# best knot to use on twine level sting on 1/2" pipe stakes?



## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Doing fair amt of water drainage grading - across part of back yard, then one side of house - headed for street. Need more than 3 - 4. I've go bunch of water pipe I often use for stakes. But never found a knot for nylon twine - using round galvanized pipe, where you can adjust tautness. 

I tried the one where you make a loop, twist it several times. Place over a nail. Then you can pull line tighter, while pulling on lose end. When you let go, the twists bunch up & stay. 

Usually that's for putting over a nail in stake or batter board. It doesn't seem to slip around the 1/2 pipe - to allow more tightening, before letting loose end go. And, the "knot" doesn't bunch up tightly against the pipe, once I let go - the way it does on nails. 

Batter board are in the way for soil grading in tight space. Maybe could use square wood stakes w/ nails in the side, but need to adjust string level up & down - easily, to get proper slope.

Other knots I've tried - taut hitch - for pulling rope tighter, don't seem to work on thin nylon twine - don't all pulling twine tighter.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,... We use mason's string,.... really stretchy,....

Pull it 'bout where ya need it, 'n go back a few or 10 feet, dependin' how long the line is, tie an overhand slip loop, pull it back to the stake, 'n slip the loop down over the stake,....

Stakes can be _Anything_, so long as it's driven deep enough to hold tension on the string,....

If the string needs to be higher on the stake, pull the tension with yer hand, 'n move the loop up,...
If it needs to be lower, beat the stake into the ground more,....


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Bondo - thanks. I get you (think). 


> go back a few or 10 feet, dependin' how long the line is, tie an overhand slip loop, pull it back to the stake,


"_go back a few ft_" - to what? Another stake? Wrap it around the 2nd stake, then slip over the marked stake?
Or, you mean, tie the loop ~ 10' shy of the stake, then stretch it to the stake. Other end's already tied off?

Seems a little trial / error, seeing how far back you have to tie the loop, to stretch enough so no sag.

*"Overhand slip loop*" - can you describe that? That the technical name?

You sayin' that Masons' line (stretchier than normal heavy nylon twine, won't sag over a 40 - 50ft run, if I stretch it tight enuf, before slipping the loop over the round water pipe? I've noticed for this old geezer, pulling the nylon twine - so no sag in 40 ft is tough, unless have more leverage than in my hands.

Some of those pipes may stick up 18" above grade, but string will need to be closer to ground - to follow easier - unless I cut pipes off.
When slip it over that height stake & slide it down 10 - 12", it'll lose some tautness - yes (geometry)? Unless you can stretch it so damn much before slipping over the pipe, slide it down several in. & it's still plenty tight?

Square 1-1/2 stakes would resist moving in soft earth more than 1/2" water pipe, if putting really tight string on.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Once you take about 10 seconds to learn to tie this tension adjusting clove hitch you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. Works great securing loads in trucks too.

In the chain example loop A is thrown counter clock followed by loop B. Place loop A on top of B and drop the knot onto the stake. Tension the line and it stays. The more tension the tighter the knot. To untie, slip the knot off of the stake and it falls apart or in some instances if you are in a big hurry save the knot and put it on the next stake or you can tie it while walking to the next location, even after dark blind folded.


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## DexterII (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm not Bondo (thank goodness for small favors!), but probably what I would use, which is wrap the line around your hand once, say you're right handed, so wrap it around your left hand, then reach through along the palm with your right hand, and you'll have something that will hold 90% of the time. If not, Senior's knot works well under most other circumstances. As far as which stake, he meant the stake that you're using. Rather than tying it at the stake, choke up on it, move in a few feet or more, depending on how much stretch your line has, and then pull it back to the stake so that it is taut. When I first saw "twine", I was afraid you were asking about how to tie a miller's knot. As many of those as I've tied over the years I still struggle, and no way I could describe it to anyone. For as simple as they are, I think it's the hardest knot there is, and no way I could ever describe it to anyone. Oh, and just kidding by the way, Bondo.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

To pull the line tight, use anything ( a 6" dowel as an example ) and tie that clove hitch knot around the dowel out about arms length from the stake. Now you have a handle to pull the string tight while at the same time adjusting the knot on the round smooth stake. Leave the dowel there or remove it, doesn't matter much.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Or, you mean, tie the loop ~ 10' shy of the stake, then stretch it to the stake. Other end's already tied off?


Ayuh,.... Exactly, 'n Dexter explains the overhand loop knot,....

When ya pull it off the stake, you can pull the tag end, 'n untie it,...

For a 40'/ 50' string line, I'd drop back say, 5' or 6', form the loop, 'n pull it to the stake,....
You'll figure out how far to pull it to get it stringline straight, 'n true,...


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Personally, I am not having any strings down near ground level. Just put it a a convenient height And at the slope that you want, get a stick and mark on it a line that when held at the level of the string will put the bottom of the stick at the desired ground level. Keeps stuff out of the way of rakes, dirt, whatever. And ALSO, if you leave this string overnight the moist night air will make the whole thing sag. Ron


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## Mingledtrash (Nov 27, 2015)

I dont know where i learned this but its definetly the easiest and most useful in construction.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Mingledtrash said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcDtyMwvyc
> 
> I dont know where i learned this but its definetly the easiest and most useful in construction.


