# Adding a 30A 240V GFCI outlet



## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

You wouldn't need a gfi. Is the heating element an appliance . cord connected or what. Or something homemade.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

It is a 5500W heating element that is used in water heaters. It will be in water for about 3 hours. It is plugged into a unit that controls it and that unit is plugged into the new outlet.

The company selling this unit says it must be plugged into a GFCI outlet.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Well, always follow the mfg. instructions to make the installation correct.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

bobelectric said:


> Well, always follow the mfg. instructions to make the installation correct.


Well yeah that is what I plan on doing. My question was, is there a difference between putting in a 30A GFCI breaker in my panel or putting in a 30A regular breaker and adding a 50A GFCI spa panel off that.

They will both draw the same amount of current and both have GFCI. Just seems like adding a spa panel is a little more work and I don't know the advantage of it.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

I have been doing some research to see what I need to do. I just read that any circuit for a living room, dining room or bedroom cannot be in a tandem breaker. Those are the AFCI breakers. I still need to figure out what a few of the breakers power but I do know some of the breakers I was going to put into a tandem breaker is for a living space.

Can I tell what breakers are AFCI just by looking at them?

Is it possible to combine 2 20A breakers into one tandem just like 15A ones? I may be able to combine 2 20A breakers and 2 15A breakers to create a space for the double pole 30A.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

h22lude said:


> The company selling this unit says it must be plugged into a GFCI outlet.


I'd be interested to see where it says this.:huh:


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Sorry he says it is highly recommended. I'm no electrician but I would think it would be good to use a GFCI outlet when using a heating element and 15 gallons of water boiling. Isn't that what GFCI breakers are for?


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

GFCI is a good idea for that application. It's not required by code unless the manufacturer specifies it, but it is definitely a safer installation. A spa panel with an integral GFCI will do the trick if you can't easily get a 30A GFCI for your panel. You can use a 30A breaker in the panel to feed the GFCI spa panel, which will likely be 50A or 70A. That's perfectly fine - the spa panel will provide GFCI protection, while the 30A breaker feeding it provides overcurrent protection.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> GFCI is a good idea for that application. It's not required by code unless the manufacturer specifies it, but it is definitely a safer installation. A spa panel with an integral GFCI will do the trick if you can't easily get a 30A GFCI for your panel. You can use a 30A breaker in the panel to feed the GFCI spa panel, which will likely be 50A or 70A. That's perfectly fine - the spa panel will provide GFCI protection, while the 30A breaker feeding it provides overcurrent protection.


No it isn't required. Seeing as there is a lot of water with an exposed heating element in a pot of water (the wiring is water sealed), I think going with a GFCI is a safe route. It is more money but I'd rather have piece of mind.

I had an electrician come in and I just got the quote now. For him to remove 4 15A breakers, replace them with 2 15A tandem breakers, add the 30A GFCI, wiring, outlet and plug it will cost $285. I'm a DIYer and would really like to know how to do this. Is it worth learning how to do this myself or should I just pay a pro to do this job?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

h22lude said:


> I have been doing some research to see what I need to do. I just read that any circuit for a living room, dining room or bedroom cannot be in a tandem breaker. Those are the AFCI breakers. I still need to figure out what a few of the breakers power but I do know some of the breakers I was going to put into a tandem breaker is for a living space.
> 
> Can I tell what breakers are AFCI just by looking at them?
> 
> Is it possible to combine 2 20A breakers into one tandem just like 15A ones? I may be able to combine 2 20A breakers and 2 15A breakers to create a space for the double pole 30A.



you do not have any afci breakers.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

h22lude said:


> No it isn't required. Seeing as there is a lot of water with an exposed heating element in a pot of water (the wiring is water sealed), I think going with a GFCI is a safe route. It is more money but I'd rather have piece of mind.


I get the mentality, but then why not recommend GFI for a water heater as well?


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

jbfan said:


> you do not have any afci breakers.


Yeah the more research I do I am finding that I don't have them. The way I understand it, you aren't required to replace a breaker to AFCI but if you do need to change a breaker you will need to replace it with an AFCI one (if it is for a circuit in a living area).

It also seems that another way to do it is to replace the first outlet in the circuit with an AFCI one. So I could replace 4 15A single pole breakers with 2 15A tandem breakers and replace the first outlet in each circuit with an AFCI one and be up to code. If I understood what I read lol



Speedy Petey said:


> I get the mentality, but then why not recommend GFI for a water heater as well?


I was thinking that as well. One thought is he just wants to cover his ass which I can understand. It does seem like all the home brewers I talk to online have put in a GFCI outlet. Another thing is, a water heater is enclosed where as my brew pot will have 15 gallons of water boiling in an open pot and can splash out.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

I would like to see what the inside of that panel looks like.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I get the mentality, but then why not recommend GFI for a water heater as well?


Because a water heater is fully enclosed and nobody can access the water inside while it's operating. If there is a fault (which happens often), the current goes exclusively to ground through the metal shell of the heater. In a brew vat, the element is accessible to people stirring it, who may contact the element directly with utensils.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

mpoulton said:


> Because a water heater is fully enclosed and nobody can access the water inside while it's operating. If there is a fault (which happens often), the current goes exclusively to ground through the metal shell of the heater. In a brew vat, the element is accessible to people stirring it, who may contact the element directly with utensils.


The brew kettle is metal and bonded, what is the difference? Hot water elements break all the time and use the grounding conductor to continue heating the water at 120 volts, if the grounding conductor was damaged, it would pose the same safety issue. (I'm basically saying what you are, I just don't get the difference of safety concern) 



IMO, just another lawyer CYA scenario....


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## Cletis (Dec 29, 2013)

First of all, for GOD'S SAKE, REPLACE THAT HIDEOUS MURRAY PANEL!!

Secondly, if you have a cement floor wouldn't hurt to put in a 2 pole 30 amp gfci breaker if its carpet I wouldn't worry about it


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Cletis said:


> First of all, for GOD'S SAKE, REPLACE THAT HIDEOUS MURRAY PANEL!!
> 
> Secondly, if you have a cement floor wouldn't hurt to put in a 2 pole 30 amp gfci breaker if its carpet I wouldn't worry about it


I'm not going to replace things in this condo. If it works, I'm going to leave it. Plan on selling within a year anyway. Just curious, what other type of panel that doesn't look like that is there?

Well if I did add this outlet in my basement, I would be standing on carpet but it is the cheap basement carpet.

I could always brew in my laundry room using the dryer outlet. I wouldn't have to install anything, though it still doesn't have GFCI. I keep getting conflicting answers. Some people say it needs to be done. Others say it isn't necessary.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

A water heater is enclosed, and typically full of water.

This vat has an exposed element which may not be submerged at all times. The conductivity of the liquid/ground path is not assured. What if the vat is empty for cleaning, a utensil damages/contacts the element while the cleaning personel is grounded by the vat. I'd GFCI it.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

h22lude said:


> I could always brew in my laundry room using the dryer outlet. I wouldn't have to install anything, though it still doesn't have GFCI. I keep getting conflicting answers. Some people say it needs to be done. Others say it isn't necessary.


It isn't required by code, unless the manufacturer's literature says it is needed. However, I would absolutely want GFCI for that. Although some disagree, I see a big difference between a water heater, where no one can contact the heating element itself, versus a boiling pot or mash tun where you can touch the element directly with a utensil. If the element fails (which it eventually will), there is no guarantee that the metal sheath of the element will remain intact and provide effective bonding protection. The bare element may end up in contact with the water, which would be a serious hazard to anyone stirring it.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> A water heater is enclosed, and typically full of water.
> 
> This vat has an exposed element which may not be submerged at all times. The conductivity of the liquid/ground path is not assured. What if the vat is empty for cleaning, a utensil damages/contacts the element while the cleaning personel is grounded by the vat. I'd GFCI it.


Well the element will always be submerged when plugged in. When I clean it, it will always be unplugged.

However I do think GFCI is the safest way to go. May not be necessary or needed per the code but I think I'm going to do it anyway. I would most likely be fine without it but if anything it will be peace of mind.

This may not be a good solution to saving money but is it possible to get a 30A GFCI breaker and switch it out with the dryer 30A breaker when I brew and then switch it back after I brew (I believe I heard driers should be on GFCI so I couldn't just leave that in)? I would obviously need to turn off the main power, pull out the 30A, switch the wires and put in the GFCI 30A. If I installed the outlet myself it probably wouldn't save me much money not having an electrician install it would save me $185 (HD sells 30A GFCI breakers for right around $100).


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

If you're going to continue to use the dryer plug for the dryer, I'd swap the breaker out once. The dryer(depending on it's age) shouldn't have any problem operating on a GFCI protected circuit. If the dryer works, you're good to go. If it trips(probably due to a control circuit or lamp), you may have to go another route.

Swapping the breaker every time you want to use the vat heater is asking for trouble. You expose yourself to risk every time you're in the panel, or may just avoid changing it out all together, because of the "hassle".


