# HPB High Performance Bedding is super



## KUIPORNG

In case you don't know, after using this product for sub-base of paving... I found out this product is super and should really be considered the norm of sub-base in the future, this are the reasoning:

- 1. this product does not require compacting... just lay on the ground (the ground should be compacted) then your pavers... at the thickness approx 4" or more.... no sand and no nothing... and no compacting....

- 2. once you lay the paver on an area... you can walk on the pavers no problem... due to the strength of those 1/4" rocks... not sand which people used in the past...

-3. no multiple subbase maters...different size of rocks... sand... limestone... save on the estimation nightmare... and different delivery charges... and different spots on site to house different materials....

it is a little bit more expensive.. but for the benefits above... you should end up saving on both delivery charges and labour and skills...etc...


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## nap

Ok, since I cannot find any pictures of HPB and limited info in general, maybe you can add some more info.

What is the difference between this and simply crushed and washed limestone of ~4.5 mm diameter?


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## KUIPORNG

*it may be the same but...*



nap said:


> Ok, since I cannot find any pictures of HPB and limited info in general, maybe you can add some more info.
> 
> What is the difference between this and simply crushed and washed limestone of ~4.5 mm diameter?


It may be the same but I can descript the physical appearance of the HPB then you can judge:

- it compose of a fix size rocks/limestones particles, either 1/4" or 3/8", no dust.... all the same size.
- this guy is flessible enough so it can be used for screening... and strong enough to hold pavers without slipping like sand and absolutely do not need compacting to achieve that.... I don't know the physics why it can behave like that... but the fact is it behaves like that....

does that answer your question? as I am not a professional landscaper... I can only answer you from a consumer point of view who does not know all the terminology....


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## nap

KUIPORNG said:


> It may be the same but I can descript the physical appearance of the HPB then you can judge:
> 
> - it compose of a fix size rocks/limestones particles, either 1/4" or 3/8", no dust.... all the same size.
> - this guy is flessible enough so it can be used for screening... and strong enough to hold pavers without slipping like sand and absolutely do not need compacting to achieve that.... I don't know the physics why it can behave like that... but the fact is it behaves like that....
> 
> does that answer your question? as I am not a professional landscaper... I can only answer you from a consumer point of view who does not know all the terminology....


thanks. 

So, what it sounds like to me is that all it really is is crushed and washed limestone of a particular small size. Crushed stone has stability because of the rough angular surfaces. In contrast, pea gravel is round and smooth so it settles a great amount until it reaches a point that all the larger open spaces are filled. Even then, when it is walked on or such, the stones will easily slide past one another and move out of the way causing an irregular surface.

Limestone , due to the rough angular sides, does not slide well against another piece of the same material so even when not manually compacted, it reaches of natural point of settling and self support that is quite sturdy. When walked upon, the great amount of friction will cause it to be more supportive than the pea gravel and will not push out of the way as easily.

The part that maked it's use more difficult is;

it is more slightly more difficult to level due to that same friction and its size. 

I have seen on one of the building shows on TV where a drive was made using such material but it was compacted as well. Then it was soaked with a hot bitumen mixture. The installer claimed it was better than asphalt due to the high stone (of this particular style) content.

stone of this size has a great amount of use. Can't say I have ever seen it used as a base for pavers but it does sound as if it would work well.


I, as well, am merely a consumer but have a bit of construction experience in my life.


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## KUIPORNG

*thanks*

Thanks for covering the physics part of this topics.... and I think you are very close to if not already hit the target of the physics of this matter.

yes, screening may be a little bit more difficult than sand, in my case, it does requires two people holding a horizontal wood bar as you are right it is heavy but this can only be done once for a very large area. and the result is very flat , take may be a couple of minutes to screen an area which takes you hours to lay the pavers...

the heavy nature of screening has a very important benefit also: once you screen you don't need to worry about the surface got disturbed by wind/rain..etc. as long as no human/dogs/etc. walk on it... like in my case, I screen 2,3 days ago and can still lay pavers after that.... no problem....

also the heavy nature of screening also allow you to lay the paver, and use plastic hammer to fine tune its levelling at the outer courses no problem, as the outer course provide more flessibility because HPB can move a little bit... the inner courses are all firm and steady and cannot be change but that's why you can walk on those after laying... I didn't do sand before, but could think it will be a problem if you hammer the pavers on sand as they are kind of too flexible for that ....


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> Thanks for covering the physics part of this topics.... and I think you are very close to if not already hit the target of the physics of this matter.
> 
> yes, screening may be a little bit more difficult than sand, in my case, it does requires two people holding a horizontal wood bar as you are right it is heavy but this can only be done once for a very large area. and the result is very flat , take may be a couple of minutes to screen an area which takes you hours to lay the pavers...
> 
> the heavy nature of screening has a very important benefit also: once you screen you don't need to worry about the surface got disturbed by wind/rain..etc. as long as no human/dogs/etc. walk on it... like in my case, I screen 2,3 days ago and can still lay pavers after that.... no problem....
> 
> also the heavy nature of screening also allow you to lay the paver, and use plastic hammer to fine tune its levelling at the outer courses no problem, as the outer course provide more flessibility because HPB can move a little bit... the inner courses are all firm and steady and cannot be change but that's why you can walk on those after laying... I didn't do sand before, but could think it will be a problem if you hammer the pavers on sand as they are kind of too flexible for that ....


