# $4,000 worth of insulation for a 1870's home?? is it worth it?



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

1 and 2 need an explanation of the difference and style of roof, gable, hip or?
6 and 7 how many?
venting at the peak or?
8, attic floor House ceiling, yes.
Walls do need to be done with much care and air sealing and if not done to the highest standard can cause the problems you mentioned.
Bud will be along with many more questions.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I am always suspicious of “free” government stuff. Make sure there is no requirement to pay back if you sell or if your income goes up. Also you would expose yourself to a change in politics changing the rules. What happens if your contractor screws up the job and a government pencil pusher approves payment? I was a county inspector and the guys who administered those programs didn’t know which end of a screwdriver to use. Government promises don’t always last, the rules can change at any time. I would do it myself for a fraction of the price and not have the state involved.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

LOcation?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Sounds like the "Mass Saves" program, but anyway, are they asking you to choose from that list? You need to have tham generate the list they will do and the price above the $4K if any. 

Bud


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I wanted to add:
Their work will not achieve 100% air sealed. Guidelines vary but typically the target is complete air change every 3 hours. When tighter than that based upon blower door measurements they will install fresh air options. The old phrase "a house needs to breathe" is not exactly correct.

Bud


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

We had a government insulation on a house we had. They did several thousand dollars damage that we never got taken care of. And they used blow-in insulation that packed down in a few years and was worthless.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

This is wrong:



> old houses were not designed to be a sealed envelope like modern houses - ie. they breathe better and if you were to insulate it up to the hilt like they would be doing, if it's not done 100% and 100% sealed, then it could cause rot and mold.


Old houses don't need to "breath", they need drying potential and the air movement needs to be stopped when insulation is applied.

Adding insulation improperly can cause problems because it makes exterior surfaces colder. Condensation forms where indoor air leaks out. Hence needing to stop the air movement.

The tighter the house the better, but when a house is tightened up, bathroom/kitchen exhaust fans must be installed.

Ceiling below flat roof should never be insulated with cellulose/blown in without vapor barrier since the roofing prevents the assembly from drying, it traps whatever moisture gets in, causing condensation and rot. Even with vapor barrier, roof ventilation is essential.

Spray or rigid foam is the best insulation for a flat roof.

Ceilings with ventilated attic can be insulated no problem, provided the ceiling is air-sealed and the attic properly ventilated.

Exterior walls can be insulated with cellulose and no vapor barrier provided the cellulose is densely packed to stop the air movement so air can't leak through the wall, hit the cold surface and have the moisture condense out

When any blown in or batt insulation is put in exterior walls, There exterior side must be able dry so what little moisture gets in can get out, or there's a thermal break like rigid foam on the exterior.

Contractors who don't understand the science don't do things properly, then spread the myth that houses can be too tight/too well insulated and need to "breath".

Remember, a lot of these people may not have in-class education beyond high school and what they know was learned on the job.


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## leafbrown19 (Oct 6, 2020)

Thank you for the detailed replies, it's clear there is much I have to learn. I am going to attach the actual breakdown and qty they recommended for your reference @Nealtw @user_12345a 

Thank you guys!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

leafbrown19 said:


> Thank you for the detailed replies, it's clear there is much I have to learn. I am going to attach the actual breakdown and qty they recommended for your reference @Nealtw @user_12345a
> 
> Thank you guys!


Read the line about knob and tube wiring, what are your thought on that.
I would think if there is fear of asbestos the pressure door test would be a good time to collect particles in the air for testing. For your info and their employees.


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## leafbrown19 (Oct 6, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> Read the line about knob and tube wiring, what are your thought on that.
> I would think if there is fear of asbestos the pressure door test would be a good time to collect particles in the air for testing. For your info and their employees.


I think they are forgoing the pressure door test because of it. I dont know if we actually have asbestos - think they just added both that + the knob and tube point just because of the age of the house


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

If you have asbestos you want to know that before you have a crew in there disturbing it.
Do you have knob and tube, do you know what it is? 
Can you post a picture of the soffet under the eaves of your house?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

The live knob and tube must go before doing insulation - it should all be removed/abandoned anyhow.

The common wall - is that the exterior wall or some kind of knee wall in the attic?

Keep in mind the greatest component of heat loss in a old house is leakage. I wouldn't pay for air sealing without a before and after blower door test - get testing done for asbestos first. There's no accountability without testing.

