# Brush marks with Behr paints for Kitchen Cabinets...HELP!!!



## Torquerolljoe (Nov 5, 2007)

I just searched this forum and found out that Behr paints are horrible. A little too late to return it. So, my problem is that my wife and I are trying to repaint the kitchen cabinets in our house. We bought Behr, but no matter how much prep we did, brush marks were horrible!!! The old cabinets were painted with latex, so we thought we would be ok. My question now is, what paint do I purchase to get reduced or no brush marks?? I prefer latex paints as they are easier to clean and does not bother my wife. Also, what primer do you recommend? We have sanded the cabinets and in some spots there is bare wood. I have a Wagner power painter I can use if it will help me get good results, fyi. 

Thanks in advance, Joseph


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## Concordseeker (Aug 5, 2007)

I'm guessing you have two gallons at most. Eat the $30 go to a paint store and get good paint. I used Benjamin Moore primer and gloss paint (Impervex latex enamel) on my kitchen cabinets and it is SO worth the difference. I was amazed by the difference.


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## ron schenker (Jan 15, 2006)

A quality brush is a must. Purdy or Wooster works for me.


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## Torquerolljoe (Nov 5, 2007)

ron schenker said:


> A quality brush is a must. Purdy or Wooster works for me.


We definitely used a Purdy brush. Thanks


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## Torquerolljoe (Nov 5, 2007)

Concordseeker said:


> I'm guessing you have two gallons at most. Eat the $30 go to a paint store and get good paint. I used Benjamin Moore primer and gloss paint (Impervex latex enamel) on my kitchen cabinets and it is SO worth the difference. I was amazed by the difference.


 
Did you brush it on or did you spray it on?? I don't have a problem "eating" the $30 for a better paint. I just want the cabinets to look great. Thanks.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

Sand to smooth out the Behr brush marks
Prime the bare wood with a quality oil-based primer from Ben Moore or Sherwin Williams

Use a Waterborne Enamel to paint
Either Ben Moore's Satin Impervo or Sherwin Williams' Pro Classic
Either one will go on smooth and show few brush marks, and last and protect well


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## sirwired (Jun 22, 2007)

One hint with the acrylic waterbourne enamels that slickshift recommended. Try them out on some scrap first, as they don't go on quite like paint.

I have used ProClassic Waterbourne, and have a couple of hints if that is what you choose:

1) It holds a "wet edge" for about thirty seconds. One stroke to apply, one to back-brush, and then move on. If you overbrush it will look like junk.
2) Whatever you do, do NOT go back to fix up "thin spots". ProClassic looks like junk wet, but it will become more opaque and smoother as it dries. If you try and "touch up" once the enamel tacks up, it will look horrible. If it turns out you did miss a spot, or have a thin one, get it on the next coat.

Despite these quirks, the end result looks great.

SirWired


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## lee polowczuk (Nov 21, 2006)

Sherwin Williams oil based Pro-Classic. Unbelievable stuff. Of course prep is the key. I put on oil based primer and lightly sanded in between. Sanded in between the coat of SW. I know I got a good brush..probably Purdy.

I really like Benjamin Moore, too...


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## Torquerolljoe (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks for all your help. I will try again this weekend after visiting either SW or Benjamin Moore.

Joseph


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## jimc48 (Sep 12, 2007)

sirwired said:


> One hint with the acrylic waterbourne enamels that slickshift recommended. Try them out on some scrap first, as they don't go on quite like paint.
> 
> I have used ProClassic Waterbourne, and have a couple of hints if that is what you choose:
> 
> ...



I read with interest your information on using ProClassic Waterbourne and how it maintains a "wet edge" for only about 30 seconds. I have attempted to repaint our kitchen cabinet doors with BM K&B acrylic satin finish enamel and had all kinds of problems with it (probably the problems were with the painter, not the paint).

Say I have a flat surface 15" wide by 30" long. If I paint a straight strip with a 2-1/2" brush, I can manage to keep painting into a wet edge to the end. But when I go back to paint the second strip, that long edge is no longer wet. If I paint across the panel and then go back to the starting edge, the wet edges are gone. How to handle such a project? I have tried rolling with a 4" roller and a foam pad - ended up with a rough finish; tried with a fabric roller with low nap and again ended up with a rough surface. So I'm stymied for now. 

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Jim


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

For any of the waterborne paints adding Floetrol will greatly add to the open time and extend the wet time


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## 1655graff (Jul 27, 2007)

sirwired said:


> I have used ProClassic Waterbourne, and have a couple of hints if that is what you choose:
> 
> 1) It holds a "wet edge" for about thirty seconds. One stroke to apply, one to back-brush, and then move on. If you overbrush it will look like junk....
> SirWired


What is "back-brush"? How do you do it well? How should one not do it?

