# Granite Countertops and Restaining



## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

We install granite and for what we charge, removing the old countertops isn't much of a bother. Especially laminate. You can remove a laminate top in a very short time, an hour or so, so why try and lay something on top?

After looking at the website, they don't seem to be selling real stone but some sort of engineered product that wraps around the old top. It looks cheesy to me and comparing it to a solid stone top isn't even a contest. We sell and install 3cm granite. Many shops are doing 2cm granite. There are a lot of arguments about which is better, but I think if either is done by a good stone cutter and installer, then they're both beautiful. There are advantages to either one, so that takes some research to decide.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Everything PK wrote is right on the money....


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

Granite Transformation claims that it is real granite, from Italy, and is made at their factory and is measured and then brought to your home and placed over the top of the existing counter. They claim that there is a 10 yr warranty vs replacing the counter with regular granite comes with no warranty(is that true?).


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

What I saw on the website was their "Granit", which is apparently ground up stone that is mixed with some sort of resin and applied to some sort of flexible backer. I wouldn't call that a granite countertop just as I wouldn't call mdf wood. Granite comes from all over the world with different regions producing different colors. Using the "Italian granite" phrase sounds like some marketing type hyping his product. Engineered stones lack the natural granites' randomness in figure and colors and generally look manmade. 

I'm sure the stuff has it's place, just as mdf does, but to compare it to a natural slab of granite, they're just not in the same league.

I'm curious as to the cost. We install our contractor colors for about $60 per square foot. We'll remove the old tops for a nominal fee. What does this "Granit" sell for?


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## MattCoops (Jan 10, 2007)

If you want to save money why not try granite tile.


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

Transformations tells me that it is 95% real granite with polymers added. They are charging $63/sp ft installed. 

Matt, I am not familiar with the granite tile. What are the advantages/drawbacks to this?


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

I think paying as much for an imitation as the real thing costs is a bit dicey. Let me put it this way. Real stone and the engineered stones like Silestone keep their value. You can expect to retain between 80-95% of your original investment when you sell. I doubt this "Granit" will come close to that. It may contain real ground up granite, but that's meaningless. I can paint particleboard and call it cherry, but it's not the same thing. 

If it was around thirty bucks a sf, I might would consider this stuff. But for $63 and put over my old tops that may be degrading? No way.


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

What I was told is that it is a solid piece of granite formulated to fit over the top of the countertop. Reading into your information, the granite is ground up with polymers to form the counter? This is obviously different than what would happen if it was a complete redo counter? One solid piece of pure granite?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Here's an interesting "turn-off" from the website:

_*...."Rocksolid Granit*™ is flexible,..."_
http://www.granitetransformations.com/granite.html


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

Rubberized granite is a neat invention, but I think I it's overpriced. Wonder if it bounces too?


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## Spyko (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't formulate granite. You can quarry it, cut it, trim it, and polish it, but that's about it. If you know what you're doing it will even fit!


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

KennyKenny -- One thing solid granite OWNERS have is staining and sealing, one of the "benefits" that rock owners seem to consistently over look. Keep in mind PK sells stone and therefore he believes in his product, as he should. But to call it cheesy shows that he does not have any interest other than his own, and you should take all opinions as what they are.

The material is ground up granite that is mixed with a polymer. It's laid out on a mat that ends up being 3/8" thick that is reinforced with a fiber mat. They come in and template to your walls, machine the pieces in their shop, and bring the pieces out and install (epoxy) them to either the existing counter top or new deck. If the existing deck has a drip edge, it's sanded off before installation. If we were to do it over, we would choose the same product again. There is absolutely zero staining/spotting and we use the kitchen/counter top hard.

Good luck to you...


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually my primary problem with the stuff is the cost. For $63sf you should be able to have real granite or one of the engineered stones such as Silestone installed. And if it comes time to sell, which would a prospective buyer perceive as the better value, a solid stone top or an old formica top wrapped with this material? Please note that I don't sell engineered stone of any kind, not because I think it's inferior, but because my stonemason is only experienced in natural stone. Silestone, Zodiaq and the rest are a much better alternative when you're paying this much money for a top if you want something other than natural stone for whatever reason. 

As I said, this stuff has it's place, but when the price is the same, why would you settle for an imitation? Installed for a price between laminate and stone and it's worth considering. But forget natural stone for a minute and compare it to engineered stone. What benefit is there over Silestone? Which will retain it's value better? Which will last longer? With the Silestone, you don't have any concern for a particle board substrate that may have already been in degradation at the time of install and isn't going to get any better. Even if you install a new substrate, is it going to have the lifespan of the engineered stone? Is it going to be waterproof, mold and mildew resistant and able to retain it's shape? What happens when you have a small leak in a faucet that soaks the substrate? Are you going to be able to replace that section of material and match the surrounding top? With the solid top, that's not a concern. 

As for having to seal stone, it takes a few minutes every few months or few years depending upon the product, it's about as hard as wiping down the countertops a few times. Natural stone does require a little more care and has it's own set of problems as do all materials.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

PK. said:


> ...is it going to have the lifespan of the engineered stone?


yes


PK. said:


> ...Is it going to be waterproof,


yes


PK. said:


> ...mold and mildew resistant


yes


PK. said:


> ...and able to retain it's shape? What happens when you have a small leak in a faucet that soaks the substrate?


yes, the faucet is fastened to the granite material, and doesn't touch the substrate.


PK. said:


> ...Are you going to be able to replace that section of material and match the surrounding top?


yes, nearly seamless repairs can be made to the counter top.


PK. said:


> ...As for having to seal stone, it takes a few minutes every few months or few years depending upon the product, it's about as hard as wiping down the countertops a few times. Natural stone does require a little more care and has it's own set of problems as do all materials.


ya got me.


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

What I'm questioning is, is it waterproof from the bottom? This is where most leaks are and where water damage starts. If you're applying it over a substrate, be it new or old, it's only as good as that substrate is. If you're applying it over a ten year old laminate top, then you really only have whatever the lifespan of the substrate of that top is, and there's no way that it's anywhere near the life of a solid stone, or even solid surface top. 

