# 12-2 wire that is actualy 14-2



## BowDown (May 7, 2009)

All the 12-2 I have bought has a Yellow jacket. The 14-2 has a white jacket... Or did this used to be reversed over 5 years ago? You're just letting us know that according to your calibrated wire strippers you believe the core to be 14ga instead of said 12ga?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Try a different stripper, or even measure its diameter. #12 has a diameter of 0.081", or just a little over 2 mm.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

How old are the wire strippers
Older wire (50's ?) was thicker then today
Yellow coating has never been on 14-2 as far as I know
I bought some over 10 years ago (?) & it had the yellow coat


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Mike Dolton said:


> my father got some 12-2 house wire from Home Depot


The jacket should also be marked with the gauge. If it says 12 then there is a 99.9999% chance you have 12 AWG wire (unless the factory made some giant dangerous mistake).


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## Mike Dolton (Jun 5, 2009)

*is it 12-2 or 14-2*

It has been a while sence I bought some, and I just checked, my 12-2 house wire is white jacket, and yes the wire striper set to 12 will not strip the new wire, it will on 14, and the wire we bought says 12-2 so it should not pull straight through when set on 12, So did the wire change over the last 5 years? just want to know because the gauge on the wire striper calls it 14-2 not 12-2 and there is a big difference when wiring and using 20amp breakers or higher. thanx for your help in this. I would just like to find out what is going on.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

ScottR said:


> (unless the factory made some giant dangerous mistake).


Can you imagine!


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## Mike Dolton (Jun 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> How old are the wire strippers
> Older wire (50's ?) was thicker then today
> Yellow coating has never been on 14-2 as far as I know
> I bought some over 10 years ago (?) & it had the yellow coat


 
bought in 2000


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Mike Dolton said:


> bought in 2000


Were they in the remainder bin?? :laughing:

I've got the opposite issue; the 12ga. hole works best for 14ga. My 14ga. jaws are too small! (Nicks the copper no matter how carefully I do it).


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## Mike Dolton (Jun 5, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Try a different stripper, or even measure its diameter. #12 has a diameter of 0.081", or just a little over 2 mm.


*Wire
**Gauge**Inches**Millimeters*0​​​​0.3065​​​​7.7851​​​​1​​​​0.283​​​​7.1882​​​​2​​​​0.2625​​​​6.6675​​​​3​​​​0.2437​​​​6.19​​​​4​​​​0.2253​​​​5.7226​​​​5​​​​0.207​​​​5.2578​​​​6​​​​0.192​​​​4.8768​​​​7​​​​0.177​​​​4.4958​​​​8​​​​0.162​​​​4.1148​​​​9​​​​0.1483​​​​3.7668​​​​10​​​​0.135​​​​3.429​​​​11​​​​0.1205​​​​3.0607​​​​12​​​​0.1055​​​​2.6797​​​​13​​​​0.0915​​​​2.3241​​​​14​​​​0.08​​​​2.032​​​​15​​​​0.072​​​​1.8288​​​​16​​​​0.0625​​​​1.5875​​​​17​​​​0.054​​​​1.3716​​​​18​​​​0.0475​​​​1.2065​​​​19​​​​0.041​​​​1.0414​​​​20​​​​0.0348​​​​0.8839​​​​21​​​​0.0317​​​​0.8052​​​​22​​​​0.0286​​​​0.7264​​​​23​​​​0.0258​​​​0.6553​​​​24​​​​0.023​​​​0.5842​​​​25​​​​0.0204​​​​0.5182​​​​26​​​​0.0181​​​​0.4597​​​​27​​​​0.0173​​​​0.4394​​​​28​​​​0.0162​​​​0.4115​​​​29​​​​0.015​​​​0.381​​​​30​​​​0.014​​​​0.3556​​​​31​​​​0.0132​​​​0.3353​​​​32​​​​0.0128​​​​0.3251​​​​33​​​​0.0118​​​​0.2997​​​​34​​​​0.0104​​​​0.2642​​​​35​​​​0.0095​​​​0.2413​​​​36​​​​0.009​​​​0.2286​​​​37​​​​0.0085​​​​0.2159​​​​38​​​​0.008​​​​0.2032​​​​39​​​​0.0075​​​​0.1905​​​​40​​​​0.007​​​​0.1778​​​​


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't know where that table comes from, but the number listed for #12 is off, I haven't checked the rest. The table from the NEC lists #12 as 0.081". My vernier calipers measure a piece of #12 as 0.0795", which is pretty close.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Mike Dolton said:


> It has been a while sence I bought some, and I just checked, my 12-2 house wire is white jacket, and yes the wire striper set to 12 will not strip the new wire, it will on 14, and the wire we bought says 12-2 so it should not pull straight through when set on 12, So did the wire change over the last 5 years? just want to know because the gauge on the wire striper calls it 14-2 not 12-2 and there is a big difference when wiring and using 20amp breakers or higher. thanx for your help in this. I would just like to find out what is going on.


