# Pros Cons All Electric Home???



## Property Virgin (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi All!

Can anyone please help us understand if it is a huge mistake to purchase a home with an all electric heat/ac furnance in PA? 

Are we going to bleed out money during the cold winter months with electric heat vs gas?

We've tried finding some info on the internet. Not a lot out there under this subject.

Tx!
PV


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Property Virgin said:


> Are we going to bleed out money during the cold winter months with electric heat vs gas?


From 
http://www.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_SPA_a.htm
For 2009, for PA, assuming no arith. mistakes, 
NG costs $1.49 per therm of energy.
Elec. costs $4.10 per therm of energy but with heat pump heat the elec. might be 1/3 of this value, per therm. The resi. elec. cost was elsewhere on this site and might be off somewhat.

1 therm = 29.3 kwh.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Depends, is the house insulated good, are the windows tight, is the house wrapped, are the doors tight, drafts?.

My house is total electric I love it my electric bills are lower than anybody I know for the last 20 years.. people have electric, gas/oil combos that cost a fortune in maintenance etc.

My baseboards are all controlled by thermostats in every room.

I have all the appliances Central air etc.

The electric company gives a discount to total electric homeowners.

I have been in the HVAC business for over 40 years and never thought I would say good things about total electric but it rocks. No Maintenance.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

I lived in a 1600 sq ft middle townhouse (rowhouse) that had a electric heat pump. Sold that and bought a 2400 sq ft single detached house that had a dual-zone heat pump setup, along with electric 'strip' baseboard heaters.

The electric bill was reasonable in both, considering they were 100% electric (oven, water, dryer, heat, ac) and that the electric company gives a very steep discount once you go over a certain threshold of electric consumption. I never bothered working out the threshold, but put it this way:

in the hottest and coldest months in the 1600 sq ft, single heat pump all electric townhouse, my electric bill was $250. My brother, who has a small rowhouse in Philly, was paying $200 a month for his electric bill alone, not to mention his gas bill.

In the larger 2400sq ft dual-zone heat pump all electric house it was $400 in the worst months. But in spring/fall, it was just under $200. It seemed it was never in the middle - it was either ~$400 or ~$200. No in between. Not sure why.

In my current house, which is natural gas for heat, my combined PECO (local utility) electric and gas bill was $440. About $25 of that was for gas and the rest was for the central air, which is electric of course. My central air is long in the tooth and is pulling about 16 - 17 amps now, so it's sucking more electric than a newer one would. Of course, last month was the hottest month on record for Eastern PA.

Your relatives/friends and the know-it-alls on the internet will all tell you how an all electric house will bleed you dry due to high electric bills. They don't know what they're talking about. 

That said...I am *very* happy to live in a natural gas house for heating now. Because I hated the heat pumps in both the townhouse and the single (in both houses they were newer Trane 12 and 13 SEER heat pumps). It's a very 'cold' heat produced by the heat pump and when it drops to 10 degrees or below they aren't worth a damn. And the air conditioning wasn't all that much better in my particular case. A lot of that depends on duct locations though. In the last house with the dual-zone heat pumps, the house was originally built in 1970 as a 'green' house - all electric, with electric baseboard. No heat pumps. A prior owner had the heat pumps installed because the electric strip heaters were either killing him via his electric bill, plus he wanted central air and a heat pump provides both. Problem was, retrofitting ductwork was a problem. Example: the frickin supply to the master bedroom was RIGHT OVER TOP OF THE ONLY PLACE TO FIT A KING BED. We hated that house and put it up for sale not 7 months after buying it...

The heat and air conditioning in my present house is wonderful in terms of comfort. I'm happy to pay a little extra if that's how it works out. Not to mention that heat pumps are friggin noisy - the air being pushed through the ducts is always too damn loud.

My advice is this: natural gas is best, oil is second, heat pump third, and electric baseboard dead last (do they even make houses with just that anymore?). That said, if you absolutely love everythign else about the house then you can always pay a competent HVAC company (good luck finding one) to enhance/replace as needed. That said...I would definitely think twice before buying a house with all electric heat due to past experiences. Another thing - cooking on an electric stove sucks compared to a gas stove. Only a buffoon would disagree with that. But again...it depends on your tastes.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

One thing I like about gas, power goes out the stove top still works
Gas fired water heater works
Gas fired furnace you only need emergency power for the blower

Same with oil, a generator will provide enough power to run the circ pump
All electric in the event of power failure everything is out
That said I only have oil heat, electric everything else
Last house was gas for everything, in wall electric AC


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

An electric furnace (not including a heat pump) uses about the same amount of electricity as baseboards.

