# Home security system



## christopherjhar (Nov 19, 2015)

Hi, I am in trouble . The renovation plan makes me really stressed. Purchasing furniture, Home decor items etc. oops! What a headache! Now it's time to buy a security system for the whole safety of us and our properties. And really I do not have any idea of choosing one. What about a CCTV installation for a smart home security? One of my friends suggested me about 4 channel CCTV system from Canadian Security Professionals. Any other options?


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## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

i prefer ip cameras, you can look at them directly on computers and phones anywhere you have internet, some of them have internals sd card so no need to have computer recording all the time. also lot of them have wifi built-in so no cable except supply


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree. I like IP cameras better.

What kind of alarm system are you looking for... self installed? self monitored?

if you decide to have a company install and monitor, then be aware of the fact that they set the installer code and will not give it to yo so you will have to go through them for any maintenance or alterations.


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## Protocol. (May 31, 2012)

IP cameras with a server or dedicated nvr are the way to go.

Typically anybody familiar with poe devices, IP security systems or networking should be easily able to set up an IP camera system.

I am just in the process of getting a $15k system installed in the building i live in and had to do extensive research to find out what was the best for us. The system we went with was a brand called flir. 

Ultimately the most reliable will be something that is physically wired. Wireless cameras still aren't to the point where they are reliable enough, and even then you're still going to need a wire for power. 


Hopefully that helps.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

IP cams (wired and wifi) with BlueIris software running on a low power PC as server/recorder is a great setup. As for security, there are lots of ways to go. The "serious" systems like Ademco are great, and their wireless sensors are very reliable. Relatively cheap to monitor via VoIP companies like AlarmRelay. Honeywell Lynx security systems use the same protocol wireless and are more user and internet friendly.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

raylo32 said:


> As for security, there are lots of ways to go. The "serious" systems like Ademco are great, and their wireless sensors are very reliable. Relatively cheap to monitor via VoIP companies like AlarmRelay. Honeywell Lynx security systems use the same protocol wireless and are more user and internet friendly.


Do these systems just monitor or do they also alert?


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

They alert. They can dial out via copper phone line to a traditional monitoring service, they can dial out to a monitoring service via a cellular module, they can "dial" out to a VoIP monitoring service (monitoring company provides pre-provisioned VoIP module, that's what I use), and some can be set up to self monitor, i.e. have it call you. The video can also be set up to text, e-mail and/or record on motion. But that is tricky to set up to get it working without false positives for most camera placements. I just record 24/7 for forensics.



47_47 said:


> Do these systems just monitor or do they also alert?


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

raylo32 said:


> ... they can "dial" out to a VoIP monitoring service ...


*Note* that _the above is different_ from a digital communicator dialing out over a VoIP line (Vonage for example). To put it plainly, a digital communicator on a VoIP line rarely works.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I had a very difficult time finding a CCTV installer last year because I lived in the country and I had bought the cameras. I was trying to keep the cost down but the capital's spy shop seemed to be the only option. I naively thought that the electricians who advertised CCTV would come out but they wouldn't. I had done this in LA but it was quick and easy there. The spy shop here kept kept increasing the price. First, someone had to come out and look at the house then someone would come out to install then he wanted to add someone else at added price. He said the included cables might not be reliable, but they were. I think it's just a sales pitch. I had read that wireless is too easy to hack in this day and age. I just wanted the simplest setup because my neighbor was stealing my electricity and frequently trespassing. Finally, a friend who is retired highway patrol put the cameras high, high up in a few hrs for a vastly more reasonable price. I did the computer work even though I'm not a computer expert. I didn't do PTZ. The view from 8 cameras was clear in color and even surprisingly beautiful at sunset and sunrise - an unexpected benefit. There was more than enough cable, 8-60ft and 2-90ft and they worked just fine. The neighbor did pause the view from one camera, apparently with a device for 3 sec but then looked straight at the porch camera thru the rails at night. It was funny, actually. The only thing that clouded the view was the bugs at night! The porch lights are safer but light up the bugs and interfere with the infrared. The cameras were a tremendous deterrent to trespass and crime. Even the cops were careful of the cameras! I love these cameras! I'm pretty sure I don't have IP but I'm very happy with what I have and saved over $2000. Samsung Video Security System, 16 channel DVR, 10 camera bundle. I did need a long brush to dust them once in awhile because of the the farming dust & bugs. I kept it recording continuously and could go back 3 mths. It captured threatening movements, trespassing, fire smoke & wild animals. Audio requires a notification sign here. I used a cheap flat screen tv as a monitor.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

raylo32 said:


> and some can be set up to self monitor, i.e. have it call you.


