# Variable Speed Pump keeps tripping Breaker



## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Hello & Merry Christmas to All,

Is it ok to post a pool electrical problem here? I have a long history [over 21 months] of a variable speed pump tripping a 20Amp GFCI DP Breaker.

If so, pls let me know what specifics you need to know?

Thank you very much,
tstex

PS - if anyone solves this [and I will be very honest], I will send you a $100 gift card if the Forum has no problem w that. I am still 21 mo's into a 3 yr warranty, but do not want to wait...


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## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

What is the horsepower and number of phases of the motor?


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

mm11 said:


> What is the horsepower and number of phases of the motor?


Here's a link to the TOC of the VSP that will answer many questions:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/609555/Hayward-Sp3400vsp.html?page=2#manual

History of pool equipment and electrical issues [abbreviated]:

Upon activation of equipment in late Jan 2015, the breakers tripped consistently on a daily or every other day basis, sometimes 2 at the same time until early March 2015
- replaced part on bus-board panel Feb 2015
- replaced all Siemens breakers [20amp QF220P DP GFCI and same 15 amp, to Sq-D breakers of all the same spec's
-went from 3 breakers to 6 breakers Feb 2015 [both VSP & Scupper Pump were both on their own separate 20amp GFCI breaker]
-replaced entire EcoStar3400VSP March 2015
-replaced motor on second replacement pump Dec 2015
-replaced drive on second replacement pump June 2016
-replaced the drive again on the second replacement pump, but breaker is still tripping Dec 15 2016
-VSP tripped breaker in late Nov 2016, tripped it again 3-4 days later...VSP was moved to another 20amp breaker and heater/blower was moved to recently tripped breaker...3-4 days later, VSP tripped the breaker it was moved to..2-3 days later, the second drive was replaced on pump..2 days later, the VSP tripped the same breaker
-have replaced 3 LED Color Logic LIGHTS, 2 pool & 1 spa [March 2015 - Dec 2015]
-this has all happened w/in the first 21 months of install 
-during this time, the 70amp breaker that services the pool sub-panel has never tripped, as well as any other breaker in either of our two 200amp house service panels


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## RRH (Nov 24, 2016)

All of that would almost make me want to get rid of my own pool.

Have you tried the pump on a NON GFCI breaker to test?
Plenty of people had pools before GFI breakers came out for years. Including me.
So don't worry about doing it for a short term test.
Just a guess. But that pump looks good on paper. But too many things to go wrong with it. And not a long history on that new model.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

RRH said:


> All of that would almost make me want to get rid of my own pool.
> 
> Have you tried the pump on a NON GFCI breaker to test?
> Plenty of people had pools before GFI breakers came out for years. Including me.
> ...


 Thanks RRH...yes on non GFCI breakers, but now code is that a GFCI breaker is a requirement...my strategy is to keep it simple and make a solid product w as few bells & whistles as possible...seems everything today is build w planned obsolescence


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

So the pump runs on a regular breaker without issue? 

Have you tried to run the pump on continuous max speed? (I didn't see a non-Variable speed option or by-pass sort of thing.) 

I assume that you've bonded the pump appropriately. If so, you may need to try some line chokes. 

Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

supers05 said:


> So the pump runs on a regular breaker without issue?
> 
> Have you tried to run the pump on continuous max speed? (I didn't see a non-Variable speed option or by-pass sort of thing.)
> 
> ...


 The pump can be set to run at any speed...the whole idea of having a VSP is for energy savings of not having to run it on high amperage draw...this the same concept as variable speed compressors on AC condensing units.

Yes, pump [bare wire] is grounded back to deck rebar...the green wire from flex conduit up into panel is on the neutral bus-bar to only 1 lug now, which right after last breaker flip on Dec 17, I changed it from 2 green wires on one lug, now the VSP is only on 1 lug

I am not sure how a line choke would disrupt the harmonic distortion, but since it is still under warranty, I am going to let Hayward make the calls. Obviously if I do anything not to their spec and something happens, you know the old "you voided your warranty" clause.

