# Critique my Kitchen Wiring Schematic



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Smoke detectors need to be on there own circut.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

joecaption said:


> Smoke detectors need to be on there own circut.


No they dont... unless a state amendment exist, and they are actually smoke alarms...  

But they also can't be on the SABC of the kitchen, feed the smoke off the lighting circuit.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

I would run a 12-3 to the sink cabinet for the DW and Disposal...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Along with the the other smoke alarm comments, there is no way I would install one in a kitchen.

There can be no spot on a kitchen countertop more than 2' from a receptacle.

Is this an electric range or gas?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> Along with the the other smoke alarm comments, there is no way I would install one in a kitchen.


Me neither... or outside of a bathroom for that matter.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)




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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'll run the smoke alarm off of the lighting circuit. I have a requirement in my jurisdiction that I have to include one. Also, the smoke devices are both detectors and alarms, as they must first detect smoke and then send an alarm when detected. 

Stickboy, why the 12/3 to the dishwasher and disposal? I have no problem doing this, but am wondering what it would gain me?

I should be ok with the 2' between receptacles. The space on the far right-hand side of the kitchen, in the middle, is actually a window and a window seat, so there is no countertop right there.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

Oh, and the range is all gas, but with electric ignition. (the 240v outlet in the lighting diagram should be removed)


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> Thanks guys. I'll run the smoke alarm off of the lighting circuit. I have a requirement in my jurisdiction that I have to include one. Also, the smoke devices are both detectors and alarms, as they must first detect smoke and then send an alarm when detected.


The NFPA feels differently, but its a non issue.  



patented said:


> Stickboy, why the 12/3 to the dishwasher and disposal? I have no problem doing this, but am wondering what it would gain me?


For two reasons, one being, if your appliances call for dedicated circuits, the second reason in case you add an appliance later on, insta-hot etc... easier to run that spare wire now... and it wont cost you much more. And I would pull this wire to the actual sink cabinet and install a cord on the dishwasher.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> For two reasons, one being, if your appliances call for dedicated circuits, the second reason in case you add an appliance later on, insta-hot etc... easier to run that spare wire now... and it wont cost you much more.


Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. If they call for separate circuits, I assume you are saying I can use a common neutral and then run the red and black wires to separate breakers at the panel? 

Thanks again, you guys are a huge help.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. If they call for separate circuits, I assume you are saying I can use a common neutral and then run the red and black wires to separate breakers at the panel?
> 
> Thanks again, you guys are a huge help.


Correct with the breaker situation.

And you could just break the tab off the duplex receptacle and have two circuits on one duplex receptacle...


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> And you could just break the tab off the duplex receptacle and have two circuits on one duplex receptacle...


Another good suggestion!


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Will this smoke alarm be tied into the other ones in the house? Do they require you to bring the entire house up to todays smoke alarm code?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> Will this smoke alarm be tied into the other ones in the house? Do they require you to bring the entire house up to todays smoke alarm code?


I know around here they cant force you do to that, but the OP will have to check on what they actually require...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Some places here a building permit will trigger the need to upgrade the smoke alarms to current standards.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> Some places here a building permit will trigger the need to upgrade the smoke alarms to current standards.


Even if it includes 'hardship' on the owner? I cant see how they can force you to rewire part of the house.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Might be hard to claim hardship when they have money for an addition to be added to the house.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

Guys, there is a provision in the code that says you must interconnect all the smoke alarms when doing a remodel...BUT...there is an exception that says if you have to remove drywall to do so, then you do NOT have to bring all the smoke alarms up to code (being interconnected and hard-wired). 

I have actually already discussed this with the inspector, and he is OK with me NOT interconnecting all of the smoke detectors in the house.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> Might be hard to claim hardship when they have money for an addition to be added to the house.


Think of this, you are making someone open up finished areas of a house, that could run in the thousands of dollars if not more, depending on the size of the house and difficulty of the upgrade... anyways... here is what the state of CT has to say about it...



(Amd) R313.1.1 Alterations and additions. When alterations or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the entire dwelling shall be provided with smoke detectors located as required for new dwellings. The smoke detectors shall have a power source in accordance with Section R313.2.
Exceptions:

1. The smoke detectors may be battery operated and are* not required to be interconnected* when other remodeling considerations do not require the removal of the appropriate wall and ceiling coverings to facilitate concealed interconnected wiring.

