# Seeking ideas on reducing thermal losses



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi dtech, great question, unfortunately the answers are not so great.
Wood is just over r-1 per inch so not such a good insulator and that style ceiling is far from air tight. Hopefully your guess that there is foam above is correct and that needs to be determined. Fiberglass would be a disaster.

Your search for improvements should start with a detailed energy evaluation where a pro identifies the best places for your improvement dollars. Look for energy auditors in your area and ask to see prior reports they have generated. You want a report and not a sales approach.

Bud


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

Bud9051 said:


> Hi dtech, great question, unfortunately the answers are not so great.
> Wood is just over r-1 per inch so not such a good insulator and that style ceiling is far from air tight. Hopefully your guess that there is foam above is correct and that needs to be determined. Fiberglass would be a disaster.
> 
> Your search for improvements should start with a detailed energy evaluation where a pro identifies the best places for your improvement dollars. Look for energy auditors in your area and ask to see prior reports they have generated. You want a report and not a sales approach.
> ...


Thanks for the reply, the local gas utility is offering free energy assessment so waiting for that to happen, the home has 3 bedrooms which going into the space above revealed ample amount of foam insulation, same thing with the garage so I'm assuming/expecting that there is a layer of foam above the wood planks in the vaulted ceiling. The biggest heat loss almost certainly comes from the large amount of glass in the peak area of the vault, I'd like to see what means of reducing that loss might be available, also thinking installing ceiling fans will help with keeping the area close to the floor warmer. Thankfully the furnace is a lennox , 90% efficient.


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## quatsch (Feb 4, 2021)

A 3rd layer of glass does not add too much, for complex reasons relating to convection currents between the panes, IIRC.
The glass should *not* reflect the sunlight if heat loss in winter is your main concern.

You can find air infiltration on a windy day with a candle flame or a smoke stick.

IDK how the thin air at your altitude affects HVAC issues aside from the air being less dense.

Was at Vail once. 
Downhill skiing at great speed used to be fun for me. 
Mogul jumping, a close second.


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## gthomas785 (Mar 22, 2021)

Get an infrared camera and walk around indoors on a cold day to find air infiltration points. Definitely check the R-value and vapor barrier situation in the ceiling.

Is there a basement? slab? crawlspace?

As for the glass. Facing north, you will not be getting much in the way of solar gain so you don't have to worry about blocking it. You want something that will reflect the radiative loss from the house.
Adding a layer of low-E glass on the inside would help, but how much it would help is hard to say.


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## SW Dweller (Jan 6, 2021)

You just bought a home that the docs for the sale did not mention the insulation values of you new home? That surprises me. Beautiful view, 

All of my ideas will cost a fortune. Ceiling fans will look nice but hot air does not like to move very well as it is thinner than cold air. Huge fans with slow moving blades would be the way to go.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

In your location you would want to see 8 inches or more foam above that plank ceiling.
Just to clarify, that foam insulation is in the ceiling (attic floor) and not in the rafters?

A 90% furnace does not help with comfort, primarily with cost.

A DIY effort with an infrared camera can help, but a skilled energy evaluation can extract a lot more details than a DIY. When they come to do an audit request documentation on everything they do, data input as well as crunched numbers. Knowing what they put into those calculations is important and most do NOT provide that detail. Hopefully they will be using an IR camera and provide pictures.

Bud


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

gthomas785 said:


> Get an infrared camera and walk around indoors on a cold day to find air infiltration points. Definitely check the R-value and vapor barrier situation in the ceiling.
> 
> Is there a basement? slab? crawlspace?
> 
> ...


Hi - home has a 3 ft crawl space, it has what appears to be styrofoam around the foundation wall, it stays pretty warm as the house is a ranch and all of the plumbing and heating ducts are in the crawl space. 

yes reading up on a 3rd pane of glass - it doesn't appear all that cost effective. 

Any thoughts on how effective installing ceiling fans might be to push the warmer air downwards ? 

I may also consider paneling over the 2 areas of glass panes at both ends of the triangular area, it wouldn't take out a large amount of glass , maybe 25% of the overall glass area. 

