# assumptions made, lazy painter?



## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

wife wanted to hire painter to finish painting house, mostly the interior. shes tired of me working on the house all the time. thats another story altogether....

i had done all the trim throughout, and finished the upstairs, which includes 3 doors. We called out a painter to: finish all the drywall downstairs, prime and paint 6 smooth doors and their door jambs with water based latex paint. We also wanted them to do 2 plain smooth metal exterior doors inside and out, with an oil paint. our exterior is a metal building, so it had metal beams that needed to be painted, i did most, but there was some that needed paint. so they were supposed to do that.

Was I wrong to assume that the painter should have removed all doors and hardware before painting them with out me having to tell him too? Or have washed off all of the exterior metal beams before painting them. I thought all this was common knowledge. Thats just lazy right?

I rolled the paint on the doors i painted with a regular sized roller used on walls with no problems what so ever, no roller marks, no marks period.

They used some kind of 4 inch roller and looks as if they smoked meth because they had roller marks all over the place. They taped off the hinges, then since the roller couldnt get close to the hinge, they painted with a brush.....so we have roller marks mixed with brush marks....and the hinge looks like crap cause the way the paint is half on it half off, and is kind of peeled back from tape removal. They did take the door knobs off the interior doors.

They cut in the drywall with a brush....i have painted 3 houses in my life not counting this one, and more than once....i have never used a brush.....they leave brush marks and looks horrible (i use foam ones, or rollers). So the cut in is all thin. I just always use rollers, cause you just squeeze them in the corners and it cuts in nicely, and it saturates the wall, and matches the rest of the wall, if you squeeze too much out, just roll over it a few times.

So now the exterior doors, they rolled, horrible again, didnt take off any hardware, so its on that too. So since they were rolling it, and didnt take off the hardware, they brushed around the knobs and hinges, with a brush.....that just looks HORRIBLE.

Since they didnt take the doors off, they didnt paint the top edge or bottom. Which you can see when your upstairs on the loft if a door is open.

I clearly talked to the guy, and wrote it out on paper to prime and paint the doors and jambs. Yet it seems as if they didnt use any primer, there were six doors and jambs.....I used half a gallon of primer just on 3 doors and jambs, they used apparently about 1/16th of a gallon, if that.

They knew they were running out of paint, so they "stretched it". they applied it so thin (we have textured drywall) that it looks like they didnt even apply pressure on the roller....so its not even fully covered with one coat, or they dipped it about every 10 feet.

With my experience, i have always made sure its completely covered with one coat, then i add another.....is this not a normal way to do it?

So, they left, told my wife they ran out of paint and had to "stretch it," they can come back and finish, or they will just knock off a couple hundred and it will be good.....

The exterior they clearly used brushes on the beams when i told them to use rollers.....cause now theres just brush marks all in the paint, and where there are brush marks the paint is thin, plus all i painted is rolled and smooth looking.

They did one coat on everything. Am I wrong to assume they should have done two?

They gave my wife an excuse that the paint was cheaper paint and was really watery. It was hard to get it stirred in. I have used this paint on the entire upstairs, with no problem, its premium paint from Lowes, olympic brand. It was a 5 gallon bucket. And i some how get the impression they stirred it with a stick, and not a drill attachment, which is ridiculous, i have like 4 of those, they dont? Plus isnt water based paint....made with water...

Two of our doors are full glass, wood around them. They brushed those. So now, up against my trim that was rolled, it looks completely different cause its brushed.....which isnt that big of a deal to me....

they got paint on 3 window shades, that i have to replace now....very cheap though. I specifically said, and wrote on my list, not to paint the window seals, because they are already done.....they painted like 3, with the shades in, so now at the top of the shade, paint is like pushed in between the shade hanger and the drywall, looks bad.

They are supposed to come out friday to "finish." They said they could take the doors off and spray them, out in our field.....so basically i would getting dirt in the paint rather than roller marks.

Wouldnt they have to sand all these down, or could they really just paint over these and fix it?

Should we just tell them to take a hike.....we havent paid them....but now im screwed if i have to sand ****.

I thought it was at least fair to let them try to fix it..... Am I being to easy on them by letting them try to fix it ?

Im tired of typing about this...


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

In most states by law a contractor is entitled to be paid for the value of the services performened. Another coat of paint should help fix the problem. It is common to cut drywall in with a brush, as long as you keep a wet edge and use quality paint there will be no brush marks. Half a gallon of primer for three doors sounds like a lot of primer. Its common to cut around door hardwear with a brush and if your using quality paint and are experienced there will be no brush marks. I have literally painted 100s of metal doors, commercial and resedential, with no brush marks, so it can be done. An experienced painter should be able to paint doors while they are hung with out using tape and without getting paint on the hard wear. I rarely ever propose to take doors off of the hinges, unless the client wants to pay for the extra labor involved. If your painter was suppose to remove the doors it should have been outlined in the contract between them and you. If you had a contract? A reputable company will have a contract with everything clearly outlined. Sounds like you may have hired a painter based solely on price and not on the over all value that a painting company would give you. If the painting contractor is leaving roller marks all over your doors and hard wear he sounds like a fly by night. I would have used a DTM acrylic latex on the doors and not an oil base.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

There's a lot to dissect there.

