# Pros please help - what method attach porch roof to brick veneer



## dinoburger (May 22, 2014)

I want to hire a pro to do this, but I want to hire the RIGHT pro.

I have a "soft" brick veneer covering my 2 story house in the northeast US, built 1997. I was told that the brick is a "softer" brick when it was laid.

I would like to build a front porch all across the front of my house, simple shed roof with perpendicular gable in center over door. The wall has many windows.

Due to improper construction, I will have to remove the existing porch concrete slab and replace it, constructed properly. It is built on the side and front over block wall footed foundation. The footings and block support walls have no issues and are done properly. The back of the slab and other side of the slab were not tied into the house, so the slab has sunk in the center against the house. (there is packed stone fill under the slab, but when it settled slightly over the years the porch slab settled with it)

When we remove the slab and replace it, we will tie the new slab into the house structure on the back and one side, and use the existing block wall front and other side to complete the four sides to support the slab on all four edges.

Doing this presents an opportunity to make any other structural changes to the slab or put in other support for the porch at slab level or below slab level, up against the house.

I am very very nervous about going across my brick into the house for the roof support. I would like to explore supporting half columns against the brick at the house face to support the ledgers and roof, rather than do the bearing support across the brick into the house framing. But I need knowledgeable opinions about this.

Can I please get some experienced input as to the best approach, here? I am LOATHE to punch out huge sections of bricks on the front of my house in case breaching the envelope or removal creates problems down the road in either my house envelope (water penetration issues, I'm thinking) or my masonry (cracking/shifting of veneer above missing sections taken out). One contractor wants to remove huge sections of brick to install ledger against the house framing. I understand why the ledger is best against the house and not outside brick; what I have issue with is penetrating my brick wall with huge holes from the removal of sections of bricks, and whether this would weaken my masonry thereafter.

Would they need to remove an entire strip for the ledger, or can it be done in bearing sections, so a whole stripe of brick doesn't have to be removed, or how is this done? Will it put the masonry veneer structure above the "holes" at risk of cracking/failure in the future? Is is better to leave my brick veneer intact with the exception of anchors to it to hold the roof structure against the house but not load bear across brick?

My instinct is screaming to create half columns against the house, from below, and transfer the load down that way onto below-slab level support structures, instead of across the brick into the house framing. My brick veneer has a large air gap behind it before the house wrap/sheathing/framing.

I have also read of going across the wall INSIDE the house to expose the house envelope and place blocking between it and the brick to "fill" the air gap so you can bolt across the brick into the house framing and snug the bolts. But it seems to me this disrupts the house wrap and causes all sorts of openings where none were before in the vapor and weather proofing layers.

Please help me with what is the advised and PROVEN method to put a roof up against existing brick veneer. 

For scale, the existing porch slab is 7 feet wide by 50 feet long, so the roof would cover that, plus overhang.

Picture of house, below. (existing slab, but no porch with roof, etc. yet)
Picture of porch style I want to build, below (not my house).

Thank you for your input.

This is NOT a DIY project. I want to hire the right professional, and make sure they use the safest method to maintain the integrity of my masonry into the future. But since I'm getting different opinions from local contractors, I'd like to hear from this board theirs.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I don't meet you 'pro' designation but the simple answer is long lag bolts through the brick and into the rim joist between the floors. Or if more pitch is required it might be okay to go through the brick and into the studs. The first I am sure of and latter should be studied.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I'd never hang structure off of brick veneer. Not a deck and certainly not a porch roof.
Speak to a structural engineer about this.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I got lost somewhere around the time you started discussing the settlement history of "the slab". I had trouble understanding if you were talking about the existing house slab, the existing porch slab, or a proposed new slab.

In any case, a few things stand out. First is that, as others have mentioned, you cannot support significant loads like a porch on brick veneer, you need to penetrate into the house framing. So make sure your selected contractor, or your designer, discusses with you EXACTLY how they plan to support your porch.

