# Time Saver for Angles



## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

After doing the drywall in my sons room, I found out just how hard it is to do gentle angles....90's are easy....they have a tool for that....but not for 33.5 deg.

Now that I'm ready to tackle the master bedroom with it's 11' high ceilings....and knowing how I hate heights....and how bad I am at angles....I'm trying something here.

As you can see in the pic....I have a flat section of ceiling (37" wide) and then it angles with the slope of the roof (22.5 deg). 



So rather than cut the drywall 37" wide......I scored the backside down the length at 5.5" on each side.





Gave it a gently little break.....



And lifted into position....



With the supervision of our cat Josie....



I must admit.....perfect seams....or lack of seams....but rather a perfect crease....or, what ever you want to call it....



I do have one 'less than perfect' spot where it meets the wall...the drywall did not break cleanly and my line went off straight a little....I'll see how bad it is when I get the sides up and some tape on the corners....if necessary, I'll cut the crease and tape it...it's only about 6"....but with the other lines absolutely perfect, it kind of stands out.

Side note...I tried the same method on 90's....no go....you have to be perfectly square....and when you go to screw the other piece, it pulls on the board and pulls the paper away...my guess is that anything more than a 45 needs tape.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

I think you did just fine!


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

Its not how you usually do it but i do not see why it wont work


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

are you prepare to do a major fix? instead of having a solid backing(mud) behind the paper you have air and the paper will continue to separate. Through time and even sooner when you paint. annnnnd ouch! if you try and texture this it will separate immeadiately causing air bubbles.
Sir, there is a reason things are done a certain way in drywall. Drywall is not easy and you're setting yourself up for a major disappointment. I seen this first hand.
fix it buy cutting the front side. use straightflex with joint compound and do it right to assure there will be no problems later on..


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

drywallfinisher said:


> are you prepare to do a major fix? instead of having a solid backing(mud) behind the paper you have air and the paper will continue to separate. Through time and even sooner when you paint. annnnnd ouch! if you try and texture this it will separate immeadiately causing air bubbles.
> Sir, there is a reason things are done a certain way in drywall. Drywall is not easy and you're setting yourself up for a major disappointment. I seen this first hand.
> fix it buy cutting the front side. use straightflex with joint compound and do it right to assure there will be no problems later on..


damn. and i thought his idea was awesome. 

what about putting tape and mud, or something else, on the backside before putting it up ?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Fix'n it said:


> damn. and i thought his idea was awesome.
> 
> what about putting tape and mud, or something else, on the backside before putting it up ?


 Yea, me too. It would be awesome if it would work.. But I have never seen it done by a pro. 

I guess what drywallfinisher is saying is that the paper at the joint has nothing to back it up, and will crack out?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

drywallfinisher said:


> are you prepare to do a major fix? instead of *having a solid backing(mud*) behind the paper you have air and the paper will continue to separate. Through time and even sooner when you paint. annnnnd ouch! if you try and texture this it will separate immeadiately causing air bubbles.
> Sir, there is a reason things are done a certain way in drywall. Drywall is not easy and you're setting yourself up for a major disappointment. I seen this first hand.
> fix it buy cutting the front side. use straightflex with joint compound and do it right to assure there will be no problems later on..


I'm going to disagree...

If I were to do this as you suggested.....I would still end up with a butt joint that would look like this....



Tape or no tape....I still end up with the same solid backing....I'm at a loss as to what the difference is going to be.....except my way....I have solid paper....

Now it is worth pointing out that any angle greater than this will have issues....I tried it on some other corners and I had issues where the paper did pull away when I went to screw down the other side.

Also notice in this pic that I'm showing the worst.....you can see where the line got a little off.....from the ground, it's almost impossible to see....still looks 100% better than a taped joint.

I'll take my chances....and report back in a few years if you end up being right.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Have to agree with drywaller, 
I can see what he's saying about any finish applied to the bend will sooner or later soak through that paper with no gypsum behind it. 
I also thought cutting the rock the way you did is/was an awesome idea to concur that problem.


