# Cement board vs. Ditra



## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

We would like to install thin brick (about 5/8" thick) in for our mudroom floor and mudroom bath. We only have about 175 sq ft or so, but I am wondering what would be the best substrate for the brick? Do I use 1/2" backer board, or should I consider a underlayment like ditra or something similar? 

I like the idea of not building up the floor height another 1/2" with backer board, but will do what's best. FYI, current subfloor is 3/4" ply, joists 16 o.c.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

1/4" backer board, not 1/2", is typically used for floors.
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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

ZZZZZ said:


> 1/4" backer board, not 1/2", is typically used for floors.
> .
> .


Regardless, is backer board no longer the best option given the rolled products like ditra,etc? Is there a reason why one would use one product over the other?


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

Well, Ditra is a premium product that is considered an "uncoupling membrane." It provides a degree of protection against cracks in the tile due to expansion/contraction of the underlying substrate as well as deflection of the floor joists. Cement board is stiff and unforgiving.

Cement board is much less expensive but it requires more expensive modified thinset. Ditra uses unmodified.

This article provides a good summary of pros and cons of each method.

https://www.thespruce.com/can-i-install-tile-on-plywood-1822594
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## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

Ditra requires modified thinset to bond it to the plywood and unmodified to bond the tile to to the ditra. That's the instructions I remember when I used it.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

abrowning said:


> Ditra requires modified thinset to bond it to the plywood and unmodified to bond the tile to to the ditra. That's the instructions I remember when I used it.


Yes, thanks for the clarification.
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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

cibula11 said:


> Regardless, is backer board no longer the best option given the rolled products like ditra,etc? Is there a reason why one would use one product over the other?


Ditra is only 1/8" thick so that will save you an 1/8" over backer. Is your "thin brick" rated for floors?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Thin brick for a mudroom floor? Doesn't sound like anything I'd recommend. 

In addition, even though this product isn't natural stone, I would put it in the same category which means it's a good bet the joists system and for sure your single 3/4" subfloor is not adequate.

Jaz


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

JazMan said:


> Thin brick for a mudroom floor? Doesn't sound like anything I'd recommend.
> 
> In addition, even though this product isn't natural stone, I would put it in the same category which means it's a good bet the joists system and for sure your single 3/4" subfloor is not adequate.
> 
> Jaz


Why would you not recommend thin brick? 3/4" subfloor not adequate? Why?


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

BIG Johnson said:


> Ditra is only 1/8" thick so that will save you an 1/8" over backer. Is your "thin brick" rated for floors?


It says it's rated for floors as long as appropriate substrate is used (the specs make mention of subfloor similar to tile, but doesn't specify the exact type)


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Brick is soft and does not wear well on a floor would be my best guess as to why Jaz would not choose it; it's at least part of why I would not choose it.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

I would bet it's not actual "brick", but porcelain made to look like brick.
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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

ZZZZZ said:


> I would bet it's not actual "brick", but porcelain made to look like brick.
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> .


That'd be my guess if it's rated for floors. Probably supposed to mimic pavers. Not my taste but it's also not my house.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/fc/de/5efcdea0991438f5d1bb3231848d3c3f.jpg


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

BIG Johnson said:


> That'd be my guess if it's rated for floors. Probably supposed to mimic pavers. Not my taste but it's also not my house.
> 
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/fc/de/5efcdea0991438f5d1bb3231848d3c3f.jpg


Its a brick veneer that is cut from the face of actual antique bricks. It's an actual brick, not a tile or porcelain look alike. The picture above is essentially what it looks like.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

cibula11 said:


> Its a brick veneer that is cut from the face of actual antique bricks. It's an actual brick, not a tile or porcelain look alike. The picture above is essentially what it looks like.


In that case, I would research it more on the net. That's a non-standard product and application.

I would go with cement board, and possibly use a brick mortar rather than interior tile thinset.

Grouting brick would be difficult, as the face of the brick would suck up regular grout like a sponge. You might have to go with mortar applied with a cement bag or something similar.

