# Jim's downstairs bathroom project



## Jim F

This is my first major renovation project in almost 15 years in this house. A little background. The shower hasn't worked in many years due to the fact that the drain worked itself loose and the flange nut rusted so it could not be tightened. Caulks and adhesives were such a temporary fix, I'd turn around and it would be leaking into the crawlspace again so I eventually gave up on that approach. The bathroom had a dryer vent running under the subfloor that was likely leaking since installation and before we owned the house. The moisture from the dryer vent and the leaky shower caused a lot of damage to the subfloor and floor joists. Three joists severely rotted and two others weakened. 

Truthfully, the house has needed a lot of repairs for a number of years but I was always short of cash or time or both. We finally paid off our house two years ago and got a HELOC this past fall to make renovations. The house has more than doubled in value since we bought it (Provided everything is in good repair) so it is well worth our while to borrow against the line of credit to renovate. 

The house and the garage roofs both needed replacing. That took a chunk of out of the HELOC so I'm trying to do what I can (I'm a CT Tech, not a carpenter). I got the bathroom successfully gutted. We were originally planning to put in a Neo Angle corner shower but did not have enough wall space from the corner to the window. Those things look really flimsy anyhow unless you spend some major bucks.The bathroom is 5 X 8 so decided on a bathtub along the 5ft wall opposite the toilet and sink. This will limit our floor space so I'll have to get creative with that, maybe an inset wall-mount cabinet over the toilet. 

The center joists were naturally sagging so decided it would be wise to hire a professional to sister the joists and level the floor. The rest I'm doing myself including new tub drain and supply lines. My plan is to use PEX for the tub. The copper lines to the sink and toilet are through the joists that have to be reenforced so the will come out and be replaced by PEX also. Everything will be new except the toilet, most of the ceiling and the upper 4ft of the drywall(greenboard). 

Posters on this site convinced me it would be wise to purchase the Kohler Villager cast iron tub for strength and durability. I will hire a couple of my son's friends to help us haul that 317lb monster into place. I plan to use one of the new backer boards or maybe the tried and true Durrock around the tub under the glue-on surround instead of green board. Tiles would look nice, but too ambitious for my time frame. I may try my hand at tiling on a smaller project. You know, start small and work your way up.

I will post more pictures as the project progresses.


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## Jim F

*Drawing for new bath tie in*

This is the proposed tie in for the bathtub that is replacing the old shower which had a drain centered toward the opposite wall. Theis is the original position of the p-trap for the washer drain. It seems a little far away and I'm wondering why they put it there but it has always worked. 

I'm also wondering about things such the location of the new bath p-trap in relation to the tee, the positioning of the new tee, the posiition of the two p-traps to each other. My local plumber tells me that the 5 foot rule covers the position of the vent relative to all this (keep in mind that this is not to scale). 

I would appreciate any input.


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## oh'mike

Jim----You are missing a vent for the tub,also the vanity sink is not vented--

If you don't get a vent in closer to the tub P-trap you may end up with a slow drain--Mike--


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## Jim F

The vanity drains into the main vent so I guess the is supposed to double as the sink vent (wet vent?). The bottom picture above sort of shows this. Everything is as the builders installed it except the t for the bath. That one vent is supposed to work for all four fixtures. The top picture above shows where the shower drain used to come back and t in. The tape over the end is where I cut the shower p-trap. The bath will actually have a shorter run to the vent than the shower had. I intend to have it inspected for safety. I'm thinking I should .get my plumber out to check it out in the dry fit stage. I will try to post some pictures after I dry fit if I can get some good ones in the crawl space. I find it's difficult enough to take pictures that show any kind of perspective in the 5x8 bathroom space.


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## oh'mike

Jim--I sure do understand about photographing a bathroom.
Two weeks ago I finished up a bathroom,easily the smallest I've ever done--4x7 1/2 feet.

shower,toilet and tub--I wanted a picture of it ,I thought the tile looked nice--couldn't do it.

Good Idea to have your plumber check out the drains and vent--it's difficult to offer useful advice without actually seeing the site.

It looks to me that you are doing a fine job in a difficult room--that cobbled up back wall adds a challenge.---Mike---


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## Gary in WA

Just a side thought... Is it possible to remove/replace the bathroom door so it swings away from the bathroom instead of into it? Or would cause more problems?

The sistering isn't doing much if they are cut into pieces or partway through without replacing the air gap with solid wood....

Be safe, Gary


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## Jim F

*Sort of dry fitted drains*

Here is what I've got so far with the dry fitting. The washer drain comes in from the right and I plan to tie that in with a wye where it is intersecting the bath drain. I took a 1 1/2 inch piece out of where the bath and laundry drain drop into the main. There was no drop whatsoever before. It just went horizontal across the bottom of the joists until it dropped into the main. 

Everything from the bathroom and the laundry drain across the hall is served by that one main vent. I don't think this is legal. My plumber tells me that some guys take liberties with the five foot rule. I don't know how the contractor that originally built this addition in 1990 got this by inspection or if he even had it inspected. 

My inlaws were living in the house when the addition was built and when we bought it from them, we did not have any sort of inspection. I know a lot of homeowners will cheat and bypass the inspection but I want it to be safe for my family plus there is a strong probability we will be selling in the forseeable future. Any problems with anything so far?


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## Jim F

*Sistered joists.*

Gary, the sistering you see in the first set of pictures was done by my wife's stepfather about 2 years ago to help us out. The floor was OK for a while, just a little squeeky but it did not last. He did the best he knew how and I don't hold that against him. I now have the old rotted joists properly sistered and leveled by professionals. It cost $905 but worth it and they came right out and got it done fast. I'm willing and able to do for myself to save money but I know my limits. When it's time to call in the big guns, I'm not too proud.


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## Jim F

*More progress, Pics to follow.*

Now my PC doesn't want to read my card. I have a new cable on order to replace the lost one so pics will follow eventually (maybe the card reader will start working again). 

