# Water Treatment - Clack Valve always leaking



## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

BimmerDOm said:


> My iron filter has a Clack WS1 valve and it always leaks in the drain. I already replaced the spacer stack twice and still leaks... wtf?
> 
> If i open up the valve and re-seat the spacer stack, then it pretty much stops the leaking until the next regeneration
> 
> ...


Unless you don't have it in right (which I suspect), you should always replace a stack and the piston, not just one or the other. The same as for a Fleck piston and seals.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

I never did order a piston, I will try that next. To be safe, I'll order another stack as well.

Just to confirm, the piston you are referring to is circled in red in diagram attached.

Also, I think I installed the stack correctly, I used a rounded stick to push in the center of the stack firmly on the inside as per the instructions.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

That is only the brine piston, I can't see the numbers that well but it looks like #4a and 4b, that is the main piston and will be up flow or down flow. You need a new one of them including a new brine piston.

A stick!! Maybe that is damaging the seals. Do not touch the clear lips of the seals with anything but water or the pistons.

I've never read anywhere that you should use a stick. You push the stack in by hand.

Then put the piston in the hole and screw the drive end cap in to tighten it exactly as the instructions in the manual say and stop.

Before you buy anything new, find and follow the instructions about replacing the piston and see what happens when the stack is positioned correctly; without a STICK!


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Not a wood stick per se, I was using rubber covered wrench handle as a "blunt object" as per instructions:

"The spacer stack assembly can be pushed in to the control valve body bore by hand. Since the spacer stack assembly can be compressed it is easier to use a blunt object (5/8” to 1-1/8” in diameter) to push the center of the assembly into the control valve body."


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Well to my knowledge that's not from Clack or in any of their manuals and the drive end cap does the compressing as you tighten it. But you have to follow the instructions so you tighten it just enough to compress it and stop in the right place, how should be in the manual you copied the picture from.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Yup, straight from Clack Manual

http://www.clackcorp.com/valve/Manuals/V3115-99_WS1_1.25_Drawings_and_Service_Manual.pdf

See page 38


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

I stand corrected, that is a newer manual than mine but... you should follow the instructions at the top of page 38.

Page 38 WS1 & WS1.25 Drawings and Service Manual
To remove the main piston fully extend the piston rod and then unsnap the main piston from its latch by pressing on the side with the
number. Reattach the main piston to the drive cap assembly. Reattach the regenerant piston (if needed) to the main piston. Do not lubricate
the piston rod, main piston or regenerant piston. Lubricant will adversely affect the clear lip seals. 

Reinsert the drive cap assembly and piston into the spacer stack assembly and hand tighten the drive cap assembly. Continue to tighten the drive cap assembly using a screwdriver as a ratchet until the black o-ring on the spacer stack assembly is no longer visible through the drain port. 

Excessive force can break the notches molded into the drive back plate. Make certain that the main drive gear still turns freely. The exact position of the piston is not important as long as the main drive gear turns freely.

Reattach the drive assembly to the control valve and connect all plugs. After completing any valve maintenance involving the drive
assembly or the drive cap assembly and pistons unplug power source jack from the printed circuit board (black wire) and plug back
in or:
• For valves that use a TC circuit board (three buttons) press and hold SET and DOWN buttons for 3 seconds. The cover button
may have other names like “SET HOUR”, “CLOCK” or “SET CLOCK” but the circuit board is labeled with SET.
• For all other valves press and hold NEXT and REGEN buttons for 3 seconds.
This resets the electronics and establishes the service piston position. The display should flash all wording, then flash the software
version and then reset the valve to the service position.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey Gary, the saga never ends, I replaced all the internal parts and after 3 successful regenerations, it is leaking yet again.

I think I found the problem, the first set of o-rings on the spacer stack always get worn down - that is the common problem I identified on all 4 of my spacer stacks. So.... I'm thinking that maybe some greensand is leaking through the stack? I do see a few grains. Could this be my problem?


