# Hot tub breaker tripping



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> We just bought a used hot tub (6 year old Jacuzzi Triton) and the seller gave us the 50 amp GFCI breaker with it. We had a friend electrician do all the electrical work, which included running 6/3 and installing the 50 amp GFCI.
> 
> Since everything was installed the hot tub works fine most of the time but will occasionally trip the GFCI after using the hot tub for 20-40 minutes. It has not tripped during the day when not in use, just heating. Our friend said it could be that the GFCI is old and starting to fail.
> 
> ...


Where is the tub installed? Outside?

Is this 6/3 you installed a Romex style cable where all of the wires are together in a bundle with a rubber style jacket around it?

Jamie


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

The tub is installed outside and yes the wiring is a Romex style with 3 + ground in a jacket.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> The tub is installed outside and yes the wiring is a Romex style with 3 + ground in a jacket.


This is illegal and unsafe. You really need to start from scratch on this. To start with, the romex style cable can not be used to feed a outdoor hot tub for multiple reasons. I cited the code below.

Unless you really want to take the time to learn how to do this, now is the time to call someone in that is licensed.

A permit is almost always required for this type of installation, and a install done in the fashion your is done would have never passed inspection.

There is no way to know what else is wired wrong, your lucky the breaker tripped any no one died.

Jamie

Part 680.25 of the National electrical code:

(A) ,Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rig
met~l conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight, fle
ible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic condu
Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where install
on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubi
shall be permitted where installed within a building.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

Jamie,
Let me add a little info. The romex is run in EMT conduit from the main box into the attic and out of the attic to the exterior of the house to the disconnect box. In the attic it is not in conduit.

Sorry I was not specific on this.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

TahoeTexan said:


> Jamie,
> Let me add a little info. The romex is run in EMT conduit from the main box into the attic and out of the attic to the exterior of the house to the disconnect box. In the attic it is not in conduit.
> 
> Sorry I was not specific on this.


Still not a code compliant setup. Does this have two pump motors?


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> Jamie,
> Let me add a little info. The romex is run in EMT conduit from the main box into the attic and out of the attic to the exterior of the house to the disconnect box. In the attic it is not in conduit.
> 
> Sorry I was not specific on this.


Is the conduit outside at all? You can never run romex in conduit outside of the house. If the emt goes past the house at all, it can't me used to feed a hot tub. Also you can't use romex for a outdoor hot tub because it does not have an insulated ground wire, which is required also.

How large of EMT did he use? I bet youd have to use atleast 1" to cram 6-3 romex in it. With the expense and install time of 1" EMT, I can't belive they didn't just run all conduit and pull single strand wires as they should have.

Jamie


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> will occasionally trip the GFCI after using the hot tub for 20-40 minutes.
> With steady current draw this seems a long time for a breaker at its limit to trip. Look for a pattern with the "occasionally."
> 
> It has not tripped during the day when not in use, just heating.
> ...


You probably need to monitor current draw and leakage current, if you want to avoid "troubleshooting by replacing" parts. 
If you can reliably induce the fault you have a better chance of fixing it.

So, heating and tripping are correlated. For troubleshooting purposes can you increase the load during heating and see if the trip time decreases?

You have elec. specs on this tub, or a link? Photos might help, also.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys. When I get home I will look at the materials receipt to confirm the wire type.

It sounds like I should bring in a licensed electrician. Trying to save money, would it be possible to use the conduit that's in place and have the electrician run single strand following the current path? It's about a 100' run, with ~20' being conduit.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> Thanks for the info guys. When I get home I will look at the materials receipt to confirm the wire type.
> 
> It sounds like I should bring in a licensed electrician. Trying to save money, would it be possible to use the conduit that's in place and have the electrician run single strand following the current path? It's about a 100' run, with ~20' being conduit.


It's possible that conduit can be used. 3/4" conduit can be run for the entire job and 6 gage single strand thhn/thxn should be run, 4 wires total. 

for the inside work 3/4" EMT only sells for about $4 per 10 feet. But the cost is in the installation. For a tub, you really want this to be done right. They have these rules for a reason, and a lot of times that reason is because people have been hurt or killed in the past when things are done wrong.

For your families safety, you really want to go over your options with a licensed person, and insist on a PERMIT. 

Jamie


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> It sounds like I should bring in a licensed electrician.


Troubleshoot what you can, first. The problem may be in the tub, not the supply, so check the Web for recalls, etc., for your make, model and your symptoms.

