# Canadians, take note! Viega Manabloc



## 9Fingers (May 21, 2013)

Hi, I live in Ontario and have been thinking about using the Manabloc system for my house. How have things worked out for you with you bloc? Would you do it again? Thanks for your post.


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

9Fingers said:


> Hi, I live in Ontario and have been thinking about using the Manabloc system for my house. How have things worked out for you with you bloc? Would you do it again? Thanks for your post.



Hi 9Fingers:

Ok, I'm about half-way through the installation. Everything is working well and I'm pleased with the installation. There is one point that I'm not pleased with and it has nothing to do with the Manabloc. At the end of the feed line, I had ordered (from sharkbite) a right angle between PEX and the toilet infeed. I regret this. Instead I'd recommend that you use the old stainless-braided feed pipe with a local shut of valve in place of the direct PEX to toilet connection. (I hope I got this straight ;-)

Yes, I would recommend this to all but my worst enemy. That said, tips include:
- I had to replace my water heater and some of the crud from the old water heater traveled down the PEX and got caught in my new kitchen sink faucet. That involved several weeks of swapping parts and the kitchen faucet has never fully recovered. It seems that if there were copper pipe, the crud would get caught on the irregular surfaces in the pipe. In the PEX, there are no irregular surfaces so the crud made it all the way down the longest feed in the system.
- At no point in my system do I use joints, elbows or "T"s. Instead, I use the "round corner technique" with "bend supports". This provides an excellent consistent and balanced flow throughout the whole system. SKU: A5250500 at pexsupply.com
- The 3/4" feed from the municipal supply is excellent for a family of 2 and up to 20 guests at a time.
- I have also identified another problem in the faucets for my old bathroom shower. There is a temperature balance in the old shower control? It will need recalibrating. The velocity of water in the pex is greater than in copper so your shower will get hotter quicker.
- I also installed all of my water sub-system in a column. My two bathrooms are stacked one on top of the other and the ManaBloc is built into the wall next to the downstairs bathroom. This keeps the feed lines as short as possible. This is a philosophy that I highly recommend.
- I had to install my new sewer line at the same time that I was installing the Manabloc. I built an under-slab feed from the municipal supply to the location of the Manabloc. It was a pain to do. I had to cut a trough across the full width of the basement floor. It was well worth it. My objective is to keep all hot and cold runs the same length and as short as possible and it is working beautifully.

This is all I can think of for the moment. If I can think of anything else, I'll ad it, then.

Alltunbs


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## 9Fingers (May 21, 2013)

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear you're happy with your choice and that some of the problems you've had we're because the pex has worked so well. 
Could you tell me how you got your stuff into Canada. When I spoke to pex supply, they said that they didn't ship to Canada. I saw that you used the U.S. Postal service and then Canada post, but could you give me a couple more details so I could do the same?

Thanks for your help. I wish that this stuff was available at reasonable prices here across the border. Even on Amazon.ca the prices are inflated and the shipping time was 1-3 MONTHS!!


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi 9Fingers:

Well, interesting developments huh?



9Fingers said:


> Thanks for the update. Glad to hear you're happy with your choice and that some of the problems you've had we're because the pex has worked so well.


Yup. Can't complain ;-)



9Fingers said:


> Could you tell me how you got your stuff into Canada. When I spoke to pex supply, they said that they didn't ship to Canada. I saw that you used the U.S. Postal service and then Canada post, but could you give me a couple more details so I could do the same?


Ok, I went and checked the PexSupply.com website and they have changed their Canadian policy. Here`s what I think is happening: US retailers will sell anywhere to anyone. The only exception is when someone with clout puts the fear of god into them. The Canadian distributor (probably the one that charges 4x the US retail price) probably complained to Viega that US retailers were cutting into his profit margins and would sue if US retailers continued to ship to Canada. I`m not surprised. If you pay $50 for something, add $50 in shipping and excise costs and sell it for $400 wholesale, you`ll fight to keep your markup.

There had to be some real threat for PexSupply to stop selling to Canada. It was a major part of their business. I bet when that edict got passed down from on high more than a few people lost their jobs and the profit margin took a significant drop. Talk nice to them and I bet there's a solution -- see below.