Finally, the pump has always run on a GFCI type breaker, due to code. Siemens is supposed to be the "go-to" breaker, but that is what I started out w and still had problems, thus they moved everything to Sq-D bc the sensitivity is supposed to be .015% less...pretty negligible in my book it that is an accurate delta.

Thanks, tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

mm11 said:


> What is the horsepower and number of phases of the motor?


 mm, did the link help to answer your questions?


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

tstex said:


> The pump can be set to run at any speed...the whole idea of having a VSP is for energy savings of not having to run it on high amperage draw......


I understand this. This is for troubleshooting. 

Line chokes don't have to be spliced into the pump. You can start with just the small iron chokes, it would be impossible for them to identify that it was there. If your concerned however, then I understand. Suggest it to them and maybe they will spec it out. 

My guess is that it's the changing speeds that's causing a disruptive harmonics. (distortion on a distortion.) Something odd, like the line length is amplifying the distortion. (think dipole effect.) You may have to lock out a specific speed. 

Cheers!


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## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

Tstex, what is the motor horsepower? It's not listed in the spec sheet.


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## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

mm11 said:


> Tstex, what is the motor horsepower? It's not listed in the spec sheet.


it isnt listed because this is a all-in-one assembly, you must use the drive specs that is only 10.9 amps max


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## carmusic (Oct 11, 2011)

is the neutral separated from ground in the sub-panel?


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

carmusic said:


> is the neutral separated from ground in the sub-panel?


Car, there is a bare copper grd wire [looks like 10 or 12 ga] that is first attached to the heater, then the VSP pump, then to an auxiliary pump, then it goes below the surface into the ground [soil] All are attached by a std grd clamp & screw.

There are 2 other bare copper wires coming out of the equipment subpanel that goes into the ground too. As I recall when they were running wires to pool, there were plenty of bare copper wires attached to the decking rebar.

Finally, the gray flex conduit that is attached to the side of the pumps electrical drive system, goes to the bottom of the subpanel [a homerun w no relays or anything else] and the two blacks go to the 20amp DP GFCI Sq-D breaker and the green wire goes to the bus-board neutral lug. After the breaker tripped on Saturday, I removed the VSP's green wire from a lug w another green wire in it, then placed the pumps green wire in a neutral lug all by itself. I also checked each neutral lugs [all of them, even from the 70amp breaker that comes from the Garage 200 amp service panel] for tightness and torqued any of them that even had a 15-20 degree turn. I also did the same w all the screws/wires/conductors on the 20amp breakers for both pumps [of course, I flipped the 70amp breaker in the garage first].

Pls let me know if this answers your question?

MM, I have asked another pool installer of this type pump to tell me how the EcoStar 3400VSP is rated in HP or other? As soon as he responds, I will be sure to post back.

I do appreciate all of your help guys...I wish we could all be in front of the panel together...tstex


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

I recall someone else posting on a forum (might even have been this one) awhile back about a variable speed pool pump tripping a GFCI breaker no matter what they did. The only conclusion that could be reached was that it's a manufacturer defect. The pump does, in fact, leak enough current to ground to trip a GFCI - and that's not acceptable. The leakage is likely from TVS devices (overvoltage protection in the VFD) or noise suppression components (capacitors from line to ground). In that prior discussion, the manufacturer insisted that the pump was fine and the breaker was overly sensitive. That was not true. Replacing the GFCI breaker with another brand that might have a different trip curve was discussed. I don't recall what the ultimate solution was.

Since swapping breakers and replacing the pump has not fixed this. I would suggest considering a GFPE (30mA trip) breaker instead of the GFCI. Not sure which code cycle you are on that requires GFCI for this pump, but if you can use GFPE it will almost certainly fix this problem without significantly affecting safety.


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## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

I assume its a programmable VFD motor? one that you can set the rpms at the unit itself? turn the rpms down on startup. might have too big of an inrush, or where ever the speed adjusts itself.


