# Vinyl Replacement Windows



## fixiechick (Jan 22, 2009)

I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are compareable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.

Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Sorry, never heard of either, but you should compare warranties on the glass, the installation and the window frame. Make sure these companies have been around for a while. The warranty won't mean much if the company goes belly up.
Ron


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

I've never heard of either of them before. Vinyl windows of any kind aren't that great. Vinyl contracts and expands and glass doesn't. Two materials that should never be put together. The reason you chose to go with vinyl is...matching old windows, thought they would be low maintenance(they aren't), and they are inexpensive.
If you want a quality window, go with Anderson or Marvin. Even a Pella or a Jeld Wen would be better. Sure you pay more money. You can't expect to buy fine wine on a beer budget.


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

jaros, we up here use vinyl 90 % of the time. The glass is not physically attached to the vinyl.. and multiple rubber seals seal from glass to vinyl on both sides. I'm curious as to why you dislike them. Cheers


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

90% of them are substandard. I have had few that didn't come warped, assembled wrong, operated poorly, broken fins, poor weatherstripping, or didn't last more than 10 years. They don't last, plain and simple. You can't take a material that contracts and expands and expect it to work from -40 to 110 without any problems.

I would compare vinyl windows to using pressure treated for your deck. Yes, it can be done, but why not spend the extra money to get something you can appreciate. Laminate flooring is another good example.


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

Interesting.. we don't seem to have that problem here in Western Canada. Mine were installed in 1992, and they are as good as new. Cheers


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

I have had Alside's top line windows for 8 years and have had no issues. They do seem very well build. Although, had I been a little more educated I would have just spent the extra mony for good wood clad windows such as Anderson.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

wood swells and shrinks metal expands and contracts i dont see whats so different about vinyl but i agree you get what you pay for


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I stayed away from installing vinyl windows for years. As a contractor I would see house after house with issues. The two most prevalent were broken glass seals and broken balances. Many from companies that were no longer in business. It seemed every Tom, Dick and Harry were opening vinyl window companies back in the '70's and '80's. And most of them were crap.
I finally came accross a company as a result of one of my customers buying a house with 65 windows. The previous owner had replaced about 18 windows with vinyl back in 1989. I love it when the window companies put their name and made date in the spacer between the glass. This was in 1998 and all the windows were in great shape. I found out where they were and have been using them since. I haven't had one call back with these windows.
You just need to find the right company.
Ron


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## EmilyP (Dec 28, 2008)

cobracdn said:


> jaros, we up here use vinyl 90 % of the time. The glass is not physically attached to the vinyl.. and multiple rubber seals seal from glass to vinyl on both sides. I'm curious as to why you dislike them. Cheers


 
Does Canada get over 70 degrees for several days straight...I would still recommend a wood clad window over vinyl...."A" and Canadians live in there own world ... you get what you pay for... and the Canadian forgot to mention most MFG of vinyl windows goes out of business in several years so lifetime warranties only mean for as long as the vinyl company is in business and making windows....good luck if you ever need parts... another fact 65% of vinyl windows leak air in 4-5 years after they are installed most do not last more than 10 to 15 years if your lucky here in the states were the temps change 100 degrees then down to 50 degrees... I would recommend Marvin, Andersen, Eagle, good luck


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

EMILY P said:


> Does Canada get over 70 degrees for several days straight...I would still recommend a wood clad window over vinyl...."A" and Canadians live in there own world ... you get what you pay for... and the Canadian forgot to mention most MFG of vinyl windows goes out of business in several years so lifetime warranties only mean for as long as the vinyl company is in business and making windows....good luck if you ever need parts... another fact 65% of vinyl windows leak air in 4-5 years after they are installed most do not last more than 10 to 15 years if your lucky here in the states were the temps change 100 degrees then down to 50 degrees... I would recommend Marvin, Andersen, Eagle, good luck


From all your posts you are definitely anti vinyl. Yet how do you account for Alside? Around for over 50 years, the top manufacturer of windows in the US and Canada and then your reference to expansion? Vinyl has the shortest memory from heat changes vs aluminum and wood and does not have a greater failure rate than the others. What is the current warranty for Andersen windows? 10 years for box stores, and 20 for special order? Sell what you like, but this is not a site to disbarage other companies or products.


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

EMILY P said:


> Does Canada get over 70 degrees for several days straight


LOL.... You know that all of Canada is not in the Arctic right? Maybe Google up some info on your largest Trading partner.. your biggest source of energy.. etc etc.

Oh Ooooo.. have to run the Picture window is becoming dislodged in my ice wall of my Igloo. rotflmao

Cheers


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## Hartford (Nov 11, 2007)

jaros bros. said:


> 90% of them are substandard. I have had few that didn't come warped, assembled wrong, operated poorly, broken fins, poor weatherstripping, or didn't last more than 10 years. They don't last, plain and simple. You can't take a material that contracts and expands and expect it to work from -40 to 110 without any problems.
> 
> I would compare vinyl windows to using pressure treated for your deck. Yes, it can be done, but why not spend the extra money to get something you can appreciate. Laminate flooring is another good example.


