# My Electrician states #14-2 Gauge Wire Not Okay For Baseboard Heaters



## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

I am supplying and running the wire which my electrician will connect up to 240V baseboard heaters for me. He is insisting that 12-2 wire must be used for heaters. Yet I have read it differently. I provided the following quotes in an email to him but he still insists. The simplified interpretation is clear enough but is someone able to explain how the actual CEC rule works to come up with that simplified conclusion? Or is it being interpreted wrongly? I already bought the red wire and used some of the roll. I was planning to use a 20amp fuse for each circuit and have a load of 3000W or under on each. 


For the #14 wire, I was referred to this from *The Electrical Code Simplified*:
_
"Circuit Loading - Rule 62-114(7) & (8)

"The rules regarding electric heating were changed in the 1990 Code. We may now use the full ampacity of cables supplying electric baseboard heating. A #14 copper conductor may carry 15 amps x 240 volts = 3600 watts of heating load. To make this possible the rule was changed to permit 20 ampere breakers ahead of the #14 copper circuit conductors. This change in the rule was based on the fact that the fixed heating loads are just that, they are fixed, they do not change. This is in contrast to the other branch circuits which supply plug outlets or lighting outlets where the total load is constantly changing and is unpredictable."_


Which referred to this from the *Canadian Electrical Code*:

_"Section 62 — Fixed electric heating systems

62-114 Overcurrent protection and grouping

(7) Service, feeder, or branch conductors supplying only fixed resistance heating loads shall be permitted to have an ampacity less than the rating or setting of the circuit overcurrent protection, provided that their
ampacity is
(a) not less than the load; and
(b) at least 80% of the rating or setting of the circuit overcurrent protection.

(8) Notwithstanding Subrule (7)(b), where 125% of the allowable ampacity of a conductor does not correspond to a standard rating of the overcurrent device, the next higher standard rating shall be permitted."_


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## Marky82 (Dec 17, 2015)

What do the instructions for the baseboard heater say? Is it 120 or 240 volts?
How many amps is the circuit? 14/2 is typically used for 120 volts/15amps and 12/2 for 120 or 240 volts/20amps. Either way I agree with your electrician and would use the 12/2. Baseboard heaters draw a lot of power. Run 12/2 and be done with it. Save the 14/2 for another project.


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

Thanks Marky. I've edited the OP to include that the heaters are 240V. Each circuit would use a 20amp fuse and have a load of 3000W or under.

The instructions say: 

"Make sure the wiring procedures and connections are in accordance with the National Electric Code (CEC and NEC) and local codes."

"Make sure the heater is connected to a branch circuit protected by over-current devices rated or set less than 30 amperes".


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

I suppose this leads me to two things I need to determine:

1) What does the actual code require.

2) Even if #14 wire is per code should I bother pressing the point (or bother looking for a new electrician) if most electricians won't know about it or won't agree with it.


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## Justin_99 (Jan 23, 2017)

Follow the advice of your electrician. People with experience recommend things for a reason.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Justin_99 said:


> Follow the advice of your electrician. People with experience recommend things for a reason.


Justin.....Really...... ????? 

On a hack/questionable application, how often do you hear the justification...."Oh, we always do it that way".

I do think experience counts and should be considered, but should also be questioned/evaluated. 

Just commenting....

Best


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

Justin_99 said:


> Follow the advice of your electrician. People with experience recommend things for a reason.


What if two electricians with experience are saying different things? I imagine the code is written by people with real experience as well ...

Actually, I doubt most experienced electricians have much experience witnessing the tested extremes that lead to electrical failures, fires, etc. which the codes are based on. It's not like electricians have tested many ways of wiring that failed, in order to know how much is truly required. Seems most of it is based on following written rules which are based on electrical engineering and scientific testing that is beyond an electrician's scope of first-hand knowledge.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

The 3000 watt heater at 240 volts will draw less than 13 amps.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

How about calling your town building department and asking the electrical inspector the question? Does the job require a permit?


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

If you're in Ontario, go to the Electrical Safety Authority website (they are the inspecting authority). They have an FAQ page. If your question is not there you can ask it (you have to register on the site). While the Simplified publication is handy (assuming you have the version for your province), it has its flaws and is not the definitive document. If not Ontario, see if you can check with whoever does your inspections and approvals. Or ask yourself if you are questioning the electrician's advice to make a point or save a few bucks.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Just a general (non-electrician just a GC) question, why would you protect your 3000W/240 circuit with a 20A breaker..... or even if you were at an exact 15A, would you have to use a 20A breakr.?

(Electrically speaking, apart from code legislation..... would a continuous 15A or 13A draw overheat a 14G and if so why could you put a 20A breaker on it.).????????????????


