# How To Solder Copper Pipes



## Termite

The pipe is not clean enough to solder, even when new. Sanding it or wire brushing it will clean off the oils. It'll also give a rough surface for the solder to really bite to.


----------



## Termite

Here's the pipe after brushing or rubbing with emery cloth. You should see about 1" of fresh copper.


----------



## Termite

Use the brush to clean the inside hubs of the fittings.


----------



## Termite

Then flux is applied to the fitting and the pipe. The way I see it, the stuff is cheap, so I use plenty. Pros probably use less. More isn't necessarily better, but a thorough coat on all surfaces is critical. Be sure it is free of sawdust or bristles from the flux brush. 

Put the fitting and the pipe together. Be aware that as soon as you heat it, it'll want to move because when the solder melts it gets a lot more viscous. So, when doing this, orient your fittings so gravity won't cause them to rotate on you.


----------



## Termite

For the record, this fitting rotated because I left it horizontal for photo purposes. I'd normally do this vertically whenever possible. 

Heat is applied to the fitting (not the pipe). The solder will be drawn into the flux TOWARD THE HEAT. So here, I'm heating the underside and the solder will be touched to the top side of the fitting hub.


----------



## Termite

I didn't get a picture of it, but I roll several inches of solder off the roll and use the roll as a handle to keep my hand far enough away that molten flux and solder won't drip on it. 

Apply the heat. Hold the torch head about 4" away. Watch for the flux to melt and start to boil. Just heat one area of the fitting...The heat will conduct to the entire fitting. You'll see the color of the copper sort of change a little bit, kind of like watching water freeze and expand on a very cold windshield. When you see that, time to apply solder and back the heat off. 

The solder is TOUCHED to the side of the fitting opposite the heat. If it melts instantly your fitting is hot enough and you can pull the torch away. Feed the solder into the joint until you see it come out the other side. I feed it in until a drip forms. It doesn't really take much because you're filling a very tiny gap.


----------



## Termite

In this picture you can see where I touched the solder to the fitting/pipe joint. THERE IS NO NEED TO MOVE THE SOLDER AROUND, JUST TOUCH IT IN ONE PLACE. This isn't welding. Any solder that you see on the outside of the joint is just extra and isn't the solder doing the work of keeping the water back.


----------



## Termite

At this stage I quickly wipe off the joint with a dry cloth rag. It will burn the heck out of you and the rag, so be careful.


----------



## Termite

Here's the underside of the fitting I just soldered. See how the solder started to form a drip when the joint got full?


----------



## Termite

Valves and other brass fittings...

They can be tricky for a first timer. Brass seems to take more heat than copper, probably due to the fact that it is thicker than the copper pipes and fittings more commonly soldered. 

With valves, be careful not to heat the guts if you can help it. Shower valves' inner workings should be removed before heating. You have to remember to orient the valve so that liquid solder doesn't run down into the valve and cause things not to close or parts not to fit.


----------



## skeeter 152

very good lesson! clean outside pipe inside fitting.lots of flux.heat attracts solder.thats the way i helped my son understand the basics


----------



## Termite

Sometimes people ask "can I re-heat the joint or add some solder if there is a pinhole leak?" My answer is always no. The pinhole leak is there for some reason, and globbing extra solder on the outside is a band aid. Leaks will form in areas where the flux completely melts out, so the solder just won't go there. Re-heating won't work most of the time. So, I usually advise re-heating and removing, cleaning the pipe, cleaning (or replacing) the fitting, and trying again.


----------



## Termite

Any water in the pipes will be drawn toward the heat you are applying. Do whatever you can to drain all the water out. You can't solder pipes with water in them. It cools the joint just enough, and will often cause a lousy seal resulting in a leak. 

There are ways to keep the water at bay when necessary. I use bread. There are commercially available products like the little gel-filled eggs they sell at the big box stores or more professional products like Jet Swet that are inserted into the pipe and removed after finishing. White bread formed into a doughball can be jammed a few inches into the pipe will hold the water and steam back, and will liquify into something resembling baby vomit instantly when water pressure is restored to the pipe. Just open a downstream valve to clear the line. Some people say to remove the aerators from the sinks or to let the toilet supply lines shoot into a bucket to avoid getting the bread into the fixtures. Personally I've found that it clears out within seconds and doesn't hang up in the fixtures. Common sense prevails...Don't use the crust and don't use any kind of grainy bread with seeds and chunks of anything. Its a great trick that a master plumber taught me years ago, and I've used it a hundred times with great success.


