# Repairing pinhole leak in ABS drain in ceiling



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I ran the tip of a drywall screw into a 2" black ABS waste line buried between my first floor ceiling and the second story sub floor. 

I was thinking of just dabbing some glue or epoxy on the spot.

Unlike the leak in this similar current thread, mine will be enclosed once the drywall is replaced. http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/how-repair-plastic-drain-thats-not-accessible-186294/

If anyone wonders why the ceiling was opened, a plumber needed access to fix a bad (bath tub waste line) install by an unlicensed (contractor). I damaged (this) line after the plumber did his job, which did not include drywall work.

Before I though to check here, I was looking at some JB Weld at the HD. I noticed there is one type for PVC and another for ABS and PVC. (The guy at HD was telling me to get the stuff that was listed for PVC, even after I pointed out it did not say it was for ABS, and then I pointed out the JB Weld on the next rack said it was for ABS or PVC.)

The leak is in the upper middle of the area of the pipe sanded clean in the first pic. About an inch inside of the edge of the drywall hole the original builder connected the line with the leak via a flex connector to a another drain pipe.

The second pic shows where the pipe turns up approximately 43" from the wall. It's the one with the green spray paint.

Pic 4 shows the connection from the wasteline for the tub immediately above and another which goes I know not. Perhaps it is a vent?


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Cut out that whole section and use two new hubless connectors.
Do you really want to deal with drywall fixes when your patches start leaking?


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Sounds good, Joe. I remember that you like things done one way and that is the right way, which is good. To protect those soft flexible connections that are so close to the drywall, I will pick up the shielded type (after I check the alignment of the two connections. I see where the shields eliminate the flexibility that may be needed if after install the pipe doesn't exactly align). And yes, I hate having to patch drywall. Thanks.

I see where you ask where we are located. I am in Orange County, CA.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

One clean cut with the hacksaw and the existing no hub connector on the other end, which's bands I first loosened, alloweded me to pull a 21" section of the old ABS free.

Now I know why there was water accumulating in the pipe instead of draining out. Pic #1

See the accumulated sediment beyond the rib (which is attached just before the bend down inside the wall.) Pic 2.

I should be able to reuse the section I cut out, but the few dollars isn't worth the risk. *(WTF was I thinking. I took that section out because it had the leak in it.) I suppose I am begging for trouble if I use a regular ABS connector on the end where the cut was made and a new flexible no hub on the end by the wall.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I got the old pipe section out and took the no hub off. Turns out it is shielded and it connected to a cast iron elbow that turned down into the wall. Off to Ferguson's P Supply. I don't trust the stuff from HD.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I did it just as you advised, using two no hub connectors from NSF and a 22" section of ABS. I cut the pipe perhaps slightly long and trimmed it twice by 1/8"+ to get a snug fit. This would have been hell had I tried gluing he one end with a solid connector. Thanks. You folk are the best.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Nice illegal repair...

Usually with smaller pipe you could have glued it all back in with proper couplings. No hub clamps are not approved for plastic fittings. Good for cast iron though.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Nice illegal repair...
> 
> Usually with smaller pipe you could have glued it all back in with proper couplings. No hub clamps are not approved for plastic fittings. Good for cast iron though.


Man, I'd hate to have you inspect in my town :jester:


----------



## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

I would have recommended an ABS repair coupling 3inch or 4 inch depending on size of that pipe. Can't tell by pick. But this will fly.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks. I think Joe's suggestion of double no hubs was a good one, but I sort of enjoy tooling around with my hands and why I am not certain the fix is illegal for a repair as opposed to a new install, and I don't think it will ever be a problem, I just might glue up the ABS to ABS joint with an ABS connector. I have the glue and the joint will set me back a whopping $.79.

The terminus in the wall being to a cast iron elbow, I will leave it connected with the no hub.


I am surprised that I got thanks. If anyone is wondering why all the pics, I figure they may make it easier for you guys to help some other lost souls like me. Also, this new cell phone is kind of neat.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

747 said:


> I would have recommended an ABS repair coupling 3inch or 4 inch depending on size of that pipe. Can't tell by pick. But this will fly.


It's 2" ABS and the section cut out and replaced is 19" long. By 3 inch or 4 inch do you mean the width of the connection? The ones I see at the HD are about 1.5 ". They allow each pipe to be inserted about .75" into the connector. I think you may mean to get a wider coupling that allows more of the pipe to be inserted in each end.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Klawman said:


> It's 2" ABS and the section cut out and replaced is 19" long. By 3 inch or 4 inch do you mean the width of the connection? The ones I see at the HD are about 1.5 ". They allow each pipe to be inserted about .75" into the connector. I think you may mean to get a wider coupling that allows more of the pipe to be inserted in each end.


