# Painting stained trim and doors



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

The SW multipurpose states compatibility with glossy paints, but not varnishes or urethanes. I'd use a tried and true primer rated for all coatings - Zinsser Bin is my favorite.

Definitely take the doors down to paint them. Remove all of the hardware. I like to tape the glass.

I'd use the 6" foam rollers and a good Purdy brush for the muntins and other detail work.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

GottaFixIt said:


> The SW multipurpose states compatibility with glossy paints, but not varnishes or urethanes. I'd use a tried and true primer rated for all coatings - Zinsser Bin is my favorite.
> 
> Definitely take the doors down to paint them. Remove all of the hardware. I like to tape the glass.
> 
> I'd use the 6" foam rollers and a good Purdy brush for the muntins and other detail work.


No sanding necessary with Zinsser Bin?


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

No scuffing/sanding necessary, but it has to be clean and dry.


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

The problem with not sanding is that sometimes stained/clearcoated work doesn't have the paint quality feel as to smoothness. To smooth that after the priming may result in removing much of the primer. It's always good practice to sand surfaces prior to priming, because bonding is not the only reason for sanding. As to primer, that application is not exactly the best to learn the ropes with BIN. But, that would be my choice. I can give you some tips if you're interested and choose it. If you choose bin, opt not to get paint on the glass with the intention of blading it later, bin sticks to glass, and that glass looks beveled, which is harder to blade. Good Luck.
Joe


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> The problem with not sanding is that sometimes stained/clearcoated work doesn't have the paint quality feel as to smoothness. To smooth that after the priming may result in removing much of the primer. It's always good practice to sand surfaces prior to priming, because bonding is not the only reason for sanding. As to primer, that application is not exactly the best to learn the ropes with BIN. But, that would be my choice. I can give you some tips if you're interested and choose it. If you choose bin, opt not to get paint on the glass with the intention of blading it later, bin sticks to glass, and that glass looks beveled, which is harder to blade. Good Luck.
> Joe


I am definitely interested in any tips or suggestions you can give regarding using BIN or my Sherwin Williams Super Paint which I absolutely love.

The only reason I mentioned **not** blue taping the glass was to make sure that I got all the cracks around the glass covered sufficiently. I was worried about blue taping it and then painting, and then pulling the tape off and then seeing exposed bare wood around the glass, thus why I mentioned using a blade to scrape. Sounds like this is a bad idea, and I should and will blue tape.

If the bare wood feels smooth already, should I sand it? What grit sandpaper should I use? 

I want the highest quality finished product, so I am not adverse to necessary extra work, but only if it is **necessary**. :thumbsup:


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

Bin has a different consistency than most paint & primer. Almost like heavy milk. It does take a bit to take used to, but it dries in about 45 mins and can be sanded if necessary.

As far as sanding the current finish - Since it's basically smooth now, I'd maybe hit the flat spots with 220 grit on a Random Orbit Sander and not touch the muntins unless there is a specific area that needs attention. If you're not using a gloss paint, I wouldn't bother sanding at all. Definitely do not touch the glass with the sand paper. Fine grit 3M sanding sponge for the door casing and other intricate pieces, if necessary.

Use a razor blade when taping the glass. Run tape along one edge, overlapping at the sides, then push in and cut these tight in the corners with the blade. Be careful when painting not to build to much between the wood & the tape. When you're done, carefully run the blade along the edge to give a nice, clean edge, then pull the tape.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

I'm using semi-gloss, so it sounds like I am hearing what I want to hear - no sanding necessary!! :thumbup:

Thanks for the taping and painting tips. Good stuff.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Why use Bin?

Scruff sand it , clean, a coat of Fresh Start, paint.

I see no need for Bin in this application at all.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Why use Bin?
> 
> Scruff sand it , clean, a coat of Fresh Start, paint.
> 
> I see no need for Bin in this application at all.


Ok, I just got back from the Depot with a $40 gallon of BIN. 

Do I really need this stuff?

As mentioned earlier, I also have a < $20 gallon of Sherwin Williams multi-purpose primer which the Sherwin Williams clerk 'recommended'.

Standing by......


