# Torch down vs PVC



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Not a roofer, and getting creeps from my fear of heights. Don't know how you manage maintaining it. I didn't know about the rubber roof sound problem. I'd go with the roll roofing with rock granules. Probably the least dense material so that much quieter.
I think torch down's reputation comes from roofers who don't know just when the adhesive is soft enough and some news of house burning down. Maybe the insurance companies set the rules. My anecdotal story is I used Tamko modified rolls with brush on adhesive, probably plus 20 years ago and the warranty was for 10. It is still water proof except the flashing areas.
I'm covering the leaky areas with eternabond tapes as problems come up. Those tapes should outlast me.


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## Talos4 (Aug 10, 2006)

Not sure where you heard that Modified Bitumen (torch down) roofing has gone out of favor but we install thousands of squares annually, granulated and smooth surfaced. 

The only liability issues are from roofers who do not have a clue as to how to properly install the product. Torching is an art form in our business. All employees using torches must have CERTA training by the NRCA before using them. 

It CAN be very easy to start a fire by improper use of the torches especially when working at the roof edge and at the flashings. The air pressure difference at the roofs edges can draw the torch flame into the roof system, igniting the insulation or the wood blocking causing it to smolder and eventually start something bigger. 

Today, there are better alternatives to torching MOD BIT. Self adhered membranes and cold adhesives formulated for asphalt based membranes have become very popular in the last several years. 

We used cold adhesive to install nearly 1,000 squares of granulated on an office building 10 yrs ago. Still looks like new. 

PVC is an excellent product (we prefer it to TPO). Installing it in your situation where you have to access the roof occasionally would be like installing an ice rink on the roof. PVC is extremely slippery with the slightest amount of moisture/frost on the surface.

Walkways with raised traction ribs are available for PVC but you'd have to cover the entire roof. 

There is one PVC membrane available that has a slight texture to it in an attempt address the slipping. But that's only from one manufacturer who's product is not available in retail. It's fairly new. 

Granulated MOD BIT would be the way to go. 

As far as the noise, That's the nature of the beast especially without an attic space to attenuate the noise. 

Our office is now roofed with PVC we previously had a Built up roof, and I swear I can hear the seagulls crapping on it.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

As Talos4 said there are other ways to install a Mod Bit. I was only in residential so our flat work was limited to porches, dormers an occasional garage. We moved from torching to hot tar to cold application and self adhering. I was a fan of the cold app because its pretty simple and as long as there is some pitch and its done at a reasonable temperature it lasts along times. My back porch is cold application SBS and its going fine at almost 20 years.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Talos4 said:


> Our office is now roofed with PVC we previously had a Built up roof, and I swear I can hear the seagulls crapping on it.


:vs_laugh:


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

I like the idea of the cold applications. That option hasn’t come up in browsing any roofers’ web sites or discussions. Is that only used in commercial applications? 

I don’t want to hear any sea gull (here, crow) poops hitting my roof any more! The pine cones sound like WWIII has begun. Have you ever tried extra sound insulation? So far, roofers I’ve talked to are 1) perplexed that we have a noise issue, and 2) think our 4” gives as much sound insulation as we can get.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Have you considered removing the source of the tree limb /pine cone problem?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

jsand said:


> I like the idea of the cold applications. That option hasn’t come up in browsing any roofers’ web sites or discussions. Is that only used in commercial applications?


In our case we used it only on residential.
Basically we would install a #43 organic felt base sheet using ring top nails then use a throw away style driveway applicator brush to spread the adhesive. If cosmetics is important a bucket of granules to match your color is nice because you want to have some of the adhesive squeeze out the edge. On vertical seams where two pieces overlap (6" was our lap) we used thicker trowel grade mastic to adhere the product. Once upon a time we could buy it in white, black, weathered wood and in the early days a "cedar" (rich tan color). Not sure what is available these days.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

You want to be sure the cold application adhesive and any trowel grade adhesive are compatible with the product. So...you want to get set up at a roofing supply warehouse rather than a "big box' store.


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

I am definitely not doing this job myself.  Am looking to hire an experienced roofer.

If I don't find a roofer who does the cold installation, do you think I should ask one to do it, or is the torch method just as good (i.e., durable) as long as they're safe and experienced at the installation?

