# Product Hydro Spot Roof system



## MJOC (Jan 10, 2013)

Does anyone know anyone in the New York/Long Island area that uses this cool roof system and knows the proper application?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Can you elaborate please? Never mind. You apparently meant Hydro-Stop, not Hydro-Spot.

Looks like an elastomeric coating masquerading as a roof system. This has been tried ad-nauseum.

If you have an old wet low slope roof, forget about it, it wont work. 

Its a coating, not a roof. Regardless of their sales pitch.


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

*HydroStop / Premium Coat Roofing System?*

So if you are not a fan of HydroStop, what do you recommend if one wants a +50 year life from initial install + maintenance?

Do you have direct experience with HydroStop / Premium Coat when it's installed over a properly cleaned-repaired-prepared flat concrete deck, tapered isoboard, then only HydroStop per manufacturers specs?

Anyone have a HydroStop - Premium Coat roof that is over 20 years old? 30? Maximum?

Thanks in advance;
PDE


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

PDE said:


> So if you are not a fan of HydroStop, what do you recommend if one wants a +50 year life from initial install + maintenance?
> 
> Do you have direct experience with HydroStop / Premium Coat when it's installed over a properly cleaned-repaired-prepared flat concrete deck, tapered isoboard, then only HydroStop per manufacturers specs?
> 
> ...


I could be wrong, but since I have never heard of Hydro-stop, it must be relatively new, therefore nobody is going to have a hydro-stop roof that is over 20 years old. Once again, you are talking about a coating, not a roof system, A roof "System" by definition includes everything from the structural roof deck uo ie Thermal Insulation, coverboard, and roof membrane, which can be one of many many types, Single Ply, Built up, Modified Bitumen. You have subsets of all, mechanically fastened, fully adhered, ballasted. 

A membrane applied as a liquid is a coating, not a roof system. The only low slope roof system I ever encountered that was over 40 years old was a 5 ply coal tar pitch roof applied directly onto a massive concrete deck which acted as a heat sink. It was on a staging facility on a river in New Jersey where Sherman tanks were loaded on transport ships to be sent to Europe during WW2. The floors of that facility were 8 foot thick reinforced concrete. The coping stoned were 2 x 2 foot limestone over 20 oz. copper, most of which had been stolen. When you start talking 50 year life span you are usually talking steep roofs, lead (which they use on Cathedrals) Good quality Slate, (Peach Bottom, Buckingham) Copper, and the like.

Again, a liquid is a paint, period. Good Luck.


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

*HydroStop / Premium Coat Roofing System?*



jagans said:


> I could be wrong, but since I have never heard of Hydro-stop, it must be relatively new, therefore nobody is going to have a hydro-stop roof that is over 20 years old. Once again, you are talking about a coating, not a roof system, A roof "System" by definition includes everything from the structural roof deck uo ie Thermal Insulation, coverboard, and roof membrane, which can be one of many many types, Single Ply, Built up, Modified Bitumen. You have subsets of all, mechanically fastened, fully adhered, ballasted.
> 
> A membrane applied as a liquid is a coating, not a roof system. The only low slope roof system I ever encountered that was over 40 years old was a 5 ply coal tar pitch roof applied directly onto a massive concrete deck which acted as a heat sink. It was on a staging facility on a river in New Jersey where Sherman tanks were loaded on transport ships to be sent to Europe during WW2. The floors of that facility were 8 foot thick reinforced concrete. The coping stoned were 2 x 2 foot limestone over 20 oz. copper, most of which had been stolen. When you start talking 50 year life span you are usually talking steep roofs, lead (which they use on Cathedrals) Good quality Slate, (Peach Bottom, Buckingham) Copper, and the like.
> 
> Again, a liquid is a paint, period. Good Luck.


If you haven't heard of HydroStop - have you heard of GAF that just bought Quest Construction Products? QCP bought HydroStop in 2007, so it's been around a while.

Ok, given that this is sales material from Quest, attached is a brochure with the following:
http://www.quest-cp.com/premiumcoat-system
Page 6 Quotes:
One Roof For Life
* The only roof that lasts as long as the building
* Ownership costs much less than comparable roof systems

LIFESPAN:
Roof System Life Expectancy (Data provided by National Roofing Foundation, from study of low-sloped roofs)
Roofing System -- Life Expectancy -- Roofing Systems installed
--------------------- (in years) ------- over 40 year life
EPDM Ballasted --- 13 ------------------ 3.08
BUR --------------- 16 ------------------ 2.5
Modified Bitumen - 21 ------------------ 1.9
PVC ---------------- 13 ------------------ 3.08
TPO ---------------- 13 ------------------ 3.08
Fluid-Applied ----- Infinite -------------- 1

Page 7: EXTENDS ROOF LIFESPAN According to the National Roofing Foundation, the average service life of a low-sloped roof is 17 years. With proper maintenance, a fluid-applied roof system can last the LIFE OF THE BUILDING.

