# Leak from roof or brick?



## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

The house is in St. Louis and is brick. I'm hunting for the cause of the water damage to the walls inside the front door. It's either from the gaps in the brick or from the roof or both. The interior water damage is slowly developing and has bubbled the plaster walls in trails and around the door. There are small gaps in the exterior tuckpointing but since the brick never get very wet I'm suspecting the junction of the pitches of roof since it is directly above the water damage. I've inspected the attic and haven't found any leaks. The wooden soffit seems unusually water damaged but it's probably original.
My questions are:
1) What's a good procedure to locate the source of this leak.
2) How do I fix the exterior leak?
3) Do I patch the inside wall with plaster?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

In your first pic, wow, what a mess. That bit of gutter (above) would seem to have no purpose! I'll let the roofing experts comment, but, I'm gonna take a stab at it and say you have some serious chimney flashing problems.......I see step flashing, but no counter flashing. With that peak above the door, it creates a "water catcher" by the chimney, which, if it isn't flashed correctly is allowing all kinds of water into the house.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Since you have to ask what's wrong, I'd suggest you hire a roofer to come fix this for you.
The flashing, the shingles, and I'd bet some of the sheathing is all going to have to be removed and replaced in this area. It was all done wrong.
Someones also going to have to tuck point that chimmney, there's some missing morter.
What is that piece of tape looking stuff sticking out?


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

What a cluster!

If you find someone that says they can flash a chimney, ask to see some of their previous work. And do some searching on how to flash a chimney first.

It's difficult to make a bad design good.

If some contractors have their caulk gun in their hand when they come to your door, think about this before you hire them. Same for guys bearing "flashing tape".

Did you say where the leak is inside? Is it on the street sign of the door or the other side?


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Flashing chimneys is almost, in my opinion, an art. If done properly the flashing will outlast the roof. You need a saddle on the upper side to direct water away from the chimney as well. See the link below.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rumford.com/chimneys/images/flashing.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rumford.com/chimneys/flashing.html&h=500&w=491&sz=60&tbnid=WNOL7L2WqJ3HNM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=128&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dchimney%2Bflashing%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=chimney+flashing&hl=en&usg=__nnUbgVat0Nl_trvMlkduXmJgBno=&sa=X&ei=-JYiT-vGPOm80AGunqC1CA&ved=0CBkQ9QEwAg

One way to start is with a hose. Flow water on it and work your way up while someone inside looks for leakage. The fix will be determined by what you find leaking. Judging by the pictures, you'll find a lot of things leaking. All of the flashing details are a mess. As far as fixing the plaster, if it isn't deteriorated too badly, it can be patched with more plaster. If this has been going on for any length of time, you may need to cut some of it out and look for structural damage. Start by fixing the roof.


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## J. Trafford (Jan 21, 2012)

*roofer here*

All of the before mentioned are absolutely correct. I have seen things done on roofs so badly it makes me sick. 

What is needed behind the chimney is called a "cricket". Its actually a small little pitched roof member added to the roof behind the chimney to "kick" the water and snow and ice off. 

The flashing needs to be redone and the gutters in this area redone and the entire area of roofing around the chimney should be removed in order to properly execute this involved repair. 

It is an art form to do this. Under no circumstances should caulking be used. It just does not last and will only add to messiness continuing. 

Get a good reputable roofer knowledgeable in slate and shingle systems as well as using copper flashing. One can of course use lead flashing but I would suggest leaded copper. 

Good Luck!


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. The inside water damage is on both the door side of the wall and the south facing wall under the satellite dish although one leak appears to transverse around the corner. The chimney did leak a year ago and was patched up by a hack but it doesn't leak anymore...or at least the trails of plaster bubbling don't source from the chimney area. That area was damaged directly on the ceiling and has shown no change. Now the damage is on the other side of the roof. I can't get better pictures because the tree is right in the way. 
The only think I could do is make sure there are no obvious gaps in the shingles or gutter that's causing the leaks. The owner has tons of $ to spend on this repair. What's a ballpark estimate? I'm looking for someone to work on this in south St. Louis and you've given me some good advice.


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

*Wasted $1300*

We found a receipt today for $1300 of "spot tuckpointing" on the chimney from a little over 1 year ago. $1300 and the chimney immediately leaked and you can see for yourself that the tuckpointing is a disaster. I really wonder what they did for $1300 and how much would it take for them to actually fix a problem. I guess if you pay $5k or $10k they can afford to hire someone who knows what they are doing but do you spend 10% of the value of the house to fix a leak in the chimney? It's like buying a $900 steering wheel for your car. Service like that makes me come to forums like this.


