# Primer always required?



## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Well we argue about primer vs. no primer on here just about on a monthly basis...........

As a professional painter, I believe, and will always believe in using a quality drywall primer on new sheetrock. Drywall and joint compound are porous and the primer does a great job of sealing it all up to accept the finish coats. A lot of the new paints claim to be "paint-and-primer-in-one" and they may indeed be, but, for me, I like to do it the old-fashioned way, with a separate primer and a separate paint application.


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## daveblt (Nov 7, 2011)

You definitely should prime first . Your going to need more than one coat anyway so why not just prime first coat with the same color as the top coat .


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Primer is not necessary for drywall with many modern acrylics. If the paint your using is rated for it, you should be fine.

I would caution anyone using acrylic finish paints directly on new drywall to make sure the surface is completely dust free before painting. A lot of drywall primers are designed with compounds that can bond well even if there is some dust on the surface. Acrylic finish paints lack this quality and any surface dust at all can cause adhesion problems.

Removing %100 of the dust from new smooth drywall is no easy task, but its very important if you don't plan on using a drywall specific primer. Nearly all of the adhesion problems I've seen on drywall were the result of surface dust.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

In theory, I agree, but would still prime first as getting ALL the dust off is not easy.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

chrisn said:


> In theory, I agree, but would still prime first as getting ALL the dust off is not easy.



No it isn't. It seems to me like any one dust removal strategy by itself isn't completely effective. I usually dust walls two, or even three times if I'm trying for a "dust free" surface. Vacuuming alone doesn't seem to quite do trick, but vacuuming and wiping off with a rag Can. 

The easiest way I've found if its new construction is to use an electric leaf blower in conjunction with a dust mop. Set up fans to ensure good air flow out of the space then blow the walls off and wipe with the mop at the same time. Going over the area two or three times like this is a fairly quick way to remove dust. Not feasible in most remodel situations though, too messy. 

Some times it's easier to just prime.


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## Curmudgeon10 (Apr 29, 2010)

I've majored in drywall repair these past years as a byproduct of extensive home remodeling. What I've found is not a problem with a paint adhesion or longevity over drywall, primed or not, but rather a noticeable difference in finish lustre when painting over the spackled/joint compound repairs vs. the adjacent previously painted surfaces.

This doesn't happen if you prime in my experience. I ALWAYS prime. And I've found that those box store "one coat covers" or "no prime required" paints generally require just as many coats as a prime and cover, depending on color you are going over.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> The easiest way I've found if its new construction is to use an electric leaf blower in conjunction with a dust mop. Set up fans to ensure good air flow out of the space then blow the walls off and wipe with the mop at the same time.


I did this a few weeks ago on a small partition wall I put up. Used the leaf blower and blew all the dust out the side door that was right there. Later that day, I found my truck covered in white drywall dust. DOH! :icon_biggrin:


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Primer serves many purposes and there are different types of primer for different situations. Primer is a problem solver and also a preventative paint failure measure in some situations. I personally would and do prime new drywall prior to applying paint to it.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Curmudgeon10 said:


> I've majored in drywall repair these past years as a byproduct of extensive home remodeling. What I've found is not a problem with a paint adhesion or longevity over drywall, primed or not, but rather a noticeable difference in finish lustre when painting over the spackled/joint compound repairs vs. the adjacent previously painted surfaces.
> 
> This doesn't happen if you prime in my experience. I ALWAYS prime. And I've found that those box store "one coat covers" or "no prime required" paints generally require just as many coats as a prime and cover, depending on color you are going over.


I agree. One reason to prime new drywall is, because it will help to achieve proper color and sheen.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> No it isn't. It seems to me like any one dust removal strategy by itself isn't completely effective. I usually dust walls two, or even three times if I'm trying for a "dust free" surface. Vacuuming alone doesn't seem to quite do trick, but vacuuming and wiping off with a rag Can.
> 
> The easiest way I've found if its new construction is to use an electric leaf blower in conjunction with a dust mop. Set up fans to ensure good air flow out of the space then blow the walls off and wipe with the mop at the same time. Going over the area two or three times like this is a fairly quick way to remove dust. Not feasible in most remodel situations though, too messy.
> 
> Some times it's easier to just prime.


bingo:thumbsup: :laughing:


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

Well her idea of prime is just the white latex like killz. Then 2 coats of paint on it. My idea is 2 coats of paint & the first coat serving as the prime.

