# How toxic is paint in the soil? (I have a vegegarden)



## htabbas (Oct 25, 2011)

It's probably a newbee question. But where do you wash your paint brush? I just realized that my contractor has been washing their paint brushes in my backyard. :furious: I have a veggie garden about 15 ft from the dumping site. How toxic is paint waste? Most of it are latex interior water-based paints. Some are stucco paint. 

Thanks!


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## Rob1975 (Apr 30, 2011)

If it's just been their brushes and not much more, you should be fine. I wouldn't recommend it continuing.

At least in the drain it is going to a treatment plant and is removed from the water table. Dumping it in the ground is never a good idea.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Latex paint contains mostly water, it is water soluble and will be diluted even more while the brushes etc are being cleaned. It is not hazardous and not really toxic. The only real problem with latex paint is, fumes, VOCS, Volitle organic compounds, but as for washing brushes in the yard there should not be a problem.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

housepaintingny said:


> Latex paint contains mostly water, it is water soluble and will be diluted even more while the brushes etc are being cleaned. It is not hazardous and not really toxic. The only real problem with latex paint is, fumes, VOCS, Volitle organic compounds, but as for washing brushes in the yard there should not be a problem.



say what?

Dude- you do need to do a little research into what goes into paint.
Some " waterbornes" actually contain no water... but can be reduced by water..

Pick a can- any can... read the ingredients. Then look at what you wrote.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I use Aura low VOC as a desert topping.


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## Rob1975 (Apr 30, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> say what?
> 
> Dude- you do need to do a little research into what goes into paint.
> Some " waterbornes" actually contain no water... but can be reduced by water..
> ...


Funny thing is he is an "EPA Certified Firm". Anyone from the EPA want to chime in?


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Who , me? I am, and I know that there is more than water in latex paint....

But I don't know if I want to go to Joes house for desert...


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Brushjockey said:


> Who , me? I am, and I know that there is more than water in latex paint....
> 
> But I don't know if I want to go to Joes house for desert...[/quote]
> 
> ...


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

htabbas said:


> It's probably a newbee question. But where do you wash your paint brush? I just realized that my contractor has been washing their paint brushes in my backyard. :furious: I have a veggie garden about 15 ft from the dumping site. How toxic is paint waste? Most of it are latex interior water-based paints. Some are stucco paint.
> 
> Thanks!


Hiya ht...

I gotta lot to add here, but first - You need to hire a new contractor. You've got to wonder what other unprofessional practices he's employed here if he's doing something as flagrant as cleaning equipment in your back yard. Let it be known, there is not one manufacturer or government agency, in this nation, that'd condone this type of activity.

That said, if he was only cleaning brushes and rollers from using latex paints, there will be no problems. The fact that you said "most" of it was latex causes some concerns though. If latex, Rob1975 and housepaintingny (hpn) are right, no harm done to your garden, lawn or environment...

HPN wasn't completely wrong in his remarks. He did preface those remarks in regards to latex...and the truth is, latex paints *are* mostly water. And, as far as the toxicity of latex paints, they're pretty low on the scale. The most harmful of elements in latex coatings are, as hpn said, those solvents (VOC's) that flash off anyway...even if this guy was cleaning out a fully loaded brush and cover, there'd only be about 2-3 teaspoons of toxic solvent before it would be diluted 1000X with the water used to clean with. Keeping things in proper perspective, one often spills that much (2-3 teaspoons) of gasoline (un-diluted) onto the lawn when filling the lawnmower. Another perspective to consider regarding the toxicity of latex paints is, while not advisable, it's legal to flush latex paints down the ol' crapper (in moderation, of course).

BrushJockey - I've been in this god-forsaken business a long time - and I'm pretty familiar with the composition of paint - but what waterborne paint doesn't contain water? The very definition of a waterborne product is that the resin is "borne" in water...and that water is part of the vehicle that keeps the solid portions of a coating in suspension. I am familiar with some solvent borne products that clean up with water (none that I can think of that reduces with water though).

OK, back to htabbas, in answer to your question - don't worry, I doubt seriously if this quack dumped enough toxic element into your yard to even kill the grass, let alone migrate 15' to your garden and have any effect. BUT, even though the practice is relatively harmless, it's not the best, nor most responsible way of cleaning tools.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Brushjockey said:


> say what?
> 
> Dude- you do need to do a little research into what goes into paint.
> Some " waterbornes" actually contain no water... but can be reduced by water..
> ...


Dude- perhaps you should read a can. Any can...
I am very well aware what latex paint is made of. There are only a few parts. Water is one part. Latex dries through evaporation. Yes, it can be reduced with water, usually no more than 10%, because there is already water in it. What I'm saying is that, latex is not hazardous and washing some brushes out in a yard will not harm vegetation, as the paint contains some water already and is further diluted through washing the brushes.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

htabbas said:


> It's probably a newbee question. But where do you wash your paint brush? I just realized that my contractor has been washing their paint brushes in my backyard. :furious: I have a veggie garden about 15 ft from the dumping site. How toxic is paint waste? Most of it are latex interior water-based paints. Some are stucco paint.
> 
> Thanks!


Lots of opinions here, obviously. Personally I can't imagine that you're going to have a problem. Soil is an amazing purifier.

On the other hand, you might want to consider having your soil tested. There are a lot of ways to do that -everything from DIY to high-end professional.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok Ric, I haven't walked into the workroom to read a can, any can- but let me throw a couple that i think are suspect in low water- high resin and other assorted weirdness-
Gardz. 
Zar Ultramax 
( ok - these aren't latex PAINTs, but they are waterborne finishes or primers..)
hmm...
What are acrylic resins? water? When a paint has high solid contents- is that like 5% ?
When I have had some very old paint cans totally dry out to the point that it is just a lump of hard stuff and even pulled away from the sides of the can- I would say in volume there is 1/2-2/3 the total volume left. And non of that is water.

