# This isn't the proper way to roof, right?



## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

My fiance and I are new homeowners. We had a tree fall through our rafters, and now have a deadline from our insurance company to get the damage fixed. 

The roof had been in semi-lousy shape when we bought the house. So once the storm did more damage, we just decided to replace the whole thing.

The roofer finally did a day's work on our roof yesterday. And I'm not at all satisfied. 

I'm hoping some more experienced people here can tell me if I'm nuts, or if this looks like very bad work to them, too!

Here are three examples:

The new bead board didn't match the old bead board's width, so they just put in filler pieces of wood. Also, fascia has a gap, through which I can see sunlight.










This is looking down out of a dormer window, where the blue house shingles meet the roof line below. Why can I see nails and the top of a course of shingles?










And this shingle is cracked, right? I've already seen a bunch like that.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...8A114E94A869E0A4692BF15BE9196&selectedIndex=2

Can not see a crack in that last picture, I do see what just looks like scrap piece of shingle near the butt joint.

Yes there should be no gap behind the facia.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

No wall flashing?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Sure hope you have not paid them yet.
100% chance of it leaking where that flashing is missing.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

On the bead board.....assuming your existing is wood and can be painted....once you toss a coat of paint on it....I doubt anyone will notice....

On that second pic....you need flashing that goes under the blue shingles and then sits on top of the asphalt shingles....like the guys said....without it....it will leak.

Last pic....it looks like you have dimensional shingles....that is just a strip off one of them


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

The filler strips shouldn't be a problem. It's hard to exactly match old stuff, and once painted, it won't be very noticeable. Getting an exact match would likely be more expensive (custom milling) and unless you requested and paid for that, you probably got what you paid for. It would have been nice if they explained that to you though. 

The gap behind the fascia where light is shining through is probably a problem. You need to look at the area above that to see how the light is managing to shine through there. Ideally, you would have also liked to have that fascia primed on all sides before installation, but that's not absolutely required. Are they finished working on the roof? If not, that could explain the light coming through. 

The flashing (or lack of) at the wall is probably your biggest potential issue. There may be something there that we can't see, but I would be concerned about that. As far as the nail heads go, that's not uncommon but they should be sealed. Personally, I would have cut and glued a strip of shingles over that.

That shingle in the last pic may be normal (it's hard to tell). To get the random look, some of the shingle manufactures will actually end a shingle with a very small piece of laminated shingle like that.

It looks like you got a budget shingle job. You don't get perfection with a budget job so don't nitpick everything, but you should have expectations of a roof that's installed to code and isn't going to leak. The wall flashing is potentially a serious problem and should be checked out (if you can't see any flashing there, call the roofer out to explain). And I have no explanation as to how you can see light behind your fascia if the roof is finished, so that should also be checked out.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Pic # 1 ; A coat of paint should work.Remember the old has been subjected to the elements and has bowed and is not as flat as the new.So without replacing everything there will be a difference between the 2.I am really not liking the way they intersected the 2 connecting ends.I like to miter mine,,,much cleaner and nicer.But it looks like that's the way it was before it was repaired. 

Pic # 2 ; Looks like a rookie mistake of knife handling.Chances are a shingle was cut over this one and the blade cut both shingles.Best thing to do should have been to use the sliced shingle in another area requiring a shorter shingle.Either that or the shingle was put in really tight causing a lift to that part of the shingle and instead of replacing the shingle they sliced that area causing the shingle to relax.

Pic # 3 ; It looks to me like there is flashing but instead of being exposed its nailed over with 2 courses of shingles.And its missing the top strip and that nail blow through looks fairly nasty.


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## RobertoAguiar (Dec 20, 2012)

I would be fairly upset with a job like this, seems like he was in a hurry and didnt pay much attention to the work he was doing. You should call another professional roofer to give you a second opinion about it, cause from what you show us we might think its aweful but maybe he did do it right and maybe not, i would get a second opinion from a professional. Im sure they can do free estimates and opinions.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I appreciate all of your responses. So much! 

Those are just three examples of the MANY problems we're seeing on the house. The fascia boards are uneven and don't line up with one another at corners, shingles are sloping instead of straight in some places, they've left the job site a disaster (plastic shingle bags stuck in our trees, piles of new shingles stacked on the roof for days, and they keep dropping debris on our window AC and into our storm windows), and they aren't using the materials we were quoted in the contract (in one case, cutting straight shingles instead of installing proper GAF ridge caps).

We asked for a historically accurate repair, and we are paying SERIOUS money for this roof. Over $14k including the tree damage repair. It's a tough roofing job-- irregular roof with an extremely steep slope-- and we were cautioned about that when we had the house inspected before we bought it. 

But I won't accept anything less than a stellar job for what we're paying. And this is barely even acceptable, much less stellar.

Thank you guys for giving me the confidence to be demanding with the roofers. I'm not letting them back on the roof until we have a long, long talk! (If at all.)


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

PS: Just to give you a sense of the scope of the roofing job, here's the house from the front and from the side. "Irregular" is putting it mildly!


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

My main concern would be how improperly nailed the shingles appear to be. If that nail is indicative of the rest of the roof, you will have voided the shingle warranty. Anything more than 3/8" out of that red line is too high, and on a steep roof it wont take long before the lower piece of the shingles start falling out. Nailed as is, they are only held in by the adhesive strips. 

Covering the end-wall flashing( if its there) is acceptable, though not a best practice. 

The roof itself doesn't appear to be too hard or complicated, though perhaps high and steep roofs aren't common in your area.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1

Roofers wouldn't have very full weeks if they just did 5:12's with 2 sides. 

Not too concerned about the overhangs as many have mentioned. 

Nailing pattern and the nailing over of the flashing are not my favorite.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

This is very similar to a job we did 9 months ago. 15/12 pitch home built around 1890, 4 layers 2 comp over 2 wood shingle. Very similar bead board eves and we did a similar fix to what you got. I can't tell how much wood replacement you will have until its torn off. At that point i will give you the option, a repair like you have with standard materials as best as possible or milled to match. The $ for the milled work usually always has them going with option 1, the repair with readily available materials. Once painted it will look fine and for a lot cheaper depending on the amount of wood replacement needed. btw, this is the first job we did in so California where i actually see knob and tube...never seen it before except on TV  and i have been roofing here from 1985. Not too many "old" homes in orange county.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I hear you guys on the beadboard issue. It's 100-year-old board. I get that you can't just pop into any lumber yard and get the same size and same v-groove.

But we don't need to special-order mill all new soffits. It's maybe 15 linear feet, times two boards. How expensive do you guess would that be? $300 more? $500 more?


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## chitownken (Nov 22, 2012)

Priced some custom moldings a few years ago. $750 to make the knives, $1.50 per foot to mill, plus the cost of the raw wood.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Hundreds of feet would cost a lot, 15 feet not so much. Either way, I would have given you your options and gone in the direction you wanted. If it was over the front door get it milled, 2 story back of the house then i would be ok with what you got. If you have historically accurate written on the contract then i think it means milled to match existing regardless of location. 

It sounds like this is just a portion of your issues with the install. Hopefully they will work with you...i am sure they will if your holding $ still.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Those narrow strips of filler next to the soffit boards will twist out from existing space unless T&G'd in there, or solid backed with another surface and pin nailed every 6". Because they were not primed, seasonal humidity changes will move them even more. Fascia board should have been primed... Dormer rake wall/roof flashing appears to be a trim board? Closer picture would help. Missing roof/wall metal flashing at all areas though pic. is far away... Did they not vent anywhere- no intakes or exhaust?

Gary


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Bottom line is this,,,,,Steep roof,walkable roof,2 straight sides,dormers,turrets,flat roofs,shingles,shakes,metal,copper,aluminum,tile,slate,3/12,5/12,8/12,10/12,24/12+,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 story or more this guy knew what the job entitled.PERIOD.

Job complexity is a P.I.T.A but its what separates the true roofers from well,,,But seriously he knew what the job looked like so its on him.

Job complexity ? Basically don't take on a job that you are not qualified to do or is out of your league.

Not braggin but this job was very complex.And we knew what it took to do the job,,,and do it right.We didn't cry cuz it was super steep and multiple stories or that we had to redeck it,,,or the fact the material left NO room for error.And the custom copper work I did.We did the job because we agreed to do it and signed a contract stating we were qualified.

http://www.diychatroom.com/members/roofmaster417-81546/albums/steeper-better/


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

GBR in WA said:


> Those narrow strips of filler next to the soffit boards will twist out from existing space unless T&G'd in there, or solid backed with another surface and pin nailed every 6". Because they were not primed, seasonal humidity changes will move them even more. Fascia board should have been primed... Dormer rake wall/roof flashing appears to be a trim board? Closer picture would help. Missing roof/wall metal flashing at all areas though pic. is far away... Did they not vent anywhere- no intakes or exhaust?
> 
> Gary


You may be responding to the pictures of the full roof, from the front and side. If so, those are from two years ago. The new roofer has only done two days of work, and hasn't finished much. So I don't have much to show in pics yet, other than what I showed in the closeups.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes. I figured it was the old roof as the drip lined up on every other course, now arch. shingles. I just hope they cut out the bottom area for new metal flashing at the wall/roof and side-wall/rake roof as it looked nonexistent before. No continuous soffit venting near the fascia for optimum air-flow; scroll down to pp. 615+ http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8apR1RkUHUC&pg=PA606&dq=attic+airflow+with+gable+vents&lr=&as_brr=3&cd=13#v=onepage&q=attic%20airflow%20with%20gable%20vents&f=false

Gary
PS. I'd get a new roofer or re-write your contract.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

GBR in WA said:


> PS. I'd get a new roofer or re-write your contract.


Thank you for suggesting rewriting the contract. I actually hadn't thought of that, and it helped a lot. All of the suggestions here are helping me a lot!

We had the roofer over today, and he was defensive and rationalized everything. In the case of the warranty-voiding nail strike, he said "the company will look for anything to void the warranty. There is no way to keep from making a mistake here and there with a nail." So I said "so you wrote us a contract that included the manufacturer warranty on the roof, even though there is no way to install a roof without voiding the warranty?" He didn't follow my logic. 

Nor did he think the visible nail issues were indicative of the rest of the nails, which we can't see. He told me all of the rest of the nails were definitely fine. Apparently, he has x-ray vision.

There was actually flashing under the row of shingles in the picture I posted here. It was the original flashing that had been under the old roof. They yanked it up in order to remove the old roof, ran a row of new shingles under it, then bent it back into place, and ran a course of shingles on top of that. He seemed to think this was perfectly acceptable. Even though the flashing had giant nail holes, and two spots where it was completely split open and gnarled from where they ripped it out through the original nails! :furious:

When I was able to pull the top row of shingles off the roof with almost no effort, he simply said "well, it's not done yet!" I asked how it could possibly get better, and he said "we'll caulk it with...silicone." :laughing:

He is crazy. But we are, at least partially, over a barrel here.

So, we demanded that he address all of these issues. And that he write up a list of HOW he was going to address the issues, and sign it, and add it to the contract.

We're working on that list together right now. Wish me luck!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> ...
> 
> Not braggin but this job was very complex.And we knew what it took to do the job,,,and do it right.We didn't cry cuz it was super steep and multiple stories or that we had to redeck it,,,or the fact the material left NO room for error.And the custom copper work I did.We did the job because we agreed to do it and signed a contract stating we were qualified.


Do you ever do work in North Jersey?! That roof is just beautiful, and your attitude is precisely what we expect from the people we hire... and never, ever get! (I miss NYC so much.)


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Thank you for suggesting rewriting the contract. I actually hadn't thought of that, and it helped a lot. All of the suggestions here are helping me a lot!
> 
> We had the roofer over today, and he was defensive and rationalized everything. In the case of the warranty-voiding nail strike, he said "the company will look for anything to void the warranty. There is no way to keep from making a mistake here and there with a nail." So I said "so you wrote us a contract that included the manufacturer warranty on the roof, even though there is no way to install a roof without voiding the warranty?" He didn't follow my logic.
> 
> ...


First off,,,,Congrats on the "Letter of intent" contract amendment.You are one of the very few I have heard of that knew of and applied that course of action.

I have had my roofs inspected by many building departments,housing inspectors,insurance providers,engineers and several shingle manufactures including Certainteed,Owens Corning,GAF and Tamko.All of these officials have said the same thing.If code calls for a 5 fastener pattern then 4 of the 5 fasteners must be in the nail line for the pitch of the roof.

Steeper pitch roofs require a tighter multi fastener application closer to the exposure line.Lower slope roofs are a little more lax giving more of an area to apply the fasteners.To comply with warranty restrictions and requirements the fasteners must be properly seated against the shingle.Blow throughs better classified as "Overdriven",,High nails,,better classified as "Underdriven" Angled nails better classified as "Angle driven" Low nails better classified as "Exposed" "Shiners" are all certified ways to fail an installation inspection by any manufacture and building department.

It is equally important to choose a manufacture that offers an excellent warranty combined with a contractor who offers an excellent workmanship warranty.The reason contractors give a good warranty is to give the homeowner peace of mind.Its not for them to have to use it every time it rains or some high winds come in that is well below the materials capabilities.

To have a solid workmanship warranty and the ability to offer it,stand behind it and NOT have to use it you HAVE to have ;

1.Proper shingle application over proper underlayment over suitable decking.
2.Properly placed fasteners
3.Proper flashing
4.Proper Ventilation

And for the material manufacture to stand behind their material by warranty all of these (1,2,3,4) must be in place.

B.t.w,,,if someone is going to use improper fastening technique somewhere visible to your eyes,,,then why is he going to be selfish and put his most creative touches out of sight ?

I knew there was a couple courses over that apron flashing.That type of junk makes my blood boil.That is a very vulnerable area around the windows and it needs to be flashed properly with an apron.I could never understand why anyone would reuse flashing to begin with but to reuse it and blast some nails in it boggles my mind.

The siding along the flashing should have been removed and a new apron should have been installed.And there is a way to hide fasteners when installing aprons,,but you have to take the time to learn and apply the technique.

People who install that junk makes you wonder if they are the kind of guy to install something like that on his mothers house.


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## SuperJETT (Oct 27, 2012)

This is a great thread, please keep us updated how it works out and pics too.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

The thread is great because of YOU folks! I'm just the noob dealing with her first roofing job.

The roofer signed the contract amendment (or "Letter of Intent", thanks Roofmaster417!) this morning and is back on the roof fixing the issues and continuing the job. He's got more people here today, which is the first success. He himself has also been here today since the start of work. Which is a lot longer than he was here the first two days.

So...some positive movement there.

I had a followup question for you folks. I know that many people hope for their job to easily pass inspection by the town. But, I'm thinking that perhaps I should go down to the office beforehand and stress to them that we need them to be our heroes and catch anything that's amiss.

Is that pie-in-the-sky thinking? Or is it possible to make the building inspector your friend and get him/her to, in effect, advocate for your high standards? Do they look at where the nails are laid? Do they test if the shingles need hand sealing?

(If my question seems weird, it'd be useful to know that our town's code enforcement department couldn't quote me stair railing requirements without double checking the code. And they'd never heard of NJ's Rehabilitation Subcode. So...my confidence in them isn't very high!)


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

*More Pictures!*

Ok...so now I'm worried again. Here are pictures of the work they've been doing on the actual shingles. They don't look like they're staggered correctly to me. I read the GAF instructions. They're supposed to repeat every 5th row. This looks more like a random assemblage.

What do you folks think?










second picture removed


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I could probably nit pick this project to death,,,but I won't.But does that make me a bad guy ? Not sure but I can say that there are projects like these that are handled and approached much differently.Such as;

Not abiding by OSHA regulations revised fall protection/prevention for any pitch if the gutter height is more than 6 feet off the ground.

Not causing damage to the customers personal property or other structural components such as ummmm,,,the siding that's missing a nice chunk.For sure new damage because of the fresh wood exposed.

Finishing a complete area such as ridge cap instead of relying on the overlapped shingles to keep the hips dry.

Cutting drip edge to fit instead of leaving it to flap in the wind causing damage to the installed piece.

Those things might be irrelevant but IMHPO it shows inconsistency and poor attention to detail.And not to mention lack of respect to the homeowner and the property they own.Does it mean the roofer is bad ? No,,,but it makes you wonder what else might be "Forgotten or inconsistent"

I would not only speak with the building department but I would contact the shingle manufacture and request a representative to inspect the roof for warranty compliance confirmation.

I am sure by now the roofer feels like crap but you CANNOT feel sorry o bad for wanting a roof that will last for years to come.You should not feel bad if he has to come out of pocket to redo or replace anything.Bottom line is he knew what the job entitled and required.He gained your confidence by implying he could handle the project and deliver a quality installation.You put your money on him so now its his turn to step up and deliver.How ever much that is going to cost him.

Homeowners just settle and they should not.Your paying for a service and that service needs to be to your expectations.And if not it needs to be repaired and installed over and over until it is.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I am also sick of hearing the phrase "Fake it till you make it" in our industry.Don't take jobs that require expertise and ability.Keep your butt on the gable to gable 5/12's and leave the "Real" roofing to the pro's. :thumbup:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Those things might be irrelevant but IMHPO it shows inconsistency and poor attention to detail.And not to mention lack of respect to the homeowner and the property they own.Does it mean the roofer is bad ? No,,,but it makes you wonder what else might be "Forgotten or inconsistent"


That is almost a direct quote of me talking to the roofer yesterday! Really, I said almost exactly that to him. He didn't get it at all.

I had previously noticed everything that you listed in your post. I've already got a commitment to fix that big chunk-o-shingle that's missing. 

