# New Roof Photos



## Cole (Mar 12, 2005)

Holy Big Picture Batman!


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Last photo shows exposed wood in the corner.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Ouch, my eyes....


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

:thumbup: Atlantic, I am so pleased you like the photos! Thank You !

I could not find a way to get them up in one post. I 'can't even edit to comment on any off them.

I hope it don't ever rain ...Or snow for that matter:jester:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

That has got to be the lowest profile ridge vent I ever saw.

From the photos that showed up, it does not look like one was installed.

Was it? If so, where does it have enough room to allow any exhaust from?

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Ridge vent looks nothing like I thought it would. Hot air is exhausting though. You can feel it on your fingers . I was surprised. 

More serious issue to contend with now though. Skylight flashing in last photo is totally messed up. I am fairly sure that piece sticking up is supposed to be under the shingles. Looks like the ice and water is missing along along the side and a piece of flashing as well. :huh:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

nils are driven in the wrong places on ridge vent,should be over the vent so the cap lies flat,the skylight gasket at the window looks like garbage,the step flashing is not properly spaced w/shingle exposure,I&Wobviously doesn`t end on skylight curb as mfgr requires,and yes that gap is definitely a leak waiting to happenput a tarp opver the light that laps over the ridge,weigh it down w/pavers(do not put fasteners thru the roof!)also from your pics,i see where shingles are lifted in several areas where it appears the reason would be nails sitting up that weren`t driven flush-attend to this immediately before the shingle settles over these nails and creates holes all over your roof-looks to be a very poor installation-sorry to be the bearer of bad news


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

On top of all that my decking is 1/2" plywood on 2x3 trusses spaced 24" on center with no clips on any of the plywood.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

probably 2x4(actual 1 1/2" x 3 1/2")--be glad you don`t have OSB:yes: THE ROOF SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF PROPERLY-I guess you`ve never had a problem w/ the sheathing before,a lot of people feel the clips are primarily for spacing-they certainly aren`t very strong!--the ridge vent will be a problem because the shingles can`t seal cleanly over the fasteners and water will rust those nails out and eventually cause it to leak *THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS*


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

No 2x3 and 2x3 in interior wall studs. Had to take 1" off stock HD door frames to make same width as wall and sheet rock. Inferior house.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Took closer look at the ridge vent. There are 2 nails on each side of the ridge. GAF specification only calls for one on each side. 

TRG the nails are on the vent, in some cases barely. They are driven too deep, compressing the vent material. In my mind there should be a full 3/4 " gap for air across the whole ridge vent line.

On a brighter note the exposed wood in the photo turned out to be a leaf

Upon lifting a few shingles here and there looking at the nails, some are in at a slight angle with the head just slightly protruding on one side of the nail head. Maybe about 1/16". Could be some that are worse.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

exactly what i`m talking about w/the nails,and ridge vent(nails shouldn`t compress the ridge vent,water will go to the depressed area/nail


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

That is one of the main reasons I use the Shingle Vent II, because of the rigid surface to nail in.

On the roll out products, there is too much opportunity to under drive the nail or over drive the nail, mostly by the common monkey shinglers though, which unfortunately is too often the case.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I got other problems to. I think leaks waiting to happen. Without trying to hard I found nails right where 2 shingles butt together. Seems to me water can penetrate and rust the nail.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6810/suc30010te0.jpg


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Doc, you have got to read this. Does this narrative describe the shingle installers on your home roofing project?

*Anyone who brags about how "Fast" they can get the job done worries me right off the bat, because I have to wonder, "What Items Are Being Short-Cutted And What Attention To Details Are Being Ommitted?"*

As a contractor for nearly 24 years so far, I am always amazed at how speed on a project impresses some homeowners, when in actuality, the 30 plus year duration and potential functional life of the newly installed roofing shingles are more dependant upon the attention, care and quality of workmanship during the initial installation process. 

Here is a very informative piece of reading material I came across recently while searching through my saved Word Documents. This absolutely is the best description of the all too common "Shinglers" who pretend to actually be "Roofers."


*Jack Rabbit Roofers:*

Have you ever observed a jack rabbit? They are extremely fast as they hop across the prairie pausing occasionally to catch their breath. I have applied that term to many roofers based on similar movements while operating roofing nail guns. While speed is important in doing any job, it is not the most important facet of a job. Safety and accuracy rank much higher than speed in my book when you are trying to achieve a quality job. Nearly all roofers know the correct placement of nails in a roofing shingle but in real practice very few actually get the nails in the right spots. Every shingle wrapper gives explicit instructions about this. So what is the problem?

Roofers are normally compensated by the amount of shingles nailed down on a given job. The quicker they can nail them down, the more they make. After all, the roof LOOKS the same whether it is nailed correctly or incorrectly. Shingles that are incorrectly installed tend to develop problems later such as blow-off in high winds, slippage in hot weather and leaks.