And the subject of cleaning equipment came up a bit ago in a different thread- I think it was about what was safe for a septic system- and I was amazed at the amount of professional painters that regularly clean out in the yard with a hose. 
Maybe its because i'm from an urban area and I would fire myself if i turned the lawn white, but it seems like a pretty un-pro practice. 
But the health issue is different than the professionalism. 
I stand aside for the more chemically inclined!


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## Windows (Feb 22, 2010)

Look at the MSDS for Zar Ultramax. http://www.ugl.com/zarWoodFinishing/zarInteriorPolyurethane/zarUltraMax.php
It is 60% water by volume. 30% is the acrylic resin and the remaining 10% are the various dryers, binders, extenders and whatever else is needed to make the paint work. 

This EDS from Sherwin Williams 
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/EDS/en/035777440223/
indicates that just 1.7% by volume of a can of water borne Duration is made up of volatile organics. 

My personal thought is that it is not a big deal to clean brushes on lawns. I would rather let the ground do the filtering than use up capacity at the treatment center. 15 feet from the veggie garden though... I might be ok with that, but certainly no closer, and certainly not more than a a couple of times.

People routinely dump herbicides, pesticides, and petrochemical fertilizers on their lawns and in their gardens, many of which are extremely toxic to humans, and hardly anyone thinks twice about that.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Brushjockey said:
> 
> 
> > Who , me? I am, and I know that there is more than water in latex paint....
> ...


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

will you be alright if your painting contractor cleans his equipment on your lawn? yea probably:001_unsure:. but you know what ,i really don't know . one thing i do know is i would not do it, and i don't think its professional:no: ,a friend of mine who is also a painting contractor does all the time . i just look at him and shake my head and roll my eyes.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Windows said:


> Look at the MSDS for Zar Ultramax. http://www.ugl.com/zarWoodFinishing/zarInteriorPolyurethane/zarUltraMax.php
> It is 60% water by volume. 30% is the acrylic resin and the remaining 10% are the various dryers, binders, extenders and whatever else is needed to make the paint work.
> 
> This EDS from Sherwin Williams
> ...


You're right about that windows. But you're wrong to say that no one thinks about it. There's a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico from all those farm chemicals that wash out of the midwest into the Mississippi River and deposit in the Gulf. I would say that with the zeal that government is going after that kind of stuff, that someone in Washington D.C. is thinking about it as well. Uncle Regulator will be dealing with that in due time. VOC's and painters were just next on the list.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> Ok Ric, I haven't walked into the workroom to read a can, any can- but let me throw a couple that i think are suspect in low water- high resin and other assorted weirdness-
> Gardz.
> Zar Ultramax
> ( ok - these aren't latex PAINTs, but they are waterborne finishes or primers..)
> ...


Hiya BrushJockey...

I can't say I'm all that familiar with Gardz, and I'm really just too lazy to research it, but Zar UltraMax is a water-borne, oil modified, urethane coating (which happens to be an acrylic urethane)...This particular product is an actual oil based product, borne in water (water thinned, water clean up) - sufficiently confused yet? No? Well, then in answer to your other question "what are acrylic resins?" - Acrylics may be either water-borne or solvent-borne. House & Wall paints are obvious examples of water-borne acrylics, while many concrete stains, automotive finishes, and some industrial finishes are examples of solvent-borne acrylics....

If I understood your other comment about dried contents in a can, paint components are measured by two different means - specific component by volume, or specific component by weight. When you see the dried remains of paint in a can, you see volume. When you speak of Dry Film Thickness, you're describing volume measurement (example: a 50% solids product applied at 4 mils wet produce a dry film thickness of 2 mils...a 25% solids product applied at 4 mils wet will yield 1 mil DFT and so on...) - BUT - when compared to a specific component by weight, it's often times a completely different result. If you see the remains of hardened paint in a can, you're essentially looking at a DFT...but at 50% solids, shouldn't the can be only 1/2 full instead of 2/3 full? (your example) - When measuring by weight (and this is all theoretical, of course) what remains dried in the can of a 50% solids product, is equal, in weight, to the solvent that once occupied the other 1/3 of that can...

Still awake? Sorry, I bore the sh#t out of myself at times, too. Anyway, we've gotten a tad bit away from topic here, and poor htabbas was just simply wondering if his green peppers were gonna have a slight latex taste to 'em. You're OK, ht...no problems.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Lets just say that washing brushes out in the lawn is just wrong and move on.:whistling2:


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

SAND is a desert topping, whipped cream is a better DESSERT topping.

DM


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

We all should be less casual about where we clean brushes and things. And even the best of soil has only so much ability to deal with things that are alien and do not belong. And things added tend to get leached rather than filtered. 

Will washing out latex paint in the back yard hurt you? I doubt it. Every state in this country has a State level EPA or waste authority. Call and ask them to be sure. 

Professionally, I think it is totally tacky for a pro to work this way and would never do it on a client site.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

sdsester said:


> We all should be less casual about where we clean brushes and things. And even the best of soil has only so much ability to deal with things that are alien and do not belong. And things added tend to get leached rather than filtered.
> 
> Will washing out latex paint in the back yard hurt you? I doubt it. Every state in this country has a State level EPA or waste authority. Call and ask them to be sure.
> 
> Professionally, I think it is totally tacky for a pro to work this way and would never do it on a client site.


I don't even use a clients sink to wash brushes,:no: they go home with me.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

chrisn said:


> I don't even use a clients sink to wash brushes,:no: they go home with me.


Nice bubba!:thumbsup:


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