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## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> I recall someone else posting on a forum (might even have been this one) awhile back about a variable speed pool pump tripping a GFCI breaker no matter what they did. The only conclusion that could be reached was that it's a manufacturer defect. The pump does, in fact, leak enough current to ground to trip a GFCI - and that's not acceptable. The leakage is likely from TVS devices (overvoltage protection in the VFD) or noise suppression components (capacitors from line to ground). In that prior discussion, the manufacturer insisted that the pump was fine and the breaker was overly sensitive. That was not true. Replacing the GFCI breaker with another brand that might have a different trip curve was discussed. I don't recall what the ultimate solution was.
> 
> Since swapping breakers and replacing the pump has not fixed this. *I would suggest considering a GFPE (30mA trip) breaker instead of the GFCI. Not sure which code cycle you are on that requires GFCI for this pump, but if you can use GFPE it will almost certainly fix this problem without significantly affecting safety*.


This is a very bad, non-code compliant, and possibly deadly suggestion.

GCFI protection is for people, and turns off the circuit when 5ma of leakage current is detected.

GFPE is for equipment only, and should NOT be substituted for GFCI protection.


People die every year from pool electrocutions.


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## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

Tstex- I think that your breaker is sized to small to handle the inrush. 

Based on the motor ampacity that's listed in the instructions, I would install a 30 amp GCFI breaker.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

mpoulton said:


> I recall someone else posting on a forum (might even have been this one) awhile back about a variable speed pool pump tripping a GFCI breaker no matter what they did. The only conclusion that could be reached was that it's a manufacturer defect. The pump does, in fact, leak enough current to ground to trip a GFCI - and that's not acceptable. The leakage is likely from TVS devices (overvoltage protection in the VFD) or noise suppression components (capacitors from line to ground). In that prior discussion, the manufacturer insisted that the pump was fine and the breaker was overly sensitive. That was not true. Replacing the GFCI breaker with another brand that might have a different trip curve was discussed. I don't recall what the ultimate solution was.
> 
> Since swapping breakers and replacing the pump has not fixed this. I would suggest considering a GFPE (30mA trip) breaker instead of the GFCI. Not sure which code cycle you are on that requires GFCI for this pump, but if you can use GFPE it will almost certainly fix this problem without significantly affecting safety.


Thanks poultan. This sounds like a very viable option. However, I am not an electrician, but I believe the VSP, in an outside environment, is tied into a pool/water system and is not Cord-and-plug based, per Section 210.8 calls for GFCI protection. Article 100 defines GFCI as a Class A device. UL93 identifies a Class A device as one that operates at 4mA - 6mA. This is a classic 5mA device geared for people protection vs purely equipment. Going to both 30mA and a class B I believe is a code violation per NEC rules. I agree w you that the greater variance/tolerance of 25mA would probably do the trick, but the VSP needs the 5mA tolerance, esp at a wet equipment pad.

KPDm, the VSP is not tripping on start-up, it's tripping on a slower RPM of 1380RPM vs the max of 3400PRM on start-up for 3 min's to insure pump is primed, then it defaults to an 85-80% RPM speed. But yes, you can program it to almost any speed down to about 1100RPM I believe.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

mm11 said:


> Tstex- I think that your breaker is sized to small to handle the inrush.
> 
> Based on the motor ampacity that's listed in the instructions, I would install a 30 amp GCFI breaker.


 
Thanks mm.

You beat me to the punch on the GFPE vs GFCI recommendation. I think we are both on the same page.

I am not positive on what was causing all the breakers to trip at the outset of the pool installation 21-22 months ago, but based on my recent 3-4 weeks of observations, the VSP has tripped the breaker when the pump has been in one of the 2 lower speeds/RPM's/Programs

The VSP comes on at 6am [speed 1], this is where it hits the max amp draw to prime pump, then after 3 min's goes to 2950RPM from 6am [really 6:03am] to 8am, the drops to 1380rpm [Speed 2] from 8am-2pm. It is during the Speed 2 [somewhere around 11am-12:30PM] that the breaker trips. Note, no other device [Aux Pump, blower, lights. etc] are run at this time. Nothing is plugged into the GFCI 110 outlet at the equip pad. This is what is so perplexing is the VSP trips the breaker when it's not drawing anything near 20amps or the buffer 16amps. If this was happening at start-up, then I can see increasing the breaker amperage. Am I missing something?