Everybody and their grandmother carries a cell phone now. No sense paying some one to monitor when you can easily do it yourself.

Mine is self monitored (over internet)... Love it.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Read on another DIY chatroom post about about the question of cameras in the woods. I do regret not putting up the other two cameras with conduits facing toward the house ( if conduit is the appropriate term.) It is somewhat addicting


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

A security system is only as good as the person using it. At some point, you will grow tired of looking at recordings for something and just stop the FTP feed.

I have only two cameras in my house now. They are so if my wife cannot find me on one, she can use the other one downstairs, in case I fall, because of back problems.

I got tire of dealing with clearing out recordings on my NAS, because our neighborhood has had less problems in it. So it is only a live feed.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

My system cleans itself after 3 mths. If you want more excitement I can send you the ag fire setters that go home and leave the fire on, the trespasser/thief plus his son and the stalker :}


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Mine recycles the recordings every 2 weeks. Real time phone app is great for checking in on the doggie during the workday. 



Nik333 said:


> My system cleans itself after 3 mths. If you want more excitement I can send you the ag fire setters that go home and leave the fire on, the trespasser/thief plus his son and the stalker :}


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## zolakk (Nov 28, 2012)

For what it's worth, check with your homeowner's insurance (if you have any). We didn't want to pay for a monitored solution but found that with the discount from insurance it more than paid for itself - alarm is $50/mo and got us an $80/mo reduction in insurance. The caveat to that is that most (if not all) insurance companies will offer a reduction if it's professionally installed and monitored so anything you put in yourself will likely not be covered


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## tajson (Nov 26, 2015)

Only a reliable CCTV, I highly recommend that.


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## Nobr8ks (Sep 30, 2015)

I've assisted a few home owners with their DIY alarms and surveillance needs, not that anyone should believe me. Google is your friend.

IP/3MP cameras really are best. Simplicity reasons I like Swann & Q-see NVR's, both offer free DDNS and most have an open bay for an additional hard drive. 

Alarm- I like the Vista 20p combined with _Envisalink Internet Alert Module_. 

Depending on the NVR selection, you can interconnect the 2 to improve tamper proof.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nik333 said:


> I had a very difficult time finding a CCTV installer last year because I lived in the country and I had bought the cameras. I was trying to keep the cost down but the capital's spy shop seemed to be the only option. I naively thought that the electricians who advertised CCTV would come out but they wouldn't. I had done this in LA but it was quick and easy there. The spy shop here kept kept increasing the price. First, someone had to come out and look at the house then someone would come out to install then he wanted to add someone else at added price. He said the included cables might not be reliable, but they were. I think it's just a sales pitch. I had read that wireless is too easy to hack in this day and age. I just wanted the simplest setup because my neighbor was stealing my electricity and frequently trespassing. Finally, a friend who is retired highway patrol put the cameras high, high up in a few hrs for a vastly more reasonable price. I did the computer work even though I'm not a computer expert. I didn't do PTZ. The view from 8 cameras was clear in color and even surprisingly beautiful at sunset and sunrise - an unexpected benefit. There was more than enough cable, 8-60ft and 2-90ft and they worked just fine. The neighbor did pause the view from one camera, apparently with a device for 3 sec but then looked straight at the porch camera thru the rails at night. It was funny, actually. The only thing that clouded the view was the bugs at night! The porch lights are safer but light up the bugs and interfere with the infrared. The cameras were a tremendous deterrent to trespass and crime. Even the cops were careful of the cameras! I love these cameras! I'm pretty sure I don't have IP but I'm very happy with what I have and saved over $2000. Samsung Video Security System, 16 channel DVR, 10 camera bundle. I did need a long brush to dust them once in awhile because of the the farming dust & bugs. I kept it recording continuously and could go back 3 mths. It captured threatening movements, trespassing, fire smoke & wild animals. Audio requires a notification sign here. I used a cheap flat screen tv as a monitor.


Did the camera solve the electric stealing or trespassing problem? Has the neighbor or anyone else ever arrested and charged?


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Just having the cameras up and not even set up yet made a huge difference. The neighbor thief did test it out with some kind of device to pause it while he banged the wall but 3 sec isn't very long & I could see him on the recording looking thru the porch rails 3 sec later. Funny. 

