# Help! Latex Paint peeling off the walls!



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I would guess the pink is oil and you( or someone) put the blue latex on top with no prep work. All of the blue must be removed and the pink primed with a bonding primer. Cover stain is a good one or you can use the 123 after a light sanding of the pink.


Betonel VIP 100% acrylic latex paint

never heard of that:no:


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

That's probably a good guess (though it's not pink, it's various shades of white underneath the turquoise latex). The old paint was likely oil, and your typical lazy contractors did no prep work on the walls, before "spot priming" (throwing a bit of thin primer here and there in spots). It is very unlikely they used an oil-based primer. Thing is, I do not know how to remove the blue (turquoise) latex paint. I tried metal and plastic scrapers, blow dryer, and the only way it comes off is if I roll it under my fingers, bit by bit, then stretch and peel off the rubbery paint layer in small sections. But that is very tiring, and I have 4 walls to do! 

The tecnician at Zinsser said priming over a peelable layer of latex is not giong to work no matter which of their products I try, and that I should let the blue latex paint cure for 5 more days, and see whether it bonds. Does this sound like another gigantic waste of my time or a reasonable idea? Frankly, I'm not sure what else to do, as I do not have many tools at my disposal (ie. no power sander). BTW, Betonel is very likely a Quebec only brand. 






chrisn said:


> I would guess the pink is oil and you( or someone) put the blue latex on top with no prep work. All of the blue must be removed and the pink primed with a bonding primer. Cover stain is a good one or you can use the 123 after a light sanding of the pink.
> 
> 
> Betonel VIP 100% acrylic latex paint
> ...


----------



## Cpcphil (Jul 2, 2012)

You definitely need to remove all the existing coating (blue) from the wall. There are several ways to do this scrape, sand or chemically strip. There are a number of good quality citrus water based strippers on the market. The key is patience because they take time to work, actually softening the paint you want to strip so you can scrape it from the surface. Most likely the paint on the wall underneath the blue is oil based but there is a test you can do to determine for sure. Take some denatured alcohol saturate a white, clean rag and wipe the surface. If it softens the coating then it's latex if it doesn't then it's oil. 

After you have removed all the blue paint, wipe down the surface to be painted with denatured alcohol and let dry for at least 30 minutes. Lightly sand the surface if it is glossy, wipe off sanding dust with a clean, damp rag and let dry. Then apply an adhesion promoting primer. Let primer dry according to label directions then apply your paint, again following label directions. 

All surfaces you paint need to be clean, dull and dry. It does not matter what surface you paint it has to be clean, dull and dry. 

Also keep in mind that excessive humidity can cause paint not to cure properly and therefore will have very poor adhesion to the surface. If the room is humid try turning on the exhaust fan or simply placing a box fan on low in the room will help "dry" the air. 

Last thing... Look at the back of the blue paint that you can peel off the wall. If it is a milky white color then the previous coating is failing. If is feels gritty or sandy then the walls were not cleaned prior to painting the blue paint. Remember a new coat of paint is only as good as whats underneath it so if the coating you are painting over is peeling gues what? The new coat of paint will do the same. There is no miracle paint that can "lock down" a crappy paint job...

I hope this helps...

Phil "the paint guy"


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

Thanks, Phil. Removing the paint is proving to be easier said than done. I've tried sanding, that just rubs the paint right into the wall, making it harder to come off. I've tried scraping with metal and plastic scrapers and razors; it will not come off like that, as it does not flake off. I will look into citrus paint removers, but I don't have much hope of something like that working. The paint does, as I've said, roll off under the fingers and can be pulled off in bits. But it would take a year and a half for me to remove it like that. 

Is there no merit to what the Zinsser agent told me - that this is a "problem" I created myself, by not waiting long enough for the paint to cure? And that it could resolve itself by waiting 5 more days? (it could stop peeling once it fully cures) She said their own primer products can be expected to do the same thing, if you don't wait a week for it to fully cure. 

You can see the back of the paint in the photo below. Although the wall underneath the blue paint feels dry, with no white paint flaking or pulling off, there is obviously white primer on the back of the paint piece. It feels dry and sandy. Although the wall was supposedly primed by the contractors, it was certainly not cleaned with TSP or water to remove the plaster dust (then again, there is only the section in the photo were the gyproc was replaced).


