# May I replace my own furnace???



## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm in Calgary, AB and I'm wondering if it's a big deal(legaly or otherwise) to replace my own furnace? 

I would need to sleeve my old brick chimney and then it's just the gas, electrical and duct work. Gas, electrical and ducting should be pretty straight forward with the ducting being a bit of a pain labor wise. The chimney sleeve I'm not too sure about though....

Any advice or thoughts are appreciated.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Hate to break the bad news to you. Only licensed gas fitters can take out a permit and install furnaces in Canada, period. Apprentices can do the work if the gas fitter trusts them and hangs his name on the permit. I won't. All furnaces have to be 92% efficient and do not use chimneys any more. No cash and carry furnaces in Canada. No warranty for anyone other than a dealer. No permit, no house insurance if something goes wrong either. We have ambulance chasing lawyers here too.

Sorry.


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks Yuri, I was hoping you'd chime in. :thumbsup:

I thought the gas might be a legal issue but can I not install everything else and then have a gas fitter get the permit and do the final connection?

I have a 80% eff furnace on hold(built before Jan 1/10) so I'm okay there. I didn't realize that the 92% eff ones don't use a chimney. Does this make the installation of the 92% efficient and higher ones easier/cheaper than the 80% ones that would need to have the old brick chimney sleeved? I'm just wondering if I'd be wasting money on labor when I should have put it towards a better furnace.

I plan on selling the place in a couple years so what I'm looking for is my best bang for my buck.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You can install it but most gas fitters will want quite a bit of $$ to take out a permit etc, unless you know someone. The liner needs to meet the code also, and we have to use B Vent in masonry chimneys or it will freezeup. $500-600 for a 1 story, up to $800 for a 2 story from a pro chimney company. Not sure what the best bang for your buck is. If you don't plan to stay there I would get a cheap Ducane/Air Flo or cheap Goodman installed and skip the chimney liner etc. What are you using to heat the house with now? Oil?


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Sorry Yuri, but in BC and Alberta (we recently harmonized our gas regulations) the only people that can pull a permit are gas contractors and homeowners. Being a gasfitter, I can't even pull a permit. I can do the work, but it has to be under a permit pulled by a gas contractor. 

Homeowners can pull a homeowners permit, but there are certain conditions such as it has to be the home they live in, no renters, they do the work and do not pay anyone else to do it. Avro1, google Alberta's Gas Act and Regulations, or call whomever is in charge of issuing permits in your city. I'm not saying that you can do it for sure, but they may let you.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You do need to contact your local authorities but the gas code and permit and proper installation etc etc all need to be followed. And then there is the insurance companies who want it all done right. I work for a company and let them handle all the liabilities. The problem is if there is ever a fire or problem now or in the future and someone comes back at you with a lawsuit. You are assumed to be guilty until proven innocent and have to pay a lawyer a lot of $$ by the hour to accomplish that. Ignorance of the law and "details" is no excuse. I had a crazy customer with lots of $$ and few brains try sue us for a "lack of heat/inconvenience" scheme he dreamed up. It is *NO* fun when you have to deal with a lawsuit. Our lawyer got rid of him when we found out he ran out of fuel himself.:wink: Caused us a bunch of aggravation in the process.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

If the furnace is over-sized, it will not be able to maintain the advertised efficiency because of operating limits.

A 90+ efficiency furnace usually has 2 PVC pipes; one for intake and one for venting that are usually run horizontally and a conventional chimney is not needed. An 80% will use the same vertical conventional chimney/liner as older furnaces did. I bought a 80% unit because of venting problems and finished walls in my townhouse, but I did pop for the extra luxury, operating economy and comfort of a DC variable speed fan.

Dick


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

What kind of water heater do you have.
Electric or gas?


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I'll check with the city to see what they say about a permit. From what I see on their web site, electrical and gas permits are treated about the same in that a home owner can get them for his own home. 

For those that asked, my current furnace is about a 50 year old gas one. My water heater is gas also and uses the same chimney. From what I understand if I were to install a 90% or higher furnace I wouldn't be able to use my chimney anymore. Also if I still used the chimney for the water heater vent I'd still have to install a liner so either way I'm looking at a chimney liner....right?


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

yuri said:


> All furnaces have to be 92% efficient



Let me guess... government subsidies if you can't afford it? Or do they let you freeze?

While I'd like us all to have the most green, efficient heating possible, IT COSTS.