ABS couplings are not readily available in any other length than what you saw at the store.
Over 2 decades of plumbing with ABS and I have never seen an ABS repair coupling. Not saying they don't make them, but we use the no hub couplings instead- very similar, if not the same to the method you used.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

TheEplumber, A plumber who was getting some parts at the HD selected that particular brand no hub connection. The HD carried two manufacturers and he liked this because the sleeve is softer and easier to roll back on itself.

A guy working at HD also said that as far as he knows no one makes a repair kit for ABS pipes, while there is such a thing for 3/4" pvc irrigation pipe.

Anyhow, depending on how rapidly the glue dries (no cures but dries tot he point I cannot slide the pipe in and out), I can easily imagine how I can 1) remove the replacement section, (2) glue the ABS connector onto the waste line coming off of the stack (3) position the no hub on the cast iron elbow in the wall, (4) roll the rubber of that no hub back on itself, (5) make sure the shield is slid over the replacement pipe, (6) apply a liberal amount of glue to the open end of the coupling and the corresponding end of the pipe section. (7) shove the wet end of the pipe into the coupling quickly, (8) align the other end of the section with the no hub and slide the pipe section back out of the ABS connector perhaps 1/4" while twisting the pipe about a 1/4 turn, (9) roll the no hub connector back down over the end of the pipe section, (10) slide the shield over the no hub and tighten. After the glue cures test for leaks and that should do it. yes?

The weakness of my plan is how fast the glue dries. What I have is Oatey Medium Black ABS Cement. Given that the instructions say to keep pressure on the connection for 30 seconds, my guess is this sets up real quick. I may check to see if there is a slow drying cement readily available.

Whatever I do, I will first test things in the garage and make sure that the fittings are clean and deburred.

This heat may increase normal drying time so I may set the AC really low.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I am overthinking this. I will just glue the coupling on one end, have the no hub in place on the cast iron elbow with the one end rolled back and dry fit the pipe. I understand that it will push in deeper when wet with glue but I want it fit dry so that it is just a bit too long, maybe 1/4" to swing in and align with the cast iron. If it fits about like that, glue the far end, swing the wall end in and roll down the no hub. G'nite. Before I do anything, I will test the gluing time and how deep the pipe seats with scraps.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Measure the distance between the two ends, deduct for the coupling and no hub internal stops, square cut the pipe that length. 
Then glue one end into the coupling and place the other end in line with the rolled back no hub. 
Adjust the no hub rubber and shield and tighten to 60 inch lb tork. Let the glue set for 5 minutes and check for leaks. Your done- find another project or enjoy a bath.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

There is next to no flexibility in the line coming from the stack, as it is cut only about a foot from the stack, and I suspect that will make it hard to swing everything in line like that, but I may surprise myself. Thanks. A hot soak in a tub sounds good.


----------



## DidIDoThat (Nov 17, 2012)

Ghostmaker said:


> Nice illegal repair...
> 
> Usually with smaller pipe you could have glued it all back in with proper couplings. No hub clamps are not approved for plastic fittings. Good for cast iron though.


Since when are Ferncos not approved for abs ?
You may want to let Fernco Inc know they are full of crap.

http://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/Proflex_salesheet_T4809_0.pdf


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I just got done with a bunch of honey dos and am going to reset that pipe, but I want to make sure I understand TheEplumber. Are you saying to glue the ABS Coupling on the pipe coming off of the stack. (Approx where the shielded no hub now connects the replacement pipe to the pipe sprayed with the green paint. I call this the stack end connection.)

Then cut the replacement section to the distance between the inner stop of that ABS connector and the inner stop of the no hub used to connect with the cast iron elbow. That would mean cutting the repair section almost 1" less than the distance between the cast iron elbow and the stack end connection. I have to pick up the ABS connector to get an exact measurement.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

DidIDoThat said:


> Since when are Ferncos not approved for abs ?
> You may want to let Fernco Inc know they are full of crap.
> 
> http://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/literature/Proflex_salesheet_T4809_0.pdf


Fernco is a brand name of many products. You referenced their shielded couplings.
A non shield coupling- which most people associate with fernco are illegal inside the footprint of a structure.
The couplings you reference are shielded transition couplings for use between 2 different pipe materials. ABS/PVC are slightly different O.D.s than cast iron pipe.
If you examine the inside of the transition coupling- it says which end to apply to CI or Pl. to compensate for the OD differences.
I worked a project once where all the ground rough was PVC. The in-wall and ceiling work was piped in DWV copper- for fire and air plenum reasons. We used boxes and boxes of these couplings to join the copper to plastic. Their was a major difference in OD between the two.

