# Size of lumber for window and door headers?



## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I will be roughing in some windows and doors.
What size lumber should I use for the headers? :001_unsure:
My exterior walls are 2X6 ..


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Whatever the local inspector wants. 2 2x10s with a plywood core is the minimum here for 2x4 wall construction, single story. 2x12 for a 2 story.

I don't know what happens with a 2x6 wall section


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Up here we uses 2 2x10s 1 jack stud each side up to 54" two jack studs for 5 ft and more. Big windows and big loads may require more . We never put plywood between because the timbers shrink and the plywood is stable and the two don't mix well.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Way too many options these days. Double for 4" wall or triple for 6" wall two bye something built out with half inch plywood to match wall depth. A double two bye ten is good around here as header for 6' span. We also just use double and build out with foam. Or a piece of rim board built out to wall depth with foam for thicker walls.....or for larger openings an lvl. Given standard opening sizes in residential around here, it is just easier to make everything two bye ten and jam it up against the top plate eliminating need for cripples, etc. ron


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

The answer is dependent on the loads being applied to the header.
You will have a different answer for the ground floor of a three storey building and a single storey. It can also change when point loads are factored in. Wall stud size is often based on the insulation requirements rather than the structural needs of the wall.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

double 2x10 is pretty standard for 2x4 or 2x6 walls, i rarely pack a 2 play with 1/2" plywood.. but with 2x6 walls the inside face of the header often gets clad with 2" rigid foam.

as stated if you have a pointload landing on top of the header chances are it will have to be switched to a 2 ply lvl or even a gluelam, then double jack studs under it


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

2 storey house, 2 x 2x8's passed city engineering for my 3' windows.
2 x 2 x 10's for the 5' french doors.

Makes no difference 2x4 or 2x6 walls.

Of course your local building code is the final word.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

My exterior walls are 10' tall, so I'll not be near the top plates, does this change things?


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Sean McGill said:


> My exterior walls are 10' tall, so I'll not be near the top plates, does this change things?


My framer put the headers to the top of the walls under the top plates.
Cripples come down to a 2x6 at the top of the opening.
It makes sense.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/total-house-rebuild-bungalow-two-storey-276978/index13/

Or, place cripples in line with any trusses or second floor studs above if done the regular way.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I think basically if you are bearing the load around the opening to the framing below, you will be fine. For 2x6 walls, another method I have used is use 2x10s for the outside/inside and rip 2x4's to 2 1/2" x 9 1/2" and insert them between the 2x10's, sort of like cripples, only inside the cavity. That gives you a good nailing surface on both sides of the doorway, or window in case you want to attach blinds or other accessories.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

So something like this?








If I go with 2X6's (for the header ) one flush against the outside and the other flush against the interior wall with 2x6 cripples studs under trusses or 
[16" on center to carry the wall layout] do I need to add something between the header pieces? 
Two questions come up

1st cripple location

2nd fill void in header

The same method will be used for the doors.
Thanks for the help.:vs_karate:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> So something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You nail your headers together, 2x6 would be 2 nails 16" on center.
We do nothing less than 2x10, Add another 2x below that and you don't need it to fill the cavity.

Denominational lumber is wet and will shrink and crush under load. many people will put plywood between the header pieces. we don't as they don't move with the plywood and you get more cracking of the wood.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Separating you header boards is not as strong as nailing 2 together into a beam.
Does this meet code in your area?

Line up cripples with loads from above if using the standard installation method, even though the double top plate should carry the load.
They can be located anywhere. Just don't locate further than 16" apart.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm confused or I'm not see it in my useless mind.
use 2X10's got that
.. ok when header is nailed together = 3" how do I get to the 5-1/2" [2X6 wall thickness]?
I've seen the two by's with the two by under to make a c channell.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> I'm confused or I'm not see it in my useless mind.
> use 2X10's got that
> .. ok when header is nailed together = 3" how do I get to the 5-1/2" [2X6 wall thickness]?
> I've seen the two by's with the two by under to make a c channell.


The top door sill is nailed to the bottom and cripples are above, why do you need it to be full thickness.. You put insulation in the void.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> I'm confused or I'm not see it in my useless mind.
> use 2X10's got that
> .. ok when header is nailed together = 3" how do I get to the 5-1/2" [2X6 wall thickness]?
> I've seen the two by's with the two by under to make a c channell.


The header goes to the outside and make sure your nails are on the inside so the inspector can see them


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> The top door sill is nailed to the bottom and cripples are above, why do you need it to be full thickness.. You put insulation in the void.


This keeps popping up ...nail the header together....

