# REALLY need help with heat pump troubleshoot.



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

First. Scroll compressor have no valves in them.

Reversing valves need to have pressure to switch over. So a low charge can cause what your seeing.

If you clipped the wires of the RV, and its not a Rheem/Ruud heat pump. Then you will only get heat from it, when you get it o work.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

How much pressure do I need to get the RV to switch? Can I assume it is short circuiting until a certain pressure it met? This is a Tempstar unit. guy that visited was rather ignorant on these and just indicated to cut the wires to the RV. I sent him on his way because I do not like people hacking stuff they do not understand. 

My understanding was the RV was without power, it is in cooling mode. With power, it reverses the system for heating. Because I have little to lose here, I am about to just chop that RV out of the equation. Honestly, my gut is telling me there is absolutely no flow going through the A coil yet we know it is not 100% plugged so that leads me to think the compressor is bypassing or not working at all. The system was supposed to be working when removed and here we are. Because of the scroll design, (no valves), I guess it would be prudent to think it could be worn out and not able to produce a delta P but since there is a slight pressure increase when running, I really think I should see some decrease on the low side. 

Do you have any drawings for an RV I can look at? It looks like the high side pressure comes in on the bottom and possibly operates the valve somewhere. There is a solenoid but I assume that is only to open an operating passage or gate.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

On tempstar. When the RV is de-energized. It is in heating mode.

The solenoid opens and closes the path to the pilot valve. that then moves the RV to either heat or cooling position.

Wouldn't matter if it did have valves. You couldn't get to them, or get replacement valves for it. Hermetic Recip compressors are made to be non serviceable.

If the RV is stuck, it won't move no matter what you do. Depends how long it sat. Might need almost the full charge back in it to get the RV to work again.

it was probably running like this when they took it out of service.

If your just going to use it for cooling, you don't need the RV.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

I agree and am looking at just cutting out the RV but to be honest, if I can get it to go, I would be fine with that. I have run power to the RV (240V) and no dice on anything. Just does not seem to move 22 through the A coil at ALL. 

Again, I am trying to determine how much 22 might be needed in the system to force the RV to work in normal conditions.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Since that should be a 24 volt coil. I bet it didn't work being fed 240 volts.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

beenthere said:


> Since that should be a 24 volt coil. I bet it didn't work being fed 240 volts.


well, maybe for an instant or two.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

RV solenoid is 240V. Was originally routed to line voltage and wiring diagram confirms that.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Do you have the suction guage on the true suction port? If it's in heating mode then both LL and suction ports at the service valves will read the same.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

The suction gauge is on the 3/4" line returning from the A coil. There are a couple other ports on the side that I have not firmly IDd just yet but run internally to the condenser. I just ran another test and with the liquid side valve closed, the suction side rises fast instead of dropping. Because I do not know heat pumps, I am not sure if this is a normal condition for heat pumps. I will have to see if there is another port I can get at for another suction pressure. 

I know the reversing valve is getting power BUT I have not verified if the solenoid valve is actually doing anything. Can I remove the solenoid without disturbing the charge? 

Right now pressures are very low at 50lbs not running and both climb right on up there to 120lbs. Not really looking like a compressor problem IMO. I am still leaning on RV right now and about the just cut that thing out and solder things back solid and remove the heat pump ability. Just do not want to jack with it if the charge of the system is all that is the issue here.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

BTW with the reversing valve not energized it will be in heating mode. Will have to take your word that it's a 240 volt coil even though I've NEVER seen a split system use anything but a 24 volt coil on the reversing valve. They hook up to the defrost control board and not the contactor.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

No need to remove the solenoid but you can without losing charge. With it energized the screw that hold it on will be magnetic. Check and see if it pulls on an iron tool such as a screwdriver.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

You should be able to hear the RV reverse back & forth if it's working.. I'm not saying it's not correct but,I've never seen 1 on 240 v ..


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

viper said:


> RV solenoid is 240V. Was originally routed to line voltage and wiring diagram confirms that.


 Viper, is it possible you mistook 240vlot for 24 volt? That HP is made by ICP and they use 24volt coils.(Iknow what I said but I have had trining on HPs. Just not serving them) I'm an ICP dealer so if you give me the model number I might be able to get a definitive answer.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

If it's connected to 240 v. Someone's let the smoke out & I don't think it's going to work


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

I have the RV hardwired right now just to bypass any other electronic issues. It is tied in with the power to the compressor. I just checked resistance again and it is 540 ohms. Guaranteed if that was a 24V coil, it would be open right now for sure. I have not yet verified if it is functioning though. Regardless, I would happy to see heat at the A coil to confirm that something is working right... That solenoid is CHEAP. I just do not think that is it. Too many years in industrial automation. 

