# Cobra Ridge Vent Or Air Vent Shinglevent ll ?



## AtlanticWBConst.

My Vote:

*Air Vent Shinglevent ll *


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## Ed the Roofer

Air Vent's Shingle Vent II is the only ridge vent product I will use. Go to there web site and review the comparative air flow testing results and the moisture infiltration testing results and order the free DVD's with other attribute comparisons such as an internal attic smoke pot test for actual air flow out of the attic.

Ed


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## RooferJim

Cobra vent Is better. 



RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Docfletcher

Well, I see Ed The Roofer has chimed in with some information which he feels supports the use of Shingle Vent ll . Atlantic WB Construction also seems to favor it. Roofer Jim however, feels there is much to be said for Cobra Vent ll. I'm sure you all have your reasons for favoring one over the other. With that in mind I would like to ask you to tell the readers of the forum why? 

I can see my ignorance has the potential to hurt me. I say this because I have just found out there is a Cobra vent lll. It says premium rigid style. LOL!:laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer

Ed the Roofer said:


> Go to the Air Vent web site and review the comparative air flow testing results and the moisture infiltration testing results and order the free DVD's with other attribute comparisons such as an internal attic smoke pot test for actual air flow out of the attic.


The comparison tests are what had initially made up my mind and then the past 16 years of exclusively using that brand of ridge vent without one single problem, either functional or cosmetic, has me sold on my continuing usage of that product.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

Nice! Stick with what works. I like that.:thumbsup:


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## Ed the Roofer

An additional reason that I patronize the Air Vent Corporation and utilize their product line, is that they have done much to improve the proper ventilation education of many contractors out there and also building code inspectors and architects as well.

I have a great deal of respect for them advancing the knowledge for all of the industry to feast upon, without there being any guarantee that those who utilize their educational resources will also purchase their products.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

A resounding vote of confidence in product and company. Well said as well.


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## Ed the Roofer

One product that was erroniously shipped to one of my job sites, was the Snow Country ridge vent, which I believe is manufactured by GAF Building Products. 

It seemed like a very good immitation of the Air Vent Shingle Vent II Ridge Vent product.

Actually, it was such a good imitation, I was wondering how many days before I saw legal reports making claims against GAF for patent infringement.

Possibly, there are some differences which I could not tell, being just a simple roofing contractor.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

Roofing contractor for sure...Not so simple though.:thumbup:


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## RooferJim

Shingle vent is great for there "drink the coolaid" seminar where they make you think its better than sliced bread. I went to it, and I also installed thousands of feet of it, However there are several problems. one is that pine needles tend to get traped in the vent and you cant get them out. another is that the baffel warps and looks like spagetti after about six or so years. I went back to regular cobra and im not buying the propaganda or drinking there coolaid. One time or another I have tried every ridge vent out there.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Docfletcher

Thanks for that information. I don't want any problems like that. I wonder if others have had experiences like that? If it 
is a problem with design I would hope they are aware of it,
and working on a fix. :huh: Wow I just went to your website, your very nice website. 
Good job!


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## Malcolm

RooferJim said:


> Shingle vent is great for there "drink the coolaid" seminar where they make you think its better than sliced bread. I went to it, and I also installed thousands of feet of it, However there are several problems. one is that pine needles tend to get traped in the vent and you cant get them out. another is that the baffel warps and looks like spagetti after about six or so years. I went back to regular cobra and im not buying the propaganda or drinking there coolaid. One time or another I have tried every ridge vent out there.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


I was wondering if you ever tried OC ventsure and had any opinions on it.


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## MJW

RooferJim said:


> Shingle vent is great for there "drink the coolaid" seminar where they make you think its better than sliced bread. I went to it, and I also installed thousands of feet of it, However there are several problems. one is that pine needles tend to get traped in the vent and you cant get them out. another is that the baffel warps and looks like spagetti after about six or so years. I went back to regular cobra and im not buying the propaganda or drinking there coolaid. One time or another I have tried every ridge vent out there.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


 
I agree about the shinglevent. It does breathe better than cobra though. I have found that low-pro omni-roll to work the best. It breathes better than cobra and doesn't let bugs and bats in like shingle vent along with the other problems mentioned.