Vinyl expansion rates are completely overblown and have been disseminated by other window manufacturers marketing non vinyl windows.

A lineal on a 6ft patio door will expand the thickness of a nickel when subjected to a + or - temperature swing of 50 degrees.


*Sash frames don't cause most seal failures, spacers, sealants (their applications) and sheer stress do. Many competitors grossly exaggerate the expansion and contraction of UPVC. For example, if you had even a 6-foot UPVC frame manufactured at a temperature of 60 degrees F, It would only expand or contract about the thickness of a nickel at 110 degrees or 10 degrees. ALL windows are designed to allow independent expansion/contraction of glass and sash frame.*



fixiechick said:


> I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are comparable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.
> 
> Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!


Great Lakes 4000 series will qualify for the 2009 Energy Credit if you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package.


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

A 50 degree swing? Where do you live that has only a 50 degree swing? I have measured the expansion on a vinyl window and you can get quite a bit of movement. Wood won't move anywhere near to what vinyl moves. Wood does swell and shrink but a good window manufacturer uses a stable wood that doesn't do that. Take a 100 degree swing in a vinyl window, and then add the fact the window can't move because it's been nailed in place, restricted by trim, insulation, maybe drywall jambs. How can the window move? So the vinyl will bow, bend, and twist. Don't get me wrong, not all vinyl windows are garbage. There have just been tons of start up companies that have produced a cheap product and given all vinyl windows a bad name. Basically they've preyed upon unknowing homeowners who think they are getting a deal, when the fact of the matter is that it will end up costing them money in the end because their windows don't last. A significant cost of replacing a window is labor and if you have to do it twice, what did you save. For that matter, the cost of quality window would have to be twice the cost of the material and twice the labor to install to even out.
Now some homeowners have great vinyl windows. Great, but for those of us in the field that see hundreds of vinyl windows year in and year out, we see the vast quantities of cheap replacements and windows that are flooding the market and failing after two to three years.
I have to say there are good ones, but they are the minority and you will pay almost as much for them as you would a good wood clad or composite window.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

I agree with Jaros, these windows remind me of the movie Tin Man. I personally don,t like them. BOB.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

not really a question of liking them or not,sometimes its more a question of budget not everyone can afford top of the line windows.A good quality vinyl window from a reputable manufacturer and a good installer are key to a durable cost effective widow installation


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Very true struble, very true.


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

You get 100 degree swings in Texas? We here see -50C in the winter and 40C as a topper in the summer. The nailing strips on Vinyl windows are the same idea as the nailing strip in Vinyl siding.. if your nailing them tight and nailing every hole your installing them wrong. Proper rough openings and nailing and insulating.. and a quality vinyl window will not warp! Now I can't speak to some of the manufacturers in the States, but here we have some, here today & gone tomorrow types.. that's just a matter of doing your homework.. and that's not unlike anything else out there. We also have manufacturers that have a 20 year record... just a matter of looking into it a bit. There will always be HO's out there looking for cheap and that's what they will get in both price and quality. Vinyl also will not be affected by moisture.. which in your neck of the woods is a bigger problem then here. And being maintenance free, they are more savings over time as they will not need refinishing as with wood.

Cheers


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm originally from Minnesota, just south of Winnipeg. I'm sure it was the same temp swings that you have in Canada. Could be 100f in the summer down to -45f in the winter. I still don't understand what you are saying...you think the windows move in those nail slots? Some don't even have slots. And the manufacture ask for a bead of silicone around the outside. What about the ones with drywall returns and returns for wood trim?


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

The flanges on the vinyl windows cannot operate like vinyl siding, and they are to be nailed tight. The window itself cannot expand outward, only in the direction of the slot. In other words, how can the top and bottom move up and down. They can't because the slots are only left and right. What you stated doesn't make any sense at all. Furthermore, how would you ever square a window that was slightly out of square during installation.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i agree with Mr Jaros on the nailing flange they are to be nailed tight


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

From Jen weld:
*Fastener heads must be flush. Do not dent nailing fin.

*From Supreme:
Apply a caulking bead (2) to exterior of the rough opening to seal
against the nailing fin (3).
Remove shipping blocks (4)
(_not *installation* blocks_) and insert the *window*
into the rough opening.
Tack the *window* at two corners 4" from the
corner and ensure that the *window* is square, plumb and level
according to the outside frame (5), _*NOT *_squared using the jamb
extension (8).
Finish nailing the *window* in, placing nails (6) in the centre of the slot,
every second slot, keeping 4" away from the corners, *do not tighten
the nail, just snug as to allow for expansion and contraction.*
It is important to use the correct nail type, something with a large and
flat head ie:roofing nails, a minimum 1 1/2" length.
Insulate (7) _*LOOSELY *_with fibreglass or non-expanding foam, making
sure not to bow the frame or jamb extension.

