# lennox vs trane vs carrier



## oldfartswife (Aug 13, 2009)

Help! We need a new furnace and aren't sure which one to buy.I'm looking for input from "real people" instead of salesman. So can anyone tell me about the pros and cons of each or refer me to something like a consumers report comparing furnaces. We are currently looking at lennox, carrier and trane. Please and thanks... I did hear that Lennox gets an unusual number of call backs for repair.


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## dac122 (Sep 5, 2008)

Unfortunately there is no objective reliability comparison data on manufacturers, but rather anecdotal stories. Focus on the install and be sure that is done right, since even superior brands can be turned into junk. Be sure to ask for a load calc (aka Manual J) before they quote you a new furnace. I'm not a fan of VS blowers because of their costly replacement cost.

If you have specific quotes, go ahead and quote post them, and we can offer our opinions


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

oldfartswife said:


> Help! We need a new furnace and aren't sure which one to buy.I'm looking for input from "real people" instead of salesman. So can anyone tell me about the pros and cons of each or refer me to something like a consumers report comparing furnaces. We are currently looking at lennox, carrier and trane. Please and thanks... I did hear that Lennox gets an unusual number of call backs for repair.


I assume your replacement project is not DIY??

In that case ignore the brand of equipment and hire the best contractor you can possible find and go with the brand they they're most experienced with. The contractor is way more important then the nameplate on the equipment. Beside that, most equipment uses industry std. components. (ex: Emerson compressors, Ranco control boards, GE motors, etc, etc, etc). A builder's grade HVAC system that's properly sized and installed will be far superior to an elite grade system that's been improperly sized or improperly installed.

Also make sure the contractor calculates the size based on a detailed analysis of your home. (manual J/D, etc) If they guess at the size then send them packing!!! Check BBB, your state contractors board and most importantly word of mouth when choosing a contractor because it's so vitally important and unfortunately the industry has plenty of hacks and con men.

Your choice of contractor is everything!!!

P.S. Callback data is meanigless when comparing brands because most callbacks are induced by installation errors.


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## hvac122 (Dec 10, 2007)

hennyh said:


> I assume your replacement project is not DIY??
> 
> In that case ignore the brand of equipment and hire the best contractor you can possible find and go with the brand they they're most experienced with. The contractor is way more important then the nameplate on the equipment. Beside that, most equipment uses industry std. components. (ex: Emerson compressors, Ranco control boards, GE motors, etc, etc, etc). A builder's grade HVAC system that's properly sized and installed will be far superior to an elite grade system that's been improperly sized or improperly installed.
> 
> ...


Very well said.

Choosing your contractor is everything. All of the above manufactures are fine but if not installed properly they can be alot of trouble.

We sell Lennox and do not have problems with them. The other brands mentioned would be good also if installed right.

Variable speed blowers are going to be required for any high efficiency system and cause very few problems also.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't have a preference between the three brands you mentioned. What I can tell you is regardless of which you choose make sure you get a maintenance plan with a reputable company. Many of the problems and repairs associated with HVAC units can be avoided by having the units properly installed and properly maintained.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

I would think a necessarily bad [for building structural reasons] or accidentally bad, install can be fixed by the use of one or more variable speed duct booster fans and one or more dampers, all of which need to be properly balanced, and the balance is different for heating and for cooling.

I guess you could ask for design-center values for CFM and FPM at each register before the work is done, and measured values after.

Call HVAC places beforehand for the price of a new control board for each brand; I've heard they are costly and fragile.

Find all the dipswitches 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIP_switch
in the unit and confirm that all the settings are correct. One guy was supposed to get a 50% reduction in his cooling elec. bill and there was no change, possibly due to this.
Seems like some techs just leave each switch in the default position.


