# Suction line is icing over



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Is it insulated?


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Yes it is.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Location: Lorton VA


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

DO you have a set of gauges? If yes, give the pros your readings. If not, call an expert for a check up. Overcharge? has any one charged it recently?


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

digitalplumber said:


> DO you have a set of gauges? If yes, give the pros your readings. If not, call an expert for a check up. Overcharge? has any one charged it recently?


I think I might try to borrow some gauges.

I'm a new home owner. Not sure if the previous owner would even know.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

Probably low on charge. If it is, that probably means a leak somewhere. I would have it professionally checked. Be prepared to be told you need a new system.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

What would be the reason to replace the entire system?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Time to get the charge checked. No point of borrowing gauges without the tools or knowledge to repair it - it's illegal without a license anyhow.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Ok - Thanks for your help.

I have a home warranty with AHS and they use ATR heating who have horrendous reviews. I've made a service request and I just wanted to know what I was looking at before I have these jokers waste my time.

Is there anything I should question or look out for when they visit?

Do people carry proof of being certified? I would like to ask for certifications when they arrive due to some reviews left on this company in particular.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> What would be the reason to replace the entire system?


Evaporator coil leak, failing compressor, if its a gas furnace it could be cracked 


If its an older system and lets say they coil has a leak, they will want to replace the coil for say 2k, just a guess. If they say its a slow leak and dont fix it, it will be costly because of the price of R22 and a long term waste of money since the expensive r22 will just continue to leak out.

You may be told that the condenser (outside unit) or furnace has issues. So its a matter of investing a bunch of money in an old system that is only going to get worse.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

The house is 13 years old along with the HVAC system. Yes we have a gas furnace.

Was R22 used 13 years ago or did they stop using it at that stage?


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

Ah you have a home warranty, good luck! They will probably only approve minimal repairs! You may want to get your own second opinion.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> The house is 13 years old along with the HVAC system. Yes we have a gas furnace.
> 
> Was R22 used 13 years ago or did they stop using it at that stage?



Yes in use. It should also be listed on the plate on the unit.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Don't panic or let people on the net get you excited. There are a variety of reasons it can freeze. You may have low freon or just sitting on the borderline airflow wise thru your ducts. Your furnace fan may be slowing down from a weak capacitor etc etc.

First get the home warranty to check it and DO NOT let them sell you a new system. In this biz there are selling techs who get a commission for selling new units rather than repairs. Greasy but true. Then there are honest techs who only sell you a system when you need it.

Report back here with the results.

May need to get a second independant opinion.

In the morning around 8 am check the temp coming out of the vent closest to the furnace and subtract it from the house temp. Use a accurate cooking thermometer. Shoud be between 16-20 deg F difference. If less it may be low on freon if more it may have a airflow problem. Make sure the furnace fan is clean and ALL your vents are open and unobstructed. ie: no furniture on top of them. If you are handy you can uy a electrical multi-tester (Klein) at Home Depot and we can walk you thru testing the furnace motor capacitor or get the tech to do it.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Good luck with the home warranty. Rarely are they able to fix the system. If they put refrigerant in the system make sure and request the pressures, temperatures, superheat and subcooling be listed on the invoice. There is such a thing as too little and too much refrigerant.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

yuri said:


> Don't panic or let people on the net get you excited. There are a variety of reasons it can freeze. You may have low freon or just sitting on the borderline airflow wise thru your ducts. Your furnace fan may be slowing down from a weak capacitor etc etc.
> 
> First get the home warranty to check it and DO NOT let them sell you a new system. In this biz there are selling techs who get a commission for selling new units rather than repairs. Greasy but true. Then there are honest techs who only sell you a system when you need it.
> 
> ...



Thanks - I have a multi-tester.

The filters weren't changed regularly by the previous owner and during the winter the induction motor burnt out. We had had a new motor installed and worked great for 7-8 months. 

I noted low air flow a month ago and also noticed the icing issue as well. I cleaned the outside unit and the evap coil along with the blower motor and squirrel cage. Not a lot of debris and dust but enough to make the cleaning worth while.

I thought that would of been the fix along with opening and checking for obstructed vents. However, with 86F yesterday I tested our A/C and stuck it on 73F instead of the normal 75F we keep it at.

Sure enough when I got home from work the suction line was iced over.

Is it possible that the T-Stat is at fault? How can I trouble shoot that and rule it out?


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> Thanks - I have a multi-tester.
> 
> The filters weren't changed regularly by the previous owner and during the winter the induction motor burnt out. We had had a new motor installed and worked great for 7-8 months.
> 
> ...


Nope not a tstat.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Won't be the thermostat. Unless it goes below 60-65F at night and you set it below 68 in the house so the machine runs with a low load it should not freezeup. 

The motor capacitor has a microfarad rating like 5 mfd 370 VAC. If your meter tests microfarads which look like a u with a left tail then remove it and discharge it with a screwdriver and test it. Wear safety glasses as it has a 1 in 1000 chance it could explosde. Supposed to use a resistor but no tech does that I know of. If it has lost 5% of its strength replace it. Check the supply temp difference in the morning when it is not going full blast.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Thanks again for the info. I'll have a look at it in the morning.

This evening I had a chance to check the air temps from a few supply registers.

Outside T = 79.4F
Inside T = 76F
Supply air = 72.3F

So the delta is no where near 16F-20F. Does this mean there's low freon or could it be a number of things?

I'll do another temp test tomorrow morning at 9am...outside temps earlier than 9am are in the low 60's


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Could be low on refrigerant, could have ice formation on the evaporator resulting in poor heat transfer, or a number of other things. 
Probably low on refrigerant, if I were to take a wild guess.