I've seen a lot of forum posts where the tech said "Trouble Not Found." Get his instrument readings in writing.

You may get a whole new, safe, setup that doesn't touch your symptoms. Or, the symptoms disappear for a week or a month and then return. That's why the service contract says "furnish and install"; it doesn't say "we promise to fix."


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

jamiedolan said:


> For a tub, you really want this to be done right. They have these rules for a reason, and a lot of times that reason is because people have been hurt or killed in the past when things are done wrong.


I totally agree with you. We have two kids and for all our safety I want it done right. I was under the impression the friend that did the work knew what he was doing. Lesson learned!


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Troubleshoot what you can, first. The problem may be in the tub, not the supply, so check the Web for recalls, etc., for your make, model and your symptoms.
> 
> I've seen a lot of forum posts where the tech said "Trouble Not Found." Get his instrument readings in writing.
> 
> The worst outcome is a whole new setup and it doesn't touch your symptoms. Or, the symptoms disappear for a week or a month and then return.


Those are good things to check out, but she still needs a legal setup for the wiring.

Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

TahoeTexan said:


> Thanks for the info guys. When I get home I will look at the materials receipt to confirm the wire type.
> 
> It sounds like I should bring in a licensed electrician. Trying to save money, would it be possible to use the conduit that's in place and have the electrician run single strand following the current path? It's about a 100' run, with ~20' being conduit.


Is it only 20' outside?

If so I'm curious if its to code to put a disconnect on the outside of the house & use the existing romex to that disconnect. Then run conduit the rest of the way?

680.42 is for hot tubs
(C) seems to indicate you can use the romex for inside wiring?


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, you can make joints in the attic, (in a box of course) and change over to an insulated ground and PVC conduit.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> Those are good things to check out, but she still needs a legal setup for the wiring.
> 
> Jamie


Agreed. When the tech leaves everything should be safe, legal, good practice, and functioning.

I just hope the new wiring doesn't make it harder to find a problem with the tub, if there is one. 
I'd feel better about this if the use of the current setup could be logically linked to the tub problem. Maybe it can, I don't know.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Agreed. When the tech leaves everything should be safe, legal, good practice, and functioning.
> 
> I just hope the new wiring doesn't make it harder to find a problem with the tub, if there is one.
> I'd feel better about this if the use of the current setup could be logically linked to the tub problem. Maybe it can, I don't know.


Yes, I understand your point, I am just reluctant to send someone in the direction of repairing a system that is wired wrong. They may be very tempted to leave it setup wrong if it works again...

Jamie


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Did the "electrician" install a disconnect? If not, you may want to look into something like this for it.
http://www.spaspecialist.com/Mercha...SSIWS&Product_Code=GFCI50A&Category_Code=GFCI


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

jerryh3 said:


> Did the "electrician" install a disconnect? If not, you may want to look into something like this for it.
> http://www.spaspecialist.com/Mercha...SSIWS&Product_Code=GFCI50A&Category_Code=GFCI


Yes, there is a disconnect installed. I will post pictures of the install later today.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

TahoeTexan said:


> Yes, there is a disconnect installed. I will post pictures of the install later today.


At least that part is right, hopefully.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Guys I think we need to establish if we have a feeder or not. So the first question should have been where is the 50 amp gfci located. If it is located in the main panel and the disconnect by the spa is not a fused/circuit breaker disconnect THEN THERE IS NO FEEDER and any wiring method of chapter three can be used all the way to the disconnect including romex as long as it stays inside.. then you may use a conduit method from the disconnect to the spa control panel. If the spa is a self contained or packaged unit with intergral gfci then no gfci is required in the supply.
Many spas are self contained or packaged with gfci so you need to check.

It sounds like romex is in emt on the exterior of the house and that is a code violation. If this isn't a feeder it would be ok up to the point of exiting the house into the emt.

The op's question is why is his gfci breaker tripping and it is only tripping on call for heat at the heater element. It's most likely a failing element (easily replaced) for around 100 to 200 bucks. They look like this...









That's not a for certain you would want to turn the heater off at the control panel. Check all the wiring make sure of the connections and any corrosion. Corrosion is a killer of spas. You can even ohm out the element if you want. If the gfci is tripping after you check those things and turn the heater back on then you either have a failing element or moisture on the wiring from a leak or something that is signaling the gfci to trip. Luminaires are also a gfci tripping cause. I doubt the gfci is bad or supply wiring cause it only trips when the spa is heating and not instantly when it calls for heat. You should turn off loads at the spa control panel and isolate the load that is on when tripping the gfci then you have pinned down what you need to look at.

