# brushmarks in Bulls Eye 123



## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm putting up preprimed crown moulding from HD and bought some Bulls eye 123 primer for covering spots where I sand through the primer (outside corners) and to cover my nail hole patches.

What I'm noticing is that I can't get a clean coat on without leaving brush marks that need to be sanded out before top coating. With the curves and details of the crown sanding is a PITA.

I've tried a medium grade ($5) 2" trim brush, a Purdy xl glide, and a foam brush and all leave brush marks. This stuff is thick and smears on like pancake batter. No matter what I use it looks like I put it up with a broom. :furious: It dries so fast the brush marks don't level out. 

I had first considered Killz original (oil based) but was told that it had a strong odor. I don't want the odor due to having kids in the house and the spouse factor. I also prefer water cleanup. I read lots of good reviews on the Bulls eye 123 so I assume there is a way to make it come out looking good.

I'm applying this stuff like paint and I think my coats are tool thin. Should I apply thicker coats or several thin coats? 

Anyone have instructions on how they successfully applied that stuff without getting heavy brushmarks? Any flowout additives to consider?

thanks

p.s. I'll be topcoating with BM Advance satin in a off white.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey Dan, welcome. First thing to consider is that you're viewing brush marks against no brush marks. The preprimed crown is sprayed, so against that background any brush pattern will look horrible. When you spot prime, brush the primer back and forth three/four times with slight pressure, then back off the pressure and lightly lay it off with just the tips of the brush, very little pressure. Most brush applied latex finishes will to one degree or another look hand brushed, just as the other applicators will reveal their use. I think that once the two coats of finish are applied, the worries you have now will be gone. I would suggest that if you have other trim surfaces to paint with the Advance, you practice on them first to get a feel for the material. You can't apply that stuff too heavily.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

You bought about the crappiest primer you could pick IMO. That said, I worry you also bought a bag of brushes for $3 on sale? Or you upgraded to a bit more for expensive one for how much? $5? No offense, and I get a deep discount and even shop closeouts online but have never found a quality paint brush I would trust for $5.

Not to beat you up but retail, good brushes go for like $15-20l. Your are getting brush strokes obvious because your brush choices suck.

Invest in a couple of nice quality sash brushes with long handles and if you take care of them, they will outlast your residency in the house. I personally like the angled ones about 2.5 to 3 inches. Other painters have other preferences. 

Mine are all Purdy or Wooster. 

Now then, how to fix it. Please buy nice paint, from a paint store, for the trim. And if it is waterbased, pick up a bottle of Floetrol. Mix it into your paint according to instructions. With your brand new high end brush, nice paint and Floetrol, and two coats? Call me if most of the brush marks in the primer do not look at least a bit better.


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## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

sdsester

I went by the reviews on HD and a few other places when I was told that Kilz had high odor. the Bulls eye 123 had good reviews so thats why I chose it. I was actually slightly more expensive than the Kilz.

If you read my post, I first tried it with what I consider a midrange $5 brush (as opposed to a $0.50 chip brush) that I figured would be good enough for primer not thinking primer would be application sensitive. When that didn't work i pulled out the ($15) Purdy xl glide I had selected for the top coat. When that didn't work I tried some foam brushes my wife used for arts and crafts. I have used them to glide on some polyurethane with good results on loudspeaker projects in spite of the low price.

I actually got the best results with the foam brushes/pads but I still had to play with it to smooth out the ridges left by the foam pad. If I pressed too hard it wouldn't cover, too easy and it would either run into the corners or be uneven.

I'm going to try jsheridan's advice and try to brush it in at first then lay it off with a little heavier coat. 

I just looked at some of my spot primes after drying and from the floor its hard to see from a few feet away.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

cousindan said:


> sdsester
> 
> I went by the reviews on HD and a few other places when I was told that Kilz had high odor. the Bulls eye 123 had good reviews so thats why I chose it. I was actually slightly more expensive than the Kilz.
> 
> ...


