# Neutral problem, not sure what to do now



## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

I seem to have a problem with a bad neutral connection and I'm not sure how to proceed. I read previous posts with similar issues but they aren't quite the same situation.

Starting 3 days ago, when any major appliance comes on, all lights in the house either brighten or dim. In some situations (such as the boiler or refrigerator, presumably because of the initial surge) the lights return to normal after a second. In other cases, such as a blow dryer or electric kettle (steady draw), the lights remain brighter or dimmer until the appliance shuts off. I _think_ the pattern is that lights dim if they're on the same circuit as the appliance, while lights on other circuits brighten.

I know that the dimming on the same line is normal. But this situation is new. I've lived here 24 years, and the brightening and "excessive" dimming just started 3 days ago.

I called the electric company and their guys spent a couple hours checking everything from the pole to the meter. They even replaced the ground rod. It's all good to the house, they say, so the problem is on my side.

I called my electrician but he can't get here until next Tuesday. With the holiday and the weekend the timing is tough for him.

I tried to narrow the problem by turning off one circuit at a time and checking for the brightening/dimming effect with it off individually. I figured if I could identify the circuit I could check the neutral connections all along it. However I went through every circuit, and the effect always occurred. This confuses me greatly. I'd have thought that if I shut down the circuit with the bad neutral, the rest of them would work normally. That didn't happen.

The guy from the power company said it's not dangerous. I think he said there was an 8 volt differential when he was metering while I reproduced the problem, though I'm not sure what that means. He did say to call them back if the dim/bright effect increased significantly. 

Nothing I'm aware of changed just prior to this occurring. A month ago I replaced an overhead fixture, two days later my electrician replaced the main circuit box. This problem didn't occur during the 4 weeks until now.

I don't know what, if anything, to do. Is there any other way I can locate the problem? Do I just wait for my electrician? Is there really not any danger in the 4 days it'll take for him to come?

Thanks for any advice.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> I seem to have a problem with a bad neutral connection and I'm not sure how to proceed. I read previous posts with similar issues but they aren't quite the same situation.
> 
> Starting 3 days ago, when any major appliance comes on, all lights in the house either brighten or dim. In some situations (such as the boiler or refrigerator, presumably because of the initial surge) the lights return to normal after a second. In other cases, such as a blow dryer or electric kettle (steady draw), the lights remain brighter or dimmer until the appliance shuts off. I _think_ the pattern is that lights dim if they're on the same circuit as the appliance, while lights on other circuits brighten.
> 
> ...


The only responsible answer that I think anyone can give here is to call another electrician that offers after hours service and have them come out. This isn't something that someone without some reasonable level of experience should be trying to deal with.

I am sure there was only a 8V diff when the powerco guy measured it, but that was based on what you were running at the time. 

Bottom line is that it really sounds like a neutral is loose somewhere, but the power co guy is very foolish telling you it is not dangerous. It is dangerous to your electrical equipment (anything that is plugged in) if nothing else, and at worst a fire hazard. 

Please get someone out there now, not next week. 

Jamie


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The problem sounds like it is on the main supply neutral. If it is not on the POCO side then then it is between the meter and the main disconnect. The danger is if the difference goes greater than 8 volts you could damage or destroy electronics. The more power you use from one side of your service compared to the other side the greater the voltage difference will.

I would unplug any electronics that are not UPS protected until you resolve this.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

joed said:


> ...
> I would unplug any electronics that are not UPS protected until you resolve this.


I just ran down and unplugged my 2-week-old $1500 HDTV. I hope there isn't already damage. It seemed fine when we were watching late this afternoon.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

8v is too high. A 3v drop maybe, and the closer you get to the panel the less the drop should be.

This problem is not subtle.

8v at 10A = 80w. If this energy is dissipated in something the size of a wirenut I'd think you'd already have a fire.

With most stuff turned on in the house, looking at the panel with the cover removed with one of those $60 IR meters will probably show you where it is.

Using a spreadsheet, for an 8v difference, with a 6A and 12A unbalanced load, the neutral connection would measure 3/4 Ω resistance (vs. a few milliohms), and 20w would be dissipated in this bad connection. 20w dissipated in a busbar should warm it up some.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Some HDTVs are marked 100-240 volts, and will accept any voltage in this range. You might be lucky.

