# Proper fastening of 2x10 blocking



## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Hello everyone,

I am adding some solid 2x10 blocking, 16" on center, between a 2x10 joist and the rim joist on the outside wall. This is in a basement where I am building the wall out from the concrete block. The double top plate does not meet the joist above which is running parallel to the wall, that being the reason for the blocking.

I was looking at code in the IRC 2009 (which my town is still going by). In chapter 6, table R602.3(1), item 23 states:

"ITEM 23 : Joist to sill or girder, toe nail : 3-8d (2-1/2″ × 0.113″)"

It's going to be really tough to do any nailing up against the rim joist. I wanted to check if it would be alright to use a Simpson Strong-Tie Model # L70Z ZMAX 7 in. 16-Gauge Galvanized Reinforcing L-Angle to make this connection instead of the toe-nailing. I would also be using Simpson Strong-Tie Model # SD9112R100 #9 1-1/2 in. External Hex Flange Hex-Head Structural-Connector Screws. Several questions stem from this also:

1: Can I just use one on just one side of the blocking which meets the rim joist instead of a pair. Will it pass inspection? (I will be end nailing the other side to the joist through the side of the joist into the end of the blocking)

2: And speaking of the end nailing, I've been doing x4 16d nails elsewhere where I added blocking here and there in the middle of the space. Is that bad? It's not what's in that nailing schedule now that I am looking at it. Like will an inspector be that picky and say I like weakened the joist with the extra nail or something? (I know I am probably over thinking it but I just worry.)

3: I've also used these connectors already in places where I needed to sister a joist to another. Is that okay? When I had removed one joist at one point I saw that it was end nailed from the outside. That prompted me to go get these connectors so that the sistered joists can be secured somehow to that rim joist. The sistered joists were all fastened to one another correctly with nails and construction adhesive and all, it was just the ends that made me think twice.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Looks like you're overthinking the inspector's mind. They don't look that carefully. One inspector did point to a fire block that had a corner split off because of the nail, but as long as you don't compromise the connections, you're fine.
The lumber's edge that is split along all nails or toe nails that are too far from the edge (so that only 1/2 or so inches may be sticking into the connecting lumber) are compromised connections.
If you can't use nails, you can use wood screws, esp when it is not load bearing. Predrilling and angle drill make it very easy. Also 16d nails are not used often in a home building. Use galvi twist 10d nails - it's all around nails for me.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

carpdad said:


> Looks like you're overthinking the inspector's mind. They don't look that carefully. One inspector did point to a fire block that had a corner split off because of the nail, but as long as you don't compromise the connections, you're fine.
> The lumber's edge that is split along all nails or toe nails that are too far from the edge (so that only 1/2 or so inches may be sticking into the connecting lumber) are compromised connections.
> If you can't use nails, you can use wood screws, esp when it is not load bearing. Predrilling and angle drill make it very easy. Also 16d nails are not used often in a home building. Use galvi twist 10d nails - it's all around nails for me.


Yeah, I really do overthink everything. I just have this dread that I make one little mistake, but do it all over, like using the wrong nails or something and then be told I have to rip everything out.

So let's just say I am toe nailing a stud to a bottom plate, but maybe started the nails too high so like you said, not enough nail penatrated that bottom plate... maybe on just this one stud. Or maybe the nails are too low and kind of split the end of that stud a bit. Then the inspector notices. Does he make you replace the stud? Or would I just be able to leave what's there and shoot a few extra nails in that are correct? Just out of curiosity, I wanted to know the process with something like that.

As for the 16d nails, I read that most carpenters use 16d almost exclusively. That way there's never any worry if a strong enough nail was used... even when sistering two joists together or when face nailing studs to one another. I heard they just cinch over the part of the nail protruding the other side.

I myself have been sticking to 10d common for most of my wall framing. 16d's I like for sistering joists. I looked at ring shank and twist nails but since I don't do this for an living, I tried to stick to whatever the IRC 2009 calls for in those tables or if I'm using any type of hanger or metal connector I go with the specs on the Simpson Strong Tie website for that particular connector. Again, I didn't want to take chance and be told I did it all wrong everwhere or something. It truly is my worst nightmare.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

carpdad said:


> Looks like you're overthinking the inspector's mind. They don't look that carefully. One inspector did point to a fire block that had a corner split off because of the nail, but as long as you don't compromise the connections, you're fine.
> The lumber's edge that is split along all nails or toe nails that are too far from the edge (so that only 1/2 or so inches may be sticking into the connecting lumber) are compromised connections.
> If you can't use nails, you can use wood screws, esp when it is not load bearing. Predrilling and angle drill make it very easy. Also 16d nails are not used often in a home building. Use galvi twist 10d nails - it's all around nails for me.


