# Blocked toilet rim...please help



## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

Just moved in....I found some particles in the tank that resemble pieces of brick...the flapper was also falling apart in bits.
The toilet only flushes when it wants to....I can pour a bucket of water in the bowl along with the flush and it flushes fine.....so I don't think it's the trap or anything below the bowl. The water in the tank fills up but I don't think the water is moving into the bowl fast enough to cause a flush and due to the evidence of particles i found in the tank, I think the rim is clogged. i tried a coat hanger wire and was able to get it up into the holes but I think there is actually something in the aside from build up that is keeping the water slow...like moving particles and this may explain why every once in a while it manages to flush. It was made in 79 and i am just pretty convinced the rim has got something in it.

How do I get it out?

Coat hanger didn't work.....I even stuck a shop vac hose down in the tank hole but it obviously couldn't get in far enough or have enough pressure to suck anything out. I was told by a receptionist at a plumbing company that there was no way to unclog the rim without taking the toilet out. Moving is more of an option that taking the toilet out.

Please respond.


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## jonesiera (Jul 18, 2006)

You probably have a lime build up under the toilet rim and its not letting the water in to the bowel fast enough to flush, the bricks were probably placed there to displace the water in the tank.
I would or get someone to spray muratic acid under the rim to disolve the lime to open up the hole for the flush water to have a greater force to flush the toilet. the flapper can be changed out.I'm sure a Plumber on the forum will be able to get you on the right track!I'm only guessing.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

muratic acid.....

hmm....not real familar with that but I'll look into it.....Thanks!


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## Mike Swearingen (Mar 15, 2005)

Be careful with that muratic acid. Even diluted, it can burn you.
Since you're not familiar with using it, you may want to turn the water off, flush the toilet, duct tape off the toilet rim holes, and pour in vinegar (let sit overnight), then remove tape, turn the water on and flush. Vinegar too will dissolve most minerals.
Also, sounds like you need to replace the water inlet valve and probably the flapper in the tank. I would go with a Fluidmaster 400A valve. They're very easy to install. Just follow the illustrated directions that come with it.
Good Luck!
Mike


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

vinegar...hmm...I used vinegar last week to remove dried acryllic paint off of a table. I'll have to try it.....and duct tape...I never thought about taping the holes shut. That's a good idea.

As for the inlet valve....I must admit I have no idea where that is....would that be the piece just under the flapper?

Thanks for the advice. I'll try it out.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

oh...I just looked up inlet valve....would that be the fill valve?...over there with the float device? 
I don't know what half of these things are called.
Is there any additional water that comes into the bowl besides what has filled the tank? I'm not real clear on how toilets work. I thought it was just what comes out of the tank but one thing I do know is that more water going in the bowl quicker will make it flush. That much I am sure of.
I just couldn't think of any more possibilities other than a clogged rim making the water slow...that and all the junk in the bottom of the tank.

As for the flapper...that most certainly has to go. I'm suprised it's not running. I bought one but I was in a huge hurry and I grabbed the one that closest resembled the one in there off the wal-mart shelf....unfortunately it did not work so I'll have to try that again.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

Reading again...
Involving the inlet valve...which I read let's a little water in at the end of a flush to give it the normal amount of water in the bowl after it has almost all be siphoned out....and if it didn't could cause problems althought i don't think it's doing that because there seems to be enough water in the bowl but it also let's fresh water in to the tank while the flapper is still up for a momment?
Enough to make not get a complete flush?

Hmmm....it seems it's a little more complicated than I thought.

I have another question.
When you flush a toilet, does any water remain anywhere in the system apart from the slight amount in the bottom of the tank?
For example...when i put the shop vac hose down in the flapper seat, I pulled up some water. when I cleaned the shop vac...I noticed the water was rust red. I don't know if that was because it mixed with the water I sucked out of the bottom of the tank which contain particles...which were red but I didn't think it could make all the water red unless perhaps it was stirred up...because the top of the tank water was not red...I could see all the way to the bottom of the tank which is also stained red, but in the shop vac all of the water was murky red. I only had the hose in there for a second to pick up the little rocks...most of the water came out of the very bottom past the flapper seat....it had stopped flowing of course, before I put the hose in there.