If you get enough bids and plot them you can probably tell what you really need and what it may cost.
.........a...bcd...e.........f
$0....1.....2.....3.....4.....5
........^relative price^
Bids a and f are probably outliers, and bcd seems to be the true price of doing your job in your zip code, today.
Incompetence and greed may cancel out to some extent with this method.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> I would think a necessarily bad [for building structural reasons] or accidentally bad, install can be fixed by the use of one or more variable speed duct booster fans and one or more dampers, all of which need to be properly balanced, and the balance is different for heating and for cooling.
> 
> I guess you could ask for design-center values for CFM and FPM at each register before the work is done, and measured values after.
> 
> ...




ZZZZZZZZZ chk chk ZZZZZZZZZZ..snork.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:laughing: jusy kidding guy.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> I would think a necessarily bad [for building structural reasons] or accidentally bad, install can be fixed by the use of one or more variable speed duct booster fans and one or more dampers, all of which need to be properly balanced, and the balance is different for heating and for cooling.
> 
> I guess you could ask for design-center values for CFM and FPM at each register before the work is done, and measured values after.
> 
> ...




ZZZZZZZZZ chk chk ZZZZZZZZZZ..snork.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:laughing: just kidding guy.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyzie had a data processor interfaced with his frontal lobe.

Sometimes he's comes off soudin' like HAL the computer in a SPACE ODESSAY.

But we're lucky to have him/:thumbsup:


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> I would think a necessarily bad [for building structural reasons] or accidentally bad, install can be fixed by the use of one or more variable speed duct booster fans and one or more dampers, all of which need to be properly balanced, and the balance is different for heating and for cooling.


Duct boosters and dampers cure a bad install??



> Call HVAC places beforehand for the price of a new control board for each brand; I've heard they are costly and fragile.


So are coils, compressors, reversing valves, motors etc. Might as well download the entire parts list and price it out.:laughing:



> Find all the dipswitches
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIP_switch
> in the unit and confirm that all the settings are correct. One guy was supposed to get a 50% reduction in his cooling elec. bill and there was no change, possibly due to this.
> Seems like some techs just leave each switch in the default position.


I'd like to find that magical dip switch setting to reduce my bill by 50%. Unfortunately my system doesn't have a dip switch. 




> If you get enough bids and plot them you can probably tell what you really need and what it may cost.
> .........a...bcd...e.........f
> $0....1.....2.....3.....4.....5
> ........^relative price^
> ...


Good point.:thumbup:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

I figure if I write enough stuff some of it is bound to be useful. :laughing: 

Plus, the microchip that the CIA implanted in my left temporal lobe influences my thoughts. 
It's the light spot in the upper left.
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/images/mri.gif
BTW, if you think you see an angry face in this brain scan, get help!

With the duct fans/dampers, here's my reasoning:
In an electrical circuit, no matter what the resistances (friction through several duct lengths) if you put enough voltage sources (fans) and dampers (resistors) in enough places you can make current (CFM) flow any way you want to.
That's the theory, but there may be practical reasons why this isn't popular.

For the parts prices, control boards seem more prone to damage from lightning strikes and HO DIYers than the other stuff, and they are costly. Compressors are costly, but they are also hardy (?)


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## hennyh (Nov 14, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> Plus, the microchip that the CIA implanted in my left temporal lobe influences my thoughts.
> It's the light spot in the upper left.
> http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/images/mri.gif
> BTW, if you think you see an angry face in this brain scan, get help!


OK, but next time you provide HVAC advice you might want to make sure you're at least 3' or more from any microwave ovens in use.
:jester:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

hennyh said:


> OK, but next time you provide HVAC advice you might want to make sure you're at least 3' or more from any microwave ovens in use.
> :jester:


I was wondering why my tinfoil hat wasn't working!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_insertion


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Hell, they picked up that picture on ordinary X-rays when I joined the service.

That's why they put me in that special unit:whistling2:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Hell, they picked up that picture on ordinary X-rays when I joined the service.
> 
> That's why they put me in that special unit:whistling2:


With fangs like that I'd even put you in a special unit.:laughing:

Bad A$$ Troglodyte Soldiers, BATS for short. . .