I just think it is a bit of a time waste but its what she wants so that is what will happen lol


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Hick said:


> Well her idea of prime is just the white latex like killz. Then 2 coats of paint on it. My idea is 2 coats of paint & the first coat serving as the prime.
> 
> I just think it is a bit of a time waste but its what she wants so that is what will happen lol


there are much better drywall primers out there for sure:yes:


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Hick said:


> Well her idea of prime is just the white latex like killz. Then 2 coats of paint on it. My idea is 2 coats of paint & the first coat serving as the prime.
> 
> I just think it is a bit of a time waste but its what she wants so that is what will happen lol


Primer is not paint and paint is not primer.


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

New 'Rock?
YES...DEFINITELY prime it!!!
Use a better primer, like Zinsser's 123 (white) or Gardz (clear).
Now you've got a non-absorptive base, so your topcoats can show their best.

Faron


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## funflyer (Dec 5, 2014)

I've always used a cheap contractor grade flat wall paint as a base to seal fresh drywall. That's was what an old timer who made his living painting taught me over 30 years ago. Use a color close to the finish color. Primer is for other issues with paint but not necessary for new construction.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

funflyer said:


> I've always used a cheap contractor grade flat wall paint as a base to seal fresh drywall. That's was what an old timer who made his living painting taught me over 30 years ago. Use a color close to the finish color. Primer is for other issues with paint but not necessary for new construction.[/QUOTE]
> 
> That is certainly arguable:laughing:


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Most paints, including paints/primer in one spec primer on bare substrates, including drywall before painting. Every new construction project I have ever done has always had primer in the specs to be applied on new drywall. In general paint manufactures will not even warranty there paint if specs are not followed. I personally apply primer on all new drywall to be painted and it is standard operating procedures for our painting company to do so.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

funflyer said:


> I've always used a cheap contractor grade flat wall paint as a base to seal fresh drywall. That's was what an old timer who made his living painting taught me over 30 years ago. Use a color close to the finish color. Primer is for other issues with paint but not necessary for new construction.



I was researching joint compound a few weeks ago and noticed that the USG company (well known manufacturer of drywall products, and owners of the "Sheetrock" brand name) recommend using flat paint as a first coat option over their products. Here's a quote from the all-purpose joint compound data sheet;

"For priming and decorating with paint, texture or wallcovering, follow manufacturer’s directions for materials used. All surfaces, including applied joint compound, must be thoroughly dry, dust-free and not glossy before decorating. A prime coat of Sheetrock® brand First CoatTM primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration"

Also note the phrase "All surfaces ....must be..DUST FREE...before decorating" 


Here's a link to that data sheet;

http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...ll-purpose-joint-compound-submittal-J1969.pdf


While it is true that many paint products sold with the phrase "paint&primer" actually do require primer on some bare substrates, new drywall is not one of them. 
All of the newer generation of self priming paints that I've studied and experimented with are specced for application directly to new drywall. Benjamin Moores Aura, and Regal Select, Valspar Ultra, Behr Premium Plus Ultra, Sherwin Williams Super Paint, and Emerald, and many more are all rated for application to new drywall without primer. Once again, some form of the phrase "dust free surface" is included in the directions. 


I'm a big fan of primer in general, and of following product specifications to the letter when possible. There is a phrase in the pro paint community that says "when in doubt, prime it out" and I agree with that as well. However after a few years of study and experimentation I can find no benefit to priming new drywall other than the dust issue I mentioned in a previous post and possibly some economic benefit from using a cheaper primer as a first coat (though in most instances priming is of no technical benefit if specifications are to be followed to ensure product warranty coverage).

The idea that primer is required on new drywall for proper sheen and color development of modern acrylic top coat systems simply doesn't hold true under experimentation.


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## Curmudgeon10 (Apr 29, 2010)

JThe idea that primer is required on new drywall for proper sheen and color development of modern acrylic top coat systems simply doesn't hold true under experimentation.[/QUOTE said:


> Perhaps in your experience, and perhaps I'm quibbling. New drywall or not, I've found a difference in the appearance of paint applied over mud patches without primer vs. those that are primed.
> 
> And my primary gripe with the "no prime" paints is the claim that many make that "one coat covers." Sure, if you are repainting a room the same color.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

For priming and decorating with paint, texture or wallcovering, follow manufacturer’s directions for materials used. All surfaces, including applied joint compound, must be thoroughly dry, dust-free and not glossy before decorating. A prime coat of Sheetrock® brand First CoatTM primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration"

One should never, EVER, apply wallpaper without a PROPER wall covering primer and I highly doubt anyone in the wall covering installation and especially removal business would argue that. At least they should not. 

