# My Flat roof project-help!



## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi everyone my first major post. been reading for hours about roofs here. I got a old tar and gravel flat roof and a steeper shingled roof right now. the roof is leaking badly on the gravel side. 

So i got a couple different bids. but i need help deciding whats the best option:

1-johns manville granular APP mod bit. $5k

2. firestone epdm. $7k

3. pvc $18k (yikes)

for all the experts out there ( ed, TRG, etc) which option do you think is best? i think at this point i am going to tear off the existing shingle roof and replace with whatever material i decide to go with. 

also, how do i insure the roofer i pick is legit? i asked for references and insurance, but what else? thanks for all the help!!!!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*some pics*

heres some pics for reference. 

























more pics in the album


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Don't know what state you are in. I can tell you in Washington you can go to the state's Dept of Labor and get all pertinent info on a contractor. License, insurance, bond, lawsuits, tax status. In Idaho it's not nearly as detailed. So it varies from state to state. 

As for the type of roof, you'll be lucky to get 10 years out of the APP. The EPDM all depends on what material and who is installing it. Same as the PVC. Honestly, the best system you could put on (besides low-slope metal) is what's not on your list but is already on your roof. A 4-ply gravel BUR is good for 25-30 years properly maintained. Unfortunately not many people do them anymore. They learn how to do single-ply and call themselves roofers. 

I must say the PVC price does seem inordinately high compared to the epdm but I don't know what either plans on doing. It does look like you definitely need something done though. What is the square footage of the deck in question?


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## Mabc (Aug 1, 2010)

I'd go with EPDM, but whether it leaks or not is all up to how it is put on, and I wouldn't replace the shingles with EPDM just the flat part of the roof then just get some new shingles for the rest.


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## -Pjackso (Jul 21, 2010)

Have you considered a standing seam metal roof?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

thanks for the input gentlemen. yea BUR is old school and noones proposed it. noone proposed metal either. i have read up on everything system except metal. is there a big advantage to using metal? i mentioned replacing the shingles side too because 2 squares need to be fixed on the shingle roof as well. something is pushing up from underneath and causing it to push up through the roof.

oh and i am in the DC metro area. we had the crazy insane crazyyyyyyyyy blizzard you guys prob heard about


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

A high-end standing seam metal like Imetco Series300 is your best option. May cost a little more up front but, properly installed, you will never have to worry about it again. I'm not talking about something you buy from the big box, Series 300 is a very well-engineered system and worth the money.

You still never told us how large the area in question is.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> A high-end standing seam metal like Imetco Series300 is your best option. May cost a little more up front but, properly installed, you will never have to worry about it again. I'm not talking about something you buy from the big box, Series 300 is a very well-engineered system and worth the money.
> 
> You still never told us how large the area in question is.


 thanks for the reply. i need to research into metal. the flat slope side is about 750 sq ft, and the shingle side is a little less maybe 700.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

So the prices you listed are for an 8 square job? Wow, what else is being done besides tearing off existing and installing a new roofing system? Or is this for the entire house?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> So the prices you listed are for an 8 square job? Wow, what else is being done besides tearing off existing and installing a new roofing system? Or is this for the entire house?


 yea only 700sq for each section. its just replacing roof. nothing else


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I would hope you will close in and get rid of what’s left of that window in the process.


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

kwikfishron said:


> I would hope you will close in and get rid of what’s left of that window in the process.


I'm pretty sure thats the neighbors house.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

:laughing: Ok I'll shut up. :drink:

I have see that before though. :wink:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so the best way is to call the manufacturer of the roof you want and ask them whos qualified to install the roofing system they make


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

kwikfishron said:


> :laughing: Ok I'll shut up. :drink:
> 
> I have see that before though. :wink:


That would be a weird detail though


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Calling the manufacturer for a certified roofer doe's not guarantee you a quality job will be done.

Look at manufacturer certified contractors, angies list, search engine searches, yards signs left by contractors in your area, ask friends/family, etc., and then take 'free' estimates until you find the contractor you feel most comfortable with.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

OldNBroken said:


> So the prices you listed are for an 8 square job? Wow, what else is being done besides tearing off existing and installing a new roofing system? Or is this for the entire house?



The pictures he's showing us have snow on the ground. There hasn't been any snow in DC for at least a month or two. :whistling2:

There will certainly be some sheathing if not structural repairs necessary since water has been pouring in for at least months. 

All of those prices sound pretty high. I've done some work in the DC area and disposal was pretty high compared to KY, but not enough to account for those prices. The PVC guy must be pretty proud of his product. 

To the OP: Are you sure they're not proposing adding tapered insulation or re-sheathing or something else like that?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Slyfox said:


> Calling the manufacturer for a certified roofer doe's not guarantee you a quality job will be done.
> 
> Look at manufacturer certified contractors, angies list, search engine searches, yards signs left by contractors in your area, ask friends/family, etc., and then take 'free' estimates until you find the contractor you feel most comfortable with.


thanks for the input. unfortunately i dont know anyone friends with a roofing problem. so all i have to go on right now is google and all the estimates



seeyou said:


> The pictures he's showing us have snow on the ground. There hasn't been any snow in DC for at least a month or two. :whistling2:
> 
> There will certainly be some sheathing if not structural repairs necessary since water has been pouring in for at least months.
> 
> ...


sorry my pics are not clear-the roof just started leaking like 3 weeks ago. we havent had snow since march. the pic is just from when the snow melted and i went up there to take a look. so hopefully the decking is still in good condition,etc. the estimates propose laying down 1/2" board insluation, but did not specify if its tapered. i think most roofers take average consumers as not very knowledgable.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

*i think most roofers take average consumers as not very knowledgable.

*Actually, very few consumers want very much roof knowledge. They just want it fixed.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

I can tell ya right now those gaping holes in two of those pictures are not going to be cured with 1/2" recovery board. When it's bad enough to look like that I pretty much guarantee that what you see is only a small fraction of the actual damage you will uncover when you tear it off.

No mention of deck replacement?

looks like you have good slope, no need for any taper system.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

the estimates say they will decide if decking needs replacing once they tear off the roof. but thats adding to the cost as well if they do new decking.



seeyou said:


> *i think most roofers take average consumers as not very knowledgable.*
> 
> Actually, very few consumers want very much roof knowledge. They just want it fixed.


haha true i do want to get it fixed asap


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

This will give you a little bit of education... http://reliableamerican.us/articles/frequently-asked-flat-roofing-questions.html

Your comparing an apple to an orange. There is more to the job than just the membrane being used.

What type of setup and staging? Who will do the best job to protect your property?
Tear off?
Is anyone including wood?
What type of insulation is being used if any?
What about edge metal?
What about new gutter?
What about system specification? 10 year? 15 year? 20 year? You see how the roof is constructed, according to manufacturer specification, will determine the longevity of the roof. For example comparing a 10 year modified bitumen to a 20 year pvc is ridiculious. Thats why you need a clear definition of the system rating. 


I can tell you from experience based on those prices that someone is not doing the same as everyone else.


As for picking the right contractor... http://reliableamerican.us/articles/hire-your-contractor.htm


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> This will give you a little bit of education... http://reliableamerican.us/articles/frequently-asked-flat-roofing-questions.html
> 
> Your comparing an apple to an orange. There is more to the job than just the membrane being used.
> 
> ...


 thanks for the links-i actually read them already from reading around the boards here you brought up the exact point i was trying to make-i cant decide which roof is the best option, and 2 when i do i cant decide which contractor to go with!!!  the similarities for the roofers include the flashing and insulation,etc. everyones recommending about the same stuff-aluminum flashing for drip edge, .5inch board insulation,etc. main different is the type they are proposing. based on the pic what do you think would be best? thanks!