9Fingers said:


> Thanks for your help. I wish that this stuff was available at reasonable prices here across the border. Even on Amazon.ca the prices are inflated and the shipping time was 1-3 MONTHS!!


Now, you`ve got to get creative. There are forwarding organizations all along the border. Are you located within an hour or so drive of the border? Buy in the US, ship to the forwarder address in the US, go picke it up or they will transship to you in Canada. There are several in Ogdensburg, NY and I'm sure all along the border. Also, plumbing supply houses in US centres all along the border are quite prepared to assist Canadian clients. That's how many of them are surviving at the moment.

Failing that, I searched "us forwarding to canada" in google and came up with a variety of options all vying for Canadian business. A RedFlagDeals thread specifically discusses cross-border shopping.

Interesting. I'll have to talk to the people at PExSupply and see if I can still get support.

Allthunbs


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## Seattle2k (Mar 26, 2012)

Did you install the pex right up to your hot water tank, or did you leave a few feet of copper between them?


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Seattle2k said:


> Did you install the pex right up to your hot water tank, or did you leave a few feet of copper between them?


Hi Seattle2k:

Normally, I would use a >12" riser above the hot water tank. However, I consulted local "experts" and they recommended direct attachment. I'm using 3/4" ID PEX to and from the water heater. I also have no inspectors to deal with which is a separate nightmare.

Be careful when you connect to the water heater. I used bend supports to reduce the stress on the water heater connections. It might also help to use a steel pipe to reduce bend stress if necessary. If you have to go this route, make sure you don't chafe the PEX or allow the PEX to abrade when it expands and contracts. Also note that the hot line will move differently than the cold one.

HTH

Allthunbs


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## HitLines (Aug 31, 2009)

Hi Allthunbs!

I'm about to re-plumbing my entire house, replacing all of the galvanized and copper pipe with PEX tubing and adding a 36-port manifold. I'm waiting on a new water heater to show up first before I start. One might as well replace everything right?

When you did your homeruns from the bloc did you add any air chambers (thus introducing crimps and tees)? From what I've read, they are not necessary with PEX as it will flex enough to avoid any hammering. Currently, I have air chambers on the showers below the fixtures and for the sinks, they are continued above. I'd rather keep the connections as simple homeruns.


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi Hitlines:



HitLines said:


> I'm about to re-plumbing my entire house, replacing all of the galvanized and copper pipe with PEX tubing and adding a 36-port manifold. I'm waiting on a new water heater to show up first before I start. One might as well replace everything right?


Ok, if it ain't broke don't fix it ;-) That said, when I didn't replace my water heater, it crapped out and sent crud through my lines anyway. Maybe it's a good idea to replace the water heater, especially when it's >6 yrs old.



HitLines said:


> When you did your homeruns from the bloc did you add any air chambers (thus introducing crimps and tees)? From what I've read, they are not necessary with PEX as it will flex enough to avoid any hammering. Currently, I have air chambers on the showers below the fixtures and for the sinks, they are continued above. I'd rather keep the connections as simple homeruns.


Yes, I did. I soldered up a copper "T" with an inlet for PEX, a valve for the washing machine and a hammer arrester. In spite of the PEX, when I turn on and off the bathroom sink faucets, I can still hear slight hammering. 

Now, I am curious. I have a 18-port manabloc which is perfect for two three piece bathrooms and a kitchen. I take an outside tap off of the kitchen cold water feed and dishwasher off the hot water feed. Are you controlling two houses? In which case I would use two 18s rather than a 36.

HTH

Allthunbs


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## HitLines (Aug 31, 2009)

Whilst it's not broken, the last service date written in sharpie on the side of the tank was 1996.  I've replaced a few elements and valves since then so but it's time for a new one.

I was looking at a Bradford White MI5036FBN-337 50gal NG from Amazon for $500 shipped. The reviews seem mixed on Amazon but much better on pexsupply. Anyone have good or bad experiences with BW?

Thanks for the note about hammering. It's something I will consider.

The house is a good size with an attached mother-in-law unit off of the back. For the main house, the kitchen alone will use 7 ports. I treat it like an electrical box and don't want to run out of space. I might as well have room for expansion.


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi Hitlines:



HitLines said:


> Whilst it's not broken, the last service date written in sharpie on the side of the tank was 1996.  I've replaced a few elements and valves since then so but it's time for a new one.


