# Insulating with spray foam and caulking



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Spray foam along the rim joist between every floor joist is a great idea. 10% of the heat loss is through this area. You cannot over due it really. Just let it expand and saw off the excess as needed.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

*Low expanding Foam, or reg expanding foam.*

Is it better to use reg spray foam that expands alot, or Low expanding foam. For some reason I think that the low exp would be better for a few reason but don't know if I'm right with what i'm thinking. I feel for some reason it would be better and act more like a vapour barrier. Where the other one expands so much it may loose some of that quality of vapour or insulation value. The other thing is clean up, because the one that expands a lot can make a mess and leave you cutting lots out?
Also Price wise, if they are basically the same, thinking its better to get reg. that expands alot.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

Here are somemore pics to show what i'm trying to do. In one pic you can see the insulation and some kind of a wrap goes up behind it, almost like wax paper? Others are holes I want to plug by oil pipes coming in the house and plumbing and vents going up through the floor.


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## TitaniumVT (Nov 27, 2009)

Based on experience, I'd stay away from the "Great Stuff" crap they sell at Home Depot. It expands a lot and is extremely sticky (a huge mess to clean up if you get any on places where you don't want it).

I'd recommend going for the low expansion type rather than high expansion because it's easier to gauge whether/when you've sprayed enough. High expansion foam expands for hours, you'll have a lot more mess to clean up if you overdo it.

Another reason for not using the high expansion foam (or overdoing foam application in general), is that as the foam expands, it can crack warp your window frame, etc. The more pressure from overexpansion and the more you overdo it, the greater the risk of damage. With the low expansion foam, it's easier to eyeball when to stop with the application, and if you're off slightly, the foam isn't going to expand that much.

Lastly, ask the clerk at the store to show you the low expansion foam that's designed for doors and windows (I think DAP makes a product for this). I'm guessing the chemical formulation is such that it reduces expansion related damage (warping/cracking surrounding structures), which likely makes it your safest option for spray insulating.


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## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

Be very careful using expanding foam in confined spaces like around doors.windonws. Once it expands to fill the space it may continue expanding causing drywall and door/window frames to bow. Use the "minimal expanding" version.

Something that will help a lot, in warmer weather maybe, is to remove all the trim from doors and windows and insulate the air gaps there. Carefully pry off the trim after scoring the edges with a utility knife to break paint, caulk lines.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

low expansion foam is for insulation around doors and windows. For the other areas you use expanding foam. Look at a can of professional grade like that from Hilti. (not Home Depot Hilti which is not the same) These cans will even specify what I just stated.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> low expansion foam is for insulation around doors and windows. For the other areas you use expanding foam. Look at a can of professional grade like that from Hilti. (not Home Depot Hilti which is not the same) These cans will even specify what I just stated.


Home Depot Hilti is different than "professional" Hilti?


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

I've used Great Stuff foam a lot, and it _can_ make a mess, especially if you spray it on things that you don't really want to spray it on.

I've also used DAP low expansion foam. I've come back years later and found that the DAP had a crack running through it. Great Stuff foam is permanent. The DAP is also soft (but brittle) when cured. So if it's in a location where it might get hit by something it's probably not a good option.

I've never used any other brands, so maybe there are better alternatives, but Great Stuff gets the job done. I'd say if your pipes are so weak that expanding foam cracks them then it was time to replace them anyway! :laughing:

I've never had any problem with it flexing my windows or doors, but I don't try to fill the cavity in one application.

If I was in the original poster's position, I'd get the great stuff or other similar hard, expanding foam, and start spraying it around the metal pipes in the walls and other vertical surfaces to see how it works.

Regarding insulation value, the regular is probably better because it has larger air cavities. They are both closed cell foams, so no air can blow through them. In that one photo you have electric wires -- I'd use a fire blocking caulk around them. There are various different types of that ranging up to $20 a tube. I used the cheapest, which was about $5. Read the label and find one that's rated for residential use.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

What are we looking at in that first picture? Is it sideways?


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Looks like the vapor retarder on that fiberglass insulation is likely reversed, BTW.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Your first photo looks like the pipe may be wrapped with asbestos cloth although it can't be confirmed from here. If this is in an interior space where the fibers could get airborne, you might want to get it removed by a professional. Don't remove it yourself as you can cause more problems by spreading the fibers. If you have to work near it, try not to disturb it in any way.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

In the very first picture, that white covering on that pipe, could that be asbestos?

