# Yankee gutter resurfacing options



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Option 3. is the best idea, I just think he's going about it wrong.

1. Tear existing membrane out.
2. Create a proper slop by using lumber or metal.
3. Re-line the gutter.

You/your contractor will need to remove at least one course of tile, maybe two, in order to assure a proper tie-in.

In this situation you may be better off to get a quick quote/estimate from a couple gutter installers or metal installers/tinners, because there are metal options for properly lining that gutter.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

The only really long lasting solution is the line the gutter with a solderable metal. The trough needs to be re-graded to flow, but with wood, not tapered foam. We use copper most of the time, but terne or galvanized can be used, although both need to be kept painted and the cost savings disappears pretty quickly.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

seeyou said:


> The only really long lasting solution is the line the gutter with a solderable metal. The trough needs to be re-graded to flow, but with wood, not tapered foam. We use copper most of the time, but terne or galvanized can be used, although both need to be kept painted and the cost savings disappears pretty quickly.


Right now, the entire gutter already have a metal liner which is the flashing. It is above the plywood roof deck, and the membrane sits on it.

However it is leaking in a few spots. I am wondering how it could leak if it already have metal flashing all the way. Of course I have never peeled back the membrane to see, I don't know how those flashings are joint together. May be they have a seam?


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

The metal lining in that "your" situation is a back up and most likely installed by the roofer.
Hopefully lapped properly with laps caulked or covered in roof cement and then covered with the roofing membrane.

(In my area, that membrane has a life span of 20 years, give or take, when properly installed, in an area like Florida that expected life span is shortened by half, give or take.)

If the metal lining were installed by a tinner/metal man in the proper fashion it would be the finished product and not need to be covered by a roofing membrane, except at the portion where the metal lining runs under the one course of tile.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> The metal lining in that "your" situation is a back up and most likely installed by the roofer.
> Hopefully lapped properly with laps caulked or covered in roof cement and then covered with the roofing membrane.
> 
> (In my area, that membrane has a life span of 20 years, give or take, when properly installed, in an area like Florida that expected life span is shortened by half, give or take.)
> ...


I suspect that the metal is the original lining and the membrane was glued to it when it began to fail. In my experience, the membrane never works for very long glued to rusty metal.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

OK I see.

The metal lining I am sure is original, so that would date back say 42 years.

I thought it was some custom site fabricated sheet metal pieces that is continuous and seamless. Now in reading these posts may be it is not then, those are just sheet metal cut to fit, and in different planes there were overlapped and either nailed to the plywood and sealed with caulk or whatever which would explain the leak.

I have always assumed the membrane were laid on top because that's what the rest of the roof has below the tile, they simply extended the membrane to the edge instead of the edge of the tiles.

So, the best fix is to tear the gutter up, membrane and existing sheet metal below, and fabricate a new metal gutter that is soldered together?

I assume I have to remove one or two rows of tiles all the way around so the metal can be tucked under and tie to the existing roofing layer?

What type of professionals are needed to do this type of metal lining? A roofer? I have contacted a few gutter installers in the past they all took a look at this and said it's not what they do.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

miamicuse said:


> OK I see.
> 
> The metal lining I am sure is original, so that would date back say 42 years.
> 
> ...



Yes on the new metal. Yes on the tile removal. Probably only one row of tile. The back of the metal should be higher than the front edge so if the gutter gets clogged, it can't leak over the back edge. You'll need to remove enough tile to get the old metal out. 

You'll need a sheet metal oriented roofer. Gutter guys usually just squeeze out k-style gutter and hang it. 

Good luck.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

A 4th option would be remove the existing cap sheet, metal liner below. Add a 1/2 of cover board and a single ply membrane. The best option would be to remove everything and reframe it slope properly. 

Most importantly any idea here will work. The problem is and I think every professional roofer would agree is, not everyone can do this type of work and make it well, work. I would spend a lot of time talking to the roofers you are thinking about having do the work. This will be expensive, and if they have not done built in gutters like this before they can really mess it up.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt said:


> and if they have not done built in gutters like this before they can really mess it up.


I wish I saw this before I authorized the job.

I talked to over ten roofers in the last two weeks and NONE of them have seen anything I showed them.

