# Not enough headroom for existing basement stairs



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Got some pictures.
Do the stairs run and rise meet code?


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Got some pictures.
> Do the stairs run and rise meet code?


I will try and get pictures soon. The basement currently has no lights in it so it might be tomorrow when I get home from work.

The current total run of the stairs is roughly 149.5" and the total rise is 112" from the basement concrete floor to the top of the stair landing (kitchen floor).


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Keep in mind if you are changing the Basement stairs. They are required to meet the current code enforced in your area.

As for the lights. You can setup a temp construction drop down there, until you get some fixtures installed.


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

gregzoll said:


> Keep in mind if you are changing the Basement stairs. They are required to meet the current code enforced in your area.
> 
> As for the lights. You can setup a temp construction drop down there, until you get some fixtures installed.


That's what I thought...my question is what if there is no way to get them to meet current code enforced in my area (which MD uses the standard IBC for majority of their building code)?

I'll have to get some of those construction lights this weekend so I can get some light down there.


----------



## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Sometimes it is possible to angle the joists at the top edge so you gain a little headroom over them being cut square.
or re-frame with the joist stoping at the edge and being framed it witha 2x6 on the flat or some such option. also depending what is above you can sometimes gain headroom because a closet is above or a cabinet of some sort.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

If there is a way. It can be done. There are some really good online stair design sites.

Get us the correct measurements. Is there any chance of jus relocating them?


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Geran Brown said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> What are the possible options for me to do to fix this issue?
> ...



What part needs replacing?

I am of the personal opinion that simply replacing worn or damaged treads or risers would not affect your 'grandfathered' status for clearance heights. Your local inspector if involved may disagree with my opinion but I've generally found them to be reasonable people.


----------



## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

You have several options that may or may not work. Make your run minimum code or deduct a rise. Around here minimum run is 9" and max rise is 8-1/4. Local code over rules ibc. So check the local code. Like stated above, sometimes you can move the header where the headroom is an issue, back to a better location. Make sure you are measuring the 80" from the correct point. It is not measured to the nearest step. It is a plumb measurement but not necessarily to a step. So make sure your reading the code right. You can also push the header at the top of the stairs back.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

The two numbers you give, run - 149.5" and rise - 112", doesn't add up...

Lets say your measurement of rise - 112", is correct..
If your stair riser is 7-1/2", you could try computing with 8" riser and see if this will give you the clearance needed.

Rise 112"
R-HT 8"
T-WD 10"
RSRS 14
TRDS 13
STRG 13-10 1/2"
INCL 38.66 *
RUN 130 in.

If not, you will have to do a landing and turn....


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree, check with local AHJ; http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/

Existing headroom; http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/

Gary


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

gregzoll said:


> If there is a way. It can be done. There are some really good online stair design sites.


I've looked at a lot of those sites and the I used was this one.



gregzoll said:


> Get us the correct measurements. Is there any chance of jus relocating them?


What measurements do you want exactly? I measured the total rise from the concrete floor to the top of the riser that meets the kitchen floor (measured 112") and the total run was measured from the base of the last step to there the rise was measured which equaled 149.5" +/- .5".



Colbyt said:


> What part needs replacing?
> 
> I am of the personal opinion that simply replacing worn or damaged treads or risers would not affect your 'grandfathered' status for clearance heights. Your local inspector if involved may disagree with my opinion but I've generally found them to be reasonable people.


The treads (11" treads) need replacing along with the risers (only 6" risers). The wife wants new iron railings as well which are integrated into the stringers of the stairs currently.



Millertyme said:


> You have several options that may or may not work. Make your run minimum code or deduct a rise. Around here minimum run is 9" and max rise is 8-1/4. Local code over rules ibc. So check the local code. Like stated above, sometimes you can move the header where the headroom is an issue, back to a better location. Make sure you are measuring the 80" from the correct point. It is not measured to the nearest step. It is a plumb measurement but not necessarily to a step. So make sure your reading the code right. You can also push the header at the top of the stairs back.


That's interesting and could possibly work...I'll have to consider this.



ron45 said:


> The two numbers you give, run - 149.5" and rise - 112", doesn't add up...
> 
> Lets say your measurement of rise - 112", is correct..
> If your stair riser is 7-1/2", you could try computing with 8" riser and see if this will give you the clearance needed.
> ...


I agree when I first took the measurements that something didn't seem right. I measured each riser and it is about 6" and each run is about 11". I can do some remeasuring if needed though.

I have attached some pictures as well.





