# New one on me



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I had something similar, keeping a charger on a fairly new battery. Old chevy at 60 MPH the starter kicked in. New solenoid and the battery problem went away. 
Do you know what to do at 60 when the starter kicks in? Panic.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

The contacts in the relay can corrode, so maybe they bridged, causing your current draw?


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

huesmann said:


> The contacts in the relay can corrode, so maybe they bridged, causing your current draw?


No idea, I have seen a horn relay stick that drew down a battery but didn't set off the horn.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I had an A/C clutch relay that stuck in the 'on" position. When I went after the draw, I leaned on the A/C clutch and it burnt me. Taa Daa. A quick find.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

All relays will wear out eventually.

They are no more than a momentary switch, with a spring loaded release mechanism.

And usually built from the cheapest that can be gotten. 

Some can be rebuilt, but most are a one and done item.

Replacement necessary. 

ED


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

de-nagorg said:


> All relays will wear out eventually.
> 
> They are no more than a momentary switch, with a spring loaded release mechanism.
> 
> ...


This one was only about $15. Just odd that it must have only stuck occasionally.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

rusty baker said:


> This one was only about $15. Just odd that it must have only stuck occasionally.


Yep, the occasional bump in the road, rattled the slug inside over just enough that it hung up on the sidewall of the housing.

I would have thought that in modern days Chrysler would have better electronics in those though.


ED


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## Dwellonroof (Nov 13, 2021)

A lot of Buick have a draw from onstar, remove the fuse and you are good to go.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Some years ago, I installed a HIGH END Stereo, in an older truck.

It had a digital clock, that If I did not drive the truck every couple of weeks, it would drain the battery. 

There are all kinds of things that might do this. 

Had one once where the brake light switch, was draining the battery, it was not activating the brake lights, but was in the always on mode. 

ED


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

de-nagorg said:


> Some years ago, I installed a HIGH END Stereo, in an older truck.
> 
> It had a digital clock, that If I did not drive the truck every couple of weeks, it would drain the battery.
> 
> ...


Whenever I checked this, it was only drawing 20 milliamps. which is normal.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

rusty baker said:


> Whenever I checked this, it was only drawing 20 milliamps. which is normal.


 Maybe you caught it when it was behaving itself.

There is the GREMLINS phenomena ya know.

ED


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, I was wrong. Now sometimes it will click when you try to start it, other times no sound at all. After 4-5 tries, it will start normally. Bad connection somewhere?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

rusty baker said:


> Well, I was wrong. Now sometimes it will click when you try to start it, other times no sound at all. After 4-5 tries, it will start normally. Bad connection somewhere?


 Yes, check the battery cable to post for corrosion, or loose.

Also check the other end of both cables for looseness.

Next check the solenoid wires for looseness, stripped wiring, or a loose solenoid.

Then check the actual switch mechanism.

NOTE: most ignition switches now are under the dash, bolted to the column.

That thing on the column, where you put a key, is just a lock mechanism, with a mechanical linkage to the electrical switch.

This is a start to diagnoses, and usually finds a problem.

Report back, on the progress.

ED


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Starter solenoid?


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Brainbucket said:


> Starter solenoid?


Chrysler uses a relay and I changed it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

rusty baker said:


> Chrysler uses a relay and I changed it.


 But did you get it tight, and did the ground bolts actually tighten and ground it thouroughly. 

I have seen them be just a tad loose, and ground intermittently, and have very similar symptoms. 

A tedious chore to find sometimes.

ED


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

I had a similar problem. Was positive it was the ignition and after much procrastination it got so bad I decided to tackle it. Did not resolve the issue. So I decided to swap out the starter. While undoing the wires I noticed they were a bit corroded. Cleaned them up and problem solved. Put the old ignition back in and all was well.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

wrangler said:


> I had a similar problem. Was positive it was the ignition and after much procrastination it got so bad I decided to tackle it. Did not resolve the issue. So I decided to swap out the starter. While undoing the wires I noticed they were a bit corroded. Cleaned them up and problem solved. Put the old ignition back in and all was well.


 Yep bare wires corrode, and lose their ability to flow the juice through them.

Actually the corrosion, draws the current out and away from where it is supposed to be going.

ED


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## wigginsr181 (Nov 18, 2021)

Nealtw said:


> I had something similar, keeping a charger on a fairly new battery. Old chevy at 60 MPH the starter kicked in. New solenoid and the battery problem went away.
> Do you know what to do at 60 when the starter kicks in? Panic.


