# Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right



## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

The list of violations might be endless.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

I'd love for you to point out whatever you can. One thing they told us when we bought the house was the breakers should be bigger... that they shouldn't have used those half breakers for every breaker in the main panel... but it passed inspections. They did recommend we replace our main panel to allow to have full sized breakers so everything wasn't so compact.

BTW, the top breaker on the right of our main panel is the breaker that we added to go to the sub panel. Everything else in the main panel was that way when we moved in. Everything else to the other panels (the last two pictures) are things we added.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

brric said:


> The list of violations might be endless.


Or longer!

You really need that electrician!


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

1. Service disconnect grounding conductors should be terminated with the neutral.
2. Bushings required on terminal adapters.
3. ALL panels past the service disco must have separated neutrals.
4. More missing bushings.
5.Individual conductors must be in a raceway.
6. 4 wire feeds required to ALL panels beyond service disco. Your electrician misinformed you.

Just for starters.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

It's good to know this work was all permitted and inspected.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

brric said:


> 1. Service disconnect grounding conductors should be terminated with the neutral.
> 2. Bushings required on terminal adapters.
> 3. ALL panels past the service disco must have separated neutrals.
> 4. More missing bushings.
> ...


7. Line and load conductors might be reversed at service disco.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

brric said:


> 1. Service disconnect grounding conductors should be terminated with the neutral.
> 2. Bushings required on terminal adapters.
> 3. ALL panels past the service disco must have separated neutrals.
> 4. More missing bushings.
> ...



About number 6... We were looking at that when we ran it. We bought the wire from Menards that came with two 2 gauge wires and one 4 gauge wire. It didn't include another wire. So, we were told too that because we didn't have 4 wires to the barn... only 2 hots and one neutral, that it's considered as a main service entrance and not a out building. So, one electrician my dad talked to said that I'm supposed to have the neutral and grounds connected in my barn for that reason.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> About number 6... We were looking at that when we ran it. We bought the wire from Menards that came with two 2 gauge wires and one 4 gauge wire. It didn't include another wire. So, we were told too that because we didn't have 4 wires to the barn... only 2 hots and one neutral, that it's considered as a main service entrance and not a out building. So, one electrician my dad talked to said that I'm supposed to have the neutral and grounds connected in my barn for that reason.


 Total crap.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

If I'm reading this right, you only ran 2 hots and a neutral out the to sub? No ground? Disconnect the feed. Do not use. If something develops a ground fault in the barn the way it is now, it won't trip a breaker, it'll just raise all the "grounded" metal parts of your electrical system and appliances/tools to 120V.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

brric said:


> 7. Line and load conductors might be reversed at service disco.


Ok, not to sound like a complete idiot... although I'm sure I am at this moment, I'm not sure what line and load are... I know hot, neutral and ground. Which of line and load is hot and neutral? I'm also not 100% sure what service disconnect means. 

To be honest, before I started this project, I thought the electrical company owned the electrical meter outside my house. At my previous house, when I knew absolutely nothing about electrical, my meter died and I called my electric company. They came out and replaced it for free. So I assumed since then they owned that. 

My dad informed me that is not correct. I own the meter and the wire out the top. There's a point above there that the electric company connects to my house. When he first came out and was starting to discuss my options to get electric out to my barn, he was suggesting we'd possibly branch off before the meter and add another meter at the barn and that's when he informed me that it's my equipment there... but then after a little bit of digging into it, it seemed more correct to just run a new breaker off the sub panel.

But when you say the lines might be reversed at the service disconnect, I'm thinking of where the electric company terminates their responsibility and I take on responsibility, which is above the meter on top of my house... I don't know how those would get reversed.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Good grief! I don't know where to begin?

First of all before doing anything, run your plan by the people in a forum like this. Then if there are any errors in what you plan to do, then changes can be made before you go out an purchase things and install them. Then you don't need to "re-do" anything.

To start, learn about subpanels as opposed to main panels. You run 4 wires from a main panel to a sub panel. 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground.

At the subpanel there is a separate neutral bar which is isolated from the metal case and ground bar. The bonding jumper is disconnected at the subpanel. Etc.

Then what state are you located in? Different states go by different versions of the National Electrical Code.

I would recommend that you go over your entire electrical installation starting with your service wires and main panel. One thing at a time. It may take months, but best to get things right.

Was a higher amperage main panel ever installed without contacting the electric company?


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

You are SO out of your league. I agree the list of violations is close to endless. It's amazing that someone can post these photos and think the only thing that might be wrong is the ground connections.

Mark


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

McSteve said:


> If I'm reading this right, you only ran 2 hots and a neutral out the to sub? No ground? Disconnect the feed. Do not use. If something develops a ground fault in the barn the way it is now, it won't trip a breaker, it'll just raise all the "grounded" metal parts of your electrical system and appliances/tools to 120V.


Even though I do have a ground rod at the barn?


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Billy_Bob said:


> Was a higher amperage main panel ever installed without contacting the electric company?


No, the main panel wasn't switched out. Only thing changed to the main panel was the 100 amp breaker added.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> Ok, not to sound like a complete idiot... although I'm sure I am at this moment, I'm not sure what line and load are... I know hot, neutral and ground. Which of line and load is hot and neutral? I'm also not 100% sure what service disconnect means.
> That great big black circuit breaker is the service disconnect.
> To be honest, before I started this project, I thought the electrical company owned the electrical meter outside my house. At my previous house, when I knew absolutely nothing about electrical, my meter died and I called my electric company. They came out and replaced it for free. So I assumed since then they owned that.
> The power company owns the meter.
> ...


 The wires from
the meter to the great big circuit breaker and the wire leaving the great big circuit breaker might possibly be reversed


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

brric said:


> 1. Service disconnect grounding conductors should be terminated with the neutral.
> 2. Bushings required on terminal adapters.
> 3. ALL panels past the service disco must have separated neutrals.
> 4. More missing bushings.
> ...


Also I'm not 100% sure what you mean by missing bushings... I think you mean the raceways to the outlet going out the side. When I first got done wiring the panel, I just wired one 110 outlet so I could just test. Since doing that, I put a piece there that screwed into the side and tightened down on the wire so it wasn't just hanging out the hole. I still haven't added any circuits other than the one 110 outlet.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> No, the main panel wasn't switched out. Only thing changed to the main panel was the 100 amp breaker added.


Ok that is good.

BTW, these guys are going to "let you have it" so to say. But stick with it and things can be corrected one at a time. As you learn you may want to post separate posts about one thing or another rather than having this one discussion for everything.

Anyway there is plenty to learn, so stay tuned!

Now what size is your electric service? Or the amperage on the main panel breakers? Like 200? 100?

Next... If you run a wire through a metal hole, that metal has sharp edges on it. That can cut into the wire and sparks will fly!

Use one of these through each opening...


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

brric said:


> The wires from
> the meter to the great big circuit breaker and the wire leaving the great big circuit breaker might possibly be reversed



If that were the case, wouldn't you think it would've failed the inspections when we bought the house? I would've hoped so. The insurance company hired an inspector and we also hired a separate inspector and it passed both. That hasn't changed since I did this work. The only thing we did since we bought it was add the sub panel (that has the 3 breakers in the picture) and the other sub panel (with the one breaker in the picture).


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> Also I'm not 100% sure what you mean by missing bushings... I think you mean the raceways to the outlet going out the side. When I first got done wiring the panel, I just wired one 110 outlet so I could just test. Since doing that, I put a piece there that screwed into the side and tightened down on the wire so it wasn't just hanging out the hole. I still haven't added any circuits other than the one 110 outlet.










A bushing belongs on the threaded terminal adapters.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

dorlow said:


> Even though I do have a ground rod at the barn?


Right. This is why I kinda hate the term "ground". The ground rod has absolutely no bearing on the proper functioning of a circuit. It exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> If that were the case, wouldn't you think it would've failed the inspections when we bought the house? I would've hoped so. The insurance company hired an inspector and we also hired a separate inspector and it passed both. That hasn't changed since I did this work. The only thing we did since we bought it was add the sub panel (that has the 3 breakers in the picture) and the other sub panel (with the one breaker in the picture).


 Get their names and have them reported for total incompetence.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Billy_Bob said:


> Ok that is good.
> 
> BTW, these guys are going to "let you have it" so to say. But stick with it and things can be corrected one at a time. As you learn you may want to post separate posts about one thing or another rather than having this one discussion for everything.
> 
> ...


Ok, our house has 150 amp service. Actually while doing this project, I learned our electric company provides 200 amps to the pole. I can't figure out why they only installed 150 amp service in the house. But we didn't change any of that with this project.

About the picture above that has the clamp on it, every opening in my box has something like that now. I didn't have it when I took the picture, but I did add it yesterday. I knew it wasn't right, but it was a long time coming when I got it in and I just wanted to see if it worked... figured it would be OK for me to test a light in my barn for a day before I went to the store and got the clamp thing.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

brric said:


> A bushing belongs on the threaded terminal adapters.



Ok, I just googled pictures of bushings on threaded terminal adapters and I believe I have that all right. I have conduit for everything other than the one outlet in the barn. All conduit has threads at the end and I bought ends that screwed on that to hold it tight to the electrical box.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> About the picture above that has the clamp on it, every opening in my box has something like that now. I didn't have it when I took the picture, but I did add it yesterday.


Good!

As for an above suggestion to not have power on to the barn, that is a good idea for now.

Now the following link shows what year of electric code each state is on. There are different requirements depending on the year. What year is your state on?

http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/NECadoption/implement.cfm


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

McSteve said:


> Right. This is why I kinda hate the term "ground". The ground rod has absolutely no bearing on the proper functioning of a circuit. It exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events.



So, I'd hate to dig up my trench and run another wire. Should I follow my dad's electrical friend's advice and hook the ground bar back to the neutral bar in the box in the barn? My dad says he's been an electrician for like 20 years so he knows for sure his advice is right... but I don't know him...


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

You need to figure out what code cycle your area is under. Under the 1996 and later NEC, you can't bond the neutral and ground in a subpanel. Prior to 1996, you could bond the neutral and ground in a detached building's sub-panel, but only if there were no other metallic paths between the buildings, including water/gas pipes, phone lines, CATV, etc.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> So, I'd hate to dig up my trench and run another wire. Should I follow my dad's electrical friend's advice and hook the ground bar back to the neutral bar in the box in the barn? My dad says he's been an electrician for like 20 years so he knows for sure his advice is right... but I don't know him...


We can only advise you how to do things that are code compliant. You seem destined to doit your own way or the way someone told you to do it incorrectly. Have at it and good luck.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Wait, back up a bit. Why would you have to open up the trench to add another wire? Is it buried directly in the ground without conduit? What kind of wire is that?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

dorlow said:


> Ok, so I know very little about electrical other than what others have told me.


When I first came across this thread and its title,

"Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right" 

I assumed it was maybe about a 120V duplex outlet so I clicked on it. Then I read the first line I quoted above and was like yeah its about a duplex. 

BOY WAS I WRONG.

dorlow....I gotta give you a freakin "A" for effort. For you to realize that you know very little about electrical and to attempt a project of this magnitude says something. 

Whether that something is good or bad is left up to the reader.

That being said, some things are left to the pros. If you were determined to DIY, you probably could of hired a pro and paid him to consult only.

Good luck and install lots of rubber mats in that barn.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Should I follow my dad's electrical friend's advice and hook the ground bar back to the neutral bar in the box in the barn?


NO...the ground bar and neutral bar should be seperate in a sub-panel (assuming you are on a code cycle post 1996, as McSteve and Billy Bob asked....twice  )


If you have direct bury cable, then yes you'll have to dig it all up and add a grounding conductor......well not ADD really. You'll have to replace your cable with cable (or conduit and ind. conductors :yes: :thumbsup: do it ) that has all 4 conductors in the same cable....or conduit :yes::yes::thumbsup::thumbsup:


OOPS, just picked up on the #2 conductors...I've never seen UF cable that big, so you'll probably have to dig it up either way.....unless of course you already have *CONDUIT AND IND. CONDUCTORS*

........or maybe, since you're digging anyway...you could change over to conduit and ind. conductors **shrug**....I dunno


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

As others have mentioned, your current installation is extremely dangerous and should be disconnected immediately. Any ground fault anywhere in your barn will electrify all of the "grounded" metal, your subpanel, and your ground rod. No circuit breakers will trip, and you won't know about it until you find out the hard way. Ground rods provide no protection whatsoever from shock or ground faults. That's not what they're for. While you are prohibited by code from bonding neutral and ground in that panel, you are also prohibited from feeding it with a 3-wire feed. Your dad's friend is sort of right about one thing: it would be safer with neutral and ground bonded in the subpanel. Not code compliant, but MUCH safer. At least then the grounding system in the barn would be bonded to the system neutral, which is absolutely required for proper operation of the equipment grounding system. It's just that the one and only bond between neutral and ground is supposed to be at the service disconnect.

As others have said, you have the wrong wire. You need 4-conductor, and it needs to be correctly sized and rated for burial. Your wire is probably not rated for burial, and will disintegrate within a year or so.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Dorlow.,

I will ask a simple question real quick which state are you in and if you are in one of the Midwestern states due I did catch say Mendards store so I can able dail in pretty quick.

