# What is a reasonable cost?



## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Im trying to get quotes for a new roof. I have a 3200 sqft roof that has a 12/12 pitch, 4 valleys and a chimney and one vent stack. Ive already gotten one quote but it seems really high. 

I have asked for a complete tearoff and re-roof. What would be a reasonable price to pay? I was quoted 11K by the first company.


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## jankencanada (Jul 23, 2010)

Based only on my own experience....Simple roof shape. Bungalow.

Work out the retail cost of the shingles. Then double it

= Cost of complete job.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Geeezzz,,,,$11,000 for a 32sq. 12/12 ????? Way tooooo cheap for my area.


$343 per sq.,.,.,.,.,., I can assume the others will be much higher.


I charge and get over $343 per sq. for a 4/12 max.


If it were my bid I would bid it between $800-$1000 per sq.


Between $25,600-$32,000 would be a solid number.That would also be if it were only 1 layer and I would have to know you.Also if it was a single story.And a 25 year 3 tab only.


Man,,,That is unbelievable $11,000 for a 32sq. 12/12. I have charged $1000+ per sq. for steep like that.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Geeezzz,,,,$11,000 for a 32sq. 12/12 ????? Way tooooo cheap for my area.
> 
> 
> $343 per sq.,.,.,.,.,., I can assume the others will be much higher.
> ...


I don't do roofing for a living but I couldn't agree more, I had 75% of the roof quoted to me for 150% of the cost on 4/12 pitch at least 3 years ago. There has to be a danger factor in there.

I would say that at 11k its a FBN contractor.

Mark


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Jackofall1 said:


> I don't do roofing for a living but I couldn't agree more, I had 75% of the roof quoted to me for 150% of the cost on 4/12 pitch at least 3 years ago. There has to be a danger factor in there.
> 
> I would say that at 11k its a FBN contractor.
> 
> Mark


What does the term "FBN" Contractor mean?


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

mr smiley said:


> what does the term "fbn" contractor mean?


*fly by night!!!!!*


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

So that may be why on the estimate they had "Reuse all #30 felt/replace as necessary"


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I am sure if you looked a bit harder at your estimate it might contain some more little nasties.

IMO and this is my opinion felt should be a necessity for removal.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I am sure if you looked a bit harder at your estimate it might contain some more little nasties.
> 
> IMO and this is my opinion felt should be a necessity for removal.


When I get home here shortly I may just type out what they put down for the estimate.


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

The truth is ... That bid is reasonable.. 

I wanna roof in Springfield..  You don't do much insurance work do you Roofmaster. What would you charge for slate.. lol


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

$11K is sub wages about 10 years ago for a job like that.

We aren't as high as Roofmaster says he is and would never use 3 tabs, but we would be close. If it was a 4/12 pitch we would be a little over $11K for 30 square with valleys.

You sure they were doing a tear off?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

MJW is right. That price is more appropriate for a 1 layer tear-off and shingle replacement on a walkable pitched roof, not a 45* angled 12/12 cut up roof that is not a straight and easy shot to do.

The "Starting" price on a roof like you described, Not Including any ventilation and Ice and Water Shield or Sheet Metal Flashing work required would be about 1 1/2 times your quoted amount and would increase even more if you went with a higher quality shingle versus the standard bottom of the barrel quality.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Also, if you really wanted your quote to be scrutinized, you could scan the entire document, including all pages and create a Word Document to be able to upload and do an Attachment and provide a copy of it right here in this forum, instead of re-typing everything out, possibly ommiting some crucial contract lingo.

Ed


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

Like I said I would like to see an ins. breakdown that shows that kind of reimbursement for a roof.
Most ins. tacks on about 35/sq. for steep like that. The numbers you guys are talking about are way off. Or at least they are for St. Louis.
Like I was saying what would you charge to slate or tile?? 64k... lol


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Omegaroofer said:


> Like I said I would like to see an ins. breakdown that shows that kind of reimbursement for a roof.
> Most ins. tacks on about 35/sq. for steep like that. The numbers you guys are talking about are way off. Or at least they are for St. Louis.
> Like I was saying what would you charge to slate or tile?? 64k... lol


I don't want to get off topic because I am very interested in keeping this homeowner from getting beat and burned by an under bidder.

I know plenty about STL.I worked for Reger Roofing and Siding and Gary Howard.I also know salesmen from Fredricks,Alan and Richards Roofing.


Not to brag but I have not given an estimate for about a year.All my jobs are contingencies.I know plenty about insurance work.


I worked in OKC last year and sold around 80 jobs in 60 days for $100,000.So yes I know plenty about insurance work.


You don't get these rates because you are O.k with killing yourself by doing $30,000 jobs for $11,000.All I do is insurance work.


I am a preferred contractor for 4 insurance companies from Springfield to Joplin.


There are so many roofing companies in the STL that have prices the same as I quoted.But just like everything you have guys who just work to stay working.All they can offer the homeowner is a cheap price.


