# Flashing



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

NoExperience:

I couldn't receive your Personal Message cuz my browser has an automatic pop-up blocker that is also apparantly very effective at blocking Personal Messages.


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## NoExperience (Aug 8, 2008)

Nestor I PMed you to ask your opinion on how you would proceed from this point.
I bought another quart of primer that I had them tint so I wouldn't need as many finish coats but that won't help the flashing I don't think.

Should I try another brand of latex , should I change to interior paint, and if so should I remove the exterior paint.
The reason I ask about removing the exterior paint is that it is said that is exterior has a softer finish than interior.
They say not to put oil over latex for that reason, so does the same concept apply here ?

And another issue with this paint is that you can't spot paint.
I tried that just to see if I could hit the areas that had no sheen but I can see the perimeter of the region I spot paint.
So this stuff is going to be problematic.

I need a continuous application of the paint on the trim to even have a hope of a no flashing and the paint doesn't give me much working time.
There are areas that did turn out good but it's hit and miss it seems like I need a small working area and great care in the way I brush it on.

Maybe the interior paint would make enough difference where I would get lucky.
I don't know if the chemical propeties used by other brands could maybe help.

I also was aaking your feeling about oil in the PM although I think its too late for that barring lots of rework.
Most opinions here are that oil is a pain in the ass, but myself I like the hard finish of oil for trim opposed to the rubbery finish of latex.

It's frustrating I never heard of dark paints as being this big an issue.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2008)

What brand are you using? You may need to switch to a top quality paint if you want good results in the color and sheen of your choosing. P&L Accolade, SW Duration, or BM Aura should all be fine for no more than two coats for such a color. Make sure to give your first coat plenty of dry time, say 24 hours, before recoating. Dark colors like this have a lot of pigment and take longer to cure. Reapplying too soon with re-wet the pigments and degrade the hiding abilities of the paint.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2008)

I just skimmed your other post. Looks like you are using Behr. Toss it. Behr is total junk. I still recall seeing a show on HGTV where they were using a dark brown color on the walls and were proudly displaying the Behr can while painting. Nine coats of paint later the wall was still showing streaks and the paints can was turned around so you couldn't see the brand anymore. They ended up getting a different brand of paint and it covered in two coats.


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## NoExperience (Aug 8, 2008)

9 coats ?
I can believe it.

Some of it is due to the white primer but.....when you have a reddish surface where the brown is translucent then primer should not be an issue past that point, because you do have a thin layer of finish coat.
But that doesn't prove to be the case.

Your comment about waiting longer between coats is what behr told me.
They said wait 4 hrs.
24 hours could result in a very time consuming job.

The brush type seems to make a difference but I only tried 2 types I had on hand.
I really don't know what would be the very best type of brush.

My thinking with the white primer ...I had white one hand why tint it because I need to use it in other areas, so I will just put another coat or 2 of finish no big deal. But with this Behr it is a big deal because if you need to touch up the paint you will be doing it in multiple steps.
I hate work that isn't servicable.
When a job is done it should last long and/or be easy to maintain.


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## NoExperience (Aug 8, 2008)

poppameth said:


> I just skimmed your other post. Looks like you are using Behr. Toss it. Behr is total junk. I still recall seeing a show on HGTV where they were using a dark brown color on the walls and were proudly displaying the Behr can while painting. Nine coats of paint later the wall was still showing streaks and the paints can was turned around so you couldn't see the brand anymore. They ended up getting a different brand of paint and it covered in two coats.


The Behr inside the house isn't a problem in fact their eggsheel seems very good.
This is one of those decisons I'm kicking myself over.
Sometimes I don't listen to advice and end up regretting it, this time I took advice on semi gloss latex for trim and really wish I went with oil.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2008)

Even the best paints in these color can have issues if you don't allow more drying time between coats. 
As far as your trim there are good latex paints you can use and there are those that are good but dry so fast you see every brush mark. I find a shot of Flood Floetrol helps enormously with some of these fast drying paints. It gives the paint more time to level. As for brushes I'd recommend you go to a decent paint store an look for a brush from Wooster that has a purple nylon bristle. It'll have a red stripe on the label with a purple stripe under it that says Soft. These are some of the softest tipped brushes I've come across and they leave less brush marks than most.

