# Solar Panels on the roof



## chandler48

Will the array be large enough to make it economically feasible with ROI? I am not a fan of punching holes in an otherwise non leaking roof, and that is what you will be doing with each fastener. Then, what about when it is time to reroof??? Will it all have to be detached to be roofed? $$$


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## Old Thomas

I like to minimize penetrations in my roof. If I were to have a tumor push on my brain, go insane, and get solar panels, I would get the ones that go on the deck and become part of the roof.


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## SPS-1

I have not pulled the trigger, but have looked into it.

If you are doing it yourself, first you need to research the regulations,and check with your power company that they have capacity to accept your connection (I assume you want to be grid tied). Also check the monetary deal on what they pay when you are feeding power into the grid.

There are a few online calculators where you can input your location, angle of roof, size of array and get back the power you will get each month.

Be aware that if the grid goes down, you don't have power from your solar panels. SMA did have an inverter that allows getting power from your panels when the grid is down, but new rapid-shut-down requirements made that functionality impossible.

A big decision is the flashing system for mounting the racking. I am impressed by few systems. And some people will just screw a hanger bolt into the roof and put sealant around it (unacceptable IMHO).

You also have to decide on one big string inverter vs many microinverters. While some of the microinverters have optimizers that maximize the power output if some of the panels are shaded, I don't want electronics in the wind/rain/heat in a poorly accessible location. Also, they are proprietary, and by the time one fails, good chance they don't make it anymore. If you got one big string inverter in your basement, it is a commodity and can be replaced by any other string inverter, if it ever fails.


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## Deja-vue

There is no bad. no Ugly. Only good.
My System was installed (DIY) January 2016.
My ROI was just last week. (August 20th)

Electric Bill before: ~$285 - $310 per month, give or take.
Electric Bill now : $9.00 per month.
Getting a Check for about $120 once a year from the Power company.

In my House, almost everything is electric:
Heater
AC
Dryer
Lawnmower (80V Battery)
Even got a BMW i3 to be charged.

My experience. YMMV.


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## chandler48

@Deja-vue, interesting. Got pictures?


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## Deja-vue

chandler48 said:


> @Deja-vue, interesting. Got pictures?


I can do better, how about a Drone video?


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## dj3

Panels lose capacity over time. They say 1% per year, so after 20 years they have 80% capacity.
I think that they lose more and lose it faster. I also learned that if one panel goes bad faster, it drags down the entire system (could be true or not so true).
Another drawback or advantage is the rapid changes in the industry, with new and improved panels popping up. If you own 10 year old panels and companies solicit you to buy new and improved more efficient panels, you might be tempted to upgrade - another capital investment.


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## dj3

Chandler talked about drilling holes in a good roof which might lead to future leaks.
They install mini flashing around the connecting bolts, except, the installers may not follow the installation and sealing guidelines properly. Then in 5 years, surprise: leaks.
And lastly, what if you need to replace the roof in 10 yrs - you will have the bear the cost of dismantling and re-installing the panels. Another capital investment pushing the break even day further into the future.


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## Deja-vue

My panels are under a Warranty. At least 80% production after 25 years. I don't care what all the Naysayers saying. It worked out for me. The only thing that I regret is not having it done earlier.
Btw, there is a 14% Energy raise coming this January here in Long Beach.

Matter of fact, we (not me, you) are paying now twice as much for electricity than we did in 2006.
I'm done with that.
Next Investment will be a couple of Whole House Batteries, once the prices come down a bit.

Add on: My Roof was completely replaced a year before the Panels were installed.


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## Old Thomas

Any warranty is only as good as the company backing it. If widespread failures occur, they will bankrupt the company. I am glad I don’t have a Solyndra warranty.
CA has expensive electricity. Solar is an option there. Our electric in NY has a stable price and solar is covered with snow for 4 to 5 months per year.


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## raylo32

Work buddy has an install here in MD. They went with the Solar City guys so no (or minimal?) up front costs. Of course they then don't reap the full benefits but instead pay a much lower electricity rate. They've had the setup for at least 5 years with no issues.

Like some of you other guys I worry about roof penetrations and roof repairs or replacements. In the Solar City model I am not sure how that works and if the costs are shared or simply go to the homeowner. Regardless there are more and more various solar installations around here all the time. I would have done it myself here except I have gas for heat, water heating and cooking so I only have significant electric bills a few months in the summer. So not worth the hassle for me.