----------



## Termite

Hopefully some other folks will have some other tips or scenarios to make this thread more informative. :yes:


----------



## skeeter 152

was helping a friend do a quick get by fix and asked him for a piece of bread. he came back with one. the wife yelled down if you guys are hungry i can make sandwiches


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay

thekctermite said:


> Hopefully some other folks will have some other tips or scenarios to make this thread more informative. :yes:


I'll take The KCTermite up on that.

1. The purpose of sanding the outside of the copper pipe is not to clean it of oils. The purpose is to remove the copper oxide that forms on copper when it's exposed to air. That oxide film forms slowly at room temperatures, but almost instantaneously at soldering temperatures (or from about 350 to 450 deg. F, depending on the solder you're using.)
Copper is an orangy/gold colour, but Copper oxide is brown in colour, and it's the formation of a copper oxide film over the copper that causes new pennies to turn brown in time. Ditto for copper piping and everything else made of copper.

Oxygen atoms hold onto their outer electrons very tightly. Metal atoms, on the other hand are very loose with their outer electrons, and it's this difference that prevents metals from having a high affinity for oxygen or even metal oxides. Liquid metals, like molten solder, have a very high affinity for bare copper metal, but little to no affinity for copper oxide. In order to get the solder to stick properly to the copper of the pipe and socket, it's necessary to remove all the copper oxide from both AND prevent it from forming during the soldering process. Only then will there be enough capillary pressure drawing the heavy liquid solder into the joint to fill it completely. Any copper oxide film on the pipe or socket will prevent the molten solder from sticking to the copper oxide, resulting in a leaking soldered joint.

2. Soldering flux consists of petroleum jelly (which is what "Vaseline" is) with zinc cloride powder mixed into it. The purpose of the flux is threefold:
A) it prevents an oxide layer from forming on the bare copper
B) it cleans the bare copper of any remaining oxide on it, and
C) it promotes good flow of the solder by keeping the copper metal bare until it is displaced by the solder.

3. The petroleum jelly's job is to prevent oxygen from the air from coming into contact with the bare copper metal while the joint is being soldered. So, in that respect it merely acts as a physical barrier between the copper and the surrounding air. So, you can solder using Vaseline as flux, but the solder will only flow into the joint. It'll beed up on the surface of the copper pipe because the Vaseline outside the joint quickly burns off and exposes the bare copper metal to oxygen in the air.

To prove this to yourself, next time you solder a joint, sand an entire foot (12 inches) from the end of the pipe and flux that entire foot. After you solder, allow everything to cool and clean off the residual flux from that entire foot, you'll find that the entire 12 inches before the joint is clean and bare, just like it was before fluxing and soldering. The flux on the copper pipe prevented the pipe from oxidizing and discolouring as usually happens on sanded copper piping near the solder joint (or source of heat).

4. The zinc cloride acts like an acid. At soldering temperatures it dissolves any residual copper oxide in the joint that wasn't removed by sanding. It dissolves the copper oxide much more aggressively than the copper metal.

5. When you solder a joint, what actually happens is that the molten solder has a greater affinity for the bare copper metal than the flux does, and so it's CAPILLARY PRESSURE that draws the molten solder into the joint to displace the flux inside it. Once the molten solder is in the joint, something called "amalgamation" occurs in a very thin film at the solder/copper interface. That thin film consists of an alloy of the copper and solder that results when the two dissolve in one another. Some of the tin and antimony (or lead) atoms dissolve in the solid copper and some copper atoms dissolve in the molten solder right at the surface of the copper.

(The following was told to me by my metallurgy prof in University. I tried to find a website to confirm in Google, but was unable to.)

If you ever unsolder a joint, you'll find that you cannot completely remove the old solder from the end of the pipe by heating with a torch and wiping. That's because the melting point of the alloy formed at the amalgamation plane varies from that of solder on it's outside to that of copper on it's inside. So, the "solder" doesn't wipe off because it's not molten because it's no longer pure solder with the melting point of pure solder. 

