# Metal roof flashing installed wrong. What do I do?



## whitneys (Nov 5, 2015)

New homeowner here who just got a metal roof installed for the first time. As soon as I saw how the flashing on my new metal roof was installed, I knew it couldn't be right. The shingles and siding were covered by around 8 inches of flashing, and caulked against the vinyl siding. To me, it appears that the flashing should be installed behind my siding and shingles. When I asked the contractors why they did that, they said that pulling out the siding and the shingles was not included in the quote, because I didn't ask for this.

I asked for a new metal roof, expecting it to be installed properly and improve the look of my house. This, you would think, would include putting the flashing on properly. Please help me out someone! I am a first-time home owner and was so excited to get a roof on my house, and now I do not know what to do. I have told them I cannot pay until the work is done right, but I need to be able to articulate myself right when speaking to these guys again. And I need to be educated on just how they should've done it, and how they can fix it. I am assuming that my shingles and siding will have holes from screwing into it (obviously), so what should I ask for? New siding? Please help.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Siding should have been cut back or removed in those areas and flashed to terminated under the siding. 

They fact that it has been screwed into and caulked over means that the siding is now kind of messed up. 

What does the contract say is to be done?


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## KC_Jones (Dec 1, 2014)

You shouldn't have to ask to have it done properly. That isn't correct. If you need to tell them their business they are in the wrong business. You need to get them back out to do a proper job on their dime. Was the specifics of the job written up in the contract?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

KC_Jones said:


> You shouldn't have to ask to have it done properly. That isn't correct. If you need to tell them their business they are in the wrong business. You need to get them back out to do a proper job on their dime. Was the specifics of the job written up in the contract?


To have someone that incompetent, do that sort of a job, would make me believe they would never come back to the house and fix anything. And would you really want them there? The odd thing I saw in the photos was that the second floor did not have the same flashing scenario as the lower roof. Did the same people do both floors?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Is all that siding vinyl? Is the scalloped stuff vinyl or real wood?
Unfortunately to flash those metal panels would have almost required removing the siding and reinstalling the vinyl or replacing the wood. They should have figured that in to the estimate at which point you may have pooped your pants :vs_OMG: and gone with somebody else.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

When you get a bid to perform a job, there are implied or expected industry standards. Flashing always goes on top of the bottom surface and under the top material.

If you have a contract, look at any exclusions. However, if I had someone framing a house for me and many of the 2 x 4's were crooked, and I told them that will not work and he said, "you did not tell me you wanted a level put on them or that's extra", I hired the wrong guy bc he's been smoking felt-paper.

Hopefully you did not pay him yet. I would not use these guys for anything else and I would hire another COMPETENT roofer that could fix this and whatever it costs, deduct it from the "person that screwed down some metal"...I could not bring myself to calling him a roofer.

If you can redact names and addresses, post your contract [as long as all names.no's.etc are completely removed] and let us look at the terms. Also read the quote too and see if there are any exclusions...tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Whitney's

On your metal roofing, do you have long roof lines that require two pieces of metal roofing? if so, see if the piece that goes under the ridge cap at the top of your roof, if the bottom of that pieces goes under or over the piece below it [one that empties into our gutter]. Im sure the piece at the top goes OVER the next piece. Ask them why they did that? The reason is because that's the proper and only way it's supposed to be done, the same w flashing...you get the point.

You do need to see what in the terms and conditions and if you signed something that excludes this. If you did, they still did the job wrong but you now gave them permission to do so...if not, and you have not paid them yet, you control the chess board. If they appear or could be potentially violent, make sure your local LEO's are close...

also, do you have composition shingles underneath? If so, how were the metal panels attached?


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

I think you are done with this guy. Hiring a contractor who is actually a roofer and one who has done metal roofs is a start. If this guy has ever done a roof it was on a house in the back woods somewhere with 6 junk cars and two old farm-alls rusting in the yard. I would go after this guy legally to help pay for the fix. Unfortunately sometimes when you try to bring action against a contractor you have to give the contractor a chance to fix the issue. This was done so badly I don't think he his capable. I think fixing the issues will exceed small claims court limits so you might want to consult with an attorney (normally I laugh at all the lawyer jokes but sometimes they are necessary) to one prevent the contractor from putting a lien on your property and make sure you are made whole for the damage done, which includes doing the roof properly, fixing the damage to the siding and what ever else he screwed up. Don't pay this guy another dime.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

tstex said:


> When you get a bid to perform a job, there are implied or expected industry standards.