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

Cash in the home warranty!! Call in a real tech. Get info as listed on post #16 - Check your TD split - temp air coming into filter (return) - temp air coming out (supply) Best of luck!! My wild guess LOW on refrigerant. If you only need to re-charge it once a year- not so bad -but re-charge more than once a year you may chose to do a leak test?? pending age & condition etc etc


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

I have two forced air gas furnaces. One located in the basement supplying the basement and main level. The other is located in the attic supplying the top level.

I haven't had any issues except loose wiring on the Tstat with the furnace in the attic.

I tested the inside and supply air this morning when it was about 63F outside at 7am.

Basement Furnace
---------------------------------
@ 6pm - dT=4F
Outside T = 79.4F
Inside T = 76F
Supply air = 72F

@ 7am - dT=2F
Inside temp 73F
T-stat set to 70F
Supply air 71F


Attic Furnace:
--------------------------------------
@9pm - dT=16F
Inside Temp 77F
Supply Air 61F

@10am - dT=14F
Inside Temp 72F
Supply Air 58F

With the attic furnace only giving a delta of 14-16F is it too low on Freon? Should I get the tech to top up both units even though we are only having performance issues with the basement unit?


I have a HF multimeter and I don't think it measures in microfarads

This is the one I have. I'll just ask the tech to test it when he arrives. It's been 24hrs since service call in 48hrs I'll call a reputable company and than get reinbursed by AHS.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Does not sound like the outdoor unit is running if you are getting supply of 71F. May have a low ambiant control outside that tripped.

Check it when it is 70 F outside. Make a hole in your duct 1 foot downstream from the indoor coil and stick a thermometer in there.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

I updated my post above.

We have two condensers one for each furnace.
Both of which run and suction lines sweet when the indoor unit runs.

Clearly not getting low enough temps for supply air. The register i measured from is 8ft from the furnace.

I'm not going to bother drilling test holes.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

16F is minimum IMO so I would get it checked too.

Not sure what is going on with the other one other than it seems like no cooling at all. Air moving may give that little bit of cooling. May be out of freon and shut down on a low pressure control. Time for a tech. DO NOT keep running it or it may damage the compressor as it needs freon to cool itself. Icing is VERY bad also as it slugs liquid freon to the compressor and damages the valves.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Ok will do.

Found out my compressor is R22 takes 72oz. so 4.5lbs total

Factory test pressure PSIG Low 150 and High 300

I'll update when I finally get a service call.

thanks for your time and advice!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

The 72 oz was just the original factory charge of refrigerant. It may or may not take more, depending on refrigerant line length and size. 
Test pressure doesn't mean much, that's not the pressures it suppose to run at when operating properly.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

What is the average price for Freon per pound?

The technician scheduled for Monday is charging $90 per pound of R22 and AHS only covers $10 of that.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> What is the average price for Freon per pound?
> 
> The technician scheduled for Monday is charging $90 per pound of R22 and AHS only covers $10 of that.


 That's why I said what I said earlier, if you don't fix the leak, you are wasting hundreds of dollars! 

Make sure you see beginning and ending bottle weight on a scale!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> With the attic furnace only giving a delta of 14-16F is it too low on Freon? Should I get the tech to top up both units even though we are only having performance issues with the basement unit?


Where did you check the split? It has to be done in the attic to eliminate duct losses.

Acceptable delta-ts are anywhere from 10 to 25 depending on indoor humidity and fan speed. 

The split has to be measured along with return air wetbulb to rule out high humidity; there are charts out there which indicate what temp the supply should be at various return wet and drybulb temps. Heck, the attic system could be drawing in humid air from the attic space.

Based on the description though, the basement system is most likely very low on charge. The leak needs to be found and fixed - probably in the evaporator coil. 



> That's why I said what I said earlier, if you don't fix the leak, you are wasting hundreds of dollars!


yes, and problems such as a liquid line restriction or a plugged up indoor coil can be misdiagnosed as low charge by techs who rely on pressures alone and don't really understand the refrigeration cycle. superheat and subcooling readings tell you what's really going on - for example, differentiating between low suction pressure due to a refrigerant leak or a very dirty coil.

Don't use a tech who "inflates to 75psi" as if he's filling up a bike tire.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

digitalplumber said:


> That's why I said what I said earlier, if you don't fix the leak, you are wasting hundreds of dollars!
> 
> Make sure you see beginning and ending bottle weight on a scale!




Like a bathroom scale?

Also is it the right thing to not fill up on Freon until a leak is found. No point in it just leaking out again.

Should this be done with a nitrogen pressure test or with a sniffer (whatever they are called)?

Anyone know if all techs charge ~$90/lb? I'm considering going with someone else and not with AHS if it makes sense financially.

I can atleast get better service that way since the contractor AHS has (Some company) Has really bad reviews.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> Where did you check the split? It has to be done in the attic to eliminate duct losses.
> 
> Acceptable delta-ts are anywhere from 10 to 25 depending on indoor humidity and fan speed.
> 
> ...


I did the T checks at supply registers within 8ft from the unit. Just for a rough understanding.

I'll make sure the tech checks all these things and just doesn't fill it up and walk away.

So I'll go through this forum and make a list including checking for the leaks at both the A coil and at the compressor, checking the pressures and checking the fan motor capacitor and the superheat and subcooling.

Thanks for your time and advice. Definitely appreciated it! Will report back.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> Like a bathroom scale?
> 
> Also is it the right thing to not fill up on Freon until a leak is found. No point in it just leaking out again.
> 
> ...


 1.) He should have a proper scale, how else pound wise could he tell you how much he put in? 

2.) Well at 100 dollars a pound and if he puts 3-5 pounds plus his labor, can you afford that? Since its only going to leak out?

