# Stone Veneer Fireplace Surround



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Reinforcement is a good thing. Are you sure that just putting the lath on the sides will support the weight of the entire wall? 

Seems to me that a corner lath would support the wall better.

ED


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Thanks for the quick response. I've attached a pic that I think will better explain the question. I'm not sure if I should wrap lath around the 90 degree corner. I will be using it for the entire face of the fireplace. You can see by this pic, I'm planning on using outside corner stones that only extend onto the adjacent wall by a few inches. Not sure if I need to lath around that edge? Thoughts?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Irish,

Would you like a recommendation from a guy that has done scores of these things over the years?

If so then don't be a glutton for punishment. Use cement board and set the stones with modified ceramic tile thinset. Done in no time.

You don't need a moisture barrier, you don't need metal lath, you don't need a scratch coat.

I know I know...you already have all of that stuff...because that's the way the faux stone sellers sell the system. More money for them.

_You do know that metal mesh has a top and a bottom when you hang it, correct?_


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Thanks Bud- I'm absolutely open to tips like that. The good news is I haven't bought anything yet. If I can get out the door using concrete board and thinset, then I think I'm ok with that. I'm assuming I still backbutter the stones then? Would I still wrap the concrete board around the corner then too, or is the face enough on this project?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

I still think that a corner reinforcing lath is a good idea, because it will support the weight better than just a thinset holding up the stones. 

It looks as if your surround is going to go the entire height of the room, and that is a lot of weight up high to pull away and fall on a tyke, or the puppy, or even just a table. 

And I always build for extra strength, mainly due to the fact that I weigh more than the average human, and have fell through things that are built for the "little guy" to use. 

ED


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

de-nagorg said:


> I still think that a corner reinforcing lath is a good idea, because it will support the weight better than just a thinset holding up the stones.
> 
> It looks as if your surround is going to go the entire height of the room, and that is a lot of weight up high to pull away and fall on a tyke, or the puppy, or even just a table.
> 
> ...


It does ED- the surround would tentatively go from floor to ceiling, which is about 8ft. I haven't decided yet if I'm going to just go up halfway and plop a mantel and be done. I'm thinking aesthetically speaking, it would look better if the whole thing were stoned all the way up. If I were to do that, would I mount the mantel FIRST and stone around, or would I mount the mantel on top of the veneer? Thoughts?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Listen to Bud.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

I will add, 1/4 Hardibacker is fine, but you need a good schedule of screws that hit studs, not just sheetrock (you will miss a lot, but if 25%+ hit studs you will be OK. Schedule: 16" OC horizontal (or whatever your studs are) X 24" OC vertical. Hardibacker is marked with screw holes for TILE not faux stone, FYI.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

I have seen this done by those that say that they have done hundreds before, and it still failed, mostly due to the fact that they rush the job, to get paid faster, sometimes using too dry of a thinset, or not letting the lower get set well and putting the upper on before the lower cured enough to support the added weight. 

You should put up the mantle (if you want one) first, that way it looks more built-in, than added later, with odd caulking/ grouting lines around it. 

ED


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

The cement board is going to provide the necessary "tooth" for the modified thinset, I wouldn't omit it anywhere stone is going. Use screws. You'll have studs in all of the corners to fasten to so no big deal there. I would use 1/4" cement board and a little construction adhesive. Regular cement board is dusty so apply the adhesive in gobs not little squiggles. 

The thinset will develop a high bond strength overnight and all you are dealing with is shear. Those stones aren't going anywhere. The stones will have a tendency to slide so have something for spacers nearby in case you want to hold something in place until the thinset dries. Not all of the stones will slide but it can happen.

Is this going to be a "dry-stack" look? If so be sure to tighten up the joints so you can't see the wallboard.

If you stop short of the ceiling and do a mantle then install the mantle first so you have something to dress the stones to. When placing the mantle consider the coverage a stone provides so that you can land the stones in the right place.

Depending on the stone you choose they typically average 2-4-6 inches of elevation in different multiples.

