# Does a Dishwasher need it's own dedicated circuit?



## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit in my kitchen meant for a dishwasher.

Can I run an electrical outlet off that same circuit? I live in Mass if that makes a difference in regards to code?

Ideally i would like to run an AC unit in the summer off that outlet but I can understand if this is not feasible. 

Would it be better to jump off a counter top GFI to create the new outlet?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Casey_Oakland said:


> I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit in my kitchen meant for a dishwasher.
> 
> Can I run an electrical outlet off that same circuit? I live in Mass if that makes a difference in regards to code?
> 
> ...


Counter top outlets are dedicated for the counter tops and you can not tap off of them for anything but the counter top.

It would almost surely overload the dishwasher circuit to have an AC unit and dishwasher on the same circuit. It is not required by code to have a dishwasher on it own circuit, but you must follow the manufactures directions for a legal install. I just installed a Dishwasher and it specifically stated it needed it's own 15A circuit. 

Even a modern AC unit is a fairly heavy load, you really should run a new circuit from your panel to avoid tripping breakers and have a legal install.

Jamie


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks Jamie for your reply!

I figured as much in regards to the AC unit : / 
So i take it as long as I keep the load to standard appliances I should be ok?


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## rgsgww (Jul 5, 2008)

Mine is on with the garbage disposal, actually had no clue! Never have tripped the breaker. But I would just run 12/2 on a 20 amp breaker.


The counter top outlets cannot be tapped off by code.


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

Mine has d/w together with disposer and never been a problem since they rarely have a major draw of electric at the same time!


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

yeah..

Thats what i set up / jumping 12/2 off the originally dedicated 20 amp from the dishwasher for the new outlet.
Just wanted to double check if this is legit.

Running a new dedicated line isn't really an option for me.
If anything i would just scrap the outlet if not safe.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Here is the code section if anyone is really interested....


*210.23 Permissible Loads​*In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating. An individual branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated. A branch circuit
supplying two or more outlets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified
according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as summarized in 210.24
and Table 210.24.​*
(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits​*​​​​A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be
permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of
both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
​
_
Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom
branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall
supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.​_*
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened in Place​*​​​​The rating of any
one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.​
*
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place​*​​​​The total rating of utilization equipment
fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of
the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization​
equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

chris75 said:


> Here is the code section if anyone is really interested....



Chris, Question / clarification; If the Dishwasher Manufacture specifics the unit to have a dedicated 15a or 20a circuit, then you must comply with the manufactures directions regardless of available capacity based on 210.23, correct?

Jamie


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

Can someone translate these codes for me?

Is this legit or not?¿ Or does this all depend on the manufacturers specifics of a particular DW unit?
How would I find this out before hand? I dont own the DW yet..

This will go along way in advicing how this should be setup.

Much Thanks all!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> Chris, Question / clarification; If the Dishwasher Manufacture specifics the unit to have a dedicated 15a or 20a circuit, then you must comply with the manufactures directions regardless of available capacity based on 210.23, correct?
> 
> Jamie


 
Lots of debate with that one, because its probably not actually part of the listing of the equipment...


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Casey_Oakland said:


> Can someone translate these codes for me?
> 
> Is this legit or not?¿ Or does this all depend on the manufacturers specifics of a particular DW unit?
> How would I find this out before hand? I dont own the DW yet..
> ...


Legit, maybe, I think we would all have to say it is going to be a call that your local building / electrical inspector would have to make when you take out a permit.

A good idea, no, as I mentioned at first, it is almost certain to be too heavy of a load if they both run at once. 

Running a new circuit is really the best choice here. If you can't do it yourself, most of the time it's something an experienced individual / electrician could do within a couple hours. 

In most cases, I could manage to get a new circuit to a new outlet just about anywhere in a home in half a day or less, very possibly with no damage to walls.

You may want to call an electrician, it may only be a couple hours of work for someone with the right tools.

Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I really hate a dedicated circuit for something only used once a day
But I guess we have lots of dedicated circuits for similar items
AC's, fridge, tub heater etc

If you had a 20a circuit & the dishwasher used less then 10a (1200w) then you could have another outlet or device. I'd have to see what the DW pulled for power
Also check to see if the DW has a pre-heater
That is usually a good idea


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I really hate a dedicated circuit for something only used once a day
> But I guess we have lots of dedicated circuits for similar items
> AC's, fridge, tub heater etc


Why would you hate dedicated circuits where needed or beneficial? Cost is minimal.

I really hate breakers tripping. Dedicated circuits where appropriate are a wonderful way to eliminate many over current trips.

Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Cost is minimal, panel space is not minimal
With all the dedicated circuits you need a sub on almost every decent sized house these days. 

They need bigger panels
Maybe they already make them?
I saw a huge one - Canadian installation I think
It was awesome!!!


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## flyboy2610 (Feb 20, 2009)

Even if code does specifically require that a dishwasher have it's own circuit, if the manufacturer specifies it, and you don't do it, you've voided the DW warranty.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

flyboy2610 said:


> if the manufacturer specifies it, and you don't do it, you've voided the DW warranty.


