# Removing vermiculite



## hisandhersrenos

Hello everyone!
I am brand new on this site today. 
I was hoping someone could give me info on removing vermiculite.
We are currently selling our older home and there is a very small amount in the attic of one room, it has become a huge issue with every buyer, but anyhow we have decided to leave it to whoever buys. However e have purchased another home with a huge attic and it is full of the stuff, we do most of our own renovations and have for years, so we are prepared to purchase our own hazmat suits and masks, and follow the procedures that we have educated ourselves about and save ourselves 15,000-20,000$
Has anyone else done this? It may just be us, but this is beginning to look like such a cash grab, and there seems to be such a general air of panic surrounding it that everyone gasps when we tell them we are doing it ourselves.
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Cindy


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## user1007

Where are you? Vermiculite was sprayed in as an insulation material? 

Those of us who worked with it in the nursery and landscape industry worry about legacy contact with the stuff. I don't think it is going to prove to be what asbestos was but you never know. 

It is light weight and will go airborne on you the minute you hit it with vacuum, or for that matter any airflow. Some particles will fracture. 

Where were you planning to put this if even dressed carefully in hazard suits? The stuff loves static electricity and will stick to the suits you know. If you can get it out of your living spaces? Is it legal to be doing this yourselves where you are? Should this be a DIY project? 

Where did you get the appropriate Hazmat suits by the way and should the fact you need them not be the ultimate clue you should not do this on your own?

Again I am guessing you are not in the US? Never seen vermiculite insulation here but Illinois EPA and US EPA would be all over me for trying to abate it with just a hazard suit and I would love to own (now that you hinted there is a market where you are and is warmer in what I call winter?) but am not certified to wear for vermiculite. Don't do this by yourselves. :no:

Even if you could pull this off? Get it bagged? The fines for ever getting caught getting ridding of it under cover of darkness and with the best of freinds or mates? :whistling2:


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## Scuba_Dave

Information on vermiculite insulation used in the US:

http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/insulation.html

Seems they think some of it was contaminated with asbestos
The concern with removing it yourself is spreading the asbestos
Since a homeowner is allowed (not recomended) to removed asbestos, the same seems to hold true for vermiculite



> EPA and ATSDR are not recommending at this time that homeowners have vermiculite attic insulation tested for asbestos. As testing techniques are refined, EPA and ATSDR will provide information to the public on the benefits of testing that produce more definitive and accurate test results


Seems they do not think it is as harmful as Asbestos
--its the asbestos _mixed in_ the vermiculite that is the problem
And vermiculite is used in potting soils


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## Bondo

> It may just be us, but this is beginning to look like such a cash grab, and there seems to be such a general air of panic surrounding it that everyone gasps when we tell them we are doing it ourselves.


Ayuh,... I Agree,... Right up there with 2nd hand cigarette smoke,.... Pretty much Pure Bull$h!t....

I bought 2 houses built around the turn of the last century,... 
Both are Packed with the stuff in the attics...
I'm leaving it right where it Is,+ covering it with more insulation...
Leaving it undistrubed is no more of a threat than it's been for the last 100 Years...
Which is Zer0 to me...


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## Scuba_Dave

How old is the house ?
The mine that produced the possibly contaminated vermiculite closed down in 1990

Info on the mine & legal action:

http://www.seattlepi.com/uncivilaction/libb25.shtml

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/385037_grace27.html

Mine timeline:

http://www.grace.com/About/EHS/Libby/Timeline.aspx


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## gregzoll

I am guessing the home inspector is trying to scare the potentials, you and the realtor, by believing that it needs to be removed. The best thing to do, is put it in disclosure, but cover with another layer of blow in. As long as you do not mess with it, just like asbestos, it does not become airborne.


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## hisandhersrenos

Thank you all for input. We are in Canada, and yes it is FREEZING!!
We can remove it by ourselves that is not a problem, as for disposal we have a depot right near where we live that takes hazardous waste for free so another plus. Our plan is to basically copy as closely as possible what the pro's would do, some just bag it and some use a truck mount vac system. 
Most vermiculite/zonolite has asbestos in it, it was in a vein which ran through a mine in montana I believe,which is where most of this stuff came from.
We are aware that asbestos is not a good thing, the woman who lived previously in this house died at 94, that's good enough for us LOL.
We were really just wondering if anyone else had tackled this kind of thing.
thanks again
Cindy


