# Plumbing for natural gas ???



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

steel for gas so far as i know

DM


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

How far are you going to run them?

Depending on size it uses 1/2" black iron pipe.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Either black iron or flexible corrugated stainless is used.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I hate track gas line. It looks terrible!


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

Black pipe and gasflex are the most common. Gasflex is expensive but it installs real fast. I use both depending on the situation.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Black pipe is neater looking and cooler to use.


~snicker~ any of you pros ever see a dry waller run a screw in to the flexable stuff that was run inside a wall.....that was one dry waller that gave up smoking lol


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Black pipe is neater looking and cooler to use.
> 
> 
> ~snicker~ any of you pros ever se a dry waller run a screw in to the flexable stuff that was run inside a wall.....that was one dry waller that gave up smoking lol


I'm a black pipe guy myself. I just seems much safer.

I use flexpipe for short runs and never in the wall.

Usually it is when I am in a hurry and being lazy...:whistling2:


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks, black pipe it is.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Also, don't arbitrarily assume that 1/2" pipe will be adequate to supply the appliance(s). In many, many circumstances it will not. Gas pipes must be sized, which is a complicated process that your plumber hopefully understands.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

*An inspector?*

Cool! Are we allowed to pick on him?:laughing:

Just funnin' guy. How ya be to night?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Also, don't arbitrarily assume that 1/2" pipe will be adequate to supply the appliance(s). In many, many circumstances it will not. Gas pipes must be sized, which is a complicated process that your plumber hopefully understands.


OP didn't respond when i asked what they were hooking up but they did mention a water heater.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> My old house has natural gas fittings for gas heaters but they're not where we would like them to be and two of the rooms don't even have them. What is typically used for plumbing natural gas? steel pipe? copper? PEX? I'm going to get some estimates for the work but I like to learn as much as I can beforehand. Thanks.


Just a do-it-yourselfer's opinion, you can run your own black pipe(black iron) It really isnt that difficult either! Your local supply store will have all the sizes you could imagine, to make this job as easy as pie. I just finished the install of a 54ft run(from meter to furnace), with three bends(elbows). It really wasnt that difficult! If you can read a tape measure you can map and measure your run and put it where you want it! Thats exactly what i done, i drew a map of measured lengths of each run and exactly where i wanted it to go. I only missed with one measurement by 1" and well black pipe has some flex for those small mishaps(miscalculations). So a simple pull in the opposite direction made the a perfect fit for the install to go excactly where i wanted it to go! 

So do it yourself, you will have a blast! Get yourself a couple of pipe wrenches, and a tub of pipe-dope, and enjoy yourself when your done enjoy the fruits of your labor! Besides your labor=$0.00 thier labor+$65.00 hr. you do the math!:thumbsup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

I'd be curious to see wht you size you ran. Allowances must be made for the amount of flow in cu in for each.

The pipe can.t be all one size and feed a WH and furnace ect


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Cool! Are we allowed to pick on him?:laughing:


Better pack a lunch! I'm pretty crafty! :laughing:


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Here's a recent thread where we covered the basics of sizing gas lines.
http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=26703&highlight=sizing+pipe

Of course, you need the charts in the code book, but this thread should help DIYers understand the process. If anyone needs a hand sizing pipes just post a question in plumbing and I'll walk you through it.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> I'd be curious to see wht you size you ran. Allowances must be made for the amount of flow in cu in for each.
> 
> The pipe can.t be all one size and feed a WH and furnace ect


Well i thought you wasnt allowed to comment per: your insurance,:laughing:

Well here it goes, my first joint, was a 2"X2ft, incased in a wall sleeve to go through the foundation since that is what the gas go needs to connect to, then i ran a reducer(bell reducer) to reduce from the 2" to 1", then i added 1 joint(10ft) to that, then an elbow(to make a corner) then 2 more joints of 1"(20ft) then another elbow(90%)then i added a 1"X1" nipple then a and then a reducer to reduce the pipe from 1" to 3/4" then i added one joint(10ft)of 3/4" then you will never guess what i done, yup i added another 90% corner, then a 3/4"X1" nipple then another reducer to reduce my pipe to 1/2" then i ran another joint(10 ft) of 1/2" then yup you guesses it another elbow(90%)then a 1/2"X1" nipple to a union, then a (4ft) section of 1/2" then a elbow(90%) then a 1/2"X4" nipple incased in a wall sleeve to get my service live back outside to the furnace, which is very nicely popping up through my newly poured concrete foundation, with a concrete sleeve,then i added another 1/2" union, then a 1/2"X2" nipple then a 1/2" brass ball valve, here i will attach a 2ft section of 1/2"stainless stell flex line to make the run from the ball valve the to the gas valve inside of the furnace.

