# Remove kitchen walls below Fink truss attic, load bearing or not?



## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

I am trying to determine if the walls I want to remove are load bearing. I suspect they are not because the adjacent room is unsupported for the entire span of the house (living and dining rooms), except for support from the adjacent exterior/garage wall.

The house is 40ft long with Fink trusses spaced 2ft on center spanning 24ft perpendicular the the 40ft length. Two level house, basement is over halfway above ground. The truss bottom chords appear to be in 2 12ft lengths joined at the middle. I didn't think to measure the size, 2x4 or 2x6, I'll let you guess in the pictures.

From my initial research, the trusses in the attic appear to be designed to not need the kitchen walls below for support. Attached are sketches of the layout and pictures of the structures in question.

Also, how do I go about getting the required permit/inspection/engineer etc... if necessary to remove these walls?

The specific walls I want removed are outlined in yellow on the 3D model that has color in it. Also, it is the wall with the fridge, and range in real life, and the remaining wall that helps form the walkways in/out of the kitchen area.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

One more picture of the full spanning room.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The kitchen appears to have a vaulted ceiling so that has a story that you have to figure out. If the room next to it under the dame trusses you may have a bearing wall.

But you will fail inspection for the weight you have stored in the trusses. The trusses are not rated for the floor never mind the storage.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> The kitchen appears to have a vaulted ceiling so that has a story that you have to figure out. If the room next to it under the dame trusses you may have a bearing wall.
> 
> But you will fail inspection for the weight you have stored in the trusses. The trusses are not rated for the floor never mind the storage.


The kitchen does not have a vaulted ceiling. The look is probably an artifact of the angle I took the picture at. Normal, flat 8ft high ceilings.

Thanks for pointing out the attic junk, that is on its way out. I'm not really a fan of attic storage.

The truss webs do not land on the bottom chord directly above a wall, but I can still see the possibility of the wall supporting them in some way.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> The kitchen does not have a vaulted ceiling. The look is probably an artifact of the angle I took the picture at. Normal, flat 8ft high ceilings.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the attic junk, that is on its way out. I'm not really a fan of attic storage.
> 
> The truss webs do not land on the bottom chord directly above a wall, but I can still see the possibility of the wall supporting them in some way.


The truss if self supporting but I would not remove a wall until you have cleared the storage up there. 
I read picture pretty good, there is a slope over the fridge and stove.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> The truss if self supporting but I would not remove a wall until you have cleared the storage up there.
> I read picture pretty good, there is a slope over the fridge and stove.


All four corners are 8ft high. It must be an illusion from the picture, I was standing in the room. Unless I have the wrong definition of a vaulted ceiling, I'm no expert.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> All four corners are 8ft high. It must be an illusion from the picture, I was standing in the room. Unless I have the wrong definition of a vaulted ceiling, I'm no expert.


 The corner is about 6" above the door opening and the ceiling is 15" above the door opening , that is a slope, tat is a vaulted ceiling.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> The corner is about 6" above the door opening and the ceiling is 15" above the door opening , that is a slope, tat is a vaulted ceiling.


Here are some more pics, the ceiling is parallel to the door opening. The original picture has an odd perspective. I see what you mean, but the cabinets above the fridge are mounted higher than the door opening, it just doesn't look like it at the angle I took the picture (same height above as with the right side door opening).


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> Here are some more pics, the ceiling is parallel to the door opening. The original picture has an odd perspective. I see what you mean, but the cabinets above the fridge are mounted higher than the door opening, it just doesn't look like it at the angle I took the picture (same height above as with the right side door opening).


Now I believe. I have never seen a picture so off like that.:biggrin2:


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## alexplieu (Aug 18, 2018)

Any updates? Did you remove those two walls?


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

I decided to focus on other parts of the house, but the kitchen is now next on the list (or close to it).

I have removed everything from the attic. I only store empty product boxes up there now, or extremely light weight stuff 

The wall that runs parallel to the attic fink trusses appears to be under a bottom chord, so I am not 100% sure it is not load bearing (would be 100% sure its not if it wasn't under the truss).

The wall that runs perpendicular to the trusses is shimmed (in some areas, not shimmed in others). This seems to suggest that it is not a load bearing wall. Furthermore, since the entire living room (next to the kitchen, see previous posts for layout) is spanned (unsupported, no interior walls) by trusses without a wall, this seems to suggest that the wall in question does not bear any load.