New Brunswick...Canada? or NJ?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> Home Depot Hilti is different than "professional" Hilti?


according to Hilti yes. I had a problem with the window foam sold at Home Depot. the entire case would only clog the guns. lost three guns. But Hilti said only Home Depot could help and that the stuff they sell is made for Home Depot and is not the same. Home Depot would not work with me saying I had to talk to the Hilti Rep. But it is really an independant group selling at Home Depots and not sure why their products are different. In the last three years I deal only with Hilti (commercial account) and have never had any more problems.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> according to Hilti yes. I had a problem with the window foam sold at Home Depot. the entire case would only clog the guns. lost three guns. But Hilti said only Home Depot could help and that the stuff they sell is made for Home Depot and is not the same. Home Depot would not work with me saying I had to talk to the Hilti Rep. But it is really an independant group selling at Home Depots and not sure why their products are different. In the last three years I deal only with Hilti (commercial account) and have never had any more problems.


That is odd. I can't believe they would have two different lines producing the stuff. Sounds like someone just didn't want to deal with problem. I've only lost one gun. It was my fault though. I put on a can that was four years past it's expiration date.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

In the first picture, I'm trying to show how big the gap is around my floor. I put pencil in and show that it is about 2" +. The last pic is where my oil lines come in the house. 
I have to say I went through 4 things of caulking and had to go get more. Does it ever have a strong smell, I can smell it my my unit.


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## rss021815 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok so that is a wood floor and some really old pink wall and baseboard molding I assume? Whomever installed the floor did not fit it up under the molding. Is it wood or a pergo type floor? Pergo is not connected to the sub-floor so if it is done improperly it has the potential to move. If it is wood I would pull of the baseboard and insulate below in the gap. Burn the old baseboard for heat  and consider putting in some thicker molding. It will help with the draft and have the added benefit of looking much neater.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Use some backer rod behind the foam or caulking: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=41298-81-71464&lpage=none
A lot cheaper. 
Be safe, Gary


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> In the very first picture, that white covering on that pipe, could that be asbestos?
> 
> New Brunswick...Canada? or NJ?


Its some kind of cloth that is wrapped around the heat vents that go to the second floor. Asbestos isnt cloth is it?


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

rss021815 said:


> Ok so that is a wood floor and some really old pink wall and baseboard molding I assume? Whomever installed the floor did not fit it up under the molding. Is it wood or a pergo type floor? Pergo is not connected to the sub-floor so if it is done improperly it has the potential to move. If it is wood I would pull of the baseboard and insulate below in the gap. Burn the old baseboard for heat  and consider putting in some thicker molding. It will help with the draft and have the added benefit of looking much neater.


The reason the floor doesn't seem to meet it is that it is lower that the baseboard. Not out from the wall. The idea was to take off that small trim and put matching trim that's in the house. The trim is about 1" thick by 6 or 7". It would not have looked like that if the trim had been done. The trim was never done because it wasn't a priority on my list of things to do. I didn't want to cover that gap till I new what to do with it. I think the trim may have been up like that because there was carpet I ripped out that was gross. I don't think i did that bad of a job laying the floor. Better than the gross carpet and I think its better to leave it open till you can do them right instead of covering it and forgetting about it. Which I know me and that's something I could do very easily.  I'm not a pro but Its lasted a long time and is still in good shape.
I discovered that any part of the house that they seemed to have renovated by removing the slats and plaster they Did a really poor job. Not just with the finish work but they didn't insolate behind it. I'm discover lots of problems with this place.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

bob22 said:


> Your first photo looks like the pipe may be wrapped with asbestos cloth although it can't be confirmed from here. If this is in an interior space where the fibers could get airborne, you might want to get it removed by a professional. Don't remove it yourself as you can cause more problems by spreading the fibers. If you have to work near it, try not to disturb it in any way.


I didn't realize asbestos could be cloth. Dam I hope not. How would I find out?


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

jerryh3 said:


> That is odd. I can't believe they would have two different lines producing the stuff. Sounds like someone just didn't want to deal with problem. I've only lost one gun. It was my fault though. I put on a can that was four years past it's expiration date.


Oh I was looking at one of those guns at home hardware today I think. I'm an impulse buyer so decided to wait. Are they worth the money do you think? They ranged from $36 to $90. Are they hard to keep clean?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

_2 threads on the same issue have been merged_


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

GBR in WA said:


> Use some backer rod behind the foam or caulking: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=41298-81-71464&lpage=none
> A lot cheaper.
> Be safe, Gary


That seems like a good idea, Thank you..


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

willowgirl said:


> Oh I was looking at one of those guns at home hardware today I think. I'm an impulse buyer so decided to wait. Are they worth the money do you think? They ranged from $36 to $90. Are they hard to keep clean?



