# Rheem, Amana, or Carrier



## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm replacing an old Goodman air handler and Payne condenser. Have gotten quotes on the following:

Carrier, 3-ton, 13 seer 25HDC36A003/FB36T00 $3395
Goodman GSX130361 13 seer straight cool $3400
GSZ13036 13 seer Heat Pump $4375
GSZ13036 14 seer Heat Pump $4656
Amana 14, seer, 3-ton straight cool ASX140361/AEPF42061 $4484
Rheem 3-ton, 13 seer HP RPNL-36JAZ/RHLL $3850

The Goodman/Amana all include new lines, and 10yr labor warranty. I'm leaning towards the Rheem but the contractor will use existing lines and flush and vacuum, which I'm concerned about. The 10yr labor warranty in the Goodman price is tempting.

Opinions, recommendations, preference...please advise.


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## Danman5000 (Sep 16, 2011)

Get the goodman, save your dough. If you run the #'s for the price difference vs. savings on the higher seer systems most of the time it takes way too long to pay it off with the savings. Although, those are all very competitive prices:yes:. Don't worry about the line sets, they will be perfectly fine as long as your techs do a good job, and I'm sure they will. Just don't let them charge your for the refrigerant since those condenser units come precharged with at least 95% of the amount you need, often times you have to let a little out... Make sure to ask for a thermostatic expansion valve, they are the way to go and will bump your efficency .5-1 seer(ish). Probably around $70, or just Buy it yourself online. You'll need the tx3n4 for the gsx130361 setup and a boost cap about $40, you'll need the CSR U1. Good luck!


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

The txv I bought today for a CE3 Carrier coil, R-22, was $124.49.

I know Goodman does not sell any units with refrigerant in them, not if they are meant for R-22. I've heard that Trane still did but not sure if any longer. Most if not all are dry charged with nitrogen, if we're talking about R-22.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Ok, now I'm really confused. You're saying go with the Goodman straight cool rather than the heat pump? The Rheem is a heat pump and the least expensive but no labor warranty. The Goodman prices include $375 for a 10 yr. labor warranty except on the GSX130361 @ $3400 is without.

But you think the straight cool is the way to go??


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> I'm replacing an old Goodman air handler and Payne condenser. Have gotten quotes on the following:
> 
> Carrier, 3-ton, 13 seer 25HDC36A003/FB36T00 $3395
> Goodman GSX130361 13 seer straight cool $3400
> ...


 
If you live up north and use heat half of the year than a heat pump will be the way to go, savings wise. 

Amana which is the upgraded version of Goodman (same company) if the compressor fails under ther warranty you get an entire new condensing unit. 14 seer and above. I'm not sure about the heat pumps, you may want to ask the guy who quoted you on the Goodman.

Install trumps brand any day.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> Ok, now I'm really confused. You're saying go with the Goodman straight cool rather than the heat pump? The Rheem is a heat pump and the least expensive but no labor warranty. The Goodman prices include $375 for a 10 yr. labor warranty except on the GSX130361 @ $3400 is without.
> 
> But you think the straight cool is the way to go??


Where do you live, what state and how often do you expect you will be using heat?


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

and what's your back up/emergency heat going to be, electric, gas?


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

I live in Central Florida. Heat will be electric 10KW backup with heat pump or straight cool. With current system it's been 15KW electric. It's brutally hot here!

Both contractors have A+ BBB ratings. The Rheem contractor has been in business since 1974 and has an A on Angie's List and the Goodman/Amana has an A+ BBB rating, and got a service award from Angie's List. Both have very good reputations. The Rheem contractor is the one who is going to use the existing lines. They were replaced in 2003.

The Goodman contractor will install new lines.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Don't go with the straight cool unit. Your house is not designed for cold weather (I live in orlando). The money you save on the unit, will be given to progress energy for running the strips. What contractors are proposing the install?


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

I live in Orlando too. House was built in 1957. Lines were replaced in 2003. Contractor's I have quotes from are:

Libby Twins/Rheem
Mills Air/Carrier
Gembecki Mechanical/Goodman

I have OUC.

Oh...can someone tell me how to disable the condenser so that when I turn on the breaker it doesn't run? The breaker the condenser is on is the same breaker my irrigation system is on. My yard is dry as a bone and I just noticed the problem. Please help.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I would lean towards the mills air. You could also call del-air and get a quote. That's probably going to be the best bang for the buck. I have a couple of friends that work there. They will stand behind their work. Nost importantly, you need to buy the 10 year parts and labor warranty. Not just 10 year parts..the labor is what will get you. Txv cost is $85..replacing it is $350..see where im going?