Since last posting I've installed a stack vent pipe through the attic space tying into the main vent. That was a day in itself. I decided to replace the fan/light combo with a newer, quieter and more powerful model since I had the ceiling torn open installing the vent. Got a good look at the architecture of the roof. They really skimped on the wood up there. 

Today I cut the ceiling even across so I will have a 3'4" by 8' section to replace with an opening for the vent fan (I hope I don't screw up the measurements for that cut). Experience tells me to cut this atleast 1/4 or 1/2 inch short to make sure it fits. I can always tape and mud. Also opened up the section of wall consealing the laundry stack preparing to replace the 1.5" stack with a 2". Found that the trap on the end of the laundry drain pipe was in fact the only trap. I was actually hoping to find one in the wall above floor level as I have learned this is proper. There will be one when I am done though. 

Still peicing together the new 2" pipe. I really did not want to go into the crawlsapce today, too cold. Tomorrow I will probably get and install the bathroom ceiling. I have to do this before the new furring strips go up. I find myself spending a lot of time getting supplies down the street if it's before 5 or Home Depot 20 miles awy if after 5. Also getting tools and supplies that are either in the garage, in the bathroom or in the crawlspace, usually not where I need them. A tool belt is starting to look like a good investment.:laughing:


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## Jim F

*Finally, more pictures to post.*

Got the new cable for my camera so have the transfer problem resolved (My life is about resolving problems since I took this project on).

These are of the attic branch vent add-on. While I had the ceiling torn open adding the vent I replaced the fan/light combo. It is much better to do this from the attic but I have wiggle room at best in the peak. I ma considering adding an access hatch in the bedroom closet out of sight. 

I also have the green board replaced. It was therapudic to tear out all that water damaged material and the disfunctional shower but it is also very nice to see it all starting to come back together. 

I could not find Durabond for the joints as was recommended so ended up just using green lid. We'll see how the taping job comes out, hopefully better than the kitchen ceiling. it depends on how much time and patience I can dedicate.


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## Jim F

*Final DVW dry fit.*

I was initially proposing to tie the bath and laundry drain into a double tee. Two problems with this: These two drains are in seperate bays, everything would have to be below joist level and more challenging to insulate. I was also concerned about the high volume from the washer backung up into the relatively short run of the tub drain. If my father was here, he could tell me by looking at it if that would be an issue. 

All the old 1.5 drain pipe was replaced with two inch except for the bath drain and trap of course. The bath trap arm loops around to give it the minimum 3" before the drop. The laundry trap is abvoe the subfloor and behind the 6" outer wall and should have adaquate insulation between it and the outside, 4 inches unfaced fiberglass or maybe I'll seal it in with the solid foam and great stuff. 

Open to any suggestions befor this all gets glued in. 

P.S. The bend will come out of that tee when it is glued.


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## Jim F

*Related Links*

Thought it might be worthwhile to cross-reference Threads started by me asking dumb questions related to my ongoing project related learning curve. 

Once the old insulation is out, how do I put it back together? Did they get it right the first time?

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/insulation-question-68391/ 

How about a bathtub that the kids won't trash?

http://www.diychatroom.com/f15/bathtubs-kohler-vs-american-standard-vs-crane-66092/

And now that I've got my tub, how do I put it in?
http://www.diychatroom.com/f80/any-last-minute-tips-installing-bathtub-66986/

And just how do rerout that old shower drain?

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/rerouting-shower-drain-bathtub-67404/

Partial rebuild of DVW ststem.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/bath-p-trap-related-tee-stack-vent-67895/

Oops!

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/used-wrong-type-pipe-thread-compound-68373/

I'm an old dog trying to learn new tricks. It's a process.


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## Jim F

Very close to the end. You would not believe the stuff that comes up to get in the way of finishing this thing. 

Got the tub in the alcove and the drain dry fitted together. My son and I rolled out of the garage, down the driveway up the lawn, in the front door using plywood sheets as we went. The two of us could lift it where we need to. 

Got the four feet on metal shims as recommended. It is level for the most part, just need to get one more shim under the front left foot to take a little wobble out of it. Got the backrail behind it at the right level. 

Looks like I may need to fur out the wall opposite the drain about 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Weighing the pros and cons to green board vs durock vs densshield behind the PVC surround. Really leaning toward the densshield. I know a bead of caulk will seal out the water but also know that caulk fails eventually. 

There also doesn't seem to be any practical way to secure it in place other than it's own 317 lbs and the underlayment against the apron. 

Open for comments. Progress pics following soon.


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## Jim F

*Finally, more progress pics*

More pictures as promised. 1) Drywall is in and painted in the upper half of the alcove. 2) New countdown timer for fan, switch and wall plate also new. 3) New fan mounted. 4) New medicine cabinet and lights are in. 5) Tub is fitted in the alcove. 6) I found my walls to be out of square. The 5 ft sides are even, the 8 ft sides are off by one inch. I followed bad Lowes advice in using drywall here in the first place but it is covered with Zinser oil primer and bath and kitcheen latex. Hopefully that should seal out the steam.

My questions at this point: Should I tear this all out and start over with durrock or similar top to bottom in the alcove? I am putting in a surround, not tile.

Could I get away with furring out my studs to meet the upper portion at some level and taping and feathering out the joint to make up that 1/2 to 1 inch gap?

My ratonal for finishing the top portion was to avoid working around my new tub with a ladder in the tub to get into those upper corners. I going to be kicking myself if I have to undo all of this, but I do want it to come out right.


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## Jim F

Additional pictures.


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## oh'mike

More pictures of the cat!

Jim--Why is the tub shimmed away from the studs?


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## Jim F

Good point Mike, somewhere, in my mind, I knew it had to butt up against the studs. I just wasn't making the connection. That means it will have to furred out 1/2 inch more along the back end, bummer.


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## oh'mike

I hated to be the one to point that out----
Can the tub be slid against the back wall--and then slid to the left,tight against the plumbing wall?

