# 220V Garage recepticals



## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

daxinarian said:


> Do 220V garage recepticals need to be GFCI protected? If so, where do you find 220V GFCI recepticals (or do you get a GFCI circuit breaker)


I'm not very well versed on the GFCI issue, but as I understand it you want GFCI outlets where-ever electrical outlets are going to be close to water, like by a bathroom vanity or a kitchen cabinet with a sink--the fast action of the GFCI will interrupt the electrical current delivery should someone grab a plug with wet hands and try to stick it into the receptacle, thereby becoming an unintentional ground and getting electrocuted.

Do you plan on having your garage 220-V receptacles near water  ??????

Others with better knowledge of codes, etc. will probably have more info to provide, I'm just functioning on a theoretical basis here........

Good luck!

Dugly


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

daxinarian said:


> Do 220V garage recepticals need to be GFCI protected? If so, where do you find 220V GFCI recepticals (or do you get a GFCI circuit breaker)


GFCI protection is only required for 15 and 20A 120V receptacles. If you want to provide GFCI protection for a 220V receptacle, you must use a GFCI circuit Breaker ($$).


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks HouseHelper, can you (or anyone else) point me to the apropriate code section.

YerDugliness: NEC requires all outlets in a garge to be GFCI (there used to be some exceptions, but 2008 got rid of alot of them). I wasn't sure if 220 was an exception to the "all outlets" rule or not.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

daxinarian said:


> YerDugliness: NEC requires all outlets in a garge to be GFCI (there used to be some exceptions, but 2008 got rid of alot of them). I wasn't sure if 220 was an exception to the "all outlets" rule or not.


There is certainly NOT an "all outlets" rule. 

*2005 NEC

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel*_

*(A) Dwelling Units *All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. 

(2)	Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use 

Exception No. 1 to (2): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2 to (2): A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8)._



The 2008 NEC removed both exceptions to 210.8(A)(2). 
So for 2008 folks it's not "all outlets". It's "_All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles_".
BIG difference.


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> There is certainly NOT an "all outlets" rule.
> 
> *2005 NEC*
> 
> ...


Now you've got my attention--this renovation program I've undertaken on the old family home includes an old garage. It was devoid of electricity for 50 years or more, until I had 100 amp service run to it during a recent upgrade of electrical service for the home on the property.

At this point the floor *is* the ground, but in the near future I plan on having a 4" concrete floor poured in the garage. This means it will *not* be at or below grade level as specified above.

I fully understand the need for GFCI in a ground level situation--we had a rainstorm last summer with heavy wind, that wind blew rainwater at least halfway into that garage. That could present a hazard!

So.........do I need to use GFCI outlets in that garage or does the (future) floor being above grade level void the requirement.......:confused1:

Dugly


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

YerDugliness said:


> At this point the floor *is* the ground, but in the near future I plan on having a 4" concrete floor poured in the garage. This means it will *not* be at or below grade level as specified above.


Sorry, but this certainly IS at grade. 
You will need GFIs pretty much everywhere but the ceiling.

Whether you need them in the ceiling hinges on whether you are under the 2005 or the 2008 NEC, or some other code.


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Sorry, but this certainly IS at grade.
> You will need GFIs pretty much everywhere but the ceiling.
> 
> Whether you need them in the ceiling hinges on whether you are under the 2005 or the 2008 NEC, or some other code.


Rather unique situation here, a very small SW KS town that has absolutely NO codes, no permits, nor any inspectors/inspections. The town has *one* full time employee who maintains the city's water system, the city property in the town, and the dirt roads in town. I asked him about codes and his answer was to just make sure to have somebody who knew what they are doing wire the new electrical service in. I did, hired a licensed electrician, but I felt that I could handle all the wiring of the circuits once he had the service line attached to the service panel.

So, as far as code requirements, there may be none, I don't know and certainly the only employee of the small town doesn't. Maybe there is a state requirement, there doesn't seem to be any county requirement. I realize that the NEC stands for "National" electrical code, does that apply even though no other code or enforcement system exists?

