# Is My Contractor Ripping Me Off???



## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Can't tell you because we can't see your basement. People come on this site all the time with such statements....and sometimes leave out pertinant information. We don't know the details, for example, most of the cost could address electrical. Example: IC rated can lights, additional panel, permit, inspection time, etc, etc...

Your best bet is to just get some other estimates from other contractors.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

Sounds high, but as stated above, we cannot see or evaluate what the bid comprises.....get 3 bids, and then compare or post them and we will tell you what we think, and don't leave out details.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

*Me Three*

Yup....no way to tell from here
Could be cheap for the project for all we know

Best way to find out is get a few more bids/estimates

"How the heck...." could it cost more than you think it should?
Most people have no idea how much it costs to run a business
What did you think it would be?
I'm not trying to be a wise guy...just trying to find out what you thought it would be

For all I know this was bid high, and bid high for some other reason


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## bswain06 (Oct 23, 2007)

My basement ceiling looks like this..but not as large


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Yes bswain, it's all about the details. I had a home owner try to fully describe a bath remodel situation to me. She was totally convinced she had given me all the details via email so was not happy that I wanted to see the bathroom in person before I gave her an official estimate. Part of the situation was the demo work was already performed to save money (I have no problem helping any home owner save some money....makes it easier for me to help get my potential jobs). She was interested in adding 2 sconce lights and have a shower tiled. The way it was described to me was the electrical was there already and the shower was ready to rebuild. HOWEVER, when I got there, the electrical that "was there already" was a receptacle in the vaulted 12' ceiling and the demo'd shower had a ton of mold in the walls. My electrician quoted me $800 just to get wiring from the ceiling to the spot she wanted the sconces. And I haven't even mentioned the mold remediation. 
Point is exactly what has been replied......all the details need to be considered before an accurate assessment can be given. Please get a few more estimates and report back. Can't hurt as the estimates should be free anyway.
Good luck!


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

For one thing, it's going to take more than one roll on R-13 to insulate similar joists, 
for another thing, are you sure that the contractor is using R-13?...and not R-30 (more cost) ?
Copper wiring (romex) is sky high right now, in terms of pricing. 
Again, I think the bulk of the budget is probably going to the electrical work. 

Another factor is if you are using a legitimate licensed contractor with insurance and workman's comp. 
Such contractors have more over head costs than the fly-by-night contactors. 
(FWIW: Their work is more likely to be done properly & by code, under warranty, 
and they will come back to take care of an issue with their work, if one arises)


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## bswain06 (Oct 23, 2007)

he's a private, on-the-side guy...so there isn't any overhead. He does good work, but I think $2600 is rediculous for 280 sq ft.


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## MacRoadie (Apr 25, 2008)

$9.29 per Sf to hang, tape and texture (paint?) a ceiling, including insulation and 6 ceiling cans? You can get to that Sf number pretty quickly, especially with the electrical work. 6 IC rated can lights alone will run you $30.00 + tax each at your local home center so that's $200.00 right there.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

bswain06 said:


> ...but I think $2600 is rediculous for 280 sq ft.


Why are you so sure that your contractor is charging a lot more than such a job is worth? 
What are you basing that on?
a) Electrical cost cannot be determined simply based on sf.
b) Do you have electrical experience to base your pricing analyzation on?
c) As suggested previously, why not just get some more quotes for the same work.

Please let us know the other quotes that you end up getting.
Good Luck!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

My min. cost on the cans, from panel, 6 cans, lamps, trim, 1 switch, would be $800.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

jbfan said:


> My min. cost on the cans, from panel, 6 cans, lamps, trim, 1 switch, would be $800.


 
$800?? That's more than $600 for labor.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

I don't want to throw salt into an already open wound, just asking here...

Have you already signed on the line with the current contractor? 