I'm keeping documentation of everything I see, hear, or notice while they're working. All of those things were on there. I was even Googling to figure out what kind of safety restraints, noise protection, and lighting the workers should have. They have none. And they worked in the dark on the roof.

I hadn't realized I could ask someone from GAF to inspect the roof. Is that a separate cost? How does that work?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

You can call GAF and schedule an inspection.No there should not be a cost,,,its not in my area anyway.But they will jump on it because its their product and they will be providing a warranty on materials.

Not sure if a homeowner can do anything about not wearing a harness except request they wear them.On my contracts it states that the job site will conform to OSHA regulations.That makes the customer feel better if they have a super steep roof.But regardless it lets them know your safety concious and you take steps to abide and your workers safety is important to you.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

We all get caught in the dark at some point in a career.Most times its not planned.

I was on a job in STL and my wife and I were flying to San Diego to get married at Hotel Del Coronado.It was Christmas day and we were scheduled to fly out the next morning for S.D.The house was on the UMSL campus.We were short handed and we rented some huge halogen lamps.We finished that roof at 12:45 a.m and we were ridging in blowing snow.Got sick but still made our flight @ 7:15 a.m.I have it on video and show my customers our dedication to job completion.hahahahaha sorry,,I get side tracked sometimes.

She could hardly talk because of being in the frigid temps and blowing snow but she managed to say "I do" on New Years Eve.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Ok...so now I'm worried again. Here are pictures of the work they've been doing on the actual shingles. They don't look like they're staggered correctly to me. I read the GAF instructions. They're supposed to repeat every 5th row. This looks more like a random assemblage.
> 
> What do you folks think?


Just curious what is that white thing on the side of the roof in pic # 1 ?

Also on the same picture with the white thing,,, I am zooming in to look at the offset (Stagger) and I am not liking it.


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I hear you roofmaster. This is not a difficult job for an experienced crew. Make sure it is done the right way. Normally this is from an inexperienced contractor who didn't know how to bid the job correctly which is why they got the job.

This one we had to replace after a few years (50 year Elk shingle) because of terrible workmanship. Unfortunate situation.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

ParagonEx said:


> I hear you roofmaster. This is not a difficult job for an experienced crew. Make sure it is done the right way. Normally this is from an inexperienced contractor who didn't know how to bid the job correctly which is why they got the job.
> 
> This one we had to replace after a few years (50 year Elk shingle) because of terrible workmanship. Unfortunate situation.


That is very nice and not trying to go too far off topic,,,but what did you do for chimney C.F ? Copper ? And I really like around the window sill for the counter flashing,,,very nice and very clean.,.,me likes much,much hahajajaxaxa,,,and Kudo's to the gutter guy,,,what a very detailed job they did as well.

When I see a cut up roofs like these I actually like them.The pride of driving by knowing you did that is worth more than the money you make doing it.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Just curious what is that white thing on the side of the roof in pic # 1 ?
> 
> Also on the same picture with the white thing,,, I am zooming in to look at the offset (Stagger) and I am not liking it.


If you mean the white thing in the middle, that would be a piece of Timberline plastic bag that got stuck under a shingle four days ago. What, you don't leave little pieces of plastic bag all over your roofing jobs?! They're like little rustling gifts that keep on giving.

I'm not pleased with the offset either. They definitely didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions. But even if they just made it look decent I wouldn't mind so much. The sloppiness is killing me. $14k and my roof looks like CRAP!

On the bright side: the fascia they fixed today looks much, much better. It looks how I expected it to look on the first day. And they left the job site much cleaner, and actually stacked the remaining wood under tarps (ya think?!) and didn't leave debris all over the roof.

Back onto the dark side: I ducked my head out my attic window to inspect the flashing under the dormer they did today. One of the top shingles slid down the roof as soon as I touched it! It wasn't held on with ANYTHING. The ones next to it are at least tacked in with temporary nails. I imagine they're going to affix them in some other way (like, for example, the asphaltic plastic cement that GAF calls for in their instructions?) But really...this is just insanity.

They did use new flashing for this one. It looks like a dark brown, high gloss metal. I'll be happy when the shingles are actually attached to it, though.

Still no ridge caps on any part of the house that I can see. And I agree that it stinks to leave the house with no caps for days and days. Especially as we've had heavy rain, two wind advisories, and a nor'easter with snow, and now we have 1-3 inches of snow forecast for tomorrow. I want my caps, man!

I think I'll wait until tomorrow to take pictures for y'all of how the sheathing nails don't actually connect with the rafters. It's part of the joy of not having a finished attic that I can look up and see precisely where they missed. And missed. And missed.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> If you mean the white thing in the middle, that would be a piece of Timberline plastic bag that got stuck under a shingle four days ago. What, you don't leave little pieces of plastic bag all over your roofing jobs?! They're like little rustling gifts that keep on giving.
> 
> I'm not pleased with the offset either. They definitely didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions. But even if they just made it look decent I wouldn't mind so much. The sloppiness is killing me. $14k and my roof looks like CRAP!
> 
> ...


Nope,I am not into tree ornaments in the form of shingle wrappers let alone stuck up under my newly installed shingles.It sounds to me you have your hands full.I have passed many job sites that have debris everywhere,,felt and shingle wrappers in the trees and other things that look very sloppy.

A contractor and crew should really develop the mindset of first impressions are valuable.Someone could put on a beautiful roof and treat the customer like they should be treated.Basically do everything right other than keep a tidy job site.A potential customer could be driving by and see that and you lose the first impression.Even if after your done everything is completely squared away everything is proper you have lost.And the bad part is that potential customer could have made a wrong turn and will never be in that area again.Or the person that saw your mess will never see the finished product.Cleanliness is key.

I am really curious what the decking looks like from the attic.That tells the tale.That itself cannot be explained away.

And leaving a roof like that ? He must have some good insurance.Lmao


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Ask and ye shall receive!

Here are the pics of...what shall we call them... Air Nails! They magically fasten wood to air!




























(Don't mind the bit of pink panther guts in the last shot. That's left over from our stop-gap attempt to limit the massive air exchange in the attic after the tree made friends with our roof. Now that we have wood there again, I can toss the insulation.)

I also found this interesting... They're hand-hammering the nails through the sheathing, but nail-gunning the shingle nails. Isn't that kinda backward?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I am confused by the pix,,,,,Why is the wood grain running vertical ? The grain is supposed to run parallel with the gutter line.Surely they did not install the plywood vertical ?

Are all the seams of plywood vertical ?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Could you take a picture of the seams ? Where the plywood butts up to each other ?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Not all of the plywood is new. They are only contracted to replace any damaged/rotting/missing sheathing. As far as I can tell, though, all the plywood I can see in the attic runs that direction. 

So, is horizontal sheathing a best practice thing, like priming fascia before hanging it? Or a code thing, like I can get the inspector to fail them and make them re-do the whole roof?! 

(**please let it be code...please let it be code...please let it be code**)


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I can't get up to the attic now (my man is asleep, and this would surely wake him). But the seams are all over the place. The boards aren't all rectangular, and they're not all the same size. So, we've got vertical seams, horizontal seams, and some strange diagonal triangle stuff. It was a piece of crap roof to begin with. We didn't realize we should have demanded that they re-deck the whole roof. So...we might be out of luck just for being uneducated about that. Unless it's against code to re-roof over an incorrectly applied deck. In which case we might win the lottery!


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

How is this roof vented?

Nail the shingles would be a different pneumatic gun than the nailer for the plywood. I wouldn't be surprised by anything from this crew at this point.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Plywood is to be installed parallel to the gutterline.A sheet of plywood is at its strongest when installed that way.The plywood has to be broke on a rafter/truss.Broke meaning each end seam always starts or stops on a rafter/truss.

I am not aware of any building code for roof structures and assemblies that recognizes nor accepts vertical plywood installation as a "Acceptable" form of installation for CDX plywood or OSB plywood.

What will happen over time is the plywood will bow out,,popping any fasteners along with it.If they installed that plywood vertical then you put a stop order on the project and get your building department involved IMMEDIATELY !!!!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Yikes.

Well...this is gonna be fun. We've got an insurance deadline of about the end of January to get this entirely done. If we don't make it, they cancel our homeowners insurance. And we won't be able to get new insurance because the claim for the tree damage definitely won't be closed by then.

In other words: time is of the essence!

I guess I have to get the building inspector out here ASAP. But I know my town, and that'll take ages.

Maybe I should just start bribing people. I mean, it is New Jersey. Isn't that what people do here? :wink:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> How is this roof vented?


The roof isn't vented. It's a 105-year-old house, the attic has never been conditioned, there is no insulation in the attic, and there have never been vents. The original roofing material was also most likely asphalt (or asbestos) shingles. 

I don't know a ton about venting, and the more I read, the more different opinions I find. So when it came to pondering adding venting, we went with the "if it ain't broke" school of thought.




Windows on Wash said:


> Nail the shingles would be a different pneumatic gun than the nailer for the plywood. I wouldn't be surprised by anything from this crew at this point.


Definitely hand-hammering at least some aspect of the plywood. They were shaking the entire house!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Yikes.
> 
> Well...this is gonna be fun. We've got an insurance deadline of about the end of January to get this entirely done. If we don't make it, they cancel our homeowners insurance. And we won't be able to get new insurance because the claim for the tree damage definitely won't be closed by then.
> 
> ...


IMO bribing is very unethical and in the end nothing good can come of it.However you can contact your insurance provider and explain in detail what has been going on with your claim(Storm restoration)

As long as you contact them before the deadline you can have an extension.So yes time is of the essence.Also don't call the building department go there.From my experience being in there in person is more direct.I have yet to be put on hold when I show up in person.Be firm,direct and respectful.Take the pictures with you and explain your situation.But be nice,,,


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> The roof isn't vented.So when it came to pondering adding venting, we went with the "if it ain't broke" school of thought.


Not having adequate ventilation will drastically lower if not void manufacture warranty coverage. 

Since the home was built construction techniques,beliefs and requirements have changed.Its up to the building departments and property owners to change with the times.Your roofer should have insisted and addressed the ventilation issue with you.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Hren said:


> The roof isn't vented. It's a 105-year-old house, the attic has never been conditioned, there is no insulation in the attic, and there have never been vents. The original roofing material was also most likely asphalt (or asbestos) shingles.
> 
> I don't know a ton about venting, and the more I read, the more different opinions I find. So when it came to pondering adding venting, we went with the "if it ain't broke" school of thought.
> 
> Definitely hand-hammering at least some aspect of the plywood. They were shaking the entire house!


If it isn't vented and isn't conditioned space, technically, it is broken.

There may be a bunch of different schools of thought but opinions are like you know what...most of the time.

This would have been the time to address that via a proper roofer and if you can get them to cease work because of the multitude of other items, I would seriously look into the venting question with the next roofer.

Good luck and I am really sorry this is such a nightmarish undertaking. It is not supposed to be.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Just a comment on the orientation of the plywood roof deck. I'm a DIYer (not a pro) so I'm not speaking to code, but since the plywood roof decking is being applied to horizontal strapping rather than directly to the rafters, it could be argued that vertical would be the better way (for the same reasons you would mount horizontally to vertical rafters). As to the errant nails, that is ugly. The only places they should have put the longer nails is at the intersections of the strapping and the rafters. Obviously that's a rather small target and it doesn't look like they made much of an effort to measure or otherwise mark the locations of the rafters and strapping before nailing. 

OP, the fact that you have that old wood strapping means your house probably originally had wood shingles or something else more rigid than an asphalt shingle.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

Your home most likely had shakes or cedar shingles,. The verticle plywood over skip sheathing is a minor issue, IMHO of course. While I would never install it as such, I have reused decks done that way and seen no ill effects. the rest of the work is still crap though.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> IMO bribing is very unethical and in the end nothing good can come of it.


Oh goodness-- I meant that entirely as a joke. I would never in a million years try to bribe someone. My fiance would crack up if he was reading this. Cause he's in law enforcement, and I won't even let him use his badge to get us to the front of the line at baseball games! I'm a stickler for doing everything "the right way".



Roofmaster417 said:


> However you can contact your insurance provider and explain in detail what has been going on with your claim(Storm restoration) As long as you contact them before the deadline you can have an extension.So yes time is of the essence.


Wanna hear a fun insurance story? No? Well here it is anyway. :tongue_smilie:

We didn't like our homeowners insurance company. They were small and unprofessional. So, we decided to find a new company. I spent weeks emailing back and forth with a guy at a national company. We got a great quote from him, and we did a whole long meeting in his office to cover all questions. At one point he asked if we were planning to do any work on the house, and I told him we were replacing the porch stairs, as they were lousy when we bought the house two years ago. 

(Side note: The previous owner shouldn't have been able to get a CO to sell the house. He didn't have permits for anything he'd done--roof, bathroom, kitchen, deck, etc--and the porch stairs were quite literally falling off the house. This is what I mean when I say that our building/code department isn't much help. They have no idea what they're doing.)

So, this insurance agent makes a note of the repairs we're planning, takes our info, takes our money, and sells us a policy. He says that with the age of the house and the pending repair, they'll probably do a quick visit to take pictures of the house for our file. *cue foreshadowing music here*

A month later he calls us to say that we'll be getting a letter giving us a deadline for finishing our porch stair repair. We hadn't started it, mind you. We were still getting bids and trying to plan what design we wanted. He says it's just a formality, and not to worry.

Then Hurricane Sandy hits, and a tree falls on the house, and we open an insurance claim.

After that, the letter comes, and it's a cancellation. It says we have to have the stairs replaced, and we can't have any trees "over" the house. Which we don't. We have a few small branches that reach out, but nothing big. 

For three weeks I speak to them almost daily, trying to comply with their demands. We choose a carpenter for the stairs and rush a permit. We trim bushes back and send them proof that we had the storm-related tree removed already. We plead with them for an extension, and they tell us they're legally not allowed to give one. They flat out tell us we'd better start looking for a new insurer, because they don't think they'll accept our attempts at compliance.

After getting turned down by just about every insurance company in the book, we called an independent agent, and she somehow convinced a major carrier to give us a policy even though we have an open claim and significant damage to the house. But a week after they sent us our policy, they too said that they'll have to issue a cancellation if the roof isn't done by the end of January.

So...fun. Lots of fun. You can see why I don't really want to extend the roofing job any more than I have to!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

PatChap said:


> the rest of the work is still crap though.


This just had me laughing for a full five minutes! Yes! It really IS crap! :laughing:

Maybe it's a woman thing, but it really feels good to have someone else bluntly saying it along with me.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Not trying to cause a decking debate but.,.,To rely on the horizontal 1"x4"s to keep the plywood secure is not a recommended installation procedure.,Here is why;

Your fastening the plywood to 1"x3" s or 4" s.The fastener is clearing the entire surface it is being fastened to.Sooner or later that fastener will give way as the plywood is bowing out away from the roof.

When we install plywood while redecking we break on a rafter and start on a rafter.We use 3" ring shanks blasted by our Paslode and Hitachi framing guns.When possible we use H clips on all seams.

Posted is a diagram of the pros and cons of vertical plywood applications.I would never install plywood vertically nor would I ever agree with the procedure.

Even the Plywood Institute agrees the plywood is at is most strongest on a roof deck when installed horizontally.

And yes its a small target to hit,,,but chalk lines on CDX and those factory lines on OSB work wonders.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Posted is a diagram of the pro,s and cons of vertical plywood applications.


That diagram says it all to me. And in my case, the vertical plywood isn't even breaking on the rafters, and much of it isn't full pieces. So in some cases, it's only touching two rafters. Or one.

You wouldn't happen to be able to recommend a roofer in my area, would you? We really might need to fire this guy, sue him for the money we already gave him, and start over again.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

P.m me your location.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> P.m me your location.


I am doing that right now. (Sorry for the dumb post. The board requires me to have 20 posts before I can PM, and I only had 19!)


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Whoops!

If the house had no passive ventilation before and you are not seeing signs of problems (mold, wetness, under sheathing frost, damp- insulation, etc.) don't lose sleep over it; for moisture control; http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1999/tenwo99a.pdf

Similar, but put together differently; http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2002/rose02a.pdf

Shingle warranty may be affected---- though not correctly so (read the plastic cover you enjoy hearing 24/7); http://www.professionalroofing.net/archives/past/mar02/feature2.asp

Gary


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Btw,,,,If your area was declared a disaster area or classified as "Catastrophe" then your insurance provider cannot cancel you until a year after the declaration.

I have a couple friends who are in an organization who helps homeowners repair their properties after being taken advantage of by hacks.Lemme explain your situation and see if they can help because they are in Jersey working Sandy.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

GBR in WA said:


> If the house had no passive ventilation before and you are not seeing signs of problems (mold, wetness, under sheathing frost, damp- insulation, etc.) don't lose sleep over it
> 
> Gary


I will definitely read what you've linked here-- thank you!

Regarding the venting... The house does not have soffit or ridge vents, and no power vents, and we have no attic insulation whatsoever. But we have venting of a sort. We have three windows in the attic, and I have dual fans in them for three seasons out of the year (not Winter). The attic is appropriately hotter in Summer and cooler in Winter than the rest of the house, but not excessively so.

We have seen no evidence of the things people worry about with no insulation or venting. The attic is never musty and there is no mildew; it also isn't stifling and the air isn't parched. We haven't seen ice dams, and we had icicles only once or twice when other houses seemed to have them too. We don't have abnormally high energy costs, and we keep our thermostat relatively low in the Winter (64 to 68). 

