# Ceiling Joints Need to be Re-taped



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Confusing.
Is there a crack, or does it just look like someone used to narrow a drywall knife so the compound is not feathered out on the edges?
Makes no since to me to try and come up with some custom blend like that.


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

Sorry if confusing...
When you look at the joints (16' long) there is a noticeable seam right down the middle of the joints --- it almost looks like the joint is sagging a little and creates a seam the entire length of the room along the joint - very noticeable...


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

Since the joints have already been taped and filled you are now going to be finishing 16ft butt joints. Unless you can remove all of the old compound out of the taper you're going to have a tough time making it look good. If the previous finisher used regular compound you can (wet)sponge it out pretty easily including the mesh tape. Also check for movement. You may want to add some screws while you're at it. Is this a modular home by any chance?


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

) make a "bowl" of compound mix - circle of all purpose compound with some easy-sand setting compound in the middle...apply water to the setting compound and then mix together when ready - apply this to the joints)

This one really has me confused.Never heard anything like that and I do this stuff several times a week.
You never mix setting compound and premixed together.Hot mud dries by chemical reaction and premixed dries from evaporation.Mixing them is a sure way to get some cracked joints.
Only use mesh tape with hot mud if you must use it.We still use paper tape.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

One option - the cheap way out - is to simply put more compound over the existing joints. This is a risk because you don't know why the joints buckled to begin with. It could be that adding screws and retaping is best.

To remove, normally mesh tape is pretty tough, so if you can get it started (cut edges with utility knife), you should just be able to pull that tape and have the joint come out.

The next time, it's true you can use setting compound for the first coat for a stronger joint. However any structural issues trump the type of compound you use. If there is movement in the structure, there's not much you can do. Perhaps any movement is done now, but rescrewing that drywall might still be necessary.

I would not recommend mesh tape. If you don't like paper, use FibaFuse.

For repairing torn drywall paper, a coat of Gardz usually works well before patching and continuing.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

"The next time, it's true you can use setting compound for the first coat for a stronger joint. However any structural issues trump the type of compound you use. If there is movement in the structure, there's not much you can do. Perhaps any movement is done now, but rescrewing that drywall might still be necessary."

I use setting compound for everything but the slick coat and them use topping but he is talking about mixing setting and premixed together.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

mako1 said:


> I use setting compound for everything but the slick coat and them use topping but he is talking about mixing setting and premixed together.


Yeah, well I couldn't tell what he was talking about there either. I suspect he watched some YouTube video about some other technique and got confused. I've never heard of, and see no reason to, mix setting and drying together.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

+1 It's just asking for a joint failure as the mixture will set at different rates.


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

Haha - correct about the YouTube video - I will scratch that idea of mixing.
Is a 45-minute or 90-minute Easy Sand setting compound OK for this application to embed the tape and a light first coat? - again, I'm not a pro so I need a little extra time to work with it.

FibaFuse will be easier for me and strong enough - correct?

It seems like removing the old mesh is going to take quite some time - I've started and it is not just peeling off in strips...it's going little by little...?

Thanks for all of the great advice - I appreciate your time on this.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

hagler said:


> Haha - correct about the YouTube video - I will scratch that idea of mixing.
> Is a 45-minute or 90-minute Easy Sand setting compound OK for this application to embed the tape and a light first coat? - again, I'm not a pro so I need a little extra time to work with it.
> 
> FibaFuse will be easier for me and strong enough - correct?
> ...


Use 90 minute and paper tape and you'll be good.Don't mix anymore mud than you can use in 30 minutes.Put a thin coat on top of the tape also so it absorbs the moisture evenly.Mix well but not to long.You don't want any chunks in there.To almost usable concistensy .Let it sit a couple minutes and then add a dab more water and mix again.Scrape the sides down before mixing again so you don't knock any dry mix in.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

hagler said:


> Is a 45-minute or 90-minute Easy Sand setting compound OK for this application to embed the tape and a light first coat? - again, I'm not a pro so I need a little extra time to work with it.


Since this is your own home and you can work at your own pace, I would recommend using the 90 so you have plenty of time.



hagler said:


> FibaFuse will be easier for me and strong enough - correct?


Correct, however not to be confused with FibaTape mesh tape. FibaFuse isn't easy to find, but it's easier than using paper and stronger than mesh. But if you can't find it, I'd use paper and just take your time getting it embedded correctly. The advantage of FibaFuse is you can squeeze through some compound from the top, avoiding the dreaded air bubbles under paper.



hagler said:


> It seems like removing the old mesh is going to take quite some time - I've started and it is not just peeling off in strips...it's going little by little...?


Sorry to hear that, normally that's the easiest part of the whole process. Must just be an unlucky situation.


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

I have removed the tape from one of the joints where I need to replace a piece of drywall (6' long along the joint)...
They aren't any screws at all along the joint...it seems they screwed the middle of the drywall sheets (hopefully) and at the joints just assumed that the tape and compound would be enough...this is probably why every ceiling joint is sagging - correct?

So, now I am down to the brown paper at the joint along the joist...very thin piece left and also some gouges into the gypsum (no paper at all - just gypsum)...

My question is...if I try to screw along the joint now, how will I sink the screw enough to be able to tape over it??? the brown paper is not thick enough and in some spots it is just gypsum...
Is there any way to put screws in along the joint and still be able to tape over it without them being proud? Or another way to support these joint?
What should I do before I start removing the tape from the other 4 joints that need to be fixed?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Technically, drywall gets its strength from the paper, so once it's gone, all bets are off. It really ought to be replaced.