Thank you and Please forgive my ignorance.:thumbsup:


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## 1655graff (Jul 27, 2007)

lee polowczuk said:


> I put on oil based primer and lightly sanded in between. Sanded in between the coat...


*And, here's my 3rd newbie question:* What grit of sandpaper? and How do you ensure it is "lightly"? -- e.g., Do it by hand? ...with sanding sponge? ...with very light touch/pressure using an orbital sander? or a square one?

FYI: My 3 newbie questions are:
1) the same as jimc
2) my 1st post
3) this post

Again, TIA:thumbup:


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## sirwired (Jun 22, 2007)

1655graff said:


> What is "back-brush"? How do you do it well? How should one not do it?
> 
> Thank you and Please forgive my ignorance.:thumbsup:


Back-brush, meaning, apply the paint with one stroke, go back over with another stroke, and then move on. If you keep brushing the same spot over and over, you will end up with brush marks dug into your paint. Instead, of brushing over and over, you need to rely on the great leveling properties of the paint.

SirWired


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## tubguy (Nov 10, 2007)

Make sure that you are loading the paint brush with enough paint. One problem that I have seen is after you dip the good quality brush in the paint then you take the brush and wipe both sides of the brush against the can thus removing all but a little of the paint. Dip the brush into the can and then apply the paint to your surface. adjust how much paint on the brush by how deep you stick the brush into the paint.
Hope this helps

Mike


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## tverhoef (Feb 24, 2008)

just get yourself a product called "floetrol" It's a paint conditioner, Pour a bit in your paint before you start your job It's designed to work with the paint and not break down the pigment like water would do. 
It allows you to work the paint longer, keeps the paint from setting up so fast and makes the paint almost self leveling so you don't have the ropey effect that your describing


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## clmasse (Mar 4, 2008)

Torquerolljoe said:


> I just searched this forum and found out that Behr paints are horrible. A little too late to return it. So, my problem is that my wife and I are trying to repaint the kitchen cabinets in our house. We bought Behr, but no matter how much prep we did, brush marks were horrible!!! The old cabinets were painted with latex, so we thought we would be ok. My question now is, what paint do I purchase to get reduced or no brush marks?? I prefer latex paints as they are easier to clean and does not bother my wife. Also, what primer do you recommend? We have sanded the cabinets and in some spots there is bare wood. I have a Wagner power painter I can use if it will help me get good results, fyi.
> 
> Thanks in advance, Joseph


Joseph, 

I usually catch my customers buying the cheaper brushes. Sometimes it is hard to convince them to buy the purdy or performance select gold brushes cause of the price. I take the time to explain the difference of the brushes. my customers alway leave with purdy or performance gold brushes. Using your Wagner painter make sure to use Floetrol with the primer and paint. Advantage to using floetrol product is, Less pressure in the pump, and more uniform pattern of application of product(s). Primer I still recommend Behr #75 primer. # 75 primer has a higher amount of solids than other primers for a better hide. paint I recommend 3050 (Semi gloss) in the "swiss coffee" formula. 

Also it would be nice to know if you used HI Gloss, Semi Gloss, Sateen lusture/ kitchen &bath, or satin? Which color did you use too please?

Clmasse


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## Handyman50 (Sep 28, 2007)

ron schenker said:


> A quality brush is a must. Purdy or Wooster works for me.


I like Purdy and Wooster brushes allot. I have several of each. I buy the pro quality, however. The main thing is to clean them thoroughly after each time you paint.

Also, we always use "Floetrol" in our latex paint to make it flow better. We get paint sprayer quality with a brush.:thumbsup: NO brush marks! This may be an amateur way to do it, but it works. I always say that the outcome is most important.


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## Pawl (Mar 5, 2008)

Slickshift,
are you saying you can prime with an SW oil primer and then finish with the SW Pro Classic waterborne interior acrylic semi gloss? I bought pre hung doors that are primered probably with latex. Do you still recommend primimg them with oil first or just paint over the primer the manufacturer sprayed on them? I also had the problem of the paint setting up to fast with the Pro classic with Floetrol added. I didn't just let it go and fix it the 2nd coat. Thanks for the tip. I used a small 4" wide mini roller to paint 90% of the door.I like the finished look it presents.


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## joewho (Nov 1, 2006)

If the door panels are flat, use a brush on the surrounding trim and a mini roller on the flats. With pro classic, the mohair mini will give you as smooth a finish as you'll get without spraying.

A couple of tips for the diy'er. Get the floetrol, it helps extend working time, but not a whole lot.
Use underbody or shellac based primer. This will lock out the paint causing it to "sit" on top of the primer and take longer to dry. This and floetrol will get you in the ballpark you need to be in for a nice finish.


