# Pump Control test Franklin



## jrclen

wkosbob said:


> Trying to test a Franklin contol for a 1/2 hp 230 volts submersible pump control box. Does anyone have the instructions. I am getting ohm readings that seem wrong. model 2801054915. No water and cannot belive the pump has failed so fast. My last pump lasted 25 yrs. Pump is getting power. but not running.
> 
> Bill


Check for voltage across the wires which go to the pump from the contactor. If you show 240 volts or so, either the conductors or the pump have failed. Testing for DC resistance with your ohm meter will only confirm you have continuity through the motor winding and the wires going to the pump.


----------



## J. V.

jrclen said:


> Check for voltage across the wires which go to the pump from the contactor. If you show 240 volts or so, either the conductors or the pump have failed. Testing for DC resistance with your ohm meter will only confirm you have continuity through the motor winding and the wires going to the pump.


 

I am not familiar with this control. Does it have a contactor controlled by a pressure switch? If so, does the contactor energize (pull in)? If not check the pressure switch. 
Disconnect the motor and make sure all the controls work properly. If the controls work right it is either the motor, cable or overload setting. 
Also, check the contactor. Make sure the contacts are clean and making good contact with each other. If you get this thing working, check the current on each motor leg. These readings should be very close.


----------



## micromind

This is a 3 wire submersible pump motor, the resistance between any two of the 3 wires should be different . The reason being that one of the wires is a common, one is the run winding, and the other is the start winding. If you have resistance between any two wires below 200 ohms, and infinite resistance from any wire to ground, your motor is likely OK. 

There are several types of control boxes, yours is likely a capacitor start-induction run. It has one capacitor (usually a round thing, about 1"-2" diameter, 2"-4" long), a potential relay (usually a square thing about 1"X1" or so), and an overload relay (another round thing, with a button sticking outside of the box) in it. If it has two capacitors, then it is capacitor start-capacitor run. 

Here's how it works; when voltage is applied, the run winding is energized, and stays energized until voltage is removed. The start winding is also energized, but the capacitor is wired in series with it. When the potential relay senses the motor speed to be about 1/2-2/3 of running speed, it opens (turns off) a contact, and de-energizes the start winding. In a capacitor run type, this relay simply removes the start (larger) capacitor from the circuit, and the start winding remains energized through the run (smaller) capacitor. 

Now, for some actually useful info. First, since this is a fairly new installation, make sure the control box matches the motor. They're not interchangeable. HP and voltage must match. If it doesn't, the potential relay will not de-energize the start winding, and it'll burn up. 

If it's the right box, make sure it's wired correctly. Black, red, and yellow must go to the proper terminals. I know this sounds incredibly stupid, but push the overload button. If it has tripped, we need to figure out why. With the box de-energized, measure resistance across the 2 terminals on the overload. It should be very low, less than 1 ohm. The next likely problem will be the capacitor. It'll have a mFD rating (as a wild guess, I'd say yours will be around 60mFD or so), and a voltage rating. If your meter has a capacitor test function, first short the 2 terminals out with a piece of wire or a screwdriver (they can store a charge for a long time!), then remove at least one lead. They cannot be tested while in the circuit. If it needs replaced, the mFD rating must match, the voltage rating can be higher, but not lower. 

About the only other thing is the potential relay, it's a bit more involved to test, and we need to know if it's 2, 3, or 4 terminal. If the above checks out, write back and one of us will guide you through it. 

Rob


----------



## wkosbob

*readings*

The control box is a franklin .37kw 230volts
5 amp 1/2 hp made 12/05
60 hz

One large Capacitor no second capacitor. one blue relay switch.

3 wire R, Y B IN BOX FROM PUMP

R TO Y UNDER 200 OHS
R TO B UNDER WAY UNDER 0 DIAL MOVES FAR RIGHT
Y TO B UNDER 200 OHMS

WELL WIRE TO GROUND. ALL 3 WIRES READ SAME 30 OHMS


ANY THOUGHTS


----------



## micromind

Something doesn't make sense here, yellow is the common, black is the run winding, and red is the start winding. The resistance from yellow to black should be very low, usually only a few ohms. The resistance from yellow to red should be higher, and if you add these two, it should equal the resistance from black to red. If these measurements were taken with the wires connected to the control box, disconnect them and measure resistance across the wires going to the well. 

The 30 ohms to ground worries me alot. It should be infinite. Can you take the wellhead cap off and un-splice the pump at the top? Then you can determine whether the ground fault is in the pump motor (or the wires going down to it), or the wires from the control box to the wellhead.

The 0 ohms from red to black indicates that these two wires are shorted somewhere, unless they were still connected to the control box when measured. This should be the highest resistance of any two wires. Unfortunately, faults like this usually occur because the splices at the motor, which are under water, were not made completely waterproof. Over time, because water conducts (sort of), they'll heat up and may have melted together. You might get lucky though, if the cable from the control box to the well is direct-buried (or in a conduit full of water), and it was knicked during installation, it'll likely be easier to fix. Once you get the splice apart at the wellhead, you'll know which way to go.

Rob


----------



## wkosbob

*well risence*

Rob

Disconnected the pump wires at the well head and took the following readings for red, yellow and black to ground.

Red, black 15 ohms

yellow 4 ohms


When touching Red to black at the well head from the pump the reading goes to zero.


----------



## wkosbob

*wire short*

Looks like it could be a short at the pump or a bad pump.


----------



## jrclen

Thanks for all the info Rob, very informative posts. :thumbsup:


----------



## wkosbob

*Pump*

I guess it is time to deal with the installer, a pump should not goe after 2 years, this should be fun YUCK. Anybody know the warranty info on Franklin pumps?


----------



## J. V.

Micromind, Sorry, I had 3 phase on the brain. I have to remember we are working with mostly single phase on this forum.


----------



## wkosbob

*Rob*

You were correct and very helpfulful thank you. 

The yellow wire was bad near the pump. When fixed all was well.

I really appreciate your input you were spot on.

Dealer wanted to sell me a new pump but the 2yr old pump was just fine.

Next time I have no need for the service guy.

Bill


----------



## micromind

I absolutely LOVE IT when we're (any of us) able to solve a problem here. That's the whole purpose of the forum! 

I'm glad you've got water again, it's terrible to be without. Sort of makes us appreciate stuff we take for granted. 

Rob


----------



## wkosbob

*thank you*

You truely put me on the right track. I was amazed how the wire had sucu a strange nick in it so deep in the well. It was like someone cut a piece out with an exacto knife. The other good part is I insisted we test the 2 yr old pump and it was fine. The service guy said they wanted to replace the pump and I said no. Saving over $700.00. As it turned out he was a cool guy and we worked togother to find the break and reset the pump. Again thanks for all your help. I know now I can do this job blind if needed.

Bill


----------



## jrclen

I think it's great too when this forum works for someone. And we can all pick up more information too. I never saw a control and pump set up this way. Usually the well guys do the connections from the disconnect I provide them. The only ones I've ever worked on afterward, have a simple 2 wire relay operated by pressure. And 2 wires running down to the pump. So I got some valuable information for the future from Rob too. Thanks.


