# Tile over asbestos tile?



## Brik

Is it a wood floor under or concrete? If wood floor I would leave them and put backer board over and then tile. If concrete under I would remove them and tile right on the concrete. Removal is, in my opinion, a DIY job. Just wear a dust mask and get on with it. If the old tiles go under things like water heater, etc, just leave them in that area if you do not feel up to moving that stuff. Even easier - Just carpet over them.


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## gone_fishing

It's over concrete.


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## Rehabber

This question is subject to great debate within the tile industry. I would tile over it with a quality modified thinset like Mapei's Ultraflex 2. Their spec sheet says it will adhere well to the tile. IMNTBHO


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## gone_fishing

I've been told to use thinset to put down Schluter Ditra mat then thinset for the tile. This the best method?


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## Rehabber

Do not use Ditra in this application. Ditra requires unmodified thinset and that will not adhere to the old tile


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## Jaz

You should remove the tiles and work off the slab. If you were hiring someone and they did work as you propose, I bet you'd be leery. A few hours of hard work and you'll be done. Normally I would say that it is possible to get a good enough bond over most vinyl tiles. The problem is you don't know if the vinyl tiles will remain stuck. Often what at first seems a well bonded floor, turns out not to be.

Also, those tiles of yours are not vinyl, they are asphalt tiles. I don't know of any thinset that specifically mentions asphalt tiles as an acceptable substrate to bond to. Even if they did I would be hesitant. 

Anyway, it's not as simple as you may think to go right over resilient tiles, even if it was ok to go over asphalt. Apparently you haven't read the instructions at www.schluter.com 

Jaz


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## Jaz

Rehabber,

You're wrong about the thinset. :no: I know it can be confusing, but if you're a professional and use the stuff it's really not all that hard to understand. Perhaps you haven't used Ditra much?

Download the Ditra manual and read the 32 pages.:thumbup: www.schluter.com 

Jaz


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## Rehabber

Jaz, I have read the manual, and Schluter DOES NOT recommend the use of modified thinset with Ditra. As far as using modified thinset on floor tiles, Mapei's ultraflex 2 or 3 adheres extremely well, and eliminates the asbestos hazard by encapsulation. Thats way better than the increased possibility of mesothelioma caused primarily by exposure to asbestos dust. IMNTBHO


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## Jaz

Maybe you read it but I'm not sure you understand what it says, or maybe why? There is no problem using modified thinset to install Ditra. Matter of fact YOU HAVE TO when the substrate calls for it such as plywood for example. OK, so what kind of thinset would you use over plywood? You simple misread and didn't really mean to say no modified to install Ditra?

If gone fishing decides to take a chance and install Ditra over his old resilient tiles, what thinset would you recommend? That answer is obvious.

Jaz


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## mike costello

The new floor will only be down as well as the exsiting. Thats an old floor I would not trust it to hold down my new tile. 
The cutback adhesive under the asphalt asbestos tiles crystallizes after a decade or two.

Have it abated.

To the guy that said removing asbestos tile is a DIY project...BAD ADVISE. Dont let Big Brother catch ya , your jobsite will be siezed, covered with a plastic bubble and youll be looking at serious fines.


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## mathias

I had an older house with these tiles in the kitchen area and Mike is correct, the adhesive under the asphalt asbestos tiles crystallizes and they pop loose. 

They need to be removed or you'll be sorry later.


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## Brik

mike costello said:


> The new floor will only be down as well as the exsiting. Thats an old floor I would not trust it to hold down my new tile.
> The cutback adhesive under the asphalt asbestos tiles crystallizes after a decade or two.
> 
> Have it abated.
> 
> To the guy that said removing asbestos tile is a DIY project...BAD ADVISE. Dont let Big Brother catch ya , your jobsite will be siezed, covered with a plastic bubble and youll be looking at serious fines.


 Yea, if you are really concerned. The moon suit approach has lost favor in recent years and the scare is minimized. 

First off - Asbestos is only a concern if its airborne. Second, its not a certainty that this tile contains asbestos. Even if it did contain asbestos it would be hard to make it airborne. If it is asbestos in the tile (or mastic) its encapsulated in the tile. Wear a dust mask, put a fan in a window. If your really concerned wear a respirator instead of a .99c mask. 

Bottom line - keep it simple - Tile over the concrete. Thats the right thing to do. No use discussing other options that might work. There is no question that the tile will stick to the concrete w/o doing anything special.


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## mathias

I don't think the space suit gig is needed; however, if I had tiled over my floor without removing the old before putting down the new, I would have been one unhappy camper. Just my 2 pennies worth.


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## mike costello

I agree to an extent. The stuff isnt toxic, its the finite shape of the dust that makes it stick to stuff like lung tissue. All the pros do is wet it down to keep the dust low.

Its getting caught disposing the stuff that will get you burned.

Goatta say, the stuff usually comes up easy..errr...so I heard


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## gone_fishing

Ok, if I decided to remove myself here would be my plan: 

1) Turn off heater
2) Tape plastic over heater vents 
3) Seal off rest of house
4) Soak tiles in a soap/water mixture
5) Wear some tyvek, gloves, respirator, and goggles (easy since I sell safety equipment) 
6) Use putty knife to remove tiles
7) Put into plastic bags and dispose of correctly. 

