# Washing Machine Drain Stumper



## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

Sounds like you know a lot more about washers then me. We have an upright washer and the hose runs higher than the top of machine and then drops down into the drain. My drain is at 42 inches and the machine has a 1 foot lift under it.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

I think it's broken. :whistling2:

Under warranty?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

123pugsy said:


> I think it's broken. :whistling2:
> 
> Under warranty?


Yes, it's broken! It worked for 5 years before starting to get intermittent throw nd codes (no drain). That is why I posted on the DIY chatroom. What is broken?

It isn't tub drain to the pump tube. That is clear. The drain tube from pump to the drain in the wall was cleaned out.

It wasn't the power board that controls the power to the pump. That was replaced and had no effect. 

It wasn't the pump it's self, that was replaced and had no effect.

I have a drain tube on order, but it seems like a long shot.. Why won't my pump generate sufficient head pressure to always empty out the tub basin?

-Jeff


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

zootjeff said:


> Yes, it's broken! It worked for 5 years before starting to get intermittent throw nd codes (no drain). That is why I posted on the DIY chatroom. What is broken?
> 
> It isn't tub drain to the pump tube. That is clear. The drain tube from pump to the drain in the wall was cleaned out.
> 
> ...


Jeez. These things are just like modern cars. Throwing codes and then the owner starts throwing parts at it.


Have you hooked up power to the pump to see what happens, ie bypass the control board? Could two control boards be bad. Never know.

Have you tried dumping the drain hose into a bucket, say 2' off the floor to see if 3' is too high for it?

Just throwing anything out there. It may help spark an idea.

If the pump doesn't fill completely, it will just spit air and water and won't flow up the tube I would imagine. Is there some kind of solenoid that allows water to the pump?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

*Well I had planned to post this in the Plumbing forum..*

So this is my pluming for the washer. It is about 34" to the top of the drain opening from the floor. Are there any codes on things like this? I found that the pump on the washer does not have enough power to consistently drain if there is an inch of water in the drum. If there are a few inches, then it can generate enough head pressure to get it going and then momentum takes over and it drains.

Who designs a drain pump that can't get 34" high?


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

zootjeff said:


> So this is my pluming for the washer. It is about 34" to the top of the drain opening from the floor. Are there any codes on things like this? I found that the pump on the washer does not have enough power to consistently drain if there is an inch of water in the drum. If there are a few inches, then it can generate enough head pressure to get it going and then momentum takes over and it drains.
> 
> Who designs a drain pump that can't get 34" high?


I think the code for trap is 12" minimum above floor. and minimum height of stand pipe is 18" above pipe. and of course they do need vents. But not real sure on that.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

zootjeff said:


> Who designs a drain pump that can't get 34" high?


My laundry tub is 3' high and the drain hose dumps in there no problem.

Take the height of your plumbing out of the equation and concentrate on your machine.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

123pugsy said:


> My laundry tub is 3' high and the drain hose dumps in there no problem.
> 
> Take the height of your plumbing out of the equation and concentrate on your machine.


OK, then what would you do? I've changed the power board, I've changed the pump assembly. Still can't generate enough head pressure. I've hooked it up to a Variac and tried 120-140 volts, still not enough head pressure.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

I'd do one thing at a time.

Starting here:

So, you've disconnected the hose from the pump and poured water into the tub and it flows out fast with no slow downs?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

123pugsy said:


> I'd do one thing at a time.
> 
> Starting here:
> 
> So, you've disconnected the hose from the pump and poured water into the tub and it flows out fast with no slow downs?


1. There is a hose from the basin tub to the pump. Removed inspected. No restrictions.
2. There is a impeller pump that is part of the drain clean-out assembly. Old one was completely free and clear, new one is, well brand new and very clean and clear. New one works the same as the old one..
3. There is a single hose from the pump through the chassis, up to the drain of the house. It has been removed, blown out, looked through. It is completely clean. Like I said, when you reduce the height of the output, the tub is drained extremely fast, maybe a 4 gallons per minute rate. If there was any obstruction, this would not be possible.. 

So, I've been fighting this thing for weeks. Pump gets 120v, pump has no problem running. If I put a lot of water in the tub >3", the momentum, or "chain reaction" takes it all out when the pump kicks on, probably due to the higher head pressure from the tub helping the pump.. The tough spot is when there is about 1" of water in the tub, it struggles against the head pressure up the drain hose, some times completes it after several minutes of struggling, some times throws the nd code. In every case I've tried, lowering the head pressure by lowering the drain hose from 34" to 20" causes it to evacuate at a high rate.