Sure there is if a roofer did the job. A roofer did not do this.

What's the industry stranded for Craigslist?


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

But with all the money he saved by using this guy, it will go a long way towards paying the roofer to re-do it.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

SPS-1 said:


> But with all the money he saved by using this guy, it will go a long way towards paying the roofer to re-do it.


 so funny....but sadly so true!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Windows on Wash said:


> so funny....but sadly so true!


 I would suggest the orig poster is pretty far from the funny category...nothing is more personal or frustrating then to have an incompetent "vendor" screw-up your castle...

Here's a suggestion for all. As we would believe, a word of mouth referral from a credible friend or n-bor that had an excellent experience goes a long way...just MAKE SURE you use the exact same installer or person by name that your n-bor used, not just anyone w/in the company...


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

tstex said:


> I would suggest the orig poster is pretty far from the funny category...nothing is more personal or frustrating then to have an incompetent "vendor" screw-up your castle...



Funny was probably a poor adjective. What was more so commenting on was SPS-1's illustrated mantra. 

We see it all the time when folks get into purchasing decisions and wonder why two companies are 30% apart on a similar project. 

I would love to say that you can save every customer from their purchasing foibles, but such is not the case. 

I would interested to see if previous examples of this person's work were inspected, references contacted, or if they selected the bid on price alone. What would you expect if you chose the cheapest variant every time when it came to purchases?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Windows on Wash said:


> Funny was probably a poor adjective. What was more so commenting on was SPS-1's illustrated mantra.
> 
> We see it all the time when folks get into purchasing decisions and wonder why two companies are 30% apart on a similar project.
> 
> ...



Very true, this was likely a case of cheapest bid, the age old adage stands true, "you get what you pay for". 



> I would suggest the orig poster is pretty far from the funny category...nothing is more personal or frustrating then to have an incompetent "vendor" screw-up your castle...


Cheaper bids are usually because of one reason or another, proper flashing is one of them. It's generally done right, or done wrong. There is acceptable practices, if they are not followed they product unacceptable results. 

Interesting story, I received a call a few weeks ago to take a look at a roof, it was on a house single ply (our work is 95% low slope) The caller indicated the roof had been replaced 5 or so years ago, it was not leaking but it was ponding water really bad in the middle, there was an interior drain near the edge of the roof. I went out to take a look at the house and I realized I had bid this house 5 years ago. The original roof was a ballasted EPDM, it had fairly long spans for the open ceiling. I generally bid everything with tapered insulation if not a full taped plan at the very least as big of a sump around the drains as I can. I explained this to the home owner at the time, the ballast roof had most likely bowed the middle ect. Anyway, I was meeting with the son of the owner, as we were talking I explained the situation, we came up with a plan to install taper in one area of the home, with the agreement the rest should be done as well. He told me they went with the cheapest bid at the time, and we were the highest. Us being the highest on residential is not all that uncommon. Mostly because the cheaper bidders do not have the experience that we do. 



> just MAKE SURE you use the exact same installer or person by name that your n-bor used, not just anyone w/in the company...


Good luck with that, you get what crew is ready when the project rolls around. All of the crews should be trained equally and have the same experience real world or otherwise. I'd be offended if someone asked for so and so's crew. My response would be, we are all the same crew, everyone is trained equally working under this company, they are all paid employees and are expected to perform their duties as expected by me, Mr. Roofers crew is busy on another project and will be for awhile, how ever Mr. Flashing's crew is ready to go, they will be ones installing your roof, and I will be the one inspecting your new roof as I do with all new roofs, this is all according to the contract you signed. If you tried to get out of it, the response would dictate if you received your deposit back or not. 

As you can tell I would be very offended by someone asking this. I did tell our State University the exact same thing, we are a unit price contractor for them, they were really impressed with a crew that did a couple of installs for them, we had shifted some people around on the crews and when they asked in the pre-construction meeting if it would be the same crew I said no it would not be, it would be the crew that is available at that time.

@ the OP,

It's time to look for someone else, I know I wouldn't let those clowns step foot on my property again. Have another actual roofer give you a proposal to repair/replace what they have done, keep it to the flashing and to the replacing the siding if the siding needs to be replaced. Use this as a barging chip.



> Hopefully you did not pay him yet. I would not use these guys for anything else and I would hire another COMPETENT roofer that could fix this and whatever it costs, deduct it from the "person that screwed down some metal"...I could not bring myself to calling him a roofer.


You may not legally be able to deduct anything, the material is now yours, even installed improperly its' yours and needs to be paid for.