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

What is the backwash rate?
How many gallons per minute is the flow control for your unit?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

6GPM is the rated supply flow rate

As per spec of unt: *Requires a 5.3 gpm well pump flow rate. *


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> 6GPM is the rated supply flow rate
> 
> As per spec of unt: *Requires a 5.3 gpm well pump flow rate. *


If you are getting green sand media into the valve there are only a few reasons.
A) backwash rate to high, ie should be 5gpm and 7gpm is getting used.
B) crack in distributor tube in upper part to let backwash flow add extra flow at the upper part getting some of the media to get into the valve.
C) getting air into the system so that a boiling like action takes place and getting some of the media into the drain line and valve.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

This is the unit:
http://www.affordablewater.us/Green...ese-Filter-Non-Chemical-10-Cu-Ft-P354C82.aspx

Not sure what you mean by
C) getting air into the system so that a boiling like action takes place and getting some of the media into the drain line and valve.

It does claim to have air-injection to activate the greensand


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> This is the unit:
> http://www.affordablewater.us/Green...ese-Filter-Non-Chemical-10-Cu-Ft-P354C82.aspx
> 
> Not sure what you mean by
> ...


We have all seen water boil on the stove, when a system backwashes the water is steady in its flow, the boiling that I am talking about is when air is down in the media along with the water and there is the bubbling and that can get media into the valve and drain line.

How often is the unit going into a cleaning cycle?

Is there a second backwash after the air draw part of the cycle?

When I am using green sand it is using potassium permanganate for the recharge.

Have any of the settings been changed?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

How often is the unit going into a cleaning cycle?
>> I run it manually once a week, and plug the drain after the backwash

Is there a second backwash after the air draw part of the cycle?
>> Yes, there are 5 cycles, 1 is backwash, 2 is air generation, 3,4,5 and rather fast and not sure what happens


Have any of the settings been changed?
>> no

I need to get to 20 posts to use PMs


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> How often is the unit going into a cleaning cycle?
> >> I run it manually once a week, and plug the drain after the backwash
> 
> Is there a second backwash after the air draw part of the cycle?
> ...


Here is my first idea on this,
Backwash for 10 minutes
Brine draw or air draw for 45 minutes
Rapid rinse 6 minutes
Brine refill, but that should not happen because there is a one way check valve on the brine line?

for the next few days after the cleaning cycle the air that is in the top half of the tank slowly gets moved out or used... if there is a second backwash right after the brine draw or air draw that might be bubbling the media enough to get some of it into the valve and get it to leak to the drain.

I will check with you later today...


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Hey AK, it's nice to be able to help someone out without having to endure endless arguments yes? Best DIY site on the web. :thumbsup:


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes getting to the root of a challenge and going over some ideas to fix that challenge with out the B.S. that ends up going on.
Like this one, replace the seal pack assembly with piston and the challenge returns, to me that says that there is a challenge that is NOT the seal pack assembly with piston... so what could it be... there are only a few reasons why , and by going through each reason to find which one is the reason for the season of challenge..


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

BimmerDOm said:


> Hey Gary, the saga never ends, I replaced all the internal parts and after 3 successful regenerations, it is leaking yet again.
> 
> I think I found the problem, the first set of o-rings on the spacer stack always get worn down - that is the common problem I identified on all 4 of my spacer stacks. So.... I'm thinking that maybe some greensand is leaking through the stack? I do see a few grains. Could this be my problem?


What you are calling o-rings are the seals.

Then yes, it sounds as if you are getting mineral up into the control valve during backwash. That possibly is due to too much air that is lifting the mineral too high during backwash. This is the first you mentioned air injection as part of the filter. It, the air, is being sucked in during brining right, you don't have a separate air injector in the water line ahead of the filter do you?

Either way, are you replacing the stack and piston together or not? Only do it together, a damaged piston can cause the seals in a new stack to fail as yours is. Mineral can too. And don't use anything but the heel of your hand to push the stack in so you can thread the drive end cap on.

It sounds as if you have too much air being added.

What do you mean that after backwash you plug the line? 

That could mean you are not allowing final rinse and that will leave the mineral bed expanded and not compacted, leaving the top of the mineral up in the tank closer to the control valve than were it is supposed to be. And then when backwash starts it doesn't take much backwash until the the top of the bed is getting up into the control valve.

I suggest you only take advice from the guys you bought this filter from. If you take other advice, they can say this is your fault, any they will probably be right if you made changes they don't approve of, like the minutes the cycle positions run for or the gpm of the DLFC.

BTW, I've never heard of air injection with greensand filters. And if they are using the brining position to introduce air, that never works well for long.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Air injection is sometimes used with greensand plus. Here is one site that sells such filters:

http://www.aquascience.net/oxygen-chamber-systems/


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

I see. 