Maybe I am reading this wrong but IMO, this is very very bad information


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

chrisn said:


> For priming and decorating with paint, texture or wallcovering, follow manufacturer’s directions for materials used. All surfaces, including applied joint compound, must be thoroughly dry, dust-free and not glossy before decorating. A prime coat of Sheetrock® brand First CoatTM primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration"
> 
> One should never, EVER, apply wallpaper without a PROPER wall covering primer and I highly doubt anyone in the wall covering installation and especially removal business would argue that. At least they should not.
> 
> Maybe I am reading this wrong but IMO, this is very very bad information


Sorry Chris, your right I should have quoted further in the article. It does go on to say;

". Walls to be covered with wallpaper or vinyl wallcovering should be sealed per manufacturer’s recommendation."


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Curmudgeon10

I agree with both of your statements actually. Perhaps I should clarify. 

Lets take a look at the first statement that primed patches look different that unprimed patches. This is something that I (and most of us I'm sure) have seen also. Sometimes to dramatic effect. The reasoning for this has to do with the functions drywall primers play. 

I think it's fair to say that the majority of new construction drywall gets primed with a drywall specific primer, then top coated with paint. This is a lower cost way (drywall primers are generally of lower cost than paint) to achieve coverage and film build with the first coat, and creates a user friendly surface to paint over. Although drywall primers do equalize the porosity of drywall, they don't actually seal the surface. They really don't even try to seal the surface. USG puts the idea candidly in there drywall primer specifications;

"Sheetrock® brand First Coat primer has been formulated specifically to equalize both porosity and surface texture differences and provide greater uniformity of the finish coat. In contrast to a sealer, First Coat primer does not provide a film that seals the substrate surface. Instead, it mini- mizes porosity differences by providing a base that equalizes the absorption rate variations between the drywall face paper and the finished joint compound when painted. "

In other words rather than seal, it creates a uniformly porous surface. This is why drywall primers "feel different" to paint over than say a primer like Guardz or Bin. The first coat of paint is somewhat absorbed into the surface and "stays put" better than when painting over primers or paints that actually do seal. Flat paint has similar characteristics in that the film is porous and somewhat dry feeling. 

If someone tries to paint a patch on an unsealed wall without priming, with a paint that does seal well (say a quality matte or eggshell paint) the repair will stick out like a sore thumb. This is because the patch didn't have that uniformly porous surface at the beginning like the original wall does. Multiple coats of this hypothetical paint will only make it worse because the first coat sealed the surface and created a different sheen hold out ratio for future top coats than if it had been primed. 

The same logic applies to using primers that Do seal well. It often comes up on this forum people asking for advice on blending patches. There seems to a general consensus among those of us that give advice that, yes priming your patches is necessary but Do Not use high sealing primers like Bin or Guardz. They have the same sealing effect that a direct application of a non-flat paint would have and that can cause flashing. Of course, that's not an absolute thing. You may run into a paint job that has been sealed originally, and the situation reverses. But IME, the vast majority of new drywall gets either primed with drywall primer or cheap flat paint. 

A good visual demonstration of this effect can be found in Jack Pauhl's drywall primer review. In it he takes to task so-called primer/sealers and shows that in fact drywall primers don't seal well at all even compared to a low quality paint&primer. This information is interesting, but in some ways irrelevant as traditional methods for painting new drywall do not rely on an initially sealed surface, in fact the opposite is often desired for the reasons I stated earlier. 

Using paint&primers or high-sealing primers rather than drywall primers on new drywall is essentially a different approach, not necessarily "better" or "worse" of its one right but depending on the goals of application. If the goal is to provide a sealed surface with consistent sheen hold out with the first coat, a drywall primer will not do the job. Most are not designed to seal anyway. If the goal is simply to equalize porosity and create a more easily paintable surface, then drywall primer is the trick.

The "one coat coverage" claims some manufactures are making ties into this idea somewhat as well. How can they claim one coat coverage when in reality it rarely ever happens? After all there are laws to protect us from false advertising.

The answer seems to be the same thing we encounter in advertising all the time. Will your new sports car go 0 to 60 in 8.2 seconds ? Sure it will, for a professional driver on a closed course. Is the average driver likely to be able to accomplish this on a daily basis? Not likely. The same applies to paint. Can these paints achieve true one coat coverage over a variety of colors? Sure, the draw down samples sitting on the counter at the paint store are proof of that. Will a real person, pro or amateur, be able to duplicate the consistent film thickness necessary to achieve it without the aid of spraying and detailed measurement? Not likely. So it follows that just because a paint is capable of producing a perfect finish on new drywall in two coats without primer, it's not necessarily practical to expect those results in the real world, especially in the realm of DIY. 

