# New Roof, Leaks, No Flashing....HELP!



## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Sorry,,I had to break that up a bit.

Hello everyone and please bare with me, this is my 1st post. Very LONG story short we just had a new roof put on our home in Florida end of June 2012 (house built in 1977) old roof taken off (bought house in 91' never replaced roof sense we've been in it) per the contract NEW everything was to be installed, flashing, vents, trim, shingles, rotten wood replaced, etc. 

Had a contract written up by the roofer, looked into him and his work which he was licensed and insured, had a permit pulled so the city would come out and inspect throughout the job...thought we did it all right. Two weeks after the new roof was put on we had some heavy rains and our new roof leaked down our fireplace wall and in the corner of our living room where the fireplace wall and other corner of wall meet. 

It was like a little stream going down the wall. Called the contractor/roofer right away and he came out the next day...put some "black stuff" all around our chimney where the roof and chimney meet. Rained later in the week not as bad but still leaked, called him back and he then states the chimney needs to be caulked and joints cause water is getting in that way. Of course we paid $100 + for a guy to come out and do that...fast forward when hurricane Sandy came through...Major wind and hard rains... water POURED down our living room wall where the corner of the wall same spot along with water coming down in spots on our fireplace wall. 

Very open with my roofer and stated that I am sick cause we spent ALOT of $$$$ money for new roof, did it all "right" and then found out AFTER it is all done.... THERE IS NO FLASHING AROUND THE CHIMNEY!!! BUT was later informed by my roofer/contractor that he was told by his ROOFING CREW that there was no flashing around the chimney when pulling they pulled off the OLD ROOF (which old roof back in the day like 10 yrs ago did leak in that area...had a guy come out and he did some kinda of "patch/black sticky stuff, etc" and it never leaked again.)

And no flashing was put in...BUT I looked at my permit and under the box labeled "flashing" it's signed off on as "inspected" BUT we DO NOT HAVING FLASHING around our chimney and I guess never did. I'm now being told that was not part of the original contract (to add flashing to the chimney) and to have the stone removed on our chimney and to have flashing added it can be done for $500 plus the cost to have a mason come out and re-do the stones/rocks to put back on the chimney.

I'm in shock, when the roofer came out to give an est. on the job and looked over our roof and then we signed the contract to have work done (by the way he gave me a warranty on work and roof for 7 years) HOWEVER, he states the flashing is not part of the warranty cause he was not aware till they got into the job that there was no flashing orig on the chimney ( We had NO CLUE TOO, we are not roofers)??? So, my question is this? As a roofer and as a city official who came out and "inspected" and then being told "you never had flashing around your chimney and we are not responsible for adding flashing" and now I have a $7,000+ new roof that leaks WORSE than ever...do I have any leg to stand on or am I screwed???

PS: My husband went up in the attic with the roof contractor and when they both were in the attic and one of his workers was on the roof my husband pointed out a pc. of rotten wood that they BOTH noticed when someone was walking on the roof with weight and my husband stated "Hey that pc of wood is rotten and did not get replaced!" It was also "brushed under the rug" as being said...Oh, that's nothing to worry about


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

It was your contractors responsibility to determine what components you have on your roof and what is missing.Its also his responsibility to inform you of these findings and address them and come up with a workable solution.

Sounds to me like the "Crew" is taking the fall.Someone other than the crew should have been aware of what is there and what is not there on your roof and components.

How do these contractors get jobs without actually inspecting the roofs they are giving estimates on ? How are they able to sign contracts without knowing all aspects of the roofs they are preparing to do.Sheeesh.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Someone other than the crew should have been aware of what is there and what is not there on your roof and components.
> 
> How do these contractors get jobs without actually inspecting the roofs they are giving estimates on ? How are they able to sign contracts without knowing all aspects of the roofs they are preparing to do.Sheeesh.


First thank you for breaking up my post so it's eaiser to read...told you it was my 1st post...LOL!

I agree with you and the sad thing is this, the contractor came out "2" times and looked at my roof and got up on the roof both times. I just got off the phone with him and asked "WHY did the crew not bring it to your attention that there was no flashing around the chimney?" I was then told that in all the roofing jobs they have ever done they never had run into a roof job where flashing was not already there. And that his crew must have figured that it was fine without it???

Now, I'm no roofer and don't know much when it comes to this but if the house was built in 1977 and lets say at that time you did not have to have flashing but all houses you've done from the time you are in business they all have had flashing....would that make you call your boss and say something?