Socialism stinks.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

avro1 said:


> Also if I still used the chimney for the water heater vent I'd still have to install a liner so either way I'm looking at a chimney liner....right?


Yep. Or get a direct vent water heater also.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

operagost said:


> Let me guess... government subsidies if you can't afford it? Or do they let you freeze?
> 
> While I'd like us all to have the most green, efficient heating possible, IT COSTS.


It saves.

80% furnaces cost more money to use every year. Upgrading to a 90%+ only cost more upfront to install once.


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

Well I checked with the city and even though it's listed as "Plumbing and Gas" permits(which a home owner can get), the home owner can only take out a plumbing permit. Looks like they have me over a barrel on this one over a simple gas connection. 

It's along story as to why I wanted to do the install myself but maybe I can work with the furnace installer and do the whole install less the gas line. Then when it's time he can take out the permit and connect the existing gas line to the new furnace.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

operagost said:


> Let me guess... government subsidies if you can't afford it? Or do they let you freeze?
> 
> While I'd like us all to have the most green, efficient heating possible, IT COSTS.
> 
> Socialism stinks.


 It's not that much more up front to get a 92+ instead of a 80%. The fuel savings will pay for the difference many times over in the life of a furnace. The high eff models also have a lifetime heat exchanger warranty. An out of warranty heat exchanger replacement will cost more then orginal price difference so in the long run the 80%er costs you twice as much or more.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Avro. There are a couple of EcoEnergy rebates from the federal government. You will get $790 - $250 for the inspection to upgrade your furnace. I would go with an electric water heater and plug the chimney. Saves a LOT of energy going up the 4" chimney liner you will now need for the gas heater. Like I said find someone who sells Ducane or AireFlo (not a bad entry level unit). Business is slowing down a lot in March so someone will want your business. Socialism isn't bad. We have great wedding socials (beer bashes) Manitoba/Sask tradition and get plenty socialable with the ole Prairie lube (Labatts Blue).:drink::w00t::drink::laughing:


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

yuri, I'll check into those furnaces but the problem will be finding a 80% efficient one now. The furnace guy that I had given a deposit to is in the middle of screwing me over(long story) so that's why I'm looking into installing one myself. I want to do this as cheap as possible. I'll see what I can find out...

As for socials, ya one of the great things that I miss about Manitoba(grew up near Dauphin). One of the things that I don't miss though is the mosquitos!:no:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

hvac benny said:


> Sorry Yuri, but in BC and Alberta (we recently harmonized our gas regulations) the only people that can pull a permit are gas contractors and homeowners. Being a gasfitter, I can't even pull a permit. I can do the work, but it has to be under a permit pulled by a gas contractor.
> 
> Homeowners can pull a homeowners permit, but there are certain conditions such as it has to be the home they live in, no renters, they do the work and do not pay anyone else to do it. Avro1, google Alberta's Gas Act and Regulations, or call whomever is in charge of issuing permits in your city. I'm not saying that you can do it for sure, but they may let you.


are you related to a guy named JRbenny?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

avro1 said:


> Thanks Yuri, I was hoping you'd chime in. :thumbsup:
> 
> I thought the gas might be a legal issue but can I not install everything else and then have a gas fitter get the permit and do the final connection?
> 
> ...




Don't know if this has been mentioned but you can use the old chimney as achase and run the PVC pipe in it along with a power vented water heater.
Or go for an electric water heater.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

avro1 said:


> yuri, I'll check into those furnaces but the problem will be finding a 80% efficient one now. The furnace guy that I had given a deposit to is in the middle of screwing me over(long story) so that's why I'm looking into installing one myself. I want to do this as cheap as possible. I'll see what I can find out...
> 
> As for socials, ya one of the great things that I miss about Manitoba(grew up near Dauphin). One of the things that I don't miss though is the mosquitos!:no:


Trying to stay with an 80% was a method of trying to do it cheap as possible. And look where it got you.


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Trying to stay with an 80% was a method of trying to do it cheap as possible. And look where it got you.


All due respect but you're wrong.

I am in the situation that I am because I trusted a HVAC guy that has done alot of work for my brother and a good friend. I already had three other quotes in the range of $3,100-$3,400 and was about to get one of them to do it when my brother suggested that I call "his guy". So I did. He was too busy to come and look but said that if give him my quotes that he'd beat them so I did and he said he'd do it for $2,700. Fair enough. 

