# Would you pay $1700 for a biscuit joiner



## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I was on YouTube watching a video which was debating the usefulness of a biscuit joiner. During the video, this flashed on the screen.










It is the Lamello Zeta-P2, can be used for traditional biscuits and P-Systems and retails for $1695.00+tax.

I looked up the P-System. It is essentially two halves of biscuit that connects 2 panels together using a sort of cam-lock system.

If I had need to build panels so they could be taken apart as needed, I would simply go with a cam lock system.











I have a DeWalt biscuit joiner which set me back less than $150.00 and has worked very well for my woodworking needs. 

Even if I were a professional woodworker, I am not sure I could justify paying $1700 such a tool. 

Judging by the lack of reviews for this tool on Amazon, I do not think they sell many of them.


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

I have a biscuit joiner too, but don't remember the brand or model. I do know that it cost under $100 though. I've only used it once or twice so far. There is no way I would spend $1700 for that thing.


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## Tymbo (Jan 18, 2018)

I believe they are the original biscuit joiner and they are truly well built machines made in switzerland. Just like most any tool, you can find a cheaper copy for MUCH less, but you won't find a better one.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Seems ridiculously exorbitant to me also.... maybe theother mention`ed system is some thing really REALLY REALLY special???????:surprise:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Do any of you use E-Bay much......

Sometimes I notice on a pretty generic product that has multiple multiple` suppliers, that some seller has it at a ridiculous price......maybe just hopeing some one will come along and ignorantly buy it.

Wonder if that is a competitive pricing on the tool.

My less that $100 craftsman works perfectly fine.......


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

I have a harbor freight biscuit joiner and IMO it works well. I've only used it on a few projects but it sits on the shelf patiently awaiting the next time it's needed. 

I think I paid under $75


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I am certain I paid less than 100 for the Dewalt that I purchased maybe 20 years ago. 

Used it some making tables, but pretty sure it is still in near new condition.


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

Not when you can get a Festool domino for $1100! Far superior to biscuits in every way and Festool also offers knock down hardware that works with it.

I have the dewalt biscuit jointer and I used it a lot many years ago, hasn't been out of the box in years. 

Remember Norm using the Lamello way back when, imagine those were the only game in town at one time, before the patent expired and all the others started copying them. Doubt they've sold any at that price in a long time.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

I have a Porter Cable biscuit joiner I picked up used and have used it several times. It helps make up for the fact that I'm not very good at traditional joinery. That Festool Domino looks cool and would help in an upcoming project but too rich for me.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Those Lamello machines are awesome. If you watch some YouTube videos on them, they are not regular biscuit joiners. They cut a t-slot at the back of groove. Then they have their own special plastic biscuits ($$$) that lock the two boards together. Some of their connectors are cam-lock, others are one-time connectors that align and hold the boards tight enough that you don't need clamps if glue-ing. Obviously, you need to be a cabinet maker to justify the cost.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

lenaitch said:


> That Festool Domino looks cool and would help in an upcoming project but too rich for me.


Same here. I noticed a number of monetized YouTubers using the Festool Domino now. Must be nice to have when the company is a sponsor and donates it to you. Same with tools such as SawStop and Titan.



SPS-1 said:


> Those Lamello machines are awesome. If you watch some YouTube videos on them, they are not regular biscuit joiners.


I saw the videos on how the P-System works when I first saw the tool.

The one shown in this thread advertises that it also works as a standard biscuit joiner. IMO, a professional woodworker would have to be charging the upper end of premium for their services to justify the cost. It is definitely not worth the cost to the home DIYer unless they have money to burn and like fancy tools.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

I needed to cut some biscuits for *one *project. Bought a cutter at Harbor for about $35.00. Worked fine. It now collects dust in the garage.
.
.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Price you pay for a tool depends on the amount of use you expect out of it. If you are a professional biscuit joiner, maybe this is worth it!


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

This guy did a video calling his biscuit joiner useless. He had to partially take back his statements after numerous viewers pointed out that his machine was not cutting properly, was making slots too wide.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

iamrfixit said:


> Not when you can get a Festool domino for $1100! Far superior to biscuits in every way and Festool also offers knock down hardware that works with it.


