# What do you think of this drywall job?



## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

I would definitely classify that as a poor hanging job. From the looks of the tape coat, the finishing will also end up poor. What made you choose this installer? Did you not see any of his previous work?


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

sixeightten said:


> I would definitely classify that as a poor hanging job. From the looks of the tape coat, the finishing will also end up poor. What made you choose this installer? Did you not see any of his previous work?


Thanks for the comments -

The installer works for a large GC firm that has proven to be good in some areas and less so in others. It was a large and complex project (ok by my humble standards), which involved jacking up the house to build a new foundation under an old addition that had been on concrete pillars over a crawlspace. The GC we chose was the only firm that really seemed confident in their ability to manage the entire project, but I have to say I did not see previous drywall work by their group (and if I did it probably would have been by a different guy).

The same installer has done some other framing work in this job that I'm very happy with, but they put on a mad rush before Christmas and I think they called in some really junior help to achieve as much as possible and this is the result.

This is my third large-ish home renovation project and I still find I have a lot to learn...

This kind of feedback really helps me, as I usually just see the finished product and don't really have the experience to say with authority that this is a sloppy job (even though it certainly looks to be). Shoddy work here will, in addition to looking bad, undermine the soundproofing for which I'm paying a fair amount - not good!

I looked at the manufacturer's recommendation for the product used (SHEETROCK Firecode X) and they call for gaps no larger than 1/8"

P


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

You would be amazed at what a good drywall finisher can do with a sub par job. You will need to find someone who is very good at finishing to end up with a satisfactory project. Some of the hanging may need to be redone. Whoever started the taping there is not the guy you want doing the rest of the finishing.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

Thanks six,

I've contacted the GC with my concerns, and am hoping they will take them seriously. My uneducated feeling has also been that some of the drywall should just be re-done.

Kind regards,

P


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not seeing a single thing that was done right.
For sure that's not going to be sound proof done like that.
Since you built up the floor I would have added blocking between the studs to have something to attach the rock to.
Looks like he has one area tight to the floor and the other wall up an inch.
Must have been the first time he's ever used a Roto ZIP.
Seams are not wide enough.
I would not even pay for a job done that bad.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

The taper will backcharge someone- hope it's not you


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> I'm not seeing a single thing that was done right.
> For sure that's not going to be sound proof done like that.
> Since you built up the floor I would have added blocking between the studs to have something to attach the rock to.
> Looks like he has one area tight to the floor and the other wall up an inch.
> ...


Yikes! That's what I was afraid of...

The framing around the floor looks like this:


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

I am no electrician, but shouldn't there be some staples holding the wires near the boxes?


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

TheEplumber said:


> The taper will backcharge someone - hope it's not you


Both the taper and drywall hanger are employees of the GC firm. The room was done the day before Christmas break and it was clear they were really rushing.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Guess there electrical inspections going on there.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

They even used the wrong style boxes. There's no way to slide the sheetrock over boxes like the one he used.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Steel-City-1-Gang-Handy-Box-Silver-5836112-30R/202601209#


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> Guess there electrical inspections going on there.


I'm in Montreal, Canada ...

For some reason, the municipality does not generally do electrical (or other) inspections in these residential jobs. We are doing this totally legit, with a city permit and all licensed trades. When I lived in the US, you had to have an inspector check the wiring before closing up the walls. Maybe they don't do inspections because the work is being done by a licensed electrician?

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*Thanks for replies*

Hi and thanks again for the replies.

So far, I'm not hearing anyone chime in to say 

"no, no, it's not that bad - this is normal, and although it looks rough a good drywall finisher will fix that so it looks perfect... all those cracks will be covered with baseboard/moulding"...

I've contacted my GC about it, and I suppose he could invoke the above arguments.

P


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Sorry but this is bad and going to be hard to fix. This is not just bad soundproofing, this is bad drywall. As Joe said I really don't see anything right.
If it was me since they didn't use the right boxes, didn't know enough to staple the wire at the box, their entire wiring job would be suspicious to me.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If it had of been done right in the first place there would not have to be a plan B.
Hope you have better luck then I would finding a finisher that will even work on this job.
There going to loose about a 1/2 day just filling and patching. And time is money.
If this job was run through a real licensed GC with a lick of since and pride in his work around here and he walked in and saw this that would be that hangers last job, and would be done over at his expense.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
There should be no reason for him to make like a dog and try and cover up his poop. 
Anyone that's been in the business a while has had to go through this before.
I used to sit down at night and write written instructions for each employee on what I expected to get done that day on bigger jobs. All they had to do was do was what was on the list and check off what got done.
I'd show up and they had lost there list and decided to just do whatever they happen to feel like doing. 
We would be in the middle of a big deck job and as soon as it was done they where going to a home to replace all the windows. I had given the lead man written instructions. 
I went on a cruse out of the country and I'm getting text's from the deck customer asking why we where not there to finish, and another one saying I love my new windows.
What would make them think it was a good idea to spend all the time to pack up and move to a different job?