It's probably just a change in covering. The copper is easily guaged for accuracy. 
There's a simple test to determine 12 from 14 guage, you just bend it. There's a distinct difference in stiffness between the two.
Ron


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

I agree with Ron6519. It is more than likely the the jacket is thinner. Strippers should not come into contact with the wire, they cut through most of the jacket then rip the remaining part loose.


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

Here's an AWG table http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Can you imagine the class action lawsuit if HD was selling mislabeled wire?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Try a different stripper, or even measure its diameter. #12 has a diameter of 0.081", or just a little over 2 mm.


So 10 turns wrapped around a pencil should measure 0.81" (26/32") in length. Or, if you prefer, about 100 micro-furlongs.

If you buy in qty's as large as HD does you can tell anyone to label anything any way you want it.

I have seen a wiring diagram for a [vehicle of Asian origin] that had labelled wires as being of larger gauge than they were.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

There is a new jacket that HD has had out in the past few years
Its "slicker/smoother" supposed to "slide along" easier
I do think its thinner then the normal jacket


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

OK, I had to go look at one of my rolls of wire
New Romex covering is called SIMpull

Cable dimensions (not sure what reg cable is)
_410 x 179 mils, Insulation thickness 19 mils
_ 
http://www.romexsimpull.com/processLink.do?title=Contractors&type=0


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> So 10 turns wrapped around a pencil should measure 0.81" (26/32") in length.


Or 0.0152 foot-pounds per newton, in the units of my country I am forming. Soon to be a world dominating super power. Watch for it..

Or, for more traditional units, 0.000000000000000002175 light-years.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Or 0.0152 foot-pounds per newton, in the units of my country I am forming. Soon to be a world dominating super power. Watch for it..


Somewhere there is a rubber room waiting for you.:laughing:
I'll probably be just down the hall. . .


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Or 0.0152 foot-pounds per newton, in the units of my country I am forming. Soon to be a world dominating super power. Watch for it..
> 
> Or, for more traditional units, 0.000000000000000002175 light-years.


I'm scared, that made sense to me.


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

Leah Frances said:


> Can you imagine the class action lawsuit if HD was selling mislabeled wire?


 
I doubt it would go to court, it would be almost impossible to seat an unbiased jury.:whistling2:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Somewhere there is a rubber room waiting for you.:laughing:
> I'll probably be just down the hall. . .


Maybe you're right... On my chart, where it says "Admitted For", it will say "Dimensional Analysis"


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> I'm scared, that made sense to me.


I hope so! A country could't survive if its system of measurements didn't make sense... oh, wait.... Maybe that's why the U.S. is in trouble...


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> I hope so! A country could't survive if its system of measurements didn't make sense... oh, wait.... Maybe that's why the U.S. is in trouble...


I still can't remember how many muther$%*! cups there are in a gallon.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

ScottR said:


> I still can't remember how many muther$%*! cups there are in a gallon.


Depends on the gallon:whistling2:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

a gallon is 128 ounces, a cup is 8 oz
So = 16 cups
Dunno why I remember pint, quart, 1/2 gal etc
Maybe because I worked in a grocery store for a while


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

ScottR said:


> I still can't remember how many muther$%*! cups there are in a gallon.


Perhaps you should switch to metric.:jester:


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> Perhaps you should switch to metric.:jester:


Exactly.. So much better for the lazy man like me to move a decimal point rather than dividing and multiplying things! :thumbup:

Scuba, you know I was kidding, right??? :huh:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> a gallon is 128 ounces, a cup is 8 oz
> So = 16 cups
> Dunno why I remember pint, quart, 1/2 gal etc
> Maybe because I worked in a grocery store for a while


You know, the half-gallon has a name as well, though it isn't used much (if at all), any more. A pottle. Yes, I'm a complete and utter dork. I lived a double life in high school, pretending to be cool, but all the while I was learning about measurements and physics. Now I don't have to hide anymore...


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

hayewe farm said:


> Perhaps you should switch to metric.:jester:


What & have to change all of our speed limit signs?
That won't work!!

