# how to support wall to replace bottom plate



## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

hello

I would like to understand how I can support an exterior wall while I remove the bottom sole plate to replace it. About 6ft of it is rotten. It's at the corner of the house thus I think the corner is still supported

The vertical stud attaching to the sole plate also have their bottom 6" rotten. 
Once I put in the new sole plate, I will cut the bottom 10" and put a new block and sister those studs

Thanks much


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Got a picture?
Just build a temperary wall to support the ceiling joist.
Have you figured out why it rotted out.
You need to know that info before hand and do something to fix that before fixing the plate.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm not big into construction carpentry, but I don't really get why people build temporary walls all the time when jacks seem so much more convenient.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Thanks Joe.

What does a temporary wall looks like?

The bottom was rotten because my shower pan leaked. I ripped out the shower down to studs in order to change the tile, but then to surprise found out I need to fix my frame due to this water damage.

It's a outside wall, stucco is on the outside, and there is a little window in the wall (where you see the triple 2x4).

Thanks


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## funfool (Oct 5, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> I'm not big into construction carpentry, but I don't really get why people build temporary walls all the time when jacks seem so much more convenient.


Actually a temp wall is just a bunch of cheap 2x4 and supports the structure you are working on while replacing the rotten wood.
A jack is great, but a jack does not support a wall ... it is a jack and it supports or lifts at one point.

2x4's are cheap and great for temp walls for support, when done with them, all dried out and twisted and make great chicken coops.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Jacks - I wonder for me if that is a telepost? They are ok, and in certain instances I have used them. They do put all the weight on one spot and can crush/bend/go through a floor. Depends on circumstances.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

This is a shower room and it has another parallel to it. The 2 walls are 3ft apart.

Is the temporary wall also a wall parallel to it? How close should it be? Can my shower wall serve as a temporary wall?

It's might not be feasible to have the wall ve close because my trusses are rotten and it might not a good idea to have them as support.

Thanks


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Floor trusses would be my first thing to fix!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

mae-ling said:


> They do put all the weight on one spot and can crush/bend/go through a floor.


You would usually put a plank of wood underneath, and also use several along the area to disperse the weight.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

mae-ling said:


> Floor trusses would be my first thing to fix!


No _chit_, those are in *BAD SHAPE*. 

If you're unfamiliar with setting up a support wall then it might be a very good idea to call in a professional contractor to help you on this. That looks like pretty severe damage. I'd have serious reservations about where any interior temporary supports could be installed. It may not be possible to support it from the exterior to perform the repairs necessary.

Because, here's the thing, a typical temporary wall goes a few feet inside the wall that needs supporting. Problem is the trusses under that floor look to be damaged enough to possibly make using that kind of support a BIG PROBLEM. You'd be talking about putting a lot more weight farther inside on a truss that already has problems at the ends. 

Think of the old "straw that broke the camel's back" saying. Right now you've only got the weight of the floor on those damaged trusses. The wall and structure above are not bearing down on the trusses. If you put up a temporary wall inside that room you'd be moving the weight from the outside, to the inside trusses and potentially cause them to fail. 

I gather there's a crawl space below this area? If that's the case then a temporary wall would have to be built on something put down at the ground level and built up from there. Or even if there's a basement below, there'd have to be a support area suitable for carrying a new point load. You cannot just rest a post on the soil or the basement slab as that could just punch through it as the weight was put upon it.

This is one of those areas where you really do need to consider calling in the pros or, at the very least, a structural engineer to come up with a plan.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Mr. Kearney is absolutely correct about the trusses. All trusses are designed to be carry load (be supported at) the nodes, where the individual pieces come together. As Mr. Kearney correctly noted, you could be supporting the temporary wall between truss nodes, which requires a very careful analysis of the strength of the truss. Even if you bring the temporary wall far enough out from the wall so the wall sits over a truss node, you still need to analyze the truss for loading capacity at the point of support.

Your floor trusses are designed to support distributed floor load, typically around 30 or 40 pounds per square foot, but they are not designed to support point loads such as a temporary wall supporting the house above. The truss manufacturer should in theory be able to tell you if the truss can support additional load. In this case, I would be surprised if they said yes, given the poor condition of the trusses, plus truss manufacturers are not likely to perform structural analysis unless you pay them. You may need to hire an independent engineer to do the analysis. Alternative is to support the wall from the outside, as has been previously discussed.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks Daniel, I wasn't thinking about how trusses, even in good shape, aren't designed to handle a new point load along a different part of their span. Good to keep in mind.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Thank you all for the warnings. I have the same concerns as well and I am working on re-enforcing the trusses. 

I was wondering if I have to setup the temp wall at all. 

