# Wavy roof! Need opinions/advice



## stickner

Hey all - we just has a new home constructed and are having some "issues" with the roof.

There are many noticeable humps and bumps in the roof. After a lot of research, we *think* that the problem is with the rafters.

Specifically, we think that the rafters may be installed with some crown side up and others crown side down. This is causing a "wavy" appearance. Assuming this is what is going on, 2 questions :



What are the dangers of having some rafters crown up and others crown down?
How can this be fixed (I am afraid I already know the answer to this)
If you have any other thoughts on what might be causing this, I am all ears!

Thanks,

Stickner


----------



## Hardway

stickner said:


> Hey all - we just has a new home constructed and are having some "issues" with the roof.
> 
> There are many noticeable humps and bumps in the roof. After a lot of research, we *think* that the problem is with the rafters.
> 
> Specifically, we think that the rafters may be installed with some crown side up and others crown side down. This is causing a "wavy" appearance. Assuming this is what is going on, 2 questions :
> 
> 
> 
> What are the dangers of having some rafters crown up and others crown down?
> How can this be fixed (I am afraid I already know the answer to this)
> If you have any other thoughts on what might be causing this, I am all ears!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stickner


 
any picture of the roof?


----------



## titanoman

They probably used 7/16" osb over trusses (that rarely sag) spanned 24", as it's the cheapest way to build. 
It's normal for the sheeting to sag a little between the trusses.
And it really stands out when there's frost on the roof, as the trusses are the last to melt due to density.


----------



## stickner

Here are some pictures, but pictures aside, what do you think the dangers are of having some rafters crown up, and other rafters crown down?


----------



## ParagonEx

There aren't really any major dangers. That is the result of laziness from the framers.


----------



## titanoman

Well, since seeing the pictures...
Are these trusses or rafters?
There's no danger even though the board is slightly weaker, just really looks bad.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> They probably used 7/16" osb over trusses (that rarely sag) spanned 24", as it's the cheapest way to build.
> It's normal for the sheeting to sag a little between the trusses.
> And it really stands out when there's frost on the roof, as the trusses are the last to melt due to density.


They used solarboard (an OSB product)
http://www.solarbordosb.com/

Here is a pic from when it was under construction.


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> They used solarboard (an OSB product)
> http://www.solarbordosb.com/
> 
> Here is a pic from when it was under construction.


Never heard of such a thing. Must be new within the last 10 years.
Don't like the way they frame any of that either. 
Not very good carpenters at all.
Must have been piecework.


----------



## Hardway

Content removed by writer. I don't have knowledge of this type of construction


----------



## Hardway

stickner said:


> They used solarboard (an OSB product)
> http://www.solarbordosb.com/
> 
> Here is a pic from when it was under construction.


I don't like this construction all ready and know nothing about it!


----------



## titanoman

Hardway said:


> I don't like this construction all ready and know nothing about it!


It's called a stick-framed California.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> Never heard of such a thing. Must be new within the last 10 years.
> Don't like the way they frame any of that either.
> Not very good carpenters at all.
> Must have been piecework.


More pics from when it was under construction.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> Well, since seeing the pictures...
> Are these trusses or rafters?
> There's no danger even though the board is slightly weaker, just really looks bad.


So here is the real question... Is it bad enough to force the builder to fix it so it doesn't look bad? And I assume trying to fix this problem would be a MAJOR undertaking?

What would you do if it was your house? Do you think I am right with guessing that some rafters are crown up, and others are crown down and that is causing the waviness?


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> So here is the real question... Is it bad enough to force the builder to fix it so it doesn't look bad? And I assume trying to fix this problem would be a MAJOR undertaking?
> 
> What would you do if it was your house? Do you think I am right with guessing that some rafters are crown up, and others are crown down and that is causing the waviness?


The drywall will look just like the roof in that vault.
It may not be an upside-down crown either; some of them may just be crowned more than the others. Those should have been called out, not used.
I don't know where the "splitting hairs" would be; I would definitely bring this to the sellers attention.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> I don't know where the "splitting hairs" would be; I would definitely bring this to the sellers attention.


What do you mean when you say "I don't know where the splitting of hairs would be"?

Also - this is my home - I am the buyer of this house.


----------



## Windows on Wash

You will probably be hard pressed to legitimately claim any sort of defect as a result of the aesthetic impact.


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> What do you mean when you say "I don't know where the splitting of hairs would be"?
> 
> Also - this is my home - I am the buyer of this house.


No offense to you, but most new home buyers complain about every little thing. If contractors had to go back and replace every board that a knot fell out of, or a board that moved a little after it was installed, it's the nature of a living, moving product, then all the builders would be out of business and we wouldn't have any new houses to buy.
But, and I don't know if it's the angle or the sun, that's really bad.
If you are buying it from the builder, they'll come and at least see what's up, and try to pacify you till another day.
If the builder is a 3rd party, it may be a little more difficult.
Raise your concern. Tell him everybody is laughing at the lumps in your house and it's ruining every aspect of your being.
Just kidding.


----------



## mae-ling

Is the ceiling/vault drywalled now? does it look the same? If it is that wavy then you got to look at it all the time, not good!!!!!!!!!


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> No offense to you, but most new home buyers complain about every little thing. If contractors had to go back and replace every board that a knot fell out of, or a board that moved a little after it was installed, it's the nature of a living, moving product, then all the builders would be out of business and we wouldn't have any new houses to buy.
> But, and I don't know if it's the angle or the sun, that's really bad.
> If you are buying it from the builder, they'll come and at least see what's up, and try to pacify you till another day.
> If the builder is a 3rd party, it may be a little more difficult.
> Raise your concern. Tell him everybody is laughing at the lumps in your house and it's ruining every aspect of your being.
> Just kidding.


No offense taken. Things have been "challenging" with this builder from the start. For example, here are a few pictures of one of our foundation walls. The wall sat like this for over a week before WE pointed it out to the builder. How they thought this was acceptable is beyond me.


----------



## mae-ling

Can you get out of your contract? It seems maybe your going to find things as you live there.


----------



## titanoman

mae-ling said:


> Can you get out of your contract? It seems maybe your going to find things as you live there.


They took shortcuts wherever they thought it would hide and nobody would see it. 
I would suggest another building inspector look around just for peace of mind because you just never know...
I'm sure the builder has this one in his pocket.


----------



## Windows on Wash

mae-ling said:


> Can you get out of your contract? It seems maybe your going to find things as you live there.


This....



titanoman said:


> They took shortcuts wherever they thought it would hide and nobody would see it.
> I would suggest another building inspector look around just for peace of mind because you just never know...
> I'm sure the builder has this one in his pocket.


and this too!!!

Run, don't walk, from this builder.


----------



## Roofmaster417

I have seen alot of homes with the same issues.That was about 5 years ago when everybody and their brother was a homebuilder.Or at least thought they were.

Most of these homes are still left incomplete.The property is over grown the framing is a very dark gray color and the builder lost his a**.

Nobody has to explain the importance of the trust factor between the homebuilder and the homeowner who he is building for.Problems arise on every build.But the key is to limit the problems that arise and control the situation.I have heard some bad luck stories but majority is due to the builders.,1.Inexperience 2.Miscommunication.,3.Irresponsibility

You can compare the relationship between a contractor and homeowner to erosion.The river is the actions of the contractor and the island is the relationship between the both.The more problems and doubt that is created/caused the more soil that is removed from the island.Once an area becomes weak the accelerated process of erosion is pulling more and more from the island until the trust and confidence has been eaten away leaving nothing.

If a builder or any contractor or anyone that provides a service for someone continously loses that trust and confidence factor then your time in business is on a count down to extinction.

Once you start putting up homes that look like yours it does not take long before this guy is setting on homes that customers have backed out on.Once a builder starts making payments to the bank on a property that is setting finished or incomplete that gets very costly.I know a builder.,great guy personally,but he should not be a homebuilder and he put up about 7 homes like yours and sold 1.He made payments on 6 homes that were in the upper $500,000.00 range.He lost everything and is about 3.3 million in debt.

How many homes has this guy built?.,If all is as you say it is I would contact my attorney and have him review your contract.

I would definitely hook and book on this one.

If you are amused by my island erosion comparison you should hear my comparison of fast food drive thru and 3rd grade play grounds..


----------



## justincase123

Run a string line where the rafters are setting on the top 2 plates. This is where the rafters are cut by the framer. If the cuts are off, it will show up in the string line there. Crowns are usually in toward the middle of the rafter. You can get this effect if the framer got off on his cuts. I would have a professional framer check this and tell you if it is framing error or just crowns.


----------



## tinner666

Please go out and take some more pix of the roof, from the outside. And not into the sun either! 
That looks like at least one unnailed sheet of sheathing to me. Looks like the bottom edge is up causing a hump/drop-off. and near the valley, it looks like an end curled up.


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> How many homes has this guy built?.,If all is as you say it is I would contact my attorney and have him review your contract.


They have literally built thousands of homes in the area as well as countless commercial buildings. The company is many decades old. 

We just moved here from out-of-state and did our homework as best we could. Everything turned up pretty decent, but for whatever reason, it has been a horrible experience for us.


----------



## tinner666

Can you get the picture(s) I asked for earlier?


----------



## stickner

tinner666 said:


> Can you get the picture(s) I asked for earlier?


Hi Tinner, I just haven't had a chance to get out there during daylight hours. I will try in the next day or two. Thanks for your help!


----------



## stickner

tinner666 said:


> Can you get the picture(s) I asked for earlier?


Finally it wasn't raining - and I had a chance to get out there and take some pics during daylight hours. Here they are.


----------



## stickner

tinner666 said:


> Can you get the picture(s) I asked for earlier?



Finally it wasn't raining - and I had a chance to get out there and take some pics during daylight hours. Here they are.


----------



## ParagonEx

Wow. Terrible framing. Did they use sheathing clips?


----------



## stickner

ParagonEx said:


> Wow. Terrible framing. Did they use sheathing clips?


In post #7 of this thread, you can see a close-up picture of the under-side. There are clips between the deck boards (I assume that is what you are referring to).

I am no roofer, but this certainly doesn't look right to me.


----------



## MJW

It's rather obvious there is a problem with the ventilation and/or insulation, and /or the vapor barrier. Any pics of any of the insulation or ventilation?

I really don't know how they expected that to work with only 3" space for insulation in the ceiling.

Did this house get inspected? What building code was used for the construction?


----------



## chende9

fixing this type of problem is difficult and would involve jacking up your roof trusses from inside the attic ... this was obviously stick built instead of prefab ... other than the asthetics of a horrible looking roof there are no real dangers from this happening.

Chris Hendershot
Master Roofer
North Georgia area


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> It's rather obvious there is a problem with the ventilation and/or insulation, and /or the vapor barrier. Any pics of any of the insulation or ventilation?
> 
> I really don't know how they expected that to work with only 3" space for insulation in the ceiling.
> 
> Did this house get inspected? What building code was used for the construction?


Hi MJW,

I am not sure what you mean when you refer to the 3" of spacing? And when you mean pics of insulation/ventilation, what specifically are you looking for? Don't mean to ask dumb questions, but I have minimal knowledge about this stuff. 

Yes - they house was inspected. The town I live in uses the 2006 International Building Code.


----------



## stickner

chende9 said:


> fixing this type of problem is difficult and would involve jacking up your roof trusses from inside the attic ... this was obviously stick built instead of prefab ... other than the asthetics of a horrible looking roof there are no real dangers from this happening.
> 
> Chris Hendershot
> Master Roofer
> North Georgia area


Yep -that's the understanding we are starting to come to. There may not be any structural issues here, just the aesthetics. The big problem with that is when we go to sell the house. 

The next buyer is going to look at that roof and say, "WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH YOUR ROOF?!?!?! I WANT A LOT OF MONEY OFF THE PURCHASE PRICE TO FIX IT". 

So if you were me, what "expert" would you bring in to officially document what is wrong? Would a roofing company be good enough to document that "something" is wrong? Do I need to bring in a general contractor, or some type of house framing specialist/engineer?


----------



## ParagonEx

stickner said:


> Yep -that's the understanding we are starting to come to. There may not be any structural issues here, just the aesthetics. The big problem with that is when we go to sell the house.
> 
> The next buyer is going to look at that roof and say, "WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH YOUR ROOF?!?!?! I WANT A LOT OF MONEY OFF THE PURCHASE PRICE TO FIX IT".
> 
> So if you were me, what "expert" would you bring in to officially document what is wrong? Would a roofing company be good enough to document that "something" is wrong? Do I need to bring in a general contractor, or some type of house framing specialist/engineer?


I think you should call in a structural engineer.