I was told that if it would have been addressed at the time (by his crew)then he would of offered the solution and that would of been $500 to add the flashing. But if I look at the contract there is no mention of chimney flashing so he is offering to do it now for $500. Is that normal?


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

IMO the difference between a good contractor and a not so good contractor is 
knowing all the components associated with the service you provide.Since majority of components of a roof system has the word "Flashing"associated with it that is a gimme so to speak,,so not checking the Counter Flashing is irresponsible and IMO he is lying to you.

I can kinda understand from your contractors view about not ever seeing a chimney without flashing,,,that is if he has been in business for a VERY SHORT PERIOD.Just when you think you have seen everything something new pops up.BUT I have seen sooooooo many chimneys with no flashing,walls with no flashing and lots of other goofy things that these are the things I check right from the start.

You ask any roofer/contractor what they look for when they look at a chimney and somewhere within the first 4 replies is going to be flashing,,,if not the first.

The crew is not to blame even though I would have a hard time keeping a crew that would not notice and respond to one of the most entry level fundamentals of roofing that flashing is.

The proper protocol for running jnto this problem during project commencement is to STOP !!! 
1.Call the contractor.
2.Contractor calls and meets homeowner.
3.Homeowner makes a decision. 
4.Project continues.,,It should have never made it to that point but if it had that's the way it should have played out.

The customer is relying on the contractor to know what needs to be replaced or added.These details should be in writing kn their contract.The homeowner should not have to wonder if they have all the components to complete a functioning roof system once its complete.

They should not have to play games such as "The Blame Game" or "Lets have a stupid homeowner for $500 Alex". 

On this workmanship warranty does it show an exclusion for the chimney flashing eliminating it from the warranty ?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Any real roofer knows every chimmney needs flashing.
If there's a stone chimmney I would have walked straight to it to see how hard it was going to be to flash it.
The flashing on a chimmney is not hidden, from the ground you should be able to see there's no flashing.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree Joe,,I find it alarming that this homeowner lives in Florida which has some of the most strict building code laws and enforcement has no flashing on her chimney.

What is equally disturbing is the county inspector in which she lives signed off on the permit thus passing the final inspection.

When I was there my roofs were inspected as many as 3 times in 3 phases.I was present during my inspections and can say everything was inspected according to existing and revised FBC code requirements.

I myself would call the Building Department and have the supervisor of that inspector come out for a re-inspection.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Your contractor is responsible to not only fix the leak but to fix any interior damage as a result of the leak.

If he refuses you will have to get it fixed on your dime and take the contractor to court.

Even if the city signed it off the contractor is still the responsible party, the contractor knows flashing is required and thats the bottom line.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

The roofer may have came from CA and was told flashing causes cancer.


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

*legal forum*

I would be posting this next in a legal forum, include copy of contract. Snap a photo of the rotten wood. The inspector needs to serve some time in jail.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> I myself would call the Building Department and have the supervisor of that inspector come out for a re-inspection.


Thought about that too BUT in the end lets say they are like "YES, we messed up and this roof was passed w/o flashing on the chimney" would that help me or hurt me? Meaning IF the roofer is saying YES, I can make this right for $500 and then the inspector says "you have to get this fixed now..." I'm just pressed for the money now and can't afford to open another can of worms... Do I have any right to say "hey that's why I had a permit and inspections done so this would not happen...YOU make them fix it and fix it at no charge!"


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

AndyWRS said:


> Even if the city signed it off the contractor is still the responsible party, the contractor knows flashing is required and thats the bottom line.


I'm planning on uploading my contract so everyone can see what we signed and what we "thought" was being done. I appreciate your comment and was wondering...when you stated "bottom line contractors knows flashing is required." Do you think that with our house being the "weird one that had no flashing around the chimney" they could of noticed it and just thought "well it was fine before...and thought IF they did it the right way that would of been $ out of there pocket to make it right?" Then IF there was a problem we will get our $$$ later by charging them $500?? I just don't understand HOW and or WHY they just would not of done it when they were up there??? And how in the world it passed inspection....My contractor said when I asked that question "sometimes things just get overlooked, its no ones fault, things just happen sometime."


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Human nature says, yes things get over looked. No excues for a real roofer to have "over looked" this. 
An inspector can not "make" anyone fix it. What he could have done while it was being done was not pass it and done a stop order until it was done.
Now your in a tough place, he's going to look like a fool when you have to go to his boss. Oh well if no one says anything it's going to just happen to someone else. 
No way would I ever dare to go back and try and up charge a customer for work that I should have done in the first place!