----------



## plumcass

*submersible pump quit*

I am new to the format .
I would like to ask "micromind" a similar ?. I have a Gould 13GS10 1 hp, 3 wire pump not working and I followed your directions you gave to wkosbob. Disconnected the pump wires at the box next to the tank and going to the pump. Checking the ohms on the 10x scale I got:
Red to Black = 300 ohms 
Red to Yellow = 1 ohm
Black to Yellow = 300 ohms
I hope you get this.


----------



## Stubbie

I'm going to post a diagram that I put together based on Robs (Micromind) analysis in the thread on the well pump motor. Graphic borrowed from manufacturers instructions (public no copyright). Text and configuration by yours truly....:thumbsup: I would wait for Rob to respond to this diagram for its accuracy.


----------



## plumcass

*reply*

I'll retry using your diagram.Thank you


----------



## micromind

The diagram above is exactly correct. 

Use the X1 scale on the ohm meter. 300 ohms on the X10 scale is actually about 3000 ohms. This could be an open (burned) wire underwater. It could also be an open (burned) wire inside the motor. Either way, you'll need to pull the pump. 

It's possible that the wire is bad between the control box and the well. Usually, the wires are spliced just under the cap on top of the well. if so, undo the splices and check ohms on the wires going down the well. If these read ok according to the diagram, then the pump is likely good. 

Next, tie all 3 wires together at the control box, and using the X1 scale, you should read less than 1 ohm across any 2 wires out at the well. 

Check ohms using the highest scale the meter has going from each wire to ground. It should read infinite on all wires. 

Eventually, you'll be able to isolate the problem. 

Rob


----------



## plumcass

*thank you both*

I will try testing the lines to the well and if needed the pump itself. I probably will get to it in the next couple of weeks. I'll let you know how I make out. Hopefully !


----------



## jrmdir

Hi - New User here! Sorry to hijack this excellent thread but it's right on topic for my question and starting a new one didn't seem necessary.

In the (really helpful) diagram it says that readings off of normal are suspect. Mine are very low:

Franklin 1HP 230V
Y-B 1.8 Ohm
Y-R 2.7 Ohm
(No ground faults)

As was noted (and marked on the control box) "normal" is around 4 and 12, respectively. But other posts I've seen just say they should be "a few ohms"

This pump/well has not been used for many years and I'm trying to see if it's worth reviving. (Prior owner said it was working last time he tried it) I have not reconnected the main power yet so my question is will it hurt anything to try applying power? I assume that if it's really shorted the CB will trip?

Thanks in advance

Ron


----------



## micromind

That resistance is pretty low for a 1 HP motor. Were the black/red/yellow wires disconnected when the readings were taken? 

You could try turning it on, and see what happens. If the motor is shorted, it'll trip the breaker. I would not test this way if the breakers are FPE or Zinsco. These have a tendency not to trip, even on a short circuit. 

Rob

P.S. According to the Franklin book, a 1 HP 3 wire submersible motor should read about 2.5 ohms across yellow to black, and around 10 ohms yellow to red.


----------



## jrmdir

Thanks Rob:

Yes, all the wires were disconnected before testing.

I'll check the breaker brand before lighting things up and will report back.

With so much downtime on the pump I'm afraid the seals have failed. Unless I get a miracle flow when powering up, plan B will be to pull the whole thing out - I guess.

Great site!

Ron


----------



## heckd

*Franklin pump control*

Looks like I got lucky with all the info you already have. One question: Can I have a 1-HP control On a 3/4-HP motor? and does the overload sensor that was included on he old controler with a cap that had 3 wires connected to it has to be added to new controler with a cap with 2 wires and a 3 terminal relay.

Thanks


----------



## cb1234

*Voltages across Pump Controller outlets*

Hey Micromind, I have a 2HP Franklin controller, what should be the voltages across the three wires YELLOW&RED , YELLOW&BLACK, BLACK&RED.


----------



## micromind

Yellow is the common wire to both start and run windings. It's tied to L2 of the incoming power. Black goes to L1, and red also goes to L1, but there's a capacitor in series with it. 

When the pump is running, there will be line voltage (presumably 240) across yellow and black. There will be a voltage of some sort across yellow and red, but it will vary with load on the motor. 

Current is what matters here. The current on yellow should be 10 to 13. On black it should be 9 to 12. Red should be 2 to 3. 

Rob


----------



## cb1234

Hi Rob,

Would you tell me how I make sure that my controller is up to standard and running. It looks clean and I bought it new and it still looks good a clean. My pump is lately getting lazy and not enough pressure, it is 200 feet below and I hate to pull it out before I make sure that the controller is good. I have a 2HP Grundfos 1PH 230 3 wire pump is about 12 years old but was not used too much. Only for summer watering. I got a standard capcitor start capacitor run Franklin controller.

I also got all resistances, they are low and add up as well.

Thanks for your help.

Cyrus


----------



## plumcass

*to everyone*

I will finally replace the pump. Anyone know of equipment that I can rent designed to lift the old pump out other than brute strenght. I am going to replace the #10-3 twisted wire with jacked wire that is specifically designed for submersible pumps, anybody know where to buy this wire, I have searched locally and on the internet, can order it in 500ft rolls only need 250'. 
Do any of the home improvement stores carry this type wire and what is the general trade name given to wire used in wet places?


----------



## cb1234

I used my truck with pulley system, you can also rent a small backhoe or excavator and pull it out. For wire look at this site. http://www.wwpp.com/products/wire/flatwire.htm


----------



## furyjf

*I have the same exact controller box and what happens to mine is that it shuts itself*



cb1234 said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Would you tell me how I make sure that my controller is up to standard and running. It looks clean and I bought it new and it still looks good a clean. My pump is lately getting lazy and not enough pressure, it is 200 feet below and I hate to pull it out before I make sure that the controller is good. I have a 2HP Grundfos 1PH 230 3 wire pump is about 12 years old but was not used too much. Only for summer watering. I got a standard capcitor start capacitor run Franklin controller.
> 
> I also got all resistances, they are low and add up as well.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Cyrus


I have the same exact controller box and what happens to mine is that it shuts itself off and I have to hit the reset button the it rattles the controller box the shuts it self down then the reset doesn’t work un till I let it rest for 1 hour then the same thing it is keeping about 40 lbs. of pressure some times it builds up to 60 lbs and shuts it self off normally. It is about 7 years old. that’s for any help.


----------



## plumcass

*done*

new pump readings on a bench before installing are Y to BLACK = 4 ohms
Y to R = 11 ohms
Old pump in the well Y - B == 500 ohms Y to R = 11 ohms.
Pulled the pump and could not believe the condition of 1 section of the twisted 10-3g wire, the black was worn away and a 1" gap between the copper wire, yellow was scraped to within 1/16" copper left and green was about 50% gone.
Micromind -your good your realy good you called it in a earlier reply. again thank you for your expertise. The well is up and running.