I highly question this. :no:


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I highly question this. :no:


Me too, most likely anything you read in a manual is just an opinion of the manufacture. And not actually part of the listing. sort of a CYA....


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

Hey All, thanks for all your great response & feedback on this... I didn't realize there are such differing opinions on the topic. I was just looking for the "proper" way to do this as opposed to... "it's ok, but..."

It looks like Jamie is right in regards to the "manufactures specs". I stumbled upon a Frigidaire DW installation guide (see attached) and it does clearly states..

"The dishwasher operates on a 120 volt, 60 Hz electrical supply.
Provide a separate circuit with a fuse or circuit breaker rated for
at least 15 amps (20 amps if connected with disposer) but not
more than 20 amps."

Again... i do not own the dishwasher yet so I have no idea what brand i will end up with but, I assume most manufacturers would require a similar setup. So this leads me to assume that adding an outlet to this / although doable / would not be recommended as what ever is plugged into that outlet is unknown and "may" overload the circuit depending on it's draw. So.. with that said I may have to do without. I wish i found this forum before i started to run that wire!

OK.. now for a different question..

After reading the manufacturer spec / i noticed that these DW units are hard wired!?

So why did my electrician cap the line with an outlet as opposed to leaving just the cable?

This sucks as i dont think i have enough slack to hard wire this within the area specified by the manufacturer!

Do i have to open up this wall "AGAIN"!

I'm also concerned by the location of the electric on the wall as it does not line up with what is recommended (again see atached). 
Does this need to be addressed as well / not much clearance their (2-3/4"?) / is that right?

This is becoming frustrating FAST!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

All appliances need a disconnect, a cord and plug meets this requirement, so just install a cord on the DW, I always install them in the sink cabinet.


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

So by adding a cord i could just plug a dishwasher into an outlet like any other appliance?

Does it mater it's not located in the "gray area" as the spec sheet shows?

Freaking confused


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Casey_Oakland said:


> You mean dish washer right ; )
> 
> So by adding a cord i could just plug a dishwasher into an outlet like any other appliance?
> 
> ...


If the receptacle is not in the gray area, you'll probably have some issues... :whistling2: This is why I install them in the sink cabinet...


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

crap!

1 step forward... 18 steps back!!

So to sum up / No extra outlet!
and now i have to move the existing DW outlet down!?

My head is going to blow up!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

true, true.

Thanks Chris for the help.
I'll grin and and bear it i guess :wink:

Not happy about it but at least i know it's done proper and will hopefully save extra work later when I begin the install.

Appreciated!


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

The receptacle is typically installed in the adjacent cabinet (under sink) and is split... bottom switched for disposal and top always hot for dishwasher. A cord and plug is connected to the dishwasher (and disposal) and each is plugged into their respective receptacle.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

HouseHelper said:


> The receptacle is typically installed in the adjacent cabinet (under sink) and is split... bottom switched for disposal and top always hot for dishwasher. A cord and plug is connected to the dishwasher (and disposal) and each is plugged into their respective receptacle.


This is exactly what I just did for my partents a heavy duty p&s 20a with tab broken out top switched for disposal. Fed with a mwbc via thhn in smurf, neural pigtailed then to the outlet. I made a cord for the dw with 12 gage sjoow.
Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Casey_Oakland said:


> So by adding a cord i could just plug a dishwasher into an outlet like any other appliance?
> 
> Does it mater it's not located in the "gray area" as the spec sheet shows?


If its not in the gray area the dishwasher will hit it
This could be slightly different for each dishwasher
I think the limit is a 6' cord on the dishwasher

You could still hardwire the DW in with a short piece of wire going into the outlet. I prefer cord & plug - much easier to move & disconnect power if you need to work on something or troubleshoot


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> If its not in the gray area the dishwasher will hit it
> This could be slightly different for each dishwasher
> I think the limit is a 6' cord on the dishwasher
> 
> You could still hardwire the DW in with a short piece of wire going into the outlet. I prefer cord & plug - much easier to move & disconnect power if you need to work on something or troubleshoot


It needs a means of disconnect, if it is hardwired, that is normally a switch. Snips don't count as a means of disconnect.

:laughing:

Jamie


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> It needs a means of disconnect, if it is hardwired, that is normally a switch. Snips don't count as a means of disconnect.
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> Jamie


The branch breaker is the means of disconnect.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> The branch breaker is the means of disconnect.


I see lots of hard wired DW's around here, just nobody installs the required breaker lock... I doubt they know its required.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

chris75 said:


> I see lots of hard wired DW's around here, just nobody installs the required breaker lock... I doubt they know its required.


422.31(b)

Well we know it isn't going to be within sight most of the time.

What do they mean by being able to be locked open? Are they talking about a lock out system (to prevent it from being energized while being serviced) for the dishwasher breaker?

Jamie


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> 422.31(b)
> 
> Well we know it isn't going to be within sight most of the time.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, the NEC does not want anyone to accidently turn it on when someone is working on the equipment.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> I see lots of hard wired DW's around here, just nobody installs the required breaker lock... I doubt they know its required.


