# wall hung toilets



## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Go down to your plumbing supply house, ask for a wall hung carrier kit, hopefully it will give you the instructions for the rough-in on it. Let us know how it turns out.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

The problem is Seattle is the nearest place that I can find that carries them in stock and that is 4 hours from my house. I have been reading about how these toilets are starting to gain popularity in newer homes because they can be adjusted in height and they say they are more user friendly to the handicap and elderly. My in-laws had one in their old house and never had a problem. They ended up tearing it out because it was pink. Anyway I was just wondering about them.


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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2007)

warnerww said:


> ...I have been reading about how these toilets are starting to gain popularity in newer homes because they can be adjusted in height and they say they are more user friendly to the handicap and elderly...


*If that's you're only reason for considering it, why not just go with any of the standard floor-outlet ADA-compliant models, that have a seat height of about 17 or 18 inches (as opposed to 15" or 16"). A wall-hung toilet can be set at whatever height you like when you rough-in the waste pipe, but it's not "adjustable" after construction is complete - (unless you tear the walls open again). :wink: *


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Height is not the only reason. I was considering lowering the toilet for my daughter. I also have been reading about how much easier it is to clean a bathroom with wall mount toilets. Also they are required by law in public restrooms for sanitary and handicap reasons so why not have one in the house. Anyway just looking for someone who has actually had experience with them. I will go conventional if I have to but I do like to be different when I can.


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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2007)

Someone makes a "baby bowl" (I think Kohler). It's a child-sized fully functioning toilet that mounts on a standard floor flange. But, if you're determined to do a wall-hung toilet, do what Ron suggested - get the carrier for the rough-in. I'm sure you can order one on-line.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

I do not know if I am determined to do a wall mount. Just been thinking about it. I have not had a chance to talk with someone who has done it. I know plumbers tend to shy away from them and was just wondering why. I have done a few searches online and have run across some old threads that DIY guys have said they are not that bad to install. But I want to look before I leap. I will keep looking someone out their must have installed a few of these. Oh well. thanks for all the input I do appreciate it.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 25, 2006)

warnerww said:


> I asked this question about a month ago and had one response that wall hung toilets should be avoided. They say they are hard to install. I am just having a hard time understanding why. If I fir out a wall and make sure it is dead nuts why would it be that difficult. They are in most every public restroom. Does anybody out there have any experience with wall hung toilets.


I previously lived in a house with two wall hung toilets, and they were a royal pain in the butt. they always leaked after a few months. Dismount them, install a new wax seal, several months later they were leaking again. Maybe the carrier brackets are much better, or they have come up with a better seal for them, but I'm still leary of them. I hear the easy cleaning theory touted for them whenever they are discussed, but lets be real here, how difficult is it to run a mop around the base of a standard toilet?


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

I hear you are not suppose to use wax seals for wall mount toilets. That is just what I read somewhere. Anyway thanks for the input. I do not know why I am thinking about wall hung I just got a bug up my. I have to jackhammer the floor for the tub so I could do it for the toilet I guess I just thought it would be kind of neat to have one.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

There is a special gasket used for wall hung toilets, that uses a special adhesive.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

Hi. I just this minute joined this forum because I am currently installing 2 Duravit Stark 3 wall hung toilet with the Grohe Rapid L carrier. I love the cleanability of the toilet. That is the ONLY reason for my choice. I have been cleaning up after people who sometimes cannot aim well: the elderly and small children. It takes a lot to clean around the base. I sometimes would need to do this 3 times a day. One of the toilets is going in a wet room (ADA) that will be able to be hosed down (will be using the Kerdi drain and waterproofing system). Yup, hosed down. With normal toilets and bad aim, there can leakage through the seat bolt holes which leaves the floor bolt covers messy. I am not a clean freak, but basic sanitation should not take up the time it currently does.

As to installation, we have also searched online for info and have not gathered a lot of information. The folks at VintageTub were kind enough to send me all of the install specs for the Cheviot wall hung (less expensive). The Grohe Rapid L install PDF was available online. (Try homeclick.com). The other is Geberit, but Grohe seemed to have more options on the flush actuator.

The Duravit I chose has a seat that has a thinner edge. It may not be adequate for some. The seat is not shown on the web sites and was a "surprise". For our 3rd (kids) bath we will go with the Cheviot for price and for a more comfortable seat for their little behinds. HOWEVER, the flush activator is set up in the wall, so check the height of the child's reach.