 
Good information in that thread.
I had bought the HBP but also bought with it some screening. did not know this is not needed. so now I am stuck with 2 tons of screening that I do not know what to do with. can I still use it on top of the HBP, I have been told I cannot since it might sip in between the HBP gravel and unlevel the patio in the future. 

I am currently trying to level the HBP and I do find it hard to do so, any tips on how this can be done easily?

Thanks


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## KUIPORNG

*Glad to here you are on the HPB boat*

Yes it is a great product.... oK...

1. I don't think you should use your regular (probably limestone) screening on HPB. because this may defeat HPB functionalities/physics...etc... one I know is HPB provide excellant water drainage...i.e. no water will remain on the surface to facilate weed growing... once you add screening...this may not be the case anymore.... and may be other side effect like you describe.... for whatever screening you have... you can use it in some other isolated project....

2. You are right about screening is more difficult... but it is not un handleable either... do this: use a 1 by 6 deck wook board... cut a few peices with different length, one is say 8' , one is say 6', and one say 3'...etc. at both end, cut a paver height square to facilate screening.... use these wood bars to screen... it will work very well... for sure not as easy as sand... but it will work very well.. and it offer advantage which sand cannot be... like once you screened, it won't be moved by wind/rain...etc... as the HPB is heavy and you can lay your bricks in many days... as long as no one/animals walk on it... I didn't try other ways of screening... this is the way work for me ... other ways may not work due to the heavy nature of the HPB....

enjoy your patio project...


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> Yes it is a great product.... oK...
> 
> 1. I don't think you should use your regular (probably limestone) screening on HPB. because this may defeat HPB functionalities/physics...etc... one I know is HPB provide excellant water drainage...i.e. no water will remain on the surface to facilate weed growing... once you add screening...this may not be the case anymore.... and may be other side effect like you describe.... for whatever screening you have... you can use it in some other isolated project....
> 
> 2. You are right about screening is more difficult... but it is not un handleable either... do this: use a 1 by 6 deck wook board... cut a few peices with different length, one is say 8' , one is say 6', and one say 3'...etc. at both end, cut a paver height square to facilate screening.... use these wood bars to screen... it will work very well... for sure not as easy as sand... but it will work very well.. and it offer advantage which sand cannot be... like once you screened, it won't be moved by wind/rain...etc... as the HPB is heavy and you can lay your bricks in many days... as long as no one/animals walk on it... I didn't try other ways of screening... this is the way work for me ... other ways may not work due to the heavy nature of the HPB....
> 
> enjoy your patio project...


Thanks for the tip.. I am not sure however I understand your explanation.
why do you need differet lenght of these wood planks ... is it to create a slope

Aso what did you use for your edges? The guy at beaver valley told me to use plastic edging.. and hammer the spikes into the HPB? will this hold with time? HPB gravel won't move around once done?

Thanks for all your help and tips..


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## KUIPORNG

*no problem*

I am more happy to help, this is part of the fun of DIY. Here it goes:

different length of wood piece is for you to set up different size of screening area... too long won't fit some time... of course the longer the better if it fits because you will end up have a big screened area done in shortest time.... small piece is useful in areas which hardly fit... you use two side either real pavers or temporary 2x4 as support for the screening wood bar... put the level on the bar to make sure that is the slope you want... then screening by sliding the screen wood along the supports on the two sides.... if you use long screen wood bar, you need two people as they are heavy....

yes I used the cheapest plastic wood edge (nake name T-bone) somthing like $7 per piece in Beaver Valley... and spike it to the HPB like what you were told... for me... it is ok because I used quite big size pavers somthing like 12" by 6" as the edging caurse... they hardly moved... the plastic edging is more than adequate.... but you need to think about what do you put on top of the the trench where you hammer the edging plastic, I put small river rocks ($6 per bag) which is easy to do and looks quite nice. 

I assume you will use quality pavers rather than those cheap ones which most people used which are relatively small... as DIYers normally use better materials,, the hat they spent their effort anyway, why save a few bucks for an not so nice job... if you used those small pieces... it does not stand as firm as the big edge course I suppose....

anyway.... I think I have may be a few more weeks to go then I can post some pictures....

good luck to your project....


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> I am more happy to help, this is part of the fun of DIY. Here it goes:
> 
> different length of wood piece is for you to set up different size of screening area... too long won't fit some time... of course the longer the better if it fits because you will end up have a big screened area done in shortest time.... small piece is useful in areas which hardly fit... you use two side either real pavers or temporary 2x4 as support for the screening wood bar... put the level on the bar to make sure that is the slope you want... then screening by sliding the screen wood along the supports on the two sides.... if you use long screen wood bar, you need two people as they are heavy....
> 
> yes I used the cheapest plastic wood edge (nake name T-bone) somthing like $7 per piece in Beaver Valley... and spike it to the HPB like what you were told... for me... it is ok because I used quite big size pavers somthing like 12" by 6" as the edging caurse... they hardly moved... the plastic edging is more than adequate.... but you need to think about what do you put on top of the the trench where you hammer the edging plastic, I put small river rocks ($6 per bag) which is easy to do and looks quite nice.
> 
> I assume you will use quality pavers rather than those cheap ones which most people used which are relatively small... as DIYers normally use better materials,, the hat they spent their effort anyway, why save a few bucks for an not so nice job... if you used those small pieces... it does not stand as firm as the big edge course I suppose....
> 
> anyway.... I think I have may be a few more weeks to go then I can post some pictures....
> 
> good luck to your project....


