# Sound of running water when water is not in use



## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

er78mph said:


> ...seems that water is running when everything if off.
> Went out to the meter and the triangle signal is spinning...
> ...any feedback would be truly appreciated!!


Time to do some detective work...
eliminate possibilities in an orderly fashion:

Find the main service valve (at entrance to house). Turn it off. 
Is water meter still spinning?
If so... keep house valve closed and turn off water at the meter.
Is water meter still spinning?


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

When main water line at the meter is turned off, triangle stops spinning. We can't shut valve off at the house because water regulated not functioning. We can't spin the valve clockwise nor counter clockwise


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## Lightfoot (Jan 16, 2011)

have you checked the toilets to make sure they are not running. Leaky toilet flappers can really run up a water bill. Sounds like your problem may be bigger than that, but worth a look.

You don't list a location, but if it's really dry there, look for greener grass or a wet area where the waterline runs. Sounds like it may be a leak between the meter and house.

Have you been under the house to look for leaks or standing water?


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Yeah, initial thought was leaky toilet but not the case. Water seems to be running when nothing on.


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Sorry, location is in garage area, no crawl space or noticeable spots of water outside the home. Sound has only been heard for around only a week.


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

er78mph said:


> We can't shut valve off at the house because water regulator not functioning.


Even without the sound or actual running water issues...
THIS needs to be fixed and right away.

Buy a new entrance S&W valve and a new regulator...
and while you're at it get a couple of new gauges (one for each side of the regulator) 
along with all the pipe/fittings needed to do it all.

Afterward you can get back to looking for the mystery leak.


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Thank you, is welding for regulator similar to water heater welding?


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> When main water line at the meter is turned off, triangle stops spinning. We can't shut valve off at the house because water regulated not functioning. We can't spin the valve clockwise nor counter clockwise


If you can "hear" water running when everything on the property is off, then the leak must be pretty bad. When you watch the triangle on the meter, how many minutes does it take for one revolution?

I don't understand how the water pressure reducing valve (PRV) (aka water pressure regulator) working or not working can affect shutting water off at the house. What do you see at the house?

Gate Valve:









Ball valve:









Pressure reducing valve:










Is the plumbing at the house galvanized pipe, copper pipe or plastic pipe?

As TarheelTerp said, this water leak should be repaired asap.
HRG


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Triangle spins crazy, a bunch of revolutions per minute. The plumbing has a ball valve attached to the regulator. Not quite sure of the make up of the plumbing/piping


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

As stated: Toilets are the #1 culprit when water usage suddenly goes up and you cannot see water leaking anywhere. Two probable issues here: One--the toilet flapper valve thingy--they do wear out and do not seal tight against the cast piece within the toilet. Two--IF the water level controller is not shutting off properly then water will continue to run out of the little plastic tube which goes into the overflow pipe (usually about 1" diameter and within the tank). I've replaced so many water level controllers because of this. And--it doesn't have to be a very large flow of water there to make the meter move and the water bill go sky high.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

er78mph said:


> Triangle spins crazy, a bunch of revolutions per minute. The plumbing has a ball valve attached to the regulator. Not quite sure of the make up of the plumbing/piping


Shut off the ball valve near the regulator.

Go back to the meter, and look at the triangle.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> Triangle spins crazy, a bunch of revolutions per minute. The plumbing has a ball valve attached to the regulator. Not quite sure of the make up of the plumbing/piping


Triangle spinning a bunch of revolutions per minute is a "very" bad leak. No wonder you can hear it. Bad leaks underground can cause sinkholes. Leaks underground (slow or fast) are also huge termite attractors.

As Alan suggested, turn off the ball valve that's by the PRV (quarter turn so handle is perpendicular to the pipe) and check the triangle. 

If spinning stops, the leak is "past" that ball valve. In that case open the ball valve (handle parallel to pipe, triangle starts spinning again) and close every valve feeding toilets, valves under the kitchen sink, valves in bathroom vanity cabinets, and faucets feeding the washing machine. As you close each valve, listen for the water to stop running or have someone on a cell phone watch the triangle. Does the leaking sound stop and the triangle stop spinning?

If triangle still spinning when every valve in the house is closed (especially the valves feeding the toilet tanks), then the leak must be somewhere where you can't see it. Is the house built on a concrete slab?