State of Wisconsin is on 2008 but will be ramp up with 2011 soon ( I do not know which date it will be effective ) ( local codes may trump few items so there is too many to list so will dealt with it later if that the case ) 

State of Minnesota is pretty much set for 2011 for sure. ( I think they went on last year with few modifactions )

For other states I am not sure due they were in progess of changing the code requirment.

but most case it will be on 2008 or later verison ( few still useing 2005)

Now for your project few guys allready address this to you. I just can not really comment how bad it is without resorting to my native langunge. (French)

Was this permit used on this project ??

If you want to get this fixed right let us know we can steer you right but I know you may not like the respondes from us but we have to stay with the codes.

Merci.
Marc


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

Holy ****  :laughing:


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

McSteve said:


> Wait, back up a bit. Why would you have to open up the trench to add another wire? Is it buried directly in the ground without conduit? What kind of wire is that?


I was told it was wire rated for direct bury. I have conduit going into the ground and out of the ground. But what's in the ground during the run has no conduit. I talked to a few different electricians before making that decision. They said it's best to use wire that is rated to not need conduit because if water gets in the conduit, the wire might as well be sitting in a puddle of water. Where with it buried directly, then the water just seeps in the ground below.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

frenchelectrican said:


> Dorlow.,
> 
> I will ask a simple question real quick which state are you in and if you are in one of the Midwestern states due I did catch say Mendards store so I can able dail in pretty quick.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't have posted this forum post if I didn't want it right. But at the same time, I can't afford to have someone come out. 

Now, according to the one electrician, seeing I only sent out the two hots and the neutral, my barn is being wired like it's a "first source." Is that correct? I mean the electric company doesn't give me a ground wire, do they? So, seeing I have the two hots and one neutral, can't I just wire my barn like it's a first source? 

A permit wasn't used for this project. And I didn't get a permit because another electric company that gave me a quote said not to. They told me "the barn has been here for years... no one will ever suspect anything. So if it makes you feel better at night to pay $300 for a permit, then go ahead... but I wouldn't."


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

mpoulton said:


> As others have said, you have the wrong wire. You need 4-conductor, and it needs to be correctly sized and rated for burial. Your wire is probably not rated for burial, and will disintegrate within a year or so.


Menards told me it was rated for direct burial. I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. The guys I talked to there sounded like they really knew there stuff. Another Menards store I went to the guy that worked there didn't know a thing... so I think I can tell when I'm talking to someone that knows their stuff versus someone that doesn't.

Looking at Menards site, this is the stuff I got...

http://menards.com/main/electrical/...-4-aluminum-urd-per-foot/p-1469814-c-6441.htm


2-2-4 Aluminum URD, Per Foot



Used to Connect the Transformer to the Meter Base
Suitable for Direct Burial
Cross-Linked Polyethylene Insulation
Triple Rated RHH or RHW-2 or USE-2
Sold Per Foot
Special Orders Must be Purchased in Full Reel Quantities


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## Hardway (Dec 28, 2011)

McSteve said:


> Right. This is why I kinda hate the term "ground". The ground rod has absolutely no bearing on the proper functioning of a circuit. It exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events.


McSteve:

If the grounding rod exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events. Where does the so called circuit ground come from? The circuit ground is not provided by the power company, two hot and a neutral. Unless I am missing something, please explain.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> ...A permit wasn't used for this project. And I didn't get a permit because another electric company that gave me a quote said not to. They told me "the barn has been here for years... no one will ever suspect anything. So if it makes you feel better at night to pay $300 for a permit, then go ahead... but I wouldn't."


I am speechless! (And being a blabbermouth, that is quite an unusual situation for me! )

Frankly I am sitting here with my mouth hanging open that they told you that!

Anyway electrical codes and electrical inspectors are for the protection of YOU, your family, your friends, your pets and animals, someone who may purchase your home in the future, and from financial loss due to fire or electrical malfunction.

An electrical inspection can also protect an electrician should someone be electrocuted or a building burn down. People are human and make mistakes. An inspector can spot an oversight or a mistake and say "Hey you need to fix that!" Then the electrician avoids anyone being electrocuted or a fire in the first place. Or if there is an accident, the electrician would be seen as taking due care to be sure everything was safe by having an inspection.

But if something nasty happens, it is the fault of the electrician, and the electrician did not get a permit when he should have, then they are going to stick it to him!

Then so far as getting things inspected, the process is that you first go discuss what you plan to do with the electrical inspector. At that time the electrical inspector can spot things which are not correct, then you can change your plans. And if it is something like the wrong wire, then that could save you a LOT of money because you would then buy the correct wire the first time around.

Then when the inspector comes to look at your work, it is basically like what you are seeing here. Dangerous things are pointed out. Things which if corrected, will make it safer for you and your family. That is all, end of story.

Anyway I am sorry you have been the recipient of so much bad advice. You would be wise to at a minimum run your future projects by the people on an internet electrical forum. And let the discussion run its course. People on the internet make mistakes or give the wrong advice too, but someone else usually comes along and points out the error.


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> I am speechless! (And being a blabbermouth, that is quite an unusual situation for me! )
> 
> Frankly I am sitting here with my mouth hanging open that they told you that!


Get with the program bro this is the real world stories like this happen all the time


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

So, I just googled the ground and neutral wires for an out building again and came across this article...

http://masterslic.tripod.com/FAQ-2/18.html

It basically says to do what I did... 

But then towards the bottom, it says this...

A single branch circuit run to another building is not considered a sub panel.

So, then it makes me believe I need to do what my dad's electrician friend said and bond my ground and neutral together in the barn.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Hardway said:


> McSteve:
> 
> If the grounding rod exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events. Where does the so called circuit ground come from? The circuit ground is not provided by the power company, two hot and a neutral. Unless I am missing something, please explain.


Excellent question! The circuit ground (Equipment Grounding Conductor) originates from the neutral-ground bond in your main service panel.

As you probably know, current ordinarily flows from the hot wire, through a load, and back on the neutral. If the current flow is excessive, a breaker will trip.

In the event of a ground fault, where a hot wire comes in contact with something that is grounded, the ground wire bonded to neutral allows sufficient current to flow along a relatively safe & controlled path, in order to trip the breaker. The ground wire also insures that all metal parts of the electrical system, appliances, and in most cases, plumbing, are held to the same voltage potential as the neutral wire, which is zero volts.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

I have stuff to do today, so I will just make a few notes here for things to learn about/check into...

Aluminum Wire - Aluminum wire requires a larger gauge than copper wire. The gauge of wire used in the case of something like a far away barn depends on the distance to the barn, the maximum amperage which will ever be used at the barn, and the type of wire used (copper or aluminum).

Aluminum Wire Special Installation Main Lugs - When installing aluminum wire, you need to brush on "anti-oxidation" compound. Then tighten the lugs with an inch pound torque wrench to the inch pounds specified on the panel label or installation instructions. 12 inch pounds = 1 foot pound. Automotive torque wrenches are in foot pounds, Not inch pounds!

Voltage Drop - With long distances, the voltage "drops". The voltage at a plug might be 120 volts AC, then you use a small gauge 100 foot extension cord to power an air compressor, then the voltage at the end of that cord might be 80 volts! The compressor just "hums" and does not run. You determine wire gauge with a voltage drop calculator like this one...
http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/vd_calculator_initial.html

So what is the distance to your barn? That would be the one way length of the wire run including going up to the panels.

Grounds - Grounding is *very* important! Appliances with metal frames have those frames connected to the ground connection on an outlet. All metal covers, boxes, etc. associated with electrical wiring are connected (bonded) to ground.

A common occurrence is that a hot electrical wire rubs against a sharp metal object (because romex clamps were not used) or comes loose inside an electrical panel (because the connections were not properly torqued) and touches the metal object...

Then the metal frame can become energized! A person or animal touching that metal object can be electrocuted! And that metal object may be touching other metal objects like water piping, metal air conditioning duct work, the metal frame of a barn, water pipes and in turn water faucets, etc.

Anyway one loose wire somewhere can possibly energize all the metal objects in a house.

Protection from electrocution is by bonding (connecting) neutral to ground. Then when that hot wire touches the metal frame of something which is grounded, the circuit breaker trips! Everybody in the family is safe. Further protection is ground rods. This attempts to hold the electrical level to ground or makes an easier path for electricity to flow to ground than through a person's body. But that does not guarantee a person will not be electrocuted. Further protection is necessary.

GFCI Breakers / Outlets (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) - GFCI outlets are required in all wet areas. These detect electricity leaking (shorting) to ground, then INSTANTLY shut off the electricity.

So that hot electrical wire from a barn water warmer touches the metal case of the animals drinking water tank. There is no neutral to ground bond to the subpanel. Only 3 wires run to the subpanel. And the dog or the cow goes to the water tank to drink water and touches the metal tank. Then ZAP! One dead dog or cow. But Not in this case because we have installed a GFCI breaker or outlet. Electricity flows through the body of the cow or dog, then instantly before either knows it (about 1/40 of a second), the electricity is shut off. The cow and dog are safe! Yeaaaa!

Install GFCI breakers or outlets in all wet areas and other places the electrical code requires.

So what will the barn be used for? Animals?

Ground Loops - If you have neutral ground bonds at more than one location, you can get "ground loops". Google ground loops. All sorts of stuff on this. Electronic things hate ground loops. Best is one central ground which all other grounds are connected to (4th wire).

Loss of Neutral Wire - It is common for a main neutral wire to come loose. Many times because it was not torqued properly during installation. Too loose of a connection and it heats up under load. Then cools down when no load. Heat/cool/heat/cool... eventually the wire works itself loose... 

Then what? Then everything connected to ground in a subpanel can become "hot" if hot is bonded to neutral at the subpanel. Hot wire to appliance which is turned on, electricity back through circuit neutral to subpanel, no return to neutral at the main panel because the wire came loose, then travels to ground via the neutral/ground bond at the subpanel, then all metal cases connected to ground then become energized!

Better is a 4th wire isolated from ground at a subpanel. Neutral wire comes loose, then nothing works! And you can notice the problem as well since nothing is working (120 volt circuits).

Best with 4 wires to a subpanel.

Bottom Line: Modern electrical codes have safeties and backup safeties to protect you and your family (and rover). If one thing fails, there is something else there to protect you. These things have been well thought out and are there because of past electrical accidents. They are there to prevent these things from happening again.

So do what the code says and you will have a safe electrical system!


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Billy_Bob said:


> Aluminum Wire - Aluminum wire requires a larger gauge than copper wire. The gauge of wire used in the case of something like a far away barn depends on the distance to the barn, the maximum amperage which will ever be used at the barn, and the type of wire used (copper or aluminum).
> !


I ran the distance into a distance calculator along with the type of wire and it said it was good up to 108 feet. I ran it about 90 feet.



Billy_Bob said:


> Aluminum Wire Special Installation Main Lugs - When installing aluminum wire, you need to brush on "anti-oxidation" compound. Then tighten the lugs with an inch pound torque wrench to the inch pounds specified on the panel label or installation instructions. 12 inch pounds = 1 foot pound. Automotive torque wrenches are in foot pounds, Not inch pounds!
> !


I did hear with aluminum that I do need to tighten them again later because they do get a little loose over time. I was planning on doing that.



Billy_Bob said:


> Voltage Drop - With long distances, the voltage "drops". The voltage at a plug might be 120 volts AC, then you use a small gauge 100 foot extension cord to power an air compressor, then the voltage at the end of that cord might be 80 volts! The compressor just "hums" and does not run. You determine wire gauge with a voltage drop calculator like this one...
> http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/vd_calculator_initial.html
> 
> So what is the distance to your barn? That would be the one way length of the wire run including going up to the panels.
> ...


So that answers my question. I'll bond my neutral to ground in the barn.


Billy_Bob said:


> GFCI Breakers / Outlets (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) - GFCI outlets are required in all wet areas. These detect electricity leaking (shorting) to ground, then INSTANTLY shut off the electricity.
> 
> So that hot electrical wire from a barn water warmer touches the metal case of the animals drinking water tank. There is no neutral to ground bond to the subpanel. Only 3 wires run to the subpanel. And the dog or the cow goes to the water tank to drink water and touches the metal tank. Then ZAP! One dead dog or cow. But Not in this case because we have installed a GFCI breaker or outlet. Electricity flows through the body of the cow or dog, then instantly before either knows it (about 1/40 of a second), the electricity is shut off. The cow and dog are safe! Yeaaaa!
> 
> ...


No, it's just storage and to work on cars and house projects, etc.


Billy_Bob said:


> Ground Loops - If you have neutral ground bonds at more than one location, you can get "ground loops". Google ground loops. All sorts of stuff on this. Electronic things hate ground loops. Best is one central ground which all other grounds are connected to (4th wire).
> 
> Loss of Neutral Wire - It is common for a main neutral wire to come loose. Many times because it was not torqued properly during installation. Too loose of a connection and it heats up under load. Then cools down when no load. Heat/cool/heat/cool... eventually the wire works itself loose...
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

dorlow said:


> So, I just googled the ground and neutral wires for an out building again and came across this article...
> 
> http://masterslic.tripod.com/FAQ-2/18.html
> 
> ...


