# Fence Posts - Sonotubes?



## concretemasonry

One advantage of the sonotube is that you use a minimum amount of concrete, especially in certain types of soil where over-excavation is common. If you have a strung-out job, you certainly do not want to haul out too much material and want to backfill with what is there.

In areas where there is frost, the smooth forms definetly resist the uplift from the surrounding surface frost since there is some "slip" that does not occur with the rough dug surface.

Keep the top of the concrete above ground level.

You can leave the forms on - you will never be able to pull them out. You can cut them off below grade if you prefer to see the concrete instead of the forms.


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## AaronBerquist

Thanks for that info - glad to hear I'm on the right track...

For a 6x6 post what's the recommeded hole diameter? What size sonotube is recommended?


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## SecretSquirrel

> For a 6x6 post what's the recommeded hole diameter? What size sonotube is recommended?


Using that Pythagorean guy's theorum, the corner to corner distance on a post with 5 1/2" nominal sides would be 7 3/4" (7.778 actually). To achieve at least 2" of concrete from the post corner to the side of the Sonotube would require a 12" diameter tube. Whether that is suitable or not is up for discussion.


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## dmaceld

How tall a fence are you building? 6 x 6 sunk 3.5' into the ground is awfully hefty for an ordinary fence. I replaced rotted posts in my fence in Louisiana with 4 x 6 posts sunk 2' into the ground w/ 5' above and no concrete. The 6" dimension was in line with the fence to provide maximum stability lateral to the fence. Depending on how your fence is designed, it can be very solid by itself in the fence line direction. If your soil packs solid you can tamp the dirt back around the post and not use concrete. All the concrete really does is gives a larger cross section against the soil to resist pushing over. IMO, the only time you really need concrete is with small metal posts, or maybe with 4 x 4 in sandy soil. Unless you have football player sized kids slamming against the fence, or 100 mph winds blowing on it, you will get plenty of lateral stability with 6" wide surface. I don't think the concrete buys much additional rot resistance over the PT. You will still get some water between the concrete and wood even with the top sloped, and the ground level is where most rot occurs.

Just my thoughts. I'm even thinking building my next fence with 2 x 6's for posts!  Think about all the farm fences holding back cattle with bare posts in the ground. Cattle are not gentle on fence posts.


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## AaronBerquist

The fence will be 7 feet tall - 6 feet of boards + 1 foot of lattice. The guy drilling the holes is using a 10" auger which should yield a 12" hole. So I'll go with a 12" sonotube. Man this is going to be a lot of concrete!


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## SecretSquirrel

AaronBerquist said:


> The guy drilling the holes is using a 10" auger which should yield a 12" hole. So I'll go with a 12" sonotube.


:confused1: You do mean a 12" auger, don't you?


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## skymaster

Aaron: How does a 10" auger drill out a 12" hole:whistling2::yes:


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## robertcdf

Aaron I appluad you for building a nice hefty fence... I dont build fences because I am sure no one will pay for the fence that I would want to build. 12-14" Dia piers 4' deep with 6x6 posts @ 6' O.C. with 4x4 posts inbetween cut into and lag bolted with stainless steel bolts. Then the for the pickets using 2x6 cedar... Fence would never move but it would cost a small fortune.


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## SecretSquirrel

AaronBerquist said:


> So I'll go with a 12" sonotube. Man this is going to be a lot of concrete!


2.3 cubic feet of concrete per post is precisely what it'll be. That's 1/2 bag of Portland at a 1:2:4 mix... or 4 - 80lb bags of Quikrete.


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## AaronBerquist

So it looks like a slight change of plan - I'll be going with the 10" sonotube instead of the 12".

So my calculations for concrete needs are:

10" x 4' = 2.18 cubic feet to fill the hole, less:
6"x6"x4' = 0.85 cubic feet of space the post will take up when set in the hole, equals:

1.34 cubic feet per hole. A 30 kg (66 lb) bag of Quikrete Fence & Post should fill 0.495 cubic feet per bag which works out to 2.7 bags per hole. A 50 lb bag of Quikrete Fence & post will do .375 cubic feet so a 66 lb bag should do .495 cubic feet by my caluclations.