I doubt it will work well. And as we see, this control valve is eating seals probably caused by the introduction of air. 

Every few years someone thinks it's a good idea to suck air into a filter through the control valve or by some other means but over the last 30 yrs it has never worked.

I think when the OP answers my questions we may see this air or other potential causes not mentioned in the 3 suggestions made by someone else here going on about something being BS somewhere.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I hate air injection. We all got sucked (ha ha) into that whole thing 20 years ago. It was supposed to be the ultimate answer and turned out to be the ultimate service nightmare. Does it work? sure it does and in theory it is a good idea. In practice though it turned out to be something else altogether. We still run across injected systems and generally recommend tearing them out. If you must go with one or keep the one you have then I strongly recommend keeping the piping from the injector to the tank as short as possible, with as few elbows as possible and a couple of unions at both ends so you can take the pipe off and clean the crap out of it is a good idea. BTW, I have found that PVC takes longer to clog up than copper does.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

But he doesn't have a venturi air injection system. 

His air is added by the control valve into the top of the mineral tank.

*An air injector is built into the control valve (most other Internet companies fail to include this important part of the system). *


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback.

I'd love to deal with the company that sold me the unit (www.affordablewater.us), but they refuse to deal with me, accusing me of breaking the unit. They sent me 2 replacement stacks and after those failed, they said screw-off
Lesson 1: don't buy from Internet, or at least not from people like www.affordablewater.us

So, should I manually change the settings on the backwash/regen?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> the air, is being sucked in during brining right, you don't have a separate air injector in the water line ahead of the filter do you?


No, the air injector is on top of the clack valve



Gary Slusser said:


> Either way, are you replacing the stack and piston together or not?


yes, 3 times already



Gary Slusser said:


> What do you mean that after backwash you plug the line?


I kink the backwash line so water does not flow out after the backwash/regen cycle is completed... obviously not a permanent solution


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Picture of top of valve, notice the air "injector"


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> If i open up the valve and re-seat the spacer stack, then it pretty much stops the leaking until the next regeneration


While the fact that you are getting media into the valve seems to explain the repeated seal failures I am wondering if there is something else going on with the valve as indicated by your comment "If i open up the valve and re-seat the spacer stack" then the leaking pretty much stops. I am wondering if the spacer stack can move so that it then leaks. Movement might occur if the stack is installed incorrectly or if there is a manufacturing defect in the valve body.

It would be helpful if you checked your valve programming and then post what you currently have for programming to ensure that the programming is not causing the problem.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob999 said:


> "If i open up the valve and re-seat the spacer stack" then the leaking pretty much stops.


Actually, I posted this comment a while ago, but the same seal keep on failing on the spacer stacks that I replaced (even with a new piston), so this comment should be ignored.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

One other thought--what size drain line flow control (DLFC) button is installed? The DLFC button is installed in a fitting on the drain line and should be marked with a number that indicates the gallon per minute. An oversized DLFC could result in media being washed into the control head during backwash.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I'd love to deal with the company that sold me the unit (www.affordablewater.us), but they refuse to deal with me, accusing me of breaking the unit. They sent me 2 replacement stacks and after those failed, they said screw-off
> Lesson 1: don't buy from Internet, or at least not from people like www.affordablewater.us
> ...


What are the current settings for the cleaning cycle?
number of days between cycles
back wash minutes
draw/rinse minutes
rapid rinse minutes
brine refill minutes

I service a clack valve that draws air like yours, just a simple check valve with out the little brass wire deal.. and it has been working for the customer for 4 years now , there is either brum or green sand for the media ,, so it does work..


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Bimmer, have you changed the main piston and the brine piston when you changed the stack? The brine piston is what you circled in red in the picture of the valve parts. 

It attaches to the end of the main piston and only the main piston runs in the seal that is being damaged.

Your programming times for the cycle positions and the 5.3 gpm DLFC that you have mentioned sounds OK to me but I don't know what DLFC should be used for your mineral or size of filter.

The picture of the part attached to the brine line elbow on the top of the valve is nothing more than a check valve and screen air filter. It allows air to be sucked into the valve during Brining and that creates a head of trapped air in the top of the mineral tank. It stops water from going back out through it when the valve is in the Refill position.