*YES* - then at some point you determined the price was reasonable for the services received.
Then this person is your contractor, suck it up and pay the man.
or
*NO* - take the opportunity to seek services elsewhere. 
It's inexcusable for you to question his fees, anyone can charge what they want. 
The kicker is, if you agree to pay. You have every right to say YES or NO to his quote.
This guy shot you a cost and you don't like it, go hunt yourself down another contractor.
Just because he does this stuff on the side doesn't = super low prices for quality work.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

beer_geek said:


> $800?? That's more than $600 for labor.


Not really. Thats also overhead, markup, profit.
But I guess you can look at it any way you like.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

jbfan said:


> Not really. Thats also overhead, markup, profit.
> But I guess you can look at it any way you like.


 
The materials are less than $200 at any big box. The rest is labor. How your accountant divides it up is irrelevant.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> The materials are less than $200 at any big box. The rest is labor. How your accountant divides it up is irrelevant.


Unless you are a licensed contractor, this number would seem very high....but try this: What if one of the cans shorted out of caused a fire...would it be nice if the electrician were insured and bonded? That isn't cheap, and comes out of the $600.......how about the years working for low wages to get to make decent money and have the license? And last of all...how about the peace of mind knowing it is done correctly? You live in this house.....with your family. These reasons are why I hire only reputable subs with insurance for our work, and they have to make a living. Overhead is much higher then anyone outside the trades would ever guess.


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## bswain06 (Oct 23, 2007)

i agree...but he's done great work before. I know a licensed guy would be best...but i'll take my chances for now. Thanks for the help...I do think im going to look somewhere else


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## NateHanson (Apr 15, 2007)

beer_geek said:


> The materials are less than $200 at any big box. The rest is labor. How your accountant divides it up is irrelevant.


"Overhead" is NOT simply CPA hand-waving. Do you consider the cost of tools, gas to get to buy supplies and drive to the job, payments on a work vehicle, cost of leasing workspace, paying for phone lines, advertising, licenses, insurance, etc etc? Is all of that "labor" in your mind, and the tradesman is simply lining his pockets with all these fancy ways of saying "profit"? :no:

A plumber charges $75 to come to your house and fix your faucet. It takes him 30 minutes of work when he gets there, and he uses a $5 part. So he makes $140 per hour, right??? :laughing: I think we'd see a lot more plumbers and a lot less doctors if that were the case.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

I consider the cost of all of those things. However, those costs are spread out over every job. Tools, gas, wear and tear are all business expenses spread out over every job. 6 cans in an unfinished basement is what? a 3 hour job for a "pro"? That includes getting the materials. How much of a month's business expenses are covered by that 3 hours work? Sorry, he's charging a lot.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

My principal business is steel erection, and we make decent money at it...there are times that if you used a set rule of the "job" and divided time into the price, it may look like we are pirates, but that is dead wrong. I have a lot of money invested in my equipment...you could say that I shouldn't get $200 an hour.....but we don't actually make that....we are working by the job, if things go well, we can turn that easily, but not every day. See my point?

Anyway, the advice from the beginning of this thread from the contractors was all the same: Get other bids. It would be impossible for me to know if the price is high in say, New York City, since I am in Oklahoma.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

joasis said:


> My principal business is steel erection, and we make decent money at it...there are times that if you used a set rule of the "job" and divided time into the price, it may look like we are pirates, but that is dead wrong. I have a lot of money invested in my equipment...you could say that I shouldn't get $200 an hour.....but we don't actually make that....we are working by the job, if things go well, we can turn that easily, but not every day. See my point?
> 
> Anyway, the advice from the beginning of this thread from the contractors was all the same: Get other bids. It would be impossible for me to know if the price is high in say, New York City, since I am in Oklahoma.


 
I'm not just dividing time into price. If you guys stop latching onto that red herring, maybe others will see through the smokescreen. One contractor said that his *minimum* for 6 cans is $800. I said that's high for that job. See MY point?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Beer geek -

As a contractor, would you do the job for no profit and eat all the overhead and consumables?

Then there is the question of liability and the unknowns since you have not seen the job.

