# Converting duplex to single family--what to do with electric services?



## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

I own a home that was originally a single family home when built ~1875 which was converted into a duplex around 1930. I'm now trying to undo all of their hard work by making it a single family home again and have to make a decision on what to do with the electrical system. 
The east portion of the house has 200 amp service and the west half has 100 amp service. I am currently paying two electric bills for the two halves of the house. After examining the bills, it appears that beyond paying for the usage, I'm only paying about a $10 premium per month for having two services as opposed to just one. 
HOWEVER
I'm considering getting an electric tankless hot water heater that has very high power requirements (120 amps). This makes me consider merging the electric system into one as opposed to having two.
Is it reasonable to simply have someone come out and upgrade the east half of the house (currently 200 amp) to 300 amp and then just use the west half service panel as a sub panel? I'd rather not have to re-route all of the connections from the existing west panel back into the east panel as it seems pointless.
The other consideration is just to keep the two services and move some things around to free up 120 amps in the east side panel. The only thing I don't like about this approach is if a potential future buyer might balk at the idea of having two electric bills and whether or not this would somehow prevent a normal sale of the house. Not sure if keeping both services is a little bit "hillbilly" or not.

One last question--the west side panel services 100 amps, but after counting up the breakers, I'm finding 130 amps worth! Wouldn't this trip the main?

Your advice is appreciated.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

A) Leave it all as is. Add the tankless to the 200A panel.

B) Leave it as is, move most circuits from the 100 to the 200 and use the 100 as a dedicated service for the tankless so you can see just how much that thing is NOT saving you.

C) Get an electrician to remove the 100A _service_ and wire the 100A panel as a sub-panel from the 200. Wire the tankless from the 200.

D) Leave it all as is and forget that stupid tankless water heater.


Counting up the sum of the breakers is a completely meaningless number. 

IMO it is not nearly worth changing over to a "real" 320/400A service with two 200A panels. What you will pay for that will take you 25 years to recoup. By this I mean not paying the $10/mo for the added service that already exists.

My choice? D
You are lucky to have that extra capacity, keep it if you can.
If you decide to stay with the #@$%& heater DEFINITELY keep the services. You will NEED the extra capacity.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Thats an old house. I bet it's real nice too.

It's really your call. I would do as you said. Use the 200 amp panel for the main and use the 100 amp panel as the sub panel. This way you will not have to move any branch circuits. 
Before you do anything contact your local building dept and see what permits you will need. Then call the utility about removing the extra meter. Ask questions of both.
Do you plan to do this work yourself? If you are not familiar with electrical work please call a licensed electrician.
There are several requirements that must be met with both panels.
Let the forum members know what your intentions are and we can assist you. Be sure you are up to doing this job safely. That is why you must get a permit and have it inspected.

I pick (C) and let the OP decide on the WH.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

*Not a fan of the electric tankless*

Petey, 

It appears that you're not terribly fond of the electric tankless hot water heater. Do tell--if this thing is bunk, I don't want one.

The main reason I'm considering it is because as this was a duplex, I have two gas tank water heaters, with two gas services and two chimneys in the house. The chimneys are in poor shape, the gas lines are ancient and I'm not interested in updating gear if I don't have to.

The floor is yours...


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

IMO the cost of use and installation far outweigh the savings of those units. On top of that they tremendously tax the electrical system. 

Do some Googling on them and you'll see even plumbers are not all in favor of them, and considering you already have gas, changing to electric is a big step backwards. This is unless you are in Canada where electric is dirt cheap.

If it were me I'd deal with cleaning up the gas units, or get one bigger gas unit and be done with it. 
Even one gas fired tankless would be MUCH better than one big electric unit.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Pete,

Interesting food for thought. I'd probably just install it myself once I get the capacity pushed aside in my service panel so that's not a big worry. As for taxing the electrical system, if I have the capacity, why would this be a problem? Would I see lights dimming every time this thing kicked on? Not sure about the neighborhood electrical system as when the neighbor across the street's AC comes on, MY lights dim! 
The cost of use is a consideration as typically (from what I understand) it costs about 10-15% more to heat with electricity than with gas. However, the installation of the gas tankless would probably require significant gas line upgrades (to flow the additional gas) and repair/lining of the existing chimneys. I also understand most of the gas units require fresh air plumbing--all of these fixes are jobs that I'd rather not undertake if possible. Also, it's said that the electric units are 98+ efficient. The major question is which utility will remain more stable? It seems that natural gas prices are bouncing around all over the place, but electric is always on a steady rise. 

