# When auto repair shops mess up



## pumpkin11 (Oct 31, 2020)

your story is not uncommon,

i worked at an auto shop when i was 18-20 years old,

i have seen the bad, and the ugly,

you don't want to hear the stories i have,

i don't trust repair shops, none of them,

not because they don't have the KNOWLEDGE to fix cars properly, it is because they are too rushed,

the more jobs a mechanic does, the more money he makes, they don't take their time, and mistakes are made,

i do all my own work, unless it is covered under warranty,

i bought a brand new car in 2018, it has never been in a shop, i maintain it meticulously, and i intend on keeping it that way (for as long as possible anyway)


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I have a shop I have been going to for over 20-years. I take my vehicles there for anything I do not have the skill, tools or time to fix.

The only time I ever had to return for the same problem was a broken window motor that had been replaced. Less than a month later, the new motor failed. It turned out it was defective from the manufacturer. The shop replaced it at absolutely no cost to me and I had no further issues with it.

From the time I started going there, it has always been a 3-bay shop. Go there any day of the week and there are probably 20 vehicles waiting to get worked on. Despite this volume, I have never had to wait more than 2 days for a repair to get done and that because they had trouble getting the needed part.

Considering the volume of work they get, I asked the owner why he does not expand. He explained that if he did that, he would have to hire more mechanics and that would make it hard for him to ensure quality control. I think he or his shop manager, both who also work on the vehicles, inspects and signs off on all repairs that are done.

Sometimes they will go the extra mile. I have had a vehicle in for a repair in the same month it was to be inspected. When I picked up the vehicle, the inspection has been done (they do not do inspections) and I was not billed for it. Granted inspection is only $20, but they had to pay someone to take it to the inspection station.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Being able to DIY sure is good for the peace of mind of knowing the job was done right!


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## u2slow (Feb 9, 2012)

I've done that screw-up myself. Noticed what was happening (caliper banging around) and drove the last few blocks to a parts store with just gears and parking brake. The wheel keeps the caliper from falling off on newer vehicles.

Rooted through their misc bolt bin for something that fit and bought a $20 tool set to tighten it up. 

Lesson learned. I think about it every time I do brakes now.


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## pumpkin11 (Oct 31, 2020)

u2slow said:


> I've done that screw-up myself. Noticed what was happening (caliper banging around) and drove the last few blocks to a parts store with just gears and parking brake. The wheel keeps the caliper from falling off on newer vehicles.
> 
> Rooted through their misc bolt bin for something that fit and bought a $20 tool set to tighten it up.
> 
> Lesson learned. I think about it every time I do brakes now.


The single most important tool for anybody doing home auto work is a torque wrench,

It takes the guess work out of tightening bolts,

It should be the first tool any DIYer buys,


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## turbo4 (Jan 30, 2021)

Knowing a good honest mechanic is right up there with a good doctor or lawyer. Beware the shops that can get you right in(no customers)


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## u2slow (Feb 9, 2012)

pumpkin11 said:


> The single most important tool for anybody doing home auto work is a torque wrench


I agree. You do have to use it though... not just finger-tighten it... and forget


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

huesmann said:


> Being able to DIY sure is good for the peace of mind of knowing the job was done right!


Agreed. I do as much as I possibly can. Brakes, oil changes, tire rotations, blinker fluid, plugs, filters, belts etc.

But it is also important to know when something is beyond your capabilities and as trubo4 alluded, that is when having a good honest mechanic pays off.

Additionally, it is a good idea to keep one of these in the vehicle.










It is an OBD II reader that works with your phone via Bluetooth and a downloadable app.

Of course it does not have all the capabilities and functions of a shop model reader. But when you are driving down the road and that check engine light comes on, it can usually tell you if the problem requires stopping immediately and calling for a tow or if you can make it home or a repair facility. t less than $15 online, you cannot beat the cost.