I think it all boils down to one simple question. Why would you pay $63 sf for this product when you can have the real thing or an engineered stone for the same price?


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

PK. said:


> What I'm questioning is, is it waterproof from the bottom? This is where most leaks are and where water damage starts.


Sure, it depends on the cut out size for you sink. I think I have about an 1-1/2" larger than the sink, and the sink is water tight against the counter top. So unless there's an abnormal large amount of water, it would be the same regardless of which counter top material is being used.


PK. said:


> If you're applying it over a substrate, be it new or old, it's only as good as that substrate is. If you're applying it over a ten year old laminate top, then you really only have whatever the lifespan of the substrate of that top is, and there's no way that it's anywhere near the life of a solid stone, or even solid surface top.


Can't agree more...and it goes with out saying. Unfortunately someone going to use the product over a swollen up POC (piece of c_ap) counter top and it'll fail and black their eye.. I would hope the installers evaluate each installation thoroughly enough to assess the counters durability.


PK. said:


> I think it all boils down to one simple question. Why would you pay $63 sf for this product when you can have the real thing or an engineered stone for the same price?


One thing we've not mentioned here is that many homes may not have have the necessary sub-structure to support the added weight of the stone product.

The maintenance items previously listed were huge for us. We didn't want any product that would absorb common household items, wine, oil, vinegar marks, nothing. Our prices were >$10 less than any stone bid we had and we didn't see the added value for us. That's not to say that Granite Transformations is the right product for everyone, it's not, just as stone is not the right product for everyone. My wife and I built our house together with with our labor, blood, sweat and tears. We're in it for the long haul and not planning on flipping it anytime soon. God willing, we'll retire and entertain our grand children in this house. 

Way OT with regards to this topic -- since you work with stone, how difficult is it to get a piece of stone about 5/16" thick, 1/2" tall by about 4' wide?


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

Thanks for all of the great information. So just to be clear, Rippy you do have the transformation countertop in your home? 

What is the benefits/drawbacks to quartz vs. (solid-not transformation)granite?


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## PK. (Nov 12, 2007)

RS, I sent you a pm.

Kenny, the primary advantage to the engineered stone is that you can control the quartz content thereby making the top more resistant to heat marks and stains. It's reported to be easier to cut and edge and isn't as susceptible to cracking along a grain, making it easier to install. It is heavier though.

The natural stone needs to be sealed from time to time, which is a very easy task with the right materials. It can stain, but if well-sealed and maintained the chances are lessened. Most stains are from oils I'd say. You can remove most stains from most granites. Not all granite is equal, quartz content varies and generally speaking the higher the quartz content, the fewer problems with stains. 

The primary benefit of real stone is the appearance. Man just can't duplicate what takes nature millions of years. 

My personal favorite is soapstone. I love the look, the feel and the colors. It's easy to cut and easy to maintain.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

kennykenny said:


> Thanks for all of the great information. So just to be clear, Rippy you do have the transformation countertop in your home?


Yes, and we'd do the same if we were to do it again.



kennykenny said:


> What is the benefits/drawbacks to quartz vs. (solid-not transformation)granite?


In a nut shell for us it's the fact that you have no maintenance, no staining, yet have the look and feel of stone. I have stone tops in the bathrooms, and while they look good now, I can see were the kids toothpaste rinsing cup sits. Anytime it gets wet there's water spots...granted they go away as it evaporates...but just the same it looks odd.

As for a comparison to quartz and granite...I can't give it to you since I don't have enough experience to give you a good picture. Call them up and ask for samples.


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

Can there be different "Levels" or different "quality" of granite? Or is granite, granite? I went into another place that is offering solid granite at approx. $15-20 sq foot lower than what I am seeing elsewhere. I am told that they get the product from multiple locations, in the world, depending on the colors of the granite and then it is "cut" locally. Is this normally how it works? How can their price be so much lower? I am told that it is a "sale" on certain colors. Thanks for the input.


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## kennykenny (Sep 23, 2007)

I forgot to mention as I sure someone will say, the granite that is lower in price is 3 cm in thickness. Thanks!


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## bethanyannray (Dec 30, 2007)

Rippy Skippy....I am so glad you enjoy your Rocksolid Granit that was installed. My mom and stepfather just bought a Granite Transformations franchise a few weeks ago. We were first introduced to the product when they had it installed in their house a few years ago. It is amazing stuff and hense we were all interested in getting it involved with it ourselves. To me there is no better product on the market for countertops as this. I've seen a few other posts from different topics where they say this product does not compare to engineered stone. They must be uninformed about what Rocksolid granit is.....it is an engineered stone!! Silestone is about 92% quartz, 8% polymer resin, but is then dyed to different colors as pure quartz is naturally white. Rocksolid granit is a mixture of 95% granite as well as quartz and 5% polymer resin. There are no artificial dyes....which means over time it will not fade if exposed to UV rays (unlike Silestone). It is engineered in 1/4" inch slabs because we are able to do so. We are the only company that has the technology and patent to do so. Why would you demo your kitchen if you didn't have to??? Yes....I agree with the above posts. No.....you don't want to put another solid surface over one that is not solid itself. In that case it would just need to be ripped out and started over with, but If you have a solid surface to start with why rip it out and start over?? It's not only an inconvenience, its messy, costs money, and takes time. So if engineered stone products hold their value over time i.e. silestone...... than this product definitely will.To answer your question about the different quality of granite. For sure there are different grades of natural granite, hense the price differences in the product. No one can argue the beauty of natural granite, but is it for everyone?? I don't believe so. It does need to be maintained and natural granite is only as good as it's sealant. It is porous and thus stains if it is not taken care of properly. It can crack and it can burn. Yes better quality granites hold up better than less quality. Rocksolid granit is not a cheap substitute for regular granite. It is better. For good quality granite you will pay upwards of $60/sf. There are companies advertising cheap prices for granite, I would be wary as to the quality of the product. Yes Rocksolid granit is comparible pricewise to high-grade granite because it is. It is worth every penny of the $65/sf that is being charged for it. Could you afford regular granite for that price?? Yes....for sure. But for me, I couldn't justfy spending $65/sf and then have no warranty, have to seal it and hope it never stains, cracks, etc. etc. because there is no warranty with granite (natural product disadvantage). I'm not sure about the other franchises, but we offer a limited lifetime warranty or a 10 year transferable warranty. If I'm spending thousands of dollars on a product, I better not have to replace it in 1 year, 5 years, or even 10 years unless I decide I just want to. Just some thoughts!!!! Hope you enjoy whatever product you choose!!!!


