# 20A Circuit Breaker, 30A dryer, is it OK?



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Breaker and wire need to be changed.


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Jbfan, can you elaborate? what would happen if i don't change them? would the breaker trip constantly? 

based on my calculation it seems that I should have enough wattage with existing wire/breaker, no? 

Thanks.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

If the instructions call for a 30 amp circuit, then it does not matter what calculations you come up with, the instructions must be followed.

Would it trip? Maybe not, but the code is clear on following manufacturers instructions.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Why didn't your "electrician" follow Mfg's instructions ?

I've yet to see a 20a dryer ?

You need to replace the wire & breaker


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Got it. Thanks a lot guys!


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Why didn't your "electrician" follow Mfg's instructions ?
> 
> I've yet to see a 20a dryer ?
> 
> You need to replace the wire & breaker


Along with replacing the so called "electrician".


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You won't fit the dryer 30 amp plug into the 20 amp receptacle. You can't put a 30 amp receptacle on the 20 amp circuit.


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

If you indeed had an electrician do this, i would make him pay to have a real professional do it. If you really did it on your own, its time for you to pay a professional!


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## williswires (Jul 21, 2008)

ninghai said:


> My electrician put in a 20A double circuit breaker, it feeds a 240V/30A receptacle using 12G-3 wire which I plan to plug my new electrical dryer into.


Did your electrician install the whole circuit, or did he just replace the breaker on the existing circuit?

If he installed a new circuit, he should have installed a larger circuit.

If the circuit conductors were already in place, then he was safe and correct in installing the 20A breaker for the existing 12AWG circuit conductors (but still not able to have a 30A receptacle on it).

You still need a larger circuit for your dryer.


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

williswires said:


> Did your electrician install the whole circuit, or did he just replace the breaker on the existing circuit?
> 
> If he installed a new circuit, he should have installed a larger circuit.
> 
> If the circuit conductors were already in place, then he was correct in installing the 20A breaker for the existing 12AWG circuit conductors, although you still need a larger circuit for your dryer.


The electrician should have at least made him aware if he knew it was a dryer. unfortunately we are getting no more information from the op.


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

This was new construction so the electrician actually also did the circuit panel. His excuse now is "I thought you are installing a gas dryer". Is this plausible?

What is absolutely non-execusable is that he apparently got a 20A power cord and hooked my dryer to plug into the 20A receptacle he put in. By that time he clearly should've realized that I've got an electrical dryer and it requires 30A and he still went ahead and did it without telling me. (I just found out my dryer didn't come with a power cord, to my supprise! Then I read online that most dryers don't. Hmm.... something is missing here.)

In any case, I am going to replace the circuit breaker to 30A, replace the wire to 10-3, replace the receptable to 4-wire, and replace the power cord to 30A....

My lesson: never blindly trust anyone else doing work at your home. Always make sure you know exactly what is going on even if you hire someone to do it. I have learned so much in this construction process. I never thought after paying boat-load of money to someone you'd still have to spend so much time to learn because they simply will screw up if you don't watch or if you don't know where to look. A bit of ranting I know....


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Gas dryers have a gas connection & a pre-installed 120v electric cord (as far as I know)
Many (if not all) 240v appliances do not come with cords
Sounds like he doesn't know what he is doing
Also sounds like he ran a 20a 120v circuit

And if he connected a 20a 120v circuit to a 30a 240v plug/outlet then he definitely does not know what he is doing
Actually re-read & you said he ran a 20a 240v to the 30a plug/outlet
Still wrong


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## williswires (Jul 21, 2008)

ninghai said:


> This was new construction so the electrician actually also did the circuit panel. His excuse now is "I thought you are installing a gas dryer". Is this plausible?


If he thought that, he would not have installed 12/3 w/g, it would have been 12/2 w/g. 



> What is absolutely non-execusable is that he apparently got a 20A power cord and hooked my dryer to plug into the 20A receptacle he put in. By that time he clearly should've realized that I've got an electrical dryer and it requires 30A and he still went ahead and did it without telling me.


I was giving the electrician the benefit of the doubt until you could tell us if he did all the wiring...now you have absolutely confirmed what the others said right away - he doesn't know what he's doing or does know but doesn't care.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Wow sounds like this electrician is full of fail. I installed my dryer receptacle in my new house as the old dryer was hard wired to the panel (lol) and even I knew to use 30 amps just from basic research. Even if he thought it was gas he should have at least used 10/3 to future proof it.

When I bought my dryer it came with the cord but maybe it's because they installed it at the store. I've never had to install the cord myself on an appliance, but I would imagine it's not too hard.


