# Need to change my electrical panel? 2nd opinion needed



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Yes. A picture is needed. I have no clue what he means by a 15, or a 20, unless he is talking about the breaker.
I'm thinking he is trying to take you for a ride.
He should explain this fully so you understand what is being replaced and why.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Agreed we need a picture(s) good ones btw with the panel cover off (be careful)...he might mean by "doubled" that several single pole breaker are individually protecting 2 circuits ...this may or may not be an issue. We need a picture to be sure. I have no clue what he meant by "normally a circuit handle up to five more". Thats sorta a fishy statement. However none of the things said add up to a panel upgrade or service upgrade... whatever they meant.

Stubbie


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Thank you for the insight. As for the "5 more", he said since the switches are '15' (amps?), that you can load with up to 5 amps more.

Here are some pictures, let me know if you need more. Thank you!


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

The panel looks new. Are there any open slots for more circuits? How many amps is the current service (The breaker at the top of the panel)?



I_have_questions said:


> I had an electrician in here last week to change a plug outlet (the one for the fridge, it was in the middle of the wall for some reason), and when he was here, he said I need to change the entire panel in the basement.


I wonder if this analagous to taking your car in for a simple oil change and find out that "you're lucky to still be alive" with the brakes in the condition that they are in.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Clutchcargo, I think you're right about the oil change, lol.

The panel does look new to me, too. Yes, there are open slots for more circuits, there are 7. The amps....200.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Does the fridge share the same circuit with the lights? If so, I would say you just need a different electrician running a dedicated 20AMP circuit to the fridge.


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## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

How I am reading this he must be talking about your breaker. When he said you have a 15 I assume he means a 15A breaker and that 20 is common he means a 20A breaker.

When he said he would have to leave it as a 15 he probably saw that your wire size is only 14 gauge so they can't change it to a 20A breaker because 14 is not rated for 20A.


How much was his estimate for, you give us this number and we can tell you if he wants to change the panel or just the one breaker.

If this is how the guy explained it to you I would run the other way and find someone who can explain it alot better for you.

Darren


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

He definitely said the whole panel, and quoted $1200 for it. I'm thinking it's best for me to run in the other direction, it's really not making sense. Especially since the rep also said nothing about a line only for the fridge, and I did ask about that.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

BTW, thank you all so much for the input, this is great, I appreciate it!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

" I have question "

there are few issue did come up when i was reading this and i rather say it did raise few questions here,.. so bear with me a min 

1) did you say the refridgeator draw [ running ] at 18.4 amps ?? i was not sure because it got my attetion because with this much that gotta be a very large or commercal sized frige noramally majorty of resdentail [ home ] fridge dont draw that much current useally from 3 to 8 amp depending on what kind it is.

2) the person whom gave ya the qoute is not too far off from the point but let me expain little bit my main conderation that that box is pretty much full unless i know the box label [ it will be on the breaker box door it will tell like this QOM1002040 [this number is a example not a real one ] and that type of breaker it is a QO series breaker but the single pole breaker with two handles that style is a older type of QOT breaker.

there is 2 verison of that type of breaker [ i will leave this part alone for now ]

but there are some case you can add subfeed box if the load is not very hevey but really you should get at least 2 or 3 estames from diffrent EC to summit the bid.

anytime you add the circuit to the breaker box somecase you have to bring it up the code if breaker box or fuse box is very crowed or not safe.

but best case is have two other ec come out and take a look at it.

i dont know if you did spot one breaker it look like allready tripped 

if you have more question post it here 

Merci , Marc


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Bonjour, Marc,

The 18.4 is (what I was told), the circuit with the fridge, and microwave. It's a standard house-type fridge.

I booked another EC to come in next week for another opinion on this, and oddly enough, when I told them what it was for, they asked "Was it X Enterprise that told you that?", and sure enough, it was.

Im heading out right now, but when I get back I'll post that number you're looking for.

Merci! (Are you in Montreal?)


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Can't find that number for you, Marc, sorry.

One more question, if the panel is a "15", is it normal that the switches all have "20" on them? It's on the top part of each switch.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Clutchcargo said:


> Does the fridge share the same circuit with the lights? If so, I would say you just need a different electrician running a dedicated 20AMP circuit to the fridge.


I don't know for sure, but it is on the same as the microwave.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

""The 18.4 is (what I was told), the circuit with the fridge, and microwave. It's a standard house-type fridge."" 

