# Behr paint or other....



## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Valspar is decent enough.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I used some of this( customers choice) yesterday, it was OK


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

The Valspar Signature is approximately priced the same than the Behr Premium Plus Ultra
Any experience with the Behr as well? Is the Valspar better or globally the same?


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## costgeek (Dec 6, 2014)

I think Valspar is pretty equivalent to Behr. I've used both and they seem to work well. Make sure you search for promos and coupons if you want to try Valspar. I see $5 off per gallon on Lowes premium paints all the time.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Comparing Behr to Valspar is like comparing Ford trucks to Chevy trucks. Do they do the same thing? yup. Is either one a BMW or Mercedes? Nope. Can you buy a BMW grade paint for less then 10% more than Behr or Valspar? Yes you can. Personally, if a painter showed up at my house with either one, I wouldn't be happy. But if it's the price only that you are worried about, I think you should save a few more $1 bills and go with Ben Moore. The application is a lot less frustrating and the actual finish is much smoother and consistent. But if all you want is a new color as cheaply as possible and your personal time is worthless, the box store paints will do just fine.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

Which Ben Moore that is less than 10% more than Vaslpar or Behr would you recoomend?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> Which Ben Moore that is less than 10% more than Vaslpar or Behr would you recoomend?


 Valspar signature matte is $31.98 Behr premium plus ultra is about the same Ben Moore Ben is in the mid thirties depending who you buy it from. Pratt and Lambert Redseal flat is $32.99 at suggested retail and there is also a $5.00/gallon rebate on it. But again, P&L dealers are free to charge more for retail if they want, so it depends who you buy it from. Ben and Redseal are both much better paints in that mid $30.00 range. but you will have to go out of your way a little bit to find them. They aren't for sale at Walmart.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

There is a BM store close to where I live...no problem
Which paint should I look for: 
Ben Interior, Regal Select interior, Aura interior
The cheapest one is the 1st one, at $38/gal but doesn't come in satin:
http://store.benjaminmoore.com/stor...rior-paints/ben-interior-paint/prodPRM06.html

Then the Regal, but it's more expensive, and still no satin
http://store.benjaminmoore.com/stor...ts/regal-select-interior-paint/prodPRM40.html

And dfinally the Aura, in satin but much more expensive:
http://store.benjaminmoore.com/stor...ior-paints/aura-interior-paint/prodPRM24.html


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm not clear on what you're trying to find. I think you want find something markedly better than Behr (Premium Plus? Premium Plus Ultra?) for about the same price. If the scuttlebutt at PaintTalk is correct, the Sherwin-Williams products at Lowes are re-labeled Superpaint and Duration, or you could go to Sherwin-Williams stores during a 30% or 40% off sale. Otherwise, unless you get a lucky mistint or closeout, there's nothing I can think of. If you're a professional buying many gallons a week, you get better prices on the good stuff. The rest of us pay full freight.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

french_guy said:


> There is a BM store close to where I live...no problem
> Which paint should I look for:
> Ben Interior, Regal Select interior, Aura interior
> The cheapest one is the 1st one, at $38/gal but doesn't come in satin:
> ...


Sheen names are nearly meaningless. Look at the TDS to compare. Here's the list for Benjamin Moore: http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-contractors/master-list-of-technical-data-sheets-tds 
They have a satin sheen for Regal, but they call it Pearl, unlike most of the other lines of BM interior paint. The pearl finish in Regal is 15-25 units of gloss, which is very much like the satin Behr Ultra. BM's satin in other paint lines is glossier than most other brands' satin, around 25-35 units, and is frequently used on trim. 

Since you'll need two gallons to paint two coats on 450 square feet of wall, note that you can often box (i.e. mix together) paints of the same type in different gloss levels to get the desired sheen. Not always, though. Best to check with the manufacturer.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> There is a BM store close to where I live...no problem
> Which paint should I look for:
> Ben Interior, Regal Select interior, Aura interior
> The cheapest one is the 1st one, at $38/gal but doesn't come in satin:
> ...


 To do two coats, you would need two gallons of paint. The extra $14.00 or so to get the Ben product line is money well spent. Benjamin Moore does run $5.00 rebate promotions from time to time, so maybe watch out for that. If the Valspar and Behr paints are priced for your budget, the Regal and Aura are obviously high. But if you have a little higher budget available, either one is way above any Valspar or Behr as far as quality is concerned. Your are talking the difference between paints that are manufactured to be sold at a particular price, as opposed to Ben Moore which is manufactured to a quality level. They typically cater to a much smaller market segment then the box store brands, but there really is a reason why they are priced higher. Think Kia vs.Bmw. They both are basically the same thing, but one is a much higher quality.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

If you're looking for a paint that's going to cost you less than $25 per gallon, read no further.

I use Pratt & Lambert Accolade Satin in the F4790 tint base on my walls. It costs close to $50 Cdn per gallon, but it doesn't spatter AT ALL, and that saves me the hassle of having to spread drop cloths.

I literally paint my living room walls with nothing protecting the carpet. I do keep a spray bottle with water in it and a wet/dry vaccuum cleaner handy in case any paint drips off the roller sleeve and falls on the carpet.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

CyrusR said:


> I'm not clear on what you're trying to find. I think you want find something markedly better than Behr (Premium Plus? Premium Plus Ultra?) for about the same price. If the scuttlebutt at PaintTalk is correct, the Sherwin-Williams products at Lowes are re-labeled Superpaint and Duration, or you could go to Sherwin-Williams stores during a 30% or 40% off sale. Otherwise, unless you get a lucky mistint or closeout, there's nothing I can think of. If you're a professional buying many gallons a week, you get better prices on the good stuff. The rest of us pay full freight.


I've read multiple times that Behr was not a good paint....Some people say better leave bare drywall than putting Behr, other say Glidden, even cheaper, is better, etc.....
Anyway, my original question was to know if i could find a better paint around the same price
I know Ben Moore is a better grade paint, and since i only need 2 gallons, I don't really care about the $14 bucks difference. So are we talking about the "Ben Interior"? Or I really have to go with Regal or Aura to notice a difference with Behr?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Almost anything will show a difference from the Behr you used.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Personally, if I was looking at just the price, PPG speedhide eggshell,$34


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

french_guy said:


> I've read multiple times that Behr was not a good paint....Some people say better leave bare drywall than putting Behr, other say Glidden, even cheaper, is better, etc.....
> Anyway, my original question was to know if i could find a better paint around the same price
> I know Ben Moore is a better grade paint, and since i only need 2 gallons, I don't really care about the $14 bucks difference. So are we talking about the "Ben Interior"? Or I really have to go with Regal or Aura to notice a difference with Behr?


It's not the best, and its "paint and primer in one" marketing is deceptive, but it's good wall paint. If Sherwin-Williams made it, contractors would love it, and it would list for $50.99 a gallon, but you could get it for 30% off half the year.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> I've read multiple times that Behr was not a good paint....Some people say better leave bare drywall than putting Behr, other say Glidden, even cheaper, is better, etc.....
> Anyway, my original question was to know if i could find a better paint around the same price
> I know Ben Moore is a better grade paint, and since i only need 2 gallons, I don't really care about the $14 bucks difference. So are we talking about the "Ben Interior"? Or I really have to go with Regal or Aura to notice a difference with Behr?


The Ben is better then the Behr, hands down. At any price. Pratt & lambert Accolade is the most underrated paint you can buy. It will out perform anything from HD, Lowe's, or Sherwin Williams.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

chrisn said:


> Personally, if I was looking at just the price, PPG speedhide eggshell,$34


Wow! That stuff is getting expensive since I left PPG. We were lucky to get $20 a gallon back in 2008. Hard to believe paint has gone up that much in 7 years, but unless a company cheapens their product, the good all around paints are in the thirties now.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

klaatu said:


> The Ben is better then the Behr, hands down. At any price. Pratt & lambert Accolade is the most underrated paint you can buy. It will out perform anything from HD, Lowe's, or Sherwin Williams.


How would you compare the Ben Interior with the Pratt & Lambert Accolade?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> How would you compare the Ben Interior with the Pratt & Lambert Accolade?


 Accolade is more like the Regal Select line from BM. There is a $10.00 rebate until the 26th of this month on Accolade which if it is being sold at suggested retail brings the price down to $38.99 for flat and $39.99 for velvet (eggshell) finish. The Ben would compare performance wise with Pratt & Lambert's Redseal line, which is a little lower than the Ben retail price. You can't go wrong with any of these lines.All are much better then the Behr products. I have sold all three brands at one time or another. Had complaints almost daily on the Behr paints but almost never on the Ben Moore or Pratt & Lambert.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

klaatu said:


> Wow! That stuff is getting expensive since I left PPG. We were lucky to get $20 a gallon back in 2008. Hard to believe paint has gone up that much in 7 years, but unless a company cheapens their product, the good all around paints are in the thirties now.


that is retail pricing, not mine, I get is for $20.60 in flat


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

CyrusR said:


> It's not the best, and its "paint and primer in one" marketing is deceptive, but it's good wall paint. If Sherwin-Williams made it, contractors would love it, and it would list for $50.99 a gallon, but you could get it for 30% off half the year.