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> If you're going to continue to use the dryer plug for the dryer, I'd swap the breaker out once. The dryer(depending on it's age) shouldn't have any problem operating on a GFCI protected circuit. If the dryer works, you're good to go. If it trips(probably due to a control circuit or lamp), you may have to go another route.
> 
> Swapping the breaker every time you want to use the vat heater is asking for trouble. You expose yourself to risk every time you're in the panel, or may just avoid changing it out all together, because of the "hassle".


Thanks. I thought I read somewhere that a dryer usually trips a GFCI breaker but I couldn't find anything just now. That may be the best option. Swap out the breaker (which I can do myself) and buy a 10/3 dryer plug with 6' wire. My outlet is the older 3 prong type. The dryer is less than 2 years old.

If for some reason my dryer trips the GFCI breaker, I'll have an electrician install an outlet and I'll already have a breaker he can use.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Vegas Sparky said:


> A water heater is enclosed, and typically full of water.
> 
> This vat has an exposed element which may not be submerged at all times. The conductivity of the liquid/ground path is not assured. What if the vat is empty for cleaning, a utensil damages/contacts the element while the cleaning personel is grounded by the vat. I'd GFCI it.


If the element is on and there is no liquid there is a pretty good chance he will burn up the element right quick.

In other words; if somebody is cleaning the vat the element is not going to be on. 

and the heating element is not the exposed portion, at least the current carrying part. There is a wire element inside of that sheath along with a layer of insulation so it doesn't contact the outer sheath.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

mpoulton said:


> Because a water heater is fully enclosed and nobody can access the water inside while it's operating. .


so you don't use any water while your water heater is running?


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

nap said:


> so you don't use any water while your water heater is running?


You think that's the point he was trying to make?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

clw1963 said:


> You think that's the point he was trying to make?



my point is his statement was erroneous since it is based on flawed physics.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

nap said:


> my point is his statement was erroneous since it is based on flawed physics.


Try again. Or do you really not understand the difference between water exiting a heater tank through a long, bonded metal pipe and an open vat where a utensil can directly contact the heating element? Water is not all that conductive. Any reasonable length of bonded metal pipe will provide effectively complete isolation from a submerged ground fault at the other end. This seems pretty obvious.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> Try again. Or do you really not understand the difference between water exiting a heater tank through a long, bonded metal pipe and an open vat where a utensil can directly contact the heating element? Water is not all that conductive. Any reasonable length of bonded metal pipe will provide effectively complete isolation from a submerged ground fault at the other end. This seems pretty obvious.


I'm not expert in either hot water heaters or electricity. I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying to learn at the same time.

Is your reason behind saying my brew pot should have GFCI is because I stir and can touch the exposed heating element or because it can splash out the top? Or is there another reason?

Reason I bring it up is because I'm not stirring when the element is on. I actually don't do much when the element is on besides throw in hops. If I do need to stir I use a big plastic spoon.

Again, I may sound like I'm trying to avoid using GFCI (which I'm not if that is the best way to go). I'm just trying to learn the theory behind using it since it is pretty new to me.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

I used to brew, used propane though, I'm an electrician, and I almost built a brewpot with electric elements. I wouldn't use GFCI protection... I just don't see the point, as long as everything is proper grounded, you are good to go.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

stickboy1375 said:


> I used to brew, used propane though, I'm an electrician, and I almost built a brewpot with electric elements. I wouldn't use GFCI protection... I just don't see the point, as long as everything is proper grounded, you are good to go.


This is exactly what is happening on the brew forum lol Some people say it is crazy not to and others say there is no need.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

h22lude said:


> This is exactly what is happening on the brew forum lol Some people say it is crazy not to and others say there is no need.


It comes down to education on the subject, there really is no reason to gfci protect the equipment, but it won't hurt, either... But being a brewer and an electrician, I just don't see the point.


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## Ben25 (Jun 14, 2014)

I hope you're going to have a good fan down there too. Otherwise you might have some mold issues...


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

mpoulton said:


> Try again. Or do you really not understand the difference between water exiting a heater tank through a long, bonded metal pipe and an open vat where a utensil can directly contact the heating element? Water is not all that conductive. Any reasonable length of bonded metal pipe will provide effectively complete isolation from a submerged ground fault at the other end. This seems pretty obvious.


the heating element, or at least the portion you are speaking of, does not carry current. There is a wire inside. Do you really think there are energized conductors exposed to the water in the tank?

and pure water is not conductive at all but I have never seen water in a water supply system pure enough to not be of concern. 


and no, it does not provide any isolation. You need to check out the definition of isolation when speaking of electrical systems. Providing a grounded length of pipe in between a faucet and the water heater does not isolate anything. Using that analogy everything that is metal and grounded (in an appliance) isolates whatever you think is being isolated. Not the case esquire.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

nap said:


> the heating element, or at least the portion you are speaking of, does not carry current. There is a wire inside. Do you really think there are energized conductors exposed to the water in the tank?
> 
> and pure water is not conductive at all but I have never seen water in a water supply system pure enough to not be of concern.
> 
> ...


What makes the heat in the heating element ?


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

h22lude said:


> Is your reason behind saying my brew pot should have GFCI is because I stir and can touch the exposed heating element or because it can splash out the top? Or is there another reason?


If you're never accessing the inside while the element is on, then the risk is greatly reduced I would say. Splashing outside only matters if your wiring and controls are not sealed appropriately for the level of moisture they are subjected to. You can certainly do this safely without GFCI protection if the contents of the pot will not be accessed in operation. But I'd still GFCI it - obviously others disagree, and that's OK.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

nap said:


> the heating element, or at least the portion you are speaking of, does not carry current. There is a wire inside. Do you really think there are energized conductors exposed to the water in the tank?
> 
> and pure water is not conductive at all but I have never seen water in a water supply system pure enough to not be of concern.
> 
> ...


It's like you're intentionally misinterpreting what I said to make it sound stupid. No, the metal shell of the heating element isn't a current-carrying part. But if it is damaged or corroded through, then the current-carrying resistance wire is exposed to the water. That's a self-accelerating condition, because the current flow from the element to the metal sheath underwater causes rapid corrosion and disintegration of the metal sheath. If you've ever pulled a severely failed element from a water heater, you know what this looks like. Clearly there's a bunch of current flowing into the water when that happens.

As far as metal piping providing isolation from a submerged ground fault, I think you must not be understanding what I'm saying about that. You were complaining that a fault in a water heater should pose the same risk as a fault in a boiling pot. I said that's not right, because a water heater is a bonded metal shell with only bonded metal piping allowing access to the water. The point is that a bonded metal pipe of any significant length will guarantee that the water inside is at ground potential at one end, regardless of whether there is current flowing into the other end. As long as the pipe is considerably longer than its diameter, no significant current will flow through the water and make it out the other end of the pipe. The ratio of current flowing to ground through the bonded pipe versus current flowing out the other side could be calculated based on the geometry of the pipe (this requires calculus and looks a lot like some standard physics exam problems). It does not depend on the resistivity of the water, only on the length-to-diameter ratio.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

i am kinda lost in all the replies..

just use a 30amp gfi breaker. not sure what panel you have, but there's likely a 30a dbl pole gfi for your panel. install breaker, done. am just curious to know if the heating element has only two connectors on it (as most do), if so where would the neutral go?


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Does this element really just poke through the tank unprotected?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

clw1963 said:


> What makes the heat in the heating element ?


Go down to the store and buy one and cut it in half. There is a heavy wire inside of a coating of insulation which is then in the jacket you see.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

bobelectric said:


> Does this element really just poke through the tank unprotected?


the wire is encapsulated in ceramic core with a metal sheath, ......usually


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

concrete_joe said:


> i am kinda lost in all the replies..
> 
> just use a 30amp gfi breaker. not sure what panel you have, but there's likely a 30a dbl pole gfi for your panel. install breaker, done. am just curious to know if the heating element has only two connectors on it (as most do), if so where would the neutral go?


The breaker requires a neutral, the load does not in this application, so there is no neutral.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> Does this element really just poke through the tank unprotected?


Yes, is this really any different than a toaster oven?


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

stickboy1375 said:


> The breaker requires a neutral, the load does not in this application, so there is no neutral.


 so the two hots power the element, and the tank case tied to gnd.the water should be bonded to gnd if case is non-metal, etc. breaker pigtail to panel neutral bus bar...... done.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> If you're never accessing the inside while the element is on, then the risk is greatly reduced I would say. Splashing outside only matters if your wiring and controls are not sealed appropriately for the level of moisture they are subjected to. You can certainly do this safely without GFCI protection if the contents of the pot will not be accessed in operation. But I'd still GFCI it - obviously others disagree, and that's OK.


Correct. The only time I need to do anything near the water is to remove the grains (the element is unplugged) and then to add the hops (the element will be on but I'm just throwing in hops).



bobelectric said:


> Does this element really just poke through the tank unprotected?


