# establishing property line



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Possible to go over the obstacles with lazer? If plants, tall stake to mark the point, same on trees, fences or walls are already stable. I think this is an unspoken rule, but as a curtesy to the neighbor, you're supposed to stay a foot away from the property line. This is because your neighbor may have own survey that contradicts yours.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Step one. 
Knock on the neighbors door, Ask them if they have any objections to you doing the work that you want to do.

Then agree on a plan that pleases both of you.

And in my county there is a fire department law that there should not be any obstacles within 10 feet of a property line, so that a fire truck can gain access if there should be a disaster that needs them to attend.

So whatever the obstacle you speak of would be a cause for a hefty fine in my county.


ED


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> i have the pins located. i want to mark the property line between them, for a future fence . there is an obstacle in the way, so a straight line will not work.
> i also cannot measure out, say 5', then run a straight line = again obstacles.
> 
> is there some method to do this ?
> ...


are there obstacles 1 foot out? 3 feet? 10? 20?


how large is the obstacle? what is the obstacle? If the obstacle is in the way what do you plan on doing regarding installing the fence?


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I think the OPS question is how to establish a line when there is an obstacle in the way of the line. The standard procedure is to establish a parallel, offset line in an area where there is no obstacle. For example, if you establish a parallel line 30 feet west of the required line, you can establish points along the parallel line (known as an offset baseline), then transfer the point by establishing a line perpendicular to the offet baseline, and measuring 30 feet to the east.

Now this is easier said than done. Surveyors do this all the time, but of course they have instruments that can swing any angle required, and various sophisticated devices to measure distance. You probably don't have a transit laying about, so establishing an offset baseline would be more difficult. You can do it using the pythagorean theorem to establish a right angle, but with obstructions in the way this can be cumbersome. Maybe best to rent a transit, but of course you have to know how to use one. Maybe your neighbor has some experience with a transit or similar instrument, certainly the most accurate way to do what you want.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I think the OPS question is how to establish a line when there is an obstacle in the way of the line.



yes, that is exactly what he said but he also said this:



> i also cannot measure out, say 5', then run a straight line = again obstacles.


now I cannot imagine a situation where there is no point where a parallel line could not me constructed but it does appear that is what fix'n it has stated.

that is why I started in with asking what the obstacle is and what is the intent regarding the fence since the obstacle would make it impossible to place the fence on the line, or given the fact there is an obstacle in the way in any straight line, is the intent to remove some obstacle or weave the fence through the various obstacles. That information might allow somebody to create a method that would allow fix'n it to determine the property line.


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## Davejss (May 14, 2012)

Rent or borrow a transit, place it over one of your pins using a plumb bob, shoot the line to your last pin. Now walk along your line and when you get to an obstacle measure off of your line and drop a pin. Now you'll have a reference mark to measure from. Repeat as needed.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Davejss said:


> shoot the line to your last pin.


that appears to be the problem; there is no line of sight to the other pin


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## MushCreek (Aug 10, 2012)

I have that problem at my place. One property line is 700' long- in dense woods! I don't know how you would mark it with traditional surveying tools. You'd have dozens of offset baselines (or take a chainsaw to a number of trees).


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I always build my fence cleanly on my property so that I can legally spray anything my neighbor allows to grow in my fence row.

The simple solution is to shop around for a reasonably priced, registered surveyor who has the tools an knowledge to locate as many points along that line as you need to establish a clean line. In the absence of a clean line of sight, anything else is just your opinion and not worth much if and when you wind up in court.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

carpdad said:


> Possible to go over the obstacles with lazer? If plants, tall stake to mark the point, same on trees, fences or walls are already stable. I think this is an unspoken rule, but as a curtesy to the neighbor, you're supposed to stay a foot away from the property line. This is because your neighbor may have own survey that contradicts yours.


i am going to take a look and see if this can work. i may be able to go out 1 1/2' if i trim some trees. and take posts. 
my neighbor in question is not the one who is courteous, this is partly to go against him , in court, i win, no doubt. we are allowed to put a fence right on the line, though i would stay a few " off.



nap said:


> that is why I started in with asking what the obstacle is and what is the intent regarding the fence since the obstacle would make it impossible to place the fence on the line, or given the fact there is an obstacle in the way in any straight line, is the intent to remove some obstacle or weave the fence through the various obstacles. That information might allow somebody to create a method that would allow fix'n it to determine the property line.


its a structure and trees/plants. yes, i want to get him to trim it over, 12" or so. i can call the city, but i am afraid that they would make him take it all down(structures 5' off property line)= then i would have to look at his ugly ass and all his junk.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

these are my issues. 

1 & 2. his hut is about 6" onto my property (code is 5' from line for structures).
if he put it even with the side of his house = that would be great. he was told me he knows his ac is all the way on my property, but i don't much care about that. 

3. you can see the pvc that i placed over the pin the other day. so he can see it REAL GOOD :laughing:

4. that fence, it used to be about 1' from the drive down to right next to the tree trunks. i moved it, when he wasn't home. but his new GF saw me doing it (the look on her face was funny). when he got home, he started **** with me. well, i slapped that down real quick. and i asked him to move it.

as you can see, no line of sight anywhere. 

i have a survey from when my garage was built in 09.

i want to put a fence, so i don't see his junk as much. then trim out the vegetation up to about 8' ( not the trees trunks). to make that area larger. it feels closed in now.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Sometimes we have to pick these fights cause some people deserve them.

Cover your tushy cause this will at least get filed. It may not make it to court but some people are slow learners.

