# Napoleon Gas Fireplace Problem



## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

I recently finished my basement and had a contractor install a Napoleon Gas stove. When the temperature outside is above freezing the stove works fine. As soon as the temperature drops below zero the flame in the stove starts drawing back towards the fresh air vent which comes from the back of the stove. With the flame pulled down and toward the rear of the unit it sets off an overtemp sensor in the stove and shuts off the pilot light. It also heated up the piezio ignitor so much that it melted the wire.

The contractor felt that the fresh air opening feeding the unit was not large enough so we opened it up significantly. This did nothing to recitify the problem. When I finished the basement I did not put in a cold air return. Could this cause a pressure differential severe enough to prevent the gas stove from operating properly. If so why would it work when its warm outside? My ceiling is drywall but is below the floor joists so I could with some difficulty get at the existing cold air ductwork and place a return in the room. Before I do I just wanted to get someone's opinion if this would rectify my currrent gas stove issues.

Is there a way to test the theory before going to all the work?

Thanks for any help.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Is this a ventless unit. post model number. And pics of install if you can.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

A cold air return won't make any difference and may make the problem worse. You have a venting/draft problem with the stove. As it gets colder the draft increases as that is the way draft and thermodynamics work. I am wondering if there is not some type of orifice plate missing from the combustion air supply pipe to the stove. Get him to check with Napoleon. Too much draft may be the problem. You may also have a negative pressure problem in your house and need a combustion air pipe to the furnace room. If the stove is sealed properly you shouldn't but I have seen it happen. When the flame disturbance starts get the wife to open a door on the main floor 1" while you watch the flame and see if the problem goes away. If it does then you need a combustion air pipe to the furnace room to break the negative pressure. Post some pics of the stove from all sides so we can tell what type it is.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

The Unit model is GDS60. I took some pictures but I am trying to figure out how to post them for you.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

I opened the front door on the main floor and the flame still fed back under the plate that holds the logs towards the fresh air intake. In the installation guide for this unit there is an area where it mentions taking off an access plate on the back of the stove and removing and discarding the air intake cover. According to the instructions this is only for GS60 stoves with a B-Vent installation. My unit is a GSD60 but there is an access plate on the back of the unit in the same location. The B-Vent is a setup where the unit is vented from the top like mine is but the chimney is different with an inline adapter where the spill switch is relocated to. If my unit is equipped with this same air intake cover I suppose he could have removed it by mistake.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

How is your chimney ran?


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> How is your chimney ran?


The chimney is runnning vertical from the fireplace with a 90 degree to the wall exiting outside. It is well within the run limits of the installation guide.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Post pics of the outside termination.

Is the intake on the same wall as the chimney.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Post pics of the outside termination.
> 
> Is the intake on the same wall as the chimney.


The chimney goes up the centre of the black steel pipe. The fresh air comes down the outside of the chimney between the chimney and the steel pipe. It feeds in the top of the stove and then is direct through a channel towards the back of the unit and then down to come out the bottom of the cumbustion chamber underneath the support for the artificle logs.

The flame is then drawn backwards towards the fresh air supply underneath the log support. This is also where the ignitor and termocouple are located. 

The unit looks like an old fashioned stand alone stove with the black vent pipe extending from the top about 54 inches with a 24 inch 90 degree to outside.

The outside termination is a typical aluminum gas fireplace terminal. The termination point is however fairly close to ground level. Not sure on how many inches clearance there is but a snorkel termination probably should have been used because it is less than 12 inches from grade. The termination faces north. Winds are typically out of the north west. There is a 4 foot decorative brick wall extending approx 3 feet from the house in close proximity to the exhaust vent location. I am assuming this would blanket it from wind disturbance. Not sure if any of this would cause the problem I am having.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Ok.

How high is the flue pipe/chimney before it goes out the wall.
Post pic of it.
Post pic of the hole he made larger.
And of the chimney termination outside.

Is anything close to the termination outside.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Ok.
> 
> How high is the flue pipe/chimney before it goes out the wall.
> Post pic of it.
> ...


 
I think I know how to post the pics now. Will take some more tonight and put them up. Thanks for thinking about this one.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

*Pictures of Gas Stove*

Here are some pictures of the Gas stove


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I hate to be negative but that looks like a bad termination setup outside. It will be prone to snow buildup blocking it and you do get exhaust ice buildup when it runs. I have seen lots of them get partly blocked and then they burn dirty and foul up the inside of the stove with carbon and can produce CO. If it can be snorkeled up that would be a lot better. Is it windy all the time when your problem happens. Sounds like you are getting cold denser air and a swirling effect which is affecting your draft. The engineers design those stoves for an unobstructed termination and a flat wall with a recommended ground clearance etc.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