I do think Poulton was on to something about this being a manufacturer equipment issue and not a GFCI breaker issue...I just think something on the VFD's is not stable yet for commercial/residential usage...if so, the folks at my install have not perfected it yet.

Finally, I have read that the possible HP on the pump right under 3HP, 2.95HP...still waiting for a concrete confirmation - thanks again


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

What about a isolation transformer then? 

Cheers!


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

mm11 said:


> This is a very bad, non-code compliant, and possibly deadly suggestion.
> 
> GCFI protection is for people, and turns off the circuit when 5ma of leakage current is detected.
> 
> ...


Hold your horses, there. GFCI protection for hard-wired pool pumps is only a code requirement if this installation was done under the 2008 NEC or later. Prior to 2008, hard-wired pool pumps were not required to be GFCI protected. Many municipalities are still on older code versions (intentionally). Even if this municipality is on the 2008 or later NEC, if the installation was pre-existing then replacing the pump would not typically require that the branch circuit be changed to a GFCI-protected one.

I would also note that a properly bonded pump poses no hazard, with or without GFCI protection.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

mm11 said:


> Tstex- I think that your breaker is sized to small to handle the inrush.
> 
> Based on the motor ampacity that's listed in the instructions, I would install a 30 amp GCFI breaker.


There is no inrush current since it's a VFD (and the breaker is tripping during operation not at startup) so that is not the problem. Also, you cannot oversize the breaker since this is not a "motor load" - it's a VFD which drives a motor. The current version of the manufacturer's instructions specify a 15A circuit:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/EcoStar.pdf


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Poulton,

The original install date was oct/nov 2014, activation date was late jan 2015. Therefore, I believe that falls under the GFCI requirement.

I'm fairly confident that the pump and other equipment is properly bonded, so that is a good thing. The pumps can be wired for either 110 or 220, and both are 220. I've seen someone get hit w 120, but never 220. The latter could ruin your day, week and year...

Since the entire pump has been replaced, and the motor and 2 drives on the second pump, and the pump as recently tripped whatever breaker it is wired to over the last 3-4 weeks, then that only leaves 3 things:

1. The wiring btw the pump and breaker [all homeruns w no relays]; original wiring*
2. The whole panel/control system
3. The VSP design is inherently defective**

Notes:
1.* the panel/control box was red-tagged by the City Inspector bc it was installed infront of equipment instead of a clear path. The wiring from the garage's 200amp service panel I am very sure had to all be re-run. The move of the panel from the red-tagged area to a clear pathway is approximately 22". With that distance, I am sure all the wiring from the equipment to the newly relocated panel all had to be "re-home-runned" too. Three people did the orig install; only the electrician came back the next day by himself - not too sure how enthused he was to have to re-do everything all over again. 

2. ** Remember, the system ran for 6 or so months error free...if that is the case, then what causes all these failures now??


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

tstex said:


> Poulton,
> 
> The original install date was oct/nov 2014, activation date was late jan 2015. Therefore, I believe that falls under the GFCI requirement.
> 
> ...


Houston is on the 2011 NEC with no amendments that affect this issue, so GFCI is required. If there is nothing between the breaker and the pump besides known-good wiring, then the problem is with the pump. This is a known issue:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f57/pool-pump-gfci-protection-88641/


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

I'm not an electrician, so I'm really not familiar with your codes down there. If the OP were to use an isolation transformer, which side would the gfci have to be on? 

Panel side, protecting the whole circuit? This would likely stop nuisance trips as the distortions wouldn't make it though and leakages wouldn't have a path to conduct to. 

Load side of transformer? Useless case. Throw out this whole idea. 

Cheers!