Try the clove hitch on the nail and see if you still think the same. Then go to all 8 batter board nails with each method to determine which is best. When removing the string from all 8 nails is when the other benefit is realized.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Hoping to find a knot for twine (mason's) that allows pulling string tight - by wrapping 1/2 turn around pipe / stake. The whether wrapping another couple turns - & simple finishing knot, whre string tension doesn't slip. Might not be such an animal? 

The ones demo'd - where make a loop in loose end, twist ! 6 times, slip over a NAIL, then pull loose end toward nail - where it all bunches up - does NOT seem to work on pipes - OD ~ 7/8 ". It just doesn't slip well enough around that large dia pipe. Or maybe they have some roughness vs. a small nail? 

The making a loop, then stretching to the stake / pole method works - assuming I can pull tight enough, but I see in restricted space areas - w obstructions, a lot of untying / retying the knot to correct length. Still not clear how hard it'd be to untie some of suggested knots, unless slip off over end of stakes. Maybe I misunderstood that. 

Looked at many demos on knots you can tighten the line, but many seem suited to rope, not twine (never get it untied). I can't have 4 - 5 strings all set up - at ONCE - in this narrow 7' wide path. Esp. being ~ 12" off ground. Be tripping all over them. 

Could use stakes w/ nails, but in cramped area, will catch lots of shins! Unless wrap nail head w/ duct tape or such?

Thanks.


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## Mingledtrash (Nov 27, 2015)

tearitup said:


> Hoping to find a knot for twine (mason's) that allows pulling string tight - by wrapping 1/2 turn around pipe / stake. The whether wrapping another couple turns - & simple finishing knot, whre string tension doesn't slip. Might not be such an animal?
> 
> The ones demo'd - where make a loop in loose end, twist ! 6 times, slip over a NAIL, then pull loose end toward nail - where it all bunches up - does NOT seem to work on pipes - OD ~ 7/8 ". It just doesn't slip well enough around that large dia pipe. Or maybe they have some roughness vs. a small nail?
> 
> ...


I dont do concrete but, maybe this is why i only see them using batter boards and not batter pipes. Maybe you could attach a board to two pipes/stakes. 

I am knot sure if it will work with masonry string but, you could try a truckers hitch.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks Mingledtrash (sounds like my garage),
I've seen that knot, but didn't think of it for this. Could test w/ mason's line. Issue I've had w/ most these, is holding the tension (w/ my old hands), while tying the last securing knot - like your video. Might work.

Other's suggestion of tying loop in the stretching end, then stretch TO the stake / pole may work. Might estimate where loop needs to be, 1st stretching line taut, before tying a loop. But, knots in small line / twine can be harder to get out.

On one end / one string, I'll use batter board, to straddle buried phone line. They're coming to mark - only "guarantee" accurate to ~ 12" either side; no depth guarantee. I know generally where it is - I helped telco guy when he repaired it. Straddling it is faster than slow digging to find it, & it's NOT in perfect straight line.

I can find lines w/ "witching wires," but can be old, abandoned lines - phone or cable. Still have to dig to see.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

tearitup said:


> But, knots in small line / twine can be harder to get out.


Evidently you haven't tried the clove hitch. Slip the knot off of the pipe or a finish nail and the knot falls apart. No un - tieing necessary.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

> you haven't tried the clove hitch. Slip the knot off of the pipe or a finish nail and the knot falls apart


Yes & no. With the old, heavy twisted nylon line, it was hard (for me) to pull enough for no sag & get clove hitch over pipes.

Had to switch to 1.5" square stakes except one. Ground too soft for 1/2" pipe. Bought braided mason's line -easier to stretch. I can use nails, tie overhand loop & stretch it (untying twine is tougher - can mess it up). 
Clove hitch - maybe can wrap 1st hitch, hold enough tension while making 2nd hitch - w/o slipping. Pain in fingers / hands, makes it harder.

You think clove hitch - even pre-tied - will hold on a sm. dia nail?
None of these knot demo vids actually show zero sag in a 40 -50 ft line.

Slipping any pre-tied knot several in. down square stakes - under tension tends to bind. 

Even the method in Mingledtrash's vid - twist a loop ~ 6 (full) turns, slip over a nail, pull running line & tag end till tensioned, slipped too much - w/ Marshalltown braided mason's line. More than the vid before catching. 

The trucker's hitch DOES allow lots of tension (knots in small line). Depending how it's attached, after pulling tension, need better way on twine to finish it than a last "slippery hitch". The knots aren't big enough to grab & keep tension, tying last slippery hitch. Probably other ways to finish it using twine. Probably works well on larger rope.


