# white cabinets!! but what paint brand?



## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

Going to tackle this project soon and wife wants that white kitchen cabinets! But I am stuck and don't know whats the best paint to use. I plan on using a brush and roller to paint these cabinets. So far the paints that we looking at are Kelly Moore Dura-poxy and PPG breakthrough in satin. 

what you all think?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Both are good options. Durapoxy is a lot easier to work with. Breakthrough has been reformulated, and isnt as good as it used to be, so I'd go with durapoxy if i were you.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I am partial to Benjamin Moore. It is a good quality paint that applies easily and finishes nicely with either brush or roller.

One of the main secrets to a good finish is good surface preparation. When painting kitchen cabinets I would sand them throughly and use a primer sealer. I would then finish with a latex enamel in satin. Gloss enamel looks to commercial IMO.


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

that was a quick reply!! Thanks. Do you think I will need a latex extender like M-1 or XIM to try to avoid brush marks or those roller ripples?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

I usually use a little. I do mean a LITTLE. XIM goes a long way.

BM is vrey good paint. I do know that both durapoxy and breakthough will both stick without a primer.

But, on the subject of surface prep... were these cabinets previously painted, or stained and varnished? If there stained and varnished, you should prime them with BIN. If they were painted, even in oil, a good clean and sand is all it will take for either durapoxy or breakthrough.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I'm partial to SWP's ProClassic waterborne enamel. What type of finish is currently on the cabinets? If it's an oil base finish you'll need to scuff sand and apply the appropriate primer - I prefer either an oil base or pigmented shellac primer as there is no worry about how well they will adhere to the underlying finish.

Flood's Floetrol and the other extenders do a good job of helping latex coatings level out. They do so by slowing down the set up time .... which can also be a curse if there are panels/corners that are prone to run.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Dont use floetrol with breakthrough. XIM only. but it will make it prone to run and sag.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Do lots of reading on here. It's quite a process painting cabinets and doors. Lots of sanding, cleaning, priming, etc. goes into them before you can even think about the topcoats. Today's waterborne paints have a steep learning curve. These paints aren't your grandfather's paints, that's for sure.


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Thats why Im recomending Durapoxy. It sticks to old oil, its hard as a rock, and it applies just like a normal latex. It may not look quite as good as some of these other ones, but the ease of use is a high selling point.


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

woodco said:


> Thats why Im recomending Durapoxy. It sticks to old oil, its hard as a rock, and it applies just like a normal latex. It may not look quite as good as some of these other ones, but the ease of use is a high selling point.


Oh boy as I was about to seal the deal on durapoxy you just had to say "it MAY not look GOOD as some of these other ones" scares me! haha!! specially with a picky wife

wish there were more samples online to see with durapoxy as its very limited.

I have those builder grade cabinets. looks like it has a little sheen to it. door look like a plywood and the frame has like MDF/partical board look to it


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

I just meant that it doesnt look like oil. It still looks good. Its just a regular latex. Its not an oil hybrid or anything. Its all about application. You apply it correctly it'll look great. Easier to work with means less chance of screwing it up. 

Also, I said: it wont look QUITE as good as proclassic, or INSLX cabinet coat from Benjamin Moore. INSLX is great stuff, but I've never applied it with a brush and roller. 

Breakthrough will look better, but its thinner and will require more coats, and it will run and sag easier. 

Pro classic is pretty friendly to work with too. You might need a primer under it though. The waterborne alkyd version of it takes a while to cure though.


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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

Is Kelly Bens sister?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Thats what I used to think too. Its actually a very good paint store.


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

woodco said:


> I just meant that it doesnt look like oil. It still looks good. Its just a regular latex. Its not an oil hybrid or anything. Its all about application. You apply it correctly it'll look great. Easier to work with means less chance of screwing it up.
> 
> Also, I said: it wont look QUITE as good as proclassic, or INSLX cabinet coat from Benjamin Moore. INSLX is great stuff, but I've never applied it with a brush and roller.
> 
> ...


 
got you! my kitchen is a busy one and gets pretty greasy! do you think breakthrough can handle that?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Yeah. You need to make sure they are VERY clean, and rinsed thoroughly, whatever it is you put on them. Use full strength industrial degreaser. ALL the grease needs to be gone before you paint.


