# Mold on framing of bathroom wall



## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Okay, we discovered that the "handyman" that installed our tub and surround didn't do it right, and water was getting behind the surround and running down the corner of where the tub meets the wall.

Today I removed the surround and cut away the molded rock. Most of the framing is fine, except for where the water was running down the corner to the floor and around the corner (floor not level). 

Here's my question: Can I just treat this mold? Or will I have to replace it?


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

btw, this is what the rock looked like...


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## USP45 (Dec 14, 2007)

Do yourself a favor, replace it. Place some bleach in a spray bottle and spray a mist of bleach so as not to disturb the mold. What little disturbance you created removing the rock is fine, but mist the remaining and remove, then replace. From the pix there is too much damage for it to clear up IMO.

TIP: When replacing the sheetrock, leave it up about 1/2" off the tub. Put the new surround all the way to the tub. Caulk the joint where the surround meets the tub. If the sheetrock touchs the tub and water gets behind the surround the rock will act as a wick and suck the water up.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

USP45 said:


> Do yourself a favor, replace it. Place some bleach in a spray bottle and spray a mist of bleach so as not to disturb the mold. What little disturbance you created removing the rock is fine, but mist the remaining and remove, then replace. From the pix there is too much damage for it to clear up IMO.
> 
> TIP: When replacing the sheetrock, leave it up about 1/2" off the tub. Put the new surround all the way to the tub. Caulk the joint where the surround meets the tub. If the sheetrock touchs the tub and water gets behind the surround the rock will act as a wick and suck the water up.


Thanks for the tip. I think that is exactly what happened in the first place.

So if I am going to need to replace the framing, I was thinking about trying to just cut out the damaged portions. This is obviously not load bearing (its not origional to the house). 

I want to leave the tub and just unscrew it from the framing of that wall. I used paint to illustrate the pics of what I would remove and replace.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Any other advice anyone can offer?


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## USP45 (Dec 14, 2007)

Looks fine as long as it can be secured tightly so as not to have any play when you try to move the wood from side to side or front to rear. If there is any wobble after replacing then you may be able to install metal plates across the cuts to stiffen them. These can be had at any lumber yard. They come in different lenths and widths.


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## Hobb3s (Apr 2, 2008)

I wouldn't use bleach to remediate the mold, it's not a recommended practice.
http://www.ecamold.com/pages/bleach.html
Basically, it won't necessary kill the mold, just hide it, and it could do you more harm than good. 

For small amounts of mold a simple dish soap and water mixture is good to remove it from the surface. Then the most crucial thing is to dry the area out, and remove the source of moisture to prevent new growth. 

For larger amounts, replacing the wood a suggested is a good idea considering how porous it is.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Hobb3s said:


> I wouldn't use bleach to remediate the mold, it's not a recommended practice.
> http://www.ecamold.com/pages/bleach.html
> Basically, it won't necessary kill the mold, just hide it, and it could do you more harm than good.
> 
> ...


How much is considered "a larger amount"? 

I haven't gotten to working on this yet, but I cleaned the area with soap and water and sprayed it with a disenfectant/mold INHIBITOR that also claimed to get rid of the odors caused by mold. I did this just for the time being until I could start replacing it...

But when I was finished cleaning it and put a fan on it overnight, it looks alot better than it did! I am considering not replacing the framing, but I think at this point it would be good insurance to replace.


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## Hobb3s (Apr 2, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> How much is considered "a larger amount"?
> 
> I haven't gotten to working on this yet, but I cleaned the area with soap and water and sprayed it with a disenfectant/mold INHIBITOR that also claimed to get rid of the odors caused by mold. I did this just for the time being until I could start replacing it...
> 
> But when I was finished cleaning it and put a fan on it overnight, it looks alot better than it did! I am considering not replacing the framing, but I think at this point it would be good insurance to replace.