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## radioman99 (Nov 21, 2016)

all this talk about replacing the breakers and such and not one mention of the wires replaced from gfci to pump and gfci to breaker. be sure the water bond is isolated from pump metal and pool and THEN connected via bond wire to the ground on the pump itself. this ensures no leakage. at the same time i have a feeling the wires in the conduit supplying power is nicked somewhere. what size wire is it and what size conduit is it? im guessing its the bare minimum. is the ground wire the same gauge same size of neutral? some installers skimp on this. i hate that. i always make it the same size. also can you confirm if the wires supplying power from breaker to pump solid or thhn? is the ground wire insulated in the conduit? 

also are you running anything else on the circuit for pump? sometimes just running a light on same circuit causes a cumulative effect of current leakage causing the breaker to trip. i would eliminate whatever you have on the line and make it dedicated circuit for pump only. if there is a extra plug.. take it out.


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## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

radioman99 said:


> all this talk about replacing the breakers and such and not one mention of the wires replaced from gfci to pump and gfci to breaker. be sure the water bond is isolated from pump metal and pool and THEN connected via bond wire to the ground on the pump itself. this ensures no leakage. at the same time i have a feeling the wires in the conduit supplying power is nicked somewhere. what size wire is it and what size conduit is it? im guessing its the bare minimum. is the ground wire the same gauge same size of neutral? some installers skimp on this. i hate that. i always make it the same size. also can you confirm if the wires supplying power from breaker to pump solid or thhn? is the ground wire insulated in the conduit?
> 
> also are you running anything else on the circuit for pump? sometimes just running a light on same circuit causes a cumulative effect of current leakage causing the breaker to trip. i would eliminate whatever you have on the line and make it dedicated circuit for pump only. if there is a extra plug.. take it out.



solid or thhn? >> dont you mean solid or 'stranded'? thhn is a description of insulation, not the conductor itself...


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Poulton, Super and Radio, thanks for the post..

P, yes, the link you posted is very interesting that w the way this VSP is designed, the code of GFCI breakers and the noise the VFD emits, that it crashes...I was about to get into the meat of the post [page 3], when I had to leave late last night, but will continue to read on later today

Super. I will document your suggestions and when the manufacturer comes on-site in early Jan 2017, I will propose the suggestions, as well as any others.

Radio, most of your answers are buried in the my earlier responses, but I will post again:

1. Both pumps [including the VSP in question], are both on their own separate 20AMP DP GCFI breaker...nothing else is on that circuit at all...

2. The pumps are both 220 configured, w two blk hots and one [insulated] green coming homeruns from the pump, via 3/4" flex conduit, nothing inbtw [ie relay, etc] direct to the 20amp breaker, while the green wire goes to the bus-board neutral [now single] lug. All wiring/conductors is 12ga, have all been checked for tight torque to spec...NOTE: after the last breaker trip on Sat Dec 17, I opened panel and found that the green neutral shared a neutral lug w another green neutral. I moved the pump green neutral to its own single lug, and securely tightened both neutral lugs.

3. Grounds/Bonding - The 'bare copper-wiring" that is attached to the heater and then to both pumps is attached via a std grounding clamp directly to the metal of each device via a screw and is home-runned to the panel area and disappears into the soil below the panel. this bare copper wire looks to be 12ga also. Two other bare copper wires come out of the bottom of the panel into the soil too, for a total of 3 w the wire coming off the equipment. When shooting the gunite and other, along w the rebar for the decking to spec, I noticed plenty of bare copper wiring, so I am sure the pool is properly bonded.

If there is anything I did not answer, pls let me know so I can post-back.

thank you gentlemen, tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

KPDMinc said:


> solid or thhn? >> dont you mean solid or 'stranded'? thhn is a description of insulation, not the conductor itself...


 all of the wiring from equipment to breakers is solid, insulated 12ga, same w what is going to neutral bus-board..

bare copper wiring on equipment is obviously non-insulated and 12ga..


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> found that the green neutral shared a neutral lug w another green neutral. I moved the pump green neutral to its own single lug, and securely tightened both neutral lugs.


Greens should be grounds. 
In a sub panel, grounds are kept separate from neutrals. 