Not exactly what I meant. When you spot prime, dip your brush in the can about an inch, (you should be working out of a work pot with about half a quart in it, never a full can) tap the brush back and forth against the sides, brush your touch up back and forth a couple of times just applying the paint, then, without redipping (and you may even have to wipe some excess material off the brush before laying off, but only add more if you didn't apply enough, never to add a "heavier coat"), lightly lay off what you applied with just the tips of the brush. Don't brush back and forth when laying off, just pull the brush lightly across the touch up two/three times in the same direction each time. If you press too hard during the lay off you'll fan the bristles and exaggerate the brush marks. As you do you the layoff, it's like an airplane touching down and taking off again, never put your brush straight down on a surface or stop it and lift it off. This is where the skill comes in. Anybody can brush paint on, but not everybody can manipulate the brush at the angles, pressures, and proper amount of paint pickup/control to create a quality finish. It takes practice, and patience.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

I think 123 is a great primer. And I always thin it back a bit with water for just that reason. 
I don't think it's the best for new wood though. you want something that will sabd a bit. 123 is great as an adhesion coat and to prep for any sheened paint. 
The flatter Bulls Eye might be better. I like a hard to find Primecoat2 for new wood.


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

Jsheridan....great advise with the brush technique. i see so called "pros" do it wrong all of the time, weather it is done with a brush, roller or airless sprayer. i see overloaded brushes and rollers started at the end of the wet edge and ran completely dry so the paint is heavy to light instead of starting a few inches away and carrying the paint back into your existing work. same goes with spraying, your gun should already be moving before you squeeze the trigger. i see guys point the gun at there work and pull the trigger, leaving a nice heavy blob on the surface. application,good paint and quality tools is key to a good paint job.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> I think 123 is a great primer. And I always thin it back a bit with water for just that reason.
> I don't think it's the best for new wood though. you want something that will sabd a bit. 123 is great as an adhesion coat and to prep for any sheened paint.
> The flatter Bulls Eye might be better. I like a hard to find Primecoat2 for new wood.


Thanks Brush, I meant to add in there a bit about thinning, and you reminded me. In all my years, don't know if I ever worked with 123, it's a sealer right, light gloss. I have used the Primecoat2. I was a little leary about the price but it worked nicely and sanded well on new wood. You get that at HD? I think it's an HD only product by Z.


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## rehabob (Apr 10, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Most brush applied latex finishes will to one degree or another look hand brushed, just as the other applicators will reveal their use. I think that once the two coats of finish are applied, the worries you have now will be gone.


I am not a pro like jsheridan, but I use pre-primed trim all the time in my rehabs. After sanding and touch-up priming, I can tell you from experience that the primer brushmarks will be hidden and covered by the finish coat brushmarks. I've tried 1-2-3 and other, cheaper primers (anyway to save a buck, right?). The result is still the same - the only brushmarks visible are the finish coat.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

CMHbob said:


> I am not a pro like jsheridan, but I use pre-primed trim all the time in my rehabs. After sanding and touch-up priming, I can tell you from experience that the primer brushmarks will be hidden and covered by the finish coat brushmarks. I've tried 1-2-3 and other, cheaper primers (anyway to save a buck, right?). The result is still the same - the only brushmarks visible are the finish coat.


Preprimed is the main choice when primed/uprimed is available. If you expose a little wood when sanding preprimed, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to grab your primer. I rarely ever reprime any preprimed stock, even after sanding, which it all gets. Part of doing a good sanding job is knowing how to use the paper effectively, shape it, pressure, while doing the least amount of damage to the primed surface. Most interior finishes are self-priming over *incidental areas* of exposed wood, like edges, puttied holes, etc. However, I have had times where I had to use sandpaper to make the carpenters work look good, that would call for repriming. Don't flame me, I'm not saying put finish over raw wood. Understand the distinction, think. Exterior is a different story.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Thanks Brush, I meant to add in there a bit about thinning, and you reminded me. In all my years, don't know if I ever worked with 123, it's a sealer right, light gloss. I have used the Primecoat2. I was a little leary about the price but it worked nicely and sanded well on new wood. You get that at HD? I think it's an HD only product by Z.



yes to all the above :thumbsup:


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## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

I just tried Jsheridan's airplane landing method and it looks a lot better. I just need more practice keeping the primer from building up in the corners and features of the mounding. Thats where I get in trouble when i backbrush. Most of my cutthroughs are on the outside edges where the two pieces didn't limie up square and one si sticking out 1/32 or so passed the other. I block sand that 1/32" lip off but it leaves an unpimed line. I tried painting over it before with some (S_ugar H_oney I_ced T_ea) paint I got form lowes (olympic fast hide ultra) and it took 5 coats to get it to where I didn't see the line. That stuff should be called no hide. It doesn't cover pencil marks or blakc rubber marks from the nail gun at all. I have to use scothbrite pad to Erase the crown to solid white before painting.  