Not really true, I'm a Sherwin Williams guy and they make paint that is CHEAP Builders solutions come to mind. They make other lines of paint also that I don't like also, like Promar 700. I have had trouble with some paint have had them say yes bad paint our fault we will replace. I have paint delivered to my job site so I didn't have to stop and make a trip. If there is a problem there is someone to talk too, besides the guy that was selling flowers last week. 

Has behr improved their paint yes, enough to compare with SW or Benny Moore or PPG or Pratt Lambert, NO. Now about the $50 a gallon, haven't bought any Behr Marquee yet have you?

Rant over.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

chrisn said:


> that is retail pricing, not mine, I get is for $20.60 in flat


 That's more like it. I was just about to raise all my prices.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> Not really true, I'm a Sherwin Williams guy and they make paint that is CHEAP Builders solutions come to mind. They make other lines of paint also that I don't like also, like Promar 700. I have had trouble with some paint have had them say yes bad paint our fault we will replace. I have paint delivered to my job site so I didn't have to stop and make a trip. If there is a problem there is someone to talk too, besides the guy that was selling flowers last week.
> 
> Has behr improved their paint yes, enough to compare with SW or Benny Moore or PPG or Pratt Lambert, NO. Now about the $50 a gallon, haven't bought any Behr Marquee yet have you?
> 
> Rant over.


 And with the $45.99 gallon of behr marquee satin, you get a nice pebbly texture. Even the Semi gloss is pebbly. Someone at Pratt & Lambert would probably shoot themselves it Redseal did that.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> Not really true, I'm a Sherwin Williams guy and they make paint that is CHEAP Builders solutions come to mind. They make other lines of paint also that I don't like also, like Promar 700. I have had trouble with some paint have had them say yes bad paint our fault we will replace. I have paint delivered to my job site so I didn't have to stop and make a trip. If there is a problem there is someone to talk too, besides the guy that was selling flowers last week.
> 
> Has behr improved their paint yes, enough to compare with SW or Benny Moore or PPG or Pratt Lambert, NO. Now about the $50 a gallon, haven't bought any Behr Marquee yet have you?
> 
> Rant over.


Almost every time I go to my SW, there's some new 22 year old behind the counter... 

Marquee? Haven't tried it yet. If I'm going to spend 40+ for paint, I'll go to a real paint store (TM), of which there are no shortage around here. For wall paint for my rentals, it's the Depot, because I can't buy an equal or better product for that price at a real paint store, because I don't have a professional discount.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I like Behr Ultra. I haven't used Valspar Signature, but I've heard it's pretty decent.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> Valspar signature matte is $31.98 Behr premium plus ultra is about the same Ben Moore Ben is in the mid thirties depending who you buy it from. ...Ben and Redseal are both much better paints in that mid $30.00 range.


I don't think Ben is all that great. It's not even Regal. If you talk to a BM dealer, they will tell you Ben is on par with SuperPaint. But actually, SuperPaint is on par with Regal, and Ben is below that... at least technically - then it comes down to personal preference and biases.

The paint companies are starting to level out. New paints will come out, but there aren't going to be any paints wildly better than any other at the same price points. Paint companies price their paints based on big volume sold. Home Depot and Lowes move huge quantities of paints. They don't get their volume from contractors pushing thousands of gallons, they get their volume from millions of homeowners pushing a couple gallons each. About the same in their world. So the price reflects that. A homeowner can't go into SW and buy paint at retail and expect to get good market value. You would get better value for your dollar by going to Home Depot. For me, I have a choice between Behr Ultra and SuperPaint, because for me the prices are the same. For a homeowner, I think they should obviously buy Ultra or Valspar Signature for the price, because SW and BM retail paints are going to be way more expensive for the same quality.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

french_guy said:


> Ben Interior, Regal Select interior, Aura interior
> The cheapest one is the 1st one, at $38/gal but doesn't come in satin:/
> 
> Then the Regal, but it's more expensive, and still no satin
> ...


I think you might be getting too hung up on sheen. One company's satin is another company's eggshell. There is overlap.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

CyrusR said:


> Since you'll need two gallons to paint two coats on 450 square feet of wall


That is spreading paint awfully thin, to the point where you're going to get some show-throughs probably.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

french_guy said:


> I've read multiple times that Behr was not a good paint....Some people say better leave bare drywall than putting Behr


Absolute nonsense.



french_guy said:


> I know Ben Moore is a better grade paint


It's just not true. All this talk about car brands is misguided.

BM and SW are not inherently better quality paints. It all depends on the exact paint line. BM makes crappy paint. So does SW. And they both make good paint, as well.

If you want a car analogy, there is no such thing as a Chevrolet car. Every car is more specific than that. If one guy is driving a Corvette, and one guy is driving a Chevette, do you think you're going to get 2 different opinions on the quality of Chevrolet?

So talk specific paints, not companies. If you say Behr or Valspar or BM or SW, we still need to know what you mean.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> I don't think Ben is all that great. It's not even Regal. If you talk to a BM dealer, they will tell you Ben is on par with SuperPaint. But actually, SuperPaint is on par with Regal, and Ben is below that... at least technically - then it comes down to personal preference and biases.
> 
> The paint companies are starting to level out. New paints will come out, but there aren't going to be any paints wildly better than any other at the same price points. Paint companies price their paints based on big volume sold. Home Depot and Lowes move huge quantities of paints. They don't get their volume from contractors pushing thousands of gallons, they get their volume from millions of homeowners pushing a couple gallons each. About the same in their world. So the price reflects that. A homeowner can't go into SW and buy paint at retail and expect to get good market value. You would get better value for your dollar by going to Home Depot. For me, I have a choice between Behr Ultra and SuperPaint, because for me the prices are the same. For a homeowner, I think they should obviously buy Ultra or Valspar Signature for the price, because SW and BM retail paints are going to be way more expensive for the same quality.


 uhh. Go put your orange apron back on and get back to the tint counter.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> That is spreading paint awfully thin, to the point where you're going to get some show-throughs probably.


 uh. one gallon will do 400 sqft.theoretically. Take away doors and windows and you are less than 350sqft for the room. Basic paint 101. Two gallons of something that actually goes on the wall better than rubber cement. On second thought, this isn't worth my time.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> uh. one gallon will do 400 sqft.theoretically. Take away doors and windows and you are less than 350sqft for the room. Basic paint 101. Two gallons of something that actually goes on the wall better than rubber cement. On second thought, this isn't worth my time.


Uh. First of all, the majority of paints specify coverage of 350-400 sf.

Second, that's theoretically. Practically, humans can't normal achieve that kind of consistent film thickness perfection to get to 400 sf at the recommended wet film thickness.

Third, he didn't say 400 sf. He said 450 sf.

Fourth, he said 450 sf of wall space, he didn't say anything about windows or doors. Manufacturers aren't taking that into account either. (Hopefully that is obvious.)

If you are spreading today's paints at a rate of 450 sf/gallon, you are spreading it too thin. Thinner than the manufacturer recommended film thickness, and thinner than you can reasonably expect to achieve consistent thickness even if you accept a slightly thinner film. Considering the texture of your roller nap and the texture that is already on the wall (whether it be previous nap texture, or bare drywall paper texture), you just can't achieve a perfectly flat film.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> uhh. Go put your orange apron back on and get back to the tint counter.


Rather than taking snarky potshots and toeing the line with the good ol' boy network, why don't you provide some specific details about whatever issue it is you're having.

Behr Ultra Matte is $32 full retail. (Valspar Signature is the same price). I pay less than full retail at Home Depot and Lowes, and I pay a lot less than full retail at SW and BM. But as I already said, regular homeowners don't have that option unless there is a sale. So let's forget that, so we can compare apples to apples. Which paint at $32 full retail do you think is better than Ultra?

(And to get the ball rolling, we can eliminate ben right off the bat. It costs $38, and it's not as good as Ultra anyway.)


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> Rather than taking snarky potshots and toeing the line with the good ol' boy network, why don't you provide some specific details about whatever issue it is you're having.
> 
> Behr Ultra Matte is $32 full retail. (Valspar Signature is the same price). I pay less than full retail at Home Depot and Lowes, and I pay a lot less than full retail at SW and BM. But as I already said, regular homeowners don't have that option unless there is a sale. So let's forget that, so we can compare apples to apples. Which paint at $32 full retail do you think is better than Ultra?
> 
> (And to get the ball rolling, we can eliminate ben right off the bat. It costs $38, and it's not as good as Ultra anyway.)


