# Installing blind beam in Attic to support sagging ceiling



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

These are the straps i was thinking of using to take the sag out of the ceiling.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HTSQ.asp


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Are you sure that it is just the Drywall has come loose from the Trusses, or is there a sign when you are up in the attic, and can see the truss being pulled downwards.

Most times it is just that the nails on the ceiling drywall are pulling loose, so you see a sag because there is nothing holding the drywall to the trusses.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

If someone came through before you and started to remove walls to open up the upstairs. The first thing I would be doing, is check to see if there were any permits pulled for that work. If not, then you have issues. If there is another house just like yours in your neighborhood, go over and ask the owner if you can take a look at theirs, because you suspect the previous owner for your place, removed some walls.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

The wall wasn't load bearing so the the permits were not required, at least they weren't when the wall was removed. It was at least 14 years ago. I have a friend with basically the exact same building style house, built in the 60's as well. He removed the wall that is already removed in my house and noticed sagging right away. He put in a small beam and some posts. 
I'm pretty sure its sagging and not pulling away because I've been in the attic and the drywall looks tight to the ceiling joist. And at the point where it appears to be sagging is a drywall joint and the the ceiling is cracking right along that joint.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

found this idea as a way of avoiding digging out the drywall in order to put in proper joist hangers. This is wayyyyyyy overkill for my application, but it would be a lot stronger than straps, and my lack of experience makes me want to overbuild everything.
Keep in mind that my beam won't be load bearing, as per engineer i paid to look into this. So my beam is just providing some more rigidity to the 2x4 joists to stop the sagging and cracking at the meeting of the drywall. Also, although the engineer told me this isn't a load bearing point, for my own piece of mind i'm putting this beam in.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

Also, I'm building my own beam for this. 3 ply 2x12's. I was going to lay the ply's out like this:
12 - 12
6 - 12 - 6
12 - 12
Then glue/screw every 6".

But i'm sitting at my desk at work wondering if i can get a 2x12x12 into my attic... Is there anyone out there that knows if there's a limit to how much you can break a beam down? 
I.E. 
8 - 8 - 8
6 - 6 - 6 - 6
8 - 8 - 8


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Am I seeing that correct. Someone is using Come Along's to compensate for removing a load bearing wall.

Without see pictures of your place, no one can tell you. Also if these are manufactured trusses, not Joist and rafters like in the picture you posted. The manufacturer would have spec'd them out for how the plans called.

That means if you remove a wall and the drywall starts sagging. You have issues.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

Yes my house has manufactured trusses, which is why the wall that was removed was determined to be not load bearing by an structural engineer. Maybe I've been mistaken in saying that the ceiling is sagging. Sagging makes it sound like this is a significant drop at the middle of my ceiling. The difference in ceiling height between the middle of the room and the outside of the room by my eye is just under 1/16". So i may have misrepresented the issue when i said "sagging".
Here is a couple ****ty pictures of my attic.


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I am really confused by this thread. First off, you indicate you have trusses (and you do). The trusses were checked by an engineer, who said they were adequate to span without a central support. Then you indicate that the ceiling is sagging, but later you note that you verified this by eye (presumably no level used), and you think the ceiling is sagging by 1/16 inch.

I don't understand how you determined 1/16 inch with no instrument. Further, I don't understand why you want to put in a hard to install beam in the attic to correct a 1/16 inch sag. I must be missing something, help me out.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

Ok I'll try to straiten everything out. I'm just using too much vague terminology because in practice i'm new to all of this and maybe i'm too concerned with sounding stupid. 
I got to this 1/16 measure meant measuring a few points along the crack line in the ceiling. I did not use a level so i will try that again when i get home. I didn't realize that was the correct way to check. 

Some background on my thinking. My friend and I both have the same style house in the same area. He bough his first, he confirmed with an engineer that the wall was not load bearing. He removed the wall and the ceiling sagged. I can't remember how much, but it was enough that he decided to put in a beam. 
I just bought my house. In my case that same wall has already been removed, I noticed that the two pieces of drywall meed right where the old wall used to be and the mud is cracking along that line. Which made me feel the need to ask another engineer if that spot should have had a beam. This engineer told me that that is not a point that is load bearing. The manufactured trusses in my attic were designed to hold that load and transfer the weight out to the exterior walls.
So you could say i have two engineers telling me that it is not a load point, but in both cases the ceiling is "sagging" a small amount. So I have decided that for my own piece of mind i will install a blind header in the attic, because we don't want a beam showing anyway. 
So in reality, i'm going through all of this trouble to put a beam up there because of the experience my friend had at his house and for my own peace of mind. 

So i suppose what your're saying is that if i measure properly and the sag is still only 1/16" than you wouldn't worry about it? just dig that mud out and fix the crack?

Then in the case that I'm stubborn and a constant worrier, if i decide to put this beam in there anyway for no other reason than because my friend did it and he got me worrying. Is it ok to make a beam that is 24' 3 plys and 8'-8'-8', 6'-6'-6'-6', 8'-8'-8' ??


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You can have a 1/16th variance, depending on how straight the bottom 2x4 on the Trusses are. Also if they sprayed the ceiling with "Popcorn" or did an Orange peel texture, you can a wave. You have to get a light and shine it across the light horizontal against the ceiling. You can also use a Laser Level and see if it does not find sections that appear to have dropped, but really are not.

