# Automakers: Stop Repairing Cars



## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

If you own a '14 or '15 vehicle, beware of power loss to PCM ie. a dead battery. If that happens, you have to reflash PCM. Now isn't that bullcrap? Another way of fleecing the public.:furious:


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## whippinpost (Apr 22, 2015)

If you own a GM vehicle, it is anything but "intellectual" property. This is a perfect example of American capitalism gone bad!


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## TheBobmanNH (Oct 23, 2012)

You guys realize this only applies to tinkering with the ECU, right? They're not trying to prevent you from changing your brakes.

How many of you are playing with the software in your car's computer?


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## Eddie13 (Apr 20, 2015)

There excuse is that if someone messes with the computer it could cause the brakes or steering to fail.

You telling me they let them build cars in which an electrical malfunction could render your breaks and or steering inoperable? I'm not real up on the latest in car computerization.

If thats the case I'd say its them building unsafe cars thats the problem..


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## cjm94 (Sep 25, 2011)

Brainbucket said:


> If you own a '14 or '15 vehicle, beware of power loss to PCM ie. a dead battery. If that happens, you have to reflash PCM. Now isn't that bullcrap? Another way of fleecing the public.:furious:


 No not true your adaptive learn strategy will have to relearn but a dead battery will not blank out any module


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Specifically 17 Usc 1201 (the section of law cited in the article) deals with circumventing of copyright protection systems. Many people are more familiar with this in regards to DVDs. It is programming that prevents the contents of the dvd from being copied. In the case of DVDs it is illegal to defeat the protection system or to sell or manufacture the means to do so. 


I don't see how it would affect anything regarding cars. As far as I know there is no copy prohibition software in use in cars.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Brainbucket said:


> If you own a '14 or '15 vehicle, beware of power loss to PCM ie. a dead battery. If that happens, you have to reflash PCM. Now isn't that bullcrap? Another way of fleecing the public.:furious:


Proms have non-volitile memory. They do not have to remain powered In order to retain their memory. There is no reason the prom should need to be flashed.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TheBobmanNH said:


> You guys realize this only applies to tinkering with the ECU, right? They're not trying to prevent you from changing your brakes.
> 
> How many of you are playing with the software in your car's computer?


You might be surprised at the number of aftermarket companies that do ECM tuning.........


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## Eddie13 (Apr 20, 2015)

103,682 results for "performance chip" in ebay motors, parts and accessories >>> Computer, Chip, Cruise Control..


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

the automakers are working their way towards putting EVERY independent repair shop out of business. this is the way they will do it.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

And let the private sector bypass them. The private sector will always find a way unless it is made illegal. 

If it is made illegal, you can count on me never buying another new car.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

nap said:


> Proms have non-volitile memory. They do not have to remain powered In order to retain their memory. There is no reason the prom should need to be flashed.


Tell that to the ones it happened to. I don't know the brand(s) that it happened to, but I will find out and post it. I was told 14 and 15 ym. I know about proms/calpac/eeprom and such. I do this for a living for 38 years and I flash modules. I do not reprogram other that stock from the original manufacture. Not flamming here but I was taken back when I heard this. Such bullcrap. I remember when my neighbor bought a 12 Dodge truck and was pissed cause he couldn't get it reprogramed cause they were 'locked out'. Since I don't do that, I don't know about that. I can do original programing. Off to find out more.:thumbsup:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

then explain how I can purchase a pcm already programmed?


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Well I found out more. It wasn't a flash but a relearn. Duh. Stupid guy told me wrong. So there it is.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> And let the private sector bypass them. The private sector will always find a way unless it is made illegal.
> 
> If it is made illegal, you can count on me never buying another new car.


they ain't finding a way, when you could need a $150,000 scanner to reset the oil light. or else the car won't run. $150-200 oil changes. 


i ain't buying a new, or even close to new. and i do have the money.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Trust me. If a 12 year old kid was the first one to jailbreak an iphone, you think the car makers can make it so that you can't work on them. 

I have EFI Live on my Duramax and I can change anything on the car that I want to. Granted, its a 2006 but that technology of piggy backing on the factory computer is nothing new.


