# Is this the right drainage pipe



## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

I need to direct my roof rainwater from the downspout into a runoff box & then from the runoff box go 70 feet in length to the road tree line. I want to use 4" drainage pipe. The pipe is marked "3,000 PSI. I assume that this means it can withstand 3,000 PSI externally. That is to say it won't crush or split from outside pressure like a truck or tractor going over it when its burried. Also I live in upstate South Carolina. Here we do not have a official "Frost Line" so most water lines you will find burried out here, both supply & waste water are set generally no deeper than six or seven inches below grade, which will be the same for my line. That's why Im asking about the schedule 40 drain pipe I see but Im not sure it this is the right stuff. Its just rainwater take away into my roadside treeline. Is this the righ stuff to use. Thanks


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

for roof runoff we use 4" sewer and drain ...but you could use sch 40 abs or pvc but you would need special connectors to connect to your downspout adapter...


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I am not sure exactly what is written on the pipe, but there is no 3,000 psi drainage pipe that I have ever seen. Schedule 40 drainage pipe is about 80 psi at best. There is 3,000 psi special steel pipe for process piping, but you couldn't afford it, and you certainly won't find it in any big box store. Schedule 40 pipe is fine, or SDR 30 pipe is OK also. I like PVC pipe, but ABS is good too.


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## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

ben's plumbing said:


> for roof runoff we use 4" sewer and drain 3,000 psi ...but you could use sch 40 abs or pvc but you would need special connectors to connect to your downspout adapter...


Thanks- It sounds like Im looking at the right stuff for this application. What is confusing to me is that "3,000 psi lable on the pipe. I know this stuff is not designed for internal pressure, so I guess the 3,000 psi is what it would take to destroy it from outside. Thank you!


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I am not sure exactly what is written on the pipe, but there is no 3,000 psi drainage pipe that I have ever seen. Schedule 40 drainage pipe is about 80 psi at best. There is 3,000 psi special steel pipe for process piping, but you couldn't afford it, and you certainly won't find it in any big box store. Schedule 40 pipe is fine, or SDR 30 pipe is OK also. I like PVC pipe, but ABS is good too.


 think he means 3000 lbs crush....glad you caught that psi :yes::yes::yes:


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## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I am not sure exactly what is written on the pipe, but there is no 3,000 psi drainage pipe that I have ever seen. Schedule 40 drainage pipe is about 80 psi at best. There is 3,000 psi special steel pipe for process piping, but you couldn't afford it, and you certainly won't find it in any big box store. Schedule 40 pipe is fine, or SDR 30 pipe is OK also. I like PVC pipe, but ABS is good too.


Well all I can say is if you go to a Lowes store you will find pipe labeled 3,000 psi. Im sure it is making reference to external crush pressure & not internal pressure since I even know that would not be possible with a 4 inch drain pipe. But adding to my curiosity here Danniel, is your comment of what I "could not afford". Sounds like an uncalled for put down against someone you don't even know. Or am I just a sensitve guy??? Thanks anyway for your comment (on the pipe).


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

maddog1 said:


> Well all I can say is if you go to a Lowes store you will find pipe labeled 3,000 psi. Im sure it is making reference to external crush pressure & not internal pressure since I even know that would not be possible with a 4 inch drain pipe. But adding to my curiosity here Danniel, is your comment of what I "could not afford". Sounds like an uncalled for put down against someone you don't even know. Or am I just a sensitve guy??? Thanks anyway for your comment (on the pipe).


 hey maddog don't think dan meant it that way ..that pipe would be out of most homeowners price range ..and some contractors as well ....super expensive....thats not dans style.....:yes::yes:


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

maddog1 said:


> Well all I can say is if you go to a Lowes store you will find pipe labeled 3,000 psi. Im sure it is making reference to external crush pressure & not internal pressure since I even know that would not be possible with a 4 inch drain pipe. But adding to my curiosity here Danniel, is your comment of what I "could not afford". Sounds like an uncalled for put down against someone you don't even know. Or am I just a sensitve guy??? Thanks anyway for your comment (on the pipe).