:laughing::laughing:Not to shabby for an 8th grade uneducated dummy!!!!!!:laughing:
I had no help doing this project(skilled craftsmen), and this was my first black pipe installation project!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Your pipe should have been sized based on the btu/h input rating of the appliances being supplied, as well as the distance from the meter to the farthest gas appliance in this house. Without that information, it is a shot in the dark as to whether or not it is sized correctly.

Also, I hope you air tested your line for leaks before gassing it up.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Also, I hope you air tested your line for leaks before gassing it up.


What do you think i am a dummy just cause i am uneducated? Yes it was pressurized to 105 psi, the soap water sprayed on every joint!
Heck i could of tested the way i used to in the old days, wait till the gas is turned on the run down the line with a lighter!:laughing:
Im not kidding thats how i used to do it! Ng is at such a low pressure when you do find a leak it burns no more of a flame then a struck lighter!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

MrShadetree0222 said:


> What do you think i am a dummy just cause i am uneducated?


Relax. Nobody called you a dummy or insinuated that you are. Those are your words. 

As for flame testing natural gas piping, that is pure ignorance, and to even suggest that it is a viable means of leak testing is nothing short of irresponsible.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Relax. Nobody called you a dummy or insinuated that you are. Those are your words.
> 
> As for flame testing natural gas piping, that is pure ignorance, and to even suggest that it is a viable means of leak testing is nothing short of irresponsible.


 Yeah , but did he pull a permit:whistling2:


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Yeah , but did he pull a permit:whistling2:


Thats the benefit of living in the woods, no permits required for anything, not electrical, plumbing, hvac, structural, architectural, The only permit required is a remodel permit but only if the individual project exceeds 50% of current market value of your home!!! Get it--------- individual project!!!!!!! So limit the size of your project not to exceed the 50% mark of the current market value of your home!

Hey I know that no one called me a dummy, nor insulted me, i just found it funny that i would be questioned of that nature... Sorry if i misrepresented myself in that comment! 
And wow, what a repsonce to my method of inspecting for leaks in the old days, Again them were old days before i becam ea little educated in what if....... Didnt take long to figure out not a good idea, and yes air is a much better alternative to NG. 

I finally got to fire the system tonight, no heat yet couldnt get rescheduled till tomarrow at 12noon for gas-ng turn on, but the a/c if fully operative and blowing like i have never been blowed before... All my problems are now resolved for lack of pressure in the system, My bedroom used to be 105% degrees(seriously) and 85 in living room, and 75 in kitchen, rear bathroom would be just as cold in side as outside, judging by the mass/flow of air coming from the vents at equal pressure ii do believe that most or all of my issues are good to go. 
So if i have any heating issues tomarrow after gas-ng turn on maybe i can holler back at you folks and get some input. If i am still welcome.

Ignorance is not having the knowledge of' and stupidity is having the knowledge of' and not using it!
I am really fond of this saying, this reallly does apply to me in the nature of which i choose to do things, back in the day i used to do some pretty ignorant things( but because of lack of knowledge for the situation) now Most everything i do is done fo ra reason, and done with knowledge!
But dont get me wrong i am only human, so stupidity does play a factor!!!(sometimes)


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> My old house has natural gas fittings for gas heaters but they're not where we would like them to be and two of the rooms don't even have them. What is typically used for plumbing natural gas? steel pipe? copper? PEX? I'm going to get some estimates for the work but I like to learn as much as I can beforehand. Thanks.


DVLCHLD' I am so sorry for jacking(hijacking) your post, it just dawned on me that this was your post that i kept on responding in. I am sorry but i managed to keep returning to this thread for the purpose of comments posted to me, and continued to post in here as if it were my own thread! 
I do hope you can except a sincere apology from me MrShadetree0222
As i am truely sorry for jacking your thread, wasn't very nice of me, and not my typical behavior..