----------



## cb1234

My vital signs are good. All reading checked out. It still does not build up pressure but it runs at 30 PSI with 5 bubblers flowing fine but it used to build up pressure to 120 on all valves closed but now not over 60PSI. I think I either have a broken pipe of somehow does not suck enough.


----------



## micromind

If the pump current and voltage are OK, and there are no obvious leaks, the best thing to do is pull the pump. 

It's not easy to do without the proper equipment, but really not all that spendy to have a welldriller come out. 

Plus, just about any welldriller can tell if a pump is good or not. 

Rob


----------



## cb1234

ya Rob I am thinking about it. I have pulled it up once but that time I could hear the water running down the well. I got lucky that time because the break was on top. And I repaired it and placed strainers around the pipe to hold the pipe to the side of the well and that really made to too hard to pull it up this time but i guess i have no oyher choice.


----------



## deepstuff

I have a federal electric control box (capacitor start) on a submersible pump about 300-feet down. Its acting as if the well is very low but I find it hard to believe this time of year. If it has to pump the pressure tank up 2-3 times in a short period it will trip out on low pressure. Is it possible that the capacitor or relay in the control box ois getting weak and cannot handle a number of starts in such a short period? 

Thanks!


----------



## micromind

The only way to know for sure if the motor is operating properly is to take current readings on all 3 lines going to the well. It helps a lot to know the HP and type of controller (capacitor start, capacitor start-capacitor run, etc).

If the water level in the well is too low, you'll have air in the water lines. 

Usually, if there's a problem with the start capacitor, the motor won't start at all, and won't pump any water. The overloads will trip within 30 seconds. 

If the start relay fails to disengage, the motor will run at reduced speed and pump at reduced flow, and the overloads will trip in less than a minute. 

If the run capacitor is bad (if it has one), it'll behave a lot like a bad start relay. 

All of these problems will show up as excessive current. 

A lot of reduced capacity problems I've seen are caused by mineral build-up on the impellers or the intake screen, or a leak. 

If the system will hold pressure when the pump is off, and the current readings are normal when it's running, then the pump itself is suspect. 

Rob


----------



## deepstuff

I removed the cap from the well and listened to the pump. Most of the time (not all the time) when running I can hear a mecahnical chatter almost like a valve clattering. I can also hear faint gurgleing after pump cuts out. We have company now but I will run it later while listening until I recreate our problem of lost pressure.


----------



## deepstuff

With pump running I'm reading 240V on both start and run circuits. Shouldn't the start circuit drop out? Or is the capacitor giving me the voltage? 

Starter is only capactor to start.


----------



## micromind

Voltage will backfeed through the start winding in the motor, but not current. On most starters you can hear a little click when the start relay drops out. This usually occurs within a second or so. 

Without measuring current, there's no way to know for sure if the start winding has been de-energized.

Rob


----------



## deepstuff

I was just told by the local pump shop that if, with the well cap removed, I can hear the pump running that the well is low on water. 


Could this be caused by construction in the area?


----------



## micromind

Usually you can't hear the pump running in the well. If it's low on water, it'll make some noise, but you'll also have air in the water. 

As a pump ages, the impellers get out of balance. This can be due to wear, or mineral build-up. An unbalanced pump will make noise even if there's plenty of water. Usually you can feel the vibration on the discharge pipe. 

New wells certainly can lower the water table, causing older wells to go dry. It depends on the condition of the strata that the water is located in. Around here, the county drilled several wells, big pumps, and a bunch of existing wells went dry. The county paid for these wells to be deepened. At least that was the court order!

Rob


----------



## cjhi712

*well pump controlers*

Hello I have a 1/2 hp well pump and I have a pentek controller that says on the capacitor smc-ir0721-01 3/4 hp .56kw 230v6.9amp My question is will this controller run the 1/2 hp pump with out burning out anything as it shows on the schematic inside the box 1/2 - 1 hp? can any one help please


----------



## plumbdoc

*rob i hate to say it but i think my submersible may be shot.*



micromind said:


> The only way to know for sure if the motor is operating properly is to take current readings on all 3 lines going to the well. It helps a lot to know the HP and type of controller (capacitor start, capacitor start-capacitor run, etc).
> 
> If the water level in the well is too low, you'll have air in the water lines.
> 
> Usually, if there's a problem with the start capacitor, the motor won't start at all, and won't pump any water. The overloads will trip within 30 seconds.
> 
> If the start relay fails to disengage, the motor will run at reduced speed and pump at reduced flow, and the overloads will trip in less than a minute.
> 
> If the run capacitor is bad (if it has one), it'll behave a lot like a bad start relay.
> 
> All of these problems will show up as excessive current.
> 
> A lot of reduced capacity problems I've seen are caused by mineral build-up on the impellers or the intake screen, or a leak.
> 
> If the system will hold pressure when the pump is off, and the current readings are normal when it's running, then the pump itself is suspect.
> 
> Rob


Franklin 3 hp single phase. Last night went to take a shower and nothing water drained tank and pump had tripped the main overload. After further investigating and replacing the relay i have found that i am getting 70 amps on the red to motor. Checked the black and yellow and they both seem to be abnormally high also. After about 3-5 sec. the main trips. I am curious if the start cap. could be causing this. I dont get any water pumping just here the contactors connect and what sounds like loud humming from the control box before main trips again.  Also replaced pressure switch. 280ft. well


----------



## micromind

The current on a 3 HP single phase pump motor should be around 16 on yellow, 12 on black, and 6 on red. 

If the start relay failed to open, the currents would be very high on all 3 wires, and the motor will not come up to full speed. Red is the start winding, it should have a lot of current for a second or so at startup, then go down to about 6 or so. 

There are 3 terminals on the start relay. One of them goes to the start capacitor. This wire will have current in it only during starting. If there's current in this wire after the motor has ran for more than a second or so, the relay is bad. 

Check the current on the ground that goes to the well, if there is one. It should be very close to zero.

Rob


----------



## genericuser

*1 1/2 HP Franklin Control Box*

This thread is amazing... I learned so much from it. I am hoping that the experts here will be able to help me with my well pump situation.

I have a franklin control box (2823008110) attached to a 1 1/2 HP well pump. The pump sits 80 feet down and runs my sprinklers. It was working fine up until 3 weeks ago. Now it is not pumping water out of the ground. The pump is 3 years old.

Here are the things I have tried and the results. This pump is a 3 wire seutp. It is a capacitor start (105-126 MFD, 220v), capacitor run setup (10 MFD, 370V). This control box has 2 Caps and an overload switch. The L1/L2 is controlled by a pressure switch. The relay has three wires connected to it (red, yellow and orange going to the start cap).

At this time I have bypassed the pressure switch so it is always closed. Applying power at the breaker box gives 10.6 amps on one leg and 10.4 amps on the other. I have verified that L1 and L2 have voltage on them. When turning on the pump, the overload switch does not pop, and the amperage on the lines to the pump are listed below.

