# What do you think about a ‘smart ladder’?



## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

A little bit of education for the user would be better. Having worked off of ladders my whole life I don't think much about the angle the ladder is set on, just set it instinctively. Most extensions ladders today are aluminum with square top rungs. If the flat edge of the rung is level [or close to it] the ladder is set at the proper angle.

Anything electronic built into a ladder would have a short life as they tend to get knocked around a good bit.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi cherry,
IMO I would put the idea in the "silly one" category. Ladders already have safety labels all over them that few to no one ever reads. If an electronic beeper sounded while I was climbing a ladder that would be the last sound it ever made, I'm heavy and frequently exceed the ratings on my ladders. Am I going out to replace all of them with some super duty ones, not.

I buy good brands and use them as wisely as possible, and no beepers please.

Bud


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Feedback at 24' in the air because the leg is slipping isn't going to stop the problem, only tell the coroner what happened. You have to make sure of things before you go up, and as Mark said, any electronics will be short lived.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> If an electronic beeper sounded while I was climbing a ladder that would be the last sound it ever made


Bud, you made me laugh! :biggrin:


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

Does this post tell you anything about who designed a lot of the other "safety" features preventing you from doing useful work.


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## cherrypinata (Aug 19, 2017)

Thanks for the advice! You guys raise some interesting perspectives that I hadn’t thought about yet.

If I were to still go ahead with the idea, robustness / durability and a good non-annoying user interface would be seriously critical issues to be addressed (based on your reactions!), if it were possible or viable to do so. I’ll keep this in mind.

My main intention with this idea was with helping educate inexperienced users, though Bud does raise a good point about the over-abundance already of safety labels. At the very least, maybe the monitoring functionality might help some people fix any old habits like overreaching as a preventative measure (though, would that justify the added cost?). 

It would also be interesting to see whether someone with less experience on a ladder might have a greater need for something like this (say a hot-headed apprentice or a shop-keeper or librarian perhaps?).


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

That type of technology sounds tailor made for governmental interference with something that works well as is :surprise::vs_no_no_no:


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

There is also a negative side to having any warning system in place to notify the user they are beyond the safety limits, uers might grow to rely on it instead of good sense. An example from years back as I watched an idiot worker climb his ladder to the top of a flat roof 16' up. The ladder was straight and leaning at a good angle, but the stack of 2x4s (three) he had under one leg to make up for the slope in the sidewalk was high risk. Point being, the lack of a warning sound might give someone more confidence than it should. How about a damaged ladder? Again it might not be safe to use but the warning device couldn't tell.

 Bud


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Ladders are remarkably a "piece of art" in many ways. Rarely does the ladder itself fail, but the end user sure does. I've been going up and down them for 40 years. It's amazing how they become an extension of your arms and legs. I don't recommend this as it is against all ladder safety edicts, but, I can "walk" a ladder several feet in each direction with some creative bouncing that saves you from getting down off the ladder to move it. Dumb. For. Sure. 

I mentioned that to say that as long as you check and double check how your ladder is set up, you can safely get up and down with minimal risk. Now that I'm older, I take each step one at a time VERY SLOWLY and I look exactly where I'm going to take my next step. I get lots of laughs about my "overly diligent" method of going up and down, but, I'm all about saving my physical health rather than saving time at this point in my career.


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## cherrypinata (Aug 19, 2017)

Interesting responses guys!
@Bud, I do very much agree with your skepticism towards such a product. You've raised a lot of usability issues that definitely need to be addressed. At the same time though, I still think that this ladder could be potentially viable *if* the design was carefully considered and done, and an appropriate amount of research into ladder usage was properly undertaken. (It is a big ask though!).

And indeed, it is difficult to make a 'catch-all' solution to such a dynamic problem (so many things could go wrong). I agree that as a monitoring tool, it can only really be used for preventative measures, and this does limit somewhat the usefulness of such a ladder. Would be interesting to see if more 'active' technologies could be incorporated in, though I haven't come up with any just yet. 

As Gymschu mentioned though, it could be beneficial to have a "better safe than sorry" approach, since the dangers associated with a fall can really be quite life-changing (as some of the medical reports I've read seem to suggest). I guess then the question is whether a 'smart ladder' would be the most appropriate, or most practical, way of doing that, or even if it's overkill.

Very glad to have heard feedback from you guys. Thanks your sharing your stories from the industry. :smile:


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I want you to understand that I'm not trying to throw water on your innovative project and remember, I'm in the US so our regulations are different.