Page 7 continued: Along with recommended annual cleaning, once every ten years (on average) a maintenance layer of the fluid-applied roof system is applied.

Page 11: Quest offers fabric-reinforced acrylic elastomer systems such as PremiumCoat. These Class 1, FM 4470 approved roofing systems function both as stand-alone roof systems and as recover systems... The are internally plasticized adn meet ASTM D-6083 for items sch as flexibility, mechanical properties, adhesion, etc.

Not trying to promote this company - product, just trying to find others with experience, either good or bad, to help decide if we should install this roofing system. Again, we plan to tear off the old TPO and ISO, inspect - repair the desk, then install tapered ISO for insulation and provide some slope, followed by roof system as recommended by manufacturer - general contractor hired to professionally install.


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

To download the brochure quoted, click on this link:
http://www.quest-cp.com/premiumcoat-system

Then click on Product Information - Applications & Literature; 
then on Right side is Fluid Applied Roofing Systems Brochure.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Holy smokes. You flushed out jagans.


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

LOL -- Don't mean to intentionally 'flush out' anyone; especially a 'Roof Master' that's doing me a favor by replying. 

Just trying to sort out the BS and opinions from verifiable facts!

Am not a roof expert, but am an engineer willing to use the internet to dig, thus far it seems this is the best practical system. Yes, have also seen video's of a fiberglass system that with sufficient UV protection is reported to last +50 years. Also grant that most long life systems are either hand clad copper on steep roofs with no traffic and limited penetrations, or very old slate roofs with proper felt - installation that's very costly to replicate today. FiberTite also advertises that 99% of their installed roofs are still in service today, but my main concern is penetrations - flashings where am told +75% of roof leaks start! 

Per some roofing expert - the only TRUE verification of a roof that will last +50 years, is to find those roofs TODAY, then try to duplicate if they haven't changed the formula, installation, etc! :devil3: Again, the devil is in the details - not the advertisements.

Thanks for all replies, even when don't agree...
PDE (Petroleum Drilling Engineer)


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

This is a loaded question. 

By 50 year roof are we talking the material lasting 50 years or 50 years with out leaks? 50 years with out leaks will never happen, even on most steep slope roofs.

As mentioned coal tar pitch would be the closest to lasting that long. A 90 mil EPDM with a coating every 5-10 years I think would last that long. We recently recoated a 3 ply hot roof with a smooth cap sheet, it's on a small back porch, two valleys dump on to it original to the house I think he said somewhere around 35-40 years. Everything looked really good, again he coated it every 5 years like clock work and had someone looking over it and cleaning up leaves ect 2 times a year.

Coatings have their place, and when installed over a new traditional roof system they can extend the life of that roof system. 

As far as GAF goes, that's who's coatings we mainly install, the Top Coat line, GAF has a tendency to buy out their competition. Not that their is anything wrong with that.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

WHat the hell is the National Roofing Foundation?

The National Roofing Contractors Association (NRCA) is the go to sourse for facts regarding roofing. The Roof Consultants Institute (RCI) and the SHeet Metal and Air Conditioning National Association SMACNA. are also very good sources. 

Let me try this again. A roof waterproofing membrane is a matrix which consists of one or more reinforing layers and at least two layers of waterproofing material. If a roof system fails, and you paint a waterproofing material onto the failed roof, the failure usually telegraphs through the overlay (Paint) Of course I have heard of GAF There was a shingle plant in the town right next to the town I grew up in. I have toured the plant in Baltimore also. Name dropping does not change the fact that a roof coating is not a roof system.

If you paint your house does that mean you have a new house? 



PDE said:


> If you haven't heard of HydroStop - have you heard of GAF that just bought Quest Construction Products? QCP bought HydroStop in 2007, so it's been around a while.
> 
> Ok, given that this is sales material from Quest, attached is a brochure with the following:
> http://www.quest-cp.com/premiumcoat-system
> ...


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

Thanks for the reply. Do YOU have any direct experience with HydroStop - Premium Coat?

50 Years - more of a personal goal, real one is +100 years for the effective roof life, but know this would be a stretch goal!  Yes, am serious since have training as a Technical Limit Performance Engineer. What is technically possible with today's technology - products - installation - knowledge - experience!

