# Full frame replacement double hungs



## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

I am planning on tearing out my old set of 3 double hungs down to the studs and putting in Marvin wood clad ultimates. I was planning on doing a 3 wide unit factory mulled.
But now I am thinking of doing 3 separate windows with the mulls in between, to try to keep the traditional look of my old double hungs. This way I should be able to find a standard size that will fit. Anyone have any suggestions for me or what they would do in this situation? Obviously factory mulled would provide a tight window, but three separate windows would be easier to manage and probably cost less. Any help?

Thanks


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

As wide as those current mulls are, I would guess there is structure there now. If you remove it, you will not have a full header across the top, nor a continuous sill plate across the bottom. That would weaken the opening considerably and your new triple factory mulled unit will be carrying the weight of the opening across the top, without the support of a full sill plate across the bottom.... which it is not designed to do.

In your situation, I would go with three separate units.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

It looks like you already asked this exact same question in another thread....

http://www.diychatroom.com/f104/install-window-inserts-full-frame-replacements-255050/

The only thing you changed was the number of windows you are doing. Why start another thread??? :blink:


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

My initial questions in that thread was whether I should do inserts or full replacement. I felt like I needed a new thread for this question about whether to do 3 separate or one mulled unit. That never came up in the other thread. Plus the responses were kinda dwindling with that old thread.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Are those weight pockets between those mulls or is it structure? If they are weight pockets, then there is a header across the top of all three and very likely a full sill plate across the bottom as well.

If that's the case, then a 3-wide D/H unit with a factory re-enforced mull will work just fine. If not, see my first post in this thread.

Good luck with your project!


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Those mulls are weight pockets and there is a full header and sill plate. But what would be your suggestion: 3-wide double hung with factory mulled or 3 separate units- which is better?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

saxsquad29 said:


> Those mulls are weight pockets and there is a full header and sill plate. But what would be your suggestion: 3-wide double hung with factory mulled or 3 separate units- which is better?


It's more of a question of taste and convenience. Once you open it up, it can be insulated properly around the new windows. In the case of individual windows, you will need to add structure where the weight pockets are now. If you use one mulled together window, you will need 3 or 4 people to get it in. In either case, the end result will be a better condition for heat retention.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

How much room for error is allowed so that the nailing fins have framing to adhere to? The reason I ask is because I am looking at ordering in a standard size 25-1/4x59-1/2 (frame size). My current frame height is 60" with the rough opening height probably 61-1/2". Will I get by with this standard size at 59-1/2" or is the nailing fin not going to have any framing member to adhere to?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

saxsquad29 said:


> How much room for error is allowed so that the nailing fins have framing to adhere to? The reason I ask is because I am looking at ordering in a standard size 25-1/4x59-1/2 (frame size). My current frame height is 60" with the rough opening height probably 61-1/2". Will I get by with this standard size at 59-1/2" or is the nailing fin not going to have any framing member to adhere to?


There is no, "probably" in the job. You don't order anything until you know exactly what the size of the opening is. You open whatever you need to open to know those measurements. Failure to do, due diligence in this can be very expensive.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ron6519 said:


> There is no, "probably" in the job. You don't order anything until you know exactly what the size of the opening is. You open whatever you need to open to know those measurements. Failure to do, due diligence in this can be very expensive.


The size of the opening is 84" x 61-1/2" I am sure of that. My question is will I be able to order a standard frame size of 25-1/2" x59-1/2" (x3) given my RO height is 61-1/2". Will the nailing fins be able to attach to framing members given the 2" difference in height?


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ron6519 said:


> There is no, "probably" in the job. You don't order anything until you know exactly what the size of the opening is. You open whatever you need to open to know those measurements. Failure to do, due diligence in this can be very expensive.


So if my RO height is 61-1/2" and window frame size of new window is 59-1/2" height
Would I just be able to add some framing to the existing sill and header to fill it in?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Jeez.... just order the size windows you need to fit the opening. The difference in standard versus custom sizing isn't enough to worry about. You'll spend more time and effort adding "framing and fill" just to get a little cheaper price and then have a job that looks like crapola IMHO.