Companies who charge these prices do so because of reputation,reliability,referrals,workmanship,salesmanship and the hard to find professionalism.


The reason you and all the others get the low ball offers from the insurers is because you settle.Insurance work is about negotiation.


There is so much more to insurance work than adjusters meetings and a 1/2 baked contingency form.


Do you think your the first guy that joined this forum and criticized MJW or ED???,,,,They know roofing they or I didn't wake up a couple day's ago and purchase a pouch,truck,some GL and a license?


It is plain as day that this homeowner is getting a knock off bid.Nobody completely legit would do his job for that amount.

Do you want to see what a $40,000+ job looks like?,,,I have a pic of a job we are very proud of.Its in my photo album.And that was over a year ago.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Well this is easy enough to type out as its really short


Remove existing shingles. Replace 30# felt as needed. Apply 30 year Dimensional shingles. Complete all flashings, vents, pipe boots as necessary. Haul away all debris. Aprox 32 square -2 layer tear off-12/12 Cost $10,650.00
Project cost $10,650,00


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

2 layers??!!!!!!???

Turn and run fast.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Mr Smiley said:


> Well this is easy enough to type out as its really short
> 
> 
> Remove existing shingles. Replace 30# felt as needed. Apply 30 year Dimensional shingles. Complete all flashings, vents, pipe boots as necessary. Haul away all debris. Aprox 32 square -2 layer tear off-12/12 Cost $10,650.00
> Project cost $10,650,00


Nothing right about it.Hey MJW how do you complete flashings????,,Wait they put in "As necessary" Hahahahahahaha,,,,

I would NOT hire them for the simple fact the CORRECT terminology is LIMITED LIFETIME !!!!

To the OP that is very vague.IMO its too vague.

Anything about the brand of shingle offered?

Anything about the size of the pipe flashings?

Anything about the brand of vents replaced?

Anything about the fasteners being used ? (size)

Anything about how many fasteners are required for your roof pitch?

Anything about extra charge for decking replacement if replaced ?

Anything about a valley underlayment?

Anything about the type of valley installed?

Anything about a workmanship warranty?

Does the estimate have a professional company logo?

Is your estimate a type from Office Max?

Any mention of lien waivers from suppliers?

Any mention of licensing?,,Insurance?,,,Bond?

Any offers of providing references from recent customers?

Any offer to show a portfolio containing workmanship photo's?

Any mention of safety protocol?

Any mention of the revised job site and fall restraint requirements by OSHA?

Anything about protecting your property from falling debris?

I think you see where all this is going.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Here it is


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Wayyyyy Too Vague and open to anyones interpretation.

Ed


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Just the estimate number alone speaks volumes.


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

Im guessing that just an estimate sheet?? That wouldn't make a good contract since there is nowhere to sign....  Let alone some of the reasons before mentioned. 
Get other bids and please post.. This will be close to the low bid and I bet the bidding doesn't go higher then 20k .. I would even say 16-17.. but there is some high bidders in here.. lol


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Omegaroofer said:


> Im guessing that just an estimate sheet?? That wouldn't make a good contract since there is nowhere to sign....  Let alone some of the reasons before mentioned.
> Get other bids and please post.. This will be close to the low bid and I bet the bidding doesn't go higher then 20k .. I would even say 16-17.. but there is some high bidders in here.. lol


I have called 6 other roofig companies. They are all supposed to be out before September. Ill post their quotes as well.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I am more than willing to bet my wifes dog that your next group will be considerably higher.

Remember just because you have a really high bid that won't guaranty a top notch job.

But then again neither will choosing the lowest in hopes of saving in the long run.

More times than not it costs you in the end.


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Remember just because you have a really high bid that won't guaranty a top notch job.


Hey that was my line..


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Really a worthless proposal and the contract may have other "loop-holes". The "as needed" is determined by the man that eventually gets on the job and it is up to him to determine what is needed and extra cost for anything else. It is a proposal written to trap an unknowing buyer that is already on the hook and the contractor can file a lien if he is not paid.

Dick


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

I had a company out on Thursday, and am waiting for that estimate to be mailed out and another company is coming out today. They have all said i do not need to be home for the inspection nor the estimate. 

But before work can be done I will sit down and go over the estimate and get a solid number. I dont want to nickeled and dimed to death. But i also want the work done right the first time too.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I have been asked by customers if they needed to be home for my inspection.

I have always (When possible) made the appointment for when they were home.Mandatory?,, No,,,,but I prefer putting a face behind the proposal.

An appointment when the (Possible) customer is present has many advantages.IMO

It gives the contractor the opportunity to explain any findings pertaining to roof issues.It also allows the contractor to show extensive roofing knowledge as well as professionalism.

IMO an appointment with the (Possible) customer present sets you apart from the competition.