I wonder what our resident tile guru Jazman will have to say on the matter. :biggrin2:
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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

ZZZZZ said:


> Grouting brick would be difficult, as the face of the brick would suck up regular grout like a sponge. You might have to go with mortar applied with a cement bag or something similar.
> 
> .



I have used this product once to reface our chimney. And I used a type S mortar for the grout....by far the most challenging part because of what you mentioned. They say you can seal the brick and then apply grout using a sponge, but it's still pretty messy. The product said to use Versabond modified thinset. I assumed I'd use the same product for flooring....probably going with a 1/4" cement board to build up the subfloor beyond 3/4"


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

I think that product would be likely to develop cracks within a few years due to, as the manufacturer would say, inappropriate subfloor. A single 3/4" subfloor over basic framing construction at 16" oc is not going to be enough. I'd like to read the specs they recommend though.

In general though, natural stone tiles needs to meet L720 deflection for both the framing and the subfloor....especially the subfloor, AND always needs a double layer of subfloor that totals 1 1/4", such as 2x 5/8". 

Then of course there's the maintenance issue with this type of floor in a mudroom. I think it's a bad choice for both reasons.

Jaz


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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

JazMan said:


> I think that product would be likely to develop cracks within a few years due to, as the manufacturer would say, inappropriate subfloor. A single 3/4" subfloor over basic framing construction at 16" oc is not going to be enough. I'd like to read the specs they recommend though.
> 
> In general though, natural stone tiles needs to meet L720 deflection for both the framing and the subfloor....especially the subfloor, AND always needs a double layer of subfloor that totals 1 1/4", such as 2x 5/8".
> 
> ...


In a typical 5' (59" after drywall) wide bathroom Why do tile guys lay tile (4) full tiles then (2) 5-1/4" tiles along each wall? Why not (3) full and (2) 11-1/4" tiles along the walls?


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

BIG Johnson said:


> That'd be my guess if it's rated for floors. Probably supposed to mimic pavers. Not my taste but it's also not my house.
> 
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/fc/de/5efcdea0991438f5d1bb3231848d3c3f.jpg




I love it!!! Looks early American/colonial. I think bricks were also commonly used in the kitchens then (much more likely to withstand wear and tear in a busy wet area than wood). 

What was used to make the bricks glossy/shiny?


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

The finish can be either a penetrating dealer or topcoat dealer which gives it a shiner look. Btw- the product says it is similar to ceramic not natural stone, so what would the deflection rating be for subfloors for ceramic tile?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

If you want it to look like the pic we saw, you need to use a topical finish, that is not penetrating sealer. 

I am not sure why you don't wanna share the specs, but "similar" to ceramic does not make it ceramic. 

Jaz


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

I would look more into ceramic tile that looks like brick. Since you are going for glossy finish it's going to look identical to ceramic tile. The bragging rights of real brick are not worth negatives to me i wouldnt install it for a customer.

FYI. . With a standard exterior door You can only install 1" of flooring before weather striping rubs. And forget about a door mat unless you want to raise door.


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## Druidia (Oct 9, 2011)

Really, lots of negatives? I've read through posts of many people in other forums. They've had their real brick floors (in kitchens, even) for many years/decades and they still look fantastic. Reading through their maintenance routines, it doesn't look all that hard to keep a brick floor looking good. Most of them used brick pavers (not the thick bricks used for walls) although the people who live in century (or older) houses probably have full brick floors.

It's very interesting. Lots of different techniques in filling the spaces between tiles and what sealer/finish to use.


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## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

I might not trying to hide the specs. But I have not seen the specs and have yet to contact them. My point is, this brick is not natural stone. It doesn't weigh as much therefore I would assume doesn't require the same as travertine or the like. I don't care if you don't like the look, I'm asking about the subfloor. Currently we have carpet in our mudroom...it's been glued to a 1/2" hardboard so with our 3/4" plywood subfloor I'm at 1.25" but don't have near enough room to leave it all and install another 1.25 of flooring. 

I mean how do people retrofit anything in homes that aren't brand new? It can't be that hard. If I tear up the carpet/1/2" board lay 1/2" cement board I would be fine but some say there's not a difference between 1/2" and 1/4" for the flooring. If not I'd rather use 1/4". Thoughts ?


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