I wouldn't choose GAF over Certainteed just for the ridge. The shingles are the most important part. The Timberline ridge is a triple layer, but they fall apart easy just tearing them up to put them on. The tar strip to hold two of the ply's together is offset too and makes them hard to work with.
We always used to order 3-tabs for ridge and we should go back to that. The are stronger, but don't look quite as sharp if the can be seen from the ground.


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## RooferJim

Have you ever tried doubleing up three tabs for caps ? it looks very similar to Timbertex.


RooferJim


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## Docfletcher

I'm not sure what you mean by doubling up? My roof currently has the old style metal ridge vent. No shingles on it! So none to blow off or crack, fall apart or whatever. I always liked the way it looked too.LOL


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## MJW

When they take off the metal you will see how dirty the venting part is. Cobra does the same and plugs up. Then it slowly doesn't breathe as well just like the old metal grate soffit vents.


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## Docfletcher

Well then, we will see. There is no filter material in mine. The air simply goes up into a upside down 'U" shaped area, then out the side next to the deflector plate. Even though the air makes a "U" turn it seems to work. At least I think it does because I can feel air coming out.


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## MJW

Surprising it doesn't leak then unless you have a steeper pitch.


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## Ed the Roofer

RooferJim said:


> Shingle vent is great for there "drink the coolaid" seminar where they make you think its better than sliced bread. I went to it, and I also installed thousands of feet of it,
> 
> *1. However there are several problems. one is that pine needles tend to get traped in the vent and you cant get them out.*
> 
> *2. another is that the baffel warps and looks like spagetti after about six or so years.*
> 
> I went back to regular cobra and im not buying the propaganda or drinking there coolaid. One time or another I have tried every ridge vent out there.
> 
> RooferJim


 
Jim,



*I just happened to be on a roof where we installed the Shingle Vent II 8 Years and 11 Months ago. I couldn't resist taking actual field test photos of them.*


I see no spaghetti like wavy appearance or pine needles or any other debris stuck in the trough of the external baffle. (Except for the fresh bird poop in the end of the roof photo on the left side of the trough.)

Are you sure you installed them correctly?

We always use 2 1/2" hand nails and nail in every one of the designated nail placement locations on the vent product. They sort of make it idiot proof, except for providing the proper sized nails or any nails at all for that matter.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

I don't know why it don't leak. It's aluminum from Sept 1984. I'm sure it don't though. I used to go up in the attic every time it rained day or night to check it. LOL:laughing: 

I looked at the photos of shingle vent ll. Here at my house I'm sure tree crap and pieces of leaves etc would fall into the area of the slots. Just as they do in my current vent. No slots in mine though. You can put your fingers where the slots would be and curl them up toward the top of the vent. As a matter of fact it is at that top that the air come out. I don't know any way around stuff falling in and on there. It almost acts like a gutter. I use a back pack blower once or twice a year to clean out the gutters (YUCK) and while I'm at it I blow out rhe channel of the vent. I need to get some tree work done. Might cost almost as much as the roof.

By the way do gutters get discussed here in the roofing forum?


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## Ed the Roofer

As I stated in my recent post, the photos are of a nearly 9 year old roof with significant evergreen trees and broad leaf trees abutting the roof area.

The gutters need cleaning 3-4 times per year, but the Shingle Vent II external wind deflecting baffle trough is completely obstacle free.

I did not clean out the vent troughs prior to taking the photos, in case someone were to question that aspect.



Yes, gutter questions can be asked in the roofing forum.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

My trees actually overhang the house. Very much contributing to my lovely moss garden on the roof. I let them go to long for sure. If I didn't clean the gutters with a back pack blower I'd have a gutter garden for sure. If the shingle vent ll deflects the trash as well as the wind, and if the warping problem on some is do to factors other than the product (which my gut feeling tells me is most likely) then that seems ok. Whats not to like... 

I know with the 4 bundle per sq type shingle you are supposed to caulk under the vent any low spots caused by
the mismatch in height from lower lamination to top lamination. A roofer would need to be true craftsman and dedicated to take the time to do that I think. Or I could be wrong as I have not tried it. Sounds time consuming.