The contractor can show much more than a proposal in the mailbox or inside the screen door.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

I called another roofer Lastnight and they will be out today and insisted that i be present before they would come, so thats looking better. They worked around be and will be at the house at 5 pm, after i get off work. So im already liking these guys much better then the last company.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Update


I had two roofers out lastnight. 

First roofer said He is going to have to get a satalight photo of my roof to take the measurements because its too steep. He was saying that the safest you can walk is a 8 or 9 roof and mine is double that. But the good news is what he was able to look at has Hail damage that is extensive enough that insurance may help out. I should have his quote Friday or Monday. He also said they will have to use harnesses and walking nail strips on the roof. 

The Second roofer came out and his ladder was too short at 22 ft. He was able to look at the valleys and said i am having 5 out of 6 nail pops per shingle. And i have little to no gravel left on those shingles. He is coming back on Friday afternoon or Saturday morning. 

I also have another roofer coming out today, and shouls get a quote from a previous roofer today as well......


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Omegaroofer said:


> Im guessing that just an estimate sheet?? That wouldn't make a good contract since there is nowhere to sign....  Let alone some of the reasons before mentioned.
> Get other bids and please post.. This will be close to the low bid and I bet the bidding doesn't go higher then 20k .. I would even say 16-17.. but there is some high bidders in here.. lol


I ran some real quick math through my spreadsheet. I would be $13-15k maybe more but I don't know the true details of the roof. 


I won't run an estimate if at least one home/property owner is not present. This is so I can meet with the customer, et to know who I am goign to be issuing alot of credit to and make sure I trust them, get a feeling for what they want and inform them of their options. I don't think it's a bad thing that the roofing company insists you are present. However mot companies use this as an excuse to hard sell, and that's not my style. 

LOL sat photo? I can measure just about any roof I have ever seen from the ground, simple geometry and I can figure out rafters, pitch etc... Ummm 12/12 is not double 8/12, double 8/12 is 16/12. LOL

harnesses are now pretty much an absolutel MUST on any shingle roof due to OSHA code changes. The toe boards are a must doe to common sense, that OSHA does not posess. Anyone on your roof should be roped off, regardless of company. 

"Oh your roof has hail damage...." Storm chaser "Please sign this agreement...." you lost your power of attorney.


Wait a 22' ladder isn't tall enough? This is a tall sucker, add $1k to my estimated price above.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Here is a picture from the back of the house. Tonight I'll see if I can get one of the valley.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Mr Smiley said:


> Update
> 
> 
> I had two roofers out lastnight.
> ...


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Wow so many typos. I hadn't had my morning coffee yet. LOL


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

XXX Roofing & Insulation Systems Inc. 

Columbus, IN 47202-1683 


DATE ESTIMATE # 
08/10/2011 3574 
EXP. DATE 

ADDRESS 
Steven 
St.
Columbus, IN 47201 
Description Amount 

• ROOF TYPE: CertainTeed Landmark Dimensional Shingles. CertainTeed Shadow Ridge accessory will be 
installed along with CertainTeed Swift Start for upgraded 110 MPH Wind Warranty. 

• ROOF AREA: Entire Roof of Home. 

• SPECIFICATIONS: Remove and dispose of two layers of asphalt shingles. 

• Install new CT WINTERGUARD Ice and Water Shield in valleys. 

• Install new ROOFERS SELECT underlayment. 

• Install new Drip Edge. 

• Install new pipe boot flashing. 
Install new box vents. 

• Chimney Flashing: Remove flashing and install ice and water shield along sidewall, then install new step 
flashing, cut ringlet in mortar joint and counter flash, then install caulking. 

• WARRANTY: Lifetime Manufacturer's Warranty on material and a 10 Sure Start Protection Warranty. 

• Ground will be picked up daily of debris and a magnet will be used to pick up and metal debris. 

• TOTAL LUMP SUM: All labor, material, and disposal costs included. 

• ** Discovery of any rotten decking will be replaced at the rate of $1.75 per square feet of 7/16 OSB. This 
includes labor, material, and removal cost. Additional framing that maybe needed to correct deficiency will be 
billed at a time and material basis. 

• SURE-START PLUS EXTENDED WARRANTY: 5-Star Please add $1100.00 Please 
Initial____________________ Includes installing CT WINTERGUARD Around perimeter. 
Not sure what this warranty is, but it sure is alot!

• Overhead Care Club Please Initial_____________________ 

• CCI Will take reasonable measures to protect windows, siding, landscaping, ect. (to the best of our abilities). 
This includes covering landscaping and placing OSB sheets on windows and siding. CCI will not be held 
responsible for any pre-existing damages. 

• Notice: Our price stated in this contract proposal is based upon current material prices. Because of raw material 
price volatility, including the price of oil, our materials suppliers are unable to provide us with price protection 
for the materials included in this proposal. Accordingly, should our material prices increase during the term of 
this proposal, and during the time of performance of work contemplated by this proposal, our price for 
performance of the work contemplated by this proposal shall be increased by such direct material cost increases. 
11,021.000.00 
50% Down/50% Complete. Payment is due upon completion of work. In theTOTAL $11,021.00
event it becomes necessary to enforce the terms of this agreement,or recover
sums due,customer agrees to pay reasonable attorney fees, court cost,
collection cost, plus interest at 12% per month or at highest rate allowed by law. 