I have been surprised by how many companies state on their website that they do torch down, only to find they have stopped when I call. Seems the move away from it has been rapid here.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Roofing is one of the hardest jobs, and dangerous. In NJ and most of the grunt work is done by the day laborers with short training. It is obvious why companies would want to use the easiest way, and the whole net of related people would tag along since longer labor costs are charged to the owners. But that is how economy should work since everybody makes a living.:smile:


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## Talos4 (Aug 10, 2006)

Not sure what part of the country you're in but, Look for and "old line" roofing company. In other words those that have been in business longer than a few years. Look for one that does commercial work and maybe also some residential.

I work for a large "Old Line" commercial roofer and we do "some" residential work. Especially low slope applications. It's filler work for us especially this time of year. All of our roofers are our employees and experienced in hot work. 

Those companies are out there. It's going to take some leg work on your part to find the right one. Don't shop on price alone. In this business, you definitely get what you pay for. 

Two chucks and a truck with a tailgate warranty who says they can do the job for the right price, can't. 

As far as the noise issue, more insulation is not going to eliminate the noise. 

Remember, the insulation is a high density most likely Polyisocyanurate and is very rigid. Being rigid it will act like a wood floor. Similar to someone with high heels walking on it.

The problem is related to the membrane. Rubber, TPO, PVC are single ply's. Usually 45 or 60 mils. These are adhered directly to the insulation. There's very little density to the membrane.

A built up roof (4 plies of felts, asphalt and gravel ~ 240-280 mils) or Mod Bit (~160 mil cap sheet, 80 mil base sheet) is a denser membrane and absorbs more noise. 

Again, think of the wood floor, Now put carpet on the floor.


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice, it is appreciated! I feel better about the torch down overall. Still investigating roofers and asking about cold application.

Wish I could remove the source of limbs, needles and pine cones, but that would mean 5-6 trees would have to go or be severely trimmed. Other than the falling debris and cost to maintain them, we love our trees! They're worth it.:smile:


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## Sea_chick (Jul 14, 2018)

We are also in Seattle and struggling with the same decision. We are leaning towards torchdown but have found only one roofer so far that does it. Curious what you decided and how it went, assuming the work’s been done.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Yes to torching the glue ONLY IF the installer has a long experience. If you can't find them, means torch down option is out.


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

Finally finished our roofing project. We selected a double layer of torch down, black granulated so it's a little quieter inside and not slippery. It doesn't provide as much sound dampening as we hoped, but is lovely (for an almost flat roof) and will be easy to repair as needed. We had a GREAT company - message me if interested.


The only issue we're having so far is the skylights fog around the edges, so I think they weren't sealed well.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Thanks, I had a roof done about 5 years ago regular A frame roof with a almost flat roof. The Company (roofing) very recommended and years experience came out and said he would do the regular roof with 30 year GAF Architectural shingles and the almost flat roof with torch down integrated with the GAfs. Well it turned out perfect and the torch down crew was different than the GAF crew. It appeared to be a trade all on it's own. Very happy with the torch down.


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi all,


It's been a while, but I thought I'd update this thread with our decision and the awesome outcome. We found an excellent roofer who tore out our EPDM and replaced it with a double layer of granulated torch down. Otherwise, all else is the same (the 4" foam insulation was left in, nothing else was added). Not only did it cut the rain noise that was driving us crazy by about half (hurray!!!!), but the granulation is perfect for keeping the roof safe to walk on when wet. We couldn't be happier. It did take a lot of searching for a roofer who was careful and well reviewed to do the torch down. Sadly, a lot of companies here have moved away from it.


Thanks for all the discussion!


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Happy customer.:smile::smile:
Was wondering if you'd sort of list the steps you took. I worked in the construction for while but how to find a good craftsman is still a mystery. The forum is full of bad news and many questions about how and where for the good workers.
Without mentioning names and keeping your privacy, some examples? Neighbor, angieslist (have own doubts about this), luck?:smile:


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi carpdad,


It is a process to choose a roofer, especially for anything other than shingles. We used a combination of Angie's List and Yelp and lots of phone calls to find a well rated roofer who had been in business at least 5 years and would do torch down. Then I searched BBB for complaints and law suits and the Washington State business license site which gives their insurance and bonded status and any associated former businesses. We were especially careful because torch down can be so dangerous. One thing I was very careful about was looking at whether the contractor had changed company names in the recent past since that's one ploy to get out of warranty claims. It was amazing how many roofers had lawsuits filed on an old company name and had changed in the last few years. We didn't hire them though I'm sure there are honest explanations for that too.



