# Possible warped rotors ?



## shirbon (Oct 2, 2014)

Have a 2012 Highlander, step on brakes and feel it vibrate or lunge/surge like had square wheels. Pretty sure rotors are warped though can't feel anything in steering wheel. question is, is it the front or rear rotors. my guess is it is most likely the front but I can't say for sure especially since no vibration in steering wheel as mentioned when applying brakes. Any ideas ?


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

I always thought warped rotors you’d feel pulsing in the brake pedal. You’d likely need to measure runout to discover the bad actor for sure.


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## shirbon (Oct 2, 2014)

maybe feel it in the pedals, I would have to drive it again its not my main car its the Mrs.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Unless you drove with the parking break on...its the front rotors. The rotors don't actually "warp", you irregularly deposit pad material onto the rotor surface. 

Google how to "bed" the rotor and pad.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

I had what sounds like the same problem on my pickup. I took a gamble and replaced the front rotors and pads (all for under $75) and problem solved. It took about an hour to do.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

shirbon said:


> Have a 2012 Highlander, step on brakes and feel it vibrate or lunge/surge like had square wheels. Pretty sure rotors are warped though can't feel anything in steering wheel. question is, is it the front or rear rotors. my guess is it is most likely the front but I can't say for sure especially since no vibration in steering wheel as mentioned when applying brakes. Any ideas ?


 In normal braking, the front does 80 of the work, so they wear faster than the rear.

A good test for warpage, is to gently brake for a long distance, and feel with your foot any pulsation.

Pulsation, and you have warpage, the stronger the pulse, the more warpage you have.

As stated, new rotors and pads are a good investment, to save the Mrs. life.

And even a mediocre diy-er can do it in a couple of hours.

You will need a can of bearing grease, and new seals, all part of standard maintenance.


ED


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> You will need a can of bearing grease, and new seals, all part of standard maintenance.


I've only worked on one vehicle where I needed bearing grease (other than a little smear on the back of the pads to prevent squeaking). The other dozen vehicles I've changed brakes on, I took the wheel off, unbolted the caliper, at which point the rotor either fell off or I had smack it with a hammer once or twice, and then it fell off. Then I squeezed the pistons back into the caliper with a big C-clamp, dropped the new pads in place, slipped the new rotor into place, slipped the caliper over the rotor, bolted the caliper back on, and put the wheel back on. No grease; no seals; no muss, no fuss.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> I've only worked on one vehicle where I needed bearing grease (other than a little smear on the back of the pads to prevent squeaking). The other dozen vehicles I've changed brakes on, I took the wheel off, unbolted the caliper, at which point the rotor either fell off or I had smack it with a hammer once or twice, and then it fell off. Then I squeezed the pistons back into the caliper with a big C-clamp, dropped the new pads in place, slipped the new rotor into place, slipped the caliper over the rotor, bolted the caliper back on, and put the wheel back on. No grease; no seals; no muss, no fuss.



I have never seen replacement rotors that came with wheel bearings already installed.

Always had to re-use the old bearings, or buy new bearings to install in the hub.

And I have did dozens in a different life.

And the grease is for packing the wheel bearings, the seal is for the inner bearing to seal.

Grease on any rotor braking surface is making a " no brake" scenario. 

You may lightly grease the caliper sliding surface LIGHTLY.


ED


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

No grease. These are sealed hubs. 

To be honest, while brakes are certainly doable, I would watch a few videos and be especially cognizant of break in. 

You will need:

Proper rotor and pad set - To me...OEM is the best when it comes to Toyota, but there are good kits online from PowerStop and Raybestos
High temp caliper slide pin lube
Brake clean, get the non chlorinated and low-VOC
Wire brush
Anti-seize
Hand tools
Vinyl hose
C-Clap
Jack stands


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> I have never seen replacement rotors that came with wheel bearings already installed.


You're working on the wrong vehicles. None of mine have bearings in them; they're just metal discs, with holes for the lug bolts. But seriously, different vehicles are apparently different. In the case of the OP's 2012 Highlander, no bearings are involved.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> You will need:
> 
> Proper rotor and pad set - To me...OEM is the best when it comes to Toyota, but there are good kits online from PowerStop and Raybestos - Yes, of course.
> High temp caliper slide pin lube - Maybe; I've never had one that needed the pins regreased.
> ...


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

See the note above about sealed hubs. 

If you aren't wire brushing off the wheel hub face, you aren't ensuring that the rotor is perfectly in plane with the hub. A bit of anti seize on that surface in addition to the wheel studs and mounting surface of the wheel will make for much easier removal. Nitrile gloves are your friend here. 

Not lubing the slide pins and/or replacing the rubber boots as necessary is not best practices for a brake job that will last. There is a reason that some brake jobs last 40K miles and others last 100K miles. Yes...much of that has to do with driving and more specifically...break in bedding of the rotors, but an improperly or inadequately lubricated slide pin will most definitely cause irregular wear and lead to rotor irregularity again. 