Your description in post#1 indicates that you are running a feeder out to the barn, so you can forget about the exception in the Code about the “single branch circuit”. I didn’t read the article you linked to in post#41, nor do I intend to right now. If you want this to be a safe and proper installation, do it by Code. That means 4 wires to the barn, neutrals and equipment ground wire separated at sub-panels. A new installation, as you have done, cannot use the 3-wire exception. Pay attention to part (B)Grounded Systems, particularly the last sentence, and note the first 6 words of the exception in (B)Grounded Systems…._For existing premises wiring systems only._

*250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) **or Branch Circuit(s).*

*(A) Grounding Electrode. *Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50 shall be installed.

_Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment._

*(B) Grounded Systems. *For a grounded system at the separate building or structure, an equipment grounding conductor as described in 250.118 shall be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

_Exception: For existing premises wiring systems only, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2), and (3) are met:_
_(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure._
_(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved._
_(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s). Where the grounded conductor is used for grounding in accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of __the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:_
_(1) That required by 220.61_
_(2) That required by 250.122_


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## Hardway (Dec 28, 2011)

McSteve said:


> Excellent question! The circuit ground (Equipment Grounding Conductor) originates from the neutral-ground bond in your main service panel.
> 
> As you probably know, current ordinarily flows from the hot wire, through a load, and back on the neutral. If the current flow is excessive, a breaker will trip.
> 
> In the event of a ground fault, where a hot wire comes in contact with something that is grounded, the ground wire bonded to neutral allows sufficient current to flow along a relatively safe & controlled path, in order to trip the breaker. The ground wire also insures that all metal parts of the electrical system, appliances, and in most cases, plumbing, are held to the same voltage potential as the neutral wire, which is zero volts.


 
Ok it is coming back to me now that is why the bonding screw is screwed thru the Neutral bar and into the main panel box making a mechanical connection (bonding) to the Ground strip. The neutral and ground are isolated at the sub panel causing stray currents to go back to the main panel and go to the service ground. Rather then go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from the sub panel.
It is almost 30 years since I been in School, this site will be a good source to refresh my memory.

Thanks for the response!


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Hardway said:


> Ok it is coming back to me now that is why the bonding screw is screwed thru the Neutral bar and into the box making a mechanical connection (bonding) to the Ground strip. The neutral and ground are isolated at the sub panel causing stray currents to go back to the main panel and go to the service ground. Rather then go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from the sub panel.
> It is almost 30 years since I been in School, this site will be a good source to refresh my memory.
> 
> Thanks for the response!


I was told to at least ground the ground bar to the case just incase I electricuted myself while inside the box... then the box is grounded. But I'll hook the neutral back to the ground bar in the box and that will also be grounded to the case. The ground will also still be hooked to the ground rod of course and the neutral to the neutral of the house, which is hooked to ground seeing the house main box and the second box in the house ground and neutral are all the same.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

I'll say this for you....you seem determined to find someone to tell you the way you have done it, is the right way...if you do...THEY'RE WRONG!!!....because the way you have it is wrong.

If you want to leave it that way, that's certainly your right (unless of course you get the permit you should have got in the first place, then that right will be taken away....as it should be  ). 

Also, don't be surprised if the next home inspector (when/if you sell) finds the 3 conductors in the sub-panel and notes it.....or maybe not. 

50/50 chance he won't know what he's doing either.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Julius793 said:


> Get with the program bro this is the real world stories like this happen all the time


Actually I have lived a whole life time working for and with people / companies which do things the right way. Get permits when required to do so, etc.

But I have seen the "handiwork" and "shortcuts" taken many many times by those who are ignorant of safety guidelines/codes or ignore them. I also read about these people / companies in the newspaper quite a bit...

Headlines like "Great loss of life in New York club electrical fire", "Child electrocuted when touching metal garage door", " electrical fire killed three girls and destroyed home", etc.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

jproffer said:


> ...Also, don't be surprised if the next home inspector (when/if you sell) finds the 3 conductors in the sub-panel and notes it.....or maybe not.


Excellent point!

Get a home inspection now and see what they say!

Here is an home inspector's forum. See what they talk about when they find "interesting" electrical handiwork...
(Go to Electrical Forum)
http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/Forum/default.asp


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Another thing...

Two ground rods placed 6 ft. apart is better than one ground rod and is typical.

Also metal water pipe systems should be bonded to the ground system.

Heavy gauge copper wire should be used for these.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

dorlow said:


> I was told to at least ground the ground bar to the case just incase I electricuted myself while inside the box.


I came here for the info.....I think I'll stay for the entertainment. :whistling2:

To the OP, why are you not listening to the good advice you are getting here?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

zappa said:


> I came here for the info.....I think I'll stay for the entertainment. :whistling2:
> 
> To the OP, why are you not listening to the good advice you are getting here?


I have found on this forum and others, that face to face advice, even when wrong is more beleivable than what you find on the web.

I have seen many pros. give advice to be out done by one HD pro!:no:


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

jproffer said:


> I'll say this for you....you seem determined to find someone to tell you the way you have done it, is the right way...if you do...THEY'RE WRONG!!!....because the way you have it is wrong.
> 
> If you want to leave it that way, that's certainly your right (unless of course you get the permit you should have got in the first place, then that right will be taken away....as it should be  ).
> 
> ...


When we were hooking it up, we were trying to decide weather to run the ground or not. For one, money is tight. I was in a race against the ground freezing. I buried the wire already and since we've had a pretty good snow fall, so the ground is probably on the way of freezing now.

I guess from what the last electrician told me, if I would've ran the 4th ground wire, then the barn would be considered a detached building. But because I didn't run it, by the definition of electrical, it's a new electrical source, so I need to finish wiring it as if it's a new electrical source. 

Probably at the earliest I'd be able to add a ground would be next spring when the ground thaws. Then I'd be worried I'd hit the other wires and nick it.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Dorlow. Call a qualified electrician to look over everything and redo it properly. It's obvious that any advice I give you or anyone here gives you is making no impact on your decisions. You seem intent to follow the most convenient advice from incompetent sources simply because they agree with you and make it "easier". Well, easier can get you killed.
You are in over your head, get some help before you become a statistic. And I sincerely wish you the best of luck.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> by the definition of electrical, it's a new electrical source


:no:

It's a detached building regardless of how wrong your installation is...what you have is a SUB-panel, I can assure you. No matter how you wire it up, it will always be a SUB-panel, it will just be one that's wired incorrectly.

Unless of course the POCO brings in a seperate service (new drop, new meter) for the barn, which in my experience.....they wont.



> Then I'd be worried I'd hit the other wires and nick it.


That's the best thing that could happen....then you could replace them with the RIGHT conduit and conductors and do it RIGHT.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Ground rods have nothing to do with the proper operation of a circuit, nor prevent you from getting shocked or electrocuted. They are for high voltage events like lightning.

I am sorry that you received bad advice about the 3 wire feeder and that money is tight and the ground is freezing...... If you want to do this correctly and to code you need to have a 4 wire feeder installed. A separate grounding conductor cannot be added to what you have. It needs to be installed in the same cable or raceway. Maybe you can ge some of your money back and seel the old cable for scrap.


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## n175h (Oct 12, 2009)

SD515 said:


> Your description in post#1 indicates that you are running a feeder out to the barn, so you can forget about the exception in the Code about the “single branch circuit”. I didn’t read the article you linked to in post#41, nor do I intend to right now. If you want this to be a safe and proper installation, do it by Code. That means 4 wires to the barn, neutrals and equipment ground wire separated at sub-panels. A new installation, as you have done, cannot use the 3-wire exception. Pay attention to part (B)Grounded Systems, particularly the last sentence, and note the first 6 words of the exception in (B)Grounded Systems…._For existing premises wiring systems only._
> 
> *250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) **or Branch Circuit(s).*
> 
> ...


Kyle,

How are able to copy/paste the code verbatim? I have not been able to do that. I sure do appreciate the text, however. It seems like the NFPA wants to keep this a big dark secret unless you spent $175 on their book every two years. You would think that a document that all 50 states adopt as law would become part of the public record, subject to the open records act and available for all to see.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Many have the NEC in a pdf format.


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

Please bury a ground wire at your earliest convenience! And for God's sake correct the black-taped Romex (to the right of the panel in photo 2). No home inspector will miss that one... Just bring the circuits into the panel then extend to their respective breakers with wire nut connections inside the panel itself. Looks like there already is a convenient knockout open at the top right of the panel (also a violation to leave it like that btw)....

Looking at those shots, I'm reminded of picture book my son had: "Find all the cats in the picture".


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

n175h said:


> Kyle,
> 
> How are able to copy/paste the code verbatim? I have not been able to do that. I sure do appreciate the text, however. It seems like the NFPA wants to keep this a big dark secret unless you spent $175 on their book every two years. You would think that a document that all 50 states adopt as law would become part of the public record, subject to the open records act and available for all to see.


You can view it online too for free. You just need to register at NFPA:

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&EditionID=765&cookie_test=1


Mac users can use shift-apple-4 to cut out relevant sections.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> No home inspector will miss that one


You'd be surprised what HI's miss, lol.




> Just bring the circuits into the panel then extend to their respective breakers with wire nut connections inside the panel itself.


I think it's worth mentioning that, although I assume the OP is in the US, where that IS legal....I don't believe it's legal to splice inside the cabinet in Canada. If someone can confirm/deny, that would be great....but I think that's the case.

Just information for future readers.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

kwilcox said:


> You can view it online too for free. You just need to register at NFPA:
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&EditionID=765&cookie_test=1
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. :thumbsup:

I see that it goes all the way back to 1897....that should be interesting to take a peek at.


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## n175h (Oct 12, 2009)

kwilcox said:


> You can view it online too for free. You just need to register at NFPA:
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&EditionID=765&cookie_test=1
> 
> ...



Did that last week and have been reading it thoroughly since. It's not the easiest format to look through. If you need something on the 30th page of the subsection it takes 5 minutes to get there. 

The NEC is like Obamacare. You have to buy a product from a private company (or association) or risk breaking the law if you wire up something wrong.


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, I found it was sometimes easier to go to the next subsection then flip back...


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## Hardway (Dec 28, 2011)

kwilcox said:


> You can view it online too for free. You just need to register at NFPA:
> 
> http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&EditionID=765&cookie_test=1
> 
> ...


Free with $45.00 membership!


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

So far as not having enough money, snow being on the ground, etc., I can certainly understand that!

Anyway all of these various electrical codes and safety things are like the 9 lives of a cat...

If you do everything in the electrical code, then you have 9 lives. Skip one thing and you have 8 lives. Skip many things and there may be 1 life or none! (One step away from electrocution!)

Anyway do what you can right away. If you have not brushed on anti-oxidation goop (get in electrical department) on the aluminum wires and torqued them to the tightness specified on the panel label, breaker label/instructions, etc., then that would not be expensive to do.

And doing that would keep the neutral wire from heating up or oxidizing and possibly losing its connection. (Add one life to your 9 lives.)

Also GFCI outlets are not very expensive. You can install one GFCI outlet per circuit in the barn, then feed the other downstream outlets from that and they would be protected as well. That would add another "life".


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> If you do everything in the electrical code, then you have 9 lives. Skip one thing and you have 8 lives. Skip many things and there may be 1 life or none! (One step away from electrocution!)


 
kind of well put Billy Bob Joe:laughing::laughing:


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> Anyway all of these various electrical codes and safety things are like the 9 lives of a cat...
> 
> If you do everything in the electrical code, then you have 9 lives. Skip one thing and you have 8 lives. Skip many things and there may be 1 life or none! (One step away from electrocution!)
> 
> ...


That cat analogy is great! I'll probably use that every chance I get.

As far as basic things he can do to improve the installation, the absolute #1 thing he MUST do is bond neutral and ground in the barn panel. That's not optional. That one problem takes 7 lives from the cat - 8 if there aren't GFCIs in the barn. It would be a code violation to bond them if he had a 4-wire feed because they would already be bonded upstream, but with a 3-wire feed and a totally separate grounding system in the barn, they MUST BE BONDED! Having an unbonded equipment grounding system is far worse than no grounding at all.

GFCI receptacles are definitely the second most important thing. Without a bonded equipment grounding system, GFCI's are the only thing standing between a ground fault and every metal part in the building being electrified.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Sadly, I'm kind of inclined to agree with bonding the neutral/ground. It's probably a violation, depending on what code cycle he's under, but marginally safer than a completely floating grounding system. And I definitely agree with putting GFCI on everything.

My best advice remains the same as it originally was; disconnect everything and start over, with professional help. If the OP won't follow that advice, at least GFCI will make it slightly less likely to kill him.

And now I think I'm unsubscribing from this thread. It's been a great thread; I laughed, I cried. But there's really nothing more to be said. Some people are just gonna do what they're gonna do.


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

Hardway said:


> Free with $45.00 membership!


