# skylight and roof replacement and i and w shield



## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

as long as the roofer guaranties his work you should be fine

velux has an installation method they want used tell each roofer that's how YOU want them installed


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Recently, Velux changed it's mounting system on deck mount units and they now have a roll of peel & stick membrane included that must be used. So, if the 1st guy is using the roll included, but not other I&WS he'd be correct on the new models. If he were installing the old models (which there are still a lot of on the shelves) without providing some I&WS, he'd be wrong.

One of the reasons for using the I&WS is condensation on the inside of the metal flashing. I&WS sheds that when it occurs.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Seeyou is correct. The new units come with the I&W type membrane to put around the skylight. Overkill??? IMO, yes, most of the time, but why not, right?

I've never seen a Vellux that mounts like the picture shows though. Might be new. I haven't seen a new one of the skylights, just new flashing kits and they came with the I&W strip in rolls.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

MJW said:


> Seeyou is correct. The new units come with the I&W type membrane to put around the skylight. Overkill??? IMO, yes, most of the time, but why not, right?
> 
> *I've never seen a Vellux that mounts like the picture shows though. Might be new. I haven't seen a new one of the skylights, *just new flashing kits and they came with the I&W strip in rolls.


That's the new mounting flange. I took that pic from the Velux site. We've installed several of them. I like.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

this is the curb mounted. The first guy insists he is old school. Is the high tech membrane instead of the tar paper worth it? The old guy who sold over said he used to put no tar paper and the roofs would last forever. I am so confused. R the new high tech ice and water shields over the whole roof so much better than the standard 15lb. tar paper. Must make decision soon?
Thanks
George


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

geoss said:


> *this is the curb mounted.* The first guy insists he is old school. *Is the high tech membrane instead of the tar paper worth it*? The old guy who sold over said he used to put no tar paper and the roofs would last forever. I am so confused. *R the new high tech ice and water shields over the whole roof so much better than the standard 15lb. tar pape*r. Must make decision soon?
> Thanks
> George


Curb Mounted: I&WS is not necessary for warranty then. Velux suggests it. They probably know more than the 1st guy. Sounds like he learned everything he's gonna learn a long time ago. 

New underlayments: IMHO, yes they are, but they are not ice and water shields.


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## racebum (Mar 8, 2010)

i actually pulled one of these out when i did my roof. skylight was around 15yrs old and framed with 2x4s. what i noticed

none of the sheathing had any moisture damage since it was flashed properly, no iw shield

the 2x4 framing had moisture damage and was damp in places due to not being sealed around the skylight. they also did not use PT wood which i replaced it all with

so, if you buy new follow the directions as stated.

if it's used, iw wouldn't hurt at all but in my application it was not needed


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

Thanks,
waiting for 2nd. contractor's lowest price. He is the one that instals ice/water barrier whole roof and no tar paper, and uses the ice /wateer barrier around the skylight.
I heard the new membranes keep the roof cooler-that seems to be an advantage. More confused by the minute....................
George


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

seeyou said:


> Recently, Velux changed it's mounting system on deck mount units and they now have a roll of peel & stick membrane included that must be used. So, if the 1st guy is using the roll included, but not other I&WS he'd be correct on the new models. If he were installing the old models (which there are still a lot of on the shelves) without providing some I&WS, he'd be wrong.
> 
> One of the reasons for using the I&WS is condensation on the inside of the metal flashing. I&WS sheds that when it occurs.


Is #1 a full perimeter flange?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

kwikfishron said:


> Is #1 a full perimeter flange?


Yes Sir


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

1st, guy is 1 ply ice shield perimeter of roof, and 1 ply #15 felt the rest of the roof.
2nd. guy is steep slope ice and water barrier underlayment over complete roof deck, and low slope ice and water shield at all eaves and around skylight.
Both use nails
thanks
George
p.s. my Development requires the Certainteed Landmark shingle


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

geoss said:


> 1st, guy is 1 ply ice shield perimeter of roof, and 1 ply #15 felt the rest of the roof.
> 2nd. guy is steep slope ice and water barrier underlayment over complete roof deck, and low slope ice and water shield at all eaves and around skylight.
> Both use nails
> thanks
> ...



I have used both installation methods, both work.

Roofer 1 is stuck in the "can't teach an old dog new tricks mode".
Roofer 2 is new school and selling what he/she was taught to sell.

The newer underlayments are not yet time tested, that doe's not mean they don't work, just means that the advantages they claim to add to the roofing system may or may not be factual.

