# Newbie needs help with pouring concrete and patio



## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

I agree you need help and a lot of it.

Before you attempt this as a DIY project I suggest you find a concrete contractor that will let you be helper grunt free of charge for a week doing projects similar to your proposed project. Check back and tell us your experiences. I realize this sounds rude but if you attempt this with no experience you'll be in for a rude awakening in my estimation.

But I will answer one of your questions. The roof does not get tied into the side of the house, at least not on my house.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

I've seen DIY videos on youtube and they don't seem too hard IME. I mean how difficult could it be? DIg a hole, set up frame, lay substrate, compact it, then pour away. Though I could be in for an unpleasant surprise. 

Not sure what you mean the patio roof cant be tied to the side of the house? I thought you could use nails to tie a ledger to the siding and from there add ledgers with joist hangers of course. ? Thanks!


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

In the last sentence i meant to say add rafters with joist hangers.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

20x15 is quite large area to be DIY if you have never done concrete before. Setting up and filling in the forms is the easy part. You then need to finish it. Without the proper tools and skills to finish it you could end up with a large mess.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Concrete work is physically hard, and requires more skill than you might think to get it right. The basic steps are to excavate the site, place the substrate, build the forms, place the concrete with reinforcing if needed, finish the concrete, cut the control joints, cure the concrete, and install anchors for the superstructure. For a 20 ft x 15 ft area, that is 300 square feet. If you place a 4" slab, that is 100 cubic feet of concrete, or about 4 cubic yards, which is more than most people would like to mix by hand. If you order a truck, you need to be prepared to place the concrete rapidly, since the truck is not going to wait around for you to get your act together.

This means you need several helpers, perhaps a crew of 4, ready to screed and finish the concrete. Very tough to get right if you have never done this before, so you definitely want helpers with experience. You want experience too, since the consequences of not knowing what you are doing is likely to be a slab that is not level, improperly placed reinforcing, missing or improperly placed anchors, forms that collapse under the weight of the concrete, cracking, settlement, poor finish, improperly placed or cut control joints, and other unpleasant issues. How hard is concrete work? Like many projects, it is harder than it looks, and there is little substitute for experience.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Holy Flying Chimpmunks...You guys won't believe what I'm about to tell you. I went over to my neighbor's house and he showed me his DIY patio, cover, concrete slab..the whole 9 yard.

He said it was a DIY and it came out great. He showed me all the shortcut. For example you don't have to dig much just a couple of inches down. He didnt use any substrate except the soil itself. No need for a mixer. What he did was pour the concrete straight from a bag then mix on the ground with a hoe and a garden hose. He also showed me how to spot stud from the rafter w/o a stud finder. 

I think some folks blew things out of proportion by telling you it's a complex job when it really isn't...well at least he made it sounds easy.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Well then please go ahead and try and follow his so called advice.
But please come back and post some pictures and tell us how his way works out for you.
The people suggesting things to you just an engineer and people that have been doing this stuff our whole lives so what do we know.
Only going to take a couple hundred bags, not counting what's needed for the footings for the post, going to set up before you finish poring, going to crack without the proper prep under it.
http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/howmuch/calculator.htm


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

What i said wasn't meant to be snide in any way. Sorry if it came across as such. I know it's going to be a monumental task for me but I don't think it's made out to be supremely complex as people, in general, think it is. 

His came out really nice, almost professional grade if you asked me. Should've taken some pics but didn't think of it when I was over. Didn't spot a single crack and it's been up four plus years, i think it survived hurricane IKE or some other hurricane, i forgot which one he said. He's not a carpenter by trade so everything he did was a learn on the go experience for him. 

I'll come back and post some pics when I get started. Probably a couple of weeks from now. Thanks for all of the advice and keep 'em coming.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

So your going to dump 200 bags of premix on the ground and mix it with a hoe?
That's the most ridicoulus thing I've heard in a long time.
Just one point that has not been mentioned.Around here we pay $4 bag.So your looking at $800 plus tax.Concrete from the batch plant is $110 per yard so that would be $440 delivered,mixed correctly on a truck.