Look on this page: http://woosterbrush.com/products.asp?id=174 for the Ultr/Pro Soft about halfway down the page.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

No Experience:

Here are my responses to your original PM and your post when I said I couldn't receive that PM:



> I went with the exterior paint thinking I was doing myself a favor gaurding against temperature fluxuation. There was a lot of paint peeping in the garage on the walls and ceiling.


It is not temperature variations that will cause paint to peel on wood. Wood swells and shrinks with changes in it's moisture content resulting from seasonal changes in humidity. Wood exchanges moisture with the air around it, and when the relative humidity of the air around it is high, wood will absorb moisture and swell up. When that relative humidity is low, wood will release moisture back into the air to remain in an equilibrium moisture content with the surrounding air. The result is that the dimensions of wood can change by a good few percent (expecially across the grain) due to those seasonal changes in humidity.

Both interior and exterior latex paints are relatively soft and are both way more than elastic enough to stretch and shrink with the wood as it changes dimensions. So, the primary difference between interior and exterior latex paints is the amount of UV blockers and biocides (fungicides, mildewcides) they have in them. Both interior and exterior latex paints have plenty enough elasticity to stretch and shrink with wood.

Oil based paints are a different matter. Interior oil based paints dry much harder than latex paints, and hand-in-hand with hardness comes rigidity. Interior oil based paints simply aren't elastic enough to stretch and shrink with wood outdoors. Exterior oil based paints are formulated so that they don't dry nearly as hard as interior oil based paints, and retain enough softness and elasticity to stretch and shrink with wood. So, even though exterior oil based paints also contain much more UV blockers and biocides, the primary difference between interior and exterior oil based paints is hardness; interior paints dry to a lot harder film than exterior paints. But, exterior oil based paints still dry much harder than interior latex paints.

So, you should check to see if the peeling paint on the inside of your garage is:

a) an oil based paint, and

b) applied over wood.

If it IS an oil based paint, and it was applied over wood, then that is the likely cause of the peeling. However, if the paint is peeling off a drywall ceiling, then it has to be a different reason because drywall doesn't swell and shrink with seasonal changes in humidity. You can check to see if a paint is a latex or an oil with nail polish remover, or by just bending a piece of peeling paint. Oil based paints will be much more brittle than latex paints, and will break much more easily when bent.

If the reason for the peeling is because an interior oil based paint was used on your garage's interior, then I'd stick with an exterior oil based paint. An exterior oil based paint will dry much harder than an exterior latex paint. (The only reason exterior latex paints will dry to a softer film is because normally, an exterior paint doesn't have to stand up to hard scrubbing to remove stubborn marks like interior latex paints have to. So, paint companies will use less expensive binders that dry to softer films in their exterior latex paints than their interior latex paints.)



> So the dilema is this ....if this Behr paint is not going to do the trick because of the flashing and I try a different brand should I switch to interior paint?


I would probably switch to an exterior (or perhaps interior) alkyd paint. It will dry to a harder film than an interior latex, and that seems to be what you're wanting. If the paint peeling going on in your garage proves to be an oil based paint applied over wood, then I'd play it safe and stick with exterior oil based paints on your trim.



> If I do switch should I remove the exterior paint?


I would only do that on WORKING SURFACES, such as window sills where you'll be putting things down. I'd remove the latex paint (and any latex primer) and prime with an exterior alkyd primer, then apply an exterior alkyd paint. On door frames or baseboards or any other wood trim that isn't a "working surface", I'd probably just paint over the latex. Maybe scratch at the latex with a sharp paint scraper to make sure that it's properly adhering first. If it scrapes off TOO easily, then it isn't even adhering well to the latex primer, in which case it wouldn't be a good idea to put anything over it. Depending on how well it is adhering, you could probably remove it with steel wool or a green 3M Scotchbrite pad.



> The reason I ask is that I am told not put oil over latex primer because the primer has a soft finish.


