# The Stone Veneer Is Falling Off



## JulieMor

I hired some masons to install stone veneer on either side of our garage. The idea is to create two columns 33"x22"x12' high. Last week, when they laid the scratch coat, I began to have some concerns. They asked a lot of questions they should have known the answer to. I worked construction all my life. I was not comfortable with their questions.

The side they started setting the stone on was begun two days ago. I went out today to check on how it looked and I saw one stone loose. It came right off. Then I started checking other stones in that area. And several popped right off. :furious:

Yesterday I told them I thought they were mixing the mortar too dry and that they needed to butter more on so that the mortar would ooze out of the perimeter when pressing it on. I later saw them filling in the voids around the stone after it was set. More concerns.

When I took a masonry chisel to the mortar that stuck to the scratch coat (I didn't want it to bond any further) more stones came loose. When I removed the mortar from the stone pieces, some came off in full sections with only a slight tap. Where's the adhesion?

I purchased the materials according to manufacturer's specs. The guys came along and suggested mixing the mortar with portland cement and adding a bonding agent, which the MFG. spec stuff already had in it. They said in their experience the stone would bond forever. What could I say? They were supposed to be the pros.

Now I'm concerned the one side that is already grouted in might one day fall off as I have no way of checking it without possibly causing a rock fall. The stone was $1500. I don't want to lose it. The other side only had grout on the top 1/4. That's the side with the falling stone. I don't want them to come in and tell me the grout will take care of the problem but I'm thinking they might.

So my questions are, could the mortar still be in a bonding phase after two days? 

Why had that one come loose (there was space between the stone and mortar) and why did the others come off with only a _very_ light hand pull?

Is it feasible the mortar will eventually bond to the scratch coat or do I need to withhold payment until it's done right? 

Do you think the side that's already been grouted in will hold? How could I check that?

Thanks in advance,
Julie


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## JulieMor

I just went out to brush some dust off the stone. Three more pieces fell off. This was around the corner from where the other ones were falling off. We have a 8'x16' garage door that weighs 513 pounds. It creates a lot of vibration when the safety kicks in. And a bit less when the GDO starts. The vertical rails are on the same wall as the front face of the columns.

I'm worried.


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## oh'mike

Worried? I don't blame you----one of the masons will be along soon---


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## JulieMor

Fingers crossed we don't have to take it all down.


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## jomama45

Let me make sure I understand, the stone is falling off on it's own, or when you're pulling on it by hand? Or both?

I's not uncommon for the stone to be relatively loosely bonded for the first day or so, or until they're grouted, but they certainly shouldn't fall off the wall without some other outside force effecting them.........


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## cleveman

You see this kind of stone falling off everywhere. I can think of two places off the top of my head (both strip malls) and now another (apartment compex) where the stuff is falling off.

This is not the traditional use of the word "veneer". Plus it is not the traditional use of the word "stone".

Why do people install this crap anyway? I think it is more expensive than a brick veneer?

If you want a stone veneer, get some stone and do a stone veneer.


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## jomama45

cleveman said:


> You see this kind of stone falling off everywhere. I can think of two places off the top of my head (both strip malls) and now another (apartment compex) where the stuff is falling off.
> 
> This is not the traditional use of the word "veneer". Plus it is not the traditional use of the word "stone".
> 
> Why do people install this crap anyway? I think it is more expensive than a brick veneer?
> 
> If you want a stone veneer, get some stone and do a stone veneer.


I agree that a true depth stone veneer is superior, but it oftentimes costs 2-3 times what the adhered veneer costs, IF there's already a ledge in place to support it, which I doubt is the case in the OP's situation.

Regardless, I have thin adhered stone (both cultured and natural) that have been in place for 15+ years with no issues. I've seen cultured stone here from the early 70's that's still in place w/o issues as well. In the right situations, it makes fiscal sense to install it, as long as it's done properly........


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## JulieMor

The guys started off by building a temporary ledge at the bottom and then used spacers between the stones as they worked their way up. _(The manufacturer suggested doing the corner pieces first then working your way down with the flat pieces.)_ 

Yesterday morning I went out to take a look at it and noticed a piece on the bottom looked like it had separated. I literally just touched it and it fell off the wall. I lightly checked the surrounding pieces. The piece above the one that fell off was also loose and came off easily. I found a couple of others like this.

