# Shingle Installation with F5S Standard Drip Edge



## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Shingle Installation with F5S Standard Drip Edge

I have read the discussions about whether to over hang the shingle or line up even with drip edge. I have not found a clear cut right or wrong way. However, I have not seen any discussions for when the shingle does not cover the top end of the drip edge. The drip edge of discussion has a lip that extends the roof edge ~1/2”. The previous roof had a shingle overhang about ¼” past the drip edge’s edge. The new roof was lined up just short of the edge or at best even in some places. Please see pictures below. Question for you pros: Given the photographs below, is this an expectable installation? If not, why and what are the issues this method cause long term? If this must be repaired, what is an expectable procedure for the repair?

Extra Information:
Elk starter strips were used all the around.










You can see the shingle is cut short at the top of the peak. This is throughout the roof were the shingles are trimmed.










Longer view









Photo shows edge meets the ridge cap and the ridge cap does not cover drip edge. In that cut in the drip edge is direct exposure to wood. Is there an easy fix for the ridge cap or would the entire ridge run have to be remove?










Photo shows the drip edge with old shingles removed.



Thanks for you profession opinions and suggestions.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Either a 'starter strip' or a drip edge sticking out as far or farther than the shingles will catch water. Bad. The 'roofer'? will tell you the drip edge has ridges to keep water running straight on down. Don't believe it. Water and dust will accumalate there and get the deck wet at some point.

I, personally, like running the shingles 1-1 1/4" over the shingle mold which flies in the face of some wisdom. Or, 1/2" past any drip-edge. 

In 30 years of repair and installation, I never saw a leak from either way, unless there were other issues like un-nailed edges, starters without sealer strpis, etc.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Looks like the roofers had a few drinks before they cut that edge. I've always seen the shingles overhang the drip edge by approx. 1/2".


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

tinner666 said:


> Either a 'starter strip' or a drip edge sticking out as far or farther than the shingles will catch water. Bad. The 'roofer'? will tell you the drip edge has ridges to keep water running straight on down. Don't believe it. Water and dust will accumalate there and get the deck wet at some point.


Thanks Frank,
That is exactly what I feel the contractor will say. What can say in response?
Also, how would this type of issue fixed? I want to avoid a hack that will make it worse. Would it be a major rework?
Thanks again


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I always extend the shingles at least 1/4" farther out than the drip edge metal.

Here is what can happen if you don't. I just recently had this situation occur on a roof where we did have the proper amount of overhang and I will post pictures when I get back in my office on Wednesday if you are still interested.

The water from an upper roof downspout was flowing properly, but at the one gable edge, without wind even blowing, it allowed the water to run off of the edge of the side cut off edge of the shingles and due to the cohesion tendencies, run back on the underside of the shingles until it got trapped between the shingles and the metal drip edge. 

Then it ran down the slope, until the bottom of the last piece of drip edge metal intersected with another lower section of roof, and entered through the decking at that location.

I could only imagine how severe of a leak it would have been had the metal edging been extended out farther than the shingles.

This roof I am speaking about has been on for over 1 1/2 years, and just 2-3 weeks ago, was the first time it leaked in the attic, but the HO father said he was up on the roof and was doing caulking, and he caulked the bottom edge of the drip edge metal and I think his caulking has created a back up and damming affect with the downward flow of water.

In your case, as far as what can you tell the roofing contractor:

If it is a manufacturer extended warranty, it must be installed per the specifications to meet the qualifications for the extended warranty.

If it is not a certified contractor from the manufacturer, then they still need to follow the manufacturers specifications Firstly and then if it does not address this, then the NRCA specifications secondly.

Go to their websites and print out the pages. The NRCA manual for steep slope roofing is available online when you register on their site.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks Ed,
http://www.thegreathardwarestore.com/F5S-10-White-Standard-DripEdge-p/513390.htm
I believe this link shows the drip edge used on my house.

Not sure I found the sections you were referring to or not. What I found was section 3.5.1 Starter Courses in the NRCA Roofing and Waterproofing manual – Fifth Edition. 

Not sure I read the manual correctly, but is stated: 
The lower edge or edges of the roofing material should be even with the outer edge of the perimeter metal flashing if extended drip edge flashing is used. (According to the drip edge link above, do I have the “extended drip edge flashing?”) The picture in the manual appears to show the starter and the shingle lined up together. 

Section 3.5.1 goes to say if an “L” type metal flashing or no flashing is used, extend the starter course beyond the perimeter eave and rake edges ¼” to 3/4”…... 

Does this mean the installers who installed my roof did it correctly where the (only where the) edges line up? (i.e. am I reading the manual correctly?)

The Owens Corning Instructions says:
Trim 6 ½” off rake end of first shingle. Extend 3/8” beyond rake and eves, and fasten.