Manufacturers will not warrant their shingles if they are installed incorrectly. The correct nailing pattern is four nails per shingle with the two outside nails being within one inch of each end and the other two being evenly spaced between the ends. Six nails are advised for areas noted for high winds. The nails should not be too high on the shingle or too low. On a dimensional shingle, it is imperative to locate the nails along ‘the nailing strip’, a one inch wide portion of the shingle. Jack Rabbit roofers cannot possibly hit this nailing strip on a consistent basis and still maintain speed. Jack Rabbit roofers tend to ‘spray’ their nails. They sound impressive and fast while working but the actual truth is they are doing a very poor job.

I have had many job applicants who boast, “I can nail down four square an hour.” I would never hire someone like this. I look for quality rather than quantity. It is better to do a job right and have it last than to do it wrong and have problems with it later. On three-tab roofs, many roofers will only use three nails per shingle to gain speed but the roofs show lifting just a few years later.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Before I hired this roofing company I explained to him that I was concerned about the use of the nail guns because of the speed which they could be used, and my concern for getting the nails down square, flush to the roof line. Naturally, he assured me that it would be done. In business for over 24 years and no complaints that I could find, I gave him the job.

Even I know the butt joints of the shingles come 1/4 1/2 3/4 so you don't nail at those points. When I see him I can tell you exactly how it will go down. Don't worry it's minor. I'll send my guy over to fix it. How will he fix it I will ask? Well, well see when he gets there. A hour or two latter the man will tell me I'm all set. I'll go up find more nails at butt joints (go ballistic) and call the owner, get phone mail, leave message, while sitting on pins & needles.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> I got other problems to. I think leaks waiting to happen. Without trying to hard I found nails right where 2 shingles butt together. Seems to me water can penetrate and rust the nail.
> 
> http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6810/suc30010te0.jpg




I came across this every once and a while. I would always cut the shingle back. I guess some people just tar over the nail heads.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> That is one of the main reasons I use the Shingle Vent II, because of the rigid surface to nail in.
> 
> On the roll out products, there is too much opportunity to under drive the nail or over drive the nail, mostly by the common monkey shinglers though, which unfortunately is too often the case.
> 
> Ed



Ed 

Have you ever tried OC ventsure rolled ridge vent. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this product.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Malcolm, Explain please, cut the shingle back? I would like to see such shingles pulled and replaced properly. Is that doable, or is it a pipe dream because they would make things worse. Tar over them is not a option, sooner or latter they will leak. I need to resolve this while it's fresh. A year or two goes by and I may lose all recourse. 

Ridge vent is really no big deal. $100.00 and I can buy another and put it on myself. Even I can do a better job with that then they did.

Ed, I may be your field tester for the DCI ridge vent sooner than either of us thought. :laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

On a house that I am doing a temperature before and after experiment on in the near future, DCI wanted to see if I would use their Smart Ridge Vent product, but I already had the specifications signed and agreed to for the Shingle Vent II. 

I'm not about to start switching the specifications post signature.

Doc, the shingles should be removed and replaced and not tarred or caulked if they are in line with the side butt joints. The nails need to be carefully removed from the shingles above the ones in question to remove the incorrectly installed shingle.

And yes, you definitely will be able to to a better job on the ridge vent yourself, but calculate how many hours including all set up time and clean up time and loading materials plus the actual installation time and multiply those hours by $ 75.00 per hour to see what the proper installation time should cost for doing that. Be sure to use long enough nails. I use 2 1/2" hand roofing nails for all of my ridge vents and ridge vent cap shingles.




Malcolm, I used the vent sure, but I mistakenly called it something else in another professional forum I participate in. In the occasion I used it, it worked fine, which was for a vaulted ceiling room with a hip roof over head.

I will re-edit to add the link to the photos of that installation end result. The in job photos are not scanned in yet.

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38556



Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Anyone have any ideas what to do if the roofer don't want to pull improper nailed shingle? :whistling2:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Certified letter to him showing the manufacturers nailing specifications. 

Maybe e-mail a question with the photo to the manufacturer and get their warranty response as additional ammunition.

You still owe the final retention amount if I remember correctly, so hold that up for him to complete the job in a reasonable time, from one to four weeks, to allow for him to schedule a 1/2 day for repair and further inspe3ctions.

If he does not agree to this, then alert him that the remaining funds will be used to pay for repairing his faulty workmanship.

First be nice and get both of you guys on the same page though. Make sure that the agreed upon remediation work is in writing with time frames and consequences if they are not abided to.

