# Garage converted to living space with no insulation and very limited work space!



## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Hi everyone I am brand new as of 60 minutes ago but been browsing this forum for a while.

I can not get a straight answer from any local insulation companies, or even return calls and there is nothing in the local code for this that I could find.

I live in Central Ohio. Hot summers and some very cold winters. The space I am referring to is a 24 x 12 garage that was converted into living space before we purchased the house 9 years ago. We have your "standard" rectangle ranch with a fairly deep crawl space.

I'm 5'6" and can sit up between the joists. The floor joists for the house part run with the trusses.The first winter we froze to death, got into the attic and NO insulation over garage. Immediately put blown in. That helped a lot.

Also removed and re-framed an insulated a southern facing window, that helped. The other day I was sitting here and the register box fell out of the floor, so that got my attention. Upon investigation I found that there is a slab of concrete in your face when you look into the register hole. I began removing the sub floor to see what was really going on. We were planing on new carpet anyway, but this just expedited the decision.

They did use 2' x 8" for the floor joist, these run opposite of the trusses or the other joists. They are 16" on center installed with joist hangers. There is about 5" under the joist before the concrete slab.

Where the house and the garage join there is approximately 6" of exposed block, and on the out side wall there is at least a full block. The slab does not touch the block wall.

That is the first question, does that area need sealed? Does there need to be anything put onto the top of the concrete slab? I will post my HVAC question in that area but I do have 2 pieces of flex ducting coming through the ridge plate, basically smashed through the hole in both places.

Then smashed under the joist in order to reach the register. I am really curious what type of insulation I should use? It is impossible to get under the joist "only having 5" of space" so everything has to be done from the top. I have found R19 that is 6" 3/4" deep so that is a possibility, but R13 is only like 3"1/2" thick.

After I get this insulation situation figured out I will address the HVAC. I want all my plans together before I go into this any deeper. If there is work needed for the insulation I will get it done first, then run the correct HVAC, then install a new sub floor, hardwood and carpet.

This project is going piece by piece. I am a stay at home dad with a 1 year old, luckily he loves noise and power tools. I would say my abilities are average. I prefer finish carpentry than fixing things. Oh and this is just the first of many, many projects I am going to need help on.

I thank everyone in advance for their suggestions and comments. Being new to the group if I have done something incorrectly please let me know. Thanks again everyone!


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Post some photos of the issue. I little confused by the "ridge plate" and ducts coming through it. Maybe rim joist?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1

Try to post up some pictures and break up the description into sections with pictures. It will make reading and responding to the post much easier.


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> +1
> 
> Try to post up some pictures and break up the description into sections with pictures. It will make reading and responding to the post much easier.


My apologies I meant rim joist, I think. I will shoot some pics and figure out how to upload them so you can see what I am talking about. Thanks for the assistance.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Outlawcash75 said:


> My apologies I meant rim joist, I think. I will shoot some pics and figure out how to upload them so you can see what I am talking about. Thanks for the assistance.


Absolutely no need to apologize my friend. It will just help garner more responses and get you better feedback on the project. Looking forward to the pictures and you only need a few more posts before you can upload pictures directly.


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

I posted 3 pictures in my album on my profile. I hope that was the correct way to do it. I do have a few more pictures I can add if I need too. I also wanted to mention this crawl space is dry as a bone. I forgot to mention that in the earlier post. If I could get some help on insulation suggestions or if I then need to put something in the HVAC forum I can. Just stuck right now. Need some direction. Hope the pictures help! Thanks again everyone for the advice.


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## Dragfluid (Dec 30, 2013)

R-21 fiberglass is 5 1/2". It's denser than the 19. Costs more, too. I used it in my walls when I built 18 years ago. You could put more in between the joists, too.
But you should put some poly on the floor first. Since there's so much space under the joists, it shouldn't be too much of a pain.

With the slab insulated, you could get rid of that insulated duct and put a rigid duct in that wouldn't be so restrictive when it goes through the hole in the joist.


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Dragfluid said:


> R-21 fiberglass is 5 1/2". It's denser than the 19. Costs more, too. I used it in my walls when I built 18 years ago. You could put more in between the joists, too.
> But you should put some poly on the floor first. Since there's so much space under the joists, it shouldn't be too much of a pain.
> 
> With the slab insulated, you could get rid of that insulated duct and put a rigid duct in that wouldn't be so restrictive when it goes through the hole in the joist.


Thanks for getting back with me. I doubled check last night and there is about 6" 1/4" between the bottom of the joist and the slab. So are you referring to just an R21 fiberglass faced batt insulation put in from the top. just like you would do a wall, but to the floor? I am not familiar at all with "poly" is that the rigid foam insulation or something different. After an explanation of "poly" could you tell me how to adhere it to the slab. My plan was to run solid duct work. I have a little experience in that. On top of that the wife decided we are going to put in a non load bearing half wall somewhere in the living room which I have successfully done before so I am not worried there. We have a 1 year old now and do not want to freeze again this winter. Money is always a concern but when I do something I try to do it right the first time. I'm really doing this piece by piece so the money is an object of concern but it isn't. Do I need to put any kind of sealer between the slab and the block wall? There is probably a 1/4" gap.Thank you for the wonderful advice. I'm thinking what you guys are writing so that is a good thing.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't see where the home is listed in the thread?

Any chance you can take out a couple of joists and make room for some foam boards to get dropped in? 

Insulating the floor with some foam board would address the vapor permeance and insulation equation in one fell swoop. It would also turn the joist cavity into the conditioned space and make the duct work routing much easier. 

You would need to insulated the floor (at least the perimeter edges) and stem walls.


