# Old House - no junction box - HELP!



## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

I have a 100yr old house and in our Entry we have 2 sconces that i removed and want to replace, but I found out that there are no Junction Boxes, in both location there are only the wires that come out of the wall through a small hole. i know that per code, you need a junction box, but i don't want to install them...... is there any way i can mount a new sconce to the plaster wall? do they have mounting brackets for this type of situation? the lights worked before without junction boxes, i really don't want to spend more money....what are your thoughts?

Thanks in advanced


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

Hey Newbie..... ever get those lights back on the wall?


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

I have not. That's why i posted, I'm looking for suggestions.

Thanks in advanced.


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

well it's been awhile since that post thats why I asked first.... 

Not to look like a smart ass but it is your house.... you don't want it don't use it.

I am an electrician in the trade for 23yrs and I have worked in many of historical homes.
Are the fixtures wide enough for hide the boxes?
Why exactly don't you want to use the boxes?


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

ChristopherSprks said:


> well it's been awhile since that post


gezzz... I'm sorry, I thought your join date was the posting date.... so sorry I was multitasking at the time... what a :jester:I am


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

well, i figured since the last 100 years there has been no problem why install junction boxes now? I'm repainting the hallway and in removing the old wall sconces i found that there were NO junction boxes installed and the lights worked just fine with no junction boxes. is there a way i can secure the new wall sconces to the plaster? and attachments in the industry?

Thanks


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

ChristopherSprks said:


> Are the fixtures wide enough for hide the boxes?


 
A 100yr old house thats amazing congrats for taking on such a "labor of love".

Like I said, it's your house, but if it were me and you hired me to reinstalled the fixtures I would be forced to install the boxes. If the fixture were not wide enough to cover the boxes I would modify the fixtures maybe with a threaded tube drilled through the fixture. 1st cut in the box, attach a fixture bracket w/ treaded tube then a blank plate with hole drilled through for tube and a hole for the wires, use one of those little red bushings you find at the end of the BX cable (we call then red heads or anti-shorts) then paint the blank plate the same as the wall then the fixture goes on then a decorative cap for the tube.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I doubt replacing fixtures could be called a renovation. If it were me I would not use boxes. Just make sure the connections will be housed in the fixture body. "Don't push the wire nuts into the wall". Some fixtures have a plate on the back with a small hole in the middle. Bring the house wires into the hole.
I know this will be dismissed as nonsense, but why install the boxes if you dont need them.
If you are doing any renovations involving permits, I would install the boxes.

If you decide to install the boxes just use round or octagonal type. You must have a way to secure them to the stud or the wall behind them. Then install your fixture ring and off you go.

As a licenced contractor, I would not bother to install them in my home, but I would in yours.


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

Hey JV

Let me understand you correctly. i get the part in which you want me to take the wires through the hole in the plate in which the fixture attaches to but how do i attach the plate to the plaste wall? it seems pretty simple. like i said all i have right now are two wires coming through a hole in the wall

Thanks in advanced!


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## sluggermike (Sep 2, 2007)

Unless your wiring has been up dated, you have the tube and nob type wiring and it is most likely very brittle. I started to do some wiring for my Uncle who had a very old house with the tube and nob system. I told him that I would have to rewire the house because I didn't think it was safe. Fortunately for me he sold the house and even though it was considered an historical site the new owner tore it down. The new owner was fined, but he had a lot of money and didn't care--too bad.


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

sluggermike said:


> the new owner tore it down.


what a shame....


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

is there a mounting plate i can buy for my situation?
i realize i should run the wires through the plate and tuck them into the back of the fisture so they are NOT in the wall since there is no junction box

Thanks


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

_*As Per The 2005 NEC*_

*300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings — Where Required*
*300.15(J)* Luminaires (Fixtures) A box or conduit body shall not be required where a luminaire (fixture) is used as a raceway as permitted in 410.31 and 410.32.

*410.31 Luminaires (Fixtures) as Raceways
*Luminaires (fixtures) shall not be used as a raceway for circuit conductors unless listed and marked for use as a raceway.
According to the UL Luminaire Marking Guide, luminaires listed for use as raceways are marked ``Suitable for Use as a Raceway'' and also ``Maximum of _____°C permitted in raceway.'' Without these markings, a row of luminaires connected end to end cannot be used as a raceway for circuit conductors other than the 2-wire or multiwire circuit supplying the luminaires. Luminaires identified for use as a raceway have been evaluated for the heat contribution caused by additional current-carrying conductors.

