# New concrete driveway - cracked



## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

what did that drive cost ?


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Approximately $8k


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

I don't know what the industry considers acceptable, but I'd be damned if I was paying for a brand new driveway that developed a crack like that within days of being poured -- it's quite an eye sore.

If $8K is a bargain price then I suppose _maybe_ I'd live with it, but if that's the market rate for a concrete driveway then I'd want this addressed -- and I don't think I'd accept this after also being told: maybe it was the forms, maybe the mix, maybe too hot, maybe too much slope -- they've clearly revealed this is likely something done wrong w/ their list of "maybes" and now they hope you just go away because they (really your GC who did the forms I guess?) don't want to eat the cost of their (or their subs) mistakes, they don't care if you spend 15+ years looking at the crack being aggravated.

As for blame game, that's not your problem -- the person/company you are writing a check to needs to make this right, whether it's with money off the bill or new work, then they can decide if they want to try to go after sub contractors or concrete companies.

The complication of course is if you're using the GC for a lot of other work. You don't necessarily want to sour that relationship if they're doing a good job... 

Ask the contrator: "Would you be OK with finding a scratch down the side of your new car when you arrived to take delivery? I mean hey maybe it was bad painting at the factory, or maybe the transporter scratched it during loading, or maybe the porter at the dealership accidentally did it 5 mins ago while bringing it around for the delivery... but would you pay for the car and just say 'yeah these things happen' or would you expect it to be addressed by the dealer?"


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

Crack control joints need to be cut immediately. 3 days later is 3 days too late. 93 degrees is not too hot, although it should have been kept damp and/or sprayed with a curing sealer. The slope has nothing to do with it. Do you have any pictures of the rebar in the forms before the pour? 

If the crack does not get any wider … its not too bad. Except it didn’t have to happen. If you are holding any money, don’t make the final payment. Did he pull a permit? Does he have a contracting license?


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

bubbler said:


> I don't know what the industry considers acceptable, but I'd be damned if I was paying for a brand new driveway that developed a crack like that within days of being poured -- it's quite an eye sore.
> 
> If $8K is a bargain price then I suppose _maybe_ I'd live with it, but if that's the market rate for a concrete driveway then I'd want this addressed -- and I don't think I'd accept this after also being told: maybe it was the forms, maybe the mix, maybe too hot, maybe too much slope -- they've clearly revealed this is likely something done wrong w/ their list of "maybes" and now they hope you just go away because they (really your GC who did the forms I guess?) don't want to eat the cost of their (or their subs) mistakes, they don't care if you spend 15+ years looking at the crack being aggravated.
> 
> ...





Half-fast eddie said:


> Crack control joints need to be cut immediately. 3 days later is 3 days too late. 93 degrees is not too hot, although it should have been kept damp and/or sprayed with a curing sealer. The slope has nothing to do with it. Do you have any pictures of the rebar in the forms before the pour?
> 
> If the crack does not get any wider … its not too bad. Except it didn’t have to happen. If you are holding any money, don’t make the final payment. Did he pull a permit? Does he have a contracting license?


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

I don't believe that he pulled a permit and yes he does have a contracting license. I'm assuming that the rate was not a cut bargain rate for this area (east TN) but probably represent a median price. I like the comparison of buying of a new car, that is exactly the same analogy my fiancé stated... So, will never know exactly what cause it but as far as moving forward it seems like my only options are:

a) negotiate a reduced payment amount given that something was done wrong and as stated, I have to live with it from now on, seeing it everyday and the likelihood of it cracking further (sooner) are much higher I would assume. I know that ultimately this is my negotiation and something I have to be comfortable with but does any one have thoughts on what a "fair" reduction is?

b) Ask him to fix it - this is where I could really use some feedback from people more knowledgeable than I - can it be "fixed" without tearing out the entire driveway and starting over? (sure he won't agree to this). Can a section of driveway be cut and removed and then re-poured? I would worry that they would not be able to re-enforce it with the remaining rebar and you would essentially just have a separate slab between the two remaining parts of the driveway. Would this be an issue in itself with the new section potentially settling differently than the other 2 parts of the driveway introducing yet another issue?