3.) He should have the correct detector to find the leak

4.) R22 is at a premium now since it is being phased out. Call around and ask. Most important thing though, is to watch and see scale weight.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

I called Michael and Sons and they didn't want to give me a price. I'll try calling some others.

It's not a case of if I can afford it. It's more so if it's worth my while. It won't be worth my while if it's going to leak out, obviously.

R22 is selling for $11-18/lb depending on if you're buying 10lbs or 30lbs of it.

I read some reviews on Amazon about people just doing it themselves even though its illegal without a licence.

I'm really trying to toss up what to do in regards to the tech coming on Monday.

1) Have the tech come check everything and get my own freon later.
2) Have the tech come after I fill it with freon to check any other issues (might have a family friend who's licensed to do it for me??)
3) Buy my own freon bottle and have the tech fill it up for me...
4) Get my own reputable tech/hvac company to come out since Some heating company have 1 star ratings with bad reviews on Yelp.com

Any advice on how you would do it would be appreciated!


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> I called Michael and Sons and they didn't want to give me a price. I'll try calling some others.
> 
> It's not a case of if I can afford it. It's more so if it's worth my while. It won't be worth my while if it's going to leak out, obviously.
> 
> ...


That's why I said earlier, get ready for a new system. Sounds like you have a leak. Some techs will tell you its slow and you can get by, while others will take the time to find it and determine what the fix is.

I can almost guarantee you that with the homesheild warranty, you are still going to go out of pocket!.

If you don't already like them, then let them come out, diagnose and just say no. Does it cost you to have them out? Then you know what they say and you can still call someone else. for a second opinion.

IMO you are postponing the inevitable!


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

See post #22 - If you only need 1 pound or so a year so be it VS ???.?? repair on an old wore out system. Analogy - your high mileage, rough condition, car leaked oil - one quart per week VS $1300.00 repair - what would you do?? If car was newer, low miles- been taken care of- maybe different story?? Many other types of replacement refrigerant available!! @ less cost than R22


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Removed the company name, please don't post it again, thank you.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

No offense to any tech here who does it, but legal or not, only a sleazy douche-bag of a technician would top off a leaking system. In canada and most of the developed world, it's illegal; the us has weak regulations.

The only one who benefits is the tech who has to be called at least once a year to do a top up for $200+++. repeat business.

It's expensive for the equipment owner (both in the cost of frequent top-ups and extra electricity running a unit that's a little low on gas 90%+ of the time), bad for the equipment, horrible for the atmosphere. If you have a leak, get the damn leak fixed. If you need a new coil and the system is 10 seer, r22, and 15+ years old, best to just change the whole system.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Great feedback thank you everyone.

I agree with each post. Which is a good sign since it's all logical 

So the game plan is. 

1)Use the home warranty guys it cost $75 to have them out, the only benefit is that they are free to come out until the problem is fixed. And any equipment replacement will hopefully be covered.
2) Test the compressor to see if it's working, otherwise free replacement.
3) If the compressor is working. Pay $90/lb for a couple lbs of freon with dye to find the leak. Have the leak repaired.
4) Once the leaks repaired a family friend can top off the R22 he has a 30lb bottle that he doesn't use now he's changed to 410a (i believe).


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

5) save some funds for a new system as that is a Builders grade unit. Compressor may be damaged from icing plus it does not have a great life expectancy.

6) Get rid of the home warranty co when policy renews as apparently they are mostly useless.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> Great feedback thank you everyone.
> 
> I agree with each post. Which is a good sign since it's all logical
> 
> ...



1.) Good luck with this thought, I cant see them coming out repeatedly on this .

2.) I guarantee you at this point, the tech and warranty will tell you they will pay x towards a new system and leave you with some outrageous balance.

3.) Did they tell you they would put dye in the system? and check it? WIll the warranty company pay for this?

4.) if they repair a leak, they will want to completely charge the system to insure operation. By the time you get thru all of this, it will be a sizable chunk of wasted change in my opinion.

By the way, I am just a consumer like you. A system that old and with the cost of r22, I would be moving on. They (warranty company) are going to do as little as possible, IMO.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Can one of the MODS clean up this thread and delete posts from #43 to #66

No one with a similar problem as me will want to read 2 pages of debate in the future.



user_12345a said:


> Don't use a tech who "inflates to 75psi" as if he's filling up a bike tire.


What do you mean by this exactly?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Nobody does that. There are real techs here and some wannabees and DIYers who like to be colorful and dole out nonsense based on what they glean from various other forums etc. Tend to hijack threads with offbeat commentaries and opinions.

Sorry that happened to you.

A few techs add freon until the suction line gets cold and that works but is not accurate. 20 yrs ago that worked but the new units it does not.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

yuri said:


> A few techs add freon until the suction line gets cold and that works but is not accurate. 20 yrs ago that worked but the new units it does not.


So how should it be done?

Am I correct in thinking they would determine how many ounces the system needs and then fill to that amount?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Pros use a chart and temp probes on the suction and liquid line and depending on what type of refrig metering device you have choose the superheat or subcool charging method. The chart is usually on the back of the elec box cover or we can use a generic one. At 13 yrs old you have a 10 SEER unit so a generic chart is OK. Probably have a fixed orifice metering device not thermostatic expansion valve. If it is completely empty we can use a scale and weigh in the correct lbs and ounces and fine tune with the chart. Also has to do with the temp drop across the AC coil.

Some people can do a very good job just with the temp drop across the coil ( myself included ) but the home warranty guys probably add freon until the temp drop is OK and leave. There are other variables like fan speed and duct size and load and humidity that affect the charge. Pros with lots of experience can compensate. There is no 100% definitive method of charging a system.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> So how should it be done?
> 
> Am I correct in thinking they would determine how many ounces the system needs and then fill to that amount?


