# GFCI intermittent nuisance trips



## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Okay, first off I would like to state that I am not a electrician, an electronic technician perhaps, but when it comes to AC I am as lost as a ball in tall grass. I would also like to state that I believe that I understand the fundamentals of a GFCI _breaker_, it is looking for a difference in current on the common (neutral, white) and the hot (power, black) wires and a variance over 5 milliamperes will cause the GFCI to trip. This is usually a result from a ground fault, which may or may not include the actual earth ground, but is usually a faulty connection somewhere in the common run, caused by moisture or even a bad spot in the insulation due to inadequate precautions while installing (usually). The reason that I wanted to put all that first is due to my conducting several tedious hours researching my problem and discovering that most of the replies covered to some degree and on occasion disputed the above mentioned items, but what you see is what I have come to be _most correct_. I have not found *any* scenarios that were close enough to my situation that I felt comfortable in proceeding with any corrective actions.

Whew! Okay, my dad and I recently built a screened in porch on the back of his mobile home. This mobile home is over twenty years old, but well maintained and no major issues. After I did the structural engineering portion and designed the decking and roof system, my dad assisted in the construction. He decided to wire three electrical outlets, a ceiling fan and four dual four foot fluorescent lights. Now he has done some DIY wiring in the past for his shop located adjacent to the mobile home. He checked the outlets with one of those three pronged testers, two amber lights indicating correct wiring, polarity okay and good ground. The ceiling fan works fine, as do the outlets. The porch is wired to a male three pronged standard plug and plugged into an outlet that is wired on a breaker in the main junction box. He decided to use the plug setup until he was confident there were not wiring issues, then he intends to hard wire the porch to a breaker inside the main junction box.

Now here is where it gets mind boggling. He has a GFCI *breaker* inside the mobile home that is wired to both bathrooms and the external outlet at the far end of the house. Well it seems that the GFCI trips on a whim. We replaced the outlet outside thinking that there may be a moisture problem, but the problem persisted. By happen-chance, I discovered that the GFCI breaker is tripping only when the fluorescent lights are switched on *AND *not every time. The lamps have electric start ballasts, for low temperature operation, therefore I hypothesised that perhaps there is some inductance during the initial powering up of the lights, even though they are on a different circuit. I have been able to reliably reproduce this anomaly by having all four lights switched on at their individual factory pull switches and then flipping the wall switch that he wired them to. He mistakenly got two three-way switches, one for the lights and one for the fan. He has 3-14 romex coming into the porch, wired to an outlet then split with one run for the other two outlets and the other run split again with one run going to the switch and the celing fan. The other run goes to the switch, then he split the run again, one for one side of the porch lights and the other run for the other side with two light fixtures with two tubes each for a total of four 40W four foot lights off of each run. Well I think I have successfully convoluted this topic to the point to where I may need psychotherapy. I thank any and all for taking the time to read this far and I will be anxiously be anticipating comments. God bless. ~~Joey~~


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

I hate DIY GFI problems, way to easy for to many mistakes, I would meg the wire and find the fault.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> He has 3-14 romex coming into the porch, wired to an outlet then split with one run for the other two outlets and the other run split again with one run going to the switch and the celing fan. The other run goes to the switch, then he split the run again, one for one side of the porch lights and the other run for the other side with two light fixtures with two tubes each for a total of four 40W four foot lights off of each run. Well I think I have successfully convoluted this topic to the point to where I may need psychotherapy. I thank any and all for taking the time to read this far and I will be anxiously be anticipating comments.




Hello Joey

A couple comments.. Fluorescents are often the cause of intermittant tripping gfci's. However the gfci breaker is not part of the circuit from which the porch lighting is supplied. I'm assuming that other appliances can be plugged into this outlet the porch is supplied from and the gfci will not trip.....only trips when you turn on the porch fluorescents? ..and you are positive this gfci breaker is not part of the outlet the porch is plugged into?


