# Painting Old House



## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

No paint, no matter what they say, should be applied under your conditions without a primer. It will: look better and last longer.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

I never did all that much exterior work on oldies but goodies but the last one I restored had gorgeous old cypress and cedar siding I took down to the wood. 

I primed it with Benjamin Moore Alkyd Fresh Start primer tinted 40-50 percent of the final paint formula. Alkyd primers are solvent based products so you have to clean up with mineral spirits. People sometimes refer to it as an oil-based primer. It is not. It is alkyd. I think alkyd is the great equalizer because it will cover near anything nicely prepped and you can paint over it with either oil or waterbased products.

I then called for two coats of waterbased, 100 percent acrylic house paint with as much UV protection in it as possible, in whatever sheen wanted, to go over the alkyd primer. The high end Benjamin Moore products were of course great choices. Nice brushes and other tools of course. 

Owner of the house fell on hard times and sold it to some Ukrainian slum lord apartment conversion company. They ripped the primed siding off and put up crappy vinyl so it never got finish coated but I would have used two coats of nice 100 percent acrylic, water based house paint. 

A lot of people in the preservation group I was part of swore by MAB solid color acrylic stain for use on their wood sided antique projects and it looked nice---not the same as a painted finish though. I personally would not use it over previously painted surfaces unless I was sure I had stripped all the old paint off. 

And do stay away from the box stores for the paint. I just saw a banner flash across the bottom of the screen here a day or so suggesting Sherwin Williams was soon offering 30 percent off everything for a week or something. Ben Moore will have similar deals all season and the store owner/manager has such deals at his/her disposal. You may have to ask for the discounts though. 

There is no such thing as primer and paint in one. The chemistries and even basic purposes are different just to start. 

If you are not sure your color choices try the virtual painting programs availed free by SW, Ben Moore and others. They will simulate what your house will look like painted. Take the codes to the store and have a quart mixed if you still want to paint out a little bit before committing to gallons and gallons.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

What SDS said


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

Rimer and paint can't be in the same container, as they each serve there own purpose. Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the prep. I would also wash the house after prep, before primining and then caulk where trim meets siding as needed with a quality acrylic-silicone paintable caulk. I would prime with Sherwin Williams A100 oil primer and paint with SherwiN Williams Superpaint satin sheen.


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## Dean CRCNA (Jan 24, 2010)

Smokin Gun,

Hate to turn you into a human experiment, but just wondering ...

Any headaches, cold or flu like symptoms, irritability, constipation, weakness, fatigue or other non-typical symptoms while you were scraping or sanding? Did you wear a mask? Any small children in the home?

Was your home built in the early 1920s?

I specialize in lead based paint and it would help a lot to know. You can answer via private message, if you want.


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## jarheadoo7 (Jun 7, 2011)

Sherwin williams Duration is "self priming" and I have seen it last a while if the surface is prepped right...but BM fresh start is an awesome primer.. if you want a worry free method hit the spots with the fresh start and top coat with 2 coats latex...i recommend duration..


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

jarheadoo7 said:


> Sherwin williams Duration is "self priming" and I have seen it last a while if the surface is prepped right...but BM fresh start is an awesome primer.. if you want a worry free method hit the spots with the fresh start and top coat with 2 coats latex...i recommend duration..


Sherwin Williams Duration is a great paint, but you really still should still prime any bare wood and on an older substrate an oil primer would be best. Sherwin Williams Superpaint is cheaper than Duration and last just as long.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

I wish we could stop using "oil" and "alkyd" primer references interchangeably. They are different and I while I suspect people mean alkyd when suggesting an oil based primer for home interiors, I am not certain.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Exterior house painting is not a place where you'll want to be "saving $5 a gallon by shopping at the big box stores" because when their cheap-but-expensive paint fails on you in <2 years, you'll wish you'd saved up a bit more - and used a real paint.

Shoot, for $38 I can get you Behr - or Benjamin Moore. With the Behr you get an $8/gallon paint, and 300% markup to keep the store open; With BM you get three times the quality paint plus a 50% markup to keep the best paints coming. 

Succcumb to the paint+primer all-in-one hype in your guest bedroom, where all it costs you is your time to learn the hard way what we just told you. With one you'll redo it in 2 years, with the other, in 10 years. Your choice. 