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## Dragfluid (Dec 30, 2013)

Wash, are you saying he could forgo the poly by using rigid foam?


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> I don't see where the home is listed in the thread?
> 
> Any chance you can take out a couple of joists and make room for some foam boards to get dropped in?
> 
> ...


I'm a little lost here, about not seeing the home listed in the thread? Could you please explain?
The joist can come up easily not a problem there. I could easily install foam. What type? What R Value? How do you install? Adhesive, screws etc? If I insulated the floor I would just use the batt insulation like I mentioned before? I have the duct work covered at this time, just trying to figure the insulation part. If I can get some conclusive answers I should be able to start this weekend. Thanks for all the input, this is a great source.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

i.e. where is the home located.

Insulation depths (R-Values) and types are regionally specific. 

Insulating the floor and stem walls might be a bit more expensive from the start but would likely give that area better performance and you could run rigid duct lines at that point for better flow as they would be inside the conditioned space.


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Well I was stressing last night that I had screwed something up on here by not entering correct information.

We are located in Central Ohio to the west side of Columbus to be more specific.

Usually hotter and humid than Hades in the summer and in the winter we tend to be like the frozen Klondike for about a good 3 weeks. This past summer it rained the whole month of July and we have had a few 90 degree high humidity days in August and September.

The winters very. Last year was frigid cold and the year before that was fairly moderate. I believe we are in Zone 5 when I looked a few weeks ago. If I could get one more iron in the fire............if you know what I mean? I just turned 40 so the mind is the first to go!

Thanks again!!!!!!!!! Just for reference the room I am working on in the dead of winter is in the 60's and the rest of the house is easily in the 70's (almost too warm for winter) The room in question here stays relatively cool in the summer but can get really warm on those 90 degree days whereas the rest of the house is cool as a cucumber. If that helps. I usually over complicate things!!!!! Sorry in advance. The wife says I'm not wired exactly right! LOL


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Your first post said Ohio... someone needs some coffee...lol.

Welcome to the forum!

Usually a "poly" (polyethylene sheeting 6 mill.) is laid on the dirt before the slab pour, required per building code. In a garage pour, the poly is not required as it is not living space. With your garage conversion, poly is now required (on slab surface and up walls)- or faced foam board, if accepted by local AHJ- to meet code minimum. You may also need ventilation or just exhaust, again- check locally; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_4_sec008.htm

Gary


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> Your first post said Ohio... someone needs some coffee...lol.
> 
> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> ...


Thanks for getting back with me. Around here we call it 6 mill Plastic so we are on the same page. Do you just put that down with Construction Adhesive? Then do you use tuck tape for any seams or places that may leak? I am getting ready to go to the Ohio Residential Building Codes to check out for sure what I need. I would love to get this started or at least figure up what supplies I will need. Also figure out how I am going to do this in stages with a 1 year old running around safely. Trust me it's like Fort Knox for his safety. Greatly appreciate the information. I hope Ohio's Code isn't too extreme because the guy before me didn't care but I do it right the first time.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/ohio/
Hit the link there.

Poly is usually laid with overlapping edges as per code and up the concrete wall a little- as per code. Acoustical caulking will hold to to the wall pretty good and tape the seams. Caulk/sealant the slab/wall gap to stop moisture/air movement. *If *you had a moisture problem through the slab, I would say to seal the poly to the slab as in laying wood on concrete; http://buildingscience.com/document...g-the-plank?searchterm=slab%20vapor%20barrier

Let us know what they say...

Gary


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## Outlawcash75 (Sep 16, 2015)

Gary in WA said:


> http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/ohio/
> Hit the link there.
> 
> Poly is usually laid with overlapping edges as per code and up the concrete wall a little- as per code. Acoustical caulking will hold to to the wall pretty good and tape the seams. Caulk/sealant the slab/wall gap to stop moisture/air movement. *If *you had a moisture problem through the slab, I would say to seal the poly to the slab as in laying wood on concrete; http://buildingscience.com/document...g-the-plank?searchterm=slab%20vapor%20barrier
> ...


Well the link is good for Ohio but items in the link are dead. I found a phone number and called. Talked with a very nice person that asked what I needed and I gave her a brief explanation. She told me they have no one on site that could give me any advice, so I asked if there was a website that I could go to and find the information myself. I then asked if I needed a permit to do what I was doing. She said no. Her words "it sounds like you are just putting in new insulation and making the space more efficient." I said yes but was looking for directions on what to do. She asked if I had joined a forum online because that is what most people do. I said so no permit, but what about final inspection. She said don't worry about it. I'm sure you will do better than most contractors. I said ok. Thank you for your information. She did tell me Columbus is growing at a pace so fast that most of the effort is focused on commercial space and they have very few inspectors for residential unless it is an add on space or new build.
So I am going to check out that other link you included and see what it has to say. I think between everyone I have enough info to get going. Believe it or not the temps are on the decline, still in the 70's during the day but getting into the 50's at night. Just one question if I put up the poly do I need to put up the foam board insulation along the block like a previous member mentioned. I want this place warm. I only have 4 -6 inches under the joist because the slab is not level. So a 4 x 8 sheet that is 2' thick will do the whole space if I calculated correctly. If I do the poly I assume the foam board would go on before? Let me know. Thank you so much for the all the valuable information!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

No poly if FB, as WoW said in #9. Any residual moisture could be handled by the HVAC system. On FB under joists, similar to yours-same principle; Fig.7-http://www.airvent.com/index.php/products/intake-vents/continuous-soffit-vents

Warm floors; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-064-bobby-darin-thermal-performance

Gary


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry, wrong link. Here; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces/

Gary


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