# problem with behr paint



## sirwired (Jun 22, 2007)

A few things possibly wrong:

1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen. Wash them down with TSP (TriSodiumPhosphate), and rinse just prior to application of the primer. No paint will stick to grease, especially...
2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk. If it would work and save money, you can bet that there would be a line out the door of contractors buying the stuff. If you are having problems you need to get yourself some Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore or other Paint Store paint, and get stuff near or at the top of their lines. Bring in your Behr paint, and any store will be able to match the color. (Low-end SW or BM paint is not meant for a job like this, so don't waste your money on it.)
3) Primer. After scraping and sanding all loose paint off of your wall, use a quality water-base bonding primer from the paint store where you buy your paint. If you bought primer from HD, you probably ended up with Kilz2, which is largely useless.
4) Tape. Tape will peel off any fresh paint job. It takes days to weeks (depending on the paint) for the paint job to cure sufficiently where tape will not peel it off the wall. With a steady hand, a quality brush, and a little bit of practice, you can work without tape, even as a DIY. Tape is great for things like masking off quarter-round, metal hardware, etc. There is no reason to apply it to a painted surface.

As for other advice, get yourself a quality brush (Purdy is an easy-to-find and popular brand) and some quality roller covers (at least a 3/8" nap, 100% poly, or 50/50 poly/woll, and Purdy or Wooster)

SirWired


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## Da Vinci (Jul 1, 2007)

Also, if the previous walls had an enamel finish it could be preventing tooth for the new paint to stick to. A light sanding helps provide this, coupled with zinsser 123 bonding primer and topcoat with BM Regal eggshell you'll have a quality job.

Also, regarding the tape, sirwired is right, tape will pull off fresh acrylic. If you get everything done in one day (painting that is), pull the tape before it can set up. It will pull a straight line pretty consistently- but if you wait too long you'll have to score the edge before pulling it.

Bob
Alamo Painting Contractor


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

*It's a long list on this project....*



sirwired said:


> A few things possibly wrong:
> 
> 1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen....
> 2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk....
> ...


#5


Da Vinci said:


> Also, if the previous walls had an enamel finish it could be preventing tooth for the new paint to stick to....


#6 Common for older paint jobs for the kitchen to be oil based paint. latex often won't stick to oil-based w/o proper prep and (oil-based) prime

Any of these could be your problem, it's probably more than one

As mentioned both Behr and Kilz2 are poor products with high failure rates, especially in less than ideal conditions (which a kitchen would be)

Get some real paint and primer (and much better advice) at a real Paint Store

Kitchens need extra special prep cleaning wise

A scuff sanding is always a good idea anyway, but really needed when painting over eggshell, satin, pearl, or semi-gloss often found in kitchens

Tape is supposed to be a tool, not a crutch, and the most over/mis-used sundry by novices/DIYers...you can't tape fresh un-cured paint (weeks old is still fresh)

Do a test for oil-based paint
Wipe the painted surface with a rag with Ooops!, Goof Off!, or denatured alcohol on it
If nothing comes off onto the rag, it's oil-based paint
If a little tiny bit sort of rubs off, it's probably oil
If it turns liquid and wipes off color onto the wet rag, it's latex


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## user3209 (Jun 6, 2009)

sirwired said:


> A few things possibly wrong:
> 
> 1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen. Wash them down with TSP (TriSodiumPhosphate), and rinse just prior to application of the primer. No paint will stick to grease, especially...
> 2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk. If it would work and save money, you can bet that there would be a line out the door of contractors buying the stuff. If you are having problems you need to get yourself some Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore or other Paint Store paint, and get stuff near or at the top of their lines. Bring in your Behr paint, and any store will be able to match the color. (Low-end SW or BM paint is not meant for a job like this, so don't waste your money on it.)
> ...



My God there are so many things wrong with this where do I start.

First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr but Benjamin Moore is a good product.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

cr8f said:


> First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr


how much did they pay you to come here and post this ridiculous crap?