The company we ended up with have been roofing for >10 years, had amazing reviews, and - most importantly - were very knowledgeable, thoughtful, and up front when they came to give a quote. Not the cheapest, but not the most expensive.


good luck!


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## Talos4 (Aug 10, 2006)

I've been off the forum for quite a while dealing with alot of work over the last several months. 

I'm very happy that your project turned out well. 

Your experience tells the tale that I preach all the time, do your homework, Your home is after all the largest investment that most people make. 

The fact that you checked out the name change of contractors is something very few people do. Kudos to you. 

I can tell you that we followed two contractors that we regularly competed against change their names over the course of two years so many times that we had trouble keeping track of it ourselves. 

Both had very shady business practices and one of the owners is still in federal prison on wire fraud, insurance scam and tax evasion charges. The other .... MIA.


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## cek (Mar 23, 2019)

jsand,

This thread is very interesting, especially the details from your decision process to results immediately after installation and then several months later. I'm in the decision phase myself, trying to figure out whether to go with torch-down or PVC for for replacing my low-slope roof in the Seattle area. (Current roof is torch down--don't know how old, because it predates my ownership of the house, but at least 12 years.) I have a few bids, only one for torch-down, which does seem rarer these days. 

Anyway, I was hoping to PM you to ask what company you ended up with, but I can't figure out how--maybe because I'm a new member on this forum (specifically so I could ask this question). Would you PM me, please?

Thank you!

-cek


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## jsand (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi cek,
Your profile is not set up to receive pms. Touck my avatar picture and you should find the message button to pm me.


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## cek (Mar 23, 2019)

jsand,

Thank you for responding. I'm very eager to hear from you. My account won't let me send PMs either, since I'm new. (I asked the admins for an exception, but alas, it's not to be.)

If you could email me at cklumpar AT hotmail, perhaps we could correspond off-piste, as it were?

Thank you!


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## jljl222 (Dec 6, 2018)

Hi jsand, thank you for this great discussion. I'm also in the Seattle area, without much luck finding a good company that still does torch downs. I'm hoping to get the name of the company that you used.

I can't send you a PM though since I'm a relatively new member on this forum. Would you mind emailing me the company contact info? jljl128g at gmail is where I'm at. Many thanks in advance!


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## Abby Schmaby (Feb 16, 2021)

Hi jsand. I know it’s been a few years since you posted this. I found this convo through a Google search. We are looking to replace a torch down roof possibly with another torch down and we are in the Seattle area. Can you tell me which roofer you used? Thanks!


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## dj3 (Apr 27, 2020)

Abby Schmaby said:


> Hi jsand. I know it’s been a few years since you posted this. I found this convo through a Google search. We are looking to replace a torch down roof possibly with another torch down and we are in the Seattle area. Can you tell me which roofer you used? Thanks!


You can go to a local roofing supply store early in the morning, where roofers come to buy their supplies, talk to the guys and see if they would come for an estimate.
If you see them at the warehouse, they are active !


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## jcm42 (Sep 10, 2021)

Hi. Just found this thread. I am also in Seattle area looking for a torch down roofer. If anyone has a suggestion or recommendation to share I would be grateful to hear it. Or even if one has had a positive experience with TPO OR PVC i would be interested in hearing about that also.
Thanks


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## CYO (Aug 26, 2020)

Hi, I am happy to come across this thread while researching about PVC/ TPO/ Torchdown roof. I am in the process of obtaining estimates (3 so far) and came across a contractor, who I think is the most experienced of all, and this contractor recommended torch down roof (which I wasn't thinking of using probably because PVC/TPO are more heavily advertised and saw on newer homes). We just got a house with flat roof, built in 1959 and the roof is old (20years+) with ponding water. I am looking into having tapered Polyiso installed so drainage issue can be addressed. 
I'd like to check on everyone's experience with their contractors (or any bad contractor to avoid), what kind of roof you ended up using, etc. This thread is still pretty new (2 years) so hopefully everyone's "new" roof is still well.

Thank you.
-Stephen


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