Then you need to figure out how best to fix the one inch oversize on the right hand wall.

The backer ( or wall board?) sets on top of the tub. Gap filled with firmset or caulk.

--Mike---


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## Jim F

I've got it tight up against the plumbing wall and that corner of the back wall with maybe a 3/4' gap in the rear corner and 1 3/4" on the wall opposite the plumbing wall. I'm thinking in terms of a slope in the wall above the surround as opposed to a tiny little bumpout shelf that could trap water drops. It's either that or tear out all the way up to the ceiling to fur out and redo those inside corners. There is going to be a transition close to the window which I may be able to partially hide with the window trim.

I'll have the kids home for another week before they start summer school so I don't expect to get much done between now and then. I had a new Cooper brand GFCI outlet fail-the hot screw just stripped out. And just got a replacement for that today. The Leviton I bought looks like a better bet.


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## Jim F

Mike what is firmset does it have brand name?


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## oh'mike

Thin set (Firmset) is a powdered cement adhesive used to glue the tiles to the walls or floor.

Forgive me if I confused you with the name Firmset--I bought all my supplies for many years from a tile store where I had worked---their brand was called firm set--I guess I fell into the habit of calling it by that name. I know a couple of other tile guys that call it by that name,too


There are two basic types--Unmodified --Just an all cement product--no latex included.

Modified---has powdered latex in the mix--this is the most popular.

As to brands--Mapei--Latacrete--Versabond (by Custom building products) and a dozen more.

Once hardened Thinset is unaffected by moisture. Adhesives in a bucket will return to liquid if they get 
wet---Big problem in a shower ---not worth taking a risk. Formulas were changed a few years ago
to meet new govt. regulations. 

There was a time when adhesives were an accepted stickum for tubs and showers--not any more.


You will need a hefty drill and a whip to mix the thinset.


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## Jim F

If I use durrock for my walls, would I be better off using thin set rather that silicone caulk there the tub meets the durrock? Then maybe the silicone for a bead between the surround and the tub. 

I had considered using Densshield but could only find 1/4" at Lowes. Most of the places around here that used to carry it stopped due to a fall off in demand. I noticed wonderboard is a lot heavier and stiffer than durrock, that must be used more for tile floors than walls.


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## oh'mike

If you are going to tile the walls--I suggest Durrock-(wonder board is O.K. to just harder to cut)

Install Durrock smooth side out for walls-(rough for floors)

Bring it to the top edge of the tub---that gap is filled with thinset as you tile. mesh tile tape can be used on corners and joints--this is done as you tile--do not tape before tiling--you will end up with a 
high spot--you will hate that--your tiles won't lay flat.

If you wish to waterproof the Durrock I suggest you look at HydroBan by Latacrete.
They have a website with a video.(Taping is not needed with hydroBan)

RedGuard is a brand I hear mentioned here a lot--It's a lot cheaper--I've never had a reason to check it out as the HydroBan has performed so well.

Ask away--Mike--


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## Jim F

More pics


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## Gary in WA

I'd add a stud (ripped or not) to get a full tile alongside the tub at floor to ceiling. Divide by tile with grout space for distance from corner..... tub is 30", minus the b.b., minus the tile/thinset thickness.... so you don't have to rip itty bitty tiles next to the tub. 

Be safe, Gary


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## Jim F

That's pretty much what Mike suggested. I don't know If youve noticed but the tub came up 1.5 inches short of reaching the original wall studs which is why I am able to face nail that 2x4 over the stud. But yeah, I can see now where it would be good to extent that out. wasn't seeing with that much clarity this afternoon so left it loose for now. I got the adjacend stud ripped and placed. That one was just shy of 1 1/4 inch so had to rip it off a 2x4. Don't own a table saw yet so used the circular saw. The corner looks to be about an 3/4 inch but havent measures it yet- hoping to get by with some 1x lumber there.

At any rate, glad to get back to it after the kids 2-week school break (they are in summer school now).


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## Jim F

*Walls furred out, finally!*

It took some doing but I finally got the all the wall studs plum and relatively even with each other. I still don't have a table saw so the ripped the furring strips with my craftman hand held circular saw which thankfully has a nice carbide blade. Also smoothed the strips out with a small surform board. 

I extended the one 2x out to the side of the tub That brings it right to the edge of my window sill. I can cut the sill down if I need to extend further. I'm not quit sure yet how I will transition that bump out along side that tub. I have the white 4x4 tiles purchased but no trim pieces or bull noses yet. I am open to ideas or even pictures about how to transition that edge. It sticks out 1 1/2 inches, the thickness of a 2x4. I am considering a 2x6 in that corner and it needs to be planed down some to be flush with the tub. But I think that part is just about done. 

My six year old got in the bathroom and drew a self portrait next to where the toilet is going to be on my new paint. Plus we gashed the new wall bringing in the tub but I think the door trim will cover that.


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## Proby

oh'mike said:


> If you wish to waterproof the Durrock I suggest you look at HydroBan by Latacrete.
> They have a website with a video.(Taping is not needed with hydroBan)
> 
> RedGuard is a brand I hear mentioned here a lot--It's a lot cheaper--I've never had a reason to check it out as the HydroBan has performed so well.


In what situations should one waterproof?


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## Proby

I have a question about a fitting in this picture. There is what looks like a hand tighten-able nut on the top of the p-trap piece. What is that for, so you can move the p-trap if necessary?












You can also see one in this picture, why isn't that just a glued fitting?


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## Jim F

It's the same fitting- the tub drain p-trap. I put it it there temporarily while trying to figure out how that would fit the best. If I use it permanently, I will leave myself access to it underneath for clean out purposes. The insulation under the floor is OCF rigid foam board- 4 inch total. Most likely I will swap it out for a glued trap.

Mike has mentioned Red Guard but he doesn't use it so can't recommend it. It is cheaper than the Hydro Ban and they sell the Red Guard at Lowes so I may use it. The Hydro Ban is probably better stuff for the higher price but I would have to order it online.


