# Do we have to break the concrete floor for a shower drain?



## Tommy Plumb

I'm confused. You're installing a shower and your drain is in the wall? If you need to move the drain 2ft you need to chop the concrete.


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## clasact

I think you might want to post a picture or something cus I am a bit lost here also


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## mjdonovan

If you are planning to put a shower in a basement, then you will either need to cut out a section of the concrete floor for running the drain pipes or build an elevated floor to allow the drain pipes to sit underneath it. In either case the drain pipes will need to flow into a pump up basin or out to the sewer line.


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## Termite

The reason you need to break out a little concrete is so you can fine tune the drain's location and install a trap. You can't just connect the drain to the pipe unless a trap is already installed. 

Don't be intimidated! This is a relatively easy DIY project. Rent a small demolition hammer (mini-jackhammer) and slowly remove pieces of concrete around the pipe until you have room to work. Wear ear and eye protection for sure. A concrete saw could also be used, but beware of dust! 

Once your drain is plumbed, bed it in gravel...I mean surround it with gravel for support. Clean the edges of the slab so they're free of dust and dirt, then mix a bag of concrete and patch the hole.


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## Mechelle

*I am going to the concrete*

Thank you, Marlin, Clasact mjdonovan and thekctermite.
It seems that breaking the concrete is the way that I have to go and I am going to. 

I am 5'7, 116 lb. My husband is not much bigger, neither. It was a huge challenge to lift up the 4x8 drywall to the ceiling. thekctermite is right, I am half way backwards already whenever I hear things about concrete. I thought it is built for lasting forever. 

With that being said, would you think that I could handle a drivehamer? I have a circular saw, a cheap 12" firestorm model. Is cutting using a saw easier than hammering? Sorry about all these dumb qustions but I (we) am freshly out of the college and trying to be a diyer. The concrete floor is 3 " thick. After breaking it, what I will be expecting? digging and cutting the existing pipe and extend it to the desired location? I hate to ask but would hiring a professional a good idea? Would any contractor willing to take just the concrete work? I doubt. I will do it myself. 

Thanks guys, 

Mechelle


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## clasact

your little firestorm is NOT going to cut it and I really dont think your going to be abel to handel the jackhammer even a small one(my wife is your size and she cant).I got a little better picture of what your dealing with now.Once you have the concret broken out and I would make it a bit larger then the pipe so you have a little room to work the clean out the area cut the pipe and put it where you need it to go fill in a little gravel and recement it.Gettting a contractor or plumber to do it would be the best thing but I really dont know if one will come to do just that and it wont be cheep but you could try if you dont want to tackel it or you dont want to rent the hammer or a concret saw(what a mess that is) One other point make sure you clean out any concret the falls into the pipe or later you will be working on a clog
just a thought here instead of a shower pan have you thought about making your owne shower also if you were in college you know their are no dumb questions just dummies who try to do things the know nothing about without asking first so tell hubby we all need to ask things now and again


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## Mechelle

clasact,

Hahaha, you really cracked my up. 

The pipe now has a cap on it that might help prevent it from falling concrete debries. I still want to handle it myself. Like said: be:boxing: a man, man! 

My own customized-shower base? Why not? That would be a lot easier than breaking the concrete. I like the idea and I also prefer the tile and slope (gravel?)work than the hammer. My husband said the drain has already had the trap down bellow the concrete (he called the builder). But the 2" drain pipe is one inch inside the drywall and one inch outside, I would need to build the shower base drain into the wall literally. I will go home and take a picture and post tomorrow. I will also let him know your "asking first" theory. :yes:

Mechelle


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## Termite

I'm not talking about a jackhammer. I'm talking about a demolition hammer, and yes, you can handle it. If you can't, your husband certainly can.

It is something like this one...


They have chisel attachments that chip away at the concrete. It might take a while, but it is small and easier to handle than a regular jackhammer. I agree, a jackhammer isn't for people barely over 100 pounds. :no:


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## 4just1don

That machine pictured above is the girly option,,,REAL men use old fashion sledge hammers and or 5 lb. short handled hammers with cement chisel/drill like they hand drill rock on "little house".

better yet take a rotary hammer drill and drill along each side of proposed track and connect holes with big hammer. once you get started and its hollow underneath,,,its a breeze


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## Mechelle

*picture of the pipe*

Thanks, guys,

Attached are two pictures of the pipe location. It is in the corner 4' away from the toilet drain. 

