# Should Solar or Energy Efficiency Be an Income Stream?



## Flannel Guy DIY (Mar 12, 2017)

As I am reading some of the threads here, it occurred to me that maybe a good way for the US to go greener is to find ways to have people profit from it. 

Some examples that may or may not be viable but up for discussion...
1. tax breaks based upon low fuel/energy use at home. 
2. government car payment assistance for hybrid and/or electric vehicles
3. Regulate the buy back rates (solar) for excess energy sent back to the grid to be much closer to the retail price per KW being sold by the power companies. In this instance, can someone basically earn a living by not using any power and simply selling power all day?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> 1. tax breaks based upon low fuel/energy use at home.
> 2. government car payment assistance for hybrid and/or electric vehicles
> 3. Regulate the buy back rates (solar) for excess energy sent back to the grid to be much closer to the retail price


Ayuh,...... One question,..... Where's all this money gonna come from,..??

There is, or was tax credits for green energy,...
Without the tax breaks, green energy at home would never ever "Pay-off",....
Ditto green cars,...

'n now that The Donald is in charge, federal spendin' is gonna come to a halt for such nonsense,....


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## Flannel Guy DIY (Mar 12, 2017)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,...... One question,..... Where's all this money gonna come from,..??
> 
> There is, or was tax credits for green energy,...
> Without the tax breaks, green energy at home would never ever "Pay-off",....
> ...


yeah believe me I was thinking about that when I created the post. I am a finance guy and not a Bernie Sanders type who believes that the government should fund everything. They do waste money on green initiatives that basically result in nothing. Research, etc. I would propose channeling much of the wasted dollars to create an incentive for real energy savings. Something that changes behavior. If it does become an income stream it is also taxable dollars and therefore some of it will be put back into the budget


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> create an incentive for real energy savings. Something that changes behavior.



We have an entire progressive movement whose never ending goals are creating policy that affects behavior. They're called "Democrats". 


When energy saving ideas are legitimate, they don't need gov't subsidies. Smart money will fund it.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't know about the situation in the US, but as a general statement I feel it is always better for governments to enable people to profit from something as opposed to ensuring that they can. Using less of something you have to pay for is its own reward (unless of course it something you want to spend money on - like good whisky). Without inflated guaranteed feed-in rates (like we have in Ontario for wind/solar) I can't see how papering you house with solar cells can ever be a money maker when you factor in initial outlay, depreciation and eventual replacement.

EV vehicles are wildly expensive partially because they lack market penetration, which is also partially because the technology is immature. Certainly in this part of the world, when its -20, between reduced battery efficiency and the heater running, your range can probably be measured in line-of-sight.


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## jeff00 (Jan 22, 2017)

AFA Im concerned, the only way to make solar "profitable" would be to go off grid with a Battery bank system. If you eliminate the power company, you're already making money

But, most municipalities will not let a home go off grid because they lose money. 

MY PLAN ~~~eventually ~~~ is to go solar with a Grid tie system, just disconnect the "tie in" part to avoid government interference. I want nothing to do with the local power company. The have everyone by the gonads and I don't want anything to do with them

and after last weeks wind storm and record snowfall and people being without electricity for up to six days. _( I had power the during the entire event, but I loaned my 5500watt generator out to friends without power, until they got power, then I moved it to another friends home...and so on)_ Im convinced solar/battery with whole house generator back up is the way to tell the power company to go-pound-sand:devil3:


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## Flannel Guy DIY (Mar 12, 2017)

jeff00 said:


> AFA Im concerned, the only way to make solar "
> But, most municipalities will not let a home go off grid because they lose money.


how do the municipalities make money from our electric bill?


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## jeff00 (Jan 22, 2017)

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> how do the municipalities make money from our electric bill?


they don't, they make money by water and sewage. I should have worded that better. 

Thats why they don't want people to go off grid. If you stop using city water and sewage, the city can't charge you or charge you next to nothing

There is an example of this in Florida. A women stopped using the city water, She used rain water and she used solar for electricity and the city condemned her home and took her to court because she stilled used the sewage line. as I understand it, there were other issues but I can't remember what they were. 