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

sorry I wasn't clear. If I was to apply breakthrough on my cabinet is it durable enough for a busy kitchen with 2 kiddos and gets pretty greasy? easy clean up?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

You were clear, and I said yes. The old formula was for sure. Im sure the new formula will be fine too, its not as good as it was a year ago though, thats for sure.

I was reiterating that you need to clean the snot out of them before you paint.


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## XC Painter (Jun 10, 2017)

Durapoxy can look just as good as other brands. I used it on my cabinets with excellent results but I did spray primer and finish coats.
Want to see Durapoxy? Check out my instagram feed where I have shots of an interior millpack I painted. @xc_painter


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

XC Painter said:


> Durapoxy can look just as good as other brands. I used it on my cabinets with excellent results but I did spray primer and finish coats.
> Want to see Durapoxy? Check out my instagram feed where I have shots of an interior millpack I painted. @xc_painter


and thats in satin right? looks nice to me!! but then it was sprayed. wonder if I should invest in a homeright HVLP sprayer and be brave enough to spray...


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## XC Painter (Jun 10, 2017)

diypnw said:


> and thats in satin right? looks nice to me!! but then it was sprayed. wonder if I should invest in a homeright HVLP sprayer and be brave enough to spray...


Yep that is satin. Spraying is the way to go on cabinets, but that opens up a can of worms when it comes to achieving a nice finish. Painting is easy but there's a lot of aspects of it that comes with experience only. 

I mean you certainly can learn to spray cabinets but there's a lot that can go wrong, or just not go as planned. Like if you spray in a garage just make sure to cover the entire floor with floor paper or drop cloths and plastic off everything in the garage that you don't want paint dust to get on. 

Hvlp is not really recommended and not needed for that type of products. An airless pump will work wonderfully for acrylic, or waterborne paint. You can get a relatively inexpensive airless pump and just use a nice new 410 tip to spray.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

You could also rent an airless. I'm reluctant to recommend spraying to someone without spray experience as there is a learning curve. Some folks catch on quicker than others.


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## AmericanPainter (Dec 5, 2017)

Pro Classic works well.


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## AmericanPainter (Dec 5, 2017)

diypnw said:


> Going to tackle this project soon and wife wants that white kitchen cabinets! But I am stuck and don't know whats the best paint to use. I plan on using a brush and roller to paint these cabinets. So far the paints that we looking at are Kelly Moore Dura-poxy and PPG breakthrough in satin.
> 
> what you all think?


Breakthrough is a great option. I would also suggest using shellac as a undercoater.


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## AmericanPainter (Dec 5, 2017)

diypnw said:


> sorry I wasn't clear. If I was to apply breakthrough on my cabinet is it durable enough for a busy kitchen with 2 kiddos and gets pretty greasy? easy clean up?


Yes its durable. Another option as I am a Sherwin Williams guy is to use Emerald urethane


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## AmericanPainter (Dec 5, 2017)

woodco said:


> I usually use a little. I do mean a LITTLE. XIM goes a long way.
> 
> BM is vrey good paint. I do know that both durapoxy and breakthough will both stick without a primer.
> 
> But, on the subject of surface prep... were these cabinets previously painted, or stained and varnished? If there stained and varnished, you should prime them with BIN. If they were painted, even in oil, a good clean and sand is all it will take for either durapoxy or breakthrough.


Sand as well with a good wipe down!


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

@AmericanPainter, did you get an early Christmas gift? A new computer perhaps......


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## AmericanPainter (Dec 5, 2017)

Gymschu said:


> @AmericanPainter, did you get an early Christmas gift? A new computer perhaps......


LOL. No I just joined and saw all these interesting topics.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

AmericanPainter said:


> Yes its durable. Another option as I am a Sherwin Williams guy is to use Emerald urethane


The SW emerald urethane was recommended at my local SW store. We found a color we like also. I'm currently BIN priming the doors. Any special tips on using this? I have wanted a spray gun forever, but I'm partial to the talk above about not practicing on something so high visibility, so probably going to forgo, and stick with brushes and rollers.

We're going fairly dark, so I expect I can get away with two coats. The guy said I don't need to seal it afterward with any sort of a top layer. This stuff is $90/gallon, but I honestly don't care about the cost; with all the hours spent on the project I am not at all motivated to save a few bucks on different paints.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

IMO BIN applies pretty much like any other coating although it does dry a lot quicker. 
The SWP told you right, enamels don't need a clear coat over them. Some do so anyway but it doesn't really accomplish anything other than complicate touch ups.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

mark sr said:


> IMO BIN applies pretty much like any other coating although it does dry a lot quicker.
> The SWP told you right, enamels don't need a clear coat over them. Some do so anyway but it doesn't really accomplish anything other than complicate touch ups.