*410.32* Wiring Supplying Luminaires (Fixtures) Connected Together
Luminaires (fixtures) designed for end-to-end connection to form a continuous assembly, or luminaires (fixtures) connected together by recognized wiring methods, shall be permitted to contain the conductors of a 2-wire branch circuit, or one multiwire branch circuit, supplying the connected luminaires (fixtures) and need not be listed as a raceway. One additional 2-wire branch circuit separately supplying one or more of the connected luminaires (fixtures) shall also be permitted.
The provisions of *410.32* facilitate convenient switching and supply circuit arrangements for a physically continuous row of luminaires or a row that is made continuous via the wiring method. A single 2-wire or a single multiwire branch circuit supplying the luminaires is permitted to be run through the continuous row(s), and the luminaires are not required to be listed for use as a raceway. An additional 2-wire branch circuit is permitted to be run through these luminaires. This circuit may supply only luminaires in the connected row(s) and is commonly employed to switch night lighting as an energy conservation method.

*What it says here is, that if the fixture has a compartment large enough to contain a splice a "box" is not required. *
*Does the fixture have a splice box on it? I doubt it.*


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

Good Luck dude.... :thumbsup:


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

i have not purchased the fixtures yet. i wanted to know if there are mounting plates they sell for my current siutation.


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## DuncanB (Sep 18, 2007)

Hold on just a minute, there.......

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
point for concealed knob and tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC
cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, non-metallic sheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed
at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction
point, termination point, or pull point,


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## michaelpwalton1 (Sep 22, 2007)

Working on old homes can be a pain in the a$$. If in fact the existing wires feeding the existing fixtures are Knob & Tube, then you could use the hardware that was approved for that purpose.(more later) If the wires are not knob and tube, then a JB is required (to meet code).
The real issue is, what is the question? Do you want to do it right and proper? Then install a JB or pancake. If you just want the light to come on when you flip the switch, hell all you need is some electric tape to make the connection. It will work but it will not be correct. Now that won't mean a darn thing as long as there are no other problems. But should you suffer an insurance loss and they send in an inspector, well what you saved on the Junction box will not begin to compare to the loss that the insurance company will not cover.

For Knob and tube, they use to use / install what was called a crow's foot. It has three legs to secure to the wall and it had a threaded hub that would accept a nipple which was used to mount the fixture and the wires came up and out through the nipple to the fixture. 

Finding these adapters may not be easy. I would look at antique shops that sell old fixtures or find an old timer like me that carry them on their truck.


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## send_it_all (Apr 30, 2007)

What would be so hard about using a cut-in fixture box. It would provide a mounting surface for your fixtures as well as a J/B. If you don't know what a cut-in box is..its a box that attaches to the surface of the plaster using three little ears that you tighten with a screwdriver. You wouldn't need to cut a big enough hole to attach a box to the stud...Only as big as the diameter of the box.


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## Designman20 (May 6, 2007)

Thanks for all your input!


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## ChristopherSprks (Sep 17, 2007)

are these fixtures going to be new or antique?
If they're new you won't have a worry, the new fixtures will cover the boxes and will come with the mounting hardware.
Antique, pot luck.
I'm sure there is a rosette you could purchase but that will not satisfy the code.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> But should you suffer an insurance loss and they send in an inspector, well what you saved on the Junction box will not begin to compare to the loss that the insurance company will not cover.


I wish everyone would quit telling people that, because it's not true. Insurance will cover any loss even if it was installed incorrectly...UNLESS...the laws in your state prohibit a homeowner from doing his/her own electrical work.

I know that wasn't the point of this thread, but it really annoys me when someone says "better watch out, if the insurance company finds out you did it that way, they won't pay" because it's not so.

Unless you're replacing the wiring itself, I wouldn't think the new code would apply to you. Would it be a good idea to add a box?...maybe. Would it be a terrible thing to NOT add one?...not really.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Designman....Use the same method for mounting the fixture as before. I just wanted to make sure you brought the cable into the fixture body to make the connections.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> i really don't want to spend more money..


Spend the money on smoke detectors and insurance.



It's not about money, it's about time and the proper tools to do it right.

A plastic cut in box costs about 3 bucks but it is tricky to cut the wood lathe and plaster cleanly without a rotozip.


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