2. Alterations to the exterior surfaces of dwellings including, but not limited to, re-roofing, re-siding, window replacement and the construction of decks without roofs, are exempt from the requirements of this section.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> Guys, there is a provision in the code that says you must interconnect all the smoke alarms when doing a remodel...BUT...there is an exception that says if you have to remove drywall to do so, then you do NOT have to bring all the smoke alarms up to code (being interconnected and hard-wired).
> 
> I have actually already discussed this with the inspector, and he is OK with me NOT interconnecting all of the smoke detectors in the house.


Sorry to hikack the thread, we were just discussing requirements... not entirely directing the comments at your scenario.

Since a smoke is NOT required in the kitchen, why not just throw a battery operated smoke in the room off the kitchen? I wouldn't want that thing going off every time I cooked.


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## herdfan (Jul 7, 2012)

I noticed only 2 S3 switches. How many entrances are their to the kitchen. Can't really tell from the diagram.

Also, in keeping with Stickyboy's advice about running the 12/3 in case you need it later, have you thought about under and over cabinet lighting. Real easy to run those wires now vs later.

And he mentioned an instant hot water tap. Great idea. Wife resisted, but now loves hers.

In my sink base where the feed for the D/W comes in, it goes into a box with a receptacle. Leg goes out to the D/W and the disposal and instant hot plugged into the receptacle. Probably not code, but it's a 15-year old house.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

herdfan said:


> In my sink base where the feed for the D/W comes in, it goes into a box with a receptacle. Leg goes out to the D/W and the disposal and instant hot plugged into the receptacle. Probably not code, but it's a 15-year old house.


I like to install cords and receptacles for the disconnect means. Otherwise you're suppose to have breaker locks, i've yet to ever see one installed. :no:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

herdfan said:


> I noticed only 2 S3 switches. How many entrances are their to the kitchen. Can't really tell from the diagram.



You know you're not required to have switches by the doors, right? its strictly a design issue. You could use the breakers if you felt so inclined to do so.


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## homerenovator (Aug 2, 2012)

Ever thought about pendant lighting over the island for additional lighting options... so you do not have to have all of the recessed lights on when you are preparing a meal and only need an area of lighting? Also, when you put the smoke alarm on the lighting circuit, be sure that you do not install it on a SWITCHED wire.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> You know you're not required to have switches by the doors, right? its strictly a design issue. You could use the breakers if you felt so inclined to do so.


I have put the switches by the two "main" openings to the kitchen. The other openings are rooms that someone would have already had to have gone through the kitchen to get to.

Also, to go to one of the previous poster's points regarding "hardship," I do have money for the remodel, but not necessarily for a whole-house rewire and re-drywall. Luckily, the exception doesnt relate to "hardship" but rather to opening up walls. Interestingly, if I had an attic above the bedrooms, they would consider that easy enough to make you run the interconnected alarms.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> I have put the switches by the two "main" openings to the kitchen. The other openings are rooms that someone would have already had to have gone through the kitchen to get to.
> 
> Also, to go to one of the previous poster's points regarding "hardship," I do have money for the remodel, but not necessarily for a whole-house rewire and re-drywall. Luckily, the exception doesnt relate to "hardship" but rather to opening up walls. Interestingly, if I had an attic above the bedrooms, they would consider that easy enough to make you run the interconnected alarms.


Pretty much what CT wants, get them where its readily accessible without disturbing the existing wall coverings... which seems fair to me, but still big brother too... that's our government, always making sure were safe as a bug in a rug.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Pretty much what CT wants, get them where its readily accessible without disturbing the existing wall coverings... which seems fair to me, but still big brother too... that's our government, always making sure were safe as a bug in a rug.


In an effort to derail my own thread:whistling2:, I saw that First Alert has wireless "interconnected" alarms out now. They can be hardwired or battery operated. Anyone tried these as an alternative to the regular interconnected alarms?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> In an effort to derail my own thread:whistling2:, I saw that First Alert has wireless "interconnected" alarms out now. They can be hardwired or battery operated. Anyone tried these as an alternative to the regular interconnected alarms?