For walls and trim, you can put any kind of paint over any kind of primer. For working surfaces, such as shelves, window sills, table tops and floors, having a weak layer under a hard layer (like oil based paint over latex primer) tends to result in "chipping" of the hard layer because the underlying weak layer breaks more readily. On a door frame or baseboard, no one's going to dropping stuff onto it or really hitting it with anything, so I'd just paint over the latex with the oil based paint.

Since your latex paint is a semi-gloss, you really should roughen the surface of the semigloss latex before repainting. You can do this by washing it with an abrasive green 3M Scotchbrite pad, or just by sanding it down.



> So if outdoor latex has a softer finish then indoor latex will that be an issue for the same reason?


There isn't enough of a difference in strength and hardness between interior and exterior latex paints to cause "chipping problems". Both types of paints are relatively soft and weak. There's a significant difference in hardness between interior and exterior alkyd primers, so it's best to use an interior alkyd primer under an interior alkyd paint. (and an exterior alkyd primer under an exterior alkyd paint cuz if you're using an exterior alkyd paint cuz you're painting wood outdoors, then you need an exterior alkyd primer for that reason alone.)



> Also, would you have gone with oil based piant?
> That was my inclination but was persuaded not to by one of my brothers who said be wouldnt because it's a pain in the ass.
> But for me I was looking for a good result as the first consideration.


I am partial to oil based paints. They form harder and stronger films, they have MUCH simpler film formation mechanisms, and so they're not as much affected by temperature and humidity, and they can be tinted with more pigment to provide greater hide than latex paints can (cuz pigments have a tendancy to flocculate into "clumps" in latex paints, but they don't do that nearly as much in oil based paints.) If it wuz me, I probably woulda gone with an exterior alkyd primer and paint right from the start. Still, I have to agree with the advice you got; a latex paint was not a BAD choice here.



> Here is what I do not like about latex on trim.
> It is a softer finish and if it peels, you cannot sand it down as well as oil that has chipped or cracked.
> The latex has a tendancy to tear and keep peeling when you try to sand it smooth.
> Plus to me it's no good for widow sashes because it is soft.


That might be true, but if you buy one of those paint scrapers with the tungsten carbide blade (and have a new, sharp blade in it), that softer latex paint is much easier to scrape off of wood than an oil based paint. That's especially true if you use a heat gun to soften the paint still further while scraping.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

And here's my responses to the post in the forum saying what you said in your PM:

(This web site doesn't like posts longer than 10,000 characters.)




> Nestor I PMed you to ask your opinion on how you would proceed from this point. I bought another quart of primer that I had them tint so I wouldn't need as many finish coats but that won't help the flashing I don't think.


If it were me, I'd probably switch to an exterior alkyd paint and paint over what you've done if it's dry. Phone around to see if any paint companies in town have a PRE-TINTED brown exterior alkyd paint. Because of what I said about pigment flocculation, oil based paints can have more pigment in them than latex paints, and that results in better hide. And, if the pigment is added at the factory as it is in PRE_TINTED paints, then you don't have a lot of glycerine added in the paint tinting machine because you won't be tinting it (or not tinting it nearly as much, anyhow).

You CAN tint pretinted paints. You can tint a pretinted brown paint with Raw Umber or black to make a darker brown, or with brown oxide or white to make a lighter brown.



> Should I try another brand of latex , should I change to interior paint, and if so should I remove the exterior paint.


I'm not convinced that the problems you're having can be blamed exclusively on the name on the can. I'm more convinced that it's the relatively high gloss of your paint that's giving you poor hide, and the amount of glycerine that was needed to tint a clear tint base dark brown that is causing the problems. And, I can see exactly the same thing happening with another brand, even Benny Moore, Sherwin Williams or Mr. Lamber's paint.

At this point, if I wuz you, I'd probably see if I could get a pretinted brown exterior alkyd paint in a colour I could live with, and paint over what you have. I say that because it's really no extra work to paint with alkyd paint than latex paint, but it's just that you have to wash out your brushes in mineral spirits instead of water. (Chuck any roller sleeves you use, they're not worth washing out.)



> The reason I ask about removing the exterior paint is that it is said that is exterior has a softer finish than interior. They say not to put oil over latex for that reason, so does the same concept apply here ?