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## JanMoneyLady (Mar 6, 2008)

_GT Salesperson_


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## DepotDweller (Dec 20, 2007)

there's this granite called "Stonemark, by innovative stone" which has protection called Permashield, anyone familiar with it? It says it is second to none for durability, stain-resistance and no sealing convenience.


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## JanMoneyLady (Mar 6, 2008)

*Stonemark*

_GT Salesperson_

Yes I have seen and heard about it. It is granite that has been pre-treated and sealed with a special process. Haven't heard much about how long the sealant lasts. I looked for it here and found it to be starting at $52 sq ft additional based on color, plus edging, demo at $8-10 a square. The color range we liked was $63.00 plus $11 ln ft for edging and $10.00 square ft for demo.

Was higher than thought it should be.


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## DepotDweller (Dec 20, 2007)

JanMoneyLady said:


> Yes I have seen and heard about it. It is granite that has been pre-treated and sealed with a special process. Haven't heard much about how long the sealant lasts. I looked for it here and found it to be starting at $52 sq ft additional based on color, plus edging, demo at $8-10 a square. The color range we liked was $63.00 plus $11 ln ft for edging and $10.00 square ft for demo.
> 
> Was higher than thought it should be.


 
The salesperson at HD said it's cheaper here since it comes via the port, compared to the upper states, so we shall see. I do know however, that the granite comes with a 10 yr warranty. Thanks for your input.


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## SoldHomes (Mar 26, 2008)

*In the backside waterproof?*

If you look at the video demonstrations below regarding testing of Innovative Stone's Stonemark granite sealed with Permashield sold at Home Depot will answer your question. I have personally poured water on both sides of Stonemark granite and within seconds the top of the countertop started absorbing water and the backside instantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR-aQwQ4wg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd-kSMw5gRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34OvYITZwiI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4tpQ8u7Bng

http://www.graniteshieldcountertops.com/graniteshielduseandcare.html

Thanks,
Debbie


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## Spo (Feb 10, 2009)

I can't get real technical about the makeup of various products, but I can tell you that I had Granite Transformations do my counter tops a week ago and I LOVE them!! The no maintenance and stain resistance was a huge plus for me!


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## JanMoneyLady (Mar 6, 2008)

*RockSolid Granit Value*

_GT Salesperson_


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

Demolition costs for a countertop is next to nothing. We use a contractor that goes in ahead of our install team, tears out the old top and backsplash, makes sure the plumbing valves are in good shape, then after the top is installed, returns to hook up all the plumbing.

Total cost is $250 to $300 depending on if new stop valves and traps are needed. Just a tear out and haul off costs $75.00. My point is that this is not the major cost that the granite transformation franchises make it out to be.

And a lot of people do their own demo. Good savings for an hours work.

The cost is what makes the granite transformation product a bad buy, if it is at $65 as people say. We sell several quartz brands that start at $41 per square foot (2 CM thick, not some thin material glued to particle board), heck the highest priced 3 cm quartz is only $62.00 per square foot. The edges aren't mitered, the substrate around the sink won't deteriorate like the thin stuff,and if the faucet ever leaks, there is no particle board to swell up like a toad frog.

Or pick a solid surface. We sell a lot of tops for less than $40, a lot at $30 per square foot. Why pay double for a shoddy material?

We quote against granite transformations all the time. The only chance they have of getting a job is to find someone that hasn't shopped around. But they have a large ad budget so they get their share.


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## JanMoneyLady (Mar 6, 2008)

_GT Salesperson_


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

You seem like a nice lady so don't take this personal. Step up to a forum like this and expect to be challenged on what you post. And kudos for protecting your workers. As to using your product, now way in he**. Wilsonart tried this thin overlay as had others. Eventually expansion issues will bankrupt the company that tries to cut corners by gluing a hard surface to another hard surface that has different co efficient of expansion. What will the warranty be worth then?

"I do not need scare tactics to prove our product is a great solution."
 
Then why tell people they save a lot of money by not doing demolition? If other products are cheaper than yours even after a small demo cost, how can you make that claim? Aren't you using "scare tactics" when you exagerate demo costs? Here is an example from your own postings.

"One of the key things about the product is that there is NO DEMOLITION. "

"In our market you cannot find a countertop material for $40 a square foot installed with demo included, edging, sink mount, plumbing etc. "

You are in Las Vegas, plenty of shops there that will do a $30 solid surface tops. Figure $300 for demo and plumbing on an average two sheet job (60 square feet) at $5.00 per foot and you have a $35.00 per square foot top installed.

You guys charge extra to put an edge on it??? And you charge for sink mounting? Do you sell many without an edge and leave the sink sitting in a box when you leave?

Here is one to track down and do damage control on.

"Funny that I saw this thread today, since I was just cursing my countertops last night (again). We went with the Granite Transformations countertops a year ago. (It's like a granite -epoxy mix or something like that, so you get the granite without having to do the maintenance). They are beautiful, and strong, but... we wish we had gone with something else. We had problems with customer service a few months ago when we needed them to take a look at and fix the sealant that was messed up. They couldn't be bothered to help us until we made *several* phone calls. Also, we have a lighter-colored countertop and it stains pretty easily. It wasn't cheap- it was definitely comparable to granite, silestone, and others, but we liked it because it was something different, and it really is beautiful. But I wish we had chosen differently now."

http://www.terismessageboard.com/showthread.php?t=54388

I have no problem with your product, just the way it is oversold. Like others have said, if it were sold as an alternative to laminate and priced in the $20 to $30 range, it would have a niche. Instead you are trying to compete with granite at $35 per square foot, quartz at $41, and solid surface at $30. Bottom line, you can market to those that haven't shopped around or just like your distinctive look.