When we went through this, we:
*Got a survey and had the surveyor document the encroachments
* Sent a copy of that survey and a polite letter via registered mail asking for relief
* No reply. Lawyer time. He insisted on sending the letter again.
* No reply. He sent one more letter.
* No reply.
* Suit filed
* The neighbor moved the fence two days after the Constable served the papers
* We dismissed and ate the legal fees.

On a per square foot basis it was some of the most expensive land I ever acquired.  But my wife still savors that victory.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

yeah, but i don't have to do all that, and wouldn't. the last resort is to call the city. they would 'lay the smack down'. but, i don't want him to move it 6'. just 1' would be fine. 
i actually like it, kinda (would be better if there were a field or something there)


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> i am going to take a look and see if this can work. i may be able to go out 1 1/2' if i trim some trees. and take posts.
> my neighbor in question is not the one who is courteous, this is partly to go against him , in court, i win, no doubt. we are allowed to put a fence right on the line, though i would stay a few " off.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, as far as plants go: what grows across the line is yours to deal with. You cannot cut back a tree so much that it would kill it. If there is a tree ON the line it is a jointly owned tree so neither can do anything other than trim what is on their side (without so much as to kill it) but neither can remove the tree without the permission from the other party.

If there is a small tree in the way you can tie it off and pull it aside enough to have the line of site. If there is a large tree it becomes more difficult. Squaring around the tree is how it is typically done but since you cannot actually establish the line, that makes it more difficult and susceptible to error. Surveyors are trained to deal with such issues and they have the equipment to deal with it so they can overcome such issues without too much issue. 




> 1 & 2. his hut is about 6" onto my property (code is 5' from line for structures).
> if he put it even with the side of his house = that would be great. he was told me he knows his ac is all the way on my property, but i don't much care about that.


you NEED to care about that. If you do not address the issue within certain time limits, eventually you cannot make him move it off your property. I would suggest a license. That is simply a written agreement that he is allowed to leave the AC on your land but he acknowledges that it is your property and you do have the right to rescind the license at any time you desire. Otherwise it can become a prescriptive easement or even worse, you could lose title to the land through adverse possession. A simple action now prevents a lot of problems later.

the city is not likely to do anything without a recent survey to prove where the line is. They are not surveyors and they do not have the right to be legal arbiters in such an issue. If they are doing their job properly they would either defer action and allow you and the neighbor to hash it out in court or if it came down to it and they felt there is a violation, they can sue the person they believe is in violation. A court can order a survey to be performed and if the person is in violation of ordinances, it is likely the cost of the survey would be charged to them.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

@nap Some or all of that may be true in MI. Most of it is not true here so I think we should be clear that the laws of Adverse Possession and local code enforcement do vary from state to state.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Colbyt said:


> @nap Some or all of that may be true in MI. Most of it is not true here so I think we should be clear that the laws of Adverse Possession and local code enforcement do vary from state to state.



Please tell me which of my statements do not apply to Kentucky. While my statements are quite general they do apply to just about every state in the country. There are variations in the time lines and some specific requirements in some states but in general prescriptive easements and adverse possession are a concern in almost every state.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I think nap pointed out a very valid concern. I bought a house once and quickly noticed the city's fence (path and park next to my house) was significantly on my property. Turns out, if I would have let the fence be there a few more years, city would have had the right to leave it there.

A $70 consultation with a lawyer could be a good investment to tell you exactly where you stand.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

re: adverse possession in Illinois:



> In Illinois, the duration of such possession is seven (7) years when made under color of title and twenty (20) years otherwise. Illinois Code §735-5/13 through 101, 107, 109, 110.


re: prescriptive easement in Illinois



> In Illinois, the period of adverse use must be at least twenty (20) years. This type of easement does not arise if the owner of the servient estate posts a conspicuous notice on the real estate stating that the use of it is permitted and subject to his/her control. Illinois Code §735-5/13-122.


if you want something more descriptive, ask. 

the sign mentioned in the statement regarding prescriptive easement is granting a license as I suggested. You can do it with an ugly sign which covers everybody or you can do it with a letter on an individual basis.

and re: Kentucky

prescriptive easement:



> In Kentucky, the period of adverse use must be at least seven (7) years if held under patent and fifteen (15) years otherwise. Kentucky Code §413.050.


adverse possession:



> In Kentucky, the duration of such possession is seven (7) years if held under patent from the state and fifteen (15) years otherwise. Kentucky Code §413.010, .050, .060.


the requirements for AP are exclusive use adverse to the owners intent, open and notorious for the requisite period of time. Prescriptive easement is the same except for the exclusive part.

to the local code enforcement issue:

sure each board is going to do things "their way" but most of them will not get into the middle of a civil (not civil as in nice but civil as in not criminal) disagreement between neighbors. They will let the neighbors spend their own money to fight it out. When it comes to encroachments most boards I have dealt with or heard of will not push the issue on their own but only on the complaint of a neighbor. They then play this little game where they expect the comlainant to prove there is an encroachment by providing a survey, at the homeowners expense of course.

I have seen a few instances where the township board has taken it upon themselves to determine there is a violation but what they usually do in those situations are issue a citation and let the owner cited defend the citation which usually requires they obtain an survey, at their cost of course.

the homeowner would have been smart by saying; no, it is not a violation but if you believe it is; prove it. The board can either hire a survey or plan on losing the suit. If everybody recalls; it is the state's obligation to prove their case. It is not a defendant's obligation they have not committed the violation. If the state cannot prove their case, they lose.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm am relying on the advice of a member of the KY Bar Association and not what I read on the Internet. One might be able to make a case when rural land is involved but the laws regarding platted subdivision make it virtually impossible in Urban areas.

Open, visible and hostile intent to possess is a very tough thing to prove which one must do to gain legal title in the Commonwealth of KY.

