# Insulating utility room



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Go ahead and insulate a majority the room. If the space is inaccessible is fairly small in that heat loss through that area probably won't create too many issues if any.

Post up a picture if you can.

You can always get some bat insulation stuff back there as well but be sure to use something like a Roxul.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks for the reply,

I will have to see if I have photos. It is basically a rectangular room. The long side has a stepped footing that comes about 3.5 feet up infront of the cinderblock wall. It forms a sort of ledge. The shorter side has the electrical panel and wires take up about 20% of that wall. I figured I would get one of those home spray-foam kits and use that. Can I spray that on cinderblock without framing?


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## Piedmont (Nov 1, 2007)

Here's what I would do, as someone who actually enjoys creating spreadsheets, reading books on insulation, and doing heat loss formula's makes me excited as graph paper and pencil does to a D&D master.

My insulation book said it this way. Cement has an R-value of 0.08 per inch, a cinder-block has about 0.2 R-value, wood (rim joist) is around 1.5 per inch. Basically, the insulation value of a basement is horrific. However, it has the benefit of earth. 

My book says 80% of the heat loss of a basement occurs on the top half of basement walls. That is, just insulating the top half is the best value for a utility room it gets expensive to go more with minimal gain. This also depends how much of the wall is exposed a walkout basement you'd do the whole wall. Use XPS foam (eXtruded PolyStyrene usually comes in sheets of pastel colors like pink, or baby blue, green, yellow, purple sheets but not white... white is Expanded PolyStryrene and not recommended for basements. You also don't want faced, nor polyisocyanurate foam). 

For the walls use the XPS foam, cover the top half, tape all seams with aluminum tape (it's silver). I personally 
buy sheets of XPS foam
buy foam compatible adhesive (some adhesive will eat foam)
buy some tapcons & washers
buy aluminum foil tape (not nashua brand)
buy expanding foam sealant (either cans, or I prefer the gun $55 US dollars http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-PRO-14-Foam-Dispensing-Gun-230409/202892513 and a can for it is about $10). 

Then I cut each piece so half the wall is covered. Put 2 tapcons in to hold each in place near the top, put up the next sheet butted to the first and tape the seam, then I use spray foam to bead along the bottom of each piece to make sure it's sealed. Any wires, I cut the foam around them and spray foam over the wires to keep a seal.

For the rim joist(s) I cut XPS foam pieces slightly smaller than needed, put them in place, and spray foam around the edges which expands creating a tight seal.

It's more work than just spray foam but costs 1/2 as much. I don't know if you've priced the DIY spray foam kits that can do entire areas/walls it's expensive. Also don't underestimate how explosive the fumes get when applying a spray foam kit be sure there's no sparks, pilot lights, etc when applying.

Good luck!


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I cant imagine being as excited about insulation as you are but we all have our things I guess...I do early Christian theological history for a living so...

I have several bags (by bag I mean the big bag) of roxul insulation left over. I believe it is r32. Would it make sense to frame, roxul insulate, and vapor barrier the wall I can quite easily get to and save the xps foam for the wall with the electrical panel on it? 

Until I read your post my idea was to frame a wall 3-4" in front of the elecrical panel then to stuff as much roxul in as I can but leave the area around the electrical panel clear.


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## Piedmont (Nov 1, 2007)

Hmm... I did see the roxul how to insulate a basement video but I can't say I agree it's a good idea. 

The issue becomes moisture in the form of condensation or seeping. Oddly building codes in the USA are bad here because they require R11 or R13 insulated walls in a basement with a vapor barrier on the inside which encourages people to use fiberglass batts against basement walls and then cover it with a vapor barrier as it meets code which in the end creates the highest possibility of having moisture getting trapped between the vapor barrier and foundation creating a moldy/mildew science experiment. I see you live in Canada and I would think the issue is more problematic.

I'm not that familiar with Roxul, except around here it is extremely expensive. It sounds like a bad situation, although Roxul is inorganic so is fiberglass. Usually fiberglass allows the moisture to seep in through the cement or have the evaporation point inside which causes a problem with the wood in the stud wall(s) and any other organic matter which may be behind the wall creating mold/mildew. Moisture in the presence of organic matter (wood in stud wall) usually = mold/mildew. You can use Roxul, but cover the wall with a layer of XPS foam first and no vapor barrier. The XPS will only allow a tiny amount of moisture to dry to the inside, which the Roxul will let it continue, and without a vapor barrier on the inside the wall can dry. For condensation the foam will move the condensation point inside the foam which is harmless. 

Everything I've read and seen says, mineral wool, cellulose, and fiberglass should not be the first layer of insulation against the foundation since it's air permeable. It can be the second after a layer of XPS foam.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Piedmont said:


> Hmm... I did see the roxul how to insulate a basement video but I can't say I agree it's a good idea.
> 
> The issue becomes moisture in the form of condensation or seeping. Oddly building codes in the USA are bad here because they require R11 or R13 insulated walls in a basement with a vapor barrier on the inside which encourages people to use fiberglass batts against basement walls and then cover it with a vapor barrier as it meets code which in the end creates the highest possibility of having moisture getting trapped between the vapor barrier and foundation creating a moldy/mildew science experiment. I see you live in Canada and I would think the issue is more problematic.
> 
> ...


 The building codes here seem to be the same as there but we are to keep an inch or 2 separation between the frame/insulation and foundation wall. 

I am not intending to finish this part of the basement. I just want to insulate it so that the cold room does not affect the warm, finished side of the basement. I do intend to stuff the wall between the cold and warm rooms with insulation.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

If the basement is below grade, you don't have much to worry about. Insulate down grade level and a bit below. (maybe a foot or 2, anything more is optional) The ground is an insulator and is also a giant thermal mass. The temp in that room won't vary much at all. (I might put a small dehumidifier in there just to keep it from smelling musty.)