Look good? 

Next questions...what do I do with the glue or mastic that will likely be on the floor when I am done? Am I missing any steps? 

Funny thing is that when I worked for a contractor I remember removing a few houses worth of these tiles with nothing more than a scraper and sledge hammer.


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## mike costello

Figuretively of course.......Encapsulate it with Ardex Feather Finshsh, just a skim coat


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## Brik

gone_fishing said:


> Look good?


A little overkill in my book but no harm in being protected.


gone_fishing said:


> Next questions...what do I do with the glue or mastic that will likely be on the floor when I am done? Am I missing any steps?


As long as there is no loose mastic, and you cleaned, scraped well, you can just use thinset and set your tiles.



gone_fishing said:


> Funny thing is that when I worked for a contractor I remember removing a few houses worth of these tiles with nothing more than a scraper and sledge hammer.


Yea, I have done that too.
Oh, and you can still buy a similar tile. Its called VCT (Vinyl Composite Tile).


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## mathias

Don't worry about the glue residue. Just wipe it down real well so that its nice and clean and tile away.:thumbsup:


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## gone_fishing

I am REALLY torn here...besides not being able to find a plumber to reroute a gas pipe I need answers. 

1) If I sell the house in 5-7 years (game plan to get a bigger home) will I have trouble when it's obvious I removed the tiles? I cannot get under the heater nor behind it to remove the tiles. 
2) Can I seal the tiles then tile over top? The only spots that aren't 100% are on the edges behind the washer where I will have trim.
3) Any thing else?


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## Brik

gone_fishing said:


> I am REALLY torn here...besides not being able to find a plumber to reroute a gas pipe I need answers.
> 
> 1) If I sell the house in 5-7 years (game plan to get a bigger home) will I have trouble when it's obvious I removed the tiles? I cannot get under the heater nor behind it to remove the tiles.
> 2) Can I seal the tiles then tile over top? The only spots that aren't 100% are on the edges behind the washer where I will have trim.
> 3) Any thing else?


Lets step back a little - Can you provide a wide shot picture of the area to include the area with the gas pipe, heater, etc?

No problems selling the house per se. If it looks like a hack job then it could detract. Is this A new house for you? I guess I'm thinking just leave well enough alone. Clean and wax what you have and get goin fishin! 

Others have posted ^^^ up there ^^^ how you would go about tiling over. Its more than "sealing them", thats why others, like me, say remove them. PM me, I have some thoughts I do not want to share on the board at the moment.


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## gone_fishing

Brik...I can't PM until I hit 20 posts! haha...

We bought the house 2 years ago...it's my first house. 

You can email me at [email protected] to discuss options off of the board.


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## Genhawk21

For what it's worth, I just removed about 250 sf of asbestos/asphalt tile from my place, and it wasn't that big a deal. Now, I'm not an expert on asbestos abatement, so maybe it was a big mistake and I'll die of lung cancer. But I'm willing to take my chances. Here's how I did mine and it went fine:

I sealed off the area I was working on, opened the windows and shut off the furnace. I used a particulate air (purple) respirator, and segregated the clothes I wore while working on it. 

I popped the tiles up very gently using a 6" metal putty knife to minimize breakage. They came off the slab pretty easily. I double bagged the tiles in heavy bags and took them to the local hazmat center for disposal.

The black mastic I took off with bean-e-doo, which is harmless, keeps the area wet, and worked well enough. I found it worked better if I left it on overnight. Then I used the same 6" putty knife and an old dustpan to scrape up the goo and put it in an old paint can for disposal.

Finally cleaned all the oil and residue off the floor with TSP and water until the slab was clean. 

It came out very nicely, and wasn't too expensive. The bean-e-doo will run you about $40 per 150 sf depending on how thickly you put it on. Otherwise all it cost was the cost of the respirator, bags, and putty knife.

Once again I know nothing about asbestos abatement, and it's not illegal in my state to do it yourself. Just sharing how I chose to do it - I really couldn't stomach the idea of putting more floor over it and stomping it into a more powdery state for someone else to deal with years from now.

At the same time I didn't want to pay a whole bunch of money for someone to deal with non-friable asbestos.


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## gone_fishing

Here are more pictures...


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## gone_fishing




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## gone_fishing




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## gone_fishing

So, after reviewing the pictures the question remains...do I cover after sealing or remove as much as possible? I am not sure of the laws in Pa. I cannot track down anything online. My worry is that I remove now and when we go to sell we get caught and pay out the wazoo..
Thoughts?


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## Dedda

OH my these are the tiles I have in my house and I had them tested. Asbestos loaded indeed. I am now trying to figure out how to seal them in or remove them. Look up your city's local asbestos removal website


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## gone_fishing

Ok, decided to remove the tiles. Accidentally popped up one yesterday anyway. Here is my latest question...i will remove them next week and wet scrap up as much mastic as possible. Do I then use self level or thinset...let dry then tile? I need to frame out a door for the water heater and heater. 

Thanks!