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## princelake (Feb 19, 2012)

that method works but i definitely dont have the balls to attempt it on a ceiling angle like that. i've done it in a closet where it wont be seen or where there is a doorway close to a wall and it saves you cutting a 2" strip and taping it. 
to get perfect angles on that ceiling i recommend using no coats ultra flex 450


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

I have and probrley would never do it this way but i dont see why it would not work.You have recesed seems like that anyway.The only problem that i could see is the tape coming loose eventually on the angle iam a hanger and not much of a tapper so i couldnt really answer the long term effect.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> I guess what drywallfinisher is saying is that the paper at the joint has nothing to back it up, and will crack out?


Well let's think about this, because I love the basic concept.

A regular seam has tape, and the tape is embedded in compound. It's true that compound gets pressed into the gap behind the tape, but that could very easily be done here too, just by scraping compound in there before you put it up. Certainly it's not structural in a regular joint, or in this joint.

So the next problem is simply that most paper tape has compound on top of it. Well that would be easily handled by simply laying a bead of compound on that seam and then tooling it with a bat knife. Problem solved, as far as I can tell. That would also help cover up the minor inconsistencies he was complaining about in his photo. I'll definitely be trying this next chance I get.

http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Corner-Trowels/CornerPro-Drywall-Bat-Knife.html


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Sorry but I have to vote on the side that doesn't think it will work. I think this is an area you will have an ongoing cracking problem


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Any predictions on when or how soon it will crack or the paper will separate?

I'm going to save a copy of this link and update everyone in a few weeks (months/years). 

If some of you are right, then the update should be in a few weeks...if your wrong....well, the update might take awhile....


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I don't know if it will crack or not, but I've seen joints like that crack when taped the standard method. It's all about framing deflection- if the wood moves-it'll crack


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

princelake said:


> that method works but i definitely dont have the balls to attempt it on a ceiling angle like that. i've done it in a closet where it wont be seen or where there is a doorway close to a wall and it saves you cutting a 2" strip and taping it.
> to get perfect angles on that ceiling i recommend using no coats ultra flex 450


+1 under stairwell closets is the only place I've seen this used in professional applications.


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

ddawg16 said:


> Any predictions on when or how soon it will crack or the paper will separate?
> 
> I'm going to save a copy of this link and update everyone in a few weeks (months/years).
> 
> If some of you are right, then the update should be in a few weeks...if your wrong....well, the update might take awhile....


I like this idea.

it's an attic space with batting insulation, the wood looks time tested and blocked real good. .........I never spotted whether you are texturing or not?
either way ....*I dont think it will even make it to a primer coat of paint*. Reason being if you dont texture, you have to sand the joints that run into that angle. the top side where all the angles meet on the wall _specifically_. once you apply pressure to sand, the paper will start pulling loose. The more I think about it, the more I tend to seeing this happen even just after the tape coat. wiping your tape tight could pull the paper right off the rock.
I want to see a picture of that intersection while the paint is still wet with a 500watt light shining down wind. make me a believer


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## scottktmrider (Jul 1, 2012)

TheEplumber said:


> I don't know if it will crack or not, but I've seen joints like that crack when taped the standard method. It's all about framing deflection- if the wood moves-it'll crack


Thats why on an agle like this you need to use straightflex tape over regular.And it will give you a nice straight line


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## listo (Nov 19, 2008)

Cool.......


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

cool as in dont try it, or cool as in Wow this will work? because it wont work. Straightflex all the way...do it right.
I also dis-agree, to some extent, with the reason straightflex turns loose. You're right about wood movement, but even the makers of Straightflex seen their flaw and fixed it. They came out with a revamped version. It now comes with perferations that "hold" the mud. You have to scrape the tits off before coating the stuff but it holds much much better than the older version. 
still waiting for the pics...be humble bro, there's people that might actually try this, and that IMO, is reckless if you keep endorsing this Idea. dont take any offense. It's just bad practice


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

I applaud your clever pioneering. If it all ends up good you can take a well deserved bow. It it goes to s#!t then its is the cat's fault.