The ground bar is bonded to the metallic case of the panel. The neutral bar is not bonded to the case.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

tstex said:


> NOTE: after the last breaker trip on Sat Dec 17, I opened panel and found that the green neutral shared a neutral lug w another green neutral. I moved the pump green neutral to its own single lug, and securely tightened both neutral lugs.


As Oso said, green is ground not neutral. GFCI breakers need to have neutral conductors connected just right or they will trip unpredictably. Can you describe in detail exactly how the pump circuits are wired in the panel, or even better, post pictures?


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Oso954 said:


> Greens should be grounds.
> In a sub panel, grounds are kept separate from neutrals.
> 
> The ground bar is bonded to the metallic case of the panel. The neutral bar is not bonded to the case.


 Yes, my bad...Thanks for the clarification.

The greens are in one area and the back bus-board are for the neutral legs...

Poulton, yes I will do both and get everything clear as crystal - thanks again for your post and follow-up, tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Oso954 said:


> Greens should be grounds.
> In a sub panel, grounds are kept separate from neutrals.
> 
> The ground bar is bonded to the metallic case of the panel. The neutral bar is not bonded to the case.


 Yes, thanks Oso, my bad..the green grounds are in one area and the neutrals for the legs are in the back...

Mpoulton, yes, I will make the picture crystal clear inside the panel for all...I appreciate your follow-up...tstex


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## czars2 (Jun 26, 2016)

I have had a lot of trouble with VS pool pumps, particularly Hayward. I finally got Hayward to admit to a problem with their pumps causing GFCI breakers to trip. What they admitted to was this: The circuitry that they use to convert the 120 or 240 volt input voltage to the multi-phase voltage that the pump uses puts noise on the input power lines that causes the GFCI breakers to trip. Apparently there is no ground fault problem. 

One solution that has worked for me is to use a Siemens GFCI breaker. They seem to be less sensitive than other brands. Another solution might be to install line filters between the GFCI breaker and the pump. Hayward indicated to me that they were looking filters that might be used. Contact Hayward and see if they will ID or provide suitable filters for your pump.


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

czars2 said:


> I have had a lot of trouble with VS pool pumps, particularly Hayward. I finally got Hayward to admit to a problem with their pumps causing GFCI breakers to trip. What they admitted to was this: The circuitry that they use to convert the 120 or 240 volt input voltage to the multi-phase voltage that the pump uses puts noise on the input power lines that causes the GFCI breakers to trip. Apparently there is no ground fault problem.
> 
> One solution that has worked for me is to use a Siemens GFCI breaker. They seem to be less sensitive than other brands. Another solution might be to install line filters between the GFCI breaker and the pump. Hayward indicated to me that they were looking filters that might be used. Contact Hayward and see if they will ID or provide suitable filters for your pump.


 CZAR, what Hayward pump gave you problems, and what was the install date and history?

I had Seimen's installed first, then they went to all Sq-D when they kept tripping, that took about 3-5 weeks worth of non-stop issues - now they started back again...I would be really interested if you could let me know who you spoke w at Hayward, or PM me if you could do so...it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, tstex


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

The filters that they are going to recommend are called line chokes..... Essentially iron rings that each live wire is coiled through several times. Otherwise, they are inert to the system, and the pump wouldn't "see" them.

Something like this... 
http://www.inverter.co.uk/chokes/single-phase-line-choke.htm

Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

supers05 said:


> The filters that they are going to recommend are called line chokes..... Essentially iron rings that each live wire is coiled through several times. Otherwise, they are inert to the system, and the pump wouldn't "see" them.
> 
> Something like this...
> http://www.inverter.co.uk/chokes/single-phase-line-choke.htm
> ...


 Thanks Super - where exactly are these installed? The controller/panel has no more room. All the breaker slots are gone. 

I assume the job of these "chokes" are basically to absorb any "noise" the pumps give off that will not send back to breaker. Do they have any impact on the power the pump needs or require more power for the same performance if wout chokes?