Alternatives? Totally guessing here. You could try taping the whole area first, before you screw back on. The paper tape attached to the drywall with setting compound might be like a repair to the drywall paper facing. You might need more than 1 strip to fully cover, I don't know. Then you could try screwing into that paper tape to countersink the screw head, and mud over that. I have never tried such a thing though.


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

Setting compound was not used initially on these joints. Is it possible that I can use setting compound with FibaFuse and that will strengthen the joints - with the setting compound providing a more solid joint? Then, I won't have to replace all of the drywall on the ceiling?? Just trying to avoid replacing the entire ceiling....
Thanks again Jeffnc


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

One moree question Jeffnc...If you think I should still replace the entire ceiling:
1) Can I install new drywall over the current drywall on the ceiling? - If Yes, current drywall is 5/8" thick...how thick should the new drywall be and what size screws will I need? I also have crown molding in this room, so that will have to be removed anyway...

2) Current drywall is installed parallel to the joists with the long side running with the joists...New drywall should be perpendicular to the joists - correct?...so, the 4' butt joints will be parallel with the joists...correct?

Thank you.


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## JourneymanBrian (Apr 1, 2015)

If the ceiling is intact and only has cosmetic problems at the joints, there is really no reason to replace it. The drywall does not only rely on the paper for its strength, as was discussed in another thread.

You say there is mesh at the moment? Presumably thats fiberglass. 
Can you sand through it? I would remove everything thats loose from the joints, sand the area deep enough that when you fill it its still flat, and then reapply fiberglass mesh with filler.

Fiberglass mesh is definitely stronger than fiberglass tape.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

I'd bet the reason there are no screws is that there is nothing behind to screw into. Even the worst hacks would have put in some screws if a joist was there behind the rock.

OP: did you check this? You can cut a 16" strip out and insert a new piece in there. Add blocking to screw to if req'd.


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

Good point! I will check and update...
If that is true, how should I approach this?

Keep in mind that when I remove the tape, I can't really put screws in because they will go right through the thin brown paper left on the drywall...very thin after I remove the tape & compound...so I don't know if blocking will help?

Joists are 16" OC.
Thanks.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Once the paper if gone most of the strength of the drywall is also.That is why when hanging drywall you want the screws to be dimpled in the paper put not breaking it.
Do you want to try another half assed job like the original to have it fail again and then have to do it correctly?
You don't want any drywall joints parallel to the joists.I have redone some similar jobs like this using 3/8 over the old but the drywall was in good shape with the paper facing intact on the wallboard.Trying to screw it up with the paper gone will lead to failure.
I do this work several times a week and have been for 40 years so take my advice for what you paid for it.Nothing.
My moto is "do a job ,big or small,do it right or don't do it at all"
I didn't come up with that.Been around a long time and I believe in it.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

hagler said:


> Good point! I will check and update...
> If that is true, how should I approach this?
> 
> Keep in mind that when I remove the tape, I can't really put screws in because they will go right through the thin brown paper left on the drywall...very thin after I remove the tape & compound...so I don't know if blocking will help?
> ...


You would cut the drywall at the center of next joist over. With that strip of drywall removed, you could now easily screw in some blocking into the joist side to reinstall the new strip of rock to.

This is assuming there is nothing there.
If there is a joist there for screwing you could still cut out a piece in the same fashion to replace the bad stuff.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

This is sure not the way I would do it.You want drywall running perpendicular to the joist.You would have a bunch of butts that are hand cut.Why reinvent the wheel and have to add a bunch of blocking when you can just fix it right?


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

Mako1. I agree. I want to do it right - one time and do it correctly. 
I checked and there are joists behind the joints. Fyi. 
But with them being parallel i should install new drywall over the old - correct?
Drywall up now is in good shape except two joints 5' long where i removed tape 2.5" wide. Can i use 3/8" over the old drywall? 
Also, how would you tape? Can i use FibaFuse and go with setting compound for first two coats or what do you ususlly do?
Thsnks for the help


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

You should run all drywall perpendicular to the joist.you can use 3/8 ove rthe old board as long as it is in good shape and screwed well to the joists.I would not attempt this in the shape you say it is in.
We are remodeling contractors not drywall contractors but do a lot of it.Some weeks it is every day.I may get some diagrements from some of the drywall guys but will explain how we do it for you.Have been doing it this way for 20 some years and don't ever remember a call back.There is more than one way to skin a cat or do drywall.
We use Durabond 90 in the white bag.Some complain about sanding this and they probably bought the brown bag.Much harder to sand USG easy sand 90 will also work and can be bought at HD.
We prefill any large joints or cracks in old walls before taping.Just fill them with mud and let dry for a little time.We put a layer of hot mud down.Set the tape and go over the tape with a thin layer of mud to even it out and get some mud on both sides of the tape.Moisture on both sides helps it to dry properly.
After the tape is bedded and set up we scrape with a 10" knife held on a bevel and pulled backwards acrossed the joint to take of any acess.No sanding.You should then have a nice flat joint.But not a finished joint.
We then go over it with a final coat of topping compound(blue lid) feathering it out nice to 12-14 inches.After this has cured we do sand it using a 9" pole sander with vac attached.A manual pole sander from hd will work as good if you watch what you're doing .Just not as fast and clean.
When mixing hot mud it is important to follow the directions.you want to get it to a slightly thick consistency ,let it set for a couple minutes ,scrape the sides of the bucket down and then add a bit more water to get it just right.The rest period is important to let the water all incorporate into the powder,


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## hagler (Mar 2, 2012)

So if not 3/8" drywall... What should I do in my case. Again. Only two seams have that area down to brown paper...thanks
Thanks for the advice.


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