# Remodel w Frame vs. New Construction w fin



## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Long story short, I need new windows.. and new frames since the ones I have are rotten. I was originally planning on doing all Pella new construction windows with the nailing fin. 

I got tossed a curveball today when my installer said he wouldn't be using the nailing fins. He wants to cut them off and then install them using screws on the side.

The big problem with that is it voids the Pella warranty. So I can order the remodel windows from Pella that have the holes already drilled on the sides and without the nailing fins. The problem is that I can't get jamb extensions with this setup.. only with the ones with nailing fins.

Should I just get the Pella remodel windows (with frame) all vinyl and then have the installer build jamb extensions? Or is the nailing fin really that important versus this setup? Anything I should know about? Thanks.


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## griz (Sep 22, 2015)

I'd be very concerned with the no warranty issue.

Are you set on Pella or willing to look at other manufacturers?

No fin install is ok if done correctly. Biggest concern would be what you have to the weather.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

griz said:


> I'd be very concerned with the no warranty issue.
> 
> Are you set on Pella or willing to look at other manufacturers?
> 
> No fin install is ok if done correctly. Biggest concern would be what you have to the weather.


Thanks. I agree w the no warranty issue since Pella has a good warranty on the vinyl product. I'm set on them because I'm getting a good deal to knowing someone that's in that industry. 

What did you mean by the last comment? What I had to the weather?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

I agree with Griz. I don't understand why Pella would void the warranty if the nail fin is removed. If that's the case, then I would look at other manufacturers for sure. That's totally absurd.

Unless you are talking about the Pella Pro-Lines. Since placing the Pro-Line's in Lowe's (or is it Home Depot?), They have "cheapened them up so much, they probably NEED the nail fin to remain stable. Ask to see a corner cut of the Pro-Line.... you won't get to see one because Pella doesn't WANT you to see one. There is virtually no wood in a Pro-Line and the cladding is cheap roll formed C^&* and not extruded.

It's a shame really. The Pro-Line used to be a well respected product by contractors and builders alike. 20+ years ago, I'll bet it was used in close to 50% of remodels and new construction builds in this market. But now, it's not even a fraction of that.

I would recommend a product like Marvin or WeatherShield if you're wanting a clad wood product. Both have structural integrity without the nail fin and won't void any warranties if you order them without nail fins or remove them. They both have heavy duty extruded aluminum cladding rather than thin roll formed crapola.

Good luck with your project!


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> I agree with Griz. I don't understand why Pella would void the warranty if the nail fin is removed. If that's the case, then I would look at other manufacturers for sure. That's totally absurd.
> 
> Unless you are talking about the Pella Pro-Lines. Since placing the Pro-Line's in Lowe's (or is it Home Depot?), They have "cheapened them up so much, they probably NEED the nail fin to remain stable. Ask to see a corner cut of the Pro-Line.... you won't get to see one because Pella doesn't WANT you to see one. There is virtually no wood in a Pro-Line and the cladding is cheap roll formed C^&* and not extruded.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I agree, Pella used to be the cream of the crop and it appears quality and craftsmanship have gone down tremendously. I'm on a tight budget, in the middle of a siding project, and have Pella connections so the 250 series just makes sense at this point.

The question is just nail fins + jamb extensions OR no fins and no jambs extensions. I also found out for these "re modeler" windows have the fins cut by Pella themselves. It's hilarious that they don't trust the installer.

About the warranty - The guy at Lowes told me if the installer were to miscut he could puncture the window and water could get in.


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## wewantutopia (Feb 28, 2012)

You could find a different installer; one that will install the product you want the way you want...


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

They indicated that the jamb extension was connected to the nailing fin. Can someone tell me if that's true? If so it would make cutting that off removing the jamb extension anyways. Unless I'm missing something.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> Thanks. I agree w the no warranty issue since Pella has a good warranty on the *viny*l product. I'm set on them because I'm getting a good deal to knowing someone that's in that industry.
> 
> What did you mean by the last comment? What I had to the weather?


Oh.... You are looking at the vinyl product from Pella....

If you really look closely at their vinyl warranty, there are SEVERAL vinyl window products out there with better warranties, MUCH better air infiltration numbers and plain and simple.... a better window all the way around IMHO.