When I get cold, I knit a sweater.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> AS someone else pointed out; the plywood is probably laid correctly, if the edge nailing spacing pattern hits the shingle strapping boards, not the rafters. #30 here; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_sec002_par005.htm
> 
> 6" nailing on the edges and 12" in the field of the plywood. Footnote "g" is location (wind-speed) for closer nailing at the gables,etc.; Fig. R301.2(4); http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_3_sec001_par004.htm
> But I wouldn't worry too much if the plywood was already installed previously.
> ...



Much respect GBR and don't wanna start another war :laughing: But I agree with the fastening but what about the method of plywood installation ?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Btw,,,,If your area was declared a disaster area or classified as "Catastrophe" then your insurance provider cannot cancel you until a year after the declaration.
> 
> I have a couple friends who are in an organization who helps homeowners repair their properties after being taken advantage of by hacks.Lemme explain your situation and see if they can help because they are in Jersey working Sandy.


Thank you! Unfortunately, we may not qualify. Apparently, insurance companies have 60 days from the day they sign you within which they may cancel the policy for any reason. After that, they cannot cancel you without cause (late payments, failure to respond to notices, etc). But during that 60 days, they do not have to work with you or accept your attempts at compliance.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Fixed it, thanks! Plywood orientation depends on the strength of the 1x's to transmit live loads to the rafters (appear to be 16"o.c.). Not a SE, beyond me... though if the strapping is close/closer than the plywood span rating- eg. 16/24 = 16" on center framing for floor, 24" on center for roofs; it wouldn't make a difference, would it? Only the penetration of the plywood fastener into solid wood (rafter) as you said. Shingle strapping = 10" o.c.? would be plenty of support for either orientation...

Gary


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> Fixed it, thanks! Plywood orientation depends on the strength of the 1x's to transmit live loads to the rafters (appear to be 16"o.c.). Not a SE, beyond me... though if the strapping is close/closer than the plywood span rating- eg. 16/24 = 16" on center framing for floor, 24" on center for roofs; it wouldn't make a difference, would it? Only the penetration of the plywood fastener into solid wood (rafter) as you said. Shingle strapping = 10" o.c.? would be plenty of support for either orientation...
> 
> Gary


Interesting.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Though that would require backers of 1x's under the end joints for the required fastener spacing/penetration. Unless I'm interpreting the code wrong, been there/done that a few times- according to my local AHJ...

Gary


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Here are some more hard numbers to plug into your engineering debate. I wanna hear more!

Rafters are nominal 2x6s, inconsistent but generally 24" on center. (Also, there aren't really more than four in a row without a dormer or other irregularity. So the last one is generally shorter OC. If you get what I mean.)

Strapping are nominal 1x2s, even more inconsistent but generally 5-1/2" on center.

Plywood is 5/8" CDX.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

GBR in WA said:


> Though that would require backers of 1x's under the end joints for the required fastener spacing/penetration. Unless I'm interpreting the code wrong, been there/done that a few times- according to my local AHJ...
> 
> Gary


Ok.... so if I'm getting this, the issue you're pointing to here is that end fasteners on all four sides of the sheathing need to penetrate a certain amount of wood, and stick out into the air only a certain amount. And those little 1x2 strappings are way too thin to comply with that.

Have I got that right?


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren, I think you need to realize that your roof, while not unique, is not typical of most roofs and certainly not typical of anything modern. So "what's the right way?" is a little up to interpretation, and you can easily get several opinions on it. Since they installed 5/8" plywood to patch your roof, I'm assuming the rest of your roof already had 5/8" plywood on it. You may want to look at that and see how it was installed. It sounds like this guy only needed to patch a small area. 

The 1x2 strapping on your roof sounds flimsy by today's standards, but your 1x2 are probably actually 1" x 2" (different than a modern 1x2") and are likely also made of much better wood than you would buy today. They've supported and held your roof on for 100 years. That's saying something. You originally would have had wood shingles attached directly to the strapping.The plywood you have on there now should actually make the roof stronger than it was 100 years ago.

The strongest method of attachment would be to drive nails through the junctions of the strapping and the rafters, and that is what I personally would have done. That doesn't mean that your plywood is going to blow off if it is only attached to the strapping. 

I really don't want to come off as defending your roofing contractor, because he clearly is doing some sloppy work. If I were in your shoes, I would be focusing on the shingle installation itself. Are the shingles aligned and nailed properly? Is the flashing adequate? Are the hips, ridges, and valleys done properly? These are the areas that are more likely to give you problems in the future.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> Hren, I think you need to realize that your roof, while not unique, is not typical ...


Thank you for the practical response. I agree with a lot of what you wrote. And as we've moved along in this job, I've been weighing those kinds of practical thoughts with my frustration over the mounting number of corners this guy is cutting, and his refusal to admit it when faced with the evidence. I'm asking all these questions here because I want to know how much of a disaster this could be, so I can make sure it doesn't get that bad! I know there are at least 10 ways to do this job "right". I just want to make sure he's using one of them.

As for the 1x2s, they're nominal 1x2s. Not actual. I was surprised, myself. I thought the old rafters would be actual 2x6s, too, but they're not either. And if we're assuming that they're old growth wood, then yes they're gonna be a heck of a lot stronger than what we can pick up today at the Home Despot. It's part of why we bought a 100 year old house-- it's a good, solid house! This is the other reason:

picture removed
Look at that wood! Look at those windows! Aaah! House pr0n!

As for his shingle application...he and I had a long and serious conversation about it. I've had to accept that I cannot walk around the roof myself, checking each and every shingle. (Would that I could!) So I made him commit in writing to use at least 5 nails per shingle, applied in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions, including complying with cold weather installation methods if applicable. And I made him commit in writing that he would make sure all flashing is intact, and installed as per the manufacturer's instructions, with the proper cement instead of nails slammed through it.

He has also agreed in writing to extend his own 10 year warranty to 30 years should any aspect of his installation void the shingle manufacturer's warranty. He's been in business around 25 years already, so there's at least a decent chance he'll stay in business for as long as I live in the house.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Ok.... so if I'm getting this, the issue you're pointing to here is that end fasteners on all four sides of the sheathing need to penetrate a certain amount of wood, and stick out into the air only a certain amount. And those little 1x2 strappings are way too thin to comply with that.
> 
> Have I got that right?


Realistically IMPO,,,all of this can be solved by installing plywood horizontally.I have redecked some "Architects Dreams" and "Roofers Nightmares" and I have always installed plywood horizontally.

I use chalk lines so I hit my centers with CDX and the factory puts rafter and stud lines on the OSB.I fasten them on the rafters using a 3" fastener.Breaking on the rafters/centers with those 3" ring shanks ensures proper fastening and penetration into the rafter.

Maybe the roof/decking won't blow off but also IMO why take the chance ? I have seen countless roofs that the roofers did not break on the rafters/centers and the plywood warps/buckles/bows causing the shingles to rip or pull out along with the decking.

I have redecked roofs that have had 7+dormers,multiple angles,pitch,valleys etc and always ran horizontally and have never had a single issue with nail pops on the decking.I guess I could spend a couple more paragraphs trying to explain my concept or perception about how I fee, proper decking technique should be utilized.

Your roof might have been installed that way to begin with,,,but if I were in that situation (And I most certainly have been and will be again) I would feel its my duty to inform the homeowner of anything that I find that I see deemed as improper.

If my customer says "Its O.k,,,I can live with it? I would then limit my warranty to "Shingle application only workmanship warranty" I will exclude any decking issues related to "Customer Acknowledgment".The customer IS aware of existing issues related to improper decking installation.

But I WOULD install the decking I am replacing according to "Standard Practices".And the "Standard Practice" is Horizontal installation.I have replaced vertical plywood before after bringing it to the attention of the homeowner.After all they are trusting me to know "What is" and "What is not" standard installation procedure.

It amazes me how quick a homeowner will question vertical felt application but does not have any idea how a roof should be decked with plywood.And "Hren" that is not directed towards you.You are a victim searching for a life lime.

Just because the decking installation is existing does not make it proper to "Just go with it" The customer should have been made aware of this type of installation which is anything but "Standard Practice" and the choice should have been up to them to make the choice of it they want to to "Go with it" because after the customer says to "Go with it" you as a contractor has done your job and the ball is now in their court.After all it is their home.Just saying.

I guess I am just passionate about my trade or very opinionated.Maybe both.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Your roof might have been installed that way to begin with,,,but if I were in that situation (And I most certainly have been and will be again) I would feel its my duty to inform the homeowner of anything that I find that I see deemed as improper.


That's precisely how we feel. And we didn't realize that we'd need to specify things like that in the contract. To me it's like being contracted to dig a ditch, finding nuclear waste in the ditch, and not informing the homeowner. "Hey, it was already there. Not our problem."

In all cases where there's a choice, I want to be told what's going on, given guidance on best practices, and left alone to make the decision. 

The weird thing is, this roofer kind of did that to start with. He showed us how the old shingles were only attached with 3 nails, noted the lack of proper flashing in the valleys, and how the lack of a drip edge was rotting the fascia and decking. He used that info to convince us to go for a whole new roof. He could easily have gotten the money out of us for all new decking at the same time!


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I feel bad about your troubles.

This is an unfortunate situation that many of us have to consistently fight against. We have to justify why our prices are higher for the "same" thing, etc.

I don't feel like your roof was cheap or that it was a cheap bid. This contractor should've easily had the funds to make this a correct job.

This happens to way too many people too much because let's face it, most roofers are roofers because they were left with no other choice in life. I have around 200-300 roofing companies by me and I can only think of 3 I would let roof my own house.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

"proper" and "standard practice" are a tricky situation with a 100 year old home. The reality is there is going to be a whole lot of stuff in the home that do not meet today's proper and standard practice benchmarks. So after you decide the decking is not proper you then look at the roof framing, then the framing of the walls and floors, then the foundation and footings. And you know the plumbing and electrical in a home of that age can be a potential nightmare. Do you tear it all down back to a hole in the ground and start over?

So when you live in an older home you need to be able to live with the fact that your house doesn't meet today's building codes. And you need to be able to make smart decisions about what is good enough and what is not. 

You didn't hire the best roofer out there, you didn't hire the worst either. If you look at ParagonEx's comment on how many roofers in his area he would trust, you should get the picture. Unfortunately there is a lot of mediocrity out there (I'm probably being kind with that statement). Which is why i prefer to DIY whenever practical. 

Since you seem to be getting some cooperation from your roofer, you're probably best off letting him do the job he should have done in the first place. It sounds like he probably understands how to do a proper roof, but his workers either don't or he allows them to cut corners. Unfortunately that's not uncommon. Hopefully they didn't do anything that can't be fixed. If you can get the shingle manufacturer to do an inspection, that's great. If you let your contractor know you're trying to get a separate inspection, that may solve some problems by itself.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> So after you decide the decking is not proper you then look at the roof framing, then the framing of the walls and floors, then the foundation and footings. And you know the plumbing and electrical in a home of that age can be a potential nightmare. Do you tear it all down back to a hole in the ground and start over?


I hear you. We knew what we were getting into buying a c.1908 house.

But (and it's a big but) the existing decking was put up in 2008. This isn't K&T wiring or lead pipes. If the new roofer wanted to reuse it, isn't it up to him to make sure it's properly installed?

Would you build a new deck and not check the existing footings? Would you strip paint without checking for lead? This isn't above and beyond we're talking about. This is the job.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

So here's the critical sentence about sheathing vs supports in the New Jersey Residential Code, from TABLE R503.2.1.1(1)



> b. Panels continuous over two or more spans with long dimension perpendicular to supports


So..."supports". I'm finding nothing that specifies whether strapping is included or excluded as a support.

I think I'm officially deciding that in the case of my house, horizontal sheathing counts as a best practice, not a code requirement.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren said:


> So here's the critical sentence about sheathing vs supports in the New Jersey Residential Code, from TABLE R503.2.1.1(1)
> 
> So..."supports". I'm finding nothing that specifies whether strapping is included or excluded as a support.
> 
> I think I'm officially deciding that in the case of my house, horizontal sheathing counts as a best practice, not a code requirement.


That's the problem, codes are sometimes tricky to interpret when it comes to old construction (like your strapping). A really stupid roofer with no understanding of old construction might decide to tear off all your decking AND strapping and replace with 5/8 OSB so it is similar to new construction. That may be to code in your area so I guess someone could call that "proper", but your current roof with horizontal strapping every 5" or 6" and 5/8" plywood on top is waaaaaaay stronger no matter what the orientation of the plywood. 
I think you probably have a very solid roof deck, better than most houses out there. The nailing on the patched area is ugly and lazy, but if the roof is already on, I don't know that it's worth redoing over that. As I said before, I would be more concerned about how the shingles were nailed, the flashing, and the valleys. That is what is more likely to cause you problems.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

wrongdave said:


> That's the problem, codes are sometimes tricky to interpret when it comes to old construction (like your strapping). A really stupid roofer with no understanding of old construction might decide to tear off all your decking AND strapping and replace with 5/8 OSB so it is similar to new construction. That may be to code in your area so I guess someone could call that "proper", but your current roof with horizontal strapping every 5" or 6" and 5/8" plywood on top is waaaaaaay stronger no matter what the orientation of the plywood.
> I think you probably have a very solid roof deck, better than most houses out there. The nailing on the patched area is ugly and lazy, but if the roof is already on, I don't know that it's worth redoing over that. As I said before, I would be more concerned about how the shingles were nailed, the flashing, and the valleys. That is what is more likely to cause you problems.



I guess the most logical question might be how long ago the original shake roof was removed and the plywood installed ? And see if by chance a member of "This old house" roofed it. :laughing:


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Honestly tho,,,I asked a "Old Timer" roofer who has been in business since 1928 about this thread.He is pushing 100 and he just laughed and said why would you install plywood vertical ? There is no logical "Structural" benefit of doing it.Dick said to me "There are hack installations everywhere" most are hidden and will never be revealed"


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Dick said to me "There are hack installations everywhere" most are hidden and will never be revealed"


Ahh, but if they are never revealed are they really hack installations? And was he talking about others, or was admitting to past sins?

I guess I have a bit of a pet peeve when people pick apart other's work when sometimes the work actually works. I watch pretty much all the auto customization/restoration/hot rod shows and sometimes they bring in an old car that looks really nice. They then proceed to have the body media blasted and find some old DIY bodywork underneath, like a piece of sheet metal riveted on and bondo'd over. They make a big deal about how "wrong" that is, yet it was "old" bodywork (which means it lasted a while) and it looked pretty damn good before they media blasted it. BTW, I recently did some bodywork on my truck and I welded in the sheet metal (the "proper" way), but I wouldn't dare pick on someone for using rivets if they can make it work.

And on that particular roof with all that horizontal strapping running across the rafters and supporting the plywood, I honestly don't think the orientation of the plywood is going to make any difference. And I wouldn't pick on someone for thinking the proper way to install the plywood to strapping might be to run it lengthwise across the strapping. I can see how someone might logically come to that conclusion if they thought about it. Then again, based on the nailing, he probably didn't really put much thought into it


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

wrongdave said:


> I can see how someone might logically come to that conclusion if they thought about it. Then again, based on the nailing, he probably didn't really put much thought into it



Agreed :thumbsup:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The plywood is much stronger perpendicular to the rafters/supports (without strapping), I'm not arguing that. I have posted this comparison a few times before to show the great difference in load-carrying ability per orientation; *Table 2;* http://www.trioforest.com/pdf/Load-Span_Tables.pdf

My concern was the OP is having a difficult enough time without showing what could be the possible weakness of the existing application of the plywood orientation (empathy/discretion) that is not being changed in the near future. It's stayed on the roof so far and I've seen worse. To what end or purpose... or professionalism. 

Gary


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## mgp roofing (Aug 15, 2011)

Many times, I have replaced cedar, or tile, roofs with asphalt, laid the plywood vertically over the strapping. But first I check the fixing of the strapping, often it needs to be re-nailed because the 100 year old ones have corroded in places. I make sure end joins are supported, by either moving one of the old boards to suit, or fitting a new one, I have never had, or even heard of, problems caused by doing this. I have even seen it specified in architects' plans for renovation jobs. We also install vertically when replacing long run steel roofs with asphalt; we even do it on new builds for the Mormons, all their roofs here have horizontal supports over the trusses.(the steel framed part still needed vertical, then horizontal 4x2s installed when the pic was taken).


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

mgp roofing said:


> Many times, I have replaced cedar, or tile, roofs with asphalt, laid the plywood vertically over the strapping. But first I check the fixing of the strapping, often it needs to be re-nailed because the 100 year old ones have corroded in places. I make sure end joins are supported, by either moving one of the old boards to suit, or fitting a new one, I have never had, or even heard of, problems caused by doing this. I have even seen it specified in architects' plans for renovation jobs. We also install vertically when replacing long run steel roofs with asphalt; we even do it on new builds for the Mormons, all their roofs here have horizontal supports over the trusses.(the steel framed part still needed vertical, then horizontal 4x2s installed when the pic was taken).


Love that steel.Very,very nice.

But I could agree with you about running vertical plywood if as you said certain modification or accomidations are made to add to the strengthening/support aspect.As Wrongdave pointed out that if thought is put into it some logic is found.

I can agree that a lot of this thread is factual and IMO some talented and great minds within the industry have posted valuable comments.But sadly all of this is based on pretty much speculation after seeing only a couple mediocre pictures of an attic space.Don't take offense Hren its nothing intended towards you in any way.

I can also agree that its quite possible that the strapping and supports follow suggested guidelines and are in fact "Structurally sound".

I also think we can ALL agree that the O.P's contractor might be a knucklehead.As with every homeowner I feel everyone on this thread and most on this forum want to see homeowners get their money's worth and be provided with a top notch installation.