Sorry, another thing. So you would just use screws for the blocking in my case? Forget the metal connectors? Toe nail the screws to the rim joist on that end, 3 screws on 1 side and 2 on the other maybe? What size/length screws would you use and how far away to start them from the end of the blocking to make sure they don't come out on the other side of that rim joist?

If I stuck with the connectors, being over kill or not, would that pass inspection? Can I just use one for each piece of blocking just on one side, or pairs? 

At least with the connectors I just have to drill straight back to the rim joist and 90deg to the blocking, and not at any angles and no predrilling. I feel like it would go quicker for me personally. I have about 50pcs of blocking to do, 25 on each end of the house. Doing single connectors and not pairs would just save me money as these things cost $3.11 a piece. Definitely overkill but just easier for me. And I don't have to think twice or worry about drilling all the way through and out the back of the rim joist this way.

Thanks so much.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

I have no solid suggestion except to say in my are there is no "the inspector" every guy might tell you something different on little things. Big things they seem to be on the same page more or less but not little things. 

And in my area the worst thing you can do is ask an inspector "where is that in the book?" You might as well ask him if his wife is a pole dancer. 

We used to operate on the assumption they like to find something wrong so you try to leave something minor but obvious they can find that you can fix on the spot. :whistling2:


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

craig11152 said:


> I have no solid suggestion except to say in my are there is no "the inspector" every guy might tell you something different on little things. Big things they seem to be on the same page more or less but not little things.
> 
> And in my area the worst thing you can do is ask an inspector "where is that in the book?" You might as well ask him if his wife is a pole dancer.
> 
> We used to operate on the assumption they like to find something wrong so you try to leave something minor but obvious they can find that you can fix on the spot. :whistling2:


Yeah, that make a lot of sense. I know they all have their own pet peeves about certain things. I always brace myself for the worst, but so far the several inspectors that have come out for things have been really nice. They picked on some things that a contractor did, or did not do, I should say. It was little stuff and easily remedied. I'm just worried about my turn, the stuff that I have been doing.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> 1: Can I just use one on just one side of the blocking which meets the rim joist instead of a pair. Will it pass inspection? (I will be end nailing the other side to the joist through the side of the joist into the end of the blocking)


If you can stagger the blocking and end nail, that should be fine. The inspector isn't likely to make you take it all down, but he could make you add fasteners. 

The sistered joist should also be face nailed into the joist next to it, staggered, so combining that with the method you describe at the rim should be plenty. Through-bolts should be allowable, as well.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

IMO, the brackets are an over-kill. Blocking is toe-nailed per code when other side is inaccessible. 2x10 is overkill, as it is not supporting floor loads, but acting as a nailer to hold wall plumb- a non-bearing wall at that. IMO. 2x4 blocking, flat -will work fine. Ask the BI, if worried- by phone- before you start. 

"
28 Built-up girders and beams, 2-inch lumber layers 10d (3" × 0.128") Nail each layer as follows: 
32" o.c. at top and bottom and staggered. Two nails at ends 
and at each splice." As you have a beam with the sistered one, not a* header *that requires closer fastening. 

IMO, if worried, just use an A34; http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ltp4-ltp5-a34-a35.asp attached to the top of the 2x4 before installing. Don't forget to use foil-faced foamboard on the rims before you add the new wall for ease of installation- *pp. 6 and 7;* http://www.resnet.us/uploads/docume...eng-Cao-How_Much_is_the_Air_Infiltration.pdf; 

Gary


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> IMO, the brackets are an over-kill. Blocking is toe-nailed per code when other side is inaccessible. 2x10 is overkill, as it is not supporting floor loads, but acting as a nailer to hold wall plumb- a non-bearing wall at that. IMO. 2x4 blocking, flat -will work fine. Ask the BI, if worried- by phone- before you start.
> 
> "
> 28 Built-up girders and beams, 2-inch lumber layers 10d (3" × 0.128") Nail each layer as follows:
> ...


Gary, you are awesome! That really never even crossed my mind. 2x4's laying flat would make life so much easier. Just cutting the 2x10's to fit right plus having to shave them off a bit to fit height-wise was such pain. I only dry fitted 2 in there before I posted my question thank goodness. I'm gonna give the inspector a call and try to explain as you suggested to be sure.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Just tell him ceiling backing to keep the wall below in-line, next to concrete foundation wall in basement. Might go 24" on center...ask if you can use some rigid foamboard (1/2" XPS faced) for an air/moisture/thermal barrier under a non-treated wood bottom plate. Ask requirements for Tapcon on-center fastening to slab. 

Gary


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> Just tell him ceiling backing to keep the wall below in-line, next to concrete foundation wall in basement. Might go 24" on center...ask if you can use some rigid foamboard (1/2" XPS faced) for an air/moisture/thermal barrier under a non-treated wood bottom plate. Ask requirements for Tapcon on-center fastening to slab.
> 
> Gary


Thanks again Gary, I really appreciate so much.