 
Thanks for your reply.

I am using the Mega bergerac from permacon.. the edges are the D size which is beleive it or not.. 14x14 .. huge slab.. you are right.. I do not think these will go anywhere.

I will take your advise and use those pieces of wood.. it sounds like a great idea.

I am struggling with thye colours now.. the ones I ordeed look nothing like the one I received. I know the colour could not match exactly, but I ordered beige and I received grey.. !!! 

In any case, this is my first time with such a big project and I do agree a DIYer should use better materials since he is savign on the labor. this is exactly what I am doing.

Thanks for the tips.. i look forward to seeing your pictures.. wll try to post some myself once I am done.

Thanks for everything.


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## KUIPORNG

*nice to hear things are moving at your part*

Here goes some tips which you may find it useful:

- How to measure for cutting: use a transparent plastic sheet (those use in projector)... place the sheet on the area you need to cut stones, put dot on the points requires cutting, than transfer those markings on the pavers and use crayon to mark on the pavers.... this is the easiest and most accurate rate of measure and cut.

- How to do cutting: I hope you have a better cutter than me, I am using the 7" table wet saw, take down everything with bare saw, I meant those fence, protection shield...etc.... and it cuts quite good.... but would be better if I could have a better saw.

- How to do grading... We slope all our water to the corner of the backyard which we install a drain vent and direct the water through underground pipe to our backyard doorway... which then output to the street drain vent like the normal course.... if you can do that it would be very nice... because try to slope the whole area to direct water to the outside door may be difficult.... underground piple and drain vent is a very nice and practical design making your floor grading flat and professional. Well if you only do a small area rectangular shape, then this may not apply to you. We doing curve shapes here or there of 600 sq. ft... cover 2/3 of the backyard...

- How to do screening... spend your time to screen a good large area before laying the stones, it will save you time and effort when laying... unlike the traditional materials, HPB allow you to step on the stones immediately after laying, so you can step on the laid course to lay stones if necessary...

Good luck... It is a tough job, and I hope you won't give up...


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> Here goes some tips which you may find it useful:
> 
> - How to measure for cutting: use a transparent plastic sheet (those use in projector)... place the sheet on the area you need to cut stones, put dot on the points requires cutting, than transfer those markings on the pavers and use crayon to mark on the pavers.... this is the easiest and most accurate rate of measure and cut.
> 
> - How to do cutting: I hope you have a better cutter than me, I am using the 7" table wet saw, take down everything with bare saw, I meant those fence, protection shield...etc.... and it cuts quite good.... but would be better if I could have a better saw.
> 
> - How to do grading... We slope all our water to the corner of the backyard which we install a drain vent and direct the water through underground pipe to our backyard doorway... which then output to the street drain vent like the normal course.... if you can do that it would be very nice... because try to slope the whole area to direct water to the outside door may be difficult.... underground piple and drain vent is a very nice and practical design making your floor grading flat and professional. Well if you only do a small area rectangular shape, then this may not apply to you. We doing curve shapes here or there of 600 sq. ft... cover 2/3 of the backyard...
> 
> - How to do screening... spend your time to screen a good large area before laying the stones, it will save you time and effort when laying... unlike the traditional materials, HPB allow you to step on the stones immediately after laying, so you can step on the laid course to lay stones if necessary...
> 
> Good luck... It is a tough job, and I hope you won't give up...


 
Thanks for the tips.
I have a large yard and the whole thing is slopped away from the house to the green belt behind my house.. I am trying to maintain the same grading.. I know it is tough.. especially when my kids keep stepping on the leveling strings.. over and over again.. knocking the stakes off 

I haven't started cutting yet.. but I saw a manual cuter that I have tried at Home depot.. it is like a guillotine .. not sure if you have ever seen it or not.. but I am not comfortable with using gas powered cutters.. they are heavy... and the smallest mistake would cost you a finger. a table saw is also another option I am looking at.. but I found the manual cutter very easy to use.

I am screening as I go.. since I need to lay down the stones starting at the back of the house .. not muich room there to level a big area without stepping on it.. but once I have some space to step on, I will definitely take your advise.. 

Great tip regarding the plastic sheet.. never thought about it.. 

I am waiting for you to post some pictures so I can see the results of your hard work 

Thanks again ...


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## la15ota

*Mega Bergerac*

Hey there rabih, noticed that your using the Mega Bergerac, how is that going for you? I'm actually planning on using the Mega Arbel from Belgard (I guess they are the manufacturer for USA).
We're about to order paver materials...gulp.


