# Sill plate, sole plate, bottom plate -- please "un"-confuse me.



## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

The more I read the more confused I'm getting.

Is this right?
*Sill plate* is PT lumber used on top of a concrete foundation on the bottom of a wall.
*Bottom plate* is standard lumber on wood on the bottom of a wall.
*Sole plate* is PT lumber on a concrete floor as used in a basement partition wall.

Is this right? Trying to get my terms straight so I can talk properly. :laughing:

Spinoff question - In a basement partition wall on concrete, would you use a bottom plate on top of a sole/sill plate? Or just nail the studs directly into the PT lumber?

Thank you.
- Dave


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I have always heard that the sole plate is the bottom plate of a wood framed wall.

sill plate is as you defined.

In a basement I'd just nail the studs into a PT plate (as long as the wall is not load bearing).


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Everything in construction has at least two names, and most have three. Sometimes they mean exactly the same thing and the differences are regional. Sometimes they have subtle differences, but often times the differences aren't well known and so the terms are used interchangeably. My advice to you is to strive to recognize what terms are used interchangeably, and then make the distinction based on context. So, if you and I were to talk about building an exterior wall on a concrete or block foundation, which of the three terms I use shouldn't matter (btw, let me throw in a fourth: mud sill). If you let it matter, you'll get frustrated, and if you go around correcting people, you'll frustrate them.

I agree with GBrackins. 99% of the time, the wall calls for a single PT 2x resting on the concrete.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

The nails need to be ACQ when nailing into pressure treated wood.
If not they will shortly rust out.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

cortell said:


> Everything in construction has at least two names, and most have three. Sometimes they mean exactly the same thing and the differences are regional. Sometimes they have subtle differences, but often times the differences aren't well known and so the terms are used interchangeably. My advice to you is to strive to recognize what terms are used interchangeably, and then make the distinction based on context. So, if you and I were to talk about building an exterior wall on a concrete or block foundation, which of the three terms I use shouldn't matter (btw, let me throw in a fourth: mud sill). If you let it matter, you'll get frustrated, and if you go around correcting people, you'll frustrate them.
> 
> I agree with GBrackins. 99% of the time, the wall calls for a single PT 2x resting on the concrete.


Great answer, thank you. So basically for my purposes of a basement dividing wall on concrete, the bottom piece of PT would be sole plate. If I called it a bottom plate, I wouldn't get crucified either? 

Regarding the nails, can I use the nails for treated throughout the whole wall, or would I need to buy another box of "regular" nails for the rest of the wall? For someone who does this all the time, that may be a waste, but, I will never go through the whole box for PT.

Just like I had to buy 3,655 x (15) gauge 3 1/2" nails because I couldn't find 1000-packs anywhere, to do my base trim. Life time supply.:laughing:


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

While we're on the subject, instead of creating a new thread (Unless you prefer I do, I will, or you can split this off...)

I'm building a non-load bearing wall under a column-supported triple 2x header. Here is a quick sketch-up. Everything look good? Studs 16" OC. Door framing is for interior French Doors. It's in a basement, rental house. Initial use will probably be for a bedroom, however may not always be so I thought having the French Doors would offer more versatility to someone who may want a more open space for XYZ.


So foam gasket, then Ramset gun (I love new tools) to attach the sole plate. 

Is my door frame & header done correctly?



Thank you!


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> Great answer, thank you. So basically for my purposes of a basement dividing wall on concrete, the bottom piece of PT would be sole plate. If I called it a bottom plate, I wouldn't get crucified either?
> 
> Regarding the nails, can I use the nails for treated throughout the whole wall, or would I need to buy another box of "regular" nails for the rest of the wall? For someone who does this all the time, that may be a waste, but, I will never go through the whole box for PT.
> 
> Just like I had to buy 3,655 x (15) gauge 3 1/2" nails because I couldn't find 1000-packs anywhere, to do my base trim. Life time supply.:laughing:


No normal person will crucify you. There are a lot of abnormal people out there. Personally, I only worry about what the normal ones think of me, and even then...:whistling2:

Yeah. For sure you can use hot dip galvanized nails in regular wood. 