Is it easy to get everything down into the basement, especially around the corners and down the stairs?

Don't forget about wire and breakers from a box with an unknown location and an open space for another breaker.
How far away is the job?

If you do the job you could possibly write something off as a donation if you had some profit from another job that you could have done.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Give me a break. He said his MINIMUM was $800. That's sight unseen. No matter how you look at it, it's less than $200 for materials. That's FACT. That's cans, trim, bulbs, wire, breaker, switch, wire nuts, box, clamps to hold the wire in panel. $600 for "overhead" ain't charity.

Continue to circle the wagons boys.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> I'm not just dividing time into price. If you guys stop latching onto that red herring, maybe others will see through the smokescreen. One contractor said that his *minimum* for 6 cans is $800. I said that's high for that job. See MY point?


If I were GC'ing a remodel, I would have more then one bid. If this were a new home I am building, the bid would be extremely high....since I am a general contractor, I also know the variables and if I had comparable bids in the same range for this job at $800, then that is it....that is the price. I am not trying to be argumentative on this point, but to end, a tradesman can charge whatever he chooses to, the customer decides whether to hire them or look elsewhere.....if the tradesman is too high, then sooner or later he would have to lower his rates. 

I had a plumber call me, wanting to have a chance to bid on a new home we are starting in a few weeks....and he wants $1250 per opening. He wasn't interested in looking over a set of blueprints....just hit me with the number. Is it too high? Yes.....my regular plumber bid the house for $7200, about half of what the other guy hit me with....both are licensed and insured, but obviously, I am going with my regular plumber. The point? Multiple bids, and market determines price.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> Continue to circle the wagons boys.


This is not about "circling the wagons" it is about what we do for a living. This is America, you can choose to hire or reject anyone for price or whatever, as long as you are within the law on codes, no one will really care. Since this is simply a forum, we cannot see the job, and an electrician puts out a price you think is high...those of us that do this for a living, everyday, see things from a different perspective. 

Your comment would appear that you believe we "protect" our "profits".....that is hardly the case.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

joasis said:


> Your comment would appear that you believe we "protect" our "profits".....that is hardly the case.


Prior to this post, I have not used the word "profit". I haven't mentioned it. I don't begrudge it. It is the contractors on this thread who have become defensive over my post. The contractors brought up "profit". The contractors brought up "hourly". The contractors brought up carrying a 100' coil of wire around a corner might not be "easy". 

I said $200 for materials and $600 for "labor" aka "the cost of doing business" is high. That's it. That's all I said.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Let's put it in terms you can appreciate. What do you do for a living, beer-geek?


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

beer_geek said:


> The materials are less than $200 at any big box. The rest is labor. How your accountant divides it up is irrelevant.



I think the miscommunication here is some guys are saying that it's not $600 that goes directly into their pockets after getting paid in this scenario. beer_geek, I wouldn't argue that after materials, it's about $600 left. However, of that $600, what a contractor actually gets to keep *can* be much less. 
Without getting into specifics, I generally charge around $10,000 labor for a complete kitchen remodel. On my last one, all of my expenses caught up with me. I had to buy screws ($150 in bulk), a new crown stapler ($120), insurance payment ($800), bought a fancy yard sign for advertising ($56)....That all came out of what would considered "profit". However, what I think guys are saying is it's not profit until all expenses are paid. Yes, on my next job I might not have any unseen costs so the $10,000 may go to me in full (doubtful). I don't think anyone is trying to say you're wrong with $200 in materials = $600 left over. I think what people are saying is you can't justify calling all $600 profit. 
Still, the customer can accept or deny a quote of that magnitude. The contractor has to be able to sleep at night with what they charge. No one feels sorry for me when it's 10° outside and I'm in an unheated garage cutting tile or when it's 120° in an attic and I'm up there moving electrical around. I don't feel bad collecting money from a customer that I earned. Each situation is unique. 
As it has been said many times, GET MORE ESTIMATES. If you had 3-5 contractors come in with a very similar amount, chances are there's something you don't understand to why it will be that much. I can't feel so sorry for a home owner that is adamant about using a guy "on-the-side" (aka no permits) to do electrical and then complain about price. :no:


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

angus242 said:


> I think what people are saying is you can't justify calling all $600 profit.