To disable the condenser turn the breaker off that goes to the air handler. Its going to be the 90-100 amp breaker in the top of the box. That will stop the condenser from running. The condenser will still be energized, so use due caution.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Why Mills Air? They are Carrier and they have had some issues in the reviews I've read. Gembecki also, but all still have good ratings w/BBB. Libby Twins has been in business in Orlando since 1973. Mr. Libby is the one who came out to give me quote. He was in work clothes, so that kind of impressed me. An owner who still works.

Do you have a brand preference?

I know to turn off the breaker, but my irrigation is hooked up to same breaker. So when it's turned off the irrigation won't run. Any way to disable the condenser without turning off the breaker?


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't have a brand preference. The system needs to be installed properly, brand is the least important part of this deal. I don't know what your main goal here is, weather its price, quality or service after the sale. To be honest, I would be scared to death of a $4000 install. I don't work in the residential field so I don't know how healthy the install market is. But after buying the equipment and paying two guys to install a system to pass code, I wonder what your not going to get for that kind of money.
Not trying to scare you or anything, I haven't seen the job and cant affirm anything at this point..


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Don't understand....you're saying that the price is low?? I want a quality job bar none. What do you think I should be paying for a 14 seer, heat pump? Someone on this thread said not to worry about keeping the existing lines as long as they are cleaned properly. I can't afford to pay $4,000 and have problems down the line. I do have a home warranty that will cover any repairs.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> Don't understand....you're saying that the price is low?? I want a quality job bar none. What do you think I should be paying for a 14 seer, heat pump? Someone on this thread said not to worry about keeping the existing lines as long as they are cleaned properly. I can't afford to pay $4,000 and have problems down the line. I do have a home warranty that will cover any repairs.


I'm on my cell and find it difficult totype pr9prly but i do a lodepet of home warranty hvac work. It depends on your line of coverage what's covered. Ill beback to talk in depth..
Did you çash 9ut or why are you paying now


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

If this was me, in your shoes. I would call Wesson air, Heinmiller (not Bob Heinmiller), and Del air.
I did residential work for a year. I never once worked on a wesson install. Their customers don't call anyone else, they are happy. I was very impressed at the new construction installs that heinmiller did. Most new construction install is wham bam thank you ma'am work, this was the best that I had seen. That's why they have been around since the 1940's, and del-air has some very very good retail replacement installers. Very nice work, the catch is getting a good service tech out not just a guy with tools. 
I would drop that home warranty as fast as I could. Companies that sign on with home warranty providers have usually lost a big chunk of their customer base and need these calls to stay in business. It is impossible to pay a good technician market wages, with what the home warranty pays. Get the 10 year part and labor warranty. Put the money you would have given the warranty company in savings and use it for necessary repairs. If in doubt go to ripoff report and look up your home warranty company.

If you decide to call for another estimate, tell the salesman you don't need the presentation. What you want is the quality install, without the shortcuts, at a fair price.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Oh, there's doc, the warranty guy 
No offence to you Doc, your company doesn't seem to be the norm.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Yes, I did cash out. Didn't get a lot but it will pay a little less than half of new system. The contractor I'm about to go with does not offer a labor warranty but he's given me a good price on a 14 seer Rheem heat-pump. He's been in Orlando since 1974 and has good reviews. My dad used him in his construction business back in the 70's. He's not big on the warranties--a bit old school, maybe. That's the only thing that bothers me is not having a labor warranty. I do have my home warranty but it keeps going up in price.

I guess I'm going to make some more calls for estimates. He assures me that he will have his best tech do the install who has been with him for 25 years.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Ask him if the Rheem is on demand defrost? 

The goodman/Amana's aren't, they do a lot of waste defrost.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Doesn't matter around here. Your going to hit the 90 minute default time anyway.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Master of Cold said:


> Doesn't matter around here. Your going to hit the 90 minute default time anyway.


On demand doesn't defrost by time. Could be 6 hours of compressor run time before it goes into a defrost, with an on demand defrost board. Instead of just 90 minutes of compressor run time like on the Goodman/Amanas.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I think this depends on the manufacturer of the unit. But from what I remember there is a fail safe on some models in case the freeze stat fails.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Master of Cold said:


> Oh, there's doc, the warranty guy
> No offence to you Doc, your company doesn't seem to be the norm.


Eh. I'm new to it as well. My boss has over 20 years home warranty, though.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Master of Cold said:


> I think this depends on the manufacturer of the unit. But from what I remember there is a fail safe on some models in case the freeze stat fails.


Yes, some have a default time if the defrost sensor fails. They all have a 6 hour compressor run time defrost to make sure the outdoor coil isn't oil logged. When the outdoor temp is below X degrees(varies with manufacturer). The elimination of waste defrost cycles pays for itself very quickly.