I think it's very interesting who notices the cameras and who doesn't. My new neighbor setup all his parties on the other side of the house from the cameras :} When an auto accident appraiser came ( not my fault :}, he paused at the end of the drive!

I'm still debating pursuing the electricity thief legally and what purpose it would accomplish. I do have proof. He's an absolute egomaniac with no conscience and that can make court more difficult - had been stealing District Ag water for 3 yrs when I moved in and poured it on my land. During a drought. It's 6x more expensive than regular water. I'm learning about Jeffersonian counties. These are the people who want to secede from California! I can tell he can't live very long with his lifestyle. Let God sort it out? His son is just as nutty and on meth. It might literally cost my life. If I could write well, I would write a book! Thanks for asking and Happy Thanksgiving. :wink2:


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

zolakk said:


> For what it's worth, check with your homeowner's insurance (if you have any). We didn't want to pay for a monitored solution but found that with the discount from insurance it more than paid for itself - alarm is $50/mo and got us an $80/mo reduction in insurance.


Sounds great.... until you work service calls into the picture.

If you go pro you also will have to consider the service charges. Most companies who supply and install equipment use their own installer code which prevents the home owner from doing their own repair/maintenance work. This means you must call the installer to attend all service calls, additions, and/or modifications... and that can get expensive.


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

*All may not be as it seems!*

I think you may be over-simplifying what can become a complicated and expensive issue. We know that a system's programming determines how it operates. Program changes can have unintended consequences the user may not realize. Sometimes manufacturers issue an addendum because a panel doesn't always act the way it should with certain programming. They make the addendum available, but only notify their customers; the distributors.

 What if you built a house for someone, they moved load-bearing walls, the house collapsed on them and they brought suit against you? You aren't responsible for their actions, but you still have the expense of defending yourself. Not to mention the suit would damage your reputation as a builder. Although legal language in alarm company contracts limits and sets maximum liability based on cost of services rendered, in any legal action, no matter how frivolous, the alarm company must defend itself and its reputation. To minimize liability they don't allow user access to programming during the term of the contract; I certainly didn't!

My contracts stated in plain language (to the disgust of my attorney, but with the approval of my E&O carrier) that:


Programming determined how the system operate, and 
User was not allowed to program anything other than user codes, and
Communications programming was and remained the property of the company, and
Upon termination of the contract for any reason, the company retained the option to, at its expense, remove communications programming and afterward test the panel for proper operation, and
If the company chose to exercise that option (we _always_ did), it had to notify the customer, effect the removal within 15 business days of termination date, that customer would readily grant reasonable access to allow removal of communication programming and we would test system after removal to verifyproper operation, and
At terminating customer's request, we would at no charge change and furnish a programming code, but *only* after they signed a form stating that company had tested the system, found it to be operating properly, they agreed it was operating properly, they now had access to system programming and that the company was no longer responsible for the manner in which the panel operated.
Some companies install systems at a loss and depend on monitoring to eventually make a profit and at least one company installed them FREE***. Although neither business model makes much sense to me, in these cases, I agree with their right to not allow the panel to be reprogrammed. They made an investment in the system and customer by installing at a loss and they have a right to protect that investment by not allowing the panel to be used in a manner that does not compensate them. 

***What you gain in one place, you have togive up in another; It may not cost you as much up front, but you *will* pay later.


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## lindargarcia1 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thank you


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

GrayHair said:


> I think you may be over-simplifying what can become a complicated and expensive issue. We know that a system's programming determines how it operates. Program changes can have unintended consequences the user may not realize. Sometimes manufacturers issue an addendum because a panel doesn't always act the way it should with certain programming. They make the addendum available, but only notify their customers; the distributors.


I don't necessarily disagree with you, on the other hand this is a diy site and most people coming here are looking for possible diy answers (for their own personal use) and have the right to know about installer codes and how it's going to cost you extra money if you go the commercial route. 

I know of quite a few people who didn't understand that there was going to be an installer code blocking them from any and all alterations and maintenance (because they were specifically not told) and have regretted their decision because of it.

As for things becoming "complicated and expensive" I think that would be up to the ability of the diy'er. I'm handy with my hands and have very little previous knowledge of alarm systems prior to my self install/self monitor, and my system has operated flawlessly for 2 years now.... I have yet to see "complicated and expensive".