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## oh'mike

Proby and Jim---Waterproofing the walls is an option that gives you peace of mind and heads off future failure.

In a bath tub --where your major 'wet' area is protected by the tub,you are probably quite safe skipping the waterproofing.

However in a shower--especially one with a tiled base, waterproofing is a really good idea--I think absolutely necessary.

The process is quick and simple---Fill any voids and seams with thinset (mesh is not needed with Hydroban--Don't know about Redguard)

Using a paint brush,apply the waterproofer to the corners and edges--then roll in the Hydroban with a short nap roller. Add the recomended number of coats--then tile.


Latacretes web site has a nice video. Hydroban is used to waterproof pools and fountains--high quality product.---Mike---


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## Jim F

It's hard to know what to do about the waterproofing. I read that it is a good idea to use poly on the studs to prevent the water that seeps through the grout and durrock or to use a waterproof like Hydro Ban or Red Guard on the durrock to stop it there. I guess either way is acceptable since we are not talking about a lot of water. I feel like I should do something though because my kids take long showers.


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## oh'mike

Red guard is about $50---HydroBan about $110 per gallon.--The critical areas are the mixer wall and the back wall. 

One Gallon will do a tub or shower----It's an insurance policy.

Ceramic ,over durrock--properly grouted and caulked is safe without waterproofing in a tub.

The question you must ask yourself is--what if I didn't do every thing properly?---Mike--


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## Jim F

I think I'm on my way to doing a proper job of it. I've certainly read enough and asked anough questions. I was outside today working on a garage door but that is another thread. What are your thoughts on grout sealer Mike?


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## oh'mike

Grout sealer? It's mostly a 'feel good' thing in my opinion. Modern latex fortified grouts are not helped much with a sealer.

I don't use them. (Boy is that statement going to start a row)

I have seen more than one tile job spoiled when the sealer got on the face of the tile .

You will hear others who think they are great---I service my customers for years---I have never felt a need after cheching up on older installs.--Mike---


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## Jim F

Just a quick update, no pics. Finally got the tub drain hooked up. I used one of thos Fernco sanitary tees since I had such tight quaters to work in and no room for error with the PVC cement. That was a real lifesaver. The guy at HD told me they were approved for my use. I hope he's right, he is a retired plumber. I've become a familiar face at HD and Lowes. Before I can turn on my water, I have to finish hooking up my new Watts washer shutoff. Saved 10 dollars on that one on Amazon. I got the copper/PEX adapters and PEX fittings I needed for the Watts valve at HD today but ran out of crimp rings so have to go back to HD tomorrow just for those. Did I mention HD is 20 miles away? MY sone poured water down the drain with no leaks. It was nice to hear water running through the pipes and not on the ground.


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## Jim F

*Too much gap?*

I mounted my durock shimmed 1/4 above the tub rim. It actually looks to be a little more than 1/4 inch. I have read that the durrock should rest on the tub rim. The Kohler installation directions are not much help. They show a different flange. Anyone familiar with these cast iron tubs knows there is not much of a flange on them. Is the wall board supposed to actually help to hold the tub in place? My plan at this point is to either remount these resting on the rim or silicone that gap and the tile will sit no more that 1/8" above the rim then caulked. Just wondering if I need to revise or press on.


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## Jim F

It's been suggested that I use a ful tiles width on the sides of the tub. I have room to do that on the window side but not on the door side where I am really tight agains the door frame. I Will have to cut it done to half tile with had trim the door frame too but not sure how that will look. Open to suggestions.


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## oh'mike

Typically the rck is set right on the top of the tub flange----then the gap is filled with thinset AS you set the tile---with a gap that big the thinset might fall through--and leave a hole.

If moving the board down where it belongs is not a good option--Try mixing a small batch,kind of thick--Pack the void first(before tiling) Use a 6" drywall blade---That might take more than one pass to fill the gap---



The tile by the door---how does that layout work from the back wall?

It looks like about a 2" slice is right---If the door trim is thick enough,it is often neater to hollow out the back of the trim with a router or table saw and overlay the trim on top of the tile.(no cuts showing at the trim that way.

If no wood working tools--install trim first and cut tile to the trim---Mike---


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## Jim F

I would sooner lower the board. Of course I will drill new holes rather than trying to use the same ones 1/4 inch lower. Do you think the mesh tape and thin set as I'm tiling will fill the gap between upper and lower boards so I don't have to move the upper sheets down as well? 

I can dado out a strip of the door frame to go over the tiles. That sounds like less work. I really don't like the idea of ripping that frame member thinner. I think it's going to look strange dompares to the other two frame pieces. But, my only other option is to have that frame piece too close to the tub. I'm thinking I need to have the same width on each end of the tub so will probably go with 2 inches since the full 4 isn't an option by the door unless I want to have no frame at all. I think I will dry fit a few options first to see how they look before comitting permanantly. I can sacrifice a frame piece since I salvage the wood from the closet that used to be in that bathroom.

The wet test went well today. Nothing leaks in the bathroom so I can cut and install the durock on the wet wall. Then I should be able to start tiling.


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## oh'mike

Glad to hear that the plumbing checked out!

Your thoughts on dry fitting the tile to check the best(and easiest) is tried and true--

Best way to figure out what will fit on a three foot wall is to lay out three feet of tile!--Mike--


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## Jim F

Tiling day 1. I was reading through my old posts. In case you haven't noticed I did end up tearing out all that nice finished wall around the tub alcove and talked myself into tiling instead of a cheesy tub surround. There wasn't too much cost as far as wasted materials go. Drywall, mud and paint are relatively inexpensive. But it was a huge waste of time when you consider what it takes to mud, tape and paint. I think I will be much happier with the results. My main motivation for finishing this area first was so that I could reach the ceiling with a ladder. This was dumb since I can just as easily stand on the edge of my cast iron tub. I wouldn't want to try that with a fiberglass tub. 