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

federer said:


> thanks for the links-i actually read them already from reading around the boards here you brought up the exact point i was trying to make-i cant decide which roof is the best option, and 2 when i do i cant decide which contractor to go with!!!  the similarities for the roofers include the flashing and insulation,etc. everyones recommending about the same stuff-aluminum flashing for drip edge, .5inch board insulation,etc. main different is the type they are proposing. *based on the pic what do you think would be best?* thanks!


All of the systems mentioned are fine systems _if installed correctly._ All roofers don't always do all systems. Of the three systems priced, I only do EPDM. The other two are not that widely used in this area. 

As Grumpy mentioned, there must be some difference between the bids other than roof material. Some companies (like mine) price a worst case scenario when we see damage such as yours. Others, price the minimum and then change order you to death. 

I'm not an advocate of getting 15 prices, but in this situation, I think you need to get at least one other price on each of the systems. That might help clear things up.


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

The pictures are a little deceiving ,but have you considered a framed in gable roof system? As long as you have a "flat" roof ,you will always have problems. Can you take a more distant shot for a picture?


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## H. A. S. (Aug 18, 2010)

Looks like the neighbor's house needs some new siding, too.:whistling2:


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

bernieb said:


> The pictures are a little deceiving ,but have you considered a framed in gable roof system? *As long as you have a "flat" roof ,you will always have problems. *Can you take a more distant shot for a picture?


As long as one has a roof that one lets wear out before one replaces it, one will always have problems, no matter the slope. 

A properly applied low slope roof system will outlast a jackleg shingle job on a steep slope roof.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hi, don't use aluminum flashing with a torch applied roof!!! 

What mill aluminum? .032 or .019? We typically will use the thicker .032 for flat roof flashings, although I suppose on residential single ply .019 would be acceptable. What paint finish? Baked on enamel 15 year color warranty or premium kynar coated 25 year color warranty?

What type of insulation are they recommending? 1/2" Polyisocyanurate or 1/2" fiberboard? The price difference is vast when comparing ISO to fiber. This actually also brings up another point, is the ceiling in that flat roof section insulated with fiberglass already? I'm assuming it is which I would then install 1/2" fiberboard... but that also brings up another question. What about ventilation? 

Fiberboard has little R value, and isn't being installed for the R value, but as a seperator between the roof and the sheathing, which is necessary. Therefore ventilation is required.

What about system ratings? How is the modified goingt o be installed fiberboard with a base sheet and a smoot black membrane? This is a 10 year roof. Add a granulated over that and you now have a 20 year roof. See my point?

PVC or EPDM what mil? .45, .60, .80? How is it installed, mechanically attached or fully adhered? A .45 mechanically attached is a 15 year roof while a .60 or thicker fully adhered is a 20 year roof. .90 EPDM fully adhered and double seamed is a 30 year roof. 


Any roof would suffice to be honest. Typically on a residential like this we would isntall a granulated modified bitumen to match the shingles. I would install no less than a 15 year rated roof, never a 10 or 12, and preferrably a 20 year rated roof if the budget allows. The only reason in this situation I opt for the modifiued is the color match. If it's completely not visible from the ground, any membrane will be fine. I personally prefer the single ply. If you want reflectivity go with PVC.


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## Lulimet (Jul 26, 2010)

Does the flat roof have any penetrations like vent pipes and stuff?

If not then why not go with the self adhered mod bit like the Certainteed Flintastic which is granulated and comes in different colors.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

seeyou said:


> All of the systems mentioned are fine systems _if installed correctly._ All roofers don't always do all systems. Of the three systems priced, I only do EPDM. The other two are not that widely used in this area.
> 
> As Grumpy mentioned, there must be some difference between the bids other than roof material. Some companies (like mine) price a worst case scenario when we see damage such as yours. Others, price the minimum and then change order you to death.
> 
> I'm not an advocate of getting 15 prices, but in this situation, I think you need to get at least one other price on each of the systems. That might help clear things up.


thanks for the input. i agree. my problem then is i dont know who to trust so the installation is done properly. i think i may go with one that my insurance suggests-thats a good idea right? yea i dont want to keep getting estimates but you make a good point. that way i can do a comparison


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Hi, don't use aluminum flashing with a torch applied roof!!!
> 
> What mill aluminum? .032 or .019? We typically will use the thicker .032 for flat roof flashings, although I suppose on residential single ply .019 would be acceptable. What paint finish? Baked on enamel 15 year color warranty or premium kynar coated 25 year color warranty?
> 
> ...


can you come install my roof please?????  they are not giving me a lot of details. the roof is not visible from the ground. i am looking for the longest lasting roof.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Lulimet said:


> Does the flat roof have any penetrations like vent pipes and stuff?
> 
> If not then why not go with the self adhered mod bit like the Certainteed Flintastic which is granulated and comes in different colors.


yes it has a couple vents and stuff.

also Grumpy- how do i do ventilation? because right now i got soffit vents all along the bottom, but nothing at the ridge. so i need to install ridge vents. can you do that properly with a flat roof?


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

"Seeya" I see you're from Lexington Ky, so that makes us about 40 miles apart. As far as the roof subject, I'd look into the framed gable roof.........why?, because has a higher resale value, don't have to worry about heavy snows and a leaking roof . So lets have it Seeya ,how would you do a carefree roof?........please inlighten me. Bernie


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

If this is a insurance job,stay away from the insurance companies man. They work hand in hand, and if you let the man give you a bid, you'll no doubt be locked in on the cheap bid. What you don't know is that if the low bid runs over ,the insurance company will help him out. I had a fire many years ago ,and I got stung for 5 grand with the "low bid" concept.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

bernieb said:


> If this is a insurance job,stay away from the insurance companies man. They work hand in hand, and if you let the man give you a bid, you'll no doubt be locked in on the cheap bid. What you don't know is that if the low bid runs over ,the insurance company will help him out. I had a fire many years ago ,and I got stung for 5 grand with the "low bid" concept.


the insurance is not paying for it-i just asked for referrals. what do you mean the insurance company will help him out?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

bernieb said:


> "Seeya" I see you're from Lexington Ky, so that makes us about 40 miles apart. As far as the roof subject, *I'd look into the framed gable roof.........why?, because has a higher resale value,* don't have to worry about heavy snows and a leaking roof . So lets have it Seeya ,*how would you do a carefree roof?*........please inlighten me. Bernie



Not necessarily true about the resale value. If the architectural style would commonly use a low pitched roof (Frank Lloyd Wright's designs come to mind as a far fetched example), then adding a gabled or hipped roof could ruin the value and charm.

Also, to gable a roof like the OP's, the load points would change and some engineering and inside structural work would likely be necessary. Then there's the gable's to deal with. 

I think maybe you're equating low pitched roofing with roll roofing or some specific product. There are lots of systems out there, some better than others and lots of installers of varying degree of skill. Your point is well taken in that it's harder to screw up a steep pitched roof because of the shorter dwell time of the water. But we fix way more screw ups on steep roofs than low pitched ones. And they're all mostly flashing related. 

There's no such thing as a completely carefree roof. But I've got some low pitched roofs that I've done that are going on 30 years old now. And I do maintenance on several that are 100+ years old. 

