out those lower ridge vents, but not much I wouldn't think. 

That's where the smoke test would have been helpful. Those lower ridge vents may be drawing harder than you think they might. They certainly won't be drawing hot air down from above.... but until I can actually "see" what's going on.... it really is hard to know with 100% certainty.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

quick question, are you doing your calculations using the NFVA (net free vent area) for your specific soffit and ridge vent? Not all are created equally. But all have a listed NFVA for doing these calculations. At first glance it appears you are just using linear footage to calculate.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

When you said "Those lower ridge vents may be drawing harder than you think they might" were you referring to drawing air in or drawing hot air up and out?

So, with a hypothetical... if I were to zone off those areas leaving main roof ridge to only main house portion and it being only 16ft of ridge (30% of what is overall needed for exhaust portion) when it should have 28ft of ridge for the main house...would you still leave ridge knowing it was insufficient? I am really bumping up the soffit intake.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Yodaman I am using the NFVA. If my main roof with other portions bumping out sectioned off I would be left with approx 2160 sq ft attic space. 2160/300=7.2/2 (50%)=3.6x144=518/18 (NFVA a linear foot of ridge vent)=28.7 linear feet of ridge vent needed


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Yodaman I am using the NFVA. If my main roof with other portions bumping out sectioned off I would be left with approx 2160 sq ft attic space. 2160/300=7.2/2 (50%)=3.6x144=518/18 (NFVA a linear foot of ridge vent)=28.7 linear feet of ridge vent needed



all good here, my next question is should you be using 1 sqft/150 sq ft attic space? Generally 1/300 is reserved for older drafty houses


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Yodaman said:


> all good here, my next question is should you be using 1 sqft/150 sq ft attic space? Generally 1/300 is reserved for older drafty houses


Other way around in my opinion. A drafty home will perc more moisture into the attic and therefore need more venting.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

I am using the 1/300 rule. Home was built in 1987 and decent insulation, main great room is cathedral ceilings, I have a whole home attic fan that i need to seal off from leaks. I just went with the norm I thought when figuring using 1/300

Your earlier mentioned of being over balance in one direction vs the other...shouldn't it be that if you are going to go outside of the 50/50 rule that it be say 40/60 with the bigger on the soffit? This is the way it is stated everywhere I read. However, will not help my situation because if I block off other areas and leave main house at 2160 sq. ft. and call for 40% to be exhaust it would still need 23 linear feet or ridge vent, which I only have 16ft.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Other way around in my opinion. A drafty home will perc more moisture into the attic and therefore need more venting.


The conventional instruction is as I stated. What is your bases for reversing the conventional. Also the 40/60 split traditionally favors the soffit to reduce possibility of negative house pressure caused by poor air sealing and undersized soffit.

http://buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/PA_Crash_Course_Roof_Venting_FHB.pdf


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Yodaman said:


> The conventional instruction is as I stated. What is your bases for reversing the conventional. Also the 40/60 split traditionally favors the soffit to reduce possibility of negative house pressure caused by poor air sealing and undersized soffit.
> 
> http://buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/PA_Crash_Course_Roof_Venting_FHB.pdf


Yodaman,

Personal observation mostly. I totally get Building Science and we have been incorporating that for a while. 

I see more issues in the older homes that get closed up or modified on the venting equation than I do the newer homes. Most newer (i.e. 30 years and younger) were built with soffit and ridge in this area and as long as the roofer doesn't close them up, they work fine. Most of the newer ridge vents flow as much if not more than they old ones as well as take advantage of the baffling for more efficient use of the wind currents. 

Where I see worse issues is on the older homes. Most times they are unintentionally conditioning the attic and that is what is keeping condensation at bay. As part of a roof project, a roofer will sometimes throw a bunch of insulation up there and now you have a much colder attic that still has a ton of moisture getting into it....BOOM...my attic is raining. 

If the home is air sealed and insulated, you can get and stay nearer that 1:300 ratio. 

I agree with you on the intake vs. exhaust ratio too. I reference it in post #2.

Another thread here highlights what I think is some confusion about venting as well. 

Venting has little to do with shingle temps and is all about moisture removal. Its been proven that completely sealed attic (SPF on the deck) show only slightly higher peak sheathing temps as compared to a full vented attic. 

Moisture is the enemy here.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> You are short on exhaust but if you are going to be over balanced in one direction, better to have slightly more exhaust than intake.
> 
> If you are worried about it, you could install some box vents if it feels like the attic isn't venting well enough.



Not sure if you jumbled your words, but I disagree. Short on intake can cause negative house pressure. As the hot air exhaust and intake is short, it will pull make up air from conditioned spaces. Increasing utility cost. Obviously less so with a air sealed sealing and more so with older homes and likely no air sealing.