Thats my take on it anyway. Sorry for the long post, this is very interesting subject to me.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

No you don't need to prime drywall if you don't care or know if your paint job will look like crap. Two coats of builders flat will be fine, but if you ever re-paint with a sheen, you are in for a world of hurt. You will get no holdout of the sheen without using a primer. There is a reason builders use the cheapest, defect hiding flat paint they can, and that is to hide crappy drywall jobs.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

klaatu said:


> No you don't need to prime drywall if you don't care or know if your paint job will look like crap. Two coats of builders flat will be fine, but if you ever re-paint with a sheen, you are in for a world of hurt. You will get no holdout of the sheen without using a primer. There is a reason builders use the cheapest, defect hiding flat paint they can, and that is to hide crappy drywall jobs.


IME, the current generation of latex enamel paints actually seal drywall much more effectively than drywall primers. 

I think part of the confusion on this issue comes from different interpretations of the word "seal". I'm using it to mean non-porous. As in top coats of paint do not absorb into the surface, but rather bond to the top of it. A few primers do seal drywall in this sense, but in general drywall specific primers do not, or at least not very well. In coatings systems that include a drywall specific primer as a first coat, the job of "sealing" the drywall is done by the first coat of paint. The primer simply creates a uniform porosity to facilitate application of the first coat. 

Here's a new wall done with one coat of an inexpensive paint&primer product. This paint has a satin sheen and is white. One thick coat (4mil to spec) was applied by spray and back roll. It did a very good job of sealing the drywall and provided good, touch-up able sheen hold out for the top coat. 

The second pic is a close up of the same wall after the second coat applied in the same manner as the first. 

This wall was part of a new house done entirely with this system. I was quite happy with the results, and was able to touch up without flashing.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

I've wrote a book in this thread so might as well add a chapter. 
When I was about 21, before the phrase paint&primer was popularized, I was a foreman for my dad. One of our contractors was running a tight budget on a custom home being done hourly by us. He asked my dad to skip the drywall primer to save money. The house had more wood walls than drywall but it did have two long, high walls with windows at the end. 

I was furious. I complained to my dad, wanted to prime it anyway, etc.. It was eggshell and i feared it was going to look terrible, but I did it anyway. It actually looked good with two coats. I was surprised, but shrugged it off as a fluke. Didn't cross my mind to Not prime drywall again for many years after that. 

A couple years ago when I discovered a fancy phone and these forums I became fascinated at the controversy here and at PT about this idea. I do see that it's frustrating to the pro community that people often think that phrase (P&P) means more than it actually does, and try paint their oil trim with it or paint over dust/dirt. 

That's part of the reason I decided to try it on the new house pictured above. I was curious about it and the owners weren't opposed to the cost of a two coat finish. I don't know of any other way a finish like that can be achieved in two coats. Since them I've tried it several more times with good results. 

Good primer like 123 on drywall is great. Even not so good primer can save your a$$ adhesion wise if the dust isn't remove very well, and can be a cheap way to get film build. But I'm not seeing disastrous results from not using it. Applied correctly on clean drywall, two coats does well.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

JMays, one reason I like to prime drywall is that it makes the wall SANDABLE and sandable walls really create that "baby-butt" smooth finish so many people desire. I'm not saying regular paint isn't sandable, but, it does tend to gum up and leave bits of gunk on the walls. It's not a process I use that often, mainly in new construction with homeowners who are fussy and particular.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Gymschu said:


> JMays, one reason I like to prime drywall is that it makes the wall SANDABLE and sandable walls really create that "baby-butt" smooth finish so many people desire. I'm not saying regular paint isn't sandable, but, it does tend to gum up and leave bits of gunk on the walls. It's not a process I use that often, mainly in new construction with homeowners who are fussy and particular.


 Yes that's true. If you've got much fuzz on the boards primer will hide it better. Enamels don't sand well. Luckily on that one job I was following an ace mud man who did very little sanding.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> IME, the current generation of latex enamel paints actually seal drywall much more effectively than drywall primers.
> 
> I think part of the confusion on this issue comes from different interpretations of the word "seal". I'm using it to mean non-porous. As in top coats of paint do not absorb into the surface, but rather bond to the top of it. A few primers do seal drywall in this sense, but in general drywall specific primers do not, or at least not very well. In coatings systems that include a drywall specific primer as a first coat, the job of "sealing" the drywall is done by the first coat of paint. The primer simply creates a uniform porosity to facilitate application of the first coat.
> 
> ...