Your eyes can play tricks with you, when looking across long distances. Especially if you have glasses or have not been checked for any form of Glaucoma, which can cause a part of the eye to think it sees issues, but really they are not there.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

It is a popcorn ceiling. So the measurement, at least how i've done it, is going to have some variance. The indicator to me was the crack along the seam of the dry wall, exactly where the old wall used to be.


----------



## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

The crack is probably where the drywall was patched in where the old wall used to be. There would have been no drywall there most likely (although some did drywall the ceilings first then build interior walls it is not very common at all).
This does not necessarily indicate a sagging ceiling, just a poor patch job.
You could redrywall over the ceiling making sure to span this area with your new sheets and not have a joint in that area.


----------



## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

bluerayz said:


> So you could say i have two engineers telling me that it is not a load point, but in both cases the ceiling is "sagging" a small amount.
> 
> So i suppose what your're saying is that if i measure properly and the sag is still only 1/16" than you wouldn't worry about it? just dig that mud out and fix the crack?


BTW, how long are the ceiling joists. IOW, what is the distance that they are spanning?

Regarding getting a long beam into your attic, would it be feasible to cut a hole in your gable end wall that you can patch later?

HRG


----------



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I had to do exactly what you are planning---the old trusses in that house were designed wrong and sagged---

I lifted the cieling using a jack wall---added the beam and hung the ceiling joists using wood( much like your picture)

We did remove all of the drywall on that one--making it easier to get our beam into the attic.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

mae-ling said:


> The crack is probably where the drywall was patched in where the old wall used to be. There would have been no drywall there most likely (although some did drywall the ceilings first then build interior walls it is not very common at all).
> This does not necessarily indicate a sagging ceiling, just a poor patch job.
> You could redrywall over the ceiling making sure to span this area with your new sheets and not have a joint in that area.


I have seen cracks in the tape on ceilings that have not had a wall removed. Usually it is caused by the nails starting to pull away from the wood, because of the house natural movements.


----------



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Use a string to go over everything again. Don't put the string on the existing lumber. Put 2x4 blocks (on flat) on the ends of the suspected sag/lift and make the string tight. Measure the middle section and see how different it is from the measurement of the 2x4. 
I'm not sure how you can tell 1/16 from a textured ceiling. You can't even put a level on it. BTW, is your floor level, anything in the back ground that makes you think the ceiling is sagging? Joint compound thicknesses? Wood building seldom has absolute level surface, even by a cheap level.

Triple beam is 3 layers of solid lumber. Mid layer in 2 pieces will make that beam double beam. You can not make a beam out of pieces of lumber. As far as I am concerned, a beam like that should be supported all the way to a foundation, no unseen space between the load points and the foundation.


----------



## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

Just because you have a crack in the drywall/plaster does not mean you have a sag.


----------



## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

Are we sure this isn't a case of truss uplift? The reason I ask is because your bottom chord member is buried in insulation, and your top chords are exposed to whatever temperature and humidity extremes there are in your area. If it's truss uplift, then throughout the year the ceiling assembly would act like an ever-so slight, slow motion, vibrating drum head due to the different temp/humidity conditions in your top and bottom chords. The result would be cracks in your ceiling drywall joints.


----------



## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

From everything the OP has said I really question if a beam is needed. 
Les then 1/16th sag (not sure how he measured it) and the crack right where a patch may have been made when a wall was removed.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

mae-ling my house has about a 3/4" tilt to one side, because the downspouts were not extended far enough on that side.

Over the past 13 years, there has been no change in the house moving.

I would not be surprised if this was just common house movement. Especially in that they took out a wall after the house had pretty much moved in wood shrinkage.

Pulling that wall out, caused further movement of the trusses, because they were previously tied to the wall for such a long period.


----------



## bluerayz (May 7, 2015)

Hey guys. I totally disappeared on you but thanx for all the input,
In interest of paying forward your help, i'll tell you what we did for the next guy who comes along and reads this.
Measured the "sag" in the ceiling again, with a level and found some big humps in the ceiling. There were 2 spots that were 3/4 of a inch lower than the rest of the line in the ceiling, where the wall used to be. Which is not terrible, but it bugged me, so we decided to put a beam in. 
Lifted up the siding and cut a small slot in the shiplap to fit 2x12's through. Built a 3 ply beam in the attic, put it in place and uses some conveniently shaped Simpson brackets, that i found at the local hardware store, to connect the ceiling joists to the beam. Made some blocking at both ends to prevent the beam from falling over (its never falling over unless theres a major earthquake. In which case the whole house is probably coming down anyway). We also filled the walls on the top floor and bottom floor with 2x4's and 2x6's to transfer the weight of the beam straight down to the foundation. Oh and we jacked up on the few spots that were low in the ceiling before we did all this.

So long story short, i overkilled the hell out of this project. But i'll sleep a lot better knowing that its overbuilt as opposed to being sufficient. Total cost was about $300 and took about 8 hours start to finish.


----------



## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

Glad you're happy. If you still get drywall seam cracks, it's truss uplift.


----------