Your theory of needing more ventilating on older homes that have had some insulation upgrades makes perfect sense. In a sense your mimicking the characteristics of a newer home.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Jumbled my words. Good catch. Its always better to err on the side of more intake to keep stack effect at bay. Thanks for the catch.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Okay, sorry to ask again, but I am in crazy need of blunt direction. If hypothetically I did not have the bump outs (garage or room) and I was just left with main house to exhaust and the space is 2160ft which calls for 28ft of exhaust of which I only have 16ft, would you keep it and say oh well 30% will have to be enough or would you say no not enough exhaust and take out the ridge venting and put back in large static vents? Roofer willing to do whatever I want. I don't need a smoke test for this question. I also don't want to leave half and half (half ridge half static). I have sufficient soffit intake. Please free my brain!!:vs_sob:


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

If the large statics were sufficient and part of the original house design, and you know the new ridge is at least inadequate by calculation what is there to question.


IMO - I would have no problem leaving the ridge vent and adding just enough statics make up the difference.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Yodaman said:


> If the large statics were sufficient and part of the original house design, and you know the new ridge is at least inadequate by calculation what is there to question.
> 
> 
> IMO - I would have no problem leaving the ridge vent and adding just enough statics make up the difference.



So, you don't stand behind the theory that when you have ridge vent that no other static vents should exist as they will turn into intakes rather then exhausts? You were talking leaving ridge vent on main house with adding statics to the same correct?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Personally I would prefer all the exhaust vent came the ridge. But If you can't get it, IMO the next best would be to supplement it as high as possible. 

If the static vents are high on the roof, and you have good soffit vent, I don't believe there would be any issues.

Have you looked for a higher NFVA ridge that might get you to the promised land of ideal vent calculations?


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Yodaman said:


> Personally I would prefer all the exhaust vent came the ridge. But If you can't get it, IMO the next best would be to supplement it as high as possible.
> 
> If the static vents are high on the roof, and you have good soffit vent, I don't believe there would be any issues.
> 
> Have you looked for a higher NFVA ridge that might get you to the promised land of ideal vent calculations?



Actually, I never really thought about another ridge with higher NFVA. What is up there now is Lomanco omni ridge vent with inner baffle which is NFVA of 18 per linear foot. But, don't think there would be such a system that would be so greatly different to bring me the promise land lol. Thank you greatly for throwing out ideas and opinions!


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

I did residential roofing from 1979 through 2009. I took pride in staying fairly up to date on what was SOP in venting. In my area I bet not more than 10 or 15 houses in 100 have "text book" venting. Very few exhibit serious problems as long as they are in the ball park of "text book venting". 

You mentioned a great room with a cathedral ceiling. That seems like the most frightening issue you might have.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I did residential roofing from 1979 through 2009. I took pride in staying fairly up to date on what was SOP in venting. In my area I bet not more than 10 or 15 houses in 100 have "text book" venting. Very few exhibit serious problems as long as they are in the ball park of "text book venting".
> 
> You mentioned a great room with a cathedral ceiling. That seems like the most frightening issue you might have.



Thank you so much for your response. Well, maybe this thread will be of some help to others in the future and won't just be a loss of a "feared" homeowner! I felt overwhelmed being at only 30% on exhaust doubled by the fact that I also had two areas of ridge vent that were so much lower then the main ridge (no no no). I guess after reading all the "Text Books" and compiling these two sworn off issues that it overwhelmed me with "what do do's"

Yes, I have a huge great room cathedral ceiling about 24x22 is the room size and no baffles above the cathedral. Anything I should modify for that?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Yes, I have a huge great room cathedral ceiling about 24x22 is the room size and no baffles above the cathedral. Anything I should modify for that?


Your sure there are no baffles? The next obvious question is there air flow? The purpose of baffles is to facilitate air flow but they are not a necessity in every case. That is what would keep me awake at night. 

Is that area part of your square footage calculation?


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> Your sure there are no baffles? The next obvious question is there air flow? The purpose of baffles is to facilitate air flow but they are not a necessity in every case. That is what would keep me awake at night.
> 
> Is that area part of your square footage calculation?



Yes the cathedral area was put in my calculations of the square footage with respect to exhaust. My Cathedral has at the lowest point is about a foot from roof sheathing going up to say 8-10 ft from peak of cathedral to peak of roof. So there is airflow going through there and the soffit intake is cleared at those areas.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Are we sure the cathedrals are really vented or at least properly?


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> Are we sure the cathedrals are really vented or at least properly?


I think the op is describing a great room with scissor truss's. Sounds like it anyway.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

It sounds like you have a vaulted ceiling with scissor trusses rather than a cathedral ceiling? 

In any case if you want something close to "text book" you _might_ to need get rid of the ridge vent and either put 2 power vents synchronized with both thermostat and humidisat controls or a bunch-o "jumbo" vents with 144" of net free airflow each. 