Where are you located?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yea i agree steep slope may be better for water protection but i dont have funds to go and expand the integrity of the rafters and what not.


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

Federer, here's the sequence of events. I had a fire back in the sixties, a bad fire I might say,only paid 16,000 for the ranch brick three bedrooms ,nice neighborhood. Long story how a open can of gas got knocked over and into the water heater. Called insurance company and he said to get two bids of my choice. One was 19,300 and the other was 19,000. Gave to insurance man and he said he'll have a quote from a company. I said okay(bad move) he come in at 14,000. I knew from the start that I'd be doing the work , and I didn't let him know that from the start. After living in a Motel with three kids and a wife for a month, the insurance company said, you can get who you want to fix your home ,but 14,000 is all you get. Family falling apart ,I took the money. Yes, I put the house back together and lived in it for another 25 years. Insurance compaines work with a general contractor, usually a family member or a inlaw. Where ever there's money ,there's a crook somewhere. Hey, you may have an insurance claim.........be careful.


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

"Seeyou" I'm in the wilderness, close to Ky River,near Perry Park, Owenton Ky. Will be 73 next week and have a wife of 53 years that hates my guts........god I love that woman.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

bernieb said:


> "Seeyou" I'm in the wilderness, close to Ky River,near Perry Park, Owenton Ky. Will be 73 next week and have a wife of 53 years that hates my guts........god I love that woman.


I was just in Owenton Sunday. My wife is from there and they're getting ready to tear her family home down (next to the Baptist church). We went up to salvage some stained glass out of it before they ran a track hoe through it. 

I know Perry Park, or used to. I worked for the elec co when they were developing it. Pretty area.

Happy birthday and many more.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

bernieb said:


> Federer, here's the sequence of events. I had a fire back in the sixties, a bad fire I might say,only paid 16,000 for the ranch brick three bedrooms ,nice neighborhood. Long story how a open can of gas got knocked over and into the water heater. Called insurance company and he said to get two bids of my choice. One was 19,300 and the other was 19,000. Gave to insurance man and he said he'll have a quote from a company. I said okay(bad move) he come in at 14,000. I knew from the start that I'd be doing the work , and I didn't let him know that from the start. After living in a Motel with three kids and a wife for a month, the insurance company said, you can get who you want to fix your home ,but 14,000 is all you get. Family falling apart ,I took the money. Yes, I put the house back together and lived in it for another 25 years. Insurance compaines work with a general contractor, usually a family member or a inlaw. Where ever there's money ,there's a crook somewhere. Hey, you may have an insurance claim.........be careful.


 that sounds like my squence. but i am slow-i dont get what the issue is here? i got an estimate from the insurance company and they cut me a check, and i can use whoever i want. whats wrong with using someone they referred? workmanship issues?


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

A lot of things to consider here Federer. All I'm saying is that when money is involved, you have to be careful, and it sounds like you are doing just that. Your insurance man may have give you a "kiss-off" check. Afterall the less claims he has ,the bigger the bonus he gets. Nobody knows how much damage your roof system has right now, and everybody bids for the worst. My suggestion is ,go with the one that you feel you can trust, and live with it. Wouldn't hurt to check with the "Better Business Bureau" but keep in mind a lot of people out there want the work done ,but hate to turn loose of the almighty dollar, so a good contractor may have several bad marks on him.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i am trying to be careful, but i dont know how to go about it! i just called up a roofing supply company today and got more referrals. so we will see what kind of bids they give me. i cant tell who i trust-i havent found one i trust yet! maybe i should just pay you and grumpy to come and do it


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ok i realized a new issue I forgot to address before! what kind of ventilation should i get? the roof slope is too flat for a ridge vent. what options do i have?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

is flashing supposed to be ripped up when you install new gutters?


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## Lulimet (Jul 26, 2010)

Yes, only where the hangers are but it shouldn't look that ugly :no:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

haha yea thanks looks awful to me. all of that flashing needs to come up when they put the new roof in right


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## bernieb (Mar 20, 2010)

Please, I'm begging you.......and the cost may surprise you, and not to under-cut all these professional roofers that have offered help and ideas, but I've been in the building trades for quite a few years and I'm stuck with this proposal. Since I'm so cheap ,this is how I'd go about it......Go to a local large home builder and see if you can find out who the hired in rough carpenter crew is (probably out of work now) and talk to them as they'll have the insurance . I can't see all your roof, and I could be way off base, but 5 grand would go a long way with a gable roof system. A good framing crew could frame in your roof in less than three days,to do the finish work, call in a siding man. So there.......Bernie


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i appreciate your concern. its just that i dont have the money to go and take on such a project right now. and also i have a ton of other projects that needs to be addressed before it gets cold again, so i also am looking for something that wont require more time and getting permits, etc.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so i think i have decided going with a firestone 180 APP mod bit on the flat slope and 30year certainweed shingles on the steeper side. what do you experts think?


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## Lulimet (Jul 26, 2010)

Good choice on both. Show us pics when it's done :wink:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so these 2 products are good quality. in regards to the 2 different slopes though, how do you correctly flash the two materials together at teh ridge? also, what do you think would be best to vent it? i was thinking like 2 or 3 box vents. would that suffice?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

federer said:


> so these 2 products are good quality. in regards to the 2 different slopes though*, how do you correctly flash the two materials together at teh ridge?* also, what do you think would be best to vent it? *i was thinking like 2 or 3 box vents. would that suffice?*


Shingle ridge caps.

How big is the attic you're venting?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

seeyou said:


> Shingle ridge caps.
> 
> How big is the attic you're venting?


sorry i dont know what shingle ridge caps look like...

the attic is finished so its not a big space. i would say about 3ft in height max


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

federer said:


> so i think i have decided going with a firestone 180 APP mod bit on the flat slope and 30year certainweed shingles on the steeper side. what do you experts think?


APP 180 is a granulated modified bitumen rated at 15-20 years depending on installation method. How are they installing it?


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

federer said:


> so these 2 products are good quality. in regards to the 2 different slopes though, how do you correctly flash the two materials together at teh ridge? also, what do you think would be best to vent it? i was thinking like 2 or 3 box vents. would that suffice?


If I am thinking what youa re asking, you are asking how to flash where the shingle meets the flat at a kind of ridge... Shingle first, modified wraps over the shingles 3-4" then a strip of metal is installed and stripped in.

Alternatively you can use the reverse strip in, where you installin the strin in first under the metal and then seal the field membrane to the metal, but the end result is the same. Always use metal at your flat roof edges.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> APP 180 is a granulated modified bitumen rated at 15-20 years depending on installation method. How are they installing it?


oh cool. they told me its only 12yrs. hah. they only said in proposal 'installed according to manufacturer's direction' i need to find out!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> If I am thinking what youa re asking, you are asking how to flash where the shingle meets the flat at a kind of ridge... Shingle first, modified wraps over the shingles 3-4" then a strip of metal is installed and stripped in.
> 
> Alternatively you can use the reverse strip in, where you installin the strin in first under the metal and then seal the field membrane to the metal, but the end result is the same. Always use metal at your flat roof edges.


thanks yea thats my question-how to connect the 2 different materials at the ridge top


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Why would you even consider installing a 12 year roof only to go through this hassel again in 12 years? It just doesn't make sense to me, and I lose alot of jobs to the 10-12 year roofers. I wouldn't do less than 15 for my own peace of mind. If it were my house I wouldn't do less than a 20 year.