That looks as though it was a very good drywall job. That was one of the points I was trying to make. Being able to use two coats of a paint with sheen is quite dependent on the quality of the drywall work, as well as the quality and volume solids of the paint used. I have a gallon of "paint and primer in one" in a satin finish I bought for $17.99, and I doubt if it would look anywhere near that good with two coats. A better term would be "milk and cereal coating" than p&p in one. Also,when a professional painter such as yourself, using quality tools and materials does a job, it makes a huge difference in the end result. Most DIY'ers would struggle to get as good of finish regardless of the drywall work and the materials used. I would still recommend to them to use a "quality" drywall primer, as it is easier to sand and could save them work on fixing imperfections later in the job.
Not to mention the fact that primers are typically cheaper than topcoats. Unfortunately, using a dedicated primer would typically require a third coat to the system, but there is something to be said about taking the time to do it as best you can if it is your own home. Using one coat of paint over one coat of drywall can create touchup issues as we all know. But all things considered, and maybe i'm showing my age here, but I still think a coat of primer and two coats of finish is the best practice. The "instant gratification" marketers (hint,hint) are winning this battle now, but somehow I can't believe that this p&p in one thing isn't going to bite someone in the arse someday soon.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

What would everyone recommend as far as brands for paint as well as primer since I am going to be doing both.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Zinsser 123 is a good primer for drywall and lots of other things. It's a few dollars more than some cheaper drywall primers, but still reasonable at around $20 a gallon. Well worth it IMO.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

thnx. Any suggestions on actual paint brands?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

I hesitate to get into recommending specific brands because there are several good ones out there and different people like different ones. I prefer Benjamin Moore Aura or Regal if I have the budget to use it. Ultra Spec is a good BM paint that is mid range priced. Some of my favorite lower budget paints are Valspar Ultra, and Ferrell Calhoon. The SW stuff like Pro-Mar 200 and Cashmere are pretty good too.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

If you are worried about cost, look at PPG Manor Hall, very good paint that does not cost an arm and a leg. If I had choice it would be Aura or Regal also.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Splurge just a little and get the best paint you can get! The recommendations above are excellent.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh I will, but also do not want to break the bank. Likely will just get valspar ultra.


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## ratherbefishin' (Jun 16, 2007)

Sherwin Williams has a 30% off coupon you can print from their website, good until the end of the month. That could give you an upgrade without spending a lot more. I've used the Valspar Ultra in satin and semi with decent results, can't speak for other sheens.


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## igneous (Feb 24, 2010)

*Primer over painted surface*

I will be painting a room with VERY garish yellow walls with a green accent wall. The aesthetics notwithstanding, the owner wants to use a "sand" colored paint for the repaint. After reading dozens of posts on using or not using primer, I'm still perplexed. Will two coats of SW Cashmere or Superpaint suffice over these colors, or should I "prime down" with white or tinted primer and plan on two coats?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

No need to prime previously painted walls. The SuperPaint or Cashmere will cover in two coats.........UNLESS that yellow is fluorescent yellow. Sometimes I prime a glossy wall just to give it that extra bite for the topcoats.


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## Islander26 (Mar 17, 2015)

ZZZZZ said:


> I did this a few weeks ago on a small partition wall I put up. Used the leaf blower and blew all the dust out the side door that was right there. Later that day, I found my truck covered in white drywall dust. DOH! :icon_biggrin:


I have been in drywall for quite a while, and I never even thought of a leaf blower.

That must have been a sight to see. :laughing:

I love folks who think outside the lines. :laughing: Hope the neighbors didn't get mad?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I think if you go through this thread, eliminate every post that says you "must" do something or "always" do something, cull those out. Then you're probably left with some reasonable advice.

Paint chemistry and primer performance are both pretty misunderstood by amateurs, most professionals, and store sales people in general. It's not easy to understood, and it's not easy to keep up with as changes are made. Also there is a lot of hyperbole regarding paint, which is rarely legitimate. It tends to be based on very anecdotal evidence. In fact, the trades in general tend to be very non-scientific and based on rumors and ad-hoc evidence.

Many walls look just fine forever without a special purpose primer. Many don't. There is a lot of good research on this topic on Jack Pauhl's website. Many primers that claim to be drywall sealers actually make it looks worse than if you had started with bare paint. When houses are spec'ed with drywall primer, it's basically because that's the way "it's always been done", and it's easiest to cover your ass that way, even if you don't know how all the modern products work together.


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## mathmonger (Dec 27, 2012)

I never heard the term "holdout" before. I didn't know that was a thing. Interesting.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mathmonger said:


> I never heard the term "holdout" before. I didn't know that was a thing. Interesting.


It is interesting, and very important. It's the primary concept behind the problem of "flashing" paint as related to touch-up. I think I remember reading somewhere that Zinsser Bin had %92 sheen holdout. The TDS just says it has "excellent enamel holdout". 

Unfortunately, the paint industry is rather vague in characterizing these properties in paints and primers. It's mostly up to us to discover what kind of holdout properties the products we use have. They do give descriptive phrases, like mentioned above with the Bin, but some actual numbers (like they started doing with sheen ratings in recent years) would be nice.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Sometimes I prime a glossy wall just to give it that extra bite for the topcoats.