Now I have more options! 4just1don mentioned a manual hammer! I googled "sledge hammer" and got this: . It looks like it is for "REAL" men. I am worried about my husband's toes. The 5lb short hammer sounds better. I will go to the Homedepot for a comparison with the demolition hammer rental thekctermite recommended. 60$ rental would cover the hammers I think. I would also get to keep the hammer for weight lifting. But still a decision to be made. :confused1:


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## clasact

Some are going to dis agree with me on this but I am allowed an opinion too.I would defiantly build my own shower around that.You could cut it off low just enough to put a 45 elbow on and extend it out turn it back up ,put a drain on it and build the shower around it.The base would have to be raise a bit to account for the pipe but you wont have to come out very far and it will surely beat breaking up the concrete.Their are many threads on here about building your own shower one even has a video on how to do it ( I tried to find it but couldn't but I know its here I saw it not long ago).Once you have the pipe and drain where you want framed it all in add some gravel and tamp it down then your sand topping cement mix and waterproofing membrane.I think you will be much happier this way since it will have your personal touch and not some premade contraption.If I could figure out how to work the wifes camera I would show you what I did in a situation like yours but I am better with a tools then I am with stuff like that.If you choose to go the other way you don't have much to break out either and a small demo hammer will work just fine as KC said.You would need to get your base and mark how far out you need to come from the wall and then just go to it.IMO you would be happier doing it yourself but thats just my opinion and my wife says I like to make more work for myself


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## Termite

Clasact's idea is a good one. I'm 6'7" tall, so I failed to consider a step-up floor as an option!


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## Mechelle

*I like this option*

Thanks, clasact,

I like this new option. How high would I need to build the base frame? Would 4" be sufficient? 2" for the pipe and maybe 2" more for the topping material?


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## clasact

yes but that all depends on how high your drain sticks up but I'm thinking it shouldn't stick up more then 4-6 inches so a few inches of gravel then sand topping mix which according to the bag should only be used for 2-3 inch depth anyway.also take in to consideration your membrane ,thin set and tile.I had to go with a 10 inch frame around one of mine due to a pipe and drain problem but it still gave me over 7 foot of shower hight.So you would have to decide if this is what you want then fit your pipe and see how high you need to go and if you will have enough hight for it then.Also think about if you put a vent in the shower it self you will need about 4 inches above the ceiling


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## Alan

Are we all actually sure that that really is the shower? 

Could actually be a wet vent IMHO.

I've seen before where builders instead of leaving a box in the concrete for the shower trap, they just build gravel up and leave only 1/8" of concrete over the top of where the trap will be installed to be chipped off later to allow for connecting the shower.

If that 2" line is in the wall, it really possibly is a vent, unless the toilet vent is somewhere else that she knows of.

I would not hesitate for a second (since the builder says the trap is already installed) to dump a quart of water down that puppy and take a flashlight to see if water is standing, before I do anything else.


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## Mechelle

*now height is a issue*

hm..... I never even thought about the height, -- poor planning. It is an issue now. We have a tray ceiling built in the bathroom to cover all the ducts. At where the drain corner is, the lower tray is only 7'3" tall. I have a vent built right above the shower place. The shower enclosure top frame may end up with only inches from the tray and guys like KC would bump into the shower heads. Would that be acceptable artistically and practically? I might have to change plan to have a bathtub which requires less height, maybe? 
Thank you for all your time and precious knowledge.


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## Mechelle

*Vent*

Wow, I am getting more. 

The call to the builder (he found that builder through yellow page) was really not that reliable. I will go home and pour some water to verify if that is a vent. If it is a wet vent, could I still use it as a shower/tub drain? If I could, what things other than building a trap would I have to consider? 

Thank you, thank you,


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## 4just1don

Where ya located?? I would 'borrow' you my 20#rock hammer IF you think you can run it. It comes complete with pipe handle that really really bites when you swing it over your head and smack some solid 'crete. Dont 'member where I ever got it,,,BUT I was definitely 'younger' then!!LOL. Lots less time and swings when that thing gets hummin!!

