# Power Save Device



## capt2 (Oct 3, 2007)

I wanted to get feedback on this device that plugs into the panel. It claims to save 10 to 25 percent on an electric bill. What do you sparkys think? Thanks in advance.www.power-save1200.com/?gclid=CJOE45fG-Y8CFQp7PAod9krNMw


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Absolutely no way... it's a gimmick.


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## RichyL (Nov 17, 2007)

Dont know if it will work or not supposedly only stores excess energy from inductive loads. I would not get it mainly because of thier crappy return policy. http://www.power-save.com/return_policy.html You gotta notify them within 48 hours that you are going to return it, which would be before you even get the product!! Do not buy this it is a rip off.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Rip-off....:yes:


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## sluggermike (Sep 2, 2007)

Since you only have 48 hours to return the item, how would you know if it was saving you any money on your electric bill even if you installed it immediately? I have a better idea and I won't even charge you for it. Turn off your lights when you're not using them, and I guarantee that you will save some money. My advice comes with a 30 day money back guarantee.


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## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

never heard of someone requiring you to _let them know_ you are returning something...


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Gentlemen,

The comments so far have been, for want of a better word, "broad".

Contrary to popular belief, this "device" is not a gimmick. It is actually quite functional despite a few points.

Firstly, about the warranty...some have quoted 2 days (48 hours) in which to return the device if not satisfied. This is not correct vis a vis & from the website;

"_*Is there a “Money Back Guarantee?*_
*Yes, 60-day money back guarantee. If in 60 days, you don’t see reduction in usage on your electric bill, call us and let us know, and we’ll give you details on how to return the unit for a full refund of the purchase price. Installation cost will not be refunded.*"

Further;
"****NO returns/exchanges will be honored If you return an item or items to us without notifying us within 48 hours of receiving your order. Returns received without 48 hours notice, return confirmation & after the 7th day will be REFUSED. Packages will be returned back to you. No refund, exchange, or store credit will be issued.*"

These two paragraphs "unclearly" state that if one does not notify the company *within 48 hours of receiving your order, *returns or exchanges will not be honoured. Obviously, the supplier needs a time from which they will start "counting" the warranty period. This is much the same as buying any other piece of equipment, eg an electric hand drill. You are given a period of time in which to lodge the warranty form, usually up to 1 month.

Secondly, the device is defined by the supplier as a Power Factor Correction device. Basically, it's a capacitor that's connected in parallel to the supply. In the case of the Power-Save 1200, my guess is that it is a capacitor rated at 1.2kVAR, which seems about right according to my calculations (based on the demo video footage).
What is not discussed is how the energy supplier bills you. For example, in Australia, Power Factor will make little difference (if any) to the power bill because consumers are not billed on Maximum Demand & consumers are supplied with "Induction disc" Wattmeters. A 1kW motor will absorb 1kW, even if it has a low Power Factor. If it has a low Power Factor, more current is used to make up for the inefficiency. If it has a high Power Factor, less current is used but the same amount of power is used. Most kWH meters only measure kW. On the other hand, if your electricity supplier can measure your Maximum Demand (the peak amount of current over any 15 minute period), you may be charged extra if your Maximum Demand is high. Is this the case in the USA?

Thirdly, you will save a small amount of money if you use Power Factor Correction because equipment will operate more efficiently (intrinsically) even if you are not billed for Maximum Demand. This cost saving is generally unnoticeable.

Fourthly, the device is UL listed but the listing has nothing to do with saving money. See the links below;

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073985315&sequence=1

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073985315&sequence=1

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073747903&sequence=1

People in Thailand have tried to sell similar devices but like Australia, consumers in Thailand are not billed for Maximum Demand & so the money savings are unnoticeable.

The "standard" induction disc Wattmeter cannot measure Power Factor & therefore cannot take into account any inefficiency introduced by Power Factor. It only looks at torque (1) produced by "in phase" current & torque (2) produced by "in phase" supply voltage. A phase difference between the two will cancel each other (ie poor Power Factor). On the other hand, electronic Wattmeters may be able to account for such inefficiencies & therefore charge accordingly.