If you have soft water, check your anode. The date of manufacturer should be on the ID plate. Normal White water heaters up here have followed that rule for years.



HitLines said:


> I was looking at a Bradford White MI5036FBN-337 50gal NG from Amazon for $500 shipped. The reviews seem mixed on Amazon but much better on pexsupply. Anyone have good or bad experiences with BW?





HitLines said:


> Thanks for the note about hammering. It's something I will consider.





HitLines said:


> The house is a good size with an attached mother-in-law unit off of the back. For the main house, the kitchen alone will use 7 ports. I treat it like an electrical box and don't want to run out of space. I might as well have room for expansion.


Yes, you but you have to remember, adding an electrical circuit is a hell of a lot easier than adding a plumbing fixture. You're not likely to add a bathroom on a whim. Besides, if you add an addition with separate bathrooms, you'll more likely want a sub distribution panel near the bathrooms/in the addition. You might also want to create local tankless water heaters rather than a central tank. I'd be more prepared to spend the money on a small 3/4" distribution panel at the municipal service entrance and distribute to smaller local panels in water columns throughout the house.

Hope this discussion helps.

Allthunbs


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

An old friend of mine has been a master plumber for about 45 years. He told me that in every case when he removed the cap in an old galvanized pipe used to suppress water hammer, it was full of water. Basically he thought they were BS.

I have a manifold home run system with no water hammer chambers, and I have no water hammer. You don't only not need them, they represent a potential leak, IMHO.


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi Jagans:



jagans said:


> An old friend of mine has been a master plumber for about 45 years. He told me that in every case when he removed the cap in an old galvanized pipe used to suppress water hammer, it was full of water. Basically he thought they were BS.


Ok, a bunch of stuff here. I agree, a hammer arrester can be a waste of time. However, I'm over a thousand miles and an international boundary away from any support. I put in hammer arresters (manufactured ones, not galvanized pipes) to provide some additional insurance that any shocks would not get to the Manabloc. 



jagans said:


> I have a manifold home run system with no water hammer chambers, and I have no water hammer. You don't only not need them, they represent a potential leak, IMHO.


There is another aspect of this and that is the PEX tubing will also act as arresters or at least shock absorbers. Except, in my case, I kept all of the PEX runs as short as possible. Some (the laundry room sink and the washing machine) are as short as 5'. Given the speed at which the washing machine can open and close its' valves, a bit of insurance is no waste. Also, I can't remember the cost of the hammer arresters that I bought but I think they're actually cheaper than a chunk of galvanized pipe.

Allthunbs


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Here is a little read on arrestors. Notice point #15 
http://www.siouxchief.com/Resource_/ProductMedia/133/Water Hammer FAQ 4-04.pdf


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

TheEplumber said:


> Here is a little read on arrestors. Notice point #15
> http://www.siouxchief.com/Resource_/ProductMedia/133/Water Hammer FAQ 4-04.pdf


Thanks E, Number 4 shows what people used to do, which is what my friend ran into. I guess the souix chief hammer arresters would work. As far as I know the only valves that close suddenly, as described for being the cause of hammer are dishwasher and clothes washer valves. I would think that unusually high water pressure could cause it too.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

jagans said:


> Thanks E, Number 4 shows what people used to do, which is what my friend ran into. I guess the souix chief hammer arresters would work. As far as I know the only valves that close suddenly, as described for being the cause of hammer are dishwasher and clothes washer valves. I would think that unusually high water pressure could cause it too.


My ice maker thumps- who would think a plumber would have water hammer issues....
Take a look at #14


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## jozabi (Jan 2, 2014)

I have been thinking of installing a Manabloc system for some time now. I am looking at a 30 port crimp manifold and will re-plumb my entire house. The delay is that I am waiting for the city who have planned to do some new water/sewer road work on my street which will happen within the next 3-4 months. I have worked out deal with the contractor to install a new 1" line from the street to the house. Once this happens I'll run a 1" line from the meter at the front of the house to the manifold. I'll order all supplies for Pex Supply and have it delivered to a UPS store in Buffalo and drive down and pick it up.


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## HitLines (Aug 31, 2009)

It's a great system Jozabi. I installed mine about 8 months ago, replacing a failing galvanized and copper system, and the new PEX has been working perfectly.

