# Insulating unfinshed basement ceiling for sound



## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

My laundry room is in an unfinished area in my basement. A lot of the sounds from the laundry room (washer/dryer noises, people talking) can be heard in my kitchen that is right about the basement laundry room.

If I add some insulation in between the ceiling joists, I would assume that would help deaden the sound. Since I am not going to finish the laundry room, the insulation I put between the ceiling joists will obviously be exposed.

Is it mandatory that the insulation be covered? If not, would install the insulation paper side up or down?


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

I can't answer your question about covering the insulation, but I can tell you that you don't need, in fact you don't want, paper on the insulation you are installing.


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

Garasaki said:


> I can't answer your question about covering the insulation, but I can tell you that you don't need, in fact you don't want, paper on the insulation you are installing.


So, I should go with unfaced insulation in the ceiling?


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

anyone?


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Faced or unfaced, I would think you'd want to cover the insulation to keep the fibers from "raining down" every time someone walks around upstairs........


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

My nephew bought some sound-proofing insulation at Lowe's so his wife doesn't have to hear him playing drums downstairs. I believe he said he had to special-order it.

Here is a website that has some info about soundproofing:

http://www.soundproofing101.com/


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

What about putting the insulation between the rafters paper side down to limit the fiberglass from "falling" This is going to be in an unfinished, un heated laundry room in the basement


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

That would certainly help to some degree. Some sort of ceiling would be best, even if you have to just piece it in around pipes or whatever may be in the way....


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## satz (Jan 15, 2009)

I have insulation with the paper side up held by metal strips you can buy for holding insulation. I went further and added a layer of sheet used to seal insulation as i have my office and did not want fiberglass falling down over time with walking on hardwood floors.

It is not 100% sound proof but except of loud noise i do not hear much.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Fiberglass insulation is not a particularly good sound proofer. There are sound dampening insulation batts available that will do a better job. If you must use fiberglass, then try to use unfaced. You don't need a vapor retarder and if you end up using kraft faced then at least put the paper toward the warmest side of the area you're installing it into. Keep in mind that if the space in the basement hasn't got a heat source, it will get colder with insulation stopping the radiant heat from the ceiling along with the sound.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Even stapling up some heavy duty plastic will work as long as it's not near a heat source (exhaust vent for the furnace or such).


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

Maintenance 6 said:


> Fiberglass insulation is not a particularly good sound proofer. There are sound dampening insulation batts available that will do a better job. If you must use fiberglass, then try to use unfaced. You don't need a vapor retarder and if you end up using kraft faced then at least put the paper toward the warmest side of the area you're installing it into. Keep in mind that if the space in the basement hasn't got a heat source, it will get colder with insulation stopping the radiant heat from the ceiling along with the sound.


The room is a laundry room and has the furnace in it. I'm not worried about keeping it warm and I have finished other parts of the basement and they are heated.

I am just looking for some noise control to keep the washer/dryer/furnace noises from travelling upstairs.

I did notice when I put insulation between the ceiling joists in the part of the basement (before I put drywall up) that I did finish, it really deadened the sound. 

The laundry room is right below my kitchen so there will be a lot of foot traffic from above. I was thinking about putting kraft faced insulation with the paper side facing down and using the metal insulation supports to hold it up. The laundry room is only used once or twice a week


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Yes it will help deaden the sound. And again, I'd put something up to further insure your clean clothes don't get "insulated". I'm guessing you've got pipes coming through the floor/ceiling is why you don't want to hang drywall?? Just piece it in as best you can and "rough" tape it to seal it. Or as I suggested before, staple up some heavy plastic. Just keep that away from heat sources (exhaust vents). You could even use some rigid foam, way lighter than drywall and will help with sound.........


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

Another question...

I am going to build a bedroom in my basement. It will be heated. My plan was to adhear 1" foam insulation to the block foundation then frame the walls.

In addition to putting the foam insulation on the block walls, should I put R19 pink insulation in the framed out walls? If so, should it be faced or unfaced? Or is that too much insulation (foam and fiberglass) and could cause problems?


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

You may find this web page of interest! http://www.roxul.com/sw47802.asp I used this in my garage that has a 1/12 pitch roof with 2X8 rafters! I cut lengths of #10 iron wire, 14 3/4" in length and used these wire lengths, pressed up between the joists to prevent the bats from working their way down!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Wildie, did you find Roxul for sale in the U.S.?