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## amazer

We're in the middle of having a new roof installed (GAF Timberline Ultra) and, based on the recommendations I came across on this site, opted to use the GAF Snow Country ridge vent system. The roofers just finished the area over our family room (the only part of the house with a cathedral ceiling) and ran Snow Country over the 15' ridge.

The problem is: I hate it. Snow Country is a big eyesore, in my opinion. The shingles that cap the ridge stick up a couple of inches above the other shingles and the black plastic of the ridge vent protrudes about two inches beyond the edge of the capping shingles. It's really ugly.

We're having the roofers remove the Snow Country and install a lower profile system. They can't recall the name of the product, but describe it as being made of plastic in the form of corrugated cardboard that lifts the cap shingles just slightly off the roof for ventilation.

Bottom line: if you care at all for aesthetics, avoid Snow Country and Shingle Vent II type products!

(I expect to be excoriated for my statements here, but that's OK, I won't take it personally)


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## Ed the Roofer

You are the extremely rare individual who thinks that the ridge vents you mentioned are an eyesore.

Personally, I prefer function over form. I mean that I prefer to install the product which offers the greatest amount of air flowage and the lack of potential weather infiltration.

I don't know about the Snow Country brand, but the Shingle Vent II comes in 4 color choices, black, brown, charcoal and grey to blend in with the color of the shingle chosen.

If you really want a ridge vent that is unobtrusive, then I recommend the Smart Ridge I, from DCI Products, which allows the shinlgles to completely seal one side whil allowing the entir\e air flow to exhaust from the opposing side. I am awaiting a new wind dynamics study which shows that the amount od airflow from this one sided vent actually provides as much or more exhaust ventilation as the other brands, although the logistics seem otherwise.

Jack, if you are reading this, please forward the wind study to me that we spoke of.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

If memory serves... When I watched the GAF Snow Country ridge vent installation video, the cap shingles were literally folded over 1" or 1 1/2" twice at the ends. Then nailed in place. This gives them pronounced slant or rise end to end. Personally I like that look. However, I can understand how a short run over fifteen feet might look somewhat ungainly.


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## amazer

*Pictures worth 1000 bits of verbiage*

For what it's worth, here's a link to my Flickr page (with lots of boring shots of friends and family) with 3 shots I took of the Snow Country ridge vent.

Ed, I can see you also frequent the Roofing.com site, so please excuse this redundancy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andykaren/?saved=1

I'm wondering if this looks like a normal installation. I too generally perform function over form, unless the results look bad. This strikes me as clumsy-looking, but I'm open to alternative points of view. Click the photo, then click "All Sizes" button above the picture for extreeme close up

Thanks,
Andy


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## adawg

Any chance that the pros have some pics of either the shinglevent II or Snow country ridge vents installed? Scoured the net and came up empty.

Many thanks!


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## Docfletcher

I looked for the video at the GAF site that showed roofers installing and folding the cap shingles. I could not find it.


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## Ed the Roofer

adawg,

Go back and check out post # 21 of this thread and you will see a 9 + year old Shingle Vent II Ridge Vent installation.

amazer.

The ONLY thing that looks out of place on the ridge vent installation from your photos I saw at the other site, is that the roofer did not run the vent 100 % of the length of the ridge.

Ed


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## amazer

Hey thanks for all your comments, everyone. We decided to use the Snow Country after all and just make sure that the product is used across the entire ridge line. I think the main aesthetic problem comes about when you have this bulging ridge vent that stops short of the end. I'll ask my roofer to just extend the vent to the chimney, which will eliminate the awkwardness in that one area they've done so far..

Really appreciated Ed's comments about DCI's SmartVent product. My roofer is impressed with it, and it does enable a very clean-looking installation. So far we've got it installed on one side of the house.

We had some surprises taking off the old shingles-- on about half the roof, the house had no felt under the shingles. They were just nailed onto the plywood directly. They still delivered 21 years of service,.. but I'm glad to be replacing them now, espeically since these was one wet area of roof under the shiingles.

By the way, my roofer suggested that we not bother to replace the galvinized drip edges along the eves. They seem to be in good physical condition, but a bit discolored after 20 years. He says that, largely due to acid rain and galvanized steel's properties, that the drip edges will get identically discolored in a year or so anyway, so there's no real point to replacing them. What's your opinion?