At outdoor temperatures below a certain threshold, a heat pump switches over to heating elements similar to an electric furnace or baseboards.

If your oil or gas heated home is insulated as well as they suggest for electric heat, your heating bill will be even lower.


mark2741 said:


> I
> Your relatives/friends and the know-it-alls on the internet will all tell you how an all electric house will bleed you dry due to high electric bills. They don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> That said...I am *very* happy to live in a natural gas house for heating now. Because I hated the heat pumps in both the townhouse and the single (in both houses they were newer Trane 12 and 13 SEER heat pumps). It's a very 'cold' (lukewarm?) heat produced by the heat pump and when it drops to 10 degrees or below they aren't worth a damn. ... A prior owner had the heat pumps installed because the electric strip heaters were either killing him via his electric bill, ...
> ...


Aren't you agreeing with the know-it-alls?


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> Aren't you agreeing with the know-it-alls?


No, because I was referring to the electric bill. Electric heat works fine enough. And the bill is substantially lower than people expect it to be. But the real feel of the heat is just nowhere near as comfortable as gas or oil heat.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

The best source of your infomation will useally POCO due they keep record of what prevouis owner bill was so that way you will able gauge how much you will face the bill.

Second thing is make sure all the window and doors seal are good shape.

If you have baseboard heater make sure nothing is restricting the flow above the baseboard heaters ( that one of few common complaints I have see )

Whole house electrique furance basically the same as baseboard heater but will move air a bit the main thing is keep the air filter clean all the time.

Typically whole house electrique furance will run anywhere from 5KW to much as 25 KW depending on the heating element grids kick in.

I have oil heat in my house and it is not too bad a bill for me.
{ I have to stay with oil due I have diesel truck so i use the same fuel for it.}

Merci.
Marc


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## williswires (Jul 21, 2008)

I bought a total electric bi-level house in NEPA after i checked w/ the gas company to make sure gas was available.

2 yrs later I installed a gas fireplace. Gas company ran the service line for free as long as the unit was rated for 50% of estimated heating requirements.

Power failure? fireplace still runs - important for the winter electric outages...


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## SleepyDog (Jun 20, 2010)

I liive in NE PA. Be aware electric rates went up 30 % last jan due to deregulation. My bill went from monthabout 150 to 200 per month. I have oil heat and hot water, all else is electric. In rural parts of PA coal stoves are very common. I use about $900 worth of coal a year and rarly use oil heat. New stoves take the coal in back and empty ashes in front.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

mark2741 said:


> But the real feel of the heat is just nowhere near as comfortable as gas or oil heat.


Is the difference in feel much too difficult to describe using words, or is the difference in electric versus gas heat merely the room temperature?

Electric baseboard and FHW and steam should have the same feel. Electric furnace, heat pump, and FHA (ducted) gas/oil should have the same feel.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> Is the difference in feel much too difficult to describe using words, or is the difference in electric versus gas heat merely the room temperature?
> 
> Electric baseboard and FHW should have the same feel. Electric furnace, heat pump, and FHA (ducted) gas/oil should have the same feel.


Electric heat pumps produce a heat that is much colder coming from the supply than is produced by a gas or oil furnace supplying heat to the same ductwork/supply. 

The resulting 'end' temperature in the room (i.e, if supplies were close to the edge of the walls and you took temp measurement in the middle of the room) should be the same no matter what the heat source after enough time is given. But while that heat pump is supplying hot air it will noticeably not feel like same heat people are used to coming from natural gas/oil furnaces. Or electric strip heating, for that matter. This is a common gripe of heat pump owners:

http://www.climatemakers.com/common_hvac_probs/pump_cold.htm


Having owned 2 homes with heat pumps, my limited experience has been that heat pumps are rarely sized correctly (all of hvac installers in my major metropolitan suburban area (I tried all the 'reputable' ones in the area for estimates) will simply replace the same tonnage unit with an equivalent and not bother doing the calculations to ensure the ductwork is appropriate and the heat pump is sized correctly). Even if sized and working optimally, the fact is heat pumps blow colder air out of the supplies than other types of heating.