1) the wall to repair is an outside wall of a shower room. The shower has an inside wall parallel to it which is 3ft apart. You can see part of the wall in the bottom right corner of the 1st picture. I think the temp wall would be similar. Is 3ft too far to support it?
If I have to setup the temp wall, I would probably put it over the metal plates which is the strong point of the trusses. And that will be 1ft appart from the inside wall.

2) Right now, I don't think this bottom plate is supporting it at all. The plate is rotten. The plate is installed on top of the subfloor which is decomposing and spongy. I think the wall is hanging to its top plate instead and I can see about a 1/2" sag. In the 2nd picture, you can see at least 2 horizontal studs that I believe is holding the wall in place right now and supporting the roof.


Do you think I can replace the bottom w/o a temp wall?

Is it worth to fix the 1/2" sag which I need to jack up the top plate a bit?

Thoughts?
Thanks


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

wkearney99 said:


> I gather there's a crawl space below this area? If that's the case then a temporary wall would have to be built on something put down at the ground level and built up from there. Or even if there's a basement below, there'd have to be a support area suitable for carrying a new point load. You cannot just rest a post on the soil or the basement slab as that could just punch through it as the weight was put upon it.


No crawl space. The shower is on the second floor.

I am re-enforcing the truss first before fixing the sole plate. I explained my fix in this thread


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

jemhunter said:


> Thank you all for the warnings. I have the same concerns as well and I am working on re-enforcing the trusses.
> 
> 1) the wall to repair is an outside wall of a shower room. The shower has an inside wall parallel to it which is 3ft apart. You can see part of the wall in the bottom right corner of the 1st picture. I think the temp wall would be similar. Is 3ft too far to support it?
> If I have to setup the temp wall, I would probably put it over the metal plates which is the strong point of the trusses. And that will be 1ft appart from the inside wall.


I am not so sure. Those trusses look quite damaged. I would say your first order of business is to repair the floor trusses. It's going to be a real pain to repair them since you can't really do any cut and replace. My first inclination is to use a two prone approach. First looks like the damages are on the top side of these members, you may be able to use some liquid wood epoxy (I mean the good ones like Rot Doctor or Abatron) that are formulated specifically for structural wood repair, I have used them and they do work and pour right into the damaged areas and let it penetrate and set into the voids. Next I would cut triangular shaped plywood and sandwich the trusses on both sides fastened with premium glue and 8d or 10d nails.



jemhunter said:


> 2) Right now, I don't think this bottom plate is supporting it at all. The plate is rotten. The plate is installed on top of the subfloor which is decomposing and spongy. I think the wall is hanging to its top plate instead and I can see about a 1/2" sag. In the 2nd picture, you can see at least 2 horizontal studs that I believe is holding the wall in place right now and supporting the roof.


Just out of curiosity, if you climb up there and use a clamp to tighten the 1/2" space between the two 2x4s what happens, does the lower piece come up a little or the upper piece come down a little?


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

thanks miamicuse. I am fixing the trusses right now and will get to the bottom plate next.

I described my solution to the truss in this thread http://www.diychatroom.com/f15/jims-master-bathroom-remodeling-april-2013-a-178609/index2/

I wish I knew about Abatron an RotDoctor a day earlier. Last night I just filled the top part of the truss w/ Elmer wood filler. It is not intended for structural repair but for providing a flat surface for whaterver rest on top of it. I am supporting the truss from the bottom and gusset plywood as you described.

I haven't thought about clamping the 2 studs and that's sounds interesting. I would need to cut the ceiling drywall a bit though. i don't have access from the attic as it's to small to get to the edge of the roof.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

With things as bad as you're describing, and as bad looking as they are in the pictures, I would NOT do ANY work without having an engineer inspect it and come up with a plan. 

This is your house you're talking about here, not usually a trivial investment. If you get this wrong you've not only wasted the time and money on the materials, you've potentially put the house at more risk.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

I didn't think this is a big deal. Most contractors told me they can fix it w/o an engineer involved. We are talking about 10 sft of damage. This is only supporting the subfloor. I think the worst case is a sagging floor. The roof should be properly supported once we have good wood in there again.

I agree that if I let the water leak continue that would compromise the house, but fixing the frame doesn't look like rocket science. There are only few options available to re-enforce the frame. I cannot imagine an engineer telling us about a totally different method that we haven't thought of.

I just need some hands on tips from the great people on this forum so I dont do unnecessary work 

Thanks


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Yeah, well "contractors" say all sorts of things about their own competence while running down getting anyone else's opinion. So I'd take that with more than a grain or two of salt, so to speak.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Jemhunter has another thread going about the bad trusses---

I gave him some safe ways to fix the trusses----he has that underway.