I know what you mean. Same thing with cooking. Don't you hate that recipe that requires that one spice you'll probably never use again and costs $5 for the smallest quantity?


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

cortell said:


> No normal person will crucify you. There are a lot of abnormal people out there. Personally, I only worry about what the normal ones think of me, and even then...:whistling2:
> 
> Yeah. For sure you can use hot dip galvanized nails in regular wood.
> 
> I know what you mean. Same thing with cooking. Don't you hate that recipe that requires that one spice you'll probably never use again and costs $5 for the smallest quantity?


Well if they do crucify me, at least I won't have to worry about the nails rusting. :whistling2::laughing:

Yes we have so many spices (double really) because whenever the wife gets a recipe, can "never remember" if she has it at home already. How much mustard powder do we need.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> While we're on the subject, instead of creating a new thread (Unless you prefer I do, I will, or you can split this off...) [snip]


It doesn't get much simpler than that. One thing: there's really no reason for that 2x6 header (assuming the existing beam is properly sized and supported).


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Existing beam is properly supported on the columns. I was going with the header like that mainly because it's such a small gap, easier to rip and fill vs doing cripples. Not much added expense really.

Build it on the floor, put it in place, then lastly cut out the PT from the opening? (Assuming everything is reasonably level/straight).

I have a couple options. Since it's a triple-2x header (4.5"), 2x4s aren't going to work without furring them (time consuming and PITA).

1. Run full-width 2x6s. Furr the main support beam 1" (1" plywood strips above the studs?)
...........(I have HVAC ducting needing a bulkhead on the other side,
...........that may be a good or bad reason to put the extra inch on the duct side?)
2. Rip the 2x6 studs down to 4.5", custom order frame width for doors.
3. Rip the 2x6 studs down to 4.5", install door for 2x4 wall & trim out the rest.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> Existing beam is properly supported on the columns. I was going with the header like that mainly because it's such a small gap, easier to rip and fill vs doing cripples. Not much added expense really.


Yep. I figured. Just wanted to point out it's not structurally required. If there's no drywall seam over the opening, I personally would just use a 2x4 header and avoid the hassle of ripping the 2x6's, and leave out cripples. They would serve only as a nailing surface. With the drywall fastened 6"OC along the 2x4 header and the top-plate, and the two being only a few inches apart, you really don't need cripples to fasten to.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

That does make a lot of sense too. Should be adequate width for nailing trim to also.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> Build it on the floor, put it in place, then lastly cut out the PT from the opening? (Assuming everything is reasonably level/straight).
> 
> I have a couple options. Since it's a triple-2x header (4.5"), 2x4s aren't going to work without furring them (time consuming and PITA).


Yes. Cut the plate section out after erecting the wall.

I would first box up the beam with wood or drywall, then build the the 2x4 wall under it. If I wasn't too concerned with aesthetics, I might even paint the beam the same color as the walls and not bother boxing it up. Hard to say without a pic to provide important details otherwise left to our imaginations (hint, hint...)


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

sole plate, bottom plate, shoe are typically the same thing. the plate of a wall thats on the floor.

a mudsil is hte pressure treated plate that connects to the foundation wall


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

OK you asked...











Upper right room in this picture:










Existing:


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Confused. So you already have a wall there. You're replacing it with basically the same thing?


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

A "wall", you could say that. Look at that hunk though, I don't know if you'd want to keep that in place, I sure as heck don't! 

I had a very low-quality DIY'er in this house before me and I want to make it right.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

And you may need a "furnace room" to meet today's codes. 

Slip some foam board under the plate (non-pt, check locally) with a continuous bead of caulking against the concrete floor for an air/thermal/capillary break to the cold slab/earth below to protect the studs/cavity insulation; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-building-code

Egress; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...r-YVo5&sig=AHIEtbRXqPqFUGZ6B_c_33otStRi7Aff7g

Gary


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> A "wall", you could say that. Look at that hunk though, I don't know if you'd want to keep that in place, I sure as heck don't!
> 
> I had a very low-quality DIY'er in this house before me and I want to make it right.