Or just scuff sand  Identify the problem, then figure out a way to solve the problem. Sometimes a primer is a good solution, sometimes you might prefer a different way. And sometimes there is no problem but we use a primer anyway.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

Primer isnt necessary for Sheetrock that is simply going to be covered with something like paneling right? I mean, i really cannot see the point of that....but thought I would check with someone who is more experienced than me to make sure.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

No primer for paneling.

When I said there's no problem but sometimes we use a primer anyway, I meant it was wasteful to do so.

You don't need drywall at all if you're going to put up paneling, but I assume the drywall was already there for some other reason.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Hick said:


> Oh I will, but also do not want to break the bank. Likely will just get valspar ultra.


I just went into Lowes for some Ultra to do a "fix it up to sell" type job. It's been a while since I've been into Lowes, haven't had a job of this type in a while. Anyway, the Valspar Ultra is no more, it's been discontinued. The shelf space has been cleared to make room for some kind of Sherwin Williams/Lowes line. It a shame, the Ultra was a very decent lower cost paint. 

The Signature is the next line up and it's pretty good too, just costs a few more dollars. I really wouldn't recommend stepping down to the Valspar contractor paints (2,000 and 4,000).


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Now Lowe's is carrying Sherwin-Williams OVATION which is the relabeled HGTV paint that SW no longer carries. Confusing? Yes.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Speaking of big box values.... I got a couple gallons of Behr Ultra this week. One was an interior eggshell off white (based on Ultra Pure White base). The other was an interior semi-gloss Ultra Pure White with no tint, straight off the shelf. I had them shake the shelf can as well. The tinted eggshell went on as this paint usually does for me - fairly thick, good hiding and coverage. The straight semi-gloss was different - runnier, and didn't cover very well.

It occurred to me - I'm not sure if I've used their semi-gloss before. I find it hard to believe tint could have anything to do with it, especially with the miniscule amount in the off white.

That leaves 2 possibilities - either they do something to thin out the semi-gloss so it will appear to flow and level better on trim work, where they think you'll be using it, or it was a quality control issue.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

jeffnc said:


> That leaves 2 possibilities - either they do something to thin out the semi-gloss so it will appear to flow and level better on trim work, where they think you'll be using it, or it was a quality control issue.


Could of been due to age. Leave paint sitting long enough on the shelf unused it will eventually begin to go bad. Quality control is also possible. Or it could of been bought, some idiot screwed it up somehow (like adding water or paint thinner) then brought it back to the store claiming he didn't like it.

There is usually a reason things are on discount. (i am assuming you got them at discount price?)


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> Speaking of big box values.... I got a couple gallons of Behr Ultra this week. One was an interior eggshell off white (based on Ultra Pure White base). The other was an interior semi-gloss Ultra Pure White with no tint, straight off the shelf. I had them shake the shelf can as well. The tinted eggshell went on as this paint usually does for me - fairly thick, good hiding and coverage. The straight semi-gloss was different - runnier, and didn't cover very well.
> 
> It occurred to me - I'm not sure if I've used their semi-gloss before. I find it hard to believe tint could have anything to do with it, especially with the miniscule amount in the off white.
> 
> That leaves 2 possibilities - either they do something to thin out the semi-gloss so it will appear to flow and level better on trim work, where they think you'll be using it, or it was a quality control issue.


I have always found that to be the case( the 4 times I HAD to use it)


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Speaking of big box values.... I got a couple gallons of Behr Ultra this week. One was an interior eggshell off white (based on Ultra Pure White base). The other was an interior semi-gloss Ultra Pure White with no tint, straight off the shelf. I had them shake the shelf can as well. The tinted eggshell went on as this paint usually does for me - fairly thick, good hiding and coverage. The straight semi-gloss was different - runnier, and didn't cover very well.
> 
> It occurred to me - I'm not sure if I've used their semi-gloss before. I find it hard to believe tint could have anything to do with it, especially with the miniscule amount in the off white.
> 
> That leaves 2 possibilities - either they do something to thin out the semi-gloss so it will appear to flow and level better on trim work, where they think you'll be using it, or it was a quality control issue.


It's not too uncommon for higher sheen (semi-gloss, gloss) coatings in a specific line to be thinner than their lower sheen counterparts. The way I understand it is most paints and clear coats start out glossy. The resins themselves are shiny to begin with. Flattening agents are then added to bring down the sheen levels. "Flattening paste" is one phrase used to describe these fillers. The fillers add body to the coating making it thicker and flatter. 

Also, "flattening paste" is cheaper than the resinous base that its added to. This is why paints in any given line usually get a little cheaper with each step down in sheen. 

The flatter the coating = the higher percentage of flattening agents = the farther the resins are stretched = lower cost material = decreased durability of the coating. 