And you absolutely should be changing or bleeding your brake fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic and does lead to rust of internal components. I promise you that you don't want to be faced with the replacement of an ABS unit because of poor maintenance. They aren't cheap.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Before replacing the pads and rotors, you should try abrading off the deposits that are more likely there than actual warping (see WoW's first post). Use a flap wheel or a sanding disc.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

If you feel it in steering wheel, it's front.
If you feel it in your ars, it's rear.
Highlander, like any Toyota, does not have any bearings coming with rotors. It is simple rotor turning or swap.
To avoid frequent maintenance of such nature, bed in new rotors, or turned rotors, immediately after install.
Also, check brake pads for uneven inner to outer pads wear. Toyotas are not uncommon to have sticky caliper, what will cause uneven brake pad materail build up on rotors, causing brake pulsation.
Rotors do NOT warp.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> A bit of anti seize on that surface in addition to the wheel studs and mounting surface of the wheel will make for much easier removal.


I believe applying anti-seize to the wheel studs is not recommended - or safe. I've never found applying it to the faces of the rotor to be necessary, and I would be hesitant to do so, since it could get squeezed out and end up on the pad contact surfaces of the rotor, which would compromise the effectiveness of the brakes. Brake shops don't do this, so I wouldn't either.


ukrkoz said:


> It is simple rotor turning or swap.


I've found it costs as much or more to have rotors turned as to replace them. Plus, swapping them is soooo much easier. You just take the old ones off, and put the new ones on. Turning them reuires you to have another vehicle to take the rotors to the machine shop, wait for them to get around to turning them, and then going back to pick them up, again, with another vehicle.


ukrkoz said:


> uneven brake pad materail build up on rotors, causing brake pulsation.
> Rotors do NOT warp.


Theoretically, they could, but it would not be noticeable when driving if they did. The slide pins would just be subject to constant movement, as the entire caliper would be moving in and out all the time. Yeah, if you're noticing pulsation, it's because one part of the rotor is thicker than the rest.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> You're working on the wrong vehicles. None of mine have bearings in them; they're just metal discs, with holes for the lug bolts. But seriously, different vehicles are apparently different. In the case of the OP's 2012 Highlander, no bearings are involved.



It is still incomprehensible that there are no bearings in those.

Every rotating part needs a bearing, or it wears itself into nothing, then you have major breakdown, when the wheels fall off. 

And that is a scary and deadly ride.

I had that happen in 76, on a 68 Buick.

Wrecked my life for 6 months, while I was recuperating from massive bodily damage.


ED


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> It is still incomprehensible that there are no bearings in those.
> 
> Every rotating part needs a bearing, or it wears itself into nothing, then you have major breakdown, when the wheels fall off.


There are bearings in the hub, but the rotor is attached the same way as the wheel. There are no bearings in the rim, either. Millions of vehicles are done this way, and they work just fine.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

de-nagorg said:


> It is still incomprehensible that there are no bearings in those.
> 
> Every rotating part needs a bearing, or it wears itself into nothing, then you have major breakdown, when the wheels fall off.
> 
> ...


There are bearing. It is a sealed hub...i.e. no grease or servicing.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> I believe applying anti-seize to the wheel studs is not recommended - or safe. I've never found applying it to the faces of the rotor to be necessary, and I would be hesitant to do so, since it could get squeezed out and end up on the pad contact surfaces of the rotor, which would compromise the effectiveness of the brakes. Brake shops don't do this, so I wouldn't either.
> 
> I've found it costs as much or more to have rotors turned as to replace them. Plus, swapping them is soooo much easier. You just take the old ones off, and put the new ones on. Turning them reuires you to have another vehicle to take the rotors to the machine shop, wait for them to get around to turning them, and then going back to pick them up, again, with another vehicle.
> 
> Theoretically, they could, but it would not be noticeable when driving if they did. The slide pins would just be subject to constant movement, as the entire caliper would be moving in and out all the time. Yeah, if you're noticing pulsation, it's because one part of the rotor is thicker than the rest.


I will respectfully disagree. If you understand how wheel torque works, you will realized that clamping and holding force is a function of bolt stretch. Having friction visa via buggered up threads or an aggregation of debris between the lug shoulder and the wheel is NOT accurate. 

I have put anti-seize on stud and lug shoulders for ever as well as applied appropriate wheel torques and have NEVER had brake issues. Many times, because of stiction and other issues, you are applying either too much or to little torque to the stud and resulatantly the rotor. Composite rotors, most are now, are prone to warping more than the older style because of the thin backing faces. 

You don't squeeze a got of anti seize like a dollop of jelly on the damn thing. Invalidating something on the basis of someone doing a sh*t job of it is kind of a stupid proposition. 

Brake shops are also production entities and also DON'T torque wheels properly except to use the torque limiting lug attachments to their air guns. No offense, but quoting "the brake shops" don't do it is silly. Do you really think they make money if your brakes last 100K miles? The last set of brakes I did on my 4 runner, a heavy truck, lasted just over 100K miles. You show me where a brake shop gets 100K out of set of brakes...and then you might have my attention. 

Pulsation in rotors is because they are out of run, but it is almost never because of heat accumulation and warping to the actual rotor. It is because of the irregular deposition of pad material to the rotor surface. Usually from poor driving and definitely from improper break in procedures for the brakes.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> I will respectfully disagree. If you understand how wheel torque works, you will realized that clamping and holding force is a function of bolt stretch.