----------



## stickner

ParagonEx said:


> I think you should call in a structural engineer.


We will add that to the list of people to call in... We are also dealing with big HVAC issues... You can read all about it here:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/major-pressurization-issue-130907/


----------



## ParagonEx

What is the history with this builder? Are they still in business?


----------



## loneframer

More than anything else, that is a problem with the sheathing expanding and buckling. You may have a few unruly rafters, but I don't see it. I do see every horizontal and vertical seam of 4x8 sheets. It is without a question in my mind, an issue with improper spacing of the sheets. Those horizontal lines are buckled seems in the sheathing. They cannot be caused by crowning of lumber.


----------



## loneframer

Looking at those framing pics, I want to add that I'm hard pressed to criticize anything that I can see from those pics. It looks very clean to me. It's a good possibility that a different crew was there to sheath that building.

It's also possible that the sheathing crew allowed the required spacing and the sheets swelled beyond those parameters. Typically, the clips automatically space the sheets, although I like to open them up slightly more. End spacing is something that few framers do, but is important to avoid the exact issue you are dealing with. Could very well be from excessive moisture in the ventilation cavity, or a lack of one thereof.


----------



## stickner

ParagonEx said:


> What is the history with this builder? Are they still in business?


They are. They are actually one of the larger residential AND commercial builders in the area.


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> More than anything else, that is a problem with the sheathing expanding and buckling. You may have a few unruly rafters, but I don't see it. I do see every horizontal and vertical seam of 4x8 sheets. It is without a question in my mind, an issue with improper spacing of the sheets. Those horizontal lines are buckled seems in the sheathing. They cannot be caused by crowning of lumber.


Thanks for your input. The more we look at this, the more I think your observation is the correct one. Two questions for you (or anyone else):



Would it be true to say that the only way this can be fixed is to pull everything off (including the sheathing) and start over?
Let's say nothing is done about it, will the sheathing become more and more buckled (warped) each year?


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> Could very well be from excessive moisture in the ventilation cavity, or a lack of one thereof.


Any suggestions on how we can determine if this is an issue?


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> Thanks for your input. The more we look at this, the more I think your observation is the correct one. Two questions for you (or anyone else):
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be true to say that the only way this can be fixed is to pull everything off (including the sheathing) and start over?
> Let's say nothing is done about it, will the sheathing become more and more buckled (warped) each year?


1. There is no way to address this from underneath, even if it's not insulated and rocked.

2. Depending upon the cause of the condition, it may or may not get more pronounced.

I'm not familiar with that particular product, so I can't comment on it's behavior to certain conditions.

If it is solely from the sheets growing in length and width due to relative humidity, similar products will typically stabilize at a specific point.

It's also a possibility that the sheets are experiencing edge swelling that results in a change in thickness of the product as well. OSB products are more prone to thickness swelling than typical CDX plywood.

There are many variables that could play a role as well. It's possible that the moisture absorption took place before the roofing material was even installed, which would not indicate an ongoing moisture issue.

The bottom line is, unfortunately, that the only way to truly correct this issue is to remove and replace, although a slight chance exists that relieving the cuts would suffice if done correctly and there is no thickness swelling.


----------



## Roofmaster417

That is HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.,.,I don't know where to start.First off I would have NEVER installed a roof over that garbage. :furious:!!!!!!!!!.,.,Wait.,., Was this something that progressed or was it like this afterwards?


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> That is HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.,.,I don't know where to start.First off I would have NEVER installed a roof over that garbage. :furious:!!!!!!!!!.,.,Wait.,., Was this something that progressed or was it like this afterwards?


This is a new build... The house is only months old. It has been this way for quite some time. 

The more I read and learn (thanks to everyone here!), the more I realize this is probably an edge-swelling issue with the OSB. I learned that what my pictures are showing is called "telegraphing". 

There could be a few reasons the edges swelled (assuming that is what it is). The first possibility, and the one I am hoping for, is that OSB boards were exposed to moisture before or right after installation.

The second possibility is that there is a moisture problem in the attic. Definitely a bigger issue and one I am hoping is not the problem. 

So how would I know what is truly causing the edges of the OSB to swell (assuming that is what it is)?

Found this great article:
http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/shingleridging.pdf


----------



## Roofmaster417

Could you post some pix of your truss to plate bracing preferrably the rafter tails.?.,Unless the O.S.B has been subjected to extreme amounts of direct moisture/constant while they were banded or on site then I have mixed feelings about them being the sole issue.

The plywood institute recommends O.S.B to see some moisture prior to installation and in some cases after.


----------



## loneframer

I'd start researching the sheathing product to see if there have been other complaints about it.

I'm basing my opinion on nearly 30 years in construction, of which nearly 20 was primarily framing.

You will have some variation in material dimension and also lumber crowns. Some unevenness is to be expected, although anything more than slight should not.

Lumber is also subject to changes in dimension and crown during the first 12 months or so due to the stabilization of moisture in the material. The framer can't be held responsible for something he has no control over.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few new products introduced to the market that didn't hold up to their product claims. I'd like to see some pictures of the building with no shingles over the sheathing, from either inside or out.

I still find nothing about those framing pics to be suspect. Every aspect looks very clean.

I'm 100% certain that it's sheathing related, either due to installation or product failure.

If I had to venture a guess, I think it's a spacing issue that may have been amplified by wetting of the roof deck before shingle installation. It's also possible that the bundled sheets were exposed to high levels of moisture before installation.

If the edges were swelled before installation, this condition was easily avoidable.


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> I'd start researching the sheathing product to see if there have been other complaints about it.
> 
> I'm basing my opinion on nearly 30 years in construction, of which nearly 20 was primarily framing.
> 
> You will have some variation in material dimension and also lumber crowns. Some unevenness is to be expected, although anything more than slight should not.
> 
> Lumber is also subject to changes in dimension and crown during the first 12 months or so due to the stabilization of moisture in the material. The framer can't be held responsible for something he has no control over.
> 
> Over the years, I've seen quite a few new products introduced to the market that didn't hold up to their product claims. I'd like to see some pictures of the building with no shingles over the sheathing, from either inside or out.
> 
> I still find nothing about those framing pics to be suspect. Every aspect looks very clean.
> 
> I'm 100% certain that it's sheathing related, either due to installation or product failure.
> 
> If I had to venture a guess, I think it's a spacing issue that may have been amplified by wetting of the roof deck before shingle installation. It's also possible that the bundled sheets were exposed to high levels of moisture before installation.
> 
> If the edges were swelled before installation, this condition was easily avoidable.


As an FYI, 90% (or more) of the homes in our section of the sub division have the same problem.


----------



## tinner666

stickner said:


> As an FYI, 90% (or more) of the homes in our section of the sub division have the same problem.


 And just keep on cranking them out, eh? Sheeeeesh! :furious:


----------



## Roofmaster417

If that was my house this is what I would do.Since all the homes in your immediate area contain the same problem and for some reason nobody is really concerned (besides you).And for the fact they are still building without regard.

I would contact the nearest University that has an architecture major/engineering etc..If you invite about 60 up and coming architects/engineers to your neighborhood as an extra curricular activity as a source of future structural concerns I think they would jump on the opportunity to find the culprit..

I am confused as to why they are still building.We are having about 10-15 homes going up everyday but nothing looks like what is being built in your subdivision.


----------



## jmiller

Roofmaster417 said:


> I would contact the nearest University that has an architecture major/engineering etc..If you invite about 60 up and coming architects/engineers to your neighborhood as an extra curricular activity as a source of future structural concerns I think they would jump on the opportunity to find the culprit..


That is not a structural problem. Standard OSB gets installed tight all too often, but generally doesn't look that bad. 

My guess is that sheathing was allowed to get wet before the roof was installed, and after it was installed there was no way for it to dry inwards toward the attic because there is a radiant barrier on the underside acting as a vapor barrier. Depending on the underlayment used, the moisture could have been completely trapped.


----------



## Roofmaster417

It is recommended for O.S.B to get wet before installation.But how wet the decking was is the question.Maybe a call to the plywood distributor and manufacture is needed.

I have roofed new construction that has been in the weather 2 or 3 weeks before it was roofed.I have seen nothing like that.


----------



## titanoman

gopher59 said:


> Normal construction is 1/2" to 5/8" sheeting over 16" center rafters. At least 3/4" sheeting over 2' center rafters. You definitely have a framing problem and the roofers should never have put the roof on this. This goes back to the general contractor and his framers and is his responsibility. Hold all funds immediately!


5/8" is prefered for 2' o/c, even though 7/16" osb is real common.
You don't need to go 3/4" just because the rafters are 2' o/c.


----------



## MJW

I think jmiller is right and kinda what I was getting to also.

As for OSB, most of it here is 1/2" on 24 inch centers with clips. None look like that. I have done a house that the OSB was rained on for 2 months while the framer was out of town. It swelled up to over an inch thick. The homeowner acting as the GC said "roof it, I don't care. It needs to be covered up". We roofed it. This was 5 years ago now and there still isn't any problems and it doesn't show any effects like these pics.


----------



## titanoman

gopher59 said:


> Oh well, here we go again mjw, funny how I never hired you to do my roof. You cannot use 1/2" or even 5/8" sheeting unless you are at least 16"oc (guess I have to explain to you what oc means, that means each rafter is 1-1/2" and from center of one rafter (3/4") to the next is 16") If you are 2' oc, you need at least 3/4. Go fly a kite somewhere and quit getting on here and acting like you are a roofer when it is obvious to everyone here you are fos.


Apparently you are a newbie in the construction world. I don't think anybody here is going to agree with you. 
Have you ever heard of plywood clips? Do you know what they are for? School me, would you.
Oh. And o/c stands for the Officer of the Order of Canada, doesn't it? Isn't that what you're talking about?


----------



## loneframer

gopher59 said:


> Oh well, here we go again mjw, funny how I never hired you to do my roof. You cannot use 1/2" or even 5/8" sheeting unless you are at least 16"oc (guess I have to explain to you what oc means, that means each rafter is 1-1/2" and from center of one rafter (3/4") to the next is 16") If you are 2' oc, you need at least 3/4. Go fly a kite somewhere and quit getting on here and acting like you are a roofer when it is obvious to everyone here you are fos.


I've been building new homes since 1985 and have seen hundreds of trussed roofs on 2' centers with 7/16" OSB or 1/2" plywood and clips. I know exactly what OC means and back MJWs statements completely.

Jmiller brings up a good point with the foil face on the sheathing product. That is suspect to me as well.


----------



## titanoman

Sorry, gopher. You addressed mjw earlier and I thought you were talking to me. 
My real bad.


----------



## MJW

It really doesn't matter what you say gopher. It is what it is. I have plenty of experience and not going to get into a pissing match with you. I really don't care how much experience you have or don't have. I don't want to rip on you personally, but what I said is *true* and what you said is *false*. That's it.


----------



## loneframer

gopher59 said:


> well, all I can say is this, we have engineers in our family, not gonna say if I am one or not- noyb- Most every REPUTABLE builder knows darn well not to put 5/8" 1/2" and most definitely not 7/16 (which is even less than 1/2") on 2' centers. Did you not graduate high school math class?


Did you ever see the span ratings stamped on the back of the sheets? I'm assuming someone had to engineer those ratings, no?

I'm not saying a thicker sheet isn't better, but I know what I know and code is code. I've never seen anything more than 5/8 on a roof with 2' centers and 99 out of 100 are 1/2" ply or 7/16 OSB.


----------



## Jackofall1

This may be helpful to resolve the on going debate with the gopher

http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el807.pdf

Note page #2 span ratings table

Mark


----------



## titanoman

gopher59 said:


> So many I can't count! And lots of barns, as well. I have never put 7/16 on 2', nor will I ever. I never use less than 3/4osb or plywood on 2'. My preference is 16"oc 2x6" rafters, braced to keep them straight and 5/8" sheeting. Then 30lb felt, drip edge, galvanized flashing or thick aluminum, shingles hanging over 1", preferably before the drip edge, I put aluminum coil over the fascia and gutter boards, then I run seamless gutter, use gutter hangers and larger downspouts, but I don't know how to build a roof, what a joke!:laughing:


I apologized earlier, but I'm about to lose it on you.
EVERY NORMAL CARPENTER PUTS EITHER 7/16" OSB OR 5/8" PLY ON 24"O/C RAFTERS. YOU'RE THE ONLY PERSON ON THIS WHOLE FORUM THAT DISAGREES.


