# Labor cost only to replace a split system AC unit ?



## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

This won't be DIY, but maybe someone here can give me a good ballpark cost of labor for removing and replacing my 3.5 ton split system AC unit (outside condensing unit and garage ceiling mounted air handler unit).

I live in south Florida, and my 12 year old (2002) Trane split AC unit is going bad. The air handler is leaking water in my garage from a cracked and corroded drain pan and my condensing unit outside makes a loud rattling sound every time the compressor shuts off.

I have found a good direct replacement 3.5 ton Rheem split unit from Ingram's for $2,432 with free shipping ... here is a link:
http://ingramswaterandair.com/rheem...raight-cooling-seer-14ajm-series-p-17248.html

I just wonder how hard it would be to find a good AC man that would install a new system the customer bought on his own (no big $$ mark-up for the AC specialist on parts).

If he would install it with just the labor charge, what do you think a fair price would be just for the labor? ... I don't know if they need to add extra refrigerant to the unit ... The unit is supposed to be pre-charged with R-410A from the factory.

What ya think?

Ron,


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

No way of telling. Prices vary area to area. Company to company. I would say if you want reliable and a good price. Go with an Armstrong Air unit. Made by Lennox and very quiet.

Same with the indoor unit. As for pre-charged. Most come dry from the warehouse these days. You can still get R-22 units. But again those come dry with no charge.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Flt_Simulation said:


> maybe someone here can give me a good ballpark cost of labor for removing and replacing


If you want a ballpark figure here it is:

Dodger Stadium---56,000
Yankee Stadium---53,325
Coors Field--- 50,490 
Turner Field---50,097
Arlington Stadium---49,170
Comerica Park--- 41,255


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

hammerlane said:


> If you want a ballpark figure here it is:
> 
> Dodger Stadium---56,000
> Yankee Stadium---53,325
> ...


 I hope you didn't waste too much of your time looking up that info for me.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Flt_Simulation said:


> I hope you didn't waste too much of your time looking up that info for me.


Not at all. I have it saved for anytime someone requests ballpark figures on project costs. Sorry to be sarcastic but asking for estimates on this site will get you nowhere.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

$1850.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

hammerlane said:


> ..... asking for estimates on this site will get you nowhere.


I have never had this type of work done before. I was just thinking that someone else on this forum may have had this done and knew about how much they paid for labor ... or maybe at least knew about how many hours of work it normally takes to remove and replace a unit like this.

I wouldn't think it would be any secret as to what the labor is involved ... as it's no secret as to how many hours a labor a mechanic would normally charge a customer to remove and replace a transmission in a certain type of car.

Or, am I looking at this too simply?

.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

Most pros will not install customer supplied equipment.

1. Warranty gets messy-no manufacturer warranty from internet purchases.
2. If something breaks on the new unit-who is the homeowner going to blame? If I supplied the equipment-I go right down to the local distributor and get the warranty part the same day.

And again-the equipment is NOT EVERYTHING that goes into a job.

As far as time goes:
1. Slam it in bubba who has no skin in the game except for labor can do your job in lets say 4 hours.....
2. A meticulous attention to detail-braze with nitrogen, pull micron level vacs, seals holes.....might take 8 hours and is not running around putting in customer supplied equipment.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks Technow for the info

Well, I guess it might be a bad idea to buy the split system on the internet and then look for a good installer to put it in.

To me, it just seemed like the cheapest and simplest way to get this taken care of.

I guess I will just have to accept the fact that I will be paying a big mark-up on the cost of the condensing unit and the air handler ... well, at least I now have an idea as what these 2 units actually cost him.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Quality of workmanship is the most important detail especially in your climate. If they don't pull a proper vacuum on the Freon lines and get moisture in them ( your outdoor climate is very humid ) then it will turn into acid in the compressor and wreck it. Joe's heat em and cheatem won't so you should go with the better more expensive contractors if you want it to last and be setup properly and be more efficient. You do get what you pay for. Sounds like a mounting spring for your compressor inside the compressor is broken and it will die soon.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> I have never had this type of work done before. I was just thinking that someone else on this forum may have had this done and knew about how much they paid for labor ... or maybe at least knew about how many hours of work it normally takes to remove and replace a unit like this.
> 
> I wouldn't think it would be any secret as to what the labor is involved ... as it's no secret as to how many hours a labor a mechanic would normally charge a customer to remove and replace a transmission in a certain type of car.
> 
> ...



The automatic transmission in a 2003 Ford Mustang is the same on everyone 2003 mustang with an automatic transmission.

A furnace isn't installed the same way in every house that was built in 2003. So the time can be a lot different between one house and the next.

One HVAC company might not only make sure the furnace is sitting level, but also take the time and seal all joints like they should. The next won't care if the furnace is setting unlevel, and won't sela the joints.

Obviously, the one making sure its level and sealing all the joints will take longer. 

So best bet i to get multiple estimates. And then call each contractor back and find out what they are doing that makes them more expensive, or less expensive.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Thanks Technow for the info
> 
> Well, I guess it might be a bad idea to buy the split system on the internet and then look for a good installer to put it in.
> 
> ...


