# Doing work without a permit?



## RyanD (Mar 23, 2009)

First, I know it's best to get a permit and have it checked by a professional and in no way would I ever put my family or property in jeopardy by doing work I was not comfortable doing. With that said, what's the worse case scenario for doing work without a permit and getting busted? The reason I ask is it seems my town requires permits for any electrical and plumbing work and permits can only be pulled by a certified electrician or plumber.  

So that means I can't do anything in my houses, if I want to change a light switch or install new lighting I have to pay an electrician to come in and do it? Garbage. So, needless to say I'm not going to pay the ridiculous rates they charge around here to fix some switches or install a new light so what would happen if I just do the work myself? Besides fines and such what if something goes wrong and damage is done, from what the home inspector told me insurance still has to pay it. Is this true?

Thanks.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Worst case is they make you rip it all out & hire someone to do it
They can also fine you, watch over you for any future improvements
Re-assess your house & inspect on a regular basis for assesment
And it may be that electricians will not touch the job
One poster on here has already had this problem

Inspector found out, he has to pull permits
He can't pull the electrical permit & can't find an electrican that will pull the permit & complete the work

If insurance can prove the work was done illegally they can refuse to pay any claim based on problems arising from your work. Not sure how often that happens


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Best thing you can do is support local candidates who will change the city ordinances to allow homeowners to do their own work. The money you spend on their campaign you will get back when you don't have to hire an electrician for routine stuff.

In the meanwhile do it right and you can't go wrong. But do investigate whether replacing a bad switch requires a permit. I'm having trouble believing that.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

A permit to change out devices??? That's absurd.....


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

bjbatlanta said:


> A permit to change out devices??? That's absurd.....


And 100% required by the NEC and IRC codes. You'd be SHOCKED how many _electricians_ can't properly and safely install switches and light fixtures...Let alone DIYers that have too much faith in their own abilities.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

And I must admit to "having the sparks fly" a time or two myself.....(changing a switch with the power on).


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> And 100% required by the NEC and IRC codes. You'd be SHOCKED how many _electricians_ can't properly and safely install switches and light fixtures...Let alone DIYers that have too much faith in their own abilities.


 You'd be shocked at how many DIYers are more competent than the so called pro's!

Legislation disallowing a home owner from pulling a permit, is ultimately self defeating!
This type of legislation is the result of lobbying by self serving interests.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Wildie said:


> You'd be shocked at how many DIYers are more competent than the so called pro's!
> 
> Legislation disallowing a home owner from pulling a permit, is ultimately self defeating!
> This type of legislation is the result of lobbying by self serving interests.


 
Ayuh,... Exactly...

If you Know what you're doing,... Go ahead,+ Do It....
I do,+ will continue to do so...


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Rewiring an addition or basement is one thing. Changing devices from ivory to white (changing a fixture) is another. The inspection for this type of work is kind of pointless even when permitted and done by a licensed electrician. (They can make mistakes too.) An $8.00 an hour helper could be doing much of the work and the licensed electrician isn't going back and making sure each and every connection is properly done. (And see the kctermites's comment above regarding the abilities of even LICENSED electricians.) Inspection is done at rough-in and after devices are in and covered up with switch plates (the FINAL) at least around here. There's no "in between" with the device hooked up, hanging out of the box. The inspector has no way of knowing if the wires on the device are properly attached (screws tightened properly) without pulling each one out. I can see the "thinking" behind the argument, but in the real world it ain't gonna happen. I do respect thekctermite's stance on the issue....
And I don't make it a practice of doing electrical work on OTHER people's houses.....


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

As a taxpayer, I'm paying the inspectors wages! Yes,permit fees may cover part of this, but not all!
As long as I a taxpayer purchase a permit, I should have just as much right to the inspectors services, as anybody else!
To prohibit me from this service is out and out scandalous!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Wildie said:


> You'd be shocked at how many DIYers are more competent than the so called pro's!
> Legislation disallowing a home owner from pulling a permit, is ultimately self defeating! This type of legislation is the result of lobbying by self serving interests.





