# LED lights glow dimly instead of turning off



## aaronmichael (Oct 10, 2017)

Hi there! A while back, at the recommendation of an energy efficiency auditor, I replaced the can lights in the ceiling of two rooms with integrated LED recessed lights to seal any gaps where heat could leak through. (These were the lights I installed, from Home Depot.) In one room, they work perfectly. But in the other room, when I switch them off, they don't turn fully off. Instead, they glow dimly. It's barely perceptible when it's bright out, but at night the room never really gets dark.

What could be causing this? Could it be a problem at the switch? (The switch is installed "upside down," such that it's off when the top portion is pressed and on when the bottom portion is pressed -- any way that could be an issue?) Or did I somehow do something weird when installing all four of these lights that I didn't do with the four lights in the other room? Granted, the ceiling is slightly higher in this room, so it was a hard reach for me, and I couldn't see as well what I was doing. 

Or could there be an issue in the wiring somewhere between the switch and the light fixtures?

Thanks very much for any insights. I'd be happy to answer any questions or take photos of anything you think might be useful -- it'd just require some deconstruction.


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

I've heard of this before but not seen it myself. Apparently it can be caused by 
capacitors in the lights drivers discharging very slowly, or, from inductive 
pick-up from other wires run near by. 
Either way one recommended remedy is to add a small incandescent load 
somewhere out of site or somewhere it doesn't look too odd. One thought
would be to add an outlet directly beneath the switch and keep an incandescent
night light plugged in. It should drain the available "juice" and not stay 
lit all night itself. 
Maybe start with an experiment where the switch is pulled out and a low wattage 
bulb is temporarily wired in.


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The orientation of the switch has nothing to do with your issue.
LED lights require so little power to light that they are sensitive to small voltages that our old energy hogs just ignored. Do you have a dimmer involved on these lights or an illuminated switch?

Bud


----------



## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

You need to install a dimmer compatible with your brand of LED bulbs. The LED bulb mfg usually will tell you what brands and model dimmers will work and not produce what you are experiencing.


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

bob22 said:


> You need to install a dimmer compatible with your brand of LED bulbs. The LED bulb mfg usually will tell you what brands and model dimmers will work and not produce what you are experiencing.


Switch installed upside down does not lead me to think dimmer.


----------



## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

CodeMatters said:


> Switch installed upside down does not lead me to think dimmer.


Thanks; missed that part. Could be one of those slide dimmers or toggle dimmers still. I see no way that a normal, SPST switch would allow any current flow to allow them to be on dim or not.


----------



## aaronmichael (Oct 10, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> The orientation of the switch has nothing to do with your issue.
> LED lights require so little power to light that they are sensitive to small voltages that our old energy hogs just ignored. Do you have a dimmer involved on these lights or an illuminated switch?
> 
> Bud


Nope, as others have surmised, there's no dimmer or illumination on the switch. It's just a regular old switch.


----------



## aaronmichael (Oct 10, 2017)

CodeMatters said:


> I've heard of this before but not seen it myself. Apparently it can be caused by
> capacitors in the lights drivers discharging very slowly, or, from inductive
> pick-up from other wires run near by.
> Either way one recommended remedy is to add a small incandescent load
> ...


This is a good theory and makes sense. Do I actually need to install a new outlet? Or would adding a night light to an existing outlet work? (And does it have to be a night light, or are there other things I can plug in that would do the trick?) 

The room is a guest room that typically doesn't have anything plugged into the outlets, so that could maybe explain why the lights glow there but not in the other room, which is occupied and has a bunch of stuff plugged in.


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

aaronmichael said:


> This is a good theory and makes sense. Do I actually need to install a new outlet? Or would adding a night light to an existing outlet work? (And does it have to be a night light, or are there other things I can plug in that would do the trick?)
> 
> The room is a guest room that typically doesn't have anything plugged into the outlets, so that could maybe explain why the lights glow there but not in the other room, which is occupied and has a bunch of stuff plugged in.


It can't be at one of the existing outlets because it has to be on the
switched wire, electrically between the switch and the lights. Physically
it should be wherever is easiest. Again, I'd recommend a temporary
experiment at the switch with the switch pulled out from the box. 
I'd try both a pig tail light and a night light to see if both or either do 
the trick. The temp light load would need to be between the switched 
hot wire and the neutral.


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

In the problem room it sounds like you have more than one light. Try plugging in something in those receptacles when the cans are in their dim mode just to see if they are on the same circuit and happen to be in a place that affects this problem. 

I don't have a link but it has been discussed here and i have searched it, there are load resistors that can be installed inside one of the electrical boxes, I assume where the switch is. You would want to be sure it is an approved modification.