 .....


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

chrisn said:


> .....


Another one with so much time on his hands he can spend it making posts that don't say anything.

To anyone who wants to actually participate, what are the best <$32 retail paints? And give a reason other than "Behr sucks". Hard data would be nice, as opposed to anecdotes and regurgitating myths.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc;1987882[COLOR=red said:


> ]Another one with so much time on his hands he can spend it making posts that don't say anything.[/COLOR]
> 
> To anyone who wants to actually participate, what are the best <$32 retail paints? And give a reason other than "Behr sucks". Hard data would be nice, as opposed to anecdotes and regurgitating myths.


............:laughing:


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Uh. First of all, the majority of paints specify coverage of 350-400 sf.
> 
> Second, that's theoretically. Practically, humans can't normal achieve that kind of consistent film thickness perfection to get to 400 sf at the recommended wet film thickness.
> 
> ...


 Question. What do most DIY'ers know about these things of which you speak? They are led to believe they just need one coat on everything. They know not of spread rates or mil thicknesses. That's how Behr and Valspar dodge any warranty issues. When it doesn't hide in one coat or it peels off after a year the first thing they will say is "it is too thin" and maybe give you another can of paint. You are correct in saying that no one can apply a perfectly even, smooth coat of paint. Not even the best painters there are, but why then do so many paint brands lead people to believe that they make a paint that will cover anything in one coat? It's BS and anyone in the paint business knows it. The other issue is that the Behr and Valspar data sheets are very foggy on what is the recommended coverage rate. Again to allow them a way to get out of a warranty. And also, if you use an actual quality paint, you CAN get 350 to 400 square feet per gallon on a well primed surface. If you use a can of junk paint that has a built in drag so the DIY'ers put it on good and thick, such as Marquee or Reserve, you ARE lucky to get 300 square feet per gallon.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm really beginning to wonder if anyone under a certain age even has any idea what a good paint and/or paint finish actually is. Other than what the TV or internet trolls tell them is a good paint. But I would be willing to put my money on a paint company that has been in business since 1849 and has that 166 year reputation than one that started in 1949 making cheap a55 wash stains out of mud and linseed oil to even out the color in low grade redwood.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

klaatu said:


> (W)hy then do so many paint brands lead people to believe that they make a paint that will cover anything in one coat? It's BS and anyone in the paint business knows it.


It is BS, but most people hate painting and that's what they want to hear.



klaatu said:


> And also, if you use an actual quality paint, you CAN get 350 to 400 square feet per gallon on a well primed surface. If you use a can of junk paint that has a built in drag so the DIY'ers put it on good and thick, such as Marquee or Reserve, you ARE lucky to get 300 square feet per gallon.


I haven't tried Marquee or (Valspar?) Reserve. That said, in my limited experience, the preceding is just not true. I've got 400 feet a gallon from Behr Premium Plus Flat, and used about 3.75 gallons from a 5 of Behr Ultra to two-coat ~750 square feet of previously painted, sparsely-patched drywall ((750*2)/3.75) = 400 not two weeks ago. I got about 350 feet a gallon in my daughter's room with Behr Ultra. On the other hand, on similar smooth surfaces, but with _lots _of unsealed joint compound, BM Aura has given me 450 - 475 square feet a gallon. _That_ stuff covers amazingly well. 



> I'm really beginning to wonder if anyone under a certain age even has any idea what a good paint and/or paint finish actually is. Other than what the TV or internet trolls tell them is a good paint.


 Old oil... Sleek, hard, smooth, beautiful - until it starts to crack, anyway, but until then you've got a finish that can look good for decades. Most paint is indifferently applied, and most people don't notice how bad it is. Once you start looking, though, it jumps out at you. Cost drives everything. 

I don't work for Home Depot. I'm not claiming that Behr Premium and Behr Ultra are the best paint you can buy. They're not. They are not without a number of virtues to compensate for their shortcomings, and may be the best paints that someone can buy for *$32 a gallon MSRP*. At least, no one so far has suggested anything that is obviously better.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> They are led to believe they just need one coat on everything.


Well, I kind of get your point, but almost every can of paint I know of recommends two coats.



klaatu said:


> but why then do so many paint brands lead people to believe that they make a paint that will cover anything in one coat?


I'm really not sure what you mean. Marquee is the first paint I'm aware of that ever advertised covering in one coat (for their select color palette). I haven't tried the paint, but I look forward to giving it a try. Aura is the next closest I'm aware of, that advertises "never more than two coats".



klaatu said:


> And also, if you use an actual quality paint, you CAN get 350 to 400 square feet per gallon on a well primed surface. If you use a can of junk paint that has a built in drag so the DIY'ers put it on good and thick, such as Marquee or Reserve, you ARE lucky to get 300 square feet per gallon.


I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. If people put on a thick coat, I think that's pretty good for the final film. There are a couple exceptions to the standard "350-400" sf specification for coverage. Behr Ultra is one of them, and at 250-400 sf is one of the widest.

Maybe what you are saying is that a pudding thick paint is not a good thing, and not a quality thing. You might be right, depends on your point of view I guess.

We've had some of these discussions before. There really is no reason you need two coats or three coats or whatever. All you really need is a final film thickness. If you can get 2 mils in one coat, then that is as good (better actually) than 2 mils from 2 coats of a thinner paint that is only 1 mil per coat.

I agree homeowners (and most pros) have no idea how thick they are putting it on a wall. But what we _can _do is point them to the specs on the can, rather than just repeating by rote "2 coats always", like parrots. We need to further education and awareness, that's why this forum exists.

Look on a can of Aura, for example. A painter might not know what the spread rate of a paint is, but he knows if he's got a bedroom that is 12x10 with 8 foot ceilings, and a door and a window, and he uses up very nearly his entire gallon of paint, he just got 320 sf of coverage. If he has a lot left over, he put it on too thin, and vice versa.

Then just look at the paint specs. One coat of Aura is giving them 2.1 mils (depending on sheen). Cheap paint is giving them about half of that. So literally, 2 coats of a cheap paint equals 1 coat of Aura.

In fact, picking your paint by either
a) the solids content listed, or
b) the final film thickness

is not a bad way at all to pick the best quality paint. Look at any paint company lineup, and you'll see price and quality go right along with it.

Aura eggshell: 47% solids, 2.0 mil film
Super Craft eggshell: 30% solids, 1.1 mil film

Anyone - homeowner or pro - can easily compare numbers like these and figure out which are the crap paints and which are the quality paints.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> But I would be willing to put my money on a paint company that has been in business since 1849 and has that 166 year reputation


Yes, there's nothing really wrong with that, if that's your preference. But I would make 2 comments.

First, saying "Benjamin Moore is great paint" or "Sherwin Williams is better than BM" makes no sense at all. As I showed with the previous spec sheet numbers, BM makes high quality paint, and crappy paint. So does Sherwin Williams. So it does no good for anyone to think in terms of the paint company, only the specific paint. How long they've been in business and their reputation has nothing to do with the fact that they're going to make a paint at each price point, to deliver different quality. Super Craft is crap paint and BM knows it. They just want to offer a low cost paint when it's wanted by their customers. They describe Aura as "extraordinary" quality, and Super Craft as "production" quality, a euphemism for "cheap, watery paint". But that might be what you want for a quick paint-over of same color flat paint in a rental property.

Second, don't underestimate how the world is becoming smaller, and paint technology is moving faster and being shared and understood by many more companies now. The times they are a changin'.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

CyrusR said:


> On the other hand, on similar smooth surfaces, but with _lots _of unsealed joint compound, BM Aura has given me 450 - 475 square feet a gallon. _That_ stuff covers amazingly well.


You are spreading a little thinner than they really want you to, but you can because of its viscosity, and the fact that it has such a high solids content, so even at 450 sf, you still have more actual paint on the wall (and less water) than many lesser paints. 



CyrusR said:


> I'm not claiming that Behr Premium and Behr Ultra are the best paint you can buy. They're not. They are not without a number of virtues to compensate for their shortcomings, and may be the best paints that someone can buy for *$32 a gallon MSRP*. At least, no one so far has suggested anything that is obviously better.


I didn't stop to think about it before, but now that I got involved in this thread, I'm going to tentatively say that Behr Ultra is the best $32 MSRP paint you can buy. Maybe I'll be corrected (although much of it comes down to personal preference at this point). I'm very happy to be - that's why I love this forum!


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> You are spreading a little thinner than they really want you to, but you can because of its viscosity, and the fact that it has such a high solids content, so even at 450 sf, you still have more actual paint on the wall (and less water) than many lesser paints.