I removed the front glass of the unit to provide a better picture of the log support. The flame is being drawn back under this support where the fresh air is coming down the pipe to this point from outside. With the glass off and the fireplace open the flames works fine. As soon as the glass is put back on the flame is drawn towards the fresh air.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

yuri said:


> I hate to be negative but that looks like a bad termination setup outside. It will be prone to snow buildup blocking it and you do get exhaust ice buildup when it runs. I have seen lots of them get partly blocked and then they burn dirty and foul up the inside of the stove with carbon and can produce CO. If it can be snorkeled up that would be a lot better. Is it windy all the time when your problem happens. Sounds like you are getting cold denser air and a swirling effect which is affecting your draft. The engineers design those stoves for an unobstructed termination and a flat wall with a recommended ground clearance etc.


I have asked the installer to get me the snorkel vent. I don't think that this will fix the problem but you are correct about the snow possibly causing a blockage. This year there has not been alot of snow around here. I have never seen it blocked. We did place some plywood around the vent to see if air turbulence was creating the problem. There was no change in how the stove operated. There is usually a breeze here and it can get quite windy. Tonight there is little to no wind and the stove is u/s. This will be the third winter that we have been unable to use the stove. It works great when the temperature is warm outside. Unfortunately we don't need it then.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Once again I hate to be negative but you have a serious fire hazard if that unit does not burn properly. It will warp the metal and burners and damage the logs etc. I would send these pics to Napoleon and ask them if it can be made to work in your location. They have engineers and we can say anything over the net but they know their product better.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I have seen some seriously warped and damaged stoves and fireplaces over the years and yours SCARES ME. A family of 4 died in Ontario last year from a malfunctioning fireplace so I am quite concerned with what you have going there. There are no flame rollout switches and other protections for proper combustion that a modern furnace has. It can burn VERY dirty and not overheat and you won't know it until it is too late. CO is odorless.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If you can snorkel it above that sidewall you may be okay. May look ugly and will need to be insulated so the smoke does not condense inside and freeze up and create a similar problem.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Being vented in that corner is probably what is causing your reverse venting problem.

Do the install instructions allow if to be within 1" of an inside corner. Most don't if they aren't fan assisted.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

According to the installation guide the termination vent can be 2 inches from the inside corner and should be 12 inches from the ground. Mine is not 12 inches. If this is the cause I will be very happy as the snorkel vent I have ordered should rectify the problem. When I have had the front glass off the unit you can feel the cold air falling down the chimney. I was thinking there was a negative pressure in my basement.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Hot air rises and cold air settles so that is normal. I would still send the pics to Napoleon and get their opinion to be on the safe side. Is removing the decorative wall an option? I would think it would be a lot better off with a flat wall. You need a CO detector in your basement and one by your bedroom.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

I have contacted Napoleon directly but they were absolutely no help whatsoever. They only asked who the installer was as which outlet that the gas stove was purchased from. They would not deal with me directly. The last stove I had was a Vermont Casting which worked perfectly. I can tell you at the moment I am not very satisfied with Napoleon or its customer support.

As you say the air flow is going the opposite way. The pilot should provide enough heat to cause the air to flow up the chimney. I may have to install a power vent system. Luckily if I have to do this I have access to power and an unfinished outside wall to the left of the stove in a storage room.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I think you'll find that inside wall and being so close to the walk is the problem.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yep. I am impressed with Vermont more than the other guy. The manufacturers don't have access to all the different real world conditions that fireplaces and stoves have to work in and neither do the furnace companies. Servicetechs do and nothing compensates for experience. And we know Winter real well where I am.:yes:

The pilot will not provide enough heat to support a draft. I have customers with $500,000 homes and internal chimneys and tell them to run the fireplace once a week to get some flow thru it or they freezeup etc.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

John, This story hits HARD and close to your home:
http://www.oafc.on.ca/content_details.asp?itemcode=OAFC-NEWS-NEWS&itemid=2453&itemtype=News


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

yuri said:


> John, This story hits HARD and close to your home:
> http://www.oafc.on.ca/content_details.asp?itemcode=OAFC-NEWS-NEWS&itemid=2453&itemtype=News


Thanks for the concern. I have 4 or 5 CO detectors in my home. One is located right behind the fireplace. With it not operating correctly it did spll CO into my home


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Scary stuff. 
NO gas stove or fireplace will ever truly be airtight and all have the potential to spill/produce CO. Gaskets get damaged, metal and doors get warped etc.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

yuri said:


> Scary stuff.
> NO gas stove or fireplace will ever truly be airtight and all have the potential to spill/produce CO. Gaskets get damaged, metal and doors get warped etc.