Now that make sense.

if this circuit is wired with 14 gauge then you have to stay with 15 amp breaker.

but if the wire is 12 gauge then it can use the 20 amp breaker.

nomally majorty of kitchen circuits useally are on 20 amp.

a good electrician will check this circuit but one issue is that when some pepole or former owners whom did the work on the wiring and they used the intermix size and we have to stay with the " weak " link.

the example is if you have mixed bag of 14's and 12's the breaker size will determed by smallest wire size it run.
{ the 14 gauge is smaller than 12gauge is }

the microwave oven useally take pretty good percent of power they can be on the normal kitchen circuit.

the fridge it can be on it own circuit [ genrally a wise idea ]

Merci , Marc 

Desole je pas habite de Montreal mais habite de Wisconsin , Merci
[sorry i dont live in Montreal but live in Wisconsin , Thanks]


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I_have_questions said:


> Can't find that number for you, Marc, sorry.
> 
> One more question, if the panel is a "15", is it normal that the switches all have "20" on them? It's on the top part of each switch.


 
ok ,, if you see the breaker labled say " 15 " that mean the breaker is rated for 15 amp and if you see the label say " 20 " that mean 20 amp the same with other size as well.
the amprating is stamped on the handle so you cant miss that.

i did look at the photo and i think you have the 2040 box which it mean 20 space full size and 40 duplex or twin breaker but if you can take the photo of the whole box then i can able tell ya real quick 

Merci , Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Je habite de Kansas..... I live in Kansas...Ok got it.....Now, how do I say "Where do I get a beer"....thanks Marc thats pretty cool---:thumbsup:

Hey ! ! I think you need to give me some more lessons. I just tried my new French abilities on this cute little french lady down the street and she slapped the morning dew off me.

Stubbie


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's a pic of the whole panel. BTW, I checked all switches, and they show "20", with the exception of the two new ones that show "15". One is for the pool motor, and the other is for an outside plug. (What is up with that black burn mark??)


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Ok now i can see more clear that is 30 space box.

you have room to add a new circuit there but that type of box that look " new " that breaker style that been there at least 30 years because i can tell what type of wire it goes in the box.

it will be wise to have other electrican to come out and run new fridge circuit they can add on to that box but IMO without the paper on the inside of breaker box door that miss the key info in there but some time they will say 30/40 on it anyway that the main moot point there and it really a wise idea to mark down all the circuits where they run because someday it will really save your rearend [ you know what i mean ] .

right now i did count the the breaker total count it came up with 38 "handles" note that the double poles are count as 2

but with some breaker with the tie in what you see with red or white wire between two breakers some area it will raise red flag in some place and that have to get fix up to the code but really my best advise to you is have a local electrician in your area do the proper way and i am sure that electrician will advise the sisuation if that allowed in the code 

for the burn mark that is pretty instering mistery there unless something shorted out behind the panel cover which i doubt 

i noted the fuse box on the right side of the breaker box that is pretty odd for this set up anyway a good electrician can check out the system and see where it go from there 

typcally most 200 amp box useally come in either 30 or 40/42 space box with main breaker the new box will take far less room than what you have with it and the main breaker inside the box you dont have to worry about 200 amp fuse [ not very many big box store will stock this size fuse btw ]

if you have more question let us know 
Merci , Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> Je habite de Kansas..... I live in Kansas...Ok got it.....Now, how do I say "Where do I get a beer"....thanks Marc thats pretty cool---:thumbsup:
> 
> Hey ! ! I think you need to give me some more lessons. I just tried my new French abilities on this cute little french lady down the street and she slapped the morning dew off me.
> 
> Stubbie


 
Ok you ask for it  ,, LOL

here it is "" Où je peux obtenir la bière ? "" :whistling2:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok that's great I'll try it next time I need it up your way or Canada. But if I get slapped again I'm coming to look for ya.....:wink:


Marc.... I'm glad you knew something about that panel cause I'm unfamiliar with it. But what really got me with this is the panel next to the breaker panelboard. If my memory serves me the last time I saw something like that in a home it was a manual service rated transfer switch. Had a diesel generator for emergency standby power. Just a guess though.

Do you know what that black wire is on the left of the panel? I ask because I just ran across some of this stuff in a 1950'ish home just recently. No ground in it just two hot wires. It was going to an old outlet/receptacle that had this configuration ++ for the cord plug. Never seen it before.