There is a huge learning curve involved with tiling. One tip for first timers when mixing thin set mortar is when you think you have it mixed thick enough, you probably need to mix in more mortar. A little water goes a long way. Consider that this stuff has to stand up on a wall when you comb your trowel through it. I wound up calling Mike (oh'mike) that day because I thought I really messed up my mortar. He assured me that it would not be necessary to dump the batch and start over. I also spent a lot of time switching between a 1/4X1/4" square-notch and a 3/8X1/4" v-notch trowel before finally finding the right comb angle with the v-notch. The square notch was requiring too much cleaning out the grout lines. Also clean your grout lines before that stuff sets.


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## Jim F

Day two progress.


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## Jim F

Day three progress. I just took these pictures this morning. The work was done on Thursday. I had to work this weekend at the hospital which was the reason I had a 4-day weekend last week to start this. Saturday was spent at Six Flags New England with the family and my Brother-in-laws family. I think I have just enough thin set to finish the job so I have to cut all the rest of the tiles and plan it so I can do it all with one last batch. Otherwise, I will have to buy another 50 lb bag just to finish up.


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## gma2rjc

Nice job! It looks straight and clean.

I wish I had known about cleaning the grout lines when I tiled my bathroom floor. I'm sure a floor is much easier to tile than walls. 

Thanks for the tips and for keeping us updated.

Barb


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## Jim F

I finally got that last bit of drywall up below the window and in between the surround and window. All the seams are taped now just need to be feathered out. I had a small patch in between where it fell short of 48". I really didn't want to cut into the long side of a new sheet to make up the 51" I needed for that strip. Instead I made a modified "Chicago patch" with face paper on two sides instead of four. It worked well plus there is a single screw holding that patch in the middle of it. 

Included the cluttered windowsill since I commented on it in another post. 

My plan is to glue that plastic corner guard on with the can of 3M 77 in the picture. I hope that is the right one. There were four types at HD. It's hard to tell from the can labels. I am trying to bond durock on one side to the insice tape and mud, tile the durock side with bullnose tile and mud and paint the adjacent side of the corner. Am I on the right track?


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## oh'mike

Looking good so far!


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## Jim F

Some update pictures. Not much progress really but the tiles are all placed. I wound up with less than half tile width along the top primarily because I wanted to make sure that I had a near-full tile at the bottom. These pictures demonstrate how I compensated around the door trim and that new bumped out wall. I would have gone a full tile width on the edges but the inside door trim would have had to be shaved too narrow and would have looked odd. I am happy overall With the results. I just have to fill and paint the other side of the outer corner on the bumpout.

I could not believe the amount of time it took to scrape all that mortar out from between the tiles as well as cleaning it off the surfaces. This is mostly due to the fact that I started off with too large of a trowel size. 

I have a couple of questions about the grout. I get that I need to add the right amount of water to get the proper consistency then let it slake. I have read differing opinions about Portland based grouts. Some say to mist the joints first. This doesn't sound right to me. It just seems like that would dilute the grout and result in failure. Ant the other suggestion is to use damp paper towels on the tile surface while it cures for 3 days or a humidifier in the room. 

Do any of you tile guys do this? This is the grout I have http://www.homedepot.com/Polyblend/...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053. Thanks for your responses


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## oh'mike

Jim, The grout that you have chosen is a good one---Mix with cold clean water --about the consistancy of yellow mustard--

You don't want to do any of the water spraying goofyness--I suggest that ,as a novice, you do one wall at a time.--Use a soft white grout float--the disposable black sponge rubber ones tend to dig into the cracks and cause frustration.

Go back and forth several times and really pack the joints full--use the float like a squeegee--on an angle to the joints,to remove as much excess as you can--

Go have a small cup of coffee-----give the grout 10 to 15 minutes to set a little---

Then start the first 'break'(cleaning)--You will want to have 2 or 3 grout sponges and a couple of buckets of clean water---

The first break is to shape the joints and remove the majority of the excess grout---

Ring out your sponges almost dry--start cleaning using a gentle circular motion---don't try to actually clean the surface with the first break---just shape the joints and remove the majority from the face of the tile------You will probably only get 4 to 9 tiles before you need to flip the sponge---

Second break----no coffee this time--clean water --ring out the sponges almost dry--

All that should be on the tiles at this point is a messy smear---start wiping on a diagonal--

press the sponge flat with both hands and slowly pull the sponge and roll it as you pull --

You should get about 12 inches wiped before you flip the sponge and --press -slowly pull and roll up.


Final cleaning---at this point all that should be on the face of the tile is haze and a lot of small streaks---You can have another cup of coffee----Wait about 15 minutes--

Final wipe--if done correctly--the tile should (had better be) be clean and shiny--done except for the tiniest bit of streaks.

This time --go with the tiles,not diagonally--two hands on the sponge- press-pull and roll only about 12 inches --then flip the sponge and do another 12 inches--rinse ring dry and repeat--

Most beginners try to get to much cleaning out of a dirty sponge--Any one who has wiped up a glob of jelly knows the press and roll of the sponge----Good luck--Mike--


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## CoconutPete

Looking good!

I need to re-do our downstairs bath, but my wife will smack me with a frying pan if I try to start before we do the kitchen.


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## Jim F

CoconutPete said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I need to re-do our downstairs bath, but my wife will smack me with a frying pan if I try to start before we do the kitchen.


My kitchen needs to be redone also but the bathroom was barely functional even as a half bath. Lots of water damage and a failed shower. I hope to get back to it soon I just have too many other things going on. Maybe grout tomorrow.


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## Blondesense

Great directions, Mike.

I'd like to add a couple of common newbie mistakes to avoid if you haven't started yet.

First, don't get tired and think you can finish the grout clean-up the next day. Don't leave the haze on overnight. You might get away with removing a fine haze on a highly glazed tile the next day, but I wouldn't count on it. 