For example, their non laminated glass warranty is only 20 years. Their laminated glass warranty is only 10 years. Most other vinyl window offer a lifetime on both. and, Pella offers ZERO years on accidental glass breakage. All other MFG's that I'm aware of, offer at LEAST a 20 year accidental glass breakage, if not a lifetime glass breakage warranty. These may not seem important, until you happen to need them.

It's too bad that your "good deal" with a friend in the industry includes Pella vinyl. They are an average at best product, again....IMHO.

It's kind of like Bose.... the more you "hear" about Pella being the best around, the more you tend to believe it. And, I will admit.... the Pella Architectural line of clad wood windows, is most definitely a premium product. But, you pay more than a premium price for them.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Pro-Line product has been reduced to a shell of its former self and their vinyl product is average at best.

Ask to see air infiltration numbers on the Pella vinyl windows. I seriously doubt you will be able to see them Or, if you do..... they will be WAY higher than several vinyl window products that are down at, or near .04 cfm..... with WAY better warranties like I already mentioned.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

wewantutopia said:


> You could find a different installer; one that will install the product you want the way you want...


That's part of the issue, I'm in the middle of a siding project (everything is torn off) and have these installers right now. It would break up the project and piss a bunch of people off to just get different installers and I don't think it was worth the headache.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> They indicated that the jamb extension was connected to the nailing fin. Can someone tell me if that's true? If so it would make cutting that off removing the jamb extension anyways. Unless I'm missing something.


 Ahhhh.... Now I can see where that would be a problem. So, it's an engineering issue where they are using the nail fin for structural integrity as I suspected. That's GOT to tell you how poorly their windows are engineered and/or the strength of their extrusions, if they "need" the intrigal nail fin to keep the window stable.

Trist me, I feel your $$$ pain. Is there ANY way to only do the worst ones first, then the others as you can afford them and using a better product?


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> Ahhhh.... Now I can see where that would be a problem. So, it's an engineering issue where they are using the nail fin for structural integrity as I suspected. That's GOT to tell you how poorly their windows are engineered and/or the strength of their extrusions, if they "need" the intrigal nail fin to keep the window stable.
> 
> Trist me, I feel your $$$ pain. *Is there ANY way to only do the worst ones first, then the others as you can afford them and using a better product?*


That's what I'm doing now. Replacing 6/20 windows.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

I just need to know how hard building jamb extensions would be if I went the no fin route? If it's a no brainer then this might just be the best option now.


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## griz (Sep 22, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> ...What did you mean by the last comment? What I had to the weather?...


To the weather: The portions of your home that are most susceptible to incoming storms and/or extreme sun/wind exposure.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

The reason I need to do them now is they're doing the siding/window wrap and some of them are really bad. I'm just going to get the 250 series except for the kitchen for now. Only doing 6/20 but some were so bad they couldn't wrap them they had to build wood and then they had nothing to even nail into..



















In the inside I noticed the drywall goes right up to the jamb extensions.










They will have to spray foam from the outside..


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

griz said:


> To the weather: The portions of your home that are most susceptible to incoming storms and/or extreme sun/wind exposure.


All 6 of these windows are on 2 sides of the house that get hit the worst.

Just had water coming in last week from a bad storm due to not having anything covering the top of them. Had to Tyvek in the pouring rain..


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> I just need to know how hard building jamb extensions would be if I went the no fin route? If it's a no brainer then this might just be the best option now.


Jamb extensions are easy-peasy. Make sure the windows don't have the track for the jamb extensions. Or, if they do, make certain they will receive 3/4" material. Then have your installer rip 3/4" primed poplar to whatever width you need. Or, stain grade if staining the extensions.

Hell, save the $$$ and do the extensions yourself. Just make certain the drywall is up on the inside (if you're doing inside drywall) because each window may be a tad different on what size (depth) extensions you may need. 

Go for it! :vs_wave:


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

This is my kitchen window, single casement with a single fixed (double unit). I'm replacing this with a Pella 450 double casement, but look at the drywall even thought the new casing will cover it. The drywall goes right to the jamb extension..


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Actually.... that's not a jamb extension. That's a buck frame of some sort. Has that window been replaced before?