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Hello Joey
> 
> A couple comments.. Fluorescent are often the cause of intermittent tripping gfci's. However the gfci breaker is not part of the circuit from which the porch lighting is supplied. I'm assuming that other appliances can be plugged into this outlet the porch is supplied from and the gfci will not trip.....only trips when you turn on the porch fluorescents? ..and you are positive this gfci breaker is not part of the outlet the porch is plugged into?


What thank both you and Chris for your interest. Yes I can unequivocally claim that they are on separate circuits (which is what is killing me) due to the fact that when the GFCI breaker trips, the lights on the porch continue to work. Now ain't that a kick in the "shorts". Please overlook my crude humor, just trying to remain sane. Again thank you all for any suggestions, I am fresh out of ideas. I can use one like and switch it on and off by way of the wally switch and not get a recurrence each time, but after several attempts it does trip. I have scoured both this site and google, and you guys seem to be the most popular search results, not to mention that for the majority, everyone here seems to get along, rather than stiffeling my attempts to resolve this with altercations on about certain "theories". I just want to eliminate any safety concerns, however learning of what the culprit is would be a bonus. I just don't my dad to replace the GFCI breaker in the house box with a standard breaker just to wake up to a smoldering fire due to cutting corners. Preventing a problem is far safer and cheaper, so I guess I need some enlightenment with you help. Thanx,, Joey


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

jejm1975, Hmm, seems like you've got yourself quite the problem. I can't say why the GFCI is tripping. What you could do is replace the GFCI breaker with a regular breaker and change the first outlet in the "stream" to a GFI outlet; hot pair (from the panel) to the the line side and the remainder of the circuit to the load side. See if that "solves" your problem. Is the GCFI and the fluor. lights on the same bus in the panel? Perhaps some sort of inductance there causing the breaker to trip. I'm not an EE, just an ET and electrician. Like they used to say about frequency modulation, it's "FM" feakin' magic....


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Since this is a GFCI _breaker_, the problem could simply be an overcurrent issue. 

While the OP's understanding of GFCI's seems to be solid, I, like Chris, find the GFCI issues posted herein to be somewhat annoying. With GF's, there can be a zillion reasons for the tripping and it's very tough to shoot this type of trouble online.

BTW, I have several 32W 2-bulb FL fixtures in my basement which are powered from a GFCI breaker (and yes, I understand that it is not required however when I installed the lights, it was the only type of breaker that I had on hand). 2 years later, I have not suffered one nuisance trip.

Done


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

Is it possible that there is a crossed neutral or two neutral paths for the florescent light fixture? Even though the light is fed from the non GFCI circuit, if some of the juice can get to the neutral wire on the GFCI circuit it will sense an imbalance and trip.

About the only other thing I can think of is if there is a "ground loop" (or in this case a Neutral or Hot loop). If you have a loop of wire it can be susceptible to nearby electrical interference (transformers intentionally use this to step up/down voltage). The Florescent light may induce a small current/voltage in an adjacent loop and if that loop happens to be on the GFCI circuit... bang there goes the circuit.

My money would be on the first one, but the solution to both is the same: Make sure there is one and only one path for the electricity to take on all circuits at any time.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

petey_c said:


> Is the GCFI and the fluor. lights on the same bus in the panel? Perhaps some sort of inductance there causing the breaker to trip. I'm not an EE, just an ET and electrician. Like they used to say about frequency modulation, it's "FM" feakin' magic....


 
Thanks petey for the assistance. To answer your inquiry about the bus, no there are not even in the same panel, again that is what is really warping my mind. What I am afraid of is that this _ghost_ I am chasing is an indication of something more notorious lurking beneath. As they say, GFCI's generally trip because they are doing their job. Dad thinks that perhaps the porch doesn't have a _good enough_ ground without being hardwired. I suggested that he should check the connections to the buses to eliminate that. I just can't get how something on a totally different circuit, in a different panel can trip that GFCI breaker.:wallbash::cursing::help:


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## Winchester (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm not a professional but trying to follow along here but when did multiple panels come into play? Can't believe there is more than one for a mobil home. Thought this was plugged into an existing circuit of the main panel??


