# R11 and R13 same thickness



## Windows on Wash

You are correct on all points.


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## elmaur

This contractor comes highly recommended so I am hoping I misunderstood what he said. I will talk to him again. Thanks.


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## gregzoll

You are probably better using Bluean batts or a Spray applied Cellulose. R-11 will do nothing to help keep the house cool in a place like Tucson. You are better to just not put any insulation in, if wanting fiberglass batts.


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## Windows on Wash

At that shallow depth, rigid or closed cell is the only way to go.


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## Nailbags

what you have is high density batts. I would also stay away from Cellulose because of its mold problems and settling and fire hazards. its just shredded newspapers and other paper products.


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## Gary in WA

You get an R-6+ which is better than convective loops in an empty cavity: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/sites/default/files/Compressing fiberglass.JPG

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KWZ/is_3_6/ai_n8582994/

Air seal the sheathing, wiring/plumbing holes, and drywall: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...whJgNT&sig=AHIEtbT0wgPl1yn5T5V8M8l_EeA2F-qvvA

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/air-barriers-airtight-drywall-approach/

Gary


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## Nailbags

And if you really want to seal your home before you insulate it use this product!
http://ecoseal.knaufinsulation.us/ This is D'a Bomb! faster then using tubes of caulk!


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## Windows on Wash

Nailbags said:


> what you have is high density batts. I would also stay away from Cellulose because of its mold problems and settling and fire hazards. its just shredded newspapers and other paper products.


Can you provide some information about the fire hazards?

Anything on the mold and settling would be great too.


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## gregzoll

Nailbags said:


> what you have is high density batts. I would also stay away from Cellulose because of its mold problems and settling and fire hazards. its just shredded newspapers and other paper products.


You do know that it is treated, so the problems you stated is just FUD. Millions of homes have Cellulose in the walls and attics and have had no problems with it.


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## Nailbags

gregzoll said:


> You do know that it is treated, so the problems you stated is just FUD. Millions of homes have Cellulose in the walls and attics and have had no problems with it.


Here are some links to prove my point! http://www.ehow.com/list_7187883_hazards-blown_in-cellulose-insulation.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA3XVgef5zU&feature=related
After watching this video it is a now brainer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn4lWy8CVlY&feature=related
Also the fire retarder degrades in about six months. So what if it is not installed correctly? and it is in contact with a heat source? I know homes in America are not just bursting in flames and the independent Lab in the first video even says it passed. Would you really want it in your home? because once the chemicals have finished off gassing the vermin can move in the mold can grow and fire can happen. Glass can not burn it can only melt.

Also people once said that asbestos was safe and a great insulator and millions of homes had it in stalled as well.


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## Fix'n it

Nailbags said:


> And if you really want to seal your home before you insulate it use this product!
> http://ecoseal.knaufinsulation.us/ This is D'a Bomb! faster then using tubes of caulk!


that is great. and what i need, but in a diy format that doesn't cost an arm&leg.


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## Fix'n it

oh. what kind of exterior wall is framed to 1 1/2" . that doesn't sound right.


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## Nailbags

Fix'n it said:


> that is great. and what i need, but in a diy format that doesn't cost an arm&leg.


If you look at it a five gallon bucket is about the same as if you bought the same amount of caulking to do the bottom plates the top plates and every seam in the stud cavities. you might even save money. And a whole lot of time. and yes you can DYI it your self rent a airless paint sprayer and buy it from a lumber yard. Also to answer your second question 2x6 is now the norm for exterior walls so you can have a good amount of insulation in them.


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## framer52

nauilbags, you seem to have a thing against cellulose insulation. You have referenced a site that shares your views. 

Now would you like the counterpoints?

First, Borates are inert, so the claim they disappear in 6 months is BS.

Second, if your wall is getting a high degree of water, yes, it can cause mold. Now we come to the answer. Fix the damn wall so the water isn't present. Cells dries well as does fiberglass.