Back in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's some aluminum replacement windows had a jamb depth of 4-9/16" and they put a buck frame around the rough opening before installing them, Your vinyl replacements will only be 3-1/4" deep, so you will still need an extension which will come to the inside edge of that buck frame.

Is that buck frame I am seeing on the inside.... what's rotting on the outside? If so, then obviously, you will need to remove it and then size your new windows to the rough framing and install your extensions. 

The nice thing about removing that buck frame and using your extensions, is you can go back with the same size casing on the inside and not have to worry about old paint lines or increasing the casing width.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> Actually.... that's not a jamb extension. That's a buck frame of some sort. Has that window been replaced before?
> 
> Back in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's some aluminum replacement windows had a jamb depth of 4-9/16" and they put a buck frame around the rough opening before installing them, Your vinyl replacements will only be 3-1/4" deep, so you will still need an extension which will come to the inside edge of that buck frame.
> 
> ...


These are all original construction windows from 1992. It's rotting outside because the previous owner didn't keep up with the paint maintenance. 

We measured the new windows the size of that "buck frame" as you call it. So hopefully it will just slide in and they can make a couple adjustments. The issue is how will I install the jamb extensions? Will I have room to get to the framing with the drywall that close to the buck frame?


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Here's another angle


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Ok.... so what I am calling a buck frame is the actual original window frame? It just didn't look like it in the picture. The windows in the picture look like an aluminum window. Which if it is...., they may have still installed a buck around the rough opening prior to installing those windows.

My question still remains.... is the rot on the outside happening to what I'm calling the buck frame? If it is, they will still need to come out and replaced if you've already ordered new windows to fit inside the buck. Is that buck a 2X" or is it thinner?

Give me a few minutes to finish some drawings to explain how the jamb extensions will work in your case.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Ok.. here ya go Thee are just quick renderings in MS Paint, so please forgive the simplicity.

This a side view of your existing wall structure with the frame - either the original window frame or the buck frame.










Here is what your final install should look like. Again if what I am calling the buck frame is rotted on the outside, it will need to be replaced. The new needs to be the same size as what's there, if you've already ordered new windows to fit inside that frame.










With your new widow being only 3-1/4" deep, you will need the "jamb extensions" to extend in to match up with the drywall. Put your casing back up and I also recommend cellular PVC brick mold and sill nose on the exterior to compete the install.

In lieu of cellular PVC on the exterior, a good window installer can create the BM and sill nose by bending aluminum coil stock. I'll have to post pics of that tomorrow when I get to the office.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Actually... this would be less $$$, also correct and look just as good IMHO. No jamb extensions needed at all....It will also allow you to use the same size interior casing and cover the old paint lines. In the scenario above, you would need wider casing or have to deal ith the old paint lines.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Second picture looks like Andersen windows. 

You sure that one over the sink wasn't replaced before?


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I am only going to address one point. Anyone who can not build a jamb extension should never call himself a carpenter or window installer. 

I personally would never buy any replacement window with a pre-attached extensions. It is easier to build them than it is to deal with other problems.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

Colbyt said:


> I personally would never buy any replacement window with a pre-attached extensions. It is easier to build them than it is to deal with other problems.


I couldn't agree more Colby.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Colbyt said:


> I am only going to address one point. Anyone who can not build a jamb extension should never call himself a carpenter or window installer.
> 
> I personally would never buy any replacement window with a pre-attached extensions. It is easier to build them than it is to deal with other problems.


Thank you very much, this is really helpful information. I'll just get them without the jamb extensions and get them without fins with the pre-drilled holes.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> I couldn't agree more Colby.


Thanks, you've been very helpful throughout this post. I'll get them without the fins and without jamb extensions and have them make those. The pre-drilled holes on the sides will be nice too, Pella gives you plugs for those or something to that effect to clean it up a bit.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

I do have 2 more decisions to make:

1) For my double hung windows, do I get a half screen or a full screen? I have a lake view and I would hate to have a full screen but I wasn't sure if that would be stupid to do.

2) Is it worth it to have the option for foam inside the jambs (from Pella) for a little extra R- value? We will be foaming the outside of the windows, this would just be added R.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Colbyt said:


> I am only going to address one point. Anyone who can not build a jamb extension should never call himself a carpenter or window installer.
> 
> I personally would never buy any replacement window with a pre-attached extensions. It is easier to build them than it is to deal with other problems.