I get the concern about ridge vents at differing levels. Certainly its possible that the lower ones could become intakes. 
But the second law of thermodynamics is also in play which says warm flows to cool. Your attic will always be warmer than outside air and thus the second law of thermodynamics will always be in play trying to move that warmer attic air toward that cooler outside air.

and as I suggested earlier text book venting can be a bigger headache than the payback sometimes.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Welcome to the forums!


Late to the party...

IMHO, the bump-out ridge handles that whole end if scissor trusses, just fine. The flat ridge area will vent to the closest higher ridge (3' height is minimum per code for "stack effect", you have more so I don't see a problem here as warm air rises, being pushed upward by colder soffit air.

I doubt the garage ridge would feed intake to the upper roof ridge as it is busy exhausting the garage AND there is 8' of height- stack effect again- they are both acting as exhausts. You can add turtle vents to make up the difference as they would also act as exhaust with the 24' of vertical rise from soffit to ridge on the main roof. There would be a LOT of warm air being forced out... in the 16' foot. 

Summertime the attic is vented to remove the ceiling heat flux. As soffit air enters, the main part follows to slope upward, the rest travels across the attic floor (over the insulation) picking up latent ceiling heat and forming three convective loops; one at the soffits, one in attic main area, and one at top. Do not use a unbalanced ventilation ratio, either more exhaust or (especially) more intakes (than exhaust) as this would bottle-neck the ridge and cause a much bigger convective loop there in the summertime, depositing moisture (more during summer) on the rafter/truss framing.

If the blown-in fiberglass, cover it with housewrap or a few inches of cellulose to prevent convective loops.

What did you decide on? 

Gary


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> Welcome to the forums!
> 
> 
> Late to the party...
> ...



I really appreciate the input, but I am just a girl without much roofing experience and your reply went way over my head. Since I appreciate the feedback and greatly want to understand it, could you word in a way that I could understand? Thanks :vs_worry:


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Well I had the Lomanco rep come to my house and look at situation. He agreed I did not have the "text book" exhaust with ridge vent, being I only have 30% at top ridge. He also noted the bump outs could turn into intakes being that close and fair down from main ridge and said to section areas off. He suggested I go with WhirlyBirds and I don't like that. Well, looking at my back of house and not having much room to put other stactic 135's and removing ridge vent, I decided "Who Cares" cause it is frying my brain with "What the hell do I do" so therefore I am just going to leave the 16' inadequate ridge and give up! Lomanco rep so no way to put other static vents near the ridge as will just do a whirl of in and out air between the two...so I give up!

On another note, I would like to get your guys feedback on this issue of valley cut being inches from the side of my skylight...what do ya think? I will also be adding other picture of the terrible job done elsewhere and tell me what ya think. THANKS SO MUCH!!!


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Here are other pictures of bad job. Shingles bunched up near skylights, wavy edge shingles, drip edge all messed up, does chimney look alright?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> On another note, I would like to get your guys feedback on this issue of valley cut being inches from the side of my skylight...what do ya think? I will also be adding other picture of the terrible job done elsewhere and tell me what ya think. THANKS SO MUCH!!!


I don't have a huge problem with the valley cut. There isn't a lot of option for the roofer. I blame the skylite install more than anything. I'm not a fan of a skylight that close to a valley.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

It looks like the step flashing for the skylights is holding shingles up. I always give them a little bend so they are at like 95-100 degrees instead of 90 then they don't push up like that. 
Those eve pictures look troubling as well. This is a second roof? What kind of roof was the first one?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

I would be more than mildly surprised if that chimney counter flash was cut in to the mortar which is what it should be.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I would be more than mildly surprised if that chimney counter flash was cut in to the mortar which is what it should be.



I don't know what you mean by second roof? This was a tear off an new install. This is a first story roof (ranch). What was there before the tear off was a architectural shingle as well.

The shingles are so so so tight up against every side of my skylights and thought maybe that was why they were buckling up like that. So, you think the chimney part looks okay? Here are couple other pics. Looks like they didn't know how to get anything flat! Also, they really dinged up my flashing around chimney and looks yucky. Adding this with my dilemma of inadequate ridge vent, makes me want to just tear off and do whole roof with weatherwatch only :vs_karate:


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

They also used the wrong edge metal on the eaves. They used what's called drip edge on the eaves (gutter boards) and should have used gutter apron. Drip edge has a 90 degree bend with the kick out lip at the bottom and is designed to be used on rake or gable ends. The gutter apron, is a less severe 130 degree (or so bend) so that it lays more flat and is more contoured to match the transition between gutter board and your roof slope.










Those bunched up shingles around the skylight and the cuts they made along the eaves are a travesty IMHO.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I would be more than mildly surprised if that chimney counter flash was cut in to the mortar which is what it should be.


Hey Craig.... to me that chimney counter flashing looks odd. It appears to be too thick for metal. What do you think it is???