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*No prob*

No biggie. It's all educational. I'm going to buy 4 wall mounted natural gas heaters. One medium sized one for the main living area, smaller ones for each of the two bedrooms, and an even smaller one for the bathroom. The house already has all these but they are very old and we would like two of them in slightly different locations. I have another question. I have one old gas pipe that does not have pressure in it. It comes out of the wall, runs along the baseboard about 2 feet, then goes through the wall into the next room. When you open the valve there is no pressure at all. If I use a hand held grinder with an abrassive metal cut-off wheel to cut this pipe off at the wall is there any chance of the pipe having some residual gas product in it? I'm pretty sure natural gas doesn't leave any residue in a pipe but I'm still nervous about using this tool to cut a pipe that use to have gas in it.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Idunno, as much as I might diagree with a code official on on an issue, I am still glad they are there.

If there ws no official local oversight building safety would be in as bad a shape as the subp-prime crisis.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> No biggie. It's all educational. I'm going to buy 4 wall mounted natural gas heaters. One medium sized one for the main living area, smaller ones for each of the two bedrooms, and an even smaller one for the bathroom. The house already has all these but they are very old and we would like two of them in slightly different locations. I have another question. I have one old gas pipe that does not have pressure in it. It comes out of the wall, runs along the baseboard about 2 feet, then goes through the wall into the next room. When you open the valve there is no pressure at all. If I use a hand held grinder with an abrassive metal cut-off wheel to cut this pipe off at the wall is there any chance of the pipe having some residual gas product in it? I'm pretty sure natural gas doesn't leave any residue in a pipe but I'm still nervous about using this tool to cut a pipe that use to have gas in it.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> No biggie. It's all educational. I'm going to buy 4 wall mounted natural gas heaters. One medium sized one for the main living area, smaller ones for each of the two bedrooms, and an even smaller one for the bathroom. The house already has all these but they are very old and we would like two of them in slightly different locations. I have another question. I have one old gas pipe that does not have pressure in it. It comes out of the wall, runs along the baseboard about 2 feet, then goes through the wall into the next room. When you open the valve there is no pressure at all. If I use a hand held grinder with an abrassive metal cut-off wheel to cut this pipe off at the wall is there any chance of the pipe having some residual gas product in it? I'm pretty sure natural gas doesn't leave any residue in a pipe but I'm still nervous about using this tool to cut a pipe that use to have gas in it.


 No Ng doesnt leave a residual but to over ensure your safety and everyone around you then go ahead and turn the system off at the meter, and find your furthest thing in line and burn it till it dies, to guarantee no Ng left in the line! That would be the absolute sefest way to ensure your safe before grinding or cuttig or whatever measure you choose to do the removal! But why not just trace the line backwards and remove it that away? Trace it backwards, remove the line-in, and cap what ever might eb left behind wether a "t" or an elbow or what ever feeds the line you wish to discontinue! Just my 0.02cents worth!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Does the state fire marshall Know about you?

He should if he doesn't.

You are telling people in an open forum to place a flame in front of an old gas pipe.

BRILLIANT!


Then i guess we could always say "I didn't know the gun was loaded". That is the same logic you are applying with an open flame.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Does the state fire marshall Know about you?
> 
> He should if he doesn't.
> 
> ...


If you go back and re-read the post you would see that-that was a an act of ignorance(Ignorance is not having the knowledge of', and stupidity is having the knowledge of' and not using it) in my past before i became more educated about the dangers of testing live gas-ng lines with a lighter! now this is a help thread for the purpose of helping DVLCHLD, now if you wish to bash me feel free to do so in one of my threads or in a private message, but keep your negative comments about my ignorance from younger days, out of this mans thread!
And what you never in your entire life even as a younger youth made a misjudgement, endangering your safety or the safety of someone elses life around you?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Post 27 you say to hold a flame on the open pipe til it goes out.

Even with a gas meter closed off this is a dangerous practice as the meter valve seat may leak by even slightly. Inside a pipe it be comes a bomb.

So I am not bashing you I am calling into question your practices dealing with NG.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Post 27 you say to hold a flame on the open pipe til it goes out.
> 
> Even with a gas meter closed off this is a dangerous practice as the meter valve seat may leak by even slightly. Inside a pipe it be comes a bomb.
> 
> So I am not bashing you I am calling into question your practices dealing with NG.


