# Brand New Roof Leaking



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Just had a brand new roof put on 2 weeks ago - cost me $8,000. Now have some kind of massive leak. Water is coming through the ceiling at a pretty rapid drip. Huge section of drywall on the ceiling will likely need to be replaced. Needless to say I'm a bit pissed off. :furious:

I'm calling the roofer first thing tomorrow morning but does a roofing company have insurance to cover these types of damages? I'm not paying for new dry wall. Even if I don't need new drywall it still needs to be primed and painted all over again.

How does something like this typically work in the roofing world?

Thanks


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

In the real world the customer asks for and verifies the roofer has a license and is insured before work begins. Just telling you they do does not count.
Roofing has one of the highest insurance rates so it's not unheard of for low ball, fly by night roofers go without.
Your did not add your location to your profile so we have no idea if there should have been permits and inspections done.
Did the contract state any warranty?
Did it have some simple excuse to not do a proper job stating "replace flashing if needed" instead of replace all flashing and roof jacks?


----------



## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

A legit company will fix the leak and interior damage. 

Leaks happen, the true test of a company is in there response to a problem. I would not allow the same crew back unless there was a supervisor onsite to monitor the repair from start to finish. This just happens to fall under my job description, I hate it. Nothing like being the punching bag for crew that F'd up.

Make sure its fixed properly, if they get on the roof with a caulking gun be concerned. I would like to see them take pics and explain it to you...then pics of the fix.


----------



## Davejss (May 14, 2012)

You should have asked for a current insurance certificate prior to starting.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks all. I would imagine it's a flashing issue. Check out all the ice on the roof thats probably backing up the melting snow and getting in the house via poor flashing. 

Am I on the right track here?


----------



## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Not much help to you now....but any time I have a contractor doing work on my house, my wife and I take lots of pictures....

Funny thing about that....good contractors don't mind one bit...in fact, some are even taking their own pictures. If they object....well...then maybe there is something they don't want you to see. In one case a contractor asked if I would send him copies.

And those pictures come in handy later when you have issues...you can go back and see if something was done wrong.


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I would have used Ice and water shield at the bottom of those areas and at least a doubled up layer of 30 lb. felt for the rest of those lookouts.
Sure looks like your having ice dams causing the issues.
Even in my relatively southern area it's code to use Ice and water shield up to the building envelope. 
Hard to tell in that picture because of all the ice, but is there a gutter there? 
Maybe just the angle of the picture but it looks like the fascia's angled toward the wall.
There's also no kick out at the lower part of the roof to direct the water away from the wall.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...62667A1EB9FEFC0AAFED648AA009&selectedIndex=13


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

joecaption said:


> I would have used Ice and water shield at the bottom of those areas and at least a doubled up layer of 30 lb. felt for the rest of those lookouts.
> Sure looks like your having ice dams causing the issues.
> Even in my relatively southern area it's code to use Ice and water shield up to the building envelope.
> Hard to tell in that picture because of all the ice, but is there a gutter there?
> ...


Yes there are gutters. I don't think its the angle of the photo I'm pretty sure the roof is angled back toward the house which seems crazy.


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

One other thing I see is icicles running down the siding.
My guess would be that's caused from the ice dam on the roof causing water to get into the soffit area and running down the wall.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Roofer just came and tried explaining to me that there's nothing wrong with the roof. The issue is the ice is backing up water and is going underneath the shingles and into the house. Nothing they can do about it.

Does this sound right? Sounds a bit strange to me.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

This is normal?










2 gallons in 12 hours:


----------



## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Yes and no. It's not normal for an average or typical winter. Here in NY and NJ we've been getting incredibly copious amounts of snowfalls, one on top of another, so we're seeing lots of ice dams we wouldn't normally see. I wouldn't blame your roofer for following standard practices, when the winter hasn't been following standard practices. Normally, a 16-20" soffit overhang would get a 36" Ice Shield on the roof deck, and that proved to be adequate, _for normal winters._ This winter's snowfall amounts have been record breaking and lots of people are experiencing exactly what you are.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

I've now got about 8 pots on the floor. Floor is soaked, ceiling ruined, walls and moulding wet. Coming in very fast. Water coming in through the light now so I'm sure electrical will be the next problem.