Sometimes I'm lost, just fumbling in the dark, other times I feel as if I know what I'm doing and find out through threads like this that I'm sorely mistaken. So far I've only installed 2 outlets, one in each of two 30 amp circuits I installed, maybe I need to replace them with GFCI outlets??

So, given the scenario I've just drawn out, other than just saying "...it's code" (which doesn't *seem* to apply in that small town) what reason would I have to *need* GFCI outlets in a garage where there is no water?

Thanks, as you can see this is becoming quite a learning experience for me!!

Dugly


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't know what purpose you installed the 30 amp circuit for but general purpose circuits are limited to a max. of 20 amps.

Dryer circuits would be fine at 30 amps, but they are for a specific use, not general purpose.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I know there areas like you describe, I just don't believe that there are no codes in place to promote safe building practices. 
OK, maybe I just don't _want_ to believe it.

IMO you can never go wrong by following at least a bare minimum of code standards.

IMO installing GFIs in a garage IS a good idea, water or not. By this I mean for 120v, 15 & 20 amp recptacles.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

I think you'll find the reasoning behind having GFCI 15 & 20 A / 120 V receptacles is due to the floor of a garage. A dirt or a concrete floor can be conductive. Wanna stand barefoot on a wet dirt or concrete floor and touch a 'live' wire?? Not me. It's been my training that the code writers figure 99.9999999% of garage floors are dirt, concrete, brick, etc. and conductive. Not many are built to be insulated from electric shock.

As far as code requirements...I'm sure your state has adopted the NEC, at least a more current version. Michigan is one cycle behind. Nov 2007, we finally got the green light to use the 2005 version.


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

Jim Port said:


> I don't know what purpose you installed the 30 amp circuit for but general purpose circuits are limited to a max. of 20 amps.


I installed 30 amp breakers and 10-2 with ground wiring so that I could have a high load limit. I foresee using this garage in the future for a variety of purposes, one of which is a pottey studio. I'm also quite involved with sports/racing cars and sometimes that requires a good bit of power. I just wanted to be sure I had at least 2 circuits (one on each side of the garage) that would support a heavy load. I do plan on installing various other circuits, both outlet and lighting, that will be 20 amp/12-2 with ground or 15 amp/14-2 with ground, as well as 220-V circuits of various ratings that will be needed to support the pottery production--things like kilns and drying cabinets, etc.

This structure may also be used for some experimentation with solar projects, I foresee a small greenhouse structure that could be heated by a batch-type solar water heater...

Dugly


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

YerDugliness said:


> I installed 30 amp breakers and 10-2 with ground wiring so that I could have a high load limit.


I'm not mocking you or anything by any means Dugly, but just curious. Are you saying that you hooked up the 10/2 directly to receptacles, protected by 30A breaker(s)?? If so, what is the amperage rating of the receptacle?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

YerDugliness said:


> I installed 30 amp breakers and 10-2 with ground wiring so that I could have a high load limit.


I agree with SD.
I hope you only did this with 30A receptacles!


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

SD515 said:


> I'm not mocking you or anything by any means Dugly, but just curious. Are you saying that you hooked up the 10/2 directly to receptacles, protected by 30A breaker(s)?? If so, what is the amperage rating of the receptacle?


Yep, that's what I did. The receptacles were the type with one vertical lug slot on the left and the right side slot a sideways T shape. It was the highest rated receptacle I could find in that small SW KS county, probably only 20 amp rated, I don't know, I just told them I wanted the strongest receptacles they had and that's what they gave me. I'd check, but I'm in TX right now.....

Like I said, this has all been a real learning experience. I'm looking for 30 amp receptacles, Speedy Petey mentioned them, so they must be available, anyone know where a guy could get some??

Really, though, I just wanted 30 amp capacity for the entire circuit, having had some 20 amp breakers flip off in the house when I used a small 1500 watt electric room heater and some other electrical items on the same circuit. I could foresee quite a few power hungry electrical tools being used at the same time if we're involved in an intense mechanical project, didn't want to have to worry about the breaker flipping off. Right now there is only one outlet on each of the two circuits, but that will change soon :yes: . 

