# Difference between -20 psi vacuum and -30 psi vacuum??



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

Hi, I was wondering about what is the difference between -20 psig and -30 psig vacuum. Why is it such a big deal to let the ac manifold gauge shows the vacuum down to -30 psi after turning off the vacuum pump and before charging the refrigerant??? Is it because there is still air inside the ac system if I don't vacuum it down to -30 psi? So -30 psi is considered as a "perfect vacuum" for the ac system??? I thought that even at -10 psi or just by going a bit below zero psi then there could not be air inside the compressor and ac coils??? (Please correct me if I'm wrong) From my understanding, below zero psig simply means that we are below the Earth's atmospheric pressure so there cannot be air below zero psi regardless to what the number is??? Is it dangerous to charge an ac unit while the pressure is at let's say -28 psi or -20 psi due to minor leaks??? Do you guys take -30 psi vacuum very seriously???? :biggrin2:


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi.

0 psi on the gauge.

psig is gauge pressure, increase above ambient.

psia is absolute pressure.

What you're probably seeing below zero is actually inches of mercury.

Atmospheric pressure is like 30 inches of mercury, so they often put inches of mercury below zero rather than psi.

If the scale was psia, it would start at just under 15 and go down to zero.

I think to check pressure below 0 psig accurately, you need a micron vacuum gauge.

The micron gauge is very sensitive and if there's moisture left in the system, will rise up well above the pressure level you vacuum down to. A regular gauge will not pick this up at all.

One reason to pull a vacuum is to reduce the boiling point of the water in the system, so it boils off and get pulled out. It's not just about removing the air.

See this chart: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-converter-d_460.html

A proper vacuum will be 0.xx psi, absolute.


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

vacuum is not measured in psi, and yes, vacuum is taken VERY seriously! Look up a micron gauge and educate on that. A gauge set is NOT adequate to assess the level of vacuum in a system. 

If you half ass the vacuum, you will degrade your system, bet on it.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi.
> 
> 0 psi on the gauge.
> 
> ...



So basically, I guess that I was right that there is no air below zero psi but there are still microscopic elements under zero psi known as mercury (not a reference to liquid metal of course) that manifold gauge cannot measure in microns? Vacuum gauge is one of the basic equipment that I still don't have. I do have the cheap Chinese vacuum pump and an ac manifold but I don't have the vacuum gauge and plus they are also kinda expensive. Is it true that we should go below 500 microns to be sure that there is no leak and there is no moisture and dirt??? Moisture can make refrigerant becomes acidic and corrosive?? I was thinking about vacuuming my system in a blind way just like driving a car without the head lights on so I would have to make a wild guess of how long this vacuum process would take. I think that without the vacuum gauge, I might have to wait 20 to 30 minutes to vacuum down everything since that is an average time for vacuuming ac system??


Anyway, if the atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi then going below zero at -14.7 psi would be considered absence of atmospheric pressure? (assuming that we are using AC manifold gauge) I'm kinda a bit confuse on this one...


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

viper said:


> vacuum is not measured in psi, and yes, vacuum is taken VERY seriously! Look up a micron gauge and educate on that. A gauge set is NOT adequate to assess the level of vacuum in a system.
> 
> If you half ass the vacuum, you will degrade your system, bet on it.


Yes I heard about that but it is kinda expensive and I don't think that I can afford that at this moment....


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

0 psi on your gauge is 14.7 psi absolute.

Negative pressure does not existing in reality - it's really pressure drop below atmospheric.



You can measure vacuum in whatever you want, be is inches of mercury, psi, microns.

It's just that the smaller units are better. An inch of mercury is under one psi.

Microns are tiny.

Just easier than dealing with decimal points.

Absolute vacuum is 0.xxxxxxxxx(infinite) psi and is impossible to get to.

For your pruposes, it's a question of getting the pressure as low as possible.

Like the manufacturers want vacuum pressure at 500 microns is 0.01 psi. (http://www.kylesconverter.com/pressure/microns-of-mercury-to-pounds-per-square-inch)

Your gauge won't be accurate to 0.0x psi.

Also see the chart in my previous post.

------------
If you can't afford a vacuum gauge, would probably good to keep the vacuum pump on for at least an hour.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

DIY AC GUY said:


> So basically, I guess that I was right that there is no air below zero psi but *there are still microscopic elements under zero psi known as mercury (not a reference to liquid metal of course)* that manifold gauge cannot measure in microns? Vacuum gauge is one of the basic equipment that I still don't have. I do have the cheap Chinese vacuum pump and an ac manifold but I don't have the vacuum gauge and plus they are also kinda expensive. Is it true that we should go below 500 microns to be sure that there is no leak and there is no moisture and dirt??? Moisture can make refrigerant becomes acidic and corrosive?? I was thinking about vacuuming my system in a blind way just like driving a car without the head lights on so I would have to make a wild guess of how long this vacuum process would take. I think that without the vacuum gauge, I might have to wait 20 to 30 minutes to vacuum down everything since that is an average time for vacuuming ac system??
> 
> 
> Anyway, if the atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi then going below zero at -14.7 psi would be considered absence of atmospheric pressure? (assuming that we are using AC manifold gauge) I'm kinda a bit confuse on this one...



I'm certainly no a/c guy but there are, or should not be, elemental mercury in your system, nor are you trying to remove it. "Inches of mercury" is one of the standard units of measurement of atmospheric pressure. As mentioned, pulling down to a standard level of vacuum for a set period of time confirms no system leaks and ensure that any moisture is drawn out ("boiled off").