HRG


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## biggles (Jan 1, 2008)

how the water pressure when you do use it? if the meter is outside you are dumping water between there and the house into the ground call the water company....toilet flapper leak won't spin a meter....tell them of the noise but stops when you shut the street off


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

*Think I found the leak*

So after days of research inquiries from you guys i narrowed the leak to a particular part of the home. Could not find anything so instead i opted to get a free estimate from local plumbing company. The plumber told me mostly things I have already figured out but suggested that I might have a hot water leak. He wanted $300 to pin point the problem but I decline. I followed the hot water line from the hot water heater to the slab and i heard hissing sound, like air is escaping. Sounds really close to slab but unfortunately I could not get to it. What should i do now and what should i expect to pay for someone to break slab and and fix the line. THe plumber also suggested that i re-route the lines above the ceiling for a cool $5000. Is breaking the slab something I can do?? Help, please! thank you!!


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

er78mph said:


> So after days of research inquiries from you guys i narrowed the leak to a particular part of the home. Could not find anything so instead i opted to get a free estimate from local plumbing company. The plumber told me mostly things I have already figured out but suggested that I might have a hot water leak. He wanted $300 to pin point the problem but I decline. I followed the hot water line from the hot water heater to the slab and i heard hissing sound, like air is escaping. Sounds really close to slab but unfortunately I could not get to it. What should i do now and what should i expect to pay for someone to break slab and and fix the line. THe plumber also suggested that i re-route the lines above the ceiling for a cool $5000. Is breaking the slab something I can do?? Help, please! thank you!!


When we find lines like this people usually opt to replace just the line that is leaking, so we go to the manifold, and cap the defective line and reroute it overhead.

5000 for repiping the entire house might be close, but it's really not easy to tell from where I sit.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> I followed the hot water line from the hot water heater to the slab and i heard hissing sound, like air is escaping. Sounds really close to slab but unfortunately I could not get to it. What should i do now and what should i expect to pay for someone to break slab and and fix the line. THe plumber also suggested that i re-route the lines above the ceiling for a cool $5000. Is breaking the slab something I can do?? Help, please! thank you!!


First, verify that the leak is in the hot water line. Do this by turning off the valve in the cold water input line right above the water heater. When you do this does the triangle stop spinning?

Assuming that the leak is confirmed to be in the hot water line which it probably is since the plumber checked it, running replacement lines in the ceiling would be much better than breaking the slab and repairing the leak. Even if the leak is repaired, another leak under the slab will probably occur somewhere else a short while later.

Running replacement water lines in the ceiling/attic will depend on whether the temperature ever gets to freezing. If yes, then the lines will have to be in spaces that won't freeze.

BTW, did the plumber say whether he would be replacing both hot and cold lines? What kind of replacement lines would he be using? PEX, CPVC, copper? What material are the existing water lines made of? Just curious.

HRG


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Lines are copper and the plumber mentioned using copper or some less expensive plastic product that was just approved here in California. Not sure if he wanted to re-route both the cold and the hot. Ive done some welding b4( water heater), is it hard to re-route the line?


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## biggles (Jan 1, 2008)

reroute the HW line above if you can where it goes into the slab and if can where it comes back up.if it is a poured slab to copper leak others might be in the offing like car radiator...levittown house out here the heating was layed in copper and the slabs where poured after the war..first thing owner do is bring it up onto the floor with fin tube....copper and concrete NG


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

er78mph said:


> Lines are copper and the plumber mentioned using copper or some less expensive plastic product that was just approved here in California. Not sure if he wanted to re-route both the cold and the hot. Ive done some welding b4( water heater), is it hard to re-route the line?


Rerouting the lines in the ceiling is no too bad. But have you thought about how to drop the lines down to the kitchen sink or bathrooms? Are you prepared to patch walls?

Sent from my iPhone using DIY Forum


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Not worried about patching walls, but worried about the 2 bathrooms, 3 sinks, 2 showers, and of course leaks


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> Not worried about patching walls, but worried about the 2 bathrooms, 3 sinks, 2 showers, and of course leaks


The existing copper lines must be pitting/deteriorating from the inside. Hot water copper lines invariably fail before the cold water copper lines.

The lines that the plumber referred to as the "less expensive plastic product that was just approved here in California" must be PEX. PEX is easy to pull through the attic. Does it freeze in your location?

Since the leak is bad, you need to bypass that section asap. Sometimes the hot water line from the heater will go down under the slab and come up out of the slab to a manifold made out of copper pipes. Then the manifold feeds hot water trunk lines to different parts of the house. Maybe one trunk line to the laundry room in one direction and another trunk line to the bathrooms in a different direction. In a case like that, you could run a hot water line from the water heater to the manifold and bypass the leaking part. Then have a lot of time to work on the rest of the house.

If there isn't a manifold and the hot water line runs under the slab to each location, then you might consider letting the plumber do the job since he could do the whole job quickly.