I would just chill.....and think about how many home uses require a four inch that will handle 3000 psi internal pressure. Like zero. And I would agree with Daniel. Most homeowners, including me, would knot need not be able to afford same. Typical street pressure around here is like 60 lbs psi plus or minus a bit. LONG way between that and 3000 psi! Ron


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

maddog1 said:


> Well all I can say is if you go to a Lowes store you will find pipe labeled 3,000 psi. Im sure it is making reference to external crush pressure & not internal pressure since I even know that would not be possible with a 4 inch drain pipe. *But adding to my curiosity here Danniel, is your comment of what I "could not afford". Sounds like an uncalled for put down against someone you don't even know*. Or am I just a sensitve guy??? Thanks anyway for your comment (on the pipe).


Mad.... You honestly don't know Dan...... He meant a rational person can't afford that pipe for the application.

(And I am suspect that both you and he would have no troble buying it with cash:wink


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Oh... Just as curiousity..... love to see a pic of that at Lowes
.... just wondering what the confusion is.... 
...maybe a Chinese missed some American decimal points.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ben's plumbing said:


> think he means 3000 lbs crush....glad you caught that psi :yes::yes::yes:


Maybe, maybe not. Need a pic.

Flexural Strength on a pipe is expressed in PSI and indeed PVC can go up into the thousands.

The reason for the "PSI" rating is that when you bury a pipe it has an external pressure ALL AROUND it and not just on top of it.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Ha! Funny. Just searching the net for some examples and I ran across this from another forum:



> * Drain pipe under driveway *
> 
> I need to connect some 4" corrugated pipe about 15' under a gravel driveway that gets occasional use (path to backyard) by my truck and rarely a skidsteer when I need to rent one._* At Lowe's I see a thin white PVC "drain pipe" that says "1500 lbs crush" on it *_($10). They also carry one that's green with flare at one end ($20) but says nothing about crush. The last choice is schedule 40 PVC which seems to be the most substantial but also says nothing about crush.
> 
> ...


​


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

My comment about the 3,000 psi pipe being too expensive had nothing to do with the OPS, I was simply pointing out that pipe with an internal pressure rating of 3,000 psi is specialty steel pipe, typically used for industrial use, very expensive, and unnecessary for drainage. My comment had nothing to do with the financial means of the OPS.

I think there are some marking issues on the pipes, which may be related to pipe strength rating. Many pipes are rated for allowable internal pressure. For example, the PEX water pipe I have in my basement is rated for 180 psi at 60 degrees F. The schedule 40 PVC drainage pipe I have around my house is rated for a burst pressure of 710 psi, and a maximum operating pressure of 133 psi (see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-cpvc-pipes-pressures-d_796.html). ABS pipe is similar.

Steel pipe can easily get to 3,000 psi burst or operating pressure, but you need very heavy weight, expensive pipe, so I have never seen it used for drainage. For example, Schedule 40 four inch black steel pipe has a burst strength of 6,300 psi, and a working strength of 1,400 psi. If you needed working strength of 3,000 psi, you would need to go to schedule 160 four inch steel pipe.

There are other ways to measure the strength of pipe. There is crushing strength, which is normally only applied to rigid pipe, not flexible pipe like PVC (see http://www.jmeagle.com/pdfs/Technical Bulletins/TB06DepthofBurialforPVC.pdf) for a full discussion. There is also the possibility of measuring the bending strength of pipe the same way wood beams are measured, where you would have an allowable bending stress (allowable bending stress for wood is somewhere around 1,200 psi depending on species and grade).

The yield stress for PVC pipe is around 6,000 psi (see http://nova-docdb.fnal.gov/0003/000360/001/nova0060.pdf), so I suppose someone could have marked the yield or allowable stress on the PVC pipe. I have never seen this on PVC pipe I have worked with, because for pipe we normally only care about the internal pressure capability, and the crush strength is not relevant for flexible pipe.

Conclusion: I would like to see the markings on that pipe just for curiosity, but I can assure the OPS that Schedule 40 PVC works fine for drainage, and the 3,000 psi marking does not represent burst strength, or allowable pressure, at least for normally available plastic pipe.