I remeber NOT so fondly of trying to break some front steps off a house in 105 degree heat index for about 4 hours one night. Found out somebody poured a full set of concrete steps over another set of concrete steps and it was a TOUGH go,,but "Big Bertha" won!!(I was 30 years YOUNGER then!!)

this is NOT pertanent to the thread at hand,,but it works,,,I dont think I can get enough 'postage stamps' on "Big Bertha" to send it your way"!!!LOL. I wish I was small---again!!!Good luck--d-


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## Mechelle

*Hotalanta*

Don, 30 years experiences?! :thumbup: I am a southern girl/woman, in Hotalanta. It is tremendously appreciated but I would not go that far to borrowing tools from you kind helpers. I still need to make some decisions:

1. If it is a wet vent
2. A shower or a tub
3. Break the concrete or raise the frame
4. Hire professionals (I would put this as the last option when all other means prove to be impractical)


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## jogr

First I have to say what no one else has said so that other DIYers who read this thread will not repeat your biggest error:

Always do the rough plumbing First!!!!!!!!!!! When you said you were almost done and oh, how do I hook up the shower - my jaw dropped. The very first thing to do is figure out the rough plumbing. 

OK, for you that's in the past and hopefully you won't have to undo too much to correct it.

I would not recommend a raised shower that drains above the existing concrete to the existing pipe (if it indeed is a trapped shower drain as you believe). My humble opinion is that it would be hard to deal with should it become clogged. The snake would have to zig zag considerably. I prefer to keep the p trap located directly under the drain. This might even be code.

Before you do anything make sure you understand what you have. It's not in the pictures but I take it you have identified the vanity drain. How did you differentiate between the vanity drain and the shower drain? The vanity drain should have a vent continuing upward - does yours? 

As others suggested you can verify that what you believe to be a shower drain is indeed a shower drain by removing the cap and checking for the p trap which should be directly below where the pipe leaves the concrete. After pouring in water and looking down the pipe you should see that the bottom is full of water and doesn't drain away and virtually none of the bend in the pipe is above the water level. If that's the case then you have a P trap or a clogged drain. Pour in more water and look again - if the water level has gone up it's a clog, if the water level is the same as before that's your shower drain. 

Once you've identified the shower drain, you can remove the concrete and move the p trap to the new drain location. Make sure you have the right slope on the drain and that the new drain location isn't too far from the vent.


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## clasact

ok even if you have to step up the base to 6 inches that will give you 6-9 to the top.You will only need 4 inches at the top If you put a vent fan in the shower area( it could be out side the shower) and run the vent duct along the top floor joist to the outside.Check it out when you get home along with the wet vent deal.To bad your that far away if this dont work out I know where you could get a great deal on a real nice soaker tub that you could put up on a raised platform that would be real nice too


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## Mechelle

*Humbled*

I am really humbled in front of all you guys. jogr is right, poor planning comes back and bites you, badly. He is alos right at the vanity drain like he read my plumbing blue print. I do have a vanity drain with the vent continuing upward. It is a little thicker, 2 1/2", about 3 feet to the left of the toilet drain but in the wall. I should have posted the pics to begin with. 

I am a diyer, a first timer, too. This is my first post and I have learnt a lot. I was almost in tears when I realized that there are so many expert-level guys are landing their helping hands to a help-needed-girl like me. 

I thought it would be just a simple concrete-or-not question. But now I think I would have to keep this thread a couple of days more. I will post some pics of the tray ceiling, the 1/2" water pipes, the vanity drain... before I really start hammering. 

You guys are giving me the confidence that help is OUT THERE. You are awesome, :icon_redface:


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## Mechelle

*Is it a trap?*

I cut open the pipe and poured 1 and half gallon water in. At first I could not tell if it is “standing water” because the pipe is so deep. I then used a 29” long copper pipe that reached the bottom of the drain pipe. I rubber band a piece of tissue around copper pipe and did again. It showed 4 - 5 inches of “standing” water. If this is the trap, it is very deep. The water level is 22” below the surface. 
If I break the concrete, it would involve a lot of dirt digging effort. We’ve decided to go with clasact’s recommendation to raise base. The bath venting fan has already been installed and the lower ceiling is actually 90” so the height is well enough. 
We will start this weekend, any tips and guidance for building a raised/customized shower base would be mostly appreciated. Love you guys!


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## clasact

OK so all is looking good for this project.Look into the Kerdie system for your shower the system is pretty fool proof and easy to use.If you do a search you will find they also have a video of how to do it.I really like their waterproof membrane and its not that expensive but I didn't use the drain and pan parts since it wasn't the size I wanted but if you watch the vid it will give you a good ideal of what to do also I know if you search custom showers on here you will find several threads.When you get started dry fit you pipe so you know where you want the drain then frame it all in.Keep us posted and we can help you through it when your done you will love it


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## Mechelle

*About to start*

Thank you, clasact and all,
I am about about to start searching and buying. I will definately keep you guys posted. I am sure that I will be nudging you for ideas and help, soon.


