# Changing one switch in a 3 way circuit to a Lutron motion sensing switch



## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

HOLD ON!! You are way ahead of yourself. What you want to do requires no testing. Just go and buy a 3 way occupancy switch. Wire it as shown in the directions by identifying ONLY the wires involved. Read the instructions and follow them. The switch should be able to be installed at either location. Don't over think this.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Sounds like your power source is at one of the fixtures.. You do not have a neutral at either one of the switches. You will need a sensor that does not require a neutral. From the documents it appears the one you have chosen should work.

It appears this is the one you have.










The instruction show a wiring diagram for three way operation. You are going to have to find which fixture has the power source and rewire there as well as each switch get it to match the diagram in the instructions.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Here is a diagram that should work. Switch one is the sensor. Addition fixtures not shown but they will simply connect the white a black of the fixture shown.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

It could also be the dead end switch of a dead end 3-way.


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## watson524 (Dec 1, 2014)

Ok maybe I'm confused. If the lights are off and I disconnected switch 1 with the breaker on, and got 120v on the red wire that was on the common screw on switch 1, wouldn't that mean that's the power from the breaker? Or are you saying no because it's passing through the light and the light isn't on because the switch is out of the mix and not making a full circuit back to the light? PITA if power is up at the light. With 6 lights, any good way to guess without taking them apart?

I guess if I go to switch box 2 and pull them out and have the breaker on (with switch 1 totally disconnected), if I get 120v on something there than it tells me that power is coming right to that switch from the panel OR as suggested, from the light.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

It can't be OSO954 diagram if there is only one cable at both switches.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

New image with the colours changed. To figure out which light has a power feed, look at the location of the switches. Look where your panel is and try guess which one you would use to route the wires. Then open it and start looking.










If you open the second switch and find a second cable let us know what you find.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

That's the problem, we need an accurate description of what is in the other switch box (or better yet a photo.) 

(JOED, he never pulled the other switch out of the box, he just described the wires on the screws that he could see with the switch in place.)


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## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

Why are you guys getting so in depth about measuring voltages? Remove ANY 3 way switch at either location and replace the switch with the 3 way occupancy switch. No need to measure voltages and rewire anything. The instructions tell you make sure you tag the common wire on the switch when you remove it. Make sure you put the correct wire on the common wire removed from the switch and connect the 2 remaining wires to the travelers. What is the big deal? No measuring voltages or rewiring. It is a simple change out, JEEZ>>>>>>>


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> It is a simple change out, JEEZ>>>>>


Are you forgetting the required jumper wire to get the other switch to work ?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Occupancy sensors (at least the one speced) do not function like a regular three way with a common and travellers. You have a line, load and trigger wire.


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## watson524 (Dec 1, 2014)

Ok I'll be up at mom's tonite and will try to check things out. Sparky, the issue (as the others have said) is that the other switch gets changed in its wiring per the Lutron directions where there's a jumper vs 3 wires on 3 screws.

I have one of those testers that lets you screw into a socket and then tell what breaker a circuit is on. Is that at all helpful here?


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## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

why not just buy one that is a direct replacement for a 3 way switch and make life easy. you are probably reading the directions to convert it to a single pole which would require a jumper on the other end. The 3 way occupancy switch (Lutron) that I looked up is a simple change out.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Sparky 90.....

Is the *occupancy* switch you are referring operate different than the ones we had to install in my son's in Cali (for energy Title 24)

His still have to be turned on manually, and will time out if there is no occupancy (movement) detected in maybe ten minutes.

I believe OP wants a *motion sensor*, that will go on automatically with his Mom opening the garage door etc.

Now maybe there is a direct three way replacement motion sensor switch... that works regardless of a neutral or where power is fed to.... obviously that would be easiest for the OP.

Just was not sure your occupancy sensor was what the OP wanted...

Best


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## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

MTN.... Call it whatever you want. Occupancy sensor or motion sensor, makes no difference it is all PIR like an outdoor motion light. No difference. The 3 way (whatever you want to call it) that I saw is a direct replacement for a 3 way switch. I would seek out that type of unit that is a simple direct replacement for the 3 way switch at either of the switch locations.


