# Concrete Driveway Spalling/Scaling Less than 2 yrs old



## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

Hi All....Much like another thread here going on right now, I am having issues with my concrete driveway. The driveway was installed in mid July of 2017 in a new construction build in a development (Just south of Cleveland Ohio). We had it sealed with a penetrating "siloxane" sealer in the last week of September of 2017 (so around 2 months after driveway pour). 

During it's first winter, while the house across the street from us was being built, a truck carrying all of the lumber for that house decided it would be a good idea to come up into our driveway. Everything seemed fine, no cracks or anything.

Fast forward to this winter. We finally had a large snowfall that stayed for a few weeks, and when all the snow and ice melted, we were left with what you see in the pictures!

I contacted the people that did the sealing, and they told me, "our sealer should prevent against salt damage...and frankly, even if you didn't have it sealed, it's less than 2 years old, and shouldn't be doing that anyway! It sounds like you had a bad pour".

I contacted our builder, and they said, yeah, we'll come out and look at it, but we don't really have any warranties on the driveways for salt damage.

Who should I pick my fight with? The company that did the sealing, or the builder? Either way, I'm going to try my hardest to get one of the companies to fix my driveway! Aside from ALL of the other problems I've had with this NEW house, now I'm dealing with a driveway that's falling apart too! Old house I lived in for nearly 10 years didn't have these problems, and I didn't ever seal that driveway!

edit: I'm not seeing the images show up...so here's links to them!
https://imgur.com/a/3w01c0b
https://imgur.com/a/beekU1C


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Is the spawling located just at the end of the parkway apron, or the entire drive? Do you put salt down or are you referring to from the city trucks for the street? Can't tell, is that a broom finish?

I doubt after 1.5 years it'll be replaced on someone else's dime.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> Is the spawling located just at the end of the parkway apron, or the entire drive? Do you put salt down or are you referring to from the city trucks for the street? Can't tell, is that a broom finish?
> 
> I doubt after 1.5 years it'll be replaced on someone else's dime.


It is worse down by the apron, right next to the street. Yes, it is a broom finish. We DO NOT put salt down, but the city trucks do. There is small bits of that happening further up the drive...I'm guessing from where snow melted from the tires that had salt on them.

Walking down the street about 10 houses in each direction on each side of the street, I DO NOT see this same type of damage. All houses in this part were built within 6-8 months of our house being finished. My direct neighbors (who did not get their driveway sealed) do not have this type of damage. (I know they had a different contractor, because I spoke with them, and they said that they were only there because the developer had a backlog of driveways that needed done). 

Unfortunately, since this is a large builder, they used many different concrete companies. They supplied me with a list of every other contractor that did work on the house...EXCEPT the concrete!


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

That seems well within the "splash zone" for salt distributed by municipal trucks, especially when you consider that salted snow may be ploughed onto the right of way, where the apron is.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

huesmann said:


> That seems well within the "splash zone" for salt distributed by municipal trucks, especially when you consider that salted snow may be ploughed onto the right of way, where the apron is.


Yes, I have no doubt that salt helped with the damage. I DID have a penetrating sealer applied, and like I said...concrete is only 1.5yrs old. I see NO other damage going down the street on any other driveways. Same salt would be there, would it not? So why is there no damage elsewhere?

I'm wondering if it is a combination of crappy concrete and the fact that a damn SEMI loaded with god knows how many tons of lumber decided to use my driveway when he got stuck in the mud! (Builders told me not to let the moving truck in the driveway, cuz it wasn't rated for that type of weight!)


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Coulda just been a schitty job by the installer. Maybe they added too much water to make it more workable in that area?


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

I’d put money on poor placement methods (even though I can’t see the pictures). 

Contractors who work exclusively for large developers are on strict schedules. This causes them to pour when conditions are less than ideal: I’ve poured when it was hailing, pouring down rain, even snowing. But their schedule says they pour on Thursday, and darn it, they pour on Thursday no matter what. 

They’ll also wet it up so much and use a lot of calcium to accelerate it, so they can pour more in one day. Over watering will definitely cause shrinkage and spalling as the hydration process occurs.

Your builder is the one you need to talk to.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

The fact that the truck backed up on your driveway would have no effect on the kind of damage your seeing. That is strictly caused by a poor mix of concrete and poor finishing. It looks like from the pictures that your Street itself is concrete? If that's the case do you see any of this type of damage on the street?

One thing I noticed that shows how much your developer cut corners it's the fact that they just cut the curb instead of putting a rolled curb into your driveway which is normal procedure. The problem at least in my opinion it's definitely something that the company that did the concrete work is responsible for. If anything this sealer helped but obviously it didn't help much.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

Mort said:


> They’ll also wet it up so much and use a lot of calcium to accelerate it, so they can pour more in one day. Over watering will definitely cause shrinkage and spalling as the hydration process occurs.


I was able to find a few pictures from just after the concrete was poured...unfortunately it's after they had already cut the joints into it...but I do notice in the apron (where they had not had a saw) there is some white looking streaks that look slightly different than the dust from the sawing. (i circled it in red).







