# Do I need a gas meter/service upgrade? DIY water heater project please help.



## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi, I have a Noritz 930 DV @ 250K BTU tankless water heater that I am trying to install in my house. I also have a 75K BTU furnace. 

My problem is that the water heater is about 25' away from the meter and the only available connection on it is 3/4". The furnace is about 20' away and it is fed by a 1" pipe that goes down to 3/4".

It looks like to supply the Noritz I need a 1" pipe to run almost to the heater to supply 250K worth of BTU of gas.

My service looks like a 3/4" pipe comes from the ground which connects to the meter, which has a 1" handoff that goes in the house (furnace) and another free 3/4" outlet that is being unused.

My question is, do I need to upgrade my service or meter ... or can that 3/4" pipe from the ground supply enough gas to feed a 1" pipe and a 3/4" pipe after the meter with enough gas to run my furnace and heater, if I just connect the water heater to the 1" pipe that the furnace is using and then run a new 3/4" dedicated to the furnace?

I have all permits and will get this inspected.

Thanks in advance.


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

:wallbash:


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## gabriel246 (Oct 31, 2009)

*Gas Meter and Service Upgrade*

The 3/4 inch pipe coming from the ground to the gas meter is not enough to supply water heater and furnace 25 feet away. The Gas Company will do the upgrade up to the meter. I think the reason sometimes the inspectors will 
say o.k. to the 3/4 pipe is because many times the furnace and the 
on-demand water heater are not used at the same time. On- demand water
heater is used only for those few minuted that you need it. A regular water 
heater is burning gas all the time. A furnace is not used all the time. it is used 
only those few hours when it is cold. Because they are not used at the same time,
they say O.K. to use 3/4 pipe.


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

Thank you for responce, but I am a bit confused, so is it ok for me to keep my current service and just use the existing pipes 3/4" and a 1" to supply the ondemand water heater and the furnace or the 3/4" from the ground is just too small? Thanks again.


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

^^^gabriel, is it customary for the gas company to supply the upgrade to the meter or is it going to cost out of pocket? Thanks.


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## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

You can call the gas company and ask about an upgrade, they will tell you.


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## gabriel246 (Oct 31, 2009)

*Gas Meter Upgrade*

The Gas Company is responsible ( they will pay) for any work up to the meter
and main shut-off valve. From the meter onward to the house, then you have to pay. From an engineering point of view, the pipe from the ground should be 
One Inch. Pipes toward the house may get smaller. From a practical point of 
view you can use 3/4 inch pipe. Why? What is the reasoning? The resoning is
that you do not use both the on-demand water heater and furnace at the same 
time. The volume ( the cubic inches per minute) is less in reality than what
the engineers designed.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I take 45 minute showers at times......I think the heat might kick on during that :yes:


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## LanterDan (Jul 3, 2006)

The gas meter steps down the pressure and will therefore have a smaller inlet (the "pipe from the ground") than an outlet. This is okay. You should be able to tell from reading the codes on the gas meter what it is rated for. I've never done this, but I think there are old threads here that talk about this. If you wait a little longer there are others who should be able to give you much better advice that what you've been given so far.

The notion that your furnace and hot water heater will never run at the same time is false, and frankly rather silly.


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

gabriel246 said:


> The Gas Company is responsible ( they will pay) for any work up to the meter
> and main shut-off valve. From the meter onward to the house, then you have to pay. From an engineering point of view, the pipe from the ground should be
> One Inch. Pipes toward the house may get smaller. _From a practical point of _
> _view you can use 3/4 inch pipe. Why? What is the reasoning? The resoning is_
> ...


What? Nothing practical there and with that type of thought that is why codes were created

It seems that engineering and code are two completely different thoughts

Code requires pipe sizing for in the event all appliances operating at the same time will have proper gas pressure and volume.

Typicall gas enters the house at 1" or 1 1/4" and reduced down.

Code would not allow 3/4" to 1" and back down to 3/4"

Have a plumber come out and size and lay out the house for you or post total appliances and lengths and I'm sure we can help you lay out the pipe.


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi,

I called the gas company and was forced to leave a message.

Judging from the posts above, my whole service may be wrong. My service looks like a 3/4" pipe comes up from the ground and the meter sits on top of that. The meter had two outlets, one which is a 1" goes into the outside wall, then somewhere it goes downt to 3/4" because thats what it is when it comes out of the wall 20' later and feeds the furnace. There is a free 3/4" outlet on the meter but I do not think it will carry 250K BTU worth of gas about 28' away where my new water heater is.

I am looking forward to speaking to the gas company but right now I am confused unless that 3/4" pipe from the ground is rated to deliver enough gas to feed both the 1" and the 3/4" outlets on the meter, in which case I will just run new pipes from the meter to the appliances, because the 3/4" will feed the furnace and the 1" will go to the water heater.


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## Salem747 (Oct 16, 2009)

Are you even allowed to do any of this? Where I am from nobody but a licensed gas fitter is allowed to touch gas lines.


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## Plumber101 (Feb 25, 2009)

Just looking at code and from the lengths you have given and BTU's you are going to need at least a 1" pipe

Again hire a local plumber to do a sizing and layout. Probably the best $100-200 you ever spent


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

Salem747 said:


> Are you even allowed to do any of this? Where I am from nobody but a licensed gas fitter is allowed to touch gas lines.


 
Here in virginia usa, as a homeowner I am allowed to do whatever it is I want in my house, provided that I get permits in advance and then get the work inspected. For a contractor or a handyman there is a lot more red tape to get a permit. 

I wont touch the meter or the ground feed, but I will redo all the gas pipes inside the house once I have the service upgraded.


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## brokenknee (Dec 13, 2008)

I will admit at the start that I read through the above post pretty fast.

My question, since the feed coming to the meter is before the regulator I would find it hard to believe it would not supply enough flow for both appliances in the house. Pressure up to the regulator could be anywhere from 40psi to 90psi in older area's where they have not upgraded the supply line and newer housing developments have been added on to the existing main. 

Once it hits the regulator I believe it is cut down to 4 to 6psi. I am probably wrong on the high pressures and what it is regulated down to. But I think you should get the idea. 

I would be more concerned about the size of the feed from the meter that supplies the rest of the house.

In MN we are also able to do any work we want on our own property as long as we pull the proper permits and have it inspected.

I will admit I am making the assumption that the regulator is by the meter as is so common in MN.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

brokenknee said:


> Once it hits the regulator I believe it is cut down to 4 to 6psi. I am probably wrong on the high pressures and what it is regulated down to


In many areas you would be off by one order of magnitude. In Seattle, our secondary pressure is either 0.465 or 0.6 psi. Which means that a 3/4" HP pipe can carry 10 times the volume of the LP pipe, as long as temperature remains constant


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## Philip_Soldat (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi, yeah I think there is a regulator on there, I'll post a pic...but there is a problem the gas company has not called back to check out my situation after 4 messages left.

From posts and thinking myself, I think that the 3/4" pipe from the ground to the meter/regulator maybe enough but i need to doublecheck...like i said I have a 1" and a 3/4" comming out of the meter so I think if I rearrange the lines from the meter to the furnace and the new appliance, then the 3/4" ground pipe will be enough to supply the two apliances. I am talking about 350K BTU worth of gas about 30' away for the furnace and the water heater.


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## voytas (Nov 14, 2009)

or may http://www.buildvoy.com


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