Did ya get your foot in the wrong place ? lol -- The old chevys had a starter button on the floor, foot operated, just to the right of the accelerator pedal .


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

wigginsr181 said:


> Did ya get your foot in the wrong place ? lol -- The old chevys had a starter button on the floor, foot operated, just to the right of the accelerator pedal .


No, 62 chevy, I stopped and turned off the car, pulled the battery cable off to stop the starter. Hooked back up and it started the car fine for a few days until I changed it. It scared the crap out of me.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

de-nagorg said:


> But did you get it tight, and did the ground bolts actually tighten and ground it thouroughly.
> 
> I have seen them be just a tad loose, and ground intermittently, and have very similar symptoms.
> 
> ...


The relay plugs in like a fuse.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

All cars all have starter relays... and also solenoids. The solenoid is the electro-mechanical piece that engages the starter pinion gear into the flywheel. That part can fail by itself and just click instead of engaging. On most modern starters the solenoid is integral with the starter, not a separate part like on really old Fords.




rusty baker said:


> Chrysler uses a relay and I changed it.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

raylo32 said:


> All cars all have starter relays... and also solenoids. The solenoid is the electro-mechanical piece that engages the starter pinion gear into the flywheel.


I've worked on several vehicles (one was a Jeep) where the starter pinion gear was had a lug in a spiral groove on the shaft, so that it slid up and engaged when the starter spun. No solenoid, just the relay.

I think the solenoid type is more common now, through.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

HotRodx10 said:


> I've worked on several vehicles (one was a Jeep) where the starter pinion gear was had a lug in a spiral groove on the shaft, so that it slid up and engaged when the starter spun. No solenoid, just the relay.
> 
> I think the solenoid type is more common now, through.


The Jeep should have "gear reduction" starter, same as my Chrysler. And as far as I can tell you are right, there is no solenoid.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

rusty baker said:


> The Jeep should have "gear reduction" starter, same as my Chrysler. And as far as I can tell you are right, there is no solenoid.


That depends on what year said jeep was made.

True that modern Jeep has a chrysler Dodge engine, and it's starter, but A Willys Jeep did not, neither was the American Motors Jeep of the mid 80s. 

Anyway that is not important, to your problem, I still think that an inspection of the cabling, and wiring for the starter system is necessary. 

ED


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> True that modern Jeep has a chrysler Dodge engine, and it's starter, but A Willys Jeep did not, neither was the American Motors Jeep of the mid 80s.


Mine was a '79 Cherokee Chief, so an AMC.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

As a point of interest only.

Remember the sound effects in the movie WAR OF THE WORLDS 1950s.

Where the Martians were firing their death ray?

That sound is the sound made by the Chrysler vehicles of the day, with the coil wire removed.

That gear reduction starter may be more powerful, but noisy. 


I now return this back to the intermittent problem.

ED


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

raylo32 said:


> All cars all have starter relays... and also solenoids. The solenoid is the electro-mechanical piece that engages the starter pinion gear into the flywheel. That part can fail by itself and just click instead of engaging. On most modern starters the solenoid is integral with the starter, not a separate part like on really old Fords.


This. The solenoid doesn't need a lot of juice to engage the pinion into the ring gear, so it can be used with just the current going through the ignition switch. But the starter needs a lot of current to crank the engine, which is why _it_ needs a relay.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

huesmann said:


> This. The solenoid doesn't need a lot of juice to engage the pinion into the ring gear, so it can be used with just the current going through the ignition switch. But the starter needs a lot of current to crank the engine, which is why _it_ needs a relay.


Almost right. 

The starter gear engages the teeth on the outside edge of the flywheel (a ring gear is a ring with teeth on the inside, typically found in a differential).

In many vehicles, the solenoid is powered directly from the ignition switch and engages the starter gear *and* the contacts for the main power to the starter motor.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> Almost right.
> 
> The starter gear engages the teeth on the outside edge of the flywheel (a ring gear is a ring with teeth on the inside, typically found in a differential).
> 
> In many vehicles, the solenoid is powered directly from the ignition switch and engages the starter gear *and* the contacts for the main power to the starter motor.


He is as correct as you are.

The teeth on the flex-plate / flywheel, are called the STARTER RING.
And the teeth on the starter shaft are the bendix.

The relay / solenoid can be directly on the starter, or on the fender / firewall somewhere.

Depending on who engineered the vehicle.

ED


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> Almost right.
> 
> The starter gear engages the teeth on the outside edge of the flywheel (a ring gear is a ring with teeth on the inside, typically found in a differential).