For insulation, keep in mind that the law of diminishing returns applies. It's more important to insulate uninsulated exterior walls and basements than top off an attic. For the attic, the first R10-R15 does most of the work. (yes, you should still insulate the attic)

If your exterior above grade walls are double brick with no framing, insulating is a very expensive job though -> either the house gets gutted and studded from the inside or you get insulation done from the exterior.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Cellulose insulation will pack down over time and leave cold spots near the top of the walls. I have seen it many times.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

^This is why cellulose in walls must be densely packed!
Loose fill not only settles, it causes condensation when there's no vapor barrier.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

I get it, but you guys on here make it sound like no insulator ever does a good job and everybody does it wrong and homeowners should be suspicious of everyone. Hundreds of thousands of insulation jobs are done yearly and it's not like we have houses collapsing nationwide. Actually, the only houses I have seen have problems are the ones using these new methods that have never really been proven long-term. You have to balance out paying a higher energy bill vs. screwing up your home with one of these methods.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> ^This is why cellulose in walls must be densely packed!
> Loose fill not only settles, it causes condensation when there's no vapor barrier.


And, overwhelmingly likely, that condensation will dry out in the summer months and be gone with no ill effects. The whole black mold farce scared homeowners to death and was a boon to certain industries.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

APA - was just telling the OP to do his homework and question things.

There are many good contractors out there I'm sure.

What newer methods are you referring to? Dense pack is an old method and superior to loose fill when it comes to thermal performance and condensation. 
If you're lucky and there's good drying potential, the condensate will dry in time for sure.
Spray foam is newer and is proven when done right*, but is toxic, so should be reserved for rim joists, flat roofs/cathedral ceilings, etc.
*One issue is water leakage, you can have a leaky roof and not know it until it's too late.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> I get it, but you guys on here make it sound like no insulator ever does a good job and everybody does it wrong and homeowners should be suspicious of everyone. Hundreds of thousands of insulation jobs are done yearly and it's not like we have houses collapsing nationwide. Actually, the only houses I have seen have problems are the ones using these new methods that have never really been proven long-term. You have to balance out paying a higher energy bill vs. screwing up your home with one of these methods.


I think the point is to scare the customer into an education. Most people will not ever stop by a place like this, they will just believe the (expert) in front of them who maybe just a real good sales man. 
I am a firm believer in inspectors, with these kind of contractor the only inspector is the home owner. That will not help if they do not know what is going on.
If you have asbestos or knob and tube wiring, insulating first is a waste of money and could cause more problems.
In this quote attic vents are talked about with out any math or numbers. Air chutes are talked about with out saying a number or all bays? 
They have 2 measurements for attic insulation, does that mean there is a floor up there, how do you air seal the ceiling if there is a floor? 
Weather stripping on the access door only really works if you can lock it down in some way. 
This home owner gets creds for asking but has much to learn so the (expert) at the door can be judged as an honest broker.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I would not worry about your house becoming too airtight. Compared to a modern, well built house, your house will still be considered a sieve. If its free, go for it.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I think the point is to scare the customer into an education. Most people will not ever stop by a place like this, they will just believe the (expert) in front of them who maybe just a real good sales man.
> I am a firm believer in inspectors, with these kind of contractor the only inspector is the home owner. That will not help if they do not know what is going on.
> If you have asbestos or knob and tube wiring, insulating first is a waste of money and could cause more problems.
> In this quote attic vents are talked about with out any math or numbers. Air chutes are talked about with out saying a number or all bays?
> ...


If a homeowner has to learn all of this, he or she should just buy the equipment and go into business.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Unfortunately, the homeowner has to be very educated to select the right contractor and make sure the work is being done properly. This is universally applicable to renovations and even more so for insulation and hvac as the flow of heat, air, moisture gets altered just by changing one aspect of the house, affecting everything else.

Physically doing it takes a totally different skill set and the willingness to get dirty and work in attics, etc.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> Unfortunately, the homeowner has to be very educated to select the right contractor and make sure the work is being done properly. This is universally applicable to renovations and even more so for insulation and hvac as the flow of heat, air, moisture gets altered just by changing one aspect of the house, affecting everything else.
> 
> Physically doing it takes a totally different skill set and the willingness to get dirty and work in attics, etc.


This is why I advise people to rent.


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