Also this panel can take 60 circuits?? Is that right? 

I agree he has 38 handles now... using those old style QOT's.

I'm scratchin my head a little on this one. It reminds me of a commercial column panelboard but its too wide.

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Subbie the panel on left side is the Main fuse they are pretty big arse box and they have 200 amp run of mill fuses and that breaker box is main lug box that why they put the main fuse in the left side and you dont see not too many 200 *fused* disconnect switch for resdentail useage.

i just have one changed very simuair to this set up and one of fuse clip did got just about red hot due loose connection and replaced with 200 amp breaker box and slove all the issuse with it.

60 circuits ?? i will say  insane but very instering twist that our great northen guys allready have bigger box than us they have up to *84* yeah not a misprint 84 space box just like two 42's but all in one.

i think i am not sure but i heard somewhere but i dont have the dricet source but they say starting in 08 code cycle they will take the 42 limit off but the catch is that some state will try delay this [ the reason why change because of AFCI ]

stubbie some of the older wire you descrbine is the early romax they did used the tw insluation mateals on that and yeah no ground that was instering and i did see alot of home with bootleg ground [ i will leave this to separted thread so we dont get way off the track for the OP]

but the instering thing with this breaker box it really suprised me i dont know how they can add that many cirucit in that small box.

yeah with non ctl QOT verison dont have a cam on the bottom of the breaker that why it can really load up many but IMO that is pretty messy when you have alot of empty slot it can be used.

the newer QO boxes on 20/30 and 20/40 verison they have a slot for it and it will be located on lower half of the bussbar area and also the QOT new style have slightly diffrnt shape so it will only go in cenrten spots as well 

stubbie i know what you talking about commercal coloum panel board they are useally are bolt in type and they are 20 inch wide if i recall it right 

Merci , Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Marc.... You have really been around!!! I figured that was most likely a fused disconnect but man it was hard for me to accept that in a residence! the handle for the blades inside sorta make you realize its fused but whew that is one big disconnect enclosure.

Thanks for all the detail I cut a piece of that black wire for my collections of antique electrical stuff. sorta reminds you of UF. And your right it is TW rated insulation.

thanks Marc


Stubbie


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

I've actually never seen the box on the left open. I was told it was a main junction box.

The black wire on the side that Stubbie asked about are the two new ones, one for the pool motor, one for an outdoor plug. These are the two that I mentioned were the only '15' switches on this panel.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Well I'm not familiar with that black cable if it was recently installed it needs to have three wires in it one of them a ground wire so you might want to look inside the outside outlet and make sure that stuff has a ground wire. Especially if it serves a pool motor. And it needs to be an insulated ground wire on the one going to the pool motor.

I see no reason to change out that panel. 

Anyway lets get back to your dimming kitchen lights. Are these the only lights dimming in the house? 

How bad is the dimming?

How long does it last .... several seconds, minutes or just briefly? 

Stubbie


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Stubbie...

Kansas ......population 237,....ooopppssss 239...young girl just had twins ....
GOD's country ...... GOD created Kansas ......
so there could be a place for the tornadoes to call home....

Take Care.....and button down the hatches....actually...button down everything....


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

ok ,,, if the light dimmed breifly each time the mircowave oven go on or the refridgeator go on ?? or other hevey load go on like A/C or other hevey load using devices?

as Stubbie saying when the light stay dim for while etc ??

some area it may be normal to have light get dimmed very breifly due some electic motor start up or start up fast with hevey load like microwave 


really there is no reason to replace the breaker box as long you dont go over *42* circuit limit but one issuse is the box the paper on the door it should have a marking and also the describiation what circuit where it goes like one breaker for light second breaker for kitchen third one for bedroom fourth for bathroom etc etc ,,, that should really help alot in case you need to shut off something for good reason like work on light switch need to fixed etc ,,

but there one thing i overlooked but i dont know if you feel confortable with this,, if you can remove the front cover and look on either side of inside of breaker box there will be a label as well ,.. i was not thinking for a min sorry about that some breaker box will do that as a " backup paper " or info 

if you not confort just dont do it.

Merci, Marc


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Anyway lets get back to your dimming kitchen lights. Are these the only lights dimming in the house?
> 
> How bad is the dimming?
> 
> ...