Choose the roofer you feel most confident with, if it happens to be the old dog, tell him/her you want the ice guard around the sky lights as extra protection 'period'.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

Thanks....2nd. guy is supposed to email his best price tomorrow or so.
There is a $370 difference as of right now, is the new tech whole roof ice and water barrier worth it??? Also #1 gives 10yr. labor warranty, #2 gives 5 years. #2 also supplies one sheet of 4X8, if needed. Please help. Thanks
George
they are both reviewed in checkbook.org, but I can't get into it.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

geoss said:


> Thanks....2nd. guy is supposed to email his best price tomorrow or so.
> There is a $370 difference as of right now, is the new tech whole roof ice and water barrier worth it??? Also #1 gives 10yr. labor warranty, #2 gives 5 years. #2 also supplies one sheet of 4X8, if needed. Please help. Thanks
> George
> they are both reviewed in checkbook.org, but I can't get into it.



I live in Ohio 'Mahoning County' and with the average snow falls/ice build up we deal with here the additional cost of the newer underlayments are hard to justify.
In an area that receives extreme winter conditions, the cost is easily justified.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

#2 roofer just lowered the price $70. I just don't know what to do. He says the barrier helps prevent condensation and he is definitely flashing the skylight with ice and water shield, I think #1 will give me a hard time if I insist on ice and water shield around skylight.
George
now the diff. is $300 for the new high tech underlayment, plus one sheet of 4x8


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

I put I&W shield around my friends skylight and I am going to put it around my own skylight when I install it. Sure paper will work, but I&W is better. Skylights can be very susceptible to leaks because of all the joins and gaps going on. The better the protection you put on underneath, the less chance of any leaks if there is a shingle/flashing failure.

Roofer #1 seems to be worried about how much time it's going to take to install the I&W shield. Technique is basically the same as using felt paper, except I&W is sticky on the bottom and can be a pain in the rump to deal with, especially on hot days.

Roofer #2 seems to be concerned about protecting your home.

Good luck in your choice.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

geoss said:


> #2 roofer just lowered the price $70. I just don't know what to do. *He says the barrier helps prevent condensation* and he is definitely flashing the skylight with ice and water shield, I think #1 will give me a hard time if I insist on ice and water shield around skylight.
> George
> now the diff. is $300 for the new high tech underlayment, plus one sheet of 4x8



He is correct.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

#2 just lowered price $70 because permit is free. He uses the Roof Aqua Guard UDLX. When I mentioned to #1 that I demanded an iw shield around the skylight, he said I never heard of that-stay off the internet..........#1 said he uses standard #15 tar paper, and would charge $50 for iw shield around skylight(who knows if they ever did it???). #1 is your basic tar paper #15 shingle type of guy. Now there is a price diff. of $245, if I need the 4x8 plywood. I think it is worth going with the newer method of roofing????
Thanks.
George


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

geoss said:


> #2 just lowered price $70 because permit is free. He uses the Roof Aqua Guard UDLX. *When I mentioned to #1 that I demanded an iw shield around the skylight, he said I never heard of that-stay off the internet........*..#1 said he uses standard #15 tar paper, and would charge $50 for iw shield around skylight(who knows if they ever did it???). #1 is your basic tar paper #15 shingle type of guy. Now there is a price diff. of $245, if I need the 4x8 plywood. I think it is worth going with the newer method of roofing????
> Thanks.
> George


He needs to read the box that the skylight comes in or the instructions that fall out when you open the box.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

so, even though #1 was in business a long time-he sold to 2 guys but works in the office to keep busy, I am better off to go with #2 who said right off the bat, an ice and water shield around the skylight and iw barrier underlayment on rest of roof for a $245 diff.-I think it is worth it. Plus, in the price #2 includes a sheet of 4x8(which i might need)........thanks
George
p.s. this has been as stressful as buying my first house-because it also involves an adjoining neighbor who is letting me make the decisions-love those townhouses with attached extension rooms............


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

geoss said:


> I think it is worth going with the newer method of roofing????
> Thanks.
> George


Why?

What is so new and so much better? 15# felt has been used for many many years. As long as the work is done correctly, there are very few, if any problems.
I&W around all penetrations is a newby thing, but yes it does work, for awhile. Usually if the roofing isn't done correctly, I&W just gives a little more time before it leaks.

I can see both sides of it and understand your dillemma. IMO, you need to choose the Contractor that you trust to do the work correctly. Materials and price should be concidered after you've made that choice.