That rule applies to "Working surfaces" where you will have scraping and impacts on the working surface. No one is going to be pulling at the paint on your door frames or baseboards, so that rule really doesn't apply to ordinary wood trim.

Where that rule is most important, and where I learned it is when it comes to floor finishes. Most acrylic floor finishes are soft enough to be polished smooth with a relatively inexpensive "buffer". Some acrylic floor finishes are so hard that they require a "propane burnisher", which uses the heat of burning propane to soften the floor finish enough so that it can be polished smooth. In floor finishes, the Cardinal Rule is, never put a hard floor finish over a softer one. I've found that rule applies well to paints on working surfaces too.



> And another issue with this paint is that you can't spot paint.
> I tried that just to see if I could hit the areas that had no sheen but I can see the perimeter of the region I spot paint.
> So this stuff is going to be problematic.


The issue there might simply be hide. If your paint isn't hiding the substrate colour completely in one coat, then you will always see a difference between one coat and two. In fact, the way you tell if a paint is hiding completely in one coat is to paint the wall normally (using a brush to cut in and a roller to fill in) and seeing if you can see any "picture framing" effect of increased colour density around the perimeter of the wall where the brush and roller coats overlapped. If you do, then you're not getting complete hide in one coat. If you don't see any difference, then one coat is hiding the substrate completely so there is no difference in appearance between one coat and two.

Given that you're using a semi-gloss paint, it's unlikely that you're going to get complete hide in one coat regardless of who's paint you're using. Flatter paints hide better than glossier ones, and you've got a fairly glossy paint there.



> I need a continuous application of the paint on the trim to even have a hope of a no flashing and the paint doesn't give me much working time. There are areas that did turn out good but it's hit and miss it seems like I need a small working area and great care in the way I brush it on.


Alkyd paints are much less susceptible to weather conditions interfering in film formation. They have a much more robust mechanism for film formation. Basically, oxygen from the air crosslinks all the resins together. That's it. If you paint outdoors during a blizzard with an oil based paint, the paint will remain wet or tacky all winter, but come warmer weather, the paint will then begin to cure properly and will dry to a strong hard film just as though that winter hadn't happened. Also, alkyd paints will give you a longer working time. You can add a product called "Penetrol" to your alkyd paint to extend the working time even longer if you find it isn't long enough.

Also, since atmospheric humidity plays no role in the film formation process with alkyd paints, then you can paint on a rainy day and the paint will cure normally and be totally unaffected by the 100% humidity.

I believe that you may be thinking that products like KILZ Sealer and Zinsser's BIN Primer are typical of alkyd primers. These products dry very rapidly and aren't at all like normal alkyd primer and paints.



> Maybe the interior paint would make enough difference where I would get lucky. I don't know if the chemical propeties used by other brands could maybe help.


In my view, the name on the can makes the SMALLEST difference in paint performance. Generally, it's the chemistry of the paint (polyurethane, alkyd, 100% acrylic or vinyl acrylic) the colour (and therefore the kinds of pigments), the gloss level (and therefore the amount and kind of extender pigments) and the additives that determine paint performance and also determine when and where you're going to have problems with a paint. The name on the can means in my humble opinion, and I'd bet that you would have had the same problems you're having now regardless of whose semigloss dark brown exterior latex paint you were using.

I believe that the problems you're experiencing revolve around the use of a highly pigmented (and therefore full of glycerine) latex paint outdoors, where humidity and temperatures will affect film formation.



> I also was asking your feeling about oil in the PM although I think its too late for that barring lots of rework.
> Most opinions here are that oil is a pain in the ass, but myself I like the hard finish of oil for trim opposed to the rubbery finish of latex.


I prefer oil to latex paints. And, if I were you, I would try now to switch to a pretinted exterior alkyd paint in a brown colour. I don't see why painting that over what you have would be significantly more work than painting someone else's latex over what you have now. Also, oil based paints have a much more robust film formation mechanism, so they're simply less prone to the kinds of problems you're having than latex paints.