It's a half-second dimming. The fridge motor starts up, the lights in the kitchen dim for a split second then go back to normal.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> really there is no reason to replace the breaker box as long you dont go over *42* circuit limit but one issuse is the box the paper on the door it should have a marking and also the describiation what circuit where it goes like one breaker for light second breaker for kitchen third one for bedroom fourth for bathroom etc etc ,,, that should really help alot in case you need to shut off something for good reason like work on light switch need to fixed etc ,,
> 
> but there one thing i overlooked but i dont know if you feel confortable with this,, if you can remove the front cover and look on either side of inside of breaker box there will be a label as well ,.. i was not thinking for a min sorry about that some breaker box will do that as a " backup paper " or info
> 
> ...


Found the original paper, It shows: QO LOAD QO-30-40 120/240V AC. 225 APM. MAINS Series T2 1PH. 3W. S/N By the "Square D" company (in Canada).

Again, thanks so much for your help everyone.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The fridge is on the same circuit with the kitchen light. It's load on the circuit when the compressor starts is dimming your light. Once it falls back to running amps after starting your lights get the voltage they need to go back to normal 
This is caused by voltage drop when the compressor starts and requires a bunch of current breifly to get the compressor going. It's normal. to solve this just run a 20 amp circuit to the fridge and dedicate it.

Will this be hard to do in your case?

I'm leaving the panel to Marc he knows it better than I do in this case.


Stubbie


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> to solve this just run a 20 amp circuit to the fridge and dedicate it.
> 
> Will this be hard to do in your case?
> 
> ...


I have no clue. Does that involve having to have access from the kitchen to the basement to get at the wire? Thanks!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

JGARTH:

The tornadoes are no big deal if you drive a ford F-350 duelly. I just point it at them and hit the accelerator. It's sorta like when a grizzly bear is charging you. One of two things will happen it will either turn and run or keep coming and try to kill you. So far I'm still alive but I've been through several trucks.:wink:


Stubbie


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes you have to install a breaker in that panel or one that is already installed and not being used. So you need to get a wire cable from the panel to the fridge outlet.
I would just get an electrician and tell him that's what you want done period.

But what is happening is normal with the dimming lights...did you just install a new fridge is this something that is new?

If the breaker never trips then I would say your safe leaving it as is, unless the cost to get a circuit ran to eliminate it is worth it to you.

Stubbie


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Stubbie,
I'm glad you still around. I find your comments here very worthwhile.

So, is it true....Kansas is up to population 239 now with those twins ...

Take Care...


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I_have_questions said:


> Found the original paper, It shows: QO LOAD QO-30-40 120/240V AC. 225 APM. MAINS Series T2 1PH. 3W. S/N By the "Square D" company (in Canada).
> 
> Again, thanks so much for your help everyone.


 
Can I jump in? The breaker limit in the U.s.(which will change in 08) is 42, but...only three phase panels come with 42 spaces. The "realistic" limit for single phase is forty circuits which is what the OP has (30 spaces with room at the bottom of the panel for tandem breakers). The wiring looks old but the panel looks new IMHO. The panel is hopefully in the basement??? With the kitchen one floor above???:whistling2: If this is the case it's a pretty simple job to add the necessary circuits to fix your problem. Under no circumstances do you need a new panel to replace your already relatively new panel. Thanks for lettin me jump in! Marc and stubbie, GREAT JOB!!:yes: 



PS: Square D QO breakers are available at any home center, so don't let anybody tell you different. This is a very common and adequate panel.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

You guys are amazing, thank you so much for your input! Another EC is supposed to come by early in the week, I'll post an update here. 

Stubbie, the fridge is new (bought last week), from what I was told at least the fridge, and the outlet for the microwave are on the same circuit. I was running the microwave, and a stand mixer on that one outlet and the fridge compressor came on all at the same time the other day, and nothing blew. Not even the cake, ha ha! 

AndyInATL, the panel is in the basement, one floor under the kitchen.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

One floor seperation makes for easier job for the sparky:thumbsup: I scanned the whole thread again and I didn't see where you mentioned what year the house was built. I'm guessing from the wiring I see 1955:huh: Do I get a cookie if I guessed right?:yes: Without shifting breakers around in the panel at all, you can fit fourteen more single pole circuits (120V) in your panel. Once you find a contractor you can trust I'd give him free reign to bid on what he thinks and have him do the work that you can afford. Assuming I'm right(or even freakin close)on the age of your house, don't be discouraged with the way it is wired. I'm sure it was done correctly BACK THEN. Best of luck and we all want to hear what the next Electrical Contractor has to say.