_*Edit: *_Ok, never mind.... the latest close up pic showing the side of the chimney, I can see it's metal. But it sure didn't look like it from the above shot.

In either case, the whole chimney counter flashing is a hack job on it's BEST day. That looks just awful.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> I don't know what you mean by second roof? This was a tear off an new install. This is a first story roof (ranch). What was there before the tear off was a architectural shingle as well.
> 
> The shingles are so so so tight up against every side of my skylights and thought maybe that was why they were buckling up like that. So, you think the chimney part looks okay? Here are couple other pics. Looks like they didn't know how to get anything flat! Also, they really dinged up my flashing around chimney and looks yucky. Adding this with my dilemma of inadequate ridge vent, makes me want to just tear off and do whole roof with weatherwatch only :vs_karate:


By second roof I didn't mean second layer I just meant the house had an original roof and that's not it. And no I don't mean the chimney flashing is OK. If its cut in to the mortar then its ugly but livable If its just nailed against the brick and caulked its ugly and NOT proper procedure. Any time I've seen a flashing that looks like that its rarely cut in to the mortar.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Hey Craig.... to me that chimney counter flashing looks odd. It appears to be too thick for metal. What do you think it is???


my guess its aluminum but it was originally just stuck on with a bunch of roofing mastic. Then the second guys, instead of ripping it out and doing it right stuck a pry bar under it and tried to break the mastic seal just enough to get new steps behind it. That's what I think. Thats why it looks fat because of the tar behind it and that's why its all bent pulling it away enough for a new step.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> my guess its aluminum but it was originally just stuck on with a bunch of roofing mastic. Then the second guys, instead of ripping it out and doing it right stuck a pry bar under it and tried to break the mastic seal just enough to get new steps behind it. That's what I think. Thats why it looks fat because of the tar behind it and that's why its all bent pulling it away enough for a new step.


Yup.... that's what it looks like to me now that I saw the side picture close up that Bridgett posted. That chimney is an abomination. There is no way it's NOT going to leak after a few years. 

You can see where they creased the old chimney flashing when they bent it out of the way, then tried to bend it back down. And, to be totally honest, with hackery like that, I'll bet they didn't even put new steps under there. Just re-used what was there and shoved the shingles under the counter.

I SMH when I see stuff like that because most homeowners (through no fault of their own), just don't know any better. And total HACKS like Bridgett got, know that. I'm SMH in shame....


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

We had ever so so brief of a mentioning of new chimney counter and he priced that separately at $350, but said I didn't need it and I didn't know any better. In his bid he included drip edge around the whole house, so I don't know if this is right or wrong as many others bidded with drip edge as well. I don't know if it should be different "Apron". Should I NOT have drip edge on my style all around hip roof ranch? Should I have then remove everything around chimney and redo? THANKS GUYS!!!!


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> We had ever so so brief of a mentioning of new chimney counter and he priced that separately at $350, but said I didn't need it and I didn't know any better. In his bid he included drip edge around the whole house, so I don't know if this is right or wrong as many others bidded with drip edge as well. I don't know if it should be different "Apron". Should I NOT have drip edge on my style all around hip roof ranch? Should I have then remove everything around chimney and redo? THANKS GUYS!!!!


Bridgett.... a lot of folks use the term "Drip Edge" as a generic term. Most roofers know the difference between Drip Edge and Gutter Apron and use it correctly. Drip Edge is ABSOLUTELY the wrong edge metal to use in your application. It should be Gutter Apron.

A lot of roofers price the chimney flashing separately and tell you that you "don't really need it" because either they KNOW they are no good at it, or are just too lazy to do it. It takes time to correctly flash and counter flash a chimney and they simply don't want to mess with it.

We always do new chimney flashing and counter flashing on new roofs. It's just included in our price.

Here is a good example of counter flashing (the stuff you can see) done correctly. (picture is borrowed from the web) Yours doesn't look anything like this....










Here is the detail of how it all goes together....


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Anyone know of a roofing inspector in the St. Louis area? I am thinking that with these issues, I might want to get someone to check the things that I can not see or take pictures of, such as nailing. I noticed that a lot of wood was blown out under my eves and made comment to myself.."damn they must have used to much pressure" now I worry they might have blown through shingles? Anyways, good news is that I have not paid them one dime yet, so that is a plus for me.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

IMO, as said, the reglet (counter) flashing should not be showing any exposed caulking/sealant (or made from one piece of tin-or vertical caulking except at corners), as pictured. http://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Chimney_Flashing_Leaks.php

Have the new inspector read the whole thread... a whirlybird does not work when it's needed most- when there is no wind to help the passive system. Far as the added static vents, IMO, read last sentence; http://en.allexperts.com/q/Roofing-1598/Ridge-Gable-Vents.htm

And; http://www.finehomebuilding.com/design/qa/close-off-gable-vents.aspx

Hope it works out for you...