One method I like if you have the room is a separate little structure for the panels. But you'd almost have to be rural for that to have space and no association issues.


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## snic

I had solar panels installed in 2013. Here are my experiences:

The good:
-Great electric power production. It did decline over the years, but it was within the 0.5%/year predicted by the installer. That means we were on track to recover all our costs within ~8 years when we sold the house last year.
-More or less maintenance-free (but see below).
-All the yada yada about the bad weather in NY is just that - yada yada. We had PLENTY of sunny days over the years and we met or beat the predicted energy production every year.
-No leaks. Our installer described their engineered anchoring system (I no longer remember the specifics, sorry), and it worked flawlessly for years. Not one leak.
-Possible boost to the sales price of our house. We got 19 offers and it sold for $100k over asking. Was that all because it had solar panels? No, but they probably helped. People like free electricity.

The bad:
-We had a couple of panels go bad. LG was the manufacturer, and although the panels were under warranty, LG took forever to replace them. Our installer's warranty was for only 5 years, but they replaced a panel after that at no charge. So, it pays to use a reputable installer if you don't DIY. Ours was a local contractor that had a good reputation and lots of community involvement.
-Gosh darn squirrels! On more than one occasion, squirrels chewed through the cables, destroying the attached microinverter. I ended up spending $1000 to have the installer put in a "fence" that goes between the panels and the roof. This ended up being complete junk (or perhaps installed incorrectly), as squirrels still got under there and destroyed an inverter. (The company paid for that one as the fence should have worked.) Squirrels were the big problem no one told me about. In fact, in my new house a mile up the road, I'm not going to install solar because I don't want to deal with that problem again. If you have trees or tall bushes within 10 feet of the house, and live in an area with lots of squirrels, you should definitely do your research before taking the solar plunge.


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## User02

My entire home is powered by a grid tied solar system. During the summer, it generates enough power for three homes. 

Our electric bill was about $150 with $200 spikes during hot summers. Now its $7 for the meter charge. 
Pay back for the grid tied portion is about 5-1/2 years and we are on track to meet that with two more years to go.

The system generates so much juice that we're switching over to some partial electric heating this year... (Michigan winters suck)

When the grid goes down, which it does out here in the countryside two to five times a year for up to a week at a time, we switch the grid-tied system into off-grid mode and charge lithium ion batteries. We use a couple of Sunny Island inverters powered by a 25kw lithium bank from a Chevy Bolt EV battery. The grid-tied system is isolated from the grid and goes into off-grid mode through a technique called AC Coupling. The Sunny Island's make such clean power the Grid Inverters think the grid is still active.

Takes me about 2 minutes to activate it by flipping a couple breakers and waiting for the self-check to complete.. then everything works again as if we had grid power. 

If we don't get enough sun, we simply run a generator for a couple hours to charge the batteries. 

We could, if we wanted, go completely off grid, but I'd rather not do that. Grid power is still cheaper than replacing batteries.


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## seharper

Roofs are my absolutely least favorite place for solar panels. Putting holes in your roof, all the fireman corridors and Rapid Disconnect complications, roof penetrations, the aesthetics, difficulty of maintenance (the roof, but the panels too). In my mind a roof has One Job. 

My most favorite is carports. I favor new structures just for the solar panels, and might as well park cars under em or have them somewhere you'd enjoy shade. No firemen, no Rapid Disconnect, control of aesthetics etc. 

I am sad to hear snic is abandoning solar solely because of unprotected cables. It shouldn't be hard to protect cables, but the roof gets in the way again.


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## seharper

SPS-1 said:


> Be aware that if the grid goes down, you don't have power from your solar panels. SMA did have an inverter that allows getting power from your panels when the grid is down, but new rapid-shut-down requirements made that functionality impossible.


That still exists, it's just gotten better.

New systems involve a battery so they can start and run loads bigger than the available solar power, and so they can carry the fridge all night (because you kinda need that). They also have proper switchgear to isolate during power outages. So they're a lot more complicated, but they're better than ever. The Tesla PowerWall being one COTS example. 




> You also have to decide on one big string inverter vs many microinverters.


The microinverters generally sink you when the grid goes down; no way to make those dual-mode. 



> If you got one big string inverter in your basement, it is a commodity and can be replaced by any other string inverter, if it ever fails.


Or a better unit that knows new tricks, like dual-mode grid-tied+off-grid. So definitely, I agree. 



dj3 said:


> I also learned that if one panel goes bad faster, it drags down the entire system (could be true or not so true).


