# Serious drainage issues - Need help



## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

More pics to show more detail. Keep in mind I live in Alabama so ignore the snow in the pictures. Just used these as they give a good idea of where the water is sitting after a heavy rain.

Thank you all for any help!!

**The first pic is where most of the water is coming from (the area in between the shrub beds). During heavy rains it literally gushing inbetween the pickets in the fence then flows to the low side of the yard.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Not quite clear in the pictures - you have gutters on both those sides of the house, right? In other words, we're talking about the rain falling on the ground only, the rain hitting the roof is already being diverted?


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

stick\shift said:


> Not quite clear in the pictures - you have gutters on both those sides of the house, right? In other words, we're talking about the rain falling on the ground only, the rain hitting the roof is already being diverted?


Correct. I have gutters on all sides and the gutter water is being diverted as best as possible. The water causing the issues is flowing from the houses on the higher end of the street.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Can you create a berm or something to divert that water before it really gets on your property?


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

stick\shift said:


> Can you create a berm or something to divert that water before it really gets on your property?


 In order to create a berm to divert the water I would have to build the land up against the bottom of the fence. Not sure that is the best way of doing it.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

jabrock1 said:


> In order to create a berm to divert the water I would have to build the land up against the bottom of the fence. Not sure that is the best way of doing it.


Are yer arrows pointin' the way the water runs, or where it's comin' from,..??


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

The arrows are showing how the water flows (blue arrows) to the spots where it is settling (red circles)


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Im thinking of trying a shallow French drain. Im not sure if it will work though. Most all French drains I have read about are pretty deep. My problem is I cant go very deep because I will not be able run the pipe to daylight if I do (it will be below street level). I have a small amount of slope to work with, so I was thinking of digging a French/Trench drain that is just below the surface. I was wondering, if I do it this way I would not use pipe and just dig a shallow ditch to the street and fill with ditch with rock. Pretty much like a dry creek bed that is small, shallow and not decorative. Are there an issues with this? Any other suggestions?


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

French drains can be as deep or as shallow as you want or need. If you dig one near the surface, you would fill it with very coarse gravel so people can't trip and fall into it and it will still carry water away. If it is at least 4 inches deep it can still make use of a perforated pipe.

There is an alternate definition of French drain that pertains to France as opposed to someone named French. The typical example was a slightly concave usually hard surfaced area around the perimeter of a building to serve as a drainage channel. The purpose was the same, to channel storm water to one or more corners or other lower ground. This is the degenerate form of the French drain that we all know about. This surface ditch or "dished area" must also discharge the water to someplace else perhaps with the aid of a pit (with limited permeability for possible incoming ground water) and sump pump.

"In order to create a berm to divert the water I would have to build the land up against the bottom of the fence. Not sure that is the best way of doing it. "
That is the only way of doing it.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

AllanJ said:


> French drains can be as deep or as shallow as you want or need. If you dig one near the surface, you would fill it with very coarse gravel so people can't trip and fall into it and it will still carry water away. If it is at least 4 inches deep it can still make use of a perforated pipe.
> 
> There is an alternate definition of French drain that pertains to France as opposed to someone named French. The typical example was a slightly concave usually hard surfaced area around the perimeter of a building to serve as a drainage channel. The purpose was the same, to channel storm water to one or more corners or other lower ground. This is the degenerate form of the French drain that we all know about. This surface ditch or "dished area" must also discharge the water to someplace else perhaps with the aid of a pit (with limited permeability for possible incoming ground water) and sump pump.


 How would the perforated pipe aid a French drain that is very shallow? Would the holes be pointed up? If they were pointed down in a shallow French drain it seems like the pipe would not be necessary.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

The pipe will carry away water faster than just rock or gravel.

The holes are still pointed down.

All French drains will lose some water to the ground directly below them when that ground is not saturated. This might aggravate basement flooding problems thus a bed of mulch or gravel up against the foundation and "below grade" is not a good idea.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

AllanJ said:


> The pipe will carry away water faster than just rock or gravel.
> 
> The holes are still pointed down.
> 
> All French drains will lose some water to the ground directly below them when that ground is not saturated. This might aggravate basement flooding problems thus a bed of mulch or gravel up against the foundation and "below grade" is not a good idea.


 OK I got ya. I would not have the drain against the house. Planning to try to have it in between My house and the neighbors. May try to use some smaller diameter perforated PVC. The smallest I can find is 3". Do they make 2"?


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## matt-gp (Oct 28, 2014)

"If I bury pipe to try to channel the water to the driveway, then the pipe would be lower than the driveway. I don't know if the water would continue to flow or just back up."

