# New Deck - Spray vs Roll / Brush Stain



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Spraying is faster that's why he wants to do it tat way.
It does not apply enough to do it's job in my option.
Plus there's having to deal with the over spray.
Cabots has held up good for me. Comes in the top three in consumers digest test.


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## eharri3 (Jul 31, 2013)

I like the roll guy more than the spray guy. Stains work by actually being absorbed into the pores in the wood rather than just sitting on top of it. Rolling would accomplish this better than spraying. Brushing would accomplish it even better than just rolling, but maybe only minimally so. The guy who sprays can do it in less time, which is why he is charging you less. But I would take him off the list because his application method may not provide optimal conditions for it to adhere. The usable life of a stain once applied is greatly over estimated for marketing purposes by manufacturers. In real life under heavy foot traffic, animal claws, dragging furniture back and fourth, and other abuse, you are lucky to get 12 months out of the low end stuff and 18-24 months out of the high end stuff. With the type of foot traffic and abuse decks typically undergo, good luck finding anybody who will warranty his work for the number of years you see on the can. 

Roofers don't warranty their labor for the number of years the shingles are rated for either.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

joecaption said:


> Spraying is faster that's why he wants to do it tat way.
> It does not apply enough to do it's job in my option.
> Plus there's having to deal with the over spray.
> Cabots has held up good for me. Comes in the top three in consumers digest test.


This depends I can use a big enough tip that would flood the deck.
If the guy is an experienced sprayer this is a non issue.
The same problems can occur using too small nap on the roller and getting splatter from the roller. I have used the best of both worlds use a pump up sprayer then back roll.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Spraying stain on a deck Can be the best method. Spraying allows you better control over the amount if material applied, unfortunately some painters use the fact to stretch materials thus putting a thinner than ideal coat on. But it can just as easily go the other way, a pro spray person can get a thicker coat on than by brushing alone. 

The main thing with spraying ext wood decks is that they Must be back brushed/rolled for good results. If the spray guy is not planning on back brushing to push the stain into the grain-no way, bad idea. 

Cabbot and CWF are both fine products if applied and maintained properly.


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## Danahy (Feb 23, 2014)

A wide stain brush attached to a paint pole does wonders for your back/knees when back brushing.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

How long before I have to re-apply with CWF? 

He told me 4 years (based on manufacturer) but his warranty is only for one which has me wondering if that's really the case.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

There are some misconceptions about spraying. An airless sprayer can deliver as much or as little product that the person using it wants to apply. An experienced spray person can limit and control the over spray, along with masking off as needed. When applying stain it needs to be back brushed or rolled into the substrate. Have you asked the guy that proposed to spray if he will be back brushing? 
I also would not choose a contractor just on price along, get references, view photos and/or video of past work, make sure contractor has proper insurance and is licensed in your area if he needs to be.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

He said no back brushing - just apply via spray and he will be done in a couple hours.

The brush / roll guy that uses Cabot was only $100 more expensive.

The spray guy said he hates Cabot but the roll guy said he loves Cabot. Spray guy prefers Behr or Flood CWF.

Both are licensed and insured. Both appear to have done nice previous jobs by pictures. The roll / brush guy has a lot more years experience it seems.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Spraying alone is the worst technique.

When you paint (or stain), you need to accomplish 3 different things:
1. get paint from the bucket to the surface
2. work the paint into the surface
3. apply the appropriate finish stroke

You can sometimes achieve all 3 at once. For example, rolling paint on your walls. Load up your roller and roll it on the wall with a little pressure - that does all 3 things.

However often you do it in 2 or 3 different steps. For example, putting polyurethane finish on a table. You have very little working in to do - just the act of getting the polyurethane onto the table is enough to work it in. The table is usually so smooth that gravity does it for you. But you have to take your time going over it perfectly smoothly with your brush to get a flawless smooth finish.

On a deck, there are more nooks and crannies that the stain has to work into. So brushing, or at a minimum rolling, is best. Simply spraying gets the stain onto the surface a whole lot more efficiently that brushing (step 1), but then there is nothing to physically work it into the surface. With stain on a deck, step 3 is much less important than putting on polyurethane, and step 2 is far more important.

You cannot go by pictures for the spray results. You can only see what it is failing to do with a magnifying glass or microscope, not in a photo. It will probably not last as long as a good brushing though.