Again , thanks for everyone feedback, I really appreciate it.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

how much less $$$$ would make you happy'ish ?


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## RTFD (Jun 23, 2021)

@GottDIY ,
I sent the photos to to the guy that did my driveway last fall (Licensed Contractor I will add).
His comments were;
1. They didn't compact it correctly.
2. Looks like they didn't use enough/large enough rebar.
3. Make them cut it out (he meant the section where the crack is), re-pour it and put proper control joints in, not saw cuts.
4. Don't pay in full until it's fixed.

My guy has done 3 or 4 new driveways in my neighborhood and probably gotten a dozen referrals from the group. BTW, my city does not require a permit unless it involves the public sidewalk.

Good luck.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Yeah, my first thought seeing that crack extend across the entire width was the base wasn't compacted correctly.


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## A. Danger Powers (Aug 13, 2021)

You've gotten some great advice. I agree there are some issues with the base; a combination of not compacted correctly, not deep enough, or wrong type. If there was an issue with the mix, that's also not your fault.

A lot of the flatwork companies out here go too shallow on the road base, use a cheaper product, or do too large of lifts between compaction. IDK why since a Class 5 or 6 road base out here is like $9 a ton. In heavy clay soil locations, 8-12" of base is recommended to avoid cracking heaving. This would need to be compacted in 2 inch lifts (or less) if using a normal plate compactor and would be a huge part of the project time.

Definitely fight it as you and your fiance have discussed and others have recommended.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

1st thing you need to do is find out exactly what kind of reinforcing was used, if it's sufficient if that likely the cracks will get much worse, if not it will definitely get worse quite rapidly. As you stated all concrete cracks but it's very uncommon for it to crack that soon. Something was obviously done wrong, it could be the impact of the base, it could be that the mix was too "soupy" (that makes it much easier to place), as well as several other causes. You will probably actually never know the real reason.

That being said, a reputable contractor should correct the problem by cutting out the problem area and replacing it.

Cutting control joints is a perfectly acceptable way of creating them, they can also be troweled in when the concrete is poured. I'll be very interested to know what kind of reinforcing if any was installed prior to the pour, how thick the base is and how it was compacted and what the mix specifications were and what the slump was when it was poured. Having this information would be very beneficial in determining if the contractors did something outside of normal procedures for the trades.


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Msradell said:


> 1st thing you need to do is find out exactly what kind of reinforcing was used, if it's sufficient if that likely the cracks will get much worse, if not it will definitely get worse quite rapidly. As you stated all concrete cracks but it's very uncommon for it to crack that soon. Something was obviously done wrong, it could be the impact of the base, it could be that the mix was too "soupy" (that makes it much easier to place), as well as several other causes. You will probably actually never know the real reason.
> 
> That being said, a reputable contractor should correct the problem by cutting out the problem area and replacing it.
> 
> Cutting control joints is a perfectly acceptable way of creating them, they can also be troweled in when the concrete is poured. I'll be very interested to know what kind of reinforcing if any was installed prior to the pour, how thick the base is and how it was compacted and what the mix specifications were and what the slump was when it was poured. Having this information would be very beneficial in determining if the contractors did something outside of normal procedures for the trades.


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Thank you everyone, you provided me with some very useful feedback/guidance. I really hope that he's willing to fix it as that is the best route for me.... and you've basically confirmed that it can be done so that's important. The contractor was complaining that would have to do a lot of jack hammering to get the damaged section out, I'd assumed that they would just do a complete set of saw cuts and then use a bobcat to lift and remove sections (hopefully not damaging the remaining), maybe some jack hammering but hopefully it would be minimal.

If he cuts it out and re-pours the damaged section is there any major item(s) I should be looking for to ensure that they're doing it correctly? I know many have mentioned proper packing, re-enforcement (re-bar), expansion joints, etc..... given that this replaced section will not be re-enforced (i.e. with rebar) with the remaining sections but essentially will be a separate section with I assume an expansion joint on each side, any major red flags that I should be on the lookout for?.... I'm concerned that the new section might settle at some point if everything is not done correctly but perhaps that's not an issue. If a section is re-poured is there more of a potential that water can more easily seep into the new expansion joints and get under the new slab? Is there anything specific on the expansion joints that they need to do to ensure that they are correct? Thanks!