If there is a second Backwash, the air is going out the drain line and lost.

During Rinse and then Service, the water with the iron etc. in it is going through the head of hair which is supposed to help in oxidizing the iron etc.. It can't and won't do much of that oxidation because there isn't enough air or time that the iron is in contact with the air. And the air is going to be dissolved into the water and over the time between regenerations, the volume will decrease because the air is being absorbed into the water.

This adding air through the Brining position thing has been attempted for decades and as yet no one has ever gotten it to work right for long. And as we see, AKpsdvan has been servicing one for the last 4 years. Something that works doesn't need service like that.

EDIT.... you have not said what the cycle position times are. What are they?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> EDIT.... you have not said what the cycle position times are. What are they?


It is set for the following program: P1

which means (according to the manual)
C1 - 1st backwash 8 minutes
C2 - Regenerate 50 minutes
C3 - 2nd Backwash 8 minutes
C4 - Rinse 4 minutes
C5 - Fill - set at 1 minute

Cycles between cleanings is set at 99 days since I do it manually once a week. I need to unplug the drain pipe and re-plug it once it has finished to prevent water from leaking continually.

Are these settings correct for the application? That's how the unit came.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

The settings are not correct.

There should not be a second backwash. (C3 should be 0)
There should not be a fill (C5 should be 0)

I think the regeneration should be 30 minutes and I believe you should do a regeneration every 3 days.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

bob999 said:


> one other thought--what size drain line flow control (dlfc) button is installed? The dlfc button is installed in a fitting on the drain line and should be marked with a number that indicates the gallon per minute. An oversized dlfc could result in media being washed into the control head during backwash.


"053"

5.3 gpm


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

The DLFC is fine.

I think the problem is the second backwash.

Because you have the Clack TC valve you won't be able to get the recommended settings I posted above.

As a work around I recommend you set it to P4 with 1 minute of fill (the minimum allowed). If the check valve is working correctly no water should leak during the one minute fill. If water leaks there is a problem with the check valve.


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> It is set for the following program: P1
> 
> which means (according to the manual)
> C1 - 1st backwash 8 minutes
> ...


Yes Bob it on it.... there should be NO Second back wash..
C1 12minutes
C2 Regen 50
C3 off or 0 
C4 rinse 6 minutes
C5 off or 0
Set the unit to cycle every 7 days ..

Once you have the seal/piston pack assembly clean and back in with the new settings there should be no leaking.

It is the second back wash that is putting media up into the valve, that boiling that I was taking about?.....


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks guys

I set to P4, and C5 is at 1 minute (1-99 only). 

As per the WS1TC manual page 15:

Step 5SS asks if I want 50 or 60hz, which one?

Step 6SS ask if a differential pressure switch is installed and actuated, 

- a regeneration will occur immediately is no arrow points at Regen Hour
- a regeneration will occur at the delayed regeneration hour s an arrow points at Regen Hour

Which one?


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> I set to P4, and C5 is at 1 minute (1-99 only).
> 
> ...


Either the 50 or 60 will work... 
You have a normal pressure switch, they are asking about a different type.
Do the de-layed regeneration... 

Looks like you are good to go and should no longer have any media getting up into the seal/pack assembly.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks a lot, I made all the changes, now running P4, C5 is set at 1, 60hz and delayed regeneration.

I will provide you feedback in the next couple of weeks. Just want to thank all of you and greatly appreciate your advice and input.

:thumbup:


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

BimmerDOm said:


> Thanks a lot, I made all the changes, now running P4, C5 is set at 1, 60hz and delayed regeneration.
> 
> I will provide you feedback in the next couple of weeks. Just want to thank all of you and greatly appreciate your advice and input.
> 
> :thumbup:


P1 is the default setting in all Clack WS-1 CS valves.

You can not individually set the minutes of a CS version Clack WS-1.

You have a regenerated filter, not a softener. The P4 is incorrect for a regenerated filter. That gets you backwash of 4, brining 60, 2backwash 4 and rinse 3 minutes and the 2nd backwash you do not want. 

I say it should be set up and programmed as a regenerated filter with P7x IF you need the backwash time of 12 minutes and the brining of 50 minutes that has been suggested. 50 minutes of sucking air is a lot of air in the tank and IMO way too much for IIRC your 1.0 cuft regenerated filter.