Yeah, I would un-learn that. There's a nugget of truth there, but it's easily solved with some 10-cent diodes.


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## snic

seharper said:


> Roofs are my absolutely least favorite place for solar panels. Putting holes in your roof, all the fireman corridors and Rapid Disconnect complications, roof penetrations, the aesthetics, difficulty of maintenance (the roof, but the panels too). In my mind a roof has One Job.
> 
> My most favorite is carports. I favor new structures just for the solar panels, and might as well park cars under em or have them somewhere you'd enjoy shade. No firemen, no Rapid Disconnect, control of aesthetics etc.
> 
> I am sad to hear snic is abandoning solar solely because of unprotected cables. It shouldn't be hard to protect cables, but the roof gets in the way again.


To be honest there are other factors, not just the squirrels, that led to our decision not to go solar at our new house. It's a larger house, but there are more large trees around it, so we would require more panels to obtain the same amount of energy as before - yet we need more energy as we have a larger space to air condition, electric ovens vs gas, etc. That translates to a greater initial capital outlay, which doesn't make sense given the number of years we plan to stay here.

Roofs are the obvious place for solar panels because that's where the sun-facing space is. A carport might give you space for a few panels, but a roof will almost certainly have room for more. And everyone has a roof, but not everyone needs a carport. As for aesthetics, a friend who lives in a more rural area has a huge solar array on a hillside, which works very well for him - but it is a huge eyesore compared to rooftop solar, which at least somewhat blends in with the roof.

The problem of rodent damage is also not limited to rooftop solar. Squirrels, rats and mice are everywhere. It's certainly a solvable problem, but I'm not aware that a robust, inexpensive solution is available yet (although I haven't been paying much attention lately).


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## SPS-1

seharper said:


> Or a better unit that knows new tricks, like dual-mode grid-tied+off-grid.


Does somebody currently have such systems that one can switch between grid-tied and off-grid ?


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## seharper

SPS-1 said:


> Does somebody currently have such systems that one can switch between grid-tied and off-grid ?


Not in the form-factor of a grid-tie controller, but yeah. 

You can start in the grid-tie paradigm and bolt on off-grid capability; that'd be the Tesla PowerWall, and the PowerWall 2 works downstream of the grid-tie inverter(s) and wakes them up by emulating the grid. 

Or you can start in the off-grid paradigm and bolt on the grid tie; that's just sticking a grid-tie inverter on your charge controller's "dump" terminals. 

A grid-tie inverter that snaps a contactor and powers your house hotshot off solar with no battery involved, that's probably not going to be a thing, it's just too complicated and handles loads too badly.


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## mikecheq

Deja-vue said:


> My panels are under a Warranty. At least 80% production after 25 years. I don't care what all the Naysayers saying. It worked out for me. The only thing that I regret is not having it done earlier.
> Btw, there is a 14% Energy raise coming this January here in Long Beach.
> 
> Matter of fact, we (not me, you) are paying now twice as much for electricity than we did in 2006.
> I'm done with that.
> Next Investment will be a couple of Whole House Batteries, once the prices come down a bit.
> 
> Add on: My Roof was completely replaced a year before the Panels were installed.





dj3 said:


> Panels lose capacity over time. They say 1% per year, so after 20 years they have 80% capacity.
> I think that they lose more and lose it faster. I also learned that if one panel goes bad faster, it drags down the entire system (could be true or not so true).
> Another drawback or advantage is the rapid changes in the industry, with new and improved panels popping up. If you own 10 year old panels and companies solicit you to buy new and improved more efficient panels, you might be tempted to upgrade - another capital investment.


I'm getting my solar panels installed next month. 25 year warranty and they have to produce at least 90% throughout the entire 25 years or else, they will fix or replace it for free. They will also reimburse me for the time it did not perform as expected. It's all in the contract. I can't lose. 

The panels you are referring to are the cheap kind. My panels are setup in a way that if one panel goes bad, the other panels still work. I can refer you to SolarPro, you and I get paid just for a consultation. Win-win if you ask me. Let me know.


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## Old Thomas

The problem with long term warranties is that in a few years if products start failing at a higher rate than predicted, they simply go bankrupt and go out of business. Are you confident that the solar company will exist in 10 years, 15 years or longer? How long before your equipment is obsolete with no parts or service available? At that time time, if they are still in business, the remedy will be to offer you a “deal” on a new updated system. I generally don’t have much confidence in warranties for more than a few years.