By superheat or sub cool method. A tech must use his gauges and take numerous temp measurements. Compare these to a chart and arrive at the correct superheat or sub cool for that unit.

Google it and you will learn more. Most techs wont take the time to do this correctly. 

Only from a complete vacuum can you determine how much is in the system. Then according to the manufacture, based on the line set length, 
you must add additional Freon. But this is not perfect so the super heat or super cool must be done.

Super heat is for no TXV system and Sub Cool is for TXV system as I recall.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Sub cool for TXV systems.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

yuri said:


> You know what they say about opinions and azzholes. Everyone has one.:smile::biggrin2:


And they usually stink


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Mine looks like this...minus the rust. I don't think I have the TXV. I'll be surprised if the tech checks to confirm though.

Would this be a good generic chart?

http://web.fscj.edu/Mark.Bowman/handouts/Proper System Charging.pdf

Also off topic...is it bad to have about 0.5-inch of water in the plastic condensate tray? I noticed that with mine. It seems like the condensate line is about 0.5inch from the bottom of the tray hence the standing water....


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not sure if it is a 10 SEER but it looks OK if it is. There are other variables like humidity and the tech needs a psychrometer and how to use it with the chart. Not likely the home warranty dudes have them or know how. No way you can tell them what to do or whip out a chart.

You have a fixed orifice not TX valve. 

Standing water is normal and eventually it evaporates.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Nobody does that. There are real techs here and some wannabees and DIYers who like to be colorful and dole out nonsense based on what they glean from various other forums etc. Tend to hijack threads with offbeat commentaries and opinions.
> 
> Sorry that happened to you.
> 
> A few techs add freon until the suction line gets cold and that works but is not accurate. 20 yrs ago that worked but the new units it does not.


Technician or not, I know refrigeration theory very well. I don't get my info off other forums and re-post.

Inflate to 70-80 psi and make sure the pipe is bear can cold is BAD and totally unacceptable.

The charging method, btw was as bad 20 year ago as it is today. Fixed orifice systems are critical charge, u and I know that, all the studies done on the matter show that. Maybe the equipment was built better back then and could take more abuse from getting liquid back to the compressor.

Only someone who doesn't understand the theory or is really really lazy would charge like that - it takes what, like 1 extra minute to actually measure suction line temps and do simple arithmatic? 

The sad reality (and i know this first hand, not from forums) is that things are often not done correctly in residential (whether it's charging, setting fan speeds properly, correct sizing) and *I think educating equipment owners on how to make sure that the work is done right is a good idea. There's so much crap out there.* 

I wasn't trying to get into an argument.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not sure what you do for a living or who you work for. You seem rather smart and clever with theory. If you plan to be a tech it will serve you well.

However there is a WHOLE different world out there once you get in the field with a service van charging $100/hr with customers staring at you and the company rushing you. NOTHING gets done like the Maytag man with quality control and perfect load calcs and duct sizing yadayadayada. That is a dream world if you want to live in it and telling people they can have it is not doing a lot of good. There are a few small companies with loyal long term clients who do the calcs etc but they charge more and people use them because they know and trust them and don't care about price. Probably about 10% of the companies fall in there. The rest of the world uses what is available and I try give the OPs real world advice and how to deal with them.

I am a Journeyman refrig technician. Resi systems are not critically charged unless they are heat pumps. There are 6-8 variables which can affect the charge. Even the charging charts Lennox etc use if you read the fine print allow for a 5% variance due to matching coils/airflow etc etc so there is no 100% defiinitive way to charge. With refrigerators there is. With heat pumps it is supposed to be weighed in.

In the real world with resi if you get a tech who knows how to use the gauges properly and has the charts and tools great. After that you get whatever else is available and that includes Apprentices etc and that is just the real world.

Making comments about how stupid the Americans are to put units in attics is not wise or doing your reputation any good if you want to be taken seriously here. If not you can hang out with belligerant Bob who seems to fght with people in every forum from flooring to HVAC to hatred of anything American.

Me and Beenthere and Ben etc have been here a LONG time and seen a lot of people leave because they could not fit in. If you play nice w/o a attitude you can learn a lot here.

It is beer can cold and once you have the experience I have you can get the charge very close. I can give you a riddle on how to charge w/o the charts using the discharge pressure and evap delta T. Has to do with subcooling. Tell me what happens to the pressures when you overcharge. Anyway it is possible if you understand what happens at that critical point. BT will know.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> However there is a WHOLE different world out there once you get in the field with a service van charging $100/hr with customers staring at you and the company rushing you. NOTHING gets done like the Maytag man with quality control and perfect load calcs and duct sizing yadayadayada. That is a dream world if you want to live in it and telling people they can have it is not doing a lot of good. There are a few companies with small loyal long term clients who do the calcs etc but they charge more and people use them because they know and trust them. Probably about 10% of the companies fall in there. The rest of the world uses what is available and I try give the OPs real world advice and how to deal with them.


Yup - best thing to do is avoid the 90% of companies out there like the plague. They suck. *Better to pay more upfront but save in energy and repair costs down the road.*

There's a race to the bottom going on out there in every industry, and it's destroying our economy and society. It's a viscous cycle.

In the case of this industry:

The manufacturers build stuff as cheaply as possible, often in 3rd world countries to maximize their profit for shareholders.

The distributors push the manufacturers to lower their pricing - that doesn't help matters.

The contractors push the distributors to lower their pricing for the same reason and charge a $100 per hour *so homeowners rush techs so the work doesn't get done correctly.*

Equipment owners are their own worst enemies and don't care as long as it blows hot or cold air.