6. Everything from sanding the copper pipes to adding zinc chloride to the flux is designed to prevent copper oxide from forming inside the joint. At soldering temperatures, that oxide layer will form instantaneously. So, if for some reason (like not allowing a path for the heated air inside the pipe to escape) the solder isn't drawn all the way around the joint, then adding flux and solder when the joint is hot will (at best) just plug up the leak in the solder joint. It won't end up filling the joint with solder. The reason why is that while you are soldering, the flux won't burn because there isn't any oxygen inside the joint for it to react with. If air inside the pipe expands and leaks out through the fluxed joint, the flux exposed to air will burn off, exposing the bare copper metal that will immediately form an oxide film over it. After that, the molten flux will NEVER bond properly to that oxide film because oxygen hordes it's electrons. The best that you can hope for is that you can plug the END of the leak in the joint with solder. But, that's just a leak waiting to happen.

7. So, how does this affect what you do? Understanding the process allows you to understand why it's seldom necessary to remove old solder from old pipes or sockets. If you unsolder a copper pipe from a socket, you're best bet is to NOT remove the solder from the socket or the end of the pipe. That solder in the socket or on the end of the pipe will protect the underlying bronze, brass or copper from oxidation. Just leave the solder on the end of the pipe or in the socket until you need the pipe or valve. Then, when you need that piece of pipe, just heat the end of the pipe and wipe the old solder off. If it's a valve, heat the socket of the valve and insert a piece of sanded and fluxed copper pipe into it until it goes into the socket, and then pull it out, thereby removing the old solder from the socket. (Repeat if necessary) Then clean the end of that pipe with steel wool or a piece of sandpaper to remove any oxides that may have formed while the pipe was cooling down. Brush out the socket. Flux the pipe end and the ID of the socket and fit them together (even if both appear to be still covered by solder). Now just heat and add enough solder to ensure the joint is full (by the formation of a drop of solder on the bottom of the joint as discussed by KCTermite). That solder joint will be just as strong and last just as long as had you gone to the trouble of using a new pipe and sanding the old solder out of the sockets of the old valve. In fact, it'd prolly last longer because by not sanding the old solder out of the sockets, you're not enlarging the ID of the socket.

PS:
To learn more about soldering and brazing copper, brass and bronze, go to the Copper Development Association's web site at:
http://www.copper.org
and click on the "Publications" link,
then click on the "Publications List" link
then RIGHT CLICK on the "Soldering/Brazing/Welding" link on the list on the LEFT column of links, and chose "Open in new Window".
Then download everything you want.


----------



## Termite

What he said. :yes:


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay

Here is a direct link to the Copper Development Association's download page for soldering, brazing and welding copper:

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/soldering.html

There's a 1.1 MB PDF file you can download that provides helpful tips on soldering and brazing copper.

There's an 8 page PDF file that gives step-by-step illustrated instructions on soldering and brazing copper tube and fittings.

There's also an 18 minute long video you can order for $25 on soldering and brazing copper tube.

And there are other paper pamphlets you can order for a small fee or PDF files you can download free.

Also, I forgot to mention a few things in my last post:

A) Experienced plumbers will often bark at me for telling people that it's OK to use the soldered end of a piece of copper pipe. They feel that's bad advice because they believe it's "safer" to start with new pipe. All I can say is that when I discussed the matter with the department head of "Piping Trades" at the local provincial trade school here in Winnipeg, "Red River Community College", he advised me that was standard plumbing practice. He also recommended cleaning and fluxing the pipe end to remove any oxides of lead, tin or antimony that may have formed, but it's not necessary to remove all of the old solder, especially from sockets which are much harder to remove that old solder from than pipes.
In my own case, whenever I have to remove a Brasscraft compression stop in order to remove a section of wall, I always solder the old valve body back on after the work is done using the procedure described above. I've never had a leak doing that.

B) It IS true that when you're soldering in a valve, it's best to remove the cartridge from the valve to protect it from the heat. The exception is when you're soldering in a ball valve. In that case, you're more likely to cause a leak by taking the ballvalve apart to remove the ball and seals and then putting it back together than you are by soldering the valve in as is.

