# Condo Bathroom Reno (CBU, Drywall, tiling, basic plumbing)



## LeviDIY

I finished this project (well, mostly... a few finishing touches still needed) about a month ago. I could not have done it without the help of this message forum. I'll try to refer to the threads that helped when I get to those parts of the project.

For many people, this will seem like a very simple project, didn't really tackle MAJOR construction, but this was my first experience with a "room" renovation.

My fiance and I bought our first condo in May 2008 from a chain smoker, so upon move in, we ripped out carpeting and painted all the surfaces (missed a step, which is discussed here). I installed laminate flooring through about 700 square feet, and had carpet installers to the rest. I switched out light fixtures, switches and outlets, and other odds and ends. I have had no real DIY experience in the past, so everything was learned from books in the library, online and this forum.

There are 2 bathrooms and a kitchen that need to be brought up to 2009 (original construction from 1979). We decided that I'd "try" the guest/2nd bathroom to see how I could do, as we still had the master to use.

That's my story... I wasn't great with before pictures, and honestly during the various stages of this, I was so frustrated and focused that a camera wasn't top priority, but between my fiance and me, we got a few pictures I can share along the journey.... 

Some notes:
- This was originally supposed to be a couple weekends... ended up taking 3 months (we both work long hours, and I didn't want to do loud demo, drywall hanging late nigh b/c of neighbors), so mostly on weekends
- Money was absolutely an issue.. so I often did not have the best tools for the job, so extending the time many simple tasks needed to get it right.
- I am slow, deliberate and also nervous with this  so I spent a lot of time thinking and reading before doing anything, much to the chagrin of my fiance who set and extended I think 3 or 4 different completion deadlines... not a very good GC 

My purpose in posting this: 
- I love reading the other project profiles in here, especially Cocobolo's (http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/gulf-island-building-34958/) and got a lot of inspiration from reading other's entire stories, more in depth than the questions here and there.
- To tell other brand newbies that you CAN do it, its MORE difficult than it seems, but you CAN do it
- I like to write, so bear with my wordiness 

Enjoy, I would love to hear comments, critiques, suggestions or your own experiences along the way... I'll try to get most of this up in the next couple days...


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## LeviDIY

*Demo*

Stage 1 in any project (maybe after planning) is demo, right? Well.. this being the first time I've tried anything like this, demo was VERY scary. I'm in a condo, so not sure if I'm going to cause my upstairs neighbor to fall through the ceiling, or bust through my back shower wall into the neighbor's shower. It looks so much "fun" on DIY Network or HGTV, but I was petrified... so much so that I was afraid to use the reciprocating saw and a sledge hammer on the tile...

Again, I didn't think to take too many before shots, but below you'll see the late 70s/early 80s "hollywood vanity" lights above, and the huge construction grade rectangular mirror... the empty hole is where the medicine cabinet was...








Below you'll see me scrapping the walls....








You may ask "Levi, why would you scrape the walls?" The answer was that there was "granda wallpaper" on there, and I was planning, and successful in, not ripping out ALL the drywall, and painting over the "good" parts.

Which gets me to why I got started in the first place... these bathrooms are horribly designed with no window and no external ventilation... this is a topic for another forum, but the building doesn't have bathroom venting fans, the condo assoc. will not allow you to add venting to puncture the building walls, and no one knows how to get around this (I know the code violations, they don't seem to care!).

Anyhoo... these bathrooms obviously get moisture built up, and I noticed AFTER moving in (thanks Mr. Home inspector who wasn't worth a PENNY) that the tiling in the bathrooms were loose and mildewy. Turns out, the shower surrounds in both bathrooms are on 5/8" sheetrock (fireboard for condos) and essentially barely hanging on after 28 years. 

I started chipping away at the tiles with a crowbar and hammer...








Then got sick and tired of how long it was taking, said "F this" and brought out the guns...








Hard hard sweaty work, by myself, but got the whole shower surround out, took out drywall to a full stud past the tub, removed the toilet, vanity, towel racks, etc.... 

What I kept in: flooring (tile was in good condition, so covered it), tub (in hindsight, I've learned that the best time to replace a tub is with the walls out, I wish I knew that then.. now gotta hire a refinisher), drywall away from the shower.


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## LeviDIY

*Shower Surround/Cement Board install*

I determined very early on that drywall/sheetrock was not meant to get wet :furious:. There are a lot of opinions here and everywhere about shower surrounds.

I was working with metal studs and building codes that required certain material between units (the back wall was a shared wall). Hardibacker 1/2" seemed to be the best thing to do. 

(I'm going to be honest and fess up here... knowing that more than a few of you will shake your heads and raise your hands up skyward and say "why???" but I did the CLASSIC diyer mistake of NOT using Redguard or poly sheet behind the CBU :no:. No excuses, I didn't research it well enough, and by the time I was reading threads on it, the cement board was screwed and construction-adhesived in and not going anywhere.)

I borrowed a Miliwaukee screw gun from a co-worker, after trying 1 with my handy dandy 14 volt cordless Craftsman :thumbup: (great drill, not for screwing CBU screws through CBU and metal studs). Sped up the process considerably...








Things I learned after the fact:
- Predrilling: only realized I should do this about 4/5 of the way through hanging the CBU... especially into my metal studs... I was getting a lot of kickback and sometimes bending of the studs from the pressue, as well as some of the edges of the CBU would break apart... predrilling the CBU and the studs helped a lot.
- No need to use as much construction adhesive: remember, this was my FIRST time hanging anythign other than a picture on studs and was terrified of the thing falling down, so I went a bit overboard...
- Cutting CBU with a circular saw (correct blade of course) is fast, but DUSTY! (see below)








(I'm lucky I live on the terrace level)








I don't have pictures, but even with my stopping and thinking and re thinking, I probably wasted an entire sheet of CBU with mis cuts. Either too short, which is real bad, or too long which took me a long time cause I couldn't use the circular saw to correct such a small error.
















