# Roof Sagging wall bowing



## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Was the previous owner responsible for replacing the roof or repairing the rafters?


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

redline said:


> Was the previous owner responsible for replacing the roof or repairing the rafters?



I got some credit towards repairs at the closing.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

christy123 said:


> The roof has 3-4 layers of asphalt shingles and is in good condition.


Do you know how old the (top layer) roof is? (5,10,15 ...years)




(If you could supply a photo of the outside of the roof and the attic area where the rafters sag then it would help.)


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Cant tell how old the roof is ....the previous owner didnt remember (she has dementia)....

Everyone who looked at the roof said that it was in excellent condition. i will take some pictures tomorrow and post them


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

I was planning to strip down the shingles and replace it one layer ..since so many layers may contribute/complicate the problem...but since everyone says that it is in good condition...I have decided not to replace the shingles at this time...


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

christy123 said:


> I was planning to strip down the shingles and replace it one layer ..since so many layers may contribute/complicate the problem...but since everyone says that it is in good condition...I have decided not to replace the shingles at this time...


Christy,

Once they jack up the ridge and straighten the wall out, your shingles will pop and have to be replaced. I did this exact job 10 years ago and every shingles moved with the ridge being jack up and wall moving back in.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

I followed this thread from day one, and was crossing my fingers that you would walk away, unless it was such a steal, you couldn't pass...3 or 4 layers of asphalt shingles? Did your inspector/engineer tell you how much weight you have on that roof? Many areas, and I believe it is in the IRC 2003 that 2 layers is the maximum allowable.....most ignore this, but as joe pointed out, you will replace the roof, whether you know it or not. Have it stipped and blacked in, then level the roof lines and brace...you may be surprised how much the roof line will change when all that weight comes off.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

christy123 said:


> (she has dementia)....that is unfortunate.
> 
> Everyone who looked at the roof said that it was in excellent condition. i will take some pictures tomorrow and post them


If you are able to take photos of the roof and the attic then that would give a better understanding of what is needed.


:thumbup:


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

I posted this post in construction forum when i meant to post it here . Reposting here for the sake of continuity.


Ok...today I met someone who made some sense ...looked like he knew what he was talking about ...he said he was a master capenter and had built several new houses in the neighborhood where I live. Offered references.

He measured with a string and told me that top plate had moved out about 6 inches in the middle. Wall underneath has moved about 2 inches.

He said the ridge of the roof was too small . he said one of the solutions would be to replace the ridge with a structural ridge. He claimed that we wouldnt need the collar ties after that. he will work by hour and even offered to strip and replace the shingles at the hourly rate.

I took some pictures of the attic today. Will post the link in a short while
-------------------------------------------------------------- http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/christina_macarthy/album?.dir=d13bre2

The roof has two dimensions....half has span of 18' x 2 with collar ties somewhere in the middle of rafters. other half has a span of 14'x2 wit collar ties high up on the rafters.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

christy123 said:


> he said he was a master capenter and had built several new houses in the neighborhood where I live. Offered references.


Christy,

What's a Master Carpenter?


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Joe Carola said:


> Christy,
> 
> What's a Master Carpenter?


I have no clue! I dont know if it is a self assumed title or an earned one....but I was impressed!


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## jbob (Nov 24, 2006)

Hi Christy,

I had a similar problem on the house I'm re-habbing now.
M-bedroom outer wall bowed out 5 inches. Span 20 feet.
Similar baloon framing.

I decided to install 2x6 collar ties at midpoint of the rafters,
attached with three 1/2 inch carriage bolts on each end.

As I jacked up the ridge, I used a come-along to pull the wall
back into plumb and line. Then installed the collar-ties and cut
out the old ceiling chords. My local building dept said the
engineering was acceptable. The result is a beautiful semi-
vaulted 10 foot ceiling. Makes the room look and feel twice as big

You may consider this option of you don't need the upstairs 
storage.

Pic:










---------------

A structural ridge would probably solve your problem.
I would recommend a glu-lam beam. The dealer who
sells the beams should be able to engineer the size you
need correctly. This is a major construction project, and
depending on where you live you may want to wait until spring.
Your roof ridge will be open to the elements for a couple of days.
After plumbing up the walls, You will definately need a new
roof almost immediately. As stated earlier, you will have
stress cracks and nail pops everywhere. The roof will no
longer be water-tight.

-----------

Master carpenter is a term I've heard in the Northeast.
When I was in the carpenters union, someone told me
that a master was a man with at least 15 years cumulative
experience in several carpentry disciplines. 

Don't know if it's true...but it sounded reasonable to me

Anyway, Best of Luck with your project.

Bob


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for your ideas. I will pass this on to whoever I decide to go with...

Can I ask you how you managed to pu that pic in the post....


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Did you have sag in the roof and the rafters. Did you replace rafters as well?



jbob said:


> Hi Christy,
> 
> I had a similar problem on the house I'm re-habbing now.
> M-bedroom outer wall bowed out 5 inches. Span 20 feet.
> ...


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## jbob (Nov 24, 2006)

No Sag, fortunately the rafters were straight.
A sag isn't that hard to fix, though.
Just sister nice straight yellow pine rafters to your
original rafters. A few hundred dollars and a days work.