We now accept MasterCard and Visa. 

Accepted By: Accepted Date: 


I Guess your wife gets to keep her dog........ This quote came through an E-Mail and did have a letter head that was not from Wal-Mart. This is much better then the last one i recieved :thumbup: Still waiting on the Satalight guy and the short ladder guy. 


Yes I was told that the Granuals not gravel are all but gone in the valleys. I also have no ice dam or any protection whatsoever at the current moment. I do have mails that are popping back out (Nail Pop?) You can see the round spots on the shingles.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Is your roof 32 square? I would go broke in your area. Hard to believe. Work must be scarce. That is nuts.

Mail pops out? Maybe a new mailbox too.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Is your roof 32 square? I would go broke in your area. Hard to believe. Work must be scarce. That is nuts.
> 
> Mail pops out? Maybe a new mailbox too.


 
Darn fat fingers!!! Nail pops.......


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

The sure start 5 star warranty means the manufacturer will stand behind the roof and honor the workmanship of the certified roofer. I mark this into all my shingle jobs as of last year. It's the difference between a 5 year guarantee and a 25 year guarantee. Think of it as an insurance policy.

Ice sheild in valleys only? No gutter lines? what abotu preflashing at chimneys, skylights, pipes walls etc? Any area to receive flashing we pre-flash with ice shield. Ahhh I read on, they are wrapping the chimney with ice shield, but what about the pipes and side walls? Seriously you need ice shield at the gutter lines, it's code in most areas.

FYI a sheet of ISB is 32 square feet, nobody replaces osb or plywood by the sq ft, they will be replacing full sheets or half sheets. Your roof probably isn't even OSB but is 1x boards based on the age it appears. get a price for 1x boards written into the proposal.

What is overhead care club?

$11k wow man, no wonder I don't get as many shingle jobs anymore as I used to in 2007. People are working for beer and cheese burgers.



Here are some things to consider. Yoru roof is a 2 day job. Will they tear it all off the first day and roof the 2nd day or will they tear off half and roof half then do the same the next day? Personally we only tear off as much as we can put back the same day. Some guys will tear off and felt it in (called a dry in), but a dry in makes me nervous and crazy and has a high probability of leakage.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

It's called cheap illegal labor fellas. They are working on volume. Even the cut throats up here would charge more than that.

To be honest, we would have to be completely out of work to even bid the house in that pic. 

Insurance work is probably close to bottom of the barrel prices nowadays and even they would pay 5-10K more than that.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

No doubt MJW and Grumpy, its amazing that guys are giving the trade away.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Looks easy. 2-3 day job. 4500 materials. 2500 labor. 4k profit.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Looks easy. 2-3 day job. 4500 materials. 2500 labor. 4k profit.


Bam, how much you paying your guys? $2,500 labor?! Ok let's do the math.

2,500 / 2 = $1,250 per day

1,250 / 8 = $250 per man per day for a 5 man crew ? Note this $250 includes burdens. Yes?

250 / 8 hours = $31.25 per hour. 



$31.25 per hour. Let's reverse engineer that. I don't know what WC is in WI. here is 42%, but I think WI is 25%. Please confirm. I am basing this math on 25%.

So we have 25% WC + 9% GL + 18% FICA, FIDA, SUDA, + 10% UI. That's 62% labor burden. 

So let's reverse that 31.25. Your paying your guys on average $19 an hour? 

This doesn't even take into account over time. i don't know a roofing crew that doesn't work 12 hour days and 14-16 hours when needed. I don't even want to think what overtime will do to my formula. I dare speculate that $19 may drop to $15. Are you really paying your guys $15 an hour?



...and if this job goes into 3 days OMFG! OMFG! WHat are you thinking Bam? No wonder you're so busy. Has your insurance company audited you yet and has your acountant beat you over the head witha stick yet? If not I bet both will be coming soon. Either that or you know something about running a business that I do not and if so I bow to the greater. Please teach me. 



I'm curious Bam, can you describe "profit" and all that it includes? I am assuming you meant "overhead" and profit. I can't put my finger on it but something is wrong with yours or mine math. D you check monthly profit and loss reports fo ryour corporation and do you look at each and every job P&L report? 


I'm not saying you shoudl raise your prices because that would be collusion.... but.... I said the job would be $15k by me and nobody disagreed. 


My suggestion, take it for what it's worth but it may be an eye opener, ask each and every estimate you write to see the competitors proposal. I'd be suprised if you wern't the cheapest 7 out of 10 times that they actually show. I for one ask each and ever customer who hires us for the competitors proposal. I call them scalps and have hundreds I have accumulated throughout the years. I can tell you over the last 2 years the only time I have been the cheapest is when I have made a mistake. I am often but not always the highest bidder. EXPERTISE COSTS MONEY. Don't undervalue your expertise.


