# Crumbling low density limestone retaining wall



## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

Desperate homeowner here. I have been racking my brain on how to "dress" the existing low density limestone retaining wall to stop it falling apart and to make it look uniform and "nice". Seems nearly every solution and quote I have received is way over my budget by at least 50%.

1) formwork and poured concrete in front of limestone wall - will probably crack due to hydraulic pressure from behind. Super expensive.
2) post and concrete panels then backfill with gravel. Again, not cheap... not DIY
3) 3000kg new uniform concrete blocks applied in front - $18000 materials only for wall 91 feet x 8 feet high. I have 2 tiers to do plus possible extensions. Still way too much. Not DIY. This would create a double retaining wall, which I think is overkill.
4) finally I looked at sandbags with barb wire between rows (taken from earthbag construction).... the polypropylene bags are cheap, I would need about 1700 of them.... the fill material is what I am not sure about..... filling with dirt would experience freeze/thaw problems which is what I am trying to avoid in the first place..... filling with just small gravel might be better..... what I am not so sure about is the cost of "dressing" the sandbag wall with cement stucco (lime, sand, cement) to protect the bags from the sun and give me the look I want. Anyone think this last option is the cheapest? I am not concerned about labour, obviously this would be a family endeavor to save money.

Seems the sandbag solution is DIY friendly and would allow me to extend the wall much longer than it is in order to help level off part of our 30 to 45 degree backyard. Right now we have zero useful space on almost 1/2 acre.

See attached pic.

thanks
Joseph


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,..... It don't matter which plan ya go with,.....

_Unless you develop proper drainage, Behind it_,......
It'll eventually fail,......


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

I'm reading two different issues here, and I don't know which one you're after.

1. "Dress" - everyone I've ever dealt with, including myself, would prefer nice chiseled-face limestone over concrete, stamped panels, or CMUs. But the cost is prohibitive, which is why CMUs are usually the go-to for taller walls. You have a goldmine with those thicknesses.

2. Gaining level space on your 1/2 acre - are you going to dig out to the upper wall to have an 8' high wall there? I can't zoom in enough, is the lower wall bottom course placed fieldstone or cut from existing tableshelf there to make your yard?

It's difficult to make those large pieces "uniform" and they were probably positioned with a forklift. Limestone can crack its face off and need cleaning, but if the water behind it running down the hill wasn't dealt with, it may be exacerbating the look you are not liking now.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

1) I have grown to hate natural limestone because of the variable density and how the freeze/thaw cycle affects the stone.... it's always chipping away..... in my case especially. Even supposedly high grade limestone has cracked in the front of my property.... just a single stone, split right in half over the winter. No standing water at all.



2) I am going to split the difference, I guess.... but prefereably I am going to build the ground level wall up and over the existing 1st tier limestone by about 3 or 4 feet higher.... this will allow me to level out that area in between the 1st and 2nd level. I plan on doing the same with the 2nd level limestone wall - build up a wall up and over by an extra 3 feet to level out the area up by the fence. I plan on spanning a greenhouse across the area between the 1st and 2nd tier.... and covering the whole area with metal mesh to keep out the rodents....the greenhouse willl also help direct water away from the wall through a couple of troughs, one in front, one in the back, sloping away, of course. That'e kind of the idea.



Those are giant blocks of fieldstone placed over the entire street. Mine just happens to be 2 tier, and the ugliest of the bunch. The whole subdivision used to a giant lake 1000 years ago, so the area is mostly sand. Everyone else seems to have gotten stone that's a bit denser than mine, although still chipping from the top.


I just don't like the look of natural limestone and the different block sizes.... there are just too many crevices and holes for gophers, and woodchucks, and chipmonks.


I am looking at how feasable it is use cement stucco or hydrated lime stucco over top the sandbags at this point.... trying to figure out the costs...


and yes, I will of course put in weep holes and a french drain. Something the original builder didn't do, I think. The limestone blocks as they are now are just a sponge for water.... there is water seeping out the cracks all over the place in the spring.


thanks for taking the time to answer, I appreciate it


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

A couple more pics.