Just my $0.02, YMMV, FWIW and all that.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Jeez.... just order the size windows you need to fit the opening. The difference in standard versus custom sizing isn't enough to worry about. You'll spend more time and effort adding "framing and fill" just to get a little cheaper price and then have a job that looks like crapola IMHO.
> 
> Just my $0.02, YMMV, FWIW and all that.


It is really just an inch more on the top and bottom. My current windows are 60" height in that opening and they look just fine.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

saxsquad29 said:


> It is really just an inch more on the top and bottom. My current windows are 60" height in that opening and they look just fine.


You can do whatever you want. An "inch more at the top and bottom" would not be acceptable to me. Obviously my "order the correct size" isn't what you want to hear. So get whatever size you want and fill 'em up with whatever you want. It may look "just fine" to you. If it does, then great.

But, once again.... it's my "opinion" as a professional contractor.... do the job right and order the correct size windows for your opening.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Do not frame them in. 

There isn't any real upcharge for "custom" sizes when it comes to windows. Doors...yes.

I agree with Complete. Order the right size and be done with it.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Do not frame them in.
> 
> There isn't any real upcharge for "custom" sizes when it comes to windows. Doors...yes.
> 
> I agree with Complete. Order the right size and be done with it.


I do really value everyone's professional opinion and knowledge on this board. It has helped me immensely so far. Getting the correct size for the opening makes sense to me so that is what I will do. I would like windows on wash's opinion on whether I should install 3 separate double hungs or a 3-wide double hung factory mulled. I would like to keep the look of the mull spaces that is why I am considering 3 separate windows. I've got a 1923 craftsman bungalow so I'm afraid that the 3-wide double hung with no exterior mulls would look out of place. What has been your experience with this?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

saxsquad29 said:


> So if my RO height is 61-1/2" and window frame size of new window is 59-1/2" height
> Would I just be able to add some framing to the existing sill and header to fill it in?


Yes, you can fill in to get the recommended RO. Each manufacturer will list the required RO sizes you need for the window.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Based on the width, I would not delete the mulls. They are, often times even when not intended to be, functioning as structural members.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Based on the width, I would not delete the mulls. They are, often times even when not intended to be, functioning as structural members.


So if it were you replacing this window you would go the 3 separate window route and put 2x4" s in place of the existing mulls.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Probably. That is a pretty large span to cover without knowing what is in there.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Post #2 explains why...


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Probably. That is a pretty large span to cover without knowing what is in there.


Marvin recommends a type III sill pan with some type of cedar wedge underneath to allow water to drain. Is this something that you normally install or does anyone have any recommendations as far as sill pans and what they install?


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

So I am trying to measure the jamb depth. I have 1/2"/drywall and exterior sheathing is no more than 1/2", but my 2x4s are all over the place. Generally they are between 3-1/4 to 3-3/4" in width. No two studs are the same width. I have got a left side jack stud of 3-3/4" and the right is 3-1/4". This is an old house (1921), does anyone have any experience with the old houses and how to get the proper size window jambs when the studs are all different?


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## ACWindows (Oct 1, 2014)

Throwing my two cents in to say that, like others, I would go the 3 separate window route. The reasons others have stated are sound.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Probably. That is a pretty large span to cover without knowing what is in there.


There is a full header and sill plate. Those spaces between the windows(mulls), are the weight pockets. Nothing in them but the counterweights. You still think those weight pockets could be structure?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

If they are nothing more than weight pockets, then they are not structure. Remove all of the interior casing and weight pocket covers and make certain how everything is framed before making your decision on how to proceed.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

It looks like this old 3-wide double hung is nailed in directly to the studs but from the outside via a 3-4" wide wooden nailing flange/fin. From what I can see they cut out the exterior sheathing where this flange would go so the exterior trim sat flush with the exterior stucco. Has anyone dealt with this before? I can't just nail the new window fin directly to the studs without any sheathing beneath?? Hopefully this makes since.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

saxsquad29 said:


> It looks like this old 3-wide double hung is nailed in directly to the studs but from the outside via a 3-4" wide wooden nailing flange/fin. From what I can see they cut out the exterior sheathing where this flange would go so the exterior trim sat flush with the exterior stucco. Has anyone dealt with this before? I can't just nail the new window fin directly to the studs without any sheathing beneath?? Hopefully this makes since.