----------



## oh'mike

Gopher---duck out of this thread---no more posts in this thread for you--you are spoiling the post for the homeowner---

Do it or I'll do it for you-----MODERATOR---oh'mike---


----------



## oh'mike

Sorry for the interruption---please carry on---

Any more post on this thread by gopher will mean a temporary loss of membership---Mike---


----------



## stickner

Wow - just got back on my computer after a really long day... Sorry to see you guys had to deal with an unruly poster. Thanks to the mod for taking care of things and getting us back on track.

I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback. It is because of this forum, and the people on it, that we are finally starting to get some good answers that we can run with.

I got the following in an email earlier today from the builder. I believe they are trying to stall as long as possible so that they are that much closer to their 1 year warranty expiring:

_"the roof evaluation will take place when it is 80 degrees plus for a few days"
_​The builder said it has to be really warm for several days for them to get a true sense of what is going on. I know they are just stalling. If you have read our thread on our HVAC issue, we are in the process of bringing in an attorney to fight for our rights.


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> Wow - just got back on my computer after a really long day... Sorry to see you guys had to deal with an unruly poster. Thanks to the mod for taking care of things and getting us back on track.
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback. It is because of this forum, and the people on it, that we are finally starting to get some good answers that we can run with.
> 
> I got the following in an email earlier today from the builder. I believe they are trying to stall as long as possible so that they are that much closer to their 1 year warranty expiring:
> 
> "the roof evaluation will take place when it is 80 degrees plus for a few days"
> The builder said it has to be really warm for several days for them to get a true sense of what is going on. I know they are just stalling. If you have read our thread on our HVAC issue, we are in the process of bringing in an attorney to fight for our rights.


Sorry for everybody getting off topic.
Good luck with your plight.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> Sorry for everybody getting off topic.
> Good luck with your plight.


No worries titan. This thread has helped me out more than you realize!!! It has been incredibly valuable!!


----------



## Roofmaster417

titanoman said:


> It's supposed to get wet?! What are you on?


I should have been a bit more descriptive with my post.

Sub grade O.S.B will not withstand moisture very well and will swell.Premium APA O.S.B is a better product that has higher levels of water repelling ability.
I believe it is Exp 1.I might be wrong.It can handle several weeks of exposure.

But exposure means normal dews,frosts and a couple of rains.I don't think they call Seattle type rains or monsoon type or leaving the plywood submerged for any period or nestled in mud normal.Hahahahaha

As far as the recommendation for O.S.B to see some moisture it is true.I found it within an analysis report from the APA.I will find it and post the link.

Some have said that the premium O.S.B can be left dried in for 6 months providing a sealer is applied on any cut joints.But as with anything materials have a limit and they all have a line that once crossed exceeds the materials capabilities.

*To the OP do you by chance have a material delivery list from the supplier that delivered the O.S.B?.,Perhaps you have a low grade O.S.B product.*

Geeez.,I always miss the Diy drama.,.,This was the first thread I have ever read on the internet where the moderator told someone not to post anymore.

Generally that approach isn't used.,Believe it or not I have been banned from a forum.,Hahahahaha.,imagine that.:laughing:

Showing some true professionalism Oh'Mike.I never got a warning.,I tried to log on and was blocked only to sit a wonder.,what ever could I have done ?


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> *To the OP do you by chance have a material delivery list from the supplier that delivered the O.S.B?.,Perhaps you have a low grade O.S.B product.*


This is the product they used:

Main Web Site
http://www.solarbordosb.com/

A bunch of documents and extra info:
http://www.solarbordosb.com/documents


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> *To the OP do you by chance have a material delivery list from the supplier that delivered the O.S.B?.,Perhaps you have a low grade O.S.B product.*


And again, as I stated earlier, pretty much every house in our area of the subdivision has the same looking roof problem. Maybe 30-40 houses in total...


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> I got the following in an email earlier today from the builder. I believe they are trying to stall as long as possible so that they are that much closer to their 1 year warranty expiring:
> _"the roof evaluation will take place when it is 80 degrees plus for a few days"
> _​The builder said it has to be really warm for several days for them to get a true sense of what is going on. I know they are just stalling. If you have read our thread on our HVAC issue, we are in the process of bringing in an attorney to fight for our rights.


Well, you don't have to worry about that problem going away when the temps rise, I promise you that. Make sure you document everything carefully. Phone calls, letters, E-mails....

Make prints of those pics and mail them to yourself to have a postmark date on the package. Keep the package sealed unless needed in court to prove the issue existed before the warranty expired.


----------



## loneframer

Found this in the document.

http://www.solarbordosb.com/wp-content/themes/solarbord/pdf/OSB_Sheet_March10.pdf

*Exposure to Moisture* – All rated Norbord OSB has an Exposure1 bond classification. Although panels should not be directly exposed
to the weather or moisture on a continuous basis, the Exposure 1 on Norbord OSB indicates that unprotected exposure during ordinary
construction periods will not adversely affect the structural properties. *Exposure to adverse moisture conditions could result in edge
swell. Sanding may be required to level uneven edges prior to finish-covering application. *Exposure to certain moisture conditions could
also result in development of mould and mildew.


Also...
*Solarbord on Roofs*



Make sure rafter alignment is uniform and square.
*Allow a minimum of 1/8” spacing between ends and edges of panels.*
Check local building codes for roof ventilation requirements.
For maximum performance, protect Solarbord panels from moisture prior to and during installation. Exposure to certain moisture conditions could result in development of mould & mildew.
Cover roof as soon as possible with shingle underlayment (or #15 roofing felt) to protect panels from weather. If construction delays are anticipated, cover with #30 roofing felt.
Place Solarbord Radiant Barrier Sheathing panels on rafters – foil side facing down, toward the attic air space.
Do not allow insulation or other materials to come in contact with foiled surface of Solarbord. Maintain minimum 3/4” airspace. The use of baffles may be required to maintain the air space.
Use 8d nails to fasten Solarbord panels to rafters at a minimum of 6” on center at supported panel ends and edges, and 12” on center at intermediate supports. Check your local building codes.
Cover roof as soon as possible with shingle underlayment (or #15 roofing felt) to protect panels from weather. If construction delays are anticipated, cover with #30 roofing felt.
Allow Solarbord Radiant Barrier Sheathing to adjust to atmospheric conditions before installing shingles. (Heavier weight or textured shingles provide better performance than lightweight fiberglass shingles).
Fastener spacing*


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> Well, you don't have to worry about that problem going away when the temps rise, I promise you that. Make sure you document everything carefully. Phone calls, letters, E-mails....
> 
> Make prints of those pics and mail them to yourself to have a postmark date on the package. Keep the package sealed unless needed in court to prove the issue existed before the warranty expired.


Good advice. We have been putting together our "book" of issues with all documentation. Good idea on mailing myself some information/pics. I am definitely going to do that.

More follow-up phone calls with attorneys tomorrow. I think several are really chomping at the bit to take our matter...


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> And again, as I stated earlier, pretty much every house in our area of the subdivision has the same looking roof problem. Maybe 30-40 houses in total...



Looking more and more like an installation issue with improper spacing. That's not absolute though. Still could be several other causes, such as the gapping recommendations not being sufficient.

I had a builder read me the riot act one time because I gapped all my wall and roof sheets with 8D nails. Three days in the humid salt air and the gaps were gone....


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> *Allow a minimum of 1/8” spacing between ends and edges of panels.*


One of the things we brought up months ago was that there might not be the proper spacing between the 4 foot edges of the boards. Our home inspector ventured that as a guess. We shared this with the builder, and the builder contacted the company that makes solarbord, and this is the company's response.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> One of the things we brought up months ago was that there might not be the proper spacing between the 4 foot edges of the boards. Our home inspector ventured that as a guess. We shared this with the builder, and the builder contacted the company that makes solarbord, and this is the company's response.


I agree that the performance of the product hasn't been compromised....

the appearance of the builders product most certainly has.

Cases like this burn my BVDs because regardless of price, many framers don't take the time to read product literature or follow guidelines.

It's fast as hell to drop and blast down sheets when no care is given to spacing. I've been guilty of it myself before I knew any better. I was taught the wrong way.

People look at framers as unskilled tradesmen and many of them are.

That's a damn shame for the ones who truly see it as an art and spend many years honing their craft to become talented craftsmen.


----------



## MJW

I am reluctant to think this is a spacing issue.

Although, this is a product that I have never worked with before.

Has anyone used this type of sheathing?

I think everyone should look at the framing pics once more. There is living space with only a 2x6 between it and the roof sheathing....and can lights.......... or maybe I am seeing something wrong.....

This "cool roof" sheathing could be the culprit altogether by itself.


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> I am reluctant to think this is a spacing issue.
> 
> Although, this is a product that I have never worked with before.
> 
> Has anyone used this type of sheathing?
> 
> I think everyone should look at the framing pics once more. There is living space with only a 2x6 between it and the roof sheathing....and can lights.......... or maybe I am seeing something wrong.....
> 
> This "cool roof" sheathing could be the culprit altogether by itself.


Another pic - a bit more close-up.


----------



## stickner

I haven't even mentioned the major water leak we had during construction. This is what it looked like *after* it had dried out for a day and a half...


----------



## loneframer

MJW said:


> I am reluctant to think this is a spacing issue.
> 
> Although, this is a product that I have never worked with before.
> 
> Has anyone used this type of sheathing?
> 
> I think everyone should look at the framing pics once more. There is living space with only a 2x6 between it and the roof sheathing....and can lights.......... or maybe I am seeing something wrong.....
> 
> This "cool roof" sheathing could be the culprit altogether by itself.


In those framing pics, I don't see any rafters smaller than a 2x10, unless I'm losing my eyes...

That being said, I think the sheathing product could be the culprit as well.

There's just too many variables that come into play to know for sure.

One thing I know without a question in my mind and that is this. I've seen what happens when improperly spaced sheets are wetted and expand and it looks exactly like those pics.

I'm seriously suspicious of those foil backed panels, but without a history of product complaints, it's hard to point a finger that direction.


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> I haven't even mentioned the major water leak we had during construction. This is what it looked like after it had dried out for a day and a half...


Where did the water come from?
They did sheetrock (and some trim, base before the doors? That's odd.) before the house was weather-tight?
These people are full of surprises.
Are there any water marks on the underside of the roof sheeting, esp. where the roof looks bad?


----------



## tinner666

I'd like to see the nailing pattern and I'm curious if they shot the nails 3/4 through the OSB. Lots of jobs sites I go on, the framers feel the last 1/16" of the sheathing will hold everything down.


----------



## Roofmaster417

That is a nasty tape job on the drywall.I am wondering if Tinner might be right.Maybe the decking is blown through.I am just bewildered by the way the decking is telegraphed through the shingles.I have seen a sheet or 2 show through but not ever sheet,every course on every slope.

I tried running a search on Google about any product recalls and also tried consumer report complaints about the product and found nothing.Not to say it isn't somewhere online I just could not find anything.

Where is Bob Villa when you need him. :laughing:


----------



## titanoman

All this theorizing and the op could easily climb on that scaffolding and dig around with a screwdriver or a chisel and find out what the edge of the sheeting looks like.
And put their eyeball on the rafter just to make sure it's not a crowned rafter right where the sheet breaks.


----------



## Windows on Wash

This thread needs 100 posts...


----------



## Roofmaster417

titanoman said:


> All this theorizing


 
Now why did you have to go and spoil the fun?????.,Hahahahaha.,Actually I appreciate all the knowledgeable inputs.


----------



## Windows on Wash

Roofmaster417 said:


> Now why did you have to go and spoil the fun?????.,Hahahahaha.,Actually I appreciate all the knowledgeable inputs.


What...am I chopped liver (cat reference).

I supply the comedic relief in this case.

On a serious not, I feel very bad for this client. This looks like a fubar to say the least.

Get everything in writing as mentioned previously and it might be time to engage an attorney (as much as I hate to recommend that).


----------



## MJW

loneframer said:


> In those framing pics, *I don't see any rafters smaller than a 2x10*, unless I'm losing my eyes...


Ok, just wondering how they stuffed R39 in there and chutes for ventilation. Let alone the can lights in there too.


----------



## Roofmaster417

stickner said:


> I haven't even mentioned the major water leak we had during construction. This is what it looked like *after* it had dried out for a day and a half...


 
How did your home sustain so much water damage after the installation of ,roof,windows,siding etc?

What was used as the drying process?


----------



## loneframer

MJW said:


> Ok, just wondering how they stuffed R39 in there and chutes for ventilation. Let alone the can lights in there too.


I'm no expert in energy codes, so I can't comment, but I'd bet that reflective sheathing is part of the package that gets them within code...


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> Where did the water come from?
> They did sheetrock (and some trim, base before the doors? That's odd.) before the house was weather-tight?
> These people are full of surprises.
> Are there any water marks on the underside of the roof sheeting, esp. where the roof looks bad?