It's ignorance and greed at work on every level. In the end the equipment owner gets very little value for the money (think high energy bills, discomfort from oversizing and crappy ductwork) and the environment gets destroyed, but everyone does there best to max their own profit and get a "good deal".


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Update:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tech checked pressure at condenser unit:

-Outside Temp: 70F
-PRESSURElow: 25PSI
-PRESSUREhigh:150PSI

The tech removed the pressure gauge without putting the freon in the lines back into the system and just let it blow out into the air. (is that illegal?)

-Visual inspection on condenser coil. No sign of leaks. 
-Bubble test with big blue on high and low pressure valves. No sign of leaks.
-Compressor running well. Visual.

Evaporator:

-Coil inspected no sign of leaks (visual test)
-Blower Motor 5.4amps
-Blower capacitor 11.63 of 10 Microfarads
-Everything looked good.

Tech offered to do a Nitrogen test. Since they don't do dye tests (his company is cheap and the warranty wouldn't cover it). 

-I asked if the Freon would be captured when evacuated for the Nitrogen test. 
He said no. 
I said so you just let it off into the environment?
He said no I put it in water. (I don't even know what he said exactly but it didn't make any sense).

He said he couldn't do the nitrogen test and find/fix the leak if I wasn't going to pay $425 for 5lb of freon to recharge the system.

So waste of time all in all.

Is it better to test for leaks with nitrogen or dye?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Probably missing 1/2 of its charge. No rule of thumb here but it should be running at least 35-40 psi and 175-200 discharge with a average load at 70F. 

If it has never been recharged there is a very good chance there is a very small leak at the service valve caps. Unless he uses a electronic leak detector there slowly and carefully it may not show up. A 1-2 oz a year leak over 13 years loses enough eventually to start to freeze. Very hard to find leaks that small. NO you don't blow it into water. With Ammonia you do.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

So when he blew the freon in his gauge out into the environment was that legal?

I'll need to call the previous home owner if it was charged in the past.

What would you do for a leak test?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

My comments below.

-Outside Temp: 70F
-PRESSURElow: 25PSI
-PRESSUREhigh:150PSI

*Not that I have the experience to know what compression ratio is normal when the charge is off, but...

The low side pressure is very low.

The high side pressure is a bit low if the unit is a 10 seer (13+ seer will run a higher high side pressure and a lower low side pressure), but not low enough to justify a 25 psi suction.

This system may have more than just a leak, such as a liquid line restriction or the wrong piston in the indoor coil.

Superheat and subcooling readings would tell you for sure. They tell you exactly what's happening in the system. A question of measuring the refrigerant line temperatures and comparing them to saturation temperatures at given pressures.

In other words:

The boiling point of the refrigerant is proportional to to the pressure.

They use a chart (or it's printed on the gauges) to determine the boiling point of the refrigerant in the low and high side.

Subtract boiling point from measured low side temperature, subtract high side pressure from high side boiling point.

The numbers u get are very, very useful. 


* 
The tech removed the pressure gauge without putting the freon in the lines back into the system and just let it blow out into the air. (is that illegal?)

_*Some release when servicing is unavoidable. Not illegal.*_

-Visual inspection on condenser coil. No sign of leaks. 

*Visual inspection would be for oil spots. Not a bad idea*. *should be followed up with a more accurate method.*

-Bubble test with big blue on high and low pressure valves. No sign of leaks.
-Compressor running well. Visual.

Evaporator:

-Coil inspected no sign of leaks (visual test)

*You need someone who will check it with an electronic leak detector with the refrigerant in the system. You can't visually check an evap coil - has several layers, in a dark spot, leaks could be where there are fins. *

-Blower Motor 5.4amps
-Blower capacitor 11.63 of 10 Microfarads
-Everything looked good.

Tech offered to do a Nitrogen test. Since they don't do dye tests (his company is cheap and the warranty wouldn't cover it).

*That's not necessary. It's expensive, time consuming, and you lose the charge. You only get a nitrogen leak test done if it's really, really low on gas, empty and/or all other leak check methods fail.*

-I asked if the Freon would be captured when evacuated for the Nitrogen test. 
He said no. 

*It's totally illegal.*

I said so you just let it off into the environment?
He said no I put it in water. (I don't even know what he said exactly but it didn't make any sense).

*You're clearly dealing with a horrible, horrible*_* technician. Run! This is exactly the crap I was talking about. They can vent the refrigerant*_ *through water*_* so that the oil from the unit doesn't splatter over the side of your house or landscaping.*_

He said he couldn't do the nitrogen test and find/fix the leak if I wasn't going to pay $425 for 5lb of freon to recharge the system.

*What the heck?!

5lb for a system that is probably marginally low? $425 to gas up a leaking system?
* 
So waste of time all in all.

---------------------
*Post the model number of the outdoor unit. some of the manufacturers are really good at publishing performance data charts - includes operating pressures at various outdoor/indoor temps.*


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Inside:
Goodman - GMT072-3 - 0206625037

Outside:
Goodman - CKL24-14 - 0206548196

So at 25PSI the system isn't really really low? The tech thinks it had maybe 0.5lb of R22 in it and needed 5lb since after the nitrogen test it would have 0lb.

So you think leak detection can be done with just an electronic detector?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

25 psi is pretty damn low. below around 58 psi the coil is below freezing.

150 psi *may not* be that low, there could be something else going on too. I'll try to find some performance data for this unit.

actual operating pressures depend on the machine design and indoor/outdoor temps.

gmt is a furnace model, coil data not available unless u have the invoice or a cased coil.

====================
Could not locate any chart. Just saw it's a noisy, 10 seer cheap unit. Not worth spending much money on.

