# Paver Patio Slope



## de-nagorg

That is absolutely clear as Mississippi mud. 

What is sloped? the patio, the wall, what is a wall doing on a patio?

No saturating ground will not change the slope, just makes a mud hole. 


Need a graphic.



ED


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## dbier

Disregard "wall". Its just a retaining wall but that's irrelevant. I just mean that the change in elevation from one corner of the patio to the opposite diagonal corner is 5", over 25'. So, essentially a 5 on 25. 

Thanks for your time.


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## concrete_joe

measuring diag because why?

whats the slope in X direction (drop & run), and whats the slope in in Y direction (drop & run)?
i dont want to calc it from your pic, so pls just post the #'s. are the slopes uniform or does one side have more pitch than the other?

my patio is roughly 50x16 and the pitch is approx 2.5" across that 16ft, from the opposite side of the patio if you eye it with nothing on the patio the pitch is noticeable. then load up the patio with stuff and now suddenly it doesnt matter, cant feel that pitch by walking, etc. however, my patio is only pitched in that one direction.

so 5" on this diag you posted, you might see that with nothing on the patio with you knowing what you are looking for. 235x198 is "small" enough that line of sight perspective will be calmed to some extent. in other words, this issue is more apparent over bigger distances depending on the perspective of line of sight, etc.

i suspect no, you wont be able to compact the soil in any significant way. wetting it can make compacting even harder to do as wet soil will try and displace soil around it.

if its so bad then pull up half of the pavers and re-grade some, then put pavers back. more work but at least you will have it more they way you want it, etc.


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## dbier

*Patio slope*

Sorry for all the confusion. I tried my best to explain what I already feel is a confusing situation. 

I didn't specifically measure the diaganol, nor was I concerned with it. But after laying it out, I noticed that while the drops front to back or right to left is only 2.5", the elevation change on the diagonal are those 2 drops combined...5". And Im concerned that this will be too drastic when walking from A to B. See pic


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## dbier

One more thing regarding a possible fix. I noticed that while wheel barrowing in crushed granite over my short retaining wall, the blocks sunk about 1.5". That's what got me to thinking that I could possible correct the whole wall by having 4 or 5 of my buddies come stand with me on a 4x4 spanning the left side wall. Thereby making it sink an inch or 2 and lessening the degree of slope. Would this not be possible if I saturated the ground around the short wall carefully worked it down 1-2"?


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## concrete_joe

what exactly are will be depressed into the ground? there is no way you will move the whole thing, and if it does move you will crack some of the other parts ??

so right now you have this perimeter wall made of what? block or poured concrete??

and curious to know, 1-2 is up aanist the house? is the house also sloped? 2.5" across 1-2 against level house will likely be obvious, no?


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## dbier

Well, that's just it, the wall is made from self aligning, retaining wall blocks so no mortar used and nothing to crack. But I agree that regardless of how much weight distributed, I'd never sink the entire wall. And if I could, it would no longer be even.


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## concrete_joe

so the interior space these walls form will be filled with ~3" fill of some sort and then pavers inserted? and then rest of yard back filled to match height of block wall?

how much effort to pull one half of two sides (side + front) up and redo some grading. one day's worth of time/effort? if so i would just redo it some. pull some mason lines to follow.

as-is the "how noticeable" part will be less via feet as it will be on the eyes. so, your call. did you at least put some 6mil poly up against house maybe 2-3ft out into the area, or did you provide a french drain under there (against house) so you can control water? a single direction slope of proper slope away from house will suffice to help water run away from house.


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## dbier

One correction is the capstone is indeed mortored on so the option of pulling up a side and the front is gone. 

But you pretty much answer my question concrete_joe, noting that it will be more visable to eye than by feel. Feel is more of what I was concerned with. 

Thanks to everyone for the help.


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## concrete_joe

yeah, i dont think anyone will notice that diag slope while walking, the pitch per step or stride is too small, etc.

your diag slope is 0.01628" per inch, = ~.2"/ft
whats your step distance? 2ft?

in one 2ft step you landing foot will be 0.4" lower than back foot. probably not noticeable to anyone not purposely trying to feel that diff (and knowing about it first).


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## dbier

Ok, then that's what I'll stick to. If nothing else, I figure I'm still falling just within the the general slope rule of "maximum of 1/4" per foot" (on the diagnonal) but I really hate that I'm in the situation cause I did my best to plan and avoid big problems.


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## concrete_joe

with those slopes as given the diag is about 1.6x more slope than the slope of 2.5" across 198".

its all good for water runoff, and i dont think you will notice it on your feet.

might as well create a test. carve a path in that dirt with same slope, then walk it.


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## dbier

I've tried to level off the crushed granite (what's in there now) to about as close to the actual slope and I really don't think I'd notice a thing if I wasn't already aware. The only time I really can SEE it is when I walk out into my yard and compare the front edge with the horizontals of the brickwork on the house.