The water leaked in through a couple of small sections of the roof. We had 9 inches of rain in 36 hours. It poured into the house. On both side of the "main" dormer on the second floor, they were still working on the brick. They hadn't yet finished that area of brick and it also wasn't flashed. The flashing job was also brutal by the way - pics below. Haven't pointed that out yet...

We FORCED them to halt construction for roughly 3 weeks as the house dried out. We also FORCED them to tear off all the sheetrock and throw away all the insulation. We also FORCED them to let us bring in a mold remediation expert to do extensive testing and remediation. 

Yes - they were well along with interior work before the outside was completely weather-tight. Yes - I realize how stupid this is on their part. I was extremely vocal about this issue when it happened...


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> That is a nasty tape job on the drywall :laughing:


All of the drywall you see there is located in what is "unfinished" knee-wall storage areas.


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> Ok, just wondering how they stuffed R39 in there and chutes for ventilation. Let alone the can lights in there too.


The code in my town is the 2006 International building code...

So I understand, are you saying that on my vaulted ceiling, they should have space in there so there can be some airflow?


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> Ok, just wondering how they stuffed R39 in there and chutes for ventilation. Let alone the can lights in there too.


I looked, and I don't really have any good pics of the vaulted ceiling after the insulation went up, but before the sheetrock went on. This is about all I have. The vaulted ceiling is on the far right in this picture.

That insulation is definitely packed into that cavity - they definitely did not leave any room behind it for air flow... Are they supposed to as per code?


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> I'm no expert in energy codes, so I can't comment, but I'd bet that reflective sheathing is part of the package that gets them within code...


Nope. That reflective sheathing does NOT have any impacts on insulation code as far as I know.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> Nope. That reflective sheathing does NOT have any impacts on insulation code as far as I know.


Maybe doesn't increase R-value, but has no other purpose than to increase energy efficiency.

If there is no baffle system installed in that vaulted ceiling, there is not much sense in having the ridge vent installed.

I'd love to do an archaeological study on your neighborhood.:whistling2:


----------



## Roofmaster417

loneframer said:


> I'd love to do an archaeological study on your neighborhood.:whistling2:


I was thinking the same thing.,I bet that is where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.:laughing:

Seriously though why ?


----------



## loneframer

Roofmaster417 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.,I bet that is where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.:laughing:
> 
> Seriously though why ?


Just a figure of speech. I'd like to completely disect that house and examine "the bones".

I'm dying to see what that sheathing looks like under those shingles.


----------



## Roofmaster417

loneframer said:


> Just a figure of speech. I'd like to completely disect that house and examine "the bones".
> 
> I'm dying to see what that sheathing looks like under those shingles.


 
That would be a definate way of finding out.What would he have to lose?.,I would pull 4 or 5 right on the seam and have a look see..


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> Just a figure of speech. I'd like to completely disect that house and examine "the bones".
> 
> I'm dying to see what that sheathing looks like under those shingles.


We will definitely get there soon. Here is the best I can do for now:


----------



## stickner

I personally reached out to Norbord today. They are the company that makes the roof decking that was used. I spoke with someone, and also received the email reply below. 

-------------------------------

Thank you for the e-mail and for sending the photos. To address your question after reading your e-mail and looking at the photos you provided here are some comments. 

There are several things that can cause edge swell in structural sheathing:

- attic spaces that are not properly ventilated 

- dryer,bathroom fans/vents etc are vented into the attic space 

- water has penetrated the roofing material and getting to the sheathing (not likely in this case considering the roof area involved)

- improper installation of the sheathing

- the sheathing was wet prior to or just after installation and the roof was not allowed to completely dry and any required steps may not have been taken before the roofing material was installed, trapping the moisture between the roofing material and the sheathing

In your e-mail you say this condition existed when you moved into the house and that indicates the cause to be one or both of the last two points likely being the cause. This is not a structural or a radiant barrier issue but rather a construction issue.

I hope I have addressed your question.


----------



## Roofmaster417

This might be nothing but how long was the framing exposed to the elements before it was decked?.,If so how long and how continous was the moisture and what type of moisture ?


----------



## Ravenworks

I would be beside myself if some hack took a Partner saw and cut into my mortar joints like that.
I have been following this thread closely and amazed at the poor workmanship,I feel sorry for you.
Building a home is suppose to be a great adventure,not misadventure.


----------



## stickner

Ravenworks said:


> I would be beside myself if some hack took a Partner saw and cut into my mortar joints like that.
> I have been following this thread closely and amazed at the poor workmanship,I feel sorry for you.
> Building a home is suppose to be a great adventure,not misadventure.


Thanks for the sympathy. As frustrated and dejected as we are, it could always be worse. We are trying to make it through this horrendous experience as best we can.

We thought we were building our dream house... the one we would spend the next 20-30 years in. I am not sure we are going to make it to 30 weeks much less 30 years.

As corny as it may sound, my family is healthy, we have food on the table, and all joking aside we have a roof over our head (although its a shy one at that)... 

I honestly think about those families that have young children with cancer, and how they have to make the trip each week to a place like St. Jude's. I am positive they would trade places with us in a heartbeat. So keeping it in perspective, we don't have it that bad. 

All of that aside, that doesn't mean I think the builder should be able to walk away from this travesty scott-free. They should have to do whatever it takes to make it right.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> I personally reached out to Norbord today. They are the company that makes the roof decking that was used. I spoke with someone, and also received the email reply below.
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> Thank you for the e-mail and for sending the photos. To address your question after reading your e-mail and looking at the photos you provided here are some comments.
> 
> There are several things that can cause edge swell in structural sheathing:
> 
> - attic spaces that are not properly ventilated
> 
> - dryer,bathroom fans/vents etc are vented into the attic space
> 
> - water has penetrated the roofing material and getting to the sheathing (not likely in this case considering the roof area involved)
> 
> - improper installation of the sheathing
> 
> - the sheathing was wet prior to or just after installation and the roof was not allowed to completely dry and any required steps may not have been taken before the roofing material was installed, trapping the moisture between the roofing material and the sheathing
> 
> In your e-mail you say this condition existed when you moved into the house and that indicates the cause to be one or both of the last two points likely being the cause. This is not a structural or a radiant barrier issue but rather a construction issue.
> 
> I hope I have addressed your question.


Well, that E-mail covers everything that's already been mentioned except for product failure. Coming from the manufacturer, no big surprise.:laughing:

I see they used Zip-Wall for wall sheathing. It's a shame they didn't use the Zip system on the roof.

By all indications, I see nothing in that house that indicates the builder cutting corners. From engineered lumber for floor joists, Advantech decking, Zip-Wall sheathing, cabinet blocking....all top shelf IMO.

I do agree with the manufacturer that moisture definitely played or still plays a role in the issue. The fact that every home in the neighborhood shares that commonality leads me to believe it might be a ventilation concern.

One thing that caught my eye in that last photo is the fact that they papered in the entire roof before shingling. That shows an attempt at least to keep moisture off of the roof decking. The problem with that is, felt paper is not completely waterproof. After it is wet, it will expand and become more permeable, wicking water through to the other side. The good thing is, that characteristic also helps to speed drying. 

If the building got rained on between the time that paper went down and the shingles went on, it's a good possibility that edge swell would have occured. This also would lead to the sheets growing dimensionally, possibly enough to cause buckling at the seams.


----------



## Windows on Wash

+1

What a worthless response from the manufacturer but to be expected.

They covered their arse in fantastic fashion there.


----------



## MJW

stickner said:


> I looked, and I don't really have any good pics of the vaulted ceiling after the insulation went up, but before the sheetrock went on. This is about all I have. The vaulted ceiling is on the far right in this picture.
> 
> That insulation is definitely packed into that cavity - they definitely did not leave any room behind it for air flow... Are they supposed to as per code?


Well, IMO....there is your answer. It doesn't help that the house had water damage before it was finished either. Lots of moisture in that house trying to get out. Along with no vapor barrier and the roof isn't ventilated. Inadequate insulation to boot.

All that moisture in the house slowly gets through that craft faced insulation and is coming through the seems on the sheathing causing the underlayment and the shingles to buckle up.

Look at the instructions with the norbord product. It says it must be ventilated.


----------



## Arkitexas

I went to the Solarbord web site and reviewed the Norbord OSB decking. Solarbord rates their 3/8" decking as acceptable for 24" joist spacing for roof decks. Since many builders install the minimum rated decking, you may well have the 3/8" board. Check the label visible from the underside.

With that in mind here are my comments. First, OSB (Oriented Strand Board) has an earned reputation for swelling and warping when exposed to minor amounts of moisture. This includes roof decking which is advertised to be treated for minor moisture exposure. OSB swells and delaminates more than most other engineered wood products with the exception of particleboard. Second, contrary to manufacturer's hype, OSB fails when it comes to deflection compared to standard plywood of the same thickness. Third, decking manufacturers notoriously overrate their products to encourage builders to use theirs over the competition (being thinner, the cost per SF is less). Thus they tend to promote decking that is not suitable for the spans listed. It may be structurally "safe" but it will deflect under its own weight. I think that this may be what you are experiencing. Lastly, neither 3/8" plywood nor 3/8" OSB should be used on any roof deck even with 16" joist spacing. Locally, the custom home builders never use OSB (of any thickness) on roof decks but rather plywood in 7/16" to 5/8" thickness spanning 16" centers and 5/8" to 11/16" thickness spanning 24" centers. In the case of apartment builders, they use the cheapest stuff available and their construction suffers the consequences. Your OSB deck is probably structurally safe but that doesn't mean that it will look good.

In my opinion, when you buy a custom home you have the right to expect the craftsmanship to be straight and neat as well as structurally sound. Otherwise you would have been happy with a mobile home. 

The following OSB vs. plywood paper is probably a too but you might find it interesting.
www.civil.ualberta.ca/structures/reports/SER199Zhao,ChengandBach.pdf

Rick


----------



## stickner

Arkitexas said:


> I went to the Solarbord web site and reviewed the Norbord OSB decking. Solarbord rates their 3/8" decking as acceptable for 24" joist spacing for roof decks. Since many builders install the minimum rated decking, you may well have the 3/8" board. Check the label visible from the underside.
> 
> With that in mind here are my comments. First, OSB (Oriented Strand Board) has an earned reputation for swelling and warping when exposed to minor amounts of moisture. This includes roof decking which is advertised to be treated for minor moisture exposure. OSB swells and delaminates more than most other engineered wood products with the exception of particleboard. Second, contrary to manufacturer's hype, OSB fails when it comes to deflection compared to standard plywood of the same thickness. Third, decking manufacturers notoriously overrate their products to encourage builders to use theirs over the competition (being thinner, the cost per SF is less). Thus they tend to promote decking that is not suitable for the spans listed. It may be structurally "safe" but it will deflect under its own weight. I think that this may be what you are experiencing. Lastly, neither 3/8" plywood nor 3/8" OSB should be used on any roof deck even with 16" joist spacing. Locally, the custom home builders never use OSB (of any thickness) on roof decks but rather plywood in 7/16" to 5/8" thickness spanning 16" centers and 5/8" to 11/16" thickness spanning 24" centers. In the case of apartment builders, they use the cheapest stuff available and their construction suffers the consequences. Your OSB deck is probably structurally safe but that doesn't mean that it will look good.
> 
> In my opinion, when you buy a custom home you have the right to expect the craftsmanship to be straight and neat as well as structurally sound. Otherwise you would have been happy with a mobile home.
> 
> The following OSB vs. plywood paper is probably a too but you might find it interesting.
> www.civil.ualberta.ca/structures/reports/SER199Zhao,ChengandBach.pdf
> 
> Rick


Thanks for the post - great info.


----------



## stickner

I have 2 appointments scheduled for tomorrow. Both companies coming out saw the pictures and were pretty surprised that this is a new build... 

I was on the phone explaining the issue to one of them, and while we were talking sent him the email with the pics of the roof. He opened the email while we were still on the phone and blurted out: "HOLY , THAT IS HORRIBLE". :laughing:

It made me chuckle a bit. Looking forward to getting professional in-person evaluations. But thanks a million to everyone on here. I owe you all for your advice and information.

As you can probably guess, I am not going away - I will keep you all updated as thing unfolds...


----------



## Roofmaster417

stickner said:


> I owe you all for your advice and information.


