# I thought trees were good for the environment



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Luckily, here and in Western NC, they are leasing older farm lands that aren't being productive any more. Cattle business is moving on to other areas and those pastures that face south are a boon to the solar industry. I would imagine the land owner is faring pretty well with lease payments versus PITA cattle profits (if any).


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Hi, Chandler. My wife has family in Blairsville, so I am familiar with your area.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah, I forgot. The solar farms seem to be gaining in popularity.


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

The solar panels don't even replace fossil fuel plants - even without the clearing they're horrible environmentally. Watch planet of humans.

The only kind of green it's all about is money!


----------



## turboflush (Feb 1, 2016)

Yah people always forget the chemicals involved in making these new innovations. many that cannot be disposed of. 
I dont feel the return on panels is there. solar sales people will sign you for a 10-15 year lease on the panels. how long are the panels good for after that?


----------



## Zipperje (Sep 15, 2020)

turboflush said:


> Yah people always forget the chemicals involved in making these new innovations. many that cannot be disposed of.
> I dont feel the return on panels is there. solar sales people will sign you for a 10-15 year lease on the panels. how long are the panels good for after that?


The windmills are worse. The amount of concrete, steel, copper and whatever else it take to build them doesn’t make sense for reducing emissions. There was something in the news last year that said growing trees is the best way to reduce your carbon footprint. About 1,000 trees cancel out one persons lifetime emissions. I’m about halfway there but I need more land. The government would be better off to plant as many trees as they can and quit wasting money on solar and wind.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I hear about people who buy solar panels and figure they have nothing to lose with a 25 year warranty. My thought is that in 7 or 8 years it quits working. The installing company is out of business and the manufacturer is somewhere in China. So much for that worry free warranty. Now you have hundreds of pounds of toxic waste on your roof. Nice.


----------



## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

It is the height of hypocrisy when so-called environmentalists laud the benefits of solar farms, all the while ignoring the damage it does to acres of forests and woodlands and the displacement of animals.

It would be interesting to see how many of these "alternative energy" facilities would get built if the approximately $6.7 billion in energy subsidies and support the "alternative energy" industry receives annually was rescinded.

California spends billions on alternative energy which cannot meet consumer demand. Instead of admitting their policies are a failure and implementing more reliable energy production, they beg Californians to turn off their ACs and in some cases institute rolling blackouts.

Despite the clear evidence that current alternative energy is not viable to meet the demands of this nation, Biden is calling for a 100% carbon-free grid by 2035. Consider how many tens of thousands of acres that will need to be clear-cut to build the gargantuan wind and solar farms needed to try and meet the demand. How much wildlife will be sacrificed to their earth gods?

If that happens, there will not be a place in this country where you can drive and instead of just seeing spacious skies, amber waves of grain, purple mountain majesties and fruited plains, you will see endless wind towers and solar farms. And the only place you will see many animals that once roamed these areas will be in books, videos, zoos, and static displays in museums.


----------



## Mike Milam (Mar 3, 2017)

Follow the money, simple as that.


----------



## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Up here, we have better conditions for wind than solar. Typically, the wind turbines are put in farmers fields. The farmers only lose a very small amount of land from production, and get a nice annual check for renting out the land. Far cheaper than other sources of power. And you can put up a wind turbine in a year, from concept to producing power, compared to the decade ++ for a nuclear plant.

See below the current production mix for power in Ontario. We have a few solar farms too, but its still dark right now, so solar production shows as zero. Also have a fair number of houses with solar on their roofs, but I don't think they have any way of measuring that in real time, so is not included in the chart of production mix.

.


----------



## Mike Milam (Mar 3, 2017)

I have a friend who's mom lives/lived (R.I.P.) in northern IN and she had windmills on her property. She got "X" number of dollars for each one yearly. Pretty good sum I believe. Her and her husband were in the dairy business but he had passed and she didn't keep that business going.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

A little old lady in mid north Georgia was in a similar situation. AT&T approached her as her land was prime for a cell tower. Low impact, they maintained it, good deal. She also got $1k a month rent for it. This was before the phone companies piggy backed, so Verizon approached her also. Another tower, minimal impact, no maintenance, and another $1k a month. Her husband would have been proud.


----------



## Doyim (Jul 28, 2020)

following. Thanks for the discussion, guys (and gals). Learning a lot.


----------



## CaptTom (Dec 31, 2017)

I like the idea of exploring _all_ the angles on each energy source. But let's not forget the damage oil and coal extraction and refining does to the environment. I've been to some of those places. Yuch!