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## tpgokie

*dry ice method*

If you decide to remove the asbestos tiles, I highly recommend using dry ice to freeze the tiles. Our tiles wouldn't budge. They were glued down with black mastic. I got about ten blocks of dry ice and laid them out on the floor, one per tile. I waited a couple of minutes and bingo! They popped right up in one peice. Not many asbestos particles to worry about since the tiles didn't break. I just kept rotating the blocks of ice until the job was done. Used a special thinset from one of the big box stores and laid new tiles right on top of the mastic (the mastic may have asbestos too). Be sure to ventalate the room well when using the dry ice so you don't get CO2 poisoning...open a couple of windows.


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## tpgokie

Just remove any loose mastic. They make thin sets so you can tile right over the mastic. The one we used was Mapei Ultraflex3.


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## Bud Cline

Is this project still waiting to be done?

Those tiles do (in fact) contain asbestos. In most cases you could first use a 'stripper' to prepare the tiles and leave them in place to tile over them with MODIFIED thinset.

The problem in this case is...*this room has moisture issues*. The tiles adhesion to the substrate has been compromised and I wouldn't advise installing ceramic over any of this existing tile.

Your state health department can advise you on proper removal and it may not require you to hire a pro. Some states allow the homeowners to remove and dispose of the asbestos tiles on their own. If proper procedures are followed this can be done safely.

_PS. *Schluter's DITRA* can be installed with modified thinset bottom and top. The recommendation however is to use MODIFIED THINSET to install the DITRA (Bottom) and UNMODIFIED THINSET to install the tile (Top) but this is only because using modified thinset to install porcelain tile can be problematic from a curing-time standpoint. There is nothing wrong with it otherwise._

Generally if you have the time to wait, modified thinset can be used all-around.:thumbsup: 

I dream that one day some of you "HANDYMAN TYPES"
would make a greater effort to understand the procedures used to install products and stop giving bad advice on DIY websites. There is plenty of schooling available to those that really want to know what they are talking about. To come to DIY forums and recommend baseless ideas is harmful to the DIY'er.


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## gone_fishing

Bud, yes...still in progress. I had plumbing and termite issues to content with. Ready to roll this weekend. Check my other thread and let me know your thoughts. 

The dry ice idea is intriguing. I think that the tiles will come up pretty easy but will get the dry ice as a backup.


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## Bud Cline

WHAT other thread you talking about g_f?

The dry ice thing has never delivered great results for me. I'll admit it's fun to play with but unless you have a lot of it and can keep it very flat it's tuff to work with I think.


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## gone_fishing

Bud...2 hours 15 minutes...all done, cleaned up and ready to move on! It was work to get the tiles up but I got them all. Encapsulated with 20# of Ardex Feather Finish. Thanks for your advice! I will post pictures later.


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## lagunasrfr

I went to a Home Depot tile lesson. The instructor said it is ok to tile over asphalt tiles if the asphalt tiles are well-attached and the floor is even. Remove wax, apply a bonding agent such as REDGARD MEMBRANE and then thinset and tile. I think this is the best way to go because if you remove the asphalt, even professionally, asbestos could float around for a long time.


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## Genhawk21

I just wonder what happens, years from now, when someone decides to remove the tile and up comes the asphalt stuck to the bottom of it? It'll have to be dealt with at some point, at the latest when the house is bulldozed.

I guess for me it depend on what I'm doing with the place, though. If it was my personal home, and I knew for sure I'd keep it until I died, maybe I'd go over the top of it. But anyplace that I'd use as a rental or possibly sell soon, I'd rather get it out of there.

Too much liability, imo, if the next person pops up the tile and asbestos is there, and you didn't disclose it when you sold (since obviously you'd know if you tiled over it).


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## Bud Cline

WHATEVER!

The RedGard wasn't at all necessary tho, you kinda got duped there.


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## mike costello

You may THINK this is the best way to go. But for my money im gonna listen to a tile guy with years and years of positive experience over a guy at HD that learned from a couple of hour seminar.

Tile is only as secure as what is underneath it. Even with all the precautions you mentioned, this job would still fail because the tile underneath is not fastened to the floor well.

The Redgaurd suggestion reeks to me of a sales ploy


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## lagunasrfr

It's a half-year cottage.


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## tgf40

*ditra or no ditra?*

I've got 9x9 probably asbestos vinyl tile with the black adhesive underneath on a concrete slab. Parts of the slab never had tile, but were painted.

From what I've read I should go return the mapei UF1 I bought and get instead a bag of mapei UF2. 

I was considering installing ditra over the black adhesive (that I now know to call cutback). Is it necessary? Is it helpful? Does it have any insulation value (Wisconsin concrete basement floors are cold)? Roughly how much does it cost per SF? What would be reasons that I would or wouldn't want to install it? There's no moisture problem. This is a basement in a house on the top of a hill where the soil is very sandy. So there's never flooding.

Or should I tile directly over the cutback with the Ultraflex 2?

I got some vague answers on another tile forum, just wondering what advice I'd get here.

Thanks!


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## Bailey123

Hello. I am new to this forum, and below I have asked for advice on my living room flooring dilemmas. 