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> If it had of been done right in the first place there would not have to be a plan B.
> Hope you have better luck then I would finding a finisher that will even work on this job.


I'm going through a big GC firm and in theory that's their concern as the contract covers all drywall and finishing. My problem is more that I'm paying extra for soundproofing, but the shoddy joints will render that a waste of money.

I can't believe the disconnect between the standards of the contractor and the responses I'm getting here! My guy really, honestly, seems to think that his job is fine.

P


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## northernlite (Oct 12, 2009)

For soundproofing against bass guitar noise transmission, you may also regret not having resilient channel and RC clips.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

northernlite said:


> For soundproofing against bass guitar noise transmission, you may also regret not having resilient channel and RC clips.


Thanks -

Right now, my instinct is to tell the GC to get their sheetrock off my wall and do the job myself with RC and green glue (which is what I wanted to begin with, but they forgot).

My understanding is that RC itself does not require special clips. There is a local vendor who stocks GenieClips, but they add a significant depth (around 1.5") to the wall and I think it might lower the 7'6" ceiling too much. Using RC along (adding 1/2") would probably be a reasonable compromise.

P


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

ouch, I self taught myself drywalling in my own basement and my jobs look better than that, doesn't look like they used enough green glue. Did they use any? how many tubes per sheet?

not using resilient channel will make a big difference.

acoustical sealant needs to go in all exposed drywall gaps. I suspect the pics of the ones you provided are too big for the most part. can you even get caulk saver foam that big?

go to the web sites for green glue and resilient channel, they have specs as to the standards for installing.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

bbo said:


> ouch, I self taught myself drywalling in my own basement and my jobs look better than that, doesn't look like they used enough green glue. Did they use any? how many tubes per sheet?
> 
> not using resilient channel will make a big difference.
> 
> ...


Thanks bbo - in the end they did not use Green Glue. The didn't know what Green Glue is until I explained it to them yesterday. They just don't seem to get it that this is a sloppy job. It's possible that their way of doing drywall is cost-effective for the GC, because normally all those gaps are covered with baseboard or other finishing materials, and maybe they have a really skilled drywall finisher who can work miracles on whatever is put up? I don't believe this will work for soundproofing though.

I've been reading Rod Gervais' book, and the Green Glue web site is indeed very good. I think I now know more about soundproofing than the GC, and if I can take the time to do the drywall well then I can probably do a better job myself.

P


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

Proton said:


> Thanks -
> 
> Right now, my instinct is to tell the GC to get their sheetrock off my wall and do the job myself with RC and green glue (which is what I wanted to begin with, but they forgot).
> 
> ...


 I don't think they forgot. they remembered how much $$$ it cost. I think the green glue here was 2x the price of the 5/8 drywall is I remember right and that's just 1 tube per sheet. not to mention the added cost of the channel and sealant.


I also opted out of the clips ( still used the channel ) but used the channel ( double leg on ceiling affixed every other joist ) 

I felt mine was a reasonable compromise. my office down here I hear only when the kids are running or pounding on the floor upstairs right above me.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

bbo said:


> I don't think they forgot. they remembered how much $$$ it cost. I think the green glue here was 2x the price of the 5/8 drywall is I remember right and that's just 1 tube per sheet. not to mention the added cost of the channel and sealant.
> 
> 
> I also opted out of the clips ( still used the channel ) but used the channel ( double leg on ceiling affixed every other joist )
> ...


From the data I can find, and subjective reviews, it seems like the Green Glue is expensive but worth it (more so than special acoustic drywall, for example). It seems like the most cost effective approach is:

- properly installed resilient channel
- two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in between
- drywall cleanly cut, with 1/8" gaps around boxes and edges filled with acoustic caulking

P


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

> I can't believe the disconnect between the standards of the contractor and the responses I'm getting here! My guy really, honestly, seems to think that his job is fine.