I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price).


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

I doubt any country bills residential service for anything other than simple Kwh. 

2 of the biggest money-making scams are - selling people devices guaranteed to "save you money" and selling people ideas guaranteed to "get rich quick."


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I doubt any country bills residential service for anything other than simple Kwh.
> 
> 2 of the biggest money-making scams are - selling people devices guaranteed to "save you money" and selling people ideas guaranteed to "get rich quick."


All *doubts* aside, I am still interested to know if US people are billed with or without Maximum Demand.

As I said, this thing is not a gimmick, although I can't see how it can *substantially* save money unless the Maximum Demand method of billing is used *or* electronic kWh meters are used, which may be able to recognise Power Factor inefficiencies.

Whilst speculation & cynicism is healthy, *fact* is the only thing that can tell the difference between a "gimmick" & a real thing.

Like I said, "I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price)."


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

elkangorito said:


> All *doubts* aside, I am still interested to know if US people are billed with or without Maximum Demand.


Residential services are not billed for demand, though I hear some utilities are trying to re-think that position with the advent of tankless electric water heaters, which require a ton of power for comparitively short bursts. 
This can wreck havoc on a distribution system that has 2-20 customers on a transformer. 



> As I said, this thing is not a gimmick, although I can't see how it can *substantially* save money unless the Maximum Demand method of billing is used *or* electronic kWh meters are used, which may be able to recognise Power Factor inefficiencies.
> 
> Whilst speculation & cynicism is healthy, *fact* is the only thing that can tell the difference between a "gimmick" & a real thing.
> 
> Like I said, "I could build the same device for less than US$50.00. Installation would be extra. For $300.00, I wouldn't buy it. Any "sparky" with half a brain could do well from such a device, even if selling it for $100.00 (one third of the price)."


There is so little comparitive motor load on a residential service this device would never save any homeowner money, even if it were free.


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## s0lidgr0und (Nov 24, 2007)

This gadget sounds like the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Save your money by just turning off lights when you're not using them, etc.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Before we get to going overboard here lets not fore go the fact that inductive loads are on the increase in new construction single family dwellings and the power distribution system in the USA has been re-engineering to address the power factor concerns to single family dwellings. Devices similar to the technology of this unit are used to the advantage of many commercial facilities to reduce there costs of energy consumption. So power factor correction is not a gimmick. Your utility has been and will continue to install power factor condition systems to address this increasing inductive load issue in the USA.

Now having said that elkangarito is simply saying that PFC is not a gimmick and will save you in energy costs given the right circumstances. The thing I question with this device is not only its cost and savings claims but that demo was a motor under no load so your reactive power is much less and we also don't know what the total inductive load was on all those panel boards. He has his device connected to them with very small loads showing on that meter of his. He also states this is a unit using capacitors in parallel which is a form of "passive pfc" which essentially only corrects the nonlinearity of a motor inductive load. In other words it is attempting to make the current and voltage waveform more in line with a resistive load and more friendly so to speak with the mains. So your really just doing your part to help the utility. I really would be skeptical that any type of PFC device on our domestic power to single family homes is going to save you any money... not a cent IMO. 

An example where this (PFC) may be cost effective is if your a commercial business under contruction and your business is going to be very power factor critical. Then it will benefit you to engineer hand in hand with the utility for pfc systems that will reduce costs in wire size and transformer size to the utiity , reduce harmonic effects, and use active pfc such as utilizing synchronous motors etc..

No.... I wouldn't buy this thing and if I had some of those power factors he was showing before turning on his device I would be calling my utility to find out what was the deal.

As an added note power factor correction is a complex subject and is not easily addressed in "short form" so some over simplification many very well occur in any explanations that we have here on this thread.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

This whole thing sounds like a spam post or sales pitch vaguely disguised as a question. You guys are promoting the scam without even knowing it.