Structures that violate local ordinances do not require a complaint for code enforcement to take action. They often deal with them on a proactive basis. Most routine stuff is complaint drive.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Colbyt said:


> I'm am relying on the advice of a member of the KY Bar Association and not what I read on the Internet. One might be able to make a case when rural land is involved but the laws regarding platted subdivision make it virtually impossible in Urban areas.
> 
> Open, visible and hostile intent to possess is a very tough thing to prove which one must do to gain legal title in the Commonwealth of KY.
> 
> Structures that violate local ordinances do not require a complaint for code enforcement to take action. They often deal with them on a proactive basis. Most routine stuff is complaint drive.


well, it appears your member of the KY bar is incorrect. Chase the statutes listed in what I gave you. Do you want case law? I can likely find a few dozen cases if you would care to read them.


and no, open, visible and hostile (which does not mean aggressive but simply adverse to the owners intent) is not difficult to prove when there is an air conditioning condenser setting there and if a permit was pulled it will date when it was installed. You do realize that in fix'n it's situation there is open notorious and adverse possession and he has even acknowledged that the neighbors condenser is on his property. 

as far as code complaint: we are talking about issues that affect a neighbor but may not be clearly a code violation but hey, whatever.

and we were talking about prescriptive easement too which does not mean the possessor takes title to the land.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Someones survey is wrong, because that building is too close for code anywhere. Hire a registered surveyor and perfect your title before it is an issue, like you wanting to sell.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

I appreciate that it can be frustrating when a bunch of random people on the internet tell you they think you're making a mistake. But there is a reason they're all saying this is a problem.

Hey, it's your property; if you don't mind risking losing a chunk of it, having trouble getting a mortgage refinancing, risking liability your insurer might not cover when some idiot hurts himself on one of your neighbor's structures on your property, and risking having a title company or bank refuse to approve the purchase of the property when you go to sell it, causing the buyer's financing to fall through, it's entirely up to you.

Please, don't rely on the internet for legal advice, even when it is more right than the bar member you were talking to, who may not have looked at adverse possession since law school. Rely on it to tell you enough that you need to talk to a *different* bar member for a second opinion. Probably someone who has experience with real estate closings in your area and *preferably* someone who has litigated adverse possession before.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> Someones survey is wrong, because that building is too close for code anywhere. Hire a registered surveyor and perfect your title before it is an issue, like you wanting to sell.


^^That^^

Building a house right on the property line? That is a no no even in Louisiana.

For once I agree with NAP about the adverse possession. 

You really need to confirm those property lines.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

while there are places that have what is called a zero lot line where you can build right to the property line, fix'n it's locale doesn't look typical for such as well as the fact he specifically states there is a 5' set off required when building.

and is fix'n its garage 5 feet off that line the other way? Hard to tell but it does look pretty tight to me.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Tscarborough said:


> Someones survey is wrong, because that building is too close for code anywhere. Hire a registered surveyor and perfect your title before it is an issue, like you wanting to sell.


no, it is not wrong. who knows the real story. but "back in the day" someone made a mistake and built many houses on my block right next to the line. or for some reason they did it on purpose, who knows. but, it has been "gransfathered in".
my good neighbor on the other side has NO usable left side yard. my house is not as old as theirs and they built it in the proper location per the property lines, kinda.

when my garage was built in 09. they got a garage company to build it, $13,500, driveway was $3500 iirc. they got all surveys and permits. and i have them all. my garage is 5' off that property line. though, when i bought the place, that wire fence was right next to the garage. when i discovered this i got to work moving it to where you see.


on a side note. i have in my possession about 1 1/2' or more of my good neighbors property. the now gone old garage was built over the line, slab is still there, with a fence and gate. the old driveway is gone,. but i cut the grass. in the back yard, whomever put the fence 1 1/2' off the line to their side.. they have told us "we don;t care". but, i have no plans what so ever to take claim to this land, even if they gave it to us. and, they are more than welcome to take it back any time they want. 


aannyywwaayy
i am looking for an opportunity to talk the the issue neighbor. but i don't see him around much these days.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I would look up the term, "Adverse Possession"., if I were you. You need to make clear this person is using your land without permission.
If you allow him to continue using your land, it can become, "his" land over time through, Adverse Possession.
Friend of mine had this issue with his neighbor. Wooded plot of land and this guy cleared out a section and built a shed and a play unit. Turned out he was over the property line by 24 feet. Even after a survey was done and this guy was notified, he ignored the survey.
It took going to Court to get this guy to remove the structures.
My friend has since put up a fence to separate the plots.
Failure to fix the issue can be problematic if one of you tries to sell your property.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i just knocked on his door, no answer. they have many cars, so i can't go by that.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> i just knocked on his door, no answer. they have many cars, so i can't go by that.


This isn't that type of informal notification. This is a registered letter with a return receipt type of notification. This you keep on file along with your survey so you have recourse later on when you or he sells the house and a dispute arises.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> This isn't that type of informal notification. This is a registered letter with a return receipt type of notification. This you keep on file along with your survey so you have recourse later on when you or he sells the house and a dispute arises.


If he isn't going to move his stuff, Consult Lawyer. Consult Lawyer. Consult Lawyer. 

A letter like that won't necessarily protect you come sale time.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Tom738 said:


> If he isn't going to move his stuff, Consult Lawyer. Consult Lawyer. Consult Lawyer.
> 
> A letter like that won't necessarily protect you come sale time.


If you write a letter saying you know he's on your land and he has temporary permission to do so, he(the neighbor) can't take possession of the land through Adverse Possession.
This is not what I would do. I would inform him that he was on my property and that I wanted the offending structures removed within 30 days. If he didn't, I would take him to court and have the property line set back to where it belonged. He would also be paying Court costs.
I sense the OP, from his posts, will not be doing that.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Sounds like their is some sharing and give and take of property throughout the neighborhood going back to the original subdivision construction of houses on or very near the property lines. 