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## KurtP

When I had to replace my roof years ago, due to old age and microburst damage, I had them install metal with convenient ribs to attach things to. I opted for white finish which helps to throw extra rays to the 4x10 solar thermal panel. I'm in the process of hooking it up now. Even though there was a low December sun filtered through tree branches, I couldn't touch a copper pipe stud coming out it got so hot. Metal will last 50 years and is recycable. 
FWIW


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## MTN REMODEL LLC

snic said:


> taller if you don't DIY. Ours was a local contractor that had a good reputation and lots of community involvement.
> *-Gosh darn squirrels! On more than one occasion, squirrels chewed through the cables, destroying the attached microinverter. I ended up spending $1000 to have the installer put in a "fence" that goes between the panels and the roof. *This ended up being complete junk (or perhaps installed incorrectly), as squirrels still got under there and destroyed an inverter. (The company paid for that one as the fence should have worked.) Squirrels were the big problem no one told me about. In fact, in my new house a mile up the road, I'm not going to install solar because I don't want to deal with that problem again. If you have trees or tall bushes within 10 feet of the house, and live in an area with lots of squirrels, you should definitely do your research before taking the solar plunge.


SNIC..... Great writeup of pros/cons.

No personal experiece, but my next door neighbor just put in solar on a 6/12 roof. He is bombarded by pigeons/doves...seems like the panels somehow attract them.

He can't handle the roof pitch himself, and is having to pay to have them cleaned probably twice a year.

Not sure how his economics are working out.....but he is not bragging about his investment.


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## snic

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> SNIC..... Great writeup of pros/cons.
> 
> No personal experiece, but my next door neighbor just put in solar on a 6/12 roof. He is bombarded by pigeons/doves...seems like the panels somehow attract them.
> 
> He can't handle the roof pitch himself, and is having to pay to have them cleaned probably twice a year.
> 
> Not sure how his economics are working out.....but he is not bragging about his investment.


Ha, I guess it's like a car: it always seems that the birds want to poop _on_ it, not _next to_ it. If I were your neighbor I would just ignore the problem and let the rain take care of it. Here in NY we can get snow that lasts for days on the ground and on roofs. It tends to slide and/or thaw off the solar panels relatively quickly, but their design is such that even if 10% of the panel is covered, its output is reduced by 90% or more. I'd often have ice on the bottom part of the lower row of panels (because of ice build-up on the roof below the panels where the snow slid off them) for _weeks_ after a good snow storm. It certainly wasn't worth the effort and danger of trying to remove it. As my solar installer said, I'd be risking my life for what amounts to pennies.

Wildlife is I think a big question mark for solar panels. It's one variable that's nearly impossible to predict, unless you talk to a bunch of people in your area who have already installed panels and heard their experiences. The bottom line is that most people don't experience problems with their systems, but that isn't much help for the few who do.


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## seharper

I'm sad that solar hasn't worked out as I envisioned. I expected "solar shingles" to be much more of a thing than they ever were (i.e. the solar IS THE ROOF). Remember how they used to talk about "grid parity" (when the cost of the alternative power fell below the cost of fossil/nuke power). I imagined: 

- Roof Parity: When "solar shingles", net of earnings, becomes cheaper than a normal shingle roof. That is, if a normal shingle roof costs (amortized) $1000/year, and solar shingles cost $3000/year (amortized) _but generate $2100/year of energy_, their net cost is $900/year, and they are actually cheaper than normal shingles on the south side. 

- North Parity: That's solar shingles _even on the north side_ become cheaper than normal shingles. At that point, I expected solar shingles to take over as the predominant roofing material, and regular shingles to be no longer manufactured.

Anyway, that got wrecked because of firemen's need to hack holes in roofs for firefighting.


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## SPS-1

Solar shingles has not taken off because nobody has come up with a good one yet. 
The Tesla roof is expensive just for the solar shingles, and then very labor intensive to install.
Then you got hundreds of electrical connections on your roof, each connection a potential failure point.

The shingles are on a glass substrate. If firemen want to hack them, they will hack them.


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## snic

SPS-1 said:


> Solar shingles has not taken off because nobody has come up with a good one yet.
> The Tesla roof is expensive just for the solar shingles, and then very labor intensive to install.
> Then you got hundreds of electrical connections on your roof, each connection a potential failure point.
> 
> The shingles are on a glass substrate. If firemen want to hack them, they will hack them.


