# Vinyl siding, what goes underneath?



## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Well I imagine being in Alabama you will want to air condition that shop....correct?

If so you will want to insulate, 

I would use OSB followed by 2" XPS (you could just use the XPS no OSB) then siding on top of that. You will have to use long nails into the studs of course.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes I am in Alabama, and no I do not wish to air condition. This will simply be more or less a storage shed or small garage. It just needs to look nice on the outside. I live in a neighborhood with a homeowners association, and their rules dictate that it be finished neatly and all that jazz.

I really wish I didn't have to resort to vinyl siding, but I don't really know of any other decent wall coverings that look good and are cheap. I will basically have to learn vinyl siding, and buy the tools for it as well in order to do it myself. 

Hardi backer or Hardi planks have been mentioned, but I'm not so sure about those.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

OK---no insulation

Studs then OSB then Tyvek Wrap or tar paper then siding


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Is there a minimum thickness I need to go with on the OSB?


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

I wouldn't use anything less than 1/2"


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

Jackofall1 said:


> OK---no insulation
> 
> Studs then OSB then Tyvek Wrap or tar paper then siding



Agree with this, except I would recommend going with a zip system sheathing rather than standard OSB and then Tyvek. The water barrier is built into the sheathing, and all that is needed to seal is the tape along the seams. Siding goes right on top of the zip sheathing.

http://www.zipsystem.com/

If you have any step downs in your structure (i.e., it's not basically level across all four sides), then you'll need to make sure you get the starter strip started and leveled correctly. Otherwise, the step downs may not match up when you bring the siding together.


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## IHICH2011 (Jan 7, 2011)

AgentW said:


> Agree with this, except I would recommend going with a zip system sheathing rather than standard OSB and then Tyvek. The water barrier is built into the sheathing, and all that is needed to seal is the tape along the seams. Siding goes right on top of the zip sheathing.
> 
> http://www.zipsystem.com/
> 
> If you have any step downs in your structure (i.e., it's not basically level across all four sides), then you'll need to make sure you get the starter strip started and leveled correctly. Otherwise, the step downs may not match up when you bring the siding together.


I agree..If you can find a supplier. The new ZIP panels are great. They dont require the Tyvek house wraps cutting down on labor. Install the ZIP sheathing and seal the seams with tape, install the siding and you are done. I really think the ZIP sheathing system is just a tip of new sheathing systems to come over the next few years.:thumbup:

Mike - IHICH2011


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I would not use OSB as it holds the moisture a long time, easy to rot; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-038-mind-the-gap-eh/?searchterm=foam%20board%20in%20walls

Alabama has 56" annual rainfall, Seattle has36' and they don't use OSB; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNFJ2MdFsnNbhi5K0LFgRmKEJSz4eA&cad=rja
If you need more information on OSB, let me know....
I believe the zip system is a denser OSB, even harder/longer for water to leave and dry out.... 
Gary


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## Dspecht (Jan 12, 2011)

J S Machine said:


> I have decided to do vinyl siding on this shop I am about to build, and I'm not sure how to do it. I have a read a few tutorials online and some other things, but I can't find all the info I need. This will be a small light frame construction building, and 2x4's will be used for the frame.
> 
> (I think) in the past I have seen OSB used, and then it is covered in tar paper, and then finally with vinyl siding. Is this correct? If so, how thick does the OSB need to be? The studs will be on 16" centers.


I have done siding on and off for approximately 10 yrs you just want a nice looking finish and keep the cost down don't worry about all of these fancy systems they are not necessary 3/8 osb is fine and then a single layer of tyvek or typar which is basically homehardware brand tyvek or a double layer of 30 minute exterior siding tar paper, as long as there is no way for the water to get behind the siding the paper is just working as a vapor barrier between the wood and vinyl you don't have to worry about the osb holding water because it shouldnt be wet vinyl siding is super easy you shouldnt have a problem


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

7/16'' will meet minimum requirements for vinyl siding,i like to see a seperate wrb, 15lb felt is fine


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## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

7/16" OSB, #30 felt and side away.

Vinyl siding isn't as easy as many people believe. You need to follow specific spacing recommendations, nailing specifications and impliment proper flashing details for a quality installation.

My advice is to educate yourself first. It'll be a worthy investment.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Like I said, I like the idea of vinyl siding, I just hope I don't have to buy a bunch of tools to do it. There are other outer layer finishing techniques, but I feel like vinyl siding will be the most cost effective. I'm sure I can figure it out, I just want to do it myself. I don't want to pay anybody to do anything because then I won't have the satisfaction of learning it and doing it. This whole project has been a dream come true, actualy building something myself and having a sense of accomplishment. I'll admit I've been a bit overwhelmed at times, but having great advice and guidance made it easier to do, and I learned how it is done. 