I would start with getting prices from others, get 3 bids. Meet with the original guy and try and come up with a reasonable solution. By that I mean you may have to use some money out of pocket, as you likely would have hired a more expensive contractor (contractor used lightly there) to start with to get the results you wanted. Everyone learns expensive lessons, no one knows this more then a contractor.

If you can't come up with a reasonable to both parties solution, it may be time to take it to the next level, I would still say you to pay most of the contract. Or talk to an attorney first before not paying them, holding money may be worse for you then paying him 100%.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

1985, I can tell you seem to be a good person and are prob in the top % of contractors in your trade, but your last post is full of contradictions. Also, if an alleged contractor completely botches their work and causes consequential and collateral damages due to: sub-standard work, poor workmanship by not meeting industry std/best or normal practices, then the buyer has the option to indemnify themselves from full or partial payment to remedy the wrong to make themselves whole. If a plumber has contract that says "payment due upon completion of job" but when the water pressure is back on the pipes leak, and the contract does not state specifically that "all pipes will not leak", the homeowner is neither legally/ethically compelled nor obligated to pay, regardless of contract, unless it states "some portion of pipes up to 25% can leak". If so and the customer signs that or does not read the agreement, then they got exactly what they deserved.

Finally, in very large construction companies w many crews, there is absolutely nothing offensive at the time of inquiry to ask for or state you want a specific project manager and make that a part of the contract up front. You might be that person they ask for, but nothing is wrong w it. And if you think that all work crews are the same in lg companies, well, that statement serves itself. This pertains more to smaller companies and crews where project managers or lead op's managers have built a stellar reputation and people want them by request bc they are more than likely insured their job will be done correctly. 

The realm and mkt of the construction and each trade is quite diff now than 40-50 yrs ago. Now everything is based on price while previously is was based on quality. This as a whole, and unfortunately those that buy purely on price, are more inclined to involve a retrofit. Retrofitting combined from beginning to end, a consumer will pay more than if they went w the most qualified, experienced and quality driven vendor upfront. Experience w/out research and homework = $$$$ & poor decision making.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

OP stated that he has not paid them yet, (although he probably had too put down a deposit). Windows explained in the second post what the OP already seemed to know about the right way and the wrong way. The only questions left now are do you let these jokers back on your property to do more work, and are they willing to come back on his property to do it properly.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

tstex said:


> 1985, I can tell you seem to be a good person and are prob in the top % of contractors in your trade, but your last post is full of contradictions.


I'm not seeing a post full of contradictions, help me out. 

In any case I don't know if the op got multiple bids and took the lowest one or not. What I know is if I did the bid I would probably have specked the removal of siding and corner trim anywhere I needed to get long pieces of flashing in place. I would have priced my bid with an assumption any wood siding would be trashed but vinyl siding could be reused. I would have priced that in and it likely woould have added hundreds of dollars to my bid, maybe more, depending on how many dormers and gables were involved, how much wood siding I would replace (and paint) etc. So if the OP took the lowest bid and it was thousands less he may still be ahead paying full price to removing the flashing pieces, removing the siding and redoing the sidewall, endwall detail. 

and if anyone does business with 1985GT I highly recommend Ms. Thongs crew if you can get them, or Ms Gstring. I asked but he sent Mr. Knuckledragers crew to my job and while the quality of work was fine I felt the rapport was less than desirable.


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## ZTMAN (Feb 19, 2015)

To OP, there are a lot of comments about the quality of the work and how it should have been done, but at this point, I would take a look at the Pa Attorney General's website to see if you contractor was registered and if he followed the rules in Pa:

http://hicsearch.attorneygeneral.gov/

I would contact them to see what they have for a history.

I would also get a roofer out there , who does metal roofs, to give you an estimate to fix the work the original contractor clearly botched.

From there you will have info to proceed


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

tstex said:


> 1985, I can tell you seem to be a good person and are prob in the top % of contractors in your trade, but your last post is full of contradictions. Also, if an alleged contractor completely botches their work and causes consequential and collateral damages due to: sub-standard work, poor workmanship by not meeting industry std/best or normal practices, then the buyer has the option to indemnify themselves from full or partial payment to remedy the wrong to make themselves whole. If a plumber has contract that says "payment due upon completion of job" but when the water pressure is back on the pipes leak, and the contract does not state specifically that "all pipes will not leak", the homeowner is neither legally/ethically compelled nor obligated to pay, regardless of contract, unless it states "some portion of pipes up to 25% can leak". If so and the customer signs that or does not read the agreement, then they got exactly what they deserved.
> 
> But that is where you are wrong, a contract is legally binding. Money is exchanged for goods and services. Who is judging the std/best practices? If that was the case there would be a whole lot more contractors being stiffed because the home owner felt the work was not up to their standard.
> 
> ...


