# Radio Ra 2



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I think I would call or ask customer service for Lutron.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> I think I would call or ask customer service for Lutron.


I did that's how I found about about the training course. 

--Chris


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

I would think Lutron would care if you are an electrician or not to teach you how to program something.

However, if we're talking about any of the couses I see here, then it looks more like everything is geared towards professionals and not DIY homeowners: http://www.lutron.com/cms400/default.aspx?app=lci

[Edit]
OK, a little more poking around the lutron web site found this:
http://radiora2.lutron.com/training.html

But still, it looks to all be for contractors and professionals, not homeowners.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Some reason an X-10 system could not work? How tricky are you getting with all this? Sure it is worth it?

I had an X-10 system 20 years ago that worked plugs put into sockets and replaced switches. I ran it off a clunky old DOS computer that still needed 5.25 discs. It had a little interface/controller I could program to work the home electric system---lights, sockets, toasters, etc. I could dim lights from the computer or set things to go on and off at certain times, as many times as I wanted. Control signals ran through the electric lines. You just set a letter and number code for each device as I remember. Software came with the thing. X-10 is still out there although I haven't had the need to wow the babes with lights that dim without me touching them in quite awhile. I think X-10 stuff is still inexpensive though?


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

sdsester said:


> Some reason an X-10 system could not work? How tricky are you getting with all this? Sure it is worth it?
> 
> I had an X-10 system 20 years ago that worked plugs put into sockets and replaced switches. I ran it off a clunky old DOS computer that still needed 5.25 discs. It had a little interface/controller I could program to work the home electric system---lights, sockets, toasters, etc. I could dim lights from the computer or set things to go on and off at certain times, as many times as I wanted. Control signals ran through the electric lines. You just set a letter and number code for each device as I remember. Software came with the thing. X-10 is still out there although I haven't had the need to wow the babes with lights that dim without me touching them in quite awhile. I think X-10 stuff is still inexpensive though?


I had X-10 installed a few years back and actually have some X-10 stuff *still in the box.* I do not like the clicking and bulkiness of some of the modules. Also, Lutron is pre-programmed to work with my remote control, HT and Thermostats.

Lutron's way around the software is that the system is fully "walk-around" programmable so homeowner can buy and install.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Lutron is elegant but 100 times, at least, the cost of clunky x-10 components?

X-10 comes with software an idjut can work to dim lights or even set up an alarm system?

And no offense but have you looked at the FCC assignments for radio frequency assignments lately? Sure you want your electricity controlled by a transmitted frequency? You have more faith in signal separation and ability to filter noise than I do.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf

Of course you can make no sense of the chart, neither can the FCC. 

Lutron is running off old, underused garage door frequencies? The same ones that once opened garage doors and changed channels on early remote controlled televisions? Sure the noise is gone? 

I will settle for the x-10 power line clunk. Next time I feel compelled to attract another Dr. Fluffy with dimmable, computer controlled lights.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

sdsester said:


> Lutron is elegant but 100 times, at least, the cost of clunky x-10 components?
> 
> X-10 comes with software an idjut can work to dim lights or even set up an alarm system?
> 
> ...


My nearest neighbor is 400 ft. away.


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## David911 (Jan 30, 2010)

I switched (no pun intended) from X-10 to Insteon several years ago and have never looked back. Insteon uses similar technology to X-10, but with many improvements, including a repeater in every device. The more devices you add, the more robust your system becomes. There's a wealth of devices, software and controllers available. I'm using a Universal Devices ISY99 Pro controller and am very happy. Price per device is reasonable (about $45 for a wall switch).


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

David911 said:


> I switched (no pun intended) from X-10 to Insteon several years ago and have never looked back. Insteon uses similar technology to X-10, but with many improvements, including a repeater in every device. The more devices you add, the more robust your system becomes. There's a wealth of devices, software and controllers available. I'm using a Universal Devices ISY99 Pro controller and am very happy. Price per device is reasonable (about $45 for a wall switch).


Like I said, it boils down to how much you can spend. $45 for a wall switch?


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## Zonie (Mar 9, 2010)

*PC Setup tool for Radio RA2*

I am also attempting to find the PC setup tool for radio RA2 devices. I am also working with a home automation company who took the Lutron course and has yet to receive the PC setup tool software. I have scoured the Lutron site looking for it as well as writing to the tech support people. As stupid as it may sound, Lutron is not making this available to the general public. It appears they are only supporting their dealers.
Since I have contracted a home automation company I have the flexibility to provide some of the "sweat equity" labor for the project. I will let you know if I'm able to negotiate use of the software for these lighting scenes.
_If anyone has found a low-cost supplier of the Lutron RA2 product line, please reply with contact information [URL's] that we can all use._


Regarding the commentary below on Insteon, it was actually my first choice of technologies. It actually has a mesh network which provides both a radio signal as well as a down the wire signal to the control devices. It even interfaces to stone age technology like X10. It is a much more robust approach complete with repeaters for each signal. Unfortunately, there is no interface to the home automation control software, by Savant. (If you are not familiar with Savant it is a home automation software package built on the Apple OSx Snow Leopard operating system. I recommend viewing their web site videos.) Since my integration requirements included the Savant control system, I am left with no choice but to use Lutron RA2 for my lighting devices. The Savant system has quite an elegant user interface for lighting control. You literally swipe a picture of your room and touch the light in the picture to control it. I am several months away from completing this, but that is where I'm going. I will make another post when I learn more about how to get my hands on the Lutron PC setup tool.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Zonie said:


> I am also attempting to find the PC setup tool for radio RA2 devices. I am also working with a home automation company who took the Lutron course and has yet to receive the PC setup tool software. I have scoured the Lutron site looking for it as well as writing to the tech support people. As stupid as it may sound, Lutron is not making this available to the general public. It appears they are only supporting their dealers... I will make another post when I learn more about how to get my hands on the Lutron PC setup tool.