Edit to add: Something was bugging me about the pic of the panel on page two. It's hung "upside down" so all the tandem breakers go at the top of the panel. I'm 90%? sure I'm right here. No big deal, you still have 7 spaces for new single pole circuits and if you do need ALL 14 circuits than it shouldn't take an average sparky more than an hour or two to rearrange everything to facilitate that.


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

It was built in 1967. Interesting point, too, is that I had an inspector here last week (renewing my insurance policy) and he had to check the house inside and out. He spent a lot of time on each thing that he had to check, and said nothing about the panel being old, or anything about the wiring.

So, to sum everything up, you guys all agree that the panel is most likely fine, if anything, I'd get a circuit just for the fridge, correct?


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Fridge for sure. If I had the cash I'd have the contractor bring the kitchen up to code. That is totally your call. Also if the microwave is on the same ciruit I'd seperate that also. Bringing the kitchen up to code would solve all of it. Then again i'm an electrician so my brain instinctively goes that way:laughing: In most if not all jurisdictions you are under no obligation to bring any thing up to code that is not in the scope of work.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Andy I think your right......the same thing was bugging me. Tandems all at the top....??? I don't think that panel is code in the Usa??? I think it must be a Canadian make... so I'm not sure if the dang thing won't take tandems all through it. Most Square d's are configured to take them only in the bottom half or so in US as you already know.

Come to think of it has the op ever said if he is in the Usa or Canada? Probably did but......not sure... so will have to go back and check. 

Even if that panel is upside down and I think it is because they wanted to feed it at the bottom left side with a short nipple out of the disconnect. So they put the main lugs in that configuration. I would sure like to see inside both panels. But OP probably better leave well enough alone but hope he takes some pictures of it when they have the cover off and show us at a later date....hint,hint..

Good suggestion for getting the microwave on a separate circuit while they are doing the fridge. Doing the whole kitchen will take some bucks most likely if hired done. He has some issues with that though cause he is nearing max number of handles as you mentioned.

Stubbie


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I think I Have Questions is located in Canada.
Some of the advice we are giving may not relate.
I do not think they have the 40 circuit max that we have in the US.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah I think you may be right. Only thing I see is that he did mention the panel shows it was "made in canada" which is where square d is home based I believe.

Well I believe they have to put 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits and 15 on 15 amp circuits... no 15 on 20 amps. I got no idea what their kitchen codes are though.

Anyway, he isn't too fond of electricity and is hiring a contractor/electrician so it should work out for him.

Stubbie


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## questionsforya (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi Stubbie, I'm in Canada, and I'm a 'she'. :yes: 

I should have the electrician here on (hopefully) Monday. If he takes the panel off, I'll snap a pic and post with what he tells me needs to be done.

You guys are amazing, thanks again!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

He He stubbie gotcha anyway i was supsecting habite de cananda :whistling2: 
the cananda codes for breakerbox is diffrent than usa verison so she should have no issues with it 

Merci , Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Sorry Maam... I'm glad I'm a thousand miles away I'd get slapped again...:blush:


Hey Frency !!! I would appreciate that you not withhold valuable information in the future.:boxing:

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Moi ??? :whistling2: :whistling2: 


i am sure we like to see the photo of that breaker box and the mess in there if one there.



Sorry stubbie i was too tempting to tell ya but OP is a lady you should catch it on the forum


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hey.. I know lots of men named Lori......eerrr ....well maybe I've just heard of them. Oh boy...Ou je peus obtenir la biere

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

:wheelchair: to :drink: ???? ya ready stubbie ???


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cheers


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie :: i will shake your hand you sure did put up good challange with me.

Merci , Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Always a pleasure have a good evening

Stubbie


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

you guys crack me up...any way you shake it the panel she(good to know, i'll have to amend my coarse humor:whistling2: )has is a common 30 space 40 circuit panel. Only the bottom five spaces(in her case top) will take the tandems. I know this because I once worked with a contractor who used this exact panel. I'm off to bed now, just got in from a building shutdown at GA TECH that started 10PM last night ind ended 11AM this morning. My eyes are crossed!:huh:


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## DuncanB (Sep 18, 2007)

Why not try this? Shut off the breakers one at a time. (Carry a flashlight). See which one shuts the lights in question off. Of course, turn the others back on as you gpen the refrigerator door and see if the light inside comes on. It may be or might not be on the same circuit, if the fridge light is off, it's on the same one. Simple, safe, and not just conjecture.