Here you can see the other end of the 2 tier limestone wall. 



I'd like to extend the 1st tier (base) another 90 feet to match up and make it level with tier #2, creating some more flat space to enjoy without having to sprain my ankle on an incline. This property was meant for rich people who have $100,000 lying around for landscaping..... or meant for mountain goats. As long as my new sandbag/stucco faced walls lasts 10 to 15 years, I am fine with that.... long enough for the kids and family to enjoy.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

And for the big shocker.... the mother of all retaining walls, picture taken from street level.

It's holding up 1/2 my backyard

This one I am leaving alone.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

That first post pic looked like some good specimens on both walls which is why I wondered about your concern for the look, but I guess the rest of the walls are deteriorated seeing the other pics. Those closeups look more like flagstone how some are splitting in the horizontal plane. 

I feel your pain about having to spend a fortune on either having anything removed to create more level back yard, or just to install a factory-made product.

One possible caveat if you put a new 8' higher wall in front of and leave the existing stone exactly as is, you might lose maybe 4'-8' more area from the lower yard. Guessing leanback slope plus a 48" tieback because I don't know if you'd want the geogrid sitting on top of deteriorating limestone (thinking many big voids) that can't be compacted later. Although I suppose just some bobcat work could slide back the top limestone and leave the fieldstone. 

It sounds like you'd only be digging on the main level, but filling 3'-4' on the 2nd, 3rd, and also extending the wall out. That's a lot of fill that the spoils won't equal. Haul in will rival your wall $$.

The sandbag system I'm unfamiliar with. I see it's common in 2nd/3rd world countries and "parging" might work in those climates. I would think not so successful with freeze/thaw. Is this used where you are at?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Just a story for gits and shiggles, for a while I was dumping my concrete/brick/asphalt debris to a guy I found on Craigslist. He was raising grade for a gradual-slope ramp about 8' high to access a second story garage floor. His retaining walls were made from stacked used tires. I never returned beyond 3 tires high to see if it was successful.


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## landfillwizard (Feb 21, 2014)

3onthetree said:


> Just a story for gits and shiggles, for a while I was dumping my concrete/brick/asphalt debris to a guy I found on Craigslist. He was raising grade for a gradual-slope ramp about 8' high to access a second story garage floor. His retaining walls were made from stacked used tires. I never returned beyond 3 tires high to see if it was successful.



I built a retaining wall out of Used tires several years ago. I started the wall with big semi tires and gradually decreased the size of the tires as I went up. I also set the layers back ~ 6" as I went up. I placed drainage tile and stone behind the first layer. I back filled and tamped each layer of tires. I didn't fill the annular space inside the tire but made sure the opening of the tire was filled an compacted.


The wall was built 20 years ago and is still standing.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

landfillwizard said:


> The wall was built 20 years ago and is still standing.


I will imagine the tire wall will still be there 500 years from now :wink2:

I'm not condoning it, but the logic is there that you can fill the inside and make a strong wall. And low walls can use bicycle tires, but cold climates must use snow tires.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

Using sand bags filled with dirt , Gravel or sand will not support the use of Stucco I estimate it will fail within two years. You can fill sand bags with a Rammed Earth mixture to build a wall also this type wall would be hard to stucco due to the bag. You could look into using a gunite type wall system.
There was @ one time a EPS Core & Wire Mesh panel that made a very strong wall don't know if they are still made in the USA.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Those are engineered retaining walls, the only consideration was to retain in order to build a house there. The same engineer should be consulted before you make any changes or you will relieve him of his responsibility for the wall. The city should know who was the engineer of record .


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

3onthetree said:


> T
> The sandbag system I'm unfamiliar with. I see it's common in 2nd/3rd world countries and "parging" might work in those climates. I would think not so successful with freeze/thaw. Is this used where you are at?