But you can't say you are a better deal that the other products since yours is an overlay. Would anyone claim that a kitchen refaced with peel and stick veneer, leaving the old junky drawers, leaving support issues, leaving the old placement problems in the kitchen, and then try to claim the resurface is better than new cabinets? I don't think so.

I like the fact that you are upfront about owning a franchise, but your product is a tough one to defend. But, at least it can't kill anyone.


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## JanMoneyLady (Mar 6, 2008)

*OK Final Word*

_GT Salesperson_

My sole intent for my responses is to create an opportunity for people not informed about our product to give it a real evaluation. Check it out then make your judgement. Do not bash a product without knowing the fact of the product. This material has been installed in thousands of homes around the world. It has been used for this application for over 10 years, it is not new and untested.

People will have preferences about look, color, textures etc...that is why we have choices like concrete, granite, engineered stone. Edging options are available like other materials and are priced accordingly. I am not certain about the different states but in most states different licenses are required to do plumbing work and as such when lumping in this cost and relating it to the price per square ft is not like comparison;as well as sinks faucets, etc. When evaluating it should be like product and services. Just like any other products customers determine (worth what paid for). What is a good value for one may not be the same for another. We do not claim in our sales that we are cheaper, we offer an alternative solution. There are different prices of Natural Granite and Engineered Stone based upon quality and color. No matter what material is used there will be customers that are not fully satisfied. We hear complaints all of the time about other products as well and have in fact gone over Granite, Corian, Tile, Laminate, Caesarstone. The quality of the install and customer support is like any other business is only as good as the individual location, however this is a franchise system and there is recourse to take it to the next level if the cutomer is not getting proper service. 

Our best source of business is customer referral and without a question customer service and satisfaction is our number one goal. 

While we may not agree I appreciate your commments and hope that sometime in the future you will have an opportunity to visit one of the Granite Transformations locations and see for yourself the products and learn more about the process.


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

*No Demo with Granite Transformations!!!*

One of the obvious benefits of Granite Transformations is that you don't have to live in a construction site for 3-6 weeks while multiple contractors traipse through your home. Not having a kitchen or bathroom for a month is just not an option for many people. Demolition causes a huge stress factor, not to mention the constant mess and hassle of having the job drag on for weeks and weeks. Most Granite Transformations projects are done in a day, or two days. Before making a decision, go to a Granite Transformations showroom, get spec info from a salesperson, and get educated!!


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## Kiwi. (Aug 9, 2007)

GTJulie said:


> One of the obvious benefits of Granite Transformations is that you don't have to live in a construction site for 3-6 weeks while multiple contractors traipse through your home. Not having a kitchen or bathroom for a month is just not an option for many people. Demolition causes a huge stress factor, not to mention the constant mess and hassle of having the job drag on for weeks and weeks. Most Granite Transformations projects are done in a day, or two days. Before making a decision, go to a Granite Transformations showroom, get spec info from a salesperson, and get educated!!


?

This is no different than having real granite installed. They come in one day and create the templates. The come back when the stone is ready, pull out existing countertops and put granite in. You're not living in a construction zone for 3-6 weeks just because you decided to get real granite versus an overlay.

People complain about demolition and its really not a big deal. Laminate countertops can almost be removed in minutes and is usually a pretty clean removal.


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

Installing ordinary slab granite definitely is a longer project time frame than Granite Transformations. Ripping out existing counters often damages cabinets, which even have to be cut to accommodate the granite. Granite Transformations does not require any of that. I've never heard of a contractor that is able to complete the demolition of the old counters and the installation of the new counters in a day. 

Ask anyone that has lived through a demolition if they mind the mess, the expense of eating out, not having a kitchen, and the total inconvenience whether they would do it again. I bet they say a resounding NO!

Neither does Granite Transformations contribute to filling landfills with the debris from demolition. It's a GREEN product, which benefits everyone. Additionally, Granite Transformations has stunningly beautiful recycled glass and granite blends. It's part of the trend that everyone is following to be more responsible for the environment.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Our friends had granite counter tops installed
Measured one day
Owners removed old counter top before granite arrived
Granite installed - in one day

You don't cut cabinets to make granite fit, you design the granite to cover the cabinets

The only thing that can take 3-6 weeks is if do a total kitchen renovation with new canites & special order the cabinets, then you may wait weeks for new cabinets

What makes it GREEN? What is the process & how much energy does it take? What does it take to make the stuff that holds it all together? Too many people use the term "GREEN" without fully understanding WHAT makes it green


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## Kiwi. (Aug 9, 2007)

GTJulie said:


> Installing ordinary slab granite definitely is a longer project time frame than Granite Transformations. Ripping out existing counters often damages cabinets, which even have to be cut to accommodate the granite. Granite Transformations does not require any of that. *I've never heard of a contractor that is able to complete the demolition of the old counters and the installation of the new counters in a day.*
> 
> Ask anyone that has lived through a demolition if they mind the mess, the expense of eating out, not having a kitchen, and the total inconvenience whether they would do it again. I bet they say a resounding NO!
> 
> Neither does Granite Transformations contribute to filling landfills with the debris from demolition.


You sound like a an Amway/Quixtar salesman. We recently had our laminate counters replaced with granite. The laminate counters are screwed to the cabinets. Once you remove the screws the counters come right off. There's no mess, and its pretty easy. I took some of the counter off myself, the contractors did the rest as soon as they arrived (took them 20mins). Then they installed the granite. Its was a one day job, about 65sqf. 

It really does sound like people try to sell this product by exagerating the effort involved in demolition. Give me a break.


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

"One of the obvious benefits of Granite Transformations is that you don't have to live in a construction site for 3-6 weeks while multiple contractors traipse through your home." Like others have said, this is a blatent lie on several points. Our demo contractor arrives at 10 am, has the counter, backsplash, and plumbing removed by lunch. We come in at 1 pm, if there is no field seam, we are gone in an hour (if some scribing has to be done, 30 minutes if they just drop in place). If there is a field seam, figure an hour and a half to two hours. Usually the contractor hooks up the sink the same day, sometimes the next morning. As for multiple contractors, there is the tear out guy (cause he works cheaper, no overhead, saves money for the customer), and our installers.