DM


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## ratherbefishin' (Jun 16, 2007)

cr8f said:


> My God there are so many things wrong with this where do I start.
> 
> First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr but Benjamin Moore is a good product.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: Keep smokin' that stuff, cr8f....it's obviously doing ya lots of good.....:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Tone down the comments and keep it on topic please.

2 deleted already.

Ed


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

sorry Ed, but you HAVE to understand how the regulars here feel......
sirwired, slickshift, davinci, you guys just keep on helping people, your experience has helped many, many of us already and will continue to do so. 
deleted some posts??? i had to scroll up to see if mine was gone... still there....
gee, makes me wonder just how naughty some others were? hehehehe

DM

DM


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## user3209 (Jun 6, 2009)

No kidding.

Let me distill these comments down a little.

Sherwin Williams/Benjamin Moore have to be good because they are paint stores.

Products bought at Home Depot must be bad because they are well ... Home Depot.

Nice simple argument but it is devoid of any facts.

Look up any test organization such as Consumers Union (or others) before making blanket assumptions.

Sherwin Williams sells a lot of bad products and HD sells a lot of good ones. 

The real prerequisite of a good paint job isn't the paint at all...it's preparation. When using any latex product cleanliness is key. You can't just put on a bonding primer and expect it to stick to everything. Oil is better than latex if you're painting over oils and other surface residues but these should be cleaned and shiny surfaces sanded to give them tooth(surface that paint can stick to). 

Hell if most people would just follow the instructions on the back of paint cans they'd be ahead.

There are products sold at hardware and lumber yards that are good and products sold at paint stores that aren't.

From my own experience Behr is very picky on what it sticks to. It needs the right primer and preparation.

Pratt and ambert used to be my favorite paint but was bought up by Sherwin Williams a few years back. They and one other large corporation (ICI I think) have been buying up virtually all the national family owned companies and they qulity has suffered. Benjamin Moore is the only national high quality company left.

Original Kilz is still the top product used by fire and smoke damage companies for restoring burned out interiors. 

Don't like that comment quit with the childish name calling and prove me wrong.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

cr8f said:


> if most people would just follow the instructions on the back of paint cans they'd be ahead.


a most valid point right there.... 

thank you for not returning and being a total @$$ about this, but the professional painters, (and regular folks) here HAVE validated the reasons behind the feelings for behr products many times. 

all paint companies have high-end and low-end cheaper paint, the behr brand just seems to have the most problems, hence the higher #s of negative posts.
as i stated in another post, i personally have never had a problem with any paint! but i've seen other's 'work' and 5 coats still not covering is unacceptable even for watered down whitewash. heck, i buy dollar store paint, 'whatever' brand for 5 bucks a gallon and it's fine for me.

and i totally agree with you that preparation is 99% of the job. if it ain't ready to recieve the paint, no paint will do it right. (greasy kitchen walls come to mind.) 

here's some more reading on kilz2...
http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/kilz-2-latex-mini-report-19892/

search this site for behr, there are far more complaints on it than any other paint.

DM


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## sirwired (Jun 22, 2007)

cr8f,

Since things seem to have calmed down here, I will jump in as the original poster targeted...

SW and BM do indeed sell good products because they are paint stores. In the experience of those on this board, who have attempted to help many DIY-ers get their painting projects to be successful, Behr and their ilk have all the appearance of being highly cost-controlled products targeted towards consumers that want to pay as little as possible for their paint. Many consumers here have reported many problems with Behr coverage (mostly in the deep colors, reds especially) and consistency. I personally applied Behr waterproofing so bad, it was the subject of a class-action lawsuit. (It mildewed after only a week, and it's water protection quickly broke down in sunlight.)