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## listo (Nov 19, 2008)

drywallfinisher said:


> cool as in dont try it, or cool as in Wow this will work


Actually it was cool as in I looked at the date and saw it was from 2011 so I said well Where's the update, but then I realized 2011 was the date the last guy that commented became a member so I couldn't figure out how to delete my post so I edited it and I didn't have anything productive to say so I just wrote cool. Lol. 

But cool if it works but it sounds like it won't from what most are saying


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I'll be taping and mudding next week...so I'll let you know how it works out...

As and FYI....there are a couple spots I had to cut...main issue being that it was a difficult angle and I didn't get the folded portion cut right...as a result...I had some paper pull...

So, yes, things have to line up and sized properly....if the cut on the back side is not in the right spot, you will get the paper pulling away....

But still....considering how much I have to do...the parts that did work is saving me a ton of time.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I know sawing is frowned upon for the obvious reasons, but in this case, could you get a nearly perfect line if you used some kind of thin kerf saw instead of a knife and snapping, and set the depth for 3/8"?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

jeffnc said:


> I know sawing is frowned upon for the obvious reasons, but in this case, could you get a nearly perfect line if you used some kind of thin kerf saw instead of a knife and snapping, and set the depth for 3/8"?


I use a straight edge....and make multiple passes with the blade...my line is straight...as well as the break....the issue is that if you look at the angles...if your split (break) is not exactly on the angle of the wood, one side gets pushed out relative to the other one and the paper pulls up..

Go up and look at the one pic where I show the edge of one sheet...

It's easy to line up when one side is not too large...not so easy if both sides are big.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Didn't know you had multiple threads on same subject so here it is again;On another note.... before you drywall the lid/walls, pull the stapling flanges (leave just enough to hold it up) from the sides of the studs (inset stapling) because it creates air channels there forcing convective looping and the empty spaces give heat/air transfer to the ridge from the lower areas. Pages 45-48;http://www.buildingscienceconsulting...Measure_Up.pdf

In order for air-permeable fiberglass (creates many small dead-air spaces) to be most effective, it needs full contact with the drywall; *pp.2 *"Making contact"- http://www.advancedinsulationinc.com...Insulation.pdf this will stop any air movement there giving a reduction in R-value. It requires an air barrier next to it. ADA the drywall for optimum performance; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...rtight-drywall

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/

The drywall material itself is the air barrier, with a gap at the hinge of the slopes, the paper alone is left to stop diffusion/infiltration/exfiltration. At least reinforce the joint with additional paper tape/mud because the material now has a void area which is the weakest link of the continuity of the air barrier. The hot outside/attic air will condense on the thin paper joint with the AC on, causing wetting; especially as your thermal barrier doesn't follow the air barrier but continues up the slope leaving a big attic area with extra heat from the air spaces left in the cavity corners depositing there. Is the asphalt coated paper code required for your location? *Fig.11*; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...vapor-barriers

Just back-fill some mud in the open crack before next sheet... 

I've only done a half dozen sloping joints, though I used a long hand rasp to bevel the raw edge for a better fit on all. Once you cut the paper straight, the planning is easier. 

Gary


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Old thread but I thought I'd provide an update of the end result.

The above works.....with in limitations. 

Here are some pics....

Upstairs master bedroom. You would be hard pressed to find any seams.
I had one spot where the line was not perfectly straight. I put a shallow coat of mud in the crease which 'softened' the line and made the defect disappear. 



This is a short section of space between two doors....a tough area to work in. My method worked great hear. I really didn't need to put mud over the screws since they will be covered by molding.





So....in summary

It works a lot better if you make the cut really deep....at least half way through the thickness of the drywall. That way, when you break it, the line is straight.

It's hard to control on long runs. Just too much room for errors. It works best for tight spots and short sections.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again


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## Beepster (Oct 19, 2009)

All I am thinking is how the hell did you get that piece up there? Were the 5.5" cut edges just hanging by the paper, or did you have help holding up both edges so they wouldn't be weakened by hanging by just the paper??

I am a CPA so I won't weigh in on whether this works or fails. However, you did save $2.49 by not having to throw those 5.5" pieces away so the CPA in me says two thumbs up.