The red/yellow/black to ground ohm measurements are infinity. Resistances are: R-Y 9.2 ohms, Y-B 2.4 ohms, B-R 11.2 ohms. During steady state the amperage draw is Y-11.4a, B-10.7a, R-0.90a

Everything I have done seems to indicate the pump is good. However, there is no water. I even removed the well head and when my wife turns on the power, I can hear the pump humm and I hear the beginnings of the water flowing, but only for a fraction of a second.

I have measured the amperage on the wire from the relay to the start capacitor, and it spikes up to a around 2A, then it drops to 0.1ish amps.

There are only a few things that I have that are weird.

1) I have not measured the capacitance of the caps. I dont have a cap meter. Any ideas on where I can take them for a free test?

2) When turning on the power and having an amp meter on the red line to the pump, it only spikes up to 2amps for a fraction of a second before settling down to its 0.90 amps. My DVM seems to display 3 times a second, and if I am lucky I will see the very first reading at 2A, then it goes down and by the fourth reading it is 0.90A.

3) in the "checking procedure" printed inside the control box, for the relay coil, it says to disconnect the lead for the yellow wire and then run measure the ohms between the red lead and the yellow lead. This measurement is supposed to be 4500-7000 ohms. in my box the measurement from red to yellow on the relay is a short.

It has been a long time since my electronic courses, but I believe the "start" circuit is simply a decay timer (I do not believe the box is smart enough to "sense" when the RPM of the motor is 50-80%). There is a certain amount of time that current will flow through the capacitor before it becomes an "open" in the circuit which will turn the start winding off. Is that a correct statement?

My guess right now is that the "start" winding is not energizing long enough to get things going. Is that a possibility?

Another guess is that the rotor is jammed in the pump. What are the signs of that?

Thanks for any insight you have.

Eric


----------



## micromind

My guess is that the motor is OK. 

The Franklin book lists winding resistance as 1.7-2.2 for the main winding (Y-B), and 8.0-9.7 for the start (Y-R). Your readings are OK. Well temperature and length of wire from the control box to the motor will have an effect on this.

The current is listed as Y=10.0-11.5, B=9.9-11.0, and R=1.1-1.3 Again, your readings are OK. 

If the rotor were locked up, the current would be somewhere around 40-50. 

If your water has a lot of minerals in it, it's possible that the intake screen is clogged, or more likely the slots in the well casing have become clogged. This would explain the very short pumping at first. 

It's also possible that the water table has lowered to just above the pump intake screen, and it pumps a bit at first, then sucks air, and cavitates. It won't pump water again until it's turned off and the air gets out of the impellers.

If there's sand in the water, the impellers could be worn down too.

Rob


----------



## genericuser

And you are correct. The motor was just fine. I pulled the pump (it is 80' down) and just as I got the motor to the top of the well, the motor dropped off the end of the pipe and started going back down.

My father-in-law grabbed the electrical wire and I grabbed the attached nylon rope and we were able to get it out safely. 

The pipe company said the threads on the schedule80 were warped by heat. Apparently the motor had worked itself loose and so when it was turned on it just squirted water out the side.

The check valve on the motor/pump no longer worked, so I installed a new one. I dropped the pump back into the well and now I have the sprinklers running again.

I had replaced the pressure switch at the pressure bladder and I will monitor it more closely.

I sincerely appreciate the time you took to read this post.

Everything posted above in regards to to resistances is correct (This is for people searching this topic in the future).

Thanks,
Eric


----------



## micromind

It's always good to know that something worked out. 

Thanks for posting back with the results.

Rob


----------



## whatmeworry

Thanks micromind!!!
I registered to thank you for the info on cking the pump resistance. Been without water for 24hrs. I did a search and this thread came up. Replaced 7yo box. Total w/ pressure gauge- $46.00. Still need to purchase an amp meter to ck pump current draw.
200ft 1/2hp pump 3 wire readings disconnected at box were:
R-Y 11 ohms, Y-B 8 ohms, B-R 19 ohms
Hope to pay forward to this forum someday.


----------



## DanFu

Hey guys! I am a sprinkler repair guy in the Dallas area. I have a customer that has a submersible pump in the lake by his house. I replaced it several years ago and also replaced the control box (Franklin 2801084915). 
The City drained the lake for dam repairs and that took a couple of years. Now the pump doesn't work. I don't know anything about ohms and the like so reading through this thread is all Greek to me. So, I got a gadget that lights up and beeps when you touch it to a wire with current running through it. I am not getting any signal at all to the wire that goes to the pump. On the Control Box I get a signal for current on L1 and L2 but nothing on R Y or B. Does the Pump Relay send power to the Control Box? I'm thinking it either has to be the Pump Relay or the Control Box. (Duh) But I am really not sure how the process works for getting power to the pump. I'm thinking that it is the Pump Relay. Any thoughts?


----------



## rwh

*Need help ID'ing Franklin Cntrl with fried transistors*

Ok I'll start over. I was away from the editor too long I guess.

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread. Although this is about a Franklin controller.

I have a burned out controller. The two switching transistors are fried. I'm having trouble id'ing the controller board. I can make out the last 4 numbers, ....4910, and there is possibly a 78 for the first two numbers of the model number. In the Date area there is a C93. So this box is probably 15-20 years old. 

The inside, see pic, contains a cap with 105-126 MFD for 230VAC. It's 2"x4". There is a circuit board with two Transistors that are burned out. A micro-relay that has 1 HP 230V capacity and a number on it 152138904. Does this mean it's controlling a 1 HP motor?










It controls a 3 wire pump motor with Red, Yellow, B wires. See pic. The inside looks just like the diagram on this thread. 










I haven't looked at the pressure switch yet or ohmed the motor leads. I need to bring back my meter from home. I live in this cabin during the week for the new job I have. Not sure of the history on the pump either.

I don't what blew the controller. There was no lightning anywhere near between the time I used it last and my attempt to run some water for cooking. Possibly a bug crawled in and shorted something. It's exposed to the elements and Florida has some serious bugs.  

So what controller should I get to replace this one. Or can I actually get the little controller board with the micro-relay and transistors? The board is approximately 1"x2". I can clean up the box.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Wade in NW Florida, currently near Tallahassee.


----------



## genericuser

DanFu said:


> Hey guys! I am a sprinkler repair guy in the Dallas area. I have a customer that has a submersible pump in the lake by his house. I replaced it several years ago and also replaced the control box (Franklin 2801084915).
> The City drained the lake for dam repairs and that took a couple of years. Now the pump doesn't work. I don't know anything about ohms and the like so reading through this thread is all Greek to me. So, I got a gadget that lights up and beeps when you touch it to a wire with current running through it. I am not getting any signal at all to the wire that goes to the pump. On the Control Box I get a signal for current on L1 and L2 but nothing on R Y or B. Does the Pump Relay send power to the Control Box? I'm thinking it either has to be the Pump Relay or the Control Box. (Duh) But I am really not sure how the process works for getting power to the pump. I'm thinking that it is the Pump Relay. Any thoughts?


Dan - I am confused as to what this "gadget" is. Anything that you touch to make a measurement is either measuring voltage or resistance. In order to measure current, you need a meter that you can clamp around the wire that you are measuring.