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## rabih_00

la15ota said:


> Hey there rabih, noticed that your using the Mega Bergerac, how is that going for you? I'm actually planning on using the Mega Arbel from Belgard (I guess they are the manufacturer for USA).
> We're about to order paver materials...gulp.


it is Darn heavy .. but the good thing is once it is layed down, it won't move .. I actually picked the design from permacon.com, and they called for that type of stones, so I am going to stcik with the plan. 
it is an expensive stone though, compared to the others, but I think it is worth it on the long run.

and If you have read that thread, try to use the PB instead of the regular method .. I think once you get the hang of it, it is easier.

Good luck with your project


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## KUIPORNG

*Great and...*



rabih_00 said:


> Thanks for the tips.
> I have a large yard and the whole thing is slopped away from the house to the green belt behind my house.. I am trying to maintain the same grading.. I know it is tough.. especially when my kids keep stepping on the leveling strings.. over and over again.. knocking the stakes off
> 
> I haven't started cutting yet.. but I saw a manual cuter that I have tried at Home depot.. it is like a guillotine .. not sure if you have ever seen it or not.. but I am not comfortable with using gas powered cutters.. they are heavy... and the smallest mistake would cost you a finger. a table saw is also another option I am looking at.. but I found the manual cutter very easy to use.
> 
> I am screening as I go.. since I need to lay down the stones starting at the back of the house .. not muich room there to level a big area without stepping on it.. but once I have some space to step on, I will definitely take your advise..
> 
> Great tip regarding the plastic sheet.. never thought about it..
> 
> I am waiting for you to post some pictures so I can see the results of your hard work
> 
> Thanks again ...


Hi there,

Sorry, my job is computer related, so used to point forms, here it goes:

1. your sloping situation is quite similar to our case... sloping outward from houses.. in fact I think this is kind of the norm... otherwise, everyone got wet basement... but the key is: you need to know how your water eventually go... there should be a way to exit to the outside street drain vent.... otherwise all water is at the backyard outmost edge and no where to go... it won't solve the "water exiting" issue... I suspect your case is similar to ours that the water is being passed between houses on the side and to the outside.... if this is the case, although you think your slope all outward from the house, there is really one exception to make this water movement possible... i.e. the area between houses the point from outside backyard to your house, it slope reverse.... if this is the case... you need a vent and underground pipe there. and you can setup the pipe behind a retain wall flower bed like us... gee... I may need to post you some pictures to explain.... ok... will try to find my damn digitial camera....

2. I never heard of a manual stone cutting device...except the big expensive chopper... I really suspect one will work consider stone is no easy matter.... see pavingexpert.com to see all possible cutting methods.... I didn't use gas cutter either same reasons as yours... I use only electric... they are slower but work...


anyway... need to go to meeting... talk later...

now meeting finished... 

3. screening as you goes seems the way to go for HPB and we do the same ... and slopping following existing ground seems also a good idea and we do the same except for point 1. mentioned.... in fact... I saw contractors use retain wall system to raise the patio to form a level platform, this method will work and requires less measuring work... but looks not as nice in my opinion.... they method you are attempting is more time consuming but have a better look and feel in my opinion....

4. I just google the stones you are using... good choice... it is kind if antique like... which I highly supported for reasons: great for DIYers as you don't need perfect cutting... broken edge here or there does not affect the overall looking. well your pavers is 3"somthing thick.... Mine is 2 3/4" thick which is already quite thick... yours even thicker... you certainly need to think ahead on how you handle the cutting... if you are like me: doing curving everywhere... you are going to be like me: have a hell of cutting time.... At this stage I can tell you: the cutting job is more difficult and time consuming comparing to the laying job... you can lay a large area in quite a short time... but you cannot do a lot of cutting in a short time... you can only cut so many stones at certain fix rate... this is no difference to contractors... that is why they use the bulk cutting techniques most of them which will cut the most but won't get the best result, how they do it is they lay the stones first without any concern to the outline edge shape... then they use the monster cutter to cut the stones right along they have lay by slowing moving one to next then they lay outside course on the cutted shape... This method is super fast, can finish in minutes... the problem is you are going to have small cutted pieces here or there... and if you pay attention... most contracted jobs have small pieces here or there.... I am so poud that in my project, I have no one single small piece in the 600sq. ft area... That no contractor will do for you because it cause them a big deal of money making time... so DIY has this advantage. But then most people who wouldn't careless about this.... but a project with no small pieces will last longer in theory because small pieces have higher potential of loosing up and affecting the integrity of all the stones....

5. Sounds like you are like me use strings and sticks to setup for digging.... this method is very good... but my neighbour and his contractor friend kind of laugh at me saying that was totally unnecessary and saying I was digging too deep.... gee... I am so glad I ignore their comment.... digging a right slope gives you so much advantageous: 1. as water flow underneath the HPB can follow the same way it flow...2. it makes your HPB laying thickness consistance..... I have a few low traffic spots which I didn't follow the minimum depth requirement due to lazy digging.... hopefully... those area won't have weed in the future... 




Again Good lucks....