To put it shortly....was this water murky red from the particles on the bottom of the tank or did all that come out from beneath the flapper seat?....Does it hold any water down there?....perhaps to collect debris before it hits the holes in the rim?

The reason I'm asking is because if it has the ability to trao any water within...or chemicals that I put in there....could they remain there to some extent after it is flushed.....since some of that might not want to get acquainted with my shop vac if they have fumes.

I need a diagram.
If there is something in there such as rocks I want them out but I certainly don't want to cause a situation.

Calling a plumber is not an option at this momment....but it may be.
I need to buy a tank lid but I want to know jst how much effort is oing to have to go into this.

If there is actual pieces of brick in this toilet bowl rim...is this a really really potentially bad problem? In theory...which could be my over active imagination...if a brick really fell apart....a clay brick...over time....and the pieces that remain are actually loose hard pieces...

I'm just imagining stuff that won't dissolve.

Ahhh...what is this toilets problem?

I'll inspect it all over again and try the vinegar thing before my next reply.

Such aggravation.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Is this toilet a relatively inexpensive toilet?

If so, then I would just replace it.:thumbup: 

The wax ring may need to be replaced.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

I was afraid someone would say that. It is not technically my toilet and this is just going to be a huge hassle...last week it was the freon leak in the fridge. which was also full of bugs and did not get replaced. i don't think the toilet is going to be replaced. I just don't see that happening.
This is all just becoming extremely complicated.

Could the trap be sticking, perhaps?...and the only way to open it is put more gravity on it.

I just don't know. I would very much just like to solve the issue in a simple manner. Last night I turned the water off and the damn thing did a complete flush while the water was turned off.

Why would it do that?


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

...and what is the wax ring?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Install a new fillvalve fluidmaster 400A, thats the 1st thing I would do, then give us a report.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

melanie said:


> It is not technically my toilet...



Are you renting the house?
If so, then let the owner repair it.

From what you have described, it sounds like you have smaller paticles that are "floating" inside the rim but are too large to flow thru the rim.

Is this a 1.6 gallon toilet?

the wax ring is what "seals" the toilet to the the drain line. It is between the bottom of the toilet and the floor (or drain flange).


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

First turn off the water to the toilet. Then remove the water line going just below the toilet tank. Then remove the tank from the bowl. Then loosen up bowl from the two bolts to the floor. Then tilt the bowl up so that the the "particles" may fall back out. Be careful not to crack either item.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Or



Insert a garden hose into passage way just below the flapper.
Turn the water on to the garden hose and it may or may not dislodge the particles and push them past the rim.

:boat: (don't flood the bathroom):lol:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Take an allen key set, use a small size key, push it into the holes under the rim of the toilet, move it in a circular motion, thus will open the holes up, flush the toilet often, soon it will start to flush good.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> Are you renting the house?
> If so, then let the owner repair it.
> 
> From what you have described, it sounds like you have smaller paticles that are "floating" inside the rim but are too large to flow thru the rim.
> ...


that may be feasable to get the owner to repair it later but not right now.
They just got done repairing the refrigerator. It's just been one thing after another.

This place is rather old...the toilet is from 79, is a Gerber and I do believe is a 1.6....but I am not certain because it doesn't say it anywhere. I am just guessing that it is a typical economy 1.6 for it's brand and year. I believe they were making the 1.6 ultraflush toilets...perhaps this is one. Just a guess.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> First turn off the water to the toilet. Then remove the water line going just below the toilet tank. Then remove the tank from the bowl. Then loosen up bowl from the two bolts to the floor. Then tilt the bowl up so that the the "particles" may fall back out. Be careful not to crack either item.


 
hmmm...sounds intriguing but I would probably break it but I will keep that in mind.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> Or
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
oh my...this one sounds very interesting.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Take an allen key set, use a small size key, push it into the holes under the rim of the toilet, move it in a circular motion, thus will open the holes up, flush the toilet often, soon it will start to flush good.


This is what I was doing with the coat hanger and I could get the hanger into every hole except one and I'm not sure if that one was clogged or if I just wasn't angling it in right. It didn't seem to do anything.....although it did flush on it's own once last night and again today but the other times the water just goes around the bowl.....slow too. 