French drain with a pop-up emitter for down-spouts out back perhaps. If your drain pipe slant goes to street surface level, the city should be willing to come out and drill a hole through the curb for you (usually for free, at least for me...).


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Question: Can you achieve a continuous downhill slope for an underground pipe from the backyardthat ends next to your driveway just before the sidewalk where you have a flush covered "drain opening" (no popup or other moving parts) that the backyard water will come out of and run down the driveway surface from there?


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

AllanJ said:


> Question: Can you achieve a continuous downhill slope for an underground pipe from the backyardthat ends next to your driveway just before the sidewalk where you have a flush covered "drain opening" (no popup or other moving parts) that the backyard water will come out of and run down the driveway surface from there?


I plan to check how much slope I have to work with this weekend using stakes, string and line level. From what I can tell by looking at the slope of the yard is that I could have a continuous _slight _downhill slope but I don't think I would have enough to run an underground pipe all the way to the street. More likely would be having the end of the pipe discharging just past the garage onto the driveway (which I think you are suggesting). I just don't know if I could have it flush unless I ended the pipe a couple feet before the driveway and finished the rest with a shallow trench and gravel.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

I measured the slope on the sides of the house. I have about 2 to 3 inches of slope on the sides of the house, from the back corner of the house to the street. I have the city coming out to see if there is a storm drain pipe anywhere I can tap into. 

I walked around outside last time it rained and the 1 downspout in the back has a ton of water coming out and it discharges right into the problem area in the back yard. I am planning to run it around to the front of the house and extend all downspouts to discharge to the street. I am hoping this helps a lot as the amount of water being discharged out of this downspout was a ton. This should help with the sogginess of the yard right?

I am also convinced this is a ground water problem. Since it just stay mushy all the time. Is there a certain solution that helps ground water drainage issues? 

See photo below of the water coming out of the downspout in the backyard.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Ok well I don't have a storm drain pipe to tap into. So that idea is out the window. I'm starting to think a sump pump may be my only option. How well do sump pumps handle high volumns of water during a heavy rain? Can I tie my downspouts into the sump pump?

My plan would be to tie downspouts into the sump basin and also have some French drains tied into it as well. I'm not sure if I'm asking to much of the sump pump, as this will be a lot of water during heavy rains. I was looking at the Zoeller M58 1/3hp pump but I don't know if I should get the 1/2hp version. Any thoughts? Thanks.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

jabrock1 said:


> Ok well I don't have a storm drain pipe to tap into. So that idea is out the window. I'm starting to think a sump pump may be my only option. How well do sump pumps handle high volumns of water during a heavy rain? Can I tie my downspouts into the sump pump?
> 
> My plan would be to tie downspouts into the sump basin and also have some French drains tied into it as well. I'm not sure if I'm asking to much of the sump pump, as this will be a lot of water during heavy rains. I was looking at the Zoeller M58 1/3hp pump but I don't know if I should get the 1/2hp version. Any thoughts? Thanks.


Ayuh,.... It could take a very big pump,....

'n where ya gonna pump all this water too,..??

It appears that the development altered the lay of the land, 'n you got screwed,...

If ya got enough fall to work with, cuttin' swales to the street is the simplest, easiest way to go,...
Rentin' a laser, 'n shootion' grades are the only way to know,...

It would take a Huge hole, 'n a Huge pump to keep up with much rainfall,....


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... It could take a very big pump,....
> 
> 'n where ya gonna pump all this water too,..??
> 
> ...


Planning to pump to the street. Already checked with the City and they do not have a problem with it. 

My first plan of action it to get all my downspouts to drain to the street. The only way I see to be able to bury the pipes and have them discharge onto the street is to cut into the sidewalk. However, the City said they did not like people to cut into the sidewalk. Is there another way around this? I was thinking maybe a downspout drain could be level, instead of sloping down and still get the water to the street. Then I could do one of those pop up drains? How well would a pop drain work if the pipe was only at a slight slope? Also, would PVC be better than corrugated pipe for tying downspouts together?


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

As for the other side of the house. I was thinking of doing a French drain (red line) into a channel drain that runs down the driveway (blue line). 

Random question; how effective would a French drain be if it is right below the surface. ie a 6" trench with 3 or 4" pipe? Could I use 2" instead and still be effective. Sorry for all the questions, just really need to find a solution.

Thanks


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,... Same question as in yer other thread,....

Have any of these grades been shot with a laser level,..??

Ya _*GOTTA*_ know the available pitch to develop a plan,....