Oh one last thing abotu scalps. I bought my house about 3 years ago. When I did I invited every roofer to the area to give me an estimate. I was shocked at the prices. You may be too. Let's just say at the time I wasn't as high priced as I thought I was. Some of the guys charged me then 3 years ago what I am charging now. $10k for a 25 square ranch 1 layer rip 3 years ago. All I am saying is making money is not illegal.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Bam, how much you paying your guys? $2,500 labor?! Ok let's do the math.
> 
> 2,500 / 2 = $1,250 per day
> 
> ...


I have thought about that but majority of them know me already. I was meeting with a customer when another roofer pulled up in the driveway. I walked out and he said "Hi, Im ____ you must be ____" I was surprised, I have never met the guy and didn't know who he was at all. Well, he undercut me by $1800 and got the job.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Well you can do the math either way 4, 5 or 10. The point I was trying to make is I can't figure how you'd be so cheap. Then again you corrected yourself, and I agree it doesn't look like a 30 square job. 


I aspire to be able to offer health insurance, paid vacations and 401k. Even at $15k that can't be done. The longer I am in this trade the more pathetic I think it is and the sicker it makes me.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Well you can do the math either way 4, 5 or 10. The point I was trying to make is I can't figure how you'd be so cheap. Then again you corrected yourself, and I agree it doesn't look like a 30 square job.
> 
> I aspire to be able to offer health insurance, paid vacations and 401k. Even at $15k that can't be done. The longer I am in this trade the more pathetic I think it is and the sicker it makes me.


Grumpy, I was never saying that I would be at that price. I could see how guys could do it for that price.


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

That was my point as well.. The homeowner was concerned whether or not the initial bid was legitimate. I thought it was.. That means that I could see someone making money and paying the ins. and quality materials to do that job for that amount.. By the math which you so eloquently wrote down Grumpy you could peel off 1k off his profit to his labor and still make a decent bit of money to get that job done..


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

The original description of the job "first estimate" and the one picture of the job posted by the home owner don't match up.

Grumpy is seeing oranges and the guy/gal who inspected the job in real time saw apples.

A 32 square, 2 layer 12/12 tear off for less then 15k, not around here.
A 22 square, 2 layer partial 12/12 and partial 4/12 for less then 15k, sure.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Ready for this......


*Scope of work for roof**$8,020.58. *Remove existing roof (2 Layers) and dispose of. Install CertainTeed Landmark Dimensional shingle(+/- 32 sq.). Install 15lb felt. 236' of drip edge. cover 2 existing box vent holes. Install 1 new pipe boots. Install Ice and Water Shield around all chimneys and valleys. *Install 1 new power vent**$200.00. *Does not include any allowance for damaged decking. Includes CertainTeed Limited Lifetime WarrantyIncludes 5 yr. workmanship warranty. Quote valid for 14 days. *Total**$8,220.58 *Accepted by:________________________________________Date:____________Salesperson:  8/17/11*Thank you for your business*


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

After looking I found i do not have any good venting for the attic. I have 2 dormer vents and requested a way to vent the attic. All i have to do for that is to provide power for the vent they will not run new electric.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Includes CertainTeed Limited Lifetime Warranty


Im not familiar with this lifetime warranty. What is this? I have heard of a 20 and 30 year warranty but never a lifetime warranty.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I will not be checking this post anymore. This makes me furious and I am about to puke. What a mess. For once I am speechless.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I signed a 12sq 2lyr for $9600. Now thats contracting. Oh,,and that was a 10/12.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I will not be checking this post anymore. This makes me furious and I am about to puke. What a mess. For once I am speechless.


 
That is your choice. I cant stop you. Im not posting false estimates to get reactions. I was asked to post estimates as i get them. Im not calling hole in the wall companies. As i see a sign in a yard of a home that has had work done, a jot the number down. 

I ask a few guys at work what they know since they have been in this area much longer then i have. Ive not called a few companies because of information i have gathered. 

I am a first time homeowner. Ive always lived in an apartment andnever had to worry about maintenance. I have come looking for advice and direction, all so i can make a better judgement and all in the hopes of not getting  over. 

I dont know jack about roofing. I know enough to know its something i dont want to tackle on my own and i have chosen to hire it out.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I signed a 12sq 2lyr for $9600. Now thats contracting. Oh,,and that was a 10/12.


I never said your over priced or under priced or right on price. I never knew what a good price was for a roof. Heck I thought id get estimats for $4K. Never crossed my mind that they would be 8-11K Or even as high as 30K as was suggested here. Im out to get the work done and done right the first time. I am willing to pay the extra money for that.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I tried to edit my post before you had time to reply but my phone passed away at a very young age.

My reply about fury and regurgitation was in no way pointed towards you.