I have already had to use mine once. Got a check engine light while driving home. Pulled over, plugged it in and pulled the code. It indicated an issue with an 02 sensor. On the way to the shop, the check engine light went out. Shop check the code, and since the light went out suggested the engine may have picked up some bad gas. Have not had the issue since.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

While away in the service in 1971, my then-wife, had transmission work done on her Nova.

Several weeks later I got home and she mentioned the engine had started running rough and wanted to take the car back to the same shop for them to fix this new problem.

I looked under the hood and found the rear engine block ground wire from the firewall had been carefully wrapped around the #6 spark plug wire and tied. What happed was that over time, the high current/voltage through the spark plug wire broke down the insulation of the wire due to the ground field tightly wrapped (all dielectric materials will break down over time - electrical engineer). I removed the "misplaced" ground wire and the engine immediately ran smoothly - so much for that shop getting any business from her again. If I hadn't gotten home I'm betting she'd have gotten the engine rebuilt by those professionals.


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## u2slow (Feb 9, 2012)

Fwiw, most Chrysler products will devulge their codes easily - no reader required.

An honest mechanic I can find. One that I can afford, and operates on my time/logistics level... I cannot. 

DIY till I die.


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## Norm202 (Apr 17, 2021)

That is why a shop you can trust is important. And the way to measure if a shop is good or not is how they remedy a mistake. Everybody can make a mistake but how they react and fix it is the true sign of how good they are. 
As far as doing your own work, well that is becoming questionable. Today's cars are harder and harder to work on due to electronics and special technical skills required. Even what use to be simple things like changing brakes can be a daunting task on some cars. Try changing a battery. That can be a challenge from where is it located to special torx tools or other tools not in everyone's tool box. To say nothing of having to reset all kinds of settings. I don't know what car it is but I understand that if a battery is disconnected, even when reconnected it must be towed to a dealer to get it to start again.


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## ZTMAN (Feb 19, 2015)

On more than on occasion a mechanic pulled my vehicle out of the shop with loose lugs. Last event was more than 20 years ago, but I still look at all of the lugs if a vehicle visits the shop.
Had a a Jeep Wrangler YJ I kept at our camp. Brought it to town for the annual inspection. Shop gave me a list of items that "needed" done including a rear main seal. Since it was just an off road camp JEEP i declined the work. When the manager found out about the loose lugs he was so upset that he had the mechanic replaced all of the studs and do all the "needed" work, including the rear main seal, for free.


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## Vaypur (May 24, 2021)

Drachenfire said:


> Agreed. I do as much as I possibly can. Brakes, oil changes, tire rotations, blinker fluid, plugs, filters, belts etc.
> 
> But it is also important to know when something is beyond your capabilities and as trubo4 alluded, that is when having a good honest mechanic pays off.


This is why I'm miserable. I've seen so much stuff that doesn't sit with me that I don't trust anyone including the dealership to touch my car now. Of course, now that I'm at this point, I've got lots of harder issues that I can't send the car off to someone to handle.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Vaypur said:


> This is why I'm miserable. I've seen so much stuff that doesn't sit with me that I don't trust anyone including the dealership to touch my car now. Of course, now that I'm at this point, I've got lots of harder issues that I can't send the car off to someone to handle.


I know how you feel, especially about dealerships. On two occasions, I took my truck to the dealership for recall notices. Both times as I am driving home, all my TPS sensors went off indicating low tire pressure. Some moron at the dealership had reduced the pressure to 28 psi on all the tires. Nominal pressure for my truck is 35 psi. I do not know if they were trying to get me to turn around and come back so they could try and charge me for work the truck did not need or they have an idiot doing "courtesy safety checks" who does not know a lug nut from a fan belt.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I own a shop here in southern Louisiana. ALL WHEEL LUGS are hit with a torque wrench if we pulled the wheel. Haven't had a wheel fall off since I opened 11 years ago. My help left a caliper slide loose. When it came back, I showed him how to recheck everything. Also, not to finger tight any bolt. Just start it and when you go over your work, you will see a bolt that's not tight. Especially lug nuts