Watch; the Quack from Omaha is going to disagree...LOL


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

sdsester said:


> I wish we could stop using "oil" and "alkyd" primer references interchangeably. They are different and I while I suspect people mean alkyd when suggesting an oil based primer for home interiors, I am not certain.


Just to technical for most, hell, even I interchange them.:laughing:


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

ccarlisle said:


> Exterior house painting is not a place where you'll want to be "saving $5 a gallon by shopping at the big box stores" because when their cheap-but-expensive paint fails on you in <2 years, you'll wish you'd saved up a bit more - and used a real paint.
> 
> Shoot, for $38 I can get you Behr - or Benjamin Moore. With the Behr you get an $8/gallon paint, and 300% markup to keep the store open; With BM you get three times the quality paint plus a 50% markup to keep the best paints coming.
> 
> ...


yep, you may have to bring that horse back out again


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

chrisn said:


> Just to technical for most, hell, even I interchange them.:laughing:


Oil is an extinct species around here. And my big box store doesn't even sell alkyd.


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Just to technical for most, hell, even I interchange them.:laughing:


I, for one, probably use the terms interchangably because I have no clue what the difference is. The OP says he is filling nail sets with window glazing. The window glazing I use, DAP 33, specifically recommends "oil based primer" within 7-14 days after application. Now, I've been using Zinsser Seal Coat, which I have come to believe is an Alkyd but actually have no idea whether it is or not...:huh: or, whether it satisfies the window glazing requirement. .. more info please:confused1:


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

I personally like oil based exterior paints. Nothing looks better then oil based if done correctly. Anyway its outside so you don't have to worry about the smell just takes a little longer to dry.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jschaben said:


> I, for one, probably use the terms interchangably because I have no clue what the difference is. The OP says he is filling nail sets with window glazing. The window glazing I use, DAP 33, specifically recommends "oil based primer" within 7-14 days after application. Now, I've been using Zinsser Seal Coat, which I have come to believe is an Alkyd but actually have no idea whether it is or not...:huh: or, whether it satisfies the window glazing requirement. .. more info please:confused1:


Seal coat is a sealer and not necessarilly what you want( I don't think) I have always used a slow dry oil primer( or maybe alkyd?) such as Fresh Start oil or Duron before and after glazing. Sometimes if I am down to the bare wood on window sashes I will wipe on a coat of linseed oil to sink into the wood.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Chemically, "oil" and "alkdy" are different things - but that baout the only world where it really matters practically; in ou world, it is sufficine to know that an 'alkyd' is a modified 'oil', but they both qualify as the opposite from latexes...

More importantly is that Oil/Alkyds dry in 6 hours or so but cure in 10 days whereas latex paints dry in 3 hours but cure in 30 days! and that temperature, humidity levels, dew points and air movement affect the final results you get...I see a lot of people using latex when it's 90 deg outside and wonder why they don't get the results they hoped for - then blame the paint. 

They never blame the piant in Nebraska.


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm impressed with all of you responding to my questions. You people are great!! I'm very,very happy to have found this site. This has been extremely helpful.

I did see the sale on SW paints and am going to buy 16 gallons.
Not sure if I'm going with Duration ($57 @ 30% off = $39.90) or their Super Paint line ($44 @ 30% off = $30.80).
My total Square Footage is 3340. Times two coats= 6678. I am assuming that coverage is 400 sq. ft. per gallon. I will find out when I go to purchase paint. 
Any thoughts welcome all of you paint masters.


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

I would like to know what to do about priming with oil base primer. 
I know you *can *put latex over oil *but can't *put oil over latex.
The existing paint *is *latex. The bare wood is here and there, some areas are large, but some are spotty, like a brindle dog (If you get my drift.).
If I use oil primer, do I have to be careful about not going over the existing latex paint?
If I can't put oil primer over existing latex paint, will the latex primers work ok?

I Thought maybe go with SW Super Paint and use an oil primer on all large areas of bare wood and as many smaller spots as well. 
Question-
Does Duration do better on existing painted surfaces vs. the Super Paint/ Or do they both perform the same?


This brings up a thought. Could I go with a tinted primer for my first coat, then a finish coat with Duration or Super paint? Two coats?
OR do I need to do primer coat and two coats with paint?

Or would I do just as well with the Super Paint and oil primer, with saving $160 in my pocket.
But afew people here said the Super Paint is just as good.

Thoughts?