let us know the outcome, thanks, Gary


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Well, I just went up on my roof and what do ya know...THEY DROVE NAILS all down my 3 skylights bottom apron flashing (bottom). Who the heck leaves exposed driven nails going through my roof??? The owner came out yesterday and he states the reason the shingles are sticking up around skylights is because of bent step flashing. Two are 7 yrs old and other is 2yrs old and were installed and never touched and looked great. He states that the flashing is bent and might not be fixable... "Umm hello, your guys did it". My problem is that 2 of the skylights are Roto and no longer being made or parts. He then says the reason he thinks his guys nailed down the bottom apron of skylight was they must have been sticking up as well..."Umm then you must have done it cause was flat before you". He acts like having all these exposed nails is fine with having silicon on top and I freaked out and said "You would be fine with 18 exposed nails on your roof as long as you have silicone?". The issue now is that I have to have the shingles under the skylights replaced cause now have holes going through and bigger issue is that 2 of the skylights are discontinued and I can not purchase another flashing kit for it. He acts like there is nothing he can do. He said he would redo chimney and counter flash it into the brick, but then tells me I would have to pick out caulk and color of flashing...I didn't think till after he left "What do you mean caulk, if done right, shouldn't it be mortar?". As for ALLLLL my up and down, bent, wiggly mess of eves, he states that the D style drip edge is fine and that it just needs to be notched out as the workers didn't notch out about 50% leaving it all over the place. He told me gutter apron is junk and super thin and doesn't come in tan color. He said he personally doesn't like drip edge and homes used to never have it...and I replied "yeah, they used to not have roofing felt either"!!! This is a mess....not only am I a wreck over the exhaust issue, but now I have all these exposed nails going through my room and I have no means to replace to skylights in whole!! What a mess thrown at me! Side shot of my wiggly nailed skylight flashing!


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

you can get new step flashing because they are generic. You can make them out of coil stock.
As to exposed nails in the bottom apron caulked I don't have a problem with that in principle, every roof has a certain number of exposed nails that get caulked.

The guys appear to be hacks but I'm not going to bang on them for nails through the apron as long as they caulked them.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

as long as your on the roof I'll tell you what to look for....the stagger between courses. The thing that would be hardest to fix would be a bunch of courses with a 1 1/2"- 2" inch stagger. The only person with a new roof I ever told they couldn't save it and needed to tear it off had a bunch of those 1 and 2 inch staggers between courses. :surprise:


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> as long as your on the roof I'll tell you what to look for....the stagger between courses. The thing that would be hardest to fix would be a bunch of courses with a 1 1/2"- 2" inch stagger. The only person with a new roof I ever told they couldn't save it and needed to tear it off had a bunch of those 1 and 2 inch staggers between courses. :surprise:



Can you please explain above statement. Are you saying I myself have something wrong with something staggered 1 1/2"-2" as you can see from my pictures? Yes, I am sure if they did all this bad stuff, there must be more bad elsewhere. Also, you don't think I should make them replace my skylight skirting since it was them who decided to nail through it without talking to me? I mean, yeah you could put silicone, but why would you want to do that or why open yourself to possible issues doing so, if you didn't have to...they must have really bent it up to get shingles under cause it was fine before and flat.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Can you please explain above statement. Are you saying I myself have something wrong with something staggered 1 1/2"-2" as you can see from my pictures?


I'm not saying you do I'm saying its something to look for. 
I took one of your pictures and indicated 2 actual staggers I could identify with the arrows. The black lines I added are hypothetically poor staggers from one course to the next. That is one thing to look for. If you find them they extend all the way across the roof every meter.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Also, you don't think I should make them replace my skylight skirting since it was them who decided to nail through it without talking to me? I mean, yeah you could put silicone, but why would you want to do that or why open yourself to possible issues doing so, if you didn't have to...they must have really bent it up to get shingles under cause it was fine before and flat.


If 2 skylights are discontinued they would have to fabricate something. All I am saying is the caulked nails are not a deal killer in and of themselves. 
It seems to me like they didn't remove and re-install the flashing which is what I would try to do. Instead they pulled shingles out from under it without removing it which is what bent it all up. I think you could expect them to replace the step flashing, by dismantling the flashing kit and then reinstalling it with new steps. The shingles lifted like that could be a potential issue in a high wind driving rain. But if the bottom apron is discontinued just because there are nail holes in it doesn't mean its not functional if the nails are caulked. Then your stuck wondering if they can make another one to fix cosmetics. :vs_OMG:


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Sigh.... Bridgett, I'm sorry for all of your troubles. As to what your roofer said about gutter apron, it's simply not true. First of all, it's not "junk" and just because you "can" use drip edge along the eaves, doesn't mean you should. Here is a description of gutter apron by one of the manufacturers that is popular in this market.... Quality Edge: 
*Gutter Apron*

*A Specialized Drip Edge designed to direct water into the gutter system. Gutter Apron is installed over the roof edge and hangs in the gutter.*










As for it not being available in "tan,".... while that may be the case, most wholesale roofing distributors carry it in white, black and terratone/bronze and brown. I'd have to go back and see what color your gutters/fascia are.... but honestly, you don't really even see the gutter apron. I generally use the terratone/bronze color because it's one of those colors that go with anything.

