# stubbing out hotwater heater?



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Go with a 40 gal. tank, only need one shut off to the incoming cold side.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

joecaption - wow - a record braking response time - thanks very much for chiming in right away!


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

1. A rough in height escapes me right now- sorry. defiantly above your heater though:yes: Have you considered room for an expansion tank if required?
2. Stub out copper 
3.I use the flex lines because I can. Other plumbers will disagree. check your code. I cannot connect PEX to a heater. Must be 18" developed length away
4. Most homes only valve the cold side. Commercial work- usually both. your choice.
5. My choice would be 40 gal
Have you planned your t&p valve piping? What is your code requirement?


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

Hey EPlumber thanks for the reply. Good question re t&p - I haven't planned anything for the run so far - I'm not sure what the code requirements are (Ontario, Canada) - maybe someone here can help me out with that? I'm wondering if I can just run this to my sump pit in the crawl space? that would be easy, if it makes sense. 

Re: expansion tank - another thing I'm a bit clueless about - my system is fed from underground cistern (we're out in the sticks) - I use a shallow well jet pump with 2 bladder tanks hooked up in-line, and the current pressure switch is set to cut off at 40 psi, and there's also a pressure relief valve installed right at the tank tee. This valve drains into the sump pit in the crawl space via simple run of garden hose right now - poor man's solution . Would an expansion tank at the water heater still be a consideration given this setup?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

You do not need an expansion tank with a well pump system- your pump expansion tank performs the same purpose.

Most standard 30 - 50 gallon WHs are about 55" tall, bring your rough-outs about 8-15" above that. If for some reason (usually space limitations) you are planning on using a low-boy or a tall WH, you will have to make adjustments.

Plumb the T&P valve down to the WH drip pan. Plumb the pan to the sump.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

We go 68" off the floor.

What that equates to is about 8" above the heater. That will give you room to have an 18" flex on it without being too short on the hot side.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

Alan / rjniles - thanks for the clarification and the additional info - much appreciated.

I think I have everything I need to plan this out now (except, of course, the tank :laughing. Thanks again everyone! Great forum...


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

rjniles said:


> Plumb the T&P valve down to the WH drip pan. Plumb the pan to the sump.


I used to do this. Now my inspectors won't allow it. T&P should join the indirect waste pipe after the pan. It is then up sized two pipe diameters to allow for the sudden pressure dump of an open T&P valve. Or we pipe the T&P directly outside.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

TheEplumber said:


> I used to do this. Now my inspectors won't allow it. T&P should join the indirect waste pipe after the pan. It is then up sized two pipe diameters to allow for the sudden pressure dump of an open T&P valve. Or we pipe the T&P directly outside.


sorry if I'm not understanding this, but in this scenario does this mean the pan could still be plumbed to my sump, but with t&p connecting to the same run as opposed to just dropping down into the pan? the outside option also seems interesting - the tank will be within a few feet of an exterior wall. Any special considerations there if I just push the pipe outside right thru the wall?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

rtoni said:


> sorry if I'm not understanding this, but in this scenario does this mean the pan could still be plumbed to my sump, but with t&p connecting to the same run as opposed to just dropping down into the pan? the outside option also seems interesting - the tank will be within a few feet of an exterior wall. Any special considerations there if I just push the pipe outside right thru the wall?


Yes, I join the two together using a 11/4x3/4x3/4" tee outside of the pan and pipe to the sump. I run the combined line in 1.25" min. pipe to handle the T&P discharge. Again, this is my local code requirement. Maybe not in your area.
As for piping to the exterior, it should terminate outside, at least 6" above ground and have a elbow pointing down- preferably with no threads so some dumbo doesn't thread a cap or plug on it when it starts dripping. The drawback to piping outside is cold climate conditions. If the T&P should ever start dripping and it ices shut, then you've effectively capped the pipe and created a steam powered rocket  Check out Youtube for WH explosions.
Piping reliefs really depends on your inspectors. I have seen many effective methods. And if you maintain the heater properly chances are the pan and T&P will never be used.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

Outside is a freeze issue where I am. So likely I'll just keep everything inside. 

thanks again TheEplumber and everyone...