----------



## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

use a hair dyer and peel. Don't sand.


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> use a hair dyer and peel. Don't sand.


Maybe you've had better luck with this, but I found that using a hot hair dryer was not really any faster than just using my fingers and peeling, except I could only use one hand to peel. There's got to be an easier way!


----------



## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

angle grinder with a wire wheel. lol

have you tried a sheetrock mudding knife to scrape?


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

jimmy21 said:


> angle grinder with a wire wheel. lol


That's why I said no power tools! I am not that well equipped... i did try a metal putty knife along with a few plastic ones, and a razor knife. I found I was more likely to damage the drywall than have any chance of scraping up the paint. However, I have not tried an actual paint scraper tool (as pictured below), so I don't know if that will make all the difference. So far, only rolling the edges of the paint layer with my fingers has succeeded at taking it off - bit by tiny bit....

If I can not manage a reasonable way to get this paint off the wall, and I don't have much hope that I will, then I will wait the 5 days advised by Zinsser, to see if the latex paint will finally cure and adhere without being easily scraped off with a finger. If that's the case, I will spackle the area I did manage to scrape off with my hands, then repaint it with the same latex, then let that spot cure for one week, then prime all 4 walls with Zinsser CoverStain (oil based primer), let that cure for one week, then paint it with another coat of the blue latex, and let _that_ cure for one week before even thinking of turning on the bath or shower!


----------



## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas. 
If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz) 
Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

The problem is I _can_ peel the paint off... anywhere, at any spot, on any wall at any time. I just can't peel it off with a scraper, but it all comes off if pulled by my fingers. There is no bubbling problems anywhere. The entire surface of the 4 walls is the "weak area", as none of the paint appears to have adhered well to the walls. It seems that either oil paint was originally used and then a bit of weak latex primer over top of that here and there, or the walls were not cleaned prior to painting, and dust from small drywall repair was not removed. Or I simply did not wait a full week for the latex paint to cure. It is a small bathroom after all, and we're in mid-summer. Though I have not turned the water on, the humidity in the room can't be that low, and that can't help with the curing process. 

Gardz may be great, but it's water based primer. The agent from Bentonel (the manufacturer of my paint) advised me to use an oil based primer - which is why I mentioned CoverStain. Reason being it is very likely the original paint underneath the latex and primer was oil paint. Also, I spoke with the agent from Zinsser today, and we discussed Gardz, Bullseye 123 and PeelStop primers. She recommended I go with Bullseye (though I can't say why....).



Brushjockey said:


> If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas.
> If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz)
> Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.


----------



## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

Brushjockey said:


> If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas.
> If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz)
> Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.


just because its not peeling up now, doesn't mean it won't be in a couple months. There is obviously an adhesion problem and it all needs to come off


----------



## Cpcphil (Jul 2, 2012)

I have a few more questions for you. Was all the Sheetrock replace And is the paint peeling only on the new Sheetrock? Did the contractors texture the sheetrock prior to your painting this surface. How long did you wait before painting over the top of the contractors spot priming? Temperature and humidy during your Application of paint? When did you finish painting? 

It looks like the contractors textured the wall and that is what is on the backside of the paint you peel off the wall. Texture is typically dry overnight and safe for primer the next day. If you painted over this texture without a primer and you put on heavy coats to get this dark color to hide and cover and knowing this paint is 100% acrylic in a deep or neutral base you definitely could have issues with adhesion. If this is the case scrape off what you can and let this paint cure. Curing takes about 3 weeks but then it should shrink down and stick to the Sheetrock. Then you can sand and feather the edges where the paint peeled down to the Sheetrock, prime the bare areas Then paint over the primer. 

Feel free to email me at [email protected] or call 4065995251

Thank you....


----------



## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

If it is peeling then you must find the way to get it off. Use a variety of tools and see what works. Sometimes the amount of flex, or the sharpness of a particular scraper might make all the difference. Hot water sprayed on to make rubbery- same idea as the heat gun, etc. Find its week spot and exploit.
I just saw the scraper that you showed. that is the wrong type for this- you want a straight flex 3 or 4 " scraper. that's what Id try anyway.










Some "Experts" are more expert than others. I wont argue the coverstain, I know it will work. I also know alot about Gardz because i have used it in many situations. But i don't need to prove that here. 
I do say that the 123 is not the choice for here. 
If your paint is very rubbery- it is not the right paint. When you get to recoat time, consider a better product.