Ok...I'll look for the fluidmaster thing but tell me one thing.

How many seconds should take for the flapper on a typical late seventies 1.6 to reseat after the flush. Tell me that.....somebody time their toilet.:laughing: 

If it takes too long, it's above the bowl and not the trap, correct?
I'm being cinchy. I don't want to by the valve if the toilet is coming out and if the trap is messing up and if the toilet comes out, it may be best to replace the whole thing while the plumber is here before everthing else starts going wrong.
It's missing the tank lid and if I find the right size and shape it may be as much as half the price of a new cheap toilet...or more.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

melanie said:


> How many seconds should take for the flapper on a typical late seventies 1.6 to reseat after the flush. Tell me that.....somebody time their toilet.:laughing:
> 
> Usually after the water level falls below the flapper then the flapper may close a few seconds after that. If you feel the flapper is not staying open long enough then just hold the flush lever down for the length of time you feel is necessary for a full flush. If you hold the flush lever down for a few minutes and it still does not complete a full flush then it appears you may have items inside the rim as you have stated prior.
> 
> ...



Does the level of the water rise up near the rim when you flush it?

If the level of the water stays near half then you usually do not have a blockage in the trap. Any restriction in the trap will slow down the water flow out of the bowl.

"If it takes too long" --- do you mean if the flapper takes to long to close?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Check blow hole in bottom of toilet, it could be blocked, this will cause this very problem.


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## justdon (Nov 16, 2005)

Melanie,
Here is another little thing I try. Instead of the coat hanger find an old set or even broken drill twist bits of about the right size the sharp edges of it when you twirl it with your fingers ,around inside the holes cuts better than the smooth coat hanger wire. 

I think you probably should stick with the duct tape and vinegar rather than the muratic acid. That acid is MORE than nasty stuff. It is alot like lime away on 'steroids' and is used for cleaning bricks when laying new ones, takes the mortar off, thats how strong it is. The fumes are killers. 

You do know the holes under the rim are all slanted one way around the whole bowl??To make the water swirl and flush?? 

If you are looking for a new lid take a pattern on cardboard, like the inside of a opened up cereal box, draw around it and check with any salvage shops, plumbing shops, and draw around the problem of being a poor little gal that needs just a 'little' bit of help, bat eyelids twice and they will help if they have one. 

OR just cut a board the right shape and length and tack a little molding around it to keep it on!! White plastic would be easiest to dust. put a towel over it, a pretty one!! No body would know the diffrence.

Sounds like you 'may' have old iron pipes with alot of rust in your building. If so could be a constant problem If it is bad enough you may have to stick a sediment filter before the fill pipe after iron pipe and before you use plastic supply lines, preferably in a basement or the like. Whats under the floor of the stool is setting on?? If no room for a small filter attach it to the wall under and in back of the throne. Good shut off 1/4 turn valve and you are good to go. IF rusty pipes you may need a sediment filter before your sink faucet too to keep grit out of strainer AND faucet shutoffs cartrigages, (lasts longer)


Good luck, let us know how you end up with this project!! Congrads on tackling this yourself!! HTH --d--


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

ok...I'm back....this is going to be a hodge podge to all. Excuse me if I forget a question.

I found a tank lid.
I put in a new inlet valve and flapper...which initially did not help untill I turned the water level up. It will now flush but it's not what I call a good flush and will probably fail at the slightest bit of too much paper. The water level is up higher than it's supposed to be...like an eighth to a quarter under the pipe. I can live with it for now but I don't like the fact that I know I know I didn't solve the problem. I tried the vinegar. I used duct tape but the holes wouldn't stay closed with the weight of the vinegar trying to come out...which was only a quarter of a gallon at a time...that and the nature of vinegar which I believe will penetrate the adhasive on the tape faster than water and make it come loose...just something I thought of. Perhaps I could try different tape but...I just don't know now if that's the problem.
I'm think it's under the bowl now....perhaps someone could elaborate on the possibilities.

I know it needs weight...more water to open it up so how many things could that be?...and, most importantly is there any way to at least help the problem without taking the toilet out because I'm hesitant to do that. I'm just trying to do all I can before a plumber is called because these people don't have a lot of money and today I came to the realization that we may need to call an AC tech. Lovely...now the toilet problem seems like no big deal. If somebody gets called it will be for the AC first.