Firstly, it sounds to me like you happened across some hacks, especially if you made specific requests on certain things. Their conscientiousness and work habits aside, many of your gripes are standard procedure. 

Cutting walls with a brush, not removing doors (however, painting the tops if seen from above is correct, most guys don't think that deeply), cutting in hinge hardware when rolling doors, etc. 

It sounds to me like you take a lot of pride in your work, and no one else will match that, and the way you do things may lie outside of what is generally accepted in the trade.

I can imagine what it looks like, I've seen it before. But, without seeing it, I can't tell what are their shortcomings or your unrealized expectations. Much of what you are asking relate to what should have been set forth in the initial meeting and proposal, such as the # of coats. 

Also, an attentive contractor would have tried to match the textures more closely to what you applied. All that said, and no slight intended, I think that the largest problem lies in your approach to hiring them. The approach should have been to request three estimates, and explaining what and how you want the job to look to each.

It's good to ask for estimates that will allow you to compare apples to apples. With exceptions, it's wise to toss the lowest of the bids. Choose between the remaining two based on your perception of the contractor, ie, is he/she someone you can work with. It's better to pay a higher price than have a grumpy, unyielding contractor when things go wrong, which they invariably do. I fear that you shopped this job based on price alone, and that's where you went wrong. If that's the case, don't feel bad, you're not alone.

Going forward, I suggest you explain to them what you think and see how they can make it more up to your standards, let them finish, and customize it yourself afterwards. Sorry if this wasn't what you expected, but your story is *so typical *that it almost has it's own page in the legitimate contractor's handbook. Good Luck.


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

Is Olympic paint or anything at all from a Big Box considered good paint amongst professionals? It seems on this site and contractor talk just about every paint gets slammed by pros except SW and BM.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

beerdog said:


> Is Olympic paint or anything at all from a Big Box considered good paint amongst professionals? It seems on this site and contractor talk just about every paint gets slammed by pros except SW and BM.


 
no

there is a reason for that


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

That could explain the "watery pain comments, but not all the problems.


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

One more questions for J.A.

-Should the painters have said they were running out of paint and given the HO a chance to get more?


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Sounds to me like another chapter in the, "*Not All 'Professionals' Are Good At What They Do*," book.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

The post is clear. Th HO hired a contractor based on the lowest estimate and got exactly what he is paying for. Using cheap paint does not help the matter and then, as the HO states he is telling the painters how to do there job, wanting to be the superintendent of the job. A professional painting company knows how to complete the project at hand, does not need to be told how, and would not have used cheap olympic paint. Personally if I was giving the HO a proposal regarding the work and he said he wanted me to use olympic paint I would have declined giving an estimate.


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## Windows (Feb 22, 2010)

Lazy painters for sure, and also a laziness on the part of the homeowner in doing their due diligence to ensure that they hired someone professional and trustworthy. Also, if you have very particular requirements or expectations, let them be known to the contractor at the outset so he knows to meet them, and so he can price them into his estimate.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

well to clear a few things up...

I have never hired a painter before. I clearly wrote a 2 page bulleted paper with what they should have done. I did have assumptions, and i guess i can take the hit on that one. He clearly asked me what I used when I painted, tool wise, I told him. 

Price was no issue whatsoever, i wanted it done, and done right....I do not ever base anything on price, i would never choose the cheapest price.

I live far away, from anywhere, and some people didn't even show up to bid or kept moving the bid to another day.

When i asked them to paint things, i expected them to paint them. I asked to paint the doors and jambs....not not paint parts of them. You can clearly see behind hinges raw wood, and around and in the latch hole, raw wood.

Yes, i could have had plenty of paint delivered personally to them at my house if they asked....or let me know. I bought all the paint they said i needed, plus more.

I may have exaggerated on how much primer i had used before.....but they clearly didnt use enough, if any at all. And of course i was getting aggravated typing up the thread, so some statements i said concerning how they shouldnt have used brushes to cut in and stuff was over the top....cause i know its typical. (theres just a better way to do it)

And yes, if they did it right, and I couldn't tell, i could give a crap less how they did it.

I painted a wall upstairs with only one coat of the same paint myself......not one streak, fully covered. They clearly rushed it.

The exterior doors are just a joke, because they didnt take the knobs off, and swiped a brush around them......it looks like swirls around the knob. Plus stuff stuck all in the paint, and they let the doors close and the edges look like crap. (probably what really made us upset the most)

Is painting over dirt a typical approach to painting.....If i ask you to paint something that is sort of dirty because its a part on the exterior....would you clean it off, paint over it, or at least ask me if your supposed to clean it before hand.....or tell me ahead of time to clean it.

Having something painted, is having it painted....covered. Nothing is covered completely. Its see through. If he told me in the beginning the price would be doubled for two coats or something. i would have agreed. But anything to do with payment is to be argued after the second attempt. 

I have yet to give a bad attitude, and my wife and i have stayed calm when talking to them.

I am contemplating just telling them to finish the drywall, and exterior parts, and ill fix and finish the doors. Would that be weird to tell them, and could there be a deduction there in price...

How would i approach the problem with them painting on 3 window shades? Do i just need to buy them (they are seriously less than 20 bucks each and add in what Lowes would charge to install them, and tell them they need to deduct that from the final payment?? I dont know how to approach that.


I would honestly have them do a second attempt, pay them, and get them out of my life....