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Sorry, my job is computer related, so used to point forms, here it goes:
> 
> 1. your sloping situation is quite similar to our case... sloping outward from houses.. in fact I think this is kind of the norm... otherwise, everyone got wet basement... but the key is: you need to know how your water eventually go... there should be a way to exit to the outside street drain vent.... otherwise all water is at the backyard outmost edge and no where to go... it won't solve the "water exiting" issue... I suspect your case is similar to ours that the water is being passed between houses on the side and to the outside.... if this is the case, although you think your slope all outward from the house, there is really one exception to make this water movement possible... i.e. the area between houses the point from outside backyard to your house, it slope reverse.... if this is the case... you need a vent and underground pipe there. and you can setup the pipe behind a retain wall flower bed like us... gee... I may need to post you some pictures to explain.... ok... will try to find my damn digitial camera....
> 
> 2. I never heard of a manual stone cutting device...except the big expensive chopper... I really suspect one will work consider stone is no easy matter.... see pavingexpert.com to see all possible cutting methods.... I didn't use gas cutter either same reasons as yours... I use only electric... they are slower but work...
> 
> 
> anyway... need to go to meeting... talk later...
> 
> now meeting finished...
> 
> 3. screening as you goes seems the way to go for HPB and we do the same ... and slopping following existing ground seems also a good idea and we do the same except for point 1. mentioned.... in fact... I saw contractors use retain wall system to raise the patio to form a level platform, this method will work and requires less measuring work... but looks not as nice in my opinion.... they method you are attempting is more time consuming but have a better look and feel in my opinion....
> 
> 4. I just google the stones you are using... good choice... it is kind if antique like... which I highly supported for reasons: great for DIYers as you don't need perfect cutting... broken edge here or there does not affect the overall looking. well your pavers is 3"somthing thick.... Mine is 2 3/4" thick which is already quite thick... yours even thicker... you certainly need to think ahead on how you handle the cutting... if you are like me: doing curving everywhere... you are going to be like me: have a hell of cutting time.... At this stage I can tell you: the cutting job is more difficult and time consuming comparing to the laying job... you can lay a large area in quite a short time... but you cannot do a lot of cutting in a short time... you can only cut so many stones at certain fix rate... this is no difference to contractors... that is why they use the bulk cutting techniques most of them which will cut the most but won't get the best result, how they do it is they lay the stones first without any concern to the outline edge shape... then they use the monster cutter to cut the stones right along they have lay by slowing moving one to next then they lay outside course on the cutted shape... This method is super fast, can finish in minutes... the problem is you are going to have small cutted pieces here or there... and if you pay attention... most contracted jobs have small pieces here or there.... I am so poud that in my project, I have no one single small piece in the 600sq. ft area... That no contractor will do for you because it cause them a big deal of money making time... so DIY has this advantage. But then most people who wouldn't careless about this.... but a project with no small pieces will last longer in theory because small pieces have higher potential of loosing up and affecting the integrity of all the stones....
> 
> 5. Sounds like you are like me use strings and sticks to setup for digging.... this method is very good... but my neighbour and his contractor friend kind of laugh at me saying that was totally unnecessary and saying I was digging too deep.... gee... I am so glad I ignore their comment.... digging a right slope gives you so much advantageous: 1. as water flow underneath the HPB can follow the same way it flow...2. it makes your HPB laying thickness consistance..... I have a few low traffic spots which I didn't follow the minimum depth requirement due to lazy digging.... hopefully... those area won't have weed in the future...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again Good lucks....


 
computer related?? me too.. what is it that you do?

take a look at this : http://www.pavingexpert.com/cutting.htm and scroll down to bock and slab splitter.. i guess this is the technical term they use ... but I think this is what I am going to use.. easer.. safer and cleaner, however, maybe time consuming.. but I'd rather keep my fingers 

You are right about slopping.. It is slopped to the side of the house.. between me and my neighbour.. so I will maintain the same level.. it eventually goes out to the street.. however .. if you look at the back yard.. it is also slopped towards the greenbelt.. so I am assuming..the slope between the 2 houses is maintained even within the greenbelt.. (which is 20 meters thick) .. because you are right.. water will stand still if no draignage is provided.. (maybe that explains the amount of mosquitoes we get in our area).


I used the mega bergerac since I thought this is the design from permacon and it looks like there isn't much cutting.. so I used the same materials as recommended. I have however made some adjustment to the design so not sure how it will go once implemented.

go to www.permacon.ca and under inspirational, you will find a PDF file called ideas. the design I've chosen is called expanse or something 
the first one in the list.

Let me know if you have any comments about it.

Thanks


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## KUIPORNG

*you must be talking about renting then...*



rabih_00 said:


> computer related?? me too.. what is it that you do?
> 
> take a look at this : http://www.pavingexpert.com/cutting.htm and scroll down to bock and slab splitter.. i guess this is the technical term they use ... but I think this is what I am going to use.. easer.. safer and cleaner, however, maybe time consuming.. but I'd rather keep my fingers
> 
> You are right about slopping.. It is slopped to the side of the house.. between me and my neighbour.. so I will maintain the same level.. it eventually goes out to the street.. however .. if you look at the back yard.. it is also slopped towards the greenbelt.. so I am assuming..the slope between the 2 houses is maintained even within the greenbelt.. (which is 20 meters thick) .. because you are right.. water will stand still if no draignage is provided.. (maybe that explains the amount of mosquitoes we get in our area).
> 
> 
> I used the mega bergerac since I thought this is the design from permacon and it looks like there isn't much cutting.. so I used the same materials as recommended. I have however made some adjustment to the design so not sure how it will go once implemented.
> 
> go to www.permacon.ca and under inspirational, you will find a PDF file called ideas. the design I've chosen is called expanse or something
> the first one in the list.
> 
> Let me know if you have any comments about it.
> 
> Thanks


 
I think you are talking about renting the splitter, right? this guy is real expensive and I don't think HD sell them anyway.... or they do sell cheap one nowadays.... if so I would want to place a visit also becuase I can use it for my next year front yard/drive way project...