Per the Miami-Dade Country (NOA) Notification of Acceptance for use document (too large to attach), page 3:
Evidence Submitted:
Test Agency - Applied Research Laboratories 
Test Identifier 29295
Description ASTM D 6083
Date 02/16/95

This seems to indicate that the product, or some version of same, was tested +20 years ago. Therefore trying to find Roofing Experts that have direct experience with the product over a long period of time. The company says after initial installation, with proper care and maintenance, including recoating with PremiumCoat every 7 to 10 years, that the warranty can be extended 10 years each time - for an INFINITE amount of time. Yes, realize this does not mean Leak-Free, but if just have to potentially repair small areas with Foundation Coat + membrane + Foundation Coat, then recoat or add another layer of Premium Coat paint; this in my mind would be a effective roofing system lasting over 50 years.

Would this be more effective and cost less than the above standard Coal Tar Pitch roof system, recoated every 5 years? Economics of the QCP Brochure seem to indicate Maintenance Cost (only product) of roughly 75 cents / square foot every 10 years! Over 40 years total install + maintenance cost of less than $7/square foot. Compared to BUR, life expectancy of 16 years each, so 2.5 roofs for 40 years; total cost of ?
Brouchure: QCPwhy-fluid-applied-roofing_sm.pdf

The only doc can attach is QCP - Preventative Maintenance for PremiumCoat System. Bottom Bullet Point quoted:
* Quest Construction Products may notify the building owner during the final year of the warranty so the roof can be inspected and preparations can be made for the re-coat process necessary for warranty renewal.

Seems to me that if the Warranty can be extended multiple times, there is a chance the roof will be relatively leak free with proper care and maintenance. Yes, it's work, but per the example above might be possible to achieve a +50 year roof effective life!

Thanks again for the reply as am waiting for Technical Sales Rep to return my inquiries! PDE:vs_cool:


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

Jagans reply includes: "Let me try this again. A roof waterproofing membrane is a matrix which consists of one or more reinforing layers and at least two layers of waterproofing material. If a roof system fails, and you paint a waterproofing material onto the failed roof, the failure usually telegraphs through the overlay (Paint)".

Ok, yes, fully AGREE! Roof System includes multiple components.

Why does Jagan NOT agree that QCP - GAF is a FULL ROOFING SYSTEM? Per the company and above QCP has:
*Primer to go down on almost any base - new construction concrete or old roof systems.
* Water proof comprised of a base coat of liquid applied HydroStop Foundation Coat PLUS a polyester membrane PLUS a top layer of HydroStop Foundation Coat. Just had a fairly long and detailed conversation with the GAF Area Technical Rep.
* Multiple COATS of the PremiumCoat - or paint pe Jagans. This, as explained by the GAF Area Technical Rep is a Sacrifical or Barrier that protects the Foundation Coat + Membrane that provides the true water proofing. Hence over the years, the top coat that is exposed to the environment wears away and roughly every 7 to 10 years is cleaned and reapplied! 

Yes, like repainting a house, one does NOT get a new house each time it's painted! Agree. BUT as long as the level of protection is fully updated - whats the difference? Not seeking a new building each 10 years, simply seeking to KEEP an effective building envelope!

Seems to me that GAF - QCP has a full roofing system, with multiple components. Guess am not clearly explaining as Jagans is focused ONLY on the coating of Premium Coat. So exactly how does one get a title of 'Roof Master' on here? Does this mean one has simply made x number of posts - or is some level of skill and expertise required?

http://www.quest-cp.com/premiumcoat-system
Is this NOT a Roofing SYSTEM? Maybe am very, very slow and dense, but sure looks like a multi component system to me... But again, am simply a 'newbie' on here! 
PDE


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

From Jagans Profile:
About jagans "BiographyProficient in Carpentry, Plumbing, Electrical, HVAC, Profesional Registered Roof consultant for 25yr"Humm... Professional is misspelled and maybe it's time that an old dog learns new tricks?

Can anyone advise of another Roofing System that advertised "Roof for the life of the building" with the backing - reputation similar to GAF? Am very interested if anyone can, as we are about to spend +$1/4 million US on a new one and want it to be the best on the market for our building and climate!

Thanks in advance;
PDE


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

PDE said:


> Jagans reply includes: "Let me try this again. A roof waterproofing membrane is a matrix which consists of one or more reinforing layers and at least two layers of waterproofing material. If a roof system fails, and you paint a waterproofing material onto the failed roof, the failure usually telegraphs through the overlay (Paint)".
> 
> Ok, yes, fully AGREE! Roof System includes multiple components.
> 
> ...