 
Where did I do that??????? Find the post. QUOTE ME!


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> Let's put it in terms you can appreciate. What do you do for a living, beer-geek?


 
I'm a self employed computer consultant AKA "a contractor". So, go ahead. Use terms that I can appreciate.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Cool. So if you are self employed, then you understand self insurance, licensing, etc. You use a tool to provide a product. If I ask you to build my company a website, which I could do myself if I had the time, then chances are, that I will consider your price too high. If so, I will make time and do it myself. If not, I will contract you to do so. How do you counter customr objections to a perceived high price in your business?


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

beer_geek said:


> Where did I do that??????? Find the post. QUOTE ME!


You are correct, you didn't say that. What I meant to write was, _I think what people are saying is you can't justify calling all $600 *LABOR*. _Profit is obviously what's left after expenses.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> Cool. So if you are self employed, then you understand self insurance, licensing, etc. You use a tool to provide a product. If I ask you to build my company a website, which I could do myself if I had the time, then chances are, that I will consider your price too high. If so, I will make time and do it myself. If not, I will contract you to do so. How do you counter customr objections to a perceived high price in your business?


 
Yup. I understand all of those things. Not once have I called the cost of doing business "profit". However, you guys continuously accuse me of doing just that. Why is that?

To answer your question, I most certainly do NOT talk about "overhead", "insurance" or even "the years of working for low wages to get to make decent money" like some people have used in this thread.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

angus242 said:


> You are correct, you didn't say that. What I meant to write was, _I think what people are saying is you can't justify calling all $600 *LABOR*. _Profit is obviously what's left after expenses.


Why not? "Parts and Labor" is a pretty common way of pricing a job. So is "time and materials". I picked "parts and labor" as the more accurate terminology in this case.


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

You can always try to "do it yourself" since after all, this is a DIY Chatroom. As long as you have or can reasonably get the skills you can save some money. I would consider seeing what is needed then price and try to work it out myself. Maybe you can get the wiring rough-in or do the initial drywall with friends having pasting done by a pro. 

Just a thought...


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

So what DO you say to allay concerns over your pricing? Surely it comes up.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

beer_geek said:


> I said $200 for materials and $600 for "labor" aka "the cost of doing business" is high. That's it. That's all I said.


I don't know what an electrician would charge for this install because I'd do it myself. Can't say if this is high or low. I also own a small business and it does 90% of sales throughout the county, not locally and I set our prices based on that market. 



Tscarborough said:


> How do you counter customer objections to a perceived high price in your business?


How do you answer this?


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> So what DO you say to allay concerns over your pricing? Surely it comes up.


 
Of course it comes up. However, it has zero relevance to this thread.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

But it does have relevance to this thread. A price was offered and your perception is that it is too high. This is a common issue that persons of most fields have to handle daily, and the best way to make a person out of your particular field understand the *objection* is to relate it to something they are familiar with. The technique is called "empathy", and I am relating the issue to a stuation that you personally deal with.

Discussing the exact reasons for the price are irrelevant, since the price is the price, and your options are to take it or leave it. In other words, there is no value in discussing why the price is too high, the proper way to deal with the issue is to address the objection, i.e. why you percieve the price to be too high (I am using the royal "You", not you, beer geek).


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Yet it completely changes the subject. Hence, it is a red herring. You, and I do mean you, Tscarborough, are trying to take the focus off of the actual topic, my objection to jbfan's high price and are trying to get me to talk about something else. That's called *deflection*.

The way I handle it is not germaine.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

The method you use to overcome the objection in your business does not matter, what matters is that now you understand what the real issue is and should be able to relate to the other side's position.


