# Patio Paver Quality and Sand ?'s



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Region: Tampa Bay area (central west coast) of Florida. Hot summers with afternoon rains almost daily. 18' x 9' rectangular outdoor patio with fencing.

Half way through a first time patio paver project and next step is base (250) sand. Fortunately, my brother has some experience with paver installation and what it entails. He has helped me to this point (concrete slab removal w/rebar and 6" depth old dirt removal) however, is too busy in next couple weeks so, I'm on my own from here. I am aware that as in all projects prepwork is key and proper positive drainage is a must.

When I spoke to a local privately owned landscaping supply store they told me in our area most people usually install pavers right on top of 4 inches of compacted 250 base sand and then lay pavers and use silica sand for the joints. I've watched videos where others use 3 inches of compacted base sand and then 1 inch of finer top sand (non compacted) to lay the pavers on. Suggestions please.

The local supply store I metioned above has a very limited selection for colors and sizes of 2" depth pavers. However will deliver in palettes. The quality of their pavers looks good yet, I'm not knowledgeable enough to descern a differnce between the ones sold at big box stores that come in more choices and we are also considering. Opinions please.


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

See my response in your duplicate query.

Have the moderator combine them.


ED


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> See my response in your duplicate query. Have the moderator combine them.
> ED


Not sure how that happened. Here's your response:

"The pavers at the "box' stores are usually as good a quality as the ones at the landscapers. You might have a supplier locally that just sells pavers, brick, and supplies, they usually have the best deals.

As for base many use a ratio of 3 to 1 , as base.
3 inches of compacted crushed gravel, and 1 inch of sand, then the pavers, with the silica swept into the cracks, and compacted again. Careful compacting the pavers they can crack if packed too hard."

Thanks. As far as I know 250 sand is the same crushed gravel you mentioned. Is the top sand also silica sand that's used to fill the joints or is it something else?


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Your landscaping guy is right, 4 inches of compacted sand, and an inch of uncompacted as a setting bed, don't usually use gravel base down here.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> Your landscaping guy is right, 4 inches of compacted sand, and an inch of uncompacted as a setting bed, don't usually use gravel base down here.


The landscape guy told me that 250 sand is a mix of crushed shell and sand.

For a total of 7 inch depth? I recently read an internet article that stated: "do not compact top layer of sand" as the loose sand will soon settle and hold pavers in place." Looks like you are saying the same thing. Please recommend the appropriate top sand to put between the base and pavers.


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

The gravel allows the bed to drain better, but it is not mandatory.

The top inch should be clear ( no lumps, stones, shells, etc) sand , so as to have a softer bedding to place the pavers in.


ED


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

A sharp/ irregular sand, the same one you use for the setting bed, or polymeric sand which is supposed to keep weeds at bay, although the school of thought is split about 50/50.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Thanks for the replies and sorry for my delayed reply.

I live in a condo and for the past few days I've had a few neighbors stop by and ask about this patio project. One guy who has been there for 30 years (condos built in 1985) said the HOA collectively sued the builder because of poor drainage issues. In many areas the common areas of landscape is elevated higher than the indoor and outdoor patios. A lady that just moved in a month ago and lives fairly close is suing the previous owner for not disclosing flooding. My place hasn't had any flooding issues however, there was a cement slab and pea gravel in our outdoor patio area prior. 

I spoke to a very knowledgeable local landscaper, told him the situation I mentioned above and asked him how I should proceed. He said that due to the possibility of the common areas outside the patio fence I could either use the 250 base sand without a top layer (crushed cement) or install corrugated pipes under patio area and use crushed gravel and limestone top layer. He said if I were to use 250 base with a crushed cement top layer ..the top layer would harden and not allow drainage between the pavers. I have opted to use 4" base 250 sand and lay the pavers on top with silica sand between pavers. Should I compact or not compact the top one inch of the 250 sand?

Here is a link to the 250 sand info, instructions and the place of purchase: http://www.bigearthsupply.com/lands...brick-pavers/tampa-bay-250-leveling-sand.html


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I always try to use base material, class I rock for final level and dip fill. Then 1/2" of damp sand compacted only with a float as I move along using this method:

I lay some 1/2 x 1/2 x 2' strips in front of me pointed away from me, add the sand smooth out and lightly tamp the damp sand, remove the wood strips, tamp again. The I lay up course until I need to repeat the process.

I never walk, crawl or kneel on the sand layer.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Top 1 inch is NOT compacted, it's your setting bed, after pavers are in place, and silica sand is spread THEN use a plate compactor.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> Top 1 inch is NOT compacted, it's your setting bed, after pavers are in place, and silica sand is spread THEN use a plate compactor.


Seems like there's a different method for each part of the country and climate. Canarywood1.. I live just north of you in Bradenton. I am using 1" pvc to level top layer of 250 and per your suggestion I will not compact it. I've watched videos and some say to stay away from polymeric sand and to use natural sand and just replinish it annually. Suggestions?