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## mark3885 (May 22, 2014)

johnv713 said:


> Holy Flying Chimpmunks...You guys won't believe what I'm about to tell you. I went over to my neighbor's house and he showed me his DIY patio, cover, concrete slab..the whole 9 yard.
> 
> He said it was a DIY and it came out great. He showed me all the shortcut. For example you don't have to dig much just a couple of inches down. He didnt use any substrate except the soil itself. No need for a mixer. What he did was pour the concrete straight from a bag then mix on the ground with a hoe and a garden hose. He also showed me how to spot stud from the rafter w/o a stud finder.
> 
> I think some folks blew things out of proportion by telling you it's a complex job when it really isn't...well at least he made it sounds easy.


 I HAVE TO KEEP AN EYE ON THIS THREAD , this is going to get interesting, to say the least.......................


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

johnv713 said:


> Holy Flying Chimpmunks...You guys won't believe what I'm about to tell you. I went over to my neighbor's house and he showed me his DIY patio, cover, concrete slab..the whole 9 yard.
> 
> He said it was a DIY and it came out great. He showed me all the shortcut. For example you don't have to dig much just a couple of inches down. He didnt use any substrate except the soil itself. No need for a mixer. What he did was pour the concrete straight from a bag then mix on the ground with a hoe and a garden hose. He also showed me how to spot stud from the rafter w/o a stud finder.
> 
> I think some folks blew things out of proportion by telling you it's a complex job when it really isn't...well at least he made it sounds easy.


 
I love the people that come on the forum asking for help, then wind up telling you how easy it is,and we are all blowing things out of proportion.


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## 1995droptopz (Sep 14, 2010)

johnv713 said:


> Holy Flying Chimpmunks...You guys won't believe what I'm about to tell you. I went over to my neighbor's house and he showed me his DIY patio, cover, concrete slab..the whole 9 yard.
> 
> He said it was a DIY and it came out great. He showed me all the shortcut. For example you don't have to dig much just a couple of inches down. He didnt use any substrate except the soil itself. No need for a mixer. What he did was pour the concrete straight from a bag then mix on the ground with a hoe and a garden hose. He also showed me how to spot stud from the rafter w/o a stud finder.
> 
> I think some folks blew things out of proportion by telling you it's a complex job when it really isn't...well at least he made it sounds easy.


I poured a pad last summer, did it all myself, made the forms, mixed the concrete in my wheelbarrow, and did all of the finishing. It turned out great! But...it was a 48" square at the base of my deck stairs and took all day long. I could not imagine mixing enough concrete to pour an entire patio at once...


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

1995droptopz said:


> I poured a pad last summer, did it all myself, made the forms, mixed the concrete in my wheelbarrow, and did all of the finishing. It turned out great! But...it was a 48" square at the base of my deck stairs and took all day long. I could not imagine mixing enough concrete to pour an entire patio at once...


 

Yes 16 square feet is a lot different than 300 sq. ft.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

He said he dump a few bags on the ground and mixed from there with a hoe in sections. Not 200 bags at one time. 

Not sure if I can get the amount of concrete I need for about $440 delivered for my project. That'd be awesome if it was any where near that number.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Have you ever heard of a cold joint in concrete?Google it.The concrete should have 6 X 6 x 10 wire imbedded in it and a moisture bearier under that.Tell me how your going to mix this with a hoe with the inbedded wire and without ruining the plastic.
There are several pros on here giving you advice which you choose to ignore.
There is an old saying about concrete.Concrete is going to crack,it's just a matter of when and where". That is when it's done right.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Yes I've listened attentively with great amount of appreciation. I'm not trying to discredit anyone, just wanted to see how everyone goes about doing it. Seems like there's more than one way to skin a cat. 

My neighbor did lay down wire reinforcement and also had a few control joints etched into the concrete. Not sure if he used plastic but I'll sure to ask him later. He also put up lights which is also a plus. Thanks!


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

johnv713 said:


> He said he dump a few bags on the ground and mixed from there with a hoe in sections. Not 200 bags at one time.
> 
> Not sure if I can get the amount of concrete I need for about $440 delivered for my project. That'd be awesome if it was any where near that number.


Can a truck get into position in your yard or will it require a pumper?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

No you won't get it delivered for $440.00, since that
is the price of 4 cu. yds. and i'm pretty sure it's less than minimum load,so they will tack on a delivery charge, but I think it would still be cheaper than mixing it on site.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Sure would be far faster, less chance of it cracking, easier to finish, no cold joints.
Only right way to do it.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I'm smellin' a rat and thinking this is a spoof.:yes:


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Make sure you take pictures. I've never seen that, um, method attempted before. And have your neighbor explain how he didn't get a bunch of dirt and grass and s**t in the middle of his slab, which will also cause it to break down over time.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

So what does a rat smell like? 