I am well aware of the relationship between friction, torque, and tension. Nut torque is a function of tension and friction - reduce the friction and you apply more tension at the same torque; reduce the friction too much and the tension required could exceed the yield stress of the bolt. When that happens, not only is the bolt itself compromised, it will continue to stretch with little added tension force, possibly resulting in a reduction in clamping force, which could allow the lug nut to loosen. 

I'll say it again, I don't recommend putting anti-seize compound on the wheel studs or any part of the rotor. The only place I would consider using anti-seize compound is on the caliper mounting bolts.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> There are bearing. It is a sealed hub...i.e. no grease or servicing.



I see; designed to wear out, so they can sell a new vehicle.

ED


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## shirbon (Oct 2, 2014)

thanks for all the input everyone. so if the rotors are not actually warped but have bud up on them, is there anyway to remove the bid up other than having them turned ? I will probably just get new front rotors and pads.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

Rotors cost, around here, $20 a piece to turn. Whatever you buy new for $20, will be junk. Either way, no matter what you decide, BED THEM IN right away. I spoke.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

shirbon said:


> so if the rotors are not actually warped but have bud up on them, is there anyway to remove the bid up other than having them turned ?


As far as I know, turning them is the only way to get them evened out to within the tolerance they need to have.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

ukrkoz said:


> Rotors cost, around here, $20 a piece to turn. Whatever you buy new for $20, will be junk.


I think it's between $20 and $25 to have rotors turned around here. I usually spend between $25 and $30 for new rotors, and haven't gotten any that were junk out of the 3 dozen I've bought. Rockauto has Power stop, Raybestos, Centric and other good brands, all under $32, including shipping. Amazon has the same brands for under $25, at least for me, since I have Prime and the shipping is free.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Maybr a College Auto repair course class person, can turn them for you just to get the credit for the class.

Look for a nearby Community College with a class, and inquire with the professor teaching the course, he may help immensely.


ED


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## shirbon (Oct 2, 2014)

ukrkoz, what does it mean to bed them in ?


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

de-nagorg said:


> I see; designed to wear out, so they can sell a new vehicle.


Not at all. When the sealed hub wears out, you just replace it. No guesswork about greasing bearings. Just pull off a part, put on a new one. The rotors wear out more frequently than the hubs. I'll grant you that the total cost of the rotor-on-hub is probably a few dollars more than rotor-on-bearings. But the ease of install is way better.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> As far as I know, turning them is the only way to get them evened out to within the tolerance they need to have.


Rotor hone.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

shirbon said:


> ukrkoz, what does it mean to bed them in ?


Now you asking the right question
Hope, this works:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3fzHrPbvAhWNJzQIHeinAOQQFjAAegQIBBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apcautotech.com%2Fgetmedia%2Fbd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d%2FCentric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw04NoeOBjawW6quj6FycpX6


It downloads PDF article, so read it. Also has bed in procedure description. In case it does not work, as I am not sure, how to link to PDF link on Google, here's bedding procedure:








How to Bed-In Brake Pads


Learn procedures for bedding-in brake pads on both street cars and race vehicles by reading this post on how to bed-in brake pads.




www.onallcylinders.com





As I said, it needs to be done right away so, plan rotors replacement wisely. I had luxury of living in rural areas for the last 20 years, so I just roll out barely touching brakes and bed in in one of our low traffic backroads. If you live in a city, you, technically, can't bed them in, due to continuous brakes use necessity. They can be bedded in on a special machine but who will pay for that...


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

huesmann said:


> Rotor hone.


I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said turning them was the only way *I know of* to get it right. It doesn't look like to me, without taking a ton of micrometer measurements (or maybe with a caliper), that it would be possible to get the thickness the same all the way around, with enough precision to be effective. I certainly couldn't tell visually where the thicker and thinner areas were on the rotors I had the issue with.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

ukrkoz said:


> As I said, it needs to be done right away so, plan rotors replacement wisely.


The way I read the information in the link, you're supposed to drive it normally for 150-200 miles before doing the procedure. Anyway, it's similar to the printed directions that came with a set of rotors I got last year (what I got said to do the 65mph to 10 mph hard braking 8-10 times; no mention of driving it normally before doing the bedding procedure). I was a little perturbed that the information was not included with any of the dozens of rotors I had purchased previously.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

This line of the pdf caught my attention: "If possible, new discs should be bedded with used pads of the same compound that will be used going forward."

I'll have to consider doing that next time I change rotors and pads. It would mean taking everything apart twice, but it's not a difficult process, so I might do it.

Also from the pdf, this is for huesmann: "The driver can feel a 0.0004" deposit or TV on the disc. 0.001" is annoying." I don't think I'd attempt to get within that tolerance with a hone.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

HotRodx10 said:


> The way I read the information in the link, you're supposed to drive it normally for 150-200 miles before doing the procedure. Anyway, it's similar to the printed directions that came with a set of rotors I got last year (what I got said to do the 65mph to 10 mph hard braking 8-10 times; no mention of driving it normally before doing the bedding procedure). *I was a little perturbed that the information was not included with any of the dozens of rotors I had purchased previously.*



I have an opinion, that this is a new unproven theorem, being pushed as fact.

And you did not get the directions before, because it had not been thought of.

As I have never heard this before myself, and I have been repairing brakes since the 50's, and there were no Disc brakes then, .

