# gas furnace flame rollout



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

If I'm going to have it, when it will it show up?
Does it come and go?
Can I test for it about to happen?

The inducer motor works.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It happens a lot if the heat exchanger is very dirty, sooted up and/or the draft thru it is poor. Or if it is cracked. If cracked it heats up, crack opens, fan comes on and blows air thru crack and hits flame and causes it to rollout. Overfiring, partially plugged venting, blocked chimney and other conditions can cause it. You won't see it coming. If the heat exchanger is very rusty, brown or black soot inside that is a red flag.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Wanna see flame roll out? Drink a case of Labatts and stand in front of the furnace with the panel off.

i guarantee if you wait long enough the flames will roll out seeking the new source of methane gas.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Besides the stuff I buy from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labatt_Brewing_Company
I had some more questions. :laughing:

For a Bryant gas furnace, 397HAW060140, 4683C18923

In the factory manual there doesn't seem to be a flame rollout switch; can you post links to two or three typical types so I can figure out how they work and splice it in to the logic board? 
Ideally I guess it would lock out the gas valve and sound an alarm?
Are these things prone to false alarms? Does the flame typically roll out for very short intervals?

For cleaning the HX, after disassembling almost the whole furnace, I'm supposed to use "4' of 1/4" dia. high-grade steel spring cable commonly known as drain cleanout or Roto-Rooter cable and a 1/4" dia. wire brush commonly known as 25 cal. rifle cleaning brush", and an elec. drill.
Should I use any solvents for this cleaning? I'll get this tool at an HVAC supply house? 

I think this furnace was made in '82 so by my own stats it is on borrowed time.
What can I expect in its twilight years in the way of non-electrical failures?
If there was one instrument I should buy and one test I should run, what would it be?

Thanks, folks. I had the whole summer to work on this thing. . .and I didn't.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Is that a 90% Yoyzie?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Is that a 90% Yoyzie?


83%, upflow.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm not sure why you want to do this procedure? VERY VERY few induced draft furnaces will ever need to have a heat ex cleaned. Furnaces that are neglected and starved for air get their heat exchanger dirty. As long as the burners were clean burning you should have no problem.The pressure switch is designed/calibrated by the design engineers to provide the necessary minimum air/draft for proper combustion etc. I hope you are not worrying about nothing. Post a pic of the front of it without the doors on and we can tell you if it is a "problem" child. When we talk about flame rollout etc it is because we suspect the poster has other problems than a faulty pressure switch, which in itself is rare.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> I'm not sure why you want to do this procedure? VERY VERY few induced draft furnaces will ever need to have a heat ex cleaned. Furnaces that are neglected and starved for air get their heat exchanger dirty. As long as the burners were clean burning you should have no problem.The pressure switch is designed/calibrated by the design engineers to provide the necessary minimum air/draft for proper combustion etc. I hope you are not worrying about nothing. Post a pic of the front of it without the doors on and we can tell you if it is a "problem" child. When we talk about flame rollout etc it is because we suspect the poster has other problems than a faulty pressure switch, which in itself is rare.


A pic without the doors and with the HX passageways visible?

That's good news about induced draft furnaces.

The factory manual talks about inspecting the HX for rust and soot and cleaning if necessary. I doubt it's ever been done.

The flames look blue, not yellow.

What made me nervous was seeing a video of flame rollout where the guy had to replace all the wires that had melted insulation.

BTW, I've heard of flame rollout switches that were either bimetallic or a fusible link. How fast do they respond?

I'm coming to appreciate how much effort goes into deciding if there is a flame and if it is "OK." Microprocessors and whatnot, patents on new ways to detect good and bad flames, passing 1 µA through the flame, etc.

Given the age and that, since 1992, the overtemp switch, inducer motor and gas valve were replaced, can you say what is likely to fail next?

Thanks for helping me with this.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We need to see the burners and inducer so we can see which series and model you have. There are dozens of Carrier/Payne/Bryant variations over the years. Some of us can tell by looking at it if it is one that has ongoing problems by our experience. A flame rollout has to be ABSOLUTELY strategically placed or it won't work or will cause nuisance tripouts. Not a retrofit job. When we know which unit you have then we can probably tell you if the heat ex is prone to cracks and where.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> We need to see the burners and inducer so we can see which series and model you have. There are dozens of Carrier/Payne/Bryant variations over the years. Some of us can tell by looking at it if it is one that has ongoing problems by our experience. A flame rollout has to be ABSOLUTELY strategically placed or it won't work or will cause nuisance tripouts. Not a retrofit job. When we know which unit you have then we can probably tell you if the heat ex is prone to cracks and where.