My frustration is toward the boneheads who basically do work to keep rent,that weekly car payment at one of those pay by the week car lots,or the local U-Can Rent,,,god knows if they missed 1 payment they would clear the house out of furniture and appliances.

I feel that with the responsibility and professionalism along with commitment to quality and a reputation should come at a price.

The day I do 32sq 2 lyr,steep for $11,000.00 then that is the day I will hang up my guns.If that happens then the profitability of the trade is gone and all is lost.

Once again it was not directed toward you.I think its a great idea to post these sub contractor prices.


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

Roofmaster I would say in my opinion you are high in your bidding .. I am guessing you may be a bigger company with a lot of overhead... Thats just the way it works.. Guys with smaller companies can afford to do jobs cheaper then the bigger one's. That's just the law of the jungle.. 
I am not sure you would be that competitive in St. Louis.. The names you had mentioned before I am sure are not bidding walk-on 1-layers for 350/sq. Maybe 300/sq. would be high but possibly "sold".. It says nothing about them doing a better job or even better materials.. Just that they "sell" it.. I work for a national company that sell 32sq. recovers for 13k.. I think that's obscene.. Where I would tear off and recover for 9k.. 
But truth be told if I honestly thought I could get 350/sq. for a walk-on tear off recover then I would..  You are very inspiring..  

As far as Mr. Smiley I think you are doing the right thing by all the research and stuff you are putting into it, great job.. I think you are learning that bids can fluctuate greatly. You will pay more for larger companies, but you will be left with the feeling that when they say 10-year workmanship warranty, they may be around to honor that.. 
I am going to be honest I would have been around 11 or 12k on that roof and we would have done just as good or better then anyone else. Of course that roof looks more like 27sq. to me. I think it is odd that these estimates tell how many squares.. I wonder if that has more to do with you getting over inflated bids by giving their estimations..


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

No damnit Omega, NO! Damnit NO! Gah how fuggin ridiculious! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! He bids it RIGHT!

Can you offer your installers paid vacations?

Can you offer your installers health care?

Can you offer your installers sick days? 

Can you offer your installers 401k or retirement?


No?


Do you think you might be too cheap?!?!?!?!?

Can you name another industry besides the trades that doesn't have paid vacation, doesn't have sick days, doesn't have meidcal leave, doesn't have health insurance and doesn't have retirement plans?





No god damnit this whole fuggin trade is ass backwards. Can you name another industry besides the trades that doesn't have paid vacation, doesn't have sick days, doesn't have meidcal leave, doesn't have health insurance and doesn't have retirement plans? Can you name one industry other than the trades without these benefits? Do you think we are getting what we deserve or do you think we are fuggin monkeys working for peanuts? I think we are all monkeys working for peanuts giving out expertise away for free. I think we suffer bcause we want to suffer and I think we should never accuse anyone of having too high overhead if we can't offer the aforementioned benefits. 


The problem is NOT the customer. The problem is the roofer. We do it to ourselves!

Guys with smaller companies can afford to do it cheaper but why the **** would you want to do it cheaper? If youc an get $10k for a job why the **** would you price the job at $6k knowing you can get $10k? WHY?! So you can suffer? So your family can suffer? So your employees can suffer? How about pricing the benefits into the job? Afraid to lose the job? When did you have it?


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Think I am frustrated?

I am...


Man your post set me off big time. WTF kind of thinking is that? WTF?! 


WTF


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

You think he's doing the right thing getting 7 bids?



What the mother ****?


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

LOL Yeah sorry Grumpy.. I am right along with you man.. I saw your post where you talked about health ins. for your employees on another thread I think.. Hey I would love to do all that stuff to.. I am merely going off what I know and how roofs are bid these days. I know I wouldn't get jobs at 300/sq... One of my original responses was to say I haven't seen ins. compensate as much as the numbers roofmaster posted. 
You know, I think as I, that residential shingle roofing has never been at rates that allow for the benefits you talk about.. Now when I started roofing in 94 I was paid 7/hr. and this was from one of the top companies around here. We also had a union flat roofing and sheet metal shop. So I joined roofing with that conundrum of why do we make so much less with less benefits.. 
I personally know exactly where other companies are at in their bidding.. I do bids for several companies and I hear all the time how much the companies are against them. When I bid for myself I always tend to think that I am roughly in the middle.. I mean I could give you so many examples of roofs I've done that are steep where my bid was a couple thousand dollars more than others..
Now let my preface the direction of this thread, the homeowner wanted to know if it was a reasonable bid. I said it was, in the current roof market. Roofmaster responded by saying that he would bid it at 800-1000 per square.. My response was that was way to high and extremely unreasonable.. I mean feeding my family IS my goal and thats why I dont bid as high as we would all like.. We have to compete, and now days even the top bidders aren't getting anything, people in this economy are going for the low bid, not even the middle anymore.. let alone high bids..