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## Ed the Roofer

amazer said:


> By the way, my roofer suggested that we not bother to replace the galvinized drip edges along the eves. They seem to be in good physical condition, but a bit discolored after 20 years. He says that, largely due to acid rain and galvanized steel's properties, that the drip edges will get identically discolored in a year or so anyway, so there's no real point to replacing them. What's your opinion?


This is a little bit late to be asking that question, isn't it?

The roof is already done and it would potentially cause more damage than good by replacing it now. The only time that I leave the existing gutter apron drip edge metal in place, is if the gutter hangers are screwed or nailed through the old metal and if we are not replacing or re-setting the existing gutters. If it is not visible from the ground as if it were tucked into the existing gutter troughs, the color fade would not be important.

I always use color coordinated aluminum pre-bent gutter apron drip edge flashings when I quote a new roof. 

The lack of including the drip edge metals, both the gutter apron and the gable edge drip edge flashings is were alot of contractors cut corners and attempt to keep their price quote lower than others. Sometimes they state that the installation of the gable edge drip edge metals looks unsightly, but that is due to a lack of experience in the proper installation of these very thin, but functional and decorative sections of drip edge flashing materials. 

I prefer to do it the Right Way, not the Cheapest Way.

Ed


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## amazer

I had asked this question about replacing old drip edge because the majority of the house hasn't been shingled yet. Tomorrow they should finish removing the shingles on the main part of the house, then they install the SmartVent, then apply Ice Shield, etc. So far, they've completed only the garage and family room areas.

Not really knowing anything about roofing, I hadn't noticed that we didn't have any gable drip edges, until my roofer pointed that out and told me he was including installing them in his bid. I have to admit the gable edging perks up the appearance, and the overall job is proceeding slowly and methodically. 

I'm happy to say that they are doing careful work and have been responsive to my concerns. For example, when I asked him to check out the DCI website about Smart Vent, he did so, and got right back to me saying that it seemed like a cool approach to ventilating and that he wanted to try it on our house. He charged me only $225 to upgrade from installing standard soffit vents (in original bid) to using SmartVent for a total of 75 running feet. Bottom line is that I reeally don't think he's out to cut corners (but I appreciate your frankness) and feel that he's sincerely trying to do a quality job.

I'm sure that if I pushed the issue, he'd be willing to replace the total of 60 feet or so of old drip edge that's still readily accessible-- what would that cost... $50 or $60? But I don't want to be petty.

I guess the bottom line is, does it matter? We have galvanized steel edging. Or would new drip edge look like old drip edge in a year or so? I have to admit the old edge doesn't look like its rusting or corroded, just a bit weather spotted.

We don't have gutters on our house, so it would be simple enough to remove the gutter apron or drip edge at the bottom of the roof.


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## Ed the Roofer

I was not directing my lack of installing drip edge material comment at your roofing contractor.

He seems like a stand up guy and represents the profession well from what you have stated.

My comment was one of my many pet peeves about the entire roofing industry. Cut out a few dollars of necessary product here and a few more dollars here, and oh by the way...you don't really believe that you need any more than 3-6 mushroom style vents...do you???????

Too many contractors are more concerned on how to do the cheapest job irregardless of the eventual outcome just so they can obtain another job on the schedule. 

Most homeowners will not realize how much they got short changed until years down the road, when they need to have their 12-15 year old roof replaced prematurely. Then they will typically feel that the shingle product did not live up to its stated warranty. Usually, it was due to all of the corners being cut during the initial installation and the specifications which were under the requirements.

Tell your roofer that there is alot more to be learned if he so desirees, by registering at the parent site, contractortalk.com where he can even further expand his business and professional knowledge.

Since he was willing to look up the Smart Vent from DCI Products, he seems like the type of contractor we need more of.

Once again:

ContractorTalk.com

Ed


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## amazer

You make some good points, Ed. Much appreciated-- in fact, Google put me on ContractorTalk.com early in my roofing research, and that was quite informative, especially since the content was from the contractor's point of view.

I can see that you contractors have your work cut out for you, since there's obviously quite a bit more to roofing than meets the eye. You have to deal with the suspicions and thriftiness of skeptical homeowners who can't quite believe that they need to revamp their ventilation systems. And you have to balance coming in with a reasonable or low bid with the real-life demands of what doing a quality job entails.

