# Hard rain creek runs through yard. HELP



## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

I have a horse pasture above my home and when we get a hard rain it will wash the mud and horse manure from the field and through my yard right past the house. See there's an underground stream that runs right where the water on top of the ground runs. About 1 year ago (before I bought the home) someone put a 6 inch pipe in the ground to take care of this (What an idiot) 6 inch? Yeah right. Just got done planting grass and strawed it and all washed away. Any ideas what to do? We thought for starters to install river stone through the middle of the yard which would be fine but what about the water, mud and manure getting from the field to the yard? Build about a 12" wall with mountain stone so the water can get through but not the crap? Any thought??????I sure could use some help on this one. This is twice it washed me see3d and straw away. Now I've had it. Here's a few pics and you can see between the fence posts where the water, mud and manure run. The ground is still muddy after raking it up. The underground stream is right under this part of the yard and field.


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## Roberta-mos (May 15, 2009)

rent a backhoe and create another underground streambed with a HUGH steel pipe. the pipe is the biggest expense. We have two under our driveway. One was about $1000.00 and kind of big for a diy. The wider the pipe the more it costs, also the size of your yard would (length of pipe) affect costs too. Then all you need to do is think about causing the drainoff in the field to head for the pipe. Have a screen of some kind to keep it from clogging and check it at least once a year, in the spring or it will eventually fill up with all of the mud, etc You might want to hire another person to do this. People who put in driveways should know how to fix this. they calculate the size by the footage of runoff possible and then look at 100 year flood possiblities.

Aside from the mud and gunk, the other thing would be to "create" a stream in your yard and enjoy an intermittant water feature. this would mean an open ditch with enough slope to avoid standing water. If it meandered a bit it could be asthetic. a flat yard is out.


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## Roberta-mos (May 15, 2009)

Do you own the horse pasture? prevent overgrazing. less horses/field. rotate locations. replant the field with things to prevent runoff, not just grass. esp at lower end near your yard. also consider if you dont own the field, planting things in your yard that would enjoy the water and mud and control the flow. Elderberries love a rich moist situation and the berries are really good for you, make jam and syrups for winter for fighting colds and flue. keep young children from these as they are poisonous.


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

The yard already is sloped to avoid standing water and your second idea was a thought. Line the yard with like mountain stone, few flowers and bushes but I'd have to have some sort of barrier to keep the gunk from running into the yard also. Like I said,,,,I thought a small wall of mountain stone in the valley part of the field right between the 2 posts. Stones spaced good enough to let the water through but not the gunk.
Yes I do own the field and we just opened up about another 2 acres to the left of the field. So that also will keep them out of this area some. Although this is their little hiding place,,,run in and shelter.


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## Roberta-mos (May 15, 2009)

Its hard to fight the power of water. a stone wall could be a dam that would back it up and make the pasture soupy and then it would eventually flow over anyway. Enough plants there could really help, I can visualize one of those attractive arched bridges in your back yard over a small stone dry run/wet stream. The other possibility might be to "create" a small pond in the pasture with cat tails. They are used by our town's sanitation department for control of run off, but they do have a specific requirement of ? inches of standing water to live ( no more and no less). consider creating a shelter for the horses somewhere else, move or plant other trees and that water tub must be an attraction for them also. have another fence maybe 15-20 feet further in to keep them off that area and plant it heavily with something....county extension agents in Maine answer these kind of questions what to plant....your view of the pasture will eventually be gone. Man, if I had that spot it would be elderberries. they grow like weeds, like full sun ph of 6, good to zone 3. they love the moisture, but do not like standing water. I have been researching them and one person on line said that theirs grew 4 feet in one season. An inexpensive source would be Fedco, but they would not be buyable until next spring as they are a seasonal coop business. Birds love the berries. a hedge of those would be the answer for me. otherwise, after putting up the fence further in, turn a portion of your yard also into a garden for more of a" buffer". All of that mud and manure would make a great garden. If you are not into gardens, well, day lillies are tough and come back year after year with no maintance. they also like sun. there are hundreds of varieties. You could start a collection and even sell the "babies". Enough of a buffer of moisture and manure loving plants and the water would be slowed down and I doubt of the gunk would be a problem. In you photo it does not look that steep.


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## Roberta-mos (May 15, 2009)

*one more thought on the backyard water question*

another plant that would do well ....roses. They cannot get too much water and love manure. I would go for less showy but easy care ones. The hips are a valuable source of Vit C and can be saved in the freezer for winter colds as well as dried. landscape bushes bloom almost all summer. Tea roses are more work and some dont' like cold winters. You would need to prune once a year to keep them getting out of hand.