You can buy more Great Stuff than you could possibly use for $90. I've only used about 5 cans on my house, and that include tearing rooms down to the studs and using foam on all the old siding boards from the inside.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

pyper said:


> You can buy more Great Stuff than you could possibly use for $90. I've only used about 5 cans on my house, and that include tearing rooms down to the studs and using foam on all the old siding boards from the inside.


Yes I know, I have lots of use for it. I have a few old places. I'm just worried about the cleaning part. I'm thinking it may be easier and cleaner using a gun? The store person said lots of people get the cheaper gun and it works fine for them.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> _2 threads on the same issue have been merged_





willowgirl said:


> ?? ??


You started 2 threads in 2 different areas with the exact same post
Both threads have now been merged into this thread


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> You started 2 threads in 2 different areas with the exact same post
> Both threads have now been merged into this thread


Oh ok, sorry. I wasn't sure which one it should be in, so put it in both. I thought you were someone emailing me saying they didn't have time becasue they had to much to do. ( the links that were in the message. ) :wink: Guess it will take a bit for me to figure things out.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Sure, asbestos was at one time woven into a cloth and around pipes was the #1 place you would have found it. 

Now whether or not _you_ have asbestos is anyone's guess without testing, but it looks like it to me and one other poster but it would more likely be asbestos if that pipe was carrying something warm or cold like a heating pipe or something...no reason for it otherwise. 

But if that pipe (and I can't tell if it's going north-south or east-west) is asbestos, then common sense says you'd best take care of that as a potential heath problem as opposed to an energy conservation problem. I mean, money you can always replace, not so your health.

We have an old asbestos mine now discontinued up here in Quebec. So if you're in New Brunswick, Canada I'd have to say there was a good chance that is. But if in New Brunswick, NJ, maybe not. Either way, not a simple matter to contend with.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> Sure, asbestos was at one time woven into a cloth and around pipes was the #1 place you would have found it.
> 
> Now whether or not _you_ have asbestos is anyone's guess without testing, but it looks like it to me and one other poster but it would more likely be asbestos if that pipe was carrying something warm or cold like a heating pipe or something...no reason for it otherwise.
> 
> ...


 
OMG, Does anyone know any kind of cost for having it removed?? Its ok isn't it unless its moved or touched? Or can there still be a problem because its wrapped around the heat pipe. I think I removed some if this about 2 yrs ago off a back vent. I've been looking at the last two vents that have it thinking I want to remove/fix it. I'm glad that I didn't do the rest of it. Is there any way to test if its made you sick/ or infected you? I'm in NB Canada.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

The best thing to do is not touch it. The fibres that are released when you move it are what does the most harm and especially if you breathe them in. And there's no way to tell if it has done any harm to you now except to say that's between you and your doctor.

But we can't change the past - but can affect the future. Grab the Yellow Pages and look up Asbestos and Mould Mitigation Services somewhere in there or phone your city hall. Asbestos problems go beyond your city, your province and even our country boundaries so it's a big problem that ought to be tended to. But someone at city hall should be familiar with what services are offered in your community, if not talk to the mayor about why not.

We are in the restoration business so I have an idea of the costs to remove asbestos; every case will be different so I can't speak to specifics but the whole area has to be sealed off, full protective gear provided for the works, the material has to be properly disposed of and air samples have to be taken. 3-man crew for about a day...washing, cleaning, hauling away - everything is required. Would your house insurance pay for it? don't know that either, some do.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

I would agree. Recommendations are to leave it alone. It presents no danger unless it is so deteriorated that the fibers are falling off of it.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> The best thing to do is not touch it. The fibres that are released when you move it are what does the most harm and especially if you breathe them in. And there's no way to tell if it has done any harm to you now except to say that's between you and your doctor.
> 
> But we can't change the past - but can affect the future. Grab the Yellow Pages and look up Asbestos and Mould Mitigation Services somewhere in there or phone your city hall. Asbestos problems go beyond your city, your province and even our country boundaries so it's a big problem that ought to be tended to. But someone at city hall should be familiar with what services are offered in your community, if not talk to the mayor about why not.
> 
> We are in the restoration business so I have an idea of the costs to remove asbestos; every case will be different so I can't speak to specifics but the whole area has to be sealed off, full protective gear provided for the works, the material has to be properly disposed of and air samples have to be taken. 3-man crew for about a day...washing, cleaning, hauling away - everything is required. Would your house insurance pay for it? don't know that either, some do.