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## dbier

Another question....let's say I DO decide to just get it over with and reset one side and the front wall, I'll need to knock off the capstone. So:

1. will the set mortar on the bottom of the capstone and on top of the block be easily scrape-able? That is, is it fairly easy to clearn them up for resetting? I surely don't want to spend a weekend cleaning 35 capstones.
2. I think I mortared them in fairly well with full underside coverage and about 1/8" to 1/4" thick mortar. Will I even BE ABLE to bust them off at this point or will the capstones just break apart? I guess I'll have to try busting one off and seeing how it goes.


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## concrete_joe

no need to "bust" anything.

1st, remove some mortar from any one joint using screwdriver and hammer, just go easy (starting on a corner should suffice here since that piece is not locked in like the others). once there is a space (all mortar gone) tap a joint under a cap with screwdriver and hammer, not too hard, move around some, you should be able to pop them up w/o breaking them. after they are off you should be able to soak them and scrape off the old mortar, any mortar on the blocks should come off with some light tapping, etc.

what type of mortar was used?


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## dbier

80lb bag of Quikrete Mason mix. So after carefully popping them off, I just soak them in regular water.

Jeez...I can't believe its come to this. So much work down the drain!


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## concrete_joe

it happens...... did you identify what step of the process failed? did you use a transit or rotary laser to mark the elevation?

yeah, that mortar should pop, and yes, wet it down and it will soften slightly for scraping.

i mean before you go taking stuff apart are you sure the #'s you have now are real #'s? perhaps you should verify the slopes before you undo anything.


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## dbier

Yes, I'm pretty sure. It actually sounds more complicated over the forum than it is. The problem is that I layed out the front to back slope of 2.5" on my stakes, and THEN, dropped the outer front left stake mark an additional 2.5" to achieve an overall drainage to that one front corner. So really, it worked out exactly how I planned but I should have anticipated the additional slope and only built in say, 1" or 1.5" initial slope, thereby resulting in an overall slope of 2-3", instead of 5"


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## de-nagorg

Any cement based mix, I.E. concrete, mortar, etc, needs at least 30 days to permanently cure, so if your mortar is younger than that it will clean off easily. 

I still read this as the house is lower than the patio, true or false? And How was the potential water pooling at the house solved?

A drain of some sort I hope. 


ED


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## dbier

Yes, mortar is about 12 days old. The patio goes from ground level to about 12" on outer edge (my yard has a slope.) 

No, where the patio meets with the house, its ground level so there are no drainage issues. Good to know about the mortar. That's a relief.

Thanks everyone for the help.


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## jomama45

Personally and professionally, I wouldn't change a thing. 1" in 5' isn't extreme by any measure, it's actually closer to minimal pitch than anything. If you're sitting or walking on the patio and think that's it's extreme, I think you'd be over reacting. I'd be far more concerned with water pooling if you were to remove some of the pitch....


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## dbier

*capstone attachment*

Thanks. Yes, I've decided its not worth it and to just roll with what I've got.

Now, for my other concern regarding the capstone. I used quikrete mason mix to attach them to the tops of the the retaining wall blocks. I'm skeptical about how good a job i did. I wet each surface I was mortaring and applied a liberal 1/4" or so to the entire top surface of the wall block. Then placed the capstone and stepped on it to set it in place. 

Never having worked with mortar, my questions are: 

1. I've had to pop off a few that i did the week prior and they seemed to detach relatively easy using a chisel and hammer. After 30 days or so of curing time, will they become significantly harder to remove? I hope so because I surely don't want to replace a broken one every 2 months when my kids are jumping on them.....

2. I used no mortar in BETWEEN the capstones. I saw many examples of both ways to do it online (mortar between vs no mortar) and I chose no mortar. Obviously this lessons the holding strength but is that significant? Should I have? 

3. Is there anything I blantantly did wrong or could have done better or should I be ok for say the next 5-30 yrs.?


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## concrete_joe

i myself dont wet the stones but i use mortar that is a tad soupy, depends on the needs (like needing some height for next course and mortar needs to be a tad higher, thus a tad dryer so the block doesnt squish too much). 

a wet mortar on dry stone will cause stone to wick some water and thus grabbing the mortar. i am not 100% if a wet stone causes issue for mortar latching onto the stone.

but, the bed kinda holds them in place while a mortar joint locks them together. if the are butt'd together then that should help keep them in place. if there is a small space between them then maybe get some non-sanded tile grout to match stone color, tape off the joint, mix grout a tad soupy and then force into the groove with your fingers, wipe clean with water/sponge, etc.

but to note, you also want a place for the blocks to expand, so maybe leave 1-2 of them per side alone (those that are tight together).

suggestion, build a short section of test wall with capping using same methods you done on this patio walls. let is stand 30 days then have at it with prying and hammering, see what you get.