If I have another question on blocking under a pocket door opening that's in a load bearing wall, can I ask in this thread or should I start a new one? I feel like I'm abusing these forums with all my questions.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Ask away, plenty of experienced respondents here...

Gary


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Cool, ok like I said I already did some blocking under a pocket door opening that's in a load bearing wall. The jack studs and kings studs in the opening did not exactly fall over a joist below, but in between two. This was the same on both sides. The span is kinda large because of the pocket door, about 61". I took two 2x10's and glued them together and cut them to 14.5" and end nailed them in between the two pairs of joists. Then I did some x-bracing in between all the other joist in between the two solid blockings.

In hindsight I feel like I should have used hangers on the double solid blocking and probably should have sistered the joists on each side of each. I didn't do it that way originally since I felt is was way overkill. What I have now is probably overkill already too.

What is the right way to do this? Would you even do any blocking at all or just leave it with nothing under there. I felt like those jack studs and king studs needed something under them, but maybe not?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> Just tell him ceiling backing to keep the wall below in-line, next to concrete foundation wall in basement. Might go 24" on center...ask if you can use some rigid foamboard (1/2" XPS faced) for an air/moisture/thermal barrier under a non-treated wood bottom plate. Ask requirements for Tapcon on-center fastening to slab.
> 
> Gary


This is what I wound up doing. Just end-nailing a flat 2x4 on the joist side with two 16d nails and I used two #10 3" construction screws going down through the 2x4 into the double plate which is on top of the concrete block. The 16d's too much? Are they too close to the bottom edge of the 2x10 joist? I figured I would use them since I am only using two nails.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> What is the right way to do this? Would you even do any blocking at all or just leave it with nothing under there. I felt like those jack studs and king studs needed something under them, but maybe not?


What I can see from the photos:

You have a conventionally framed roof, with a ceiling bearing on a wall at the 2nd floor, with a fairly sizable LVL header above the door. The load on that wall is ceiling (if that is attic without storage). The header seems more than up to the task. The 2x header over the opening itself is convention, blocking, it carries nothing. It's not clear if the ceiling extends beyond the header to the right?

If your measurements are accurate, then the wall is carried by the floor system below. There is some sort of beam (flush) just out of the picture? You have blocking between the joists already, so additional blocking isn't required. (The basement/first floor has a garage?)

To answer the question: You don't need to do anything unless there is a problem. Your building appears well constructed for the time it was built. (Year?) You're reading posts about problems other people have, and thinking you have it too. That building had floor deflection due to roof load and improper blocking. (I know what you are reading, I wrote it. The solution is only your solution if the problem is your problem.) You don't have roof load. Your wall acts as a beam--and it distributes the load across the floor system. You're fine.

What is the beam in the foreground at the basement/first floor?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> What I can see from the photos:
> 
> You have a conventionally framed roof, with a ceiling bearing on a wall at the 2nd floor, with a fairly sizable LVL header above the door. The load on that wall is ceiling (if that is attic without storage). The header seems more than up to the task. The 2x header over the opening itself is convention, blocking, it carries nothing. It's not clear if the ceiling extends beyond the header to the right?
> 
> ...


The house was built around 1965 I think. That beam is something I had put in. It's a steel I-Beam with LVL sandwiched inside. Originally there were multiple lally columns downstairs with a very large dropped beam spanning across. That was put in to eliminate the dropped beam and all the lally columns. That area down there used to be half family room, half two door garage. I'm building a detached garage out back and moving the kitchen and dining room down to where the garage was and closing it off.

I attached some pics of the new and old beam. I couldn't find a pic with clear view of the new beam here at work, but you get the idea I'm sure.

The reason for that LVL there in that pocket door was I just had left over 9-1/2" x 3" LVL. I had a lot left over actually, I used it wherever I needed an extra beefy header like over two pocket doors and a double door for the master bedroom. Way overkill, yes, but I figured I might as well make use of it. That header was a weird measurement after I put the pocket door in, it was like 8" high or something if I recall so I just ripped the LVL to fit.

As for the blocking under the pocket door, that's new that I put in after I did the pocket door. In the pic you see other x-bracing in the background, that was there already. I just put two pieces of solid blocking under the jack studs of the pocket door opening above, and added x-bracing in between. I thought if I ever did use that attic for storage, I didn't want anything sagging later on... especially since the pocket door relies on a rolling door in a track. I want to make sure that door rolls nice and smooth and doesn't get wonky over time.

So I guess none of that extra blocking and stuff was needed? Like you said the weight gets distributed by the wall down to the floor system. What I did won't hurt any right? Like I didn't weaken any joists below with it or anything?

Does my pocket door framing look okay?  I tried to be super neat with everything since I'm really new to all of this. That x-bracing was a pain too till I figured out the correct method of getting the angles right. Now it's a piece of cake!