I like oil based Cabot quite a lot.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

As well as being standard practice, back brushing/rolling is recommended in the application instructions for CWF UV. 

Spray only is a terrible idea for most deck stain applications. I have seen the results of this several times and its never been good. 

http://www.flood.com/pdf/app-instructions-02.pdf


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for the responses - I'm not looking to pick the "lowest bidder". I don't mind spending a little more if I like the contractor better and / or his techniques. I want to get the job done right even if that means spending a little more money.

After reading, i'm definitely leaning towards the second one - everything sounds better - technique and choice of recommended stain. He also had more experience.

I have another estimate coming on Monday so we will see what that brings and I'll make a final decision then. Appreciate all the helpful advice so far!


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

adgjqetuo said:


> How long before I have to re-apply with CWF?
> 
> He told me 4 years (based on manufacturer) but his warranty is only for one which has me wondering if that's really the case.


I use a lot of CWF. It's about as good as it gets at that price point. Sometimes you can get it for as little as $15 a gallon with a coupon, sale, rebate, etc. On vertical surfaces you can usually get 4 years out of it, but, on horizontal surfaces, don't count on much more that 2, maybe 3 years. The horizontals just take an absolute beating from the elements. Nothing lasts 4 or 5 years on decks, well, not too many products with a reasonable price tag.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> The horizontals just take an absolute beating from the elements. Nothing lasts 4 or 5 years on decks, well, not too many products with a reasonable price tag.


Having said that, it's why you should use a penetrative product, rather than a film forming one. It's so easy to simply clean and then reapply a penetrative product every 2 or 3 years, without any scraping or stripping.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Having said that, it's why you should use a penetrative product, rather than a film forming one. It's so easy to simply clean and then reapply a penetrative product every 2 or 3 years, without any scraping or stripping.



That's very true. However, very few stains actually penetrate all the way, so after several maintenance applications, perhaps every 10 years, a deck (even one done with penetrating stains) will need to be stripped to maintain a nice look. The small amount of solids in these stains eventually build up and create a film. 

Toners don't seem to need to be stripped as frequently providing they are not over applied. And I have been reading about products like TWP that supposedly never need to be stripped, though I haven't tried them yet. 

Small story on over application. I took over a maintenance contract on some condo buildings. The decks were fairly new and had only been stained once. 

The previous painter had stained them with two coats of Olympic toner. They looked good at first, with a nice shine to them. The thing is, stains/toners are not meant to be applied like that. After the first coat was dry, the second coat was unable to penetrate and dried on the surface. I was told by tenants that the first stain job took weeks to dry completely. 

So after a year or so, this nice shiny look was getting all scratched up by wear. Not being designed to perform as a film, the toner did not hold up well at all. The only solution then was to strip and start over. A maintenance coat would have been futile since it would not have penetrated. 

Note: many stains like the CWF are applied in two coats. But it's supposed to be two coats "wet on wet". In other words, the second coat is applied before the first is dry so it can still penetrate. Once the first coat or coats dries, the wood will accept no more stain. Putting additional coats on at this point might look good for while, but will more than likely fail prematurely.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

You use the term "toner" and I don't know if there's a technical difference between "stain" and "toner". There are different "levels" of stain, where they have different amounts of solids in them. Such as "clear", "transparent", "translucent", "semi-transparent", "semi-solid", "solid". The way I learned it was that the more solids it has in it, the less penetrative it would be, but the more UV resistant it would be. I think having some tone to it reduces UV rays to an extent, but allows maintenance coats. You seem to be saying that any solids will eventually build up, which makes sense. I'm not sure where "toner" fits in that scale.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

Sorry to keep this on-going, but I got a third estimate.

This guy said he would use Cabot and do the entire deck by brush - which I really liked.

But this next part concerned me after reading your responses so I'm hoping for some insight.

He told me that he would do 2 coats of stain on the entire deck. Then on the hand rails (top cap) only he said he would do a third coat using transparent to "make it shine" and have a polished finish.

From sand to finish - approx 4-5 days with 2 guys.

Is this an Ok practice?

He also said it will last 4-5 years and he would guarantee it for 3. But he was foreign so it was hard to fully understand him and I'm not 100% sure he understood me when I asked how long he would warranty it for.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

adgjqetuo said:


> Sorry to keep this on-going, but I got a third estimate.
> 
> This guy said he would use Cabot and do the entire deck by brush - which I really liked.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of different kinds of Cabbot stain, what specifically are we talking about?