 Exactly. I'm not trying to win a spread rate competition - I just paint until the wall is covered. It just takes less to do it with Aura. For $69 a gallon, I suppose it should. _I_ can't make it work brushing on trim, though, no matter how much I thin it.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't do a lot of high end trim jobs, so I end up using a lot of SuperPaint on basic trimwork. I haven't tried Aura, but I would think it would dry too fast. I've used a fair amount of ProClassic waterborne alkyd on trim as well, for the nicer trim jobs. I think you're better off using a wall paint for walls, and a paint that's actually has the qualities you want built in for trim, rather than thinning wall paint, if you really want the best results.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> You are spreading a little thinner than they really want you to, but you can because of its viscosity, and the fact that it has such a high solids content, so even at 450 sf, you still have more actual paint on the wall (and less water) than many lesser paints.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't stop to think about it before, but now that I got involved in this thread, I'm going to tentatively say that Behr Ultra is the best $32 MSRP paint you can buy. Maybe I'll be corrected (although much of it comes down to personal preference at this point). I'm very happy to be - that's why I love this forum!


 P&L Redseal. MSRP $32.99 a gallon for flat. I highly recommend that you try it.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

chrisn said:


> ............:laughing:


 Maybe he is as speechless as I am that someone is still defending Behr?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

I guess you can try to blind me with science (not falling for it BTW, I once ran a paint lab and I know fluff when I read it.) but I still have to deal with continuous complaints from former Behr and Valspar paint users on a pretty much daily basis. So I guess I'll go with them over Behr and Valspar's smoke and mirror marketing campaigns. They can use any excuse they want, but their commercials and in store marketing mis-leads people to believe that these paints do something that they won't. And just because they can hide behind "oh we never said that" doesn't exempt them from the fact that they are leading people to believe something that isn't true. And when was the last time you ever used a wet mil thickness gauge? Do you have any idea how many painters there are that have never even heard of one? How about a fineness of grind gauge? You know, the test that tells you that the particles in 10 different cans of 6 different colors (bases) of 4 different sheens of Marquee have particles that are TWICE AS THICK AS THE RECOMMENDED DRY FILM THICKNESS IS. Or the stain sealing test that shows it takes 7 coats of marquee to seal a coffee stain or a stamp pad ink stain. Why? Because they don't consider coffee or stamp pad ink to be "common" household stains.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

klaatu said:


> P&L Redseal. MSRP $32.99 a gallon for flat. I highly recommend that you try it.


The spec sheets don't bear this out. 
http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=PRATT&doctype=PDS&prodno=Z2090

http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1750_R914.pdf

The P&L has lower solids content (31 vs. 43%), is vinyl acrylic instead of 100% acrylic, doesn't meet MPI #53, let alone the more demanding MPI #138, and costs $1 more a gallon. Behr Ultra Matte does.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

klaatu said:


> I guess you can try to blind me with science (not falling for it BTW, I once ran a paint lab and I know fluff when I read it.) but I still have to deal with continuous complaints from former Behr and Valspar paint users on a pretty much daily basis. So I guess I'll go with them over Behr and Valspar's smoke and mirror marketing campaigns. They can use any excuse they want, but their commercials and in store marketing mis-leads people to believe that these paints do something that they won't. And just because they can hide behind "oh we never said that" doesn't exempt them from the fact that they are leading people to believe something that isn't true. And when was the last time you ever used a wet mil thickness gauge? Do you have any idea how many painters there are that have never even heard of one? How about a fineness of grind gauge? You know, the test that tells you that the particles in 10 different cans of 6 different colors (bases) of 4 different sheens of Marquee have particles that are TWICE AS THICK AS THE RECOMMENDED DRY FILM THICKNESS IS. Or the stain sealing test that shows it takes 7 coats of marquee to seal a coffee stain or a stamp pad ink stain. Why? Because they don't consider coffee or stamp pad ink to be "common" household stains.


Their marketing is deceptive. No question. Does any water-based product seal ink or coffee stains successfully?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

CyrusR said:


> Their marketing is deceptive. No question. Does any water-based product seal ink or coffee stains successfully?


 Nope. So why do they lead people to think it does? Paint AND primer AND sealer all in one!


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

CyrusR said:


> The spec sheets don't bear this out.
> http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=PRATT&doctype=PDS&prodno=Z2090
> 
> http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1750_R914.pdf
> ...


 Again, I'm just going ny what hundreds of customers I have dealt with have been telling me. Not data sheet fluff. The Behr MSDS sheets show lots of fancy chemical names for clay and chalk and all kinds of cheap ass extender pigments they use. And with the large amount of variables in acrylic resin qualities, i would not take the 100% acrylic statement to be a good indicator of the quality of the paint film. Especially when taking the cheap pigments they use as an indicator.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

klaatu said:


> Nope. So why do they lead people to think it does? Paint AND primer AND sealer all in one!


 Because misleading people sells paint (and everything else, for that matter) and there's no law against misleading people as long as you don't cross over to full Joe Isuzu-style whoppers. And now the label fairy has put primer on all of the other manufacturers' cans, too.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

Wow, lot of hot discussions here....I should do wallpaper:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Just kidding...I went to Benjamin Moore store, and I asked for the Ben interior that is priced at $48 
But the guy said he had a cheaper product that is actually better: Ultra Spec 500 for $38
How does that paint compare with the Behr Premium Plus Ultra that is $35?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

french_guy said:


> Wow, lot of hot discussions here....I should do wallpaper:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> Just kidding...I went to Benjamin Moore store, and I asked for the Ben interior that is priced at $48
> But the guy said he had a cheaper product that is actually better: Ultra Spec 500 for $38
> How does that paint compare with the Behr Premium Plus Ultra that is $35?


Much better IMO, Mr Jeff will have a very different opinion, so make your choice. Personally, I would go with the wall paper, it will last till you get tired of looking at it


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

When I was still in France, I put a lot of wallpaper in my house. Almost in every room, except bathroom that was tiled and painted...I was good at it actually
I guess wallpaper is less used in the US...
So you tell me the Ultra Spec 500 is worth the $3 difference?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

I would go with the Ultra Spec. It shares some technology with Aura in that it uses the new Gennex colorants that are more colorfast and longer lasting than traditional pigments. 

I've used quite a bit of Ultra Spec and I like it a lot. It has a few application quirks, but nothing serious. It does dry pretty fast, but not as fast as Aura. So, you do need to be fairly quick with it. Also it settles out quickly, stir it often as you apply. 

I haven't used Behr enough to make a really educated comparison, but from what I have done with it the Ultra Spec is definitely superior. If for no other reason than it doesn't do that crazy run/sag thing that Behr has always done for me. 

I actually won 8 gallons of Ultra Spec exterior in a raffle at the pro show the other day. I haven't tried the exterior yet, looking forward to testing it out.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> I guess you can try to blind me with science (not falling for it BTW, I once ran a paint lab and I know fluff when I read it.)


I'm sorry, what? You're saying that the amount of solids a paint has and its dry film are "fluff"? Sorry, if that's what you think, you simply don't know what you're talking about.



klaatu said:


> And when was the last time you ever used a wet mil thickness gauge? Do you have any idea how many painters there are that have never even heard of one?


So what? It makes no difference, as I already pointed out. You know how many sf of paint you put on the wall with that gallon, and that will tell you.




klaatu said:


> You know, the test that tells you that the particles in 10 different cans of 6 different colors (bases) of 4 different sheens of Marquee have particles that are TWICE AS THICK AS THE RECOMMENDED DRY FILM THICKNESS IS. Or the stain sealing test that shows it takes 7 coats of marquee to seal a coffee stain or a stamp pad ink stain. Why? Because they don't consider coffee or stamp pad ink to be "common" household stains.


I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. Interesting, since you don't like to be "blinded by science". But whatever it is, post it here for all to consider.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> Nope. So why do they lead people to think it does? Paint AND primer AND sealer all in one!


I've never gotten that impression - maybe I just missed it - but it really has nothing to do with how good of a paint it is compared to other paints at the same price point.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Much better IMO, Mr Jeff will have a very different opinion


I might, or might not. I haven't used it, so I don't know.

But the difference between you and me is I post relevant information, and you just state your mostly unfounded opinions. It's easy to tell us it's "much better". Anyone can do that. But few will actually have done unbiased comparisons. You just run around yelling "Behr sucks" and wonder why we don't think you're an authority, based on that.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> I would go with the Ultra Spec. It shares some technology with Aura in that it uses the new Gennex colorants that are more colorfast and longer lasting than traditional pigments.


There's a LOT more to paint chemistry and quality than solids and film thickness. But with few exceptions, you will find the paint that has the higher dry film thickness at the recommended spread rate, will be the higher quality paint. You can follow this through almost every company's lines.

And guess what? Ultra Spec 500 is listed at 1.8, and Behr Ultra is 1.6. Funny how it works out that way so often.