I will be making a header like this using 2X10's instead :vs_karate:










I think I got it now!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> This keeps popping up ...nail the header together....
> 
> I will be making a header like this using 2X10's instead :vs_karate:
> 
> ...


That would fail in a heart beat where I am.
And it sure gets hard when some inspector checks loads and decides there should be three.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I have no problem doing three.
I want to do it right the first time.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I really didn't think this would be so hard.
My windows are 30 or 32 " X 48 or 53 "
The walls are 2x6 and are 10' tall.
I'm not familiar with 2X6 wall in NB
Ugggg
so will 3X2X10 headers with 1/2" insulation work?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Check what the norm is for your area.

We can just order them up too.
https://www.treehugger.com/modular-design/panellized-prefab-houses-framed-two-days.html


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> I really didn't think this would be so hard.
> My windows are 30 or 32 " X 48 or 53 "
> The walls are 2x6 and are 10' tall.
> I'm not familiar with 2X6 wall in NB
> ...


Only need three for special loads. And should be on the stamped plans.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

2 x 2x10 is sufficient nailed together.
Keep to the outside of the wall and you can insulate to the inside.

Did you click the link in my last post?


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

NealTW
Thanks for that link

However Kent homes are just a few miles away ..we did think of that until we saw the $ tag.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

No ... I did save it to look it over.
Thanks.

The lazy way is 2X10's nailed together and hug the outside wall, place a 2X10 flush with the inside wall, and use spray foam to fill the void.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> No ... I did save it to look it over.
> Thanks.
> 
> The lazy way is 2X10's nailed together and hug the outside wall, place a 2X10 flush with the inside wall, and use spray foam to fill the void.


The load transfers from the outside of the wall to the rim joist Below.
The inner 2" of a 2x6 wall is for insulation.

This wheel has been invented for a while.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Not sure how this gets to be so difficult. The two bye ten outer core.....foam inner core.....two bye ten inner core would, as earlier stated, fail where I am....(not far from Easton!). Think a put it this way. Imagine a two bye six wall, five and a half inches thick. Take two two bye eights and span an opening. Put one at the front and one at the back. And leave 2 1/2" inches in the middle. OR nail the two byes together. So give some thought as to what is stronger. Ron


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I understand that the nailed 2X10's are the way to go.
2 -2X10's nailed together on the outside , then a 2X10 nailed flush to inside (nailing /blocking) wall giving me 1" to insulate .
Yes ??


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Sean McGill said:


> I understand that the nailed 2X10's are the way to go.
> 2 -2X10's nailed together on the outside , then a 2X10 nailed flush to inside (nailing /blocking) wall giving me 1" to insulate .
> Yes ??


Yes.

A 2x4 or 2x6 inside would be plenty for installing blinds and such I imagine.
Insulation insulates way better than wood.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill
123pugsy did not agree with you.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

Excellent!
Thanks for clearing that up!
I have 10 windows to frame up this coming week, in Canada Eh!
Thanks one and all!


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> Sean McGill
> 123pugsy did not agree with you.


What :vs_mad:
What did I miss?
I did'nt think I was this dense .. am I getting senile...


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Sean McGill said:


> What :vs_mad:
> What did I miss?
> I did'nt think I was this dense .. am I getting senile...



What did I miss also?

I just said a 2x10 for the inside piece was a bit large if you only need it as a backer for installing blinds and such.

For strength, it's not needed.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Sean McGill said:


> Excellent!
> Thanks for clearing that up!
> I have 10 windows to frame up this coming week, in Canada Eh!
> Thanks one and all!


He meant you could put a 2x6 block at the end.
The height of the top of the window is dedicated by the over hang of the roof.
Out hear even with 9 and 10 ft ceiling the window is on the top just under a 2x10 header is at the top of the wall with a sill under it.
Your plan should show just where to put the window from the top. but what ever we always put the block below the header instead of the header going below the block like they do in the states.

Frame doors 2 inches wider than the plans says and double doors 3 inches wider.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Here's a pic.
I agree with my framer that this method is superior.
Studs or trusses above can land anywhere without bending the top plate.

A little hard to see in the pic. Double 2x8's for the small windows and doors.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

Using a 2X10 for blocking seems easier .

To confuse things more...
I was going to make my windows the same height as the door.
82 -1/2 from the subfloor to the bottom of the header.
Do I need to change this?
Ok lets see what happens now.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> Here's a pic.
> I agree with my framer that this method is superior.
> Studs or trusses above can land anywhere without bending the top plate.
> 
> A little hard to see in the pic. Double 2x8's for the small windows and doors.