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

I got my 3/4 water lines (pex to copper) installed and stubbed out this weekend. I put a ball valve on the cold water side and threaded connections on both ends to hook up to flex lines above the tank. I almost grabbed the stainless steel braided connections on the way out but I hesitated. The local HD sells these: 

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/stainless-steel-water-supply-connector/924699

The reason I hedged is that the building supply store across the street carries another brand for @ $6 or $7 each, as opposed to almost $25 each for the Watts.

One difference I could see is the fact that the Watts connectors appear to have the plastic sleeve in the ends (dielectric?) but I'm not sure I need this since the tank I'm looking at has the dielectric nipples. Is this correct?

The Watts brand "felt" like a heavier / better quality, whereas the other brand just seemed like a 3/4 " version of any other flex line (toilet, vanity, etc.). Apologies as I can't recall the brand name for the other (cheaper) units but the fact that they are about a quarter the price of the Watts leaves me wondering if it's really overkill to spend $50 on 2 flex connections when I hook it up for $12?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

TThis the the type flex I prefer, a lot less that $25 each.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks rjniles - I've never worked with the corrugated flex lines - is that available in the box stores?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

rtoni said:


> Thanks rjniles - I've never worked with the corrugated flex lines - is that available in the box stores?


I get them at a plumbing supply but I have seen them at Home Depot. Home Depot does not carry them in as many different lengths.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

another question on the drain pan - can I use a black poly pipe to carry this drain line to the sump pit in my crawl space? It's probably 40 or 50' from tank to sump, and I have some free stuff (1 1/4") coiled up that someone donated a while ago - and maybe even a couple leftover threaded poly fittings - maybe I can hook this right up to the pan. I'd have to figure out how to hook in the t&p drain as per EPlumber's advice - maybe an ABS tee first at the pan to accommodate the t&p, then all poly from there...? This would be really easy. Any thoughts?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

In my area that would be fine. We are not required to do anything with the TP valve other that stub it down to the drip pan. You are may require something different as eplumber suggests.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

I bought my water heater - ended up with a bottom inlet model. My water feed with valve is up above the tank height. I guess my planning sucks.

Anyway, I'm thinking I'll plumb the bottom inlet up to @ the top height of the tank with 3/4" copper pipe, threaded connection on top, and just treat it like it's a top located nipple. And use flex connector from there to the inlet / valve.

Is that enough to stabilize this pipe (solid at the bottom but it would only be held at the top by a flex connector). Or should I make this a solid connection with copper pipe all the way to the valve? Or move the feed / valve in the wall?


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

rjniles said:


> You do not need an expansion tank with a well pump system- your pump expansion tank performs the same purpose.


the FAQ's on my tank:

_As part of the redesign of our water heaters to meet the 2004 Natural Resources Canada energy efficiency standard, GSW has added heat traps to the cold water inlet and the hot water outlet on most of our products. These thermoplastic devices are designed to reduce stand-by heat loss from water heaters. GSW heat traps have a tadpole design. 

The tadpole in the cold water inlet heat trap (blue) is lighter than water. As cold water is drawn into the tank, it is pushed down, it then floats up to reseat when water flow stops. It is furnished as a dip tube assembly. 

A heavier-than-water tadpole in the heat trap for the hot water outlet (pink) is pushed up when hot water is drawn from the tank, and then sinks to reseat in the absence of water flow. 

Each heat trap fitting features safety relief ports to prevent accidental closure of the waterway. In addition, these plastic lined galvanized steel nipples create a dielectric waterway that prevents galvanic action between dissimilar metals. _

I interpret this to mean that water won't flow when there's no fixture in use, which implies pressure can build in the tank. But then they talk about safety relief ports in the heat traps, which tells me pressure can't build up in the tank. So now I'm confused. Does the heat trap just help stop the water in the tank from "mixing" with water in the pipes near the tank, but still allowing pressure to release (to an expansion tank, or in my case, the bladder tank?).

Thanks for the patience in helping me understand this. It's pretty cool stuff...


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