One reason I pass on jobs when a customer wants to cheap out on a job.
If they want me to do a roof over, not use Storm and Ice on the bottom edge of the roof, no drip cap, reuse old vent flashings. I just refuse to do the job. Amazing how short there memory gets when it leaks of fails down the road.
We still have not seen a picture of this chimmney. I'd like to see how they did anything around a stone chimmney.


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## JWilliams (Sep 22, 2010)

i've been roofing for almost ten years. if i redoing a roof and if the chimney had no flashing you bet i'd be flashing around the chimney because I know its suppose to go there not wither the client is getting charged for it or not.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Flashing around a chimney is roofing 101. Even if it were missed, the contractor knows there is a chimney on the roof and has flashing built into his cost. We charge a specific amount per chimney, it is built into our job cost. 

The contract is not for them to install a leaking roof, you are contracting for a new roof covering and that means it is to be leak free for a period of whatever is on your contract. It should not be $ out of their pocket to flash it, if they missed it they are stupid. 

FYI, they did NOT miss it, they are trying to avoid the cost invovled with fixing it after the fact and any potential interior damange that resulted from it. They are trying to misdirect you into believing the responsibility for this leak lies anywhere but with them. And to make it even worse, it sounds like they further want to insult you by charging you to fix their own F UP.

Try to get the city to reinspect the roof and use that as leverage with the contractor. Even if they do not budge on fixing it, it will be a nail in thier coffin in court. They are foolish to let this go to court, they should fix it while the fixing is cheap.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Neeko said:


> things just get overlooked, its no ones fault, things just happen sometime."


Yeah right,.maybe like a member of a Nascar pit crew who forgets to tighten up 3 lug nuts before the driver gets back on the track ready to run @ 185mph.,.or the fireman who forgets to fill up the water tank on the fire engine before being called out to a 4 alarm fire. :laughing:


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

I can't wrap my mind around the idea they didn't know there wasn't any flashing, nor what to do about it. WTH????

This by Andy;
"Flashing around a chimney is roofing 101. Even if it were missed, the contractor knows there is a chimney on the roof and has flashing built into his cost. We charge a specific amount per chimney, it is built into our job cost." 

I mean,  what the heck? I can't do the roof without flashing. It has nothing to do with whether or not any was already there. WTH? It's probbaly bad anyway after 20 years of service. Replacement is roofing 101.:yes:

Legally, I had to sign soemthing to the effect that stated I had to perform to certain standards. Even if I had to take a loss to do so. I don't remember the wording, but I would have been in serious poo-poo if I had left it like that with our SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

*Pictures Inside and Out of Water Damage and NEW Roof & old chimney*



























































































Sorry it's taken so long but I finally have the pictures to show everyone. Comments are always welcome and to those who have already helped, I appreciate it.

I am SAD to say that we are still going around and around, I am now being told that the roofer will do the flashing at $X amount of dollars BUT I need to find someone to do the mason work of removing and reinstalling the rock after they are done doing the flashing. Which of course will cost money as well.

So, I now see why they DID NOT do the flashing...they had no way of removing the stone and then putting it back and therefore just figured and hoped I guess that it would not leak and I would have no idea. That's all I can think of. 

But as you can see THIS is what they saw when they came out to give me an est. of the new roof. So as a roofer if you came out and looked at my roof would you see with the blind eye that I never had flashing? I'm no roofer so I had NO idea we never had flashing around our chimney so I was not trying to pull a fast one...BUT as you can see now ALMOST A YEAR LATER the effects the water has caused INSIDE the home now too. 

I've stated everything you all have said to the roofer but bottom line he is saying he is not responsible for the flashing when it was installed and that for $X amount he will make it right.

So before I proceed with going to court any helpful advice would be appreciated! Thanks!

PS: These pictures of the roof are AFTER the NEW roof was installed...However, this is what they saw when they came to do the est. meaning the old roof was just a lot older but the shingles where as they are now up against the chimney like this... so when I asked IF you saw this when you came out to give an est. on my roof would your trained eye know I DID NOT have flashing????


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I just looked at your chimney and frankly it simply does not lend itself to be flashed properly. Not to mince words, it was built by an idiot. Any decent mason knows that he has to set counter flashing into the mortar joints of field stone, so they set their stone to make this possible. The guy that built this chimney was on Krak.