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> I couldn't find a pic with clear view of the new beam here at work, but you get the idea I'm sure.


As is often the case, there is more to the problem than initially stated. If you had the beam installed, was an engineer involved? If so, you should be fine. If not, then _consult with an engineer. _

Why take two photos and specifically exclude the beam you added from both? You ask if the blocking should have been done differently, but I'm learning that wasn't the real question. 

The door header appears over-framed--its sufficiency has never been the question, as you know. (Over-building adds unnecessary dead load which needs to be accounted for.) It makes me wonder what you are planning for the attic? If you aren't working with an engineer, you should be.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> As is often the case, there is more to the problem than initially stated. If you had the beam installed, was an engineer involved? If so, you should be fine. If not, then _consult with an engineer. _
> 
> Why take two photos and specifically exclude the beam you added from both? You ask if the blocking should have been done differently, but I'm learning that wasn't the real question.
> 
> The door header appears over-framed--its sufficiency has never been the question, as you know. (Over-building adds unnecessary dead load which needs to be accounted for.) It makes me wonder what you are planning for the attic? If you aren't working with an engineer, you should be.


Hey keymaster I don't think I'm quite following. My question is about the blocking that I did under the pocket door, not the beam. I didn't like purposely take pics to leave that out of view or anything to trick anyone. I remotely connected to my PC at home and uploaded these to Imgur:

http://imgur.com/a/K8u0z#0

These are pics I took while they were doing the work. All the footings on the columns are all patched with concrete now. I did have an engineer size up the correct beam, submitted the plans to the twp, got approval and the permit, got a license contractor to do this part of the job (too much for me to even think about doing on my own), and had that part inspected already. That beam is all said and done with. This imgur album will be good, you guys can see the whole downstairs.

That beam really didn't have anything to do with my blocking question I didn't think, sorry for any misunderstanding. That steel I-beam is not directly under the pocket door. My additional blocking is directly underneath.

And as for the LVL header... no I don't have any plans on doing anything weird or crazy in the attic. I just used it cause it was there, like I said... leftovers from other things. I feel it was easier to use instead of gluing 2x10's up with a 1/2" ply in between and stuff... just cut and fit and that was it.

I hired the engineer through my architect who drew up the plans for the whole house. I wasn't about to call him for silly questions about how to frame things properly that he'll prob say I should hire a contractor to do all the work anyway. I'm just doing the simple stuff, stumbling a bit on the way yes, but I think I'm doing okay. Just simple framing of interior walls, installing an attic ladder, etc.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> That beam really didn't have anything to do with my blocking question I didn't think, sorry for any misunderstanding. That steel I-beam is not directly under the pocket door. My additional blocking is directly underneath.
> 
> And as for the LVL header... no I don't have any plans on doing anything weird or crazy in the attic. I just used it cause it was there, like I said... leftovers from other things. I feel it was easier to use instead of gluing 2x10's up with a 1/2" ply in between and stuff... just cut and fit and that was it.
> 
> I hired the engineer through my architect who drew up the plans for the whole house. I wasn't about to call him for silly questions about how to frame things properly that he'll prob say I should hire a contractor to do all the work anyway. I'm just doing the simple stuff, stumbling a bit on the way yes, but I think I'm doing okay. Just simple framing of interior walls, installing an attic ladder, etc.


 When you ask about blocking, in your mind that's the only question. I'm thinking "what is carrying the wall?" I didn't see the beam immediately--but I knew there had to be one. The central beam shortens the span, allows the floor to carry the wall. It's not necessarily how it would be framed today, but if an engineer looked at the question and didn't have a problem with it, I consider it solved. 

There's two parts to blocking, one is transfer of load, another is stabilization. The only requirement there is keeping joists from twisting. With all the hangers that's not really a concern. The requirements were different in 1965, but your floor looks sound. 

LVL are common for headers today, again, just not in an older building which is why that stood out as new construction. Nothing wrong with using them. Your door looks very well framed, you can rightfully be proud of it. :thumbsup: It does look to have a level of attention that only a homeowner would give it. I'm the same way when I build.

If the attic is to have storage (and/or live load), and that storage is _new_, you should bother your architect with that one. The floor is supporting the wall/ceiling--it doesn't appear designed for more than that.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

What is the span of the ceiling joists (2x6 ?) above the pocket dr. - from exterior wall to next wall- the one not pictured;









I would block the ceiling joist bay at the sistered joist- to help carry the load on each side. I don't see the header even required unless the cj's are over-spanned.

Gary


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> What is the span of the ceiling joists (2x6 ?)



Good question Gary. Scale is hard to read in a photo. I thought that was an 11-1/4" LVL (at least) and maybe 2x10s? It may very well be 2x6. I thought the photo was taken from further away, and the ceiling was higher. 