It's not as big of a problem with air conditioning, from my experience.


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## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

Property Virgin said:


> Hi All!
> 
> Can anyone please help us understand if it is a huge mistake to purchase a home with an all electric heat/ac furnance in PA?
> 
> ...


 
It really, really depends on HOW that electricity is being turned into heat.

If the heat is purely resistive (like baseboard heaters) Then YES, your electric bill is going to be $$$ in the winter. 

If the heat is from a heatpump, then your electric bill in the winter is going to be between $ and $$$ in the winter, depending on temperature. Once the temperature drops below about 20degF, your heat pump can't work anymore and you switch to resistive backup heat, which as we already said is $$$.

If the heat is geothermal,(and designed/installed correctly) then your bill will be $. (unless you have a really, really cold winter. then it will be $$) 

So, you NEED to find out exactly the make and model and age of the equipment that will be in your house. What you're looking for is the SEER rating of the equipment. You'll also NEED to know the cost of electricitiy and gas PER THERM in your area in order to make a comparison.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

moondawg makes some great points. One other thing to consider is the replacement cost of the heat pump. Keep that in mind when negotiating. Heat pumps rarely last 20+ years. In fact, they often fail and should be replaced in the 12 to 15 year timeframe. I got lucky with a Carrier that last 18 years. Some of neighbors that all had the same units (all installed at same time as part of construction of the development) would brag that they were able to keep their heat pumps going for 22 years, but the fact was they all had to run window fans to keep their bedrooms cool at night!

For a new Trane 13xli heat pump (including all new lines, all new inside/outside units) installed to heat/cool a 1660 sq ft middle townhouse in 2004 it cost me $4400. That's in suburban Philadelphia. The most reputable place wanted $5500, the cheapest estimate was for a Goodman unit at $3500. One clown gave me an estimate of $3000, and I found out the reason it was so cheap was cus he was gonna re-use the existing lines, which is a no-no. Nowadays it's probably over $5k and that's for a small townhouse. A gas furnace and central air replacement isn't that expensive and should last twice as long. And 'feel' better while it's running : )

Not to mention they seem to break down and require repairs much more often than furnaces do. I've had gas furnaces last 30 years +. No heat pump is ever gonna last 30 years.

If you can afford a house with a geothermal heat pump (they are so expensive to install that, in the eastern PA area they aren't very common in non-new construction and even then only in very pricey new construction, then ignore my advice - you can afford to pay an hvac tech to do whatever needed to make you nice and toasty! : )


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## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

mark2741 said:


> If you can afford a house with a geothermal heat pump (they are so expensive to install that, in the eastern PA area they aren't very common in non-new construction and even then only in very pricey new construction, then ignore my advice - you can afford to pay an hvac tech to do whatever needed to make you nice and toasty! : )


It's not unusual for geothermal heatpumps to last 20 years. My grandpa's WaterFurnace unit was installed in 1991 (I got the day off school to watch the install) and is still pumping along quite nicely.) 

The initial cost is high. For some reason it's alot higher out east than it is here. (Indiana) I paid about $17k ($15k after 2008 tax credit) for a 4 ton system installed, with ductwork and zone controller. Heatpump was going to run me about $9k installed. Payback will be fairly short.... around 7 years.

Current federal tax credits for geothermal are 30% of total installed cost. That's knocking off quite a bit but the price is still a premium over a normal heat pump. 

Obviously, I'm a fan of the technology. I just wish it was affordable for more people. It's a great way to reduce consumption.


Sorry for the tangent. back to the thread!


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

moondawg said:


> Obviously, I'm a fan of the technology. I just wish it was affordable for more people. It's a great way to reduce consumption.


I remember reading about them when I was in the market to replace a broken air-source heat pump. They make a lot of sense and from everything I had read and heard, work much better than the air-sourced heat pumps. Just too expensive : (


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Like I said in #3 My house is warm and toasty and cheap total electric.

1 Bill electric that's all no maintenance baseboard electric with thermostats in every room, I can control which rooms are on or off.

Other people I know have an electric bill plus oil or gas bill which triples mine most of the year.

And they have that stinky oil and gas, heat pumps which sometimes are maintenance nightmares.