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

Too bad for the OP. I feel bad for them!

If the OP had knowledge of FPE's ECO-Waterborne, or Eurolux-Satin or Gloss, they'd be DROOLING over their doors! Assuming a good painter did the "due-diligence" prep.
No, the paint ain't cheap.

The results...I'M hooked on it!
(and we don't sell it...I have nothing to do with them)

I have to paint some entry-door casings soon. GUESS what I'm using...

Faron


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Dosnt sound like you had a contract. A 2 page list of things to paint isn't a contract. That should have been a sign when the contractor didn't present you a clearly outlined contract, including what was going to be painted and the number of coats. If the contractor damaged your blinds he should pay for them. I'm sure he has insurance, which would cover damage to your property. Painting inside of the door where the hardwear goes is a little extreme and so isn't painting behind the hinges, especially when a lot of painters don't remove the doors to paint how could you paint behind the hinges.


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

Pretzels....sounds like ya got whacked by some hacks.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Give them a chance to fix it. Honestly, most products look like crap with one coat. If you want to paint the doors yourself, tell them. 


From what it sounds like, these guys are commercial painters. Not custom home painters. What is acceptable in the commercial world, doesnt fly on the residential side. With the economy being the way that it is, commercial guys are branching into residential and vice versa to try and stay alive. Its rough out there for these guys. Im not making excuses, just trying to give the other sides point of view. You say that nobody came to bid. Well, you said that 1, you live far away. Thats probably a big turn off for most guys. Giving a free estimate when the vast majority of their calls are just "tire kickers". Gas is expensive, and those free estimates cost their company time and money, not to mention their closing rates are lower as well as overall pricing.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

by the way....

The paint for the doors and exterior is sherwin williams paint that is over 50 bucks a gallon.....its the most expensive crap they sell. sher khem or whatever its called, industrial paints.


only the drywall paint is OLYMPIC Premium low voc paint.

I am not talking about where the hardware goes. Im talking about they apparently could not fit whatever tool they were using around the hinge to cover the area around it. So with the hardware installed, theres raw unpainted stuff showing.

The paint is clearly peeling off because they let the paint dry around the hinge before they removed it.

How am i supposed to know that your supposed to have a contract with a painter.......i thought they just painted things you asked them too.....i called 'professionals' from a phone book. I looked up reveiews for everyone, none of the companies existed online.....no body within 100 miles of me knows what the internet is.

the reason i had a list was not to be EXTREME.

I had painted lots of stuff in the house, i did not want them to repaint things, so i clearly stated what should and shouldnt be painted.....i did not tell them how to do it on the list i gave them.. The painter asked what tools i used while going over everything, he acknowledged....

I totally thought i could trust them. so i didnt want to be all picky when talking to them or on the list cause i know that doesnt go over very well. Like yall said....if i was asked to do a job, i wouldnt want someone to tell me how to do it, just what needs to be done.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

housepaintingny said:


> Dosnt sound like you had a contract. A 2 page list of things to paint isn't a contract. That should have been a sign when the contractor didn't present you a clearly outlined contract, including what was going to be painted and the number of coats.


You're not from around here, are ya? :no:

In the South, contracts like that are not typical on small jobs.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> Give them a chance to fix it. Honestly, most products look like crap with one coat. If you want to paint the doors yourself, tell them.
> 
> 
> From what it sounds like, these guys are commercial painters. Not custom home painters. What is acceptable in the commercial world, doesnt fly on the residential side. With the economy being the way that it is, commercial guys are branching into residential and vice versa to try and stay alive. Its rough out there for these guys. Im not making excuses, just trying to give the other sides point of view. You say that nobody came to bid. Well, you said that 1, you live far away. Thats probably a big turn off for most guys. Giving a free estimate when the vast majority of their calls are just "tire kickers". Gas is expensive, and those free estimates cost their company time and money, not to mention their closing rates are lower as well as overall pricing.


Exactly, thats all i suspected. And i completely agree with you. I figured that there might be different types of painters that base most their work on different types of jobs, but i thought that was me assuming something.

My home is completely custom, and we are doing everything very precise and perfect. It is a green home, that if you saw it, not to toot my horn, but looks like something from dwell magazine. (Im not snobby) We moved far away in the country to do this.

I completely understand how i could have expected more than what is normal.

But, Lets just break it down to what is really the main issues, not what i expected, or little things i am picky about.

Im talking about the swirls around door knobs,....peeling paint.....drips, runs...brush marks........no communication this is with the expensive paint....


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

pyper said:


> You're not from around here, are ya? :no:
> 
> In the South, contracts like that are not typical on small jobs.


Yes let me make that clear also....

Maybe i havent done much work with contractors, but my parents have.....i have never seen a contract in my life down here....in texas.

I have hired or my parents have hired flooring companies, framers, metal building builders, brick layers, ......and im talking several different ones, from different areas, throughout my life time......

never seen one....


thats why im confused when someone mentioned the contract thing


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

pyper said:


> You're not from around here, are ya? :no:
> 
> In the South, contracts like that are not typical on small jobs.