Even tinting an alkyd paint with the same amount of colourant wouldn't result in a problem. The glycerine added when tinting might take a long time to evaporate, but once it did, the alkyd paint would cure normally. Excessive tinting can only ruin a latex paint, not an oil based paint.




> It's frustrating I never heard of dark paints as being this big an issue.


It's not the fact that the paint is dark. I believe it's the fact that they had to add lots and lots and lots..... and lots of colourant to a clear tint base to make it dark, and the colourant they added was pigment suspended in glycerine, and it's the amount of that slow drying glycerine that's largely responsible for the problems you're having. If you had gotten a dark brown exterior alkyd paint from the start, I believe you'd have avoided all the problems you're dealing with now.

PS: You shouldn't have much problem finding a pretinted exterior alkyd paint in brown. Brown is commonly used to paint the outsides of window frames and so lots of paint companies offer a pretinted exterior alkyd in brown. I know Benjamin Moore has a pretinted exterior alkyd in two different colours of brown, but I think they're both flat. Personally, I prefer alkyd paint in flat because when it comes time to repaint, you don't have to sand the old paint down. Being flat, it's already rough enough to accept any other paint on top of it, including another flat alkyd. When I painted my electrified parking fence, I painted it with a pretinted flat alkyd brown. Breton Brown from Benjamin Moore.


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## NoExperience (Aug 8, 2008)

Nestor before reading this most recent post I laid down a coat of zinsser 123 water based primer tinter a coffee color, it cover well.

The tinted primer went down without effort which is what I expected in the finish coat.
It took me no time at all to cover the white primer.
The flat look of the primer has a clean appearance.
So I wouldn't be unhappy with a flat finish coat.

But if I'm switching over to alkyd, I dont see that being any good to me now.
So that might be another waste of time and money.

Can you clear up my confusion on the difference between alkyd and oil, or is there one.
You said the alkyd primers weren't the same as zinsser oil primer and working time wasn't similar.

You said that the advice I got on using semi gloss latex wasn't bad advice yet also said that going with a color like this using a latex is where my trouble is.


On the peeling ...most of my peeling was from the wall and ceiling.
Some trim had chips coming off other trim had not at all.
The walls and ceiling had severe issues but wood surfaces seemed like what you would typically see in something that old.


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## NoExperience (Aug 8, 2008)

poppameth said:


> Even the best paints in these color can have issues if you don't allow more drying time between coats.
> As far as your trim there are good latex paints you can use and there are those that are good but dry so fast you see every brush mark. I find a shot of Flood Floetrol helps enormously with some of these fast drying paints. It gives the paint more time to level. As for brushes I'd recommend you go to a decent paint store an look for a brush from Wooster that has a purple nylon bristle. It'll have a red stripe on the label with a purple stripe under it that says Soft. These are some of the softest tipped brushes I've come across and they leave less brush marks than most.
> 
> Look on this page: http://woosterbrush.com/products.asp?id=174 for the Ultr/Pro Soft about halfway down the page.


That might be some advice with the Floetrol.
I don't know where I'd get that locally.
Does it effect the coverage, wiil I be looking at painting more coats?

I'll definitely keep an eye out for those brushes.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

> The tinted primer went down without effort which is what I expected in the finish coat. It took me no time at all to cover the white primer.


So far so good.



> The flat look of the primer has a clean appearance. So I wouldn't be unhappy with a flat finish coat.
> 
> But if I'm switching over to alkyd, I dont see that being any good to me now. So that might be another waste of time and money.


Well, you can put EITHER another latex or an alkyd primer over that latex primer. I don't want to PUSH you into using an oil based paint. I just feel that opting for an oil base paint would avoid the possibility of having the same problem with someone else's latex paint. If I were in your shoes, I'd be equally concerned about that. If you buy someone else's latex paint, I'd buy a quart instead of a gallon just in case you end up with the same problems.



> Can you clear up my confusion on the difference between alkyd and oil, or is there one.


