# Contractor Nightmare / Tiling



## Rough Rooster (Feb 7, 2015)

Very poor workmanship.
Don't think he has enough expertise to redo this satisfactorily.

Hope you can get problem taken care of.

RR


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## costgeek (Dec 6, 2014)

Agree with the Rooster. This guy's a hack. The 5" tiles in the shower seem to be okay (from what I can see anyway) but that window is a mess!

There are definitely many things wrong here but that huge grout line is the biggest. He should have used unsanded grout on the thin lines and sanded on the fatter ones. I'm wondering if he got lazy and kept using unsanded.

Oh, and I love the sideways tile in the sill...very classy.

If you have someone redo it, make sure they provide a detailed description of the defects that needed to be fixed. You'll want that for court. You may want to get the work done before you have him served so he doesn't have a chance to "fix" it. Any judge will agree you gave him enough chances.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Tiling 101 says any change of plain or where it meets a different material silicone caulking is used.
Sure looks like you have a lot of lipping between the tiles. (not even)


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## Davejss (May 14, 2012)

I'd skip the law suit and just tackle it myself if I were you. Just remove the grout where it contacts the window frame, and replace it with silicone caulk. It will be quicker, easier, less stressfull, and give better results than suing.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Color matched silicone zed caulk where different planes meet as noted, late fete, mapai, all make some. Ron


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

Davejss said:


> I'd skip the law suit and just tackle it myself if I were you. Just remove the grout where it contacts the window frame, and replace it with silicone caulk. It will be quicker, easier, less stressfull, and give better results than suing.


It would be a small claim lawsuit, and frankly, I'm not sure whether I can actually fix it myself. I don't have any experience in tiling, and wouldn't even know where to start.

Either way, I've already decided on the lawsuit. It cost me $1500 to remove a wooden frame and replace it with tile, and he's not getting away with it. I'm not even sure he should be in business at this point.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I am just a novice DIY'er. Done a few tiling jobs. Just finished my friends bathroom. I was feeling a little disappointed on the quality of my workmanship. I am feeling much better about my workmanship after seeing that photo.


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## Jnaas2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Is he licensed, Do you have a written contract, Was a permit pulled if needed in your area, Does he have insurance, Is he bonded, A little late now to ask these questions but do you have proof he did the work


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

He may fundamentally be a handyman who is used to doing lower-end jobs in cheap houses for people who don't know or can't afford better. 

From telephone tag he appears grossly unprofessional. Personally I think people who do that should not be working and should have their licenses revoked, but I doubt there are formal standards about that.

Court may be a hassle but it's not terrible to hold someone's feet to the fire for what they're doing. I would get a good contractor or two to look at the whole project and give you an estimate for fixing any problems and completing the work to what you specced in your original contract. The problem you see here may not be the only one that someone on-site will see. 

Then consider going to small claims court/bonding company/etc... to get that amount, taking the estimate with you. This will obviously be easier if there was a contract and a permit pulled.

Still, especially if the size of the repair is small, a bad review on Angie's list, Yelp, or the like might do more good for your neighbors and is less hassle for you. (Just stick to the facts, be sure not to exaggerate anything because of how frustrating it is). If the only change you need is to pull out a bit of grout and replace it with caulk, a bad review might be a better option.


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

Again, I appreciate the responses I've seen, and it's really pushed me away from even allowing him to come back to my house. That said, there is more to ad to the story.

I sent him an email yesterday, which read as follows:



> This will be the last time I attempt to resolve this issue civilly before taking further action. You have made false promises, and failed to deliver on multiple occasions. I understand you have an injury, but setting up appointments and allowing them to fall through without so much as a phone call is unacceptable. I have even gone so far as to take off a day from work, and again, you failed to deliver. You were paid to complete a quality job, but it was not of good quality. I have had other contractors evaluate pictures of your work, and they have stated that in their opinion, it's "very poor workmanship". The entire project is cracking and has become very uneven. There is cracking along virtually every seam around the window, including some cracking away from the window. I have tried to resolve this issue every way I know how outside of taking legal action, but you have been virtually unresponsive via both, email and telephone. I will be available at approximately 7:00 PM tonight if you would like to discuss this matter via telephone.