I just had to register. I paid $0.00 :confused1:


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

McSteve said:


> Sadly, I'm kind of inclined to agree with bonding the neutral/ground. It's probably a violation, depending on what code cycle he's under, but marginally safer than a completely floating grounding system.


Definitely WAY safer. Using a 3-wire feeder and a bonded neutral was once legal, and is still the way utilities feed customers. It's safe as long as the neutral connection is intact. An unbonded grounding system, on the other hand, is an imminent hazard and worse than no grounding at all.


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## Hardway (Dec 28, 2011)

kwilcox said:


> I just had to register. I paid $0.00 :confused1:


I did register but was unable to figure out how to open NEC. HELP please


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Hardway said:


> I did register but was unable to figure out how to open NEC. HELP please


Follow the link that kwilcox posted. About half way down the page you will see "view the xxxx edition online". After hitting that it should be easy to follow and it will bring you to the sign in page.

Note: I was only able to view 2008 and 2011. The earlier years just seem to have archived notes unless I'm doing something wrong.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

While sleeping last night, I thought of an idea to fix my grounding issue in the barn without ripping up the wire in the ground. Why don't I just change my power in my barn from 240 to 120v. I don't have any tools that use 240v. I just ran it just in case I'd ever want it... but I don't see me using it anytime ever. Air compressors are usually 120v. Only thing I could think would ever need 240v would be a wire welder, and I don't weld. Then I can use one of the 2 gauge wires as a hot, one as a neutral and then the 4 gauge wire as ground. 

I was thinking too, I'd change the panel in my basement (the one that has 3 breakers in it), to one that allows me to separate my grounds and neutrals. Then I'd make sure my neutral to the barn was hooked to the neutral bar, and the ground wire hooked to the ground bar in that small box.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Then I'd make sure my neutral to the barn was hooked to the neutral bar, and the ground wire hooked to the ground bar in that small box


The main panel end doesn't matter...just seperate them in the barn. EDIT, oops, nevermind...the box we're talking about (in your basement) is a sub-panel right? Yea, it'd be better to seperate them.

And I see nothing wrong with your idea, if that's what you want to do. 

Make sure you re-ID the neutral wire as white.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

If you make the change from 240 to a 120 panel, every other breaker slot will not have power.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

:wallbash::wallbash:

So true.....




Again, I should think all this out before I start talking huh....LOL :laughing:


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## Hardway (Dec 28, 2011)

zappa said:


> Follow the link that kwilcox posted. About half way down the page you will see "view the xxxx edition online". After hitting that it should be easy to follow and it will bring you to the sign in page.
> 
> Note: I was only able to view 2008 and 2011. The earlier years just seem to have archived notes unless I'm doing something wrong.


Zappa thanks, i was able to View 2008 and 2011


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> If you make the change from 240 to a 120 panel, every other breaker slot will not have power.


Unless he connects the single hot wire to both busses, which I believe he would be allowed to do. This seems like a reasonable solution.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

mpoulton said:


> Unless he connects the single hot wire to both busses, which I believe he would be allowed to do. This seems like a reasonable solution.


 
We all do it down here y'all....in "almost Arkansas" Jumper the busses is normal routine for many outbuildings and sheds.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

So, I talked to the head maintenance guy yesterday at a school I work at. He's a licensed electrician and does all of the school's electrical work. They pass their inspections, so I think he knows what he's talking about. I showed him the pictures in this forum. He told me the only place where the grounds and neutrals need to be separated by code is in the main panel. He told me to put another bar in the main panel that would be grounded to the box and move all my grounds to that and then move the ground wire to that bar. The neutrals should be isolated and not connected to anything. 

He said after that, that the grounds and neutrals can be all on the same bars. I then ran my idea about changing my barn from being 240 to 120 so i'd only have one hot. one 2 gauge would be hot, one 2 gauge would be neutral and the 4 gauge would be ground. He said that would be fine as long as I tape the ground with green tape and the neutral with white... then it's code.

The only thing he pointed out that breaks code in my main box is that the wires running from the main box to the first sub panel, the wires aren't in conduit... and code states it needs to be in that. Which that will be an easy and cheap fix.

But the one thing I haven't gotten an answer from him on yet is, if grounds and neutrals are ok to be one and the same after the main box, then why bother running a ground and neutral from the barn to the house? Both wires will be running from the same bar in the barn to the same barn in the house... so they're just a duplicate wire. The only thing this confirms is I need to bond the neutral and grounds in the barn.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

dorlow said:


> So, I talked to the head maintenance guy yesterday at a school I work at. He's a licensed electrician and does all of the school's electrical work. They pass their inspections, so I think he knows what he's talking about.


And then he proceeded to give you a bunch of advice that is demonstrably incorrect and clearly doesn't comply with multiple code sections that have been directly quoted in this discussion thread. And you believe him instead of our citations to the electrical code. Even though you apparently have absolutely no understanding of how an electrical system works.

Do whatever the hell you want. I'm done.


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## <*(((>< (Mar 6, 2009)

dorlow said:


> So, I talked to the head maintenance guy yesterday at a school I work at. He's a licensed electrician and does all of the school's electrical work. They pass their inspections, so I think he knows what he's talking about. I showed him the pictures in this forum. He told me the only place where the grounds and neutrals need to be separated by code is in the main panel. He told me to put another bar in the main panel that would be grounded to the box and move all my grounds to that and then move the ground wire to that bar. The neutrals should be isolated and not connected to anything.
> 
> He said after that, that the grounds and neutrals can be all on the same bars. I then ran my idea about changing my barn from being 240 to 120 so i'd only have one hot. one 2 gauge would be hot, one 2 gauge would be neutral and the 4 gauge would be ground. He said that would be fine as long as I tape the ground with green tape and the neutral with white... then it's code.
> 
> ...


 Wow! What school does he work at so I can make sure not to send my kids there!?!

At the main panel providing that the power coming into the panel isn't interrupted by a service cut-off switch is the only place where the grounds and neutrals CAN be connected, downstream of there in the situation of a subpanel they have to be separated. The reason for separating them in a subpanel situation is that power on the neutral conductor would energize the ground, before it gets back to the main panel and onto the transformer.

Don't take the maintenance guys word for it, or ours for that matter, look it up yourself on the national electrical code website, and find you answer.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

I think if I was an electrical inspector in your town, I would quickly wind up here...










I give up!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

dorlow said:


> So, I talked to the head maintenance guy yesterday at a school I work at. He's a licensed electrician and does all of the school's electrical work. They pass their inspections, so I think he knows what he's talking about. I showed him the pictures in this forum. He told me the only place where the grounds and neutrals need to be separated by code is in the main panel. He told me to put another bar in the main panel that would be grounded to the box and move all my grounds to that and then move the ground wire to that bar. The neutrals should be isolated and not connected to anything.
> 
> He said after that, that the grounds and neutrals can be all on the same bars. I then ran my idea about changing my barn from being 240 to 120 so i'd only have one hot. one 2 gauge would be hot, one 2 gauge would be neutral and the 4 gauge would be ground. He said that would be fine as long as I tape the ground with green tape and the neutral with white... then it's code.
> 
> The only thing he pointed out that breaks code in my main box is that the wires running from the main box to the first sub panel, the wires aren't in conduit... and code states it needs to be in that. Which that will be an easy and cheap fix.


I think he won't be able to produce his electrical license if you ask to see it ...:laughing:

His advice is some of the most dangerous advice I have ever seen posted on a forum. What he told you will prevent any circuit breaker from tripping on ground fault and thereby posing a huge electrocution hazard.

If this guy works in a school as an electrician he really does need his work inspected. Obviously it never has been or it could not possibly pass inspection. He doesn't even understand the basics of a safe installation for installing a sub panel.



> But the one thing I haven't gotten an answer from him on yet is, if grounds and neutrals are ok to be one and the same after the main box, then why bother running a ground and neutral from the barn to the house? Both wires will be running from the same bar in the barn to the same barn in the house... so they're just a duplicate wire. The only thing this confirms is I need to bond the neutral and grounds in the barn.


Hmmmmm I wonder why he couldn't answer that ??? :whistling2: 

*NO* *!!* it confirms you want to bond neutral and ground at the main panel (service equipment) and *NOT* bond them at the barn panel or any panel downstream of the service equipment. 

Stop listening to this idiot your going to get yourself injured or worse.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Dorlow.....show the maintenance guy my post.....He's 100% wrong about the neutrals and grounds being seperated in the main panel.
I figured you would keep asking around until you found somebody who was as ill informed as you. Looks like you found him.  Why do you keep coming back when you don't listen to what we say or care about doing it properly?


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

I do thank everyone for their input. I have 3 electricians I know personally and they all contradict what everyone is stating in this forum thread. It's not that I found 50 local electricians and decided to ignore all but the 3 that said what I wanted to hear. I don't understand why everyone on this forum is telling me contradicts what my 3 local guys say. 

When I was talking to the school maintenance guy, I told him what everyone was saying on this forum and he said he just had a similar hookup and he hooked it up like he told me to change mine and passed his inspection with no flags. 


So it's hard for me that doesn't know the right way to do it when I have 30 people I don't know and don't know their qualifications and for all I know are some kids in the basement giving me advice where the guys I'm talking to all have high paying jobs and are very well education.


Now I know that all of you aren't just kids sitting in your parents basement. I'm sure most of you know this stuff almost as well, as well, or more than my local guys.... But it's hard to know to trust 30 people that I can't see or 3 people that I know. So that's the conundrum I'm in.


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## <*(((>< (Mar 6, 2009)

So trust no one and look it up yourself like I suggested.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

*Don't take the maintenance guys word for it, or ours for that matter, look it up yourself on the national electrical code website, and find you answer. *

Best advice so far!!
You can find the NEC online and read it yourself.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Listen to the guys here about where and how to bond the neutral and ground. The local guys are either wrong or you are misunderstanding their responses.

This is from a licensed master electrician (since 1996).


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## sissond (Jan 6, 2012)

Dorlow, I'm new here but I have done extensive research for the past 2 months on running a feeder to a detached structure. Everything that the guys here have told you is in line with what I have read on reputable websites, in books, heard from electricians I've met, and have confirmed with the local inspector.

Either the guys you are talking to locally are either, 1. all incompetent, 2. messing with you, 3. confusing you to the point where you don't understand what they are telling you.

Just listen to these guys on this site and fix your issues! Stop continuously looking for a second opinion.

I had one of my uncle's electricians do our service upgrade which included installing a new main panel and turning the old panel into a sub-panel. The local inspector told me that our electrician did the best work he has ever had the pleasure of inspecting. And this inspector hates everyone and everything.

I can tell you that right now our main panel has the neutral and ground bus bars connected/bonded and in our sub-panel they are disconnected. That is how the inspector (and everyone else I've spoke to) says I should set up the sub-panel in our detached garage as well.

Either the guy you spoke with, or you, have it backwards.

By the way, from the posts I've read in this thread, you had no where near the knowledge necessary to tackle such an undertaking. My knowledge about running a feeder was similar to yours, so instead of jumping into it head first, I took my time and learned. Now when I finally have time to run my electrical, I'm confident that it may actually pass the inspection. And at the very least, no one will die and the garage won't burn down.

I have spent most of my free time in the last few years since I moved here fixing up my old house from numerous mistakes/hazards made by hack contractors and ignorant DIYer's. Do homeowners like me a favor and stop attempting tasks before you know what you're doing.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Dorlow

I have to believe there is a miscommunication between you and the local electricians (excluding the school maintenance guy). Any electrician that has been doing this for a while knows that you only bond neutral and ground at the service equipment. In your case that is the enclosure where your single Murray main breaker is located. All the panels after that are fed with four wires (H-H-N-Grd) and have their neutrals and grounds separated in the panels. 

Part of the problem is your experience with electrical and the correct understanding of the differences between neutral and equipment grounding vs earth grounding .ie.. ground rods etc. 

If you like I will take the time to post several diagrams showing you the why of this neutral ground bonding thing. You have some misconceptions that need to be cleared up.

If so post back and through the course of this afternoon we will discuss the diagrams which you are free to copy and show your electricians for verification of accuracy. 

I may take a few hours break but the other electricians and knowledgable members here can discuss my diagrams just as well as I can. These members are very knowledgable ... many are master electricians and residential wireman qualified. As for me I never feel comfortable on this forum spouting about my credentials as many here on this forum are more qualified than I .. especially in residential. Nonetheless I have been in the trade for many years and am now retired. 

So if your game I'll take the time 

stubbie


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

dorlow said:


> So, I talked to the head maintenance guy yesterday at a school I work at. He's a licensed electrician and does all of the school's electrical work. They pass their inspections, so I think he knows what he's talking about. I showed him the pictures in this forum. He told me the only place where the grounds and neutrals need to be separated by code is in the main panel. He told me to put another bar in the main panel that would be grounded to the box and move all my grounds to that and then move the ground wire to that bar. The neutrals should be isolated and not connected to anything.
> 
> He said after that, that the grounds and neutrals can be all on the same bars. I then ran my idea about changing my barn from being 240 to 120 so i'd only have one hot. one 2 gauge would be hot, one 2 gauge would be neutral and the 4 gauge would be ground. He said that would be fine as long as I tape the ground with green tape and the neutral with white... then it's code.
> 
> ...


:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

GOOD GRACIOUS!!!!!


I'm done


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Stubbie said:


> Hmmmmm I wonder why he couldn't answer that ??? :whistling2:


He couldn't answer that because I never asked him. I thought the question after I left.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

If you ask enough people, someone will agree with you. It worked for Charles Manson, Jim Jones, and lest we forget Adolf Hitler.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

dorlow said:


> He couldn't answer that because I never asked him. I thought the question after I left.


Well that certainly shows you are wondering what doesn't make sense.

Look .. why don't we clean the slate and start over ... did you read my other post ?


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> ...I have 3 electricians I know personally and they all contradict what everyone is stating in this forum thread...


For most things in life, you can ask 5 people advice and what the majority say is usually pretty good advice. And I do advise people to do that, especially with people/relationship problems...

BUT! I moved to a small town awhile back and encountered the same situation you are in. So far as technical things go, most people here are wrong and misinformed.

Many people here have never lived out of the area. All they know is what people here do. And the same misinformation goes 'round and 'round for years.

All I can say is if you need medical advice, go to a doctor.

If you want to learn to drive and learn the driving rules, read the Department of Motor Vehicles booklet.

If you want to properly repair a car, get a "Factory Service Manual" set of books - 4 books to set. And about 2000 pages total on the specific repair of one vehicle of one model year. Here is an example...
http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1993/index.html

If you want to properly repair an appliance, you use the troubleshooting guides in a Factory Service Manual for that appliance. Here is an example...
http://bryantrv.com/docs.html

If you have a legal problem and go before a judge, the ruling would be based on LAW, not on what other people say or do.

And for the proper way to do electrical work, the correct information can be found at your local electrical inspector's office and the National Electrical Code books...
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=7011SB&order_src=B119

Here is one with pictures...
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=70HB11&order_src=B119

There is a saying: "Get it straight from the horse's mouth!"

That means...
"From an authoritative or dependable source."


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

what about this?

Multiple Building Power/Grounding
NEC 250.32 [2002 - 2005] Common ac service
If no common grounding conductor extends between the buildings with multiple circuits then each
building must have an established grounding electrode system with a separate neutral-to-ground
bond in each building.
If a common grounded and grounding conductor extends between the buildings, and multiple circuits
exist then a grounding terminal will be required in the connected buildings and no individual neutral-
to-ground bonds will be permitted in each additional building.
If a single circuit extends to a second building and both grounded and grounding conductors extend
to the second building then no ground terminal will be required and a neutral-to-ground bond cannot
be established at the second building.


According to that, if I didn't send a ground to the barn, then I just need to run a ground rod and the neutral and ground need to be connected. Or would I be going by the 3rd statement?


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## <*(((>< (Mar 6, 2009)

dorlow said:


> what about this?
> 
> Multiple Building Power/Grounding
> NEC 250.32 [2002 - 2005] Common ac service
> ...


You're on the right track but how about checking the 2008 NEC codes as that is when it changed. I'm sure you will find the answer to your question and that it is what people here have been saying. 

You do know that ground rods aren't there to dissipate regularly current but rather a lightning strike event, this is a common misconception. The reason that the neutral and ground are tied together in the main service panel is so that the electricity has a channel to head back to the transformer to even out.

Why don't you look at the post below, as Stubbie has done a great job with his post:
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/sub-panel-grounding-13219/


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Every one of your panels past the main service disconnect(the big black breaker with the large wires) requires isolated neutrals and grounding conductors--period.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'll try to explain. In your case you only have a 3 wire feeder to your barn. This is permissible under certain exceptions and is dependent on the NEC code cycle in force in your local jurisdiction. If your on 2005 or before and no local amendments to the contrary you may run a 3 wire feeder from the *service* *equipment* to a detached building. This is only if you do not have any other metallic paths between the building with the service equipment and the building your feeder supplies. This means you cannot now or in the future run metal water pipes or phone or data cables or any other wiring or metal paths that use the grounding system of the dwelling and detached building. 

This per 2011 NEC which allows you to have a 3 wire feeder that is existing.

In your case it was not existing 

Now this is dependent on the code cycle your jurisdiction is enforcing as said earlier. Pay attention to the highlighted exception.

NEC 2011

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s)
or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied
by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding
electrode or grounding electrode system installed in
accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding
electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance
with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding
electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50
shall be installed.
Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required
where only a single branch circuit, including a multiwire
branch circuit, supplies the building or structure and the
branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor
for grounding the normally non–current-carrying metal
parts of equipment.
(B) Grounded Systems. For a grounded system at the
separate building or structure, an equipment grounding conductor
as described in 250.118 shall be run with the supply
conductors and be connected to the building or structure
disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The
equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding
or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required
to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding
conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122.
Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected
to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding
electrode(s).


> Exception: For existing premises wiring systems only, the
> grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or
> structure shall be permitted to be connected to the building
> or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding
> ...


Now forget the grounding electrode requirement .. you keep thinking this has something to do with equipment grounding .. this is not why you bond neutral and equipment grounding.

So if you are on 2005 or earlier you may, considering any local amendments to the NEC, run a 3 wire feeder from the Service Equipment to the panel in the garage in accordance with the exception.

In your case you are not running your feeder from the service equipment but from a panel downstream of the service equipment which is required by code to be fed with four wires or three current carrying wires and metal conduit for the equipment ground..

Put a flow chart together ... your first panel after the service disconnect is fed by four wires which is correct *but* the ground and neutral were not separated, major code violation, and you now have neutral current returning to the main disconnect panel over the bare equipment ground wire and the feeder neutral. You never want normal system current on the equipment ground where it is not expected. This bonding is energizing all bonded metal, your equipment ground wires and feeder egc as you have given the neutral current other paths to use to get back to the service equipment and then to the source (transformer).

Your second panel is next to the other sub-panel it is fed by 3 wires (another code violation) and you bonded neutral and ground but you do not have your (case) main bonding means installed in the neutral bar. Any hot phase fault to ground or that metal will not trip a circuit breaker ... the metal will be just like a live bare wire and will shock or electrocute you if you touch it and a fault is present. 

You ran a three wire feeder from the second panel to your barn (another code violation). In that panel you connected to the left bar with the feeder neutral and one branch circuit neutral ... on the right you connected your grounding electrode conductor and the branch circuit ground and installed the bonding jumper to the metal case.

The neutral is isolated from ground and the case in that panel which is incorrectly fed with a 3 wire feeder. This is telling me you think that the path to earth over the grounding electrode conductor is what is required to open (trip) your circuit breaker. As it is wired right now you will not be able to trip any circuit breaker on a ground fault.

So think about this ..without a complete low impedance/resistance circuit back to the transformer (source) for fault current over an 'effective ground fault path' your circuit breakers will never trip and thereby protect you from electrocution. Notice I said back to the transformer not earth .

As it stands you have no protection against ground fault and electrocution at the second sub-panel or the barn sub-panel.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

A question I have is, according to the articles here, it's OK to send a 3 wire feed to the barn under 2005 rules. In 2008 rules, it's not ok anymore. I know this statement doesn't change the safety of the situation... but electricity has been around for a long time. They didn't figure out that breakers wouldn't trip unless a ground wire was ran until after 2008? It's hard to believe that there has to be millions or billions of electrians from the time Benjamin Franklin discovered it in 1750 until now... So from 1750 to 2005 (205 years), all electricians thought it was safe and breakers or fuses would break with only a 3 wire feed, and only 7 years ago they figured out they where wrong for the past 199 years? It's just hard for me to believe that millions or billions of electricians didn't get electrocuted enough if it's unsafe and figured it out a long time before 7 years ago.



Stubbie said:


> I'll try to explain. In your case you only have a 3 wire feeder to your barn. This is permissible under certain exceptions and is dependent on the NEC code cycle in force in your local jurisdiction. If your on 2005 or before and no local amendments to the contrary you may run a 3 wire feeder from the *service* *equipment* to a detached building. This is only if you do not have any other metallic paths between the building with the service equipment and the building your feeder supplies. This means you cannot now or in the future run metal water pipes or phone or data cables or any other wiring or metal paths that use the grounding system of the dwelling and detached building.
> 
> This per 2011 NEC which allows you to have a 3 wire feeder that is existing.
> 
> ...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You still don't understand what is going on. I'm not sure you are going to be convinced of your errors. The people who inspected your home were not electricians but home inspectors, evidently ones that did not have a very good electrical knowledge.

One way to convince you that you do not understand may be to get you to explain how a breaker is going to trip at your barn panel the way it is presently wired. If you can do that I'll go away and you can leave it as is or however your locals are telling you is ok.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> A question I have is, according to the articles here, it's OK to send a 3 wire feed to the barn under 2005 rules. In 2008 rules, it's not ok anymore. I know this statement doesn't change the safety of the situation... but electricity has been around for a long time. They didn't figure out that breakers wouldn't trip unless a ground wire was ran until after 2008?...


That is a good question.

There also used to be 2 lane highways, then they replaced many of them with divided highways. Cars did not have air bags.

And in the 60's, homes had 2 prong outlets, no GFCI outlets, and no smoke detectors. Many people lived in those homes and never had any problems...

...however MANY other people were electrocuted or died in electrical fires.

We learn from these accidents. Then take steps to make things safer.

So IF everything electrical would ALWAYS function properly. And EVERYTHING powered by electricity always functioned properly. And all electrical circuits were ALWAYS 100% intact and connected. Then many electrical code rules would not be needed.

But we live in the real world and things happen to dangerously damage electrical circuits and electrical devices.

As it turns out, there are some *very* smart people out there who have been able to design things so we are still safe even when an electrical malfunction happens.

Ground wires get cut.
Neutral wires come loose.
Someone digs a trench and cuts an electrical line.
Someone drills a hole in a wall and cuts an electrical wire.

These things happen everyday! But when they do happen, an up to code electrical system will assure you that you and your family are still safe!

Not the case with older electrical systems.

Basically it is the case of there being a problem. Then doing something about it to reduce or eliminate those problems in the future.

As to why this is being addressed now and not a long time ago... Well once upon a time there was just one main electrical panel in a home. One outlet per room. No need for any subpanels.

Now everybody and their brother has a subpanel to power all those electrical gadgets.

Safety problems with subpanels have been noted and corrected.

Something new to come along will be electric vehicles. I imagine there will be problems with that too. If there are, then changes to the code will be made to make it safer. If no problems, then no need for any changes.

Simple as that!


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is a good question.
> 
> There also used to be 2 lane highways, then they replaced many of them with divided highways. Cars did not have air bags.
> 
> ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Well said sir.....well said.




To the OP:

You have 100ish posts now telling you that the THREE people you talked to are wrong. Assuming some people on here only have one post and some have 5 or 6....say 3 each....so 33 or so people telling you that they are WRONG.

Why do you insist on finding someone on here to agree with the three people that you know?? What's the difference? Who cares what we think? As far as that goes, who cares what your 3 locals say or think? 

Why don't ya just do it however you want to...or leave it however you want to.....and go on with life? It's YOUR house. 

Why do you keep asking and trying to find a round-about way of justifying your improper installation?

I can understand wanting to understand why something is the way it is. But multiple people have explained it to you...some with detailed diagrams (BTW, good job Stubbie :thumbsup: ). But you seem to be fishing REALLLLLLY hard for a justification for the way you did this project, however wrong it may be.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

We are still arguing over a rule that is in place...how ridiculous. Yes, there are millions ssub-panels wired with just 3 wires from the main....so what? The code has changed, it's no longer acceptable for new installations....PERIOD. This can't be argued, this can't turn into opinion, as it apparently has. Next time you see a 45 mile an hour speed limit, speed up to 70 and tell the cop it's OK because you didn't get hurt. Tell him it's just his opinion that you are going too fast. Get it? A million posts won't change the code. There are other people here asking questions who actually want to know the right way to do things. Give it a rest and let us get back to those who are truly in need and will take advice. Arguing the code is a stupid thing to do and unfortunately I'm guilty as the rest with this pointless bantering.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> We learn from these accidents. Then take steps to make things safer.


Are my grounds hooked up right?

Will I get shocked if I touch the little brass thumb nuts? 

It was safe in 1902.

Sigh....I guess people don't have common sense anymore.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

zappa said:


> Are my grounds hooked up right?
> 
> Will I get shocked if I touch the little brass thumb nuts?
> 
> ...


 
I doubt it was safe in 1902...and do you own that fan? Very cool.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

zappa said:


> Are my grounds hooked up right?
> 
> Will I get shocked if I touch the little brass thumb nuts?
> 
> ...


It was never safe, LOL.

The danger within was ACCEPTED in 1902, but it wasn't safe, by any means. :jester:


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> I doubt it was safe in 1902...and do you own that fan? Very cool.


Yes I do and it's running at the moment.


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## pete0403 (Dec 22, 2010)

zappa said:


> Yes I do and it's running at the moment.


LOL! Hoping this is sarcasm. hoping....