Yeah, I am guessing maybe stabilzed sand/concrete mixture might be better for the long run.... but I am having some trouble finding anyone in Canada that has done it. I never thought that fill could be that expensive but now that I've called around, it's not that cheap, as you said.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

landfillwizard said:


> I built a retaining wall out of Used tires several years ago. I started the wall with big semi tires and gradually decreased the size of the tires as I went up. I also set the layers back ~ 6" as I went up. I placed drainage tile and stone behind the first layer. I back filled and tamped each layer of tires. I didn't fill the annular space inside the tire but made sure the opening of the tire was filled an compacted.
> 
> 
> The wall was built 20 years ago and is still standing.



I only wish my wife would allow me to use tires. However that would be a heck of a lot of tires and I'm not so sure how they would affect the soil I grow on.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

ClarenceBauer said:


> Using sand bags filled with dirt , Gravel or sand will not support the use of Stucco I estimate it will fail within two years. You can fill sand bags with a Rammed Earth mixture to build a wall also this type wall would be hard to stucco due to the bag. You could look into using a gunite type wall system.
> There was @ one time a EPS Core & Wire Mesh panel that made a very strong wall don't know if they are still made in the USA.



what about stabilzed sand? (sand/cement mixture) It would turn into a hard block in no time..... you really think that the wall would move enough to destroy/crack the stucco finish?


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> Those are engineered retaining walls, the only consideration was to retain in order to build a house there. The same engineer should be consulted before you make any changes or you will relieve him of his responsibility for the wall. The city should know who was the engineer of record .



Getting the local town involved is just opening up a can of worms. The wall has been engineered, it works.... done deal. Looks like crap. You have to wonder if they weren't concerned about the asthetics 10 years ago, they are not going to care today. 



All I really want to do is put a "face" on it.... a cladding.... a non engineered "dressing" - whatever you want to call it. Hell, if I could just stucco right over the limestone, or hire some guy and shoot it with air-entrained cement, I would. But the problem is the poor drainage in behind that monstrosity of limestone will cause it to crack. Those boulders are moving each year. It's another can of worms to dig it up from behind and extremely costly.


That's why originally I was looking at putting up a concrete post and panel wall.... decorative concrete panels that slide in between two concrete posts. They can make the panels any color, any design, using just about any kind of mold. I am still contemplating going that route. They can put super thin concrete panels... doesn't matter....it would essentially look like a fence. Then put proper drainaige in behind and proper backfill. That still seems like it could go up faster than any other solution out there and perhaps less costly.


I don't really want to deal with 3000kg blocks at all. Because that would require an engineer, for sure.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

bjr72 said:


> Getting the local town involved is just opening up a can of worms. The wall has been engineered, it works.... done deal. Looks like crap. You have to wonder if they weren't concerned about the asthetics 10 years ago, they are not going to care today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen them hidden with a combination with decks and fences but here we are just dealing with a small city lot size, that is the cheapes retaining wall they can build.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

ok, so how about a fiber cement board fence with additional reinforcement from behind using angle iron spanning between two posts? that way I can put drainage and backfill?


Can fiber cement board take any pressure? Or is it weak?


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

thinking outside thet box.... 



high tension wires set between two massive concrete end supports? Then fill the whole damn thing with large gravel. So all I would need is 2 massive posts on either end of the 91 foot run, then string wire in between.... 



THAT would need an engineer, I am guessing.


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## bjr72 (Oct 17, 2011)

grasping for straws here.


or this:


structural cement board

https://ameriformllc.com/armoroc.asp


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

bjr72 said:


> ok, so how about a fiber cement board fence with additional reinforcement from behind using angle iron spanning between two posts? that way I can put drainage and backfill?
> 
> 
> Can fiber cement board take any pressure? Or is it weak?


I have seen the fence along the highway, I doubt you would use it for retaining.


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