Prior home faced to the southeast so received a good deal of solar heat and it had much less overall volume , so part of this is adjusting to having substantially greater energy bills and it's colder in the mtns than it was in Denver. AC not needed in the summertime though.


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## gthomas785 (Mar 22, 2021)

Ceiling fans alone will probably not reduce energy loss, but they may make the space more comfortable and allow you to turn down the thermostat a degree or two.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

SW Dweller said:


> You just bought a home that the docs for the sale did not mention the insulation values of you new home? That surprises me. Beautiful view,
> 
> All of my ideas will cost a fortune. Ceiling fans will look nice but hot air does not like to move very well as it is thinner than cold air. Huge fans with slow moving blades would be the way to go.


thanks - had a home inspection done that verified presence of foam insulation in the non vaulted areas, I probably should have gotten the utility bills from prior years - but the view of the San Juan Mtn Range is stunning, and had I gotten the utility bills I may have backed away from the purchase so I didn't, I don't think the bills will be horrible but certainly much more than my prior home where gas and electric was under $100/month.
appreciate the input regards the fans.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

Bud9051 said:


> In your location you would want to see 8 inches or more foam above that plank ceiling.
> Just to clarify, that foam insulation is in the ceiling (attic floor) and not in the rafters?
> 
> A 90% furnace does not help with comfort, primarily with cost.
> ...


foam insulation is above the ceiling of the non vaulted rooms, I didn't measure the depth but looks to be 6" , I may try and find out how much insulation is above the vaulted areas, not sure the best way to get a visual of that area but didn't do more than stick my head up into the ceiling areas through the 2 access points.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

here is the view from the back of the house - pic is taken from inside looking through the double glass doors - the large triangular glass is above the doors - it adds light and is asthetically nice, but the all one can see through the glass is the sky above.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

If you dig out your tape measure and give me a rough total area of all of the double pane glass i can give you a rough estimate of your energy liability. Also the area of that vaulted ceiling.

Note, if you look on the outside, peak of vaulted area do you see a ridge vent on top? If yes, doubtful they foamed those rafters. I also see a hanging light from that vaulted ceiling, that might be a place where you can see or probe around that electrical box to see if there is foam above.

Bud


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

Bud9051 said:


> If you dig out your tape measure and give me a rough total area of all of the double pane glass i can give you a rough estimate of your energy liability. Also the area of that vaulted ceiling.
> 
> Note, if you look on the outside, peak of vaulted area do you see a ridge vent on top? If yes, doubtful they foamed those rafters. I also see a hanging light from that vaulted ceiling, that might be a place where you can see or probe around that electrical box to see if there is foam above.
> 
> Bud


 the widow area measures rough 96 sq ft, that' swiththe wood beam supports for the 6 panes of glass so probably 80 sq ft of glass.

Couldn't see thru the light fixture, some sort of sheet metal above it, but the roof on this house is metal, ridge vent, looks like about 10 " between the roof and the wood ceiling and yes those ceiling boards are thin, I'm pretty sure there is foam insulation above them. 

thanks


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

On the lower windows you can use insulated drapes. 
Ceiling fans are always a good idea for vaulted ceilings.
Many homes with high ceilings use radiant floor heat.
Heating objects instead of the air is always more efficient.
It's a shame it faces north.....but that's where the view is, I guess.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

dtech said:


> thanks - had a home inspection done that verified presence of foam insulation in the non vaulted areas, I probably should have gotten the utility bills from prior years - but the view of the San Juan Mtn Range is stunning, and had I gotten the utility bills I may have backed away from the purchase so I didn't, I don't think the bills will be horrible but certainly much more than my prior home where gas and electric was under $100/month.
> appreciate the input regards the fans.


If you were paying under $100 per month for both gas and electric, that was a steal! 

Most of what I would suggest has already been talked about. Here are my thoughts...

One or two ceiling fans in the Great Room could make a significant difference. Warm air always rises, so if you gently push it back down, it can feel much better. *A large fan running slow is much better than a small fan running fast.
It looks like you have two patio-type doors on your North wall. Those can be HORRIBLE for heat loss, so inspect them closely and take necessary measures, even if it means putting plastic over one or both.
A 90% efficient furnace (if that's what is it - it may be 80%) isn't exceptional. 2 years ago I had a 97% furnace installed in our house, replacing a 25-year old "efficiency" furnace. It dropped about 10% off our heating cost.
Seal your windows if you can, in any appropriate way you can. I've always been fastidious about using a high-quality caulk to seal the outside of windows - particularly where the unit itself meets the frame of the house. 

