# Mixing Mortar for Tuckpointing



## Crosby (Dec 5, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> i went through several how-to pages but none prescribed a ratio of cement vs. sand. can anyone give me a ballpark of what i should be mixing ? saying "Mix the mortar to a consistency like pudding, where you can slice a piece off with your trowel" really does not specify any ratio. e.g. 80/20, 70/30, 50/50, i have no clue.
> 
> http://homerepair.about.com/od/exteriorhomerepair/ss/sbs_tuckpoint_3.htm
> 
> also, what kind of a "liquid latex binder" should i be using ? and what is it ?


You didn’t mention in your post what type of mortar you are using. What kind of mortar was used originally? How old is the structure? What type of brick you are dealing with? Selecting the right mortar for the job is important. If you choose a high compressive mortar with old soft bricks you will destroy the bricks. Ultimately you want to match what’s there. . With no information I can only generalize. Unless you have an old lime mix, a general pointing mortar is type N for exterior applications. I would use a lean 1:3ish mix for pointing with type N. It’s easy to batch using 5 gallon buckets. The liquid binder is a bonding agent which can be picked up where you get the rest of your materials. It will also make the mortar a little sticky which is desirable due to the lean pointing mix. Don’t over do it with the binder, follow the directions.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

this is an interior exposed brick wall in a basement apartment and the house is 100 yrs old. the old mortar is in relatively decent shape but slightly dissipating. i mad a pilot run on just a few bricks last night that will not be exposed and used type N cement. when you say 1:3, do you mean 1 for cement and 3 for sand or vice versa ?


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## Crosby (Dec 5, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> this is an interior exposed brick wall in a basement apartment and the house is 100 yrs old. the old mortar is in relatively decent shape but slightly dissipating. i mad a pilot run on just a few bricks last night that will not be exposed and used type N cement. when you say 1:3, do you mean 1 for cement and 3 for sand or vice versa ?


 Thats right around the time they stopped using the lime and sand mix in masonry construction. In general, mortars for repointing should be softer (measured in compressive strength) than the masonry units and no harder than the original mortar.If you got Type N you should be okay, it's a medium compressive-strength (750 psi) mortar with a high lime content. It's made of 1 part portland cement, 1 part lime and 6 parts sand. The lime and portland are factory mixed in the bag, so that translates to 1 part mortar to 2.5-3 parts sand.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

Thanks Crosby !


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## Crosby (Dec 5, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> Thanks Crosby !


 No problem, good luck with the project.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Good info Crosby, but as a rule, a premix mortar is going to consist of sand and masonry cement, not portland cement and lime. If you are going that route, make sure that the bag states that it is a portland cement/lime blend.

Type N is the strength designation, not an ingredient designation.


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

I wanna hijack this thread. How is the best way to get it into a vertical wall? In MY case its regular 8X16" concrete blocks,,,maybe 50 years old. looking a it from the inside out, no mortar to be seen anywhere for about a 4' section. Is there a 'proper' tool for getting it where its supposed to go??? The outside of ths area is the back door step of about 8" which puts it about at the top of this 3 course crawl space(from the inside)


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

The right concrete mix ratio can solve problems or it can create them. What you really want in a concrete mix is one that is easy to place, strong enough to meet the needs of the application, durable for the life of the floor or wall, and that will look good when you're done with your decorative efforts. Don't rely on bags! Rather than only specifying how much cement is in the mix we should be specifying things like permeability, shrinkage, workability, pumpability, stampability, and stainability.