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok it would seem to me that the fluorescents are causing the problem like it or not. IMO the problem has to be emi/rf induced into the electrical system from the ballasts of the light fixtures. You might check to see if one of the lights is slow to start (light) on occassion. This may be the source of the intermittant tripping gfci.
A discussion on emi and rf nuisance tripping would entail many pages so I think best to isolate the problem to the fluorescents. Asuming that all current carriers connections are proper and isolated from grounded metal and each other. I doubt you have a fire hazard assuming you agree that the wiring is correct for the porch. My suggestion would be to run an extension cord from other outlets and plug the porch into those and see if it still trips that gfci. I would include the bathroom receptacle on the gfci circuit. I would also be sure this gfci breaker is not old school and is of the newer type with improved circuitry for interference from emi/rf and the fluorescent ballasts should have THD of less than 10%. Electronic ballasts are the most unstable and can emit rf in large doses if not shielded properly. You will see this in the cheapo light fixtures. My understanding is that these are no longer UL listed so probably is not your problem.You might even have to resort to new fixtures that are incandescent or better quality magnetic ballast fluorescents if the ones you have now a cheapos.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Can you describe how the fluorescent lights are wired? 

You stated the porch was wired with receptacles, ceiling fan, and fluorescent lights, and that the porch is for now powered by using plug and cord at a GFCI protected outside receptacle. You also stated you used 14/3 to do this. I am having a hard time figuring out how this is wired, and how the lights could keep working in this scenario.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah that's a good point...I considered that he meant 14/2 with ground.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

daxinarian said:


> Is it possible that there is a crossed neutral or two neutral paths for the florescent light fixture? Even though the light is fed from the non GFCI circuit, if some of the juice can get to the neutral wire on the GFCI circuit it will sense an imbalance and trip.
> 
> About the only other thing I can think of is if there is a "ground loop" (or in this case a Neutral or Hot loop). If you have a loop of wire it can be susceptible to nearby electrical interference (transformers intentionally use this to step up/down voltage). The Florescent light may induce a small current/voltage in an adjacent loop and if that loop happens to be on the GFCI circuit... bang there goes the circuit.
> 
> My money would be on the first one, but the solution to both is the same: Make sure there is one and only one path for the electricity to take on all circuits at any time.


Thanx dax. Sounds good, but I kinda got lost in the "loop" portion, so I have attempted to construct a diagram







illustrating how everything is laid out. Please excuse my elementary drawing skills, but I think it may prove to be a good reference for you to direct me in the correct direction. Thanks ~~Joey~~


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Okay here are some visual aids, because I know that I am probaly not explaining all of this correctly.










This is a rudimentary drawing depicting the run, color coded for your convenience. 










This is the external panel with the utility MAIN comming in. Porch is plugged into the duplex receptacle, which is on it's own breaker. 










This is where the line comes into the porch, runs through this duplex receptacle.










The line then runs to a splice, where on run feeds the other two duplex receptacles and the other run goes to a junction box. 










From the junction box, the line is split again, one run to supply the 3-way switch (wired as a single pole) for the ceiling fan. 










The other run supplies the 3-way switch (wired as a single pole) for the lights.










Here you can not see the splice from the switch, but is where the line splits to each side of the porch. 










Each pair of lights is hardwired inside the junction box. The run from the junction box is spliced to supply each side of the porch.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Winchester said:


> I'm not a professional but trying to follow along here but when did multiple panels come into play? Can't believe there is more than one for a mobil home. Thought this was plugged into an existing circuit of the main panel??


