# 1952 Brick Traditional overhaul



## shadytrake

Hi Everyone,

My husband and I live in a TPWWII (Traditional Post WWII - yes that dates my husband :whistling2. 

I bought it in 1997 before we were married and we have been gradually overhauling it ever since. I'll have to dig out the old photos (pre-computer crash) to post, but here are the most recent projects.

Originally we had a 100' Elm Tree in the front but it was hit by lightning about 5 years ago and split. We were so lucky that it grazed the side of our house and hit the truck in the driveway. (Getting a truck repaired is a lot easier than dealing with homeowner's insurance). Anyway, we had the Elm removed. I have pictures of that, but I'll have to dig them out.

The main project in the overhaul is the kitchen. The original kitchen was a narrow galley and when I moved in, carpet, ugh!

Needless to say, that had to go. Here is the original demo.

The next step was expanding the kitchen. I had an architect come in and draw the original rendering and then give us three possible options for the expansion. 

The main reason to bring in the architect was to find all of the load bearing walls. Since we knew we would be doing the main demolition and framework, we wanted to know which walls could come down easily.

You can see in the last two photos that we broke through the original galley wall and a fake wall. These used to separate a laundry from an old pantry that had been converted to a closet.


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## shadytrake

Here are the original rendering and the new plan (sorry for the scribbles. When I change my mind, it's easier to write over the original plan than to keep drawing it).

You can see the original opening to the kitchen from the master bedroom is walled up because the opening from the old closet will become the new doorway. 

We were afraid that the previous owner had opened up the original exterior to add the "master bedroom" (he called it a workroom) and hadn't supported the load correctly. The easiest way to correct that was to close up the original opening to the galley by adding an extra header and walling it up. (sorry if my terminology is not accurate).

With the two walls down, three rooms became one big room for the kitchen. We will have an L shape. The only structural change is to open up the room to the living room to give a more open feel. That wall is structural (running the entire length of the house). 

The easiest way to open it up was to take the old opening to the hallway from the living room and put in an extra header and wall it up. That gave us the needed support to open up the kitchen. We only opened it the width of a doorway. It really opens up the space while the walled up hallway creates privacy to the guest bedroom, bathroom, and office.

More to come...


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## shadytrake

Jumping ahead a few years...(long story, suffice to say it was better to live off the kitchen remodel money than lose the house). :yes:

We finally got going heavy on the kitchen last fall (2011). We had a long (2-year) debate about the washer and dryer. Originally, we had placed them in the kitchen along the back wall. Thinking this would be the final placement, I purchased a new Bosch front loader to replace my old Frigidaire washer that finally broke. I didn't replace the dryer because it still worked.

Well, we put the washer/dryer in the kitchen spot and used it there for 2 years. I hated it there! Every crumb from our makeshift kitchen migrated to it and it became a dumping ground for everything.

So,....change of plans. Ripped out the plumbing and decided to put a stackable unit in the pantry. The only problem is the new washer won't fit! It's too wide. There is no way that we are breaking into the pantry wall (load bearing). So, have to sell the Bosch (or donate it to the Goodwill).

That wall will now hold a floor to ceiling pantry. (no place to dump junk now).:no:


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## shadytrake

Next chapter. We purchased the cabinets a couple of years ago when they went on clearance (Lowes decided to change from natural Maple to a Birch with what they call a Saddle finish).

The only thing we didn't purchase were the pantry cabinets. See above post #3. We will have to have the pantry cabinets custom built or search for some new/used ones.

Anyway, moving on. After a long debate about the floor, we decided to save money. Half of the floor had original Red Oak strip in really bad shape and the other half (original kitchen) had 1 layer of carpet and 4 layers of laminate over subfloor. The subfloor was even with the oak strip. 

It was not worth it to try to save the original strip and weave in new strip for the other half. The quotes were averaging $1000. No way. We thought maybe we should install new strip over the old but nothing we looked at would match the original in the house for our price point and we would have to really seal the floor to avoid doggie scratches. 

As it turns out, luck was on our side. A friend who owns a restaurant bought the space next to his restaurant (an old paint-your-ceramic store). The flooring in the store was a Red Oak laminate floating floor. He was going to rip it out and throw it. In exchange for my husband helping them with the expansion of the restaurant, he allowed us to carefully remove the flooring.

So we got our flooring free. We decided that instead of trying to completely match the original, we will let it be unique. If the next owner wants to install original flooring, they can just take it up easily. A floating floor sits on a foam pad and is not nailed down.

We rented a sander to level the subfloor (it had settled a bit). Since the floor is not perfect, we decided to install the floor before the base cabinets. That way the cabinets will be on top of the floor and have full height.

I set out and installed the floor by myself. Hubby will install the thresholds. I think I did a pretty good job. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

I forgot to talk about the electric and plumbing.

For those inquiring minds, we hired a professional electrician to pull the permit and do the electrical. 

We had a plumber move the gas line to the new location. The final work will be done by the pros under permit.

The initial work has already been inspected and approved under permit. With 1952 wiring, we are having to expand the circuits and we don't want to fool with that. Luckily the service has already been expanded.


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## shadytrake

Next step, cabinets. We installed the uppers first. Note: these are pre-fab cabinets from Lowes. There is nothing fancy.

This house is in a neighborhood where the max price is under $90K (and that's stretching it) so it would be really easy to over-improve. Have to be careful.

Flooring - Free
Sander rental - $50
Cabinets - Retail $1,800 (clearance price $900)
Insulation/New Mold/Water resistant drywall - $200
Plumber to move gas line - $50
Electrician - 70% due to this point. $1500. (special note: electrician is running new wire and re-configuring the circuits, because the prior owner did some jerry-rigging). We are getting a good deal.

Bosch Washer screw up - $950 (ugh).:furious: No way to really recover this except to donate it and take the charitable deduction. We've had it on Craig's List for several months with no takers.

Paint/Tape/Supplies - $300

Total spent so far to this step: $3950


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## shadytrake

Here is some information about our appliances. I know, I know...all of these HGTV shows encourage stainless.

After owning a side-by-side stainless fridge for the last 10+ years, we decided that it is a PIA to keep clean of fingerprints.

After doing a lot of research and shopping around, I found an incredible deal on a Sears Kenmore slide in gas range with an electric oven and warming drawer. Someone had custom ordered it and when it came in, was the wrong size (I know how they feel. :whistling2

Anyway, I got it for 75% off! What a steal. I got the matching dishwasher about 6mos later. About 1 year later, the microwave/vent-a-hood went on sale so I took advantage and paid cash.

Appliances Kenmore brand in biscuit.
Range - retail $1300 (sale $325).
Dishwasher - $250
Microwave/vent-a-hood - $200

We splurged on some other items. One of my "must haves" is a hot-water dispenser. These run about $200. We are hunting around to see if we can find a deal. 

We got a highly rated disposal. One of the tough decisions was the sink. All of the information I have read about them states that the deeper the sink, the less splash. Also, since we are not going with stainless, a stainless sink doesn't make sense.

After a lot of searching, we found a nice biscuit double sink made of Lucite with Microban. It will look great and it was economical.

Disposal: $75
Sink: $150
Hot Water dispenser: ?

Appliances so far: $1,000


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## shadytrake

Some of you may ask the question, why is the sink base not centered on the window. With such a small kitchen to work with, we wanted as many cabinets as possible without having to pay for custom.

If we had centered the sink base, we would have had to give up the dishwasher or re-locate the stove. By shifting the sink base to the left by 3", we were still able to have a regular sized base cabinet to the left of the sink and a dishwasher to the right.

The original plan had a blind left base, then the sink base, then the dishwasher. After manually placing the appliances and the sink base, we realized the blind left base wouldn't fit correctly anyway. 

So it all worked out for the best. :thumbup:


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## shadytrake

Jumping forward to real-time today. I had mentioned that we did a lot of our purchasing up front when we had the money. We did the same thing with the granite.

Originally we intended to splurge and go for a granite slab (the one BIG item). Well, last summer, an un-insured driver ran a red light and T-boned me in our truck. We LOVED our reliable Toyota long-bed truck. It had almost 200,000 miles and we owned it outright. 

Of course, she totaled it. So instead of getting the granite slab, we put the extra money to get the same truck with the long bed (but the newer model AND a crew-cab). Lucky us, I found a used one in the exact color as our previous. It was fate. :thumbsup:

Sorry, back to topic. When I was in Lowes, I found a really nice granite tile that they sold in-stock. These were on clearance sale. So I dragged hubby over to look. He was dead-set on Uba Tuba granite. I showed it to him and showed him the price and it was too good to pass up. We bought 4 or 5 boxes of the tiles. I think they were $25 per box of 10 tiles if I remember. The style is Santa Cecilia (or St. Cecilia). 

You can link here for the thread about the colors. 
http://www.diychatroom.com/f80/granite-tile-puzzle-150242/

I really like it better than the Uba Tuba.


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## shadytrake

So today's project is to get the under-layment installed and the Durock set. Will post when completed. We are on track for a finished kitchen by the end of this month. I can't believe it. We gutted in April 2002. This is the longest kitchen remodel (10+ years). Did we set a record?


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## shadytrake

Well hubby got too tired to get the Durock done today. But he did get the ply installed and it is level. 

Here is a picture of the sink. It is a CorStone. These sinks run over $200 now.


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## shadytrake

Update on the sink. We decided to exchange it after I double checked the most recent reviews. Not good. Will keep you posted. Have to find a replacement that is more durable and fits our color scheme.


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## shadytrake

Took back the sink today. The nice manager let us get store credit since I can't find the receipt. After a long "discussion," we finally decided on a Franke composite granite in a rusty brown color (matte finish). The reviews are mixed for this type of sink. A lot of 5 star mixed in with a fair amount of 1 stars. 

We are taking a chance since it is a dirty color and we don't have kids. The wear and tear should be light. Pics later.

Durock going in tomorrow!!


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## shadytrake

*A Few Updates*

Hi All,

Just thought I would post some exterior photos of our house. You can see the small shingle patch on the roof from when the Elm tree fell a few years ago. The roof has 3 layers and is about 15 years old. It is almost ready to be fully replaced. We don't like the color of the shingles which is why the trim color of the house doesn't pair up nicely. We like the dark brown trim with the brick color so the roof color will change...eventually. :whistling2:

Since the windows are still in fairly good condition and replacing them would have been about $1000 for really cheap crap, I decided to go DIY on them. I scraped, sanded, and removed all of the old glazing. I then re-primed, re-glazed, and re-painted them. Since they are old single panes which have no real RV value, I decided to order exterior mount storm windows. The color choice was a special order but they came with screen windows which is really nice for airflow and keeping the bugs out. The storm windows also protect the old windows from so much UV decay (the front of the house faces West and gets a beating during the summer afternoons).

Also one photo up close of the main front bed (a little overgrown because we have been ignoring it lately).


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## shadytrake

*Glazing*

Here is an up close of the 2nd stage of glazing and painting. It is a labor intensive job and is best done in the late fall when the weather is nice outside and the mosquitoes are dying.

You can see that I have completed the glazing and painting on these 2 windows. I have 3 windows left to do. I also had to replace a couple of panes (luckily we have a glass company in town...a cheap option).

The kitchen window trim will need some replacement which is why it isn't painted. The trim is rotted at the bottom.

Now all I have to do is complete that and then mount the storm windows.


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## shadytrake

Here are a couple of photos from when we repaired the attic vent and siding. The wood siding was peeling and had some rot. We rented a scaffold and scraped, repaired, primed, and painted. 

The paint job is just a temporary fix to keep the siding protected for now. We plan on a complete exterior paint job on the trim later on but needed to stop the decay and damage. When we replace the roof, we will repaint the trim with a much longer lasting exterior paint.


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## shadytrake

*The Garage had to Go*

And then there was the garage. We got a notice from the city a couple of years ago that the garage had to be removed because it was an "unsafe structure."

Yeah, so send me $$ so that I can hire labor and a dumpster to take it down. :furious: I didn't put the damn thing up half-ed.

Okay, fast-forward to 2012 and I decided that I didn't want the thing coming down on me, hubby, the dog, or my shadehouse full of orchids. So one weekend, we decided to take it down.

Here are the photos. And the roof comes down.


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## shadytrake

And the walls...and down she goes. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Now we have to cut the debris up into small pieces for the city to haul away. This is the DIY way...lots of blood, sweat, and tears. Only the money to pay for saws all blades. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

*Question*

Okay so hubby is working in the kitchen today finishing up the details before we start the granite tiles.

While he is doing that, I want your opinions please. Now that we have the garage down, we no longer have an enclosed back yard.

Since we have a dog (a Min-Pin), I like having a fence so that she can nose around while we are in the shadehouse with the orchids. 

Also, we live in an in-between neighborhood so having a secure backyard is nice.

So here is my problem. Our back entrance is in the addition which I guess was intended to be a work room or den off of the kitchen. The entrance is directly off of the driveway but is way back on the property (see the photo).

Because of this, people come right to the back door (our bedroom) which upsets the dog and makes me very uncomfortable. First of all, my parents would have never let me go to someone's back entrance (I consider it trespassing unless it is the mailman or a delivery person).

So I want a fence. I would like a fence to attach to the house, run across the driveway, and attach to the original wood fencing.

I could attach the fence to the addition (which is wood) or I could attach it to the brick.

I think that a motorized fence would be expensive but a nice option (it would have to swing inward and to the left). We would be parking the truck, our only vehicle, inside the fence all the way to the back of the driveway slab.

What do you think? Feasible or stupid idea?
Where do you think I should attach it?
What do you think would go with this style of house? (wood or iron)

It would have to contain the dog when closed.

I have attached some photos of the driveway(sorry, still have garage debris that we are removing).


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## shadytrake

The Durock is installed! We will granite tile the countertops this weekend! Yay!