I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. The element goes through a hole in the kettle and is secured with a nut on the inside. There are o-rings to stop leaks and the wiring is enclosed




















concrete_joe said:


> so the two hots power the element, and the tank case tied to gnd.the water should be bonded to gnd if case is non-metal, etc. breaker pigtail to panel neutral bus bar...... done.


The element is grounded to the kettle. The kettle is stainless steel.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

10/2 and bond the gnd to the kettle gnd, or if no gnd provided then bond it. 30amp gfi breaker...... done.

whats the Q again?


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

I'm basically trying to figure out the cheapest way to be able to use an electric brew system. Don't read cheapest as not being safe. This is why I came on here to ask.

I want to know if it is ok to just plug my system into my dryer outlet without having GFCI. If that isn't ok (which some say it is and some say it isn't), could I just swap out my dryer breaker for a GFCI breaker? If that isn't possible, then I would have to get a new outlet installed in my basement with a 30A GFCI breaker and 240V 3 prong outlet.

The element has 3 wires and is grounded to the kettle.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Now it looks like 2 elements? Who's gonna check out the wes site?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

h22lude said:


> I'm basically trying to figure out the cheapest way to be able to use an electric brew system. Don't read cheapest as not being safe. This is why I came on here to ask.
> 
> I want to know if it is ok to just plug my system into my dryer outlet without having GFCI. If that isn't ok (which some say it is and some say it isn't), could I just swap out my dryer breaker for a GFCI breaker? If that isn't possible, then I would have to get a new outlet installed in my basement with a 30A GFCI breaker and 240V 3 prong outlet.
> 
> The element has 3 wires and is grounded to the kettle.


Dude, get brewing already... i'm thirsty. Stop wasting your time on a DIY site with random people that simply don't understand home brewing.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

bobelectric said:


> Now it looks like 2 elements? Who's gonna check out the wes site?


Easy fella lol that is their 120V system that has two elements. I was just showing you how the outside of the elements look like.

I used that one because this one isn't as close up. See, 1 element 











stickboy1375 said:


> Dude, get brewing already... i'm thirsty. Stop wasting your time on a DIY site with random people that simply don't understand home brewing.


Haha I'm trying. I just want to make sure I'm doing this safety. I'm going to order the system and pump probably tonight.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

The original request for help was never resolved.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

One question that I don't think has been asked or answered is whether your dryer receptacle is three or four wire. If it's a three wire receptacle, then it is not code compliant (and arguably unsafe, but arguably not) to use for this. Only a four-wire receptacle can legally be used to feed this type of equipment. The neutral terminal would not be used if all parts of your load are 240V. A three-wire dryer receptacle is technically ungrounded, with only two hots and a neutral. In practice, the neutral connection is used for bonding, but this causes some safety problems with 120/240V loads. That's why you're only allowed to use them for dryers and ranges, and only if they were already in place before the code changed.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> One question that I don't think has been asked or answered is whether your dryer receptacle is three or four wire. If it's a three wire receptacle, then it is not code compliant (and arguably unsafe, but arguably not) to use for this. Only a four-wire receptacle can legally be used to feed this type of equipment. The neutral terminal would not be used if all parts of your load are 240V. A three-wire dryer receptacle is technically ungrounded, with only two hots and a neutral. In practice, the neutral connection is used for bonding, but this causes some safety problems with 120/240V loads. That's why you're only allowed to use them for dryers and ranges, and only if they were already in place before the code changed.


The dryer is 3 wire. I do believe 3 wire outlets are still in code as long as they were in the house. You have to put 4 wire outlets in now but if you have a 3 wire you don't have to change it. That is how I read the code and how it was also explained to me. EDIT: I guess I didn't understand your last sentence but it seems like this is what you are saying.

The brew system only comes with three wires. This is what he said...

Q. Why do you only use 3-wires for the 240VAC circuit and require a separate 120VAC plug. Why don't you get the 120VAC for the pump off of half of the 240VAC?

A. We use three wire circuit as many Ground Fault Interrupter type circuit breakers will see the imbalanced load created by running the pump off of one of the legs as a ground fault. We want everyone protected by a GFI breaker, so we require a separate 120VAC (on a GFI as well). If you have a 4-wire plug, simply don't use the Neutral wire.


This circuit is only for 1 5500W element. Nothing else. I will be using a different circuit for the pump.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Oh my god... lol.... you are never going to be brewing at this rate...



You have an appliance, it needs a certain sized circuit, the dryer circuit just happens to meet this criteria... story over, plug it in and start brewing already.


The people on this site will dissect this until the cows come home.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

I think a long time ago in this thread, it was disclosed that the mfgr recommended a GFCI protected circuit. I don't remember.

Why not run a new 4 wire 30A/240V circuit for the dryer, and GFI protect the existing dryer circuit for the heater? :whistling2:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Vegas Sparky said:


> I think a long time ago in this thread, it was disclosed that the mfgr recommended a GFCI protected circuit. I don't remember.
> 
> Why not run a new 4 wire 30A/240V circuit for the dryer, and GFI protect the existing dryer circuit for the heater? :whistling2:


Because that is ****ing ridiculous... That's like saying, I just bought a new dryer, so... now i'm going to tear the house apart.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> I think a long time ago in this thread, it was disclosed that the mfgr recommended a GFCI protected circuit. I don't remember.
> 
> Why not run a new 4 wire 30A/240V circuit for the dryer, and GFI protect the existing dryer circuit for the heater? :whistling2:


Because that will cost more than just adding an outlet in my basement.

Dryer is up 2 flights of stairs. Running all that wire, new breaker, changing the wiring in the dryer to 4 wire will cost way more than $280 which is what I'm trying to avoid. I'm trying to avoid doing anything to this place as I plan on selling within a year. I just want to be able to use my brew system with spending as little as possible.



stickboy1375 said:


> Oh my god... lol.... you are never going to be brewing at this rate...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I brew last weekend on my old system. I have a dry stout fermenting now with 2 other beers and a hard lemonade on tap :thumbsup:

I'm just making sure that not using GFCI is fine and a good amount of people have been telling me it is perfectly fine to do.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> Because that is ****ing ridiculous... That's like saying, I just bought a new dryer, so... now i'm going to tear the house apart.


How do you like your new dryer? LOL


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

h22lude said:


> Don't worry, I brew last weekend on my old system. I have a dry stout fermenting now with 2 other beers and a hard lemonade on tap :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm just making sure that not using GFCI is fine and a good amount of people have been telling me it is perfectly fine to do.


I miss brewing, but hey, check out my links to my home made bar, I had a sick setup with two taps and CO system...


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Vegas Sparky said:


> How do you like your new dryer? LOL


I love mine, still using a 3 wire cord also... You know whats really cool? My service is 3 conductors as well... go figure...


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

h22lude said:


> A. We use three wire circuit as many Ground Fault Interrupter type circuit breakers will see the imbalanced load created by running the pump off of one of the legs as a ground fault. We want everyone protected by a GFI breaker, so we require a separate 120VAC (on a GFI as well). If you have a 4-wire plug, simply don't use the Neutral wire.


It looks pretty clear that the manufacturer requires GFCI protection for the heater. Regardless of everyone else's opinions (or mine), if the manufacturer says it then it is required.

A normal 2-pole GFCI breaker has a neutral connection and will handle 120V loads just fine, so there is really no reason why you should use a separate circuit for the pump.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

mpoulton said:


> It looks pretty clear that the manufacturer requires GFCI protection for the heater. Regardless of everyone else's opinions (or mine), if the manufacturer says it then it is required.
> 
> A normal 2-pole GFCI breaker has a neutral connection and will handle 120V loads just fine, so there is really no reason why you should use a separate circuit for the pump.


I'm not trying to go against what you are saying, just pointing some things out.

He doesn't require it. Everywhere on his site and directions it says recommended but never required. I think what he is trying to say in that answer is his system requires a 120V outlet in addition to the 240V. If he used 4 wires instead of 3 and let people attach the pump in that circuit, GFCI breakers may see that added pump as a ground fault. Since he recommends GFCI, he wanted to make sure people could use GFCI on the 240V and 120V without them tripping.

From his directions...

Note: This system is sold as a complete kit with the exception of the Power Plug. You will need to add
a 240VAC power plug that corresponds to your local electrical requirements and your 240VAC
receptacle. A 30 AMP circuit is required. A Ground Fault Interrupter is highly recommended as
well for this circuit.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

h22lude said:


> I'm not trying to go against what you are saying, just pointing some things out.
> 
> He doesn't require it. Everywhere on his site and directions it says recommended but never required. I think what he is trying to say in that answer is his system requires a 120V outlet in addition to the 240V. If he used 4 wires instead of 3 and let people attach the pump in that circuit, GFCI breakers may see that added pump as a ground fault. Since he recommends GFCI, he wanted to make sure people could use GFCI on the 240V and 120V without them tripping.