Went to Canada when I was in my 20's
I was on a back road flying along in my Monte Carlo 5.0
My friend woke up, looked over at the speedo & asked what the  was I doing?

I said the speed limit is 80

He said KM an HOUR !!!

Oh......:huh:


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

I thought gallons were only divided into 5ths.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

hayewe farm said:


> I thought gallons were only divided into 5ths.


only for lite drinkers :wink:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> only for lite drinkers :wink:


Another downside to converting to metric is it will be nearly impossible to find metric-sized handle jugs with "xxx" written on them:


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Another downside to converting to metric is it will be nearly impossible to find metric-sized handle jugs with "xxx" written on them:


Perhaps a new industry that would actually show a profit.:whistling2:


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> What & have to change all of our speed limit signs?
> That won't work!!
> 
> Went to Canada when I was in my 20's
> ...


Did you ever read "The March Of the Morons"?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Went to Canada when I was in my 20's
> I was on a back road flying along in my Monte Carlo 5.0



I was just about to call you a stinky liar. I was prepared to make the assertion that Chevy didn't have a 5.0. But then it hit me: they had a 305!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I was just about to call you a stinky liar. I was prepared to make the assertion that Chevy didn't have a 5.0. But then it hit me: they had a 305!


they had a 302 and a 307 too but that was before all the metric crap but would most likely be considered to be 5 liter engines


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

And ten turns of #14 AWG would be 20/32", so you're not looking for subtle differences here.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> And ten turns of #14 AWG would be 20/32", so you're not looking for subtle differences here.


Indeed. It may be easier tell at the 1" mark. At 13 turns, #12 is almost exactly 1", where it would take 16 turns for #14.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I was just about to call you a stinky liar. I was prepared to make the assertion that Chevy didn't have a 5.0. But then it hit me: they had a 305!





nap said:


> they had a 302 and a 307 too but that was before all the metric crap but would most likely be considered to be 5 liter engines


Yeah, I was ticked when they went to liters
Car was weird, it had a 350 transmission I think
I went to get a starter & they gave me the wrong one
I brought the old one with me & they said it was for a 350
But the engine was a 5.0 as far as I know
I put a new manifold on & carb & brought it to a guy to tune in
It really flew after that (even more)


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yeah, I was ticked when they went to liters
> Car was weird, it had a 350 transmission I think
> I went to get a starter & they gave me the wrong one
> I brought the old one with me & they said it was for a 350
> ...


Quick and stupid story. I'm embarrassed to really tell it. My ex bought me a '68 Impala, all junked out, for a project car. It came factory with a 302, but it had a 350 in it from previous owners. I spent countless hours and dollars working on that car. But after all was done, it was really beautiful and bad. Black and chrome, fast back, just to drool for. The only thing was, it had chrome "302"s on each side. So, I tracked down a set of "350"s, and it was complete.

Now the embarrassing part: Toward the end of our run together, we would fight continuously. She liked to drink alot, and this was most of our problem. Anyhow, we both got hammered one night, started fighting. At the end, she threatened to take the car, seeing as how she bought it. I pulled a Richard Pryor, and shot the damn thing full of holes:laughing:. I took a gym bag full of clothes and left walking. Next day I was on a bus to Houston. Stayed there for 4 years. Haven't seen her since. 12 years gone by now.

Boy, I sure miss... that car.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Quick and stupid story. I'm embarrassed to really tell it..


but obviously not so embarrassed as to prevent you from continuing.:laughing:

In that time, it was funny. Nowadays, that would get you tossed in the pokey for a long time.

sure was fun when I was younger. Now I can hardly go pee on the bushes inthe front yard without getting hassled.:whistling2:


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

A journeyman told me a story about mc cable coming with broken neutral wire in several spots. Big mess of back charging the supply house who back charged the manufacturer


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## tincan44 (Jun 7, 2009)

Verify your wire has the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) mark.

Consider whether your wire strippers are mismarked, or just simple user error... (OH MY !!) 