Because if he thinks anything else, or at least admits to thinking it, it will cost him money. He's in the business of making money, not doing things correctly. Sorry you're getting screwed by them. You can always threaten to leave bad reviews or take him to court. Some people would care, some won't.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

mikegp said:


> Because if h the thinks anything else, or at least admits to thinking it, it will cost him money. He's in the business of making money, not doing things correctly. Sorry you're getting screwed by them. You can always threaten to le the bad reviews or take him to court. Some people would care, some won't.


Sadly I think you are right. This guy is going to protect his business interests. I will be very lucky to even get a refund for the drywall work they did, when I redo the work myself.

P


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Here's some examples of how it should have been done.
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-solutions/soundproofing-walls/


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*So now...*



mikegp said:


> Because if he thinks anything else, or at least admits to thinking it, it will cost him money. He's in the business of making money, not doing things correctly. Sorry you're getting screwed by them. You can always threaten to leave bad reviews or take him to court. Some people would care, some won't.


So what do I do? We've been working on this project since October, and it's kind of a once-in-a-lifetime financial (and time) plunge for me and my family. I think that GC's with this mentality have a very keen sense of the fact that someone like me is really at their mercy. It's great to talk about kicking him off the site, but I simply don't have the budget, time, or emotional energy to re-start from zero with another contractor.

My gut feeling is that the best way to cover my losses is to tell the GC to leave the music room alone, finish everything else, and get out (I'd do the soundproofing myself). The premium I was quoted, to have the soundproofing treatment over standard drywall, was $1,400. I am very sure that, in the GC's mind, he has done that and there is no way he's going to give any kind of credit if I deem the work unacceptable. 

Another frustrating thing is that the $1,400 quote was given verbally at the end of a phone conversation. The conversation took place in French, which is not my first language, so I said I approved "in principle" but asked the GC to send me a written summary of the work to be performed for my review and final approval (to avoid any misunderstandings - I speak French ok but don't know all the technical or building terms). He never sent the written quote and work description, and they rushed to do the work before Christmas, so there is nothing on paper (the rush was pointless, as the basement is still nowhere near finished). This could be viewed in two ways: one way is that I am screwed, since I don't have any written spec for the work so can't really complain; the other puts the contractor in a weak position, since I can argue that I never got the information I needed to give final approval for the work and could just refuse to pay. I would like to solve this amicably if possible - advice on my realistic options would be appreciated. I don't want to end up with a lien on my house...

P


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## northernlite (Oct 12, 2009)

Proton said:


> Thanks -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sound control is all about those compromises, and eliminating the clips is one that's common. Measurements indicate using RC or hat channel alone does help, but with clips it accomplishes a lot more. 
http://soundproofing.org/infopages/channel.htm#.UswepfRDt8E and http://soundproofing.org/infopages/soundwalls.htm#.UswpPfRDt8E

Ted White has posted a lot about this in the AVS forum. He also recommends hat channel rather than resilient channel. This saves space too. 
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/furring-channel-with-resilient-sound-clips/ 

The big STC gain will come from the mass, the twin layers of drywall with a dampening glue between. Properly installed. After that, it comes down to how much you want to decouple that vibrating mass from the transmission routes that resonate the LF to the annoyance of your wife.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I could see where you have no recourse because of a verbal contract about all the extra work to do the sound proofing, but the total lack of workman ship shown should be a totally different issue.


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## CarpenterSFO (Feb 9, 2013)

That's junky sheetrock work and electrical. My guess is that the contractor doesn't have a clue about the acoustic questions, and just figured that a good finisher should be able to deal with the cosmetic issues. The contractor should fill all the gaps, large or small, with acoustic caulk. The loose electrical loops should be dealt with - that's just hackery.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Just out of curiosity why has nobody mentioned quiet rock? It seems this might be a good place for it.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> I could see where you have no recourse because of a verbal contract about all the extra work to do the sound proofing, but the total lack of workman ship shown should be a totally different issue.


I think you're probably right - the work is not completely finished (some wall sections are still single layer), so I can hopefully negotiate to not pay all of the total fee quoted for the double drywall. I'm already pretty sure that he's going to deny that there's any issue with the workmanship, so not sure how much I'll get off there.

I sent the photos posted in this thread to USG's technical support (this is the company who makes SHEETROCK) asking if the install appears to meet their installation guidelines for soundproofing applications. Will see what they say, if anything.

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

ToolSeeker said:


> Just out of curiosity why has nobody mentioned quiet rock? It seems this might be a good place for it.


The literature I could find suggests that QuietRock or similar products are not that cost-effective (it costs a lot, and the improvements in attenuation are modest). Green Glue appears to be a better option - if you look at option 2 on this page, the improvement from special drywall (option 2) is pretty small.