This is fairly simple: while you are including a primer, base coat, rienforcing layer and top coat, you are (I assume) spraying or rolling this conglomeration onto a failed surface. If you completely remove the existing failed roof system down to a monolitic deck, such as structural concrete, then yes, you have a good chance of success. there are cases when you can recover an existing roof, but that is a very involved subject and requires a lot of roofing knowledge. You also have to consider where you want the dew point to fall in your roofing system, as installing the membrane directly to a structural deck would in effect give you a vapor retarder, unless you were to go with an inverted roof system.

Low slope roofing is very involved, my friend, and there have been hundreds, and maybe thousands of "This roof does it all" acclimations by every single manufacturer out there. Get yourself a copy of the warranty, and go right to the small, usually light gray type on the back of the warranty. You will usually find more loopholes that that found in Swiss Cheese, and most warranties are not what we call Full System Warranties. I like to call them Kodak Film Warranties, which is: "If this film fails we will give you a new roll of film" They do not pay for your trip back to Africa and the Safari on which you captured that great image of Elephants frolicking in the mud. 

Most of roofing is common sense, except that which lies beyond simple reason, like chemical incompatibility. Most people do not put a new roof on preventatively, in other words, most people are reacting to leaks, and most people do not react until the leaks get so bad that the roof in question is toast, and beyond repair.

You do not want to adhere a new roof system, coating etc. etc. directly to a failed roof system, and you most definitely do not want to leave trapped water in an existing roof system, and go over it. I do not even know what kind of roof you have but if you have the right type, You may be able to do a non destructive survey and determine the extent of moisture intrusion into your existing roof system. Unfortunately the price of Infrared cameras has come down so much that any wing nut can buy one, and a camera in the hads of someone with little to no knowledge regarding low slope roofing is not only worthless, but dangerous, because bad info is worse than no info. To give you an idea, our first camera cost $33,000 dollars. Obviously that took a commitment to buy.

Do not buy the bull**** pedaled by salesmen. If you can, get yourself a copy of the NRCA Roofing and Waterproofing Manual and get smart. There is an awful lot of sage advice in there. Also pick up the NRCA HARK (Handbook of Accepted Roofing Knowledge)


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

*Jagans - thanks for multiple replies*

Jagans - reposting from my post above:
"Not trying to promote this company - product, just trying to find others with experience, either good or bad, to help decide if we should install this roofing system. Again, we plan to tear off the old TPO and ISO, inspect - repair the deck, then install tapered ISO for insulation and provide some slope, followed by roof system as recommended by manufacturer - general contractor hired to professionally install."

Fully agree and not focused on the Warranty offered - trying to focus on real solutions as we have to replace our currently roofing system. We hired a licensed Roof Inspector to do a Nuclear Survey on 5'x5' grids, and +85% of the results on this moisture survey were above spec. Therefore have been informed per local code - we HAVE to tear off and start over!

The condo has flat concrete structural deck with Post-Tension Cable system. It is 13 stories tall, and roughly 76' wide x 236' long; roughly 18,000 square feet.

Current plan, subject to revision:
We have hired a licensed professional engineer to do a building inspection of structure + electrical + roof + all mechanical systems + paving-foundation + sea wall + anything that we need to address for the next 12 years. We are required to pass a Structural and Electrical Recertification in April 2017. Therefore putting together a plan of what to do - when to do it and estimated costs between now and the 40 year recert due in 2017, and up to the 50 year recert required in 2027! This will ensure we don't have any deferred maintenance - overlooked projects that impact the building.

Back to the repairs as we have to replace the ROOF and do exterior repair/repainting of the entire building. Current Rough Plan:
Finalize 12 Year Reserve Study - Projects and Timeline
Tear OFF the entire current roofing system, down to building structural deck
Clean - inspect - repair as needed with plan not to see it for +100 years!
Install anchors for work over the side of the building, as needed
Install base waterproofing system OR LightWeight concrete / ISO board for TAPER of at least 1/8" per 12" up to 1/2" per 12" (optimal?) followed by waterproofing.
Paint with non-skid material
Complete other building repairs which will require work on/from the roof
Once ALL other repairs are finished and roof traffic back to minimal, THEN clean roof and install final coats of sealant per contractor and manufacturer recommends for a +20 year warranty.