Check NEC Article 310.16


*(D) Small Conductors. 
*Unless specifically permitted in
240.4(E) or 240.4(G), the overcurrent protection shall not
exceed 15 amperes for 14 AWG, 20 amperes for 12 AWG,
and 30 amperes for 10 AWG copper; or 15 amperes for
12 AWG and 25 amperes for 10 AWG aluminum and
copper-clad aluminum after any correction factors for
ambient temperature and number of conductors have
been applied.​​*(E) Tap Conductors. *​*
*​*
*Tap conductors shall be permitted to
be protected against overcurrent in accordance with the following:
(1) 210.19(A)(3) and (A)(4) Household Ranges and Cooking
Appliances and Other Loads
(2) 240.5(B)(2) Fixture Wire
(3) 240.21 Location in Circuit
(4) 368.17(B) Reduction in Ampacity Size of Busway
(5) 368.17(C) Feeder or Branch Circuits (busway taps)​(6) 430.53(D) Single Motor Taps
*(G) Overcurrent Protection for Specific Conductor*
*Applications. *​
​
Overcurrent protection for the specific conductors
shall be permitted to be provided as referenced in
Table 240.4(G).
*Table 240.4(G) Specific Conductor Applications*
*Conductor Article Section*
Air-conditioning and
refrigeration
equipment circuit
conductors
440, Parts III,
VI
Capacitor circuit
conductors
460 460.8(B) and
460.25(A)–(D)
Control and
instrumentation
circuit conductors
(Type ITC)
727 727.9
Electric welder
circuit conductors
630 630.12 and 630.32
Fire alarm system
circuit conductors
760 760.23, 760.24,
760.41, and Chapter 9,
Tables 12(A) and
12(B)
Motor-operated
appliance circuit
conductors
422, Part II
Motor and
motor-control
circuit conductors
430, Parts III,
IV, V, VI, VII
Phase converter
supply conductors
455 455.7
Remote-control,
signaling, and
power- limited
circuit conductors
725 725.23, 725.24,
725.41, and Chapter 9,
Tables 11(A) and
11(B)
Secondary tie
conductors​
450 450.6


​​​​​


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

tincan, we do NOT want to go there.

#14 wire is generally only acceptable on a 15 amp circuit and #12 on a 20 amp circuit. There are exceptions but generally a homeowner is not going to need nor understand the applications.

Please do not confuse the audience we generally deal with.

trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

nap said:


> #14 wire is generally only acceptable on a 15 amp circuit and #12 on a 20 amp circuit. There are exceptions but generally a homeowner is not going to need nor understand the applications.
> 
> Please do not confuse the audience we generally deal with.
> 
> trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.


I 1000% agree! 

IMO much of Articles 430, 440 and 630 have NO place in DIY work.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

What we don't want to discuss Taps again ? :laughing:


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## tincan44 (Jun 7, 2009)

My goodness nap and Speedy Petey. When you say “we do NOT want to go there” about my answer to Mike Dolton just who is/are the ‘we’ you speak of? I didn’t realize that only simple or incomplete answers were welcome at the DIY Chatroom.

I read all the posts to Mike Dolton’s question.

Ron6519 was first to come up with a plausible answer “It's probably just a change in covering” (jacket). However, the average DIYer wouldn’t know from the bend test with only yellow romex on hand. 

hayewe farm posts a chart from the _Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas_
which lists the Maximum amps for chassis wiring as 41 for 12 AWG. I wonder how many DIYers read this “NOTE: For installations that need to conform to the National Electrical Code, you must use their guidelines. Contact your local electrician to find out what is legal!”

OH and EXCUSE me if I wonder out loud if Yoyizit didn’t accuse HD of FRAUD with their statement “If you buy in qty's as large as HD does you can tell anyone to label anything any way you want it.”


I stand behind my 3 answers:
 1. Verify your wire has the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) mark.

2. Consider whether your wire strippers are mismarked, (perhaps just worn out) or just simple user error... 

Sorry, I didn’t list #3 as an EXCEPTION… HOWEVER Mr. Dolton didn’t state what he was wiring…

 3. Check NEC Article 310.16 and you'll see 14 AWG is rated 20 amp PROVIDED it meets the requirements of 240.4 D.


Speedy Petey states “IMO much of Articles 430, 440 and 630 have NO place in DIY work.”

I wonder, Petey, if you’ll agree that Art 430.248 should be quoted for that DIYer hooking up a pump motor? 

How about Art 440 if they are wiring for an Air Conditioner and want some tips on disconnecting means?

And Art. 630? I’ll bet there are plenty of DIYers that want to own a welder.

Heck with this logic lets also ban Art. 314 concerning, among other things BOX MOUNTING and BOX FILL. Do you think DIYers would be shocked to learn you can only put so many wires in a box or conduit?

I could go on…. BUT I’ll end with this last thought. 

nap you commented that my attempted complete answer would “confuse the audience we generally deal with. trust me, I am guilty of it myself and it generally affords no satisfaction whether you are right or not.”

Well then, I will be the judge of what satisfaction I gain from any answer I post on this site. I will also post any answer as accurately as I see fit. I know there are many that ARE looking for the complete answer.

