# Tile Shower / No Waterproof - Did my husband do this right?



## Are We There Ye (Jan 23, 2018)

My husband is tiling our bathtub surround. 

Me: Did you waterproof before you began tiling. 

Husband: it's not needed, yes I could've placed a plastic sheet but that's overkill . . . THE BACKERBOARD is WATERPROOF and SO ARE THE TILES.

Me: well from what I've read, I think it is. I read something about ANSI 118 ????

Husband: That's just lobbiest, etc etc

Me: Well I read on the Wonderboard Manufacturing website that said:

WonderBoard® Lite*is not a waterproof barrier. If the area behind the backerboard must be kept dry, use RedGard® Waterproofing and
Crack Prevention Membrane or Custom® 9240 Waterproofing and
Anti-Fracture Membrane

Husband: Again, that's just lawyers trying to CYA. Stop trying to micromanage everything I do. I've built several showers and they've never leaked.

Me: Well how do you know they've never leaked? They were flip houses?

_________________________________________________________


So . . . . 
Maybe I am wrong??? 
Maybe I should just keep my mouth??? 
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about ????:vs_mad:


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Welp....I'm glad I don't own one of his flips. 1. Seams should have taped. 2. Yes it should have been waterproofed on this side of the wonderboard not behind. And lastly that's the wrong adhesive. Should have been thinset ( comes in a bag and is mixed with water in a bucket) and not mastic. Mastic isn't recommended for wet areas. If it were me I wouldn't argue, let him tile it again in a few years.


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## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

well - if that's as far as he's gotten
4 courses X 5'...I'd remove more because 
wrong thinset rather than no red guard...

of course he really should seal CBB before tile

Peace


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## NickTheGreat (Jul 25, 2014)

It's against the Man Code to prove a man wrong, especially against his wife.

So I'll have to stop here or risk revocation of my man card.


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

It's all fixable. C'mon Nick, women like when you help them. It's a different/better type of man card.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Wonderboard is not water proof. Tile is waterproof. Grout is not waterproof. There should have been a 6 mil vapor barrier behind the Wonderboard. All seams should have been covered with alkaline resistant mesh tape and thinset (yes, thinset as mentioned, not mastic). The cubbies should have been treated with Red Gard.

I don't see a shower head, so is there a shower in the making?? 

Man card or not.......wrong is wrong.....but experience is the best teacher. He'll have another opportunity to deal with this in the near future.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

My only addition to chandler would be in addition to using red guard on corners I would use it on seams also.....because that is what my inspector requires. Ron


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## Are We There Ye (Jan 23, 2018)

Thank You Everyone !!!!

And NO . . . I'm not going to say anything . . . saving it in my arsensal for future use LOL!!! "Project" is still underway.

So can anyone send a picture of the bucket of thinset that should've been used ???

AND!!!! When can I expect a new shower???? I can't WAIT to start planning !!!!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Can't send a picture of a bucket of thinset..... because I/you can't buy it in a bucket and I don't have a bucket mixed right now:wink2: (Actually in very small patch quantities you sometimes can find it)

Real answer, thinset can't be premixed..... it is a cementious product that comes in a bag and you have to mix it with water....

There are various "grades" of thinset that have to do with primarily it's adhesive quality and (I guess you'd say some flexable structural quality).

Custom's Versa Bond (Home Depot) is a decent mid-grade... but there are many makers/choices.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

http://www.mapei.com/public/US/products/100903-type-1-en.pdf

""" DESCRIPTION
Type 1 is a professional-grade, traditional, nonflammable, acrylic adhesive for
setting glazed and unglazed ceramic and porcelain tiles on walls, floors and
countertops. This adhesive is used for interior applications only.
FEATURES AND BENEFITS
• Excellent grab: up to 12" x 12" (30 x 30 cm) tile
• Helps contribute to LEED points
• Low in odor and VOCs
• Smooth and easy to spread
• Extended open time
INDUSTRY STANDARDS AND APPROVALS
• ANSI: Meets or exceeds A136.1, Type 1 standards
• ISO 13007: Classification D1TE
LEED Points Contribution LEED Points
MR Credit 5, Regional Materials*.......................................Up to 2 points
IEQ Credit 4.1, Low-Emitting Materials –
Adhesives and Sealants...................................................................1 point
IEQ Credit 4.3, Low-Emitting Materials –
Flooring Systems.............................................................................1 point
* Using this product may help contribute to LEED certification of projects in the
categories shown above. Points are awarded based on contributions of all
project materials.
WHERE TO USE
• For use with most types of glazed and unglazed ceramics and porcelain tile,
and ceramic and porcelain mosaics for walls and floors
• Use to install tiles up to 6" x 6" (15 x 15 cm) on floors, and up to 12" x 12"
(30 x 30 cm) on walls.
• For tub and bath surrounds where service requirements do not exceed ANSI
A136.1 Type 1
• For the installation of tile on walls in intermittent wet conditions such as tub
and shower surrounds
LIMITATIONS
• Do not install over substrates containing asbestos.
• Do not use for exterior applications, steam rooms, shower floors or areas
subject to water immersion.
• Do not apply over waterproofing, crack isolation or uncoupling
membranes; or over particleboard, Masonite, oriented strand board
(OSB), Lauan, gypsum floor-patching compounds, metal or similar
dimensionally unstable substrates.
• Use only at temperatures between 40°F and 95°F (4°C and 35°C).
• Do not use for setting bathroom fixtures or grab bars.
• Do not use to set natural stone.**
** For these installations, contact MAPEI's Technical Services Department for
product recommendations.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