I wonder, do roofing contractors ever offer a good-better-best range of quotes to a particular job? Such as:

- 30 year shingles, no ventilation added
-30 year shingles with enlarged gable vents
-30 year shingles with soffit and ridgevents installed
-50 year shingles with SmartVent and ridge vent


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## Ed the Roofer

I can tell you how I quote my project.

It is with 3 levels of quality shingles and all 3 options include the necessary upgraded ventlation, gutter apron drip edge metal, gable edge overhanging drip edge metal, either 30 # felt paper or synthetic felt paper, Grace Ice and Water Shield along all gutter eave edges and in all valleys and around every protrusion of slope change and along all intersecting walls and the Shingle Vent II Ridge Vent. I either line item a cost for including the Smart Vent for Fresh Air Intake Ventilation or include it as part of the entire full package.

I have a collection of over 135 other companies roofing proposals, if you want to call them that, and most are a one page form, they usually offer 2 or 3 shingle price options and usually they are very non-descriptive about which actual products are to be installed. The terms are vewry vague and generic, which can lead to bait and switch or completely avoiding doing what the Home Owner had thought was to be installed because of the implication the Home Owner had from reading the one page.

My proposal is usually 6-8 pages long and very descriptive about the causes for the existing problems and the proper recommended solutions to the existing problems.

Another strong point, most contractors say "plywood" in ther bid, but that term is very generic and could be OSB board instead of exterior grade CDX plywood sheathing.

Once the contract is signed and the job is started, they will just tell the Home Owner it s just as good. Well, it is too late to do anything about it then, isn't it?

None of my written specifications offer anything less than a properly done roofing system, but, if a Home Owner chooses to reduce the specifications, they can view my pricing sheet to see if it worth deleting some usefull, already included product from their scope of work.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

Amazer,

I just did a search for the same user name over at contractortalk.com and could not find any of your previous posts.

Did you use a different user name?

Or, possibly you got deleted/banned for being a Home Owner on the contractor board?

Which threads did you get involved in, so I could see where you started your inquiries from?

Ed


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## amazer

Ed,

I browsed ContractorTalk, but didn't register, since I'm not a contractor. Didn't want to abuse the forum with my chatter! Read a number of your posts there... at the time I was mostly interested in ventilation, and learned stuff about having to close off gable vents if you install a soffit-ridge vent system. Stuff like that. Also went to (roofing dot com), which is a forum on the topic with its own opinionated and mostly knowledgeable community.

Gee, aren't you envious of all the wiggle room the other guys have in their contracts, while you're actually obliged to do a top-notch job?:hammer: I respect the way you do business, and you're certainly doing your prospective customers a service by educating them. Hopefully that good karma is coming back to you in closed contracts.

I had a certfied GAF contractor bid on our job and he was very professional, wrote up a detailed contract, took some photos of problem areas on the roof and enclosed a CD of them with his proposal. I liked the guy and his approach, but he was 60% higher than the other bid I got. (Actually I had a third bid also, but for brevity's sake I'm simplyfying).

The outfit I went with submitted a written bid that was not very detailed or specific, though we discussed the approach and materials. I now realize a bit more explicitly how this could lead to problems, but so far (halfway into the job), I've been pleased with the quality of work. I'm saving almost $6K by using this company, which is a family business in that his son-in-law, daughter and a friend are doing the work. They have WC and general liability insurance, but probably not all the coverage that bigger companies have.

I know it must be frustrating to pitch experience, a concern for quality and thoroughness, a record of accomplishment, etc., and then lose business to less "professional" companies that underbid you (I'm assuming you are a bit more expensive than the average roofing company). But as a homeowner with the usual financial concerns, I have to try and find good deals and then make calculated risks (i.e., I look for good deals on car tires, but wouldn't buy a Brand X).