Can you install the jamb extensions after he installs the window or is it something I have to do while he puts the window in? I know I have to somehow get to the framing which I can't see now.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

This shows the rough framing behind the drywall and should clear any confusion over what you are calling a jamb extension.










Here is a new construction window with 3/4" channels to accept jamb extensions. 










The extension is generally used when installing a thinner window (less than 4-9/16") into a "rough opening" (where old jamb, window frame or buck frame has been removed. You need that extension to come to the inside drywall to cover the rough framing studs and header.

What you need to be absolutely certain of.... is what I am calling a buck frame, may indeed be jamb extensions applied to the window just like the picture above. They don't "extend", the window appears to come to the inside edge of the drywall - to the edge of that frame/extension. And, I've never seen them that thick before, which is why I didn't see them as extensions.

If they are in fact big beefy extensions, and you've already ordered your new windows to fit inside that framing.... it's gonna be gone when you pull that window, so you will need to buck the opening for sure.

I hope this helps.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> I do have 2 more decisions to make:
> 
> 1) For my double hung windows, do I get a half screen or a full screen? I have a lake view and I would hate to have a full screen but I wasn't sure if that would be stupid to do.
> 
> ...


.....


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> Can you install the jamb extensions after he installs the window or is it something I have to do while he puts the window in? I know I have to somehow get to the framing which I can't see now.


You can install the extensions after the installer is finished.

One other note.... be careful with the foam around the window. Do NOT use the "Great Stuff" from Lowes or HD. That stuff expands a LOT (even what they claim as low expansion). I recommend your installer use the pro grade OSI -TEQ ultra low expansion window and door foam. The W&D foam from Alside is also a good product. 

Your installer will need a foam gun to apply these products. They do not have a straw like the cheap stuff.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> This shows the rough framing behind the drywall and should clear any confusion over what you are calling a jamb extension.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The new Pella 250-series vinyl will be 3 1/4" thick. They will need jamb extensions due to that reason. I'll have to find out if they have that channel that accepts the jamb extension like your picture shows. 

I'm confused as well if this is the frame or the buck framing. I believe it's the frame butted up to the drywall. This is all 2x4 construction so they probably made the windows 4 9/16" thick back then.

I don't know if this buck frame would even look good if it was to be used, I have all the casings off anyways so I'm wondering if it would just be easier to remove these windows, put in the 3 1/4" Pella 250-series vinyl and have jamb extensions installed?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> The new Pella 250-series vinyl will be 3 1/4" thick. They will need jamb extensions due to that reason. I'll have to find out if they have that channel that accepts the jamb extension like your picture shows.
> 
> I tried to edit that post (but was past the 30 minute rule) to say.... those channels can be a hindrance if your rough opening is out of square. Order them without the channels and cut and apply your extensions to even up with the inside drywall.
> 
> ...


.....


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

When I order these windows, should I buy based on measurements of frame-to-frame.. or should I take a 1/4" off on each side (height and width)?

This is more personal preference I believe but I'm looking to see what you guys would do.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> .....


If the window doesn't have those channels for the jamb extension, what do you mount the actual jamb extension to? These are vinyl windows so it wouldn't be the window itself..


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> If the window doesn't have those channels for the jamb extension, what do you mount the actual jamb extension to? These are vinyl windows so it wouldn't be the window itself..


You pin nail the extensions to the 2X" rough framing. From the drywall on the inside right up against the vinyl window. Then like I said, run cove, quarter round or shoe around the spot where the extension meets the vinyl. I think this looks MUCH better than a bead of caulk which will very likely discolor over time.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> When I order these windows, should I buy based on measurements of frame-to-frame.. or should I take a 1/4" off on each side (height and width)?
> 
> This is more personal preference I believe but I'm looking to see what you guys would do.


No, not frame to frame. You will need at least 1/4" for shimming the window level, plumb and square. Vinyl also expands and contracts a LOT. If you have them tight up against the frame, you will not only have no room to foam around them, next summer when it's 90+ degrees in the shade.... your windows may not open because the frames will be squeezing against the sashes, when that's the only direction they have to expand.... because they are tight to the rough framing.