Well Im thinking there are pros and cons for mixing on site vs delivered cement. 

For someone to deliver I heard you only get like 30 mins to unload, if it goes over that then you'd have to pay extra. Then I'd have to wheel barrow it to the back yard or a pump is needed. 

Mixing on site require more muscles but I can work on my own pace. 

Boy, my neighbor did everything himself and he sure made it sounds easy with no prior experience.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Mort said:


> Make sure you take pictures. I've never seen that, um, method attempted before. And have your neighbor explain how he didn't get a bunch of dirt and grass and s**t in the middle of his slab, which will also cause it to break down over time.



According to him all he did was flatten the soil just a little. No major work was needed. Patio still looks good after 4 years with no cracks whatsoever.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm liking reading this thread.....



Going to be putting in a large concrete slab for my storage building at the beach. Roughly 16x20.


Already spoke with an installer (I am not up for that amount of work). Since the truck cannot get into the yard, he said he could use his tracked Bobcat to shuttle back and forth.


Knowing that the cat will really make a mess out of the yard, I said I am wiling to rent a Powered Concrete Buggy.

I think the buggy should do less damage.

Opinions on the buggy vs. the track cat?



Going to ad something here: My driveway didn't have plastic placed under the wire. My patio didn't have plastic under the wire. I've never seen plastic put under the wire.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

ktkelly said:


> Knowing that the cat will really make a mess out of the yard, I said I am wiling to rent a Powered Concrete Buggy.
> 
> I think the buggy should do less damage.
> 
> Opinions on the buggy vs. the track cat?


 Actually the tracked cat Will probably make less of a mess than the concrete buggy. The ground pressure with the tracks will be much less so they won't sink in. They may carry up a little more of the service but that will be easily repairable.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Depending on the situation, a skid steer might do okay. It'll tear up the grass more than a Georgia Buggy, but grass grows back pretty quickly. Of course it all depends on how compact your soil is, yadda yadda yadda. 

If you want to go the Georgia Buggy route, get some of the cheapest plywood (chip board? Haven't priced that crap lately) and lay it down on the path he's taking. No damage at all. 

To a previous poster, most concrete companies have a per-yard unload time, with a one hour minimum.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Mort said:


> Depending on the situation, a skid steer might do okay. It'll tear up the grass more than a Georgia Buggy, but grass grows back pretty quickly. Of course it all depends on how compact your soil is, yadda yadda yadda.
> 
> If you want to go the Georgia Buggy route, get some of the cheapest plywood (chip board? Haven't priced that crap lately) and lay it down on the path he's taking. No damage at all.
> 
> To a previous poster, most concrete companies have a per-yard unload time, with a one hour minimum.


 In this area it's only a 2 yd. min.It will vary in your area but the OP needs around 4 yards.It is an hour to unload without any extra charge.We usually can dump an 11 yard truck in less time than that.
You just have to make a call and ask and have everything ready when the mud shows up.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

If you have a buggy or skidster,4 yards should not be a problem in and hour if your ready.
Don't listen to your neighbor.Do it right.Put in a good base ,compact it,add moisture bearier and 6x6x10 or fiber .Use an expansion joint at the house and cut control joints.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Good news. A friend of mine said he might be able to pitch in to help when I'm ready to pour. He said something about getting a piece of wood that needs to be put down between the new concrete against the house. Is that an expansion joint? 

Some peeps say i can get away without laying a base, just need to compact the existing soil. Will definitely cut CJ for sure as it seems to be the easiest part


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

is this an EJ? Thanks!


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-4-in-x-50-ft-Expansion-Joint-for-Concrete-EXP04050/203151902


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

You seem like your set on not laying a good base.Do you really want to go to all this expense and effort to have it fail?A good base is the cheapest part of the whole equasion.
You have received a lot of good advice here from some pro's and want to ignore it.What is the point if you are just going to take your neighbors advice and do it wrong.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Not that im trying to ignore sound advice from board members. It's just Im so confused as I've mention before, my neighbor who is a DIY guy. Then I have a friend who's been doing this for 15 years. 