Second. Think of grout as cement. When cleaning up don't dump it down the sink or toilet. Toss it outside somewhere.


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## oh'mike

Blondesense--Good points--way to many posts that start,"How do I get the haze off of my tiles."


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## Jim F

The grouting went well. did that about two weeks ago. The wipe down got away from me slightly on the last wall, the plumbing wall, because I got my sons 19 and 6 involved in the floating part. The glazed tile is much more forgiving thankfully. I kept two buckets of rinse water and had my older son dumping it outside and refilling with the garden hose. 

I lost about two weeks as a result of my young son with mild Autism needing to be placed in a new classroom since the staff of his former classroom could not keep up with him. I took time to home school him during the two weeks until he could get into his new classroom. These are just the kind of things that come up and come between me and finishing this project. I am still debating about sealing the grout joints but it may be overkill.

Since then I have silicone caulked the corners, put PVC molding between the surround walls and ceiling. Now my wife wants me to continue that around the rest of the bathroom ceiling. I discovered that a pin nailer does not give the PVC enough hold and had to switch to the brad nailer. The molding is also glued in place with the bead of silicone I used in all those corner joints. All the nail holes also got silicone so they won't rust. Got a 4'x63" sheet of underlayment down which leaves about another foot to cover in the bathroom. I plan on extending that piece out past the doorway and under the door jambs to give a cleaner transition out into the hallway. 

The plan is to install vinal self-stick tiles onto the underlayment then I should be able to install the new vanity and old toilet and finally finish the bathroom before moving out into the hallway and laundry room.

Pics to follow soon.


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## Blondesense

Jim, sounds like you're almost done with your bathroom. I envy you. I'm still at the cement board stage.


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## oh'mike

I find if very hard to work on my own house---Projects seem to take forever---:laughing:


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## BigJim

Jim, that looks really good, I know you will be happy to have that behind you. Just a small trick when nailing trim where it don't seem to want to hold is shoot a nail at a 45°angle to the left and with the gun in the same place shoot a nail to the right at a 45° angle. The nails will criss cross and will usually hold.


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## Jim F

Good tip about cris-crossing the pin nails Jim. I did try to shoot them at an angle but did not think to cross them. The PVC is so soft, I'm not sure that some of then didn't shoot straight through even though I lowered my air pressure. The brads got the job done anyhow. They countersunk in the plastic so I could just fill in with silicone.

Got the rest of my underlayment cut and dry fit today, then read that it needs to acclimate to the room so I will leave that for another day before stapling it down. I am using the Sure-Ply that Lowes sells and went to their website for the instructions. It seems to be good stuff- costs about twice as much as Luan so it better be. Took the Luan back after I found out it is not good for damp envornonments. 

Have new pictures taken, hope to post them tomorrow or soon. Tomorrow, have to take #1 son to Oneonta for glasses and #1 daughter down to Binghamton to look at apartments so tomorrow is not looking good for work.


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## BigJim

Jim, I don't know how HD is up your way but down here a person needs to watch their plywood closely as it will delaminate. In critical places I will not chance their plywood.


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## Jim F

Some pictures of the finished surround. PVC molding on the ceiling. Delta Lewiston faucet.


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## Jim F

And some of the floor. You can see the floor was damaged beyond the bathroom from the dryer steam (refer back to first post). My focus has been on getting the bathroom back together but then I have to work on the hallway and the laundry alcove. I have also cut and dry fit the last piece of underlayment which extends out flush with the outer bathroom door jamb. Had to undercut the jamb to make room for the underlayment and vinal tile. Hope to have it stapled down today.


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## spaceman spif

Looks good and I'm jealous...my bathroom project is on hold while I try to get my deck finished before winter sets in and I'm also pulling up old carpet in the basement.

Quick question, and forgive me if you already discussed it earlier in this thread, but how did you cut the holes in the tile where the pipes come through? That's my next step in my bathroom.


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## Jim F

spaceman spif said:


> Looks good and I'm jealous...my bathroom project is on hold while I try to get my deck finished before winter sets in and I'm also pulling up old carpet in the basement.
> 
> Quick question, and forgive me if you already discussed it earlier in this thread, but how did you cut the holes in the tile where the pipes come through? That's my next step in my bathroom.


I bought a diamond head hole saw 1" diameter I think. They do sell wet hole saws but I didn't need it for these tiles I just went slow with my drill press. These are thin enough to where they don't generate too much heat. For the bigger cuts for the faucet, I used my wet tile saw. It wasn't too pretty but got the job done. The biggest challenge I found there was nothing I had to mark it stayed on the tile very long before the water washed it off. I think a grease pencil would have worked but I didn't have one and didn't want to take the time to try to find one at HD.


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## Jim F

jiju1943 said:


> Jim, I don't know how HD is up your way but down here a person needs to watch their plywood closely as it will delaminate. In critical places I will not chance their plywood.


I sure hope not with what I paid for this stuff http://www.sureply.com/ . HD doesn't carry it I got these sheets at Lowes. Stapled it down today. It's great having those little X's to tell you where to put your staples.


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## darenrogers

Jim F said:


> I sure hope not with what I paid for this stuff http://www.sureply.com/ . HD doesn't carry it I got these sheets at Lowes. Stapled it down today. It's great having those little X's to tell you where to put your staples.


I'm not familiar with the sureply product but it looks great, as do the other products from Patriot Timber. Great thread, good luck finishing it up.


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## Jim F

I had an interesting experience with the Sure Ply today. The self-stick vinyl tiles I've chosen (or should I say my wife chose) recommend using a self-stick primer on any porous surface. The wood laminate on the Sure Ply is very tight grained so I was skeptical as to whether I would need the primer. 

I called Sure Ply first and was told that their product is very moisture resistant but that I should check with the tile manufacturer. So I called Cryntel Eurostone support specialist next who told me that I should definately use the primer. 