Needless to say, he never called me. I attempted to call him at approximately 8:30 PM last night, and he "ended" the call sending me to voicemail. I left a message saying I was giving him the courtesy of a phone call one more time, but now we're pushing it into court. I went this morning and got the paperwork to file a claim, and I'm suing him for the entire amount of the project. In the meantime, I have another contractor coming to look at his work today. The new contractor has numerous good reviews and they're recommended by Home Advisor. (I'm not sure whether that means anything, but it sure does sound better.)

Also, I want to thank _SPS-1_ for his comment in that he's a "novice DIY'er", and my contractor was a "professional with 30 years experience" (his words, not mine), and my contractors work was much worse. Not to take anything away from SPS, but a paid contractor should be doing _much_ better work than any DIY'er.


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## costgeek (Dec 6, 2014)

At least you can use the feedback in this forum to vet the next contractor. If he spots the same issues, good chance he knows what he's doing.


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

Another contractor came in and while not actually laughing about the work, he said the work was laughable. He said it's going to take about three days and cost about $850.


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

Lawsuit filed, we'll see the outcome on 7/23.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

I feel for ya, don't get me wrong....

But you said..." I'm coming to DIY Chatroom because I'm essentially giving up on the fact a contractor can do what I ask them to do, reasonably and reliably."

You do realize most here giving you advice are contractors, right.?


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## costgeek (Dec 6, 2014)

ron45 said:


> You do realize most here giving you advice are contractors, right.?


Don't bite the hand that feeds :laughing:


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

ron45 said:


> You do realize most here giving you advice are contractors, right.?


I do realize that now, and it's appreciated. I was expressing my frustration.

We'll skip to today, 6/17. I have put in phone calls to seven different contractors, most of which don't answer the phone, and none of them, yes, none of them, have responded. As I previously mentioned, good contractors in this area are few and far between. I haven't found one, although my mom in a different county was able to find one that was trustworthy. However, my job is too small for his schedule, which I understand.

That said, I'm still not able to contact the contractor. I've been in touch with a Skip Tracer, whose also stated, "It's extremely difficult to find a con man." The contractor was evicted from his home about a month ago, after being evicted from another home locally in January. I have no idea where he's living, but I've actually reached out to his relatives in hopes that I find one that doesn't like him. I'm still stuck, especially when I've been told the Judge will simply dismiss the case because he was unable to be properly served.

Okay, on to my plan for actually fixing my home. Where can I find a good video on removing and replacing tile? I need from beginning to end because frankly, I have no idea what I'm doing. I ordered the tile today, and will be getting started toward the end of the month. What kind of caulk do I need? Is it okay to use caulk for the entire project? What tools would you suggest using for the project? What goes behind the tile?

As I mentioned, I'm very lost. I appreciate any and all help I can get. I'm sure I can't do any worse than the hack I've already paid.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

xD Lucas said:


> and none of them, yes, none of them, have responded.


What about the guy that quoted you $850 ?

Might have been a good idea to talk to the installer first before ordering the tile. The horizontal tile with the bullnose may have worked better if it were a little taller (i.e in the 2" direction).


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

I can't seem to get anyone to return my call. The contractor that stated $850 won't call me back, which is why I'm going at it alone.

What do you mean the bullnose should be taller? I ordered 6" length 2" height, which looked to be pretty standard.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

We will do our best to help you get this thing going---it's late and I'm to tired to be of any use tonight---tomorrow,I'll research a couple of threads that will help.

Look in the tiling section for long threads---JimF was walked through his first tile bath --lots of details in that one---see you tomorrow--Mike---

Any other member with good links or seggestions--join right in.


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

oh'mike said:


> We will do our best to help you get this thing going---it's late and I'm to tired to be of any use tonight---tomorrow,I'll research a couple of threads that will help.
> 
> Look in the tiling section for long threads---JimF was walked through his first tile bath --lots of details in that one---see you tomorrow--Mike---
> 
> Any other member with good links or seggestions--join right in.


That would be fantastic! I'm not actually starting til the beginning of July because the tile won't be in til after June 29. That said, any and all information I can gather beforehand is great!

