# One hour, and still cant get hold down spring onto brake shoe.



## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

How would "Grasshopper" (from TV show Kung Fu)do it without swearing all kinds or 4 letter words?? Im convinced theres some kind of factory defect on these "OEM" parts. Im using the tips of a needle nose to push it down, then trying to twist into that crevice. 

People, tips appreciated. I thought I had problems with the brake cylinder removal- that was EASY!!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

there is a tool for that:










but I usually use these:










and the method displayed in the photo with one hand holding the head of the pin/nail while using the tool to guide and rotate the retainer WITH THE SPRING STUCK ONTO IT


btw:the spring will "snap" onto the retainer so you have effectively one piece to maneuver around.

maybe I should have started with:

Oh young grass hoppa, one must learn patience. Only with patience can one have the lucidity of mind that is required to perform such a daunting task. Here, attempt to snatch a tool from my hand. If you can take the tool, you will be ready to go forward and install the springs.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

LOL!

Thanks, nap. what gets me is that the other side (the other brake shoe) was so easy, like there was plenty of play. Its like on this one, I need just about a millimeter more of depth. If your Kung Fu method doesnt work, I may remove shoe, rub off grease of backing, and grind down a mm or 2. Whats wrong with that, Master?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

depending what portion of the shoe the pad rides, it may not be possible to grind the shoe to benefit you. While some wear pads are along the outer radius of the shoe, some were made so the web of the shoe rides on the pads. If the wear pad rides on the outer radius of the shoe, if you do grind it you have to grind it far enough so as the shoe rotates (when you apply the brakes the shoes actually are subjected to a rotational action) the shoe doesn't get hung up on the wear pad...



better yet, just don't do that. With patience and persistence (aka tenacity) you can do it. You can be the new tenancious D, you know, because ducks quack and all....(where's that darned red cheeked embarrassed emoji)


try this:

put the pin in place. Put the shoe in place. Slide the shoe outward just enough to allow it to slide off the mounting pads but not so far as it puts the pin at such an angle it reduces the exposed length considerably. Then you take the retainer that has the spring attached (you are getting the spring to "stick" on the retainer, right?) that is already in your vice grip pliers (and this is why I use vice grip pliers since using the "proper" tool means you have the tool and the spring/retainer assembly as separate pieces to deal with) and carefully (so as to not knock the spring loose from the retainer) put the spring over the pin and then push down with the pliers while simultaneously holding the head of the pin with a finger and the shoe with the rest of your hand and paying attention to how the head of the pin is rotated compared to the slot in the retainer and adjusting either the pin or the retainer so as to align the two and push until the pin is through the retainer far enough so you can rotate the retainer such that it locks. 



easy peasy, right? I've done a million of them (slight, but not extreme exaggeration) and I still run across some that are a real pain in the rump.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

oh, if you were considering grinding the backing plate; DON"T. I have had enough wear through and it can cause a real problem with the shoe jamming up so your brakes don't release fully.




also, if you have the e-brake actuating link in place, try it without it.

I also have pulled the pins on the wheel cylinder (you can move the shoe around and stick them back in later. Some cars easier than others) to facilitate the assembly.



and to think I used to see a bunch of women around a big round table do this 8 hours a day (somewhere around a thousand a day) . They never seemed to have these problems.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks, nap. yes, I am doing all you warned about- spring is "crimped" to the outer retainer. I know about the slot in retainer "direction" so pin slides in at the right angle, to be twisted once through. Thing is, the spring BOTTOMS OUT, such that the pin "tip" wond go through the retainer slot to allow it to be twisted. man, 
Im tempted to buy a gadget you pictured, but fear the bottomed out spring is the limiting factor, no matter what do hickey/gizmo one uses. 

disconnect e brake latch? Dont see how that matters, cant visualize it.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> Thing is, the spring BOTTOMS OUT, such that the pin "tip" wond go through the retainer slot to allow it to be twisted.


this is why you slide the shoe off the wear pads on the backing plate. You can make the pin stick out ever so slightly more, just enough to make it work.




> man,
> Im tempted to buy a gadget you pictured, but fear the bottomed out spring is the limiting factor, no matter what do hickey/gizmo one uses.


dpending on the tool, it can actually make it worse. Those things are kind of universal (notice the taper on the inside) so they can be used on any retainer. If your retainer is small (not implying having a small retainer is a bad thing:whistling2 it may set far enough back into that taper that the tool does in fact prevent you from pushing the retainer far enough to be able to work. That is why I use vice grips, and the very tip of them, to do this. Be careful though. I have had everything explode where things shifted and the retainer flipped out of the vice grips and the pressure of the spring made everything fly., Make sure you are wearing safety glasses (should have said that long ago)



> disconnect e brake latch? Dont see how that matters, cant visualize it.


can you post a pic?

what I am speaking of is the link. It probably looks something like number 8 in this picture:










sometimes when doing my "master mechanic fu" trick of sliding the shoe a bit to allow for the pin to protrude a bit more, that thing gets in the way and does not allow the shoe to move the direction I want it to go.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ok, I get it now, master. i will try the slide trick. I will also buy a pair of pointy pliers/grips. I will let you know how it goes, OK?