Domino supposed to be a stronger joint than biscuit. But for knockdown connectors, I would have to say the Lamello makes a nicer looking joint. Only a hole perhaps 5mm diameter for the wrench, rather than perhaps 15mm diameter for the domino or standard Ikea style connectors. Putting a plastic plug on it does not do much to make it look better.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I just noticed Lamello makes the Clamex S connector. Mounts in a straight slot rather than the T-slotted biscuit, so 2 passes with a standard biscuit cutter should make the appropriate slot. Then 2 splayed screws to hold it in. Looks robust. And only a small hole for the wrench. Next time I have a cabinet to make, I hope I remember that this thing exists.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

SPS-1 said:


> This guy did a video calling his biscuit joiner useless. He had to partially take back his statements after numerous viewers pointed out that his machine was not cutting properly, was making slots too wide.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEHXuoU-CLM



I finally got around to watching the clip. I didn't notice the width of the slots but did notice that the biscuit looked too thin for the slot; it was sloppy. I buy Porter Cable biscuits (for my PC machine) and they are quite tight.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

lenaitch said:


> I finally got around to watching the clip. I didn't notice the width of the slots but did notice that the biscuit looked too thin for the slot; it was sloppy. I buy Porter Cable biscuits (for my PC machine) and they are quite tight.


In a subsequent video, he bought a DeWalt and found that the slots it made were substantially tighter than his old joiner. After experiencing this and coupled with the feedback he got on his original video he eventually conceded that that biscuit joiners were more useful than he realized.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Have you shopped PAWN SHOPS?

Often they will have great new ( almost) tools at less than half the price of retail. 

There is no one reason that these tools end up in hock, but they do, and get sold for what the broker can get for them. 


ED


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

SPS-1 said:


> Domino supposed to be a stronger joint than biscuit. But for knockdown connectors, I would have to say the Lamello makes a nicer looking joint. Only a hole perhaps 5mm diameter for the wrench, rather than perhaps 15mm diameter for the domino or standard Ikea style connectors. Putting a plastic plug on it does not do much to make it look better.



Eh, for knockdown stuff guess I wouldn't really care. You hide the connectors inside or top/bottom so they don't stand out. Even the Lamello's small hole still would need to be covered some way. If I'm doing fine work it would be real joinery with glue anyway. The domino excels at that kind of stuff. 

I'd agree it looks like a pretty slick solution and is a lot more than just a biscuit jointer. Found several videos on youtube showing different options and comparing to the domino. Remember Norm using a Lamello back in the days of New Yankee workshop, but it was just a really expensive biscuit tool, nothing like this thing. 

Wonder how strong that plastic lip is or the slots for that matter, probably works better in some material than others. Pretty neat but when you can say festool is the cheaper option by nearly half, that really says something about the price.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

As a consumer, those cheesy "knockdown" connections aren't good enough. I refuse to buy cam stuff, they don't hold well AND they look bad. 

Charge me more for box joints and toss a soft mallet, glue, and 90* clamps in the flat pack and I'll be yer best friend


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Several times, I have had to make items knock-down style just so I can get them out of my basement. As I get older, getting a cabinet up the stairs ain't getting any easier.

Agree that the cam lock fasteners I have found are not that strong. On the pin side, I put metal threaded inserts into the panel for a better grip. Put the visible hole where it can't be seen (underside of panel), but yeah, don't like the 15mm hole. Domino is a possibility, just that I don't particularly like the fair-sized visible hole.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Used Lamello Zeta P2 at the bargain basement price of just $1100. Act fast.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/classifieds/lamello-zeta-p2-61577/msg596574/?topicseen#msg596574


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Mystriss said:


> As a consumer, those cheesy "knockdown" connections aren't good enough. I refuse to buy cam stuff, they don't hold well AND they look bad.
> 
> Charge me more for box joints and toss a soft mallet, glue, and 90* clamps in the flat pack and I'll be yer best friend


For the most part I agree although I must admit I have bought book shelves and an entertainment center from IKEA (when we lived in an apartment) which has held up well. It should be noted these are of the higher quality line as opposed to the throw away normally bought for college students.