B


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## hboogz (Mar 21, 2012)

Great Thread. Since I'm a beginner, just curious for those that would prefer to use straight0-flex for this, which straight flex product would have worked in this application? I see many different types at HD. Thanks!

Very clever work ddawg, I've always wondered how guys handled those offset inside corner angles on walls. 33.5 degrees or otherwise.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm curious... Who did the insulation?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Beepster said:


> All I am thinking is how the hell did you get that piece up there? Were the 5.5" cut edges just hanging by the paper, or did you have help holding up both edges so they wouldn't be weakened by hanging by just the paper??
> 
> I am a CPA so I won't weigh in on whether this works or fails. However, you did save $2.49 by not having to throw those 5.5" pieces away so the CPA in me says two thumbs up.
> 
> B


I did it all by myself. I just let them hang....the paper is actually quite strong. I had run a chalk line to make sure it all lined up. Anchored one corner....then lined up the other....screwed it into place.



hboogz said:


> Great Thread. Since I'm a beginner, just curious for those that would prefer to use straight0-flex for this, which straight flex product would have worked in this application? I see many different types at HD. Thanks!
> 
> Very clever work ddawg, I've always wondered how guys handled those offset inside corner angles on walls. 33.5 degrees or otherwise.


Those odd corners are just hard...period. Not have to mud them was a great time saver. Even though I did toss some mud on them to soften the edge, that work was a lot easier (only 2 passes) vs the 4-5 passes it takes using tape.

As far as corners go....I doubt I'll ever use the paper corners again. Metal takes a little longer to install...but, gives you a much nicer edge to work with. It's too easy for the paper/metal edging to slip or not fit the way you want it.



Docfletcher said:


> I'm curious... Who did the insulation?


A licensed company in El Segundo....

If you see issues....remember, I'm in Southern California....until recently, they didn't even insulate the walls on houses.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

The insulation install is wrong but typical. The purpose of that method is to appease the drywallers. Just remember drywallers are in and out in a few short days but you must live with insulation installed wrong forever.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

How is it wrong?


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## Beepster (Oct 19, 2009)

I would guess that he means that the paper "tabs" on the side of each batt should be stapled to the 2x4, overlapping with each other and creating a continuous "barrier".

B


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Beepster said:


> I would guess that he means that the paper "tabs" on the side of each batt should be stapled to the 2x4, overlapping with each other and creating a continuous "barrier".
> 
> B


I thought that might have been it....

If I lived 'up north', yea, I'd want it that way.

but...

I live 4 miles from the beach. My windows stay open 9 months out of the year. A cold snap is when the temp gets below 40 deg...F

The skylight in the master bath has not been closed in 2 months...

Winter garments are typically a sweatshirt to go along with those shorts. 

I think I'm going to be ok.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

ddawg16 said:


> How is it wrong?


The insulation isn't to be compressed but if we add up the linear inches in a room on each side of 2 x lumber, pertinent walls and ceiling, where it's compressed we get a huge number. To me that's more important than the vapor barrier but the VB factor is still there.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm guessing you don't have a vent system in place above the insulation with the insulation 1 1/2" away from the roof sheathing.. Here in the Northeast insulation directly against the roof sheathing is a huge no no.. I don't know about So. Ca. Hot sun heats the roof, condensation forms but does not evaporate as it has nowhere to go. Roof sheathing begins to rot from the underside. Roof life compromised. When one re-roofs the the damaged sheathing will need replacing. 

This may be a non issue in your neck of the woods though. So this is just a heads up so you can check it out for your situation.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Docfletcher said:


> I'm guessing you don't have a vent system in place above the insulation with the insulation 1 1/2" away from the roof sheathing.. Here in the Northeast insulation directly against the roof sheathing is a huge no no.. I don't know about So. Ca. Hot sun heats the roof, condensation forms but does not evaporate as it has nowhere to go. Roof sheathing begins to rot from the underside. Roof life compromised. When one re-roofs the the damaged sheathing will need replacing. This may be a non issue in your neck of the woods though. So this is just a heads up so you can check it out for your situation.