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## shadytrake

Here is the final dry fit of the sink. Next is the final layout of the granite tile before starting the cuts.

I can see the light at the end of this long kitchen remodel.

I like this sink way better than the cream color. Plus if we decide to sell, this sink will fit the next owner's appliance choice should they want to change them (it goes with white, stainless, black, or cream).

What do you think? C'mon....any feedback out there?


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## kwikfishron

I like the sink, never really been fond of cream anything.

I do thing the rosettes and fluted trim under the sill look out of place though. :wink:


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## JazMan

I haven't used Durock Gen 2 at all. What did you put between the plywood and your Durock?

Ten years............. you've got patience. :laughing:

Jaz


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## shadytrake

JazMan said:


> I haven't used Durock Gen 2 at all. What did you put between the plywood and your Durock?
> 
> Ten years............. you've got patience. :laughing:
> 
> Jaz



Versabond fortified thin-set mortar that we got from Lowes or HD. 

Ten years, two unemployments and almost debt free! Yes, I have learned to have patience.

What's the old saying, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

I should be superwoman by now. :laughing:

Okay back to the granite tile layout. Back later.


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## shadytrake

Well we didn't get all the tile set but we got some of it done. I think the grain patterns match very well. I spent a ton of time piecing them together to look like they were cut from the same slab.

What do you think? Of course, when we impregnate it, the color will really come out.


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## Evstarr

I think you have done an amazing job!
And next time my wife grumps at me for a job not yet completed, I'm showing her this thread.


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## maranello055

looks really good so far!


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## shadytrake

Well we almost have all of the granite installed. A few weird cuts that hubby is "thinking" about before cutting. In the meantime, we got the microwave vent hood upper cabinet installed and the last upper cabinet that will be home to all of the great spices that hubby likes to cook with.

I got up early to measure and drill the holes for the microwave. I drilled and cut the exhaust hole and the power cord hole too. I'm getting handy with the multi-tool.


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## shadytrake

Here are a few more photos. I measured and cut the holes for the microwave and vent all by myself. 

Oh and a couple of pictures of my orchids just for fun. Enjoy. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Adding the orchid pictures.


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## shadytrake

Woo Hoo, got the microwave installed. My drilled holes and cuts were all in the correct spot.:thumbup:

Hubby says he can install trim pieces on the left and right to make it look seamless.


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## smalpierre

Great job guys! It's so hard to make everything work in those post WWII's, and you never know what you're going to run across.

I've found all manner of crazy stuff in them - green shag carpet over beautiful maple and oak floors, chalking aluminum siding over cedar, spaghetti wiring, 5 layers of roofing, wadded up newspaper insulation etc :laughing:

They're so small in most cases it's difficult to figure out how to make them workable, and hard to justify spending a ton of money on them unless they are in particular areas. High Point and Berclair areas come to mind ...


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## shadytrake

Hi Smalpierre,

You are so right! We are in Sherwood near the UofM. Prime rental area so if we move, we will have a nice investment property.

This is not the High Point Terrace price point.  (though I wish it were) 

I do have a custom project in mind for the kitchen. More on that later. I'm drawing plans and it involves curves and metal.


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## shadytrake

So here is my side project for the kitchen. Originally, I wanted hubby to build extra cabinets above the pre-fabs to add more storage. However, in thinking about it more, I think it will be a LOT of wood in a smallish kitchen.

So I put my thinking cap on :jester: and I came up with a neat plan that I can do mostly by myself with just a little help from hubby.

To the left and right upper cabinets surrounding the window, I decided to mount wine glass holders to the ceiling. I found 4 very inexpensive chrome holders at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. I bought some metallic spray paint at HD. Took a piece of sandpaper to them and sprayed them to match the burnished copper/bronze sink faucet.

After I sand, prime, and paint the ceiling, I'll mount them and they will create a nice movement for the eye above the cabinets. They will be perfect for holding my antique crystal wine glasses that I inherited from my mom. She and my dad bought them in the early 60's from an estate sale (at least that is the story). The picture is just an example - not the actual glasses (they are packed away in storage).

Then to the right of the glasses on the right side, I am going to mount a wine rack. I saw this rack on ebay that is made out of painted cardboard tubing. I got some plumber PVC to make a custom rack. The circle movement will give a nice break to all of the square wood in the kitchen. I haven't decided on the color yet, but I'm thinking that I will follow the color scheme of the fabric for the window. That might bring some funky color into the kitchen to balance out all that wood.

Here is my handwritten plan and some example photos. What do you think? I think it is going to look very cool.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Adding the orchid pictures.


Nice plants!

I have a chum in California (Santa Barbara) who grows orchids. I think Eric must have been doing this for years because he has so many different orchids and they are all truly stunning.

With your permission I could put a few on your thread, or conversely I could add some of them to mine and you could see some of what he has.


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## shadytrake

Sure!


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## shadytrake

Got the ceiling sanded and primed for the wine glass racks. I'm so excited. I think it is going to look great. 

I did decide to add crown and the pre-fab corner blocks all around the ceiling. Joining new drywall with the old rock was no easy task and the crown will hide the small imperfections. The crown will be the same white as the ceiling.

Hubby is making the final cuts and installing the last of the granite tile today too. A busy day in our kitchen. 

Next step is the glass mosaic tile backsplash.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Sure!


OK...here's a few that Eric sent me awhile ago. I think he keeps these outside on his back porch area. Enjoy.


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## shadytrake

Cool! The first two are very nice Cymbidiums. The purple pinky one looks like Dendrobium kingianum and the last two are Phalaenopsis. Cyms don't grow very well here (too hot). Dendrobiums are my all time favorites. I have over 25 species. Phals grow great and bloom reliably. Nice pics!


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## smalpierre

shadytrake said:


> Got the ceiling sanded and primed for the wine glass racks. I'm so excited. I think it is going to look great.
> 
> I did decide to add crown and the pre-fab corner blocks all around the ceiling. Joining new drywall with the old rock was no easy task and the crown will hide the small imperfections. The crown will be the same white as the ceiling.
> 
> Hubby is making the final cuts and installing the last of the granite tile today too. A busy day in our kitchen.
> 
> Next step is the glass mosaic tile backsplash.


Great call on the crown - but why not cope it? Not that I'd EVER suggest leaving it drywall, but the corner tools make mudding inside corners pretty painless. Again, I'd never suggest that unless you were going to do the unthinkable and popcorn the ceiling 

Beautiful plants guys - I'm jealous! You won't find me in a flower garden for a good reason :whistling2:


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## smalpierre

Speaking of joining new / old sheetrock ... you didn't tear out the ceiling? Are you making it flat, or texturing it? Or should I have even asked  I love a flat ceiling, but they can be a royal pain to get perfectly flat unless you replace it all.


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## shadytrake

smalpierre said:


> Great call on the crown - but why not cope it? Not that I'd EVER suggest leaving it drywall, but the corner tools make mudding inside corners pretty painless. Again, I'd never suggest that unless you were going to do the unthinkable and popcorn the ceiling
> 
> Beautiful plants guys - I'm jealous! You won't find me in a flower garden for a good reason :whistling2:


OMG hubby mentioned popcorning the ceiling today and I said "absolutely  not!" I am willing to accept small imperfections in the ceiling due to the age of the house. We can scrim (right term?) coat the patch areas. We will be painting the ceiling a flat white. I doubt our visitors are going to look up and inspect every part of the ceiling. :laughing:

We have popcorn in the addition and one of the future projects is to remove it. It reminds me of apartment living. :yes:

RE: Coping. I have already started adding those pre-fab corners to other rooms and I really like the look. You can see what it looks like in this link (post #2). I'm using the smallest ones and they add a little something extra IMHO.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/guestroom-before-after-149606/


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## shadytrake

smalpierre said:


> Speaking of joining new / old sheetrock ... you didn't tear out the ceiling? Are you making it flat, or texturing it? Or should I have even asked  I love a flat ceiling, but they can be a royal pain to get perfectly flat unless you replace it all.


No actually we didn't tear out any of it.  We have a few areas that were patched. (The furdowns, the removed wall, and 2 old light fixtures).

Too expensive to replace for just 4 patch areas. :yes:


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## shadytrake

Another orchid photo. This is my first AOS award orchid. (American Orchid Society) I received an HCC award for it.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Another orchid photo. This is my first AOS award orchid. (American Orchid Society) I received an HCC award for it.


Congratulations!

Please forgive my very considerable ignorance, but could you let us know what an HCC award is? Thanks.


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## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> Please forgive my very considerable ignorance, but could you let us know what an HCC award is? Thanks.


High Class Certificate. It was awarded 78 points out of a possible 100. HCCs are 70-79 pts. 80-89 pts gets an Award of Merit (AM). 90-100 gets a First Class Certificate (FCC). FCCs are really hard to get. These are all flower awards.

You can also get a CCM, CHM, and CCE. These are awarded on the quality of the whole plant. Certificate of Cultural Merit, Horticulture Merit, or Cultural Excellence.

My husband is in charge of the orchids at the Memphis Botanic Gardens and before my mom passed, she grew and showed roses. They taught me how to have a green thumb. We grow them as a team and it is a lot of fun.


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## shadytrake

Hubby decided to drill the faucet holes on the sink too. He is convinced that the faucet we bought last year will work. We have a side bet.

I don't think the on/off lever is going to clear the window stool. :no: He says it will. :yes: I said, "drill it and show me." Then I will decide if we have to buy a different faucet. Either way, it will be a 3-hole so we would have to drill it anyway.


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## smalpierre

shadytrake said:


> No actually we didn't tear out any of it. We have a few areas that were patched. (The furdowns, the removed wall, and 2 old light fixtures).
> 
> Too expensive to replace for just 4 patch areas. :yes:


I usually tear out if I'm going for a flat ceiling. Most of it is nailed up, and sagging between the rafters to some degree or another. At $7 / sheet for drywall it's cheaper for me than the endless mudding and sanding to get a really perfect job. Also gives me a perfect opportunity to get rid of the nasty 50 year old blown in insulation.

I also prefer sheetrock to be screwed, as I've never heard of a "screw pop", but I've seen plenty of nail pops.

It doesn't really matter though as long as it's firmly attached, and flat though does it :thumbup:


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> High Class Certificate. It was awarded 78 points out of a possible 100. HCCs are 70-79 pts. 80-89 pts gets an Award of Merit (AM). 90-100 gets a First Class Certificate (FCC). FCCs are really hard to get. These are all flower awards.
> 
> You can also get a CCM, CHM, and CCE. These are awarded on the quality of the whole plant. Certificate of Cultural Merit, Horticulture Merit, or Cultural Excellence.
> 
> My husband is in charge of the orchids at the Memphis Botanic Gardens and before my mom passed, she grew and showed roses. They taught me how to have a green thumb. We grow them as a team and it is a lot of fun.


Interesting....my grandfather was a horticultural person of some renown in Sussex many years ago. Fortunately, he passed along much of his knowledge to both my mum and myself.

I make no pretenses as to being any sort of a horticultural wizard, but I do have a great interest in Japanese gardening.


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## shadytrake

BTW - Santa Barbara has an excellent orchid vendor. Santa Barbara Orchid Estate. They have some awesome plants for sale.


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## smalpierre

shadytrake said:


> Hubby decided to drill the faucet holes on the sink too. He is convinced that the faucet we bought last year will work. We have a side bet.
> 
> I don't think the on/off lever is going to clear the window stool. :no: He says it will. :yes: I said, "drill it and show me." Then I will decide if we have to buy a different faucet. Either way, it will be a 3-hole so we would have to drill it anyway.


I had some problems with a faucet in a bathroom not long ago that wouldn't clear the backsplash. I hate it when that happens!


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## cocobolo

smalpierre said:


> I had some problems with a faucet in a bathroom not long ago that wouldn't clear the backsplash. I hate it when that happens!


Chainsaw...hammer and chisel....dynamite....:thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> Chainsaw...hammer and chisel....dynamite....:thumbsup:


Harley Davison special tool #'s 1 through 4. :lol:


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## BigJim

I don't know why I haven't been checking in on your thread, y'all have come a long way, it is really looking good. How did the bet turn out, did the handles work OK? I knew I recognize the neighborhood y'all live in, I just couldn't place it. The last house I built was in the Memphis State area. I know they changed the name of the collage but I never got use to it. I take that back, I built one in North Mississippi and Jackson Tenn after that house in Memphis, that was the last house in Memphis.

You have some beautiful flowers, thanks for sharing the pictures.


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## shadytrake

jiju1943 said:


> I don't know why I haven't been checking in on your thread, y'all have come a long way, it is really looking good. How did the bet turn out, did the handles work OK? I knew I recognize the neighborhood y'all live in, I just couldn't place it. The last house I built was in the Memphis State area. I know they changed the name of the collage but I never got use to it. I take that back, I built one in North Mississippi and Jackson Tenn after that house in Memphis, that was the last house in Memphis.
> 
> You have some beautiful flowers, thanks for sharing the pictures.


The jury's still out on the faucet. I stopped him from drilling and grinding at 1am. I was worried our new neighbor wouldn't appreciate that since her bedroom is next to our driveway. 

When I went to college, it was Memphis State but when I graduated it was University of Memphis. I liked the old name better.

I'm thinking about going off the grid for our greenhouse/shadehouse. I think we get enough light to make solar workable. I'm investigating it. That would really lower our utility bill. Heating the orchids in the winter can push our bill to $400 at times. It makes me guilty for our environmental footprint.


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## cocobolo

That's good thinking on the solar power for your orchids.

There's plenty of ideas that cost very little that you can do for yourself. Hot water heating with solar works even in the winter time. There are literally thousands of websites out there with tons of info. Good luck.


