# New Countertop doesn't allow installing drawerfronts



## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

During a condo kitchen remodeling, there was lack of coordination between cabinet installer and countertop fabricator. The quartz countertop was installed before the drawer fronts. They are pointing fingers at each other and at the cabinet manufacturer for not specifying a 3/4" plywood above cabinets. 
As the attached pictures show, the drawerfront doesn't have enough clearance below the countertop bulnose to fit.
These are glossy white thermofoil covered drawer fronts. 

I'm thinking my options (from least expensive to most) are:
1) Find a source for custom-made drawer front that is 1/8” shorter on top. I'm having difficulty finding a source in North America.
2) Install the drawer and cabinet fronts 1/8” lower. This means installing cabinets doors lower as well. Would appear abnormal and not uniform to other cabinets. 
3) Cut bullnose 1/8” shorter in height. Would appear shorter than the other side.
4) Remove bullnose, use magnetic sensor to locate all screws, Cut screws with a rotary tool and then lift the countertop 1/8".
5) Remove quartz backsplash, remove quartz countertop, remove old plywood, install new plywood, fabricate and install new countertop.

Any better ideas?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

cut some of the top off, refinish it. then flip it over and install it. done


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

Fix'n it said:


> cut some of the top off, refinish it. then flip it over and install it. done


I wish it was that easy. The thermofoil wraps around front to all sides except the back. cutting any of it will remove the thermofoil and I am not aware of any way of refinishing it.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

as the customer..tell the two to get it right ..thats what your paying for..I would just let them fix it..:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: if you say you will hold final check i bet it will get done..


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

ben's plumbing said:


> as the customer..tell the two to get it right ..thats what your paying for..I would just let them fix it..:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: if you say you will hold final check i bet it will get done..


You're very right but here's the problem. This is just one of many blunders they made before I had to fire them because they're not capable of fixing these. Now it is my problem and I am looking for the best solution that can be made to work. Of course, I know I'm responsible for picking the wrong contractor and I'll have to bear the costs.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

seen this once before ...remove drawer see if you can lower roller guides just enough to clear top ...


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

rmk9785e said:


> I wish it was that easy. The thermofoil wraps around front to all sides except the back. cutting any of it will remove the thermofoil and I am not aware of any way of refinishing it.


i have never delt with thermofoil. so, are you saying that it cannot be cut cleanly ? my point was, the cut on the bottom would not be seen (unless your wife knocks your arse out, you fall on the floor. then look up at the bottom of the drawer :laughing and some white paint could touch it up.

otherwise. have new fronts made.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

Fix'n it said:


> ...are you saying that it cannot be cut cleanly ?
> 
> otherwise have new fronts made.


Not sure if it can be cut cleanly. It is a very thin layer of foil over the MDF base. It would be seen in the front because of the edge is eased and the cut thermofoil may separate from the base.

I'd love to find a source where I can have a new one made. Already checked with the manufacturer where I bought my cabinets and learned it is made in China and they don't do custom.




Ben's Plumbing said:


> remove drawer see if you can lower roller guides just enough to clear top ...


Another good option. There clearance between the drawer front and cabinet doors is only about 1/8" which may require lowering the cabinet doors as well, running into the same problem as my original option #2.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

The only thing left is raise the top.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Given you have no recourse on the silestone installer, I'm with Fixnit. 

(I think you probably understand allready that granite/surface installers should template and install after cabinets are set, and would consequently be responsible)

Get on the internet and order 1/8 smaller drawer fronts.... plenty of custom suppliers....


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

rmk9785e said:


> Not sure if it can be cut cleanly. It is a very thin layer of foil over the MDF base. It would be seen in the front because of the edge is eased and the cut thermofoil may separate from the base.
> 
> I'd love to find a source where I can have a new one made. Already checked with the manufacturer where I bought my cabinets and learned it is made in China and they don't do custom.
> 
> ...


 raising and lowering of cabinet doors ....very easy they are designed to do that for adjustments purposes if you can lower the roller guides droping the lower door is simple...no major work on drawer fronts...


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

RMK.... Curious.... If you had had a 3/4 plywood base for the silestone, would not it have shown (at least from a distance) with your close tolerances and especially against thermofoil white?

I think your solid surface installer just made your lip edging too big?????

(When you have 4 cm built up granite edging, you can get the same issue, and surface installers will switch you to either 2 or 3 cm no edge build granite)


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## NickTheGreat (Jul 25, 2014)

How many drawers are we talking and how long a countertop? 

Could you remove the drawer front and reinstall a hair lower? Or would that mess up the cabinet doors below? If you had a lot of drawers this wouldn't be fun. 

If you have a small countertop I'd remove it, shim, and reinstall. Maybe that wouldn't be much fun with that backsplash.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Get on the internet and order 1/8 smaller drawer fronts.... plenty of custom suppliers....


Been on the internet but can't find any custom suppliers. Searched for 'custom thermofoil doors'. Are there any specific keywords I should use in my search?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

It all seems like a dumb-asss rookie mistake.