From there I tried to salvage the pieces that fell off and knocked off the mortar from the back. But on some pieces the mortar stuck to the scratch coat. Being as careful as I could, I lightly tapped from the side to loosen the mortar from the scratch coat. That was enough to loosen even more pieces.

I decided to leave it alone until I heard from the mason (still haven't). They are not coming back until Saturday to finish. So I did some cleanup. They left the area a mess. I took a mason's brush to sweep away dust and sediment off the face of the stone and three more pieces fell off at the bottom, on the face perpendicular to the face where the other stones had fallen off.

















Everything I read or saw about setting the stone to the scratch coat showed mortar oozing out from the perimeter at the back of of each stone. This picture shows what they were doing. You can see space around the perimeter between the stone and the scratch coat.


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## stadry

at least you haven't paid them :whistling2: imo, it shouldn't be easy to remove properly installed veneer even after 1 day w/o grouting having taken place :no: what's the weather like - hot, hotter, or hottest ?

you haven't yet paid them yet, right ?


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## JulieMor

itsreallyconc said:


> at least you haven't paid them :whistling2:  imo, it shouldn't be easy to remove properly installed veneer even after 1 day w/o grouting having taken place :no: what's the weather like - hot, hotter, or hottest ?
> 
> you haven't yet paid them yet, right ?


No, we haven't paid them. They aren't done yet. 

It's been in the 50's overnight and sunny in the high 60's during the day. The area where most of the stone fell off gets direct sunlight for about 4-5 hours though.


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## eharri3

I think you need to stop messing with the wall until the mason can come out. First thing I'm gonna say if I'm him is why did you go start yanking stones off my work before it was properly set and dried.


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## JulieMor

eharri3 said:


> I think you need to stop messing with the wall until the mason can come out.


I have.



eharri3 said:


> First thing I'm gonna say if I'm him is why did you go start yanking stones off my work before it was properly set and dried.


And I'm gonna say they weren't yanked off, they fell off, which the first few pieces did. And there's no way brushing dust off the stone should have caused the stone to fall off. 

Now, did vibration from the garage door create any of this? Possibly. But if they wetted the surfaces a bit, mixed the mortar a bit wetter, buttered the backs of the stone properly, and set them like I've seen commercial masons do on the jobsite, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess.


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## oh'mike

Let's see what 'itsreallyconcrete' 'Jomama' or Tscarburo has to say---those three have mortar if their veins.


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## concretemasonry

People that know it all from the book on a subject should know how to hire a contractor and should not get in the middle without any real experience.

Readers never know what the verbal instructions on the appearance were since there can be a lot of variations with adhered veneer or any veneer.

Concrete products (coatings, bedding, grout and mortar) take time to cure to reach something near the end product performance.

Julie, you have gotten into the middle so let the contractor you hired (with references, I assume) complete the job and withhold full payment to see how it performs without tearing it apart.

Dcik


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## Blondesense

First let me say I have no experience in this area whatsoever. 

I have done all of three tile projects. With each I used a notched trowel. If this were tile and I saw those horizontal lines left in the mortar, I would assume the lines were from the trowel, and think that the mortar had dried before the tile was set, causing it not to adhere properly.

I don't know if this is relevant or not.


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## jomama45

It looks like they literally "scratched" their scratchcoat, which is good.

From everything you've mentioned, I think you're on the right path. The mud was too tight, and they likely didn't use enough of it. There's typically no reason to need shims or spacers with the correct mud/mortar and application, and they should have easily been able to lay those stone from the top down.

That said, once it's grouted it will likely never be an issue in your lifetime.......


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## cleveman

Tell Hose A and Hose B not to come back and don't pay them.

I'm not even sure why they try to stagger their joints. It looks like such crap, they may as well just get stone all the same size and have a stack bond all the way up.


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## JulieMor

jomama45 said:


> It looks like they literally "scratched" their scratchcoat, which is good.
> 
> From everything you've mentioned, I think you're on the right path. The mud was too tight, and they likely didn't use enough of it. There's typically no reason to need shims or spacers with the correct mud/mortar and application, and they should have easily been able to lay those stone from the top down.
> 
> That said, once it's grouted it will likely never be an issue in your lifetime.......