I also can agree that most professionals here on this thread and forum wish that the homeowners would have contractors who are as equally "Quality Driven" as we are.But then again if that were the case these forums would likely not exist and you would not be sitting here debating and trading paint on this thread.

I hope maybe Hren might be generous enough to provide some more pix of her attic.:thumbsup:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

These are pictures from about a year ago. So you can see how the "old" roof was put on. We were told it was installed in 2008. In the last picture, you can see that there was a leak by the chimney. We had that fixed shortly after we moved in. (Incidentally, the new roofer didn't replace any of that damaged sheathing.)


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Hmm. Diagonal sheathing in the valleys. Did you get the chimney re-flashed with the new roof, earlier? Appears a few different rafter spacings, messes with my earlier idea- before the latest pictures; 
Is the roofer walking on your roof? I hope so… lol. So as he walks across the surface stepping between the rafter spacing sometimes, has his foot gone through the plywood/strapping yet? With all his weight concentrated on one footstep, and landing between rafter bearings, it must be strong enough to support him. If he weighs 70#, that area will support that much weight, at least for short term. Your State has different snow loads for your location, from 20#-50# per square foot. So the shingle/ply/strapping combo will support at least 70# with this simple test. Ask the roofer if he noticed any
”soft” spots while walking around. Or have him walk the whole roof and you mark them in the attic for future additional support later, if concerned. Pay extra for his time. 

Adding the combined loads (live/dead), with the on-center spacing, species of wood, and rafter ties/ridge height adjustment factor will give the safe span of sized rafters: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_par027.htm?bu2=undefined

Your State has different snow loads for various locations, use yours for the tables in the previous link; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...tmhuHu&sig=AHIEtbSNLTbUEt0HsBmG_bwJfXpc0YP07g

I would be concerned about the lower shed roofs with a heavy snow load rather than the steeper higher roofs which shed the snow easier. 
“Multilevel roofs (when the lower roof is subject to an accumulation of sliding or drifting snow or accumulation of snowmelt) and “Valleys (subject to substantial snow or ice
accumulation due to drifting, sliding or melting)” From/example given; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...3GN1hr&sig=AHIEtbSIn44PkEXMJwhalpoLI0y_E8w56w
Possibly the hip/valley rafter on the higher roof as early framing never sized-up those rafters to meet today’s codes, unless supported mid-span. But that’s another story…


Gary


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Wow-- what a wealth of information! Thank you, GBR. Let me see if I can address some of what you wrote.



GBR in WA said:


> Hmm. Diagonal sheathing in the valleys. Did you get the chimney re-flashed with the new roof, earlier?


We only moved here at the end of 2010. I don't know what the previous owners did or didn't do when (they claim) they had the roof redone in 2008. There was no permit pulled for any work they did on the house, so there's no way for us to know. We had the chimney re-stuccoed and reflashed about a year ago, as it was chipped and leaking. Roofers walked on the roof to do that.



GBR in WA said:


> Is the roofer walking on your roof? I hope so… lol. So as he walks across the surface stepping between the rafter spacing sometimes, has his foot gone through the plywood/strapping yet?


He's climbed on the porch roof himself. His employees have been all over the other parts of the roof. To my knowledge, no one has broken through anything. We do have broken strapping, but I believe both broken spots were already broken when we moved in.



GBR in WA said:


> Ask the roofer if he noticed any ”soft” spots while walking around. Or have him walk the whole roof and you mark them in the attic for future additional support later, if concerned. Pay extra for his time.


This guy should count himself lucky when I pay him the amount we contracted for! Seriously, getting him to come to the house to do the job has been hard enough. I doubt he'd walk around the roof and give us honest feedback. His story changes every time we talk, depending on what point he's trying to make. ("The old shingles are so brittle, they need to all be replaced." But when I complain that they're hitting the house as they fall, it's all "they're soft and bendable, don't worry.")



GBR in WA said:


> Adding the combined loads (live/dead), with the on-center spacing, species of wood, and rafter ties/ridge height adjustment factor will give the safe span of sized rafters:


I'd gone through these charts before myself, but unfortunately I don't know what kind of wood the rafters are made from. Also...what is "safe span"? Span of what? I didn't really understand this part of the code.



GBR in WA said:


> Your State has different snow loads for various locations, use yours for the tables in the previous link;


I found this memo online the other day. We're either 20 or 25 -- we seem to be right on the line. Luckily, we're not in the snow belt. Not that we can't get a freak storm. But we typically don't get a ton of snow. We're only 12 miles or so West of NYC.



GBR in WA said:


> I would be concerned about the lower shed roofs with a heavy snow load rather than the steeper higher roofs which shed the snow easier.
> “Multilevel roofs (when the lower roof is subject to an accumulation of sliding or drifting snow or accumulation of snowmelt) and “Valleys (subject to substantial snow or ice
> accumulation due to drifting, sliding or melting)” From/example given;


From that I'd worry most about the porch roof. But it has a decent slope, and it gets some overhang protection. We haven't seen any evidence that it's been having any trouble with the load. No sagging, creaking, cracking, etc. It seems like a decent porch roof!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I wish my attic was as clear as yours.How do you fight the temptation of using it for storage ? But then again there is not much clearance to really utilize the space unless you were a Hobbit.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I wish my attic was as clear as yours.How do you fight the temptation of using it for storage ? But then again there is not much clearance to really utilize the space unless you were a Hobbit.


In fact, there is a special room just for storage! It's called a trunk room. Which was generally a small, finished room in an otherwise unfinished attic. Ours has an original gas fixture for light (no longer working), but no heat. And we do indeed use it for limited storage. 

Overall, my goal in life is to not have many things that need to be stored. Cause if I'm not using it, why do I own it?!

You can just see into the trunk room in the pictures I posted previously. But here's a closer look:





























The previous owners, on the other hand, had the attic (and basement) so crammed with stuff we could barely see the walls!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> In fact, there is a special room just for storage! It's called a trunk room. Which was generally a small, finished room in an otherwise unfinished attic. Ours has an original gas fixture for light (no longer working), but no heat. And we do indeed use it for limited storage.
> 
> Overall, my goal in life is to not have many things that need to be stored. Cause if I'm not using it, why do I own it?!
> 
> ...


I have to admit I like the flashlight holder in the last picture. :thumbsup:

I am not too sure about leaving kerosene in a hot attic,,,or what ever is in that yellow fuel container.My wife keeps our home very,very clean.I do really good with keeping the garage organized but you would never believe the way my attic looks compared to our home,,,but then again I am in charge of the attic and its quite a mess because of it I assume.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I have to admit I like the flashlight holder in the last picture. :thumbsup:


You mean this flashlight holder?










That's the last remaining original gas fixture arm in the house. The rest were all removed at some point and capped. And then splattered with plaster and paint over the many years. I have a goal to replace them all with matching arms, and appropriate glass globes. If I ever complete the 6,423 things on the list above that, I'll be sure to get it done!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Personally I would move it to another spot where one once was.I wonder if it is brass ? Maybe only for cosmetic but I think it would be cool to keep.The only reason I would move it is because its a very nice piece that seems original for the home and IMO its going to waste being stuck upstairs and out of view.

Yay,,,I am the 2013th viewer of this thread,,,,I feel special.


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## mgp roofing (Aug 15, 2011)

Hren said:


> You mean this flashlight holder?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! I'd clean it up and install it somewhere it would be seen like in an entry or living area, rather than out of sight in a storage room. I thought having a few original 1930s electric fittings in my home was nice, but that is even better!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Fun new start to the day today.

The roofers started cutting ridge vents into the roof. :furious:

As you all know, we never discussed venting. A lot of folks feel that it's necessary, and some feel that it's not. I don't know one way or the other which is right. But I do know that my house doesn't have vents. And if he was gonna ADD vents, he needed to put that in the contract!

We stopped work and spoke to him about it. He said he always intended to put in ridge vents. (He didn't seem to want to add soffit vents, mind you. Just ridge vents.) And he insisted that the roof won't pass inspection without the ridge vents. 

We said he could continue work on all things already listed on the contract. And that he needed to write another addendum to the contract with all the necessary details about venting, and we would make a decision of how we want to move forward.

Now I need to go to the code enforcement office and see if he's right about passing inspection. And then I have to decide if we want ridge vents with no soffit vents anyway.

And if not, I have to decide if we can walk away from the $7k we've already paid him, and have to start fresh with someone else.

No matter what, this guy is getting a scathing review on Yelp. And I may have to build an effigy of him to get some of my aggression out in a legal manner.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Fun new start to the day today.
> 
> The roofers started cutting ridge vents into the roof. :furious:
> 
> ...


This guy may or may not have had good intentions but customer care and consideration seems to be at a loss.Makes you wonder how people can stay in business that long by doing things like that ? Or what makes you so special ? Yeah lucky you. :wink:

People install ridge vents without functioning soffit all the time.It works but ideally ridge vent and soffit combo is the best ventilation system right now.Btw,its always a good idea to have a copy of code requirements and restrictions so you can confirm your roofers installations.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Sure, people _install _ridge vents without soffit vents all the time. But that doesn't mean it's ok!

So, pardon me now while I pretend that my few months research on this trumps your actual experience with roofing. :wink: (Honestly, though, feel free to correct me where I'm getting this wrong. I'm here to learn, not just to whinge on about my opinions.)

I don't really buy the line that shingle life is extended by adding vents. My attic air doesn't get anywhere near as hot as the sunlight itself heats the outside of the shingles. I can't see how lowering the air temperature a few degrees (at most) under the shingles could possibly make a difference. It's like putting cold butter into a hot frying pan, and pretending that'll keep the pan from getting very hot. Let's just throw that idea out the window and move on.

The idea of a ridge vent is that it exhausts air out of the top-most part of the house. If you don't have soffit vents, where does that air come from? Well, from inside the house, of course! 

We have no insulation in the attic floor. Which means that all of our conditioned air will be pulled from the second floor into the attic and vented out the roof. In Summer, this means we'll be tossing expensive cold air out of roof. In Winter, it means we'll also be heating up the attic and possibly melting snow and causing ice dams.

So, no matter what way I look at it, I can't see adding a ridge vent and no other vents. And, frankly, I don't want any vents at all!

But all of this is incidental. The contract doesn't say anything about vents, and the  started cutting into my beloved house with circular saws! If he's willing to do that without asking, what the heck else is he doing that I don't know about?! This :jester: needs to have his licenses revoked.

(I'm using smileys cause I can't use the words I wanna use in such polite company!)


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Sure, people _install _ridge vents without soffit vents all the time. But that doesn't mean it's ok!
> 
> So, pardon me now while I pretend that my few months research on this trumps your actual experience with roofing. :wink: (Honestly, though, feel free to correct me where I'm getting this wrong. I'm here to learn, not just to whinge on about my opinions.)
> 
> ...


I could explain the importance of ventilation as well as the manufacture but bottom line if you don't want the installation its your choice not to have it.

Should your contractor have discussed and explain ventilation and the procedure of installation prior to "Just doing it ",,Yes Why not have him install about 20 or so soffit vents ? They cost about $2 each. I threw the number 20 out not as if I know the actual amount needed but a vague number.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Aw heck-- my entire post is moot anyway. I just spoke to the building inspector, and he will fail the job for not having a ridge vent. 

He will also fail the job for under 5 nails in the shingles, and for nails that don't connect the sheathing to the rafters. So at least he's on my side there! We'll see what happens when he actually comes to the house, though.

So now we have to get a ridge vent. And, quite honestly, if this had been in the original estimate, we might have opted for the repair only. My verdict is still out on venting, and I wouldn't have subjected my beautiful house to it if I didn't have to.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Aw heck-- my entire post is moot anyway. I just spoke to the building inspector, and he will fail the job for not having a ridge vent. Stupid ing er.
> 
> He will also fail the job for under 5 nails in the shingles, and for nails that don't connect the sheathing to the rafters. So at least he's on my side there! We'll see what happens when he actually comes to the house, though.
> 
> So now we have to get a ridge vent. And, quite honestly, if this had been in the original estimate, we might have opted for the repair only. My verdict is still out on venting, and I wouldn't have subjected my beautiful house to it if I didn't have to.


Hmmm,,,I really hope you will keep us posted because I am VERY interested in the plywood installation.And I have to admit the thoughts and views of the plywood installation by the inspector.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

The fact that he didn't have installing ridge vent (where none previously existed) in the quote leads me to believe he may not have originally been planning on doing that. And maybe decided to do it after your complaints in an attempt to give the appearance of doing it right and meeting shingle warranty requirements. Then again, the fact that he delayed installing the ridge caps (I thought you had mentioned that earlier in the thread) may mean he did intend to do this all along and just left it for last. Not that any of this really matters at this point. 

I would agree with you that venting on an old house is not a simple issue, so good for you for questioning it (I'm not saying you're right, just complimenting you for using your brain). Since your attic is very much open and accessible and since it is now winter, you should easily be able to see if you are having condensation problems. With an old attic like that that's large and open with several exposed exterior walls and windows present, my guess is you probably already get a fair amount of air flow through that space, and maybe that's enough for your needs (I honestly don't know). Things could change if you added something like a whole house humidifier (assuming you aren't already using one). I think you also mentioned that you open the windows in the summer? That may resolve any heat buildup issues. 

Since you've already done some research, you already know there are many many opinions and theories on attic venting. You're never going to get a consensus on what you should do, so ultimately it's your call.

Edit: oops, looks like you posted an update while I was typing. I am a little surprised that they would require (by code) a ridge vent for a shingle replacement job on an old roof that didn't previously have venting. Especially since a ridge vent by itself isn't considered "proper venting". 

It also sounds like you just talked your inspector into failing your roof inspection. That may not have been the outcome had you not brought this stuff up to him. This may help you with your contractor issues, then again, it may turn this into an even bigger mess. I'm thinking this thread is going to go on for quite a while.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Hmmm,,,I really hope you will keep us posted because I am VERY interested in the plywood installation.And I have to admit the thoughts and views of the plywood installation by the inspector.


He told me sheathing orientation does not matter at all.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Why not have him install about 20 or so soffit vents ? They cost about $2 each. I threw the number 20 out not as if I know the actual amount needed but a vague number.


Because this is an historic house that has been left largely unaltered since it was built. And I'm not cutting into my beautiful 105 year old bead board soffits! We are restoring the house, very carefully, piece by piece. We only even considered this roofing job because a tree fell on the house. And these jackasses-- who claim they are in the business of historic restoration-- are treating it like it's a piece of crap 1990s vinyl sided townhouse!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> He told me sheathing orientation does not matter at all.
> 
> Can you see why I don't trust ANYONE?! These people all seem like idiots to me!


You wanna see something else horrific to the homeowners ? Google requirements and training to become a home inspector or a building inspector in your area.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren said:


> Can you see why I don't trust ANYONE?! These people all seem like idiots to me!


You've just learned an invaluable lesson. One that has served me well over the years. :thumbsup:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> It also sounds like you just talked your inspector into failing your roof inspection. That may not have been the outcome had you not brought this stuff up to him. This may help you with your contractor issues, then again, it may turn this into an even bigger mess. I'm thinking this thread is going to go on for quite a while.


I tried very hard NOT to do just that! I asked very neutrally to begin with. But he said that in all cases, a roof without a ridge vent would be failed. 

I asked four different ways if we could get around it-- it's an old house, it never had any vents, there are no soffit vents, we already had ventilation through fans-- and he very simply and without explanation said "it'll fail without a ridge vent". (When I said "but we have no soffit vents" he said "that's just fine.") 

He also answered all of my other questions immediately, and without consideration. Bad nails: fail. Missing nails: fail. Plywood orientation: no problem. 

So...while I think it's entirely possible to wink wink nudge nudge your way through an inspection in this town, I don't think my questions changed the outcome. Because I wasn't gonna allow the contractor to fudge his way through this one in the first place!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

So he wants to use TriBuilt Airflow Ridge Vent. Which, from my Googling, is just a roll of what looks like fish tank filter mesh.










Is this as much of a low-end vent as I think it is? A roll of mesh? Why not just stuff some old jeans up there?!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> So he wants to use TriBuilt Airflow Ridge Vent. Which, from my Googling, is just a roll of what looks like fish tank filter mesh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very low end IMO.You want a ridge vent with an external baffle.IMO those roll type are junk they get clogged and in some cases soak up moisture creating wet spots around the area of decking cut to allow the air to escape.

I prefer hand driven 3" Ridge nails.Some may say the roll type you can shoot with a nail gun are more effiecient and equally sturdy but I think not.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Edited


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Done, and done, and done. Maybe you can do a switcharoo on your helpful but now-too-exposing post there, too.


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## AtticBaffled (Jun 5, 2010)

Hren, from what I read it seems you say you don't have any insulation in your attic. Is that really true? Could it be that your attic doesn't get very hot in the summer because it is being air-conditioned due to lack of insulation?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

AtticBaffled said:


> Hren, from what I read it seems you say you don't have any insulation in your attic. Is that really true? Could it be that your attic doesn't get very hot in the summer because it is being air-conditioned due to lack of insulation?


It's true that we have no insulation. As far as we know, we have none in the house at all. (It's a wood frame house, with plaster and lathe walls, and pine wood floors with no subfloors.) 

We also don't have central air. (Nor, to answer a question in another post, do we have a whole house humidifier. We have forced air heat, if that matters to anyone.  ) 

We have two window AC units; one in the living room on the first floor and one in the bedroom on the second floor. The bedroom has a door, and the AC is only used overnight with the door closed. The first-floor unit cools a fairly open space downstairs, as our living room, dining room, and foyer have giant open doorways between them. On the other hand, it's less than 500 square feet for those three spaces all together.