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

A couple more standout photos from the butchery...


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Wow, I'm a painter who occasionally hangs drywall. I don't consider myself proficient at it, but, man, that's a butcher job even in my book! With proper measuring you can cut out for the electrical boxes with a drywall saw……..you don't even need a rotozip if you have some tape measure skills. That is awful work, but, it can be fixed by a QUALITY finisher.


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

Gymschu said:


> Wow, I'm a painter who occasionally hangs drywall. I don't consider myself proficient at it, but, man, that's a butcher job even in my book! With proper measuring you can cut out for the electrical boxes with a drywall saw……..you don't even need a rotozip if you have some tape measure skills. That is awful work, but, it can be fixed by a QUALITY finisher.


 you don't even need measuring skills. a tube of lipstick can work wonders.

and if you cant line up where to screw, just mark the center of the studs and snap a chalk line.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

How drunk was this guy? Seriously, this is so bad that it almost seems like a joke.


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## northernlite (Oct 12, 2009)

I can understand some inexperienced guy doing this work, all rushed and giving no f's on christmas eve. But I cannot understand a GC continuing to stand behind this work or refusing to make it right. 
In the article I linked, it mentions 2-3% of failure in correct wall installation = 50% reduction in potential sound control. I think you got that....


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

bbo said:


> you don't even need measuring skills. a tube of lipstick can work wonders.
> 
> and if you cant line up where to screw, just mark the center of the studs and snap a chalk line.


 
hope your putting that on the BACK side:laughing:


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*Can I tackle this myself?*

It's become clear that my GC lacks both the competence and motivation to do a proper sound insulation setup. There's no way I have the budget to have an acoustic specialist do the work so, like many before me, I think the only way will be for me to do the drywall work myself exactly like I want it.

One big concern is whether I can "de-couple" the soundproofing from the rest of the project, so that we can get the family areas done. The practice room in question is part of a much larger basement renovation project that includes a bathroom, family room, and guest bedroom. What I would like to do is tell the GC to forget about finishing the music room, and just do finish everything else. My wife is already pretty annoyed with me that I'm causing problems when both she and the GC want this whole thing to be over.

The GC is contracted to lay down hardwood floor, which was slated to be put in *after* all of the drywall and finishing work. Would there be any big disadvantages if I do the drywall *after* they put down the hardwood floor in this room?

My plan would be to re-do the drywall entirely using two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in between, hung on GenieClips/furring channel. If the room were a perfect square, I'm pretty sure I could do it no problem. The tricky part is that the room has a bit of complexity in the form of a ceiling bulkhead for a duct, plus a small alcove for the door. The main service panel for the entire house also had to go in the corner of this room, and the electrician hung it out a bit (enough for a couple of layers of drywall) but nowhere near enough for 2x5/8" plus GenieClips (which total about 3").

I now wonder if it's realistic to do GenieClips over the bulkhead, which has a complex shape with some fairly small surfaces. I'm attaching some wide-angle shots of the room's drywall surfaces - would be grateful for any comments on how realistic this would all be.

View of room with doorway and ceiling bulkhead and electrical panel:










Other wall with two windows:










Wall with the electric panel:










Probably the easiest wall:










The ceiling has three penetrations: a light fixture plus two vent holes










Here's an ironic quote from my GC when we were about to sign the contract:



> If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you hire an amateur


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

northernlite said:


> For soundproofing against bass guitar noise transmission, you may also regret not having resilient channel and RC clips.


I already replied to this post, but I will say again that you are quite right.

It's worth mentioning that the room was left in its current state over the holidays. I had the time to set up my bass equipment in the room, and play some passages at moderate "bedroom" levels into a looping pedal. This allowed me to then go upstairs, while the bass kept playing, and assess the sound levels. I can tell you that the effect of just putting two layers of 5/8" drywall, plus Roxul in the ceiling and walls, is pretty minimal. There was a *lot* of sound getting up there.

This reinforces the conventional wisdom that some kind of resilient mounting, Green Glue, and very careful attention to gap sealing are really important if you want significant attenuation. I don't realistically expect zero transmission, but the current setup (for which I was quoted $1,400) does almost nothing.

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

I got a followup quote from the GC - confirmed cost of the present work would be $1400, which might be ok if the drywall work was done well. To add RC and Green Glue would bring the total up to around $4,500 which is probably a reasonable price. I just don't have confidence they'd do the work carefully, and it's also so much money that it would be worth it to do the job myself with the help of a small contractor I know who does careful work (by my calculations I could do this for less than half that amount).