A difference of a few hundred dollars on a roof should not be a big concern.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

I know 100-200 dollars should not be the determining factor,, but #1 kinda blowing off the iw shield around the skylight, and saying he's never heard of that. I'm sure he knows his business but times do progress....#2 seem to have a more modern approach to the "game"...He os also including the 4x8 sheet, if needed. I do know that #2 does alot of the huge houses around the Main Line, for what it's worth. Also in his writeup #2 wrote the exact model of skylight, #1 simply said replace skylight.....I am just rambling on indecisively. Thanks
George


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

MJW said:


> Why?
> 
> What is so new and so much better? 15# felt has been used for many many years. As long as the work is done correctly, there are very few, if any problems.
> *I&W around all penetrations is a newby thing, but yes it does work, for awhile. Usually if the roofing isn't done correctly, I&W just gives a little more time before it leaks.*
> ...


Doesn't matter if I&WS is a newby thing or not (I totally agree that it's over used and I never depend on it after the roof is finished - I do use the hell out of it when re-roofing for temporary protection) because Velux requires it. See the pic below from the ECM installation manual. They ship it with their flashing kits. The 1st guy is wrong and is reveling in being wrong. It may not be necessary, but it's required per manufacturer's instructions. End of story. And as has been mentioned several times in this thread, the flashing needs to be isolated because of potential condensation problems. I've had to re-install several skylights due to this problem.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

seeyou said:


> Doesn't matter if I&WS is a newby thing or not (I totally agree that it's over used and I never depend on it after the roof is finished - I do use the hell out of it when re-roofing for temporary protection) because Velux requires it. See the pic below from the ECM installation manual. They ship it with their flashing kits. The 1st guy is wrong and is reveling in being wrong. It may not be necessary, but it's required per manufacturer's instructions. End of story. And as has been mentioned several times in this thread, the flashing needs to be isolated because of potential condensation problems. I've had to re-install several skylights due to this problem.



The point that MJW is getting at tho, if the sky light is installed properly, including interior insulation, etc., than the i&w serves no actual purpose, but because not all contractors know to check such things and above mentioned problems do come up, the manufacturers are faced with training a million contractors to do it right 'very costly - not feasible' or come up with a dummafied procedure 'ice guard'.

I install it 'because it's spec' and so doe's MJW, but that don't make it right/needed, just following the rules & regulations.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> just following the rules & regulations.


 
which makes it ''right and needed''...:innocent:


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

Well, we have made a decision-we decided to go with # 2., He seemed more professional, even wrote down the exact skylight to use(2246). We will go with the synthetic underlayment and the triple layer in the valley between the 2 roofs. Plus I noticed today there is some soft wood at the bottom of the valley gusset, which they can use the suppplied free one sheet for. I think we made the right decision. I'm sure #1 has done many sudccessful roofs, but his attitude that no iw shield is needed around the skylight and his use of the very standard #15 felt made me think.. He does underbid others to get the job, but is it worth it. $135 for my neighbor and $215 for me-synthetic all around and properly shielded........thanks
G and neighbor


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

tomstruble said:


> as long as the roofer guaranties his work you should be fine--I don`t agree
> 
> velux has an installation method they want used tell each roofer that's how YOU want them installed


Before ice and water shield ,fwlt was folded up the wall,or onto the skylight frame to prevent wind driven rain and ice backup at those areas as they are a source of major heat loss,which can also cause a buildup of ice at those areas,which can enter thru the flashings in those situations,
Just becAUSE A ROOFER GUARANTEES IT DOESN`T MEAN A THING,HOW LONG DO Want to deal with problems from a substandard installation ????

And yes the velux installation technique calls for fitting the ice and water shield around the curb of the skylight prior to installing the flashing kit.

1 things for sure :If you want a manufacturer to stand behind their product,you have to do the install according to their specifications.
you can find the relevant information at www.velux.com


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

don`t put ice and water on the entire roof,unless it`s under a 4 pitch,and if thats the case and you do,make extra sure everything is well ventilated from soffit to ridge/clerestory or whatever


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> The point that MJW is getting at tho, if the sky light is installed properly,* including interior insulation, etc.,* than the i&w serves no actual purpose, but because not all contractors know to check such things and above mentioned problems do come up, the manufacturers are faced with training a million contractors to do it right 'very costly - not feasible' or come up with a dummafied procedure 'ice guard'.
> 
> I install it 'because it's spec' and so doe's MJW, but that don't make it right/needed, just following the rules & regulations.


The insulation is the problem. Curb mount or deck mount, there is only a layer of drywall and 5/4 or 2x4 separating indoor and outdoor temps at the flashing. In freezing climates, there will be condensation on the back of the flashing. The membrane keeps it outside the shell.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

Thanks, again. We have soffit vents and I do have a ridge vent. Neighbor doesn't know if she wants a ridge vent. Presently she doesn't have one, whereas I do.
George


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

the roofing god said:


> Before ice and water shield ,fwlt was folded up the wall,or onto the skylight frame to prevent wind driven rain and ice backup at those areas as they are a source of major heat loss,which can also cause a buildup of ice at those areas,which can enter thru the flashings in those situations,
> Just becAUSE A ROOFER GUARANTEES IT DOESN`T MEAN A THING,HOW LONG DO Want to deal with problems from a substandard installation ????
> 
> And yes the velux installation technique calls for fitting the ice and water shield around the curb of the skylight prior to installing the flashing kit.
> ...