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## Mike Milam (Mar 3, 2017)

Took the daughters 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude to a tire shop last week and they said they couldn't get the lugs off. They have a stupid sheet metal caps on them and when they get hot from driving, you can't get the correct size socket on them. They're 19MM which is a 3/4 inch. I had to jack it up in the driveway, drive a 3/4 impact socket one each one and break them loose. Tap the socket side to side until it came off and on to the next. I didn't like abusing my tools like that, but it's what it took. Loaded them in my pickup and took them and had tires put on and then put them back on. The lugs laid in the shade while I was gone and about half of them shrank enough for the socket to fit. I'm going to order some chrome regular lugs for. If she had a flat she would never get the wrench that came with the car on the lugs.


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## NitrNate (May 27, 2010)

Mike Milam said:


> Took the daughters 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude to a tire shop last week and they said they couldn't get the lugs off. They have a stupid sheet metal caps on them and when they get hot from driving, you can't get the correct size socket on them. They're 19MM which is a 3/4 inch. I had to jack it up in the driveway, drive a 3/4 impact socket one each one and break them loose. Tap the socket side to side until it came off and on to the next. I didn't like abusing my tools like that, but it's what it took. Loaded them in my pickup and took them and had tires put on and then put them back on. The lugs laid in the shade while I was gone and about half of them shrank enough for the socket to fit. I'm going to order some chrome regular lugs for. If she had a flat she would never get the wrench that came with the car on the lugs.


Man I hate those stupid lug nuts that are capped. Toyota is famous for that and over time the caps will get distorted a bit and make it hard to get the sockets on. You basically have to replace them.


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## Norm202 (Apr 17, 2021)

Brainbucket said:


> ALL WHEEL LUGS are hit with a torque wrench if we pulled the wheel.


I hate when they use an air torque wrench. In most cases it's nearly impossible to get the damn nuts off. I actually bent a "T" wrench when I had an emergency tire change on a country road. I always insist on a manual tightening of all lug nuts. 
How often do you calibrate the torque wrench?


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Norm202 said:


> I hate when they use an air torque wrench. In most cases it's nearly impossible to get the damn nuts off. I actually bent a "T" wrench when I had an emergency tire change on a country road. I always insist on a manual tightening of all lug nuts.
> How often do you calibrate the torque wrench?


A passenger vehicle is not a NASCAR race car. 

If the tire shop is not using a torque wrench on the lugs..., it is time to find another tire shop.


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## Norm202 (Apr 17, 2021)

Drachenfire said:


> A passenger vehicle is not a NASCAR race car.
> 
> If the tire shop is not using a torque wrench on the lugs..., it is time to find another tire shop.


They all use torque wrenches, but they don't calibrate them.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

My F150 has capped lug nuts. Several of them were damaged by standard sockets. I bought a set of new truck take offs from eBay. An impact socket that grabs the flats and not the points removes the lugs without damage.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Norm202 said:


> They all use torque wrenches,


Sadly not. I have seen places that just drive the lugs with an impact gun and leave it at that. In some cases I have had to deal with the aftermath usually requiring a breaker bar.


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## NitrNate (May 27, 2010)

For speed, most shops nowadays use torque sticks with an impact gun (either air or cordless). The torque sticks are generally fine but not very accurate. In any case, once a wheel is taken off and put back on, the initial torque, right or wrong will change once you drive on it so getting it perfect isn't that important. You always have to re-torque the lug nuts after about 25 miles. I usually check them again a few weeks later after that just to be sure.

Shops that just put the lugs on as hard as they can on full impact should never earn your business. This can warp rotors or break studs and you don't want either.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

The big problems come when the tire shop uses the zip gun to put the lug nut back on, but it's cross-threaded...


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

huesmann said:


> The big problems come when the tire shop uses the zip gun to put the lug nut back on, but it's cross-threaded...