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## Omegaroofer (Aug 4, 2011)

Yeah I can name another trade with the same problems.. Siding, windows, concrete, carpet etc etc. .. Almost any re-hab type trade.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

I think in general most roofing contractors are way way too cheap and should be 5% less than the union companies. There are many reasons why I think 5% is the magic number but let that resonate and ferment for awhile. 

I did a bid once where it was 3 bidders on a 200 square epdm. Me a union company and a scab hack scum bag moron whom I will punch in the face if I ever get a chance. I forget exact numbers. I think the union company was like $200k and I was $150 and the scum was $99. My materials were about $99. The scum got the job. The customer said to me he was shocked I was charging so much and wasn't union. I promise I wasn't goign to get "rich" on that job. I also promise the scum didn't get rich either. I really thought I priced that job to get it. I was way too cheap. I actually forget my price and the unon price but I can't forget the 99 price. 


The point being basicaly the point I made earlier.  We as an industry need to elevate ourselves. We are only hurting ourselves competing against ourselves. Omega could you sell a job above $300? Yes if everyone were charging above $300, for sure. I'll tell you if a customer gets 4 bids I'll either be the highest or 2nd highest depending on who he calls. I consistently get above $300 on the average shingle reisdential job, and will tell you there are guys out there doing it for $225. Am I right, am I wrong? I think I am too cheap since I can't provide the benefits I psoke of earlier. If I were to provide those benefits, I would be in the $400 range. Now that's pricey and I suspect I would be the highest on every every job. 

I've rant he math with mya ccountant to know approximately where I would need to be to offer the incentives and benefits. I am a coward and can't do it. Thus I guess I am a hypocrite for criticising you also. Sorry.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Whoever came up with charging according to overhead dd so to justify underbidding.IMO


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

deleted...


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> deleted...


Grumpy, I don't think so. there would be an "Edited By" box, naming who did the editing if in fact that were done.

I can't explain what portions of your posts you think are missing, but there is no editing history in the Administration Panel.

Ed


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Whoever came up with charging according to overhead dd so to justify underbidding.IMO


Charging according to overhead isn't the worst thing in the world. One must know their overhead in order to not undercharge. However where it becomes a problem is when one company purposely cuts overhead to achieve a lower price. Yes we all need to cut fat from time to time, but cutting muscle is a bad thing. It's a slippery slope. 

I'm not for excessive spending. Don't misunderstand, that got me in alot of hot water early on when I started my company. BUT cutting legitimate expenses from your budget can cause more harm than good... and it has. The whole industry nationwide has suffered for it. It's hard really hard to make an HONEST living working in the trades anymore. For the risks we take, the rewards should be more. But the industry isover-run with people whom shouldn't be the captaion of a ship; or in other words shouldn't be running a business in the first place.

I know a guy who does alot of sub work. When you ask him how much he'd charge he asks what you're offering. One may think he's a shrewd business man unwilling to make the first offer in fear that he may undercut himself. But when you get to know the guy you will understand he's a great roofer but is cluless what running his business really costs him. I called him up because a friend of friend was coming to town to do a large job and is looking for roofers for a few weeks. I am booked solid so couldn't commit my guys for 2-3 weeks. He asked how much per square. I said the guy is offering hourly. He said why not by the square. I said who cares you'll make more by the hour. He wasn't interested because he couldn't understand the simple basics... YOU NEVER LOSE WHEN CHARGING BY THE HOUR.

I mean that's just one example. I could go on and on and on. I've made my share of mistakes, but I try to not repeat them. 

So one may be thinking if I am so high and mighty why don't I charge more to offer the benefits I speak of? Well I have the same fear as everyone else. I'm afraid of not making the sale, but I am constantly pushign the envelope forward forward, until it falls off. I'd have to have 3 or 4 salesmen to keep 1 crew busy if I were to charge what I really think it's worth... and I wouldn't be able to keep those salesmen long with a 10% closing rate. It's a big compound problem that I think no one man can fix. It's going to take a whole industry.

Hell the things I am saying can be borderline collusionary. I really and walking a tight rope as I tread upon this campaign to fix the industry.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Grumpy, I don't think so. there would be an "Edited By" box, naming who did the editing if in fact that were done.
> 
> I can't explain what portions of your posts you think are missing, but there is no editing history in the Administration Panel.
> 
> Ed


Ed, i deleted my post because I found my ranting which I thought was deleted but wasn't deleted. SO I removed the post asking why they were deleted. However I don't have tghe option to delete a post so I edited the post and just put the word deleted in the text box.


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

If it makes anyone feel better, I lost a 3 layer 12/12 - 20 square job to a guy who bid 6k even. Supposably with insurance and all that.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> If it makes anyone feel better, I lost a 3 layer 12/12 - 20 square job to a guy who bid 6k even. Supposably with insurance and all that.


$300 per sq. unreal.I could not even try or want to compete with that junk.

I know that you have to be strapped up on any pitch now but,,,$300 per sq for a 12/12 means walk boards/jacks,major labor for double handling.The extra precautions for the ground.