If you think about it, with solar shingles there is just no way to avoid hundreds of electrical connections. In fact there are already dozens to 100+ electrical connections in your house now, and they don't fail all that often. Proper design of the system would ensure that if one fails, it wouldn't be hazardous and wouldn't impact energy production from all the other shingles.

Because I had to replace my roof, I considered the Tesla solar roof, but the price they quoted me was laughably high. Part of the problem is that I have a lot of shade trees, so the payback time was decades. It might make more sense if I had full sun. But even then, most of their installs have been in California and at least up until last year when I was considering it, they had no data from places where it snows. I'm not wealthy enough to pay to be their guinea pig, so I replaced my roof with conventional asphalt shingles at about 1/3 of the cost of a solar roof. So far no leaks, and the contractor who did it lives a couple of towns over so I can drive right over and yell at him if it develops a leak. Try doing that with Elon.


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## mariahardy

Get assessment or advice from professional solar contractors, roofing firms, or structural engineers before installing one. You should learn more about solar panels’ weights. In addition to weight, you should also compute for solar panel dimensions cm. This way, you can determine if your roof is well-suited for a solar panel system installation or not.


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## SPS-1

That's a good point about the weight. 
Not so much of fear that your house is going to collapse, but rather that the City might not give you a permit until you can demonstrate your roof can handle the added weight. Might have to pay for a professional evaluation.
I don't have PV panels (yet), but before I built it, I had the designer specify and extra 5 psf capacity on the south roof slope.


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## huesmann

FWIW, just as a data point, our house came with solar panels when we bought it, installed by the POs—we had to accept taking over the monthly payments.

I recently ran an analysis over the last couple of years, based on the bills from the poco, and out of the last 24 months, only two months show an actual net positive (and one of those months was less than $1 positive) in cost vs. having no solar. It's basically _costing_ us to generate power.


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## seharper

Until it's paid off, then it's yours and all the profit is yours. Also you have the option to add a battery system so your house stays up indefinitely during outages - your neighbor with no solar does not. 

Also the payments won't go up - electric rates may. (or may go down: so you are "playing the energy market", much as millions of Americans were tricked into by Enron and other energy barons who signed people into market pricing deals.) 

But yes, a huge part of the solar business is about playing financial games so _they_ make most of the money that's to be made, then all they need is sheep to sign the papers. It's no accident that your monthly payments are a wash with your bill savings, some of the smartest minds in finance priced the installation so it would be.


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## SPS-1

seharper said:


> But yes, a huge part of the solar business is about playing financial games so _they_ make most of the money that's to be made, then all they need is sheep to sign the papers. It's no accident that your monthly payments are a wash with your bill savings, some of the smartest minds in finance priced the installation so it would be.


One needs to get out one's own calculator and work out the numbers.

One time a car salesman was going to give me 1.9% financing. I could have paid cash, but at that rate I should borrow as much as I can. I went home and worked out the numbers --- the payments he was offering was 5.9% -- same as everybody else at that time.

My buddy used to complain about the cost of natural gas. Wanted to convert his place to electric heat. Finally he figured out that he was paying 2 or 3 times what his neighbors were, ever since he signed up with the guy who knocked on his door and offered him a great deal on natural gas.


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## EmmaPie

Deja-vue said:


> My panels are under a Warranty. At least 80% production after 25 years. I don't care what all the Naysayers saying. It worked out for me. The only thing that I regret is not having it done earlier.
> Btw, there is a 14% Energy raise coming this January here in Long Beach.
> 
> Matter of fact, we (not me, you) are paying now twice as much for electricity than we did in 2006.
> I'm done with that.
> Next Investment will be a couple of Whole House Batteries, once the prices come down a bit.
> 
> Add on: My Roof was completely replaced a year before the Panels were installed.


WOW, I am impressed and you have made me now honestly think on doing this myself, I live in sunny Texas so this should be worth something too. I am gonna look into the requirements, I have always wanted to do it but never truly researched and felt somehow overwhelmed because it sounds difficult, but it is time!
Thanks for the amazing video!


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## Old Thomas

Solar Pro has been in business a little over 10 years. If their products die in large numbers, the company won’t be around for your warranty servicing. I never put very much faith in long term warranties. Too many companies go under or get absorbed by a competitor to bet my investment on their solvency. I prefer not to have solar but I am not against it. If I were younger and had solar I would be concerned about some day when the panels are shot and the government has regulated their non recyclable toxic waste disposal to expensive oblivion. In 20 years it might cost a lot to get rid of them.