The first ones that I saw were in 1970, on performance cars.
Then in the 80's, when I was in brake school, it was not taught, the way that this article states.

As with progress things do change, so I am not saying that it is wrong, just nothing that I as a pro ever did.

Sounds like an expensive experiment, to pay a shop mechanic to take an hour or two drive down I 80, braking and accelerating repeatedly.

The WHP, would surely be pulling them over just to see what is wrong with them.


ED


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

de-nagorg said:


> I see; designed to wear out, so they can sell a new vehicle.
> 
> ED


They are easily replaced and assuming that you don't hit a curb or do something to otherwise damage them, I have only replaced a couple. One when the car was in a wreck and the other on my truck that was known for "eating" them because of the weight of the front end. 

You don't know about them, because they mostly last forever.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> I am well aware of the relationship between friction, torque, and tension. Nut torque is a function of tension and friction - reduce the friction and you apply more tension at the same torque; reduce the friction too much and the tension required could exceed the yield stress of the bolt. When that happens, not only is the bolt itself compromised, it will continue to stretch with little added tension force, possibly resulting in a reduction in clamping force, which could allow the lug nut to loosen.
> 
> I'll say it again, I don't recommend putting anti-seize compound on the wheel studs or any part of the rotor. The only place I would consider using anti-seize compound is on the caliper mounting bolts.


Well you will forgive my brevity...but you'd be wrong. 

Lug Nut Torque

I guess I better stop putting lube, per ARP guidelines, on my head studs, washers, and bolts. 

I didn't say glob on Anti-Seize like I am squeezing out tooth paste, but the simple fact is that an light coat of Anti-Seize on the:

Hub face/ring or the back of the wheel plate
Wheel studs
Lug shoulders
Makes proper torque of the wheels possible as well as easy removal. I have NEVER fouled a pad or gotten it on a rotor nor has it ever "slung" off. 

Once again...if you are a idiot and put on too much...that is on you. Just like you can overfill a crankcase, shall we use the actions of an idiot as justification that you shouldn't change the oil after it is filled up once properly? 

I am guessing you think synthetic oil is a scam too?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> I have an opinion, that this is a new unproven theorem, being pushed as fact.


Maybe, but the problem developed on my pickup shortly after an incident that involved emergency braking. I haven't had the problem on any other vehicles, but also haven't locked up the brakes on any of them, either.



de-nagorg said:


> As I have never heard this before myself, and I have been repairing brakes since the 50's, and there were no Disc brakes then, .
> 
> The first ones that I saw were in 1970, on performance cars.
> Then in the 80's, when I was in brake school, it was not taught, the way that this article states.


Drums with shoes would probably not display the same symptoms, even if subject to the same issue. My guess is that in the 80's not even semi-metallic pads we in use, certainly not metallic or ceramic. The new process may be a response to a problem tht didn't occur with older-style pads, and wasn't identified as being a problem with a solution until recently. However, the pdf from Centric is dated 8/20/2018, so if the problem and solution were known then, there's at least a few sets of rotors I bought that should have included the info.


de-nagorg said:


> Sounds like an expensive experiment, to pay a shop mechanic to take an hour or two drive down I 80, braking and accelerating repeatedly.


There's plenty of state highways around Casper, as there are here, with 65 or 70mph speed limits, that are fairly empty for at least some hours of the day. I didn't have any trouble finding a place to complete the process.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Well you will forgive my brevity...but you'd be wrong.
> 
> Lug Nut Torque


You'll have to forgive my brevity, but you didn't read what you linked to, because it says exactly the same things I did.


Windows on Wash said:


> I am guessing you think synthetic oil is a scam too?


I'm not sure where that came from.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

From @ Hotrodx10 My guess is that in the 80's not even semi-metallic pads we in use, certainly not metallic or ceramic.

You would be wrong.

There were all the above listed as early as 83, just not very prevalent.

And probably experimental, so this idea of bedding, was not dreamed up.

As I stated progress happens.

ED


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> There were all the above listed as early as 83, just not very prevalent.


Ok, you got me there. I should have said "...not in _common_ use..."


de-nagorg said:


> And probably experimental, so this idea of bedding, was not dreamed up.


I'm still not sure whether you're saying bedding brakes is a useful procedure or 'snake oil'...


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said turning them was the only way *I know of* to get it right. It doesn't look like to me, without taking a ton of micrometer measurements (or maybe with a caliper), that it would be possible to get the thickness the same all the way around, with enough precision to be effective. I certainly couldn't tell visually where the thicker and thinner areas were on the rotors I had the issue with.


Well, then you're probably _really _advocating replacing rotors, given that turning rotors probably costs more.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> You'll have to forgive my brevity, but you didn't read what you linked to, because it says exactly the same things I did.
> 
> I'm not sure where that came from.


I think we need to double back on your reading comprehension if you think that what I posted supports your understanding of this. 