Hopefully your utility company pinpointed heat-loss areas, and provided some insight into what you can do.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

DrHicks said:


> If you were paying under $100 per month for both gas and electric, that was a steal!
> 
> Most of what I would suggest has already been talked about. Here are my thoughts...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions, the furnace is a Lennox and the efficiency rating is 91% , there are 20 plus windows in the home, fortunately they are decent quality - Andersen High Performance, wood on the interior side and most have double pleated windows shades and they are in good shape with no air leaks. 

As to the utility companies evaluation - they are overwhelmed with their offer of a $25 credit so I'm not scheduled till Jan 24th . At some point I'll likely have ceiling fan(s) installed and some thermal curtains installed over the double patio doors and adjacent windows. If that doesn't get my energy bills to a more acceptable level I might permanently cover/insulate the 4 smallest windows of the upper glass triangle. 

Where I live a good many residents are only here for the warmer months so numerous older houses were built with minimal address to energy efficiency, I'm here full time, luckily am on natural gas whereas many use propane or electric heat, spoke with a fellow who uses all electric heat and his bills are $300 in the winter months. 

thanks


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

dtech said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, the furnace is a Lennox and the efficiency rating is 91% , there are 20 plus windows in the home, fortunately they are decent quality - Andersen High Performance, wood on the interior side and most have double pleated windows shades and they are in good shape with no air leaks.
> 
> As to the utility companies evaluation - they are overwhelmed with their offer of a $25 credit so I'm not scheduled till Jan 24th . At some point I'll likely have ceiling fan(s) installed and some thermal curtains installed over the double patio doors and adjacent windows. If that doesn't get my energy bills to a more acceptable level I might permanently cover/insulate the 4 smallest windows of the upper glass triangle.
> 
> ...


$300 per month, in the dead of winter, isn't really all that bad. After you've been there a year, you can get the utilities set up on even-pay, so that the winter hurts less.

Do you, by chance, have a WiFi Thermostat? I installed one in my house 2 years ago, and I love it! It's just a programmable thermostat - the kind that has been around for decades - but I control it with my phone. We drop the temp to 62 degrees during the day, when we're not there, then down to 55 degrees at night, because we both like sleeping under multiple blankets in a cold room. 

One of the really nice features of the WiFi Thermostat is that, if my wife goes home at an odd time, and texts me saying she's cold, I can immediately take care of that. 

The bottom line is that there are a lot of little things you can do to save a little bit of money on heating. Many are not expensive, but little by little, they add up.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

Ok just seeking some additional comments on options I am considering the make my recently purchased home more energy efficient, the house is 2,800 sg ft, 3 bedroom ranch with central great room, 25 ft vaulted ceilings, 20 yrs old, forced air gas furnace, located in Pagosa Springs, CO - the north facing side of the home has a lot of glass - from which thermal losses are high. Last windows I cut r tech insulation and blocked out a number of windows - doesn't look great but it did reduce energy bills and improve comfort. So a few more things I am considering :

Adding 1 or 2 large slow moving ceiling fans in the vaulted area - according to an energy co audit this could reduce energy bills by 25%, but I'm skeptical . Cost to install these fans $1200 to $1500 , as I'd contract it out and additional wiring to the ceiling would be needed.

Having radiant hydroponic heating system installed, this of course would be $$, but the gas furnace is 20 yrs old and the former owner didn't clean the exhaust trap so a panel of the furnace rusted out some from water leakage, furnace will need replaced in a few yrs. I have a 3ft crawl space under the home , the 3 bedrooms have carpet, the rest of the home is travertine tile, all on a wood sub floor. I am trying to find out if it's feasible to have radiant heat with this type of tile, some panels have very minor stress cracks from settling of the floor. A contractor roughly estimated a $20 ~ 25k cost for this project. The house would be more comfortable and I believe would increase in value and reduce heating costs.

