# HELP - wiring a 4 gang switch panel



## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

Decided to replace my old switches this weekend and got in a little over my head.

2 switches on the left are 3 way, and the 2 on the right are regular switches. The one on the left works - the rest do not. I tried to wire it up the way they were on the old switches (with the wires going to just one screw on the 2nd 3-way switch), but after the 2nd switch didn't work, I tried to get creative and after trying seemingly endless wiring combinations, I couldn't get any of the 3 remaining switches to work. 

Here's a photo of the mess, and a diagram I cooked up. Any help is very appreciated.


****I updated the wiring diagram with the changes I made. The one on top with the #7 is the newest...


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Is this how itis now or how it was before?
I have no idea where to start with this.
I can tell you from the drawing
Cable 4 & 5 appear to be unswitched power in and power out.
'No idea' switch will need to be on for porch to work.

I also appears the the bottom right screw of th three way switches should be the common connection(usually a black screw).


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Needless to say, it is a good idea to take pictures, label each wire with sticky labels, and draw a wiring diagram *before* disconnecting any of the old switches.

If you know how it was wired with the old switches, then be aware that a new 3-way switch will probably have different connections than a new 3 way switch.

You need to understand how a 3-way switch works inside. It is like in the below picture.

And you need to know how to use a continuity tester. Check the old 3 way switches and the new 3 way and note the differences. How to use a continuity tester...
http://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/Test_Fuse.htm

3-way switch...


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

joed said:


> Is this how itis now or how it was before?


This is how it is now. When I was loosing the screws on the switch, I didn't realize that some of the screws had 2 and sometimes 3 wires on them - and after I took the screws out I wasn't sure which ones had multiple wires on them...



joed said:


> It also appears the the bottom right screw of the three way switches should be the common connection(usually a black screw).


I must have the 3-ways 'upside' down - the common black screw is on the upper left here.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Next you need to understand what each switch goes to.

Then you have all the tools you need to figure out this puzzle!

Figure out which wires go to each light or whatever they go to and LABEL those wires.

You can remove a light fixture, use a long length of wire, and a continuity tester to determine WHICH wire(s) from the switch box goes to that light.

AND...

You can remove the covers on the opposite 3 way switches, then use a long length of wire and a continuity tester to find which wires go to the opposite 3 way switches in the 4 gang box.

You will need to disconnect the wires from the opposite 3 way switches before doing a continuity test. And at the other end as well. Label the wires first and take pictures.

You can get stick on address labels to stick to an envelope, cut them thin with scissors, and stick them around each wire. Then write A, B, C... on each wire or whatever.

You also need to *fully* understand the wiring in your house and *fully* understand how the entire circuits function. If you don't, get a book on electrical wiring from a home improvement store and this may make things click (get one with many pictures and diagrams of typical wiring).


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

P.S. The "neutral" wires shown in the above picture probably don't travel through your 4 gang electrical box.

And with old wiring there is no "ground" wire, so that would not be there either.

And it is possible these switches are on more than one breaker / circuit. So best to always turn off the main power before working on any electrical wiring. Then you are sure all the power is off!


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

Billy_Bob said:


> P.S. The "neutral" wires shown in the above picture probably don't travel through your 4 gang electrical box.
> 
> And with old wiring there is no "ground" wire, so that would not be there either.


That's correct.



Billy_Bob said:


> And it is possible these switches are on more than one breaker / circuit. So best to always turn off the main power before working on any electrical wiring. Then you are sure all the power is off!


Yep - they are on more than one breaker.

Going to pick up a multimeter tonight to try to figure this out. I'm assuming I need to figure out what wires go to what and then hook the switches up to them.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

I think what has thrown me of the most is that I've never seen switches wired to each other in the same box, nor have I seen more than one wire connected to a single screw on a switch before. Of course that may be because I've never really done much 'electrical' work other than replacing single outlets and switches.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

The wires on 1 and 2 will be travelers for the 3way switches and should connect to the silver colored screws on those switches. Since you said the far left switch works the light it is supposed to, that means the black from cable 3 should connect to the black screw on that switch. Of the remaining cables, 4,5,6 you will need to determine which is the incoming hot. What concerns me though is the single black wire you have shown... where does it go and whay is there no associated white wire with it?

The two single pole switches will be the ones that share the incoming hot, although the second 3way may share also.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

HouseHelper said:


> What concerns me though is the single black wire you have shown... where does it go and whay is there no associated white wire with it?


I can't tell for sure, it appears that behind that bundle of white wires, there may be another 'terminal' that the stray black wire is going into, and I think the associated white wire might be coming out of that terminal and going straight into that pigtailed bundle.

I'll have to go check it out for sure when I get home this evening.

BTW, I'm not sure if terminal is the proper word here, but I hope it makes sense. When I say terminal I'm referring to the places where the black & white wire come into the box...


