# GE main panel neutral bar full -- options?



## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm adding a subpanel for a basement finish and it looks like I have insufficient room in the main panel's neutral bar to connect the neutral for the subpanel.

Here is the main panel with the subpanel feeder entering from the top. The unconnected wire with the white stripe is the one I'm having trouble with.









Neutral bar detail:










The main panel is a GE TX2415 RH originally installed in 1979.

So, does anyone know if there is a larger neutral bar I could use in the main panel, or an "expansion" neutral bar?

--

I do (possibly) have another option, but it would involve rerouting the subpanel feeder, which is not my idea of fun (it's a 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 Al SER).
The house also has a separate 150 amp service for an electric furnace that has long since been removed. Perhaps I could replace the existing 150A furnace breaker (picture below) with a 100A, and connect the here instead? It looks like I'd need a GE TQD22100 breaker (which are rather pricey and may not be manufactured any more) and also a different neutral lug to connect the incoming (yellow) neutral and earth ground to the subpanel feeder's neutral and ground.









Thoughts?

- Bill


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The proper thing to do is to add a grounding bar and move all the copper grounding conductors to the new bar. As it is now the grounding conductors are not properly terminated. That lug is for one conductor, not many.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Or even better why not just replace that outdated existing panel with a new panel big enough to handle everything,then you wont need a sub panel?


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

Would be much easier to replace the panel with separate neutral and ground bar so you can make it neater.

Looks to me like it should be treated like a sub panel anyways.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

It should be treated as a subpanel because it is a subpanel.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

You could add a ground bar as previously noted, but I would strongly suggest you replace that old spilt bus panel with a new one.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

k_buz said:


> It should be treated as a subpanel because it is a subpanel.


 If I read it right that outside disconnect in the picture is for a seperate service,and is not feeding that GE panel.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

you appear to be right


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

*Clarification...*

Thanks for the suggestions.

A clarification --

The panel I called the "main" panel I guess technically is a split-bus subpanel. There are two main breakers in a pedestal with the meter at the corner of the property, each 150 amp. One supplies the split-bus panel and the other supplies the old electric furnace's panel (both attached to the house, but separately supplied from the meter).

The subpanel I'm adding (whose neutral I'm having trouble connecting) is inside the house, and would be supplied from either the split-bus panel (or its replacement) or the old furnace panel.

It sounds like the *best* option is a panel replacement, but I was looking to avoid that in case some of the new, expensive code requirements (like AFCIs) would apply.

I thought the ground wire connections looked strange (all under one lug), but the builders did it like that. Perhaps that was normal 33 years ago? Or they were just lazy.

- Bill


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

AFCI's are not required to be installed on a panel change. You could double check with the AHJ, but I'm fairly certain you won't be required to do so.

So, that split buss panel is a subpanel? Then those neutrals and grounds need to be separated.


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

So, that split buss panel is a subpanel? Then those neutrals and grounds need to be separated.[/quote]

I may be mangling my terminology. I assumed "subpanel" to mean a panel without a main disconnect (or can the 2-pole breakers in the top section of a split-bus panel collectively be considered the "disconnect?"). 

This panel is the main electrical point of entry for the house, though, and is connected to the grounding rod.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

If there is a main breaker/disconnect that turns off this panel somewhere other than in this panel, it is a subpanel.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

The split bus panel has the wire from the ground rods?


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

k_buz said:


> The split bus panel has the wire from the ground rods?


Yes -- the ground rod is connected to the split bus panel and also to the electric furnace disconnect panel.









- Bill


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Ground rods need to be connected at the main service, that being on the line side of the main disconnect. That being said, there may be some local codes that would come into play whether it be from your community, or the POCO.

Today's code would require you to have rods at both the main service location, and at the house due to the feeders running underground.

Do you know that the split buss panel goes specifically to ground rods, or are you assuming it goes to ground rods? The reason I ask, is that your house's water system should be bonded to those panels. You might be seeing the "water ground" and are assuming the wire goes to ground rods and I do believe the panel and disco at the house should be bonded together (without searching my code book).


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

The issue I see is that he has only a 3 wire connection from the first disconnect at the pedestal to that split bus panel. The AHJ could/should requre that be upgraded to a 4 wire connection.