Cheers


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

You still fail to recognize that the window cannot expand perpendicular to the nailing fin, only horizontally. This means that the window will start to be under a lot of stress when there is heating and cooling. When you nail vinyl siding loosely you can slide a dime behind the head. Not so with a vinyl window. They are nailed firmly into the silicone. It cannot and will not move uninhibited. Furthermore, you still have not addressed the problem with the jamb receivers. Dimpling the flange is not the equivalent of nailing tight. You are to nail tight but not as to compromise the nailing flange.
This puts a lot of stress on the windows and the vinyl. You're not going to read about that from a vinyl window manufacturer because they are trying to sell you a window. Material selection for any product is very important and although I like vinyl for its low maintenance, its stability makes it a poor choice for a structural type application. 
The main reason why vinyl companies don't want expanding foam is because of the fear of bowing the jambs, something to be concerned about with any fenestration. Some companies do allow a minimal expanding foam.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

the thing with with vinyl is that it is ,well plastic, nailing the relatively thin nailing flanges[as josh says tight not mashed in] doesn't affect the rest of the relativity stronger frame extrusion as long as it shimed properly to a large extent.Vinyl siding is at least 12' long and at the most will travel only 1/2 the length of the nail slot.Windows frame component are usually much shorter so total expansion will be less.Very long or dark colored vinyl window frames can be a problem tho in those situations i would opt for a clad or fiberglass frame unit


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

Well I don't know what else to add, other then to reiterate that Mine (All weather Windows) were originally installed in 1992. I've had no problem with them. They do have returns. Most of the housing here have Vinyl, and I've not heard of anyone here having issues with expansion and contraction.

Cheers


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

ive never had one either.I have seen the frames a little bowed but not so much that the seal was a problem when the units are closed


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## WindowInfo (Feb 23, 2009)

fixiechick said:


> I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are comparable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.
> 
> Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!


The Plygem Great Lakes 4000 is a decent window. Make sure you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package like Hartford said.

4000 Double Hung with Maxuus (Double Low E Argon)
U-factor = .30
SHGC = .27
without Maxuss Glass
U-factor = .31
SHGC = .26

The tax credits have been converted to 30% of the cost of the windows up to $1500. A $5000 purchase will get you the maximum $1500 credit. (The previous $200 cap on windows has been removed.

*The new standards are that the windows have to have a minimum NFRC U-Factor of .30 and a minimum NFRC Solar Heat Gain Coefficient of .30*

Vinyl is a durable product, it has stood the test of time. (Over twenty years for most the large manufacturers)

The expansion on vinyl is so minimal, you will most likely never, never, I mean, NEVER see a problem because of this. Unless you live in Arizona and put the windows facing south west, no cover and paint the windows bronze. You might see the breakdown of the vinyl integrity. You have to get the window to 160 for the PVC to become pliable.

I've seen vinyl windows I put in 25 years ago (that have been washed regularly) that look and operate almost like the day I installed them. Not all vinyl windows will though. 
The installation methods, the size of the window, the type of the window, the counterbalances used in the window (if double hung) and the success of the spacer system all have their share to do with the longevity of the window.

Vinyl windows have a better performance. Better U-factors,Better DP Ratings,Better Warranty then most wood windows. You can check check for yourself at the NFRC website. Here is a link
http://cpd.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_default.aspx?type=W

Also replacement windows *do not* come with a nailing fin. Nailing fins are usually for new construction windows.

Make sure you check references of the company and go see a few jobs done by the installers.

*Good Luck with your purchase *


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## fhivinylwindows (Jun 11, 2006)

I agree that 90% of vinyl windows are garbage.........on the same note 90% of wood windows are also garbage.  Come to think of it, 90% of the stuff at Wal-Mart is garbage and 90% of the food at your supermarket is not healthy for you. I've installed vinyl windows for the past 15 years and I've learned the hard way the true cost of installing cheap windows (failure & warranty nightmares). Now I install good vinyl windows that are mostly triple pane and would not think of installing a wood product regardless of how it's clad.

my 2 cents


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## cobracdn (Jan 27, 2009)

Well that's giving it your 90%  
Cheers


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

there is a market for vinyl... for those who work at burger king or McDonalds...with low income....the saying goes...you get what you pay for ... most salesmen that sell vinyl have a gimic pitch... I sell vinyl but explain to the customer the clear differences 


Emiliy i dont think i would ever buy windows from you with that attitude:no:


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

WindowInfo said:


> The Plygem Great Lakes 4000 is a decent window. Make sure you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package like Hartford said.
> 
> 4000 Double Hung with Maxuus (Double Low E Argon)
> U-factor = .30
> ...