---

For Sonnaps: this is all IRC says about bridging, unless you are in seismic zone, or have local amendments.*R502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.* Joists shall be supported laterally at the ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mm) nominal in thickness; or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, or to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to prevent rotation.
​"Or otherwise," leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I think your existing bridging is sufficient. Adding bridging under a header/opening serves no additional purpose.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> What is the span of the ceiling joists (2x6 ?) above the pocket dr. - from exterior wall to next wall- the one not pictured;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, those are 2x6's. That sistered joist as you see stops on top of the pocket door and starts on the wall you can't see. From the exterior wall side to the wall you can't see, it's about 14ft. That one sistered joist was added to open up a space for attic stairs. It's acting as part of one doubled trimmer which is at the front of the opening for the attic stairs and another double is at the back. Double headers on each side too... well "sort of". Quite honestly this is a whole other thing that I think I messed up on for real and I want to kick myself every time I look at it. I think I had the ideas of headers and trimmers reversed in this case when I was reading the diagram in the IRC code. It's because my opening is going perpendicular to the joists, not parallel to them. I think I was supposed to really have a continuous double header on each side of that opening (parallel to the walls) since the opening is 30" x 54". Over 4ft on the 54" long side. Maybe even use hangers?

When I installed the attic stairs (this was like the first thing I ever did framing wise so I really should have found this forum earlier :whistling2. I had cut each 2x6 joist one at a time and put blocking in between to kind of hold everything up and keep it from sagging down. Once the opening was cut then I put one continuous 2x6 up against what I just cut and the blocking. See pic. I think it's wrong, I kind of know it's wrong, I was just going to see what the inspector said if anything. It really is solid, and I laid 2x6's flat up in the attic to firm everything up.

Ugh... let the scolding begin.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> I think it's wrong, I kind of know it's wrong, I was just going to see what the inspector said if anything. It really is solid, and I laid 2x6's flat up in the attic to firm everything up.


I'm not concerned about the stair framing, actually. It would have been nice to have a continuous double header, and block over the beam. I think what you did works fine, but the inspector is the one who will decide. 

I'm more concerned with the "flat 2x6" part, and also the 2x6 joists, generally. An inspector might have issue with the flat 2x6s being used to stabilize the opening. Why is it necessary? 

What is the plan for the attic, since you've obviously added stairs? What centers are the ceiling joists? (I've given up trying to gauge scale.) Was the attic previously occupied space?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> I'm not concerned about the stair framing, actually. It would have been nice to have a continuous double header, and block over the beam. I think what you did works fine, but the inspector is the one who will decide.
> 
> I'm more concerned with the "flat 2x6" part, and also the 2x6 joists, generally. An inspector might have issue with the flat 2x6s being used to stabilize the opening. Why is it necessary?
> 
> What is the plan for the attic, since you've obviously added stairs? What centers are the ceiling joists? (I've given up trying to gauge scale.) Was the attic previously occupied space?



I was going to lay some 3/4" plywood up there in a few areas, not all over though. Just a few to have a straight path to the new air handler for the AC. It used to be behind you if you were standing at the foot of the stairs/ladder facing it about to walk up. It's going to be moved to the other side behind the stair opening to meet code as far as having a clear path and pad to work on front of the appliance. There were already flat long 2x4's up there like spanning the length of the house spaced about 6' apart... I guess that's how they did it to make aure the joists don't sag or twist back then? Instead of cutting any out of the way for the path and the pad, I just added more 16" on center where the plywood will go down. I did the same with 2x6's around the stair opening which will have some plywood too. I guess the best answer would be no reason, really... just because, and it felt like it would sure everything up and the plywood needed to attach to something. Not directly to the 2x6 joists since I didn't want to cut any of the flat 2x4's up there.

I can tell you I had two quite large guys up there who came to remove the old air handler. They were standing right on the edge of the opening all around while working. I watched to see if it flexed or bounced and there was nothing. I was so relieved, lol. It's definitely solid.

Just so you can picture the scale of things, that whole ceiling is 2x6's 16" on center. The house is only 26' x 46', 2 stories with 8' ceilings. From the top of the 2x6 ceiling joists to the ridge beam is only 5'. It's not a big house or a big attic... definitely wasn't occupied space and never will be. The air handler will be the only thing going up there, and maybe a few boxes of junk some day if possible but not like major storage or anything.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

IMO, the (power) blocking rather than hangers may pass inspection as the span carrying 3' of drywall with 2x6 is fine to the next bearing wall. The point load of the new door header trimmers with only a block to distribute the loads (to adjoining joists) may be questioned by HIM (BI), lol. The lateral resistance is fine as only 2x10 joist/rafters require it. http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_par032.htm


You are confusing "floor openings" with needed "roof and ceiling
framing of openings; remember "trimmers" are always on the sides (like a door/window) and "headers" are top/bottom of opening like a window.http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_par034.htm


Though IMO, add blocking where the AC sits, on the bearing walls, to prevent overturning of load. Cover wires near hole; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_38_par007.htm

Need a light near the unit, a walkway 24" wide to it, etc. Check locally.