I know the worst part of the storm is just ahead, but I am confident I can do it. I'm trying to get a materials list up so that I can get the materials bought. 

2 more questions.

I know I will probably use 15w felt on the roof. It will have a regular 3 tab shingle roof, which i still have to learn to do. 

On the sides, under the vinyl, I think I will use 30w. Is there any real advantage to using 30w here? 

Also, I see loneframer has used staples to attach the felt to his walls before siding. Is this acceptable? What about on the roof? is a staple gun good to attach the felt before shingles go down?


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

A point here:



> as long as there is no way for the water to get behind the siding


If you're using vinyl siding, water will get behind it. Vinyl siding just acts as a protection barrier for the sheathing from driving rain, wind, sun, and full on exposure. If you're expecting the vinyl siding to fully stop water penetration, then you're starting off going in the wrong direction.

There's a reason that vinyl siding has weep holes at the bottom. It's because water will get back there, regardless of how well you put the siding up, and it needs to be brought away from the house, and also allowed air to dry out.



> Like I said, I like the idea of vinyl siding, I just hope I don't have to buy a bunch of tools to do it


I just did my entire house and the basic tools you will need include (other than the materials you need to buy for the siding... i.e., j and f channel, starter strips, siding, undersill trim, corner pieces... inside and out, if necessary): 
- hammer
- nails (1.5" galvanized roofing nails)
- snips (Wiss MetalMaster Aviation Snips work for me)
- a diamond blade (for cutting the siding... or turn your normal blade so the teeth rotate backwards, otherwise you'll rip the siding)
- level (may need a 6', 3', and or a torpedo depending on what size sections you'll have as you work up)
- caulking (always good to have. As you work up, you may find that you pull out some pieces of siding and then replace. I'd recommend that, if you cannot use the same nail holes when replacing, caulking them up. I've seen this not done and water penetration into the interior as a result)
- Tar paper (I used this on the corners. While the zip board is completeyl sealed, I still prefer the extra protection)
- staple gun (used this to put up the tar paper)


Beyond that, you shouldn't need too much else (unless I'm completely forgetting something. In which case, I'm sure I'll be reminded.  )


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

> I believe the zip system is a denser OSB, even harder/longer for water to leave and dry out....


The zip system actually has a water proof membrane on the exterior. Once installed, and taped, water just runs down in sheets and does not penetrate the zip board. I was extremely impressed with this material, as we had some extra pieces sitting out on the side of our house, that went through all sorts of nasty weather, and it stayed true with almost no warping, splitting, etc... I've seen OSB go to hell under much nicer conditions.


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## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

J S Machine said:


> Like I said, I like the idea of vinyl siding, I just hope I don't have to buy a bunch of tools to do it. There are other outer layer finishing techniques, but I feel like vinyl siding will be the most cost effective. I'm sure I can figure it out, I just want to do it myself. I don't want to pay anybody to do anything because then I won't have the satisfaction of learning it and doing it. This whole project has been a dream come true, actualy building something myself and having a sense of accomplishment. I'll admit I've been a bit overwhelmed at times, but having great advice and guidance made it easier to do, and I learned how it is done.
> 
> I know the worst part of the storm is just ahead, but I am confident I can do it. I'm trying to get a materials list up so that I can get the materials bought.
> 
> ...


 I've been building homes for over 25 years and have never seen anyone use anything but staples for applying felt, or Tyvek for that matter.

Cap staplers have been getting more popular, but I've yet to see one used in this application.

I prefer #30 felt because #15 ain't what it used to be.

Also, there are different grades of felts and building papers.

Over the years, I saw Other types of housewraps come and co, some are still around, but most builders that I do work for have gone back to felt after cronic problems related to other products and installation techniques.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

a vinyl siding panel actually is water proof,water problems will usually only manifest itself at the penetrations,there can be some condensation forming on the backside but the very good ''breathabilty'' of un insulated vinyl siding makes it one of the most goofproof cladding out there

for this small outbuilding you don't need any high tech stuff

http://www.vinylsiding.org/installation/manual/index.asp


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> a vinyl siding panel actually is water proof,water problems will usually only manifest itself at the penetrations,there can be some condensation forming on the backside but the very good ''breathabilty'' of un insulated vinyl siding makes it one of the most goofproof cladding out there
> 
> for this small outbuilding you don't need any high tech stuff
> 
> http://www.vinylsiding.org/installation/manual/index.asp


Thank you for this information :thumbsup:


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## CookeCarpentry (Oct 17, 2009)

loneframer said:


> I've been building homes for over 25 years and have never seen anyone use anything but staples for applying felt, or Tyvek for that matter.
> 
> Cap staplers have been getting more popular, but I've yet to see one used in this application.
> 
> ...


