# leaks from ice dams



## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

I live in MA, in a 1960 "multi"-style house. Basically the roof line goes up from left or right edge to center, with a 2' drip edge on each end. Each side of the roof is about 9 squares. The house is a rectangle, with a small 12x12 additional section behind the left side. Unfortunately, the roof pitch is barely code (4:12), and a bit below code on the left side (apparently the original owner wanted his living room 2' bigger, so they made the roof shallower rather than raising the peak :-{ ). It's also badly insulated in places. Under the cathedral (left side) there's only a few inches of aluminum-foil-bagged-fluff inside the 2x6 rafter space. In the middle, there’s a floor above 2x6s with R-13 in the floor. On the right side it was about R-15-R25 but I recently (after the damage I will now discuss) improved it to R30-R40. The additional section has it’s own sealed attic with R-30 throughout. There are good sized (and not-blocked) ridge and soffit vents throughout. 

As you may guess, I've had problems with ice-dams. However, last year, when it was time to re-roof, I hired a person who had been a friend for several years and has run his own successful roofing company for even longer. We discussed what to do, and ended up putting on architectural shingles, and 12' of ice/water barrier on the left (shallower) side, and 9' on the other. He also did a thorough job sealing around my chimney (on the left side). I thought my problems were over for good. 

The results have been mixed. We had a lot of snow this winter, and parts of the roof that used to give me problems (left side) stayed dry, but other parts have had significant seepage/leakage. I had significant seepage on the right side (over bedrooms, where it's better insulated), and some leaking in the left rear section. Admittedly when I cleared the snow on the right side, I found 2-3" of water under it, but in the left rear I found only about 1/2", maybe less. I also got some drips into my (left side) living room half-way up the roof.

On one hand, I don't think the contractor did a shoddy job, and we're both scratching our heads as to why there were so many leaks. (especially as I noticed his crew used what looked like staple guns? So the I/W barrier shouldn't have been punctured?). He said he's seeing this at other jobs he did, and thinks that because I/W barrier got so expensive, they also don't make it as well. I don't have an opinion. The only other time I had water leaking in on the right side of my house, the assumption was that the I/W barrier failed, and I paid to have the bottom 6' redone (I/W Barrier and shingles), and that fixed it, but that was on a 10-year-old roof, not a new one. 

He's offered to comp me the labor for whatever solution we agree on. He's leaning toward ice wires, I'm leaning toward metal roof flashing (or as I call it, aluminum Ice/Water barrier), as I'd prefer a passive solution. Also, most of the problems appear to happen in the few feet above the drip edge so if I can cover the bottom 6-8' of the roof on both sides with aluminum, I'd like to think that the water buildup will stay on top of the barrier. (Although, the pitch may not be sufficient for the snow/ice to slide off). Another concern is that there's a 1-level attached garage to the right side of the house (with sufficiently pitched roofs, front-to-back) so I don't know if it's bad if the snow/ice starts sliding off the main roof onto the garage roof. 

I've also considered asking him to rip up the bottom 8' on both sides and try again, but that would imply that he somehow did it wrong on both sides, (and will do it better the 2nd time) which I'm not sure is the case. I mean, on the right side, the I/WB was laid -over- the old one (from the repair I mentioned), and it STILL wasn't sufficient to keep from ruining part of an interior wall. Go figure? 

So basically I'm looking for ideas/suggestions, etc. I don't want to "go after" the contractor, I want to work with him to get the right solution. My goal is simply to have a dry house. 

One more thing: I understand that the “right” solutions can involve 
- better sealing the attic floor so that moisture doesn’t rise from below

- turning off the whole-house humidifier
- adding more insulation to floored and cathedral sections
- increasing the pitch of the roof

However, none of these are really options. There’s an A/C air handler and duct system in the attic, so removing all the existing insulation and flooring and starting over would be a huge job. Also, trying to insulate the cathedral is difficult because there is access only at the top and bottom, and there’s only 5 1/2” of space, which has to include air-space. For health reasons I don’t want to turn of the humidifier (it’s adjusted to 35%), and I don’t want to rebuild my house. 8-}

I’m wondering if there’s anything I can do to mitigate the current situation. I already doubled the insulation in the part of the attic that I can access. I'm wondering if the metal flashing might make sense, and whether Ice wires are an option. Or maybe this shouldn’t be happening and I should have a different roofer re-do the bottom of both sides of the roof. I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking.