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## capt2 (Oct 3, 2007)

Joed, 
No scam or spam here. I looked online for feedback, couldn't find any so I asked here. I then threw the brochure away after the first few negative comments. Capt


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

I thought that the demonstration video gave a good example of the effects of poor power factor but it did not demonstrate the usefulness of the device in a normal domestic situation (because it's of no real use). I really think that this device is redundant for domestic use.

There is only one way to effectively correct power factor & this is with a stepped capacitor bank that auto adjusts with the changing P.F.

Oops, almost forgot. There are actually 2 other ways to correct power factor;

1] synchronous motors (as Stubbie said)
2] Active signal injection.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Adjusting power factor is a useless effort in a residential service since the POCO does not bill residential based on PF. You could have the worst power factor ever and the POCO would not penalize you for it. In fact it would save you money.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

But Joe how do you account for all the savings that guy had on his utility bill??...........


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## RichyL (Nov 17, 2007)

Wow this guy saved over 1000 dollars in one month.......28% exceeding all expectations


*I am seeing an average savings of at least 28% per month and I am very happy with the product. Extremely happy actually. As an example, prior to the installation of the Power-Save , my April 2006 electric bill was just over $2700.00. I just received my April 2007 bill in the amount of $1780.00. The product will literally pay for itself in only a few months.*" 
- Mo Sandiq, Owner of Northwest Investment Properties LLC, Woodland, California


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

joed said:


> Adjusting power factor is a useless effort in a residential service since the POCO does not bill residential based on PF. You could have the worst power factor ever and the POCO would not penalize you for it. In fact it would save you money.


Could you please explain how having a low PF can save you money.

Also, I noticed a "Stabilisation Deferral" rate on one of the customers electricity bills. What is this?

Without any further guessing about the metering equipment used at residences or billing methods, there can be no substantial savings by using such a device unless;

1] the energy supplier acknowledges the customers increased PF and/or,
2] the installation is large (high current) with a significant inductive load.
3] the device is able to automatically correct PF to a minimum of 0.8 & constantly maintain this level of correction. This only applies if 1] & 2] are apparent.


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## Dyn'R (Sep 26, 2007)

But Joe how do you account for all the savings that guy had on his utility bill??...........
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My guess..probably used way less energy for a month with sneakyness to show proof of his newly though up marketing scam, ie: the boob probably unplugged his hot water tank for a majority of the time !


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

elkangorito said:


> Could you please explain how having a low PF can save you money.


Because your meter only measure true power(watts). In residential billing there is no consideration or measurment of PF(at least not where I live). The further away for perfect PF(unity or 1) you are the less power the meter can read.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

joed said:


> Because your meter only measure true power(watts). In residential billing there is no consideration or measurment of PF(at least not where I live). The further away for perfect PF(unity or 1) you are the less power the meter can read.


Generally & for example, a 1kW inductive load will try to do 1kW of work. That is, if the PF decreases, the current will increase in an attempt to maintain the required level of work (Ohms Law).

So, a kWH meter will still see 1kW used regardless of the PF & therefore regardless of the line current.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

elkangorito said:


> Generally & for example, a 1kW inductive load will try to do 1kW of work. That is, if the PF decreases, the current will increase in an attempt to maintain the required level of work (Ohms Law).
> 
> So, a kWH meter will still see 1kW used regardless of the PF & therefore regardless of the line current.


If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see more than 1 kw for 1 kw of work.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

spebby said:


> If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see more than 1 kw for 1 kw of work.


Really?

Prove it!......or can't you? I'll even give you time to do a google search.

BTW, "time" means up to 4 hours, so you have plenty of time to come up with an amazing answer.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Power Factor is a unitless ratio of work (real power) / apparent power (volts * amps). For a resistive load the power factor is 1 and work = apparent power. Assuming work is a constant, and the power factor is less than 1, then the volts * amps must be greater than actual work. Since voltage is constant (assuming no voltage drop on feeders) the current increases. A single phase Kwh meter sees the volts * amps.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

spebby said:


> Power Factor is a unitless ratio of work (real power) / apparent power (volts * amps). It is not unitless. For a resistive load the power factor is 1 and work = apparent power & True Power. Assuming work is a constant and the power factor is _*less than*_ 1, then the volts * amps must be greater than actual work. Since voltage is constant (assuming no voltage drop on feeders) the current increases. A single phase Kwh meter sees the volts * amps.