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

No, just a relatively small section of drywall near the tub was replaced, around the area in the first photo where I removed the blue latex paint. However, the paint peels _everywhere_, if I scrape it with my fingernails. This is why I am more inclined to believe the original paint was quite possibly oil paint. I'm not sure what "texture" refers to, but from what I saw, they just added very thin milky primer to various spots around the bathroom. Maybe they might have spread some plaster here or there, and not primed over it. But I did not see them with any product other than plaster or primer. 

They did no prep or anything to the walls, other than spot priming (and possibly spot plastering) . Heck, they resented even priming the walls after their reno work was done! Before painting over top of the spot-primed walls, i waited about 5 days or so. It,s been 2-3 days since I painted with blue latex. The last few days have not been terribly hot, so temp and humidity was about average for this time of year, which is of course somewhat higher than winter. I have not turned any water on in the bathroom since well before the renovation work. Still, I am planning to leave a box fan running day-night and the room's ceiling exhaust fan, to help speed up any curing-bonding that might take place. 



> Then you can sand and feather the edges where the paint peeled down to the Sheetrock, prime the bare areas Then paint over the primer.


Well, I was planning to prime the entire room. But when ready for priming, there will be a layer of difference between the paint I removed, and the paint still adhering to the wall. Do I need to spackle or plaster the bare areas then? If not, won't there be a difference showing if I put primer over both bare areas and painted areas?

Wait, did you say curing takes about 3 weeks?? But... but... the lady from Zinsser said I should wait 5 days! And that's already a long time to go without a bathroom! If I have to wait 3 weeks for the latex to cure, then 3 weeks for the primer to cure, then 3 weeks for the latex recoat, I'll be finished this project..... approximately _never_. I can't hold it in that long!


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

I like what I read on the Gardz, but it is a waterbourne primer - have you used it over oil paint? It seems to be the best of the 3 Zinssers for this job, but I am just not sure it is suitable if what is underneath the latex and primer is oil paint. BTW, I tried the 3-4" metal scraper similar to pictured - it removed absolutely nothing. Even though the paint still comes off relatively easily with fingernail scraping. The paint is a 100% acrylic formulation. I thought that was considered good paint....







Brushjockey said:


> If it is peeling then you must find the way to get it off. Use a variety of tools and see what works. Sometimes the amount of flex, or the sharpness of a particular scraper might make all the difference. Hot water sprayed on to make rubbery- same idea as the heat gun, etc. Find its week spot and exploit.
> I just saw the scraper that you showed. that is the wrong type for this- you want a straight flex 3 or 4 " scraper. that's what Id try anyway.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Cpcphil (Jul 2, 2012)

Ok let's backup here. Latex paint reaches it's full cure in about 3 weeks depending on temperature and humidity. Curing means it reaches it's maximum hardness, resistance to water, scrubbability among other things. Dry time and recoat time are different. Most latex primers on the market can be topcoated after 4 hours @ 77 degrees and 50% Relative humidity (these parameters are always the standard in the paint world) And most latex paints can be re-coated in 4 to 6 hours. So you can prime and paint all in one day.

You need time to let your paint cure because here's most likely what has happened. Little to no prep of an oilbased, glossy paint that your contractors spot primed with a latex low cost sealer. You then waited 5 days then painted the surface and probably applied your paint in 2 thick coats and didn't wait long enough for the 1st coat of paint to dry. When you were applying your second coat the first was still tacky (sticky to the touch) then you waited. What then happened is the paint needs to dry from the inside out but you trapped in moisture because the prior coat of paint was never dry. The paint is rubbery and has little to no adhesion to the surface because the moisture in between the layers of the paint. 

So now you have 2 choices wait for the paint to dry enough where it starts to harden up and adhere to the sheetrock or try to remove it while it is in the curing cycle. 

You can use your bathroom, just make sure when people shower in there that they use the exhaust fan or crack the window to let the moisture escape. Also make sure the bathroom has plenty ventilation to let it completely dry out when not in use.

And yes you can put a latex paint or primer over an oil paint or primer. Make sure the surface is always clean, dull (sand glossy surfaces then clean sanding dust off surface) and dry...

do not put any primer (oil-based, water-based, alcoholbased - no matter what the brand) over a rubbery paint. You will just seal in the moisture even more and it will take even longer for the paint to dry and cure...

let it dry and cure or remove it...