To top it off, the paint is usually sold by undertrained employees that have little understanding of how to handle individual situations. I once personally witnessed an employee overfill a paint can with colorant, an indication that the employee used the wrong base. The response of the employee: tell the customer: "I guess you get a little extra paint for free this time." Yes, SW and BM dealers do have some bad apples here and there, but they both likely have far lower turnover and better training for their employees. Paint stores also have a better selection; Big Box does not even sell waterbourne enamels similar to ProClassic or Impervo. (Yes, Behr is water-based, and calls itself an enamel, but it isn't the same as those two products, which provide an oil-like finish on trim in a water-base product.)

We do admit to being quite puzzled by the CR testing of paint. We suspect that CR, for cost, speed, and consistency reasons, does not apply paint in completely realistic situations. In addition, since Behr is a DIY-targeted brand, it would make sense for them to target their paint design to CR's tests, instead of perhaps actual painting projects, which are inherently different from a lab.

SW and BM do indeed sell products completely unsuitable for a DIY. However, for the most part, these products are specialty contractor products meant for highly-specific uses, such as a low-end apartment repaint. (Okay, the SW Visible Solutions paint is, indeed, complete crap (according to several reports here), but it is only one product among hundreds.)

Yes, prep is indeed the key to many paint jobs. However, the paint should not go out of its way to make the job harder; a paint that is "very picky as to what it sticks to" is not a paint I would want to use.

We do not have any criticism here for Original Kilz. We routinely recommend it to consumers needing an easy-to-find oil-base primer (the upwards-shooting can for water-spots is especially useful.) It is just water-base Kilz products that receive a resolute thumbs-down here. Many customers have reported serious adhesion problems with Kilz2, including it literally falling off the wall. It appears to have these issues even in unchallenging environments such as well-cleaned brand-new drywall. I am a little puzzled by your comment about Original Kilz being used for smoke restoration though; serious smoke damage usually requires a shellac-based primer such as Zinsser BIN, or SW PrepRite Pigmented Shellac.

SirWired


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## Schramm (Jun 7, 2009)

Well I dont agree that Behr Paint is junk, it is definatly a lower grade of paint then some but it is also higher then others. I have been a painter for 23 years and from the way this was talked about I would say improper prep is the reason why it didnt bond. I do agree that the walls may have had grease on them and if you used something like bullseye 123 or other water based primer that would not help at all. You actually needed to use an oil based bonding primer and maybe more then 1 coat after you 100% cleaned the walls with a soap like dawn and water. I do not agree with TSP as the amount of rinsing that you would have to do would destroy the walls but Dawn really does take grease out of the way.

FIX: Clean the walls as is with a dawn soap and water, sand the walls lightly with a sanding block and wipe them down and then apply an oil primer and allow that to dry overnight. Since the walls look destroyed and I have not seen pics I will just take your word either skim coat them or texture them using joint compound, then oil prime again and then you can paint. Much less expensive then remove and replace and much nicer looking (if you texture) then just painting over a badly painted surface.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

cr8f said:


> No kidding.
> 
> Let me distill these comments down a little.
> 
> ...


Wrong. Bin is the industry standard for smoke damage. I don't mean to bash you at all, but that comment and your comment saying Sherwin Williams is junk and Behr is better is just lack of experience. I have never had Sherwin Williams sag and run like Behr and I have used Sherwin Williams off and on professionally for 15 years.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not a painter but I've used a lot of Behr & it just plain sucks
I've done a lot of painting between this house, my last house & wife's condo
Behr just runs/sags & does not cover as good as other paints I have used. I'm at the point of not buying Behr ever again. But they are offering to compensate me for the paint I've used & offering to allow me to try their new paint "for free"

So if they follow thru on their offer I will try their new paint


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## Schramm (Jun 7, 2009)

WOW, I know Behr is not top shelf but I have used it and all this talk over runs and sags makes me wonder how you are applying it. I have used the Cinnabar color for leather tops since the paint first came to the market mostly because I like the color and I have never had an issue with it running or sagging. All paints are definatly not equal but for low cost to medium cost paint it is not bad. I am a big fan of Sherwin Williams but it is not the only paint on the market. Either try a shorter nap, change the tip you are spraying with or something as it really should not be running or sagging unless you are applying it incorrectly.