I've had very few defrost sensor problems with on demand defrost units.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Ok, guys...you've lost me. I'm a woman trying to decipher all this stuff so go easy on me. Why do I need to be concerned about "demand defrost"? What is it and its' importance?

Are there any good home warranty companies out there? Please share names. Mine is on the ripoffreports but so far I've had little problem with them. Knock on wood....


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Your defrost cycle is when its running in the cold weather and hear the "whoosh" sound. This is the unit going into the cooling mode. Its a necessary function in times when the outside coil is cold enough to build up frost. A demand defrost unit will only perform this when necessary. A non demand, or timed defrost will do it after a pre determined time. The demand defrost saves money by not defrosting if you don't need it.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

Didn't mean to play the "gender" or "dumb blonde" card. I've learned a lot about a/c in the last 2 weeks. Thank God I have a computer! I just want to make a good decision and get the best deal/equipment. Thanks for the help!:yes:


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Don't worry..Beenthere is a dumb blonde chick too!


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

Haaaa--I apologize to all the blondes out there. :huh:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Master of Cold said:


> Don't worry..Beenthere is a dumb blonde chick too!



I think you need glasses Joe.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> Yes, I did cash out. Didn't get a lot but it will pay a little less than half of new system. The contractor I'm about to go with does not offer a labor warranty but he's given me a good price on a 14 seer Rheem heat-pump. He's been in Orlando since 1974 and has good reviews. My dad used him in his construction business back in the 70's. He's not big on the warranties--a bit old school, maybe. That's the only thing that bothers me is not having a labor warranty. I do have my home warranty but it keeps going up in price.
> 
> I guess I'm going to make some more calls for estimates. He assures me that he will have his best tech do the install who has been with him for 25 years.


If the install is good then labor is the last of your worries.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Not if the coil springs a leak, compressor dies etc., etc,etc..


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

I do have a home warranty--deductible $60. So, at least I have something.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

Ok, so Doc what are you talking about as far as home warranty? Do you work for a home warranty company or someone who does repairs for them?

Master of Cold...do you know anything about Libby Twins? They've been in Orlando since 1974. They did work for my dad and brother who were homebuilders at the time. I've looked all thru reviews and the BBB and everything I've found is good. They have A+ rating on BBB and Angie's List. I think Mr. Libby gave me a great price because he knew my dad and brother. I had another contractor give me a price of $4800 on the same equipment. Rheem, 14 seer heat-pump out of the Classic series with RHLL air handler.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I look at it this way. You are charged every year for warranty coverage on the a/c, and then a deductible for every visit. The part and labor warranty is a one time fee, with no deductible. Everything is covered. Your warranty costs do not increase every year.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't know the libby twins personally or ever did any work for them. It just strikes me as odd that they have a fleet of beat up trucks running around. To me that does not show a sign of success with your customer base. Im not going to knock his business model. He has survived for many years. He may in fact do a great job. But if I were a business owner, I would not sell equipment that does not offer a labor warranty.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

The 2 contractors I've spoken with about Rheem don't offer a labor warranty. They told me I can get a labor warranty but it's thru a 3rd party company and expensive...between $400-800.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Don't ask me, apparently my company is not the "norm." I wonder how it is we stay in business, we have no idea what we're doing. What's an air conditioner? Anyone? :wink:

My company does work for home warranty companies: Old Republic, First American and Cross Country.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> Don't ask me, apparently my company is not the "norm." I wonder how it is we stay in business, we have no idea what we're doing. What's an air conditioner? Anyone? :wink:
> 
> My company does work for home warranty companies: Old Republic, First American and Cross Country.


Most companies provide the major tools and a company vehicle. Your providing your own vehicle, cuts a lot of cost from the company.


Many companies won't cut corners either. They pull the proper vacuum. Not just vacuum for an hour and charge it up.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

No one is going to tell me what and air conditioner is? Sheesh, no respect. 

Howsabout that big metal round thing that spins and goes round and round and round and round and makes a "whooshing" sound? I think it's located inside and outside and again, goes "whoosh." I makes me cold, Masterfully cold that it. :wink:


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Most companies provide the major tools and a company vehicle. Your providing your own vehicle, cuts a lot of cost from the company.
> 
> 
> Many companies won't cut corners either. They pull the proper vacuum. Not just vacuum for an hour and charge it up.


 
You're not telling me anything I don' know, BT. I've worked with over 10 companies and had company provided vehicles and tools many times over. I prefer providing my own tools as I can take care of them.

I'm not certain what you'r getting at with "proper vacuum".