So, to respond to your original guess, yes and no. Yes, the attic is likely drawing air from the house already. But as there are no roof vents, it's not drawing much. Also, we use circulating fans in the attic windows 3 seasons out of the year. So there's a lot more of a chance that the air is coming in and out through those windows, and not from below and up through the floor or the attic door.

Once a ridge vent is added to the picture, if proponents of venting are to be believed, the house will be trying to vent MUCH MORE air our of the roof. And that air will be pulled far more forcefully from below. Without soffits, it'll be pulled from the rest of the house.

My plan, since we are being FORCED to add a ridge vent against our will, is to leave the attic windows slightly open all year round with little vents in them to keep the squirrels out. (Have I told you all about the 3 squirrels that got trapped in the attic when the roofers closed up the big hole? Fun!) 

How very stupid this all is. But we don't seem to have much choice.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren said:


> Once a ridge vent is added to the picture, if proponents of venting are to be believed, the house will be trying to vent MUCH MORE air our of the roof. And that air will be pulled far more forcefully from below. Without soffits, it'll be pulled from the rest of the house.


I don't think it is going to be quite so dramatic. If it were my house, I would look to block off the areas where air can move from your heated space into the attic space. In an old house, there can be many places where this happens. I'd start by treating that door to your attic like an exterior door and weatherstrip it accordingly. Then find ways to seal around all ceiling light fixtures, all electrical switches and outlets (especially if your house is balloon framed, but even if not). See what you can seal from above in the attic. Something like this on a really cold day http://www.smokepencil.com/ can help you test suspect areas to see air movement.

Obviously you should also look to block any areas where outside air can get into your heated space. It's tough on an old house like that, but any place you can seal up will help.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> I don't think it is going to be quite so dramatic. If it were my house, I would look to block off the areas where air can move from your heated space into the attic space. ...Obviously you should also look to block any areas where outside air can get into your heated space. It's tough on an old house like that, but any place you can seal up will help.


We are huge believers in sealing our space well. I have spent hours tracking down individual drafts our doors. We've got very good quality aluminum (not vinyl!) triple-track storm windows (one of the best decisions a previous owner made) and decent storm doors, the latter of which I've reinforced with a few different kinds of weatherstripping. We will be replacing the storm doors at some point soon.

Our best heating/cooling coup is a recent one. We re-hung the heavy swinging door that goes between the kitchen and the rest of the downstairs living space. It had been stored in the attic. The kitchen is unheated, as many original kitchens were since the stove is in the there. Our kitchen also has an exterior door, and a door to the basement which also leads to another exterior door. By blocking the air exchange from the largely-open-plan rest of the downstairs, suddenly our kitchen is freezing and we can keep our thermostat 2-4 degrees lower! It's awesome!

I can't wait until the Summer to see how the AC stays in the living space, and the oven heat stays in the kitchen!

Now should I tell you all about how I also regulate temperature with strategic use of blackout and sheer shades, too? :wink: Sorry to be kinda nerdy about such a boring topic. But I'm very proud of how we keep the house temperature regulated using such a relatively low amount of electricity and gas.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Interesting thread.
Personally we've always run ridge vent as required by local code.We also include a price for venting the soffit so
the HO can add to the contract or complete at a future date.
Most older homes have some air leaking in through the attic walls and/or soffit areas to provide some air flow
without adding the soffit vents.
Have you ever seen the black dust streaks below old soffit/trim joints?Sure sign of escaping air/heat.
We have the HO monitor the attic area for wet plywood and/or frost balls on the protruding nails before
making a decision on needed soffit venting.
If you plan on adding insulation at some point,you'll be happy to have that ridge vent already installed.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> Something like this on a really cold day http://www.smokepencil.com/ can help you test suspect areas to see air movement.


By the way, if anyone's got an old Lionel train set, you can use your engine to do the same thing! :thumbup:



oldfrt said:


> If you plan on adding insulation at some point,you'll be happy to have that ridge vent already installed.


No insulation plans for us! We've not had any need for it yet. The stuff is more trouble than it's worth, especially in an old house like ours.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Another day, another fun problem. And I need yalls help again.

This morning the crew doesn't show up for work. When I ask this guy what's up, he gives me four different answers. Then settles on one: he has "some issues" he needs to discuss with me about the lower roofs. He wants a meeting. I'm not available today, so I tell him to email me details. I have to basically beg to get him to do it. 

Once he sends the emails, the issues are now with all of the dormers, and with all of the lower roofs. The siding shingles above them are too high, so the standard flashing doesn't reach them, and many are rotting. He wants to talk about options (materials, color, spacing) with me for replacing them and come to an agreement on price.

Now, I'm just a simple country lawyer*, but it seems to me that this should have been included in the original job estimate/contract? I mean, it's not like the siding shingles are hidden. He didn't have to remove the old roof to see where they are. And they haven't moved since he quoted me the job.

Am I the one being nutty here, or is this unreasonable?

And before you ask, no, there's nothing in the contract stipulating how to handle additional costs / new issues. Which is an oversight on my part. I've insisted on that in my other contracts and we rushed this one because of the insurance issues. But then again, this isn't a "new" issue.


*This is a Matlock joke. I'm not actually a lawyer. Right now I wish I were.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> Another day, another fun problem. And I need yalls help again.
> 
> This morning the crew doesn't show up for work. When I ask this guy what's up, he gives me four different answers. Then settles on one: he has "some issues" he needs to discuss with me about the lower roofs. He wants a meeting. I'm not available today, so I tell him to email me details. I have to basically beg to get him to do it.
> 
> ...


So,,,this is something that came up today ? I mean how long has this cat been on the damn roof ? This is getting to be very annoying and I am not the homeowner.

As is with all contracts there are realistic issues "Unforeseen" But as long as this has been going on there IMO isn't too much not seen thus far.

Its simple salesmanship,,,you have a roof,,you look at the roof and ALL of its components.He is SUPPOSED to be the solution but IMO keeps himself out of the solution an in the problem.

When I look at roofs,siding,gutters or other structural components I look at everything from personal property on the ground in the workspace all the way up to the chimney cap.(And everything in between) That's a part of contracting.

Its my job to make sure there is nothing unseen and everything is processed accordingly within my contracts.

I have the unforeseen in my contracts and they are typically for additional layers,bracing issues,truss/rafter problems etc.Pretty much things that are not visible due to the fact the roof isn't removed yet.

All of the "Visible or seen " issues should have already been addressed.I don't know what kind of cookie cutter contractor you have there but this is pathetic. IMO of course.  :furious:  :furious:


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

I really think this is a case of him now trying to do the job "right" after all the issues he has had with you. I don't think this is an oversight or some type of scam. I think he would not have addressed any of that if you had not started asking questions. And I'm thinking it probably would have passed inspection as well. So now he's trying to do the job he should have quoted you in the first place, but since he didn't, he wants more $. If he were a stand-up guy he would at least do it at a lower rate to just help him cover costs (not to add profit to the job). Plus, at this point I'm guessing he wants this job to be over with as much as you do. I'm surprised this has taken as long as it has. The roofers I see around here would have a job like thad done in 2 or 3 days.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I am shocked your even considering letting him do more work. 

We rarely do siding, we will make sure the customer knows if there are issues with it though if thats the case. My guys are there to roof, find a siding guy if you want that done. The exception is if its a very small area that needs to be done. For example, an old wood shingle wall that has no exsisting z bar. But this doesnt come up that much. In an area saturarted with 1000 roofers most HO are going with the low to mid bids, if i have to price in siding then i will starve from lack of work. 

Most of our customers do not even want all the bad wood replaced, doing a job in Costa Mesa now that specifically said no bad wood to be done. How do you reason with people like that. I either do the roof and we eat or we starve. Your roofer chose not to bid it, you should have at least been made aware of it. The desicion should have been left up to you to ignore it for now or get a siding guy now. Your roofer probably does not have the experience to do siding and i wouldnt let him touch it now...or i would monitor every move and at the first sign of trouble get rid of him. But i doute you want to sit there and watch his every move, i know i wouldnt.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

We have to watch his every move anyway. So far we have had to:

1) have him remove all of the fascia his "carpenter" put up and re-do it all because none of the joints were flush, and much of it was radically not level
2) make him promise to re-do the soffit repair, as he did not use the matching materials we contracted for
3) make him send the workers back to add nails to the shingles, which they applied only 3 nails to in some spots.
4) make him spot check all shingle work every evening when the workers are done
5) make him get his men to use adhesive on the shingles above the flashing, rather than nailing through it

And the king of them all:

6) make him stop work to explain why his men were adding ridge vents when they're not in the contract and were never even discussed!

I agree-- I'm crazy to let him do any more work on the roof. But we have an insurance deadline, and he was one of only three people that we could even get over to our house for an estimate. I don't think we could get someone else, especially someone to take over a half-done job, in the time we have left before they cancel our insurance. They'd never guarantee the work, since it was started by someone else. So we'd be left with a who-knows-what roof with no warranty against poor workmanship.

This is NJ, post Sandy. Home repair people of any kind are massively overbooked. We called around 10 roofers/contractors total. Most never returned our repeated calls at all. A few made appointments and didn't show. One of the three used the word "vinyl" which gets you a 10-minute major in my house!

Amazingly, this guy seemed the most knowledgeable. He talked to us about the different wood species that beadboard was historically made from, and he scampered onto the roof to show us how inflexible the old shingles were, and how rotten the sheathing and fascia were. He talked about how it was obvious that we loved our historic house, and how he wanted to help us restore it back to proper condition after the storm damage. He seemed like a great choice!

By the end of this evening, after about 15 emails, I have finally told him that he must replace any wood siding that he damages or has to remove in the course of doing the roofing. And I have told him that I will not pay extra for that, as he should have assessed the job better before he signed the contract, and I'm not paying for his mistake. I have not authorized him to do any other work on our siding.

Oh-- did I ever mention that after I complained about the damage his men were causing to my paint and siding by not properly protecting the house while they stripped the roof shingles, he told me he could give me a great price on repainting the whole house?!?!?! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: THIS MAN IS WACKADOO!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> We have to watch his every move anyway. So far we have had to:
> 
> 1) have him remove all of the fascia his "carpenter" put up and re-do it all because none of the joints were flush, and much of it was radically not level
> 2) make him promise to re-do the soffit repair, as he did not use the matching materials we contracted for
> ...


Need any tune ups or brake repairs ? Maybe fix that dishwasher that sometimes skips the rinse cycle ? Sounds like you could keep him around for a while.Its really not a joking matter but sometimes humor helps relieve some tension.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I need to ask for help, once again! I don’t know how I’d be getting through this without you folks chiming in with corrections, alternate points of view, and general support. I really appreciate it.

As you know, I’ve got a quirky roof line. Here’s the blurry Google Maps image of it. 










The 4 pink lines are hips. They meet at the chimney, which is the highest point on the house. The 2 red lines are the highest ridges on the house. They are just slightly lower than the chimney. The 2 yellow lines are the dormer ridges, which are lower than the red ridges.

The roofer cut into all 4 of the red AND yellow ridges to install vents. I pointed out to him that we have no soffit vents, and asked where the intake would come from. His response: “My opinion is that either of the ridge vents can serve as intake as they are positioned in different direction; i don't think that installing intake for the suffit [sic] or vent window will make any difference.” 

When I suggested that my research had said that using ridge vents for both intake and exhaust was considered improper installation, he had no response.

*sigh*

So, here’s my question. Am I right that the red lines should be the only ridge vents? And if so, how should he go about patching the other two vent holes which his men have already cut? From some things he’s said, I believe he just intends to run a new course of shingles over the holes.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

You can make any kind of soffit material you want with a good router table, but you cant make a good roofer with one. Find somebody who knows what the NRCA steep roofing manual is and belongs to the NRCA. If they dont know what NRCA means, dont hire them. If they cant read, dont hire them. If they drink, dont hire them.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> You can make any kind of soffit material you want with a good router table, but you cant make a good roofer with one. Find somebody who knows what the NRCA steep roofing manual is and belongs to the NRCA. If they dont know what NRCA means, dont hire them. If they cant read, dont hire them. If they drink, dont hire them.


I agree with you! Except about the drinking. I don't fully trust people who never drink.

You sound like a smart guy, so... any ideas for my roof vent diagram question?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Forget about trying to vent this roof. You will let in wind blown rain. Ventilation for the benefit of roof shingles is BS perpetrated by mfgrs as a scapegoat for bad materials produced in the late 70's (Oil Shortage) and early 80's. Think about how many homes had no ridge venting years ago, and their shingles lasted up to 30 years and more. Wood (The Deck) is an insulator. Color has a lot more to do with Max temperature of the shingles than ventilation does. Even then, convection cools shingles, not underdeck ventilation.

The guy you have is an idiot. You cant have exhaust without intake. With your configuration you would need a complete deck over sleepers to get ventilation. Forget it.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> Forget about trying to vent this roof. You will let in wind blown rain. Ventilation for the benefit of roof shingles is BS perpetrated by mfgrs as a scapegoat for bad materials produced in the late 70's (Oil Shortage) and early 80's. Think about how many homes had no ridge venting years ago, and their shingles lasted up to 30 years and more. Wood (The Deck) is an insulator. Color has a lot more to do with Max temperature of the shingles than ventilation does. Even then, convection cools shingles, not underdeck ventilation.


I completely agree with you. I did not want vents, and would not have hired him had his contract included ventilation.

Unfortunately, he cut vents into the roof without asking me. And our building inspector has now said he will fail the roof without vents. So, I'm being forced to install them. 

So I'm trying to at least install them in the least-likely-to-f-up-the-entire-house way. Any suggestions on my diagram?



jagans said:


> The guy you have is an idiot.


I wholeheartedly agree! I want to punch him every time we talk.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

jagans said:


> Find somebody who knows what the NRCA steep roofing manual is and belongs to the NRCA. If they dont know what NRCA means, dont hire them. If they cant read, dont hire them. If they drink, dont hire them.


Being a member of the NRCA is a prerequisite for being a high-quality roofer? Dang I guess I just wasted 30 years of my life. Guess I best put my application in at McDonalds.

Or maybe that's a very myopic statement


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Being a member of the NRCA is a prerequisite for being a high-quality roofer? Dang I guess I just wasted 30 years of my life. Guess I best put my application in at McDonalds.
> 
> Or maybe that's a very myopic statement


Don't believe the hype my friend. :whistling2:

N-No
R-Roofer
C-Consumes
A-Alcohol


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster! My best friend in the cyberworld! Hero of my roofing job! (Do I need to butter you up more, or is that sufficient?) Whaddya think of my little roofing vents post here?


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

If your attic is completely open, then yes only the highest ridges would be vented. If the dormers aren't connected to the main attic space, they would be vented separately. As is, assuming one big open attic, the lower vented ridges will be the *intake*. 
I noticed that your chimney is at the very peak of four ridges, that can be complicated to flash, hopefully hes up to it.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I think the ridge vent would function properly with soffits.

Since its code to have them then try to maximize its effectiveness.Or after your roof passes inspection have him remove the ridge vent,,,close the holes and install the ridge vent back over to give the appearance of ridge vent,,,hahahahaha


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

PatChap said:


> If your attic is completely open, then yes only the highest ridges would be vented. If the dormers aren't connected to the main attic space, they would be vented separately.


It's all one big space.



PatChap said:


> As is, assuming one big open attic, the lower vented ridges will be the *intake*.


And that would be bad, right? Am I correct in my belief that that would ADD moisture to the attic?



PatChap said:


> I noticed that your chimney is at the very peak of four ridges, that can be complicated to flash, hopefully hes up to it.


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I am now roflcoptering around the room. Cause if I don't laugh, I'll start crying again. Cause the horrible thing is that we just had the chimney perfectly restuccoed and reflashed just last year.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Or after your roof passes inspection have him remove the ridge vent,,,close the holes and install the ridge vent back over to give the appearance of ridge vent,,,hahahahaha


Trust me, I've already started researching how I can properly un-vent a ridge vent! 

Are you ok, then, with all 4 ridges having ridge vents? Even though the 2 dormer ridges are some feet lower than the other 2?


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

there should be flashing


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

See those roofs I circled? Wanna know why I circled them? Cause the roofers were here for 8 hours today. And in those 8 hours, they managed to remove the one layer of shingles and paper off those roofs, replace the rotted parts of the sheathing, and ice shield and tar paper those roofs. And THAT'S ALL. In 8 hours. 

Calling them :jester: seems like an insult to :jester:.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> See those roofs I circled? Wanna know why I circled them? Cause the roofers were here for 8 hours today. And in those 8 hours, they managed to remove the one layer of shingles and paper off those roofs, replace the rotted parts of the sheathing, and ice shield and tar paper those roofs. And THAT'S ALL. In 8 hours.
> 
> Calling them :jester: seems like an insult to :jester:.


Just making sure you get your moneys worth. :thumbsup:

But I would be extremely upset if the shingles were not installed after all that time.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

The 2 workers did not get the shingles on. Nor did they get the flashing or ridge caps finished on the porch roof today (which they started yesterday). 

But they did manage to get in a 15 minute break every hour, plus the normal hour for lunch.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> The 2 workers did not get the shingles on. Nor did they get the flashing or ridge caps finished on the porch roof today (which they started yesterday).
> 
> But they did manage to get in a 15 minute break every hour, plus the normal hour for lunch.


That's just a prime example of "When the cats away,,,the mice will play" That's why if I am not on site (Which is rare on steep) I will give a time limit on whatever part of the project being worked.If you let these monkeys out of your sight and given time to "Think" for themselves nothing is done and what is done has made you no money,the project is barely further along and you have some labor hours racked up.