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## Mangus

Nowadays we've seen a lot of different installations on the roofs, this is why our eyes started to take them as something normal, so I can say that about the beauty of your house you don't have to worry. Also, if you don't want the ugly to happen, I advise you to go after some specialists for your work, because if you do it all by yourself, you will never know if you did anything correctly and if it will last for a better time. Companies like Off Grid Systems | K2 Fixings | Solar Street Lights - Victron Energy Spares - Car Park Lighting even give you a warranty so you won't have to worry.


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## Deja-vue

EmmaPie said:


> WOW, I am impressed and you have made me now honestly think on doing this myself, I live in sunny Texas so this should be worth something too. I am gonna look into the requirements, I have always wanted to do it but never truly researched and felt somehow overwhelmed because it sounds difficult, but it is time!
> Thanks for the amazing video!


Good for you, Emma. Before you start, make sure you have a 200A Service panel. Then, find some good Deals on Solar panels on Craigslist. I bought mine there, all new in the Box for a 45% discount. Calculate your Needs, I estimated getting an EV at some point, and now have one. [BMW i3] and I'll get another within a year or so.
Most of my Appliances (Dryer, AC, Heater and starting next week my 36 inch Stove) are electric. Even my Lawn mower runs on a 80V Battery.
Here in CA we got a 30% Federal Discount for the Cost, that is now down to 22% or so, not sure.
If you have more Time than money[like me] start your Research today.
Oh, and find a couple of good Roofers and an Electrician. Once you have all the parts, have a designer do all your Plans and Drawings for the Permits.
Apply for the NEM at your Electric Company, that takes some time as well.
Good Luck!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC

Just some random thoughts for your consideration.

1) My son in SoCal was required to install solar on an ADU unit he built (Additional dwelling unit). He is not an electrician but not a novice and he did it fine and under permit. First time he had any experience with it, and I have NO experience with solor He had no problem doing it (apart from the cost).* So yes, with normal building competence you can DIY.*

2) At somewhat a greater material cost, he installed microinverter panels verse series wired regular panels. Besides some other advantages of micro's (which you need to study about) he did not have to wire in a central inverter and a quick shutdown system. So basically, the wiring was much simplified.

3) .Please note in my son's instance, *this says nothing in regard to the economic feasability of such*. He was required to as a Cali ADU building requirement. (Considering how small the ADU unit is, and he was required to put in NG heat and water...I highly doubt it was economically justified.) I just point out, it is not rocket science to install.

A) Different instance, I am currently in Southern Nevada with great sun exposure and in an area without any NG, so everything is electrical...however our electrical is a tiered 9-10-11 cent KH reasonable cost structure. Yes, A/C is a heavy hit in the summer.

B) My neighbor basically has great exposure with a material southwest roof exposure, a 5/12 slope ideal for our latitude and the panels lay flat. He put in a series system. Our POCO does not have any net metering, so it's a use it or lose it as to his electrical solor generation. He contracted it all (fully bought system) so his costs less fed gov subsidy was approx 19K. 

C) Now he faces having to get a pro window cleaner up there every so often, as it seems the doves and pigeon like birds have taken a fancy to his roof. He likely will have a central inverrter replacement in 10-12 years. And, he has not mentioned any significant savings, which would be strange for him...so much so that I have not asked as a matter of politeness.

D) Interestingly for living in a gasless all-electric area with great sun exposure, we do not have much solor installed. My thought at present is that it just is not economic, at least at our electrical prices today.

I don't know the actual answers here as to whether it is economocally feasable for you to install a system, and I have no idea what my son saved by his DIY system verse a subbed out job,,,,, but I choose to replace to my two 25 year old Trane heat pumps (probably 10-13 Seer with 20 Seer Bosches. I paid up about 4.K for 20 Seer over 14 seer york units, and cut my summer cooling a little better than 50% or about 150/month.

Just info on my limited experience for your consideration.....I'm not so confident on solor power as a feasable investment right now.


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## Imogeno

The solar panel is a very important thing for our green world. But there is some good and ugly side.
The ugly side of solar energy: High upfront costing , Intermittent energy source, Manufacturing panels has some impact on the environment, Not the best if you're planning to move.
The good side of solar energy: Reduces electric bills, Insurance against rising power prices , Solar is cheaper than ever,
Environmentally friendly, energy independence.
I think all over it's very nice to use eco-friendly solar panels.