As for the 12 years you are right... We normally install a double layer of base sheet which is what gives it the extra 3 years, a single layer of base with the granulated cap is a 12 year. Ask about them installing an APP 160 smooth mid ply before installing the granulated cap. This would up the system rating to 20 years.

I once had a potential customer say to me "They can put a man on the moon but can't make a flat roof last longer than 10 years." I said to him "We can make this flat roof last 20 years if you want, but you don't want to pay for it. Remember that putting a man on the moon costs billions of dollars, doubling the life of your roof only costs a few thousand more." When I asked him weeks later why he didn't hire us, he said someone was cheaper. LOL It was the 3rd time he got a new roof since he bought the building. To me, that's the definition of a moron.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Why would you even consider installing a 12 year roof only to go through this hassel again in 12 years? It just doesn't make sense to me, and I lose alot of jobs to the 10-12 year roofers. I wouldn't do less than 15 for my own peace of mind. If it were my house I wouldn't do less than a 20 year.
> 
> As for the 12 years you are right... We normally install a double layer of base sheet which is what gives it the extra 3 years, a single layer of base with the granulated cap is a 12 year. Ask about them installing an APP 160 smooth mid ply before installing the granulated cap. This would up the system rating to 20 years.
> 
> *I once had a potential customer say to me "They can put a man on the moon but can't make a flat roof last longer than 10 years." I said to him "We can make this flat roof last 20 years if you want, but you don't want to pay for it. Remember that putting a man on the moon costs billions of dollars, doubling the life of your roof only costs a few thousand more." *When I asked him weeks later why he didn't hire us, he said someone was cheaper. LOL It was the 3rd time he got a new roof since he bought the building. To me, that's the definition of a moron.


I'm gonna have to steal that quote.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Most roofers, much less customers have no clue what lifecycle cost means. If they did, it would make my life soooo much easier.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Why would you even consider installing a 12 year roof only to go through this hassel again in 12 years? It just doesn't make sense to me, and I lose alot of jobs to the 10-12 year roofers. I wouldn't do less than 15 for my own peace of mind. If it were my house I wouldn't do less than a 20 year.
> 
> As for the 12 years you are right... We normally install a double layer of base sheet which is what gives it the extra 3 years, a single layer of base with the granulated cap is a 12 year. Ask about them installing an APP 160 smooth mid ply before installing the granulated cap. This would up the system rating to 20 years.
> 
> I once had a potential customer say to me "They can put a man on the moon but can't make a flat roof last longer than 10 years." I said to him "We can make this flat roof last 20 years if you want, but you don't want to pay for it. Remember that putting a man on the moon costs billions of dollars, doubling the life of your roof only costs a few thousand more." When I asked him weeks later why he didn't hire us, he said someone was cheaper. LOL It was the 3rd time he got a new roof since he bought the building. To me, that's the definition of a moron.


lol thanks for the input. i agree with you compltely, but unfortunately with all the other crap i gotta fix in the house, money is tight. 
why would the smooth ply last longer? dont you have to put down a coating if its smooth?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

grumpy if you wanna come over you can install my new roof


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

I think you are too far away.

Smooth would go on before the granulated, the smooth would not be exposed to the UV. The addition of the smooth to the system would just about double the thickness. If you installed a base sheet, smooth APP 160 and granulated APP 180 you'd qualify for the 20 year no dollar limit warranty (if you were a commercial property). It's still a 20 year roof none the less. It'll cost much less to add those extra 8 years now rather than doing the whole roof over again in 12 years.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

OldNBroken said:


> Most roofers, much less customers have no clue what lifecycle cost means. If they did, it would make my life soooo much easier.


You are right sir. I always give me customers options to upgrade. Some do understand the life cycle, sometimes I have to explain it and they get it, sometimes I explain it and they are dumb, sometimes I explain it and they refuse to listen.

To many consumers all they hear is "new roof $X". In their mind the cheap crappy 10 year roof is a new roof, and yes it is a new roof but if you are holding onto the property it's usually a stupid decision to buy. 

Not picking on the original poster but even in this thread we see that most consumers don't understand life cycle as in the comparing of "epdm to pvc to mod bit." there's so much gray area in that comparison.


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## rodeo (Dec 1, 2007)

I was in your shoes federer 3 yrs ago, except I didnt thoroughly research ahead of time enough. Instead, I trusted the durolast factory sales rep to recommend me a contractor. Biggest mistake/fiasco of my life.

You can learn everything on your own researching flat roofs. Grumpy had some good advice. Although a good roof contractor can spec a job properly, most arent good and its hard to tell which are good or arent good.
Even a contractor that has been around for years with a clean BBB record, no lawsuits or license issues etc can still be completely worthless and negligent, like mine was.

I would ask bidders to list and explain examples of shortcuts and bad workmanship. If you get an answer that sounds brief or guarded in any way, well there's your answer ! Ask bidders how they feel about fixing rafters or other structural repairs. Believe it or not, there are roofers who feel that rafters are not part of the roof and will ignore even obvious defects. Same goes for insulation and pond control.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> I think you are too far away.
> 
> Smooth would go on before the granulated, the smooth would not be exposed to the UV. The addition of the smooth to the system would just about double the thickness. If you installed a base sheet, smooth APP 160 and granulated APP 180 you'd qualify for the 20 year no dollar limit warranty (if you were a commercial property). It's still a 20 year roof none the less. It'll cost much less to add those extra 8 years now rather than doing the whole roof over again in 12 years.


thanks so much for your input. you are right. i didnt realize what you meant at first. so you are saying putting down the smooth PLUS the granular roof to make it last 20yrs. good idea! i didnt think of that. can the rafters and decking support the extra weight?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

rodeo said:


> I was in your shoes federer 3 yrs ago, except I didnt thoroughly research ahead of time enough. Instead, I trusted the durolast factory sales rep to recommend me a contractor. Biggest mistake/fiasco of my life.
> 
> You can learn everything on your own researching flat roofs. Grumpy had some good advice. Although a good roof contractor can spec a job properly, most arent good and its hard to tell which are good or arent good.
> Even a contractor that has been around for years with a clean BBB record, no lawsuits or license issues etc can still be completely worthless and negligent, like mine was.
> ...


you are absolutely right. i cant tell who to trust! a bunch of them completely igonored insulation/ventilation issues.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

That's because, unfortunately, most roofers out there only know enough to get by. They don't make the time and effort to edumacate themselves on all the peripheral things involved in proper roofing practices. 

Occasionally I briefly wish I could be like that. Would make bidding and doing a job so much less complicated. Unfortunately I have this annoying thing they call a reputation I need to maintain.


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## calbano (Sep 4, 2010)

I would talk to roofers/contractors about a 4ply system they hold up the best and unlikely to leak if the roof is properly vented. and you have it warranted for 20+yrs


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

4 ply meaning a torch down system right?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Ok so what we are going to go with is 
low slope- Ice&water beneath firestone 180 mod bit.
steeper slope-certainteed landmark 30yr fiberglass shingles. with option to add ice&water shield on the shingle side. is that necessary?

also, is $7K a fair price?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

federer said:


> Ok so what we are going to go with is
> low slope- Ice&water beneath firestone 180 mod bit.
> steeper slope-certainteed landmark 30yr fiberglass shingles. with option to add ice&water shield on the shingle side. is that necessary?
> 
> also, is $7K a fair price?