...and then try to deny they did it or sandbag you as they try to get out of paying for the repair.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

pumpkin11 said:


> not because they don't have the KNOWLEDGE to fix cars properly, it is because they are too rushed,


Seen that many time. I've reached the point where I'm the only mechanic I trust.

Those little bluetooth diagnostic tools are really affordable. I paid less than $10 for mine. My buddy borrowed it from me and paid another $10 for the 'premium' software for it that makes it a very useful tool. It can track readings from several sensors at once and software allows you record simultaneous video on your phone or tablet as a reference.


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## turbo4 (Jan 30, 2021)

Good honest mechanics are worth their weight in gold ,right up there with your doctor and lawyer.


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## pumpkin11 (Oct 31, 2020)

HotRodx10 said:


> Those little bluetooth diagnostic tools are really affordable. I paid less than $10 for mine. My buddy borrowed it from me and paid another $10 for the 'premium' software for it that makes it a very useful tool. It can track readings from several sensors at once and software allows you record simultaneous video on your phone or tablet as a reference.


yes those scanners are well worth the money,

i paid a bit extra for mine to get one with more features,

mine can give real time performance/diagnostic data to my phone while i am driving, it also has many service features, like retracting the electronic parking brake while servicing the rear calipers, and much more,

here is the one i bought.....









Autel AP200 Obd2 Scanner Bluetooth Auto OBDII Diagnostic Scan Tool for iOS & Android, Full System Car Check Engine Light Code Reader with 25 Service Functions, Code Readers & Scan Tools - Amazon Canada


Autel AP200 Obd2 Scanner Bluetooth Auto OBDII Diagnostic Scan Tool for iOS & Android, Full System Car Check Engine Light Code Reader with 25 Service Functions in Code Readers & Scan Tools.



www.amazon.ca


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

pumpkin11 said:


> mine can give real time performance/diagnostic data to my phone while i am driving,


The one I bought, with the software upgrade, does that, also.


pumpkin11 said:


> it also has many service features, like retracting the electronic parking brake while servicing the rear calipers, and much more,


All my vehicles have manual parking brakes, so that wouldn't help me.

The ability it has to download model-specific diagnostic files could make it worth the money; that's one that mine doesn't do.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Thinking about untorqued lug nuts.

Decades ago, I had a new set of Winter tires put on my truck.

Got a block away, and could feel one wheel ticking every revolution.

Pulled over, and one rear wheel, the nuts were al loose.

I got out thr 4 way, and tightened them up.

From then on, after every tire service there, I would get out the 4 way, and check all my lug nuts, before leaving the lot.

Once Tom, came out and asked what I was doing , I explained, he had a fit at his crew, even after a few years past the incident. 

And now I just have two sets of wheels, with Summer tires, or Winter tires, and change them myself.

But being an old GIMP, prosthesis, it takes me nearly 2 hours to change 4 wheels / tires, by myself. 

This getting old crap ain't for sissies.

About the OP loose caliper, there ain't no excuse for that, pure laziness / stupidity / or carelessness.


ED


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> And now I just have two sets of wheels, with Summer tires, or Winter tires, and change them myself.
> 
> But being an old GIMP, prosthesis, it takes me nearly 2 hours to change 4 wheels / tires, by myself.
> 
> This getting old crap ain't for sissies.


I hear that, but you should be able to find a tire shop that would do it for you for a nominal fee. The tire shop where you bought the tires should do it for free. Mine would; if yours won't, I'd recommend looking for a new tire shop next time you need new tires, and I would ask them about doing the switch-overs.


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## pumpkin11 (Oct 31, 2020)

de-nagorg said:


> But being an old GIMP, prosthesis, it takes me nearly 2 hours to change 4 wheels / tires, by myself.