Ed


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> Malcolm, Explain please, cut the shingle back? I would like to see such shingles pulled and replaced properly. Is that doable, or is it a pipe dream because they would make things worse. Tar over them is not a option, sooner or latter they will leak. I need to resolve this while it's fresh. A year or two goes by and I may lose all recourse.
> 
> Ridge vent is really no big deal. $100.00 and I can buy another and put it on myself. Even I can do a better job with that then they did.
> 
> Ed, I may be your field tester for the DCI ridge vent sooner than either of us thought. :laughing:



It should say on your bundle wrappers how far nails should be from the side laps. My OC shingles say that there should be a minimum of 2 inches from any side lap. I was using a 6 1/2 inch offset. If the end of a shingle hit one of the nails on the shingle below, I would just cut it back a little. Architectural shingles are very forgiving with the offsets used. He will be able to pull some shingles and work in new shingles to not hit the nail line. I did that once on one I missed.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Great idea. he's already got all the $$$.

I'll go up tomorrow & look at each and every shingle. I am not hopeful though, based on the 3 such butt joints with nails in the center just like the photo posted. I was only snooping up there if you know what I mean. I will photo and document each and every one. Even if it takes all day. 

Love the letter and let GAF know. I '[ll go to GAF site to see what they say about 6 nail shingling.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> Great idea. he's already got all the $$$.
> 
> I'll go up tomorrow & look at each and every shingle. I am not hopeful though, based on the 3 such butt joints with nails in the center just like the photo posted. I was only snooping up there if you know what I mean. I will photo and document each and every one. Even if it takes all day.
> 
> Love the letter and let the GAF know.


Also, take a look at how far his offsets are. When you look at one side lap for the nail being there, look at the shingles directly above it and figure out how far the side lap lines are. You will have a bigger problem if this lines align.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

:huh:Not sure that I follow you on that. Sorry


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I think he means to make sure the side butt joint of the shingles from the next row higher do not align with the side butt joint of the shingle just below it.

Also, he was not referring to 6 nail shingling, but instead to the distance of an offsett he seperated each new row of shingles by.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I'll need to get over to the rake to see that best. I think. I will try to see just went down.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

What Ed said


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

consumer protection ,better business bureau,your roof is garbage if they didn`t nail it right---to qualify ed`s retort on speed,Iam one of the fastest installers you will find,butquality to detail is most important,it is repetitious work and you can get a system but I have allways told anyone I`ve taught QUALITY COMES FIRST ,WE`LL WORRY ABOUT SPEED LATER!!!!!!NAILING AND SHINGLE SET PATTERNS ARE PARAMOUNT TO A PROPER INSTALLATION,PEOPLE SAY THEY DO A BETTER JOB BECAUSE OF MORE NAILS,WHEN IN REALITY IT`S WHERE YOU PUT THEM THAT`S MOST IMPORTANT!!!---WHEN YOU`RE DONE W/ THE LAWSUIT dOC,GIVE ME A CALL,I`M OFF TO WORK:wink:


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

TRG is right on point with the nails having to be in the exact right place. You can't go higher or lower. It is extremely hard to hit this nail line on some of these architectural shingles. If you have some scrap pieces, turn the shingle on its side. Your will see where the shingle is double layered at the nail line. The worst possible place to nail the shingle would be right above the double lap where it transitions into single layer (overlap). From the photo you posted it looks like that is where your roofers nailed yours. If you can post a clearer pic of the nails, it would be easier to tell. That is why GAF created this high nailing area for sloppy roofers. It is actually better to high nail the shingle than to nail a little too high if that makes sense. This is how GAF shingles come in my area. I'm guessing it can be attributed to the high winds in my area. There are probably a lot of blow offs from improperly placed nails.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Here is another. Looks a bit high on this one.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Real high off the mark into the single layer. Broke through shingle. Did not take long to find just poking around abit. Matbe 5 mins. Lotsa nails at butt joints, some on the line most not. Called roofer left msg insisting he call me tonite. But you know what, I am not optimistic with regard to getting this fix. There are so many badly nailed shingles I can't see just pulling them. I think it all needs be done over. It will take a court of law to do that.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Yeah, if those were OC, they would be nailed in the overlap area. My neighbors house was done the exact same way; they nailed it in the overlap. If they are going to be that sloppy, they should just high nail it another inch or so. GAF says that nailing the overlap is the worst possible location for a fastener. I can't believe your shingles haven't sealed yet. I can't even pull mine up after a couple of days without causing damage. That roofer needs to get there asap before it seals down. I bet you he is just going to want to put a dab of tar on those nail heads. I have to admit that I did that on one or two nails. They weren't directly on the side laps, but they were too close to the 2 in allowance OC recommended. Therefore, I just put a dab of tar on it for good measure. I wouldn't do that if it fell right on the side laps like yours do.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

He just called me. Told me to place nails where GAF says he would need a tape measure. Good Lord my stomachs in knots. He said I'm worrying to much and I won't have problem. Dos not want me up there breaking seals. Won't do anything about it other taking a look , dabbing silicon on a few that I can show him. Says thats the way he dos all his house and never had a problem. 