Thoughts?

-Jeff


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

zootjeff said:


> 1. There is a hose from the basin tub to the pump. Removed inspected. No restrictions.
> 2. There is a impeller pump that is part of the drain clean-out assembly. Old one was completely free and clear, new one is, well brand new and very clean and clear. New one works the same as the old one..
> 3. There is a single hose from the pump through the chassis, up to the drain of the house. It has been removed, blown out, looked through. It is completely clean. Like I said, when you reduce the height of the output, the tub is drained extremely fast, maybe a 4 gallons per minute rate. If there was any obstruction, this would not be possible..
> 
> ...


I think for some reason the last bit of water is not running into the pump. If the last bit all hit the pump and filled it up, it would pump out.

Or just coil enough hose in the base of the machine that would hold the volume of water that's left in the tank and it will run there by gravity and get discharged on the next load.

How much water is there total between the 1" in the tub and the pump?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

123pugsy said:


> I think for some reason the last bit of water is not running into the pump. If the last bit all hit the pump and filled it up, it would pump out.
> 
> Or just coil enough hose in the base of the machine that would hold the volume of water that's left in the tank and it will run there by gravity and get discharged on the next load.
> 
> How much water is there total between the 1" in the tub and the pump?


The 1" in the tub plus the water in the hoses down to the pump is about 3/4 gallon. The pump is at the lowest point. I don't follow your logic here. I don't think that would work.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

If it can't pump out the last bit of water, give the water some where to go.

If I were you, by this point, I would have bought a new washing machine.


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

zootjeff said:


> I have a WF338AAW/XAA. I have replaced the pump and the main power circuit board. The unit still has an intermittent drain and will throw the ND code..
> 
> I have pulled all the hoses off a couple times. Looked at the drain tub hose to pump, no issue, cleaned out the drain hose.
> 
> It really looks like there is a design flaw here. The unit will leave just a little bit of water in the tub, if I pull out the machine and bring the hose down to a 5 gallon bucket level, it drains out over a gallon of water. The old pump, the new pump neither seem like they have the ability to consistently get the water up to the 36" high drain in the wall.. Sometimes if we let the unit sit, enough water will settle and then it seems like manages to get the umphff to break the deadlock condition.. Unit will throw the nd code, then I let it sit, maybe it gets over it, maybe i'll drain from the front tube.. Very frustrating..


Samsung issue a service bulletin to their techs on the wa series, to improve pump quality. see here Perhaps there is one on the wf as well. Try calling or go on line to samsung and ask the manufacturer directly what the problem could be. They are a reputable company. If it's still under some kind of warantee, you may get lucky. Just a suggestion.

I feel bad that you have invested all that money and still no results. It has to be very frustrating. Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you. I agree with your design flaw theory.:yes: Hope you can get it figured out soon. Please keep us posted of the results. Thank you.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

jmon said:


> I feel bad that you have invested all that money and still no results. It has to be very frustrating. Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.


Thanks for the heads up!! And thanks for the kind words.. I'll see if that leads anywhere.. My current strategy is going to be to cut a small hole in the wall, install a P-trap on the clean-out on the garage wall, and then roll with that setup for a while.. Yes, it has been very annoying only to find after $300, I'm still where I started.. My poor wife is even worse off than me, dealing with the intermittent performance.. Guess I'll be lobbying consumer reports to publish pump performance results. Wish they would publish actual data, not just colored circles. :huh:


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## bilug (Apr 16, 2014)

Verify the unit is level?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

bilug said:


> Verify the unit is level?


Yes the unit is level I have played with leveling and that's not the issue. 

It really sounds like the pump is churning air with my head at cleanout section of the pump and just not able to create enough force to drain the water and sometimes it snaps out of it and sometimes it just struggles for 15 minutes and throws the code it doesn't matter if there's 1 inch or 2 inches in the tub. gravity is not the issue is if the pumps not running the water completely goes the lowest point where the where the pump is. It is a brand new pump. The lines are completely free and water freely flows out if I open up the clean out all the water comes out..


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

zootjeff said:


> Yes the unit is level I have played with leveling and that's not the issue.
> 
> It really sounds like the pump is churning air with my head at cleanout section of the pump and just not able to create enough force to drain the water and sometimes it snaps out of it and sometimes it just struggles for 15 minutes and throws the code it doesn't matter if there's 1 inch or 2 inches in the tub. gravity is not the issue is if the pumps not running the water completely goes the lowest point where the where the pump is. It is a brand new pump. The lines are completely free and water freely flows out if I open up the clean out all the water comes out..