From the article for easier consumption:

The threads on the hub stud and in the lug nut are actually ramps wrapped around in a circle. When torque (twisting force) is applied to the lug nut, the rising of the ramp causes the stud to be stretched. This stretch is what causes the lug nuts to stay tight. The *stretched stud* is like a spring and pulls the nut towards the hub holding the wheel rim tight.
Each size stud has an appropriate torque. That torque will *stretch* the stud the amount necessary to keep the lug nut from turning.
If you *over torque*, you over stretch the stud and weaken it.
Some people like to put lubricant on the threads so that they are easier to remove. You actually make things worse doing that. With lubricant on the threads, you can put more stretch into the stud with the same amount of torque. The lubricant will eventually evaporate and when you go to remove the lug nut, you have the extra stretch tension to break loose.
*Likewise, if the threads are cruddy, that can induce more friction and cause the stud to not be properly stretched.*
I fully acknowledge bullet line item number 4, however, can someone show me where a wheel stud is not corroded or oxidized, then I will gladly install those lug nuts dry with the expectation that I am achieving the engineered torque specifications that are intended by the factory on a BRAND NEW stud and nut combination. 

Seeing as that isn't the case, I will apply a light film to the threads and hub face. None of which will "fly off" and get on the rotor. 

But you do it your way. You don't think it makes sense to clean or lubricate the slide pins either so...let's see how that turns out for you. 

I will continue to get 100K out of my brakes in the meantime.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

huesmann said:


> Well, then you're probably _really _advocating replacing rotors, given that turning rotors probably costs more.


Each person should make up their own mind, but for me, getting the rotors turned would only save a few $, if anything at all, assuming they have enough remaining thickness that they can be turned and still be within spec. It's not worth the hassle, the downtime, and possibly getting them to the machine shop and finding out I need new ones, anyway.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Your quote from the article:


Windows on Wash said:


> The threads on the hub stud and in the lug nut are actually ramps wrapped around in a circle. When torque (twisting force) is applied to the lug nut, the rising of the ramp causes the stud to be stretched. This stretch is what causes the lug nuts to stay tight. The *stretched stud* is like a spring and pulls the nut towards the hub holding the wheel rim tight.


I said:


HotRodx10 said:


> I am well aware of the relationship between friction, torque, and tension. Nut torque is a function of tension and friction - reduce the friction and you apply more tension at the same torque;


Your quote from the article:


Windows on Wash said:


> Each size stud has an appropriate torque. That torque will *stretch* the stud the amount necessary to keep the lug nut from turning. If you *over torque*, you over stretch the stud and weaken it.


I said:


HotRodx10 said:


> reduce the friction too much and the tension required could exceed the yield stress of the bolt. When that happens, not only is the bolt itself compromised, it will continue to stretch with little added tension force, possibly resulting in a reduction in clamping force, which could allow the lug nut to loosen.


Your quote from the article:


Windows on Wash said:


> Some people like to put lubricant on the threads so that they are easier to remove. You actually make things worse doing that. With lubricant on the threads, you can put more stretch into the stud with the same amount of torque. The lubricant will eventually evaporate and when you go to remove the lug nut, you have the extra stretch tension to break loose.


I said:


HotRodx10 said:


> I don't recommend putting anti-seize compound on the wheel studs or any part of the rotor.


Your quote from the article:


Windows on Wash said:


> Likewise, if the threads are cruddy, that can induce more friction and cause the stud to not be properly stretched.


I didn't address this, but it's also true. If you put something on the bolts to lubricate them, crud will get stuck in it, and change the torque-to-tension ratio and compromise the lug nuts' proper function.

I don't see anything where what I said is contradicted by the article you linked to. It, in fact reiterated pretty much everything I said, giving more detail for some aspects, but less in others. The conclusion is the same however:



> Some people like to put lubricant on the threads so that they are easier to remove. You actually make things worse doing that. With lubricant on the threads, you can put more stretch into the stud with the same amount of torque. The lubricant will eventually evaporate and when you go to remove the lug nut, you have the extra stretch tension to break loose.
> 
> Likewise, if the threads are cruddy, that can induce more friction and cause the stud to not be properly stretched.
> 
> When torque values are given, they are for dry threads.


Anti-seize compound is a lubricant, which should not be used on wheel studs.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

So...now a lubricant causes stuff to get "stuck" on the studs. Okay. 

Like I said and like the countless mechanics before me, I will continue to lightly coat wheel studs to prevent galling and to clean them up in the process. I will also apply back of the wheel hub/rotor face and I will take my wheels off for rotation with a breeze. 

I will continue to never lose a wheel or break a stud. I will also achieve engineered torque clamping loads without the complication of oxidation and corrosion of the wheel stud. 

I will also re-lubricate my caliper slide pins and get 100K out of my brakes. 

Soon as you get 100K out of your brakes...I might pay attention.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

ukrkoz said:


> Now you asking the right question
> Hope, this works:
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> So...now a lubricant causes stuff to get "stuck" on the studs. Okay.


It's basically grease...so yeah.



Windows on Wash said:


> Like I said and like the countless mechanics before me, I will continue to lightly coat wheel studs to prevent galling and to clean them up in the process. I will also apply back of the wheel hub/rotor face and I will take my wheels off for rotation with a breeze.
> 
> I will continue to never lose a wheel or break a stud. I will also achieve engineered torque clamping loads without the complication of oxidation and corrosion of the wheel stud.


Good luck with that. I'll continue to do what every tire shop does.



Windows on Wash said:


> I will also re-lubricate my caliper slide pins and get 100K out of my brakes.
> 
> Soon as you get 100K out of your brakes...I might pay attention.