Looks pretty good, right? I think the entire CBU process took about 3 weeks. I told you I was slow! :whistling2: 

Some high/low lights of it:
- Cutting out fixture holes was REAL easy with a carbide tip circle bit for my drill.
- Started installation with regular drywall screws... got about 8 in, and realized that I might have an issue with those... switched to special hardi-screws and had to go back.
- Ceiling.. I was leaving the exisiting ceiling in (mistake... while it was OK, in retrospect, I really should have started from scratch, I think its got some steam damage... the master bath I will rip out entirely), so meeting the CBU to the existing drywall was a challenge for me to get it right
- Seams: used fiber mesh tape and premixed thinset.. seemed to work fine. 
- Thinset: I'll talk more about this in the tiling posts, but I felt pre mixed for someone like me would be best, but had trouble getting it on, again, found out after the fact that adding some water might be a good thing.

Up next... issues where CBU meets Drywall... stay tuned!


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## LeviDIY

*5/8" Drywall Meeting 1/2" CBU -*

So, as I mentioned above, I tore out all the fireboard (5/8" sheetrock) which was in the tub/shower surround and tore it out to one full stud-length past the end of the tub. 

The way the studs and measurements fell out, on the narrow ends of the tub, the CBU hit a stud perfectly at the end of tub. I had essentially 16 inches to fill on both sides with new drywall. When measuring (again, this was my first time working with these materials), I saw 1/2", and knowing drywall was typically 1/2", that made sense. 

I don't own a truck, so I had rented a U Haul to get the 1/2" drywall home from HD. Truck was already returned. Cut the 1/2" drywall to 16 inches to fit perfectly in.... come back in with it... realize the rest of the wall is 5/8" and that 1/8" difference is MASSIVE when butting next to eachother. 

Measure 5 times, buy once.


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## LeviDIY

*5/8" Drywall Meets 1/2" CBU - Part 2*

After several smacks to my head and general cursing and threats from my fiance to "call someone to fix this," cooler heads prevailed and I regrouped. I was able to get some 5/8" fireboard to the condo and cut to size.

I figured it would be easier to deal with the 1/8" gap where the CBU hit the sheetrock because of thinset and subway tile.

I had a forum (actually, my first initiated forum here) that I asked and got a lot of help and even more important, CONFIDENCE to continue:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/5-8-fireboard-paint-meets-1-2-cement-board-tile-42557/

I know this is sappy a bit, and looking back now, such a minor thing that worked out perfectly, but at that moment, I had never seen the outcome, had no idea how good/bad/ugly this would turn out, and doubted my ability to continue the project after this dumb mistake of measuring incorrect thickness. This forum kept this a DIY project at this point. :yes:









You'll be able to see the end result when I post final pictures with the tile and all, but you can see what I did...
- Fiberglass mesh tape
- Thinset bed (one coat) on the CBU side of the tape
- Joint compound (3 coats) on the sheetrock side

I'll talk more about this in the tiling posts, but it worked out very well actually.

What I SHOULD have done was not panic and fur out the CBU as many people in this forum are saying to themselves and have said in other posts here. As you can read in the linked forum above, in my paranoia about these things staying on the wall, I used a ton of construction adhesive in addition to hardi-screws, so by the time I realized that the sheetrock was 5/8" and the CBU was only 1/2", that CBU wasn't goin ANYWHERE. 

*One or two panick attacks later, the lesson learned here: ask for advice from the *right* people you trust, and trust that even if you have not, they've been there before and have seen the end.*

You may have noticed the blue walls in the picture above... in the next post we'll discuss color and the design process... :jester:


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## LeviDIY

*Colors and the designing*

So a brief aside now that you've seen a hint of the wall coloring to talk about the design scheme.

I'm not great with that stuff, but I know what I like and don't like and I know what is pleasing to the "general eye." My fiance has a creative profession and in general creates things quite well for other people, and implements their general visions. I gave her the task of picking out colors and styles. 

Money was the primary driver in this renovation in that we really didn't have much to work with (in the final post, I plan to total all costs for you, don't worry). We weren't changing out the tub (mistake), but all other fixtures needed to be replaced. The vanity cabinet was in good condition, but a bad color.

My fiance kept doubting herself to the point that I began to doubt her on the color. You'll see as the project progresses, but we wanted to make this bathroom, a guest/2nd bathroom, a bit brighter and "non boring" color. You see, we don't plan on staying in the condo longer than 5 or so years (heh.. heh... we'll see about the RE market....) and resale is always on our mind (I also think we've watched too much HGTV/DIY Network which ENGRAINS that into your head.. resale resale resale..investment investment investment...:furious: what about enjoying your own living space and paying for a roof over your head?!... alas, that is a different forum topic). The rest of the condo is fairly neutral and nothing too crazy.

Oh yeah... about priming... on recommendations here, I used Zinsser 1-2-3. I'm sold. That stuff is awesome. Coated fresh drywall, coated old-gross-ex-wallpaper-glue drywall. Once the 2nd coat of Zinsser was on, it was solid. One annoying thing for a newbie DIYer about Zinsser is that is made me NUTS on the drywall finishing because it politely points out every little imperfection in your work :whistling2:.

Anyhoo, back to the point, with colors.... I finally said just go with your gut, and put a bit on the wall and we'll see... 

Well, the blue went on in a small area, and both of us hated it. Then we didn't hate it, but didn't love it. Then we loved it. Then we didn't care. Then I reprimed it cause I hated it and she got angry. Then we painted it.... (2-3 coats... 3 in the fresh drywall areas... I thought it would help "hide" some bad compound feathering)







The door and frame stayed white.















For perspective...








OK, so there it is... the vanity you can't see here, but will see later we painted (wrongly with latex.... but lesson learned as we enter our kitchen reno....) with a deep brown, and used a matching granite from HD (issues on that here: http://www.diychatroom.com/f84/granite-vanity-sealing-question-47914/) and the link to see the actual product is here. You'll see it in future pictures. We matched the curtain to the color and the bathmat.... it also ties in the existing floor tile.

Thoughts? I know you can't see the complete picture yet, but coming together...

Next up, we get to tiling and I'll also fill you on on my experiences with drywall finishing...


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## Green Giant

Looking good. Very strange to see that they won't allow you to install bathroom ventilation fans. Since they don't allow you, when you do the Master bathroom, you should do a full gut and use the mold/mildew resistant drywall. The last thing you would want is to have to rip out a newly completed bathroom because of mold. Any reason why you left the medicine cabinet to the side of the vanity?