I am still in the planning phase, and will likely only remove non-bearing walls to avoid the expense/design considerations of an engineered beam for now. Worst case, I would create a "window" if maintaining support is necessary.

Here are pictures form the attic perspective.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

The perpendicular wall in question is adjacent to a hallway that is 3ft wide. I didn't pull up the plywood in the attic above this wall to get a better look, but I got a picture of the shim used in one instance for comparison, if it helps.

Also, I think Nealtw answered this in post #5, but want to be sure, as load bearing or not changes my plans pretty drastically.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You have no load bearing walls other than the exterior walls.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

This 2x4 has been added as drywall backing, when the truss is more than a few inches from the wall, backing is added to screw the end or side of the sheet too.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You will find this kind of stuff in most house but it is not right and the 2x4 on the left may have to be adjusted to get a more level ceiling or a ceiling that will look more level. Notice that the truss is not touching the wall. But it is nailed there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

2 bearing trusses like yours should be allowed to move up and down seasonally as such should not be directly nailed to the wall . 

But with out nailing them to the wall the walls will move, there is a clip for that.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Perfect. Off to the drawing board I go!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The clip in the green circle is the truss lift clip, and the clips in red are a newer improvement that allows the drywall people to hang the drywall to the side of the wall.
With those they could do away with the drywall backing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

So yes you can remove all the walls you want to, and to get the ceiling to match on both sides of the missing walls you may have to adjust some crap that was nailed to the trusses for the ceiling when the house was built.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Great!

Now as a followup about planning on what I can do with the island...

I am thinking of putting a range or built in cooktop/oven in the island. Most likely will be induction (electric), but there is a small possibility I might consider a gas setup.

Either way, I will need a vent fan. Would I be able to attach that to the ceiling? I assume for the induction route, a lighter fan would suffice, while a heavier one might be required for a gas cooktop. Is it feasible to support/mount the exhaust fan to the existing structure, or would I have to sister the truss chords, some other method, or is none of this an option?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> Great!
> 
> Now as a followup about planning on what I can do with the island...
> 
> ...


 You can add a level 2x4 to the upright in the trusses across 4 or 6 trusses
Then add a plywood gusset to tie the top and bottom cord. 

The plywood moves the load to the top cord and the 2x4s spread the load to the neighbours.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Perfect. I have a fighting chance then. Seems a lot easier than sistering.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> Perfect. I have a fighting chance then. Seems a lot easier than sistering.


We did one house with a center of room gas insert with a big wood box on the roof with fake stone to look like a chimney and this what the engineer called for.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Is notching permitted for trusses?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

huesmann said:


> Is notching permitted for trusses?


No, I did see that some one notched for the plywood. I am not sure how excited to get over those.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

I hope it is/was in 1980 when the house was built. There's tons of notches for wiring throughout the attic. At least they used nail plates... Unless the floor up there was added after initial construction. One more thing to add to the list of stuff I am not particularly fond of in this house.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> I hope it is/was in 1980 when the house was built. There's tons of notches for wiring throughout the attic. At least they used nail plates... Unless the floor up there was added after initial construction. One more thing to add to the list of stuff I am not particularly fond of in this house.


That was done after the fact, it would never have passed.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

gslenk said:


> Now as a followup about planning on what I can do with the island...
> I am thinking of putting a range or built in cooktop/oven in the island.
> Either way, I will need a vent fan.


I might think about not in the island, as that is the main circulation route across, is viewed from the living, exhaust will block view to the back windows, and you are trying to eliminate the dining room so you need island space for sitting?

Also, do you have any need to think about a doorway to a future deck for your raised ranch?


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Right now, I am thinking of a slightly smaller L-shape. View to the windows shouldn't be blocked too bad, especially compared to how the existing wall blocks the window. The stove top would have 18" on each side except the front.

Island would have similar dimensions as the wall removed, 72"x42".

I haven't committed to eliminating the dining area yet, but doing so would certainly warrant a larger island. 

Here are some models of what I am thinking.

A door simply wont fit, unless I shrink a window, and I think a deck makes the back yard too busy and possibly be too high (~6-7ft off the ground). There is door in the walk out basement though.

My design constraints are loosely as follows:
1) Keep sink plumbing in same general location since it would require pretty intense redesign to move plumbing. Which might also affect how I am planning for future basement improvements.
2) Fridge no longer in the center (where wall was) seems OK between windows. I did consider that corner you stuck it in (bottom left) but doesn't leave much room for sink/DW.
3) Can't really imagine a stove near a window.

