# Patio Flat Rubber Roof installed, and gutter cleaning - ripped off?



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Looks like APP Modified Bitumin roof. No 'bleed-out' on the seams. 'Fish-mouths' in the seams too.
Not a great looking job. Daylight pix, and close-ups would also be helpful. Any wrappers around with brand names or other ID? What kind of insulation debris can you find? Fiberboard? Styrofoam?


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

That's a pretty bad job. Frank is right.. APP modified bitumen, details are not right. I am gonna bet that your roof will fail and leak in a short period of time. I doubt that they installed the 15 year specificatgions. 

I would not be happy with that job at all.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

I just talked with the roofer about how bad it looks. He said that's the way that rubber roofs are and most people don't care because it's up high.

Looks like I'm screwed on the roof itself. I have no way of proving it's a bad job.

As for the gutters not being cleaned as promised, and the glue that dripped down onto the side roof flashings, he's coming out tomorrow to correct that.

What exactly are 'fish mouths' and 'bleed out'? If you were in my shoes, what would you say to this guy tomorrow when he shows?


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

First off, this is not a rubber roof. This is a modified bitumen roof. It is made of polymer modified asphalt (bitumen). If he doesn't know this, then he has no business working on roofs.

Fishmouths are areas in the seam which are not properly bonded... sticking up, not sealed... like a fish's mouth popping open.

Bleedout is the bitumen which runs out of the seam, sealing the sheets together, and is required for successful application.

The guter detail worries me because it appears that they may have just run the first sheet with a little overhang, but does not appear sealed at the gutter, which is a critical roof area. 

I would read the proposal and make sure that it says that your roof will be installed to industry standards and hold him to it.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Something else concerns me Aaron. That burn trail at the seams. It's mighty even. I've never seen it looks that even, unless the edges only were torched. 
No bleed out, and no sign the torch was waved from side to side when heating the roll evenly.
http://docserver.nrca.net/pdfs/technical/479.pdf


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

You could be right, Frank, although it looks like it could also be a situation whereas the rolls were cold, and the roofer didn't know what to do in this situation.

Either way, I wouldn't pay for that crap.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

AaronB said:


> First off, this is not a rubber roof. This is a modified bitumen roof. It is made of polymer modified asphalt (bitumen). If he doesn't know this, then he has no business working on roofs.
> 
> Fishmouths are areas in the seam which are not properly bonded... sticking up, not sealed... like a fish's mouth popping open.
> 
> ...


This is why many roofers call it a rubber roof,
*A **polymer is a large molecule (macromolecule) composed of repeating structural units typically connected by covalent chemical bonds. While polymer in popular usage suggests plastic, the term actually refers to a large class of natural and synthetic materials with a wide variety of properties, including properties typically associated with plastics.*
*Because of the extraordinary range of properties accessible in polymeric materials,[2] they play an essential and ubiquitous role in everyday life[3]—from plastics and elastomers on the one hand to natural biopolymers such as DNA and proteins that are essential for life on the other. A simple example is polyethylene, whose repeating unit is based on ethylene (IUPAC name ethene) monomer. Most commonly, as in this example, the continuously linked backbone of a polymer used for the preparation of plastics consists mainly of carbon atoms. However, other structures do exist; for example, elements such as silicon form familiar materials such as silicones, examples being silly putty and waterproof plumbing sealant. The backbone of DNA is in fact based on a phosphodiester bond, and repeating units of polysaccharides (e.g. cellulose) are joined together by glycosidic bonds via oxygen atoms.*
*Natural polymeric materials such as shellac, amber, and natural rubber have been in use for centuries. Biopolymers such as proteins and nucleic acidscellulose, which is the main constituent of wood and paper.* play crucial roles in biological processes. A variety of other natural polymers exist, such as 
*The list of synthetic polymers includes synthetic rubber, Bakelite, neoprene, nylon, PVC, polystyrene, polyethylene, polypropylene, polyacrylonitrile, PVB, silicone, and many more.*
*Polymers are studied in the fields of polymer chemistry, polymer physics, and polymer science.*
The main manufacturer of it in my area is Rubberroid.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

AaronB said:


> You could be right, Frank, although it looks like it could also be a situation whereas the rolls were cold, and the roofer didn't know what to do in this situation.
> 
> Either way, I wouldn't pay for that crap.