I'm on it.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

The added electronics in 1090 & 1093 is used instead of a sail switch.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

You got one of THEM! YYYYEEEEooowwww! Ground out city!

Do your self a favor and get a new one. BBRRRR... don't know how many times I changed one part and the the whole 24v side went. Not one component survived.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> You got one of THEM! YYYYEEEEooowwww! Ground out city!
> 
> Do your self a favor and get a new one. BBRRRR... don't know how many times I changed one part and the the whole 24v side went. Not one component survived.


The add-on electronics? 
It's homebrew, but it might be fried because the wife turned on the AC without asking me so the circuitry probably got way over 120vac applied to it, backfed through the blower motor.
That's next week's problem.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Those are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE units!! There is an extra circuit board for the inducer and as Clover said, when 1 screws up it takes out the other. One of my co-workers told me of a scenario where the burner can fire without the ventor (and rollout) if the pressure switch sticks or the relay on the inducer board sticks. That pressure switch has 2 sets of contacts and does 2 jobs. I had one where the collector box on the inducer rotted out and yours is probably getting close to that. That furnace is scary! Paynes are prone to cracking the heat exchanger cells right behind the limit control. I could find cracks in that unit with a 95% certainty. Get yourself a new furnace.

In Payne's defence, it was a good furnace for the first 10-12 yrs or so.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Those are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE units!! There is an extra circuit board for the inducer and as Clover said, when 1 screws up it takes out the other. One of my co-workers told me of a scenario where the burner can fire without the ventor (and rollout) if the pressure switch sticks or the relay on the inducer board sticks. That pressure switch has 2 sets of contacts and does 2 jobs. I had one where the collector box on the inducer rotted out and yours is probably getting close to that. That furnace is scary! Paynes are prone to cracking the heat exchanger cells right behind the limit control. I could find cracks in that unit with a 95% certainty. Get yourself a new furnace.
> 
> In Payne's defence, it was a good furnace for the first 10-12 yrs or so.


What Yuri said is what I was refering to, not your "add on".

That furnace sucks sewer water! Surprised it still runs.:huh:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> Those are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE units!! There is an extra circuit board for the inducer and as Clover said, when 1 screws up it takes out the other. One of my co-workers told me of a scenario where the burner can fire without the ventor (and rollout) if the pressure switch sticks or the relay on the inducer board sticks. That pressure switch has 2 sets of contacts and does 2 jobs. I had one where the collector box on the inducer rotted out and yours is probably getting close to that. That furnace is scary! Paynes are prone to cracking the heat exchanger cells right behind the limit control. Get yourself a new furnace.
> 
> In Payne's defence, it was a good furnace for the first 10 yrs or so.


So I'll inspect the [relief?] box and replace the [draft safeguard?] switch and rehearse fire escape routes; do I need to replace gaskets if I disassemble this stuff?

Payne = Bryant?

If the HX cracks will my CO alarm go off?

How many kilobucks for an installed slightly smaller furnace [this furnace is only on 1/4th of the time in a typical winter]?

Maybe I can modify the circuitry to prevent cascading failures.

Should I inspect or clean the HX?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok, time to draw straws. Is Winnipeg or Windsor closer to DC? :laughing:


Somebody gotta rescue the boy from his slef!!


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

Just my $.02 Yoyz because I like to see you around. 

Everybody is right about replacing this boat anchor you call a furnace.

Will the CO dector fail .. it could and then the 1/4 of time it runs is enough to put you in a 6 ft deep sleep.

Play safe.....not stupid


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It is an EXTREMELEY difficult unit to troubleshoot and I won't even attempt to talk someone thru it on the internet. It has that inherent problem of the possibility of flame rollout I told you about so you are taking your life in your hands with that unit. I value safety more than $$ and I hope you do too. I won't give out advice on units I feel are unsafe. Thats my policy many times on this site and Hvacmechanic.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyzie we love ya like a 'bro! Kick that thing to the curb!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

I guess I'll get some bids.
How many kilobucks, installed, ya' think?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Aw common now. You know the routine. Get several estimates, plot a chart, we don't know the cost of living or prices in your area.

Geez:whistling2:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

What ever you do get a Westinghouse:thumbup::jester:.not a Lennox


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

I made a new collector box out of plywood. Haven't tested it yet but it's a beauty! :thumbsup:

These people 
http://www.checkbook.org/interactive/heatac/other/w/article.cfm
show be able to tell me about the contractors in my area.