A good visual demonstration of this can be seen by comparing oil based gloss varnish to oil based satin varnish in the same line. If allowed to sit for a while, the satin varnish will settle out. All the flattening agents will fall to the bottom of the can and have to be reincorporated into the resinous mixture before use. If you've ever put a stir stick into a settled can of satin or semi-gloss varnish, that thick stuff on the bottom is a flattening agent. Gloss varnish does not have flattening agents (or at least very little) and does not settle out like the lower sheen varieties do. And a clear difference in viscosity can be seen between the gloss and satin, the gloss is thinner. 

Some of the older generation of painters (like my father) carried "flattening paste" with their supplies for on site adjustment of sheen levels of the coatings they applied. This practice, along with in-the-field color matching isn't much practiced anymore. Although flattening paste can still be obtained, it's no longer common to find it on the shelves at paint stores.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Hick said:


> Could of been due to age. Leave paint sitting long enough on the shelf unused it will eventually begin to go bad.


That's plausible, but I think it's highly unlikely at a store like Home Depot, a basic base white would be sitting on the shelf very long at all.



Hick said:


> Or it could of been bought, some idiot screwed it up somehow (like adding water or paint thinner) then brought it back to the store claiming he didn't like it.
> 
> There is usually a reason things are on discount. (i am assuming you got them at discount price?)


Also, plausible, but unlikely. No signs of having been opened. It was the standard retail price, off the shelf, no discount.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> It's not too uncommon for higher sheen (semi-gloss, gloss) coatings in a specific line to be thinner than their lower sheen counterparts.


Everything you said makes sense, but the thing is, I never noticed this sort of difference between, say, SuperPaint Flat and Semi Gloss. Has anyone?

As I think back on the paints I've used, I realize it's been quite a mish-mash. I don't have many apples to apples comparisons between Semi Gloss and flatter sheens in the exact same paint line, except for SuperPaint. For example, I'll do a wall in Behr Ultra Matte, then the trim and cabinets in SW ProClassic waterborne alkyd Semi Gloss. Or I'll do the walls in Aura, but they're not doing the trim (so have never had the opportunity to use Aura Semi Gloss). Even doing some cabinets right now in oil. I'll paint a house in SuperPaint, but the shutters in Resilience, that sort of thing. I guess I've used a lot of SuperPaint Semi Gloss now that I think about it for bread and butter painting.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Lets take a look at the viscosity of a specific paint line in different sheens. We'll look at BM Regal since BM is a little better about providing specific product info of this type on they're data sheets. 

I don't propose to know exactly what these numbers mean, but the difference is there. Maybe Ric or someone will chime in with some details. 

Regal flat wall paint has a viscosity of; 93 +-3KU

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo..._US&np=productcatalog_datasheets/tds/TDS_0215

Regal semi-gloss wall paint has a viscosity of; 115+- 2KU

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo..._US&np=productcatalog_datasheets/tds/TDS_0333

Btw, this has been an interesting thread, even though we've gotten WAY off topic


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Speaking of big box values.... I got a couple gallons of Behr Ultra this week. One was an interior eggshell off white (based on Ultra Pure White base). The other was an interior semi-gloss Ultra Pure White with no tint, straight off the shelf. I had them shake the shelf can as well. The tinted eggshell went on as this paint usually does for me - fairly thick, good hiding and coverage. The straight semi-gloss was different - runnier, and didn't cover very well.
> 
> It occurred to me - I'm not sure if I've used their semi-gloss before. I find it hard to believe tint could have anything to do with it, especially with the miniscule amount in the off white.
> 
> That leaves 2 possibilities - either they do something to thin out the semi-gloss so it will appear to flow and level better on trim work, where they think you'll be using it, or it was a quality control issue.


I've used Ultra in satin and semi in the past few weeks in my daughter's bedroom (reminding me again why I don't like Behr on trim, though it is a decent wall paint). I don't recall any palpable viscosity difference between the two, in the white or the deep bases, or at any other time I've used it. Same with their Premium Plus line. Their TDSs give the same 95-105 KU viscosity range for the two bases. QC? Adulteration? I bought dishwashing detergent at the grocery store once, only to find after I opened it up at home that someone had already replaced its contents with water. 

The Ultra Pure White base is not high-hiding, but usually the stuff is so thick you can put on enough to hide very well anyway.

Behr TDS:
http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/3750_R1014.pdf
http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/2750_R1014.pdf


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for posting the TDSs. Seems like a copout to just specify a range like that.

Here's their Premium Plus in Flat - a little more runny, which makes sense for the cheaper paint I guess.
http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1050_R1014.pdf

The Marquee in Matte has an even bigger range.
http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1450_R1014.pdf

Annoying.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Thanks for posting the TDSs. Seems like a copout to just specify a range like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Annoying.