Ice and water under mod bit?How do you torch to that?Or am I missing something?Is a nailed base sheet going over Ice and water?If so,Ice and water is not neccesary,they do sell a peel and stick base sheet however.Also I think Ice and water is unnecessary on the entire shingle side,At the eaves and rake edges 4-sure.Price sounds very fair


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> Ice and water under mod bit?How do you torch to that?Or am I missing something?Is a nailed base sheet going over Ice and water?If so,Ice and water is not neccesary,they do sell a peel and stick base sheet however.Also I think Ice and water is unnecessary on the entire shingle side,At the eaves and rake edges 4-sure.Price sounds very fair


thanks for the input. you know what i am not exactly sure myself. here is the quote from proposal:

The installation of Ice and Water Guard in the valleys and on rear low-sloped roof. The installation of aluminum drip edge on the rake and gutter edges. The installation of Firestone #180 modified bitumen 12-year roofing material on flat roof.


am i mistaking what the proposal is saying? no base sheet is mentioned. what does base sheet consist of??


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

federer said:


> thanks for the input. you know what i am not exactly sure myself. here is the quote from proposal:
> 
> The installation of Ice and Water Guard in the valleys and on rear low-sloped roof. The installation of aluminum drip edge on the rake and gutter edges. The installation of Firestone #180 modified bitumen 12-year roofing material on flat roof.
> 
> ...


Like Grumpy said on a 12 yr warranty,your base sheet will be a nailed base(either fiberglass or sanded one side and smooth other)this ply is for fire prevention and is not an actual ply.I would go 1 step further and have a midply put down.In my understanding the rear low-sloped section would be where the mod-bit is going,right?If so,then no need for I&W on that piece:no:


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

Also,in your first pic,first post,is that a dormer on the right?Just wondering


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> Like Grumpy said on a 12 yr warranty,your base sheet will be a nailed base(either fiberglass or sanded one side and smooth other)this ply is for fire prevention and is not an actual ply.I would go 1 step further and have a midply put down.In my understanding the rear low-sloped section would be where the mod-bit is going,right?If so,then no need for I&W on that piece:no:


the proposal makes no mention of a base sheet though =/
what do you suggest for a mid ply? is that what grumpy meant about putting down a layer of the smooth mod bit?

the mod bit is going on the flat section, not the rear low sloped. so you are saying no i&w for the mod bit section.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> Also,in your first pic,first post,is that a dormer on the right?Just wondering


not sure which you mean-in the first pic its the neighbors house in the background. to the right is the rear side of the house. it's original. its the front flat slope thats added on. but both front and back were finished. so there is no real attic space. which is a pain


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ice shield under a mod bit is ridiculious!

First layer should be a fiberglass reinforced base sheet, something like a CertainTeed glass base or Firestone's equivelent. I usually doulbe up my base also called half lapping where we install the 3' roll with an 18" exposure. The base sheets are most often mechanically fastened using metal button cap nails or screws and plates.

A mid ply would be the firestone app 160. It is a smooth modified bitumen about 4mm thick. This is torch applied, welded, to the base sheet.

Finally the cap sheet would be the firestone app 180, a granulated modified bitumen about 4/5mm thick. This is torch applied to the mid ply. 

The above system rating when properly installed is 20 years. 

Keep in mind before the plys are installed I would also installa 1/2" high density fiberboard. I never want to be torching to a wood deck, this is also why we double up the base sheet. Furthermore I only do modified bitumen on request, and most often on a small reisdential project like this I would be using a self adhering modified bitumen. First layer is nailed or screwed as described above. With the self adhering, we can negate the fiberboard. The 2nd layer is a self adhering mid ply, and the final layer is a granulated self adhering cap sheet. 


Your proposal makes absolutely no metnion of fiberboard and or base sheet. I pray for your sake they do not intend to torch directly to the wood. Aluminum drip edge on a torch applied roof?! the aluminum will wrinkle and buckle from the heat. better to get a Kynar steel when installing a torch applied product. The steel can be prefinished just like aluminum can and with the Kynar coating, will last 25 years.

I'm not sure this roofer has a clue, in my opinion.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Ice shield under a mod bit is ridiculious!
> 
> First layer should be a fiberglass reinforced base sheet, something like a CertainTeed glass base or Firestone's equivelent. I usually doulbe up my base also called half lapping where we install the 3' roll with an 18" exposure. The base sheets are most often mechanically fastened using metal button cap nails or screws and plates.
> 
> ...


thanks so much grumpy! this is real bad because we decided they were the best to go with. now i have to go back and amend the proposal. thanks so much for the suggestions-yea they mentioned no base sheet,etc. so i should ask for a fiberglass base sheet, and self adhering plys so i dont need fiberboard on the bottom? or should i get get fiberboard and have it torched it down for each ply? their proposal only said " The installation of Firestone #180 modified bitumen 12-year roofing material on flat roof. All material fastened per manufacturers requirements." so i dont know if its self adhering or not!


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Nothing self-adhering belongs in any torchdown spec.
Like Grumpy said, at minimum they should nail a base sheet, then apply the torchdown over that.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

thanks OldNBroken- so base sheet, mid ply, then cap with the granular 180. how much would it add to the cost by putting the smooth mid ply? $500?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

There are self-adhering base sheets out there,that are meant for torchdown.These can replace nailed base and are considered a ply.http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&...enCA250CA344&ie=UTF-8&aq=0&oq=soprema+colvent There is one example,here is another iko fast and stick.They do cost a little more,but well worth it.I usually use a hot air welder for endlaps.Sorry for the late reply Federer,I have been a little busy.

OOPS!!Here is the link this time http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&...avclient-ff&rlz=1B2RNFA_enCA250CA344&ie=UTF-8. :yes:

Lets try again:whistling2: http://www.iko.com/products/commerc...mercial_product_id=400&commercial_region_id=3. Finally!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

thanks john-no problem i understand people get busy etc so apparently the roofer did not write it in on the proposal because he says its a 'given that a base sheet will be installed in any torch down roof'. he doesnt want people asking so many questions...so thats that. he also says a mid ply is not necesary. apparently firestone only warrants commercial jobs too. so i only have their warranty to go on.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so reading through this 
http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...derstanding-attic-ventilation?searchterm=roof

should i go with the spray foam under the deck unvented, or rigid board on top of the decking??? so much headache =/


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Firestone makes a self adhering torch applied base sheet, it's like a very thin smooth modified bitumen. Certainteed also makes a self adhering torch applied base sheet called black diamond. 

If I were putting modified on my house I would most likely install a fiberboard over the wood, double layer of glass base over the fiber board, smooth torch modified and granulated torch cap with all accessories previously mentioned.

The smooth mid ply woudl add much more than $500 in my opinion. 500 would be materials. What about labor profit and overhead?


As for insulation? What do you have now? If your ceiling is currently insulated with fiberglass, then my recomendation is to remove some deck boards and improve the existing fiberglass. Then I would install roof vents. This is called a cold deck design because the roof deck is ventilated instead of insulated. 

If you have no insulation in the ceiling, then you could either insulate the ceiling or insulate the roof deck. Do not do both.


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## hereslookingatU (Feb 8, 2010)

Hi!

Not sure how far you've gone down the road of recovering your roof, if knowhere then do a web search on 'liquid plastics' this is a wet process where fibreglass matting is either bonded over the existing roof covering or PIR or Polystyrene insulation is bonded and fixed to the existing roof covering and the liquid plastic applied over the top. 

That's it in simple terms, you should find the detailed information on the web search. 