Yes, I use them often... comes in handy when a inspector insists a office is a bedroom and a smoke wasnt roughed in.... :whistling2:


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## Rochsolid (Aug 29, 2012)

Why do you have GFI everywhere? In Canada's they are only required if you are within 1.5m o a sink. Also I would run 12/2 to my counter plugs, 20 amp breakers and split T receptacles


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> Why do you have GFI everywhere? In Canada's they are only required if you are within 1.5m o a sink. Also I would run 12/2 to my counter plugs, 20 amp breakers and split T receptacles


Probably because the OP is in the USA, and every receptacle serving the countertop must be GFCI protected... but we dont need silly 20 amp receptacles...


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Rochsolid said:


> Why do you have GFI everywhere? In Canada's they are only required if you are within 1.5m o a sink. Also I would run 12/2 to my counter plugs, 20 amp breakers and split T receptacles


The US code requires every counter top receptacle to be gfci protected.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

jbfan said:


> The US code requires every counter top receptacle to be gfci protected.


Basically the same way in France. also 20 amp circuit beside the fridge can use 16 amp circuit but the lights have to be on other circuit either 10 or 16 amp circuit depending on conductor size.

Merci,
Marc


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## silversport (Feb 4, 2012)

patented said:


> In an effort to derail my own thread:whistling2:, I saw that First Alert has wireless "interconnected" alarms out now. They can be hardwired or battery operated. Anyone tried these as an alternative to the regular interconnected alarms?


I have 9 First Alert OneLink (wireless) w/voice smoke alarms in my house. Two are hardwired, seven are battery. A few are combo smoke/CO. Installed for a year, tested once a month, no problems so far.

My house (built 1984) had two hardwired non-interconnected smoke alarms when I bought it -- one in basement and one in hall on second floor. No alarms in bedrooms or main level.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the posts. I think I will look into the OneLink smoke alarms. 

PS - I am in the USA (Missouri).


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

I do not see any wall receptacles.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Code05 said:


> I do not see any wall receptacles.


Nice catch Derek. I would have thought someone would have seen that awhile ago.

Call me.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Code05 said:


> I do not see any wall receptacles.


Im hoping they are existing and he's renovating the existing space?


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> Nice catch Derek. I would have thought someone would have seen that awhile ago.


Thanks.



> Call me.


Will do.



stickboy1375 said:


> Im hoping they are existing and he's renovating the existing space?


Maybe. OP did not say.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Code05 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Will do.
> 
> ...


I figured he didn't draw them in for a reason.... guess we'll have to wait and see.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> I figured he didn't draw them in for a reason.... guess we'll have to wait and see.


There basically arent any walls in the kitchen that do not have countertop/cabinets. The areas to the leftmost side of the diagram are "existing" wall spaces with outlets, but otherwise there are mainly just doors and stairwells separated by very short sections of wall. 

There is one wall receptacle located on the top, middle wall, and one located at the bottom of the diagram. Thats about it though. Its a VERY open space, so all of the receptacles are basically ending up on the islands or above countertops.

I should note that the kitchen is basically in the middle of my house, so there are a bunch of openings to other rooms.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> There basically arent any walls in the kitchen that do not have countertop/cabinets. The areas to the leftmost side of the diagram are "existing" wall spaces with outlets, but otherwise there are mainly just doors and stairwells separated by very short sections of wall.
> 
> There is one wall receptacle located on the top, middle wall, and one located at the bottom of the diagram. Thats about it though. Its a VERY open space, so all of the receptacles are basically ending up on the islands or above countertops.
> 
> I should note that the kitchen is basically in the middle of my house, so there are a bunch of openings to other rooms.


You still need receptacles for the wall space, any wall that is 2' minimum , and fixed glass counts as wall space, but if it was all existing, I'm betting you are okay.


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

This might help


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> This might help


So are the spaces between the doors 24"? if so, are there receptacles there?


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## patented (Aug 1, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> So are the spaces between the doors 24"? if so, are there receptacles there?


The two toward the bottom left are 30" wide. One has a receptacle, but I will have to add one to the other. 

Thanks for pointing this out!


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

patented said:


> The two toward the bottom left are 30" wide. One has a receptacle, but I will have to add one to the other.
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out!


No problem, they will have to be supplied by a 20 amp circuit if the area is considered kitchen, dining room, breakfast room or similar room.


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