Wildie said:


> As a taxpayer, I'm paying the inspectors wages! Yes,permit fees may cover part of this, but not all!
> As long as I a taxpayer purchase a permit, I should have just as much right to the inspectors services, as anybody else!
> To prohibit me from this service is out and out scandalous!


So do you start a fire at your house so you can be afforded the services of the Fire Dept? Cause a ruckus so the Police come out & you can feel like your tax dollars there are "earned" ? :laughing:

There are many services that our tax dollars go towards that we do not "get" to use. As a young adult my taxes went towards schools. I didnlt have any kids - why should I have to pay towards that? We usually do not get a big decision in where those tax dollars go

And we are afforded the Inspectors services even if its required to hire a contractor to do the work

I do agree with you, I think it's counter-productive to refuse to allow HO to work on their property. The vast majority would simply do the work anyways. Of course lots of them do the work without even considering if they need a permit or if they should get one - "They will just raise my taxes" 

Pro's are working in the clock - time counts
I take more time & double check myself. SInce I don't do it every day (usually) I like to make sure what I do is right. I also tend to put some of the $$ I save back into better materials


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

This thread confuses two separate issues. One is who can pull a permit, the other is who can do the work. I happen to live in Massachusetts, and I used to teach a course on the building code. The Massachusetts Building Code is NOT the same as the NEC or the National Gas Code, however it does adopt the NEC with some additions.

Turns out that in Massachusetts, a homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring, but not their own plumbing. You need to be a licensed plumber to perform plumbing work, but not a licensed electrician to perform electrical work ON YOUR OWN HOUSE. This does not apply to working on other people's houses, you need to be licensed in the appropriate trade to do that.

So you can perform your own electrical work. This DOES NOT MEAN you can pull a permit for the work, that is a separate issue. Section 110.5 of the MA building code states in part:

_Application for a permit shall be made by the owner or lessee of the building or structure, or agent of either._

The Town you live in may have a more restrictive building code, and could conceivably require an electrician to pull a building permit for electrical work, however that is not what the MA building code says. 

Section 110.3 of the MA building code allows for several exceptions to the need for a building permit, including construction of a single story shed or playhouse less than 120 square feet, a fence less than 6 feet tall, certain types of retaining walls, and ordinary repairs (it is not obvious what an ordinary repair is, see 110.3.4 for a definition).

So if your building inspector agrees that replacing a light fixture, or a damaged switch, or a leaky faucet is an ordinary repair, no permit required. Additions, major demolition, structural modifications etc. are not ordinary repairs.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> This thread confuses two separate issues. One is who can pull a permit, the other is who can do the work. I happen to live in Massachusetts, and I used to teach a course on the building code. The Massachusetts Building Code is NOT the same as the NEC or the National Gas Code, however it does adopt the NEC with some additions.
> 
> Turns out that in Massachusetts, a homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring, but not their own plumbing. You need to be a licensed plumber to perform plumbing work, but not a licensed electrician to perform electrical work ON YOUR OWN HOUSE. This does not apply to working on other people's houses, you need to be licensed in the appropriate trade to do that.
> 
> ...


 Your code seems to be reasonably well thought out! 
Most codes are well considered, and I for one, don't have a problem with this!
Where the problem seems to begin, is when politicians enact by-laws that take away our rights as free citizens. For the purpose of allowing a monopoly to have a corner on the market!
This is what brings out my fightin' Irish heritage!


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## Jeff DIY (Mar 30, 2009)

Just another quick question along these lines. Let's say Ryan wants to do his own electrical work. Can he then just hire an electrician to get a permit and 'check over' his work to make it legal? Does anyone know if electricians / plumbers would be willing to do this?


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

He could and maybe.....