I agree, all though there has been in my area a trend to spend a bit more and have the project done correctly the first time. There will always be the low price people. This will sound somewhat offensive but it's the walmart mentality.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

craig11152 said:


> and if anyone does business with 1985GT I highly recommend Ms. Thongs crew if you can get them, or Ms Gstring. I asked but he sent Mr. Knuckledragers crew to my job and while the quality of work was fine I felt the rapport was less than desirable.



:laughing:

Mr. Knuckledrager can be a handful to deal with, one heck of a worker though. For there record most of the guys here are knuckledragers, if there is a Ms. Thong or Ms. Gstring around this place I'm 100% sure you wouldn't want to meet them. :laughing:


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## hotrod351 (Jun 15, 2012)

well he must of been thousands under the next guy. was he licensed ? im sure the roof is water tight but the wall is a mess. siding should of been cut up. or at least he should of cut a nice straight groove into it, thee used a counter flashing recessed into the groove. what a less. like having your car painted then taking a rock and running a scratch all the way down the side.


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## hotrod351 (Jun 15, 2012)

by the way i say a groove because where i live 95% are stucco and we dont get much rain. still what a mess. its all in the detail.


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## whitneys (Nov 5, 2015)

*Good news, sort of.*

Apologies for being silent on this thread since posting. I've wanted to update, but have wanted more so to put this experience behind me once it was finally taken care of. I feel obligated to respond though, as much of the advice here helped tremendously. I appreciate all the help.

In response to some of you who believe I hired these guys because they were cheap: Not the case. The quote on this job was not cheap by a long shot, and they supposedly have a good reputation; recommended to me by my own mother. However, there were tons of issues from the beginning with the installers particularly that you guys haven't heard yet (Yes, there is much more to the story. Get your popcorn ready)...

- The two installers (man and woman. We'll call them Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum) seemed to not be dependable from the beginning.

- Tweedle Dee and Dum didn't show at all some days, when they said they would be here at 9:00 AM.

- Were hours late when they did show. Their supervisor (the subcontractor. We'll call him Billy Bob.) only made rare appearances, which I assumed was normal. --- _Side note: The main contractor/head guy/whatever you call him was whom I hired in the beginning. I will call him The Invisible Man_

- Billy Bob showed up once to deliver some large boards for the Tweedles and left them in front of my fence at the road and said they'd be here shortly. Billy Bob left. They didn't show for several hours. And I ended up having FOUR different people pull up to ask if I was giving the boards away.

_Note: I was told over and over "That's just how these guys work." and "If you fire them now, they will want a significant amount of money even if they've done next to nothing." Thinking I know nothing about this kind of thing, I trusted their judgement and proceeded. I have no one to really blame but myself though, I know._

- When Dee and Dum were here they only worked for an hour or two.

- The Tweedles seemed to be in a relationship and yelled at each other about non roof-related stuff frequently. I work from home, so I heard everything.

- When I felt helpless about the job I decided to call the head guy, The Invisible Man, to ask what's up (more than once), he acted as if he was too busy. And he said he subcontracted this to another guy who is supposed to be taking care of everything.