I read yesterday that the base window sill should be one solid piece, such as marble block. Is that true?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Jim's Downstairs Bathroom Project - Project Showcase - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum

A solid material for the window sill is always a good idea---most counter top fabricators will cut a scrap of Coriaan or Quartz material for a small fee--avoid natural stone---stone needs sealing and can be a staining problem---


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

xD Lucas said:


> What do you mean the bullnose should be taller? I ordered 6" length 2" height, which looked to be pretty standard.


I mean I don't like all that exposed grout, particularly in a wet area. I would have done it more like the sketch on the right. 2" tile may be standard, but it does not fit your sill requirement very well. Perhaps you can find 6x6 with a bullnose and cut it down (suggestion #1 if you are going to do it yourself -- you need access to a wet saw -- buy a cheap one or rent one) I like Mike's idea about the Quartz material too. 
Don't really like the sill up tight against the window closer and then stuffing caulk around it, but that's a tougher problem. Perhaps re-frame a little and put a 2" length of Quartz vertical, and then another piece of Quartz horizontal, sloped a little to shed water.


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

I appreciate the responses, and SPS, I agree with your drawing. Nice observation!

Also, I noticed much cheaper manual tile cutters at Lowes. Will they work?

What's the best way to get a slight pitch at the lower sill for proper runoff?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm just an amateur DIY'r....but I do better than that....

Here is the recent shower window I just did.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

You can likely use manual tile cutter. Much easier with the wet-saw, particularly if you have something other than a single line cut to do. 

I would do the slope with the thinset.

If you organize your questions and post in the Tiling,Ceramics,Marble section you will get advice from tiling pros.

But I guess even a rookie noticed that one should start with a full tile in the center of window, and have 60% long tiles at either end, rather than ending up with a 1" long tile (turned sideways) along the run. 

Nice work ddawg -- what material did you use for the sill and 3 other sides?


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

sorry for your problem...the contractor should have better business manners...when a customer is not happy for valid reasons...we the contractors should stand fully behind our work...and i mean fully...even if means ripping it out and starting over.... you have been very civil about this..so Iam glad to hear your going to court hope the judge sides with you..but even if he don't .this guy may think twice about his business practices and not treat someone else like he has treated you ....best wishes ben sr..


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

ben's plumbing said:


> ...the contractor should have......


You are being very kind to call him a contractor. That was possibly his first tile job. Possibly the cheapest price jack-of-all-trades on Craiglist. The guy who wanted $850 just to fix it --- that probably was a pro.


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## BT5150 (Nov 1, 2011)

First, sorry to see your mess, in the many homes that I've renovated myself, I've done some minor tile work (usually a tile back splash in a kitchen, etc) but have always left the "real" tile work, especially something like a shower requiring a custom made shower pan to the tile pros and when I say TILE PROS, I mean the ones who do tile work for 100% of their biz, or close to it. I am picky as heck about tile work and although yes, there are those out there who will post the craigslist ads listing 18 different things, from carpentry to installing flooring to tiling who may be quite competent, I've found that the true tile pros are the full timers. 

Now, my take on things is that in ANY contractor situation, it is often VERY hard to find ANYONE willing to come through and fix/redo someone else's mess, whether its an obvious total F-up like your mess, or even something simpler. 

My question then is have you considered tearing it all out (I mean everything, right down to the studs) either yourself or by hiring someone to demo it for you (which shouldn't be too hard to find on craigs etc) and THEN having some of your local true tile pros give you a quote???


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## xD Lucas (Jun 2, 2015)

BT5150 said:


> My question then is have you considered tearing it all out (I mean everything, right down to the studs) either yourself or by hiring someone to demo it for you (which shouldn't be too hard to find on craigs etc) and THEN having some of your local true tile pros give you a quote???


That has definitely come up, but at this point, I'm more willing (and want) to do it myself. I believe it will be a good learning experience. I'm trying to get as much information as I can beforehand, but I think with current technology and yes, even Evan at Lowe's, it's definitely possible, especially for such a small project.

Either way, I still haven't decided on a date to start yet because with my work schedule, it's tough to get enough time to complete it. (It _has_ to be completed within two days. This is the only shower in my home, and while I can take a trip to my girlfriend's house for a shower, it's just inconvenient.)