Just a confused cat, that's all.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

johnv713 said:


> is this an EJ? Thanks!
> 
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix-4-in-x-50-ft-Expansion-Joint-for-Concrete-EXP04050/203151902


I am assuming your "EJ" is supposed to mean "Expansion Joint"??? Never heard of and expansion joint referred to as an "EJ", but okay. Whatever works for ya. EJ must be tech talk for those in-the-know. Obviously I've missed that key designation over the years.:yes:

When you click the link the click opens a Home Depot page and in big bold letters it says; "Expansion Joint"...so I don't get why you are asking; "is this an EJ" (expansion joint).


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Yes is it an expansion joint that goes between the slab and the house you guys are referring to? Just wanted to make sure.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

johnv713 said:


> Yes is it an expansion joint that goes between the slab and the house you guys are referring to? Just wanted to make sure.


Sure...Why not? 
There are other types but at this point you should choose "that one" and stay with it.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

The reason I asked because he did say something about an EJ made out of wood too. THanks


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

johnv713 said:


> The reason I asked because he did say something about an EJ made out of wood too. THanks


GOOD LORD don't go confusing things any worse than they already are. The Home Depot material shown is fine.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Around here we always use ",black board" for expansion joints.Never heard it called EJ.Think everything these days is abbreviated to much.Everyone needs to take a breath every once in a while and slow down a little.We have called it black board for years.It's a Celotex product.I don't think I'd use wood as it will just rot.
What you had in the link will work fine and is a similar product.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

mako1 said:


> Around here we always use ",black board" for expansion joints.Never heard it called EJ.Think everything these days is abbreviated to much.Everyone needs to take a breath every once in a while and slow down a little.We have called it black board for years.It's a Celotex product.I don't think I'd use wood as it will just rot.
> What you had in the link will work fine and is a similar product.


Yup! Here we go!:laughing:


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Cool. Maybe a stupid question but can i use the plastic sheet in the paint department at H omeDepot as a moisture barrier? EJ is something we use around here in my part of the world (Houston)


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

EJ is something we use everywhere.We just call it expansion joint.You can use the plastic at the HD paint department.Just don't cheap out and get the thin chit.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

johnv713 said:


> Cool. Maybe a stupid question but can i use the plastic sheet in the paint department at H omeDepot as a moisture barrier? EJ is something we use around here in my part of the world (Houston)


If you are talking about those cheap, low-budget, thin, skimpy, useless plastic sheets they sell for drop clothes then *NO*. All you will do is get your feet tangled in the stuff and hurt yourself.

Use a 4-6 mil plastic sheeting material like the big boys use.:yes:


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

They also have the heavy stuff in the same isle here. 6-10 mil I love the way HD thinks


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Haven't put together the form yet though I did clear up the yard of all the junks collected over the years, then im on to removing the hideous looking paver. Great info guys. Keep 'em coming!


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Trollin' at its' finest this thread is.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> Trollin' at its' finest this thread is.




Stay classy, my friend.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

I've never seen "EJ" sold in rolls before. Of course, aside from the stuff we had at the concrete plant I worked at, I didn't pay much attention. 

I've seen a bunch of older driveways that used PT lumber as expansion joints, must've been a fad at one point. They all look crappy now because half the wood is rotted and gone, the other half is moldy and getting ready to rot. (Side note: someone will come on here and say their driveway is like that and he's had it for 20 years and it's still perfect. I'm happy for you, dude.)

The stuff you showed will work fine, just make sure, since it's on a roll, that you cut it up the night before and straighten it out.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

its a rare exterior slab that uses moisture barrier as that practice is usually for interior work,,, no one recommends mesh in a 4" slab - certainly not ACI,,, obviously this work can be done 6b at a time,,, just use wood forms & keep moving them as needed

wood is often used as joint filler yet today,,, i think its primarily because architects think it looks nicer :yes: did you post your location ? perhaps i missed it !

as far as your neighbor's work, most will agree even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now & then !

irc


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## iLikeDirt (Apr 27, 2014)

itsreallyconc said:


> as far as your neighbor's work, most will agree even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now & then !


That's really the truth of the matter, right there. It may well be that your neighbor's DIY job turned out great. But by the sound of it, he did everything wrong, so it was probably due to a confluence of fortunate factors that the result wasn't a total stinker. That shouldn't be an endorsement of knowingly doing it the wrong way. Acknowledging that sometimes the stars align shouldn't make you ready to cut same same corners, because those stars might not align for you in the same way.

IMO you should always try to do the best job you can within the limits of your ability, but that requires having a realistic sense of those limits. I'm a DIY kind of guy, but when the entire septic system on the house I bought needed replacement, I brought in the pros. Sometimes you need to know when to fold!