I'm double checking into seeing if any of the flashing kits for your Roto skylights are available. I've got one of my distributors looking into it for me.... I'll let you know. But as Craig said, the can be custom bent on a brake out of colored coil stock.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I'm not saying you do I'm saying its something to look for.
> I took one of your pictures and indicated 2 actual staggers I could identify with the arrows. The black lines I added are hypothetically poor staggers from one course to the next. That is one thing to look for. If you find them they extend all the way across the roof every meter.



Okay, just because I am a girl (nice one too :biggrin2 I have to ask because I have no knowledge and am possibly being taken advantage of here..well, we know they are trying! You are saying you actually see one of these problems in the above used picture? You are saying that where you noted the issues, that those issue would continue all the way up the roof? So, what do these issue cause? Can you give me a tiny bit more detail of what to look for or should I take pictures of all my sides and post? I can not thank you guys enough for helping me....honestly THANK YOU!


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Sigh.... Bridgett, I'm sorry for all of your troubles. As to what your roofer said about gutter apron, it's simply not true. First of all, it's not "junk" and just because you "can" use drip edge along the eaves, doesn't mean you should. Here is a description of gutter apron by one of the manufacturers that is popular in this market.... Quality Edge:
> *Gutter Apron*
> 
> *A Specialized Drip Edge designed to direct water into the gutter system. Gutter Apron is installed over the roof edge and hangs in the gutter.*
> ...



THANK YOU THANK YOU for being so kind and helping me!! I really feel lost and am so thankful for the help that I have found!! I am having a gutter guy come and add new gutters to my house. The roofing guys want to take off gutters day prior to him coming and try to bend down the drip edge and notch it all our or something to get it to let my shingles lay flat and even before they decide to do anything else. They said it will work just find, but if I keep pushing to install gutter apron they will, but then have to jack up my roof to reinstall it. You are super duper helpful to look for the skylight kits for me :biggrin2:


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Okay, just because I am a girl (nice one too :biggrin2 I have to ask because I have no knowledge and am possibly being taken advantage of here..well, we know they are trying! You are saying you actually see one of these problems in the above used picture? You are saying that where you noted the issues, that those issue would continue all the way up the roof? So, what do these issue cause? Can you give me a tiny bit more detail of what to look for or should I take pictures of all my sides and post? I can not thank you guys enough for helping me....honestly THANK YOU!


Oh okay I get it now! I was on mobile reading before and missed "hypothetical", so therefore thought you actually seen a small stager for me to also look elsewhere for. I will look tomorrow now that I got it! Yanks!


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

To try to help clarify here is a badly done graphic 
The first 3 courses represent a good stagger which should be somewhere in the range of 5" to maybe 8". The 4th and 5th course represent an insufficient stagger from the course below. If any of them are in the range of less than an inch to 3 inches that can present a potential problem as water can migrate horizontally slightly. My picture looks more like bricks than shingles because shingles lap over one another but I didn't want to complicate my drawing.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

another attempt to clarify....
The vertical lines represent 2 shingles butting together. The black ones are OK the red ones are not as they are not far enough away from the ones below. 

There is a good chance this isn't an issue at all. Its just that I have seen it on occasion and given the rest of the work its worth looking to see how big a knuckleheads these guys may have been.
This is the stuff that shows up as a leak in 3 months to 3 years on New Years Eve as your opening a bottle of bubbly and a wet snow falls.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Roof company owner came out to my house. They now state we will redo chimney flashing and counter, but that they use caulk after grinding for counter...isn't that supposed to be mortar from what I have learned??? I asked if mortar caulk and they said just caulk! They used my old step flashing around skylights and are all bent up. He acted like he will bend them out to see if will go down, but stated it might happen again! Ummm should have replaced step!! He says the skylight apron must have been bent up and that is why guys nailed and nothing he can do about it now really since ROTO skylights have been out of bus long time and no new flashing kits around. Ummm should never nail into something your first not supposed to and surely if it isn't yours!! Regardless if okay to put silicone on all the nail heads, it now gives place for moisture, rust staining, silicone to come off, bad look! Now debating about having to get new custom skylights made (have to be custom since hole doesn't match Velux) since these are 10yrs old now with some small dents from hail and now all jacked up from all their bending, plus nail holes! He states that they should leave the drip edge and try to smash it down along all my eves (hip, so all eves). They said they would if I REQUIRE them to remove all D style drip edge from eves and install gutter apron but now that involves pulling up shingles to remove and reinstall. I guess I am going to leave upper ridge vent inadequate with only 16ft of ridge where as was to have 26ft and hope for best?? Input on above?????