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## LeviDIY

Thanks GG... regarding the ventilation... it is strange. I can't figure it out. Part of me wants to call an inspector over, but then the worst case scenario is all the condo owners get a special assessment to fix it? I have no idea... maybe an exception for the complex? There are 330 units here. Regarding the green board, you are 100% right on that, its a start... my solution for humidity is running fans outside the bathroom towards open windows... rrrrrr..

The medicine cabinet is just where it was... bought a newer/cleaner one. In later pictures, you'll see the mirror we hung directly behidn the vanity... its a plain old mirror... this way there is a side profile one to get closer to see when you shave,etc.


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## Green Giant

What are the rules in MD regarding homeowners doing work within a condo association? I know that in NJ they will not let you get permit as a homeowner if it is not a one family house. Additionally, for HOA and Condo Associations that I've dealt with, they required licensed contractor and electrician/plumber before they gave approval for the work. 

If the Condo Association allows owners to do renovations, and building department also allows it, I would call in inspector for the master bathroom. While the vents would take away from the uniformity of the existing exterior it is nor right and I don't believe it is legal to not allow them. Whenever you do permitted work, you are suppose to bring that space up to code. For example if you wanted to just remove sheet rock in kitchen, reinsulate and new sheetrock, inspector would make you bring all outlets/circuits up to code. So by law, you need to add ventilation to the bathroom. Secondly, it is increasing the opportunity for mold and mildew to grow in the bathroom. This is your condo, and you should not be subjected to mold/mildew because they want to keep the appearance uniform outside.

Do you have access to the attic? If they don't allow you to put vent through side of building, maybe there is a gable vent that you can exhaust though, or maybe add a soffit vent.


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## LeviDIY

Green Giant said:


> This is your condo, and you should not be subjected to mold/mildew because they want to keep the appearance uniform outside.
> 
> Do you have access to the attic? If they don't allow you to put vent through side of building, maybe there is a gable vent that you can exhaust though, or maybe add a soffit vent.


I'm on the bottom floor of a 4 story building, but that is a good idea... I will be continuing this discussion with our site manager over time. Appreciate the feedback and suggestion!


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## LeviDIY

*Wall finishing: Drywall*

So above I told you about my issues with measuring drywall thickness accurately. It ended up working out OK, considering the agonizing I did over it.

I'll tell you about the lesson learned here in a second, but this being my first major room reno, I figured it would be easier to just cut out the existing drywall that was bad/damaged and hang some new pieces and mud them together :laughing:. Never having mudded/taped before, I didn't really know what that entailed.

I removed the wallpaper with some remover solution I diluted from HD and a paper tiger. Of course, as is inevitable with a noobie like me, I overdid the paper tiget and put in some puck marks on the drywall I was planning on keeping. I assumed mad that the new primer and coats of paint would cover this.

I also spend about 2 weeks trying to finish the seams. I bought the premixed stuff, which I know a lot of people on here dislike, but found it pretty easy to work with. The problem I had was I had NO IDEA what this would look like after the fact with primer and paint. After each coat and sanding (and subsequent dust storm), all I could see was color differentials.

After the third time of "redoing" the finish coat of mud, I just said "F it" and let it be. You know what? It was fine. I know where the seams are and where it isn't perfect, but no one else notices it when I show them my work. That's the curse of the DIYer as I've read on here before.









Drywall finishing lessons learned:
- You save no time trying to match up new drywall to old drywall, just remove it all in a small bathroom type room.
- Following up from the first lesson learned.. gross wall paper that is really on there is more easily removed by removing the drywall entirely (I'm currently going that route in my kitchen).
- If you aren't removing the drywall, a skim coat over the old drywall should cover up those pocks... I did not do this... they are there, I notice them, others don't unless pointed out, and a good deal are behind where the vanity mirror hangs.
- Seal and negative pressure would be nice things for our lungs when in the rest of the house
- Should have added _some_ water to the premixed stuff to get it on the wall smoother
- A good primer/sealer covers the drywall compound and you don't need to agonize over it too much... the most important part of finishing seems to be the feathering out on the side.
- Being the cheapo that I am, I bought PLASTIC (I can HEAR the pros out there just cringing) knives... WORST. MISTAKE. EVER. I'm going to be doing more drywall in my kitchen, I swear I will invest in proper knives.

Up next: will detail my tiling adventure... sorry for the delay in posts.. started on the kitchen reno so that's taking all my free time now... going to be rewiring stuff tonight, and drywall going up over weekend, so assuming I haven't electrocuted myself, should be posting by end of the weekend


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## LeviDIY

*Adventures in tiling tub surround*

In case you were wondering, I did not electrocute myself working on the kitchen (though I did come close recently: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/nicked-romex-demo-splice-re-run-50621/). :whistling2:

Tiling. Where to begin.... design would be first. We both decided that we wanted something clean, did not want large shower stall 12"x12" type tiles.. didn't think that looked good with a tub. We also decided we wanted something kinda neutral (again, condo.. resale appeal importance). We liked the subway tile design and it fit what we were looking for... also didn't hurt that the "snow white" ceramic subway tile at HD was like $0.19/tile. 

Went to a few stores, and really debated for a while about doing an accent line or two with glass tile or maybe some black to break up the wall. After not being able to find something that worked with our general theme and other colors, including my confidence to blend it together... we just decided to run the subway/brick pattern from the edge of the tub all the way up to the ceiling.

As you probably could guess, I sat on the edge of the tub for about 45 minutes before cracking open the thinset and loading up the trowel, just thinking about what I was doing (this after reading a book and countless hours on this forum and other online sources). nline2long:

Rather than take you through the minutes blow by blow, below are a few highlight pictures, then I'll just give some lessons learned at the end:

First few courses (note the lack of a ledger board... see lessons learned below):








Starting to come together, this probably took only 1/2 hour to get done.. once I got going, it really went. Problem: I ran out of thinset (grossly underestimated.. yes, I bought the premixed stuff) and had to run to the store. (Note the green plastic tub protection.. see lessons learned below):








2/3 walls mostly done (note a _very slight.. 1/8"_ drop off from left to right on back wall.. see lessons learned below) plus the soap dish. Also, bottom left of picture, hard to see really, but there are two end caps. A side note... NOWHERE could I find 3"x6" tiles with the 3" side on one end rounded off. I was baffled. You can find it in 2x6 or most others, but not 3x6 (which is the most common subway tile size). I had to buy 2x6 end caps and run them vertically. It worked, but not the original intent, which messed up my wall plan:








Closeup of the soap dish, I'm very proud of this, and quite frankly, the noobie that I am, did not expect the thinset + grout + caulk to hold it, but it does. I have a new appreciation for any shower insert thing, I never knew how HEAVY they were and how LIGHTLY they are attached!