So,,are they coming back tomorrow ? Or does the roof sit under felt the rest of the weekend ?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

He doesn't work Sundays. Which I didn't find out until he didn't show up the first Sunday.

He put plastic tarps over the two exposed roofs at least. Didn't put anything over the other roofs that have no flashing. And we've had no gutters on the house since December 19th. 

I still haven't responded to him about the vents, because I'm still not sure what to do. I'm scared of how he's gonna patch the dormer vents that h he already cut. It would be worse to have those vented than to have them somewhat poorly patched, right? I mean, open is really bad for lower dormer ridges, right?


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't know if its been asked or answered but did you hire a legitimate company?

This seems like way to straight forward of a job for all these problems to be occurring.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> He doesn't work Sundays. Which I didn't find out until he didn't show up the first Sunday.
> 
> He put plastic tarps over the two exposed roofs at least. Didn't put anything over the other roofs that have no flashing. And we've had no gutters on the house since December 19th.
> 
> I still haven't responded to him about the vents, because I'm still not sure what to do. I'm scared of how he's gonna patch the dormer vents that h he already cut. It would be worse to have those vented than to have them somewhat poorly patched, right? I mean, open is really bad for lower dormer ridges, right?


A roofer that doesn't roof on Sunday but leaves a roof partially finished till Monday ? How big of a crew does he have ?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

ParagonEx said:


> I don't know if its been asked or answered but did you hire a legitimate company?
> 
> This seems like way to straight forward of a job for all these problems to be occurring.


His license number is valid (and I saw his card, not just the number), and he didn't have any complaints with the town or BBB or anything else I could find. And he's got a good reputation in my area, primarily known for his historic restoration work. 

I'm stymied by all of this, too. The best thing I could come up with is that maybe I was an add-on job. And maybe he's using workers he doesn't really know, and trying to cover for them (and by extension himself) when he acts like my questions aren't valid. Which is no excuse! If he wasn't available, he shouldn't have taken the job!



Roofmaster417 said:


> A roofer that doesn't roof on Sunday but leaves a roof partially finished till Monday ? How big of a crew does he have ?


The largest "crew" has been 3 people plus himself. But most often it's just 2 people, and he drops in and out throughout the day. He doesn't do any work, though. Just climbs around pointing stuff out to them. I know very little Spanish (and it's his third language). But I know tone, and he's exasperated with them sometimes.

When I complained that more work wasn't being done, he said "what do you expect them to do, they are just two people?" When I, incredulous, said that he should hire more people, he shrugged and huffed like that was a completely foolish thing to say.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren said:


> His license number is valid (and I saw his card, not just the number), and he didn't have any complaints with the town or BBB or anything else I could find. And he's got a good reputation in my area, primarily known for his historic restoration work.
> 
> I'm stymied by all of this, too. The best thing I could come up with is that maybe I was an add-on job. And maybe he's using workers he doesn't really know, and trying to cover for them (and by extension himself) when he acts like my questions aren't valid. Which is no excuse! If he wasn't available, he shouldn't have taken the job!
> 
> ...



Sorry but that is not a 2 or 3 person job.You need 2 or 3 people on the ground playing clean up/gopher and just being there to assist the nailers.

That is at the minimum a 6+ person job.I have a picture of a roof we did this summer past.Its 51 square steep (Not as steep as yours but more work involved) It was a single layer shake.The first day majority of the roof was torn off,decked,dried in and cleaned up.The next day the shingles arrived and the roof started going back and the rest was torn off,decked,new skylighys,cleaned up and roofed.The job was done in 2 days.The 3rd day was for new gutters and aprons and counter flashing.And if I remember right it was me and 6 guys.

Your job and his inability to provide a big enough crew to get the job done in a acceptable time frame has costed him dearly.Its foolish to have that few of people on a job like that.Not saying it cannot be done but if for that to happen they would have to be a well oiled machine.The roofing gods would have to have all the planets in alignment.

Some projects are a PITA but its up to the contractor to have enough manpower that the job sucks equally for all involved.Putting only a couple guys on a house like yours just burns them out.That's how things get damaged and accidents happen.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hmmm,,,,All quite in Jersey ? Maybe they came back to nail those bay windows and severed her internet connection ? :laughing: :laughing:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Seeing nail holes is bad. Seeing sunlight is very bad.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Yeah, I took a bit of a break from the roof yesterday to work on some of the other house projects. Namely, some paint stripping in the master bedroom, and repainting our register covers. (And advising my man on how to make recovery media for his new laptop.) Today I'm making more burlap roller shades for our gorgeous wavy glass windows. A woman's work is never done.

And today we're back to the roof. The building inspector is out of the office today, but someone else in his office confirmed for me that we only have to have the top-most ridges vented, not the dormers. So, now I get to draft a lengthy email to the roofer to tell him what to do, and what not to do.

I'm still not sure how to direct him to close the vents he already cut. Won't he need to re-sheath, re-paper, and re-shingle them? How will he do that? It's just a 2 or 3 inch slit.

Any suggestions?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I don't feel its necessary to remove the entire sheet of plywood.But the strips should be replaced and done so with "H" clips.Its not as ideal as NOT cutting into the ridge line to begin with but will be o.k.

As far as the shingles it might be a good idea to replace those depending how far back they are cut.Installation without ridge vent calls to install shingles and felt to the upper most part of the ridge line,,,not 2"-3" short of the ridge line.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

3,573 views and 145 posts ? This thread is popping. :thumbup:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I wish my contractor was as active as this thread!

Another day in a long line of sucky days. I really can't wait until this job is over. I never want to see this man again in my life as long as I live. I don't even want to see his stupid ubiquitous yard signs.

He is now insisting that the reason they're not done is that they've only been working 6 or 7 days. But I know there have actually been 12 work days that weren't either a Sunday or a holiday, and we didn't have inclement weather.

So that's when I whipped out my job log, and counted off the days to him. Because I log everything. Because dealing with liars is one time when my obsessive perfectionism becomes a wonderful asset!

Go, Me!! :clap:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

This is an actual sentence that he just wrote in an email to me: "Also please confirm that we are painting the fascia boards with white exterior paint gloss or soft gloss finish Sherwin Williams or benj Moore"

Now, this is the very first time he's mentioned paint to me since we started the job. So the "please confirm" is disingenuous. And, um, what the heck is that sentence supposed to mean? When I asked him what he meant, he wrote "Just tell me which brand you want to use Sherwin Williams or Benj Moore and l will get white exterior paint in the finish yhat you want from them"

Turns out, he wants *ME *to choose what paint he uses. We had told him to match what was already there. I don't know anything about exterior paint! He thinks that *I *should be the one to decide the brand and finish?! WTH?! 

I told him that if he wants me to choose, then I'll need 2 to 3 days to research exterior paint. Or, he can do what he should be doing, and offer me an explanation of the best options, with his opinions on their strengths and weaknesses, and I can choose almost immediately.

I really cannot believe this guy!


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Now he is asking me to approve gutters and downspouts. On the spot, mind you. (How does he know I'm even gonna be home to do this crap?!) 

He had originally said he was going to use our existing downspouts, but now for some reason he isn't. I asked for the brand and style he wants me to approve, so I could look them up. He responds that he'll give me a sample. I tell him that's great, but I still need the brand and style. He emails back the brand info and the material specs (aluminum, thickness, etc) and leaves me a gutter sample. I ask for the downspout sample. He writes back that I should Google the brand.

And it's good that we're not talking in person right then, because that's when my palm would have wanted to make friends with his cheek.

I tell him that their website is full of information on wholesale sheet metal manufacturing, and I can't possibly be expected to find the downspout he's talking about when I don't even know what I'm looking for. He writes back "But l gave you the sample of the gutter".

Am I in an Abbott and Costello sketch?


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren, you're on the verge of turning into the bad guy here. You've been complaining about every choice he has made without consulting you, and now you complain when he asks for you to pre-approve his choices. You two need to work together to get this completed because you are driving each other nuts. This thread is starting to sound like an ugly divorce. 

Coincidentally, a roofing crew was doing an outbuilding of my neighbor's across the street yesterday. Technically it's a garage but it's the size of a small house. A 4-man crew shows up, strips the old shingles, puts on new shingles, all done and cleaned up within 6 hours. Admittedly, it was a much simpler job than yours, but that's how I typically see roofers work in my area.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

He has now left the *entire *sample books for SW and BM for me to choose a paint color. 

He thinks I'm supposed to go through *hundreds *of paint samples?! We told him to match the paint. That was three weeks ago. He's a professional house painter. He can't match a white paint with three weeks lead time?! *I'm *supposed to?!?! ON THE SPOT?!

Ok...at this point I'm just venting here, aren't I? I hope that's not too annoying. I'm just so angry, and if I don't blow off a little steam here there's no way I'm going to get through this with him. And I need to get through this! I need it done. And soon. Before I give birth to a cow.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

wrongdave said:


> Hren, you're on the verge of turning into the bad guy here. You've been complaining about every choice he has made without consulting you, and now you complain when he asks for you to pre-approve his choices. You two need to work together to get this completed because you are driving each other nuts. This thread is starting to sound like an ugly divorce.


It feels like an ugly divorce! You are welcome to believe I'm the bad guy. But I know better. I know what I've asked him for, and I know what he's producing. I have been "complaining" here about half of what he's done wrong. I haven't even mentioned the other half.

I never told him I needed to approve every choice. I never asked to approve the gutters or paint. I asked him to adhere to what is in the contract (to match what's already on the house) and to consult me when that's not possible. If it's not possible for him to match the gutters and paint, he had three weeks to talk to me about that. The DAY of the work is not the time to come to me in a big rush.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

You needed to have a good specification going in which clarified all of these issues. To complain about what the guy does after he does it because it wasen't specified is BS.

He might usually use rectangular corrugated downspout, and you really wanted round smooth, because that is what your house probably had originally. 

As far as exterior paint goes, anyone with half a brain knows that proper preparation is paramount. You want the best in my opinion? Pratt and Lambert Accolade® Exterior Acrylic.

I would use nothing less on high work where the cheapest part of the job is the paint, regardless of price. The work is in getting up there.


SW and BM are good, P&L is Excellent. 



As another poster here said, you need to do your homework. There is no longer a "State of the Art" in building trades. Us old timers fight BS every day to maintain quality, but trying to sell quality is getting harder every day with all the warranty pushers out there. I tell people all the time that I have never once seen a piece of paper with fancy scalloped edges keep water out of a building.


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Is he planning on painting in the winter in New Jersey?
I know it's just some touch up, but still. I'd wait.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I lol when you said you broke out the "log book". :laughing:

Granted your irritated at him for all this and you probably have him paranoid about making a choice without your approval. I am sure he wants the job done as much as you do, but he is afraid doing work on the chance you dont like it or complain he didnt get approval. 

He is at least working with you, he could have just walked...it happens. If it were me, i would pick a color for him. Same goes for the down spouts, i would just pick them. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, how quick you get there will depend on you two working together...even if you feel you should not have to do a damn thing.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I feel for Hren,,she and her husband have gone and are continuing to go through a nightmare of a restoration.

The thing that gets me is unless this job was won at a raffle during a job fair then he seen the job,bidded the job,won the contract for the job so he had to have known what the job entitled.

As everyone knows once the homeowner signs the contract worry begins.I don't care who you are as a customer these thoughts exist.

We also know that being very thorough with the project 360° secures the customers confidence in your companies abilities to follow through.

This IMO is the sequence of events that should have transpired;

1.Contractor is called

2.Contractor inspects the roof and any components directly or indirectly associated with the project.If its a storm claim he will inspect for legitimate storm damage or if not measures the roof and creates an estimate that is thorough and itemized..

3.Contractor goes over said estimate with customer and also discusses any findings that could be of concern or will affect any phase of the project or could affect affect pricing.Contractor asks customer if they understand the estimate and if there is anything they have questions about your estimate.Contractor once again discusses colors,material type,grade and performance etc.

4.Contractor wins the contract 

5.Contractor meets with customer to go over the contract for a second time making sure the contractor and customer are in agreement and understanding of the events to come.

6.Customer signs contract.

7.Contractor gives a defenite start date and orders materials.

8.Contractor provides enough manpower so the project is completed in a timely manner.

9.Contractor provides the materials,professionalism,workmanship and abilities within himself and his company/crews as he professed to provide in his contract.

IMO this guy bit off more than he could chew.All he had to do is give this customer the job they were paying for.That's it,,always more but never less.Maybe he should have looked at this customer as an asset rather than a paycheck.

Once this project started all the color,materials etc issues should have already been addressed. That's how that should be.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I appreciate all of the comments here so much. Even the folks who don't necessarily agree with me! It helps me to have a mix of voices, so I can try to find a reasonable middle ground amid the mess that is this roofing job. 

*Roofmaster417*... maybe it's cause you sound kinda like the voice of reason I already have in my head, but I REALLY appreciate the things you've said. You remind me that regardless of how I'm handling this (and I have my good moments and my bad ones) I'm not crazy for expecting things to go better than this! 

Right now, things have taken a pretty big turn for the worse. And we're just hoping to get through this last push and be done with it sometimes soon, so our insurance isn't cancelled, and we can get on with our lives.

If there's one big mistake I made, it's that I didn't make the roofer explain all of the options BEFORE we signed the contract. (Good call, *jagans*.) I should have made all decisions beforehand and put the details in the contract as specifics. Instead, we trusted that he'd work with us along the way, like he said he would, and we contracted some stuff as just "homeowner to approve" or "roofer to use like materials".

Because of that, and because of his poor planning, he rushed us through some major decisions. The roof shingle color is a good example. We had assumed we'd be given the different options, and our roofer would recommend a color and we could talk about why it worked or didn't with our color scheme and the historic flavor of the house, and then my man and I could look at pictures of houses online as samples, etc etc. Instead, the roofer came in, held up a shingle sampler, and said "I need to order them right now. I think you should get this one. What do you want?" 

Maybe we expected too much. But we didn't know that. And he made it sound like our expectations weren't unreasonable. So I couldn't have known when we hired him that we were expecting too much. I mean, I've never done this before! But now I do know it. And I will be better armed the next time we have to hire someone to work on our house.

The shame of it is how jaded I now sound. "Better armed." Like I assume it's going to be a battle. And that's really a shame.

I hope that as time goes on, I'll have enough good experiences that my attitude will change back again. Because I like being a positive person who trusts others. And I would really like to be able to relax and enjoy improving my house!


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## pulsar12 (Jan 9, 2013)

Hren said:


> I appreciate all of the comments here so much. Even the folks who don't necessarily agree with me! It helps me to have a mix of voices, so I can try to find a reasonable middle ground amid the mess that is this roofing job.
> 
> Roofmaster417... maybe it's cause you sound kinda like the voice of reason I already have in my head, but I REALLY appreciate the things you've said. You remind me that regardless of how I'm handling this (and I have my good moments and my bad ones) I'm not crazy for expecting things to go better than this!
> 
> ...


Roof master, I have an office in basement over a deck that I put a partial roof over and then tiled the deck. It looks like the tile was installed correctly
Flashed, then a PVC membrane then a concrete board then tile. But now the outside wall in my office is peeling paint and there are a few water spots in ceiling. Any suggestions


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Pulsar

I think you should create a new thread and provide some pictures for best results to your question. This will just confuse folks following Hrens situation.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly with Andy, as usual. Your description is pretty hard to understand. Post pictures, (Inside damage too) carefully describe your system to the best of your ability, where you live (very important with Roofing) What your problems are, and when they tend to occur. (Blowing Rain, Direction, Snow etc.) Im sure we can help you.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

(Can a mod move that whole question to another thread, so it's not a complete threadjack?)

And in other news, is your roofer allowed to subcontract without notifying you? Cause people just showed up to do the gutters, and they're a completely different company that I've never heard of. Is this normal?

Before anyone snaps back at me that I'm complaining too much or micromanaging this guy or what have you-- please remember that I've never done this before. So I'm genuinely ASKING, not complaining! I am surprised by this turn of events, so I'm asking experienced people if I should take my surprise as a warning sign, or if it's a perfectly normal thing to do and my surprise is just because I'm inexperienced.

Edit to add: I've just checked with Consumer Affairs, and this gutter company had a complaint last year that went to court (so they didn't have details, because it was resolved in the courts rather than by Consumer Affairs). I'm feeling really, really nervous here!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

It's kind of normal and there's not really anything you can do about it now except deal with any problems that arise with your roofing company and they will have to deal with the gutter people. You can always file a complaint later against your roofing company, saying they hire incompetent gutter subctontractors.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Generally speaking, with a general contractor, which sounds like what you have. It is up to the general to use the subs of his choice to accomplish work which is outside his capability.

I just had one af my preferred contractors install a new Landmark Certainteed Asphalt Shingle roof on my home, and he had a separate gutter fabricator come in and roll form all new continuous gutters. Most roofing contractors do not have gutter machines, so it is very common to use a sub to run off gutters. My roofer installed the gutters, he just did not fab them. And getting back to what I alluded to previously. Prior to him doing the roof, we verbally agreed on every aspect because that's the kind of guy he is. We agree, and its as good as done. Hidden hangers 24 inches on center, new fascia cladding, New Downspouts and type, Ice dams in valleys, at rakes and eaves, 4 hangers 6 in on center where I will be able to put a ladder up. etc. etc. etc. 

As far as picking the shingle color, That took me all of about one minute, Pewter. Nice and neutral so my home wont be dated by a fad color.