----------



## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Well it sounds like your "roffer" is going to stand behind his work. what a surprise!
It may be time to contact your home owners insurance. 
They may go after the roofer for the cost of the repairs.


----------



## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

marcus118 said:


> Roofer just came and tried explaining to me that there's nothing wrong with the roof. The issue is the ice is backing up water and is going underneath the shingles and into the house. Nothing they can do about it.
> 
> Does this sound right? Sounds a bit strange to me.


Your roofer is absolutely correct. All the roofers that guarantee a roof job against ice dams and water intrusion are out of business or soon will be.


----------



## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

marcus118 said:


> I've now got about 8 pots on the floor. Floor is soaked, ceiling ruined, walls and moulding wet. Coming in very fast. Water coming in through the light now so I'm sure electrical will be the next problem.


At this point it's best to punch a small hole in the ceiling at it's lowest point to give ALL the water one central point to drain, so it doesn't flow clear across your entire ceiling.


----------



## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Fairview said:


> Your roofer is absolutely correct. All the roofers that guarantee a roof job against ice dams and water intrusion are out of business or soon will be.


"Roofie!!! You gots sum 'splainin to doooo!!!" :wink:


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Water now gushing through formal living room ceiling which is on the other end of the house. Had to cut a hole before the entire ceiling came crashing down: http://screencast.com/t/gLz6f7ple8

Roofer is back for a 3rd time today. Still telling me this is normal. Am I on a reality TV show?

I said "so I have to replace my ceilings every time we get a major snow storm?"

He replies, "yes".


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Not sure where Fairview is coming from but in the real world, no this is not normal and yes could have been avoided.
We still have no idea how the roof was done.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

This is where I'm 99% sure the water is coming in and the flashing was done wrong:









the water runs down that little strip of roof up against the side of the house.

note this photo is from the fall with the old roof.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Marcus,

The flashing may not be done "wrong" in this case but the roofer should have thought about this eventuality.

The problem with this interface is that you really need to remove the siding in order to do it correctly and that siding does not lend it self to easy removal and put back.

This problem and requirement should have been discussed though.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Roofer keeps telling me that melting snow is traveling uphill and under the shingles since the gutters are packed with ice.

That part makes sense but shouldn't their be some protective barrier to prevent water from coming in the house? All told I probably had 5-10 gallons come in and the only reason it stopped is because the roofer shoveled the roof. I don't see one house in my development on the roof with a shovel so I refuse to believe this is "normal"

If I wasn't home when this happened, I would have had thousands of dollars of furnisher, rugs, and hard wood floors ruined. Not to mention the ceiling could have collapsed if I didn't poke a hole to let the water out.

The scary part is it doesn't seem like this guy knows what he's talking about. When I showed him a huge bow in the ceiling in the living room, he says "thats not water." I then poke a hole and out comes 3 gallons.

I'm about to ask this guy for my money back to pay for someone to come redo the entire roof.


----------



## eharri3 (Jul 31, 2013)

So far you have put some rather vague pictures and I for one cannot really see any smoking guns yet. If you're going to go after the roofer for compensation you should understand that getting a new roof and then having a bad leak a couple weeks later is not enough evidence to nail him. These things DO happen... a perfectly acceptable install that meets all minimal standards of workmanship and gives you everything you asked for your in the contract can be done, then leaks can happen shortly after due to things that the roofer wasn't responsible for. It happens more often than you'd think. Questions that I would have would include, is there any history of leaks like this with the old roof? When you wrote up the contract, or at any other point during the job, did the roofer make other suggestions or offer options/add-ons that you declined? 