 

John...a installer standing behing his work IS what this is all about

ice and water or not:wink:


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

seeyou said:


> Doesn't matter if I&WS is a newby thing or not (I totally agree that it's over used and I never depend on it after the roof is finished - I do use the hell out of it when re-roofing for temporary protection) because Velux requires it. See the pic below from the ECM installation manual. They ship it with their flashing kits. The 1st guy is wrong and is reveling in being wrong. It may not be necessary, but it's required per manufacturer's instructions. End of story. And as has been mentioned several times in this thread, the flashing needs to be isolated because of potential condensation problems. I've had to re-install several skylights due to this problem.


Point taken and I understand what you are saying........

I just get tired of these young punk salesman selling roofs on, (haha) right out sales pitches....and I AM a young punk myself. My point was that, we have all been installing these for years, and installing roofs without synthetic underlayments....and not any problems. 

Contractors should be chosen by their track record, not because of using the latest and greatest products to sell their company. I'm only 31 years old and have already seen plenty of "latest and greatest" supplies turn out to be garbage.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

MJW said:


> Point taken and I understand what you are saying........
> 
> I just get tired of these young punk salesman selling roofs on, (haha) right out sales pitches....and I AM a young punk myself. My point was that, we have all been installing these for years, and installing roofs without synthetic underlayments....and not any problems.
> 
> *Contractors should be chosen by their track record, not because of using the latest and greatest products to sell their company.* I'm only 31 years old and have already seen plenty of "latest and greatest" supplies turn out to be garbage.


And contractors owe it to their customers to stay on top of advanced products and practices. Contractor #1 learned everything he's ever gonna know 20 years ago. It's a continuing process.

I use the synthetics (and have been for almost 10 years now) because they're less expensive than felt for my purposes. I mostly do copper roofs and consequently have a longer open time than a shingler. #15 felt is not an option to me, although it does have it's place. I'm getting ready to tear into a 10-15 year old terne roof to re-work the skylight flashing because they have condensation issues. $2500 to fix a problem $10 worth of I&WS would have prevented. If the original installer had followed the instructions that came in the box, the customer would be a lot happier.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

thing is we can use everything thats recomended but as we all know roofs can still leak... as improbable as it seems


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

tomstruble said:


> John...a installer standing behing his work IS what this is all about
> 
> ice and water or not:wink:


And my point is why open it up to having problems in the 1st place,roofers cover the exterior fix,and usually leave the interior to the homeowners insurance ,,It`s alright to do the job not to the mfgrs specs ???,as long as they cover their work???,meaning don`t worry how many times your ceiling needs repair or painting because he meant well???? , And You have the time to spend having people working on your home when it shouldn`t be necessary ???---whether you back up the flashings with paper or ice and water shield,it`s a necessity.

The details are the most important part of the job ,and should be treated properly--------


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

whatever:yes:


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

I think I said we chose #2, He was the younger person-not a pushy salesman. One of 3 sons who run the company with their father. BTW, they are not a new company. They've been in business for 35 years. He did not try to push anything on me. This is just the product they have been using. If anything the old timer, #1, who now runs the office for the 2 owners was the cocky, "don't tell me", pushy type of salesman. Although he was very nice to speak to.
George









hopefully the above came out. My place is on the right and neighbor on the left. She wants to know if she should invest and get a ridge vent> I already have one. We are talking about the single story adjoining family room additiions.


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*question*

just asking on an opinion on whether neighbor on the left should get a ridge vent for the extension family room while we are having the roofs replaced(apprx. slightly under $200) Is it worth it for her???
Thanks
George


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Does she have soffit venting & rafter vents in place already ?


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## geoss (Jul 10, 2010)

*reply*

she has the same as I do. Those aluminum little holey things under the soffit-on both sides of the "A" and along the one side


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

seeyou said:


> And *contractors owe it to their customers to stay* *on top of advanced products and practices.*quote]
> 
> I agree, but at what point do you “you” decide a product is advanced. When a sales rep. tells you?
> 
> ...


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

kwikfishron said:


> seeyou said:
> 
> 
> > And *contractors owe it to their customers to stay* *on top of advanced products and practices.*quote]
> ...


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