True "oil based" paints used drying oils, like boiled linseed oil as the binder, or film former. These paints were the "oil based" paints that were available up to the mid-1980's that literally took 2 or 3 days to dry. True oil based paints have been used since the early middle ages (or about 1200 AD, and they are believed to be one of the new technologies the Christians acquired from the Muslims after the fall of Toledo in Spain and the capture of the Great Library there. Drying oil paints (including walnut oil and poppyseed oil) were used throughout Europe by artists like Leonardo and Michaelangelo. House paints in North America have always been based on boiled linseed oil as the binder. The "working time" of such paints is very long. They are still wet to the touch hours after being applied.

Linseed oil transforms into a solid by reacting with oxygen in the air. Until linseed oil is exposed to the air, it remains a liquid. Linseed oil has something called "unsaturated sites" in it. Where ever two unsaturated sites are in close proximity, an O2 molecule will react at both unsaturated sites simultaneously forming a PAIR of C-O-C crosslinks between those two sites. As those crosslinks form, the connect the parts of one linseed oil molecules with those around it so that no one molecule can move without all the others moving too. The result is that the linseed oil becomes progressively more viscous until it solidifies.

Alkyd paints are the evolution of oil based paints. What they do is take a cheap abundant oil, like soy bean oil, and chemically create lots of those unsaturated sites in it. Then they mix those modified soy bean oil molecules (or parts of them called "fatty acids" or "lipids") with two other chemicals (called "phthalic anhydride and glycerine) and everything reacts with everything else to form "clumps" of those souped up soy bean molecules. Those clumps are then dissolved in mineral spirits, and that is the basis of an "alkyd paint". When you spread that on the wall, then as soon as the mineral spirits evaporates, then those souped up soy bean oil molecules (or parts thereof) are exposed to O2 in the air, and the high concentration of unsaturated sites results in pairs of C-O-C crosslinks forming like crazy both within the alkyd resins and between alkyd resins. This is why an alkyd paint will dry to a harder film in 3 hours than a boiled linseed oil based paint will in 3 days. Not only does the high concentration of crosslinking result in faster drying of alkyd paints, it results in alkyd paints ultimately drying to a much harder film than linseed oil based paints.



> You said the alkyd primers weren't the same as zinsser oil primer and working time wasn't similar.


KILZ primer (made by Master Chem) is an alkyd primer that uses a mixture of 60 percent naptha and 40 percent mineral spirits as the thinner instead of 100 percent mineral spirits like a normal alkyd primer. Naptha is camping fuel, and it evaporates about 5 times as fast as mineral spirits. As a result, KILZ primer only has about 1/5 the working time of an ordinary alkyd primer.

Zinnser's "BIN" primer is similar. Instead of using a lot of naptha as it's thinner, BIN primer uses alcohol, which also evaporates much faster than mineral spirits, and that also results in a short working time.

If you've been using either KILZ sealer or BIN primer and have found that they had short working times compared to latex paint, the reason is because they have very fast evaporating thinners. Regular alkyd primers and paints have much slower evaporating thinners and have a working time longer than latex paints.



> You said that the advice I got on using semi gloss latex wasn't bad advice yet also said that going with a color like this using a latex is where my trouble is.


That's because in order to make a dark brown paint, the guy at HD had to take a can of latex paint that would otherwise dry clear, and add lots and lots.... and lots of brown colourant to it in the paint tinting machine. That colourant consists of brown pigments suspended in glycerine. And, having too much glycerine in a latex paint will interferes with the film formation process, which is what I believe is partially responsible for the flashing you're getting.

If you tint an alkyd paint the same amount, it won't interfere with the film formation process. The glycerine will take the same amount of time to evaporate from the alkyd paint as it does from the latex paint, but once it does, the alkyd resins will be exposed to air, and the paint will then form a film normally, just as hard and strong as it would have without as much tinting.



> On the peeling ...most of my peeling was from the wall and ceiling.
> Some trim had chips coming off other trim had not at all.
> The walls and ceiling had severe issues but wood surfaces seemed like what you would typically see in something that old.


OK, the important question is in regard to the peeling on the wall and ceiling. Was that a drywall or plaster wall or ceiling the paint was peeling off of, or was the surface the paint was peeling off of made of wood?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2008)

Floetrol should be available at most paints stores or a product like it. Ask for a latex paint extender. You don't put enough of it in the paint to really effect coverage.


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