# I think I ruined the dishwasher



## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Did you check the breaker?

The wire nut your talking about....was it in the dishwasher or on the wall where the cord for the dishwasher connects? I'm assuming the wall because I have never seen a dishwasher wired with NM cable.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

BirdSlapper said:


> so I proceded to use brute strength/ignorance to get it out. I didn't turn off the breaker, unbolt the tops or remove the kick panel. :jester:
> 
> What happened, unbeknownst to me, is the romex connector slipped allowing the wirenuts to come loose and one of the wires melted the wirenut. I'm sure it made contact somewhere it shouldn't have.
> 
> ...


Sigh... brute force is never a grand idea when it comes to appliances, electronics and other items as you now discovered.
I assume you checked the breaker first...
I've had to repair a washer a couple of times over the years and a drier but not a dishwasher.

By not filling with water, do you mean it turns on but it's non functional? in other words are you seeing POWER going to the dishwasher by some part or light on it working, but water is not entering?

There are probably some relays, and of course plenty of wiring to the controls, shorting a wire out as you described could have damaged a wire enough it melted through, so I would carefully inspect every wire in there with the power off at the breaker, and look for burned insulation on all the wiring along their entire lengths and where they connect.

If you don't have the cover, kickplate etc removed, some of them can be a bear to figure out how they are attached/screwed, most seem to have hidden screws or clips. You will have to maybe google your make/model + "opening cabinet" to find a diagram or something for your specific machine.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

ddawg16 said:


> Did you check the breaker?
> 
> The wire nut your talking about....was it in the dishwasher or on the wall where the cord for the dishwasher connects? I'm assuming the wall because I have never seen a dishwasher wired with NM cable.


 Breaker was fine. Dishwasher is on dedicated breaker.
With all looking like it was ready to go, the dishwasher would go into the run cycle and heat up, move around. The only thing absent was the filling of water.

With the kick panel removed, I was able to see that the wire nuts were in the lower right. I haven't fully removed the dishwasher to trace the power cable back. It appears to be hard wired.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Sigh... brute force is never a grand idea when it comes to appliances, electronics and other items as you now discovered.
> I assume you checked the breaker first...
> I've had to repair a washer a couple of times over the years and a drier but not a dishwasher.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't fully inspected all of the wiring. I did replace the wirenut and set the wires back.

I'm left some details out of the story because I may have done them wrong. The last thing I want to do is come in here and act like I know what I'm doing when I'm looking for help. I'm new at this but learning. Anyways, I did check under the float for obstruction, the float switch (breaker off) for correct close/open operation - I believe I got continuety when I should have. 

I didn't see any kinks in the water fill line.

With power on, I got 120v (fill valve) at cycle startup until it was time to fill with water - then it went to zero. Was it supposed to?

A coworker's guess was that it wasn't a bad fill valve, but a bad control board because I fried it? I don't know, but I ordered a new board. Instead of displaying minutes, the board showed a sweeping motion like a clock and didn't fix anything. I figured the board is defective and gave up. We were planning on getting a new/used dishwasher, but it seems like this is (was) not a cheap one.

I guess, I could shut the breaker and water off again and completely remove the unit, look for other affected wiring or kinks in the water hose?


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

The dishwasher is a Kenmore Elite with stainless interior. Model 665.16932000


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

That model is a nice one.....translation...$$$

Just so I understand....if your measuring the voltage going it....120Vac....but the moment a load kicks in....0? 

I'm thinking that the controller board is going to pull little current compared to everything else....the fill valve is going to be about 1/4a (give or take an 1/8th). So, when it kicks in...most of the voltage is dropped across a bad connection.

If it was me.....

I would replace the hard wired connection with a SO cord and install an outlet in the box where the dishwasher currently connects. That way you can disconnect it when you need to.....

I would then take a household iron...and a meter..and plug both in to that new outlet. With the iron on, you should still see at least 115Vac, or, no more than about a 5v drop. 

If the volts goes to 0, you have a more serious problem. If the voltage holds....plug the dishwasher into your new outlet. If it still does not work....time to go shopping.....if it does work....you owe me a beer.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

ddawg16 said:


> That model is a nice one.....translation...$$$
> 
> Just so I understand....if your measuring the voltage going it....120Vac....but the moment a load kicks in....0?
> 
> ...


Hey Dawg,

I never measured voltage going in while the machine prepairs for its cycle. That's a good idea. I'll do that.

I measured voltage at the connection for the inlet valve. It would be 120 and then drop to nothing.

"Voltage dropped across a bad connection" I guess I should remove the unit and look for loose, severed, burned wires.

SO cord? I think I used that for one of my fluorescent lights in the garage, back when I thought only one 8 footer would be good enough. Its black wire with hot, neutral, ground?

Are you sure that there will be a "box" back there? A lot of things around here have been done in a very half ass fashion. Don't even get me started! :whistling2:


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Where do you live? It helps to put your location in your profile...we don't need your address....just general area....like..."South of the border" kind of thing.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

Location added


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

ddawg16 said:


> I have never seen a dishwasher wired with NM cable.


Really? Must be a California thing. I've never seen a dishwasher that wasn't hard wired.