OK. Well, the beam's surface looks to be in good enough shape where perhaps I would indeed just sand it and paint it the same color as the walls, on the beam underside and the side where it overhangs the 2x4 wall by 1/2" (3.5 studs + 1/2 drywall, against 3x1.5 beam). Now, the pictures do not show the column/beam connection. If that's unsightly, I would box the beam's underside and overhanging side and then build the wall up to the box.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Gary in WA said:


> Slip some foam board under the plate (non-pt, check locally) with a continuous bead of caulking against the concrete floor for an air/thermal/capillary break to the cold slab/earth below to protect the studs/cavity insulation;


Good call on the sealer under the plate. Embarrassed I forgot to mention that. Question, though. Isn't poly sill sealer good enough? Much easier to install--no cutting foam board into 3.5" or 5.5" wide strips, and it seems to be commonly used.

http://building.dow.com/na/en/applications/building/foundations/foundationsillplate.htm


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

So the preferred method would be to use _closed cell foam_ to provide the concrete plate barrier, and use standard lumber? The wicking up into the bottom of the studs is a great point I hadn't thought of.

Regarding the header, I would prefer to bring the drywall all the way up to the ceiling though.

I know my windows are ~34" x 34", I need to check how high they are off the ground. It's also a walk-out basement if that matters. My windows need to be replaced though down there (Well, in the whole house really but that's for a different year).


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Add shims/strapping to the beam (only top perimeter) only and use 2x6 studs/plates. 

The slab is poured on earth, with a 2' exterior perimeter (if to code- here) wide layer of foam board. Older houses = no foam board or vapor barrier under concrete slab. So you have a drywall wood framed wall absorbing heat from the HVAC ---8' x 35'? standing on a colder slab; enter conduction. Your climate location is not very severe and the ground temps will be warmer - with 6' down = warmer yet; http://www.epa.gov/athens/learn2model/part-two/onsite/ex/jne_henrys_map.html

Heat loss is worse close to the perimeter, lessening farther in room; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vIGIDQ&usg=AFQjCNGFRE18JlhiYyqfhj_I6fU2ymaUSA

The R-value if the sill sealer is about R-1, compared to 1" of XPS (r-5) or PIC (R-6.5 and a vapor barrier (capillary break, to boot); add the wood plate (R-1.25 per inch = R-2-) so total of R-3 compared to R-7 with XPS. A lot less of the wall being a "heat sink", IMHO.

Gary


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

joecaption said:


> The nails need to be ACQ when nailing into pressure treated wood.
> If not they will shortly rust out.


I looked up the costs. 
$50/2000 for the regular .131" x 3.5"
$80/2000 for galvanized .131" x 3.5"

Is there a cheap way around this versus buying both? Any way to get smaller quantities?

Can I:
A. Put down a PT plate attached to concrete, then bottom plate of wall attached to pt plate with galv (hand) nails, and air-nail the rest of the wall?
B. Use standard wood as the bottom plate on the concrete with the foam between the the bottom plate/concrete?


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> Can I:
> A. Put down a PT plate attached to concrete, then bottom plate of wall attached to pt plate with galv (hand) nails, and air-nail the rest of the wall?
> B. Use standard wood as the bottom plate on the concrete with the foam between the the bottom plate/concrete?


(a) Absolutely! I'm not sure why you think using a nail gun is important. You can frame an entire house with a hammer (though it might take you three times as long), and in fact, that's how it was done for hundreds of years.

(b) Absolutely! In fact, there was a thread recently where this was discussed. At least one well respected contributor to this chatroom believes foam and regular wood is preferable to using a PT sole plate, and his reasoning makes lots of sense to me.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Awesome. I don't want to buy an $80 box of nails. I don't think it's important, it's just that I have one and I want to use it.  

I pulled out the old door jambs today for the door between the upstairs and the basement. Drywall-2x4-misc wood jammed in there-drywall-wood paneling is how my wall is built. I'm just going to paint the paneling, extend the jamb, and call it good on this particular wall...

I'm not opening that can of worms. There is a drop ceiling attached to the wall and it will just be one problem leading to another into another.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Dave88LX said:


> Awesome. I don't want to buy an $80 box of nails.


Most places that rent nail guns also sell nails by the rack.


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