Thanks for reading this far, and thanks in advance for your help.
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

That's a lengthy description of your problem but still not as good as a few pictures. With that much Ice and water barrier, it doesn't seem likely that the water is creeping in up above that. This the useal suspect with ice dams and water intrusion. That leaves either a compromised IWB or improper edge sealing IMO. But like I said, pictures would help.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, now the roof is clear and dry. I'm happy to take pics, but not sure what you want to look at. Right now it looks like a nice dry roof 8-}

I agree that the water did not get above the barrier, it did get to 2-3" deep over the barrier. I also agree that the symptoms seem to indicate a poorly installed or failing I/W Barrier, but the roof was just done, and by guys who seemed to know what they're doing. I have to wonder if using all my ammunition on getting them to re-do it is the best way to go.

what do you mean by "improper edge sealing"?

thanks!!
/j


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

jeffw_00 said:


> I live in MA, in a 1960 "multi"-style house. Basically the roof line goes up from left or right edge to center, with a 2' drip edge on each end. Each side of the roof is about 9 squares. The house is a rectangle, with a small 12x12 additional section behind the left side. Unfortunately, the roof pitch is barely code (4:12), and a bit below code on the left side (apparently the original owner wanted his living room 2' bigger, so they made the roof shallower rather than raising the peak :-{ ). It's also badly insulated in places. Under the cathedral (left side) there's only a few inches of aluminum-foil-bagged-fluff inside the 2x6 rafter space. In the middle, there’s a floor above 2x6s with R-13 in the floor. On the right side it was about R-15-R25 but I recently (after the damage I will now discuss) improved it to R30-R40. The additional section has it’s own sealed attic with R-30 throughout. There are good sized (and not-blocked) ridge and soffit vents throughout.
> 
> As you may guess, I've had problems with ice-dams. However, last year, when it was time to re-roof, I hired a person who had been a friend for several years and has run his own successful roofing company for even longer. We discussed what to do, and ended up putting on architectural shingles, and 12' of ice/water barrier on the left (shallower) side, and 9' on the other. He also did a thorough job sealing around my chimney (on the left side). I thought my problems were over for good.
> 
> ...


This is from another site about Ice Dams.



http://www.snomelt.com/


http://www.meltsnow.com/msds-ice-ban.htm this is the one I was talking about in a laer post. Ice Ban.

http://www.unique-idea.com/BGS-1.htm this one is readily available, called Bare Ground, available from this outlet, directly linked from Bare Grounds home page store link.

http://www.iceviper.com/


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Thanks - but any solution that has me walking all over the roof, spreading (my calc) ~ 400sq ft of deicer for every storm, isn't what I'm looking for (I'm getting a bit old to be walking icy roofs). The icemelt socks are interesting, and can be imitated with a nylon stocking, but they still need to be placed before every storm, and if there's 6" of snow on the roof, and there's a tunnel from the stocking you placed after the last storm, it's not clear to me how you place one for the -next- storm. The ones that I've made aren't potent enough to eat -through- an ice dam...

Metal flashing isn't going to help me, huh? 8-}
thanks!
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

jeffw_00 said:


> Thanks - but any solution that has me walking all over the roof, spreading (my calc) ~ 400sq ft of deicer for every storm, isn't what I'm looking for (I'm getting a bit old to be walking icy roofs). The icemelt socks are interesting, and can be imitated with a nylon stocking, but they still need to be placed before every storm, and if there's 6" of snow on the roof, and there's a tunnel from the stocking you placed after the last storm, it's not clear to me how you place one for the -next- storm. The ones that I've made aren't potent enough to eat -through- an ice dam...
> 
> Metal flashing isn't going to help me, huh? 8-}
> thanks!
> /j


How about a roof rake. http://www.amazon.com/Suncast-SRR21...sr_1_2?s=garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1297813649&sr=1-2 Just at the edges where the melting snow from the heated portions of the roof meets the unheated overhang. After a significant snowfall. 2-3 inches of water buildup is asking a lot of any roof come to think of it. This has been a sever winter with multiple small snowstorms followed by longer that usual freezing periods. I found myself raking my gutter edges with the roof rake after every snow fall this year. Try home maintenence next winter season before the ice dams get severe. If it still leaks, then you can start looking at the roof installation. Most roofers warranty their work 7-10 years.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Hi - a Roof rake wouldn't work for me (access issues), walking onto the roof and using a shovel does work, and if that's the only solution I will resign myself to it, but some have suggested 4-8' of metal flashing, ice wires, etc. these are all a waste of effort?

thanks
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Here is where pictures would have help me. Your description is a little confusing. Is the 4:12 pitch on the main house of the addition? Is the shallow pitch the reason you cannot access the edge of your roof with the snow rake? Climbing on roofs is the winter is dangerous. 