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Jeff DIY said:


> Just another quick question along these lines. Let's say Ryan wants to do his own electrical work. Can he then just hire an electrician to get a permit and 'check over' his work to make it legal? Does anyone know if electricians / plumbers would be willing to do this?


 If a buck is to be made, there will always be someone willing to take advantage.
A few years ago, our province came out with the requirement that vehicles would have to be certified to be safe, by a licensed mechanic.
Unscrupulous mechanics made a lot of money, selling their signatures!
The province had to change this law, so that safety inspections were to be performed only by government certified inspection stations.
I would expect that 'unscrupulous' electricians would also be willing to 'sell' their signature.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 25, 2006)

Even though you are "technically" required to permit even such trivial things, you can do them as long as you have the proper knowledge, but it is best to hire a pro anytime you get into new circuits that require working in the breaker panel or plumbing that requires gas lines or addition of new drain and vent lines. Like someone said, if there is an electrical ,gas, or sewer related claim the first thing the insurance company will check if they determne that renovations have been done, is for permits and inspections. If you do any unpermitted work of substance; such as an addition, or modifications to the electrical or plumbing systems, they must be revealed on the disclosure forms when the house is listed for sale. And just because you reveal them and the buyer signs it does not completely get you off the hook for any costs the new owner incurs due to future remediation of code problems. It does not matter how many "as is, where is" clauses are there; this has been through the court system in more than one case.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I've yet to see any disclosure form in selling 3 different properties

And a permit does not matter one way or the other

The underlying issue is if you intentionally caused the damage
If you light a match & end up burning down your house by accident, do they deny the claim?

No

Usually after a fire its very hard to determine unpermitted work 
Copper pipes aren't marked with a date
I have seen some PVC that was dated
But that is date fo Mfg, not installation
Same with insulation & wire
:whistling2:


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

bjbatlanta said:


> Rewiring an addition or basement is one thing. Changing devices from ivory to white (changing a fixture) is another. The inspection for this type of work is kind of pointless even when permitted and done by a licensed electrician. (They can make mistakes too.) An $8.00 an hour helper could be doing much of the work and the licensed electrician isn't going back and making sure each and every connection is properly done. (And see the kctermites's comment above regarding the abilities of even LICENSED electricians.) Inspection is done at rough-in and after devices are in and covered up with switch plates (the FINAL) at least around here. There's no "in between" with the device hooked up, hanging out of the box. The inspector has no way of knowing if the wires on the device are properly attached (screws tightened properly) without pulling each one out. I can see the "thinking" behind the argument, but in the real world it ain't gonna happen. I do respect thekctermite's stance on the issue....
> And I don't make it a practice of doing electrical work on OTHER people's houses.....


Right, rough wiring is done at a rough-in inspection if the scope of work dictates, and the fixtures of course aren't installed. But at final an inspector is negligent if at least a portion of the fixtures are not pulled loose to check for proper grounding/bonding of the fixtures themselves as well as the mounting hickey. It is _incredibly common_ for me to find lights mounted on walls that either don't have electrical boxes behind them at all, and if they do they're not bonded to the ECG.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Wildie said:


> You'd be shocked at how many DIYers are more competent than the so called pro's!
> 
> Legislation disallowing a home owner from pulling a permit, is ultimately self defeating!
> This type of legislation is the result of lobbying by self serving interests.


No, I wouldn't be shocked. I look at peoples' work for a living. :yes:

I totally agree about the BS rules in some areas that prevent people from doing their own work and forcing them to either sidestep the rules or pay for an electrician. Two words....Union influence.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

As to the original post:
*Real Consequences:* my former neighbor needed to sell his house. It was a five bed room, three and 1/2 baths. He did un-permitted work on one of the baths, bed room, and family room. *No* real estate agents would 'list' the un-permitted work so his real estate listing was for a four bedroom, 2 and 1/2 bath, with 600 fewer square feet. Losing money when you sell your house $$$ = real consequences. :no:

*Real benefits:* when we refinanced our house we had a private appraisal. We were able to include an additional 270 square feet and another room because of my permitted work (the appraiser asked to see my permits). Value of our house went up = better mortgage rate! :yes:


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Possible hijack - question for any bankers out there:

Mortgage company requires proof of current homeowner's insurance.