When you pay a contractor for equipment. Part of that mark up, is to cover any warranty work that may need done. 

Imagine you bought a system from an online place. And then the compressor dies 2 months later. The online place sends you that free compressor. But the contractor charges you to change it out, because you didn't buy the unit from him.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Well, I have a contractor coming over on Friday to give me an estimate.

I guess I will scrap the idea to buy the unit on the internet, but I really liked the idea of buying these units at pretty much the same price as what these contractors are buying them for.

oh well ... time to get the KY out!


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Well, I have a contractor coming over on Friday to give me an estimate.
> 
> I guess I will scrap the idea to buy the unit on the internet, but I really liked the idea of buying these units at pretty much the same price as what these contractors are buying them for.
> 
> oh well ... time to get the KY out!


What's the point in you buying the unit for almost the same price as the contractor, if you can't install it? it's easier to let them source the unit and install it and that way they can install a unit they want to back with a guarantee. I've never dealt with the public but I have to think there wouldn't be much worse then being paid to install something I consider crap for a customer and then get blamed when it fails. :furious:

I'm a DIYer but I plan on installing a bunch of minisplits at one point if the funds are ever there. For now, I'm stuck with window units and with a baby coming I've got a feeling it won't be for quite a while. :no:


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## clocert (Oct 14, 2010)

I did that for my kitchen sink. I bought the unit for $100, they charged me $375 to install. Later I asked that firm again, they said $375 including the sink.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Happens all the time. They got it at 50% or less of what you paid.

Same thing with faucets and the faucets contractors get are much better than that consumer grade junk at the Big Box stores even though it is Moen or another big brand. HDepot etc have batches made for them at a certain spec.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

I am in the same boat. I got a couple of quotes for my replacement system and they were about double what I could get the very same equipment for from an internet retailer. 

The deal is, I am the guy that isn't el cheapo. I am willing to pay a premium to have high quality local service. e.g. I go to mom and pop hardware stores because they know what they are talking about - even though I know I am paying more. I go to local camera/scuba/etc stores to buy gear even though I know I am paying more. 

Why? because the service they provide me.

However, there are limits to this. I would pay for a local HVAC contractor 15%-20% above what I would pay on the internet for equipment + $150/hr to replace my system for me. And I will assume the risk and pay for labor for any issues that come up. 

Note, this is a one-for-one swap. I don't need a new load calc, I don't need to have a system designed from scratch for a new house etc.... Just replace one set of gear for another. 

But in my case it is $4000 for gear + $4500 on top for install/markup. This is not reasonable. HVAC guys can talk about overhead costs all they want but if this kind of markup is required to make a reasonable profit margin (10%-20%) something is seriously wrong with the economics of this industry. 

Ordinarily in free market competition, this would resolve itself by having alot of consolidation of businesses to reduce overhead costs. Instead, I have 60 (at last count) independent HVAC companies in my metro area. IMO, this is due to barriers to provide trade protection. 

That is my rant and frustration dealing with the process but if you want to buy gear and get a licensed side-job contractor install it consider this...

For the most part your warranty is half a warranty at best. Usually, if you HVAC goes out you can't wait 1-3 days for a part to arrive via parcel and have it replaced. So you are just going to have to pay for the replacement part straight up (plus labor of course). 

So you are assuming risk. If you use my example, if I pay for the gear myself and have a HVAC licensed side jobber install it for me, it will cost me about $150 per hour for labor... depending on the size of course, most residential swap outs will take 8 hours or less. 

$1200 for labor
$4000 for equipment
= $5200. 

So a savings of $3300. Assuming no warranty, you would have to have some major stuff break to burn through that (e.g. probably burn up ~$500 for a leaking evap coil part - assuming no labor warranty). 

I have a big system for my house. If it was smaller, if that savings was $1k - $2k and I planned on living in the house for 10+years - I would just pay the $2000 and be done with it.

Ultimately you have to decide on how much risk you want to assume. Think of it as buying insurance. 

Maybe someday the FTC will take a look at business practices and clean them up but in the mean time this is decision making process and risks homeowners are left to consider.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

There is no reason for the FTC to look into it because there is no reason to. If you don't like the price move on. If you want bubba and billy-bob to put in your unit have at it. If they don't follow the details, n2, microns and you are okay with this...cool.....or not cool....  I hate that this equipment is made durable to last 15 - 20 years----ONLY BECAUSE THAT SAVES BUBBA and BILLY_BOB as they have already collected....6 months ago....1 year ago......when the unit craps out from bad workmanship.

There is much more that goes into a replacement besides the equipment! It amazes me that people think the 8 hours you spent on the job between when you showed up in the morning and got them cooling is all the time that is invested in that job. Jesus F-in Christ. The $$$ of copper, sheetmetal shop, and yes the freakin overhead of running a business.


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

As a homeowner that restors 1930s refrigerators all I can say is refrigeration units whether you're talking car air conditioners, a refrigerator in your kitchen or central air conditioning is not something where "close enough" works.

Things must be a close to perfect as possible. If they aren't, the unit will likely work for a while but will have an early death.