I told him to leave the office unfinished and I will do it. Not sure how much he's going to demand for the partial crappy job. I told him it was not done to adequate standards for sound proofing, and that I would have to re-do it properly. Any advice on how to approach negotiations here would be appreciated.

P


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## handyman_20772 (Jun 28, 2006)

If you want it done correctly....DIY.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Well I am not one to hire a lawyer, But in this case I would be talking Your fired! second I would be reporting him to what ever agency has jurisdiction over him. and yes law suit does come to my mind. even small claims court. I would not even pay him a dime and if his tools are still there on site I would be locking them up and holding them till he pays to have this done 100% right.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Can not, or should I say should not lock up his tools.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
He can charge you with position of stolen property.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

handyman_20772 said:


> If you want it done correctly....DIY.


Never was this more truly shown than in this present fiasco...

Lessons learned:

- big GC firms make money by ramming through lots of jobs done as cheaply as possible
- if you want things done a certain way, it's a big annoyance for them
- they will never, ever admit that they don't actually know how to do something, or that they screwed up

I think the experience gained on my part sort of offsets some of the financial losses and aggravation.

Cheers,

P


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

Love the healthy positive attitude.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

Nailbags said:


> Well I am not one to hire a lawyer, But in this case I would be talking Your fired! second I would be reporting him to what ever agency has jurisdiction over him. and yes law suit does come to my mind. even small claims court. I would not even pay him a dime and if his tools are still there on site I would be locking them up and holding them till he pays to have this done 100% right.


While I certainly feel this way, I decided the right solution for me and my family was to fire him from the office/studio finishing, and have him finish everything else on schedule. I told him there is no way I would pay him a premium for soundproofing, and will demand a credit off the original contract for not finishing that room. As others have mentioned, it's probably not really worth the hassle (and not legally defensible) to lock up their tools. Best to cut losses and move on... life is to short to start a war with these bozos.

There are some silver linings in this that I'll post later...

Thanks to all who've replied,

P


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

There are 2 aspects to this - drywalling, and soundproofing specifically.

Obvioustly, this is a sloppy drywall job so far. In fact it's somewhat of a hack job. The thing about contractors is they usually stick some other laborer in there, and this can change weekly, so you never know who you'll get. But as mentioned, good taping and mudding can help compensate.

As for the soundproofing, it's definitely going to be better than plain 1/2" drywall. Your strategy is fine, and I understand your point about a drywaller not being a sound expert. However anyone should be able to follow directions. The basic ideas you put in place are not exactly rocket science. He easily should have been able to follow the basic idea, which includes not leaving gaps in the drywall - obviously. If he can't get the basic idea that leaving holes between the walls negates the purpose of using 2 sheets of drywall in the first place, then he should be canned. The simple but specific directions should have been put in a contract in this particular case, since normal industry standards don't apply.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Proton said:


> This could be viewed in two ways: one way is that I am screwed, since I don't have any written spec for the work so can't really complain; the other puts the contractor in a weak position, since I can argue that I never got the information I needed to give final approval for the work and could just refuse to pay.


I don't know Canadian law, but basically the guy without the money is always screwed. He can't put a lien on your house without going through the legal system, which is where you can fight back.


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## hboogz (Mar 21, 2012)

joecaption said:


> They even used the wrong style boxes. There's no way to slide the sheetrock over boxes like the one he used.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Steel-City-1-Gang-Handy-Box-Silver-5836112-30R/202601209#


Not trying to throw this thread off on a tangent, but Joe, or the collective, could you link to the correct boxes ? And further, why wouldn't someone be able to slide rock over those boxes? My untrained eye obviously can't pick up on the problem. Thanks, Harry.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your post - you break it down pretty nicely, and these discussions are really helping me to maintain perspective in a situation where it would be easy to get worked up and possibly do something dumb.



jeffnc said:


> There are 2 aspects to this - drywalling, and soundproofing specifically.
> 
> Obvioustly, this is a sloppy drywall job so far. In fact it's somewhat of a hack job. The thing about contractors is they usually stick some other laborer in there, and this can change weekly, so you never know who you'll get. But as mentioned, good taping and mudding can help compensate.


You're absolutely right - while the drywalling hanging is very sloppy, to be fair it is sort of the GC's prerogative as to whether he'd prefer to spend money on hanging or patching, as long as the final result is cosmetically and structurally sound. The mudders have been down there this week, and by and large they *are* able to fill the holes. I asked them if the slipshod drywall hanging made their job harder, and they shrugged and said (in French) "nah, we just patch all the holes and it's gonna look fine - this is how we always do it". I don't really have a case to withhold any money on the grounds that the drywall was poorly hung, as there's little doubt he can finish it to an acceptable cosmetic level.