Once all this is done, hire the Registered Professional Engineer AND someone from manufacturer to come do yearly inspections as needed to maintain the roof and to a lesser extend the roof warranty. One sheet of paper will do NOTHING to make the roof leak free. But incorporating contractor and Manufactures Best Practices into our 12 Year Building Management Plan should go a long way to remaining leak-free at the lowest overall total install + maintenance cost for the next +50 years! THIS is our goal, not having a limited warranty. We have one now from JP Stevens - DOW for a TPO that was installed 12 years ago, and if one has any real roofing experience, they can advise what this warranty is worth... 

Sorry for long post, but I DO understand it's the product - application - maintenance that makes a difference. So seeking input on HOW we can improve our plan detailed above. Thanks for your time and consideration!
PDE


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

@PDE

Other then trying to get the best roof for $250K what are you exactly trying to do?

The coating system you are talking about is fairly common. The main issue I am seeing is you want to go over an existing roof. Coating over a existing leaking roof, even if it is not leaking through the building is bad. The moisture that is present in the insulation, and roofing layers will work it's way up through this new coating and then it will fail. The other issue being there is very few coatings that can withstand ponding water.

How big is this roof that you are wanting to coat? What is the location? $250K really isn't a lot for a roof of any substantial size.

You need to look at real world life cycle costs. If you are recoating every 7-10 years, that adds up quickly. The stats you are giving for the life expectancy of a roof are off. 

A 60 mil fully adhered EPDM roof with 1/4" per foot taper and 6" seams can be had with a 20 year NDL (no dollar limit) warranty. A 90 Mil with a few different details can be had with 30 years. IIRC you can get a year material warranty with 90 Mil.

A 3 ply felt and mod bit cap sheet 20 years.

60 mil TPO and PVC 20 years.

80 mil TPO and PVC I believe can be had up to 25 years.

The big manufactures, Carlisle/Versico, Firestone/Genflex, Johns Manville, GAF all stand behind their warranties. They don't just throw these numbers out there, they pay testing companies a lot of money to ensure that they do not pay out very often.


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

NO - NOT correct: "The main issue I am seeing is you want to go over an existing roof".

I want to tear OFF the entire current roof system, down to the buildings structural deck! Inspect and repair Post-Tension Cables, cracks, etc as NEEDED to have a solid roof to start with!

Then want to properly spec - design - install a complete roofing system that will give us the longest life at the lowest cost! Threw out $250k as it's from one of the quotes obtained thus far, but not for the HydroStop system.

Am HERE trying to research and improve my understanding, not prove anything. Appreciate the help.

QUESTION: If this was YOUR building - you personally own and control 100%. WHAT would you do and at what cost to install? What recommended maintenance term and cost? $1,000 per year every year? $10,000 every 3rd year? Etc?

Would you keep it flat like they did last time?
Would you install Tapered ISO - if so at what angle - 1/8" per 12" or 1/2" per 12"?
Would you install light-weight concrete over the deck at some taper?
Would you make a giant copper dome over all the existing roof & piping?
Any options not yet discussed? (Have also been researching FiberTite, GAF TPO, BUR, GACO, Fiberglass, etc, etc).

Thanks in advance;
PDE


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

Cost: threw out $250k as per current quote we just got from licensed roofer. Our roof is slightly less than 18,000 square feet, flat but with two raised sections that will make it more difficult - costly to reroof. Not so concerned about the initial install cost. The MAIN concern is the BEST ROOF at the LOWEST total cost over the next 50 years! What's that for each system? What's the percent probability it will last 50 years WITH optimal care and maintenance? What's the chance for leaks during this time frame for each?

Have focused on HydroStop due to:
* Found this thread, that proceeded to hi-jack regarding this system!:vs_worry:

* It is fluid applied with a waterproofing membrane - which in my mind gives a much better chance of remaining leak-free around all penetrations. Yes, thick single membrane is great on level flat spots, but the videos - work to seal on corners - etc looks pretty challenging. Don't +75% of all leaks occur at penetrations?

* It was installed on a flat roof here in Miami, over a computer data center. Believe they would be very concerned about the potential for leaks in the future more than my owners and typical condo furnishings.

* It was installed on the roof of the Alamo

* It is currently being installed at Disney Land, etc, etc.

* Only one that I've found saying 'for life of the building' with proper care

* Installation is fairly simple. Compare step 2 for Gaco with all the tools, etc needed per videos! Two part epoxy, etc. The more complicated, am thinking the higher the chance something goes against the optimal plan.

PDE


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Well that's hard to say, I know what I would install on one of our buildings, the issue being is that it is expensive, I also know what works. I tend to be a little cheap at times and we have the people who can service them. Also not all roof systems are suited for all buildings. A lot of people refer to PVC being the best single ply material out there, and I would agree it is a very good material. It does a lot of things well and is very well suited for apartments, condos, schools, shopping centers, how ever I would not install it on a industrial type of building. Even with walk way pads installed it would become damaged pretty quickly.

