# Steel I-Beam Choice for Aircraft Hangar Apartment



## kgphoto (Dec 2, 2007)

You need to hire an engineer who's qualified and experienced in this type of work.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

Actually, you would be well served by having a steel building manufacturer design this building for you, including the mezzanine deck (2nd floor) you desire. This is not a DIY or local architect type of venture.....50 or 60 foot spans with residential floor loads are pretty significant. 

I have built one once, and we beat the span by allowing columns 20 feet inside the hangar door. This allowed 40 feet (in this case) wide by 20 deep for the wings, and cut all the spans to 20 feet. The floor was supported with bar joists and 1-1/8 T&G flooring above, and a layer of 3 inch white vinyl back fiberglass for insulating the floor. Yes, the columns can be "in the way", but if you allow the engineer to have them, you can save a bunch of money. If you insists on 50 feet or greater spans (material stock lengths are 40, typically), you find other things besides airplanes cost big money. 

If you think about what I have verbally told you, you can draw a box, or rectangle, and grid it, on 20 foot centers. Draw lines across the narrow side of the building. connecting the dots...these would be the main beams, attached wall to column to column to wall again, and the bar joists would be carried on these, spanning beam to beam. Now you can see how this is done. You could alter the design to allow hangar doors on both ends, or sides.


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

Would having the 2nd floor suspended from the roof require smaller I-beams for the support of the decking of the 2nd floor?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

And how would you support the weight of the floating structure from the roof? Follow Joasis's suggestion, and that you should be contacting a builder in Steel structures, due to a Aircraft hanger is not a DIY project. BTW, have you ever looked at some of the hangers made for what you are looking at doing?

http://sprucecreekrental.com/Floor_Plan/Hanger/hanger.html


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

If the floor load of a mezzanine deck were shifted to the mainframes of a building, their size would triple, literally. Talk to a steel building company, and tell them what you want. Quotes are free from national companies like Anthem Steel or General Steel.

Nice link Greg....I especially like the Velocity in the hangar...pretty awesome bi fold door system as well. I had the opportunity to fly a Velocity at Oshkosh '99, and nearly squeezed the trigger and bought the kit.....since I quit flying, and lost interest in things with wings, I am glad I didn't make the purchase.


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> And how would you support the weight of the floating structure from the roof?


I figured that it could be something like a roof truss that you see in a house, but maybe with just vertical members instead of diagonal ones... That would make it such that the 2nd floor was not completely open, but would end up with what looked like support columns every 20 ft or so...


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

joasis said:


> Quotes are free from national companies like Anthem Steel or General Steel.


http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/188/RipOff0188089.htm

Hmmm... Kind of makes me wonder about those two companies though...


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## BuiltByMAC (Jan 31, 2008)

Hmmm, those were just one avenue Joasis gave you to start you on the path to getting your hanger built. I would hope you wouldn't be like the guy in that ripoff article and fax off a $10,000 check after signing a "barely legible" contract in a high pressure sales tactic. That was just plain stupidity.
Don't be stupid and chances are, you won't get ripped off.

Although coming into a diy chatroom and asking what size I-beams you need to build a second story apartment over a 60' clear span indicates you don't even know where to begin with this project. Engineers are the folks who can rate beams for spans and they don't give that info out freely. They need to be intimate with the details of your project to come up with the right numbers. Anything less opens them up for liability issues and lawsuits galore...

Glad you know how to research online, find yourself a reputable builder in your area and get a bid for your project. This is not a DIY weekend project...

Mac


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

BuiltByMAC said:


> Hmmm, those were just one avenue Joasis gave you to start you on the path to getting your hanger built. I would hope you wouldn't be like the guy in that ripoff article and fax off a $10,000 check after signing a "barely legible" contract in a high pressure sales tactic. That was just plain stupidity.
> Don't be stupid and chances are, you won't get ripped off.


Agreed... If a company says that the price is "only good for today", I look elsewhere... Even with highly fluctuating material prices, a quote should be good for more than a single day... If they want to press, I'll just give them the number of a local timeshare 'resort' that tries the same approach... They should have fun with each other...:wink:



BuiltByMAC said:


> Although coming into a diy chatroom and asking what size I-beams you need to build a second story apartment over a 60' clear span indicates you don't even know where to begin with this project. Engineers are the folks who can rate beams for spans and they don't give that info out freely. They need to be intimate with the details of your project to come up with the right numbers. Anything less opens them up for liability issues and lawsuits galore...