It's rather tragic that Lutron has taken this position, today. Hopefully this will change. We are *buying* their product!!! :furious:


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## brich (Feb 25, 2010)

dawktah said:


> It's rather tragic that Lutron has taken this position, today. Hopefully this will change. We are *buying* their product!!! :furious:


Lutron has always been a pain to deal with for the customers we deal with. They consider Lutron a necessary evil. They have the product that is needed, but they will make you pay for it with time, money and frustration to get it if you are not a distributor/dealer.

I realize this may not be possible in OP's situation, but there ARE other product lines out there that can usually accomplish the same thing.

Pass & Seymour has Lightsense and Leviton has Vizia. I cannot say whether or not Leviton will take the same stance as Lutron, but I am absolutely certain Pass & Seymour will not.

And of course there are other products out there available in the market.

Sorry... I realize that may not help you. I just had to take a potshot at Lutron! :whistling2:


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Dawktah (Poster #8) As you well know (or should) that X-10 technology works with the wiring. Therefore, being 400 Ft. away from your nearest neighbor makes no difference. Everyone who taps into the same Pole Transformer can be affected. In other words, if you don't set your Unit Code or Universal Code right, you can (theoretically) "Control" your neighbors' appliances! There is a Philosophical and Moral lesson to be learned from the X-10 technology. But this is a DIY forum, not a forum on Philosophy and Religion.:yes::no:!


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

spark plug said:


> Dawktah (Poster #8) As you well know (or should) that X-10 technology works with the wiring. Therefore, being 400 Ft. away from your nearest neighbor makes no difference. Everyone who taps into the same Pole Transformer can be affected. In other words, if you don't set your Unit Code or Universal Code right, you can (theoretically) "Control" your neighbors' appliances! There is a Philosophical and Moral lesson to be learned from the X-10 technology. But this is a DIY forum, not a forum on Philosophy and Religion.:yes::no:!


I've already started putting in Lutron switches and dimmers. Lutron willingly sells to the consumer and the system can be programmed using what they call the "walk around" programming. In the early stages this will suffice since once I have a serial connection I can control the switches fine with my Philips Pronto remote. Feature I will need that software controls is the "chronos" functions or programs that are time, dusk, dawn. Main repeater has an Ethernet connection so once I have one may be able to get into device without software...:whistling2:


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## Zonie (Mar 9, 2010)

*Radio RA2 Resources*

I have been scowering the Lutron site for more programming information for RA2. As others pointed out, the 'walk around programming' is what Lutron offers the consumer. To plan a higher level of system integration requires an array of other modules like the RA Switch closure interface, the Chronos bridge and the network control interface. This interface will allow RS232 command streams. (there are programming manuals that detail this) 
One additional options for those with questions about the RA design of your system. >>http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?id=8009&mn=1467 and the free phone support (to plan) "Contact the RadioRA toll-free hotline at 1.877.610.7410 for personal assistance in choosing and designing your own RadioRA system." Just FYI. More to follow ....


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Zonie said:


> I have been scowering the Lutron site for more programming information for RA2. As others pointed out, the 'walk around programming' is what Lutron offers the consumer. To plan a higher level of system integration requires an array of other modules like the RA Switch closure interface, the Chronos bridge and the network control interface. This interface will allow RS232 command streams. (there are programming manuals that detail this)
> One additional options for those with questions about the RA design of your system. >>http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?id=8009&mn=1467 and the free phone support (to plan) "Contact the RadioRA toll-free hotline at 1.877.610.7410 for personal assistance in choosing and designing your own RadioRA system." Just FYI. More to follow ....


Actually, Radio RA requires the chronos module the new Radio RA2 is something totally different, the chronos feature is contained within the main module. Switch closure is also contained in the Garage Remote Module. Its been ultra-simplified compared to Radio RA.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*advantages of Lutron vs. other automation systems.*



dawktah said:


> I've already started putting in Lutron switches and dimmers. Lutron willingly sells to the consumer and the system can be programmed using what they call the "walk around" programming. In the early stages this will suffice since once I have a serial connection I can control the switches fine with my Philips Pronto remote. Feature I will need that software controls is the "chronos" functions or programs that are time, dusk, dawn. Main repeater has an Ethernet connection so once I have one may be able to get into device without software...:whistling2:


The main advantage with the Lutron setup is, that it is modular. As opposed to some Home automation systems that are "All or Nothing". My familiarity with the Lutron system comes (Mostly) from reading about their products in a trade magazine that I'm subscribed to. But the X-10 technology is not obsolete, either. Not by a long shot. It is still a major player in home and industrial automation. It has a lot of room for creativity, if the principles of its operation are fully understood.:yes:!