I noticed you refereed to Miami Dade codes and that this was a condo. I think a fully adhered PVC would be very good for this area. You really can't go wrong with most of the PVC manufactures there is one I would stay far away from.

As far as insulation, 1/4" per foot is good. A 1/8" may not be enough depending on the building and 1/2" gets expensive quickly and insulation thickness may be to much. No to attach it, since you have post tension cables you can't mechanically attach it, so you would have to adhere it in Hot asphalt, or 2 part insulation adhesive. Either way is fine but I personally like hot asphalt.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

PDE said:


> From Jagans Profile:
> About jagans "BiographyProficient in Carpentry, Plumbing, Electrical, HVAC, Profesional Registered Roof consultant for 25yr"Humm... Professional is misspelled and maybe it's time that an old dog learns new tricks?
> 
> Can anyone advise of another Roofing System that advertised "Roof for the life of the building" with the backing - reputation similar to GAF? Am very interested if anyone can, as we are about to spend +$1/4 million US on a new one and want it to be the best on the market for our building and climate!
> ...


Sorry about the misspelling, I am usually pretty particular about that. Well I consider the day I do not learn something a sad day, so I am always open to learn new "Tricks". Unfortunately, most of the new tricks in roofing really are tricks LOLOL. There are some very good sources on here including 1985GT, and Eric fro WOW, so I would listen to what they have to say, as well as myself. I have EPDM roofs that I designed approaching 25 years but in the design I included a 12 inch cover strip over the field fabricated seams, because at the time I was in contact with Walter Rossiter who worked for NIST and his findings alerted me to the fact that EPDM fails due to T-Peel at the field fabricated seams. I have had good luck with multiply Built up roofs with an SBS cap sheet, EPDM, and with Thermoplastic membranes I have some fully adhered Sarnafil (PVC) roofs that are still performing that were installed in 1984. Fibertite (EIP) is also an excellent single ply and I have many of those that are quite old. It might interest you to know that the preferred roof in the middle east is white Sarnafil. I think that is what is on the KABA, if I got that spelling right. That's the box with the meteorite (Black Stone) that Muslims circle during their Haaj. 

The roofing system that you select is based on quite a few parameters. What is the building used for? How much Traffic will the roof see? What is the internal temperature and relative humidity of the building to be? How well does the roof drain? (This is very important, as a marginal roof with good drainage will often outlast a premium roof with poor drainage) 

If you are getting ready to spend that kind of cash for a new roof, why are you not seeking the services of a Registered Roof Consultant? No they are not all the same, but if you start with an RRC, you are way ahead of the game. 

I know of no roof system that will last for the life of the building and frankly that is just a really silly expectation by someone with a pipe dream. It sounds like somebody that has been burned and is asking the impossible. 

Like I said, I have been on 40 and 50 year old Coal Tar Pitch roofs where the membrane is still good, and the flashing's, which were AB20 (Asbestos) has oxidized so badly that all that was left was friable asbestos, because the asphalt used to coat them was completely oxidized and gone away. One of these was at the old Bethlehem Steel Plant in Baltimore.

The first thing you need to do is have an evaluation of what you have done by a competent individual, so you can make an informed decision. Just because somebody works for a roofing products manufacturer does not mean they know roofing. We once hired a guy that actually worked in an asphalt plant that I later found out did not know what the equiviscous temperature of asphalt was :surprise::surprise::surprise:


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## PDE (Nov 1, 2015)

*Reply to Jagans questions*

What is the building used for? ANSWER: Residential condo building of 13 floors.

How much Traffic will the roof see? ANSWER: hopefully minimal but we do have a cooling tower and two air handlers that our Building Engineer/Maintenance guy has to service - check. There are no individual air conditioners or condensers on the roof.

What is the internal temperature and relative humidity of the building to be? ANSWER: depends upon Miami, Florida area weather - season, but we keep the thermostat set constant at 72 degrees. Cooler on lower floors and slightly increasing temp going up to 13th floor - penthouse floor.

How well does the roof drain? (This is very important, as a marginal roof with good drainage will often outlast a premium roof with poor drainage) ANSWER: decent, but due to current flat roof - flat 1" ISOboard do have some small areas that will pond water. Unsure if they hold water for +48 hours per code. We PLAN to evaluate going from a flat roof to some taper either with ISO or light-weight concrete from 1/8" to 1/2" per foot. We WILL have to add something for insulation for code and economics.

