# Sub Panel without neutral



## dcopps (May 16, 2009)

Photo of sub panel should be attached.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Not to code and not safe. Subs are wired with 4 conductor wire. Since you don't have a neutral, current is returning on the bare ground wire. 

Some real electricians will comment soon. Are you sure who ever did your work was a electrician?


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## dcopps (May 16, 2009)

Yes, TECL licensed


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

As it is now it is not correct for the reason above. It could be rewired so you would have a 120 volt only panel. Half of the breaker slots will be dead.


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## dcopps (May 16, 2009)

I should give him a call.

So, didn't the old furnace do the same thing internal for the 110v transformer for the controls. Just curious.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Electric furnaces come with 240 transformers.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

He should be reported to the licensing agency.

In addition to creating a shock hazard, it would be too easy to overload the ground that is serving as the neutral.


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Also kind of sloppy work for a pro. But of course the missing neutral trumps all else.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Already been said, but no way is that remotely acceptable.


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

I'm not sure if feeding a sub without a neutral is a violation but there are plenty of violations I know for sure in the picture. The biggest IMO is installing a line to neutral branch circuit without a proper neutral feeder.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Arrow3030 said:


> I'm not sure if feeding a sub without a neutral is a violation but there are plenty of violations I know for sure in the picture. The biggest IMO is installing a line to neutral branch circuit without a proper neutral feeder.



If the panel were initially installed as disconnect for dedicated equipment that didn't require a neutral like 240V base board heating or a HW tank then maybe acceptable. I would have needed clarification on that one.

But we can see the problem it created if that were the case.


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

Maybe I worded it wrong. When I look at the picture and count up violations, the lack of a neutral feeding the panel is not one of them AFAIK. Maybe there's a resi rule I have forgotten. 
It is definitely in need of work either way


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Arrow3030 said:


> Maybe I worded it wrong. When I look at the picture and count up violations, the lack of a neutral feeding the panel is not one of them AFAIK. Maybe there's a resi rule I have forgotten.
> It is definitely in need of work either way


So in your area, your allowed to use the ground as a neutral? NEC doesn't permit it.


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

That's not even close to what I'm trying to say. AFAIK, a sub panel isn't required to have a neutral. The violation is that the EGC is carrying a neutral load. That's being done because there's no neutral feeder and the contractor was most likely either lazy, uneducated or in some kind of bind. The violation is the line to neutral branch circuit, not the feeder. The solution is to either feed the sub with a proper grounded conductor or only have line to line branch circuits out of this panel. For instance a 240 volt to 120 volt transformer. Running a proper grounded conductor is the better option IMO.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

It would be easy enough to fix. Make it a 120 only sub. Use the white as the neutral instead of a second hot. Add a separate ground bar. The white would have to be removed from the breaker in the supply panel and moved to the neutral bar.


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## zircon (Sep 24, 2007)

Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

zircon said:


> Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.



no,


here is similar box that is labeled
http://waterheatertimer.org/images/IMG_1789-subpanel-2-1000.jpg


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

zircon said:


> Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.


I thought that at first glance. Look close and you see the white is run past the neutral lug down to the hot lug.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Arrow3030 said:


> That's not even close to what I'm trying to say. AFAIK, a sub panel isn't required to have a neutral.


How is a sub panel supposed to work if it doesn't have a neutral. I think maybe you are confusing a disconnect for a 240 volt device with a sub panel. They are not the same thing.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

joed said:


> How is a sub panel supposed to work if it doesn't have a neutral. I think maybe you are confusing a disconnect for a 240 volt device with a sub panel. They are not the same thing.


I think what ARROW is saying is that a subpanel dedicated to, and servicing ONLY to 240 volt branches does not need a neutral.


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## dcopps (May 16, 2009)

I believe I will suggest he converts this over to a 120v - 60A sub panel. Since I can't run new cable to the attic, is the only other choice to use the existing electric heat #4-2w/g as the 20 amp circuit to the new furnace blower and the existing water heater #10-2w/g as the 15 amp circuit to the tankless WH? That sounds kinda messy in the main panel. Seems like the subpanel is the best way to go.


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## MrElectricianTV (Nov 13, 2014)

dcopps said:


> Photo of sub panel should be attached.


Deleted. I looked at the picture wrong.


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