As to replacing the rotted studs and bottom plate----
Does the ceiling show any signs of sagging due to the damage?

If not---it is acceptable to replace the plate in shorter sections.

Cut out about 32" worth---replace that much---sister in a new stud along side the old--adding blocking on top of the new plate (in between the new studs) will help stabilize the new work---
Then move to the next bad section.

If the ceiling has sagged---let us know---one if us will tell you how to build a 'jack wall' to lift up the ceiling---Mike----


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Hi Bill,

While some contractors are more knowledgeable than others, I believe, like most of us, they are professionals who are eager to do a good job for their customers. I always evaluate their proposal to see how it makes sense but I have to trust their intentions are honest. If I doubt of their intentions why should I trust a structural engineer?

I think they are good people and I would definitely go back to them if I feel something is beyond my ability. But reading and getting help from forums such as this one, I learned to do a lot of things around the house.

Cheers


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

oh'mike said:


> If the ceiling has sagged---let us know---one if us will tell you how to build a 'jack wall' to lift up the ceiling---Mike----


No noticeable sag from the ceiling. The wall top plate has less than 1/2" sag.

I was concerned if the wall would immediately sag more if I remove the bottom plate and cut off the bottom of the vertical studs. I don't think it would because the bottom plate and wood under is completely soft wood now and must not been providing much support but just wanted to double check w/ folks here.

Thanks


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

miamicuse said:


> you may be able to use some liquid wood epoxy (I mean the good ones like Rot Doctor or Abatron) that are formulated specifically for structural wood repair, I have used them and they do work and pour right into the damaged areas and let it penetrate and set into the voids. Next I would cut triangular shaped plywood and sandwich the trusses on both sides fastened with premium glue and 8d or 10d nails.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, if you climb up there and use a clamp to tighten the 1/2" space between the two 2x4s what happens, does the lower piece come up a little or the upper piece come down a little?


I have used Rot Doctor too and it is good stuff but expensive. If you go through a local lumber yard they may have more leverage with a truss manufacturer to offer a repair solution.

In the end you may be able to use a beam against the ceiling and under a jack at each end to avoid loading the floor in any one area. You might try replacing the shoe and stud ends with a 4"x6" or 8" and straps instead of blocks and sistering.


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

"Every persons knowledge is only as good as those they learned from." Even if I do things because I always do them that way does not mean I am right. And the best one is that even experts disagree.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

The trick to doing anything like this is, if possible, alternate sections to replace... and to do it progressively.

In other words, working from one end, leave the first two studs (# 1 and #2) in place...
Remove stud #3...
Cut and replace the sole (floor) plate to within an inch of stud #2 and stud #4....
Replace stud #3 with a new stud... MAKE IT THE FULL AND PROPER LENGTH... even if you have to ENCOURAGE it to go into place with a small sledge.

Skip two more, and repeat the process... on across the wall.

Finish the wall, and then return to the beginning....
Pick a stud to take out, but leave the other one....
Go on across the wall again like this, taking one, leaving one, and replacing what plate you can.

Now go back to the beginning once more, and take out each remaining stud (and immediately replace it, and the plate) till you complete the wall.

You will end up with many pieces of floor plate, but that doesn't matter as long as you fastened them all down well. The plate does not have to be continuious.

No temp wall this way. No change of bearing location for the trusses, and no jacks. The whole wall gets replaced, and you never cause any serious problems with support.


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## miamicuse (Nov 13, 2011)

jemhunter said:


> thanks miamicuse. I am fixing the trusses right now and will get to the bottom plate next.
> 
> I described my solution to the truss in this thread http://www.diychatroom.com/f15/jims-master-bathroom-remodeling-april-2013-a-178609/index2/
> 
> ...


Elmer wood filler will not do anything other than making it "Look" more solid.

There are ways to repair these trusses like gusset plates but the top portion looks pretty rooted, and the beauty of those liquid wood is that they will flow into all the voids and crevices and bond the old swiss cheese like wood. They are VERY expensive. If you have already filled with wood filler you can still dig them out and use liquid wood, it's not too late. I am just thinking from the stand point of you having access now and never will again. If something happens at a later point your access would be from below, and it it VERY hard to administer that product under load and no top side access point. Even if you don't remove the wood filler, drilling a hole into the damaged area and let the liquid wood flow in would still help.