If I fight this it will cost more than the roof.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> He just called me. Told me to place nails where GAF says he would need a tape measure. Good Lord my stomachs in knots. He said I'm worrying to much and I won't have problem. Dos not want me up there breaking seals. Won't do anything about it other taking a look , dabbing silicon on a few that I can show him. Says thats the way he dos all his house and never had a problem.
> 
> If I fight this it will cost more than the roof.



You don't need a tape measure. You can get in in the general vicinity. There isn't a roof out there where every shingle is nailed precisely to spec. The reason the nails fell out of line (I bet) is because he chose a different offset than the manufacturer suggested. If you look on the bundle wrapper it will tell you the suggested offset and the nail placement. If you follow these two things your nails shouldn't get lined up with your side laps.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

I looked up the install instructions for your shingles. They are very forgiving as far as nail placement goes.

The outer nails should be within 1/2" and 2 1/2" of the sides The inside nails should be within 11 5/8" and 14 5/8" for the sides. That is a 3 inch forgiveness on the inside nails and two inches on the outer nails. I really don't think you need a tape measure for that. This is with a 4 nail pattern. If you went 6 nails, it would be a little different. Nevertheless, you wouldn't need a tape measure. I think anybody could eyeball that. 

Here are how your offsets would have went. I believe the sell metric size in your area.

-First course should have been a full shingle at the rake
-Second course he should have trimmed off 6" off the first shingle at the rake
-third course trim 11"
-forth course triim 17"
-repeat (starting with full shingle)

I'm not saying it would line up perfectly without nails lining up with side laps. I really didn't do the math, but it worked with my OC shingles (they provided different number). The only time nails line up was when I deviated from the suggested offsets.

With GAF specs, I could nail every shingle within their specs. OC wanted it at 1" from the corners and 13" from the corners. They didn't really provide a tolerance. I know some nails drifted +/- 1 inch.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles doc, but you know more than the average homeowner knows if that is any consolation. I never told my neighbor that his shingles were nailed on the overlap. I didn't want to upset him or stir up any trouble. As far as he is concerned, he has a professionally done roof. Sometimes it sucks to be so informed. At this point, it is either legal recourse or dabbing sealant on those nail heads. I would at least do that. It would be better than leaving them exposed. Water travels down the side laps. If I lived in your area, I would come down and help you fix it one day.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)




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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Looks like the nail can be within the range of 5 3/4 and 6 1/4 in from from the bottom of the shingle. GAF is very forgiving. It was a PITA to install mine. Next time I might look into GAF more closely.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, now that I think about it those are the same guide lines as OC. The nail line is placed at 6 1/8 inch. If you nailed above 6 1/4 you were in the overlap. If you nailed it at 5 3/4 inch the bottom of the nail head would show. I can see why companies like Malarkey, OC, and GAF are giving the alternative of nailing high.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


>



That nail looks like it is nailed in the overlap. You can see how the bottom of the nail head looks like it is already tearing into the shingle. If wind storm hits, there will be no tensile strength (or very minimal).


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Malcolm, Thank you for your sage council. I appreciate the warm tone. I think you brought the first smile in two days. Other friends have told me not to pursue it with the roofer. Even if I won a judgment I may not ever see any money. 
Best course would be as you suggest cover them with a sealant. The shingle butts are very close together so ultra violet most likely won't get to attack the sealant. I can go into attic during a rain and seek out leaks, attending to them as needed. Once again I wish to thank you and all those who have imparted their knowledge and experience in a effort to help me. 

I was hesitant to being my sad experience to the board. Not easy to tell all Ive been a fool. Took a bit of courage yes, But in truth I was compelled to do so because if someone else could learn from my mistake then that would be a very good thing indeed. Thus making the board a better place.

The last photo shows a nail high, causing a depression around it where water will most certainly gravitate to. Also shows the corner of the shingle on top of the shingle to the right, thus it sits high.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?Silo=RES1&WS=GAF

Click on:

-Shingles styles and colors in the left hand panel
-Choose your state
-scroll down to the bottom until you get to timberline ultras
-click on "click here for product details"
-Scroll down and click

"For shingles made in Tampa and Mobile plants, NOT to be installed in Dade County, Fl"

Just click on it when you get to the page. It explains where the overlay area is. I sometimes have a hard time explaining things. Well, my old 3 tabs were nailed horribly. They just nailed it wherever. I don't even think they cared how many nails went into each shingle. Some of them had 3 nails per shingle and some had six. I know for a fact there are a lot worse jobs out there. You just have the luxury of having pro roofers that do it correctly inform you on proper procedure (ED and TRG). I have looked at a lot of new construction, reroofs, etc. while doing my research and they were all nailed a little high like yours. I can't imagine that all these huge subdivisions have substantial damage. I would do like you said. Maybe get some of that UV protected sealant and hand it to the roofer to seal those nails. Check it every year for leaks. In a month, you won't even be thinking about your roof. I don't think you have been had. A lot of people in my area would like a roof like yours believe it or not.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Roofer says he won't do it, unless I want to pay him. I understand now about the overlap. When nailed high there is nothing under the shingle to support it. So it easy for the nail to tear into the shingle. I the last photo you can't see it but the nail has tore into it.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

many nails are less than 1/2" from the butt.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> many nails are less than 1/2" from the butt.