ISO 13007 Classification
Classification Code Classification Requirement Test Result
D1 (normal mastic) Tensile adhesion strength; tensile
adhesion strength after aging Pass
T (vertical slip resistance) Slip ≤ 0,5 mm Pass
E (extended open time) ≥ 0,5 N/mm2 (after not less than
30 minutes) Pass
ANSI Specification
Test Method Specification Standard Test Result
ANSI A136.1 – shear strength
(7 days)
Dry ≥ 50 psi (0,34 MPa) Pass
Wet immersion ≥ 50 psi (0,34 MPa) Pass
ANSI A136.1 – shear strength
(28 days) ≥ 50 psi (0,34 MPa) Pass
ANSI A136.1 – resistance to
mold growth
Will not support mold growth when
tested in accordance to Section 6.4 Pass

PROTECTION
1. Protect containers from freezing in transit and storage.
This product is freeze/thaw-stable at temperatures
down to 0°F (-18°C). However, protect all water-based
products from freezing. If this material is frozen, do not
stir it until it has completely thawed.
2. Provide for heated storage on site and deliver materials
at least 24 hours before tilework begins.
3. Protect from water until the adhesive has reached its
final set, typically from 24 to 48 hours. For shower
walls, wait at least 72 hours.
4. Floors: Keep free from general traffic for at least 72
hours after installation. Plywood or stepping boards
may be used after 24 hours when occasional stepping
on the floor is unavoidable.
5. Walls: Protect from impact, vibration and hammering
on adjacent and opposite walls for at least 14 days after
installation.


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

What we have here, friends, is a matter of poor character.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

cleveman said:


> What we have here, friends, is a matter of poor character.


It's possible it's ignorence..... but sure sounds like you are right.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

It may not be what you or I use.

But it is very arrogant to assume your way is the best or the only way to do it.

While you are arguing about a Ford and Chevy, someone comes along with a Dodge.
It may not be better or as expensive, but it gets the job done.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

ron45 said:


> It may not be what you or I use.
> 
> But it is very arrogant to assume your way is the best or the only way to do it.
> 
> ...


Ron..... I like your thought as many good ways to skin a cat... but there are some industry accepted standards of OK grade practices...

While some might kerdi out or red guard an entire shower, CBB with a vapor barrier is also OK.... but I think it is generally accepted industry practice to at least provide a vapor barrier....

And I think it is generally accepted practice to not use a mastic in a definately wet (Shower) location... (I know that is a damp style mastic, but I don't think it is recomended for a wet shower location.

And believe it or not, there are some people (sellers/flippers/builders) that build to the very basic appearance without regard to longevity or safety that won't appear till they cashed the check and they are gone. I think that is an issue and element of "character".

Best... And your point is well taken by me.


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## w0j0 (Dec 29, 2017)

If that mapei adhesive is anything like acrylpro, it'll be fine. Acrylpro is approved for use with shower and tub walls but not for submerging. The tub walls that were original to my 1970 built house were stuck onto plain old drywall with cutback. The previous owner was not one for maintenance so there was some mold/rot and deterioration where the grout had cracked and the caulk failed but otherwise was in good shape when I demo'd it with no major water issues. I find more and more, as I tear out others' work to upgrade/make modern, that the things that aren't supposed to work actually have held up surprisingly well over time. Not to say that I'd recommend doing half the stuff I uncover but it's held up somehow.

Sent from my mobile look-at device


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

I was just in a home the other day and there was tile in the entry, into the kitchen and dining room. I complimented the homeowner on their choice and the gal told me they were disappointed because the grout was cracking up and falling out in places.

The installation was about 5 years old and I would bet that there was no mortar under the backerboard.

The reason I'm posting this is because this is another example of what happens when you don't adhere to installation instructions, try to do things as cheaply or as quickly as possible, or plain don't know the correct procedure.

This ends up really hurting the tile industry specifically and all trades in general.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> I would bet that there was no mortar under the backerboard.


Or the installation was made directly to the subfloor. I see that a lot. No cbu, no slip sheet and the tile and grout will release.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

cleveman said:


> I was just in a home the other day and there was tile in the entry, into the kitchen and dining room. I complimented the homeowner on their choice and the gal told me they were disappointed because the grout was cracking up and falling out in places.
> 
> The installation was about 5 years old and I would bet that there was no mortar under the backerboard.
> 
> ...


What I find mostly is the floor should not have been laid to begin with because there was too much deflection.


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## 1995droptopz (Sep 14, 2010)

ron45 said:


> What I find mostly is the floor should not have been laid to begin with because there was too much deflection.


Interesting that the presence of drywall underneath the joists makes that much of a difference in deflection. I did not see this on any of the deflection calculators I found online.

Side note about the untaped seams. I just removed a shower where there were several horizontal cracks across several tiles. When I pulled it down, I found the cracks were along the CBU joints that were not taped.


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## Glassit (Jan 30, 2016)

1995droptopz said:


> Interesting that the presence of drywall underneath the joists makes that much of a difference in deflection. I did not see this on any of the deflection calculators I found online.
> 
> Side note about the untaped seams. I just removed a shower where there were several horizontal cracks across several tiles. When I pulled it down, I found the cracks were along the CBU joints that were not taped.


This image is referring to allowable deflection, not saying that drywall will shore up the ceiling. If you have more deflection than this the drywall is liable to crack, if you don't have drywall to worry about, code will allow for more deflection.

OP's shower will probably outlast us all, but the moisture behind might spawn some fungus in the coming years. Not done right but don't count on a new one anytime soon.


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## kritterkare (Feb 8, 2018)

I would think the tile would keep about all moisture out, assuming there is no constant moisture in the rear. 
I have seen enough regular drywall used in high moisture areas that did just fine to say do not worry about it.
As long as the tile is grouted properly and behind the drywall is not exposed to extreme cold that would condense moisture I think you are fine.


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