Thank You.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You are giving people the thought that they can use #14 on a 20a circuit. For DIY people you do not want to give that impression

It's really as simple as that
Feel free to post another 10 paragraph diatribe tho


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

tincan44 said:


> I wonder, Petey, if you’ll agree that Art 430.248 should be quoted for that DIYer hooking up a pump motor?
> 
> How about Art 440 if they are wiring for an Air Conditioner and want some tips on disconnecting means?
> 
> ...


Don't dissect my post or put words in my mouth. I never said to "ban" anything. 
I will admit, my choice of the word "much" should have read "some". 

My point was regarding using "non-standard" breaker sizing, such as the 250% rule for motors, and 630.11 for welders. I never said anyone would not want a welder. I did also mention just those three articles. I said nothing about chapter 3.
I should have known someone would take my post the wrong way and nit pick it. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

tincan44 said:


> 3. Check NEC Article 310.16 and you'll see 14 AWG is rated 20 amp PROVIDED it meets the requirements of 240.4 D.


This is a VERY misleading statement due to the simple fact of what 240.4(D) says. ESPECIALLY for a DIY'er.
Unless specifically allowed in certain special applications #14 MUST be limited to 15 amps. The "special applications" in 240.4(E) & (G) do not apply to DIY work in my oh so very humble opinion.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

tincan44 said:


> My goodness nap and Speedy Petey. When you say “we do NOT want to go there” about my answer to Mike Dolton just who is/are the ‘we’ you speak of? I didn’t realize that only simple or incomplete answers were welcome at the DIY Chatroom.


Jeez... calm down. You took those comments way out to left field. They meant nothing personal by it. In residential DIY situations, it is usually best to just keep it simple. Sure, we can apply various exceptions, but for people who are asking questions here, they usually just need a clear answer. If a welder requires a 50 A circuit, might as well run 6-2. If an A/C units specifies #12 wire but a 30 A breaker, run #10 instead.

And box fill and general wiring methods are all encompassing requirements, not specific exceptions.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

*Yeah 277*



InPhase277 said:


> Jeez... calm down. You took those comments way out to left field. They meant nothing personal by it. In residential DIY situations, it is usually best to just keep it simple. Sure, we can apply various exceptions, but for people who are asking questions here, they usually just need a clear answer. If a welder requires a 50 A circuit, might as well run 6-2. If an A/C units specifies #12 wire but a 30 A breaker, run #10 instead.
> 
> And box fill and general wiring methods are all encompassing requirements, not specific exceptions.


 
:thumbsup: Keep it simple I agree, too many people on here try to prove what they know and really don't care about the DIYER.

It's like back in the shop days again so and so knows this so and so don't know, it gets old after a while.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> What we don't want to discuss Taps again ? :laughing:


that would be an affirmative.:whistling2:

it was fun but I have to watch myself with the DIY site.


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Mike Dolton said:


> my father got some 12-2 house wire from Home Depot, checked the wire and it is actually 14-2 according to the wire striper and the coating is yellow instead of white, he asked the attendent and that is all they sell. we have done a lot of wiring, is there a new standard for the wire now, they all sell the smaller wire.


Tinman, I'm all for an abundance of information, but you did not address the OPs concerns/questions at all.

Simple question, simple answer.

Then on to booze and small blocks. :thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Keep it on topic and try to temper down the personal bravado please.

I prefer to not have to delete any more posts.

Ed


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## 3way (Dec 28, 2009)

*in regards to 12 - 2 that looks like 14 - 2*

I have wired many homes and am well familiar with the wire gauges and their sizes. I wired my home 20 years ago with all 12 -2 and 12 -3 respectably. 5 years ago we remodeled the kitchen - it was the only portion not rewired in the initial rewire project. 
I went to Lowes and purchased 2 rolls of 12 - 2. 
I noticed that the entire cable itself was thinner than I was used to. I took a 2' sample piece of 12-2 out of the earlier rewire and a 2' piece of the new cable purchased at lowes.
If the newer wire is to be actual 12 -2 then the wire that was stamped as 12-2 from 20 years ago has to be 10-2 !!! That is how much difference there is.
While I believe whole heartedly in the fact that we live in a society of bribes, scandals and cover - ups , I also believe that we are now getting less bang for our buck than we were once getting. I still have the wire to prove it !! Candy bars are smaller, and I also believe that the lesser octane gasoline that we are putting in our tanks is actually diluted and supposed to actually be the higher octane that we are spending so much more for. 
I still have the wire to prove it ...