When I say how long should it take, I mean from the second I push the handle to the second it gurgles and is done with the flush because I'm thinking if it's too long....the water is just not coming out fast enough because I really have no idea if anything is in the rim or not, but if the water is coming out fast enough into the bowl then it just has to be under the bowl. I'm just trying to rule out the rim because I can't know for sure what inside of it without taking the toilet out.
As for the water level in the bowl...it might get over half, but not much....it looks pretty "full"....I mean, not a full bowl but just a good amount of water but it doesn't look like it's going to overflow. It doesn't even cross the mind, it still has some inches before that but it just doesn't want to go down.
So.....if the water level is not going up high, then at least "some" water is leaving the bowl during the flush? Does that sound right?....it definitely swirls and I did note the slant on the holes. There is now only one I can't get the hanger in.

I just think it's something else now and can't imagine what.
Can the trap be reluctant to open and perhaps open a little to let a small amount out and open when there is enough water coming in but still be defective?...or is it likely some other part under the bowl? I think I need to look at another diagram.

This is an old apartment building and I'm on the ground floor so I imagine it's all in concrete to the dirt and I haven't a clue as to what the pipes are made of but I do believe this was built in 79 and this is the original toilet but to give you an idea of quality features and funding for maintainance....it's also the original burnt orange carpet if that tells you anything.

it will flush now, but there is just enough water in the tank which is about an inch above the water line and it's barely enough to tip the scale, I think and that is why it is flushing. If I put it at the right level, it's back to the original problem.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

As for rust, I have noticed a little rust and noted hard water but I've seen worse. I do believe there is some build up in the rim but now I just question whether it's enough to do this. I was thinking that someone had put an actual brick in there because it appeared like small pieces of brick in the tank....which is still very possible...I don't know.
Maybe it's a combination problem? Maybe it's just time to replace it....however, I doubt very much that this will happen. They'll be buying a window unti before they buy a new toilet. That I am pretty sure of.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Is this a 1.6 gallon tank?

If so, then get a bucket that will hold that amount and pour the water from the bucket into the toilet bowl. Does the water drain better?


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> Is this a 1.6 gallon tank?
> 
> If so, then get a bucket that will hold that amount and pour the water from the bucket into the toilet bowl. Does the water drain better?


 
without touching the handle?....I don't know. I predict it will flush...just a guess. Right now I don't have a 1.6 gallon bucket.
let me look around.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes - do not touch the handle. Just pour the water into the toilet bowl and see how the water drains. If it appears to drain normal then the trap is not plugged or restricted. If the water just swirls or drains very slow then there is a blockage in the trap.

I am trying to determine of the problem is the tank or the bowl or it may even be a blocked drain further down past the toilet and the toilet may not be the problem.

(process of elimination:jester: )


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> Yes - do not touch the handle. Just pour the water into the toilet bowl and see how the water drains. If it appears to drain normal then the trap is not plugged or restricted. If the water just swirls or drains very slow then there is a blockage in the trap.
> 
> I am trying to determine of the problem is the tank or the bowl or it may even be a blocked drain further down past the toilet and the toilet may not be the problem.
> 
> (process of elimination:jester: )


It flushed but I didn't exactly pour it slow. I poured it pretty steady within a few seconds...should I have poured it slower?
That's why I wondering about flush time...it's the same amount of water, just not fast enough to open it up for one reason or another.
:laughing: AAAHHH!

I'm going to try it real slow.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

I poured it slow and steady with no flush...however, there was only a little water in the bowl from not having the fill tube doing it's job because of the way I just flushed it.

Crap....I'm going to have to do this again, arent I?


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

A steady but not fast pour of 1.6 gallons produced no flush...although it would be hard for me to compare the time it took to pour it to a flush. It was a wide steady stream...at least as much as two jugs pouring at once if not more.....no flush.

It needs more weight....and faster.

That has to be the trap, right?

It is simply reluctant to open and simply needs more.

what is it made of?.....is it rustable?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Pour the bucket of water in bowl fast, if it goes out with a big woosh, it's not the bowl.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

I did pour it fast at first....it flushed.

when you say bowl do you mean rim or below the bowl?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Below bowl.