As an Hvac professional do you think it could be caused by a negative pressure in my basement causing the air from outside to be drawn into my basement? I am fairly certain if I opened the window by the fireplace for a while that the pressure would equalize and the stove would function properly. But it would freeze my son out of his bedroom.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

NO. The stove if it is not badly damaged (which it may be, I would have to see it) or has warped leaking doors should be airtight enough that whatever happens in the house/basement should not affect it. You would need a huge negative pressure to bother it then and would have problems with your furnace and water heater (unless they are electric) if that was the case. Negative pressure is rare as most homes are not that airtight unless less than 10 yrs old. I have seen flames jumping off burners and scenarios like yours and it is 99% venting related and 1% improper burner setup. Most newer units are factory preset burners and not adjustable in the field anymore.


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## John.Davis (Feb 8, 2010)

I am in now way an expert but this stove has not seen much in the way of operation. When it is warm outside it will work properly for hours. That being said 5 - 10 hours operation time is all its had in the last three years. When its cold the flame will pull back under the log support and within 30 secs it shuts off the pilot light. I think there is a spill switch which triggers this. Anyway....I don't think it has run long enough to bend anything. My home is approx 6 yrs old. It has an ICF foundation. I know its not completely air tight as I have some weather stripping around my doors that I need to fix. I bought one of those temperature sensors from Canadian Tire and was shocked at the heat loss. Is it possible that the fireplace itself is a lemon? My impression is that this would be unlikely as all it is, is a burner vented to the outside. I would assume if I purchased another unit it would do the same thing.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, we are now getting to the point where I would have to see the unit myself to give you better advice. We are busy here and at $80/hr I doubt if you want to pay for my travelling time. I would try a couple of fireplace professional dealers if you have them for other ideas, not sure how large your city/town is. I doubt if our gas inspectors would have allowed it to be installed that low to the ground as they go thru the install manual with a magnifying glass now. I am not familiar with power vented units but our Beenthere tech and others may have some they can recommend. Back tomorrow.

Good Luck:thumbsup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

They wouldn't pass it being that low to the sidewalk.

I've never seen a gas stove on a power vent.


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## oldguy2 (Jan 14, 2009)

*fireplace*

the outside vent cap looks like its upside down to me arrow on cap should be pointing up. or you may need a restrictor plate put in the vent. i know this cuz ive had to install them every time the vent is vertical to keep the flames from lifting.


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## log_doc_rob (Sep 5, 2009)

Is this stove operating on natural gas or propane? If it's LP, check to see if the stove is properly set up for natural gas. If it is set up for natural gas and you are using PL, then you have seriously overfired the unit and have damaged it beyond repair. The way the burner is warped, there is DEFINITELY an unsafe problem with it.

If you are using LP, check the vent on the gas regulator to see if it is allowing water into the regulator and freezing when it gets cold, thus over pressuring the stove. 

I don't like the way the termination is mounted, too close to the ground and in a corner like that. Direct vent gas appliances are very touchy when it comes to venting.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

I am in the planning stage for installing a NG stove in my house!
I have been looking a the Napoleon stoves. In fact I have a copy of their installation requirements!

The air terminal is to be installed 12" above grade, porch or deck!

It requires zero clearance to a none combustible inside wall or protrusion!

A note at the bottom stipulates that a 'snorkle' (GD201) requires 18" from an inside corner.

Using a power vent would concern me! What would happen in the event that power is lost. There would have to be a safety interlock to shut the stove off! One advantage of using a stove like this, is its capability to operate during power interruptions.

From what I observe from your photo's, your install isn't that far removed from the install requirements!
If you had snow blockage, I could understand this happening in cold weather, but it seems to function properly above freezing. But fails when its freezing!
My gut feeling is that the stove is starving for air! The question is why?
You say that if the stove is used with 'B' vent a baffle is to be removed. As far as I know, B vent cannot carry incoming air, so I assume that the removal off the baffle allows combustion air to be drawn from inside the house.
Perhaps if you removed this baffle, and allowed air to be drawn from the house, it would prove the point, of whether there is sufficient combustion air.
One other point, have you taken the chimney pipes down and examined them to make sure that there isn't a foreign blockage in one of these!


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## pcampbell (Feb 7, 2008)

2 quick questions 

Is it legal to run a NG exhaust/chimney horizontally through a wall like that???

Is the Napoleon a "sealed" burner system, and would this matter with regard to CO emissions......


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Fireplaces are what we call "direct vent" appliances and can be vented vertical like a chimney or horizontal thru a wall with the proper kit. Most fireplaces are airtight, take the combustion air from outside. The venting is actually 2 pipes. Internal pipe is for exhaust and outer pipe which wraps around it brings in the combustion air and under the burner. Not sure about CO emissions? If setup properly it produces mostly C02 and very little C0.


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## ausblake (Aug 12, 2009)

Does the flame turn deep blue right before it goes out?


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