The lime content contributes to the sticking attribute. The water will give you workability, to more you add the weaker the cement. (mortar is also a cement) The sand is the aggregate that the cement binds to. a 2.5 -3 parts sand to one part cement is a good choice for your task. With 1.5 part lime. The sand should be mason sand not play sand, beach sand or even concrete sand.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

4just1don said:


> I wanna hijack this thread. How is the best way to get it into a vertical wall? In MY case its regular 8X16" concrete blocks,,,maybe 50 years old. looking a it from the inside out, no mortar to be seen anywhere for about a 4' section. Is there a 'proper' tool for getting it where its supposed to go??? The outside of ths area is the back door step of about 8" which puts it about at the top of this 3 course crawl space(from the inside)


here ya go:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/mortar-redoing-tuckpointing-35149/


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

hey guys - i did 3 parts sand and 1 part type N cement but the mortar, when it dried, was more dissipating/sandy than i'd like it to be. it wasn't as smooth as i'd like it to be and you could rub sandy particles off with a finger.

on the other hand, i had done a pilot run on a few bricks before this with 1:1 mix and that looks like i'd like it to - the mortar almost looks like grout between tiles.

my next question is: are there any consequences to doing a mix closer to 1:1 for the aesthetics of it ? will the strength be compromised ? what does sand do ? to me, it seems like pure cement would be the ultimate strength. please someone explain.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> hey guys - i did 3 parts sand and 1 part type N cement but the mortar, when it dried, was more dissipating/sandy than i'd like it to be. it wasn't as smooth as i'd like it to be and you could rub sandy particles off with a finger.
> 
> on the other hand, i had done a pilot run on a few bricks before this with 1:1 mix and that looks like i'd like it to - the mortar almost looks like grout between tiles.
> 
> my next question is: are there any consequences to doing a mix closer to 1:1 for the aesthetics of it ? will the strength be compromised ? what does sand do ? to me, it seems like pure cement would be the ultimate strength. please someone explain.


The sand is the aggregate. Like I said you need to use the right type of sand. (size). You did not. mortar That has a high cement content, excessive shrinkage of mortar from the face shell of the masonry unit is more likely to occur. The size of the sand and the ratio with cement will determine the compressive strength of the mortar. In block you want a lower psi of 1800 Type S, although above ground many masons will use Type N PSI of 750. Type N is fine but is used in brick work more than in block work. the lower PSI mortar has more adhesion and will allow a block wall to expand and move better. Type N mix ratio is 1:1:6 Type S mix is 2:1:9 The ratio I gave you is somewhere in between giving you adequate strength and adhesion. You can see here that the added sand in Type N has made it a stronger mix.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

i got the multi-use sand from HD, it listed custom mortar applications on the bag. the only other kind they had was play sand, which is not applicable here. but i have been disappointed in HD many times, should i look elsewhere. and also, this IS a brick wall, so is type N cement OK ?


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> Type N mix ratio is 1:1:6


do you mean 1 water : 1 cement : 6 sand ?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> do you mean 1 water : 1 cement : 6 sand ?


no... cement : lime : sand Use mason sand not all purpose sand, that is why you have a grainy feel. The sand needs to be fine and have sharp edges. The cement bonds to the sand, so the more edges the better the bond. The amount of water needed: Enough to make it workable. Too little and it is not pliable. More than needed, you weaken the mix.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

but someone told me that the cement i got (can't remember the brand but it is Type N) already has lime mixed in it ... what gives ?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If it says, "Type N Masonry Cement", it contains no lime. If it says, "Type N blended portland cement/lime", then it has lime in it. If it has sand in it, same thing, except it will be called mortar.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

okay, thanks. one more question: since tuckpointing is definitely messy, what do you use to clean up mortar smeared around on brick ? i wiped off with a damp sponge but some thin trace of residue still remained after it dried. is there some solution that will wipe it clean, vinegar or something ?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> okay, thanks. one more question: since tuckpointing is definitely messy, what do you use to clean up mortar smeared around on brick ? i wiped off with a damp sponge but some thin trace of residue still remained after it dried. is there some solution that will wipe it clean, vinegar or something ?


Clean with water and TSP, if you have stubborn areas use water and 10% muriatic acid.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> Clean with water and TSP, if you have stubborn areas use water and 10% muriatic acid.