Why would a contract not be used? It clarifies what is expected of both parties and binds both parys to there commitments. I won't even schedule a client for a project unless they have signed a contract


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## sjadon (Mar 23, 2011)

Dont feel guilty about the contract... a small job should have included an invoice or estimate with specifications on it. This would or should have detailed what you expected and what they provided. In either case you will know how to proceed in the future. At any point did you stop them while working and give them instruction as to how you wanted the work done? Its your money.

jadon steavens
http://www.charactercraftsmen.com


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

W typicly never mention coats in our contracts unless something is discussed ahead of time. We will just paint as many coats as it takes. It is rare that walls or trim wil need more than 2 and we can uaually spot that ahead of time and account for it in the bid. 

To the OP. Some things are amiss. Taping of hardware is a no-no. Paint can get under tape and give you a false sence that you have painted right up to the hardware only to pull the tape and reveal a 1/16" ring around a doorknob. Pro painters can make the job look almost the same wether they took the hardware off or not so it is just a matter of convience.

"They cut in the drywall with a brush....i have painted 3 houses in my life not counting this one, and more than once....i have never used a brush."

Cutting in with a brush is the industry standard. How did you cut in the wall to the ceiling with a roller?

Using a roller on the trim is fine as long as you back brush it. Nothing looks cheaper than orange peel on trim. 
Painting of the tops of the door is only done if there are stairs near and you can see it.. The bottom of the door is usually not done since it is typicly not a finished surface.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

housepaintingny said:


> Why would a contract not be used? It clarifies what is expected of both parties and binds both parys to there commitments. I won't even schedule a client for a project unless they have signed a contract


People just don't do contracts. It's tradition. It might go back to a time when many people never learned to read and write.

We had an addition put on our house with a handshake. If you start asking for contracts you scare off a lot of contractors. Especially the good ones. I don't know if they get worried you're going to sue them, or if they think you're questioning their integrity, or what, but that's pretty much how things are done.

I'm sure big projects do get contracts, just not small ones. Like if you were building a house I'm pretty sure you'd need a contract to get a construction loan.

Also, it's not uncommon to get a written estimate that will provide some details and then engage the person to do what they provided an estimate for, which is functionally similar to a contract in many respects.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

You may want to compile a list of items that need correction and your concerns about the project. Set up a meeting with the painting company and discuss your concerns and what needs to be corrected. Giving the painters one chance to make the corrections and let them know that you are not happy and that the outcome was not what you had expected. I do agree that if you where furnishing paint they should have told you that they needed more.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

sjadon said:


> Dont feel guilty about the contract... a small job should have included an invoice or estimate with specifications on it. This would or should have detailed what you expected and what they provided. In either case you will know how to proceed in the future. At any point did you stop them while working and give them instruction as to how you wanted the work done? Its your money.
> 
> jadon steavens
> http://www.charactercraftsmen.com


no, my wife went to my parents house, which is right by our house on the same land, and i went to work.....my wife wouldnt know what to tell them to do if she stayed home.

(we locked important crap up, haha)

i dont like people hovering over me when im doing something for them.....

ill be there friday.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

Matthewt1970 said:


> W typicly never mention coats in our contracts unless something is discussed ahead of time. We will just paint as many coats as it takes. It is rare that walls or trim wil need more than 2 and we can uaually spot that ahead of time and account for it in the bid.
> 
> To the OP. Some things are amiss. Taping of hardware is a no-no. Paint can get under tape and give you a false sence that you have painted right up to the hardware only to pull the tape and reveal a 1/16" ring around a doorknob. Pro painters can make the job look almost the same wether they took the hardware off or not so it is just a matter of convience.
> 
> ...


Well i always had trouble with the brush marks and it basically just wipes the paint on then off....so i always use a four inch roller, or even a six inch. All you do is smash it real good in the corners, (sounds unprofessional) saturate it with paint, (if you do it correctly and roll it all out, there is no drips or runs.) then roll all over it and smooth it out toward the wall, this way you cut in a good amount (so much more compared to a brush), so when you roll the walls, its so much easier to blend, and you dont have to get close at all the the trim or the edges when your doing the main part of the wall. you can get away with one coat, if you do this too. because one coat with a brush doesnt cover as well as a roller (this is merely my experience) this of course probably wouldnt do well if you have different colored walls touching....

this is a brand new house, with only one coat of primed drywall......


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

housepaintingny said:


> Why would a contract not be used? It clarifies what is expected of both parties and binds both parys to there commitments. I won't even schedule a client for a project unless they have signed a contract


cause this isnt the north where people are snobby and act like turds and sue everyone....

down here, we are nice, and usually let way to much slide....

(for the most part this is both truth and a joke) haha


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

pyper said:


> People just don't do contracts. It's tradition. It might go back to a time when many people never learned to read and write.
> 
> We had an addition put on our house with a handshake. If you start asking for contracts you scare off a lot of contractors. Especially the good ones. I don't know if they get worried you're going to sue them, or if they think you're questioning their integrity, or what, but that's pretty much how things are done.
> 
> ...


agree with everything. i have seen some major things go down on just a handshake or a nod of the head. 

but yes, for some tile i had laid, i got a paper that had how much labor cost, how much each material cost.....that was about it.....not what they would be doing. and that was probably only because women handled the actual business part. i dont think men fill out paper work in texas......haha....its to feminine