Here is a pic of the install while in progress. All of the copper seen above was removed.


Old pipes:


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## jozabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks for the follow up. Your system looks great. My budget to re-plumb my whole house is less than $2,000 US as I already have opened up a back wall right through to the second floor bathroom which runs right through the main floor kitchen. Everything else is available though the open ceiling in the basement. I can't wait to get started, I am just waiting on the city to start their road construction and get me my 1" service...


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## Ratman (Jan 4, 2014)

*Thanks Allthunbs*

I found your posts while researching pex manifolds. I've made one repair on my galvanized so I know I'm living on a time bomb, but wanted to make sure I do the best I can do on the manifold since this is the heart of the system.
So many plumbing parts are made in China-especially the plastics- it was a concern. Not to slam but I think the fittings or rings in the Zern lawsuit were China-made aluminum- which provides fuel for pex nay-sayers.
It came down to the Sioux Chief copper manifolds in series, or the Manabloc.
So how is the Manabloc holding up for you? Are the shutoffs stainless steel ball-type or other?
I've read where some reported leaks around the inlets over time, as well as the shutoff valves themselves- anything like that?
It does seem that Viega is the only company that is making the manifold with the full benefit of home run in mind- having combination 3/8 and 1/2 feed lines as an option.
Thanks in advance for your original posts and further updates.
(Also noticed some chat about installing pex up to the hot water tank- and believe this is fine for electric tanks but gas requires about 18" of metal to get 
the pex 6-8 inches past the flu)


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## jozabi (Jan 2, 2014)

I haven't installed the manifold as yet as I am waiting for the city to bring a 1" line to the meter. I'll post once have completed this project...


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## Ratman (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks, Jozabi. I wish I had planned ahead and done the outside first, too, but I do have to replace this galvanized time bomb- one section already failed so you know what that means.
I must have messed up the first part of my post as I was trying to get to Allthunbs since his system has been in for awhile.
Hitlines, yours looks good- are those the push on connections? Do the valves appear to be of sound quality?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

And this is better than copper how?


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## Ratman (Jan 4, 2014)

ddawg16, who knows? Time might prove it to be inferior to copper. Time might also prove soldered joints without lead to be inferior. Both have been used about the same period of time- although copper by far has been used much more extensively. I like the idea of no joints between manifold and fixture, but still- not sure.


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## JKeefe (Jan 4, 2013)

ddawg16 said:


> And this is better than copper how?


A few reasons:

1. Many fewer joints. Potential for no elbows or tees. This means many fewer potential points of failure.

2. While there is a cost premium, it is _much_ faster to install PEX than copper.

3. Ability to install new line, while still potentially challenging, is much easier than running copper in existing construction, and faster, because the PEX is flexible. Plus there is no need to turn off the water to any of the house while putting in something new.


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## HitLines (Aug 31, 2009)

Ratman said:


> So how is the Manabloc holding up for you? Are the shutoffs stainless steel ball-type or other?
> I've read where some reported leaks around the inlets over time, as well as the shutoff valves themselves- anything like that?
> It does seem that Viega is the only company that is making the manifold with the full benefit of home run in mind- having combination 3/8 and 1/2 feed lines as an option.
> Thanks in advance for your original posts and further updates.
> (Also noticed some chat about installing pex up to the hot water tank- and believe this is fine for electric tanks but gas requires about 18" of metal to get the pex 6-8 inches past the flu)


My manifold has been installed for 8mo so far with zero leaks at any of the connections. Each line is a complete home run with one end connected to the bloc and the other with a crimp to a shutoff valve at the fixture. No additional 90s or Ts were used and most turns were gradual or supported with a 90 brace (see the black supports). This pic is before all of the lines were nailed down and properly supported at the bloc.




For the hot water heater you will want to use a pair of the 3/4" FIP x 3/4" FIP, 18" Corrugated Stainless Steel Tube:


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## jozabi (Jan 2, 2014)

Why the corrugate stainless steel connection? I already have a tankless water heater which will be located within 4 feet of my manabloc manifold. Would you recommend that I find a 48" stainless steel connection?