> As for the soundproofing, it's definitely going to be better than plain 1/2" drywall. Your strategy is fine, and I understand your point about a drywaller not being a sound expert. However anyone should be able to follow directions. The basic ideas you put in place are not exactly rocket science. He easily should have been able to follow the basic idea, which includes not leaving gaps in the drywall - obviously. If he can't get the basic idea that leaving holes between the walls negates the purpose of using 2 sheets of drywall in the first place, then he should be canned. The simple but specific directions should have been put in a contract in this particular case, since normal industry standards don't apply.


I think this is where I have an argument about the not paying the full $1,400 premium. It's a lot of money, and the extent of the "contract" was a rushed conversation a few days before the Christmas holiday shutdown. This conversation was 1) over a bad cell phone connection; 2) in French, which is not my first language; 3) done while I was literally running between meetings at my my job. The call was the result of my trying to track the GC down for days, after the materials on site and prep work made it clear they were ignoring my repeated requests that we discuss soundproofing for the room. The gist of the cell phone call that I got was that "to do soundproofing, you need special clips and a sandwich construction". By this time I'd done enough research to know that the most common soundproofing strategy, which seems tried and true for home theatre buffs, is double 5/8" drywall on resilient clips with Green Glue between the drywall.

What he said (or at least what I understood) sounded close to this "standard" so I said I agreed in principle to an adjustment of $1,400 but made it very clear that I wanted a *written* list of soundproofing measures to be emailed to me before final approval. He never sent that, and I never had an opportunity to review and carefully consider whether that would be enough. There were understandable time pressures, and the very next morning the guys showed up and slapped up the drywall in a mad rush. They did put acoustic sealant between the drywall seams, but whenever I asked the workers for details on how they'd handle penetrations for the receptacle boxes etc. they seemed pretty clueless. I really felt like they were just going to make a token effort at soundproofing, for the sake of extracting this big premium.

After I complained about the poor level of drywall work, and the marginal nature of the soundproofing measures, he eventually got back to me. He never acknowledged or addressed any comments about the drywall quality, but gave much higher quote for redoing the work with resilient clips and Green Glue. Neither the owner nor the foreman had ever heard of Green Glue or any other "viscous layer damping" product, which have become standards in residential home theatre. At this point I realized that any expertise in soundproofing beyond the most basic residential considerations was pretty much being made up as they went along, and that I'd be better off just managing that part myself.

I told the GC to remove all soundproofing adjustments from the contract, and that I'd manage that part myself. He never really responded to this, but he seems to be a pretty "busy" guy. I hooked up with a smaller contractor I know well from previous work (we went with the bigger firm because the overall basement project is pretty huge). This guy does careful work, and I've always had a great rapport with him - he'll just do it like I ask and bill at reasonable rates for his time. I also hooked up with an acoustic consultant who is a very active participant on gearslutz who is coming up with a rational and detailed spec at a very reasonable fee. I'm way more comfortable with this arrangement, as I'll retain much better control over costs and quality.

Will keep posted on how it goes with the GC.

P


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Proton said:


> I also hooked up with an acoustic consultant who is a very active participant on gearslutz who is coming up with a rational and detailed spec at a very reasonable fee. I'm way more comfortable with this arrangement, as I'll retain much better control over costs and quality.


I have a home theater (which is not soundproofed), but being the audio snob I am, I'm familiar with all the acoustic techniques. I have some Roxul myself to make wall absorption panels:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...p/78716-building-absorption-panels-ideas.html

I'm sure you're much better off with your current approach. In my experience, if a contractor doesn't "get it", then you're just not going to get a satisfying result even if you did have it in writing.


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## homerenovator (Aug 2, 2012)

sixeightten said:


> I am no electrician, but shouldn't there be some staples holding the wires near the boxes?


should be a staple within 8" of box. that's not even close to code... I would be scared at what the final product turns out to be... I suggest firing this guy RIGHT now.


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## homerenovator (Aug 2, 2012)

Proton said:


> A couple more standout photos from the butchery...


im sorry, but a few night ago I took a tour through a local high school shop class, and they had just finished their dry walling course. While there were some pretty butchered projects, almost none of them looked this bad.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

diyer111 said:


> should be a staple within 8" of box. that's not even close to code... I would be scared at what the final product turns out to be... I suggest firing this guy RIGHT now.