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

First you must not put more than one wire under a screw. Put then togethr in a wire nut and add a short pigtail to go to the switch.
SEcond figure out wires are the unswitched hot. If there is more than one circuit involved then I think you might have an issue with neutrals crossed between circuits as well.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Tim_ said:


> Going to pick up a multimeter tonight to try to figure this out. I'm assuming I need to figure out what wires go to what and then hook the switches up to them.


Also you can look at this as sort of a "crossword puzzle". If you can figure out one or two switches, then the remaining wires will be easier to figure out!

As to the wire going from switch to switch...

-Basically a switch turns off/on the "hot" only to a light.

-You only need to run the hot wires to a regular switch (2 wires). One from the supply power hot and one going to the light.

-And if you have say 2 switches in one box, there is no need to run 2 separate hot "supply" wires to the switch box (a total of 4 wires). Instead you can run just 1 for the "hot supply from the breaker panel", then connect that to the other switch to provide power to that switch (a total of 3 wires and one jumper between the two switches).


Then this all looks to be quite complex! BUT it is just 4 separate switches basically. Just get one working at a time, then go on to the next.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

How it's wired currently, I need to have both the "no idea" switch, and the "porch" switch turned ON for the porch light to come on...

I picked up a Voltage Tester and this Multimeter / AC Voltage Detector tonight:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Tim_ said:


> How it's wired currently, I need to have both the "no idea" switch, and the "porch" switch turned ON for the porch light to come on...


That problem is easy to fix. Take the wire off the top of the no idea switch that does NOT go to the other switch and swap it with the bottom wire that goes to the porch switch.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

Your need to take the wire between your no idea switch and your porch switch off. then take your other wire from your no idea switch and put it on the porch switch where you removed the other wire. that will straighten out your porch light.
Gona study your diagram some more.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

Tim do you have skype or could you send your phone # to me by private message and I'll try and talk you through this , it might be easier.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

does your landing light or the doorway light work? If so wire #5 should be the line from your panel.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

codeone said:


> does your landing light or the doorway light work? If so wire #5 should be the line from your panel.


The doorway light works (switch on the far left)...

The landing light (2nd switch from the left) does not. Is it possible I have the wrong wire running to it somewhere?

Using my voltage tester on that switch, with the switch in the up position, the tester lights up when I connect both left side screws, and both bottom screws.

With the switch down, the tester lights up when I touch the top left screw and the bottom right screw, as well as both bottom screws.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

I downloaded your pics so I could enlarge your power may come in from the wire to the right bottom of your switch box. do you have a # I could call dnt want you to put it on a reply here you could send a private message. My dime.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

The first thing you need to do is find the black wire that comes from the panel.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

before you do anything. go turn your other three way to the landing light and see if you can come back to the landing switch and then turn it on.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

Got the Landing Light 3-way Switch working! I switched the wires coming out of "#2" - I put the #2 black wire on the black screw, and the #2 white wire on the gold screw...

Now I just need to try to figure out how to get the porch working with just one switch. 

I tried the 2 suggestions on the bottom of page 1 to no avail. 

I'll update the wiring diagram in the morning.

Question are the 2 single pole switches on the right using the "Landing Light" switch to complete their circuit since neither of them have a white wire running to them?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

There is no way that there should be three wires on the gold screw of the three way switch. Remove them all and put them back one at a time until you figure out which one belongs there.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

joed said:


> There is no way that there should be three wires on the gold screw of the three way switch. Remove them all and put them back one at a time until you figure out which one belongs there.


I agree - but that's how it was when I took the panel off. My next step is to remove one wire at a time from that screw and see what it does.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok, here's the new diagram.

2 changes:

1 - There is a 7th terminal. It was hidden from view by the bundle of white wire.

2 - I switched the wires on the 3-way Landing Light. I put the #2 black wire on the black screw, and moved the #2 white wire to the gold screw.

Landing Light now works.

Porch light works - but only with the No Idea light on too.

I need to retry the suggestions on the bottom of page 1, since when I tried them last time, the Landing Light was still not working.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

codeone said:


> The first thing you need to do is find the black wire that comes from the panel.


How do I find that out? I have multimeter now - not really sure how to use it to be honest. So far I've just been reading the manual and testing things like batteries and outlets...


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

A "quickie" on how to use your multimeter...

(BTW, I don't own a "AC Voltage Detector" and would not use one except for maybe finding wires in walls. These can give misleading results. Indicate power is present when in fact the breaker is turned off.)

For the meter, you would place the test leads in the center hole (black) and the right hole (red). These are used for measuring everything you would use the multimeter for.

A bit about electricity...

Homes have what is called AC electricity or alternating current. The electricity switches back and forth many times a second. + -, then - +, then + -, etc. 60 times a second!

Then cars and flashlights - things with batteries use DC electricity or direct current. This is always + -.