 
Yeah I know my description goes around the world, to clarify, there is a Main panel located outside where the utility feed comes in from the street and that has breakers and lines going to a duplex receptacle, the shop, the AC and heating strips, then the main goes into the mobile home to the wiring panel for the house.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Ok it would seem to me that the fluorescents are causing the problem like it or not. IMO the problem has to be emi/rf induced into the electrical system from the ballasts of the light fixtures. You might check to see if one of the lights is slow to start (light) on occassion. This may be the source of the intermittant tripping gfci.
> A discussion on emi and rf nuisance tripping would entail many pages so I think best to isolate the problem to the fluorescents.


Thanks Stubbie, yeah during my searching, I found several entries about fluorescent lights occasionally causing SNAFU's and I also found so many citations of magnetic fields and rf nuisance tripping, that I got a headache just reading them. My theory is that when turning on the switch, that there is a sudden drop in power (if only for a millisecond) and _somehow_ this is back feeding into the house and tripping the GFCI breaker.



Stubbie said:


> My suggestion would be to run an extension cord from other outlets and plug the porch into those and see if it still trips that gfci. I would include the bathroom receptacle on the gfci circuit.


That is a gr8 idea :rockon::notworthy: don't know why I didn't think of that yet:bangin::wacko:. I will give that a shot.


Stubbie said:


> I would also be sure this gfci breaker is not old school and is of the newer type with improved circuitry for interference from emi/rf and the fluorescent ballasts should have THD of less than 10%.


Not unless they made those twenty plus years ago. I thought about that, but still with the two on separate panel boxes... WTF right!? Again though electricity is a wiley critter.



Stubbie said:


> Electronic ballasts are the most unstable and can emit rf in large doses if not shielded properly. You will see this in the cheapo light fixtures.


The fixtures were purchased at Lowe's and are supposed to be for outdoor use, so I think that defines them as el-cheapo's @ <$20 apiece. Thankx Stubbs for the ideas. I am gonna get this or go crazy tryin. ~~Joey~~


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This would be the typical service to the mobile home having an outside 3 wire service rated pedestal (main) and a 4 wire service entrance feeder to the internal panel (sub-panel). 

The porch appears to be plugged into a receptacle on an outside wall of the porch and then that receptacle is plugged into one coming off the service panel?


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

HouseHelper said:


> Can you describe how the fluorescent lights are wired?
> 
> You stated the porch was wired with receptacles, ceiling fan, and fluorescent lights, and that the porch is for now powered by using plug and cord at a GFCI protected outside receptacle.


If I stated that the porch is plugged into a GFCI protected outside receptacle, that is incorrect. It is plugged into a standard duplex receptacle that is hard wired into the external main panel box, with its own standard breaker. Sorry for the mix up.



HouseHelper said:


> You also stated you used 14/3 to do this. I am having a hard time figuring out how this is wired, and how the lights could keep working in this scenario.


Again my, mistake, it should read 14/2 not 2, there is a common (white), power (black) and ground (bare copper). I have added pictures to better illustrate my situation. Thanks HouseHelper for the corrections, as I am a perfectionist by nature and really hate making mistakes, although I have no qualms in admitting that I am wrong. ~~Joey~~


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> This would be the typical service to the mobile home having an outside 3 wire service rated pedestal (main) and a 4 wire service entrance feeder to the internal panel (sub-panel).
> 
> The porch appears to be plugged into a receptacle on an outside wall of the porch and then that receptacle is plugged into one coming off the service panel?


 
Kinda... the wiring for the porch is temporarily wired to a standard three pronged plug and is connected to the receptacle fed from the outside 3 wire service rated pedestal (main), the other end is actually wired to the receptacle on the inside of the porch and from there goes on to feed the rest of the porch. No external receptacle on the wall of the porch. ~~Joey~~


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Since this is a DYI forum, I thought that I would include a picture of the finished project 










and a link to the photos from start to finish http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

ok, first off, I don't see the neutral crossover I thought might be present, so it might be the second one about the interference (its the same thing Stubbie is talking about)

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY!
All of those splices need to be in accessible boxes, not just nutted and taped together.:no: For the life of me, I can't understand why you would splice it 12" away from a box... I would suggest taking care of it quickly before some of the more vocal electricians exile you from DIY land:wink:


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

daxinarian said:


> ok, first off, I don't see the neutral crossover I thought might be present, so it might be the second one about the interference (its the same thing Stubbie is talking about).