Thar house is WELL braced.:glasses:


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> Thar house is WELL braced.:glasses:


It's kind of a problem. Now that we're moved in, I find myself tripping over them....

Actually, the framers did a pretty good job.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

Sean McGill said:


> So something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


by separating the two 2x10s like that your not creating a header... that method will pretty much fail a inspection every time no matter what. they have to be laminated


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> He meant you could put a 2x6 block at the end.
> The height of the top of the window is dedicated by the over hang of the roof.
> Out hear even with 9 and 10 ft ceiling the window is on the top just under a 2x10 header is at the top of the wall with a sill under it.
> Your plan should show just where to put the window from the top. but what ever we always put the block below the header instead of the header going below the block like they do in the states.
> ...


3" wider ??????? thats going to make for a ton of shims.. i hang all the doors on the homes i renovate and frame.. 2 1/2" is more than enough for both single and double doors.. 2" only works if the framer built the opening perfectly plumb.. if its so much as 3/8" out of plumb the door may not fit in the opening .. openings do get framed that far out of plumb and you end up having to remove a jack stud and replace it with 1" material


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

woodworkbykirk said:


> 3" wider ??????? thats going to make for a ton of shims.. i hang all the doors on the homes i renovate and frame.. 2 1/2" is more than enough for both single and double doors.. 2" only works if the framer built the opening perfectly plumb.. if its so much as 3/8" out of plumb the door may not fit in the opening .. openings do get framed that far out of plumb and you end up having to remove a jack stud and replace it with 1" material


A pre framed exterior door measures 1 1/2" more than the slab. We built stuff plumb.
Double exterior door has a center board between the tow doors some make the piece as small as 1/2? others make that 1" There for 3"
Adding shims is quite a bit easier that removing a frame and header to add a 1/2 inch too the width.
http://www.ezhangdoor.com/door-rough-opening-sizes-and-charts


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

i didnt realize you were talking about exterior i was refferring to interior doors... anyhow.. for exterior i simply go by the window and door schedule as to what size rough opening as different door manufacturers use different thicknesses of jamb stock which can effect r.os


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

woodworkbykirk said:


> i didnt realize you were talking about exterior i was refferring to interior doors... anyhow.. for exterior i simply go by the window and door schedule as to what size rough opening as different door manufacturers use different thicknesses of jamb stock which can effect r.os


All the suppliers we had here used the same size stock but you can find that same chart for every door outfit.:smile:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

woodworkbykirk said:


> i didnt realize you were talking about exterior i was refferring to interior doors... anyhow.. for exterior i simply go by the window and door schedule as to what size rough opening as different door manufacturers use different thicknesses of jamb stock which can effect r.os


He has trusses coming so unless he has girder landing in the house the interior won't need headers.:vs_cool:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> All the suppliers we had here used the same size stock but you can find that same chart for every door outfit.:smile:


very true.. most of the exterior units i install are "peter kohler which have 1" stock. occasionally i install Norwood windows and doors which have 1 1/2" wood frames. just a matter of checking the paper work to be sure however i have run into the provided r.o sizes provided being wrong by upwards of 1 inch a few times


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

Just to complicate things... The cripples next to the jacks aren't really necessary and are just more thermal bridging making a cold spot at that window. _Discuss!_


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

NotyeruncleBob said:


> Just to complicate things... The cripples next to the jacks aren't really necessary and are just more thermal bridging making a cold spot at that window. _Discuss!_


Agree. And another 1-1/2" to drill thru for wires.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> Agree. And another 1-1/2" to drill thru for wires.


3" since there's two of 'em.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

NotyeruncleBob said:


> 3" since there's two of 'em.


Yep. An extra 1-1/2 making it 4-1/2". 

There is no downward force on the sill board so the extra cripples are a waste.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> Yep. An extra 1-1/2 making it 4-1/2".


We always put it here with out a thought, no one ever complained or maybe we would have left them out.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> We always put it here with out a thought, no one ever complained or maybe we would have left them out.


I'm complaining. 
Read up a little on advanced framing aka Optimum Value Engineering and you'll see how much of a difference it can make in thermal performance and lumber costs without affecting the strength of the structure. 
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/07/29/advanced-wall-framing

I've been incorporating a lot of the advanced framing techniques (except single top plate due to code req here) and after you do it a couple times it becomes second nature and faster than the old school approach.


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## Sean McGill (Jun 19, 2017)

I got all the windows in !
A shot of the loft area under construction.
Yes that's a triple 2X10 header 12'2" lon sitting on 4 2X4's and 3 2X6's in the wall.


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