In my living room, I have about the same tile as gone_fishing has (asphalt), and I have some questions about putting in different flooring. I have a concrete slab ranch built in the early 50s, and right now, there is carpet installed over the tile. I would like advice on my dilemmas and questions: Dilemma 1: Carpet is installed over the tile, and I would like to remove the carpet because I have dogs and cats and the carpet is constantly filthy from dirt and dog hair. The problem is the installers (someone from before I bought the house) nailed the tackstrips directly through tile into the cement floor, and when I try to pry up the tackstrips, it leaves some cracks and chips in the tile and cement-- how can I remove the tackstrips with the least amount of damage to the floor and the edge of the concrete slab?? Dilemma 2 - underneath the carpeting is this old tile. I do not want to remove it because it could be dangerous and costly to dispose of. So, once the carpet and tackstrips are removed, can I encapsulate the entire living room with something like garage floor epoxy?

Question -- I am looking for the best flooring recommendation for my situation -- 2 dogs, 2 cats, lots of dirt and water drops. I have a very limited budget so I will be installing the new flooring myself, so I was considering laminate and/or Allure from Home Depot. Does anyone have any better suggestions? People on this forum have made such negative comments about laminate and Allure, that I am almost out of options. I am about function more than prestige, so I am not looking for something fancy, just very budget sensitive, something neutral colored and attractive that is durable, easy to wipe up and doesn't hold odors.


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## Bailey123

Also, I do have laminate in my kitchen -- and it has held up very well considering the dogs -- one is a large dog. The previous owner did not splurge on laminate, and after researching the brand and style of the leftover box, I know it is not top quality. 

Also -- when walked over by dogs, does all laminate make them sound like horse hooves??? I don't like the loud clicking, and I figured the previous owner put all the laminate down in the the kitchen and hallway without underlayment. It does appear they used a moisture barrier -- I pulled up the edge of the carpet in several places and I can see moisture barrier sticking out from the laminate a little.

So, is it possible to get a quieter laminate, or can I expect that of all of it?


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## MD_Tile

Rehabber said:


> Do not use Ditra in this application. Ditra requires unmodified thinset and that will not adhere to the old tile


Ditra only requires the use of unmodified cements over the top side. In fact, when adhering ditra to any surface, you should use a thinset that is compatable with the surface you are bonding it to. In your case, i would use a modified cement to adhere the ditra to the sub surface and use an unmodified cement to adhere the tile to the ditra. In any case, make sure the structure below can support the tile as ditra does not add as much vertical support to the structure as Durock while it does offer greater anti-fracture properties. If you choose to use Durock, you will also need to set it in a thinset mortar that is compatable with the sub-floor as well as using a fastener. There are durock screws or you can use roofing nails which are both acceptable.


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## MD_Tile

tgf40 said:


> I've got 9x9 probably asbestos vinyl tile with the black adhesive underneath on a concrete slab. Parts of the slab never had tile, but were painted.
> 
> From what I've read I should go return the mapei UF1 I bought and get instead a bag of mapei UF2.
> 
> I was considering installing ditra over the black adhesive (that I now know to call cutback). Is it necessary? Is it helpful? Does it have any insulation value (Wisconsin concrete basement floors are cold)? Roughly how much does it cost per SF? What would be reasons that I would or wouldn't want to install it? There's no moisture problem. This is a basement in a house on the top of a hill where the soil is very sandy. So there's never flooding.
> 
> Or should I tile directly over the cutback with the Ultraflex 2?
> 
> I got some vague answers on another tile forum, just wondering what advice I'd get here.
> 
> Thanks!


Im not sure how much insulation value there is in ditra but it should create some barrier between the cold concrete and the new tile. the ditra should help absorb some of the cracking that can occur in concrete slabs and prevent it from distributing through to the tile. Its not bulletproof and won't absorb wide cracks over 1/8" inch. Ditra is approx $1.40 per sq. ft to purchase and is installed relatively clean and simple. I live in Central Wisconsin and would be happy to stop by and look at your situation if you are within 50 miles. I am also in the Stevens Point area AT&T yellow pages, feel free to call me if you have any questions i might be able to walk you through. Its hard to give the right answers without seeing the job and as the saying goes, "there is more than one way to skin a cat". 
M. Doucette Tile Installations
Stevens Point, Wisconsin


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## MD_Tile

Brik said:


> Yea, if you are really concerned. The moon suit approach has lost favor in recent years and the scare is minimized.
> 
> First off - Asbestos is only a concern if its airborne. Second, its not a certainty that this tile contains asbestos. Even if it did contain asbestos it would be hard to make it airborne. If it is asbestos in the tile (or mastic) its encapsulated in the tile. Wear a dust mask, put a fan in a window. If your really concerned wear a respirator instead of a .99c mask.
> 
> Bottom line - keep it simple - Tile over the concrete. Thats the right thing to do. No use discussing other options that might work. There is no question that the tile will stick to the concrete w/o doing anything special.


Brik is correct about the removal of asbestos tiles. They are a non fryable product and safe and legal to remove with a mask however you should not drill through or alter them in a way that you will create fine dust which can become airborne and you should not sweep the debris causing airborne dust. You should not vacuum the dust without the proper 3-stage filter. It is best to mop the areas using the proper chemicals. Some of the adhesives also contain asbestos which can cystalize and become more harmful than the tile.


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## Bud Cline

> *They are a non fryable product* and safe and legal to remove with a mask however


 
It's no wonder contractors are in trouble all the time.