Wow, you mean he nailed it right on the edge of the shingle. Was this guy fast? He seemed to let these nails fly.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

His crew of 2 were so fast I had to intervene. I told them slow down it's not a race. I'm telling you it's a real mess, what they did. I just want it to go away.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

well I would think you`re gonna be suing for a lot more due to aggravation,call gaf,send them pictures showing where the shingles are nailed and ask them if they are gonna back his warranty on the roofing,when you get their answer you should have all the ammo you need for your lawsuit,go for the gusto!-going to bed long day tomorrow again-feel free to e-mail me doc if you want-it`s in my profile


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

YOUM DO NOT PAY GOOD MONEY FOR CRAP,AND SAY OH WELL,THIS IS THE COMPLAXCENCY THAT MAKES THESE PROBLEMS EASIER FORR THESE GUYS AND WORSE FOR ED AND I,YOUM MEAN THIS GUY IS STILL GONNA SAY ,NEVER HAD A PROBLEM,STUFF IT UP THE NEXT GUY`S BUTT,AND YOU WILL ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN:"ALL IT TAKES FOR EVIL TO WIN ,IS FOR GOOD MEN TO SIT BACK AND DO NOTHING":furious:


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

QUOTE FROM GAF WARRANTY...GAF will not compensate you for damage to your shingles or roof from anything other than an inherent defect in your shingles, such as:

improper fastening of your shingles or application not in strict accordance with GAFMC's printed application instructions.

I will send GAF photos so they can decline warranty.

This is taking a lot of energy from me. Sapping my resolve. I want to fight for what's right. Not sure I'm up for it.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> QUOTE FROM GAF WARRANTY...GAF will not compensate you for damage to your shingles or roof from anything other than an inherent defect in your shingles, such as:
> 
> improper fastening of your shingles or application not in strict accordance with GAFMC's printed application instructions.
> 
> ...



The only thing you want to make sure of is that this guy has the assets to pay the judgment. Winning your case is one thing and collecting is another. I'm hoping this guy does everything by the book business wise and has assets you could go after. I feel for you Doc. I just don't want GAF having a claim on file that could lead to a future denial claim. I hope that makes sense. I'm pretty sure GAF is going to say that the nails are fastened improperly. You should check with you clerk of court to see what steps you need to go through (paperwork, costs, etc.). First, do research on whether you want to bring up a lawsuit. Then collect your evidence. A part of me wants you to stick it to this guy. I just don't want it to jeopardize your state of health. I know sometimes no amount of money is worth that. I hope you get what you want. I can't believe this guy won't even fix is screw ups (seal the nails). I probably would go after this guy, if I was going through this issue.

My first step would be to file a complaint with the BBB and the FTC. I know he won't do anything, but at least your making records or trying to resolve the issue. I have a feeling like it will be hard to get any money from this guy.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

The clock is ticking on this. Winter is closing in. In order to pursue this by legal means I would need to leave it as is. Otherwise risk him saying I caused problems with his good roof. That I ignored his instructions to leave it alone and let it the glue seal.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Send the photos and a letter to GAF asking if the installation would be warranted per their own specifications.

Take photos with a tape measure to accent the nailing pattern and to also show how close to the side lap or butt edges they have been placed.

Send the letter certified with a return receipt requested.

Send a certified letter to the roofing contractyo and give him X amount of days to remedy the situation to bring it up to manufacturers specifications, or else you will be compelled to pursue all legal options available.

Get a written estimate, which you should pay for, from a GAF Certified Contractor for providing the proper repairs. He should be compensated for his evaluation time, as this will not be a desireable situation for him to get involved in. Or, contact a certified home inspector for a roofing inspection and the potential for damages yet unfolded.

Advise yoour attorney general, the states attorney office, the state licensing board, the city building inspection department, the BBB and anyone else you can think of tho use as a threat to hold over his head until an agreement on the repairs comes into place.

Place a time limit on all of this.

Small claims court is a very simple and inexpensive process in most states, and has a decent enough amount as the maximum dollar amount to probably allow you to pay another contractor to do the repairs as GAF recommends.