Please pardon my ignorance here, but you lost me here. SO you are saying that I should be able to eliminate a neutral crossover as a possible cause? And you are leaning towards the lights causing a magnetic field, or a power drop, induction or something?



daxinarian said:


> BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY!
> All of those splices need to be in accessible boxes, not just nutted and taped together.:no: For the life of me, I can't understand why you would splice it 12" away from a box... I would suggest taking care of it quickly before some of the more vocal electricians exile you from DIY land:wink:


Okay, those are valid points, points that I made to my dad while he was wiring it. I can not figure out why he did that either. He really lost me when he made the first splice coming out of the receptacle and going into the first junction box. He made some absurd claim that he needed to do that because of what he was gonna do after the junction, referring to supplying the other receptacles and then the lights/fan. I also don't know why he bothered to run the run going to the other receptacles through the first junction box, when he was not going to tap into that line. Bless his heart, he is a seventy-two year old retired vending service technician. Oh he made one claim in response to my question of the first splice, that he only had so much room to wire things together in the junction box. Anyways, thank you for pointing that out and showing your concern dax. ~~Joey~~


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

jejm1975 said:


> Please pardon my ignorance here, but you lost me here. SO you are saying that I should be able to eliminate a neutral crossover as a possible cause? And you are leaning towards the lights causing a magnetic field, or a power drop, induction or something?


On a couple of the pictures that show the door it looks like there was a cutout for maybe an old porch light? Did those wires get used at all or were they just capped off and left alone? If they were capped off and left alone, then yes, I think the neutral crossover can be eliminated, it looks like all the wire has the single path I was talking about.

The only thing left is the induction thing. The problem with the induction is that I would think it would require a wire from the GFCI circuit to be near the lights, and I don't see that. its a thinker...




jejm1975 said:


> Bless his heart, he is a seventy-two year old retired vending service technician.


Parents... what are you gonna do with them:thumbsup:


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> My suggestion would be to run an extension cord from other outlets and plug the porch into those and see if it still trips that gfci. I would include the bathroom receptacle on the gfci circuit.


That is a gr8 idea :rockon::notworthy: 
don't know why I didn't think of that yet 
:bangin::wacko:. I will give that a shot.


***UPDATE** Okay, tried plugging the porch in on a receptacle on the GFCI breaker circuit. When I flipped the switch for the lights, they immediately tripped the GFCI (I am now kind of leaning toward replacing with a newer GFCI breaker). I then plugged the porch into the shop, and it took several times of flipping the lights on and off before it tripped the GFCI breaker in the house. So what does that mean? ~~Joey~~


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

daxinarian said:


> On a couple of the pictures that show the door it looks like there was a cutout for maybe an old porch light? Did those wires get used at all or were they just capped off and left alone? If they were capped off and left alone, then yes, I think the neutral crossover can be eliminated, it looks like all the wire has the single path I was talking about.


You are correct that there is wiring and and a cutout for the old porch light. They are not capped off, but are running to the motion lights on the eve of the porch. I omitted that circuit from my drawing, since they are their own circuit that is only connected to the motion lights and is totally independent of the reminder of the porch wiring.



daxinarian said:


> The only thing left is the induction thing. The problem with the induction is that I would think it would require a wire from the GFCI circuit to be near the lights, and I don't see that. its a thinker...