Now as to comparison to asbestos, that is completely illogical as one is a know problem and the other isn't at all.

http://www.environmentsensitive.com/BoratePerformance.html

Now go to Wiki and read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_insulation


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## Fix'n it

Nailbags said:


> If you look at it a five gallon bucket is about the same as if you bought the same amount of caulking to do the bottom plates the top plates and every seam in the stud cavities. you might even save money. And a whole lot of time. and yes you can DYI it your self rent a airless paint sprayer and buy it from a lumber yard.
> 
> Also to answer your second question 2x6 is now the norm for exterior walls so you can have a good amount of insulation in them.


how much is a 5gl bucket ? i may just buy a sprayer. as renting it 10 times would cost more.

how did 1 1/2" turn into 2x6 ?


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## Nailbags

Try the UL Rated tests even the test there show a burn pattern in paper mulch insulation. and in 99.99 percent of all house fires caused by a heat source it was the insulation that helped spread the fire NFPA 2007. Is paper mulch approved yes! does it pass the min standards yes! do the chemicals break down? Yes! UL test have shown it to not be as effective six month after installation. Do you install it? do you work for a insulation company that markets it? because you sound like you have a vested interest in it? I do not have a investment in either or. I am just pointing out the facts. celulose does burn and does smolder and does create embers even the maker of it had a fire in their insulation when the retardant was brand new. That says something right there. I have yet to see a fiberglass batt smolder and create any embers. I have seen it melt. I also weld and use fiberglass blankets for a fire blocking so slag won't drop down I have yet to see a cellulose blanket made for welding. Also Fiberglass is a very green insulation some of it is made from 62 percent post consumer contents and almost all companies now have them free of phenols and formaldehyde and petroleum binders. I have installed both in homes and both do work but I would side with a very time tested and proven product that is cheap and easy to use.
Two more things that turns me off from Cellulose.
1 when it gets wet the fire retarding is lessened and how do they blow it in they mix it with water?
2. It has newspaper ink in it and a lot of kids and people are allergic to that stuff.
3. because it is made from card board and paper it might already have mold in it.
Just stuff to think about be for using it.


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## Nailbags

Fix'n it said:


> how much is a 5gl bucket ? i may just buy a sprayer. as renting it 10 times would cost more.
> 
> how did 1 1/2" turn into 2x6 ?


It is around 175 a bucket prices may very but is cheaper then ten cases of Quad calk and being on your knees caulking the bottom plate. two hours and can be done on a 2,000 sqf home and cleaned up.


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## rightit

elmaur said:


> If a contractor told me he would frame a wall with 1 1/2" depth with R11 fiberglass insulation this would be wrong?


Is there a valid reasoning behind such a shallow wall? I'd want a minimum wall depth of 6", where you have many choices for insulating (of which FG should not be included). I was recommended to Roxul (stonewool) via the resident experts here. I researched it, ordered it (through Lowes.com) and installed it. I couldn't be happier. It also dampens sound, resists vermin, insects, will not absorb water and will not mold. It's also does not burn up to 2100 degrees farenheit. R-value is R-4+ per inch.:

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...39.5.5.0.0.0.0.97.302.5.5.0...0.0.zboOhEjKBsE

It has no vapor barrier, but vapor barriers in climate zone 2 are not required by IRC code (_you should check your county codes and research the viability of this for your climate!_).



Nailbags said:


> And if you really want to seal your home before you insulate it use this product!
> http://ecoseal.knaufinsulation.us/ This is D'a Bomb! faster then using tubes of caulk!


Looks good, but the ease of use could be countered by sprayer clean-up hassles. I used silicone. It wound up costing me around $75 for a 250 sqft space (about 300 sqft of external wall), sealing all cavity studs, floors, etc.


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## elmaur

rightit said:


> Is there a valid reasoning behind such a shallow wall? I'd want a minimum wall depth of 6", where you have many choices for insulating (of which FG should not be included). I was recommended to Roxul (stonewool) via the resident experts here. I researched it, ordered it (through Lowes.com) and installed it. I couldn't be happier. It also dampens sound, resists vermin, insects, will not absorb water and will not mold. It's also does not burn up to 2100 degrees farenheit. R-value is R-4+ per inch.:
> 
> My exterior walls are slump block which is exposed on the interior. No insulation and very common in AZ. I would like to build a wall on the inside to cover the block because I do not care for the look and to provide a space for insulation. The rooms are small so I do not want to take up too much of the interior space thus a wall of only 1 1/2" depth.