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## Zonie (Mar 9, 2010)

*Programming Radio RA2*

To All:
regarding some of the questions about obtaining the PC setup tool for programming the radio RA2 devices:
1) dealers and resellers to take their training course in order to make the software available.
2) the course is not given online, but rather in their Pennsylvania offices. The course costs $600.
3) the programming tool is not a trivial piece of scripting software that merely generates RS-232 commands. Rather, it is 425 MB in size and also installs a SQL 2005 server database. This is used to manage all the lighting scene commands from your home network. So as you can imagine, this is not a piece of free software that Lutron wants to give to do-it-yourselfers.
4) it is clear from Lutron's business model that resellers must add value to the product, and hence using this software is one way for them to do that.

There is however a clear clause in their software agreement which allows the dealer to leave a copy of the software on a customer's PC when it is used to control their lighting scenes. The following is an excerpt from their license agreement: "The End User [dealer] may transfer all of its rights under this License Agreement, along with the Software and the server, if any, on which the Software is installed to the purchaser of the real estate to which the lighting control system is affixed, provided that the other party agrees to be bound by the terms and conditions of this License Agreement." 
So, my recommendation to anyone with a large project is to engage with a Lutron dealer and work out a mutual arrangement. In my case, I am working with a home automation company who currently has too much work and will allow me to install the switches and do the programming. In my particular case, the home control system is Savant. You can look at their lighting user interface from the following URL: [ http://www.savantav.com/gallery/videoalbums.aspx ]

One additional note, has anyone seen the new direct dimmer switch from Lutron called the Vierti? [ http://www.lutron.com/ltr4/home.asp ] I have called the support hotline and found that it does not currently support radio RA2. When I asked tech support when it would, they told me it was not their first priority! So I started to write them in order to encourage them to change their priorities! You may want to do the same thing.

Hope your projects are successful! :thumbsup:
Cheers
Jetson


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Zonie (Poster #19) I read it slightly different. (I haven't read the entire agreement between Lutron and the dealers, because you haven't provided it. and it's probably irrelevant, anyway.) The BOLD lettering that you cite in the Second paragraph elaborates on the legality of transferring the rights to the program from the consumer ("End User") to the (NEW) Purchaser of the Real Estate. (New Tenant) A Dealer or Reseller is NEVER considered the END USER! The end User is (by definition) always the Consumer!!!:yes:!


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Zonie said:


> To All:
> 
> 2) the course is not given online, but rather in their Pennsylvania offices. The course costs $600.
> 
> ...


OK, why doesn't the rep call me back? I have no issues with going to Pennsylvania for this course...??? However I checked their site and they just had a course in Ohio. After I added up the cost of the switches I will be putting in $600 is a drop in the bucket. There is more to this...mainly the main repeater as far as I know *does not* require a PC being connected to run its functions. The software is of a programming nature not control.


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## mjmedlo (Mar 15, 2010)

*Ra2 DIY*

Anyone having any luck getting the software?
The screenshots look pretty easy to figure out. . .
I am going to do a Ra2 system I think. . the other option
is crestron prodigy. . .I'm waiting on my bid from them.
MJM


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## NwAvGuy (Apr 6, 2010)

*Lutron RadioRA 2*

I too am interested in RadioRA 2 and would like to address some of the comments made in this thread:

First of all, for those who are not aware, RadioRA which has been around since 2001 or so, is widely considered THE most reliable lighting automation system that works with existing (retrofit) wiring. The systems have been widely sold and have a reputation for being bulletproof.

Second, while Insteon is a big improvement over X10 (which is ancient and famously unreliable) the products have been plagued with numerous quality problems and other glitches. Some have experienced a 50% or higher failure rate of their Insteon switches, dimmers and other hardware. The "color" and brightness of the white LEDs they use keeps changing so if you put multiple Insteon switches ganged together in the same plate, they don't match, and you can *only* get them from Smarthome so you're completely at their mercy with respect to pricing, support, quality, etc. It's a cheap product designed to a price point and it shows. They do, however, have a wide selection of switches, devices, etc.

From when Insteon was introduced around 2004 it's been touted as a powerline AND RF system. But in six years, they've only released a couple of devices that actually use RF. 99% of what everyone uses is still powerline ONLY. So they're not delivering on their original promise and their marketing is very misleading.

There are two other technologies competing in the same marketplace as RadioRA 2 and Insteon: UPB and Z-Wave. UPB is basically a higher quality version of Insteon offered by multiple manufactures. It has a relatively small market share but a loyal following. It uses a more robust form of powerline communication.

Z-Wave is an RF technology supported by a relatively large group of manufactures, including huge players like Leviton and Cooper, but has technical issues--especially with respect to interoperability between brands. It's not as DIY friendly as Insteon or UPB. You can't, for example, just move a plug in controller without risking screwing up the entire network. It's techinically more complex so it's supported by fewer DIY home automation software vendors. Many have reported various technical problems trying to get bigger installations to work correctly--especially if you mix brands.

Zwave, UPB and RadioRA 2 are all in the same price range if you look at high quality components. They're all around $60 - $100 per switch/dimmer price range (street prices). That may seem really high to some people, but it's still cheaper than all non-DIY systems. And, given the high failure rate of Insteon, if you have to replace their $45 dimmer even once (as many have), you've spent $90. So why not put in a high quality one in the first place?

*My summary is this:*

*X10* - Virtually nobody anymore puts in X10 from scratch (for a new system). It's 20 year old technology and it shows. Yeah, it has its fans, but most of them are left over from when X10 was the only DIY option.