Since OP is using property that is not his and is not entirely opposed to the neighbor doing the same it would be a mistake to get lawyers and courts involved. This is a situation where men sit and chat and come up with an agreement that both are happy with. Just talk to the neighbor in a friendly way, acknowledge that lot line set backs are screwed up throughout the neighborhood and work out a deal where he keeps his AC and shed where it is, and you get to make whatever changes you want.

Though I must say I would leave the vegetation because it's hiding what you describe as an unpleasant view.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

jogr said:


> Sounds like their is some sharing and give and take of property throughout the neighborhood going back to the original subdivision construction of houses on or very near the property lines.
> 
> Since OP is using property that is not his and is not entirely opposed to the neighbor doing the same it would be a mistake to get lawyers and courts involved. This is a situation where men sit and chat and come up with an agreement that both are happy with. Just talk to the neighbor in a friendly way, acknowledge that lot line set backs are screwed up throughout the neighborhood and work out a deal where he keeps his AC and shed where it is, and you get to make whatever changes you want.
> 
> Though I must say I would leave the vegetation because it's hiding what you describe as an unpleasant view.


Even if you're just "speaking as men do," so-to-speak, you want to make sure that whatever you agree to is going to be effective down the road if one of you dies in an accident and his family wants to sell his house and they can't because there's this crazy-ass informal adverse possession problem that makes nobody want to touch it. Getting a lawyer doesn't have to mean fighting--sometimes it's just about making sure that an agreement you make really does protect you under the law, rather than just sounding sensible and being something that would protect you in a perfect world.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Tom738 said:


> Even if you're just "speaking as men do," so-to-speak, you want to make sure that whatever you agree to is going to be effective down the road if one of you dies in an accident and his family wants to sell his house and they can't because there's this crazy-ass informal adverse possession problem that makes nobody want to touch it. Getting a lawyer doesn't have to mean fighting--sometimes it's just about making sure that an agreement you make really does protect you under the law, rather than just sounding sensible and being something that would protect you in a perfect world.


As Tom said, any agreement made now will have nothing to do with a homebuyer that's stepping into this situation.
I would never buy a house with some "willy nilly" property line. Any real estate lawyer worth his salt would make the potential buyer aware of the situation and advise corrections or pass on the house.
As a house buyer, I always got ahold of the property survey to check for myself. As well as any home improvements made to the property without permits.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

jogr said:


> Sounds like their is some sharing and give and take of property throughout the neighborhood going back to the original subdivision construction of houses on or very near the property lines.
> 
> Since OP is using property that is not his and is not entirely opposed to the neighbor doing the same it would be a mistake to get lawyers and courts involved. This is a situation where men sit and chat and come up with an agreement that both are happy with. Just talk to the neighbor in a friendly way, acknowledge that lot line set backs are screwed up throughout the neighborhood and work out a deal where he keeps his AC and shed where it is, and you get to make whatever changes you want.
> 
> Though I must say I would leave the vegetation because it's hiding what you describe as an unpleasant view.


this is it. except. its not a shed, its a bar/deck. and it is the problem, it must be trimmed back.

the vegitation. i will be putting a fence. then i will trim vegetation all the way back and up about 7'. then some nice landscaping.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

update

i finally talked to the guy.

i nicely told him he needed to trim back the bar/deck. at first he was kinda ok with it. but then he started making excuses and accusations. saying "its ok because thats the way it was" "its ok because thats the way he bought the house. and get this, he started blaming it on me :laughing:
i said " so you think its ok to steal other peoples property ?" he said i should go back to where i used to live :yes:, me = :laughing:. 

then he started calling me names, :laughing:. this is what some people do when they don;t get their way. i told him to go F himself and to get all his junk off my property, or my chain saw would do it for him (no, not really).

i went inside, took a shower, talked to a friend that saw most of this.
then went outside to have a beer. about 45mins had passed.
then up comes a cop. he asked me to go talk to the other cop, that talked to the PUD HEAD. of course i did. the cop was very professional, just listened to what i had to say. asked why i just didn't call the city, i said "i wanted to settle this man to man. he said ok, understandable. 
i then went back to have my evening beers :thumbup:

oh yeah. 
pud head, asked me how long does he have to do this ? 5-10 years ? " :laughing::laughing::laughing: can you believe this guy.
i said "months". 
he also said it was "my" responsibility to mark the line so he knows where to go. you know the answer to that. and he knows where it is, he told me so himself (2 years ago)... but i did start to clear away the brush, so i can mark the line for when i get around to the fence. 

anyway we'll see how this pans out.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Thank you for keeping this updated.

I was thinking a few days ago what kind of developments had occurred on it.

Get yourself a little pocket camera with sound, for the next time you speak with the DIMBULB as you will need things like that when you all end up in court.


ED


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Check both state law and any local ordinances before recording anything. Illinois did have some of the most restrictive laws regarding recording conversations. Just make sure whatever you do with your recorder is legal before you do it.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Ron6519 said:


> If he didn't, I would take him to court and have the property line set back to where it belonged. He would also be paying Court costs.
> .


What makes a you believe the neighbor would pay court costs? Unless statute allows for it, no, he would not be paying court costs (but admittedly I did it research the germaine statutes). Generally speaking both parties in a suit are responsible for their own legal fees as well as any court costs involved.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> update
> 
> i finally talked to the guy.
> 
> ...