I can wait for my payment till later.,:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I wish you luck.And PLEASE.,keep us up to date.So is anyone interested in taking online bets as to what the real problem will be?.,I have $100.,:thumbsup:


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> I have 2 appointments scheduled for tomorrow. Both companies coming out saw the pictures and were pretty surprised that this is a new build...
> 
> I was on the phone explaining the issue to one of them, and while we were talking sent him the email with the pics of the roof. He opened the email while we were still on the phone and blurted out: "HOLY , THAT IS HORRIBLE". :laughing:
> 
> It made me chuckle a bit. Looking forward to getting professional in-person evaluations. But thanks a million to everyone on here. I owe you all for your advice and information.
> 
> As you can probably guess, I am not going away - I will keep you all updated as thing unfolds...


Yes, please keep us updated. I think there well over 100 posts in this thread; that's a lot of people that want to know what the problem is and hoping this is made right for you without having to hire lawyers and have sleepless nights thinking your brand new beautiful home is your new nightmare.
May I ask again how the interior, including sheetrock and trim, got wet? Surely the home was weather tight before interior finish was started, no?


----------



## stickner

Arkitexas said:


> I went to the Solarbord web site and reviewed the Norbord OSB decking. Solarbord rates their 3/8" decking as acceptable for 24" joist spacing for roof decks. Since many builders install the minimum rated decking, you may well have the 3/8" board. Check the label visible from the underside.


Hmmmm... I just checked the Owens Corning website to read about our shingles. This is what I found in their installation instructions:

Roof Deck:
• 6" Maximum roof deck boards
• Minimum 3⁄8" plywood
• Minimum 7⁄16" OSB

If you are correct, and they have 3/8" OSB up there, they installed the wrong thing... I wish I could peek up in the attic right now and look, but our child is sleeping and my wife would kill me if I wake her up! 

Something is telling me that they installed the 3/8" stuff... I seem to remember that....

EDIT: What does 6" maximum roof deck boards mean?


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> I can wait for my payment till later.,:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> I wish you luck.And PLEASE.,keep us up to date.So is anyone interested in taking online bets as to what the real problem will be?.,I have $100.,:thumbsup:


The real problem is that we hired a  builder.


----------



## loneframer

Roofmaster417 said:


> So is anyone interested in taking online bets as to what the real problem will be?.,I have $100.,:thumbsup:


I think it's a combination of everything mentioned in this thread. The Perfect Storm, so to speak.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> Yes, please keep us updated. I think there well over 100 posts in this thread; that's a lot of people that want to know what the problem is and hoping this is made right for you without having to hire lawyers and have sleepless nights thinking your brand new beautiful home is your new nightmare.
> May I ask again how the interior, including sheetrock and trim, got wet? Surely the home was weather tight before interior finish was started, no?


No it wasn't completely sealed up... This is what it looked like. They were finishing the brick on the upper sides... It was open into the house... It was like this for a few weeks.


----------



## MJW

I'll bet that what I said is correct.

I have to ask, was the house heated and lived in before this problem occurred?

There is a ton of info that came out after the original post, and it was very important.

I don't buy the swelling of the sheathing. I posted my experiences and that would not show through those shingles. If it did, it wouldn't only show at the seams. It would be every 2 ft. on the rafters.


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> I'll bet that what I said is correct.
> 
> I have to ask, was the house heated and lived in before this problem occurred?
> 
> There is a ton of info that came out after the original post, and it was very important.
> 
> I don't buy the swelling of the sheathing. I posted my experiences and that would not show through those shingles. If it did, it wouldn't only show at the seams. It would be every 2 ft. on the rafters.


You said: "It's rather obvious there is a problem with the ventilation and/or insulation, and /or the vapor barrier." 

When I crawl up in my attic today, I will take some pics for you and post them. Anything specific you want me to look for? I looked through my pics, and this is the only one I have that shows ventilation example.


----------



## stickner

MJW said:


> I have to ask, was the house heated and lived in before this problem occurred?


No. This house was built in the summer, and AC was used. The heat *may* have been turned on at the tail-end before we took occupancy, but I don't believe it was cold enough to need heat.


----------



## Kent Builders

In your two last pics the roof is mostly on and it looks ok. No problems. It also shows they used propavent (sp?). Not my favorite method, but it should be breathing enough to prevent major moisture issues. Dd they use an interior vapor barrier like poly on the inside of the walls, or is it just Kraft paper on the fiberglass.


----------



## titanoman

stickner said:


> You said: "It's rather obvious there is a problem with the ventilation and/or insulation, and /or the vapor barrier."
> 
> When I crawl up in my attic today, I will take some pics for you and post them. Anything specific you want me to look for? I looked through my pics, and this is the only one I have that shows ventilation example.


What the...why has sheetrock between ripped-off on a new home?
I sure wish I was a fly on the wall from the beginning of construction to today.


----------



## Kent Builders

titanoman said:


> What the...why has sheetrock between ripped-off on a new home?
> I sure wish I was a fly on the wall from the beginning of construction to today.



That's probably an area where the roof leaked and they pulled sheetrock and insulation to dry it out.


----------



## loneframer

One question that should have been addressed is, at what point in time was this issue noticed?

We're all speculating without this important piece of the story. If the problem didn't surface until construction was complete, MJW is most likely correct in the ventilation theory. If it was noticeable before insulation, that's a different colored horse.


----------



## framer52

Lone, i think that there will have to be some removal of roofing to determine the exact problem


----------



## MJW

loneframer said:


> One question that should have been addressed is, at what point in time was this issue noticed?
> 
> We're all speculating without this important piece of the story. If the problem didn't surface until construction was complete, MJW is most likely correct in the ventilation theory. If it was noticeable before insulation, that's a different colored horse.


The more that unfolds here, the more we have to rethink...it seems. 

Interesting to say the least....


----------



## stickner

Morning Wood said:


> In your two last pics the roof is mostly on and it looks ok. No problems. It also shows they used propavent (sp?). Not my favorite method, but it should be breathing enough to prevent major moisture issues. Dd they use an interior vapor barrier like poly on the inside of the walls, or is it just Kraft paper on the fiberglass.


I don't believe there is any poly on the inside of the walls. I am 99% sure of this.

Here are some pics of the attic:


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> What the...why has sheetrock between ripped-off on a new home?
> I sure wish I was a fly on the wall from the beginning of construction to today.


That was when we had the major water leak.. they had to tear out all the sheetrock, and replace all the insulation. They let the house dry out for 3 weeks. Also brought in a mold remediation expert and extensive testing was done, including air quality testing. 

We had to fight them on making this right, but they eventually did do things our way.


----------



## loneframer

framer52 said:


> Lone, i think that there will have to be some removal of roofing to determine the exact problem


I agree entirely. I'd rip a few squares myself at no charge just to get a look-see.:laughing:


----------



## framer52

7/16 osb is the material

Looks like you either have bad osb or bad installation, either way you need to get an engineer involved, unless your builder will agree to dissect a portion of the roof to determine the problem.


----------



## framer52

loneframer said:


> I agree entirely. I'd rip a few squares myself at no charge just to get a look-see.:laughing:


Can we get a paid trip to Kentucky?:no:


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> One question that should have been addressed is, at what point in time was this issue noticed?
> 
> We're all speculating without this important piece of the story. If the problem didn't surface until construction was complete, MJW is most likely correct in the ventilation theory. If it was noticeable before insulation, that's a different colored horse.


It was noticed at the tail end of October. But looking back through th epics, I can see it in some of them. 

The felt paper went on around 8/5 or 8/6. The shingles were put on sometime between 8/7 and 8/10.

This is a pic of the roof on 8/20. On the far left side, you can definitely see the outlines of each 4x8 sheet. 

The house was definitely NOT INSULATED at this point and you can see the outlines in the roof.


----------



## stickner

Another pic from 8/20 - just a bit zoomed in


----------



## stickner

framer52 said:


> Lone, i think that there will have to be some removal of roofing to determine the exact problem


This is what our builder said they are going to "eventually" get around to doing... They said, and I quote:

*"the roof evaluation will take place when it is 80 degrees plus for a few days"*​I asked why they had to wait until it was consistently that warm just to do an EVALUATION.... They said:

_*"Because of the inconsistency of the wintertime weather pattern"*_​


----------



## stickner

framer52 said:


> Can we get a paid trip to Kentucky?:no:


You can, but we are in TN!!!


----------



## stickner

framer52 said:


> 7/16 osb is the material
> 
> Looks like you either have bad osb or bad installation, either way you need to get an engineer involved, unless your builder will agree to dissect a portion of the roof to determine the problem.


As you will see in another post, they said they are going to do this, but they need to wait until it is consistently in the 80's to do this... That makes no sense to me... I think they are just stalling. Each day that passed is one day closer to the 1-year builder warranty expiring.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> It was noticed at the tail end of October. But looking back through th epics, I can see it in some of them.
> 
> The felt paper went on around 8/5 or 8/6. The shingles were put on sometime between 8/7 and 8/10.
> 
> This is a pic of the roof on 8/20. On the far left side, you can definitely see the outlines of each 4x8 sheet.
> 
> The house was definitely NOT INSULATED at this point and you can see the outlines in the roof.


OMG!!! This is a key piece of evidence! IMO, it takes the wind out of the sails as far as ventilation is concerned....

Stay tuned folks, the plot thickens....:huh:


----------



## stickner

OK - so we had 2 roofing companies come out today. 

They were both a bit surprised to say the least. Especially as they looked around the neighborhood and could see 20 houses within eye-sight that had the same exact problem. 

After seeing the pictures, the first company brought 4 guys out here to evaluate. I suppose that this is something you professional roofers dont see everyday, so I think their curiousity was peaked - and that is why they sent so many people. I am interested to get their feedback and proposal.

The second company is apprehensive to take on this job until they figure out exactly WHY this has happened. The fact that I found pictures from 8/20 that shows humps leads me to believe this is probably not a ventilation issue. The house was still pretty open at that point - no sheetrock, no insulation, etc... Would you all agree?

The second company climbed up into the attic to have a closer look see. They found that the spacing between our rafters is not uniform at all. he found some that are 22.5", others that are 20", and others that are 18". He didn't crawl all the way down measuring, he will do that next time he comes... 

He plans to bring in a few more experts to help assess the situation. they are being very thorough. He was also wondering about the "breathability" of the wood with that radiant barrier material on it. 

Looking forward to getting him back out here soon.


----------



## stickner

Oh - forgot to mention, I was chatting with the guy from the second company for a while. We were standing outside as the sun was going down and it provided some GREAT lighting to see many of the other houses in our neighborhood.

He looked me square in the eye and said, "I have never seen anything like this before... where you can see the outline of every 4x8 sheet on every house in your neighborhood." He said as a roofer, it felt a bit "surreal" to him - like he was in a bad dream or something. 

I said: "man - this ain't no dream - this is my reality!"


----------



## framer52

Sorry thought for some reason you were in Kentucky.

I could use a paid vacation to Bristol say when the race is:whistling2:


----------



## stickner

framer52 said:


> Sorry thought for some reason you were in Kentucky.
> 
> I could use a paid vacation to Bristol say when the race is:whistling2:


You can definitely come stay with us. Bring your gear - I got a roof that needs mending!


----------



## framer52

The bad news is I believe the reflective boards are the cause of your problem.

second, spacing of the rafters is not that critical as long as they don't exceed 24" centers


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> The second company climbed up into the attic to have a closer look see. They found that the spacing between our rafters is not uniform at all. he found some that are 22.5", others that are 20", and others that are 18". He didn't crawl all the way down measuring, he will do that next time he comes...
> 
> He was also wondering about the "breathability" of the wood with that radiant barrier material on it.
> 
> Looking forward to getting him back out here soon.


As far as rafter spacing, odd layouts are not uncommon on a roof of that nature. To stick frame that is reasonably complicated and sometimes hip/valley jacks are cut in pairs for speed and they don't necessarily match the common rafter layout. This is not an issue unless the spacing is greater than 22.5" between 2 members, which is the maximum spacing as per the sheathing specs. There are other scenarios that can alter layout as well. The key is being within maximum spacing limits.

The roofer was justified in his concerns with the breathability of the product. That may be a key factor as this plays out.


----------



## stickner

framer52 said:


> The bad news is I believe the reflective boards are the cause of your problem.
> 
> second, spacing of the rafters is not that critical as long as they don't exceed 24" centers


Do you mean the product itself is not good, or something happened with our particular boards (they got really wet and they installed wet product?)

My wife pointed out something interesting - one of the last couple houses is under construction and they have been leaving building stuff laying around - somewhat covered - somewhat not. 

I am going to pay close attention to how the treat all the sheathing.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> You can definitely come stay with us. Bring your gear - I got a roof that needs mending!


Keeping a sense of humor in the midst of adversity. I commend you.:thumbup:


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> The roofer was justified in his concerns with the breathability of the product. That may be a key factor as this plays out.