Asbestos tiles ARE IN FACT FRIABLE. They are to be removed in a non-friable manner. Meaning: Don't break them down any more than necessary, the bigger the pieces the better.

People are posting here with no real knowledge of what the hell they are talking about.

*fri·a·ble* /ˈfraɪ







l]
_–adjective _*easily crumbled or reduced to powder; crumbly: *_*friable rock.* _
[Origin: 1555–65; < L _friābilis,_ equiv. to _friā_(_re_) to rub, crumble


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## MD_Tile

Bud Cline said:


> It's no wonder contractors are in trouble all the time.
> 
> Asbestos tiles ARE IN FACT FRIABLE. They are to be removed in a non-friable manner. Meaning: Don't break them down any more than necessary, the bigger the pieces the better.
> 
> People are posting here with no real knowledge of what the hell they are talking about.
> 
> *fri·a·ble* /ˈfraɪ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> l]
> _–adjective _*easily crumbled or reduced to powder; crumbly: *_*friable rock.* _
> [Origin: 1555–65; < L _friābilis,_ equiv. to _friā_(_re_) to rub, crumble


First of all, ive been certified for unsupervised asbestos and lead removal for over 20 years so before you accuse me or anyone of having no knowledge you should do a little more homework yourself. You took a quote out of a dictionary which isnt nessasarilly correct when you apply it to the terms used by us professionals. When we use the term non friable we simply mean that by removing the tiles, without altering them in a way to create particles that are small enough to penetrate the fiberous tissue within our lungs. Do the tiles crack and crumble during removal, YES they do but they do not reduce to nearly microscopic particles that will affect you. you cant even pulverize a tile with a hammer to create particles small enough. I appologize if your not familiar with our terminology. For example, when someone asks "Who cut the cheese?" theyr'e not really implying that someone actually cut cheese.
Over the years there have been alot of issues on the truth about asbestos tiles and for the most part everyone would rather be safe than sorry but we do our fair share of VA removal and use nothing more than masks. There are inspectors on every job and our only requirements are to tag and verify that the materials are disposed of properly and they do require that atleast one certified supervisor be on site at all times.
We do not work nationwide and i dont know if there are additional requirements that differ from state to state. your local codes may be different from mine. Your concerns should be directed more towards the remaining adhesives and your methods of removing the tiles. we generally use nitrogen blankets for large removals that will literally freeze the tiles and allow them to pop off easily. if your still using strippers and scrapers, then you are old school and need to update your equipment along with your knowledge.


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## Bud Cline

My dad is tuffer than your dad! 

I too am certified in asbestos abatement (for a long time now) and YOU don't understand the definition of the terms you are throwing around.

Doesn't matter what the source of the definition is, the meaning is the same. Anything that can be reduced by crushing or impact is considered friable. Any process that causes a reduction in size can produce microscopic particles.

Hell man, you couldn't even spell the word much less define it.


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## MD_Tile

WOW ! are you really that big of an idiot? Maybe your the one that cut the cheese or simply ************ all over yourself. To believe that you are reducing the asbestos particles into microscopic particles small enough to penetrate the fiberous tissues in your lungs by popping these tiles off the floor is simply NOT TRUE! To reduce the size or crush the tiles does not mean it is small enough. And so what if i mispell a word, im not entering a spelling bee. 
Like i said before, your info as well as your methods are old school. 
Your source of info must be outdated. 
Get your head out of your ass and UPDATE! UPDATE! UPDATE! 
Then maybe some of your comments will be worth listening to.

We could go back n forth on this subject forever. You chose to be a smart ass from the start. Now its time to grow up and move on to another subject.
BTW, the term smart ass doesnt imply there is any form of intelligence coming from you or your ass, but i will congratulate you for winning the Spelling Bee, so take your blue ribbon and be happy.


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## Bud Cline

Just be sure the information you put out here is accurate, that's all I ask. So far it is not.:no:


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## MD_Tile

Ok, lets leave it like this. you've got your info and ive got mine. apparently we both trust our own sources even though they might conflict with each other. Be happy, you still got the blue ribbon.


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## tgf40

*didn't use ditra*

Thanks for your reply MD
I didn't end up using ditra, the tile is now set down over the cutback (mostly), should be able to finish one of these weekends.
The old vinyl tile is bagged up in the garage - was easy to remove, tiles popped right up whole with minimal scraping - we found that our dump will take it for $30 a yard, double bagged. We have a few asbestos exterior shingles to remove later this spring so we'll make just one trip with all of it for the same $30.

Thanks for your offer to take a look. We're in Eau Claire.
A little far from Point. But if you have experience making tile showers (kerdi?) and would be willing to help us out on another project - continuous with the tile I just laid - I can start a new thread and give you more details. Or if you're ever in the EC area (totally no rush on this project, but before summer would be nice) - I'd love you to have a look -- Or are there any tile layers from EC that read these threads and can stop by to advise?

tgf40


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## Nicholas.

Hi, I've been having some similar problems and came across this forum post while searching for info.