I'm about to order my materials, so hopefully someone can take a quick peek at this and let em know if I'm off base.


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## SecretSquirrel

Aaron, the math looks good for 1.34 cu ft of concrete. I can't seem to find the Fence & Post product so I can't confirm the quantities of those.


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## AaronBerquist

SecretSquirrel said:


> Aaron, the math looks good for 1.34 cu ft of concrete. I can't seem to find the Fence & Post product so I can't confirm the quantities of those.


The Fence & Post is also called "Fast Set" on their website.


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## SecretSquirrel

The Fast Set product specs that I'm looking at only shows it in 50lb (22.7kg) bags with a yield of .375 cu ft (11 L). That would put the quantity at 3.57 bags. Maybe they package it differently in Canada and that's the reason you have 66lb bags. None the less, your math is correct with the 66lb bag @ .495 cu ft yield resulting in 2.7 bags per post.


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## AaronBerquist

SecretSquirrel said:


> The Fast Set product specs that I'm looking at only shows it in 50lb (22.7kg) bags with a yield of .375 cu ft (11 L). That would put the quantity at 3.57 bags. Maybe they package it differently in Canada and that's the reason you have 66lb bags. None the less, your math is correct with the 66lb bag @ .495 cu ft yield resulting in 2.7 bags per post.


It is packaged differently up here, in 30 kg bags which works out to 66 lbs. All I did was figure out that if 50 lbs = .375, then 66 lbs SHOULD equal .495. Here's hoping.

On a side note, the "big box" store I'm ordering from indicated that each bag does 1 cubic foot. Suffice to say I ignored that info. Sigh...


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## SecretSquirrel

AaronBerquist said:


> On a side note, the "big box" store I'm ordering from indicated that each bag does 1 cubic foot. Suffice to say I ignored that info. Sigh...


I bet they screwed up their product description, confusing it with a 94lb bag of Portland cement as that has the contents of 1 cu ft.


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## AaronBerquist

SecretSquirrel said:


> I bet they screwed up their product description, confusing it with a 94lb bag of Portland cement as that has the contents of 1 cu ft.


Thanks for all the help and guidance - you've got some "positive reputation points" from me!


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## Ron6519

I see the point of using sonotubes for a fence that high. That size wall will be subjected to some serious wind load at times. I don't think the 10" sonotube will hold up. You will see cracks at the corners in no time due to the small amount of concrete surrounding the post. The 12" sonotube was questionable with the 6" post. Best case scenario would be a 4" post with the 12" tube or a 14-16" tube with the 6" post.
Predicating a sonotube size based on the limitation of a drill bit size is the wrong way to engineer the job.
Ron


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## AaronBerquist

Ron6519 said:


> I see the point of using sonotubes for a fence that high. That size wall will be subjected to some serious wind load at times. I don't think the 10" sonotube will hold up. You will see cracks at the corners in no time due to the small amount of concrete surrounding the post. The 12" sonotube was questionable with the 6" post. Best case scenario would be a 4" post with the 12" tube or a 14-16" tube with the 6" post.
> Predicating a sonotube size based on the limitation of a drill bit size is the wrong way to engineer the job.
> Ron


Ron - thanks for the advice... quick question though. If the hole is drilled with a 10" auger, how easy/difficult would it be to make that hole wide enough to accomodate a 12" sonotube?


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## Ron6519

You realize you can rent these augers. If your friend digs out a 10" hole you can rent a power auger with a 12" bit for about $50.00 a day. You can enlarge and clean out alot of holes in 8 hours.
You may even be able to just rent the auger bit if the machines are compatible.
Ron


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## AaronBerquist

Ron6519 said:


> You realize you can rent these augers. If your friend digs out a 10" hole you can rent a power auger with a 12" bit for about $50.00 a day. You can enlarge and clean out alot of holes in 8 hours.
> You may even be able to just rent the auger bit if the machines are compatible.
> Ron


I thought about that after I posted the message. I'll call around and see if I can source a 12" auger for him to use on his machine.


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