As far exterior gutter edge flashing you ask about goes, here are some before and after pictures of my house roof with, then without the flashing. Ugly, ugly ugly IMO. On top of that, it did absolutely nothing to prevent ice dams. 

Admittedly, my soffit to ridge ventilation is not properly balanced, nor is the attic adaquately insulated. The soffit intake has to be exactly 1/2 the square area of the ridge vent on each side and has to be continious in addition to proper attic ventilation to prevent ice from forming. 

I have been paying more attention to this around town this winter. It seems that most of the newer constructed homes are free of ice damming whereas most of the older homes, inspite of the presence of soffit and ridge ventillation still have ice forming on the edges.

I still say that failing adaquate ventillation and insulation, preventative maintenance is your best defense.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Hi Jim - Ok - let me try to take some pics from the street tomorrow.

the entire house has 4:12 pitch, or less. 

There's a dormer on the back 1/2 of one side of the house, so I can access the roof by climbing out a window, However, on the right side is an attached garage so no access from the ground. On the left side I could try to access from the ground but it's 12' up and there are trees and bushes in the way. 

Fortunately, my roof is such that no one would see the flashing. I would probably want to have at least 2x as much as you show. My guess is that your dams extended above the flashing. I'm thinking of 4-8'. 

Regular (per storm) maintenance is a last resort for me, I haven't given up yet 8-}
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nope. Ice on the the ugly metal flashing, on the gutters, on the shingles above the flashing. It got so bad one year it took down the gutter and did a lot of damage the small shrub to the left of the porch. It still has not fully recovered. 

Metal is a great conductor of cold. Water freezes on it very quickly like when a kid sticks his tongue on flag pole. The reflective nature of the metal actually kept it cold longer. The forest green architectural shingle you see heats up faster and melts the ice quicker that the metal flashing that was on there before.

If you go further up with the flashing than the water backs up from the ice, I suppose it will stop it from leaking in as long as there are no seams of screws in the flashing that fail. 

If you go 8' up with the flashing, how much shingle will you have still showing? I remeber what 6' of IWS looked like on my roof when it was going on. A couple of more feet would have covered up to the ridge.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

My ice would not extend above the flashing. I thought the aluminum is meant to catch the heat of the sun and warm it up? 

If I go 8' with the flashing, I will still have > 20ft of shingle showing.
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Aluminum reflects the sun which reduces the absorption of heat. Dark colors absorb the sun and heat up. It doesn't cost anything to get estimates and opinions from roofing contractors. It might be interesting to hear what an unbiased third party says about your friend's work.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Here are some pictures - getting another roofer out here is an interesting idea, although not sure what he can deduce visually. The roof surface looks fine, I think...


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## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2008)

"Improper edge sealing" The last roofer might have installed the ice shield wrong. 
Check out this link for the right way to install ice shield. 



If it is not that visible, a modified bitumen or similar flat roof material might be a good idea for the lower edge of the roof.
The heat tape will work, but it's ugly and needs maintenance.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

I think I will have another roofer look at it - no drip edge on the side, I think. The flat roof material is a good idea - unless... will it dam where the top of the flat roof stops?


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## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2008)

The ice dam will start at the cold edge of the roof. The heat in the attic will keep the area above warm and free of ice regardless of the roofing material.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Thanks - my concern was that the melting snow on the roof surface would flow down until it hit the "bump" created by the top of the flat-roof, and pool there. 

Would you put the flat-roof-material OVER the shingles, or remove the shingles first?


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## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2008)

Remove the shingles.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

got it - it will go on the list to discuss with the roofer - I like the idea - shouldn't cost much more than his idea of running the aluminum flashing all the way along both sides of the roof.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Low slope roofing is what you need. It looks like a lot of your roof can be reached from the ground with the rake as described in this link http://www.roofingcontractorreview.com/Roofing/Ice-Dams/ice-dam-and-snow-removal.html from the above-posted link. 

A lot comes from learning from past experiences with your particular roof what has worked in previous winters. Even if there areas on the edge of the roof that cannot be reached with a rake, opening up spaces will let the backed up water escape better. This winter has been more severe than average. I have over 15 years experience with my own roof system and the current roof is less than 3 years old. 

In the past, when the ice formed as much as you have showing, I was up on the ladder with a hammer and star drill breaking up the ice ever so carefully so as not to damage the roof. When I would break through a section, the water would just come pouring out. I don't recommend breaking up the ice once it has formed. Prevention is the best way. 