What if: 
- for some reason homeowner's insurance drops HOer (file a big claim, hurricane hits, whatever reason: they find out about illegal work - whatever).
- No other HOers insurance company will write a policy b/c of being dropped.

Can the bank call a loan due because of the lack of home owners insurance?

Could you lose your house because of your un-permitted work?


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## PirateKatz (Sep 10, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> As to the original post:
> *Real Consequences:* my former neighbor needed to sell his house. It was a five bed room, three and 1/2 baths. He did un-permitted work on one of the baths, bed room, and family room. *No* real estate agents would 'list' the un-permitted work so his real estate listing was for a four bedroom, 2 and 1/2 bath, with 600 fewer square feet. Losing money when you sell your house $$$ = real consequences. :no:


Just out of curiosity... How did the real estate agent even realize that the work was recent and not original to the house? Did he add additional rooms, so it didn't match up with what the assessor's office had on file?


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## ratherbefishin' (Jun 16, 2007)

PK, the seller's agent pulls up the property description from city/county before listing it, unless he/she is totally incompetent. Usually pretty obvious if the number of rooms and square footage of heated and cooled doesn't match.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

ratherbefishin' said:


> PK, the seller's agent pulls up the property description from city/county before listing it, unless he/she is totally incompetent. Usually pretty obvious if the number of rooms and square footage of heated and cooled doesn't match.


Every real estate agent I've ever talked to wants to calculate square footage themselves. Square feet calculated - property description = potential problem for the real estate agent.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Any Real Estate Agent that would try to detract from my house listing for sale would be booted. 
The Real Esatate Agent WORKS for YOU!!


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## fenceguru1 (Mar 27, 2008)

*I agree!*



bjbatlanta said:


> A permit to change out devices??? That's absurd.....


If even changing a light switch requires a permit, that's taking it a bit far! 

Good luck!
Fenceguru1
LINK REMOVED


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## RichardM (Apr 14, 2009)

*Agreed--some things any homeowner can and should be able to do themselves*

However
I live in Lancaster, Pa and here they just dont care...permits naaaah
license not required nor enforced for some it seems 
Only for city jobs and those unfortunate enough to be targeted by the city
My neighbor has had an entire house remodeled and rewired ---no junction boxes---old knob and tube taped in free air to romex
Wrong size wiring (14 with 20 amp breakers) Shoddy work Wires sticking aimlessly out of load center!
No one cares here as she (neighbor) hired some guy she met at her bar she tends to do all work for cheap or free as he needed a room to stay at
Thus, he can call himself a resident and hence does not even need to pull a permit

The other year he was there and I smelled smoke
This year he is rewiring the place with nary a clue
but nothing I can do but hope and pray my house doesnt go up as well in case of a fire since we are attached properties!

City doesnt care--no permits pulled--no inspections done
EVER!

There is a reason for laws in most cities concerning permits and inspections and such! It saves lives and they know work is properly performed safely! Not saying homeowners can't do it but my neighbor just wants things done as cheaply as possible to sell the place
Who cares if work is done properly or not--she doesnt live there anymore so she certainly doesnt care!

Feeling unsafe in Lancaster, PA

Rick


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## brokenknee (Dec 13, 2008)

In MN non permitted work only needs to be disclosed on the disclosure papers the seller fills out when listing the property. If non permitted work was done by a prior owner and they are not aware of it, they would not be held liable for the work. If they lied on the disclosures, that is another matter all together. The disclosure forms must be filled out by the property owner. The square footage and number of rooms are what they are. 

Fiduciary responsibilities of the agent are to the person they represent; in this case the seller.


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