In the Owens Corning manual, there is no mention what to do if a drip edge is used, but it makes common sense to me that the shingle should extend beyond the drip edge. 

Yes, I would be interested in seeing those pictures. 

For the areas that do not either line-up with or extend my drip edge, what is entailed to correct this issue? Do they replace the bottom layer, or do I have a big mess on my hands?
Thanks


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

by what it says,only the areas where the drip edge isn`t covered are all right,personally I feel capillary action will cause a problem there,we overhang 1/2" on all drip edges at rake eaves(sides),you can remove nails on the last cap,fit one under and renail it,on the rake eaves :all the rake shingle pieces would have to be removed,and have new ones cut in,with the addition of tabbed pieces where the full shingles were installed---It wouldn`t be good in NY the way it is pictured


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

"Extend 3/8” beyond rake and eves, and fasten."

In this case, the dripedges are 'the eaves and rakes. Extend past the dripedges.

When flush, capillary actions will occur. Water even wicks up under the shingles themselves as much as an inch sometimes.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

by what it says,only the areas where the drip edge isn`t covered are all right----THAT REFERRED TO THE MANUAL HE WAS READING,i WOULD NEVER DO IT THAT WAY !!


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out why the roofer just didn't use the edge of the drip edge as a guide when he cut the shingles back. 
It almost looks like maybe the crew shingled first, forgetting the drip edge, then someone realized the error and slid the drip edge in under the shingles.


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

the roofing god said:


> you can remove nails on the last cap,fit one under and renail it,on the rake eaves :all the rake shingle pieces would have to be removed,and have new ones cut in,with the addition of tabbed pieces where the full shingles were installed---It wouldn`t be good in NY the way it is pictured


It seems the cut in parts would be the easiest part, but what about the felt paper underneath? Would it be compromised?

What about the first rows that line up on the edge? How would they fix that with out ripping it all up? If they lift up the first row and slide another single row in there, won’t the nails either be compromised or in the way? Since it is the holidays, we agreed to address these issues with the contractor after the holidays and we are trying to get a list of issues that need to be resolved and what are acceptable fixes and not some hack that will make it worse. I went around looking a lot of houses and did not find one that was trimmed back like this.

The drip edge was not replaced for the re-roof. The 4 roofer companies that provided a bid all said they could not get a drip edge like the one I have. Some even said it was custom made. After the job was complete, I utilized Google to help me identify what I believe the drip edge is, hence the title of this post. The day I was home and able to watch the installers, I noticed they were not overhanging the drip edge on the starts and were it needed trimming they cut it back to far. I have no idea why they did this. When the Forman showed up, I told him my concern. I first asked him how far over the drip edge should the shingles be overhanging the drip edge. He said around 3/8” or so. I then told him we have an issue. At this point the job was a little over half done. He down played it and said they were installing it to “his companies” specifications. Anyway, we are now in this situation. This is a Lifetime “prorated” high impact roof and I believe as you do, that this is asking for issues that should not be a factor.

Thanks


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Although the commonly accepted practice is to install an overhang by at least 1/4" to 3/4", it would seem that the written instructions from the NRCA manual you referenced would allow a flush install on the eave edges.

I wouldn't. Period!

On your gable edges, you do have what they refer to as an extended drip edge, commonly refered to as an ODE, (Overhanging Drip Edge), or T-style drip edge.

This must be a geographical disparity, because the suppliers around me sell all sorts of varying edge metals for different applications.

I use a regular Gutter Apron for the eave edges and the ODE for the Gable edges and sometimes a Re=Roof Edge metal that looks like a J-Channel or C-Channel to cover up a beat up rough looking top profile of an old crown moulding.

It is not too difficult to remove the gable shingles and reinstall properly cut sections to overhang the gable edge metal in a uniform pattern.

Have that done.

For the eave edges, they at least have a leg to stand on, but I would address this also, since their could be cappilary action drawing the rain upward as Frank had suggested.

If you have Grace Ice and Water Shield on the bottom 3-6 feet of your roof, properly installed, then don't let that even give you any concern at all.

I will post the pictures by Wednesday evening.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks Ed,
Weather lock/shield is only installed in the valleys.

We have ODE on the whole house not just the gables. In places the shingles are short on the eaves by 1/16” to 1/8” also. I plan on having them address that as well. Can that be properly fixed without removing the roof? Would modifying/fixing this with out redoing it all void the warrantee?

Thanks


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

You Can Do As I Said,the Paper Is A Vapor Barrier,a Few More Holes Won`t Hurt It


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

They will have to pull the nails from at least the 2nd course of shingles and then remove and reset the 1st course of shingles by a minimal amount to either be flush with or extend past the gutter edge metal.

This will result in a slight amount of additional exposure of the first course of shingles, but that will be very minimal and should not be a concern.