They scratched the scratch coat because I handed them my scarifier and told them to do it. It was almost too late because the mortar at the bottom was almost set.

When I saw them taking a jointing tool to fill in the voids behind the pieces I thought, "This is going to take them forever." (We retired foreman types think like that. :wink Just to set the stones took them 40 hours for the two columns.

You don't see a lot of this in commercial construction, which I mostly worked in my career, but you do see a lot of masonry work. After a while you get used to how things are done. This didn't seem right from the start. They should have laid the corners first and not cut any of them, then worked top down. But they built it like it was a brick wall, starting from the bottom and fashioning up a temporary brick ledge.

The masons finally called back last night. They seemed unfazed that some stones fell off and said not to worry. They would take care of it when they come back Saturday. I don't know how to take that. If I got a call from a customer saying something I installed was falling I'd be freaking.

Thanks for your help, and especially for the reassurance the stones will hold. That some fell off wasn't much of a concern for me, outside of the doubt more would fall later.


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## Tscarborough

The stones should have be beaten apart with a hammer. If they are falling off or can be pulled off, there are issues. Did they rinse/brush the backs of the stones off? Are they using a type S and any bonding agent?

Aesthetics aside, sticking fake rock isn't rocket science.


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## JulieMor

Tscarborough said:


> The stones should have be beaten apart with a hammer. If they are falling off or can be pulled off, there are issues. Did they rinse/brush the backs of the stones off? Are they using a type S and any bonding agent?
> 
> Aesthetics aside, sticking fake rock isn't rocket science.


They took the stones, buttered them and stuck them on. Then they inserted 1/2" wood blocks in the joints. They started making the blocks with a coping saw. I gave them a small panel saw to use. When I realized they were going to place the wood blocks everywhere, I went down to my workshop and cut up about 100 or so for them.

I bought a stone veneer mortar that had a bonding agent in it. It was spec'd by the mfg. They asked for bonding agent too so I bought a couple of gallons. They also asked for portland cement. I asked them if they meant type S and they said. "No, regular portland cement. It will really bond the stones." 

You're right about this not being rocket science, almost 30 years ago I did an interior wall in our house and didn't have any problems with it and I did it a lot faster than these guys. I honestly don't think they have ever worked with veneer. They boss claimed he's done entire houses with it but he didn't do any of the work here.

So far, no more signs of falling stones. :sweatdrop:


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## Tscarborough

As a rule, I would trust a stucco guy to do adhered veneer more than a stone mason, even though the mason will have a better eye for the coursing. Adhered veneer is simply the finish coat of a 3-coat stucco system and should be treated (detailed and flashed) as such.


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## Duckweather

Have you read all the directions on the bag of mortar? It should give the set time or cure time, (or wait time). Sometimes they will give what the texture should be like when mixed, i.e. like whipped cream, or like pudding, or some like consistency. My son in law did some thin, irregular, rocks, some were large and heavy, and they wanted the scratch coat dampened. Only needed a shim on the largest. By morning next day you would need a 2 pound hammer to get them off. If these guys are working on a staging, ask them to step back and admire their work.


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## JulieMor

*Directions as per the manufacturer *(my comments in red)*:
*
*Mixing*
*Step 1.* Mixing of Veneer Stone Mortar can be accomplished in a power mixer, or by hand in a wheelbarrow, mortar box or similar container.
They mixed it in a 5-gallon bucket. I offered them my wheelbarrow and mortar hoe but they declined.
Gradually, add approximately 1 gallon of clean, potable water to the contents of this bag and mix thoroughly. If mix is too stiff, add small amounts of additional water to produce a workable mixture resembling a stiff batter. Use care to avoid a soupy mix.
*
Application*
*Step 2.*
Typically, a 1/2" base coat of Veneer Stone Mortar is applied to the wall surface and allowed to set to the veneer stone manufacturer’s recommended period of time.
They laid just enough mortar on the mesh to cover the mesh. They waited until the next day to begin setting the stones.
*Step 3.*
Apply a 1/2" inch layer of Veneer Stone Mortar to the back of each stone 
*Step 4. *
Firmly press the stone into the desired place, making sure the mortar squeezes out on all sides.
I could only find a few places where the mortar was squeezed out on the sides.