Orignially, I have the same idea of following the same ground slope to let water run away following how it does it before the paving project.... then I lay as I go... but when it comes to the part where I need to change the slope to follow the water exiting route... I laid a little bit... the result is real trouble... because all of a sudden the surface is not flat no more... even it is the only wave, but this wave make the installation looks so unprofessional and also make all the area in that part unusable because of this sharp change of grade... then that morning I sit down and think about what to do able it.... then bingo ... this idea comes up: setup a flower bet along side and use it as retaining walls and setup two steps of stairs.... then make all water goes to the end of yard using a flat surface grade away from house and put a drain there and have a drain piple install behind the flower bed and direct the water back to the exiting door... man... this is one of the brilliant idea I ever come up with in my life... and the result is amasing... everyone say it is professional when they see the drain vent and the way water leaving our yard.... I am not sure if you need to do somthing similar.... but making patio surface up and down is definitely not a good idea... wait till you see it... that is why contractors, the hat, just retain wall it up a flat/level surface to avoid all these headaches...

Also, electric cutting pavers is less scarer than people usually think... in fact, in my opinion, it is safer than using wood circular,table,miter saw for cutting wood, base on my experience, I do think wet cutting is easier/safter though due to the amount of dusts in air for dry cutting....

as per what computer related job I was doing... I am a database administrator.... my interests though is in renovation....


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> I think you are talking about renting the splitter, right? this guy is real expensive and I don't think HD sell them anyway.... or they do sell cheap one nowadays.... if so I would want to place a visit also becuase I can use it for my next year front yard/drive way project...
> 
> Orignially, I have the same idea of following the same ground slope to let water run away following how it does it before the paving project.... then I lay as I go... but when it comes to the part where I need to change the slope to follow the water exiting route... I laid a little bit... the result is real trouble... because all of a sudden the surface is not flat no more... even it is the only wave, but this wave make the installation looks so unprofessional and also make all the area in that part unusable because of this sharp change of grade... then that morning I sit down and think about what to do able it.... then bingo ... this idea comes up: setup a flower bet along side and use it as retaining walls and setup two steps of stairs.... then make all water goes to the end of yard using a flat surface grade away from house and put a drain there and have a drain piple install behind the flower bed and direct the water back to the exiting door... man... this is one of the brilliant idea I ever come up with in my life... and the result is amasing... everyone say it is professional when they see the drain vent and the way water leaving our yard.... I am not sure if you need to do somthing similar.... but making patio surface up and down is definitely not a good idea... wait till you see it... that is why contractors, the hat, just retain wall it up a flat/level surface to avoid all these headaches...


 
I think I know what you mean, and now that you mentioned this.. the side of the house is pretty steap, you can actually see it slopping down on the side.. oh boy.. here's another challenge.. one more than I needed.I am having a flower bed on the side.. but not a raised one.. since if I maintain a flat surface on the side, it will be higher than what the lawn is now..
Mmm.. well, I guess a raised flower bed wouldn't be so bad after all .. 

I think they told me 21 $ per day for the splitter,.. I need to confirm that though. he said this is the cheapest way of doing it. (another reason why I will be using it)


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## KUIPORNG

*here goes the pictures*

http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/kuiporng/backyard patio/

raised flower bed with retaining wall blocks (allan block I used) is easier than people thought for building... I built mine and the entry stairs in one week (after and before work time).

$21 per day... this is cheap and good deal... I should have done that... I thought it is much more expensive as they charge wet saw for $71 per day.... I could have save myself a lot of effort... gee.... you beat me on this one....


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/kuiporng/backyard patio/
> 
> raised flower bed with retaining wall blocks (allan block I used) is easier than people thought for building... I built mine and the entry stairs in one week (after and before work time).
> 
> $21 per day... this is cheap and good deal... I should have done that... I thought it is much more expensive as they charge wet saw for $71 per day.... I could have save myself a lot of effort... gee.... you beat me on this one....


 
waw.. pretty nice stuff you are doing there. I am not close to that stage. and now being delayed more.

I have few questions if you do not mind:

- Did you dig for the steps and how much? 
- how wide and high is each step?
- why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?
- did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?
- did you rent the water saw?
- did you build the flower bed before the patio?

Now to answer your comment about the splitter, I am not sure where you are located, but HD offers the splitter in my area for 21 $, I am in Ontario, canada.

I will however still need a saw since I am planning to keep the diamond in the middle.

more bad news for me is that I received a call from beaver valley and more delays on the shipment of the stones.. so I am still waiting, mabe I can plan the flower bed meanwhile. 

