# secrets to getting lug nuts off?



## Bondo

> Using brute force seems just to strip the bolts.


Ayuh,... Your lug wrench is junk or worn out...

A socket, breaker bar, 'n length of pipe will pop 'em off....

Personally, my air impact does a 'ell of a job....


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## fabrk8r

The secret is to always use anti-seize when installing lug nuts. But, since it's too late for that, you could try using a 4-way lug wrench, if you're not already. The next thing would be an impact wrench, either pneumatic or electric.

What vehicle are these on? Some older vehicles (Ford for one) used left-hand threads on the left wheels and right-hand threads on the right side. Their thinking was that the wheel's rotation would tend to keep the nuts tight.


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## phantasm72

fabrk8r said:


> The secret is to always use anti-seize when installing lug nuts. But, since it's too late for that, you could try using a 4-way lug wrench, if you're not already. The next thing would be an impact wrench, either pneumatic or electric.
> 
> What vehicle are these on? Some older vehicles (Ford for one) used left-hand threads on the left wheels and right-hand threads on the right side. Their thinking was that the wheel's rotation would tend to keep the nuts tight.


its a 2001 neon... hmmm... that might be a reason, one side I couldnt budge a single one, might of been just tightening them more :icon_redface:
but yeah, I think my lug wrench is crap... its just one of those L-shaped ones, too much pressure on the handle and it has a tendency to screw...

Is the average electric impact wrench good enough for lug nuts?
I pretty much thought only pneumatic would have enough power...


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## Steeler99

you could try spraying pb blaster all over them and let em sit for awhile, I used a long pipe with a half inch socket when I did my boat trailer that I bought, broke 7 out of twenty...broke 5 before I used the pb blaster on em


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## Steeler99

oh yeah, I used a plain ole propane torch to heat them up...took about 10 minutes a lug, but it did work.....whenever you think you have heated it long enough, keep the torch on it....you almost want it to be red hot and glowing


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## ukrkoz

well, sounds like you have wrong lug nuts installed. stupid it may sound.:whistling2: i had a Ranger with same issue.
lug nuts should roll on nice and easy, then gently tightened and torqued to about 90 f/lb
unfortunately, there's so many different style nuts, and various thread pitch and size, that sometimes life happens.
otherwise, you have bent studs. the only way i see it done is either damage to hub/studs, maybe due to some curb driving or such, or lug nuts were loose when wheels were installed last time, and simple wobble in the wheel on studs damaged them.
studs are not that bad to replace. IF YOU HAVE ACCESS WINDOW FOR IT IN DUST COVER. or hub is not covering heads, then hub has to be removed, and replaced. on some front wheel drive cars there's no way to remove studs otherwise. 

oh, and i vote fro breaker bar and long handle extension with 1/2 inch head and proper socket. 600 f/lb power tool will not even undo regular, well fitting nuts. not many electrical ones go higher. you are looking into 1200 pound and higher impact wrench and a very good compressor to make it work. drive to a tire shop and ask them to break them loose for you.


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## Steeler99

yeah, normally I wouldn't suggest the breaker bar idea, I only suggested that because I think he's already broken several of them...and if he breaks a few more, it wouldn't matter. He's probably going to have to pull the rotors anyway to replace the ones he broke.

He probably can't drive to a tire shop being that he can't get the remaining lugs out and as I said, I think he's already broken a few. 

In my case where I did as I said, it was a boat trailer that was used in the ocean where the salt water corroded it horribly...and whoever had it before me, didn't use any antiseize. There was no way to get them off otherwise


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## ukrkoz

phantasm72 said:


> *Out of 10, I was able to crack 3*... Using brute force seems just to *strip the bolts*. And yes, they are well sprayed down with an anti-seize spray...


 
hey, phantasm, why don't you clarify this? as there's concern about BROKEN studs, not just stripped. for a Neon, it'll drive around to a tire shop on 3 per wheel. 

stripped threads=wrong thread lug nuts forced on some time in the past. 

btw, those are not alloy wheels, by any chance? those are notorious about sucking lug nuts into rims and them getting jammed. they have special lug nuts for alloys, regular ones will get stuck to the point of snapping studs. unfortunately, alloy lug nuts are expensive, so some cheat out of this using regular lug nuts.


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## Bigplanz

A couple of thoughts...
I can get most lugnuts off with an electric impact wrench rated at 240 ft-lbs. Those I can't get off with that I can get off with a 25 inch long, 1/2 inch breaker bar (plus 200 lb me standing on it). I've never been able to get all the lugnuts off with just the L shaped tool that comes with the car. 

Be careful using heat on a wheel with an inflated tire on it!! They can get hot enough to start burning inside the tire and literally explode. This happens more often on large trucks with multipart rims, but can happen on a car tire too. Be sure to deflate any tire before put a torch on a wheel.


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## Giles

In most cases, the lug nuts were installed and tightened with an impact wrench. I am a mechanic and I NEVER tighten lug nuts with an impact wrench. I run them up and slightly tighten them EQUALLY. Then I go back and hand tighten each nut and sometimes use a torque wrench. 
I would recommend removal with an impact wrench.
On a regular type lug nut, with taper, notice the surface area of the taper and you can realize why they are hard to remove. You must overcome the friction contact of the taper, plus the flex of the steel rim, if that be the case.