I still would like to learn how much charge a system might need to properly actuate the valve? Should only a small charge be enough? I have heard of people running the head pressure up to break them free. It has been sitting for 5 yrs powered down so might be stuck in whatever mode. 

I would like to understand this a bit better, if it is normal for both pressures to go high when in heat mode, how do we get heat exchange across the A coil? I would expect to see the normal liquid side to show lower pressures like it is back feeding the system. Is that not accurate?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

That 3/4 inch line. IS NOT A SUCTION LINE in heat mode.

What model number is this unit. no residential unit has a 240 volt RV coil.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

5 YEARS?????

How was it prepped for storage?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

OP has been asked for model more than once.

Why won't he give it up?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> That 3/4 inch line. IS NOT A SUCTION LINE in heat mode.
> 
> What model number is this unit. no residential unit has a 240 volt RV coil.


I went back fifteen years on my ICP product manuals.

_ can't find a one with 240volt coil. The voltage should be listed on the coil_ but the OP won't respond to any of the recommendations or information we 
_*ask for. 

*_


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

Here is the wiring diagram and unit specs if that help anyone.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't remember exactly how much pressure it takes to push the reversing valve viper but it's a very small amount, like 5 psi. Should be a label on the coils of that solenoid and it will say the voltage.
You won't feel heat coming from the indoor coil untill the charge gets close to correct. In heating mode you have high pressure gas in the 3/4 and 3/8th line. It will turn to low pressure gas in the outdoor coil. The true suction will be tapped into where the suction line goes into the actual compressor. Usually it's the lower of the second set of ports you see.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Well that wiring diagram clearly shows a high voltage coil on the reversing valve. If it's energized and not switching over then there's not a lot of options other then remove it. Try energizing and de-energizing the RV several times first


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

viper said:


> Here is the wiring diagram and unit specs if that help anyone.



Jeeze....would have killed ya to post that sooner.

Your unit takes 92 oz of r22.

I don't have that model in my specs. That 867 80122 sounds like a sears number.

But I only went back 15years. Yours is twenty years old.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

It's twenty years old too. Kinda old. Mechanical parts jam badly.

Anything could have gotten inside it. You said in another post it was not hooked up to the line set. When you brazed in the drier did you use a bi-flow or single direction filter drier?


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

was it stored with the refrigerant in it or empty ?? may have moisture in the unit if it was empty


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Get an accurate scale and weigh in the charge. Heat pumps are critically charged and a few ounces makes a big difference. That unit is 1990, 20 yrs old. I seem to find quite a few of those era units/ACs with worn out compressors at 15 yrs old.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

Marty S. said:


> Well that wiring diagram clearly shows a high voltage coil on the reversing valve. If it's energized and not switching over then there's not a lot of options other then remove it. Try energizing and de-energizing the RV several times first



I can rig something to latch it separately. Should I be able to hear it? I did beat the crap out of it with a hammer while running. No dice. I have a feeling it is done. My gut is to just remove the stupid thing and hard line everything as an AC only. I have no use for a heat pump and seems a cheaper and more reliable option.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> It's twenty years old too. Kinda old. Mechanical parts jam badly.
> 
> Anything could have gotten inside it. You said in another post it was not hooked up to the line set. When you brazed in the drier did you use a bi-flow or single direction filter drier?



The dryer is one way but I only want to operate this as an AC. Obviously if things work on the cooling side, it should be fine. 

I honestly do not know if there was charge left in the unit. My brother was working with it before I got on site and I never checked in the years of sitting in the shop. 

Is the charge that critical for AC mode ore purely for heat pump mode? Remember that I am only using this "heat pump" because the price ""was"" right (not so much anymore). I just needed an AC... The RV is just a bonus..:thumbup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

To get efficiency and proper heat out of it it needs a proper charge otherwise it gets very inefficient. Not too critical on AC. At 20 yrs old it probably has a piston reciprocating compressor. Scrolls where not very common then and were VERY expensive then.. A scroll looks like a perfect vertical cylinder about 8-10 " in diameter. A recip looks oblong. I would just go buy a cheap Goodman online and ditch this worn out old beast.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

QUICK QUESTION

I want to remove the solenoid for the RV. How do I do that? Does not look like it can just unscrew. Is there a schrader or something that will keep from a total refrigerant loss? I have a feeling that the needle valve it is supposed to pull is stuck. I have had success with this in industrial stuff. If I can get it out, I can probably make it work again.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

yuri said:


> To get efficiency and proper heat out of it it needs a proper charge otherwise it gets very inefficient. Not too critical on AC. At 20 yrs old it probably has a piston reciprocating compressor. Scrolls where not very common then and were VERY expensive then.. A scroll looks like a perfect vertical cylinder about 8-10 " in diameter. A recip looks oblong. I would just go buy a cheap Goodman online and ditch this worn out old beast.