 No washing, sanding, scraping, or other surface cleaning will remove _all_ mold spores from wood where mold was previously found. It is unlikely that most construction materials, even when new, are free of mold spores, nor is "zero mold" a reasonable nor possible objective. Cleaning moldy framing lumber followed by application of a sealant may be the most cost effective alternative (where removal of the lumber is cost-prohibitive or otherwise not possible). While lumber replacement with apparently "clean" new lumber may sound appealing, it is likely to be cost prohibitive and in fact may include its own mold when it is unloaded at the work site.
Unless framing lumber has been actually damaged, such as by rot, replacing it due to mold contamination is not justified and would be improper.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

First, bleach WILL kill mold spores. It is an accepted method and even the recommended method in healthcare settings. 
Second, unless somebody in your household suffers from asthma, severe respiratory ailments or allergies, has an immune system deficiency or is being treated for cancer, then don't overreact to the presence of mold.
The problem with porous materials such as wood or the paper backing on drywall is that the mold colony will send out mycelium (roots) in search of food. Removing the mold on the surface and killing all of the spores will solve the mold problem, provided that the area is kept dry. If it once again reaches a level of moisture that can support mold growth, the mycelia will produce a new colony of mold and the process starts over again. It is impossible to eliminate all of the mold spores from any given place in your home. Most molds need a few things to thrive, a food source (paper, dust, drywall, wood), moisture, and to a certain degree temperature. That is why you seldom if ever find mold in your freezer, but do find it in your refrigerator. That said, the best you can do is remove the moisture or the food source. Mold resistant drywalls do this by eliminating the paper. If you have sanded off the mold, then seal the wood. Kilz primer is one that the local mold remediation instructor recommends. You should really vac everything up with a HEPA vac. Mold spores won't pass through a HEPA filter. I always laugh at those "Deadly Mold" ads that try to get you to buy some magic formula or some mold test kit. Mold spores are everywhere. Want a small dose? pour ranch dressing on your salad. Want a large dose? Spread mulch around your flowers. This is one of those things that an over active media has blown way out of proportion and has not provided very factual information. Even some internet sites are loaded with half truths trying to sell magic mold killer.


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## DIYtestdummy (Jan 16, 2008)

Oh boy, FINALLY somebody who has nailed the coffin shut on my beliefs! I'm severely allergic to everything, probably my own sweat, asthmatic, blah, blah, blah. Media feeds on fear and ignorance. I haven't died yet. I have little faith in medicine and none for the guinea pig drugs advertised on TV. Most of the fungicides I have worked with are more dangerous than the mold itself. Bleach sure took care of the "black death mold" in my old apartment. The only thing bleach won't kill is algae.

_"...side effects include exacerbation of the original symptoms, plus excessive body hair and if you breathe air you may turn into a firey monster."_

The handyman helps keep the contractors in business.


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## USP45 (Dec 14, 2007)

OK, the bleach thing. Its just to kill and contain the air born spores. Its the air born spores that we breath thats harmfull to us.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Well if you believe that, it's up to you. You may want to quit breathing though, because that last breath you took certainly contained a number of mold spores. Unless you have any of the medical problems I listed above, mold spores can easily be handled by your body's immune system. You may get sick if you were in an enclosed space breathing air that was thick with mold dust, but normal exposure isn't a problem FOR NORMAL PEOPLE. And even then it may well be the chemical by-products released by the molds that cause you problems rather than the mold itself. Raking leaves or spreading mulch or shoveling dirt on a dry day will get you a super high exposure to airborne spores. If you opened a very moldy loaf of bread you would likely be exposed to one of the highest concentrations of mold spores that you will ever encounter. And remember, those spores that caused that bread to get moldy were in there when you bought it. They started creating colonies as soon as that bread was baked and cooled. My thought is that if I find mold in my house, I am more concerned for what is being destroyed by the moisture, rather than the mold itself.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Well, I decided on treating the mold rather than replacing the framing.

I started with scrubbing with soap and water. Then, sprayed a bleach mixture on it. Let it dry overnight with a fan on it. Then, I primed with zinser BIN. Once it was dry, I sprayed on a mold inhibitor.

I can put my nose right up to it, and can't smell the mold smell anymore.

So I went ahead and put new drywall, using the paperless drywall. that's where I am now.

Next challenge: preventing this from happening again. The reason it started was because the surround wasn't properly sealed.

Any advice on ensuring it is done right? I read somewhere that it is a good idea to lightly sand the tub and surround before caulking. Any truth to this? I also know to use tub and tile caulk, not kitchen and bath as was previously used.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Most bath caulks will stick pretty well to smooth surfaces. I don't think I would sand and rough up the surface. At some point you will need to recaulk. A rough surface will be harder to clean up. Tub and tile caulks contain some chemicals that molds don't like such as a small amount of silver nitrate or glycol. That eventually leaches out and then molds start to grow in the dirt and organics embedded in the caulk. (Paints that are marked to use in bathrooms contain chemical mold inhibitors too). Soap scum has a fair amount of mold food in it. That's what you usually see in the corners of showers, mold eating soap scum. "Mildew resistant" always makes me laugh too. Mildew is actually a class of parasitic molds that live on other molds and the leaves of living plants.
The guy who taught me about mold remediation and control just lives for the stuff. I still get an annual refresher course in it for work.
Glad you got your problem solved and didn't have to over-react


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## DIYtestdummy (Jan 16, 2008)

Fungus lives on our bodies. Mites live on our bodies. Med school was scary. You think the bathroom and the world outside and the unknown depths of the universe are scary? Check out some stuff under a microscope...