Finally I decided not to mess with it for now, and just put a new membrane over it (the cheapest) and that should last me a few more years and then I will redo the whole thing. I hired this roofer to do it and he started today.

Around the corner the existing membrane was very uneven, so he cut a bit of it and we saw underneath it is a piece of custom metal. In other words, the entire metal liner, the top of the lip to the bottom across the gutter is one single piece of metal folded to that shape, even around the corner. I don't know where the seams are or if they are soldered together but it looks good, not rusted at all.

Unfortunately, and I don't know why the roofer did this. The existing membrane is blistering here and there, I thought he was going to clean it and smooth it out and add new membrane on top, but instead, he cut a thin piece of plywood and laid it at the bottom of the gutter, on top of the existing bad membrane, then he shoot roofing nails every few inches to secure the plywood to the existing gutter. I didn't know he was doing this until he almost finished. I asked him why he did that, and he said it is to secure the bottom of the gutter so the new membrane will not "bubble" up.

I said in the process he just added 300 new holes to my metal liner where before was impervious!!!

I can't believe it!

He said "should be OK, it's not going to leak, this wood is stronger than your metal".

I don't know what to do, I guess I just paid him $2500 to totally destroyed my metal liner.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Sorry to hear that, Sir.

I would keep a close eye on your gutter area both inside the home and on the outside, over the up coming months & years, things like this can leak into the structure of the home with out showing up on the interior at first and cause real structural issues with roof sheathing and wall studs, rafter tails, etc.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh no that is horrible. The metal liner is ruined now. You are correct the whole liner would have been folded in to match the structure. It is more then likely installed in 10' pieces and should have been soldered. 

Did he remove the bottom row of tiles? How far up did he get the new membrane up there? What kind of material did he use? If he used a granulated cap sheet like the one you had, he could have just cut the blisters and uneven areas out. If he used a EPDM he would have had to put a new substrate down, like the plywood or thin insulation. Putting a new cap sheet on would have been the cheepest. 

I'm sorry about what he did, I would just keep a close eye on it.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

If you lived in Richmond, and could wait about a year, I'd try to fit you in. There are very few of us tinners around any more. There are alot of characters trying to take our place(s), but none have the understanding about what it takes to sweat the joints properly. Done correctly, the soldering iron won't be used in front of the joint. :no:
And on a 20" wide BIG, the panels can't exceed 20" (inches) in lenght. No less than 20 oz. copper either.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Tinner666 I am not in Richmond, but in Miami, Florida.

In case I need to find someone that is experienced in doing this type of work, how would I go about doing that? There is no "tinner" in the yellow pages like "carpenters" or "plumbers" right?

I need to find a roofer who knows how to handle metal? Do I call up roofers and ask them "do you do tinning"?

Is there a single question I can ask someone that will tell me if I found the right person or not?


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Also, is there a way to repair the holes of the metal liner in the future? Or not worth it just rip it out and redo?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

You'll need a roofer. One that can show you detailed pix of his work going back 15-20 years. Some of the pictures on the bottom of this page from my site are of seams over 10 years old. http://www.albertsroofing.com/Solder Details.htm

If you'll notice, all my soldering is done on top of the seam to draw the solder in and sweat the joint.
Can he show you pix like I took in the past year of his old stuff? Here's one titled 15 year old tin. I did the roof in 1990-1991 and this is what the seam looks like today. I'm still friends with clients that go back a long ways I often go back and check on the aging process.
I can also go to many places where others did the work and it's failing within a year. 
You need to find a tinner somehow. Have the prospect show his technique and examples.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I worked for Albert J Steppi roofing & metal work company in Orlando, Florida back in the early 90's.
They had/ran their own metal shop and their foremen at the time was an old school tinner from Chicago with near 40 years experience.

Simon roofing & sheet metal corp, has a few offices in Florida (including the Miami area) and they have a number of experienced tinners working for them.

You can also call metal fabrication shops and ask them if they can recommend a roofer, because a lot of the mom & pop type operations who have both roofing and metal work experience still pay some one else to fabricate their materials for them.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks tinner666 and Slyfox. I'll keep this in mind.