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## hisandhersrenos

Our house is about 105 yrs old, the new one, the one we are selling is aprox. same age and 3 samples have tested posative, but yes it is often used as a negotiating tool and many homeowners lose thousands because of the hysterical panic it creates. The only reason we are removing it from the new/old house is because we need to update wiring, still some knob and tube being used and with an electrician up there moving around we think it would be safer to just get it out
C


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## Maintenance 6

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... I Agree,... Right up there with 2nd hand cigarette smoke,.... Pretty much Pure Bull$h!t....
> 
> I bought 2 houses built around the turn of the last century,...
> Both are Packed with the stuff in the attics...
> I'm leaving it right where it Is,+ covering it with more insulation...
> Leaving it undistrubed is no more of a threat than it's been for the last 100 Years...
> Which is Zer0 to me...


Tell that to the people living in Libby Montana...........


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## user1007

hisandhersrenos said:


> Our house is about 105 yrs old, the new one, the one we are selling is aprox. same age and 3 samples have tested posative, but yes it is often used as a negotiating tool and many homeowners lose thousands because of the hysterical panic it creates. The only reason we are removing it from the new/old house is because we need to update wiring, still some knob and tube being used and with an electrician up there moving around we think it would be safer to just get it out
> C


Hysterical panic it creates? Incurable lung diseases being suffered by those who manufactured the materials or those like you that now want to justify having them and realize to be safe you need to dispose of them and cop a "Real Housewives of Canada" attitude because you have to? 

It's not going to hurt anybody if you leave it alone and seal it if you are allowed to do so. Where I am, you would have to disclose you know about asbestos or lead to close on a place though. Not a deal killer, just a legal requirement here. 

Worst thing you can do for your electrician is to send the stuff airborne.


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## Scuba_Dave

sdsester said:


> And where do you plan to put it before your electrician works around? Landfill?


#1 Already answered. 
#2 EPA does NOT recommend testing for asbestost
Its vermiculite that _MAY_ be contaminated with asbestos, get your facts straight

Read the info in the links I posted



Scuba_Dave said:


> Information on vermiculite insulation used in the US:
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/insulation.html
> 
> Seems they think some of it was contaminated with asbestos
> The concern with removing it yourself is spreading the asbestos
> Since a homeowner is allowed (not recomended) to removed asbestos, the same seems to hold true for vermiculite
> 
> Seems they do not think it is as harmful as Asbestos
> --its the asbestos _mixed in_ the vermiculite that is the problem
> And vermiculite its used in potting soils


 


hisandhersrenos said:


> We can remove it by ourselves that is not a problem, as for disposal we have a depot right near where we live that takes hazardous waste for free so another plus. Our plan is to basically copy as closely as possible what the pro's would do, some just bag it and some use a truck mount vac system.
> Most vermiculite/zonolite has asbestos in it, it was in a vein which ran through a mine in montana I believe,which is where most of this stuff came from.
> We are aware that asbestos is not a good thing, the woman who lived previously in this house died at 94, that's good enough for us LOL.
> We were really just wondering if anyone else had tackled this kind of thing.
> thanks again
> Cindy


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## Scuba_Dave

Maintenance 6 said:


> Tell that to the people living in Libby Montana...........


True...these people were living under the dust fallout for decades


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## Maintenance 6

I can't speak to Canadian laws regarding asbestos abatement and disposal, but in the U.S., a homeowner can pretty much do as he pleases with his OWN asbestos. The problem is transportation and disposal. Pratically anyone can buy the gear to do abatement work. What you lack is the proper training to prevent contaminating your home with asbestos containing material for the next 20-30-100 years. Done improperly you can and most likely will move fibers from a relatively confined area into spaces where fibers can repeatedly become airborne. Once airborne, asbestos fibers can remain so for days, weeks, monthes. Once settled, only a slight disturbance can place them into suspension again. This means that occupants can continue to inhale some quantity of fibers over a long period of time. That quantity will be determined by how well or how poorly you perform your homegrown abatement project. You've already got the test results. You know it's there. Educate yourself as to the risks. In my opinion, I don't think this is the place to garner support for your idea.


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## hisandhersrenos

Thank you Scuba Dave, I didn't mean to offend, just curious if anyone else has tackled this kind of thing, we would certainly dispose of the vermiculite safely, as stated we have a depot near by, maybe because where we are going there are alot of older homes, probably with the same issue. If it seems too big for us we may opt to just seal it in safely and cover with floorboards.
C


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## user1007

Maintenance 6 said:


> Tell that to the people living in Libby Montana...........