I haven't had one fail due to uneven wear, or any other issue related to the slide pins. I do check them, and would replace the boots and relubricate them if needed; I just haven't needed to yet.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> It's basically grease...so yeah.
> 
> Good luck with that. I'll continue to do what every tire shop does.
> 
> I haven't had one fail due to uneven wear, or any other issue related to the slide pins. I do check them, and would replace the boots and relubricate them if needed; I just haven't needed to yet.


Yep. Its grease alright, with some solids in it. Seeing as the lug stud is completely encapsulated by the lug nut...not sure how stuff is getting stuck to it or how its getting flung off. I do know that they don't gall and are easily removed. Go ahead and try to pull a wheel from a Toyota Land Cruiser that is driven in the salty NE and then talk to me. 

Tire shops that put wheels on with impact guns and torque limiter extensions....congrats. Only the best of the best for you. 

Get 100K out of set yet? When you do, I will consider doing it like you do. 

Interesting that you are so worried about grease getting on the rotors...but don't mind smearing any on the back of the pads vs. and anti squealing compound. No mention of opening the bleeder screw on ABS equip vehicles either. You are right...that is just how the tire shop guys do it. Quality indeed. 



HotRodx10 said:


> I've only worked on one vehicle where I needed bearing grease (other than a little smear on the back of the pads to prevent squeaking). The other dozen vehicles I've changed brakes on, I took the wheel off, unbolted the caliper, at which point the rotor either fell off or I had smack it with a hammer once or twice, and then it fell off. Then I squeezed the pistons back into the caliper with a big C-clamp, dropped the new pads in place, slipped the new rotor into place, slipped the caliper over the rotor, bolted the caliper back on, and put the wheel back on. No grease; no seals; no muss, no fuss.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Seeing as the lug stud is completely encapsulated by the lug nut...not sure how stuff is getting stuck to it


I didn't say that. You're arguing with a statement from an article you linked to, and then quoted that line from.


Windows on Wash said:


> Get 100K out of set yet? When you do, I will consider doing it like you do.


You do what you want. If one of your wheels falls off, because you didn't listen to me (or the article *you* linked to), it's not my problem. I haven't had to replace any pads due to uneven wear yet (which is really the only problem caused by a slide pin getting stuck).


Windows on Wash said:


> Interesting that you are so worried about grease getting on the rotors...but don't mind smearing any on the back of the pads


In case you weren't aware, the pads don't spin, and the back of the pads is away from the rotors. The hub faces and the faces of the rotor do spin, and the centrifugal force would fling any excess goo from there directly onto the friction surface of the rotor.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)




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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> I didn't say that. You're arguing with a statement from an article you linked to, and then quoted that line from.
> 
> You do what you want. If one of your wheels falls off, because you didn't listen to me (or the article *you* linked to), it's not my problem. I haven't had to replace any pads due to uneven wear yet (which is really the only problem caused by a slide pin getting stuck).
> 
> In case you weren't aware, the pads don't spin, and the back of the pads is away from the rotors. The hub faces and the faces of the rotor do spin, and the centrifugal force would fling any excess goo from there directly onto the friction surface of the rotor.


Wuuuuut...? 

Pads don't spin? Imagine my shock? Do they get hot and does grease flow once it get hot enough. Good lucking thinking that grease doesn't flow when exposed to those pad backing plate temperatures under hard braking. Just the time that you want a lubricating material dripping off the back of your pad onto the rotor surface. Good idea. 

Maybe you missed the part...way early in, where I said was was putting only enough on the surface to slightly coat them. i.e....not enough to fling off. But you saw someone say anti-seize and just zero'ed in.

Well...I've worked on cars for 30 years at this point and have probably done 50 sets of brakes on various vehicles. Still waiting on that wheel to "fall off". 

I didn't hear you say if you get 70-100K out of brakes?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Do they get hot and does grease flow once it get hot enough. Good lucking thinking that grease doesn't flow when exposed to those pad backing plate temperatures under hard braking. Just the time that you want a lubricating material dripping off the back of your pad onto the rotor surface. Good idea.
> 
> Maybe you missed the part...way early in, where I said was was putting only enough on the surface to slightly coat them. i.e....not enough to fling off.


Interesting that you assume I put enough grease on the back of the pad to that it would drip off (I did say "smear", did I not?), but get irate with me assuming the same about you. Just like you don't know me, I don't know you, and more importantly, neither of us knows what someone else might read here and do improperly.

To that end, I will clarify my statements:

When I say I use a "smear" of grease on the back of the brake pads (which hasn't been necessary on any pads lately), I'm talking about a layer thin enough you can't see it, other than it's shiny. If you can see the color of the grease, it's too much. Btw, I use white lithium grease, which doesn't "flow", even at high temperatures. If I can see that it's white, it's too much.

I never said not to regrease the slide pins. I said I've checked the slide pins and the boots for them whenever I replace brake pads; I just haven't had occasion where the slide pins needed to be regreased. I go by the philosophy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If the boots are intact, and the caliper slides easily on the pins, why would I mess with something that's working and risk screwing it up?

WoW, you can do what works for you; I'll do what works for me, and others can decide for themselves what they want to do. No reason to be insulting and purposefully obtuse, and yes I apologize for my statements that were condescending or insulting. I was over the top on a couple of occasions, but it was out of concern for others who may read this thread and misapply some of what was said.