I can't see my insurance paying for it, they aren't the best. Been looking for a new insurance company. 
Its just in that one spot. going up in the wall. to second floor, my bedroom. I now that alot of my duct work is old and rusty, some places it has holes. If there's holes in that long the way its possible it could be blowing that into my room. 
I think I removed some of that stuff a few years back like 4 or 5. I thought it was cloth, so if I did I wouldn't have had any kind of mask on. I've actually been off work for a few years because I've not been feeling well and they can't figure out what is wrong with me. They kind find problems but haven't been able to figure out the reason. So guess I will talk to my doctor. I did ask them if it could do with my reno work as I have a few old places and tend to do alot of demo. She didn't think so. Guess its a lesson to me, always be careful.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Bob Mariani said:


> I would agree. Recommendations are to leave it alone. It presents no danger unless it is so deteriorated that the fibers are falling off of it.


Is it recommended to encase the whole thing in new wrap ?

I know in one old basement this was the best method as leaving it alone meant that it would be hit eventually just by moving stuff around in the basement
Pipes were fairly low
I even built a soffit to enclose one set of pipes


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Don't know how correct the info is on this site but it seems reasonable:
http://www.maacenter.org/abatement/diyabatement.php


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

It may be possible that air currents blow asbestos fibres around the rooms, especially if it 'flaps' - but we can't tell that for sure -and yes, it may have something to do with your not feeling well - although many others things might also be as guilty in older homes. Sick-building syndrome and all that, mould, dust etc all might contribute. It's been known to happen.

And I'm not well placed to recommend any half-measures like encapsulation, or wrapping of asbestos etc when it comes to peoples health. I haven't time to do such things half-way. Remove it, is all I can recommend. Now your own proximity to it may affect the timetable of that, but in the long run, it'll have to go.

Just as some pople can live with large amounts of mould in their homes, most of us already do but then again some can't. So, if there are any indications of ill-health and mould s and asbestos are in the picture, how can you ever make a rational diagnosis without removing them? 

It's like a cat chasing it's tail.


As for the laminate flooring someone installed, all that is needed is quarter-round and that'll hide those gaps. That space is needed for expansion/contraction. 

But back to the foam...if your house scored a 'zero', it means that there are leaks to the outside, e.g. near the rim joist you mentioned, not necessarily where the toilet chase goes through the upstairs floor and meets the soil stack. Sure, there's a gap but filling that wouldn't affect your score. The gap where the oil pipes come into the house is more what I am thinking about....


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## Energyrater (Dec 11, 2009)

Scored a 0 on a blow test. As an experienced Energy Auditor who has done well over a thousand tests, I have never ever, ever heard of any such thing. Must be a scoring system that is within that company or area.

Homes are scored (at least in the US) by a HERS (Home Energy Rating System) index. On that scale, a home built to code (the "reference" home) scores a 100 and a home that uses zero net purchased energy scores a 0 (that would be the best). Leakier older homes can score up to 500 or so (very, very inefficient). Air sealing is a good thing to do as long as it's approached in a methodical way with knowledge behind it.

I can only assume that his/her scoring system must be something different.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

I've seen fiberglass wrap for pipes too, so you might not have asbestos. If it's in an unfinished space that you don't use, that you don't circulate air from, then it doesn't seem like it could be too big of a potential problem. If you're worried, get a certified industrial hygenist (yellow pages) to inspect it. Probably cost $100, but you'll know for sure.

Regarding the Great Stuff foam, if you spill it on a hard surface, you can scape it off. If you get it in your clothes, it's permanent. If you get it on your hands it will be there for a week or two. You can clean it off of things like clothing with mineral spirits if you get it before it cures.

Since you have an unfinished space to play in, I'd suggest just buying a can for $5 and see if you're happy with the results and the process. Seal around those pipes. If you don't like how it works, nothing lost.


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

I believe Great Stuff is what you want to use. It will not crack a pipe as one poster stated. It can and will push the frame of a door or window if you overfill the cavity. I have used great stuff many many times on doors and windows successfully. Practice where you can see the foam expand, keeping in mind you can add more the following day. Try to make as small a bead as you can. You will get the hang of it quickly but it takes a day or two to see the results.

As for clean up forget the mineral spirits and use acetone. Buy at least a quart at the hardware store. It will clean up you hands and anything else that will tolerate the acetone. Acetone is the main ingredient in nail polish remover, you will recognize the odor.

Rege


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## rss021815 (Dec 30, 2009)

The floor looks good. Sounds like you've got it under control and just like me have a few "need to finish" projects. :whistling2: Definitely insulate before the final trim though...but you know that.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

Energyrater said:


> Scored a 0 on a blow test. As an experienced Energy Auditor who has done well over a thousand tests, I have never ever, ever heard of any such thing. Must be a scoring system that is within that company or area.
> 
> Homes are scored (at least in the US) by a HERS (Home Energy Rating System) index. On that scale, a home built to code (the "reference" home) scores a 100 and a home that uses zero net purchased energy scores a 0 (that would be the best). Leakier older homes can score up to 500 or so (very, very inefficient). Air sealing is a good thing to do as long as it's approached in a methodical way with knowledge behind it.
> 
> I can only assume that his/her scoring system must be something different.