I can't think of any Cabbot deck products specified by the manufacturer to be applied in the manner you described. Of course that doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

I wanted to go with a semi-transparent / toner.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

adgjqetuo said:


> I wanted to go with a semi-transparent / toner.



Both the Cabbot Semi transparent stain and the Cabbot Australian Timber Oil (toner) clearly state that only one coat should be applied. 

http://www.valsparpaint.com/system/galleries/download/cabot/Australian_Timber_oil_wood_finish.pdf

http://www.valsparpaint.com/system/galleries/download/cabot/WOOD_TONED_DECK_x_SIDING_STAIN_3000.pdf

People do it and it looks great for a while, but the fact is these products are Not designed to perform as a high build coating. And using them as such almost always (IME) ends in premature failure. It may even look good for several years, if the traffic is light. 

There are deck products designed to perform like that such as Sikkens Dek. But they are very expensive and most are required to be applied to all sides of the deck boards before they are put together.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

adgjqetuo said:


> Sorry to keep this on-going, but I got a third estimate.
> 
> This guy said he would use Cabot and do the entire deck by brush - which I really liked.
> 
> ...


Most deck stains are only a one coat application. Applying multiply coats will usually leed to failure of the stain. Most deck stains will only last about two years on the walking surface before applying a maintenance coat.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> You use the term "toner" and I don't know if there's a technical difference between "stain" and "toner". There are different "levels" of stain, where they have different amounts of solids in them. Such as "clear", "transparent", "translucent", "semi-transparent", "semi-solid", "solid". The way I learned it was that the more solids it has in it, the less penetrative it would be, but the more UV resistant it would be. I think having some tone to it reduces UV rays to an extent, but allows maintenance coats. You seem to be saying that any solids will eventually build up, which makes sense. I'm not sure where "toner" fits in that scale.



Idk either Jeff if there is really a difference. Cabbot puts toner at the bottom of the list of transparencies. I tried to lure Ric into this discussion last time, thought he might could explain. 

There does seem to be a difference comparing the products in the field. They separate... differently. It seems like with semi trans it's the pigment that settles out of it, and with toner it seems to be some other solid. 

So when you open a can of semi trans after its been sitting a while, the color is not homogenous, its layered through the container with the darker on top usually. Where as toner settles in the bottom of the container and it remains more homogeneous in color.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for the help and info. Based on information here, I think I'm leaning toward the second guy - even though he rolls the floor.

He seems to have provided the most accurate information that is similar to what people here recommend.

My only issue is picking a color tone - I want a natural wood color, but not the yellow PT look - more of a true cedar type color. Anyone have pictures of decks with a similar Cabot Stain applied? Samples are hard to envision.

Maybe something similar to the below.


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## liljohnny (Jun 17, 2013)

I would research the Cabot and Flood products a little more. Most things i've read about both of these product is not good. hands down the best product available to Americans is TWP 100. Unfortunately, this product is not available in Canada os I went with a product called Sansin DEK which I can report after 2 years is holding up really well. it's a non flim forming penetrating stain that does not need to be stripped out but can simply be re-applied like the TWP products. Obviously the methodology of putting on the stain is important but choosing the right product is THE most important decision! My $.02.........


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

What exactly have you read about Cabot that is not good?


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## liljohnny (Jun 17, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> What exactly have you read about Cabot that is not good?


http://www.contractortalk.com/f50/cabot-deck-sealer-opinion-68446/

http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/cabot-stains-w-no-voc-over-old-cabots-55655/

http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/letter-cabot-32055/

Just saying, do your research...removing old stain from a deck is a sh***y job!


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

I looked up TWP and an issue for me is the closest retailer for the product is over 50 miles away...

All this information, while good, makes it hard to come up with an informed decision


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

liljohnny said:


> http://www.contractortalk.com/f50/cabot-deck-sealer-opinion-68446/
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/cabot-stains-w-no-voc-over-old-cabots-55655/
> 
> ...