My point is it isn't whether or not his install is necessarily compliant... that doesn't trip gfci's. It's fine to point these things out but it isn't helping with the cause. If you ran romex all the way to the spa that doesn't trip a gfci when it only trips on a call for heat. It's not the romex it is something most likely to do with the heater circuit.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for getting us back on track. If the element was leaking to ground, wouldn't the GFCI trip at random times and not just during use? The element should go off and on all of time to maintain a minimum water temp.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

jerryh3 said:


> Thanks for getting us back on track. If the element was leaking to ground, wouldn't the GFCI trip at random times and not just during use? The element should go off and on all of time to maintain a minimum water temp.


I'm not real clear what exactly the situation is...the element is thermostatically controlled, as your saying, and what is meant by tripping only when used isn't real clear. It sounds like it takes a while for the unit to trip out the gfci even when it's heating...several minutes sometimes. so I'm not clear if it is a random problem or not. If it is a 240 volt spa with 120 volt loads (not clear on that either) then it could be some other things).

Most likely this probably should be looked at by a spa technician.. who if he is any good will find the problem very quickly. 

Probably not for the average DIY to figure this problem out IMO.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for getting back on topic. I WILL attend to the installation issues, but I also need to figure out the tripping problem.

Is it possible that the GFCI is wearing out (this does not sound right to me) or is it much more feasible that something is tripping it. What has me stumped is that it seems to trip randomly rather than specifically when something powers up.

The GFCI trips at random times, so far not during "non-use" times like during the day when it still heats and circulates water. It has only tripped after we having been using (ie running the jets, bubbles, etc.) it for 30 minutes or so.

It is 240v, I believe with 120v loads (two motors for jets and a stereo).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Is the GFCI in the main panel or the disconnect?
I saw a tub wired that had the tub neutral going to the neutral bar instead of the GFCI breaker. It would trip in maybe 15-30 minutes like you say
Easiest fix I ever did


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> Thanks for getting back on topic. I WILL attend to the installation issues, but I also need to figure out the tripping problem.
> 
> Is it possible that the GFCI is wearing out (this does not sound right to me) or is it much more feasible that something is tripping it. What has me stumped is that it seems to trip randomly rather than specifically when something powers up.
> 
> ...


GFCI breakers can go bad, but I would rule out other problems first.

Have a look at the name plate on the motor and tell us what it says, that will clarify if were dealing with straight 240 or 240/120. I think it is 240/120 since you have a stereo.

Water could be getting onto terminals or connections and causing a fault. 

Where is the GFCI breaker? Is it outside by the tub or inside at the main panel?

Getting as detailed of photos as possible would help us steer you in the right direction. It very well maybe a spa issue, but imo, we should atleast consider things like bad connections / water or moisture getting where it shouldn't that are causing an intermitent problem like this. 

To me, water / moisture where it should not be is a better explaination of intermitent problems than a failed element. I think if the element was gone as others have mentioned, that it would fault right away when the heater turns on. 

Is there only one feed to this tub? The romex is the only thing feeding it correct? No other seperate 120v feed to the tub?

Jamie


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Is the GFCI in the main panel or the disconnect?
> I saw a tub wired that had the tub neutral going to the neutral bar instead of the GFCI breaker. It would trip in maybe 15-30 minutes like you say
> Easiest fix I ever did


The GFCI is in the disconnect, outside the tub, about 6' from the tub on the exterior wall of the house.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> It would trip in maybe 15-30 minutes like you say


Why does it wait so long?
Why not shorter, or longer?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Why does it wait so long?
> Why not shorter, or longer?


No idea
Since after looking at the wiring I found the problem I wasn't interested in any further investigation

And we wanted to use the tub


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> No idea
> Since after looking at the wiring I found the problem I wasn't interested in any further investigation


Kinda like the the reason something's always in the last place you look 'cause after you find it, you stop looking.:thumbsup:


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

*Finally...Pictures*

I finally got a chance to take pictures of everything. Please comments to:


Potential things that could be causing the GFCI to trip
Things that need to be changed to get the wiring safe and to code
Thanks for all the help you guys are offering.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

*A few more...*

I took a picture of the motor but if it unreadable, it is labeled 240v, 1 phz.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Just my wild guess, but it looks like the white wire from the gfci is connected to the terminal strip, then goes straight to the bonded section of the tub.
I say you have a neutral to ground connection

Of course I can not read the diagram.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

jbfan said:


> Just my wild guess, but it looks like the white wire from the gfci is connected to the terminal strip, then goes straight to the bonded section of the tub.
> I say you have a neutral to ground connection
> 
> Of course I can not read the diagram.