Well, you can do anything you want, but it doesn't make it necessarily right. 

So, what you are saying is.... these windows have been replaced before, now with a nailing flange, where they actually cut the sheeting to accommodate for the flange and stucco for some reason. I'm quite sure the windows utilizing the counter weights and weight pockets, did not have a nailing flange. 

I don't have eyes on the project so it is difficult to know exactly how the previous replacement windows were installed. You can only deal with what you have without getting into re-doing your stucco, which I'm sure you don't want to do. 

Your biggest challenge as I see it.... is to make absolutely certain however you install your new windows, that everything is properly sealed and flashed to account for the existing openings.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Well, you can do anything you want, but it doesn't make it necessarily right.
> 
> So, what you are saying is.... these are "replacement" windows with a nailing flange, where they actually cut the sheeting to accommodate the stucco for some reason. I don't have eyes on the project so it is difficult to know exactly how the previous replacement windows were installed.
> 
> You can only deal with what you have without getting into re-doing your stucco, which I'm sure you don't want to do. Your biggest challenge as I see it.... is to make absolutely certain however you install your new windows, that everything is properly sealed and flashed to account for the existing openings.


Actually these are the existing double hungs with sash weights from 1921. This wooden flange around the exterior is about 3/4" thick. My concern is when I remove this window there will be no sheathing where the jack studs are as this wood flange was attached directly to the jack studs. I just want to know if anyone has come across this situation and what their process was.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

This picture is looking at the top of double hung with the upper sash pulled down. You can see that the exterior stops are just part of that exterior wood flange -if this makes sense.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

is this pic from the inside or outside? A "nailing flange" would be on the outside. I can't really tell what I'm loking at. I can't see enough to really understand it.

Sorry....


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> is this pic from the inside or outside? A "nailing flange" would be on the outside. I can't really tell what I'm loking at. I can't see enough to really understand it.
> 
> Sorry....


The pic is from the inside but up top you can see the flange that is nailed in from exterior and serves as the sheathing for the weight pockets


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

What are you calling a flange?

This is a nailing flange up against the sheeting on the outside of the house....


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> What are you calling a flange?
> 
> This is a nailing flange up against the sheeting on the outside of the house....


The whole 3-wide double hung has an integrated frame around the whole unit (like a picture frame). It is this frame which is about 3/4" thick that is attached to the exterior studs on all 4 sides. So it looks like a nailing flange only that it is wood and is 3/4" thick and about 3-4" wide around the perimeter.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

saxsquad29 said:


> The whole 3-wide double hung has an integrated frame around the whole unit (like a picture frame). It is this frame which is about 3/4" thick that is attached to the exterior studs on all 4 sides. So it looks like a nailing flange only that it is wood and is 3/4" thick and about 3-4" wide around the perimeter.


Does this make sense to anyone?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

saxsquad29 said:


> This picture is looking at the top of double hung with the upper sash pulled down. You can see that the exterior stops are just part of that exterior wood flange -if this makes sense.


Yes, this makes sense. I have the same setup. Older windows(mine are from 1949) had wood "flanges", that were nailed to the framing. The wood sheathing was brought up against the window flange, The wood flange became the frame the aluminum storm windows were attached to.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ron6519 said:


> Yes, this makes sense. I have the same setup. Older windows(mine are from 1949) had wood "flanges", that were nailed to the framing. The wood sheathing was brought up against the window flange, The wood flange became the frame the aluminum storm windows were attached to.


So when I go ahead and remove these I am going to have a gap around the perimeter where there isn't sheathing. Is there a better way to tear out this window that you can share? Is there a standard practice that comes with tearing out these old windows and installing the new one. Obviously I will need sheathing around the perimeter but would I be able to cut the window out, thereby leaving the wood "flange" acting as the sheathing??