I think this layout is the winner for now, but changing one thing pretty much changes everything  It also seems less radical/out there than my other ideas.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

gslenk said:


> Right now, I am thinking of a slightly smaller L-shape. . . .


Ok, was just going off the long counter in post #1. Just food for thought, "usually" 

Sinks are at windows:
- the view
- most used area, so no cabinet at your forehead
- empty counter at window may be covered with small appliances/decor

Ranges are not good at skinny seating islands:
- splatter/steam/mess
- hood
- prep may overtake seating counter
- main circulation running by the island

If you have a large kitchen or multiple islands, anything's game. In a small kitchen, efficiency of layout is key and what people expect. Deviating from that, even if "custom," starts to become "odd." It'd be a shame to spend tens of thousands on cabinets, counters, flooring, lighting, appliances for an "odd" layout rather than spending $50 on PVC to redo the plumbing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You still need the built in oven and microwave.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Well, to sister the floor joists, (either for an abundance of strength, or as a necessity if I want to tile) it looks like the basement ceiling drywall is likely coming down anyway, so moving the sink to the window might be possible. I am also going to overhaul the drain plumbing anyway to finish removing all the cast iron from the house. That and the adjacent bathroom has S-traps and other sketchy crap. 

The issues I see about a sink under the window:
1) Horizontal in-wall drain routing. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I cannot bore 2+ inch holes (2.5" in the case of 2" pvc) in exterior load bearing studs in the wall for the horizontal portions of the drain line.

2) If I can get past #1 somehow, the center of the window is 83" from an interior wall, and a few more feet on top of that to the original vent location. I would feel OK running a relief vent in the interior wall of 1.5" pvc.

3) If somehow I do manage a legit solution for #1 and #2, then there will be the relatively minor issue of running another chase on the basement ceiling, right above an exterior door. I could probably make that part work if boring through joists (not to mention actually getting pipe in there...) is not an option.

What info am I missing for ya'll to give me some tips on making a sink under the window actually work (or are the issue I presented actually easy to overcome)?

If it helps, the island is not intended to be a seating area in the most recent plan.

I am cooking up some more models to reflect your suggestions (also to address the oven and microwave)... :smile:


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

So here is where everything would go, assuming the sink under a window is not an option.

Blue: Sink (20 inch wide in model, likely will actually be 30" wide)
Yellow: Built in Microwave
Green: Dishwasher
Purple: Fridge
Red: Stove, built in oven underneath.

Bonus points: That orange wall on the left, should it be removed to expose the edge of the counter? I am leaning towards yes. But what if I end up putting a fridge there (if I can get the sink under the window...)? Seems like it should stay for a cleaner fridge install. Or does it not matter what happens, tear that little wall down?


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

And this is a quick and dirty of how I would lay out the sink under the window. Maybe omit the island, in favor of a real dining area, don't know. I'm having a hard time talking myself out of the previous plan... mainly due to lack of a better option. Maybe y'all could mark up rough locations of where you would put stuff in (or describe it) and I'll try to make up a real model. I'm out of time for fussing with it today.

Here is the layout. The 114" dimension is actually 9ft. Or 9' 4.5" if that little section of wall is chopped down as previously mentioned.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

gslenk said:


> And this is a quick and dirty of how I would lay out the sink under the window.


I would do this layout. A drawing can mask the size of a room. In reality, you have a very small area to work with. This layout makes it more open and the whole area of 3 rooms will feel larger by getting the fridge and hood to the back wall.

On this layout I would remove the fridge wall and just have a cabinet end panel. A full-height decorative hood. A 3" or 6" filler next to the stove in the corner. Dead-end wall cabinet from corner to window, maybe a glass door wall cabinet between the windows, all 42" high. Big seating islands are probably the most popular amenity asked for since the 80s, you have the size so utilize it for that. 

I have a house with the exact same layout (except dimensions are a little bigger and the floor overhangs the lower level). I assume the waste/vent stack is along that kitchen wall. The sink lines do not have to be in the exterior wall, they can come up into the cabinet from below.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

or .............


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Thanks for the ideas!

So to recap... priorities seem to be:
1) Get the sink under the window.
2) Get some kind of island (not sure if I'll go standard counter height, or taller "bar" type height)
3) Get the fridge and stove/oven/microwave on a wall
4) Tear down that last sliver of wall, finish cabinets (or wherever ends up there) accordingly.