I bet it is tripping when the tub tries to use a 120v load, line to neutral. 

Is there a light? a Separate pump for bubbles?

Jamie


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

If this is a Sparta Triton spa 6 person made in the USA by Thermspas it is a 240 volt only spa and the neutral (white) from the gfci to the spa is not needed. .
I agree with Jbfan that the neutral is connected to ground (green wire to the chassis from the terminal strip.) 

If this is the spa you have then disconnect the white at the terminal strip and cap it and you should be good to go.

EDIT: See next post as I am not sure the gfci is wired correctly.

http://www.servicemypool.com/spas.html


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I just wanted to comment that I would find it suprising that the bare ground would be ran out of the control box through that side hole and terminated to the bonding ground bar. This is fine but I don't think that was the intention of the manufacturer. Usually a grounding lug or terminal strip position is provided as soon as the supply wires enter the control box. So my thought would be that the bare ground in the supply would connect where the white is connected in the picture if that green wire is terminated to the terminal strip where it appears to be. 

The white neutral from the disconnect ... if it is indeed needed.... should be connected across from a factory connected white neutral... not a green ground wire.... And I do not see that on the terminal strip.
If there is no position on the terminal strip that is labeled 'neutral' or 'N' then I would say it isn't needed. 

I also see another potential problem.....I would like to see a better picture of the neutral (white) terminations in the disconnect box. It almost looks like the gfci neutral pigtail is connected with the bare grounds at the disconnects ground bar which would also be incorrect....just cannot see it good enough.


Can you tell us what the labeling is behind the wires on the terminal strip ?


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Heres my 2 cents, I wouldnt let your friend do any more work for you.

He used NM outside, (not allowed) He miswired that tub, its a straight 240v tub, no neutral conductor required,But landed it at the grounding location. Then he landed the grounding conductor at the bonding location.

And the disconnect GFCI breaker is miswired. Looks to me that all the grounded and grounding connections tie together.

One more thing, that disconnect looks pretty darn close to within 5' of the tub. 

Easy solutuion for ya, call someone that knows something about electricity and codes.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Chris

Yeah... I had time today to take a closer look at things and I don't think there is any doubt the gfci pigtail is connected to the ground bar at the disconnect.
There are no neutral connections at the terminal block so I think it is pretty certain that is not needed. 

I was surprised though that the Op said it will run for 20 to 40 minutes before tripping the gfci. It looks to me that it would trip almost instantly when a pump or other load comes on line.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Hello Chris
> 
> Yeah... I had time today to take a closer look at things and I don't think there is any doubt the gfci pigtail is connected to the ground bar at the disconnect.
> There are no neutral connections at the terminal block so I think it is pretty certain that is not needed.
> ...


I guess I would have to actually be there, but IMO that GFCI should trip instantly!

Oh, and for what its worth to the OP, the installer did a nice job on the EMT install...  Too bad the rest is not so great.

Also, you need a bonding grid installed under that tub as well. Good luck!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yep I agree, he just didn't consider codes and was confused on the gfci connections and what to do with the neutral.....

It just amazes me how many people consider neutral and ground one and the same.

Around here they would not have allowed that liquidtight ran across the walkway exposed.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Around here they would not have allowed that liquidtight ran across the walkway exposed.


That would probably be allowed around here, but I would have used SCH 80 PVC.


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

He did a lot better than this one we're working on now (waiting for new motor). Btw, the deck guy wired it.

Here goes: Customer calls and says the "pool guy" got shocked with the "power off" and wanted us to come check it.

Opened the panel, red & white on the breaker, black on neutral. 

Then at the GFCI disconnect, white and black on the lugs feeding it, reds wire nutted together going to tub, black/white on load side of GFI. NM out of disconnect, stapled under deck to tub.

At the tub, red to red, black to black, white to white. And it worked for a while.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

jamiedolan said:


> I bet it is tripping when the tub tries to use a 120v load, line to neutral.
> 
> Is there a light? a Separate pump for bubbles?
> 
> Jamie


There is a light and stereo. I did notice that one time after it tripped I got the tub going again but the stereo was not working.

The tub is NOT the Sparta Triton 6 person. It is the Jacuzzi brand Triton 8 person.