A 4" drainage tile, whether corrugated or smooth pipe, has 4" of fall, if lain perfectly level,.....


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... Same question as in yer other thread,....
> 
> Have any of these grades been shot with a laser level,..??
> 
> ...


 Im not sure I understand your last statement "A 4" drainage tile, whether corrugated or smooth pipe, has 4" of fall, if lain perfectly level,....." If laid perfectly level, then there should be no slope? Maybe I am misunderstanding.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

jabrock1 said:


> Im not sure I understand your last statement "A 4" drainage tile, whether corrugated or smooth pipe, has 4" of fall, if lain perfectly level,....." If laid perfectly level, then there should be no slope? Maybe I am misunderstanding.


Ayuh,.... A dead level 4" pipe has 4" of drop because any water comin' in, can't stack up,....

If there's 1" of water in a 4" pipe lain dead level, the water will still run out the ends,....


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

'n ya still haven't said whether the water at the back fence is Comin' from the neighbor's, or goin' to the neighbor's,..??..??


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Maybe this helps.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

jabrock1 said:


> Maybe this helps.


Ayuh,.... So there's No water flowin' under the fence,..??

From post #2, page 1,...
*"The first pic is where most of the water is coming from (the area in between the shrub beds). During heavy rains it literally gushing inbetween the pickets in the fence then flows to the low side of the yard"

*If there is water comin' into yer lot from under the fence, is it from the lot behind yer's, or from the lot beside yer lot,..??
As in the picture in post #26,..?

Is this the front corner, same side of the house as the picture you just posted in this post(#26) I quoted,..??









If so,...
Remove the fence that's close to yer house at the back corner, up this alley I'm lookin' at,...
With a laser level, determine the elevations of that property line, from the Back fence(not the side fence), out to the street, or to the utility boxes on the property line near the street,...

That'll determine yer options for this side of the house,....

You'll also wanta do the same thing on the other side of the house, down that alley, as well as across the back of yer lot, along both the house, 'n along the back fence,...


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

I have also attached a picture of the biggest problem area (left side of house) after a big rainfall.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ok,.... Now ya need to go rent a laser level, 'n shoot the grades as I've explained,....

The side of the house you've got labeled as Gushes,...
Ya need to open up the fence, for shootin' grades, 'n for fixin' the drainage,...
It'd be a good time to yank that tree outa there too,...
That's gonna destroy yer house bein' so close,....
(that *Is* yer house the tree is growin' into, Right,??)


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Bondo said:


> Ok,.... Now ya need to go rent a laser level, 'n shoot the grades as I've explained,....
> 
> The side of the house you've got labeled as Gushes,...
> Ya need to open up the fence, for shootin' grades, 'n for fixin' the drainage,...
> ...


OK sounds good. Yeah that's my tree.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

OK after 10 days of no rain the yard is finally nice and dry. Ive had the city and 2 landscaping companies come look at the are and they cannot offer any solution as the street is higher that the yard. One suggested a dry well, which I knew probably would not work since Im in Alabama which is full on clay. I dug about 5' deep test hole and it will all clay. Did a perc test and after 4 hours the water had dropped 2". So dry wells are out.

Now im back to the sump pump solution. Looking at and 1/2hp iON pump which is rated at 4200 GPH at 5ft. I would have the pump in a 24" x 18" sump basin which I plan to connect a couple downspouts as well as a French drain that run down the side of the house. Any one else done this and had success? Any pointers or possible concern that you see? This seems to be my only option and something has to be done since no grass will grow, shurbs are dying and a small maple tree in the back has already bit the dust.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> I would have the pump in a 24" x 18" sump basin


Ayuh,.... That sounds awfully Tiny,..... 'bout 1/2 of a 55 gallon drum,....


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

How big would you suggest?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,.... I ain't no hydrological Engineer, but yer drainin' Alota square feet, in Alabama,....

I'd think yer gonna need somethin' like a 2" line to the street,....

A bigger tank, allows less pump cycling, longer run times,....


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Yeah I was looking at getting a sewer pump which can handle solids and has a 2" discharge instead of 1.5". The 1/2 hp model I'm looking at is rated at 9600GPH. 

Also I was thinking of drilling holes in the basin and adding rock around it. Which would in essence do the same thing at a larger basin. 

Only thing that worries me about 9600GPH is I don't want it to look like a fire hydrant when it turns on, since I'm discharging on the street.