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Seal coat is a sealer and not necessarilly what you want( I don't think) I have always used a slow dry oil primer( or maybe alkyd?) such as Fresh Start oil or Duron before and after glazing. Sometimes if I am down to the bare wood on window sashes I will wipe on a coat of linseed oil to sink into the wood.


Does this mean I have to use oil primer on glazing? What would happen is I used a latex primer on it?
(I'm not sure what primer on bare wood I am going to use. I know the oil base is better. The existing paint is latex, and I know you can't put oil based over latex.)


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

Dean CRCNA said:


> Smokin Gun,
> 
> Hate to turn you into a human experiment, but just wondering ...
> 
> ...


Dean-
I use masks, safety glasses and have had no trouble withh any of those symptoms you mentioned. There are no children living here. Just my wife and me.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Reglazing old windows - in fact, preserving them - is a whole cottage industry that is working wonders in it's domain...reglazing old windows is the 'easy' part of restoring them, but chrisn brings up a good point about linseed oil. 

After years of exposure to the elements, windows dry out and several coats of linseed oil are used to refurbish and refresh the wood of muntin bars - which are normally quite skinny pieces of wood, when it comes down to it. The linseed oil may take a week to dry but once dried, a coat of exterior oil-based primer is required - never latex. The film created by the primer provides a barrier between the wood and the new putty so that the linseed oil in good window putties doesn't leach into the wood and dry out.

Then a good grade of linseed oil putty is used to replace the panes of glass. You can apply an oil-based paint within a few days of reglazing (since they're compatible) - but you would have to wait about 2 weeks to apply a latex, to wait for the putty to dry...shows you the difference - in that field - of using latex vs oils...


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

After doing some reviewing on the posts, it sounds like I only have to prime the bare wood and not the painted surfaces. Just what I have thought all along.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Smokin Gun said:


> After doing some reviewing on the posts, it sounds like I only have to prime the bare wood and not the painted surfaces. Just what I have thought all along.


 
You only HAVE to prime the bare wood. If it was me I would slow dry oil prime the whole blasted thing to give yourself a uniform surface to apply you're 2(two) finish coats.:yes:


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

Tomorrow we are going to buy paint at Sherwin Williams which is 38 miles from where we live. 

I will be asking who ever we are dealing with about primers (hopefully they are knowledgeable.).

*I'm asking all of you because you people are pros.*

*The bare wood is about 20 to 30% , the existing paint is the remaining 70 to 80%. The house in areas looks like a brindle dog with alittle bare wood and alot of existing latex paint. Then there are large areas where it is all bare wood.*

I need to prime the bare wood and the existing paint is *LATEX.* If I use oil primer, I can't put it over the existing Latex paint, right? As it would cause the latex paint to bubble. 

If I buy the alkyd primer, can that primer be applied over the existing Latex paint. If not, would I be better off using an acyrlic primer?


Does the cheaper "Super Paint" really hold up as good as "Duration"? Or is the extra 160 dollars for Duration worth the extra money.

Even though (and I believe you people when you say that there is no such thing as primer and paint all in one.) Duration claims to be both primer and paint, will that paint adhere to those brindle areas of bare wood and existing latex paint better than the the less expensive Super Paint?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Smokin Gun said:


> Tomorrow we are going to buy paint at Sherwin Williams which is 38 miles from where we live.
> 
> I will be asking who ever we are dealing with about primers (hopefully they are knowledgeable.).
> 
> ...


I would not trust ANY paint bonding well to bare wood.


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

ccarlisle said:


> Reglazing old windows - in fact, preserving them - is a whole cottage industry that is working wonders in it's domain...reglazing old windows is the 'easy' part of restoring them, but chrisn brings up a good point about linseed oil.
> 
> After years of exposure to the elements, windows dry out and several coats of linseed oil are used to refurbish and refresh the wood of muntin bars - which are normally quite skinny pieces of wood, when it comes down to it. The linseed oil may take a week to dry but once dried, a coat of exterior oil-based primer is required - never latex. The film created by the primer provides a barrier between the wood and the new putty so that the linseed oil in good window putties doesn't leach into the wood and dry out.
> 
> Then a good grade of linseed oil putty is used to replace the panes of glass. You can apply an oil-based paint within a few days of reglazing (since they're compatible) - but you would have to wait about 2 weeks to apply a latex, to wait for the putty to dry...shows you the difference - in that field - of using latex vs oils...