When soldering ball valves, Just make sure that the valve is in the open position. Also, when brushing out the sockets on the valve with a fitting brush, drop a standard #12 flat washer into the socket before brushing. A #12 flat washer will have a 1/4" ID and a 5/8" OD, and it will prevent the steel bristles of the fitting brush from coming into contact with the teflon seals inside the valve. That ensures that the seals aren't damaged by the fitting brush.

C) Some valve manufacturers are now selling globe and gate valves that don't have a fiber washer or gasket between the bonnet nut and the valve body. They simply tighten up the bonnet nut so tight that the valve doesn't leak even with a metal-to-metal contact between the bonnet nut and valve body. And, of course, they tell the user to just solder the valve in when it's partially open to protect the washer from the heat. That's dumb because when the time comes to replace the washer, you're more likely to wreck the soft copper piping the valve is soldered into than remove that bonnet nut. And, after replacing the washer, then you somehow have to tighten the by-Geezus out of that bonnet to get a water tight metal-to-metal seal again (without wrecking the copper piping).

There's a better way. Before installing the valve, put it in a vice and remove the bonnet. Now, go to any place listed in your yellow pages under Pneumatics and Hydraulics that sells rubber O-rings and inquire about "teflon back-up rings". Teflon back-up rings are used to prevent the O-ring from extruding into the empty space around it. So, some teflon back-up rings will have a contour on one side of the ring, but most are simply machined from a tube of teflon and so they are flat on both sides. Tell the guy you want a teflon back-up ring without a contoured side.

Teflon back-up rings come in a vast array of sizes starting with ID's of 1/8 of an inch all the way up to 12 inches with widths (difference between outer radius and inner radius) of 1/16", 3/32", 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4 inch, and most places will also stock popular metric sizes as well. So, you can always find a teflon back-up ring to fit your valve and serve as a gasket between the valve body and bonnet nut to prevent leaks.

Also, if the bonnet nut on a valve has 8 sides, that generally means you're not supposed to remove it, and that generally means that there is no fiber washer or gasket between the valve body and the bonnet nut. If you're wanting to use this valve inside a wall as a bathroom water shut off valve, or any other place where you can't use a wrench to remove the bonnet nut, you can modify an 8 point socket to make a tool for removing and tightening the bonnet nut. Just look for an 8 point socket you can put in a lathe and machine down the points so that each point contacts the middle of a flat on the bonnet nut. Then you essentially have a flank drive socket (like a Snap-On) to loosen and tighten eight sided bonnet nuts.

The ratio to find the size of 8 point socket needed to fit over an 8 sided bonnet nut is:

cosine of 22 1/2 degrees or 0.92388

So, if the bonnet nut is 1 1/4 inch across the flats, you'd need a:

(1.25) X (0.92388) = 1.155 inch 8 point socket.

That works out to a 1 5/32 inch 8 point socket which you won't find anywhere. So, buy the next smaller size (1 1/8 inch) socket and have the points machined down on a lathe until it just fits over the bonnet nut.


----------



## skymaster

Termite; TUNES man u fergot da Tunes :laughing: and a doggie treat for da helper


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay

Skymaster:

Are you suggesting I'm TheKCTermite's "helper" and the doggie treat is for me?


----------



## Termite

Sit Nestor, sit! Gooooood boy. :laughing:

Nah, I think skymaster's referring to my little buddy in the first picture.


----------



## 47_47

Two points often overlooked.

Wipe the joints with a wet rag after soldering to remove the excess flux. Remaining flux will continue to etch (eat) the copper pipe.

Deburring/reaming of the cut edges of the pipe is also very important. The sharp edge will create turbulence in the water, causing friction and pipe wear.


----------



## skymaster

Nestor::whistling2::whistling2::lol:


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay

That's it.

I'm gone.


----------



## skymaster

no u knot u lurkin waitin fer your shot:yes::laughing: when i knot lookin BAM!!!!!!! Nestor got me OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wildie

I have a question! The code in my area requires that we would use 'silver' solder, rather than 'lead'. 
My question is, can I still use the 'Vaseline' paste that I have on hand, or does it require a special paste designed for silver?