Dear oh deary me!

Let's see, for a given device;

P = E x I x Cos Phi. This formula excludes single phase motor efficiency but is for single phase machines.

For example, a 1kW load is connected to a 250v AC supply (single phase). What is the current at the following Power Factors?

a] unity PF.
b] 0.8 PF.
c] 0.4 PF.

Can you please answer the questions for this 1 kW load?

This is a very simple multiplication and/or division. Not difficult at all.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

My only comment is that power factor *is a unitless ratio*. Look it up. You divide watts by watts you get a unitless number.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

spebby said:


> My only comment is that power factor *is a unitless ratio*. Look it up. You divide watts by watts you get a unitless number.


Power factor is not unitless. If it was unitless, there would be no need for Power Factor at all. True Power & Apparent Power have different uses. Just because something uses lots of Apparent Power doesn't mean that it's wasteful. Then again, Apparent Power is another discussion, much the same same as Reactive Power.
Please make sure you can back up your statements before posting such stuff. In the meantime, please feel free to answer the question in the post above ie what is the current in each given PF?

I gave you the formula...simply apply it.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

What units is a power factor? Is it volts, amps, watts, joules, inches, feet, meters? You insist that it has units, so surely you know the units. What is the units of a cosine?

Yea, I can calculate the current at the meter in each case. And guess what, a) is less than b), and a) and b) are less than c. (assuming the voltage is constant). Exactly what I was saying.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Whether you can calculate the current at each instantaneous phase angle or not, you still haven't answered my question about "current", which was your original question/assumption.

Power Factor is (all sinusoidal & RMS);

1] Volts/Amps.
2] True Power/Apparent Power.
3] Resistance/impedance.

So, how about the motor I posed earlier (in post 26)? Too difficult?
Answers a), b) & c) please.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

I am still waiting for the units of the power factor. Yea, multiplying and dividing is way too difficult for me. 

You made a statement: "Power factor has units. If it was unitless, there would be no need for Power Factor at all." What is the units? Or is that too difficult.

Edit: And if power factor has units, then the cosine has units. And that's preposterous.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

spebby said:


> I am still waiting for the units of the power factor. Yea, multiplying and dividing is way too difficult for me.
> 
> You made a statement: "Power factor has units. If it was unitless, there would be no need for Power Factor at all." What is the units? Or is that too difficult.


BTW, I didn't say it had units but I did say that it was not unitless. Quite simply, Power Factor is Watts. But, what Watts? PF is never unitless. It is simply a matter of attaching the correct power to the correct unit. In your case, attaching the current to the voltage of the unit in question. The problem is the phase angle between the voltage & the current. This is the Power Factor. It can be corrected by a capacitor (if the phaser angle is lagging) but to what degree?

Spebby, earlier you argued that PF will not make a difference. Please tell me/us why & how.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

elkangorito said:


> BTW, I didn't say it had units but I did say that it was not unitless. Quite simply, Power Factor is Watts. But, what Watts? PF is never unitless. It is simply a matter of attaching the correct power to the correct unit. In your case, attaching the current to the voltage of the unit in question. The problem is the phase angle between the voltage & the current. This is the Power Factor. It can be corrected by a capacitor (if the phaser angle is lagging) but to what degree?
> 
> Spebby, earlier you argued that PF will not make a difference. Please tell me/us why & how.


Remember, you said, "If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see more than 1 kw for 1 kw of work."


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

elkangorito, I never said PF would not make a difference. Re-read the statement I made that you quoted:

"If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see *more than 1 kw* for 1 kw of work."