I'm attaching the top copy of the energy efficiency Evaluation Report. Just so you can see what it says, it may help figure out if its different than you evaluations. ( I thought maybe to that you may think I was over dramatizing it which I know people do sometimes. ) I just covered my address and the file number just for privacy reasons. The energy evaluator also said like you, he had never seen a score of 0 before.

I Spent new years caulking and spray foaming the bottom unit on the other side of the house. It took almost 10 tubes of caulking. But I did every seam, around every window and door frame, around all floor trims top and bottom of trims even wall corners where the previous owner had remove a door and put panel. You may think its over kill but there is a huge difference. I actually called in the furnace people because I thought there was a problem with there furnace because I couldn't hear it working for like 3 days after I did the caulking. I had the furnace people come in and of course as were walking down to the basement we could hear it click on. (Obviously it had been running but it was never going when I would check ) Usually that furnaces runs twice as long as mine so it did make a difference, wish I had done this sooner. I new it would help but never believed it would help as much as it did. I'm going to track the oil use to see how long it will last now that i have done that. I had orderd oil on Dec 19th and it was getting low by the 29 so that's what got my butt in gear.
I also put some pics of the unit that i was doing the caulking and sprayfoam in. You'll see one of the pics is a gap between where the back door meets the kitchen floor. I took the can of spray foam to fill that spot.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Gosh, I had to read that report twice to justify a "0" rating...what does the "56" mean then?


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> Gosh, I had to read that report twice to justify a "0" rating...what does the "56" mean then?


56 is their prediction of what the building will score after all the work is done.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Oh, I see...thanks for that, pyper. 

Hmm, still seems odd to me. Is this like your HERS scores?


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

The 56 is what my house will go up to if I do all the upgrades


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

willowgirl said:


> The 56 is what my house will go up to if I do all the upgrades


how much did the audit cost you?


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## Energyrater (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for the referenced report.

No, the scale that he/they use is either something used in your locale or a grading system that he/they use in their company. It is not a Home Energy Rating System (HERS) Index. On the HERS Index, a home built to code scores a 100 and the best possible score would be a 0 which would mean that the home doesn't need to use any purchased energy for any end use, (on-site generation combined with high-efficiency equipment and super-insulated walls and no thermal bridging.

I've never seen that number even approached. I've done well over a thousand home energy ratings and the best score I've ever had on a home is a 27. (photovoltaic generation, solar water heating, superinsulated walls, solar tuned windows, ERV). All of the other new homes I've done have scored between 48 and 95. Older homes, of course have scored much worse than that, (had one score in the 460s, old balloon-framed, no insulation, 40 year old atmospheric NG furnace, single-pane wood leaky windows, you get the picture).


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Yeah, I see that now...boy you must have a lot of work to do...! What was the top items they energy advisor told you you should do and do you think it's worth it?

FYI: the costs of the audits depend on where you live as they are provincial responsibilities, but under the federal ecoENERGY system that audit should have cost around $300...the grants would kick in if the HO does all the things recommended in the report within 18 months.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Energyrater:

The format that this guy used is national in its applicability since it is subsidized by the federal Gov't. So every report is similar. 

I'm interested in your particular training, Energyrater; are you BPI-certifiied and are you busy with residential or commerical inspections?

On that note, I found this:

_Both BPI and RESNET are home energy audit programs. RESNET is focused on new home construction, while BPI is focused on retrofitting existing homes. Home energy retrofits and weatherization incentives are a core component of federal stimulus funds and are driving a huge demand for home energy auditors._


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

CowboyAndy said:


> how much did the audit cost you?


It depends on the size of your house. Usually starts at $100 and goes up. The most is probably around $200. If its multie unit it can change to.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> Energyrater:
> 
> The format that this guy used is national in its applicability since it is subsidized by the federal Gov't. So every report is similar.
> 
> ...


Just a quick question, how do you guys get the pic by your name?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

pics are only for VIPs


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## Energyrater (Dec 11, 2009)

Ccarlisle,

Thanks for the insight, I know us neighbors do things differently sometimes.

I am certified as a home energy rater, a rater trainer, and a Quality Assurance designee through RESNET.

I am certified as a BPI Building Analyst I through BPI of course.

To some degree, what you have stated is true. RESNET seems to have the greater part of it's business through new homes largely due to it's acceptance as an oversight verification entity for the EPA ENERGY STAR for New Homes program. BPI is definitely focused on existing home retrofits and safety though RESNET does have an existing home audit standard in the standards I've referenced earlier which generally covers the rating and the combustion safety testing.