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## Nailbags

rightit said:


> Is there a valid reasoning behind such a shallow wall? I'd want a minimum wall depth of 6", where you have many choices for insulating (of which FG should not be included). I was recommended to Roxul (stonewool) via the resident experts here. I researched it, ordered it (through Lowes.com) and installed it. I couldn't be happier. It also dampens sound, resists vermin, insects, will not absorb water and will not mold. It's also does not burn up to 2100 degrees farenheit. R-value is R-4+ per inch.:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...39.5.5.0.0.0.0.97.302.5.5.0...0.0.zboOhEjKBsE
> 
> It has no vapor barrier, but vapor barriers in climate zone 2 are not required by IRC code (_you should check your county codes and research the viability of this for your climate!_).
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good, but the ease of use could be countered by sprayer clean-up hassles. I used silicone. It wound up costing me around $75 for a 250 sqft space (about 300 sqft of external wall), sealing all cavity studs, floors, etc.


Rock wool is good stuff it does not burn period it melts. As for the properties of sound proofing and no mold or water absorbing or vermin Fiberglass holds the same. just itchy some of the newer stuff from some companies the itchy is almost gone. I do love rock wool. I would put in my top three for insulation rock wool fiberglass and spray foam. And I would always go with a min R 21 in the walls and r 40 in the ceilings. And Rock wool is nice and thick and can do well in the R factors needed.


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## Gary in WA

Posts have been removed. Please remember our first forum rule: "Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on DIYChatroom.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned." Found here and at the bottom right of every page under "Privacy Statement"; http://www.diychatroom.com/faq.php?faq=diychatroom_faq#faq_privacy

Please try to keep on topic while helping the OP, any other discussion should have a new thread started- rather than take time and answers from the original poster, thank you.

Gary


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## Nailbags

GBR in WA said:


> Posts have been removed. Please remember our first forum rule: "Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on DIYChatroom.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned." Found here and at the bottom right of every page under "Privacy Statement"; http://www.diychatroom.com/faq.php?faq=diychatroom_faq#faq_privacy
> 
> Please try to keep on topic while helping the OP, any other discussion should have a new thread started- rather than take time and answers from the original poster, thank you.
> 
> Gary


they asked for references i gave them all the information to let people decide for themselves One person got all bent so I back up my claims with hard facts and Those should be posted.


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## Gary in WA

Nailbags, I understand your concern. This thread was getting off topic from the OP's questions. They would have said your last reference was from NAIMA, a bias group of fiberglass insulation manufacturers. This would only fuel the discussion, not address the OP's concerns. Start a new thread yourself if interested in more discussion on this one subject in depth. I have done extensive research on this topic and will gladly contribute, in a new thread.

elmaur, is XPS or EPS rigid foamboard out of your price range for that thin wall?

Gary


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## elmaur

GBR in WA said:


> Nailbags, I understand your concern. This tread was getting off topic from the OP's questions. They would have said your last reference was from NAIMA, a bias group of fiberglass insulation manufacturers. This would only fuel the discussion, not address the OP's concerns. Start a new thread yourself if interested in more discussion on this one subject in depth. I have done extensive research on this topic and will gladly contribute, in a new thread.
> 
> elmaur, is XPS or EPS rigid foamboard out of your price range for that thin wall?
> 
> Gary


I am not sure what XPS or EPS is but I do know about a product made by R Max sold at Home Depot. It's a closed cell polyisocyanurate rigid foam. It is expensive about $26 4x8x1.5". The 1.5" thickness has an R9.4. I'll have to consider using it.

EDIT: Just researched xps /eps. I think the polyiso has higher R values and is probably more expensive but I do need to get the highest R value for the space I have.


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## bubbler

Nailbags said:


> Also people once said that asbestos was safe


Asbestos was known even to the ancient Greek's and Roman's to cause lung diseases... I'm pretty sure that even during the days of it's installation 'the experts' knew it was dangerous--but they felt that installed in a wall, where it would be undisturbed, it would be safe enough.

Cellulose doesn't cause lung cancer.

To stay somewhat on topic. For my 2x4 walls I used R-15 in some places. So there are certainly batts available in difference densities.


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