--------

This forum seems to use BBcode.
Just insert your image URL between image tags, like this

[img ]http://www.yourhost.com/yourimage.jpg[/img ]

To get the code to show I added a space between
the "g" and the "]" in each of the tags.

To show the actual image, you will have to remove the space.

bob


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

jbob said:


> No Sag, fortunately the rafters were straight.
> A sag isn't that hard to fix, though.
> Just sister nice straight yellow pine rafters to your
> original rafters. A few hundred dollars and a days work.
> ...



How long do you think this will take. The carpenter I talked to said that he will work by hour. I think I will strip the roof , put new shingles as well besides fixing this mess.


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Ok..here are the images


The first picture shows two sections of the roof...the farther one has span of 18 and collar ties are not too high... the other section has span of 14 and collar ties are way high up









close up of collar ties in smaller half of the roof









close up of collar ties in the section of roof with span of 18'..they used nails










top plate movement (about 6") in the middle of one side of the house










this one shows section of the roof with span f 14'










this pic shows the section of roof with span of 18'


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

I was hoping after posting pics I might get some more specific insights from all you experts. I understand it is X-mas time...everyone is busy.

Anyway, I got a proposal from the "master carpenter" today....this is what he suggested . he said he talked to a structural engineer .."------------ It is pretty much the same as we discussed with the structural LVL ridge beam and new 2x10 rafters sistered to the side of the existing rafters with lag screws and mechanical fasterners at the ridge. We will support the new ridge beams with headers built into the gable ends and a knee wall located above the existing interior bearing wall. This will allow us to remove those existing collar ties that take up so much of the head room and it will give you a much stronger roof. We should be able to get the roof and the west wall completely straight with the new material. We can even make stress relief cuts into the existing rafters, if needed to straighten, because the new rafters will become the supporting members. I will use a chain and large eye bolts to draw the west wall into place. It should all go very smoothly. "

After listening to all you gentleman, I realized that it may be better to get rid of those several layers of shingles right now and put a new roof up.

He wants to work on hourly basis but take 20% comission on materials and off subcontractors. Do you think I should go with him...Here is what he suggested for labor costs:

 Pricing e for labor:
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Master carpenter $55.00 per hr.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Skilled carpenter /painter $43.00 per hr.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Semi-skilled carpenter/ painter $23.00 per hr.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]General helper $21.00 per hr.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]


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## Bonus (Aug 25, 2005)

Seems to me if he is a master carpenter he should be able to give you a price for the job.


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Bonus said:


> Seems to me if he is a master carpenter he should be able to give you a price for the job.



One would hope so...


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## jbob (Nov 24, 2006)

When I take jobs on a time-materials basis, I try to give
the contractor/homeowner a rough idea of how long it will
take. After looking at the pictures, I would guess that myself,
two experienced carpenters, and a helper could do what
you want in about 8 working days. This is just a guess, not
having personally seen the job.

I would also add the cost of a half-day crane rental, depending
on the size, length, weight of the LVLs.

I think the hourly rates are very fair, and a 20% markup is
barely enough to run the money through his books.

Overall, the guy sounds OK if you have checked his references
and are comfortable with hiring him. I would ask for a rough
estimate on the timeframe, though.

As long as he and his men stay busy and don't milk the job,
you should be OK. Also, once the wall is pulled back to plumb,
have it checked for nail pops and loose siding.

Bob

There are advantages and disadvantages to a set price for the whole job.
The advantage is that you have a set price, no surprises.
The disadvantage is usually price. I bid a set price on 95% of my work.
I try to take into account every concievable problem I could run into,
and add that to the bid. Then I add 25% for safe margin.
If the job goes smoothly, I win...
If there are problems I didn't foresee, I still win, but don't make
as much as I should have


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

He seemed to be honest and knowledgeable and basically the only one I met so far who basically knew what he was talking about. He gave me a rough estimate of 10 days. He will be sending me the references.

At this time, the weather seems to be the hurdle though. We are going to have 2-3 days of good weather and then mostly rainy for a week or so. He said as long as he can waterproof the roof in next couple of days, I need not worry about bad weather.



jbob said:


> When I take jobs on a time-materials basis, I try to give
> the contractor/homeowner a rough idea of how long it will
> take. After looking at the pictures, I would guess that myself,
> two experienced carpenters, and a helper could do what
> ...


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Ok...signed te contract....paid the deposit...Will keep you posted...In the meantime please keep the ideas flowing...

I appreciate your help.


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## Mike2004 (Dec 12, 2006)

*Question about removing collar ties*

I am new to this board and would like some advice about possibly removing collar ties in my attic. I added a second floor to an existing ranch house. The span along the middle of the house is 24 feet wide by 40 feet in length. My carpenter installed collar ties at every other rafter about 4 feet up from my attic floor. I would like to know if I can remove them, or possibly just cut them shorter and move them up closer to the ridge. I have no idea if this is possible, but I would appreciate if sombody could help me out. 