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## shadytrake

Hubby won the bet. For the sake of peace and to make sure he doesn't go on strike for the rest of the project, I am conceding the faucet choice. We had already bought it before we changed the sink and he doesn't want to exchange it for oil rubbed bronzy copper.

Plus the hot water dispenser choices are expanded with brushed nickel. I'll post a pic of the faucet a little later. I concede. Gotta keep the labor happy.


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## shadytrake

Here are pics from the faucet bet. I wanted oil rubbed bronze/copper but I forgot we bought this faucet last year.

Do you think it is too stainless looking for our biscuit colored appliances? Hubby thinks oil rubbed bronze/copper will be lost in the sink color.

I already concede, but I want opinions anyway. Nothing like stirring the pot. :whistling2:


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## shadytrake

Here are pics from the wineglass rack post spraying coat #2. I think they look great. Total project cost, $60. This is a fun project. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Next step is picking the color for the window trim. I was thinking basic white but the appliances are biscuit so that trim might make them seem dirty. I'm pulling the Roman Shade fabric to see if I want to pull a color from it for the trim. Hmmm...this is going to be a tough one.


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## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> Here are pics from the faucet bet. I wanted oil rubbed bronze/copper but I forgot we bought this faucet last year.
> 
> Do you think it is too stainless looking for our biscuit colored appliances? Hubby thinks oil rubbed bronze/copper will be lost in the sink color.
> 
> I already concede, but I want opinions anyway. Nothing like stirring the pot. :whistling2:


I agree with your husband, I think the oil rubbed bronze would be lost. We are going with the oil rubbed bronze in our bath room remodel and used it in our half bath we just built. I like y'alls sink.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> BTW - Santa Barbara has an excellent orchid vendor. Santa Barbara Orchid Estate. They have some awesome plants for sale.


I got a note from Eric just a few days ago and he mentioned that he and his lady had just returned from there.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Here are pics from the faucet bet. I wanted oil rubbed bronze/copper but I forgot we bought this faucet last year.
> 
> Do you think it is too stainless looking for our biscuit colored appliances? Hubby thinks oil rubbed bronze/copper will be lost in the sink color.
> 
> I already concede, but I want opinions anyway. Nothing like stirring the pot. :whistling2:


IMO the stainless will pick up the colour from whatever surrounds it. I say leave well enough alone and thank hubby profusely.


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## shadytrake

Woo hoo! The grout is going in today. Yay! Hubby is cleaning all of the granite with denatured alcohol prepping it for the grout.

We decided after a long "discussion" that we would go with the Laticrete SpectraLOCK stain proof (not) grout. It is an epoxy grout and the reviews are pretty good. The StarQuartz was not available locally and could only be ordered. I'm not comfortable choosing colors over the internet.

Lowe's had a very good selection of colors and had our granite installed in one of their kitchen displays so we hauled all of our choices to their counter and picked the color. We are going with natural grey (or gray).

While we were out and about (I'm on vacation the rest of the week), I told hubby about this tile I saw on sale at HD. I convinced him to take a look. He liked it AND the price was $5/sq ft cheaper than our original choice.

So here is the final backsplash tile at $6/sq ft. 33 sq ft = $198 saving us $165! I LOVE it. 

Of course now I hate the wall color (too yellow) but it was a Valspar disaster anyway so it will be changed. I found a local SW paint store that is my new best friend.

What do you think of my backsplash? The savings alone are worth it I think. :yes:


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## shadytrake

Grout is DONE!!

What do you think? If you stand back a couple of feet, the grout lines fade to the background which is what I was going for.


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## BigJim

I don't think you could have chosen a better color grout, that does look really nice.


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## Amateuralex

I really like that.


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## GARConst11

Wow! Looks really good, and I love the backsplash! We recently did something similar in our bathroom shower but with the squares instead. Look forward to seeing the finished project! :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Welllllllllll :whistling2:we changed our minds on the backsplash for the last time. :laughing:

In looking at it for a whole day, we decided that it was too craftsman and didn't fit our style. 

The good news is that HD had another choice that we had discarded originally because the horrible fluorescent lighting in the store didn't do it justice. We brought our tile and took the other tile to the lighting section and put it under a kitchen lighting setting.

Decision made, price was the same, and the tile is purchased. Hubby said good thing he hadn't started installing otherwise it would have been :bangin:

So here it is...our tile. No going back. Hubby is installing it tomorrow. :w00t:

Oh and this helped me pick the window trim color. The light blue glass is going to be the window trim in a lighter version and the new wall color will be a light neutral.


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## shadytrake

Here is the progress on the backsplash. Can you see our laser level line on the bottom of the cabinets? It's level! :thumbup:

I'm thinking a medium dark grout. :whistling2: So many choices...


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## shadytrake

The backsplash is almost completed. The trim pieces have to be individually cut. Very tedious. 

While hubby was working on that, I got to work on the roman shade for the window. I finished it and it is ready to mount after the painting is completed. The pleats will fold in place after mounting. :thumbsup:

Looks pretty good and is almost exactly square. An easy DIY project following these blog directions. Works like a charm!

http://jenduncan.typepad.com/whats_new/2008/11/roman-blind-tutorial-in-20-pictures-or-less.html

Now we are installing the crown trim so that I can finish my wine glass rack project.


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## shadytrake

Found the Insinkerator Hot Water dispenser today. I wanted the H Wave but it was really expensive so I went with the H View. I think it looks very similar and the warranty is the same on the tank.

This was my single splurge on the kitchen. Have to have instant hot water. We have one at work and it is the most convenient thing to have in a kitchen.


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## Thadius856

I like the hot water dispenser.

We went the opposite route and roughed in a pot filler faucet above the stove. Both seem to save about the same amount of time in different ways (and add a bit of kitchen bling).


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## shadytrake

Yeah a pot filler would be nice but adding plumbing there would have been expensive. They are awesome though.


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## shadytrake

I'm looking for the pendant light to go over the butcher block. So far, this one is the front runner.

I think it picks up the color from the window shade and the glass ties in with the backsplash.


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## shadytrake

Been gone a little while for surgery. All better. No cancer! Yay! :thumbsup:

Kitchen backsplash is still waiting for the last finishing row of special cuts. That is holding up the sink install. But since hubby took such good care of me after surgery, I won't get too grumpy. :whistling2:

Today, we decided that since the new washer arrived, it was time to have laundry again. We pulled out all of the old dryer venting from under the house (yuck). I'm so glad we went with the washer/dryer combination unit (vent less). 

We turned off the circuit, separated the old 220v, and capped it off. The electrician will use the other half for some of the new kitchen wiring. Since that line was already run and the wire is up to code, we just moved it about 4 feet to get it into the laundry closet. We will install a GFCI since it is close to the supply hookups.

Turned off the water and crawled under the house (well hubby did...I was the assistant today). Since we were moving the water line about 4 feet, he said it was a simple plumbing connection. So then we go to test the plumbing line to check for any leak. Note: Always a good idea to SHUT OFF the supply valves. He turned the water on and I hear this Niagara waterfall and then I see the cat streaking out of the kitchen and water shooting after him. I got totally soaked but I got the valves shut and grabbed a bunch of towels to sop up the mess.

Needless to say, a fun day at our house. The install is almost done. We are going to get it hooked up temporarily just so we can do some loads, then disconnect the washer and finish off the laundry room details (paint, install shelf and clothes rod). By tomorrow I should be able to wash clothes!

Pictures tomorrow! :yes:


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## shadytrake

*Look What I got for my Birthday*

Birthday and Anniversary!

A working kitchen sink! Yay! The hot water dispenser is installed too, but have to wait for the electrician to finish the wiring in order to use the disposal, the dishwasher, and the dispenser.

But I am thrilled! Sink looks great and no leaks. We even installed two P-traps for better drainage and two 45 elbows to reduce the noise.

Best birthday and anniversary present ever! :thumbsup:


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## Evstarr

Congrats on both your health and your kitchen!!! Looking good!


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## Thadius856

shadytrake said:


> We turned off the circuit, separated the old 220v, and capped it off. The electrician will use the other half for some of the new kitchen wiring. Since that line was already run and the wire is up to code, we just moved it about 4 feet to get it into the laundry closet. We will install a GFCI since it is close to the supply hookups.


Not sure how 2-phase lines can be separated safely and to code without running new wiring.

Can you elaborate more on this? I'd really hate for something to happen to your house.


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## shadytrake

Thadius856 said:


> Not sure how 2-phase lines can be separated safely and to code without running new wiring.
> 
> Can you elaborate more on this? I'd really hate for something to happen to your house.


Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. This is a single phase 240 wiring not 2-phase. Basically the electrician said that two 110 circuit breakers are barred together. We simply removed the wire from one bar and capped it. It now acts as a 110 breaker.

The electricians will replace the barred together circuit breakers with two separate circuits when they return. 

The second one will be attached to newly run wire and used for something else in the kitchen.

The remaining wire from the 240 line will just remain capped off in the box.


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## Thadius856

This makes much more sense. I was getting worried that you'd leave both conductors hot and hooked up, and just throw a wire nut on the unused one, then pigtail off it from there.. As long as it's disconnected on both ends and the common trip is removed, it's not going to be a safety problem.

I'd be concerned that somebody in the future may do something stupid. Personally, I'd probably cut back the second hot in the panel to the point that it was not reusable. But I doubt it'd be required of you to do so.

BTW... your disposal looks to be a 1hp InSinkErator Evolution... is that correct? How do you like it?


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## shadytrake

Thadius856 said:


> This makes much more sense. I was getting worried that you'd leave both conductors hot and hooked up, and just throw a wire nut on the unused one, then pigtail off it from there.. As long as it's disconnected on both ends and the common trip is removed, it's not going to be a safety problem.
> 
> I'd be concerned that somebody in the future may do something stupid. Personally, I'd probably cut back the second hot in the panel to the point that it was not reusable. But I doubt it'd be required of you to do so.
> 
> BTW... your disposal looks to be a 1hp InSinkErator Evolution... is that correct? How do you like it?


We'll probably have the electricians cut it back.

The disposal is the 5/8ths hp evolution space saver. It's extremely quiet and efficient. We tried it with an extension cord since the under cabinet wiring is to be completed by the electricians. We are in the home stretch.


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## shadytrake

The fun part about the home stretch is doing all of the finishing work, punch lists, and design stuff.

While we wait to save up the last bit of money to hook up the gas, test it with MLG&W, and have the electricians finish their part, I have been working on the details.

We went thrift hunting on Saturday and look what we found! A steal of a deal on a Mid-Century Modern Broyhill Premier Forward '70 china breakfront and credenza from the early 60's. WOW! It is hard to find well-made furniture like this anymore. It is solid hand-rubbed walnut and in very good condition (a few scratches are to be expected on a 50 year-old).

This will make a great display case for my mom's china that I inherited. Plus the great storage below will house some of my wedding gifts that have been boxed up in the attic for years!

For now, we are going to use it along the pantry wall in the kitchen because the dining room is holding tools from the remodel project and the garage tear-down. Eventually it will reign supreme over our dining room. 

Better photos posted now. Too tired to load it tonight.


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## shadytrake

Well today's project is not part of the kitchen but it has to be done. 

When I went up to the attic to bring down the boxes of stored kitchen items and dishes (yay!), I discovered that we had had a visitor in the attic. Wondering how it had gotten in, I went outside to investigate. We had just replaced the siding and painted a couple of years ago. Recently, however, our neighbor had workers over repairing her siding so I got to thinking that she might have displaced a critter.

Upon careful inspection, I finally found the two holes that the bugger had torn into the attic. It tore through an older piece of siding that we hadn't replaced because it wasn't rotten. After determining that it was indeed gone from the attic, hubby fixed the siding as well as another possible future point of entry too. Might as well fix them now rather than suffer the consequences later.

Now the task was to figure out what had been up there so that cleanup is safe. The scat is too large to be a rat or a squirrel, so I was thinking raccoon or possibly (not likely), an opossum. I googled pictures and it is raccoon scat. It turns out that raccoon scat can be very dangerous and the cleanup should be in hazmat suits with a respirator. UGH!

The good news (if you can call it that) is that it appears the visitor stayed only a short time by the number of piles counted. I know...it is gross. So today, I wear a disposable coverall and a respirator and take out the gross. 

The really good news is that after that is done, we are putting in brand new insulation! :clap: Might as well start fresh, so I will be scooping all of the old insulation out. It wasn't much anyway. Back in the 50's, they just didn't insulate. In fact, the insulation is probably 4" thick at best of old paper particles. I don't think anyone has put new insulation since then.

Anyway, it's 7:30 am and off to HD for my supplies.


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## shadytrake

Well I only got half of the job done, because well, it sucks to be in an attic fully suited with a mask and pulling out raccoon scat insulation. At least it is fall and the weather was cool. My hubby was suitably impressed that I stuck with the project working mostly by myself hauling those full bags down the stairs and to the street.

After I was done for the day, he mixed up a Xylene solution for me. I sprayed the walls, floor, and the top of the ceiling drywall. This should kill any raccoon roundworm eggs. Actually down here in the south, only about 14% of raccoons are carriers so I think my precautions coupled with the Xylene spray should be fine.

I also spoke with my neighbor today and she said that she had hired a wildlife removal service and they did trap 2 raccoons so we think the critters are gone for sure. At least with our repairs, they can't get in again.


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## Thadius856

That's pretty good news.

After our attic fire, we toyed with the idea of cashing out the de-insulation. At only about 6" deep, how hard could it be? Less than 100 sq ft later, we gave up and hired it out.

You just can't compete with a vacuum truck using a 8" hose unless your shop vac is the size of a woodshop dust collector bin. Plus, everything we hauled out had to go out through the roof trusses, so large bags were out of the question.

Glad it's working out. Stick with it!