Power Factor is a ratio of two different measures of power. And I am taking about sinusoidal voltages and currents. It much more complex for non-sinusoidal voltages and currents. A ratio of like measures is unitless. watts / watts is unitless which means it does not have a unit of measure. It's similar to a percentage, mathematically.

BTW, I have a B.S. degree in Electrical Engineering (years ago), although I have never worked as an electrical engineer. There is way more money in software.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

My comments in blue.



elkangorito said:


> So, how about the motor I posed earlier (in post 26)? Too difficult?
> Answers a), b) & c) please.


I'm still waiting for the answers. See below for the questions.



spebby said:


> elkangorito, I never said PF would not make a difference. Re-read the statement I made that you quoted:
> 
> "If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see *more than 1 kw* for 1 kw of work."
> 
> ...





elkangorito said:


> For example, a 1kW load is connected to a 250v AC supply (single phase). What is the current at the following Power Factors?
> 
> a] unity PF.
> b] 0.8 PF.
> ...


Since you have a "B.S." degree in electrical engineering, I can't imagine why you would think that a reduced PF would mean a reduced power input for any given appliance. Again, look at the above questions & at least prove that you can answer them. After you have answered them, it should become apparent why a reduced PF does not mean a reduced power input & therefore a reduced power consumption.


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

The meter does not see the power factor of any load. All the meter sees is the increased current of a load with a power factor lower than 1 which means more watts. If I have a motor with a PF of .8 and replace it with a motor with a PF of .9 the meter will see less current and thus less power.

Edit: You are talking in circles. These statements contradict:

"If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see *less than 1 kw* for 1 kw of work."

"it should become apparent why a reduced PF does not mean a reduced power input & therefore a reduced power consumption."


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

spebby said:


> The meter does not see the power factor of any load. All the meter sees is the increased current of a load with a power factor lower than 1 which means more watts. If I have a motor with a PF of .8 and replace it with a motor with a PF of .9 the meter will see less current and thus less power.


This is not true. I shall explain but firstly, I'd like to clarify a point by way of example.
If a single phase 1kW load is connected to a 250v A.C. supply, what is the current flowing at power factors of;

1] unity.
2] 0.8.
3] 0.4.

Answers;
1] 4 Amps.
2] 5 Amps.
3] 10 Amps.

The point I'm trying to make here is that although the current changes according to the power factor, the load still absorbs 1 kW of True Power, which is exactly what induction disc kWH meters measure.

*How do induction disc kWH meters work?
*A single-phase kWH meter is essentially an induction motor, the speed of which is directly proportional to the voltage applied and the *amount of current flowing through it*. The phase displacement of the current, *as well as the magnitude of the current*, is automatically taken into account by the meter. In other words, the power factor influences the speed and the disk rotates with a speed proportional to *true power*. True Power does account for power factor, as in the above example with the motor. True Power = E x I x Cos phi. Please note that the True Power has remained constant whilst the current has increased at lower power factors.
For an induction disc kWH meter, if the power factor is decreased but the current remains the same (did not increase), less rotational torque would be produced onto the disc, which would result in less kW being measured.

These types of meters cannot measure power factor but they do account for variations in power factor up to certain limits.

The long & the short of this energy saving device is that although you will not see any savings at the kWH meter, you will reduce your line current & therefore allow equipment to operate more efficiently. This only applies if the kWH meter is the induction disc type.


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## JohnJ0906 (Mar 18, 2007)

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/507790/PQ2005PQandEMSolutions[1].pdf

This is a paper done by a couple of engineers about power quality solutions and energy savings.

Personally I am skeptical about many of the claims out there.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Why are you assuming True power stays a constant? Why don't you assume apparent power stays a constant?
If you assume apparent power is the constant then the watts is lower with poor power factor.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

joed said:


> Why are you assuming True power stays a constant? Why don't you assume apparent power stays a constant?
> If you assume apparent power is the constant then the watts is lower with poor power factor.


With regards to Apparent Power - for circuits that consist of combinations of resistance & reactance, the product of the line voltage & current do not equal the power consumed & therefore cannot be expressed in Watts. It is expressed in VA. This is for A.C. circuits only.