 

CCarlisle and Chrisn: Very interesting info on using linseed oil. 

My bad for not explaining that we had installed new composite windows in our old house 5 years ago.
Before the new windows, the old ones were in sorry shape. We bought this house 9 years and I did reglaze every single window (23) and storm window (another 23) 7 years ago. Wish I knew that trick with the linseed oil 7 years ago.
I went thru I think 4 quarts of Dap 33 glazing. I used a heat gun to get the old cracked up glaze off. It took me about a month to complete. I was doing this when I got home from my regular job.

The glazing I'm using now for filling the nail holes is the left over from that job.

I definitely appreciate your advise.

When I'm priming the bare wood can I apply an "alkyd" primer over the existing latex paint where the bare spots intermingle with the latex paint? I know that oil base products take longer to dry and if oil base coatings are put over latex, it can cause the latex paint to let go of surface. (Bubbling effect.)


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Look, ideally you would be told to strip it all off and start again...LOL And whereas this is the 'correct' approach, it may not be practical in many situations...

In days gone by, around the time your house was built, they painted the wood siding with a linseed oil paint and the job lasted for 20-30 years...father did the first job, then the son did the next one. But nowadays, especially where latex exterior paints are concerned, you're lucky to get 10 years out of a paint job. It's now become a routine chore. But now the wood is dry and the necessity of replacing that lost oil from the wood, and ths an oil paint or an alkyd is called for. 

That's on bare wood. Now if you say you have part bare wood part old paint, then you're at the stage of spot maintenace - and that means treating the bare wood one way, theold paint another because the requirements aren't the same. So oil-prime the bare wood but don't prime the old paint.

But make sure the bare wood is dry; if you have a moisture meter, make sure there is no excess moisture coming from the inside of your house through the wood and out to the exterior; that'll cause a premature paint failure guaranteed.

Now when it's all dry, you're then faced with essentially two surfaces. Now depending on what the old paint is, and what the new paint you're putting on is, the results may differ - that's why it's a bit of a tough call from where we sit. See, an acrylic 'new' paint may dry and pull off the old paint - or might not. 

So it;'s hard to predict what might happen; you might try different sorts of new paint, an acrylic, an oil or alkyd new paint or a latex new paint and see what the effects are. A quart of each would do.

Not a definitive answer but there is no way of knowing what will happen and apart from "strip it all", that's about the best advice someone could offer. Far be it from anyone here to say "paint the whole house with Brand X type of paint", for it to start peeling in 6 months. And nobody here is an on-site expert.

Except the Omaha-quack that is...LOL


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## jschaben (Mar 31, 2010)

This has certainly grown into an informative thread. I'm also getting more excited about the Zinsser Cover Stain. The can says "Oil Base - Interior & Exterior" Primer. The back of the can says "may be used over or under any oil or latex architectural paint". The kicker is "Dry Time: Dries to the touch in about 30 minutes; can be recoated in 1 hour."

I became a believer in oil base paint and glazing when I moved into this old house. The east porch alone has 39 windows, 36 of them are 6" x9". The south porch has 9 double hung windows, 18 panes, plus the bedrooms, living room, kitchen etc. All of which need glazing when I moved in. Naturally, I didn't treat the window opening and primed and painted with latex. Within 3 years I was into a reglazing project as the glazing I had just put in had dried out, hardened and cracked. 
Tuition ain't cheap no matter how you come by the education...:wink:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

The kicker is "Dry Time: Dries to the touch in about 30 minutes; can be recoated in 1 hour."

and right there is why you do NOT want to use it as a primer for exterior,:no: it drys so quick it has no time to sink into the wood and do it's job properly.

There, now I think I am done with this subject. As I said earlier, if I was painting this house it would get a slow dry oil( alkyd) primer over the WHOLE surface( despite was carlisle has proposed) and 2 top coats of 100% acrylic paint.:whistling2:


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

ccarlisle said:


> Look, ideally you would be told to strip it all off and start again...LOL And whereas this is the 'correct' approach, it may not be practical in many situations...
> 
> In days gone by, around the time your house was built, they painted the wood siding with a linseed oil paint and the job lasted for 20-30 years...father did the first job, then the son did the next one. But nowadays, especially where latex exterior paints are concerned, you're lucky to get 10 years out of a paint job. It's now become a routine chore. But now the wood is dry and the necessity of replacing that lost oil from the wood, and ths an oil paint or an alkyd is called for.
> 
> ...