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## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

3000W Heater at 240V will draw 12.5A

Your rule you quoted says that you can only load a breaker to 80% so you will need a 20A breaker for that load.

It also says in that same section that you can load your wire 100% for fixed restive heating. 

So 14/2 on 20A breaker is a legal install. Why are you insisting on him using 14/2, I'm sure there's not a huge cost difference. It's not like he is doing a hack job, he's going above and beyond to what code is asking for.


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

Thanks very much for the clarification Darren. 

My biggest reason is that I had already bought and used some of the wire. And I suppose I detest the idea of wasting time and money based on an arbitrary idea or misconception/misunderstanding. I have a ton of DIY renos still to do with very little money. It also made me wonder if he knows all the relevant updated codes — perhaps not all updated codes went the way of more leniency, but more required protection. 

But to be honest, though I'm stretched immensely on the budget, I've come to accept buying another $100 of wire, re-running it and just leaving the issue alone. At least it's no longer a lingering uncertainty for me.




darren said:


> 3000W Heater at 240V will draw 12.5A
> 
> Your rule you quoted says that you can only load a breaker to 80% so you will need a 20A breaker for that load.
> 
> ...


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

MulticlassJack said:


> Thanks very much for the clarification Darren.
> 
> My biggest reason is that I had already bought and used some of the wire. And I suppose I detest the idea of wasting time and money based on an arbitrary idea or misconception/misunderstanding. I have a ton of DIY renos still to do with very little money. It also made me wonder if he knows all the relevant updated codes — perhaps not all updated codes went the way of more leniency, but more required protection.
> 
> But to be honest, though I'm stretched immensely on the budget, I've come to accept buying another $100 of wire, re-running it and just leaving the issue alone. At least it's no longer a lingering uncertainty for me.


Your jurisdiction might be enforcing a different Code version than your book. Your electrician might be aware of a local rule, or even another Code section that impacts on your installation. He's the one who has to protect his licence.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Didn't read everything....but in my area of the USA, a 20 amp breaker requires 12 gauge wire. And "not for nuthin", why in hell would you hire a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN and then argue with him over the wire to use? He has the license, and does "electrician stuff" day in and day out.....and you have the Internet.


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## York v45 (Feb 23, 2014)

People.....please remember that the code is the minimumacceptable. I agree with the electrician that this circuit is better done with #12.


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

ront02769 said:


> Didn't read everything....but in my area of the USA, a 20 amp breaker requires 12 gauge wire. And "not for nuthin", why in hell would you hire a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN and then argue with him over the wire to use? He has the license, and does "electrician stuff" day in and day out.....and you have the Internet.


Got it Ront. I'm not arguing with the electrician — I'm finding out for myself first and determining the best course of action. The rules are the rules — they should be understood like black and white. I have a copy of the official code (CEC) as well as "the internet" (which you seem to be invalidating as a research tool). 

I take personal responsibility for my projects. Tradesmen come and go with various degrees of competence and in the end I'm the only one that has to live with the result. If it's inconceivable for you that a licensed electrician could be in error, maybe you haven't experienced enough "professionals" in life that did a job with shoddy code-violating work — it's not so cut and dry as "obey the first licensed electrician you find". Further, if an electrician can't understand the wording of the code written as-is, and can't speak regarding it, then that's not a good sign. If you're an electrician and you knew a fellow licensed electrician were wrong, would you defend him anyway? In this case, fortunately the error I see is not a problem except to my wallet. 

I'm hiring a licensed electrician because I have to per the law and I need that seal of approval, which I understand. I just want it to be based on the actual laws and not misconception. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose doesn't it? Doesn't seem that should be difficult to understand. 

Btw, why are you in a DIY chatroom if you don't believe in DIY?


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## MulticlassJack (May 5, 2017)

York v45 said:


> People.....please remember that the code is the minimumacceptable. I agree with the electrician that this circuit is better done with #12.


I can get that. Knowing what the code is and then deciding to take more precaution beyond the code is certainly an understandable choice. Sometimes, I'll even opt for overkill. But he didn't say it was better done with #12. He said #12 is required for baseboard heaters. And it's beginning to seem that many electricians might think this is the case.


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## mark_kershner (Mar 11, 2017)

Use the 14-2. You'll get extra heat from the wire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Multi-Jack.....

I happen to think you have a very good/legitimate inquiry here.... to say nothing about you're being a very polite/reasonable/rational man.

I think the issue deserves a reasoned response and an understanding of both your code and the intrinsic issue involving derateing for continuous use.

I think the practical answer involved was to check with your local code authority... ....but curiosity would beg me to understand the rational/legitimacy of what you read also.

Hang around, maybe one of our pro's will be able to answer your inquiry...

By the way.... welcome to the forum...I think you will still find an answer.