I would probably pick a number of months, put it in writing, and offer to split the cost of a surveyor to get an accurate line. But your call.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

if i recorded, i couldn't legally do anything with it. sides, i am going to make an effort to not talk to him ever again.

i doubt i would have to take him to court. once i inform the city, he is busted. while i do not "know", i believe they would have him take at least 6' off. not the 1' i asked for. 
no structure within 5' of the property line, though there are a few exceptions, his doesn't apply.

Tom. i do have a survey. and he knows it. and he knows where the property line is, he told me so himself. he is just trying to intimidate me, so he doesn't have to move it. 


on top of this. he has a dead tree in him back yard. this tree is kinda large, and it is leaning towards my garage. i had my insurance agent come over and look at it. he said i had to send him a registered letter stating that if he does not remove the tree, and it damages my property. my insurance would take care of me, then go after his insurance. i really doubt he will do anything with this. even though i had a dead tree that was close to his house, i had it taken down. 

oh. another thing the asshat said = your garage is to close to the property line (his imaginary line) and that i have to take it down. AND that my garage didn't have permits = i have the paperwork. it was $13,500 in 09.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

If he is threatening you with any kind of physical damage, either personal or property, you sure can do something with a tape of it.

I am not an attorney, so consult your attorney on the matter.

ED


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

from:

http://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/orders/docs/CANWETAPE.pdf



In Illinois, an eavesdropping device cannot be used to record or
overhear a conversation without the consent of all parties to the conversation.
720 Ill. Compiled Stat. Ann. 5/14-1, -2. An eavesdropping
device is defined as anything used to hear or record a conversation,
even if the conversation is conducted in person.
In addition, it is illegal to disclose information one knows or should
have known was obtained with an eavesdropping device. Violations of
the eavesdropping law are punishable as felonies, with first offenses
categorized as lesser felonies than subsequent offenses. 720 Ill. Compiled
Stat. Ann. 5/14-4. Civil liability for actual and punitive damages
is authorized as well. 720 Ill. Compiled Stat. Ann. 5/14-6. However,
not disclosing the contents of the illegally obtained communication
is an affirmative defense to the charge.
Standard radio scanners are not eavesdropping devices, according
to a 1990 decision from an intermediate appellate court. Illinois
v. Wilson, 554 N.E.2d 545 (Ill. App. Ct. 1990). A camera is not an
eavesdropping device. Cassidy v. ABC, 377 N.E. 2d 126 (Ill. App. Ct.
1978).
It is also illegal for any person to “videotape, photograph, or film
another person without that person’s consent in a restroom, tanning
bed or tanning salon, locker room, changing room or hotel bedroom,”
or in their residence without their consent. 720 Ill. Compiled Stat.
Ann. 5/26-4(a).
The eavesdropping provisions do not prohibit private citizens from
electronically recording the proceedings of any meeting subject to the
Open Meetings Act.
Under Illinois law, when communications with individuals acting
as agents or representatives of a company are taped in violation of the
Illinois eavesdropping statute, claims under the eavesdropping statute
belong to the company. International Profit Associates, Inc. v. Paisola,
461 F.Supp.2d 672 (N.D. Ill. 2006).

____________________________________


if there is no expectancy of privacy the laws do not apply but if a conversation is undertaken with the intent to avoid others from hearing it there is an expectation of privacy. 

In other words; if the guy is speaking loudly enough so that the neighborhood can hear him, he has no expectation of privacy. If he is speaking in a subdued voice such that his intent is to speak without others other than to whom he is speaking, there is an expectation of privacy. 

take special note of the part that says a violation of the law is a felony.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> If he is threatening you with any kind of physical damage, either personal or property, you sure can do something with a tape of it.
> 
> I am not an attorney, so on the matter.
> 
> ED


i don't think he is THAT dumb. but time will tell. HOPEFULLY he will jusst realize i am not going to give up, fix the issue and be done with it. 
i'm not holding my breath. i think this will turn into a legal fight.

"consult your attorney" ?  :laughing: your confusing me with someone who has money.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

thanx nap :thumbsup:

i'm not going to record anything. though i have thought i should have my camera ready, on video, for my wife to get evidence if he should ever attack me.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

update

i went to the building dept. inspector was gone for the day. but i talking to the secretary.
she said they don't enforce property lines. i would have to sue him. but this doesn't make sense. as if one got a permit, how could the permit be valid is the structure does not fit the 5' from property line rule ? perhaps she was wrong, idk. i am going to try calling the BI tomorrow and see what he says. and if it turns out that they don't enforce this most basic of rules, then wtf are they good for.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Take a deep breath and a few shots of whiskey. You began with fairly good attitude but building up to some frustrations. 
The building department is just another employee with 401k-i'm mixing up the plans, I'm sure. They can act like they have authority to you, but they live by specific rules and don't have the legal means outside of their job - in a way, that is the way I want them to stay.
Only a lawyer and a court can do this job for you. Find a lawyer with lowest retainer. Get a survey. With these two, the law can enforce your property rights.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

carpdad said:


> Take a deep breath and a few shots of whiskey. You began with fairly good attitude but building up to some frustrations.
> 
> 
> The building department is just another employee with 401k-i'm mixing up the plans, I'm sure. They can act like they have authority to you, but they live by specific rules and don't have the legal means outside of their job - in a way, that is the way I want them to stay.
> ...


are beers ok ? if so, i'm covered :yes: :thumbup:
but yeah, i was pretty bummed when she told me that. a sense of helplessness.
but i do tend to overreact sometime.


i thought about it, and from the BI's point of view, its a "he said she said" thing.
but the thing is, its not a "he said she said" thing. i have a professional survey. and the pins are still there, now highly marked. 

sure, i can, and may need to, get a lawyer. but now we are talking $$$$ to buy something i already paid for = :furious: 
i ain't made out of money


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

It might be the best money that you ever had to spend though.