This all started before Christmas and since he was busy, my furnace was still working and I could "trust" the guy I didn't push him to get it done. Well enoughs enough so he finally came by a couple weeks ago to drop off my new furnace and said that because my set-up was so old that there was no way that he could do it for $2,700 and now the price was $3,450. I did exactly what he said and he went back on his word.

I wanted an 80% furnace because they are alot cheaper but as of Jan 1st can't be made or imported into Canada so existing stock is all there is and when they're gone they're gone. At this point no one wants to install them anyways so either I'm stuck with this guy or I have to do it myself.

So that's why I'm where I'm at. I tried to get the best price from a guy that I should have been able to trust. 

I really don't get your comment about trying to do something as cheap as possible, after all this is a DIY forum is it not????

Thanks for your input though, it really helps....:whistling2:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

avro1 said:


> All due respect but you're wrong.
> 
> I am in the situation that I am because I trusted a HVAC guy that has done alot of work for my brother and a good friend. I already had three other quotes in the range of $3,100-$3,400 and was about to get one of them to do it when my brother suggested that I call "his guy". So I did. He was too busy to come and look but said that if give him my quotes that he'd beat them so I did and he said he'd do it for $2,700. Fair enough.
> 
> ...


Avro your story is text book classic. The guy should never have quoted you that price with out looking at the job and you should not have accepted
a bid until he looked at it. (Especially since it is so old. That should have thrown up a red flag immediately).

I get scores of people who want a phone estimate but I tell them I need to see the job to quote an exact figure. If they insist I give them a figure based on what they tell me the furnace looks like and the surrounding area.

When I get there I always find some thing left out of the phone conversation. And of course that drives the price higher.

This is exactly the scenario you have. 

Like I said I never give a firm price on the phone. It's just not possible.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> are you related to a guy named JRbenny?


Nope. Are you related to Ed Lover?:laughing:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

hvac benny said:


> Nope. Are you related to Ed Lover?:laughing:


If he is a **** star, yeah. I'm his stand in:jester:


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Avro your story is text book classic. The guy should never have quoted you that price with out looking at the job and you should not have accepted
> a bid until he looked at it. (Especially since it is so old. That should have thrown up a red flag immediately).
> 
> I get scores of people who want a phone estimate but I tell them I need to see the job to quote an exact figure. If they insist I give them a figure based on what they tell me the furnace looks like and the surrounding area.
> ...


Yes I realize this has turned into a classic scenario but it's not because I went looking for a over the phone quote. It's because I trusted a guy that does lots of HVAC work and most importantly had a good rep for doing work for my brother and his good friend. Infact he's the one that told me to get quotes(which I already had anyways) and that he would base his price on those!

Anyways the point to my thread was can I install my own furnace and it looks like I can with the blessing of a gas fitter so I'll look into that. Will it be a pain in the butt? Probably but just out of principle I'd rather do it myself rather than carry on and get this guy to bend me over on something else. Honesty and trust is a BIG thing with me, kind of like sealing a deal with a hand shake the old fashion way and he has lost it with me!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

avro1 said:


> Yes I realize this has turned into a classic scenario but it's not because I went looking for a over the phone quote. It's because I trusted a guy that does lots of HVAC work and most importantly had a good rep for doing work for my brother and his good friend. Infact he's the one that told me to get quotes(which I already had anyways) and that he would base his price on those!
> 
> Anyways the point to my thread was can I install my own furnace and it looks like I can with the blessing of a gas fitter so I'll look into that. Will it be a pain in the butt? Probably but just out of principle I'd rather do it myself rather than carry on and get this guy to bend me over on something else. Honesty and trust is a BIG thing with me, kind of like sealing a deal with a hand shake the old fashion way and he has lost it with me!


Phone or not, the point is insist on a in home quote and have the guy look at what he has to be done. Now you have lost confidence in the guy you trusted and the contractor (as far as I am concerned) got what he deserved for not doing his job correctly.
You gonna start is this week?


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Phone or not, the point is insist on a in home quote and have the guy look at what he has to be done. Now you have lost confidence in the guy you trusted and the contractor (as far as I am concerned) got what he deserved for not doing his job correctly.
> You gonna start is this week?


That's the sad part...I did insist that he come look and his answer was that he was too busy to spend two hours making a quote if he wasn''t going to get the job. Seriously.... 