OK, so not *required*, just highly recommended. Do whatever you want regarding GFCI protection. As far as 120V power for the pump goes, the manufacturer's concerns about tripping a GFCI are unwarranted. 2-pole GFCIs handle 120V loads just fine.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> mpoulton;1612601]One question that I don't think has been asked or answered is whether your dryer receptacle is three or four wire. If it's a three wire receptacle, then it is not code compliant (and arguably unsafe, but arguably not) to use for this. Only a four-wire receptacle can legally be used to feed this type of equipment.



first, an existing 3 wire installation can remain but cannot be modified. If there is a need to modify it must be updated to a 4 wire BUT


OP is only using a 3 wire system so as long as the circuit is fed from the service panel (neutral and grounding system bonded) it is 100% legal to feed a 3 wire appliance from that.

if it is a sub panel, the third wire would have to be connect to the ground terminal for it to be legal.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> I love mine, still using a 3 wire cord also... You know whats really cool? My service is 3 conductors as well... go figure...


Um, a 120/240 service is only 3 wire. The POCO does not send you a ground. That is derived at the installation.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

nap said:


> Um, a 120/240 service is only 3 wire. The POCO does not send you a ground. That is derived at the installation.


This statement proves you don't get it....


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Love DIY sites, the guy just wants to brew some beer, stop making this so difficult, he owns an appliance, it plugs into a dryer receptacle... leave it at that.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

67 posts and we still haven't brewed any beer yet..


for what its worth, a lawyer will 'highly recommend' anything to avoid ANY type of law suit...


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> This statement proves you don't get it....


I don't get what? You made some comment about your service having 3 wires. Of course it only has 3 wires. That is all it is supposed to have.


Now, if you want to be snide, I'll stop here but in my other post I answered your question. Plugging a 3 wire appliance into a 3 wire receptacle is just fine. The issue about a 4 wire dryer circuit is irrelevant to your issue. No idea why the other guy even brought it up. 


to the GFCI issue; fuhgettaboutit.


it is not required per the manufacturer. You can put it in if you want to but you don't have to. More safety is always a good thing.

just realized you aren't the OP.

sorry about that. 

but the intent remains the same


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

mpoulton said:


> A normal 2-pole GFCI breaker has a neutral connection and will handle 120V loads just fine, so there is really no reason why you should use a separate circuit for the pump.


other than to provide a receptacle for the 15 amp plug you would be hooking it to a 30 amp circuit. I think you know enough that that is not allowed.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

nap said:


> I don't get what? You made some comment about your service having 3 wires. Of course it only has 3 wires. That is all it is supposed to have.
> 
> 
> Now, if you want to be snide, I'll stop here but in my other post I answered your question. Plugging a 3 wire appliance into a 3 wire receptacle is just fine. The issue about a 4 wire dryer circuit is irrelevant to your issue. No idea why the other guy even brought it up.
> ...


Its cool, you are on the same page...


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

nap said:


> other than to provide a receptacle for the 15 amp plug you would be hooking it to a 30 amp circuit. I think you know enough that that is not allowed.


The pump and heater wiring will not be "building wiring" subject to the NEC, but wiring of the brewing apparatus itself. NEC does not apply to the stuff on the far end of the cord and plug. The pump may be fine on a 30A OCPD, or it may be a good idea to add an appropriately sized fuse for it.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

mpoulton said:


> The pump and heater wiring will not be "building wiring" subject to the NEC, but wiring of the brewing apparatus itself. NEC does not apply to the stuff on the far end of the cord and plug. The pump may be fine on a 30A OCPD, or it may be a good idea to add an appropriately sized fuse for it.





but aren't you the one saying the NEC was in play because of this:




> GFCI is a good idea for that application. It's not required by code unless the manufacturer specifies it, but it is definitely a safer installation. A spa panel with an integral GFCI will do the trick if you can't easily get a 30A GFCI for your panel.


You have to make up your mind. Either it is in play because the manufacturer requires it and if so, the NEC is in play because the manufacturer required a 30 amp 240 volt circuit plus a 120 volt circuit or it isn't involved. 

you choose. 


but on top of that you are suggesting the OP build a power distribution system that is a problem. When using the outlet for 240 only, the third wire is a ground (when connected as I stated previously). In your system (with a 120 volt supply tapped off) you are using it for an actual neutral so there is no EGC.

and after all your hollering about: put in a GFCI, put in a GFCI

and you want to make a power distribution system with no EGC. How backwards thinking is that?

but regardless of whether the NEC applies or not, you do not put 15 or 20 amp rated devices on a 30 amp circuit. There is a reason there is a current rating on them. 




and as to your bonded water pipe: never heard of pex or pvc plumbing? That means there is going to be no metallic water pipe between the water heater and the faucet so, the water is not going to be (in your words) "isolated" in the manner you suggest if there is a fault in the water heater element to the water. 

and to the steel vessel; many (most, if not all modern) water heaters are lined with glass, enamel, or ceramic so what was the issue with the vessel being grounded?


Hmmm


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

The brew system has been order. Should be here within a week.

I'm going with my dryer outlet for now. If for some reason during the test I find it to be unsafe, I'll swap out that breaker for a GFCI one.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

h22lude said:


> The brew system has been order. Should be here within a week.
> 
> I'm going with my dryer outlet for now. If for some reason during the test I find it to be unsafe, I'll swap out that breaker for a GFCI one.


Happy brewing, I used to order a lot of my brew kits from Midwest Supplies, had great prices and the beers were fantastic...


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

NEC says the item to be installed per manufacturer instructions, thus, if the item says "_use GFCI_" then NEC will enforce that whether the item really needs it or not. manufacturers are covering butt, etc.

for the small price of gfi breaker and some wire, no brainer to spend that $$ to make it ooooober safe, etc.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not but what about put the 3 wires from the system into the line out of a 50A spa panel then install a 3 wire dry plug on the line in of the spa panel, essentially hard wiring a GFCI panel to the system that can plug into any 30A 240V outlet. I need to buy a 3 wire plug to wire to the system (he doesn't provide one because he doesn't know if you have 3 or 4 wire plug). So all I really need to buy is a $50 spa panel. Would this work or can I not wire the spa panel like that.


And not that this makes it any safer but I will be wearing shoes and have rubber mitts on when brewing.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

you mean like a Eaton 40 or 50amp "spa panel" which is nothing more than a panel box with a dbl pole gfci breaker ??? 

ok, why not just put a 3 prong 30amp receptacle on wall and run 10/2 to the panel and put in a 30amp dbl pole gfci breaker ??


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> NEC says the item to be installed per manufacturer instructions, thus, if the item says "_use GFCI_" then NEC will enforce that whether the item really needs it or not. manufacturers are covering butt, etc.
> 
> for the small price of gfi breaker and some wire, no brainer to spend that $$ to make it ooooober safe, etc.


the manufacturers literature did not require a GFCI but it did require a separate circuit for the 120 volt supply. 

a problem if not using a separate circuit:

this is a 3 wire dryer circuit. When using it for straight 240, that's fine and the 3rd wire becomes a ground (may may have to change it from neut to ground if not fed from the service panel). When you tap off a leg and what you want to use for the neut, you are really tagging onto the egc.

that means there is no egc. You have 3 hot conductors and no ground. 

that also means your neutral is connected to the tank and everything else that is metal. Talk about a code issue. 


they changed dryers from 3 to 4 wire for a reason.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> you mean like a Eaton 40 or 50amp "spa panel" which is nothing more than a panel box with a dbl pole gfci breaker ???
> 
> ok, why not just put a 3 prong 30amp receptacle on wall and run 10/2 to the panel and put in a 30amp dbl pole gfci breaker ??


Because then we are getting back to the $280 install that I was trying to avoid. Plus that also makes it permanent. With the spa panel part of the system power cord, I can take my set up anywhere and brew as long as someone has an electric dryer 3 prong outlet.



nap said:


> the manufacturers literature did not require a GFCI but it did require a separate circuit for the 120 volt supply.


Exactly. I was going to say this but didn't want to get into it. He recommends GFI but does not require it. He said he requires a second 120V circuit.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

10/2 for the heater(s) to a 3 prong outlet, and some other 120v circuit for the 120v needs. 

tie (bond) the 10/2 bare gnd to apparatus metal casing.

cant be harder than that.

if he wants 240 and 120 from same feed (10/3 wire) than get a distro spa panel, they have a 240 gfci and two 20amp branch circuits. you can then hard wire to the panel or wire up a 3-prong outlet for 240 (hot-hot-gnd) and a std 120v outlet for the 120v needs. but, technically the 120 is not a separate feed from main panel, etc.

any spa panel will require xx/3 wiring,,, btw. so how would you plug a spa panel into a 3-prong 240v outlet? you cant do that.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping::sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> Because then we are getting back to the $280 install that I was trying to avoid. Plus that also makes it permanent. With the spa panel part of the system power cord, I can take my set up anywhere and brew as long as someone has an electric dryer 3 prong outlet.


ok, so swap out the breaker for a gfci version. not sure what you're after, its either new breaker or xx/3 wiring, etc.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> any spa panel will require xx/3 wiring,,, btw. so how would you plug a spa panel into a 3-prong 240v outlet? you cant do that.


the line out side of the spa panel goes to the 3 wires on my system so the system is now wired to the spa panel. A 3 prong dryer plug is wired to the line in of the spa panel so now I have a full power cord with a spa panel in the middle.