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

All I was addressing was why alarm companies don't allow customers access to system programming. E&O premiums and attorney fees are a big but necessary expense for any professional alarm company. Ridiculous lawsuits with their even more ridiculous judgements plauge all businesses and help drive prices up; part of why buying a cup of "hot coffee" costs more by volume than buying gasoline!

I have no objection to DIY alarm systems. However, in a business historically fraught with potential liability, it makes no sense to project that potential by allowing someone else to work on a system they installed. Particularly for the warranty period.

I admit my contracts were unusual. I read so many contracts that only an attorney could understand, I swore I would never have one the average adult couldn't understand. The necessary "legalesse" was always followed by an explanation in non-legal terms. It still amazed me that most people would sign a contract without even reading it, let alone asking questions! Maybe it was because they didn't expect to be able to understand it.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

GrayHair said:


> I have no objection to DIY alarm systems. However, in a business historically fraught with potential liability, it makes no sense to project that potential by allowing someone else to work on a system they installed. Particularly for the warranty period.


No one has suggested diy work should be allowed on a pro supply/install. It has simply been noted that it CAN'T be done because installers use a unique code to prevent it. Some people don't know this and are not told. Therefore one should be prepared to dish out service fee money anytime alteration and/or maintenance needs to be done.... and that can get expensive.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Thank you for presenting both sides of the spectrum, the alarm companies' perspective and the individual DIYer's. It explains a lot.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

raylo32 said:


> IP cams (wired and wifi) with BlueIris software running on a low power PC as server/recorder is a great setup. As for security, there are lots of ways to go. The "serious" systems like Ademco are great, and their wireless sensors are very reliable. Relatively cheap to monitor via VoIP companies like AlarmRelay. Honeywell Lynx security systems use the same protocol wireless and are more user and internet friendly.


Blue Iris won't run on a low-power PC. It requires a pretty powerful late-model CPU to handle more than a couple of cameras. The very best solution would be quality cameras from a single vendor. I have found that all of the OEM software packages that came with my many-vendor system outperform any of the several multi-vendor software apps. 

I have a minimum of two NVRs recording each camera. I found some very cheap 16 channel NVRs that I use as secondary or tertiary recording for some of my cameras. You'll have a hard time finding the recorders in my house and, even should you find one, it is doubtful that you would find them all. A camera is no good if the video is stolen - so my key cameras also store motion video to the Internet. It always cracks me up to see thieves steal the camera but they're too stupid to understand that the video is recorded.

There are a lot of concerns when designing a CCTV system. I have built my own 13 (so far) camera IP camera system. I started with high-end analog and quickly realized that was a mistake as IP camera prices dropped tremendously over the last couple years. 

Many states have legal requirements for prosecution. For a camera video to be used as evidence in court you may find some number of vertical lines or pixels required in the face - perhaps 200 to even as high as 400 lines of just face. Also, do you want to be that video on the news where the video is so bad that it makes the rest of us afraid because bad video must certainly encourage the bad guys or do you want to be the one on news with the video where the perpetrator is very easily identified?

There are, in general, two different roles for your cameras. There's detection or tracking of someone moving around your property - generally good for monitored video or perhaps in tracking ingress or egress routes. Then there's choke point monitoring. Choke point cameras should be those relatively close-up cameras that provide that detailed quality video for prosecution. Every choke point that must be passed to get into our out of your buildings or to get access to your valuables should have a choke-point camera. Your yard, in general, just needs a wider angle, more general camera.

Make sure you have cameras watching cameras. If you have weak coverage in this, a smart thief (if there is such a thing) could unwind your entire system, one camera at a time.

Of course any camera system is easily defeated with a mask so it should never be your only protection. It does always crack me up to see on YouTube or the news where some thief comes in with a hoodie and hat and keeps his face down but they always tend to sneak one quick look up to the camera to see if it is looking at them.

I build my alarm system with a DSC system. Probably other professional systems would work as well. I would definitely suggest for DIYers that they build their own rather than purchase with monitoring. That way you can choose your own monitoring service and you own the system. Some monitoring companies, though, will set master passwords on your system and will either never give that to you or will only give it to you after resetting your system. Since the alarm panel, itself, is very inexpensive, buy a spare when you buy the original. That gives you the repair part on hand, if needed, and the rebuilding part on hand should you get into contract issues trying to access your own property.