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

Red Squirrel said:


> Wow sounds like this electrician is full of fail. I installed my dryer receptacle in my new house as the old dryer was hard wired to the panel (lol) and even I knew to use 30 amps just from basic research. Even if he thought it was gas he should have at least used 10/3 to future proof it.
> 
> When I bought my dryer it came with the cord but maybe it's because they installed it at the store. I've never had to install the cord myself on an appliance, but I would imagine it's not too hard.


Yeah the store must have installed it for you, everyone I've ever seen does not come with plug installed on it. 

Common sense should have told this electrician that if he was wiring for a dryer to ask gas or electric. If i were the OP i would have someone inspect all the other work this guy did.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

A gas dryer wouldn't need a 240 circuit.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Paelectrican said:


> Yeah the store must have installed it for you, everyone I've ever seen does not come with plug installed on it.
> 
> Common sense should have told this electrician that if he was wiring for a dryer to ask gas or electric. If i were the OP i would have someone inspect all the other work this guy did.


 
I agree with Paelectrician .,

I will ask the owner of that place if they are going with gaz or electrique dryer and I always automatic ask them even thru if they use gaz I still go ahead and run the electrique 240v 30 amp for dryer in case that person change their mind with it which it allready happend couple time and they thanks me for the foward thought ditto with stove as well.

Merci,Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

just wanted to close the loop on this one. i yanked out the double pole 20A breaker, put in a double pole 30A breaker. i ran a new 10-3 line from the breaker to the wall near the dryer. i replaced the receptacle to a 30A one, and installed a new power cord that's 30A as well. everything appears to be working fine so far. 

the only thing is, i first installed a surface-mount 4-wire 30A receptacle, coupled with a 4-wire 30A power cord. then i found out the receptacle is so thick on the wall that i can't push my dryer all the way in under the counter top. i had to then go back to HD and got a 3-wire 30A recetacle that is flush-mount, and a corresponding 3-wire power cord. so i just left the ground wire in my 10-3 line un-attached, and hooked up the 2 hot and 1 neutral wire. on the dryer it seems that the neutral and the ground is connected so i guess this is OK. please let me know if this is not the case.

thanks guys!


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

ninghai said:


> just wanted to close the loop on this one. i yanked out the double pole 20A breaker, put in a double pole 30A breaker. i ran a new 10-3 line from the breaker to the wall near the dryer. i replaced the receptacle to a 30A one, and installed a new power cord that's 30A as well. everything appears to be working fine so far.
> 
> the only thing is, i first installed a surface-mount 4-wire 30A receptacle, coupled with a 4-wire 30A power cord. then i found out the receptacle is so thick on the wall that i can't push my dryer all the way in under the counter top. i had to then go back to HD and got a 3-wire 30A recetacle that is flush-mount, and a corresponding 3-wire power cord. so i just left the ground wire in my 10-3 line un-attached, and hooked up the 2 hot and 1 neutral wire. on the dryer it seems that the neutral and the ground is connected so i guess this is OK. please let me know if this is not the case.
> 
> thanks guys!


Do you understand that the ground is there for your personal safety???


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

so should i leave the neutral wire un-attached? there are only 3 terminals on the receptacle. the dryer instruction states that it requires the neutral wire in a 3-wire configuration. i guess i am confused.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

ninghai said:


> just wanted to close the loop on this one. i yanked out the double pole 20A breaker, put in a double pole 30A breaker. i ran a new 10-3 line from the breaker to the wall near the dryer. i replaced the receptacle to a 30A one, and installed a new power cord that's 30A as well. everything appears to be working fine so far.
> 
> the only thing is, i first installed a surface-mount 4-wire 30A receptacle, coupled with a 4-wire 30A power cord. then i found out the receptacle is so thick on the wall that i can't push my dryer all the way in under the counter top.* i had to then go back to HD and got a 3-wire 30A recetacle that is flush-mount, and a corresponding 3-wire power cord. so i just left the ground wire in my 10-3 line un-attached, and hooked up the 2 hot and 1 neutral wire. on the dryer it seems that the neutral and the ground is connected so i guess this is OK. please let me know if this is not the case*.
> 
> thanks guys!


That is plain wrong to do that and you can NOT go back to 3 wire format you have to stay with 4 wire format the code is very strict with this.

there is something wrong with this set up and I really advise you do not do anything more with the electrical system senice your so called electrician work on this place and IMO there are few legal issue allready arised now.

Merci,Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Would you mind explaining it to me? I really would like to learn.