A spa panel is cheaper than a 30A GFI breaker.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> ok, so swap out the breaker for a gfci version. not sure what you're after, its either new breaker or xx/3 wiring, etc.


I think you are going backwards. I'm now asking about the spa panel inline with the power plug of the system. It seems like the cheapest option to get GFI and it is still portable.

New breaker and plug using dryer outlet is $120. Entire new outlet is $280 installed. Inline spa panel and plug using dryer outlet is $80.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> concrete_joe;1617977]10/2 for the heater(s) to a 3 prong outlet, and some other 120v circuit for the 120v needs.
> 
> tie (bond) the 10/2 bare gnd to apparatus metal casing.


yes





> if he wants 240 and 120 from same feed (10/3 wire) than get a distro spa panel, they have a 240 gfci and two 20amp branch circuits. you can then hard wire to the panel or wire up a 3-prong outlet for 240 (hot-hot-gnd) and a std 120v outlet for the 120v needs. but, technically the 120 is not a separate feed from main panel, etc.
> 
> any spa panel will require xx/3 wiring,,, btw. so how would you plug a spa panel into a 3-prong 240v outlet? you cant do that.


correct, you an't do that since you do not have a ground if you do it that way since the third wire is going to be a neutral. You are now connecting the neutral to every metal part of the appliance because you are also trying to use it for an egc. 



h22lude:

here is what I would do:

240 from the dryer recep and a separate cord for the 120 you can plug into any standard outlet. 

If you want GFCI either put a GFCI breaker in your panel or use a spa panel with integral GFCI but that is for the 240 only. You would have to either buy a plug in gfci for the 120, change the breaker on that circuit (whichever one you end up using), or go without. 

go to this page. It is an "images" page from Google for plug in gfci. You can see a variety of devices you could use for the purpose.

I can't say there isn't a plug in one for the 240 v recep but I have never seen one. That would allow you to have mobile gfci protection, if you could find such an animal, and all you would have to do is make a cord to plug into that and connect to your equipment. Same thing for the plug in 120 volt.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> h22lude:
> 
> here is what I would do:
> 
> ...


I do have a GFCI 120V outlet near by so the pump is covered. The 240 and 120 cords have always been separate. Not sure why a few people keep talking about them on the same circuit. I'm just talking about the element being on its own circuit.

So my thought of wiring the spa panel into the power cord doesn't work? Concrete_Joe is telling me it can't be done at all but I have other people telling me it is the same as if it was wired to the main panel. For something so small it seems like there are so many people giving me different answers lol

When typically hooking up a spa panel, the two hot wires and neutral wire go into the line in of the spa panel. The two hot wires go into the 50A GFI breaker and the neutral goes to the neutral bar. Then the 3 wires go out the spa panel to an outlet. The system would be plugged into that.

With my idea, the outlet and plug are just moved from between the system and the spa panel to the spa panel and the main panel.

A 3 wire dryer outlet doesn't have a ground but doesn't the neutral act as the ground in this case?


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

you want to wire a spa panel into a 3-prong receptacle via short wire and plug, this as the feed to the spa panel?? is that correct?

is there xx/3 in the 3-prong outlet box, or is it xx/2 wire ?? if it has xx/3 then you can use it but you would need to extend the gnd over to spa panel, and then bond spa panel to your gizmo chassis, etc.

btw, the feed hots into the spa panel do not go into the breaker, they terminate on bus bars. you put the load wires in the breaker, neutrals to neutral bar, gnd to gnd bar.

btw #2, if spa panel setup is cheaper than just a breaker, well, is your main panel a CH/Eaton or matches brand of spa panel & breaker??? hmmmm, well, buy the spa panel and simply put that breaker into your main panel........ 

these things are oddly priced, spa panel with gfci breaker is less than dbl pole gfci breaker......


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

nap said:


> I can't say there isn't a plug in one for the 240 v recep but I have never seen one. That would allow you to have mobile gfci protection, if you could find such an animal, and all you would have to do is make a cord to plug into that and connect to your equipment. Same thing for the plug in 120 volt.


Yesterday I Googled "30A 240V Inline GFCI". The majority of hits back were, you guessed it, from home brew sites with people going through this same process. :laughing:

Go ahead and try it. This rabbit hole is deep.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> Yesterday I Googled "30A 240V Inline GFCI". The majority of hits back were, you guessed it, from home brew sites with people going through this same process. :laughing:
> 
> Go ahead and try it. This rabbit hole is deep.


Well yeah I figured that. The dryer outlet is already installed and the laundry room is a good place to brew. Buying the cord is the simplest option. Not too many other things would need to use the dryer outlet and be on GFCI.


Right now I have a 3 wire dryer (which is hot, hot, neutral) and I have a brew system that has a 3 wire plug (hot, hot, ground). Forget about GFCI right now. If I plugged my system into the dryer outlet, will it be safely grounded?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

If the dryer recep is fed from the main service panel the ground and neutral are essentially the same since the 3rd wire connects to the neutral bus which is connected to the grounding electrode system within that same panel 

Before I type a ton of useless info, do you use that recep for a dryer?

Do you have more than one panel in the condo and if so, does the dryer feed from the main panel or s sub panel


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> If the dryer recep is fed from the main service panel the ground and neutral are essentially the same since the 3rd wire connects to the neutral bus which is connected to the grounding electrode system within that same panel
> 
> Before I type a ton of useless info, do you use that recep for a dryer?
> 
> Do you have more than one panel in the condo and if so, does the dryer feed from the main panel or s sub panel


I do. I was just planning on unplugging the dryer when I brewed.

No just one panel so the dryer feeds from the main.

Going to go back to my spa panel idea. Knowing what I do now, it seems like thsi would work.

Lets take the GFCI out of the equation for a second. Don't panic people, this is just for theory. Since the neutral acts as a ground, I could simply plug the element into the dryer outlet. The ground of the element would go into the neutral of the outlet.

Now let's add in GFCI. I could take the two hots from the outlet and put them into the line in of the spa panel. The neutral would go to the neutral/ground bus. 3 wires would normally come out of the breaker (two hot and one neutral) and the ground would come from the neutral/ground bus. Seeing as the element doesn't need neutral, coming out of the breaker would be just the two hot and the ground would be from the neutral/ground bus.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

ok, two words, neutral lift

the spa panel doesnt have bonded N and gnd terminals !

if the dryer out is xx/2 wire where exactly are you getting the neutral wire from?


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> ok, two words, neutral lift
> 
> the spa panel doesnt have bonded N and gnd terminals !
> 
> if the dryer out is xx/2 wire where exactly are you getting the neutral wire from?


Isn't a dryer 3 prong outlet 2 hot and 1 neutral? 4 prong would be 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground. Without it, how would the 120V motor and lights work?

I don't think 10/2 would be in code as you would need 10/2 with ground and a ground can't be used as a neutral to carry the 120V.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> Isn't a dryer 3 prong outlet 2 hot and 1 neutral? 4 prong would be 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground. Without it, how would the 120V motor and lights work?
> 
> I don't think 10/2 would be in code as you would need 10/2 with ground and a ground can't be used as a neutral to carry the 120V.


i would expect it to be, waiting on OP to confirm whats actually there, etc.

w/o xx/3 wire the bonding becomes a tad harder. really should bond spa panel and gizmo chassis to a gnd rod and tied back to panel gnd bar.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> i would expect it to be, waiting on OP to confirm whats actually there, etc.
> 
> w/o xx/3 wire the bonding becomes a tad harder. really should bond spa panel and gizmo chassis to a gnd rod and tied back to panel gnd bar.


I am the OP lol

I could open the outlet it but it may be tough because my dryer is in a tight spot. I definitely can't get my body behind it but I should be able to pull it forward and remove the outlet. Yes I will turn the breaker off first lol I'm using it now so after it is done I will open it up.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> I am the OP lol
> 
> I could open the outlet it but it may be tough because my dryer is in a tight spot. I definitely can't get my body behind it but I should be able to pull it forward and remove the outlet. Yes I will turn the breaker off first lol


my bad. too many windows open.

just check the panel for the 220v wire, should be white wire.

but as i mentioned, buy the cheap spa gfci panel, put that breaker in the main panel, move N wire to breaker, breaker pigtail to N bar. done....... no ?

i would still bond down the gizmo chassis to something good, gnd rod, or some other bare that gets back to main panel gnd bar, etc.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> my bad. too many windows open.
> 
> just check the panel for the 220v wire, should be white wire.
> 
> ...