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

Haven't seen pics of "neighbors" project. Opinions differ as to what a "great" job looks like. I'm following with interest myself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

ktkelly said:


> Opinions on the buggy vs. the track cat?
> 
> 
> .



I own both, and have a "concrete bucket" with a hydraulic gate and would use the power buggy for little to no damage. A tracked skid steer is OK for a trip or two, but anything more than that, and a little turning, will definately damage more turf than the buggy. That said, we still often need to get the skid steer in first to excavate and place all of the gravel, so you may have tracks either way....


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Folks, you'[re not going to believe what happened to me at HD last night. So i've been going there quite often the last couple of weeks and there's this guy in the lumber dept that seems very helpful and friendly. I told him I was going to do a patio and jokingly said I wish I could pay him to come over and help out. He said sure $10 would do it. I ofcouse asked "$10 an hr?" he said no just $10 and a beer. I told him to tell me how much cuz I dont like to take advantage of people and he reiterate $10 is fine or whatever I think his work is worth. 

So how much should I pay him? I really dont want to low ball anyone and make an A$$ out of myself?


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

BTW I think I just need him to pour, help me screed, and whatever else needed to make it looks nice.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

And I'll bet he's worth every penny of $10.00 a day.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Dude seems like he knows his stuff. Said he got all this knowledge from his dad and uncle's construction business. Not sure why he works at HD though?


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

itsreallyconc said:


> its a rare exterior slab that uses moisture barrier as that practice is usually for interior work,,, no one recommends mesh in a 4" slab - certainly not ACI,,, obviously this work can be done 6b at a time,,, just use wood forms & keep moving them as neede
> 
> irc


It is code here to have 6X6X10 and moisture barrier in a exterior slab unless it is fiber.Moisture barrier is still a good idea.Different parts of the country,different codes and weather.
Not everyone lives in Georgia.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

So i surmise a moisture barrier is not needed for me(Houston, TX)


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

most of my experience's been fed & state dot's + commercial/industrial,,, fiber's a waste impo easily surpass'd by a properly install'd jnt pattern,,, sometimes we've been instruct'd to lay 1" of sand to help absorb addl wtr but even that's rare

irc ( who didn't always work in ga :whistling2: )


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

johnv713 said:


> Folks, you'[re not going to believe what happened to me at HD last night. So i've been going there quite often the last couple of weeks and there's this guy in the lumber dept that seems very helpful and friendly. I told him I was going to do a patio and jokingly said I wish I could pay him to come over and help out. He said sure $10 would do it. I ofcouse asked "$10 an hr?" he said no just $10 and a beer. I told him to tell me how much cuz I dont like to take advantage of people and he reiterate $10 is fine or whatever I think his work is worth.
> 
> So how much should I pay him? I really dont want to low ball anyone and make an A$$ out of myself?


I'd meet him half way and offer him $5.00, and see if he can get an employee discount for all the bags of concrete as well. Obviously, for that kind of money, he should be willing to deliver all of those bags to your home as well.........:whistling2:


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

mako1 said:


> It is code here to have 6X6X10 and moisture barrier in a exterior slab unless it is fiber.Moisture barrier is still a good idea.Different parts of the country,different codes and weather.
> Not everyone lives in Georgia.


If by "moisture barrier", you mean a vapor barrier like 6 mil plastic sheathing, I highly doubt you're correct on the code requiring it. It has no value under an exterior slab..........


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Moisture barrier,vapor barrier? Aren't we being a little picky here?What is heated moisture?No value or not.If the building inspector in this area wants to see it,are you going to argue with him and let him shut the job down over $20 of plastic?We have always used it in this area for the 40 years I've been doing it.
6X6x 10 wire has always been code for temperature steel.
Why not try and help instead of getting into a pissing contest?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Being a contractor for 40 years, you certainly can provide a link that shows your jurisdiction requires a vapor barrier under all exterior flatwork, such as the patio mentioned here by the OP???????

I have a aquaintance in the Peoria, Ill area that's a concrete contractor as well, and I can promise you he doesn't pour patios over vapor barrier, and neither does 99.5% of contractors in this country, if I were to take a guess.

I'm not even going to ask what "temperature steel" is.................