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

To make it clear, it may not feel like it, but the atmosphere actually does weight something. The pressure that it exerts is, 1 atmosphere, 14.69 psia, 0 psig, 1013 millibar, 101.325 pascals, 760,000 microns, 0 inches of mercury. They all mean the exact same thing. Pick the one you like most. When talking about vacuum, I prefer microns.

When your evacuation is done, you should be below 500 microns, which is allowed to climb to 1500 microns over 10 min or so, but then hold steady. Most people try to keep it below 500 microns. (That is equal to 0.009 psia, or -14.681 psig, or 29.9 inches of mercury. They all mean the same thing. Microns is much easier to read.) 

On a regular gauge set with -29.95"hg on it, the difference between a good vacuum and a terrible vacuum moves the needle less then a hair width. It's too hard to read. 

Here's a handy conversation table. 
https://www.avs.org/AVS/files/ae/ae66e4af-9b98-47fb-b166-77d28a4bb3d2.pdf

Cheers!


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> The pressure that it exerts is, 1 atmosphere, 14.69 psia, 0 psig, 1013 millibar, 101.325 pascals, 760,000 microns, 0 inches of mercury.


Standard atmospheric pressure at sea level is 29.92 inches of mercury.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Oso954 said:


> Standard atmospheric pressure at sea level is 29.92 inches of mercury.


Thank-you pointing that out. Most of us refer to the relative pressure, so 0"mercury. Your number is the absolute pressure. It means the same thing. I've never seen a refrigeration oriented measuring device use inches mercury absolute. 

PS. I made a typo. I said 29.95" mercury, where I meant 29.92" mercury. Fat fingers and I can't change it any more. 

Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

0 PSIG/0" HG at sea level is 14.7 PSIA(A=Absolute). 



10.22" hg vacuum = 9.7 PSIA
18.12" hg vacuum = 5.8 PSIA
25.98" hg vacuum = 1.93 PSIA
27.89" hg vacuum = 1.0 PSIA
29.92" hg vacuum = 0.0 PSIA


You are not air free until you reach and hold a vacuum of 29.92" hg vacuum.


Your gauges reading 30" of mercury vacuum would just show they are not accurate.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

Thank you everyone for replying! :smile:



After I did some research, now I am starting to understand better about how to achieve an absolute vacuum without air or gas (not refering to mercury levels). The reason to why I was confused was because I had never use an Absolute Pressure Gauge in PSIA but I had used AC Manifold gauge in PSIG (for industrial usage). I was kinda right with my wild guess yesterday when I said that below zero psig or below 14.69 PSIA is within the vacuum range but what I did not know was that it does not neceassarily means that it is going to be what they called "Absolute Vacuum". When I said Absolute Vacuum, I am not really talking about Perfect Vacuum but I was talking about an Air-Free Vacuum when there is an absence of air or gas inside the AC system. Basically, at Zero PSIA, that is Absolute Vacuum or at Negative 14.69 PSIG (Of course, going below that then it would be better like below 500 microns so we can also get rid of bacterias, dust, moisture and dirt from the system). 



My confession to why I made this thread which is the same reason to why I made the previous thread about using refrigerant instead of Nitrogen for leak test, was because I am concern about mixing compressed air with refrigerant in case if somebody runs out of Nitrogen to do the Pressure Leak Test but was forced to use refrigerant instead which could be dangerous and hazardous. Under severe leak scenario, I am assuming that it is impossible for the vacuum pump to give you -30 PSIG or -15.3 PSIA to remove all the air in order to avoid possible explosion. 21% of Oxygen in air is very flammable and combustible. R22 is still combustible under high pressure and when mixed with small trace of air in the system. This means that maybe someone can safely charge their ac system with refrigerant for leak test (illegal of course according to EPA :devil3 as long as the pressure is <= Negative 14.69 PSIG (Zero PSIA). Assuming that the gauge handle would eventually slowly go back up from -30 PSIG after turning off vacuum pump due to severe leak so this means that we have to quickly disconnect vacuum pump and quickly connect yellow hose to refrigerant jug as fast as we can before the handle goes above -14.69 PSIG and recharge the system. I just hope that the velocity of leakage is slow enough to at least give somebody 3 minutes to prepare for recharging the system with refrigerant in case if nitrogen is finished for pressure leak test and to avoid the explosion. At absolute vacuum, you are not really compressing refrigerant with air since there is no air so theoretically, it should be safe. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) :wacko:


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> You are not air free until you reach and hold a vacuum of 29.92" hg vacuum.



Actually, I think that you are wrong, at 29.92 hq is actually at 14.69 PSIA. That is at only Zero PSIG which means that there is still air. I have to go below 14.69 psia (0 PSIG) at least or reaching at Zero PSIA (-14.69 psig) in order to achieve Absolute Vacuum (Not Perfect Vacuum) where air or gas is 100% absent. 

Vacuum range starts from 14.69 PSIA and down to Zero PSIA (Absolute Vacuum without air).

Perfect Vacuum (Industrial by definition) is -30 PSIG or -15.3 PSIA and going under 500 microns like 25 microns or 50 to 100 microns. :biggrin2:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Perfect Vacuum (Industrial by definition) is -30 PSIG or -15.3 PSIA and going under 500 microns like 25 microns or 50 to 100 microns. :biggrin2:


Sorry, you still don't quite understand. -30psig doesn't exist. Neither does -15.3 psia. They would represent negative microns, which again doesn't.