Also, please educate me in the mystery of my 130 amps with of breakers to my 100 amp service. I can't seem to turn up any information as to why this would be the case and feeling a bit clueless!

Thanks


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

zamoti said:


> Would I see lights dimming every time this thing kicked on?


Almost definitely! 



zamoti said:


> Also, please educate me in the mystery of my 130 amps with of breakers to my 100 amp service. I can't seem to turn up any information as to why this would be the case and feeling a bit clueless!


No mystery really. 
Remember that not nearly everything will EVER be on full blast at the same time. Also, circuits are designed to give some flexibility and "cushion".
A dedicated circuit for electric heat for instance can only be loaded to 80%. Even then, the heats goes on and off via the thermostat.

A demand load calculation is the only way to tell what capacity is needed for a service.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Thanks for your advice on this issue. I have to think about if I can live with dimming lights and do some looking around to see if there are truly financial benefits to using electric tankless. 
At least I have a good idea what to do with my electric system which is what I was after.

Your help is appreciated.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Seems like according to code you can't have two service entrances on a single family residence. Since this was a duplex it was ok then I guess and maybe still ok since it is existing and met code when installed?? (I wouldn't ask if it's ok unless you are ready to change it!)

It may end up worthwhile anyway to have an electrician change the 100 amp panel to a subpanel and drop down to just the one 200 amp service entrance panel. Your cost for the extra service is probably more than just $10/mo as usually the first kw useage costs more and cost per kwh decreases at a certain point so you're paying the higher rate on more kwh each month than you would with one service.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I allready have few experence with whole house electric tankless heater IMO some are not worth a crap and some are ok depending on set up and unit size.

Those sistuation useally result have to upgrading the service but if you leave the 200 amp alone you may risk running to trip the main breaker and see the meter go in overdrive mode when the tankless kick in .


For the European verison they are not any better than North America verison is 

But for point of use electric tankless heater yeah they work not too shabby.

Also Many POCO is getting strict with electric wholehouse tankless heater due they have some issue with transfomer { it allready happend in few spots so far } 

A wise choice is gas fired whole house tankless heater they can able modaite { adjust } much better than the electric can due they only come on or off either half or full power rate depending on water flow and unforetally there is a minuim water flowage to order them to kick on.

The only downsize with gas fired whole house tankless heater is gas pipeing size and meter { both may end up changing it } cost wise it may be cheaper than go with 320/400 amp service in some area.

{ Disclaimer :: the price will really not be the same all over the USA at all }

My choice ?? just get a super insluated electric waterheater tank type and insluated the pipes well.

Merci,Marc


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

jogr said:


> Seems like according to code you can't have two service entrances on a single family residence.


Where do you find this?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

jogr said:


> Seems like according to code you can't have two service entrances on a single family residence. Since this was a duplex it was ok then I guess and maybe still ok since it is existing and met code when installed?? (I wouldn't ask if it's ok unless you are ready to change it!)


 
Now you got me thinking for a minute.,,

Thanks SpeedyPete for this one :thumbup:


Dangbat I am not going to swear in here either Engish or French.,,


Anyway do you have some sort of fact or statement that back ya up ??

I did see quite few single family home do have two meters .,,

One for main lighting and genral useage and second meter for off peak useage like tank type electric waterheater or electric storage heater so it hold a bit of heat so they can use it off peak rates.

It is simuair arrangement in European no diffrent than North American system at all 

Merci,Marc


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## ACB Electric (Nov 29, 2008)

I would just keep the 200 and sub feed the 100 from that, forget the electric demand and get a gas demand if you wish to go the "on demand route, they have their advantages and disadvantages, minimum flow is the main disadvantage, if you find thats a major inconveinience that you can't live with, I have been told you can ad a small 5 or 6 liter electric say under a bathroom sink (if thats where trickle is usedmost) and run the demand into it.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Perhaps I should really get at what the true issue is for me in asking about this setup. My main concern is to save a few bucks (long term, not so much short) on owning, maintaining, and "feeding" a water heater.
Some of my decisions are based on what is worthwhile to maintain and upgrade in a very old (and in some ways, poorly maintained) house. What comes to mind is that my two chimneys are in pretty sad shape and I would like to eventually have them removed to gain back a decent amount of floor space and to prevent them from becoming a structural burden as they decay. An electric water heater allows me this as since I've replaced the furnace with a high-efficiency I have no need for the chimneys beyond the current twin gas hot water tanks. 
As I have 300 amps of electrical service available, I thought that it might be a good idea to put some of it to use if it affords me the ability to simplify the chimney/hot water tank/gas line situation. Also, beyond having the service panels changed over at the meters, I can do the plumbing and electrical work myself (with all of your advice, of course). 
In the end, if I can install a high-efficiency hot water system, get some state and federal tax credits out of the deal, free myself of ancient gas lines and rotting chimneys and MAYBE save a few bucks on the TCO of a newer hot water system then I'd be pleased.