If a thermostat or baseboard breaks I just go to the big box store and pick up one like and kind and have heat in an hour. Note. 20 years none broke.

Of course my house was built with electric heat design. 2x6 exterior walls, r 38 in attic and it's a small house so that has a lot to do with it.


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## mark2741 (Aug 17, 2009)

COLDIRON said:


> Of course my house was built with electric heat design. 2x6 exterior walls, r 38 in attic and it's a small house so that has a lot to do with it.


What state/area do you live? That probably has the biggest impact. I doubt you're in a northern climate. Or in a very rural area. In the Philadelphia area your electric bill would be pretty high, though of course that's relative to the size of your home.

The house I just sold earlier this year was built in 1970 as one of the first 'green' houses in my area. It was part of a very large development. All electric. It was about 2500 sq ft. By the time I bought it the previous owner had a dual-zone heat pump system installed. It sucked, because they had to retro the ductwork in. Many of the original residents (who are now ~70 years old) never upgraded to heat pumps and just had wood-burning inserts installed into the existing stone fireplaces to heat some of the house. 

After I moved in I find out that ALL of the drywall in the house, including the garage ceiling (not sure if others were as well) had 3/8" drywall.


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> Depends, is the house insulated good, are the windows tight, is the house wrapped, are the doors tight, drafts?.
> 
> My house is total electric I love it my electric bills are lower than anybody I know for the last 20 years.. people have electric, gas/oil combos that cost a fortune in maintenance etc.
> 
> My baseboards are all controlled by thermostats in every room.


That's where you're saving money. People can save TONS with oil of gas heat if they use hot water baseboard zones.


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

BTW, if you're using PECO, the electric rates will probably go up 10% next year. I don't know if their competitors will do the same, but I've started looking at alternatives again. My highest electric bill here was $180, but I'd rather assume the worst and have a plan to move to another supplier.


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## GoSolar (Mar 5, 2013)

*Buying a All Electric Home*

Hello Everyone, 

Newbie to this forum. My wife and I are in the market to buy a house and came across this beautiful all electric home :whistling2:. I tried reading about the pros & cons of all E homes but not much information out there. Thankfully came across this thread but this being a couple of years older just wanted to bring this post up to seek latest advice from fellas with all E home. 

Some information on house that I am looking to buy:
Location: Roswell, NM
Sq. Ft: Approx 1600; 3 bed 2 bath, 2 garage
Age: 35 years
Exterior: Stucco blocks & Interior: Carper, tile and wood.
Age of the forced air system: same as the house.

Here are few things that I would like to know before I make an offer. 

1) Is all electric home a good idea in this part of the US? This house is located in Roswell, NM and the avg weather here is 59/39 in winter and 93/77 in summer.

2) I plan to ask for last year's utility bill history from the previous owner so that it gives me an understanding of what the average bill was for that house but again it will vary from user to user. Anything else that I should ask for?

3) The home says it has been energy audited in 2012. My understanding is that in energy audit they just survey the house checking the insulation, etc. but what matters is if the issues that came up in energy audit were fixed or not. Am I missing something here?

The electric company here is Xcel Energy and there electric rates for residetntial service are $0.079127/kWh for all kWh used per month during winter months & $.087881/kWh for all kWh used per month during summer months.

Any help on this would be appreciated. :thumbsup:


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow, I can't believe the size of some of the electric bills mentioned in this thread. I live in a log home in the Eastern Panhandle of WV that was built three years ago (did it ourselves). We have a 3.5-ton heat pump; the auxiliary heat is a propane furnace. The only other gas appliance is a tankless water heater. Our electric bill averages about $75 a month, and the propane is $35 a month (level payment plan).


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## Rainchainsworld (Mar 5, 2013)

_Pros_ & _Cons_ of Different _for electric Home_ Methods. There's_ Electric_ Heat, e_lectricity_ is 100 percent efficient; _all_ of the power generated is turned into electric heat. and the _electric_ furnace is a popular heating facility in many _homes._


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

GoSolar said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Newbie to this forum. My wife and I are in the market to buy a house and came across this beautiful all electric home :whistling2:. I tried reading about the pros & cons of all E homes but not much information out there. Thankfully came across this thread but this being a couple of years older just wanted to bring this post up to seek latest advice from fellas with all E home.
> 
> ...