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## MikeKy55

Use a six point impact socket. 12 point sockets are going to round off the nuts.


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## Bigplanz

MikeKy55 said:


> Use a six point impact socket. 12 point sockets are going to round off the nuts.


If you round one off, you have then entered a whole new dimension of suck.


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## sciron

The secret is not having them put on too tight. Make sure wherever you take your car for service that the lug nuts aren't put on with an impact wrench. If you don't have one, invest in a nice torque wrench and do it yourself

I've never used anti-seize on my lug studs and was told in High School auto shop that you shouldn't ever do that. I know a lot of people swear by it, but it's not recommended. Do a google search and you'll find dozens of threads telling you NOT to put anti seize on your studs because you can overtighten your lug nuts. I do put anti seize around the axle flange but never on the studs.


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## fabrk8r

It doesn't matter if you use anti-seize or pixie dust on your lug nuts, they won't be over-tightened if you use a torque wrench.

If you're afraid of using a speck of anti-seize (that's all it takes, by the way) at least use a dab of grease on the wheel studs.


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## phantasm72

Thanks for all the advice.
Ill definately upgrade my lug wrench and get a proper socket and bar
I ended up having to go down to the garage to get them off. Turns out, on one side, all five nuts we crossthreaded! Obviously I got the new guy when the tire was last removed.
But anyway, all is well now
Cheers!


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## Giles

phantasm72 said:


> Thanks for all the advice.
> Ill definately upgrade my lug wrench and get a proper socket and bar
> I ended up having to go down to the garage to get them off. Turns out, on one side, all five nuts we crossthreaded! Obviously I got the new guy when the tire was last removed.
> But anyway, all is well now
> Cheers!


I have had that happen before. Lesson learned for me. Any time I have a wheel removed--tire replacement---I instruct the store owner to not let his mechanic put the lugnut in the socket and install. If they are too lazy to start the nuts by hand, they don't need my business!
I have never had a complaint for this request.
About 6 or 8 years ago, I had all my tires balanced by a tire store that I was a longtime friend of the owner. He knew my instructions but my wife didn't remind him. Anyway, they broke TWO studs off and crossthreaded TWO more. The store owner told my wife they were that way when she came in
He told her there would be a charge of about $45.00 to replace them:furious: She called me and when I go there, from work, the s+++ hit the fan. 
Luckily I lived a short distance and drove home with THREE nuts tightened as good as possible. I made a tool to remove the studs and I haven't been back:thumbsup:
Just another reason I am a Do It Yourselfer:thumbup:


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## sciron

fabrk8r said:


> It doesn't matter if you use anti-seize or pixie dust on your lug nuts, they won't be over-tightened if you use a torque wrench.
> 
> If you're afraid of using a speck of anti-seize (that's all it takes, by the way) at least use a dab of grease on the wheel studs.


 

It DOES matter. 

The manufacturer specifies a certain required torque to achieve a specific clamping pressure. This torque specification is based on clean dry threads. Therefore, anything on the threads will change the clamping force based on the torque spec. Dirt, rust, oil, silicon, anti-seize, grease, and pixie dust will all change the clamping force at a specific torque regardless if you are using a torque wrench. You're not supposed to put it on.

I'm not afraid of using a "speck" of anti-seize, it's not recommended for you to put it on your lug studs and I gave this guy my advice not to do so. It seems that you are afraid I contradicted your advice since you had to resort to the "Pixie Dust" comment..


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## sciron

Giles said:


> If they are too lazy to start the nuts by hand, they don't need my business! Just another reason I am a Do It Yourselfer:thumbup:


 
I've been working on and restoring cars since the 1970's. This advice is how I'm teaching my son also. Always start critical fasteners by hand to make sure they are threaded properly. It's how I was taught as well.


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## beerdog

As stated use a 6pt socket, but get an impact grade. This will ensure you don't crack the socket.

Lug nuts should always be started by hand and finished with a manual torque wrench in a criss-cross pattern. On TV You will see auto assembly factories use power tools, but those are $20,000 servo motor controlled wrenches with constant data capture. BUT...they are still not as accurate as a good hand torque wrench.


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## beerdog

anti-sieze is mainly for disimiliar metals. Like when you put steel bolts in aluminum. I once got anti-sieze on my lug nuts by mistake and they all came loose within 24 hrs. I would be suprised if any manufacturer recommends doing this.


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## Bigplanz

Looks like somebody researched this anti-seize question quite a bit. Check out the links in this thread. Lot's more than you probably ever want to know. 

http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html


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## ukrkoz

so someone really forced them onto studs USING IMPACT WRENCH. 

can't do this by hand. phantasm, afraid, you really have to look into studs replacement now. if someone messed up lug nuts that bad, it WILL mess up studs either. that's why i like those cross shaped lug wrenches so much. hand start it, spin it on with wrench... 