What is this "Pump relay" that you talk about? Is it a pressure switch near a pressure vessel? If so, that is what controls the L1/L2 voltage and current.

How many wires leave the control box heading to the pump motor (I am assuming 4- R, Y, B, G) since you are using a control box.

So you know that you are getting L1/L2 voltage (which implies the pressure switch is operating correctly). If you measure from L1 to L2 are you getting 230 volts?

Is there an overload switch on that control box? If you reset the switch and apply power does it pop after 3 seconds or so?

When you apply power to the control box, What are the current readings on the red and yellow wires?


----------



## genericuser

Wade-

My guess is that this control box was set up to use a 1HP pump motor.

If it was me, I would test the windings on the motor from the control box to see if the motor is still showing good. Test RYB to green to be sure there is no short.

Using you meter, what is voltage difference between L1 and L2? Knowing that shows you the table entires to use for measuring the winding resistances. 

If the resistances show that the motor seems fine, I would simply buy a new franklin control box that can control a 1HP motor. If the resistances indicate that the motor is bad, I would buy a whole new setup.

I cant tell for sure from your second picture. Are there wires attached to L1 and B?


----------



## rwh

Yes, wires are both hooked up. The L1 is just visible, it's either black or dark blue and the B connection is black if I remember correctly. I shot them with my old iPhone 3G, so the pizel count is not high and the close focus isn't as good as the later phones. I'll ohm out the wires when I go back to the cabin tonight. I have my ohm meter with me on this trip.

I'm a little scared that the pump motor or wiring is faulty due to the catastrophic burnout of the switching transistors. Either one will involve a lot more effort than replacing the controller.

Thanks for your help. I'll post in the morning my readings.

Wade


----------



## rwh

*Ohmed out motor leads to well pump*

genericuser:
Yesterday afternoon I ohmed out the leads to the well pump. I did it twice. Once with an analog meter and once with a digital meter. Both gave the same results.....

Black to Yellow 3-4.5 ohms
Black to Red 14-14.5 ohms
Yellow to Red 14-14.5 ohms

Which doesn't look good does it? Does this mean at least one leg of the pump is shorted? That would cause the switching transistors to blow I suppose.

Again the well is 170' deep. And I'm guessing the pump is down 80 to 100 feet?

What do you think, pull the pump?

There was no green wire which I suppose is the ground or chassis wire.

Thanks, Wade


----------



## micromind

rwh said:


> genericuser:
> Yesterday afternoon I ohmed out the leads to the well pump. I did it twice. Once with an analog meter and once with a digital meter. Both gave the same results.....
> 
> Black to Yellow 3-4.5 ohms
> Black to Red 14-14.5 ohms
> Yellow to Red 14-14.5 ohms
> 
> Which doesn't look good does it? Does this mean at least one leg of the pump is shorted? That would cause the switching transistors to blow I suppose.
> 
> Again the well is 170' deep. And I'm guessing the pump is down 80 to 100 feet?
> 
> What do you think, pull the pump?
> 
> There was no green wire which I suppose is the ground or chassis wire.
> 
> Thanks, Wade


Those resistance readings are actually pretty close for a 1HP motor, especially with a couple of hundred feet of cable from the controller to the well. If the resistance from any wire to ground is infinite, I'd say the motor is ok. 

I've seen a few of those electronic controls fail, if it were me, I'd get a mechanical controller for a 1HP 3 wire pump motor. It hooks up the same way as the one you've got. Two wires in and 3 out, plus the ground. 

Rob


----------



## rwh

Thanks micromind. I'll give it a shot. I have a mechanical controller on my well at the farm above Bonifay, FL. They are a little more rebust controller I think. 

I was surprised the switching transistors weren't heatsinked on the burned out controller. As heat is the enemy of solid state electronics, anything you can do to cool them makes them last longer.

Thanks everyone :thumbup:for all your help on here. I'll post and let you know how it comes out.

Thanks, wade


----------



## genericuser

Wade-

Did you verify RYB to ground? that was the last step micromind mentioned to be sure the motor was good.

I am glad you do not have to pull your pump out.

Last thing... What is a mechanical controller?


----------



## micromind

A mechanical controller uses mechanical relays, as opposed to an electronic one which uses electronic switches. 

Electronic motor control certainly has its place, I deal with it on an almost daily basis, but for a simple well pump, I'd go with mechanical. 

Rob


----------



## rwh

I did not see a ground to test to, ie a green wire. I suppose I should have tried the different legs to the box as that should be chasis ground. I'll check again to see if there is a chasis ground from among the pump wires. I see a chassis ground on the power side, but with the cover off of the box to expose the wires the pump motor is disconnected from the power side. But I'll look again. 

It'll have to be Sunday night though as I head out from work today to go home and will not make it back to the cabin till Sunday afternoon. I'll post Monday when I have access to the internet.

Looking forward to a decent shower at home.

Thanks, Wade


----------



## rwh

Final result of the Franklin Controller burn out.

I purchased a new all 'mechanical' dual capacitor controller for $125 from a well pump outfit that is closing down in Chipley, FL. Before I hooked it up I measured out the voltage from the house through the pressure switch and had 100 volts on both sides to ground. Thought it should be 115 but 100 probably works.

Anyway hooked everything up and I have water again. It should work well past the pump's life. And with the extra startup cap the motor should have a little more life.

Sure is nice to take a shower again and not at the office. And having a flush toilet is good, no midnight trips out to the woods to pee.

Thanks for all the help I have received on here. Hope this thread helps others as well.

Wet Wade in North Florida


----------



## piped_in

*Similar pump problem - relay chattering*

I have a 1/2HP submersible in a 25' dug well with Franklin 230V 1/2HP motor control box. System is about 22 years old as far as I know, I've only been there 12 years.

The other night I woke up to a periodic rattling sound. Eventually tracked it down to the pump motor controller. The pressure guage was down to 20psi (below normal turn on, supposed to be 30/50) but the pressure switch was making good solid contact and contacts still look clean, I replaced this about 7 years ago after the previous one failed stuck in the on position. I turned off the breaker so I could sleep.

When I checked it next morning it did the same - I pulled the cover off the controller and measured the relay coil and thermal protection by the instructions in the box, both measured fine (5.2kohm and 0.2ohm). I then measured the wires to the pump - no ground fault (9.2Mohms) but not sure about the other readings:
Y-B (main) 6ohm - seems ok
Y-R (start) 8Kohm climbing to 14kohm on DMM - seems a bit odd
B-R 30kohm

Then I plugged the whole thing back together, turned on the breaker and moved the manual lever on the pressure switch through start and back to on and the pump clicked on normally and pressure ran up to 50psi over about 30s or so (normal, tank is a bit undersized.) Then I ran some water and pump kicked in about 25psi and ran up to 50psi again. I've probably run another three or four cycles since - so far no rattle.

Turn on is a bit low - I'll check the pressure switch and bladder tank charge tonight but I don't think that explains the relay chatter in the controller at all.