If there is a manifold and you can bypass the leak without having to run lines to every location, here's an idea for the bathrooms. The hot water trunk line will come up in the double wall and then branch to the bathroom sink and tub/shower. When you cut the existing copper hot water line coming up from the slab, cut out a section and examine the inside of the pipe. If the pipe is not deteriorated, you could decide to just connect the new hot water line to the place you cut and leave the existing copper plumbing in the double wall. This would save you from having to access every fixture which could be a problem in back-to-back showers where there isn't any access to the pipes. This will be a judgement call on your part.

HRG


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

No freezing here in san diego but THANK YOU so much for helpful information. Hopefully there a manifold that I tap into, how do u go about this? Pick a spot on the drywall by the first bathroom and look to see if the line continues to go to other fixtures above ground?


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> No freezing here in san diego but THANK YOU so much for helpful information. Hopefully there a manifold that I tap into, how do u go about this? Pick a spot on the drywall by the first bathroom and look to see if the line continues to go to other fixtures above ground?


No freezing in your location will make running lines in the attic very easy. Where is the heater located? How far away is it from the nearest hot water faucet? Does the hot water line from the heater go down under the slab without connecting anywhere else?

Assume the heater is in a garage storage away from the house a bit. To save copper piping and work, the single hot water line out of the heater will go down under the slab > to a close point in the house where it needs to branch off in different directions.

Assume that close point is the kitchen sink. The hot water pipe from the heater could come up from the slab and feed a manifold made out of copper pipes. One output will go directly to the hot water faucet in the kitchen sink. A second output will go back down under the slab in one direction, say to the laundry room. A third output will go back down under the slab in another direction say to back-to-back bathrooms. You get the idea.

Are you pretty sure that you want to tackle the job yourself? If so, at this point, it might be a good idea to post a floor plan of the house so folks will have a better idea of your situation. Pictures of the water heater pipes and the closest hot water faucet piping wouldn't hurt. You will need to handle the legalities of running lines in the attic and doing the plumbing work yourself. Folks here could help with suggestions on how to do it.

HRG


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks, ill keep ya updated on what I am going to do. Going to open up some drywal today.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

er78mph said:


> Thanks, ill keep ya updated on what I am going to do. Going to open up some drywal today.


Until you bypass the leak under the slab, it might be a good idea to shut off the cold water input to the water heater whenever hot water is not necessary. This will stop the leak in the hot water line. If you can manage 75% shut off time, that will be 75% less water wasted and lessen chances of possible water damage.

Normally, when the cold water input valve to the water heater is shut off and if a water heater expansion tank is not installed, then a hot water faucet should be left opened a crack to prevent thermal pressure build up. But in your case, the leak in the hot water line will automatically prevent thermal pressure build up.

Turning off power (electricity, gas) to the water heater while the cold water input valve is shut off will be optional.

HRG


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## vln (Jun 19, 2011)

I hope you realize that due to not shutting off the main water, you water bill will probably be well over $1,000-3,000+ by the end of the month.

If I was you, I would have shut off the water immediately. Having water leaking near/into the slab can and will cause massive foundation damage, sinkholes, dryrot, and other unforeseen consequences. This should be fixed by a reputable plumbing company ASAP.


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks all you guys for your wisdom and time, truly appreciated! I was able to get the problem fixed buy paying a qualified plumber to come out and take a look at the problem. Manifold was under the water heater and the slab leak was on an old addition to the home. Lucky for me that that line only fed the shower in the isolated area. The hot water line for the rest of the house was fortunately already rerouted above ground by previous owners. The plumber capped the old line and tapped into the line above ground and the problem is now solved!! The plumber also installed a new water pressure regulator, shut off valve, and new gas fittings for the hot water tank. I've learn so much even though I eventually ended up paying a certified plumber. But in the future I will be better prepare so when that one remaining underground cold water pipe goes bad!! Thank You all again!!


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## vln (Jun 19, 2011)

I hope your heart can take the price of your water bill.


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Water bill already in, about $40 over normal. Thinking next bill will take the brunt of it. We actually noticed the noise and acted as quickly possible, not everyday that you experience a slab leak. Leak probably ran free for 3 to 4 days after we noticed something wrong. After leak was confirmed, we used hot water just for showers.


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## dogris (Dec 8, 2007)

Many years ago, we had an underground leak that wasn't noticed till we received a very large water bill. After contacting the water company, we were able to receive a reduction of the bill amount by sending in receipts for the repair. 

Maybe worth a try?


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## er78mph (Apr 12, 2012)

Good idea, thanks


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