... no this thing is a 
:wallbash::cursing::bangin:  :surrender::tank: 

and is about to whoop my tail. Thanx Dax, glad to know that I am not totally inept. ~~Joey~~





daxinarian said:


> Parents... what are you gonna do with them:thumbsup:


Ya gotta love'em.:thumbup:


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

jejm1975 said:


> You are correct that there is wiring and and a cutout for the old porch light. They are not capped off, but are running to the motion lights on the eve of the porch. I omitted that circuit from my drawing, since they are their own circuit that is only connected to the motion lights and is totally independent of the reminder of the porch wiring.


That may be the "antena" for the GFCI problem (assuming its on the GFCI circuit). Try disconnecting and capping both the hot and neutral wires (disconnect the ground, too) to the porch light back at the old opening and see if that solves it. If it does, reroute the wires for that switch so that it is powered from the new porch wiring and you GFCI problems are taken care of.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

daxinarian said:


> That may be the "antena" for the GFCI problem (assuming its on the GFCI circuit). Try disconnecting and capping both the hot and neutral wires (disconnect the ground, too) to the porch light back at the old opening and see if that solves it. If it does, reroute the wires for that switch so that it is powered from the new porch wiring and you GFCI problems are taken care of.


 
Okay, but first... the wiring to the motion lights are on a switch inside the house, which is off, so could that still act as an antenna?


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

jejm1975 said:


> Okay, but first... the wiring to the motion lights are on a switch inside the house, which is off, so could that still act as an antenna?


Yup, still could since the switch only breaks the connection to the Hot, the neutral and ground still have good path.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

There are so many code violations and probable/possible miswires there, I don't know where to begin... I'll have to study those pix some more and get a few more sheets of paper to keep track...


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Not trying to be cruel, but that has to be about the worst wiring job I've seen.........ever!!!!

Pull the pictures off the web immediately before someone else sees them........ I'm serious as hell!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I must say your Dad is certainly imaginative..... Unfortunately I'm losing faith in a rare rf/emi problem..., if you are a perfectionist, you best not cover that wiring up, cause it will never pass an inspection by the codes authority in your area. Might be best to have one of us draw a diagram or have a local professional electrician come in and straighten that wiring out and bring it up to the standards of the NEC. Your Dad means well but he should not be doing any residential wiring projects, as he is a little too resourceful.....:yes:

Also that receptacle out at the service panel is not supposed to be used in that manner but I'm sure you know that.

I'm not sure how much wiring your dad has done at the home since you started this project with the porch but I would be suspect of most of it and I would take a look at it asap. You also seem to be a tad bit unsure about residential wiring so might be a good time to locate someone who can help you out if the budget doesn't support an electrician.

So my best response at this point is that all that wiring needs to be redone by someone knowledgable in residential wiring and once that has been done my guess is your gfci problem is going to go away. Until you do that your going to continue to chase your tail....


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

After seeing the pics I know what the problem is...  See post #2 also.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Joey

Thought I would stop back in and just say that is not the worst wiring that Silk has ever seen...he probably forgot to take his medication yesterday...:whistling2:

Humor aside don't replace the gfci breaker that is not your problem. And the fixtures are fine those are not the type I was referring. It appears you have a cable running from the old porch light box to the new flood light box.

Is that flood light on the gfci breaker circuit that is tripping? Remember the neutral wire is not switched but is monitored by the gfci breaker.....

EDIT: Might as well go out in left field and give you my thoughts. When you plug the porch into the gfci circuit you get an immediate trip of the gfci. This tells me your dad has a neutral to ground fault in his wiring splices somewhere, generally a hot wire to ground will trip the circuit breaker on the the branch circuit being served. Odds are a neutral to ground fault. Second that cable to the flood lights splits the fluorescents and *if* there is an rf/emi issue that is where its likely coming from with your intermittant problem. So in my opinion you have 2 issues a wiring fault in the circuit to the fluorescents causing the instant trip of the gfci and a possible rf/emi issue occuring in the cable to the flood lights.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I agree with Chris and Stubbie. I would be looking for a wiring error. A ground touching a neutral somewhere.

In your pictures I am seeing to many code violations and wiring errors to even start listing them. I seriously think you need an electrician to come in and do entire job correctly.