Well, that's Cabot I guess, but not the Cabot product we're talking about here as far as I can tell. I didn't see much convincing there. There isn't any UV protection in a clear product, and no one is recommending the solid color products from any manufacturer. As far as I know, we're talking about the straight oil based translucent and semi-transparent products.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

My experience with Cabbot transparent oil stains had been good. I was just checking on some decks done with it the other day. 

The green deck in the first two pics was new PT lumber done with Cabbot semi-solid oil stain in May of 2012. These decks only get a few hours of sun each day, and are holding up well. 

The second two pics are of a nine year old deck that was stripped and done with Cabbot Clear Solutions cedar color a little over a year before the pic was taken. This deck gets full afternoon sun. 

The last pic of the red deck was taken two years after stripping and coating with Cabbot semi-trans oil stain. This deck gets full sun all day, and as you can see at the time of the pic it was ready for a wash and maintenance coat. 

I have had premature failure with Cabbot acrylic solid decking stain. 

These are all done with the original Cabbot oil which is still available in my area. I don't know about any newer low VOC formulations. 

You will find that the amount of sun your deck gets has a dramatic effect on how often it needs maintained. Decks in full sun IME, get two years maximum.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Well, photos can be deceiving, but that last "red" deck looks in pretty good condition to me.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Well, photos can be deceiving, but that last "red" deck looks in pretty good condition to me.



It's wearing well, doing what it's supposed to do. 
The original color was a good bit darker, it has faded in the sun. This is the point that I try to do a maintenance coat before they get too bad.

This is a pic of the same deck, taken at the same time, but under a porch where it gets almost no sun. It still looks almost new.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

So this above picture is Cabot after 2 years? 

My deck is 100% sun almost all day - so it looks like every other year for me. Does it need to be sanded each re-coat or only the very first time when the wood is new?

How do I know if the Cabot used is the "original formula" or new VOC stuff?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

I'll post the pics again so you can compare. 

Both decks are on the same house, done at the same time (2yrs) with the same Cabbot stain. The first pic is under a covered porch and gets very little direct sunlight. The second two pics are an area of the deck that is exposed to direct sunlight all day. 

Yes, it makes a big difference how much sun a deck gets. You can see the fading that has occurred on the exposed deck v/s the covered one.


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

Personally and from experience, brushing on is the best way to work the stain/sealer into the wood. Every other year I'd put Cabot Clear Solutions on my deck and fence. It darkens the wood, but doesn't stain it. I'd go with the guy that uses Cabot and brushes. 

I'm sure both of them are fine and a 1 yr. warranty is silly on something like this, because that's about how long any product will start to age a bit. 

Stain will eventually wear and look like it needs redone more frequently than something like a clear solution or sealer. Sealers are more transparent and they've been said not to protect the wood quite as nicely as a stain would. however....

ANY wood that sits outside and any product that does the same is going to age, wear, and need a considerable amount of upkeep over the lifetime of the deck. That's why some people never want wood decks. If you can do it yourself, you'll save quite a bit of money, because you'll just need a nice day, a brush and some product....no labor charge


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

adgjqetuo said:


> So this above picture is Cabot after 2 years?
> 
> My deck is 100% sun almost all day - so it looks like every other year for me. Does it need to be sanded each re-coat or only the very first time when the wood is new?
> 
> How do I know if the Cabot used is the "original formula" or new VOC stuff?



It shouldn't need sanding every time. A good cleaning including scrubbing is usually sufficient for the first few maintenance coats. 

If the Cabbot in your area has been reformulated, it will likely say 'Low VOC' on the label.


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## adgjqetuo (Oct 21, 2011)

I found this site online - is this a good guide?

http://www.deckstainhelp.com/category/deck-product-reviews/deck-stain-reviews/


It seems Flood rated slightly higher than Cabot? I think Flood is available at Lowes?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

adgjqetuo said:


> I found this site online - is this a good guide?
> 
> http://www.deckstainhelp.com/category/deck-product-reviews/deck-stain-reviews/
> 
> It seems Flood rated slightly higher than Cabot? I think Flood is available at Lowes?



Yeah, that looks like a pretty good review site to me. 

The Flood that is reviewed in the article is a kind I have not seen yet. They reviewed the CWF-UV5 Oil, sounds interesting. I am only familiar with the regular CWF-UV. 

Maybe Gymschu has used this new formulation, I know he uses CWF a lot. 

http://www.flood.com/pdf/app-instructions-03.pdf


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