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> With fangs like that I'd even put you in a special unit.:laughing:
> 
> Bad A$$ Troglodyte Soldiers, BATS for short. . .



Google NACIP and then read between the lines. Your acronym isn't far off base.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Speaking of bada$$, Harper's magazine says "killbots" are being manufactured that power themselves by eating the corpses of those they kill. A pound of fat will give these things 4 kwh.
They also eat plants.

But it's all OK because the manuf. said they are "telling" these robots not to eat people. 
Well, isn't that a relief!:thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yoyzie will plot a graph (or Google) all the Greek HVAC companies in Detroit. Then phone them and rat you out. BwaHaHaHa:gun_bandana:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

You guys are evil! :laughing:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Did I mention that my great Uncle was Stalin.:icon_evil:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Did I mention that my great Uncle was Stalin.:icon_evil:


I got one up on ya..my great great grand father was his drinking buddy and state executioner:laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Yoyzie will plot a graph (or Google) all the Greek HVAC companies in Detroit. Then phone them and rat you out. BwaHaHaHa:gun_bandana:



If you can find me then I'll give you five hundred bucks. Guys like me, we like our anonymity, so I got my stuff set up as fronts and decoys.

For all you know Yuri I am one of your neighbors. Why do you think I mention Canada so much.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> If you can find me then I'll give you five hundred bucks.


So if I'm willing to work for $10/hr I should spend 50 hrs. trying.

Speaking of Evil, did I mention that I am on speaking terms with Satan?:whistling2:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> So if I'm willing to work for $10/hr I should spend 50 hrs. trying.
> 
> Speaking of Evil, did I mention that I am on speaking terms with Satan?:whistling2:



Yeah we discussed it over drinks last night. Says you are a "HELL of a guy:yes:"

But the big ran into trouble when he was driving home. Here's the pic that made the news


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The _Crazy World Of Arthur Brown_ - Fire [totp]


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I'd keep your wife away from any phones for a week or two. $500 is a lot of dough and Yoyzie is good at finding facts and "other" info. .:detective:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> I'd keep your wife away from any phones for a week or two. $500 is a lot of dough and Yoyzie is good at finding facts and "other" info. .:detective:


Make it a grand:thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I bet he has "connections" with the CIA and IRS too. Better be nice to him.:sneaky2:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> I bet he has "connections" with the CIA and IRS too. Better be nice to him.:sneaky2:


i know people in Revenue Canada:laughing: and the Mounties!:yes:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Easy to fool. When a burglar broke into our Prime Ministers house he threw a bag of Tim Horton donuts over the security wall and distracted the whole bunch of em. Our Mounties like their Timmys and coffee.:laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)




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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> I bet he has "connections" with the CIA. . .


Did you hear that I was the original model for the Bourne Identity series?  

Well, if you did, it's not true. 

But I wouldn't mind being able to fight like him. . .:thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

And you guys don't believe me about my heritage. We used to call him "Uncle Joe". Had a great dacha on the Volga. Used to visit it for Summer holidays.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> And you guys don't believe me about my heritage. We used to call him "Uncle Joe". Had a great dacha on the Volga. Used to visit it for Summer holidays.


He had a big VOLVA?

Knew there was something strange about him.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

yuri said:


> Easy to fool. When a burglar broke into our Prime Ministers house he threw a bag of Tim Horton donuts over the security wall and distracted the whole bunch of em. Our Mounties like their Timmys and coffee.:laughing:










:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

*furnace experience*

Twelve years ago i got a Carrier Weathermaker. $4800 installed including 3 new registers replacing a 1928 Sears Industructo with Iron Fireman converted to gas. Gas bill cut in half. cleaned every year, used hepa filters. One minor loose screw covered under warranty. Now the venter motor has gone out of balance. The repairman from Atlas Butler says this part costs $1499 to replace and since this furnace is only expected to last 15 years anyway I should just replace the furnace now. He even had laminated graphs and prices of this EXACT part with him. I will leave editorial comment to others.
The Sears Industructo is in my sister's garage. works great.
Anyone have a 5sme44jg1005?