The spa panel has a 50A breaker were as I need a 30A breaker.

Well if the neutral wire acts as a ground like people have said, the element has the ground wire and the element is grounded to the pot as well. So wouldn't that go back to the main?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> h22lude;1620153]I do. I was just planning on unplugging the dryer when I brewed.
> 
> No just one panel so the dryer feeds from the main.


ok. There is no effective difference between a neutral and a ground on a 3 wire dryer plug then. While the dryer uses it as a neutral as well as a ground, in the panel they are bonded to the same point so it functions as either.


to be legal you should mark the neut/ground as a ground when using it as a ground and technically you need to replace the NEMA 10-30 receptacle with a NEMA 6-30 receptacle as well,. 



> Going to go back to my spa panel idea. Knowing what I do now, it seems like thsi would work.


I just see no purpose for it myself but you are free to go hog wild with the idea though. As long as the equipment has a shut off switch (disconnect) I would just run a cord to the dryer outlet and be done with it. btw; the plug does act as a disconnect but I prefer to have a mechanical disconnect at the equipment. 



> Since the neutral acts as a ground, I could simply plug the element into the dryer outlet. The ground of the element would go into the neutral of the outlet.


yes


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> The spa panel has a 50A breaker were as I need a 30A breaker.
> 
> Well if the neutral wire acts as a ground like people have said, the element has the ground wire and the element is grounded to the pot as well. So wouldn't that go back to the main?


ok,... yikes. stop bickering over ~$20. spa panel is what, ~$70. a 30a dbl pole gfci is what ~$80-$90.

not sure posters keep saying use the neutral as gnd. i suggest not. go the gfci route, whatever way you want (spa panel, breaker in main, whatever), use the two hots on your gizmo heaters, and then bond the chassis to something that is gnd. this will prevent the chassis from floating high waiting for a path to bite, etc.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> ok. There is no effective difference between a neutral and a ground on a 3 wire dryer plug then. While the dryer uses it as a neutral as well as a ground, in the panel they are bonded to the same point so it functions as either.
> 
> 
> to be legal you should mark the neut/ground as a ground when using it as a ground and technically you need to replace the NEMA 10-30 receptacle with a NEMA 6-30 receptacle as well,.
> ...


The controller does have a manual on/off switch on it to shut the system down.



concrete_joe said:


> ok,... yikes. stop bickering over ~$20. spa panel is what, ~$70. a 30a dbl pole gfci is what ~$80-$90.
> 
> not sure posters keep saying use the neutral as gnd. i suggest not. go the gfci route, whatever way you want (spa panel, breaker in main, whatever), use the two hots on your gizmo heaters, and then bond the chassis to something that is gnd. this will prevent the chassis from floating high waiting for a path to bite, etc.


When did I ever "bicker" over $20. I'm trying to figure out a way to be able to take thsi with my places and still have GFCI, hence the spa panel plug route. You're the one that told me to buy the spa panel and replace the dryer breaker with that one. I never said I wanted to do it that way. That is actually not something anyone should do. Never replace a 30A breaker with a 50A one.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> not sure posters keep saying use the neutral as gnd..


because the neutral on a 10-30 receptacle that is fed from a service panel is effectively a ground. In the panel, the grounds and neutrals are actually connected together. In many residential panels you will see neutrals and grounds connected to the very same terminal strip. 

what makes it neutral in regards to the dryer is because of the 120 v use of the dryer. That means it is a current carrying conductor due to that. If you are using straight 240 there is no current on the 3rd wire so it can be a ground. 


to change what the OP has from a 120/240 (two hots and a neutral) circuit to a 240 volt circuit (two hots and a ground) is to change the receptacle from a NEMA 10-30 to a NEMA 6-30. Then mark the white wire with green tape. That is all there is to it. You need not change anything else. 

the only difference between a NEMA 10-30 and a NEMA 3-30 is the shape of the prongs of the plug and recep.

and your bonding the vessel to a ground; guess what, there is already one right there in the circuit already. You suggesting he run a separate ground to a rod or whatever is so unnecessary.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

spa panels can be had with non 50amp breaker, btw.

if you mark the neutral with green tape then that wire should not be use as current carrying, so what happens when you plug the dryer back in ???


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

btw: I have found some inline 240 v 30 amp gfci devices but they are $150. here are less expensive methods available.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> spa panels can be had with non 50amp breaker, btw.
> 
> if you mark the neutral with green tape then that wire should not be use as current carrying, so what happens when you plug the dryer back in ???


it creates a black hole and the world gets sucked in. 

always remember to mark wires properly or we all die.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> spa panels can be had with non 50amp breaker, btw.
> 
> if you mark the neutral with green tape then that wire should not be use as current carrying, so what happens when you plug the dryer back in ???


I may not be searching for the right thing but the lowest GFCI spa panel I can find at a big box store is 40A. Maybe they sell 30A ones at specialty stores.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

h22lude said:


> I may not be searching for the right thing but the lowest GFCI spa panel I can find at a big box store is 40A. Maybe they sell 30A ones at specialty stores.




If you are using an existing circuit, the breaker in that circuit will limit the current to whatever that breaker is. The spa panel would provide a GFCI protection but it would not act as an overcurrent device since the breaker in the panel is lower amps.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> If you are using an existing circuit, the breaker in that circuit will limit the current to whatever that breaker is. The spa panel would provide a GFCI protection but it would not act as an overcurrent device since the breaker in the panel is lower amps.


Oh yeah I did know that. I was replying to concrete_joe who told me to buy a spa panel because it is cheaper and put that breaker into the slot where my dryer's breaker is now. That would mean finding a 30A spa panel which I can't find. 40A is the lowest at HD and Lowes.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

Was it disclosed if the panel feeding your dryer outlet is the main, with N-G bonded? I read back a little, and didn't see that.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> Was it disclosed if the panel feeding your dryer outlet is the main, with N-G bonded? I read back a little, and didn't see that.


Yes it is the main panel.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> I may not be searching for the right thing but the lowest GFCI spa panel I can find at a big box store is 40A. Maybe they sell 30A ones at specialty stores.


ok, why not just skip the spa panel? just buy a 30A gfi breaker, gnd bond the gizmo chassis. its easy, no N to worry about, etc etc.

or, save the ~$20, buy spa panel, pop out the breaker, return it to store for a 30A....... you simply bought the wrong amp size breaker and want to swap it for a 30A, etc......

really not sure why this has gone ~111 posts when the answer is just buy a gfi breaker.




nap said:


> If you are using an existing circuit, the breaker in that circuit will limit the current to whatever that breaker is. The spa panel would provide a GFCI protection but it would not act as an overcurrent device since the breaker in the panel is lower amps.


very valid point, but costs were thrown into his posts. panel + mounting + wire + plug + receptacle has to be more than just buying a 30a dbl pole gfi breaker. probably will take a few hrs to do the spa panel setup, while swapping breaker in panel, well i dunno, maybe 15min.


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## Desertdrifter (Dec 10, 2009)

concrete_joe said:


> really not sure why this has gone ~111 posts


Because everyone, including you has an extra $.02 to toss in as the right way to do it.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

clw1963 said:


> Because everyone, including you has an extra $.02 to toss in as the right way to do it.


i never said right way. 

_30A gfi/costs/easy_ were the requirements.

run that through the 'ol how-to calculator and i get "_buy a 30a gfi breaker_". :thumbsup:

what do you get?


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

h22lude, good luck with your brew dilemma. 
Spa panel with a 50 GFI is your best bet in my opinion. OCP by the existing 30 breaker. Portable and cheap. When you leave it goes with you. You could also spend a couple of hours perusing homebrewtalk.com in their electric brewing section for similar debates. All grain or partial mash? What size boil? What type of beer? I've been brewing for about four years now.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

petey_c said:


> h22lude, good luck with your brew dilemma.
> Spa panel with a 50 GFI is your best bet in my opinion. OCP by the existing 30 breaker. Portable and cheap. When you leave it goes with you. You could also spend a couple of hours perusing homebrewtalk.com in their electric brewing section for similar debates. All grain or partial mash? What size boil? What type of beer? I've been brewing for about four years now.