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## watson524 (Dec 1, 2014)

Sparky, do you happen to have a link?

I didn't get to get into the wiring and take pictures tonite because I have a boiler microbubbler issue to deal with first thing in the morning so I had to check part sizes and all. The fun never ends LOL!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Sparky 90.....
> 
> Is the *occupancy* switch you are referring operate different than the ones we had to install in my son's in Cali (for energy Title 24)
> 
> ...





sparky90 said:


> MTN.... *Call it whatever you want*. *Occupancy sensor or motion sensor*, *makes no difference* it is all *PIR* like an outdoor motion light. No difference. The 3 way (whatever you want to call it) that I saw is a direct replacement for a 3 way switch. I would seek out that type of unit that is a simple direct replacement for the 3 way switch at either of the switch locations.


Sparky90.... 

Not trying to be an a$$, but are you saying an occupancy sensor is the same as a motion sensor....???? You're the electrician.

But I do know my son's required occupancy sensors do not function as I think/perceive the OP wants as his objective.

And I have no idea what *PIR* means.

I too believe finding a simple direct replacement , that accomplishes the OP's objective, is obviously the best solution.


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## watson524 (Dec 1, 2014)

I think PIR = Passive Infrared right?


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

I would remove the switches and have the motion sensor hot all the time. Isn't that the purpose of a motion sensor. Sorry if I am missing something.


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## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

Robpo said:


> I would remove the switches and have the motion sensor hot all the time. Isn't that the purpose of a motion sensor. Sorry if I am missing something.


That is another option. The 3 way system can be rewired such that a remote PIR sensor can be centrally located inside the garage area. A PIR inside a garage will pick up just about any motion. In the case of the OP, when his mother sets off the garage door opener and pulls in the garage with the car, the PIR will set off the garage lights. The PIR has a timer on it and when the timer times out it resets off. Here is what I did in my garage. I used the garage door opener itself. Here is what I did. I wired several simple light bulbs called "keyless" by us electricians in my garage area and connected them to an outside spotlight that shines on my walkway to the house (detached garage). My garage is open so I was easily able to wire all this. I removed the light bulb from the garage door opener and screwed in a socket that excepts a plug. A short piece of rubber cord to a junction box where I transitioned to Romex. Ran the Romex down to the electrical panel area. I set up a rather large electrical box with a small 120v contactor (relay). I brought in the switch leg from the opener light bulb voltage. I brought in a dedicated circuit from the panel, and brought in the switch leg to all the aforementioned lighting system. I wired the primary coil of the contactor relay to the signal voltage coming from the garage door opener bulb. Wired the dedicated circuit to the NC contacts on the relay and the switch leg of the lighting system to the moveable arm contact of the relay. When I drive up to open the garage door with the remote door opener the door opens, sets off the contactor relay and all the interior and exterior lights go on. I have light inside the garage and light outside to see my way inside the house. After abut 2 minutes the garage door opener light bulb signal to the relay shuts down and resets and all the lights go off. A PIR in the garage connected to the light switch system can do the same or is the same as the occupancy switch once it picks up the movement. BTW... an occupancy switch is nothing more than a PIR sensor which picks up motion in the room. Once motion is detected it sets off a timer which keeps the light switch active for a period of time. If no motion is detected for the time out period the switch shuts down. If motion detected it resets the timer. That is how it works.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

sparky90 said:


> A* PIR in the garage connected to the light switch system can do the same or is the same as the occupancy switch* once it picks up the movement. BTW... an occupancy switch is nothing more than a PIR sensor which picks up motion in the room. *Once motion is detected it sets off a timer which keeps the light switch active for a period of time.* If no motion is detected for the time out period the switch shuts down. If motion detected it resets the timer. That is how it works.


Honest Sparky90.... 

My limited experience in Cali makes me think/believe that a motion sensor and an occupancy sensor are distinctly different in function and how they operate,(they may be both PIR's and have timers...but function differently) and are not the same. (That's one reason they have different names.)

A motion sensor detects motion and AUTOMATICALLY goes on...etc

An occupancy sensor must be MANUALLY turned on, and then will time out if further motion is not detected.