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## clasact

personally I like the natural stone but KCtermite did one in slate that looked real nice you can check it out he has pic posted but thats getting ahead of yourself.Lets get it all framed up the shower floor in ,the backer board up and waterproofed first oh and lets not forget the plumbing it always help in a bath.We are all glad to be of help,By the way how did this go over with hubby


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## jogr

Can you design the shower base so the drain is near the existing drain/wall - maybe out 6 inches. Then you could bust out just a little crete, dig down a foot or so and use a couple 45s to offset the drain pipe over 6". This way future snaking will be easier. Maybe I worry too much LOL.


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## Mechelle

*kerdi*

Guys,

I did not know Kerdi could be used on drywall. Do I still need to add a backer board between Kerdi and the green board? I have the rough plumbing of 1/2" copper pipes but I still need to sweat the mixing valve and the threaded shower head pipe. I thought I would have to tear down the wall board. I am thinking that I may get away with it by knocking out a hole that is big enough to support the blocking for the shower head pipe. I have access to the back of the wall studs. 

Jogr, I think I can go with the 6" off the wall. We want to see what would look like to frame the pipe above the crete. If the raise up does not work, we will break the floor. No, you are not worrying too much, your point is well backed, I am laughing with you. :laughing:

clasact, he is kind of lost right now. We both are easily persuaded away kind of people.  Break... not to... .....


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## mstplumber

Mechelle,

Ive been away for a few days and just saw the thread. I know you have been around and around about this, but I have to urge you to reconsider your decision to build a raised shower. While this may seem like the easiest solution, it just isn't that big a deal to break the concrete. You can rent an electric jackhammer or chipping hammer from most Home Depot stores here in the Atlanta area and I've had some pretty small guys use them with no problems. The main thing is to take small bites. 

The biggest problem with the raised floor is that you are creating a running trap which is much harder to clear if it gets stopped up. You also have very little head room. Since most shower heads are installed between 80" and 82", you don't have much room for a platform. While your stature may allow you to make the shower head lower, this might impact your resale value when you need to move.

One other option that would allow you to at least minimize the amount of jackhammer is to use a prefab shower base with the drain on the end. Sterling makes one designed to replace a standard bathtub.

http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onl...=4459503&contextModule=null&prod_num=72141110

This would still require a little concrete removal and digging, but not nearly as much. The drawback is that it is only 30" wide compared to 34" for a "standard" shower base.

I hope this helps.


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## Mechelle

*We will break it*

mstplumber,

Most have said it would not be that hard to break the concrete. How about I let you be the one who has finally pushed me into it? I will rent a tool or buy a sledge hammer and utilize the entire weekend to knock :hammer:it open. Be it 4 or 30 hours!


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## Tommy Plumb

Raised showers, toilets, etc also look cheesy no matter how much you try and decorate it. Their are exceptions but those are in large very expensive bathrooms.


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## Alan

Last time I checked, renting a roto-hammer for a day is like 30 or 40 bucks. Really cheap.


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## Tommy Plumb

Alan said:


> Last time I checked, renting a roto-hammer for a day is like 30 or 40 bucks. Really cheap.


I bought mine used for about $80 off eBay with a pile of bits. It's copped a couple slabs by just drilling holes every couple inches then smashing it with a hammer. That's only when you need a perfect hold for one reason or another. Usually you just get a hole started with the chipping gun then smash the rest with a hammer. I rarely use the chopping bits. At work we use jackhammers which honestly aren't that much more effecting then the good old 15lb sledge hammer though it is less effort and more noisy/dusty.


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## Mechelle

*Knocked open*

This is what the Lowes rental guys said the "lightest" one for the job we need. $65. I could not lift it up but Dave finally got the job done, with all body parts still attached.:thumbup: 

I would rather have a 34X48 base but have not been able to fine one. I am thinking a kerdi 32X60 kit, $400 is the lowest I know of. With the enclosure, faucet, tile and other parts, I am seeing a $2500 to $3000 shower with DIY. Not cheap.