Rooftop solar seems like a pretty good idea. I share the concerns about obsolescence, but a lot of businesses seem to see a return on investment. Power companies are building wind farms as fast as they can, and I personally know there's a huge profit there. I assume it's the same for solar.

I agree it's disgusting what we (humans) are doing to the planet. Not just solar farms, but roads, cities, farmland, oceans. We're fouling all of it. There are simply too many of us. I don't have a solution to that. I'm not ready to volunteer to be one of those killed off to save the wildlife.


----------



## mysterylectric (Nov 30, 2010)

I cry foul on the solar soggy naysayers. It's sad to hear they are cutting down the forest, I didn't know that. But there are 1.9 billion acres of land in the US, and at least historically (ie pre-Trumptard era) land supporting threatened species has always been protected. Even if 10's of millions of acres are dedicated to solar (it would be interesting to do that calc) it's a drop in the bucket compared to the threat the US poses to global warming. I'm vaguely familiar with solar cell manufacture, given that I'm a dealer in semiconductor equipment. Offhand I can't think of a single-stage that produces "toxic waste that can't be disposed of".The primary component (silicon) can be derived from beach sand, which is at little risk of depletion by the solar industry, especially as compared to the concrete industry. Silicon is the second most abundant element on Earth by weight,

In doing the math, all that really matters is the cost of the cells in terms of CO2 generated vs. CO2 saved. The energy used is primarily to generate high temperatures in electrical furnaces: not only is it quite feasible to run such a plant with a small fraction of the cells it produces, I'd be a bit surprised if it hasn't been done already just for kicks. 

This energy cost is built into the price of the cells (and the panels and inverters and other such truck). The energy you receive at your house is governed by many of these same mechanisms. If the savings you see at the meter exceeds the capital cost of finished materials, you've got an uphill battle with me suggesting it's a net loss to the environment.

Solar on the rooftop is a no-brainer. No risk to the environ, and saves on energy distribution costs as well as generation. 

Granted two things: our own attempts to subsidize manufacturing was a flop, but that's simply because it was difficult to be cost-competitive with the Japanese, Germans, and Chinese. This has been the consternation of many US industries threatened or plowed under entirely by foreign competition and is not the fault of the cells themselves. 

I won't question the $6.9 billion figure, but even that is a laughably small amount compared for example to the $13 billion we have spent on the so-called supercarrier whose magnetic launch and capture system just doesn't work..

Most of that money ultimately goes to labor cost of installation. I freely admit that the industry surrounding that issue is highly overpriced and exploitive.

But this is a DIY forum. Labor cost drops out of the equation.

If you're not interested in doing it yourself, perhaps you should take this discussion to a different forum.

The price of the panels has dropped so dramatically over the last 40 years I find it shocking. How can they make such a "complex" thing so cheaply? But I can say that about many things. I remember paying about $1 each for transistors: now you can buy more than 100 million for that price (albeit a poor comparison).

Solar systems don't fail catastrophically. Components, usually the inverters, do fail: but these are commodities and again can be replaced by any DIY'er worth her weight in salt. Failure of manufacturing and installation companies drops out of the picture as well. 

Solar cells do lose efficiency slowly with time due to solarization. As best I recall, most manufacturers base their warranties based on a drop to %80 of original efficiency. That ain't half bad. 

Take care always.


----------



## mysterylectric (Nov 30, 2010)

BTW, the importance of trees in an urban environment can't be overemphasized. Asphalt and other components of the urban environment absorb energy from the Sun and radiate it into the atmosphere at lower wavelengths, a global warming issue. And the local environment is heated as well, driving up cooling costs. Be serving to shadow asphalt and serve as natural evaporative coolers some climatic impact can be saved. And maybe some birds will come.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

I want clean air and clean water, but man made global warming is a hoax. In NY there used to be a glacier. It happened because of global cooling. It melted because of global warming. Right now we might be in a warming cycle. That doesn’t mean it is man made. There were times in history when CO2 levels were many times higher than now and humans were not around. Does high CO2 cause global warming? Does global warming cause high CO2? Are they coincidental with no relationship to each other? The money is in the first choice. Whatever government funds, we get more of. I have one life and I am glad that it is in a warming trend.


----------



## mysterylectric (Nov 30, 2010)

Wow. It comes as no surprise to find climate change deniers in this or any other forum. Apparently, there are about 74 million of them in the US. 

But I've never heard anyone openly advocate for it. While you may be happy your days are 1 degree warmer, the rise in sea levels alone has displaced and destroyed the livelihood of millions. 

The sudden rise in global temps is unprecedented as evidenced by geological records.