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## Digitalfiend (Feb 9, 2015)

I have a quick question about this system. Can the incoming cold water supply be attached to the single port at the bottom instead of the top? I would assume so, but I can't find the installation manual for the Manabloc to confirm.

The only other thing holding me back from this system at the moment is the seeming lack of vendors and support here in Canada. The only place that I can find that sells Viega products is Amazon.ca and they don't have much of a selection in stock, which is worrisome and frustrating. For instance, I can buy a 24 port unit but can't buy the supply adapters because they are out of stock and no one else seems to carry them up here. Furthermore, I'd prefer an 18-port unit but that won't ship for 1-3 _months_. Argh. 

If Viega is indeed restricting US vendors from shipping parts up here, I'm not totally sure I want to support the company. The only other alternative is to order from the US and use a forwarding service. It's quite frustrating.

<rant>I still don't understand why so many Canadian websites look like they're from the late 90s-era of website design - static, no search capabilities, no pricing or information on availability. Ugh.</rant>


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Digitalfiend said:


> I have a quick question about this system. Can the incoming cold water supply be attached to the single port at the bottom instead of the top? I would assume so, but I can't find the installation manual for the Manabloc to confirm.


Ok, the cold water goes into the bottom. I put an extra shut-off valve at the bottom of the bloc just before the input. Then, at the top of the cold side (blue valves) I ran a 3/4" i.d. pex across to the input of the water heater. On the hot side, I ran a second 3/4" pex back to the hot side of the manabloc. Like this the cold and hot water are always balanced. I can have a shower and my wife puts on the dishwasher and I'm perfectly comfortable. I will notice a drop in flow but not a variation in temperature 



Digitalfiend said:


> The only other thing holding me back from this system at the moment is the seeming lack of vendors and support here in Canada. The only place that I can find that sells Viega products is Amazon.ca and they don't have much of a selection in stock, which is worrisome and frustrating. For instance, I can buy a 24 port unit but can't buy the supply adapters because they are out of stock and no one else seems to carry them up here. Furthermore, I'd prefer an 18-port unit but that won't ship for 1-3 _months_. Argh.


Absolutely. I have to point out that I purchased with the idea that I could get support from the U.S. vendor, overnight if necessary. It wasn't until sometime later that the Canadian distributor had a temper tantrum when he found out he couldn't buy a new yacht 5' longer than the old one.



Digitalfiend said:


> If Viega is indeed restricting US vendors from shipping parts up here, I'm not totally sure I want to support the company. The only other alternative is to order from the US and use a forwarding service. It's quite frustrating.


It's rather interesting. Viega is an European company with a manufacturing facility in the U.S. I wonder if we can purchase from vendors in England or France? Shipping might be a bit higher but the product shouldn't. After all the European market is 500 million people. That's a bigger market than the U.S.



Digitalfiend said:


> <rant>I still don't understand why so many Canadian websites look like they're from the late 90s-era of website design - static, no search capabilities, no pricing or information on availability. Ugh.</rant>


It's called lazyness and lack of research. You go on a web site and you get a banal imitation of what I was producing under HTML 1.0 (actually it didn't exist but you get the idea) back in 1990, that's before the internet was the internet. Nothing has changed since then in many vendors. The online vendors are the real joke. Very few are actually created by artists and even fewer are implemented by inventive programmers. I find very few web sites created for customers. Most are created to pad the programmer's pockets and do little to reflect the wishes and needs. I have a mantra "the shortest distance between the question and the answer" is the only path. I haven't seen it implemented on any site yet. Most are treating you as a captive client. The vendor has never realized that you can close a browser tab and shut down the transaction.

My rant too!

Allthunbs


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## jozabi (Jan 2, 2014)

*finished...*

I finished the install of my manifold and couldn't be more happy. The city ended up bringing in only a 3/4" line from the street. The install was easy. I used a home run style, no joints or t's, direct from the manifold to each outlet. My total cost was less than $1,000. I purchased the manifold from a US distributor and had it shipped to a UPS store in Buffalo where I picked it up while shopping. I purchased the pex and fittings at Home Depot/Lowes.