I hope you do not mind the mass questions here, but I'd rather ask someone who has done it before then just ask HD associate 

Thanks for all your help.


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## KUIPORNG

*my pleasure to answer your questions, part of the fun*

as I said before...here it goes:

- Did you dig for the steps and how much? As I have two stairs, one for the entry, one for the home exit to patio, not sure which one you asked... but they are kind of similar....: You need to build from bottom up... the first step is the most important and most time consuming... you need to dig a trench for the first step. the trench should be deep enough for the lowest block to underneath the finished ground a little bit as well as have 6" of HPB below it. Your first trench does not need to be from the end to end though... this is difficult to explain, but go to allanblock.com and read their installation vedio, I learnt it from there... After the first steps, the other steps are piece of cakes... don't worry about the trench you dig being too ugly, it will looks nice and flat once you put stuff (HPB) on it...

how wide and high is each step?

- min width is 1 ft. but the wider the better. High is 6". try find a retaining blocks with cicular shape cap. I used Allan block and they don't have and make my cutting extremely difficult because they are 4" thick... 

- why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?

two reasons, 1. no water going into home by any chance, 2. saving on material and don't need to make the platform larger... as you know, the more steps you have, the larger the base you have to build, which may waste you more useful patio space. the setup I have now is good... My wife didn't complain about that aspect... believe me... she is picky...

did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?

- Absolutely not... don't do that... if you build on top of patio.. stairs sturture can fail, and fall apart... the key is the first step (lowest one) has to be embedded underground a bit to substain the structure... as you are not using any concrete cement here all base on interlock... (excepting cementing the cap pieces). So build the stair first before laying the patios... but you can lay some patios first close to the stairs so that you can get a better idea in terms of measuring height/width etc. where the stairs has to be start as the first step (lowest step) must be above the patio surface approx 6" or less... for professional look...

did you rent the water saw?

no, got both new from Ebay, approx $40 bucks each include everything... can't beat Ebay on some of the stuff.

did you build the flower bed before the patio?

You need to build the flower bed before the patio against them, but you can lay patio on other parts of the yard not touching them and that was how we did it...

Did you finished digging... for us this is really at least 30% of the job....and you mentioned very little about this, I hope you didn't skip this part. 

Good lucks...


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> as I said before...here it goes:
> 
> - Did you dig for the steps and how much? As I have two stairs, one for the entry, one for the home exit to patio, not sure which one you asked... but they are kind of similar....: You need to build from bottom up... the first step is the most important and most time consuming... you need to dig a trench for the first step. the trench should be deep enough for the lowest block to underneath the finished ground a little bit as well as have 6" of HPB below it. Your first trench does not need to be from the end to end though... this is difficult to explain, but go to allanblock.com and read their installation vedio, I learnt it from there... After the first steps, the other steps are piece of cakes... don't worry about the trench you dig being too ugly, it will looks nice and flat once you put stuff (HPB) on it...
> 
> how wide and high is each step?
> 
> - min width is 1 ft. but the wider the better. High is 6". try find a retaining blocks with cicular shape cap. I used Allan block and they don't have and make my cutting extremely difficult because they are 4" thick...
> 
> - why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?
> 
> two reasons, 1. no water going into home by any chance, 2. saving on material and don't need to make the platform larger... as you know, the more steps you have, the larger the base you have to build, which may waste you more useful patio space. the setup I have now is good... My wife didn't complain about that aspect... believe me... she is picky...
> 
> did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?
> 
> - Absolutely not... don't do that... if you build on top of patio.. stairs sturture can fail, and fall apart... the key is the first step (lowest one) has to be embedded underground a bit to substain the structure... as you are not using any concrete cement here all base on interlock... (excepting cementing the cap pieces). So build the stair first before laying the patios... but you can lay some patios first close to the stairs so that you can get a better idea in terms of measuring height/width etc. where the stairs has to be start as the first step (lowest step) must be above the patio surface approx 6" or less... for professional look...
> 
> did you rent the water saw?
> 
> no, got both new from Ebay, approx $40 bucks each include everything... can't beat Ebay on some of the stuff.
> 
> did you build the flower bed before the patio?
> 
> You need to build the flower bed before the patio against them, but you can lay patio on other parts of the yard not touching them and that was how we did it...
> 
> Did you finished digging... for us this is really at least 30% of the job....and you mentioned very little about this, I hope you didn't skip this part.
> 
> Good lucks...


lol ..I surely did not skip digging.
I got a bobcat to do the digging for me.. as I know this will take too long .. and we are already in Mid august .. and it is getting colder .. so the window I had was small and Idid not want to waste time . (this is the reasno I give for everyone, the true reason is that I am lazy there.. I just said it).

The problem I had with the bobcat is that we had a rainfall the night before.. and it was all muddy.. so it wasn't really dug as good as I wanted it to be.. and it left deep trenches everywhere it went.. so I am repairing those now..

the are is already all dug out including the steps area.. so I am assuming no need to dig deeper for the steps, i can just lay down the blocks to the height required, back fill with HPB put the pavers and the caps on and statr building the steps. I think I am getting ovewhelmed with this.. I better have a plan so not to mess up anything.

Thanks


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## concretemasonry

You guys are confusing interlocking concrete pavers with precast concrete "stepping stones".