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

I guess the south is getting to know what the rest of us already know- if it isn't in the contract it doesn't exist. 
Sorry- i don't think the "that's not how we do it " thing works. And here is a good example.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Wellll, for what it's worth, I am not in the deep south ( Maryland) and I was in the business( wall paper, painting etc) for almost 20 years and never had or was asked for a contract. It was probably stupid and certainly not a good business practice but I only got burned once in all those years.I think it depends on location.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

And just to be honest- I almost always give a proposal- so that the client and I are on the same page. I seldom get one back all signed up. They usually say in an email- go ahead. That's it. 
But they have seen what i think is the scope of the work written out, and have a chance to say that's right- or not. And I bill from that proposal, signed or not. 
So it's not real hard core- but to get both on the same page is important, expectations from both sides need to be clear. And verbal is nice -written is much better. No misunderstandings if it's spelled out- at least some.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Looks like an interesting thread. I'm out of town and look forward to chiming in when I get back fri pm or sat am. Hang tough pretzels.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> Looks like an interesting thread. I'm out of town and look forward to chiming in when I get back fri pm or sat am. Hang tough pretzels.


if your not on my side, go ahead and NOT reply.....haha j/k


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

i took a couple pics with my wifes point and shoot....ill try to link them... i would rather not break out all my professional camera equipment to catch most of the problems.....since i would require lots of lights and light modifiers to catch most issues....in a camera.....its easy with the naked eye.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

heres a link. this is not much, but it shows a few of the things, some things didnt show up well so i didnt add them..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

pretzels said:


> heres a link. this is not much, but it shows a few of the things, some things didnt show up well so i didnt add them..
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


That's "professional" work?


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

as professional as it gets out here in the woods....


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

now im finding globs on my nicely painted baseboards, on my freaking couch, and in the door jambs as well.....apparently they needed to 'cut in' with a brush for about a foot around our a/c control panel too....its like their messing with me now.....who swirls around a control panel that many times?

i have a 16 camera dvr system that i have been waiting to install......wish i would have done it sooner....this might have been entertaining for us all...

i think i have come to the conclusion that i am going to let them just paint the drywall again, and the exterior parts cause those are like 2 stories up, and my scissor lift is broken and its the main reason i couldnt finish the exterior myself. They seem to be doing at least some what decent out there.....(or im imagining it cause id rather not have to climb a latter or set up scaffolding myself.) 

whats the 'professional' way of dealing with nail holes in walls, nail holes in baseboards, drywall imperfections, things of that nature......do you include that in a bid, or does a customer really have to point all of this out.....

why would they call painters putty, painters putty if the painter has to be specifically asked to use it.....im just sayin

why does painters putty end up leaking some yellow discoloration through paint? what would cause that? is that normal?

the orange paint in the pictures is sherwin williams- sher khem or whatever its called


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

pretzels said:


> as professional as it gets out here in the woods....


That's why I do my own work.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

DrHicks said:


> That's why I do my own work.


exactly


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## ThatDaveGuy (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok, initially this sounded like someone with really high expectations that weren't met but after looking at those pics I gotta say, you have a case pretzel. Those things just leap out at you and paint spilled on furniture or blinds is definitely beyond the bounds of acceptability. I am a lousy painter, hate having to do it and if lousy painting was an Olympic sport I think I could at least bring home a bronze but even I wouldn't do some that.

But look on the bright side, you did get one very valuable thing out of this, the next time your wife says she's tired of you working on the house and wants to hire a contractor, you're golden :thumbup:


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

I agree, you have some pretty bad looking paint there. It really has nothing to do with resi or commercial work, that wouldn't cut it anywhere.

As far as the hardware; painters won't (or shouldn't) take hardware off. It would be incumbant on the GC (you) to do so if it affects the finish of the paint. Most painters can deal with door hardware, except for the hinges


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I agree, you have some pretty bad looking paint there. It really has nothing to do with resi or commercial work, that wouldn't cut it anywhere.


Yes, that wouldnt fly anywhere....and ive seen some pretty lousy work. Thats not the worst ive seen though, so look on the bright side :whistling2:


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

its friday, theyve been here since 9....

its turned into a joke.....

the head guy like tried to stand one of the orange metal doors up to spray it out in our 'field'. The wind like blew it over on him.....i think it hit him in the head. Then he got the other 2 doors that are metal that need to be orange, He made an effing fort out of them....he like stood them up like a 3 walled building, taped them together or something.

(I peaked around the corner of the house to see that....) I almost lost my cool, but started laughing...

The head guy is on his phone every 10 minutes, he seems to just be walking around.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

the nightmare is gone and over.....i guess

The drywall looks nice now.

Get this. I was talking to the head dude. He was talking about what they did when they were here before. He some how told me that they just shook the five gallon bucket, and motioned with his hands. A five gallon bucket....just shook it....no wonder there was water on top....he said with those big buckets you really got to get down there and mix it, and motioned like he was using on those drill bit mixers. so basically i think he, or one of his guys just shook the 5 gallon buckets a couple times.

In one of the pics i had posted, it showed what looked like a wall that just got cut in....