For now I'm going to try and buy the furnace off of him that he did get for me. If that doesn't work I guess I be stuck putting in a higher effiency one for alot more money. At any rate I won't be doing this until July or August because I know it will take me a while and then I won't have the pressure to get it done before "the pipes freeze"!:thumbsup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

avro1 said:


> That's the sad part...I did insist that he come look and his answer was that he was too busy to spend two hours making a quote if he wasn''t going to get the job. Seriously....
> 
> For now I'm going to try and buy the furnace off of him that he did get for me. If that doesn't work I guess I be stuck putting in a higher effiency one for alot more money. At any rate I won't be doing this until July or August because I know it will take me a while and then I won't have the pressure to get it done before "the pipes freeze"!:thumbsup:



If the guy said he was too busy you were getting blown off for what ever reason. You are better off. 

If I am busy I am not going to turn the business away. I will give a person the first open date I have. It's up to the homeowner to accept or decline if it's not soon enough.

If I am not interested in a particular job I won't take it and I will be up front about it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

avro1 said:


> All due respect but you're wrong.
> 
> I am in the situation that I am because I trusted a HVAC guy that has done alot of work for my brother and a good friend. I already had three other quotes in the range of $3,100-$3,400 and was about to get one of them to do it when my brother suggested that I call "his guy". So I did. He was too busy to come and look but said that if give him my quotes that he'd beat them so I did and he said he'd do it for $2,700. Fair enough.
> 
> ...


Your "I wanted an 80% furnace because they are alot cheaper" is trying to do it as cheap as possible. You tried to slip under the wire, that why you got estimates in december, so you could get the cheaper upfront cost 80%.

Its what hurts lots of home owners/customers. they only look at the upfront cost. And not the long term implications.

Never said anything against you doing it yourself. Just against using a 80% furnace.

Wanna DIY, thats fine. Do it right, and put a 90% in.


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Your "I wanted an 80% furnace because they are alot cheaper" is trying to do it as cheap as possible. You tried to slip under the wire, that why you got estimates in december, so you could get the cheaper upfront cost 80%.
> 
> Its what hurts lots of home owners/customers. they only look at the upfront cost. And not the long term implications.
> 
> ...


Well I thought I could trust him based on all the work he as done for my brother and his friend because they both speak quite highly of him...guess I was wrong. 

I wasn't trying to be as cheap as possible, more like as economical as possible so I'll still try for a 80% furnace. If I can't then I'll have no other choice but to get a higher efficiency one. I won't get a nickle more for the place but I'm sure the next owner will like it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

avro1 said:


> Well I thought I could trust him based on all the work he as done for my brother and his friend because they both speak quite highly of him...guess I was wrong.
> 
> He probably came out and saw their jobs before he gave a price. Or only did small repairs or alterations to systems.
> 
> I wasn't trying to be as cheap as possible, more like as economical as possible so I'll still try for a 80% furnace. If I can't then I'll have no other choice but to get a higher efficiency one. I won't get a nickle more for the place but I'm sure the next owner will like it.


Min equipment efficiency rating requirements aren't to save you much money. They are to benefit everyone by cutting down on consumption of our resources.

However. If sized properly. A 90% will save you more money in heating cost then you think. It will save more then its 10 increase in efficiency. But, it does have to be the proper size. And I'm guessing you haven't done a load calc to see what size is the proper size for your home.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

avro1 said:


> _*Well I thought I could trust him based on all the work he as done for my brother and his friend because they both speak quite highly of him...guess I was wrong. *_
> 
> I wasn't trying to be as cheap as possible, more like as economical as possible so I'll still try for a 80% furnace. If I can't then I'll have no other choice but to get a higher efficiency one. I won't get a nickle more for the place but I'm sure the next owner will like it.


And logically that is what I would have done myself. There is nothing better than a highly recommended hvac company. The track record is there and you have people who you know and trust to vouch for the contractor. No foul there.

And although you won't recoup your total install cost you CAN get a little more for the house. Let's say you get a buyer with the old system still in the home. Typically the buyers would want a concession on the selling price because the of the old furnace.
Conversely with a new system you can get a bit more on the place cause you do have a system that makes it worth a tad more.


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> And logically that is what I would have done myself. There is nothing better than a highly recommended hvac company. The track record is there and you have people who you know and trust to vouch for the contractor. No foul there.
> 
> And although you won't recoup your total install cost you CAN get a little more for the house. Let's say you get a buyer with the old system still in the home. Typically the buyers would want a concession on the selling price because the of the old furnace.
> Conversely with a new system you can get a bit more on the place cause you do have a system that makes it worth a tad more.