:thumbsup:


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

Bob Mariani said:


> pics are only for VIPs


Just curious -- how is VIP status determined on this forum?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

This was not a real answer. To add a picture click on the User CP label at the top or the page. Then from the selections at the left column select edit profile picture. Then find a picture to upload and attach from your computer.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Willowgirl:

I, for one, would be interested on what else is in your report, particularly the recommendations of what needs doing, the anticipated Government rebates and the costs (if any) associated with these recommendations...It is a pet peeve of mine the way we do "energy rating" things up here and thus I address this partly to 'Energyrater' being one who is 'in the business'.

One of the main, IMO, 'weaknesses' of our "Energy Retrofit"-type policies (there are a few different names to them) is that it is too political in nature for it to be useful to citizens.

On the one hand, politicians made big news about how many billions of $$ they are going to make available to citizens for energy saving programs, to retrofit existing homes with for example Energy-Star appliances...However, the system requires the ordinary citizen, like willowgirl in this case, to get an energy audit from a licensed *energy auditor*. An 'Energy Auditor' is in turn licensed by private certification companies. These certification companies receive most of the audit fees directly from the Government, so the citizen pays very little and the actual auditor makes minimum wage. 

Therefore, shortages of energy auditors. Therefore, fewer audits. Therefore subsidies left on the table. The citizen who does get an audit receives wild recommendations as to what (theoretically) ought to be done but most recommendations are impratical. 

Like "replace all 20 windows, get a $1000 rebate and save $400 a year"

That's all very good but at $500 per window, that's a $12,500+ investment. So, the citizen can't really take advantage of the rebates. So the citizen paid $350 for the audit, and of that the auditor got $100, the training company got $250. 

There's no point to this; the Government looks good, the trainer makes a fortune and the auditor looks for another line of work. Net loss. 

With the subsidy monies that the US - and the Canadian - Governments are making available, I wonder if their progams actually reach the right hands?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

This all depends like everything else on the quality of the auditor. When I do audits and recommendations I start with fixing the things that make the most difference. Software allows me to show the client that getting a low interest loan with a payment plan of $100 / mo will be beneficial since the energy savings proposed will reduce heating/cooling costs by $125. Requiring a certified auditor is good since we need more controls of assuring qualified trained individuals to provide better guidance to the homeowner. With the blower door in place we can make simple air sealing tasks and retest. Thus showing positive improvements within a few hours. This is not speculation. It is using the art developed from years of contracting combined with the science of treating the house as a whole system.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

I am not disputing the need for quality auditors at all, nor am I playing down the usefulness of this profession. 

However, in Canada, being an independent energy auditor (even trained to BPI standards) you cannot access the Government subsidies and means you fight against, for example, Home Depot or Sears energy auditors, who require the auditor to have his own equipment (fair enough), his own certification (?) - but only to be paid $80 per 2-hour audit. 

Not an easy sell.


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## Energyrater (Dec 11, 2009)

Alot of good concerns voiced here.

I guess a little explanation is necessary here.

I, and many certified Home Energy Raters were certified before all of these govt subsidies were implemented as part of these new "stimulus" monies were made available. We who have been in it before this chaos have and still use software which creates some really helpful reports in my opinion. As part of our software, an Improvement analysis can be generated and that is totally by rater input. We look at the building as we have analyzed the details and see where potential improvements can be made. Then, we can input the improvement, the costs (separatable by labor/materials/permits/inspections if we so desire), specify the life of the improvement measure and then the software does the annual savings analysis of each measure to show whether it is cost effective or not. This report, along with building leakage, duct leakage, and infrared scans sometimes create a pretty good picture of what really should be done. Many raters who have been in the business for several years know what works and what doesn't. Sometimes, homeowners see a gap and assume they should caulk it, (and maybe they should?), but some more construction and leakage knowledge may tend to show that the hole they are caulking or foaming represents putting you finger in a flow of water (the leakage just finds another path). Or even worse, they seal up a weep hole.:no:

This is not to say that homeowner can't do effective improvments. As a matter of fact, we send a report and recommendations with each report with pictures of problem areas and what should/could be done and a list of contractor (not affiliated with us), that can do the work. OR, the homeowner can do it themselves.

Unfortunately, I think a natural unintended consequence of new government monies and quite a few newly unemployed is a glut of new raters who may have the best of intentions but not the knowledge behind what they are doing and they want to jump on what they perceive to be the next big thing with some job security. Not for me to judge really though.