What beenthere said is at a perfect vacuum, you have a depression of 29.92" mercury column. (We use mercury because like many other elements, it will NOT boil in a vacuum in the temperatures that we're concerned with. Water will, so using water column doesn't work. These are actual measuring scales) 

Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Actually, I think that you are wrong, at 29.92 hq is actually at 14.69 PSIA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-converter-d_460.html


Look at that chart. 0 PSIA is the lowest you can go for vacuum, and considered 100% vacuum. Which just so happens to be 29.92" mercury vacuum.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Sorry, you still don't quite understand. -30psig doesn't exist. Neither does -15.3 psia. They would represent negative microns, which again doesn't.
> 
> What beenthere said is at a perfect vacuum, you have a depression of 29.92" mercury column. (We use mercury because like many other elements, it will NOT boil in a vacuum in the temperatures that we're concerned with. Water will, so using water column doesn't work. These are actual measuring scales)
> 
> Cheers!



There is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. Not even the interstellar space is considered to be perfect vacuum. This is only by industrial standard or by industry definition. The deepest vacuum that had been achieved on Earth is in a laboratory and it was at 12 torr vacuum if I'm correct. :biggrin2:



My point is that in a severe leak scenario, you can never achieve an absolute vacuum anyway. However, that does not mean that you cannot safely charge it with refrigerant. I am not talking about EPA or legality but about safety and avoiding explosion. You can still charge it without fearing that it is going to explode since there is no air at absolute vacuum. If there is no leaks then it would definitely make sense to go below 500 microns to get a better vacuum rather than staying at only zero psia or -14.69 psig (Absolute Vacuum but not very perfect by industry standard).


What have you been smoking lately? :devil3: :vs_laugh:Of course there is -30 psig vacuum and it says it on the gauge but I was not saying that it is universally a perfect vacuum either. Absolute vacuum is not perfect too because you still have mercury levels in your ac system but at least it will not cause explosion if you compress refrigerant into a negative 14.69 psig (zero psia) vacuum due to absence of air but of course you gonna still have moisture and it could shorten the lifespan of your components and cause corrosion to coils. :glasses:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> ... to remove all the air in order to avoid possible explosion. 21% of Oxygen in air is very flammable and combustible. R22 is still combustible under high pressure and when mixed with small trace of air in the system. ...


Forget about all of that. Oxygen by itself, is not explosive at all. Or needs to be combined with something else which is combustible. (must be able to oxidize.)

R22 by itself is not considered to have a lower or upper flammability limit. It is not flammable. However, PoE oil is slightly flammable. Look at the document below. If shows how hard they had to try to get various refrigerants to ignite. R22 required 3 times more air in the system then refrigerant. That's essentially trying to fill the system without using a vacuum machine. It simply isn't possible with a leak. 

http://iafss.org/publications/fss/9/615/view/fss_9-615.pdf

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-converter-d_460.html
> 
> 
> Look at that chart. 0 PSIA is the lowest you can go for vacuum, and considered 100% vacuum. Which just so happens to be 29.92" mercury vacuum.



With an absolute pressure gauge, of course you cannot go below zero PSIA but with our ac manifold pressure gauge in psig, yes we can. The lowest vacuum is zero torr. The deepest vacuum that humans ever reach is 12 torr. 100% perfect vacuum is impossible and not even interstellar space is a perfect vacuum either. -30 psig is -15.31 psia (mathematically).


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Forget about all of that. Oxygen by itself, is not explosive at all. Or needs to be combined with something else which is combustible. (must be able to oxidize.)
> 
> R22 by itself is not considered to have a lower or upper flammability limit. It is not flammable. However, PoE oil is slightly flammable. Look at the document below. If shows how hard they had to try to get various refrigerants to ignite. R22 required 3 times more air in the system then refrigerant. That's essentially trying to fill the system without using a vacuum machine. It simply isn't possible with a leak.
> 
> ...



According to MSDS and National Refrigerants, R22 is a combustible refrigerant in their classification but it is non flammable at ambient pressure and temperature. What concerns me more is if we accidentally compress R22 with air because -30 psig vacuum could not be achieve due to leaks then yes, it can explode. Under extreme high pressure, oxygen molecules will behave in an erratic and violent way and crashing into refrigerant molecules in the presence of refrigerant oil as fuel and causing chemical reaction and then you will have a pipe bomb ready to explode. 



Talking about leaks, you could never go below 500 microns if you have leaks even if you use vacuum pump. If you turn off the vacuum pump then you will see the gauge handle will go back up to zero psig in severe leakage scenario and the microns will rise again. If you can charge it before it reach 14.69 psig or going above that in a very fast speed then maybe it is still safe because at absolute vacuum, there is no air so no explosion without oxygen. The only problem with this tricky method of using refrigerant for leak test is that it is a waste of refrigerant and you would have to recover it before doing brazing even if it will not cause an explosion. This is called partial evacuation or partial vacuum under heavy leaks. (I don't encourage anyone doing this since it is illegal in some countries but it is good for forum discussion) :biggrin2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> With an absolute pressure gauge, of course you cannot go below zero PSIA but with our ac manifold pressure gauge in psig, yes we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't care if you can work it out mathematically to be a negative. There is no such thing as a negative PSIA. But you probably are succeeding in confusing other people down the road.


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

> vacuum is not measured in psi,


To keep it simple. vacuum is the opposite of pressure.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

You are completely confused about the scales. 

I took a picture of one is my older gauges just for you. Notice where the pen is, it says inches of mercury vacuum. That is not PSI anything.









Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> My point is that in a severe leak scenario, you can never achieve an absolute vacuum anyway.


You shouldn't be pulling a vacuum on a system that has a leak, pulls in air which has moisture.

For a severe leak, fix the leak.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Here's a good table. It shows the percentage of vacuum achieved. 100% equals a perfect vacuum. It cannot be any better. 

www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/vacuum-converter-d_460.html

To explain the scales a bit, a column of mercury is used for most of these. I've added a picture below in what it looks like. As you lower the pressure, the mercury falls under it's own weight. A perfect vacuum is when that is 760mm (29.92") below where it rested at 1 atmosphere. This is a relative scale. 