For the most part, I'm just trying to collect enough information that I can do a ballpark estimate of the costs of the structure so that I don't get screwed when I do go to a professional company to get the building built... This allows me to explore various designs and throw out ones that would not work from an economical standpoint without having to waste the time of an engineer on the matter...



BuiltByMAC said:


> Glad you know how to research online, find yourself a reputable builder in your area and get a bid for your project. This is not a DIY weekend project...


No, I don't expect to be able to build it myself, but I expect to be able to subcontract the work out to other companies that are able to do it themselves... I'll subcontract out the slab, building frame, shell, and such... Some of the subcontractors will be the ones that do local housing development in the area since once the shell is created and the 2nd floor is open, putting up he non-load bearing walls and trim will be pretty much the same for this type of building as it would be for a normal house...


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## BuiltByMAC (Jan 31, 2008)

diy-581 said:


> For the most part, I'm just trying to collect enough information that I can do a ballpark estimate of the costs of the structure *so that I don't get screwed when I do go to a professional company* to get the building built... This allows me to explore various designs and throw out ones that would not work from an economical standpoint without having to waste the time of an engineer on the matter...


You won't find a whole lot of people online willing to toss out ballpark numbers on spans and beam sizes due to liability issues. I would highly recommend contacting some past clients of any company you are looking at - they should be able to tell you if the company has a history of screwing people over.

I understand your position more and respect your interest in researching your options.

Good luck with the project,

Mac


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm an engineer, albeit not a mechanical engineer... My background is BS in CS with a minor in Math, MS in CS with a minor in EE in addition to 4 years of drafting in high school and working as a draftsman for an energy company 30+ years ago... As such, I prefer to be able to understand something without having to blindly take the word of someone else if at all possible... I've gone over various scenarios with the information available at www.efunda.com with regards to steel wide flange I-beams properties and the uniform load calculator... I need to do a bit more research to determine what type of load per sq-ft should I plan for with regards to floor loading... If I'm correct, then this will allow me to then determine the "line pressure load on beam" (i.e. 'p' in the equation)... Also, what type of deflection is acceptable in such a situation? Using a W18x119 with a moment of inertia of 2190, I get a deflection of 0.533 inches with the default 'p' of 10 psi-in... Assuming $0.40 per pound for the steel, then each beam would cost $7,140... Assuming a 60x60 building and thus 4 of those beams being necessary, then I'm looking at $28,560 just to put the base structure up for the 2nd floor... By being able to do calculations like this, I can play with the numbers a bit so that I can make compromises with regards to the size and shape of the building to maximize the usability of the building with regards to the size and shape of the lot in addition to the items that I would like to store there (i.e. 3 cars, jet boat, kayak, utility trailer, lawn tractor, ATV, aircraft, beer fridge, plus workshop tools and such)... http://www.efunda.com/math/areas/RolledSteelBeamsW.cfm

The older we get, the more toys we get (and the more expensive they get)...


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

You will have more in the beams and structure for the second floor, then in the outer shell of the building, easily. You don't indicate an area, but for example, in Oklahoma, a 60X60 with a bifold door, erected, would be around 45k. You can easily double that for the mezzanine floor. If you have the space, you might be advised to consider an apartment in one end, framed like a home, within the building...use the below area for parts and storage. We have built as few of these for people who want to live in the shop. 

By the way, the reference to Anthem or General was based on the fact, they give free quotes, and the preliminary price would be a good start. I bet if you look, you will find a steel building manufacturer in your area, or an erector that can get you in ouch with one. Estimates are free...if they go to prints, it is after the contract and down payment.


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

joasis said:


> You will have more in the beams and structure for the second floor, then in the outer shell of the building, easily. You don't indicate an area, but for example, in Oklahoma, a 60X60 with a bifold door, erected, would be around 45k. You can easily double that for the mezzanine floor. If you have the space, you might be advised to consider an apartment in one end, framed like a home, within the building...use the below area for parts and storage. We have built as few of these for people who want to live in the shop.