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

I have no doubt that it can run and if I had a fan like that I would run it as well....just not around any little fingers.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

pete0403 said:


> LOL! Hoping this is sarcasm. hoping....


No serious. It's right next to me in my computer room and runs whenever I'm here. It was originally a 133 cycle fan. When 133 cycles went away someone toasted it on 60 cycles so I halfed the wire size and doubled the turns but kept the 10 poles and now it lumbers along at about 600 RPM. Just enough to move the air around but whisper quiet.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Well which fan is it?...the two pictures are not of the same fan.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

brric said:


> 7. Line and load conductors might be reversed at service disco.


IMO they are and either the picture is upside down .. you can see the word Murray inverted on the cover ... or the cb enclosure is installed upside down.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> Well which fan is it?...the two pictures are not of the same fan.


Yes, same fan....I'm a glutton for punishment. I did have to add the front part of the guard as it was missing. It's a General Electric BTW.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> IMO they are and either the picture is upside down .. you can see the word Murray inverted on the cover ... or the cb enclosure is installed upside down.


I looked at the pic closely and followed the aluminum into his breaker panel. It looked ok to me. Maybe no?


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

zappa said:


> Yes, same fan....I'm a glutton for punishment. I did have to add the front part of the guard as it was missing. It's a General Electric BTW.


..but in different stages of restoration. Did you do that yourself?


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> ..but in different stages of restoration. Did you do that yourself?


Yes, the second pic was how I got the fan. The flutes on the base were reconstructed with bondo and JB weld along the outside rim.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Not to stir the pot but I do have a question. In another thread J.V. mentioned that a service could be extended to an outbuilding with 3 wires as long as it was tapped off at the meter or before any bonding takes place. I'm getting very confused as to what the difference is. :huh:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

zappa said:


> I looked at the pic closely and followed the aluminum into his breaker panel. It looked ok to me. Maybe no?


If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....:no:


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....:no:


You're right!! What is up with that? And it looks like some of them are in a sheath.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

I think the curly black one is bonded in the same lug as the copper.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yep, I'm not sure what is going on, one of those wires is probably the gec for one of the electrodes.

There are 200 amp meter sockets that have provisions (lugs) on the load terminals for 100 amp sub-feeds. I'm not sure what the situation was where J.V. mentioned this, but normally these sub-feeds are permitted on rural agricultural properties.

The code reference is 230.40 exception 3


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

dorlow said:


> A question I have is, according to the articles here, it's OK to send a 3 wire feed to the barn under 2005 rules. In 2008 rules, it's not ok anymore. I know this statement doesn't change the safety of the situation... but electricity has been around for a long time. They didn't figure out that breakers wouldn't trip unless a ground wire was ran until after 2008?


No, you're still misunderstanding the circuitry here. The configuration you have installed WAS NEVER CODE COMPLIANT, AND NEVER SAFE! A three-wire feeder WITH NEUTRAL AND GROUND BONDED IN THE NEW PANEL was allowed until 2008, and only if it originated from the service equipment, not from a subpanel. That's essentially just an extension of the utility's drop to your property. Even though it's no longer allowed, I wouldn't object to that - it's safe as long as the neutral conductor remains intact.

It has NEVER been legal, accepted, or safe, to have a grounding system that is not bonded to neutral. This is a critical distinction. This is what you have installed. This is what Stubbie was explaining the perils of. All equipment grounding conductors MUST BE BONDED TO NEUTRAL SOMEWHERE.

You really need to get your head around the concept of bonding vs. grounding. Does someone have a convenient link to a Mike Holt thingy about this?


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## Terabitdan (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!

Dan


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Terabitdan said:


> I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!
> 
> Dan


 You know what...if somebody learns something from all of this then it's worth it. Glad we could help you.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> You really need to get your head around the concept of bonding vs. grounding. Does someone have a convenient link to a Mike Holt thingy about this?


You mean THIS ?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

A couple of my artistically talented diagrams are in order .. 

In an effort to show a comparison of the the 'barn' panel in this thread I have two diagrams.

The first diagram shows the Op's barn panel as it is presently wired only I left out the house sub panels he has to avoid confusion. I simply am showing a service equipment panel with a 3 wire feeder going to a panel in a detached building ... barn if you like....

The second diagram is a properly bonded 3 wire feeder that allows fault current to utilize the 'feeder' neutral to get back to the source transformer so that a breaker will trip. Understand that the bonding jumper (just like the one in the OPs barn panel) has been installed on the neutral bar in my drawing ... the ground bar is simply bonded to the metal enclosure by means of the mounting screws as it is not on insulated stand offs like the neutral bar but has metal to metal contact. The fault path includes the metal of the panel due to this bonding. 



> Note that in the OPs barn panel both the grounding bar and the neutral bar are on insulated standoffs effectively isolating them from the metal of the enclosure and therefore both must have bonding jumpers like the one he has on the grounding bar in order for fault current to get to the feeder neutral to return to the source.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

And one showing why you cannot run other metallic paths to the detached building when using a 3 wire feeder.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Now see what you guys did....the poster hasnt been around since post 103. Wonder what that means.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Stubbie said:


> If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....:no:


I hadn't noticed this before. I had thought the service conductors were entering from the left but now I guess they are entering from the top along with the groounding electrode conductors?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

brric said:


> I hadn't noticed this before. I had thought the service conductors were entering from the left but now I guess they are entering from the top along with the grounding electrode conductors?


Yep that's correct, I'm assuming those are gec's but who knows .... the op is finished with us. He just couldn't believe we know what we are talking about in his installation. It's a shame cause he has a real potential of getting someone killed the way he has the panels bonded. 

His biggest problem is he thinks the connection to ground (earth) is what the breakers need to trip on fault.


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## Arnold Ziffel (Jan 2, 2012)

Stubbie said:


> the op is finished with us.


The OP last posted less than a day ago ... he could be taking Saturday off. Let's not panic that he's been scared away yet.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

If you have read his responses he doesn't think we know what we are talking about. Last I read he was telling us why he thought we were wrong.....


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I would hate to add up add the years of professional experience that looks like it will be ignored.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Jim Port said:


> I would hate to add up add the years of professional experience that looks like it will be ignored.


Why?

We see it all the time, and will see it again.
Of course this is probably the worst I've seen.

At least we have provided the correct answers others can use.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Normally the light comes on when someone sees the same information again and again. it is not like there were two different opinions on whether it was OK to do what the OP was considering.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

jbfan said:


> I have found on this forum and others, that face to face advice, even when wrong is more beleivable than what you find on the web.
> 
> I have seen many pros. give advice to be out done by one HD pro!:no:


I posted this earlier.

I have seen this on many forums and just not the electrical threads.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Sad but true.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> Normally the light comes on when someone sees the same information again and again. it is not like there were two different opinions on whether it was OK to do what the OP was considering.


The lights on but nobody's home..........


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Anybody think that the OP may just be a psych major and yankin' our collective chains? How engaged we all became on what should have amounted to no more than 5-10 posts. Hard to believe anyone can be that stupid.


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## oleguy74 (Aug 23, 2010)

just close this thread and be done with it!!!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Missouri Bound said:


> Anybody think that the OP may just be a psych major and yankin' our collective chains? How engaged we all became on what should have amounted to no more than 5-10 posts. Hard to believe anyone can be that stupid.


Mabye so but some case some pepoles will never understand 100% at first shot I have see that few time in other fourms.

Merci,
Marc


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Common sense is NOT all that common.


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## sissond (Jan 6, 2012)

Missouri Bound said:


> Anybody think that the OP may just be a psych major and yankin' our collective chains? How engaged we all became on what should have amounted to no more than 5-10 posts. Hard to believe anyone can be that stupid.


Jackpot. We have a winner. Give that man a cigar.

Seriously though, I really hope this is the case.


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

oleguy74 said:


> just close this thread and be done with it!!!


Noooo don't do that, keep it open and maybe we could break a record for the number of posts :clap: :wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

oleguy74 said:


> just close this thread and be done with it!!!


Thread closed .... happy now.....


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> Anybody think that the OP may just be a psych major and yankin' our collective chains? How engaged we all became on what should have amounted to no more than 5-10 posts. Hard to believe anyone can be that stupid.


I'm fairly new here and I have seen similar behaviour in a few other threads. My first thought, right or wrong, was that a bored experienced electrician was having a little fun.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Terabitdan said:


> I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!
> 
> Dan





Missouri Bound said:


> You know what...if somebody learns something from all of this then it's worth it. Glad we could help you.


++1 :thumbsup:


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> And one showing why you cannot run other metallic paths to the detached building when using a 3 wire feeder.


Thanks for taking the time to draw it out Stubbie. I for one learn much easier with pictures and drawings vs. written words.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> There are 200 amp meter sockets that have provisions (lugs) on the load terminals for 100 amp sub-feeds. I'm not sure what the situation was where J.V. mentioned this, but normally these sub-feeds are permitted on rural agricultural properties.
> 
> The code reference is 230.40 exception 3


I have a similar situation with my rural property which is what brought me to this forum but I didn't know about this option. Looks like I need to study up on it. Can this be done to feed multiple buildings and would all buildings have the neutrals bonded to the equipment grounds and ground rods? I would be just as happy to run 4 conductors but this may be another option for me.

I'm going to start a new thread with some diagrams. Maybe I can get someone to answer me this time.


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## n175h (Oct 12, 2009)

Terabitdan said:


> I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!
> 
> Dan


I agree. I've learned more about grounding/bonding on this thread than dozens of others, and you guys have been really civil about the argument. :thumbsup: I've read through some threads where some get into virtual fist fights over who is right and wrong. 

This has been good:yes:

David


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

Hardway said:


> McSteve:
> 
> If the grounding rod exists primarily to protect the wiring and structure from lightning, and other high-voltage events. Where does the so called circuit ground come from? The circuit ground is not provided by the power company, two hot and a neutral. Unless I am missing something, please explain.


I'd like that explained too. I've found numerous diagrams on the internet that show two buildings with power ran to them. Only 3 wires ran between then they show the universal sign that both buildings go to ground, signifying that ground is universal between buildings... so if building 1 is grounded and building 2 is grounded, the ground in building 1 should be the same ground in building 2...

Here's the first link I've found when googling... not me just skipping to the first one that proved my point...

http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...-panel-grounding-q-3-wire-feeder-detached.jpg

There was one other person in this forum thread that said it was OK to run only 2 hots and one neutral as long as no other metallic elements ran between the barn and the house. So maybe that's why it was safe until 2008 codes? Before 2008, running other circuits, like computer networks and phone networks weren't common place to run to a detached building? Right now the only "metallic elements" I have running from my house to my barn is the 2 hots and one neutral.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

dorlow said:


> I'd like that explained too. I've found numerous diagrams on the internet that show two buildings with power ran to them. Only 3 wires ran between then they show the universal sign that both buildings go to ground, signifying that ground is universal between buildings... so if building 1 is grounded and building 2 is grounded, the ground in building 1 should be the same ground in building 2...
> 
> Here's the first link I've found when googling... not me just skipping to the first one that proved my point...
> 
> ...


 Why in the he.. do you keep begging for justification on this site? Do what you will and be done with it. The experienced people here are not going to give you peace of mind.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> There was *one* other person in this forum thread that said it was OK to run only 2 hots and one neutral as long as no other metallic elements ran between the barn and the house. So maybe that's why it was safe until 2008 codes? Before 2008, running other circuits, like computer networks and phone networks weren't common place to run to a detached building? Right now the only "metallic elements" I have running from my house to my barn is the 2 hots and one neutral.


:icon_rolleyes:

And only 40 or 50 that said otherwise....but what do we know......


EDIT: So someone doesn't say I'm being "short", I'll expand....

That WAS code, prior to 2008. It has nothing to do with your electronic equipment. The NEC could care less of you fry your laptop...they care about you staying ALIVE.

New safety risks are found...codes adjust to suit.

What more can be said.....do what you want.


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## dorlow (Jan 3, 2012)

jproffer said:


> :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> And only 40 or 50 that said otherwise....but what do we know......
> 
> ...


You didn't understand what I was saying and what the other person was saying.... I know safety code doesn't care if I "fry my laptop." Just before 2008, it wasn't common place to run other circuits between buildings, so they didn't write a rule for it. With 2008 code, they figured out a lot more people were running other circuits between their buildings other than just electric which adds "another metallic element" between my house and my barn which excessive voltage could stray across instead of the ground bar at my barn. And because of this, they made it mandatory to run a separate ground between the house and the barn.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

dorlow said:


> You didn't understand what I was saying and what the other person was saying.... I know safety code doesn't care if I "fry my laptop." Just before 2008, it wasn't common place to run other circuits between buildings, so they didn't write a rule for it. With 2008 code, they figured out a lot more people were running other circuits between their buildings other than just electric which adds "another metallic element" between my house and my barn which excessive voltage could stray across instead of the ground bar at my barn. And because of this, they made it mandatory to run a separate ground between the house and the barn.


Oh................well OK then :thumbsup:

You are right........the rest of us are wrong.......do it your way.






