If you are getting ready to spend that kind of cash for a new roof, why are you not seeking the services of a Registered Roof Consultant? No they are not all the same, but if you start with an RRC, you are way ahead of the game. Answer: I AM! Seeking personal info on here and in discussions with Mr. Rich Allen, etc.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmtrichallen
Per profile: "*President*

*Corporate Roof Advisors of Florida, LLC*

September 2015 – Present (3 months)Tampa Florida is closest to Dade City, FL.Corporate Roof Advisors is a Strategic Management and Financial Roofing Portfolio Asset Manager
Asset Planning Roofing Maintenance Consulting
Mr. Allen has 40+ years experience w/ Roofing, Waterproofing, Cladding, (EIFS & Stucco, Brick); and Sealants".

I know of no roof system that will last for the life of the building and frankly that is just a really silly expectation by someone with a pipe dream. It sounds like somebody that has been burned and is asking the impossible. ANSWER: Recognize this, but it's more realistic than my Technical Limit Approach: Target is a roof that costs $0 to install, $0 to maintain, and will lasts Forever! Seems this is the optimum for minimal cost and longest life. Who would not want such a roof IF it existed? :surprise: Now that we all agree THAT is impossible; tell me how close we can get to achieving this goal, and exactly what it will take - cost to achieve! We can then rank numerous options based on different criteria such as life, install cost, required maintenance, energy efficiency, etc, etc and any other KPI's (Key Performance Indicators) that will help direct us to the best answer for our unique set of challenges.

Current status:
We HAVE hired an Experienced - Licensed Registered Professional Engineer with +10 years of experience in the Miami area doing similar work. The Engineer has completed his initial inspection of the building - EVERY Condo in the building, all mechanical systems - etc. Now the Engineer is drafting up a 12 YEAR RESERVE REPORT - road map for the next 12 years - yes with all the dirty details in what system needs what - what - at what cost.

Once this is done, then we meet with the Condo Board - Engineer and discuss various options. Potentially including hiring a RRC to advise specifically on details for the design - bidding - installation - supervision of said removal of current roof, inspection - repair of current concrete deck, and THEN installation of new roof system from the concrete up as we determine. Yes, I can read up on various 400 page manuals, but will not learn what Mr. Allen has learned only doing this for +40 years! So am working to at least be aware of various systems, pros - cons, to know if being fed a line of marketing material, or a valid system!

Thanks for all the replies - comments - thoughts.
PDE


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

You are putting the cart in front of the horse. Like I said, you need an RCI registered roof consultant. It sounds like you have a single or double T Post tensioned concrete plank deck. These move a lot plank to plank and are usually designed right out to the limit when installed. I, like most of my brethren, do not work for free. Our knowledge is our stock in trade, just like an engineer or an architect. You are over your head.:vs_no_no_no:





PDE said:


> Jagans - reposting from my post above:
> "Not trying to promote this company - product, just trying to find others with experience, either good or bad, to help decide if we should install this roofing system. Again, we plan to tear off the old TPO and ISO, inspect - repair the deck, then install tapered ISO for insulation and provide some slope, followed by roof system as recommended by manufacturer - general contractor hired to professionally install."
> 
> Fully agree and not focused on the Warranty offered - trying to focus on real solutions as we have to replace our currently roofing system. We hired a licensed Roof Inspector to do a Nuclear Survey on 5'x5' grids, and +85% of the results on this moisture survey were above spec. Therefore have been informed per local code - we HAVE to tear off and start over!
> ...


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Were I you, I would take a close look at lightweight insulating concrete for your substrate, like the NVS system which is patented by Siplast Corp. You will never need another substrate or insulation, you can slope the material to drain regardless of the location of the drains, as you do not need to mitre insulation boards. (Much waste re mitres with iso) You do not have the problem of board insulation blowing off the roof during install. I installed a LIC sloped to drain at 3/8 inch per foot and installed 45XT fleecebacked fibertite over the LIC system with additional mechanical fasteners to a preinstalled nailer grid located at high wind areas at 4 and 10 feet in from parapet, and crossed into same. This was on a High rise condo very similar to the one you describe. The fleece-backed material provides a shear plane below the membrane. Job came out exceptional. Pumping asphalt 13 stories was a problem as was ground space, so getting everything up on the roof was a bonus. Hot requires quite a bit of ground staging space.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I have to ask, how did that system come out cost wise compared to a traditional ISO system? Around here light weight insulated concrete doesn't last, far to many building owners allow the roof to leak, or don't know it's leaking until it's to late. Then they are stuck with removing down to the decking. Another thing is, that would be a pita to tear back off, how much of the light weight insulated concrete will come up with it.