----------



## bjbatlanta

Great "how to" KC! Wish I had learned the "bread trick" long before I did. It would have saved me much aggravation and "spouting of obscenities"! I noticed the yellow gas bottle in your picture of supplies. It might be worth mentioning that it is Mapp gas and burns hotter than regular propane. (And is available at the big box stores.) Melts the solder quicker. Something else I learned later in my plumbing career, which thankfully, is something I only attempt at home and in emergency situations for close family and friends. I always have a contact number for a REAL plumber in my phone book.....


----------



## jpelzer

This is probably the best thread I've read on this site so far... Very detailed 'how' and then well written and researched 'why'. And very limited anecdotes. I love it, thanks very much guys... I've stayed away from plumbing because most of my improvements END with fire... It seemed a Bad Idea to BEGIN with fire. But now understanding the chemical process and procedure, I feel I can tackle a first bathroom redo. Thanks!


----------



## Termite

bjbatlanta said:


> Great "how to" KC! Wish I had learned the "bread trick" long before I did. It would have saved me much aggravation and "spouting of obscenities"! I noticed the yellow gas bottle in your picture of supplies. It might be worth mentioning that it is Mapp gas and burns hotter than regular propane.


Thank you sir! I mentioned the mapp gas in post #1 but didn't mention how it gets hotter than propane. I like the stuff. :yes:


----------



## bjbatlanta

Sorry KC, I see that now. As usual, I was going for the "visuals" more than the "script". (Simple things for simple minds.) And hopefully we'll hear positive updates from "jpelzer". (Hope he's got the # for 911 "memorized" though....)


----------



## jpelzer

bjbatlanta said:


> (Hope he's got the # for 911 "memorized" though....)


I have a direct line. They're talking about fitting me with a GPS bracelet that sends my whereabouts whenever it detects that I'm on fire. That should speed things up. Not sure how to test that though.


----------



## [email protected]

*sweating (soldering) a ball valve*

WATCH OUT, most of the newer ball valves are plastic/nylon etc., it can't take any torch heat whatsoever. 

pop the bonnet off and keep the ball and stem safe. Put a bit of lube on the ball when you reassemble the valve, as a smaller valve may lose shape if heated to long. With MAPP gas, the fixture heats up much quicker, which is better. so don't keep the flame on it longer than needed. when the joint is full, you will know as the solder will just drip off. If the solder beads up outside the joint, you've burnt of all the flux. sweating pipes is actually very easy. just need to keep a couple things in mind, and remember to wipe the joint well afterwards. do NOT try and cool it too quickly.


----------



## Ron6519

Wildie said:


> I have a question! The code in my area requires that we would use 'silver' solder, rather than 'lead'.
> My question is, can I still use the 'Vaseline' paste that I have on hand, or does it require a special paste designed for silver?


 Lead solder hasn't been sold in stores in many years. About the only place you'd pick it up is at garage sales and at your Dad's house.
The solder paste sold today is also lead free.
The ,"vaseline" reference will be confusing to the newbies. You don't use that in soldering.
Ron


----------



## Wildie

Ron6519 said:


> Lead solder hasn't been sold in stores in many years. About the only place you'd pick it up is at garage sales and at your Dad's house.
> The solder paste sold today is also lead free.
> The ,"vaseline" reference will be confusing to the newbies. You don't use that in soldering.
> Ron


 Thanks for the reply Ron! 
The reason for my question was that I have a few containers of this 'flux' laying around and was thinking that I may as well toss 'em out! I have no lead solder to use it with!
I've never heard of someone referring to paste flux as 'vaselene' until I read it here in this thread!
Not only will it confuse the newbies, it confused me, as well!


----------



## Joe F

Great thread. Application and theory in one easy lesson!!! :thumbup:

I can do OK soldering 1/2, 3/4 and even 1", does anyone have any tips for success on the bigger stuff 1 1/4 and up?


----------



## skymaster

a minimum #5 tip and acetylene :}:} works well


----------



## Scuba_Dave

47_47 said:


> Wipe the joints with a wet rag after soldering to remove the excess flux. Remaining flux will continue to etch (eat) the copper pipe.