Regards


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Firestone makes a self adhering torch applied base sheet, it's like a very thin smooth modified bitumen. Certainteed also makes a self adhering torch applied base sheet called black diamond.
> 
> If I were putting modified on my house I would most likely install a fiberboard over the wood, double layer of glass base over the fiber board, smooth torch modified and granulated torch cap with all accessories previously mentioned.
> 
> ...


thanks so much for the input grumpy! yea currently there is some fiberglass batts i think. one bid is to add r38 blown in fiberglass for $2k. i guess thats my best option? its way cheaper than spray foam too.

for the roof the contractor keeps insisting that i just need a base sheet and the cap =/ so i dont know what to say.


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## rodeo (Dec 1, 2007)

IMO, in a cold clime, insulating above the deck with ISO boards is FAR superior to sprayfoam below the deck/between rafters.
Sprayfoam is best used in situations where starting over, (ie: reroofing) is not an option.

Many contractors view a thick layer of ISO board above the deck as cutting into their profit margin or they might strip out large areas of that ISO as a shortcut to facilitate drainage. Thats how my new flat roof got botched.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

rodeo said:


> IMO, in a cold clime, insulating above the deck with ISO boards is FAR superior to sprayfoam below the deck/between rafters.
> Sprayfoam is best used in situations where starting over, (ie: reroofing) is not an option.
> 
> Many contractors view a thick layer of ISO board above the deck as cutting into their profit margin or they might strip out large areas of that ISO as a shortcut to facilitate drainage. Thats how my new flat roof got botched.


thanks for the comment. can you please tell me more? how did your new roof get botched? becase of the lack of iso boards under the roof?


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## rodeo (Dec 1, 2007)

The following is a list of roof botches. I have a 60 square totally flat, unvented, durolast roof with 7/16 osb deck and 2x8 rafters that span 11.5 ft from bearing wall to bearing wall.

1. thinned out ISO board above the deck. I was supposed to have 3 inches throughout but the contractor thinned out many sections down to 1/4 fanfold underlayment. Those areas now are "cold deck" and unvented.

2. terrible rafter repair. My whole roof structure was "sunken" - that is, most of the rafters were bowed. The contractor didnt want to sister the rafters - the most he would do was "tail" a few rafters - a 2 ft long sister to buttress a rotten end of a rafter. I didnt know it at the time of tearoff, but a sunken structure is a common problem with flat roofs. Yet my contractor saw the bowing and didnt make a peep. Bowed rafters are how ponds are born. Roofers who tell you that tapered insulation are the only way to fix ponds are being dishonest with you and are only trying to hide their laziness or morbid fear of basic carpentry.

3. Improper substrate preparation - this error relates to #1, the thinning of the iso boards. In addition to providing R value above the deck, ISO boards also provide a softer surface for the durolast to lay on. You dont want sharpish projections pushing up against the roof membrane like nailheads, plywood endgrain etc. Some areas on my roof were thinned down right to the wood deck - and beyond. Yes - beyond. All along the perimeter of my roof, a 6 inch wide section of decking was removed in a frantic ultrahack effort to acheive drainage. That whole area is full of sharp knobby feeling areas pushing up taut against the membrane. If I step there, I could damage the membrane - especially after a few years when this stuff gets more brittle. See picture.

4. No venting improvements. There is more than one class of venting. Venting of cold decks is one. Edge venting is another. Even with a warm deck design, edge venting might still be a good idea. It depends on how your flat roof transitions to the walls etc. My flat roof transitions into shingled mansard side roofs - no parapet wall. That mansard roof should have been vented right at the top where it meets the flat. Like half of a ridge vent. It traps so much moisture there that "hoar frost" occurs beneath the deck right at the top.

5. Material incompatibility - PVC membranes are not supposed to touch asphalt. My durolast membrane is full of tar specks all over the place - topside and underside. I can clean off the topside specks but not the ones on the underside. Their was no effort made by my contractor to keep the area free of asphalt debris. Also, where the flat meets the mansard, the durolast overlaps the shingles directly. Shingles are asphalt, same rules apply. There are separator sheets for this purpose but my contractor didnt give a hoot.

There's more, but those are the biggies, and enuf rambling - for now


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

wow!!!!. thanks for the detailed reply. very good to know!

how long ago was this? why did you pick such a contractor? or did you? whats a mansard roof? because my flat roof transitions over to a steeper shingle roof


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

federer said:


> for the roof the contractor keeps insisting that i just need a base sheet and the cap =/ so i dont know what to say.


He can insist all he wants, and he'd be right. This is the MINIMUM. Do you want the minimum 10 year roof on your house? Do you want to replace this roof again in 10 years? He's absolutely right it is acceptable, if you want a cheap disposable roof.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> He can insist all he wants, and he'd be right. This is the MINIMUM. Do you want the minimum 10 year roof on your house? Do you want to replace this roof again in 10 years? He's absolutely right it is acceptable, if you want a cheap disposable roof.


thanks grumpy!! so how do you go about telling a contractor this is what you want instead...

by the way you dont seem so grumpy


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## rodeo (Dec 1, 2007)

Sounds like you also have a mansard roof just like mine - steep and shingled. Hows the venting on yours?

Yeah, its 3 years ago now that I had my reroof yet it still feels like yesterday. Its pretty much been crisis mode here ever since as I struggle to devise workarounds to make the roof last.

The contractor, Roof Management Inc. out of Farmington Hills Michigan, was recommended to me by the Durolast factory sales rep. 

Any contractors recommended by a sales rep should be rejected outright. Their interests do not coincide with yours.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

federer said:


> thanks grumpy!! so how do you go about telling a contractor this is what you want instead...
> 
> by the way you dont seem so grumpy


Did you already sign the contract? If not you have all the power, if he doesn't want to do what you want; find someone who does. If you already signed the contract for the 10 year roof, and he doesn't want to change the specification, I don;'t have any advice but to call a lawyer if you want to get out of a contract. HOWEVER, I don't know of any contractor who would say no to more work and more profit. 

Simply tell the contractor that his proposed specification is for a 10-12 year roof and that you really want something better. Tell him you are willing to pay for a 20 year roof and see what he says. I doubt there will be any argument.


As for me being Grumpy, ask anyone who has worked for me or any colleague whom I have known for years and they will tell you this nice guy routine is an act.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

rodeo said:


> Any contractors recommended by a sales rep should be rejected outright. Their interests do not coincide with yours.


I wouldn't necessarily agree, but I do see the logic. I get alot of referrals from one manufacturer in particular, but those leads come from the website.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> Did you already sign the contract? If not you have all the power, if he doesn't want to do what you want; find someone who does. If you already signed the contract for the 10 year roof, and he doesn't want to change the specification, I don;'t have any advice but to call a lawyer if you want to get out of a contract. HOWEVER, I don't know of any contractor who would say no to more work and more profit.
> 
> Simply tell the contractor that his proposed specification is for a 10-12 year roof and that you really want something better. Tell him you are willing to pay for a 20 year roof and see what he says. I doubt there will be any argument.
> 
> ...


hehehe. i am glad i dont work for you then :laughing:

i havent signed teh contract yet, but the other roofers i am looking at are even worse i think...so its the least of all evils kind of game. the sales rep himself is real nice; but the rest of the team dont act as patient with all my questions,etc. you are right! i should just tell him i am willing to pay to get a 20yr roof. duh! stupid me... thanks grumpy!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

rodeo said:


> Sounds like you also have a mansard roof just like mine - steep and shingled. Hows the venting on yours?
> 
> Yeah, its 3 years ago now that I had my reroof yet it still feels like yesterday. Its pretty much been crisis mode here ever since as I struggle to devise workarounds to make the roof last.
> 
> ...


i have to agree....sales rep prob has something in it for them to recommend someone....