Final product, grouted and sealed :thumbup::








*Lessons learned:*
- Preparation of work area: go overboard. The amount of time I spent in that tub, I really needed to protect it more. I had leftover plastic tarp (MAYBE 2 mil thick) that I used. Not good enough. Plus, I did not secure it well enough, as you can see in some pictures, it fell down in parts. Many little glops of thinset and grout and other random things got down under there. I tried to clean them up when I noticed, but caused damage to the tub. Can not say enough about this.

- Ledger board: Use one. I knew this. I read books and stuff online, they all said it. I bought some 1x2's and measured and cut them to the length of the back and side walls. After picture 2 above, I ran out of thinset, came back from the store, and noticed there was a slight slight (1/8") drop off from left to right along the back wall - the tiles on the right side sorta slide down a bit. The thinset had already set and I didn't want to rip it all off and damage the CBU. I tried to compensate on the rest of the courses up the wall, and no one notices it until I point it out specifically and they get up close to look at it, but the curse of the DIYer is in full effect on this one. When I did the side walls, I used one and they are perfectly straight.

- Thinset: I liked the pre mixed... no mess, easy to work with. A little pricey, but overall, worked for me. From what I read, stay away from mastic for wet areas, but you wouldn't know that from the people in the tile aisle at HD.

- Tiles: I bought about 15% more than my math called for, and used almost all the overage... see below on cutting...

- Cutting: I borrowed a small, cheap wet tile saw from my uncle, otherwise I would have bought it for $80. Never used one before, but took 1 cut to figure out speed and pressure, as well as its limitations (hard to do angles). I bought a 1" diameter carbide tipped circle bit for my drill which was great for my fixture openings (used the same bit to cut those into the CBU). Made a ton of a mess on my patio, and probably swallowed a few ceramic shards here and there, but very very easy.

- Measuring/Layout: this probably took THE MOST time and cause me THE MOST aggravation of the entire tiling part of the project, and of the entire bathroom reno :wallbash:. In theory, a subway layout is easy... count the number of courses you need up the wall, and cut tiles in half for half of those to offset and make the brick pattern. Well this works perfectly if you have walls that (in my case) were a multiple of 3 inches (given the 6" tile length). My back wall was not. THEN I had to debate how to handle the corners and the corresponding side walls... do I wrap the pattern around or start over on the side? I decided to try to wrap around... on the first side wall I did, I ended up with 1" tile at the end (before the end cap.. see 2nd picture above). This being my first tile job, I thought that was OK. It is that... OK. It doesn't look great. On the other side wall, I gave up the perfect brick pattern and offset the 2 courses not in the center, but off by a 1/4" to get a 2 inch end piece to look better. No one notices.... except me....

- CBU Screws: screw them in all the way. And the coat of thinset over them... make sure its not too thick and bumpy. Causes the tile on top to not set up perfectly... I learned the hardway after it was too late. :furious:

- Grouting: really really really easy I found. Was nervous (what else is new), but nothing. The only thing is to really wipe the haze away earlier than later. To my eye, its still got a bit of haze that I could never get off cause I was "too tired and it can wait till tomorrow."

- Sealing/Caulking: Sealing was a no brainer. The caulking was an adventure, figuring out technique took a bit and about 2 full rolls of paper towels to figure out (had to start a forum for advice: http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/caulking-technique-46865/)

- Final course at tub lip and ceiling: this took a while as my ceiling isn't straight nor was my tub. Cut each tile individually. 

In general... the tile measuring was the worst. Did I mention that already? I'm sure there was a better way to do it, I just kept getting frustrated and my fiance (and I as well) just wanted to get going, enough sitting around thinking... plus my uncle wanted the saw back :no:.

Up next: Plumbing and fixtures!


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## Quadfam4

You are making me scared!!!!!!! We havent gotten to the tiling part of our reno yet due to LOTS AND LOTS OF PLUMBING WORK more plumbing work then we originally planned for. I like the subway tiles but I still think because I am going with a darker slate like floor tile that I am going to continue the 12x12 tiles in the bath/Shower surround but using a mosaic accent tile as well to break up the space. I am terrified to tile I think you are doing a great job so far.


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## LeviDIY

Quadfam4 said:


> You are making me scared!!!!!!! ....I am terrified to tile.


Don't be.. I've been following your project thread as well.. the tiling can be intimidating the first time, but my biggest lesson learned is in the planning/measuring stage... I was impatient, but you almost have to plan for EACH tile, especially on ends or transition areas... it'll be easier given your choice of a larger tile (that equals less total tiles to figure out ). 

Good luck to us both!!:thumbup:


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## Quadfam4

LeviDIY, 

I am sure I will do fine but the cutting scares me. Not because of the blade or anything its getting it tight around the places that need to be cut like the gas lines and stuff. I bought a mosaic accent tile for the shower surround they are 12x12 mesh backed which I will be cutting into strips of three. Just kind of nervous about the tiling because I have spent so much extra money on it and I want it to look good when I am done. Keep me posted on your reno and I will keep you posted on mine. 

Jenn


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## LeviDIY

*Plumbing and Fixtures*

My uncle told me something about fears of tackling plumbing projects in relation to electrical projects: "If you mess up plumbing, all you have is some water. If you mess up electrical..."

Well, reading this thread and others of mine, you probably can guess I'm nervous about everything the first or 4th time. I'm on the ground floor of a condo building, so I had a little comfort that if I screwed up I wouldn't be messing up someone else's bathroom/unit. Also, in this project (unlike Quadfam/Jenn who I sympathize with her plumbing issues), no major plumbing replacement was needed... only minor repair/replacement.