Is it electric resistance heat, or a heat pump.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Rainchainsworld said:


> _Pros_ & _Cons_ of Different _for electric Home_ Methods. There's_ Electric_ Heat, e_lectricity_ is 100 percent efficient; _all_ of the power generated is turned into electric heat. and the _electric_ furnace is a popular heating facility in many _homes._


http://www.energykinetics.com/savingsHeatingFuelComparisons.shtml


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

You can put charts up 24 hours a day 365 a year but it don't matter when.

You have a oil furnace or gas furnace that needs attention and service and fossil fuel delivery.

I wouldn't have it in my house and I have been in the HVAC industry since 1968.

Electric heat no maintenance no service, no replacement , comfort in every room, no rip off HVAC Companies coming into my house. 

Comfortable and clean.

By the way I am RSES Certified and took the RSES heat pump school just to mention two.

By the way heat pumps suck to. Just wait till they break you'll see.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

COLDIRON said:


> You can put charts up 24 hours a day 365 a year but it don't matter when.
> 
> You have a oil furnace or gas furnace that needs attention and service and fossil fuel delivery.
> 
> ...


The save more money then they cost to fix if they do break down. Plus you can always switch it to emergency heat.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

beenthere said:


> the save more money then they cost to fix if they do break down. Plus you can always switch it to emergency heat.


 
"coldiron out"


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

COLDIRON said:


> You can put charts up 24 hours a day 365 a year but it don't matter when.
> 
> You have a oil furnace or gas furnace that needs attention and service and fossil fuel delivery.
> 
> ...


The last time you put in a gas furnace was when, in 1967? And I beg to differ, I come a cross many electric heating elements and sequencers and fusible links that were bad. I'm not saying one is better than the other but as an hvac tech you yourself would be able to install double wall flue pipe correctly, no classes needed for that. That was said if your concern was safety. If it's energy efficiency and Mother Earth and Earth Day and Woodstock, then buy you a 98% efficient furnace. And since you're an hvac tech then fix the dang thing if and when but you as well should know I'm about to say this to you, the better the install the better a system runs. If you're not that good at installation, what with you being so old and all , then you're bound to have more issues.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Doc Holliday said:


> The last time you put in a gas furnace was when, in 1967? And I beg to differ, I come a cross many electric heating elements and sequencers and fusible links that were bad. I'm not saying one is better than the other but as an hvac tech you yourself would be able to install double wall flue pipe correctly, no classes needed for that. That was said if your concern was safety. If it's energy efficiency and Mother Earth and Earth Day and Woodstock, then buy you a 98% efficient furnace. And since you're an hvac tech then fix the dang thing if and when but you as well should know I'm about to say this to you, the better the install the better a system runs. If you're not that good at installation, what with you being so old and all , then you're bound to have more issues.


Answer 2012 installation, I can see you don't respect other mechanics or RSES members and you have a problem with people that are old and not your age. Someday you'll understand I can't explain it to you. You sound like a guy that will make a good mechanic in a few years just keep plugging away. It's really difficult to understand your rambling words that mean nothing like double wall pipe, safety, Earth Day, Woodstock, 98% Furnaces, telling me to fix it, etc etc. I fixed more Conditioner's, Commercial Refrigeration, Industrial, Commercial, Residential equipment than you have even looked at or read about. So my young man have some respect for other tradesman regardless of age. As a matter of fact respect the old heads even more they might teach you something if you listen.

OH! by the way I was referring to Baseboard electric heat not electric air handlers with sequencers and the like. Which I have installed and serviced for many years. Have you even been in an engine room with a Thousand Ton Chiller?


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## Shockley (Jan 21, 2017)

No problem. I've a 2275 sq ft well-insulated 1 1/2 story house near the Youngstown airport. All-electric. Just paid $186 December electric bill. Half the month was f-ing cold. Nice having only one utility bill. Would do it again.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Shockley said:


> No problem. I've a 2275 sq ft well-insulated 1 1/2 story house near the Youngstown airport. All-electric. Just paid $186 December electric bill. Half the month was f-ing cold. Nice having only one utility bill. Would do it again.


You do realize how old this thread is... Right? It all depends on your utility rates. 

I'm not sure which youngstiwn you referred to, but here (ontario) if I got tried that, your bill would be +$600/mth in the coldest months. That's using an average performing heat pump with electric backup heat. 

Cheers!


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