It's the rim, do this take the bucket of water, take lid off tank, flush the toilet like normal, now pour the water in the tank at a steady rate as the tank empties. Now tell us what happened for this test.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

It flushes.
I thought it would because it will with just one extra inch or less of water in the tank.

What makes the trap open?....pressure, right?


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

This is why I questioned the rim idea because if there is extra water in the tank, it still has to go through the rim and perhaps get slowed down but just less than one extra inch of water and it flushes.
Strange.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

How about a picture posted of the inside of your toilet tank.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> How about a picture posted of the inside of your toilet tank.


 
:laughing: ...ok, now you're messing with me.

What in the world do you need a picture for?

I can't get you a picture....what do you want to know?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Trying to help, want to see the setup you got in there.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

I just read that they started manufacturing 1.6 gallon toilets in the 80s and this is a 79....although I could have sworn I have read that gerber made an "ultraflush 1.6" in the 70s....I'm confused. I suppose I could go measure the water but it's getting late.

There is a fluidmaster in there....which is what was in there before I replaced it. I have the CL about an inch above the pipe which causes the assembly to be slightly taller than the tank, but seeing as how the inside of the lid is not flush with the top of the tank it doesn't cause a problem. The top of the assembly is clear...I just thought it was strange that there would be a pipe in there tall enough for the CL on the assembly...which the package says should be one inch above the top of the pipe and this cause the assembly to come up past the top of the open tank.
Anywho....the CL is one inch above the pipe and the water level which is supposed to be one inch below the pipe and the line is marked and visible on the tank...is now set to be one eighth to one quarter inch below the pipe because the normal water line is not enough pressure to flush the toilet and I do not know if it is volume or speed that is the issue or both. If it is the rim, it's speed but if it's something below the bowl then it's a combination of speed and volume or rather not enough speed to cause enough volume fast enough....even if the speed and volume is correct....it's just not opening it up because there is something wrong with it somewhere else.

So I'm thinking it could be either.

unless it takes the toilet longer to flush from the time I push the handle to the time it gurgles and when the flapper drops...because if that takes longer than normal....then it is DEFINITELY a problem in my mind. There's not too many things that could slow it down.....but there seems to be plenty of reasons....although I'm not well acquainted with what they are.....that the water just won't drop all the way out. To me, it seems that could be many things. I don't know much about traps but doesn't it seem that if pressure opens a trap and the trap is impaired that more water will open it and this could be why extra water will flush the toilet when there may be nothing in the rim at all.

Just a thought.

I thought to time it would rule out once and for all...the rim.

Although now I can't say how much water is in it to compare it to another toilet. I don't know if it's a 1.6 and it's getting late but I will check it out tomorrow. I do know that it is a Gerber made in May of 1979.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

ok...I'm back after looking at a primitive version of a toilet diagram which shows the bottom portion. Why is this so hard to find?

Am I to understand that there uis no closing at all below the bowl....only the small amount of water that settles in the bowl....so essentially there is nothing to force open. Can someone explain to me what else is down there? Are there any other openings or fixtures that have some working concept behind them that could be malfunctioning?
Just trying to rule anything else out before I try to clean out the rim again.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

melanie said:


> Am I to understand that there uis no closing at all below the bowl....only the small amount of water that settles in the bowl....so essentially there is nothing to force open. Can someone explain to me what else is down there? Are there any other openings or fixtures that have some working concept behind them that could be malfunctioning?
> Just trying to rule anything else out before I try to clean out the rim again.


The only moving parts are located in the tank. The trap is just a tunnel that the water flows thru. The trap maintains water inside the bowl to keep sewer gas from entering the home. The water from the tank needs to have enough volume and speed to create a siphon action to remove the material from the bowl. If you get a good flush using the bucket then the bowl and trap are clear.

look at the website below and click on "click to flush" - this will show you how a toilet flushes. Read all the pages for this article and you will understand how the toilet works.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet1.htm


Try flushing with the lever and also pouring water from the bucket into the tank. What is the result?

If you hold down the flush lever to allow more water into the bowl, then will you have a full flush? 