Finally, DO NOT be apologetic about wanting to do something different. In Europe they use these toilets all the time. And lets face it, Germans sure can engineer products well. 

If you decide to go ahead with the tiolet, would you update this thread with your results? Thanks, Kerr


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Kerr thanks for the support. I have been amazed at how many people are against ( or just do not like ) wall hungs. I actually have never even thought of them until about 2 months ago. Thanks for the info also. I am not going to start the project until the fall. The wife has me building a play house for the kid this summer. Then the remodel will start. It gives me plenty of time to think about it. Let me know how the install goes and take some pics if you can . I would love to see how they go in. A schematic is just not the same as seeing the real thing.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

I will update when I have some pics. We are in the process of bracing the 2x6 stud wall. I had read on another forum (?where I do not remember?) a plumber who declared that the toilets would sag due to flex of the 2x6 the frame was installed into. The plumber would only install in brick or cement walls. This was not reasonable to me, but we will use some metal bracing just the same, and perhaps double up the 2x6's. I had seen a great design (again, did not keep track of where I saw it) whereby the toilet was installed in a furniture grade (walnut?) plywood "tower" because the installer had to frame out to fit the carrier. The flush actuator was two (dual flush) buttons that protruded through the plywood. It was a beautiful. I need all tile, for clean-up reasons in the childrens bath and the wet room, and do not need a bump out either in those locations. But I think I will use that design for the master bath.

Does anyone have any thoughts about using plywood instead of gypsum under the tile for additional stability? We are considering this.

Thanks.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Kerr I always used the concrete board under my tile it comes in 3 by 5 sheets and 1/4 or 1/2 thick. I have seen people put tile to plywood on the floors In a few kitchens And it seemed to work. They did 2 layers of 3/4 plywood. I do not like the idea though especially it bathrooms when moisture could be a factor. Check out the concrete board then tape and seem it for added moisture protection

Warner


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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2007)

warnerww said:


> I have been amazed at how many people are against ( or just do not like ) wall hungs...


*I don't think any of us are "against" wall-hungs or "don't like them". I was just trying to figure out exactly what you think you gain by using them. If you like the way they look, that's fine. But you keep talking about how they're "adjustable" and they absolutely are not. You mentioned how you'd like to set it lower for a child...that's fine. But when the child gets older, the only way you're going to "adjust" the height is to tear the wall open again and change the rough plumbing, that's all.*


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## tzzzz216 (Dec 15, 2006)

Ishmael said:


> *I don't think any of us are "against" wall-hungs or "don't like them". I was just trying to figure out exactly what you think you gain by using them. If you like the way they look, that's fine. But you keep talking about how they're "adjustable" and they absolutely are not. You mentioned how you'd like to set it lower for a child...that's fine. But when the child gets older, the only way you're going to "adjust" the height is to tear the wall open again and change the rough plumbing, that's all.*


 Your right Ishmael , The only advantage to the wall hung W.C. is that you can mop under them, Thats why you might see them in some schools or hospitals however a customer of mine has 2 in his house he told me the contractor put them in all of the homes in that track who knows why , If you would really like something for the little guy or girl thats low and you can change it out later , Is a primary water closet their about 10 " off the ground the water you have to rough in for a flushometer, i'm not sure if they come tank type .


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Ishmeal I guess I was not very clear when I said they are adjustable in height. I did not mean to make it sound like you could adjust the toilet after it was installed. What I meant was you could install it to the height you wish. My family is height challenge. Not real short mom is 4 foot nine. I am the giant at 5 foot 10 most in the family run 5 foot 5. Anyway advantages height installation, easy to clean, more sanitary, being different, do not have to ruin my existing tile job. Disadvantage price which I do not care about and installation which I do care about. I am just trying to find out if I want to tackle the job so I am looking for input. Any and all suggestions are welcome. That is why I am here on this forum.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 25, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> There is a special gasket used for wall hung toilets, that uses a special adhesive.