Game plan:
- Vanity: the bones were good, just not the color... sand down, repaint/finish with a dark brown color to offset the lighter tan floor tiling and contrast with the blue walls. Replace cultured stone with granite and porcelain sink. Brushed nickle faucet. Medicine cabinet replacement (was gross).
- Toilet: replace. Get something cool.
- Shower faucet/handles: replace.. corroded and gross handles/spout (like calcium buildup on it almost... yuck :nuke.
- Shower head: reaplce... something cool.

I think this stage of the project was helped along most by my other threads in the chatroom, so I'll refer you to their links rather than retype it here...

Lessons Learned:
- *Vanity*: I know I'm talking plumbing/fixtures, but the painting should have been done a different way. This was a project I delegated to my fiance, who did a good job, but didn't research the type of paint for a wood vanity in a bathroom. Suffice it to say, latex paint with no primer was used. We've yet to have is sagg/peal/disintegrate, but I know its coming, just have been too lazy to fix.
- *Countertop*: bought it at HD, one of those all in one units. This thread discusses it (http://www.diychatroom.com/f84/granite-vanity-sealing-question-47914/), and still have some issues with water leaving a mark on it, but it goes away in 10 minutes... so beware a bit.
- *Sink hookups*: this was my first foray into even beginners plumbing... honestly, it was fairly simple, just hard to access.... and a bit frustrating trying to tighten things in such close quarters. I had a thread to figure out what connections to use (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/replacing-solid-flexible-sink-supply-line-43223/).
- *Toilet:* I wanted something cool... something powerful... something.... awesome? Then I saw prices. I went with a Flaperless Niagra system (thread: http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/flapperless-toilet-thoughts-44216/), and its performed very well... not as powerful as I'd hoped, but it does use less water. Had some questions on the flange as I had no idea if what I was looking at was any good (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/toilet-flange-questions-45644/), but it all worked out very well. Pictures of the toilet installed are in those threads.
- *Shower faucet/handles*: had some difficultly here. This was really the first "scary" moment (other than removing the toilet and breathing in) as I couldn't find a separate shut off for the shower and had to cut water to the whole unit and work with a lot of extra water in the pipes. Also, had to turn on when done for the day (not the project) and pray it would hold. Had some issues early (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/price-pfister-3-valve-shower-replacement-water-issue-46953/). I bought a "universal" 3 valve shower all in one replacement kit at HD... HORRIBLE idea. I was trying to get a better look, rather than the standard, builder grade 3 handles you always see on the Price Pfister older faucets... and it looked good. Problem... not an EXACT fit, which led to leaking. I, not knowing that, thought it was ME early on and of course went nuts trying to figure out what was wrong. I ended up taking it all out, going to a plumbing supply store, and the guy told me either I can rip out the faucet piping (not an option really at that point for me, as the CBU and tiling were up) and replace, but a 3 to 1 converter thingy, which I didn't really like, or just get "new" older style handles. Checked with the fiance, and she reluctantly agreed to just "keep it simple." The picture below are the new handles... nice and shiny :yes:. This casued me a lot of headaches, but got it right, and actually saved $$, because the guy at teh supply store told me my valves were fine, don't need new ones, but should probably just repalce the rubber stops/washers/etc... and I got a great lesson in how the faucets/valve systems work!
- *Shower head*: I just realized I didn't take any pictures, but we got one of thoe overhead, "rain" style shower heads that can adjust to be a standard style also... just a nice touch.

Here are some pictures relating to the above components that I don't think are in the other threads...

Vanity top on (hard to tell the color of the painted cabinet):








Running water!!! :thumbup::thumbup:








Bart occupied my medicine cabinet hole until I could fine a suitable replacement:








Vanity and toilet (better quality):








Replaced handles (after much headache):








Up next: finishing touches, wrap up!


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## LeviDIY

*Finishing Touches*

Hey there.. while I'm waiting on some speaker wire to come in that is causing my kitchen reno to take a breather before I close up the walls (http://www.diychatroom.com/f12/speaker-wire-walls-51844/), I have some time to update this thread...

With the major work done, its down to finishing touches on the bathroom. I figured the "heavy lifting" was done and this would be a breeze..... :laughing:

I found out that while the "heavy lifting" and "stress" of construction and such was done, finishing it a WHOLE nother type of stress and work. Not physically demanding, but often mentally taxing.

I imagine those with no budget jester can just walk through showrooms and point. Me, on the other hand, money was everything on this project. I'll detail costs in the next post, but I was trying to get a bathroom here that looked good, not cheap, but at discount prices if possible.

What still isn't done:
- Touch up paint... I've moved on from the bathroom and keep telling myself I'll go back in and tidy up the edges.... but haven't... my guess is I won't for a while... I really really should have just done it.
- Baseboard clean up: where the baseboard meets the drywall there is a slight gap (stone baseboard so the thinset caused separation a bit on the top) so need to buy the right silicone to fill that... tried grout... BIG mistake and had to remove it.
- GFCI replacement... bought it, have the tools and skills to do it, just... like the paint... have moved on :whistling2:
- Painting the door: you may laugh... I primed it when priming the drywall, just... haven't done it... for my $, the priming looks fine  

In my defense, we are using this 2nd bathroom right now as a kitchen sink while the kitchen is out of commission, so haven't wanted to make any construction mess.. hehehehe  

Other finishes:
- Medicine cabinet: this was a bit of a headache that I wasn't counting on. The wall with the medicine cabinet was not ripped out, just primed and painted. But the old medicine cabinet was pretty gross and we threw out in demo. So now we needed to find the right size to fit where the other one was. I didn't want to cut into studs, but we could only find at HD and Lowes and local hardware stores standard sizes that didn't fit our cut out. We looked everywhere, online, etc.... FINALLY - the condo association was able to find the original supplier from 25 years ago that miraculously was still producing the same model and was able to jimmy it in there (I think it was like 5MM wider than our cut out... a maddening difference).









- You'll notice the mirror on the adjacent wall to the medicine cabinet. There's another view below. This was a mirror my fiance found at Home Goods (like a Marshall's or Hit or Miss for home furnishings) for cheap that we primed and painted the same paint as the vanity, same color as shower curtain and bathmat. As with the vanity (discussed before), I think the latex paint was a bad bad choice... plus this type of mirror isn't flush with the wall and is a bit "clunky" for the look we want... I tried to built a cleat - an idea I got from this forum (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/please-help-mounting-bathroom-mirror-45174/) - but still don't like the look of the mirror itself.. so its temporary until we want to go shopping and replace it.... eventually:whistling2:.