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Should I use this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/48-lb-Leveling-Sand-98000/100343385
or similar for top 1" and as joint filler?

I purchased these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Paveston...x-11-4-in-Cafe-Concrete-Edger-95569/204503088
as edging to keep the base sand in and lay the lowest point (under fence) of the pavers on. I plan to stack and cement them together and bury down enough as to not impede water runoff.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Fishbone90 said:


> Seems like there's a different method for each part of the country and climate. Canarywood1.. I live just north of you in Bradenton. I am using 1" pvc to level top layer of 250 and per your suggestion I will not compact it. I've watched videos and some say to stay away from polymeric sand and to use natural sand and just replinish it annually. Suggestions?



The 1 inch pvc is fine for your setting bed, and as i said in previous post, some like polymeric sand and others like natural sand, flip a coin.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Fishbone90 said:


> Should I use this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/48-lb-Leveling-Sand-98000/100343385
> or similar for top 1" and as joint filler?
> 
> I purchased these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Paveston...x-11-4-in-Cafe-Concrete-Edger-95569/204503088
> as edging to keep the base sand in and lay the lowest point (under fence) of the pavers on. I plan to stack and cement them together and bury down enough as to not impede water runoff.


that's okay if you just have a small place your using the pavers, but if it's a large area your better off using bulk sand, and it will be a lot cheaper.


Don't know why your using those edgers, should be using an edging like this.

https://www.olyola.com/paver-edging/?gclid=CNCErd_wlNACFcRZhgodQrEHuQ


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> that's okay if you just have a small place your using the pavers, but if it's a large area your better off using bulk sand, and it will be a lot cheaper. Don't know why your using those edgers, should be using an edging like this.
> 
> https://www.olyola.com/paver-edging/?gclid=CNCErd_wlNACFcRZhgodQrEHuQ


Do you know a place in Sarasota or Bradenton I can purchase bulk sand.. Big Earth doesn't sell it.

As you can probably tell I don't have a real good handle on what I'm doing..Lol. I thought about PVC retainers but at this point I can't find that size locally, don't want to wait for a delivery and I like the look and longevity of what I purchased. I hope to achieve something similar (except, rectagular) to the attached pic.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

SMR in Lakewood Ranch should have what you need, here's a link.

http://www.smraggregates.com


Here's another in Sarasota.

http://1stoplandscapefl.com


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> SMR in Lakewood Ranch should have what you need, here's a link.
> 
> http://www.smraggregates.com
> 
> ...


Thanks for those links. This sounds good:

"1 Stop Paver Sa1nd is a hardier alternative to the standard 250 paver sand. Like all of our Signature products, it is 100% recycled. As an aggregate-based paver sand, 1 Stop Paver Sand is known for its longevity and durability. As with other 250 sand, 1 Stop Paver Sand has uneven edges that work to create a stable base while also being permeable, which helps prevent standing water. It is a perfect sand for retaining walls, flower bed edging, patio stones, and interlocking pavers. Our 1 Stop Paver Sand is available in both bagged and bulk quantities.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Fishbone90 said:


> Thanks for those links. This sounds good:
> 
> "1 Stop Paver Sa1nd is a hardier alternative to the standard 250 paver sand. Like all of our Signature products, it is 100% recycled. As an aggregate-based paver sand, 1 Stop Paver Sand is known for its longevity and durability. As with other 250 sand, 1 Stop Paver Sand has uneven edges that work to create a stable base while also being permeable, which helps prevent standing water. It is a perfect sand for retaining walls, flower bed edging, patio stones, and interlocking pavers. Our 1 Stop Paver Sand is available in both bagged and bulk quantities.



Yes a much better product, as it can be used for base, setting,and to sweep over set pavers to lock in place, never was a fan of 250 base.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> Yes a much better product, as it can be used for base, setting,and to sweep over set pavers to lock in place, never was a fan of 250 base.


Unfortunately, I have 2 cubic yards of Big Earth's 250 sand that was delivered this past Wednesday. I am considering loading up to a 1/2 cubic yard of 1 stop sand in my truck for final 1" top layer and joints.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

​​


Fishbone90 said:


> Unfortunately, I have 2 cubic yards of Big Earth's 250 sand that was delivered this past Wednesday. I am considering loading up to a 1/2 cubic yard of 1 stop sand in my truck for final 1" top layer and joints.


Sure you can use the 250 for base, just be aware that a 1/2 cu yd of the sand you want to pickup is 1500#.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> Sure you can use the 250 for base, just be aware that a 1/2 cu yd of the sand you want to pickup is 1500#.


1500 okay. Thanks.