If I didn't hate dirty jobs, I'd be working along side M6's buddy! Actually, it's the lab work I hate - boring in downtime.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

For killing mold spores on porous surfaces, you can use an EPA rated fungucide or a white vinegar mix.

http://www.epa.gov/mold/hiddenmold.html


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## Sir MixAlot (Apr 4, 2008)

There is all kinds of new products that are mold resistant.:thumbsup: 

*Mold resistant drywall tape.* 











Includes an anti-microbial coating for increased mold protection, backed by a perfect “10” rating on ASTM D3273 mold test.
Ideal for use with mold-resistant and paperless drywall.
Enhanced protection in moist environments.
Self-adhesive for easy application to joint surface prior to compound use.
Tough fiberglass mesh increases joint strength and structural integrity.
Eliminates blisters and bubbles commonly found with paper tapes
Here's the link Fiba tape Mold-X10


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> For killing mold spores on porous surfaces, you can use an EPA rated fungucide or a white vinegar mix.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/mold/hiddenmold.html


Whatever you decide to use, HEPA vac the area to remove the dead mold carcasses. There are some researchers who have the opinion that even dead mold can cause allergic reactions (in some suceptible people) when the carcasses breakdown to their chemical components. If you are going to use vinegar, keep in mind that the acid will remain. Acid and most building components don't play well together over time. Fungicides will definately work, but most are nastier in the long term than the mold was. And for you professional types, be very cautious about spraying anything with the letters "cide" into a customer's house (pesticide, biocide, fungicide). Unless you have the proper applicators license, you could be setting yourself up for a load of problems with your state's EPA, as well as your business liability insurance carrier.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Maintenance 6 said:


> Whatever you decide to use, HEPA vac the area to remove the dead mold carcasses. There are some researchers who have the opinion that even dead mold can cause allergic reactions (in some suceptible people) when the carcasses breakdown to their chemical components.


The use of a HEPA filter and vacuum is mandatory in terms of proper mold clean-up.



Maintenance 6 said:


> If you are going to use vinegar, keep in mind that the acid will remain. Acid and most building components don't play well together over time. Fungicides will definately work, but most are nastier in the long term than the mold was.


The vinegar-solution-mixture is a "green" alternative to chemical treatments. http://www.care2.com/greenliving/vinegar-kills-bacteria-mold-germs.html
http://eartheasy.com/live_nontoxic_solutions.htm

As with the use of any solution containing any amount of acid (vinegar is generally composed of approximately 5% acetic acid), caution is still advised in it's application and it's reaction with various metals, stone and other materials.



Maintenance 6 said:


> And for you professional types, be very cautious about spraying anything with the letters "cide" into a customer's house (pesticide, biocide, fungicide). Unless you have the proper applicators license, you could be setting yourself up for a load of problems with your state's EPA, as well as your business liability insurance carrier.


Essentially, if a company is not properly trained and certified, they should avoid taking-on any kind of actual "Contract Work" involving mold-remediation. That should be directed-to/handled by, a proper Mold-Remediation Company.


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## justdon (Nov 16, 2005)

To original poster,,,MY pics showed alot of 'rot' in that framing corner,,,or was that a mirage??

Along these lines,,,would those 'blue' framing lumber like I saw on extreme makeovers be a GOOD idea in a bathtub situation??Where extreme moisture and leaks are bound to occur over time?? Do these mold inhibited lumber really work??Cost of same??2X,,, 3X???

I read here someplace about using felt paper behind wall surface to direct water back to tub,,,I cant find that thread now,,,where does the felt go??do you put plastic over wall studs first before attaching cement board for tile backer?? Do you put edge of ceramic tile clear down to tub wall? and caulked?? How would any moisture get back inside tub when completely sealed??Leave cement board up off tub 3/8-1/2" so it doesnt wick water??