Unlike with a normal house, adding the 2nd floor over a clear span hangar floor really seems to increase the cost of the building disproportionately... The lot that I'm considering purchasing is 1/2 acre and there is no adjoining lot that I could purchase to give me a bit more breathing room... There are various setbacks that prevent me from taking up the entire lot... Basically, I need to leave room for other people to be able to taxi their aircraft near the property... I've created a spreadsheet so that I can play with the numbers a bit to determine optimal dimensions for the building... Reducing the clear span width allows a lighter weight I-beam to be used, but more of them will be used and more materials will be used on the exterior of the building... My gut feeling is that the increase in the cost of the exterior materials is overshadowed by what is probably saved by going to a lighter I-beam... In addition, I've drawn up a floorplan model in Visio and created rough objects for the space needed to park my various 'toys'... If at all possible, I want to have the entire living area on the 2nd floor... I'm in the Houston area and it is my view that we are only one slow moving tropical storm away from having flooded 1st floors no matter where you live in the area... I was here during Allison and that inconvenient little fact was definitely impressed upon me at that time... I figure that as long as it's not too terribly inconvenient, I'll put the living quarters on the 2nd floor...


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

If you have the bucks, call me, and I will be happy to make time this fall to build it...sounds like a nice project.


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## joasis (May 28, 2006)

joasis said:


> If you have the bucks, call me, and I will be happy to make time this fall to build it...sounds like a nice project.


BTW, there are several reputable metal building manufacturers in the Houston area....you should have no problem having good quotes in a week or less. They will have to know specific details, such as how far from the actual coastline (for codes, wind velocities), and how the building will be situated on the lot, etc. I would concentrate on drawing up what you want, and looking for a general contractor that might give you a labor only bid, since it sounds like you want to manage the project yourself.


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## diy-581 (Feb 2, 2008)

joasis said:


> BTW, there are several reputable metal building manufacturers in the Houston area....you should have no problem having good quotes in a week or less.


I noticed yesterday where the University of Houston is creating a new building near the Brazos River in their Fort Bend County campus... From the quick glance that I got of it as I drove by, it appears that it might be made in a manner that would work for the hangar I'm considering building... As far as I can tell, there appear to be clear spans of sufficient sizes for aircraft... It appears that it is going to be a 4 story building, but there should be no problem scaling it down to only 2 stories and making it not as wide or long... I think I'll go over there and talk to the construction company today... For this type of building, I believe that they use the corrugated metal forms and concrete for the floors on the upper levels... Although I would like the idea of a solid concrete floor on the 2nd floor, I have to say, I like the flexibility of having a wooden floor so that any future remodels are considerably easier since plumbing and electrical can be moved around so much easier... Basically, it's easier to drill a new hole in a plywood decking than it would be to drill a hole through a few inches of concrete slab... As in most things in life, it's a tradeoff...



joasis said:


> They will have to know specific details, such as how far from the actual coastline (for codes, wind velocities), and how the building will be situated on the lot, etc.


It's about 29 miles from the coast (assuming that you consider the Gulf side of Galveston island the coast and not the bay side of the mainland)... It's about 55 ft above sea level, so combined with the distance, storm surge is not an issue... I'm leaning towards overengineering the wind loads though... If it doesn't cost too much more, I would like to conform to the South Florida wind codes... One thing that we learned when Hurricane Rita came through was that even though the sustained winds were not that bad after it had been ashore for awhile, there still was a lot of damage from the smaller F1 type tornadoes that got kicked up along the way... Short of a monolithic concrete structure or building underground (not really an option if you are also worried about flooding), you're not going to protect yourself from an F5 type tornado, but you might be able to minimize the direct wind damage from the low F1s that are more common when hurricanes hit around here... Of course, the real problem with these low level tornadoes is the debris that they pick up and toss around... A metal skinned building is not going to do much for that sort of potential damage...



joasis said:


> I would concentrate on drawing up what you want, and looking for a general contractor that might give you a labor only bid, since it sounds like you want to manage the project yourself.


Well, I want the capability to be able to manage it myself, even if I don't actually end up doing it... It's kind of like changing the oil on my car... I know how to do it and when time permits, I prefer to do it myself, but if I'm in a hurry, I'll have it done at Wal-Mart or wherever while I'm shopping for other things... Of course, I always check their work to ensure that they did it right (I had a car catch on fire because a Firestone store forgot to put the oil filler cap back on the engine)...


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