Sure, now ya tell me :laughing:


----------



## 47_47

Scuba_Dave said:


> Sure, now ya tell me :laughing:


Well Dave, you never asked. Let me tell you there is another item you must wipe after you're done.:jester:


----------



## Knucklez

this is how i unwind the solder.. notice how the end has been circled? this helps me reach _around_ the pipe when it is hot enough.

i hold onto the spool while soldering


----------



## Knucklez

a question.. but first a story, so sit down and listen to :wheelchair:

one time.. i realized my solder join sucked and i needed to touch it up cause it was leaking. so i opened a sink valve downstream used my air mattress pump to blow out the water. then i hit the pipe with some heat and tried to add more solder. unfortunately this did not work to stop the leak.. 

so i decided to remove the old 90 elbow and start over, maybe with a pre-soldered copper fitting (i like these!).

so i heat up the elbow and start hitting it lightly with a pair of plyers until the elbow pops off.. but it came of with a SPLASH OF HOT SOLDER that hit me in my eye.

and this is why i tell people i will never get contact lenses, my glasses have saved my eye sight more than once!

this leads me to my question..what are your safety tips with respect to soldering?

Knucklez


----------



## Knucklez

how to solder against gravity..

ok, i'm not a pro, so this is how i did it. but it is reliable, easy, and has never leaked (knocks on wood).

1) buy copper fitting that is "PRE-SOLDERED". it costs 50% more, so that 66cent copper elbow is 99cent. they sell at HD and no doubt everywhere else.

2) you still want to add flux because of the benefits. apply heat until you see the solder melt and it flows to the edge where you can see it. 

3) wipe joint off when it cools down.

4) done

Knucklez


----------



## J187

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but a good trick to knowing when you've heated enough for the solder is that the flame will start to give off a green hue...


----------



## handyman78

One item I always try to remember and tell friends when working on home projects- especially plumbing- Don't work late night or Sunday eves- By experience only work on plumbing when the supply stores are open! I have had my occasions where I had to keep the water off until the store opened the next morning for replacement parts.


----------



## 47_47

handyman78 said:


> One item I always try to remember and tell friends when working on home projects- especially plumbing- Don't work late night or Sunday eves- By experience only work on plumbing when the supply stores are open! I have had my occasions where I had to keep the water off until the store opened the next morning for replacement parts.


Best advice so far.


----------



## Wildie

J187 said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned, but a good trick to knowing when you've heated enough for the solder is that the flame will start to give off a green hue...


 That reminds of a camp fire trick that we used to do years ago!
We drilled many, many holes all around a piece of 1 1/2" copper water pipe!
When this is placed in a camp fire, it gives off emerald green flames!
Something to amuse the kids! (grin)


----------



## SozoForce

*Solderless repair on a coupling joint*

I have tried soldering and found Rescue tape or the InstaClamp to work quick to repair leaks on solder joints on my copper pipes.
www.rescuetape.com or www.instaclamp.com

Sure saved me a lot of time and money and from paying a plumber extra after I screwed up the job. Oh yeah my wife likes the fact that she didn't have to go the whole weekend without hot water.

Enjoy!

:thumbup:


----------



## louwatters

I'm not an expert in soldering, but I did recently read some good articles on the subject. there's one on {link removed - please stop posting the same links to try to drive people to your site} basic techniques as well as an article on{link removed - please stop posting the same links to try to drive people to your site}. I'm just starting to learn my way around this stuff so I'm no help myself, but maybe these will help point you in the right direction.


----------



## Sir MixAlot

thekctermite said:


> Here's a very basic pictorial lesson on soldering copper pipe together. I'll hit on the high points...


 


Thanks for taking the time to post all this great info.:thumbsup:


----------



## VelvetFoot

Nice thread. I had a heck of a time (gave up) sweating some copper pipe a while ago. Prep was good, got new solder, flux, etc. It just wouldn't work for me. Years ago, the lead solder was easy as pie. I got a MAPP torch, and told myself I'd practice, but still haven't. 

Is MAPP the key for the 'new' solder?


----------



## Termite

VelvetFoot said:


> Is MAPP the key for the 'new' solder?


