# Installing header for kitchen pass through



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

So I have a approx. 19 1/2 ft wall dividing my living room and kitchen. One end has a 6ft opening already. This is a load bearing wall with a basement below but no second floor. I would like to cut a hole to make a kitchen pass through and would like this hole to be approx. 9-10 ft long . So in the end the wall would look like this: 6 ft opening- then a post at the end of new pass through-then 9-10ft opening- then approx 3ft wall. Now I know I need to put up temp walls on both sides but I have found conflicting answers on what size header i would need would a two 2x10 sadwiching a 1/2 plywood be enough or need bigger? maybe 2x12? Also will two 2x4 on each end be ok for jack studs?

one last question is should I just scratch that idea and go with an overhead header in the attic ? Is this a much easier process? as I understand it I will need an approx 12ft header and all I do is attach them to the ceiling joist with ceiling hangers above the existing wall. Then I can just cut out the hole? Thanks for all the help in advance .sorry its so long


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I Installed a very similar header in my kitchen, the span was approximately 11 feet. I used a steel beam for the header, not as deep as would have been required if I used wood. I used triple 2x4's on either end, overkill but I did not mind the cost of two extra 2x4's.

Sizing of the beam must be done by a registered engineer in most states, I would not offer, not do I recommend that you accept, advice on sizing a structural element such as the header you describe, over the Internet. You should check with your local code official about allowable types of headers, in some areas you may be restricted as to the type of header you can use.

As for hanging the header off of rafters (you used the term joist, I am not sure you have joists up there), you would have a similar issue of needing professional structural advice. You are going to be putting a relatively large load on the hangers, and it may not be reasonable to attach it to the rafters.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yup, you can't guess at this - beam needed must be sized for each installation

I opened up ~12' 6", (3) 2x4's at each end for support
My beams were sized at 14" LVL's


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

Is this under a trussed roof? What makes you think its a "load bearing wall"?


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

cause it is directly into the middle of the house and aligned with the roof peak. perpendicular with the roof trusses, and directly underneath the wall in the basement are 3 or 4 support beams . thanks for all the answers so far. 

can anyone give me a ballpark figure of what im looking at for a lvl beam or steel i beam, and this would be a ballpark figure of course


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ball park figure for the 14" LVL was under $7 a foot as I recall
So 10', 2 beams required = $140, or they might go with (3) 12" LVL's - slightly more...or (2) 12" LVL's

My lumber company sized the beams for free for me & had an engineer review the sizing & stamp the paperwork


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

> cause it is directly into the middle of the house and aligned with the roof peak. perpendicular with the roof trusses, and directly underneath the wall in the basement are 3 or 4 support beams .


dear sir...if the roof is trusses spanning the entire width of the house..that wall probably is NOT load bearing..perpendicular to the trusses does NOT mean it is load bearing. The fact that walls in the basement bearing the weight of the floor is irrelevent to the question.


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

hmmm you do bring up a good point, I thank you. Does anyone else agree? Just inquiring with others , but I will eventually be calling a stuctural eng. Thanks again


----------



## Mop in Hand (Feb 5, 2009)

Is there a header over the exsisting 6' opening?


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

Go to the attic space, locate the subject wall. If the trusses span the 40' width of the house they probably arent even bearing on the top plate and there might even be a space under the bottom cord of the truss at the wall plate. Typicall trusses are not supposed to bear on interior walls at all and arent fastened to the top plates.If they are touching the top plate that's ok..that still doesnt mean they are load bearing. Also you will see that blocks or clips are fastened to the top plates that allow the truss to move up and down with expansion. If the roof structure is trusses you'll notice metal plates at all the connections of the truss parts. SOMETIMES trusses are engineered to bear on interior walls but not often. 
Conversely..if your roof structure is stick framed and not trusses, the wall is most likely load bearing. 
I don't know if you know the difference between stick framing and trusses so don't be offended by the over-explaining.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

bpchevyguy said:


> hmmm you do bring up a good point, I thank you. Does anyone else agree? Just inquiring with others , but I will eventually be calling a stuctural eng. Thanks again


Are they trusses? or stick framed?
Without pics or actually seeing how things are put together everything is just a guess

Floor load alone could mean you need a beam

A bathtub on that wall could make it load bearing
I know one bathroom my old man did there was so much tile he had to add extra support


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

huh???? its a wall separating his kitchen from his living room with the roof above.

oh you meant in the basement...never mind


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Take a picture over the wall in the* attic*, and one below the wall in the *basement*. 