A stepped, cut in, counter-flashing of lead coated copper and new base flashing has to be installed to do this right. It will require cutting through rock with a diamond masonry blade. SInce you are in Florida, I would coat the chimney from the CF up with a good clear waterproofing like Hydrozo Enviroseal also after making sure all mortar is properly pointed.

We are not supposed to discuss prices, but it is my opinion that this chimney cannot be properly corrected for *anywhere near* 500 dollars. For that price all you are going to get is a schlock job with more roof cement.

You need a proper specification by a knowledgeable individual. Looks like this one is over the local building departments head.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

jagans said:


> Any decent mason knows that he has to set counter flashing into the mortar joints of field stone, so they set their stone to make this possible. The guy that built this chimney was on Krak.
> 
> A stepped, cut in, counter-flashing of lead coated copper and new base flashing has to be installed to do this right. It will require cutting through rock with a diamond masonry blade. SInce you are in Florida, I would coat the chimney from the CF up with a good clear waterproofing like Hydrozo Enviroseal also after making sure all mortar is properly pointed.
> 
> You need a proper specification by a knowledgeable individual. Looks like this one is over the local building departments head.


I agree and thank you so much for your detailed info on how the new mason job should be done. 

I can't believe it but got a call just last night from my roofer stating that he does not want to go to court and has agreed to do the job of flashing around the chimney without charging me. 

However, he stated he is not a mason so he will call around and get some contractors to come and look at the chimney to give a price. The kicker is he will do the job he was suppose to do (flashing) but stated, "You will need to pay for the mason work on the chimney to remove and add back the stone."  

Do you have any idea on what that would cost me and or is that his responsibility and just trying to pass the BIG $ stuff off to me? I'm glad he is not charging me to add the chimney flashing (which was to be done right when the roof was put on.)
BUT now there is damage as a result of the "new roof" leaking due to the job not being done correct inside my living room. Is his insurance responsible for this?

So confused as to how I should proceed.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

tinner666 said:


> I can't do the roof without flashing. It has nothing to do with whether or not any was already there. WTH?
> 
> Legally, I had to sign soemthing to the effect that stated I had to perform to certain standards. Even if I had to take a loss to do so. I don't remember the wording, but I would have been in serious poo-poo if I had left it like that with our SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies.


 
Thank you for your post. 

Was wondering when you said "Legally, I had to sign something to the effect that stated I had to perform to certain standards. Even if I had to take a loss to do so."

Do you mean as a certified roofer/contractor that was licensed? Reason I ask is I'm wondering if all specialist in their field have to sign something like this in each state they are licensed to work in?

What are SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies? 

Roofer now wants to do the flashing around the chimney, "however" I feel it’s in part that he just wants me to go away and not go to court. But it appears now there are a lot more issues that I myself do not know my rights on and maybe he does. (damage inside the home)

Hence, he just wants to finish the flashing around the chimney and make the leak stop, then I will shut up. :laughing:


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

OK something is missing here. You say you bought this house in 1991. 

Now considering the fact that there has been no flashing on this chimney since 1977, are you telling us that there have been no leaks around the chimney until the new roof was installed??? 

I would venture a guess that this chimney has been leaking from the day the first roof was installed, based on what we can see in the pictures, and I do not think it is fair to hit the roofer up for an existing condition. This being said, I, and all the other guys responding here would have been on that chimney like cat hair on a wool suit. I would have insisted on seeing the interior of your home and would have taken photos of existing conditions. I even require this of roofers in my specifications so there is no question of existing conditions down the road.

As far as the masonry work goes, the roofer really blew it here on his price, but I would not rub his nose in it. Splitting the cost seems reasonable to me. 

I would most definately demand that the mason use minimum 16 oz. lead coated copper counterflashing when he does his work. It is by far the best thing to use in this case as it can be reused the next time around. How he is going to install it is another story with this chimney, as it has no horizontal mortar joints anywhere. Saw cutting is the only answer. Maybe he can cut out the stone and use brick below the flashing where you cant see it, and stone from there up.


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## Neeko (Nov 19, 2012)

Per my orig. post I stated, 

"Did it all "right" and then found out AFTER it is all done.... THERE IS NO FLASHING AROUND THE CHIMNEY!!! BUT was later informed by my roofer/contractor that he was told by his ROOFING CREW that there was no flashing around the chimney when pulling they pulled off the OLD ROOF (which old roof back in the day like 10 yrs. ago *did* *leak* *in that area*...had a guy come out and he did some kind of "patch/black sticky stuff, etc." and it never leaked again.)"