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> The use of a HEPA filter and vacuum is mandatory in terms of proper mold clean-up.
> 
> 
> The vinegar-solution-mixture is a "green" alternative to chemical treatments. http://www.care2.com/greenliving/vinegar-kills-bacteria-mold-germs.html
> ...


The mold remediation industry is the new kid on the block and unfortunately there are plenty of snake oil salesmen out there preying on peoples fears and ignorance. Being a relatively unregulated industry, there are loads of people hanging out a sign and going into the business. Because they share some of the same processes and equipment, I see a lot of asbestos abatement contractors doubling as remediation experts, even though they are working with two different kinds of animals, so to speak. There are a lot of "magic mold killing potions" being sold to an unsuspecting population as well as some very questionable procedures being used. Texas already has started to regulate the mold remediation industry, and I expect more states will follow to protect the consumer...... not from mold, but from unscrupulous business practices.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

I agree. The field is still in it's infancy. During such time, alot of mistakes, alot of guessing, and alot of assumptions are made. As time goes on, like all things, there will be more information, more regulating, and more control.

FWIW: I think everything you wrote, Maintenance 6, regarding mold treatment and remediation, was right on the money. 

Even the point about sealing the wood framing with a stain killing agent like Kilz. 
More of the Mold Remediation Companies are doing that now. Some will even tint the stain killing compound a tan color, to match the wood framing (my guess is to psychologically "comouflage" their stain-killing work).


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

justdon said:


> To original poster,,,MY pics showed alot of 'rot' in that framing corner,,,or was that a mirage??


The pics make it look more like rot, but it's not. I tried to insert a screwdriver into it, and it did no more than normal lumber would to...


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## tristan07 (Oct 8, 2010)

CowboyAndy said:


> Okay, we discovered that the "handyman" that installed our tub and surround didn't do it right, and water was getting behind the surround and running down the corner of where the tub meets the wall.
> 
> Today I removed the surround and cut away the molded rock. Most of the framing is fine, except for where the water was running down the corner to the floor and around the corner (floor not level).
> 
> Here's my question: Can I just treat this mold? Or will I have to replace it?


I Think you should not clean it yourself. Because it can cause serious health problems. Call a company to do it. best of luck.:hang:


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

I doubt that after 2-1/2 years it will matter too much. :whistling2:


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## tristan07 (Oct 8, 2010)

*Mold problem*

Ya he is right. Do something immediately. Please show pics after removal.


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## tristan07 (Oct 8, 2010)

*Black mold*

What are the symptoms of black mold?:rockon:


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## tristan07 (Oct 8, 2010)

*Mold*

What kind of health concerns does mold pose to my family?:tank:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

to get back on topic, especially to maintenance 6-what do you think about putting a product like Fiberlock IAQ 6000 to kill mold?


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Where my family’s health is concerned in my opinion I would remove every bit of the mold and replace with new material. That way I can sleep better at night knowing it’s out of my house and the new installation was done right this time.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

in my case the material is the block in my basement, so its kind of tough to replace that


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

federer said:


> to get back on topic, especially to maintenance 6-what do you think about putting a product like Fiberlock IAQ 6000 to kill mold?


Fiberlock IAQ 6000 is not a mold killer. It is a sealer with a fungicide built into it. Kill the mold first. Clean it up. Dry it out. Keep it dry. Then apply the coating (Fiberlock is one of several) to seal any porous surfaces. All you need to know to control mold..................... well that and ignore most of the media hype about how "deadly" mold is.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

Maintenance 6 said:


> Fiberlock IAQ 6000 is not a mold killer. It is a sealer with a fungicide built into it. Kill the mold first. Clean it up. Dry it out. Keep it dry. Then apply the coating (Fiberlock is one of several) to seal any porous surfaces. All you need to know to control mold..................... well that and ignore most of the media hype about how "deadly" mold is.


thanks for the reply! what if the mold is not completely killed before applying the coating? the walls were sprayed with a bleach solution and scraped a little, but i am not sure it was thoroughly done.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

federer said:


> thanks for the reply! what if the mold is not completely killed before applying the coating? the walls were sprayed with a bleach solution and scraped a little, but i am not sure it was thoroughly done.


If you sprayed it with bleach solution, you killed it. At least what can be seen. Coating it with sealer will keep all the dead carcases out of the air. Keeping it all dry will prevent a re-establishment. Keeping the relative humidity below 60% in the material is key to preventing regrowth.


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