# Primer Experiment: Zinsser Gardz vs 123 vs PVA Primer



## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

I'm doing en experiment to test these 3 Zinsser primers and I'm looking for test suggestions.

I got a piece of drywall and spread a stripe of joint compound along its length to simulate a new wall.
Then I divided it into 6 Sections: 1 and 2 coats of each Zinsser Gardz, 123, and PVA drywall primer. See Picture.

Next I will apply 2 coats of Sherwin williams Cashmere Low Luster paint in light gray.

The question is, what is the best way to test this when done?

I can hold it up to light to check flashing
How should i test durability/adhesion? I figure I can apply different types of tape and pull it off.
Let me know what you think I should do and I'll report back with the results.


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## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

I just painted the board and 5 minutes later I made some observations:

The PVA (both 1 and 2 coat sections) appears significantly more dry than any of the other sections. This suggests the PVA does the worst job sealing and paint is getting absorbed.

The 2 coats of Gardz appears the most wet, suggesting it seals the best.

The 1 Coat of Gardz as well as both 123 sections are intermediate and are too close to rank.

Tomorrow I will photograph with 1 coat in the light, then put on a 2nd coat.

Who knew watching paint dry could be so exciting!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

how do you expect to get 'flashing' on a 1x2 section of drywall?


PVA is well known to be crap. Not sure why bother to test a product thats not even worth the can they put it in.


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## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> how do you expect to get 'flashing' on a 1x2 section of drywall?
> 
> 
> PVA is well known to be crap. Not sure why bother to test a product thats not even worth the can they put it in.


1) A larger sheet would be better, however each small section is half drywall paper and half joint compound so I'll be looking to see if there is a sheen difference at the transition. The test is also about adhesion/durability which I should have plenty of space to test. It's admittedly far from a perfect test but should still provide some good information.

2) It seems like the of all the professional opinions I've heard, half say its crap and the other half say for new drywall its just as good and there's no need to spend more. I even called Zinnser and they said their PVA would be just as good as their own more expensive options. Its not as settled a debate as you seem to imply.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

riccobo4 said:


> 2) It seems like the of all the professional opinions I've heard, half say its crap and the other half say for new drywall its just as good and there's no need to spend more. I even called Zinnser and they said their PVA would be just as good as their own more expensive options. Its not as settled a debate as you seem to imply.



The number of times PVA has caused an issue for my customers would say otherwise. Plenty of examples on DIY and PT as well.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

PVA primers are the bottom of the barrel, given a choice I won't use them. Any finish paint will preform better with a better grade of primer under it.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> how do you expect to get 'flashing' on a 1x2 section of drywall?
> 
> 
> PVA is well known to be crap. Not sure why bother to test a product thats not even worth the can they put it in.





Why are you even here? Just to throw in your cynical, negative, overbearing opinions over and over and over?

This is the best post in this forum in the past year. He's doing something you've never done here.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Good work riccobo, keep us posted. Ignore anyone too lazy to do any research themselves.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Standard tape test after 24 hours and again after 7 days would be good, IMO.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> Why are you even here? Just to throw in your cynical, negative, overbearing opinions over and over and over?
> 
> This is the best post in this forum in the past year. He's doing something you've never done here.



Why would I bother to make samples of PVA? The only reason to use is it that its dirt cheap bottom tier stuff. Essentially its thinned white glue with some filler pigment. I've tested many drywall primers, spraying and brush/roll and PVA products ain't even worth the bucket the come in. I'm not going to write an entire book for information that has been rehashed 1000x on other forums like PT, but for various reasons generally vinyl acrylics and in particular PPG 6-2 and superspec 253 are the best primers I have used.



Regarding 1x2 samples boards: too small of a sample and not vertical surface, I would want to do at least an entire room with gardz make a judgement. Seems useful for large areas like ceilings.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I've tested many drywall primers



Then post the results rather than just shouting the first knee-jerk response that comes to your head. Hint "this one is good, this one is crap" is not very useful information, it's just noise pollution.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> Then post the results rather than just shouting the first knee-jerk response that comes to your head. Hint "this one is good, this one is crap" is not very useful information, it's just noise pollution.



