# 10x10 free standing deck



## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

No; you don't need a beam in the middle. 2x8 16"OC exceeds minimum code for your 10' span, even using the updated and more demanding 2013 AWC tables. That said, if you want a stiffer deck, go with 2x10s or reduce the spacing to 12"OC. The former will be more effective.

What makes you think you need additional support on the outside joists? It's a deck, not a building, right?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Never should have notched 4 X 4's!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The outside joists will be outside of the 4x4 posts so there will be no joist hanger. Or should I just not put a joist outside at all? I have a 2x8 on both sides simply to help me make everything square and pinpoint where those outside posts should be placed. 

Joe, they are notched out so that the entire 2x8 is touching the 4x4 and I have the 2" or so for a through bolt to keep it attached. I copied how my house deck was built and its to code. 

On a side note, those posts go in the ground deeper than they stick out and they are on so hard clay like dirt so them things aren't going anywhere. I went a little crazy with that part.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also the ramp will be attached to the one side so when I'm riding the mower up it seems like all the weight will be on the one joist. Should I just double that first joist? I'll take a picture of what I have so far in a few minutes.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here ya go. Those side joists are just there to help me square everything. They were the right length. They are only attached at the 2 ends with screws. Should I leave them off completely?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

You got away with things that never should have past on your deck on the house. I would not use that as an example.
(the builder used screws instead of hanger nails in your joist hangers, the post for the railings were notched)
How many post have you seen with rotted out subflooring, rim joist, sheathing under the siding because someone did not build the deck lower then the doors threshold?
There's been hundreds of post on this site and any DIY that show's what happens.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

I see what you mean by the side joists. Problem is they're only being held up by nails. All joists must rest on a beam or be held up by a hanger. I would do away with them and install a hidden-fastener joist hanger on the corner posts. Those two joists will be 4" shorter than the rest. 

A more concerning issue is that you didn't use double 2x8 flush beams. Your beams are a single 2x8. I don't think that's sufficient. If you're getting it inspected, you'll probably get dinged for that. If no inspection, you still might want to address it . The deck might feel bouncy. Two more posts on each beam, to halve the span, would fx that.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

You'll want to install a post to support a side ramp.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I removed those side joists and started the floor joists inside the 4x4 corner posts. I cut 9 joists and have 2 up on hangers currently. Do you mean 2 2x8s on the back side away from the deck? I could still do that I guess. I have 2 bolts with washers on both sides on each of the 3 4x4 posts and the 2x8 rim joist. Keep in mind that there will never be more than 1 or 2 people on this deck and its only being built for my lawn mower which weighs 614 pounds. I won't be having parties on the thing. Lol. This deck will never have to hold more than 900-1000 pounds and that would be me on the lawnmower with my dad standing up there for some reason which will never happen so really max weight is 740 lbs at one time. Unless I gain weight. Lol

I'm not down playing the safety aspect but I just am not near as concerned about this deck as I was with the house deck. If it crashes down no one will get hurt but me. I can't get anyone to help me who knows what they are doing which is why I come here for tips. You should hear how my dad was trying to tell me to build it. Lol


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

I meant both "beams". The one directly in front of the shed and the one across from it. I use quotes because really what you have there are just joists acting as beams. They have half the span of the joists, so at least you have that going for you. They should be 2 2x8. You can't just sister a 2x8 at this point. It needs to bear on the post like the other 2x8. So unless you reconfigure the post/beam attachment, an alternative is to halve the beam span again

That said, with a live load of 10psf, what you have may be sufficient. My recommendations are based on typical deck design and code.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

look at it this way. if it fails, you won't have far to go.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I have 4 lag bolts going through the 2x8 in front of the shed and into the 2x6 board under the door frame and probably in to what ever is behind that.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

1. You cannot use through bolts with joists *on side *of 4x4's.

2. You can use 4x4, per code if *only one *header joist on the* top bearing* (notch) of the post and bolted; OR *two *(double) header joists on an approved metal *post cap*.

3. A *single *2x8 with 1/2 your post span (2.5') will meet code carrying 5' (1/2 joist span) per code.

Just notch the posts for the joists, moving them all inboard 1-1/2" and bolt them to remainder. or hanger 1/2 of them.

Gary


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The OPS is clearly not intending to design or construct the "deck" in accordance with code. This may be just fine, considering that the structure is really not a "deck" in the traditional sense of an outside structure intended to be used by people to congregate, drink, and in general have a good time. I have no idea if the local code enforcement officials think this is a "deck", or even if it needs a permit.