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## rodeo (Dec 1, 2007)

Its certainly not true that ALL sales reps are unethical, I probably should have prefaced my earlier comment.

I have spoke with a sales rep from Fibretite who warned me without me asking him first that I could be facing a total tearoff and that recovering is usually a bad idea. He was straight up.

Durolast, on the other hand, has embraced the recover market and pitches it aggressively. It makes up like 3/4 of their market. I was naive enough at that time to fall for their rosy prediction that a recover was a realistic, and therefore much cheaper option.

Your flat roof is 800 sq ft? What are the dimensions and how many penetrations are there? The mod app is probably the cheapest way to go, but I've never messed with it. I have heard that it is doable by the diy types because you dont need to mess around with hot tar kettles but that it still has its tricks and bad installations are very common.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

in my case its not diy, because they are torching it down to the base sheet. i am not sure of my dimensions actually. what does penetrations mean?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

ok so i finally paid down the deposit yesturday. what color shingles would be best? or does it not matter?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

A common color is weatherwood or an Earthtone cedar.What color siding and/or trim do you have?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

john! thanks for chiming in. my siding is white. but its pretty dirty lol


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

I love a black roof with white siding and black trim,IMO looks really sharp:thumbsup:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

by the way this is the proposal they gave me


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

I think its a good choice.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

p { margin-bottom: 0in; }p.western { font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 9pt; font-weight: bold; }p.cjk { font-size: 9pt; font-weight: bold; } *We hereby propose to furnish all materials and perform all the labor necessary for the completion of:
*

The removal of the existing 1 layer shingled and flat roof from the house. Replace 3 sheets of plywood with ½” CDX plywood. The installation of the following fiberglass shingles with 15 lb felt. The installation of pipe collars, aluminum apron flashing and chimney flashing. The installation of Ice and Water Guard in the valleys and on rear low-sloped roof. The installation of aluminum drip edge on the rake and gutter edges. The installation of Firestone #180 modified bitumen 12-year roofing material on flat roof. All material fastened per manufacturers requirements. Trash to be removed from jobsite. Nails are magnetically removed from the ground. The house and shrubs are protected to the best of our ability. Homeowner is responsible to ensure selection of material and colors are in compliance with their Homeowners Association requirements and in accordance with County codes. Firestone guarantees their product for a period of 12 years with proper maintenance and S&K Roofing, Siding and Windows, Inc. will provide quality workmanship with a 10-year warranty against leaks or defects in workmanship.


*Types of Roofing Material:*
____ CertainTeed XT 25 year fiberglass shingles ................................................................................................. *$6,483.00*
____ CertainTeed Landmark 30 year AR fiberglass shingles .................................................................................. *$6,787.00*


Shingle Color Choice (Standard Colors Only Required):_________________________________


_*All material is guaranteed to be as specified and the above work to be performed as stated for the sums above.*_


The following items are not included in contract price. 
The replacement of rotten plywood found or installation of new plywood will be done at a cost of $2.50 per square foot.
The replacement of rotten 1 x 6 wood planks found will be done at a cost of $3.50 per linear foot.
(Please place a check next to your selection, leave blank if you do not want any options).
*It Is Recommended That Proper Attic Ventilation Be Installed To Uphold The Manufacturers Warranty.*
____ The installation of Ice and Water Guard on the 1st three feet from the gutter edge (with above work only) …….... *$54.00*
____ The installation of Ice and Water Guard on the 1st six feet from the gutter edge (with above work only) ………..... *$108.00*
*IMPORTANT NOTES: * 


Protect your belongings in the attic, as sawdust will enter the attic during the process of shingle vent installation.
We will remove any items attached to the roof (i.e., satellite dishes; basketball nets; antennas) and they will NOT be reinstalled. We cannot re-install satellite dishes as they must be installed by a satellite TV contractor.
We will not remove or re-install gutter covers, screens or helmets. Please notify our office if you have a gutter cover system prior to commencement of work.
We will not be held responsible for existing skylights leaking, replacement is recommended.
We will not be held responsible for wicking brick or mortar.
All metal roofing material will exhibit some oil canning in direct angles of sunlight, copper is especially sensitive to this.
 *Quotation is valid for 10 days from date of proposal. * 
*Signed Proposal, 1/3 Deposit and Pertinent Color and Option Selections Required for Scheduling * 
*Balance Due Upon Completion*


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i know noone cares anymore, but my new roof is coming on thursday!!! cant wait. will post pics, unless you guys dont want to see the before and after


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## Lulimet (Jul 26, 2010)

If we didn't want to see pics we wouldn't have made this thread 8 pages long. :yes:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

lol i will post some before pics gimme a hour


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*day before apocalpse*

heres some pics from when they dropped off materials today. stay tuned for tomorrow when the real doo doo goes down!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

what do you guys think?


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## Lulimet (Jul 26, 2010)

I thought you were going with ce3rtainteed shingles?
Or maybe they are for a different delivery.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yea i got certainteed. pic includes seperate delivery


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## valueremodeling (Oct 26, 2010)

Sorry did realize you already completed the project. I take my comment back.


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

I think you are a little late for suggestions:huh:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

no its ok-you are welcome to do suggestions-maybe i can use it next time when this roof fails


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

So whats up with your roof?Bad weather or fair weather roofers?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

hehe i am happy with the contractor. let me post up some pics. 2 full days. crazy weekend


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

*the moment you have been waiting for*

some pics from day 1-they had to do a lot of work after the decking was removed. i think pics say more than i can. please feel free to comment! (you can laugh):laughing:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

theres more pics posted in my album if you want to see more!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

these are pics from day 2


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

A few things.The base used was a very cheap product,we are not even allowed to use it here anymore.Not enough fasteners in the base.Sporatic bleedout on the seams,I like to see quarter to half inch.It also looks to me like he only torched the seams.Did you see him roll the torchon up and then unroll as he was torching or did he lay it all out and then torch it:no:When he overlapped endlaps did he scrape granules off,it looks like he used primerCan I see a few more pics,do you have anymore pics of chimney area and perimeter.My question mark isn`t working for some reason.Don`t want to worry you because I know you did your research,but this contractor does not know how to properly install the torchdown.Do you have any pics of the shingle work.C mon Federer,you did this yourself,right,right:wink:If you did this I`ll be easy on you


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

Oh and the reverse lap at the gutter.I don`t want to burst your bubble but I have torched for many years and its actually a passion of mine.I just want to give you an honest opinion.I wont be the only one.The best thing you could do is use what you have there for a base sheet and get another layer installed over that.If I was closer I would help you out for nothing.I hate to see a botched job like that,especially after you did all your homework


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

wow....really????? thats pretty devastating. i paid a boatload of money for this........


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news,I just wanted to know how the project was going.You know,you might not have any immediate issues.I wouldn't have said anything if they just made a small mistake.Were you watching them?I guess they don't know you're a frequent visitor to a roofing forum


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't know much about torch-down , but the chimney flashing is cheap. No counter flashing;http://www.rumford.com/chimneys/flashing.html

http://www.rd.com/17758/article17758.html Caulking is a secondary line of defense.....

