# Cutting joists for attic ladder



## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

I have a newly built garage with ceiling joists set 16" on center. The attic ladder is 25" wide, so one joist will need to be partly removed. 

I've read elsewhere that I will need to "double up" on the joists around the attic opening. Can someone explain this in a little detail? Will the two joists to beside the attic ladder have to be doubled up all the way across?

thanks


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

sheslostcontrol said:


> I have a newly built garage with ceiling joists set 16" on center. The attic ladder is 25" wide, so one joist will need to be partly removed.
> 
> I've read elsewhere that I will need to "double up" on the joists around the attic opening. Can someone explain this in a little detail? Will the two joists to beside the attic ladder have to be doubled up all the way across?
> 
> thanks


Is the garage attached to your house?


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

It is detached.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

I have a scuttle hole for my attic in my house, that they just framed between the joists (16" on center). As for yours, since you are wanting stairs, and wanting to cut one rafter, my first question are these trusses, or 2x6 joists with 2x6's for the roof. If trusses, cutting one will mess up the integrity of the truss system.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I double up the joists around most skylights
This pic shows the framing members doubled
How to frame it all depends upon your joist sizes, spans, loads etc


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> I have a scuttle hole for my attic in my house, that they just framed between the joists (16" on center). As for yours, since you are wanting stairs, and wanting to cut one rafter, my first question are these trusses, or 2x6 joists with 2x6's for the roof. If trusses, cutting one will mess up the integrity of the truss system.


The joists are 2x10's.. no trusses.. here is a pic from my cell:


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

ScubaDave has shown the way.

Now lets wait to hear from Joe.


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

While waiting for Joe..

If this is what I need to do, I have a problem.. the joists are 18' long. I have a 8' ceiling and there is very little room in the attic area to swing boards into place. Can I double up one joist by using two shorter boards?


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

This is a garage right, why can't they be brought in from below and put in place on the bias.


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

It's a two story garage, I'm working on the upper level which is 12' above ground level. I'm not sure how I'd get the long stick of wood inside the room I'm working in. 










Some more pics of the attic area.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Up the stairwell, through the window. Have you already put siding up on the structure? Need a picture of now, not the in building process.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't see why you couldn't use shorter length lumber to sister the joists as the goal of this is to increase cross sectional area of the joist's parrallel to the openning. 

I would ensure that the butt splice was not were the openning for the ladder ends up.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

you are only talking about maybe four 8 footers, and a couple of 3-4 footers, so I do not see why the OP is stating they can't take lumber upstairs. Usually something like this is done during the framing stage, not after it is done. It is like building a house, not putting a door or stairs in, and going "Well, this is a fine kettle of fish. How do we get upstairs or enter & exit the house." Even better like building a house, and not putting any plumbing or electrical in after finish work is done.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

*R502.10 Framing of openings.* Openings in floor framing shall be framed with a header and trimmer joists. When the header joist span* does not exceed 4 feet* (1219 mm), the header joist may be a* single member *the same size as the floor joist. *Single trimmer joists *may be used to carry a single header joist that is located within 3 feet (914 mm) of the trimmer joist bearing. When the header joist span exceeds 4 feet (1219 mm), the trimmer joists and the header joist shall be doubled and of sufficient cross section to support the floor joists framing into the header. _Approved_ hangers shall be used for the header joist to trimmer joist connections when the header joist span exceeds 6 feet (1829 mm). Tail joists over 12 feet (3658 mm) long shall be supported at the header by framing anchors or on ledger strips not less than 2 inches by 2 inches (51 mm by 51 mm). http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec002_par031.htm
I see a lot of questionable framing procedures there, are you getting it inspected?