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## lsc (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm a typical do-it-yourself-er and usedBehr's new paint w/ primer (Premium plus Ultra) and it did an excellent job in my kitchen.

Being a total amateur, I taped everything off and used 2 coats of paint.

The prep included dusting off the cob webs and doing a little spackle action.

Maybe Sherwin Williams is better and so is Benjamin Moore but for $30/gallon I think the Behr with primer is just the ticket for us avg joes.

I'm looking at the kitchen now and I couldn't be more pleased.

Also, using a purdy brush and rollers will save you a lot of aggravation. It just works well compared to the cheap crapo brush and even worse roller naps. On to the hallways!!!


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## noisewater (Jan 5, 2010)

*Help*

Ok so heres the deal. Behr premium plus ultra with built in primer, on walls in a newer mobile. They are a paper coverd drywall material. I was going to go to an actual paint store and get paint but i was at home depot and thought well they havent failed me yet. I explained the situation, and what i was trying to paint and they suggested paint with built in primer so i didnt have to prime. Knowing how integral wall prep and primer is i trusted this advice. The paint applied well and covered fine, however if i so much as nic the wall it scratches off right down to the paper. Rubbing and wipping seems fine and there are no paint peels. What should i do should i sand the crap off and start again with a primer. Other than the dust sanding would create i am sure it would come off without protest. Just not sure where to go from here, its in my sons bedroom and i know its going to be scratched and such. It is eggshell finish so i dont know if thats the actuall problem or if its the primer issue, and if it is the primer issue, why do the bastards sell it as not needing primer? when its just really thick paint! garr! please help! thanks!


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## Kevin M. (Nov 26, 2009)

noisewater said:


> Ok so heres the deal. Behr premium plus ultra with built in primer, on walls in a newer mobile. They are a paper coverd drywall material. I was going to go to an actual paint store and get paint but i was at home depot and thought well they havent failed me yet. I explained the situation, and what i was trying to paint and they suggested paint with built in primer so i didnt have to prime. Knowing how integral wall prep and primer is i trusted this advice. The paint applied well and covered fine, however if i so much as nic the wall it scratches off right down to the paper. Rubbing and wipping seems fine and there are no paint peels. What should i do should i sand the crap off and start again with a primer. Other than the dust sanding would create i am sure it would come off without protest. Just not sure where to go from here, its in my sons bedroom and i know its going to be scratched and such. It is eggshell finish so i dont know if thats the actuall problem or if its the primer issue, and if it is the primer issue, why do the bastards sell it as not needing primer? when its just really thick paint! garr! please help! thanks!


Unfortunately, you were a victim of a corporate advertising sham on a marginal product. If you check around, what other paint manufacturers offer primer and finish coat in one? Primer and paint are different in chemical composition. To combine them is sketchy at best.

You may be able to get a refund from Homie Depot. In the mean time, it is what it is. Next time you paint, search out information which is relevant and time tested, as opposed to some marketing sham from a corporation who has a mandate of bottom line with little or no concern for the consumer.

Kevin


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## J.Applehouse (Dec 29, 2009)

*Paint vs. Brush*

I have found that the Behr paint is just not consistently the same quality. I own my own house and a rental and the handyman for about the whole family. I have found the paint is thin one day and not the other. Has anybody else found this? I have also found it is not just the paint, it really comes down to the brush and roll. The cheap brush makes you work harder. I am not lazy, but I’ll spend a few extra bucks to get out of more work.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Kevin M. said:


> Unfortunately, you were a victim of a corporate advertising sham on a marginal product. If you check around, what other paint manufacturers offer primer and finish coat in one? Primer and paint are different in chemical composition. To combine them is sketchy at best.
> 
> You may be able to get a refund from Homie Depot. In the mean time, it is what it is. Next time you paint, search out information which is relevant and time tested, as opposed to some marketing sham from a corporation who has a mandate of bottom line with little or no concern for the consumer.
> 
> Kevin


You got it!:thumbsup:


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## Neely2005 (Apr 27, 2010)

user3209 said:


> My God there are so many things wrong with this where do I start.
> 
> First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr but Benjamin Moore is a good product.