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## mstplumber

Mechelle,

You should be able to get a Sterling 34 x 48 base for under $200. Go to any Ferguson's in the Atlanta area. They are a plumbing supply. The Sterling bases can be used with or without prefab wall sets. You can see an example of the base only here:

http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onl...m=134503&contextModule=null&prod_num=72121100

Here are some examples of complete showers with walls, the Accord is my favorite design:

http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onl...sional&frm=&module=Shower+Modules&colorIdx=-1

Using the wall sets saves time, and possibly money, compared to installing tile. If you plan to install the tile yourself it might cost a little more to go with the wall sets. If you do want to do the tile yourself here is a great resource to help you learn:

http://www.basicplumbingrepair.com/tile.html

One last thing. You should plan to install whichever shower base you pick in a mortar bed. Here's how. 

First make sure when you move the pipe to where the drain will be that you have dug down to the original p-trap (if there is one) and cut it off at the horizontal pipe. Now measure where the drain opening in your shower will be and put a new p-trap under the new drain opening. Don't glue the vertical piece in the p-trap yet, just make sure it is dry fitted all the way into the fitting on the p-trap, with the vertical pipe from the trap stubbed up about 6" above the floor and capped. Make sure the horizontal pipe is sloped at least 1/4" per foot toward the existing drain pipe. Put something about 6" wide around the pipe (to allow room for the drain) and patch the floor back where you jackhammered.

Now install the drain on the shower base and measure how far below th floor you will need to cut the pipe so it will glue into the drain. Measure and mark the pipe, pull it out of the fitting (this is why you did not glue it yet), cut it and glue it into the p-trap. 

Now get some sand mix (concrete mix with no gravel, sometimes called topping mix) and mix enough to fill the space under the shower base. Dump it out in the shower space and put a piece of plastic (a drop cloth works great) on top of the sand mix. This is in case you ever have to pull it back up. Now install the base, pressing it down into the sand mix and making sure the drain it glued completely onto the pipe. Make sure it is level and let the concrete dry for a day. This will help stabilize the shower base and prevent movement and noise.


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## Mechelle

*90 or 45 elbow or does it matter?*

This is the trap, deep into the weight bearing 2X6 plate. Should I cut at the far corner of the trap? The room between the pipe and the lower concrete layer is smaller than the close-up shot looks like. The second pic showed its odd position. Should I run a 90 elbow out and the P trap up? Could the new trap be higher than where it is now?


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## mstplumber

You are doing a great job so far!

2 suggestions:

Use a concrete chisel (as opposed to the wood chisel in the photo) and chip out a little more concrete at the p-trap. If you chip from the bottom up, and sort of try to break off the corner by putting the chisel about 1/2 way up the concrete (right under the re-bar), it will be surprisingly easy.

Use either a 45 or 90 (or a couple or each) as needed to get the pipe to where you need it. Just maintain a fairly uniform slope on the pipe, it's technically an "S trap" if you offset the pipe upward from where it is to the new trap. This can interfere with the vent for the trap.


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## Mechelle

*Does size matter?*

Thanks mstplumber, I used the little wood chisel to chip away the dirt from the hard reached deep-corner, ant style. But I have to admit that I still need to own a concrete one. 

Now I have a new problem. I bought a bagful of pipes, trap, elbows.... and figured out that they do not fit only when I tried to connect them together. They are different sizes. The main pipe (horizontal one) and the trap are 2" but the one that comes out of the floor (the perpendicular one) is 1 1/2 inches. The 2" trap adapts/changes to fit the 1.5 inch pipe. Why is it like that? Can I just buy all 2" pipes and trap to make a 2" drain. Or should I do the same thing with a 2" trap and adapts to 1.5 inch pipe for the drain opening? Am I explaining it clearly? I did not purposely underestimate diy plumbing but these little things have thrown me off quite a few times. Please help me out.


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## Mechelle

*different size*

I might not described the situation. I bought 1.5 inches parts and found out that the main pipe is 2" and the one that necks its head out the concrete is 1.5 inches. My question is do I need to go all 2", a combo or does it matter? Clear as mud?


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## mstplumber

Completely clear. You need to use all 2". The reason the old one was reduced to 1 1/2" is because it was roughed in for a tub, not a shower. The smallest pipe allowed by code under concrete is 2", but tubs have 1 1/2" drains, so the original plumber reduced the riser. Shower drains have 2" connections.


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## Mechelle

*Clear like sun shine*

:whistling2:

Now that is clear. 

I am on my way to build out the tile, base........... I am getting some messages but sorry that I have not been able to chat because this site requires a 20 post eligibility. I am on my way there, too.


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