1. The patent process here is unmanageable. We have a temporary patent application process that holds your application for one year but that must be followed by a real application. Last time I checked, $50,000 for starters and plan on 5 to 10 years.
2. OSHA approval, (_Occupational Safety and Health Administration). Without their certification that product would not be allowed on many job sites. And with it, it could need testing and calibration at some interval. An inspector finds a dead battery and they get written up._
_3. Do you intend to manufacturer these ladders or just the electronics? If just the electronics then you might need the ladder mfg to obtain OSHA certification of their ladder with your electronics._

_I don't know how many engineers you have in your army or how deep your pockets are but inventing something related to safety would be difficult and expensive to bring to the US market._

_Bud_


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## subbuilder (Jun 20, 2016)

This sounds like a good idea for a science project. Most of us know that the hardest ladder to climb is one straight up and down. A lot of us have stood on a rung above the highest one that is "legal". The new ladders that extend and fold, or both, could use sensors that tell if the clips are actually engaged. As far as anybody actually buying something like this is a different story, but this is where engineers get started off. I say go for it and I hope you get 4 credits at the end of the semester for it!


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

The solution might not really need to be so high tech. A simple bubble level on the bottom of the rung that is at eye level could help people get their ladder straight and something similar on the side could tell them if the angle is correct. Two bubble levels cost what, a couple bucks? That's probably less than the batteries to run any electronic solution.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I like the bubble level idea better than an electronic gizmo although I wonder how well it could be affixed. If it was to get knocked around and no longer have the bubble in the right place that could cause someone who just relied on the level to place the ladder incorrectly.


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm sure the manufacturers would go for your project if it saved them a few lawsuits. As a consumer would I spend a few more dollars for a ladder with this? Probably not. I'm with Bud, I like his comment on the last time it would beep as well. I imagine if a project such as this gets in the works the next step would be the device actually records the improper use and it's it's used against the consumer at a later date. Sorry to be so cynical. But that's the way I see it. Law enforcement uses smart phones against consumers now.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Reading this thread reminded me of the "cowboy after OSHA"


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## 1995droptopz (Sep 14, 2010)

Having worked in many industrial environments as an engineer, I see your idea as something that may get picked up in industrial applications more so than by craftsman and DIY'ers. At the last couple places I worked, trades people were required to go though safety training before work, and I am sure some of that included ladders. Here they are concerned with any accidents, so devices that ensure users are working in a safe manner are employed all of the time. 

I wonder, however, if the warning system will be useful in preventing accidents. As others have said, if you are 20-30 feet in the air and an alarm goes off to say you are leaning too far off the rungs, what good does that do? 

One idea would be a safety bar that deploys if the ladder is not set up at a safe angle. This would prevent a person from ascending the ladder.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

There is an old rule in engineering.

When you create something that is idiot proof, god creates a bigger idiot.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Smart ladder implies some ladders are stupid, if you can't follow the instructions on any ladder, you should not have a ladder.


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

Here is a thought for you.

"The camel is a horse designed by a committee."


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

1995droptopz said:


> One idea would be a safety bar that deploys if the ladder is not set up at a safe angle. This would prevent a person from ascending the ladder.


But, then the guy ascending with his arms full will be caught off balance & fall, causing a lawsuit.It would have to deploy before they stepped on.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Oso954 said:


> There is an old rule in engineering.
> 
> When you create something that is idiot proof, god creates a bigger idiot.



Isn't that the argument for abortion.?

Anyway.

When I read " smart ladder" all I could think of is my Grandfather telling me, " You have to be at least 10% smarter then the equipment you are trying to use."


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## Scottg (Nov 5, 2012)

Agree with another who said there may be some speciality applications, but for general DIY, maybe not. Or maybe it doesn't have to be super smart anyway!

* Pros on ladders might not need or would just ignore a lot of signals. Why? Because they've already got skills. And if they're breaking a safety rule or otherwise being hazardous, it's either out of reckless disregard or they know they're doing it for some temporary goal. In any case, any alert to most problems would probably just be a distracting annoyance.

* DIYers might be inexperienced on ladders and somewhat clueless. But more tech might make things harder, not simpler.

So... going from helpful to high tech, simple things like a correct angle guidance tool built into side of ladder might be very useful, even if it's not super high tech. Another concern is that if people think there's going to be an alert for certain behaviors, they may try to rely on them rather than use some common sense.

Anything that requires a battery is just another maintenance task. And ladders are generally pretty simple, but add tech and it might prove more to manage than it's worth. Anything useful needs to fully understood and somehow maintained.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> going from helpful to high tech, simple things like a correct angle guidance tool built into side of ladder might be very useful, even if it's not super high tech.


That already exists on modern day extension ladders. Each rung has flat top which should be level when the ladder is set up properly. That and common sense should make the ladder safe.


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