While we are talking color, I would never, never, never recommend a color for architectural metal or a roof color to a client. I generally tell clients to let the women pick the colors, they have a better feel for it. In my case I picked Pewter, explained why to my wife, and she said sounds good. And it looks really really good. Downright Classy.

I feel sorry for you, and I also feel sorry for him. Up to a point. I am fortunate enough to work with people that take a great deal of pride in what they do, and they know how I think. Belt and Suspenders. The funny part of it is that they often try to add training wheels too to upstage me!

You may want to stop the music and go over every aspect of the project with your contractor before going any further. The problem is that what he thinks is good, may not be good at all as far as you are concerned. You may want to develop a list of questions regarding the remaining work, and post them here first, before sitting down with him. 

You will probably get some difference in answers even here, but if you use common sense, and think about the answers you will be OK. 

One think is for sure, Crisis Management sucks. Have a good plan, and don't change it.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> I generally tell clients to let the women pick the colors, they have a better feel for it.


Ooh-- wrong answer! 10 points off for you there, bub! :laughing:



jagans said:


> Generally speaking, with a general contractor, which sounds like what you have. It is up to the general to use the subs of his choice to accomplish work which is outside his capability.


I didn't believe we were hiring a general contractor. His company does roofing, carpentry, and painting, all under the heading of restoration. He did not introduce himself as a GC, nor is GC written anywhere on his materials. I hired a roofer. He has had at least 6 different vehicles at my house since he started, and they have all had his company name on them. The people driving them have been the people doing the work. So, so far, he hasn't behaved like a GC at all. At least, in my understanding of what a GC is.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Hren said:


> So, so far, he hasn't behaved like a GC at all. At least, in my understanding of what a GC is.


It really doesn't matter. There could be a hundred reasons he chose to use that particular contractor to do the gutters. I doubt you signed a contract that said only employees of his company can work on your house. The contract just said he was responsible for making sure it gets done one way or another. If it gets correctly, you have no complaint at all. If it doesn't, you have a complaint with him directly.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> It really doesn't matter. There could be a hundred reasons he chose to use that particular contractor to do the gutters. I doubt you signed a contract that said only employees of his company can work on your house. The contract just said he was responsible for making sure it gets done one way or another. If it gets correctly, you have no complaint at all. If it doesn't, you have a complaint with him directly.


Thanks for the info-- so if I'm reading you correctly, the roofer is responsible even if he subcontracts out to another company. In other words, if the gutter guys break my windows during the installation, I sue the roofer cause that's who I have the contract with. And if the gutter guys fall off their ladders, it's the roofing guy's workers comp that covers their injuries. Yes?

For my own edification going forward, is it possible to have the main contractor make a list, right in the contract, all of the sub-companies that are going to do any work detailed in the contract? Is that something I can reasonably ask for? I would have liked to have researched these guys before I had them here at the house.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Jeff is correct. As long as the work is done according to the specifications he can hire who he wants. Key word here is (Specifications, like in specific)

To bad you didnt at least have reference standards, like NRCA, (National Roofing Contractors of America) and SMACNA, (Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning National Association) then you could point to them as the standard of work you want.

In commercial work, I have a place where an owner can stipulate who he will not accept as a sub, based on past experience, etc.

Now what is wrong with letting the women pick the colors, or saying that they have a better feel for it. I thought it was a complement.

Us old timers cant be politically correct even when we are trying to be, so whats the use of trying ? I guess Ill just stay crass till they screw me into the ground. :huh::huh::huh:


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

It makes a lot of sense to have a "gutter guy" come out and do the gutters. That's their specialty and they should have the equipment and skills to get you a good product and a good price. Obviously it all comes down to the specific gutter guy hired though. In your case, with all the problems you've had with your contractor's crew, you are probably better off that they are not the ones doing your gutters. In fact, you probably would have been better off had he also subcontracted the roof to someone that specializes in shingled roofs.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Hren said:


> the roofer is responsible even if he subcontracts out to another company. In other words, if the gutter guys break my windows during the installation, I sue the roofer cause that's who I have the contract with.


Sure. Of course sometimes these things work out differently. Sometimes if the roofer is slack, but the gutter company is good, and they might offer to cover it even if the roofer gives you a hard time.



Hren said:


> And if the gutter guys fall off their ladders, it's the roofing guy's workers comp that covers their injuries. Yes?


That's up to how they set their agreement up. It depends on the nature of the "hire".



Hren said:


> For my own edification going forward, is it possible to have the main contractor make a list, right in the contract, all of the sub-companies that are going to do any work detailed in the contract? Is that something I can reasonably ask for?


Sure, you can ask for whatever you want in the contract. Well, there are _some_ things that won't legally fly. You can't put illegal things in there, like "we both agree to not pay the IRS for any taxes on any financial transactions" or silly things like that. You also can't sign away certain legal rights. But you can certainly specify that no subcontractors can be used, or certain subcontractors must or can't be used. A common one would be something along the lines of your brother in law owns a dumpster service, they must use his company to get the job. Then at that point the contractor would say "I've already got a contract with another company and I must use them for insurance reasons for all jobs", or "I've got a big discount with this other company so that will cost you $100 extra", or "Sure, no problem", or "No, I refuse" and you go from there.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> Now what is wrong with letting the women pick the colors, or saying that they have a better feel for it. I thought it was a complement.
> 
> Us old timers cant be politically correct even when we are trying to be, so whats the use of trying ? I guess Ill just stay crass till they screw me into the ground. :huh::huh::huh:


 If you saw the way I dress, or my idea of "matching", you'd know why I laughed at that idea! I imagine you'd consider my sense of aesthetics to be very masculine.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

You mean like stripes with checks like Shannon Sharp?


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I had to Google Shannon Sharpe, cause I didn't know who that was. If we're going that route, I'm more of a Don Cherry fan.

But for me, it's more like workout pants, old tshirt, and an oversized flannel. Every day. Sometimes I switch it up with jeans if, you know, we're going somewhere special. :yes:


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Well, I wear sweat pants with the smooth (outer) side in as my usual garb. Why should I deal with the rough side? A tee shirt with a pocket for my Sansa Fuze MP3 Player, upon which classic books and the teaching company audios reside. (Currently The rise and fall of the British Empire) wool socks, sandles, (unless there is snow) and a hooded sweatshirt. Beard, Yes. No sharp stuff at my neck in the AM. I might slip. Oh, and a baseball cap, and lands end three season if its really cold out when I take McKenzie (Our Aussie Doodle) for a walk.

Think Ill have a cuppa with honey.

God Bless

PS Where are you in NJ? I grew up in NJ.

HAH LOL I just Googled Don Cherry, Now I know who stole all the drapes out in Frisco!!!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I do roofs,siding,gutters and have all the equipment to do them myself but a lot of time (Depending on volume) I am un able to do them myself so I have back ups.

My subs are hand picked and IMHPO are the best in the business for my areas of coverage.And if for some reason everyone is super swamped (Storm seasons) those projects will wait.Under no circumstances will I hire a new crew and use them in an act of desperation.

I have yet (Knock on wood) have an issue with a customer getting upset because I am not willing nor wanting to "Take that chance" reputation is everything to me and bringing change to an otherwise functionible scenario is out of the question.

If one of my roofers,siders or gutter guys damages anything or provides a "Faulty" installation I take full responsibility that's first and foremost.I will then contact the installer and have a meeting with the customer to address the situation.Everyone has something at some point that goes array but its all about how you handle the situation if and when it should ever come up.Bottom line is my name is on the contract and my responsibility in the eyes of the customer and the law is full responsibility for the project.

Any company for any reason can have a suit or complaint.Without the true hard cold facts its difficult to provide an accurate detail about the company.I always ask about the complaint.And I don't ask anyone but the owner also I don't have a whole lot of faith in the BBB just for the simple fact the KKK has an A+ business rating.And if they can have an excellent rating anyone can.

My wife plays an important roll in my business.So many (Several thousand) homeowners have asked her opinion in regards to colorzation,blending,mixing etc.And she is @ 100% with customer appreciation since doing so.NEVER a complaint with her designs.

The most difficult project I have ever done in terms of colors was a daycare.The customer wanted all the basic colors but mixed for siding.,The project ended up being 5 different colors,,,Premium materials in White,Blue,Yellow,Green and Red.Sounds simple ? The roof was green but she pulled it off and although the complexity of color blending,,she was the champion for this project.

Had I have designed the blend it would have looked like Big bird,The Grouch,Elmo in a blue Corvette had a head on collision with an ice cream truck.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Thats a heck of a comment for the kids in the Day Care Center.

Sesame Street wiped out in one fell swoop. 

PS Nice Ram.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Well, the gutters are done, and I guess they look fine. But we won't know if they work until there's a heavy rain.

There's some fresh damage to my siding shingles. It's right next to where there's a main downspout. So I have to assume the damage is from ladders.

Before we started the project, we had the previous owner's discount paint job that looked mostly ok, but would probably need to be redone before we could sell the house (assuming we were gonna be here at least 5 years). 

After 22 days without gutters, two heavy rain storms, four or five days of showers, two wind advisories, a roof's worth of materials thrown off the roof, and the endless moving of ladders and people against our shingles every day, we will likely need to repaint the entire house in the next year.

I ing hate this roofer, and want to do to his house what he did to mine.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren,,Most of the time people who do that type of rude stuff live in houses that are basically taped together with scotch tape and you could do no worse to their property.Cut the grass and you find extra lawn mowers and vehicles that during their drunken stupor called and had reported stolen but in fact the grass over grew the car.:laughing:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> PS Where are you in NJ? I grew up in NJ.


Essex County, right where Essex, Bergen, Passaic, and Hudson all meet. We moved from NYC about two years ago when my man got a job transfer. We're still getting over the culture shock. Correction: we'll never get over the culture shock. At least we found a good bagel place nearby.



jagans said:


> HAH LOL I just Googled Don Cherry, Now I know who stole all the drapes out in Frisco!!!


Hockey Night in Canada is a vacation treat for us whenever we go to Montreal. I lived up there for six months when I was in school. Don Cherry is an institution.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

_In today's episode, we find Hren once again on the verge of hysteria over her never-ending roof project._

So...the building inspector is sick today, and our inspection has been moved to the end of next week. Good thing I moved all of my appointments for today and woke up at the crack of dawn. UGH.

Someone wanna throw a brick at my head?

Seriously, though, I'm sorry for him that he's sick. It sounds like the horrible flu that people have been getting. And if he's got it, I wouldn't want him at my house anyway!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Don Cherry looks like he should be *in* an institution! LOL

Take it from me, That Flu is a B***h. I am still trying to kick it. Went up to my brother-in-laws and my sister in law was passing it around as a Christmas present, so you might want to reverse my first statement to: That B***h is a Flu.

Well good luck, anyway. Question, You need a Permit for a re-roof in NJ now?

What BS. Did you make any structural changes? I guess Obamas influence is trickling down. Pretty soon toilet paper will be a roll of permits that you pre- pay the local yokels for.

:furious::furious::furious::furious:


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I've only lived in Jersey for 2 years. So I have no idea what the rules used to be.

But I have no problem with needing a permit for a roofing job. I believe in the permit system. I think it makes sense to have a central, local, municipally controlled and operated group making sure that codes/laws/etc are being followed. 

I think permits and inspections are a great safety net for homeowners, who shouldn't have to be well-versed in the Building Code and Residential Code books themselves. And it sets the bar for tradespeople, many of whom seem to have no other authority checking, correcting, and updating their practices. (There is no continuing education requirement to keep one's contractor registration!)

The problem I have is that these municipal departments often seem to be poorly funded, understaffed, and in some cases under trained. So, for an example of being understaffed, since one person is sick my roof inspection gets delayed for an entire week. That means that the main portion of the roof will have been on my house for at least 15 days before an inspector signs off on the job. That just doesn't seem correct to me.

My other problem is that the permit requirements are vague, and not applied consistently. For example, I was told I had to change my porch stair footings to the current 36" depth requirement if I wanted to replace my crumbling stairs. Even though the existing concrete footing has been there for decades. But, conversely, the previous owner passed a permit inspection for the back deck stairs with the stringers resting on small pieces of slate above bare dirt! :huh: 

But less-than-perfect application of the rules doesn't sway my original point. I really do believe in the permit system.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

Permits for residential re-roofs _should_ be unnecessary, unfortunately with roofing painters like you've got there doing work, I can see the point. 

We don't have permits for roofing in my area, and I was wondering about the process, what exactly does the inspector do on a steep roof like yours? I can't see them setting up a ladder 2stories to check things out for real.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Yeah Hren. 

Let us know if the BI goes up on the roof, checks for ice dams flashing, Exposure, Nailing location and number of nails, How it is flashed, How the valleys are cut, drip edge etc. etc. etc. Please let us know, because I am very interested to see the report.

I know you are going to hate me for bringing this up, but if your specification had a requirement for a final inspection by the manufacturers technical dept with a written report to be issued to the homeowner and the roofer, That's the inspection you wanted.

You need to keep a copy of the manufacturers installation instructions at the time of installation, and you also want to keep a couple of bundles of the same lot number of shingles in a dry cool place in case you need to replace any shingles, or if you need original shingles for lab testing down the road. 

Here is why: Tests to see if a particular shingle meets an ASTM standard on a shingle that has been in service for a number of years are worthless, because the MFGR can simply say that the shingle has suffered unusual aging due to unforeseen conditions in service. They cant make the same claim about NOS shingles kept in a cool dark dry place, now can they?

As far as codes go, building codes are life safety codes and are minimal in most cases. They are not "Keep the water out of my building" codes. Case in point: In my county secondary protection is not required under vinyl siding. Everybody knows that you need it, and the vinyl siding mfgrs assn says you need it to prevent moisture intrusion. But it isnt a life safety issue, so the IRC does not require it, and neither does my county. I had a heated argument with the local building department about this to no avail. They are bone heads, and will not listen to reason.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Bumping you a week because he is sick is rediculous. They need more staff. Nothing like dragging out an already painfull situation another week.

95% of the time here, the building inspector doesnt get on the roof for a final inspection on a metal roof. They wouldnt know what is right or wrong unless it is an obvious error. In thier defense, they cant possibly know all the installation details for every type of metal roofing out there. Jagan is right about the installation manual, get one and make sure your roofer knows you have it lol...this should insure you make your point as to the detail lvl you are expecting. Make sure it is a current manual. Any deviation from the manual should raise a red flag.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

I hear you guys on the reality of inspections vs my ideal-world example of why I think they're a good idea. But I stick by my hope that one day I'll live in an ideal world! I have to, or I'll jump out the window.

I also hear you about the manufacturer's warranty and all of that stuff. Frankly, we're probably not going to be in this house long enough for that to matter. Because the warranty is non-transferable. So even though this roof *should* last 30-50 years, according to the manufacturer, they'll drop that coverage the minute we close on the sale. And that's probably going to be some time in the next 5-8 years. As long as the roof lasts that long, I'll be happy.

Not that I would purposely try pawn off a crappy roof to the next owners, like the previous owners sort of did to us. (They got the house re-roofed when they put it on the market. And they did it the cheapest way possible.) But I'm aware that by 5-8 years from now, the next wave in regulations and best practices will likely have hit, and people will be up in arms that we put in ridge vents and rant about how stupid we were to use ice shield. Or whatever.

In other words, the roof itself will most likely outlast the _belief _that the roof is sound. And at some point, the next fool will be pushed into putting on a new roof that they don't probably need, because a mortgage lender or insurance company or building inspector insists on it.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

By the way, it's raining. You guys think there's any problem with draining the gutter right next to the foundation? Nah, me neither.











And, why yes! Those _are _pieces of the old gutter lying next to the new one. He has cleaned the property thoroughly, people! What do you mean it's not satisfactory?!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Edited


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Hren,,,,I welcome inspections.There is nothing better and more gratifying to a contractor/roofer than having your roof or other installations past with flying colors by a knowledgible inspector.Better than that is KNOWING it will pass the day you sign the contract and pull that permit.

We have had our roofs inspected in many states by various building departments as well as shingle and siding manufactures without a single fail in the almost 14 years I have been in business.

Some areas I have heard about on these forums puzzle me in regards to roof inspections.Our roofs when inspected were inspected for felt installation,nail pattern,fastener quantity,drip edge,valleys,step flashing,exposure,ridge cap direction,overhang,J channels,F trim,siding offsets and pattern,siding fastening technique,window flashing and othe are things I can bore you with.

IMHPO those things should be inspected in every state,city,town and county NATIONWIDE.Also IMHPO many of these areas mentioned on the forums are nothing but a money racket.These inspectors (Not all) barely know the IRC to begin with.Pull a permit,($$$) schedule your inspection ($$$) and the inspector inspects your roof and the roofs of many others in the area to justify you paying your money and filling the pockets of your city without a proper inspection.

Your inspector is sick BOO HOO !!! So now that the poor little guy is sick your put behind.Maybe next time tell them when pulling a permit that your sick and will gladly pay for the permit next week if they would be so kind as to issue it today.Yeah right that will happen,,,as if.

So by chance is this "Building Inspector" also pulling double duty as the dog catcher or the meter maid ? Maybe he is an Alderman too.

With as much B.S as you have dealt with I think you should be committed to an asylum if you rely solely on this official saying your roof is installed right.I would call a manufacture representative to inspect your roof prior to final payment.

Why would you spend all this time and spending your energy (Negative or positive) and the money for these repairs without knowing for a fact its a proper manufacture warranty compliant installation ?