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Input:
1. step flashing should be replaced with new steps. They can be bought or made from coil stock.
2. IMO let go of the nails in apron issue. Nailing down flashing and caulking nail heads happens often on roofs. 
....2A A brief Google suggests ROTO is not out of business its a German company but they no longer market in the USA. Whether you could get a flashing kit shipped at a reasonable price is doubtful. 
3. When I did chimney flashing I always cut in to the mortar for the flashing but I always caulked after. I don't see the caulk as a secondary precaution being an issue if they use a good quality caulk. 
4. If Velux skylights are a little smaller its not hard to reduce the hole size a bit. Much harder to make a hole bigger. What is the finished measure of your opening?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

As to the D style drip edge, that is what gets used around here 99% of the time. What we would do is hand flare it to accommodate the roof pitch. But that got done prior to nailing it down. Since 99% of homes around here have gutters you hardly see the drip edge anyway. 
It might be worth letting them try to bend it in place and see if it is an acceptable fix. But that isn't "smashing it down" that is methodically putting your fingers behind the bottom lip and gently prying it out just enough to accommodate the roof pitch. I have no doubt I could do it and you would be happy but I would have done it before the install so it was never an issue. Not sure the clowns you paid for could do it.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> Input:
> 1. step flashing should be replaced with new steps. They can be bought or made from coil stock.
> 2. IMO let go of the nails in apron issue. Nailing down flashing and caulking nail heads happens often on roofs.
> ....2A A brief Google suggests ROTO is not out of business its a German company but they no longer market in the USA. Whether you could get a flashing kit shipped at a reasonable price is doubtful.
> ...


With the fact that the Roto skylight had some top frame hail damage (minor) and adding the fact that these roofers pried up on the skylight and flashing (can actually see some side damage where they bent side lip on skylight that step goes under) and fact apron is all messed up and wavy from them bending and now nailed all over and the fact that because the shingles are so very jacked up now, needing them to restep (because they used old bent), I figured why not now change out the 9yr old skylights... they have to rework that whole area anyways! The boss kept telling me that if he redoes the step flashing with the Roto, he can't say the shingles wont look somewhat like that again! I don't have the specific measurements, but I had a skylight guy out here several months ago and on a look he stated I would have to special order a Velux to fit the Roto hole. My roofer now is saying they would have to build a custom curb for a new Velux to sit on because it is bigger. I think they are around 24x48.

Thanks for input on chimney counter. Have you ever heard/used Sikaflex for caulk? There is also mortar caulk out there. Do you grind into mortar lines (stair step) or cut brick giving straight clean line?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bridgett34 said:


> Thanks for input on chimney counter. Have you ever heard/used Sikaflex for caulk? There is also mortar caulk out there. Do you grind into mortar lines (stair step) or cut brick giving straight clean line?


My first choice is to cut stair step in the mortar. I don't like cutting in to perfectly good brick unless I have to. 
As to caulk we used a few over my 28 years but OSI Quad was the one I used mostly in the last several years. Its a good long lasting product AND my supplier carried a variety of colors. It certainly isn't the only caulk that would work. 

As to your skylights maybe replacement make sense. If I was your roofer I would say you buy the new skylights and I will install them at no cost in an effort to make you happy. But given what those guys have done to date maybe you don't want them on your roof anymore.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> My first choice is to cut stair step in the mortar. I don't like cutting in to perfectly good brick unless I have to.
> As to caulk we used a few over my 28 years but OSI Quad was the one I used mostly in the last several years. Its a good long lasting product AND my supplier carried a variety of colors. It certainly isn't the only caulk that would work.
> 
> As to your skylights maybe replacement make sense. If I was your roofer I would say you buy the new skylights and I will install them at no cost in an effort to make you happy. But given what those guys have done to date maybe you don't want them on your roof anymore.



You have been so so helpful and I can't tell ya enough, how much I appreciate it!! They said they would pay for the 3 skylights flashing kits, but the two replacement skylights I would have to pay for (only two are Roto not made anymore and no flashing kits available). The 3rd skylight will stay cause Velux (newer) and can get new flashing kit and they didn't really damage that one. Now I have to understand this curb deal and if my skylights will be up like 6-8" more off my roof! (sigh)

Thanks for the caulk tip, I thought everyone used motar and clips for the chimney counter, so I appreciate that tip that caulk is cool.

Going to have them bend out drip edge in hopes shingles will lay down :vs_OMG:

I swear I am going with a thatch roof next time around :thumbup:


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1 craig11152

You have gone above and beyond here in your analysis and willingness to help. 