Nope, they painted half the place with the watery top......

he said the primer just looked like someone rubbed some milk on the doors......it clearly looked like a coat of paint when i put it on.

he washed the hardware off, did a decent job on the interior doors this time, and the orange doors are just crap...

found paint on hard wood floors.....luckily it came up easy.....(the latex always does,, but this was the oil base sher khem...it scared me when i saw it.....looks like some one tracked it around.

again, our house is a metal building, and the only thing to paint on the exterior was exposed i-beams and some 4x4 metal beams. They brushed/rolled them on the first time, but you could clearly see the redish/brown primed metal underneath. So i told them it needs another coat. They got to work. He came and asked me to check it. I was like "ok, but im sure its good now since you did another coat" he was like, "well, we didnt do another coat" so i went to look, it looked ok, but wasnt happy, i wanted two good coats, i want it to be covered good and last longer. I told him to do the rest (cause he just did a little at that point) they went on doing other things. I reminded them to do the rest, i was ignored again....

at this point i was starting to get a really bad migraine (i get them, and they make me feel really sick, really the worst, like cant move, get dizzy, it doesnt go away until after i sleep it off overnight usually) i feel like im dying, seriously. So i just wanted this to end and them to leave......so from that point i was like whatever....

lesson learned.

in the end, the drywall looks nice now, the interior doors are acceptable, and the orange exterior doors are trash, (but we plan on replacing them sooner or later), other exterior stuff acceptable....

very disappointed in the experience and painter....

i kept my eye on them most the time.....pretty, sloppy work ethic, and the way they did things.....

no more hiring people....


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

You cant let one bad experience sour you on ever hiring someone again. 

Our neighbors hired a landscaper to do a ton of work on their place. Well, one day their big dump truck was parked on the hill in front of our house. It slipped from park and rolled through our yard and landscaping. Before we even knew about it, they had come to our house, apologized, and sent another crew out to immediately replace everything. I was impressed, got their card, and have them scheduled for work next month.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> You cant let one bad experience sour you on ever hiring someone again.
> 
> Our neighbors hired a landscaper to do a ton of work on their place. Well, one day their big dump truck was parked on the hill in front of our house. It slipped from park and rolled through our yard and landscaping. Before we even knew about it, they had come to our house, apologized, and sent another crew out to immediately replace everything. I was impressed, got their card, and have them scheduled for work next month.


oh i know, its just frustrating, and thats how we feel and will for a few weeks or months.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

new doors need painting all four sides/edges to maintain warranty. new house construction all door hardware comes off, i pay painters to do this and reattatch. everything gets one prime, two finish


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

tpolk said:


> new doors need painting all four sides/edges to maintain warranty. new house construction all door hardware comes off, i pay painters to do this and reattatch. everything gets one prime, two finish


holly crap, thank you.....where were you all this time...


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

i was able to remove the oil paint from the floor.....rather simply, with goof off, it didnt seem to affect the finish. It was tracked down the stair case too, (you can see we are using bright orange, our exterior is bright green, so we have those colors as well as a grey that was tracked through out....well plus the white latex, but like i said, the latex just peels off.

one of the guys spelled out the word 'dance' on our fridge with our kids alphabet magnets.

I will take some blame as well, for not being precise with what i wanted, and assuming things. 

I think thats the end of this story, for now. 

caution, below. please dont get all offensive, it may seem like im bashing, but im not, i would like thoughts on this though.

i cant comprehend how painting around hardware could ever be acceptable, even if you dont get it on the hardware, there is still a huge difference in appearance between the look of the stuff being painted around, and being removed and replaced back after painting where it goes (no matter how good you think you are at it). 

I mean really, its really not standard to paint the hole where the latch goes or the trim behind the hinges....(no wonder im always looking at places and wondering why the hell they didnt paint that, i always assumed they DIDNT hire a professional, and that maybe the person who painted it owned it and didnt care.) And i can tell you im not the only one who thinks this way. Everyone i work with agreed they should have removed all of this stuff and painted with out having to be asked. So basically, if your wondering why customers arent completely satisfied, its probably because a lot of people assume that a 'painter' would actually 'paint' EVERYTHING, even if its not going to see the light of day for 10 years. They just dont say anything about it.

I am pretty sure there are more reasons to paint things than just looks. Everything, and every part of it showing or not needs paint, it helps protect things and make them last longer. When someone hires a painter, they expect the painter to cover everything. 

Plus, even if its the "industry standard," not to remove these things, its flat out lazy to me, and no matter how professional you are, i highly doubt it could ever look nice to me (but thats me, and i could be proven wrong one day)

But i also believe they should remove all lighting fixtures as well, and im sure all of you would freak out that i said that, cause its electrical oh no, so scary....3 wires....oooohhhh noooo, boogy mans going to get you. Thats why they have a breaker box.

Most people probably unhappily accept it and go on, because they are tired of someone in their home, especially someone whos not doing what they expect, and they just want it all to be over with. Lets face it, not everyone is all "im going to tell them off and get in their face," some people have trouble in situations like that even opening their mouth. They are all probably "well he is professional, so i guess you dont paint that." Why not just do an awesome job, and paint everything, even if its not industry standard. 

I can tell you plain and simple, most people assume your going to remove all this stuff. 

But i guess that could be based on different areas as well. I could see a northerner freaking out over a painter removing a door or something electrical, i mean northerners rarely do any of this stuff themselves, they probably think they need to call an electrician out to remove outlet covers and their contractor out to remove the doors before the painter comes....here in texas we usually do everything ourselves unless, we get rich, or are from the north....:laughing:

i was removing light fixtures and doors and painting my parents house when i was 12-14, somewhere around there.

anywho, there is no reason to get all upset over anything i said, it doesnt pertain to everyone, and i didnt intend any rudeness, and some of it was merely joking, but thoughts on it would be entertaining.

later dudes, i got a sidewalk/patio to have done before the wifey gets back......and beers to drink:wink:.