Having the mind set of your not going to be there since you might be selling very soon IMHPO is irresponsible as a homeowner.Why pass off a crap roof on to another homeowner.Homeownership in America is supposedly "The American Dream" Remember how happy you were before,during and a while afterwards about your new purchase ? Dreams and thoughts of "How awesome" "Imagine what it will look like " "Can't wait to see it finished" type of thoughts and dreams.,

Why crush someone else's dreams and ambitions by handing them a house with a questionable roof ?


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

Roof inspections are comical.

We had a job we did a few months ago (i posted a picture of it) that we had to pull a permit for. We had to replace this 40 year roof after 10 because the previous roofers nailed over skip sheathing, making sure that nearly no nails went into the nail line.

We remove all the shingles, install new sheathing and re shingle it. Call the inspector and he comes by, looks from the ground and says its good to go. I say "no wonder it passed last time." He asked me what that meant and I told him and he said that they don't actually get on roofs.

The extra $75 to the city must be nice though.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I would call a manufacture representative to inspect your roof prior to final payment.
> 
> Why would you spend all this time and spending your energy (Negative or positive) and the money for these repairs without knowing for a fact its a proper manufacture warranty compliant installation ?
> ...
> Why crush someone else's dreams and ambitions by handing them a house with a questionable roof ?


I hear you. But I think if you reread what I wrote, you'll see that I am specifically trying to NOT get or pass on a bad roof. I just have no idea how to make sure that happens, so I'm getting snarky and disillusioned.

The shingle warranty is the weakest part of this house of cards. Which is why we made the roofer put in the contract that his company will take over the manufacturer's warranty terms if his installation voids their warranty. 

Also, a person trained to inspect for a shingle warranty is not likely to have my best interests in mind. Are they going to do a load test and see if the horizontal sheathing works? Are they going to count the nails and make sure the code-required number of them go through sheathing into rafters? Are they going to check to see if the gutters drain an appropriate distance from my foundation? No. They're going to see a bad nail strike-through and tell me the whole roof needs to be redone.

And they may be right that the nailing pattern invalidates the warranty. Or that the flashing does. But who cares? My roofer isn't going to come back and fix it because of that. He has left the job, and isn't finishing the other very obviously unfinished work that I've pointed out to him. (That's the "turn for the worse" that I mentioned a few posts back.)

The only thing that he has said he will respond to is the building inspector. So that is where I need to put my attention. And if the building inspector passes the roof as is, then there's really nothing I can do about it.

Which is why I've been to the building inspector's office twice, and called them more than that. And they are now familiar with me, and with the fact that I have doubts about my roofer. 

I don't see what else I can do that will have positive results.

But I'm open for more suggestions!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Were Hanover Prest 3" Concrete splashblocks specified for your project? Or do you just expect that this guy will throw them in for free? 

Yeah, he needs to clean up. That should have been specified also, but it should be common sense.

It is pretty clear that what this guy deems acceptable, and what you deem acceptable are at opposite ends of the spectrum. 

Like I already said in a previous post, you need to write down your expectations, stop the job, and get on the same page. Letting him proceed, then complaining about everything he does is worthless.

You cant go anywhere without a map.

I am usually appalled at the proposals that most homeowners sign. They are usually so vague that I am always asking "Where's the rest of it?" Typically:

1. No start and completion date.
2. Very vague product information like "White Sheet Metal" (Gage? Type? Domestic Manufacture? Sheen? Actual color?) Product Data Sheets????

The real problem with residential construction is that nobody wants to pay a good consultant to write a good specification, because they think that the contractor knows what he is doing. Unfortunately, if the contractor is bidding against another guy that has no intention of providing half of what he intends to provide, he is not the low bidder, and homeowners usually always take the low bidder, then start looking at the original proposal when something does not seem to be going their way.

I always end up saying "Wheres the Beef" when I am presented a proposal on a less than wonderful project.

The one thing I stopped doing years ago is taking a handful of proposals presented to an owner, and critiquing them to sort out which one is best.
What a waste of time. 

You need a select group of contractors bidding on a comprehensive specification to get solid bids. Apples to Apples, not Oranges to Onions, or in your case, Lemons.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> Were Hanover Prest 3" Concrete splashblocks specified for your project? Or do you just expect that this guy will throw them in for free?


I had to Google that one just to understand that you were responding to my gutter downspout post. I hate it that you make it sound like I'm being a prima donna. I didn't demand high-quality new items for free, you know. :no: I'm talking about basic responsibility for finishing the job right.

We had an extender on the original downspout that drained it away from the house and into the yard. The new gutter guys removed the existing downspouts and replaced them, and did not re-attach the extender. They left it under the deck, about ten feet away from the new downspout elbow.

That is not something I should have to specify in a contract! Is it the end of the world? No. Does it piss me off? Hells yes! I spent 30 minutes in the pouring rain finding the extender, trying to get it to fit on the new downspout, getting the big pool of water away from my foundation, and then checking all the other downspouts to see if they were all connected. That was what we paid THEM for!

The other gutters attach to ground drains. Would you suggest that I have to write in the contract "make sure new downspouts still connect to ground drains"? Come on! This isn't rocket science!



jagans said:


> You need a select group of contractors bidding on a comprehensive specification to get solid bids.


I wish I could have gotten even a group at all. Forget a select group. I couldn't get people to even answer the phone after Sandy! Much less show up at my house.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Hren said:


> Forget a select group. I couldn't get people to even answer the phone after Sandy! Much less show up at my house.


Yeah but hey, the economy's bad, right?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

You are right. They should have put the extender back, and cleaned up properly. I don't understand how people think nowadays either. I feel sorry for this country, and you.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

jagans said:


> I don't understand how people think nowadays either. I feel sorry for this country, and you.



I have to agree.Too many stories confirming the lack of respect to customers and their property.Having the thought process of "Do unto others as you'd have them do to you " is almost nonexistent anymore.

Pride in workmanship is getting harder to find these days as well.It seems to be "Make that money" rather than build a reputation for honesty,integrity and a higher standard of ethics.

That's not just construction either.Cashiers,waitresses,postal employees,tellers,even door greaters have a sour outlook on what they are doing.

Did you know I even had a school bus driver flip me off last summer with a bus full of kids ? It wasn't pretty when I caught her at the stop light.Its just sad the way things are turning out.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

My entire life I ran on the idea "Dont worry about the money, do what you do well and the money will be there" It worked for me. Now I guess its get the money, do a marginal job, and on to the next one. 

Im too old to deal with the BS anymore.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I dont understand how this guy, who knows he is under a micorscope, could leave anything to chance at this point. This guy should be at the jobsite everyday supervising the corrections / repairs. Assuming his guys will do it right is just asking for trouble. We already know what they are capable of without supervision. At this point i feel like this guy is doing as little as possible to get a passing grade.



> The shingle warranty is the weakest part of this house of cards. Which is why we made the roofer put in the contract that his company will take over the manufacturer's warranty terms if his installation voids their warranty.


Wow, i dont even know what to say about that one. Based on that statement i would have the Manufacturer do an inspection and know whom is covering your roof for its lifetime.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

AndyWRS said:


> I dont even know what to say about that one. Based on that statement i would have the Manufacturer do an inspection and know whom is covering your roof for its lifetime.


That's what I am saying.She is eager to get him out of her life (And rightfully so) but is taking a chance of keeping him in the picture until the day they sell the house.

I would not give this guy a penny until my roof was inspected by the manufacture.I have heard of people sending red flags with their actions.

This guy isn't just waving a little red flag this guy is standing by a flag pole with a 50'x50' solid red flag blowing in the wind while wearing a red shirt,red pants,red shoes and a red hat screaming at the top of his lungs,,,BEWARE OF ME !!!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Based on what you have been relating to us, it is a good chance that you contractor will not be around in a year or two. Get a manufacturers inspection, and punch list. Make sure the punch list is completed and signed off on, and you have a fully executed manufacturers warranty. The problem I see with your home is that they could easily use lack of ventilation as an excuse to void the warranty, even though it is a bogus excuse.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

jagans said:


> Based on what you have been relating to us, it is a good chance that you contractor will not be around in a year or two. Get a manufacturers inspection, and punch list. Make sure the punch list is completed and signed off on, and you have a fully executed manufacturers warranty. The problem I see with your home is that they could easily use lack of ventilation as an excuse to void the warranty, even though it is a bogus excuse.


Exactly!

More than likely this will not meet the requirements of the manufacturer, and this guy wont be around to make good any claim you or the next HO will have. Paying this guy anything more is a mistake without the manufacturer inspection. I question if the roofer should even be present for that inspection, i feel the manufacurers rep could feel pressured by the roofer to "ok" the roof when in fact its not. His final payment is only due if it passes the manufacturers inspection. I would also require the BI to actually get on the roof to inspect every detail, and i would let him/her know that the manufacturer is also going to come out. 

You MUST get the manufactuer warranty, to pay the roofer would be foolish for a non compliant installation.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

jagans said:


> The problem I see with your home is that they could easily use lack of ventilation as an excuse to void the warranty, even though it is a bogus excuse.


I agree but it seems to me she really isn't concerned to much about the ventilation as she is for proper fastener count for steeper slope or wind compliance for her region,fastener placement,flashing etc.You know the basic entry level "Apprentice Roofing 101".

The problem with her roof and an inspection obviously is the pitch.But any inspector with a 32' ladder with stand offs can extend the ladder with the ropes attached to the ladder and lay the ladder onto the roof and inspect the entire roof,,,slope by slope.That is possible given adequate access of course.

I too would have the representative inspect the roof without interference from the roofer.I have been on site during inspections many times but I let the inspecting official do his job without me breathing down his neck or trying to influence the out come with charm.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

jagans said:


> it is a good chance that you contractor will not be around in a year or two. ]
> 
> I think she said he has been in business for 30+ years. :huh:


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I think that all of us that have been in the roofing business for a while realize that the manufacturers warranty is a double edged sword. It is written by the manufacturers legal department to protect the manufacturer.

Of all the reasons to deny coverage under warranty, in asphalt shingle roof systems, lack of adequate ventilation is the number one reason given. Why? Because it can be argued.

I have stated before on this forum the reason why the ventilation issue is unfounded, but it is still used by shingle manufacturers, and I am sure that they will never back off of the issue. For them it is a win-win situation, as they get to sell ventilated soffit and ridge vent. 

Is it good to have ventilation? Yes, to prevent ice dams. Does lack of ventilation overheat the shingles, leading to failure? No. Why? Because wood is an insulator, and all shingles reach a terminal temperature. Darker shingles get hotter, but then the heat rising from their surface starts convection currents, which pull air up the surface of the roof to cool them. Chimney Effect. Think about it, its pretty simple physics. 

The asphalt shingle manufacturers learned in the mid eighties that it did not make sense to be the cheapest guy on the block, when you already had the best value for the roofing dollar in asphalt shingles.

The shingles made today are pretty darn good, for the most part. When they fail, it is because of poor installation, for the most part. There are exceptions, but God is in the details, Literally. If your flashing's are properly conceived and detailed, and your shingles are properly installed, and nailed over a proper substrate and underlayment, you will be OK. If not, your roof will leak.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

You guys all seem to be ignoring the fact that the shingle warranty is non-transferable. These shingles most likely aren't going to fail for warranty-covered reasons before we sell the house. So the warranty is moot to begin with.

So, enough about the warranty.

This guy is a schmuck who scammed us into a new roof and didn't know what he was doing. We're the idiots who hired him, and who now get to live with the embarrassing error of owning a $14k roof that isn't worth $5k. Is the roof gonna blow off in the next big storm? Who knows? The last roof was a piece of ****, too, and it didn't blow off.

I'm done trying to figure this crap out. This guy is a scam artist. I fell for it. End of story.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Most Shingle warranties today can be transferable. Sometimes the manufacturer has to inspect at time of transfer, but they are transferable.

The bigger issue, in your case, is to have an inspection done by a tech rep from the mfgr so any deficiencies can be corrected. 

Or, you can just be done with your current contractor and have somebody good come in and fix the problems. Frankly, I have very little faith in the guy who messed it up in the first place fixing it properly, because if he knew what he was doing, he would have done it right in the first place.

You are probably right, the warranty would not stand down the road due to lack of ventilation, even though that would probably not be the reason for failure.

You need to get the flashing at the rising walls fixed. That's where your leaks are going to occur IMHO.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

jagans said:


> Or, you can just be done with your current contractor and have somebody good come in and fix the problems. Frankly, I have very little faith in the guy who messed it up in the first place fixing it properly, because if he knew what he was doing, he would have done it right in the first place.


We don't have the money. We just spent $14k that we didn't have. We don't have more to spend.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Yes, I understand Hren.

Basically, there should be a color matched aluminum counter flashing that runs up under the felt below the shake siding on your home. The flange of the metal should have a return hem on the bottom and slide onto a continuous cleat nailed at the base of the angle change. Some roofers use Ice dams material up under the felt, and out onto the roof, then nail shingle tabs through it, but I dont like it. I like the metal. Im sure Andy will chime in here, and maybe he has a way he does it, but thats my story, and Im stickin to it, as they say.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

So...new question... is it kosher for a roofer to skip the inspection by the building inspector?

*EDITED TO CLARIFY*: The roofer scheduled the inspection with the town for today. Then he told us this morning that he wasn't going to the inspection himself, and that he didn't think he needed to be there.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Hren said:


> So...new question... is it kosher for a roofer to skip the inspection by the building inspector?


 
Absolutely NOT.

The inspector could require the area to be inspected after the fact. If he roofed prior to getting the roof sheathing signed off, the inspector can still insist the sheathing be inspected. This would mean the roofer has to remove all the installed shingles on his dime. I doute this happens much, but it very well could be required if the inspector wants to play hard ball. 

If your roofer just plain didnt call it in or didnt get a permit and never planed to call for one then i would be very concerned. He is trying to cut costs and by that i mean no permit fees and sloppy incorrect work. Who knows whats going on under the shingles even if they are perfect...which we know they arent.

We do get a pass without inspection sometimes, but its limited to weather mostly. I will paper if its starting to rain and my inpsector is not there yet. I will offer to pull up the paper any where they like in multiple areas. Keep in mind this is in cities we do a ton of work in weekly and the inspectors know we replace all the bad sheathing every time. At times (cities we dont do much work in) i will take pics of the newly installed sheathing and general pics of the deck to show it was done and also that the sheathing was nailed properly. So long as you cover your a**and make every effort you should be ok. But if your not calling for one at all you got some big balls, they can require you to tear it off and start over.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

There is only one inspection, at the end, in my town. There is no pre-shingle inspection. 

He definitely got a permit. I've been to the code enforcement department three times myself. He got a permit, and he scheduled the inspection.

I've edited my other post to clarify that I don't mean that he's failing to get an inspection. He's just failing to be there.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I misunderstood.

I never go to mine. I will do a job or roof walk with the customer to address any concerns or questions they may have, but the inspectors here don't get on metal roofs. I hate to say it, but as far as metal roofing goes, they just cant know all the products and what is right or wrong as far as installation details go. A lot do, but most dont. We check the roof over, afterall, its my company who is responsible for the roof and if i want a paycheck and a job in the future, i have to inspect the roof. 

I do beleive they get on the comp jobs and look, but only if its 6/12 or less.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I call the inspection in but usually I am not there since I have more jobs to run.Generally (Depending on where) I call my inspections in before the roof is completed.

I have worked areas where it would take 2 weeks to get an inspection and a couple times I called the inspection in before the job was started.Believe it or not when I was in Florida the Building Department recommended calling the inspection in well in advance since they were so back logged.

I had a roof that was under tarps for 11 days waiting on a 2nd phase "Dry in " inspection and then they informed me of calling in advance.But generally a final should be inspected within 3-5 days of completion.

All my roofs 5/12 up to a 24/12 were inspected roof top and never just from the ground.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

After 8 days of not working, I told the roofer that I was going to have to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office if he didn't give us a firm schedule for finishing the job. Yesterday and today, he did minimal work to kind of almost finish the remaining issues.

Today he emailed me to ask if he can use me as a reference for his future home improvement projects.



If I ask nicely, do you think he'll share his crack pipe with me?


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## wrongdave (Dec 19, 2012)

Hren said:


> Today he emailed me to ask if he can use me as a reference for his future home improvement projects.


Wow. Sometimes I wish I could achieve that level of detachment from reality.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

and you didn't say "Oh Absolutely!"


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

GBrackins said:


> and you didn't say "Oh Absolutely!"


I actually wrote an entire email telling him that if he really, really, REALLY wanted me to talk to his prospective clients, I would be more than happy to tell them what I think of his work. :laughing:

But then I decided that there was no reason to encourage him to continue any sort of contact with me after this job was done. My Yelp review will be enough. I don't need to keep this nonsense in my life.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

chitownken said:


> Priced some custom moldings a few years ago. $750 to make the knives, $1.50 per foot to mill, plus the cost of the raw wood.


That's pretty insane, making beadboard is not rocket science, one could replicate beadboard with a router if they had to, I had to replicate clapboard for my 1930 house, I bought 1x8 pine boards and ran them thru the thickness planer at work on a sled made of MDF and a couple of cleats to angle the board.
Wood expands and shrinks, you can't really find new to match the old exactly, and a lot of these old elements were made on the job site or by a local outfit and there was little in the way of a standard, you needed beadboard or clapboard- they made it the size that worked best with the boards they had.

Those nails showing is a classic sign of LOUSY WORK, that area will leak without flashing.


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## Hren (Dec 26, 2012)

We had massive rain overnight, and very heavy winds. And, so far, it looks like the roof is still on top of my house. No obvious leaks in the attic. And while I can see one cap shingle has fallen, I can't see from where. So it's possible it was just left loose on the roof. (Not the first shingle piece they left up there.)

This is sort of good news, eh? It's at least not a bad start.


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