Second, residential slabs are not normally structural, they are simply walking surfaces. Only in commercial/residential structures are slabs structural elements. The minimum thickness for a structural slab is 6 inches, residential slabs are typically 4 inches or less. When constructing a house addition, it is not necessary or desirable to structurally connect the foundation of the addition to the foundation of the house, or to connect the slab of the addition to the slab of the house. The two elements are generally butted together, and connected using an elastic joint simply to prevent water infiltration.

Support of the slab is generally done using properly placed structural fill, or natural soil if the natural soil is competent. I did not understand your comments about the settlement that has apparently occurred, I could not tell if the settlement is a problem that you want to correct, or even how you know settlement of "the slab" has occurred. Regardless, you are not going to stop settlement of a new porch slab by tieing it to the existing slab at the corners, you prevent settlement by proper installation of the slab base.

You seem to have a very nice house, at this point you may want to consider hiring an architect or structural engineer to review the bids and plans you receive from contractors. Regardless of your personal level of knowledge, you cannot expect to receive adequate, actionable advice from an internet chat forum that would allow you to select the best contractor, and perform adequate review of their plans. Best of luck with the project.


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## dinoburger (May 22, 2014)

Thank you for your inputs.

The settlement that has occurred is the back edge of the porch slab. There is no issue with the construction, design, or function of the house foundation or the block wall and footing foundation to the front of the porch slab. The center has sunk about an inch and now there is separation from the expansion joint and improper pitch. The slab is not structural and is only supported on the rear edge by the packed stone underneath which apparently settled.

For this reason, we already have to remove and replace this slab.

My current thinking is when we do this we can engineer in supports to hold columns against the brick, such as suspended beams or footings under the new porch slab. With the slab then re-made over structural supports, the load could then be transferred down the front of the brick on half columns.

There is a substantial air gap (inch or so, I forget) between the house brick veneer layer and the house sheathing layer, and physics just suggests to me that penetrating the brick and going across this gap into the house framing is very long, levered bolt that will eventually rest down onto the brick anyway, if we simply use long bolts. Furthermore, with the air gap there is no way to tighten bolts without stressing the veneer layer laterally.

So far, we've had a licensed structural engineer, a very well regarded licensed general contractor, and a 30+ year mason give three different strong opinions on how to approach this.

The structural engineer (who did do a site visit) suggested the bolts across the facade into the house framing. However, when I put forth my concerns about the air gap, the many penetrations into the house wrap, and the pull on those LONG bolts eventually tilting down to bear on the brick, anyway, he agreed this was a concern, especially with soft brick.

The mason wants to penetrate rebar into the basement block wall to support footings on top of the stone off the wall, but just under the slab. 

The contractor wants to remove a whole strip of brick across the front of the house, install a ledger against the house wrap into the house framing.

I would like to use a method that transfers the load down half columns placed against the brick, rather than try to transfer the load across the brick face into the house framing, then down.

Since we have to re-do the porch slab, it will expose the block walls. I think we have exposure for putting in an engineered solution at that time, before pouring the new slab.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

To follow the roof slope, your porch roof may have to go up to the window sills. Then it becomes easier to support the remaining brick wall between the windows with angles, remove 4-5 courses of brick and attach your ledger to the studs. Flash the whole thing, angle as well since leaking through the angle is too common.
Your free standing structure is good idea, but it will have to be braced significantly against any movement away from the wall. You can't attach any of it to the house. Possibly i beam sunk into the pier and using metal structure. I don't recommend using wood posts or such there.
I've never done this, but it maybe a starting point for you to talk to the pros.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

carpdad said:


> Then it becomes easier to support the remaining brick wall between the windows with angles, remove 4-5 courses of brick and attach your ledger to the studs. Flash the whole thing, angle as well since leaking through the angle is too common.


The tricky part is supporting the brick above the area you've removed before the angle is installed. It doesn't just stay in place.


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