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## de-nagorg

It should be fine, if you do not disturb the capstones while laying the pavers, This depends on if you stop for the winter now, or your climate allows you to continue. 


As I have stated extensively in many other queries, Knowing your area of residence is helpful to the advisors , as what will work in Texas does not often work in Minnesota.

If you disturb the capstone, it's bond will be weakened and probably allow some water to get under it and freeze to pop off the stone. 



ED


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## dbier

I see. Well to answer Concrete_Joe, I actually have already completed the capstones so its a done deal. And unfortunately, I left no space in between them. Hopefully I'll be ok. Worse case scenario is down the road I start having them pop off and if so, I'll simply have to pop them all off one weekend and redo them. But i'm hoping I can avoid any more redo on this project. I learn with each new project I do but this has been ridiculous.

In answering de-nagorg, yes, I should have stated I'm in North Houston so while winters are mild, we get a few freezes a year. I'll just avoid stepping on the capstones and not disturb them when laying my pavers next weekend. 

Thanks everyone for the insight


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## Bud Cline

I don't understand why a "paver" patio with "dry-stacked" wall stones would require a slope to begin with.


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## dbier

Sorry, I don't follow. Its a paver patio extending off of my house into my yard. My yard slopes a bit so that's why 3 sides have a partial retaining wall. But regardless of all that, it needs at least some slope, particularly from run off from my house.

Am I wrong?


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## Bud Cline

dbier said:


> Sorry, I don't follow. Its a paver patio extending off of my house into my yard. My yard slopes a bit so that's why 3 sides have a partial retaining wall. But regardless of all that, *it needs at least some slope*, particularly from run off from my house.
> 
> Am I wrong?


*Why does it?* 
You won't have as much "run-off" as you will have "soak-in". Any large quantity of water from a rain event will find its way through the pavers and dry-stacked walls. The base (whatever you used) is there to accommodate proper drainage.

If you had a solid poured concrete slab that would be a different story, but you don't have a slab you have individual pavers.


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## dbier

Ah, I see. I never actually considered that or ran across that as a suggestion throughout this process. But it makes sense. I do have 5" or so of crushed granite, then 2" of leveling sand under the pavers so I'm hoping that will be sufficient for runoff.


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## Bud Cline

dbier said:


> Ah, I see. I never actually considered that or ran across that as a suggestion throughout this process. But it makes sense. I do have 5" or so of crushed granite, then 2" of leveling sand under the pavers so I'm hoping that will be sufficient for runoff.


Too late now!!!
But for followers of this thread and future installs...paver type patios don't normally require any slope.:no:


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## concretemasonry

This is a combination of several errors or misunderstandings.

Both the pavers and the segmental retaining walls (SRWs) are considered "flexible" and rely on a good compacted base and a minimal amount of sand for final setting to allow for soil and temperature variations and movement. The instructions for setting both interlocking pavers and SRWs are usually quite complete. They are intended to allow minor movement due to temperature and moisture, while carrying the loads and remaining and NO mortar should be used because it defeats the basics for the proven performance.

The 2" sand setting bed is excessive (should be 1") with the pavers butted tightly and interlocked with fone sand that is cast on the paver surface and vibrated into the joints. Excessive sand thickness can lead to the pavers "swimming" if the base does not drain correctly - the surface of the compacted base is contoured for the desired drainage with the sand bed uniform in thickness. This is done on driveways, streets and even on airport taxiways.

The SRWs are meant to be interlocking (with NO mortar) using the cast in lugs for alignment. Normally the caps have a shear lug on the bottom back of the unit. For more lateral resistance or resistance to any uplift many systems suggest using 4 "dabs"/globs of silicone adhesive on each cap to allow the minor wall movement with the seasons. A sharp, thin knife can be inserted to allow the cap to be removed - A fish fillet knife works well if removal in desired.

Dick


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## dbier

Darn good info. I'll definitely increase my crushed granite and decrease my sand to 1". I thought I was a little excessive but was gonna chance it. 

As far as the retaining wall goes, I used a Home Depot garden block with a back lip that "locks" itself to the one underneath, after a load is applied to the backside...see pic. The cap is simply an 8"x12"x2" concrete casting with no locking tabs. Its ust a mortar/glue into place. I'm hoping my stuff stays put. 

I definitely learned a ton through the process, and from this forum, but now all I can do is hope I get good results.


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## concrete_joe

dbier said:


> Ah, I see. I never actually considered that or ran across that as a suggestion throughout this process. But it makes sense. I do have 5" or so of crushed granite, then 2" of leveling sand under the pavers so I'm hoping that will be sufficient for runoff.


if the paver joints are filled with sand or epoxy-sand then water will run and a little bit will soak through.... so, depends on how you finish the paver joints, etc. having some slope even with pavers is still good idea.


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