- The worst part: Dee and Dum didn't patch one area and said they'd be back the next day (a sunny day) to do a lot more work. Didn't show the next day at all, and I could not get in touch with them. Then the following day it rained, and water was pouring into my living room (seriously). I had to make several calls before The Invisible Man came out himself to get up there to fix it. He told me I just needed to get some Kilz to my walls from the water damage. Did not offer me a dime or to fix it himself, even after i said I had painted my living room recently. Then, while The Invisible Man was patching the spot, the two wayward Tweedles showed up, and the IM ended up leaving. Tweedle Dee (the woman) said "I'm sorry ma'am. I think I might've stepped through the roof and made that hole myself." I ended up going back inside to work, assuming they'd be taking off since it was pouring outside and the IM patched the spot. About 5 minutes goes by and I hear a loud sound. The woman had been on the roof sweeping leaves (keep in mind, it's raining and they were supposed to be working on the roof the day before; a sunny day. And I did not request that these two idiots come at all that day. The Invisible Man insisted that he himself take care of the patch). Anyway, I heard a loud sound, and I discovered that the woman fell off the roof! I ran outside when I heard moaning. It was a short fall, but I realized she was slurring and reeked of alcohol. Regardless, my want to help kicked in and I rushed to get my first aid kit. She said her wrist hurt, and my gutter was bent from where she tried to hang on. Her male counterpart Tweedle Dum got angry with her immediately instead of asking if she was okay and then said to me "This is why we don't work in the rain...Don't worry, we ain't gonna sue you. We aren't [insert a horribly racist, shocking word here that made me put my hand over my mouth]." I decided to go inside and not speak to them again after they insisted it was okay. She came back with a cast on the next day and they continued to work.​
After the rain subsided and work continued, I thought the worst HAD to be over. All of the work looked good. But the last day when they asked me to check it out, I looked at the flashing (Didn't know the word "flashing" until that day. Now I feel nauseous every time I hear it or say it) and realized something had to be wrong. If you guys haven't figured it out by now, I am a young woman taking care of this primarily on my own. I have been told to be wary of being screwed over because of this, but I like to give "professionals" the benefit of the doubt; especially when I am paying a pretty penny for their services. Even as a woman who knows next to nothing about roof work, I knew the flashing was really jacked up; I think anyone could look at that and realize that. It made me sick to see the siding and scallops covered by this slab of metal.

Oh! Have to throw this part in: I told these guys that evening (the whole crew) that I was not at all satisfied and that I would have an inspector come out to tell me just what all is wrong, and I scheduled to have the crew out at 11:00 AM the next day (I had a conference call at home early that morning and did not wish to be disturbed). That morning around 8:30 AM, I was on my conference call when I heard several people outside. I ended up having to end that call with my client to see what was up. Before I had a chance to walk outside I heard one of the guys say "She isn't here. She won't know. We need to get those materials out of there to finish this." and then I heard my manual garage door open. I was absolutely furious; don't think I've ever been so mad. They didn't finish one tiny section of siding (included in the job quote) and decided to sneak it in; presumably to call the job "complete". I put all extra siding back in my garage the night before thinking it wasn't getting done, and told these guys more than once that they need to ask me to open the garage before going in there. They didn't realize I was actually home that morning apparently. I ended up running outside and screaming at them to close my garage door right now (with a few expletives thrown in) and that I am trying to work. They ended up leaving and not coming back to my place to discuss the flashing debacle until 4:00 pm, unannounced.

After having it inspected and getting the supervisor to agree to fix the flashing himself, I can now say that I am finally satisfied with the job. Ended up agreeing to pay less for the work and the new scallop, siding and other materials were purchased by The Invisible Man who seemed to become more visible once he realized how gigantic of a screw up Billy Bob and the Tweedles had made (see the attached photos). I can't say I am happy, but I can say I am relieved that it is supposedly fixed. But boy, do I feel like a fool.

Please tell me this is not common. I would not wish this on anyone.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

That looks much better. Looks like he did a good job on the repair.
Crazy story, definitely not the norm.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

whitneys said:


> .....I hired these guys because.... they supposedly have a good reputation; _recommended to me by my own mother._


Well it looks good and if it doesn't leak then the only thing left to do is......fire your Mom. :vs_karate: 

:wink2:


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

:surprise:

There would have been more then one person physically removed from there....

I'm glad it seem to have worked out in the end, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. What a terrible thing to go through, and no, as far as I'm aware that is not the norm.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Whitney,

Thanks for the long post and follow-up. You've been thru hell. The other guys have reiterated that no, this is not the norm. 

Next, if your mom recommended them, can you pls tell us who is "them"? The main contractor, the sub, or the actual workers or sub's "helpers"? This is what I mean when you need to make sure that if your mom used "them", that you make sure you use the same ones that did her job when dealing w smaller companies? I know there are some on the board that disagree w me, but when using referrals, I am really aggressive on making sure I get the same people that did the referring persons work. 

I'm stepping out on a branch here, but if she hired the main contractor, chances are someone else did her work for sure, and not the two that you received: drinking on the job, falling off a roof, using foul language to a female client, this is surely not the experience you signed-up for nor it is, [I'm assuming] the experience your mom had I am willing to bet.

Lastly, I hope the prime person on this contract either reduced your bill or came back and fixed the water damaged area(s) to make you fully whole. As what the other posters did state, and I fully agree, any discount these guys offered was surely not worth the mental anguish and collateral damage. But hey, now you know what flashing means . And since there are a lot of great contractors on his board, perhaps they can help you if you have any future issues. 

Good luck,
tstex


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