So discussion about this structure that cite typical code issues (example 4x4 is not a permitted size under the Prescriptive Residential Design Guide for posts) is probably besides the point. Similarly, discussion about the size of joists, beams, methods of attachment of structural elements, deck framing techniques etc. may be irrelevant. It might be helpful if the OPS describes what their basis of design is, if any, what the intended loads are, and how long they want the structure to last.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'll explain every thing as best I can. 
I am only building this deck because I need a ramp and if I just built a straight ramp from the door to the ground it would be really long and probably end right at a large tree. I built the deck so I could build a ramp off to the side and have room to turn the mower into the shed. This also makes it so that the ramp is only a few inches off the ground at the highest point. I have no intention of putting up hand rails or anything like that. 

I have the 6 4x4 posts in the ground with concrete. I have 3 basically touching the shed and 3 a little less than 9' out from shed. They are all notched 1.5" with 1 10' 2x8 laying across all 3. I put 2 4" lag bolts in each post by shed attaching to the 2x8. I have 2 through bolts in each outside post with a washer on both sides and all bolts are off center (1 near top right corner and 1 near bottom left corner). Then I put 4 4" lag bolts into the 2x8 by the shed attaching it to the shed so the 6' middle section is attached to the shed just for a little extra support. Then I am putting up 2x8 joists 16" on center with hangers. I used the decking screws on the 2 joists I put up so far. What's wrong with using screws vs nails for the hangers? Each one takes 6 screws/nails I believe.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Oh and my dad told me I was over killing it and I only needed 5 joists and he thought I was crazy for using bolts at all.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

nikeman said:


> Oh and my dad told me I was over killing it and I only needed 5 joists and he thought I was crazy for using bolts at all.


You're only going to get code compliment answers here (for the most part). 

Haven't you got that one figured out yet?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws-loadrated.asp#
These are the only screws rated to be used with Simpson Strong Tie hangers.
Regular screws do not have the shear strength these do.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> You're only going to get code compliment answers here (for the most part).
> 
> Haven't you got that one figured out yet?


Yep. I know that if you guys are satisfied then I'm good to go with what ever I'm building. Lol. 

Do I need to put pieces of 2x8 between each joist? Is that just to make the deck feel more solid or is that a structural thing?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Blocking helps keep the joist from twisting.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also, how do I frame the ramp? Can I use the precut stair stringers from home depot upside down? To weak?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

joecaption said:


> Blocking helps keep the joist from twisting.


When blocking do you just cut them so they are wedged tight or do you actually put screws in? Since I used some old 2x8s from my old deck a couple are pretty warped probably because the old the deck was not blocked.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Screws are never used in framing! (well not supposed to be used)
Use only ACQ approved nails.
I use 3' ring shanks for blocking.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> When blocking do you just cut them so they are wedged tight or do you actually put screws in? Since I used some old 2x8s from my old deck a couple are pretty warped probably because the old the deck was not blocked.


Bridging/blocking should be fastened to the joists. Code requires it, and even mandates exactly how many nails to use (for cross bridging, anyway). Oh, rats...there I go referencing code again. Sorry, Daniel.

Blocking does not have to be good lumber stock. Warped scrap lumber is fine.

Regarding what Joe said...never use deck screws for framing. Use common nails or structurally rated screws (e.g., Simpson SDS). However, when you compare the price of those screws to that of nails, I think you'll be eager to pick up a hammer.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I have a big box of nails in my shed but I'm not sure if they are right or not. The box says steel and wire 8 coated sinker. Its a 50lb box and says its galvanized. They are left over from when my shed was built. Are these good to use on the hangers?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

You need hanger nails for the hangers. There sold in the same area the hangers are sold.
The two long nails that go in at an angle need to be double hot dipped galvanized, not just galvanized and be ring or twisted shank.
http://www.mazenails.com/acq.php
What you have will not work.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Do they make them a little shorter since the side is only going through 1 2x?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I got some nails and hung a couple joists before the rain. There is one hanger that has the wrong nails in it that I can't get off to replace. Any tricks to removing these nails in a tight corner?

They also had 1.5" nails approved for the hangers so it was perfect.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Take the corner apart? Trivia tip; solid blocking is 66% stronger than x-bridging unless you add a 1x4 to joist bottoms (impossible in your case) then x is 167% stronger than solid blocking. Don't you feel smarter now, lol?

Gary


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Its not really in a corner just beside the center 4x4. I have the nails hammered flat to the hanger and want to replace them with the correct nails.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Gary in WA said:


> Take the corner apart? Trivia tip; solid blocking is 66% stronger than x-bridging unless you add a 1x4 to joist bottoms (impossible in your case) then x is 167% stronger than solid blocking. Don't you feel smarter now, lol?
> 
> Gary


I'm curious. Stronger in what way? Ability to resist joist rotation or load distribution?


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> Its not really in a corner just beside the center 4x4. I have the nails hammered flat to the hanger and want to replace them with the correct nails.