:thumbup:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Use something larger then a coat hanger and work on the rim holes, I use a allen wrench set, try to use one thats just the right size to fit, once you get the key in hole/s roll it in circles, this will help break up the hard deposits around the opening. There is nothing wrong with the trap and beyond that, so rule that out.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

redline said:


> The only moving parts are located in the tank. The trap is just a tunnel that the water flows thru. The trap maintains water inside the bowl to keep sewer gas from entering the home. The water from the tank needs to have enough volume and speed to create a siphon action to remove the material from the bowl. If you get a good flush using the bucket then the bowl and trap are clear.
> 
> look at the website below and click on "click to flush" - this will show you how a toilet flushes. Read all the pages for this article and you will understand how the toilet works.
> 
> ...


That's a cool link.

So there is nothing to open...I couldn't figure that out. I knew there was water down there and there is a turn but I didn't know if there was something at the base to open.
Somebody mentioned a hole earlier and then I noticed the hole in the bowl...What is that?...and where does the air come from that helps to stop the siphoning of the remaining water in the bowl? Could there be a problem there? I don't even know where that hole goes.

If you put enough water in the tank or the bowl while flushing...it will flush, but not just a glass. It at least has to be a good size bowl. I'd say at least thirty ounces and to flush it without touching the handle takes at least a 1.6....although I'm not sure if it's a 1.6 anymore. It looks like a regular toilet. As a matter of fact I'm sure if have seen a 1.6...if I did I didn't know it. 

If you hold down the handle it does not help at all....this was my first instinct but it does not help at all....at least not with the old flapper which I thought may have been too...well, you know...gunked up or corroded or whatever it is that rubber does. I haven't actually tried it with the new flapper because it didn't seem like it would make a difference but I can try it if i reset the water line....but I have a feeling it won't help. As a matter of fact...this is going to sound crazy probably but I would say that the faster I push the handle and take my hand off of it...the better it flushes.
I know it seems that should make absolutely no difference but it seems to help it along...it seems to be a little more audible when pressing it down very quickly. I'm thinking if there is anything to it but mere phenomenon it is because the first bit of water rushes into the hole rather than letting it in casually.

I may really be starting to imagine toilet behaviour that doesn't exsist but it honestly seems like it makes a difference.


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## melanie (Sep 9, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Use something larger then a coat hanger and work on the rim holes, I use a allen wrench set, try to use one thats just the right size to fit, once you get the key in hole/s roll it in circles, this will help break up the hard deposits around the opening. There is nothing wrong with the trap and beyond that, so rule that out.


ok.

Are you positive?
It couldn't be narrowed out or and anything and just need more weight in the water?

I will try using something else but the holes are different sizes. One is real big...I guess because it's for the front.

I do have a respirator and goggles and I have used chemicals before that weren't the nicest things to play with....stuff with MEK and lead and stuff like that. I used to be a pneumatic painter. 
I just have never heard of muratic acid....I don't know where to get it and I didn't know if it was something highly combustible or what.
I'll have to check my filters to see what all they protect against if it is truely noxious and harmful but I do have one.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Am I positive?

Yes I am, 22 years in the field doing nothing but plumbing, it's the rate of water flow leaving the tank and entering the bowl defines how well it will flush.

The hole in bottom of toilet starts the siphone action in the bowl once flushed, if this hole gets plugged up, the bowl water will just swril and never evacuate the contents.


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## mdshunk (Dec 4, 2005)

melanie said:


> ok.
> 
> Are you positive?
> .


I can't believe that Ron is able to keep his composure.

A plumber who normally bills out at healthy rate has repeatedly given professional advice that was given the same merit as the average man on the street. Unbelievable.


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## Double A (Sep 10, 2006)

melanie said:


> Just moved in....I found some particles in the tank that resemble pieces of brick...the flapper was also falling apart in bits.
> The toilet only flushes when it wants to....
> 
> I think the rim is clogged....like moving particles and this may explain why every once in a while it manages to flush. It was made in 79 and i am just pretty convinced the rim has got something in it.
> ...


I've tried to stay out of this, but in an attempt to help Ron out here, I'm gonna ask a few questions.

