# Killing vegetation for a clean grass slate



## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

You plow it shovel depth with a round nose shovel. 8x10, gawd, this old man could have that done in less than an hour.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

There is no way, not with all the roots. I tried, not only was it hard work that was not getting anywhere, it was just breaking my shovels and rakes. I could rent a mini excavator though, but I'm thinking without actually killing the roots they'll just sprout again.

Was thinking of using lots of chemical based killer, but I don't want to compromise the soil either as I'll wait to flatten it out with a roller and plant grass seed after. 

This is what I'm dealing with, most of that is NOT grass but thick stems of various weeds, I cut it all up with the hedge trimmer and left it in piles for now but I need to kill off all the roots and start over or it will just keep regrowing. 





It looks less bad in the pics than it really is.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

put WEED-B-GONE MAX just on the leaves of those weeds. allow at least a few days of no rain/water. then wait. reapply after 1 week. keep doing this. it will take a while, months perhaps. but the weeds will eventually completely die, and leave the soil just fine for grass.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Use a weed and grass killer (kill all) that is not active in the soil. One that only works on living plants. Most veggies are safe to plant after 3-7 days. *Do not buy the product that kills for a year.* That is not what you want.


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## NorthernWinds (Mar 1, 2015)

Safer way is just solarize it. Put down heavy plastic ( my gardening friends disagree on whether black or clear plastic is better ). Weight the plastic down with stones or something that holds the heat in so it builds up and kills the vegetation underneath.

It may take longer in Canada, depending on how much sun you get in that area and how intense the sun is.

I've read that vinegar also can kill weeds but in my experience it would take a lot of vinegar to kill the patch in the photo.

On the other hand, sounds like Senior Citizen is pretty good with a round nose shovel - maybe he'll come and do it for you! 

Some gardeners use cardboard, but it will degrade during rain and the growth underneath might have a chance to survive.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

round up, kills roots and all, does not compromise the soil, farmers use it to kill weeds and plant corn the next day


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Personally I would just rent a Sod Cutter and go that route. Find out the depth you need to set it, then off you go. Any chemicals you apply, no matter how they are made. Will cause no grass to grow there. Especially since grass is really a weed.

The other way if you do not want to rent the sod cutter, get a Square shovel and cut out the bad weedy sections. Put down some Black dirt mixed with compost, then use Hydro Seed that you can get anywhere, or just put down sod.

Then just water and hang out on the hammock relaxing.


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## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

I say if your soil is that hard and compacted and rooted that you're breaking garden tools, you need to rectify that situation before new grass is planted as it won't grow robustly enough and the weeds will take over again.

The best defense against weeds is a healthy, robust lawn.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i just did my yard yesterday. creeping charley. now i wait.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

this is creeping charley i sprayed yesterday. can't see it in the pic, but it has started to wilt :thumbsup:


this is a plant that i sprayed a while ago. while it looks to be somewhat alive. when i cut it off, it will never grow back.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> I say if your soil is that hard and compacted and rooted that you're breaking garden tools, you need to rectify that situation before new grass is planted as it won't grow robustly enough and the weeds will take over again.
> 
> The best defense against weeds is a healthy, robust lawn.


It's not so much the soil but all the roots in it. I think once all the roots are dead and I've completely dried out that soil I'll have a better chance at it. We don't get enough sun here so don't think the plastic would make it get hot enough but I did end up going with a blue tarp, though I did not realize how much light it still lets in, so I may need to put something else. for now I just took the clippings and spread over the tarp to weigh it down and block more light. I recently trimmed my hedges so I put all the branches on it too. 

failing that I'll use the Weed B Gon or Roundup as suggested, I figured that would compromise the soil making it harder to get grass to grow, but if it's safe then I might do that. I did use it for the rest of my lawn as I have lot of weeds too, the first application worked well to kill the dandelions, now I'm left with 3 leaf clovers and other leafy stuff so I did another application recently.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Red Squirrel said:


> failing that I'll use the Weed B Gon or Roundup as suggested, I figured that would compromise the soil making it harder to get grass to grow, .


it will, if you use to much.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I use a brand from a farm store, not one of the name brands. These things tend to be somewhat regional anyway. Mine says replant grass anytime after 7 days. Ornamental gardens after 1 day, veggies are listed with varying times to planting.

For me this works far better than any of the name brands. 

Weed be Gone is a selective herbicide that only kills *broadleaf* weeds and not what you want for lawn restoration.

Active ingredient:
Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt 41% by volume,

Read and follow the dilution directions on the bottle you purchase.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

My $0.02 - try some horticultural vinegar (20% acetic acid), spray it on and cover with thick black plastic for the summer. In August peel up the plastic, rake and pull up what you can, overseed.

Cut out as much of the roots as you can. It's tedious but it must be done, or else you'll be doing this all again next year. Anything that still pops up (and it will), cut it off at ground level ASAP. Do that enough and whatever roots are down there will just starve and die.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Where would I buy vinegar in bulk like that? Or is it possible to actually buy pure acetic acid so I can dilute myself? 