Another consideration with that roof of yours given the low pitch over a large area is the weight of all that snow, ice and water. Anything you can do to insulate and balance out the ventilation is your best long-term solution.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

HI Jim - Yes, I understand that having to go out and clear my roof after every storm is one solution. However, it's not a very convenient one for me, because it means doing it from the roof. I obviously (I hope) can't do the right side because the garage is in the way. On the left side, I would need access, which I don't have now with over 3' of snow on the ground, so I would also have to clear ground access for every storm. This is more physical labor than I'm capable of doing on a regular basis. I suppose if there is -no- other solution I can try to hire someone for each of the dozen+ storms we seem to have every year, but I'm not convinced this is my only solution.

As far as insulating, even if I could somehow tear out all the insulation in the cathedral ceiling and replace it, the best I could do is R-13 because there's only 5.5" clearance, I don't think the result would be much different than I have now. 

Jim I appreciate your input. I don't know what "low slope roofing" is- can you explain? 

Also - I am finding in other places on the Internet that there -are- other solutions - for example, there are types of rolled roofing that can be placed across the lowest 6-8 feet on each side that will seal better than shingles...

(does anyone else have any suggestions?)
/j


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Not sure why the I&W didn't work here,if its up
past the point the leaks occurred.
One suggestion when you repair or replace this
is to remove siding on the rear dormer(sides and bottom), and
any other roof/'wall intersection and roll the I&W
or what ever else you use,up the wall about 18"
for a water tight fit
Ice dame can cause the water to get above the level of the 
step flashing and without the I&W behind it your going
to have leaking.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

Hi oldfrt - the dormer was re-roofed and re-sided a couple of year before the roof was done, by the same roofer, and he left flashing so that when the roof was re-done it would come out ok. Also - below/near the dormer is the one place that stayed dry up to now. Thanks though! I'll discuss it with him.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Ice shield relies on its softness to reseal around each of the staples and nails driven through it to hold the shingles on. I find it hard to believe that ice shield actually keeps water out but rather it can just greatly reduce the water that seeps in when there is an ice dam.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

you could well be right, but on the other hand, in this modern day and age there should be -something- i can do so that i don't have to expect water damage every bad winter - that's why I'm posting 8-}
/j


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

There are a few low slope roofing options available. There is rolled asphalt roofing there are several mambrane roofs. I have EPDM rubber roof on my garage which is closer to flat than your roof. I don't know what the cut off point is where a roofer would decide to use low slope over shingles. I doubt is they would all agree anyway. Some would prabably tell you that you could get away with shingles on your roof and others would insist on a low slope option. 

Low slope roofing is less attractive than shingled so homeowners generally are not crazy about it. I am not a roofer myself but went throught all these options less than three years ago with three different roofing contractors. There are roofers on here and I'm surprised one of them hasn't spoken up. 

Your roof presents some unique challenges. It is rather low pitched as you have acknowleged and it covers a large area. It has a history of failure with it's current roofing system so that tells you that something needs to change. 

I have landing zones around my roof where I must clear snow with the snowblower before I can rake more snwo off the roof. before I got the snowthrower, I have to do this by hand. I to am getting too old for this crap. Every winter has me thinking about a nice condo where I pay HOA fees and forget about maintenence. 

It is not unreasonable to hire someone to clear your roof when there is an excessive amount of snow. But if you are looking adding flashing, or reroofing, there may be better options and you should talk to several roofing contractors, not just your friend. Your friend may have steered you wrong. Friendships are sometimes lost when the personal relationship becomes a business one.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

good points all - thanks. 
But don't move to a condo - I lived in one for 7 years (5 as a trustee). At least as a homeowner you have control of your environment.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

jeffw_00 said:


> Hi oldfrt - the dormer was re-roofed and re-sided a couple of year before the roof was done, by the same roofer, and he left flashing so that when the roof was re-done it would come out ok. Also - below/near the dormer is the one place that stayed dry up to now. Thanks though! I'll discuss it with him.


 The dormer does looks far enough up the slope
not to have been affected by the ice dam but,
I've seen places where an ice dam will form 
directly in front of that type of dormer and 
back up under the flashing.
With the right conditions any water that drips 
off the dormer roof could freeze before it
has a chance to run off the lower roof.

My other concern was where the garage roof 
meets the house.but I don't see any ice dams 
on the garage.

You're on the right track,get another roofer or
two to do a visual inspection.
One's with more experience will know what 
works in your area and can judge by the water
stains the areas that need to be addressed.
Can't do much more from here but guess,and
offer a few tips.

Keep us posted.
I haven't seen I&W fail me since we've started
using it 20+ years ago,so it will be interesting to see
where the problem was.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

no ice dams on the garage. Big ice dams on the left side of the house, but only a little (1/2") water backup, and leakage ONLY in the back section, where the attic is very well-insulated and cold. go figure.

thanks!
/j


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## BamBamm5144 (Oct 6, 2009)

Three things help defend against ice dams. Insulation, ventilation and I+W shield.