Gary


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> I was going to lay some 3/4" plywood up there in a few areas, not all over though. Just a few to have a straight path to the new air handler for the AC. It used to be behind you if you were standing at the foot of the stairs/ladder facing it about to walk up. It's going to be moved to the other side behind the stair opening to meet code as far as having a clear path and pad to work on front of the appliance.
> 
> Just so you can picture the scale of things, that whole ceiling is 2x6's 16" on center. The house is only 26' x 46', 2 stories with 8' ceilings. From the top of the 2x6 ceiling joists to the ridge beam is only 5'. It's not a big house or a big attic... definitely wasn't occupied space and never will be. The air handler will be the only thing going up there, and maybe a few boxes of junk some day if possible but not like major storage or anything.



It's always good to have equipment installers test out the structure for you--if they don't fall through, you know it's safe. I was off considerably in my estimation of the attic ceiling height. Like I said, I think the framing around the opening is fine, and the flat 2x6s aren't needed. (If they are needed, it would point to a problem in the framing that needs to be addressed.)

What does the framing look like in the area of the new air handler? You will want your architect or engineer to look at that, if you haven't already. Give them the model and specs. The structure should be designed to carry it. If the building is 26' x 46', the ceiling joists would span roughly 12'-6" to the center wall (inside of plates)?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> It's always good to have equipment installers test out the structure for you--if they don't fall through, you know it's safe. I was off considerably in my estimation of the attic ceiling height. Like I said, I think the framing around the opening is fine, and the flat 2x6s aren't needed. (If they are needed, it would point to a problem in the framing that needs to be addressed.)
> 
> What does the framing look like in the area of the new air handler? You will want your architect or engineer to look at that, if you haven't already. Give them the model and specs. The structure should be designed to carry it. If the building is 26' x 46', the ceiling joists would span roughly 12'-6" to the center wall (inside of plates)?


Something like that but not exactly half. The main structural support seems to be offset from downstairs to upstairs. I don't know the exact terminology or the best way to describe it, but... the large steel I-beam downstairs is not dead center of the house. It's about 12' from the front of the house and 14' from the back. The main supporting wall upstairs where the 2x6's meet and rest on is just reversed. 14' from the front and 12' to the back.

The air handler will sit right on top of that supporting wall upstairs, so I wasn't too worried about that. See pics.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> Something like that but not exactly half. The main structural support seems to be offset from downstairs to upstairs. I don't know the exact terminology or the best way to describe it, but... the large steel I-beam downstairs is not dead center of the house. It's about 12' from the front of the house and 14' from the back. The main supporting wall upstairs where the 2x6's meet and rest on is just reversed. 14' from the front and 12' to the back.
> 
> The air handler will sit right on top of that supporting wall upstairs, so I wasn't too worried about that. See pics.


How much does it weight? Depending on the size, it may need to be engineered.

Code allows the beam to be offset the depth of the floor for a parallel load bearing wall--and it seems you might be outside that limit. If your engineer signed off on it, you should be okay. The air handler sits on a wall, which sits possibly 24" off the beam? The handler should be supported on all four corners (the point loads aren't always equal). 

Are these your drawings?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> How much does it weight? Depending on the size, it may need to be engineered.
> 
> Code allows the beam to be offset the depth of the floor for a parallel load bearing wall--and it seems you might be outside that limit. If your engineer signed off on it, you should be okay. The air handler sits on a wall, which sits possibly 24" off the beam? The handler should be supported on all four corners (the point loads aren't always equal).
> 
> Are these your drawings?



Those drawings are the blueprints from the architect. I just drew over them with the red and green to show the locations of the different rooms as they were original to the house. There's nothing about HVAC on them. The old air handler sat more in the middle of the hallway before. It was inline with the closets on that bedroom on the upper right, smack in the middle of the hallway. I will definitely get in touch with the architect and address this. When you explain it the way you did I see what you mean. Just the fact that it's sitting on the top of that wall won't mean as much as I thought it did.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> The old air handler sat more in the middle of the hallway before. It was inline with the closets on that bedroom on the upper right, smack in the middle of the hallway. I will definitely get in touch with the architect and address this. When you explain it the way you did I see what you mean. Just the fact that it's sitting on the top of that wall won't mean as much as I thought it did.


I would put one edge on the wall plate, one edge on a header on the shorter span. The old equipment was on the longer side. Offset to one side--reinforce one side. (The first floor might be strengthened as well, it depends on how much it weighs.) Your architect/engineer will know what to do.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> I would put one edge on the wall plate, one edge on a header on the shorter span. The old equipment was on the longer side. Offset to one side--reinforce one side. (The first floor might be strengthened as well, it depends on how much it weighs.) Your architect/engineer will know what to do.