It must also be noted that Reactive Power (VAR) forms a part of this problem.

With regards to True Power remaining constant, it's simply a matter of Ohms Law as follows (series circuits);
Since a motor has a fixed resistance & a fixed inductive reactance (therefore a fixed Impedance), an applied voltage will cause a current to flow. The only thing that will change this current is a change in the phase angle between itself & the line voltage. In other words, the phasor sum of the voltage drops across the resistive component (copper wire) *&* the reactive component (the inductor), must equal the line voltage (since it remains constant). Changing the reactive component & therefore the voltage dropped across this component by using capacitors or inductors, will change the current but not the True Power. Thus the formulas for Ohms Law & True Power hold true. True Power; P = E x I x Cos phi, *NOT* E x I.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

I just had a thought...why not go through the list of FAQ's as listed in the Power Saver website. Here they are. My comments in blue;

*Frequently Asked Questions.*

*How Does the Power-Save 1200™ Unit Work?*
The Power-Save 1200™ Unit reduces the amount of power drawn from the utility by storing (in its capacitors) otherwise lost electricity (watts) caused by the inductive motors in your home. (Some examples of inductive motors are Air Conditioning units, refrigerators, freezers, washers, dryers, dishwashers, pool pumps, vacuum cleaners, furnace blower motors, fans etc.) The technology applied by the Power-Save 1200™ Unit supplies that stored electricity back to your inductive loads, thus causing you to decrease your *demand* from the utility. If you decrease your *demand* from the utility, your meter slows down, and you use less electricity. The thought is, you’ve already paid for that electricity, why pay for it and waste it when you can pay for it, store it, and reuse it again. This whole process is called power factor optimization.
This is a question I raised before. Are you billed by "demand" or by "kiloWatt hour"? From the responses so far, domestic residences are not billed on "demand".

*What is Power Factor?*
Power factor is the percentage of electricity that’s delivered to your house and used effectively, compared to what is wasted. For example, a 1.0 power factor means that all the electricity that’s being delivered to your home is being used effectively for its purpose. However, most homes in North America today have a .77 power factor or less. This means that 77% of the electricity that is coming thru your meter at your home or business is being used effectively, the other 23% is being wasted by your inductive load. With a low power factor, the utility has to deliver more electricity to do the same work. However, the Power-Save 1200™ increases that power factor in most cases to .97 or .98, thus increasing the effective use of your electricity and lowering your usage.
This is correct.

*Does the Power-Save 1200™ work in any home?*
Yes it does, as long as you have a circuit breaker panel with breaker switches and not the old screw in type fuses, the unit will work on any single-phase electric application for homes.
Generally, "wire" fuses have a Power Factor, albeit generally insignificant at most loads.

*Will the Power-Save 1200™ affect any of my appliances and their normal use?*
No, if anything, your motors will run about 10% cooler, which is good for a motor because heat is the enemy of a motor.
This is correct.

*Is the Power-Save 1200™ tested and approved by independent labs?*
Yes, the Power-Save 1200™ is UL listed and tested, and has also been tested by the University of Santa Clara California’s Electrical Engineering department, of which the results of that test are available on our website. Also, the technology is recognized by the U.S. Department of Energy.
The UL certification does not appear to relate to power savings. On the other hand, the university tests (whatever they are) may relate to power savings. Any university can equate a high Power Factor to the saving of "energy" (not necessarily money).

*How much can I expect to save per month by using the Power-Save 1200™?*
That depends on many factors. The size of your home, the amount of inductive motor load, and the amount you are paying per kilowatt-hour for electricity etc. However, generally speaking users of the product have seen up to 25% in reduced consumption, but the average savings is somewhere in the 15% to 20% range.
You can only save money if you;
1] have an electronic kWh meter that can measure Power Factor, and/or;
2] you are billed against your "demand", which is "current" (Amps) usage.