I believe the OP definately wants a motion sensor switch for his Mom's application... and not an occupancy sensor.

Plus to me, it only makes sense. Title 24 (energy conservation) in Cali requires OCCUPANCY sensors in certain applications (baths for instance). With that objective, one would not want lights to automatically go on when someone uses the bath during daylight conditions.... as a motion sensor would function (unless it also had a light condition sensor in series as many exterior motion sensors do).

My experience is limited with occupancy sensors.... BUT the occupancy sensors in Cali that we were required to install, must be *manually* turned on (regardless of light conditions).

Perhaps my limited experience with Cali occupancy sensors is different than the rest of the country....??????? 

Best


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Peter:

What you installed in Calif was a vacancy sensor, manual-on, auto-off.
An occupancy sensor is auto-on, auto-off.

Both incorporate motion sensors to function, and often photo sensors.

Oso


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Oso954 said:


> Peter:
> 
> What you installed in Calif was a vacancy sensor, manual-on, auto-off.
> An occupancy sensor is auto-on, auto-off.
> ...


*OSO*.... *THANK YOU for clarrifying that and correcting my misunderstanding*...:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Makes perfect sense...... And Sparky90.... my apologies for my limited experience and confusion....(never installed or even used them except at my son's Cali additions)

I really do not remember the actual labeling on those Cali switches... but for some reason they are commonly called/referred to as occupancy sensors in the area.

I would suppose that a motion sensor than would be equivalent to a occupancy sensor...... would there be any difference. I'm going to look next time and see if there is anything even called a "motion sensor switch"...but I guess if it's an outside light... I guess it might not be called an "occupancy sensor".

ANY way THANKS

Best

Peter


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> but for some reason they are commonly called/referred to as occupancy sensors in the area.


Its like any industry term, people that have really learned it, get it right. People that have just heard a term and think they know what it means, get it wrong.

And the wrongs often outnumber the rights .


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## watson524 (Dec 1, 2014)

Just to close this one out, I got the switch in question and honestly, the instructions in it were a lot easier to deal with than the instructions online but I definitely did have to rewire the second regular switch. I took some notes on what I found with the various wires. The switch I was replacing I'll call SW1. That was in a single gang box by itself. The other switch I didn't replace I'll call SW2 and was in a double gang with a switch that controls an outside light.

In the box for SW1, there was one line of romex coming in - a 12/3. Bare wire went to the green screw on the old switch, red went to the common screw, white went to the top screw above the common and black went to the single screw on the other side. For the switch install, I took the copper and put it with the green and bare wire from the switch. The bottom black wire on the switch to the red, the top black wire on the switch to the black and the blue wire on the switch to the white. Easy enough.

Over in the second box, there were 4 sets of wires coming in, bundles (B) 1, 2, 3 and 4. B1 and B2 were 12/2 and B3 and B4 were 12/3

4 bare coppers from the wall came together and then 2 pigtails, one to each switch. 

B1 Black and B3 Red goes together and then pigtailed to the bottom screw on switch two which is a single pole switch controlling the outside light.

Whites from B1, B2 and B4 went together in a single wire nut in the box.

Black from B2 went to the top of switch 2 controlling the outside light.

White from B3 went to the top right of the 3 way switch above the common screw (traveler)

Black from B3 went to the top left of the 3 way switch which is on the single screw side (traveler)

Red from B4 went to the common screw on the 3 way switch and had a tag marked "Lt" as best I can read. Maybe this is telling me this is power coming from the light.

Black from B4 was capped and tagged as "/ to light" - not sure what that was telling me.

So to re-wire the 3 way switch in that box, I followed the instructions to take the black wire from switch (the one on the single screw side) and the one on the common screw and put those together and then took a pigtail from there back to the common screw. So one of the travelers was taken off the switch and put with the common.

Motion works as expected and I can still manually control the switch with the old switch in the secondary location.

Do that being said, does that confirm that power was coming from the light down?


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## sparky90 (Aug 1, 2014)

Oso954 said:


> Peter:
> 
> What you installed in Calif was a vacancy sensor, manual-on, auto-off.
> An occupancy sensor is auto-on, auto-off.
> ...


Righty-O


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