# Crumbling Concrete Footings (Pics)



## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I myself would stay away from the "repair option".

the 36" depth of footing is normally required because of frost heave. footings go below the frost depth so that in the event the ground freezes it would not lift the footing.

in my opinion this repair option would provide an excellent surface for the frost heave to lift the footing.

sounds like new footings properly installed would be your best option. Tell the builder that education costs money, whether in the class room or the school of hard knocks. next time he'll know better.

good luck!


----------



## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Unknown how well they set down below, say, 6" *as I dug out down to 6 or 8 " just to see what was going on down there*.


Ayuh,.... So what did ya see,..??

Is it Just the tops,..??
Is it Solid below,..??


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

Sorry Bondo. I was unclear. Down 6" - 8" level they feel pretty solid and don't just disintegrate when I touch them as did the tops. The color looks a little off - they are darker and look a bit wet even after being dug out and not covered for some time (possible that they are wicking the water up from the ground...) and if I tap it with the back of my Maglite it I'm able to make a slight indentation. Very slight, I admit but on the other hand when I tap my sidewalk it doesn't dent. Sorry I can't be more specific. 

GBrackins - thanks for the feedback.

Dan


----------



## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

I would feel comfortable removing 12" or until it was solid and adding rebar and use a sona tube to bring it back up. Maybe its the angle of camera but footing should be at least 2" above ground.


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

Justin - it's not the angle of the camera. He just did a terrible job of it all. I actually thought about that myself but if I were to rebar straight down into what's there and form a new section of footing on top I was thinking that there'd likely be water seepage between the original footer and the add-on portion. And in the winter that water will freeze and... you know the rest. My back yard is mainly clay and gets a bit boggy at times. Thoughts?


----------



## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

Just make sure the original footing is a little higher in middle so water can not pool. Seams are not uncommon. Think of a cinderblock wall. There is seams everywhere


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

Good point. I need to give that some thought. Thanks again.


----------



## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

So what you'd end up with is a 2'x2' spread footer tied to what's left of the old footer. The ground under the spread footer is going to freeze and heave and do who knows what to the concrete slug underneath it. Most likely it will pull the rebar out of the holes in the old slug and you'll have a gap between the two where water and dirt can enter. As far as cracks, it's going to be a cold joint between two pieces of concrete and that's a lot different than a mortar joint between two courses of cement block. What was the temperature like when he poured the originals? It almost looks like it froze before it cured.


----------



## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

With a larger square top there is a chance of it heaving but making the new footing the same size or smaller than original that wont happen. If you dont like cinderblock comparison then its the same as putting rebar into a larger rock or bedrock when you can't get below frost line. I build alot of decks in mountains and do it all the time and its approved by inspector.


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

If the contractor goes ahead with what he proposes, how will he ensure that the lower portion that he's dowelling into is of adequate strength? If he hit's a few with the roto-hammer that are marginal, and you're at work, do you think he'll actually tear them out and replace them? I don't see your contractor remedying this in a correct fashion to be honest, especially when he proposed such a non-sensical approach to repair, which is bound to fail from frost heave uplift............


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

Guys - thanks so much for engaging in the dialog. It's really, really helpful.

M6 - He poured the footings in July but he had no idea what he was doing, didn't mix them properly, and most of the lighter weight material floated to the top in a somewhat soupy mix which never cured. In September I was able to scratch each of them with my fingernail. They remained wet and I assume that the water inside froze up over the winter and caused that cracking. 

Jomama - the short answer is that this guy is not even going to tell me he'll going to fix it correctly, let alone tell me one thing and do another.

So yesterday after reading Justin's post I went out and kicked around the deck thinking about the repair solution. It was then that I noted that the two joists on the extreme outside of each end of the deck were not hung with joist hangers but instead were toe-nailed (screwed, actually, using 3 5" decking screws) into the end of the ledger board. That's not to code and likely structurally unsound. I also noted that one of these outside joists is not perpendicular to the house - because he misplaced the footing and had to cheat with the joist. These issues are in addition to him erroneously cutting the stringers on the side stairs such that the stairs have a slight backward tilt (they're out of level). He also never properly replaced the vinyl siding underneath the alcove window -there is a huge gap in there - perfect for critter infestation. Looking forward to having to go under there and address that. Not. And did I mention that when he came to look at the deck and I showed him how the deck sagged in the middle (>3" on a 16 foot run) he said, "That didn't sag. I made a mistake when I built it and I knew about that when I did it. I hung a line and marked the posts at the line but I forgot that the line would sag in the middle." There are some other issues as well - mainly minor but in the overall context still unacceptable. 

There are some lessons here, I suppose:

First, and importantly, this guy can never, ever touch that deck again. 

Second, be careful who you hire. This guy told me he "built hundreds of decks in Florida". Either that's a lie or there are a lot of unsafe decks in Florida. 

Third, get a permit - every time. I made a mistake here because he shot down early in the AM on Day 1 and demolished the old deck. Then he runs to get the permit on the assumption that he would have it same-day. Then he comes back and says, could be four to six weeks... you don't really need a permit... they'll just look at the holes... I'm a licensed contractor in NJ and I have to build to code anyway. Meanwhile it's July, I have no deck, my sliding doors open to a 3 1/2 foot drop and I have three little kids running around. I felt pressured into foregoing the permit - even though I had already completed all the paperwork for it. Dumb. I blame no one but myself. No excuses. It was dumb - plain and simple. 

Additional comments or ideas are welcome since I'll have other guys coming in to look at the deck now for repairs.


----------



## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

uncleponto said:


> I showed him how the deck sagged in the middle (>3" on a 16 foot run)


what size are the joists?


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

GBrackins - The joists are 2x10's spaced at roughly 15" on center. The beam is two sistered 2x10's. Beam length is 50'. 

I think I misused the word "sag" here. No single joist is visibly sagging in the middle of its 16' span. Instead, when you look at the deck while standing on the ground directly in front of it you notice that the center of that 50' beam sags in the middle. This is in addition to the fact that the deck is out of level by over 3" across the 16' width - although on the two outermost sides it is "only" out of level 2" (left side as you look at it) and 2.5" (right side as you look at it).


----------



## TheOldPro (Apr 11, 2014)

JustinK said:


> Just make sure the original footing is a little higher in middle so water can not pool. Seams are not uncommon. Think of a cinderblock wall. There is seams everywhere


 - this:thumbsup:


----------



## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I would recommend you download & review this document published by the American Wood Council for the design/construction of Residential Wood Decks. It is based upon the 2009 International Residential Code and is considered an engineered design.

http://www.awc.org/publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf

in some parts of the country (like in Massachusetts) it has been adopted as a part of our state building code.

it will provide you with proper joist dimensions and spacing for various spans, and the same for beams.

post back with any questions.


----------



## uncleponto (Apr 10, 2014)

Thanks. I'll take a look at that before the next guy comes to do the work.


----------