To make the math easier, they called this perfect vacuum 0 mm of mercury absolute. (mm of Hg absolute is also called torr) So when you go back to atmospheric pressure, you will measure 760mm or 760 torr. Micron is short for micrometer. (1mm = 1000um) So that is equal to 760,000 microns. 

The best vacuum achieved by humans that I could find proof of, hit 0.000,000,000,000,007 torr. (0.000,000,000,007 microns or 29.919,999,999,999,999,624,421,053" Hg Vacuum) 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

I guess that it is probably because there is a limitation on the psia chart and the absolute pressure gauge that the manufacturer allows so there is no value under 0 psia since nobody would use those negative values in psia unit because absolute pressure gauge is not for industrial usage but with ac manifold gauge we can go down to -30 psig which is -15.31 psia (this value is not available on absolute pressure gauge since the lowest value is zero psia but we can convert it mathematically). 



I was using PSIA to PSIG conversion calculator on other website and it gave me the same answer. Perfect vacuum is zero torr but nobody can achieve that in reality. PSIA like PSIG is a just a measurement unit and it is still about math especially when we have to convert values between these 2 units. This makes many people understand about the importance of conversion of units. For instance, I had converted Fahrenheit to Celsius since in Europe and Asia we don't use Fahrenheit unit. It is also like converting Miles to Kilometers or vice versa... For instance, if people don't tell me that zero psig is equivalent to atmospheric pressure (14.69 psia) then I might be having trouble in understanding what value I should get in my PSIG gauge in order to achieve an absolute vacuum with no air. You see???


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I guess that it is probably because there is a limitation on the psia chart and the absolute pressure gauge that the manufacturer allows so there is no value under 0 psia since nobody would use those negative values in psia unit because absolute pressure gauge is not for industrial usage but with ac manifold gauge we can go down to -30 psig which is -15.31 psia (this value is not available on absolute pressure gauge since the lowest value is zero psia but we can convert it mathematically).
> 
> 
> 
> I was using PSIA to PSIG conversion calculator on other website and it gave me the same answer. Perfect vacuum is zero torr but nobody can achieve that in reality. PSIA like PSIG is a just a measurement unit and it is still about math especially when we have to convert values between these 2 units. This makes many people understand about the importance of conversion of units. For instance, I had converted Fahrenheit to Celsius since in Europe and Asia we don't use Fahrenheit unit. It is also like converting Miles to Kilometers or vice versa... For instance, if people don't tell me that zero psig is equivalent to atmospheric pressure (14.69 psia) then I might be having trouble in understanding what value I should get in my PSIG gauge in order to achieve an absolute vacuum with no air. You see???



Its not PSIG. Its inches mercury vacuum.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I guess that it is probably because there is a limitation on the psia chart and the absolute pressure gauge that the manufacturer allows so there is no value under 0 psia since nobody would use those negative values in psia unit because absolute pressure gauge is not for industrial usage but with ac manifold gauge we can go down to -30 psig which is -15.31 psia (this value is not available on absolute pressure gauge since the lowest value is zero psia but we can convert it mathematically).
> ...


By definition, negative psia does not exist. Those 2 calculators are wrong. The charts I have are right. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> You are completely confused about the scales.
> 
> I took a picture of one is my older gauges just for you. Notice where the pen is, it says inches of mercury vacuum. That is not PSI anything.
> 
> ...













This is the AC Manifold Gauge that I am using but it shows Negative 30 PSIG in HQ VAC. (-30 PSIG in HQ VAC)


Model: Panna 8 MG-2-R32 (Newer Gauge)


Low Pressure Side Range: -30 PSIG to 550 PSIG
High Pressure Side Range: -30 PSIG to 800 PSIG


It means that anything below Zero PSIG or From 0 to -30 PSIG is within the HQ Vacuum Range. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I am also trying to educate myself.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> This is the AC Manifold Gauge that I am using but it shows Negative 30 PSIG in HQ VAC. (-30 PSIG in HQ VAC)
> 
> 
> Model: Panna 8 MG-2-R32



No. It shows 30" mercury vacuum. Not a pressure per square inch.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> This is the AC Manifold Gauge that I am using but it shows Negative 30 PSIG in HQ VAC. (-30 PSIG in HQ VAC)
> 
> 
> Model: Panna 8 MG-2-R32 (Newer Gauge)
> ...


NO! It doesn't! Look at it very carefully. It has 2 scales!

0-550 PSIG and 0-30" hg. On the low side. Similar on the high. 

30"Hg vac doesn't exist, but it's a auto set. They rounded to make it easier to read. Car mechanics have enough to worry about, they don't care about a good vacuum, those systems don't last long anyways. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> NO! It doesn't! Look at it very carefully. It has 2 scales!
> 
> 0-550 PSIG and 0-29.92" hg.
> 
> Cheers!



But what about the dash symbol in front of 30??? That outer circular line represents Bar unit on the left side and PSIG on the right side. Notice it said -1 Bar or Negative 1 Bar and Negative 30 PSI on the other side and followed by "HQ in VAC". This is on both Low Side and High Side. Range starts from Negative 30 PSI but not zero PSI. So you are trying to tell me that -30 hqinvac is also 30 hqinvac if it is not in PSIG unit??? So hqinvac is a unit too??? But how is this possible that yours says 30 and mine says -30??? :euro::excl:
Come on, Negative values do really exist and we use it all the time. For instance, on the Moon Titan of Saturn, the default temperature is always below Zero so it will always have Negative Values in either fahrenheit or celsius unit since it is freezing cold there.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

Now, I think I get it. All these units: PSIA, PSIG and HQinVAC are all intercompatible since they are all based on Inch Unit. PSIA is Pound per Square Inch Absolute and PSIG is Pound per Square Inch Gage and also HQinVAC unit (i think that HQ stands for high quality) uses inch. Basically they all uses Inch unit which are all intercompatible. For instance we can say that -30 PSIG (30 inches down into vacuum) is actually 30 inches of High Quality Vacuum. This is also why I don't have a hard time in understanding that 14.69 PSIA is actually zero PSIG so -14.69 PSIG is absolute vacuum (zero psia). This is probably why some manifold gauge manufacturer don't mind using "-30 psig" or "30 inches of hqinvac" because at the end, they are the same but in different unit.