This is an absolutely classic example of a bad neutral connection. If the POCO measured 8 volts at the meter, that is a bit high, but likely not the problem. Especially if its an overhead feed.

The real problem is very likely between the meter and the panel neutral. Frequently it's a loose connection at the neutral bus. The trouble with this is you're working very close to unfused conductors. A slight screw-up makes a BIG flash. 

Rob 

P.S. A ground rod will have very little effect on this problem.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

micromind said:


> Frequently it's a loose connection at the neutral bus. The trouble with this is you're working very close to unfused conductors. A slight screw-up makes a BIG flash.


And vaporized metal particles flying through the air. This is absolutely NOT something an inexperienced person can do. 

Jamie

"*Warning:* The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious *injury* or *death*."


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

A) Call the power company *again*. It's free and 1/2 the time it is on their side.

B) If it's not on their side, call a good electrician and explain the problem. Ask them to send out an old guy :laughing:





> The guy from the power company said it's not dangerous.


Get that in writing and save the receipt from your TV. 8 volts is too much and can quickly turn to 80 volts.


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## WFO (Nov 5, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> Bottom line is that it really sounds like a neutral is loose somewhere, but the power co guy is very foolish telling you it is not dangerous. It is dangerous to your electrical equipment (anything that is plugged in) if nothing else, and at worst a fire hazard.
> 
> Jamie


Bingo!

We've set up tests in our shop with a variac in the neutral of a 120/240 volt circuit with a light bulb on one side and a space heater on the other. We easily shifted the entire 240 volts (well, minus a volt or two) to the light bulb (which obviously didn't last long).

Neutral problems don't heal, they only get worse. Replacing the ground rod will help only if the circuit has already deteriorated to the point that the ground rod is the main return path to the transformer.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> 8v is too high. A 3v drop maybe, and the closer you get to the panel the less the drop should be.
> 
> This problem is not subtle.
> 
> ...


I gather that IR means infrared, to identify something hot? I'm afraid to touch anything in the box though. I don't have enough knowledge about what's safe and what isn't.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> 8v is too high. A 3v drop maybe, and the closer you get to the panel the less the drop should be.


I should have clarified:
THe 8v they measured was on MY side of the meter, when I turned on a blowdryer to create the problem. The differential at THEIR side of the meter was less than 3v.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> I gather that IR means infrared, to identify something hot?


Yes, and that's the idea: non-contact = safer and much faster than measuring each voltage drop across bad/good connections.
But, go with your gut feeling about how to handle this problem.

For a 3v differential on their side of the meter they'd need 3000A differential current or a bad connection, unless I'm assuming something incorrect. 
The voltage spec for MD is 114v to 126v at the panel, but I don't know of an "imbalance specification."

Seems like your PoCo has their own problems. Maybe they don't want to bite the bullet and want to put off a necessary repair until the first lawsuit is filed.
Possibly it's time to ask your neighbors who are on the same transformer if they are having similar problems.

Get what they say about the health of your electrical system in writing. Even people who are above the law don't like pencil and paper (or recording devices of any kind  ).


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> And vaporized metal particles flying through the air. This is absolutely NOT something an inexperienced person can do.
> 
> Jamie"


I would not attempt it. I wouldn't put my hand in that box to grab the Hope diamond.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

220/221 said:


> A) Call the power company *again*. It's free and 1/2 the time it is on their side.
> 
> B) If it's not on their side, call a good electrician and explain the problem. Ask them to send out an old guy


The main guy who was here yesterday seemed really good. He's around 50 yrs old, worked for the power company for over 20 years. He was here for over 2 hours, maybe closer to 3. He was very thorough -- he explained everything they checked, and from what I can tell it's everything from their pole to the meter.

Perhaps I will call them again but I really doubt this guy missed something.

My electrician is a retired power company guy. He's around 60 yrs old, now working full time on his own. The guy yesterday from the power company knew him well (they worked together a lot of years) and said he was good.



220/221 said:


> Get that in writing and save the receipt from your TV. 8 volts is too much and can quickly turn to 80 volts.