I'm 99% sure I'm going the spa panel route. Cheap, easy, works and portable. I posted on HBT and got the same exact thing I got here lol

I've been doing 5 gallon AG with a cooler mash tun and pot with burner. With the new set up I can do up to 10 gallons. My beer selection is all over the map. I really don't brew much based on season. I may do a strong beer for winter and a lighter beer for summer. Right now I have a dry stout in primary. I think my first batch with the new set up will be something easy and light to test it out. Maybe a cream ale or golden ale. I've been brewing for about 4 years myself.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> I'm 99% sure I'm going the spa panel route. Cheap, easy, works and portable. I posted on HBT and got the same exact thing I got here lol
> 
> I've been doing 5 gallon AG with a cooler mash tun and pot with burner. With the new set up I can do up to 10 gallons. My beer selection is all over the map. I really don't brew much based on season. I may do a strong beer for winter and a lighter beer for summer. Right now I have a dry stout in primary. I think my first batch with the new set up will be something easy and light to test it out. Maybe a cream ale or golden ale. I've been brewing for about 4 years myself.


can you list for us the parts (with costs) you need to wire in this spa panel. and then can you let us know how long it took to install it.

how is a spa panel "portable"?

if its portable you want, then why not a inline gfi 240v 30a power cord? now thats portable.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> can you list for us the parts (with costs) you need to wire in this spa panel. and then can you let us know how long it took to install it.
> 
> how is a spa panel "portable"?
> 
> if its portable you want, then why not a inline gfi 240v 30a power cord? now thats portable.


1 50A spa panel. 1 30A 3 prong dryer plug. It will cost me $76.94 plus tax. I haven't made it yet because I need the element to wire it but I assume no more than 10 minutes.

I'm not sure you are getting what we are talking about. First of all, a GFCI 30A power cord is over $150 and that is usually for just 4 feet and they are hard to find in 30A/240V. What makes it portable is I am basically making a GFCI inline power cord. The element is wired to the out of the spa panel. A 3 prong cord is wired to the in. Easy inline GFCI.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

This thread is simply amazing... lol...


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

Here's another curve ball. The spa panel/GFCI installed inline with the heating element is the best option.

The GFCI breaker in the main panel will not work properly with the dryer, and heating element using the existing 3 wire, and receptacle. Many, including myself, offered that advice. It's not guaranteed to work under all circumstances.

Here's the problem. If you install the GFCI breaker in the panel, you'd have to connect the neutral from the 10-30r receptacle to the breaker, and pigtail to the neutral bus. That may be fine for the dryer. Unbalanced loads from the dryer should return through the breaker, and it holds. If there's a ground fault at the bonded dryer, it may only flow back through the neutral, through the GFCI, and not be picked up as a ground fault as it's balanced as far as the breaker knows. The breaker would trip on over current, not ground fault, if the circuit is truly isolated. With the bond at the dryer, and no EGC, GFI protection is limited to ground faults between the dryer line circuits, and another external ground point. Grab a hot and the dryer, you're going to get buzzed, and the GFCI won't trip.

The same is true with the heater. If you wired the 10-30P heater plug so the 3rd prong is supposed to be a ground, assuming it will bond the kettle to facilitate GFCI operation, you've done nothing but give a path for stray current to pass back through the GFCI breaker in the panel. Once again, a fault would be seen by the breaker as a balanced load, unless the fault current was actually being passed through something other than the vat, and whatever is bonded to it. If it were wired as stated above, the vat was isolated by carpet, and you dunked a hot wire in the water, the breaker wouldn't open until the overcurrent limit was exceeded. The current would pass from the hot, through the vat, back through the third prong to the GFCI breaker, and appear as balanced to the breaker.

A properly wired GFCI breaker in the main panel offers no GF protection for this application.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

stickboy1375 said:


> This thread is simply amazing... lol...


Not really sure why I keep answering concrete_joe. It is like I am speaking another language.

Brew system is on the way. I'll be brewing hopefully next weekend. And then the following weekend, since it will be portable, I'll brew at my buddy's house...just because I can...because it is portable.



Vegas Sparky said:


> Here's another curve ball. The spa panel/GFCI installed inline with the heating element is the best option.


Good thing that was my final answer lol


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> This thread is simply amazing... lol...


I know GFCI protection is not required by code for this application, and you insist it offers no benefit. That doesn't mean it isn't justified. The mfgrs "strong recommendation" is a complete crock. He should clearly state it one way, or the other.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> I know GFCI protection is not required by code for this application, and you insist it offers no benefit. That doesn't mean it isn't justified. The mfgrs "strong recommendation" is a complete crock. He should clearly state it one way, or the other.


I don't think he was talking about me using GFCI. I assumed he was talking more about people still not understanding the spa panel and letting it be.

To the companies defense, they don't make the element so they have to cover their a$$.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

How much power does the 120v controller pull? The electronics won't be much. I think I read a pump is involved? I'm sure it's small. You may have enough available load leftover after the heater to add a 20A, 120V GFCI breaker into the spa panel to feed the controller/pump also. Then it's one cord to plug into the wall. 

Maybe we'll get another 9 pages out of this discussion. LOL


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> How much power does the 120v controller pull? The electronics won't be much. I think I read a pump is involved? I'm sure it's small. You may have enough available load leftover after the heater to add a 20A, 120V GFCI breaker into the spa panel to feed the controller/pump also. Then it's one cord to plug into the wall.
> 
> Maybe we'll get another 9 pages out of this discussion. LOL


The controller is on the 240V. The pump is on the 120V. Two separate circuits. Company did it that way because they noticed GFCI breakers tripping when the pump was running.

I'm going to leave it as two circuits to make it easy. No more crazy discussions, please lol


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

so, how long does it take to make a batch?


where do you live?


can you make enough for everybody that offered advice on your issue?


Can ya stop by and give some progress reports and let us know how this worked out and any problems that arise out of the install?

Good luck on your brewery.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

Will you at least get a spa panel that can accept an extra breaker, "just in case"? :jester:

I don't think this one's over, except for maybe nap being done with it. :laughing:


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> so, how long does it take to make a batch?
> 
> 
> where do you live?
> ...


Most beers take 2 weeks to ferment and 2 weeks to carbonate.

Offered advice, yes. Argued with everything everyone said, no lol

Yes when it is up and running I will definitely come back and post my findings.



Vegas Sparky said:


> Will you at least get a spa panel that can accept an extra breaker, "just in case"? :jester:
> 
> I don't think this one's over, except for maybe nap being done with it. :laughing:


Yup I will do that. I think we are done now, right?!?!?! :laughing:


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

stickboy1375 said:


> This thread is simply amazing... lol...





h22lude said:


> Yup I will do that. I think we are done now, right?!?!?! :laughing:


If you're confident in your understanding of how to wire the spa panel. :thumbsup:


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

Vegas Sparky said:


> If you're confident in your understanding of how to wire the spa panel. :thumbsup:


I have an easy to read diagram lol It was made by a poster on homebrewtalk.com. It has the 3 wires going in which I have but it had 4 going out, which I don't need. I don't need the neutral going out. The yellow is neutral so on the out side, I'm just not going to put anything there.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

h22lude said:


> Offered advice, yes. Argued with everything everyone said, no lol
> g:


which category do I fall in to?

just a thought; 

Sam Adams is a small craft brewer that became big. If you happen to have similar success, might I suggest the name and slogan:


Lude Beer

I know where your mind went. We're not that kind of lewd.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> which category do I fall in to?
> 
> just a thought;
> 
> ...


You gave advice :thumbsup:

I like the play on words lol If I make it big I'll be sure to come back and get electrical advice for the brewery. That should be a 500 page thread


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

Vegas Sparky said:


> Will you at least get a spa panel that can accept an extra breaker, "just in case"? :jester:
> 
> I don't think this one's over, except for maybe nap being done with it. :laughing:


Eaton has one, i use this for my actual Spa. it comes with the 50A gfi and has two open slots for 120v 20a branch circuits. 

to make it even more "simple" using spa panel, use one of the branch circuits for the 120v needs of the gizmo, etc.


so the diagram in post #129, you think its ok by NEC to tie the feed white to the load side green wire  ??


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

h22lude said:


> 1 50A spa panel. 1 30A 3 prong dryer plug. It will cost me $76.94 plus tax. I haven't made it yet because I need the element to wire it but I assume no more than 10 minutes.
> 
> I'm not sure you are getting what we are talking about. First of all, a GFCI 30A power cord is over $150 and that is usually for just 4 feet and they are hard to find in 30A/240V. What makes it portable is I am basically making a GFCI inline power cord. The element is wired to the out of the spa panel. A 3 prong cord is wired to the in. Easy inline GFCI.



i'd say way off, but ok.

are you hard wiring gizmo to spa panel? do you have two heating elements or just one ??