Nothing wrong with that, takes me even longer, but I'm not in any rush,

I like to take my sweet a$$ time when doing auto work and make sure it's done properly,

I'm a bit OCD, so when I change my tires summer/winter, I like to examine the ones I'm taking off,

I look at them for any screws or nails in them, or cuts, cracks, tears,

I also use a small screwdriver and pick out all the small rocks stuck in the treads,

After that I wash them and put them away for storage,

So all that takes me an extra 15-20 mins per wheel,

I use a torque wrench on my lugs to make sure they are perfect,

Also, when changing your tire or tires, your lugs should be re-torqued after about 50-100 miles of driving


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

pumpkin11 said:


> Nothing wrong with that, takes me even longer, but I'm not in any rush,
> 
> I like to take my sweet a$$ time when doing auto work and make sure it's done properly,
> 
> ...


That is one advantage of being RETIRED ( pun), you have time to 

SPARE ( pun).

Oh: I just love to have pun.

ED


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## u2slow (Feb 9, 2012)

My vehicles use oversize tires, which means most tire shops refuse to bolt them on. (liability they claim). Fine by me.

Cost/benefit of paying others to do light repairs and maintenance is quite ridiculous imho.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Okay, my neighbor has got to find a new mechanic. 

This past weekend he asked if I could help him do the next oil change as he suspected the shop did not put in the required 6-quarts at the last oil change. He changes oil every 3k miles using synthetic blend and he noticed the oil was significantly low and he was still a couple hundred miles out from the next change. 

This turned out to be just one of two issues.

I got the truck on on the jack-stands and went to pull the wheel as it makes it easier to work. 

I have an Ingersoll-Rand impact wrench used with a 20-gal, 2-cylinder single stage compressor which spins the lugs off my full-size truck with ease. When it came to my neighbors truck, I had to work at getting all those lugs off. It is obvious when he had the tires replaced awhile back, whoever did the job rammed the lugs on with an impact wrench until they stopped turning instead of just the required 140 ft-lbs of torque. This is the same shop that did the oil change. 

Before putting the lugs back on, I had to clean the studs and lugs of some sticky residue they put on the studs which was causing problems getting them back on by hand (I always start the lugs by hand to prevent possible cross-thread). This time they were torqued properly. 

Anyway, back to the oil issue. 

I got the old oil drained out and replaced the filter. After lowering the truck, I put in the required 6-quarts of oil which registered properly on the dipstick. I drained the old oil into the now empty 5-quart bottle to be taken to the recycle center. You can imagine our surprise when we realized all of the oil in the drain pan fit in that jug. I did not see any leaks under the truck so I asked my neighbor if he was getting any oil blow-by. He said he has not and there are no drips in his driveway where he regularly parks the truck.

It is possible oil is leaking under pressure but there would normally be signs of residue on the engine from this and as I said I saw no signs of leaking at all. 

My truck has a V6 same as his except 2-years newer. I change my oil about every 7K miles. I always get enough in the drain pan to fill the 5-gallon bottle and most of the 1-quart.

We found it unlikely his truck could burn a quart of oil in 2800 miles without some sort of indication such as a leak or smoke. I checked the coolant and it was clean. That leaves the most likely culprit being the shop failed to add the 6th quart of oil.

He is going to closely monitor the oil level. If there is no loss, than we were probably right about the shop shafting him. 

I feel bad for him. He normally did things like oil changes himself but now has health issues which prevent him from continuing to do so. It frustrates him when he has to deal with issues like this.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

Drachenfire said:


> Okay, my neighbor has got to find a new mechanic.
> 
> I have an Ingersoll-Rand impact wrench used with a 20-gal, 2-cylinder single stage compressor which spins the lugs off my full-size truck with ease. When it came to my neighbors truck, I had to work at getting all those lugs off. It is obvious when he had the tires replaced awhile back, whoever did the job rammed the lugs on with an impact wrench until they stopped turning instead of just the required 140 ft-lbs of torque. This is the same shop that did the oil change.


Back in the '60s working in the garage at a gas station (remember those - gas stations that had bays) we would often be allowed to do tire/oil changes and other relatively minor stuff. Nobody, not even the mechanics, thought to use torque wrenches back then, but everything was steel-on-steel. it was not uncommon with an annoying customer to simply lean on the impact driver.