Never leave home without a cat's paw. A reciprocating saw is your second best friend when it comes to removing nails.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Its not really in a corner just beside the center 4x4. I have the nails hammered flat to the hanger and want to replace them with the correct nails.


just try to add some correct nails, and leave the others.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Guilty as charged, baited you for that, lol; http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2004/jun/Paper_278.pdf

Gary


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> just try to add some correct nails, and leave the others.


I ended up putting 2 of the 3.5" correct nails in where the tabs on the hangers are. The nails in that one are galvanized but they are thinner than the Simpson nails. I don't think its going anywhere once I get the decking down and all the weight is disperced over multiple joists.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i think you will be good to go, at least for a good while. one thing you have on your side = if/when it fails, it won't have far to go.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

Gary in WA said:


> Guilty as charged, baited you for that, lol;


Actually, I read that paper about two years ago, thanks to you. If you don't mind, I'll send you a private message since something about the results really puzzles me and I don't want to further hijack this thread.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Now... how do I frame the ramp? Next time I'm off I plan to put up the last 3 joists and frame the ramp so I can figure how how much decking I need and go get that over with.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also, when I do put the decking down, do I need to put 2 screws in each joist for each piece of decking? Is it every other joist maybe? I'm estimating needing 22 10' pieces of decking and am getting the cheap standard stuff from home depot. 

I'm not sure about the ramp part yet though. The lawnmower with the flap down by the grass shoot is about 50" and I obviously want to have plenty of room for error when riding up an down so I'm leaning towards 5' width.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Can some one give me an angle to cut the top of the ramp stringers at? That way I can just figure out the bottom taper.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Always 2, screws per joist in each deck board. There's never any skipping every other one.
10' X 12 = 120" divided by 5.5 = 21.81 so I'd pick up 22 boards for the decking.
Done right there should be about 1/2" over hang on all sides.
Pull a tape measure to figure out how long you need that ramp and do the math the same way. 
The ends of the joist for that ramp need to be sitting on patio blocks so there not making direct ground contact.
DO not cheap out and make the ramp to short. If it's to short it will be to steep and the mower deck will bottom out at the top of the ramp.
May want to also pick up some of these hangers for the ramps.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...81E3D63AB9E40AD7854D412D6460&selectedIndex=30


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Those look nice but not sure if I can get it on the one side since that joist is basically toughing the ground and those need to be bent underneath the joist from my understanding of what I read. 

I was thinking I could use 3 2x6 joists and put a piece of 2x4 under the joists for them to have something to rest on along with the nails in the 2x6s them selves. The angle should be 20 degrees right? Could I cut a 20 degree angle off the top of the joists and taper the bottoms to a point once cut to length? I have a miter saw so cutting the 20 degree angle would be easy to do.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I found a formula online that says the stringers need to be 1' long for every inch off the ground. So, if one side is 9" off the ground the stringers going to be 9'? That seems a little long to me. Heres the link
http://m.voices.yahoo.com/how-build-handicap-ramp-3469333.html

Edit: I just found this and it looks a lot better.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here

View attachment 76638


Attachment not working so here's the link. 
http://www.icreatables.com/images/shed-imgs/shed-ramp/shed-ramp-stringer-cut-chart-large.jpg


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Read the sticker on the ends of any 2 X.
There not direct ground contact rated.
Only 4 X 4's, 4 X 6's, 6 X 6's are.
I would go with 4, joist for that ramp, not 3.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

joecaption said:


> Read the sticker on the ends of any 2 X.
> There not direct ground contact rated.
> Only 4 X 4's, 4 X 6's, 6 X 6's are.
> I would go with 4, joist for that ramp, not 3.


I plan to use those flat solid concrete blocks under the stringers. I will level out an area with them. That or I'll use the extra bag of concrete I have and make a little platform.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The framing is done and I'm ready to put down the decking. I have tons of 2.5" Bulls Eye premium decking screws with a star head and brownish coating. Do I need to predrill every hole before I put the screws in? 16 screws per board and 22 boards makes a lot of predrilling.


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## cortell (Nov 27, 2010)

nikeman said:


> The framing is done and I'm ready to put down the decking. I have tons of 2.5" Bulls Eye premium decking screws with a star head and brownish coating. Do I need to predrill every hole before I put the screws in? 16 screws per board and 22 boards makes a lot of predrilling.


I pre-drill only at the board ends, since the wood is much more likely to split there. I'm assuming you're using wood decking and not composite. Stay at least 3/4" from the board edges, but not much further.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here's what I ended up with minus the ramp. I found out that I was not nearly as square as I thought I was after putting down the first 2 decking boards. I was keeping one side even but since it wasn't square the boards went from 1/2" overhang to over an inch within 3 boards. Lol. I just gapped a little on that side to make it look better. I also found out that I suck with a circular saw.


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