Yes in texas beer time on the weekends is about 9 am.....

im glad tpolk showed up....


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

pretzels said:


> caution, below. please dont get all offensive, it may seem like im bashing, but im not, i would like thoughts on this though.


It does sound like you're bashing and crying about spilled milk



pretzels said:


> i cant comprehend how painting around hardware could ever be acceptable, even if you dont get it on the hardware, there is still a huge difference in appearance between the look of the stuff being painted around, and being removed and replaced back after painting where it goes (no matter how good you think you are at it).


I'm not saying it should be done, what I am saying is that most painters will (and should) exclude removal of hardware from their scope of work. If you want it removed and painted, then the HO or GC needs to hire a carpenter to do it. Do many problems can happen when things are removed willy nilly



pretzels said:


> But i also believe they should remove all lighting fixtures as well, and im sure all of you would freak out that i said that, cause its electrical oh no, so scary....3 wires....oooohhhh noooo, boogy mans going to get you. Thats why they have a breaker box.


Really flippant, and poorly thought out.

So it is your belief that these individuals who could not correctly stir paint should essentially remove and replace much of the final trim wiring in your house? In much of the states such work requires aan electrical license. Also, since it would be safe to assume that incompetent and unsafe painters would probably perform worse as electricians, how would their insurance cover the fire damage to your house and incinerated family?

On further projects, when you are asking for bids, be sure to put such wishes on your spec sheet. Then the contractor can bid it as such.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

pretzels said:


> i was able to remove the oil paint from the floor.....rather simply, with goof off, it didnt seem to affect the finish. It was tracked down the stair case too, (you can see we are using bright orange, our exterior is bright green, so we have those colors as well as a grey that was tracked through out....well plus the white latex, but like i said, the latex just peels off.
> 
> one of the guys spelled out the word 'dance' on our fridge with our kids alphabet magnets.
> 
> ...


Why do you make comments about people in the north. As an owner of a leading painting company I can tell you that not every one works sloppy with no integrity like your painters did and that a lot of company's go above and beyond with customer service, because a legitimate painting contractor know that his name and reputation is on the line with every project. I can say that our company provides exceptional customer service along with quality work and that's why we are successful and a lot of our work is from repeat customers. There are three sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth. A lot of things are standard practice in the coatings industry, but unfortunately not every painter follows them. All painting company's are not alike. You had a bad experience, but hopefully learned a little from it. It is a two sided street. Just as there are illegitimate, unprofessional contractors there are also home owners that will shaft a contractor in a second if they could.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

housepaintingny said:


> Why do you make comments about people in the north. As an owner of a leading painting company I can tell you that not every one works sloppy with no integrity like your painters did and that a lot of company's go above and beyond with customer service, because a legitimate painting contractor know that his name and reputation is on the line with every project. I can say that our company provides exceptional customer service along with quality work and that's why we are successful and a lot of our work is from repeat customers. There are three sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth. A lot of things are standard practice in the coatings industry, but unfortunately not every painter follows them. All painting company's are not alike. You had a bad experience, but hopefully learned a little from it. It is a two sided street. Just as there are illegitimate, unprofessional contractors there are also home owners that will shaft a contractor in a second if they could.


:notworthy: Perfectly stated. The OP did get a crappy painting job, that is clear. But to insult a entire trade and the portion of the country north of the Mason-Dixon line is tiresome. He made ass-umptions based on this incredible scope of work he did when he was 12. The fact is that some of what he wants done (removal of electrical trim items) is illegal. He needs to stop complaining to us, and write angry letters to his members of congress


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

In most states a licensed electrician is needed to mess with electrical work. A professional painter can paint doors while they are on the hinges with out leaving brush marks. In general if the doors need to be removed it would cost more, which is obvious, because there is more time involved. Sometimes trying to re hang a door that's been removed can be a problem, as you may have stripped holes. I've painted 100s and 100s of doors both metal and wood without removing the doors and there are no brush marks once so ever on our doors. So it is possible to paint them while there hung.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

It is also difficult to reinstall hardware and hang doors without getting the doors greasy or scuffed. Life is a series of trade-offs.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I almost always remove door and door frame hardware, but I would never, ever, take the hinges off the door or frame. The last thing I need, as a painting contractor, is to compromise the integrity of a hinge by removing it from it's cutout. I take some electrical fixtures off completely sometimes, if the time involved saves me time during, or makes possible, the painting. It's not something I enjoy doing because I'm not an electrician. It may be just three wires, but it only takes one wire to start a fire. If I don't mess with it, there's no fire. If you have certain idiosyncracies, they're yours, you can't assume that everyone is attuned to them, especially when dealing with industry standards. As was stated time and again, if you want those things done you must make that apparent up front so the contractor can calculate the extra effort in the bid.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

I finally get Pretzles' problem. He expects people to do MORE than industry standard without being paid more 'cause he thinks it's lazy if they do not. 