Be sure to draw "level" marks on both legs then hit those marks the same on both legs as you go up. There is nothing worse than going up two legs separately and the stones topping-out at two different elevations when it comes time to move across and meet if you go to the ceiling or a new mantle.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Bud Cline said:


> The cement board is going to provide the necessary "tooth" for the modified thinset, I wouldn't omit it anywhere stone is going. Use screws. You'll have studs in all of the corners to fasten to so no big deal there. I would use 1/4" cement board and a little construction adhesive. Regular cement board is dusty so apply the adhesive in gobs not little squiggles.
> 
> The thinset will develop a high bond strength overnight and all you are dealing with is shear. Those stones aren't going anywhere. The stones will have a tendency to slide so have something for spacers nearby in case you want to hold something in place until the thinset dries. Not all of the stones will slide but it can happen.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bud- great stuff! Most of the videos I've watched say to start with the outside 90 degree corners, then work top down. You're suggesting that I do the corners then work bottom up? I'm thinking of going with a cut stone look, so no stacked stone. This means I will have to come back in and grout the joints after the stones have cured. As for the "level" marks you've referenced, that's a great tip. Would I draw horizontal level marks and vertical?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If you are neat, you can go bottom to top, if sloppy, better go top down.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Irish916 said:


> Thanks Bud- great stuff! Most of the videos I've watched say to start with the outside 90 degree corners, then work top down. You're suggesting that I do the corners then work bottom up? I'm thinking of going with a cut stone look, so no stacked stone. This means I will have to come back in and grout the joints after the stones have cured. As for the "level" marks you've referenced, that's a great tip. Would I draw horizontal level marks and vertical?


If you were to buy-into the suppliers method then "top-down" is do-able because the stones will in most cases stay put when you press them into place. Thinset on the other hand won't allow you to start at the top, the stones will slide every time. That's why (with thinset) you start at the bottom.

And yes, you begin with the corner pieces. I would set a single corner stone (on both sides) then finish out that line/course before moving upward. You wouldn't want to set all of the corners before continuing the courses.

Establish the level lines. Then be sure the stones left of the firebox and right of the firebox land at the same elevation. The stones don't have to hit the mark exactly, that would be difficult to judge when laying out the lines. The stones do however need to arrive at the exact same elevation left and right of the firebox using the level lines as a guide. If you miss a mark on one side be sure to also miss that same mark the same amount on the other side. The marks/level lines are there so that your eye doesn't lie to you.

Vertical layout lines aren't necessary because the stones are different lengths and will have a random pattern.

The biggest problem you will encounter is if you rise to the ceiling. Each corner will be set first then you have to fill in-between. Usually stone won't fit perfectly so some cuts will be necessary. You don't want to make cuts of stones in the field, the cuts tend to have a different look to them. I would cut only to fit to the corner stones. For example start a course from the left and cut the last stone on the right where it meets the opposite corner. Then on the next course start from the right and cut the last stone on the left. Alternating cuts with each course.

It's not at all as difficult as it sounds. Piece-o-cake!

When mortar-time rolls around you would want to use a bag to install the mortar/grout. Big Box stores sell large (pastry bags) for this purpose. Fill the mortar joints then wait for a short time to tool the joints if so desired. Then wait again and brush the mortar joints with a coarse brush to dress the mortar joints. If you brush too soon while the mortar is still too wet you will paint the mortar onto the stones and you will never get it off. If you wait "just long enough" then brushing won't smear the mortar on the stones.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Bud has the proper technique, so take his advice, I would add "Take Your Time",

I Would also buy a few extra stones, just in case that I make a mistake and want to correct it. 

You being a beginner this is nearly guaranteed to happen. Even an old practiced hand slips at times and makes an error, and the best will admit this and know how to correct it before it gets too far out of alignment that it looks like a drunk sailor did the job.

Check your horizontal alignment often, and keep them as near even as possible, if one gets a little off compensate on the other side by adjusting it back to even. 

Another little point, there is no perfect level, it just ain't going to happen. 
Get it as close as possible, and give it a rest. 

ED


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If it slides, you have too much thinset. Apply the stone to the wall and slide it into place. It should "grind" as you get into position, and it will not slide.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Tscarborough said:


> If it slides, you have too much thinset. Apply the stone to the wall and slide it into place. It should "grind" as you get into position, and it will not slide.