"Not having a kitchen or bathroom for a month is just not an option for many people."  Can they make it if the job is done in one day, or a day and a half? 

"Demolition causes a huge stress factor, not to mention the constant mess and hassle of having the job drag on for weeks and weeks." Yeah, that half hour or hour just drags on forever.

Most Granite Transformations projects are done in a day, or two days. Before making a decision, go to a Granite Transformations showroom, get spec info from a salesperson, and get educated!!  Educated? More like brainwashed.


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

"Installing ordinary slab granite definitely is a longer project time frame than Granite Transformations."  No it isn't. You claimed one to two days. Granite seams don't take any longer than a solid surface seam. We usually take a couple of extra men to carry large tops though.

"Ripping out existing counters often damages cabinets, which even have to be cut to accommodate the granite."  No it doesn't. We have never damaged a cabinet during demo.


" I've never heard of a contractor that is able to complete the demolition of the old counters and the installation of the new counters in a day."  I don't doubt this statement. It seems this lady just started in the business today or granite transformations sells their franchises like they sell their countertops.

"Ask anyone that has lived through a demolition if they mind the mess, the expense of eating out, not having a kitchen, and the total inconvenience whether they would do it again. I bet they say a resounding NO!" If the lady is at home, she could fix a sandwhich or go to Mcdonalds .:laughing: Or just miss lunch.

"Neither does Granite Transformations contribute to filling landfills with the debris from demolition. It's a GREEN product, which benefits everyone. " Green? How is your resin content, which you guys are representing by weight, not volumne (sneaky!), green? You have to mine the quartz from a mountain somewhere, is that green? Or are you growing it somewhere, fess up, where are the quartz farmers? 

Granite transformations has a serious problem with their corporate culture if this is how they market their product. You guys have beat the "save thousands" and "save weeks of demo time" here on this forum despite others countering your propaganda with facts. Then unhappy customers are called liars and deadbeats, with collection action threatened. And it is one after another francise owner showing up to dig the hole deeper.

Basic integrity is lacking in the sales effort, is there any guarantee that integrity will be there once problems start showing up?


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

*Granite Transformations Facts*

Ok, I stand corrected. I was mistaken that ordinary slab granite can be installed in a day or so. I didn't know that pre-existing surfaces could be removed so easily. 

It's unfortunate that sarcasm and such hostility is used by some posters at this site. I would not be reduced to such a level. After all, is this forum for discussion, and not accusation? Let's keep it civilized, please?

Anyway, Granite Transformations is still a superior product to ordinary slab granite. Durability, functionality, heat, scratch, stain resistant, mold and mildew resistant with ANSI II certification, no maintenance, meaning no sealing or chemical treatments necessary, seams if required are nearly invisible, water resistant, using certified fabricators and installers, just a few reasons. 

As for being GREEN, the manufacturing plant uses less energy to produce the slabs than regular granite manufacturing. Having US based manufacturing plants eliminates expensive transportation costs and sea traffic pollution. The manufacturing plant in Sebring, Florida has been featured on the Discovery Channel as an environmentally sound factory, using innovative techniques and less energy than ordinary granite manufacturing plants. Installing over the existing counters instead of overburdening landfills with undesired materials is a feature. The recycled glass & granite blends contain up to 72% post consumer recycled content, like headlights and bottles. The manufacturing process uses 65% less material than 3/4" slabs. Green? You bet.

The agglomerates are an engineered stone, composed of 93% granite and 7% polymer resin. The grit is made of quartz, granite, or glass, depending on the product line. The raw material is crushed into 9 different sizes, blended with the resin, and pigmented for colorization. The grains are selected according to size, color, and type to obtain the unique look of each blend. The blends are poured out onto fiberglass mesh backing to add durability. Then, the slabs are honed and polished to give the material the shine. The slabs are 1/4 inch thick and weigh 100lbs. Ordinary slab granite weighs 800lbs per slab. 

Granite Transformations uses a supplier which has been in business for nearly 50 years, Trend USA. Fly by night? I don't think so. Originally from Vincenza, Italy, and installed in airport concourses, government buildings, business centers, the company opened franchises in New Zealand and Australia, and eventually in the United States. 

Those are facts. No attacks on other products, no bull. No propaganda. Brainwashed? No. Educated? Yes.

Granite Transformations is not for everyone, certainly. Those consumers looking for a superior product backed by a lifetime warranty from a company that has a long history and a bright future will find it at Granite Transformations.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

WOW, nice sales pitch
So when did you start your franchise?


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't have a franchise personally. I manage the office. I do appreciate the information everyone has posted about demolition and their experiences. I am always hoping to learn more about the biz! :thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, we f igured you were GT :yes:


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

GTJulie, that's me!


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

One of the most impressive and popular features of Granite Transformations is the no maintenance factor. Spills like champagne, wine, coffee, lemon juice, or other liquids that will stain ordinary granite do not penetrate the non-porous surface of engineered granite. I have heard that ordinary granite can be treated by the consumer for as little as $25 every three to six months, but to hire a treatment company can cost up to $250, again every three to six months. If you do not seal ordinary granite, then you live with bacteria, which flourish in the pores of the stone. There is no sealing necessary, no chemical treatments with Granite Transformations. Just a cleanser like Windex, or even just soap and water will suffice. Ordinary granite is porous, so it will absorb liquids and stain. Grout will do the same and when you have stains and bacteria, you get odors. I wouldn't put ordinary granite in my kitchen, personally, and especially not in the bathroom, where there is so much water near the sink and tub or shower. 

Basically, Granite Transformations and other engineered granite outperforms ordinary granite in every way.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually I thought it was all the GT employees posting here as one post wonders praising the company as their most impressive feature. Most companies when they have good product & support do not need to try to slant things in their favor

The 1/2 truths & flat out lies that your company pushes on the consumer is a disgrace. As is the treatment of a customer who came here with valid complaints

When are you going to fix what your installers mucked up???


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## Kiwi. (Aug 9, 2007)

Maintenance? 

Newer granite sealers are now being offered with 10-15 year guarantees, so the maintenance agrument is pretty much nill. There's no re-sealing every 2-3 months, and that's an exageration as well. If you don't get a long term sealer you only need to re-seal annually. 