You can get an owners manual at:

http://www.jacuzzihottubs.com/request-brochure/download-manuals.html

scroll to the bottom and under Owners Manual Archive and select Platinum Series Spa 2001.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

*Electrical Requirements*​ 
Your Jacuzzi Premium spa (except the Triton) requires a *230VAC, 50 AMP, 4-wire groundedtype GFCI protected electrical service with copper conductors*, and must be in a separate circuit having no other appliance connected in that circuit. If you do not have this kind of circuit, a qualified electrician should install the necessary wiring. A wiring diagram is provided on the inside cover of the electrical control box. Inadequately sized wiring may cause the unit to malfunction and bring about permanent damage to the hot tub’s electrical system. The circuit must also have a ground wire in order to take advantage of the designed-in safety features of the hot tub. A bond wire must also be used. Bond according to procedure described below.

*WARNING: Without proper grounding and bonding, a system malfunction may cause fatal shock.*​

I didnt bold face the qualified part, but its something your installer is lacking.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, that disconnect is too close to the tub
All outlets & disconnect must be at least 5' away

I looked at my box

White from main panel goes to a neutral bar *isolated* from the box
White from breaker goes to this bar too
White from tub goes to breaker

Ground bar & Neutral bar must be separate!!

Ground from panel goes to ground bar attached to the box
*Insulated ground* from tub goes to the same bar
You have an uninsulated copper ground - not allowed

Can't look at my tub wiring, too cold outside


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

TahoeTexan said:


> There is a light and stereo. I did notice that one time after it tripped I got the tub going again but the stereo was not working.
> 
> The tub is NOT the Sparta Triton 6 person. It is the Jacuzzi brand Triton 8 person.
> 
> ...


I'm not convined that there is anything wrong with the tub or the breaker, althought it might be possiable. My opinion is to get a electrician in that can sort things out. Since now we know that they do require a 4 wire feed, getting rid of the neutral is not the proper answer imo.

It's fixable, and no one has been hurt.:thumbup: I belive that a junction / small panel can be installed on the romex before it leaves the house, ('m not 100% positive on that, but a licensed electrician in your area would know if that is allowed under your code) then thhn/xn could be run the rest of the way. A good electrician may be able to find a realitivly inexpnesive way to bring this up to code and make it safe. 

Good Luck, sorry I could not be of more help.

Jamie


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> Since now we know that they do require a 4 wire feed, getting rid of the neutral is not the proper answer imo.


Jamie, look at the wire termination block, its only a 3 wire hookup. 2 hots and a ground.


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## TahoeTexan (Feb 20, 2009)

jamiedolan said:


> It's fixable, and no one has been hurt.:thumbup:
> 
> Good Luck, sorry I could not be of more help.
> 
> Jamie


Yeah, most importantly nobody was hurt.

Jamie, you have been very helpful.

It definitely seems that a good licensed electrician along with the tub manual will be able to quickly diagnose and fix the problem(s).

The less than 5' disconnect is my fault because I knew where the box would be mounted and set the tub too close to the wall. But I will move the tub farther from the wall/box the first time I drain it.


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Some of the stuff I've seen, a lot of being lately, I think if someone invites me over to "get in the hot tub" I'll say "sure, just as soon as I check the wiring":thumbup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I hope this puts to rest the neutral issue..... the triton is the only platinum series spa that requires only a 3 wire 240 volt supply 2 hots and a ground. the others require a 4 wire because they have 120 volt loads and 240 volt loads.

To say again the gfci is wired incorrectly and the terminal block is a 3 wire connection!! That neutral is not required and on top of that it is connected to the ground.....!!!


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

TahoeTexan said:


> Yeah, most importantly nobody was hurt.
> 
> Jamie, you have been very helpful.
> 
> ...


I'm concerned with the proper bonding grid installed as well... You have that tub sitting on concrete.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> I'm not convined that there is anything wrong with the tub or the breaker, althought it might be possiable. My opinion is to get a electrician in that can sort things out. Since now we know that they do require a 4 wire feed, getting rid of the neutral is not the proper answer imo.
> 
> It's fixable, and no one has been hurt.:thumbup: I belive that a junction / small panel can be installed on the romex before it leaves the house, ('m not 100% positive on that, but a licensed electrician in your area would know if that is allowed under your code) then thhn/xn could be run the rest of the way. A good electrician may be able to find a realitivly inexpnesive way to bring this up to code and make it safe.
> 
> ...