I am not saying either of you is wrong. But If you can't come to some sort of resolution between the two of you you will need an honest, fourthright assessment from a 3rd party of whether that roofer's work matches what was in the contract and meets the minimal, basic standards of workmanship that he is supposed to abide by. Alot of home inspectors offer this as as service, and gear their reports and assessments to the eventuality of testifying in court on your behalf. If your roofer won't fess up to anything and you don't really have any idea what's going on up there, you may need to invest a few hundred more dollars to make a real case here.

A photo close up of the suspect flashing on that wall and on other nearby intersections and roof openings would help. The appropriate technique involves step flashing with the top edge slid underneath that siding. A common lowest bidder hack technique to try and seal out moisture when they can't or won't be bothered with that is to simply slap the flashing against the wall and bury the top edge in caulk. Sometimes they will just flash that hole section with a single strip and not step at all. If whatever caulk they use wears away or they miss spots with it, it is more suspectiple to leaks than proper step flashing and counter flashing, which can do their job with minimal amounts of sealant. If we were to see something like that in a photo it would be pretty good ammunition to make a case that this was a hack job.

Ice and water shield typically gets applied for the first 3-6 feet up from the roof edge. It doesn't hurt and can only help to go further, but it's only typically done that way if specifically laid out in the contract. Otherwise if your roof iced up badly enough for the water to make its way even further up the roof than that, it can still get in. If icing happened somewhere away from the eaves where there is no I&W, leaks can happen. It's not necessarily the roofer's job if the contract didn't call for it to be installed there and he otherwise did a proper job.

I strongly suspect things were done wrong here because of the large amount of water that's getting in, but it doesn't really sound like you've made your case yet beyond telling him it must be his fault because the re-roof was so recent. You need a little more than that.


----------



## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

most likely a ''hole'' right where the gutter meets the roof,that would put the leak where the ceiling damage is,the shingles were probably just slid under the fascia a bit


----------



## FixItFranky (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes the roof should defintely provide a guarantee


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> most likely a ''hole'' right where the gutter meets the roof,that would put the leak where the ceiling damage is,the shingles were probably just slid under the fascia a bit


You mean like this? I'd have to get closer to see a hole but sure does look like a lot of rotted wood.


----------



## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

no..that's a separate issue,the upper gutter where it meets the valley

''ice damming'' is causing water in to the soffit area at the bottom of the valley where there probably is no paper/shingle/flashing


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> no..that's a separate issue,the upper gutter where it meet the valley


I'll have to get up on the roof tomorrow and see. Raining today. These pics were taken from my window.


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Siding was installed wrong to begin with.
They never should make direct contact with the shingles on the roof.
It's suggest to have a 2" gap.
There is no kick out to direct the water on the roof away from the wall and into the gutter.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...834CCC50216135B898DFE23F655&selectedIndex=291


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

AndyWRS said:


> A legit company will fix the leak and interior damage.
> 
> Leaks happen, the true test of a company is in there response to a problem. I would not allow the same crew back unless there was a supervisor onsite to monitor the repair from start to finish. This just happens to fall under my job description, I hate it. Nothing like being the punching bag for crew that F'd up.
> 
> Make sure its fixed properly, if they get on the roof with a caulking gun be concerned. I would like to see them take pics and explain it to you...then pics of the fix.


I agree completely with Andy. Its not the screw up that matters, its the recovery. The repair crew should investigate the problem, take pictures, and explain to you exactly what went wrong, and how they are going to fix it. If you can, post damage pictures back here and the intended fix for a devils advocate take on the situation. It sounds like you are going to have to open up the leak area and let it dry out good before repair. Poke a drain hole in the drywall in the center of the leak so it does not spread out too much, and dont sign anything that absolves the contractor of future damage based on this leak. Spray the framing with Tile-X and let dry before closing up. A simmer pump with a level switch and a hose in a clean trash can works good to remove water unattended. You can run the hose into a standpipe or a bath tub.

The roofing contractor should fix or cause to fix everything to your absolute satisfaction if they are a decent company. Believe it or not, this is a very good opportunity for this contractor to gain very good PR, and a free salesman..............You.