I don't do my own oil changes anymore and usually use my regular indy shop but on occasion have used a 'quick lube' place. The decent ones will show you the dipstick when they are done.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Drachenfire said:


> We found it unlikely his truck could burn a quart of oil in 2800 miles without some sort of indication such as a leak or smoke.


It's very possible to not have any smoke from it burning that little oil, especially if it's blow-by or a bad intake valve seal. If it's all in one cylinder, you might see some black on the spark plug, but possibly not even that.

When I was a kid, we had a van that used a quart for every tank of gas (and it didn't go very far on a tank-full). No smoke; no leaks. Several of the intake valve seals were broken. The only indication of where the oil was going was that the spark plugs were black instead of brown.

I try to check oil in all my vehicles every 1k miles. I have one that needs a quart about every 3k, so far. Also no leaks and no smoke, nor even discolored spark plugs. It has about 180k miles on it. The Toyota van we have with 230k on it doesn't burn enough to need any between 7k oil changes.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

HotRodx10 said:


> It's very possible to not have any smoke from it burning that little oil, especially if it's blow-by or a bad intake valve seal. If it's all in one cylinder, you might see some black on the spark plug, but possibly not even that.
> 
> When I was a kid, we had a van that used a quart for every tank of gas (and it didn't go very far on a tank-full). No smoke; no leaks. Several of the intake valve seals were broken. The only indication of where the oil was going was that the spark plugs were black instead of brown.
> 
> I try to check oil in all my vehicles every 1k miles. I have one that needs a quart about every 3k, so far. Also no leaks and no smoke, nor even discolored spark plugs. It has about 180k miles on it. The Toyota van we have with 230k on it doesn't burn enough to need any between 7k oil changes.


This is the first time he has had the issue hence the suspicion about the shop. I guess time will tell. If he gets through the next 3k miles with no significant loss of oil, then in all probability, the shop did screw up.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Drachenfire said:


> This is the first time he has had the issue hence the suspicion about the shop. I guess time will tell. If he gets through the next 3k miles with no significant loss of oil, then in all probability, the shop did screw up.


Sounds like a reasonable approach. Not really a big deal either way; it's good practice to check it periodically, anyway.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

And if he is still questioning them, have them change it again, and check the stick, before you start it up to leave.

That way you have it on-site, and if low, ask where did the oil go,


As an aside, synthetic is supposed to last double or triple what the manufacturer recommends as change intervals.

So changing it every 3000 miles, is wasting the high cost of Synthetic.

ED


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> As an aside, synthetic is supposed to last double or triple what the manufacturer recommends as change intervals.
> 
> So changing it every 3000 miles, is wasting the high cost of Synthetic.
> 
> ED


He is running synthetic blend which it what the manufacturer recommends. He should be able to go to at least 5K based on his OLM reading. I have advised him to just follow the OLM. It will save him money and he unlikely to have any issues.

I run full on synthetic in my truck and change the oil when the OLM gets to 5%. This get me 7k and sometimes a little more between oil changes.


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## wjpelka (8 mo ago)

Educate yourself by watching some You Tube videos prior to any work being done. Sure, there are some horrible videos out there, but some are very professional. Many parts vendors have their own like 1A Auto. I have learned a lot about Automotive Diagnostics. It is an Art Form. Many Different scanners out there. And just because a code says that you have a problem, such as a bad oxygen sensor heater, does not mean that you need a new sensor. Could be the wiring or maybe just a blown fuse. And the car manufacturers make it very had for the DIY's to fix their own stuff. Even with a $5000 scanner, Chrysler requires that you register it with them, for $50 a year, to gain access to the car. Watch a few videos from Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics or South Main Auto... You will get hooked on how Eric O and Ivan go about fixing cars. Just think how great it would be if either of these 2 were YOUR Mechanic.


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