Trisodium phosphate ? is there a commercial name for muriatic acid ?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

no that is it, Home Depot will have it as well as any masonry supply store. Add a little household detergent with the TSP also.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

thanks bob. i called a non-HD construction store in the area and the guy said they had WASHED SAND. he said that would do for custom mortar applications. is that right ?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

TSP is no longer available. The best way to get the mortar off is to not get it on there. I gave you instructions earlier on how not to smear it, didn't I?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Re the sand, they probably have washed concrete sand, see if it complies with ASTM C144. Concrete sand has too many coarse particles.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> TSP is no longer available. The best way to get the mortar off is to not get it on there. I gave you instructions earlier on how not to smear it, didn't I?


this is what you said:

"From a hawk, just tuck the joints and *leave it alone!* Any mortar on the bricks will not be a problem unless you smear it in while wet. Let the bricks suck the moisture out of it for awhile, hit the joints with a jointer, then lightly wire brush them. No mess at all."

didn't work for me. i smeared it all over the place while tucking. i guess that fits in the scenario "unless you smear it in while wet". how can you smear it other than wet ? i guess i am sloppy. but even if i leave it on to harden and later chip it off, the brick absorbs the gray water from the mortar, which remains on the brick. i am sure you know what i am talking about. that is what i am trying to take off. i am sure it is a fairly frequent scenario as most people who do it are imperfect like myself and do leave some mess behind.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

You are playing with it too much. Push it in, leave it alone.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> this is what you said:
> 
> "From a hawk, just tuck the joints and *leave it alone!* Any mortar on the bricks will not be a problem unless you smear it in while wet. Let the bricks suck the moisture out of it for awhile, hit the joints with a jointer, then lightly wire brush them. No mess at all."
> 
> didn't work for me. i smeared it all over the place while tucking. i guess that fits in the scenario "unless you smear it in while wet". how can you smear it other than wet ? i guess i am sloppy. but even if i leave it on to harden and later chip it off, the brick absorbs the gray water from the mortar, which remains on the brick. i am sure you know what i am talking about. that is what i am trying to take off. i am sure it is a fairly frequent scenario as most people who do it are imperfect like myself and do leave some mess behind.


Check a real site where a pro is doing brick work. We always wash the wall down a week after the joints are done. Use a commerical cleaner and a power washer, so for the DIYer I did not give that advise. But not cleaning? REALLY?


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

i can't pressure wash, it is an indoor application. i need some chemical to rinse it off. if TSP is not available (is it toxic ?), i might have to go with muriatic acid.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> Re the sand, they probably have washed concrete sand, see if it complies with ASTM C144. Concrete sand has too many coarse particles.


No this is not a good sand either. Home Depot will not be able to help. Go to a sand & gravel Yard. But why7 are you mixing your own anyway. Normally we only do this for larger volumes. Just use the mixed bags of stuff. But not from Home depot either. 

TSP does still exist. Find it at any paint store.

Cleaning is always done by professionals.. so clean and do not worry about it. We use a pointing tool to make the joints clean, but the way posted is just fine. If you made a mess it was from adding too much water to the mix. Very bad... plan on fixing it in the spring, since it will start falling out by then.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Power washing especially with acidic cleaners is not recommended. That said, it is often done, and if done with a fan tip is not usually a problem. 

TSP is not available in pure form in this area, paint stores or not.

ASTM C-144 is the standard for masonry sand.

I never have to clean after tuckpointing, beyond the wire and soft brush.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

amakarevic said:


> i can't pressure wash, it is an indoor application. i need some chemical to rinse it off. if TSP is not available (is it toxic ?), i might have to go with muriatic acid.


No it is not toxic and is readily available at any paint store and Home Depot


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> Power washing especially with acidic cleaners is not recommended. That said, it is often done, and if done with a fan tip is not usually a problem.
> 
> TSP is not available in pure form in this area, paint stores or not.
> 
> ...