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Also, can someone educate me on control joints vs expansion joints vs saw cuts? I had assumed that a control joint was the same as an expansion joint and those were different than a saw cut. It's not clear to me when one vs the other is more appropriate ..... I'm assuming that the contractor will ensure that expansion/control joints are properly utilized if he will repair the damaged section.


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

Crack control joint only needs to be about 1/3 the depth of the concrete. It provides a weak point and encourages the crack to form there. 
Expansion joint is full depth and usually filled with a strip of wood or other material. In my opinion, expansion joints are not needed … concrete shrinks, not expands. 
A construction joint is where two slabs meet that were poured at different times. Like a very large slab that is poured in sections. There is usually a key in the edge of the slab that keeps the two sides aligned.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

^^ This. The crack control joints basically provide a weak spot where the slab can crack, instead of across like yours did.

Concrete does expand (and shrink)—with temperature. But you're right as far as shrinking as it cures though.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Are you in a cold or hot climate? In NY we are in a cold climate. When I worked as a county inspector our specs for county construction always said that control joints in exterior concrete had to be tooled, saw cut joints were not acceptable. Saw cutting leaves a raw edge where flaking starts with freeze/thaw cycles. I have tooled joints at home. Saw cut joints should be done within 6-12 hours after finishing in hot weather or-you see what happens. In a warm climate or indoors saw cut joints are fine. Ideally they would have put retarder in the concrete for hot weather work, tooled the joints, then sprayed on curing sealer early the next morning. As concrete cures, a matrix forms and pores open. Those pores let it dry faster. Curing sealer closes some of those pores making a slower stronger cure. In spots yours looks like it got a little to dry before broom finishing, too. You could ask for the batch tickets to see what mix was used. Don’t pay, as long as you have the money you have their attention. If it was done properly and next year a slab developed a crack, well, that is how it goes. You can blame the crack on a lack of control joints. It looks to me like a job that was hurried because it was hot outside. One more thing, look at where the saw cut to a T intersection and the cut overruns the cross cut. The next crack might be from that over cut to the earlier crack. It is better to stop cutting a little short than to over cut. I would not accept it.
Control vs. expansion. Look at public sidewalks. Generally there is a control joint every 4 feet or so and an expansion joint every 4 to 6 squares.
Curiosity, why the fire extinguisher?
What I would do. See if the contractor cooperates and replaces it. If not, pay an engineer to inspect it and if it is in your favor, send a registered letter with return receipt to the contractor with the engineer’s report and what you want. If it ends up in court, you have a report from a licensed professional expert witness and that is worth more than you or the contractor could ever say. You get a judgement against him to fix it as the engineer said. Whether you can collect is unknown, but you still have his $8000. If a licensed engineer says it is ok, you have little recourse.


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

Old Thomas said:


> . Saw cut joints should be done within 6-12 hours after finishing in hot weather or-you see what happens.


Bingo. Non-professional concrete finishers and gc’s will try to tell you time is not an issue. It really is. The control joints should be done (however you do it) before they leave the site.


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

.


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Wow, thank you all for all that good information, I'm still trying to digest it all....... you all have pointed out multiple areas (timing, saw cut overruns, etc.) where the contractors did not do their job. 

So after all of that, is what makes sense to "fix" this is to have them cut out a 6-8 foot section where the crack is and pour a new slab or should they cut above the crack and replace to the end of the driveway? If either case half-fast eddie (above) mentioned he didn't think that I needed an expansion joint....and referenced a construction joint (where two slabs meet that were poured at different times that has a key in the edge of the slab), is this what makes sense?