The whole 'demolition' and 'maintenance free' sales pitch of GT is a crock. But I do agree with you that people should be educated so they know what they're getting themselved in for.


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

You can read again that I wrote that granite sealers need to be every three to six months, not 2-3 as I was incorrectly quoted. 

I'm sure that all Granite Transformations employees do not have time to post here. I'm just taking a few moments to state what my personal experience is for those who read this forum. 

When the 10-15 year warranty sealers, which cost up to $500 are applied, they do not penetrate into the granite, but only cover the surface. Neither do the sealers prevent cracks in the granite. There's no sealer that will prevent cracks.

The point with Granite Transformations is that there is no need for sealing, as the product is non-porous; it's impervious to liquids due to the polymer resin blend.

The statements of fact regarding Granite Transformations as maintenance-free and no demolition is exactly that: FACT!

I've stated only facts, as I understand them, in this forum. It is always my goal to provide excellent customer service, as well as be polite, listen carefully, and do the most I can to satisfy a customer's expectations. 

I don't understand what Scuba Dave is talking about "your installers mucking up." Could you be more specific? 

There are always going to be customers who can never be satisfied. Anyone that has been in business for a length of time will attest to that. Some customers are simply more difficult to please. In my position, I always, with every customer, go above and beyond expectation to satisfy customers. That's my personal philosophy and I think the philosophy of most, if not all, Granite Transformations franchises. 

I do continue to appreciate the contribution the other posters have made here. The more I know about what others are saying about Granite Transformations, as well as other products, the more effective I can be in informing the public about their home improvement projects.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Why don't you just go away while you are ahead??
I think that would be the best thing you could do for GT
You just keep showing & posting lies that are totally untrue, making your company look worse


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## GTJulie (Feb 12, 2009)

I stand by everything I have written in this forum. Nothing I have stated is inaccurate, untrue, or lies. Where I have been corrected, I have acknowledged. 

I can't be making Granite Transformations "look worse" by stating the facts about the product. It's a great product, and that's that.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

GTJulie said:


> I stand by everything I have written in this forum. Nothing I have stated is inaccurate, untrue, or lies


Another lie, what a surprise


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## Kiwi. (Aug 9, 2007)

GTJulie said:


> You can read again that I wrote that granite sealers need to be every three to six months, *not 2-3 as I was incorrectly quoted.*


2-3 months was incorrectly quoted. But 3-6 months is still an incredible exaggeration.



GTJulie said:


> When the 10-15 year warranty sealers, which cost up to $500 are applied, *they do not penetrate into the granite*, but only cover the surface. Neither do the sealers prevent cracks in the granite. There's no sealer that will prevent cracks.


This is incorrect.



GTJulie said:


> The statements of fact regarding Granite Transformations as maintenance-free and no demolition is exactly that: FACT!


No one said these weren't facts. The extent of these benefits is just grossly exaggerated and I believe is misleading to potential customers.


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

Your first post today was much better GTJulie. You still have some learing to do though.

Sarcasm and hostility could have been caused by speakiing of that of which you know little. Plus your treatement of Jason didn't exactly set the stage for a civil discussion.

However, we can have a civil discussion as long as you understand that I despise those who oversell their countertop products be it willingly or out of ignorance. I see it as cheating consumers. Motivation matters little to those taken advantage of.

Looking at your product's warranty belies some of your sales pitch though. For instance, it doesn't cover thermal shock, so how can you claim heat resistance? It doesn't cover chemical abuse, without explaining if that is battery acid or windex or bleach. They don't cover the joints failure or breakage.

Note sure which are Trend stones, but they warn that some areas are susceptible to staining, abrasion (scratching),and can etch from vinegar, wine, lemon juice, orange or other citric juices, or other weak acids. That would also include ketchup, some salad dressings, soda pop, coffee, plenty of household foods and liquids.

In their FAQ's, they claim "You can even place a hot skillet right on the countertop". Sure, cause when it thermo cracks the top, they have excluded it from the warranty.

I had to look pretty hard to find the careand cleaning instructions, but once found, they also contridict most of the marketing hype as well as some of your comments here on this thread.

http://www.granitetransformations.com/Care&Handling.pdf

On # 1. they say to avoid steel wool, scourers, abrasive cleaners or acetone. (The final finish on solid surface is with a scotchbrite pad and we encourage homeowners to use Comet or Bon Ami).

# 2. warns to use a trivet, heat pad or chopping block such as a cast iron frying pan (hey, they just told us we could put a hot skillet on the top!)

# 3. warns that the product is scratch resistant, not scratch proof.

#4. warns that the product is resistant to "most" common foods and liquids, as long as you don't leave spills overnight. They warn that acidic and alkaline products can cause damage, and not to place painted baskets or stained containers (wood stained crates or baskets?). They say the baskets will bleed stain or paint and become a permanent part of the countertop. Isn't that a "stain"?

In the Mother of Pearl Agglomerate section, there is also a mention of using a wet look color enhancing sealer, then they claim their products are non-absorbant, yet also say sealing will give you more time to react to any kind of spill. 

So much double talk!

In comparison, look up the care and cleaning brochure for Living Stone, a solid surface sold by U.S. Surface Warehouse.

So our discussion and your own product's website information has knocked down claims of heat, scratch, and stain resistance. I doubt that your seams are nearly invisible, the product is too hard to be cut with that precision. Solid surface can have invisible seams because the product can be precisely machined, hard enough to hold up to normal use, but still can be routered within 3 thousandths of an inch required for an invisible seam. I don't know about water resistace, one of your former franchise owners made the point that the sinks are the weak point.

Now, your points on no maintenance, using certified fabricators are good points. And it isn't likely that your product will mold or mildew like some granites.

"Installing over the existing counters instead of overburdening landfills with undesired materials is a feature."

Sigh.... has anyone done the math before using this claim? 