Any other general tips, while I try to find time to work up some models?

About my initial sink issues/panic... I have given it some thought, does this plan sound "right"? Hopefully I can get it across in words (red line in attachment):

Run the sink drain (to the left side of the sink) between the back of the cabinets, and in front of the wall (26" counter top, 24" cabinets) Cut out a line of drywall, possibly notch studs a little (up to 1/2") if necessary to accommodate drain pipe. Vent will angle up into the exterior wall stud cavity (angle >45 degrees) and go up into the attic to either go out the roof, or tie in with existing venting. Drain will continue over and either drop through the floor, or run over to the bathroom and tie in with drains there. Does that sound like a legit solution? I'd rather not bump/fur the walls out. Can I notch exterior load bearing studs, and window cripple/king studs? Should I try to get a 2" drain, or just go with 1.5"?

PS, I really hate corner cabinets, but at least one seems necessary. I do appreciate Neal's layout (a new, fresh idea) but I'll have to play with it, since it seems to isolate the kitchen area a bit, and add an extra corner cabinet.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The corner cupboard could be accessible from the dining room side.
A 2" pipe give you more distance to the stack and vent. 

I would move the vent to the right of the window and just run it thru the back of the cupboard, with the vent there you can go down with the drain below the floor.
Or the vent on the left and move the DW to the right. then the drain could go in the toe kick over to the bathroom. Or right thru the back of the cupboard. 

Don't notch the studs


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

gslenk said:


> 2) Get some kind of island (not sure if I'll go standard counter height, or taller "bar" type height)
> 3) Get the microwave on a wall
> 
> PS, I really hate corner cabinets, but at least one seems necessary.


The island is your prep, display, and eating area. Keeping it all one height makes it multi-functional. You can still sit at a 36" high counter but a sliver of 12" bar height length dedicates that part for only seating.

Your budget and look may determine the microwave. Cheapest is sit it on the counter. Next is an exhaust combo over the stove. Then in-cabinet, maybe in the island.

The sink window layout you show has no corner cabinet. It has a blind cabinet in the corner. You would put a minimum 3" filler next to the stove to allow it to open without interfering with adjacent door pulls. You could also do a 6" spice pull-out cabinet. Or wider drawer base if you reduce the cabinet next to the fridge.

Plumbing, you have a beam underneath parallel with the hall/fridge wall. You "may" have the option of running between joists back to the center beam, where dropping down there and over to the stack just means a little bit wider soffit.


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

I would do whatever it took to put the sink by the window and run the drain line to connect to the main drainage line for the drain. Even removing as section of the subfloor, preferably in the area where the new cabinets will sit, would be worthwhile. 



The drain for a kitchen sink can be anywhere under the cabinet and it is commonly done into the wall for convenience with new construction. I would never run it horizontally across the walls as this is inviting trouble. 



It is OK to make a hole in a joist if it is not in the middle third section of the board.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Calson said:


> I would do whatever it took to put the sink by the window and run the drain line to connect to the main drainage line for the drain. Even removing as section of the subfloor, preferably in the area where the new cabinets will sit, would be worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, not in the middle third of the length of the joist. Closer to the walls the middle third of the height is the best place.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Well, the simple/stove wall lines up nicely. But the sink wall is gonna need some creativity. Am I right to force the sink to be centered on the window at all costs? As I fight the temptation to slide the sink over to align near the left side of the window, which would solve the ~3" gaps problem, and give me my 21" wide trash pullout between the fridge and sink. I could always align the fixtures to center on the window... (devil's advocate speaking)

30" (or 36", leaning towards 30) on the sink cab width.
38"x 38" corner cab width on each back edge.
36" cab for stove top
24" hole for DW
Still need 21" cab for pull out trash, would be nice to have this between fridge and sink.
Planning on a 36" wide fridge.

Oven looks like it will need to be in the island.

Haven't started playing with alternate fridge locations (like left wall), but that doesn't look promising, since I have 36" to play with and don't want it that close to the stove. I could go with a smaller fridge in the same spot (30"-33") and put a beverage fridge in the island... or is that teetering on "unconventional"?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

lain:...............


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

That sounds like a vote for an island stove top  And the picture is not too far off from the overall layout of that area of my house.