:thumbup: And if you haven't figured out where to slip $5-10 in philanthropic donation this Christmas? They would be a great suggestion of mine. 

http://www.libbyasbestos.org/


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## hisandhersrenos

Maintenance 6 said:


> I can't speak to Canadian laws regarding asbestos abatement and disposal, but in the U.S., a homeowner can pretty much do as he pleases with his OWN asbestos. The problem is transportation and disposal. Pratically anyone can buy the gear to do abatement work. What you lack is the proper training to prevent contaminating your home with asbestos containing material for the next 20-30-100 years. Done improperly you can and most likely will move fibers from a relatively confined area into spaces where fibers can repeatedly become airborne. Once airborne, asbestos fibers can remain so for days, weeks, monthes. Once settled, only a slight disturbance can place them into suspension again. This means that occupants can continue to inhale some quantity of fibers over a long period of time. That quantity will be determined by how well or how poorly you perform your homegrown abatement project. You've already got the test results. You know it's there. Educate yourself as to the risks. In my opinion, I don't think this is the place to garner support for your idea.


 
Thank you, not really looking for support, just wondering if anyone else has tackled it, that's it. We still may just leave it be which is probably the easiest, cheapest and most importantly the safest,


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## user1007

Maintenance 6 said:


> I can't speak to Canadian laws regarding asbestos abatement and disposal, but in the U.S., a homeowner can pretty much do as he pleases with his OWN asbestos. The problem is transportation and disposal. Pratically anyone can buy the gear to do abatement work. What you lack is the proper training to prevent contaminating your home with asbestos containing material for the next 20-30-100 years. Done improperly you can and most likely will move fibers from a relatively confined area into spaces where fibers can repeatedly become airborne. Once airborne, asbestos fibers can remain so for days, weeks, monthes. Once settled, only a slight disturbance can place them into suspension again. This means that occupants can continue to inhale some quantity of fibers over a long period of time. That quantity will be determined by how well or how poorly you perform your homegrown abatement project. You've already got the test results. You know it's there. Educate yourself as to the risks. In my opinion, I don't think this is the place to garner support for your idea.


Yup! And I would make sure my furnace intakes were off for weeks after I did this and I would be changing the filters every other day for a time.

Hire someone to deal with this properly please. Or just seal it over and let everybody know you did it right. 

Save the DIY hazard suits for next Halloween.


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## Scuba_Dave

Yes, I have tackled it on a small scale
We had a little bit poured into the top of our bay window as insulation
It wasn't even an inch thick, just some to close up some cracks I guess
No problems cleaning it up or getting rid of it
Not worried about any contamination in the least


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## Maintenance 6

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yes, I have tackled it on a small scale
> We had a little bit poured into the top of our bay window as insulation
> It wasn't even an inch thick, just some to close up some cracks I guess
> No problems cleaning it up or getting rid of it
> Not worried about any contamination in the least


Unless you have a shipping manifest from a certified hauler and reciept from an asbestos accredited diposal site, I don't think I would admit to cleaning up a friable asbestos material. I know from abatement training what the names of the U.S. acts and governing agencies are, but I've often wondered just how many state and federal laws one could break by loading an unmarked bag of ACM in his trunk and hauling it to the landfill.......


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## Scuba_Dave

SHOW me where the EPA states that ALL vermiculite has asbestos in it
*POTTING SOIL CONTAINS VERMICULITE*
*Vermiculite is Not Asbestos*
AGAIN, they do not require OR advise testing *vermiculite* as the tests are not reliable
READ the links I posted


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## hisandhersrenos

Scuba_Dave said:


> SHOW me where the EPA states that ALL vermiculite has asbestos in it
> *POTTING SOIL CONTAINS VERMICULITE*
> AGAIN, they do not require OR advise testing *vermiculite* as the tests are not reliable
> READ the links I posted


 
This is also very true of Canada, in fact the estimator just left our home (the one we are selling) and he was very forthcoming with information for me when we move and possibly tackle this, if there is inder .5 of a percent of asbestos in your vermiculite it is considered to be clean, a non issue, so we will have ours tested and hope to get lucky, in fact in some provinces you are allowed 1% and it is still considered A-ok. He said he would definitely do the small amount we have in the house for sale, it was just a dusting under pink insulation, not so in our new home where it is about 4in. deep and extremely good insulation by the way. So we will get a quote to have it done professionally if the test comes back with too much asbestos, then we will decide on how to proceed. Perhaps just sealing it in and being done with it that way, But we would absolutely undertake a small job like the one you described on our own, I like to think most would dispose responsibly


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## drtbk4ever

Ummm, stupid questions coming.