*Insteon* - Very cheaply made, only sold by Smarthome, well documented problems but an improvement over X10. It's probably the most DIY friendly system that uses viable technology. But low quality and problems make it a bad choice for serious installs--especially if you plan to own the house for a while.

*UPB* - A higher quality version of Insteon from multiple manufactures. Also DIY friendly. More expensive than Insteon, but likely worth it if you're serious about home automation and plan to keep the house more than a few years.

*Z-Wave* - Lots of diversity and devices, RF control is generally considered superior to power line control, but has its own issues--especially with interoperability and DIY. Priced similar to UPB.

*Lutron RadioRA 2* - A new version of a very well proven system. Probably the highest quality and most reliable, by far, of anything I've discussed here. About the same cost as high quality UPB or Z-Wave devices. The downside is it's not at all DIY friendly if you want PC control and they only have a limited number of devices oriented mainly towards incandescent lighting (no switched outlets, appliance modules, etc.). 

Personally, if you want mainly lighting control, and want it to just WORK for many years to come, I think RadioRA 2 is likely the best choice. But Lutron's lack of a DIY-friendly PC interface is a serious problem. My hope is Lutron will both open up, and expand RadioRA 2 in the future. But time will tell.

In the meantime, if anyone has further info on DIY control of RadioRA 2, please let us all know?


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks this is very useful!!! The key to the whole Radio Ra 2 is the main repeater and PC access to it. I will keep you informed.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

sdsester said:


> Lutron is elegant but 100 times, at least, the cost of clunky x-10 components?


It's not remotely close to 100 times X-10. X-10 is unreliable. Lighting is mission critical, any automated lighting control that doesn't work 100% of the time is a downgrade from a mechanical switch.



> And no offense but have you looked at the FCC assignments for radio frequency assignments lately? Sure you want your electricity controlled by a transmitted frequency? You have more faith in signal separation and ability to filter noise than I do.
> 
> 
> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf
> ...


Have you read the white papers on why Lutron using that "old underused garage door frequency"?

A) No frequency is older or younger than another frequency

B) The "garage door" frequency is uncluttered. Devices operating in this frequency range are low power and can only "burst" transmissions for a short period. Continual transmissions is not allowed in this band. RadioRa2 doesn't have to compete with other high power continuous broadcasting devices like wireless routers, cellphones, cordless phones ect. Lutron's clearconnect RF is 100% reliable and doesn't with no delay and no "popcorn" effect lighting you see with mesh network lighting control devices.

C) Lutrons specs for range are absolute worst case scenerio. In reality the ranges in normal residential construction are considerably larger than the specs



> I will settle for the x-10 power line clunk. Next time I feel compelled to attract another Dr. Fluffy with dimmable, computer controlled lights.


X-10 is junk. It's cheap and thats about the only thing going for it.



Zonie said:


> I have been scowering the Lutron site for more programming information for RA2. As others pointed out, the 'walk around programming' is what Lutron offers the consumer. To plan a higher level of system integration requires an array of other modules like the RA Switch closure interface, the Chronos bridge and the network control interface. This interface will allow RS232 command streams. (there are programming manuals that detail this)
> One additional options for those with questions about the RA design of your system. >>http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?id=8009&mn=1467 and the free phone support (to plan) "Contact the RadioRA toll-free hotline at 1.877.610.7410 for personal assistance in choosing and designing your own RadioRA system." Just FYI. More to follow ....


RA2 does not require the chronos bridge, network control interface or RS232 interface. That is all RA1 equipment.

The RA2 main repeater has all those features incorporated directly into the repeater. A RA2 repeater costs around $400 vs RA1 with the same features costing upwards of $2000 for the same features.



dawktah said:


> It's rather tragic that Lutron has taken this position, today. Hopefully this will change. We are *buying* their product!!! :furious:


 
Lutron has taken this position because the certified Lutron installer is the point of support for the system. Lutron provided "aerobic" programming for end users who do not purchase from a certified installer. 

It actually takes very little time to program a Lutron system with the software if you know what you are doing. We include programming and installation as part of the cost of each device and still sell at below MSRP.

Programming starts to cost more if the homeowner wants integration with 3rd party controllers.



David911 said:


> I switched (no pun intended) from X-10 to Insteon several years ago and have never looked back. Insteon uses similar technology to X-10, but with many improvements, including a repeater in every device. The more devices you add, the more robust your system becomes.


This is a myth of mesh network topology. It adds "hops" (additional points of failure). It increases noise (each device is shouting) and leads to the popcorn effect in lighting with some of the manufacturers devices.



> There's a wealth of devices, software and controllers available. I'm using a Universal Devices ISY99 Pro controller and am very happy. Price per device is reasonable (about $45 for a wall switch).


NwAVGuy and Zonie are providing the correct information.

If you are purchasing your RA equipment from an installer they can provide you with the software at the conclusion of the job.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

So Fiasco, what is your relationship with Lutron? :whistling2:


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> So Fiasco, what is your relationship with Lutron? :whistling2:


I'm a Lutron certified sparky and have a RA2 system in my home. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaejslEb-fE

Doesn't change the fact that RadioRa is the defacto industry standard in reliability, aesthetics and quality.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Fiasco said:


> I'm a Lutron certified sparky and have a RA2 system in my home.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaejslEb-fE
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that RadioRa is the defacto industry standard in reliability, aesthetics and quality.