I'll try to get a set of plans up for various scenarios, and I'll let you guys who actually do/done this stuff pick apart my plans, and help me to avoid a disaster layout


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> That sounds like a vote for an island stove top  And the picture is not too far off from the overall layout of that area of my house.
> 
> I'll try to get a set of plans up for various scenarios, and I'll let you guys who actually do/done this stuff pick apart my plans, and help me to avoid a disaster layout


A friend had an island gas cook top with a down draft fan set up that went out thru the floor. He never complained about.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

gslenk said:


> 30" (or 36", leaning towards 30) on the sink cab width.


With 30", you have less options for double-bowl sinks.



gslenk said:


> 38"x 38" corner cab width on each back edge.


Why is it 38"? 36" unless you are going with IKEA or something? I thought you hated corner cabinets. Google "corner blind cabinet."



gslenk said:


> 36" cab for stove top


A 36" range would be a 6-burner pro style. Are you sure you don't mean a 30" range? Also, just to clarify what you are using, there is: "range" (top/oven combo in 1 appliance), "range top" or "cooktop" (just the slide-in burners, oven elsewhere), "wall oven" (slide-in separate). 

Selecting and paying big $$ for a 36" range means it's a cook's kitchen, therefore the cabinets need to be on par and the layout is even more critical to do it professionally, not a DIY scheme. And you need space, which you don't have.



gslenk said:


> Still need 21" cab for pull out trash, would be nice to have this between fridge and sink.


You can do a 12" cabinet for a single bin pull-out (if frameless). Or 18" cabinet for a dual-bin pull-out (with frame).



gslenk said:


> put a beverage fridge in the island... or is that teetering on "unconventional"?


See "cook's kitchen" above, and you just don't have much room.



gslenk said:


> Planning on a 36" wide fridge.


Your options are generic 36", 33", or 30" for the floor space, but you probably have the most options if you want a cabinet over it at 36".



gslenk said:


> Oven looks like it will need to be in the island.


Not for me. You have a really small kitchen, dining, and living. I'll pull the Stadry card and say I only do this for a living.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

3onthetree said:


> With 30", you have less options for double-bowl sinks.


I'm not really a fan of double bowl. I like to fit big stuff like sheet trays in the sink with elbow room. Probably just personal bias, unless at least one of the double bowls is well over 20" wide, but that is likely too big for this kitchen. Again mostly ignorance on my part of not being accustomed to non-restaurant sized double bowls.



3onthetree said:


> Why is it 38"? 36" unless you are going with IKEA or something? I thought you hated corner cabinets. Google "corner blind cabinet."


It is in fact because of IKEA. For now, until I work up the courage/budget for "real" cabinets. I have considered a corner blind. If IKEA has one, or if I can adapt one (haven't checked, but will), I might take that into consideration to see how well it would fit. I know I said I hated... but if a corner has to happen, I think a lazy susan for misc. stuff would be the lesser of my demons.



3onthetree said:


> A 36" range would be a 6-burner pro style. Are you sure you don't mean a 30" range? Also, just to clarify what you are using, there is: "range" (top/oven combo in 1 appliance), "range top" or "cooktop" (just the slide-in burners, oven elsewhere), "wall oven" (slide-in separate).


Not a range. Cook top. Most likely induction burners. I'm sold on induction, I have used it for years and find it an acceptable substitute for gas. I keep getting tempted to go gas though, but not a range. I know 36" wide ranges don't exist in a realistic/residential sense. 30" induction feels too cramped. I like to cook. I hope I never said range. If I was considering a range in the island, it would be 30".



3onthetree said:


> Selecting and paying big $$ for a 36" range means it's a cook's kitchen, therefore the cabinets need to be on par and the layout is even more critical to do it professionally, not a DIY scheme. And you need space, which you don't have.


Could't agree more.



3onthetree said:


> You can do a 12" cabinet for a single bin pull-out (if frameless). Or 18" cabinet for a dual-bin pull-out (with frame).


I took some measurements, and I agree, I have downsized my allotment for a double trash/recycle pull out to 18".



3onthetree said:


> See "cook's kitchen" above, and you just don't have much room.


Agree. It was a wild hair idea. I'm gonna need all the island cabinet space I can get.



3onthetree said:


> Your options are generic 36", 33", or 30" for the floor space, but you probably have the most options if you want a cabinet over it at 36".