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Hello Joey
> 
> Thought I would stop back in and just say that is not the worst wiring that Silk has ever seen...he probably forgot to take his medication yesterday...:whistling2:
> .


Your right, it's not the worst. I was feeling a little testy last night. 
The worst was someone wiring 2x4 lay-in trouffer lights with indoor telephone cable, although they were thinking enough to double up the wires :wink:

The weekend is here so I will be back on my meds shortly :thumbup:


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Okay, since no one else is going to ask, what is up with all the taped splices?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

It was brought up earlier Chris..I think the first page somewhere. I would almost bet dollars to donuts that taped splice after the switch for the fluorescents is where the fault is located. Maybe it was the use of the 3-ways instead of single poles that steered Dad into doing that....who knows? For the life of me I don't understand the tapped splice and JB before the switch...thats just funny....


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I kind of like the wire going into the water pipe.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

jrclen said:


> I kind of like the wire going into the water pipe.


That should be water PIPES. And he saved a lot of money on staples.


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

****UPDATE****

Harr harr harr you guys are too funny :tt2:. Okay problem solved. We went back in and removed the splices (which had wire nuts on the wires) with the vinyl tape. We also removed the 3-way switches and replaced them with single pole switches. We also added a third switch, moved the junction box, removed the temporary 3-prong plug connection, added a outdoor receptacle and wired the line in to the external plug and from there brought the power into the porch. From there we ran two separate lines from the receptacle to the junction box. When we added the third switch, we split the power at the junction box and ran power to the lights, one run to one side of the porch and the other line to the other side, then we took the other power line and split it with one powering the fan and the other supplying the other two receptacles. After all of that we figured that our problem was over, right....? Nope!! I went and got a replacement GFCI breaker and removed the old breaker in the house (which the old porch light was not on) and installed the new one. Mind you that GFCI breaker was twenty plus years old and while removing the old breaker I noticed that the original installer only had about 1/8" of wire stripped and in the terminal, that may have been the whole problem. Anyway after that, no more problem. Whew!! :sweatdrop: Glad that is over.

So in the end, after we all got our butts kicked it was the GFCI breaker :smartassr improper installation and not the wiring :tt2:, so my dad isn't totally gone. Thank you to everyone for the assistance. I have included some new pictures of the changes.

Just wondering about the reference to the water pipe... don't have a clue what you are talking about.











No more splices... and different switches, plus moved the junction box.










Porch isn't plugged in anymore, added outdoor receptacle too.










Now we just gotta close it all in.










... here's the culprit. Got the model number just in-case anybody wanted to see how old this this is.











Here is the site before...










... and here is the nearly complete project.

~~Joey~~


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## jejm1975 (Sep 4, 2008)

jrclen said:


> I kind of like the wire going into the water pipe.


 
Ahh! I get it now, you are referring to the line to the sump that is running in the PVC. That was my dad's ingenuity at work. I am glad he thought to do that too. Recently had to replace the sump and we replaced the wire in the process, just tied the old wire to the new, and lickety-spilt pulled the new wire through, no digging required, not to mention that PVC protects the wire from accidental shovel intrusions and moisture issues. Glad you guys liked that. :laughing: L8r g8r's thanks again.

~~Joey~~


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I hope you and your Dad have many more projects together. I just don't know what to say other than that.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> I hope you and your Dad have many more projects together. I just don't know what to say other than that.



:laughing: Yep, good to see that your still bonding... now just learn about grounding and you'll be all set.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

jejm1975 said:


> Ahh! I get it now, you are referring to the line to the sump that is running in the PVC. That was my dad's ingenuity at work. I am glad he thought to do that too.
> ~~Joey~~


I was kidding about liking the PVC water pipe. Although it works, it is a code violation. They make electrical PVC conduit.

But it's great that you found the problem and have things working. And removed the splices not in boxes. Those can be dangerous by causing fires.


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