Guess that makes just about every person who expects to get paid for the job they do 'lazy' for not going above-and-beyond for free.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

It is pointless to come on here and complain as we are not there to actually see what's happening. My feelings are this: if you are seeking perfection, or near perfection, do the job yourself.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> It does sound like you're bashing and crying about spilled milk
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i know they are flippant...

and the only bashing intended are for unprofessional professionals...so theres no reason to get offensive

you dont have to get all serious on me. they are obviously for the most part ridiculous remarks ridiculously stated.

but i do think it should be the painter to point out that they arent removing these things unless asked, or should tell us if we do, we will have to hire someone to or do it ourselves. how are we non painters supposed to know this isnt what their supposed to do?

is that really something you would disagree with.

im not talking about contractors hiring painters, im talking about regular people/homeowners who hire them to paint their house or business.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

housepaintingny said:


> Why do you make comments about people in the north. As an owner of a leading painting company I can tell you that not every one works sloppy with no integrity like your painters did and that a lot of company's go above and beyond with customer service, because a legitimate painting contractor know that his name and reputation is on the line with every project. I can say that our company provides exceptional customer service along with quality work and that's why we are successful and a lot of our work is from repeat customers. There are three sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth. A lot of things are standard practice in the coatings industry, but unfortunately not every painter follows them. All painting company's are not alike. You had a bad experience, but hopefully learned a little from it. It is a two sided street. Just as there are illegitimate, unprofessional contractors there are also home owners that will shaft a contractor in a second if they could.


its just joking around man....calm down.

all of your statements are obviously correct...


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> :notworthy: Perfectly stated. The OP did get a crappy painting job, that is clear. But to insult a entire trade and the portion of the country north of the Mason-Dixon line is tiresome. He made ass-umptions based on this incredible scope of work he did when he was 12. The fact is that some of what he wants done (removal of electrical trim items) is illegal. He needs to stop complaining to us, and write angry letters to his members of congress


we do all know i was kidding right......this is like people typing an email in all caps, and someone assuming they were yelling, or made.

ass-umptions..

calm down my friends. How was a insulting the whole trade if i seemed to i apologize, i already stated that i know (well i dont know personally, but i imagine), not every painter is like this.


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> I almost always remove door and door frame hardware, but I would never, ever, take the hinges off the door or frame. The last thing I need, as a painting contractor, is to compromise the integrity of a hinge by removing it from it's cutout. I take some electrical fixtures off completely sometimes, if the time involved saves me time during, or makes possible, the painting. It's not something I enjoy doing because I'm not an electrician. It may be just three wires, but it only takes one wire to start a fire. If I don't mess with it, there's no fire. If you have certain idiosyncracies, they're yours, you can't assume that everyone is attuned to them, especially when dealing with industry standards. As was stated time and again, if you want those things done you must make that apparent up front so the contractor can calculate the extra effort in the bid.


how can i make something apparent that i never ever would have thought someone wouldnt do though, and im not the only person out there that thinks this, i have an office of about 11 people who clearly thought it was ridiculous that they didnt remove the hardware, 2 were upset at painters they hired for the same things. (and yes sometimes business is slow and we sit around and talk trash about stuff)

so its obvious that the painter should really probably point these things out. and that if its not now, should probably be industry standard.

if you really want to get into it.

when i say i want this painted, lets say, i want the door jambs painted.

where in that sentence did i say NOT to paint the area behind the hinges and hardware. WHERE.

that is part of the door jamb. PERIOD

the painter should reply "now do you want us to remove this hardware and paint behind it" or " you are going to need to remove the hard ware or we will have to charge extra"

so if your a professional painter not asking those questions and ASSUMING the home owner didnt mean to paint this stuff......then i am bashing you, sorry, but i am. that is ridiculous.

if you clearly point this out, then awesome, your probably a great professional painter.

and if you dont, i would really consider you do when you go into someones home to paint, if anything it would make your customer feel more confident. just something to think about


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

Leah Frances said:


> I finally get Pretzles' problem. He expects people to do MORE than industry standard without being paid more 'cause he thinks it's lazy if they do not.
> 
> Guess that makes just about every person who expects to get paid for the job they do 'lazy' for not going above-and-beyond for free.



hahaha

not at all, in any way.

I have set no limit on what to pay for painting, or anything else. I would have spent double, even triple. I clearly didnt take the cheapest bid. (well clear to me)

if the painter told me it cost more to do these things when he showed up to work, i would have been like "whatever it takes" i wouldnt even have asked the price.

so you can ignore this whole idea. its just plain wrong.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Why didn’t you just get rid of them the first day?

I occasionally hire subs site unseen and if their not up par on day one their gone, just that simple.

You speak of what a perfectionist painter you are why would you let them hack on your house?


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## maxfischersweet (Nov 18, 2009)

kwikfishron said:


> Why didn’t you just get rid of them the first day?
> 
> I occasionally hire subs site unseen and if their not up par on day one their gone, just that simple.
> 
> You speak of what a perfectionist painter you are why would you let them hack on your house?


well i let them come back because he gave excuses, and i wanted to give them a chance to fix/finish, and it worked for the most part, because it all finally got done decently, (except the orange doors). People always get so hot headed, i figured you give some one at least one chance to fix things.

from the way i see it, if you dont give them one chance to fix it, then your pretty much accept paying them what was agreed upon. if the mess it up again, you have a right to argue about payment.


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