Cheers! :biggrin2::vs_bananasplit:arty:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The temperature of Titan. Is 94.15° Kelvin.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Your picture wasn't the highest resolution, but I used it to highlight that you're not reading it correctly. They changed the scale. 

Since 1 bar is almost 1 atmosphere, (atm) and relative to the atmosphere like psig, perfect vacuum could be rounded to -1bar if you were being generic.









Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

beenthere said:


> The temperature of Titan. Is 94.15° Kelvin.


[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Now, I think I get it. All these units: PSIA, PSIG and HQinVAC are all intercompatible since they are all based on Inch Unit. PSIA is Pound per Square Inch Absolute and PSIG is Pound per Square Inch Gage and also HQinVAC unit (i think that HQ stands for high quality) uses inch. Basically they all uses Inch unit which are all intercompatible. For instance we can say that -30 PSIG (30 inches down into vacuum) is actually 30 inches of High Quality Vacuum. This is also why I don't have a hard time in understanding that 14.69 PSIA is actually zero PSIG so -14.69 PSIG is absolute vacuum (zero psia).


No! 

It's NOT HQ, it is Hg. 

Hg is the atomic symbol of Mercury. It means inches of mercury vacuum. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> The temperature of Titan. Is 94.15° Kelvin.



Ok, you say potato, I say potarto and you say tomato, I say tomarto. :vs_laugh:



Moon Titan temperature: Minus/Negative 290 Degrees Fahrenheit or Minus/Negative 179 Degrees Celsius.:biggrin2:

I wonder if the refrigerant bottle can even explode there due to freezing temperature. I think the difference of pressure inside the r22 bottle and on Titan is still very different so it can still explode but refrigerant will not leak out in the form of gas/vapour but in the form of liquid just like we pressurized water tank on Earth and if you shoot at it then water would splatter out. Also Titan's atmosphere is mainly nitrogen so without a high amount of oxygen then there is no flame. Pressurized contents can still explode but without flame. Methane would also be liquified which form rivers and lakes and oceans at very low temperature. Very interesting stuff to share but it is also off topic, unfortunately.... fftopic::biggrin2:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Ok, you say potato, I say potarto and you say tomato, I say tomarto. :vs_laugh:
> :


Actually i think you said tomato, he said car.... 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Your picture wasn't the highest resolution, but I used it to highlight that you're not reading it correctly. They changed the scale.
> Cheers!



I am not even using reading glasses but I can clearly see all details and the values in my picture without any problem. :biggrin2:



Hmmmmmmmmm....... Maybe you might need a good reading glasses or something so you can easily see my picture in better details, perhaps???? :glasses:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I am not even using reading glasses but I can clearly see all details and the values in my picture without any problem. :biggrin2:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmm....... Maybe you might need a good reading glasses or something so you can easily see my picture in better details, perhaps???? :glasses:


That's your takeaway? 

Cheers!


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> That's your takeaway?
> 
> Cheers!



I was just joking. Yes, I do admit that my image was not well zoomed. I got that image from Alibaba if I'm correct. Anyway, thanks for the zoomed image so people could see the details better... :biggrin2:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> No!
> 
> It's NOT HQ, it is Hg.
> 
> ...



Whoops! You're right. It is not HQ but HG (stands for Hydrargyrum but not High quality). Google had confused me when I was searching for its abbreviations. However, it is still based on inch unit like the PSIA and PSIG. Thanks for correcting me.


Cheers! :biggrin2:


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Whoops! You're right. It is not HQ but HG (stands for Hydrargyrum but not High quality). Google had confused me when I was searching for its abbreviations. However, it is still based on inch unit like the PSIA and PSIG. Thanks for correcting me.
> 
> 
> Cheers! :biggrin2:


It doesn't matter. It's a unit of measurement for pressure. Consider it part of the number.

Cheers!


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

If you can't get a system down to 30 inches vacuum you have either a leak in the system or maybe your hoses are not good. They have vacuum rated hoses that I carried and I only use them to evacuate the system. I don't use them for charging. Can I have a tree that is for the vacuum pump that I can hook up 3/8 connections to. If you changed out the condensing unit you can cheat and Purge the system with refrigerant. Be sure to install a liquid line drier if it's a replacement inner using the existing line set and evaporator coil. If you opened up the whole system condenser evaporator lineset you really should put a vacuum pump on it. With the setup I have I don't have to use gauges to pull a really good vacuum. The hoses go right to the vacuum pump

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

thekux said:


> If you can't get a system down to 30 inches vacuum you have either a leak in the system or maybe your hoses are not good. ...


30" Hg Vac doesn't exist. 

Cheers!


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

This is the USA we don't use metric system


supers05 said:


> 30" Hg Vac doesn't exist.
> 
> Cheers!


Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

thekux said:


> This is the USA we don't use metric system
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Inches of mercury is an imperial measurement. 

Cheers!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

thekux said:


> This is the USA we don't use metric system
> 
> 
> supers05 said:
> ...



Don’t see where Super said anything about metric system in his post you quoted.