There is still a problem. You* cannot* buy the components at a Lowe's, Home Depot, Menard's type of store so I still don't understand the forced "walk around" What kind of "point of support" is going on?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

dawktah said:


> There is still a problem. You* cannot* buy the components at a Lowe's, Home Depot, Menard's type of store so I still don't understand the forced "walk around" What kind of "point of support" is going on?


IMO that fact that it is not available at those places makes it more likely to be a quality item. 75% of what you get form those places is crap!
Just because a big box store does not have something does not mean it is less "available".

Jeeze, how did we Americans get SO lazy!


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> IMO that fact that it is not available at those places makes it more likely to be a quality item. 75% of what you get form those places is crap!
> Just because a big box store does not have something does not mean it is less "available".
> 
> Jeeze, how did we Americans get SO lazy!


Lutron does sell some stuff at box stores. Dimmers, switches, ox sensor switches, 3 way electronic dimmers and IR remote switches.

Americans did get lazy.

My house isn't really nice because I could afford to pay someone to make it that way. I did everything. Hardwood floors, Oak staircase, cabinetry, faux paint finishes, 600 sq ft ceder deck w/ pergolas, Kitchen remodel, additonal lighting circuits and a full gut and remodel (including under foundation plumbing for a bathroom) of the basement.

How many people that you know pay someone hundereds of dollars to do brake job on their vehicle. Really? It's not even drums, you got 4 discs and need $20 worth of tools tops!

Although, I'm still torn on which kind of lazy is worse. Too lazy to do anything or too lazy to find out how to do something correctly.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok! What's this on Lutron page saying Radio Ra 2 can be controlled by the iPhone or the iPad??? :furious: Are they trying to say all you need to do is download an "app" for that?


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

dawktah said:


> Ok! What's this on Lutron page saying Radio Ra 2 can be controlled by the iPhone or the iPad??? :furious: Are they trying to say all you need to do is download an "app" for that?


Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duxs7raKN0w&sns=em


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Fiasco said:


> Like this?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duxs7raKN0w&sns=em


Still can you program the system with just this app or does it need to be programmed by Lutron Software first? If not I can do the same thing with my Pronto remote.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/jagllc#p/a/u/0/QaejslEb-fE

Same remote interface on my iPad, just a few weeks further into development.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

dawktah said:


> Still can you program the system with just this app or does it need to be programmed by Lutron Software first? If not I can do the same thing with my Pronto remote.


If you have a RA repeater try telneting into it and using the default login. I'm lutron homeworks and ra level 2 certified so I have never tried to interface with a RA repeater without having programmed it first.


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

I am Ra2 certified as well as a home automation / home theater control sysem specialist. 

There is a crude way of programming RA2 with the walkaround method. It is fine for smaller systems but can be tedious for larger systems. It will give your system some structure so that the RA2 app will be able to turn things on and off as well as fade and brighten. HOWEVER, the following attributes of RA2 will not be applicable:

- Keypad scenes
- Time based events
- Vacation schedules, timers
- Green button (reduce energy throughout the home by a fixed %)
- Other scene and "macro" options

The software is proprietary and dealer only ( I know that DIY do not like to hear that, but I don't make the rules ). In order to enjoy the full potential of Ra2 it is best you consult a well trained specialist to set up your system in a way you will realize the full benefit of Ra2. Even the design process can be annoying, but a dealer will do that as well. 

Last, Lutron will not let the average consumer complete the training. They may allow a designer or enthusiast to take an introductory course, but it will not cover the programming and in my opinion is more of a sales pitch than anything else. I have sent designers and contracters to it and they have been less than happy with what they take away from the one day course. Lutron offers BLAST training for Level 1 and Level II for advanced certification (Lighting & Shade Control) with inclusive verson of software which allows two main repeaters and 200 devices. 

Lutron takes these policies very seriously and it is difficult to climb from one level to the next unless you are selling these systems and doing well with them. I don't mean to belittle X10, but this is very unreliable and buggy techology. Lutron uses ClearConnect proprietary radio frequency and is amazingly bulletproof and seamless. In addition, it can be integrated into third party systems like Crestron, RTI, URC, AMX and other systems that I usually provide services for and works wonderfully. 

Regards,
Vincent
Total Control Remotes
www.totalcontrolremotes.com


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Still bogus, some people exceed others in their knowledge. I'm sure I can walk into a course and be far ahead of people coming out of a course.

Greed based if your ask me.

Sent from my Samsung Vibrant using Android DIY Chatroom


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

ChrisDIY said:


> Still bogus, some people exceed others in their knowledge. I'm sure I can walk into a course and be far ahead of people coming out of a course.
> 
> Greed based if your ask me.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Vibrant using Android DIY Chatroom


Not bogus at all. Lutron lighting systems aren't targeted at a DIY market. Lutron invests heavily in training and certification programs because the installer is the point of contact for programming and technical support, not Lutron.

If Lutron handed out the software and amazoned the system components distributors and contractors wouldn't carry their product lines. 

DIY'ers in all likelihood lack knowledge and training in other critical areas necessary for a reliable correct install. The last thing Lutron wants is a bunch of DIY'ers blasting their product because their overloaded components burn up because they don't know about derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues.