This "vermiculite" insulation is different than the blown in "cellulose" insulation, correct? Or is this vermiculite found in cellulose insulation as well?

The reason I ask is I was recently in the attic (for a couple of hours) disturbing and breathing in the cellulose insulation dust. Our home was built in the late 1980's and has tons of the cellulose insulation. 

Jeez, I hope it didn't have asbestos in it.


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## hisandhersrenos

i don't know much about celulose insulation, but vermiculite was mostly sold under the name of zzonolite, and it is great as an insulation, unfortunately in alot of the vermiculite asbestos has been found, mostly found in homes built prior to 1985, I have never heard of asbestos being in celulose, but maybe someone else knows???
Cindy


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## Scuba_Dave

Anytime you are working in a dusty environment like that you should be wearing a mask
Guess what...fiberglass insulation is a carcinogen

Cellulose appears to be "safe"....not sure about older stuff

http://www.askthebuilder.com/054_Cellulose_Vs_Fiberglass_Insulation.shtml


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## drtbk4ever

Whew, he breaths a sigh of relief. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Yeah, I shoulda been wearing a mask.


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## Maintenance 6

Cellulose is nothing more than ground up paper, treated with a mild boric acid solution to prevent insect infestation, mold and to act as a fire retardant. An 
N95 respirator is a good idea on any dust producing job. 
Vermiculite is not made from asbestos. Expanded vermiculite used for insulation is well known to contain a certain amount of asbestos. It must be tested using the proper method for accuracy as far as volume of asbestos per random sample. In the U.S. anything over 1% is considered asbestos containing and must be dealt with accordingly.
The human body will isolate and disolve glass fibers that are inhaled. Not so with asbestos fibers. The body cannot disolve them so it encapsulates them and they continue to be an irritant. Under a microscope, glass fibers are cylindrical and relatively smooth. They can work loose from lung tissue and be discharged. Asbestos fibers are jagged and hooked. Once lodged, they tend to stay, much like a barbed fish hook.


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## Bondo

> The human body will isolate and disolve glass fibers that are inhaled. Not so with asbestos fibers. The body cannot disolve them so it encapsulates them and they continue to be an irritant. Under a microscope, glass fibers are cylindrical and relatively smooth. They can work loose from lung tissue and be discharged. *Asbestos fibers are jagged and hooked. Once lodged, they tend to stay, much like a barbed fish hook*.


Ayuh,... And a stray few will be dealt with by our very adaptable bodies so we can still live to a ripe old age...
The Big Scare, is because of the people who've been exposed to it for year after year after year in industrial settings...

Just like the 2nd hand smoke debacle,.... 
Way more *Hype* than Substance....


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## Scuba_Dave

And the Epa does not recommend testing of vermiculite as they state it is not reliable yet
This is all in the links I posted



> While you can hire a trained professional to test your attic for asbestos, this may be expensive and, depending on the methods used, *might give you erroneous results*


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## Maintenance 6

From the link posted by Scuba Dave for the EPA website:

The EPA recommends that: 

Vermiculite insulation be left undisturbed in your attic. Due to the uncertainties with existing testing techniques, *it is best to assume that the material may contain asbestos.
*
You should not store boxes or other items in your attic if retrieving the material will disturb the insulation.
Children should not be allowed to play in an attic with open areas of vermiculite insulation.
*If you plan to remodel or conduct renovations that would disturb the vermiculite, hire professionals trained and certified* to handle asbestos to safely remove the material.
*You should never attempt to remove the insulation yourself. Hire professionals trained and certified to safely remove the material. *


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## Scuba_Dave

You are not required to hire professionals..only recommended
As long as you wear proper gear you are fine



> While you can hire a trained professional to test your attic for asbestos, this may be expensive and, depending on the methods used, *might give you erroneous results*


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## DangerMouse

Maintenance 6 said:


> Cellulose is nothing more than ground up paper, treated with a mild boric acid solution to prevent insect infestation, mold and to act as a fire retardant. An
> N95 respirator is a good idea on any dust producing job.


yup, unless you enjoy blowing your nose to read the Sunday Times.....

DM


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