Even though other qualities might be more important to you in terms of quality (like maybe Gennex pigments in this case), in general the paints with more solids are better.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> P&L Redseal. MSRP $32.99 a gallon for flat. I highly recommend that you try it.


I will try it sometime if I can find a dealer nearby.

But to be honest, I think you're going to say ANY paint from a big paint company is better than ANY paint from the big box stores. It's just a bias of yours for which you don't have much or any _objective_ experience.

I also thought you had a problem with paints that "hype" themselves as paint and primer in one?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

The biggest problem with the paint&primer IMO is that people don't look past the big words on the label. In most cases the specs of the product spell out the imitations of the claims made on the front of the label. 

It doesn't seem to me that the claims made in paint marketing are any more egregious than the claims made in any other product marketing. Will your new Corvette go 0-60 in 8 seconds? Sure, with a professional driver on a closed corse. Wil it get 22 miles to the gallon? Yeah, right after a tune up and using premium gas. 

Will X paint cover in one coat? Sure, if it's applied at a consistent 4 (or 6.5 for Behr apparently)mil coat. Can Aura exterior paint qualify for a lifetime material warranty with just one coat? Yes, if it's applied at 6mil to a substrate prepared in a specific manner. 

All marketing is BS to some extent, if you don't read the fine print and curb your expectations your likely to be disappointed with any product marketed on a national scale. 


Just a thought to solids content, more isn't necessarily always better. The quality and composition of the solids are important too.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Just a thought to solids content, more isn't necessarily always better. The quality and composition of the solids are important too.


Of course. And it's not necessarily even the solids that make it better. But what tends to happen is that in their better paints, each company tends to put more solids in them, along with other technological improvements that are a lot harder to detect or quantify than dry film thickness. I think you'll find it's a good gauge of price and quality. It's practially linear, even if it is partly by coincidence.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm familiar with ben, Regal, and Aura, but I'm kind of curious how Ultra Spec 500 fits in. Solid film vs. price:

Super Craft: .9, ??
Super Hide: 1.0, ??
Super Spec: 1.2, ??
ben: 1.2, $38
Ultra Spec 500: 1.8, $38? <--- could be a good deal.....
Regal: 1.4, $48
Aura: 2.0, $70


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> I might, or might not. I haven't used it, so I don't know.
> 
> But the difference between you and me is I post relevant information, and you just state your mostly unfounded opinions. It's easy to tell us it's "much better". Anyone can do that. But few will actually have done unbiased comparisons. You just run around yelling "Behr sucks" and wonder why we don't think you're an authority, based on that.


I state my opinions based on actual real life experiences. I don't claim to be an "authority", like yourself. I only post about what I have found to be true, actually using the products. If you like Behr so much, by all means stick with it. In my real world experience with it, I will not use it. So please just stop stating your biased opinions about my experience, which you don't have a clue about.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

chrisn said:


> So please just stop stating your biased opinions about my experience, which you don't have a clue about.


You're right that I have no clue about your experiences, and neither does anyone else here. That's because you never state them. You just froth at the mouth with your insults, slams, non sequiturs, and irrelevant opinions. You don't give information, context, data, links, or real life experience.

So my opinions are not biased, they're based on the well documented facts I just stated.

If you want to contribute to the forum, then stop answering with emoticons, a bunch of dots, and snarky putdowns, and start posting real experience and real information. If you don't understand science or math, that's fine, but stop making fun of people who do. You can still contribute details of your experience. The problem is your experience is mostly anecdotal, not analytical, and therefore not very helpul even if you did explain it in detail, which you never do.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

chrisn said:


> I state my opinions based on actual real life experiences. I don't claim to be an "authority", like yourself. I only post about what I have found to be true, actually using the products. If you like Behr so much, by all means stick with it. In my real world experience with it, I will not use it. So please just stop stating your biased opinions about my experience, which you don't have a clue about.


 Like I also said, I am relying on 31 years of 1000's of professional painters and 1000's of DIY'ers experiences to form my opinions. And I do field testing on almost every other brand and comparisons between them in as realistic conditions as possible. As well as some limited actual lab testing, such as opacity, drag, fineness of grind (the testing equipment of which costs $750.00 but I found one on E-bay for $50 because someone didn't have any idea what it was.), and brushing and rolling. The most telling of the tests is the visual testing of dried films on opacity charts, where most of the Valspar and Behr products i have done drawdowns of have a grit to their dried finishes. I have them here for your own inspection, as well as wet samples still in the original cans if you prefer to do your own testing. I also am about 45 miles away from SW's main testing facility in Medina, if at any time someone would like to visit them I am told I could arraign it with some lead time. I'm sure they have some pretty interesting interpretations of the drawdowns my P&L rep took to them. I have had customers bring me sample cans of both products for me to do color matches too. Almost every one of these paint samples has the same grit in the film when they dry. I always do a drawdown for the customer of their lovely Behr or Valspar paint out of the goodness of my own heart so they can see the difference between what I sell and what HD and Lowe's sells. It never fails to sell my product to the customers that don't like having that grit in their paint.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> Like I also said, I am relying on 31 years of 1000's of professional painters and 1000's of DIY'ers experiences to form my opinions.


Unlike chrisn, you actually post more information than sarcasm, so that's not the issue.

It sounds like you have some great experience. But on a forum like this, what you actually have to say is more important than your experience. Experience can be faked, but valid information cannot be. I could claim to be a PhD paint chemist, and then say "Sherwin Williams sucks". It's irrelevant without specific info to back it up.

The best analytical website I'm aware of is Jack Pauhl's. I posted a link to one of the articles earlier in the thread. What is your opinion of that?

You're talking about grit. I don't know what you're talking about because I've never noticed any such issue with Behr grit. Maybe if you showed me in person, I would understand. That particular article wasn't focused on all aspects of the paint, only color saturation and hiding. So it wasn't a full paint review. But it was scientific and analytical, and that's what most of the posts around here are lacking in. Jack Pauhl doesn't say "I'm experienced, listen to me, ICI Dulux paint sux." He posts the information.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

In all honesty the op is long gone so i see no reason to continue a discussion that otherwise will never end. good day.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

What are you talking about? This isn't for the OP, it's for all the rest of us. Some of these discussions would be pretty good if you'd stop acting so flaky.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

I haven't noticed grit in Behr, either. I have noticed it in the dried film of ProClassic acrylic semi-gloss. It looks perfectly smooth, but there's a slight tooth to it, like very fine sand paper. First in a quart, then in a gallon bought several weeks later. It's not surface prep, or dust, and I don't feel the same with other paints like Aura, Manor Hall, Behr, etc. 

Klaatu, we're here not just for the OPs, but because we like discussing and learning about paint, and because for every person who actually posts a question here, there are probably 100 others who find answers in these threads from a search engine. If you have data or detailed experiences, share them. I'm interested, in any event. I'm not interested in unsubstantiated opinions such as '*X* blows' because all that tells me is how someone feels.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

klaatu said:


> In all honesty the op is long gone so i see no reason to continue a discussion that otherwise will never end. good day.


I'm sill here....Will have to make a deicsion before the week-end:
Behr (Premium Plus or Premium Plus Ultra) or Benjamin Moore Ultra Spec 500
1 thing I noticed though: I purchased last week a sample of the Behr Ultra, just to test the color. I took it in Satin. But I feel it's too shiny. I know the Ultra Spec doesn't come in satin, but eggshell....Maybe this will help to make the decision !!!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

french_guy said:


> Behr (Premium Plus or Premium Plus Ultra) or Benjamin Moore Ultra Spec 500 1 thing I noticed though: I purchased last week a sample of the Behr Ultra, just to test the color. I took it in Satin. But I feel it's too shiny. I know the Ultra Spec doesn't come in satin, but eggshell....Maybe this will help to make the decision !!!


With good prices on Ultra and Ultra Spec, I think I would avoid the regular Premium Plus. I haven't used Ultra Spec, but based on the spec sheet and jmays recommendation, it sounds good.

Ultra comes in Eggshell as well as Satin, so that should be an option for you. Ultra also comes in Matte, which I personally think is very nice - in between Flat and Eggshell. However Ultra doesn't come in Flat.

If you want Flat, you have to go with Ultra Spec. It also comes in "Low Sheen". Perhaps this is like Matte.

Bottom line: both paints are available in Matte and Eggshell, so pick the one you want.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

SuperPaint interior has that grittiness to it as well, although maybe not as much as the Valspar. It never used to be that way............formulation change I'm sure.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> I'm sill here....Will have to make a deicsion before the week-end:
> Behr (Premium Plus or Premium Plus Ultra) or Benjamin Moore Ultra Spec 500
> 1 thing I noticed though: I purchased last week a sample of the Behr Ultra, just to test the color. I took it in Satin. But I feel it's too shiny. I know the Ultra Spec doesn't come in satin, but eggshell....Maybe this will help to make the decision !!!