FIVE studs for a neon? kidding me? tiny car...

anyhow. let me pour some oil into the impact wrench discussion fire here.

i have 1200 lb/f (yes, torque is measured in pounds per sq foot, not other way around) impact wrench and 60 something gallon compressor that cranks 120 psi. that impact wrench will NEVER tighten lug nuts well enough. i tried that when i first got it, and found that every single lug nut needs to be hand tightened thereafter, or they come loose. alloys, steelies, whatever, same result. elbow torque works the best so far. 

oh, i still say, you have wrong thread lugs, or simply bad quality ones. right pitch thread, poorly machined, cut through your studs. 

ok, now, not to foget to unsubsribe from this topic, ha-ha.


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## sciron

Bigplanz said:


> Looks like somebody researched this anti-seize question quite a bit. Check out the links in this thread. Lot's more than you probably ever want to know.
> 
> http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html


 
Thanks for the link... that's 7 minutes of my life I'll never get back. :001_unsure:


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## Leah Frances

I've changed more tires than I care to remember (mostly auto-crossing). With a decent jack and hand tools I can change all four in 20 minutes. With my handy-dandy impact wrenches (I've got a 12volt one and a high quality air-tool) I can only knock a few minutes off. Mostly they are good for breaking the lug nuts loose. For going back on, I ONLY use them on their LOWEST setting to spin the lugs finger tight; after hand-starting them, of course. And lastly, I ALWAYS torque to specs with a torque wrench.

All this being said. When I was putting snow tires on my subaru this fall I still managed to cross-thread two lug nuts. My local tire shop replaced the messed-up lugs and found that despite my best efforts the poor quality (aftermarket) lug nuts were causing the problem.


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## Firefighter3244

Since you got em off already I'll just say this,

Check to see if you have a Discount Tire near you, they have 800 in the US

They hand thread them at start, use a gun with a yellow stick that only
allows the gun to torque em to 60 ft lbs and then they use a good Ole 
Torque Wrench to manufacture specs....

Plus they have Free Tire repairs, And 4 tire rotations weather you bought the tires there or from somewhere else... 

I'm No Spam, Or troll... It's just a good place thats worth mentioning...


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## Steeler99

well, being that this generated far more posts than I could have ever imagined to see about lug nuts...I'll throw my opinion out for what it's worth. 

Hand tighten always, there's just no other way. You only see NASCAR do it because they're special lugs that are glued on the rim.

Antiseize, well, I don't use that on any vehicle studs...I've never had an issue removing lug nuts from a vehicle.

I do use it on my boat trailer, and used it quite heavily. That's only because it's in and out of saltwater and the corrosion that causes is unreal.


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## sciron

Steeler99 said:


> well, being that this generated far more posts than I could have ever imagined to see about lug nuts.


 
Proper Lug Nut assembly is serious stuff :whistling2:


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## Mort

ukrkoz said:


> yes, torque is measured in pounds per sq foot, not other way around


As long as we're splitting hairs, its pounds per linear foot, not per square foot. 

As a tire sales and service professional (I guess...), my professional opinion is that compressed air is the bomb. Some lug nuts require a bit more grunt to get off (pre-97 8-lug Fords that have rusted studs come to mind), but unless it is seriously cross threaded or against a soft aluminum wheel (2004-up F-150s), everything comes off quite easily. Anti-seize will not cause a wheel to fall off, if it did, we wouldn't use it. If you have had a wheel come off, chances are it was actually caused by:
- Not having the wheel mated to the hub when torquing;
- Using the wrong style of lugnuts (acorn with a ball-seat wheel, etc.);
- Having frost or ice on the wheel mating surface or the lug nut seats;

Also, I can't see how not hand threading the lugnuts first would make your life any easier. Sounds like a cross-thread waiting to happen.


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## beerdog

You always increase the risk of cross threading AND destroying the thread on an any threaded fastner when you start it with a power tool. Your reward is higher speed and better productivity. When you start by hand you get immediat feedback that you started crossthreading and will almost always stop. Plus, the human hand rarely poduces enough torque to destroy the thead. A 100ft-lb impact can easily run the thread down cross threaded. Is it worth risking that just to save a few seconds?


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## Bigplanz

I use my impact wrench mostly to get things off, rarely to put things on.


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## n0c7

Leverage. The cross bars you usually find in the trunk don't work, even low torque impacts struggle, high torque impacts strip. A really nice two foot long breaker bar with a 1/2" socket end(and preferably the black impact grade sockets on it). I live in northern Canada where our lugs take a beating through all four seasons and we never lube them up. The breaker bar is your savior.

I used to get so frustrated using normal sized ratchets and wrenches and I always used a full can of WD-40 and still stripped or broke something. Leverage, leverage, leverage... even on rusty suspension! I have a compressor with an impact and I'll still use my breaker bar before I whip out the impact.


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## Bigplanz

I learned a long time ago that the tire tools that the car comes with are useless. I keep a 1/2 inch, 25 inch long breaker bar and some 6 point deep well impact sockets in the van. I've had to stand on the breaker bar a couple of times, but I've never failed to get one off.


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