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One of Square D's advertised features is that the QO panels can be rotated 180°. You can also rotate or remove the interior with two hexnuts. There is no bottom and no top.

The QO tandem breakers in question may have been made before 1967, when there wasn't any circuit limiting rejection mechanism required. You could load as many tandems as you wanted in a panel. SqD added the rejection feature in '67, and this "piggy back" style of breakers were only manufactured until '81. None of them seem to have the Visi-trip window, this is probably an old panel.

SquareD has had their HQ in the US for over 100 years.Now located in Pallatine Ill.; it was previously in Detroit, then Chicago. 

Andy, 
Your 10PM to 11AM shutdown really MUST have beat you up! You posted your reply at 10:35, nearly half an hour before you got off !:wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Duncan.. thats interesting. Lori is going to get some pictures of the guts hopefully. Anyway, I also thought it was an old panel that just looks in real good shape. I am most familiar (commercially speaking) with Square d column panels as that is what we had at my job with Ford before we (nearly 13000 of us) retired. I was thinking that when they were bought by schnieder electric they moved to Canada, but my memory ain't so good these days. Wow! 100 years is a long time for a company these days. Their products always served us well. 
I hadn't realized we didn't verify the fridge on the circuit with the dimming light(s)..I thought she said it was but of course I also see your point regardless.

Like to ask you a question since we are on the subject of breakers....what does ctl stand for ? I'm thinking it was circuit total limiting but that just isn't sounding right to me.

Stubbie


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie let me fill you in with the QOT ctl breakers i have a link it will read in pdf file once you read it this will be found in lower right part of the PDF file it will stated pretty clear there 

http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/174/html/sections/07/17407010.html

here is the link ,.. enjoy it 

Merci , Marc


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm finally up--My post times are EST so I actually posted in Atlanta at 11:35 AM. Duncan, I hear what you are saying, but I doubt that the panel in question is more than ten years old and probably much less. Based on the age of the house the entire kitchen is likely to be limited to one or two circuits with a modern house having 8-10. This thread has been very informative and it will be interesting to see how it turns out.


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## DuncanB (Sep 18, 2007)

"I doubt that the panel in question is more than ten years old and probably much less."

:no:

It's also the wrong color, that bluish hue hasn't been around for a long time, neither have the steel handles like on the disconnect.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

You are probably right, wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. Hopefully she'll snap some pics when the new electrician comes...:thumbsup:


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## chriz b (Jan 30, 2009)

*2nd opion*



I_have_questions said:


> Hello, I've been having issues with my kitchen lights dimming when the fridge comes on. I had an electrician in here last week to change a plug outlet (the one for the fridge, it was in the middle of the wall for some reason), and when he was here, he said I need to change the entire panel in the basement. He said (bear with me, I know next to nothing about this stuff) that I currently have a "15", when the standard is a "20", and the current load on the fridge's circuit is 18.4, but that normally a circuit can handle up to 5 more.
> 
> I asked for an estimate, the rep came over and told me that it needs to be changed because of what the electrician said, and that the switches are 'doubled' (all I can think of is that some switches seem to have a 'peg' that ties two together), which is not to code, and that even with changing it, I still might have the light dimming issue because the fridge should be on its own circuit, and that since my wiring is "15", they'll just replace the panel with a "15", and not a "20".
> 
> ...


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## chriz b (Jan 30, 2009)

hi lori, Im a electrician and it seems to me the guys are FULL OF IT.. 
First of all that is true you need a 20 amp breaker with the right wiring to handle 20 amps.
But you dont need to change a panel to do that. They need to add you a 20 amp Dedicated circuit. ( should not cost more than 500. 00 at the most.. Alos I was thinking if your refrigerator is pulling 18 amps. then you just might need a new one seems kinda old to be doing that. I was woundering to if just the kitchen lights dim or all lights through out the house. I would say the only way I would change my panel is if it is a F.P.E. (federal pacific) Or Zinsco.. If it is one of these two. Seek help A.S.A.P
F.Y.I. : something in that case could also be a loose neutral either at the meter, panel, or simply the power company's Neutral on there end..But good luck


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Chris, you just dug up a post that is a year and a half old.


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