I still maintain that putting anti-seize compound anywhere on a brake rotor or lug studs is unnecessary, not done by the pros, and not recommended by any professional source that I've seen.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

The professionals also use impact guns to zip the nuts off and on. Most of the rest of us have to rely on a lug wrench or torque wrench.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

huesmann said:


> The professionals also use impact guns to zip the nuts off and on. Most of the rest of us have to rely on a lug wrench or torque wrench.


True in some cases (my tire shop does the final torquing of the lug nuts by hand), but the tools used are not relevant to the materials and procedures used. If the shop is doing it right, regardless of the tightening method, they should be getting the lug nuts to the specified torque (which, as mentioned is for "dry" studs).


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> Interesting that you assume I put enough grease on the back of the pad to that it would drip off (I did say "smear", did I not?), but get irate with me assuming the same about you. Just like you don't know me, I don't know you, and more importantly, neither of us knows what someone else might read here and do improperly.
> 
> To that end, I will clarify my statements:
> 
> ...


I concede your point about a smear of the grease. Yet, with all due respect, you assumed that I was "globing" on anti-seize to the extent that it was flinging all over creation. 

I would suggest you use the anti-squealing compound instead of grease as an FYI. Its specifically intended for that purpose and is more temperature insensitive. Lithium grease is nice, but if the brakes are undersized, the calipers can see 400 degrees which is above the melting temp on most lithium based greases. 

The, "_if it ain't broke, don't fix it_" mentality also extends to stuff like fluid flushes and servicing. If you aren't exchanging the brake fluid, let alone the blinker fluid, you are accelerating the wear of those highly sensitive components. Electric rack and pinions have eliminated much of the power steering failure issues, but if you aren't doing full fluid exchanges, your componentry is wearing prematurely. 

No worries. Good to see that we are both passionate about how we do things. I have had great luck with my methodology and will continue to do so as well. I have removed enough wheels that had to beat off with a sledge hammer, that I have decided that I will not swing them anymore.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> but if the brakes are undersized, the calipers can see 400 degrees which is above the melting temp on most lithium based greases.


High temperature wheel bearing grease, which is what I typically use has a drop point closer to 550 F...and my brakes aren't undersized or subject to hard use.


Windows on Wash said:


> I would suggest you use the anti-squealing compound instead of grease as an FYI. Its specifically intended for that purpose and is more temperature insensitive.


I probably should use the latex stuff, but I never seem to have it when I need it. Lately, the pads I've bought come with backing plates that have an anti-squeak coating, so they don't need anything.


Windows on Wash said:


> The, "_if it ain't broke, don't fix it_" mentality also extends to stuff like fluid flushes and servicing.


Not for me. Transmission fluid, and other things that have scheduled change intervals get done when required.


Windows on Wash said:


> I have removed enough wheels that had to beat off with a sledge hammer, that I have decided that I will not swing them anymore.


I here that. I can still swing a hammer at the rotors pretty well, or give the wheel a good kick if it needs it.

Done conservatively, I don't have an objection to a thin smear of anti-seize on the hub and rim surfaces. I still don't agree with putting anything on the threads. When it comes to keeping lug nuts tight without risking over-tensioning the bolts, friction is your friend.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Newer pads do, most times, come with the anti squeal pads. I still, depending on the car, use the anti-squeal compound. 

You going full fluid exchange? Same for brakes? 

Getting the rotors off is never an issue. I was more referring to remove a larger wheel that is fused to the face of the rotor plate. I have had to beat the tire with a 10lb, full length sledge. 

Never had and issue with a lug coming loose. Of course, I also heat cycle the wheels and check torque specifications as well.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> You going full fluid exchange? Same for brakes?


Full fluid change for transmission fluid and engine oil. I had over 300,000 miles on my Geo Metro without changing the brake fluid; no problems.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

HotRodx10 said:


> Full fluid change for transmission fluid and engine oil. I had over 300,000 miles on my Geo Metro without changing the brake fluid; no problems.


You and I know that anecdotal is hardly admissible as evidence. 

I also had 275,000 miles out of a 1985 Chevy Celebrity from an era of American cars that was more defined by their failures than successes. 

This is also as it was driven by a boy that was from age 16-22. Wanna bet which set of miles was harder...your 300K or my 275K.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Wanna bet which set of miles was harder...your 300K or my 275K.


'85 Chevy vs. '92 Geo? Neither one were known for being very durable. Obviously, doing the necessary maintenance in a timely manner was the key in both cases. 

I think we have followed this rabbit trail far enough, probably, so we should probably veer back on topic. Now, if I can just remember what the actual topic is supposed to be...


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> Getting the rotors off is never an issue. I was more referring to remove a larger wheel that is fused to the face of the rotor plate. I have had to beat the tire with a 10lb, full length sledge.


I generally resort to lowering the jack enough to pop the stuck wheel loose, after removing the lugs, of course.

This uses the weight of the vehicle as a hammer, .

Just do it slowly, gently, and the stuck wheel comes loose, then you jack it back up, and wire brush the crud away.