When you say header on the shorter span, do you mean lay some sort of built up beam or LVL across and on top of the 2x6's in the attic? That way the weight is distributed across that system of joists on that side where no wall is underneath? Would that go all the way to the exterior on the one side and stop at the wall where the one bedroom door is? I want to mention that to the architect.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

So I spoke to the HVAC company before I asked the architect anything to see how much the air handler weighs. It weighs 194lbs. When I asked him what kind of platform or pad he wants up there for the unit, he said no platform needed at all since they prefer to hang them from the roof with threaded rods along with a secondary drain pan.

Now I definitely need to explain all this to the architect. 200lbs isn't alot, but hanging from my roof it might be. My roof only has a 2x8 ridge beam and 2x6's for rafters... so idk.

In case you guys were curios, it's a Lennox CBX27UH-042 High-Efficiency Air Handler.

I'll let you guys know what the architect says just for closure.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> When you say header on the shorter span, do you mean lay some sort of built up beam or LVL across and on top of the 2x6's in the attic? That way the weight is distributed across that system of joists on that side where no wall is underneath? Would that go all the way to the exterior on the one side and stop at the wall where the one bedroom door is? I want to mention that to the architect.



No beam in the sense you mean. I'm assuming the handler doesn't conform ideally to the spacing of the joists. A header under the far edge of the handler, running perpendicular to double joists that carry the weight to the far wall. Stiffening the area a joist bay wider than the unit, and making sure all corners are fully supported.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> So I spoke to the HVAC company before I asked the architect anything to see how much the air handler weighs. It weighs 194lbs. When I asked him what kind of platform or pad he wants up there for the unit, he said no platform needed at all since they prefer to hang them from the roof with threaded rods along with a secondary drain pan.
> 
> Now I definitely need to explain all this to the architect. 200lbs isn't alot, but hanging from my roof it might be. My roof only has a 2x8 ridge beam and 2x6's for rafters... so idk.
> 
> ...


Hanging is fine, same structural concerns apply. 194 lbs isn't as bad as it could be. You need a 220v, with a shutoff.


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## Knucklez (Oct 21, 2007)

i wish my basement framing was built half as good/strong as yours...


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

I know we kind of side tracked from the original post. I just wanted to clear one thing up before I continue my blocking

This is what I wound up doing. Just end-nailing a flat 2x4 on the joist side with two 16d nails and I used two #10 3" construction screws going down through the 2x4 into the double plate which is on top of the concrete block. The 16d's too much? Are they too close to the bottom edge of the 2x10 joist? Will it want to make the 2x10 joist spilt along that edge? I am pre drilling just to be careful. I figured I would use 16d's since I am only using two nails. I think it will be fine... but code wise and experience wise I ask you guys....


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> I know we kind of side tracked from the original post. I just wanted to clear one thing up before I continue my blocking
> 
> This is what I wound up doing. Just end-nailing a flat 2x4 on the joist side with two 16d nails and I used two #10 3" construction screws going down through the 2x4 into the double plate which is on top of the concrete block. The 16d's too much? Are they too close to the bottom edge of the 2x10 joist? Will it want to make the 2x10 joist spilt along that edge? I am pre drilling just to be careful. I figured I would use 16d's since I am only using two nails. I think it will be fine... but code wise and experience wise I ask you guys....



I'm not clear on the reason for the blocking? Looking at your first post you reference "joist to sill or girder attachment," item 23 (which is 24 in the 2012 code). 602.3 is wall framing; the table/schedule for attachment does mention floors. Bridging would be 502.7.1; it is fairly loosely specified. It's not clear if you are looking at a particular code section for this. 

I think you're okay blocking the way you are, don't get too near the edge of the joist. Usually the blocking isn't done flat.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> I'm not clear on the reason for the blocking? Looking at your first post you reference "joist to sill or girder attachment," item 23 (which is 24 in the 2012 code). 602.3 is wall framing; the table/schedule for attachment does mention floors. Bridging would be 502.7.1; it is fairly loosely specified. It's not clear if you are looking at a particular code section for this.
> 
> I think you're okay blocking the way you are, don't get too near the edge of the joist. Usually the blocking isn't done flat.


Gary mentions it in post #8. The blocking is just going to act as a nailer to keep the new wall I'm building in front of the concrete block plumb. Just something to nail to since the new wall falls between two joists running parallel. I googled it too after he mentioned just using flat 2x4's instead of short pieces of 2x10's as I was going to do originally. It seems common specifically in bastments in this exact case. That new wall is not load bearing and I just need a point of attachment above... and the space is awkward to work in.