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## BigBlonde

We are considering solar panels with a battery system and one or two EV hookups. We’ll add an EV connection when we buy an EV in a few years. We live in northwestern Washington State. We expect to be using more electrical power as we move to EVs. Electricity cost is relatively low here, but we expect to see higher electricity costs in future years as demand increases. We have a metal roof. Our home is all electric except for a propane fireplace.

We are having conversations with a local, family-owned electrical company. We paid the company $300 to have a specialist come to our home and measure the roof, calculate angels, sun exposure and such factors. The report was favorable.

Initially, the company provided an estimate of $32K for installation of solar panels with microinverters with the necessary connections. This would have a 15-year estimated payoff period, which, for a retired couple is quite long. The panels are manufactured nearby.

We subsequently asked for a second proposal with fewer panels to lower the cost and to avoid placing panels on the second-story roof, which we decided would be difficult to install and costly to service. The lower roof is large and covers a garage and storage room. We are also planning to add a connected carport, which would provide an opportunity to add solar panels later. The second estimate would include a battery system. They'll be working on the second estimate next week.

We want the battery system because we have many power outages here. So that makes sense, plus it could provide power when the sun isn't shining. 

We continue to be concerned about the cost of the panels, however. We like the idea and want to do our part to reduce carbonization, but we may not live long enough to see the payoff. We're also thinking adding solar panels to the roof of the carport might have the advantage of being new construction. Would it be better to put panels on new construction? 

Would it be better to wait for the cost of solar panels to decrease, even though we're not getting any younger?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC

Sorry to be skeptical BB....but I would be carefull relying on those estimates.

*"The report was favorable.

Initially, the company provided an estimate of $32K for installation of solar panels with microinverters with the necessary connections. This would have a 15-year estimated payoff period, which, for a retired couple is quite long. The panels are manufactured nearby. "*

I've really never heard of a Solar estimate that was *not* favorable....

And do remember, depending on your age and intent to live there, Solor installations as to resale value, arer anybodys guess....as better technologies and costs to maintain with new batteries etc are completely just a F'n guess.

(Solar estimates are much like...even worse...than leasing or financing a car thru a dealer...most people do not understand the underllying assumption or discount rates that are used....and that is the dealers advantage in a consumer's ignorence.)
.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC

Shoot....Solindra took O'Bama and our government for 500K....1/2 a billion....but of course no one is actually as dumb as our government.


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## BigBlonde

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Sorry to be skeptical BB....but I would be careful relying on those estimates.


Well... We haven't signed any paper yet. There is some pressure sales, but we'll be okay.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I've really never heard of a Solar estimate that was *not* favorable....


I suppose you're right, but this wasn't an estimate. This was to look at the location of the house, the slope of the roof and such things. We are pretty sure we have good solar potential and this confirmed it.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> And do remember, depending on your age and intent to live there, Solor installations as to resale value, arer anybodys guess....as better technologies and costs to maintain with new batteries etc are completely just a F'n guess.
> 
> (Solar estimates are much like...even worse...than leasing or financing a car thru a dealer...most people do not understand the underllying assumption or discount rates that are used....and that is the dealers advantage in a consumer's ignorence.)
> .


We aren't worried about resale value. We're going to live here till we die, which probably within twenty years. Our goal is to live well from now till then. We think it's a safe bet that utility electricity will cost more in the future. I guess we're just trying to figure out how much to install now and how much to install later. The costs are dropping and the technology is improving. So we're thinking of doing some now and some later.


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## Arelia

hi
We have installed about 7 Kw in our little factory and it does reduce the electricity bill;
in you case, apparently you want to install it at home; In my opinion, the optimum if you install photovoltaic on your roof, is also changing your combustion engine car by an electric one; therefore, you are probably going to get a better return, although it is also treu electric cards are expensive
is the gallon of gas already at 5$?
hope this helps


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## argumentsolid

My wife dealt with this issue. I am constantly busy at work, and she has the opportunity and time to do it. I can tell you what I noticed after installing the solar panels. The first one, of course, is the electric bill. It's such a relief not to get those three zeros anymore. Second, I can now brag to my colleagues that I have done more for the preservation of our planet than our company. Third, my wife is now a company ambassador EnergyAustralia | Award-Winning Electricity & Gas Provider. Discounts Available.. Just kidding haha But I wouldn't mind her getting paid for it. After all, she always tells her friends and me about them. I'm not jealous, but I think she's more interested in these guys than me. But I'm glad she's found a topic to discuss with my friends' girlfriends. I can give her Facebook. You can ask her for all the details.