Bud


----------



## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Not sure of the real issue? 
Do the bulbs never get completely dark? If so, there must be a perpetual energy source in the system.
If they get dark after a period of time, why do you need to do anything?
Adding in a resistor seems to reduce the benefit of using low energy consumption LEDs.


----------



## nathandavis (Nov 2, 2017)

I have a very similar problem. I have two identical led fixtures, one on a single pole switch and one on a three-way switch. The led fixture on the single pole switch turns off completely but the one on the three-way switch glows very dimly even when it should be completely off. 

Any ideas about this problem?

BTW-- I live in an old house without a ground wire at receptacles.


----------



## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

nathandavis said:


> the one on the three-way switch glows very dimly even when it should be completely off.
> 
> Any ideas about this problem?


This is due to capacitive coupling between the parallel energized "traveler" and the non-energized "traveler" in the same cable. 
This (supposedly) non-energised "traveler" *is* connected to the LED when the switch combinations are in the "Off" positions.


----------



## nathandavis (Nov 2, 2017)

Is there any way to fix this? The fixture holds 16 led lights, so I much prefer the lower wattage of 16 led lights instead of 16 incandescent bulbs.

I think that the wiring at that point is probably the old knob and tube wiring, so the wires should be at least 12 inches apart in the ceiling.


----------



## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

nathandavis said:


> Is there any way to fix this? The fixture holds 16 led lights, so I much prefer the lower wattage of 16 led lights instead of 16 incandescent bulbs.


Install one incandescent - as a "bleed" - OR
search for and try a North American product equivalent to this Clipsal device. http://www.noushouse.com.au/store/product-info.php?Clipsal-LED-Dimmer-Fix-31LCDA-pid620.html. 

In https://s0.yellowpages.com.au/83a0c...lectrical-services-carwoola-2620-document.pdf the manufacturer calims:-
"Ensures off-state: reduces flicker or dim glow when the load is turned off."

(Clipsal is a Schneider-Electric company.)
_(The 31LCDA is also available on Ebay and is rated at 240 V)
_


nathandavis said:


> I think that the wiring at that point is probably the old knob and tube wiring, so the wires should be at least 12 inches apart in the ceiling.


However, it is probable that the wires are in cables down the walls to the switches.
Also, there *could* be other leakage problems in old wiring!


----------



## aaronmichael (Oct 10, 2017)

bob22 said:


> Not sure of the real issue?
> Do the bulbs never get completely dark? If so, there must be a perpetual energy source in the system.
> If they get dark after a period of time, why do you need to do anything?
> Adding in a resistor seems to reduce the benefit of using low energy consumption LEDs.


No, they never get completely dark. Or at least they stay dimly glowing through the night.


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

nathandavis said:


> I have a very similar problem. I have two identical led fixtures, one on a single pole switch and one on a three-way switch. The led fixture on the single pole switch turns off completely but the one on the three-way switch glows very dimly even when it should be completely off.
> 
> Any ideas about this problem?
> 
> BTW-- I live in an old house without a ground wire at receptacles.


Better, IMO, to start your own thread.


----------



## Shadow99 (Nov 3, 2017)

FrodoOne said:


> Install one incandescent - as a "bleed" - OR
> search for and try a North American product equivalent to this Clipsal device.
> In the manufacturer calims:-
> "Ensures off-state: reduces flicker or dim glow when the load is turned off."
> ...


The capacitive coupling causes problems, also in older homes where the neutral is shared between circuits, you can often have a couple of volts between the neutral and ground. This will make the LEDs glow.

Adding any load, resistor or incandescent light, will fix the problem


----------



## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

Shadow99 said:


> in older homes where the neutral is shared between circuits, you can often have a couple of volts between the neutral and ground. This will make the LEDs glow.


If the Line side of a LED *is* disconnected, how will *any* voltage on the Neutral relative to Ground produce a potential difference across the LED to cause a glow -
unless the Line side of the LED is connected to Ground?


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

FrodoOne said:


> If the Line side of a LED *is* disconnected, how will *any* voltage on the Neutral relative to Ground produce a potential difference across the LED to cause a glow -
> unless the Line side of the LED is connected to Ground?


Capacitive grounding ? :jester:


----------



## Shadow99 (Nov 3, 2017)

FrodoOne said:


> If the Line side of a LED *is* disconnected, how will *any* voltage on the Neutral relative to Ground produce a potential difference across the LED to cause a glow -
> unless the Line side of the LED is connected to Ground?


This situation is when you have 2-3 volts on the neutral, there is current flowing (probably through a bootleg ground).
I'd think that the current flow would induce enough into the hot to make the LED glow.