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> You're not telling me anything I don' know, BT. I've worked with over 10 companies and had company provided vehicles and tools many times over. I prefer providing my own tools as I can take care of them.
> 
> I'm not certain what you'r getting at with "proper vacuum".


In another post, you said you didn't have time to pull a proper vacuum(they weren't paying for more then X amount of work). Also said something about not doing the filters correctly.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Joe, you hit the wrong button.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Most companies provide the major tools and a company vehicle. Your providing your own vehicle, cuts a lot of cost from the company.
> 
> 
> Many companies won't cut corners either. They pull the proper vacuum. Not just vacuum for an hour and charge it up.


 
Not in home insurance work, they don't. You are only alotted so much time (30 minutes) to diagnose the situation and are only alloted an hour to repair. 

It is a hassle getting paid for proper work with these companies, getting authorization, etc. Too Many "kills" and they don't send you work.

It is a slippery slope for sure.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

cappy1326 said:


> The 2 contractors I've spoken with about Rheem don't offer a labor warranty. They told me I can get a labor warranty but it's thru a 3rd party company and expensive...between $400-800.


Most labor warranties are through a third party. But they pay for OEM parts, and don't ask the contractor to look for cheaper after market parts.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> Not in home insurance work, they don't. You are only alotted so much time (30 minutes) to diagnose the situation and are only alloted an hour to repair.
> 
> It is a hassle getting paid for proper work with these companies, getting authorization, etc. Too Many "kills" and they don't send you work.
> 
> It is a slippery slope for sure.


Thats why many companies won't do the work. They aren't allowed to do it properly. The warranty companies expects you to do it by cutting corners.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

They expect us to do it right _*without*_ cutting corners and do it all within one hour, is it. We can only bill out for that hour. If the work takes (is going to take) longer than we have to call field services to get authorization so we can bill out for more money/labor/time/material. Getting in touch with those guys is a joke. They never call us back.


Jeez, I need a new job.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

take this for example, furr down with a bad evporator motor. I pulled the entire assemply off of the unit and brought it home. I'm going to install the new motor here in a bit and just slap the entire assembly back in tomorrow. I've been to this residence twice already and had to drive to the supply house to pick up this motor. 

I'll get paid all of $30 for all of it and it's taken me some three hours now plus gas over the course of three days, and the job isn't even complee yet. More gas and time tomorrow. My boss will have to haggle with the warranty company to get som more money to pay me some more, and he will. I'll probably recieve a buck to a buck and a half.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

So, Doc...are you telling me to cancel my home warranty? I should just pay more up front for a labor warranty and forget the other? I hate buying a new a/c. It's worse than buying a car. You never know who you can trust. It sounds as though why would any company install a "perfect" system because aren't they wanting you to have to pay for repairs down the road?


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> So, Doc...are you telling me to cancel my home warranty? I should just pay more up front for a labor warranty and forget the other? I hate buying a new a/c. It's worse than buying a car. You never know who you can trust. It sounds as though why would any company install a "perfect" system because aren't they wanting you to have to pay for repairs down the road?


 
No, I'm not telling you to cancel your warranty. I've seen it provide some good.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Joe, you hit the wrong button.


Seems like I have heard before..right before the explosion.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> They expect us to do it right _*without*_ cutting corners and do it all within one hour, is it. We can only bill out for that hour. If the work takes (is going to take) longer than we have to call field services to get authorization so we can bill out for more money/labor/time/material. Getting in touch with those guys is a joke. They never call us back.
> 
> 
> Jeez, I need a new job.


No, they don't expect you to do it right. they expect you to cut corners, and do it just good enough.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> take this for example, furr down with a bad evporator motor. I pulled the entire assemply off of the unit and brought it home. I'm going to install the new motor here in a bit and just slap the entire assembly back in tomorrow. I've been to this residence twice already and had to drive to the supply house to pick up this motor.
> 
> I'll get paid all of $30 for all of it and it's taken me some three hours now plus gas over the course of three days, and the job isn't even complee yet. More gas and time tomorrow. My boss will have to haggle with the warranty company to get som more money to pay me some more, and he will. I'll probably recieve a buck to a buck and a half.


First Company. they are a pain to work on.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

cappy1326 said:


> So, Doc...are you telling me to cancel my home warranty? I should just pay more up front for a labor warranty and forget the other? I hate buying a new a/c. It's worse than buying a car. You never know who you can trust. It sounds as though why would any company install a "perfect" system because aren't they wanting you to have to pay for repairs down the road?


Keep the warranty. it covers more then just the A/C.

Actually, we don't want your A/C to break down. We want you to have us service it every year. An for it to work with out breaking down.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

beenthere said:


> No, they don't expect you to do it right. they expect you to cut corners, and do it just good enough.