Wow you have way to much time on your hands, that was meant in the form that what ever unit was at the furthest point of the line could be burned off, so if it was a stove then run a burner till all remains of ng was burned off, or if it was a space heater at the furthest point of the his system then he could burn the space heater to burn the remains of the gas in the line, now no where was it implamented nor instructed for him to hold an open flame to a gas line to burn the remains off! And that is the purpose of burneing a unit already in place becuase if the unit doesnt quit burning after a a period of time then it is safe to assume that their is a problem with the valve seat and then you could call out a technician, or call the gas co to shut off at the main!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I called him on the flame test thing and he addressed it. We all agree it isn't advisable and therefore wasn't worth mentioning, so let's let it die and get back to helping the OP with his question. 

I agree that it would be best to go ahead and shut off the gas to the house and purge the system (and air the place out) before doing any cutting of gaslines. Remember that gaslines inside your house have about 1/2 psi of pressure in them, which is nothing more than a whisper of pressure. It would be very hard if not impossible to detect by feel or sound. But it is plenty to feed one hell of a fire or explosion. 

Once you've determined that there's no gas in the line, there's no danger in cutting a pipe that used to have gas in it. No flammable residue. 

Just for my own benefit, can you provide the manufacturer name and/or model of the gas heaters you're installing? We don't see those around here, and I'm curious to see how they're vented and their listed applications (bedrooms?).


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Very well put. And I'll let it die but my professionalism (as well as yours I am sure) is red lining.


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*heaters*

Here's the one we're going to get for the living room. It has a thermostatic fan in it which is nice. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100594228. Here's one we are looking at for the bedrooms. http://www.homestandbysystems.com/a...1004&PiID=2078503&refid=FR247-GLW1004_2078503. It's manual control instead of a thermostatic fan. These heaters work great and they're very energy effecient.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Thanks for posting that DVLCHLD. Let us know how it works out!


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> Here's the one we're going to get for the living room. It has a thermostatic fan in it which is nice. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100594228. Here's one we are looking at for the bedrooms. http://www.homestandbysystems.com/a...1004&PiID=2078503&refid=FR247-GLW1004_2078503. It's manual control instead of a thermostatic fan. These heaters work great and they're very energy effecient.


Some great choices for your applications, so how are you coming along with the project? Were you able to track backwards the lines and remove the old out-of-service lines without having to cut them off? Keep us updated! As I have now completed my project so i now have more time fo rhelping instead of needing help!


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*update*

I removed some of the skirting around the outside of the house and had a look under there. That pipe is just hanging there not connected to anything so I'm just going to cut it off. I also noticed that all the old water plumbing is still under the house. They replaced all the plumbing with PEX pipe which works great but they didn't remove the old plumbing. I'm pretty picky and I want it all removed. That's going to be a job.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> I removed some of the skirting around the outside of the house and had a look under there. That pipe is just hanging there not connected to anything so I'm just going to cut it off. I also noticed that all the old water plumbing is still under the house. They replaced all the plumbing with PEX pipe which works great but they didn't remove the old plumbing. I'm pretty picky and I want it all removed. That's going to be a job.


 
Owtch.

You got good head room or are you going to have to lay on your back to do the work?


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

picky=frugal if they're copper!! good recycle $$$ there right now.

DM


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> Here's the one we're going to get for the living room. It has a thermostatic fan in it which is nice. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100594228. Here's one we are looking at for the bedrooms. http://www.homestandbysystems.com/a...1004&PiID=2078503&refid=FR247-GLW1004_2078503. It's manual control instead of a thermostatic fan. These heaters work great and they're very energy effecient.


 
JFYI

Non vented heaters tend to add a large amount of moisture to the air.

If you intend to decrease your air infiltration down the road. You could run into condensation problems in the winter.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Beenthere, I am curious about the products of combustion.

These are clean buring appliance, granted, but putting in so many in a single residence does not present a hazard from the products of combustion?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Personally, I don't like them at all.

Carbon Monoxide.
Carbon Dioxide.
Nitrogen Dioxide.
Nitrogen Oxide.

The first one is toxic.
The second one is just an oxygen displacer(as in non toxic).
The last 2 combine to form NOx.

Not a one of them is good to breath for any extended period of time.

