# No sill plate



## keefrichards (Oct 29, 2015)

I recently purchased a brick ranch home that was built in 1955 in Central PA. I had a home inspection before purchasing the home. I have cold floors in certain parts of the house so I was going to start by insulating the rim joists. I bought Dow blue Styrofoam insulation board and Great Stuff. As I started to shopvac the cavities last night I noticed that there is no sill plate. The floor joists and rim joists rest directly on the block wall. There is no vapor barrier or covering of any type over the top of the block wall. Just the block cavities open to the conditioned space. I don’t see any evidence of rot on the joists. I looked at the exterior of the home and the brick goes down to the top of the block.
Right now I’m guessing that putting foam against the rim joist is going to do little-to-nothing for air sealing and heat loss at that point since the block cavities are open to the basement. And sealing the top of the block in each cavity is probably bad news for moisture trapped there against the joists. At least air can move freely around the joists at the foundation presently.
I read somewhere that to replace a sill plate expect anywhere in the $80-120 pricerange per linear foot. Could I expect the same in this case and is jacking up the house even possible with a brick exterior?
Should the home inspector have noticed this and brought it to our attention either verbally or in the report?
Any suggestions?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

The house has been there 50+ years. You say the joists are fine. What are you worrying about? Why would you spend money on raising the house? Maybe the inspector didn't say anything because that's the typical building practice for the time and area. Or maybe he just missed it. Are the blocks filled with concrete on top?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I don't have any suggestions for a sill plate installation, but, I will say that you gain very little in insulating the rim joist area. Why? Because you still have cold air finding its way into your home from the 3 or 4 courses of uninsulated block above grade. Sure, it may knock off a little bit of the chill, but, in terms of keeping heat in your home, it is of minimal value because of the aforementioned concrete block. Now, if you finish those block walls at some point in the future, insulating the whole wall would be a great help at keeping the heat in.


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## keefrichards (Oct 29, 2015)

For most of the foundation there is no block or hardly any block showing above grade. At the most we have maybe 1 course of block showing at one end of the house. Most of the foundation exterior you just see brick down to grade.


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## keefrichards (Oct 29, 2015)

The blocks are not filled with concrete on top. They are open. 

I'm worried because the room that is the coldest in the house is the room over which we have the most unsealed penetrations through the rim joist. I want to do all that I can to improve energy efficiency because we have oil heat.

I'm also worried because we have had moisture problems in the basement and we have untreated lumber sitting on a porous block wall.

Is this not cause for concern?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

keefrichards said:


> The blocks are not filled with concrete on top. They are open.
> 
> I'm worried because the room that is the coldest in the house is the room over which we have the most unsealed penetrations through the rim joist. I want to do all that I can to improve energy efficiency because we have oil heat.
> 
> ...


 I'm not saying do nothing about the situation. I said ,I don't think spending the money raising the house is the most economic solution. I don't know what you mean by, "unsealed penetrations through the rim joist". I would seal those first or rodents will find their way in. You don't say if this area is a crawl space or a full height basement. Moisture in a full height basement can be controlled by a dehumidifier in the "non heating seasons. I would insulate the rim joists with foam board. I would seal the tops of the concrete blocks with concrete. I would insulate the interior block wall. If the space is unheated, I would insulate the ceiling joists.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I like everything Ron said. I would add that perhaps talking to some neighbors to see how their house was built might ease SOME of your concerns. You see some wacky things in certain parts of the country. In my area, a small town close by has many homes built WITHOUT footers for the foundation and yes, many, of them sank leaving floors in those homes sloping all over the place.

I've never seen a home without a sill plate, but, wouldn't doubt that a contractor or even some architect back in the day deemed it ok to go without one........that's why I say look at other homes in your area that may have been built that way for a reason, maybe not a good reason........but done that way because of standards in your area at the time.

Also, you might want to look into the moisture issues before plunging into the sill plate issue. You may have poor drainage, or cracks in the foundation allowing water penetration into the basement. That would be more of a pressing issue at the moment in my opinion.


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## keefrichards (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks for the replies so far and I agree that jacking up the house is unwarranted at this point...
I have a full size basement and we've had a foundation repair contractor address our moisture issues, (Drain channel on perimeter of basement going to pit and pumped out 10ft away from foundation.) but that's not going to eliminate dampness or water vapor entering the foundation through the wall or capillary wicking. 

By unsealed penetrations through the rim joist, I mean plumbing and wires exiting the home without any caulking or foam sealing the holes.

Found a picture on FamilyHandyman of a guy doing exactly what I would have to do in my case to fully air seal that area.

So my main question: Should I seal and insulate the rim joist? There's brick on the other side but there is an air gap between wood and brick that I'm assuming is also open to the block wall.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Insulate and seal the rim jpist, then insulate the basement ceiling/main building floor. Way more cost effective than raising the house. Ron


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Welcome to the forum! 
Impossible to raise the house as the veneer brick is tied to the wood frame wall numerous times for SOP. The cells should be capped with canned foam or better, poured-in bead insulation- then filled. OR better still, foil-faced foam board against both the wood rim and the open cells of the CMU. Foil facing (or plastic wrapped) stops any summertime moisture drive (infiltration/vapor) through the wood to expedite drying there. Insulate with R-10 unfaced per location, footnote "c"; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Pennsylvania

Gary


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## Eamensch (Jun 15, 2020)

@kiefrichards
Did you ever resolve the sill plate issue? I am currently in process of buying a house in central Pa that was built in 1966 and has no sill plate. I am concerned if I should proceed with purchasing it. I am wondering how you resolved your issue and if you’ve had any issues since 2015?


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## HandyAndyInNC (Jun 4, 2018)

That house was never designed to have them. If you block off all that area, the air will not move up the walls to keep them dry, plus the basement to have the air exchanged. That air also keeps the foundation dry. You cannot treat old houses like you see new structures. Stop watching the tv shows and trying to do what they do. Think about the design of the structure. Everything has a job. You have now covered the job for air movement. Things in the basement will now begin to get damp and musty.


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