Air conditioning is something you should NEVER, EVER hire the lowest bidder on.


You know those cheap, single hose charge kits they sell for cars? In my opinion all they do is make the system work for a short time and in the end make a small problem 10 times worse. They should be illegal.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

So tell me what I am getting for my money? What does paying for all that overhead get me? BTW in my example I did include the $$$ for the copper lineset. 

I respect the fact that this is a technical trade. It requires education and training to be good at it - but so does other trades.... e.g. automotive, information technology etc... 


Also, just because I buy from a local contractor doesn't mean I am not going to get hack job. In fact, a few years back I did go this route (again, I prefer to support local businesses). Bought a system from a large HVAC company in my area. 

It was obvious their only direct involvement in the install was to deliver the equipment then sub out the labor. The licensed HVAC tech I got didn't even recover the refrigerant, he just snipped the lineset and let it vent. Didn't nitrogen flow when brazing etc etc....

Sorry, really didn't mean to kick off a flame war. Regardless, what I said is still true. You must consider how much risk you want to assume given the conditions of the HVAC market.


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

sidejobjoe said:


> So tell me what I am getting for my money? What does paying for all that overhead get me? BTW in my example I did include the $$$ for the copper lineset.
> 
> I respect the fact that this is a technical trade. It requires education and training to be good at it - but so does other trades.... e.g. automotive, information technology etc...
> 
> ...


Venting refrigerant into the atmosphere is an EPA violation and should be handled as such assuming you're in the US.


I don't know anything about overhead, I'm not a contractor.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

cj133 said:


> Venting refrigerant into the atmosphere is an EPA violation and should be handled as such assuming you're in the US.
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about overhead, I'm not a contractor.


Yeah, that was my point. He was a licensed pro and just snipped the lines.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Just because one "Pro" was not professional does not mean they all are not. If you had videotaped it and turned him in he would have been in BIG trouble. It is hard to find really good companies but if you have neighbors or friends etc who can recommend one then that is the best way.

The market regulates itself with the prices the hackers install units for. My competition can hack in units $1000-1500 less because they do not use Journeymen and sell no name Chineez knockoff units or only builders grade units. Therefore the market for the el cheapo cheapest price only exists and those people looking for it find it. Then there are the people who want better units and Pros and they find me.

The government is not going to have the Gestapo to check licenses on every job and whether Freon is being recovered and anyone who believes every job is going to be done Professionally is sadly mistaken and the Government is not going to get involved.

Just a matter of finding the right company to do biz with it is what matters. Businesses have to buy $30,000-$50,000 vans and lots of expensive tools to do the job and somebody has to pay for that. There is not a huge profit in repairs and my company makes most of it's revenue from installs.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

yuri said:


> Just because one "Pro" was not professional does not mean they all are not.


Agreed.... in fact most would not do this. 

I also have to say just because one DIY did a hack job doesn't mean they all will. 
I dare say the majority of DIY's will do a good job because it is their property. An astute DIY who really does his homework can do a good job. My only advice is leave the lineset brazing and startup to a pro. And you will also have to pay a tech for refrigerant recovery.

You will have to spend about the same money on tools to do it right as to pay a pro anyways (plus higher skill and technical knowledge is required to startup a system and adjust the refrigerant levels).


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

sidejobjoe said:


> Agreed.... in fact most would not do this.
> 
> I also have to say just because one DIY did a hack job doesn't mean they all will.
> I dare say the majority of DIY's will do a good job because it is their property. An astute DIY who really does his homework can do a good job. My only advice is leave the lineset brazing and startup to a pro. And you will also have to pay a tech for refrigerant recovery.
> ...


If a DIYer is willing to spend $1500+ on equipment and take the time to learn how, then I'm all for it.

I'm using that cost because so far that's what I've spent on tools for refrigeration.


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## HARRY304E (Nov 18, 2011)

Funny how tradesmen are not worth the money, Put you'll pay a dentist $2,000 to perform a root canal...:laughing:

All the dentist is doing is drilling a hole in your tooth to let the pressure out and fill it back in 45 minutes...:whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Nov 18, 2011)

sidejobjoe said:


> I am in the same boat. I got a couple of quotes for my replacement system and they were about double what I could get the very same equipment for from an internet retailer.
> 
> The deal is, I am the guy that isn't el cheapo. I am willing to pay a premium to have high quality local service. e.g. I go to mom and pop hardware stores because they know what they are talking about - even though I know I am paying more. I go to local camera/scuba/etc stores to buy gear even though I know I am paying more.
> 
> ...





sidejobjoe said:


> Maybe someday the FTC will take a look at business practices and clean them up but in the mean time this is decision making process and risks homeowners are left to consider.


So you want government price control so that no one can make a living?





sidejobjoe said:


> But in my case it is $4000 for gear + $4500 on top for install/markup. This is not reasonable. HVAC guys can talk about overhead costs all they want but if this kind of markup is required to make a reasonable profit margin (10%-20%) something is seriously wrong with the economics of this industry.