Sorry, I did not see the pictures before I posted. I would have recommended that you reside this home as part of a package. You cannot properly flash the roof unless you remove the siding, and the siding is toast.


----------



## eharri3 (Jul 31, 2013)

Here is what I am keying in on:

1) I still cannot tell what was done with the flashing. As mentioned, the siding is too low for me be able to see it. And I know another layer of shingles is often woven in over the horizontal part to help it blend in with the roof, so I can't make a definitive judgement about that part based on what I see. Someone else may be able to but I cannot.

2) The siding that would have been pulled up to install fresh flashing is rotted and deteriorated. I have a hard time believing the roofer messed with that. To do this job properly a good roofer would have told you a proper flashing job would involve the siding being pulled up, and since it is in such bad condition that will mean those areas will need to be replaced. As previously mentioned, even under the best of circumstances that siding is not easy to work with. I would imagine in the shape it's in in those photos it is impossible to pull it off without destroying it and needing to replace. If the decision was made by both parties not to mess with it to keep costs down, he should have told you he would be reusing the flashing that is already there. Unless he deliberately lied to you about this, I strongly suspect to save money you agreed to, or _possibly_ even asked for, reuse of the old flashing and he proceeded accordingly. Now I have to wonder whether he explained the possible consequences of not replacing the flashing and you agreed, or if he told you everything would be A-O-K and there would be no downside to this.

3) The gutters and downspouts look old and beat up to me. I am guessing they either did the work with them attached or took them down and put them back up when it was really time to get them replaced. A good roofer would have offered to replace those for you if they looked like that. Most of them will always try to sell gutters with a new roof because it saves them from having to handle the ones that are on there with kid gloves to avoid accidental damage and having to replace them out of their end. If they didn't replace the gutters and downspouts, they probably didn't replace the fascia, which I am guessing would mean there is some severe rot issues going on with it.

All this leads me to wonder what exactly the contract looked like and where else corners were cut here. Was this a tear-off or a roof-over? I have to believe you probably also needed some sheathing. Was there any allowance in the contract for re-doing any of the roof deck? Did they claim they actually had to do any of that? 

I don't know what a roof on that type of home should cost so I can't really say whether the 8K price tag is ball park. But from what I am seeing it looks like a cheapo, lowest bidder roof job with quite a few corners cut. Like everything was left in place as is, except a new layer of shingles was slapped down over it all. If you agreed to it, you get what you paid for. If you signed for a top notch roofing job with all i's dotted and all t's crossed and this is what you got, I think you got robbed. A solid roofing job on that house should have involved some add-ons and extra labor above and beyond re-shingling. Makes me curious as to what the competing quotes looked like.


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

I'll get on the roof tomorrow when the rain is gone to take close up photos.

Re: the flashing I asked the guy 10x if the existing flashing was ok. He made it seem like I was stupid for asking him that.

I don't think they took any downspouts out but I can confirm when I'm on the roof tomorrow. They never even suggested I replace them because I would actually like them to be replaced - mainly because they look like ****.

This was not a re-shingle. They tore everything out. I've got about 2,000 nails and staples on my lawn and driveway that they just left. They also ruined my brand new shrubs by throwing all the existing shingles on top of them.

Looking at the contract is says "re-seal, re-flash or re-caulk wherever necessary". 

I tend to agree that other corners were likely cut but I'm not a roofer so I cant know what those are.

This is not the cheapest roofing company in town by any means and came recommended from my neighbor. That's what bugs me the most.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1. When anybody that is trying to sell you something adopts a superior attitude and makes you feel like you asked a stupid question, walk away, they are an A-Hole that you do not want to deal with.

2. It is my opinion that re-useing gutters and downspouts rarely males sense. Its like taking a bath and putting on dirty clothes. LOL It takes too much care to remove them which adds to the price of the roof, and the gutters are never fastened the way I want them done anyway, which is one hidden hanger per rafter tail. usually 24 inches on center. I always require repair and re-cladding of the fascia also, so the gutters have to come off. Hey its a new roof.