DangerMouse said:


> how much did they pay you to come here and post this ridiculous crap?
> 
> DM





ratherbefishin' said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: Keep smokin' that stuff, cr8f....it's obviously doing ya lots of good.....:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


This is interesting because before I bought my paint I checked Consumer Reports and they had rated Behr Paint (from Home Depot) as the best paint on the market.

Benjamin Moore was middle of the pack.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

*sigh* This has all been covered here a thousand times..... Please use the search feature.

DM


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

DangerMouse said:


> *sigh* This has all been covered here a thousand times..... Please use the search feature.
> 
> DM


And quit believing everything you read, especially CR paint reviews:yes:


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## davidmunger (May 6, 2010)

I want to thank everyone for their comments on this thread. I was prepared to purchase Behr Ultra premium for the exterior of my home. I am definitely re-thinking this and will go with S-W since that's always what I've used in the past. I almost got caught up in the slick advertising by Behr. My advice: stick with what you've had good luck with.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

If we helped just ONE person make the right decision......

DM


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

DangerMouse said:


> If we helped just ONE person make the right decision......
> 
> DM


 :yes::thumbsup:


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## Swanson52 (May 9, 2010)

DangerMouse said:


> If we helped just ONE person make the right decision......
> 
> DM


After exhaustive (and I really mean that, this has been the single hardest home remodeling decision I have ever made) research that included extensive time spent on this site, I will have to say I'm one that may have made the right decision.

My wife and I just purchased a lipstick fixer-upper (paint, flooring), and I agonized over paint for the better part of a week. We finally settled on Zinsser Bullseye 1-2-3 for the whole house, and BM Aura for the main floor. We went less expensive with the kids' rooms and used BM Ben, and chose Aura Bath and Spa for the bathroom. 

We decided this isn't something we want to do twice, and we are really looking for a quality finish from the paint. I'll certainly report back with how it works, and how I feel about the value for the money I spent.

I have a feeling that paint is like tattoos...cheap ain't good and good ain't cheap.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I have a feeling that paint is like tattoos...cheap ain't good and good ain't cheap. :thumbsup:

You get what you pay for.

I try to relate to customers that your home is your HOME, it is the biggest investment( at least it used to be an investment) that you will ever make.Why cheap out at what you have to look at ALL the time?:wink:


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## J.Applehouse (Dec 29, 2009)

*Last Summers Behr Paint*

Every summer one of my relatives asks me to paint. Last year my Aunt asked if I would paint my grandfathers house (he is 93yrs), I said sure, my grandmother picked a light pink. I recommended Dunns or anything but HomeDepot paint for the outside. They insisted that the better price of Behr paint. The house look really looked great after I finished, and admit I was wrong.

Yesterday my Aunt called me over to look at the house again, the carport still a good as last summer. The rest of the house looked like crap. The south wall faded to white, except under the windows and behind the bushes. The East wall you could not even tell the difference between the white trim and the pink wall. I never liked the color pink on a house, but it is not my house.

The house is in phoenix, Az where the sun is BRUTAL, but one year?

Very unhappy.:furious:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Again, you get what you pay for


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Might be better to use the three bottles on the second shelf! LOL

DM


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## Mister Sonny (May 16, 2010)

OK, personal experience here. So your mileage may vary.

The wife and I had two rooms to paint quickly recently. We decided to tackle one at a time. 

First room, our living room, had a white semi-gloss finish on the walls. I had earlier painted out kitchen wainscoting which had the same paint on it. To get the paint to adhere well all I needed was a good scrubbing with TSP, then rinse. (so that's the thread topic covered...) We used a Behr paint in the living room. We decided to try the "paint and primer in one", in a word? Garbage. We ended up going and getting a second gallon of just straight up paint and doing a second coat anyways.