Thanks - 3 way


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the "entire cable" is irrelevant. It is the diameter of the conductor and the dimension for any given wire size has been standardized since 1857. Newer materials used for insulation have caused the overall cable to become thinner than it was but again, that is irrelevant.


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## Wino (Dec 28, 2009)

There are five pages of replies to a post that essentially said, "I can't strip my 12 awg wire unless I use the 14 awg hole in my strippers." I don't think there is any "wire stripper hole size" standard that can be referenced.

Personally, I built my custom wirestrippers by cutting into some live 12 awg wires accidentally. There are no numbers next to the hole, but they work perfectly. I'm not suggesting this method to others.

I also quit smoking by catching pneumonia and being delirious in a hospital bed for over a week. This is just another handy tip that works, but isn't normally suggested for general use.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

3way said:


> I have wired many homes and am well familiar with the wire gauges and their sizes.


#12 AWG is 0.0808" dia. so 10 turns wrapped around a dowel should have a length of 0.81", ~13/16ths.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Yoyizit said:


> #12 AWG is 0.0808" dia. so 10 turns wrapped around a dowel should have a length of 0.81", ~13/16ths.


or he could grab his handy micrometer and measure the wire. Doesn't everybody have a micrometer handy? I know I have at least 3 (seriously).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If I have a micrometer I haven't seen it in years


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> If I have a micrometer I haven't seen it in years


Dang, I must be the odd one out.

I learned to use a mic from my dad before I was a teenager. I remember the cautions of "it's a precision instrument, don't be rough with it". After I bought one, I realized why dad was so picky about how I treated his mic's.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

nap said:


> or he could grab his handy micrometer and measure the wire. Doesn't everybody have a micrometer handy? I know I have at least 3 (seriously).


Got a couple in the tool box, but digging them out may take a while!:laughing:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Never got one. 
I use a 10x magnifier and compare the wire or whatever to objects of known size.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Never got one.
> I use a 10x magnifier and compare the wire or whatever to objects of known size.


Yoyi of all people I expected you to have a complete set of mics with calibration tools, Man you really let me down. Yeah I have an old starret around here somewhere I haven't used it for about 30 years.
Happy New Year


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## Mike in Arkansas (Dec 29, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> I doubt it would go to court, it would be almost impossible to seat an unbiased jury.:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

SULTINI said:


> a complete set of mics


Several times I came close to buying a $35 unit. 

I'm now getting rid of stuff that I hardly ever use.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

SULTINI said:


> Yoyi of all people I expected you to have a complete set of mics with calibration tools, Man you really let me down. Yeah I have an old starret around here somewhere I haven't used it for about 30 years.
> Happy New Year


 complete set? Is there such thing?


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

nap said:


> complete set? Is there such thing?


Absolutely, when you work on big Diesel engines, Turbines, Pumps, Air compressors, ETC. you need all kinds of sets from 1 inch up to ? There are quite a few sets you can buy in big wooden boxes that have spaces for each size lined with soft cloth and calibration spacers.
When I reference the equipment I mean from small to power plant size.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

SULTINI said:


> Absolutely, when you work on big Diesel engines, Turbines, Pumps, Air compressors, ETC. you need all kinds of sets from 1 inch up to ? There are quite a few sets you can buy in big wooden boxes that have spaces for each size lined with soft cloth and calibration spacers.
> When I reference the equipment I mean from small to power plant size.


I understand what you mean. I was just joking around. My point was simply there is no real standard set. You buy what you need and if you need a set that goes to 36", you buy a set that goes to 36".

Not a lot of folks are going to need the size of the mic in the picture though although I do know a few that do.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

nap said:


> Not a lot of folks are going to need the size of the mic in the picture though although I do know a few that do.


Dolly Parton?


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

*Answer*

So was there ever an answer/explanation to this thread? I just purchased the same wire and its a good bit thinner than the "old" 12-2 wire. A lot more plyable as well, or is it pliable. Anyway, Im not at home but I do have a micrometer to measure with. I just dont want to rewire my childrens bedrooms with a fire hazard.

Shane


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

JakAHearts said:


> So was there ever an answer/explanation to this thread? I just purchased the same wire and its a good bit thinner than the "old" 12-2 wire. A lot more plyable as well, or is it pliable. Anyway, Im not at home but I do have a micrometer to measure with. I just dont want to rewire my childrens bedrooms with a fire hazard.
> 
> Shane



If the wire says 12 on it, I would trust it. If you are worried, you could drop the breaker down to 15 Amps.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

secutanudu said:


> If the wire says 12 on it, I would trust it. If you are worried, you could drop the breaker down to 15 Amps.