 

We have similar tile floor in one of our rooms
It was carpeted but due to a funny chemical odor (Almost reminds me of stale fritos and motor oil, no kidding..) we pulled the carpet.
The black tile was covered in an oily residue. I actually dropped a receipt on the floor and accidentally stepped on it - it looked like it was dropped in motor oil.
There were quite a few cracks in the tile and there were several section where chunks or pieces were broken off the tile.
The carpet tack strips were moldy and were also nailed directly into the tile.
The carpet pdding was moldy and was also discolored. It had a dark yellowish hue - looked like motor oil stains.
The floor was strip cleaned. Funny thing the strip cleaning launched small black globules of this oil black residue over the walls.
We then had the tile re-carpeted.
Here are my concerns... The tile is cracked in a lot of places and there are even big chunks of it missing. There's a funny smell coming from it and we actually feel ill in the room. If were in there longer than 15 minutes without the windows open we get headaches, dizzy and even pale. I think this floor is asbestos - that obviously isn't good. I'm also really concerned about this black oily substance and the smell which comes from the floor. I think something toxic is gassing but I can't put my finger on it. I would really appreciate any help and advice on this. Thanks.

Here's a picture of the tack board we pulled out... covered in mold.
FULL SIZE
 










Here's an image of the black tile which was covered in an oily film. The saw dust was there on the tile when we pulled the carpet and the padding was moldy. This picture was taken right after we pulled the carpet which was only about 2 years old.
FULL SIZE


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## Nicholas.

Has anyone had any experience with this kind of thing? I'd really appreciate some feedback. Thanks...


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## Marvin Gardens

Only asbestos insulation in the roll form is what you need to worry about.

I have asbestos siding. Best siding I have ever had. It's like having rock for siding....oh wait...asbestos is rock...nevermind.

Now if you were to grind on it and make it airborn....this is a different story.

If you do it yourself an N95 mask will work fine. I prefer the N100 because they fit my face better.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Nicholas:

I've had lots of experience with this "oily substance" you're talking about. I've had it on the hardwood of every living room that I remove the 30 year old carpeting out of.

If it's what I think it is, it's not oil or grease at all. It's the black chips in the foam chip pad that was under the carpet. Years ago, when that underpad was made, the black foam wasn't very stable, and it decomposed after about 20 years, leaving you with blobs of black gunk all over the floor (wherever a black foam chip was) that resembles for all the world something that dropped off the underside of your car's engine.

If the floor was a lighter colour, you would have seen all kinds of black blobs everywhere on the floor, but with your black floor it was hard for you to recognize that the oily gunk occured in distinct blobs, and wasn't spread uniformly over the floor tiles.

For anyone encountering the same thing in future, the best way to remove this stuff is with a concentrated solution of powdered laundry detergent in water. You just spread it on, give some time for the detergent to work, and then clean it up with a sponge and it comes right up.

When you pulled the carpet, did you find that there were TWO underpads; a newer one installed over an old one? If so, that can happen when carpet installers don't want the homeowner to see what's under that old underpad. If he/she does, she won't want the new carpet installed over it until that black greasy gunk is cleaned up, and that screws up their whole schedule. It wouldn't have made sense for someone two years ago to install a new carpet over a worn out underpad.

But, to answer your question, you CAN install vinyl composition tile over old vinyl composition tile, and I've had good results doing that. I see no reason why you couldn't install new vinyl composition tile over old asbestos tile provided the old asbestos tile was stuck down solidly. You should strip any old floor finish off the tile first, and then use a clear VC tile adhesive like Roberts 2057. Or were you thinking of installing ceramic tile over this floor?

PS: I can't tell from the picture you posted, but the brown tiles posted by the original poster of this thread look to me like something called "asphalt tiles", which I expect probably were made with asbestos. If your tiles are hard and are the same material all the way through their thickness, then I think they're probably also asphalt tiles. I don't know when they stopped making asphalt tiles, but I think it's safe to assume that all asphalt tiles contain asbestos. I may be wrong on that, tho. But, asbestos is only dangerous if inhaled as dust, so if those tiles can be popped off the floor intact or in large pieces, the health risk would be greatly reduced. However, most likely the adhesive holding those tiles down would also contain asbestos. They used it in almost everything years ago, including toothpaste for a cleaner, whiter smile.

Also, if I recall, back then asphalt tiles (because they were harder and would crack if bent) were only installed over concrete. Over wood, they would install something called "linoleum tiles" which were constructed with an asphalt impregnated paper backing and a vinyl wear layer on top (a lot like linoleum is). So, that's a clear indication to me that you have concrete under those tiles, not wood.


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## Nicholas.

Thanks for all the good info. I can confirm that we do have a concrete floor under this black tile and that the tile itself is very hard / brittle. There probably was an old "black chip" pad under one of the original carpets here but I'm not sure. We've had to replace this carpet twice in the past 5 years as a result of the subtle odor coming up from the floor - after about 15 minutes without ventilation anyone in the room starts to develop a headache among other things. Although we did have the tile strip cleaned before the last insulation of carpet we still have a problem with this funny odor. I think something is gassing from the floor but I can't put my finger on it.