You might be able to get away with HSB or some other base and no sand for a casual patio if you are using interlocking paving stones. If you are doing something really serious like a driveway, street or airport taxiway for a 747, you will need a conpacted base followed by a 1" sand setting bed for the smaller interlocking pavers. Interlocking pavers are 8000 to 12000 psi.

The larger (over 10" dimension)pieces should be put on a base that is compatible with the dimensions, strength and reinforcing(if any) since you are intially setting them on a relaively hard surface. The larger units are usually 3000 to 5000 psi.

The two types of surfaces are different in their mechnaics and ability to handle heavy loads and proper installation standards and you CANNOT confuse the installation and base/setting bed materials.

Dick


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## KUIPORNG

*Don't want to agrue with the professional but...*

see this link

http://www.obc.mah.gov.on.ca/Asset207.aspx

looks like HPB has some ground as the above paper showing some company tried to use HPB for some public projects of some sort...

also if you google High Performance Bedding and looks closely, you will find happy customers using HPB for the driveway... I remember they said it needs to be deeper though...but will work...

well .... but you may be right... for me I only care about my patio... not the international airports ....

may be I will take a few pictures of my patio every year to see if there is any wave...


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## KUIPORNG

*Could you let me know which HD you can rent the splitter ?*



rabih_00 said:


> lol ..I surely did not skip digging.
> I got a bobcat to do the digging for me.. as I know this will take too long .. and we are already in Mid august .. and it is getting colder .. so the window I had was small and Idid not want to waste time . (this is the reasno I give for everyone, the true reason is that I am lazy there.. I just said it).
> 
> The problem I had with the bobcat is that we had a rainfall the night before.. and it was all muddy.. so it wasn't really dug as good as I wanted it to be.. and it left deep trenches everywhere it went.. so I am repairing those now..
> 
> the are is already all dug out including the steps area.. so I am assuming no need to dig deeper for the steps, i can just lay down the blocks to the height required, back fill with HPB put the pavers and the caps on and statr building the steps. I think I am getting ovewhelmed with this.. I better have a plan so not to mess up anything.
> 
> Thanks


I live in Markham, I would like to rent the splitter for my flower bed cap cutting ... 

thanks


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## rabih_00

KUIPORNG said:


> I live in Markham, I would like to rent the splitter for my flower bed cap cutting ...
> 
> thanks


I saw this at HD on Bayview and Elgin mills (closest to where I live), but another one I saw was in Aurora .. Bayview and Wellington. 
I am pretty sure however you will find it in any HD, do not look for a yellow splitter, the one they have is blue 

I tested it on my 3.25" stone and it worked like a charm, it just needed to be adjusted properly.


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## FJK

Anyone know if there would be issues using HPB footing/base type duty and frost implications.

I am making some stone pillars and my *masonry*​ guy who will do the part above the base told me to dig out a hole 4 feet deep hole with 2.5 feet square sides. Fill it with concrete extending above grade about 8 inches using a square frame..

Well I dug the holes (luckily it was sand underneath) and now realize that is is going to take a lot of concrete. So I thought instead maybe fill it up With HPB to about 8 inches below grade.Then I use concrete to make a 16" in total (8 inches below grade 8 above grade) base.

My only worry is frost. 

Also I plan on sticking a steel post into the middle to support the pillar but my *masonry*​ guy says have it sticking out only a foot or two above above the base. Wouldn't higher be better considering it is a planned 6 foot high pillar.


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## KUIPORNG

*good question but*

Your question is definitely requires some knowledge professional to answer. For normal DIYers like me is kind of not qualify answering.

You may want to also post your question in the other site, (google "high performance bedding" and you will get it) reason is this HPB terms really a trade mark from a Ontario company, so probably more Canadian people know what HPB referring to.... I doubt if our neighbour know this term at all... and this site I have to say have a lot of professionals from the US but not that much from Canada. Don't get me want, they probably know and use the same... but they may not call this the same term and know what they are.


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## bc1

*Hpb*

In my area (Markham) much of the ground is composed of a clay/dirt mixture (and whatever else the builder decided to leave in there). With many recommending HPB gravel as the base and sub base for patio pavers and slabs, how is HPB gravel for freezing and thawing (meaning do the pavers lift at all). The reason behind this question is that won't the water/moisture get trapped in the HPB layer (6 ") between the paver/slab and the clay dirt (clay doesn't have the best drainage properties), and then the water/moisture trapped inbetween when frozen will expand, wont it? 
Any insight or experience?


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## KUIPORNG

*after more than one year*



bc1 said:


> In my area (Markham) much of the ground is composed of a clay/dirt mixture (and whatever else the builder decided to leave in there). With many recommending HPB gravel as the base and sub base for patio pavers and slabs, how is HPB gravel for freezing and thawing (meaning do the pavers lift at all). The reason behind this question is that won't the water/moisture get trapped in the HPB layer (6 ") between the paver/slab and the clay dirt (clay doesn't have the best drainage properties), and then the water/moisture trapped inbetween when frozen will expand, wont it?
> Any insight or experience?


 the work in my backyard is as solid as day 1... not shift... or anything... I don't know the physics but that is my experience.


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