If it turns out that the indoor coil is leaking and they offer cover coil replacement, might as well take them up on the offer - u don't have much to lose.

If this unit on the other hand will cost you much more than $700 out of pocket to fix, you should bite the bullet and put it towards a new system with a 10 year manufacturer's warranty. 

Not sure how these warranty companies operate. Is there a deductible?
---------------------
I've attached a chart for a 10 seer, r22 lennox just to give you an idea. Actual pressures will vary. pulled from some install instructions.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> Making comments about how stupid the Americans are to put units in attics is not wise or doing your reputation any good if you want to be taken seriously here. If not you can hang out with belligerant Bob who seems to fght with people in every forum from flooring to HVAC to hatred of anything American.
> 
> Me and Beenthere and Ben etc have been here a LONG time and seen a lot of people leave because they could not fit in. If you play nice w/o a attitude you can learn a lot here.


Obviously you have not been here long enough to recognize the OP has asked for this little pissing contest to stop by showing his distaste in post #67


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

jr64 said:


> -I asked if the Freon would be captured when evacuated for the Nitrogen test.
> He said no.
> I said so you just let it off into the environment?
> He said no I put it in water. (I don't even know what he said exactly but it didn't make any sense).


LOL!
Just for the heck of it, ask him what he's talking about... I would LOVE to hear it.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> 25 psi is pretty damn low. below around 58 psi the coil is below freezing.
> 
> 150 psi *may not* be that low, there could be something else going on too. I'll try to find some performance data for this unit.
> 
> ...


Only problem is. For the tech covered by the warranty to do a leak test I need to agree to $425 on freon. It's worth it if the leak is in the coil between the fins since they will replace the coil for free. Otherwise they will fix the leak (braze it?) and fill up my empty system with 5lbs of freon.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

...is there any option to cash out? sounds like he's just trying to rip you off. presumably the warranty company decides who to send. 

there's probably enough gas in there to do a leak check - you would basically be throwing good money after bad. Your $425 would just be wasted. your 2 ton machine most likely doesn't hold more than 3-4 lbs total unless u have really long refrigerant lines. It may only be 1-2lbs off.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> ...could be a ploy to get out of changing the coil. any option to cash out?
> 
> you would be better off taking the $425 and finding your own contractor. presumably the warranty company decides who to send.


I haven't heard anything about cash out options.

All I heard was the warranty company will pay for replacement parts if it can't be repaired. So essentially if the leak can be soldered they'll fix it and fill up on freon and be on their way. 60 day warranty.

It's cooling down now this time of year so the system wouldn't be tested in high temps.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Bob Sanders said:


> Obviously you have not been here long enough to recognize the OP has asked for this little pissing contest to stop by showing his distaste in post #67


...so hard to not get pulled into these stupid things.

---------
"It's cooling down now this time of year so the system wouldn't be tested in high temps. "

should be okay for charging down to around 65 or so - after that, wait 'till spring.

may not be able to solder it up if in the coil.

->previous posts edited.

edit:

forgot to mention, the lineset and coil can be nitrogen tested without having to replace the refrigerant, if that's the technician's preference for leak detection.

the refrigerant can be pumped down into the condenser and the coil/lines totally isolated. 

after the test and possible repair, just a matter of pulling a vacuum (removing air/moisture/nitrogen), releasing the charge and adding refrigerant.

The $425 for refrigerant rip-off.



> Blower Motor 5.4amps


I missed this.

At that amperage, your blower is likely running on highest speed. on a smaller 1.5-2 ton unit that causes a lower split, so even when it's fixed, don't expect 18-22f drop without having the fan speed lowered.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The post you asked to be removed, have been removed.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jr64 said:


> Update:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Tech checked pressure at condenser unit:
> 
> ...


Myself. I usually check with an electronic detector first(find 80% of them that way). Then determine on a per unit basis whether dye or a nitrogen with trace gas check is better.

Home warranty companies don't use the best contractors around. They use the ones that will agree to work for a very low labor rate, and no travel charges.

At this point, you may be better off calling another contractor, and paying for them to check for the leak. Then when they find it get the cost of them to repair it. And then check with your home warranty company to see how much they will pay toward it. If they balk too much. Tell them you don't like the idea of them sending a company out that has already admitted that they will violate the EPA regs.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The problem may be that it may take another contractor 1-2 hours to find the leak which then you will have spent $100 for the service call and another $200 to find a leak and that is before repairs. Then you tell the home warranty dudes and they laugh at you and say the other guy does know what he is doing and they have to find the leak themselves. Contractors hate each other and will never take anothers word for anything.

If your family friend can recharge it (legal in the US to do so ) I would get him to take the service valves caps off. Tighten the fitting inside by unscewing it all the way back out so it seals brass to brass snugly. Then get him to get some Nylog leak sealant and put it on the cap threads and tighten them down and snug them another 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn. That is supposed to be the way it is done at install. The caps where he puts his gauges on should be replaced with brass ones if plastic.

Not sure what your EPA regs are but if it is legal to recharge that way then go 4 it. If it leaks out within a year then it has a big leak which should be found. At 13 years old the compressor has worn valves and lost some capacity and may be damaged from freezing up. I would not throw good $$ at it and would think about replacing the whole system. Those units used piston compressors not scrolls and I have had some wear at that point and lose capacity.

Nobody here can decide for you how to spend your money but if you have to pay up to $1000 to fix a old unit it usually is not worth it unless you are moving soon.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

In total agreement re: repair vs replace - it's a very cheap, noisy unit. better built units with scrolls of the same age could be worth repairing.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> Tighten the fitting inside by unscewing it all the way back out so it seals brass to brass snugly. .