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## Ed the Roofer

amazer said:


> Ed,
> 
> I'm saving almost $6K by using this company, which is a family business in that *his son-in-law, daughter and a friend* are doing the work.
> 
> *They have WC and general liability insurance, but probably not all the coverage that bigger companies have.*


 
I would be willing to bet you with over 100 to 1 odds that one of 2 things exist with their Workmans Compensation policy!!! *No, make that 1,000 to 1 odds! *I have never been wrong on this suspicion before. You know what? Even when it has been pointed out to homeowners that a "Carpentry" policy for Workers Compensation does not cover "Roofing" work, if that is their primary function of the contract, most Home Owners are still too ignorant to give a dang.

First, they declare themselves as independant workers versus payroll employees and are not officially "Covered" under the Worker Compensation Policy. (Ask to see an actual paycheck with withholding taxes.)

Second, they are calling themselve a "Remodeling" company or some other type of SIC, (Standard Industrial Code), for the purposes of obtaining a workers compensation policy with substantially lower rates. My policy cost 39 points, which is the same as saying, for every $ 100.00 of payroll, I contribute $ 39.00. i.e. $ 100,00.00 payroll for the year = $ 39,000.00 to workers compensation insurance company. (Contact the insurance company for verification that the work they are performing is covered under the policy.)

Oh! I said 2 things. There is also a 3rd potential. They all claim to be "Partners" in the business or at least the family members do. Then they are allowed to *"Exempt"* themselves from coverage. *That means that there is NO INSURANCE on them as workers on your home if any accident were to occurr.* 

Now, if any of these 3 scenarios are true, how do you feel about how they put your entire lifes most valuable asset at risk?

With the copy of workers compensation insurance policy that they gave you....Errrr, you did request a copy of the policy, didn't you? 

Call up the insurance carrier and find out if their are any exemptions or limitations or exclusions on the policy.

I could knock off $ 1,000.00 to $ 2,000.00 per bid if I had unsuspecting homeowners who didn't mind me having a fake and useless workers compensation policy.

I insist on giving every Home Owner a copy of the policy and it has the insurance companies phone number right on it for them to contact directly.

Check up on this and see if they put your assets at risk.

Ed


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## amazer

Good points, Ed. I saw a liability policy but no workers comp policy. Now I know better, but since they're halfway into the job... and, here in NH, even family members who work for an employer are required to carry WC.

By the way, what's your take on this expert's views about not plugging gable vents, even if you install a soffit and ridge vent system? Check out this page: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Roofing-1598/roof-felt-weight.htm


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## Ed the Roofer

Sometimes Stan has some very good advice and sometimes his rational just absolutely makes my eyes bug out.

He believes in Powered attic ventilation instead of ridge ventilation. He states that most of the time ridge ventilation is not necessary. He states that it is installed incorrectly.

Some of that, he is right, but just because the installer does not do his job application correctly does not mean that the product is not a better choice.

PAV's actually cost more money to operate and suck the conditioned air out of the interior environment. I will find the research article which backs thias up and post it later on.

The best thing I can say about Stan, is that he is very diligent at providing a vast amount of answers and at least most of the time his answers are at least heading in the right direction.

I was on that site about 2 days ago though, and had previously considered opting in as an alternative "Ask The Expert" provider, but i woulf find that I would wind up being in disagreement way too often and possibly the opposing views might take away from the nature of that sites intended purpose. The questions I was looking at the other night and the answers provided, were so far off base that i had to exit before my blood pressure curdled.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

Amazer, I just want to let you know that GAF states that in order for the snow country ridge vent to function correctly the gable end vents must be closed off. 

http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20432.pdf :yes:


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## amazer

Thanks Doc and Ed, as always, for enlightening insights. I'll continue with our plan to plug the gables, considering most of the experts hold this to be the best approach.

By the way-- Doc, I notice you hail from Newtown. Some years ago in the late '80s I worked with Bob Fulton III who was a filmaker and aviator who lived in Newtown. We edited several film projects at his family's compound (for lack of a better word) in Newtown, so I spent many a day there.

It's a lovely town, and Bob's place was particularly special. The family had a older house on a number of ridgetop acres, including several outbuildings. They had a grass airstrip from which Bob flew an old Cessna 180 taildragger, and his Dad, then in his late 80's flew an even older Stinson with a radial engine. Bob made a career for himself shooting footage from a wing-mounted 16mm camera. He flew extensively over Alaska, the entire continental US and central America. He had just about finished shooting a one year project for the BBC over South America--from Patagonia to the Amazon-- when he died a few years ago flying back to Conn. from Chicago. There was extensive thunderrstorm activity and I guess lightening hit his plane... very sad in all respects, and ironic given the care and thoughtfulness with which he approached piloting.