- Above is the mirror discussed and a light fixture. I had no idea the cost of some vanity lighting. Man you can spend hundreds! We settled on that from Home Depot for just under $100... I wanted classy/sophisticated, but not frilly or too "new age." All our finishes are brucked nickle, so that helped to narrow it down. I have 60 watt bulbs in there that are really bright... I want to go CFL, but haven't found the right size yet.

- Towel bar: I know, I know... not really interesting stuff, but we got at Home Goods with the matching toilet paper holder and back of door towel hanger for $19.95 + tax. Not bad! Considering I saw sets for close to $100. Couldn't hit studs with it, so mounted with drywall screws.









- Missing fan: THIS is still aggravating me. We discussed above about the ventilation... so I haven't don't anything here yet... I left the grill off because I planned on replacing it, but really I'm at a loss... why replace a crappy "circulator" with another circulator that doesn't vent. :furious:









Other than than, caulked/siliconed joints and edge of vanity to wall, toilet, etc... came together quite nicely.

What I'm going to do next is gather my million HD reciepts and attempt to do a breakdown of costs for you all.

Enjoy!


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## specialguest

Nice my first venture into renovating was my bathroom. It really looks awful looking at it now as I also tried to salvage drywall. Oh well maybe when the other house gets done I'll tear into this one, again. Granted it's hard to put a price on the experience and the hands on knowledge that you just can't get in a book or on a forum.


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## LeviDIY

specialguest said:


> Granted it's hard to put a price on the experience and the hands on knowledge that you just can't get in a book or on a forum.


Absolutely, 100% agree - I learned so much just in a little bathroom, and just as importante was confidence in tackling things.. making my current kitchen reno go much faster and smoother. Eventually, I plan on totally gutting (after learning, like you that it is easier than trying to salvage parts of walls) and redoing even more plumbing, etc in the master bath.


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## drtbk4ever

Hey Levi,

Great report. Thanks for sharing.

I'm looking forward to seeing your kitchen progress.


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## LeviDIY

*Cost*

OK - so I think I've detailed most of what I did/didn't do. I may have left out something here or there. Now onto a question I see a lot of DIYers on here ask, and one I wondered about myself before embarking on the project... What's it gonna cost me?

I know talking about pricing/cost is somewhat of an issue here, but I think that is mainly a reaction to people wondering "what a pro would charge" - and of course there is NO way to answer that with any accuracy. I'm proud to say (no offense to any pros out there) I didn't hire anyone for this, all me and my fiance's "sweat equity." I kinda wish we had gotten some quotes from contractors for comparison to our actual costs, but that wouldn't have been fair to those contractors to make them waste their time.

The costs below are in US dollars, and I live in the Maryland suburbs outside of Washington, DC (a higher priced area of the country and specifically in the DC metro area). I shopped at my local HD and True Value outlet (Strosniders for those who are around here - the Bethesda location ). I also rounded here... because I know there were many many many many trips to get a $3 thing here or a $11 doodad there that I just don't remember. 

Also, I had to buy some items seasoned DIYers might already have for multiple projects (recip saw, random tools) as this was my first major one, so my misc costs might be higher.

*Toilet $100* (As referenced above, I went with the Niagra system, cheapo plus adding in for wax ring, shims ,etc)

*Vanity Top $200* (granite/sink all in one, also referenced above)

*Sink Faucet $100* (Pegasus brand from HD, cheapo)

*Reciprocating Saw $80* (Ryobi - didn't have one, so a cost for this project)

*CBU $55*

*Thinset $60* (yeah... used the tub kind.. should have bought the big 5 gallon, but kept having to buy 1 gallons.. because I didn't think :jester.

*Drywall $40*

*Drywall Supplies $100* (steel stud replacements, mud, tape, knives, screws)

*Paint/Supplies $75* (I had most rollers/brushes from painting the condo originally.. includes Zinsser and Behr [I know..:whistling2:] and mildicide additives)

*Tile $300* (nothing fancy, snow white 3x6 subway tile and endcaps)

*Grout $20*

*Sealer $30* (I was SHOCKED at the cost of a spray bottle...)

*Caulk $15* (estimate here.. prob about right... also including some silicone I used for the vanity top)

*Bathroom Hardware $40* (bought cheapo as described above)

*Medicine Cabinet $50*

*GFCI/Minor electrical supplies $20*

*Vanity Light $80* (HD, described above)

*Plumbing Supplies $125* (Shower Faucet/supply lines/showerhead/tools)

*Exhaust Fan TBD* (as described above... this remains unsolved...)

_*TOTAL: $1,490.*_

Items Borrowed (Free): screw gun, shop vac

Other costs from a typical bathroom remodel we didn't have because we didn't do: more drywall (complete tear out), flooring (kept tile, in good condition and matched our color plan), and new bathtub (described above).

What was our bugdet? We really had no idea, but were planning on around $1,000... obviously came in above that. If you discount a few of our expenses as "multiple use expenses" (can you tell I'm a finance guy?) not just for this project, I think all things being equal, we came in fairly close to what we "planned."

I think I may try to boil down the tasks into "man hours" for ya'll to gauge the value of time so more.. but overall, I think we got a lotta bang for our bucks on this one.


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## LeviDIY

drtbk4ever said:


> Hey Levi,
> 
> Great report. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing your kitchen progress.


Thanks! I will hopefully start a thread on that in a bit.. been taking more pictures along the way on that project, so hope to have some better quality/more interesting shots.


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## techprincesse

Wow, thanks for the play-by-play! I'm in Rockville, MD and in a condo too (a foreclosure) that I just moved into last month and I have a bathroom and kitchen to demo myself! We have a condo association, but the 3 bathrooms in my condo/townhouse all have ventilation fans that vent outside. I used to live in another condo (in Gaithersburg) that had 2 bathrooms that vented outside as well. I was on 2nd floor and had a unit above and below me. I guess it depends on hen the house was built?


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## LeviDIY

TechP, thanks neighbor... yeah, I think its a function of when built and maybe some construction/developer lining some pockets


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## sbmfj

awesome thread Levi. 

Did you grout or caulk the shower corner walls?