Very well said ccarlisle!! :thumbup:

I called the Benjamin Moore store 14 miles from me and talked to the owner for a good 20 minutes or more. when I read your post, I nearly fell of my ball as he had said alot of what you said.

The BM owner has been in the business for over 30 years. He asked me about my house and told me that oil primer is exactly what I need on the bare wood. Then since the house is old, there isn't a vapor barrier in the walls and the insulation is not like the new insulation so you get heat loss thru the walls along with moisture. That moisture will push against the existing paint and cause it to loosen. This means that I will to do paint maintenance 4 or 6 maybe 7 years from now, but it will be on the existing paint on the house right now. The bare wood areas prepped right with good quality paint should last longer.
I had told him about the SW paint sale and asked if he could match it.
said he couldn't but he would give 10% off. (He really was trying to sell me on BM paint.)-
Now what he said to me made my decision easy.He said that SW has good paint and sells alot of paint for less and they only make afew dollars a gallon. This has worked for them. 
This tells me that SW "Super Paint" at regular price of 44.50 @30%= $31.50 at or better than the BM "Ben" paint at about 47 [email protected] 10%= 42.90.
Since I will always have to do maintenance on painting due to "old house syndrome", I went and bought SW super paint with the 30% off. Also bought some oil primer too.

From what all of you great people have said about paints (has Steered me to SW & BM paints.) and that BM storeowner told me, I know that no matter if a I put the SW "Duration" or the $70 BM "Aura" or the Super Paint I bought on a good sale, I will have to paint again because of paint failure due to the old house "syndrome".


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisn said:


> The kicker is "Dry Time: Dries to the touch in about 30 minutes; can be recoated in 1 hour."
> 
> and right there is why you do NOT want to use it as a primer for exterior,:no: it drys so quick it has no time to sink into the wood and do it's job properly.
> 
> There, now I think I am done with this subject. As I said earlier, if I was painting this house it would get a slow dry oil( alkyd) primer over the WHOLE surface( despite was carlisle has proposed) and 2 top coats of 100% acrylic paint.:whistling2:


Chris, even though you are right, I am only priming the bare wood as I am dealing with the "old house syndrome" and no matter how well I prep and paint, I will have paint failure down the line.

I have learn so much from you guys!!


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

One last question?
Does it matter if I use an old brush to apply the oil primer? 
I know your suppose to use natural bristle brushes for oil pant, does that include oil primers?
We bought three different sizes of Purdy brushes that are nylon/polyester blend for SW super paint. I don't really want to use them for the oil primer.

O.K. That was two questions. :laughing:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

1) How old? You don't want a peice of crap brush to prime with as it will show through the finish in the long run.

2) Yes


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks Chris-
I just took my paint brush inventory. 
The old brushes are three nylon/polyester, (One might be just polyester.) two are 1.5 inch, the other is a 4 inch (also a nylon/polyester blend). That is the one that I was thinking about using on the siding. 
The New brushes include one natural that is 1.5 inch. We will use that one for priming the trim. 
The old ones aren't in bad shape as I always work at cleaning them the best I can.
We had bought three different sizes of Purdy brushes and a brush comb. I plan on taking breaks every three hours(when we are painting with the SW super paint.) or maybe less to "clean the paint brushes".
We also had this new brush I didn't kow we had. It's a "Accuflo". The price tag says $13.99 I know we've had this one for years, as I don't remember buying it. It might have been in a box I got at an auction. I know it is a good one as it has a wood handle and the metal is riveted to the wood. Also has the reuseable cardboard cover.

From what you said about natural bristles for the oil primers, I will go buy a 3 or 4 inch natural bristle brush.

Thanks for all the good advice you've given me.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I don't know how big your'e hands are or how big an area you are painting but a 4 in brush is BIG
my go to brushes are almost all 2 1/2 in with a 4 for doing large flat siding in latex only and it will wear you out in a day.


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## Smokin Gun (Jun 27, 2011)

I went and bought a 3 inch natural bristle and did half of the east side before threatening weather approched. 
Went fine.
Thanks for the info on the 4" brushes. Makes sense, I'll save that for the garden shed painting project.

Those paint combs are great. Makes the brush look like new again.


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