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## shadytrake

Hey y'all. Ever feel like you lost a year of your life? Well that was 2013 for me. Happy new year in January 2013, you have cancer. The whole year basically consisted of surgery, chemo, radiation, and recovery.

Then my brother, Lt. Cmdr Alan Patterson, died in the Navy EA-6B Prowler crash outside of Seattle last March. It was a long and drawn out ordeal while they searched for remains. We finally were able to arrange the military funeral at the Naval Academy last April. It is hard to believe that it has been a year.

Anyway, I'm back and I see that there are lots of new threads to read. My own project was put on hold somewhat, but we did get a few things done. We put up a driveway gate to add privacy for our back door (the neighbors would come up and knock at the back at all hours and the door leads to our bedroom...totally irritating at 7am when you are trying to recover from a chemo treatment).

Now the dog has the run of the back yard and she likes that for sure. So anyway, sorry for rambling. I'll be in and out as we gear up for summer projects.


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## shadytrake

*Summer is Here!*

Well I just can't do inside projects during the summer. I want to be outside this year after losing most of last year.

We are building a new greenhouse. Right now we are trying to design a rocket thermal mass heater system so we can be mostly off the grid for winter heating. The winter heating bills were killing us. 

Also, I am working on the grading since we have had so much rain. Plus I put in a garden and a french drain. Lots of projects. I am definitely getting back in shape. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

And more photos of the greenhouse project. There were a million parts. Lots of arguing trying to read the directions and following an on line blog.


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## shadytrake

And a few more photos.


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## JazMan

I pray your cancer has been stopped and you are doing well. I wish you the best.:yes:

We are also saddened by the death of your brother. I read a few articles about what happened and feel bad for your family. 

A family friend, (someone my son went to school with) is stationed out that way. They're NW of Seattle. I think he's a navigator on an F-18. I believe he also does training. 

I salute all our armed forces and civilians in sensitive positions. :thumbsup:

Jaz


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## BigJim

I second what Jaz said, we are glad to have you back and hope all is well.

I checked out the rocket mass thermal heater, that is amazing, if y'all build one will you post pictures and how you are doing it here. If it does all they say it does it will for sure be well worth the trouble.


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## Windows on Wash

Heal up fast. You are in our thoughts and prayers.


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## shadytrake

Well I have found an ad on Craigslist for fire brick from an old kiln. The guy has over 1000 bricks on 100 brick pallets. So, I've called him for 1 pallet. That is $100. My budget for this Rocket Mass heater was $150, but I'm thinking that it might go over that. Today's project is to try to find two 25 or 30 gallon barrels. Off to the scrap yard...later!


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## shadytrake

Found three 16 gallon new barrels for $40 total! Score! They are a good size that won't take up a big footprint.


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## shadytrake

Right now I am supervising, because hubby doesn't need my help. :no: We decided to put in a ridge pole, because I had a BRILLIANT idea. BRILLIANT I SAY! :thumbup: We have always had a problem with the rafted wet wall orchids dripping more water than needed into the potted orchids. So I was looking at the floor plan design and it came to me. EUREKA! Put a skinny wet wall in the middle of the greenhouse creating two walkways. It serves three purposes. The floor to ceiling structure provides support for the ridge pole. The west side of the wet wall can hold the hotter sun loving orchid rafts and the east wall can hold the medium sun loving orchid rafts. We can put smaller seedling rafts at the bottom so there is no "trip" hazard. 

I measured it out and penciled it on the floor and it allows a 3' walkway at the door and the opposite end and 2' 7" on each side. Perfect! The wall will be the width of a 2x4 and 3' long. It will be covered in galvanized rabbit cage wire. 

Last night I went Craigslist hunting and I found three 16 gallon barrels for the Rocket Mass heater. I also found a guy with salvaged kiln fire brick. 100 brick pallet for $100. The barrels were $40. My original budget for the system was $150. I see now that I will be going over, but it won't be by much. The rest of the supplies should be under $100 total. This project is really taking shape now.


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## shadytrake

Back to HFGH updates for today. I have photos! The wet wall in the middle eliminates the need for the EMT tube supports so I will return all of those supplies tomorrow. The wet wall ends up saving us about $50 in supplies. I love it when that happens. Now we finish the shelf framing and start the RMH design. It will take a bit of experimenting and we are researching the thermal mass material that we want to use. The standard is cob (clay mud mixture), but we can't use that in a greenhouse. We have seen some folks use sand. I dunno about this one...more research required.









Next step, build the frame for the swamp cooler and trench for water and electrical. We are going to run PEX underground for the water line and that grey electrical PVC for the Romex.


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## cocobolo

Is there any reason you can't use water for your thermal mass?


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## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> Is there any reason you can't use water for your thermal mass?


Hi Keith, 

We would have to use a lot more expensive material to use water because of the corrosion issue. We thought about it, but the cast iron plumbing pipe is not used as much any more so we would have to source it (8x the cost). 

We are thinking about cinder block/mortar + brick/sand.


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## cocobolo

Plastic pipe and plastic barrel?


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## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> Plastic pipe and plastic barrel?


Interesting idea. I'll have to keep that one if our plan doesn't work.


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## shadytrake

It was quite hot outside on Sunday so we spent the better part of the day discussing the RMH design. We finally got around to working on the greenhouse in the early evening. After determining that our hammer drill was no match for the concrete slab, I sped over to Home Depot and rented a real hammer drill. Got that and the bit and was checking out with 5 mins to closing time! I'm sure my neighbor didn't appreciate our hammer drilling until 9:45 pm. Oh well, at least we finished before 10 pm. We had one oops moment where we didn't drill deep enough. We put the lead sleeve in the hole and it wasn't deep enough to take the screw. We'll have to plug that hole. Just cosmetic.


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## shadytrake

Monday's update. We are moving right along with the project. We liked the previous design that we used in the shade house so we will duplicate that almost exactly. 

In the interest of reduce, recycle, and reuse, we are definitely eco-friendly on this portion of the greenhouse. The shelves are bread trays that were thrown out years ago. I found them on the side of a dumpster the year that we first built our shade house. We will use the brown ones that are slightly smaller on the East side of the greenhouse and the larger grey ones on the West side. This allows us to have four trays of shelving on each side without interfering with the RMH. 

The wall with the styrofoam is where my potting bench will go (bigger of course) and to the right will be the sink. Above me in the gable, will be the swamp cooler. That way the nice cool air will flow down on me as I am working.









The top shelf will be reused Closet Maid shelving from our old shade house. I'm hoping that we have enough to avoid buying any more. We salvaged a bunch of the wall brackets and supports from the old junk left from the previous home owner 15 years ago. How's that for junk hoarding!









As for lighting, misting, and the sink: all will come from the old shade house. I don't think we will need all of the lights now that we are in a better light location, but you never know. We'll have to see how much (if any) supplemental light will be needed in the winter. 

We are now searching for some freebie stuff on Craigslist. Hubby is convinced that we can find cinder block or brick free. I found some for 0.30cents / brick and that is the best deal so far.


----------



## shadytrake

Here are a few photos of my orchids.


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## shadytrake

And a few more.


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## shadytrake

Craigslist score! Someone posted free brick on the curb so we hauled butt over there at 10pm tonight and picked it up. It isn't good enough to use for the thermal box, but it makes great rubble for the thermal mass fill. We are getting close to securing all of the needed supplies.

Today I did a small dry fit to see how big the thermal mass box needs to be in order to get the amount of heat needed. Here are a few pictures. We found some really cheap fire brick on line with free shipping. Decided not to go with the Craigslist fire brick because it was the wrong size. At this point, we have to get the thermal mass box built before we can go any further with the shelf construction. Since we are trying to get some freebie stuff, we might be stalled for a bit. Orchid meeting this weekend.


----------



## BigJim

Wow, you have some fantastic flowers, they are beautiful, the photos are clear as a bell also. Thanks for sharing, I would be proud of those.

I am watching with interest of your RMH build. Years back I was into the Mother Earth News concept of different ways to heat your home and live off the grid. I still find it fascinating that other ways keep coming to light, I love to learn new things.

Being an ole farm boy who was raised living off the grid, I appreciate some of the new and better ways of doing some things and the RMH is right up there from what I see.

Just a quick question, would it be more efficient if you had some Styrofoam insulation between the outside wall and the heater? Just thinking it may throw the heat back into the room instead of the outside wall, may cause sweat also that close to the outside wall. I am just thinking out loud, haven't really given it a lot of thought.


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## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> Wow, you have some fantastic flowers, they are beautiful, the photos are clear as a bell also. Thanks for sharing, I would be proud of those.
> 
> Just a quick question, would it be more efficient if you had some Styrofoam insulation between the outside wall and the heater? Just thinking it may throw the heat back into the room instead of the outside wall, may cause sweat also that close to the outside wall. I am just thinking out loud, haven't really given it a lot of thought.


Thanks! :thumbup:

For the insulation, we will be putting fire retardant something or other in the corner where the RMH barrels are for sure. It gets really hot (there have been reports of up to 800 degrees - see Zero Fossil's RH on YouTube) and will have to have something otherwise it will melt the poly panels and burn the GH to the ground. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psGFkFkKv8o

Zero's rocket stove doesn't have the thermal mass, but his RS is the exact dimension of our barrel so we are following his basic design. Plus he has done a lot of testing and has been detailed in his planning and safety.

Of course, in the GH we cannot cover too many of the panels because it will limit the light, but it might be worthwhile to add your insulation idea behind the thermal mass box. Also recommended is a bubble wrap on the outside of the GH during the winter. 

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## BigJim

Thanks for the link, that is some good stuff.


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## shadytrake

Went to the local antique mall today and found this lovely piece of reclaimed barn cedar. This will become my new potting table. It will be 30" tall so that it fits a standard chair. I already have an all weather chair from the old shade house so we will reuse that one. Check out the wood grain on the cedar! It has a coat of mineral oil now. Once that soaks in and dries, I will give it a very light sanding to knock off any splinters. Then it will get several coats of either tung oil or a wax. It is going to be functional and beautiful. $13 was a steal.

I'll have to ask Keith for the expert opinion to bring out the wood grain while making it waterproof.


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## BigJim

If you like old antique wood, there is a place out past Bartlett that has antique Heart Pine and weathered barnwood, if you like I will look up the name and address. America Heart Pine is the name of the place, it is also online.

That is a good looking piece of Aromatic Cedar, that will look great.


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## cocobolo

Hi Melissa:

Well, that's a pretty decent looking board you have there.

It looks as though you have already got the color of the wood to come out pretty well, and that is usually fairly easy to do with cedar. Now I see that Jim calls that aromatic cedar, but it looks to me more like western red cedar, although I may well be wrong. It's hard to tell from your pictures.

It was cut on the old circular style sawmill, which gives it those characteristic curved lines.

It might have been better if you were able to give it a fairly thorough sanding with a random orbital or even a pad sander, and then vacuum the wood to get all the dust off before you did any finishing. It looks like you have got the wood fairly clean anyway.

Now as far as waterproofing goes, that is quite a tall order with cedar, because that particular wood moves so much through the seasons. However, given that this is an old board which has seen many years on a building outside (presumably) just about all the moisture in the wood cell walls should be gone. Once that happens, there will be very little movement left in that board. 

Are you going to have the potting bench inside your greenhouse? If so, then it will be easier to look after. Stick with a flexible finish - such as Tung oil or something similar. My all time favorite with cedar is marine spar varnish, but your wood with the rough surface would not take kindly to that. Varnish needs a very smooth surface to work well.

You will be able to maintain that nice color by giving the wood a good cleaning every year and adding another coat or two of your chosen finish. Whatever you do, once you get started on the finish, stick with the same one. And do the front, back, sides and ends.


----------



## shadytrake

Hi Keith, 

Yes, it will be inside the GH. We have killer mosquitoes so I want a nice cool place to work in the summer away from the attackers. 

Here is the top post sanding, vacuuming and with one coat of Tung oil.


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## cocobolo

Melissa, it looks like there are some black areas in your wood. It could be from a number of things, but whatever they are you don't want them.

We both jumped the gun on finishing and I wish I had seen those marks first. I'm going to suggest that you try some diluted bleach on a small section to see if you can get most of the black removed. It's pretty hard to second guess what it might be, but I would like you to do one thing. Take a very sharp object, like a heavy duty sewing needle for example, and see how far you can push it into the wood. Then try an area without any black. If the black area is obviously softer, then you have the beginnings of some kind of wood degradation. I won't call it rot, but it may be a long dead fungal growth of some kind. Sure would be easier to diagnose if I was right there.

Jim - when you read this - can you give me your thoughts on this?


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## shadytrake

Thanks, Keith. I'll stick a rug needle in it. The black areas feel hard as a rock to me (like petrified almost). I actually thought they were burn marks from the original saw. I have some bleach so I can clean it this weekend. I'm not really too worried because it was a $13 investment. If it turns out to be a dud, not too big of a deal.


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## BigJim

Keith, if the wood is Red Aromatic Eastern Cedar, just off the top of my head I would say that the dark spots are where the wood has been exposed to the elements to make it look gray like old barn wood siding, when oil is applied it will blacken like that. I could be completely wrong but that is my thoughts. The black I am talking about is in the first picture.


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## cocobolo

Thanks Jim, that could well be what it is. 

Melissa says the wood is still hard, so it isn't going to be rot of any kind. And besides, cedar doesn't usually rot anyway when used as siding. I wonder if it could be staining from metal, i.e. nails? Hard to tell without being right there.


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## shadytrake

How would I know if it is Western or Eastern Cedar? To me, cedar smells the same...love it! It does have that nice cedar chest smell.


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## BigJim

If it has that nice Cedar chest smell it is Aromatic Eastern Red Cedar, the Western Cedar doesn't have that smell. The first 30 minutes working with Aromatic Cedar it smells so good, after that I can't stand the smell.