3. I think that you needed new siding, and all new base flashings. The only way around new siding would have been to saw cut the siding up about 5 inches and sliding a counter flashing up under the felt and siding. This would be a royal PITA and you need new siding anyway.

4. You should have had ice dams protection membrane in NJ. Im pretty sure it is code there. 

And finally: There are leaves clogging your gutters, that cannot be helping.


----------



## eharri3 (Jul 31, 2013)

It sounds like you definitely need someone who knows what they're talking about to get eyes on that roof and write a report about it. This guy figures you aren't knowlegable enough to articulate what he screwed up, and if he digs his heals in and keeps denying it is his fault you will give up. Chances are much better that if someone can articulate specifics on what is wrong up there he will change his tune. We would love to see pics to help guide you but at the end of the day a professionally written roof inspection report will hold more weight than what a bunch of people on the internet said.


----------



## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

From what I can tell from your pictures they definetly did not flash the roof correctly if any new flashing was even used.But,it looks like they have covered their ass in the contract. "re-seal, re-flash or re-caulk wherever necessary
There could be several issues.A company that will cut one corner usually cuts several.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

In looking at the pictures of the front of your home, you have very little siding to deal with. Replacing the couple of squares of siding will allow you to properly install new base tins and base flashing's at rising walls.

As a Professional Roof Consultant and a Certified Construction Specifier, I can tell you that you never use words in a specification that beg another question. For Instance, "As required" (As required by whom?) "As Necessary" (As necessary according to what?) See? It basically leaves the requirement up to the contractor.

It was incumbent upon your roofing contractor to install ice dams protection membrane on your home at least at the eaves, in my opinion, but I would check with your local building inspector to see if it is code in your county in NJ. 

There is no way for any of us to know exactly what is causing your leaks without a comprehensive investigation of your home, but if you did not have leaks before the roof was installed, its a pretty good chance that your roofer messed up, and it is probably flashing related.


----------



## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

How is a roofing contractor supposed to warranty against an act from God?

It seems obvious that the extreme amount of water is because of the way the gutters are ran and the ice dam. You have majority of the water from the upper roof dumping onto the lower roof where there is currently an ice dam.

I'm sure the roof is done correctly and if you never had ice accumulate, this would've never happened. It looks to be either a siding issue or water that is entering further up the roof.

Then again, all I have to go off is pictures.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

ParagonEx said:


> How is a roofing contractor supposed to warranty against an act from God?
> 
> It seems obvious that the extreme amount of water is because of the way the gutters are ran and the ice dam. You have majority of the water from the upper roof dumping onto the lower roof where there is currently an ice dam.
> 
> ...


An act of god?

A properly designed roof assembly provides adequate air flow up under the roof deck so that ice damming does not occur. Granted, this could require retrofitting of the current home to accomplish the desired end, but that's what separates a roofing professional from someone who simply "puts it back like it was" 

Now, assuming that the roof did not leak with the old roof system in place, it is fair to assume that something has changed. In looking at the pictures of the siding that the OP put up, it was pretty obvious to me that the flashing's were going to be a problem on this roof. It should have been obvious to a professional steep roofing contractor.

This is one of those situations where you have to hit the homeowner with the truth, and if he/she only cares about price and nothing else, well you have to walk away. As a roofing contractor, I very rarely lost a job after I explained what had to be done to do a job correctly. 

It is obvious to me that this roofer simply did not know his trade well enough. My dad, RIP, always told me never to worry about the ones I lost, because they were not worth doing.

The amazing part of this is that people that went with a less comprehensive job, or the low bidder, usually ended up calling me up asking me of I would fix the problems they now had. I helped them when I could, but as you know, roofing is sequential, and you cannot always just go back and fix a poor installation.

The fact that this roofer left nails all over this mans property tells me all I need to know about this guy.


----------



## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I didn't read through the whole thread. Ignoring the nail issue because it didn't leak, I don't know how an ice dam can't be considered an act of god.