Might this be the calcium you are speaking of? Or is that something that they ADD to the mixture before it is poured?

Also, here's the pic that didn't show up at the top.










Msradell said:


> It looks like from the pictures that your Street itself is concrete? If that's the case do you see any of this type of damage on the street?


Correct, the street is Concrete, and no, I do not see this type of damage on the street itself.



Msradell said:


> One thing I noticed that shows how much your developer cut corners it's the fact that they just cut the curb instead of putting a rolled curb into your driveway which is normal procedure. The problem at least in my opinion it's definitely something that the company that did the concrete work is responsible for. If anything this sealer helped but obviously it didn't help much.


 Yep, they just brought a saw in and cut the curb out! That's how the entire development was done!


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## DZthompsen (Feb 7, 2019)

Hello there. Sorry to read about your driveway. Salt does not actually damage concrete. Salt melting the ice can cause scaling. Salt does not chemically react with hardened concrete. Salt does however lower the freezing point of water, attract moisture, and increase pressure of frozen water. When the salt lands on the ice, the ice starts to melt and turns into water. Concrete is extremely porous. The water from the melted ice will go into those pores. Eventually, that water will freeze again and expand within those pores, causing the concrete to scale. Non-salt De-icers have the same effect. And there is even a finish texture called “Rock Salt Finish”. You throw softener salt into the concrete, then mag or bull float in down, and then pressure wash the salt out the next day. Just wanted to clear that up. Salt doesn’t hurt concrete. 
Back to your scaling issue. 
Reasons this happened: 
1) Use of a Fresno or a steel trowel on air entrained (exterior) concrete. That traps in moisture.

2) To much water added to the concrete to create a higher slump then ordered. Adding lots of water to concrete after it leaves the plant weakens it a lot. An 8 inch slump batches at the plant is much stronger than an 8 inch slump you made by adding a lot of water to a 5 inch slump at the job site. (This happens to much)

3) To much water added to the top surface of the concrete after application. If concrete is getting hard before the finishing process is over, guys will spray water on the concrete to work up cream. Almost creates a separate top layer. Surface retardant should be used instead of a water. Give concrete new life while keeping its strength

4) Over Floating and Over Working the concrete. I’ve seen concrete scale because somebody bullfloated a slab three times before the broom finish. This gave it a glossy look that resembled what Fresno does and may have had the same effect. Exterior concrete needs to “breathe”. 

I’m GUESSING that your problem was caused either by the freeze-thaw cycle of the salt on ice and the truck was enough to get it loose OR option #3 that I listed. Option 3 is the most common on job site. OR a combination of both. 

I got 14 years experience as a concrete finisher so I hope this helps and I’m here for questions.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Option 3 is my guess in a big development. A certain contractor always tells me “I want a six inch slump!” That’s fine, it was ordered at a 5 so that’s within the margin of error. Problem is, what he thinks is a 6 is actually a 9-10 or more. So I’m in it 50-60 gallons of water, which is too much. 

It almost looks like they used calcium over rebar in that pic, which is a no-no. Calcium corrodes the steel, rendering it useless. And I’ve even seen rust stains leeching out of slabs.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

DZthompsen said:


> Salt doesn’t hurt concrete.


For the top layer, the poor workmanship allows the spalling as DZ covered, but I wanted to clarify one thing - any salt exacerbates the H2O freeze/thaw deterioration, but certain salts can also be the actual culprit. Cities use deicing salt high in calcium chloride because it's so effective, but it can remain in the voids after the sitting water evaporates. When this combines with the calcium in the concrete, it forms a new molecule which then expands. That's why you see a whole market of home deicers that do not have the same content of calcium chloride. 

If your city has not decided to go alternative with beet or sand mixtures, your concrete is at the mercy of the temps, a good rain, a good sealer (which isn't bulletproof), and workmanship. For a small driveway, no contractor is going to go high tech with fly ash mixtures and/or low slump/higher psi.

Side note if you have exterior sawcut joints I always recommend putting some self-leveling polyurethane sealant in them.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

UPDATE:

I finally got the Builder's Warranty people to come out, and they said, "yep, that's salt damage, we don't really have any warranty on our driveways because that's expected to happen at sometime"

Um...No, I don't think that it should!

I asked if I could get the name of the sub that did the work, and he said that I could not have that information, and that if I wanted to go higher up the chain, I'd have to work with Legal, and not the warranty department.

So...I guess that's my next step! 

<rant>
We thought that moving into a New house would be nice, because we wouldn't have to worry about all the maintenance issues that we had with our older (50+yr old) house. Turns out we were wrong! Improperly installed bath tubs, non-level basement concrete under flooring, broken "cultured marble" sinks, leaking basement windows, cracks on walls that cause doors to not open/close, unsightly amounts of nail pops and other cracks, missing insulation, leaking drainage pipes...I've had more work done on this new house than i had nearly the entirety of living at my old house for 10 years! And now this driveway! 
</rant>


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Unfortunately it’s the exact opposite. There is no way to get quality workmanship when you throw up 300 houses in one neighborhood in a year and a half. I’m the very last guy to suggest this because my opinion of lawyers is that they’re lower than whale s***, but I think you should get one involved here. If enough people do that maybe these builders would examine their practices.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Msradell said:


> One thing I noticed that shows how much your developer cut corners it's the fact that they just cut the curb instead of putting a rolled curb into your driveway which is normal procedure.