The span is 24' wide
The length is 40' wide
The rafters are 13' long
The rafters are 2" x 8"
The ridge is 2" x 12"
The rafters are 16" apart 
Collar ties are 4' down from ridge
Collar ties are 9' 7" long
Collar ties are 2" x 6"
The distance from floor to ridge is 6' 5"
The rafters run the same way as the floor joists
It is a perfect triangle design


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Ok..Shingles came off...roof mostly 3 layers but some portions had 4 layers.

Roofer waterproofed the roof....and we had rain today(good that he waterproofed before the showers!)...plans to put the shingles over the weekend.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

christy123 said:


> Ok..Shingles came off...roof mostly 3 layers but some portions had 4 layers.
> 
> Roofer waterproofed the roof....and we had rain today(good that he waterproofed before the showers!)...plans to put the shingles over the weekend.


How is he putting the shingles on this weekend if the roof isn't fixed yet?


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Joe Carola said:


> How is he putting the shingles on this weekend if the roof isn't fixed yet?



My mistake... He plans to fix the framing this weekend and then put the shinges sometime next week.

I asked him if he was going to use roofing cement with shingles since it is winter now. He said he wont do that because temp is 40-50...and therefore no need.

I learned that shingles have heat activated undersurface which holds the shingles together.... does anyone know what is the minimum temp needed to activate this undersurface and how long would that temp need to be maintained....


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## jbob (Nov 24, 2006)

Hi Christy,

All you really need is a good sunny day and temperatures above
freezing. The heat from the sun will be enough to seal down
the tabs. It's surprising how hot a roof can get even on a
seemingly cold day. The sun does the trick


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

jbob said:


> Hi Christy,
> 
> All you really need is a good sunny day and temperatures above
> freezing. The heat from the sun will be enough to seal down
> ...


Thanks...that takes care of my worries....I didnt know how long the shingles needed to be exposed to heat(sun) before they seal.


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

update: the guy pulled in the wall sucessfully...removed all the collar ties...all of a sudden attic looks like a room..

There is one thing though that I noticed...he was not able to bring the rafters in the affected area back. The birds mouths in the affected rafters fall outside the top plate....he said he couldnt pull them back....

Is this going to cause any issues in future?


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Also, I asked him to place ridge and soffit vents. Do I need to remove the current gable vents rightaway or should I wait till Spring when I work on the exterior?

Do you guys have any recommendations of vents?

thanks


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

christy123 said:


> update: the guy pulled in the wall sucessfully...removed all the collar ties...all of a sudden attic looks like a room..
> 
> There is one thing though that I noticed...he was not able to bring the rafters in the affected area back. The birds mouths in the affected rafters fall outside the top plate....he said he couldnt pull them back....
> 
> Is this going to cause any issues in future?


Why couldn't he jack the ridge up level and pull the rafters in?

I think you said that the wall was almost 1-1/2" - 2" bowed out. If so, he must have cut the nails out of the rafters where they were nailed to the top plate and all he did was just pull the wall in.

Anyone could've done that. Now your rafters are off the top plate and your roof and ridge is still sagging and your facsia line still has a bow in it.


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

Joe Carola said:


> Why couldn't he jack the ridge up level and pull the rafters in?
> 
> I think you said that the wall was almost 1-1/2" - 2" bowed out. If so, he must have cut the nails out of the rafters where they were nailed to the top plate and all he did was just pull the wall in.
> 
> Anyone could've done that. Now your rafters are off the top plate and your roof and ridge is still sagging and your facsia line still has a bow in it.


yes the wall was about 2 inches out in the middle but the top plate was pushed out about 5 inches....i think there is about 1 1/2" gap between the top plate and the underlying joists in the middle... the sag in the roof has significantly dimished....

I believe the bow in the soffit should be corrected when he is done....

he placed a new structural ridge ( previously there was 1 1/4" board) and supported with two sturdy boards...sistered all rafters with 2x10s that run about 90% of the length.....

I will get some pictures tomorrow uploaded here.


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## christy123 (Oct 13, 2006)

it looks like bow in te soffit will be corrected ...wall is completely back in...the rafters in the middle have been pulled in but are not completely in place.... I think he pulled the walls in without jacking the roof up... and then whatever improvement I see in the rafters is because of the new structural ridge he placed and the 2x10 rafters he sistered in ...and not because he jacked the roof up....


Should I be conderned?...should I ask him to jack the roof up?


thanks for all your help


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Is the ridge line (peak of the roof) level from one end to the other?

Any photo of the roof?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

christy123 said:


> Thanks...that takes care of my worries....I didnt know how long the shingles needed to be exposed to heat(sun) before they seal.


The tar strip heats up and adheres the overlapping shingle to the bottom one. This is not really a sealing process to keep the water from leaking thru the roof but more to keep the tabs of the shingles from being blown up from high winds. It "locks" the shingles together. 

How did the roof come out?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

christy123 said:


> ... I will use a chain and large eye bolts to draw the west wall into place. It should all go very smoothly. "...
> ] [/FONT]




It appears that he did not have to jack the roof up but rather pulled the wall back in with a chain.

With the weight of the 3 or 4 layers of older roofing material removed then that allowed the wall to be pulled back into place with a chain.


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