His dad, by the way, Robert Fulton II, was known for inventing the "Airphibian", a small airplane whose wings would unclip from the cabin, so you could drive away after you landed somewhere. Check it out at http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/fulton.htm 

It was featured on the cover of LIFE back in the late '40s or early 50s, but they never could get it fully certified by the CAA for a reasonable cost. 

Mr. Fulton also was known for inventing a contraption for scooping soldiers off the ground by an airplane in mid-flight. I think it was called the AirHook, and was used to rescue those soldiers in the aborted rescue mission in Iran when Carter was president. I saw him and several workers making these rigs in one of their buildings-- the military stills buys them apparently. 

These were also featured in the last scene in the movie "Thunderball", when Bond and the woman are floating on a raft in the Medditeranean and about to party when the plane flies over and grabs them. The contraption uses a hook that extends on a rod from the bottom of the plane to grap a bar rigged above the person-- there's some sort of spring involved that prevents one's shoulders from being ripped off the rest of the body, which would sort of negate the whole purpose of the rescue.

Anyways, you wouldn't have known or heard of the Fultons, by any chance?

Sorry if I got a bit off-topic here!


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## Docfletcher

Yep, the road where the airstrip is I believe called Orchard Hill. I have not been there in years. The first time the wife and I drove by there we were flabergasted to see a plane in front of the house. As well as a windmill and those wonderfully colored cone shaped wind catchers. kinda made me think of "Sky King". :laughing:


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## Docfletcher

Ed, as long as you brought up experts.com site I thought you might get a kick out of what Brad Zacharia (one the experts from the site) had to say about my roof when I told him the GAF rep said he did not think the exposed nails would be a problem. This all was said after I sent the photos to the GAF rep via email.

Any idiot that says those nails are of no concern is a giant idiot. Tell him I said so. Call someone at GAF and tell them what he said. They need to fire his ass! He might also be a local roofer that GAF has a connection with to look at claims in his area. Each one of those nails will eventually be a leak. Right now the shingles are soft and will grip around the nail. As time goes on the shingle will get brittle and dry. It then will no longer grip and seal the nail. Also, times of expansion and contraction will open up the space around the nail. That guy is royally stupid and GAF needs to know it- that's how bad his opinion is. You are also not looking for just a "sure start" warranty as that last for only a few years. If you have a 30 year shingle you want a roof that will not leak for 30 years. What are you going to do at year 5 or whenever the Sure Start warranty expires and they then tell you they are not guaranteeing the roof at all because it was installed incorrectly?

Again, that guy's a moron!

Let me know how you called GAF and what they say.

I more than chuckle every time I read it. :laughing: :laughing:


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## amazer

Yup, I Google-mapped Orchard Hill Rd., and you can still see the strip clear as day to the left of the road. The wear marks in the grass where the bulk of landing and taxiing took place are still visible. The planes, alas, are no longer there.

I have to say taking off and landing on that strip got the pulse going up a notch!


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## Ed the Roofer

Doc,

I imagine you agree wholeheartedy with Brads point he was making too.

It sounds brutal, but it seems to be the absolute truth.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

Doc,

I imagine you agree wholeheartedy with Brads point he was making too.

It sounds brutal, but it seems to be the absolute truth.

Ed


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## Docfletcher

Yes, quite so!


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## Ed the Roofer

Ed the Roofer said:


> PAV's actually cost more money to operate and suck the conditioned air out of the interior environment. I will find the research article which backs thias up and post it later on.
> 
> Ed


Here is one of the resources that point out the inefficiency of Powered Attic Ventilators.