I recently had to hire an attorney over a stupid traffic citation. 

The other party and the issuing officer did not show up in court, So I won the case, although I had to pay $1,500 for an attorney that did nothing but show up with me. 

Which further irked me. But I still proved my point that the other party was to blame for this little bump, not I. 


ED


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the problem:

making a municipality enforce a rule

start with suing them (the city) seeking a writ of mandemus requiring they enforce the ordinances in place. Of course, even if you are successful, how quickly they take to enforce the matter or even worse, if they take an application for a variance to allow the issue to remain and seriously consider it.


In other words, requiring them to enforce the rules can be very difficult to impossible.

Another problem; you cannot enforce the setback rule so it would do no good to sue to attempt to enforce it. 

Now, the one thing you can enforce or control is the actual property line but unless the neighbor is actually encroaching unto your property, there is no trespass so, if the guy is on your property, sue to demand he remove the encroachment. Otherwise it is the city's place to enforce setback rules and getting them to do anything may require you to sue them.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

nap said:


> the problem:
> 
> making a municipality enforce a rule
> 
> ...



EXACTLY. i can sue till the cows come home. but it makes no difference if its not enforced. 

not only is he over on my side of the line, by code, his structure should be nearly 6' back from where it is.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

"or even worse, if they take an application for a variance to allow the issue to remain and seriously consider it."

if they did this, it would be aiding and abetting . but would that matter to them, who knows.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> "or even worse, if they take an application for a variance to allow the issue to remain and seriously consider it."
> 
> if they did this, it would be aiding and abetting . but would that matter to them, who knows.


Aiding and abetting what? We are talking about civil matters. On top of that municipalities are allowed to issue variances and do with regularity. As long as the rules in place are followed there is nothing improper with doing so.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> EXACTLY. i can sue till the cows come home. but it makes no difference if its not enforced.
> 
> not only is he over on my side of the line, by code, his structure should be nearly 6' back from where it is.


Anything actually on your side of the line is something you can and will have to deal with. It is a trespass (civil, not criminal). 

To requiring the city to enforce their rules and ordinances; it can be done but realistically in your situation it would probably not result in what you want but even with that speaking with an attorney in your locality that is familiar with the political climate and likely responses of the courts is not a bad idea.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

nap said:


> Anything actually on your side of the line is something you can and will have to deal with. It is a trespass (civil, not criminal).
> 
> To requiring the city to enforce their rules and ordinances; it can be done but realistically in your situation it would probably not result in what you want but even with that speaking with an attorney in your locality that is familiar with the political climate and likely responses of the courts is not a bad idea.


This.

Local politics are... well, local.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

I seem to remember reading something about, if a neighbors fence or driveway is over a line for a certain number of years, and not challenged, it becomes his property, anyone know anything about that???


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Canarywood1 said:


> I seem to remember reading something about, if a neighbors fence or driveway is over a line for a certain number of years, and not challenged, it becomes his property, anyone know anything about that???



Yes. There are two related but different issues involve.

1. easement by prescription (prescriptive easement)

2 adverse possession 


In the first, a person gains the right to continue doing what they have been doing on anothers land if they meet the requirements of the law

in the second, the possessor can actually gain title to the land.

adverse possession: in Illinois the period of exclusive, notorious, and adverse possession not under color of title is 20 years of continuous use

prescriptive easement is also 20 years


If challenged the possessor must establish their claim in court. It is not fun for either party and is generally expensive.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

nap said:


> Aiding and abetting what? We are talking about civil matters. On top of that municipalities are allowed to issue variances and do with regularity. As long as the rules in place are followed there is nothing improper with doing so.


so, stealing of ones land is not a crime, per say ? and if the city allowed him to steal it, to the point of taking it from me and giving it to him, thats not a crime ?

why hell, i'l just build my fence 5' over on his side of the line.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

As mentioned several times in this thread, you need to talk to a lawyer. Its not like this is your state's first property line dispute. Lawyer probably sees this on an almost daily basis. I know this is a DIY forum, but sometimes its best to talk to a professional.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> so, stealing of ones land is not a crime, per say ? and if the city allowed him to steal it, to the point of taking it from me and giving it to him, thats not a crime ?
> 
> why hell, i'l just build my fence 5' over on his side of the line.


Actually in this type of situation you would be correct. You have to commit a crime (trespass) for 20 years to be able to make the claim but you would be correct. 

The reason it itself is not a crime is it is considered more the the possessor is claiming abandoned property. States figure if you did nothing in 20 years to claim your land then apparently you don't really care what happens to it.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

nap said:


> Actually in this type of situation you would be correct. You have to commit a crime (trespass) for 20 years to be able to make the claim but you would be correct.
> 
> The reason it itself is not a crime is it is considered more the the possessor is claiming abandoned property. *States figure if you did nothing in 20 years to claim your land then apparently you don't really care what happens to it.*


That is exactly why adverse possession exists. Where we hear about the battles is when family inherits the property and want it back.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

BTW....I wouldn't give him months....give him weeks.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

ddawg16 said:


> BTW....I wouldn't give him months....give him weeks.


its already been weeks. i know he isn't going to do anything about it because i said so. he will wait till he has no other choice, the law says to.

if it was legal to do so, i would cut it off with my chain saw. then throw it in my fire pit .:laughing:

i have been wondering. do "I" actually legally own that portion of the structure ?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Fix'n it said:


> i have been wondering. do "I" actually legally own that portion of the structure ?


well, I can show you (if I can find them) a couple cases where in a similar situation the person in your situation did in fact cut the building along the property line. One wasn't actually that long ago. 