BTW, If you don't see the sarcasm there, then you have bigger problems than a poorly installed sub-panel.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

:furious: now you've made me go back on my word when I said I was done with this......


so now, I'm done with this.....again.................for now :jester:


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

Basically, the changes over time for grounding paths in the NEC are about probabilities and the correct determination of those based on empirical data right? 

Let's say this barn has a bonded panel with a three-wire feeder. As long as the neutral path to the transformer is good then there's no problems. 

It's about where that neutral path goes: subpanel, service disconnect, service drop, that increases the opportunity for an upstream issue creating a hazard in the barn. Back in the 30's, who cared? There was no empirical evidence for the danger. Then people started dieing in barns. Ok, the bonded panel in the barn needed to be directly connected to the service disconnect which reduced the number of places where that path back to the transformer could have "issues". Made things safer but by 2005 there was enough empirical data to show that even this was dangerous; if the single neutral path to the transformer was disrupted anywhere along the path to the barn, things got deadly in the barn again. So the 4-wire edict came into play. Now there are 2 separate return paths maintained all the way to the service drop. Much less of a chance to make one's body the path of least resistance. Still not zero though, so we have first GFCI and now AFCI requirements which are essentially an admission that there's always a chance that your body will make the best grounding path...

How close am I?

edit: I'm reminded of a time when I was a kid, playing in a barn and we found an old electric motor. I plugged that sucker into an outlet (one hand holding motor, the other holding plug) and got the pejeebees shocked out of me. Why? The metal case was energized due to a fault in the motor or God knows where else, and there was not a ground path (where all appliance metal cases now connect) back to the transformer. This was a two wire motor plugged into a two prong outlet. This was back int the 60s'... Barns were pretty dangerous places back then...

Just a quick nod to your "retro" barn wiring plans dorlow! You're making a barn that is just like the barns of old...


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

It used to be ok to run knob and tube wire also!


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

dorlow said:


> ...so if building 1 is grounded and building 2 is grounded, the ground in building 1 should be the same ground in building 2...


Sort of and also not at all!

The ground connection on an outlet which may go to the metal frame on an appliance like a washing machine does TWO things...

1. It is a lower resistance (measured in ohms) "path to ground" than your body is. Or in other words held at "ground potential" by that ground rod.

2. It is a low resistance (measured in ohms) path to neutral via the bond to neutral at the main panel. This will cause the circuit breaker to trip should an electrical malfunction occur which energizes the metal frame (hot wire short to metal frame).

So the questions are...

What is the resistance in ohms between two standard ground rods spaced 100 feet apart?

Is that resistance the *same* as with a large gauge ground wire connecting the two ground rods?

What is the resistance, measured in ohms, of your body measured from a hand to a foot?

Google the following words...

how to use an ohmmeter

ground resistance testing

Bottom Line: Case History of an Electrical Ground Failure - Loss of a Neutral Connection in an Electrical Sub Panel Badly Shocks a Homeowner...
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Neutral_Lost.htm


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

From the following link...

["For many years, the street lighting and traffic signaling industries used ground rods, without an effective fault current path, to ground metal parts of an electrical system. Electricians thought these installations were safe because “electricity takes the least resistive path, and it bypasses high resistive paths.” Unfortunately, such thinking resulted in several deaths."]

The Path of Least Resistance...
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_path_least_resistance/

More...

Resistance...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance_and_conductance

Ohm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Here's the first link I've found when googling... not me just skipping to the first one that proved my point...
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...-panel-grounding-q-3-wire-feeder-detached.jpg
> 
> There was one other person in this forum thread that said it was OK to run only 2 hots and one neutral as long as no other metallic elements ran between the barn and the house. So maybe that's why it was safe until 2008 codes?


That person would be me ... and the drawing in the link you posted is also mine.

But I did not say it was ok in your situation. What I said was if your electrical authority in your jurisdiction was still enforcing 2005 or earlier you* might* be able to run a 3 wire feeder. You said you don't have any metallic paths existing so that helps but you need to make sure your building inspection authority does not have an amendment saying otherwise. There are states that have made a 4 wire feeder mandatory due to safety concerns long before the NEC required such.

So you might be ok with what you did *but* a 4 wire feeder is much better for safety and design over a 3 wire feeder... *And ... you were required to run a 4 wire feeder because you are running it from a sub-panel not the service equipment. *Unless you take the initiative to find out you will never know if you are code compliant or not.

Much of your problem is you are very confused about the earth grounding ( ground rods) and equipment grounding ( wires and bonded metal ).

Earth grounding is referred to as your grounding electrode system (GES) and the bare and green green wires in your branch circuits are the Equipment Ground System.

They serve two entirely different purposes ... the *GES* protects property and equipment against *high* voltage events like lightning strikes and utility power surges. The *EGS *provides for human safety against *low* voltage ground faults and protects against shock and electrocution. So lets take a look at the differences..understanding that under 600 volts is considered low ac voltage and I don't think I need to tell you what lightning is ... 

The *EGS* is for human safety to keep you from getting electrocuted in the event of a ground fault. To understand this you first need to understand what is needed for an electrical circuit to function properly. So lets look at a diagram for starters that I have attached to this post.

*1st Diagram is attached below .. I will continue explaining with more diagrams if you or anyone else would like to continue this discussion but I will stop with this post if there is no interest ... 

*_It is important that you understand that current in any residential system seeks a return to the source transformer and it will take all paths provided intentionally or otherwise to __get there in order to complete the circuit. Current also shows preference to paths of low impedance/resistance and will take those paths in greater proportion. With that understanding we construct only *one* low impedance path for current to return to the source in order to prevent objectionable current showing up in places where it is unexpected and dangerous. 

Lastly the grounded legs (aka neutrals or white wires) of 120 volt branch circuits are current carrying wires just like hot wires and are just as likely to shock you ... never confuse them as the same as equipment ground wires which are only meant to carry current briefly during a ground fault event until the breaker opens on overcurrent and de-energizes the circuit.

_Notice in the diagram the alternating current (red dots) begins and returns to the source (transformer). Notice also that I show no current going to earth. The reason is that the resistance of dirt (as compared to low resistance/impedance of wires) is so high that current will not 'choose' to go to earth because we have intentionally constructed a low resistance/impedance path back to the transformer over ungrounded and grounded conductors with the service neutral being a very key player for a couple reasons. It is the only low impedance/resistance path from the service equipment to the transformer center tap. Without that link to complete the circuit your electrical system could not operate anything needing 120 volts like lights and appliances...and...your circuit breakers would not be able to trip on ground fault. 

As long as that stays in place and remains unbroken 99.9999% of all neutral current will use it to return the source. This is a result of a secondary low voltage source transformer serving the house at 240/120 volts over *3 wires* (H-H-N).

As long as this circuit is intact and there are no ground faults .. all is well. Remember you do not need the connection to earth as shown by the ground rods for your electrical system to operate. These are present for property protection as mentioned earlier and to a small degree earthing helps stabilize voltages in the event of a lost service neutral. 

Also you do not need the ground rods for circuit breakers to trip that is the purpose of the EGS not the GES.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

zappa said:


> Thanks for taking the time to draw it out Stubbie. I for one learn much easier with pictures and drawings vs. written words.


Your welcome .. any questions ?


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> Your welcome .. any questions ?


Thanks for asking but I'm ok here. I think your last post grew somewhat so I went back and read some more. :yes:

I'm very interested in 3 wire service extensions but I still need to read the code that you pointed me to. I started a pedestal thread if you care to look it over and make sure I'm not heading in the wrong direction.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

zappa said:


> Thanks for asking but I'm ok here. I think your last post grew somewhat so I went back and read some more. :yes:
> 
> I'm very interested in 3 wire service extensions but I still need to read the code that you pointed me to. I started a pedestal thread if you care to look it over and make sure I'm not heading in the wrong direction.


 Ok I'll take a look at it . 

Sorry about the long post but the subject we are talking about with the OP is not one that can be explained easily in a few sentences. It's going to take a while if he is interested. My hope is he can see the danger in the way he is wiring his barn panel to direct ground fault current to earth via his grounding rod. He is thinking and evidently listening to locals telling him this is how it should be done.

I'll post a illustration of his barn panel showing where he has made a serious error by thinking the ground rod (earth) is what is needed to protect him from ground faults like a hot wire coming in contact with the metal of his barn panel. Understand though he has run his feeder from a panel other than the service equipment and would be required to run a *4 wire* feeder to his barn. However he ran a *3* wire feeder from that house panel so the illustration is showing what is wrong with his barn panel bonding based on a proper and code compliant 3 wire feeder.

The red dots show the only path available for a ground fault on the branch circuit is to earth. If that happens the barn panel metal and any other bonded metal on that branch circuit is going to reach 120 volts and the breaker will not have enough current flow through it to trip out and de-energize the circuit. The earth will not allow enough current to flow at 120 volts with the resistance it imposes.


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## mikey48 (Dec 6, 2007)

The scariest thing about this thread is the school electrician that told him 3 wire is correct. He has been doing it for many years and probably will not change. That sounds very familiar in many professions. Sad they do not keep up with changes.


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## pokey (Nov 24, 2011)

While I certainly hope the o. p. takes the advice offered in this thread by all you very knowledgeable and professional people, I will also say that, because of his stubborness, this thread has become the most interesting and informative one I have ever read. Thank you all for the lesson. Everyday I learn how much I do not know.


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## <*(((>< (Mar 6, 2009)

pokey said:


> Everyday I learn how much I do not know.


I feel the same way! But I always love learning things I don't know!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

There seems to be enough interest by other people that I'll go ahead and finish out what I intended. 

So I guess the best thing to do is discuss another diagram. What this diagram shows is the path the NEC refers to as "the effective ground fault path". Which is essentially a low impedance path that will complete a circuit with a hot wire over the equipment ground wires and bonded metal of your branch circuit in the event of a ground fault. An example would be as shown in the diagram. When the hot wire contacts the metal device box it immediately energizes the box and fault current flows over the intentionally constructed 'effective ground fault path" as it seeks the transformer (*source). Since there is no load to limit the current massive amps will flow on the completed fault path circuit. These amps must pass thru the circuit breaker protecting the branch circuit where the fault has occurred and it opens on overcurrent and de-energizes the circuit. 

The key point here is that only one low impedance path exists from the service equipment to the center tap of the transformer and that is the service neutral. Because of this both fault current and neutral current must use this link to get to the transformer. How we make sure that happens is to bond both neutral and ground to the service neutral (grounded conductor) at the service equipment.

So it is critical that this low impedance "effective ground fault path" is unbroken so that a circuit breaker can clear the ground fault once the fault circuit energizes. If you notice the effective ground fault path runs parallel to the neutral (grounded leg) of the branch circuit *but never* connects to or contacts the neutral until it bonds with it at the service equipment before reaching the transformer. So the purpose of the equipment grounding system (EGS) is to bond all metal likely to be energized in a ground fault to the effective ground fault path so that a circuit breaker will trip and clear the fault.

The principal point I'm making here is that you never bound neutral and ground after the service equipment (load side). If you do then you will allow neutral current to use the effective ground fault path where it is unwanted and dangerously unexpected as it returns to the source. The effective ground fault path is only there to complete a circuit with the transformer in the event of a fault with a hot wire to bonded metal or equipment ground wires. It plays no part other than human safety during the typical operation of your electrical system.

The last thing to picture in your head is opening or breaking that effective ground fault path. So picture removing the equipment ground wire of the branch circuit shown at the service equipment neutral bar where it bonds with the grounded conductor of the utility. You have effectively opened the fault circuit and all metal that is likely to be energized at the origin of the fault (metal device box) to the service equipment will come to line voltage of 120 volts and a breaker cannot trip as there will be no current flow due to the loss of the effective ground fault path.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I think I will just summarize the OP's situation and then post a couple diagrams.

1.) Dorlow has an unknown wiring issue at his service equipment ... there are 5 wires entering from the meter socket ... should only be 3 wires.

2.) 4 wires feed the interior house load center .. which is correct.. however the panel has bonded neutral and ground (you never do this on 4 wire feeders) and is allowing neutral current to utilize the feeder ground coming fron the service equipment to return to the source. This is a dangerous and major code violation. Also notice that at his service equipment the egc is connected to the grounding lug and will need to utilize the metal of the enclosure to reach the service neutral .. another code violation.

3.) 3 wire feeder to sub-panel installed next to 1st sub-panel that feeder needs to be 4 wire which mandatory by code. That feeder needs to be in conduit due to individual wires... big violation. Also even though it is 3 wire feeder he does not have his bonding means installed to the metal of the sub-panel. Any fault to that metal will energize it and a breaker will not trip.

4.) 3 wire feeder to barn panel. Since the feeder originates from a sub panel other than the service equipment *it is required to be 4 wire* for a couple reasons. One .. all panels after the service equipment that are installed in the same structure as the service equipment require 4 wire feeders. Due to this requirement neutral and ground must be separated (*not bonded*). If you bond them then you have created a parallel path for neutral current to use metal and the equipment ground of the feeder to return to the source transformer. So the *barn panel feeder originates* in a panel that is required to be served by a 4 wire feeder therefore the feeder to the barn panel must be 4 wire. The 3 wire exception allowed in 2005 and prior does not apply. It would only be possible if the feeder originates at the service equipment. 