You wouldn't trust me anyway. Go spray some 123 or any other 100% acrylic then spray some PPG 6-2. One has good sheen hold out and doesn't sting your eye balls.


I have only used small amounts of gardz so I would be interested in how it sprays and how fast the odor dissipates.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Some post were removed.

A friendly reminder...



> 2. Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on DIY Chatroom.com. Ideas and opinions may be challenged, but name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned. Harassment will not be tolerated in this community. This includes private messages, Avatars, Facebook and/or social media and user emails.


https://www.diychatroom.com/f4/prim...s-pva-primer-678513/f114/diy...-rules-281002/


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## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

jeffnc said:


> Standard tape test after 24 hours and again after 7 days would be good, IMO.


When you say standard tape test, Are you referring to the test I just now googled involving cutting an X then pressing on and pulling off masking tape?

I was originally planning to just stick different tapes on the paint (no cuts) and removing them. (yellow frogtape, green frog tape, 3m command strips, duct tape etc). I was also thinking of gluing something on permanent and ripping it off just to see where the failure point is.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Actually I wasn't aware of Xs, I was just talking about pressing it on and pulling it off. But if you've found a better test, go for it.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

riccobo4 said:


> When you say standard tape test, Are you referring to the test I just now googled involving cutting an X then pressing on and pulling off masking tape?
> 
> I was originally planning to just stick different tapes on the paint (no cuts) and removing them. (yellow frogtape, green frog tape, 3m command strips, duct tape etc). I was also thinking of gluing something on permanent and ripping it off just to see where the failure point is.



http://www.galvanizeit.com/uploads/resources/ASTM-D-3359-yr-2010.pdf


There are certain approved tapes but regular scotch 3850 packing tape works.


Test method B (cross lattice cut) is more suitable for your test application.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

That document is for metal substrates, but the test is used for other substrates as well. The problem with that method over a substrate like drywall is that you can't avoid cutting through either the paper, or the primer, or the joint compound, and doing any of those can invalidate the results (can't happen over metal). So, I was talking about simply putting masking tape on firmly and pulling it off.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> That document is for metal substrates, but the test is used for other substrates as well. The problem with that method over a substrate like drywall is that you can't avoid cutting through either the paper, or the primer, or the joint compound, and doing any of those can invalidate the results (can't happen over metal). So, I was talking about simply putting masking tape on firmly and pulling it off.



Yes that is an issue however I'm unaware of any other standardized testing other than just using some 2060 tape. I would be surprised to see any adhesion issues to mud though. Only issue I ever heard of was a thread on PT and I think the consensus was it was due to an incompatibility with dust control mud.
https://www.painttalk.com/f2/gardz-problems-adhering-drywall-mud-82049/


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Well that was an interesting thread. It's hard to believe Dust Control compound has any wax in it, because that's an obvious no-no to paint over. But for whatever reason, I don't rely on it anyway so I will avoid it for now.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> Well that was an interesting thread. It's hard to believe Dust Control compound has any wax in it, because that's an obvious no-no to paint over. But for whatever reason, I don't rely on it anyway so I will avoid it for now.


https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170233293A1/en


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Wow. Well it sounds like a really bad idea to me.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> Wow. Well it sounds like a really bad idea to me.



unfortunately that's never stopped a company from making a product. deckover is a common example


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I know Thompsons Water Seal has, or had, wax, but nothing is supposed to adhere to that, and it is water repellent. Neither of those apply to drywall prep.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

jeffnc said:


> I know Thompsons Water Seal has, or had, wax, but nothing is supposed to adhere to that, and it is water repellent. Neither of those apply to drywall prep.



off topic but TWS and many other 'water proofing' products are usually a siloxane (silicone) wax products. They really only last about 6 months then need reapplication and you can't top coat them with anything else. Very difficult to remove from wood, full strength sodium hydroxide strippers with 2-3 applications is best best and even then... avoid silicone at all cost. Most if not all oil based exterior stains also contain a bit of parrafin wax, manufacturers add this so that customers see the stain 'beading' water, of course that weathers away fairly quickly too.