I recently switched to cap staples for installing Tyvek. But that is mainly because it does not get sided immediately, and it is in adherence with Tyvek's installation and warranty. That being said, if it is going to be covered relatively quickly, a slap stapler (hammer tacker) would work just as well. 

Just make sure to overlap your seams and if you want to go the extra mile, you could use a seam tape by Dupont for Tyvek. Also, spend some time researching correct ways to flash windows and doors.

Loneframer posted a good picture of window flashing in one of his earlier pics.


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## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

I agree with Tom. Simple installation procedures will suffice. The intersections at trim details are almost always culprit to water intrusion. Simple flashing details will divert water back to daylight. The problem is, many installers ignore these details for one reason or another.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm trying to figure up all the OSB I will need, and I wonder if OSB is acceptable for sofit panels. Do I need to use plywood here or will OSB be work?


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

J S Machine said:


> I'm trying to figure up all the OSB I will need, and I wonder if OSB is acceptable for sofit panels. Do I need to use plywood here or will OSB be work?


OSB will not work. If you, you can use 3/8" ac exterior plywood or you can use a 1x6, 8, 10 or 12 depending on your overhang primed pine or 1x azek for the soffit.

My mistake here. You use vinyl soffit. You don't need any wood at all for soffit.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I figured OSB might not be the thing of choice. Is there any minimum thickness here for plywood? I have 1' overhangs all the way around.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

J S Machine said:


> I figured OSB might not be the thing of choice. Is there any minimum thickness here for plywood? I have 1' overhangs all the way around.


Read my post above you don't need any wood soffit since you're putting vinyl siding on. You will use vinyl soffits.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes I see that, but doesn't the vinyl have to have something to attach to?


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

J S Machine said:


> Yes I see that, but doesn't the vinyl have to have something to attach to?


You'll use F and J channel. The F channel will go against the sheathing and the J channel attached to the sub-fascia. The soffits will then be put into the J and F channel and snapped together. You can secure the soffit to the cross trusses above every few soffits to secure them in place.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I see on page 33 of the instructions posted earlier. It doesn't look like there is any backing, as you are suggesting. If this is the case, it will save me from having to frame all the cornice return and all that. So it is just vinyl stretching in between the bottom of the fascia and the actual wall - secured by J and F channels? 

This would be great because it will save me money on lumber costs.


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

J S Machine said:


> I see on page 33 of the instructions posted earlier. It doesn't look like there is any backing, as you are suggesting. If this is the case, it will save me from having to frame all the cornice return and all that. So it is just vinyl stretching in between the bottom of the fascia and the actual wall - secured by J and F channels?
> 
> This would be great because it will save me money on lumber costs.


Correct, there is no backing. Just vinyl soffits held in place by the J and F channels.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

you really just need a receiver at the wall,you can nail the other end of the soffit to the fascia board and then cap with aluminum trim


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## AgentW (Dec 1, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> you really just need a receiver at the wall,you can nail the other end of the soffit to the fascia board and then cap with aluminum trim


Very true.. I've just never been a fan of aluminum trim.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> you really just need a receiver at the wall,you can nail the other end of the soffit to the fascia board and then cap with aluminum trim


can you provide an illustration of this by chance?


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

J S Machine said:


> can you provide an illustration of this by chance?


You can use a 2x4 or 2x6 fascia. The soffit will get nailed to the bottom of the fascia. Up against the wall there will be a F channel nailed to the sheathing. The F is upside down. The two lines of the F is where the end of the soffit slips into.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

J S Machine said:


> can you provide an illustration of this by chance?


Hope this will help.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I see. I wonder if it is important if I use a 2x for my fascia. I had originally figured and planed for 1x's. My rafters are on 16" centers. here is an example of the area that most concerns me. This little area right here will most likely require some special attention and I'm not sure how to do it.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/vinyl-corner-install-problem-90955/


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Big Thanks folks. I just might be bale to figure some of this out on my own with this help 

Any places to purchase vinyl other than the box stores?


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