To sum it all up, I believe in Energy efficient homes for 1 reason and 1 reason ONLY. That is, to save the homeowner's money and to hopefully influence new home builders and subs to do better. Some others do it to help the environment. Fine for them, but I don't want my job to be based on politics or shaky science. Just my opinion. Whatever floats your boat.

The company I work for doesn't receive any funding or pay for our services from the government. And we want to keep it that way. We are happily a for-profit corporation.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Energy Raters usually work with builders and with new homes. Normally they provide a report but are not the ones doing the work. But BPI (Building Performance Instutite) is more for retrofitting existing structures. They are the ones that will air seal and insulated and test ventilation and HVAC systems. The do the work. As such cost for this estimate should not deter anyone. For instance I can give Audit parties... Free audit report for anyone bringing in 6 neighbors to see the process as well as the quick and reportable fixes that can be made. This leads to more work. And since we do every trade even something as small as fixing the outlet for a stove has lead to 180,000 additions. Use these tools as another service and another way to market your skills.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Very interesting Bob, thanks...!


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## Energyrater (Dec 11, 2009)

Bob,

Audit parties.... Very clever marketing concept :thumbsup:


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> Willowgirl:
> 
> I, for one, would be interested on what else is in your report, particularly the recommendations of what needs doing, the anticipated Government rebates and the costs (if any) associated with these recommendations...It is a pet peeve of mine the way we do "energy rating" things up here and thus I address this partly to 'Energyrater' being one who is 'in the business'.
> 
> ...


I'll try to scan some of the report and post it when I have alittle more time. The money thing though is kind of an issue. 
There are a few things that I do and some that I don't agree with. One thing I didn't agree with is that they thought I should blow more insulation in walls that already have blown insulation. (I have no vapour b either on the because my place is the plaster.) I though the doors and windows were one should maybe have been at the top but I could be wrong. ) My back door is an old wood door which is impossible to stop the draft around it.
I called for cost from a few contractors and window company's to have the ext. of house insulated, siding, windows and doors. The cost was around ave. $36,000.00 which totally floored me. The next part was when I started asking questions and break downs of cost. I was amazed at the lack of info. they had for me. I'm very particular now about getting break downs, exactly what's done and type of materials. Also the way it was going to be done, ex type of widow and installation process. Non of the company's would get the permits either, I'm the one that's responsible to get them.
I have a large wrap around front deck with a roof that goes around over it. No one even brought up the this deck/porch. I really didn't think of it till one day and called to see if any of the places had taken it into consideration and not one did. If someone is going to pay $36000 into there house I don't think there going to leave a deck on that is falling off the house. Also for them to do the work correct, I believe they would need to fix the deck, or remove it and put it back on to get the proper wrap and stuff.
Some of the company's also weren't going to take off the old siding and wanted to go over it. It may be an excepted way of doing things but I don't feel its the proper way. I think you need to go right down to the house to make sure everything is ok and so you can get a good seal when putting on the ext insulation.
Sorry I know I'm rambling on about stuff, but I feel its hard to find company's that take everything into consideration when doing a job. And will take the time to go over the information to make sure the home owner understands what's being done and if anything is being left out.
I added the next 2 pages of the energy eval.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

I just wanted to show a picture of an older home I was taking the siding off of. A couple of people suggested i just paint the singles and others said I should go right over them. I've seen many place's that they have gone over the old siding and just doesn't seem good to me, either trapping in moisture or wood that may be rotting, a place for bugs or mice to live etc.
This place seems that had done the same and went over the old ext. of house with singles. I found alot of moisture damage and problem areas.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

This wood must be removed. Then install 5/8" plywood and a new roofing shingle.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

Bob Mariani said:


> This wood must be removed. Then install 5/8" plywood and a new roofing shingle.


Yes I know, thats why I took a pic of it and measured it. In the spring any place that has issues like this will be replaced. Its actually thicker than 5/8". I was showing this picture as an example of why I think people need to remove old siding before putting new on, so areas like this can be fixed instead of covered.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

pyper said:


> Just curious -- how is VIP status determined on this forum?


 I was wondering the same thing?


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

When it comes to getting an energy evaluation to help with heating cost ect. I'm ok with needing to pay to have one done so I know what needs to be done and then there is a report to go by when things are done. Then you need to get your funds from the government. Heres my concern, what if you've gone through the expense of doing what they say needs to be done but the numbers don't add up correct. So now you've spent alot of money so can qualify for the grants and you don't get them. Or maybe the work done isn't they way the government wants it done. I really think there needs to be some kind of list of contractors, that have gone through some kind of test or training to do things they way you need it done by the government. Same with the cost, you can get cost that are different by thousands of dollars.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

This is how it works now. The grants in CANADA and the proposed tax credits in the USA only apply for costs from work done by a certified building analysist (BPI) or home energy rater. (HERS) A full report is issued detailing the ratings and where a house needs work. Emphasis of the work suggested is on items that give the biggest dollar return. This is why the audit is the way to go. You are fixing what is most uselfull not blindly sealing everything. And more importantly you also address the issue of being too tight in which the house is unsafe. Both leaks and ventilation need to be equally addressed. The house must be treated as one entire system. Builders usually build too tight or miss many common problem areas. Either way at least 80% of homes need fixing.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Thank you, willowgirl, for giving us the detail of your home audit. Also, pretty well what I thought you'd say about the process and very much in line with the state of affairs here. IMO, sad...