I'll see if I can find the article.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I believe you are thinking about Robin Speronis.


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## jeff00 (Jan 22, 2017)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-florida-robin-speronis-fights-municipal-code

thats her


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## Bret86844 (Mar 16, 2016)

I think the bottom line is the technology is simply too expensive to be profitable.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> 3. Regulate the buy back rates (solar) for excess energy sent back to the grid to be much closer to the retail price per KW being sold by the power companies. In this instance, can someone basically earn a living by not using any power and simply selling power all day?


You are not going to earn a living off roof top solar, even if they paid you retail. Do the math. 

If you inflate the price of small solar artificially who pays the difference? In my state that inflated cost would go into the rate base, driving up the cost electricity to all ratepayers.

The net metering programs were developed to open the door for the little guy and let him in so he could save money on his power bill. In some places they don't even pay you if you overproduce for the year. In mine, they would reimburse you at a rate near the average cost of purchased power. The payment is designed to balance the books between the poco and the customer.

If you want to be a power producer or a QF, you can do that. But you will need to have suitable property, go thru more steps to do it, produce more power, feed the utility at a much higher voltage level,etc.
With a long term contract, they will pay you at a higher rate and there are multipliers for time of year and date. At peak times during the summer you can make twice what you would as compared to a weekend in the late fall or winter.

Just the metering used to get make those rates available to you, would add substantial costs to to your home rooftop solar installation. 

I just sum it up by saying if you had to meet all the conditions to sell power that a normal generating facility has to go thru to sell there power, there would be no residential solar, except for those few cases where the residence is miles from a power pole.


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## Flannel Guy DIY (Mar 12, 2017)

jeff00 said:


> they don't, they make money by water and sewage. I should have worded that better.
> 
> Thats why they don't want people to go off grid. If you stop using city water and sewage, the city can't charge you or charge you next to nothing
> 
> ...


I am in NJ and my sewer charge is more than the water bill. So, disposing of used water costs more than sourcing clean water. Something is wrong with this picture. If I was not selling this house in a couple of years to move to FL, I would spend the $5k to drill a well and only use the city water as a backup.


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## Bret86844 (Mar 16, 2016)

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> So, disposing of used water costs more than sourcing clean water. Something is wrong with this picture.


Treating sewage is waaay more costly that treating water for drinking. Drinking water gets filtered and chemical treatment. Sewage needs treated all kinds of additional treatment. Think about what goes down your toilet.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Renewable energy as an income stream is a giant scam - the money just gets transferred from rate payers and tax payers to the person who can afford the panels.

If you want to reduce pollution/resource consumption or your bill with net metering, go ahead. 

Or if you want to have a self sufficient system for if the grid goes down to run essentials, it's worth it. (but u would be better off with a generator and batteries first, solar gets added after)


you can't get something for nothing.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Flannel Guy DIY said:


> I am in NJ and my sewer charge is more than the water bill. So, disposing of used water costs more than sourcing clean water. Something is wrong with this picture.


Pumping water from an aquifer or other clean source around pipes and distributing it to a community costs a helluva lot less then taking in the effluent, piping it to a treatment plant, digesting it, filtering it, purifying it to an acceptable standard and then discharging it safely. 



> If I was not selling this house in a couple of years to move to FL, I would spend the $5k to drill a well and only use the city water as a backup.


Depending on how you're billed for sewage, that would only eliminate your water bill, but increase your electric bill. If your sewage is tied to your water bill, you might find yourself in the same position as the people in Florida who tried to duck their sewage bill by using no public water.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

the best way to reduce the sewage charge is to use less water.

could go as far as using composting toilet - > but i would be leary of using the product to grow vegetables because of the risk of pathogen transmission.

using potable water to flush waste down the toilet is probably the dumbest thing we do. it's particularly stupid in areas that depend on finite aquifers. 

And the waste isn't even recycled back into where the food was grown, so we deplete the soil and apply chemical fertilizers.


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