Thanks again, tstex


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

tstex said:


> Thanks Super - where exactly are these installed? The controller/panel has no more room. All the breaker slots are gone.
> 
> I assume the job of these "chokes" are basically to absorb any "noise" the pumps give off that will not send back to breaker. Do they have any impact on the power the pump needs or require more power for the same performance if wout chokes?
> 
> Thanks again, tstex


No they are generally sized to be almost invisible to 60Hz. For the most part there will be extremely limited impact on power and voltage drop. 

They stop higher frequencies. They won't stop ground faults. (that's what cfci's or isolation transformers are used for in labs and prototyping.) 

You install them anywhere along the line between the gfci and the motor controller. You'd need a box for it, and you'd need 2 of them, one for each line. (regardless if it's 120 or 240v) I only have an example, make sure the ones that you get are rated for your jurisdiction.

Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

THanks super, last ques...when you mean "one for ea line", are you referring for each pump or ea hot wire going from pump controller to GFCI breaker? 

During this thread, many people have asked me, "Is there 'anything' btw the pump and the gfci breaker, like a relay or something?" The answer to date is now, but If a choke was installed, now there would be...how would that impact the troubleshooting of the pump and breaker for any future potential issues?

THanks, tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

mpoulton said:


> As Oso said, green is ground not neutral. GFCI breakers need to have neutral conductors connected just right or they will trip unpredictably. Can you describe in detail exactly how the pump circuits are wired in the panel, or even better, post pictures?


Poulton, here is the exact description of how the pump wiring/conductors are installed inside the panel.

I followed the pump flex conduit coming off the controller of the VSP and traced it to the bottom of the panel where it enters. Out of the gray flex conduit there are 3 solid 12ga wires: 2 blk; 1 green. Both of the blks go to one 20AMP Sq-D DP GFCI breaker. One blk on the topside of the breaker, the other blk to the bottom half of the breaker. The green wire that comes out of the conduit goes to the "Green Ground" lugs in the bottom right of the panel. There are many other greens going into this area. Originally, the green from the pump was shared w another green wire, but we moved the VSpumps green to another lug in the green-grd area and now it is the only wire in that lug.

Off of the side of the 20amp Sq-D breaker, is a coiled white wire. The wire is then inserted and tightened into the neutral bus-board of the panel which is directly behind all the Sq-D breakers [four (4) 20AMP DP GFCI breakers and two (2) 15AMP DP GFCI breakers.

That's it. No other wires coming out of VSP flex line and no other wires being shared on the VSP's breaker. This set-up is exactly the same for the other pump, the Super II Scupper Pump...it has never tripped a breaker that I am aware. It's a single speed pump and is not run anywhere near the same hours as the VSP.

If you need any further description or anything else, pls let me know? I appreciate your help.

Thank you,
tstex


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

tstex said:


> THanks super, last ques...when you mean "one for ea line", are you referring for each pump or ea hot wire going from pump controller to GFCI breaker?
> 
> During this thread, many people have asked me, "Is there 'anything' btw the pump and the gfci breaker, like a relay or something?" The answer to date is now, but If a choke was installed, now there would be...how would that impact the troubleshooting of the pump and breaker for any future potential issues?
> 
> THanks, tstex


Electrical troubleshooting? None. The effects are above what the average meter could measure. 

Even if it shorts loop to loop, you wouldn't be able to tell except the gfci might start tripping again. 


I meant, one choke per current carrying conductor. So that's Hot and hot, for 2 pole versions (240v) and Hot and neutral for single pole versions. (120v) 


Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks Super, I got it. tstex


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Ok, even after the VSP GFCI 20AMP breaker had all hots to the breaker checked, the ground wire moved to its own separate lug, the breaker again tripped today, Jan. It also tripped during the low-speed or low draw time [1380 RPM) of the VSP.

Enclosed are some pics verifying the error message on Digital Remote, the breaker tripped [the VSP was moved to the same type 20amp breaker that served the Heater & Blower, and put on this breaker; the Heater/Blower was moved to the Main Pump Breaker - this is why it's labeled as it]. The VSP has tripped both breakers when placed on either 20AMP GFCI breaker. The last pic is the error on the Hayward Panel.