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## downunder (Jun 13, 2008)

Thought about a rain garden?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I'd create a rock riverbed & line it with flowers
Or border it with a veggie garden
You should get softball sized tomatoes


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

The problem here is the quantity of water flowing through the back yard. What I see in the photos indicates a general landform of about a 5% slope that extends to the treeline in the photo background.

In the graphic below the slope is shown by the purple contours. An extensive area drains toward the coral with the direction of water flow shown by the blue arrows. All this water gets together near the lower part of the coral and then flows across he back yard in a narrow channel, show by red arrows.

Most of the water can be redirected by cutting a swale in the location shown. Determine the grade elevation at point 'A'. Then position point 'B' at the low place in the terrain where the elevation is the same as point 'A'. Dig a shallow swale shaded in green through points 'A' and 'B', moving the dirt to the area marked 'Fill'.


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

Very good drawing,,,you nailed it. Okay, to the right there's a road and more of an upgrade. So I'd have to dig about 6 ft. deep over there. And to the left there's more of a hill. There again about 6 ft. of digging. The water comes into the funnel from about 8 different places and all gathers at the fence. It just rained hard again,,,This time I had water and very little muck. I could live with a stone wall to help trap some muck that I get and then maybe a dry run part way through the yard with plants. I might just put up the wall first and see what happens. Then if all is well, continue with the dry run.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

A proper rain garden along the rock riverbed will really suck up the water. Someone else just did this & had very good results

You also don't want to trap water in the corral area
So you need it to drain without letting the pucks thru


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

The wall would be an expensive mistake. While photos can be misleading, in this case they indicate to me that a 1 ft deep swale would work if placed in the right location. I can't see where a 6 ft deep ditch is needed.

The way to begin is to map the property with elevations. Only when the facts are known can a detailed plan be completed that will minimize the cost and work needed.

I assumed that your house is located to the bottom of the graphic. If this was incorrect and the house is toward the top of my graphic, then a swale in the other direction would be the way to go.


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

I was saying about a wall, not to stop the water be some how stop the muck from coming into the yard. I like the idea about the swale, but the water would have to flow uphill quite a bit on both sides. What you have as the deck is actually the corner of the house. And don't forget,,,,ther is an underground stream that flows all the time. It's right where the low spot is. And right behind the shed, there's a road.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Bearcamp said " _... but the water would have to flow uphill quite a bit on both sides."

_It's clear you don't understand the concept of minimum swales_. _let me see if I can explain it. 










In the graphic above, assume that the natural ground elevation at point A is 100.00 Note the dash line through point B. This line is along a slope, higher to the left, lower to the right. Some place along this line the elevation will be equal to 100.00, same as at point A. Point B is set at this location.

The swale is dug at point A to be about a foot or slightly deeper making the new elevation there to be 99.00. The dirt being dug is moved to the fill area blocking the water from following the old direction of flow. The elevation of B is still 100.00 or a bit above if fill dirt was spread there. The water then flows along the swale from B at elev 100 to A at elev 99.

Depending on the distance from A to B, point B may need to be positioned slightly higher or the swale dug slighly deeper at A. The minimum fall should not be less than 1.5 ft per 100 ft of distance.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Right, but he is dealing with a 6' change in elevation
Digging down 6' is not easy
Even digging 3' & adding the 3' to the low area would be a big undertaking


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

That's the same thing I'm getting at.....Water won't flow uphill. But,,,,,just maybe I still don't understand. Also right where you want the swale, there's a new 4 horse stall goin in.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Since I didn't learn anything from fifty years of shaping and grading dirt and can't see what isn't in the photos, I must be wrong and you are probably right. Carry on. I don't know why I bothered to respond.


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

Now don't be that way as you do have good ideas and I do appreciate the help. I'm probably the one who don't understand, that's why I came here to find out and learn. I'm a mechanic and work on small engine repair, land scaping is not my cup of tea. Bottom line is,,,,,,,,,not everybody knows everything. Have a small engine problem? Ask me.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

He is saying to dig down enough & add the dirt to the low spot/fill spot to have point (B) LOWER then point A . That still means digging down quite a bit

Point A is 6' above Point B according to the poster


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

OK, I'll give it one more try. The problem is not the water from the corral but all the excess water from the huge area beyond the corral that rushes across the corral and flushes all the crap into you yard. The area beyond the corral looks to be many times larger than the corral and so most of the water crossing your yard comes from there. If it was limited to just the rain from the corral, it would only be a trickle; not the type flow that carries all the gunk and washes away your grass seed.