Must be the new technology?? I'm talking about houses built in the late 60's. I went to plumbing supply houses looking for "correct" products, and was always sold some shape/form/brand of wax ring. There were many houses in the neighborhood with these toilets, and any time there was any function with four or five neighbors, there was surely going to be a conversation with profanity about these toilets.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

It's neoprene gasket that is needed to give a positive seal between the bowl and mounting flange.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

We plan to use the Kerdi waterproofing membrane under ALL the tile in the wet room. The manufacturer DOES recomment regular sheetrock (not green) over concrete, and I am assuming plywood substrate. I guess I will need to contact the manufacturer on this one, unless anyone has direct experience? Thanks


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## G Smith (May 4, 2007)

*Wall Hung Toilets*

Just a general comment on this topic. I am an Architect in Calif. and have spec'd, and helped install wall hung toilets. First there is a distinction between types of wall hung toilets that needs to be cleared up. Most of the ones we are familiar with are in commercial situations, require a direct water connection that is of larger pipe size, adequate pressure and are a direct flush. Some of these toilets did use a wax ring for the install. Today, though, several companies, mentioned previously, are supplying a wall hung system that is just a tank in the wall normal flush toilet. American Standard, Kohler, etc have always had a wall hung tanked toilet with an exposed tank, inwall bolting bracket and the toilet back drains through the wall (probably uses a wax seal also). The newer toilets are complete kits, with gasquets, and seals. They do not use a wax ring. They do require a 6" stud wall, but I have widened only the wall behind the toilet and designed this in to the look of the bathroom. The drain line must pass vertically through the wall sill plate before the drain line can change directions. All this takes a little pre-thinking, but they work well, look great and if budget and framing allow are a great solution in a residential situation. Not all situations warrent this solution, and there is something to be said for a standard plumbed toilet: it can always be upgraded and changed to a completely new design without going in to the wall, removing tile, etc. Would I use them for myself? Most definitely.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

G Smith so if I understand correctly the toilet discharge pipe must go down before I turn it left to hook up to my main drain pipe that is coming from upstairs. If this is correct ( and you can understand my poor instructions). What is the minimum drop before I can make the turn. Oh and my main house drain is a 3 inch not a 4 like rear discharge toilets is it a big deal to reduce it down to 3 inches after about 3 feet of 4 inch pipe. Any help would be appreciated.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

This is what my plumbing situation looks like. The main drain is on the left. I wanted to hook up to it. I was actually thinking about putting the toilet to the right or left a couple of feet.


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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2007)

You do not have to go down first before you cut into the vertical waste stack. But you'd be better off tying it into the pipe that has the clean-out tee on it because it's already vented. If you want to tie into the waste stack on the left, you would need to run an individual vent vertically off the waste arm before it enters that stack - otherwise it would be an unvented fixture.

Your waste stub out of the wall should be 3".


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks Ishmeal. That is the one I really wanted to us but I thought that was just used for venting so I was not suppose to use it. I am not sure why the clean out is there. Their is another toilet directly behind that clean out. Still not sure if I am going to do wall mount or destroy my tile. I am a little worried just because I can not find a local person who has done a wall mount and I got a hold of a few people who sell them but they do not know anything about them.


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## G Smith (May 4, 2007)

You should look at the following web page: Also click on the installation link on their web site.

http://www.geberit.co.uk/geberit/inet/uk/wcmsuk.nsf/pages/prod-san-Wall-duo-1

This is the Geberit web site in the UK. This is the typical inwall tank and frame that most wall toilets use. Duravit uses this product and adds their toilet bowl to it. Looking around on the web you can find the installation diagrams and dimensions. the waste drain drops straight down, then almost immediately you can transition to an elbow to swing the drain over to the main drain. The waste line is 3" so you will not need to bell up. Once you turn the drain line you will need to T off with a vent if the trap arm is to long. Check your code restrictions (International Plumbing Code probably). The reason I know some of this is that I had spec'd a Duravit for one of my projects but I also had designed a Glulam beam directly under the wall. We had to push the toilet back into the wall, notch the beam, and use an offset 1/8 bend imediately under the floor before we could use a 90 to swing in line with floor joists. You can use a 90 almost immediately but will will need a short length of 3" pipe to make the connection with the Geberit drain. Think "no hub" connection.

The cleanout is in the wall in the vent system because code usually requires a cleanout with in a specific distance of the fixture and with in a specific distance of an access point. Some of these details I usually need to check, but at the moment they are not directly at hand. For most of my projects, I am not doing the plumbing, the sub contractors are, so I loose touch with the code specifics.