Thats why I switched the Ben Moore Advance. That stuff is great. I put it on with a purdy xl glide and it covers nice with low odor and the brush marks fade way. The only downside is one coat / day. I'll take that for having it not show brush marks and water (mostly) cleanup.

I'm also trying out the GE Groov Caulk. So far so good. I have a tube of DAP ALEX painters caulk. Should I toss it since I've read it will dry up and crack over time?


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

some blue painters tape over that rubber on your nail gun will keep those black scuffs away


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

cousindan said:


> I just tried Jsheridan's airplane landing method and it looks a lot better. I just need more practice keeping the primer from building up in the corners and features of the mounding. Thats where I get in trouble when i backbrush. Most of my cutthroughs are on the outside edges where the two pieces didn't limie up square and one si sticking out 1/32 or so passed the other. I block sand that 1/32" lip off but it leaves an unpimed line. I tried painting over it before with some (S_ugar H_oney I_ced T_ea) paint I got form lowes (olympic fast hide ultra) and it took 5 coats to get it to where I didn't see the line. That stuff should be called no hide. It doesn't cover pencil marks or blakc rubber marks from the nail gun at all. I have to use scothbrite pad to Erase the crown to solid white before painting.
> 
> Thats why I switched the Ben Moore Advance. That stuff is great. I put it on with a purdy xl glide and it covers nice with low odor and the brush marks fade way. The only downside is one coat / day. I'll take that for having it not show brush marks and water (mostly) cleanup.
> 
> I'm also trying out the GE Groov Caulk. So far so good. I have a tube of DAP ALEX painters caulk. Should I toss it since I've read it will dry up and crack over time?


Not to defend the primer you rejected, but you can't tell a primer doesn't hide until you put the finish on. Some primers will show what's under them, but are still blocking. 
Anytime you drag a brush against an edge, you risk getting a run/buildup, so you have to adjust the angle of approach. Example: When you paint crown with dental detail, above and below the detail gets layed off horizontally, but the dental detail gets layed off vertically. 
Glad to hear the airplane analogy worked for you.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

As far as latex primers go 123 is one of the best. It was a bonding primer back before they started labeling latex bonding primers. It is still latex so IMHo it has no business going on bare wood.


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## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

Dont' get me wrong, I didn't reject the bulls eye 123. The Advance is for the top coat not the pimer. I didn't realize Advance made a primer too.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

cousindan said:


> Dont' get me wrong, I didn't reject the bulls eye 123. The Advance is for the top coat not the pimer. I didn't realize Advance made a primer too.


What is this referring to?


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## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Not to defend the primer you rejected, but you can't tell a primer doesn't hide until you put the finish on. Some primers will show what's under them, but are still blocking.
> Anytime you drag a brush against an edge, you risk getting a run/buildup, so you have to adjust the angle of approach. Example: When you paint crown with dental detail, above and below the detail gets layed off horizontally, but the dental detail gets layed off vertically.
> Glad to hear the airplane analogy worked for you.


 
This statement from you. It looked like you thought I rejected the bulls eye in favor of the Advance since i didn't mention that the Advance was topcoat only not primer.

Crossed signals thats all. Just out of curiosity, what were you refering to in that first statement?


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I reread and see that you had problems with Olympic *finish paint* covering over pencil marks. Sometimes a primer/sealer will not look like it covered a stain. But, when you put the finish on it's gone. It's the finish you had a coverage problem with and switched. That's a big jump from Olympic to Advance. Sometimes I just get so confused, lol.


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## cousindan (Apr 23, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> I reread and see that you had problems with Olympic *finish paint* covering over pencil marks. Sometimes a primer/sealer will not look like it covered a stain. But, when you put the finish on it's gone. It's the finish you had a coverage problem with and switched. That's a big jump from Olympic to Advance. Sometimes I just get so confused, lol.


 
Yup, Got fed up with cheap paint and ponyed up for the good stuff. Never looking back now. Advance is worlds better than the fasthide alkid and is water cleanup to boot.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

sdsester said:


> You bought about the crappiest primer you could pick IMO.


Maybe he meant the paint.


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