PS: Just for the record. This is a Canadian owned site.


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

Who cares super needs to get out of the little utility where he works and actually go out in the field. He said 30 in doesn't exist so he must be thinking metric


beenthere said:


> Don’t see where Super said anything about metric system in his post you quoted.
> 
> PS: Just for the record. This is a Canadian owned site.


Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

thekux said:


> Who cares super needs to get out of the little utility where he works and actually go out in the field. He said 30 in doesn't exist so he must be thinking metric
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Learn the scales that you use. 

Cheers!


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Learn the scales that you use.
> 
> Cheers!


You're supposed to say 500 microns to look like a brain

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

thekux said:


> You're supposed to say 500 microns to look like a brain
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


No need. You have that job down to an art. 

Cheers!


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

thekux said:


> Who cares super needs to get out of the little utility where he works and actually go out in the field. He said 30 in doesn't exist so he must be thinking metric
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Um, no - 30" mercury is just above atmospheric pressure. It's a possibility, but not as a vacuum as you suggested.

If you have a reading of 30" Hg, you're not in a vacuum by definition, which is below 0 psig.

0 psig is 29.929" mercury.

Now if you're talking gauge pressure, not absolute, the scale may start as zero inches and go down to -30",* which is inches below atmospheric rather than absolute pressure.*


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

note: the first hyphen was used as a hyphen, not negative sign 

The second is a negative sign.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

1 atm = 29.9212598 inHg


> The conventional value isn't a measured quantity, but a definition.
> 
> *The now-conventional inch of mercury is defined to as 25.4 mmHg, the same as the relationship between an inch and a millimeter (this isn't necessarily true when comparisions include either unit of pressure in an older version, and the relationship between the units of length has also varied over time and place)
> *The now-conventional millimeter of mercury is defined by setting the standard atmosphere to be simultaneously equal to 101.325 kPa and 760 mmHg. In other words, 1 mmHg = 101325/760 Pa.
> **For the standard atmosphere, 1 atm = (760 mmHg)/(25.4 inHg/mmHg) = 29117⁄127*inHg ≈ 29.9212598... inHg*


Wikipedia talk page - Gene Nygaard. (Didn't care enough to go look for a real reference.) 

Cheers!


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> note: the first hyphen was used as a hyphen, not negative sign
> 
> The second is a negative sign.


Lol, i was just going to remind you to be careful with that. How people (mis)read is the whole reason for many of these threads. 

Cheers!


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> ...
> Now if you're talking gauge pressure, not absolute, the scale may start as zero inches and go down to -30",* which is inches below atmospheric rather than absolute pressure.*


Need to add that just because it's printed on something doesn't mean it actually exists. 

Cheers!


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

I got the exact figure from google where you ask it to convert and never verified it.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> I got the exact figure from google where you ask it to convert and never verified it.


That's why i clarified it. Google can be too vague, and miss really important information. IE. inHg is historically defined in 3 different temperatures. 32*F, 60*F, and the above. (Which changes the density and therefore height of the column.) There are other factors too. 

Cheers!


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

supers05 said:


> 30" Hg Vac doesn't exist.
> 
> Cheers!


Actually it does what people who have been doing it for a while call it

https://www.contractingbusiness.com/refrigeration/refrigerant-evacuation-dont-be-clockwatcher

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

thekux said:


> Actually it does what people who have been doing it for a while call it
> 
> https://www.contractingbusiness.com/refrigeration/refrigerant-evacuation-dont-be-clockwatcher
> 
> ...


I skimmed through that. He doesn't say to pull down to 30 inHg vac. You should try reading. 

Cheers!


----------



## thekux (Jul 30, 2018)

supers05 said:


> I skimmed through that. He doesn't say to pull down to 30 inHg vac. You should try reading.
> 
> Cheers!


Pulling vacuum. I'm sure you've never installed any gas piping but they'll actually use a pressure gauge and measure that in Mercury. Has to hold 7 in Mercury yeah that's under pressure. I'm sure you haven't installed any equipment actually


#MAGA









Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Again, try reading. 

Cheers!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

thekux said:


> Who cares super needs to get out of the little utility where he works and actually go out in the field. He said 30 in doesn't exist so he must be thinking metric
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk



30" of mercury vacuum doesn't exist.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

I think that what many people are confused about is the difference between the measurement unit for mercury (vacuum gauge in microns) and the measurement unit for the vacuum itself. PSIG is used to measure only the vacuum but not mercury levels. Vacuum by definition means a space with absence of air or being under atmospheric pressure but that does not mean that there is no mercury levels in it such as bacterias/moisture/dust. We can still have mercury within the range of all types of vacuums. Going under atmospheric pressure is already considered within the vacuum range but not absolute vacuum which is at zero psia or -14.69 PSIG or 14.69" Hg. Also none of these units are in metric system but they are all based on inch like I already said it earlier therefore they are intercompatible but what PSIG could not tell us is the mercury levels. Absolute vacuum is not really a perfect vacuum by industrial standard or definition but it just simply means you have zero presence of air or 100% absence of air in that tight space. Perfect vacuum by industrial definition means that you need to reach negative 30 PSIG and going below 500 microns before you recharge an ac system. Perfect Vacuum by scientific definition like the astronomy, means zero torr which is impossible to achieve and not even interstellar deep space is a perfect vacuum either. The deepest vacuum that humans ever reached is at 10 and to the power of -11 torr at the laboratory, if I'm correct. 30" of HG vacuum is stilll a vacuum and it really exist but PSIG and HG does not tell how much mercury levels is within this 30" of HG vacuum. This is why we need a vacuum gauge. A vacuum gauge just simply tell us the quality of the vacuum but not whether it is a vacuum or not a vacuum. If there is no vacuum or if we are not within the absolute vacuum range then it does not make any sense to use the vacuum gauge to begin with. Again, unfortunately, I still don't have a vacuum gauge at the moment but I might buy it in the future.