Best:wink2:


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## afjes2015 (May 21, 2015)

> I am supplying _and running the wire _which my electrician will connect up to 240V baseboard heaters for me.


You need to remember something here. Very very few electricians will allow a customer to run their own wire and then just make the connections for the customer. This is a matter of liability on the electrician's insurance. If this electrician has agreed to make only the final connections and he says use 12 gauge wire then I would do it. If you end up using 14 gauge and he refuses to make the final connections because of that then you may have a very difficult time finding another electrician to finish where you left off again because of liability factor.

And one more time if in doubt call the local authority and confirm with them. This electrician may be aware of rules that are above and beyond the code book which is not unusual even in the US; it is their (local jurisdiction-AHJ) right to do and ask for.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

York v45 said:


> People.....please remember that the code is the minimumacceptable. I agree with the electrician that this circuit is better done with #12.


Code is a safe and compliant method of wiring. Why is wiring it with #12 better?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

mark_kershner said:


> Use the 14-2. You'll get extra heat from the wire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You really think you will heat up the wire at 12.5 amps?


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## mark_kershner (Mar 11, 2017)

jbfan said:


> You really think you will heat up the wire at 12.5 amps?




Not really. Personally, as a DIYer, I tend to over build and usually upsize one wire ga. size. This helps keep voltage loss down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

mark_kershner said:


> Not really. Personally, as a DIYer, I tend to over build and usually upsize one wire ga. size. This helps keep voltage loss down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you saying that you use 10-2/3 on a 20A circuit? 

That's fine if that's your preference, but that's kind of a waste. Unless your house is as long as a football field, there is no (very little) voltage drop. 

AND, if your house IS as long as a football field, you need sub-panels, not oversized individual circuits  .

But, of course, if you're doing it yourself, it's your choice.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

mark_kershner said:


> Not really. Personally, as a DIYer, I tend to over build and usually upsize one wire ga. size. This helps keep voltage loss down.


"Voltage loss" within most average homes is a non-issue. 

Typically the _"I always overbuild"_ crowd does so because they don't always know what they're doing and it's a CYA mentality.


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## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

Interesting. Overbuilding isn't always a CYA mentality. 

How many code compliant decks have you walked on that vibrate or shake slightly as you do? What's wrong with beefing up the structure to eliminate that? 

Admittedly, it's not the same thing as installing AWG one size larger than needed and I suspect that the commenter was probably only talking about using 12-2 w/G when 14-2 was called for, but overbuilding can have a different meaning when there's no profit motive involved. It isn't always the result of ignorance. Sometimes it's about the quality of the results.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

abrowning said:


> Interesting. Overbuilding isn't always a CYA mentality.
> 
> How many code compliant decks have you walked on that vibrate or shake slightly as you do? What's wrong with beefing up the structure to eliminate that?
> 
> Admittedly, it's not the same thing as installing AWG one size larger than needed and I suspect that the commenter was probably only talking about using 12-2 w/G when 14-2 was called for, but overbuilding can have a different meaning when there's no profit motive involved. It isn't always the result of ignorance. *Sometimes it's about the quality of the results*.


Fair enough, but in regards to electrical work, quality = safety...is that a fair statement? All else being equal, I don't know how else you would define quality. it doesn't "look" any better with one over the other (although yellow is kinda cool and white is just, eh  )

So......On a 15A circuit, 14-2 is just as safe as 12-2...so if safety equates to quality, then the quality of the circuit is the same regardless of using 12 or 14. 

But that's just my opinion. As I said before in this thread, and many other times I'm sure...it's your D*** and your soap, wash it however you want to  .


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

QUOTE=MulticlassJack;4380457]I'm hiring a licensed electrician because I have to per the law and I need that seal of approval, which I understand. I just want it to be based on the actual laws and not misconception. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose doesn't it? Doesn't seem that should be difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]

Actually, with the exception of Quebec, you don't (I could be wrong - other provinces might be similar). You can wire the entire house yourself then call for an inspection, but once you invoke a licenced tradesperson, you've tacitly agreed to their interpretation. For that matter, if the inspector interprets the Code in a way you don't agree with, there might be some method of appeal, but in the meantime you're without electrons. My B-in-L and I wired a cottage and the inspector cited two deficiencies; one we didn't agree with, but 'whatcha gonna do'? As mentioned, there might be a provincial or even local rule or they are enforcing an older version.

I'm not an interpreter of the CEC but spent a career enforcing rules and can't count the number of people who insisted their reading of section 1492 was correct, but weren't aware of the small definition in section 1 that impacted it. Maybe he's wrong, but you've asked him to sign off on it. You can either try to convince him you're correct, be open to have him convince you he's not (if he's willing) or move past it.


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