Dalys shipnshore is the best single componet waterproofer I know of. No silicones or waxes, hardens wood ~30%, can be top coated with anything or used as a 1 or 2 coat finish on its own. Can be used on steel and masonry as well.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I have only used small amounts of gardz so I would be interested in how it sprays and how fast the odor dissipates.



Gardz can be a little tricky to spray because it's easy to apply it too heavy and get runs. It's best to spray a light coat, let it tack up and spray another light coat.


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## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

jeffnc said:


> That document is for metal substrates, but the test is used for other substrates as well. The problem with that method over a substrate like drywall is that you can't avoid cutting through either the paper, or the primer, or the joint compound, and doing any of those can invalidate the results (can't happen over metal). So, I was talking about simply putting masking tape on firmly and pulling it off.


Yes I think yours is the route I will take. I have yellow frog tape, Standard blue roll 3m painters tape, packing tape, 3m command strips, and duct tape. I can also pull it off at different speeds. It wont be any official standardized test but it will work for comparing these 3 relative to each other.

I'll be doing the 24hr dry time test tonight


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

My problem with this test is that its on a plain sheetrock board and not on a mudded or textured surface. I too, want to do a test like this, but, like I said, on a mudded/textured surface. I also want to do one using flat paint, with no primer at all for comparison. I think flat paint has better adhesion than using a dedicated primer, but I'd like to see an actual test. Back when I did tracts, and we didnt use primer at all, we never had problems with tape pulling paint up. Ever since I started using primers, paint pulls up with tape a lot easier.

Edit: I just reread that you did mud part of your test board. Thats the only part Im interested.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Jan 12, 2018)

woodco said:


> My problem with this test is that its on a plain sheetrock board and not on a mudded or textured surface. I too, want to do a test like this, but, like I said, on a mudded/textured surface. I also want to do one using flat paint, with no primer at all for comparison. I think flat paint has better adhesion than using a dedicated primer, but I'd like to see an actual test. Back when I did tracts, and we didnt use primer at all, we never had problems with tape pulling paint up. Ever since I started using primers, paint pulls up with tape a lot easier.
> 
> Edit: I just reread that you did mud part of your test board. Thats the only part Im interested.



many drywall primers are just flat paints, as in they are just a relabeled flat vinyl acrylic.


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## riccobo4 (Dec 29, 2017)

OP here with some results

The day after the 1st coat of paint I tried to look for flashing. Turns out the board is indeed too small to make any accurate assessment of flashing.

One observation I made is that the thicker 123 did a better job of hiding the texture variations of the drywall. With the gardz and pva it was easier to see where the slightly textured drywall paper transitioned to the smoother mud. On a level 5 finish this might not matter but for most jobs it may.

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On the 2nd coat of paint, the PVA primer once again absorbed the paint and dried the fastest. All of the others dried at a very similar, slower rate. The 2 coats of gardz did not have the clear advantage it had on the 1st coat.

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24 hours after the 1st coat I did some tape tests. I couldn't get a single tape to make a mark. Even the gorilla tape did nothing, although with the slightly glossy paint and the cool temperature I was working in (about 55 degrees) it did not seem to adhere as well as it could.

I glued on some hooks and ripped them off to see where the failure point would be (this was over the mudded section). Every one seperated at the drywall paper. Every one looked almost identical to the picture below. I wondered if the guardz might penetrate deeper and strengthen the paper but if it did it was negligible.

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Conclusions
1) PVA sealed the worst. Even the 2nd coat of paint over 2 coats of PVA absorbed in and dried fast.

2) Gardz sealed best - better than 123, but by the 2nd coat of paint the difference was negligible

3) 123 had a slight advantage in hiding texture variations and light sanding scratches. 

4) Adhesion was as good as possible for all 3. The drywall paper failed before anything else.

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As a final reminder this was a single test with one brand and a lot of uncontrolled variables. Take it as a data point, not gospel.


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