I'm always of the mindset "plan for the future and versatility". At times its more of a curse than a blessing, but it generally pays off. So 36" fridge space budget it is.



3onthetree said:


> Not for me. You have a really small kitchen, dining, and living. I'll pull the Stadry card and say I only do this for a living.


So if not a built-in oven in the island, then where might it go, or is this layout all wrong?

PS. I REALLY appreciate the time and feedback given from a perspective I am not familiar with, and hope I am not testing anyone's patience. Successfully planning this space just isn't coming easily to me 

Here is what I have worked up so far for the "window sink" option.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

This is how a wall oven/microwave might fit into the equation. It would likely force the cook-top back into the island, against semi popular (and I kinda agree) opinion. Although a semi-wall/bar top on the island would help against splatter, it adds to the dimensions, and it is really packed in there as is.

I'm starting to think the previous window sink model, with stove top on the interior wall is winning so far, 30" built in oven in the island, or hacked into/below the 36" cook-top on the interior wall. Then all that remains is where to put the microwave, preferably built into the upper cabinets.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Double oven with microwave.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

I think this is the plan I'll go with, for now, unless there are any glaring objections (please speak up soon). Oven (built in) will have to go in the island for this layout. Not too sure I got a specific reason why this might be a bad idea, who wants to change my mind? Colors are: purple fridge, orange trash pullout, green dishwasher, blue sink, red stove top. Microwave will likely be built into the far left upper cabinet by the hallway (top left of the cooktop).

A few remaining questions...
1) Is the 97-3/4" width dining room area seem too small? (aka need to shrink the island). I know it is on the small side, but I tried it out with a decent sized table, and chairs, and there is just enough room to pull out chairs and sit down. Mostly making sure I didn't do an overly biased experiment. A "thinner table" would help... 

2) Hood vent route: Up through ceiling/attic/roof, or 90 over to the exterior window wall? It would either be hidden in taller wall cabinets, or above them in a chase.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

Thinking out loud here...

Wall oven/microwave leaves 6" to the cooktop on the counter (bad)
"over range" doesn't seem to work well since the cook top (not a range) is 36" wide, and a hood should be sized to match.

Microwave in the upper cabinets (left of cook top) will require some creativity, but if it "only" requires 20" depth, then...
Maybe recess into interior wall (saves 3.5")
Use 18" deep non-ikea upper cabinets (and recess into wall)
Might impact the bathroom layout a bit (on the other side of the wall)

The corner and/or window wall don't seem to be ideal locations, or any simpler to pull off than the alternatives.

I think under counter microwaves are a silly prospect.

Did I miss anything obvious before I commit to the above/left of cook top idea? It seems the least radical to me, but given my track record of radical... :smile:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

gslenk said:


> Thinking out loud here...
> 
> Wall oven/microwave leaves 6" to the cooktop on the counter (bad)
> "over range" doesn't seem to work well since the cook top (not a range) is 36" wide, and a hood should be sized to match.
> ...


 If there is wall joining behind for another room there woud drywall backing in there so the cavity would be only 2" if any space, depending on how they framed it and there are 2 2x4s inside the end of the wall you are working on so you would have to be 3 1/2 - 4" from the end of the wall 



A built in micro wave needs a lot of space around it compared to OTR because the OTR one have the fan built in so I would cheat, they are only 16" deep. Last year I changed out an old Panasonic for a new one just because the old one was old, still worked fine 20 years old. When you run the micro wave a vent door opens in the front top
https://www.lowes.ca/product/over-t...9yWfE_2K3rHQR5T7RphoCrxwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


You could build the box above it out you just add sides and back to make it stick out further. Makes it 31 1/2 wide.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

I was briefly thinking about an over the range option, but not over the range. I think that's another winner to keep cabinet depth normal.

On another note, I think I solved the kitchen drain problem... The horizontal ends up being ~10ft but it is vented immediately. Turns out I had enough room on the fur out of the half wall basement. No need for a chase!


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

You may want to have the plumbing looked at by some eyes here. I've never seen a cleanout setup like that, the sink is the cleanout. There are also some better Tee fittings which would make the stub simpler. And some rules about cleanouts on long horizontal branches.


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## gslenk (Mar 23, 2018)

That what I was thinking (cleanout looks wonky). But it is my answer, as of now, to any potential/future clogs. Makes me feel better about running that 10ft length.

I'll get around to posting that portion in the plumbing section. I think we've long resolved the "load bearing wall" question.


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