This is a very watered down milky white substance in a bottle. I used very little of it on the floor. It mostly puddled on the surface as I rolled it on. I'm thinking it is more appropriate for Luan as the Sure Ply absorbed little or none of it.

Now I'm thinking that this was probably an unnecessary step for the Sure Ply underlayment. Any thoughts?


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## oh'mike

I always use the primer over any wood underlayment--Just a good practice.


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## Jim F

The end is near for the bathroom anyway. I have been taking pictures and will post them soon, probably when everything is done. The floor is finished with gray self-stick vinyl tiles. Not the best choice for a bathroom I know but you cant beat them for ease of installation. 

My plan for today was to install the vanity, toilet as well as replace door and window trim and baseboard. I got as far as dry fitting the vanity. Those heating pipes and toekick heater presented a unique challenge. I spent a lot of time cutting the bottom face plate to fit around those pipes. Also had to convince the heater unit back about an inch. 

My wife wanted it done by Thanksgiving since wwe are having a house full. She has lowered her expectations to just having it functional. Among the problems I didn't need is the fact that the replacement drywall behind the vanity is somewhat bowed in the middle. That will present a challeng since the backsplash doesn't sit flush. 

Have to get a few things at Lowes tomorrow- drain assembly, tailpiece maybe a new trap, clear silicone. Have to take my son to an appointment tomorrow early afternoon then to work by 3. Add to that, call tonight. Hopefully, it stays quiet. I may be burning the midnight oil tomorrow night to get the toilet installed in time.


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## Jim F

Just a follow up to my last post. Still no time to post pics. I did not make the deadline for the Thanksgiving guests. Spent what time I had on Thursday getting my vanity cabinet positioned and level. It had to be positioned perfectly to accommodate the top and still leave access to the toekick heater. Started putting the sink fixtures on Early Thursday morning after work only to discover that the fancy and expensive Delta fixtures my wife chose all those months ago are for an 8' spread and I have 4" holes. I never even considered that. Learned one more new thing. Both Lowes and HD were closed for the holiday so that had to wait till today.

Went to bed and got up Thursday morning. While my wife and daughter were preparing the dinner I was working on getting the toilet installed. Put up the baseboard behind and beside the toilet then mounted the toilet. Then I discovered that the old supply line had a different valve fitting. I had replaced the old valve with a 1/4 turn ball valve. Found the right 12" supply line at K-Mart of all places (They were open on Thanksgiving). Got it home to discover that it was now an inch too short. So that left us without a toilet as well.

Today I returned the Delta Lewiston 8" faucet to Lowes. They gave me store credit since it had been so long and I no longer had the receipt. They had two Lewiston models for the 4" hole setup but they were both sold out. So I got the closest match, a Moen faucet. I also picked up a longer toilet supply line.

Got home and got the toilet hooked up and got the new faucet mounted on the vanity sink. Next I discovered the 16" supply lines I bought fot the sink were about 2" short. Found some 20 inchers at the hardware store down the street. 

With the faucet and drain connected I finally mounted the vanity top with silicone. I needed to make one more trip down the street to find a couple of adaptive couplers to get the sink drain hooked up. 

Turned on the water and nothing leaked.:thumbup: Now all that is left is to replace all the door and window trim and baseboards.


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## Bootz

Sorry I am late on this one but....









:lol: :lol: :lol: 

this is awesome... I also like the cat in the tub btw our cat really likes to crinkle the plastic wrap we put on the floor before we paint so ... some times yes the cat will end up with a new racing strip .... unintentionally of course :whistling2:


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## Jim F

Thanks for the response. That was a self-portrait by my 7-year-old. It came off with Mr. Clean magic eraser but the picture is a nice reminder that I will show him when he is older.


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## Bootz

Jim F said:


> Thanks for the response. That was a self-portrait by my 7-year-old. It came off with Mr. Clean magic eraser but the picture is a nice reminder that I will show him when he is older.


LOL that is really awesome ! Yea I think my mom still has something from a girl that gave something to me in 5th grade or something that she is holding on to for black mail i think :laughing:


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## Jim F

Happy to report that the bathroom is very close to finished. I am way behind in the pictures. These are from dry fitting and installing the self-stick tile floor. You can't beat these tiles for ease of installation. Was originally considering Allure flooring in here but ruled that out. My father gave me that Rotozip years ago. He's been gone since 2003. 

The rotozip has been sitting in my garage for years but I have finally put it to use. You can't beat it for making those cuts in the tile and underlayment for the toilet hole. I needed a regular jig saw for the subfloor cut though. I have also used the rotozip for some of my drywall cutouts but hold the shopvac close to the work while cutting drywall.

I still have a lot to do on the adjoining hallway and laundry alcove and will probably just post those pics here rather than starting a new thread. The emphasis has been on the bathroom and will continue until it is complete. All that is left is a little trim work, towel rack and TP holder etc. Also have to finish cleaning and painting the door. Still have to work out some sort of plan for towel and toiletry storage, but it's great to finally have a second functioning bathroom that's close to the bedroom. I started this in Feb!


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## gma2rjc

Nice job Jim! It looks really good.


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## Bootz

Yea looks really great jim :thumbsup:


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## Jim F

So the next progress was made on Nov. 21 and involved priming the last couple of areas of unfinished wall. The areas got painted after the primer but those pics will be posted in another group. 

I used a plastic outside corner bead with bullnose tile and thin set on one side and light weight (blue lid) mud and paint other other surface. I think it was Bud in someone else's thread that said metal bead under thin set would rust. I wouldn't have known to use plastic otherwise. I sprayed 3m 70 adhesive on the plastic bead outside. That is hideous stuff to work with. I could feel it clinging to hair on my arms as I was spraying. I guess I should have been wearing long sleeves as well as the mask and goggles. I hemmed and hawed about how best to address that outside corner. In the end I decided I'd had enough of cutting tile for a while and mudded the other side. 