Old Thomas - We live in East TN so not a cold climate but it does drop below freezing several times during the winter... and lol the fire extinguisher just happened to be randomly included in the picture as it was being brought inside.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I would be asking how much cheaper can it be made to make you happy enough to live with it. 
How the contractor works it out with the sub is up to them. This not what you contracted for so what you have is not worth the same as in the contract.


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

They could saw cut straight across the driveway and replace a 6-8 ft section. That would automatically create 2 good construction joints. They should drill dowels into the edge of the existing slab to tie the old to the new.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

jmo. i would look for a large discount and take the money and run. 
chances are :
1. after a while the crack would be forgoten about.
2.even if it was now a perfect slab, eventually it would crack and then you would be where you are now. 
3. who knows what other cans-o-worms fixing that would open up. 

again, jmo, ymmv


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

My fiancé and I just want to extend my appreciation to all of you, to take the time that you do to share your knowledge and expertise is truly amazing. I'll proceed with trying to get him to fix it so that it's right but also realize that the comments by Fix'n it on just negotiating a "discount" certainly has merit. I generally find that someone that doesn't do a good job the first time around in many cases won't necessarily do a better one the second time around but on the plus side you've all armed us with some good knowledge moving forward.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Good Luck with whatever you decide. and please come back and let us know what happens.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

btw. if they offered you a discount, what amount would sway you ?


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

We will let everyone know how it turns out, the contractor is on vacation for another week so we'll have a discussion when he returns.

What discount, now that's a good question. I'm a little torn on this one.....on one side he did give me a new driveway where it is functional and is so much better on than the little crumbling asphalt that it replaced. I'm trying to be realistic, I know there was a lot of cost and labor that went into this so he deserves to be compensated, and he seems like a really decent person and I like him. On the flip side, I am the type of person that just likes things done right, I had a business for many years and that's just the type of person I am, I feel that if you are going to be in business you should know your craft and try to deliver a quality product every time and if you occasionally make a mistake ... then make it right. I'm not sure if it was so much a simple mistake in this case as carelessness and lack of attention to detail or just trying to cut corners. So some people would be glad to get a 10-15% discount on a new driveway.... somehow the amount doesn't really make me feel better about having big crack in the driveway that will get worse but then I must admit I'd feel a little guilty if I demanded a 40% discount because he didn't do it right in the first place.... having said that, that's probably what it would cost me to fix it if I went to someday else that could do a quality job.

I know it's ultimately my decision but now that you ask, I'm curious if you all have thoughts on what's fair to request/demand as a discount if he won't fix it?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

yes, the "catch 22" . you did get a mostly(seemingly) good driveway, but it has a crack in it. most people would let it go and move on. but, on the flip side, if you bought a new car, would you accept it with a big scratch down the side ? even with a discount ? depends on the discount. which brings me to that. if he offers one, i bet its $1000. if he had to replace that section = cost him $3000 ? so he may be haggled to $3000 ? which would be far easier for him. would you be good with $3000 ?


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

I would start out asking him for a $2000 discount that would give you some negotiating room. I wouldn't settle for less than $1000, hopefully he will settle for about $1500 which would be a good price for both of you.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I usually don't come out this brutally honest about other contractor's work, but this guy was a slob.

There's concrete everywhere, including all over the forms, so I have to assume they poured it pretty wet.

The broom marks look extremely deep in some areas.

The "picture framing" on the edge looks sloppy, and it's clear they used too much water on the edging tool in at least a few spots.

The control joints don't look very straight.

No idea who pours concrete for a living would think it should sit for 3 days before getting control joint sawn, especially in hot weather.

The intersection of joints that they slightly overcut should have been "dog-legged" on an approx. 45 degree angle to the outer edge. It will likely crack there as well, in time.

Best of luck in w/e path you take, but I would simply ask both contractors involved: "Would you really want this work to be displayed at your own house?"


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

jomama45 said:


> I usually don't come out this brutally honest about other contractor's work, but this guy was a slob.


And the forms should have been stripped the next day.