Gary


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> I see a lot of questionable framing procedures there, are you getting it inspected?
> Gary


The garage was built last spring, it was permitted, rough and final inspections passed without issue. The lower area looks pretty stout (2x6 studs).. the upper area doesn't look as strongly built. But it checked out per city inspector.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The rafters are sitting on the ceiling joists rather than sitting next to them. Your rafters are not nailed directly to the ceiling joists, forming a “truss”, rather the rafter is above the joist, page #11; http://www.nibs.org/client/assets/files/bssc/Chapter6final.pdf At least you have a rim joist preventing rotation. 
Read about the spreading forces and the required continuous ceiling joists/rafter ties face nailed to prevent this on page 93. Notice the chart on page 94, if you had a 24’ span (5/12 cut) with 50# snow load, it would require *8*- 16d sinker nails (face nailed) at each rafter/joist joint to withstand the forces there. http://www.ce.udel.edu/courses/CIEG407/Class_17/Wood Chapter 23 - IBC.pdf 
Only the rafter* toe-nail fasteners* to the flat 2x4 (and it’s nails) are keeping your rafters from coming down or pushing off the plate *without *the help of the side-nailed ceiling joist nails ( 8 x 93# = 744# of shear) The roof sheathing would help some, though I am not a structural engineer. If the B.D. passed it, good to go….. 

The purlins and struts installed are not effective bearing on individual joists. (The purlins are laid flat rather than on edge and required to be the same thickness as the rafters). There should be a wall below for bearing. The snow load will be concentrated on the individual joists the struts are placed on. Even if the struts were bearing on a strongback over the joists, it would be ineffective and lead to ceiling finish (drywall tape) cracks or binding doors- read pp.39; http://books.google.com/books?id=iw...age&q=heel or toe bearing with rafter&f=false
You may not need the struts (I doubt you need them), depending on the span, ask your B.D. Or check your rafter ink stamp for the species and grade, find your ground snow load (Google), compare to the proper Table; http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_sec002_par023.htm
If the B.D. passed it, good to go….

The ridge supports and possibly the collar ties are not required, either. The ply-clips are for OSB spanning 24” on center. (Not required, but stronger). 

The OSB on the front wall for shear flow is less than I have seen, but if it passed, great. I’m in a seismic zone, Codes are more strict here….We would require 2x blocking between rafters, nailed every 6” through the roof sheathing for diaphragm shear. Especially the left side of the garage, for a two story- 24” wide minimum or hold-downs required; Figure 6 (c); http://www.xpsa.com/tech/FSC Bracing_Techniques_How to Guide_v1.2 FINAL.pdf If it passed, good to go.

I may have you worried for nothing, maybe one of our resident Engineers will chime in………..
I may not be seeing everything clearly, also, lol. 

Gary


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> Even better like building a house, and not putting any plumbing or electrical in after finish work is done.



Thanks for the memory....

I got a call from a client saying his house was broken into during construction and they stole all of his Copper Piping. I explained that is not a problem but, he needs to understand that we were finished our job and had the inspection so if he wanted us to redo the work we would need to bill him again. He yells for about 30 minutes and then calls his insurance company who set up an appointment in 2 weeks. The Home owner never told the drywall guys and they had all the Rock hung in that house in less than a week! No Plumbing in the House but the Rock was Hung! Insurance paid for the Plumbing but not the drywall


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

GBR the top paragraph sound dire. Short of tearing off the roof and rebuilding how would I increase strength on what's already there?


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

By Purlin & Strut are you referring to the flat blocks above the wall in this pic: 










I may have misunderstood, I thought these were supposed to lie flat for side to side partition wall strength. Can I add additional blocks and lay them vertically beside the existing blocks? The wall didn't exist before, so it is not load bearing.


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## General (Dec 11, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> The rafters are sitting on the ceiling joists rather than sitting next to them.


That's the way my house was built 50 years ago. That's also the way MANY houses around here are built. As an electrician, I notice this extra height when snaking a wire down the exterior wall, it's definitely nice to have that room for your body and for the drill.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Page #8, your choice.....every 4' apart. Notice also the purlins in that article.
http://www.apexhomeinspections.biz/articles/framing%20guidelines.pdf

Gary


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

I hope this is strong enough.. I won't be carrying more than 20-30lbs up the stairs (rated at 350#) but wanted to over build it just in case.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Nice job, thanks for the follow-up pics


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## mel_kissmygrits (May 22, 2010)

Here are a couple pics of the header plate & rafters. I've had a couple guys come by and look at it. One said it looked basically fine but could use strengthening up, the other said it wouldn't fall apart tomorrow, but would start to pull apart over time. 

Both suggested adding hurricane straps attaching the rafter to the header plate. 




























Makes me furious that the builder didn't do this while building the shop. I would have gladly paid extra had he just told me.


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