Interesting... I would hate to put the same stuff up again, only to have it swell again.


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> Do you mean the product itself is not good, or something happened with our particular boards (they got really wet and they installed wet product?)
> 
> My wife pointed out something interesting - one of the last couple houses is under construction and they have been leaving building stuff laying around - somewhat covered - somewhat not.
> 
> I am going to pay close attention to how the treat all the sheathing.


You might want to take up a new hobby and document a few upcoming builds with lots of pics. :detective:


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> OMG!!! This is a key piece of evidence! IMO, it takes the wind out of the sails as far as ventilation is concerned....
> 
> Stay tuned folks, the plot thickens....:huh:


I need to ask.... I assume that it is a GOOD thing that we may have ruled out this being a ventilation problem?


----------



## loneframer

stickner said:


> I need to ask.... I assume that it is a GOOD thing that we may have ruled out this being a ventilation problem?


Well, as a whole, it makes me feel better about the general design of the building.

If it can be traced back to a product liability, you have a better chance of getting it rectified than you do by bankrupting the builder with a neighborhood full of warranty claims.


----------



## firehawkmph

framer52 said:


> The bad news is I believe the reflective boards are the cause of your problem.


I somehow missed this thread till now. Just finished reading all the posts. Interesting to say the least. The above statement was one of my first thoughts when I first started in. I'm wondering if the foil is reflecting the heat right back up through the felt and shingles, causing them to swell up, not necessarily the sheathing. Your earlier pics with just the felt on show the roof sheathing looking pretty flat. Your finished pics show the horizontal swelling occuring right where the felt overlaps. I'm thinking the shingles are getting overly heated. 
On a related note: Years ago, on new homes with vinyl siding, one of the local cities made you put foil paper on the sheathing prior to siding. The foil was on one side of the paper, with the other side being brown. Everybody was installing the paper with the foil side out. They had a lot of problems with the siding expanding too much due to being heated up from the reflective foil. This was before tyvek was around. Keep us posted and let us know what you find. I'm betting a total strip and resheat the roof with plywood and then reroof.
BTW, did the flashers ever caulk the mortar joints they cut into for the flashing returns?
Mike Hawkins


----------



## MJW

Wow, thanks for taking all those pics and still getting back to us with more info!

Just because it wasn't insulated or heated doesn't necessarily mean we can rule out a ventilation problem. New houses have a ton of moisture in them. All the wood, cement, people, etc, etc...

Whatever it may be.....moisture, heat, cold, demons, whatever it is, it's trying to get out of that attic and living space, and it's coming through the seams.

^^^^firehawk has some good points too. I wonder if this sheathing product is going to be the ultimate culprit and have a large law suit on their hands.......


----------



## joeh20

What effect would a load of bad shingles have on this condition. Not shingles that just flat out leaked, but didn't shed all their moisture very fast. Kinda spongy. It is a good pitch but could they be bad. Could the shingle company be cutting corners to save on asphalt with oil at $100 a barrel. Could they be using Soy asphalt or something new that doesn't work. It didn't look like the seams were bad with the felt paper on. But after the shingles went on it showed. Did the nails that penetrated the foil barrier let moisture from the house get under the felt and it was absorbed by the osb at the edges. 
I'm already in TN please elaborate as to who built this or where this happened. I'd like to see.


----------



## Kent Builders

I don't think bad shingles would be the complete cause of this. Especially on 20-30 houses. Is the builder buying that many shingles at once and just storing them on site? I'm not really familiar with that scale of construction.


----------



## framer52

joeh20 said:


> What effect would a load of bad shingles have on this condition. Not shingles that just flat out leaked, but didn't shed all their moisture very fast. Kinda spongy. It is a good pitch but could they be bad. Could the shingle company be cutting corners to save on asphalt with oil at $100 a barrel. Could they be using Soy asphalt or something new that doesn't work. It didn't look like the seams were bad with the felt paper on. But after the shingles went on it showed. Did the nails that penetrated the foil barrier let moisture from the house get under the felt and it was absorbed by the osb at the edges.
> I'm already in TN please elaborate as to who built this or where this happened. I'd like to see.



The shingles are not the problem. it could be the felt wasn't flat when the shingles were laid except you can see the outline of all of the plywood used.


----------



## Roofmaster417

Shingles would not be a factor.Underlayment ?.,Maybe.,but the chances of every home looking like that would be slim.

The thing to remember is with the amount of homes in the area that resemble this it has to be an issue that is associated with one or 2 things that everyone of these homes share.

Is it a requirement in that subdivision for every home to have Solarbord?

The fact is.,every home that is like this share the same link or connection that this home has been exposed to.


----------



## titanoman

loneframer said:


> As far as rafter spacing, odd layouts are not uncommon on a roof of that nature. To stick frame that is reasonably complicated and sometimes hip/valley jacks are cut in pairs for speed and they don't necessarily match the common rafter layout. This is not an issue unless the spacing is greater than 22.5" between 2 members, which is the maximum spacing as per the sheathing specs. There are other scenarios that can alter layout as well. The key is being within maximum spacing limits.
> 
> The roofer was justified in his concerns with the breathability of the product. That may be a key factor as this plays out.


I don't care how cut-up a roof is. There's no excuse for the rafters to not be straight and on layout.


----------



## titanoman

I don't think ventilation has anything to do with it.
The roof would show a problem like that over a longer period of time, not overnight.
I don't think it's moisture either.
I think it's just the nature of the product.
It passes code, so I think the builder is off the hook.


----------



## loneframer

titanoman said:


> I don't care how cut-up a roof is. There's no excuse for the rafters to not be straight and on layout.


Straight is one thing, but falling on layout is another. What if there is a beam located on a 16" center? You shift the layout to one side or the other, or add another one to keep under max spacing.

I've framed homes where HVAC ducts were required to be centered over windows in a vaulted ceiling. Guess what, add a rafter and shift them to accommodate the ductwork.

Skylights, same thing. They are laid out to center on the room, so layouts may shift, either a lot or marginally.

Dormers, interior gables, a common rafter used to pin the ridge on a hip roof...


Look at any complex truss roof with hip trusses. I've never seen one that isn't laid out from the corners toward the center of the building.


----------



## titanoman

loneframer said:


> Straight is one thing, but falling on layout is another. What if there is a beam located on a 16" center? You shift the layout to one side or the other, or add another one to keep under max spacing.
> 
> I've framed homes where HVAC ducts were required to be centered over windows in a vaulted ceiling. Guess what, add a rafter and shift them to accommodate the ductwork.
> 
> Skylights, same thing. They are laid out to center on the room, so layouts may shift, either a lot or marginally.
> 
> Dormers, interior gables, a common rafter used to pin the ridge on a hip roof...
> 
> Look at any complex truss roof with hip trusses. I've never seen one that isn't laid out from the corners toward the center of the building.


Of course. As long as they stay parallel.
And I don't use a common at the end of the ridge.


----------



## stickner

joeh20 said:


> I'm already in TN please elaborate as to who built this or where this happened. I'd like to see.


Thanks for the offer Joe. I prefer not giving specifics on the precise location or who the builder is. I am sure you understand.


----------



## stickner

Roofmaster417 said:


> Is it a requirement in that subdivision for every home to have Solarbord?


It is not a requirement, but I am almost positive that it is a standard for the homes in my immediate area of the subdivision. I am pretty sure they ALL have Solarbord.


----------



## stickner

titanoman said:


> It passes code, so I think the builder is off the hook.


I don't agree with that at all.


----------



## stickner

Wow - are we gonna hit 200 posts on this thread? It is now the most replied to thread in the history of the roofing section on this forum...

Thanks for the help everyone! I am gonna keep giving you all the info you ask me for, and also keep you updated on what is going on....


----------



## stickner

Found the following. Read the entire article here.

The term ghost lines or roof ridging was coined to describe the effect of osb edge swelling under thin roof shingles. The Structural Board Association (SBA), a trade association that represents osb manufacturers in North America, has issued a technical bulletin outlining a plan to prevent this phenomenon. SBA correctly indicates that dry storage, proper installation, adequate roof ventilation and application of a warm-side vapor barrier will help prevent roof ridging.


Irreversible edge swelling has been the biggest knock on osb. Manufacturers have done a good job of addressing this issue at the manufacturing facility and during transportation by coating panel edges. But the reality is that builders don’t limit osb use to full-sized sheets. The edges of cut sheets are seldom if ever treated in the field. Houses under construction get rained on. And if you use osb in an area of very high humidity, like over an improperly vented attic or over a poorly constructed crawlspace, you are asking for trouble.


Osb responds more slowly to changes in relative humidity and exposure to liquid water. It takes longer for water to soak osb and conversely, once water gets into osb it is very slow to leave. The longer that water remains within osb the more likely it is to rot. Wood species has a significant impact. If osb is made from aspen or poplar, it gets a big fat zero with regard to natural decay resistance. Many of the western woods used to manufacture plywood at least have moderate decay resistance.


----------



## framer52

Trust me, I have framed in excess of 1000 homes over the last 10 years and the ghosting you are seeing is not normal in any way.

This is why I believe it has to do with the specific product you had installed.

By the way, around here most tract homes use OSB with not a single problem.:thumbsup:


----------



## loneframer

I was on a roof today that showed signs of horizontal seam ridging. I saw it from the ground and decided to check it out. Much to my surprise, the ridges appeared to be nothing more than buckling of the roofing itself, not the sheathing. The bulge was hollow undeneath and could be pressed down flat.:huh:

Here's my theory.

I know for fact that the sheathing was gapped. It is 3/4" T&G with no clips.

Roofing shingles get nailed above the exposure line which results in a second row of nails near the top of the coarse below it. When these two rows of nails span the seam and the sheets expand to take up the gap, they push toward each other resulting in the buckle.


I'm not saying this is the case in your situation, but thought I'd throw it in the ring.


----------



## framer52

And the vertical seems ghosting?


----------



## loneframer

framer52 said:


> And the vertical seems ghosting?


No sign of vertical seams ghosting, but the horizontal seams are all showing slightly and it is definitely only the roofing that is raised. I don't see any reason why the sheets growing in length wouldn't show the same symptom though. I'm assuming the sheets expanded more in width than length.


----------



## roofermikeinc

*Gap sheathing*

It looks like the buckling is at the joints of the sheathing. I'm just a Miami roofer, but I know roof sheathing should be gapped. An easy way to do it is start an 8c into each truss, against each sheet before placing the next one. If this isn't done, the edges could buckle up with expansion and contraction. 
Oh, and after the sheet is set: pull the gappers. Trip hazzard,you know...


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> Sorry for the thread hijack. It does help to keep it at the top of the new posts list.:thumbsup:


No worries my friend. You guys have all been incredibly helpful, I don't care what direction this thread goes!


----------



## hammerlane

just adding my name to this thread so I do not lose it....want to add a few comments later

GO PATS


----------



## loneframer

hammerlane said:


> just adding my name to this thread so I do not lose it....want to add a few comments later
> 
> GO PATS


At the top of the page, look for the "thread tools" box. Click it and click "subscribe to thread". After subscribing, you can easily find it by clicking the "User CP" button at the upper left of the page.:thumbsup:


----------



## Gary in WA

Loneframer is correct on the OSB: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-102-understanding-attic-ventilation?full_view=1

That from my library on OSB article I'm putting together.... sorry I didn't see this thread sooner.
Fig.8: http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2006/aug/Paper_266.pdf

Gary


----------



## MJW

GBR in WA said:


> Loneframer is correct on the OSB: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-102-understanding-attic-ventilation?full_view=1
> 
> That from my library on OSB article I'm putting together.... sorry I didn't see this thread sooner.
> Fig.8: http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2006/aug/Paper_266.pdf
> 
> Gary


So, what are you saying? It's a ventilation problem??? Or simply blaming OSB products?

Like I said in an earlier post. I've seen OSB that was rained on so much that it swelled from 1/2" to over an inch thick and never saw it through the shingles like the pics here. These pics show the definite outline of the sheets.

Other pics show that the insulation and ventilation is inadequate. 

I'm still open minded on this thread. Nothing seems to add up 100% for a real good solution or why the problem occurred.


----------



## hammerlane

OK stickner, don't mean to "hijack" but the reason I followed this thread was in post #1 and subsequent posts which showed the outside brick veneer of your home what caught my eye were your window sills. Then in post #80 when you showed pictures of the water leaks at the floor level it was like I've seen this before. AFter reading further in yours you determined your leaks were from the roof.