Personally, I like a 3/8" cut back.... especially since the house has probably settled and moved over the last 20+ years.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> No, not frame to frame. You will need at least 1/4" for shimming the window level, plumb and square. Vinyl also expands and contracts a LOT. If you have them tight up against the frame, you will not only have no room to foam around them, next summer when it's 90+ degrees in the shade.... your windows may not open because the frames will be squeezing against the sashes, when that's the only direction they have to expand.... because they are tight to the rough framing.
> 
> Personally, I like a 3/8" cut back.... especially since the house has probably settled and moved over the last 20+ years.


The installers measured frame-to-frame except on a couple. I can take off 1/4" on the height and width if that makes a difference though. So for arguments sake if the window was 30" x 30", I would order the new one 29.75" x 29.75".

I just figured they already had space for shims and foam since they have batts in there now and I assumed they would have shimmed on the original window installation. But maybe I'm incorrect on that?


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> The installers measured frame-to-frame except on a couple. I can take off 1/4" on the height and width if that makes a difference though. So for arguments sake if the window was 30" x 30", I would order the new one 29.75" x 29.75".
> 
> I just figured they already had space for shims and foam since they have batts in there now and I assumed they would have shimmed on the original window installation. But maybe I'm incorrect on that?


I'm not there to see it, so.... 

That's between you and your installer. :glasses:


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> I'm not there to see it, so....
> 
> That's between you and your installer. :glasses:


You've been more than helpful :thumbsup:

I feel a lot better now about the decisions I'm going to be making after this.


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## CompleteW&D (Sep 4, 2015)

cjaustin81 said:


> You've been more than helpful :thumbsup:
> 
> I feel a lot better now about the decisions I'm going to be making after this.


Good for you.... and thanks for your kind words. :thumbsup:


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

CompleteW&D said:


> You can install the extensions after the installer is finished.
> 
> One other note.... be careful with the foam around the window. Do NOT use the "Great Stuff" from Lowes or HD. That stuff expands a LOT (even what they claim as low expansion).* I recommend your installer use the pro grade OSI -TEQ ultra low expansion window and door foam. *The W&D foam from Alside is also a good product.
> 
> Your installer will need a foam gun to apply these products. They do not have a straw like the cheap stuff.


Great recommendation. OSI makes some good stuff, we're using the OSI Quad caulk right now on the exterior for the flashing and siding install and while it may be tougher to get a perfect bead compared to DAP the product appears to be exceptional.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

cjaustin81 said:


> When I order these windows, should I buy based on measurements of frame-to-frame.. or should I take a 1/4" off on each side (height and width)?
> 
> This is more personal preference I believe but I'm looking to see what you guys would do.



The factory default on every one I ever ordered with deductions is 1/4" on the width and 1/2" on the height. Assuming you use the smaller of your 3 horizontal and vertical measures you should be fine. If you want to do your own deductions order exact size, no deductions.

This has always been adequate for my needs. I keep life simple by letting their computer do the math. I usually go in with a sketch of my window showing my 3 widths and heights. Knock on my head, I have yet to eat a window.

I agree, jambs extensions are always done after the window. Simply nailed to the existing studding using shims to square it to the window.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

After telling the installers of how Pella voids the warranty if you cut the nailing fins and that you can't get jamb extensions with the block frame.. they now want to just install them with the nailing fins w the built in Pella *wood* 4 9/16" jamb extensions.

I had to cancel two orders and resubmit the first one..

Looks like we will be using the nailing fin afterall.


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## cjaustin81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Colbyt said:


> The factory default on every one I ever ordered with deductions is 1/4" on the width and 1/2" on the height. Assuming you use the smaller of your 3 horizontal and vertical measures you should be fine. If you want to do your own deductions order exact size, no deductions.
> 
> This has always been adequate for my needs. I keep life simple by letting their computer do the math. I usually go in with a sketch of my window showing my 3 widths and heights. Knock on my head, I have yet to eat a window.
> 
> I agree, jambs extensions are always done after the window. Simply nailed to the existing studding using shims to square it to the window.


I feel like a project gets to a point where you just have to put your trust in the installer. You've seen the work this European crew is doing Colby in the siding and roofing forum here. Prate Roofing Inc. Check them out guys. 

I'm beyond picky and Michael Prate is the man to go to if you care about your house and live within the Chicago region.


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