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## GottDIY (Aug 20, 2021)

Some additional very good info, the contractor and sub really seem to have missed the mark on this one based on all your feedback. As for the "discount", also thanks for your input.... feedback ranged anywhere from $1,000 to around $3000... I would not go as low as $1,000 given all the information that you have all provided. Clearly there were multiple things done wrong which will cause issues (i.e. cracking , etc.) that naturally would not occur until much further down the road.... and jomama45, I appreciate you being brutally honest as others were also, I think that's what makes this forum so remarkable and useful.


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## FM3 (Aug 12, 2019)

GottDIY said:


> So some people would be glad to get a 10-15% discount on a new driveway.... somehow the amount doesn't really make me feel better about having big crack in the driveway that will get worse but then I must admit I'd feel a little guilty if I demanded a 40% discount because he didn't do it right in the first place....


Feel guilty about 40% off? I have one word for that: "pffffft."

Read your last part again. "...because he didn't do it right in the first place." The whole point of paying large amounts of money to supposed professionals is so it's done right in the first place. This wasn't done right.

Certainly $1000 off would be letting him off easy. 40% off might be letting him off easy. Based on some of the other posts that detail all sorts of things they could have, and have, done wrong, part of me thinks this is a good opportunity to make them eat the entire cost and if they want to remove it all that's just fine because then you can hire someone who actually knows what they are doing and gives a damn. 

Who knows how bad how fast the rest of that concrete will deteriorate if so many potential things were done poorly like some posters have said. If an $8000 concrete driveway installed poorly only lasts half as many years as it should, and then it has to be ripped up and hauled away and waste your time etc, how much should that 50% shorter lifespan driveway cost? 

It's not my driveway, but I may be more ticked off about this than you are. It already has a giant crack, and who knows what other problems it will have sooner rather than later. If I wanted to blatantly half-ass my driveway install, I could have just done it myself.


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## rickwhoo (Nov 4, 2014)

I would make them replace it. They screwed up and you should not have a cracked driveway... You may need to take them to court. You can do it and you will win!


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## komondor (Feb 20, 2021)

Your contract is only with one company fault is not your concern. Do not pay and let them know you are not paying and the reason as well as what you will accept. Just that simple do not make it more complicated than it needs to be. You can point out they did not follow "best practices" / "Industry standards" But unless he can show you something that says a crack that large is acceptable then just stand firm. If they threaten to put a lien on the house tell him that is within his power. Check and see what the law is for your state for property liens then if he does follow the process. Also file a complaint with the contractor licensing board as well as file a claim with the BBB.
See how it goes from there but always be clear what you want to be fixed and what you will accept.


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## turbo4 (Jan 30, 2021)

Once I waited until the next day to cut my sidewalk and it was already cracked in 1 place. So you have to get on it fast for the control joints. Preferably later the same day. The biggest mistake i see over and over is too much water. Every drop of excess water make the finished product weaker and weaker. It then ends up on the surface and causes early spalling and scaling soon after. A fix would be to cut straight across just above the right side and just below the left side of the crack and pour a new pad. Looks like about 5 x 20, or get enough cash back to possible do that down the road if it gets worse fast.


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## GeoM (Mar 12, 2021)

Half-fast eddie said:


> .
> View attachment 662275
> View attachment 662276


They can easily cut that section out, repour and then install some decorative expansion joints across the poured section to make it look like a custom job. Saw cuts the next day are unacceptable.


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## FM3 (Aug 12, 2019)

> The complication of course is if you're using the GC for a lot of other work. You don't necessarily want to sour that relationship if they're doing a good job...


If the GC thinks this driveway is acceptable, then F that GC I wouldn't want him touching anything else.

I re-read this thread and now am ticked off even more at the thought of cowboy contractors half-assing what is supposed to be my beautiful, long-lasting driveway and then all shrugging their shoulders when it's obviously been done wrong. 

OP, I'd get your real estate friend on the phone who recommended these guys and politely ask him, "wtf?" Maybe he'll lean on them. But also, for his benefit, if he's recommending shoddy contractors to other clients, it makes him look bad.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

They wouldn't really need to do that much work—just sawcut and demo the red area and replace, and add some additional sawcuts in blue:


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## udraft (Nov 26, 2019)

What huesmann said. I might even want a full depth expansion joint on the lower cut. I recently had some contractor issues, called the BBB, got immediate action ( I was surprised).