But I thought I'd quickly share my experience with you about those window sills which are called "rowlocks". 
-The bricks are laid on edge to make the sill. I had identical sills on 7 of my windows on the front brick veneer of my home. 
-Started getting leaks in the house after wind driven rains. 
-There were counter flashing areas near the leaks so assumed it was the flashing. 
-We replaced and repaired flashing. 
-Leaks still progressed. 
-After a month of checking, it was determined the rowlocks were leaking(the mortar joints between the bricks will break down and allow water in. If the window is not 
flashed properly with weep holes, the water will get in the house. 
-My remedy was replacing all sills with limestone sills.


----------



## stickner

@Hammerlane

Thanks for your post, but one of the only things I am absolutely 100% certain about is how the water leaked in. I'll do my best to explain.

On both sides of the dormer in the front of the house, the brick was not even installed yet. There was no brick, no flashing, no nothing. Then we got 9 inches of rain. It poured into the open sections on each side of the dormer.


----------



## hammerlane

OK stickner...just keep an eye on your sills. Over time, small hairline cracks may form in the mortar joints on the rowlocks. when that happens rain will get behind the brick veneer. 

Just inspect the sills after each winter and keep a heads up.

A good product(don't know if we can plug products) for sealing cracks in mortar joints up to 1/8inch wide is ChimneyRx Masonry Crack and Joint Sealant.

http://saversystems.com/chimney-products/crack-and-joint-sealant

I used this on my chimney last year on a lot of the mortar joints where I had cracks. And so far this year no efflorescence on the brick.

I had my sills replaced before I discovered this product or I would of used it on the sills.

Anyway keep us updated on the roof.


----------



## Arkitexas

stickner said:


> Do you mean the product itself is not good, or something happened with our particular boards (they got really wet and they installed wet product?)
> 
> My wife pointed out something interesting - one of the last couple houses is under construction and they have been leaving building stuff laying around - somewhat covered - somewhat not.
> 
> I am going to pay close attention to how the treat all the sheathing.


In my view these comments flag a big concern regarding moisture. The APA standards permit limited direct rain exposure for "EXTERIOR" rated products due to weather delays (a very loose parameter). On the other hand, your sheathing product is rated "EXPOSURE 1" for which APA standards permit "exterior exposure" (but not rain) to the underside surface only (such as an eave). This precludes any amount of direct rain exposure to either side and only "exterior exposure" to the underside. "EXPOSURE 1" also dictates that, before installation, the product be stored off the ground and protected from rain at all times. 

My opinion of OSB is not very high. It is a wonderful thing that the wood industry has found a use for all those wood chips, but OSB board for building construction stretches the limits of the product's capabilities. It is best used where it was originally accepted - mobile homes where 2x2 studs, buckled floors, and aluminum wiring are standard.

Other previous comments indicated that, if construction met the building code, the contractor was off the hook. Not so. Remember that building codes are the MINIMUM acceptable level of construction which protects the safety and welfare of the public. Anything less, the government will step in and say NO. If the contractor advertises himself as a "fine custom home builder", "superb", "quality", "committed to excellence" or providing any other similar product or attribute, you may reasonably expect him to provide more than the dead minimum allowed by law. Furthermore, just because he has installed a inferior product in the rest of the neighborhood doesn't relieve him of the responsibility of living up to his advertising. 

Rick


----------



## framer52

Rick,

You are showing your age or lack of ability to change with the times.

OSB today is a different product than when it first came out. When used properly it is as good or better than the plywood products it has replaced.

To give you and example, the better houses built today use a product called advantec which is far superior product to any flooring product on the market.

As far as a roofing substrate, I don't care for 7/16 osb but I feel that 1/2" osb is Superior to plywood.

now, the product that was used on the roof in the OP's case may be entirely the problem. It would not necessarily be the OSB substrate ,but the combination of the reflective material is where i believe most of the problem lies.

By the way, I am old enough to remember my father discussing with grandfather that plywood is not a good product, similar in my view to your dislike of OSB today.


----------



## Arkitexas

framer52 said:


> Rick,
> 
> You are showing your age or lack of ability to change with the times.


I'm sure my age is much to blame. But after being burned by OSB on too many occasions over 41 years (I'm 65) it's not likely I will never be confident in OSB performance around moisture. With regard to all products, I've learned to be skeptical of any manufacturer's claims, to rely more on actual field performance, and to attach more weight to other professionals' opinions.

In my experience I have found OSB to have only one characteristic superior to plywood - flatness. This is an advantage in some areas of construction but shouldn't be a factor in decking and sheathing if the flatness is within rated tolerances. 

In my opinion neither OSB nor plywood, having a EXPOSURE-1 rating, should be used where rain is possible. An EXTERIOR rating would be far wiser.

Rick


----------



## framer52

Arkitexas said:


> I'm sure my age is much to blame. But after being burned by OSB on too many occasions over 41 years (I'm 65) it's not likely I will never be confident in OSB performance around moisture. With regard to all products, I've learned to be skeptical of any manufacturer's claims, to rely more on actual field performance, and to attach more weight to other professionals' opinions.
> 
> In my experience I have found OSB to have only one characteristic superior to plywood - flatness. This is an advantage in some areas of construction but shouldn't be a factor in decking and sheathing if the flatness is within rated tolerances.
> 
> In my opinion neither OSB nor plywood, having a EXPOSURE-1 rating, should be used where rain is possible. An EXTERIOR rating would be far wiser.
> 
> Rick



Exactly how have been "burned"?


----------



## Gary in WA

OSB is an engineered wood, it cannot tolerate much water. It takes longer for water to enter but a lot longer to dry. The backside has to be exposed to help dry it, not covered with foil (vapor impermeable). http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/choosing-between-oriented-strandboard-and-plywood/
The foil stops the pressure drives/ventilation from the attic space below that could help dry the OSB if/when it gets wet (as it did). 

Plywood and OSB act as “smart vapor retarders” to changes in relative humidity, BUT require “considerations--- “d”, and “e”--- one side open, not impermeable roofing on one side and impermeable foil on the other. Any water added at construction would wet the OSB and it couldn’t dry to the bottom side with the foil there and shortly covered with the roofing: http://usgbchouston.org/files/1479_J450.pdf 

I'd be interested to learn if they sealed the edges of the OSB before the foil facing at the factory...

OSB should have an air space on one side to facilitate drying to that side, either under the building paper (two layers = twice as good) or housewrap with drainage ridges for a rainy climate. For very rainy areas, a “rain screen” (ventilated cladding) approach is best--- depends on location. 
Photo #5 is similar to your foil facing/foam facing, on one side and builders paper on the other. It would have been better if they had installed two layers before the shingles- notice the “gap” with OSB, how much better it performs: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-038-mind-the-gap-eh?searchterm=bsi+038 Did you read “Footnote” #5 and #6? The OSB dries through the edges and ends, it also wets through those, the reason manufacturers have painted them to seal against edge swell that plagued them earlier.

OSB does not “breathe” as well as plywood, or redistribute water as well as plywood. Plywood also dries much faster than OSB when it does get wet. 
Look at the blue line on the charts for the drying time of having a double vapor barrier (asphalt shingles/foil) with plywood starting on the bottom of page #7: http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/4625/ESL-HH-04-05-25.pdf?sequence=4

Did you read the drying rate of OSB in the lab samples on page #11? And see the chart in Fig. #13--- remember-- this is without any covering on either side. This is for a hot, humid climate, not yours, but it gives you an idea of what you’re up against. The framers may have left the OSB stock uncovered as said earlier, and it would wick the moisture from the air (acclimate) through the exposed edge grain before it even hit the roof. The sling of OSB would absorb the humidity at the edges to try to even out the big moisture/temperature difference: overcast day, rainy day with much humidity, OSB with 5-10%: chart on moisture content and size change: http://www.osb-info.org/Assets/file/EN/userguides/Storage__Handling.pdf

http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el812.pdf

Be very careful of OSB that has aspen in its make-up; either on a roof or wall; http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2007/fpl_2007_carll001.pdf

As you are in Zone 3 or 4A and I live in Zone 4C, these recommendations could also apply to you using the “vapor open” assembly, pp.4: http://www.cityofseattle.net/dclu/news/moisture_study_summary.pdf

As far as plywood over OSB besides the water issue: http://www.gp.com/build/PageViewer.aspx?repository=bp&elementid=6132

A quote: “Various risk factors (e.g., wintertime construction or high ambient
humidity or a projected long lead time before the building is closed
in) may lead the design team to: specify plywood instead of OSB;
specify a different cladding or roof covering assembly over the OSB;
or upgrade the specifications and details for installation of the
weather-resistive barrier or felt underlayment and related flashing
assemblies.
In addition, combining these risk factors might lead the builder to
more closely supervise and coordinate the subcontractors’ work or to
upgrade the weather protection systems for the exposed construction.” From: http://www.mastercodeprofessional.com/moldmag_files/Mold2006_01_JanFeb_OSB_vs_Plywood.pdf


Gary


----------



## Nailbags

It looks like the sheathing has failed! GBR has pointed out some great points. Things to never skimp on sheathing use CDX plywood five ply min. Sorry to see your problems


----------



## roofscum

You,re screwed,multiple problems. shingle pattern wrong,decking appears to be under nailed,challenged framer.Judging from the photo you may want to take a real close look at flashing details.


----------



## loneframer

roofscum said:


> You,re screwed,multiple problems. shingle pattern wrong,decking appears to be under nailed,challenged framer.Judging from the photo you may want to take a real close look at flashing details.


It's unfair to assume the framer has anything to do with the sheathing issue. I see absolutely nothing in those photos that points a finger toward a "challenged framer". It's possible that the framer had nothing to do with the sheathing at all. In many parts of the country, there is a separate crew that does nothing but sheathing, leaving the framer to do nothing but framing.

It's also possible that the installation requirements were met and there is a failure of the product, regardless of who installed it.


----------



## titanoman

loneframer said:


> It's unfair to assume the framer has anything to do with the sheathing issue. I see absolutely nothing in those photos that points a finger toward a "challenged framer". It's possible that the framer had nothing to do with the sheathing at all. In many parts of the country, there is a separate crew that does nothing but sheathing, leaving the framer to do nothing but framing.
> 
> It's also possible that the installation requirements were met and there is a failure of the product, regardless of who installed it.


Never heard of a sheeting crew. Must be a tract housing thing.


----------



## framer52

No it is typically a NJ thing.:thumbsup:

As far as nailing pattern of the OSB it looks fine to me...


----------



## loneframer

titanoman said:


> Never heard of a sheeting crew. Must be a tract housing thing.


It probably started in tract housing, but I've seen it in custom beach homes as well. A good friend of mine framed in Las Vegas years ago. They would get into a development of several hundred homes on concrete slab. They had a very specialized system. One crew did nothing but plate and lay out, next crew would frame and brace, another crew set trusses and finally a crew would sheath the structure. Windows and doors were yet another crew.


----------



## roofscum

*crystal balls*

I looked at the same picture you guys did.I don't know the circumstances of this install and neither do you. My observations were opinion not definitive.What I see is typical of the construction industry .Chest pounding & ego flaunting.Rather than trying to help this guy it's become a race of egos.If we knew everything we would'nt be in this business,at least I would'nt. Hey buddy TRY to find someone competant and realistic to crawl in and assess the damage.No sense and over complicating things any more than they have to be.


----------



## loneframer

roofscum said:


> I looked at the same picture you guys did.I don't know the circumstances of this install and neither do you. My observations were opinion not definitive.What I see is typical of the construction industry .Chest pounding & ego flaunting.Rather than trying to help this guy it's become a race of egos.If we knew everything we would'nt be in this business,at least I would'nt. Hey buddy TRY to find someone competant and realistic to crawl in and assess the damage.No sense and over complicating things any more than they have to be.


I don't think that a bunch of guys from different parts of the country offering up their opinions and experiences equates to a race of egos. The whole point of this site is to gather information and opinions of people who have had or seen similar experiences. 

This is an unusual case which has inspired a lot of interest. Obviously, a physical inspection on site is the only way to sort this out completely. No reason why it can't be discussed here though.


----------



## stickner

loneframer said:


> This is an unusual case which has inspired a lot of interest. Obviously, a physical inspection on site is the only way to sort this out completely. No reason why it can't be discussed here though.


I agree completely. This thread has been INCREDIBLY valuable to me. I can't thank everyone enough for their input. 

I have several additional roofing companies lined up for next week. Hoping to get to a definitive answer.