In this case you've found an HVAC guy that knows what his business costs are and has a plan to stay in business during the next downturn in the economy, he knows that a new truck fully stocked will cost him $60,000, he pays his men well so they can own their own homes and not live in public housing, he also pays his men well enough so that they will have a good retirement. Eccct




sidejobjoe said:


> So you are assuming risk. If you use my example, if I pay for the gear myself and have a HVAC licensed side jobber install it for me, it will cost me about $150 per hour for labor... depending on the size of course, most residential swap outs will take 8 hours or less.
> 
> $1200 for labor
> $4000 for equipment
> ...


So in this case you've found an HVAC guy who does not know his costs and pays his men poorly, he has no plan, he has no money saved at all because he does not charge enough to pay all the costs of doing business he will be out of business soon enough, he will go bankrupt costing us the consumer higher bank,insurance, fees, and more taxes to cover the costs of the banks writing off his debts, then he will open up in a new name and do the same thing costing us even more.




sidejobjoe said:


> Ordinarily in free market competition, this would resolve itself by having alot of consolidation of businesses to reduce overhead costs. Instead, I have 60 (at last count) independent HVAC companies in my metro area. IMO, this is due to barriers to provide trade protection.


Good idea have only one HVAC company,and watch that $8,000 HVAC job shoot up to $28,000 because there will be no other choice.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> So you are assuming risk. If you use my example, if I pay for the gear myself and have a HVAC licensed side jobber install it for me, it will cost me about $150 per hour for labor... depending on the size of course, most residential swap outs will take 8 hours or less.
> 
> Yep, most times a residential air handler and condenser can be hacked in in 8 hours or less.
> 
> ...


We are already under the FTC rules. We may not gouge. Which means that if I charge a 55 year or older person 3500 for labor, I must charge eveyone else the same for the same labor hours. If I charge a 55 year or older person 175 mark up, I must charge a 35 year old 175% mark up.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

The $500 in my example was to pay for the evap coil. There is no labor warranty or if there is, it rarely extends beyond 1 year - so you will be paying whatever for that (I have no idea what the rates are to replace an evap coil). 

Again, how much risk do you want to assume and how much do you want to pay for and cover? Most of the time these units run fine for years (even Goodmans).

If you want the most hassle free experience possible and you have little to-no DIY skills, then pay double for the peace of mind.... esp if you are going be living in your house for the 10 year (typical) warranty period.

For me, I assume the risk for $3000+.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> The $500 in my example was to pay for the evap coil. There is no labor warranty or if there is, it rarely extends beyond 1 year - so you will be paying whatever for that (I have no idea what the rates are to replace an evap coil).
> 
> Again, how much risk do you want to assume and how much do you want to pay for and cover? Most of the time these units run fine for years (even Goodmans).
> 
> ...


While I myself don't do it. Thee are many companies that include a 5 or 10 year labor warranty in the mark up of the equipment.

Personally, I don't care if you install the whole system your self.


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## evapman (Mar 25, 2007)

bobelectric said:


> $1850.




$1849.00 :thumbup:


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Well, I think I have a better idea as to how much the labor costs are to install this split HVAC AC system .... I just had it done a couple of days ago.

The job was to replace a 12 year old Trane 3.5 Ton system with a new 4.0 Ton Rheem 14AJM-49A01 condensing unit and a 4 Ton Rheem RBHP-24J11SH4 air handler. The combined system is 15 SEER.

The air handler is mounted from the ceiling in the garage. The labor also included hooking up the exsisting hot water heater lines from an exsisting Heat Recovery Unit (HRU) to the new condensing unit.

I checked what the price would be for both the Rheem condensing unit and the air handler, along with a 10kw heat strip for the air handler (delivered to my house in Florida from Ingram's Water and Air Equipment), and the cost would be $2,656 when ordered on the internet.

http://ingramswaterandair.com/product_info.php?products_id=17269{42}95

My total cost with parts and labor for this job was $4,500.


Since I am pretty sure my contractor would pay about the same for this equipment, it looks like the labor charge was about $1,800.

BTW ... It took 2 guys about 8 hours each to complete the removal and install.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

BTW ... The contractor did have to pay a few bucks for a Mechanical Permit from the county prior to the install. 

In fact, a county inspector will be at my house in a couple of days to inspect the job and make sure it meets code.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Well, I think I have a better idea as to how much the labor costs are to install this split HVAC AC system .... I just had it done a couple of days ago.
> 
> The job was to replace a 12 year old Trane 3.5 Ton system with a new 4.0 Ton Rheem 14AJM-49A01 condensing unit and a 4 Ton Rheem RBHP-24J11SH4 air handler. The combined system is 15 SEER.
> 
> ...


Labor may have been more or less. Your contractor didn't pay near that same price. Your contractor put mark up on the price he paid for the equipment, and materials.

Did your contractor check the static pressure of the system before and after installing the new air handler?


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Did your contractor check the static pressure of the system before and after installing the new air handler?


I don't have a clue

All I know is that the new system blows more air from all the vents than the old system.