No, not at all. Propane is more commonly used. Mapp gas is hotter...Once you get the hang of it mapp gas is great but it certainly won't make or break you.

If you failed at soldering I'd look toward two things first off:
1) water or steam in the lines. Even if there is water downstream or upstream it will migrate to the heated joint and prevent you from succeeding. The bread dough trick works wonders to deal with this.
2) unclean fittings and pipes. Gotta use a wire brush on both.


----------



## Termite

Sir MixAlot said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post all this great info.:thumbsup:


Glad some folks are getting some use out of my info and the subsequent tips from others! :yes:


----------



## gbwillner

Any advise on the use of a heat gun instead of a torch to heat the solder?

THX


----------



## Ron6519

gbwillner said:


> Any advise on the use of a heat gun instead of a torch to heat the solder?
> 
> THX


 The advice would be not to use it, because it won't work. Torchs are pretty cheap and have a low learning curve. If you're soldering 1/2" and 3/4", you can use a small propane or mapp gas unit. With larger pipe sizes it's problematic.
Ron


----------



## VelvetFoot

This thread is old but I got notified so I thought I'd chime in once more.
I found the secret! I got a blister pack by Oatey that came with self-tinning flux and solder that said it was just as easy to use as the old stuff, and it was! I think the key was the self-tinning flux.


----------



## Scuba_Dave

I've always used a damp rag to wipe the solder right after finishing
I noticed on one pipe that there is green "residue" - must be left over flux

I've also pre-tinned (soldered) pipes before putting the fitting on
Once the pipe slips in I add a touch more solder & it's good


----------



## gbwillner

Ron6519 said:


> The advice would be not to use it, because it won't work. Torchs are pretty cheap and have a low learning curve. If you're soldering 1/2" and 3/4", you can use a small propane or mapp gas unit. With larger pipe sizes it's problematic.
> Ron


Why not? The heat guns heat up to 1000 degrees, and from what I understand, the solder melts at 240 degrees. I saw a guy who said he does it without problems- but I really haven't seen too much info about it. I just bought a milwaukee heat gun (570/1000 degrees) hoping I could also use if for this purpose (in addition to others)- it even comes with an attachment for soldering pipe (hook nozzle).
Here it is-
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=8980&CategoryName=SC:+Heat+Guns

Just wondering if anyone had tried this- otherwise will go with the torch.

Thanks.


----------



## Ron6519

gbwillner said:


> Why not? The heat guns heat up to 1000 degrees, and from what I understand, the solder melts at 240 degrees. I saw a guy who said he does it without problems- but I really haven't seen too much info about it. I just bought a milwaukee heat gun (570/1000 degrees) hoping I could also use if for this purpose (in addition to others)- it even comes with an attachment for soldering pipe (hook nozzle).
> Here it is-
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=8980&CategoryName=SC:+Heat+Guns
> 
> Just wondering if anyone had tried this- otherwise will go with the torch.
> 
> Thanks.


 My heat gun has no such option. If yours did, you might have included that info in the post.
Try it on a scrap piece before the actual work.
Ron


----------



## skymaster

tho a heat gun may well be able to solder pipe I for One do NOT want to have to run an EXTENSION CORD a gazillion feet long and thru obstacles to get to a pipe :}:} I take my Mapp or Acetylene B tank. way way easier :whistling2:


----------



## Red Squirrel

That was a useful tutorial. I've never done it before, but been thinking of trying, and water pipes scare me more then anything else as far as DIY so I want to make sure I do it the right way!


----------



## skymaster

Squirrel: CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN AD INFINITUM !!!!!
once all parts are cleaned DO NOT TOUCH THE AREA with your hands, apply flux to ALL parts,make sure all pipes are bottomed into the fittings, heat AWAY from the joint and draw the solder into the joint, it will suck right into and run thru by itself and you will see it start to drip out, keep a rag with you and once soldered gently WIPE the joint. :yes: See it is that EZ. After a few hundred times it becomes second nature :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Red Squirrel

skymaster said:


> Squirrel: CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN AD INFINITUM !!!!!
> once all parts are cleaned DO NOT TOUCH THE AREA with your hands, apply flux to ALL parts,make sure all pipes are bottomed into the fittings, heat AWAY from the joint and draw the solder into the joint, it will suck right into and run thru by itself and you will see it start to drip out, keep a rag with you and once soldered gently WIPE the joint. :yes: See it is that EZ. After a few hundred times it becomes second nature :laughing::laughing:


Yeah I'm sure it becomes easy and less "scary". I used to feel a bit the same way about electrical and now I'm doing it like 2nd nature. The other day was totally random. "it's kinda dark in this room" a minute latter I'm running a new socket from the existing light and have more light within half an hour. :laughing:

What scares me with water pipes is the possible pending disaster if I screw up, but don't screw up bad enough for immediate issues. I have servers in my basement. Guess I'm just paranoid.


----------



## Termite

gbwillner said:


> Why not? The heat guns heat up to 1000 degrees, and from what I understand, the solder melts at 240 degrees. I saw a guy who said he does it without problems- but I really haven't seen too much info about it. I just bought a milwaukee heat gun (570/1000 degrees) hoping I could also use if for this purpose (in addition to others)- it even comes with an attachment for soldering pipe (hook nozzle).
> Here it is-
> http://www.milwaukeetool.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=8980&CategoryName=SC:+Heat+Guns
> 
> Just wondering if anyone had tried this- otherwise will go with the torch.
> 
> Thanks.


Go with the torch. It is tried and true and inexpensive for a basic model that'll get the job done. Plus it is fun to melt things with fire. :laughing: The idea is to get the fitting hot in a hurry, not to warm it up slowly. If too much time is taken...No matter how much heat you have...The flux will boil right out. 

If heat guns worked for soldering copper pipes you'd see professional plumbers using them (and you don't). It would certainly be cheaper than a professional turbotorch and the associated gases and bottles that they have to pay to refill.


----------



## Scuba_Dave

Can you refill the small propane & Mapp bottles?
Or are they just disposable ?


----------



## Ron6519

Scuba_Dave said:


> Can you refill the small propane & Mapp bottles?
> Or are they just disposable ?


The ones sold around here are not refillable. It should specify the parameters on the cannister.
Ron


----------



## speedster1

Most soldering manuals state to wipe the solder joint with the dry rag imediately after soldering it. But my Dad always kept a soaking wet rag nearby and imediately after soldering would toss the rag onto the joint and you'd hear a sizzle. He's then take it and wipe the joint. 

Are their negatives to using a wet rag vs a dry one? Will cooling the joint too fast cause problems or is this just one of the "To each his own" situations?


----------



## Wildie

speedster1 said:


> Most soldering manuals state to wipe the solder joint with the dry rag imediately after soldering it. But my Dad always kept a soaking wet rag nearby and imediately after soldering would toss the rag onto the joint and you'd hear a sizzle. He's then take it and wipe the joint.
> 
> Are their negatives to using a wet rag vs a dry one? Will cooling the joint too fast cause problems or is this just one of the "To each his own" situations?


 I have always used a wet rag to wipe soldered joints! In over 50 years, I have never had reason to believe that it led to a joint failure!
I had joints slip/remove befoe it has set and had to re-do the job!
Cooling with a wet rag minimizes the chance of the joint moving!


----------



## bjbatlanta

Scuba_Dave said:


> Can you refill the small propane & Mapp bottles?
> Or are they just disposable ?


I bought an adapter somewhere (Northern Industrial maybe??) to refill the small propane bottles for camp stove/lanterns. It screws into a regular 20lb bottle for the grill and you screw the small bottle to the other end. I would guess the threads on the bottles for soldering are the same. The Mapp gas would have to be filled at some sort of industrial gas supply/ welding supply and I don't think they'll refill the little bottles you buy at HD and Lowes.....


----------



## imayearin

I've always been told to lightly wrap ball valves with a wet rag. It seems to keep actual valve cooler.


----------



## Chokingdogs

Eastwood sells a heat absorbing paste, designed for auto bodywork, to keep welding heat from spreading across panels and warping them. I've always though that might be a good recipe for "coating" valves as a preventative against the heat damaging them. My concern though was it would be too effective, and absorb so much heat such that the valve never gets hot enough to properly solder the joint?


----------