People with asethma don't do well in rooms/houses with these type heaters.

And I've been to more then one place where the kids were constantly sick after moving from a place with a central heater, to a house/apartment with unvented heaters.

Most, if not all of them use to recomend opening a window to use them.

Used as the sore sourse of heat in a home or apartment is asking for trouble. Death, brain damage.

Unfortunately, its nearly impossible to convince someone that has used then for a couple years, that they are dangerous, and unsafe for whole house heating.

Its like drinking. Its effects can be slow to kill, or irreversibly harm you. So people don't notice the effects. And find it hard to believe the truth.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Yeah, that's what I thought, but all my experience is with central system .

The fact these wall units are not vented to the OD ambient had always worried me.

Singularly these units are ok for one room IMO, but used in multiple they could very well raise some health issues that could be deadly.

Unless that house DVCHLD lives in is very loose insulation wise I think we have a recipe for disaster in the offing.

I have serviced several homes with Florida rooms that use an unvented wall heater like the OP has and there was a distinct tinge in the air from the fumes lingering in the air from the gas heater.

My customer said that he had to turn it off after a while because it gave him breathing problems.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Yea. The oxygen depletion sensor doesn't prevent operation at above safe level.
It only really trips just before a deadly level. And then the sensor isn't at sitting on standing height. So you can get a bad dose of CO poisoning if your sitting in a chair.

Hot/Warm CO is lighter then oxygen. 

They really cut down on how much oxygen you have to breath. And of course. That oxygen is replaced with the chemicals I posted earlier.
So unless there is a fan moving air from other rooms to the room with the heater. Headaches and other ills are common with them. Unless they're opening a window in the room that has the heater.

They use to be real popular around here. Most people stop using them after a year or 2.
After they got tired of paying for the deductable on their health insurance plan. 
Doctors don't always think to ask, if someone got a unvented heater installed recently. And then just write scrips for Migraines.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DVLCHLD, I hope you read this before you go to the expense of buying them.

A cntral ducted system would be a lot safer.

Good luck.


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*crap*

Oh CRAP !!! I didn't know these heaters would make my family sick. I guess I need to look into a different type. I can't afford to have a central heat and air system installed. Is there another kind of NG heater I can use that won't make us all sick? Would the vented type be any better? This old house has a huge empty attic so running vents would be really easy.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

vented would not make you sick, no. =o) perhaps just do a VENTED ng furnace and use window units for a/c? (cheapest, i imagine)

DM


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I was curious about them for the reason of venting and carbon monoxide. I recall that there was allowable number of heaters per square footage of living space and a different number for sleeping areas.

Might be worth looking into through-the-wall PTAC units instead.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> Oh CRAP !!! I didn't know these heaters would make my family sick. I guess I need to look into a different type. I can't afford to have a central heat and air system installed. Is there another kind of NG heater I can use that won't make us all sick? Would the vented type be any better? This old house has a huge empty attic so running vents would be really easy.


 
Look, let's figure this out together. We caught it before it went to the point of you wasting money.

I would suggest first getting an estimate (Three is what is usually recommended) for a ducted system with a furnace.

Then do some number crunching and see if it fits into the budget.

You can always check here for help and if you need the number of a contractor in your area there are plenty on on line resources available.

PM any one of the Pros on this board and they can probably put you in touch with somebody close by.

If it turns out you want to take a crack at the install yourself you got this site to back you up along with other online sites.

Sorry it worked out like that, but at least you won't be ruining your health
now


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

IFGC: 621.2 Prohibited Uses.

"One or more unvented room heaters shall not be used as the sole source of comfort heating in a dwelling unit".

There sole intent for unvented heaters is as a supplement only.
Unvented heaters are limited in size by room cubic foot volume. Adjoining rooms can be included in sizing if the rooms can not be intentionally, or accidentally isolated from each other. Unvented heaters are lmited to 20 BTUs per hour input per cubic foot of room volume. Along with a max permitted BTU under any circumstance of 40,000 BTUs per hour input. 

They do make vented heaters, that can be vented thru the wall.

But, they usually have expensive parts.

Individual vented room heaters could cost you more then installing a central ducted system.