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## G Smith (May 4, 2007)

A follow up. If you click on the installation link then click on the "cont" link you will see how the Geberit 90 deg elbow can rotate. You would need to move you vent piping over to the right, then you could swing the drain and connect directly into the drain stack above the floor, but you would need to frame out the wall so that the metal frame is out from the existing wall framing to align the waste. You would need to vent from the new trap arm that you have just created. You could drop into a sweep T and then provide a cleanout to the right of your installation with the vent connected on this side of the horizontal drain connection. Confusing! The cleanout may not acutally be needed this close to the fixture and there may be one in the system under the floor already.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

thanks G smith you made my day. So you would use the waste drain and not the vent.


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## Ishmael (Apr 24, 2007)

warnerww said:


> thanks G smith you made my day. So you would use the waste drain and not the vent.


When I read your post above, and realized the vent with the cleanout served another toilet on the other side of the wall, I changed my mind...use the waste stack on the left, but make sure you run a vent off the new waste arm.

I'm in Massachusetts, so this is all MA Code (I don't know BOCA): You can run a 3" horizontal waste arm 8 feet away from the fixture to the vent. Your new vent can be tied directly into the 2" vent that comes off the top of the 3" cleanout, but it should be tied in a minumum of 6" above the flood level rim of the highest fixture on the floor (e.g. - if you have a sink whose rim is at 36", the vent must be connected at a minimum of 42" measuring to the centerline of the pipe) - Also, the vent cannot make a 90 degree bend until you reach that height (45 degree offsets are OK). Finally, your new vent can be *1 1/2"* in diameter. (I.D.)


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks to all I think I got it.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

G Smith: Any feedback on the bowls themselves? The seats?

Now I am sorry that we chose the GroheDal Rapid L. The Geberit instructions are much clearer. We are having trouble understanding the supply connection, as it seems to have no secure it to inside the tank; that is, it is just hose connections with the shutoff in the middle. I have an email into [email protected], but who knows when I will get a response from germany! We are also working very slowly with the rough in. We have three of these cisterns. 2 are vertically aligned, one on a perpendicular wall 3 feet away. 
==> from what I understand after reading the posts, we can make a 90degree turn below the cistern? Or do we need to go through the floor plates first? We (the royal "we") assume that since our vents are all within 3 feet we have no trouble there. How's my thinking so far?

Warner: here is a great link to a bumped out look that G Smith may be refering to 
http://www.grassrootsmodern.com/2006/08/04/finished-the-caroma/


G Smith: can you post any pics?

Thanks to all in advance


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks for the info Kerr. Sorry to hear you are having problems. Let us know what you figure out. Hopefully someone here will be able to help you out.


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## G Smith (May 4, 2007)

Kerr,

In the Duravit line the bowl designs seem to vary only a little. Functionally they seem to be the same. Only certain designs are elongated so you may need to check this aspect. Sorry, I don't have any pictures of the last installation that I had spec'd. With in the next few weeks a contractor will be installing a Duravit system in one of my design projects and I will take some installation pictures, but it will be more of a standard installation. 

As pictured in the Geberit web page that I previously posted, it seems that once you connect to the outlet on the toilet then you can elbow at any point, with the only limitation being framing. As with all toilets the "P" trap is the toilet bowl and after that the connection can follow any of the plumbing possibilities. Because the outlet from the toilet is above the floor line it is possible to elbow the drain line above the floor framing.

Looked at the URL on your post, and the only comment I have is that there may be a misleading comment or two. The flush actuator can be separate from the actual tank location (costs extra), but never the less, the access panel to get in to the tank for repairs still needs to be accessible. As in this installation, the access seems to be covered by the plywood. I have been told by some plumbers, that you can reverse the top of the tank and have the access panel facing out the other side of the wall. I haven't seen this happen yet. The remote flushing button does allow you to cover the access panel, but, again, this needs to be removable to get to the innards of the tank and the internal tank valves, and parts.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

Warner: Any new pics?? Are you flushing yet? I did hear from Grohe. They said that they only support the ceramic fixtures and I should contact Germany. (I though I did! Must have been routed to the US.) I will try Duravit USA tomorrow.

G Smith:
1>> Well, I think that SOLVES the big issue, that is, we need to bend 90 degrees *backwards* to go through the balloon framing down to the house drain in the crawl. I thought I had read somewhere (maybe terrylove?) that it had to go through the floor first; my assumption was it was a suction issue.