----------



## Morris C. (May 31, 2012)

Thanks a lot for your helpful response and educating me on your vast knowledge of painting, Phil. I think what you described as what most likely happened, is what most likely happened. I did apply the first coat on the pretty thick side. I waited a day to recoat and I recall touching the latex before recoating, to see how sticky it was. I can't say that it was not at all sticky at that point, because if I pressed hard enough with my fingers, I could feel a slight touch of stickiness. Although I waited much longer than the required 4-6 hours to recoat, as I have now learned, you are better to go by "feel" than by directions on the can. 

Trying to remove the paint now before it is cured is looking like a nightmare to me. Forced removal could take as long as waiting for it to cure would take, and I have a high chance of damaging the drywall (or myself, from what I've been reading of chemical strippers). So the way to deal with this is starting to look a lot clearer to me now: Painting over the portion that I pulled off (after sanding the edges of the torn paint with fine grit sandpaper), then (patiently!) waiting 5-21(?) days for it to fully cure. And NO priming over what I have painted, until the blue latex is fully cured. 

I think the only thing I'm not quite clear on yet is what kind of primer that I should eventually use. I would like to try Zinsser Gardz or maybe Bullseye 123, but they are both water-based primers. I'm getting mixed opinions on this, but I was told by my paint manufacturer that assuming the walls were originally oil paint, I should only use an oil based primer (ie. CoverStain). However, it will be going over the two coats of cured latex paint, so does it still matter on the choice of new primer, if there was oil paint underneath the latex and old primer? 



Cpcphil said:


> Ok let's backup here. Latex paint reaches it's full cure in about 3 weeks depending on temperature and humidity. Curing means it reaches it's maximum hardness, resistance to water, scrubbability among other things. Dry time and recoat time are different. Most latex primers on the market can be topcoated after 4 hours @ 77 degrees and 50% Relative humidity (these parameters are always the standard in the paint world) And most latex paints can be re-coated in 4 to 6 hours. So you can prime and paint all in one day.
> 
> You need time to let your paint cure because here's most likely what has happened. Little to no prep of an oilbased, glossy paint that your contractors spot primed with a latex low cost sealer. You then waited 5 days then painted the surface and probably applied your paint in 2 thick coats and didn't wait long enough for the 1st coat of paint to dry. When you were applying your second coat the first was still tacky (sticky to the touch) then you waited. What then happened is the paint needs to dry from the inside out but you trapped in moisture because the prior coat of paint was never dry. The paint is rubbery and has little to no adhesion to the surface because the moisture in between the layers of the paint.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cpcphil (Jul 2, 2012)

I would just spot prime bare areas with a high quality water-based primer. No need to prime over the painted surface that is adhering well to the wall after it has a chance to cure. You will need to sand and feather out the edges were the paint has peeled so the is no obvious ridge. 

The issue is not if you have enough paint on the wall, it's getting whats on the wall to stick. I really see no advantage of re-priming over the blue as long as it has time to cure, has good adhesion to the surface and looks good.

As far as specific products I will not mention any ( just make sure whatever you choose it is of high quality ) also make sure that the areas you do prime over are clean, dull and dry.


----------



## Will22 (Feb 1, 2011)

Shearing paint off of the wall after two days indicates that the product was not allowed to cure sufficiently. There may be contamination on the underside preventing good adhesion. Hopefully, ventilation was adequate to provide proper curing. The low VOC formulations today dry to touch quickly, but cure slowly.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Gardz is not what you want to prime over oil with.:no:


----------



## sara37tx (Dec 15, 2012)

The exact same thing happened to me! It peels off in sheets. I noticed that paint underneath was dirty/glossy and not prepped. I thought it was oil based at first but tried the rubbing alcohol swipe on the paint and the color came off onto the rag on both layers of paint. So I assume both paints are Latex. As far as getting the old peeling paint off the walls...I did notice that when I touched the walls they were wet and after taking a shower the paint comes off easy with just a scrapper. What I did was remove the top layer using the steam from my shower then allowed the bathroom to dry for a couple days. I then sanded the walls and wiped them down before applying a primer and paint. No problems now.


----------