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## turbo4

snic said:


> . If you have trees or tall bushes within 10 feet of the house, and live in an area with lots of squirrels, you should definitely do your research before taking the solar plunge.


I deal with them in a different way. I use bait. I dont have solar panels but they like to get in under roofs and destroy insulation. No squirrels anywhere iv used bait.


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## MIShopDude

My whole house runs on a large solar system I installed myself. Not only do we run on a grid tied solar (pump energy into grid), but we can take it completely off-grid with the flip of a couple switches. 

Our power bill was, on average, about $150 a month, now its just a $7 meter charge. In fact, the solar worked out so well, and the calculations for power production were so accurate, that we started changing things over to electric and added onto the solar. 

We now heat our Michigan house with about 80% electricity in the winter. Instead of burning 10 to 15 face cords per winter, we now use only 2 or 3 during the late december-january deep freeze.

I installed the system in 2017 and it paid for itself last month. 

Solar components are pretty cheap. You can replace an inverter for about $1500, or replace panels for about 45 cents per watt. You can even run different kinds of panels so long as they use their own MPPT input on the inverter.


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## Deja-vue

Just purchased my second EV, and the Solar Panels charge them both:


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## turbo4

Solar panels and great but they need to be made here in this country, or at least in north america.Its not Rocket Science. Ill be looking for some soon and i dont want any Made in china or any other communist country.


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## MIShopDude

turbo4 said:


> Solar panels and great but they need to be made here in this country, or at least in north america.Its not Rocket Science. Ill be looking for some soon and i dont want any Made in china or any other communist country.


China is the heavyweight leader but there are plenty of panels made in South Korea and the USA. 

I believe REC makes them in Texas(?) Some are also made in Canada.

Mine were made in Germany and South Korea. 

A German panel made in China is not the same as a Chinese panel made in China.


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## MIShopDude

OOPS! My mistake. MISSION SOLAR is made in Texas. Thought it was REC but it's actually MISSION SOLAR.


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## turbo4

MIShopDude said:


> China is the heavyweight leader but there are plenty of panels made in South Korea and the USA.


I dont see japan on that list either and theres a country that has fallen as far as the US in Mfg its own products. And would benefit greatly from solar energy with very few of its own natural resources.


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## pumpkinscastle

I have Mission solar panels. Reasonably priced and work well. Keep in mind that the silicon wafers for virtually all makers come from China, unfortunately. It is becoming a national security risk. We need domestic wafer production, too.


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## papereater

dj3 said:


> Has anyone installed roof solar panels at home?
> Can you share the good, bad and ugly?


POOL solar water heater panels destroyed my roof- rotten rafters, hard to see/notice as the slow seepage from the o rings is elusive to detect. never again.


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## MaliyahCook

I can't disagree with you, as long as I can remember, solar panels have been relevant and in great demand. In my opinion, this is a very profitable investment, since you give up central electricity and invest in your own.


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## MaliyahCook

I've wanted to install panels in my home for a long time, and now I'm choosing them. Several of my friends advised me to buy https://www.luminsmart.com/blog/are-solar-panels-worth-it-in-texas-2265 and very much praised their products. From all that I watched, they were the most powerful and large, so I think to order them.


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## pumpkinscastle

Looks like “MaliyahCook” is a spammer.


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## Racinmason

dj3 said:


> Has anyone installed roof solar panels at home?
> Can you share the good, bad and ugly?


I’ll add some ugly…


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## Racinmason

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Shoot....Solindra took O'Bama and our government for 500K....1/2 a billion....but of course no one is actually as dumb as our government.


Check your math....500K is half of a million, not half a billion.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC

Racinmason said:


> Check your math....500K is half of a million, not half a billion.


OOPS,,,,,,,500KK


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## Elmer-Dallas Texas

I would never install anything on my roof. Potential damage to roofing is expensive. And there is fire hazard imo. Google Walmart Tesla. The panels need to be washed often for maximum efficiency. And they have to be maintained. 
The only way I would entertain the idea of solar panels would be building a structure a few feet off the ground for mounting the panels. Just my thoughts.


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