# large notch in support beam



## kadgar (Sep 1, 2007)

In the basement there are two identical "beams". Approx 16' long made up of three 2X8's. Supported at each end by foundation wall and in the middle (7' from one end and 9' from the other end ) by a concrete post approx 12" square. At one end a "notch" was cut out for some reason. (see photo) Notch is 5"X6" and about 2' from foundation wall. Under the notch is a "pole jack" to support it. What can I do to permanently remove the pole jack? Load bearing wall? Not sure. Beam runs perpendicular to joists. There are walls above this beam on the 1st. and 2nd floors. Apologies for any incorrect terms. Need more info or pictures? Thanks.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

wow... i wouldn't attempt to move that pole jack..... very dangeroous.
why do you want to? 
now if i HAD to, i'd consider a NEW support beam (probably LVL) installed BEFORE i attempted to remove the old one.
and i'd certainly talk to my engineer/architect friend first to have him evaluate the situation.
but the guys here will have better suggestions, i'm sure.... 

DM


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

This could be a little en-voled for a DIY'er, but ! If you need to remove the lolly column here are some idea's
1) I agree with the mouse. you will need to build a temporary wall under all those floor joists on either side of the existing girder, No more then 2' back. i would recommend putting a 6x6 on the floor { looking at the photo's it appears the house has some age to it which leads me to believe the floor could be 2" thick or less,the 6x6 will help from having the floor crack and sink.} install a top plate and add your 2x4 wall studs making them a little longer to help take the tension off the girder.you could even use a jack to lift the beam slightly then install your stud.
get some LVL's (which will become wider then the existing girder) or three Doug fir 2x8's that should bring you just about flush with the existing girder.
Cut out the existing girder centered on the next lolly column. measure the length and spike two together and then install. once in place install your third 2x8 and spike that together. Then I would install two pieces of 1/4" plates on either side of the seam above the supporting Lolly column threw bolted. then remove the walls.
2. you can just leave the column. Its doing its job as long as its on a proper footer. or just frame your wall and leave it there. frame your two foot wall from the column to the foundation wall, you say its 2' correct ?. doing it this way you will need to support the wall on some type of footing. do you want to break up the floor? BOB


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

me, i wonder why the holes were cut to begin with... i'm guessing no longer existing ductwork?
can't see the floor, but if they put in the lallys, they probably have an ok floor, or put wood under them.
if it was me, i'd sister an additional 2x to what's there to add strength along that area. (if you plan on keeping it) but NOT to replace the added beam. 

involved? yes... 
do-able? maybe with a helper? sure!
buletbob sez he'll be right over to help! Po)

DM


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

BuletBob's pretty much got it right! No way to repair that beam...That notch completely compromises it structurally. No way to remove the lally column without replacement of the beam. The beam could definately be replaced as long as temporary walls were erected to support the joists that bear on the beam.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

In the 2nd pic it looks like there's another beam cut even worse in the background. Is that the case???


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

i saw that too KC, looks like they're sagging too.....
all i can say is WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???

DM


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The third picture looks like a close up of the second beam( note the 1x instead of 2x spanning the gap). Probably the plumbers running a drain line did this.


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

Merely guessing, but was this house heated with the old style steam or hot water method once upon a day?? Looks a bit big for a drain line even!! They had enough room up in that floor joist bay for a drain. This looks like WHY the term wood butcher was invented!! If your going to replace one,,,might as well replace BOTH of those!!


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Holy Crap!


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Maybe look into installing supports (Completely supporting the underside of the entire compromised areas of the beam), to new concrete footings.


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## scowl (Jan 22, 2009)

The only good thing I can say is that those are very square and well-cut notches. When they installed plumbing in my house many decades ago, it's clear they used chisels, hatches, and possibly an ax on every piece of wood that got in their way of their pipes. Here it looks like they took a reciprocating saw to the sides and chiseled it out. I bet they wondered why the wood was so tough to get through.

I'm guessing it was a duct. The structural members I've seen that have been butchered for pipes were usually two diagonal cuts leaving a triangular cut for the pipe, not a square one. Why chisel when you don't have to?

Or maybe he thought square notches would demonstrate better workmanship.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

scowl said:


> The only good thing I can say is that those are very square and well-cut notches. When they installed plumbing in my house many decades ago, it's clear they used chisels, hatches, and possibly an ax on every piece of wood that got in their way of their pipes. Here it looks like they took a reciprocating saw to the sides and chiseled it out. I bet they wondered why the wood was so tough to get through.
> 
> I'm guessing it was a duct. The structural members I've seen that have been butchered for pipes were usually two diagonal cuts leaving a triangular cut for the pipe, not a square one. Why chisel when you don't have to?
> 
> Or maybe he thought square notches would demonstrate better workmanship.


Actually, square holes and notches...Although neat-looking...Are the worst thing you can do to a beam or any structural member. Loads are concentrated to the corners of a square, which can lead to failure. Round holes and rounded notches take less away from the beam because the loads distribute around the notch or hole better, structurally speaking.


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## scowl (Jan 22, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> Actually, square holes and notches...Although neat-looking...Are the worst thing you can do to a beam or any structural member.


Yes I should have put a  with my remark!


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Holy Crap!


i've seen worse......

DM


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## TazinCR (Jun 23, 2008)

Could he not use flat steel plates on each side or 3"-4" angle iron bolted to it? Would hold much more than wood.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Kadger, is there evidence that another beam intersected through these notches? Is there a footing below the notch?


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## kadgar (Sep 1, 2007)

*more info*

Thanks for all the feedback. Here is more info about this fun project. This house was built in 1907. It had "radiators' at one time. This might be where the pipes ran. The floor is around 2" concrete. Much of the work done on this house before I bought it was a joke, this being one example. Will a temp wall hold up everything above? If I read correctly, make the temp wall no more than 2' on both sides of the beam? How long should I make it? From the permanent center lolly all the way to the foundation wall? Studs 16"oc? The 2X8's mentioned earlier are actually 2" thick. Wouldn't newer wood be thinner than the original? Are lvl's exactly the thickness they state? i have *adjustable jack post - Adjusts from 8 ft. 4 in. to 4 ft.8 in. Tested to 9,100 lb. at maximum extension and 18,000 lb. at minimum extension.

*Will this be enough to raise the 3 floors above?


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

What kc says about square holes is SO true. I don't know about your US building codes, but here in Canada our code provides very specific info on round holes you may use and also where you may, or may not put them.
Anyway, the correct repair solution has already been posted, so no need to repeat that.


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