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey noone, you can get away with a latex primer if you choose. I would just like a shellac barrier between my latex and that stain and any possible tannin that may be apparent but can't be seen because of the stain. But then again, I don't have concerns working with shellac, and I can certainly understand your hesitancy. Your big concern is to get a good bond with the primer. I see so many instances of paint chipping and peeling down to brown stain. If you use a bonding primer, you only need a light scuff sand, nothing too strenuous. Some will tell you no sanding with bonding primer, but I always err on the side of caution, as well as getting a smooth finish. You're only going to pass this way one time, get the most out of it. I would start on the crown molding, then do the other doors, saving the french door for last after your brush is warmed up. Good Luck. keep us posted.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Hey noone, you can get away with a latex primer if you choose. I would just like a shellac barrier between my latex and that stain and any possible tannin that may be apparent but can't be seen because of the stain. But then again, I don't have concerns working with shellac, and I can certainly understand your hesitancy. Your big concern is to get a good bond with the primer. I see so many instances of paint chipping and peeling down to brown stain. If you use a bonding primer, you only need a light scuff sand, nothing too strenuous. Some will tell you no sanding with bonding primer, but I always err on the side of caution, as well as getting a smooth finish. You're only going to pass this way one time, get the most out of it. I would start on the crown molding, then do the other doors, saving the french door for last after your brush is warmed up. Good Luck. keep us posted.


Decisions, decisions.

I don't mind the $$ spent on the BIN, but I want to ensure that spending more $$ isn't going to make my life harder.


Is BIN harder to work with than just the regular latex primer? Can a DIYer like myself who has probably painted 10 large rooms with crown in his lifetime handle BIN? 

Also, wondering if the 'multi-purpose' SW primer is the right primer for this job. It doesn't say it's specifically for varnished wood like their 'Adhesion Primer', but maybe this 'Adhesion Primer' is just Sherwin William's version of BIN?

Probably over thinking all of this, but good conversation at any rate.....


----------



## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

ok lightly sand ,these guys recommending lightly sanding are painters:yes: ,when they do a job its done right:yes: .if they thought you could do it with out sanding they wouldn't. with that being said all your doing is deglossing ,i mean run your hand up and down every square inch .this is easy ,quick ,and necessary:yes:. bin will grip but its not my choice:no: i think it drys too hard and does not hold paint on edges as well as a oil . i would use zinsser cover stain with a nylon polyester brush in leaves fewer brush marks than china bristle :yes:.if you choose to go latex bonding primer that's ok .i would go sherwin williams adhesion :yes:,then 2 coats super paint or pro classic. pro classic has a little learning curve to using it. but when done right it looks like old schoo oil


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

If you know what the coating is now, then find a primer rated for it.

I use BIN in this type of situation because, chances are, you don't know what it is. BIN is rated for all coatings - "You can't go wrong".

BIN is harder to work with than latex. It dries _very quickly_ and is pretty soupy. It also smells like strong whiskey. Cleanup requires denatured alcohol.

If you decide to go with a latex primer, look up how to determine what you're working with (as far as the current finish) and how to prep it for latex. At minimum, it will require a good sanding to degloss. Worst case, you'll need to strip it completely.

Btw, BIN goes a _long_ way. You'd probably need a quart or less for that job.


----------



## jarheadoo7 (Jun 7, 2011)

i agree with BIN.. unless you know what was used to coat your wood. also its true you dont have to sand.. but if you dont it will be noticeable and you will wish you did. get ready to have a tube of ALEX 25 caulk handy your gonna need it when the gaps start popping out behind the white color.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

To be on the safe side, I think it is best for me to use the BIN.

Should I use my Purdy brushes with BIN?

I am worried about cleanup.

Do I have to go by Wal-Mart and buy ammonia to clean my brushes or is there some kind of household cleaning item (maybe some mop and glo or some other type of floor cleaner) that I can use?

I have isobopryl alcohol and mineral spirits at the house, if that helps, but no pure ammonium.


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

This is how I clean brushes with BIN:
Get a quart of denatured alcohol. 
Pour some in an old cup and soak your brushes in it while you're cleaning up the workspace. 
Agitate most of the paint out and then rub some dish soap into the bristles.
Rinse in warm water, squeezing paint out with fingers.
Pour a little clean denatured alcohol onto bristles and rub in some more dish soap.
Rinse again in warm water until clear.