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## Familypro40

_Thanks for all the good info. I can confirm that we do have a concrete floor under this black tile and that the tile itself is very hard / brittle. There probably was an old "black chip" pad under one of the original carpets here but I'm not sure. We've had to replace this carpet twice in the past 5 years as a result of the subtle odor coming up from the floor - after about 15 minutes without ventilation anyone in the room starts to develop a headache among other things. Although we did have the tile strip cleaned before the last insulation of carpet we still have a problem with this funny odor. I think something is gassing from the floor but I can't put my finger on it. _

_Nicholas,_
did you ever solve your strange odor problem? Was it just the mold and must ? I am having a similar problem. Thanks.


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## Nicholas.

We haven't been able to get to the bottom of it. I keep the room well ventilated which helps but it's really inconvenient. My suspicion is that something is "gassing" from the tile or the adhesives but I really don't know what it is. It's definitely coming from the floor though and steam cleaning the carpet removes the build up of the odor...


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## Familypro40

Nicholas. said:


> We haven't been able to get to the bottom of it. I keep the room well ventilated which helps but it's really inconvenient. My suspicion is that something is "gassing" from the tile or the adhesives but I really don't know what it is. It's definitely coming from the floor though and steam cleaning the carpet removes the build up of the odor...


Nicholas,
I have been asking arround and spoke to a veteran floor guy last night. It looks like the odor (which I have also but not the mold) is comming from the moisture wicking up through the concrete slab (hydrostatic pressure) and reactivating the cutback(old black adhesive) under the tiles. The odor should be worse in the humid-wet weather. It had been recommended to use Dry-lok ( a kind of latex concrete paint used for basement walls and such) over the tiles which should seal it. Then padding and carpet. My thoughts are to maybe put down sheet vinyl over the old tiles to seal off the floor and then padding and carpet? Just wanted to let you know.

Paul


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## Allison1888

*asbestos*

tile over it. It's not worth paying the men in the white suits to take out the asbestos. As long as it's not disturbed, you're fine.


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## Nicholas.

That is the most logical / best explanation I have heard yet. I always suspected something was gassing. Moisture wicking up and reactivating the cutback would definitely do it. Now to just figure out what to do about it. Even if we re-tile or threw down hard wood over the black tile we're still going to have this chemical odor problem. It seems like the only real option is to have the old tile removed, break up about half an inch of the old concrete, pour fresh concrete to level it out, seal it then tile / hardwood over top..


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## Familypro40

Nicholas. said:


> That is the most logical / best explanation I have heard yet. I always suspected something was gassing. Moisture wicking up and reactivating the cutback would definitely do it. Now to just figure out what to do about it. Even if we re-tile or threw down hard wood over the black tile we're still going to have this chemical odor problem. It seems like the only real option is to have the old tile removed, break up about half an inch of the old concrete, pour fresh concrete to level it out, seal it then tile / hardwood over top..


 
Nicholas,
I just figured something out. My basement had a very strong musty smell when we moved in two years ago. I put a dehumidifier down there and no more must smell. I even have a grand piano down there now. My neighbor with the same basement with the same tiles as mine was having moisture issues with his carpet which was over the tiles. A dehumidifier did the trick for his basement and no more moist carpet. I suspect your odor increases in the wet, humid weather. and decreases in the winter (dryer) months. I think its more about the condensation and in your case (from your pictures) maybe you have enough moisture build up to cause the mold and mildew (which might explain the sickness part ). Let me know if you decide to try a dehumidifier. Thanks.
Paul


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## randyhnl

Hi all. I'm new to this thread but have the same problem. I have asphalt tiles that I have had tested and they contain 10% asbestos. I want to put down both tile flooring and floating cork flooring. So although I would rather leave the asbestos tiles undisturbed, for some reason, the previous homeowners ripped up half the asbestos tiles and replace them with newer, squishy vinyl tiles. And when I say half, I mean like half of each room. Don't ask me why. It is sort of random. Therefore, my only option is to remove all the tiles, vinyl and asbestos. I've read Gone_Fishing's adventures and his task list seems like a good starting point. I've modified it slightly since I live in Hawaii and don't have a heater.

1) Seal off rest of house
2) Soak tiles in a soap/water mixture
3) Wear some tyvek, gloves, respirator, and goggles (I'm not sure what tyvek is)
4) Use putty knife to remove tiles
5) Put into plastic bags and dispose of correctly.

My questions are:
a) What is the soap and water mixture in Step 2?
b) How would I remove the mastic? I have to remove the mastic since I am putting down floating floors in some areas so there would be no thinset to cover the mastic. I'm assuming the mastic also has asbestos (I didn't have this tested). I saw one post recommending Feather Finish. Can I use that over the mastic if I'm putting floating floors over it?
c) How long do I have to let the floor dry after removing the mastic before I can tile?

Thanks for your help

Also, one person mentioned "...you should not sweep the debris causing airborne dust. You should not vacuum the dust without the proper 3-stage filter. It is best to mop the areas using the proper chemicals." Does anyone know what chemicals he is referring to?