Too much air and the mineral will always get up into the valve during the first backwash, and as we see, that tears up seals and probably pistons.

The people you bought this from do not know what to program the valve to, including how much air the thing should put in the mineral tank. They should have sold 2-3 to test customers and got feedback on them for like 3-6 months and learned what worked and what didn't before they started selling them to everyone. 

And their prospective customer (you) should understand that when only a few dealers are selling something and although "chemical free" sounds as global warming GREEN as St Patrick's Day, it may not be very good out in the real world.


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gary Slusser said:


> P1 is the default setting in all Clack WS-1 CS valves.
> 
> You can not individually set the minutes of a CS version Clack WS-1.


The question is what version of the valve does the poster have?

I posted on the basis that he has the TC version of the valve--The link provided by the poster shows a TC version of the valve in the picture.

The fact that the poster said he set the fast rinse to 1 minute is consistent with the valve being a TC.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Yes if he has a WS1 TC then what I said about P1 and P7x doesn't apply.

I still say the 50 minutes of air suction is too long.

The Fast Rinse shouldn't be 1 minute, I think you meant the Refill.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Boy oh boy, reading through these threads sure makes me grateful I just have a well and a jet pump in a pit! LOL
Great, clean and clear water... You have my sympathies, Don. Po)

DM


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gary Slusser said:


> Yes if he has a WS1 TC then what I said about P1 and P7x doesn't apply.
> 
> I still say the 50 minutes of air suction is too long.
> 
> The Fast Rinse shouldn't be 1 minute, I think you meant the Refill.


Yes I meant Refill.

I agree that the 50 minutes of air suction is longer than necessary. Unfortunately with the Clack TC there are few options-- only 3 that don't have the second backwash and have regeneration (air draw) time. The choices for air draw are 50, 50, and 6 minutes. I don't think 6 minutes would be sufficient.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

I use the Clack WS-1 CS version set up as a backwashed or regenerated filter, much more flexibility.

Six minutes might be just about right for a head of air in maybe the top 6-8" of the tank. Otherwise you get it to fill the freeboard area and down into the mineral. That will throw mineral up into the valve everytime it goes into backwash and the compressed air explodes out through the valve as the main line water pressure fills the void up through the mineral bed.

He should call the guys he bought it from and get them to find out how much time.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> He should call the guys he bought it from and get them to find out how much time.


P4 is what they recommend...???


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> P4 is what they recommend...???


How much time is the P4?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

P4:
C1 Backwash = 10
C2 Regenerate = 50
C3 2nd Backwash = Skipped
C4 Rinse = 8
C5 Fill = 1-99 (1 recommended)


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> P4:
> C1 Backwash = 10
> C2 Regenerate = 50
> C3 2nd Backwash = Skipped
> ...


Is there any way of changing any of the times?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

No, not with the model WC1TC model


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## Akpsdvan (Mar 25, 2010)

BimmerDOm said:


> No, not with the model WC1TC model


Then you could use P6 it only has a 6 minute brine pull.

I was looking to see if there is a brine flow control button... could not find one... if it was .5gpm maybe changing it to .25gpm to pull less air in,, but as I said I could not find on in the parts of the valve manual that I have..


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

I will leave it on P4 as the manufacturer recommends... and I will report in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your assistance!


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

BimmerDOm said:


> P4 is what they recommend...???


I don't understand your.... ??? 

Sorry I didn't see where you said they told you P4 or anything else, it came with P1 you said and I thought Bob999 suggested P4.

I think P4 allows too much air and you'll be replacing seals and pistons again.


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

I simply put the ??? because it is what the manufacturer recommends, but clearly not what you guys think.

The unit came with P1, but the manufacturer told me that P4 is how it should have shipped


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

I buy from the same supplier they do and the supplier does not program the control valve. The guys you buy it from are supposed to tell you how and what to program it too. I don't think the guys you bought from know what it should be programmed to and two dealers here are telling you 50 minutes of brining is too long and you should go with 6 minutes.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Bimmer, what have you done and how is it going now?


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

I am using the supplier's recommended P4 setting and it is fine... for now. 

I will wait about a month and I will update


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## BimmerDOm (Oct 20, 2009)

6 months later - the system is still running fine using the new P4 program. Thanks for your help, issue resolved and case closed!


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

Good to hear your problem is resolved!


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