If your project has taken a while and the BIN has dried into the brush, you can give it a longer soaking in alcohol. I've used Iso Alc to do quick cleanups and it works, but generally use denatured alcohol from the paint or big box store.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

What about just getting some inexpensive paint brushes from Wal-Mart and then put the brush in a plastic zip-lock when done for next use?


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

Bin will leave some brush strokes from a cheap brush. It may be ok if you're rolling the flats. 
They don't hold for very long in a bag. The BIN dries up fairly quickly even in a bag. I think I used a brush after about 2 weeks, but it was already getting pretty stiff.


----------



## m1951mm (Apr 16, 2011)

One thing I did not see mentioned about the application of Bin (or other fast setting coatings), if you see a spot that you missed, do not go back and try to touch it up. Wait for it to DRY and then apply more where needed. Once you have coated an area keep going, let it dry and then later touch those spots and feather out.


----------



## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Why use Bin?
> 
> Scruff sand it , clean, a coat of Fresh Start, paint.
> 
> I see no need for Bin in this application at all.


 word:thumbup:


----------



## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

No need for bin. I would scuff sand, clean and apply Sherwin Williams adhesion primer and 2 coats of Sherwin Williams ProClassic.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

*used BIN anyways*

Just got finished with using BIN. Used probably less than 1 quart so far on the crown, base molding, window ledges and door trim. I still need to prime the door slabs and the french door, which I am personally dreading having to tediously tape. I am guessing that I will easily have over a 1/2 gallon of BIN left when I am finished with this room.

The BIN was very strange to work with. It is indeed very milky and I was splashing it every where when I first started using it, but then got used to it. Luckily, the carpet is going to the dumpster so I just splattered on it at will. In fact, my first pour out of the can I spilled a great deal of it on the carpet.... :thumbup: You can still see the wood underneath my BIN job, but I'm hoping it's enough primer anyways, at least I think it is. Man, does that stuff stink. I used a box fan, and ran the AC blower fan non-stop and it still smelled incredibly strong, like Everclear x 100! I can still taste the fumes in my mouth and nose.

It dries smooth and seems to be fairly forgiving, as in you can pretty much slop it on and it still feels smooth to the touch although it certainly doesn't look like it. As long as the latex paint takes to it, I will be a happy camper.

Cleanup was not bad at all. Used a 50/50 mix of ammonia (2 bucks at Wal-mart for a 1/2 gallon) and water and it cleaned my wide Purdy brush in no time. I just swished it in the solution, and rinsed and repeated a few times, no problem.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

housepaintingny said:


> No need for bin. I would scuff sand, clean and apply Sherwin Williams adhesion primer and 2 coats of Sherwin Williams ProClassic.


 
Well, thanks, I thought I was all alone out here.
Bin is great for some things but as the OP found out, the smell will kill you, really.
I still feel it is over kill for this job, if it was sanded, any *good *primer would have worked.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Well, thanks, I thought I was all alone out here.
> Bin is great for some things but as the OP found out, the smell will kill you, really.
> I still feel it is over kill for this job, if it was sanded, any *good *primer would have worked.


 I will add that it was nice to **not** have to sand anything.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

noone said:


> I will add that it was nice to **not** have to sand anything.


 
Yea, well hopefully that decision will not come back to bite you in the a** down the road.


----------



## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

noone said:


> I will add that it was nice to **not** have to sand anything.


I don't know why you would not at the very least scuff sand the surface first. A light sanding will give the primer something to bite to. It is painting industry standard to at least lightly sand first, especially over a glossy, slick, stained, or varnished surface no matter what primer you use.


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Looks good noone. From the lap pattern on the crown I can see you have a bit of understanding doing brushwork. Now we have to work on increasing your coverage. Not sure what stage your at on the job, give an update. Don't get too far away from the sandpaper. You said you weren't opposed to doing what it took to get a good job, well, we're telling you. Take care.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Looks good noone. From the lap pattern on the crown I can see you have a bit of understanding doing brushwork. Now we have to work on increasing your coverage. Not sure what stage your at on the job, give an update. Don't get too far away from the sandpaper. You said you weren't opposed to doing what it took to get a good job, well, we're telling you. Take care.