Of course I didn't get anything in writing. The TV has been unplugged since early yesterday evening and won't be back on until this is fixed.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> ...
> Seems like your PoCo has their own problems. Maybe they don't want to bite the bullet and put off a necessary repair.


I could be wrong, but I _really_ had the sense that the guy yesterday was thorough and good. He checked everything -- at the pole, on my roof, at the meter -- he kept me informed at each step, and he's certainly very experienced. I've never been more impressed with a utility worker -- after I came in to tell my wife the situation, I even said how good the guy was. Of course it could be impression rather than reality, but that's what I thought.



Yoyizit said:


> Possibly it's time to ask your neighbors who are on the same transformer if they are having similar problems.


I called the immediate neighbors -- they don't have the problem. Even after asking them to watch particularly for it, they report no symptoms.



Yoyizit said:


> Get what they say about the health of your electrical system in writing. Even people who are above the law don't like pencil and paper.


Of course the guy is long gone so I can't do that now, unless I call and ask for another visit.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow, we sure get alot of fluff around something that is as cut and dried as this. The power company came and determined that the problem is not on their side. Sure, the guy mis-spoke when he said it wasn't dangerous, because it certainly is.

The REAL bottom line: Call an electrician. The neutral is loose at your panel. He will torque it down and be done. If the service conductors are aluminum, ask him to make sure there is an antioxidant paste, such as Noalox, on the wires.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*No quicker help*

Based on my fear from what I'd read here last night, I called my electrician as soon as I thought reasonable this morning to see if I could get him here quicker. Unfortunately he was gone for the day. I left a message conveying urgency but I doubt I'll get him here before Monday.

In the meantime we've unplugged everything non-essential, and we're keeping electrical use to the bare minimum. The only big draw items are the boiler and refrigerator.

Using my cheap digital multimeter, I've measured the differential at two outlets which come from different sides of the panel. The outlets are both near the end of runs, at the far side of the house from the main box.

When nothing is running the difference is about 2 volts. One side is around 119v, the other 121v. I've measured numerous times over several hours and it varies somewhat, from a low of 1v to a high of 4v. That's with nothing significant running.

When there's a draw on one line, the difference increases -- the greater the draw, the bigger the difference. A 60w bulb increases it by 1 volt or so. A blow dryer increases it a lot. I'm not sure how much, because when I saw the meter hit 130v on one side I shut off the dryer. I was afraid that too much of a difference would cause a fire.

When there's a draw on the _other_ line, the difference DEcreases. A 60w bulb brings them both to around 120v. I didn't try the blow dryer on that side because of the previous effect.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> ...
> The REAL bottom line: Call an electrician. The neutral is loose at your panel. He will torque it down and be done. If the service conductors are aluminum, ask him to make sure there is an antioxidant paste, such as Noalox, on the wires.


Okay, I'm heading to the phone book now.

The lines TO the house are aluminum, but the house wiring is copper.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*On the way*

An electrician will be here within the hour.

$200 minimum. Ouch.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> An electrician will be here within the hour.
> 
> $200 minimum. Ouch.


Watch from a safe distance and let us know what he finds.
Jamie


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> An electrician will be here within the hour.
> 
> $200 minimum. Ouch.


It's all relative. That ouch isn't as bad as it could be...


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*Life is strange sometimes*

Five minutes after I arranged for the emergency electrician, right as I finished my previous post here, the guy who did the original work called. He had been on an outside job that they had to stop because of the rain. With a little urging by me he agreed to come this afternoon. I think because he did the previous work that he'll be much cheaper.

I immediately tried calling the emergency guy but went into his voicemail. I left a message and also called his answering service to page him. Hopefully I can cancel before he heads out.

At the moment I've got TWO electricians on the way.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> Five minutes after I arranged for the emergency electrician, right as I finished my previous post here, the guy who did the original work called. He had been on an outside job that they had to stop because of the rain. With a little urging by me he agreed to come this afternoon. I think because he did the previous work that he'll be much cheaper.
> 
> I immediately tried calling the emergency guy but went into his voicemail. I left a message and also called his answering service to page him. Hopefully I can cancel before he heads out.
> 
> At the moment I've got TWO electricians on the way.


Well it wouldn't hurt anything to have someone different look over the first guys work. 