That would have been one heck of a pump to do 13 stories, I'd have looked at dropping the kettle on the roof


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1985gt said:


> I have to ask, how did that system come out cost wise compared to a traditional ISO system? Around here light weight insulated concrete doesn't last, far to many building owners allow the roof to leak, or don't know it's leaking until it's to late. Then they are stuck with removing down to the decking. Another thing is, that would be a pita to tear back off, how much of the light weight insulated concrete will come up with it.
> 
> 
> That would have been one heck of a pump to do 13 stories, I'd have looked at dropping the kettle on the roof


Hi 1985gt. glad to hear you are still on this side of the grass. 

As I recall, it was cheaper, all things considered, but the roof that I refer to was unusual in that the drains were all over the place, not in a line and equidistant like they are in most cases. The roof in question also had an APP modified Bitumen roof torched directly to the asphalt coated roof deck, which I retained as a vapor retarder, waterproofing layer while the LIC was poured. LIC can be of considerably different density based on the mix. I have encountered quite a few that were largely OK when the membrane was torn off, and repair was an option. I have also run into that which you describe though, and you are quite right re the roof being wet and either being ignored, or the owner simply does not know. In a lot of places you cannot put a kettle on the roof, but yes, that is truly an option I did not do it because I did not use asphalt on the job I did. The fleeced-back membrane was adhered with adhesive.

As you know, a hell of a lot of thought goes into putting the right roof on any building, and it takes a lot of roofing knowledge to prevent a disaster. SOme of the things that the OP said do not make much sense to me ie. Why do a Nuclear Survey if you are removing the roof system? How the heck do you inspect the cables on a concrete plank deck???? Of course there are so many types of concrete decks out there, who knows, maybe you can. 

I have worked with many engineers and architects, and most of them admitted that they did not know squat about roofs. Architects used to get about 4 hours on roofing in college. I was called by a client to look at a spec that was produced by an architectural firm on the eastern shore, and after I got up off the floor after peeing in my pants and laughing I reread the opening line on the first page of the project manual: This is close to verbatim " 

"The intent of this specification is provide instructions on how to install a mechanically fastened, fully adhered, ballasted muti-ply single ply EPDM roofing system"

At a meeting convened with the designer of record, I asked him just exactly what kind of roof was it his intent to have installed? He could not answer me other than "yeah we want something sort of like that"

Needless to say, I had a hell of a time getting the low bid contractor to install a roof that would perform.

I do not know how many roofing contractors know this but per CSI and AIA documents they are required to appraise the designer of record of any disparity or confusion in the project documents prior to offering a bid for consideration. In other words, they are supposed to question the guy who is supposed to know what he is doing. As I am sure you know, about 7 times out of 10 they don't. LOLOLOLOLOL


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## Paultergeist (Oct 13, 2014)

Just a quick "thank you" post to 1985gt and jagans for their most detailed replies. I don't have anything to contribute to the thread discussion, but I am reading along and gleaning some insights from the two of you.

Oh, how I wish -- with my own roofing challenges -- that you guys were my next-door neighbors......


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Paultergeist said:


> Just a quick "thank you" post to 1985gt and jagans for their most detailed replies. I don't have anything to contribute to the thread discussion, but I am reading along and gleaning some insights from the two of you.
> 
> Oh, how I wish -- with my own roofing challenges -- that you guys were my next-door neighbors......


Thank You Paul. I have been MIA for some time, but I have found 1985GT, WOW, and Joe Caption to be very informed regarding the black art of roofing. Personal issues have kept me away for a while but I will try to help you whenever I can. One thing to remember is that none of us who respond to questions regarding roofing have a dog in the fight, but I have actually had some people ask a question, and then argue with all of us on this forum. Now, there are admittedly differences in the way that things are done in different parts of the country, but If an OP argues with Me, Joe, Eric, and 1985gt (Sorry GT I do not know your name) it is pretty clear they are pushing chain. I will add that it is extremely helpful to always add images to your post when you have a problem, because all of have probably seen the problem before when presented as an image. On steep roofs, it is always helpful to take photos from inside the attic if that is possible. In a way, we are better than a neighbor, because the guys here usually leave their ego's at the door.

Thanks Again for the kind words.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> Holy smokes. You flushed out jagans.


Hey Eric, hope you are well. I have been MIA re personal problems. Doing an IR Survey tonight, perfect weather for it. :wink2:

Stay Well, 
JA


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