Some of the black that I see is dried resin, when it dries it is harder than Superman's knee caps.


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## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> If it has that nice Cedar chest smell it is Aromatic Eastern Red Cedar, the Western Cedar doesn't have that smell. The first 30 minutes working with Aromatic Cedar it smells so good, after that I can't stand the smell.
> 
> Some of the black that I see is dried resin, when it dries it is harder than Superman's knee caps.


Jim,

It is resin. It is as hard as a rock! :yes:


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## shadytrake

I decided to do a bit of shopping this evening (actually I would call it hunting). :laughing: I know I said I was going to reuse the sink, but we discovered that it won't fit. So we headed over to the Habitat Re-Store. Score! $10 for a new sink in the box! We were on a roll so we decided to head over to the "not so antique" mall. :whistling2: I was specifically looking for some legs for my new potting table, but I found something even better. A table base for $19! It looks like it was made for my table dimensions! Now all I have to do is to sand the nasty "antique" paint look off and spray it with black Rust-Oleum or Krylon. It has a nice solid feel and the top part is old Formica on a solid wood base. I'll be able to easily attach my top. :thumbup:

We also picked up two more of those cedar boards to make the top for the drop in sink. We haven't found a base for that yet. Will probably check out HD or Lowes this weekend. 

I also ordered the fire brick for the RMH. I found a great deal on line at ATG Stores (a division of Lowes). It ships from Canada (free), but had to pay tax, because Lowes is local. 

We also did some research on the exhaust fan. It seems that the best on line deal for the highest customer rating is the J&D Commercial Shutter Fan from Greenhouse Megastore. The 12" runs $140 and has a CFM rating of 1846 at the highest speed. It is a variable speed so you have to purchase the controller. Also if you want to run it automatically, they have thermostats as well. The total package runs $211 plus $20 shipping. So far, I haven't found any other deal on line that is better. But, we don't have to purchase that right at the moment. It can wait. 

Did a bit of hunting for more brick today, but I was unsuccessful. I'm sure we will find some.


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## shadytrake

Several updates. The trench is done! Wiring and water is buried, tested, and back filled. That was exhausting, but I saved $118 plus tax. 

We have finished adding the new circuit breakers, but they are disconnected as we work on the outlets (safety first). We added a freeze safe outdoor faucet as a supplemental line. This means that I don't have to drag a hose to water my vegetable garden. :thumbsup:

We decided to run the conduit up through the ridgepole to wire the lights and we are going to add a solar powered motion detector light on the outside. Things are really moving along now. We ordered the fire bricks for the RMH and they came tonight. Unfortunately the Mfg didn't package them very well and some were damaged. Luckily ATG (a division of Lowes) has on line chat until 10pm Pacific. They placed a replacement order for the broken ones. Now if the guy would call me back about the bricks for the thermal mass. 

Here are a few pictures.


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## shadytrake

Found brick on Craigslist for 0.10 each. We will start the RMH build this weekend!


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Found brick on Craigslist for 0.10 each. We will start the RMH build this weekend!


At that price...buy all they have! You can always use the extras for another project.


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## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> At that price...buy all they have! You can always use the extras for another project.


We did. 1000 bricks moved in two truckloads. We are exhausted!


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> We did. 1000 bricks moved in two truckloads. We are exhausted!


Oh my goodness!!! That's fantastic!


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## shadytrake

I'm so tired that I'm having trouble typing. LOL.







1000 bricks in two truckloads. Then I got a wild hair and decided to clean the driveway. Hubby is still outside working on the wiring. Now that we have the brick, I can start working on the rocket mass heater. Tomorrow I'm going to lay it out and try to get a working test.









A few pictures.


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## BigJim

That was a great haul, sorry bout that LOL. I know you both are wore out after all that. It will all be worth it though, when you feel the warmth of the heater you will be glad y'all did all that work.


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## shadytrake

Woo Hoo! We got the rocket mass heater clamped together for a basic test. Most of the brick has been cut, but the rain got to us before finishing and we wanted to light it. So, here are a few pictures of the raw J tube. I got video of the first test. We got fire and heat! :thumbup: It is uploading to YouTube. I'll post the link as soon as it is done.


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## shadytrake

And a burn picture!


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## BigJim

Are you pleased with the way it works?


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## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> Are you pleased with the way it works?


Jim, 

For the first test, we are really pleased. It was raining and even then it took off very well and immediately started radiating good heat. Here is the video. :thumbsup: I am sure when we seal it for good, it will work even better.

http://youtu.be/ZRUdL2BLeuA


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## shadytrake

Another link showing a bit more burn.

http://youtu.be/RAPhVMub9i8


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## BigJim

That looks very promising, I am like Keith, I expected to see smoke come back out the feet tube. Thanks for sharing, that is exciting.


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## shadytrake

Test two in progress and going great! We definitely have the design done. More video later.


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## shadytrake

Well we are finally swimming out from the massive rain we had this past week and weekend. Reports are that we got from 6 to 10 inches of rain. My ******* rain gauge shows 10". :laughing: This wheelbarrow was empty on Friday evening and the photo was taken on Sunday morning at 11am when the rain finally stopped.

We have power in the greenhouse! It is off right now while we finish the hookups, but we tested it and it works. We also did extensive testing of the RMH all day on Sunday. I have several videos that are uploading. Basically we discovered that the heat riser (the tall part) needs to be taller in order for the burn chamber to draw. Not to worry, because we were planning on a total height of 40" for the riser. The barrel that will go over the riser will allow the heat to be collected in the thermal mass. 

And just for fun, here is a picture of a baby cantaloupe from the garden.


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## BigJim

We just caught the weather y'all had this weekend, we always get the weather after you do, but most times it isn't as bad when it gets here to Chattanooga.

I do know the higher the chimney the better the draw and sometimes the chimney has to be fairly hot to draw correctly. It still baffles me how the heater will draw up the barrels then back down to a pipe that runs horizontal to the ground, that seems to defy physics but hey, I thought it would smoke back out the fill port too. LOL I wish it were possible to make one of the RMH portable, my little shop is so small already.

We just got our first tomato on the vine this past week, we are watching it like a hawk. Our sage plant has really grown like crazy after setting it out outside. Chicken and dressing with homegrown sage is just fantastic, Judy's dressing is just unreal. Our pepper plant is going nuts, we have so much pepper we are drying it for pepper flakes now.


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## shumakerscott

What are your plans for cleaning it out? I like it so far. Shu


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## shadytrake

shumakerscott said:


> What are your plans for cleaning it out? I like it so far. Shu


Hey Shu,

The feed chamber front bricks will be removable for the burn chamber clean out and there will be a clean out at the barrel attached to the thermal duct. According to our research, this is where the most ash accumulates. We may also have a clean out at the end prior to the exit duct, but not sure yet.

Here is video one of test two. 

http://youtu.be/0tUxgwZiVds


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## shadytrake

And another video of test two.

http://youtu.be/6BVy2k9eAO4


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## shadytrake

More videos

http://youtu.be/7cNGg5bffc4
http://youtu.be/jP5C690KY5w


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## shadytrake

Final videos of test two.

http://youtu.be/ScUluGeYHXU

http://youtu.be/dlvTsGYx5z8


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## cocobolo

Melissa, how big is the cross section of your combustion chamber at the bottom, and the cross section of the riser?


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## shadytrake

Hi Keith,

3 1/2" for the burn chamber and 5 1/2" on the heat riser. The burn chamber has to be the smallest dimension from my reading.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Hi Keith,
> 
> 3 1/2" for the burn chamber and 5 1/2" on the heat riser. The burn chamber has to be the smallest dimension from my reading.


Yes, that is partly right. I thought your burn chamber was either pretty small or your heat riser too large. If you boost the burn chamber so it is much closer to the riser, I think you will get much more draft. The two should be very close in size. Every time I read the book something else always comes to my attention.

It is my understanding that the cross section areas are what counts here. Your csa on the burn chamber is 12.25 square inches. On the riser it is 30.25...that's a huge difference. Try the chamber at 5" by 5"...I think you will find that it works much better. 

You also mention adding more height to the riser. I don't think you will need to do that if you boost the burn chamber size.

One thing I noticed in one of your videos (which I LOVE by the way) is that the board you sat on top of the heat riser didn't catch fire. It only charred. If your burn chamber was close in size to the riser, I think you will find that the heat at the top of the riser will be a LOT hotter. Wood will typically self ignite in a surrounding temperature of just 475º (or so). The riser temp should get up to between 1,200 and 2,000 degrees, so it should have caught that wood on fire easily.


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## shadytrake

Thanks, Keith! I'll have to go back and read more. While the book is good, they could have used a much better editor to assist in arranging pertinent details. I find that a lot of detail is obscured by commentary.

We'll test your suggestion and see if the burn improves. Stay tuned!


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> Thanks, Keith! I'll have to go back and read more. While the book is good, they could have used a much better editor to assist in arranging pertinent details. I find that a lot of detail is obscured by commentary.
> 
> We'll test your suggestion and see if the burn improves. Stay tuned!


Yes, that's very true. As I said, I keep picking up new tidbits every time I read it. I believe there is a reference somewhere to a figure of 5% difference in the size between the burn chamber and the riser. Now, I night have got this off one of the websites and not the book. I think it could be in the RMH section at the permies.com site. I know there's a lot to wade through, and that's why I have been making notes from time to time. 

I'm quite sure your riser is high enough, you just need a bit more combustion space. If you increase that, it only makes sense that your riser will move air through MUCH faster. When I tried the little pocket rocket I could hardly believe how fast that air came racing out of the exhaust.

Are you getting that roaring sound when your fire is burning? It really is quite loud, and you'll definitely know when it is working properly. If you are just getting a mild noise, then that isn't it.


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## shadytrake

Here are the videos of test three. We increased the cross sectional area of the burn chamber and there is definitely an increase in the draw. It is not perfect, but better for sure. The heat coming out of the riser was really intense. I could barely hold the camera close enough to see the side burn. 

The piece of wood we placed over the cross sectional area of the heat riser smoldered and almost caught fire. It would have if I had fueled the fire for a longer period, but it was getting late and I was tired.

We are going to take measurements tomorrow and experiment with some more burns.

http://youtu.be/r1W1xi92Do8

http://youtu.be/UBo5HmpwlKc

http://youtu.be/IGz-bs5-fHI


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## shadytrake

Okay, here are some photos to chew on while I get the final test videos uploaded. This final test was great! The only thing in question is the feed tube size. I think it might be the cause of some of the fire flare, but I'm not exactly certain. At any rate, we are pretty satisfied with the amount of heat once we added the final pieces of fire brick to bring the riser to 31". 

I'm a details gal so here are the specs: 

Burn Chamber: 15.25"
Final Heat riser: 31" (we may increase this to 35" when the other bricks arrive)
Feed Tube cross sectional area: Just under 6"
Heat Riser cross sectional area: Just over 6.5"
Burn Chamber cross sectional area: 6"

We got the heat riser so hot that the piece of wood on top burned and at several points, we had flames rising above the top of the heat riser. That was pretty awesome!:thumbup:


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## shadytrake

And here are a couple of photos of the thermal mass base. I calculate that the base alone will take 247 bricks. So it looks like we will use almost all of the brick to make the mass box. 

I really hope this works! If not, thank goodness that it is easily removed and so far fairly inexpensive.


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## cocobolo

Well, that sounds a lot more like it. You'll have so much heat in there you won't know what to do with it all!


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## shadytrake

These are Test 4 videos.

http://youtu.be/h_wztFp_LOU
http://youtu.be/63q-GRfRRHk
http://youtu.be/AiLB5ytE058
http://youtu.be/un1XLd8mQXE
http://youtu.be/kiS-UDKVjiA
http://youtu.be/Do3BC3QF3vI
http://youtu.be/Do3BC3QF3vI
http://youtu.be/Do3BC3QF3vI


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## jtjordan07

Wow, that looks amazing.


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## cocobolo

Hi Melissa...well, you seem to be getting all the little stuff worked out nicely.

I think that two things will finish this off for you. Once you get some unbroken bricks for the top row that will help. I think that broken row is causing an irregular draft at the top of the riser. Definitely agree with you about the two to one ratio on the burn chamber/riser.

And then I expect you will be adding the insulation around the riser. And on top of that most likely the sloped circular section to let any ash fall back down inside the riser? 

And something else that is occasionally mentioned - and you alluded to your bricks being damp - is that once the moisture goes there will be a noticeable difference in the burn temperature. Once all the water has been purged from the brick, all the heat will then exit the riser instead of some of it being consumed with drying the brick itself.

I really liked that little idea of having the small draft opening at the bottom of the burn chamber. Looking at the video that seemed to work quite well. I did see on one RMH where someone had made a plug to fit such an opening, but it seems to me that your brick idea is about 10 times easier!

I'll be looking forward to seeing what you do with the outer insulation layer...vermiculite/clay enclosed with wire mesh perhaps???

Absolutely fabulous job so far, and a big congratulations from me in making it work this well. :thumbup:


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## shadytrake

These are the last videos from test 4.

http://youtu.be/fJyIkpO3H8Q
http://youtu.be/3Fc6qoj_YV0
http://youtu.be/_XPaRtc_leE
http://youtu.be/rynn5yW74bQ
http://youtu.be/LAXiGHvqJuY


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## shadytrake

Hi Keith and all,

Thanks for the kind words. This is the most fun project that I have done in a long time. 

The plan for inside the barrel at this point:

You see that the dimensions on the outside of the brick corners of the heat riser are right at 10". The plan is to use a 10" HVAC duct and to pack it full. I am not exactly sure of the material yet. There are a lot of options out there. We will definitely slope the top.

The barrel diameter is 14" so that will give us 4" of play to arrange the riser inside. Our plan is to move the heat riser as far back into the corner nearest the exterior walls of the greenhouse as recommended in the book. 