----------



## Tom Struble

firehawkmph said:


> On a related note: Years ago, on new homes with vinyl siding, one of the local cities made you put foil paper on the sheathing prior to siding. The foil was on one side of the paper, with the other side being brown. Everybody was installing the paper with the foil side out. They had a lot of problems with the siding expanding too much due to being heated up from the reflective foil.
> Mike Hawkins



urban/suburban legend Mike,there are things that will distort vinyl siding this has never been proven to be one of them


----------



## firehawkmph

Tom Struble said:


> urban/suburban legend Mike,there are things that will distort vinyl siding this has never been proven to be one of them


Tom,
That was from a neighboring city who had an old timer for a building inspector. They had such crazy requirements there that a lot of builders wouldn't build there. I got into a pretty good argument with the inspector that day. I had the whole house just about done and he had me unzipping panels to check for the foil paper. When he saw it was foil side out, he wanted me to change it. That's when the argument started. Needless to say, I didn't change it. He said they had a lot of problems with the vinyl and blamed it on the foil. Thinking about it now, most of the problems were due to lumber shrinkage and the panel popping loose at the 2nd story belt line, which used to happen with aluminum even before the vinyl.
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this thread is. 
Mike Hawkins


----------



## Tom Struble

the same thing was said about the black of felt paper holding too much heat,maybe dupont started these statements:whistling2:

but i have checked this out,no manufacturer of either vinyl siding or reflective foam mention this as a concern


----------



## stickner

A few pictures taken from the other side of our house...


----------



## stickner

A picture of one of the other roofs a few doors down from us... They all look like this. I felt kinda creepy taking pics of the neighbors houses, otherwise I would have walked around and snapped pictures of them all!

The other pic is from a house that we can see from our backyard that is currently under construction. 

What I find amusing is that the builder told us they can't even come out to INSPECT our roof until the temperature is CONSISTENTLY in the 80's!!! Yet, it has been in the 30's and 40's here and they are putting up a roof on a new build...


----------



## roofscum

You 're second photo reveals another possibilty. felt paper. Although wrinkled felt normally is a more random lump pattern I have seen this condition. If you can reach one push down with your hand ,if it moves fairly easily it could be the felt.Lumpy felt sometimes flattens with increased temps ,although,they may return when temps change.Maybe thats what your builders waiting for.Or his one year warranty to expire.


----------



## framer52

That felt has to be removed before roofing or the roof will look horrible.


----------



## sixeightten

I have never used the product that you have on your roof. I looked at all the pics, and I don't think the problem was with the carpenters. It looks to be a defect of the product. Seems like others near you are having similar issues.


----------



## stickner

roofscum said:


> You 're second photo reveals another possibilty. felt paper. Although wrinkled felt normally is a more random lump pattern I have seen this condition. If you can reach one push down with your hand ,if it moves fairly easily it could be the felt.Lumpy felt sometimes flattens with increased temps ,although,they may return when temps change.Maybe thats what your builders waiting for.Or his one year warranty to expire.


Look at post 101 of this thread. It is a picture of my roof with just the felt paper on it. You can see it is nice and smooth.


----------



## stickner

roofscum said:


> You 're second photo reveals another possibilty. felt paper. Although wrinkled felt normally is a more random lump pattern I have seen this condition. If you can reach one push down with your hand ,if it moves fairly easily it could be the felt.Lumpy felt sometimes flattens with increased temps ,although,they may return when temps change.Maybe thats what your builders waiting for.Or his one year warranty to expire.


Also - this roof was put down in early August in Eastern Tennessee. It was 90+ then, and it stayed 80+ for quite some time afterwards (months). I am sure it was warm enough for long enough to flatten out whatever was going to flatten out.


----------



## Gary in WA

I can't remember your attic venting situation, sorry. The paper could be forced to bubble because the exhaust vents are inadequate. The attic space could be under constant positive pressure.This could be from forced or natural pressure called the "stack effect". http://www.wag-aic.org/1999/WAG_99_baker.pdf

Was the attic air sealed before insulation?
Do you have any HVAC units or ducting in the attic?
Is the exhaust/intake ventilation system balanced, or exhaust slightly more? 

Gary


----------



## joeh20

Is it just me or in the pic with just the felt down, can you see every rafter telescoping through the felt. It looks like parallel lines from eave to ridge. Could that foil sheathing be cooking that felt and swelling it and the rafters are acting as heatsinks to suck it down? That's the sickest thing I have ever seen. It was 16F here in TN this morning, did your roof look any different with it this cold.?


----------



## roofguy

I am very Have sticked framed alot of houses. Two things that are causing this to happens their should be at least 5/8 tongue and grove 4x8 sheathing on this roof. I use that on all my houses that have long rafter runs. It far better job. Rafter should be crowned and Poor quaility lumber should be put aside and sent back. There are always going to be some slight imperfections in lumber. In some cases we had to take out an electric planer and take down high spots.


----------



## sixeightten

Nobody is putting 5/8 t&g on roofs anymore. If you need a stronger roof, use bigger rafters. Using different sheathing to increase strength is backward thinking.


----------



## stickner

joeh20 said:


> Is it just me or in the pic with just the felt down, can you see every rafter telescoping through the felt. It looks like parallel lines from eave to ridge. Could that foil sheathing be cooking that felt and swelling it and the rafters are acting as heatsinks to suck it down? That's the sickest thing I have ever seen. It was 16F here in TN this morning, did your roof look any different with it this cold.?


Our roof looks exactly the same whether it is 16 or 96. 

Not sure how that foil sheathing would be cooking anything on that home that is under construction. The highs have only been in the mid 30's to mid 40's the past 5 or 6 days (since they decked and felted it).


----------



## stickner

GBR in WA said:


> Was the attic air sealed before insulation?
> Do you have any HVAC units or ducting in the attic?
> Is the exhaust/intake ventilation system balanced, or exhaust slightly more?
> 
> Gary


Look at post 132 and 133 of this thread. That is a pic of the house very shortly after the roof was put on. The interior of the house is still completely wide open at this point. There is no HVAC at all at this point. Not even sheetrock. Just a wide-open house with every stud visible. 

To answer a few of your questions:

There are duct lines that run through the attic. There is a heat pump on the second floor. It is located in a large storage/closet area. 

The HVAC system is a mess. We have had several companies come in and we basically need an entirely new HVAC system (2 new units and all new duct-work). 

Check out my HVAC thread to read all about that fiasco:
http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/major-pressurization-issue-130907/


----------



## Tom Struble

the foil facing only works as a radiant barrier only ''if'' it is facing an air space

it can't cook anything


----------



## firehawkmph

sixeightten said:


> Nobody is putting 5/8 t&g on roofs anymore. If you need a stronger roof, use bigger rafters. Using different sheathing to increase strength is backward thinking.


 68,
I've never seen anyone around here use t&g anything on the roofs. I do use 5/8" cdx though on my jobs. 
Mike Hawkins


----------



## zappa

loneframer said:


> I was on a roof today that showed signs of horizontal seam ridging. I saw it from the ground and decided to check it out. Much to my surprise, the ridges appeared to be nothing more than buckling of the roofing itself, not the sheathing. The bulge was hollow undeneath and could be pressed down flat.:huh:
> 
> Here's my theory.
> 
> I know for fact that the sheathing was gapped. It is 3/4" T&G with no clips.
> 
> Roofing shingles get nailed above the exposure line which results in a second row of nails near the top of the coarse below it. When these two rows of nails span the seam and the sheets expand to take up the gap, they push toward each other resulting in the buckle.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case in your situation, but thought I'd throw it in the ring.


This is an interesting theory as I'm seeing very defined horizontal lines but I can't place the 8' dimension with any consistency. Is this something that will eventually smooth out with heat?


----------



## zappa

Tom Struble said:


> urban/suburban legend Mike,there are things that will distort vinyl siding this has never been proven to be one of them





Tom Struble said:


> the same thing was said about the black of felt paper holding too much heat,maybe dupont started these statements:whistling2:
> 
> but i have checked this out,no manufacturer of either vinyl siding or reflective foam mention this as a concern


I agree....I don't believe color or reflectivity has much bearing when installed in a location that is protected from direct sunlight.


----------



## zappa

stickner said:


> I felt kinda creepy taking pics of the neighbors houses, otherwise I would have walked around and snapped pictures of them all!


I would be introducing myself and asking what they think about their roofs and other issues they may be having with their new house.


----------



## stickner

A quick update....

There really is no update! The builder is still dragging their feet on this. Over a month ago, they told me the temps had to consistently be in the 80's before they could even do an evaluation. 

Well - it has been in the mid 70's to low 80's for a few weeks, and they still haven't come out. They either ignore my inquiries, or give me an excuse.

Attached are a couple pics. One is of my next door neighbors house. The house is 6-7 months old and as you can see - same problem. The house with the dirt visible is currently under construction. Again - same issues as my roof. This picture isnt the greatest as you can only see the horizontal lines because of the lighting - but the vertical lines are there. Trust me!

I will keep everyone updated when I learn more.

Stickner


----------



## ktkelly

I think it's "lawyer up" time.


What you seem to be experiencing is a builder that knows there's a problem and doesn't want to deal with it.


Sort of like the EIFS stucco problems from a few short years back. 


I bet this product will undoubtedly end up as the basis of many lawsuits as well....


----------



## David Millar

Gidday from New Zealand 
We have a similar problem to your roof , wondering how you ended up fixing yours , thanks


----------



## jagans

It looks to me like this "Solarboard" is dimensionally unstable under heat load, and is expanding and buckling under same.

I would have used minimum CD Exposure 1 - 5 ply 19/32 Fir Plywood properly spaced on a home of this quality.

What you are probably going to hear is that this is normal and will not effect the performance of the roof, regardless of the fact that it looks like crap. I do not see a problem with the rafters, but maybe someone sees something that I do not. An out of plane rafter, or one that is not crowned would result in a swale running from eaves to ridge, not what we are seeing here. 

Google "Solarboard, class action suit" and see if anything pops up.


----------



## jagans

I just went to Solarboards website and watched their video. I noticed a couple of things.

1. Their mockup has no underlayment or shingles on it.
2. The foil side goes down. That means that the reflected heat is being sent right back into the OSB and the shingles. To me, this is idiotic. Wood moves a lot under normal circumstances, why microwave it. The delta-T on the sheathing must be enormous, which leads to:
3. Notice in the short video that the guy nailing this product appears to be using gigantic nails, on the order of 20 penney. Look at the nail, its huge. Could they be trying to restrain the board against movement?
4. The product in the video has large MFGR Imprints on the back of the board. I dont see those on yours. Did your builder use "Its just as good as a Zerox" on your home made in upper Slabovia?

Finally, what is wrong with simply applying proper venting to the attic space to eliminate heat passively? 

And finally, finally. 

JUST BECAUSE IT IS ALLOWED BY CODE DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU SHOULD DO IT. AND IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS GUARANTEED TO LOOK GOOD. JUST BECAUSE YOUR FOOT WILL NOT GO THROUGH IT IF YOU ARE A 150 LB PERSON, DOES NOT MAKE IT ADEQUATE FOR THE INTENDED PURPOSE. CODES ARE BASED ON THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH.

This is an absolute shame. A brand new Beautiful house constructed of brick with a roof that looks like it is about to cave in.........nice.


----------



## greyboy

Did the sheathing get wet before it was roofed? I've seen this several times. The decking gets wet and the edges will swell, dry and stay swollen. If you look the high spots are usually around the perimeter of the deck sheets with the top edge (the one that got the most water in it) swelling the most.


----------



## eharri3

If my realtor tried to show me that home and I saw that, I would pass without a second thought. Maybe it is structurally sound, maybe it is not. But it looks ugly to me and I would see no reason to invest the time and effort to find out what the problem is when I could just go look at houses with normal looking roofs. That is the problem that you will encounter when you try to sell this house. I cannot believe the builder has continued to do that through multiple homes and not figured out a way to prevent it.


----------



## jagans

eharri3 said:


> If my realtor tried to show me that home and I saw that, I would pass without a second thought. Maybe it is structurally sound, maybe it is not. But it looks ugly to me and I would see no reason to invest the time and effort to find out what the problem is when I could just go look at houses with normal looking roofs. That is the problem that you will encounter when you try to sell this house. I cannot believe the builder has continued to do that through multiple homes and not figured out a way to prevent it.


Agree wholeheartedly. The problem is people coming up with things that simply do not make any sense from a materials engineering standpoint, in an effort to achieve, or more appropriately, Claiming to achieve an increase in energy efficiency. There is also the ridiculous mind set of tract builders trying to gain an edge over the competition by using something that is allowed by code. They would be much better off selling the fact that they build a quality home, and it costs more to do so.As I already stated, If I was building a new home, the minimum roof sheathing on 24 inch center supports would be 5 ply minimum Fir Plywood, 19/32 thick.


----------