 Here's a crazy idea. Why not try them both! Try the Behr on two walls and the Ben Moore on the other two. That way you can see for yourself which you like better. Then you can post which one you prefer. And you get to find out which store can color match the best as well.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> You're right that I have no clue about your experiences, and neither does anyone else here. That's because you never state them. You just froth at the mouth with your insults, slams, non sequiturs, and irrelevant opinions. You don't give information, context, data, links, or real life experience.
> 
> So my opinions are not biased, they're based on the well documented facts I just stated.
> 
> If you want to contribute to the forum, then stop answering with emoticons, a bunch of dots, and snarky putdowns, and start posting real experience and real information. If you don't understand science or math, that's fine, but stop making fun of people who do. You can still contribute details of your experience. The problem is your experience is mostly anecdotal, not analytical, and therefore not very helpul even if you did explain it in detail, which you never do.


 
That is ALL I ever post about, but I will bow down to your vastly superior knowledge of math and science and :surrender: :laughing:


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

klaatu said:


> Here's a crazy idea. Why not try them both! Try the Behr on two walls and the Ben Moore on the other two. That way you can see for yourself which you like better. Then you can post which one you prefer. And you get to find out which store can color match the best as well.


:laughing::thumbsup::thumbup::laughing::thumbsup::thumbup: ...I like that!!!!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> To anyone who wants to actually participate, what are the best <$32 retail paints? And give a reason other than "Behr sucks". Hard data would be nice, as opposed to anecdotes and regurgitating myths.


Actually, my understanding of the reason why "house brand" paints like Home Depot's Behr, Ace Hardware's Beautitone (IIRC), Sears Weatherbeater and Lowe's American Tradition regularily score "Best Buy" ratings from Consumer Reports is because of the way the system works. Lemme explain...

When a hardware store chain decides to sell their own house brand of paint, they'll do surveys to find out what their customers thing "good" paint should cost. Then they'll tender bids to various paint companies to provide a line of latex paints that range in price from A to B depending on what that survey indicated, and of course, the input they get from the paint companies they deal with.

NOW, remember the price of the paint has already been determined by the results of the surveys and whatever other input went into determining the final selling price of the paint. So, when each paint company sharpens up their pencils and figures out what kind of paint they can supply within that price range, the VOLUME DISCOUNT the hardware store chain would normally get ends up going into a better quality paint for that price.

So, instead of the store getting a volume discount on the price, that volume discount ends up going into the paint in the form of a better acrylic resin, or a better additives package, or higher quality pigments in the tinting colourants, or what have you... for that same $25 to $35 per gallon paint.

And, I believe this to be true. I can't say Behr is a great paint. But, if I had only $25 to buy a gallon of latex paint, I'd probably buy Behr. It's the best of the low budget paints IMHO, and I believe that's because the huge volume discount that Home Depot gets goes into providing a better paint for $25 per gallon than anyone else can.

So, if people want a paint recommendation, I've heard a lot of good things about Lowe's American Tradition paint. I've never used it because there are no Lowe's stores in Winnipeg, but if I accept what I've read about it as being true, it sounds like a great paint for a great price.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

No one ever lost anything by being polite, courteous and respectful to everyone they meet.

The best way to deal with difficult people is to remain polite, courteous and respectful. No one is stupid. They will soon realize that your way of dealing with them is a credit to you and that realization will gradually change them as well. They'll start being polite, courteous and respectful, too. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> No one ever lost anything by being polite, courteous and respectful to everyone they meet.
> 
> The best way to deal with difficult people is to remain polite, courteous and respectful. No one is stupid. They will soon realize that your way of dealing with them is a credit to you and that realization will gradually change them as well. They'll start being polite, courteous and respectful, too. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


For the most part , I agree , I am too old and wise to continue debating semantics with the all so wise one , but I highly doubt that will change the thought processes of the paint wizard.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Actually, my understanding of the reason why "house brand" paints like Home Depot's Behr, Ace Hardware's Beautitone (IIRC), Sears Weatherbeater and Lowe's American Tradition regularily score "Best Buy" ratings from Consumer Reports is because of the way the system works. Lemme explain...
> 
> When a hardware store chain decides to sell their own house brand of paint, they'll do surveys to find out what their customers thing "good" paint should cost. Then they'll tender bids to various paint companies to provide a line of latex paints that range in price from A to B depending on what that survey indicated, and of course, the input they get from the paint companies they deal with.
> 
> ...


 I agree with you on everything but one point. Most box store paints are engineered to a price point correct, but they are not manufactured to the best quality that can go into that can at that selling price. They are engineered to provide maximum profit and marketing funds for the manufacturer and the retailer. That means the product in the can is cheapened as much as possible and still match the performance criteria. This may not directly effect the quality of the raw materials, but it can effect the quality control at the plant of the final product. As a former batch plant manager, I know that eliminating a couple of steps in that process can save quite a bit of the labor expense of the cost of that product. For example, relying on a raw material vender to provide products that are always to spec and skipping the quality checks and procedures, such as normal filtration and fineness of grind testing, can save quite a bit of the production costs. That is my point about Behr. I have seen quite a range of product qualities within the specific ranges of paint that they manufacture. This goes back 25 years to listening to painters who were in business within just a couple miles of the Behr plant. They wouldn't touch it because they found there was such a variation in quality from one batch to another.Unfortunately from my testing of the Marquee and Premium Plus Ultra, this issue has not been addressed.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

chrisn said:


> For the most part , I agree , I am too old and wise to continue debating semantics with the all so wise one , but I highly doubt that will change the thought processes of the paint wizard.


 Seems like the word Behr triggers a highly emotional response from some people, good or bad.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> Seems like the word Behr triggers a highly emotional response from some people, good or bad.


chris, most of all.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> I agree with you on everything but one point. Most box store paints are engineered to a price point correct, but they are not manufactured to the best quality that can go into that can at that selling price. They are engineered to provide maximum profit and marketing funds for the manufacturer and the retailer. That means the product in the can is cheapened as much as possible and still match the performance criteria. This may not directly effect the quality of the raw materials, but it can effect the quality control at the plant of the final product.


I'm sure you see the inherent flaw in your reasoning. Bad quality control _does _hurt their profit margin. Therefore, to introduce such issues loses business and loses money.

I'm not talking right now about whether Behr is good or bad, or has quality control issues or doesn't. I'm saying if their product is bad or perceived as bad, it will cost them money.

By the way, _all _products are cheapened as much as possible while still matching the performance criteria. This is essentially a business tautology. Once the product achieves what they want it to, adding additional expense would just be wasteful.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

chrisn said:


> That is ALL I ever post about


Again...

The problem is your experience is mostly anecdotal, not analytical, and therefore not very helpul even if you did explain it in detail, which you never do.


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## mcosilg (Apr 30, 2015)

*Canadian Paints*

Anyone based in Canada that has an opinion on what the best paints are?


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## mcosilg (Apr 30, 2015)

I with a group that is trying to recommend some improvements in quality and make brand recommendations for Canadian paint manufacturers.


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## mcosilg (Apr 30, 2015)

If anyone has a few minutes, help with this survey would be awesome: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/XRD3LWT


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

CyrusR said:


> The spec sheets don't bear this out.
> http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=PRATT&doctype=PDS&prodno=Z2090
> 
> http://www.behr.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1750_R914.pdf
> ...


 Hey guess what I just read! You say you use mostly SW right? Do you happen to use much Superpaint? Just wondering because it is a vinyl acrylic also.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

klaatu said:


> Hey guess what I just read! You say you use mostly SW right? Do you happen to use much Superpaint? Just wondering because it is a vinyl acrylic also.


You've confused me with jeffnc, I think.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

CyrusR said:


> You've confused me with jeffnc, I think.


 hey I did didn't I. My bad.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

I ended up buying the Ultra Spec 500. My room is ~ 450 s ft, with 2 windows and 2 doors. So surface to paint is approx 360 sq ft. 
It says 1 gal will cover between 350 and 400 sq ft. I purchased 2 gallons since I was planning to put 2 coats
But so far, I only used 1 gal for 2 coats....!!! Does that mean the Ultra Spec 500 coverage is excellent? My 1st coat was maybe too "light", but the 2nd one was normal. How is that possible....?
Now, I have 1 unused gal of paint. I could put a 3rd coat (and consider the 1st one as a primer) or talk to the store and ask why it say 350/400 sq ft per gal when it seems to be obviously much more...