Gotta watch tv now- dark outside. reruns......lol


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

You may try switching the pins, sometimes one is just a little longer than the other.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

This thread reminds me: I REALLY HATE drum brakes!


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

The right tool is cheaper to buy and easier to use than the vise grips. I have done many, many drum brakes.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

rusty baker said:


> The right tool is cheaper to buy and easier to use than the vise grips. I have done many, many drum brakes.


I've done it for a living (one employer was one of those places that specialize in brakes and exhaust so I did a LOT of brakes) as well as a hobbyist for 35 years and I have to disagree with ya. 

but to each their own. Ya use what works for ya, regardless of whether it works for others. I like the vice grips over the real deal tool, at least for this particular situation.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Update: I bought that special tool at Advance auto, and woah- it worked so great!! Thanks, Nap!! After, I put back on the drums, and looks like final problem- one drum fits nicely, no drag, but the other drum, so bad. when I push it onto the wheel (the adjuster screw is maxed out in the "in" position, smallest shoe diameter) it sticks so bad!! Dont know what the problem could be. Usually, arent drums worn such that they dont "stick"? 

Its sticking so bad the drum wont turn for beans once pushed on. I pulled it off with some force. I'll wait to see what the members say here.......

Thanks again, people. especially nap.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Frozen parking brake cable? Remove the parking brake cable from the arm on that side and see if the drum fits better.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

thnaks, 1985gt. I should have also mentioned (very important) that when I switched the drums the other side drum also hung up- so its not the drums.........let me try the brake cable thing....


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

^^. Definitely one thing to check


Also check to be sure the wheel cylinder pins (the things that go into the ends of the wheel cylinder and push on the web of the shoe) are actually where they are supposed to be. 

Did you ever say what kind of car this is? Being able to look at a pic or drawing of the assembly might allow me to point out something else.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I had a big ol post written but it went poof. 



Did you ever say what kind of car this is? Being able to look at a pic or drawing might allow me to point out something else was well



Edit; that's spooky. Now the post showed up.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Sure could be a rusted parking brake cable. That is why I tell my GF no matter how flat it is always use your parking brake. Rust never sleeps....


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

thanks again, people- looks like after I wire brushed the thread on the e brake cable adjuster bolt, them lubed it, then loosened it up a few turns, I could see the e brake lever in the wheel change angle.

I popped the drum on aND boom- ALL WAS SMOOTH/EVEN/NICE!! yahoo!!

project completed!!! I get to drive my (now I can say what car it is) 1987 Pontiac Sunbird GT to work again!! Thaks to all here!!!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

wow, if you can keep it running at this age, no need to be shy about what it is. 

and the fact you could even move the parking brake cable adjuster; double wow.


just to make sure; you bled the hydraulic system well, right?


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

nap said:


> wow, if you can keep it running at this age, no need to be shy about what it is.
> 
> and the fact you could even move the parking brake cable adjuster; double wow.
> 
> ...


right- I bled the 2 rears for now. Will do the fronts in a year or so. And yes, the adjuster was caked with mud/crud/goo, thats why I had to wire brush it first. 

yes, as far as the car 'running", well, it runs very well. Starts every morning. Runs rough, though, not sure why- been doin it for 12 years now- chased every single thing on Earth. Came up with nothing. Stoped fretting about it- hey, like you said, it runs. Thanks for the compliments.


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## JD367 (Apr 6, 2015)

Just a suggestion,but are you sure you have ONE leading shoe, and ONE trailing shoe, on each side,and they are in the correct position?
I've seen guys do this that work every day on them(don't ask how I know).


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

JD367 said:


> Just a suggestion,but are you sure you have ONE leading shoe, and ONE trailing shoe, on each side,and they are in the correct position?
> I've seen guys do this that work every day on them(don't ask how I know).


hmmmmm, they looked exactly alike when matched side by side.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

noquacks said:


> hmmmmm, they looked exactly alike when matched side by side.


but do all 4 match.


when you have a brake design that is called "self energizing", one shoe (the front one) is shorter at the top. This causes that shoe to actually wedge into the drum increasing the force applied which is then transferred through a moving link at the bottom of the shoe to the rear shoe. 




even with unequal length shoes, there are some that are close enough to not be overly apparent so sometimes I have to simply set one on top of the other to see.


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