Ditto. Well put. The guy with one post makes the most informed comment of this entire thread.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

thanks for your valuable input homesealed


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

I guess I could take what he said and put it into my own words if you'd like, but I think his response covered all the bases.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

just kidding nice to see your imput:thumbsup:


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## EmilyP (Dec 28, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> there is a market for vinyl... for those who work at burger king or McDonalds...with low income....the saying goes...you get what you pay for ... most salesmen that sell vinyl have a gimic pitch... I sell vinyl but explain to the customer the clear differences
> 
> 
> Emiliy i dont think i would ever buy windows from you with that attitude:no:


Tom,
THe reason I say that is my cusotmers are always the ones who loose out in the end, not me. My cusotmers have had vinyl windows stress crack after a year they were installed for my customers and vinyl company company says too bad: 14 of 26 windows had sashes that the glass cracked, the company says pound salt? After you face the music time and time again...and you hear others say for fourty dollars to sixty dollars more I could have had an ANdersen Windows or Marvin, you'd understand my position more. Or AWS a division of Hurd goes out of business and you have warranty issues, with glass fogging up patio door panels and window sashes...the customers expect better performance from windows then 3 years. I also have worked several home shows and had customers almost crying because their contractor who just build this 1/2 million home for them 4 years ago used vinyl windows, now need new windows...They had ANdersen and Pella's in their old home, with no problems, the vinyl company just went out of business... and the Contractor recommedned them...

I just measured a house full (26 windows in all)of 1960 Andersen Casements, customer could go cheap and buy vinyl I did ask the cusotmer how long they plan on living there, they did not know. But, their reply to me was, I'll loose glass space be limited on options, warranties are good as the vinyl company is in business, customer said why... I want to go with the best Andersen WIndows these lasted 49 years...there is no rott, they are primed wood casements, some hardware is bad, which andersen still can get, and they single pane with an RGS panels, but most looked good, but hey are not energy efficient... Plus with Todays ANdersen Window "A" (made of fibex which will never rott)Series windows I could get them the option of 10 colors exterior and 10 pre stained options on the inside, plus the customer also qualifies for the new tax rebates with Andersen's new SMart Sun glass. If the customer sell the the house in several years, the warranty will transfer to the new home owner 20/10 transferable warranty
-adding resale value to the home- 

There is a market for vinyl, but after you show the cusotmer what they are purchasing is very important why waste your money on plastic...if you buy a Marvin or an Andersen you're getting the one of the best windows out there, and you know the company will be around for along time, you can get service, parts and a piece of mind...and you never have too 2nd guess your self... sorry for the attitude, but wood windows come first then cheap vinyl windows that you hope the customer never asks for service or parts or needs warranty contact info..


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## EmilyP (Dec 28, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> Ditto. Well put. The guy with one post makes the most informed comment of this entire thread.


 
Question, 
I was just on the NFRC website and PLY GEM wasn't one of the companies listed certified by the NFRC. I'm asking are they? I thought only 20% of window and door MFG qualified for the new Gov rebates. I'm only asking, because you stated that the several lines qualified the PLY GEM makes. That being said, do they have to be rated by the NFRC to be qualified for the new government rebates.. I also looked at Pella and Jeld Wen. I saw that there is no Pella Pro line (sold at big box stores, LOWES & Menards) that meets these requirements, very few designer series windows meet the requirements, and Jeld Wen had very few traditions line Plus windows that meet these requirements. Mostly fixed windows only...

So please go to the web site NFRC...choose the MFGs that qualify and you'll see that only certain companies highlighted in blue qualify for the rebates...also notice that most vinyl window companies do not qualify...


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

thankyou Emily i do see your point


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

EMILY P said:


> Question,
> I was just on the NFRC website and PLY GEM wasn't one of the companies listed certified by the NFRC. I'm asking are they? I thought only 20% of window and door MFG qualified for the new Gov rebates. I'm only asking, because you stated that the several lines qualified the PLY GEM makes. That being said, do they have to be rated by the NFRC to be qualified for the new government rebates.. I also looked at Pella and Jeld Wen. I saw that there is no Pella Pro line (sold at big box stores, LOWES & Menards) that meets these requirements, very few designer series windows meet the requirements, and Jeld Wen had very few traditions line Plus windows that meet these requirements. Mostly fixed windows only...
> 
> So please go to the web site NFRC...choose the MFGs that qualify and you'll see that only certain companies highlighted in blue qualify for the rebates...also notice that most vinyl window companies do not qualify...