5.) Barn panel is wired to direct fault current to ground (earth) due to improper bonding. *Assuming* this was a code compliant 3 wire feeder if an inspector saw this he probably would put a work stoppage tag on the permit and require an electrician to finish the job. As it is the entire installation from the service equipment to the barn shows a total lack of understanding. 

Ok diagrams ... first one is a improperly bonded 3 wire feeder from the service equipment to a detached building. Second one is a improper 4 wire feeder to same.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Stubbie, that was a very nice piece of writing, and I certainly appreciate it. I do have a question. You, and everyone else who appears to know anything about standard wiring, state:

"2.) 4 wires feed the interior house load center .. which is correct.. however the panel has bonded neutral and ground (you never do this on 4 wire feeders) and is allowing neutral current to utilize the feeder ground coming fron the service equipment to return to the source. _*this is a dangerous and major code violation.*_"

I have emphasized the last part of the sentence. I understand this is a violation of CURRENT code, but as you and others have pointed out, it is NOT a violation of historical code more than say 10 years old. The part I am a bit puzzled about is the claim that returning current on the independent equipment ground is dangerous.

EXACTLY why is it dangerous? Let's look at this question with an open mind, and ignore the fact that it is a violation of code. First off, the IEG is at least in theory at zero potential, just like the neutral, since it is bonded to the neutral at the service entrance, and has little resistance. In practice then, even if you touched the IEG and it was carrying neutral current, you would receive at most a slight tingle, assuming you are at zero potential (you are grounded). This is of course no different than if you touched the neutral wire, or a piece of equipment that the neutral was touching (assuming a neutral fault condition).

So the fact that the IEG is carrying current at zero potential is not going to harm you (at least in theory) if you touch it. Let's see if there is some other problem with the IEG carrying current. Well, it might be undersized to carry the current. This could be an issue, possibly it will get too hot and will damage insulation. I can see that possibility.

The IEG is not designed to carry current under normal conditions. I get that. But that is a far distance from proving that it is dangerous for the IEG to carry current during normal conditions. My question is, if the IEG were sized the same as the neutral, and perhaps insulated like the neutral, what would be dangerous about allowing it to act as a parallel neutral path under normal conditions?


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> My question is, if the IEG were sized the same as the neutral, and perhaps insulated like the neutral, what would be dangerous about allowing it to act as a parallel neutral path under normal conditions?


If the neutral wire was to come loose (a common problem because some people do not torque the lugs to the proper tightness as they should), there would be no indication there was a problem with the electric system.

And likewise, if the ground wire was to come loose, testers would indicate the ground was OK.

It is for the same reason(s) there is a separate ground wire to each outlet.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

BillyBob, there would be no indication of a neutral fault based on performance of the equipment, because it would still run. This is correct. 

Similarly, if the IEG becomes disconnected, and you have a current code compliant installation, there is no indication of a problem, because the equipment continues to operate even though you no longer have a functional IEG. The only way to tell would be to run a ground fault test on the wire. Of course, this is rarely done except when there is a problem, so I maintain that under current code, there is no obvious indication that an IEG has come loose until you need it, when of course it may be too late.

So are you saying that an undetected neutral fault is somehow more dangerous than an undetected IEG fault? And in the situation I presented, where the two are bonded at the equipment, you could argue that the presence of a parallel path was actually safer than independent paths, because equipment would continue to operate even in the event of a fault on either the neutral or the IEG, and if they both faulted, then the equipment would not operate.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Dan

Excellent question BTW ... :thumbsup:

One clarification it's the EGC ... 

Your actually close to correct especially at the service equipment where you should have very close to zero potential between neutral and ground. As you move farther away there will some potential due to voltage drop. You could be shocked if you put yourself in series with the neutral under load or contacted the neutral or the energized EGC and another low impedance path that returned to the transformer. Other wise you likely would not be harmed under normal conditions. The farther away you get from the service equipment the more likely you are to come in contact with any objectionable neutral current on metal or the egc.. Metal conduits are especially suspect. As you know it doesn't take a lot of current and voltage to electrocute you. 

This diagram from mike holt closely shows what the op in this thread has going on ... however you are correct as your question is ....



> My question is, if the IEG were sized the same as the neutral, and perhaps insulated like the neutral, what would be dangerous about allowing it to act as a parallel neutral path under normal conditions?


Very little danger provided we are not way downstream of the service equipment where human contact with bonded metal is increased and voltage drop is increased. An insulated egc also helps. However even though it is insulated the metal it bonds is not. 

The other danger for humans is getting yourself in series with this current. 

I still stand behind it being dangerous both in fire hazard and human safety. As BB said an open neutral between panels with 4 wire feeders that have neutral to ground bonds will never let you know that your metal and EGC is energized with neutral current. 

I do hope you understand that neutral current will kill you .. I am assuming here you are taking issue with the fact that I'm saying it is a dangerous situation for human safety.


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

Objectionable current...

So far the discussion has been regarding the load side of the service disconnecting means. I think it is interesting that anything on the line side of a service (including meter sockets, troughs, cabinets, etc) is normally bonded to nuetral. I think it is odd that it is OK to have that objectionable current on a metal raceway that extends between a meter socket and a main service panel, when it is taboo to have it on feeder conduits.:huh:


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

junkcollector said:


> Objectionable current...
> 
> So far the discussion has been regarding the load side of the service disconnecting means. I think it is interesting that anything on the line side of a service (including meter sockets, troughs, cabinets, etc) is normally bonded to nuetral. I think it is odd that it is OK to have that objectionable current on a metal raceway that extends between a meter socket and a main service panel, when it is taboo to have it on feeder conduits.:huh:


I see your point but somethings just can't be perfect and the code is trying to minimize the risk as much as possible. The panel needs to be bonded to the neutral for safety and it can't be done any further back towards the meter socket/transformer. I guess you could continue this scenario all the way back to the generator.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

I think what I mean to say is that it protects the general public as much as possible from things they come in contact with.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

junkcollector said:


> Objectionable current...
> 
> So far the discussion has been regarding the load side of the service disconnecting means. I think it is interesting that anything on the line side of a service (including meter sockets, troughs, cabinets, etc) is normally bonded to nuetral. I think it is odd that it is OK to have that objectionable current on a metal raceway that extends between a meter socket and a main service panel, when it is taboo to have it on feeder conduits.:huh:


Nothing is perfect and they call it objectionable current .. not deadly current .. though it can be under the correct circumstances.


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## kwilcox (Nov 19, 2011)

Damn... the light bulb just came on  That Mike Holt diagram was perfect! I've always struggled with bonding and code from an understanding perspective. Parallel neutral currents... Of course! This has got to be the best thread ever! :thumbsup:


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> Nothing is perfect and they call it objectionable current .. not deadly current .. though it can be under the correct circumstances.


Hey!!!!!!!! What happened to the picture? That was an excellent response. :laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

zappa said:


> Hey!!!!!!!! What happened to the picture? That was an excellent response. :laughing:


I wasn't sure the administrator would appreciate it ...  It also wasn't entirely correct as the conduit from the meter to the panel is not the responsibility of the utility lineman. They do work on stuff that is pretty scary and IMO need bigger


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

dorlow said:


> Ok, so I know very little about electrical other than what others have told me. I just installed electric in my barn. I wanted to pay others but just couldn't justify spending $3,000+ when I could do it myself for about $500.


I think my garage subpanel and feeder project ran in the neighborhood of $1500. You probably missed some parts.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think that while some big things have been pointed out, there are some I wanted to cover in case they had not been pointed out. 



> So, I ran two 2 gauge and one 4 gauge wire from my house service panel to my barn. The two gauge wires are hooked up to a 100 amp two pole breaker. The 4 gauge wire is hooked to neutral.


Your neutral wire should be the same size as your hot wires, or I imagine you could use a hot wire that's bigger than your neutral if your circuit was sized for the smaller neutral wire.

Let's set that aside and say you're using 2 gage aluminum. There has been discussion here that the table in NEC that says you can use 2 gage aluminum for 100 amps applies to the service entrance, but for the table that you SHOULD be using 2 gage aluminum can only be used up to 90 amps. You'd need to step down to 4 gage, which I don't know off the top of my head you can get for amperage.

My garage subpanel is 100 amps and I'm using 2/0 for both hots and the neutral. I pulled 4 gage copper for my ground PLUS I used metal conduit which is also allowed to be used as your ground conductor if it is continuous between both panels, but that is much more difficult and costly to do.

As has been covered very well, you need the ground conductor.

You also mentioned it was inside condut for the risers. If your pictures are an indication, assuming you used PVC this conduit should have been schedule 80, schedule 40 is too thin for physical protection. Some inspectors might accept schedule 40, but the NEC can be read as requiring schedule 80. You would need to be buried 24 inches deep or more IIRC for direct burial.



> In the barn, I hooked up the two 2 gauge wires to a 100 amp main breaker in the barn and the neutral wire to the neutral bar. I pounded in a ground bar in and hooked it up with a ground wire to the ground bar in the box.


You should have 2 ground rods pounded in at the barn, both connected to the panel. At the panel these connect to your ground bar, the ground screw that connects the ground bar to the neutral should be removed as has been covered here by the others.


> But I'm also wondering if we did things wrong because when we first moved in the house, my dad wired a sub panel downstairs next to the main panel.


From your pictures, it looks like that subpanel is connected by individual conductors which should have been inside conduit from one panel to the other.



> Actually I just took off my covers off all my panels and looked at the way everything is wired. From my meter outside my house to inside my house, there's a first “service box” in my basement. It has a huge one breaker, a neutral terminal and a ground terminal. (That was one thing I was a little confused... if I had neutral and ground from outside the house... or if neutral was ground.)
> 
> From there, all 4 wires go to my main service box where all the breakers are at. Right there, I'm not 100% sure why they did what they did, but the neutral and ground bars are connected and the neutrals and grounds are just randomly hooked to the same two bars in whatever order they felt like... (I am attaching pictures of all the subpanels.) I think from what I understand it was ok with electrical code to do this until the sub panel was added...
> 
> The main panel was the only panel when we moved into the house.


Leave the main panel alone, it's fine to have neutral and ground on the same bar on the main panel and quite normal.



> When we moved into the house, we wanted to have an electric stove and dryer. So, my dad came over and helped us wire two 220 outlets... one for our stove and one for our dryer. There wasn't room in our main service box to add two 2 pole breakers (I think that's what it is when it uses up two spots and has 220.) Looking at that sub panel though, it only has one spot to put the neutrals and grounds... they're not separated at all.


It sounds like this was done without a permit, and as I said the subpanel feeder would have had to have been done in conduit. I don't know the rules on whether a subpanel right next to a main requires seperate neutral, but I think that seperate neutral is required and as far as I know going that way is definitely allowed.

Regardless, the right thing to do would be that his gets permitted and inspected after the fact.



> From that sub panel that has the dryer and stove on it, we added another 100 amp breaker to it and ran that to my barn. It has three wires... two hots and one neutral/ground wire.
> 
> In the barn, the panel out there has two separate bars, one for ground and one for neutral. From the factory, there was a metal strap that went behind the hot bar and connected the neutral and ground bars. Right now I have the strap removed so neutral and ground is separated and the ground bar is connected to the case. Also I drove a ground rod in outside the barn and connected that to the ground bar.


If you intend to use the wire you have, you should replace the breaker in your subpanel in the house with a 60 amp breaker, not a 100 amp breaker. The 100 amp breaker in the barn can stay as it's used as a shutoff, and an overcurrent condition would trip the breaker in the house.

If you intend to use 100 amps in the barn, you need to replace your wire.

Regardless, you should pull a permit. Your trench will need to be inspected before dirt is put back into it. You need to dig the trench anyway to put in the ground conductor even if you downsize circuit breakers to use the existing wires.

And don't even turn on your breaker in the house for this for testing or anything until you pass rough inspection.



> I think the more I look at things, I should have my main service box have all the grounds and neutrals separated and then the two sub service boxes after that should be separated. But, again, I'm not an electrician, so I really don't know for sure.


This is the thing you've described that isn't broken, so don't try to fix it.




> Here's a description of the attached pictures...
> 
> 
> First picture is the first service box that's the electric comes directly from the meter outside our house.
> ...


Your panel is a main lug, i.e. doesn't have its own main breaker/shutoff. You must have a panel with a main breaker in your barn. And running that wire for your test outlet right across the hot bus!!! It looks as if the ground wire from your NM cable could just about be touching the hot! Run that along the outside of the box.


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## pete0403 (Dec 22, 2010)

This thread has been an incridible read and I've been surfing all day on different aspects of house wiring. I find it so interesting and if I had to do it over again, I'd probably become an electrician.

Here is a link I found while looking at some other sites. It's not totally relevant to what's being discussed here. It's a PPT presentation on the importance of neutrals in a branched circuit and is an example of how voltage could be carried on the ground if the neutral and ground bus of a subpanel were bonded. This put on the light bulb over my head on the importance of neutrals


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