Follow through!!!

Have your attorney do you a favor and send him a notice of the intent to institute legal action against him for not following the manufacturers instructions.

Place a sign on your front lawn, stating NOT to use XXXXX Roofing Company.

Create a flyer to hand out to the local roofing supply houses stating the dishonorable and unethical treatment this contractor is providing you with.

Insert a photo of the exposed nails.

Ask; Is this the proper way to nail asphalt shingles? There are XX number of exposed nails upon this contractors supposed completion of the project.

This contractor says this is the way they do it all the time. 

Are xx number of exposed nails supposed to be visible upon completion?

First send him a copy of the flyer and notify him that you will pass out hundreds of copies to all of the organizations you belong to and post them on the bulletin boards at all of the local grocery stores and all of the other locations previously mentioned.

Maybe then, he will see you are serious about having your roof installed the "Right Way."

Be his biggesty nightmare and don't go away until he accomodates your demands.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

ED, I'll posture a bit when he comes by Friday afternoon or Saturday. I will email photos to GAF and print out their reply. If needed will also USPS mail them, certified signature required. I'll pursue it for a while and find out for sure what my legal options are.:thumbsup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

One more thought regarding the photo shoot.

Take some yellow chalk and circle all of the areas where the nail placement is in question to the best of your ability. Number each one of them with the chalk.

Take a shot of all of the circles and the numbers individually, showing the measurements on the close up photos, so that someone does not imply that you are just reshooting the same few problem areas over and over again.

If it does go to small claims court, prior to any repairs done by you or another contractgor, take a video of the inspection you are doing, with a narrative added for dramatic effect, but keep the drama resonable.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Hears the story on the offsets: Factory states, full 6 12 17 Full, ! Heres what I found. imposible to tell for sure what end they started at.

1st full, 2nd 27& 1/2, 3rd 22, 4th, 10 consider this the right side rear on house.

Now going to the left side rear of house I have 22&1/4, 27&1/2, 34, 3, yes that is correct 3 inchs. see photo.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

3# piece has 2 nails next to each other holding it in. Here is another odd thing. Some shingles are 36" and some are 37". Whats up with that?. 

When the shingles were delivered they were paper bundles. But, they were short 16 bundles. So the oder went in for16 more bundles, only they don't deliver them here to my home. The roofer redirects them to his home stating he can bring them over in his truck. When he arrives there are only 9 bundles in his truck. The the color code is the same, but the shingles were wrapped in plastic.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

The english shingle is supposed to be 36 and 15/16 inchs.


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Looks like your area sells standard. My area sells only metric. Hopefully, you saved one of the bundle wrappers for install instructions. The 3 inch piece is the end of the coarse run. He started from the other end. My shingles allowed for offsets of 4" to 8". The important thing was to keep the side laps at least 4 inches away from one another (from course to course) and to not have nails within 2 inches of the side laps.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Malcolm, some shingles are 36" and some are 37". Do you know why that might be?


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## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> Malcolm, some shingles are 36" and some are 37". Do you know why that might be?



I don't know other than inconsistencies in the manufacturer process. My shingles were off here and there between bundles but never by more than a 1/4 inch. If they were metric it would have measured 39 3/8".


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

my standards measure 36 7/8x12 h,sounds like he did something different,maybe older shingles(probably since gaf recently switched to paper on all ,the color is always the same,what about the dates and batch/lot #s


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

the offsets don`t matter as much as the nail placement,typical 1)full,2)-7 1/2",3)-15",4)-22",5) back to full,but that is just for a random pattern appearance,a little different won`t matter as long as the ends are 6-7 " away from each other ,and nails are 5-6"away from the seams


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Well I just looked at every butt joint on the right rear quadrant of roof to see if there was a nail centered right below the butt joint seam. There 38 such nails. So I'm thinking there is something like 152 such nails over the whole roof. Some shingles actually overlap others.

Whoops! I did not look at the 3 rows closest to the eve, except what I could get to from the ladder. Tomorrow I will slide the ladder along to check those 3 rows.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

get GAF out to look ,and stop making such wide posts,they`re a p.i.t.a. to read


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Curling already?


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

that`s not curling,shingles get warped on pallet,should be smoothed when nailing,others need time for the sun to heat them up so they lay down


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

roger that


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Not that you are incorrect with some of your findings, but I would charge about $100,000 to do your roof with those shingles. GAF isn't the brand to use. The house is probably a pre-fab. And I wouldn't want someone looking over every square inch of my job. I don't want to sound like a donkey towards you, but maybe you could have done that simple roof yourself. Nothing negative intended.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Your point is well taken. I did think about doing it. The only thing I regret about inspecting the work is that I did it after he left & had the money. I should have been checking the sections right after being laid down. Then I could of got in his face to reaffirm the workmanship that was to be performed.
We went over it all before he started. 