Not being able to recoup my total investment is why I had wanted to go with an 80% furnace. I talked to two realtors and they both said that buyers will deduct for my old furnace(as you said) but won't pay anymore for a high efficiency one so that is another reason for going mid.

beenthere, That's a good point, I'll ask my brother if he came and looked at his last job. I know some of his other jobs were new installs. This guy obviously didn't do a load calculation but two others did and they were both in the 74k-77k btu range and they both recommended a 80k btu furnace. The once contractor didn't do a load calculation and just flat out said that a 80k would be good and I was surprized that he could "guess" that close but I guess if you do enough of them you can do that.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Did you see the actual load calc those 2 others did?

Did they spend a lot of time measuring your windows doors and rooms?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Did you see the actual load calc those 2 others did?
> 
> Did they spend a lot of time measuring your windows doors and rooms?


moot point now Been...


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## avro1 (Nov 29, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Did you see the actual load calc those 2 others did?
> 
> Did they spend a lot of time measuring your windows doors and rooms?


I did have a quick glance at them but wasn't really all that interested at the time so I can't say what all was on them. One guy spent a little over an hour and the other guy a bit less. I don't remember them taking measurments but they did go in all the rooms, looked at the windows and asked what the square footage was and so forth.

Why do you ask?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

How much of a deposit did you give "the guy"? What brand and model # is it. He may jack you up several hundred $$ if you try buy it from him. Lost revenue on his part as he could have sold it to someone else and made at least $1000 on the install. I know the relative price of different mids and you may just want to walk away from him rather than sink good $$ after bad $$. Not worth the stress IMO.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Windows & doors are heat loss areas
Porgrams I have used require you to input the sizes in sq ft of windows & doors
I've measured all of mine & have them for reference
I also know all the walls/ceilings etc & what insulation is where


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## Mr Dodge (Feb 6, 2010)

Avro,
Try not to count yours brothers guy out so soon. I know you feel lied to and betrayed right now, but I have worked for, with, & employed craft/tradesmen all my life. All have been honest,honorable men, a few a little cocky & *ricks but honorable nonetheless. I'm sure he even feels bad about jacking the price after seeing it in person. There lies the culprit, a valuable piece of information was not brought to light over the phone and he sees he can't make wages for the cheaper price, period. 
However time is on your side, time I feel, needs to be spent making another deal with him. Your posts read you have 5 months, he has a furnace he may or may not be able to re-sell. You won't get it done for the initial price but you guys could meet in the middle. Peace of mind after the install is worth more than you think. Just my .02


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Mr Dodge said:


> Avro,
> Try not to count yours brothers guy out so soon. I know you feel lied to and betrayed right now, but I have worked for, with, & employed craft/tradesmen all my life. All have been honest,honorable men, a few a little cocky & *ricks but honorable nonetheless. I'm sure he even feels bad about jacking the price after seeing it in person. There lies the culprit, a valuable piece of information was not brought to light over the phone and he sees he can't make wages for the cheaper price, period.
> However time is on your side, time I feel, needs to be spent making another deal with him. Your posts read you have 5 months, he has a furnace he may or may not be able to re-sell. You won't get it done for the initial price but you guys could meet in the middle. Peace of mind after the install is worth more than you think. Just my .02


Nope. The guy broke a cardinal rule of reputable hvac contractors. He quoted the job sight unseen. You don't go back on your quoted price just as a homeowner should not back on the price once the job is done.
His guy screwed up. And I don't think I would use him even if he went back to the agreed upon price.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

avro1 said:


> I did have a quick glance at them but wasn't really all that interested at the time so I can't say what all was on them. One guy spent a little over an hour and the other guy a bit less. I don't remember them taking measurments but they did go in all the rooms, looked at the windows and asked what the square footage was and so forth.
> 
> Why do you ask?



Because if they didn't measure everything. Then they didn't do an actual load calc. They did a rule of thumb guess. With a few bits of info.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Mr Dodge said:


> However time is on your side, time I feel, needs to be spent making another deal with him. Your posts read you have 5 months, he has a furnace he may or may not be able to re-sell. You won't get it done for the initial price but you guys could meet in the middle. Peace of mind after the install is worth more than you think. Just my .02


Doubt he'll have any trouble selling that furnace to someone else for the price he wants.


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