Some insinuate the bible suggests this world is at our disposal, if not disposable. I wonder if you are among the %40 of Americans who believe the world is only a few thousand years old. From your tone, I bet I know.

As for the CO2 issue, you only have to dabble one toe in the science to realize it's both. Manmade global warming by the burning of fossil fuels has contributed to global warming, and global warming is driving CO2 out of the oceans as anyone who's opened a warm beer or warm Coke should readily comprehend. 

In my mind the beauty of climate science is that you don't have to observe it to understand and predict it..You just have to do the math and understand a few simple characteristics of CO2 which can be demonstrated in the laboratory 

Observation. Theory. Experiment. If all are in agreement, case closed. That's science. Anything else is non-science, IE nonsense.

Could Darwin be wrong?

No.

Is human contribution to global warming a real thing?

Yes.

It's interesting that you bring this point of view into a "green" forum dedicated to reducing global emissions.

Are you a troll?

Yes.

But I very much appreciate your opening my eyes to the fact that science denial does not only have dire consequences,
but is laced with malice aforethought.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

turboflush said:


> Yah people always forget the chemicals involved in making these new innovations. many that cannot be disposed of.
> I dont feel the return on panels is there. solar sales people will sign you for a 10-15 year lease on the panels. how long are the panels good for after that?


How long does that gallon of gas last in your car? It isn't renewable, while the panels will last 25 years producing electricity. Yes there are some upfront costs and yes we need to do better in finding better methods of manufacture and disposal but you've seen the problems with tar sand extraction or fracking or strip mining coal or nuclear or other methods. Stop subsidizing them all and let capitalism weed out the poor performers. Make the other industries pay for the damages to the environment and see which is better. The Solar industry like so many industries has its share of unscrupulous people ready to rip off the unsuspecting consumers. It is your responsibility to do your homework and the government's responsibility to help police all these industries to regulate and fine, when necessary, bad players in the market place. There is a need for fossil fuel nobody is saying to stop everything today! Most understand the issues. We just need to make smart choices going forward. We can't just keep doing what we have been doing. It is damaging our world and other countries are adding to this problem by wanting what we have. Save the oil for fertilizer and the plastic industry. In 100 years when we are running out of oil and people look back at our time and say how painfully stupid we were to waste oil out of our car's exhaust pipes or to burn to heat our homes when we don't have any left to make anything out of. Look around everything is plastic for good or bad we need oil to sustain life.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

Old Thomas said:


> I hear about people who buy solar panels and figure they have nothing to lose with a 25 year warranty. My thought is that in 7 or 8 years it quits working. The installing company is out of business and the manufacturer is somewhere in China. So much for that worry free warranty. Now you have hundreds of pounds of toxic waste on your roof. Nice.


 Can you please elaborate on the toxic water issue. Panels are made of aluminum, silicate, silver, copper, and other easily recycled parts. Yes there are still some manufacturing by-products but this process is improving every day. Just like the incandescent bulb industry that was replaced by those more efficient but environmentally problematic CFC bulbs that gave way to the LED bulbs we all use today. Given acceptance by consumers, the products got better. the same is happening with solar. Same for EV cars. I've owned electric/hybrid cars since 2005. Nothing special just thought if nobody took the plunge we would never get them mainstream. Just like the light bulbs, they are getting better every year. So too can the solar industry. Just give them a chance and stop berating them for your alleged suspicions about them. Your thought may be driven by things other than facts. The perfect solution to them being made in China is to make them here. Bring this industry back. Mostly automated but you can't automate a guy climbing up a roof and installing them. Need qualified technicians installing them. American installers.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

mysterylectric said:


> the rise in sea levels alone has displaced and destroyed the livelihood of millions.


Can you really back that up with corroborative facts, or are we supposed to just believe the BS?



mysterylectric said:


> simple characteristics of CO2


Trees need CO2, so why are the global warmists so hell bent on using that as a stump (so to speak) to interate from?



mysterylectric said:


> Could Darwin be wrong?


Absolutely, yes.



mysterylectric said:


> science denial


I see this going to the CBR really fast, but Science can't prove the things you want it to. Science is not absolute.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

chandler48 said:


> Can you really back that up with corroborative facts, or are we supposed to just believe the BS?
> 
> 
> Trees need CO2, so why are the global warmists so hell bent on using that as a stump (so to speak) to interate from?
> ...