The question I'm stuck on now is whether I should use caulk or grout, and where. I've always been told to use grout on the flat, but caulk on the angles. What kind of grout do I use? Caulk?


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

xD Lucas said:


> ..... for such a small project


If you are planning on ripping it all out and starting over, working part time on it:

Day 1) - rip out existing, install cementboard
Day 2) - do joints on cementboard (too bad you couldn't squeeze that into day 1)
Day 3) - two coats of Red-Guard
Day 4) - Lay tile
Day 5) - Buy pieces you did not have and complete tile job. Wait for mortar to cure.
Day 6) - Apply grout, wait for it to dry
Day 7) - Apply sealer to grout, wait for it to cure
Day 8) - Take shower in your new shower

The pro wanted 3 days. Not sure if he was quoting replace all, or just minimum repair. Your first shower job is not going to happen in 2. First rule of DIY --- everything takes longer than you expect. But there is a big sense of satisfaction in saying you did it yourself.


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## BT5150 (Nov 1, 2011)

I've been there on the "no shower due to renovation I thought would take a few days and now its going on a month" department and it sounds like you're like me and consider showering daily to be just one of life's basics, so one suggestion I'd have there is asking if you have a gym membership and if so, just shower there. (unless its one of these strip mall gyms popping up these days that don't have a shower!) 

I've been a workout guy since high school, so 20+ years now, but I admit the last 5 years or so I've been slacking (a lot!) with my workouts but have kept my membership going and that really came in handy when I was showerless for what ended up being about a month due to multiple unforeseen complications. (and really, whenever you remodel anything you can just expect that SOMETHING unforeseen will pop up, especially on older homes) Now, if you don't have a gym membership, assuming you live in at least a small metro area, you can probably sign up somewhere for not a whole lot of money and on a month to month contract, so if you're certain that you'd only be using the place to shower, you'd have to pay for at most, 2 months membership, or maybe if you told them you were cancelling the next day just a month, but the gym biz has changed a lot from the old days of yearly contracts and some chains have come in with some ridiculously low rates too. I've seen signs for a few here for $10 a month, not sure if they do month to month but I have a friend who goes to Anytime Fitness, which I think is a national chain and even though they often have the strip mall type locations, they do have at least bathrooms with showers in them and true to their name, you can literally go there ANYTIME and take your shower! Quite honestly, I doubt the franchise owner would mind at all even if you came right out and told them you just need a shower for a while, they'd gladly take the month or two of dues since the business model for many of them is to sign up as many members as possible and hope they DON'T show up very often, so some guy taking a daily shower and not hogging the treadmill is just fine with them! 

I'd REALLY REALLY consider that option because I can tell you from lots of experience that you obviously want to get this done CORRECTLY since you're talking about a wet area and you DO NOT want to end up with a mold problem or any of the other many issues that can come from an improperly constructed shower area. When you limit yourself to two days, even if you're off of work, tell everyone you know to leave you alone for those two days, etc you're kind of painting yourself into a corner where if things don't go just right (as often happens) then you're stressed out to hell, maybe up till 3am doing whatever, trust me I've been there and it sucks! 

As far as your caulk question, first off you can get sanded caulk in the tile dept of any HD, Lowes or tile shop and it comes in many colors matched to whatever brand of grout that store sells, like Lowes I think carries Mapei grout, so they'll have a selection of sanded caulk tubes matched to the Mapei grout colors and you want to use the caulk for sure in any spots where there might be ANY possible movement over time, like where the side and back walls come together in a shower or tub surround, etc. You could probably get away with using a regular silicone bathroom caulk too, but why do that when you can get the sanded, color matched caulk at the same place, they usually keep the sanded caulk in the tile dept, not the paint area like the rest of the caulk. 

I'd still HIGHLY recommend, assuming your budget can cover it, to either now or fairly soon at most, rip that thing out and hire a TRUE TILE PRO to build it correctly for you! As I mentioned, I've done a LOT of rehabbing and a fair amount of tiling and even own a decent wet saw and all that's needed to tile just about any normal bathroom, yet I still leave the wet areas for sure and often the entire bathroom to a true pro. Tiling is not rocket science, but it really is a skill and when you're adding water to that mix, you open up a whole new can of worms if things aren't done just right! Good luck with it!


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