I would have to say that the NFRC website isn't accurate, or you didn't read thoroughly. PlyGem owns Great Lakes, MW, and several other window companies including most recently Certainteed if I'm not mistaken. All of the above mentioned windows come with NFRC rating and depending upon the glass package/model you choose, all have an option that will meet the requirements for the new tax credit which is .30 or less U-factor and .30 or less SHG....I'd also like to call you out on the scare tactics used in your earlier post, talking about vinyl windows cracking and failing after a few years. I'm not sure what windows you've seen, but the MAJORITY of reputable vinyl window manufacturer's offer a lifetime transferrable warranty. Last time I checked that is a little longer than the 20/10 warranty that most wood manufacturers offer. Furthermore, it is a rare occurance that I see major warranty claims on vinyl windows....And just to clarify, I like wood windows, however I also like a quality vinyl window. They each have their place. Your slanted, misleading answers may work well iin your high-pressure sales pitch with uneducated homeowners, but it won't fly amongst people who know what they're talking about.


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## EmilyP (Dec 28, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> I would have to say that the NFRC website isn't accurate, or you didn't read thoroughly. PlyGem owns Great Lakes, MW, and several other window companies including most recently Certainteed if I'm not mistaken. All of the above mentioned windows come with NFRC rating and depending upon the glass package/model you choose, all have an option that will meet the requirements for the new tax credit which is .30 or less U-factor and .30 or less SHG....I'd also like to call you out on the scare tactics used in your earlier post, talking about vinyl windows cracking and failing after a few years. I'm not sure what windows you've seen, but the MAJORITY of reputable vinyl window manufacturer's offer a lifetime transferrable warranty. Last time I checked that is a little longer than the 20/10 warranty that most wood manufacturers offer. Furthermore, it is a rare occurance that I see major warranty claims on vinyl windows....And just to clarify, I like wood windows, however I also like a quality vinyl window. They each have their place. Your slanted, misleading answers may work well iin your high-pressure sales pitch with uneducated homeowners, but it won't fly amongst people who know what they're talking about.


THen call Jeld Wen SUmmit windows, Jeld Wen Wendco vinyl, Thema Star, Silver Line, Allside, Sprouse, Softlite, Dove, and ask what there warranty is for stress cracks, one year, no service provider or contractor is going to come out and install these sashes or panels after a year, these vinyl comapnies are some of the largest, I sold them all, and still sell them, when I have too, but to tell a customer to pound salt, is not a good warranty or customer service. The warranties "are not transferrable." Good luck if you ever need parts for older series of vinyl windows, that have changed since then. Block and tackle balance systems that allow sashes to sag.
I have recently seen these vinyl companies go out of business and these were not small companies either, Survior Windows know as Reliabilt sold at Lowes, All Weather Seal a division of Hurd, Carefree windows sold at Wicks/UBC/Pro Build, Republic Windows in Chicago which was well known, so what would you tell cusotmers that bought these windows, 84 lumber branded window not sure the make, and several generic small regional players with more to fall, the market is 65% vinyl, I know that. 
The Home is your best investment, why not buy a decent window that will pay you back. Yes, some wood companines aren't that great, but I still believe customers should been shown features and benefits of a wood window. When you have access to the best windows, Eagle, Marvin, Andersen, Weather Sheild, Koble and why would you consider selling vinyl. Maybe you are not part of their window programs so you may not know the windows of today. Maybe, your selling a off brand window, that no one is ever hear about, and no knows anything about? 
But, do me a favor, take a part vinyl Therma Star vinyl completely apart or Jeld Wen Vinyl, Silver Line Vinyl, or Allside, Sprouse, Gorrell, Siminton and your going to tell me that these are far better than a Marvin or Andersen, please... I can tell all the con and pro's you want to know... Siminton is a good window if I have too sell it, but there not a vinyl window I have seen compare to it, but with the 5600 Series price you can buy Marvin and Andersen.. so why buy vinyl in the first place...


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## slickracer (Nov 13, 2008)

EMILY P said:


> Question,
> I was just on the NFRC website and PLY GEM wasn't one of the companies listed certified by the NFRC. I'm asking are they? I thought only 20% of window and door MFG qualified for the new Gov rebates. I'm only asking, because you stated that the several lines qualified the PLY GEM makes. That being said, do they have to be rated by the NFRC to be qualified for the new government rebates.. I also looked at Pella and Jeld Wen. I saw that there is no Pella Pro line (sold at big box stores, LOWES & Menards) that meets these requirements, very few designer series windows meet the requirements, and Jeld Wen had very few traditions line Plus windows that meet these requirements. Mostly fixed windows only...
> 
> So please go to the web site NFRC...choose the MFGs that qualify and you'll see that only certain companies highlighted in blue qualify for the rebates...also notice that most vinyl window companies do not qualify...