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

daveyd said:


> Another question...
> 
> I am going to build a bedroom in my basement. It will be heated. My plan was to adhear 1" foam insulation to the block foundation then frame the walls.
> 
> In addition to putting the foam insulation on the block walls, should I put R19 pink insulation in the framed out walls? If so, should it be faced or unfaced? Or is that too much insulation (foam and fiberglass) and could cause problems?


Any comment?


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

up again


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> Wildie, did you find Roxul for sale in the U.S.?


 I live in Canada and bought mine at Home Depot! According to their webpage they sell in many country's. I would assume the HD in the US would likely have it!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Their residential products aren't available in the U.S., just the commercial and industrial.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> Their residential products aren't available in the U.S., just the commercial and industrial.


 That's interesting! The US is usually the first place Canadians look to send their products! After using this insulation, I never consider using anything else. Its nice to work with, doesn't give off particles like f/g. It doesn't melt in a fire, so forms a fire barrier. I once seen a demo, where a block of f/g and a block of Roxul were floated in a bucket of water, for a period of time. The f/g sunk quickly, whereas the Roxul was still floating like a cork, the next day! As Home Depot sells this in Canada, I would think that HD in the US would be willing to order it in for you! Is it possible that the national building code doesn't allow this? That's the only reason that I can imagine, that its not sold in the states!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm not sure of their reason. Here is the response I got from them in an email:



> Thank you for your inquiry. With regards to your e-mail, our residential products are not available in the USA - only our commercial and industrial products. The one batt insulation we do offer to the US is Roxul AFB® (Acoustical Fire Batt). This is a commercial product designed for acoustical performance for interior partitions. The sizing of this product is for steel stud which means the batts will be exactly 16" and 24" wide. If you intend to use AFB® for your home in a wood stud application, you may have to cut off a small amount from each batt. AFB® thickness ranges from 1" to 4" in 0.5 increments, then 5", and 6". We do track the R-value of this product, which comes to R 4.1/inch, not 4.3/inch. For example, if you have a 3.5" product, you will have an R-value slightly above R14.


I'm on my way to Home Depot right now, I'm going to ask the store manager if he knows the reason or if he can special-order some. When I asked about it at Lowe's, the employee in the insulation dept. didn't know what I was talking about. He called his boss and he didn't know either. I only know about it from watching Holmes on Homes. They say the same kind of things about it on the show as you said in your post. I'm going to be in Detroit in March and I thought about going over to Windsor to buy some, but I'm not sure they'd let me bring it back into the U.S.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> I'm not sure of their reason. Here is the response I got from them in an email:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on my way to Home Depot right now, I'm going to ask the store manager if he knows the reason or if he can special-order some. When I asked about it at Lowe's, the employee in the insulation dept. didn't know what I was talking about. He called his boss and he didn't know either. I only know about it from watching Holmes on Homes. They say the same kind of things about it on the show as you said in your post. I'm going to be in Detroit in March and I thought about going over to Windsor to buy some, but I'm not sure they'd let me bring it back into the U.S.


 I can't imagine why they would prevent you from bringing it back with you! After all, we do have free trade! I know that there are limits on food stuff, mainly on tropical foods such as oranges and grapefruit. And some kinds of meat! When I used to go to Texas, I was able to look at a website operated by the US government, that listing prohibited goods. If I can find it again, I'll post it here!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

daveyd, I think you can also add insulation between the 2x4's after using foamboard on the block walls. As far as whether to use faced or unfaced fiberglass, it probably depends on whether or not the foamboard you put up will qualify as a vapor barrier and how well you seal it between, above and below each piece. I don't think you will have too much insulation, it will just give you a higher R value. Here is a website that gives a lot of information about insulating a basement:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/building_america/pdfs/db/35017.pdf


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

It was a no-go at Home Depot. The guy behind the contractor's desk didn't know what Roxul was. But he said he could try to special order it when I need some. When I told him about the Safe & Sound, he said that fiberglass insulation has some sound deadening qualities :whistling2: . Sound deadening qualities? There is ceiling insulation in the finished half of our basement and insulation in the ceiling of our main floor. Where were those 'sound deadening qualities' when I was working up in the attic, singing quietly, thinking nobody in the basement could hear me? :walkman: They told me I should stick to singing when I'm alone in the car with the windows up. :shutup: :yes: :laughing:

Daveyd do you have a Home Builders Association anywhere in your area? The last I knew, the one near me has a sale once or twice a year and they sell all the leftover building materials their members couldn't return to the store. They might have some kind of sound proofing materials from building home theaters or home music studios. Also, contact a few electronics stores and ask to talk to their guy that designs home theaters. He might be able to tell you where to buy or get some.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> I'm not sure of their reason. Here is the response I got from them in an email:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on my way to Home Depot right now, I'm going to ask the store manager if he knows the reason or if he can special-order some. When I asked about it at Lowe's, the employee in the insulation dept. didn't know what I was talking about. He called his boss and he didn't know either. I only know about it from watching Holmes on Homes. They say the same kind of things about it on the show as you said in your post. I'm going to be in Detroit in March and I thought about going over to Windsor to buy some, but I'm not sure they'd let me bring it back into the U.S.


 Found this info, about importing goods into the US! Personal Exemption for U.S. Visitors Returning from Canada: 1. Less than 48 hours stay - You may anytime bring back $200 (U.S.) worth of personal merchandise. Remember, if you exceed the $200 exemption, all your items become dutiable. 2. Over 48 hours stay - Every 30 days you are allowed to bring back free of tax and duty $800.00 (U.S.) worth of personal merchandise. You may include 100 cigars (non-Cuban), 200 cigarettes and 1 litre (34 oz.) of alcoholic beverage as part of your exemption. Articles in excess of the personal exemption up to $1,000 will be assessed a duty. Members of families traveling together are permitted to combine their exemptions. Unsolicited gifts worth up to $50.00 (U.S.) may be sent by mail into the U.S. Hope this helps!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow, that's good to know. Thanks for finding that and posting it. Maybe I'll just scoot over into Windsor every time I go to Detroit and buy a little less than $200 worth until I have what I need. I probably won't be able to carry even that much at one time. Thanks again. 

Do they keep track of the time and name of every person going over the border?


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> Wow, that's good to know. Thanks for finding that and posting it. Maybe I'll just scoot over into Windsor every time I go to Detroit and buy a little less than $200 worth until I have what I need. I probably won't be able to carry even that much at one time. Thanks again.
> 
> Do they keep track of the time and name of every person going over the border?


 I imagine that they would! Keep in mind that you will require a passport to get back into the US. Its not required to come to Canada, but you'll need it to get back!
If you bring a friend, then you could bring back $400 worth!


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## jpfreak33 (Jan 29, 2009)

What about using the insulation between the joist and then putting up some 3/4 or 1" foam board. It would give you more sound proofing and keep the insulation in the ceiling and not on your laundry. Wouldn't cost that much more to do, the foam board is pretty cheap


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

jpfreak33 said:


> What about using the insulation between the joist and then putting up some 3/4 or 1" foam board. It would give you more sound proofing and keep the insulation in the ceiling and not on your laundry. Wouldn't cost that much more to do, the foam board is pretty cheap


 The foam board must be covered by drywall, as its flammable.


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

I am putting Dow Super Tuff-R foam insulation on the block walls. http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/supertuffr.htm

According to their website, you are supposed to use unfaced insulation betweeen the studs.
Interior Basement Wall (Foam and Stud Wall Framing) – Installing STYROFOAM™ Square Edge, Tongue & Groove, SCOREBOARD™, Super TUFF-R™, or TUFF-R

1. Install insulation over interior side of basement wall. Foam insulation may be held in place temporarily using spots of compatible adhesive.
2. Build conventional wood stud wall that firmly presses foam insulation against basement wall.
3. Install unfaced batts in stud cavities.
4. Install drywall over studs.
5. Tape and finish drywall according to manufacturer's directions

How does the unfaced insulation stay between the wall studs as nothing is being stapled to the studs?


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

It seems like the fiberglass will settle over the years. Did they say anything about a vapor barrier (retarder) or does the foam board act as one. I guess they don't suggest it if they say to use unfaced. Does it tell you to seal and tape the seams of the boards and to use sprayfoam at the top and bottom of the boards? If the foamboard is your vapor barrier, it has to be completely sealed.