Was there a permit / inspection when he upgraded the service?

Jamie


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> At the moment I've got TWO electricians on the way.


Wait... so, your original electrician didn't think your emergency service call was more important than some other job? That doesn't seem right. For emergencies, I drop anything else that isn't also an emergency.

I sure hope the other guy gets the message. I have had the same thing happen, and boy does that steam the veggies. I thought I broke my hand once from punching the steering wheel. I left another job to catch this guy's call, 45 miles away. When I found his neighborhood, I called him to find his house and he says "Oh, I'm sorry. The other guys showed up 10 minutes ago. But if they can't fix it, I'll give you a call." I said "no, if they can't fix it, don't call me, you're outta luck." 

Boy I was hot!:furious:. Anyway, I hope everything works out. Let us know.:thumbsup:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Wait... so, your original electrician didn't think your emergency service call was more important than some other job? That doesn't seem right. For emergencies, I drop anything else that isn't also an emergency.
> 
> I sure hope the other guy gets the message. I have had the same thing happen, and boy does that steam the veggies. I thought I broke my hand once from punching the steering wheel. I left another job to catch this guy's call, 45 miles away. When I found his neighborhood, I called him to find his house and he says "Oh, I'm sorry. The other guys showed up 10 minutes ago. But if they can't fix it, I'll give you a call." I said "no, if they can't fix it, don't call me, you're outta luck."
> 
> Boy I was hot!:furious:. Anyway, I hope everything works out. Let us know.:thumbsup:


you did bill him didn't you? You surely had a right to and should have.


btw guys; 8 volts too much? POCO is allowed +- 10%. that's from 108 to 132 volts. I don't like the voltages but that is the specs.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

nap said:


> you did bill him didn't you? You surely had a right to and should have.
> 
> 
> btw guys; 8 volts too much? POCO is allowed +- 10%. that's from 108 to 132 volts. I don't like the voltages but that is the specs.


That's the problem. 
In MD it's 114v to 126v, which I assume means 228v to 252v. Does this mean one side could be at 114 and the other at 240-114, or 252-114?
Is this measured at the panel or at the outlets?

BTW, the PoCo receptionist who told me these numbers also told me that PoCo is under no obligations regarding the quality of the power that is shipped to its customers.

I'd say 8v is too much for the drop at the end of 50' of #14 AWG with a 10A load. This cable should have an impedance of 1/4 Ω. 
At the panel, one source implies that a 10A load across the 240v should drop it 10 mV. I'd think the maximum neutral resistance should also be 0.01v/10A = 1 mΩ, or less.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*Fixed!*

The guy just left. (This is the original guy who replaced the box a month ago. Fortunately I was able to cancel the emergency guy before he finished his previous job.)

He pulled the meter and checked all the connections; everything was good. Then he had me create the problem while he metered -- with a blowdryer on, he said one side was 106v and the other 132v. So at least I could prove the problem to him.

Having eliminated all the connections, and assuming the power co. was correct, he concluded that it must be the line connecting the back of the meter to the circuit box. He replaced that line and the problem disappeared. There was no visible damage to the old cable, but it was bent behind the box and I suspect that the box pushing tightly against it broke some strands.

No more lights dimming or brightening, and when I measure at the outlets in the bathroom there's maybe a half-volt difference with the blowdryer on. (And I'm not sure if that's from the dryer or just the normal fluctuations I see with my cheap meter.) That's down from over 20v.

So all is good. I thank everyone very much for your advice. I appreciate all the help and I'm thrilled to have this resolved.

*Thanks greatly!*


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

For a 1.5Ω neutral connection, I get 105.9v and 131.6v measured at the outlets, with 94w heating the neutral connection. Did he say it was warm?
Close enough for guv'mint wuk!


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*No mention*



Yoyizit said:


> ...Did he say it was warm?...


No mention of it, and I never asked.

BTW, I reconnected my new HDTV and so far it looks great, just like before. I'm hoping that since it seems fine now it didn't suffer any damage.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

great to hear of the fix Jim.