I seem to have water for now but at this point I don't trust it won't happen again (and probably when I'm in the shower covered in soap.) I could replace the controller for $100 but I'd like to know that I'm replacing the right part.

Any thoughts on what is wrong or what else I should check? Unfortunately I don't have a clamp ammeter.

Thanks for your help,
Peter


----------



## joed

HOw much water had you been using the day the problem existed? could the well have been low on water?


----------



## piped_in

Thanks joed,

Not a huge amount of water - washed the car in the afternoon and at midnight the softener ran - must have finished about the time the relay started chattering because nothing else would have taken water. I'll take a peek tonight but I would be very surprised to have low water - we had good winter run-off and we're getting ridiculous amounts of rain so far.

When I bought the place (end of a dry fall) the measured flow was just over 1GPM with still 8-12' of water in 3' dia. tile after pumping out a couple hundred gallons - not high flow but plenty of reserve.

It only ran dry once about 10 years ago and that was when the other half did three loads of laundry the morning right after the water softener spent the night stuck in flush cycle. No relay chatter then, just no water from the taps, took a couple of hours for it to recharge, no problem since.

I am most concerned about the resistance of the start coil - would have thought it should be much lower. I guess I should check the pressure in the bladder too but it took the normal time to pump from 30-50psi so I suspect it is okay.

Thanks,
Peter


----------



## Missouri Bound

I do have a comment an question about the Franklin control boxes. I deal with mostly the 5, 7.5 and 10 hp boxes and everyone has a wiring diagram and troubleshooting legend on the inside cover of the box. Don't the smaller hp boxes have this as well? I know that Franklin has a great deal of information online, but when you are in a pit or well house it's unlikely you will have a laptop with you.


----------



## mccauley444

micromind said:


> Those resistance readings are actually pretty close for a 1HP motor, especially with a couple of hundred feet of cable from the controller to the well. If the resistance from any wire to ground is infinite, I'd say the motor is ok.
> 
> I've seen a few of those electronic controls fail, if it were me, I'd get a mechanical controller for a 1HP 3 wire pump motor. It hooks up the same way as the one you've got. Two wires in and 3 out, plus the ground.
> 
> Rob




MM, I have a Franklin controller for a 2hp submersible and the pump stopped working. I've pulled the pump (sits in a water box off of a ditch ) Using the directions I have seen here, I have made the following measurements off of the collections of four wires coming out of the pump:

RB = 8.5 ohms
RY = 6.5 ohms
RG 1 mega ohm
BY = 2.1
GY = 500k ohm
GB = 260k ohm

G = the yellow/green wire that I assume is ground.

The pump is a Franklin 2243019204 and the controller is 282 3018 110.

There is voltage all the way through the controller box to the pump leads coming out of the pump.

I think the pump is shot based on what I see here.


----------



## micromind

mccauley444 said:


> MM, I have a Franklin controller for a 2hp submersible and the pump stopped working. I've pulled the pump (sits in a water box off of a ditch ) Using the directions I have seen here, I have made the following measurements off of the collections of four wires coming out of the pump:
> 
> RB = 8.5 ohms
> RY = 6.5 ohms
> RG 1 mega ohm
> BY = 2.1
> GY = 500k ohm
> GB = 260k ohm
> 
> G = the yellow/green wire that I assume is ground.
> 
> The pump is a Franklin 2243019204 and the controller is 282 3018 110.
> 
> There is voltage all the way through the controller box to the pump leads coming out of the pump.
> 
> I think the pump is shot based on what I see here.


The Franklin book lists resistances for the 2 HP 224310 motor as;

Y-B = 1.8 to 2.3 

Y-R should be 5.8 to 7.2

R-B will be the sum of the other two.

Your resistances are normal, but there should be infinite resistance from green to any other wire. 

Given the low resistances to green, I'd say the motor is in the process of burning up. 

The current should be; 

Y - not more than 13.2

B - not more than 11.9

R - not more than 2.6

If red is near zero current, check for an open run capacitor. If red is way high, check for shorted run capacitor or the start relay not opening its contact.


----------



## yheitman

*Micromind I hope you're still around*

Hi folks! Been a long time since anyone posted to this thread so I hope someone who knows about wells can help me.

We had a huge thunderstorm here in Washington State on Thursday night. Lightning struck very close to the house (it sounded like a gun going off next to my ear) and we lost the telephone and no water. Didn't realize we had no water until Friday morning and spent all day trying to troubleshoot it myself. There was a burned out glass fuse with scorch marks on it so I replaced it. Got water but I have another huge project going so as soon as I heard the well pump running I thought I had solved the problem. Came back in pretty late in the evening and again I didn't have any water. Great! Weekend without any water or phone and today is Sunday.

It seems that when I turn on the well system, the well pump runs for about 30 seconds and then shuts off so with a couple of forced runs I was able to fill the tank enough to take short showers. I took the (Franklin) control box off yesterday and into the house and I noticed that the capacitor (mine has two for 1 1/2 hp, 20 gpm pump) was just slightly melted looking or corroded in one area. With the forced runs last night to fill the water tank I noticed that the capacitor is now really leaking and gets very hot. Will the winding readings be off because I need to replace the capacitor? Should I just go ahead and replace the whole control box or should I take the wellhead off first and take reading on the lines there.

When you say test the red/yellow/black to ground, what do you mean? Do you mean, turn the power off, bundle the three wires together, put red wand from ohm meter to the bundled r/y/b and the black wand to ground?

My Franklin has more than three wires. I know it has an orange and a blue as well so what other tests do I need to perform? 

Any help anyone could give me would be appreciated.


----------



## micromind

The capacitor is obviously bad and needs to be replaced. If there's a Grainger wholesaler nearby, they usually have them in stock, if not, a motor shop will be able to get one. 

Capacitors have two ratings, voltage and capacitance (Ufd or mfd or mf). Stick with the same Ufd (it's usually a range, like 200 - 240) and the voltage of the new one needs to be the same or higher. 

To test the motor, first shut off the power going to the control box. Next, disconnect all 3 wires boing from the box to the well. Measure resistance (ohms) by placing one probe (it doesn't matter if it's red or black) on one of the wires and the other probe on another wire. 

Since there are 3 wires, there are 3 combinations of two wires. Write down the readings. 

Also, test from any of the wires to ground. The best spot for ground is the green screw in the control box, but any bare metal part of the box or an electrical panel will work. This reading needs to be infinite (O/L on a digital meter). 

The resistance you get with the wires will vary depending on the motor HP and the distance from the control box to the bottom of the well. The capacitors won't effect the resistance readings, because they are not in the circuit when you're testing. 

According to my Franklin book, the resistance for a 1 - 1/2 HP 230 volt motor should be around 2 Ohms from yellow to black, and around 9 Ohms from yellow to red. Black to red will be close to the sum of the other two. 

There are two components that normally fail in a control box; the capacitor(s) and/or the start relay. This relay has 3 terminals, one of them has a black wire, another has red, and the other has orange. 

