# faced or unfaced for this wall and ceiling



## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Hello my excellent folks. Today should be a simple one. I've turned a breezeway into a mudroom by dooring/walling off either end, and now i'm looking to insulate. 

looking at the photo, you can see it's aluminum all around, starting with the ceiling, i have access above there and it's just that sheet of aluminum, so i can drop whatever i like just above it. Question being, faced, or unfaced? Does the aluminum serve as the vapor barrier?

Next, the wall is aluminum siding with some half inch foil faced foam behind it then the original wood clapboard. I plan to drywall over this, preferably leaving the siding in place. Behind this wall is the garage, which i can open up the wall to and add insulation into the wall cavities. Same questions regarding insulation, faced or unfaced? 

As always, thank you.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Is the ceiling between conditioned spaces? 

As far as the wall, depends on the foam and what type of facers are on it.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

See photos

To the left is the unconditioned garage, to the right is the kitchen. The attic space above the 3 areas is all connected, however between the garage attic and breezeway attic is open air, while the breezeway to kitchen attic is roughly walled off.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

The foil facing is a class 1 vapor retarder so you don't really want any other vapor control layers for fear of preventing it from drying in either direction. 

Once you open up the roof part, take some pictures and I will make some recommendations based on what is in there and if there is any venting.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Thanks WoW,

i may have to make a video walkthrough to give a decent representation of the situation. 

to describe the kitchen attic a bit more:
there's a baffled bit on the siding, but it doesn't seem to be connected to the attic space (no daylight seen), and aside from the door i cut to access over the kitchen, there's no open airway between the breezeway attic and kitchen attic. I certainly could open up the space between to connect all the attic areas if advisable.

The insulation is just needed over the breezeway, which is open air to the garage attic. there's no sofit or planned venting there. i could close it off, or i could add some air intake baffle to the 6" siding just below the gutter in the photo, and perhaps a vent at the breezeway gable. I'm just spitballing here. Not knowing whether vented vs unvented is desired.

cheers
D


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

So you don't want to connect the garage attic to the house attic if the ceiling in the garage is not sealed from the garage.
Are going to heat the breeze way if not, why insulation. With out heat the vent is less important. 
Venting could be added as a vented drip edge but that needs some shingle work.
you might just put a vent in on the side wall just back of the gutter below the rafter height.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Yes, this is to be heated, that's really the whole reason we're here.

by your account, i should put drywall between the breezeway attic and garage attic. easy enough.

the area over the kitchen does not appear to be vented(the kitchen is an A frame perpendicular to the main cape A frame, the attics are not connected), but i'll ask this: if i go up there and turn off the flashlight, is it a safe bet there isn't ventilation if i don't see any daylight? that is what i recall last i was investigating the kitchen attic space.

so, the kitchen attic and breezeway attic should become one space, correct? and since they are conditioned spaces, there *should* be venting, which may not be the case. if true, it looks to me the easiest place to add an intake would be the area just below the gutter over the breezeway, and the only place for the top vent would be the gable. 

Being that the house has lived at least part of its years with an unvented attic above the kitchen, what issues should i look out for?

cheers
D


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Venting will keep the roof cooler in summer and prevent ice dams if you are in a colder zone. 
Moisture will get in there one way or another and venting dries that out and prevents mold.
Houses have worked for years yes but we are constantly adding insulation and tightening things up, so it is not always the same house.
Venting behind the gutter would be great if you can get it in there. 
For the top, best id the ridge vent that goes under the shingle across the peak or a couple box vents just on the back side of the peak so you don't see them.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

All this said, Let's come back to the original query:what insulation to put over the breezeway ceiling? Reminder that it's just sheet aluminum. Faced, paper side down?

Isolating the attic spaces can be done quickly, adding the vents and intakes, maybe won't get to till next season, anything to worry about here?

cheers
D


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Winter, the problem mostly would be heat coming off the outside wall and melting snow on the roof..


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Windows on Wash said:


> Is the ceiling between conditioned spaces?
> 
> As far as the wall, depends on the foam and what type of facers are on it.



i finally got up there. was concerned that photos would be confusing, so here's a 360 you can look around. the camera is sitting on a bridge i made to access the kitchen area from the garage. i'm poking up from the garage. You may need to click through to flicker to be able to look around the 360 properly

https://flic.kr/p/YU9VJn, on Flickr


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Another tidbit i neglected to ask: does anyone foresee an issue with drywalling directly over the aluminum siding? i could bite the bullet and rip it out, but figure to just leave it in there for the R value of the foam board in there. i'll have to predrill every screw to get through the aluminum, but can just use longer drywall screws to grab onto the wood clapboard behind the aluminum/foam. got plenty of drills lying around, so predrilling wouldn't be terrible for this size project. the other option is 1x2s horizontally sitting in the low points of the siding. Now that i'm saying that, it seems the more sensible route. 

cheers


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I would tear off the siding. 

The space that I am looking at in the attic is kind of a hybrid that could suffer a bunch of unintended consequences if you insulate without venting. 

In many cases, attics that are not intended to be conditioned are being conditioned and in the process, keeping the sheathing much closer to room temp and therefore do not form condensation. 

What concerns me about that space is that if you insulate, you will make the roof much colder and if you have any unchecked moisture movement into that attic...it will not be removed via convection and you WILL get condensation. 

Best bet is to ventilate that space properly and then air seal and insulate the attic floor.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Thanks WoW,

Could you clarify this statement: "keeping the sheathing much closer to room temp and therefore do not form condensation. "

It sounded like you were explaining an issue but then seemed to explain it as a non-issue

If i understand correctly, the main issue is during winter, the cold roof/sheathing comes into contact with moist heated indoor air, leaking up through the ceiling and forms condensation on the sheathing, so i need the venting to maintain an atmosphere in the attic close enough to the outside to avoid a dew point. Right so far?

It seems that my kitchen attic violates this, and perhaps i should remedy both at the same time? The easiest spot for intake vents are over the breezeway, while the kitchen attic has no easy intake options, so perhaps doing the intake at the breezeway, and vent on the opposite end of the kitchen using a method such as what neal suggested.

Please let me know if i'm getting this accurate. I'm going to draw up a plan, and some more photos, going to take a keen interest in the kitchen attic to see if there's any old mold.

as always, thank you


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

You are on the right track.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

All this being said, it sounds like paper faced is the right solution for the attic floor insulation, correct?

Re-reading your post, i'm wondering if you were referring to insulating the roof rafters, vs insulating the attic floor/breezeway ceiling(I'm doing the latter)


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

If the attic floor is properly air sealed, the vapor retarder level on the insulation is far less important.


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## DarrenLevine (Aug 3, 2016)

Seems a reply of mine may have gotten lost in the mix:

in the kitchen attic, it's a mess of old faced rock wool, should i take the time to clean it all out, or just lay unfaced r30 over it?

Similar situation in the main attic, old rock wool but newer comfort therm encapsulated r13 on top of it, just filling the 2x6 (maybe 2x8) cavities. Could r30 over all of it, but was concerned about those various vapor retarders currently in place. I understand that the old paper facing probably has degraded, but still, always looking for the experienced opinion on the matter.

cheers


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