So any additional comments are welcome, esp those would radiant heat experience. thanks


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## SW Dweller (Jan 6, 2021)

Why would ceiling fans be so much? Unless your going to designer stores to buy them.
You can get fans sans the light for under $200 dollars. Lights on fans do very little good for task lighting, especially when they are high off the ground. If you have a box in the ceiling should be a no brainier even if you have to put up a fan box. Fans do not draw much. 
I SERIOUSLY doubt the 25% savings figure by installing fans. I would guess more like 5%. Fans move air they can force hot air down but getting cold air up, not going to happen. My ceilings are 13' My fans are located about 10' off the ground. Sure hope you did not pay for the energy audit.

With a crawl space I would not suggest a hydroponic system. Insulate the floor with polyurethane at least 5 inches. There is a Utube vid where the guy buys sheets, cuts them to size minus a tad and then uses spray foam to seal them in place. Something you can do.

Replace the gas heat as soon as you can, pick a 95% or higher furnace and clean the ducts.
See if you local gas company has any deals for removal of the old furnace. Also check state and fed utility rebate pages. There should be some old hippies around that know this tech. 
I date myself.





Beadwall, Zoneworks 1983 - Fine Homebuilding


Spent an hour late this afternoon looking at a very interesting home built in 1983 (I was there for a roof leak, but got a tour). It may qualify as […]




www.finehomebuilding.com




This would be the most expensive method but it keeps your views, which has got to be worth a lot I would imagine.

Lastly there is a thing called a Bead Wall developed by our friends at Zomeworks in New Mexico. Not on their current page of products. Basically two sheets of glass with a 4" space between them. Using a vacum motor transfer the beads into the space when the sun goes down. Morning comes reverse and let the light in.


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## dtech (Jul 18, 2020)

Thanks - been a while since I priced the fans - looks like $250 ~ $350 per fan more realistic - 54" 3 blade fans. I was skeptical regards the 25% savings. Not sure how effective insulating the floor would be although the prior owner did put some fiberglass batts under the floor in the non carpeted areas, but the crawl space is below ground level and has insulation around the walls and is not vented - it stays pretty warm probably degrees down there. 

The current furnace is a Lennox and I believe is rated at 92% efficiency, but it is 20 yrs old and will need replacing, I was thinking about the hydroponic radiant heat but really not sure if retrofitting is practical as I don't know how heat losses from the pipes into the crawl space air would be controlled and if an existing tile floor would be an issue.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

dtech said:


> Adding 1 or 2 large slow moving ceiling fans in the vaulted area - according to an energy co audit this could reduce energy bills by 25%, but I'm skeptical .


25% seems pretty high, but you could probably achieve a 5-10% reduction on your gas bill. We did a DIY ceiling fan install (2 fans) in my parents' home that had 9' ceilings. That paid for itself in 3 months, but the furnace was in the attic and the heat registers were in the ceiling. Before the fans, it was pushing 90 degrees at the ceiling and 60 at the floor. 

You might check what the temp is at the peak vs. where you're at. If the temperature difference is large, the fans could pay for themselves fairly quickly.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

As you stated originally, you need to address the heat loss more than adding efficiency to your heating. Specializing in this stuff, I can tell you people spend a lot in insulation of R50, only to have huge windows that are probably no more than R5. Windows need a close look. Not saying delete them, but possibly replace. 

Other factor is 'air tightness'. Rarely is considered, but it is a really big deal with high delta T's. FLIR imagery will really help you pinpoint some things. 

Possibly being around wood, you may also consider true gasification or high eff wood burning.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

I had a small family room addition on my last home.
Well insulated, vaulted ceiling with 12" insulation on the ceiling.
The room was unable to connect to the existing heat source so we used a small "Kerosun" heater.
I installed one ceiling fan on the beam in the center of the room. ...about 15' from the floor.
If we used the little heater and didn't turn on the fan, the fan would start to turn as the warm air rose to the ceiling.
Turning on the fan would blast hot air down into the room. 
So yes, ceiling fans, especially on cathedral or vaulted ceilings are a great way to push heated air down into the room.
And the best way to heat areas like that is with hydronic floor heating. It allows the air to stratify and keeps the warmth down on the lower part of the room.
Warm floors and comfortable air at "living" height.


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