Gary


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news,I just wanted to know how the project was going.You know,you might not have any immediate issues.I wouldn't have said anything if they just made a small mistake.Were you watching them?I guess they don't know you're a frequent visitor to a roofing forum


wow....damn...so i still have 2/3 to pay for my balance. how do you go about discussing your concerns with the contractor about something like this? i thought the crew did a great job too....i was up there the entire time. total of like 18hrs on the roof with them! they dont know i am on this forum


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> I don't know much about torch-down , but the chimney flashing is cheap. No counter flashing;http://www.rumford.com/chimneys/flashing.html
> 
> http://www.rd.com/17758/article17758.html Caulking is a secondary line of defense.....
> 
> Gary


so the intermediate pic of teh chimney earlier in the post is not sufficient?


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> A few things.The base used was a very cheap product,we are not even allowed to use it here anymore.Not enough fasteners in the base.Sporatic bleedout on the seams,I like to see quarter to half inch.It also looks to me like he only torched the seams.Did you see him roll the torchon up and then unroll as he was torching or did he lay it all out and then torch it:no:When he overlapped endlaps did he scrape granules off,it looks like he used primerCan I see a few more pics,do you have anymore pics of chimney area and perimeter.My question mark isn`t working for some reason.Don`t want to worry you because I know you did your research,but this contractor does not know how to properly install the torchdown.Do you have any pics of the shingle work.C mon Federer,you did this yourself,right,right:wink:If you did this I`ll be easy on you


where are you located? the base used was the firestone stuff. it matches my mod bit doesnt it? for the bleedout they did go back and bleed it out for all the seams as far as i can see. they did roll it up and torch the entire roll before putting it down. i actually have a video but i dont know how to post it here. they did use primer on the drip edges. let me post more shingles side for you to look at. thanks so much for your input!!


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

more pics of shingle side and perimeter:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)




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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

federer said:


> where are you located? the base used was the firestone stuff. it matches my mod bit doesnt it? for the bleedout they did go back and bleed it out for all the seams as far as i can see. they did roll it up and torch the entire roll before putting it down. i actually have a video but i dont know how to post it here. they did use primer on the drip edges. let me post more shingles side for you to look at. thanks so much for your input!!


The base used on your project is solely for fire protection(it isn't even water resistant.We've used it to torch down our base to,but never solely as a base.So you have a 1-ply system.Yes it is compatible with your product,but is the cheapest product.Our nailed base has a smooth surface(film)on one side and sanded on the other and is much thicker and just a better product all around.As far as your shingles they look good.They were racked though and some manufacturers will not honor their warranty if racked.On the endlaps of the torchon did they scrape the granules off where its overlapped?The bleedout is ridiculous,they gave it way too much heat,which actually can give you weak points in the membrane.All of that bleedout should have been covered with granules otherwise the sun will deteriorate the bleedout and can/will cause leaks.I would discuss this with your contractor.I'm just giving you my professional opinion.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> The base used on your project is solely for fire protection(it isn't even water resistant.We've used it to torch down our base to,but never solely as a base.So you have a 1-ply system.Yes it is compatible with your product,but is the cheapest product.Our nailed base has a smooth surface(film)on one side and sanded on the other and is much thicker and just a better product all around.As far as your shingles they look good.They were racked though and some manufacturers will not honor their warranty if racked.On the endlaps of the torchon did they scrape the granules off where its overlapped?The bleedout is ridiculous,they gave it way too much heat,which actually can give you weak points in the membrane.All of that bleedout should have been covered with granules otherwise the sun will deteriorate the bleedout and can/will cause leaks.I would discuss this with your contractor.I'm just giving you my professional opinion.


i appreciate the feedback! thanks so much. thats why i am on here so i can get good feedback from guys like you. what do you suggest i say to start the conversation with the roofer? also, where do i go to get the paper for my warranty for the shingle roof? thanks again  if you are ever in the area let me know you can be a overnight guest


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

federer said:


> these are pics from day 2


The 4th pic down where the guy is torching the strip on the edge,the second row of torchon is not torched yet.The only way for him to torch that now is by torching the seam only and the way he is torching the strip on the edge,it is near impossible to get it fully bonded.Any stripping(flashing) should always be torched in small strips to ensure a full bond.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so...wha tdo you think is the life expectanacy of this roof?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

Do you have much snowfall where you are?Its hard to say the life expectancy.I have torchon roofs(1 ply)properly installed some that are in their 15th year and still look very good.The good thing about torchon is it is very easy to repair and should major problems arise it makes a good base for another torchon roof.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

johnk said:


> Do you have much snowfall where you are?Its hard to say the life expectancy.I have torchon roofs(1 ply)properly installed some that are in their 15th year and still look very good.The good thing about torchon is it is very easy to repair and should major problems arise it makes a good base for another torchon roof.


its hit and miss. last winter we had the record blizzard here. over 40inches of snow. it was a disaster! how can i get the contractor to come back and remedy the roof. i guess the good news is the shingles is ok at least. how do i obtain the warranty?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

federer said:


> its hit and miss. last winter we had the record blizzard here. over 40inches of snow. it was a disaster! how can i get the contractor to come back and remedy the roof. i guess the good news is the shingles is ok at least. how do i obtain the warranty?


If you still owe them money,thats a good incentive to get them out.As far as the warranty,you need the original receipt for materials,of course every manufacturer is different.You can go to their website more info on this.I as a contractor would take care of this.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i just registered for their warranty on the website. thanks. i think since the roofers gave me a 10yr warranty on their work i am going to just go with it and see what happens. i dont want to go through the hassle of going back and forth and try to get them to make it better....sigh


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

so anyone else have other thoughts/comments?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

Can I? :wink: J/K Just wish you the best of luck and hope it holds out for you.Take care


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

lol of course you can john-i appreciate all the comments you have given. thanks


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## Hockey88 (Nov 24, 2010)

*Thanks for your expertise*

Hey, just want to tell you that based on all your advice I just took some bids on contract to install an Firestone 180 roof with galvanized drip edge and #30 lb paper with 1/2 of fiberglass insulation and fiberglass base sheet on a section of my 800 square foot house in Maryland. The best quote is $5700. Anything else you would recommend? Thanks again. Bob 




Grumpy said:


> Ice shield under a mod bit is ridiculious!
> 
> First layer should be a fiberglass reinforced base sheet, something like a CertainTeed glass base or Firestone's equivelent. I usually doulbe up my base also called half lapping where we install the 3' roll with an 18" exposure. The base sheets are most often mechanically fastened using metal button cap nails or screws and plates.
> 
> ...


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Hockey88 said:


> Hey, just want to tell you that based on all your advice I just took some bids on contract to install an Firestone 180 roof with galvanized drip edge and #30 lb paper with 1/2 of fiberglass insulation and fiberglass base sheet on a section of my 800 square foot house in Maryland. The best quote is $5700. Anything else you would recommend? Thanks again. Bob


hey bob-
where in md are you???

i am no expert, but put a pic up of your roof and i can see what may be best. i did crazy research before doing my re roof. whatever you decide in the end, make sure the contractor is someone you are comfortable with. the product is one half, the other half is good installation.


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## KCB (Jun 28, 2010)

H. A. S. said:


> Looks like the neighbor's house needs some new siding, too.:whistling2:


man how do they get away with that


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## KCB (Jun 28, 2010)

I can tell you right now , your 1st leak is going to develope around the fireplace.That will never last .


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

KCB said:


> I can tell you right now , your 1st leak is going to develope around the fireplace.That will never last .


thanks for the input-what do you think they shouldve done with the fireplace flashing?


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