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## Flashheatingand (Sep 7, 2009)

Does this motor fold laundry and put the dishes back in the cupboards also? If so, it sounds like a bargain. I can't quote you prices on a replacement motor, and, today's furnace should still last more than 15 years provided it was sized right and the ductwork was set up right as well. Based on those few sentences, I would look for somebody else.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

oldfartswife said:


> Help! We need a new furnace and aren't sure which one to buy.I'm looking for input from "real people" instead of salesman. So can anyone tell me about the pros and cons of each or refer me to something like a consumers report comparing furnaces. We are currently looking at lennox, carrier and trane. Please and thanks... I did hear that Lennox gets an unusual number of call backs for repair.


Which brand did you choose.

Each of the ones you listed has builder models, and upper end models.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

biggerjim said:


> this part costs $1499 to replace and since this furnace is only expected to last 15 years anyway I should just replace the furnace now.


That's why the part costs $1.5 kilobucks; they want you to be on the fence as to repair/replace. Maybe Grainger can get it for you for $150.
I'm thinking now when a manuf. makes the mistake of accidentally making long lasting equip. they can still turn over their product by raising the price of replacement parts. You can then squeeze the last year of life out of your HVAC stuff but you will pay a price for that kind of behavior.

I get 16.5 year average life for all HVAC equip with 10% making it to 50 years and 10% being replaced for any number of reasons within 7 years.

As to repair/replace, plug in your own numbers. 
Cost new for an [HVAC appliance] = $600 [so you plug in $4800]

Cost for repairs & maintenance, 
1st yr., $400 [whatever you have spent, etc.]
2nd yr, $600 
3rd yr, $800 
4th yr, $1000
[your years would go to 12]

Figure the cumulative cost for each year:
1st, $400
2nd, $400+ $600 = $1000
3rd, similarly, $1800 
4th, similarly, $2800 

Add the price when new to the above column
1st, $1000 
2nd, $1600
3rd, $2400
4th, $3400

Now divide each column entry above by the year number
1st, $1000/1 = $1000
2nd, $1600/2 = $800
3rd, similarly, $800
4th, similarly, $850

The cost/year drops at first, and then starts rising. In this exaggerated example the minimum is probably reached between 2 and 3 years, and that's when you should replace it.


With your example done on a spreadsheet and assuming a cost of $100/yr you do get a point at 12 years where the cost/year goes up and so you should replace. 
But, if you extend the spreadsheet columns to past the 12 years, if the new motor lasts at least 3 years then the cost/yr again drops and goes below what it was before your $1500 motor came along. 

Since your first motor lasted 12 years I'd say "keep your system" and get bids on the repair. 
After the repair I give your system a 50-50 chance of making it to 20 yrs.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Biggerjim, what is the model # of your furnace? Is it a high efficiency condensing type. Carrier has some VERY expensive ventor fans with ECM motors and they probably sell for up to $1000. Anything over that is suspicious. The heat exchangers on some of the mid efficiency units crack before 15 yrs but are replaceable. Some of the high efficiency units had bad secondary heat exchangers and there was a class action lawsuit against Carrier about that. People sometimes accuse a servicetech of being a crook without knowing the history of the unit.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> Biggerjim, what is the model # of your furnace? Is it a high efficiency condensing type. Carrier has some VERY expensive ventor fans with ECM motors


Yes they do.

They are very proud of them.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Yes they do.
> 
> They are very proud of them.


humor :huh:?????


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> humor :huh:?????


They are so proud of those inducers. That they charge 80% of the wholesale cost of the furnace.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Riddle me this Batman? Why do they use those inducers (Hint) what is the advantage of them?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Depends a bit which model.

But maintains better combustion air.