Anyway, thanks everyone for replying and shed more light to this and thanks also to the viewers for viewing and reading. :biggrin2:


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I think that what many people are confused about is the difference between the measurement unit for mercury (vacuum gauge in microns) and the measurement unit for the vacuum itself. PSIG is used to measure only the vacuum but not mercury levels. Vacuum by definition means a space with absence of air or being under atmospheric pressure but that does not mean that there is no mercury levels in it such as bacterias/moisture/dust. We can still have mercury within the range of all types of vacuums. Going under atmospheric pressure is already considered within the vacuum range but not absolute vacuum which is at zero psia or -14.69 PSIG or 14.69" Hg. Also none of these units are in metric system but they are all based on inch like I already said it earlier therefore they are intercompatible but what PSIG could not tell us is the mercury levels. Absolute vacuum is not really a perfect vacuum by industrial standard or definition but it just simply means you have zero presence of air or 100% absence of air in that tight space. Perfect vacuum by industrial definition means that you need to reach negative 30 PSIG and going below 500 microns before you recharge an ac system. Perfect Vacuum by scientific definition like the astronomy, means zero torr which is impossible to achieve and not even interstellar deep space is a perfect vacuum either. The deepest vacuum that humans ever reached is at 12 torr at the laboratory, if I'm correct. 30" of HG vacuum is stilll a vacuum and it really exist but PSIG and HG does not tell how much mercury levels is within this 30" of HG vacuum. In other words, vacuum gauge just simply tell us the quality of the vacuum but not whether it is a vacuum or not a vacuum. If there is no vacuum or if we are not within the absolute vacuum range then it does not make any sense to use the vacuum gauge to begin with.
> 
> 
> Anyway, thanks everyone for replying and shed more light to this and thanks also to the viewers for viewing and reading.


There was almost nothing correct in that entire post. You do not understand units of measure. 

You can never achieve -30psi in relation to the atmosphere at or above sea-level. 30" of Hg vacuum, doesn't exist. You mis-use units. 12 Torr is more then 10,000 microns, which is easily passed in HVAC. I'm growing tired of the corrections. 

Cheers!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

29.92" is telling you the amount of vacuum. Measuring in microns tells you the quality.


PS: 12 torr is more than 10,000 microns. And in air conditioning and refrigeration, that would not be a good enough vacuum.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> There was almost nothing correct in that entire post. You do not understand units of measure.
> 
> Cheers!



I might not be an expert in measurement units but I understand what they are meant for like what kind of usage requires these measurements. It is also a matter of preference and what country you come from. If I am wrong in my explanation then prove it. :biggrin2:


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I might not be an expert in measurement units but I understand what they are meant for like what kind of usage requires these measurements. It is also a matter of preference and what country you come from. If I am wrong in my explanation then prove it. :biggrin2:


 Your a bit like a guy that thinks if he reads a book on computer programming. He knows how to write computer programs.


And then decides to explain how to write programs to other people.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I might not be an expert in measurement units but I understand what they are meant for like what kind of usage requires these measurements. It is also a matter of preference and what country you come from. If I am wrong in my explanation then prove it. :biggrin2:


This isn't preference. This simply that you do not understand, and you will confuse people with your posts. It has nothing to do with country.

Cheers!


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> 29.92
> 
> PS: 12 torr is more than 10,000 microns. And in air conditioning and refrigeration, that would not be a good enough vacuum.



The deepest vacuum is actually 10 to the power of -11 torr at CERN LAB. Sorry, not at 12 torr.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042207X01003839
e https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/best-vacuum-ever-achieved.893876/


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> This isn't preference. This simply that you do not understand, and you will confuse people with your posts. It has nothing to do with country.
> 
> Cheers!



Actually it does, for instance, the first time when I look at recharging AC system on youtube, the fahrenheit units that you guys use in North America had completely confused me. Even worse is that sometimes the technicians did not say like 90 degrees of fahrenheit but just simply said 90 degrees of ambient temperature to find the super heat. Lol!, I thought that was extremely hot but afterwards I realized that it isn't in celsius which is what we use in Europe and Asia so I converted it by dividing it with 1.8 which gave me the result in celsius. Also we use metric system here excluding the PSIG and PSIA units which are still in inch. :biggrin2:


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> The deepest vacuum is actually 10 and to the power of -11 torr at CERN LAB. Sorry, not at 12 torr.
> 
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042207X01003839
> e https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/best-vacuum-ever-achieved.893876/



That is not 10


Its 10 to the negative 11 power. And is not to be expressed as 10. 



Your post before simply said 12 torr.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> That is not 10
> 
> 
> Its 10 to the negative 11 power. And is not to be expressed as 10.
> ...



I cannot copy and paste it from the other website and could not find the character like to the power of negative 11. It is 10 to the power of negative 11 torr. Not 10 torr, of course.... Sometimes it came out as 10-11 after copying and pasting it. Technical issue with copy and pasting.


Yes, I was wrong. It is not 12 torr. I think that I saw that somewhere on google search. This is why I said please correct me if I'm wrong.



You can check the article link that I had provided...


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I cannot copy and paste it from the other website and could not find the character like to the power of negative 11. It is 10 to the power of negative 11 torr. Not 10 torr, of course.... Sometimes it came out as 10-11 after copying and pasting it. Technical issue with copy and pasting.
> 
> 
> You can check the article link that I had provided...


Without superscript, it's often expressed as 10x10^(-11)

Cheers!


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Micron is just a unit measurement of pressure like psi or " hg.