Please investigate all other options before commiting to individual room heaters.
Although rated at 80% efficiency. They require fresh air to be brought into the house, by either means of high natural infiltration. Or mechanical means. Either way, you have to bring in fresh cold outside air into the warm house, you just paid to heat.
Kinda of defeating the purpose of having closed doors and windows.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> Oh CRAP !!! I didn't know these heaters would make my family sick. I guess I need to look into a different type. I can't afford to have a central heat and air system installed. Is there another kind of NG heater I can use that won't make us all sick? Would the vented type be any better? This old house has a huge empty attic so running vents would be really easy.


Wow sorry to hear that your plan won't work as planned!
But can i suggest you possibly getting a used hvac? Thats what i done! I purchased my unit for $125.00 out of a bargain trader paper here locally. The one i purchased was removed from a home being renovated. Nothing wrong with buying used cars, used houses, heck nothing even wrong with using used Fishing rods, so theres nothign wrong with using used hvac units.
I know you dont already have pre'existing ducts, but mapping and sizing your ducts, would be a breeze with the help of this site. And purchase of the new ducts are very inexpensive! Electrical/plumbing would be a breeze as well with others and my help from here! Heck you find the right deal you just might get a good source for the complete project!
When i removed my old unit and sold it it was sold with everything ecept for recep covers. And i do mean everything, all the way to the breakers out of the breaker box!
You dont have your region or city listed or i could start searching immediatly for you a used unit! If you dont want to public your private info then PM. me and I will start the search immediatly!
You can also find a many of used units on the auction sites(you should know who they are if not then pm and i will provide you that info aswell!
I am doen with my project now so i have all the time in the world to assist you with your project and i would liek nothign more then to dedicate my time to assisting you with your project!


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

DVLCHLD said:


> Oh CRAP !!! I didn't know these heaters would make my family sick. I guess I need to look into a different type. I can't afford to have a central heat and air system installed. Is there another kind of NG heater I can use that won't make us all sick? Would the vented type be any better? This old house has a huge empty attic so running vents would be really easy.


Hey just had the wife standing over my shoulder during my last post in reference to this, and she just now suggested our old base board heaters!I know you was looking for a NG heater but this is an option! Considering time allotment, and cost!

Though not very cost efficient to operate, I have three 8' 220/eletric baseboard heaters we would be more then happy to donate to a great cause as yours!
These heaters were purchased last season for the reason of my old hvac not being big enough to heat the down stairs let alone the upstairs aswell. So we closed the damper to the supply that fed the upstairs and used base board heaters up thier!, WEll even before it got cold two of my kids moved out of the house, so 2 of the units were never even used after the innitial testing of the units, and one of the units was in my sons room who still at home but he was either never home or slept downstairs on the couch, so his unit was used very minumally. Just a suggestion!
If nothing else we could get you through this season and maybe get you on track for a system install next yr.(maybe tax time or whatever/whenever) Just a great suggestion form the wifey!

By the way the baseboard heaters were also priced very reasonably, at the box stores, when I was at one the other day, I seen the 8ftrs priced for $33.00 each,and the 12ftrs priced at $48.00 each, if you are only supplying the three rooms then this might be an option as well! the baseboard heaters are inexpensive, it is the thermostats that are expensive for them! So if you want to purchase your own, base board heaters then I will part with my three thermostats from my heaters if that could help you with the cost!!
Let me know!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DVLCHLD*  
_Here's the one we're going to get for the living room. It has a thermostatic fan in it which is nice. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100594228. Here's one we are looking at for the bedrooms. http://www.homestandbysystems.com/as...LW1004_2078503. It's manual control instead of a thermostatic fan. These heaters work great and they're very energy effecient._


MrShadetree0222 




Some great choices for your applications, so how are you coming along with the project? Were you able to track backwards the lines and remove the old out-of-service lines without having to cut them off? Keep us updated! As I have now completed my project so i now have more time fo rhelping instead of needing help!
__________________
My house, a 1921 Sears-Robuk 1 1/2 story 4 bedroom, 2 bath 1975 sqr ft house! Ordered March 1921, delivered via: railcar 1922, assembled October 1922! Ignorance is not having the knowledge of', Stupidity is having the knowledge of' and not using it! 
end of quote

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


:whistling2::thumbup:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

MrShadetree0222 said:


> Hey just had the wife standing over my shoulder during my last post in reference to this, and she just now suggested our old base board heaters!I know you was looking for a NG heater but this is an option! Considering time allotment, and cost!
> 
> Though not very cost efficient to operate, I have three 8' 220/eletric baseboard heaters we would be more then happy to donate to a great cause as yours!
> These heaters were purchased last season for the reason of my old hvac not being big enough to heat the down stairs let alone the upstairs aswell. So we closed the damper to the supply that fed the upstairs and used base board heaters up thier!, WEll even before it got cold two of my kids moved out of the house, so 2 of the units were never even used after the innitial testing of the units, and one of the units was in my sons room who still at home but he was either never home or slept downstairs on the couch, so his unit was used very minumally. Just a suggestion!
> ...