Granted they were only taken down the one time when we moved from our apartment to the house but they are all still solid.

Since I have had my shop, I prefer to build what I can and none of it is of the knock-down variety. I like to build things that could be handed down through generations which means strong permanent joinery.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

For $1700 I could get a 80 gal. compressor and a sand blasting cabinet.

And make due with the other tools I have.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

To stir the pot a little, doesn't the strength of the joint depend more on the quality of the glue and the glue-up job than the type of connector?

(Obviously not applicable to knock-down situations.)
.
.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

iamrfixit said:


> Not when you can get a Festool domino for $1100! Far superior to biscuits in every way and Festool also offers knock down hardware that works with it.
> 
> I have the dewalt biscuit jointer and I used it a lot many years ago, hasn't been out of the box in years.
> 
> Remember Norm using the Lamello way back when, imagine those were the only game in town at one time, before the patent expired and all the others started copying them. Doubt they've sold any at that price in a long time.


Related:


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

ZZZZZ said:


> To stir the pot a little, doesn't the strength of the joint depend more on the quality of the glue and the glue-up job than the type of connector?


Not really, I find. My go-to adhesive is PL Premium. The joint is normally stronger than the parent material. Even white glue gonna give you a real strong joint so long as you have any reasonable amount of wood-wood contact.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

ZZZZZ said:


> To stir the pot a little, doesn't the strength of the joint depend more on the quality of the glue and the glue-up job than the type of connector?
> 
> (Obviously not applicable to knock-down situations.)
> .
> .


~dusts off cobwebs~ Took a while to pull this one outta memory.

Related - https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/02/25/joint-strength-test


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

Mystriss said:


> Related:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msFb8s79bWs



Mortise and loose tenon is pretty easy to accomplish a number of different ways. A handheld router, edge guide and a simple jig to keep the router square can cut most joints, a table mounted router also works great for some joints. Setup can get tedious and require a lot of ingenuity with these methods though. The multi-router like David Marks uses is awesome, but costs more than both a domino and lamello combined, and it would not still not cut all joints. 

The beauty of the domino is that it makes it quick, accurate and easier to cut mortises in any multitude of angles. Setup is pretty quick and allows you to take the tool to the work rather than the other way around. If you have a lot of joints to cut it's really a fantastic tool, not the only way but one of the more efficient.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

iamrfixit said:


> Mortise and loose tenon is pretty easy to accomplish a number of different ways. A handheld router, edge guide and a simple jig to keep the router square can cut most joints, a table mounted router also works great for some joints. Setup can get tedious and require a lot of ingenuity with these methods though. The multi-router like David Marks uses is awesome, but costs more than both a domino and lamello combined, and it would not still not cut all joints.
> 
> The beauty of the domino is that it makes it quick, accurate and easier to cut mortises in any multitude of angles. Setup is pretty quick and allows you to take the tool to the work rather than the other way around. If you have a lot of joints to cut it's really a fantastic tool, not the only way but one of the more efficient.


I'm looking at probably getting the Leigh D4R Pro w/Mortise & Tenon jig to do that, though I mostly want to do pretty dovetails heh


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

iamrfixit said:


> Mortise and loose tenon is pretty easy to accomplish a number of different ways.


Very true.

Anyone who has watched Samurai Carpenter will notice he is big fan of mortise and tenon joinery, he does not use any fancy tools to make them yet he always gets beautiful results.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Continuing on this theme. I was watching YouTube videos by Mokong.

He was using an interesting marking square/gauge that appeared very versitile.










It is a Woodraphic professional dual function scribe gauge.

I was considering getting one until I looked it up and saw the price. The 8-inch model costs $70. The 14-inch is $90... 

Woodraphic appear to be up there with Woodpeckers as far as costs go. Nice precision tools, but the cost on either are just to rich for my blood.


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