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## MacRoadie (Apr 25, 2008)

beer_geek said:


> Yet it completely changes the subject. Hence, it is a red herring. You, and I do mean you, Tscarborough, are trying to take the focus off of the actual topic, my objection to jbfan's high price and are trying to get me to talk about something else. That's called *deflection*.
> 
> The way I handle it is not germaine.


Exactly what metric are you employing to make your determination that jbfan was given a "high price"? 

Are you basing this on your own hourly billing rate (as there is apparently little disagreement relative to material costs)? Have you taken your experience in other similar, jobs and applied them to this project (time to tasks, consumables, indirects, general conditions, etc)?


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## AndyH (Mar 10, 2008)

jbfan said:


> My min. cost on the cans, from panel, 6 cans, lamps, trim, 1 switch, would be $800.


800 for that is not that bad, i have a neighbor who paid 1200 for 8 cans in their kitchen.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

MacRoadie said:


> Exactly what metric are you employing to make your determination that jbfan was given a "high price"?
> 
> Are you basing this on your own hourly billing rate (as there is apparently little disagreement relative to material costs)? Have you taken your experience in other similar, jobs and applied them to this project (time to tasks, consumables, indirects, general conditions, etc)?


 
Now, we're talking. I'm basing it on my personal experience of my licensed, insured, bonded, electrician doing my entire permitted/inspected basement for $1500. That's 15 cans, 22 receptacles, 11 switches, 2 ceiling fans, 1 dishwasher across 4 circuits.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

AndyH said:


> 800 for that is not that bad, i have a neighbor who paid 1200 for 8 cans in their kitchen.


 
Were the put into an existing ceiling where the wires needed to be snaked through the walls or was it part of a complete remodel where the demolition was done down to the studs?


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## AndyH (Mar 10, 2008)

beer_geek said:


> Were the put into an existing ceiling where the wires needed to be snaked through the walls or was it part of a complete remodel where the demolition was done down to the studs?


it was all open. they got ripped off. I was E-apprentice for 2 yrs, so i have some knowledge of pricing, labor etc. its amazing what people charge. i did 6 cans in my addition and total parts came to bout 200$.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

2 things, Beer Geek. One, location means everything. The price in Georgia is not going to be the same as it is in Newark (or even Newark to upstate).

Second, a portion of the price of any construction job is going to be mobilization, which will be the same no matter what size the job is (more or less).


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> 2 things, Beer Geek. One, location means everything. The price in Georgia is not going to be the same as it is in Newark (or even Newark to upstate).
> 
> Second, a portion of the price of any construction job is going to be mobilization, which will be the same no matter what size the job is (more or less).


The thing you fail to notice is jbfan, the one who posted the $800/6 can price is also from Georgia. Newnan isn't far from Marietta.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

I didn't notice, but was just stating it as a principle.

So your objection over the price is in the open and is one that can not be overcome. If we were trying to sign a contract, at this point I would simply thank you for your time, shake your hand, and move on.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Why did it take you from post 12 to state your reasoning behind his price is too high? Either jbfan is as his motto states " Yes I am a Pirate, 200 years too late." or he knows his market area, his costs and what it will take him to complete the job

BTW just being not far from here, in 25 miles from my home you're in a different *country.*


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> I didn't notice, but was just stating it as a principle.
> 
> So your objection over the price is in the open and is one that can not be overcome. If we were trying to sign a contract, at this point I would simply thank you for your time, shake your hand, and move on.


 
Which is perfectly acceptable. All I did was read a post and balk at a local guy's price. It wasn't that big of a deal but some of the guys here acted as if I was trying to deny them the ability to feed their children.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

It is easy to get defensive when you are discussing your profession, and they were working with incomplete knowledge. Had you said in your first post that you have had comparable work done, the response would probably have been different.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

47_47 said:


> Why did it take you from post 12 to state your reasoning behind his price is too high? Either jbfan is as his motto states " Yes I am a Pirate, 200 years too late." or he knows his market area, his costs and what it will take him to complete the job


Because that's how the conversation went. I spent more than half of my time correcting people. It didn't get to my reasoning until that point in the conversation. 