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

If you have to ask what temperature steel is then you have not done a lot of concrete.That's a good thing.Just a joke.I feel like I have to specify these days.HaHa
In the case of a 4" pour for a drive or walk temperature steel is the 6X6X10 wire set in the center of the pour to keep it from cracking with the change in temperature.(expansion and contraction).
When pouring elevated slabs on buildings temperature steel is usually a grid of #4 rebar 3/4" off the bottom of the slab to support it from changes in temperature.The top steel around columns and walls are for shear strength and are 3/4" from the top of the slab.Not an engineer but have played with 750 yards of concrete a day when I was younger for weeks at a time.Poured a foundation in Marco Island ,FL that was over 3500 yds in one day.No expert and concrete is not my business .Just know a little.
In central IL we usually put a vapor barrier under any pour.Do you have anything telling me that is wrong or should not be done for a few dollars of plastic?
I don't think I said the barrier is code but the 6x6x10 is.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

This is starting to sound like that story your friend who gets the best of everything for half or less off and comes out smelling like a rose all the time would be telling you. "I got this guy for $10 and some beer and we mixed all these bags he got for half price and I have a totally rad patio now!" Not like I feel led along by this tale. Been quite interesting read.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

mako1 said:


> If you have to ask what temperature steel is then you have not done a lot of concrete.That's a good thing.Just a joke.I feel like I have to specify these days.HaHa
> 
> I've made a good living from pouring concrete for more than 20 years and have never heard the term "temperature steel" in that time. My Dad's been in the trade 51 years, and I've never heard him, or any other professional in any trade for that matter, call it that either.
> 
> ...


Sure you did, twice on this very page actually. Go back and read your own posts.

There's a number of reasons I wouldn't suggest placing a VB under a patio in a cold climate, all of them witnessed through hand's on experience. If by some chance, the patio is not in a climate susceptable to cold weather/freezing, AND there's a chance it may be closed in some day relatively soon, then I MIGHT consider a VB underneath.........


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

clw1963 said:


> This is starting to sound like that story your friend who gets the best of everything for half or less off and comes out smelling like a rose all the time would be telling you. "I got this guy for $10 and some beer and we mixed all these bags he got for half price and I have a totally rad patio now!" Not like I feel led along by this tale. Been quite interesting read.




True story, Bro! Can't even believe my luck when he said he'd do it for a few $ and a couple of beers , cans I'm assuming :laughing: Though I might give him a $100 for his effort if it turns out nice. Not even sure what's the going rate is for this kind of help to be honest with you. 
No mixing is required, I'm getting it delivered. Just needed him to screed and smooth out the cement.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Sounds great, he gets the money and once reality sets in you'll be back posting on 1/2 a dozen web sites asking what to I do with this cracking, sinking mess.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

your new friend & in-house expert knows what he's worth,,, just remember you don't get many 2nd chances w/f'd up conc,,, have better things to do w/my time than continue w/this thread :whistling2: but no one wishes you bad luck !

irc


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

This thread is great. I'm gonna have some popcorn, sit back and enjoy. :laughing:

So I guess the posts holding up the roof are going to sit on this 2" of concrete on top of the soil, correct? 


Bring on the pics when you get going on this, please.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Never said 2" of concrete. Nice try though. Hang tight for the pics, I'm trying to work everyone in on their busy schedule.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

I've spoken to quite a few peeps only 1 out of 6 used plastic and one other person used substrate. Most just compacted the soil with a stamper. I know thats not the right way but just throwing it out there.


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm near Houston. Got any Lone Star?

Better yet, can I bring my own and watch?


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

LoneStar LOL. I hold two college degrees, bud!


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

johnv713 said:


> Never said 2" of concrete. Nice try though. Hang tight for the pics, I'm trying to work everyone in on their busy schedule.


My mistake.

You did however mention digging a couple inches down and mixing cement on that.
What are you using for supports for the roof posts?


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

I was either going to use the lumber from HD with at least 4 EZ Spike

or

Do what my friend did. Stack cinder block, pour cement inside the hole. Then to cover up the cinder blocks i can cement in stones or whatever else to give it that aesthetic looks vs the bare bone.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

What are you going to do when you start pouring and the blocks start blowing out all over the place? I need more popcorn!!


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## ChantryOntario (Apr 22, 2013)

This may be relevant to the substrate part of the argument, and it's a slow lunch at work....

During my research into masonry heaters and the requisite foundations thereof, more than once I read or heard that "The foundation slab is best poured directly over undisturbed earth". I understood that to mean that pouring right onto the soil was the preferred method for laying a 12" slab that would directly support up to 5 tons of brickwork in the center of the slab. 