This accomplishes two important things.


This makes that "side" cool and forces the majority of the heat to the opposite "side" (interior of the GH).
It increases the safety by having the cool "side" out. The corners at that point in the GH will be concrete backer board or some other fire-proof material.
We won't have any orchids over there so we won't be using the poly panels except to protect the backer board from the weather.

Originally, we were going to use a 12" duct but I think you will agree that in the research, this leaves only a 2" area and I think it will reduce heating efficiency. We really are trying to avoid using a larger diameter barrel in order to keep the footprint as small as possible. That is the reason that we are going for a taller riser as well. We have more options with height than with diameter.

The other issue that we are trying to work out is the radiant heat from the smaller diameter barrel. For safety, the book recommends the larger diameter barrel to prevent accidental burns to persons. You can see in Zero's rocket heater that the surface area of his gets incredibly hot (800F+). He solved this by putting fins to increase the surface area. 

We haven't worked this out yet, because the cob/clay option is not available in the GH setting because of constant moisture. The fins may be an option, but we would prefer the heat move into the thermal mass for storage rather than radiate into a hot zone. However, if it performs efficiently that radiant heat may be beneficial. Adding the fins would be quite simple and would not take up too much room.


Thoughts?


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## cocobolo

Hi Melissa:

Well, lots of things to consider here, but I think most of them are addressed easily.

Now the first thing is that your diagonal measurement is 10" on the brick, which leaves nothing right at the four corners to insulate. I have a possible suggestion there, and that is to cut the corners of the bricks off at 45º, which would give you at least an inch of space to insulate. That should eliminate hot spots at the corners. A wet saw will do this easily in a matter of minutes. Or a masonry blade in an electric hand saw...but tons of dust with that option!  And much slower.

I agree that with a 14" barrel, the 12" duct would not leave enough room as 1" all around is definitely not adequate. The 10" duct does indeed allow you 2" all around, and as far as I understand from all the latest information that may be borderline as well. If there is any way that you can find a 16", 17" or even 18" barrel, I believe that would help you very considerably.

A bigger barrel would solve the insulation problem and the heat problem that I think the smaller barrel will create.

Now as far as Zero's barrel getting to 800º, when the system is working properly and you have a good fire going, many of the barrels will get red hot on top. So that has to be very likely over 800º, but just as soon as the air exits the top of the barrel and heads down the sides, it cools fairly quickly.

But some of these guys (and gals) are pretty smart and they have that part all figured out already. If you aren't going to use the top of the barrel for cooking, then you can add some sort of insulation to the top to prevent accidents. I have seen a layer of cob put on top of the barrel and I'm sure there are other ideas as you don't want cob in your GH.

And to get the bulk of your heat into the mass - which I think would be your main intent for your purpose, you can build up your mass partly up the sides of the barrel in order to reduce the radiant heat into the greenhouse, and increase the heat into the mass.

Something else I just thought of, and I must admit I haven't seen or heard this mentioned anywhere before, so it may not work at all...but I wonder if you could put your system together using your 14" barrel first. If it gets too hot could you not sit another larger barrel over the top which would act as a sort of heat exchanger. This one wouldn't need to be sealed against the RMH as the smaller barrel would. Effectively, it would be the first part of your duct system after a fashion. I believe it would have the effect of putting more heat into your mass and less into the GH by direct radiation, by virtue of the fact that more of the heat would reach down to the bottom of your 14" barrel in the first place. Am I making any sense to you?


----------



## shadytrake

Hi Keith,

Yes I totally get it. Instead of fins, you are using the barrel to increase the surface area but it is heated by the ambient air radiating off of the smaller barrel. It could also act as a barrier from any water spray. Interesting idea. I'll have to ponder that one.

We are going to keep an eye out for a slightly larger barrel. The ones we got were so cheap that we couldn't pass them up. $15 each.

Interesting ideas. And yes, cutting the corners would be easy to do. Zero had to do that in his design. We have a wet saw so that is no problem at all. The fire brick is actually so soft that I can run the edges on my concrete driveway and smooth out the rough edges. I could probably wear down the corners just by doing that. LOL.


----------



## shadytrake

Here are some photos of the deconstructed J-Tube. This project is so deceiving. The concepts and materials are simple, however there are lots of details that need attention. It doesn't help that both of us are pretty stubborn and one of us (not me) builds projects in his head. 

We had a LONG discussion about the barrel today AFTER we had cut them. That is never a good idea. And he confused me because he does figures in his head while I have to put them on paper. I knew that my number was correct, but he convinced me that I was wrong. My figure was actually correct. :huh:

Tempers flared because hubby had not read the book and had some really weird idea about the barrel placement. I have read the book and have done extensive research on the internet and I tried to explain how his idea went against the physics of the design. :furious: It did not go well. Finally, I pulled the book out and basically read aloud the paragraphs in question and stated that we cannot go off the path on that otherwise we will run into performance issues. 

The good news at the end of the day is that the other cut part of the barrel was the correct size when added to the height of a full barrel. Hubby got the stripper out and I got to work on the paint removal and he went to get dinner. It was a tough day, but I convinced him that my design was proven and will work. No need to reinvent the wheel.


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## cocobolo

Melissa, don't feel bad about hubby not agreeing with you.

Us guys (not ME of course) but most guys NEVER read instructions, or in this case, the book. We think we know it all, but of course we don't. I learned a long time ago that instructions are always written for a reason. A few minutes of reading saves hours of frustration sometimes.

If my memory serves me, I think it is page 28 of the book which gives the important dimensions for the RMH. Then follows two or three pages of describing the importance of those dimensions. Every time I go through that section, I notice something else. One thing is that there are both upper and lower case letters used for the various locations. The upper case are pretty much cast in stone and should not be varied, while the lower case are less important.

The other thing I noticed, is that as you go through the book, you might see statements which appear to contradict each other. That's where I run into trouble trying to get the small details solved.


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## shadytrake

Hi All, 

Okay, the wrong cut in the barrel turned out to be fortuitous. I got to thinking about the heat generation at the top of the riser (thanks, Keith). I asked hubby nicely to notch out the wrong piece so that I could basically build a bottom cross section.

My suspicion was correct. The burn chamber was just too long and we would have had to go up even more to get the draw based on the cross sectional area and it was just too risky. I don't want the heat riser to get so close to the roof that we have to remove a poly panel and replace with a fireproof backer.

So after reading and looking at a ton of photos from the permies site, the book, and other websites, I did a mockup inside the barrel bottom. I reduced the burn chamber to 14" and rebuilt the heat riser to 28". I clamped it together and while hubby trimmed all of the trees overlooking the GH, I prepped it for a quick test.

It took about 30 seconds to light. The rocket basically went off like a bat out of hell. It was so strong that it sucked the balled up newspaper right through the tube and I went chasing it to stomp it out. THAT was fun, NOT!

The heat riser immediately got so intensely hot that I could not video because I was standing by with a water hose. FYI, it is not a good idea to test on a really windy day near your yard mulch. But, it is necessary to test "in situ" per the book so you can get an idea of the performance. 

Once the sun dips lower, I'll take some photos of the setup and post the exact measurements. We will go with this setup as it has a nice small footprint and the feed tube is still big enough to handle the fuel without blow back. There was NO blow back today and the only smoke was going up the heat riser (because of the extreme wind).

What was slightly disappointing is that our fire brick is poorly made. I purchased it from ATG (division of Lowes) and it seems that it cannot withstand the heat without becoming brittle and cracking. That is a big bummer, because fire brick is kind of difficult to find down here where it doesn't get that cold. I'm thinking that I'll have to break down and go to a fireplace shop (it will cost a ton). I'm going to research to see if adding the clay slip will retard cracking.

I won't video this final design until we are ready for install. Suffice it to say that it was a roaring success. So glad that I didn't have a visit from the fire department.

Photos later. Tonight we will lay more brick for the thermal mass.


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## cocobolo

Congratulations Melissa! Now it sounds like you have had the real "rocket" experience. Quite something, isn't it?

For what it's worth, just about every firebrick I have ever seen (the insulated type) have been quite brittle. When you assemble the riser in place using the appropriate mortar, they should be OK. I can't remember if there's a section in the book covering that, but I think there is. If not, then it's on the permies site somewhere. Or one of the people mentioned in the back of the book will have it on their websites.

I know it's a pain to track all this stuff down, but it's one of those things that once you get it done, you'll remember it forever.

Fantastic job! :thumbup:

P.S. My local fireplace shop is actually the cheapest source of firebrick in Nanaimo.


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## shadytrake

We did a few miscellaneous projects this weekend. Scored an awesome old sewing table (cheap) to use as the sink base. It already had the machine removed so all I had to do was to get the jigsaw out and cut the opening. I did this project by myself with no help from hubby.

After finishing the cuts, I realized that the person who decided to chalk paint it did so over the varnish. Well, we all know that won't stick. No biggie because I didn't plan on keeping the blue anyway. I sanded it down and primed it with Rust Oleum and the first coat of a rubbed bronze color. I decided to go ahead and sand and paint the potting bench base as well. 

Then hubby got to work on the thermal mass. It is coming together. Also included a single picture of the smaller footprint rocket mass heater. It was dark so I'll post a better picture later.

Today we got the first big harvest from the garden. Lots of tomatoes, our first bell pepper, and cilantro. We had some big salads for lunch. It was a good weekend.


----------



## BigJim

Wow, that is nice, you did a great job on your sink cabinet. I like using old furniture for sinks, it just looks nice and is functional as well.

We have gotten much much pepper from our plant this year, so much I strung some up to dry outside. We have several more blooms on our tomato plant and one blame tomato about half ready to pick. I know when we pick that one others will put on quick. The soil here in East Tennessee is a lot different than West Tennessee, vegetables don't grow as well here. The sage is growing like crazy though.

Glad to see your RMH coming along so nicely, looks good.


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## shadytrake

Lots of projects to complete during my vacation! I have off until August 4 so I am going to be a busy beaver. :thumbup:

I have finished my sink project for the GH. I put the sink and drain in today so it is ready to install in the GH. 

I asked hubby to show me how to use the biscuit joiner so I can be involved in making the top for my potting bench. Here are some photos. I did most of the work with just a bit of help with the wood clamps. I hope to finish the bench tomorrow. :yes:

Found some refractory cement and the replacement bricks came in on Wednesday. Time to put the stove together. Will probably start working on that this weekend. 

Also found some great outdoor lights on ebay for CHEAP! Much nicer than the ugly outdoor security lights. These are going to look great. 

http://www.canlet.com/parmate.php

Got a rain shower today and found out that the thermal mass base is water tight (that is a good thing). Bailed out the water and put the fan on it so that we can lay the next rows tomorrow.

So much to do!


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## cocobolo

Good for you Melissa, well done on the biscuit joinery.

Oh, by the way...you dropped one on the floor...tsk tsk. :laughing:


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## shadytrake

Forget hot yoga. Lay brick in 95 degree heat.


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## shadytrake

I'm almost done with the brick for the thermal mass. Hubby discovered the perks of actually teaching me to do something new. I asked him to show me how to lay brick and I guess he was really sick of that part of the project so he did. :whistling2::laughing:

I got right down to work and almost finished the brickwork for the thermal mass. I'd give myself a C. I did pretty well with a few mistakes. The nice thing is that the mass box doesn't have to be perfect so this is a perfect way to learn. :thumbsup:

Today's plan if the weather holds is to finish laying the brick. Last night hubby got to work on the wiring and got the lights finished!


----------



## BigJim

Looks like you are doing a really good job on the brick, I don't see how it could be any better. Hopefully the weather will hold up for you, I see we all are fixin to catch it.


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## shadytrake

Foiled by the rain and HAIL! The day started out hot and sunny so I was ready with my bucket of ice and refreshments. I got as much brick done as I could before the skies opened up. Only one row left. Paul and I got caught in the storm and had to take shelter in the shade house. So here are some snaps of the lovely orchids who will love their new GH when it is completed.

:thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Took advantage of this beautiful weather we are having and got the brickwork done today! Tomorrow we start to build the rocket mass heater and the frame to hold the swamp cooler. We might even start on the shelving. :thumbsup:


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## cocobolo

Wow! I'm really impressed by your brick efforts Melissa, sure looks good to me from here. :thumbsup: 

And I always love looking at pics of orchids. There's nothing else quite like them. Yours are beautiful.


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## shadytrake

We are starting to get into the fun stuff for the greenhouse! The customized upgrades that make all of the sweat equity worthwhile. 

Yesterday we installed the swamp cooler. After all of the other hard labor, we were happily surprised that it was easy to install and started to crank out cool humidified air immediately. 

I spruced up around the back of the GH just to make it easier to walk around. Gravel is so much nicer than mud when it rains. 

Today is a bit of a rest day from labor. Hubby is helping our neighbor change his brakes. I'm thinking that I will pull out the orchids and check for bugs. It is always good to do that every now and again.


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## shadytrake

A few photos from today. I think the orchids want me to finish the GH. A few escaped the shade house and are drooling over the new digs. :whistling2:


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## shadytrake

Electrical is complete except for the exhaust fan, which we haven't ordered yet. Rocket mass heater is halfway complete. I'll take photos tomorrow, but we have the duct together with screws and refractory cement (that we got free!)

Hubby is practicing with the welder, because it has been years since he did that. 

Tomorrow we build the heater and if all goes well, will use the refractory cement to put it together.

You might wonder why we are putting so much effort into this off the grid heater rather than just plugging in an electric. The photo represents the carnage caused by the theft of our heater this past winter. We lost 1/4 of our collection. :furious:

On a nicer note, here are some of my garden photos. We are really enjoying the fresh produce.