They have already messed up my gutter on one side, but I'll let them finish and just be prepared to tear it up in a year or two looking at redoing the metal liner.

I am still puzzled by why they need to put the membrane over the gutter liner, seems redundant unless it was to protect the metal liner. On second thought, may be rain dropping on the metal liner is too loud and they used the membrane to deafen the noise?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

miamicuse said:


> Thanks tinner666 and Slyfox. I'll keep this in mind.
> 
> They have already messed up my gutter on one side, but I'll let them finish and just be prepared to tear it up in a year or two looking at redoing the metal liner.
> 
> I am still puzzled by why they need to put the membrane over the gutter liner, seems redundant unless it was to protect the metal liner. On second thought, may be rain dropping on the metal liner is too loud and they used the membrane to deafen the noise?


I suspect it is because they know how to do membrane, but don't have a clue how to fabricate and install the metal properly. They probably won't do much damage, but they probably won't fix it either.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

The metal liner was probably leaking before. The company either could not fix it/ redo it, or it was just easier to go over it.

Metal liners like that are not the easiest thing to do in the world nor cheap. We have done a number of built in gutters with EPDM. Most of those are where two metal building eve edges meet. The originals there rely on caulking for the joints. It is cheaper to go over them with EPDM and tapered ISO if a slope is needed then to remove and build tapered pieces then solder it all together.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

So for the gutter where the bottom is now full of holes from the nail gun, I need to eventually refabricate that section completely right? Or is there a way I can hire someone to cut a rectangular strip to cover the holes and solder the edges?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

miamicuse said:


> So for the gutter where the bottom is now full of holes from the nail gun, I need to eventually refabricate that section completely right? Or is there a way I can hire someone to cut a rectangular strip to cover the holes and solder the edges?


 Those holes do not matter now. You're relying on whatever the current, top surface is. That is always the case. No matter what type roof matterial is being used anywhere, when the first line of defense,(The roof), is gone, it's gone. The underlying material will only hide the leak for a short period.
Don't concern yourself with those holes.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

1985gt said:


> The metal liner was probably leaking before. The company either could not fix it/ redo it, or it was just easier to go over it.


That is probably true. I went back up and walked around the gutter, looked at the repair, and found something really interesting.

The gutters seem to be quite nice and smooth along it's length. However, since it is a "wrap around" on the perimeter of the courtyard, it seems the "corners" are the trouble spots I went to look on the underside (had to remove the wood soffit panel from below, and noticed the plywood below showed sign of leaking, it's dry now but at some point in the past they were leaking).

So the corner spots were causing trouble.

See how nice the actual gutter is?










But at the corners where the two sections of gutter meets, the top looked like repair on repair on repair with patches...



















So, it seems may be my next step would be to hire someone to come and peel off the corners. Because my guess is however the metal gutter was made to connect at the corner, was either not done right or it has corroded and leaked. I need to have 4 custom corner pieces made and joined into the existing, correct?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

The new work did not go in to the corner? The corner is going to look a little messy anyway. Cold app is not a very clean thing to do and that maybe what you are seeing. I would just keep an eye on the corner and watch for leaking. I question the drains also. Looks like the drops were just caulked in place. I wouldn't expect that to last very long.


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## bobinphx (Nov 25, 2011)

wow.... I am no expert, but thats not how I would have done any of that!!! 

a couple of things that I see. 
1. were the tiles come together on the roof itself, there does not appear to be much of a valley. I notice that leaves are collecting there. they will dam up the water. I would suggest that the tiles be cut back a couple of inches and a real metal valley pan be make and installed. 

2. the brown flashing that is comming from the exterior wall needs to be U shaped and extend completely over the edge of the wall. You can see that the bend in the roofing material is already starting to crack at this edge. Metal covering it will help protect the roofing and will shed water better. 

3. The metal downspout collars need to be under the roofing??? I cant see how they will work being placed above the roofing surface... 

Personally, I would have a tinsmith come out and do the entire thing in copper. You will never have to do it again and it will be a selling point for the home. or you could use fiberglass and make the entire thing one big bathtube like system. Thats what I did on my flat roof and its great!!! Messing and stinky installing, but the finished product is great!!!!!!!!!


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