I can't imagine why this would be better than preparing a 12" base out of granular b and a or stone dust well packed, and it's buggin' the heck out of me why I can't figure it out....

I would really appreciate any clarification on this and I suppose the OP would welcome it also. Is compacted substrate the only way to go? And if so, it is because of strength or drainage or both?


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

undisturbed earth" is exactly as it says.You don't want to dig out 1' of soil,fill it with loose fill and pour concrete over it.You do however need to remove the sod.Fill it in with a coarse sand ,to get it close to your grade and compact it so you have a solid and firm bed for the concrete.
This is over simplified but may answer your question.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

mako1 said:


> What are you going to do when you start pouring and the blocks start blowing out all over the place? I need more popcorn!!



As far as I know it'd take tremendous pressure to weaken the cinder blocks integrity, somewhere near the weight of a small truck. So no worries.


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## iLikeDirt (Apr 27, 2014)

I believe putting sand under slabs is a bad idea, as per http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/polyethylene-under-concrete-slabs

And definitely not if you're putting a poly vapor barrier underneath it. As that article says, you'd basically be pouring a bathtub.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

What is your experience with pouring concrete.I did read the article and agree with some but not all of it.I believe in tried and true methods that have worked in this area for many years.
We sometimes use stone but sand compacts a lot better than stone.Sometimes we use sand on top of stone it all depends on the soil condition which is something the link you referred to did not take into consideration.
The article was stated as being the correct way for every soil condition anywhere.
One size fits all does not get it.
I imagine concrete in NM would be a bit different that IL or NJ or Fl.
Don't you think?


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

johnv713 said:


> LoneStar LOL. I hold two college degrees, bud!


What does that have to do with beer?


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Nothing!! It won't happen again.I promise!


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

r0ckstarr said:


> What does that have to do with beer?



Oh I thought you meant Lonestar as in Foodstamp...LOL My bad.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

So the consensus compacted soil is OK?

Yay...Nay..Cast your vote now.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Compacted sand or stone on undisturbed soil.Check with some concrete companies in you area and see what they typically use .
We still don't know where you are located.This and the type of soil makes a huge difference.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm in Houston, TX where the summer is horrendous and the roads are filled with potholes.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

A sand similar to foundry sand is what we use that compacts well and no plastic. Also used on baseball diamonds and mom can't get the orange stain out of Bubba's uniform.


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

johnv713 said:


> I'm in Houston, TX where the summer is horrendous and the roads are filled with potholes.


The potholes are so big, they have potholes in them.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Maybe I could use some leftover cement to fill them after my slab is pouredL. No sense in wasting good cement


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

You better call in 2 truck loads of cement then.


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## iLikeDirt (Apr 27, 2014)

So uh, how'd it go?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

John got his 15 minutes of fame with this troll post. He's not doing anything and won't be doing anything except tossing back a few cold ones & laughing at our responses. We never did see any pictures, did we? This was a classic case of a simple troll post, 'nuff said.


Sent from my iPhone using diychatroom.com


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## r0ckstarr (Jan 8, 2013)

I have a feeling john is already a member here with a different account. Some of the things he said kinda follow a theme around here.


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## Knucklez (Oct 21, 2007)

damn it! i was so wanting to see a picture of him dumping 200 bags of sackcrete and blasting it with a hose!

ps. i was surprised to hear about Vapour Barrier under slab concerns. i'll have to look in to that some more.


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Hey guys, gals and doubters!

Been super busy doing backsplash in the kitchen and some work in their bathroom for my future in laws. On top of that been helping out a friend with sheet rocks replacement for a house she just recently purchased. 

200 bags of Sakrete isn't too much work if you space them out and work at your own pace. 

Probably going to pour concrete a mid sept if my schedule allows. I will definitely post pics when my project gets underway. Promise...Scout honor!

Been reading up a lot regarding vapor barrier. It's mostly used for indoor slabs such as garage, grain silos, etc. Don't see a need if your slab is outdoor. Just my .02 cents. 

Thanks for reading or doubting


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## johnv713 (Jul 14, 2014)

Update ..more pics to come when I get off from work. Thanks for looking guys. 

Appreciate all the tips you gave me. Very helpful and informative.


http://www.diychatroom.com/f105/pouring-concrete-over-pavers-205578/index5/


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