This is a Copeland scroll, guaranteed. Again, I am only wanting this for AC. Willing to bypass, rig, fix, duct tape, even throw rocks at it to let the cold out.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Read my post above yours for more info. Should just pop off somehow. The refrig circuit is self contained and the solenoid wraps around a plunger/piston which is inside the valve body.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

does the compressor look like this 



scroll
 or like this






reciprocal


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Google " heat pump reversing valve" lots of pics and info out there.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

It's twenty years old.



My question is this: Since it was open to the air and you brazed in a drier how much of a vacuum did you pull?

Like Marty said you have so much moisture in the system your comp oil could be sludged. 

I got a feeling you are going to encounter a lot of system problems.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

All over it Yuri. Finally making sense, however, that means the actual needle valve is not accessible. I might try a little heat in that region to see about freeing up that needle. I see now how things work and do you think you can actually get the coil off without hitting something??? Well no. I would have to cut some stuff to do that. Regardless, I think we are inching close to cutting the RV out.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

kenmac said:


> does the compressor look like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ICP was using Scrolls in their equipment in 1990, Ken.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> It's twenty years old.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the system was plugged on everything. Rubber wedge plugs and duct tape at the time. However, I cannot answer if the unit remained charged.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> ICP was using Scrolls in their equipment in 1990, Ken.



Guaranteed, it is a scroll guys. Cylinder shape, replacement part IS a scroll, comp says "scroll" on it, etc. It is a scroll


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

viper said:


> Guaranteed, it is a scroll guys. Cylinder shape, replacement part IS a scroll, comp says "scroll" on it, etc. It is a scroll


Yeah but is it a SCROLL?:laughing:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Heating it will RUIN it. I changed lots of them on the old green Yorks and we had to wrap them in a wet cloth and not over heat them or they warp/stick/malfunction etc etc. VERY easy to get contamination in the pilot tube of them. You will learn lots in the process though.:thumbup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Thats a Sears model as I recall. They did things "differently" and speced their own requirements. Thats why you got a 240 volt coil.

Although I don't recall them having it. The diagram shows it.

If you beat on the RV with a hammer. Its done for.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

beenthere said:


> Thats a Sears model as I recall. They did things "differently" and speced their own requirements. Thats why you got a 240 volt coil.
> 
> Although I don't recall them having it. The diagram shows it.
> 
> If you beat on the RV with a hammer. Its done for.



Is tapping bad? 

I aux wired the solenoid and it make a hell of a click when powered so it sure sounds like something is opening, However, I realize this is just the pilot valve that further runs pressure over to open the real deal. Frustrating to say the least....


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Any dings will stop the cylinder from moving.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)




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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHKBa_JvUAo

At least the metal can be recycled.:yes:


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


>


 

If it's full of moisture . That's likely where it will be


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

Well, I did locate my true suction side and sure enough, Low side drops like a rock to near zero and high side goes to 110 or so. static right now is only 40lbs. My feeling is the compressor is fine and I just proved that the RV is stuck in heat mode. My plan is just to get some fittings and bypass the whole mess and recharge and go from there. If it fails later, at least I do not have much into it!!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

But will the patient survive the surgery doc?


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

viper said:


> Well, I did locate my true suction side and sure enough, Low side drops like a rock to near zero and high side goes to 110 or so. static right now is only 40lbs. My feeling is the compressor is fine and I just proved that the RV is stuck in heat mode. My plan is just to get some fittings and bypass the whole mess and recharge and go from there. If it fails later, at least I do not have much into it!!


Almost all heat pumps have a bi-flow drier in them. Make sure you remove that when the system is empty and you're performing the reversing valvectomy. Use lot of dry nitrogen and break the vacuum with it several times. Get it down to 500 microns and it might last another summer or another 10 summers, who knows.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> But will the patient survive the surgery?


"and the Survey SAYS:......."

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I wish Viper well but I must say a twenty year old system is not long for this world.

I would swap the oil out on that unit to give it a fighting chance and install a suction line clean up drier along with a new LLD. Vac down to 500 microns three times and weigh in the charge.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

*Running like a top!*

Got that reverse valve BS all bypassed and system runs like a top. Compressor is very quiet, pressures look perfect, and delta T across the A coil is spot on. We sniffed for leaks and found nothing. So far I am pretty happy with my 20yo system. I will have to check back in next year for a report:thumbsup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

What was you final pressure and delta T.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

*Maybe spoke too soon??*

:huh:

I tested the delta T across the system when we first charge and were around 15F which I accepted. It has now dropped to 10F but is pumping 2gal/min from the air right now. It was VERY humid in the house and ambient is 100% humidity right now. 