From another site on profession brick cleaning

*Standard bucket and brush methods are the most popular ways to clean masonry and can produce excellent results. Here are the steps to follow: 
1. Obtain the cleaning recommendations of the brick, mortar and cleaning product manufacturers. 
2. Select the proper product. 
3. Select the proper dilution ratio. 
4. Before mixing or applying chemicals, make sure you are wearing the proper safety gear; including goggles and gloves. 
5. Use the recommended cleaning procedure on a sample test panel or area to see what happens. 
6. Remove large mortar particles from the walls with a wooden paddle or non metallic scrape hoes or chisels. 
7. Protect surrounding surfaces, such as metal, glass, wood, limestone and cast stone surfaces. Mask windows, doors and areas with ornamental trim. 
8. Saturate the area to be cleaned with water. 
9. Starting at the top of the wall, apply cleaning solution with a long-handled, stiff fiber brush. Follow the cleaning manufacturer's recommendation for the amount of time the solution should be allowed to remain on the wall. 
10. Scrub vigorously with the brush. 
11. Rinse thoroughly. Flush the walls with large amounts of clean water before they dry. If you do not flush the wall completely, white scum may form on the it. 
Mud, dirt and soil may be most easily cleaned off of new brick masonry with detergent or soap solutions. Try 1/2 cup of trisodium phosphate and 1/2 cup laundry detergent dissolved in a gallon of water. For an acid solution, mix nine parts clean water with one part muriatic acid. Always pour the acid into the water. Don't use a strong acid solution; it might cause further stains. 
12. Rinse the wall thoroughly with clean water from top to bottom and make sure all the cleaning solution has been removed.* *Pressurized Water*


*To save time and labor costs, many contractors use pressurized water to clean new masonry. The base unit can 
be 100 feet away from the units being cleaned if long hoses, pressure guns and special nozzles are used. Some systems have two hoses, one for water and the other for cleaning solutions. 
If not used carefully and within reasonable boundaries, water pressure cleaning can damage masonry. The sand finish on some units can be removed entirely by water pressure, resulting in a wall that looks different than its designer intended. Nozzle pressure in excess of 700 psi may damage brick units and erode mortar joints. Note that pressurized cleaning probably will change the appearance of sand molded brick, brick with glazed coatings and sand faced extruded brick. 
To clean brick masonry with pressurized water; follow these procedures: 
1. Obtain the cleaning equipment and cleaning solution and test them on sample areas. Make sure the solution you are using is compatible with the equipment. Mix according to the manufacturer's directions. 
2. Presoak the wall. Remove large particles by hand or with wooden paddles. Saturate the brickwork to prevent it from absorbing the chemicals. 
3. Apply the cleaning chemicals through the pressure cleaning  unit. 
4. Allow the solution to remain on the wall for about five minutes. 
5. Starting at the top, rinse thoroughly. Flush the walls with large amounts of clean water before they dry.*


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

thanks bob, this is great !


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

We will have to agree to disagree, but I can tell you that I spend a decent amount of time on jobsites meeting with GC's and owners (and of course masonry contractors) discussing how the issues caused by improper power washing of brick can be remediated.

TSP is not "toxic", it is an environmental pollutant.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> We will have to agree to disagree, but I can tell you that I spend a decent amount of time on jobsites meeting with GC's and owners (and of course masonry contractors) discussing how the issues caused by improper power washing of brick can be remediated.
> 
> TSP is not "toxic", it is an environmental pollutant.


Can you read.. pressure washing is used to quickly and completely wet the wall prior to cleaning... and then again to give it a good rinse. When you are dealing with 7000 sq ft of bricks like our jobs we cannot be spending time hauling little buckets of water up the scaffolding.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

I read extremely well, but apparently many masonry contractors can't, and homeowners simply do not have the experience to make the attempt.


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

hey guys - you know what just occurred to me ? why can't i just use tile grout for this application instead of mixing mortar ?


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## amakarevic (Apr 12, 2007)

also, i got lime from lowes but the only kind they had was in the gardening dept and it is advertised for gardening use (quick-acting). is that it or do i need some special masonry lime ?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

The aggregate is too fine in tile grout, and the lime should be Type S double hydrated, but the single hydrated common lime will do in a pinch.


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