Goodman service valves do not work that way. They have a rubber seal inside. There is no back seal.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

jr64 said:


> Only problem is. For the tech covered by the warranty to do a leak test I need to agree to $425 on freon.


It's worth it to keep in mind you can get a whole new ac (Goodman 2 ton complete with indoor coil) starting at about $950. That would be INCLUDING the new r410a charge.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> Goodman service valves do not work that way. They have a rubber seal inside. There is no back seal.


Some of them do. It all depends on what year of manufacturer. Parker makes most of the valves and changed them later. I worked for the largest Goodman dealer in Wpg and we had a huge contract with a major home builder so I did hordes of them.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> It's worth it to keep in mind you can get a whole new ac (Goodman 2 ton complete with indoor coil) starting at about $950. That would be INCLUDING the new r410a charge.


Yeah but someone needs to install it using a proper micron gauge etc.

We double the cost of the units plus our labor is expensive.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> We double the cost of the units plus our labor is expensive.


I don't find that too hard to believe.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

yuri said:


> Yeah but someone needs to install it using a proper micron gauge etc.
> 
> We double the cost of the units plus our labor is expensive.


...then the builder doubles or triples that price.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> ...then the builder doubles or triples that price.


Meh.... 
Spend a couple bucks on the tools and the how-to books and cut the middle men right out of the picture. That's after all what DIY sites are for! :smile:


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

Buy a leak detector, have your friend check the system. Let him charge if no leak and give him the tester for his trouble!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

If there's no leak, where did the refrigerant go? Either there's a leak or someone is huffing the freon. 

It's really pathetic to pay for a home warranty and have to shell out hundreds of dollars simple refrigerant leak. defeats the purpose.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> It's really pathetic to pay for a home warranty and have to shell out hundreds of dollars simple refrigerant leak. defeats the purpose.


Warranties in general are rubbish. People spend so much time worrying about them. You should read the fine print before you take them too seriously. They might save you a few bucks (usually just parts which are double and triple marked up by the contractor anyway and turn out to be reasonably cheap if bought from the horse's mouth)... but if you think you're getting away scott-free then 90% of the time you're in for a shock.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> Warranties in general are rubbish. People spend so much time worrying about them. You should read the fine print before you take them too seriously. They might save you a few bucks (usually just parts which are double and triple marked up by the contractor anyway and turn out to be reasonably cheap if bought from the horse's mouth)... but if you think you're getting away scott-free then 90% of the time you're in for a shock.


Realtors are to blame, they are the ones that push them! Oh wait, a commission!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Home warranties: About as useful or useless as Home Inspectors:vs_karate:


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## Jeepgrl98 (Sep 23, 2015)

It could be something as simple as trash in the lines... Has happened to me before 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Update:

Previous home owner didn't get either system recharged in the 4 years she owned the house. So might be a slow leak. My friend converted both his homes to R410a and is going to charge both of our systems (maybe next week) with his left over 30lb bottle of R22 and we'll monitor them and see how long it takes for the charge to go down.

Temps have dropped and don't need teh A/C for the next 7months!

*NEW issue*

I just discovered my inducer fan isn't coming on in the attic furnace.
The basement furnace inducer fan died in Jan - and was replaced covered by warranty. The system made a buzzing noise when turned to Heat. 

However, the attic system blower comes on with inducer or heat and no buzzing noise. I also check to see if the motor was hot and its cold to the touch so perhaps its the control board?

How can I confirm this I'm pretty new using a multi-meter...

I called the warranty company since a new board or inducer is worth the $75 service call fee. However, I want to check if it isn't something I can fix myself before they arrive probably in 3 days. I did a visual check on the wiring so far. 

And I cant check the flame sensor or igniter until the inducer works..


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> Update:
> 
> Previous home owner didn't get either system recharged in the 4 years she owned the house. So might be a slow leak. My friend converted both his homes to R410a and is going to charge both of our systems (maybe next week) with his left over 30lb bottle of R22 and we'll monitor them and see how long it takes for the charge to go down.
> 
> ...



I would not charge them until you need to use them, just going to leak out.

JMO


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Does the inducer get power?


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Discovered the was no power coming from the tstat

I changed out the tstat and now I have heat.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

digitalplumber said:


> I would not charge them until you need to use them, just going to leak out.
> 
> JMO



That's true.
I'm just curious as to how long it takes to get low.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Previous home owner didn't get either system recharged in the 4 years she owned the house. So might be a slow leak. My friend converted both his homes to R410a and is going to charge both of our systems (maybe next week) with his left over 30lb bottle of R22 and we'll monitor them and see how long it takes for the charge to go down.


I'm betting that the leak hasn't been there for 4 years.

If you're going to have this system topped off, which i can't recommend, see what the cost of some dye leak detection light is. A electronic leak detector would be very expensive, but the dye may be cheap. I know a uv light is needed, and these days you can get a "black light" uv cfl (put it in to a trouble light) for not that much money.

With the dye in you could find the leak yourself, then maybe even get a new coil out of the warranty company without paying a ridiculous amount of a leak search. You show the warranty tech the leak and request the repair.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

That's not a bad idea. The only catch with the HVAC guys is that when the fix the leak they will also fill the system and charge $95/lb of R22.

If I only need half a lb than that's ok i guess...

I'm not sure about putting dye into the system since its really messy and I'm not sure if it has any adverse affects putting other chemicals through the system.

Any thoughts on that?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dye doesn't have any ill effects(when directions are followed). It only travels with the oil.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

If the leak is in the coil, any half decent tech would save the refrigerant by pumping it all into the condenser before fixing it. If it's in the condensing unit, the gas would have to be recovered by law, possibly reclaimed.

Just a matter of pulling a vacuum and adding a filter drier.

The only issue is that the warranty company's contractor may not fix the leak until you lose cooling again. 