Be safe, Gary


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

Sorry it took so long had to work , but I have to exuse myself cause i was mistaken I do not have trusses.(just recently bought the house) but here are the pictures and still thinking its load bearing.

The first three pics are of the attic

the second pic are supports sitting right on top of the wall there is one more support across about 10 ft away 

the third pic just shows that the joist are split right above the wall all the way down 

the forth pic is from the basement and shows that all the joist underneath the wall are doubled up


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

heres some more of the attic and basement


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

Yes it would be a load bearing wall.


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Need one more pic of the ridge support with the diagonal 2x4 on the wall in question. Thanks. 
Be safe, Gary


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

Thank your this is what i thought. Thanks for everyones help now just to figure out if a 2x10 header will be enough.


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

you need to know what the design requirements for your local area are. 100# snow load? where are you?


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

yeah heavy snow load. im in western massachusetts


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

2x4 wall?


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

you got it


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

my supplier said 3 1/2 x 12 would handle the load with 50L/10D load spec. 3" bearing both sides. You could call you local supplier to verify and price a 3.5x12 BC glulam


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

thank you so much for your help


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

Is there anything else I could use other than a glulam to make this shorter than the 12"? just cause I have to have the bar height at 48"cause I have a stove on the other side. So it really only leave me with a 2ft 2 inch opening. not a big issue but would like to maximize the opening


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Your best bet is to go thru an architect/engineer & have them design support from above
For 26" I wouldn't even open it up


----------



## mics_54 (Sep 7, 2009)

It's obviouly more/expense but you could put the beam in the ceiling rather than benieth it, hang the joists with hangers and your ridge supports on top of the beam.


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

You don't need a glu-lam. You are *only carrying ceiling *joists. I need a picture of the supports in the attic to see if they are bearing or just put in to hold the ridge board during construction. The snow load does not figure in here, unless you have a broken rafter or two - hence the support picture. To put a beam in the attic would not be difficult, at least from here. What is your rafter span- or- *how wide is the house? * 28 or 30"? Is the wall centered in that width?
Be safe, Gary


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

so the width of the house is 24 ft and the wall is centered in the house. (maybe a few inches off approx. 3") . here are the pics hopefully i got what you asked for. Didnt see any broken rafters either. the attic is about 40 ft long also if that factors into anything. also none of the supports are put in with any sort of brackets if that matters


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

There are also cross pieces every three rafters


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

A picture of the roof from outside might help too


----------



## bpchevyguy (Jul 1, 2008)

ill have to get that tomm since its already dark but will do


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Replace the diagonal brace and it's support if you need to move it from over the wall. It is helping somewhat to keep the gable from racking (along with the roof sheathing diaphragm). The wall/beam will be supporting the ceiling joists only. 
If the beam span is *10'*, the load is 1/2 of the c.j.'s span 24 /2 = *12'* x c.j. load of 5# dead load, 15# live load =* 20#* total load 
Even figuring 5/8" drywall at *2.8#* sq.ft., dense fill loose cellulose insulation 12" high- R-42 at *4.6#*, d/f ceiling joist 24"o.c. at *1.1#* sq.ft., texture and light fixtures at *1.5#* = *10#* but I'm using 20#.


10 x 12 x 20 = *2400#* total load. 3x10 (*2-2x10's*) are rated to support* 2733#*, perfect for your application. I would temporarily support the walls on both sides, cut the ceiling joists out for a double (2) 2x10 gang nailed together 16" o.c. two rows with 16d nails, 2" away from the top and bottom of the boards. Install correct sized hangers under the ceiling joists, using required length nails for the application. (*special shear* hangers) These are critical to keep the walls from spreading due to the weight on the roof assembly. Run the built-up beam 18" long on each end over the 10' opening with 3 studs under each end, closest to the opening. Before installing them, put blocks, 2x4's on end in the joist space below for positive bearing under the three trimmer studs to the beam below.. Above the beam, on it’s top edge to top of ceiling joist, nail a couple of diagonal braces (24" long) to prevent rotation, perpendicular to the beam, on each end. Strap the beam to the wall at each end (vertically) with a 24" 1-1/4"wide steel strap, on both sides for earthquake. 
Run this by your* local Building Department* for their approval. They definitely want to keep you safe, as do I. 

*Any advice given here should be verified by a Licensed Structural Engineer.*
Be safe, Gary


----------