The looks of the job doe's not set well with me either, better pics would be nice.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

tinner666 said:


> Something else concerns me Aaron. That burn trail at the seams. It's mighty even. I've never seen it looks that even, unless the edges only were torched.
> No bleed out, and no sign the torch was waved from side to side when heating the roll evenly.
> http://docserver.nrca.net/pdfs/technical/479.pdf


I have torn off a dozen mod's less than ten years old to find they only torched the laps and eaves/rakes.
Hard to say from those evening time pics tho.

The lifting "to me" looks like a wrinkled base sheet, that would also cause areas to fill as they are lifting/floating like the poster talks about along the gutter edge.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Slyfox said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> The main manufacturer of it in my area is Rubberroid.


Are you sure its not Ruberoid, as in by GAF? (One b?)

I don't care that most roofers cannot distinguish that the catchy name of Ruberoid makes them think it is rubber... It simply is not. It is a polymer modified asphalt bitumen. 

Just because there is a polymer chain that modifies the physical characteristics, this does not make it rubber. Ruber, yes, but not rubber.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

AaronB said:


> Are you sure its not Ruberoid, as in by GAF? (One b?)
> 
> I don't care that most roofers cannot distinguish that the catchy name of Ruberoid makes them think it is rubber... It simply is not. It is a polymer modified asphalt bitumen.
> 
> Just because there is a polymer chain that modifies the physical characteristics, this does not make it rubber. Ruber, yes, but not rubber.


LOL, yeah I meant one B.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

mark2741 said:


> I just talked with the roofer about how bad it looks. He said that's the way that rubber roofs are and most people don't care because it's up high.
> 
> Looks like I'm screwed on the roof itself. I have no way of proving it's a bad job.
> 
> ...


Ask about,
1. the underlayment he used.
2. was the field totally adhered.
3. was the edge flashing's "eave & rake metal" primed.
4. is the material at least 12 inches up under the shingles.
5. doe's he plan on coating it at a later date.

Edited to add, a properly installed torched down / mopped down system will be a grayish/blackish some what ugly roof upon completion,
unless the roofer uses a granulated surface and they do have in a few different colors.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Well, he did say it was warranted for 15 years...

Was there a written warranty issued?

BTW - The gutters in that picture were obviously not cleaned.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

Thanks everyone for providing me some info.

The two guys who installed the roof came back on Friday. They were not the same guy I had dealt with on the phone before (I forgot to ask that - it seems a lot of contractors just secure the deal and then send in some untrained/unlicensed clowns and pay em a small cut).

The 'leader' of the 2 guys apologized about the gutters - he said he forgot to tell his helper. They cleaned them on friday (they simply blew them out with a leaf blower).

In regards to the roof. The contract stipulates a 15 year warranty. They conveniently forgot to fill that part in and sign it back when they first installed the roof but I made them fill it out this time.

They swore up and down that it was/is a rubber roof, and that they are normally not coated and are supposed to look like it. They told me the type of coating I could apply. I looked at Home Depot and it looks like a gallon of the 'aluminum coating' should do. I'll probably do it myself.

While he was there, I ran my fingers along the edge (the part that overhangs the gutter) and was able to poke a couple of holes through. The guy swore it was not an issue, but I insisted he fill them (he eventually sealed them with some type of black caulk-like stuff - same stuff as the rest of the roof I guess).

Then we went back and forth over a main roof shingle that they pulled off, while running the 'rubber' roof underneath the main roof shingles (they went up at least 3 feet from what I can see). They left one of the shingles off (threw it away!) so it looks uneven. He insisted that it's not a problem because the rubber roof is there, but I insisted he replace it. He called his boss and then told me he'd have to go over to Home Depot and pick up a shingle as he doesn't have one to match it, and that he'd be back to replace it. That was Friday and the shingle has not been replaced and I've not heard from them....I'll put in a call today but I'm guessing it's the last I'm gonna hear from them.

Incidentally, on the contract it states that they would install a "Modified Rubber" roof.

These guys were $300 cheaper than the reputable places in my area. I'm selling this house (trying to, anyway), so I took a chance and got burnt. Never again.

I do a lot of web design/development for my work and side business and am thinking about documenting this whole process and putting it out on the web and identifying these clowns. I don't think they'd care, but at least others would be warned if they did a simple google search. I'd rank higher than they themselves would.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Where are you at, Mark?


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

Audubon, PA - just outside of Norristown, PA.


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

I bet the company you used is a residential type of company because the overhang they allowed on the flat roof is not proper for a flat roof, but seen a lot when steep slope roofers do flat roofing. They don't know any better, and have probably never seen a low slope roof edge done properly.


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