I just read this Emerald urethane trim paint I was planning on using seems to be a no-no over shellac (polyurethane not good over it). Guess I will need something like ProClassic acrylic or an alkyde paint (?).

Sherwin has a proclassic water based alkyde-acrylic https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/proclassic-interior-waterbased-acrylicalkyd


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Thats a new one for me... Proclassic is good stuff too. Make them scrooges at Sherwin give you a discount. BTW, 90 bucks a gallon is CRAP. They only charge me 55, and they dont even give me good prices. Tell them to run it under some paint company's account, and use their discount.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Skoorb said:


> I just read this Emerald urethane trim paint I was planning on using seems to be a no-no over shellac (polyurethane not good over it). Guess I will need something like ProClassic acrylic or an alkyde paint (?).
> 
> Sherwin has a proclassic water based alkyde-acrylic https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/proclassic-interior-waterbased-acrylicalkyd


 
Ben Moore makes a
better and most likely less expensive one

https://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us...product-catalog/wsip/waterborne-satin-impervo


I used this on my own kitchen cabinets about 5 years ago and they are holding up very well


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Narrowed down to (all water based):

Alkyde (benjamin moore) or alkyde/acrylic (sherwin williams)
100% acrylic
or SW Emerald Urethane

I bet the SW and BM products are basically the same. Which one is likely to stick better to BIN? I did ask SW customer service about their Emerald Urethane and they said between the two proclassic above and their emerald urethane, that on sherwin williams shellac primer (they don't want to commit to anything on other brands and I assume sherwin's shellac is similar to Zinsser's) that "Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel would be the best product we offer for your application."

Rustoleum's web site claims "any top coat" for zinsser BIN.

In all y'all's experience, does pretty much anything stick to BIN?


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I've never had any issues with any coating not adhering to BIN.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

me either^^


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## diypnw (Nov 5, 2017)

Skoorb said:


> Narrowed down to (all water based):
> 
> Alkyde (benjamin moore) or alkyde/acrylic (sherwin williams)
> 100% acrylic
> ...


 
how bout PPG breakthrough?? give that a shot and let me know!  would love to get an update with that paint as I plan on using it this spring or whenever it gets warmer here in seattle!


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Ive used breakthrough over BIN.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Committed to the SW Emerald Urethane. Picked it up last night.

Just for fun, I've been testing some paints on a piece of cabinet. I like to fiddle with different products.

Top two circles are Sherwin Williams Extreme Bond Primer painted on a few days ago. The middle two circles are Zinsser BIN painted on a few days ago. Ignore the small yellow and the very bottom circle (latex paints painted on to see how easily they peeled off).

Extreme Bond primer only: peels readily. Additional days seem not to have toughened it up after the first overnight. It's like a tougher scratch-off ticket.

BIN primer only: locks up tight. It can be scratched off but takes work. Does not peel. Night and day difference.

Extreme Bond + Emerald Urethane: Peels readily. 
BIN + Emerald Urethane: The top coat is somewhat peely somewhat requires scratching to remove
BIN + Extreme Bond on the BIN + Urethane: Locks up surprisingly well! The Extreme bond peels off the cabinet when applied alone, but when it's applied to the BIN it needs to be forcefully scratched. It's like a completely different paint now. Also, the Urethane behaves the same way on top of the Extreme Bond--no longer peels, and must be scratched--and, since the extreme bond isn't peeling away easily because it's on the BIN, this ends up being an overall really tough triple layer. Basically BIN sticks to cabinet the best, but topcoat sticks to extreme bond primer the best, so with extreme bond in the middle I get the best of both worlds.

*Big caveat*: The urethane is still comparatively soft. It's been drying a while but I know these things are supposed to tough up more as time goes on. 

*Big caveat 2*: I don't plan on taking a flat head screwdriver to my completed cabinets, so I have no reason to think that the topcoat, once it dries harder, will not behave fine on the BIN. This test may be completely irrelevant to real world use.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Solvent based coatings usually get hard/cured within 72 hrs but latex coatings can take a week or more. Multiple coats often make the curing process take a little longer.

I wouldn't be overly concerned that fresh paint can be scratched off with effort although I do believe in using a solvent based primer over oil base enamel/poly before switching to latex!