50 square feet average countertop x 1" thick = 4.1666 cubic feet of wast, but the top isn't one inch thick, laminate and particle board top is only .8125 inch thick, so that makes 3.38 cubic feet of waste countertop. Now I've never worked this product, but it is a slab product similar to granite or quartz, which have an average 35% waste factor. So, your product is a quarter inch thick, and since I am ignorant of the size of slabs, let's assume they are the same as quartz slabs, 118 x 55 in most cases. Each slab would have 45 square feet with 15.75 square feet of waste on the average at .25" thick, or 3.93 cubic feet of waste that winds up in the land fill. The vast majority of that laminate top( 3/4" particle board) will decompose but your scrap likely won't be recycled by nature.

And I've already pointed out that your product, like all quartz products, isn't 7% by volume, but by weight. It is more like 28% to 35% resin by volume just like quartz and the other engineered stones. Guess what? Most solid surfaces are 30% resin , with the rest being ATH (an oxide of aluminum or bauxite, the third most common mineral in the earth's crust at 8%). 

So your product is no greener than solid surface.

Julie, there is having a discussion and there is quoting propaganda or marketing hype. One good thing that comes out of these interent battles is the truth comes out for those that read all the posts. Were I selling granite transformations, I would set down and look at their marketing spiel line by line and chuck anything that couldn't be defended. Just sell the products on it's merits. It has a distintive modern look, can actually save some demo on the old 1920 and 30's tile counters where they poured a concrete sub base for the tile, but it isn't one tenth of what your marketing claims. That leaves enormous openings for those like me that will call you on your claims.

Just sell it honestly. We sell all sorts of products except for the thin veneers like yours (cause they don't save any money and have inherent problems), but we sell each product warts and all then let the customer decide.


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

No, don't use Windex, which has a pH of pH 10.5 to 11.0, so pretty alkaline. # 4. on your warranty warns about not using alkaline products.
 
"Basically, Granite Transformations and other engineered granite outperforms ordinary granite in every way"

What is the resin in your product? Most quartz products use polyester resin which has it's issues. Avonite has a polyester line of solid surface, but some colors can yellow a bit over time, as will polyester resin in some granites and quartz products.

And there is no time frame on sealing granite, a water test will tell you when it needs another coat, depends on what and how you clean the top and the type of granite. You exagerate the need for constant sealing for some granites in the market place.

Yeah, it isn't a matter of if some granite will crack, but when, but your own warranty doesn't cover breakage, so how is your product any better?

"it's impervious to liquids due to the polymer resin blend." 

Sigh... see my previous post where I quoted and linked to your own warranty and care and cleaning page. By your own logic, 7% of the product is impervous due to the resin content.

"Where I have been corrected, I have acknowledged. "

Let's be fair to Julie, she has apolgized for one point where she was proven wrong. Let's give her a chance to read my posts and her companies own information before we blast her anymore. One thing is certain though, she can't ignore what her own company says about their product.


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## kitchenhappy (Apr 27, 2009)

GTJulie said:


> I don't have a franchise personally. I manage the office. I do appreciate the information everyone has posted about demolition and their experiences. I am always hoping to learn more about the biz! :thumbup:


why are those guys so interested in bashing GT? You have given excellent info and they must be inherently disgruntled slab granite providers. Must be all that heavy lifting. I know that in this tight economy people are looking for different options and GT is a good one. I like that it's environmentally friendly. A person doesn't have to contribute to the land fill with this product.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Probably because of the bad experiences, seemingly shifty qoutes, refusal to itemize pricing, & the one post wonders who come on here to tout its benefits


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

kitchen happy,

what you didn't see is the edited posts that lead up to this exchange. like Scuba Dave pointed out, granite transformations has a history of shilling their product by company employees, franchise owners, or posing as actual consumers. Most of these internet forums are quite harsh on shills, as they should be to preserve the integrity of the information.

Now your last post is nothing more than an attempt to demonize those that are providing information to consumers. Which speaks volumes about your lack of facts to respond honestly. Everyone responded to GT Julie point by point and provided either logic, links, or facts to back up their points.

Besides, all of your points have been addressed again and again. The landfill claim, that granite transformations saves all this money and land fill space. My contractor charges about $50 to remove a countertop if he gets the sink hookup as well ($250 total) and the average kitchen countertop (75 square feet x 13/16" thick) is less than 3.5 cubic feet to put in a landfill, or a 1 foot x 1 foot x 3 1/2 foot tall cube. Given that most people won't buy a countertop very often, our nations lanfills aren't about to overflow from countertops. To be honest, you need to point out the waste factor inherrent in your product, how that would subtract from the landfill space savings. 

As to choices in a tight economy, your companies greatest fear is that a customer will shop around and see just how overpriced granite transformations really is. Read what the consumers that have posted in this thread have said, granite transformations is an unique look, but it is anything but economical.

And again, how is the product environmentaly friendly? It is a quartz based product which has to be stripmined no different than other products, it uses a polyester resin like all other quartz products, and has a huge waste factor like all quartz and granite products. Worse is the way it is sold, as part of a huge impersonal franchise adding costs to the product but no value. You guys have to be expensive, look at all the marketing dollars you spend.

Were I granite transformations, I would look at how many times their name is repeated in these threads, consider how google ranks their search results, and realize that the longer you guys keep this open sore on your reputation running, the higher the google ranking and the more people will read the negative posts. Sometimes it is best to remain quiet.


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## Nashvillian (May 1, 2009)

I had someone from GT come out and give me a quote on a recycled glass overlay countertop today. The product is beautiful and the price was reasonable so they are in consideration at this point. We are looking for an environmentally friendly product and process and the recycled glass and no-demo process appeal to us. I'm not concerned with the cost of demo, but I don't want our old counters to be thrown in a landfill, even if it doesn't take up very much space there. Granite is totally out for us, as is anything else that comes from virgin or non-renewable sources. The problem I'm having is that GT's recycled glass counters are made with a polyester resin which is 75% higher in VOCs than epoxy resin and the adhesive they use to affix it to the existing counter is also high in VOCs. Does anyone know of another company that produces a recycled glass product that fits over existing countertops? I'm trying to find one that's a little more green and that uses low VOC resin and adhesive. Thanks.