As for any inspection/code issues, the inspector has been through a few times now (she's the nosy sort) and the only thing she cared about was the new furnace and that I bought a permit to have it upgraded (even though I don't think one was required). Whatever, just so long as she stays out of my hair!
Also, called the electric company, they don't care that I have two services in a single family home.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I personally would leave both services intact.

This way the house could remain zoned as a duplex in case the next owner wants to convert it (back) to a duplex. Whereas a subdivision permit might be needed and might not even be available if you officially converted it to a single family and someone wanted to convert it back later.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Too late to consider ever going back now. The water main has already been cut down from two to one, telephone and cable have been unified with the secondary systems having been removed from the pole back. Major structural elements in the basement have been modified to allow access to both sides of the house. Once the kitchen is moved, there will be a single gas service. Electrical is the last to go (if it ever goes).
This property is worth almost twice it's original value as a single family as opposed to a duplex. As a duplex the fair market value was limited by the [potential] rent. As this is a bit of a "snooty" neighborhood that has a number of low rent neighborhoods within a 15 min drive, rents are kept low even though home prices remain relatively high compared to neighboring communities.

In short, unless the next owner of this home likes throwing away their money, it will likely remain single family unless the dynamic of the neighborhood changes significantly. By then, I'll probably be living elsewhere!


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

I second the idea that you should think twice about full house electric tankless. Consumer reports refused to even review them on the grounds that they are not even close to performing acceptable for most users, and the energy benefits are nearly nothing.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

It would seem that the general consensus is that the electric tankless water heater is a big fat failure. HOWEVER, I'm really curious to know on what facts is this judgment based? 
I'm doing my best to seek high-value investments for my home and tankless hot water seems promising, but I'm finding it difficult to find honest, unbiased, fact-based information out there. Does anyone have any solid evidence for or against these things? It seems that the original question about the electrical system has been answered, for which I am grateful, but now the conversation has moved into the actual/perceived cost savings of tankless hot water; in my case electric as installing a gas-fired system is not a cost-effective option for me (in terms of installation).

So what's the deal? Anyone with one of these things installed in their home out there care to weigh in?

Thanks again for all of the responses!


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Ok, got off my lazy arse and just called a manufacturer. I spoke with a fellow at Stiebel-Eltron as they seem to make one of the better devices and here is what he told me regarding cost of use.
At my incoming cold water temperature which is 45° F during a cold week in Pennsylvania, with $0.14 per kwh he stated that it would cost about $150 a month to run this unit one hour solid at maximum usage (4 GPM @ 125°). In summer, perhaps a little less as the incoming cold water temperature will rise a little. 
So there, we have some actual numbers for usage. 
FYI, I'm not trying to sell anyone on this particular device, I'm just trying to contribute solid information to the conversation. Anyone got a comparable gas calculation out there? Gas tank vs. gas tankless?


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

zamoti, yes, consumer reports compared gas tankless and gas tanked. They found that the tankless are not worth it, it would take 20+ years to recoup your investment because the energy savings are nearly zero. And once you factor in yearly professional service to clean out scale and to maintain it, it may never be worth it.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm

This is the same article where they talk about how electric tankless are such a joke they won't even review them.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Gigs,

Thanks for the link, but this isn't really pertinent. They test a gas tankless to a gas tank. They rule out electric because of the high amperage requirement that I have at my disposal. Saying that they called electric tankless a "joke" and wouldn't test them is a bit misleading as this is what they really said: 

"We didn't test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground*water is cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless model."

Now that said, it could be the case that my 45° water may be a bit on the cold side to heat, but I've nothing to go on but the manufacturer's word that a given unit would bring 45° water up to 125° at 4GPM. This is why I'm soliciting advice based on solid evidence--I can't find much to prove or disprove the manufacturer's claims. 
Anyone out there have any real-world experience or evidence thereof?

Thanks again everyone


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

Consider this, where you live, who would you call to fix your instant hot water heater?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

My bottom line: for me at the end of day of DIYing, a *long hot shower* is a luxury I do not want to live without. Honestly evaluate how you, and your family, use hot water and how you _want_ to use it. Then make your choice.

Last easter our water heater failed (dumped 40g HOH and around 6g Fuel Oil :furious.