I picked up a used Chicago Electric sliding miter saw real cheap. It does justice for my purposes and makes miter cuts go a lot quicker. The PVC moulding is glued with silicon and secured with brads. 

I used paper tape and Durabond 90 for the joint above the door where the durrock meets the drywall. Then mudded over using blue lid. It blended pretty well. Overall my taping skills have improved considerably since the time I replaced sections of the kitchen ceiling. I've picked up a lot of great tips here.


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## Bootz

Is that a make shift shelf in there holding up duct tape? lol Awesome! Good to see it is coming along really well !


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## Jim F

Bootz said:


> Is that a make shift shelf in there holding up duct tape? lol Awesome! Good to see it is coming along really well !


That's actually my window sill holding a bunch of construction related junk. It is cleaned up and put back together now with the trim. New pics coming soon.


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## Jim F

The first two pictures are of a revision I had to do. I originally had two brass nipples 6" and 2" screwed together and screwed into the valve at the top and a 90 then out to the spout nipple. All this to avoid sweating copper. I have more confidence in sweating now fortunately. The brass setup did not allow the spout to sit flush to the tile and when I moved that back the valve sat crooked. It looked terrible. My wife wanted me to leave it alone so I could finish sooner. I said "no way" and replaced the brass with the copper you see. My theory was that copper would bend whereas brass would not. Luckily for me I did not end up having to bend anything. The new copper tube sits in there straight and the spout is flush. Already the access panel has been useful. I used a wad of fiberglass insulation in there to protect everything from the torch but have since learned on this site that that is not a good idea. I just wish those heat blankets were not so damn expensive.

The next is a cut I had to make with the jig saw to fit around those two pipes that supply the toe kick heater under the vanity. I hope to be able to get those marks made by the jigsaw base off with Mr. Clean magic eraser. That area will probably get covered anyway.

Still not quite sure what I want to do with that outside corner where the quarter round will eventually meet the base molding. Those pipes were originally boxed in with base molding- one piece nailed on top of an outside facing piece. I will likely do the same thing. I had wanted something covering those pipes that will also allow the heat to radiate off the pipes to supplement the toe kick heater. I had even bought a baseboard enclosure http://www.lowes.com/pd_62539-33978...1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=hydronic+baseboard but realized when I got it home that it was too tall and would not allow me to open the cabinet door. So It got returned.


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## Jim F

The walls are painted, the door and window trim is up and all the junk is cleaned off the window sill. The toilet and vanity are in. My wife put the curtains up. The MOen sink faucet was the closest match to the Delta faucet. I could no longer buy the matching delta faucet at Lowes.


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## Jim F

The tub floor trim is don on the door side but not the window side yet. That PVC quarter round is glued down with silicone and a few brads. The curved shower curtain rod is up. I bought that weeks ago when it was on sale at Lowes for 10 dollars off.


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## oh'mike

Looks real good,Jim.

Aren't those curved rod a pain to install? Look nice when they are up,though.

Your caulk job looks very good in the pictures---Mike---


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## gma2rjc

You did a great job Jim! It looks wonderful. 

You'll like having the curved shower curtain rod. It gives you a lot of extra elbow room.

I really like that vanity cabinet.


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## Jim F

Thanks for the compliment on the caulk Mike. Of course I read every tip I could about caulking. I used my finger to smooth and shape it. Tried the wet finger trick but didn't find it to make much of a difference. The secret to my success involved a lot of wiping with the finger and a lot of waste. I kept a roll of toilet paper to wipe the caulk off my finger. 

Speaking of caulk, I can't tell you how many commercial jobs I noticed where they grout the corners and yes, many of them are cracked. Went looking at apartments with my eldest daughter and the shower had grouted corners that cracked. The young lady showing us the apartment mentioned that she and her fiance were planning to renovate the house they just bought. I told her to make sure they use caulk, not grout in the corners.

I didn't find the curtain rod too difficult. Had my son help hold it up with the curtain on to figure out where best to place it. Plus I got a little info online. If you place them out to the outer edge of the tub it gives you maximum elbow room but bringing it in some gives better water protection on the inside. My rod ends lined up about halfway between the inner and outer tub edge. The Moen model has a hinged inner piece that screws into the wall then the outer decorative cover snaps on over it. 

There is definitely an advantage to taking pictures of your walls before the drywall goes back up. I referred to my pictures for the placement of that shower curtain rod, the towel bar and the TP holder.


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## Jim F

Oops double post.


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## Jim F

*Bathroom project winding down*

I now have a towel rack and TP holder.


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## Bootz

In the words of a drill instructor... I am sure the Virgin Mary her self would be proud to take dump in that bathroom  Great Job!


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## CoconutPete

Jim

Nice job!

I have a 1/2 bath downstairs that is the EXACT same layout except a tub or shower was never installed for some reason - there is just a big empty space. I'm trying to figure out if I have room to put in a tub like you have or if I need to steal room from the closet on the other side. Do you know how long that wall is?


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## Jim F

CoconutPete said:


> Jim
> 
> Nice job!
> 
> I have a 1/2 bath downstairs that is the EXACT same layout except a tub or shower was never installed for some reason - there is just a big empty space. I'm trying to figure out if I have room to put in a tub like you have or if I need to steal room from the closet on the other side. Do you know how long that wall is?


I've been off for a while so just now reading this. It is a 5x8 bathroom. The door meets the curved shower certain rod. If that rod were not curved it would meet the tub but opens wide enough either way. I had to shave off about 3/4" off the door trim to bring my tile out past the tub like I wanted to. Also had to fur out the back two walls somewhat to make the tub fit in square. 

The window trim was shaved down previously to accommodate the shower that was there.

You definately want to fit the tub or shower in there before finishing any part of the walls if you do decide to put one in. I made a big newbie mistake of finishing the upper half of my walls assuming the tub would fit in there just right. Then had to tear out what I put in and start over.


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## Sandra20

Looks great. It's clean and fresh.


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## LeviDIY

Just read through.. well done, giving me inspiration!!


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