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## Half-fast eddie (Sep 19, 2020)

turbo4 said:


> . Every drop of excess water make the finished product weaker


I’ve told you a million times not to exaggerate. :}

Actually, every extra gallon of water per CY of concrete reduces the strength 100 psi. Doesn’t take long to make the concrete weak. More people should use super-p plasticizer in the mix, it makes the concrete flow easily without reducing the strength.


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## RTFD (Jun 23, 2021)

@GottDIY ,
Remember the first rule of "Bargaining" Start high because you can alway negotiate down. You will almost never be able to negotiate higher than your starting point.
If $3k is where you would like to reasonably end up you better start at $4500 or $4000 and bargain it down to $3000. It becomes a physiological win, of sorts, for the other party.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Half-fast eddie said:


> Actually, every extra gallon of water per CY of concrete reduces the strength 100 psi. Doesn’t take long to make the concrete weak. More people should use super-p plasticizer in the mix, it makes the concrete flow easily without reducing the strength.


Actually, every gallon reduces the strength by 150-200 psi. It also increases potential shrinkage by up to 10%, and most detrimental, is that it hurts the water/cement ratio, which can show up as surface problems down the road.

Mid-range water reducers have taken over duties for "Super P" for decades being they're far more reliable and not nearly as strong.


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## GeoM (Mar 12, 2021)

GeoM said:


> They can easily cut that section out, repour and then install some decorative expansion joints across the poured section to make it look like a custom job. Saw cuts the next day are unacceptable.


I had that done in my back yard. Expansion joint strips across the walkways. Looks very nice.


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## divyakfm (Mar 20, 2010)

I have not read all of these posts with a 'fine tooth comb'; what was in the contract on cracks? What bag mix; 5,6,7 and was fiber added? Were rerod and/or mesh laid down? Did you do some research and check on the site prep? We have a general rule; ALL concrete will crack. That is why there are cuts/groves in it. Many contractors will put a grove across the slab and avoid the cuts: scoring the slab to assist the cracks. Best advice that was given in previous posts; negotiate a discount and move on!


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## Mff Dvr (Jun 22, 2021)

GottDIY said:


> My fiancé and I just had a contractor install a new driveway...have attached some pics.
> 
> Frustrated new driveway owner


I have just a couple of ideas. 
1. Round here, where I live, if the inspector shows up and a permit was NOT pulled; it is the owner who gets in trouble. The contractor will normally do the permit work when needed (or desired) but knowing they will have to make a couple trips to the courthouse and won't be able to cut any corners, maybe have to wait for inspector visits before proceeding to the next phase of the job... contractors will likely charge a bit more for the job. Anyways I thought it might be helpful to know that in some municipalities the ultimate responsibility for the permit falls to the homeowner. Even though the licensed contractor is the one who would actually KNOW that it needed to be done...
2. If you did decide to take the money/discount, I would not take any less of a discount than the $$$ equivalent of area that would have to be cut out to make the repair.
Draw your lines across the drive for the concrete to be removed. Figure out the 'area' (likely square feet in TN) of drive to be redone. divide that area by the total area of the whole driveway. now you have a percentage. apply the percentage to 8K. should equal the minimum discount.
example. (sq ft of drive to be removed = 100 sq ft.) (sq ft of entire driveway =800 sq ft.) 100 / 800 = .125 or move decimal 2 times to right for 12.5%. 
12.5% of $8000 = ? 
.125 X $8000 = $1000
I notice an area could be notched out (lines square with the rest) above the saw cut starting from the right side, but not *necessarily* needing to go all the way through to the left side. Same below the saw cut, an area could be squared out starting from the left side of driveway and not* necessarily* needing to go all the way through to the right side. It could end at the first vertical cut. It might not look perfect but if I was paying to fix it myself, that is probably what I would do...