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> to make it even more "simple" using spa panel, use one of the branch circuits for the 120v needs of the gizmo, etc.


well, then we are back to the problem of combining the neutral with the ground. Given what the OP has given us, I believe his best action would be to incorporate the spa panel plugged into the dryer outlet and a separate plug for the 120 volt power plugged into any local general use recep.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

nap said:


> well, then we are back to the problem of combining the neutral with the ground. Given what the OP has given us, I believe his best action would be to incorporate the spa panel plugged into the dryer outlet and a separate plug for the 120 volt power plugged into any local general use recep.


am i missing something??? the 120v would have same dilemma as the 240v gfi from the spa panel, there is no gnd wire. if the spa gnd terminal block was bonded out to a real gnd nearby you can use that as the gnd on the gizmo chassis and the gnd pin of the 120v outlet or hard wire, etc, thus preserving the N that comes from the dryer plug, which would not be used for the gizmo, but would be used for the 120v, etc.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

I'm done trying to explain this to you. You really need to reread what has been said the last few pages.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> am i missing something??? the 120v would have same dilemma as the 240v gfi from the spa panel, there is no gnd wire. if the spa gnd terminal block was bonded out to a real gnd nearby you can use that as the gnd on the gizmo chassis and the gnd pin of the 120v outlet or hard wire, etc, thus preserving the N that comes from the dryer plug, which would not be used for the gizmo, but would be used for the 120v, etc.


You could do that but why? Have you ever tried to find an adequate connection to the grounding electrode system in a building? I have to admit your method is actually code compliant where mine is a bit shady (but only due to the receptacle not being the proper receptacle) but in ease of installation (which the OP did state he wanted), the separate sources is the way to go.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

The pump has its own 120V plug that will be plugged into a bathroom GFCI outlet.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

So I got the brew system in today. Went to HD to get the spa panel and the 3 prong plug. Wired it all up. Took about 20 to 25 minutes. Probably could have had it done in 15 to 20 but my wire stripper broke so I had to use a razor blade and went slow so I didn't cut any wiring.

Remember, I have 3 wires going in and 3 going out. The element just needs HHG. The left grey wires are the power in (the middle one is the neutral, in this case the ground). The right group (black, white and green) is the power going to the brew system. Maybe hard to see what I did so I'll explain.

The two outside grey wires are going to the two hot terminals. The middle grey wire is going to the neutral terminal under the neutral bus. The neutral bus has a wire (which I just used extra wire from my 3 prong cable) going to the ground bus to the right. The white curly wire came with the spa panel which I left. The black and white wires went to the two hot terminals on the breaker. The green neutral wire went to the ground bus. Using the diagram I posted earlier, since I don't have neutral, I left out the yellow wire going from the breaker. How does this look to everyone? Oh and the dryer plug came with that metal holder to stop the wire from being plugged. I figured I would use it.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

i suspect some will point out the issues....... for me i would stay away from that gizmo.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> i suspect some will point out the issues....... for me i would stay away from that gizmo.


And we are back to this. You are not telling me anything. You have yet to tell me why this is different from hard wiring.

With all that aside, I would like to know if my wiring is incorrect so I can fix it.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

You do know that an extension cord can not be used in the manner you have it.
It needs to be an approved wiring method, such as romex or conduit.


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## Vegas Sparky (Jan 6, 2015)

The clamp on the gray cord should be installed so the clamp and screws are on the outside of the enclosure. You need a clamp on the red cord.

Behind the neutral pigtail it looks like you have a bonding bar. Its the silverish piece attached by a single screw to the enclosure. Swing that around, and land it under a screw on the neutral bus, while the other end is still attached with the screw to the enclosure. You can then omit the gray wire jumper from N-G. The hots look correct.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

jbfan said:


> You do know that an extension cord can not be used in the manner you have it.
> It needs to be an approved wiring method, such as romex or conduit.


What extension cord?



Vegas Sparky said:


> The clamp on the gray cord should be installed so the clamp and screws are on the outside of the enclosure. You need a clamp on the red cord.
> 
> Behind the neutral pigtail it looks like you have a bonding bar. Its the silverish piece attached by a single screw to the enclosure. Swing that around, and land it under a screw on the neutral bus, while the other end is still attached with the screw to the enclosure. You can then omit the gray wire jumper from N-G. The hots look correct.


Clamp fixed. I do need to buy one for the red wire and will do so before firing it up.

Either way works correct? The way I have it set up now, the brew system would be grounded going from the ground bus to the neutral bus then to the main panel. This also grounds the panel since the ground bus is attached.

Using the ground strap, wouldn't the ground go from the system to the ground bus through the strap to the panel then to the neutral bus to the main panel?


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

you technically dont have a ground anywhere, you have two hots and a neutral from the dryer outlet.

my post #140....... was just gonna let others point out the issues.


also, if you're gonna use white wire as a hot wire then you should label it as such. maybe put a piece of red heat-shrink tubing over it on each end (if possible).

why did that red cord come with B/W/G wires for 240v use ?? as is it's not NEC compliant.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Isn't the orange wire an extension cord?


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

jbfan said:


> Isn't the orange wire an extension cord?


i dunno, i thought that came with the gizmo as the gray 3-wire is a std dryer plug extension cord, etc.

thus far, way more than 10min into it, and, still not compliant.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

concrete_joe said:


> you technically dont have a ground anywhere, you have two hots and a neutral from the dryer outlet.
> 
> my post #140....... was just gonna let others point out the issues.
> 
> ...


We went over this already. On a 3 prong dryer outlet, neutral and ground are the same wire. If the circuit is only using 240V, the neutral doesn't have live current and becomes the ground.

The white and black are hots from the company. I will mark it red though. Thanks



jbfan said:


> Isn't the orange wire an extension cord?


The red one attached to the breaker going out? No that's not an extension cord. I could see how it may look like one though. It is #10 wiring to a heating element.



concrete_joe said:


> i dunno, i thought that came with the gizmo as the gray 3-wire is a std dryer plug extension cord, etc.
> 
> thus far, way more than 10min into it, and, still not compliant.


Read my post with the pictures. It took me about 20 minutes to wire it all because my wire stripper broke and had to do it all by hand.

What isn't it compliant? Instead of saying this is wrong over and over again, why don't you explain yourself? Telling someone they are wrong and not saying why is no help at all. If you want to help, that would be great. If not, just don't reply to this thread.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

It needs a clamp in the KO.


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

jbfan said:


> It needs a clamp in the KO.


Yup, that is on my list when I go to HD today. Thanks


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

concrete_joe said:


> you technically dont have a ground anywhere, you have two hots and a neutral from the dryer outlet.
> 
> my post #140....... was just gonna let others point out the issues.
> 
> ...


so Joe, tell me the difference, theoretically and functionally, the difference between the neutral in the dryer recept and a ground because to make the outlet code compliant, all he would have to do is swap the recep out to a 6-30R (240 volt 30 amp receptacle). The "neutral" would become a ground due to that change. 


and your color issue of the cord; seriously? Give it up., It isn't part of the abode so the NEC doesn't apply./


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## h22lude (May 10, 2013)

nap said:


> so Joe, tell me the difference, theoretically and functionally, the difference between the neutral in the dryer recept and a ground because to make the outlet code compliant, all he would have to do is swap the recep out to a 6-30R (240 volt 30 amp receptacle). The "neutral" would become a ground due to that change.
> 
> 
> and your color issue of the cord; seriously? Give it up., It isn't part of the abode so the NEC doesn't apply./


I gave up on him pages ago lol I think he just comes on here to annoy people and start arguments. He tells me thinks are wrong but never says what.

My spa panel was approved by a man that has been working as an electrician, working with electrical components and as a service manager at IBM for 60 years. He now helps a large brew store with their electrical brewing supplies. I'm going to say I believe him more than concrete_joe


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I will always listen to just about anybody. Use the good, discard the rest. Joe has made some good points but alas, also some not so good points. 

I write it off as being overly zealous more than anything else.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

nap said:


> so Joe, tell me the difference, theoretically and functionally, the difference between the neutral in the dryer recept and a ground because to make the outlet code compliant, all he would have to do is swap the recep out to a 6-30R (240 volt 30 amp receptacle). The "neutral" would become a ground due to that change.
> 
> 
> and your color issue of the cord; seriously? Give it up., It isn't part of the abode so the NEC doesn't apply./


no issue with color of cord.......... just cant have that cord in there period........ the color issue was current carrying conductor.

ok, swap the outlet then........... and then where's the gnd wire ???


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> concrete_joe;1657105]no issue with color of cord.......... just cant have that cord in there period........ the color issue was current carrying conductor.


so, please tell me where the NEC controls this. Realize that the device is a portable appliance, just like a vacuum cleaner. 





> ok, swap the outlet then........... and then where's the gnd wire ???


you are missing the point. 


In the current configuration of the recep, the terminal designated as the neutral is functionally a ground conductor since it is connected to either the combined neutral/ground terminal strip or the neutral terminals that are bonded to the grounding electrode system in the panel since it is a service panel. 

but tell me, in the current configuration, if a dryer with a 3 wire plug is plugged into the receptacle, where is the ground then? Where do you connect the ground terminal in the dryer?

Oh, and realize, a neutral is a current carrying conductor. If you ever doubt it, put yourself in circuit with a neutral and let me know (if you survive) how that works out for you. 

I also challenge you to find "neutral" in the NEC in reference to a conductor. I think you might find it referred to as a grounded conductor (not to be confused with a grounding conductor which is commonly referred to as a "ground")


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