I don't know why you couldn't use faced insulation so that you at least have an edge to staple it between the studs up at the top, but just slash the paper as you would if you were adding a second layer of batt insulation in an attic. You'll want to get someone else's opinion about it.


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

gma2rjc said:


> It seems like the fiberglass will settle over the years. Did they say anything about a vapor barrier (retarder) or does the foam board act as one. I guess they don't suggest it if they say to use unfaced. Does it tell you to seal and tape the seams of the boards and to use sprayfoam at the top and bottom of the boards? If the foamboard is your vapor barrier, it has to be completely sealed.
> 
> I don't know why you couldn't use faced insulation so that you at least have an edge to staple it between the studs up at the top, but just slash the paper as you would if you were adding a second layer of batt insulation in an attic. You'll want to get someone else's opinion about it.


 
Yea, you definitely have to tape the seams. The faom has a foil on it that acts as a vapor barrier. I would think that if you used faced insulation, you would have a double vapor barrier. I wouls assume that would be a bad thing...but what do I know


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

You're right, you don't want a double vapor barrier. That's why, if you slice holes in the facing of the batts, it's no longer considered a vapor barrier. That's true for an attic. Now that I think about it though, it might not hold true if it's covered with drywall.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

daveyd said:


> I am putting Dow Super Tuff-R foam insulation on the block walls. http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/supertuffr.htm
> 
> According to their website, you are supposed to use unfaced insulation betweeen the studs.
> Interior Basement Wall (Foam and Stud Wall Framing) – Installing STYROFOAM™ Square Edge, Tongue & Groove, SCOREBOARD™, Super TUFF-R™, or TUFF-R
> ...


 Its a friction fit until its sandwiched between the foam and the drywall!


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## daveyd (Jan 16, 2009)

Any tips on how to install the 4x8 sheets of foam board onto the block walls when the foam boards are bowed? This is a real pain...I am using Liquid Nails to attach the foam to the block but when I push the bottom of the foam onto the wall, the top pops out an inch or so.

If I look at the foam boards, i can see they are bowed out. Any ideas?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

I used to work for a defense contractor. We did a lot of "Black Ops" rooms where the sound transmission through walls, windows, doors, ceilings, pipes, and flooring had to pass rigid government DB tests.

Fiberglass insulation was right at the bottom of the list when it came to dampening sound transmissions. Hardly much better than just open air.

Engineered boards, rubber type sheets, isolation stand-offs for the board insulation, and total double-wall separation were the most effective applications.

I think you will be disappointed with just fiberglass. Honestly, just a single sheet of 5/8" drywall will do better for you if you choose not to go with the sound board.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

> Engineered boards, rubber type sheets, isolation stand-offs for the board insulation


Are 'engineered boards' MDF, OSB etc.? What are 'rubber type sheets' and who sells them? What do you mean by 'isolation stand-offs for the board insulation'?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

gma2rjc said:


> Are 'engineered boards' MDF, OSB etc.? What are 'rubber type sheets' and who sells them? What do you mean by 'isolation stand-offs for the board insulation'?



_'engineered boards'_ : No, I mean construction wall material that is engineered to reduce sound transmissions. It usually comes in sheets (boards)
_'rubber type sheets' _: Roll-out sheets of open -celled (not hard and stiff) rubber-like material that does not permit good transmission of sound through it. Try a Goodyear dealer.
_'isolation stand-offs'_ : These can be almost anything (even homemade) that will isolate the direct connection of one material to another. In the case we are discussing, these would made of a non-sound-transmitting substance.

ie: A strip of rubber with wood bonded to one side.
Envision screwing a series of these strips perpendicular to the bottoms of your joists (wood side, down). Now, you mount your ceiling drywall to these strips, screwing the drywall only in locations where the screws will NOT go into the joists.

This will discourage the direct transmission of sound through the hard joists that would ordinarily occur if the drywall was snugged up tight and solid against those joists with screws or nails. As difficult as it may be to believe, significant sound can travel right through the screws or nails, themselves, into the fibers of the joists, and on up through the tightly fastened flooring above.

The main concept to sound deadening is to detour the sound waves. Sound travels very poorly around random corners... thats why you have a hard time hearing your spouse out in the kitchen... it's not direct sound transmission.
You can find out a lot about this stuff online. It's a whole world unto itself.


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