#12 is 0.081" [5/64ths] dia, 14 is 0.064" [1/16th].


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> #12 is 0.081" [5/64ths] dia, 14 is 0.064" [1/16th].


Ill measure it when I get home. If its marked 12 but is thinner than .081" should I trash it?

Shane


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> Ill measure it when I get home. If its marked 12 but is thinner than .081" should I trash it?
> 
> Shane


Determine what size it is closest to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Are you looking at the diameter of the conductor or the insulation? Insulations have changed material and thicknesses. Conductor size is still the same.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> Ill measure it when I get home. If its marked 12 but is thinner than .081" should I trash it?
> 
> Shane


How about returning it to the store? Show them they are selling improperly labelled wire. However, make sure you've got the right data to backup your claim (callapers and wire size chart?)

Even if you've already cut the wire... if its the wrong size, then it should be returned.


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> Are you looking at the diameter of the conductor or the insulation? Insulations have changed material and thicknesses. Conductor size is still the same.


No, the insulation AND the conductor are of a thinner guage. I can easily bend it with just my fingers where as the "old" 12 guage is quite stiff and requires pliers to bend.

Shane


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> No, the insulation AND the conductor are of a thinner guage. I can easily bend it with just my fingers where as the "old" 12 guage is quite stiff and requires pliers to bend.
> 
> Shane


Is what you think is 12 guage really 10 gauage? I've run 12 guage before, back when all guages were white. I never had problems bending 14 or 12. But when I used some 10 guage as oversized wire to feed power tools, that stuff was a bear to get bent into the j-boxes.


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

Not that I know of... Both of them are clearly marked along the wire 
"12-2" I purchased the same numbers because all I am doing is running a seperate grounded cable to my upstairs bathroom w/ a GFI.


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

Issue solved. A certain idiot (me) accidentally, bought a length of 14 and a length of 12. Of course, I used the 14 when I wanted the 12. Now, my question is, how much load can I put on here? Ive got it hooked to a 15a breaker and it feeds a junction box that will go to 2 outlets in a bathroom, 6 overhead recessed lights in the same bathroom and 1 outlet in an adjacent room. If I can, Id also like to run a exhaust fan with this but its not necessary, I can run a seperate line for this easily.

Thanks everyone for not telling me Im an idiot. :thumbup:

Shane


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

JakAHearts said:


> Issue solved. A certain idiot (me) accidentally, bought a length of 14 and a length of 12. Of course, I used the 14 when I wanted the 12. Now, my question is, how much load can I put on here? Ive got it hooked to a 15a breaker and it feeds a junction box that will go to 2 outlets in a bathroom, 6 overhead recessed lights in the same bathroom and 1 outlet in an adjacent room. If I can, Id also like to run a exhaust fan with this but its not necessary, I can run a seperate line for this easily.
> 
> Thanks everyone for not telling me Im an idiot. :thumbup:
> 
> Shane


A couple issues here. 14 gauge wire has to be fed with no larger than a 15-amp breaker, so you ok there, but there are specific rules on bathroom outlets and the circuits that provide power to them.

A circuit can power:
One bathroom, outlets & lighting/fan
*OR*
Multiple bathrooms, outlets only

-Bathroom outlets have to be 20 amps. 
-Bathroom outoets must be GFCI-protected
-Circuits that feed bathroom outlets cannot feed outlets in any non-bathrooms

Just to give you an example of a legal setup (I sure hope so anyway!):

I am remodeling my bathroom currently. I'm using two separate circuits, one to the GFCI outlet (20a breaker, 12g wire) and one for the lighting fan (15a breaker, 14g wire). I will also be extending the lighting circuit to the upstairs bathroom, and running another new 20a circuit for the upstairs bathroom outlet.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

#14 = 15 amp max
#12 = 20 amp max

2008 NEC code requires bathroon receptacle outlets to be supplied by a 20 amp circuit (210.11(C)(3)) and states that this circuit can NOT supply outlets in other rooms. 

The code does allow a single 20 amp circuit to supply receptacle outlets for multiple bathrooms (according to my building inspector) OR a single 20 amp circuit can supply power for receptacles, lights, fans, etc. for a single bathroom.

So if you want to be compliant with the latest NEC codes, you need to either...
1. replace the #14 with the #12 AND remove that outlet in the other room for the circuit, or
2. use the existing #14 to supply power to lights, fan, and the outlet in the other room AND run a second circuit with #12 to only feed receptical outlets in the bathroom.