Well, this is the way *parts* of it works up here i.e. the Government way of flashing subsidies around so that homeowners, like willowgirl, are encouraged to spend $35,000 on their homes to take advantage of, what $5,000 in tax rebates, _only_ if they have the work done by a 'selected' contractor? 

Who wins here? If the HO spends the recommended $35,000 on these upgrades, does the value of her house increase? Nope. Is the Government out any money for having encouraged this process? Nope they get back their monies from the sales tax (12%). Does the auditor make money? Nope; he gets $150 gross for four+ hours work. 

The people who make the money may be the 'selected' ie, approved-by-the-Government contractors and, the trainers of the auditors.

What is needed here is for a BPI-trained independent contractor/energy auditor to do an evaluation that makes sense to the HO and carry out the work that the HO requests in light of the savings it will generate.

That's one weakness of the present system: no-one can tell the HO how much savings per year these recommendations will generate, what the payback period is, and what effect these alterations do on the value of the home i.e. as I think Bob said, a global view of the home. 

If someone told me to replace my 30 windows, I'd laugh. Then ask him what experience he has in construction. Then, I'd ask for a refund. 

It just seems so...can't find a better word for it: "political" in nature. In then end you have a disgruntled homeowner, who most likely will _not _go through the process of blindly spending $36,000 to improve her home's comfort. What she will do is (a) do the work herself or (b) look for an under-the-table handyman or (c) hire a proficient, licensed, BPI contractor and do things in stages according to the budget, with permits where necessary.

Oh, and nothing good ever comes from covering things up in the renovation industry.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

willowgirl said:


> When it comes to getting an energy evaluation to help with heating cost ect. I'm ok with needing to pay to have one done so I know what needs to be done and then there is a report to go by when things are done. Then you need to get your funds from the government. Heres my concern, what if you've gone through the expense of doing what they say needs to be done but the numbers don't add up correct. So now you've spent alot of money so can qualify for the grants and you don't get them. Or maybe the work done isn't they way the government wants it done. I really think there needs to be some kind of list of contractors, that have gone through some kind of test or training to do things they way you need it done by the government. Same with the cost, you can get cost that are different by thousands of dollars.


Exactly my point. It's not the home inspector's job to tell you what you need doing, his mandate by law is *only to report what he sees. *And from what I see, the auditor who did your job, did the same What is needed is precisely what you said: an independent contractor with construction experience and with auditors training - so has IR training and a blower door. 

An example. If a "home inspector" inspects an older home and finds knob-and-tube wiriing, he can _only report that._ Can't fix it, nor recommend a contractor who can. Now an independent contractor will also report that but be able to fix it, not personally, but using an subcontracting electrician who works with him and who pulls the permits. 
:thumbsup:


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

willowgirl said:


> When it comes to getting an energy evaluation to help with heating cost ect. I'm ok with needing to pay to have one done so I know what needs to be done and then there is a report to go by when things are done. Then you need to get your funds from the government. Heres my concern, what if you've gone through the expense of doing what they say needs to be done but the numbers don't add up correct. So now you've spent alot of money so can qualify for the grants and you don't get them. Or maybe the work done isn't they way the government wants it done. I really think there needs to be some kind of list of contractors, that have gone through some kind of test or training to do things they way you need it done by the government. Same with the cost, you can get cost that are different by thousands of dollars.


Yup. And there's no guarantee you'd even *get* the money from the Government - even if you _did_ all the repairs in the audit; says right on the NRCan website that these ecoENERGY subsidies are "available as long as their is money for that" or words to that effect. 

So, just at the time when the US has spent some $800+billion in subsidies and our Government $100Billion, they're both looking for more money_ input _- not _output_ like these grants. So they can pull the plug at any time.

And guess who's holding the bag?


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## Shel8 (5 mo ago)

Spray foam insulation is a great, affordable way to improve your home’s energy efficiency and comfort level. Add some spray foam insulation to your attic, and you can save on utility costs and improve your home's overall energy performance.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

@Shel8 You are responding to a 13 year old thread. Check the dates.


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