Dugly


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

You CANNOT do this Yer. Nope, no you can't.

You have 20A rated receptacles and that's the highest you can for general use receptacles. 
A 30A is a special receptacle that only certain things will fit.

Replace those 30A breakers with 20A and keep the wiring and devices.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

I'd consider just adding a sub-panel out in your work shop. Inside the room if there isn't going to be dust or such flying in the air, like woodworking. Outside, around the corner or something if there is.
I'm guessing they're just 20A recepts, especially if they're duplex. I know you can get 30A recpts, but I haven't seen a 30A duplex before...maybe there is, just haven't seen one.


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

How about a dedicated 20A circuit for the heater (single 20 outlet on GFCI breaker)? You may never need that GFCI protection, but that one time..... Bad idea to have 30A protection on devices that are only rated for 20 (Howse the fire insurance?). 
Run multiple circuits and alternate them. Circuit A outlet, then circuit B outlet, circuit A outlet (or C), etc. This way you're less likely to overload a single circuit. Good luck. pete


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

petey_c said:


> How about a dedicated 20A circuit for the heater (single 20 outlet on GFCI breaker)? You may never need that GFCI protection, but that one time..... Bad idea to have 30A protection on devices that are only rated for 20 (Howse the fire insurance?).
> Run multiple circuits and alternate them. Circuit A outlet, then circuit B outlet, circuit A outlet (or C), etc. This way you're less likely to overload a single circuit. Good luck. pete


The location in which the 30 amp breakers/20 amp outlets are located is the garage, an all metal structure, even has metal work areas. There *is*, however, a combustible source--damn trumpet vines have worked their way between the siding and are on the inside of the structure. That will change quite soon, long before the electrical system is ever used. So far all I have done with it is power a cheap electric weed-eater, no stress on the system yet. I'll change the breakers for 20's and feel safer about it, thanks guys!

OK, but it gets worse. This whole issue came about b/c I recently upgraded the electrical service to the house to enable me to power a huge electric HWOD unit. I had to run 6-3 w/ground into the basement, so as long as I had the wall covering off and access to the basement, I ran 3 new circuits, each on a 30 amp breaker, and each 10-2 with ground, each with no terminal gear attached and the breaker in the "OFF" position right now. 

It will be an easy matter to change out those 3 breakers for 20 amp, will do that, too. Sounds like this was another of my harebrained ideas:stupid: !

Will there be any negative effect from me leaving the 10 gauge wiring in? Right now I *could* get it out if need be, but I'd rather leave it there since I've already gone to considerable trouble to conceal the wires. One of those 10 gauge wires could definitely become a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the heater, it goes to the right place.

Thanks for the heads-up on this, guys. I've put considerable work and $$ into this project and wouldn't want to take any chances :no: . 

Dugly


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

The only problem using the 10 wire on the 20 amp circuit is the extra money you paid for it.
It will also be tougher to put the wire on the outlet.


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## YerDugliness (Jun 2, 2008)

jbfan said:


> The only problem using the 10 wire on the 20 amp circuit is the extra money you paid for it.
> It will also be tougher to put the wire on the outlet.


Oh, the $$, lordy-lordy, if you only knew the whole story you'd realize why a 1/2 of a 250' roll of 10-2 w/ground was the least $$ I threw away on the whole project  !

And, man, I sure found out about getting the wires on the outlet, that stuff is *TUFF*!

It's good to know that I can leave the 10 gauge in place, thanks for that bit of good news........I can easily remove one of the wires I ran, leaving two of the 10 gauge circuits in place and replacing he shortest of the circuits with the correct gauge 12-2 w/ground, it's only about 5' into the basement, only about 10' long in total.

Thanks again, guys--I'm feeling much better about being able to correct this problem I created for myself :blush: .

Dugly


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Something you can do is pigtail a piece of #12 to the #10 and then put it on the outlet.


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