I was inclined to replace with tankless until I started mapping my plumbing system. There is a significant distance between our kitchen sink and master bath (70+ pipe feet). Both electric and gas on-demand manufacturers recommended to us that we install *TWO* on-demand systems: one for the kitchen/laundry, and one for the bathrooms. 

Otherwise, we would sacrifice *"Comfort"* (their words - I interpreted to mean: if someone's in the shower don't do laundry/dishes/run dishwasher or both will get luke-warm water). Two systems and two installs began to get unreasonable $-wise. So we installed another oil fired HWH - which sips oil and NEVER EVER runs out of hot water!:yes:


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Where do you find this?


Article 225.30


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

Leah Frances said:


> Last easter our water heater failed (dumped 40g HOH and around 6g Fuel Oil :furious.
> 
> I was inclined to replace with tankless


My 50gal gas house water heater leaked about a year ago and I too was going the tankless route. I went to my local Lowes and bought the Bosch Aquastar whole house unit. after spending about 1200, I then got it home realizing I needed a specialized venting system for the distance I needed to go which added about another 450+ to the bill (with me doing the install). All in all, I returned the unit, bought a high-efficiency 50 gal gas heater and just replaced the previous one I had in a few hours. I figured I'll keep it as efficient as possible but not need to spend 3x the price with all the additional work! :no:


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## pcampbell (Feb 7, 2008)

Off topic but is there such thing as a direct vented tank heater? I do not hear many good things about tankless, BUT I'd like to get rid of my chimney to free up space in the attic to finish it off as living space. This would also give us room for another closet on the first floor... it's not the basement that is valuable real estate but what is above it!

Right now our tank heater goes through the chimney. Everything else is DV or B-power vented or whatever.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

You can take the chimneys out of the consideration. New gas water heaters, like the new furnaces are energy efficient and use a power vent through a PVC pipe. No need for chimneys at all.

I would not even consider an electric water heater in my home. To expensive to run and to slow to recover on the tank type. Other than installs, I have no personal experience with on demand water heaters.

Disclaimer: I'm an electrician and not a plumber.


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

One item that caught my attention was the distance from tank to point of use. My HW tank is in the middle of the house--basically close to neither my bathrooms nor my kitchen(s). I'm not wondering if an electric point of use tankless under the kitchen sink wouldn't be a good idea as the water lines for my kitchen run through an unheated crawlspace. Also, I have a second chimney access from where a furnace was removed that I could use to move the current tank about 15 feet closer to the bathrooms. Still got a gas line there too. 
Now the question remains, will a single small electric point of use hot water heater be cost effective in mitigating the heat loss from the long haul through an unheated crawlspace? As for the labor, I'm good on my own and I have the extra capactiy in terms of electrical service. 
Maybe I'll just say screw it, keep one tank, take the other tank and make it into a solar batch heater on the roof.


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

You can insulate the pipes you know. Cost of insulation: $5


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## zamoti (Jan 19, 2009)

Gigs,

If you've nothing worthwhile to contribute perhaps consider not contributing. Just so you know, the pipes are very well insulated and also have an electric heat wrap on them as well as they would often freeze in the winter.


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm sorry no one is giving you the answers you want to hear. I know tankless seems trendy and you probably want to impress your friends. We aren't your yes-men though.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

First, I would like to say that electricity in Canada is not dirt cheap. Years ago it was, but we have had corporate thieves in charge and they have stolen our power company's blind! now, we have to make up the loss's!

I have just finished an older home reno. and had considered tankless water heating. I found that the temperature rise is hardly adequate for safe dish washer use! And this was for a gas fired unit! ( a Bosch unit ) Here in the north our water in the winter comes in at 40F temperatures and the output of tankless would be around the 120F mark. Not considered enough for a dish washer!

I have installed both high efficiency furnace and hotwater heater. These have allowed me to tear down the chimney, freeing up space on the main floor for a refrigerator.

I would definitely urge you to think long and hard about going tankless. And if you properly research these, I think that you will change your mind! These have few, if any redeeming qualities!

I would think that converting your 100 amp panel to a subpanel would allow some savings in the long run!


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## Bocolo (Jan 24, 2009)

zamoti said:


> Gigs,
> 
> If you've nothing worthwhile to contribute perhaps consider not contributing.
> 
> Perhaps Gigs said what he said on the insulation with a bit of sarcasm but it was still a valid idea. I know nothing about the subject but I have been following the thread. It appears quite clearly that you have made up your mind on getting the tankless water heater. Perhaps it is because that is what everyone is using in your "snooty" neighborhood. Why even ask if every single answer is going to be "shot" down? Do your own research, read other peoples opinions, thank everyone for their help, and finally make your own decision. Nice and Simple:wink:


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