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

*Radio Ra2*

Wow, Fiasco might have put everything in my head into words and responded before me. All things considered, this is not an act of greed, this is just called product control. Millions and Millions of dollars were invested in the Clear Connect patented technology that you simply will never see anything that even resembles it. I'ts that good. In order to protect the best interests, marketability, and reputation of the product Lutron installs all the product control to insure that the product is always delivered and installed/programmed by trained professionals. This is NOT some conspiracy theory that says DIYer are not smart enough to use it properly or install. In fact, Lutron wishes it could sell the product in Home Depot or Lowes because sales would be probably 60-80% better, so it's probably the opposite of green and good old product control - notice that product control always exists where there is technology that is clearly heads and tails better than the competition - Crestron, AMX, Even Cooper Aspire lighting require trained and certified professionals.






Fiasco said:


> Not bogus at all. Lutron lighting systems aren't targeted at a DIY market. Lutron invests heavily in training and certification programs because the installer is the point of contact for programming and technical support, not Lutron.
> 
> If Lutron handed out the software and amazoned the system components distributors and contractors wouldn't carry their product lines.
> 
> DIY'ers in all likelihood lack knowledge and training in other critical areas necessary for a reliable correct install. The last thing Lutron wants is a bunch of DIY'ers blasting their product because their overloaded components burn up because they don't know about derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks TC.

Anyone with experience with X10 or some of the lesser UPB systems and product controlled lines from Lutron, AMX, Vantage or Crestron know the considerable quality difference between those and a DIY quality system.

I'm never going to sell an X10 system even if I could make more money up front because I know I'll get killed on the backend with service calls.



totalcontrol said:


> Wow, Fiasco might have put everything in my head into words and responded before me. All things considered, this is not an act of greed, this is just called product control. Millions and Millions of dollars were invested in the Clear Connect patented technology that you simply will never see anything that even resembles it. I'ts that good. In order to protect the best interests, marketability, and reputation of the product Lutron installs all the product control to insure that the product is always delivered and installed/programmed by trained professionals. This is NOT some conspiracy theory that says DIYer are not smart enough to use it properly or install. In fact, Lutron wishes it could sell the product in Home Depot or Lowes because sales would be probably 60-80% better, so it's probably the opposite of green and good old product control - notice that product control always exists where there is technology that is clearly heads and tails better than the competition - Crestron, AMX, Even Cooper Aspire lighting require trained and certified professionals.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

On another note TC, are you doing any custom iPad remotes?


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

Fiasco said:


> On another note TC, are you doing any custom iPad remotes?


 
Fiasco - 

Yes, absolutely! Besides Crestron Prodigy, as a standalone ipad/iphone control platform I am using Bitwise Controls. Speaking of RadioRa2, they just came out with two way control which works great with it. There are a handful of companies in my opinion that offer superior control and hardware. (Since I am a Bitwise dealer I prefer not to advertise the others ) 

Clients have complete control of their homes, home theater, and audio/video. Works great in commercial applications as well. How about yourself?


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

totalcontrol said:


> Fiasco -
> 
> Yes, absolutely! Besides Crestron Prodigy, as a standalone ipad/iphone control platform I am using Bitwise Controls. Speaking of RadioRa2, they just came out with two way control which works great with it. There are a handful of companies in my opinion that offer superior control and hardware. (Since I am a Bitwise dealer I prefer not to advertise the others )
> 
> Clients have complete control of their homes, home theater, and audio/video. Works great in commercial applications as well. How about yourself?


I'm a unabashed CommandFusion supporter. Usually using Moxa or GlobalCache serial to IP converters. (avoiding IR if at all possible) Although, CommandFusion unveiled their own IP hardware at Cedia last week.

These videos remind me I need to upload some more recent work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWLzOica0nI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaejslEb-fE


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Fiasco said:


> Not bogus at all. Lutron lighting systems aren't targeted at a DIY market. Lutron invests heavily in training and certification programs because the installer is the point of contact for programming and technical support, not Lutron.
> 
> If Lutron handed out the software and amazoned the system components distributors and contractors wouldn't carry their product lines.
> 
> DIY'ers in all likelihood lack knowledge and training in other critical areas necessary for a reliable correct install. The last thing Lutron wants is a bunch of DIY'ers blasting their product because their overloaded components burn up because they don't know about derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues.


I disagree, I can do these things but I am not "in the bussiness" to sell products to anyone. The training is not free, I do not see why if I am willing to pay for the training why I am denied the opportunity. If they are willing to sell me the products for a "walk around" install that covers derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues. The SOFTWARE cannot create any of these issues!!! :furious:


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

ChrisDIY said:


> I disagree, I can do these things but I am not "in the bussiness" to sell products to anyone. The training is not free, I do not see why if I am willing to pay for the training why I am denied the opportunity. If they are willing to sell me the products for a "walk around" install that covers derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues. The SOFTWARE cannot create any of these issues!!! :furious:


 
Already wrong and you didnt even start the work Chris! The software has many checks and balances to insure you are using the right swtich/dimmer with the application. You have to input the fixture amount, load, and depending on the gang or application it may or may not allow you to put it in. You see if something is not right the software will not allow you to specify it. Of course there are a lot of great customer service people at Lutron who could reccomend one of the many tested drivers if you have an LED application or something like that. The software does a great job of insuring your spec is safe and sound. 

I am sorry you feel this way about the policy of the company, but is certainly not the first and won't be the last to install such policy. By the way, the Lutron Primary dealer program is very extensive and focuses on a lot of the regulating and hazard issues to insure that the system is done in the best way possible. Of course, only a licensed electrician should be touching high voltage wires anyway, regardless of the installation.