The one just over 6' is measured from the headroom issues to the face of the run since the line of the headroom isn't exactly on the edge of a stair.


The one at 65" is to the plumb measurement of the nearest edge of a stair.


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> I agree, check with local AHJ; http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/
> 
> Existing headroom; http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/
> 
> Gary


Thank you so much for the links. I do appreciate all the help & knowledge you provide.


----------



## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

Looks like you will still need 14 rises but definitely can shorten up a bit on that run


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Yeah that head knocker is going to be hard. Who ever did our Basement stairs, must have gotten the 2 2x10's flipped around. Stepping down or up at the last step, is like going off of a cliff.

At the bottom, I also have a head knocker. But the worse of that, is that there is a Conduit 90 for the light for the stairway.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

The older homes are always a hard one, when it comes to fiddling with the stairs.


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

Millertyme said:


> Looks like you will still need 14 rises but definitely can shorten up a bit on that run


So based on this...it would be 14 risers at 8" and 13 run at 9"?



gregzoll said:


> Yeah that head knocker is going to be hard. Who ever did our Basement stairs, must have gotten the 2 2x10's flipped around. Stepping down or up at the last step, is like going off of a cliff.
> 
> At the bottom, I also have a head knocker. But the worse of that, is that there is a Conduit 90 for the light for the stairway.


Yeah I can't really change that "head knocker" either since is basically the floor joist for the kitchen and under the fridge.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Geran they make one for iOS & I do believe that there is one for Android in the Goggle Play store.

If my Grandfather was still alive, he would just look at it, measure in his mind, and then do a little scribbling on a piece of scabbed wood, and have the stairs perfect every time.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Even worse is that I always forget to duck when I go down, or going up. Same when I have to go over to some shelves where our plenum is for the furnace.

Do another upstairs shot, but this time stand back around the third post on the left.

Also depending on how tight they are on the rules. You may be able to get some wiggle room on the rise & run. Do they have any of their codes on the city website for local codes?


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

gregzoll said:


> Geran they make one for iOS & I do believe that there is one for Android in the Goggle Play store.
> 
> If my Grandfather was still alive, he would just look at it, measure in his mind, and then do a little scribbling on a piece of scabbed wood, and have the stairs perfect every time.


I'll look for the app. Those figures were from the link I had in my post above it based on what he said about the 14 rises.

Here is what I can find for the Maryland building codes currently:



> R31 1.5.3.1 Riser height. The maximum riser height shall be 81/4 inches (210 mm). The riser shall be measured vertically between
> leading edges of the adjacent treads. The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs may not exceed the smallest by more than ?
> inch (9.5 mm).
> 
> ...


So you want a shot from higher up on the stairs looking down into the basement?


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Just to see the doubled joists for that Head knocker wall, that is at the bottom of the stairs. Can give us a clearer picture of anything in the way on both sides.

At least with the apps. If you have one and take it to work to fiddle around with. You can play around with the stair design.


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

Are these good?


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Yep. I wonder if it ever had support at the corners, or someone took them out later. Does not show any doubled beams on those two sides.


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

I have no idea...it has been like this since I bought the house.

I did talk to the county about building codes though and I'm able to have runs at 9" and a rise no more than 8.25". Based on that, I'm able to almost shorten the stairs by about 20" which would clear the headroom issue completely if I measured it correctly lol


----------



## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

with the fridge above it is hard to modify the top and gain headroom.
Steep stairs are not fun, but if no choice to have headroom then steep stairs it has to be.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

mae-ling said:


> with the fridge above it is hard to modify the top and gain headroom.
> Steep stairs are not fun, but if no choice to have headroom then steep stairs it has to be.


Tell me about it. The first step down on ours is like stepping off of a cliff. Even the dogs will not go downstairs, because of how screwed up they are. I think that as long as he does not tighten them up too much, but just towards the last third, they may be able to get enough.

If they use the software and play with the numbers, it may help out. The only way of seeing it in real life, is to grab some tread brackets and a couple of 2x6's, tie them from spreading with some 2x4's on the back. Then they could play around with a couple of designs, to see how the distance from the tread where the head knocker is, to the hazard.


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

I gave you numbers in post #10.?


----------



## Geran Brown (May 23, 2013)

ron45 said:


> I gave you numbers in post #10.?


I saw that...I didn't really know what the abbreviations meant and I felt stupid to ask.

I used an online tool and got the numbers in post #17.

This was based off using 8" risers (14 needed) and 9" runs (13 needed)


----------