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## sparky48 (Dec 24, 2014)

I've been watching your post and reading as I have about the same problem with our yard. I leaning toward a sump in the backyard and running a drain line out to a pop up in the front yard. I think your thought on the sewer pump may be a bit of an overkill. The regular sump pump should handle it and even if it has 1-1/2" outlet from the pump, once you get outside the sump container you can always increase the pipe to a 2" out to the street. I wouldn't worry to much about how much water you're discharging, as the street will be plenty wet anyway.
I see "Bondo" has been a big contributor to your posts and is quite helpful but I ran across a company out of North Carolina his site it "appledrains.com" and he has numerous "you tube" videos that you can watch for various installations. He's very thorough on the installations and may be a big help to you. I know I've picked up a lot of tips already. Now to just get the probelm resolved. Good Luck and wish me the same.


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## BrowneBearLLC (Apr 8, 2015)

This is what you have to do, not hard and you just never see anyone do it but it works and works great.Dig and put in a crock that you would put in for a sump pump for a basement, next drain all of the water to the crock anyway that you want, gravel, pipe, slopping etc; I would use drain tile myself.Drop in a sump pump into the crock and run the pipe out to the discharge area that you decide is the best; this can be above or below ground and now the problem is resolved. I have done many of these in the past with no issues.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Sump pump idea is currently on hold.

Im currently talking with my neighbor who seems to be on board with the below proposal. 1st picture below. The red line represents a French drain which will run though my neighbors back yard and discharges toward the street. There seems to be enough slope just by looking but I still need to shoot the grade just to confirm. Does this look plausible? Also if we do move forward with this, should I use 6" corrugated instead of 4"? How wide should the trench be? 

The slope can somewhat been seen in the second picture. I will get a better pic this afternoon.


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## sparky48 (Dec 24, 2014)

I'm surprised your neighbor is willing to let you dig up his yard. Of course unless he's having a problem too. From looking at it you might want to just stay on your side of the fence and drain into your front yard.

As I've explained our situation before with the french drain not working, well it turned out that the storm drain line to the city system was plugged and we couldn't break thru it. I cut off the pipe and re-routed it around the landscape area and into the front yard. Luckily we had 2 1/2" of rain to test the system that weekend and the pop-up emitter in the front yard was working just fine. No more water in the basement or standing water against the back of the house. I all I'm guessing I have at least 130' of pipe in the ground and I used the 4" flexible stuff with the holes. It also had the protective sock over it. My trench was just shovel width wide. It started at about 6" deep to probably close to 20" deep at the end of the run where it turns up to the emitter in the front yard. The neighbor said that isn't going to work without something pushing the water. Well, proved him wrong. Gravity does wonders. Good Luck and hope you get yours worked out.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

So you have the end of your drain 20" deep and it still works with a pop up drain?


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## sparky48 (Dec 24, 2014)

Yup, it turns a 90 at the end of the run up to the level of the grass. :thumbsup:


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## billtech (Jul 18, 2015)

One major thing you need to do is get rid of the water coming under the fence from your uphill neighbor. If the neighbor won't find some way to stop it, then you may have to berm your fence line or install a concrete curb.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

How about:

1. A dry well at the lowest point in your yard, and,
2. A dry well as close to the front of your property as possible considering #3, and,
3. An 4" underground pipe sloping down from near the top of #1 to #2, and,
4. A sump pump in #2 that discharges the water onto the driveway to run into the street.

Dry wells must not be put too close to the house. However you could have a holding tank instead which could be put close to the house.

You might be able to come up with something that is simpler and does the same thing.

You could also have dry wells large enough so you can suck the water out to water the lawn with and only under extreme conditions would the sump pump turn on.


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

Dry wells will not work. Dig some test perc holes about 5' deep. Didn't perc anywhere close to optimal. I'm in heavy clay in alabama.


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## dd57chevy (Jun 21, 2015)

OK , I'm from Iowa , so I can't speak for how things are done down in 'Bama . But your house appears to be fairly new . In a new development . What does the builder/developer have to say ? Didn't they have to submit a drainage plan to the county/city based on geographical conditions ? How can a new house pass final inspection & be deemed inhabitable when part of your lot has a built in mosquito/malaria incubator ? 

Again , can't speak for 'Bama , but if you were in Iowa , this would not be _YOUR _problem . The solution wouldn't lie in French drains , laser levels or dry wells but in a competant attorney !


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## jabrock1 (Jan 17, 2013)

House is 12 years old. I have looked up the contractor/civil engineering company that wrote off on the plans. Both are no longer in business.


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## billtech (Jul 18, 2015)

Oh, they are probably still in business - just under different business names.


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