Second room was our bedroom, satin finish paint, also white (off white in this case). We went to Lowe's and picked up the basic Valspar paint , then added a silica sand for a sandstone finish and it went on like butter and done in one coat. (also did a scrub with TSP and rinse before painting.) Note that the sand additive makes the paint thicker which probably added to the one coat factor.


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## Jason34 (Aug 15, 2010)

Maybe I should chime in with my own personal experience. I am a DIY painter. When I painted my house 15 months ago, I had to repaint the entire house due to the past owners being heavy smokers. I was able to repaint all the walls without needing primer but I had to re-prime all the ceilings as the nicotine would just come off on the rollers. Anyways, the paint I had used was Easy Living by Sears which my parents have used in their house and I personally really like that paint. I never had any problems with their paint and neither had my parents. Anyways, I am currently finishing my basement and am the point where I can begin painting. With the way I have everything planned out, I have 3 support columns which I boxed in and will be painted a brown color. All the walls will be a "poop" green color LOL. I knew I had to first prime the walls since its the first paint on drywall but a buddy of mine told me to try Berh's premium ultra (the primer and paint in one). I wasnt too sure about trying this stuff because primer and paint are 2 different things so I decided to get 1 gallon of that paint in the brown color for my columns (I needed 4 gallons for my walls) so I wouldnt waste that much money. I scrubbed down all the walls, columns, everything and dried it with a cloth. I rolled on the behr paint and I would have to say it went on very well. It dried nice and looked "ok" for my liking UNTIL a few days later when I took notice a section maybe the size of a quarter was lifting. I rubbed my finger over it and it just peeled right off. The entire paint on the columns I am easily removing in huge sheets. As for the walls, I used kilz2 (which I had no problem with) and Easy Living brand paint and those both went on perfectly fine. Once I have the bad paint removed, I am going to reclean the columns and prime this time. But what I want to know is... once I have actual primer on the columns, can I just use the behr paint again and put it on just as a paint? I was thinking of taking it back and getting easy living paint in that color, but I dont want to deal with the BS of doing that.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Well you have seen what thier paint & primer in one does for primer.


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## Jason34 (Aug 15, 2010)

Yes but will this stuff stick to the primer or fail like it did for me before?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Jasons34 said:


> Maybe I should chime in with my own personal experience. I am a DIY painter. When I painted my house 15 months ago, I had to repaint the entire house due to the past owners being heavy smokers. I was able to repaint all the walls without needing primer but I had to re-prime all the ceilings as the nicotine would just come off on the rollers. Anyways, the paint I had used was Easy Living by Sears which my parents have used in their house and I personally really like that paint. I never had any problems with their paint and neither had my parents. Anyways, I am currently finishing my basement and am the point where I can begin painting. With the way I have everything planned out, I have 3 support columns which I boxed in and will be painted a brown color. All the walls will be a "poop" green color LOL. I knew I had to first prime the walls since its the first paint on drywall but a buddy of mine told me to try Berh's premium ultra (the primer and paint in one). I wasnt too sure about trying this stuff because primer and paint are 2 different things so I decided to get 1 gallon of that paint in the brown color for my columns (I needed 4 gallons for my walls) so I wouldnt waste that much money. I scrubbed down all the walls, columns, everything and dried it with a cloth. I rolled on the behr paint and I would have to say it went on very well. It dried nice and looked "ok" for my liking UNTIL a few days later when I took notice a section maybe the size of a quarter was lifting. I rubbed my finger over it and it just peeled right off. The entire paint on the columns I am easily removing in huge sheets. As for the walls, I used kilz2 (which I had no problem with) and Easy Living brand paint and those both went on perfectly fine. Once I have the bad paint removed, I am going to reclean the columns and prime this time. But what I want to know is... once I have actual primer on the columns, can I just use the behr paint again and put it on just as a paint? I was thinking of taking it back and getting easy living paint in that color, but I dont want to deal with the BS of doing that.


 
As posted, you see what the supposed primer and paint did, why take another chance? prime with the kilz and paint with real paint.


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