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Cabs almost done now. Frames all complete, just doing final coat on a few doors.

I like how they look and I've done a good job avoiding drips and sag and all that, it wasn't a problem.

I am disappointed (bordering on very) with the robustness of the paint. I've been hanging the doors for weeks and I just took my oldest one a moment ago (painted 3 weeks ago) and the topcoat still comes off it way, way too easily. I'm also already chasing around little scraped off sections on the frames themselves.

Recall this is sherwin Emerald Urethane-alkyd top coat on pigmented zinsser bin shellac primer. I even got communication from zinsser when I referenced this paint about how their primer will take pretty much any topcoat. Also sherwin when I asked they said they can't recommend their paint with other brands, so I said okay if I used sherwin shellac primer what's your best topcoat (I assume it's similar to BIN, but not sure) and they said the emerald urethane. The stuff is just damned soft on this BIN, though.

My original concern was that the top coat just wouldn't adhere well to the BIN and that is exactly what I'm finding. 99% of the chips/scrapes bring me down to white; the BIN is adhering very well. My last few doors I did the bin and then another coat of primer with the sherwin extreme bond. The most recent of those I did last night, and it's already holding up better (only 8 hours old) than a three week old door. Reason being the extreme bond primer hooks up to the BIN better than the top coat, and the topcoat hooks up well to the extreme bond. 

If I had to do this again I would probably use the extreme bond on top of the bin everywhere and I would also have tinted all my primers.

Definitely concerned that once I get the hardware back peoples fingers/nails are going to constantly abrade the area around the handles. If that happens I'll have to sand down to wood on each door just around the outside edges and redo those bits with the multi-layered approach or something.

Another thing I learned at least in my case is that the sanding was basically a waste of time. I did it for the first bunch of doors but the later stages of the kitchen I didn't. With a cleaned surface the BIN adheres so well I couldn't see a point to it, and I did scrape testing.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I've never had any issues with paint adhering to any pigmented shellac including BIN. Did you scuff sand the BIN before applying the paint?


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

mark sr said:


> I've never had any issues with paint adhering to any pigmented shellac including BIN. Did you scuff sand the BIN before applying the paint?


Some I sanded, some I didn't; I can't honestly discern a difference in their resiliency to scraping whether I sanded or didn't.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

STIX or Xim UMA would have been the primer of choice. PPG breakthrough or CabinetCoat could have been applied directly over that with a light scuff sand.

My choice would have been to use Stix and top coat with Advance.


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## kerryman71 (Feb 26, 2017)

I agree with coco, Insl-X Stix primer with Ben Moore Advance for a top coat. 

Prep is huge. Thorough cleaning, sanding, rinsing etc. before you even start to apply product. 

John


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

kerryman71 said:


> I agree with coco, Insl-X Stix primer with Ben Moore Advance for a top coat.
> 
> *Prep is huge. Thorough cleaning, sanding, rinsing etc. before you even start to apply product. *
> 
> John


Hop over to PT and a few recent threads where professional's didn't do the correct prep. End up costing 3x to fix bad prep and pissed off HO's.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

That’s odd. Shellac is generally considered a good barrier coat for just about any coating. If your top coat isn’t adhering to it, I would suspect the problem in in the top coat itself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kerryman71 (Feb 26, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Hop over to PT and a few recent threads where professional's didn't do the correct prep. End up costing 3x to fix bad prep and pissed off HO's.


I actually am over there, same username. I prep so much, and just when I think I've prepped enough, I do some more. Nothing too crazy that will add insane costs to the job, but enough that when I apply product I don't have to lay awake at night wondering if I did enough, ha ha. 

I fully explain the process to customers, most of whom like the fact that I'm thorough. I tell them why and they agree that yes, once I leave, they don't want me back unless it's for a totally different job they have for me. Why take a chance?

John


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> That’s odd. Shellac is generally considered a good barrier coat for just about any coating. If your top coat isn’t adhering to it, I would suspect the problem in in the top coat itself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be fair I don't know what a reasonable level of adhesion is. It's not like this is peeling off and flaking and just dropping off the primer. I can handle it, I can rub it and wipe it down with cloth. It's just really "soft". They had a piece of scrap at sherwin with one coat of this urethane and it was rock hard, barely took a mark when scratched with finger nail. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect it to be any harder months from now (but who knows). 