He might have put a staple after - I'm taking that drywall back off this weekend, and will check. Also, note the black/red/white wiring used in the boxes. The electrician proposed "isolated ground" because of the audio equipment going in the room. Isn't the ground wire supposed to be green? I think he's using three conductor cable intended for 240V applications - it drives me nuts that my city does not do inspections...

Aside from the (possibly) non-compliant wire colour, I'm pretty sure that the "isolated ground" wiring he's done offers no real advantage over normal grounding. The unsheathed conductor is wired to the box, with a separate sheathed conductor for the third prong of the receptacle. The receptacles are daisy chained in parallel. 

I asked the electrician a few questions about isolated grounding, and his replies did not inspire confidence... that's maybe a question for another thread. Most of the reading I've done since suggests there's not much advantage (the idea is to avoid ground loops, but there are several ways this can be approached and some seem dubious).

P


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## bklynsoulja (Dec 27, 2013)

hire a real professional.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*Electrical work in Quebec*

I was looking into finding a copy of the Canadian Electrical Code from a local library, to learn more about the rules here. I came across an interesting web article about laws regarding electrical work in my province (Quebec) which has a long history of wacky laws and policies. It's ironic, because it seems that there are very strict laws here against DIY electrical work - however the licensed electrician is not much to write home about it seems...

A few choice quotes:



> Vancouver sits on one extreme where owner/occupants can take a course on such things as minor electrical work, get their permits and do it themselves. Ontario allows minor work like changing outlets and switches without any training as long as the owner/occupant obtains a permit. Quebec has decreed that changing a light bulb is as close as an occupant is allowed to get to any electrical wires. That is the technical side of the law and each jurisdiction seems to have arrived at their particular type of regulation via very different reflections.


and:



> Apparently the Quebec absolute interdiction was pushed into place by the insurance industry trying to reduce house fires caused by electrical installations. At one point they tried to forbid the selling of all electrical wire and fixtures in retail outlets, restricting access to licensed professionals, but the courts judged that freedom of commerce prevailed and the retail stores could legally sell everything you need to build a house -- of course assuming you were purchasing it to give to your electrician to install it. Given the volume of electrical sales in the retail outlets, this policy has been a dismal failure with the consequence that an owner/occupant cannot even get his DIY installation inspected and rendered safe because he wasn't supposed to do it in the first place. Just to add total incoherence to the Quebec situation, Hydro Quebec advertises and subsidizes the retail sale of 240v setback thermostats directly to homeowners -- all of which are dangerous to work with without knowledge and none of which are legal for the homeowner to install themselves. It is fairly easy to get these 240v thermostats to work, but do you know if you have too many or too long wires jammed into that electrical box violating the electrical code fire safety provisions? This well functioning box could overheat and cause a fire! There is more to safe wiring than just making something go on and off.


The whole article, by Jon Eakes, is here.

Thank goodness we have licensed electricians here to protect us from ourselves :no:

P


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I've always used the blue electrical boxes. They don't have those bumpouts that accept the screws from the outlets sticking out. http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/40...81_a_7c40327&gclid=CLisiMnl-bsCFfBDMgod7w8AfA


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*Checked Canadian Electrical Code*

After the concerns about the lack of staples, I got a copy of the Canadian Electrical Code from the library. It seems that what he did was actually legal here:



> 12-510 Running of cable between boxes and fittings (see Appendix G)
> (1) Where the cable is run between boxes and fittings, it shall be supported by straps or other devices located
> within 300 mm of every box or fitting and at intervals of not more than 1.5 m throughout the run.
> (2) Cables run through holes in joists or studs shall be considered to be supported.
> ...


For the isolated ground, he used cable with three insulated conductors normally used for 240V circuits. Apparently it used to be accepted practice in the Canada to put green tape on the red conductors to show they were being used as ground, but this practice creates the possibility that somebody might in the future connect one the red conductor to the opposite phase in the box, particularly if the green tape falls off somehow - that would be - uh - bad. I suppose he saved some money or time by not buying three conductor cable with a green insulated ground conductor.

It seems the use of a red grounding conductor violates 4-036 (1):



> 4-036 Colour of conductors
> (1) Insulated grounding or bonding conductors shall
> (a) have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes; or
> (b) if larger than No. 2 AWG, be permitted to be suitably labelled or marked in a permanent manner
> ...


There's a discussion of this issue here.