They are registered under Great Lakes Window...the parent company.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Emily, please don't put words into my mouth. When have I said that vinyl windows are "far better than a Marvin or Andersen,"? As I stated previously, there are very nice wood windows available. If cost is no concern, a high-end wood window is probably the best product you can buy--I sell and install WeatherShield and Pella. That being said, there are some junk wood windows out there that are worse than much cheaper vinyl products....The main issue I have with what you are saying is your unequivocal trashing of vinyl windows. There is no basis for it. Once again you've flat out lied in your most recent statement saying that vinyl window warranties are not transferrable. THEY ARE. I'm guessing you could find the info on their websites, and I'm talking about decent quality windows like Alside/Revere, Siminton,. To address another lie, most decent vinyl windows come with constant force balances, not block and tackle (although sagging due to a balance issue would be warrantied anyway). As far as lie #3, stress cracks, I have had to replace a few sashes due to stress cracks in both vinyl and wood windows and never had any issue getting it warrantied....
In summary: There are great high-end wood products, there are great vinyl products, they each have pros and cons and you are doing your client a disservice if you don't offer both and give an HONEST and INFORMED breakdown of the differences. Lastly, as may or may not have been previously stated in this thread, a window is only as good as the installation...How many windows have you installed to have such strong opinions on the subject?
...Also, please note the "sticky" at the top of this message board posted by the moderator:

*This is a how to site, not a why I hate this product site* 
I just wanted to post a quick reminder here. This is a "*how to do it yourself*" site and not a "*why I hate this product*" site. If you have a question about a product or need help with it please post about it. If your here just to make some sort of public statement about a product or company then this is not the place for you.


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

I would have to agree with Emily on one point, that being your home is your largest financial investment. That is about where I stop agreeing. I recently got a quote to install new Pella windows in my house. We got the quote and signed away, then it all went bad. They informed us we needed to install tempered glass in our living room as it was not 18 inches from the floor. (large 6ft x 12ft window). And of course that would cost extra 400.00. They reluctantly agreed to cover that cost. Then we were informed that we should put a waterproof trim on the outer windows, at a cost of $8.00 a foot( sorry not included in contract). We asked about the sliding patio windows and if they needed that trim only to be informed they we not even a Pella window. We spoke to a number of people after this and found out they were treated much the same. I am not trying to bash a company only to share my experience with a so called reputable company. We and so many others felt as though we were being scammed. Needles to say we cancelled contract and will not deal with them again. We are still in the process of finding a reputable company to do business with. By the way, they were the highest of all of our quotes, so money was not an issue.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that, its sounds like the company you dealt with was poorly run (or at least a few people).


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

yes it does seem to be that, and unfortunately it reflects badly on that name brand


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> Emily, please don't put words into my mouth. When have I said that vinyl windows are "far better than a Marvin or Andersen,"? As I stated previously, there are very nice wood windows available. If cost is no concern, a high-end wood window is probably the best product you can buy--I sell and install WeatherShield and Pella. That being said, there are some junk wood windows out there that are worse than much cheaper vinyl products....The main issue I have with what you are saying is your unequivocal trashing of vinyl windows. There is no basis for it. Once again you've flat out lied in your most recent statement saying that vinyl window warranties are not transferrable. THEY ARE. I'm guessing you could find the info on their websites, and I'm talking about decent quality windows like Alside/Revere, Siminton,. To address another lie, most decent vinyl windows come with constant force balances, not block and tackle (although sagging due to a balance issue would be warrantied anyway). As far as lie #3, stress cracks, I have had to replace a few sashes due to stress cracks in both vinyl and wood windows and never had any issue getting it warrantied....
> In summary: There are great high-end wood products, there are great vinyl products, they each have pros and cons and you are doing your client a disservice if you don't offer both and give an HONEST and INFORMED breakdown of the differences. Lastly, as may or may not have been previously stated in this thread, a window is only as good as the installation...How many windows have you installed to have such strong opinions on the subject?
> ...Also, please note the "sticky" at the top of this message board posted by the moderator:
> 
> ...


I have to totally agree with you. I have also installed MANY (well over 4000) Alside windows over the last 17 years and have always been impressed by not only their quality, but also that of their warranty. I did this through window world and Alside never questioned when we would request a replacement sash when needed. One story I often like to recite when people ask me about replacement windows (even though I no longer do windows on a regular basis) is one that took place after hurricane Ivan caused so much damage here in Florida. We installed 32 standard 4000 series windows in a three story house on a golf course here one week before Ivan hit. Out of 64 panes of glass and three sliding doors, ONE pane had a CRACK (on the outside pane of the double pane window). Looking through that same window (which looked out on the 9th hole of the golf course) you could see the remains of a neighbors home. This included walls, a hot tub, a small jet boat among other items. The homeowner asked what the cost to replace that pane was, and I explained that accidental breakage is covered by the warranty. They said that they were sure that a branch during the hurricane must have broken it. I asked them if they were _SURE_ that they might not have hit it with an extension ladder after the hurricane, and we decided that that _MAY_ have been the cause. Two weeks later, and 30 seconds of labor and the window was replaced at no cost to WW or the homeowner. Subsequently, the powers that be (insurance company driven) decided that mere double pane windows were not strong enough for the Florida panhandle and now require either hurricane glass or double pane with a hurricane protection system (shutters, fabric shield etc). Unfortunately, this really hurts retired mom & pop that can not afford the added cost of hurricane proof windows or normal double panes & shutters, and are left with their 30-40 year old single pane aluminum or wood windows that will almost fall out when cleaned on a hot Florida summers day.
And Emily, I will agree that there are some crap vinyl windows as well as poor window companies, _but_ there are also those who have done the research & development to make a quality product... and the same can be said for any other type window or any other product for that matter.
I respect you right to express your opinion and feel proud of your products, but I also expect you to do the same for others.
Brett


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## lucky8926 (Feb 19, 2009)

wrangler said:


> I have to totally agree with you. I have also installed MANY (well over 4000) Alside windows over the last 17 years and have always been impressed by not only their quality, but also that of their warranty. I did this through window world and Alside never questioned when we would request a replacement sash when needed.