The BIN has worked great to stick to the cabinet (way better than the extreme bond water primer did), it really has adhered very well. Had I tinted it to begin with I wouldn't even notice the top coat is vulnerable. The molding and large areas will be fine anyway because they are never rubbed. If I have to redo the frames (removing paint hopefully wouldn't be too hard if that ends up happening) it won't be the end of the world, and hopefully I can train people to use the handles as much as possible :biggrin2:


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Doors are all up now, hardware installed. I'm very pleased with the look. Not smooth like it was sprayed, but it came out well.

As I come up on a month on some of the earlier paints, I got some filth on one of the cabinets and wiping around the sharp points around molding brought me down to primer. Overall, I would never use this combination of paints again. I know people do well with paints over the bin, but this emerald urethane is just very soft over it and not a tough surface at all. 

Considering a coat of poly over everything but I'll need to test on the back of a door first. That could also make touching up very tough long term.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

Skoorb said:


> Doors are all up now, hardware installed. I'm very pleased with the look. Not smooth like it was sprayed, but it came out well.
> 
> As I come up on a month on some of the earlier paints, I got some filth on one of the cabinets and wiping around the sharp points around molding brought me down to primer. Overall, I would never use this combination of paints again. I know people do well with paints over the bin, but this *emerald urethane* is just very soft over it and not a tough surface at all.
> 
> Considering a coat of poly over everything but I'll need to test on the back of a door first. That could also make touching up very tough long term.


I don't care for anything SW but it is an alkyd so give it 30 days to cure before judging hardness.

Stix+advance or CC better choice IMO.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I don't care for anything SW but it is an alkyd so give it 30 days to cure before judging hardness.
> 
> Stix+advance or CC better choice IMO.


Almost two years later I can give a review of performance.

Cabinets have overall held up well. I do get down to either primer or bare wood on certain high wear spots (such as certain edges where dishes hit over and over, etc.), but every six months I take a half hour and a small brush to just correct those. With that done, it looks like new. And before it's done nobody else but me would really notice.

Stands up just fine to wiping, even aggressively, without leaving paint on a piece of paper towel.


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## kerryman71 (Feb 26, 2017)

Thanks for the update.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

Skoorb said:


> Almost two years later I can give a review of performance.
> 
> Cabinets have overall held up well. I do get down to either primer or bare wood on certain high wear spots (such as certain edges where dishes hit over and over, etc.), but every six months I take a half hour and a small brush to just correct those. With that done, it looks like new. And before it's done nobody else but me would really notice.
> 
> Stands up just fine to wiping, even aggressively, without leaving paint on a piece of paper towel.



Sounds like normal wear/tear for paint grade stuff. Being able to touch up is one of the benefits of paint grade over lacquers and one reason not to clear coat over paint.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

Yep it worked out enough that despite my initial comment that "Overall, I would never use this combination of paints again.", I did, in fact, do it again this year on a bathroom vanity. Exact same combination of products


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## avgjoeblack (Jul 27, 2017)

Skoorb said:


> Yep it worked out enough that despite my initial comment that "Overall, I would never use this combination of paints again.", I did, in fact, do it again this year on a bathroom vanity. Exact same combination of products



Very nice. Now, you said, there wasn't really a need to sand it since you were using BIN primer? 



I'm ready to do mines.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

While BIN has great adhesion properties it's still a good idea to sand.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

avgjoeblack said:


> Very nice. Now, you said, there wasn't really a need to sand it since you were using BIN primer?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm ready to do mines.


The BIN adheres like a mother. Ideally you'd scuff up the surfaces you're putting it on. I may have scuffed them lightly and I did definitely clean them thoroughly first. I imagine that sanding the bin itself after it dries before the top coat would be good but I didn't do much of that.

The best way to have a nice looking job is when using the brush around all the trim go multiple light coats because that's the only way to ensure you don't end up with excessive clumping/dripping, etc. which is the hallmark of a sloppy job  For the roller I used a 6" mini roller (whichever brand has the yellow and blue packaging at lowes).

I also kept the doors off the cabinets for a few weeks to help harden up before putting back into service. I did replace the handles and if you go that route, remote the old knobs, fill the holes with minwax two part wood filler (only two part--don't bother with one-part wood filler). You can get this at lowes, then sand flat and you can add new hardware.

Frankly I found the entire job fairly satisfying, not terribly difficult. Take your time, realize it's going to turn out fine and listen to music. Good luck!


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