Interesting that the two Benjamin Moore paints I posted give error ranges of 4 and 6 units, while the two Behr paints give ranges of 10 and 20 units. 

Seems there would have to some margin for error to account for the large batch sizes of paint being made. A 20 unit range on the Marque seems like a big range.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

It's almost like they're admitting quality control issues. But they'd probably say it's so they can reserve the right to change formula at any time.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> It's almost like they're admitting quality control issues.


It seems that way. And Marquee is not cheap paint. It's basically the same price as Emerald or Duration during one of SW's three- weeks-a-month 30% off 'sales'.



> But they'd probably say it's so they can reserve the right to change formula at any time.


Don't all the companies do that anyway?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

CyrusR said:


> Don't all the companies do that anyway?


Sure, just not by spec'ing such a big range. I'd think most would just change the spec sheet


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## Yirg (Apr 12, 2015)

What is the symptom of painting directly over joint compound (skipping primer)? and how often does it appear?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yirg said:


> What is the symptom of painting directly over joint compound (skipping primer)? and how often does it appear?



Symptom? Depends on the specific paint and the condition of the joint compound. If the compound is completely dry and dust free and the paint is self priming or otherwise rated for application directly over gypsum then the only symptom is some limited flashing (sheen difference between mud and board) of the first coat. The first coat seals and allows the second to have uniform sheen. 

If the compound has any surface dust on it, all kinds of problems can arise. Blistering and adhesion issues are common when the compound isn't dusted properly. I've seen small bubbles appear on the surface of the dried paint film. When they're popped, the paint can be easily peeled off the compound because the dust interfered with adhesion. 

If the paint is not rated for the application (requires a primer), or not applied thickly enough then the flashing issue may not go away with multiple coats and your left with an uneven looking wall.


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## Yirg (Apr 12, 2015)

Thanks, that's a great answer. I'm now definitely going to make sure the wall is dust-free and will not skip the primer. 

BTW, my plan is to make the wall a projection screen, so flashing is certainly something I want to avoid.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

For a wall screen, you would probably want special screen paint anyway. But if you don't, then at least paint it right.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/paint_perfect_screen_$100.htm


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Gymschu said:


> Now Lowe's is carrying Sherwin-Williams OVATION which is the relabeled HGTV paint that SW no longer carries. Confusing? Yes.


 no. It isn't the old HGTV. That's is the response the SW employees are being threatened with their lives to tell everyone. The Ovation is a much whiter paint and it covers much better. The skuttle-butt down on the docks is that it is Superpaint. The old HGTV has been completely discontinued, you will either have to take my word on that or test it for yourselves, because i am bound by honor not to tell how i know.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> It's not too uncommon for higher sheen (semi-gloss, gloss) coatings in a specific line to be thinner than their lower sheen counterparts. The way I understand it is most paints and clear coats start out glossy. The resins themselves are shiny to begin with. Flattening agents are then added to bring down the sheen levels. "Flattening paste" is one phrase used to describe these fillers. The fillers add body to the coating making it thicker and flatter.
> 
> Also, "flattening paste" is cheaper than the resinous base that its added to. This is why paints in any given line usually get a little cheaper with each step down in sheen.
> 
> ...


 Naw. Just Behrs paint that's all.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> Lets take a look at the viscosity of a specific paint line in different sheens. We'll look at BM Regal since BM is a little better about providing specific product info of this type on they're data sheets.
> 
> I don't propose to know exactly what these numbers mean, but the difference is there. Maybe Ric or someone will chime in with some details.
> 
> ...


 I believe those are ratings off of a Brookfield viscometer, but i am not sure. Don't remember how to decipher them though. I do know that KU stands for Krebs Unit! Don't know what that is, but that's what it means.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> Interesting that the two Benjamin Moore paints I posted give error ranges of 4 and 6 units, while the two Behr paints give ranges of 10 and 20 units.
> 
> Seems there would have to some margin for error to account for the large batch sizes of paint being made. A 20 unit range on the Marque seems like a big range.


 Nope. Behr just doesn't want or need that close of a quality control tolerance. That costs to much money. Their paint is gritty as hell too.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> no. It isn't the old HGTV. That's is the response the SW employees are being threatened with their lives to tell everyone. The Ovation is a much whiter paint and it covers much better. The skuttle-butt down on the docks is that it is Superpaint. The old HGTV has been completely discontinued, you will either have to take my word on that or test it for yourselves, because i am bound by honor not to tell how i know.


Well, I can tell you I was just in Lowe's the other day and saw huge Sherwin Williams HGTV paint section, and it has to be new in the past month or so. For whatever that's worth.


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