I'm telling you, based on people's experiences I've read about on different forums the vast majority of residential contractors these days are con artists who rip people off and do substandard work, love to sell new equipment instead of doing repairs. No work ethic at all. I haven't been impressed with any "hvac guy" i've seen work in person either. *Good luck, you'll need it. No one should have to jump through hoops like you are just to have a basic leak repaired.

*


> I'm not sure about putting dye into the system since its really messy and I'm not sure if it has any adverse affects putting other chemicals through the system.


I think there are kits that let you inject it. To my knowledge they're all approved by the compressor manufacturers. The manufacturers would never approve something that will increase warranty returns - cuts into their profit.

If your friend can get R22 presumably he has a refrigeration license and even possibly some of the tools/knowledge needed to do repairs. Maybe you can DIY it if it's possible to get parts.

Your friend must have the gauges, will need a vacuum pump though. (things like a micron gauge, nitrogen u could get away without, most hack resi contractors probably don't use either) If the coil is leaking you could even order a new goodman coil off alpine and use it; you just have to make sure the right orifice is in it. You can match a 10 seer condenser to a 13 seer sized coil on straight cool system, but not the other way around. 

Could also use a txv instead of an orifice (more efficient in mismatched applications), granted if the condenser unit has a reciprocating compressor, a hard start kit would be required too.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> That's not a bad idea. The only catch with the HVAC guys is that when the fix the leak they will also fill the system and charge $95/lb of R22.
> 
> If I only need half a lb than that's ok i guess...
> 
> ...


Again, remember, you need to see him weigh his tank upon starting and afterwards, to determine actual amount used to charge. I doubt he is going to say just 1/2 pound.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Thank you for the information. Yeah my friend was a HVAC tech in a former life he installed the new 410a systems in the two homes he owns.

I'll do a little research on teh dye test and play it by ear.


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## digitalplumber (Jul 8, 2011)

jr64 said:


> Thank you for the information. Yeah my friend was a HVAC tech in a former life he installed the new 410a systems in the two homes he owns.
> 
> I'll do a little research on teh dye test and play it by ear.


 Question: If you have access to this person, why not let him troubleshoot, fix correctly and just move on?


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

I spoke to him about it and he recommended just recharging and keep an eye on it and see how the system performs. He also said to put money aside for a new system in the future.

I'm not sure if he can't be bothered spending the time to find and fix the leak or what...

I'm waiting for him to get back to me about a weekend he's available to do the recharge and might suggest the leak detection/repair when we speak next.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Refrigerant is not a consumable. If it needs to be charged, it was either not charged correctly from the initial install or it has a leak. If it's a leak, it'll leak down again and keep needing refrigerant until the leak is fixed. 
R22 is also getting very expensive.......


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Yes, I understand everything in your post.

However, we have a 30lb bottle of R22 that cost $50 back when it was purchased. I have two systems which take 5lb each... only one of the systems isn't cooling.

Ideally I want to fix the leak and recharge the system, but i'm new at this and will need to rely in the availability of our family friend.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Definitely do something with dye; he recharges it, puts dye in, you search for the leak with a uv light. If a leak repair isn't too expensive in terms of materials (like under $300), a repair may be worth while. You would be out at least $2000-$3000+ for a very basic builder's condenser and coil.

Also it's a good idea to ask for superheat/subcooling readings once it's charged; post them here, we could tell if there's another issue. *The pressures you posted looked pretty suspicious to me, how low the suction was relative to the head - there is a chance that there's a refrigerant leak and another problem like the wrong orifice or high side restriction.*


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Ok I'll post back when I get more info.

Thanks again!


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## a.man1302 (May 12, 2014)

It could be low on refrigerant or your evaporator coils may be dirty... or you may have a restriction in your refrigeration cycle.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

The plan is to do a dye leak detection test in the spring when i can actually run the system. I hope to be able to fix the leak with help from some expert friends and will report back when done.

As for the mechanical contractors who came out and released R22 in the environment. I reported them to my home warranty company (who I plan on dropping upon expiration in Jan).

The $80 (no)"service fee" was waived.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Might as well verify its low on refrigerant before you inject substances into the unit.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> As for the mechanical contractors who came out and released R22 in the environment. I reported them to my home warranty company (who I plan on dropping upon expiration in Jan).


If you know the name of the company and tech, report 'em to the EPA! *******s like this need to be shut down; odds are the epa won't do anything though without strong evidence like video footage.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

Funny you should say that because right after it happened i videoed asking "why he just did that".

His response was "it's only a little bit"

at his defense he was just releasing the R22 in the gauge lines but his plan was to do a nitrogen test and evacuate teh 2lbs in the system


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

wouldn't worry about a tiny amount if that's what it was; it's dumping the charge that's an issue. tiny amounts are routinely released when techs purge their hoses of air. don't know if it's illegal.


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## jr64 (Sep 18, 2015)

But I believe evacuating the remaining R22 in the system even if it's only 2 out of 5lbs is illegal.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

purging the r22 in the hoses after servicing, i wouldn't worry about, neither would the epa or anyone else.

dumping charge to do a leak test is most definitely wrong.

epa is probably more concerned about people venting hundreds of pounds from large chiller more so than the small residential unit.

or the repeat offender who's also stealing: http://www.achrnews.com/articles/127297-man-gets-prison-time-for-venting-r-22


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jr64 said:


> Funny you should say that because right after it happened i videoed asking "why he just did that".
> 
> His response was "it's only a little bit"
> 
> at his defense he was just releasing the R22 in the gauge lines but his plan was to do a nitrogen test and evacuate teh 2lbs in the system


Purging his hoses isn't a EPA violation in the USA.


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