And that 4 wire needs to be 3 insulated conductors plus a ground wire or conduit. Even if the existing is in conduit~the neutral is not insulated..


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Unless that panel has a four wire feed or a metallic conduit between the breaker and the panel, you can not simply add a grounding buss connects to ground rods to seperate the grounding conductors from the neutrals. The grounding electrode system must be connected to the grounded conductor at the first disconnect.


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Do you know that the split buss panel goes specifically to ground rods, or are you assuming it goes to ground rods? The reason I ask, is that your house's water system should be bonded to those panels. You might be seeing the "water ground" and are assuming the wire goes to ground rods and I do believe the panel and disco at the house should be bonded together (without searching my code book).


In the split bus panel, there are solid, uninsulated (8 ga?) wires connected to the neutral bar (you can barely see them on the bottom layer in the photo) that connect to the ground rod, to the water line near where it enters the house, and to the electric furnace disconnect. There is also a bond between the neutral bar and the split bus panel enclosure. There are only 3 (insulated) underground feeders. (Hopefully this wouldn't have to be changed -- the underground lines go under a concrete patio, a flagstone patio, and mature landscaping. Yikes!)

- Bill


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

wwh said:


> In the split bus panel, there are solid, uninsulated (8 ga?) wires connected to the neutral bar (you can barely see them on the bottom layer in the photo) that connect to the ground rod, to the water line near where it enters the house, and to the electric furnace disconnect. There is also a bond between the neutral bar and the split bus panel enclosure. There are only 3 (insulated) underground feeders. (Hopefully this wouldn't have to be changed -- the underground lines go under a concrete patio, a flagstone patio, and mature landscaping. Yikes!)
> 
> - Bill


 That installation may have been compliant depending upon which code cycle was in effect at the time.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

brric said:


> That installation may have been compliant depending upon which code cycle was in effect at the time.


But as part of the permit / inspection process most AHJ's will not allow a panel change and continue using the 3 wire feeder.

I would ask your AHJ before you go any further. 

Is the existing feeder in conduit or direct bury cable?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

rjniles said:


> But as part of the permit / inspection process most AHJ's will not allow a panel change and continue using the 3 wire feeder.


I have never had an inspector ding me for using the metal raceway as the ground for a subpanel (RMC for underground/EMT for above ground). However, the rules changed not too long ago (2008 code cycle I think) where when feeding a subpanel by an underground, ground rod(s) are now required for the subpanel. Being that current codes require minimum #6 for the GEC, and he is saying he has a #8, he will probably be required to replace the GEC to current requirements. As long as the feeder(s) from the main service to the house are wired in unbroken rigid conduit, it is unlikely the AHJ will require any modification to the feeder.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

k_buz said:


> I have never had an inspector ding me for using the metal raceway as the ground for a subpanel (RMC for underground/EMT for above ground). However, the rules changed not too long ago (2008 code cycle I think) where when feeding a subpanel by an underground, ground rod(s) are now required for the subpanel. Being that current codes require minimum #6 for the GEC, and he is saying he has a #8, he will probably be required to replace the GEC to current requirements. As long as the feeder(s) from the main service to the house are wired in unbroken rigid conduit, it is unlikely the AHJ will require any modification to the feeder.


The problem I see is the unisulated conductor that will be used as the neutral. It is directly in contact with the conduit (ground).


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

rjniles said:


> Is the existing feeder in conduit or direct bury cable?


I think the feeder is direct bury cable. The conduit protecting it between the ground and the panel is PVC.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

wwh said:


> I think the feeder is direct bury cable. The conduit protecting it between the ground and the panel is PVC.


 Well there goes the mechanical ground idea with the rigid pipe


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

I would ask the AHJ if they will approve a panel replacement using a grandfathered 3 wire feeder. If they yes~get in writting.
If they say no:

Live with what you have.
Dig up the yard.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

What size is the conduit going to both of those panels and what size wire is there now? Maybe there is a possibility of pulling that wire and repelling a four wire feed.


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## wwh (Mar 31, 2012)

rrolleston said:


> What size is the conduit going to both of those panels and what size wire is there now? Maybe there is a possibility of pulling that wire and repelling a four wire feed.


The conduit coming out of the ground is 2", and the wires are each 2/0. Is such a cable typically buried directly (3 separate wires), or would it be in a jacket like SE / SER?

- Bill


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