Science is science the quest for understanding the absolute. It is more absolute than "therefore, God" that so many are willing to ascribe to their God, the reasons for everything. As we learn more some ideas have to change to allow for the newer knowledge. While some still want to believe that man came from mud. Now there's a real believable thought.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I won't get into a theological argument with you, but God created the earth and everything in it. Sit back and listen to your heart beat. Prick your finger with a needle and feel the pain coursing through your system. Do you really think this was just a happening due to science? As we learn more, the closer divine creation becomes a reality. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

chandler48 said:


> I won't get into a theological argument with you, but God created the earth and everything in it. Sit back and listen to your heart beat. Prick your finger with a needle and feel the pain coursing through your system. Do you really think this was just a happening due to science? As we learn more, the closer divine creation becomes a reality. I'll leave it at that.


No, it happened through Evolution. something you are unable to understand therefore GOD had to have done it. Of course, it makes no sense for you to get into a theological argument. YOU BELIEVE IN FAIRIES AND I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE. I can't use logic against ignorance.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

You're tipping the wrong windmill if you think I am ignorant, hoss. If I were a liberal, I'd be offended, but I'm neither. Why would God need any help? He is omnipotent, the center of the universe. He also Rules the heavens and the earth. He needed no help. Anyway, who would he have gotten, since man had not been created. There is no logic in evolution. Adaptation, sure, but saying the world was created by a big bang theory and man came from mud is ludicrous. God said let there be light and Bang there was light.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

chandler48 said:


> You're tipping the wrong windmill if you think I am ignorant, hoss. If I were a liberal, I'd be offended, but I'm neither. Why would God need any help? He is omnipotent, the center of the universe. He also Rules the heavens and the earth. He needed no help. Anyway, who would he have gotten, since man had not been created. There is no logic in evolution. Adaptation, sure, but saying the world was created by a big bang theory and man came from mud is ludicrous. God said let there be light and Bang there was light.


Sorry Dude, I got the right windmill. You are as ignorant as you are irrational plus a little stupid thrown in for good measure. You keep dreaming and live in your Never,Never land with Peter Pan. It is your scripture that talks of your god taking clay and making man and then a bone from his rib to make woman. You saying the scriptures are wrong? You willing to accept adaption huh! So you can make the walking in two by two work for the big flood? Cause we know without one of the many patches that you call miracles it wouldn't work for the many variations of animals of the world. You are worse than I thought. Like some lost soul why is afraid of their own shadow and need a crutch to live a nearly sane life. Oops, II think I hear your god calling ya' better hurry and prostrate yourself to your made-up friend. Never bothered to consider that you just happen to worship the same god that other Christians worship here in America and the Chinese works a different god the same for India, or Japan, or the Middle East.? They believe just s strongly just like the tens of thousands of different religions whose followers believe theirs is right only true religion and just like you they KNOW the other religions are false. Notice a common theme here. How lucky you are to have been born here and not somewhere else where you would be have been brought up Muslim and not Christian. Scarry huh. Look, I will give up on this discussion cause we all know it won't go anywhere. you are unable to think or reason. I'm pretty certain who you voted for and who you are. Nothing can reach you. You are lost to your own misguided beliefs and can not be reached. I wish I could be sorry for you but there are 74 million other Americans who are as wrong as you are. That is the scary thing for me!


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Water vapor is more of a contributor to global warming than CO2, but it is always left out of the equation because spending money won’t reduce it. There is no positive proof that CO2 causes climate change. There are theories and models. Those models predict that the temperature will rise a degree or two in 30 to 50 years. Weather forecasts also use models. I have witnessed days when everything is shut down because of an impending blizzard the next day, but then it didn’t snow. If the models can be wrong for tomorrow, why should I believe them for 30 to 50 years in the future? Models have variables and the further in the future they predict the more their results skew. Many scientists don’t believe in man made global warming, but the ones you hear about are the ones who believe because that is where the money is. Think about it. If you were a climate scientist, would you support global warming and get millions in grants or be broke? Would you develop a model that makes you money? If you are a Kool Aid drinking believer maybe you are right, but maybe you are wrong. CO2 levels have been higher and lower in the past without human intervention. Explain how that is different from today with proof, not theories. When you have a model that will tell me with certainty, down to the degree, what the weather will be next week I will give your 30 year model consideration. After all, you claim that your 30 year one degree prediction is accurate.
‘Unlike the far left, I am listening and waiting for proof. Lefties simply want to silence contrary opinions.


----------



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

walt1122 said:


> You are as ignorant as you are irrational plus a little stupid thrown in for good measure.


Thank you for your insight into my personal life. You appear to be living in the South, but I doubt you are Southern, because our natural culture would not exude such trash to another person. (besides it violates forum rules of decorum) I'll end my comments on this thread and to you. I'll also pray to my God for you as you don't seem to have one.