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## valerie_cat

*Seeking advice on home with possible asbestos/lead exposures*

My young daughter and I have lived in a 1950s rental home for two years now. For quite some time, I have been concerned about the home we're in... ...both bedrooms have popcorn ceilings (which apparently are flaking, as each night there are "crumbs" on our beds) ...the living room, kitchen and hallway ceilings have what may be asbestos tiles ...the living room, kitchen and hallway floors have dark, almost black, vinyl/asphalt tiles (identical to the ones pictured in this thread) and the floor tiles are broken/chipped all along the walls and in the door thresholds (I believe that's what they're called) going into each bedroom ...the house is made of concrete, with the exception of one interior wall separating one bedroom from the living room and two interior walls separating the bathroom from the adjacent bedrooms ...the house has a musty smell ...the bedroom closet containing the bathtub access panel reeks--any clothing, shoes and the like left in there for only a few weeks smell musty; also, there is a 2'x4' area on one of the closet walls in this closet that appears to be moldy ...the bathroom window--covered in black and white tiles--always has black mold growing on it (the mold is also in between two window panes) ...the bathroom toilet "sweats" continually ...the kitchen cabinets--most of them--have a gray-colored mold growing on the inner concrete wall near the ceiling (the cabinets were attached directly to the concrete wall) ...the original 1950s hot water heater was finally replaced only two weeks ago ...the water pipes running under the house (from the kitchen to the bathroom) are corroded (the plumber who replaced the hot water heater said that the reason my washing machine "drain water" was backing up into the drain pipe and flooding my kitchen was due to a pipe underneath the home that had broken; he said he used a snake to unclog all of the mud--or something like that--that had gotten into the pipe, which was why I hadn't had hot water in my home for two weeks; needless to say, I have a "slum landlord") I may be forgetting other items of importance, but with what I have provided here, could this house be contributing to the overall ill feelings that my daughter and I have? In September, we were in Louisiana for three weeks, and while there, we felt perfectly fine. In fact, whenever we leave our home for more than a few hours, we begin feeling great. Oh! And we also have trouble breathing when we are inside our home.) Should I have all the suspected asbestos/lead problems inspected? My guess is, yes. I cannot afford to pay for inspections myself, and my landlord is "slum" so it is of no use to even ask him. (He would only do so unless court-ordered or threatened with a suit.) Thanks for any help!


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## Brik

*A few suggestions*

First - This might have been better off as a new post.

First with your residence - begin looking for a new place. Don't do anything that would cause you to loose money, loose a security deposit or anything. Just move when you can. Look around. You may find a better place for less money.

Second - Inform your slumlord of the issue. Put them in a letter and keep a copy for your self. Even if he does nothing at least he is on notice.

Third - CLEAN - Bleach and water. Scrub everything. That will kill the mold. Keep windows open whenever possible. Use a bathroom vent fan, if you have one. Use AC if you have it and can afford it (not with windows open).

Lastly - The popcorn ceiling could be painted. This will keep the crumbs off the bed and encapsulate any possible asbestos. 

Good luck in finding a new place, now get moving.


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## libbybuddy

*Repair chips left from carpet strips*

I had carpet over asbetos tiles over concrete. I want to lay ceramic floor tiles. I've removed the asbestos tiles & 90% of the mastic. Unfortunately the cement floor has chipped from the nails holding the carpet strips down. What to do? Remove all Mastic? How do I fill or fix chips. I doubt I'll be able to get all the mastic up 100%. How will this affect my next step & what should it be? P.S. Orange King works much better than the bean goo. I'm getting mighty discouraged.


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## Dorado

This is an old thread, but there's some dangerous misinformation.



Rehabber said:


> I would tile over [asbestos tile] with a quality modified thinset like Mapei's Ultraflex 2. Their spec sheet says it will adhere well to the tile.





Rehabber said:


> ...Mapei's ultraflex 2 or 3 adheres extremely well, and eliminates the asbestos hazard by encapsulation.


The technical data for Ultraflex 2 says "Do not use over...substrates containing asbestos." It's in the Limitations section on the first page. My guess it that it's safe to put it on but if the covering tile is ever removed then the asbestos tile under it may fall apart and release asbestos.

I've read about temporary/permanent construction adhesive and it had the same warning. I'm interested in this because I want to install a steel track on a floor that currently has asbestos tile and I'm trying to avoid drilling. I'll probably lay "grey step stone" where under where I want the track (only one sq. ft.) and hold it down with an L bracket attached to the wall then screw the track into the stone. Or I can glue the stone to the wood on the bottom of the wall that the baseboard gets nailed into. It wouldn't work in most cases but it should work for me.


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## lalouli

*Don't remove your own asbestos unless you know what you're doing!*

One asbestos fiber in your lungs can cause disease a decade or two down the road. It's not worth the few hundred bucks you'll save DIYing it not to see your grandkids, etc. If you insist on doing it, research best practices to protect yourself and your family. Have your flooring tested, also. It can be as little as 25 dollars for the test.


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## JoeArt

*Removal*



Brik said:


> Is it a wood floor under or concrete? If wood floor I would leave them and put backer board over and then tile. If concrete under I would remove them and tile right on the concrete. Removal is, in my opinion, a DIY job. Just wear a dust mask and get on with it. If the old tiles go under things like water heater, etc, just leave them in that area if you do not feel up to moving that stuff. Even easier - Just carpet over them.


You wrote that removal is a do it yourself job and to wear
a dust mask. The problem with this asbestos fibers may get on clothes and into the air. This is why it should be professionally done.


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