Not sure if you said you checked the water lines for cracks or bad connections where it could be sucking air when it gets low on water.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Confirm the impeller is tight on the shaft, assuming that's the type of pump it is. Just because it's a new pump doesn't mean anything.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Look behind the wall to the right there and see if there is a vent off the other side of the trap. I can't tell from the picture you've posted. It looks like you went to the trouble of exposing the drain pipe so make sure there is a vent in there. That could possibly cause a No drain error code if it is backing up. And no, your drain is not too high off the ground and I doubt the height of the trap off the floor would have any bearing on the problem either.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

Jim F said:


> Look behind the wall to the right there and see if there is a vent off the other side of the trap. I can't tell from the picture you've posted. It looks like you went to the trouble of exposing the drain pipe so make sure there is a vent in there. That could possibly cause a No drain error code if it is backing up. And no, your drain is not too high off the ground and I doubt the height of the trap off the floor would have any bearing on the problem either.


Yes the house is plumbed correctly, the vent is just to the right of the trap..
If the water backed up high enough to stop the drain, I'd have a huge flood.. 
Pretty sure the pump is just a poor design and churns air..


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## bilug (Apr 16, 2014)

You've probably already googled around for solutions but I found this:

Go to the water pressure switch line. Pull the hose off the pressure switch and blow into the rubber hose, NOT THE SWITCH!!!! What's happening is that there is some suds residue inside the hose and is air locking the pressure switch. Once blown out, it should work as normal.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

bilug said:


> You've probably already googled around for solutions but I found this:
> 
> Go to the water pressure switch line. Pull the hose off the pressure switch and blow into the rubber hose, NOT THE SWITCH!!!! What's happening is that there is some suds residue inside the hose and is air locking the pressure switch. Once blown out, it should work as normal.


Yaa, I tried this, I even replaced the sensor.. Not the problem. This would be the case if it wasn't sensing the water level correctly, But it is. It sees 1" of water in the tub. Runs the pump to get it out. Nothing happens while the pump tries for 15 minutes to get the water out. Throws the code.

I want to try to swap out the pump with a different design..


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

zootjeff said:


> Yaa, I tried this, I even replaced the sensor.. Not the problem. This would be the case if it wasn't sensing the water level correctly, But it is. It sees 1" of water in the tub. Runs the pump to get it out. Nothing happens while the pump tries for 15 minutes to get the water out. Throws the code.
> 
> I want to try to swap out the pump with a different design..


OK, so I moved the washer into the Garage to make room for another unit that comes tomorrow.. So far it works ok in the Garage. It appears that leaning forward a bit is helping the pumping process. If this fixes my problem, I'll be thrilled. However I'll still be pissed that "make sure your washer is level" really means "makes sure you tilt it forward so that water drains to the pump and air bubbles drain away.." My washer was perfectly level..

I'll keep ya posted.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

zootjeff said:


> OK, so I moved the washer into the Garage to make room for another unit that comes tomorrow.. So far it works ok in the Garage. It appears that leaning forward a bit is helping the pumping process. If this fixes my problem, I'll be thrilled. However I'll still be pissed that "make sure your washer is level" really means "makes sure you tilt it forward so that water drains to the pump and air bubbles drain away.." My washer was perfectly level..
> 
> I'll keep ya posted.


Nope, It worked ok for 4 loads but after the 4th load it finished the cycle with soaking wet clothes. Then I tried to run a drain and spin cycle and it threw the nd code!! ARG.

Does anyone know if there is a *technical service bulletin* for an improved pump assembly on the Wf338AA washer?
Model: WF338AAW/XAA
Serial: W03F54AQ800196T 2008.08

-Jeff


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## jehiatt (Dec 14, 2006)

*samsung drain-no*

This washer has a water level pressure switch used to shut off water when level is reached. It may also tell pump the tub is drained or not.


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

jehiatt said:


> This washer has a water level pressure switch used to shut off water when level is reached. It may also tell pump the tub is drained or not.


I have blown out the level sensor hose and replaced the sensor. No change, and the sensor is working correctly. The pump runs for 15 minutes because it sees water it needs to pump out.. The pump just sucks and can't reliably pump the water out. Maybe my replacement pump also is weak? Hard to believe that is the issues because they both behave the same way..


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