So when using a multimeter to test for electricity, you need to set the selector to the right kind of electricity. And the right range (larger number than the voltage).

So to measure DC voltage, you would set your selector to the VDC area. And if measuring the voltage on a 12 volt car battery, you would set the selector to the 20 volt range. This will measure up to 20 volts. So VDC and 20 for a car battery.

For an electrical outlet in a house, you would set the selector on the meter to the VAC area. And house electric outlets and lights are around 120 volts AC. So set the range to 200. So VAC 200 to measure the electricity for an outlet or light.

And something in a home like an electric range, electric water heater, or clothes dryer would be 240 volts AC. To measure that you would need to use a higher range than 200. So you would set the selector to VAC 600.

Then ohms is continuity basically. You can use this to see if two wires connect. Or to test a fuse like in the link above. Set this to the ohms 200 setting, then touch the two test leads together. You will get a reading of 0 or close to 0. This is all you need to know about ohms for now. Just set it to 200 to test for continuity.

Warning: The power MUST be off before using the meter set to ohms. If there is live electricity, it will fry your meter!

And if there is a light bulb in the circuit, the ohm meter or continuity tester will see this! Or if there is a switch in the works and the switch is on, this will be seen as well.

Example: Take an extension cord which is not plugged into anything. Set the meter to ohms 200, then measure the two prongs on the plug. Should read nothing. Now plug a lamp which is turned on into the other end of the extension cord (no electricity connected). Now again read the two prongs on the plug. You now get a reading! Turn off the switch on the light. Now no reading!

So you can disconnect all the wires on the outside light. And all the wires from the switch which is connected to this light. Then use a length of wire to connect to the black wire going to the light outside (speaker wire or whatever). And run this wire inside. Then test with ohms 200 from that wire to the wire at the switch box going to that light and get a reading!

You can tell which wire goes to that light.

And no other wires will give a reading in the switch box to that wire.

BUT! If you leave the light fixture and light bulb connected to that wire outside, this connects to the white neutral wire at the light. That white wire connects to every OTHER white neutral wire in the HOUSE!

So the "testing electricity" from the meter would travel from the black wire, through the light bulb, to the neutral, to other light fixtures, through their light bulbs and to their black wires, through their switches if they are turned on, then back through to several other black wires in the 4 gang switch box!

[In other words, it is necessary to disconnect the wires at both ends so you get a valid continuity test.]

Then on the multimeter is BAT. Use that to test batteries.

And last is ADC and AAC. Basically this is useless, don't ever set your meter to these. This would be like a direct short across the test leads. This measures "amperage" or how much electricity is "flowing" through a wire. You would need to cut a wire, then use the test leads to complete the circuit to make this measurement. And using the bottom right hole would only measure a tiny amount of electricity. Measure more than that and it will blow a fuse in the meter.

And the test lead hole on the left goes up to 10 amps, but this is NOTHING compared with the amperage which is used in a home or in a car. Useless!

Home electrical circuits are 15 amps, 20 amps, 30 amps, etc.

Car electrical circuits these days are 15 amps, 20 amps, 35 amps. And it is common to have a 100 or 150 amp alternator!

So the electricity flowing in most circuits these days is much more than the capacity of your meter. Don't use the amperage setting. They make and AC/DC clamp meter which goes up to 600 amps and would be much more useful for that! Here is one...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XW6AYU?ie=UTF8&redirect=true

More on multimeters...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=how+to+use+a+multimeter&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. EVERYTHING WORKS!!

I managed to configure the 'no idea' switch to operate an outlet in the living room.

I closed the panel once the wiring was complete, so there wont be an updated diagram. 

There are no longer 3 wires running to a single screw on the 3-way Landing Light Switch (there's 2).


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Good job!

Now you can play with the multimeter!

Check the voltage of your car battery.

Check the voltage of an outlet.

And I didn't mention it, but the OHMS will measure "resistance". You can get a few resistors at Radio Shack, check long lengths of wire, etc.

Resistor...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I guess if it works it works but there is no way you should have two wires on a traveler connection of a three way switch.


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## Tim_ (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought everything worked... Then I discovered that when I turned the 3-way switches OFF from the 2nd level, the downstairs switch would not turn them back on.

Also found out that one of the terminals controls a bathroom light in my basement under the porch. After some study of online diagrams and my own, I think I've got it figured out. I think. I need to figure out which lines are Power and which lines go out to the lights...

So here's my plan - does it seem to make sense to anyone else?

I want to wire it so that my basement light always has power (there is a switch in the room itself), and I want to be able to have a switch on an outlet in the room (labeled R for Recepticle)


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Now it makes sense except for one thing. I think you said the doorway light 3way was on a different circuit. If that is true you have a crossed neutral by connecting it with all the other neutrals.

If it's all on one circuit it makes perfect sense.


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