Man, they caused so much extra work for themselves by not doing it correctly in the first place. What a shame that someone was trying to do the job as fast as possible instead of as correctly as possible.

On a personal note, I just checked out the discarded thread of yours on the other forum and you probably owe MdShunk an apology for your disparaging remarks towards him. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable posters on many forums I have ever seen, particularly in regards to electrical codes, but other fields as well, and was attempting to direct you towards the correct forum for your question. He contributes excessively via his post count total, due to his desire to be constructive and help others be safe and do their job performance correctly.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks Ed. I guess you are saying they can remove the nails and bend back the shingles (third row) without cracking or damaging them? What if they suggest pulling back the first row including the starter and putting weather lock under it? If they do that I suppose it would only go back a max of 5 to 6 inches.

As far as MD, that thread was removed shortly after I created it. In any event, I apologize for the derogatory comments I made to him here.


Picture of a starting edge:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

usually bottom/fascia eaves get 3/4-1" overhang past the drip edge,that drip edge is readily available at Bradco supply,allied,and at other suppliers


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

*Forgot about Wind,, FL code..*

Ed,
Have a read: http://www.floridadisaster.org/mitigation/rcmp/HRG/content/roofs/install_shingle.asp

If glued down with asphalt glue/calk as this states. Any issues?
Thanks


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

the shingles will deteriorate faster,but they won`t blow off in a storm ,which is their primary concern in florida


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

the roofing god said:


> the shingles will deteriorate faster,but they won`t blow off in a storm ,which is their primary concern in florida


How and why would the shingles deteriorate faster by gluing the eves, rakes and gables edges down?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I didn't read your link, but I suspect it refers to Florida's new code for perimeter edge shingle to be laid in a fully cemented bed of roofing cement sealant.

Shingle manufacturers will claim that the excessive roofing cement, (not glue), will react with the asphalt of the composition shingles.

Roofing cements contain solvents to make them pliable for installation purposes and the solvents will wick into the underside of the shingles and eat them away.

Per the manufacturers instructions, when it comes to using roofing cement to ensure a secure seal, they insist on only occassional dollups of roof cement from a tube be applied sporadically, just enough to maintain contact and create the seal.

Who knows what Florida's new code criteria will create when it comes to shingle warranty issues down the road. It just allows the manufacturers one more escape clause, and legitimately so, to evade their long term warranty provisions initially included.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I didn't read your link, but I suspect it refers to Florida's new code for perimeter edge shingle to be laid in a fully cemented bed of roofing cement sealant.


Yes and that is says to start shingles flush with the type of drip edged used here.


Ed the Roofer said:


> Shingle manufacturers will claim that the excessive roofing cement, (not glue), will react with the asphalt of the composition shingles.
> 
> Roofing cements contain solvents to make them pliable for installation purposes and the solvents will wick into the underside of the shingles and eat them away.


Any particular manufactures you are referring? Called OC and they stated this practice is acceptable. However they recommend an asphalt cement/*Plastic Cement *that meets ASTM D-4586 Type I or II (Asbestos Free). Not NP1 as they said they do not know anything about that product. As far as I could tell NP1 does not meet 4586. I know, they can say anything on the phone, but I did find this in the installation manual. Does this cover this issue? Note: "continuous layer"

From the installation instructions:
*(C) *Apply metal drip edge over underlayment at rake.
*Note: *Where eaves flashing is required, apply Owens Corning _WeatherLock _Underlayment or equivalent specialty eaves flashing product, or apply a continuous layer of asphalt plastic cement between the plies of underlayment at least 24" beyond the inside wall line.





Ed the Roofer said:


> Who knows what Florida's new code criteria will create when it comes to shingle warranty issues down the road. It just allows the manufacturers one more escape clause, and legitimately so, to evade their long term warranty provisions initially included.
> Ed


 
well, I think this would happen either way.. I already have seen a roof failure where insurance says it was installation, roofer says it was defective shingles, manufacture say no.. Battle goes on, at the end of the day owner out in the rain.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

*"or apply a continuous layer of asphalt plastic cement between the plies of underlayment at least 24" beyond the inside wall line."
*

That specification is so out-dated. They used to suggest that as the ice-damming prevention method. They are referring to sandwiching 2 plies of felt paper together being fully adhered to the decking. Since the advent of the Grace Ice and Water Shield products, this specificatiom has become a non-entity. As a matter of fact, on all of the tear-offs I have ever done, I have Never seen this specification done.

Regarding warranties, I wish the manufacturer would only provide one with a paid inspection by one of their quality contraol reps, say a minimum of a $ 200.00 fee and $ 10.00 per square after the minimum is bypassed.