As for the 1/2" gap, my first inclination is to try the clamps to see how the two beams behave, and that is something that could be done without any stress added to the bad bottom plate. If by clamping the lower beam comes up a little, I would try to tighten the clamp and in doing so lifts the studs away from your bad bottom plate a 1/2". Do you cutting of the rotted studs, remove and replace the bottom plate, how much are you cutting off at the bottom? If you are cutting say 10" or so, instead of sistering, you can put in new short 10" tall studs on the new bottom plate, at the same locations, then put a horizontal piece all the way across them all, and attach the old studs to the top of that.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

jemhunter said:


> While some contractors are more knowledgeable than others, I believe, like most of us, they are professionals who are eager to do a good job for their customers. I always evaluate their proposal to see how it makes sense but I have to trust their intentions are honest. If I doubt of their intentions why should I trust a structural engineer?
> 
> I think they are good people and I would definitely go back to them if I feel something is beyond my ability. But reading and getting help from forums such as this one, I learned to do a lot of things around the house.


Hmmm, ok, so you're equating the knowledge of some random contractor with that of a structural engineer. And since you think the contractor was savvy enough to make you think he was right then there's no reason to seek help from a licensed structural engineer. Good luck with that kind of logic. It's wrong, hopefully it won't turn into 'dead wrong' when something collapses. 

This has NOTHING to do with 'eagerness' or 'good intentions' and EVERYTHING to do with calculating what kind of a repair will best handle the loads and stresses the damage has caused to your house.

Sure, it's one thing to learn a lot from others. But it's also good to learn when it's important to seek the help of licensed engineers. This strikes me as one of those times. You're free to disagree, of course. Let's just hope your eagerness doesn't go horribly wrong.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

wkearney99 said:


> Hmmm, ok, so you're equating the knowledge of some random contractor with that of a structural engineer. And since you think the contractor was savvy enough to make you think he was right then there's no reason to seek help from a licensed structural engineer. Good luck with that kind of logic. It's wrong, hopefully it won't turn into 'dead wrong' when something collapses.


I certainly think and expect a structural engineer to know more than a general contractor when it comes to truss repair. But to say 



wkearney99; said:


> Yeah, well "contractors" say all sorts of things about their own competence while running down getting anyone else's opinion.


I felt you are pointing out an attitude problem instead of a knowledge gap. If I operate from a basis of questioning their motives, it would then apply to any service provider.

I don't disagree it would be safer to consult a structural engineer. But to spend $5000 to get an opinion to repair 10 sft of damage seems an overkill.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Willie T said:


> The trick to doing anything like this is, if possible, alternate sections to replace... and to do it progressively.


Thanks for the recipe Willie. That sounds like a safe way to do this. One thing I haven't figured out is how to slide the new subfloor under the bottom plate.

I need to remove the bottom plate to get access to left over pieces of the subfloor along the edge. There are also nails coming down the the bottom (I can cut them). It seems I have to remove the whole 5 ft of the bottom plate first, put the subfloor, then nail the new bottom plate on top unless I can slide the new subfloor plywood w/ the current rotten plate in place.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

miamicuse said:


> Elmer wood filler will not do anything other than making it "Look" more solid.
> 
> There are ways to repair these trusses like gusset plates but the top portion looks pretty rooted, and the beauty of those liquid wood is that they will flow into all the voids and crevices and bond the old swiss cheese like wood. They are VERY expensive. If you have already filled with wood filler you can still dig them out and use liquid wood, it's not too late. I am just thinking from the stand point of you having access now and never will again. If something happens at a later point your access would be from below, and it it VERY hard to administer that product under load and no top side access point. Even if you don't remove the wood filler, drilling a hole into the damaged area and let the liquid wood flow in would still help.
> 
> As for the 1/2" gap, my first inclination is to try the clamps to see how the two beams behave, and that is something that could be done without any stress added to the bad bottom plate. If by clamping the lower beam comes up a little, I would try to tighten the clamp and in doing so lifts the studs away from your bad bottom plate a 1/2". Do you cutting of the rotted studs, remove and replace the bottom plate, how much are you cutting off at the bottom? If you are cutting say 10" or so, instead of sistering, you can put in new short 10" tall studs on the new bottom plate, at the same locations, then put a horizontal piece all the way across them all, and attach the old studs to the top of that.


You are absolutely right. Better do whatever we can now. I don't want to have to fix this once more.

What I did was excavate the brown rotten wood (is that what you call old swiss cheese?) from the truss, apply copper green, then fill the big hole w/ Elmer wood filler. This is not to restore strength but rather stop the rot from spreading and give a flat surface to the the truss. Then I covered the truss w/ metal stud. I am re-enforcing them to compensate for the reduced strength.

For the bottom plate, I need to replace about 5ft of it. There are 5 vertical studs with rotten bottom ends. I need to cut at least 6 to 12" of the bottom.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

You really, REALLY NEED to have those trusses looked at and a fix designed by a professional that is capable of evaluating them.

Have that person design a fix that you can follow, it may be that a structural filler like has been mentioned before will do the trick (I have my doubts about that).
But don't mess around with this, get the pro out there.

Andy.


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