Could you run a router along the bottom edge of the counter top shaving off 3/16" or so? This would clear the drawers would it not?

I don't understand why the entire top can't be raised 1/4" or so.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

Bud Cline said:


> It all seems like a dumb-asss rookie mistake.
> 
> Could you run a router along the bottom edge of the counter top shaving off 3/16" or so? This would clear the drawers would it not?
> 
> I don't understand why the entire top can't be raised 1/4" or so.


This may be the only practical solution if I can't find custom fronts. The bottom edge of the bullnose would have to be shaved off only 1/8". I suppose it would have to be done to all other countertops as well to look the same.

My understanding is that once the top is glued down with liquid nails on the plywood that is screwed to the cabinets, those screws would have to be cut (option 4 in OP) before the plywood/quartz combo can be raised any. Not sure it will be clean or easy.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

FWIW, I was able to find  a company that can provide custom made drawer and door fronts. Had a great experience speaking with a wonderful person at the other end who walked me through the web site and will be sending me info for a local business that has an account with them for ordering.
I thought I'd share it here for anyone who may have a similar need.


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## RHeat (Nov 14, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> as the customer..tell the two to get it right ..thats what your paying for..I would just let them fix it..:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: if you say you will hold final check i bet it will get done..


100% agree. You should be getting what you pay for :thumbup:


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

RHeat said:


> 100% agree. You should be getting what you pay for :thumbup:


Update: I was mistaken about the gluing medium. He had used silicone. I brought him back today and he gave me the impression that he's doing me a favor. He pushed a few screws from the bottom and the front of the countertop moved up 1.8". He exclaimed "I Fix[ed] it".
When I asked him to remove it all so the correct height underlayment can be installed, he started hemming and hawing. He said you're wanting me to demo it and then fabricate it again. It will cost you $800 more. I'm trying to convince him that it was his fault (or his and the contractor's) because his solution is not very satisfactory. It has pushed part of the quartz slab up, creating tension in the rest and sloped the whole think toward the window.
He has my materials for the rest of the kitchen and a full bathroom shower enclosure. I just have to work with him to have it fixed.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If there are screws and silicone holding the top down, and he took the front ones loose, why don't you just take the back ones loose and level the top. If all he did was jack the front up making the top unlevel I would tell him the top has to be level. 

If you don't want to level the top yourself, just let him finish everything else then hold his money until he levels the top. Make sure the drawers are installed when he levels so he can't just let the front back down. No way would I pay $800 for someone to loosen the top and silicone it back down.

I don't get why he says he has to demo the top just to raise it up?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Jim and OP... My guess would be there is maybe a tile back-splash installed, so the entire counter is sloped backwards (toward the wall/window).

Sure sounds like a blatant hack fix.

OP... Did you actually mean the counter in the front is floating (on the screws) 1.8 inches....or 1/8 inch. Either way... it's still wrong.

Quartz I believe/think has better integrity than granitei in general... but if you read any manufacturer instructions, they are going to require at minimum, level (in plane) cabinate frames to support/place the quartz... which now clearly you do not have.

Flash those manufacturer instructions in front of hom... now that he has in effect acknowledged its his problem by trying to fix it, I think you have him with leverage.

Good luck


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> OP... Did you actually mean the counter in the front is floating (on the screws) 1.8 inches....or 1/8 inch. Either way... it's still wrong.


 
Good point - he possibly means 1/8". Not the end of the world to have a little slope to the back. If you spill a liquid on the counter, it does not run onto the floor.

I would want it well supported for sure.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

BigJim said:


> If you don't want to level the top yourself, just let him finish everything else then hold his money until he levels the top. Make sure the drawers are installed when he levels so he can't just let the front back down....
> I don't get why he says he has to demo the top just to raise it up?


The drawer fronts are now installed.
He thinks if he tries to remove the whole countertop, it may break in the front/back of the sink opening and then he will have to fabricate from new materials.
I'm paying him for proper installation and am avoiding his transferring the responsibility to me for fixing his error.



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> <SNIP>
> OP... Did you actually mean the counter in the front is floating (on the screws) 1.8 inches....or 1/8 inch. Either way... it's still wrong.
> 
> Quartz I believe/think has better integrity than granite in general... but if you read any manufacturer instructions, they are going to require at minimum, level (in plane) cabinet frames to support/place the quartz... which now clearly you do not have.
> ...


This is a bay window installation with quartz backsplash on the sides. Spill on the sides may be stopped by backsplash but spill in the window area will go back to the window.
He jacked it up by 1/8" with 8 screws from the bottom. Parts of those screws are still protruding about 1/2"-3/4" below the plywood above the cabinets. 
He cannot read English or for that matter much of Spanish. These folks don't read or seem to care for instructions.
He will be returning this Monday morning. Would having him support the raised and level position with more screws be an acceptable alternative to the risk of its breakage?
My only leverage with him is the remaining payment of $2K and his leverage is having my quartz slabs/materials for the kitchen and one bathroom.
I'm exhausted having to argue with these bozos. I suspect that may be part of their strategy to push the owner to accept sub-par work and get them outta here.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

rmk9785e said:


> I'm exhausted having to argue with these bozos. I suspect that may be part of their strategy to push the owner to accept sub-par work and get them outta here.


that is my experience. i have bought granite 3 times. 3 times there were problems. far as i am concerned these people are nothing more than used car salesman.