1. The dryer installation manual clearly states that you can either use a 3-wire cord, or a 4-wire cord.

2. Home Depot sells 3-wire dryer cord and 3-wire 30A receptacle. The sales guy told me it is with code or they wouldn't sell it.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

ninghai said:


> Would you mind explaining it to me? I really would like to learn.
> 
> 1. The dryer installation manual clearly states that you can either use a 3-wire cord, or a 4-wire cord.
> 
> 2. Home Depot sells 3-wire dryer cord and 3-wire 30A receptacle. The sales guy told me it is with code or they wouldn't sell it.


 Sure very simple .,,

due you allready have new construction in your place right ??

then the code is very specfic that you only can run 4 wire set up can not use 3 wire set up for your electrique dryer.

The only time you can use the 3 wire is if you have older home and it is a oringal wire or wired before *1996* that time before that year it can allowed but after 1996 it is not legal any more the same thing with older home when they rewire or relocated the dryer or stove { this part do cover as well } they must use 4 wire set up the 3 wire is no longer legit after 1996.

There is 4 wire recessed receptale for your dryer I do not know why your so called " electrician " used surface mounted receptale that is not really kosher that is really lack of common sense there.

as far for Home Depot store personalles I just really can't comment too much without cussing in French so therefore a simple answer they know nothing about the codes most are just a workers in the HD store and they move around and most of them are not really aware with codes at all.

expect few workers whom are famuair with codes they stay in that department much longer.

Merci,Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Makes sense. I didn't see any flush mount 240V 30A 4-wire receptacle at HD, that's why I went with the surface-mount and later found the dimension wouldn't work. And then I went wit the 3-wire flush-mount. I knew 4-wire is safer but thought 3-wire is OK too.

I will replace it with a 4-wire flush mount model once I found it somewhere else.

Meanwhile, does what you said about the 4-wire requirement apply to 20A as well? I found my washer is on a 240V 20A 3-wire receptacle as well. 

BTW, this is an old home but we gutted everything so all wiring is new.

Thanks!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

ninghai said:


> Makes sense. I didn't see any flush mount 240V 30A 4-wire receptacle at HD, that's why I went with the surface-mount and later found the dimension wouldn't work. And then I went wit the 3-wire flush-mount. I knew 4-wire is safer but thought 3-wire is OK too.
> 
> I will replace it with a 4-wire flush mount model once I found it somewhere else.


There is no excuse for HD store not to stock the 4 wire recessed dryer recetpale at all I know my local HD store in Wisconsin do stock them.


> Meanwhile, does what you said about the 4-wire requirement apply to 20A as well? I found my washer is on a 240V 20A 3-wire receptacle as well.
> 
> BTW, this is an old home but we gutted everything so all wiring is new.
> 
> Thanks!


for your washer you will need to check your owner manual if they required netural conductor or not if not you can keep the 12-3 NM there just fold back the netural but DO NOT cut it off just cap it off and use the straght 6-20R that will meet the code if the washer required straght 240 volt circuit.

Typical most North Americian washer do require 120 v 20 amp circuit { not the same with European verison they reqired 240 volt 16/20 amp circuit }

I am not sure but somewhere in the thread you mention 10-3 NM for dryer if so that fine otherwise the 12-3 NM is not legal for dryer espcally on 30 amp circuit this is very serious issue here

Ok with old home that allready gutted and all the wiring is new so there are a bit of code will be apply to this so we treat them like new construction wiring so nothing is grandfathered at all due you open the walls that is clear case with the codes.

so therefore not only in this thead and the other thread as you know I did reply in other thread as well and really I think you should stop at the moment and get the photo uploaded so we can verify if this is correct set up to meet the codes a photo worth a thousand words here so take couple at the breaker box and get one for dryer receptale as well so one of us will steer you in right direction.

P.S. I am Electrician by trade in both USA and France so few members here are Electrician as well so they will tell you the straght answer as well.

Merci,Marc


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

ninghai said:


> just wanted to close the loop on this one. i yanked out the double pole 20A breaker, put in a double pole 30A breaker. i ran a new 10-3 line from the breaker to the wall near the dryer. i replaced the receptacle to a 30A one, and installed a new power cord that's 30A as well. everything appears to be working fine so far.


Any new wiring you do will need to be re-inspected by the Inspector

I have not heard of a 240v washer
Is this a stacked combo unit with washer & dryer ?
Is it a high end washer with steam capabilities ?

Once you have gutted all the wiring you are now required to meet all new codes


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Just to clarify the reasoning on the four wire system. Your dryer probably requires 240 volts for the drying circuit, and 120 volts for the controls. The drying circuit runs off the two hot wires, typically red and black, which are 240 volts with respect to each other. 

The 120 volt circuit runs off one of the hot wires, and a neutral, which should be white. It also needs an independent equipment ground, which is the green wire. Hence four wires, two hots (red and black), a neutral (white), and an independent equipment ground (green).