That's what they get, just good enough but it's kind of hard to screw up a capacitor replacement. :wink:

We do line set flushes and the likes but most of those are out of customer's pocket.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

She can drop the a/c coverage of the warranty and save a lot of money.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

RPNL-036JAZ
RHLLHM36173a

Is this the correct air handler #? I can't find it on the Rheem specs online. We were told this air handler would give us 14.5 seer. I don't quite understand because the compressor is 13 seer? Please explain.

What should I be aware of or checking to make sure is done right when I have this new install done? The existing lines are going to be used. How do I know the lines are flushed and vacuumed properly? List the things that guarantee a good install. I am going to be watching like a hawk.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

cappy1326 said:


> RPNL-036JAZ
> RHLLHM36173a
> 
> Is this the correct air handler #? I can't find it on the Rheem specs online. We were told this air handler would give us 14.5 seer. I don't quite understand because the compressor is 13 seer? Please explain.
> ...


Watching like a hawk is one thing that can hinder a good instal. 

Offering coffee, tea, or other non alcoholic beverages is a good thing.

If the air handle is in the attic, then it should be blown from the inside out.
Nitrogen should be flowed while brazing.
A vacuum should be pulled and checked by use of a micron gauge.

The air handler should have a second drain pan under it, if its in a place that could be damaged by water over flow if the main drain fails. All duct connections to it should be sealed with a mastic, or a mastic tape. 

The refrigerant charge should be added to or removed by scale based on the manufacturers charging instructions.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

The air handler is inside and I have hardwood floors. Ok, I won't watch like a hawk and beverages I can handle.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Is your unit on a stand, that being if you were to lie on the floor you could look up into the unit. Or is on a sheetrock/plywood base?


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

I am so confused I'm sick. I had a guy from Am Air & Heat give me a quote today. He did a heat load calculation and says I need a 2.5 ton. Since this house first got a/c in the 60's it has had a 3-ton unit. My house is about 1650 sq ft. He swears heat loads do not lie and the facts stand behind them.

He quote me on the following:
Amana Distinctions -13 seer straight cool
GSX130301B/ARUF183116B
New lines, new plenums, new ductwork to 2 bedrooms, 10 yr P&L, free lifetime maintenance $4956

Amana Distinctions - 13 seer HP
GSZ130301A/ARUF193116B 
Same services $5424

Then after he left another independent small contractor came and said no way will a 2.5 ton cool my house. He didn't do any calculations, but did check all the air flow and agreed that the 2 bedrooms need the ductwork to be re-routed and the returns to be enlarged. He got in the attic and checked the ductwork. 

He will install 3-ton Rheem 15 seer straight cool with all the above except the labor warranty for $4200 and the heat pump for $5000.

What to do??? My husband just doesn't believe the 2.5 ton will cool our house. We have an open room off the kitchen (200sf) that is cooled by a mini-split, but we do not run it all the time. Will that room affect the 2.5 ton?


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

I would stick with the 3 ton. The block walls absorb a lot of heat. I know most of the homes in your area that I have sized were running 3 to 3.5 tons. The one aspect of the heat load calculation that is not factored in, is the distance of the roof deck to the ceiling. But that's a discussion for another day.
The american air and heat guy pulled a sales tactic of resizing your system to knock off the other quote. Its sort of a fear tactic, and is used to confuse the buyer.
I believe in doing a heat load, but I also have to look at the fact that you have had a 3 ton for many years, and will expect the same performance out of a new system.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Master of Cold--do you own your own company or do you work for someone? Who? Why don't you install my system for me? 

I want to spend under $5K and have a labor warranty, and a realiable brand. I'm on overload and my husband is about to divorce me--he just want air!!

It's not like I have money to spare and $5K is a lot to me.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Here is what you do..
Call del-air and have them give you an estimate. They will give you three options. They will give you 364 days to purchase the extended warranty. Let me know which option that you like. I know their pricing structure and will give you the info to make the counter offer. Which can be money off, warranty included, or a little of both.

I work for a commercial company. We don't deal with a whole lot of equipment under 20 tons. You probably wouldn't like our price...


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

I went to a two story 4500 square ft home today, about 25 years old. One 5 ton system is cooling that. If just going by an old "rule of thumb" and 500 sq ft per one ton than that's phenominal. If going by todays standard "rule of thumb" (higher efficiency systems) of 600 sq ft per one ton than a five ton should still only cover 3000 sq ft, not 4500. 

He says his system has been working extremely well and he has much lower light bills, one year old system, 14 seer 410-a.