My system is highly customized. Cutting any siren wire will trigger the alarm. Multiple sirens are driven by multiple power supplies. Once triggered, the sirens will run regardless of power to, or even existence of, the remainder of the alarm system. Given enough time, they could go around the house with a ladder and kill all of the sirens but my goal is to take away their comfort so they spend all the time they dare stay in the house to try to silence the alarm system - and still they will fail. This, of course, does not help with smash-and-grab burglars. The best I did for this is to offer all my neighbors 1000 dollars for a police report including description of a perpetrator, 1500 dollars for identifying a perpetrator, 2000 dollars if a perpetrator is arrested based on their report and 2500 dollars if the perpetrator is convicted. 

Additionally, I installed ELK-120 driven speakers with outside PIR sensors. Should anyone approach any potential entrance to my house the ELK-120's announce their arrival to us at volumes loud enough to wake us from sleep and let the person approaching know we're aware that they're there. Hopefully this discourages potential thieves so they go to a neighbor's house instead of mine.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with you, on the other hand this is a diy site and most people coming here are looking for possible diy answers (for their own personal use) and have the right to know about installer codes and how it's going to cost you extra money if you go the commercial route.
> 
> I know of quite a few people who didn't understand that there was going to be an installer code blocking them from any and all alterations and maintenance (because they were specifically not told) and have regretted their decision because of it.
> 
> As for things becoming "complicated and expensive" I think that would be up to the ability of the diy'er. I'm handy with my hands and have very little previous knowledge of alarm systems prior to my self install/self monitor, and my system has operated flawlessly for 2 years now.... I have yet to see "complicated and expensive".


I'm a strong-willed DIYer and have experience in alarm and video systems (30 years ago) but have done electronics and computer work for 40+ years. I think that I'm just about as expert as any DIYer not doing it full time could be. 

Even so, I think the DIY ends at the signing of the contract with monitoring. I did a ton of DIY configuration and custom electronics and controllers in my alarm system. But I ask the monitoring company to alert me and the police and expect them to do it. To commit that they will do that, they have to know that the system will alert them. Once I sign the contract, then, if I want my system changed, I call them. We discuss the ins and outs of the change, negotiate on who will do what and when - with programming always being them and wiring always being me. I understand the programming of my system and I am part of the discussion but I leave that work for them to do.

I don't bring my surgical tools to the hospital. I DIY my health but when I need some help, I let the helper do their part.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Sounds like you have a very sophisticated setup, but I have to quibble with the quote below. Depends on how you define the term "low power". Mine is happily running 6 cams on max settings with an Intel Core i3 with 4 GB RAM and onboard CPU graphics. This is not even the latest CPU, this unit has been running 24/7 for about 3 or 4 years now, draws about 40 watts. This a far cry from my gaming PC with last gen Core i7 and dedicated graphics card that idles around 300 watts.

This BI PC also serves double duty as an HTPC and simultaneously plays recorded hi def TV (recorded with MediaCenter) to local TV or streams to others via wifi. And while it might be easier for a new user's learning curve to have all the same cams BI doesn't care what brand (almost, not DropCam), they all work together just fine. The latest really low power ARMs might be able to run BI but I haven't really looked into it since I find my setup acceptable for now.



dalepres said:


> Blue Iris won't run on a low-power PC.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

dalepres said:


> Even so, I think the DIY ends at the signing of the contract with monitoring.


I never said anything different.

What I'm saying is don't count on diy'ing even if you do sign a contract and STILL believe you have the right to diy. Most people don't know about the installer code and don't know that you CAN'T diy an pro installed system because of that installer code.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I beg to differ. I installed my Ademco system and have the installer code. IIRC they can always be reset to a default installer code that is given in the manual. It's been 17 years so I don't remember exactly how without going to the manual... but my system is still humming along and I still can access it at will at the installer/admin level. They could never sell these to DIYs if they didn't give you access to the installer codes. Plus, after your contract is up and if you own the equipment the new monitoring company can talk you through making the necessary changes. 



Bob Sanders said:


> I never said anything different.
> 
> What I'm saying is don't count on diy'ing even if you do sign a contract and STILL believe you have the right to diy. Most people don't know about the installer code and don't know that you CAN'T diy an pro installed system because of that installer code.


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## Nobr8ks (Sep 30, 2015)

WOW! thought I was a geek (Z2Vlaw) but some of you are borderline something else...