If this relay is stuck in the start position, it'll burn up the start capacitor. This capacitor has the orange wire on one of its terminals. It will also trip the overload fairly quickly. The only way to test the relay is by measuring current on the orange wire when the pump is running. It should have current for a second or so when it first starts, then zero when it's running. 

There's a good chance that the lightning went from the electrical service to the house through the wiring to the well. A well is an excellent ground, and that is what lightning is looking for. When it did, it could easily have 'welded' the contacts of the start relay, so it is always in the start position. 

Rob


----------



## yheitman

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GETTING BACK TO ME SO SOON! 

Just a little more information. The well head is approximately 250 feet from the house and the pump is down at 165 feet. How will that affect the readings?

If I remember correctly from yesterday, one of the readings (I think relay coil) was supposed to be in the thousands (4,000+) and I got nothing and that's when I gave up. I'll do it again today just in case I was doing it wrong. I also didn't know what a reading of 1 means but if I Googled it correctly it means Infinity, correct?

I'll post those reading a little later tonight as I'm still working on a huge project (while I've got daylight) so my living room doesn't fall off a bunch of jack posts. Yikes!


----------



## micromind

The distance from the control box to the well will add about 0.5 Ohms to the readings.

Some meters will read 1 for infinity. 

The yellow and red wires on the relay should have resistance between them, but that doesn't mean the relay is good. If the contacts are welded together, the coil will not be able to disengage the start winding.


----------



## yheitman

Hi Micromind. Here are my readings using a digital ohm meter set to the lowest setting of 200:

Red to Black: 11.2
Red to Yellow: 9.3
Yellow to Black: 3.1

Ground (green) to each of the colored wires: All the readings were 1

Can you tell me if my pump motor is bad from these readings?


----------



## micromind

The motor is almost certainly ok. 

More than likely, the start relay is bad (contacts do not open), and the start capacitor is obviously bad. The run capacitor is probably ok.


----------



## yheitman

Whew, may have dodged a bullet on that one.

Sounds like you're leaning toward changing out just the switch and start capacitor. I prefer that option and will call Grainger in the morning to see if I can acquire both parts. 

I'll keep you posted and let you know how it worked out. Thank you for your knowledge and excellent advice.


----------



## micromind

If possible, get the info from the bad capacitor, there are a bunch of different ones. 

Also, if the relay has a part number on it, it'll help to get the right one. 
The control box number is very likely 282 300 8110, but it could be different. 

The motor number is likely 224300, but could be different. This one is not very important though.

On some control boxes, the capacitor is different with different date codes, it'd be good to have this info when you call.


----------



## yheitman

I really appreciate your thoroughness. 

You are right on on the control box model and the motor number. I'm finding numbers on the relay but I'm having to look through a 10X jeweler's loupe to see them. I've got my headlamp on right now looking at them. 

Since it is about a 40 mile drive to Grainger, I'll call them first. Hope they have the parts in stock if not, we're pretty desperate for water and I'll probably shell out for a new control box.

I'll post early evening tomorrow and let you know how it goes.


----------



## yheitman

In the Franklin Electric Aim website I found the part number for both the capacitor and the relay. The numbers on my parts are the same as on the Franklin-Electric website but I cannot find the relay anywhere. It is part #155 031 102 and I've gone through the Grainger catalog, ebay, Pump warehouse, and done every kind of Google search for the part number and I can't find it. I was somewhere on page 51 of the AIM manual (or thereabouts) and saw something that said for 3HP motors or smaller to replace part #155 031 102 with #155 031 103. Still can't find the 103 either. 

Someone on a different blog posted that the relays cost $45 when he used to be able to find them because his have been taken out by lightning. The same is probably true in this case but for $45 for the relay and $20-$30 for the capacitor I might as well buy a new control box for $100-$125. So if Grainger has my control box I think that's what I'm going end up doing.


----------



## micromind

Even though it costs a bit more, I'd very likely opt for a whole new box too. That way you have all new parts, plus a few spare ones from the old box.

Best of luck,
Rob


----------



## yheitman

Spent two hours on the phone this morning going round and round with Grainger and they ended up wanting to sell me a control box for $1160, then went progressively down from there to a $300 box. I finally signed off with them.

Finally called a little in south Tacoma and found my control box for $135. This new model has the dual overload buttons. Came home, attached it and viola! WATER!!!

My neighbor, who lives 800 feet away from me was gone during the lightning storm and came home and found his control box lid blown off, the capacitor blown up, the wooden wall around the control box scorched all around, lightbulbs blown out in out in his studio and his house. He found a huge fir tree in his backyard that was lifted out of the ground, the well wiring raised the ground all the way from the house to the well and everything was fried. I couldn't believe my eyes! He's going to have to replace every component of his well (if the pump hasn't fried or fallen off down there).

I can't thank you enough for your help. You're a genius and I am so blown away by your generosity in helping others. If I'm ever in the Reno area, I'll try to get in touch with you via this website and take you and your family out to dinner at the place of your choosing. You saved me so much time, headache, and money. Thanks again.


----------



## joed

Sounds like your neighbour took the direct hit.


----------



## micromind

yheitman said:


> Spent two hours on the phone this morning going round and round with Grainger and they ended up wanting to sell me a control box for $1160, then went progressively down from there to a $300 box. I finally signed off with them.
> 
> Finally called a little in south Tacoma and found my control box for $135. This new model has the dual overload buttons. Came home, attached it and viola! WATER!!!
> 
> My neighbor, who lives 800 feet away from me was gone during the lightning storm and came home and found his control box lid blown off, the capacitor blown up, the wooden wall around the control box scorched all around, lightbulbs blown out in out in his studio and his house. He found a huge fir tree in his backyard that was lifted out of the ground, the well wiring raised the ground all the way from the house to the well and everything was fried. I couldn't believe my eyes! He's going to have to replace every component of his well (if the pump hasn't fried or fallen off down there).
> 
> I can't thank you enough for your help. You're a genius and I am so blown away by your generosity in helping others. If I'm ever in the Reno area, I'll try to get in touch with you via this website and take you and your family out to dinner at the place of your choosing. You saved me so much time, headache, and money. Thanks again.


It's really nice to hear that your well is now working!

It's the best feeling ever to hear of a success........


----------



## william duffer

I am showing 200ohms across Y-B, Y-R, and R-B. Obviously not good. How do you take the top off the pump to test the wires to the pump. Or should I just call a well guy.


----------



## william duffer

I just went ahead and called the Well Dude. Thanks.


----------



## ralph19

Well is 1 hp It runs then blows the capacitor 1/2 day it works replaced cap 2x now its tripping the breaker b-yel 4.5 ohms, blk-red 8ohms ,yel-red 7.4-7.5 readings are from the terminals on the franklin well box its just a terminal strip. There is no ground wire just 3 wires. Klixon overload 1/2hp rating but franklin box says 1hp how to test this it has 3 wires on it. Preasure switch has 144v on both leggs and L1 and L2 read 244v on franklin well box.