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## Marqed97 (Mar 19, 2011)

I have the factory Ford Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) software on my laptop out in my garage. The software (and live tech hotline support with daily calibration updates) came with the purchase of their wireless vehicle communication module and cable. Think I paid around $1100 on sale, and the annual subscription for the VCM license is around $600. 

Certainly not peanuts, but way less than I paid for my Snap-On MODIS (and subsequent updates and coverage for foreign models). The Modis is good for general coverage across all models as a scan tool, but since I work primarily on Fords, and do mainly in-depth power train diagnostics, the IDS blows it out of the water. 

I worked for a Ford dealer for a decade, then took a job with my municipality as the lead police fleet mechanic. Mainly for the benefits. But I make more money working on Fords out of my garage than I ever did there. And I charge less than half as much. 

I'm not opposed to people modifying their ecu programming for more horsepower and all that. Shift points, rev limiters, injector mods, air intake and exhaust, no issues. I've done it myself. As long as the safety systems are intact and functional, I could care less. Even that's a grey area for me...as long as someone else's stupidity in disabling certain safety systems doesn't endanger my family and myself on shared public roads, I really don't care what happens to them. 

As far as the automakers ever fully 'locking out' the consumer from modifications, it'll never happen. Someone, somewhere, will figure it out. The demand is too great for all that stuff, and where there's money to be made...yeah. Ford's unofficial position on that is that no matter what they try, it will always be a losing battle. They may deny warranty coverage on modified vehicles, but that's about it.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Marqed97 said:


> As far as the automakers ever fully 'locking out' the consumer from modifications, it'll never happen. Someone, somewhere, will figure it out. The demand is too great for all that stuff, and where there's money to be made...yeah. Ford's unofficial position on that is that no matter what they try, it will always be a losing battle. They may deny warranty coverage on modified vehicles, but that's about it.


I think you are missing the point. If they employ a copyright protection system it is still not illegal to access the copyrighted software and it is not illegal for an individual to bypass the system as long as it is not for financial gain. 



> (a) In General.— Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain—
> (1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, for the first offense; and
> (2) shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense.


but what is important is this:



> (2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
> (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
> (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
> (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


that is who the manufacturers would go after; the companies that produce and sell equipment or information that allows the owner to bypass the protection system.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> you think the car makers can make it so that you can't work on them.
> 
> I have EFI Live on my Duramax and I can change anything on the car that I want to. Granted, its a 2006 but that technology of piggy backing on the factory computer is nothing new.


they will make it SO TOUGH to hack em, that even if someone does, it will cost so much that most everyone will not be able to afford it.


i have an editor program for my 97 S-10. i can and do edit nearly every PID in the computer. that was then, this is now, and the future ....


you guys can believe anything you want. the fact is auto repair is a business. and like any business, they want as large a piece of that pie as they can get. and the auto makers are the ones making the pies.


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## Eddie13 (Apr 20, 2015)

You can throw all the factory computers away and go full standalone nowadays for around $1k, megasquirt open source diy even cheaper if you know your chit and you can program everything like launch control, sequential injection, abs, automatic transmission, variable valve timing etc. The options in those things are boggling. 

I've been eyeballing a VEMS unit myself.. Onboard MAP, 2X EGT's, wideband controller, and total control of injection/ignition in a little box for < $1k..


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Eddie13 said:


> You can throw all the factory computers away and go full standalone nowadays for around $1k, megasquirt open source diy even cheaper if you know your chit and you can program everything like launch control, sequential injection, abs, automatic transmission, variable valve timing etc. The options in those things are boggling.
> 
> I've been eyeballing a VEMS unit myself.. Onboard MAP, 2X EGT's, wideband controller, and total control of injection/ignition in a little box for < $1k..


yes, thats true, though idk about the cost.

but i do know = try to get one of those to pass emissions = YOUR SCREWED. 

thats exactly why i chose to keep and hack the factory computer. i hacked the living crap out of it ! and it still PASSES emissions :laughing: :thumbup:


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## JD367 (Apr 6, 2015)

LOL! That's why I drive Pre-emission vehicles. I don't have to worry about it .


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