2>> I had not thought through the cover plate issue. With the GroheDal, the cover plate "surf" is big enough to cover the entire opening to the tank. The shut-off is then accessible. If I stay with the "surf" then I would be ok, correct? The walnut plywood is my most inexpensive solution, next to paint. I want to varnish it to clean up after the small boy, should he sneak into my bathroom.. The ceiling is only (groan) 7'6" there (barrel) so the vertical might make it more appealing. However, we do have access from the other side of the wall... No, I do not want to invite trouble by turning the tank around. Frankly, I do not see how it could even be done.. Oh, thinking while typing, that is what the remote activator would be for... 

3>> Any ideas on how to support the shut off valve? The shutoff valve has 2 threaded connections, 3/8 & 1/2. So far, it looks like this: The tank brass inlet is connected to a 3/8 stainless braided hose, which is connected to the grohedal shut-off valve(3/8 side), which is connected to ?? what? Now, all connections are inside the tank to this point. There are two tank access holes to choose from, behind and top. I pick behind because this allows the shutoff to be worked with a screwdriver held horizontally, or with the fingers. Is the house supply 1/2" pipe suppose to have a threaded connection attached, then attached to the shut-off? 

Sorry about the long post. A lot of agita today. (and it took me to the age of 43 to find out that that is an italian slang expression, and not just good old New Jersey english)


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

*talk about thick!*

Well, looking back on my #3, I have been thick. I checked the Geberit Tessera install instructions, thinking that it would relate to the GroheDal Rapid-L carrier, and they use a drop ear elbow supply.:

Quote:
1. Water supply specification, 1/2” copper - supply pressure 
25 - 90 PSI. 
2. Extend drop ear elbow supply side with 1/2” x 6” copper 
nipple, secure elbow to cross brace (2” x 4” x 193/4”) and 
install in back of the tank reset section. 
3. Remove tank door, install 1/2” NPT shut off valve through 
tank opening. Keep valve in shut off position, du not 
connect fill valve supply hose until the installation is 
completet. [sic] end-Quote

So I guess all of my *current* issues are SOLVED.


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

Kerr I have not decided for sure what I am doing. Still leaning wall mount. But G Smith got me thinking no hub and with that thought in mind I would not need to jackhammer a large hole for my toilet. I need to look and see if I have a couple extra tile to match my existing tile. Then sit back and really think about the pros and cons and actually make a flipping decision. I think my wife is about to shoot me. Can"t blame her 2 weeks ago I was ready to order the wall mount and she has not seen me do it yet. Has anybody out there heard of the Wade brand wall hung brackets. I talked to a guy at Every Faucet and he says they are much easier to install ( made to US standards). They fit the Kohler brand toilets. I was told the Gerberit has a 2 1/2 inch waste line coming out do not know if that could handle my what I hear that I am full of.


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## G Smith (May 4, 2007)

Kerr,

A brief reply. 

1) The toilet is a gravity drain system and only relies on the siphon action of the P trap to pull out all the water in the bowl, they gravity takes over so you can elbow directly out of the drain adaptor that is provided with the system. This is actually done all the time with floor toilets, with a 90 elbow installed directly after the floor flange in tight floor framing situations with a ceiling below and no soffits below.

2) It seems that the cover/flush plates are specific to the manufacture with GroheDal being more square than the Geberit to fit the tank extension. Other manufacture's flush plates may fit but it would need to be verified. There was one installation in "Finehomebuilding" magazine where the person made a custom tile panel to cover the tank opening, then caulked in the tile panel with color matching caulk to the grout color. This represents extreme confidence that nothing needs adjusting in the tank, because a 10 second adjustment becomes a 2 hour access project.

3) Seems like you solved the supply support problem.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

*Thanks!*

Well, just wanted to thank ya'll for your help. This was a big hurdle for me.
Warner: sorry if I hijacked your post a bit.. And your wife may prefer the wall hung if you have little ones as they are easier to clean! Just saying..


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## warnerww (Apr 9, 2007)

No problem Kerr. Happy it is working out for you. I have enjoyed it. Do not forget pics if you get a chance. Would love to see some.


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## Kerr (May 2, 2007)

*2 carriers installed!*

No troubles so far. Pretty straightforward after all. I checked out every google hit and Terrylove.com has many, all encouraging.


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