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## Pawl (Mar 5, 2008)

Joewho,
I followed the Floetrol directions and put 8 ounces into the gallon of Pro Classic. Are you saying I need to primer over the primer that comes with the door when I purchased it? If so when you say underbody and shellac primer could you expand on more what they are and how they work so well. Thanks


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

An enamel underbody is just that, a primer that sets up perfectly for enamel
I couldn't tell you th science behind it, but it is a higher build primer, making the topcoats smoother, and is better at sealing to keep a level surface as the enamel dries for a smoother look

As the factory primers usually aren't particularly good, I'd suggest priming anyway
But for the best possible enamel finish, or every possible advantage you can get, yes...prime the factory primer with an underbody


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## joewho (Nov 1, 2006)

Pawl said:


> Joewho,
> I followed the Floetrol directions and put 8 ounces into the gallon of Pro Classic. Are you saying I need to primer over the primer that comes with the door when I purchased it? If so when you say underbody and shellac primer could you expand on more what they are and how they work so well. Thanks


I'm not saying you "need" to. If the floetrol is working, great.

Shellac doesn't breath, it seals out the ability of the primer to absorb water from the paint. I've always considered underbody to do the same thing, but I'd have to do research to know if it completely seals. But the principle is the same. Zinsser Bin is shellac, I think. If it thins with denatured alcohol it's shellac. There are waterbased underbodys, check with SW or BM. If you decide to use WB underbody, get a good one. 

Pre-primed will absorb some of the h20 from the paint, making it dry faster. And it gets "sticky" quicker, we call this "drag" when the brush doesn't move smoothly. Floetrol helps with this a lot.

This was just a tip to give you a longer working time and drying time. Slower drying means the paint can flow out and make brush/roller marks disappear.

There are several other ways to do this, this advice is geared towards diy, but with pro results.
Hope this is useful.


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## 1655graff (Jul 27, 2007)

We just completed painting our 1956-constructed oak kitchen cabinets. Our goals were:
1) make them contemporary looking.
2) using them to lighten up the room, not darken it.

1st goal meant: 
-- getting rid of the oak grain and dark shellac on them.
-- giving them as smooth of a paint finish as we could.
-- changing out the old, exposed hinges for hidden, euro ones
-- changing out the old 3" holes for metric-sized ones of the new pull handles.

Someone here recommended and we "test painted" several scrap doors and frames with SW, BM, Kelly-Moore (a local brand), and other paints we 'd been recommended to try. It worked well for us so, I'd recommended that you test paint so you can see and decide for yourself:
(a) how you want to paint the cabinets, 
(b) which products you will want to use, and 
(c) practice your technique.
And even, (d) getting to know you local paint shops, and their personality (including helpfulness or not).

For our oak cabinets, when we test-painted, we were hoping to get by with but found we were NOT happy with merely 2 coats since the grain was still "there" and we wanted a more modern, if not even slick, look. Our tests also led us to using:
-- Zinnser's BIN -- especially for trouble spots (where ancient, deep grease seemed to ooze despite multiple cleanings including with mineral oil and TSP), 
-- waterborne paste filler to fill the deep oak grains (another recommendation we got from someone here), and 
-- an oil-based undercoat designed to work with our topcoat.

Finally, we opted for, based on out test paint results, sponge rollers for the top coats and not using Floetrol. We simply did not find it worth the extra work as we got to know the paints themselves.

Results will vary, and getting it right for you will be something you learn/decide through practice so don't be afraid to do so.

hope this helps.:thumbsup:


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## GurnetPoint (Jun 12, 2011)

Maybe I overlooked an answer on "How to paint without leaving brush strokes". I'm painting a handrail at the top of stairs and do not want to have brush marks in between balusters or on the fir top plate. Any suggestions. I have seen at church, the columns in the auditorium without any brush marks on them. What is the big secret?


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

GurnetPoint said:


> Maybe I overlooked an answer on "How to paint without leaving brush strokes". I'm painting a handrail at the top of stairs and do not want to have brush marks in between balusters or on the fir top plate. Any suggestions. I have seen at church, the columns in the auditorium without any brush marks on them. What is the big secret?


You might want to do this as a post about brush strokes and separate it from Behr paint.

Oil based finishes used to be preferred because they left fewer brush strokes. Most of this had to do with the drying time of the paint and its leveling properties.

You can achieve nice, mirror like, surfaces with quality latex paint too but as mentioned a conditioner that improves the leveling properties and slows the drying time a bit will be helpful.

Of course with whatever approach or paint you use? A good quality trim brush is mandatory.


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