I think you just helped me make my decision to go with WW....:thumbup: I've been researching the crap outta windows for the last 2-3 weeks and WW seemed to always be on top even though it seems a lot of people talk bad about them (most of which seemed to be competitive companies/installers) I felt really good about the no pressure salesman that came out for my estimate and didn't try to talk me into the top of the line or a bunch of stuff I don't need. He actually told me some stuff wasn't necessary even thought it would've put more $$ in his pocket. He also told me that their Comfortline is actually Alside, or made by the same company and Alside has had quite a few :thumbup: from people that have installed them and had them installed in thier homes.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

lucky8926 said:


> I think you just helped me make my decision to go with WW....:thumbup: I've been researching the crap outta windows for the last 2-3 weeks and WW seemed to always be on top even though it seems a lot of people talk bad about them (most of which seemed to be competitive companies/installers) I felt really good about the no pressure salesman that came out for my estimate and didn't try to talk me into the top of the line or a bunch of stuff I don't need. He actually told me some stuff wasn't necessary even thought it would've put more $$ in his pocket. He also told me that their Comfortline is actually Alside, or made by the same company and Alside has had quite a few :thumbup: from people that have installed them and had them installed in thier homes.


I try hard to never badmouth a competitor so I'm gonna be very careful here. WW pays their subcontractors substantially less then most other companies in my market. Draw your own conclusions...That being said, they do use a solid product in Alside/AMI/Revere(I typically install the same) and with this industry being slow, it is probably more likely that you'll get good installers. I'd definitely go for one of their higher end window lines though.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> I try hard to never badmouth a competitor so I'm gonna be very careful here. WW pays their subcontractors substantially less then most other companies in my market. Draw your own conclusions...That being said, they do use a solid product in Alside/AMI/Revere(I typically install the same) and with this industry being slow, it is probably more likely that you'll get good installers. I'd definitely go for one of their higher end window lines though.


You bring up a couple of good points. I don't know about your area, but I know that the franchise owner down here never installed less than a 4000 series, but one time I did receive a window that did not have constant force balances (a mistake from the factory) . Until that point, I did not know that Alside even made a lower quality window. And yes, it is currently an employer's market, leaving only the better installers left working. Not sure what the going rate is up there, but when I was installing for them you could make a very comfortable living if you knew what you were doing (meaning, being able to R&R a 2-3 windows per hour depending on what was being removed and outside trim). For larger width windows, or high storm areas, I would go with a 6000 series..
Brett


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## EmilyP (Dec 28, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> Emily, please don't put words into my mouth. When have I said that vinyl windows are "far better than a Marvin or Andersen,"? As I stated previously, there are very nice wood windows available. If cost is no concern, a high-end wood window is probably the best product you can buy--I sell and install WeatherShield and Pella. That being said, there are some junk wood windows out there that are worse than much cheaper vinyl products....The main issue I have with what you are saying is your unequivocal trashing of vinyl windows. There is no basis for it. Once again you've flat out lied in your most recent statement saying that vinyl window warranties are not transferrable. THEY ARE. I'm guessing you could find the info on their websites, and I'm talking about decent quality windows like Alside/Revere, Siminton,. To address another lie, most decent vinyl windows come with constant force balances, not block and tackle (although sagging due to a balance issue would be warrantied anyway). As far as lie #3, stress cracks, I have had to replace a few sashes due to stress cracks in both vinyl and wood windows and never had any issue getting it warrantied....
> In summary: There are great high-end wood products, there are great vinyl products, they each have pros and cons and you are doing your client a disservice if you don't offer both and give an HONEST and INFORMED breakdown of the differences. Lastly, as may or may not have been previously stated in this thread, a window is only as good as the installation...How many windows have you installed to have such strong opinions on the subject?
> ...Also, please note the "sticky" at the top of this message board posted by the moderator:
> 
> ...


OK, I'll have all my cusomters contact you with there stress cracks issues after a year on vinyl windows. The reason it happened it was about 10- to 20-degree minus and the glass cracked. It happen to me most recently as of a couple of weeks ago, Silver Line and Jeld Wen both had window stress cracks just over a year, I went out and reported into the companies my self and they more less told me and the customer to pound salt. I also have read the warranties on Jeld Wen vinyl and silver line and they did not have transfer warranties, unless something has changed recently, and yes siminton does have a transferrable warranty. 
I understand your point about this should not be a hate forum about windows, I'll try and do better the next time, but vinyl should not be compared to a top of the line wood window.