Oh?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> The teeth on the flex-plate / flywheel, are called the STARTER RING.


Perhaps, but it's not a ring gear, despite what somebody posted on Wikipedia.


de-nagorg said:


> And the teeth on the starter shaft are the bendix.


Actually, a bendix drive is the type of system I described earlier that uses inertia to move the pinion gear up to mesh with the flywheel/flexplate gear teeth. That type usually doesn't require a solenoid, and typically has a relay on the firewall.



de-nagorg said:


> The relay / solenoid can be directly on the starter, or on the fender / firewall somewhere.


Well, a relay can be on the firewall, but the solenoid has to be on the starter. The solenoid can serve the second function of making the main electrical connection, as well as moving the pinion gear to mesh with the flywheel/flexplate gear teeth.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> Perhaps, but it's not a ring gear, despite what somebody posted on Wikipedia.
> 
> Actually, a bendix drive is the type of system I described earlier that uses inertia to move the pinion gear up to mesh with the flywheel/flexplate gear teeth. That type usually doesn't require a solenoid, and typically has a relay on the firewall.
> 
> ...


The Chilton's manual at hand, the Ford service books, and my College TEXT BOOKS, all call the item on the fender of any older Ford that you choose a SOLENOID. 

It actually is a relay, but all my reference material states SOLENOID. 

What you described earlier is an old Ford design starter, where the electric gadget on the fender, sends a full 12 volts to the starter, and an electromagnet pulls the iron block down and by way of a fulcrum pushes the bendix into the starter ring, while simultaneously spinning the starter motor, thus cranking the Engine. 

The fender mounted device also sends voltage to the coil, which allows the coil to pulse, and go through the distributor to the spark plugs, igniting the air/fuel mixture.

HAVE A NICE NIGHT


ED


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

de-nagorg said:


> The Chilton's manual at hand, the Ford service books, and my College TEXT BOOKS, all call the item on the fender of any older Ford that you choose a SOLENOID.
> 
> It actually is a relay, but all my reference material states SOLENOID.
> 
> ...


Ford has always called it a solenoid.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> It actually is a relay, but all my reference material states SOLENOID.


I stand corrected. Apparently, the old-style 'electrical switch' for the main starter power, commonly found on the firewall, is technically a solenoid-actuated relay.



de-nagorg said:


> What you described earlier is an old Ford design starter, where the electric gadget on the fender, sends a full 12 volts to the starter, and an electromagnet pulls the iron block down and by way of a fulcrum pushes the bendix into the starter ring, while simultaneously spinning the starter motor, thus cranking the Engine.


I wasn't aware that's how the Ford system worked. The AMC system used on my Jeep was similar, except it didn't require a solenoid or an electromagnet at all, but instead, a section of the shaft is 'threaded' so that the pinion gear is pushed into the flywheel when the shaft spins.

Btw, nearly all of the wires in automotive wiring carry "a full 12 volts"; the starter just happens to have a much lower resistance than most other components, so when connected, the current flow is much larger.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> Perhaps, but it's not a ring gear, despite what somebody posted on Wikipedia.


You said a ring gear has "teeth on the inside, typically found in a differential"...but the teeth on a diff ring gear are typically on the outside _face _of the ring, not the inside diameter as you seem to be indicating.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

huesmann said:


> You said a ring gear has "teeth on the inside, typically found in a differential"...but the teeth on a diff ring gear are typically on the outside _face _of the ring, not the inside diameter as you seem to be indicating.


Once again, I seem to have made and incorrect extrapolation from a vehicle I worked on. After digging deeper, it seems there are also multiple configurations for differential gears. Some do indeed have teeth outside, many have teeth on the side face or at an angle, and some, like the one I tore into, have a sun gear, planetary gears, and a ring gear with teeth on the inside. Whether the gears with teeth on the outside or on the side face can properly be called a ring gear is a matter than can be disputed and debated, I suppose, but I surrender. We're way off topic, anyway.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HotRodx10 said:


> Once again, I seem to have made and incorrect extrapolation from a vehicle I worked on. After digging deeper, it seems there are also multiple configurations for differential gears. Some do indeed have teeth outside, many have teeth on the side face or at an angle, and some, like the one I tore into, have a sun gear, planetary gears, and a ring gear with teeth on the inside. Whether the gears with teeth on the outside or on the side face can properly be called a ring gear is a matter than can be disputed and debated, I suppose, but I surrender. We're way off topic, anyway.