It's actually not uncommon here where I'm at to see curb cuts vs. tear-out and replacement of curbs. Actually, out of the dozen or so municipalities we do right-of-way work in, only one makes you tear-out the curb and repour vs. cutting. I was apprehensive about the cross section of the cut deteriorating years ago, but looking back now, they actually wear pretty well.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is no separate curb and gutter in the OP's scenario, it's slip formed with the street, making the curb opening installation even more cumbersome.

Other than that, I tend to agree as to why that area of the drive is delaminating.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

jomama45 said:


> It's actually not uncommon here where I'm at to see curb cuts vs. tear-out and replacement of curbs. Actually, out of the dozen or so municipalities we do right-of-way work in, only one makes you tear-out the curb and repour vs. cutting. I was apprehensive about the cross section of the cut deteriorating years ago, but looking back now, they actually wear pretty well.


Just goes to show how different practices are from area to area. In the Louisville area where I live now and in upstate SC where I live previously you had to put in a rolled curb for every driveway. It was part of the requirements and was noted on any permit you pulled for driveway work.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

Update....I went higher up the chain...and they sent the concrete supplier out to my house. They will be pulling a few core samples in a few months and sending them off for testing! So, hopefully that will tell is what is at fault, and I can get my driveway fixed!!!


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Just don't get your hopes up too high, and do hope the installer is still in business, as it's more than likely he's the guy it will all boil down to.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

I don't think the contractor will be out of business...according to the supplier, the builder uses them quite frequently.

As a side note, the guy from concrete supplier basically said the problem could be what was already said in this thread, and said that this happens every once in a while, and that in the past either they or the contractor will fix it.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

You can't ask for better news than that, good for you on going up the chain.


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## Larryh86GT (Feb 2, 2013)

pezman726 said:


> I don't think the contractor will be out of business...according to the supplier, the builder uses them quite frequently.
> 
> As a side note, the guy from concrete supplier basically said the problem could be what was already said in this thread, and said that this happens every once in a while, and that in the past either they or the contractor will fix it.


I am curious how it is fixed? Cut the damaged section out and re-pour?


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

Larryh86GT said:


> I am curious how it is fixed? Cut the damaged section out and re-pour?


Well, since the same thing is also happening further up in my driveway, though not to the extent as it is on the apron...I'm guessing a full driveway tear out is in my future.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Doubt it. They'll probably sawcut any section that shows spalling (probably from the asphalt to partway up your driveway), demo and remove the concrete, put in some cheap fiber expansion joint board at the sawcut, re-pour, and re-float.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

huesmann said:


> Doubt it. They'll probably sawcut any section that shows spalling (probably from the asphalt to partway up your driveway), demo and remove the concrete, put in some cheap fiber expansion joint board at the sawcut, re-pour, and re-float.


You think they'd do that even if the core samples show that the concrete is garbage? That damage is all over the driveway in small patches here and there...I guess time will tell what is going to happen.

When the guy was here, I also noticed one spot on my front porch!!! We only go in and out through the garage, so traffic up there is minimal. I just fear what my whole driveway will look like in another 2 years if it's already starting to go down hill now!!


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Hmm, if it's that extensive, then maybe it's a total redo.


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## pezman726 (Apr 12, 2017)

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!!!

<TLDR> *Improper Curing, will replace Apron but NOT rest of Driveway.* </TLDR>

First off, they only decided to take 1 sample instead of the originally stated 2...the supplier said they only needed 1 sample, so they only took 1 core.

According to the report, relayed to me by the home builder (which I'm currently trying to get my hands on), the sample showed that it was* not properly cured *(though couldn't go into more details).

They also stated that there wasn't any sealant present. I had a "siloxane" penetrating sealant put down on my driveway by a local company. Immediately after they did it, I could see water beading up and rolling off...but that behavior stopped probably a few months after the sealing was done....so maybe they didn't put the sealant down that they were supposed to?

So, now here we are. The builder said they are going to *REPLACE THE APRON*. I said, "great, what about the rest of the driveway that is also doing the same exact thing" And their reply was "Nope, just the apron." with no other explanation why, considering they have seen the rest of the driveway. Are you kidding me!!!

Riding my bike down the street the other day, I came across a group of about 4 more houses done around the same time as mine that have this exact same thing going on. If I go into the older section of the development, there are more houses of various ages that this is happening to as well. None of the houses are older than 5 yrs old. On the street that I used to live on where the houses were all built in the 60's, and the driveways were clearly maybe replaced once in their life in maybe the 80's or 90's, i didn't see any of the same issues!

Very frustrating!


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Sounds to me more like improper finishing, of course there are other causes as to where the blame can be layed, but i doubt improper curing in the apron only.


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