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## Digitalfiend (Feb 9, 2015)

Allthunbs said:


> Ok, the cold water goes into the bottom. I put an extra shut-off valve at the bottom of the bloc just before the input. Then, at the top of the cold side (blue valves) I ran a 3/4" i.d. pex across to the input of the water heater. On the hot side, I ran a second 3/4" pex back to the hot side of the manabloc. Like this the cold and hot water are always balanced. I can have a shower and my wife puts on the dishwasher and I'm perfectly comfortable. I will notice a drop in flow but not a variation in temperature


I was hoping that was the case. I've got a whole house filter to incorporate into the mix, so I think I'll tee off of the main line for the outside hoses (don't need to filter lawn water haha) and then into the filter, to the manifold, and to the tankless and back loop (keeping it as short as possible.)



Allthunbs said:


> Absolutely. I have to point out that I purchased with the idea that I could get support from the U.S. vendor, overnight if necessary. It wasn't until sometime later that the Canadian distributor had a temper tantrum when he found out he couldn't buy a new yacht 5' longer than the old one.


Yeah, I remember when PEXSupply used to ship up here and now they are called SupplyHouse and have stopped that practice.



Allthunbs said:


> It's called lazyness and lack of research. You go on a web site and you get a banal imitation of what I was producing under HTML 1.0 (actually it didn't exist but you get the idea) back in 1990, ...


I remember the days of Trumpet Winsock, dial-up, BBS, etc and it seems most Canadian vendors are still stuck in that era - not all - but most have shockingly poor websites. I dabble in website development and I think even I could do a better job on the front-end and certainly better on the back-office integration part (my area of expertise.)

I feel Canadian businesses that complain about people shopping south of the border don't realize that sometimes it's not just about the money...sometimes the customer doesn't even know it's available up here because the websites suck! :laughing:


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## Allthunbs (Apr 27, 2009)

Digitalfiend said:


> I was hoping that was the case. I've got a whole house filter to incorporate into the mix, so I think I'll tee off of the main line for the outside hoses (don't need to filter lawn water haha) and then into the filter, to the manifold, and to the tankless and back loop (keeping it as short as possible.)


Hi Digitalfiend: Ok, I don't know about whole house filters. In another house I used to have a complete water purification plant, injected chlorine, air, activated filers, holding tanks the whole bit. I had copper and I'll never do that again.

There are things that you must remember. Firstly, pex is polyethylene and minerals don't stick to it. Any minerals that remain in the water get passed through to the device at the end of the chain. Alternatively, your pipes won't corrode like copper. In this house I had 30 year old copper that sprung leaks daily. I must own part of the Sharkbite company, I bought so many of their quick fixes. Now, there is no degradation of my PEX at all. I have a slight slickness on the inside wall of the PEX from jellied water but other than that, nothing.



Digitalfiend said:


> Yeah, I remember when PEXSupply used to ship up here and now they are called SupplyHouse and have stopped that practice.


I still get adverts and 'help requests' from them and they're still using the PexSupply name on those.



Digitalfiend said:


> I remember the days of Trumpet Winsock, dial-up, BBS, etc and it seems most Canadian vendors are still stuck in that era - not all - but most have shockingly poor websites. I dabble in website development and I think even I could do a better job on the front-end and certainly better on the back-office integration part (my area of expertise.)


Good Lord. You're almost as old as me. I started my website in 1988 and made it available on Fidonet ;-) I run HTMLCompendium.org -- now a private site -- badly due for an update.



Digitalfiend said:


> I feel Canadian businesses that complain about people shopping south of the border don't realize that sometimes it's not just about the money...sometimes the customer doesn't even know it's available up here because the websites suck! :laughing:


I constantly tell local merchants that their competition isn't the guy next door, it is the guy in Tokyo. Even kids I tell that their competition for jobs isn't the kid in the next street but the kid in China. The young people listen but the adults can't be bothered.

I'm writing three books right now about growing up and what kids need to know to be adults. Lazy and selfish are the two killers. I could go on for hours but I'll quit while I'm ahead.

Allthumbs


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## Knucklez (Oct 21, 2007)

for recent readers of this thread.. trying to import PEX into canada is still a necessity because cbsupplies.ca is outrageous and all the distributors won't sell to the public. but now there are options... GOOD options.. SIMPLE options..

buy what you want here (or anywhere in the states, but this site had good value and free shipping)
http://www.blueridgecompany.com

and then ship to US postal address found here:
http://www.reship.com

and done.


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