# 3 way switches. help me before i go insane



## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

Can you post a pic of your current wiring (since it is now a _"total mess")_?


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

Pedro, 1st, there is no "on" and "off" for a 3-way switch.


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## Saturday Cowboy (Nov 29, 2009)

you have a traveler and the switch leg crossed.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

Cowboy is right. Set it up exactly like the diagram and you'll be good.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The diagram will work, but technically shows a code violation of 200.7. The white can only be used as the feed to the switch.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Your switches may have the terminals physically arranged differently. The common terminal is usually stained a darker color or has "C" engraved near it. If not you will need to look at the switch instructions, or use an ohmmeter (or continuity meter).

Or maybe you have a defective switch.


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## vote4Pedro (Jul 23, 2010)

Saturday Cowboy said:


> you have a traveler and the switch leg crossed.





SD515 said:


> Cowboy is right. Set it up exactly like the diagram and you'll be good.



can you be a little more clear which one is the traveler and which is the switch leg on the diagram listed above? thanks

also what do you mean by "The white can only be used as the feed to the switch"??

tx


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

If you look at the drawing you will see one of the screws on each switch is black. That screw is the common screw. It is important that the black wire be on that screw for this diagram to work. You need to look at your switches to identify the common terminal. It may not be physically in the same position.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Jim Port said:


> The diagram will work, but technically shows a code violation of 200.7. The white can only be used as the feed to the switch.


I don't think it is a violation. The fixture has black and white wires connected to it. That code is made so that you don't have two white wires at the fixture.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

At sw#1, the 2 black wires connected are the hot wires.
This feeds to sw#2, and connects to the common screw.

The white and red of sw#2 are the travelers, and connect to the other screws.

At sw#1 the black wire going to the light fixture is wires to the common screw to feed the light.
The red and white are considered the travallers and connect to the remaining screws.

The white wire from the breaker connects to the white wire going to the light.

Your colors may vary.

The common screw is a darker color, or marked with a C.

Older switches are harder to tell.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

This help?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Here is the section related to my post re white needing to feed switch.

*(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.​*​​​​The use of insulation
that is white or gray or that has three continuous white
stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of
50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through
(3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is
permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor, by painting or other effective
means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall
encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than
white, gray, or green. *[ROP 5–26]*​*
*(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes* is used for the*
*supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from*
*the switch to the switched outlet*. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidenti​​​​fied
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location​
where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Note that this section will not be needed since the 2011 will require a neutral at the switch location.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

On one hand, I agree, I personally would use a re-marked white to feed power to the switch. On the other hand, would it not be allowed, as the re-marked white in the diagram is not being used as a return to the _switched outlet_? Or would you consider sw 1 (the one with the source feed) to also be an ‘outlet’ as per NEC definition? Curious on your thoughts.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I too can see that point Kyle. I use the white as the feed and keep the blk/rd as travellers for consistancy. I don't think I have ever asked an inspector for their take on this.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Problem is I don't consider that drawing a switch loop. The feed is at the switch not at the light fixture. 
How would you like if the power feed went to the common of the first switch and the black from the far switch connected to the black to fixture.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Functionally I don't see any difference between the two methods Joe.

Why would you not consider the wiring to the 2nd switch a switch loop? You are only taking hot conductors to and from the switch.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

You're right Jim, there is no difference in either scenerio. As long as the power goes to one common and the load to the other common, makes no difference which switch gets which or where it's located in the circuit. I know you guys know this, just saying.


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

Kyles Rules for 3-ways are very helpful. You should make a sticky, Kyle 


Power _(feed; black from source)_ goes to one Common.
Load _(black, or reidentified white)_, from light goes to other Common (on 2nd switch).
Source white _(Neutral)_ goes directly to light.
Travelers_ (red and black - if using 3-wire cable)_ connect to remaining terminals on switches.
If a white is used as a HOT, it must be reidentified as such at both ends _(black tape, or a Sharpie Pen)_.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I am disputing the fact that it was said the white wire must be used to go TO the far switch as the power feed and the black used as a traveller. I believe that only applies to a feed at the light fixture so that you don't end up with two whites on the fixture.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

I agree with you joe, it doesn’t have to go to the far switch. It can go to either. Where was it said it had to? (curious)

If you’re referring to the diagram I posted, I was pointing out the travellers and switch leg the OP asked about.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white must be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

Gotcha :thumbsup:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Jim Port said:


> Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white must be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.



That's it.


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## vote4Pedro (Jul 23, 2010)

Saturday Cowboy said:


> you have a traveler and the switch leg crossed.


much thanks. it was a simple fix. the old 3 way switch on top the stairs have those white and red on different sides.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

*My take.*



Jim Port said:


> Kyle, I posted 200.7 that says the white *must* be used as a feed to the switch. Joe does not think a dead-end 3w is a switch loop if I understand his position so I think he is saying 200.7 would not apply. As long as you don't end up with two whites at the fixture.


The code doesn't state it must.

*310.12 Conductor Identification.
*(A) Grounded Conductors. Insulated or covered grounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
(B) Equipment Grounding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be in accordance with 250.119.
(C) *Ungrounded Conductors. Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as a single conductor or in multiconductor cables, shall be finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors. Distinguishing markings shall not conflict in any manner with the surface markings required by 310.11(B)(1). Branch-circuit ungrounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 210.5(C).* Feeders shall be identified in accordance with 215.12.

*Exception: Conductor identification shall be permitted in accordance with 200.7.*

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
*(A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C):
(1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
*(2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on
other than green insulation
(3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1)
through (3).
*(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.* In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

When it is a cable assembly "*and the white is used as the supply"* it has to be permanently reidentified. In the OP diagram the white wire is a traveller and does not require any reidentification. Had the white wire been used as a feed then it shall comply with the above.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Those above codes seem to me to only deal with conductor identification. I don't see the part where is must be used to feed the switch. It says "where it is used" not it "must be used". I am not familiar with all the code articles but there must another section that says how to use the white in switch loops.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

joed said:


> Those above codes seem to me to only deal with conductor identification. I don't see the part where is must be used to feed the switch. It says "where it is used" not it "must be used". I am not familiar with all the code articles but there must another section that says how to use the white in switch loops.


Did you read 200.7(C)(2). That is the article.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

OK I see it now. It does specifically say "not as return to the outlet". So I think it only refers to the cable assy going to the fixture(outlet) not between the three ways.


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