> BTW just being not far from here, in 25 miles from my home you're in a different *country.*


You've completely missed the point. I'm willing to bet jbfan has either done or had the opportunity to do jobs in my town. That's what is meant by "not far from here".


Perhaps this thread has educated some people. Maybe, just maybe, some will learn that services have costs associated with them. They are more than just materials. The money above and beyond materials is the cost of doing business and not just "profit".


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> It is easy to get defensive when you are discussing your profession, and they were working with incomplete knowledge. Had you said in your first post that you have had comparable work done, the response would probably have been different.


 
True, but then it would have been a "contractortalk" thread on how my guy "lowballed" it.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Very possible. Me and Mr. Electricity do not get along, so I have no idea what it would cost. $800 for 6 lights seems mighty high and $1500 for wiring a basment seems mightly low, though.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

We are on the same page, my point was that different sections in the same area do not necessarily have the same rate. In my area, *if *I can get a contractor out, I expect to pay an additional 10-15% more than people in the city/suburbs for the same work. 



beer_geek said:


> Perhaps this thread has educated some people. Maybe, just maybe, some will learn that services have costs associated with them. They are more than just materials. The money above and beyond materials is the cost of doing business and not just "profit".


You've made valid points, but this topic will always keep coming up and most consumers will get only one estimate, then think they are getting ripped off and never understand the intangibles of their quote.

They will only see the products left in their home, remember how long it took to complete the job and think the contractor got 200.00 per hour profit.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

bswain06 said:


> he's a private, on-the-side guy...so there isn't any overhead....


There's always overhead
How did you talk to him?
Phone?
Overhead
Did he look at the job?
He's an Estimator
Overhead
Did he price the job?
He's a Salesman
Overhead
Is he going to walk over there?
...or drive (gas overhead) a truck (vehicle overhead)
Is he using tools?
Overhead
...etc....
There is always overhead



bswain06 said:


> ...but I think $2600 is rediculous for 280 sq ft.


What do you think would be a good price?


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## bswain06 (Oct 23, 2007)

maybe 2000...but 2600 is asking A LOT! There are absolutely ZERO snags or problems. Its all layed out, no bulkheads needed, and the power box is in the same room so the can lighting wires are minimal


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

bswain06 said:


> maybe 2000...


How did you arrive at that figure?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

slickshift said:


> How did you arrive at that figure?


Yes, that question still remains un-answered...?

(In other words, unless there are other professional & accurate _site-visit-quotes_ to mention, or a property owner has a documented, recent, licensed background in a specific related trade field...there isn't much to "back" such a "way-over-pricing" assumption on....)...
(BTW: anyone stating that they did "such-and-such",..worked as an apprentice, were a laborer, was an assistant, or "helped out", in a particular trade....does not constitute genuine-authoritative-experience on pricing and actual project-cost)


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

another know it all, I am better than any contractor, do my job for free homeowner.
If you are so good as to come up with price,decide that the job is sooooooo easy, then you should have had this job finished by now and never spent anymore than a dollar three eighty


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## BuiltByMAC (Jan 31, 2008)

Why is it that I wander into DIYChatroom.com and the first post I see is "Is my contractor ripping me off?"

What part of *DIY* don't you understand?

Dude, if you've got that much problem with his price, 

D 

I 

Y...

Wow. He works on the side, doesn't worry about that pesky insurance or licensing, you want him to work cheaper than his low-ball price already is, and beer geek even whipped out the dictionary to school us profit mongers...'scuse me, labor mongers. Hmmm, this was fun.

Mac


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Perhaps, Mac, famous for having a little deck, should have a 5th grader explain my posts to him.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

Ok...this has gone on long enough....thread closed.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

:yes: THANK YOU!!


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