----------



## Tribune

Hello, new poster.
I've no idea what is down my well motor wise but there is a Franklin 2801054915 controller up top. Lost our water pressure, no quantity issues. Well is 90 feet and when I tested the resistance I'm getting Y-B 5.4 ohms, Y-R 17.3 ohms and R-B 22 ohms. From what I read in here that should be okay. What doesn't seem right is the current readings. I'm showing anywhere from .15 to 1.3 on Red, and 20 on both Black and Yellow. I'm thinking maybe a locked rotor or something. No tripped breakers, pressure dropped below cutoff and thats where I found it. Any ideas or thoughts?
Cheers


----------



## micromind

The motor is most likely 1/2 HP and I'd bet it runs on 240 volts. 

Since there's very little current on red, the problem is most likely either a bad start capacitor or a bad start relay. The motor is probably ok. 

If the relay is blue, it's solid-state and there's no way to test it except under load with a known good motor (which you probably have) and a known good capacitor (which we don't know yet). 

The capacitor can be tested using a meter that has a capacitor test function. Most basic meters cannot test capacitors this size though some can. The capacitor will be rated in mfd and voltage. mfd is what we're testing for. 

While a meter that can actually test the capacitor is by far the best, a sort of basic test can be done using any meter set to read resistance. First, short the terminals with a screwdriver. You might get a nice 'SNAP' as it is discharged, maybe not. 

Next, disconnect one or both leads. Now, with the meter set to fairly high resistance (200K or thereabouts) put the probes on the capacitor terminals. The reading should be low at first, then rise as the capacitor is charged. If it stays low or doesn't rise, the capacitor is very likely bad. 

The replacement needs to have a mfd rating within 10% of the original, and the voltage rating needs to be the same or higher but not lower. 

I'm heading to work now, I'll be back around 4:30PM and check up on this thread. 

Rob

P.S. An AC capacitor like this one is not polarity sensitive; it doesn't matter which wire goes to which terminal.


----------



## Tribune

Many thanks for the quick reply Rob. You were bang on about the cap. My digital meter was used first to test this and while it would swing between 0 ohms and infinity, I thought that might be okay. Checking around our small island here, one of the plumbers had a few spare controllers and he used his analog to test the caps in those. Did just what you mentioned. When he tested mine, it just pegged and wouldn't move. I plugged one of his old ones in and tada, we got water. I'll replace the cap in mine and give back the loaner. So another happy ending. Reading the complete post here you have had a lot of happy endings. Well deserved!!

Cheers,
Ron


----------



## micromind

Thanks, Ron!!

Few things are better than a success story. It makes the time that myself along with every other pro spends here worthwhile.


----------



## Nikkoli

Hello all. I have a problem with my well. Franklin Electric three wire 3/4 hp 240v. Very deep well, most likely 550+ ft. Fuses keep popping, a humming comes from the control box, new and old. The ohms are R-B=21.8, R-Y=19.9, and Y-B=4.1. Three to five seconds of buzz and pop goes the fuse. 20A Time Delay fuses. No ground wire but I did check the casing as a ground and all ohms came out infinate on the highest setting. Im at a loss here. Spent all day testing and then parts running because my symptoms matched somebody elses problem but the the cure did not. I really do not want to pull the pump because I would have to tear down the well house. Even pulling the well cap will be a chore due to very, very limited space inside the well house.


----------



## micromind

The resistance readings are mostly ok, a bit high R-Y but not enough to worry about. 

My main suspect here is either the start capacitor or the start relay. Normally, a second or two after power is applied, the relay will disengage the start winding R-Y and keep the run winding Y-B energized.

If the start winding doesn't disengage, the motor will come up to about 80% speed and draw a LOT of current (the two windings are fighting with each other). Easily enough to trip a breaker. The buzzing you hear is the huge current going through the control box and likely the relay trying to disengage but the contacts are stuck together. 

Since you get water hammer, I suspect the relay more than the capacitor. If the capacitor is bad, the pump won't run at all. 

I doubt if you'll need to pull the pump, it's very likely ok. If you do need to pull it, rather than tear down the well house, cut a 2' X 2' skylight in the roof directly above the well. It doesn't need to be exactly centered, you'll need about 6" of clearance from the center of the well. Use screws to fasten the skylight so it can be easily removed and replaced.


----------



## Nikkoli

Does the same thing with a new control box. Will it need to be the identical model in replacement? Sent little brother with all info to the electric supply store and the one he came back with did not match in brand but matched in power ratings and 3/4 hp motor controls.


----------



## micromind

The only things in a control box that are different for different motors is the start capacitor and the start relay. If those are the same (or close), then it'll work.

The next thing I'd look at is the power supply to the control box. If there's a loose connection (including where the breaker stabs onto the bus in the panel) it'll cause this type of trouble, especially on starting when the current is higher. 

Also, check the splice at the top of the wellhead if there is one.


----------



## Nikkoli

Now that you mention it there was some corrosion in the old fuse box on the blade connector. I also set up a small electric heater in the well house to keep it from freezing this winter. The added draw on eletric could of warmed the connection and caused it to melt. Ill check that out today.


----------



## revgmills

I have a brand new deep well. All the components from the breaker to the 3 wire pump are new (wire, control etc). I have power to the control but from there to the well head there is only power on the black wire going down to the pump, nothing on the red or white (yellow). If it is powered by a generator it works. The entire installation was done by a well company. When the install was completed it didn't work. They hooked it up temporarily earlier last week so that we could have water until they could get back to finish it. We just turned the breaker on and off to fill our cistern (well is low yield) and it ran fine the entire time. Before they left they tried it with their generator and it ran. Their deduction was that the problem lied with our panel and left. But it was working that morning when they arrived? We had an electrician look at our panel to verify it was connected there fine and it was. Soooo.... Any ideas on what we can do now?


----------



## supers05

Sounds like something wasn't hooked up right. I'd call the well company back. If they give you the run around, we can help you. You'll have to have 5 posts before you post pictures. 

Cheers!


----------



## revgmills

We have a brand new deep well everything from the breaker to the pump is new and was installed by a professional firm. For some reason it will run on a generator but not on panel. It was working temporarily by using the breaker on and off the very morning they arrived to finish the installation. When it was completed it didn't work at all. They connected it on their generator and it ran. They came up with the idea that there is a problem at our panel and left. We had an electrician look at our panel and the connection there and we were told it was fine. It is a3 wire pump and it was showing power to the control box. From there to the well head it had power only on the black wire going down to the pump. Any ideas?


----------



## Finn-G

my control box readings for the motor:Blk/yl = 4ohms apx red /yl = 12.5 ohms red /blk = 15.5ohms

Does it seem like the well pump motor is okay?

3/4HP I believe Franklin Electric (not 100% though) It is a Franklin Electric QD Control Panel 

3 wire.

I don't have the best multimeter.... so there is that too. 


original Cap failed testing

replaced cap and cleaned up all wires.
Motor now starts but won't stay on.
I think the relay failed one test, is it likely the relay? 

Voltage was also tested and working correctly for the L1, L2

with cleaned wiring, breaker no longer trips


----------