When you do quality work you don't have to be concerned about someone looking over your job. 

I was not being horses caboose, just wanted what I paid for.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I understand.

I haven't had this problem myself with our work, but I have heard stories. I have heard of a few where the HO was so bad that the guy just walked off the job. These are just stories. I don't even know who the company could have been. It's just an FYI that a Contractor doesn't have to do your job if he doesn't want to. I'm speaking to everyone, not just the poster of this thread.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

nothing wrong w/ gaf,what`s wrong is the guy doing crap work!,leaving nails up,and when the guy checks it out,he finds nails located directly in the seams of the next course,doing the job right is what we`re supposed to do,doc doesn`t make himself out to be anything different than what he is (a semi-knowledgeable h/o that wants his job done properly),if the job was done properly doc would be shouting his praise from the rooftops,the guy opted to do a crap job,like none of us would accept on our homes,If you do a proper job,an educated customer will become your biggest cheerleader---let`s be realistic,the guys don`t even know where to nail the shingles--he doesn`t belong on any ones roof!


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

the roofing god said:


> nothing wrong w/ gaf,what`s wrong is the guy doing crap work!,leaving nails up,and when the guy checks it out,he finds nails located directly in the seams of the next course,doing the job right is what we`re supposed to do,doc doesn`t make himself out to be anything different than what he is (a semi-knowledgeable h/o that wants his job done properly),if the job was done properly doc would be shouting his praise from the rooftops,the guy opted to do a crap job,like none of us would accept on our homes,If you do a proper job,an educated customer will become your biggest cheerleader---let`s be realistic,the guys don`t even know where to nail the shingles--he doesn`t belong on any ones roof!


 
:thumbup: :thumbup: 

I second everything that John just stated. It is crud workers who do fast and chitty work which keeps the prices down and that does not allow for a quality contractor to typically be competitive in his bidding, if that is how he chooses to obtain his work.

Too often, a homeowner gets rose colored glasses put on when they decide on the "Not The Right Way" contractor, because they felt they could be thrifty and all of the additional services and technology were not warranted. 

I personally feel that the advent of almost all contractors subbing out the work is a primary reason for the decaying craftsmanship.

Ed


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

That skylight will leak like a sieve if that's wood I see. Hard to discern at the molecular level.
Did you hire one of your wife's relatives?
Ron


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

No, I don't believe so. One of your relatives perhaps? :jester:no it's not wood, it's a leaf.:laughing::yes:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)




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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I expect were gonna find out if the skylight leaks real soon. The storm coming up the coast could bring lots of rain. Skylight will be tested in combat with the weather.:yes:


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Docfletcher said:


> No, I don't believe so. One of your relatives perhaps? :jester:no it's not wood, it's a leaf.:laughing::yes:


Ouch!!
You know, if you spent half the time researching this company that you have complaining about the job they did, maybe you could have avoided this. But then we would have missed the granule by granule pictures posted every day.
Micro-mananging after the fact, is it better this way?

Ron

P.S. My grandmother could have done a better job.:laughing:


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Ron, You make the assumption that I did no research. That in itself is disturbing. I feel no need, nor shall I elaborate on such ignorance.

The purpose of the posting was to seek out a bit of advice, and show others the potential issues they may face when having their own roof replaced. Sure, I complained, no surprise there. Not like I was looking to the board for a refund. It wasn't easy for me to put all that up on the board and show my folly. Many would not.

Your comments seem somewhat sophomoric, and at times devious. With no constructive merit and certainly no redeeming quality. 

You are acrid in your retorts, and your purpose would seem to be to scoff and scold. 

Give my respects to your grandmother.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

yeah.ease up ron,he already took a direct hit,and is using his experience to enlighten others to the importance of choosing the right contractor:thumbsup:


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Okay, put the thesaurus away now. Wow! lol


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

With all due respect to Ron, I really coulda, shoulda, done things a whole lot differently. I'm sure he was only trying to give me a wake up call of sorts. I hope you all can understand I am somewhat sensitive to this whole mess I have gotten myself into. Ok, maybe a bit more then somewhat. :laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Doc,

I personally thank you foe bringing to light the portions of your contractual experience which may assist others in making a proper choice.

Remember the most important thing when hiring a contractor.

*Money is KING!!!* 

He who has the money is in the position of power. It is much harder to receive satisfaction for punch list concerns whent the check has already been delivered and cashed.

This is why I do an "In Job Evaluation Inspection For Customer Satisfaction", during the job in progress if it takes more than a couple of days and also an "End Of Job Inspection Evaluation For Customer Satisfaction" immediately upon completion before I even submit my final invoice.

It is actually the "In Job" inspection process which is most beneficial, because that one allows us to take care of any concerns and issues before they advance any futher.