Yes you can reduce them or almost entirely eliminate them but nature will always win. I've done numerous jobs where I corrected ventilation and even got reviews that were grateful that we took care of their ice dam issues. One of these roofs was 2010 and last year (after 3 winters) they finally wrote the review and thanked me.

Fast forward to this winter when we've had constant freeze thaw cycles and 25-30+ inches more of snow than our acreage of 30", they had small ice dams form.

Now I'll say, 99/100 roofing contractors never look at ventilation and only replace what is there so the homeowner may have never known different. On the other hand, he may have had a contractor who does a thorough job and explained this to them but didn't want to pay the added cost.

Another question is why if this was noticed promptly was the ice dam not instantly removed by either the homeowner or the contractor?


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Im sure you know how an ice dams form. They form when interior heat is lost into the attic and hits the underside of the roof deck, causing melt water to run down toward the eaves where it hits the cold area above the soffit and freezes. As long as the temperature below the deck is kept at the same temperature throughout you will not get an ice dam. How it is done depends on the configuration of the home.

They (Ice Dams) have become much more prevalent with 2 x 4 trusses and minimal slope which exacerbates the pinch condition where the truss tails rest on the exterior wall plates. We never heard of ice dams when homes were stick framed, with at least 2 x 6 Rafters, and usually 2 x 8's. I am a big fan of using 3 inch Isocyanurate foam from the exterior wall 4 ft in instead of fiberglass. 3 x 6= R18

Have a Good Evening ParEX


----------



## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I looked at more than a dozen houses last week in Milwaukee from 60-100 years old with ice dams.

I don't disagree that the interior heat plays a part but if you can honestly say weather doesn't play a part in it I can't seriously have this conversation.


----------



## eharri3 (Jul 31, 2013)

jagans said:


> Im sure you know how an ice dams form. They form when interior heat is lost into the attic and hits the underside of the roof deck, causing melt water to run down toward the eaves where it hits the cold area above the soffit and freezes. As long as the temperature below the deck is kept at the same temperature throughout you will not get an ice dam. How it is done depends on the configuration of the home.
> 
> They (Ice Dams) have become much more prevalent with 2 x 4 trusses and minimal slope which exacerbates the pinch condition where the truss tails rest on the exterior wall plates. We never heard of ice dams when homes were stick framed, with at least 2 x 6 Rafters, and usually 2 x 8's. I am a big fan of using 3 inch Isocyanurate foam from the exterior wall 4 ft in instead of fiberglass. 3 x 6= R18
> 
> Have a Good Evening ParEX


If it is at or near freezing and sunny out you will still get ice dams even with a well designed roof. Just won't be as bad. In my opinion the op got a subpar roofing job no matter what but there hasn't been enough info to determine exactly why there is a leak.


----------



## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

A competent roofer would have demanded that the siding be removed. Generally, they will run the iceguard up the wall about 12" or so. Looks like there is no ventillation at the soffit. Not sure if there is ridge vent or not, but without the soffit vents, the ridge vent is almost useless.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

sixeightten said:


> A competent roofer would have demanded that the siding be removed. Generally, they will run the iceguard up the wall about 12" or so. Looks like there is no ventillation at the soffit. Not sure if there is ridge vent or not, but without the soffit vents, the ridge vent is almost useless.


And Vice versa LOL


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I think everyone agrees that some better applications and techniques could have been used here.

New gutters and downspouts routed properly and not dumping on the lower roof
Removal of the siding at the intersecting walls and getting Ice/Water up the side wall and re-flashed with taller step flashing
Possible ventilation modifications
etc.

That being said, Ice Dams are sometimes unpreventable. 

The roofer missed several golden opportunities here to do the roof in a more bullet proof fashion but if the shingles were installed properly along with the flashing, I am not sure you have a case to make the roofer fix it.

Hopefully he does and hopefully you can both agree on the necessary modifications to make sure this doesn't happen again.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

ParagonEx said:


> I looked at more than a dozen houses last week in Milwaukee from 60-100 years old with ice dams.
> 
> I don't disagree that the interior heat plays a part but if you can honestly say weather doesn't play a part in it I can't seriously have this conversation.