ED


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

de-nagorg said:


> I generally resort to lowering the jack enough to pop the stuck wheel loose, after removing the lugs, of course.
> 
> This uses the weight of the vehicle as a hammer, .
> 
> ...


That works. Less "doable" when you are on the side of the road changing a tire for someone that is stranded. I got stuck doing that for a gal one time and I sure as heck wasn't going to get "bested" by the Land Cruiser in this case when the "woman in distress" was as attractive as she was.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> This uses the weight of the vehicle as a hammer, .


Doesn't generally work for the hub-centric or hub-pilot type.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

It depends what the wheel is hung up on. If it's galled to the hub, putting it down and rocking it back and forth and sideways may help break it loose.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Good way to snap a stud or mess something else up too. Or...just put an anti corrosive agent on the wheel hub.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> Good way to snap a stud or mess something else up too. Or...just put an anti corrosive agent on the wheel hub.



Never put the full weight on a loose lug, even when installing, only let the jack down enough to get friction between the tire and ground, torque the lugs, then let it fully down.

ED


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## Gew (Jul 10, 2019)

I understand that it could be somewhat of a PITA unbolting all four discs for visual inspection, but it might (like stated by someone) be the right way of proceeding this.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Gew said:


> I understand that it could be somewhat of a PITA unbolting all four discs for visual inspection, but it might (like stated by someone) be the right way of proceeding this.


I'm not sure that would help with the OP's issue. Uneven thickness of the rotors by a few thousandth of an inch is enough to cause pulsing of the brakes, so a visual inspection probably won't identify where the problem is. It didn't on mine. The rotors on my pickup looked fine - no discoloration; nothing indicating a problem. The pulsing, which was very obvious before, is gone, so it was definitely the rotors I replaced. If the OP doesn't have a micrometer to check them, the least expensive way to fix the problem is to replace the rotors, starting with the front, since that's by far the most likely source of the problem.


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## LawrenceS (Oct 21, 2020)

HotRodx10 said:


> Done conservatively, I don't have an objection to a thin smear of anti-seize on the hub and rim surfaces. I still don't agree with putting anything on the threads. When it comes to keeping lug nuts tight without risking over-tensioning the bolts, friction is your friend.


As a professional mechanic, I agree I typically never lubricate studs. The exceptions being if a stud is damaged but safely repairable, I'll use penetrant while chasing the threads or sometimes I'll find studs with a white layer of corrosion on them that causes excess friction which either get chased or a little bit of lube. The other instance is when doing brakes, after I use a scotch bright disc on the hubs to clean rust off I'll hit them with a layer of spray white lithium to slow the rust build up and some will end up on the studs and I just leave it there. But I'd say anti seize is a no go, I'd even disagree with antiseize on the caliper bracket bolts, hell some manufacturers use loctite on those bolts.

Typically I use M77(77% moly grease by dow) on contact points ie the brackets and retainers(the bracket shims), by the book in the honda world they also suggest m77 on the backs of the pads and the backs of the pad shims but I've almost never had an issue with not lubing them and Silglyde on the slide pins(well I actually use high temp urea because my shop doesn't get the proper sil glyde). If I have an excessively rusty or corroded bracket or caliper bolt they will get some lube too but it's not that often.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't know who said anti-seize on the caliper bracket bolts? Twasn't me. 

So...sounds like most folks agree that some sort of anti corrosion coating on the hubs is fine.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

LawrenceS said:


> I'd even disagree with antiseize on the caliper bracket bolts, hell some manufacturers use loctite on those bolts.





Windows on Wash said:


> I don't know who said anti-seize on the caliper bracket bolts? Twasn't me.


That was me. I remember writing it, but I can't seem to find it. I believe I said something to the effect of that was the only place I'd consider using anti-seize compound. I won't now. I might use the medium strength loctite, though, since it allows for a consistent break-loose torque that is manageable for me.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

It's still going on?
Grease, as in *grease,* cakes under heat and locks threads. Greasing studs is basically caking lugs on them. Also, grease heavily collects dirt and dust, with similar results so, grease applied to the brake pads guides needs to be redone every tire rotation or, deal with unevenly worn pads later.
Antiseize has exactly the opposite application - to ensure, that lug *can be undone*, when needed, particularly, in field situation, when air gun is not available and Ms Molly has to rely on her arms strength. 
THAT IS IT. 
The ONLY time I ever apply ANTISEIZE, not grease, to rotor hat INSIDE is for Honda rotors, sometimes, Toyota ones, as they notoriously rust to the wheel hub, requiring major effort and skill to remove them. So rust cleaned, antiseize applied, back on they go.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Had a doozy of a time with Toyotas. Always do them now. I am not a small man either, and there are some that took me a good long while to bust loose.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

ukrkoz said:


> grease applied to the brake pads guides needs to be redone every tire rotation or, deal with unevenly worn pads later.


Every tire rotation? If you feel the need, have fun with that. As I said, I've never regreased the slide pins on any of mine, and while I don't have 100,000 miles on any of my brakes, yet, I have a few approaching 60,000 miles, with no uneven pad wear.

Sorry, were you referring to greasing the metal clips at the ends of the backing plate? Yeah, I haven't usually greased those either.


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## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

I use anti-seize on all my equipment lug nuts , have for over 40 yrs with no ill affects, actually have less trouble when using it.


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