I've seen it quite a bit lately with older homes when they install the LEDs


----------



## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

To the OP...

First, I am NOT an electrician, so anything I say should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

That said (and in light of a bit of diversion on this thread), I'd suggest starting with what is easiest and cheapest. Change out your switch. There's a reason some single-pole switches are much cheaper than others. 

Also, make sure the lights are grounded properly, and that the switch "breaks" the circuit of the black wire rather than the white wire.

Beyond that, I've got nothing but the phone number of a local electrician. Good luck!


----------



## FrodoOne (Mar 4, 2016)

Shadow99 said:


> This situation is when you have 2-3 volts on the neutral, there is current flowing (probably through a bootleg ground).
> I'd think that the current flow would induce enough into the hot to make the LED glow.
> 
> I've seen it quite a bit lately with older homes when they install the LEDs


From what you wrote I am not sure that you really understand the purpose and activity of the Neutral conductor.

The Neutral conductor should carry exactly the same current as that on the Line conductor, because the Neutral; conductor is the *return path* to the source of the electrical energy which is doing the "work".

If there is any significant difference between the current on the Line conductor and the current on the Neutral conductor, any GFCI on that circuit should trip, because that is its purpose.
(Note that in most English speaking countries that which in North America is termed a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) was originally and still is termed a Residual Current Device (RCD). If it determines that, if there is a current imbalance on these two conductors (which *may* be due to a Ground fault), it operates to disconnect the supply.)

Because of Neutral (and Line) resistance, there is always a voltage drop (small or large) on the Neutral, placing it *above* Ground potential. However, that same current flow will cause a voltage drop on the corresponding Line, resulting in its terminal voltage being just that much *below* the Supply potential.

The conductor into which any voltage* might* be induced, resistively leaked or capacitively coupled (causing a LED to glow when supposedly switched off) is *not* the Line but the Switched Line (neither of which I would refer to as "hot".)


----------



## Shadow99 (Nov 3, 2017)

FrodoOne said:


> From what you wrote I am not sure that you really understand the purpose and activity of the Neutral conductor.
> 
> The Neutral conductor should carry exactly the same current as that on the Line conductor, because the Neutral; conductor is the *return path* to the source of the electrical energy which is doing the "work".
> 
> ...


Oh, I definitely understand the purpose of the neutral conductor.
I also know GFCIs and RCDs.

I didn't know the OP was from the UK, I missed that part. We don't have GFCIs on bedroom circuits up here.


----------



## Shaneyj (Nov 7, 2017)

aaronmichael said:


> Hi there! A while back, at the recommendation of an energy efficiency auditor, I replaced the can lights in the ceiling of two rooms with integrated LED recessed lights to seal any gaps where heat could leak through. (These were the lights I installed, from Home Depot.) In one room, they work perfectly. But in the other room, when I switch them off, they don't turn fully off. Instead, they glow dimly. It's barely perceptible when it's bright out, but at night the room never really gets dark.
> 
> What could be causing this? Could it be a problem at the switch? (The switch is installed "upside down," such that it's off when the top portion is pressed and on when the bottom portion is pressed -- any way that could be an issue?) Or did I somehow do something weird when installing all four of these lights that I didn't do with the four lights in the other room? Granted, the ceiling is slightly higher in this room, so it was a hard reach for me, and I couldn't see as well what I was doing.
> 
> ...


Current leakage happens. 
If you're still having this issue, try searching Lutron minimum load cap. 
This is the alternative to sticking a light bulb in a closet. 


Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## aaronmichael (Oct 10, 2017)

Shadow99 said:


> Oh, I definitely understand the purpose of the neutral conductor.
> I also know GFCIs and RCDs.
> 
> I didn't know the OP was from the UK, I missed that part. We don't have GFCIs on bedroom circuits up here.


Nope, I'm in the US.


----------



## Chango_2012 (Dec 10, 2020)

aaronmichael said:


> Hi there! A while back, at the recommendation of an energy efficiency auditor, I replaced the can lights in the ceiling of two rooms with integrated LED recessed lights to seal any gaps where heat could leak through. (These were the lights I installed, from Home Depot.) In one room, they work perfectly. But in the other room, when I switch them off, they don't turn fully off. Instead, they glow dimly. It's barely perceptible when it's bright out, but at night the room never really gets dark.
> 
> What could be causing this? Could it be a problem at the switch? (The switch is installed "upside down," such that it's off when the top portion is pressed and on when the bottom portion is pressed -- any way that could be an issue?) Or did I somehow do something weird when installing all four of these lights that I didn't do with the four lights in the other room? Granted, the ceiling is slightly higher in this room, so it was a hard reach for me, and I couldn't see as well what I was doing.
> 
> ...


----------