I would not suggest that though,. Those people had already been through court and the court did enter an order given notice to the location of the property line.
correction: in the more recent one the guy had not been to court first but the court did find in his favor:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_28249383/judge-rules-favor-iron-range-man-who-sawed

Now, just because I showed you this, don't go and get any crazy ideas. I know we would all love to do things like this but in reality, more often than not, it would not work out so nicely for the guy doing the cutting.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

nah. even if i legally could. i wouldn't, at least for now. i don't have the time.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Send him a bill for 'renting' your land. Back date it to when you told him to remove his stuff.

This gives him a choice....pay you rent...or move it. The longer he takes to move it, the more the bill adds up....and gives you something tangible in small claims court.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

ddawg16 said:


> Send him a bill for 'renting' your land. Back date it to when you told him to remove his stuff.
> 
> This gives him a choice....pay you rent...or move it. The longer he takes to move it, the more the bill adds up....and gives you something tangible in small claims court.


while it may work as a threat, you cannot unilaterally impose a rental agreement, especially while back dating it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Since this building is on your property, install a basketball hoop on it, and invite all the neighborhood kids to use it anytime that they want to.

A week of the constant bang, swish, bang, rattle. 

and the jerk will be moving his stuff far away from your line.

ED


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

update

i am back to this. yep, i am a bit of a procrastinator ain't i :vs_frown:
some habits are never broken. 

the hammer is about to fall. i hope it doesn't cost me any grief and especially money. but, within reason i am going to do whatever i legally can to cause him as many problems as i can. and i am going to get the city to do it for me. that is if they actually do do something = i don't take things for granted.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh. a refresher. i couldn't establish an exact property line because i had bushes and stuff in the way. and OUTHOUSE's (his new nickname) deck/hut. i have the foliage out of the way. and i have a fishing line run down the side, 12" in from the property line. his hut is 1" at one end, and about 3" the other end (about 20') away from my fishing line.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i now have a permit for my new fence,listing the encroachment. i have notified the city, no response yet. and i am working on getting legal advice.

he must be getting nervous now. as my new fence is slowly marching its way to his hut.
and i have the permit in my window facing his house.


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## cjm94 (Sep 25, 2011)

Bolt the fence right to his shed...save you 20 feet of fence.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

cjm94 said:


> Bolt the fence right to his shed...save you 20 feet of fence.


yes, i could. but it is also, if not "mostly" a legal and financial issue.
when i go to sell this place, and i will unless i die before then. a buyer can find out about the encroachment and either walk or offer a lot less.

and, when he does move it over, IF he keeps it the same, i plan to do just that.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

UPDATE

the city BI called the house today, talked to my wife. 

she said he said that he was going to look into his permit, of which i 99.99999999% know he didn't get. and as such will make him move his deck structure. :vs_karate: !!!
what exactly that means and results in, time will tell. he said his action will start in a few weeks, as they are busy right now. i am waiting my turn, and thats just fine. and how long they give OUTHOUSE to do whatever it is he does, idk. 

so, stay tuned for the real action, should be interesting.

btw. the BI's parents are neighbors of mine, i have talked to them.
i have always known that he has been keeping an eye on me.
he said that he really likes how i have improved my property :vs_cool:


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

That is good news.

It is always a good idea to keep in good terms with your neighbors, especially when they have pull with the city government.

If the BI's parents like you they will influence things to your benefit. 

But if asked I do not know anything about politics.

ED


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> That is good news.
> 
> It is always a good idea to keep in good terms with your neighbors, especially when they have pull with the city government.
> 
> If the BI's parents like you they will influence things to your benefit.


yep

that is a good idea no matter who they are. but, as we know, that doesn't happen sometimes. specialy these days.

true. but i have no idea whether or not they like me. but, they do like my good neighbor. and we are good friends with this good neighbor.


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## choti (Apr 21, 2016)

to be true i have no ideas for the same as i have never done such kind of things in my past but i'll suggest you to take help of a professional for this , do not take risk for this.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i'm not sure, i couldn't see what they were doing. but they where working on it, i think he has started moving it. stay tuned.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

he was not then notified, as i assumed he was. so i think he was working to improve the deck.

i got this from the city today, via their notification system.

"4/28/2016 9:03:58 AM
[City of #(^#$^]: Violation notice sent to owner of 1234 1234th Street on 4/28/16 via regular and certified mail (as required by ordinance). Will pursue the immediate removal of the deck and junk in yard. "

he had, doesn't any more, a bunch of 4x8ish metal panels laying about his yard.

now, what " immediate removal of the deck" entails, idk. it could be just the encroachment. or the whole think.

so, what happens now, good and/or bad, we will see.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

not sure, but it looks like he just started doing whatever he is going to do.
if so, pics soon.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

he gutted the bar area under the roof, and did this. he was at it most of the day, off & on.
what exactly was taking so long, idk.
well, at least its progress, but in the right direction , idk.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

You ask "what took so long"?

He had to do something with the bar stock, and some people need a nap after imbibing that stuff.

:devil3::devil3::devil3:

ED


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i kinda feel sorrry for the guy. i WOULDN'T want to be in that situation. 

but, perhaps he has a plan (that i like = another big wall). 
or he is just over reacting. he is salvaging the wood.
anyway.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

It's a shame that he did not consult with you before encroaching into your property.

This is the price he pays for ASSUMING that you did not mind losing a few feet of yard. 

It appears to have been built solid, He might be planning on rebuilding on his side where he should have in the first place.