If you can make the first two work properly together, you should be able to nearly eliminate them.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

I wish my house was designed to make the first two work properly together (sigh).
/j


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

How long are you eve edges? You could put a 8 or 10' 60mil EPDM on the eve edges, then overlap that about 2' with shingles. Should get you past all of your problems. The black EPDM will help melt some of the snow/ice off that is if the sun ever see's that side of the house.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

1985gt: Thanks for the response. This sounds very encouraging. I'm not sure what you mean by eve edges. The roof has a 24" overhang all around. I googled EPDM and it looks like rubber roofing? You would put this over the shingles, or replace them? This sounds similar to the earlier suggestions to rip out the bottom 4-8' of shingles and replace with rolled roofing.
THANKS!
/j


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Yes EPDM is rubber roofing. What I mean by eve edges is the edge where you gutter is, how long in lenght is it. Im asking this because EPDM come in rolls of XXX amount long. I was trying to think of a way to do it with out having to have any seems. In this case I would stay away from any self adheard modified roofing, you dont really want the seams. You could always have someone mop on a 3ply with mineral surface cap sheet. In this case I think EPDM would work great and be some what cost effective.

This is what I would do, and this is just me. Tear off the shingles along the eve edge say 12' up. dont worry about the Ice and water shield as you will go over it. Lay down a 1/2 coverboard. Use the screws and plates that are for this. on the top edge us a 1/2 x 6" tapered edge strip to smooth out the bump. The reason for coverboard is so A. no nails can come and pop up underneath the EPDM, and B. To give a good surface to glue too. Then you would glue your EPDM down to this coverboard. At the top edge of the EPDM on the underside lay a bead of Water Stop, this is a caulking that really doesnt set up it will keep from any water getting in from behind. On top that installl a 6-8" counter flashing. Prefinished steel of course. This is where you will start you starter course of shingles. ON the bottom edge of epdm install same Water Stop between the epdm and gutter edge. Install your new drip edge, not gutter appron, drip edge atleast a 3" face and 3" flange, this will be striped in with coverstrip. If the roofer you are currently talking to doesnt know about any of these items find a good flat roofer. Doing it this way should take care of all of your problems. I just looked at a roof that has the same thing going on. It was the Ice and Water shield that had broke. It was a about a 2:12 slope so now they want EPDM.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

no gutters, 24" overhang. ~30' on the right , about ~40' on the back.

To be honest, I don't understand enough of the terms ("coverboard","tapered edge strip","counter flashing",), but you sure sound like you know what you're talking about. I will run this by my roofer, and if not, find a roofer who does understand it. (as soon as the snow melts 8-}).

Thanks very much - this is going to by my spring project.

/j


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Do alot of looking on the internet. If you know the roofer he should have no problems being honest with you. I know I wouldnt want to work on something only to have it come back and bite me. If you have any questions feel free. Some of the place's you might go looking is at versico, firestone, Johns manville. Coverboard is a 1/2" thick compressed woodfiber. the tapered edge strip is the same material only 6" wide and goes from 0" to 1/2". Counterflashing on this application would just be a flat piece of metal with a hem and a kick.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

I'm putting together my notes and will meet with him next month (nothing we can do until the snow melts) - Your suggestions will be topic #1.

THANKS!
/j


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Good luck! hope it turns out good for you.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

Here's the deal on ice and water shield.

All the manufactures of the sticky stuff have there warranty stated this way,
Wind driven rain and ice are warranted when properly installed to prevent leaking.
Standing water on top of an ice dam resulting in water intrusion is not covered under the warranty. They comment it will help reduce the chance the of water intrusion but will not prevent it.

Like others have mentioned the issue is with your ventilation and insulation. On homes with ice dam problems before I give them a bid for full replacement I spend half an hour or so in the attic. This gives me time to inspect for baffles on the eave, and vent placement on the ridge. Also inspect all connections and fittings for exhaust vents.

On several occasions have seen bath and kitchen fans not hooked up or loose. Have also seen a number of times insulation stuffed tight to the eave.

Have your roofer or another roofer check out the attic before they go on the roof next time.


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## jeffw_00 (Feb 15, 2011)

So here's the resolution with the roofer.

We're going to put Ice Belts on the roof (for a price much less than professionally-installed ice wires). If that doesn't work, then he'll concede there's something wrong under the roof (wherever it fails) and rip-up and redo for the cost of materials (or better- we'll see).

He believes ice belts -> no ice dams -> no problems. that really should be true, I think
/j


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