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## J. Trafford (Jan 21, 2012)

It is work like that, and experiences like that that home owners suffer that make it hard, so hard for the honest worker to be trusted. It makes it hard
to get work. The home owner has been "turned off" or is very skeptical of all who will bid on the work now. 

Tuck pointing must be carefully done with the correct mortar. Soft or hard, the joints should be ground out with a grinder w/ vacuum attachment in order to get depth to the fresh mortar. 

An acid wash before you point, and after will render the best results..... NO WINDOWS! near this acid mix, get a pro mason!


Good Luck!


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

*caulking*

For the time being we decided a basic fix would have to work. The leak itself was small and the roofer who came over could immediately see the







roofing tar that had been used to fill the area against the brick right by that flashing that had come detached was all cracked. Basically, the leaking itself was caused by a simple decay of the tar. Yes, the area itself is not perfect but to fix the leak wasn't a big job in the opinion of the roofer. It was $175 which is a bit high for 40 minutes of caulking but it's guaranteed.
I'll repaint the inside and hope it lasts.
cheers


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

"Yes, the area itself is not perfect but to fix the leak wasn't a big job in the opinion of the roofer. It was $175 which is a bit high for 40 minutes of caulking but it's guaranteed.
I'll repaint the inside and hope it lasts." 
Not going to happen. The 1st. pic shows it was never flashed. It's still not fixed. That's also obvious by the lack of any flashing work by the door, to that chimney.:furious:
More water is coming in from the valley than the gutter anyway. A crew of slobs did that make-believe roof. :furious:


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

OMG! I am a painter, not a roofer, but I gotta say that's the worst repair job I have ever seen! That slopped on caulking will last maybe til the end of summer. WOW! I am speechless.


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

Those aren't encouraging comments but on the brighter side of things you could change careers and make $250 an hour doing horrible roof repairs in St. Louis.


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

*how to patch the plaster*

I know the opinion is that this leak isn't fixed but I'm going to move forward like it is. The problem is that there is still moisture trapped in the walls. I scraped all the loose plaster and paint off and then applied kilz2 latex sealer directly to the exposed plaster. I also applied a light skim coat of ready mix compound to some of the deeper craters. The compound mostly stuck but in one spot it immediatey bubbled up. So then I scraped it off and applied the kilz2 primer to the exposed plaster there. THere are still some bubbles forming on that one location.
I'm thinking that there is still moisture in the walls that can't go through the brick and tuckpointing so is trying to come into the house through the plaster.
I used the kilz to prime two other locations in the house that had previous water damage and both the kilz and the joint compound were solid in those locations. It's only in this area around the door that I'm seeing bubbles.
So, assuming there isn't a leak and this is residual moisture making its way out of the wall, should I scrape it down to bare plaster again and take a blow dryer to it? Should I leave it alone for a few seasons since any paint I put on it will bubble?
Or should I apply a test coat of paint so I can determine where the problem areas are?
How would you prepare the old plaster?
I planned on rolling thined out joint compound that was mixed with the paint color to try to get the splatter knockdown texture effect but now I'm thinking all that effort will be for naught so I should just prime it, patch it and paint it. But in what order?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i wouldn't put too much effort fixing the inside just yet:no:

i love how your entrance way looks by the way


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

You think the walls are full of moisture? Or the next rain will cause a leak? OR both?
(Sorry for the size of the pics, no matter how I resize them they always post as gigantic.)
here are some pics after I skimmed some ready mix joint compound on there and then scraped the compound off and primed it and then scraped the primer off. The plaster is crumbling into a fine powder and two areas are stained. But are they stained by a leak or by the moisture in the joint compound?








It's been raining lately but the leak was never so obvious that I could see it. It's brick and only bubbling paint and crumbling plaster gave me any clue there was a leak. In fact, the paint never felt wet.








But this joint compound isn't drying completely after 10 days so I've decided to scrape off all the wet compound and leave it exposed. If there is no leak then it will dry out eventually and if there is a leak then those areas will show signs of moisture.