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## hardwareman (Oct 9, 2010)

BirdSlapper said:


> Here's the story, a month ago my wife wanted me to fix the outer cosmetic seal on the dishwasher. I needed access to get in there a bit better, so I proceded to use brute strength/ignorance to get it out. I didn't turn off the breaker, unbolt the tops or remove the kick panel. :jester:
> 
> What happened, unbeknownst to me, is the romex connector slipped allowing the wirenuts to come loose and one of the wires melted the wirenut. I'm sure it made contact somewhere it shouldn't have.
> 
> ...


more than just a little confused here. What is the outer cosmetic seal? Also did you pull the dishwasher?
Anyways as far as I can tell your dishwasher runs but will not fill with water, correct? You say you have 120 volts to the water valve and it still isn't filling, that can mean only two things. Either you turned the supply water off or the water valve is not opening up to let it fill. If you have water supply and voltage to the valve, bad water valve.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

md2lgyk said:


> Really? Must be a California thing. I've never seen a dishwasher that wasn't hard wired.


This is the blurb out of the manual for my dishwasher....sure sounds like they are talking about a plug....not nm...

Why would you want to hardwire the dishwasher? If it was never going to be pulled out....sure....you don't hardwire a dryer....



> After making sure that the voltage and the frequency values for the current in the home
> correspond to those on the rating plate and that the electrical system is sized for the
> maximum voltage on the rating plate, insert the plug into an electrical socket which is
> earthed properly. If the electrical socket to which the appliance must be connected is not
> ...


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Just a thought, did you turn the water off during you man handling the dish washer?


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

hardwareman said:


> more than just a little confused here. What is the outer cosmetic seal? Also did you pull the dishwasher?
> Anyways as far as I can tell your dishwasher runs but will not fill with water, correct? You say you have 120 volts to the water valve and it still isn't filling, that can mean only two things. Either you turned the supply water off or the water valve is not opening up to let it fill. If you have water supply and voltage to the valve, bad water valve.


That's ok, I probably wasn't very clear. With my very limited household appliance skills and from what I can see, there are two sets of seals - an inner and an outer. The inner appears to keep the water in the machine. The outer is pretty chinsey and doesn't seem to be of any use.

I didn't fully pull the dishwasher - just pulled it enough to fix the outer seal. Yes, the dishwasher appears to run but doesn't fill.

There was 120 volts at the fill valve at startup, then it drops to zero during the fill cycle. Should it do that?

I manually just filled it with hot water and I'm running a cycle of dishes to see if they come out clean.

The water supply is open. I'll go ahead and order a fill valve like I should have in the beginning.

Thanks!


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

jbfan said:


> Just a thought, did you turn the water off during you man handling the dish washer?


No :jester:


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Before you order a fill valve, check the resistance with an ohm meter....if you have continuity....then something else is most likely wrong.

Are you saying that you can manually fill it with water and the pump runs? If so, your incoming ac is ok.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

There was no continuety at the fill valve.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

Dishes, pots and silverware are spotless. Water drained out of dishwasher as well.


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## hardwareman (Oct 9, 2010)

replace the fill valve and make sure you fix that melted wire.


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes,I will be inspecting that wire and everything under there fully


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## BirdSlapper (Apr 25, 2013)

All of the wiring was fine. I replaced the copper (compression fitting shot) line with a braided stainless line and one of those slip over turn off faucet deals - pretty slick. Replaced inlet valve and the dishwasher is back in business!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> I'm left some details out of the story because I may have done them wrong. The last thing I want to do is come in here and act like I know what I'm doing when I'm looking for help. I'm new at this but learning.
> 
> A coworker's guess was that it wasn't a bad fill valve, but a bad control board because I fried it? I don't know, but .


Leaving out details can get the wrong answers, but it looks like you have it fixed now I see.
Just to respond to the older text above;

Electronic boards can be damaged real easy, and they can be a bear to try and field test as a DIY'er without equipment, wiring diagrams and specs at least, but one can carefully look the board over to see any obvious burn spots, melted areas, discolorations etc.


Capacitors, resistors, diodes etc can all fail at any time from static electricity, a short, power surge, age, or just from poor construction. One of those components can fail and not show any visible signs of it, so there's always a good chance an electronic board has failed.


The big problem is, many such boards are not sold to the general public to replace, some are proprietary designs and can't be field repaired and can't be taken to a place like Radio Shack to fix them. If the board says it's a copyrighted design and not field repairable or soemthing, you can't even get it repaired by anyone other than the factory or their reps.

I had an RV furnace whose ignitor board failed, I knew the problem, I had the furnace apart on my table, the board out, it had a couple of wires and held on with 4 screws- real rocket science to replace, yet the manufacturer would not sell me the board, I was forced to take it to an RV repair place 90 miles away to pay some joker $75 labor to put in a new board with 4 screws and slide 2 wires on.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

ddawg16 said:


> This is the blurb out of the manual for my dishwasher....sure sounds like they are talking about a plug....not nm...
> 
> Why would you want to hardwire the dishwasher? If it was never going to be pulled out....sure....you don't hardwire a dryer....


The use of the word "earthing" tells me those instructions were written for some foreign country, not the USA. I hardwired my dishwasher because that's what the installation instructions said to do. Obviously, others may be different.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

md2lgyk said:


> The use of the word "earthing" tells me those instructions were written for some foreign country, not the USA.


As we all know, almost everything you buy now is made in CHINA and the instructions are always in some wierd version of Chinglish that makes little sense, which if they asked any ten year old kid could give them corrections!

Some examples from my Chinese scooter owner's manual for laughs:



> Oil change director: it points out when must change engine oil.
> 
> Starting: when engine in operation, do not press down the button to avoid bad effect on engine.
> 
> ...


Just hate doing things that have a "bad effect" on the engine!
I think everyone who operates a motor vehicle knows how the turn signal indicator lights work LOL
Wouldn't want my bike to suddenly rush out unexpectedly!
I don't know about anyone else but I prefer a FANCY place to park, to heck with those _plain places_ they are too boring!


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