Older dryers only used 3 wire cords, and they are grandfathered in provided you did not run new wiring (you reused old wiring). In the three wire setup, the grounding strap from the dryer is attached to the neutral rather than being attached to an independent equipment ground (the green wire).


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I don't know abut the USA, but dryer receptacles here are face plates that mount to a box. So once the box is there you put which ever receptacle in you need.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

What Joed show the photo that is Canada verison of 4 wire recessed dryer recptale and here the typical USA 4 wire recessed dryer receptale look like { I am sure Joed did see simauir to this as well }

Anyway here what it look like











plus you have to get the recetpale cover to fit this.

Merci, Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

i found the 4-wire flush-mount receptacle at another HD, and i have already replaced the 3-wire one. i also replace the power cord to 4-wire, and removed the bonding strap between neutral and ground in the dryer.

my washer does require 240v as well. it is an European model (Asko). but apparently it can be plugged into my Asko dryer, which provides a 3-wire receptacle, specifically for Asko washer, in the back of the dryer where dryer power cord is installed.

i am a little worried that the washer and dryer are now on the same 30A circuit. but this is kosher according to the manufacture specification. i turned both on and they hummed along happily...


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Daniel Holzman said:


> Just to clarify the reasoning on the four wire system. Your dryer probably requires 240 volts for the drying circuit, and 120 volts for the controls. The drying circuit runs off the two hot wires, typically red and black, which are 240 volts with respect to each other.
> 
> The 120 volt circuit runs off one of the hot wires, and a neutral, which should be white. It also needs an independent equipment ground, which is the green wire. Hence four wires, two hots (red and black), a neutral (white), and an independent equipment ground (green).
> 
> Older dryers only used 3 wire cords, and they are grandfathered in provided you did not run new wiring (you reused old wiring). In the three wire setup, the grounding strap from the dryer is attached to the neutral rather than being attached to an independent equipment ground (the green wire).


Just a little more clarification.
NEVER has a grounded conductor (EGC) been allowed to carry any current. Meaning a 3 wire circuit has always been a violation if the dryer or any other appliance is rated 120/230. I have never met a dryer that was not rated 120/230.
NEVER would a 10/2 NM cable been compliant. Even 30 years ago. What was allowed was the use of SE cable. I still to this day wonder how this practice was ever allowed. 3 wire NM or SE. It is clearly wrong.
But in no case, should a grounded conductor (EGC) carry current unless it is fault current.
The only point the neutral and grounded conductors may be connected together is at the MAIN service panel. That is why the jumper on the dryer must be removed or disconnected.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

J. V. said:


> Just a little more clarification.
> NEVER has a grounded conductor (EGC) been allowed to carry any current. .


A grounded conductor is not the same as an Equipment Grounding Conductor. 

A Grounded Conductor by deffinition from the NEC is- A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.

The Equiptment Grounding Conductor by deffinition from the NEC is- The conductive path installed to connect normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor or both.

Up until 1996 the NEC allowed the Frames of DRyers and Ranges to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor if certain conditions were met. One of which was an SE cable originating at the service equipment.

After the 1996 code cycle you had to run 4 wire to a range and dryer the frames were no longer allowed to be connected to the grounded conductor. You had to run an equipment grounding conductor with the two hots for your 240 volts and a grounded conductor for your 120 volts, and a equipment grounding conductor for your frame.

The grounded conductor (neutral) almost always carries current. 
Except in multi-wire circuits.
Neutral is not really a proper term for the conductor.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

codeone said:


> Neutral is not really a proper term for the conductor.


But it IS a widely and generally accepted term. :thumbsup:
The same could be said for the term "sub-panel".


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't think the term neutral was ever intended to refer to the conductor as carrying zero current, as was correctly pointed out the neutral in a 120 volt circuit is a current carrying conductor, identically to the "hot". I think the term neutral referred to the fact that the "neutral" is at the same voltage potential as ground, which is typically taken to be zero, hence the term neutral.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> But it IS a widely and generally accepted term. :thumbsup:


I understand Speedy Petey I use the term neutral all the time myself.
Was just trying to clarify the comment in the post before mine that the grounded conductor is not supposed to carry current.

People also think that current is trying to find ground. They dont understand that its trying to go back to its source. Therefore a complete circle. the only reason it goes to ground is that we have a grounded system.:thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

codeone said:


> People also think that current is trying to find ground. They dont understand that its trying to go back to its source. Therefore a complete circle. the only reason it goes to ground is that we have a grounded system.:thumbsup:


It's kind of scary how many life long sparkys still don't get that. :huh:


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