> In MD it's 114v to 126v, which I assume means 228v to 252v. Does this mean one side could be at 114 and the other at 240-114, or 252-114?
> Is this measured at the panel or at the outlets?


poco power is at the pole or last poco connection (they generally accept panel readings). the +- 10% is a national requirement. You may have more strict controls locally though. So based upon that, you can have as much as 264 volts leg to leg and the other numbers I mentioned from each leg to neut. 



> BTW, the PoCo receptionist who told me these numbers also told me that PoCo is under no obligations regarding the quality of the power that is shipped to its customers.


quality of power has nothing to do with voltage. They are responsible for voltage control.

basically, the POCO is allowed +-10%. that is federal regulations. Code has recommendations for voltage drop but that is all they are, recommendations. There is no requirement per code to maintain voltage.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

nap said:


> you did bill him didn't you? You surely had a right to and should have.


I did. But the more I thought about it, the less I wanted his money. I know it sounds strange. But I sent him a letter telling him to disregard the bill. If I took his money, only more bad luck would have followed. The further away from folks like that the better.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I did. But the more I thought about it, the less I wanted his money. I know it sounds strange. But I sent him a letter telling him to disregard the bill. If I took his money, only more bad luck would have followed. The further away from folks like that the better.


maybe Karma will smile upon you because of it:thumbsup:


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*Seeking reassurance*



BataviaJim said:


> ... I reconnected my new HDTV and so far it looks great, just like before. I'm hoping that since it seems fine now it didn't suffer any damage.


Now that the electrical emergency is over I've been worrying about my new HDTV. From what I can recall, it may never have been on when the blowdryer or microwave were running, so it may have been spared the worst surges. However it was definitely on when the fridge. freezer, and boiler ran, all of which caused brief (<1 second) start-up surges. The TV was plugged into a cheap old surge protector, which I have since replaced.

So far the TV seems perfect. Does that mean it's likely okay, or would some damage now cause problems at a later time?

I've been kicking myself for not handling this better. Can I feel relief now or should I keep kicking?

Thanks.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

BataviaJim said:


> Now that the electrical emergency is over I've been worrying about my new HDTV. From what I can recall, it may never have been on when the blowdryer or microwave were running, so it may have been spared the worst surges. However it was definitely on when the fridge. freezer, and boiler ran, all of which caused brief (<1 second) start-up surges. The TV was plugged into a cheap old surge protector, which I have since replaced.
> 
> So far the TV seems perfect. Does that mean it's likely okay, or would some damage now cause problems at a later time?
> 
> ...


As was already stated, some, if not most probably have power supplies that have a wide voltage range. So you are probably ok. But if you want, go ahead and ship it to me, and Ill let you know if it is junk or not...:whistling2:


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*Too confusing*



InPhase277 said:


> As was already stated, some, if not most probably have power supplies that have a wide voltage range. So you are probably ok.


I didn't catch that previously but it's good to hear now. My foot is getting tired from all that kicking.



InPhase277 said:


> But if you want, go ahead and ship it to me, and Ill let you know if it is junk or not...:whistling2:


I had started packing it up but then I saw that you have addresses in two cities and I wasn't sure where to send it, so I guess I'll hang on to it. :laughing:


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## s_anthony (Jan 3, 2009)

If you havn't already - buy the extra warranty that comes with your TV 

Most places will allow you to add it on after you've already purchased it up to X amount of days after - some up to 90 days.


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## BataviaJim (Dec 26, 2008)

*Credit card warranty*



s_anthony said:


> If you havn't already - buy the extra warranty that comes with your TV
> Most places will allow you to add it on after you've already purchased it up to X amount of days after - some up to 90 days.


We didn't get the extended warranty, but we bought the TV with a credit card that doubles the manufacturers warranty so we're covered for 2 years. I figure if there's any manufacturing defect it'll show up long before then. And 2 years from now there will probably be a TV that will make coffee and read the morning paper to me.


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## s_anthony (Jan 3, 2009)

BataviaJim said:


> We didn't get the extended warranty, but we bought the TV with a credit card that doubles the manufacturers warranty so we're covered for 2 years. I figure if there's any manufacturing defect it'll show up long before then. And 2 years from now there will probably be a TV that will make coffee and read the morning paper to me.


One reason why I only buy my electronics on my American Express.. most folks don't know that some CC's extend the warranties.. good stuff!


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