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

Fiasco said:


> I'm a unabashed CommandFusion supporter. Usually using Moxa or GlobalCache serial to IP converters. (avoiding IR if at all possible) Although, CommandFusion unveiled their own IP hardware at Cedia last week.
> 
> These videos remind me I need to upload some more recent work.
> 
> ...


CF is certainly one of the better applications out there as well. Getting good equipment will do wonders. A lot of the software has evolved way too much for the hardware out there. I agree that more powerful and better processors are needed desperately.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

ChrisDIY said:


> I disagree, I can do these things but I am not "in the bussiness" to sell products to anyone. The training is not free, I do not see why if I am willing to pay for the training why I am denied the opportunity. If they are willing to sell me the products for a "walk around" install that covers derating, transformer loss, led or any other potential electrical issues. The SOFTWARE cannot create any of these issues!!! :furious:


And you or someone else would promptly upload the software to the Internet for distribution to anyone that could click a download link because you have no vested interest in protecting your time or financial investment in carrying and supporting these systems.


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

Btw chris,

Did you even price system programming?

How many keypads do you have?

Do you know how to set up a VPN. I would be happy to remotely program your system.


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

Let's be honest - the only reason why Lutron charges money to attend these classes because they want to make sure the parties who attend the trainings are not only qualified, but commited to the product. It's quite easy to get lost in the economics and policies of it, but it is a fantastic lighting system with many beneficial environmental aspects. 100% of my customers report a much greater sense of efficiency and energy costs. 

However, there are plenty of DIY systems out there that can be implemented at a fraction of the price with obvious less features and reliability. These systems are still a great way to provide efficiency and features you would have otherwise not had at all. In the future lighting will be automated and smarter; as well as many other aspects of energy and consumption.


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## D5T_Designs (May 20, 2011)

First off, I only registered on this forum to reply to this topic. I came across it while browsing for some integration questions I was looking for answers to.

So here's my stance on this situation.

I'm 25, I currently have at least 13 years in the electrical field (my father's an electrician and I stated pulling rope at the age of 12). 5 of which were with the worlds largest electrical and datacom wholesaler; Rexel Inc. in the Truckee/Lake Tahoe region of Ca, where I received countless training on this subject. I've worked with home automation companies, small guys(1 or 2 man electrical operations), designers and homeowners in a multibillion dollar locale. I am not a licensed electrician but could be if I cared to, I have the man hours and the knowledge. 

Now to get on where Lutron stands, I'm certified in Homeworks, shades, as well as Radio Ra2. I was lucky enough to be certified with Lutron's products because I was the branches lighting and controls expert. I would think this wasn't an opportunity that even a very few have. While working with Lutron over the course of my employment with Rexel, I will agree, they can be a pain in the ass, sometimes the electricians and contractors know more than some of the people at lutron do, but their main stance is to protect their image. They don't want people running amuck installing and programming systems on a rouge status because they would like the general public that chooses to use their product extremely happy with the end result. If just any average joe (no offense) were to go about and do this, in Lutron's eyes hell would freeze over. 

They say that nearly every end user that is dissatisfied with their Lutron lighting system is related to a poor programmer. For that fact, they're just trying to keep a good name, and make sure people are happy with their product. 

Don't get me wrong though, I've had my conflicts with the company, some of their rules in keeping your certification are bs, but sometimes needed, they cant bend the rules for one, otherwise they would need to be bent for everyone. I had my top customer, who spent millions with me yearly, a lot that was on Lutron products, turned down for a re-certification because of a conflict with the local rep. He claimed there were too many certified contractors in the area and it was causing conflict, plus the rep was and is still in bed with a certain contractor who will remain unnamed. 

Now take your situation and put it up to my customers, who can no longer make his money on Lutron automation without subbing out and losing a good percentage of his cut, which also takes toll on his employees paychecks. 

Fiasco and totalcontrol have pretty much stated a lot of what I have to say, but I feel that it helps when it's not just one person that you hear it from. Yes it's unfortunate that this is the way of Lutron. But when you look at it from the big picture, this is some peoples livelihoods, and hopefully these people are good at what they do to insure the name of Lutron as well as their own.

Another way to look at it is pirating...you want an app for you iphone or android right, it costs you 5.99 but you don't want to pay that so you download it from some pirating site...you not only got the software illegally but you just robbed the developer of funds they need to improve on it or make the next best thing. Technology comes with a price, a price that means you have to donate to ensure the next best thing.

The "walkaround" is barbaric at most, yes you can accomplish a lot with it, but to get the full extent and best possible outcome of your system the software is necessary. Lutron has done a lot to protect the software for the newer Homeworks and RadioRa 2, you have to continually update your software to work with the most recent hardware you get. Nothing like the old days of Homeworks. IE you get a repeater a few months after your last software update, it may not even connect, one reason of this is because they want to make sure that your up on your learning, or if you've lost your cert for whatever reason, that you get denied the right to program.

If I were in your shoes, I would make friends with a certified contractor or electrician, make a deal to program your system. You paid for his or her services, in turn they should be able to offer you the software. I understand your frustration, but this is the way that Lutron as well as many other companies do business. Or take up Fiasco on his offer to do it remotely, he seems like a nice fellow that's willing to help you out. 