BTW ... the house is 2,300 sq ft single story


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

More air is not necessarily good. In your climate you want less air over the coil so it runs colder and removes more moisture. My guess is he left it at full blast like it comes from the factory. A Pro would have adjusted the fan speed AND freon level/superheat/sub cooling to get maximum moisture removal and performance.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> I don't have a clue
> 
> All I know is that the new system blows more air from all the vents than the old system.
> 
> BTW ... the house is 2,300 sq ft single story


Even in your area, 4 tons sounds over sized. What complaint did you have that your contractor increased size.


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

yuri said:


> More air is not necessarily good. In your climate you want less air over the coil so it runs colder and removes more moisture. My guess is he left it at full blast like it comes from the factory. A Pro would have adjusted the fan speed AND freon level/superheat/sub cooling to get maximum moisture removal and performance.


Freon?
What's Freon?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

A generic name for refrigerant, developed by DuPont I believe.:yes:


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

yuri said:


> A generic name for refrigerant, developed by DuPont I believe.:yes:


I believe it's a brand name for Dupont's CFC refrigerants.
If I recall R134A is Suva for example.


My refrigerant of choice is shown on my Avatar. :thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

there are other names like Genetron etc but we all use Freon as the public understands it.


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

yuri said:


> there are other names like Genetron etc but we all use Freon as the public understands it.



Understood, however I prefer to use "gas" or "refrigerant".
But I don't have to deal with the public.


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

yuri said:


> More air is not necessarily good. In your climate you want less air over the coil so it runs colder and removes more moisture. My guess is he left it at full blast like it comes from the factory. A Pro would have adjusted the fan speed AND freon level/superheat/sub cooling to get maximum moisture removal and performance.


So hacks only make $1000 a day? Where can I sign up?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

wheelsup said:


> So hacks only make $1000 a day? Where can I sign up?


Big difference between grossing a 1000 bucks and making a 1000 bucks.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Like I said before, I can get on the internet and buy the exact same condensing unit and air handler for *$2,656* (delivered).

So, if I can buy it for that price, my HVAC contractor can also buy it for that price (or less).

Now, I was charged *$4,500* for this job ... Basic 3rd grade arithmetic tells me that leaves the HVAC contractor at least *$1,844* (before paying the help).

Again, it took these 2 guys a total of 8 hrs each to complete the job.

What do you think the HVAC company actually paid these 2 guys for there 8 hours of work that day here in Florida? .... My guess is about $20 per hour for each of them.
_________________________________

I am not complaining at all ... All I am saying is that I think I got a fair price, and there is no doubt in my military mind that everyone involved in this deal (the 2 workers and the company) did well for a 1 day job.
_________________________________


BTW .... I also got quotes from some other companies that were between $500 - $900 higher than what I paid (same exact condensing unit and air handler).


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

beenthere said:


> Big difference between grossing a 1000 bucks and making a 1000 bucks.


Sure. The median income in the US is roughly $1050 a _week, gross.

_Net, quite a bit less.

That is weekly gross income...not daily.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Like I said before, I can get on the internet and buy the exact same condensing unit and air handler for *$2,656* (delivered).
> 
> So, if I can buy it for that price, my HVAC contractor can also buy it for that price (or less).
> 
> ...


The contractor probably paid a lot less then that online retail price you saw.

The question is, would the higher priced companies have done the job better, and actually tested the unit after installation.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

wheelsup said:


> Sure. The median income in the US is roughly $1050 a _week, gross.
> 
> _Net, quite a bit less.
> 
> That is weekly gross income...not daily.


And a company grossing 1000 dollars a day on labor, is not making much money, if any at times.


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

beenthere said:


> And a company grossing 1000 dollars a day on labor, is not making much money, if any at times.


That # is _per employee

_I would bet the employees aren't the ones making the money here though, it's the owners. Good for them but the way the EPA and local laws are set up, the public is completely beholden to "the system".

This place is great because it's about the only place on the internet you can find people willing to help the consumer in this field :thumbsup:.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

wheelsup said:


> That # is _per employee
> 
> _I would bet the employees aren't the ones making the money here though, it's the owners. Good for them but the way the EPA and local laws are set up, the public is completely beholden to "the system".
> 
> This place is great because it's about the only place on the internet you can find people willing to help the consumer in this field :thumbsup:.


No, the employee's are the ones that want paid for 40 hours even when there isn't 40 hours of work. So when there is work, prices have to be higher to cover the slow times. Then of course, they want paid holidays, and paid vacation days. Along with wanting a van to drive to and from home in.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

beenthere said:


> The question is, would the higher priced companies have done the job better, and actually tested the unit after installation.


I have no idea ... I think the company I had do the job did ok ... Everything works great, it keeps the house nice and cool and I got a 1 year labor warranty plus a 2 year maint. warranty (they will check on the unit every 6 month for that 2 year period at no cost).

I don't think the company I had install the unit is bad ... They are a recommended installer as per the Rheem website, and have been in business here for quite a few years here in the local area, have good reviews, and are registered with the BBB with no negative complaints.
_______________________________

Someone said a 4 ton unit here in SW Florida (south of Tampa) is too big for my 2,300 sq ft house ... I ain't buying that at all.