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## rmk9785e (Jun 29, 2011)

Fix'n it said:


> that is my experience. i have bought granite 3 times. 3 times there were problems. far as i am concerned these people are nothing more than used car salesman.


I believe this is one of the driving factors in people choosing the DIY approach. There is a vibrant community for mutual support and knowledge sharing. It may take longer and cost about the same but you know you're doing it the way it is supposed to be done. On the other hand there are things that are beyond an individual's capacity to tackle alone and that is where honest and qualified professionals with good work ethic are needed. Those are hard to find. Our experience as subscribers to a well publicized list of service businesses indicated much angst in user comments/feedback.
Wonder why federal and state governments don't offer and promote extensive trades training (plumbing, electrical, masonry, carpentry, floor/tile installation and others). It could go a long way toward uplifting the economy.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

rmk9785e said:


> Wonder why federal and state governments don't offer and promote extensive trades training (plumbing, electrical, masonry, carpentry, floor/tile installation and others). It could go a long way toward uplifting the economy.


They do in Tennessee, we have a two year free trade collage, the feds are looking at it to see if they want to go that route all over the USA.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

rmk9785e said:


> The drawer fronts are now installed.
> He thinks if he tries to remove the whole countertop, it may break in the front/back of the sink opening and then he will have to fabricate from new materials.
> I'm paying him for proper installation and am avoiding his transferring the responsibility to me for fixing his error.
> 
> ...





Fix'n it said:


> *that is my experience. i have bought granite 3 times. 3 times there were problems. far as i am concerned these people are nothing more than used car salesman*.


Guys... I empathize with your problem/quandry.... but do you not check out your suppliers.... or do you just take everyone at there word and the cheapest price?????


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Guys... I empasize with your problem/quandry.... but do you not check out your suppliers.... or do you just take everyone at there word and the cheapest price?????


all 3 times, i bought from granite fabricators. they had full showrooms and fab shops. the last one was HEARTLAND GRANITE in aurora il. this place is large enough to park a 747 inside, no kidding. saying this, how would i "check them out" ?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

rmk9785e said:


> .
> *Wonder why federal and state governments don't offer and promote extensive trades training (plumbing, electrical, masonry, carpentry, floor/tile installation and others). It could go a long way toward uplifting the economy.*


RMK... Sorta agree with you... just not sure that the giovernment should be involved in what we call "free enterprize".

I'm afraid your idea of "promoting extensive trades training" would extrapolate to further regulation by beuracrats that don't know anything but "when break time is".

And I'm not sure that it is the governments responsibility (YOURS AND MY TAX DOLLARS) to provide trade education, or medical education, or legal education, or buss driving education.

This attitude of let the government solve it, is an individuals abdication of personal responsibility.

And without personal responsibility, you will never solve the problem.

Just an opinion

Best

Peter


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> all 3 times, i bought from granite fabricators. they had full showrooms and fab shops. the last one was HEARTLAND GRANITE in aurora il. this place is large enough to part a 747 inside, no kidding. saying this, how would i "check them out" ?


Well... The best way is to not pay them untill you have FULLY inspected the job... (hold retainage).

If they want full paynent in front, basically tell them to GFTselfs.

Do not be railroaded by the common tactic of a quick "sign off" sheet when they are ready to leave the job....common tactic of krap shops.

If you do not have credit standing... guess youy are up Sh__Creek.

I honestly do not mean to be an AH here, but we should know, and be responsible, for whom we hire, and for whom we advance payment.

(PS: We've all made mistakes...gosh I sure have... but just learn from them.)

Best


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## TPring (Feb 16, 2015)

rmk9785e said:


> Wonder why federal and state governments don't offer and promote extensive trades training (plumbing, electrical, masonry, carpentry, floor/tile installation and others). It could go a long way toward uplifting the economy.


Part of that is because the colleges and universities have convinced the government to advertise that everyone needs a college education and the government can help them pay for it. Meanwhile, these graduates can program a computer all day long [or whatever their major is] but cannot identify a Phillips screwdriver -- They will say, "Is that the plus or the minus?"

I would bet many public schools have moved away from offering shop [wood, metal, auto, electrical, etc.], too.



rmk9785e said:


> He cannot read English or for that matter much of Spanish. These folks don't read or seem to care for instructions.
> .
> .
> .
> My only leverage with him is...


Possibly threaten to call INS???


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## eclark (Jan 23, 2012)

TPring said:


> Part of that is because the colleges and universities have convinced the government to advertise that everyone needs a college education and the government can help them pay for it.


PRIVATE universities leading the charge on that one. The free market beat the government again. And since this is a democracy that means the free market has beat us all and is taking our money. I'd like to find this free market one day and tell him what I think of him.


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