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## SKIP4661 (Dec 3, 2008)

Your furnace has a thermal fuse connected to the high limit terminal, this acts as a roll out switch. It is kind of a cheesy way to do it but it works. The device with the two red wires attached to it in the fourth pic is a vent safety, will trip if the furnace doesn't vent properly.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Het a *"REAL"* load calc done to find what size you need.

Then you can save money on your heating bill. :thumbup:


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

is that a 150,000 BTU ?? Looks like a big furnace...


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> I guess I'll get some bids.


 

Can't install it yourself ??? :huh:As much as you post....I assumed you were in the business


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

kenmac said:


> Can't install it yourself ??? :huh:As much as you post....I assumed you were in the business



He did a spread sheet and discovered the odds were more in favor of the furnace lasting-then he posted the pic of the furnace:laughing: J/K Yoyzi


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> He did a spread sheet and discovered the odds were more in favor of the furnace lasting-then he posted the pic of the furnace:laughing: J/K Yoyzi


 

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

It's 167,000 input BTU/hr for a 2200 sq. ft. house and is only on 1/4th of the time during a typ. winter day/night.
I guess knowing the HDD for those days/nights I could figure what it would do on a 97.5% day/night and so figure the furnace size I really need.

I regret to report that 
before I sink some bucks into a new furnace 
I'm going to have my HVAC guy do maintenance and checks on the furnace and 
I will probably buy a new CO alarm.

And maybe buy one of those rope escape ladders.
:whistling2:


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## Milk man (Aug 5, 2009)

Unbelievable!

Get a load calc. done.

Buy the correct sized furnace.

CO kills. The rope ladder won't do any good. If you get mild CO poisoning you will be able to walk out the front door, if it's sever poisoning you won't be able to figure out how to use the ladder anyway.

Spend some money to start saving. Look into a 90%er, two stage. Look closely at a Lennox:laughing: (for Clover) I personally like Lennox.

You are being ridiculous. Penny smart/dollar stupid.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Milk man said:


> Unbelievable!


Believe it! :laughing:

I take it you make
"Decisions which tend to reduce the risk of negative outcomes"

The only CO poisoning I had gave me nausea and dizziness; that's when I found out that a moving car pulls a slight vacuum and so if you have a leak in the exhaust system the CO will be pulled into the passenger compartment.

But, my neighbor had the symptoms you get when you are just short of being killed. She didn't know how close she came to dying until I told her.

Seen any ghosts lately?
"Many of the phenomena generally associated with haunted houses, including strange visions and sounds and feelings of dread, can be attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning."


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## Ladderpouch.com (Sep 11, 2009)

nicely said!!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Ladderpouch.com said:


> nicely said!!


Thank you! :laughing:

I've decided to trade my CO problem for a CO₂ problem. The U. of MD is right down the road from me. I'll invite about 50 sorority sisters over, maybe more at night when it's cold. Each sister should be good for at least 500 BTU. :thumbsup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Believe it! :laughing:
> 
> I take it you make
> "Decisions which tend to reduce the risk of negative outcomes"
> ...



Yoyzie, I hate to say it but you beginning to become the poster child for oxygen deprivation.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Due Diligence, Duty of Care*

My HVAC guy has given my Bryant a clean bill of health. He said that a 26 year lifespan in this area is not unusual. But, I will get a new CO detector, or two.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

What method did he use to inspect the HX?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

beenthere said:


> What method did he use to inspect the HX?


duh. . . :confused1:

He said if it was cracked at the vent end I wouldn't notice flame movement and so I should have my Do Not Resuscitate paperwork in order. :thumbsup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

So he didn't check to see if it was cracked?

What kind of a check is that?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

beenthere said:


> What kind of a check is that?


It was a personal check on my local bank.:laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

LOL...

Rubber check, rubber inspection. :laughing:


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

I think the high ppm's of CO might have already caused some brain damage


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/biWBkaDv/Fv5jow/specific_TBI.jpg
The image on the right was taken before I went on this forum. The one on the left, well, . . .what was I talking about. . .?


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

Now that's just funny:laughing:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Plumber101 said:


> Now that's just funny:laughing:


Here's a better one. 

Years ago I had dizziness apparently due to BPPV.

The neurologist, me, and my wife are looking at a pic of my brain. 
I ask him what all these dark looking spots are and he tells me that they are blood vessels. 
Then he adds that I "have good blood flow to the brain."

It took my wife all of one millisecond to get furious.:laughing:


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