In fact every company I called agreed that a 4 ton unit is sized about right for this house that was built in 2002.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> I have no idea ... I think the company I had do the job did ok ... Everything works great, it keeps the house nice and cool and I got a 1 year labor warranty plus a 2 year maint. warranty (they will check on the unit every 6 month for that 2 year period at no cost).
> 
> I don't think the company I had install the unit is bad ... They are a recommended installer as per the Rheem website, and have been in business here for quite a few years here in the local area, have good reviews, and are registered with the BBB with no negative complaints.
> _______________________________
> ...


What temp do you keep the thermostat set at, and what indoor humidity level does it maintain.


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

Looking up some reading material on profit margin of HVAC contracts it seems the norm is between 5%-10%. Profit on this job probably ranged from $225-450, which certainly doesn't seem high for all the risks taken. Certainly puts it back more in perspective.


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

beenthere said:


> What temp do you keep the thermostat set at, and what indoor humidity level does it maintain.


In the summer (right now), I set the AC at 80 degrees.

I don't have a way to check the humidity, but it feels low, and when the AC is running, I get a fast steady drip of water out of the drain (so it's obviously removing humidity).

Again, not humid at all in the house ... feels great!
_____________________________

Here is a photo of the house ...


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

Flt_Simulation said:


> In the summer (right now), I set the AC at 80 degrees.
> 
> I don't have a way to check the humidity, but it feels low, and when the AC is running, I get a fast steady drip of water out of the drain (so it's obviously removing humidity).
> 
> ...


3 car garage, newish 'vette in the driveway...they saw you coming!! 

Do you fly UH-60's?


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

wheelsup said:


> Do you fly UH-60's?


 Used to


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Used to


I fly with a couple of ex-army guys, I work for a 121 carrier


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

wheelsup said:


> I fly with a couple of ex-army guys, I work for a 121 carrier


That's great!

I flew for about 23 years and then retired. Retired from the Army Reserves and Fed Civil Service as an instructor pilot (GS-13).

I was lucky enough awhile back to get some time in this sweetheart: This was on a trip from Ft Myers, FL to Oklahoma City and return:

CJ3 ... at FL 450!


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

And a photo of "Big Al" on the RR tracks in East St Louis (when he was VP)

I am on the far right ...


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## sammy37 (Dec 9, 2008)

Did the old unit cool the house? I dont see any reason for the upsize to 4 tons, especially running at your set temp of 80. If I lived in a humid state, I would want the smallest unit I could get by with for long run times and good humidity removal.

The contractor that told you that you need 4 tons because your house was built in 02, was very wrong. Especially if he couldnt even be bothered to perform a load calc.


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## wheelsup (May 4, 2012)

Flt_Simulation said:


> That's great!
> 
> I flew for about 23 years and then retired. Retired from the Army Reserves and Fed Civil Service as an instructor pilot (GS-13).
> 
> ...


I just love that new airplane smell. We are getting new A320's delivered and you can just tell when you walk in the door! Never flew a small jet like that, smallest one I flew was the CRJ at the commuters. Personally, I liked flying it a lot more than the bigger planes.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You should be getting a steady stream of water out the drain in your climate. However the job does get done and if you are happy and comfy I would not worry about it.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Flt_Simulation said:


> My total cost with parts and labor for this job was $4,500.
> 
> 
> Since I am pretty sure my contractor would pay about the same for this equipment, it looks like the labor charge was about $1,800.
> ...


Wow, that is a great price..... Around where I live (midwest) the best price I've got is about $8500 installed for a 5 ton system (Goodman).....and it is a simpler job than yours (not hanging from a ceiling  )


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## sammy37 (Dec 9, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> Wow, that is a great price..... Around where I live (midwest) the best price I've got is about $8500 installed for a 5 ton system (Goodman).....and it is a simpler job than yours (not hanging from a ceiling  )


We havent seen pics of the job. Pics tell a lot, like the old saying, "get what you pay for."


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

sammy37 said:


> We havent seen pics of the job. Pics tell a lot, like the old saying, "get what you pay for."


Well, maybe I got a crap job since I got a reasonable price ... is that what your saying?

All I can say is that it cools very good and I found this installer on the Rheem webpage as a 'recommended installer'.


I guess had a gone with an installer that would have stuck it to me and then broke it off ... I would have been better off?

Sorry, but the ol' saying "You get what you pay for" don't always work in some of the trades like AC repair.

But, I guess you know better than I do, so you keep believing that.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Time will time. 

Hope it works fine for many years to come.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Recommended installer just means he pays some $$ per month to Rheem to use the Rheem "preferred dealer" name and gets the advertising benefit. 

The price does sound very low as my company does an AC only for that price but there may be the exceptions and not everyone does bad work. Depends how competitive your local market is etc etc.


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## sammy37 (Dec 9, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Well, maybe I got a crap job since I got a reasonable price ... is that what your saying?
> 
> All I can say is that it cools very good and I found this installer on the Rheem webpage as a 'recommended installer'.
> 
> ...