Doesn't really help with fuel savings though.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You win the prize.arty: 
ECM will maintain a constant speed/velocity/flow and if the venting is poor or plugging up with snow it can compensate for that and not have as many nuisance pressure switch problems. Lennox uses that with the new G71 and ADDS a self calibration routine to the logic board. Sweet.:clap:


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

thanks for your replies. the furnace is carrier model 58mvp080. electric motor.com has a similar sounding motor except replacement is 16 w hp rated, 1850 rpm and has a corded plug (by photo) while original is marked 1/20 hp, 4000 rpm, and has female socket. oh yeah $108.25. photo sure looks the same. any opinions?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

They are not the same.
And you can't use a 1850RPM to do the job of a 4000RPM.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

biggerjim said:


> thanks for your replies. the furnace is carrier model 58mvp080. electric motor.com has a similar sounding motor except replacement is 16 w hp rated, 1850 rpm and has a corded plug (by photo) while original is marked 1/20 hp, 4000 rpm, and has female socket. oh yeah $108.25. photo sure looks the same. any opinions?


Can you post a photo of the nameplate of the orig. motor?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

That is a variable speed electronically commutated motor (ECM) and is a DC motor. Have to get the whole inducer from Carrier. Put anything else in and you will damage the circuit board. Motor cannot be bought or replaced separately as the impeller is specially clipped/heat pressed onto the motor shaft. I have replaced dozens of those units.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> I have replaced dozens of those units.


And Carrier smiles every time one is replaced.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If it was such a great idea I wonder why everyone else stayed with the standard PSC type? (Trane had a few of them also or some ridiculously expensive type on some mids I believe). All the ones I replaced were under a 10 yr warranty, I see the cost on the invoice though. Replacing those ventors is a HUGE pain in the butt. Not a easy DIY project if you have never done one or understand what can go wrong if they are not done right.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I don't know why they thought it was a good idea either.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I did some research and they have had it for a long time/ in 5 generations of units starting with a 121 series. I was wondering why the whole unit needed to be so wickedly complicated. A good reason to upsell their products by marketing it as high end and exotic with a longer warranty I guess. The list of codes and troubleshooting info for that unit is huge. Along with the dual boards in Yoyzies unit, Carrier likes to go with the extremely complicated design technology for a SMALL improvement in function IMO.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> Carrier likes to go with the extremely complicated design technology for a SMALL improvement in function IMO.


You wouldn't be able to post a schematic of that board, would you?:whistling2:


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

i tried the photo but i have issues getting it to this little box. it says:

ge motors & industrial systems ECM
ruzpru 5sme44jg1005
class B cust pn: mc23ce115
115 v 60hz 1a 4000rpm 1/20 hp
ccw 06-27-96 1lq - usa

it is out of balance. if i spin the fan it turns off center and returns to the same point.

any source or replacement would be helpful. thanks


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Probably has something to do with a Controls company owning them.


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

just a thought from my real work, could i rebalance the fan? a little dab of super glue to the side opposite the heavy spot? 
anyone need camshaft selection let me know.:thumbsup:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

biggerjim said:


> could i rebalance the fan? a little dab of super glue to the side opposite the heavy spot?


For dynamic balance you need a strobe light synchronized to the wobble.
General Radio used to make one of these lights.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

biggerjim said:


> just a thought from my real work, could i rebalance the fan? a little dab of super glue to the side opposite the heavy spot?
> anyone need camshaft selection let me know.:thumbsup:


Not really.


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

since the issue is a bad bearing, balancing doesn't sound helpful does it? back to the other folk's original question; what high efficiency furnace is not a preprogrammed timebomb like a Carrier?


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## biggerjim (Sep 15, 2009)

to tie up this thread... i had the venter motor replaced. $600 for the part, $120 to install it. very professionally done in about 1/2 an hour. a thorough inspection found the rest of the unit in superb condition. thank you all for your thoughts and information.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Don't worry.

The rest of the invoice is in the mail.:thumbsup:


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