I've three sets of stakes with that are 4' apart. I plan to install one more set.
Each set of stakes has three string lines: 
Top: level
Middle: slope (runoff) + top of pavers
Bottom: 2" below middle line for top of base

I have shoveled in, tamped down (every 2" depth) and watered approximately 2/3rds of the 250 sand. I started at the foundation and stop about 18" before the fence/edgers (not installed yet). Had to grind and sledge the PVC fence posts concrete footer excess to make room for concrete edgers that I linked prior. 

I'm pretty confident the edgers will work out well however, I've run into a gutter downspout drainage issue. I'm considering using the setup shown in the linked video: 



 Difference is mine will need a six to eight foot diagonal run and there is existing sprinkler plumbing buried about eight inches deep that the 4" PVC will have to cross. Can 4" PVC pipe located and inch below the pavers and traffic hold up? 

The gutter downspout is just below/near a spigot and I plan to put about a 2' x 2' section of egg sized rocks there instead of pavers. Any other possibility for downspout drainage?


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

This may work better for the terminal end of the pipe:


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Unless you are driving a truck on the pavers, or have a couple of HEFTY SILS , the PVC will hold up fine underneath the paver field.

Just remember to try to avoid the area when final compaction time happens.

ED


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> Unless you are driving a truck on the pavers, or have a couple of HEFTY SILS , the PVC will hold up fine underneath the paver field. Just remember to try to avoid the area when final compaction time
> happens.ED


Thanks. Hopefully in a few years some potential grand-children will drive toy trucks on it but, other than that just foot traffic. I'm going to go with the clean out Y-connector near downspout and the open T-connector with buried pea gravel at the terminal end. Using that T-connector makes sense as dirt will inevitably fall into the pipe on a grate or pop-up type so, that system will allow the dirt to filter down through the pea gravel as opposed to using an elbow. I read that a 3% drop should be enough for drainage.

I forgot to mention that the current downspout is 2x3". Could I get away with a 3" pvc pipe or better to stick with 4" for durability and flow?

I will leave the top 1" of base loose for paver setting. Is it okay to hand tamper or rubber mallet the pavers down or should I rent a machine tamper? I'd rather avoid he extra expense if possible.


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

You can use either way to tamp the final, most people machine tamp, because they think that they have more money than time.


The hand tamping takes time and strength to lift the tamper and put it down repeatedly, but it will work.

And if you get frequent deluges, you might be better off with a 4" pipe, to carry the runoff away faster. You know your normal rainfall much better than I do, Your call.
Build your base very well, and you should have no problems with it, until the grandkids have kids, then it will be their problem.

ED


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> You can use either way to tamp the final, most people machine tamp, because they think that they have more money than time.The hand tamping takes time and strength to lift the tamper and put it down repeatedly, but it will work.
> 
> And if you get frequent deluges, you might be better off with a 4" pipe, to carry the runoff away faster. You know your normal rainfall much better than I do, Your call.Build your base very well, and you should have no problems with it, until the grandkids have kids, then it will be their problem.
> 
> ED


Thanks again Ed.


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

I will leave the top 1" of base loose for paver setting. Is it okay to hand tamper or rubber mallet the pavers down or should I rent a machine tamper?

Plate tamper will do a much better job than hand tamping, especially when you spread the sand to lock the pavers in place, don't cheap out on that as it's an important step in the whole process.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

Can myself and a few of my fat friends jump up and down on them and save myself $? ..Lol


----------



## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Fishbone90 said:


> Can myself and a few of my fat friends jump up and down on them and save myself $? ..Lol




Nah,doesn't work that way.


----------



## Fishbone90 (Oct 30, 2012)

The brain of the operation (my brother) came over yesterday and got the project back on track. I purchased stone edgers to use as paver sand retainer and levelling but, they were taking too long, would leave bigger gaps and weren't going to be as adjustable as the 2"x6" PT boards my brother suggested and used. Ended up needing an additional one cubic yard of paver base than the recommended two cubic yards that was delivered a week ago from Big Earth. We used 1-stop's paver base that took two seperate trips in my brother's 1/2 ton pickup truck. Seems to me the quality and smoothness of Big Earth's 250 sand is much better for the final top layer. One stop's paver base has a lot of small pebbles in it. 

We have about 3/4 of the pavers down and will be laying the rest today as well cutting them and using a plate compactor machine to tamp them down.
Will post pics soon. Thanks evryone for all the help.


----------



## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

I case you are still undecided about "pavers", consider real Georgia Red Clay Brick. may cost a tad more, but what a difference. "Fake" pavers are colored with a dye, (and are molded concrete, not fired brick), which, in our Florida intense sun will fade and in a few short years you could notice the fading, and be disappointed. You dont want to be one who mutters "If only I had known".

I put them in in 2000. All 6600 of them. Still the same color as when I installed. Their color of course, comes from natural minerals (iron, mostly). never fade in the sun. 

I packed crushed shell- available in FL mostly anywhere. 5" deep. Good luck.


----------