In Dallas there is a guy with a 2 ton system cooling his 4000 sq ft home, but he's an hvac tech and performed a heat load analysis and fine fined his envelope, I'm sure.

Of course no rule of thumb actually applies in how to size a system, they're just distinctions from observaions over time but not good in scientifically sizing a system by any means.

BT knows the guy better than I do, or of him.

Don't dismiss that guy just yet, just get to the bottom of how he came to his conclusion. If he's worth his weight in refrigerant than he'll have no problem showing you.

Good luck.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Be patient with me Master...cause I am so burnt out I can't think. What do you mean they will give me 3 options? I don't think I want Goodman/Amana...what other brands should I look at? My husband likes the Rheem. If you can help me out and guide me on this I will give you as tickets to Universal. My husband works there.

I'd really like to go with the little guy, but when I say little--it's only him and a helper. Now, his reputation is impeccable but I'm concerned that he's too small and no labor warranty scares me.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Doc--I could agree with that if I had upgraded insulation, maybe window tinting. He's telling me that if one night the air seems fine and then the next it's hot, or I'm getting up in the night turning down the thermostat a degree or so, then I have too much humidity in the house and a 3-ton is too much. It's not taking the humidity out and that's why I'm having to turn it up and down. He says I should be able to keep it at 75 all the time and it will run more efficiently. I turn it up during the day to 80 and then at night I turn it down to 76. The reason I do that is because otherwise my elect bill is $255+ just for electric.

If I just go from an old 10 seer to even a 13 seer I should see an improvement, right?


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Just curious ..... you always investigate for any service like this? car mechanical, doctor????????? .........get your AC from Sears


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> Doc--I could agree with that if I had upgraded insulation, maybe window tinting. He's telling me that if one night the air seems fine and then the next it's hot, or I'm getting up in the night turning down the thermostat a degree or so, then I have too much humidity in the house and a 3-ton is too much. It's not taking the humidity out and that's why I'm having to turn it up and down. He says I should be able to keep it at 75 all the time and it will run more efficiently. I turn it up during the day to 80 and then at night I turn it down to 76. The reason I do that is because otherwise my elect bill is $255+ just for electric.
> 
> If I just go from an old 10 seer to even a 13 seer I should see an improvement, right?


 
I like that guy already, he knows his heat intensity and he is absolutely correct. Going from a 10 seer to a 13 will reduce your spending and seriously increase your comfort with a slightly if at all longer running system. 

The guy who performed the heat load is the guy I'd go with, but that's just me.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

JJboy said:


> Just curious ..... you always investigate for any service like this? car mechanical, doctor????????? .........get your AC from Sears


 
JJboy, on a another forum the threads form home owners can get into the hundreds of pages long. This is nothing and I think a well informed customer makes for a better relationship for all of us. Get one hack doing hack work who messes up and the home owner didn't know anything as he/she did not ask anything and all hvac techs are suddenly felons.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Yes, I'm afraid I do investigate to the extreme. If I had thousands of dollars and money was no worry, it would be different. I'm disabled and don't work. Two car accidents, etc. etc. So, I'm a one income family and this is the first complete system we've purchased in 8 years. Can't afford to do it again in another 8. Need to get it right. 

It is driving my husband mad though and I need to get it done soon! Master of Cool--I really hope you can help me.

Why do you suggest Sears?


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

They will give you 3 price options based on efficiency.

I was a salesman for a few years. I know that the reason that you did not buy from anyone is that you have not been given enough information to make a decision on buying this equipment. Its also apparent that you don't know whom to trust in this deal. To a lot of contractors this just another box to put in a house. You on the other hand are looking a a major purchase decision. This is the 3rd largest transaction that most people make, behind the house and a car. I have been stressing the labor warranty as a means of financial protection. I and many others on this forum make a living repairing this equipment. That money has to come from somewhere. I have yet to see an old unit that has not been repaired.

As far as the equipment goes, most of it is the same performance wise. A 3 ton is a 3 ton, doesn't matter if its Rheem Trane or Carrier. Companies that install the lower tier brands are usually not the ones that will put a lot of money into the install. This is not true of all companies, but for a vast majority its a way of life. This is your home, and your largest investment. You have proven due diligence in protecting what's yours. And yes it is frustrating. Lots of different opinions, equipment and companies, as well as a nagging husband. But hang in there and this will all come to an end very soon. Let's get that quote for the equipment, make a counter offer and get it installed. We can worry about duct work and labor warranty in a couple of months.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

cappy1326 said:


> Yes, I'm afraid I do investigate to the extreme. If I had thousands of dollars and money was no worry, it would be different. I'm disabled and don't work. Two car accidents, etc. etc. So, I'm a one income family and this is the first complete system we've purchased in 8 years. Can't afford to do it again in another 8. Need to get it right.
> 
> It is driving my husband mad though and I need to get it done soon! Master of Cool--I really hope you can help me.
> 
> Why do you suggest Sears?