On a side note.....x10=sh*t, and it will always be sh*t, its basically a rotary phone compared to today's cellphones. Especially since their recent product releases don't jive well when adding or replacing to an existing system.

Vizia+(standard vizia is outdated now I believe) is a decent alternative to Lutron (I've had my hands involved with their product, it's not anywhere close to the sheer awesomeness of Lutron's products) Leviton also has great product support for the DIY'er unlike Lutron

Control4 is decent from what I've heard

Crestron is another great product like Homeworks or RadioRa

All in all though, I'm a Lutron guy, tried and true there's nothing more beautiful than a house with Lutron in it. I'm one of the only people I know that has a grafikEye in his garage to control his lighting. Don't jump my case because you dislike what I've said, I know my stuff, I may be young, but I'm very well versed in electrical, automation, computers, and the politics that arise in these categories.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

D5T_Designs said:


> First off, I only registered on this forum to reply to this topic. I came across it while browsing for some integration questions I was looking for answers to.
> 
> So here's my stance on this situation...
> 
> ...All in all though, I'm a Lutron guy, tried and true there's nothing more beautiful than a house with Lutron in it. I'm one of the only people I know that has a grafikEye in his garage to control his lighting. Don't jump my case because you dislike what I've said, I know my stuff, I may be young, but I'm very well versed in electrical, automation, computers, and the politics that arise in these categories.


Thanks for the long and detailed reply. My local source for switches is no longer carrying their products due to a "conflict of interest." I can still order since I began before this happened. I have had a chance to view the software, it's not "the end all be all" that you guys are making it out to be. Crestron, now that's something "end all be all!" :laughing:

If you follow my project showcase I am doing pretty much one or two rooms at time. Installing switches, Lutron or Lutron Radio Ra2 *as I go*. If I were purchasing a system all at once and wanted it to function the day I open my garage door... then sure. Been using computers since '83 so yes I can set up a VPN, but I'll pass.

As you mentioned it's a piracy concern of Lutron's nothing else...

If I were in their IT department I wouldn't make software a downloadable executable packet problem solved...:laughing:


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

Ra is very simple compared to Homeworks QS. No conditional logic.

I don't particulary care for the Ra software or the QS software (I liked the software for Homeworks P5/P8 processors better as it takes three times as long to do something in QS software as it did in HW).



ChrisDIY said:


> Thanks for the long and detailed reply. My local source for switches is no longer carrying their products due to a "conflict of interest." I can still order since I began before this happened. I have had a chance to view the software, it's not "the end all be all" that you guys are making it out to be. Crestron, now that's something "end all be all!" :laughing:
> 
> If you follow my project showcase I am doing pretty much one or two rooms at time. Installing switches, Lutron or Lutron Radio Ra2 *as I go*. If I were purchasing a system all at once and wanted it to function the day I open my garage door... then sure. Been using computers since '83 so yes I can set up a VPN, but I'll pass.
> 
> ...


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## sagolas (May 31, 2011)

Hello,
I am interested in getting a wireless home automation system, 
I know the three big options i have are Radio Ra2 , control 4 and creston prodigy. 
The main concern I have is that the system will be reliable and then of course the price is always the issue.

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## totalcontrol (May 17, 2011)

sagolas said:


> Hello,
> I am interested in getting a wireless home automation system,
> I know the three big options i have are Radio Ra2 , control 4 and creston prodigy.
> The main concern I have is that the system will be reliable and then of course the price is always the issue.
> ...


 
Hello, hope you are well. While you do mention some great control options it would probably be a mistake to go with Crestron and C4 based solely on lighting control. Personally, I think if you do not need a control system as well in place and are looking strctly for lighting control Radio Ra2 is a fantastic option. Another thing that makes Ra2 a versatile option is that it integrates well with most if not all control systems. I have integrated Ra2 with RTI, Crestron, URC and iPad/iPhone solutions and all the speed and reliability have not been compromised. 

It is important to remember that Lutron is a lighting comany. That means that if you have a driver issue or a lighting fixture that is unorthodox or less popular than most Lutron probably has a product or at least an answer to it. They do a lot of field tests with different LED, ballasts and other fixtures and power supplies that work well with their lights. That being said, the new thermostat control options are fantastic and shading options are second to none. 

I would probably need more information before reccomending a system based on your needs and current situation, but if you are just seeking a lighting system Ra2 will probably give you everything you want and is the most economical.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok, on a RRD-6D how do you get the default light level to stay? If I set the dimmer half way up then turn light off it goes 3/4 of the way up when turned back on. If I double click it goes full bright, turn it off and back on it goes to the 3/4 mark. Is this something controlled by the software or do you have to go into the switch and manually program this?


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## Fiasco (Jul 6, 2010)

ChrisDIY said:


> Ok, on a RRD-6D how do you get the default light level to stay? If I set the dimmer half way up then turn light off it goes 3/4 of the way up when turned back on. If I double click it goes full bright, turn it off and back on it goes to the 3/4 mark. Is this something controlled by the software or do you have to go into the switch and manually program this?


Single tap returns to the last manually set level


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Fiasco said:


> Single tap returns to the last manually set level


If it doesn't is switch defective? I have two that don't


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Nevermind, I got somebody to fix it.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks!


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## pbutler (Aug 13, 2011)

How can I contact you to see if you can help me program an RadioRA 2 system?


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