Actually, "get what you pay for," is very big in the a/c trade. Check some wall of shame pics at other sites.
And yes, like beenthere says, I hope it works for many years also:thumbsup:


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Well, I don't think the price is real low ... I can buy the condenser unit and the air handler for $2,400. However, I am betting that they paid less than what I could buy it for.

Anyway, I was charged $4,500 total for the job.

After the company paid for the units, that leaves $2,100 ($4,500 - $2,400) for the 16 hours work that was performed (2 guys for 8 hours each).

$2,100 divided by 16 hours work = $131 per hour.
________________________________________

My bet is that the company paid those 2 guys about $25 per hour (max) to work for them.

$25 x 16 Hours = $400
________________________________________

That puts $1,700 in the pocket of the company after they pay the 2 guys.


$1,700 bucks ... I think that is more than a fair profit to the company for a 1 day job.

Don't you?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Well, I don't think the price is real low ... I can buy the condenser unit and the air handler for $2,400. However, I am betting that they paid less than what I could buy it for.
> 
> Anyway, I was charged $4,500 total for the job.
> 
> ...


While they may only be paid 25 bucks an hour. But it cost the company closer to 50 bucks an hour for them to work. Perhaps a bit more, depending on the bennies they receive.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

And Again, like I said in an earlier post......

There is more to a job than 2 bubba's showing up for 8 hours.

Was there someone to drive to your house and give you a quote? 
Did he take an hour or two to do the manual j,d,s ?
Did the equipment you selected fall from the sky and land in the back of their truck on the way to your house?

Lets see some PICS!!!!


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## Flt_Simulation (Feb 14, 2009)

Sure ... I can get some photos if it will make everyone here happy.

You know, the subject of this whole thread I started was called ... *Labor cost only to replace a split system AC unit ?*

All I was asking was what might be a fair labor charge to replace a damned AC unit ... but for some reason, this thread has turned into a whole lot more than that.

This ain't rocket science ... I bet I can get on the Corvette Forum and ask what most guys are paying to have a set of headers installed on there C6 Corvette, and I can get a really good idea as to what I might expect to pay anywhere here in the US ... but some of you folks here in this forum are just trying to make this whole thing a lot more complicated than it really is.

And I think I was very specific in my original post when I said that all I was needing was the simple removal and replacement of a 4.0 ton split AC unit (with no additional duct work), which includes the outside condenser unit and the inside air handler (that hangs from the garage ceiling) ... like so many split systems they use here in Florida.

Just a simple idea as to what to expect in price.
_______________________________

Now I tell everybody here that I paid the contractor $4,500 for this 1 day project, and some folks here think I should have paid more ... Well, to be honest, I think should have paid less.

I don't think I am going to be involved anymore with this thread I started.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Flt_Simulation said:


> Sure ... I can get some photos if it will make everyone here happy.
> 
> You know, the subject of this whole thread I started was called ... *Labor cost only to replace a split system AC unit ?*
> 
> ...



Pricing questions never go over well here, and that is why it is frond upon.

But pricing for people to come out and do something at your house is a very area specific thing. Doesn't matter about what prices you can get for a header install on your vette.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Pricing questions never go over well here, and that is why it is frond upon.
> 
> But pricing for people to come out and do something at your house is a very area specific thing. Doesn't matter about what prices you can get for a header install on your vette.


X2

This is all custom work. There are never 2 installs alike even on the same floorplans.

Reminds me of a non-customer who even when I pointed out her choke-point which killed her unit.....Bubba said it was fine.....or in your case Manuel....


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

These threads about pricing NEVER turn out well but are entertaining. It is like you take your eggs and bacon to the restaurant and have them cook a meal for you and expect to pay them $2.00 instead of the normal rate for a breakfast because you THINK you know what you should pay. You don't know what it costs to operate a restaurant but you sure know what the eggs and bacon cost and you get pizzzed. No different with our biz. Business taxes, workers comp premiums, insurance, vans, tools etc plus a dozen other costs but what right does anyone have to say what is fair? Some have more overhead than Bubba's pickup out of his garage operation but you have the right to choose whatever quality contractor and you get what you pay for most of the time in quality. Bubba can't afford me so I work for the highest bidder and provide excellent quality. He can afford kids straight out of school or "foreign South of the Border" talent. You get what you pay for. There is no such thing as "Fair" as that is an opinion and like what you sit on the commode with and use, everyone has one.:yes:


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Flt_Simulation said:


> $2,100 divided by 16 hours work = $131 per hour.
> ________________________________________
> 
> My bet is that the company paid those 2 guys about $25 per hour (max) to work for them.
> ...


I am envious of your price . The math is even uglier in my quotes. 

Using the 2 guys example in my case, for a total of 16 hours of work, it comes to ~$280 per hour. 

As another poster pointed out, if those guys are making $25 per hour their cost is at least $50 per hour due to work comp, taxes (e.g. other half of social security), insurance etc..... plus they are not running at 100% utilization rate... I would hope they are running 70%+ (no idea though). 

So say I give $80/hr for labor..... that leaves $200/hr in the pockets of the company for additional "overhead" and profit so about $3200 - for a day job. 