I'm on the caulking stage. I'm only been able to work a few hours a night thus far. Still have to BIN the doors, which I am not looking forward to. Especially that extremely HEAVY french door with glass. That door took some effort to move around by myself and I weigh about 170.

While caulking, I have noticed that the bin is flaking off where it dripped heavily on the tops of the base molding in the area where I first started. I don't think I had wiped the dust off of that part of the base molding so I think that is the issue. I will sand that small area down to get it smooth.

That picture is of the section where I first started using BIN. When I started it, it was messy and I dripped it everywhere. The coverage and technique improved drastically as I progressed through the job.


----------



## GottaFixIt (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice work. Coverage with BIN is definitely a bit of a challenge. Still all in all, I'm quite sure that sanding all of that molding would have been a nightmare and both the expense of material and time would have offset the savings on a cheaper primer.
Of course, it doesn't matter what you use, the surface still needs to be clean before coating :wink: I've had drips of BIN before. It never affected adhesion.


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

Well, I started taping up this huge french door and after 20 minutes and only TWO glass panes of one side taped, I thought, "maybe I should just stain this darker to match our dark furniture....". It seems like a fine, solid door.

Can I sand this and stain it? What do I use, a MinWax product?

And most importantly, do I still have to **TAPE** this SOB?


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Noone, I think you're making a bigger deal out of this than you have to. I have faith that you can paint that door without tape. I have a tutorial on working without tape on my blog, read it. It's geared toward cutting walls but the principle is the same. Then get yourself a quality 1.5 inch angle sash brush. Do all the inside sash first. Then do the outside sash only and feather out the material that overlaps on the stiles and rails. While that's drying, do the heel and toe, wiping any overlap onto the face with a rag. Then come back and do the stiles and rails. (deviation from the norm due to using BIN). On the sash, run a brush full down the center to cover, then take a dip and do each side of the individual muntin. Lap onto the stiles and rails but lay them off in the direction of the grain. Just work your way through one muntin at a time, top to bottom. If you start messing up, go to another section and let the last section dry before you resume. You can do it, put the tape down. And no, you can't stain. You can only stain unsealed wood.


----------



## m1951mm (Apr 16, 2011)

If you still choose to use tape after seeing Joe's post, get yourself a wallpaper knife (one of the breakaway blade types), the straights are easy over lap a little bit and then cut away the excess with the knife. Nice crisp clean corners. With the blade cut from the corner out and be careful not to cut the wood.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

It will not hurt to get some paint on the glass. it comes off easily with the tool in the pic, just use a new blade


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

Yeah, I'm definitely over thinking things here. I just need to do it and be done with it. I'm dreading getting BIN all over the glass. Seriously, you can't revarnish a previously varnished door a different color?


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Noone, work with the tips of the brush. Hold the brush with the tips of your fingers. You're only dipping just the tips of the brush in the paint. And hold the brush lightly. Never death grip the brush. I was taught that a brush and roller should be held so lightly that I can knock them out of your hand. Work with flowing motion, there's no choppiness or stop/start. Put the tip of the brush on the muntin where you want it right up against the glass, lock your wrist, and pull it along that line using the pointers provided. When you're applying paint to the facing edge of the muntin, let the brush roll over onto the side of the muntin which will provide a little extra material that the brush will push up to the line. Relax, take your time and concentrate. Go Noone, Go Noone, Go Noone. LOL


----------



## noone (May 4, 2011)

Yessss!!!! I'm psyched now!!! Be one with the brush young painter apprentice. I can do it. I can do it!!

LOL

Thanks again for the tips. I will post finished pics.


----------



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

noone said:


> Yessss!!!! I'm psyched now!!! Be one with the brush young painter apprentice. I can do it. I can do it!!
> 
> LOL
> 
> Thanks again for the tips. I will post finished pics.


Yes Grasshopper, find your zen. Tune in to your inner brush. :laughing::laughing:
On a more comical note, I would advise, if one side of that door is always blocked from view, ie, the door is always open, practice on the side that is rarely in view. No shake in confidence there, just good advice that I follow myself.


----------



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

noone said:


> Yeah, I'm definitely over thinking things here. I just need to do it and be done with it. I'm dreading getting BIN all over the glass. Seriously, you can't revarnish a previously varnished door a different color?


 never mind


----------