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

french_guy said:


> I ended up buying the Ultra Spec 500. My room is ~ 450 s ft, with 2 windows and 2 doors. So surface to paint is approx 360 sq ft.
> It says 1 gal will cover between 350 and 400 sq ft. I purchased 2 gallons since I was planning to put 2 coats
> But so far, I only used 1 gal for 2 coats....!!! Does that mean the Ultra Spec 500 coverage is excellent? My 1st coat was maybe too "light", but the 2nd one was normal. How is that possible....?
> Now, I have 1 unused gal of paint. I could put a 3rd coat (and consider the 1st one as a primer) or talk to the store and ask why it say 350/400 sq ft per gal when it seems to be obviously much more...


 When I was selling BM I always got comments about much further a gallon would go as opposed to other paints. That being said, I will tell you the same thing I told them. The coverage on the can is for the paint being applied at the correct thickness, and not how far you can "spread" the paint when you apply it. You spread it a little thin. But it shouldn't be a problem since you used two coats. Ideally, you should go ahead and put a third coat on since you already have the paint, and that will give you the durability and longevity that that paint should provide. Also, what thickness of roller cover did you use? 3/8" should be a minimum to get proper thickness, but a lot of painters will go with a 1/2" to get more paint on. I assume that the paint you used was tinted with BM Gennex colorants, which are of a much higher solids level and overall quality than most of the colorants generally used today. Those colorants are a big part of why the paint can be spread so thin and still provide great coverage. And don't get down on yourself for spreading it a little thin. There isn't really a good way for most people to know how thick you are applying it. Some paint and primer products I have a hard time getting the correct thickness (mils) even in my store using a wet mil thickness gauge, so expecting a DIY'er to be able to do it is a stretch. But again, that's how some paint manufacturers dodge their warranties.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

klaatu said:


> When I was selling BM I always got comments about much further a gallon would go as opposed to other paints. That being said, I will tell you the same thing I told them. The coverage on the can is for the paint being applied at the correct thickness, and not how far you can "spread" the paint when you apply it. You spread it a little thin. But it shouldn't be a problem since you used two coats. Ideally, you should go ahead and put a third coat on since you already have the paint, and that will give you the durability and longevity that that paint should provide. Also, what thickness of roller cover did you use? 3/8" should be a minimum to get proper thickness, but a lot of painters will go with a 1/2" to get more paint on. I assume that the paint you used was tinted with BM Gennex colorants, which are of a much higher solids level and overall quality than most of the colorants generally used today. Those colorants are a big part of why the paint can be spread so thin and still provide great coverage. And don't get down on yourself for spreading it a little thin. There isn't really a good way for most people to know how thick you are applying it. Some paint and primer products I have a hard time getting the correct thickness (mils) even in my store using a wet mil thickness gauge, so expecting a DIY'er to be able to do it is a stretch. But again, that's how some paint manufacturers dodge their warranties.


I don’t think I applied the 2nd coat in a “how far I can spread” way…..
I used a standard size roller – 9” – and 3/8 nap
I was painting with the roller on a pole, in vertical strips from ceiling to floor, no more than 2.5 roller width wide (3 at most), and making sure to go back on the wet edge of the previous area
And I still have some paint left in the can (something like ¾ to 1”)
If I were to put that 3rd coat, are you recommending to use a ½” nap?
By the way, I have 2 or 3 spots that were patched and depending on the light and the angle I look at the wall, I can see a difference in texture
Will a ½” nap help hiding better those patches?
Thanks


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

french_guy said:


> I ended up buying the Ultra Spec 500. My room is ~ 450 s ft, with 2 windows and 2 doors. So surface to paint is approx 360 sq ft.
> It says 1 gal will cover between 350 and 400 sq ft. I purchased 2 gallons since I was planning to put 2 coats
> But so far, I only used 1 gal for 2 coats....!!! Does that mean the Ultra Spec 500 coverage is excellent? My 1st coat was maybe too "light", but the 2nd one was normal. How is that possible....?
> Now, I have 1 unused gal of paint. I could put a 3rd coat (and consider the 1st one as a primer) or talk to the store and ask why it say 350/400 sq ft per gal when it seems to be obviously much more...



Honestly, it just means that your "normal" coat is still thin compared to the coating thickness assumed for the footage specified. Nothing really "wrong" with this, and it's not uncommon. It does say something about the quality of the paint that you were able to get an attractive looking film applying at that footage. 



Your average interior latex paint is made to go on at a wet film thickness (WFT) of around 4mil (.004 inches). The average person rolling out paint is lucky to get more than 2mil on the wall even if they think they're putting it on heavy. It's a tendency to want to "smooth the paint out" on the wall that causes this primarily I think. One coat coverage paint is largely a myth because it is so rare for a given persons application technique to actually produce a thick enough paint film to actually qualify as a "coat" by the manufactures definition. 

When paint companies make samples to test they don't use a brush or a roller. They use a draw down bar set to spread the paint perfectly even at the exact thickness they want. Performance claims, footage numbers, and all the other stated properties of any given paint are based on these samples. It's no wonder real world application results often differ so wildly from manufactures claims. We don't paint walls with drawdown bars.

To give you an idea of what it takes to get a 4mil coat on a wall, picture having a fully loaded dripping wet 1/2 roller nap and an 8' wall. If you take the roller and roll up and down one width of the roller (9") that might get you close to 4mil. It almost doesn't even seem practical to apply that much paint. How would you even smooth it out? What about runs and sags? Etc.. It can be done, but the average application technique doesn't even come close. 


For the average home owner this isn't terribly important. It's enough to say that this paint covered good and went far or this other paint didn't. When you get into industrial applications or things like epoxy floors, specific mil thickness is much more important.

Measuring mil thickness is easily done with gauged cards that are pressed into the wet film. The WFT gauges have little teeth than correspond to thickness. You can either look at the teeth and see which one has paint on it, or look at the indentions made in the wet film to measure how thick the paint is. 

Here's a 4mil (just barely) wet coat of primer on a cabinet door


















Specific coating thickness is a special fascination of mine, can you tell

The humps and valleys of roller application and the general unevenness of Sheetrock make taking this measurement a bit less precise on rolled walls, but it can still be done. Try to find flat areas on the wall and take multiple readings to get an idea of how thickly you're applying.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

klaatu said:


> When I was selling BM I always got comments about much further a gallon would go as opposed to other paints. That being said, I will tell you the same thing I told them. The coverage on the can is for the paint being applied at the correct thickness, and not how far you can "spread" the paint when you apply it. You spread it a little thin. But it shouldn't be a problem since you used two coats. Ideally, you should go ahead and put a third coat on since you already have the paint, and that will give you the durability and longevity that that paint should provide. Also, what thickness of roller cover did you use? 3/8" should be a minimum to get proper thickness, but a lot of painters will go with a 1/2" to get more paint on. I assume that the paint you used was tinted with BM Gennex colorants, which are of a much higher solids level and overall quality than most of the colorants generally used today. Those colorants are a big part of why the paint can be spread so thin and still provide great coverage. And don't get down on yourself for spreading it a little thin. There isn't really a good way for most people to know how thick you are applying it. Some paint and primer products I have a hard time getting the correct thickness (mils) even in my store using a wet mil thickness gauge, so expecting a DIY'er to be able to do it is a stretch. But again, that's how some paint manufacturers dodge their warranties.




It does seem that the mid-higher lines of BM paint can get better footage than other brands. In fact, most BM wall paints are specced to go on at only 3.8 mil instead of 4 for most other and up to 6+ for some Behr products. A 0.2 mil difference is splitting hairs, but it does show that BM is a little closer to reality in they're thickness requirements and that the paint can perform well with a slightly thinner film. 

Your right, it's not reasonable to expect a DIY'er to take painting that far. The best advice I know to give is be generous with the paint. Put as much on as you can and still spread it out reasonably well. 

One of the reasons pros like Aura paint so well is that it can be spread way past its footage recommendations and still produce a beautiful film. Ultra Spec shares the Gennex system as you mentioned so it's similar in that regard.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

Since I already have that 2nd gallon (and I doubt the store will take it back), do you recommend a 3rd coat, trying to be "generous" when I spread it?
Should I keep the same roller or go with a 1/2" nap?
But I don't want to make a mess though, with streaks or overlaping marks...


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yes, as klaatu suggested another coat will give you more durability and wash ability. You might experiment with putting a little more on but don't exceed your comfort zone. Maybe try for two roller widths per dip and adjust form there. 

As far a 1/2 nap hiding the patches better, at this point it likely won't make much difference. Sanding the areas around the patches some could help. It's likely they stand out because they're smoother than the surrounding wall.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

french_guy said:


> I don’t think I applied the 2nd coat in a “how far I can spread” way…..
> I used a standard size roller – 9” – and 3/8 nap
> I was painting with the roller on a pole, in vertical strips from ceiling to floor, no more than 2.5 roller width wide (3 at most), and making sure to go back on the wet edge of the previous area
> And I still have some paint left in the can (something like ¾ to 1”)
> ...


You simply put the paint on too thin. That's OK. As klaatu said, you put on 2 coats.