Pressures were IIRC, 240/75 and ambient was 85F. I am starting to wonder a bit. To be honest, if the pressures are in range, what else is there? The only thing I can think of here is moisture in the system. I had a friend/HVAC pro of 20 yrs here to assist and he was very happy with how things were looking. We did not install a sight glass so I cannot test that now... 

Thoughts?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

10* no good.
I think you got non condesables in the system.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

Moisture? Mice?

System got another liquid filter/dryer and system was purged with nitrogen, then sucked down for 30 min.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Suction seems too high and discharge too low to me. Possible worn compressor. Shut it down and wait 10 mins for the pressures to equalize and everything calm down. Then record the pressure and compare it to a pressure temp chart. Should match the outdoor temp. If it is higher then you got non condensibles in the system.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Scroll don't wear like recip. Not the problem. Your head is too high for your ambient.

You did not evacuate well enough. Half hour on a pump after sitting open for five years ain't nothing.

Need to get down to five hundred microns.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

30 minutes doesn't mean it was vacuumed long enough.

After being open as long as that unit was. 30 minutes is a short vacuum.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

AAARRRRGHHHH......we are all repeating what the other is saying:laughing:


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

beenthere said:


> After being open as long as that unit was. 30 minutes is a short vacuum.


 
Indeed it is..1 last last week took 3 hrs & 2 oil changes to get the microns down


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

I guess my ignorant question of the day would be what is the point of a drier if moisture is still an issue here? If they work, how long would it take to remove the moisture? I do realize that there may have been moisture int he system and right now that sight glass is looking pretty smart. The system did have tape over all the ends but I realize that does NOT cut it. Just want o point out that there was an effort there.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Sight glass? You charged by sight glass???????????????


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The drier is a precautionary flow device. It's intended to be used in conjunction with properly evacuated system.

You have moisture in the oil. That could takes hours or longer to remove. A micron gauge would have told you that. 

Also did you use fresh oil in the pump?


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

kenmac said:


> Indeed it is..1 last last week took 3 hrs & 2 oil changes to get the microns down


Ken, you bring up a valid point about moisture in the oil. I honestly cannot remember if the valves on the unit were closed or not and cannot remember what oil is used with R22. I know PAG oil can straight suck up some water BUT in my automotive experience, it has rarely been an issue and either the drier cleans it up or it does not affect the system. That may be totally moot for rezy AC work.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Sight glass? You charged by sight glass???????????????



Not at all, just saying I did not install one and they are good for detecting the amount of moisture in the system. Obviously not a micron gauge but something for reference anyway.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

viper said:


> Not at all, just saying I did not install one and they are good for detecting the amount of moisture in the system. Obviously not a micron gauge but something for reference anyway.


My bad.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

The drier will only remove so much.. They do have a limit


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

*Update*

After reinstalling the return grills and adding an air filter, that retarded the air flow enough to get better numbers. As well things are starting to shape up now. I did not test humidity but it was likely VERY near 100% with rain pouring here. I am dumping 2gal/hr right now and that certainly would change my delta. 

I retested right above the A coil compared to return air temp and I am at 22F. Looks pretty good to me. Testing at the vents shows about a 12F delta. This house has not seen AC for a year so I suspect the wood and such are pretty moist and will take some time to dry out!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

How is it that you always ...aw the heck with it....just an occupational hazard when a guy volunteers his time.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

I guess I do not follow.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Well you might take this wrong and I certainly don't want any hard feeling
but I think you just might be pulling my leg with this whole thing.


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## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> .aw the heck with it....just an occupational hazard when a guy volunteers his time.


 

So,, were not getting a paid for this ??? I thought Obama was sending everybody a check


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Well you might take this wrong and I certainly don't want any hard feeling
> but I think you just might be pulling my leg with this whole thing.



Not sure which part but I will post pics today on the mess. What actually happened in testing was my friggin meter sucks. I can rotate my K thermocouple wire in the air stream and get 10*F difference!!! IE, what I thought was a 10*F at the vent was actually closer to 15-18*F. I learned this will testing at the A coil. I have a vent that is cut right into the plenum so I can get right to it. I noticed that when I rotate the thermocouple, the temp changes. That is really irritating and I will have to look into that matter. Possibly needs reterminated. 

Never the less, the house pulled down to 68*F over night and kicked down. All seems to be running good here. House leaks like crazy so this 2.5T unit is probably matched about right.


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