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

secutanudu said:


> A couple issues here. 14 gauge wire has to be fed with no larger than a 15-amp breaker, so you ok there, but there are specific rules on bathroom outlets and the circuits that provide power to them.
> 
> A circuit can power:
> One bathroom, outlets & lighting/fan
> ...


Ok, that should be easy enough. Can I run an independent line for just the bathroom then to a junction box and from the box go through the ceiling to recessed lights and through the floor to the outlets? Also, since I just read in the code sticky that I cant put 20a outlets on 15a circuit will I have to use a 12-2 line for the proprietary bathroom line? Hope that wasnt too confusing of a description. And since I cant say thanks enough, THANKS AGAIN!

Shane


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Ok, so you can see secutanudu and I were working on replies at the same time...

And I can attest to the fact that you want your bathroom recepticals to be on a 20 amp circuit. 

Modern hair dryers are listed at as much at 1850 watts (and maybe even 1900 watts). I'm not sure how they are able to do this and have only a plug compatable with a 15 amp circuit since 1850 watts at 120 volts is OVER 15 amps.

Our older home with only a 15 amp circuit can quickly trip the breaker if all the lights in the bathroom are on and the hair dryer is run at full power.

It's bad enough that as a part of a building permit to finish in a basement, I included adding a 20 amp circuit to supply a single "hair dryer" outlet in my existing bathroom.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> Ok, that should be easy enough. Can I run an independent line for just the bathroom then to a junction box and from the box go through the ceiling to recessed lights and through the floor to the outlets? Also, since I just read in the code sticky that I cant put 20a outlets on 15a circuit will I have to use a 12-2 line for the proprietary bathroom line? Hope that wasnt too confusing of a description. And since I cant say thanks enough, THANKS AGAIN!
> 
> Shane


Yes, I'm a bit confused by this (...run an independent line for just the bathroom then to a junction box...). 

Depending upon where you are going with this, something to keep in mind is that a circuit protected by a 20 amp breaker can not have any wire in the circuit less than #12 (excluding the wire inside luminaries and other things that plug into the circuit).

Some people think that since it's impossible for their light fixtures to pull more than 15 amps that they can run #12 from a 20 amp breaker to a receptical, then run #14 from the receptical to the lights. But that's not how it works. If the circuit is going to be protected by a 20 amp breaker, then all the wire you run for the circuit MUST be #12 (or greater).


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks HooKoo. We were typing at the same time. You put that a lot easier than I was trying to convey. So one 12-2 circuit for all three outlets in the bathroom and keep the 14 for the lights and fan.

Can one spot house both the GFI and switch for the lighting even though they are wired seperately?

Also, am I better off starting a new thread and letting this old thing die or...? 

Shane


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> Thanks HooKoo. We were typing at the same time. You put that a lot easier than I was trying to convey. So one 12-2 circuit for all three outlets in the bathroom and keep the 14 for the lights and fan.
> 
> Can one spot house both the GFI and switch for the lighting even though they are wired seperately?
> 
> ...


Two circuits can share the same box; however, the grounds of both circuits must be tied together in the box.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

JakAHearts said:


> Can one spot house both the GFI and switch for the lighting even though they are wired seperately?


According to code, nothing wrong with that, but in most bathrooms I've seen, the switches are by the door at a normal switch height, while the GFI receptical is mounted a little lower near the sink basin (if the sink basin has a wall beside it, the outlet is usually several inches above the counter top and behind the mid-point of the sink basin).


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## JakAHearts (Apr 20, 2010)

I have a seperate area for the vanity/sink area. It is pretty far from the entrance so Ill have two seperate light switches. One for the sink/vanity and one for the toilet/shower. Youve been very helpful, thank you!

Shane


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

You can have two circuits in the same box, but mark the wires as such, and do not mix up the neutrals. 

Also remember that only your first outlet needs to be GFCI, if you feed the rest of them from the LOAD side of the outlet. Everything connected to the load side is also protected. Once you wire it, you can verify that it is all protected by pressing the TEST button on the GFCI - just make sure the other outlets are also dead. 

A moderator may separate this discussion into a new thread, since it's gone a little off-topic


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

InPhase277 said:


> Or, for more traditional units, 0.000000000000000002175 light-years.


Pshht. I did the Lowe's run in less than 12 parsecs.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

operagost said:


> Pshht. I did the Lowe's run in less than 12 parsecs.


In which Star Wars episode was that? :laughing:


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> In which Star Wars episode was that? :laughing:


Star Wars episode 14 - "A New Dope"


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