Ed

*Buildings*


Home > Buildings > Knowledge Library > Heating And Cooling > Scientific Spin On PAVs



The Scientific Spin on PAVs 
Cooling off hot attics with powered attic ventilators (PAVs) seems like a good idea. After all, doesn't cooler attic air mean less work for the HVAC system, longer shingle life, and reduced energy costs? Unfortunately that's more myth than fact. Studies have shown that under the best of circumstances, PAVs consume more energy than they save. Under the worst of circumstances, they can start a house fire by causing flame rollout from combustion appliances. Let's examine four important facts that help dispel the myth of PAV benefits: 

*Radiant heat is the root of most evil. *
In attic spaces, hot air (convective heat) is a minor factor compared with the radiant heat from the sun on the roof. Radiant heat, if not controlled, will be absorbed and transmitted to interior spaces via the underlying building components (conduction heating). PAVs only target the hot air.
*Some codes should never be broken *. 
The problem of radiant heat being transmitted into interior spaces can and should be addressed by bringing the attic space insulation up to current building codes. That means using the right grade of insulation and installing it properly, leaving no misalignment, gaps, or compression to negate its benefit.
*The path of least resistance can be costly and dangerous. *
When the PAV starts running, it has to suck air from somewhere. Studies have found that conditioned air in the house is typically being sucked into the attic through numerous small and sometimes not so small openings between the attic and interior space. This happens because it's easier to draw from than the intended outdoor air supply. In addition to sucking dollars out of the homeowner's pocket, this situation becomes life threatening if the sucking is strong enough to draw toxic carbon monoxide fumes into the living space or cause flame rollout from combustion appliances.
*And the walls can come tumbling down. 
*As cool interior air gets sucked into the attic, the interior space tries to equalize pressure by sucking warm moist air down chimneys or through cracks in ducts, walls, and floor systems. The end result is that the interior space is actually being warmed — in stark opposition to the PAV's objective. The damage doesn't always stop with wasted energy dollars. That warm moist air can flow in and condense on cold metal air-conditioning equipment and ductwork. The condensation will generally find its way to wood or sheetrock surfaces and can result in damage such as falling ceilings.
For years, Advanced Energy's Bruce Davis has been involved with studies that demonstrate the disadvantages of PAV usage. A study of eight houses with PAVs in the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina revealed that the house was being depressurized to varying extents in every case. 
Rumor has it that Davis has mounted a couple of PAVs on his research lab wall to serve as hunting trophies of a beast that ought to be driven to extinction. If builders and homeowners insist on perpetuating the species, Davis advises that harmful effects from PAVs can be reduced by: 

Ensuring that the ceiling is sealed airtight to prevent air transfer and moisture problems
Using large attic vents to provide adequate air intake
Confirming through performance testing or equipment specifications for combustion equipment that combustion products are not being backdrafted into the space
For More Information
Contact Advanced Energy at (919) 857-9000 or [email protected].


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## BobFlyer

*What Keeps Out Rain-- ShingleVent II?*

Exactly how does the ShingleVentII keep from having wind driven rain from entering the attic?

I just had my roof re-shingled and replaced the old metal ridge vent with Shingle Vent II, but when looking at the sections, It appears that during a high wind event, water could make it thru the vents and into the attic? 

I read the data on the Shingle Vent II and water intrusion data, indicated that there test, results were none.

Is it the upturn (where the weep holes are located)in front of the vent that deflects the blowing rain from entering the vent?

Hurricane area, Panama City Florida, 
Vent was screwed down vs nailing.

Thanks Bob


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## Ed the Roofer

As the wind driven rain gets pushed up the slope of the roof, it encounters the exterior baffle and creates a votex for the wind to swirl in a tumbleweed style over the baffle, creating additional drow of hot attic air OUT of the vent, rather than pusing the air into the vent.

Unbaffled ridge vents will, and I have 4 seperate examples from my earlier years, allow the wind and the elements, such as rain and powdery snow to blow into the attic.

They have a very good 17 minute long video cd on the wind and rain testing done by an independent labratory to simulate real world extremes up to 110 mph and substantiate the differences in various brands.

Ed


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## BobFlyer

*Thanks for response Ed-the Roofer*

Thanks for the quick response, I choose the shingle vent II based on several reviews from Pro-roofers. I had the roofing team use 2" screws (I picked up for them). Hopefully the Hurricane seasons in the future will be mild, I am in Panama City, Fl. I will also test the pine needle collection on the vent, since my yard is heavy with pine trees. My old metal vent, would collect a few pine needles, but very few, so I don't think this will be a problem, I check the roof several times a year, an remove any debris.

Thanks Bob


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