----------



## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

walt1122 said:


> Sorry Dude, I got the right windmill. You are as ignorant as you are irrational plus a little stupid thrown in for good measure. You keep dreaming and live in your Never,Never land with Peter Pan. It is your scripture that talks of your god taking clay and making man and then a bone from his rib to make woman. You saying the scriptures are wrong? You willing to accept adaption huh! So you can make the walking in two by two work for the big flood? Cause we know without one of the many patches that you call miracles it wouldn't work for the many variations of animals of the world. You are worse than I thought. Like some lost soul why is afraid of their own shadow and need a crutch to live a nearly sane life. Oops, II think I hear your god calling ya' better hurry and prostrate yourself to your made-up friend. Never bothered to consider that you just happen to worship the same god that other Christians worship here in America and the Chinese works a different god the same for India, or Japan, or the Middle East.? They believe just s strongly just like the tens of thousands of different religions whose followers believe theirs is right only true religion and just like you they KNOW the other religions are false. Notice a common theme here. How lucky you are to have been born here and not somewhere else where you would be have been brought up Muslim and not Christian. Scarry huh. Look, I will give up on this discussion cause we all know it won't go anywhere. you are unable to think or reason. I'm pretty certain who you voted for and who you are. Nothing can reach you. You are lost to your own misguided beliefs and can not be reached. I wish I could be sorry for you but there are 74 million other Americans who are as wrong as you are. That is the scary thing for me!


Whats scary is people like you. You would not believe in God even if he was standing in front of you.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

chandler48 said:


> Thank you for your insight into my personal life. You appear to be living in the South, but I doubt you are Southern, because our natural culture would not exude such trash to another person. (besides it violates forum rules of decorum) I'll end my comments on this thread and to you. I'll also pray to my God for you as you don't seem to have one.


Thank God! just joshing ya' NO, I'm not Southern. I believe you started the windmill and liberal stuff. Believe you meant "include" not exclude. You rather I start with the "Bless his heart" thing...You are entitled to your opinions but it should be backed up with facts. Sorry if I don't wait for you to bring your god over for a quick chat. I don't need you discussing your beliefs any more than I need someone to tell me Elvis is still alive. So yes I take responsibility for my actions and don't go to some imaginary being when things are beyond my comprehension. I go to forums and read and experiment and learn what is the most reasonable reason to answer my inquiry. POOF there it is! ain't gonna cut it for me. If scientists can reasonably predict up to what happened some one trillion billion of a second after the big bang maybe we can get to that too someday. Sorry if I offended your Southern sensibilities. Sorry, so many of your fellow Southers are still believing the BIG LIE and thought it a good idea to storm our Capital with Confederate flags. Yes, some others were there but I see how so many Southers behave. Now they all have a new cause. They will keep all their Trump memorabilia. Confederate flags with Trump in the center, the various banners, and front yard banners for Trump 2020. Want to bet they will be still there till they rot. Been wrong for 150 years so why stop now.


----------



## walt1122 (Aug 16, 2007)

walt1122 said:


> Thank God! just joshing ya' NO, I'm not Southern. I believe you started the windmill and liberal stuff. Believe you meant "include" not exclude. You rather I start with the "Bless his heart" thing...You are entitled to your opinions but it should be backed up with facts. Sorry if I don't wait for you to bring your god over for a quick chat. I don't need you discussing your beliefs any more than I need someone to tell me Elvis is still alive. So yes I take responsibility for my actions and don't go to some imaginary being when things are beyond my comprehension. I go to forums and read and experiment and learn what is the most reasonable reason to answer my inquiry. POOF there it is! ain't gonna cut it for me. If scientists can reasonably predict up to what happened some one trillion billion of a second after the big bang maybe we can get to that too someday. Sorry if I offended your Southern sensibilities. Sorry, so many of your fellow Southers are still believing the BIG LIE and thought it a good idea to storm our Capital with Confederate flags. Yes, some others were there but I see how so many Southers behave. Now they all have a new cause. They will keep all their Trump memorabilia. Confederate flags with Trump in the center, the various banners, and front yard banners for Trump 2020. Want to bet they will be still there till they rot. Been wrong for 150 years so why stop now.


oops sorry I read the "exude " as exclude. 
* ex•ude ĭg-zoo͞d′, ĭk-soo͞d′**►*
intransitive verb To ooze forth.
intransitive verb To discharge or emit (a liquid or gas, for example) gradually.
intransitive verb To exhibit in abundance.
still think include would have been a better choice.


----------