Having said all of that, there is no such thing as a "fair" price... capitalism is supposed to decide that by consumer choice and competition. The problem is there are a lot of regulations and trade protection laws that limit consumer choice. This is why I suspect there are SOOOO many small HVAC companies around instead of fewer medium to large companies (count the number of different HVAC vans driving down the highway, you will be amazed). 

There is no incentive for consolidation of businesses (thus reducing overhead costs) in the market.....so it doesn't happen.


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

yuri said:


> These threads about pricing NEVER turn out well but are entertaining. It is like you take your eggs and bacon to the restaurant and have them cook a meal for you and expect to pay them $2.00 instead of the normal rate for a breakfast because you THINK you know what you should pay. You don't know what it costs to operate a restaurant but you sure know what the eggs and bacon cost and you get pizzzed. No different with our biz. Business taxes, workers comp premiums, insurance, vans, tools etc plus a dozen other costs but what right does anyone have to say what is fair? Some have more overhead than Bubba's pickup out of his garage operation but you have the right to choose whatever quality contractor and you get what you pay for most of the time in quality. Bubba can't afford me so I work for the highest bidder and provide excellent quality. He can afford kids straight out of school or "foreign South of the Border" talent. You get what you pay for. There is no such thing as "Fair" as that is an opinion and like what you sit on the commode with and use, everyone has one.:yes:



I believe that's the reason we are never allowed to talk pricing on heatinghelp.com. It does nothing but start arguments and it's not fair to the contractors so all in all it's a lose lose situation.


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## sktn77a (May 11, 2009)

Flt_Simulation said:


> oh well ... time to get the KY out!


Ain't that the truth! Hopefully, it will work out well for you.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

sidejobjoe said:


> I am envious of your price .
> Having said all of that, there is no such thing as a "fair" price... capitalism is supposed to decide that by consumer choice and competition. The problem is there are a lot of regulations and trade protection laws that limit consumer choice. This is why I suspect there are SOOOO many small HVAC companies around instead of fewer medium to large companies (count the number of different HVAC vans driving down the highway, you will be amazed).
> 
> There is no incentive for consolidation of businesses (thus reducing overhead costs) in the market.....so it doesn't happen.


Not even close.

The reason for all the companies is you cannot franchise this business, because it is all Custom work. It takes trained techs and installers and salesmen to do the job right.

What causes the pricing flairups is people that "get a good price" keeping "vent the refrigerant - Charlie " and "Hack-saw sam" in business, while those of us who go to school, take pride in their work, etc.....


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## cj133 (May 16, 2011)

Technow said:


> Not even close.
> 
> The reason for all the companies is you cannot franchise this business, because it is all Custom work. It takes trained techs and installers and salesmen to do the job right.
> 
> What causes the pricing flairups is people that "get a good price" keeping "vent the refrigerant - Charlie " and "Hack-saw sam" in business, while those of us who go to school, take pride in their work, etc.....


And then there are the guys that go to school, take pride in their work, struggle to make ends meet even though they seem to charge a lot, and then come on a public forum and help others for free in their spare time only to be insulted.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't really find it insulting and if Beenthere who is a Mod did then the threads would die quick. It can be useful for Joe Public not necessarily the OP to read these threads and find out why pricing is what it is. Our OP got his unit slammed in out of a box, turned on and then they left it probably w/o doing the proper adjustments. It should stream water out his drain in Florida not drip so likely the fan is going way too fast. If he paid more then the odds are better it would have been setup properly.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> I am envious of your price . The math is even uglier in my quotes.
> 
> Using the 2 guys example in my case, for a total of 16 hours of work, it comes to ~$280 per hour.
> 
> ...



There are so many HVAC businesses because so many people think that they can make a killing by just charging 3500 to 4500 bucks for a swap out. Which is also the reason so many of the companies fail. They think that they will do 5 swap outs a week, once word of their cheap price gets around. But they don't get to do 5 swap outs a week every week, and end up with no reserve money for the slow times. And end up not being able to afford to do warranty work. 

Consolidate business? You mean have 6 companies merge together, and have more over head. Because you would now have 6 owners, and more secretaries.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The reason there are so many small businesses and hackers out there is:

1) Anyone with a garage at his house and a pickup truck and his wife answering the phone and pays $100 at city hall can be in biz by noon.

2) Unlike installing furnaces you do not have to have a legal license to install ACs. You do not need to be a Red Seal Journeyman Refrigeration tech like myself. Any dude with a basic buy Freon license which is a simple 4 hour course with multiple guess questions can get one and be in biz by noon.

3) Bubba sees huge $$ signs in his eyes and gets started. Then he finds out in 6 months that the other Bubbas are undercutting his jobs $50 each and pretty soon you have what my Boss calls " a race to the bottom" to see who can do it the cheapest. By then none of them are really making any good $$. Like Beenthere said in slow times they go out of biz and are even more ruthless with price chopping. The well established companies can weather the slow times and have loyal customers for a reason.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

yuri said:


> and have loyal customers for a reason.


That line sums it up.


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