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## GeoM (Mar 12, 2021)

Mff Dvr said:


> I have just a couple of ideas.
> 1. Round here, where I live, if the inspector shows up and a permit was NOT pulled; it is the owner who gets in trouble. The contractor will normally do the permit work when needed (or desired) but knowing they will have to make a couple trips to the courthouse and won't be able to cut any corners, maybe have to wait for inspector visits before proceeding to the next phase of the job... contractors will likely charge a bit more for the job. Anyways I thought it might be helpful to know that in some municipalities the ultimate responsibility for the permit falls to the homeowner. Even though the licensed contractor is the one who would actually KNOW that it needed to be done...
> 2. If you did decide to take the money/discount, I would not take any less of a discount than the $$$ equivalent of area that would have to be cut out to make the repair.
> Draw your lines across the drive for the concrete to be removed. Figure out the 'area' (likely square feet in TN) of drive to be redone. divide that area by the total area of the whole driveway. now you have a percentage. apply the percentage to 8K. should equal the minimum discount.
> ...


Why not just cut out an entire strip.all the way across, repour and then install expansion joints on the entire length. It will look like a custom job that way. I've seen driveways where homeowners intentionally have full length expansion joint strips going across. Looks pretty sharp.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

motorland said:


> Maybe there was something wrong with the cement itself, I probably wouldn't blame it on the contractor, it's not the contractor's fault that the material was defective.


It's not cement it's concrete. Cement is the binder (glue) not the mix.

Also, this post is older now so not sure why you posted. Does make one wonder how the outcome came out.

As an experienced long time concrete contractor I would have loved to give people my insight on this.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

If 25% of the driveway would have to be removed and replaced to make it right, expect at least 25% off the price. Then the defective section was free. Or ask for more because removing and replacing it could cost more.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Fix'n it said:


> how much less $$$$ would make you happy'ish ?


The cost to repair it would be one for starters...the real issue is what happens to this whole driveway in 1, 2, 3+ yrs ?


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Mff Dvr said:


> I have just a couple of ideas.
> 1. Round here, where I live, if the inspector shows up and a permit was NOT pulled; it is the owner who gets in trouble. The contractor will normally do the permit work when needed (or desired) but knowing they will have to make a couple trips to the courthouse and won't be able to cut any corners, maybe have to wait for inspector visits before proceeding to the next phase of the job... contractors will likely charge a bit more for the job. Anyways I thought it might be helpful to know that in some municipalities the ultimate responsibility for the permit falls to the homeowner. Even though the licensed contractor is the one who would actually KNOW that it needed to be done...
> 2. If you did decide to take the money/discount, I would not take any less of a discount than the $$$ equivalent of area that would have to be cut out to make the repair.
> Draw your lines across the drive for the concrete to be removed. Figure out the 'area' (likely square feet in TN) of drive to be redone. divide that area by the total area of the whole driveway. now you have a percentage. apply the percentage to 8K. should equal the minimum discount.
> ...


Thanks for your post.

Your math is correct, but some of the logic I would suggest needs to be re-evaluated, Just re-pouring the job is surely not the entire consideration. First, you need to cut, jack hammer, torch and remove X cubic feet of concrete. That's pretty intense work to not first consider this phase. Retrofitting anything almost always cost more than starting from new.

Lastly, who knows what else was done wrong for sure? There's no way to buffer money for the future work on negligent work. 

Finally, if this guy walks and refuses to do anything, how much would it cost of have someone remove the entire drively and start over? I would hire an expert PE in this field, have them do some testing, then provide a report on the status of the entire slab. Once I had that info in writing from a forensic concrete PE, now you have your roadmap to back your decision.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

tstex said:


> Thanks for your post.
> 
> Your math is correct, but some of the logic I would suggest needs to be re-evaluated, Just re-pouring the job is surely not the entire consideration. First, you need to cut, jack hammer, torch and remove X cubic feet of concrete. That's pretty intense work to not first consider this phase. Retrofitting anything almost always cost more than starting from new.
> 
> ...


The OP hasn't responded in some time. Time to let this go.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Yup. I’m thinking things went S & rehashing isn’t going to happen..


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