House was bought in 1991 (current spouse purchased it) then I moved in around 1996. Roof leak happened around 2001 and right away we had a roof leak specialist come out and he fixed the problem that very same week when we noticed it. 

Current roofer that did our new roof has been in our home and that room (living room) prior to doing the job and saw for himself no water damage (no stain on ceiling/water marks down wall/etc.)

When I called him the 1st time to say it's "raining" inside our living room he came out the very next day and he saw for himself the wet cedar wall. I even took video to show him how bad it was. At that time there was no water marks on the ceiling. (Yet) 

But fast forward now almost a year and showers upon showers in Florida has caused this much damage. And half my disappointment has been "each time" it rains I watch water go down the wall in the corner and I grab towels, etc. to try and soak it up but know deep down inside this is not good. 

Trust me, IF money was no option I would have just paid to make this all stop. Our main problem #1. No extra funds and #2. WHY do we have to PAY for something that was not our fault (no flashing installed, but yet signed off as “Approved” in the area of flashing and on final inspection of the new roof)? 

Luckily, I have family pictures taken by the fireplace that show that same wall and ceiling line (prior to the new roof) and you see no water marks/damage.

As of last night talking with the roofer he has agreed to NOT CHARGE me on doing the flashing (roof work around the chimney, which orig. he was going to charge me $500) but stated I need to pay for the mason work (?) would I be right in saying we "split" the cost of the mason work?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I Think that is fair, yes. He clearly blew it on his proposal, per your narrative. of course there are three sides to every story. :thumbsup:


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Neeko, I can't remember the wording. It comes down to ethos, morals, and finally legality.
I'm under the impression that all contractors are 'under oath' not to do you harm, nor leave you 'less than whole'. nor with less than you had when I started.
You have to be whole when I work on your house, except in the case of 'best effort' repairs when money or other factors may preclude a complete restoration. 

If I did your roof, all details would be taken care of. The chimney flashing would have been included along with pipe collars, etc.

We have flashed those with copper and counter-flashed with 4# lead that would follow the rock pattern and blend in with chimney.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

"Do you mean as a certified roofer/contractor that was licensed? Reason I ask is I'm wondering if all specialist in their field have to sign something like this in each state they are licensed to work in?
I believe so, but don't 'know' it. My own ethos would allow me to do it, legal or not. I have to live with myself. Though my techniques may differ with Jagans, for example, I believe from reading his posts, among others, he would leave you, as would I, even if the style or method used is different. Different in roofing isn't always a matter of right versus wrong, just different.
I also bet neither or us would have done that to you either. Same with most everybody on this and other forums. We take pride in our work.
You ran into a jackleg. 
Apologies for not using others here for an example. I respect all of you. 

What are SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies? 
State Corporation Commission. 

Sorry for the typo. It's DPOR. 
http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/ 

I'm listed in there somewhere. We are regulated.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

The chimney can be flashed with an apron, cricket, and step flashing normally, then use lead to counter-flash it and it will look natural.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

BTW, your chimney isn't going to work with a cricket. You'll want a rear pan that sticks out onto the roof about 6-8" and tinner-winged to kick the water away from it.
The rake edge needs to extend 2-3" past the rake and have the edge turned up, so the finished product extends about 1 to 1-1/2" past the outer shingles.
The pan should have a bit of slope so the water turns towards the roof proper, BUT NOT so much as to open a huge hole on the upper/rake end.

EDITED TO ADD! Since you're in Fla. and can't have a cricket behind that monster, if it was me doing it, I'd add a diverter about a foot up the roof from the back of the chimney and extend it 4"-6" beyond the chimney corner. No need to to make the pan handle the whole deluge in a huge storm.

It should look about like this pic on the roof side.



The front corner should look a bit like the third picture with a tinner's wing that exits on top of the front pan.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Please note that I'm interested in the roof/flashing details and all these pictures are of that and the counter-flashing is NOT installed, nor are these the completed projects. BUT, get these details correct, and it's almost impossibe to get a leak no matter how bad the C-F work.
Here are a couple of pix ot a 100+ year old roof with tinner's wings and no caulk. No leaks either. and you can look all the way across the roof between the chimney and the back pan without interference. 
Honestly, it's typical old-school. Cut the corners nice, tight, and neat and caulk is the only thing keeping the water out.


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