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## Mingledtrash (Nov 27, 2015)

tearitup said:


> Yes & no. With the old, heavy twisted nylon line, it was hard (for me) to pull enough for no sag & get clove hitch over pipes.
> 
> Had to switch to 1.5" square stakes except one. Ground too soft for 1/2" pipe. Bought braided mason's line -easier to stretch. I can use nails, tie overhand loop & stretch it (untying twine is tougher - can mess it up).
> Clove hitch - maybe can wrap 1st hitch, hold enough tension while making 2nd hitch - w/o slipping. Pain in fingers / hands, makes it harder.
> ...


Sometimes it helps to have a second person half way on a long run to help pull it tight. I can guarantee that on a 50' run you will break the line before you get zero sag. so you need to decide how much string sag is acceptable and then if it sags to much add another stake half way. 

strings are good for getting things straight but not so much for leveling.

Zero sag in a string line is an unobtainable goal cause, science. 
this is why most concrete people have switched to lasers.

also keep tag line taught and pull in an arc until you reach the opposite direction it will reduce the slip to acceptable level.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks.


Mingledtrash said:


> also keep tag line taught and pull in an arc until you reach the opposite direction it will reduce the slip to acceptable level.


Tag line = loose end, but what do you mean, "Pull in arc til reach opposite direction...?"
Wrap it once around stake / pole, where tag end goes back parallel to working line?
Yes, that keeps from slipping... till start tying a knot, holding high tension. I generally won't have a 2nd person. Line also has to be retensioned every day - maybe more?

I can get a few knots to hold tight, on the starting stake(s) - not under tension (5 stakes, in all - not on same line).
On terminal stake, I can't stretch tight, hold it & tie most suitable knots w/o slipping. Wound up tying overhand loop in one end & stretch really tight to a nail - Marshalltown mason's line.

Over ~ 39 ft, can't see any sag, sighting along bottom of string. Not enough, so you'd think it'd cause 1/2" deep pool. 
Graded a little > 1/2 total length, using 2x4 gauge w/ level attached. Did a water drainage test, it starts "damming up" (read on). I set string w/ 1.5" drop in 39 ft - enough to keep water moving (does fine on other end of house).

It created 1/2" ? deep pool - before gets to 1/2 way point of string. The lowest string point would in center. If I followed string fairly well & it's sagging in middle, that's where *center* of pool should be - more dirt removed near string's lowest point.
But, it's not. 

Have to measure exact - fairly sure pooling starts well before 1/2 way.

Either made a mistake (naw) calculating; didn't follow string as well as thought; aliens are messing w/ me & laws of physics.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

I measured where deepest part of pool was.
It was close to center of string run. And there's going to be a little variation in following the string - 1st draft. 

I'd gone below string a tad deeper at some spots, compounding problem. String probably sags = < 1/8" in middle. I might've dug 1/4" too low - but only isolated spots, not several ft, even if string sags a bit. That w/ fact that I stopped "fine grading" to the string, @ ~ 2/3 of the run, accounts for a little more damming / pooling.

Putting another stake in middle requires calculating the drop / ft & marking it; wrapping string around & more hassle getting string tight. Or, in the middle 1/3 of the run, remove a bit less than string ht, or fill slightly. The 1st & last thirds of the run, remove to just below string.


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## Mingledtrash (Nov 27, 2015)

one of the reasons your water is pooling is because you dont have enough slope to drain water efficiently. For concrete and paved surfaces you would want minimum 1% slope which translates to about 1/8" per foot. for turf or landscaped areas you would want minimum of 2% which is about 1/4" per foot. 

at 1.5" in 39' you have only 1/25" per foot of slope. or .3% slope this wont be enough to drain water away before it pools up and soaks into the ground causing soil saturation which is bad.

Daniel Holzman is a civil engineer and would have better advice on this as i am just a carpenter. maybe he will see this and weigh in.


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## tearitup (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks Mingledtrash.
The reason I can only allow ~ 1.5" drop along the end of house, is there's only ~ 11.5" total drop.
From patio in back, across back of house (patio's toward other end), down side of house & across front yard. 11.5" in ~ 110 ft ~ 0.105" per ft - avg. That's how these houses were built.

If I use most of the drop across the back & down the side of house, there'd be very little left across front yard to street.

Around here in older 'hoods w/ flat lots, it seems to be how they did it. Back yards (most) are higher, but I had to grade that yrs ago - near the house. It's only got ~.035" / ft slope from patio to end of house & it drains reasonably well.

But by the time the water from back yard + side of house + some of the frt yd all drains into the swale, I figured I needed a good bit of slope to carry it all away from the house - moving fast thru thick St. Augustine grass, so doesn't drop as much silt. 

Swale in front has filled in some since worked on it ~ 18 yrs ago.
Partly why the side I just graded doesn't drain fast & ponds. Plus, it was a rough draft. Knew when it rained, I'd mark the low / high spots - I did after big rain y'day. 

Part of the front lawn swale is same height as dirt @ front corner of house - a "delta" built up. Now, have to grade that swale all the way to the sidewalk (~49'). Not many inches to deepen it - most of the way. Still, good bit of dirt to dig AND haul off.

Unless you rent a mini bobcat or have a crew, one of hardest parts is getting St. Augustine sod up. I'll look for some guys standing on a corner w/ nothing to do.

As Danny Glover said, "I'm getting too old for this..."


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