Extreme safety,walk boards,double handling,the steep factor.,.,$300 per sq. is hardly worth it.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Not to mention the possibility of resheathing. 2-3 layers in most areas usually means old roof boards and usually some leaks somewhere. Usually the hack that put the 2nd or 3rd layer on missed a few things and there are some leaks, creating at least a few spots to be replaced.

To the OP, did any one of those contractors even mention looking in the attic to see the roof boards?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

MJW said:


> *Not to mention the possibility of resheathing. 2-3 layers in most areas usually means old roof boards and usually some leaks somewhere. *
> 
> To the OP, did any one of those contractors even mention looking in the attic to see the roof boards?


 
MJW,,,,I have been trying to figure out how any real profit could be had with the OP's and Bamms situations.

I looked at it with an honest view.The only way for profit IMO is a very small work force.

Another honest way could be a massive amount of materials purchased at a ridiculous low price.

Now the dishonest thought.

No insurance,illegals,hidden charges,intentional structural damage resulting in extra charge.Charging a crazy amount for per sheet and per ft. for deck replacement.$9-$10 per ft.or $80-$100 per sheet.

Within my proposals it clearly states charges for per ft. and per sheet charge for deck replacement.(Most do) I have seen other contractors proposals that had nothing covering deck replacement. 

The picture is one I took of another contractors sign in Joplin.Either the customer is controlled by the contractor or the contractor is controlled by the customer.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Charging according to overhead isn't the worst thing in the world. One must know their overhead in order to not undercharge. However where it becomes a problem is when one company purposely cuts overhead to achieve a lower price. Yes we all need to cut fat from time to time, but cutting muscle is a bad thing. It's a slippery slope.
> 
> I'm not for excessive spending. Don't misunderstand, that got me in alot of hot water early on when I started my company. BUT cutting legitimate expenses from your budget can cause more harm than good... and it has. The whole industry nationwide has suffered for it. It's hard really hard to make an HONEST living working in the trades anymore. For the risks we take, the rewards should be more. But the industry isover-run with people whom shouldn't be the captaion of a ship; or in other words shouldn't be running a business in the first place.
> 
> ...


Not trying to argue your ranting, most of what you have to say makes perfect sense, but, you can lose by the hour in comparison to piece pay.

I nailed 12 square on an 8/12 last Sunday at $55.00 per square = $660.00
How many times have you paid an hourly worker over 600 in one 7 hour day.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Roofmaster417 said:


> MJW,,,,I have been trying to figure out how any real profit could be had with the OP's and Bamms situations.
> 
> I looked at it with an honest view.The only way for profit IMO is a very small work force.
> 
> ...


I didn't notice anyone mention.
1. Cost of Living difference between regions.
(direct affect on pricing, insurance cost, etc.)
2. Contractor or Business owner.
(all contractors say they own/run a company, very few actually do)


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

*SLY said;*
I didn't notice anyone mention.
1. Cost of Living difference between regions.
(direct affect on pricing, insurance cost, etc.)
2. Contractor or Business owner.
(all contractors say they own/run a company, very few actually do) 

RM417;
 Very true Sly.


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## Canucker (May 5, 2011)

IMHO, it's the education of the consumer that helps keep the profitability of trades. If more people knew what goes into a proper roof job or any job for that matter, they would ask more questions of the low bidders. I think if you have the knowledge, you should show it off, go through the details with the customer, the little things that make or break any job. If they aren't just looking for the lowest price, they'll probably pepper the next guy/girl with questions about why his/her bid is so low.It would be harder to hide something then. For example, I'm getting my boiler re-piped so i can someday finish the basement. Of the 3 companies i talked to, 2 asked what the room was going to be used for and only 1 guy asked how the unfinished basement will be insulated. My research on the subject tells me he's the only one who will probably do a heat loss calculation and size the proper emitters. Plus, he was a no B.S. guy, didn't try to sell me a new boiler and gave me good reasons why I didn't need one.So far, everyone else has said I need a new one. I had ideas about how i wanted the piping done and he explained why it wouldn't work very well(it would have been a balancing nightmare)etc, etc. Personally, I like that from a contractor.
The unfortunate part is that this education takes time and the low bidders make it extremely difficult to survive while this education takes place, but it has to be done.


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## Mr Smiley (Aug 3, 2011)

MJW said:


> Not to mention the possibility of resheathing. 2-3 layers in most areas usually means old roof boards and usually some leaks somewhere. Usually the hack that put the 2nd or 3rd layer on missed a few things and there are some leaks, creating at least a few spots to be replaced.
> 
> To the OP, did any one of those contractors even mention looking in the attic to see the roof boards?


No one has even mentioned asking to go into the attic. I know we do not have plywood as a decking. I have 1x6's. The last guy sent me an email saying they will charge $30 per sheet of 4'x8' of OSB or $3 per Linear foot of 1x6.


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