You say, "The toilet only flushes when it wants to", what do you mean by this?

If you stand there and flush it 10 times in a row, allowing it to completely refill and shut off between flushes, do you mean that it will not evacuate the bowl for most or all of those flushes? 

Look below the water line at the very bottom of the inside of the bowl. Is there a hole down there, close to the front?

If the rim is blocked with pieces of brick, you're not going to get them out without getting drastic, and perhaps not even then. You can try to fiddle with the holes and wire and what not, but the rim is built sorta like a hula hoop with holes in the bottom. If you stick something in to break it up, it just moves away from the hole you're poking around in.

I see that the bowl will flush with water from a bucket. This is a good test of the pipes below for blockage and for obstructions in the trapway. This tells Ron and others, that there is a problem with how fast the water is able to get from the tank to the bowl.

Its the weight of the water or a siphon inducing jet of water blowing up the trapway that starts the flush (hence the reason I had you look for the hole in the bottom of the inside of the bowl). 

Once started, it will not stop until it breaks that siphon by 'burping' or 'gurgling'. That is when the water refills the bowl. A blocked rim can cause this problem if all the water or the majority of the water used for the flush comes through the rim.

If the owner doesn't want to replace the WC, and you don't want to replace the WC, and no one wants to call a plumber out to fix or replace the WC, my best advice is flush it with a bucket. 

Old disintegrated brick caught in rim = cheaper to replace the WC than spend any more time messing with it.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

If the tank is in good shape then you could just have the owner replace the bowl. An inexpensive bowl should be around $30 - $50.

I suggested using the garden hose to flush out the brick inside the rim.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

To check the hole in the bottom of the toilet, put fingers down near the this hole and flush the toilet, if you feel a good strong flow of water comming through it, then this will tell you that hole is clear of debrie.


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## Double A (Sep 10, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> To check the hole in the bottom of the toilet, put fingers down near the this hole and flush the toilet, if you feel a good strong flow of water comming through it, then this will tell you that hole is clear of debrie.


Yes and no. You will feel an even stronger flow of water if a piece of brick is blocking part of that hole. Think thumb on end of garden hose. 

We're looking for volume, not so much pressure.

As for replacing the bowl, just where are you going to buy a 27 year old bowl?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Double A said:


> As for replacing the bowl, just where are you going to buy a 27 year old bowl?


Most bowls should have standard configurations for replacement. The poster was looking for an inexpensive repair. 

I recommended replacing the whole toilet but the owner of this house is on a limited budget.

If the toilet seat of a 27 year old toilet needed to be replaced then would you just replace the seat or buy a whole new toilet?

If the fill valve of the 27 year old toilet needed to be replaced then would you just replace the fill valve or replace the whole toilet?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

:boat:


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## mdshunk (Dec 4, 2005)

redline said:


> Most bowls should have standard configurations for replacement.


That's what you'd think. Many do. Many don't.


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## Double A (Sep 10, 2006)

redline said:


> Most bowls should have standard configurations for replacement.


Should, but, they don't. Simple as that. 

Two small holes and one big one doesn't a match make. There is more to it than that. Just look on Plumbingsupply.com. They sell 12 different tank to bowl gaskets. The Gerber and Eljer are at opposite ends of the spectrum in size and they are in no way interchangeable, but they were super popular in 1979. Thousands of them were installed in homes. 

I wish it were that simple, but its not, sorry.


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## ThorsgaardFoundry (Oct 15, 2006)

I had the same problem. Just a month ago! I replaced all the dingys on the inside, and for what it all cost to replace this, then that, I finally went to Menard's and bought a cheap Eljer "PATRIOT" throne! Now, this sucker came with everything 'cept the wax ring, which is cheeeep...all for 58 bucks! A fill valve cost me half that in my home town!:furious: 

Theres a hand nut for the supply line, two nuts for the mechanical part..Remove these after shutting off water, and scoopiing out bowl, and pull old out and throw away. Clean off flange of old wax, put new wax ring on, and install new closet bolts while you're at it(It's easier - and they're cheap). Plop new toilet onto gasket wax ring, sit on it (Not to use, yet, but for weight - to compress wax)tighten bolts (nuts), hook up water supply, turn on water and Enjoy!


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