A regular shielded coupling- I call no-hub- is for joining cast iron to cast iron only- although a lot of people use them for plastic pipe repair. They are not allowed to join cast iron to plastic. The plastic pipe will stretch the coupling and cause the cast iron side to pucker and not seal- caused by the OD difference.
So yes- those shieled couplings are approved if used in the right application :thumbsup:


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

TheEplumber said:


> Fernco is a brand name of many products. You referenced their shielded couplings.
> A non shield coupling- which most people associate with fernco are illegal inside the footprint of a structure.
> The couplings you reference are shielded transition couplings for use between 2 different pipe materials. ABS/PVC are slightly different O.D.s than cast iron pipe.
> If you examine the inside of the transition coupling- it says which end to apply to CI or Pl. to compensate for the OD differences.
> ...


You are spot on that not all no hub couplings are the same. I just came from the HD where I specifically asked about what the markings meant on two different shielded couplings and of course was given the wrong answer and told me to use the wrong one for this specific application. I then spotted a buddy who has worked there forever and he knew the difference.

One from NSF is marked CI-PS-PS and it may be used to connect Cast Iron to ABS or ABS to ABS. The other is a Plumbquick by Fernco and is for CI, PL or ST to any of those 3. The difference I see between them is the (1) Fernco shield is smooth sheet metal and the inexpensive one is ribbed and (2) the rubber wall of the Fernco is thicker than the product from wherever. The boxes for both indeed were marked "Transition".

I am not disputing that your are correct when you say they may not be used to connect PS to PS. Codes may not agree with what the manufacturer rates its product.

Neither are approved for connecting to Copper (CU). They have an smaller inner OD on the Copper side.

Earlier a guy at Lowe's sold me a non-shielded flexible coupling and I am not using it.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

TheEplumber said:


> Man, I'd hate to have you inspect in my town :jester:


I worked 28 years in the trade. Cutting corners was never a option. They do make proper mechanical couplings for Plastic Pipe. Mission brand couplings or No hub lowflex brand couplings. I hope you did notice the crud on the bottom of his cut pipe. That crud was due to the no hub rubber gasket blocking drainage flow.

Eplumber I don't think you would hate me. You would know if I inspected your work it would only get turned down with a legitimate code violation. This makes the plumbers life easier when they don't have to second guess what inspector preferences are. Because there should be none. Either it's in the code book or made up and made up I can't enforce. I've been there and had to deal with made up code by some inspectors. That's costly and bad for business.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Ghostmaker said:


> I worked 28 years in the trade. Cutting corners was never a option. They do make proper mechanical couplings for Plastic Pipe. Mission brand couplings or No hub lowflex brand couplings. I hope you did notice the crud on the bottom of his cut pipe. That crud was due to the no hub rubber gasket blocking drainage flow.


 
I noticed it. Wherever that coupling came from, the gasket was higher than the width of the ABS pipe's wall and that is what also caused some pooling on the ABS side of the connection.

Anyhow, since the house passed inspections at the time of construction and the shielded no hub was used to connect the ABS up to the ABS elbow, *I have to assume that it was acceptable to the inspector when the house was built 24 years ago.*


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I am really lost. Is the shielded no hub branded PlumbQwik by Fernco, part # P3000-22, good for connecting properly suspended ABS to ABS. The chart referenced by DidIDoThat reads " *3000-22 2” CI, PL or ST to 2” CI, PL, or ST CP-200*". A similar one was used to connect the ABS 2" to the ABS elbow in the wall. I used a new one to connect the replacement pipe section to that elbow and another to connect the opposite end at the point where I cut the section with the pin hole out. I guess the code may have changed in 24 years, but even then isn't there a difference between what is allowed for new construction and repairs?
​


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Now I am not even sure if that elbow is cast iron or ABS and I won't know for certain unless I yank the fittings off of it, which I am not going to do until I figure out if I am going to replace one or any shielded no hub fittings. It was hard getting a shot of it, but does this look like CI or ABS?