I accept that it is too soon to repair anything on that wall but there's never a dry heat in St. Louis. It's always humid.
Now I've taken it down to the plaster again and sanded it. Would mineral spirits clean the surface?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

One of the problems with damp walls is that they are colder than the dry areas and more likely to attract condensation. Also if any hygroscopic salts have contaminated the plaster they will bring even more damp from the air.
What we usually do with damp solid brick walls is to hack of the plaster and allow the brickwork to dry out. The wall is then replastered with 3/1 sand/OPC mix and added salt retarder/waterproofer.
Hyrgroscopic salts are quite common in plaster around damp chimneys. They can attract condensation at a relatively low R/H.


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

Can I say that anyone who has old plaster walls really needs to make sure their roofs don't leak because fixing the leak is only the beginning of the problems. The plaster is no longer damp but everything I do ends up with all the paint peeling off the plaster in big sheets. Including when I do nothing and the paint I never touched is sloughing off. The Joint compound definitely didn't dry even though it hasn't rained here in weeks. But the plaster itself is basically solid except it forms a thin film of crumbling powder on it every day. So whatever water damage happened is still causing problems. What I have done to prepare the surface isn't working. I've sanded it, wiped it down and put joint compound on it. In a few spots I have put latex Killz and it appears that the stainblocker has dried completely and is not bubbling.
I am at the point that after over a month waiting for the plaster to finish drying out that I'm going to scrape all the paint off that entire corner since it isn't adhering anymore to it anyway and then sand it and clean it and let it dry all summer until it can accept only Killz stainblocker. And when it can do that then I can paint it. I can see why one recommendation is to tear out the plaster and then replaster it because if you think you can fix water damaged plaster in one day then replacing the plaster is the only way that will happen.
I'm going to be patient and scrape all the paint off and wait for the plaster to stop developing that crumbly film.
Part of my desire to do this mysef is because I fully expect a painter to come in and charge me to paint the plaster and it will look good for a day and then three days later it's all going to fall off and that will begin a series of events where I try to get this fixed but I don't think it _can_ be fixed in one visit. If I want to paint this plaster then it has to totally dry out and that looks to be taking three months.
furthermore, there's no need for joint compound since the texture is how the plaster turned out. The only cracks have been patched and for some reason they didn't bubble up and the paint didn't peel and the joint compoud all dried up like rock. But everywhere else is a train wreck. I say this to chronicle my trials and maybe help someone in the future.











Here you can see a few white spots of Killz that have dried well. But all the old paint is falling off.


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

That roofline needs to be torn up completely. ALL exterior damage (IE roof paper, sheeting) should be replace. Next, the entire rooflline needs to be flashed, shingled and then tarred. Thats your fix dont let anyone else tell you other wise. Dont put a bandaid on a knife wound. I would estimate this at about 4-700 dollar repair with material (done right first time)


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## oggy bleacher (May 3, 2011)

*painted*

I'm sure the roof needs work and I'm thankful for the advice when that time comes. The walls haven't leaked yet but we'll see next winter if it's still waterproof. As for fixing and painting the plaster walls it was a difficult process because the plaster wouldn't accept primer or paint for three months. Finally, I scraped off every bit of old paint and dug into the plaster. I didn't use a wire brush but I think that would've been a good tool to remove all the damaged plaster. That's all I can recommend but I'm no expert. Remove all the paint, even paint that looks like it has bonded with the plaster. Any new primer that was put over the old paint bubbled up and stained the primer brown.

Unless you want to start over by removing all the plaster then I would say the first thing is to remove all the paint and any plaster that can be taken off. The texture on my wall is so rough that I didn't need any joint compound in the first place. I thought it might help smooth out the lip between 80 years of paint (like 10 layers of paint) and bare plaster but the joint compound never dried so the primer never stayed on the joint compound and I had to scrape it all off anyway. This was from accumulated moisture trapped in the wall so it wasn't a quick fix. 

Scrape all the paint off, any plaster, let it dry out for a month or two and then prime it in spots and see if the primer dries. Then prime the whole thing and see if it dries or bubbles. Then finally paint it all. The joint compound never dried in my case but technically that's a solution for the noticable lips in the paint. I don't think fixing water damaged plaster is something that can be done in a day or two. This plaster took three months to dry and it was totally stripped bare.

Even right now, at the very bottom of the wall by the floor molding at a place where I never dug in with the scraper I can see the primer and paint bubbling up. Everything else looks good where I was painting on bare plaster but anywhere the old plaster was still crumbling away now is bubbling up and probably won't last the summer. But the majority is done because it was getting annoying having a drop cloth in the entranceway for three months.


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