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## shadytrake

Okay so it is a good thing that I have been keeping this project up to date, because we knocked over the mock up and disassembled it before I took photos. But I had kept notes here so I can reconstruct the heater burn chamber and riser.

Hubby taught me how to use the tile saw and I made all of the corner cuts. Not too bad.

I'm re-doing the final mockup before we mix the cement. Fingers crossed!


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## shadytrake

We are at the point where everything is about the detail and it is painstakingly slow!

Tons of photos. We cut the holes in the barrel with 14 gauge swivel head electric metal shears. Then we had to get the duct installed. We put down a layer of fire brick with refractory cement as a base under the barrel bottom.

Then we put up the cement dura-rock. We had to stop as it got too late to make the final cuts for the dura-rock and we didn't want to disturb the neighbors.


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## shadytrake

And more photos from the assembly.


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## shadytrake

And still more photos.


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## shadytrake

Today we got the load of pea gravel that we will use for the thermal mass. I also started to build the heater with refractory cement. It is coming together.


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## shadytrake

I'd like to pat myself on the back as I've never used refractory cement before and I think the heat riser looks pretty darn good. :thumbsup:

The rocket mass heater will be ready to test as soon as the cement cures. Lots of photos.


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## shadytrake

More photos of the build.


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## cocobolo

Looking pretty darn good there Melissa. I bet you can't wait for the big fire up. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Videos of the finished heat riser. Tomorrow we will put on the insulation tube and the barrel.

We got excellent temperatures.

http://youtu.be/xZuliqXkdRk
http://youtu.be/TwVylqxKyPE
http://youtu.be/xMDT9sZvz5M
http://youtu.be/qB5QlxBd6fE
http://youtu.be/MLuinF89nmI


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## shadytrake

Insulation tube completed and thermal mass fill is done. We will seal it tomorrow with concrete. Then all that is left are the barrel welds and the clean out access panel.


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## BigJim

Wow, that is impressive, you flat out did your homework (pardon the pun there)  You have done a really good job, I would be proud of that for sure. It is interesting how it works, I would think the smoke would come back out the short feed chamber, but you proved it don't.


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## shadytrake

Thermal mass DONE!! :thumbup: Tomorrow we build the shelves. Orchids may be moving in this weekend. :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

My hubby has some mad skills! Here is what he did today!

Tomorrow we install the exhaust fan and possibly start the panels! Home stretch! :thumbsup:


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## shadytrake

Here are some pictures from the garden. Baby cantaloupes and dragon cayenne peppers.


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## shadytrake

Oh the DETAILS!!! I spent the day installing custom items. Where do I start?

I ran all of the 1/2" PVC for the faucets and my foggers. I only have one fogger assembly so far as I wanted to test it. But, I anticipated that I would like them so I planned for four total so they are just capped at the moment. They work pretty well, but I did have a few drips. It is still a work in progress. Total cost was $25 including the fogger assembly. 

The next custom item came to me while I was at a horse show. The wash rack had an overhead boom system to keep the horses from stepping on the hoses. One of the things that annoys the heck out of me is the hose on the floor. I didn't want to pay $80 for a boom kit either, so I made my own. Total cost $25. Not too bad and even if the hose is left hanging, it does not pile up on the floor.

Then I had to devise a drain for the sink as ours cannot take a standard sink tail. I ended up having to use a myriad of parts to get it to work. Six total trips to Lowes!! Total cost $9.

I completed these custom items by myself. :thumbup: Hubby spent the day cussing over the instructions for the exhaust fan and putting silicone on the panels. TIP - having the panels taped or clamped together makes siliconing quick and easy.

Photos!


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## shadytrake

more photos


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## BigJim

Wow, y'all have been busy, looking good.


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## shadytrake

The greenhouse is done! We won't test run the RMH again until the fall, but here are the pictures of our finished project.


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## shadytrake

And more photos of the completed project.


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## shadytrake

And the final picture of the exterior.:thumbup:


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## cocobolo

WOW! Very, very impressive!


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## BigJim

That is really nice, that was a lot of hard work and it shows, very impressive.


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## shadytrake

And a few lovely orchids enjoying the new digs.


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## BigJim

Absolutely beautiful, they must be enjoying their new home.


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## shadytrake

As promised, here is the breakdown of our costs. We did extensive customization to our GH for the orchids. The planned budget was ~$2500 and we went slightly over at $2924.24 (partially because we had to purchase some specialized tools).

Large Items:
HFGH 10'x12' kit with super coupon on sale - $603.05
Evaporative Cooler - $370.36
Exhaust Fan/Var Speed control/30% shade cloth - $290
50% shade cloth - $123.67
Firebrick - $127.55
Brick - $100
Safetylite concrete load - $70
Weather stripping - $60
Canlet lights - $34.65
Pea Gravel load - $30
Barrels - $30
Sink base - $30
Rocket Mass Book - $26.50
Rocket Mass plans - $20

Tools we had to purchase - $224.64 (metal shears, welder, grinder, hand tools for digging)
Tool Rental - $49.27 (Roto Hammer Drill)

Construction/plumbing/electrical materials - $734.55

Items we already had or scored for free
Refractory Cement 5 gallon bucket - free (if you had to purchase $75)
Romex Wire 200' - already had
Orbit Mister timer and system - already had
Various hoses - already had
Bread Tray shelves - already had
2 wire shelves - already had
1 x 4' T5 light - already had
1 x 4' T8 light - already had
Outlets and switch - already had
2 wire racks - free
curb alert brick urbanite - free

Considering that pro greenhouses start at $2K excluding labor/electrical/plumbing/heating/cooling, I think we did very well.

Edit to add: $3 for Schlage door handles from the Habitat Re-Store. Hubby had some nice oak that he custom cut with his router table, then polyurethane for waterproofing.

Then he found some screen in the attic and cut some custom drain screens for the watering system (after I clogged it with bark).

Total: $2927.24


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## shadytrake

And some pics of orchids enjoying the GH.


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## cocobolo

Considering what you have there Melissa, that's a real bargain.

Love those orchids! :thumbup:


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## shadytrake

Hi Everyone! Been awhile since I posted. We have been enjoying the GH so much this summer. Now the fall weather is upon us and tonight is going to 33F.

So time to fire up the RMH! We scored some free wood that a neighborhood had stacked for city removal. Fired up the rocket mass heater today and it is happily burning away.

Right now it is 44F outside and the GH is 58F with humidity at 75%. We are running it pretty low so that we don't cook anything at night. We have a 12QT pot on the barrel filled 3/4 with water and it is steaming away. 

The top of the RMH barrel is 300F. Hoping that the thermal mass is storing the heat. Going to set the alarm clock to check it every 2 hours tonight just to make sure since it is dropping to 33F.

Looking forward to a LOT lower utility bills this winter.

Also, here are a few photos of the nice orchids that have been blooming lately!


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## shadytrake

A few more blooms to enjoy!


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## BigJim

Wow, absolutely beautiful, hope the heater works great for y'all, it is a light snow on this end of the state.


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## cocobolo

There's always something just so very special about orchids, and yours are really gorgeous. :thumbup:

I have my fingers crossed for you that your RMH will do the trick. It's going to take a little time for the mass part to heat up anyway, so I doubt that you will need to do much except wait until tomorrow.

But please let us know how it managed on it's first night of operation.


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## shadytrake

Hubby had to get up 3 times to restock the fire with wood, and it is running as well as expected with some of the green wood. We didn't have a lot of time to be picky and we got as much dry wood as possible. Today we will split some of the larger logs to find the cured wood. 

I got up at 5:45 this am and went out to check it. Embers were still burning and the mass was about 65F (not too bad for a cold night on the first run). The backup heater had kicked on and the GH temp was 55F. I stoked the fire and put some 2x4 pine in it to really kick it on. Temps are up to 57F already.

The main chore today is to go back to that neighborhood stack and score a bunch of kindling. That is what really starts it fast. Newspaper is good, but the best starter is dried kindling. I would give this first "real world" test a B. The mass really needed to be warmer so that the RMH will draw faster. But that can only come with burning and priming and we can't burn it when it is warm outside.


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## cocobolo

I can't remember if you have the bible by Ianto Evans, I seem to think you have.

The RMH burns best on very tiny kindling, dried red cedar being about the best. I think once you get the mass up to some kind of decent temperature that a short firing once a day should do the trick. By short, I mean maybe 2 - 3 hours.


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## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> Hubby had to get up 3 times to restock the fire with wood, and it is running as well as expected with some of the green wood. We didn't have a lot of time to be picky and we got as much dry wood as possible. Today we will split some of the larger logs to find the cured wood.
> 
> I got up at 5:45 this am and went out to check it. Embers were still burning and the mass was about 65F (not too bad for a cold night on the first run). The backup heater had kicked on and the GH temp was 55F. I stoked the fire and put some 2x4 pine in it to really kick it on. Temps are up to 57F already.
> 
> The main chore today is to go back to that neighborhood stack and score a bunch of kindling. That is what really starts it fast. Newspaper is good, but the best starter is dried kindling. I would give this first "real world" test a B. The mass really needed to be warmer so that the RMH will draw faster. But that can only come with burning and priming and we can't burn it when it is warm outside.


Rip some small strips 4 or 5 foot long and let them self feed, might have to make a wire rack to keep them straight up. Might not work but it is a thought.


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## cocobolo

BigJim said:


> Rip some small strips 4 or 5 foot long and let them self feed, might have to make a wire rack to keep them straight up. Might not work but it is a thought.


Hi Jim:
That's one of the things covered in the book. But they do suggest that the lengths not be any longer than your feed tube. Reason for that being if one piece gets hung up, it can burn up from the bottom and then fall out of the tube. So, usually 18" - 24" should work. It all depends on how long Melissa's feed tube is.


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## BigJim

cocobolo said:


> Hi Jim:
> That's one of the things covered in the book. But they do suggest that the lengths not be any longer than your feed tube. Reason for that being if one piece gets hung up, it can burn up from the bottom and then fall out of the tube. So, usually 18" - 24" should work. It all depends on how long Melissa's feed tube is.


Good point, I hadn't given it that much though to foresee that. That would be the pits having to get up all hours of the night to stoke the fire.


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## cocobolo

BigJim said:


> Good point, I hadn't given it that much though to foresee that. That would be the pits having to get up all hours of the night to stoke the fire.


Jim, you just hit on one of the strong points of an RMH. And that is that you actually shouldn't need to get up at all hours to feed the fire.

Once the mass is hot, the fire can burn right out to nothing and the residual heat in the mass will take over and gently let the heat out all night long.

It may take two or three days to get the entire mass hot enough to do the job, but once it's there, just one firing a day will keep it warm.


----------



## shadytrake

cocobolo said:


> Jim, you just hit on one of the strong points of an RMH. And that is that you actually shouldn't need to get up at all hours to feed the fire.
> 
> Once the mass is hot, the fire can burn right out to nothing and the residual heat in the mass will take over and gently let the heat out all night long.
> 
> It may take two or three days to get the entire mass hot enough to do the job, but once it's there, just one firing a day will keep it warm.


Exactly! And that is what we did all day today. Got the barrel to 560F and the thermal mass is reading 84F on the east side and 72F on the west side. We are burning it as hot as we dare to build up the thermal mass heat for tonight. Hubby just went to restock the feed tube to bring the barrel temps back up to at least 400F. That seems to be the optimum heat for thermal mass storage without drying out the orchids. 

I also had to go through and mist everything so that I can keep the humidity up. Readings right now 74F and 75% humidity. :thumbup:


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## shadytrake

A few pictures!


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## cocobolo

That's right...I forgot about the humidity you would need for the orchids.

I guess it's going to be a balancing act for you until you get it just perfect.


----------



## shadytrake

I give last night's test an A! Paul only had to restock the feed tube twice and I got up at 5:45am to check temps and the GH was at 55F. I went out to restock it at 6am and the backup electric heater came on as I was lighting the wood. YAY! A whole night of electricity SAVED!

Thermal mass was WARM at 90F so it was helping the ambient temperature to remain steady. AND the humidity is 62% and rising because of the condensation on the panels. I checked the drip points and they are dripping right into the walkways with only a couple of points hitting orchid leaves. SUCCESS!!


----------



## BigJim

Wow, that is impressive, it is a shame green houses can't be thermal pane walls and ceiling instead of single, sure would be a lot easier to heat and cool but probable to expensive to build. I wonder if you could build another green house over that green house and use that trapped air as an insulator. Sorry, just thinking out loud here.

The heater is very tempting to build but insurance pretty well blows that down the tubes for us.


----------



## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> Wow, that is impressive, it is a shame green houses can't be thermal pane walls and ceiling instead of single, sure would be a lot easier to heat and cool but probable to expensive to build. I wonder if you could build another green house over that green house and use that trapped air as an insulator. Sorry, just thinking out loud here.


Eventually as these panels wear out, we will try to replace them with the more expensive fancy GH panels that have a better R value. That will definitely help a LOT! But they run about $40 per panel so not in the budget at the moment. Probably we will replace them one at a time so it doesn't seem like a lot of $.:yes:


----------



## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> Eventually as these panels wear out, we will try to replace them with the more expensive fancy GH panels that have a better R value. That will definitely help a LOT! But they run about $40 per panel so not in the budget at the moment. Probably we will replace them one at a time so it doesn't seem like a lot of $.:yes:


I see what you mean, that could be costly. Maybe buy one at a time, wouldn't seem so bad.


----------



## cocobolo

BigJim said:


> Wow, that is impressive, it is a shame green houses can't be thermal pane walls and ceiling instead of single, sure would be a lot easier to heat and cool but probable to expensive to build. I wonder if you could build another green house over that green house and use that trapped air as an insulator. Sorry, just thinking out loud here.
> 
> The heater is very tempting to build but insurance pretty well blows that down the tubes for us.