Used equipment is a gamble at best and could be unsafe. You never know what is really wrong with it.

Baseboard heat is going to require a 220 circuit for each room. Now you have the cost of an electrician and possibly faulty and hazardous used base board. And theres the fuse or breaker box in your home, is able to sustain the electric heat.
This spells fire to me. INHO


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DVLCHLD*
> _Here's the one we're going to get for the living room. It has a thermostatic fan in it which is nice. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100594228. Here's one we are looking at for the bedrooms. http://www.homestandbysystems.com/as...LW1004_2078503. It's manual control instead of a thermostatic fan. These heaters work great and they're very energy effecient._
> 
> ...


So whats your point hvac-lover? Myself not being personally knowledged about the 'safety factors' involved with these units, I was mearly looking at the installation ease, cost efficiency of the purchase, looks and beauty, And burning efficiency off the units!
So what you trying to make me look like an  for my ignorance of the safety of these units? After he(dvlchld) posted the links to the individual unit I went and investigated the units listed, and after reading the specs of the units, and the installation of the units, and looks of the units for presentability, yeah "it was a great choice" for his applications!!!!!!!

By the way their are no safety issues( in reference to the different toxins, and health hazards associated with these units) posted in the website links he provided. So without personal knowledge, and or use of the units listed or education about this style of unit how else would a do-it-yourself'er know about these issues! 
Incase you keep forgetting we are Do-it-ourselfers here at this website, So we are not educated, nor knowledged (unlike you hvac-lover)of things of that nature unless the information is offered or presented to us the consumer then we have no way of knowing!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

MrShadetree0222 said:


> So whats your point hvac-lover? Myself not being personally knowledged about the 'safety factors' involved with these units, I was mearly looking at the installation ease, cost efficiency of the purchase, looks and beauty, And burning efficiency off the units!
> So what you trying to make me look like an  for my ignorance of the safety of these units? After he(dvlchld) posted the links to the individual unit I went and investigated the units listed, and after reading the specs of the units, and the installation of the units, and looks of the units for presentability, yeah "it was a great choice" for his applications!!!!!!!
> 
> By the way their are no safety issues( in reference to the different toxins, and health hazards associated with these units) posted in the website links he provided. So without personal knowledge, and or use of the units listed or education about this style of unit how else would a do-it-yourself'er know about these issues!
> Incase you keep forgetting we are Do-it-ourselfers here at this website, So we are not educated, nor knowledged (unlike you hvac-lover)of things of that nature unless the information is offered or presented to us the consumer then we have no way of knowing!


 
That was very thoughtful of you to offer the thermostats.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> Used equipment is a gamble at best and could be unsafe. You never know what is really wrong with it.
> 
> Baseboard heat is going to require a 220 circuit for each room. Now you have the cost of an electrician and possibly faulty and hazardous used base board. And theres the fuse or breaker box in your home, is able to sustain the electric heat.
> This spells fire to me. INHO





hvaclover said:


> That was very thoughtful of you to offer the thermostats.


Well now I am not a liscensed electricain but I can tell you it doesn't require seperate curcuits for each room. And since you only deal in central units(per your previous posts) You would not be knowledged that these units are now wired (from the factory) to be run in a parralel curcuit and you can run up to three of these 8'ft base board heaters in curcuit with the use of a 30amp breaker, and 10 gauge wire! 