For you normal DIY people looking into home security, Google "Honeywell Vista20p". Lot's of online resource with step by step videos. Next, Google "Envisalink", it's plug n play device that's compatible with Honeywell that connects system to internet, allowing complete control via smartphone, also sends alerts mms/sms/email.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Nobr8ks said:


> WOW! thought I was a geek (Z2Vlaw) but some of you are borderline something else...
> 
> For you normal DIY people looking into home security, Google "Honeywell Vista20p". Lot's of online resource with step by step videos. Next, Google "Envisalink", it's plug n play device that's compatible with Honeywell that connects system to internet, allowing complete control via smartphone, also sends alerts mms/sms/email.


:wink2:Haha! Maybe detail-oriented and competitive? Wish you had been around for the older woman who just asked for a recommendation :}


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

raylo32 said:


> I beg to differ. I installed my Ademco system and have the installer code.


Not talking about a self installed system. I have my own self installed system complete with my own installer code. What is being referred to here is a *PRO install with contract*


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Nobr8ks said:


> WOW! thought I was a geek (Z2Vlaw) but some of you are borderline something else...
> 
> For you normal DIY people looking into home security, Google "Honeywell Vista20p". Lot's of online resource with step by step videos. Next, Google "Envisalink", it's plug n play device that's compatible with Honeywell that connects system to internet, allowing complete control via smartphone, also sends alerts mms/sms/email.


I have DSC with envisalink. Great system.
Envisalink is compatible with both DSC and Honeywell


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## Nobr8ks (Sep 30, 2015)

Nik333 said:


> :wink2:Haha! Maybe detail-oriented and competitive? Wish you had been around for the older woman who just asked for a recommendation :}


I am all about over engineering (Prior to retirement), now it's about simplicity.

The other day was teaching some highschool kids basic cryptology- Caesar Cipher (ROT13/25 stuff). These kids are already proficient using Python (I started out with punch cards). These kids are extremely detailed... and scary competitive.

like some users here? maybe.....

Let me just say... I can't cut a piece of wood straight with a table saw.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I just realized while rereading the thread, that maybe I got more than a financial break with having a cop put up my cameras. They covered all windows & doors, porch, both sets of steps, driveway, back orchard roads, each camera covered another, covered car fr 2 angles, main road, woods access, etc, and breaker box!


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

LOL, punch cards. I started with those, too. Back then the old joke was to get hold of your roomie's punch card deck and shuffle it! Not sure about kids today.... many of the young 'uns in my extended family are ultimate slackers, way more than we ever were.



Nobr8ks said:


> I am all about over engineering (Prior to retirement), now it's about simplicity.
> 
> The other day was teaching some highschool kids basic cryptology- Caesar Cipher (ROT13/25 stuff). These kids are already proficient using Python (I started out with punch cards). These kids are extremely detailed... and scary competitive.
> 
> ...


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Understand, but when your contract is up and IF you own the equipment, the installer code can be reset. Power down and then on restart there is a key sequence or somesuch. It's been a long time... But the new monitoring company will know how to do it even if the owner doesn't. IOW the equipment is not locked for life to the original installer.



Bob Sanders said:


> Not talking about a self installed system. I have my own self installed system complete with my own installer code. What is being referred to here is a *PRO install with contract*


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

raylo32 said:


> Understand, but when your contract is up and IF you own the equipment, the installer code can be reset.


Yes. Very much like a cell phone. You have the right to have it unlocked after you have paid for the system and fulfilled the contract. But by then they have made their million and one dollars from you and they don't care.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> I never said anything different.
> 
> What I'm saying is don't count on diy'ing even if you do sign a contract and STILL believe you have the right to diy. Most people don't know about the installer code and don't know that you CAN'T diy an pro installed system because of that installer code.


We're violently agreeing.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

raylo32 said:


> I beg to differ. I installed my Ademco system and have the installer code. IIRC they can always be reset to a default installer code that is given in the manual. It's been 17 years so I don't remember exactly how without going to the manual... but my system is still humming along and I still can access it at will at the installer/admin level. They could never sell these to DIYs if they didn't give you access to the installer codes. Plus, after your contract is up and if you own the equipment the new monitoring company can talk you through making the necessary changes.


What you're saying and what your experience is describes how it should be. But I've read plenty of not-quite-horror stories from folks who had the really big name monitoring services or less-than-scrupulous small monitoring services being locked out of their systems. 

I don't think anyone implied that these problems always happen; I think the idea was to watch out for these potential issues and discuss system access with your monitoring service before signing the contract - and read the contract to make sure it aligns with what the discussion indicated.


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