Which raises a very interesting point. If you ask painters around here how many coats to put on, everyone will shout in unison "Two Coats Always!"

Well, now you know that's not true. It's not important how many coats you put on, all that matters is how much actual paint is on your wall. So here you have a situation where you only put on as much paint as the manufacturer tells you will cover 1 coat, but you put it on in 2 steps, and now you're being told that thickness is OK. Doesn't make sense, does it?

You could have put that thickness on in one coat, and saved yourself a whole lot of time. This is what I do in some situations where I have reason believe ahead of time it will work, and it will be sufficient. (That varies depending on the paint, the color differences involved, the sheen, and quality level of the job required.)

For comparison, when I use a 3/8" nap, I only get 1 roller width per load on the wall, as compared to your 2.5 to 3.

There is no reason to switch to a heavier nap. You simply need to put it on thicker with the roller you have. Effectively, you only have 1 coat of paint on your wall, despite your double effort  If it looks good to you, just leave it. Save the paint for a future paint-over if the walls get dinged up or patched.

Yes, a 1/2" nap will help hide inconsistencies in the wall surface, but will add more texture of its own. Some people don't like this, especially in a non-flat paint. Also, the film is less smooth with a 1/2" nap, so you're getting inconsistent film thickness as well. In one spot, it might be 8 mils, and the spot 1/8" away might be 2 mils. You can't really get it smooth.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> In fact, most BM wall paints are specced to go on at only 3.8 mil instead of 4 for most other and up to 6+ for some Behr products.


As far as I can tell, Behr no longer puts this information on their spec sheets. But on the old sheets I have saved, they're the only one that gives a high range of spreadability - 250-400 sf. And the resultant claimed dry film matches. Of course when comparing, I use the apples-to-apples number - the film thickness of the 400 sf number. But I really can't imagine putting it on to cover 250 sf without getting runs and sags.



Jmayspaint said:


> One of the reasons pros like Aura paint so well is that it can be spread way past its footage recommendations and still produce a beautiful film. Ultra Spec shares the Gennex system as you mentioned so it's similar in that regard.


I don't think I understand this comment by you and klaatu. You're talking about the tint added to the can for color, right? So it doesn't make any sense. Some colors are pretty much whatever the can base is, and others might take 4 ounces of tint. That would create a completely inconsistent situation with regard to the benefits of Gennex.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> There isn't really a good way for most people to know how thick you are applying it.


Maybe not during a particular roller width application. Certainly not with the precision of a guage.

But after almost 200 sf, you should have the impression you've used about 1/2 of the can. Or at the very least, once you paint a room one time, you know how many sf you got from the gallon. The second time you paint a room, you should know if you should be putting it on just a bit thicker, just a bit thinner, or twice as thick.

I think the basic advice of a 3/8" roller full doing only 1 row on a wall will get them pretty close.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> Honestly, it just means that your "normal" coat is still thin compared to the coating thickness assumed for the footage specified. Nothing really "wrong" with this, and it's not uncommon. It does say something about the quality of the paint that you were able to get an attractive looking film applying at that footage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I wish these wet mil gauges were used a little more often. They are quite simple to use, I just wish more of them were made available to DIY'ers.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yes, as klaatu suggested another coat will give you more durability and wash ability. You might experiment with putting a little more on but don't exceed your comfort zone. Maybe try for two roller widths per dip and adjust form there.
> 
> As far a 1/2 nap hiding the patches better, at this point it likely won't make much difference. Sanding the areas around the patches some could help. It's likely they stand out because they're smoother than the surrounding wall.


 At this point a 3/8" nap would be fine. After those first two coats it will probably be a little easier to get a good smooth finish with it than using a 1/2".


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> As far as I can tell, Behr no longer puts this information on their spec sheets. But on the old sheets I have saved, they're the only one that gives a high range of spreadability - 250-400 sf. And the resultant claimed dry film matches. Of course when comparing, I use the apples-to-apples number - the film thickness of the 400 sf number. But I really can't imagine putting it on to cover 250 sf without getting runs and sags.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I understand this comment by you and klaatu. You're talking about the tint added to the can for color, right? So it doesn't make any sense. Some colors are pretty much whatever the can base is, and others might take 4 ounces of tint. That would create a completely inconsistent situation with regard to the benefits of Gennex.


 The factory pigments/tints in the white bases are of the gennex variety also, but probably a more concentrated or powdered form.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Also, most painters have learned that it is easier and faster to put on two good coats than to try to be absolutely perfect putting one coat on. Most DIY'ers try to do just one thicker coat and they almost always miss some spots (sometimes called holidays). That's why it is actually better and easier to do to coats. Most paint marketing is unfortunately geared toward the "instant gratification" desire to be able to get a paint job done in one coat, but it typically isn't the best thing to do.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> Also, most painters have learned that it is easier and faster to put on two good coats than to try to be absolutely perfect putting one coat on. Most DIY'ers try to do just one thicker coat and they almost always miss some spots (sometimes called holidays). That's why it is actually better and easier to do to coats.


One thing about the OP - if he's putting it on at 800 sf/gallon, then he must be pressing the roller pretty hard on the wall, which is a good thing.

I agree that it's easier to put on 2 coats, in the sense that you don't have to be perfect. I don't agree that it's faster. It's often not possible to get one coat coverage, but if you can do it, it doesn't take double the time to do one coat compared to two.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> The factory pigments/tints in the white bases are of the gennex variety also, but probably a more concentrated or powdered form.


Are you saying they don't use TiO2? Or just that it's the mix of various tinting ingredients and solids in addition to TiO2, as Nestor mentioned, that they use?


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> As far as I can tell, Behr no longer puts this information on their spec sheets. But on the old sheets I have saved, they're the only one that gives a high range of spreadability - 250-400 sf. And the resultant claimed dry film matches. Of course when comparing, I use the apples-to-apples number - the film thickness of the 400 sf number. But I really can't imagine putting it on to cover 250 sf without getting runs and sags.


Behr has DIY spec sheets that don't include that information, and pro spec sheets that do. 

Here're the pro sheets: 

http://www.behr.com/pro/products/safety-msds


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

CyrusR said:


> Behr has DIY spec sheets that don't include that information, and pro spec sheets that do.
> 
> Here're the pro sheets:
> 
> http://www.behr.com/pro/products/safety-msds


Ah! Interesting. Thank you.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

You're welcome. If you type behrpro.com into your browser, it redirects you to www.behr.com/pro. Behrpro.com is a little easier to remember.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Good to know. As I was reading your first post, I was wondering how I was going to remember that  For some reason, Google didn't seem to find that page as I was looking for the specs.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Are you saying they don't use TiO2? Or just that it's the mix of various tinting ingredients and solids in addition to TiO2, as Nestor mentioned, that they use?


 Pigments are typically mixed into a "slurry" of various components before it is added to the resin mixture, and there are various components to this slurry. So in effect, they would use materials in this slurry that would be similar in content to the gennex colorants, but in a more generic (cheaper) form. It's much easier to do it this way than to try to mix a powder into the liquid resin. Kind of like in baking, if you put too much of a powdered ingredient into a liquid mixture, it is much harder to disperse the powder than if you put it in a little at a time. In production, it's easier to pre-make a slurry than to slowly add the powder to the liquid. It isn't always done this way, because there are a lot of variables, but this is typically what is done.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I was wondering about the ingredients of Gennex specifically, more so than the production technique.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> I was wondering about the ingredients of Gennex specifically, more so than the production technique.


 That my friend would fall under the "proprietary solids" or "proprietary resins" description on the MSDS. God knows what it is. Could be cow snot!


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

klaatu said:


> That my friend would fall under the "proprietary solids" or "proprietary resins" description on the MSDS. God knows what it is. Could be cow snot!


 Actually the MSDS just shows the basic pigment solids in it and makes no mention at all of any liquids or resins in it. Pretty much just what the EPA makes them list. No sense helping SW and PPG back-engineer it.


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## french_guy (Sep 11, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> One thing about the OP - if he's putting it on at 800 sf/gallon, then he must be pressing the roller pretty hard on the wall, which is a good thing.
> 
> I agree that it's easier to put on 2 coats, in the sense that you don't have to be perfect. I don't agree that it's faster. It's often not possible to get one coat coverage, but if you can do it, it doesn't take double the time to do one coat compared to two.


I don't think I was pressing the roller pretty hard.....
I will put my 3rd coat tomorrow morning, since I have the paint
I was maybe back rolling too much (I wanted to make sure i won't have overlap marks)


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

One of the easier ways to avoid lap marks is to put more paint on the wall  If you roll it too thin, it starts to dry or skin over. Then if you overwork the paint, it can start looking funky. A thicker coat allows you a little more working time, and the rows have a better wet edge to blend into the next one.


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