Seperate issue: Well since hvaclover seems to think that my 2 brand new items, and one slightly used items offered for free are "gamble and unsafe", "possibly faulty and hazardous" , oh yeah a "fire hazard" too, then you make your decision and let me know! Offer still stands!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DVLCHLD, what is your current electric rate per KW including all taxes and fees.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

MrShadetree0222 said:


> Well now I am not a liscensed electricain but I can tell you it doesn't require seperate curcuits for each room. And since you only deal in central units(per your previous posts) You would not be knowledged that these units are now wired (from the factory) to be run in a parralel curcuit and you can run up to three of these 8'ft base board heaters in curcuit with the use of a 30amp breaker, and 10 gauge wire!


That would mean they would have to be less then 2000 watts(6,826 BTUs) each.
Which the ones you have may be under 2000 watts.

A 30 amp breaker should not have more then a 24 amp continuous load drawn on it(continuous load is considered 3 consecutive hours of use).

The NEC has several sections on it.

I use to work for an Electrical/HVAC company.

Lots and lots of reading to stay up with codes.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

MrShadetree0222 said:


> Well now I am not a liscensed electricain but I can tell you it doesn't require seperate curcuits for each room. And since you only deal in central units(per your previous posts) You would not be knowledged that these units are now wired (from the factory) to be run in a parralel curcuit and you can run up to three of these 8'ft base board heaters in curcuit with the use of a 30amp breaker, and 10 gauge wire!
> 
> Seperate issue: Well since hvaclover seems to think that my 2 brand new items, and one slightly used items offered for free are "gamble and unsafe", "possibly faulty and hazardous" , oh yeah a "fire hazard" too, then you make your decision and let me know! Offer still stands!


We do electric heat. And the rooms require a separate fused circuit for each base board. local code.
You said you have no codes where you live so you are following the manufacturer's instruction which are minimum NEC code requirements.
Local municipalities can make the local code more restrictive which is what we have locally and has proven to be much safer. As Beenthere has pointed out.
That was a very magnanimous gesture offering those new items you mentioned.

But I hold to my belief that used is an accident waiting to happen. That is my firm opinion.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The other channel is down.


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## MrShadetree0222 (Oct 4, 2008)

beenthere said:


> That would mean they would have to be less then 2000 watts(6,826 BTUs) each.
> Which the ones you have may be under 2000 watts.
> 
> A 30 amp breaker should not have more then a 24 amp continuous load drawn on it(continuous load is considered 3 consecutive hours of use).
> ...


Yes they are spec'd as 6800btu's, and the draw rate per spec. charts are 7.4 amps, thats why three of them in curcuit would of been a 30 amp breaker!(7.4 amps x3 units =22.2 draw amps, overload for a 20 amp breaker) And I am sorry to be so rebutal,I tend to forget or not take into account that just cause i dont have codes then that dont mean everyone else don't! 



hvaclover said:


> We do electric heat. And the rooms require a separate fused circuit for each base board. local code.
> You said you have no codes where you live so you are following the manufacturer's instruction which are minimum NEC code requirements.
> Local municipalities can make the local code more restrictive which is what we have locally and has proven to be much safer. As Beenthere has pointed out.
> That was a very magnanimous gesture offering those new items you mentioned.
> ...


_"I am sorry"_ to be so rebutal,I tend to forget or not take into account that just cause I dont have codes then that don't mean everyone else don't! I just sit here thinking if something is right for me, then it should be good for everyone else, but that is generally not the case.
I took offense to my need to want to help someone with something of mine that is of good quality, and condition(2 items new, and one slightly used), ( thats the way i was raised, and thats how we do it in these parts of the world!) Dont let some one buy something new when you have what they want or need! but again thats just how we do things around these parts not to mentioned the way i was raised! 
So if my items are code compliance for your region/jurisdiction zoning then your welcome to them! 
Yes you (hvaclover) are entitled to your belief, about buying used. Alot of people feel the same way as you so your not out in the cold alone!
And I give you kudos, for sticking to what you belive in!


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## DVLCHLD (Sep 14, 2008)

*heat*

Thanks for the offer of the base board heaters but my father brought us a few electric space heaters that work fine. I live in North Texas so it doesn't get really cold here. I'm thinking about trying to get a central air system next year. I have a huge attic that will accomodate one nicely. I don't have a house payment or rent to pay so along with my tax return I may be able to swing it. Getting this old house in shape is alot of work. I just installed a new ceiling in one room, painted the rear porch and entry way, and did some other work. I'm so exhausted I can barely walk. lol.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Might think about doing the heat at the same time as the a/c.

Good luck.


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