Oh I'm sure that weather plays a major role. Just for curiosities sake, do you have any feel for how many of those older homes had their attics retrofitted into living space? Changing use has a lot to do with developing problems where none formerly existed. Interesting......


----------



## collegetry (Feb 7, 2012)

jagans said:


> Im sure you know how an ice dams form. They form when interior heat is lost into the attic and hits the underside of the roof deck, causing melt water to run down toward the eaves where it hits the cold area above the soffit and freezes. As long as the temperature below the deck is kept at the same temperature throughout you will not get an ice dam


Not a cut & dry true statement. You can have 4 feet of properly installed insulation in your attic and a jet engine providing ventilation and ice dammits can still form.

If the conditions are right, meaning the orientation of your home and solar heat gain from the sun, ice dams can still form no matter how well insulated and ventilated your attic is. If the temperature and sunlight conditions are right, the snow is going to melt, and re-freeze on metal gutters.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1 rosem637.

This was discussed earlier. Jagans knows this and he was probably referring to what is the responsible cause of 95% of the ice dams in this case. Poor insulation, unchecked air flow from the living space, and inadequate ventilation.


----------



## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

rosem637 said:


> Not a cut & dry true statement. You can have 4 feet of properly installed insulation in your attic and a jet engine providing ventilation and ice dammits can still form.
> 
> If the conditions are right, meaning the orientation of your home and solar heat gain from the sun, ice dams can still form no matter how well insulated and ventilated your attic is. If the temperature and sunlight conditions are right, the snow is going to melt, and re-freeze on metal gutters.


Agree, and it does not help when you design a home with four gables running to a central point with no way to get any appreciable convection going. We used to take a piece of paper and crumble it into a tight ball then open it up a bit then say "This is a roof designed by an Architect" We then took a piece of paper, neatly folded it down the middle of the 8.5 dimension, opened it to 45 degrees, and said "This is a roof designed by a roofer" LOLOLOL :thumbup:


----------



## marcus118 (Dec 5, 2012)

My father just put me in contact with a roofer he's known since childhood who said they should have never installed the roof in winter (i'm in NJ where we're having an awful winter).

Reason being is because the air temp isnt high enough for the seal-sealant on the shingles to properly adhere. The only alternative would have been to caulk every row of shingles but that is very expensive.

He suggested I get a roofing consultant to do an inspection of the roof and give me a written report. He also said if the company didnt caulk every row which he doubts since it's so expensive, his personal recommendation would be to redo the entire roof in the spring.

So does this sound right?


----------



## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

Its not too uncommon to shingle in the winter, if its not too dusty where you are the shingles should seal fine come spring. Hand tabbing is recommended(using roof cement, not caulking), but I've never done it and rarely have issues. 
The winter install has nothing to do with the issues your having.


----------



## TedLeger (Feb 24, 2014)

*Winter Install*

Yeah, as some have said, the winter doesn't matter. The roofing system will protect the roof if installed properly. Once the spring and summer comes, it will just add that much more protection to the roof when it seals up.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

marcus118 said:


> My father just put me in contact with a roofer he's known since childhood who said they should have never installed the roof in winter (i'm in NJ where we're having an awful winter).
> 
> Reason being is because the air temp isnt high enough for the seal-sealant on the shingles to properly adhere. The only alternative would have been to caulk every row of shingles but that is very expensive.
> 
> ...





PatChap said:


> Its not too uncommon to shingle in the winter, if its not too dusty where you are the shingles should seal fine come spring. Hand tabbing is recommended(using roof cement, not caulking), but I've never done it and rarely have issues.
> The winter install has nothing to do with the issues your having.


+1

The lack of sealing between the shingles has nothing to do with the ice damming issue. The shingles, once then get some heat in them and if they aren't fouled with dirt between the courses, will seal down fine.

The issue is what has been discussed previously. Gutter routing, lack of ice/water, not removing the siding, and poor flashing.


----------