It would "grind" into place using thinset and concrete board, or is that only found when using the other technique of lath and scratch coat!?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Tscarborough said:


> If it slides, you have too much thinset. Apply the stone to the wall and slide it into place. It should "grind" as you get into position, and it will not slide.


In more than three decades of doing this,* I have NEVER found that to be the case.* The backs of those stones are seriously irregular. They aren't flat like a piece of tile is and you won't be getting any suction-effect, especially on a vertical surface. Cement board immediately begins to wick moisture from the thinset and grinding a stone into place will allow the board to draw too much moisture too soon thereby compromising the bond.

In fact I should have mentioned earlier that you should also use a wet sponge to wipe the cement board a few minutes ahead of applying the thinset. Let the moisture soak into the board. The thinset is applied to the stone with a margin trowel, not to the board. You then squish the stone into place and leave it alone.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Irish916 said:


> It would "grind" into place using thinset and concrete board, or is that only found when using the other technique of lath and scratch coat!?


Don't let these guys send you into over-thinking-orbit. Forget about the grind thing. Both methods would produce a "grind" sound, means nothing.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

The grinding sound is the tallest nubs of the rough back hitting on the hardibacker (Never used cement board, couldn't speak to that). That is when you know you have the stone fully bedded. On a scratchcoat, you do not use thinset, you use regular Type S mortar with a little bonding agent added.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

(And I have done hundreds, if not thousands of SqFt of thin real stone, fake stone, and thin brick over both scratchcoat and Hardibacker, but only for 20 years so you have me there).


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## stonecutter (May 23, 2014)

I didn't think that stuff has been around that long. 30 years? That's a shame.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Phony molded stone has been around for hundreds of years.


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## stonecutter (May 23, 2014)

Large dimensional pieces...not the kind in this thread.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Here ya go. You guys should try to know more about the business you claim to be in!

http://www.haddonstone.com/en/subcat/history-artificial-stone


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## stonecutter (May 23, 2014)

Bud Cline said:


> Here ya go. You guys should try to know more about the business you claim to be in!
> 
> http://www.haddonstone.com/en/subcat/history-artificial-stone


I'm not in the artificial stone business, and I never claimed to be. I'll leave that kind of product to carpenters and tile guys.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

stonecutter said:


> I'm not in the artificial stone business, and I never claimed to be. I'll leave that kind of product to carpenters and tile guys.


Then why are you jumping into this thread when you don't know anything about the subject? Are you challenging my" thirty-years in the business" claim?

What's "a shame"? What the hell is that supposed to mean anyway?


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## stonecutter (May 23, 2014)

Bud Cline said:


> Then why are you jumping into this thread when you don't know anything about the subject? Are you challenging my" thirty-years in the business" claim?
> 
> What's "a shame"? What the hell is that supposed to mean anyway?


Since you asked...

It's a public forum isn't it? And you are the one assuming I don't know anything about it...I've done less than 5000 sqft over the years, because I was requested to use it. None of it failed and the client are satisfied.

The 30 years comment directly addressed one specific thing...not realizing how long the same type of cast stone that was pictured by the op, has been in use. Something I mentioned and you overlooked...I wasn't talking about large dimensional cast stone which has been around longer than 'a couple hundred' years. 

It's a shame to me because I'm a traditional builder, and I don't like how construction has moved to fast and cheap....but it is what it is. It my opinion right or wrong to anyone else.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Hey, Bud, you should probably dial it back a notch. Faux stone as we are discussing in this thread, as opposed to generic adhered veneer, has only been common since the sixties (when re-usable silicon molds were developed) and popular since the 80s. Adhered veneer itself is as old as masonry.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Sorry- just a few more clarifying questions as I'm about to start this project. 

1. Can you recommend a quality thin set mortar to use with stone veneer? 
2. Bud, you said wet the concrete backerboard, but apply the thinset to back of the stone? Am I not laying down any thin set directly onto the backboard with my notched trowel?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Are you using concrete board or hardibacker? Any polymer modified thinset is fine for hardibacker. For hardibacker, you do not wet it or apply thinset with a notched trowel, you you butter the back of each stone 80-90%.