*How long will it take for the Power-Save 1200™ to pay for itself?*
Generally about 6-12 months, but again, the same factors above apply, some will see sooner (6 months), some will see later (12 months).
This depends upon how you are billed. See above.


*Is the Power-Save 1200™ easy to install?*
We recommend installation by an electrician. The unit comes with complete installation instructions. It installs in about 20-30 minutes.
This sounds correct.

*How long will the Power-Save 1200™ last?*
It has a predicted lifespan of up to 20 years.
This depends upon;
1] the quality of the supply.
2] the amount of load placed upon the Power Save unit.

*Why haven’t I heard of this product until now?*
That’s easy, two words “cost effectiveness”. Up until recently, electric rates throughout America were cheap, costing us 2, 3 or 4 cents per kilowatt-hour. Now, electric rates are 8, 10, 12, 14, and 19 and in some cases New York City is 22 cents per Kwh, and Hawaii is 33.5 cents per Kwh. At the cheaper rates the Power-Save 1200™ didn’t make sense, but at the current rates, it makes all the sense in the world.
A complete load of rubbish. Power Factor Correction has been around for a long time. The reason why domestic residences have not heard about it is because that domestic metering methods have excluded the need for PF correction. I.E. domestic metering methods did not allow for a reduced dollar value due to low Power Factor. In the early days, meters were easily made to run backwards by using a low PF load. These days, this is impossible. Not only this, all modern day induction disc meters will measure True Power accurately because they are the "cash register" for an energy supplier. This means that a low PF will not affect the "cash flow" entirely. As insurance, most energy suppliers impose a standard & fixed penalty to domestic consumers for an "assumed" Power Factor.

*How much does the Power-Save 1200™ cost, and how do I receive it?*
$299.95 plus $15 shipping. We ship the product directly to your door by regular ground shipment, and you should receive it in about 7-10 business days.
I could supply you with the same device for about $50.00 & still be making money. Installation would be extra.

*What About Power-Save 1200™ Surge Protection?*
The Power-Save 1200™ also protects the entire home against power surges. No longer a need for so many surge protectors in the home. The unit provides a broad range of protection for hardwired appliances and most home electronics such as televisions, satellite equipment, entertainment systems, etc. The unit protects from power line surges as well as spikes caused by internal wiring problems, loose connections and fluctuating demand from large motors such as appliances, vacuum cleaners, heating and cooling equipment, etc.
Unless this is a high quality MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) protection, I wouldn't believe this. Also, this MOV must be able to operate within about 20 micro seconds & handle a minimum fault current of about 50 000 Amps to be of any use.

*Is the Power-Save 1200™ Unit Warranted?*
Yes, 5 year Manufacturers Warranty for full replacement. See our website for full details.
No, it is not "warranted". However, correcting the poor English, it is "warranteed" for 5 years.

*Is there a “Money Back Guarantee”?*
Yes, 60-day money back guarantee. If in 60 days, you don’t see reduction in usage on your electric bill, call us and let us know, and we’ll give you details on how to return the unit for a full refund of the purchase price. Installation cost will not be refunded.
I wonder how many people have returned this product?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

It's an AC circuit. Basic Ohms law does not apply. That why they call it VA(volt amps) instead of watts.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Why can't this thread just die?


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## RichyL (Nov 17, 2007)

The utility company charges based on total power consumed
true power is determined by W=ExIxPF. However, where there is evidence of a low power factor such as buildings supplying a lot of highly inductive loads, the power company imposes penalties in thier rate structure. So in some senses even with the powersave device, if you are being penalized you will still be penalized, even though the powersave is increasing your powerfactor, although your bill could still go down based on less energy consumed from the powersave storing the wasted energy and reusing it.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

RichyL said:


> The utility company charges based on total power consumed
> true power is determined by W=ExIxPF. However, where there is evidence of a low power factor such as buildings supplying a lot of highly inductive loads, the power company imposes penalties in thier rate structure. So in some senses even with the powersave device, if you are being penalized you will still be penalized, *even though the powersave is increasing your powerfactor, although your bill could still go down based on less energy consumed from the powersave storing the wasted energy and reusing it.*


Incorrect. Again, your domestic power bill will not change because your kWh meter (induction type) will only measure True Power, which remains constant regardless of the PF. It is the VAR that increases which in turn, increases the VA.