I have never ever installed a breaker lock on one. Not for ignorance of its requirement, but for lack of the AHJ requiring it in my areas. And in some way, I could see a breaker lock being a big inconvenience if you ever needed to turn one off in a hurry.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I have never ever installed a breaker lock on one. Not for ignorance of its requirement, but for lack of the AHJ requiring it in my areas.


 
Me niether, kind of why I like the receptacle method, still meet code.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Every residential dishwasher I've connected has been hard-wired, no switch, no cord-and-plug, and no breaker lock. I've yet to have any inspector question it. 

It's possible that all of the local AHJs, or maybe even the state has ammended the code, or maybe it's just the way it's done around here. 

I'd like to know just exactly how many people have ever been shocked while working on a dishwasher that had no disconnecting means, and had turned the breaker off, and someone else turned it back on while it was being worked on. 

Hard and fast actual incidents, not someone who turned the wrong breaker off and didn't test it, or tried to work it hot. 

I'd also like to know how many incidents there are of cords and switches connected to dishwashers that burn up. 

One thing is for certain, any statistics released by the government will be severely slanted to support the regulations!

Rob


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

micromind said:


> Every residential dishwasher I've connected has been hard-wired, no switch, no cord-and-plug, and no breaker lock. I've yet to have any inspector question it.
> 
> It's possible that all of the local AHJs, or maybe even the state has ammended the code, or maybe it's just the way it's done around here.
> 
> ...


You dont need statisics, its code.  I just dont get why people have to question why you need a disconnect for an appliance? It's quite obvious its for safety.

I personally would not work on a piece of equipment that I knew someone could re-energize at any time.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> You dont need statisics, its code.  I just dont get why people have to question why you need a disconnect for an appliance? It's quite obvious its for safety.
> 
> I personally would not work on a piece of equipment that I knew someone could re-energize at any time.


But isn't that the case with anything on any branch circuit? You don't have a disconnect attached to receptacle when you are changing one out.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> But isn't that the case with anything on any branch circuit? You don't have a disconnect attached to receptacle when you are changing one out.


Yeah, and a receptacle is not a motor that is going to cut my head,arm, hand, finger, leg, or foot off of either.


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

So with that said.. back to my original question... i cant make up my mind.. Would it be ok to jump another receptacle from the DW outlet? - As long as i dont plug in a power sucking decapitating machine that will rip peoples arms off / (or A/C unit) will i be ok not to trip the circut / 20a to share here? 

i'm going round in circles...
Please someone make up my mind!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Casey_Oakland said:


> So with that said.. back to my original question... i cant make up my mind.. Would it be ok to jump another receptacle from the DW outlet? - As long as i dont plug in a power sucking decapitating machine that will rip peoples arms off / (or A/C unit) will i be ok not to trip the circut?
> 
> i'm going round in circles...
> Please someone make up my mind!


Most likely yes, but it really depends on what you had in mind.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I would also say yes, depending upon the power requirements of the DW
But, you said you want to run an AC off this?
What size AC? - They use a lot of juice

A 5000 BTU AC uses around 5a - not too bad
8000 around 7.6a - still not bad cools ~180 sq ft


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

well again / i understand a wall unit AC may be to much draw and surely trip the circut as stated before so I am resigned to just having it as extra outlet in the kitchen for anything else / vacum / radio / what ever...

Does anyone know what a modern (energy efficient) DW draw is and what the maximum size appliance that could be shared on a 20a circuit would be? Is even a small / tiny tiny AC out of the question / not a big kitchen..

Thanks again..


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Casey_Oakland said:


> well again / i understand a wall unit AC may be to much draw and surely trip the circut as stated before so I am resigned to just having it as extra outlet in the kitchen for anything else / vacum / radio / what ever...
> 
> Does any one know what a modern (energy efficient) DW draw is and what the maximum size appliance that could be shared on a 20a circuit would be? Is even a small / tiny tiny AC out of the question / not a big kitchen..
> 
> Thanks again..


Just look at the nameplates... both items cannot equal over 20 amps, and the DW cannot be more than 10 amps otherwise you cannot share that circuit. So start with the DW nameplate first to see if you can even share the circuit.


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

looks like average for DW is 10-15 amps according to this..
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080410134956AAjY94K

Not sure how accurate that is but it looks like i should play it safe and not bother with that outlet.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Casey_Oakland said:


> looks like average for DW is 10-15 amps according to this..
> > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080410134956AAjY94K
> 
> Not sure how accurate that is but it looks like i should play it safe eh!?


 
After all this, you could have already had that new circuit pulled.


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## Casey_Oakland (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks Chris.. but i dont think i would atemp that myself.. As you can tell I am a bit green at this. Beside circut box is very hard to get too / just not worth it to me. Good thought though.

Thanks again for all the sound advice by the way!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Energy star dishwashers are supposed to use 41% less power
I looked up one it is rated at 9.1a
So, you can find one that uses under 10a
Many Mfg may still want a dedicated circuit

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=dishwash.search_dishwashers


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