You're looking for a big name.....


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Master of Cold said:


> They will give you 3 price options based on efficiency.
> 
> I was a salesman for a few years. I know that the reason that you did not buy from anyone is that you have not been given enough information to make a decision on buying this equipment. Its also apparent that you don't know whom to trust in this deal. To a lot of contractors this just another box to put in a house. You on the other hand are looking a a major purchase decision. This is the 3rd largest transaction that most people make, behind the house and a car. I have been stressing the labor warranty as a means of financial protection. I and many others on this forum make a living repairing this equipment. That money has to come from somewhere. I have yet to see an old unit that has not been repaired.
> 
> As far as the equipment goes, most of it is the same performance wise. A 3 ton is a 3 ton, doesn't matter if its Rheem Trane or Carrier. Companies that install the lower tier brands are usually not the ones that will put a lot of money into the install. This is not true of all companies, but for a vast majority its a way of life. This is your home, and your largest investment. You have proven due diligence in protecting what's yours. And yes it is frustrating. Lots of different opinions, equipment and companies, as well as a nagging husband. But hang in there and this will all come to an end very soon. Let's get that quote for the equipment, make a counter offer and get it installed. We can worry about duct work and labor warranty in a couple of months.


 
Spoken like a true salesman. :laughing:


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Rheem, Amana or Carrier*

Master...since the other 2 included the duct work in their quotes my husband will want that done. Don't I want Del-Air to give me an estimate on the duct work and labor? I'll follow what you're telling me but I need to know what to ask for when I talk to them.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Sears = hacks. The low bidder contractor gets the install. My house....no thanks.
Im telling her to stick with the 3 ton because I know the area of town she lives in and the construction of the homes. The homes were not designed with climate control in mind. In fact it probably didnt even have a heating system when it was built. She has larger than normal window area, the roof deck is probably 3 feet from the ceiling. Yielding a summer time temp on the ceiling of 100 degrees. 
Im not trying to say im smarter than anyone else here, or anywhere, but I do have a lot of experience with this particular application. The op also lives in my city so I can help her steer clear of the hacks.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Master of Cold said:


> Sears = hacks. The low bidder contractor gets the install. My house....no thanks.
> Im telling her to stick with the 3 ton because I know the area of town she lives in and the construction of the homes. The homes were not designed with climate control in mind. In fact it probably didnt even have a heating system when it was built. She has larger than normal window area, the roof deck is probably 3 feet from the ceiling. Yielding a summer time temp on the ceiling of 100 degrees.
> Im not trying to say im smarter than anyone else here, or anywhere, but I do have a lot of experience with this particular application. The op also lives in my city so I can help her steer clear of the hacks.



I agree, I'm trying to show her that big name is not always the best option ......


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> I went to a two story 4500 square ft home today, about 25 years old. One 5 ton system is cooling that. If just going by an old "rule of thumb" and 500 sq ft per one ton than that's phenominal. If going by todays standard "rule of thumb" (higher efficiency systems) of 600 sq ft per one ton than a five ton should still only cover 3000 sq ft, not 4500.
> 
> He says his system has been working extremely well and he has much lower light bills, one year old system, 14 seer 410-a.
> 
> ...


Higher efficiency has nothing to do with sizing an A/C. It only means the same amount of capacity cost less to operate.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Higher efficiency has nothing to do with sizing an A/C. It only means the same amount of capacity cost less to operate.


 
true. hows your buddy with the 2 ton and huge home?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

cappy1326 said:


> I am so confused I'm sick. I had a guy from Am Air & Heat give me a quote today. He did a heat load calculation and says I need a 2.5 ton. Since this house first got a/c in the 60's it has had a 3-ton unit. My house is about 1650 sq ft. He swears heat loads do not lie and the facts stand behind them.
> 
> He quote me on the following:
> Amana Distinctions -13 seer straight cool
> ...


My place is 1650 sq ft. Built 1950, and has a 2.5 ton. Which is over sized for my place. When is 98 outside, it maintains 72 inside. 

I didn't do a load calc on your house, nor do i know your area and its construction standards for the different years. Ask the guy that is saying 2.5 tons. If he will put it in writing that if it doesn't cool to X degrees when its X degrees outside that he will remove it and install a 3 ton. 