Of course, if you have an electronic kWh meter that can measure the line PF & "demand", you may be billed extra.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

This entire thread is ridiculous and needs to die immediately.

Put a capacitor is parallel with the incoming utility feed and your meter slows to approximately nothing (because residential load is mostly, I DIDN'T SAY ENTIRELY, resistive). It's highly illegal to do so. I imagine that these "energy saving devices" do something similar.

There is no such thing as a frictionless machine either (but perhaps you have a widget that does that too, its benefits can be posted in alt.mechanical.engineering.moron.conversations.for.morons.com.com.com).

This product is either 1.) crap, or, 2.) crap.

Straight up.

I will not post anything additional, as any further discussion is a waste.

TTFN,
Jimmy

_you must be a vendor of this trash. No other reason for so much mindless banter. Try alt.engineering.electrical. They'll be receptive!:laughing: _


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Some interesting links.

http://www.themeterguy.com/Theory/watthour_meter.htm#The%20Meter%20Diagram
Note the last formula at the bottom of the page.

http://www.dansdata.com/danletters171.htm
Scroll down the page to "And you won't even get a thank-you from the power company."

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16598530
Note that "Anonuser" mysteriously disappears on page 6.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=51679

http://www.dansdata.com/gz028.htm

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.e...50045951fa/3574ca76ce0134a4?#3574ca76ce0134a4

http://webpages.charter.net/harkj/maaps/page11.html
Forgot to add this link. Scroll down the page until you get to 
"* Update * 01/DEC/2006".


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## dswartzinator (Nov 11, 2009)

*not quite a gimmick*

this system powersave is not a gimmick but it is not without some serious flaws. first off, the resistance flow which is where the most energy is wasted, can only be estimated and averaged with this device. the capacitors are in most cases overcharged and costing more energy as there is no way for this system to automatically adjust to the different loads throughout the day. In a climate like arizona where the AC is running nonstop, it might show savings maybe up to 15% but it is useless in the midwest due to the varying degrees of peaks in resistance throughout the seasons.

there is only one model out there that will automatically thru the use of relays adjust the capacitance thus optimizing the efficiency thru the house. This devise is also available for commercial applications.

I have copies of a test home's ac bills that show a 53% reduction in energy consumption with this unit on his home. I can email those if you like.

This unit is not cheap, but it is NOT a gimmick either. You will be hearing a lot more about this product in the near future. it is called POWER-CEO. This stands for Power Computerized energy optimizer. I will be happy to share about this if you like


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## dswartzinator (Nov 11, 2009)

you sound angry... and i agree that most of the crap out there is crap.  however, underwriters laboratory and energy star do not certify crap. (by the way... it is NOT illegal to initiate capacitance on the box side of the meter)
powerceo is certified ... I have seen the in and out readings while hooked up and I can testify that this is not CRAP.

Good Day.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not sure who you are talking to as this thread is 2 years old


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## dswartzinator (Nov 11, 2009)

big jimmy


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## NY Jim (Feb 24, 2010)

The "Power Save 1200" sells for $300.00. Without satisfactory results return it within 60 days for a full refund. I've read the return policy. Full refund does not include your shipping or theirs. There is also a 25% restocking charge for returned working products. My guess is you could recover $200.00. Not quite a full refund. Has anyone installed this product and not seen a savings? Has anyone returned it?


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## capt2 (Oct 3, 2007)

Yes this is 2 yrs old topic.
I installed 2 of these. Each gets plugged to an outlet that's connected to one side of the panel bus. Since it plugs in,-- I tested by plugging it into a digital power readout, which I then connected various household motorized appliances.

The Results--No difference in power consumption, nada, zilch, zippo.


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