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## drtbk4ever

sbmfj said:


> awesome thread Levi.
> 
> Did you grout or caulk the shower corner walls?


I hope he caulked the corners.


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## LeviDIY

I did indeed, Bill 

My finishing shower surround order: Thinset, tile (in sections), left ample room for soap dish, etc., made those cuts, taped them up, let thinset cure a day or so, grout, let cure a day while cleaning haze of course (I did grout the corner and the edge around soap dishes - don't know if this was right but figured it couldnt hurt), caulk all corners, edges, soap dishes.

I did not caulk around fixtures... still haven't... I started to around escutcheon (spelling?), but didn't like the look... actually wonder if I should...


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## Quadfam4

Lookes great! and you bought the same sink fixture I did! I will have to post the pics of my finished project.


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## LeviDIY

Thanks! Look forward to seeing them...


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## DIY Nicole

Wow I live in a tri-level house and our bathroom is set up literally the EXACT same as yours! I have been dying to DIY it! And was sooo glad to find your post b/c it is so similiar! I am hoping to start our project soon, i have been buying things here and there. I really like the subway tile, and am hoping to get the same, I am just worried on how to set the tile around the shower, never done it before and just am not sure how to seal it all? 

My question is when you say use a ledger board, what exactly does that mean? Where do you put it at, on the base for the tile on the tub? Sorry, told you I was a noobie! lol And, also I was reading where you were saying you should put something under the CBU (which i am assuming is short for cement board) what steps should you take to prep the shower surround for the tile I guess is what I am asking. Sorry to ask so many questions  Thanks so much for posting this it helps tremendously!


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## LeviDIY

Nicole - glad this helped, I was hoping this would provide a good resource for people, like me, who were just getting started and wanted to see a project through completion.

Sealing the tile: I bought subway tile that had built in spacers of about 1/16 inch.. which beats setting those tiny spacers on all those tiles.. I may be wrong, but I believe a lot of subway tile comes with that. Then, grouting and a tile sealant with a couple coats is it!

Ledger board: I used a 1x2 wood board and screwed it into the backer board (CBU) 1 subway tile height up from the top of the tub (actually, t tile height plus about 1/8 of an inch - was told to leave that space there for expansion and caulking). This helps keep the tiles in a perfectly straight line (if you screw in the ledger board perfectly straight  ) all the way up the wall... once the tiles all the way up are set and thin set is dry, remove the board and do the final bottom row, and tape them to the bottom of the row above while they set and you're good to go!

Shower surround: this is a question better asked to the pros... if you have wood studs, then I believe you really should use a membrane.. like a plastic "tarp" almost that you staple to the studs before putting up the CBU/cement board. There are many on this forum that use RedGuard on top of the CBU and before the thinset to water proof.. I would say investigate those further from the pros.


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## Bonzai

I am a general contractor and I do a lot of bathroom renovations. I couldn't help but notice that there seemed to be no waterproofing / crack prevention membrane on the tile backer-board before you installed the tile (according to your pics).
90% of the time I do a bathroom or tiled floor or kitchen backsplash, etc I have to educate the client as to why this is an essential step as I know I will be under cut by cowboy contractors who skip steps ... and even in a lot of new builds (especially condos) I see developers skipping this step especially with tiled floors to save a few $$.
I have found the most economical solution & easiest install for DIYers (in terms of material cost) is to use Red Guard which looks like a pink desert and goes on with a small roller. It turns to a red rubber layer when dry. If correctly applied this will stop the grout and/or tiles from cracking due to minor settlement but also critically it stops moisture from penetrating beyond to cause issues in or behind the backer-board ... very few people re-seal their tiled showers as often as they should and grout is not waterproof. Over a period of months of use even a tiny pin hole in the grout can let through enough water to cause mold to develop. Hardi backerboard is not waterproof, especially at the joins between sections.

Just a friendly recommendation not to skip this step ;-)


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## LeviDIY

Bonzai - you are absolutely correct in pointing that out... I believe a couple times earlier in the thread I wrote that I realized the msitake after the fact. I was posting to this forum in semi-real time as I was undergoing... def. lesson learned!


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## Bonzai

I scanned through your posts to see if you mentioned it already and must have missed that. I've even had sales persons at a certain home improvement store try to tell me that it isn't necessary so it's hardly surprising many DIYers wouldn't know ;-). 
On a similar note I had one potential client ask me to quote for a tiled exterior deck. She was apparently a structural engineer although I have my doubts! She would not accept that it was essential to fully waterproof and install a crack prevention and yet there we were standing on the existing cracked tile deck over a workshop with rotten beams and mold due to leaks. Some people never learn ;-)

Best of luck with your next project.


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## BigJim

LeviDIY said:


> In case you were wondering, I did not electrocute myself working on the kitchen (though I did come close recently: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/nicked-romex-demo-splice-re-run-50621/). :whistling2:
> 
> Tiling. Where to begin.... design would be first. We both decided that we wanted something clean, did not want large shower stall 12"x12" type tiles.. didn't think that looked good with a tub. We also decided we wanted something kinda neutral (again, condo.. resale appeal importance). We liked the subway tile design and it fit what we were looking for... also didn't hurt that the "snow white" ceramic subway tile at HD was like $0.19/tile.
> 
> Went to a few stores, and really debated for a while about doing an accent line or two with glass tile or maybe some black to break up the wall. After not being able to find something that worked with our general theme and other colors, including my confidence to blend it together... we just decided to run the subway/brick pattern from the edge of the tub all the way up to the ceiling.
> 
> As you probably could guess, I sat on the edge of the tub for about 45 minutes before cracking open the thinset and loading up the trowel, just thinking about what I was doing (this after reading a book and countless hours on this forum and other online sources). nline2long:
> 
> Rather than take you through the minutes blow by blow, below are a few highlight pictures, then I'll just give some lessons learned at the end:
> 
> First few courses (note the lack of a ledger board... see lessons learned below):
> View attachment 13063
> 
> 
> Starting to come together, this probably took only 1/2 hour to get done.. once I got going, it really went. Problem: I ran out of thinset (grossly underestimated.. yes, I bought the premixed stuff) and had to run to the store. (Note the green plastic tub protection.. see lessons learned below):
> View attachment 13064
> 
> 
> 2/3 walls mostly done (note a _very slight.. 1/8"_ drop off from left to right on back wall.. see lessons learned below) plus the soap dish. Also, bottom left of picture, hard to see really, but there are two end caps. A side note... NOWHERE could I find 3"x6" tiles with the 3" side on one end rounded off. I was baffled. You can find it in 2x6 or most others, but not 3x6 (which is the most common subway tile size). I had to buy 2x6 end caps and run them vertically. It worked, but not the original intent, which messed up my wall plan:
> View attachment 13065
> 
> 
> Closeup of the soap dish, I'm very proud of this, and quite frankly, the noobie that I am, did not expect the thinset + grout + caulk to hold it, but it does. I have a new appreciation for any shower insert thing, I never knew how HEAVY they were and how LIGHTLY they are attached!
> View attachment 13066
> 
> 
> Final product, grouted and sealed :thumbup::
> View attachment 13067
> 
> 
> *Lessons learned:*
> - Preparation of work area: go overboard. The amount of time I spent in that tub, I really needed to protect it more. I had leftover plastic tarp (MAYBE 2 mil thick) that I used. Not good enough. Plus, I did not secure it well enough, as you can see in some pictures, it fell down in parts. Many little glops of thinset and grout and other random things got down under there. I tried to clean them up when I noticed, but caused damage to the tub. Can not say enough about this.
> 
> - Ledger board: Use one. I knew this. I read books and stuff online, they all said it. I bought some 1x2's and measured and cut them to the length of the back and side walls. After picture 2 above, I ran out of thinset, came back from the store, and noticed there was a slight slight (1/8") drop off from left to right along the back wall - the tiles on the right side sorta slide down a bit. The thinset had already set and I didn't want to rip it all off and damage the CBU. I tried to compensate on the rest of the courses up the wall, and no one notices it until I point it out specifically and they get up close to look at it, but the curse of the DIYer is in full effect on this one. When I did the side walls, I used one and they are perfectly straight.
> 
> - Thinset: I liked the pre mixed... no mess, easy to work with. A little pricey, but overall, worked for me. From what I read, stay away from mastic for wet areas, but you wouldn't know that from the people in the tile aisle at HD.
> 
> - Tiles: I bought about 15% more than my math called for, and used almost all the overage... see below on cutting...
> 
> - Cutting: I borrowed a small, cheap wet tile saw from my uncle, otherwise I would have bought it for $80. Never used one before, but took 1 cut to figure out speed and pressure, as well as its limitations (hard to do angles). I bought a 1" diameter carbide tipped circle bit for my drill which was great for my fixture openings (used the same bit to cut those into the CBU). Made a ton of a mess on my patio, and probably swallowed a few ceramic shards here and there, but very very easy.
> 
> - Measuring/Layout: this probably took THE MOST time and cause me THE MOST aggravation of the entire tiling part of the project, and of the entire bathroom reno :wallbash:. In theory, a subway layout is easy... count the number of courses you need up the wall, and cut tiles in half for half of those to offset and make the brick pattern. Well this works perfectly if you have walls that (in my case) were a multiple of 3 inches (given the 6" tile length). My back wall was not. THEN I had to debate how to handle the corners and the corresponding side walls... do I wrap the pattern around or start over on the side? I decided to try to wrap around... on the first side wall I did, I ended up with 1" tile at the end (before the end cap.. see 2nd picture above). This being my first tile job, I thought that was OK. It is that... OK. It doesn't look great. On the other side wall, I gave up the perfect brick pattern and offset the 2 courses not in the center, but off by a 1/4" to get a 2 inch end piece to look better. No one notices.... except me....
> 
> - CBU Screws: screw them in all the way. And the coat of thinset over them... make sure its not too thick and bumpy. Causes the tile on top to not set up perfectly... I learned the hardway after it was too late. :furious:
> 
> - Grouting: really really really easy I found. Was nervous (what else is new), but nothing. The only thing is to really wipe the haze away earlier than later. To my eye, its still got a bit of haze that I could never get off cause I was "too tired and it can wait till tomorrow."
> 
> - Sealing/Caulking: Sealing was a no brainer. The caulking was an adventure, figuring out technique took a bit and about 2 full rolls of paper towels to figure out (had to start a forum for advice: http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/caulking-technique-46865/)
> 
> - Final course at tub lip and ceiling: this took a while as my ceiling isn't straight nor was my tub. Cut each tile individually.
> 
> In general... the tile measuring was the worst. Did I mention that already? I'm sure there was a better way to do it, I just kept getting frustrated and my fiance (and I as well) just wanted to get going, enough sitting around thinking... plus my uncle wanted the saw back :no:.
> 
> Up next: Plumbing and fixtures!



You are looking good buddy.


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## rmk9785e

*Soap/shampoo shelf*

Greetings,
Thank you for posting a detailed step by step of your bath remodeling project with do's and don't for newbies. I am starting a similar project and trying to decide if a soap dish corner shelf like yours will suffice or do I need to add a niche. Would you please share with me how it is holding up after about 5 years and where would one find a similar one?
Regards.


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## LeviDIY

rmk9785e said:


> Greetings,
> Thank you for posting a detailed step by step of your bath remodeling project with do's and don't for newbies. I am starting a similar project and trying to decide if a soap dish corner shelf like yours will suffice or do I need to add a niche. Would you please share with me how it is holding up after about 5 years and where would one find a similar one?
> Regards.


Can't tell you how good it was to receive an email of a comment from DIY Chatroom - it has been a while, and spent some time reviewing my thread and others I was subscribed to! :thumbup:

I gotta say, its been holding up well - this is a 2nd bathroom/guest, so it doesn't get the use that our master bath does (gotta update THAT thread too I realized: http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/cond...htub-shower-conversion-flooring-98814/index2/).

A mistake I *think* I made was not to angle the soap dish toward the shower/tub area ("down") a bit - water can collect up there and get "gunky" as its just at my eye level and above my wife's , so not visually reminding us to wipe it down.

I think I got it online actually, but I remember shopping all over for the right color/style/size - HD never seemed to have it, Lowes either. Sorry I can't remember that detail for you. But it didn't seem SO outlandish an item.


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## jmill155

*Awesome Progress*

Just started improving my place as well. I'm definitely going to tackle the bathroom and kitchen floors. Yours looks great! kudos for all your hard work


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