I thought it was CI because of the reddish brown crud shown in the earlier shots down the throat of the elbow. Whatever it is I am wondering about the flex sleeve being clamped directly down on what I would call the hub of the elbow opening. After posting the side view of the elbow I think it is definitely CI, but I know nothing


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

That is a standard cast iron 1/4 bend- or a 90- which ever you want to call it. Some of them have quite a raised edge on them- no worries- just makes it a little tougher to get the coupling on
Use a CI x Pl shielded transition coupling and an abs coupling on the other end of your repair.
I believe you're over thinking this


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

TheEplumber said:


> That is a standard cast iron 1/4 bend- or a 90- which ever you want to call it. Some of them have quite a raised edge on them- no worries- just makes it a little tougher to get the coupling on
> Use a CI x Pl shielded transition coupling and an abs coupling on the other end of your repair.
> I believe you're over thinking this


Gotcha. I am more than satisfied, now, and will do. One thing. I am confused by your instructions as how to cut the pipe. Should I cut it so that when it is glued on the one end (having pushed the pipe in and seated it against the stop of the ABS coupling) I can barely fit the far end into that transition coupling. I realize that the pipe will seat itself deeper into the abs coupling by about 1/4" when it is wet with glue and expect to cut the pipe about 5/8" longer that the distance from the ABS coupling stop to the transition coupling stop. That may be tight but if it is I can always trim some off the end with the multi tool and/or a file, but I sure don't want it short.

Thanks again for all the help. Without you guys, my rule of thumb is do the opposite of what the guys at the HD say, with a few exceptions.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

This is really very simple. In steps


1. Glue the coupling on the plastic pipe
3. Measure the distance between your cast and the outside of your glued coupling
4 Add 3/4 to that measurement cut your plastic pipe just 1/8 inch short a straight cut..
5. Place band on pipe then place rubber on Cast iron side of pipe roll rubber up onto plastic pipe
6 glue inside of coupling and outside of pipe
7 insert the plastic pipe into the coupling
8. Roll rubber onto cast iron making sure it is good fit
9 slide metal band and tighten
10 run water make sure no leakies...

Have a drop cloth under work area...


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Beautiful instructions, Ghostmaker, which is pretty much what TheEplumber told me but I was too dense to quite understand. Actually, the one end is glued and the other end is snuggly in place up against the CI elbow. I am taking a break and than I am at your step 7. I have to roll the one half of the neoprene sleeve onto the CI. Slide the shield over and tighten. Now I can go blow up some clay birds tomorrow. Thanks.

I also dropped by a plumbing supply, Fergusons, and they told me to do just as you folks. Glue ABS to ABS and use the shielded transition no hub to connect to the CI.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Klawman said:


> Beautiful instructions, Ghostmaker, which is pretty much what TheEplumber told me but I was too dense to quite understand. Actually, the one end is glued and the other end is snuggly in place up against the CI elbow. I am taking a break and than I am at your step 7. I have to roll the one half of the neoprene sleeve onto the CI. Slide the shield over and tighten. Now I can go blow up some clay birds tomorrow. Thanks.
> 
> I also dropped by a plumbing supply, Fergusons, and they told me to do just as you folks. Glue ABS to ABS and use the shielded transition no hub to connect to the CI.


Rolling the rubber may be your hardest part. 
Make sure the interior stop falls into place between the cast and abs- makes for good alignment :thumbsup:


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

TheEplumber said:


> Rolling the rubber may be your hardest part.
> Make sure the interior stop falls into place between the cast and abs- makes for good alignment :thumbsup:


The rubber roll shouldn't be much of a problem, but it is some as it is very tight quarters. That is why I took a break so to let the glued end cure some n case I wiggle the pipe a bit as I push the neoprene over the CI.

Yep. I have that interior stop squarely in place and it is sandwiched tightly between the CI and the ABS.

Now the break is over and I am going to finish the job - WITH GENTLE LOVING HANDS.

On cutting the pipe, I somewhat reluctantly cut it as per what you said. I thought it would be too long so I dry fitted it with great difficulty. Then I glued it in as fast as I could and it is what my neighbor calls "tits on". I almost just used the first section I had cut, but it was about 1/4" shorter and I figured do it as best as I can.
Thanks, guy.


----------



## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Done and waiting an extra half hour for the leak test, but it isn't going to leak. Unrolling the rubber was actually simple, once I figured out that I wasn't trying to push the rolled back part but the edge of the half that stays on the ABS. Duh.

I think it is DONE. I can't get a torque wrench in the but it feels about 5 ft pounds which is the equivalent of 60 inch pounds.

I think it's time to imbibe and will have to see what we have as far as a beer or some wine if there be none. Wish I could by you guys a cold one.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Glad to help out. Thanks for doing it properly.


----------