ED


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> It's a shame that he did not consult with you before encroaching into your property.
> 
> This is the price he pays for ASSUMING that you did not mind losing a few feet of yard.
> 
> ...


yeah, but when he was building it, i didn't "know" where the property line was.
at that time, there was a el-cheapo fence that ran from the side of my garage(about 4 1/2' on my side of the line) down next to the stand of trees, which was about 3'ish on my side of the line.
once i realized this, i moved the cheap fence over. but his deck was done by then. that is about when i started notifying him. 

yeah. we all ASSume things. i really try not to. 

yeah, it looks solid enough. and i REALLY REALLY hope he rebuilds something with a tall wall (at least), and that looks decent.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Plant a Mountain Ash tree right beside his new deck.

Those things are ugly and weep tons of junk.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

jlhaslip said:


> Plant a Mountain Ash tree right beside his new deck.
> 
> Those things are ugly and weep tons of junk.


i googled those, they look nice to me.

anyway. unless he pulls some kind of chit on me, i am going to leave him be.

update:
he has all of the posts down. and the area next to the jacuzzi is down to the ground.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

update

he has gone back 5' from the property line. so, bout 6' all together. and he has started rebuilding. there are some new posts up, and i see a bunch of rafters in the yard.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

he is now building. and this time it looks like it is actually going to look nice !

he even asked me what color roofing. he wanted galvanize(cost). but i said "its your house, do what you want. but, if i had a choice, i would want some kind of color.
right now, as i type, he is installing a metal roof. what did you call it ? K-metal ?
and its FREAK'N brown ! YAHOO !!! 

pics later.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Buy the guy an expensive bottle of booze. Might be the best investment you ever made. And don't forget to complement him on whatever he ends up building.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Galvanized sheet roofing accumulates a lot of heat in it's natural color, the brown will reflect some of the heat away, so it will be a better choice. 

I grew up living in a house with galvanized, (asphalt in West Texas just melts away). And it was very hot inside all summer. One day the old man came home with 5 gallons of BLUE car paint that he "found", painted the roof bright blue, So we had a white house with a BLUE ROOF. 

Maybe you and the neighbor will become buds.:devil3:


ED


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Had a house/neighbor next to a large building I was on and wasn't sure what his thoughts were. There had been some boundary issues before I bought the property. I found out he liked Twisted Tea so showed up at his door with a case. Better than hiring a security service.

Bud


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

SPS-1 said:


> Buy the guy an expensive bottle of booze. Might be the best investment you ever made.
> 
> And don't forget to complement him on whatever he ends up building.


fat chance. he should be buying me the booze.

i already have = "that could turn out real nice". trying to push him in that direction.

he alos said he was getting new siding. this would be great, unless its white.
he knows i don't like white houses. and i got the impression that it wasn't going to be white.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh. i let him pull his truck up my drive to the back of his house.
he lifted the hot tub up and backed under it. its now gone.

the pic, it was getting dark. but so far i like what he is doing.
even if his rafters are not straight. it could be fudged to look good.

those are the 3 sections of fence i put up this weekend.
1 more section and i will be done until i see what he does. and i told him so.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 31, 2016)

I get discouraged sometimes with this site as there should be people using the search function before posting new topic, but started reading this thread and love it. Thanks and keep us updated!

I have a neighbor, can barely see his house, we live in the country. I was putting up new fence on area to get more pasture area for my horses. He comes up to me and asks me to not put the fence up because his grandkids ride their dirt bikes from the road up this back area and he likes them riding there. I explain the entire area from road to this fence is my property and I can fence for my animals. Then he gets pissed, asks where property line was and I show him, had it surveyed the year before, and he doesn't believe me. I explain that I am actually 6' inside of the property line, wide enough for me to use my Brushcat on my Bobcat to trim that side of the fence. 

I also explain that by our county ordinances, any fence in agricultural land, can be put on fence line and each property owner is responsible for 1/2 of the costs. I tell him I want the fence for my animals and was going to pay for it all but we could discuss that. He walked away extremely pissed off. So about a month later, this ****head, cuts down several beautiful pine trees on my property (inside the 6'), drops them and leaves them. He states that they were blocking his view! The nerve of some people. Now this thread has me wondering if I should move that fence right back to property line to make sure he doesnt try and claim it. I have 26 acres and he has 5, so kind of a good gain for him as that would be ALOT of land at 6' x several hundred feet, shoot maybe a thousand feet. All timber and have never measured it before. 

Anyway, thanks for all the info in this thread


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## bondra76 (Apr 21, 2016)

brhokel606 said:


> He walked away extremely pissed off. So about a month later, this ****head, cuts down several beautiful pine trees on my property (inside the 6'), drops them and leaves them. He states that they were blocking his view! The nerve of some people. Now this thread has me wondering if I should move that fence right back to property line to make sure he doesnt try and claim it. I have 26 acres and he has 5, so kind of a good gain for him as that would be ALOT of land at 6' x several hundred feet, shoot maybe a thousand feet. All timber and have never measured it before.


do it :devil3:


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## david1545 (Jun 9, 2016)

Colbyt said:


> *Got a survey and had the surveyor document the encroachments
> * Sent a copy of that survey and a polite letter via registered mail asking for relief
> * No reply. Lawyer time. He insisted on sending the letter again.
> * No reply. He sent one more letter.
> ...


Agree...


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

brhokel606 said:


> So about a month later, this ****head, cuts down several beautiful pine trees on my property (inside the 6'), drops them and leaves them.


He cut down trees on your agricultural land? Surely there's a hefty fine waiting for him somewhere.


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## MushCreek (Aug 10, 2012)

I'd have a hard time ignoring him at this point. I'd move the fence before he tries claiming adverse possession, sue him (or threaten to) over cutting the trees, and get busy planting the fastest growing trees you can find. I'm pretty easy going, but that's way over the line- pun intended.


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