A vent is not needed....but I do have a way for any moisture to get out. 

I'm tied up this evening so it's hard to post pics. I'll post up tomorrow sometime with pics that will help. 

Btw....if you look at the first post you will notice there is a channel at the peak. I provided a way for air to get out.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

You mean the channel below the insulation? Here in New England air must flow from the soffit area over the insulation topside toward the ridge vent. 1&1/2" is recommended.Otherwise the insulation absorbs the trapped moisture between it and the underside of the sheathing.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Docfletcher said:


> I'm guessing you don't have a vent system in place above the insulation with the insulation 1 1/2" away from the roof sheathing.. Here in the Northeast insulation directly against the roof sheathing is a huge no no.. I don't know about So. Ca. Hot sun heats the roof, condensation forms but does not evaporate as it has nowhere to go. Roof sheathing begins to rot from the underside. Roof life compromised. When one re-roofs the the damaged sheathing will need replacing.
> 
> This may be a non issue in your neck of the woods though. So this is just a heads up so you can check it out for your situation.


You were wondering about venting...

I don't have any eve vents...but any air or moisture that gets up into the channel at the top of the ceiling can get out here. I can pull off the cap and actually reach down and feel the insulation at the top...bone dry.

And don't forget the relative humidity here is actually quite low for being so close to the ocean.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Sounds like you got it covered. Still i'd be mindful of moisture getting insulation wet in areas of no or little airflow. Insulation can suffocate the roof sheathing thus preventing any convective currents from drying moisture out. 

Seems like your confident in your approach so enjoy the fruits of your labor.


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## hboogz (Mar 21, 2012)

Doc - Perhaps I should open up a new thread, but was curious if you could elaborate a bit further how this concept works and the differences between say a flat roof and hipped roof setup ?



Docfletcher said:


> Sounds like you got it covered. Still i'd be mindful of moisture getting insulation wet in areas of no or little airflow. Insulation can suffocate the roof sheathing thus preventing any convective currents from drying moisture out.
> 
> Seems like your confident in your approach so enjoy the fruits of your labor.


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

Well as I understand it moisture from inside the home itself finds it's way to the cool backside of the roof sheathing where it condenses into water droplets. The insulation gets wet where it contacts the sheathing and because it can't escape (IE: evaporate) causing the sheathing to begin to rot.

The old school method was to install 1 & 1/2" deep vent baffle's which went from the soffit up to ridge went. Properly done it was effective. 

Now however it has been more or less proven that the best system is no vent air tight system. Polyiso sheet stock (Rigid board) and sprayed polyiso is proving itself everyday. No air infiltration means no moisture.

Cathedral and hip lines fit the bill for the above. I'm not sure about flat roofs. But, I see no reason for then to be any different. I'm not a builder so I'm no expert. knowledgable 

There is I believe, lots of info on the subject online. When I did my Cathedral in the bath I used polyiso.

A Man Convinced Against His Will Is Of The Same Opinion Still.


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## hboogz (Mar 21, 2012)

Docfletcher said:


> Well as I understand it moisture from inside the home itself finds it's way to the cool backside of the roof sheathing where it condenses into water droplets. The insulation gets wet where it contacts the sheathing and because it can't escape (IE: evaporate) causing the sheathing to begin to rot.


Thanks for the reply. Following the above, if condensation were to form on the cool side of the roof sheathing wouldn't those same droplets fall onto the finished sheetrock if there were no insulation?


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## Docfletcher (Aug 1, 2007)

A couple might. I don't know. But for the most part such moisture would escape to outside the home or not collect at all because of the open air concept of no insulation. 

Many older, like 100 year old homes never had moisture issues in the roof lines because there was no insulation and lots drafty air moving through the house. Moisture issues reared their ugly head when folks tried to make the homes more energy wise by adding insulation etc. 

In my post which hboogz quoted me it looks like I could have worded the "areas of little or no airflow" better. If their were no air flow as a in a sealed system there would be no air movement, hence no moisture issue.


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