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

The polyester resins will be inert "IF" the product is properly steam cured immeadiately after pouring. I explain this process to customers by using the example of baking a cake. If the oven is at the right temperature and the cake is cooked for the required amount of time, the cake will be cooked perfectly. Polyester resins require much the same care when manufacturing. If done properly, the individual ingredients link up into polymers, one molecule becomeing one new molecule, and the bond can't be broken even by the original solvents.

Some major screw ups have happened with companies trying to pour their own polyester solid surface without having proper curing equipment. I would check that granite transformations has curing ovens if you are worried about any VOCs. I've seen chinsese polyester solid surfaces that changed texture after installation and one local company was near bankrupted because of their polyester products changing color, warping, and breaking due to problems that lead back to manufacturing defects caused by lack of proper equipment.

Keep an eye out on those cement based recylced countertop materials. We looked at a few to fabricate, but the fly ash content put us off. Fly ash has a lot of heavy metals content and can have radio nucleides present. Granite transformations reported that one of two of their colors has elevated radon emissions (.4 pCi/L if I remember right), likely caused by fly ash content or the aggregrate being slightly radioactive.

Have you considered the amount of VOCs and pollution generated by working more hours to pay for a higher cost countertop? And wouldn't a local product be more "green" sometimes?


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## Nashvillian (May 1, 2009)

Good info...thanks very much!! We're really just starting our research on this whole thing, so I'm trying to get as much info as possible so that we choose something we like and that is environmentally-friendly, all things considered. There are sooooo many options, and each one says it's "greener" than the next, so it takes some research and comparison. A local product probably would be more green, all things being equal. The GT rep told me the recycled glass product is manufactured in Florida and fabricated here. I'll definitely check into the curing oven if GT makes our short list of options. Good to know about the flyash in the cement-based recycled countertops. We were looking into Vetrazzo which I think is cement-based, so that info is helpful. That would also require ripping out the old counters, which we'd rather not do...unless we can donate them or something.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The information discussed about radionuclides (not radio nucleides) is misleading. Radon emissions are not measured in pC/l, that is a measure of the airborne concentration of radon gas. Radioactive emissions from a source would be measured in curies or becquerels. The actual concentration of radon in the air would be a function of the size of the room and the air exchange rate as well as the size of the source and the concentration of uranium in the source.

Radon gas is a product of the breakdown of uranium, which occurs naturally in rock. Certain rock types have naturally higher concentrations of uranium than others, and granite in particular is well known for having relatively higher concentrations of uranium than most sedimentary rocks. Therefore, any product that uses granite, either in the form of slabs or chips, is going to emit radon gas, generally at a very low level. This means that the granite countertop in my house emits radon gas, and any granite transformation product made in part from granite chips would also be a radioactive source. As would the concrete in your foundation, and just about anything else in your house.

The amount of radioactivity in most products is so low as to be inconsequential. Radon in your house may be a problem if you are on well water that has elevated radon levels, or you have radon in your basement due to the underlying bedrock. But I would not lose any sleep over radioactivity from a concrete countertop, granite countertop, or granite transformation countertop emitting radon.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You lost me at radionuclides


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## Al Gerhart (Dec 16, 2008)

*We are lucky Daniel is an engineer and not a radiation enthusiast*

Daniel,

You don't know much about radon research. It is the custom here in the U.S. to use pCi/SF/hr instead of Bq/SM/hr like the rest of the world does. Same thing with radiation units, they use standard units and we stick with our old rad, rem, and roetgen. Or you are one of those hair splitters that love to dazzle others with your precise use of terms. For public discussions, one is better off keeping as much jargon as possible out, especially when talking about radon or radiation where it glazes peoples eyes over on the first paragraph. The use of two sets of units would be ridiculous.

Here is a link that explains the dual use, look for table 2, units.
http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/radon.htm#units

Here is another example, note the use of pCi/L then they put the standard unit in parasenthesis. 

_http://www.aarst.org/proceedings/2008/12-EMISSION_OF_RADON_FROM_DECORATIVE_STONE.pdf


_Here are some more errors in your post. You wrote:
"Therefore, any product that uses granite, either in the form of slabs or chips, is going to emit radon gas, generally at a very low level."

Congratulations, you made four mistakes in one sentence. Not all granite produces radon. Some stones have little to no uranium present, the radiation comes from potassium (only 13% gamma) or thorium (produces thoron gas, not radon gas, no one really knows what the thoron risk from granite is). You also are ignorant about the chips used in other products, most is quartz chips, not granite. Granite has a lot of feldspar, mica, and other softer chemically unstable minerals so no one is using "granite" chips in engineered products like quartz slabs.

The quartz manufactures had their products tested for radiation and radon and I sent three full sample boxes out of our showroom to two different researchers for testing. No radon, no radiation present. Were I you, I would check the facts before sounding off on a subject you know very, very, little of.

Lastly, saying that stone generally emits at low levels without knowing the facts is quite irresponsible. Most are low, it is looking like 5% of all stones are going to be the problem materials but too few slabs of too few granite types have been studied. Just when we think one stone is safe, we find a kitchen with elevated radon due to the granite countertop. More important, it is illrelevant that most are safe, it is the unsafe ones that we should be concerned about.

You also wrote:

"But I would not lose any sleep over radioactivity from a concrete countertop, granite countertop, or granite transformation countertop emitting radon."

Again ignorance is at play. Last years AARST convention had three papers presented that covered concrete radon, and three that covered granite countertop radon/radiation issues, and another that set a protocol for measuring granite countertops using E-Perms. Here is last years list of papers presented. Look for Bill Brodhead's paper on granite and concrete and you will find my name mentioned as one of the providers of samples for the study.

http://www.aarst.org/radon_research_papers.shtml

Furthermore, at that joint AARST/CRCPD convention, there was an hour long panel discussion on the granite controversy on Tuesday, and on Wendsday both CRCPD and AARST (state radiaton protection officials organization and radon scientists organization) produced committees that are setting testing protocols and maximum allowed limits for radiation/radon from granite countertop materials. Apparently this group of leading experts were losing sleep over radon from building materials.

I would advise that you read the entire thread before making claims that others have posted misleading information. Follow the discusssion and some of the links before you criticise others. As for pointing out spelling or typos, typical anal retentive personality. Most of us don't proof read simple posts. Get a life.


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