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## NickTheGreat (Jul 25, 2014)

I appreciate the discussions in this thread. I'm a lurker, but have been contemplating how to redo our 1994 "Brass and Oak" fireplace.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Tscarborough said:


> Are you using concrete board or hardibacker? Any polymer modified thinset is fine for hardibacker. For hardibacker, you do not wet it or apply thinset with a notched trowel, you you butter the back of each stone 80-90%.


Thank you Tscarborough- so if I happen to go with concrete board like durock, does the same premise apply? Wet the concrete board and just backbutter the stones 80-90% and stick and pray!?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

I have never used concrete board for thin stone and don't think I would.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Sorry- one follow-up on using Hardibacker. I'm on their website, but I don't see where they explain which side of the board to use in vertical applications. There is the nice grid side, and then there is the other side which is rough. In the pics of the floor install, the grid side is facing up- which is the side you would adhere tiles to. In the pics of the wall install, it doesn't appear the grid side is is facing out. Can you please advise how I might want to install this hardibacker board? Grid side facing out or do I install the boards with grid side to the sheetrock and the rough side facing out?


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

I just wanted to follow-up for anyone tracking on this thread to share my results. I want to thank a few folks on here for providing their feedback as I feel it saved me a lot of time. Let me recap what I did. I pulled off the old wood surround and removed the gas fireplace. I ended up going with the 1/4 hardibacker treatment or the standard lath/scratch. I had a custom 86 x 24 brownstone hearth cut. A friend had to help me get it in place- HEAvY! I used Laticrete MVIS to fix the stones to the wall. Let me tell you, I'm VERY impressed with that product. Very little sag, if any. Pricey, but bonds the big heavy stones without any issue at all. In 20 minutes, they were pretty much set up. In an hour, you couldn't get them of the wall. I finished up the joints with Quikrete Stone Veneer Mortar. 

As this was my very first time doing any masonry work, I'm pleased with how it turned out. More importantly, my wife is pleased too  It's not perfect. Some of joints are big. I laid a few stones vertically, which some guys say not to do. I just did what I thought looked good to my eye. Thanks again for all of your help on this one!!


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

that looks great to me, I'd buy it . 

A great showing and those vertical stones look as natural as the horizontal, you do not see in nature all the stones, logs, or anything else all lined up neatly. 

The most important thing is SWMBO loves it. 



ED


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

It looks great, and so long as you are happy (as well you should be), then it is all good.

But, since this will be read by others doing their own, I want to point out that the stones on the upper left edge are all the same length horizontally, leaving that long straight vertical joint. This would be a major flaw in real stone construction, a structural flaw. As is, no one will notice it but a stone mason (and you, now that I pointed it out, sorry). Always break the joints horizontally and vertically between courses.


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## Irish916 (Jul 15, 2014)

Thanks TS. Yeah I was watching for those long joints. Ran out of variety with the corners. The photo is a pinch misleading too, as the top two stones are the same length, then the next 3 are the same and 5th one down is as long as the top two. So there is a slight stagger of the joint. Not ideal, I know. I catch your drift.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> It looks great, and so long as you are happy (as well you should be), then it is all good.
> 
> But, since this will be read by others doing their own, I want to point out that the stones on the upper left edge are all the same length horizontally, leaving that long straight vertical joint. This would be a major flaw in real stone construction, a structural flaw. As is, no one will notice it but a stone mason (and you, now that I pointed it out, sorry). Always break the joints horizontally and vertically between courses.


I noticed the LONGGGGGGG head joint instantly, and decided not to post, but since you mentioned it.......:whistling2:


The age-old rule for laying any thin veneer, whether natural thin veneer or cultured, has always been to lay it in the same manner as you'd see in from full veneer stone. As Tscar mentioned, that stone wouldn't want to stand without major temporary support as it was laid.

That being said, I think the job is overall very clean, especially if this is the first time you've done something like this........


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

The general rule of thumb for masonry work is halves, but thirds and quarters are acceptable if that is all that can be done. That is for the amount of lap between vertical joints between courses, as well as the the ratio between the largest units and the smallest. Anything less than a 1/4 of the average size of the unit is normally unacceptable in unitary masonry, with the exception of specific types of stonework, like drystack, where chips are used to fill gaps.


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