I can't run water uphill either. Look at the edited photo below and you can see that point A behind the shed is several feet above where the flow comes into your yard. But all that area shaded blue at the backside of the corral and beyond is higher than point A and can be made to flow in that direction (it's downhill!)










If you are a mechanic maybe you were taking your bicycle apart when you were 10 years old. I was following a survey crew around when I was 10.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

I now see clearly what pls8xx is talking about.

From the photo, it looks like that area beyond the pasture is much higher elevation than the pasture itself. I would go out there and determine a point B out there somewhere that is comparable to point A on the other side of the sheds. 

If you can get most of that water drainage out of the way, the pasture drainage may not be so bad.

Bearcamp, I do like your idea of building a small retaining wall around the pasture to keep the dirt/debris in the pasture, but still let the water flow. I don't know how to do it, but I think it would look nice, especially with the rock foundation of the shed to the right.

I think Scuba Dave's idea of a creek bed would also be a nice touch. Nothing more spectacular than actually having water run through your river bed.

However, you must promise to come back and post photos of your solution.


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

OK pls8xx, Goin out today and checkin things out for the swale. A buddy of mine has about 400 sand bags we could use if needed. That would give us a start to try it. I also can dig a very small ditch right where you say about the swale that might work also as they already have them in part of the yard and does work for routing water. But they're placed where it routes water into the yard. The underground stream is as it was years and years ago. Rocks piled up to make a small tunnel and travels about 1/4 of a mile. This place was build in 1880. OLDDDDDD.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I see what he means too
Excellent idea, just didn't understand how


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## Thalweg (Oct 9, 2008)

Pls8xx's recommendations are probably the best way for a long term fix, but when I work a project like this I usually try some simpler options before moving a lot of dirt. I think you were on track with your rock "wall". We call them rock check dams. I build them out of 6-inch angular rock. I generally make them about 2 feet high with the center lower than the ends. The idea is to cause the runoff water to pool on the upstream side to slow the velocity. This will cause the suspended sediment to drop out on the upstream side. The use of medium sized rock will allow water to flow through the rock rather than over. If they do pool too much water, they've got to be set so that water will flow over the top rather than around. If it goes around, it will erode. The key to rock check dam effectiveness is maintenance. When they fill about 1/2 way to the top, the collected sediment must be removed. We usually look at these as a temporary measure to control sediment until the upstream area gets vegetated, which obviously isn't in the cards for you as long as you've got horses in the pasture. However, as long as you maintain these regularly, they will work well. I've built hundreds of them and they're very effective. Depending on how much runoff you actually get, you may need a series of checks, but from what I see in the pictures, I'd start with one at the fence-line and see what happens. I've got lots of pictures at the office, but won't be back in the office for about a week. However, you can find lots of pitures and diagrams by doing a Google search on "rock ditch check"

As you know, you need to get grass growing below the fence-line. The check should slow the water velocity and make that easier. But I'd also over seed the area heavily and line it with an erosion control fabric like jute. As small as the area is you could probably use burlap. Just make sure its stapled into the ground well. Keep it well irrigated ant the grass will grow right up through the fabric.

I'd also look into controlling water uphill as much as possible. If you can prevent water from running onto the pasture (diverting around) you'd reduce your problem. Also, water bars or ditches installed on contour in the pasture would reduce sheet flow across the pasture and trap sediment before it gets to your lawn.

There are a lot of ways to remedy this problem. If I were working it, I'd keep things as simple as possible, until simple is proven not to work.

Good luck:thumbsup:


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## Bearcamp (Dec 24, 2008)

Heyyyyy all, thanks for the ideas and input. We ended up doing a few small ditches towards the top of the field that helped but not what was needed. So I continued with the rock wall and took it a little further and put in a rock garden. Well,,,,,,,,,,we had some good rain falls and it worked great. The manure and mud stayed above the wall and left the water through to continue down the yard. No problem. The only issue we have so far is general maintence removing the mud and muck once in a while. No big deal. So,,,,you wanted pics, here they are. Let me know what you think. We planted some flowers and grasses but a pile of ivy. We're not quite done but getting there.


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## Thalweg (Oct 9, 2008)

Looks good. :thumbsup: I never thought of having a downstream rock garden. I like it. Maybe I'll use that one sometime.


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