Only upon acceptance of the "End Of Job Inspection", after we have received acknowledgement from the homeowner, do we feel entitled to request our due payment.

If all homeowners and contractors alike would utilize this very small process, most misunderstandings and quality control issues would never wind up being the end resultant product.

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Ed, that was very well said. Thanks!:yes:


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Malcolm said:


> Well, now that I think about it those are the same guide lines as OC. The nail line is placed at 6 1/8 inch. If you nailed above 6 1/4 you were in the overlap. If you nailed it at 5 3/4 inch the bottom of the nail head would show. I can see why companies like Malarkey, OC, and GAF are giving the alternative of nailing high.


Guys, I've been looking over all the posts. The nail line on these ultra shingles is at 5 3/8" which means even under the best nailing scenario the shingle above would only cover the center of the nail heads by 3/8". That's figuring for the called 5" exposure. 

Overlap area starts at 5 7/8" That only leaves a 1/2" sweet spot.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Yep, Timberlines have the smallest nailing area. Even though it is not a big difference from other brands, it is very noticeable when using them. I've noticed lately that Timberlines don't even show a nailing line. It's like it is barely noticeable.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

that`s enough


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Here is my temporary flash at the skylight. It goes under the shingles , then up and folded over the old flashing that was sticking up.
Iwas lucky to be able to slide it right under the shingles. They did not seal at all.

[


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

you should leave that roof alone!


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I will. Now that all the nail locations have been found.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

YOU SHOULDN`T HAVE PUT THAT METAL THERE EITHER:no:


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Why TRG? Might leak without it.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

i DOUBT IT,AND YOU`RE MESSING W/ THE EVIDENCE IF YOU GO AFTER HIM


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Thats no problem. It will slip out as easy as it went in. Just like a old sock. 

Thanks for watching out for me. I am considering the options available to pursue the matter.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Doc,

It looks as though you folded that even worse looking peice of flashing backwards onto the top of the original flashing apron metal and if so, you are not allowing the water to shed directly downward. It can only run to either the left or right side.

Let the original roofer come out and install the flashing correctly. All he had to do originally was to take the peice and open up the bend just a little bit and it would have fit snugly onto the top of the shingles even though they are architectural shingles. 

By the way, what is that shiny spot, which looks like sheet metal to the left of the skylight in your most recent photo?

Ed


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

If I didn't fold it over the water would go in between the the old and temp new flashing. Even when the old flashing was down and under the shingles the water still only went left to right. The water will go left or right with both pieces now. the only difference being the the new temp flashing also runs under the shingles.

I will send you a email with further particulars.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

I was wondering about that too! lol


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I will copy you on that :laughing:


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

That extra flashing is supposed to be there. It looks like an andersen window if I'm not mistaken. There should be another piece of flashing under that one. Take that ugly piece of metal out and leave it alone. If it leaks, call the roofer back. That will probably MAKE it leak if you leave it in there.

Boy I can tell some stories of stuff we have fixed for HO's that think they are helping something and it makes it worse. Then they say "ya, look at that. That's what the last roofers did"


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

The flashing piece thats sticking up in the air at the top of the skylight in some of the earlier photo is indeed supposed to be there. Only it is supposed to be under the shingles. There was no way to ( And I wouldn't want to ) get it back in place without pulling the shingle. So as temporary measure I slid a piece of flashing in, up and over. Effectively making it identical in function , if not the aesthetic form, to the way it was prior to the new roof. Plus I can slip it back out easily. 

It won't leak! :no:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

no it`s not supposed to be underneath,that`s to keep leaves and debris from the juncture of the shingles and flashing


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

the roofing god said:


> no it`s not supposed to be underneath,that`s to keep leaves and debris from the juncture of the shingles and flashing


Yes, this is what I was trying to say. I normally do not install that piece because it is useless.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

If you look at photo 9 on page 1 you can see the underbelly of that piece sticking up. If that is not supposed to bend down flush to the roof line and be under the shingle what keeps the water from backing up onto the ice & water?

Also you can see it is not the finish color standing up like that. If I understand you gents correctly it's not really needed. If so I'll pull my flashing piece and just let the other stick up. 

A learning experience...:laughing:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

go to andersen.com and look at photos,the piece that goes underneath channels the water and has a reverse hem to keep the water out,read back doc you`ll see where i mentioned how the ice&water shield should have been run up onto the curb on all 4 sides to back up the step,and counter flashing,usually after the flashing is installed we`ll cut a strip to seal the top of the reverse hem onto the roof


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Ok I see what you mean. The roofer told me he was not concerned with that piece. way back when he said ...Oh I know the skylight is done right. I did that myself, so I know it's right.

I took my piece out last night before the rain came. I did not notice any leaks. Nor do I expect any either. We shall see after a while I guess.


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