I've put it in writing already. And never had to pull the smaller unit I installed.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Master of Cold said:


> Sears = hacks. The low bidder contractor gets the install. My house....no thanks.
> Im telling her to stick with the 3 ton because I know the area of town she lives in and the construction of the homes. The homes were not designed with climate control in mind. In fact it probably didnt even have a heating system when it was built. She has larger than normal window area, the roof deck is probably 3 feet from the ceiling. Yielding a summer time temp on the ceiling of 100 degrees.
> Im not trying to say im smarter than anyone else here, or anywhere, but I do have a lot of experience with this particular application. The op also lives in my city so I can help her steer clear of the hacks.


 
I know a company that works for Sears, I wouldn't hire them. He hired me to install a 6 ton package unit a few months ago so he could focus on the Sears calls. I saw his residential work, no thanks.

And then he told me he was preferred company for Sears.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

In other words Sears subcontracts out.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Doc Holliday said:


> true. hows your buddy with the 2 ton and huge home?


Doing fine last I heard. And very happy with the performance of his A/C system.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

cappy1326 said:


> Master...since the other 2 included the duct work in their quotes my husband will want that done. Don't I want Del-Air to give me an estimate on the duct work and labor? I'll follow what you're telling me but I need to know what to ask for when I talk to them.


I would recommend against doing the duct work right now. Changing one part of a flex duct system affects the rest of it. It all has to be sized and installed properly. Just because you put in a larger piece of duct in a run doesn't mean your going to get more air. It means you bought a larger duct.
The duct system needs to be installed as a whole system. If you can put this off until the end of february you will get one heck of a deal. Everyone is starving by then and you will get the job for cost. This is important as the duct systems here are what kills units.
If you can hold off on this then you will be much better off come summer time.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Master of Cold said:


> Sears = hacks. The low bidder contractor gets the install. My house....no thanks.
> Im telling her to stick with the 3 ton because I know the area of town she lives in and the construction of the homes. The homes were not designed with climate control in mind. In fact it probably didnt even have a heating system when it was built. She has larger than normal window area, the roof deck is probably 3 feet from the ceiling. Yielding a summer time temp on the ceiling of 100 degrees.
> Im not trying to say im smarter than anyone else here, or anywhere, but I do have a lot of experience with this particular application. The op also lives in my city so I can help her steer clear of the hacks.


True that and from what I've heard (and I've heard a lot from home owners in Florida) Florida is a breeding grounds for hacks in the hvac biz. If I were there I'd want you on my team as well.


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> In other words Sears subcontracts out.


Yea..they almost lost their home improvement business a number of years ago. An hvac sub hired a convicted rapist as a helper. After the install was finished the ex con came back and raped and killed the lady and her son. Rheem told sears to go fly a kite, and pound sand while they were at it. No more sales to Sears again..


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

Master...you are exactly right. House built in 1958...had no air til parents put it in in the 60's. Has a lot of windows and you can get in the attic. It's more than a crawl space but 100 is no exaggeration. I understand what the load calc is saying and it makes me stop and think, but I'm having a hard time selling to husband. Plus, I think Amana Distinctions is the low end of Goodman--in fact the model #'s starts with G vs A. Rheem has some qualities I like--the Copeland scroll compressor, good consumer rating. I've been looking a the Classic series--a little upgrade from the value line--I think.

I have duct board. I know I can't afford to redo the entire duct system--at anytime soon and I'm kind of defeating the purpose of a new system if I'm still left with 2 hot rooms.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Master of Cold said:


> I would recommend against doing the duct work right now. Changing one part of a flex duct system affects the rest of it. It all has to be sized and installed properly. Just because you put in a larger piece of duct in a run doesn't mean your going to get more air. It means you bought a larger duct.
> The duct system needs to be installed as a whole system. If you can put this off until the end of february you will get one heck of a deal. Everyone is starving by then and you will get the job for cost. This is important as the duct systems here are what kills units.
> If you can hold off on this then you will be much better off come summer time.


People often skip this step and then complain about who installed it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Amana Distinctions is a rebadged Goodman. A true Amana will have a model number that starts with an A.


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## cappy1326 (Sep 17, 2011)

Yep, even the load calc guy said to redo those 2 ducts. Again, I don't have flex duct--it's duct board. I just had it taped and sealed about 1-2 years ago. Load guy said the ducts look tight and free of leaks.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Doc Holliday said:


> True that and from what I've heard (and I've heard a lot from home owners in Florida) Florida is a breeding grounds for hacks in the hvac biz. If I were there I'd want you on my team as well.


Cuban mafia LOL


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

JJboy said:


> Cuban mafia LOL


 
saiY huLloh tWo mUi lItTlE fRen'! LOL!! :laughing:


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

Miami is the cuban mafia. Orlando is Puerto Rican mafia.


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## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0Rwv5gco4&feature=related


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