Would that sound reasonable? Then they could not back out of the warranty due to supposed installation errors, since that should be icked up during the initial inspection.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> *"or apply a continuous layer of asphalt plastic cement between the plies of underlayment at least 24" beyond the inside wall line."*
> 
> 
> That specification is so out-dated.


Maybe, but seems to be acceptable and covered by the extended warranty.



Ed the Roofer said:


> Regarding warranties, I wish the manufacturer would only provide one with a paid inspection by one of their quality contraol reps, say a minimum of a $ 200.00 fee and $ 10.00 per square after the minimum is bypassed.
> 
> Would that sound reasonable? Then they could not back out of the warranty due to supposed installation errors, since that should be icked up during the initial inspection.
> 
> Ed


I agree totally as long as the inspector is not biased and inspects also from the roof owner prospective not just the roof installer. I wonder if an inspector would have found the things I noticed. Talked to the roofer about an inspection from a third party so I now exactly where you are coming from. Are inspections required on the hurricane coast areas? In Texas I thought it was a free service, but that may only be code related.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I was speaking of a manufacturers inspection. Either it is passed or failed, or passed as long as some remediation details are corrected.

Building inspectors are worthless.

The manufacturer actually would have more bias towards failing the installation if they had to then offer the full warranty, not labor, just materials. But that fact would actually rise the level of installations, by requiring the installers to perform correctly.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I was speaking of a manufacturers inspection. Either it is passed or failed, or passed as long as some remediation details are corrected.
> The manufacturer actually would have more bias towards failing the installation if they had to then offer the full warranty, not labor, just materials. But that fact would actually rise the level of installations, by requiring the installers to perform correctly.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed, Sounds like my roofer may have been reading your mind. I will get to that after the update.
The roofer sealed down the edges with asphalt cement and I do not know much about the effectiveness of this other than seeing the Dade County requirement. However, the asphalt cement in many places has prevented the starter shingles from laying down flush with the drip edge. The bead of cement is thick keeping it from laying down. Does this sound okay?

Second, there must have been a miscommunication because I thought he was going to remove and replace the gable ends with new shingles. What actually was done was a removal of the end pieces or in many instances just pulling them up moving the starter and replacing only a few end pieces. I almost did not get up there and inspect, but glad I did. This is what I have found:








Not nailed in. Some are lose and others have a few dabs of cement.


















Some nailed high because the shingle is torn up














I expressed my findings to the roofer. Said he would make it right. A few days ago he called and said he thought it would be a good idea to have the OC rep/inspector look at the roof and point out any issues. Sounds like a good idea. However I want to be prepared with my list and data to present to him. What do you think of the gables? What do I say if I hear: When the sun hits the roof in the spring it will seal down and those holes and tears will not mater? The sad part is they ripped up the adjacent full shingle as well when doing this repair. I have already told him I want the gables redone with new material. At least back to where there is no damaged shingles or holes and if that meant the whole gable then so be it. I also stated I want new felt and starters used. Does that sound like the right repair?


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Also, Notice the starter is in-between the shingles in this photo:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

Looks Like The Starter Is Butted To The Top Of That Shingle,you Paid For New,he Should Repair It To New,you`re Not In Dade County,that Spec Means Nothing,looks Like Crap And The Shingles Should Be Removed ,replaced With New ,w/proper 1/2" Overhang Past Drip Edge Cut With A Chalkline, Just My Opinion,what I Would Expect To Be Required Of Me ,if I Was A Sloppy Roofer Like That


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

And The Tar Issue Is They Will Bake Prematurely And Lose Granulation,and Eventually Their Weathertightedness Long Before They Normally Would


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

From the other thread it appears I fall in that 90% 
What would you expect the OC Rep/Inspector to say about the Gables and the Eaves if I show him these pictures?
Thanks


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The manufacturers rep, if he actually does come out, would likely cover his companies butt, by stating that the details shown are incorrect.

I find it unlikely that the manufacturer would send out a rep unless this contractor was one of their certified program contractors though.

If someone does actually show up, get a business card from them and make sure it is not just some flunky from the shingle supply house trying to cover his contractors butt, since that contractor supposedly would be buying alot of materials from them, he might want to protect the contractor.

Ed


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## ShortEdged (Dec 23, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> this contractor was one of their certified program contractors though.


Thanks Ed, Plan to verify :wink: .

Is a certified program contractor the same as Preferred Contractor? There seems to be a ton of them listed on OC site including the one I used.
http://www.owenscorning.com/around/locator/ProjectInfo.asp

i think I may of found my answer. They have "Preferred Pride Certified" symbol with a pink thumbs up and one for Platinum Preferred Roofing. This roofer does not have that.

Thanks


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I am sorry, but I am not familiar with OC's contractor programs, sO I can not tell you the difference between the 2 variations.

I checked out the local guys near me, and only one has the thumbs pride version, with the rest being called preferred.

Ed


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