Another thought, would boiling water also work? I was thinking I could make a jig out of copper that I lay over the BBQ, fire it up and have instant boiling water coming out of the hose, just soak the area. Not sure if a garden hose would handle boiling water though... I've also heard boiling water will permanently make the soil not able to grow anything, is this really the case? I can't see why it would. I think it's similar to the myth that you can't water plants with water that has been microwaved (Even after it cooled off). 

I've had the tarp on it for now, will leave it there for another week or so and then pull it up and see what kind of damage I did. It's been raining a lot, maybe I got a nice mushroom grow op going on under there. lol


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

Red Squirrel said:


> Where would I buy vinegar in bulk like that? Or is it possible to actually buy pure acetic acid so I can dilute myself?
> 
> Another thought, would boiling water also work? I was thinking I could make a jig out of copper that I lay over the BBQ, fire it up and have instant boiling water coming out of the hose, just soak the area. Not sure if a garden hose would handle boiling water though... I've also heard boiling water will permanently make the soil not able to grow anything, is this really the case? I can't see why it would. I think it's similar to the myth that you can't water plants with water that has been microwaved (Even after it cooled off).
> 
> I've had the tarp on it for now, will leave it there for another week or so and then pull it up and see what kind of damage I did. It's been raining a lot, maybe I got a nice mushroom grow op going on under there. lol


A good garden center might have horticultural vinegar, but you might have to ask around for it. You can get it online. If you have heavy black plastic and a lot of sunshine, you probably don't need vinegar, but if it is shady and cool and otherwise hard to heat up the ground this could help kill stuff. 

Boiling water could work, but I think it would be a lot of work, and all you really are doing is cooking the plants. Black plastic will get you to the same place with much less effort. Make sure to keep the edges tight to the ground to minimize air circulation under the tarp; you want it hot hot hot under there.

Don't worry about the bacteria - even if you could completely pasteurize the upper few inches of soil (unlikely), there are bacteria deeper down that will repopulate the surface soil. Anything that could actually kill all the bacteria in the first few inches of soil would probaly take out your neighborhood and constitute a civil defense emergency.:laughing:


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Just peaked under the tarp and stuff is turning yellow, but not brown, so think it's still living just less healthy. I will try to find a black tarp locally and put that over as the blue one lets too much light in even with all the stuff I piled on top. We don't get much sun here so I don't think sun alone would get it hot enough but worth a shot. Good to know about bacteria. I had heard that boiling water basically nukes everything to the point that the soil is not usable. I'll use boiling water as plan B. Fire is tempting but too many things that could burn around there like the fence and shed. 

I will probably end up having to wait till next year to actually till and plant the lawn though. It's already July, in a month from here we will be getting frost at night so probably too late to put grass seeds down at that point. I put seeds down in another area when I originally posted this and they finally started to germinate now.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

my weeds are dieing off. they would be totaly dead by now, but all this darned rain is washing the WBGmax off.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

I got sick with a bad cold, so have not had a chance to check my tarp in a while but it's still there. There's stuff growing around it that I'll have to remove manually, but nothing seems to be growing under it... ex: it has not lifted. When I did check earlier everything was turning yellowish kinda like when you put something on grass and take it off a few days later. Not necessarily dead but weaker. 

When I get the chance I'll pull it off and see if the ground can be manipulated with a metal rake so I can "till" it then pack it down and then add seeds. Probably too late in the year now to try to grow grass from seeds but figured it's worth a shot anyway. Worse case I start very early next year before weeds start to grow back. 

Funny thing is I am toying with building a shed there, but it will still be good to have a clean slate instead of trying to build in that forest of weeds.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

You can try dormant seeding. Prepare the ground, wait for the first snow of the season, and cast the seed just before the snow hits. The seed will stay dormant and the freezing and thawing of the ground will help work the seed into the soil. When the conditions are right in the spring, it will sprout.

Or you can just wait until spring.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Finally got a day where it's not raining so managed to take the tarp and tree branches off today. I should have went with a darker tarp though as there are some small plants that still managed to keep growing and still lot of roots, but in general the worse is gone. hopefully it wont recatch. I just tilled the soil, it's mostly clay. Got lucky that it was 15C so was not too bad compared to if it was 20 with sun being out. I will buy some peat moss (can get in larger quantities than regular top soil) and put it over and try to flatten it as best as I can and put the grass seeds. They may not catch on time but I'll give it a shot anyway. With all the rain we get at this time of year it might accelerate it.

Now hopefully the weeds wont come back before the lawn seeds germinate though. They spreaded behind my neighbour's shed too but I'll just use Weed B Gon. Debating on spraying some on the bare soil too as precaution but it might make it harder for the lawn to grow, what do you think? Vinegar seems to be what is recommended everywhere but really not sure were to buy I bulk, we don't really have any places here that would sell that. There's a Costco 3 hours from here, they'd probably have it but it's kinda far.  Did find some on Amazon but they want $175 for a 128oz bottle. Yikes! At that price I'll just get weed man lol.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Update: I end up having to till it with a shovel and what not, and pack it down, and skimmed a bit of clay out to make room for black earth and peat moss mixture. Added seeds, and surprisingly they already started to grow even now that summer is over. Maybe with the frost in the morning it's actually giving it more moisture during the day. 