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## lucky8926 (Feb 19, 2009)

I understand that the quality of installation is just as important as the window quality. I asked if they (my local WW) if they contract out to any company and they said their contractors work only for them. I am going to schedule the install when I will be off so I can watch them work. In the chance they mess something up labor IS included in the warranty. ALSO in the event of cracked vinyl due to..... Well anything it's covered under the warranty. He (once again the Local WW salesman) is checking for me to see if the 4000 series qualifies for the new energy star rating of a U factor of .30 or less so I can get extra $$ on my taxes next year. He said if they don't they had mentioned a price reduction on the 6000 series because they do meet the requirements. He said hopefully he will know something this week.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

EMILY P said:


> OK, I'll have all my cusomters contact you with there stress cracks issues after a year on vinyl windows. The reason it happened it was about 10- to 20-degree minus and the glass cracked. It happen to me most recently as of a couple of weeks ago, Silver Line and Jeld Wen both had window stress cracks just over a year, I went out and reported into the companies my self and they more less told me and the customer to pound salt. I also have read the warranties on Jeld Wen vinyl and silver line and they did not have transfer warranties, unless something has changed recently, and yes siminton does have a transferrable warranty.
> I understand your point about this should not be a hate forum about windows, I'll try and do better the next time, but vinyl should not be compared to a top of the line wood window.


I don't disagree with anything you've said here... I don't feel that Silverline or Jeld-wen are considered high-end vinyl windows. If they were they'd probably have a better warranty---that is why I install a better product(IMHO), with a better warranty which covers stress cracks and is transferrable. If you sell any vinyl windows, I'd recommend that you do the same to eliminate some frustration.


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## sdj (Mar 2, 2009)

I"ve been selling and installing windows for over 30 years.There is good and bad in almost every product you buy.The best way I''ve found ,if you are to hire a contractor is referrals and if you decide to use a company that was referred to you,try using the same installation crew as well.Also not a big fan of V.W.D. windows,never heard of the other company.GOOD LUCK


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## fhivinylwindows (Jun 11, 2006)

EMILY P said:


> ............. but vinyl should not be compared to a top of the line wood window.


You are right Emily, you should compare top of the line vinyl windows with top of the line wood windows. Comparing a top of the line ____ with a bottom of the line ____ would just be silly. :thumbsup:


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## fricandfrac (Feb 12, 2009)

Hey,fixie...What do you think about Sunrise windows. The guy that came to my house seemed pretty stuck on this brand. The frame was filled with some foam stuff and they supposedly qualify for the rebate???? I was veering toward Simonton.


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

My opinion regarding any brand of windows is this. Although a BRAND name of windows may have a great reputation, the end result is dependent on Who actually makes the windows,( some have more than one manufacturing plant. And most importantly, who is doing the install, what qualifications do they have ie: years of experience training etc. So a good company will be not only willing but have available to you the consumer an up to date list of RECENT customers that will allow you to call or visit to see that companies workmanship. Also the written warranty ( read carefully) is also important. In regards to qualifying for a rebate, the rebate company ( government) should be able to provide you with a list of companies and the products that qualify. Also the BBB ( Better Business Bureau) would have a list of complaints listed against companies. 
Hope this is of some help.

Cheers


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## Siding Man (Apr 16, 2009)

fixiechick said:


> I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are compareable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.
> 
> Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!


I am quite familiar with Great Lakes vinyl replacement windows, having sold and installed over 1200 of them over the past 20 years. Excellent product. In the price range you are working in there isn't likely a better window. Climate Shield is O.K., but kind of generic. 
If by chance you would be interested in a more top line window for just a little more money, I would recommend the Heat Mirror Window from Shelby Vinyl Products of Shelby, Ohio.


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## muaII (Sep 20, 2007)

Ron6519 said:


> I stayed away from installing vinyl windows for years. As a contractor I would see house after house with issues. The two most prevalent were broken glass seals and broken balances. Many from companies that were no longer in business. It seemed every Tom, Dick and Harry were opening vinyl window companies back in the '70's and '80's. And most of them were crap.
> I finally came accross a company as a result of one of my customers buying a house with 65 windows. The previous owner had replaced about 18 windows with vinyl back in 1989. I love it when the window companies put their name and made date in the spacer between the glass. This was in 1998 and all the windows were in great shape. I found out where they were and have been using them since. I haven't had one call back with these windows.
> You just need to find the right company.
> Ron


what is the name of theis company? Cost is a big factor, but not the only factor. Ww want to replace our windows, but not again. \my husband is 70 and we want windows that will at least function well as long as we live here,


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