Are there any questions you have of me or, any questions I can propose to Hayward?

Thank you very much and I should would like 2017 to be a breaker-free-tripping year- tstex

Note: I reset the breaker and the pump came on. The pump Icon was still lit, thus the pump came on and shut off when it was supposed to do so.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

tstex said:


> Ok, even after the VSP GFCI 20AMP breaker had all hots to the breaker checked, the ground wire moved to its own separate lug, the breaker again tripped today, Jan. It also tripped during the low-speed or low draw time [1380 RPM) of the VSP.
> 
> Enclosed are some pics verifying the error message on Digital Remote, the breaker tripped [the VSP was moved to the same type 20amp breaker that served the Heater & Blower, and put on this breaker; the Heater/Blower was moved to the Main Pump Breaker - this is why it's labeled as it]. The VSP has tripped both breakers when placed on either 20AMP GFCI breaker. The last pic is the error on the Hayward Panel.
> 
> ...


Try locking out the low speed for a while and running on the higher speed. This is only a diagnostic test. There may be a specific rpm range that causes the troublesome harmonic distortions. 

Then vise versa, using only low speed. Try to make it reliability trip in front of them. 

Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks Super.

I mentioned that in electrical forums that the design of the VSP & GFCI breakers has caused issues. They are willing to replace the pump w a new pump. That really does not solve the problem per se...Also told them that a n-bor of mine w a 2 speed pump has not ever had a tripped breaker except when the pump went out over a 9 yr period. They offered to replace the current VSP w a 2 speed or single speed pump.

Re the RPM settings, the breaker tripping is so erratic that having it done in front of them would take A LOT camping. I do like changing the speeds, but if I go higher speed and stay there, then a 2 speed pump might be the way to go.

Finally, how many times does a breaker have to trip before it starts to loose its effectiveness? Thank you - tstex


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

tstex said:


> ..
> Re the RPM settings, the breaker tripping is so erratic that having it done in front of them would take A LOT camping. I do like changing the speeds, but if I go higher speed and stay there, then a 2 speed pump might be the way to go.


Troubleshooting sir... Troubleshooting... 

See if it stops tripping at that speed. Set it, walk away. No camping required. 

For VFDs (which is essentially what you have, except yours might be a ecm type,) we sometimes have to lock out a very specific frequency/rpm speed. Not a whole range block like a 2 speed, but literally a few steps only. You don't even notice the missing steps afterwards during normal operation. This is done for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest is resonance in the lines between the drive and motor. I believe, your are getting something similar between your control and the beaker. It's all about distance, line reactance, and very very specific distortions/frequencies. That probably, all just went right over your head, but the bottom line is that simple differences like physical lengths of the wire between 2 setups otherwise completely the same would show radically different results. (And I'm talking inches to feet, that's all that's needed. At radio frequencies, it's millimeters or less.) 



tstex said:


> ...
> Finally, how many times does a breaker have to trip before it starts to loose its effectiveness? Thank you - tstex


Not sure when it's gfci related. Thermal overload types are a few hundred maybe, depending on quality. They get weak and trip too easily usually. That may not apply to yours though, I really don't know. 


Cheers!


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## tstex (Nov 14, 2014)

Thanks SUper.

I actually understd what you are saying here...this a niche game w very specific sweet spots that work and ones that don't. Just need to find the ones that do based on the configuration of my set-up.

The manufacturer did come out today and replaced the entire VS-Pump, and the 20amp GFCI breaker that supports only the VSP. Since this was just done, I am going to leave all of the settings as they are, so I can set a temporary control. If the breaker trips again, then for sure it's either the configuration of current equipment, or the way the current configuration of equipment is programmed, possibly.

For the next 2-4 weeks, I will let it run as it is, and monitor/make written notes of any issues, and all of the current configurations. If the VSP breaker does trip in the next 7-14 days, then I'm going to start changing up the program RPM's to see where/if there is a sweet spot that does not cause the tripping. I will document everything that is done.

Thanks again and let me know if there are any additional options. Regards, tstex


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