Jamie 

The owners manual was not required to really determine this spa does not require a neutral. One look at the terminal block in the control box and it jumps right out at you.

The miswire at the gfci is also pretty easy to see. but there are enough wires to make it difficult to tell but the pigtail really dead ends on the ground bar.

Both issues are easily fixed by the homeowner.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Both issues are easily fixed by the homeowner.


Those fixes will get the tub up and running, but other serious code violations still remain.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

chris75 said:


> I'm concerned with the proper bonding grid installed as well... You have that tub sitting on concrete.


What do they need to do for a proper bonding grid?
Especially if the concrete pad is pre-existing without rebar?
Does that change if the concrete is just under the tub & not a patio?
From what I have read it is only required when there is paved access

I have a tub that is not powered - solar heated
But at some point I may connect power
Its on concrete block, not a patio


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Chris

Yes... I most certainly agree with that. I just did not want to be redundant in what you already said. The code violations must be corrected and if he brings in a electrician he might as well have him make the corrections with the wiring.

The grid problem is the hard one to choose the best approach. You can try to pour another pad on top of the existing concrete with the grid installed or they have insulating pads that I believe are allowed by some juristictions. I'm not sure how the rebar is done in the existing pad, might be able to access it and get a bond wire in it.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> What do they need to do for a proper bonding grid?
> Especially if the concrete pad is pre-existing without rebar?
> Does that change if the concrete is just under the tub & not a patio?
> From what I have read it is only required when there is paved access


Hopefully rebar _was_ installed and its just a matter of chipping away until its found.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My pool has a bonding grid
One hot tub I have is accessed off of a wooden deck
There is not other access as the tub is built into the deck
So from what I read in the code this is OK

There are also non-conductive matts that some people put around their tubs to meet the 3' code. I'm just not sure if the matts do meet code


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> There are also non-conductive matts that some people put around their tubs to meet the 3' code. I'm just not sure if the matts do meet code


That would be up to someone to appove IMO.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Just reading thru the section on hot tubs
Weird they way they word some stuff
"Shut off required not less then 5' away from the tub"
Then it goes onto say this requirement shall not apply to single family residence. So it almost seems as if you could place one within 5'
But I'm sure it says somewhere no outlets etc within 5'

A receptacle is required between 6' & 10' of a tub

I'm still reading thru for the bonding part


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Just reading thru the section on hot tubs
> Weird they way they word some stuff
> "Shut off required not less then 5' away from the tub"
> Then it goes onto say this requirement shall not apply to single family residence. So it almost seems as if you could place one within 5'
> ...


What your reading is an Emergency Switch requirement, this is not the same as the required disconnect. 680.22(C) is the section that tells us the disconnect has to be 5' away. Also, parts I & II of 680 apply to Spas and Hot Tubs.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> I hope this puts to rest the neutral issue..... the triton is the only platinum series spa that requires only a 3 wire 240 volt supply 2 hots and a ground. the others require a 4 wire because they have 120 volt loads and 240 volt loads.
> 
> To say again the gfci is wired incorrectly and the terminal block is a 3 wire connection!! That neutral is not required and on top of that it is connected to the ground.....!!!


Sorry for all the confusion on that. I do see what you mean with the terminal block being only a 3 wire setup, and also saw where the ground was incorrectly connected. When I read the manual and they said it required a 4 wire setup, I wondered if the terminal block was really correct or if it was messed with and something else was jumpered in that pile of wire where I could not see it. 

Thanks 
Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ah, OK - Thanks
I did see the 1st section
Then I saw the 2nd one & thought that over-rode the 1st one as the 2nd was specific to hot tubs


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

chris75 said:


> Jamie, look at the wire termination block, its only a 3 wire hookup. 2 hots and a ground.


Thanks, I did see that, I just didn't know if the wiring on the hot tub side of the block had been messed with. 

Would that terminal block otherwise look the same for a 4 wire setup, other than it would have 4 wires on the right side H,H,N,G? (vs now H,H,G)

Jamie


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> Thanks, I did see that, I just didn't know if the wiring on the hot tub side of the block had been messed with.
> 
> Would that terminal block otherwise look the same for a 4 wire setup, other than it would have 4 wires on the right side H,H,N,G? (vs now H,H,G)
> 
> Jamie


Yes, and that white label in the background would change as well..


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

chris75 said:


> Yes, and that white label in the background would change as well..


Thanks, Now I realize what the tag must say, Ground, Line, Line, blank on the bottom space. Got it.

Thanks
Jamie


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