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## homerenovator (Aug 2, 2012)

Proton said:


> After the concerns about the lack of staples, I got a copy of the Canadian Electrical Code from the library. It seems that what he did was actually legal here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure the red is supposed to be a ground, I think I can see a bare ground in almost all of the boxes. the red wire could mean it was going to be a half switched outlet?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I usually use the plastic boxes, but one problem is they don't work well with roto-tools (Dremel, Rotozip) that use a drywall bit to cut cleanly around them - you can cut right through the box if you're not careful. Of course that's a moot point in this case - looks like they took a dozen stabs at this one just getting the Rotozip started. That is a guy who definitely does not know how to use a drywall bit.

Regarding isolated ground, I think you're better off putting in a dedicated line rather than messing with ground on a circuit used for something else. If anyone uses a hairdryer or microwave or heaven only knows what, it can easily cause audible disturbance in the line.


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

diyer111 said:


> Are you sure the red is supposed to be a ground, I think I can see a bare ground in almost all of the boxes. the red wire could mean it was going to be a half switched outlet?


Hi - that would be a very reasonable thing to assume. Because the room is used for recording, the electrician proposed installing isolated ground receptacles. He showed me how he would connect them, and definitely said the red conductor would go to the ground pin on the plug. The Ontario safety bulletin I linked to suggests this arrangement used to be a common practice (with green tape on the ground conductor) but it's now against Canadian Code.

I later realized that the Electrician had only the foggiest notion of what isolated ground was, and proposed several different wirings until finally doing something that makes absolutely no difference.

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

jeffnc said:


> Regarding isolated ground, I think you're better off putting in a dedicated line rather than messing with ground on a circuit used for something else. If anyone uses a hairdryer or microwave or heaven only knows what, it can easily cause audible disturbance in the line.


Thanks, Jeff.

I agree that isolated ground is probably kind of useless for audio, even if done according to the standard used in hospitals (and I'm a physicist working in a hospital). There seem to be different interpretations of IG - what my electrician proposed is to have the receptacle boxes bonded to the normal unsheathed ground wire, and connect the ground pin of the plug to an insulated ground conductor (the red wire) that also runs back to the panel's ground bus. The receptacle used is an orange IG unit in which there is no connection between the mounting straps (and box) and the ground pin. This does isolate the chassis ground from the receptacle box, but I don't see any way that this measure alone will prevent ground loops.

If each receptacle has its own, dedicated ground conductor leading back to the panel (often called star grounding), then I could see how this might help (I'm still trying to really convince myself). However, my electrician wired all the receptacles in a parallel, daisy-chain style, as per usual practice. This does create "loops" if you have audio equipment plugged into two different outlets, and these loops can have 60Hz hum induced in them from oscillating magnetic fields associated with normal household wiring (Faraday's law of induction).

So at the end of the day, I'll get weird looking orange outlets that probably provide no audio benefit at all (I agreed when I was young and foolish and thought all licensed contractors know everything :laughing. I did also ask him to keep all the receptacles on a single branch circuit, ideally separated from inductive loads like refrigerator etc. I have no idea if he did that... the room will also have a baseboard heater but I actually doubt these are an issue.

I'm kicking myself because I don't usually go in for electrical gimmicks like fancy cables etc. I sort of assumed he'd do something like star grounding (which is still probably overkill) but he didn't. Unlike the ailments that Monster Cables claim to cure, ground loops are very real and a big pain in the *ss in audio although they are easy to eliminate with proper setup.

P


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

*Update*

I've been pretty busy lately, partly catching up on work/family stuff that piled up while I was getting my head around this situation. Partly it was spending a few consecutive nights ripping out the drywall to do it again myself with RC and other measures. Seeing it done so badly just strengthened my resolve to do it really well (I hope that will be the outcome).

The room has been gutted of the original drywall, and is now back down to studs. It was a lot of work to get it off - had to dig though mud and tape to find screws. I could have used a sledgehammer, but I wanted to minimize mess and avoid damaging framing etc. Was also working late at night so trying to keep the noise down (ironic, huh - soundproofing and all...)

Here's a more recent pic:










What's funny is that I found a *lot* of the screws completely missed the studs, and the studs themselves deviate all over from 16" spacing (they're between 14" and 17"). Thank goodness I didn't get these guys to do RC!

P


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Are those bottom plates pressure treated or at least have sill seal under them?


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## Proton (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> Are those bottom plates pressure treated or at least have sill seal under them?


Thanks for catching that - the plates are not PT but they put Duchesne vapour barrier under. I think this is acceptable. See pic:


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