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## rodroc (Apr 27, 2014)

Bob Sanders said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Need a pic.
> 
> Flexural Strength on a pipe is expressed in PSI and indeed PVC can go up into the thousands.
> 
> The reason for the "PSI" rating is that when you bury a pipe it has an external pressure ALL AROUND it and not just on top of it.



A picture would really help.

Regards
Rod


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Don't care for the sch 10, too brittle. Unless you plan on using the area as a driveway, use the sdr 30 (green), buried 8" down. You can drive most vehicles over it.

I never glued my downspout transition to the pipe, just let gravity keep it in place.


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## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Daniel Holzman said:


> My comment about the 3,000 psi pipe being too expensive had nothing to do with the OPS, I was simply pointing out that pipe with an internal pressure rating of 3,000 psi is specialty steel pipe, typically used for industrial use, very expensive, and unnecessary for drainage. My comment had nothing to do with the financial means of the OPS.
> 
> I think there are some marking issues on the pipes, which may be related to pipe strength rating. Many pipes are rated for allowable internal pressure. For example, the PEX water pipe I have in my basement is rated for 180 psi at 60 degrees F. The schedule 40 PVC drainage pipe I have around my house is rated for a burst pressure of 710 psi, and a maximum operating pressure of 133 psi (see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-cpvc-pipes-pressures-d_796.html). ABS pipe is similar.
> 
> ...


 
Dan- I think people are taking my response to your comment about affording pipe too serious. However let me explain myself here & to the other readers of this forum. This is a true story. A man came into my screen printing shop one day, whom I had never done business with before. He started odering tens of dozens of T shirts without ever asking the usual questions. I thought he was nuts. In about five minutes he gave me an order with a retail value of $5,000 without a single question asked. Make a long story short, he gave me his check upfront for the order. I checked him out & it turns out that he was the owner of the largest ceramic tile & imported stone counter top shop two towns over from my shop. This incident made me sensitive to the fact that you just never know a persons status or worth. So personally, from that incident on, I've learned to avoid expressing myself in certain ways to others. Your comment about affordability was one of those things I avoid saying to people. I know you were not intending anything personal by it. 

What I really was tring to find out is how those 3,000 psi markings on drainage pipe relate to the use. So now I know they referr to external pressures applied to the pipe & not internal. I need to burry the pipe in a shallow tench, anywhere from 8-to12 inches below the surface. I also need to run a 2,400 pound tractor across the area where the pipe will be burried. I just want to know if the pipe will hold up to that weight going over it. Thanks!!!


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

You are over thinking this. Even though your tractor weighs 2400 pounds, you have 4 wheels. Let us assume your tractor has 4 tires of equal size with a contact area of 32 in² (8"x 4" contact) and has a uniform weight distribution. 2400/4/32 =18.75 psi


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## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

47_47 said:


> You are over thinking this. Even though your tractor weighs 2400 pounds, you have 4 wheels. Let us assume your tractor has 4 tires of equal size with a contact area of 32 in² (8"x 4" contact) and has a uniform weight distribution. 2400/4/32 =18.75 psi


Actually-I did the math earlier. Numbers don't lie nor the science behind them. It's just that I was thinking maybe Im missing something in all of this. While I don't know what happened here last week- THANKS for your info. And I must confess-I have a tendency to overthink things. And the simpler the problem- the more I overthink. You know somebody's gotta invent the better mouse trap and it might as well be me. :thumbup:


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

I also tend to over think and my wife will give a swift kick in the ... to get me back on track. 

I would dig a trench 14" deep to allow for about 2" of bedding material below and on top of the pipe and 6" of dirt for the lawn and use the green pipe. 

I also make a copy of my survey and draw all buried lines for my future reference and don't forget to call dig safe.


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## maddog1 (Aug 21, 2012)

47_47 said:


> I also tend to over think and my wife will give a swift kick in the ... to get me back on track.
> 
> I would dig a trench 14" deep to allow for about 2" of bedding material below and on top of the pipe and 6" of dirt for the lawn and use the green pipe.
> 
> I also make a copy of my survey and draw all buried lines for my future reference and don't forget to call dig safe.


I intend to do what you suggest. Thanks!


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