There are still a lot of those leafy plants growing though, They're impossible to kill completely but I got the worse out, and I'll just have to pull them out by hand and try to keep up. No joke, they were growing as I was tilling it. I'd turn around and some that were not growing an hour before were growing. 

Weed B gon weakens them then they just continue growing. I left my tarp behind the neighbour's shed to kill at least a good section of them. Next summer I'll have to keep tackling this but at least there will be grass to help drown them out. I'll plant more grass seeds in spring.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

Mow high and mow often next season, and keep up the hand pulling. That will help kill off the lingering broadleaf stuff and keep the grass tall and thick to help smother it. You will probably want to overseed with some more grass seed next spring to really get it thickly established.

You'll get there!


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## Adastra (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks for the update, Red Squirrel. I just bought a house and there's a huge patch in the front yard that is nothing but weeds (see attached). I was thinking of going the plastic route but wasn't sure how well it would work. Nice to see that you got results with it.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

This grew surprisingly well, we had a very late winter start, our first snow was actually only a few days ago. 

I think it got thick enough that it should take again next year. If I can get the lawn to take properly then I can get a better chance at eradicating the leafy plants. I just realized I never took a pic of the plants I'm talking about, and you can't really see them in the pic I took, I'll have to take one tomorrow as it's suppose to be warm out and the little snow we got will melt. It's not the big dandelion ones you see, those are easy to get rid of as they're big with stronger roots that come out instead of breaking.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

So this is how things are looking now, there are lot of weeds but those are the easier ones to pull I've just been lazy and figure it's probably too late in the year to worry about it anyway.




I'm actually very surprised at how fast that grass grew. I tried to get grass to grow in another area all summer and it barely grew. I guess the location is a big factor too, the location I have trouble with is on the side of the house and it does not get as much rain. 

these are the weeds that were being problematic but most are actually drowned out by the lawn already:



When you pull those, the stem just breaks and they regrow within a day. 

I will have to make sure to be on top of it in spring and just keep pulling them, I might opt to not mow that section of lawn for a while, just to make sure it gets a chance to get real thick.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

In the future throwing a piece or two of plywood on there would have killed everything after a couple of weeks. If you want to really kill stuff quick, put an upside down glass patio table over the area when it's sunny. I flipped my table over for a few minutes when I was cutting the grass under it and the sun baked that spot. The grass was brown for weeks, but finally mostly recovered. If a few minutes did that I imagine days of that would kill everything.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

What an interesting thread! Have you considered that that might be tree or ornamental bush seedlings? Especially since you say the roots are so strong. I'm sure you know that some trees spread through long root systems. Take a look around the neighborhood for sources of seeds or roots from a tree that has similar foliage. Just a thought. In regard to weeds, I lived on an orchard and it had many Roundup (glyphosate) resistant weeds because of the use by farmers. Bing had many photos of resistant weeds in Ontario, Canada. I just searched Roundup resistant weeds in Ontario & they popped up. I know in California, we have Roundup in the groundwater, even. It looks like you've done a good job with the tarp. I found this site regarding Ontario:
http://www.agannex.com/energy/predicting-the-next-glyphosate-resistant-weed-new
Weed B Gone has photos of weeds it kills on it's webpage.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Okay, I think I found it. All the other info I wrote doesn't apply. I think it is ornamental goutweed. It was imported to North America from Asia but has become invasive. Good news is you can eat it! ( But, not to be confused with water hemlock) The recommended way to kill it is what you did, only black tarp. http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2014/04/03/how-to-kill-weeds-naturally-goutweed/


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Nik333 said:


> Okay, I think I found it. All the other info I wrote doesn't apply. I think it is ornamental goutweed. It was imported to North America from Asia but has become invasive. Good news is you can eat it! ( But, not to be confused with water hemlock) The recommended way to kill it is what you did, only black tarp. http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2014/04/03/how-to-kill-weeds-naturally-goutweed/


Yep that's exactly how it looked like fully grown. I believe it was deliberatly planted by the previous owner as it flowers and is pretty, but it just got out of control. They're not kidding when they say it grows fast, while I was trying to manually erradicate with a shovel, an hour later spots that I had done it was starting to grow again.

Because of El Nino we still don't have any snow or very cold weather yet so the grass I planted has managed to get very thick. I wont cut it this year and allow it to continue to drown out what is left of those weeds. Next year if I'm fast enough I should be able to take care of what's left manually.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

Red Squirrel said:


> Because of El Nino we still don't have any snow or very cold weather yet so the grass I planted has managed to get very thick. I wont cut it this year and allow it to continue to drown out what is left of those weeds. Next year if I'm fast enough I should be able to take care of what's left manually.


Nice job! It has indeed been a good fall for seeding grass. I might even have to pull out the mower one more time. 

Keep that grass happy in the spring and you'll be good to go.


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