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

saxsquad29 said:


> So when I go ahead and remove these I am going to have a gap around the perimeter where there isn't sheathing. Is there a better way to tear out this window that you can share? Is there a standard practice that comes with tearing out these old windows and installing the new one. Obviously I will need sheathing around the perimeter but would I be able to cut the window out, thereby leaving the wood "flange" acting as the sheathing??


The wood is securely attached to the framing. I just cut it back far enough so I can use it as a nailer for the new window flange. On my house the wood was about 3 1/2" wide. I cut it back to about 1 1/2" and the Andersen window fit in fine. I also filled in the two sides, inside, to give the wood flange support. The top was cut back as well, even with the header so no fill in was required.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ron6519 said:


> The wood is securely attached to the framing. I just cut it back far enough so I can use it as a nailer for the new window flange. On my house the wood was about 3 1/2" wide. I cut it back to about 1 1/2" and the Andersen window fit in fine. I also filled in the two sides, inside, to give the wood flange support. The top was cut back as well, even with the header so no fill in was required.


But the new nailing flange should be nailed at the studs, right? Not just to the flange?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Ok.... so what you are calling a "flange" is the trim around the windows on the exterior. It acts just like and does the same job basically, as your interior casing. For installation purposes, you need to remove it. Once you do, you will see the rough framing where your windows are now installed, just like you can see the studs, header and sill when you remove the interior casing.

Once you have the trim removed, install your windows, then cut the trim you removed, to the new width you need and re-install it.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Ok.... so what you are calling a "flange" is the trim around the windows on the exterior. It acts just like and does the same job basically, as your interior casing. For installation purposes, you need to remove it. Once you do, you will see the rough framing where your windows are now installed, just like you can see the studs, header and sill when you remove the interior casing.
> 
> Once you have the trim removed, install your windows, then cut the trim you removed, to the new width you need and re-install it.


Here is one of the double hungs with the left side trim removed. Here you can clearly see this wood flange that is nailed into the studs. I did have the storm window off and this flange goes all the way around. The storm window you can see is just to the right


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Well, like I said earlier, I don't have actual eyes on the thing so it's difficult to see exactly what's going on there with just a couple of pics. In the picture above, you say that's your prime D/H window, yet in the next sentence you say I can see the storm window is just to the right.

I don't get it.... am I looking at a frame under the gray trim that the _original prime_ window is attached to or am I looking at the _storm window_? To me it looks like a storm window.

If it's the storm, then remove it, then remove that wood frame and trim to size, re-install it, install your windows, flash correctly and re-install the grey trim.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

CompleteW&D said:


> Well, like I said earlier, I don't have actual eyes on the thing so it's difficult to see exactly what's going on there with just a couple of pics. In the picture above, you say that's your prime D/H window, yet in the next sentence you say I can see the storm window is just to the right.
> 
> I don't get it.... am I looking at a frame under the gray trim that the _original prime_ window is attached to or am I looking at the _storm window_? To me it looks like a storm window.
> 
> If it's the storm, then remove it, then remove that wood frame and trim to size, re-install it, install your windows, flash correctly and re-install the grey trim.


That is the storm window which is attached to the double hung frame just behind it. That frame is part of the whole 3 wide double hung unit and serves as the "flange" holding it to the studs. Once I remove the window the "flange" or frame will come with it and I will have a gap there.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Gotcha.... You can get some PVC trim boards (whatever thickness you need) x whatever width you need and "re-frame" the opening, so that you match up with your exterior sheeting. Attach your new window to your new PVC framing, flash properly and then cut (as needed) and install your grey trim.

You can buy PVC trim boards almost anywhere. Most will stock 3/4" thick boards in 4" and 6" widths. Which you can easily rip to whatever requirements you have. You might have to order 1/2" thick boards if that's the thickness you need though.


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for your response. Could I use plywood instead? Those PVC trim boards are nice but costly only to be covered up by my exterior trim


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## saxsquad29 (Mar 29, 2015)

3 double hungs coming in hopefully today. The temps here in ND are in the upper 20's. Are these the best conditions for installing full replacement windows? Or should this wait until spring?
I don't want moisture to get in the walls and have problems down the line.


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