A grout bag or pointing trowel can be used to apply the mortar to the joints between stones. Avoid smearing mortar on the surface of the stones. When the mortar joints are “thumb print hard”, any desired tooling to compact the joints can be accomplished. Remove any excess from the stone before the mortar completely hardens. Use a soft bristle brush to clean the surface of the stones.
I gave them a grout bag. They tooled it right after the grout was laid.

This is the installation instructions from the stone veneer manufacturer: http://www.castnaturalstone.com/how-to-install-stone-veneer.php

I gave them instructions printed out from the website and a booklet from the manufacturer that detailed the installation.

_I'm not criticizing them or trying to nit-pik their work. And I'm being as accurate as I can in describing the actual work._


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## Tscarborough

If they needed instructions, you were paying them for OJT (on the job training). I don't hire people that need instructions.


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## JulieMor

Yeah, well what have you got to go on other than the worker's word? My SO's son-in-law recommended them, so I got that too. This is why I have done practically everything on this house. We still have lots of stone left we're going to put in another area. Guess who's doing that?


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## Duckweather

Tscarborough said:


> If they needed instructions, you were paying them for OJT (on the job training). I don't hire people that need instructions.


Good craftsmen may not need instruction when they know their trade. Sometimes they do need specs for an unfamiliar product brand. to know how to apply their knowledge. If you ask a contractor why they do something such and such a way and their answer is, "Because I have always done it this way.", Beware, they may have always done it wrong. If they say, "It is the best way I know of.", or, "There are several ways depending on what they are doing.", they should be one of your top choices.


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## Tscarborough

Specifications are a given, even for a small job. A competent contractor looks them up himself and makes sure his employees understand the process. 

One simple line in the contract deals with the whole issue, "All work to be done according to manufacturers requirements and recommendations".


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## stadry

we quote many projects to condo boards, HOA's, & condo mgmt companies,,, they could care less about specs & often buy on price which is often to their disadvantage. this year we added ' All work to be done according to respective relevant DOT specs, Fed specs, Intl Conc Repr Institute, ACI, & manufacturer's materials sheet. " Directly below that is 'We suggest you accept our proposal based on your prior experience w/our Company. We further suggest you refuse proposals from contractors who do not include a guarantee of method, material, AND a 1yr guarantee of work. " eg, w/wtrproofing, we routinely offer a 'life of the structure' guarantee.

1 can do work according to mfg'ers instructions & the job still fails because an incorrect material was chosen :yes:

also thinking of adding " Pay us now OR pay us MORE later ! ' :laughing:


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## JulieMor

The guys finished yesterday and later the boss came by to pick up the check. I talked to him about the fallen stones. He said, "Remember when I told you there should be a bonding agent in the mix?" "But that was after the scratch coat went on and the day before the stone work began. And I bought a few gallons of bonding agent for them before they started the stone work." He backed off.

And I also told him when his guys came to do the work, one of them asked for portland cement. So I bought that too, but it was after the stones that fell off were already in place. So I really don't know how much of this was the materials and how much was the methods they used. 

But I do know nowhere could I find any text, pictures or videos that didn't recommend applying enough mortar to the back of the stones that it will squeeze out from all sides of the stone when applied. There wasn't one stone in place that didn't have some voids around the back perimeter.

Anyway, as long as the stone doesn't fall off, no harm done. We both love the new look and several neighbors have complimented us on it. There's another section in front I want to do that won't require scaffolding. Let's see how _I_ do with that...


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## JulieMor

Tscarborough said:


> Specifications are a given, even for a small job. A competent contractor looks them up himself and makes sure his employees understand the process.
> 
> One simple line in the contract deals with the whole issue, "All work to be done according to manufacturers requirements and recommendations".


Before I retired, I spent about 8 years in project management and estimating. I always included that work will be done according to MFG. specs but also plans and specifications and according to code. The GCs often required it. Of course the code thing can bite back, and it sometimes did. But that's the nature of the beast.

My problem in finding competent help, even though I've worked in the trades since 1974, has been the last time I worked on a residential job was in 1986. Every job since has been commercial projects. Most of the work I needed done was either too small or out of the scope of guys working commercial jobs. And being retired takes me a step further away every day.


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## Tscarborough

Good help is hard to find, that is certain.


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