The 2x4's work out great since it leaves the joist bay open to run electrical or plumbing or what have you later on too... and it's much easier to do in that tight area than my original 2x10's were.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm not doing the wedge block like in the pic. I have a double sill plate in my case so I'm just using two #10 3" screws straight down on that part.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> The blocking is just going to act as a nailer to keep the new wall I'm building in front of the concrete block plumb. Just something to nail to since the new wall falls between two joists running parallel.


Okay, I see what you are doing. I thought you were trying to comply with the code, and this pertained to earlier discussion of bridging. Regarding blocking for new framing attachment, no specific code requirement on the form that has to take. It has to be per the sections on floors and walls, generally. The attachment of the blocking itself should be per the schedule, size of blocking per the section(s).



> Blocking between joists or rafters to top plate, toe nail 3-8d (2½" × 0.113")--602.3(1)


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Knucklez said:


> i wish my basement framing was built half as good/strong as yours...


Trust me, those 3x6 steel posts the engineer called for are way overkill. Even the contractor who put them in laughed a bit. On the other hand, I like overkill, so it was fine with me.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

You can also toe-nail the 2x4s to the joist if fearing splitting the joist with two fasteners close together in same grain. Face-nailed 10d should work, check with local AHJ. Or 8d toe-nails. Just don't drill holes or notch in bottom of joist, per Code;http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_par030.htm

Gary


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok, so finally heard back from the architect, I figured I would post what he said.

He's a little dry and stubborn, just FYI. He doesn't think it should be hung at all, even after I told him the benefits mentioned by the HVAC company about the unit being quieter and the hanging helping with any vibration. All I got was this....

"Set HVAC unit on plywood base on 8’ min. long 2x4 studs @ 16’ oc on edge perpendicular to ceiling joists. Maintain clearance around unit as req’d by manufacturer. 36” min at access area."


So I guess that's that. I figure that 8' span really spreads out he weight no matter where it goes so it should be fine.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> Ok, so finally heard back from the architect, I figured I would post what he said.
> 
> He's a little dry and stubborn, just FYI. He doesn't think it should be hung at all, even after I told him the benefits mentioned by the HVAC company about the unit being quieter and the hanging helping with any vibration. All I got was this....
> 
> ...



Interesting that he doesn't give a width. Eight feet by...48? It will work. (Ceiling/floor are exposed structure, I would build it up.)

If you don't like the solution you can always ask the manufacturer to provide details/drawings for suspension. If the building dept. requires it to be stamped, send the details to the architect or engineer.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

keymaster said:


> Interesting that he doesn't give a width. Eight feet by...48? It will work. (Ceiling/floor are exposed structure, I would build it up.)
> 
> If you don't like the solution you can always ask the manufacturer to provide details/drawings for suspension. If the building dept. requires it to be stamped, send the details to the architect or engineer.


The unit is 24" deep I think. I was going to do at least 32" to get an even spacing if doing 16" on center 2x4's. I will definitely look to the manufacturer and see what size drain pan goes underneath and prob go from there. Maybe 48" will work better.

I'm fine with it resting on the attic floor. The hanging kind of made me think twice anyway since my roof rafters are only 2x6's. I wish they were at least 2x8's but the roof has survived 40+ winters with all sorts of snow load and hurricanes and such and it looks just fine still.


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## keymaster (Jul 28, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> The unit is 24" deep I think. I was going to do at least 32" to get an even spacing if doing 16" on center 2x4's. I will definitely look to the manufacturer and see what size drain pan goes underneath and prob go from there. Maybe 48" will work better.
> 
> I'm fine with it resting on the attic floor. The hanging kind of made me think twice anyway since my roof rafters are only 2x6's. I wish they were at least 2x8's but the roof has survived 40+ winters with all sorts of snow load and hurricanes and such and it looks just fine still.



32" should be okay, it's the length that matters (48" width of sheet of plywood). You can always mount the unit on vibration dampening feet--on the unit/plywood side. (Talk to your hvac installers.) Cork on the other if you want.

I seem to remember you saying there's only 5' from ridge to floor, so hanging makes less sense. (Still, if you prefer it, sister the 2x6 rafters both sides of the roof--four total new members--and hang "collar ties" between them to frame a suspended platform.)


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds as if he is using the 2x4's to distribute the concentrated loads across the ceiling joists for less weight on each one- more of a uniform load than concentrated point loads. Add a couple rows of mid-span bridging; if worried; https://books.google.com/books?id=DWsmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA749&lpg=PA749&dq=bridging+to+strengthen+a+floor&source=bl&ots=it36ZbRj6b&sig=RsHU_VEi-ZM0lLAHq69yvvy8Iy8&hl=en&ei=MNHwSdekHZL0tQOA3Z3QCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=drilling%20wood%20columns&f=false

Or solid blocking with the plywood, 66% stronger than x-bridging.

Gary


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