Way to deep. it is a ring around the flywheel, does it have gear teeth. If you ask the parts guy for a flywheel ring gear, he will know what you are talking about.
a solenoid is like a relay but it also does something mechanical like drive the stater gears into the flywheel 









A bendix drive uses the speed of the starter and spring to drive the gear to the flywheel and that uses a separate relay.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> it is a ring around the flywheel, does it have gear teeth.


Yeah, I get that now. A ring with gear teeth on it - inside, outside, or even on a bevel, can be called a ring gear. On all the vehicles I've worked on, the gear teeth were machined into the flywheel, so no separate ring. Apparently, on some vehicles, the gear is a separate piece from the flywheel.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> A bendix drive uses the speed of the starter and spring to drive the gear to the flywheel and that uses a separate relay.


Yeah, that was how I understood the bendix drive system, but I didn't care to argue whether the system de-nagorg described was or wasn't one.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HotRodx10 said:


> Yeah, I get that now. A ring with gear teeth on it - inside, outside, or even on a bevel, can be called a ring gear. On all the vehicles I've worked on, the gear teeth were machined into the flywheel, so no separate ring. Apparently, on some vehicles, the gear is a separate piece from the flywheel.


With an auto trans the ring is welded 
With a standard the ring gear is interference fit. You heat the gear and freeze the flywheel to install it.
Engines stop in one of 2 places every time, so when you loose a few teeth you can remove it and move it a few degrees or flip it front to back and re install it.
How to swap or flip a ring gear off a flywheel on a manual transmission - YouTube


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Now after that little diversion, has rusty baker's latest issue been resolved, or do we need to get back to trying to track it down?

I think there was a plug in relay that's been checked, right? Presumably, the main power to the starter doesn't go through that, but is switched either by a solenoid on the starter (which moves the pinion gear and makes the main electrical contact) or by a 'solenoid actuated relay' on the firewall (powering a bendix-type starter).


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> With an auto trans the ring is welded
> With a standard the ring gear is interference fit. You heat the gear and freeze the flywheel to install it.
> Engines stop in one of 2 places every time, so when you loose a few teeth you can remove it and move it a few degrees or flip it front to back and re install it.
> How to swap or flip a ring gear off a flywheel on a manual transmission - YouTube


If you say so. The 3 flywheels I've replaced were all single machined pieces. Anyway, that aspect of the debate makes no difference to the problem at hand. Can we focus on that?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HotRodx10 said:


> If you say so. The 3 flywheels I've replaced were all single machined pieces. Anyway, that aspect of the debate makes no difference to the problem at hand. Can we focus on that?


The real problem in the OP's post was solved before he posted it?
Your Jeep had a separate ring gear. 
Crown Automotive Jeep Replacement J3179741 Flywheel Ring Gear; (truckpartsuperstore.ca)


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

HotRodx10 said:


> Now after that little diversion, has rusty baker's latest issue been resolved, or do we need to get back to trying to track it down?
> 
> I think there was a plug in relay that's been checked, right? Presumably, the main power to the starter doesn't go through that, but is switched either by a solenoid on the starter (which moves the pinion gear and makes the main electrical contact) or by a 'solenoid actuated relay' on the firewall (powering a bendix-type starter).


Don't worry about it,this thread is so far off course that I am done with it.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> Your Jeep had a separate ring gear.


Perhaps it did, but that's not a vehicle I replaced the flywheel on. For the '92/'94 Metro, the '97 Nissan pickup, and '69/'63 Chevy pickup, the gear ring was not available separately, at least not when I did the replacements.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

rusty baker said:


> Don't worry about it,this thread is so far off course that I am done with it.


I apologize for my part in that.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

And for the record, These threads are like a conversation in person, they wander around to many different alleys, and roads, before they are concluded.

And I never try to sidetrack them, but they do go off topic.

ED


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> And for the record, These threads are like a conversation in person, they wander around to many different alleys, and roads, before they are concluded.
> 
> And I never try to sidetrack them, but they do go off topic.
> 
> ED


It is what happens when you hang around the corner of walk and don't walk.


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## Nut'n'Done (Nov 28, 2021)

I don't think this thread went off the rails from an automotive standpoint.
After all, it is a DIY forum.
I would expect this given most are just that. DIY' ers.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Well, as I see it, the solenoid/relay discussion was somewhat on topic, since the issue was possibly related to the power not getting to the starter, so which components are part of the path matters, but we got way off in the weeds debating bendix drives, ring gears, flywheels, and differentials.


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