The only place Jim that I am aware of that has built a permit approved RMH is in Oregon. Hopefully, at some time in the not too distant future, this will change. However, you can build one OUTSIDE your house and funnel the heat inside. And you can use the outside one as a pizza oven!

There is one thing that can be done now to help with both overnight heat loss and daytime heat gain, and that is to make up panels just using lightweight 1 x 1's as a framework and attaching bubble wrap. Alternately, you could use agricultural grade poly which would last much longer.


----------



## shadytrake

Did not have to restock the last night. So it seems if the temperature remains in the 40s, the thermal mass can handle the ambient temperature as long as the mass is at 90 at 10pm. I just checked temp at 6:15 and it is 54F and the electric heater has kicked on. We slept through the night only waking up a couple of times to check the readout by the bed. What I need to get is a low temp alarm to send a signal to my phone. That is on the want list.


----------



## shadytrake

On a totally different topic, I need to build a taller mounting block because my new mare is really tall.

Even with the 3 step (22.5"), I cannot reach the stirrups. So I've decided that Paul and I will build one. They can't be too hard as basically it is a platform step-stool. 

Any ideas or tips? The plan is to use the prefab stringers from Lowes. It must be sturdy but not too heavy and has to be wood.

Attached are some visual examples that I was able to find. Ideally, it would only be 4 steps and the platform at 34" minimum (36" max).

The stringers have a 6.5" rise and 10" tread so it seems that I would need a 5 step stringer...I'd like to avoid having it that big. Can I make it a bit steeper without being dangerous like block 2? That one seems a bit steep to me.

EDIT to ADD: It would be great if there was a way to design it to be portable (so I can take it to shows if needed).


----------



## shadytrake

So an update on the Rocket Mass Heater for the greenhouse. Today is ash cleanout day. You can see that the efficiency of the burn creates very little ash. Awesome!


----------



## cleanlymaid

shadytrake said:


> I give last night's test an A! Paul only had to restock the feed tube twice and I got up at 5:45am to check temps and the GH was at 55F. I went out to restock it at 6am and the backup electric heater came on as I was lighting the wood. YAY! A whole night of electricity SAVED!
> 
> Thermal mass was WARM at 90F so it was helping the ambient temperature to remain steady. AND the humidity is 62% and rising because of the condensation on the panels. I checked the drip points and they are dripping right into the walkways with only a couple of points hitting orchid leaves. SUCCESS!!


Are you worried about temps getting too high or bacterial or mold growth due to humidity?


----------



## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> On a totally different topic, I need to build a taller mounting block because my new mare is really tall.
> 
> Even with the 3 step (22.5"), I cannot reach the stirrups. So I've decided that Paul and I will build one. They can't be too hard as basically it is a platform step-stool.
> 
> Any ideas or tips? The plan is to use the prefab stringers from Lowes. It must be sturdy but not too heavy and has to be wood.
> 
> Attached are some visual examples that I was able to find. Ideally, it would only be 4 steps and the platform at 34" minimum (36" max).
> 
> The stringers have a 6.5" rise and 10" tread so it seems that I would need a 5 step stringer...I'd like to avoid having it that big. Can I make it a bit steeper without being dangerous like block 2? That one seems a bit steep to me.
> 
> EDIT to ADD: It would be great if there was a way to design it to be portable (so I can take it to shows if needed).


I don't know why your posts didn't show up on my computer until today. Why not just buy a small step ladder, they are light and don't cost much. That must be one tall horse.

From my experience with horses, you need to make the unit where you can take it out of the area where the horses are, they will chew wood all to pieces. I have seen them chew the post on a shed in half. Trying to work around a bunch of horses is a challenge, they won't leave your tools alone.


----------



## shadytrake

cleanlymaid said:


> Are you worried about temps getting too high or bacterial or mold growth due to humidity?


No, because we have fans going and once the temp rises enough outside, we open the doors for ventilation or open the exhaust fan.


----------



## shadytrake

An update on the GH and RMH since we have had the arctic blast deliver winter early this year (we got a dusting of snow). Compared 2 months of utility bills and we have saved $98 over last year already AND we are averaging about 5-10 degrees cooler this year already.

We did invest in 2 x 40lb bags of pellets because the embers burn longer so re-stoking is much quicker and easier. Cost $11. 

We went on a wood hunt yesterday and found a load of discarded indoor framing from a house remodel. That is the BEST wood. It is already dry and it lights FAST. Another trick we learned is that if we place the cut wood on top of the thermal mass, it keeps the wood nice and dry (even with our misting) and the wood helps to distribute the heat from below.

Also, last night we went to the Tigers game so we were gone for 4 hours (it went to overtime). We stoked the fire and departed at 5:45 (temp at 43) and returned home at 9:45 (temp 35). Over that time, the GH temp went from 63 to 54 and the electric back up kicked on right as I opened the door to restart the fire. So we really know the thermal mass is working.


----------



## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> I don't know why your posts didn't show up on my computer until today. Why not just buy a small step ladder, they are light and don't cost much. That must be one tall horse.
> 
> From my experience with horses, you need to make the unit where you can take it out of the area where the horses are, they will chew wood all to pieces. I have seen them chew the post on a shed in half. Trying to work around a bunch of horses is a challenge, they won't leave your tools alone.


Hi Jim,

Unfortunately, the step ladders don't go to that height without a safety rail, which makes mounting impossible. We figured it out using a deck step design and finished it in a couple of hours. It works great!


----------



## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Unfortunately, the step ladders don't go to that height without a safety rail, which makes mounting impossible. We figured it out using a deck step design and finished it in a couple of hours. It works great!


Wow, that has to be one tall horse, I bet it goes 15 hands or better. That is a nice sturdy built stage though, looks good.

We got that Arctic blast on the right hand end of the state last night also but no snow this time as far as I know. I didn't know you could use the pellets in the stove like that.


----------



## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> Wow, that has to be one tall horse, I bet it goes 15 hands or better. That is a nice sturdy built stage though, looks good.
> 
> We got that Arctic blast on the right hand end of the state last night also but no snow this time as far as I know. I didn't know you could use the pellets in the stove like that.


Jim,

17.1 1/2 hh and I am 5'2". So she is 5'7" at the wither!!


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## shadytrake

A few snapshots of Lily.


----------



## landman650

Nice project you've got there....looks like you've been able to do the house yourselves. Takes a lot of patience...keep it up


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## BigJim

That is tall, is she an Arabian?


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## shadytrake

BigJim said:


> That is tall, is she an Arabian?


Hi Jim, 

She's Trakehner. Much taller than Arabians.


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## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> She's Trakehner. Much taller than Arabians.


I haven't heard of that breed, I didn't think an Arabian was that tall, at least the ones I have seen weren't. Beautiful horse!


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## shadytrake

They have an interesting history. 

http://www.trakehners-international.com/history/index.html


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## BigJim

Thanks for the link, that is interesting.


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## Windows on Wash

She is gorgeous!


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## shadytrake

Hi All, 

I have been remiss in posting so I will give some updates. 

First: The rocket mass heater is working GREAT in the Greenhouse. The winter has been extremely hard with 2 ice storms and snow. I know it is not considered a lot for you northerners, but it is more than we have seen in a couple of decades. The RMH has paid for itself in utility savings.

Second: We love the greenhouse. Our orchids are doing much better this season. That project was really worth the effort.

Third: We have decided after much discussion to move to a more rural area to be closer to the barn where I ride and to get away from the city/county property taxes. 

So we have prepared a DIY punch list to get our house ready to go on the market.

This weekend's project is to get the Master Bedroom and the attic properly insulated. I know I should have done this years ago, but it is always a job that we put off. 

The master BR is an exterior addition that was originally supposed to be a workshop. Thankfully it was correctly built and permitted. But the idiot who put up the insulation smashed it flat and stapled it inside the 2x4 instead of fluffing it and stapling the tab over the 2x4. What a dummy. 

The attic is completely devoid of insulation because what little was left from 1952 I carefully removed after we had a raccoon incident. So we are taking advantage of the Home Depot special 10 bags with the free blower rental. We are going to blow in 10 bags tomorrow. 

Hubby and I had a bit of an argument about the center attic "floor." He thinks we need to pull up the boards before blowing. We have 16 years of storage up there. Though not too much stuff, I am NOT moving all that crap down, pulling up 63 yo nailed down flooring, and then moving it all back again. I think adding the blown insulation to the sides and the addition will be more than enough. 

The ROI is not worth the effort to take up the center flooring especially in this neighborhood. It is likely that this house will be purchased by an investor for a rental property (10 min walk from the University of Memphis). If the new owner wants to pull up the boards and add insulation underneath, go for it when the attic is empty.


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## BigJim

I agree, pulling the boards up could easily loosen the sheet rock and cause some more work.


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## Windows on Wash

Even though the home will be yours, air seal thing the top plates shouldn't add that much time to the insulation project and just drilling some selected holes in the storage flooring will allow you to blow insulation in between the spaces.


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## shadytrake

Attic insulation is done! We did the Home Depot special buy 10 bags and get the AttiCat rental free. I picked everything up this morning at 10am and just returned the unit about an hour ago. So total time 4 hours. We did not pull up the boards.

I will say that the whole house is already significantly warmer. Our MBR started at 62*F and it is now 72*F with no thermostat adjustment. WOW!! I should have done this years ago. (kicking myself)

While I think that a real estate agent may think that the insulation is not really a selling point, a potential investor will appreciate some of these updates. In the meantime, we will enjoy lower utility bills.


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## shadytrake

Well, hubby and I have really done some more research and we have decided to keep our house and turn it into a rental property. It is a 10 minute walk to the U of M and financially it makes sense. That being said, the "to do" list got a little longer as we do have to get a CO in order to rent it out and that means doing the finishing details.

One of the things added back to the list is the bathroom overhaul. We knew when I purchased the house that there was an issue with the subfloor under the tub/toilet. We did a temporary fix many years ago by jacking up the cast iron tub and placing block supports and caulking the hell out of it. 

With a renter, we will have to actually do a full repair. 

So here is my question. Can we repair/replace subflooring without removing the cast iron tub? In other words, can we do this from the crawl space? The reason that I ask is that the wall tile is in excellent shape and original to the house. It is that nice white subway tile with the black trim. I would hate to yank out the tub and damage the wall. Also the cast iron tub is in excellent shape too. Nice and large/deep and heavy as all get out. 

We will have to remove the sink and toilet to replace the tile floor as it is damaged.

If we do remove the tub, can we install new subway in the same pattern against the old by just installing/patching any wall issues? I want the house to look nice and not just cheap, because we want to attract a higher end renter.


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## shadytrake

Another question. Anyone know if egress window is required for main floor bathroom in Memphis, TN? We were thinking about bricking it up as the window is an old metal framed and has some issues as it has been in the shower. We have had it covered with double visqueen for years to keep the moisture from doing any more damage. (yes, we have installed a new ventilation fan but the damage was already done by the previous owner)


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## BigJim

Unless things have changed since I contracted in the Memphis area, all you need is a vent fan, a window isn't necessary. I built a house not far from you, on Grandview.


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## shadytrake

Contract season for 2015 is COMPLETE! I am back in the land of the living. A new HVAC unit has been ordered for the house so that is the main project for the spring/summer. 

We have ripped out all of the old paneling in the Master Bedroom and replaced the crappy insulation and installed sheetrock. We are now deciding if double pane windows are worth it. I think so just to reduce sound from the outside. It is only 3 windows.


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## cocobolo

shadytrake said:


> We are now deciding if double pane windows are worth it. I think so just to reduce sound from the outside. It is only 3 windows.


In my opinion, double pane windows are always worth it shady.

It isn't just a matter of sound, but also of both heating gain in hot weather and heat loss in wintertime. You definitely will be happy if you do that. Over a period of time they should pay for themselves.


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## shadytrake

We have found a house that we like so will interview lenders this week. The punch list on the house continues. It is pouring rain today so I imagine we will work inside.

I finished refreshing the curb appeal yesterday. The next step is scaffolding to repair/replace fascia and bargeboard in places. We did the cladding a few years ago so no need to do anything there. 

The new HVAC system is here so we will be studying the Super Cool slide rule to make sure we install it correctly. This is a really helpful tool for the DIYer. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaLzPq_hUpU

On vacation until 7/20 so I imagine we will get a lot done on the list.


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## shadytrake

We FINISHED and sold the house! 

Here are pictures of the two final finished rooms. We found our dream mid-mod home on a 1/2 acre inside the city and we closed on March 31.

:biggrin2:

This project is CLOSED!


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## BigJim

Wow, y'all did a great job, it looks really good. Did y'all find a home further east? Good to see you posting again.


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## shadytrake

We found a house in the Yorkshire neighborhood in East Memphis. It is considered the 3rd best neighborhood in Memphis in our price point (#1 being downtown & #2 being Midtown).

Our old neighborhood got really scary. Crime got out of control. My neighbor across the street was shot.


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## BigJim

shadytrake said:


> We found a house in the Yorkshire neighborhood in East Memphis. It is considered the 3rd best neighborhood in Memphis in our price point (#1 being downtown & #2 being Midtown).
> 
> Our old neighborhood got really scary. Crime got out of control. My neighbor across the street was shot.


Memphis got scary for me several years back. I lived in and around Memphis most of my life and have built houses in Memphis, around Memphis, Chickasaw Gardens, Bartlett, Germantown, Collierville, Eads, Fayette County, Covington, LaGrange, Bolivar, Mississippi, Jackson TN. and other places I can't even remember.LOL

East Memphis has been one of the better parts of Memphis, I know y'all are happy to get away from the area you left. It is a shame Memphis has gotten so bad, I loved Memphis, just too many crazy drivers and crazy people there now.

I was stunned to see the fair grounds gone along with many other places in Memphis.


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