Piedmont said:


> ...as someone who actually enjoys creating spreadsheets, reading books on insulation, and doing heat loss formula's makes me excited as graph paper and pencil does to a D&D master..


Check out EVE online.... Spacesheets.....should really be called spreedsheets online.... Erm yeaaaah.... Everyone has got their thing. 


Cheers!


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

I think my over all concern is the electrical panel. It would have been nice if they had secured it to 2x4s off the wall instead of a just putting it on plywood and mounting it on cinderblock. As I said I can quite easily remove the water heater and well tank to get at the long wall. I just dont want to have to insulate interior partition walls as to isolate the main room from the utility room. 

maybe the best option is to get the electrician to move the panel when they come back to hook up the heaters.

I am probably worrying too much about this considering I do have a 1500w heater in that room and it is all below grade!


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Here are some pics of the room under discussion...










The short wall (on the right) has the electrical panel and an electric heater. 










Here is the longer wall with the water system and laundry machines. I could easily continue the existing framing onto the other wall.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

I have never known anyone that has ever insulated the utility room. If they do it, they do it before any items are installed in said space. That includes placing 5/8" drywall on the walls after either Sprayed on or Batt insulation is installed.

To do it correctly, you will have to move some stuff out of that space, instead of just trying to shove stuff behind the equipment.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

So if the don't insulate the utility room how do they create a thermal break between the finished portion of basement and the utility room? Drywall and vapor barrier the interior walls and use an insulated door between?

I never intended to shove insulation behind anything. On the lon wall I planned to remove the water tanks and laundry machines, and continue the framing, insulate and vapor barrier. I am more concerned with the short wall with the electrical panel on it. Should I just leave that wall bare, frame and insulate to the wiring on both sides, or do as piedmont suggested and glue xps/eps to the wall?


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## BarryP (Jun 14, 2015)

Get firefaced vinyl fiberglass and wrap the wall. If you have pipes running on the surface of the wall, do not insulate over the pipe... even with foam. Make sure you have a vent to keep that room heated. A basement room will freeze at the level of the joists, so make sure your rim joists are well insulated, but do not insulate over any pipe. Best to leave it exposed with heat going into that room.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Is this vinyl insulation the stuff with a thin layer of insulation sandwiched between to sheets of material? It think the problem is that by code I have to conceal any insulation I install with drywall/plywood whatever. How would I attach drywall to that?


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## BarryP (Jun 14, 2015)




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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

gregzoll said:


> I have never known anyone that has ever insulated the utility room. If they do it, they do it before any items are installed in said space. That includes placing 5/8" drywall on the walls after either Sprayed on or Batt insulation is installed.
> 
> To do it correctly, you will have to move some stuff out of that space, instead of just trying to shove stuff behind the equipment.


 You will notice in the pictures that there is a frost wall in front of the cinderblock wall. IT is about 6" this and about 3' high at its highest (it drops down to about 1/4" high on the other side of the cottage.

What this in mind, how about this...I remove the plumbing system and glue eps or xps foam to the bare concrete of the frost wall and the cinderblock wall. I have enough room to do this behind the drain pipes. I then frame a 2x4 or wall 1" from the frost wall straight up to the joists and stuff that wall with the Roxul batt insulation I have and cover it in vapour barrier. For the wall with the electrical panel on it I will glue as much foam as I can to it, frame a 2x6 or 2x8 wall in front of the panel, then insulate and vapor barrier that wall...I say 2x6 or 2x8 because I am not concerned about space in that room, it will allow me to double up on the batt insulation (I have lots leftover), and because the wider widths give me plenty of area to notch out for wires. 

Either that or I insulate and vapor barrier the warm side of the 2x8 wall that sits under the main beam to create a thermal break between the warm and cold zones....in reality though whenever the heat is on in the warm zone the heat will be on in the cold zone so I'm not sure it is worth while.

thanks for your help in this and my other message!


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

BarryP said:


>


 is that glued to the exterior wall or is it mounted to a stud wall?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Concrete nailed to poured or block wall.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

Im assuming it functions as insulation and vapor barrier? Does it come in a variey of thickness/ rvalues?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Yes.

I would skip it and go with rigid foam. I am not a fan of PSK.


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## BarryP (Jun 14, 2015)

silky said:


> Im assuming it functions as insulation and vapor barrier? Does it come in a variey of thickness/ rvalues?


R-13 and r-19.... r 13 would be all that is necessary.

Rigid foam board is a good solution. However, it is far easier to recommend than to pay for it 


One caveat... it depends on how much you need to cover. You don't want to purchase a 100' roll, either.


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## silky (Apr 22, 2009)

So lets see if we can get a consensus...board glued or nailed on concrete, 2x4 stud wall in front of that, batt insulation in stud wall, vapor barrier over stud wall. 

What would I do with gaps and stuff around wires and the electrical panel? just fill in with expanding foam?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You do not use Expanding foam around the panel. You need to just box around it, then place a panel that can be pulled off, to give access to the panel.


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## BarryP (Jun 14, 2015)

It is a basement. You only need moderate insulation. I go with R13 vinyl blanket and place more attention on the rim joists.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Photo #3 and #7, aka. "the diaper"; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5YCwBw&usg=AFQjCNGYl3LafAv-Hjm7Gq3ToLZQruI9mg

Gary


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sort the above/below-grade (different) walls for moisture problems, and specific location testing for local climate results; ftp://ftp.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/chic-ccdh...ngual/Vapour_Permeance_Volume_1_Web_sept5.pdf

Gary


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