True credit to the type of folks that are on here and a great contractor.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not going to add much more other then posting so I get updates. The guys are doing a heck of a job explaining how things should be done. While everyone may have their own way about doing stuff, most everyone can agree the principal is still the same.

I wanted to add, when I saw they used a flat roof lead flashing for the plumbing vent I knew it was a high quality job! Banging it down to fit the pitch and painting it took more time then to install either a sloped lead one, or these new fangled collars that the squirrels do not chew up. 
@Bridgett34 On another note, for must of us contractors it is pretty painful to see things like this happen.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

1985gt said:


> I'm not going to add much more other then posting so I get updates. The guys are doing a heck of a job explaining how things should be done. While everyone may have their own way about doing stuff, most everyone can agree the principal is still the same.
> 
> I wanted to add, when I saw they used a flat roof lead flashing for the plumbing vent I knew it was a high quality job! Banging it down to fit the pitch and painting it took more time then to install either a sloped lead one, or these new fangled collars that the squirrels do not chew up.
> @*Bridgett34* On another note, for must of us contractors it is pretty painful to see things like this happen.



Hmmm I caught the owner and salesman looking at and wiggling my lead boot and they were talking about something. Then my gutter guy stopped by and made some kind of comment, but he mumbles! I had told them that the other lead boot (have two) was badly banged up the shaft and they said it was normal, but damn is it bad. I never suspected anything from other lead boot other then the shingles was riding all the way up it. So, this is another issue where they did "such a fine job"?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Bridgett34 said:


> Hmmm I caught the owner and salesman looking at and wiggling my lead boot and they were talking about something. Then my gutter guy stopped by and made some kind of comment, but he mumbles! I had told them that the other lead boot (have two) was badly banged up the shaft and they said it was normal, but damn is it bad. I never suspected anything from other lead boot other then the shingles was riding all the way up it. So, this is another issue where they did "such a fine job"?


I would leave them for now, unless they have holes or something they would be fine, just ugly. Later down the road if you want to change them it would be pretty easy, pretty much anyone with a nail bar and a hammer can do it. There is a few other areas of the roof I'd be more concerned with.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

1985gt said:


> I would leave them for now, unless they have holes or something they would be fine, just ugly. Later down the road if you want to change them it would be pretty easy, pretty much anyone with a nail bar and a hammer can do it. There is a few other areas of the roof I'd be more concerned with.



Oh, I was just asking if they put the wrong (or not the best way) lead boots on? I would like to be in the know of everything they did tacky or half ass about this job because it not only helps me to be more knowledgeable, but also how to approach the company when speaking of their overall job. They will be pretty much redoing this whole area due to skylights and chimney, so the boots are right there. Did they use a lead boot that should have been for flat roofs and didn't use what was to be for slanted? I know my one lead boot (you can see in pic) looks like it got smashed up the shaft badly, but they said "that is normal". Are your few other areas what has been discussed already? Thanks!:smile:


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

A picture of different lead flashings, it's odd because not a lot of people use them any more, even for flat roofs unless they are a asphalt type of roof they do not use them.

For shingles any more people use these.


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Well, I got up on the roof and see this! Here are some pics of seams I noticed. Also, I new my valleys looked all lumpy and thought they did a standard closed valley, but now looks like they did some California inferior type?? Do the valleys look bad? How do these seams look? The seams are like this all over! They also filled my step flashing with caulk where it meets the dormer apron on the front of my house! I am trying to find a roofing inspector now!


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

Oh, also forgot to mention that when they took out my power vents and also my bathroom vents (dumb asses covered them up?) they put in new plywood, however they never put new hangers for the plywood! I went in attic and found my old hangers laying on the insulation!


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## Bridgett34 (Sep 14, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I'm not saying you do I'm saying its something to look for.
> I took one of your pictures and indicated 2 actual staggers I could identify with the arrows. The black lines I added are hypothetically poor staggers from one course to the next. That is one thing to look for. If you find them they extend all the way across the roof every meter.



Could you look at my second to last post on thread as I posted pictures of my staggers, etc. I posted just too pictures, but I think I have more that are even closer. Is this layout correct? Thanks!!!


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

not speaking for Craig but here is my 2 cents,
the stair step stagger is common. It is the fastest way to install across the roof.
The width of the stagger is whats most important. The Atlas shingles we installed a couple weeks ago called for 4" min. stagger. It was a similar shingle to yours, so I would expect other mgf guidelines would be similar. From here it looks like a few of your staggers are crowding 4" but couldn't say for sure without measuring.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

The staggers look live-able to me.
The caulk at the step is OK, in fact SOP as long as that step is kicking past the bottom edge of the apron. Although they could have gotten by with half the amount and made it look a little cleaner.
As to a California cut valley I have no opinion. They were not commonly used in SE Michigan what I last roofed regularly. All I would say is if a given shingle manud=manufacturer is OK with them then I would be too.


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