It's just that each unit of the scale is so small, it's useful for monitoring subtle differences in pressure.

It's easier to remember to go down to x microns than 0.0xxxpsi.

Any accurate digital vacuum gauge can be used to determine quality of vacuum, *the scale used does not matter technically.*

Again, here's a useful conversion chart -> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-converter-d_460.html

The vacuum greatly reduces the boiling point of water.

When there's still moisture in a system under deep enough vacuum, the moisture boils off.

When the pump is shut off, the boiling off of moisture causes the pressure to rise, indicating the system is not fully dried out yet.

When there's a large enough leak, the measured vacuum pressure rises after the pump gets shut off. 

------------------


> psia or -14.69 PSIG or 14.69" Hg.


No, absolute is 0" mercury.



> 30" of HG vacuum is stilll a vacuum


It's not a vacuum, it's just above 0 psig.



> The deepest vacuum that humans ever reached is at 12 torr at the laboratory


False, review the chart i linked to above.

You should be able to get below 12 torr on a a/c system pulling a vacuum.



> In other words, vacuum gauge just simply tell us the quality of the vacuum but not whether it is a vacuum or not a vacuum.


No, it just indicates level/debth of vacuum very accurately.

If it's at or above 760 000 microns, the pressure is above vacuum.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> Your a bit like a guy that thinks if he reads a book on computer programming. He knows how to write computer programs.
> 
> 
> And then decides to explain how to write programs to other people.



Actually, I am a VB.net and C++ and a java programmer. I do read and check the grammar syntax from a programming book and that is how sometimes I managed to learn new grammar syntax and new command functions. I only took introductory courses but not advanced ones. I managed to create a client and server win32 application with VB 6.0 but later I converted the codes to VB.Net. I can control any PC in any parts of the world if it has my server in it. I can scan all the IP address range to find the host PC regardless in which country it is...



I never even take a course for electronic repair but I learned it by watching videos on Youtube and google it. I never really use math and never learn pre-calculus but I just use my multimeter. Funnily, sometimes I ended up watching Indian technicians videos on Youtube and I don't understand hindi but I can still tell what he was trying to do by just looking. The only word that I undestood from their mouth is the word "OK" which means that the motherboard is fine and does not have shorted components. There is no subtitle or caption support on those repair videos too... :biggrin2:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> It's not a vacuum, it's just above 0 psig.



I did not mention anything above the vacuum range. Zero PSIG is at the atmospheric pressure which is 14.69 PSIA. Of course, if you go above that or remain at zero psig then is not definitely within vacuum range. 30" deep into the vacuum is 30 inHGVac. It says it on the ac manifold gauge...



The point of my thread is to identify what is considered to be an absolute vacuum (not perfect vacuum by industrial standard) without air regardless to whether it still has mercury or not in a severe leak scenario and also without a vacuum gauge in micron available. At zero psia (negative 14.69 psig), you already reached absolute vacuum with no air but there is still mercury in it unless if you go down to 25 microns or 50-100 microns at -30 psig.... (based on assumption that it is impossible to keep it at -30 psig for more than 30 seconds due to severe leaks and to avoid compressing the air)


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Actually, I am a VB.net and C++ and a java programmer. :


So am I, and a few more languages. Except, I did it professionally. Desk jobs weren't my thing. 

Units of measure is not calculus. It's basic math. Lower high school stuff here. 

Stuff on YouTube isn't always right. 


Cheers!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I did not mention anything above the vacuum range. Zero PSIG is at the atmospheric pressure which is 14.69 PSIA. Of course, if you go above that or remain at zero psig then is not definitely within vacuum range. 30" deep into the vacuum is 30 inHGVac. It says it on the ac manifold gauge...
> 
> 
> 
> The point of my thread is to identify what is considered to be an absolute vacuum (not perfect vacuum by industrial standard) without air regardless to whether it still has mercury or not in a severe leak scenario and also without a vacuum gauge in micron available. At zero psia (negative 14.69 psig), you already reached absolute vacuum with no air but there is still mercury in it unless if you go down to 25 microns or 50-100 microns at -30 psig.... (based on assumption that it is impossible to keep it at -30 psig for more than 30 seconds due to severe leaks and to avoid compressing the air)



And yet you explain it wrong. By using wrong terminology/syntax.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I did not mention anything above the vacuum range. Zero PSIG is at the atmospheric pressure which is 14.69 PSIA. Of course, if you go above that or remain at zero psig then is not definitely within vacuum range. 30" deep into the vacuum is 30 inHGVac. It says it on the ac manifold gauge...
> 
> 
> 
> The point of my thread is to identify what is considered to be an absolute vacuum (not perfect vacuum by industrial standard) without air regardless to whether it still has mercury or not in a severe leak scenario and also without a vacuum gauge in micron available. At zero psia (negative 14.69 psig), you already reached absolute vacuum with no air but there is still mercury in it unless if you go down to 25 microns or 50-100 microns at -30 psig.... (based on assumption that it is impossible to keep it at -30 psig for more than 30 seconds due to severe leaks and to avoid compressing the air)


No. There really shouldn't be mercury in any system that you're working on. Absolute vacuum is a reference point. It is a perfect vacuum by definition. There's nothing better then it. 

Cheers!


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> So am I, and a few more languages. Except, I did it professionally. Desk jobs weren't my thing.
> 
> Units of measure is not calculus. It's basic math. Lower high school stuff here.
> 
> ...



Congratulations! But I did programming as a hobby and my application works very well too... I am not a professional programmer but I believe that anyone can do it too and get it to work. We just need to have motivation and interest in programming. :biggrin2: (Many professional hackers do not even have a certificate in programming)


It's basic math and we don't have to calculate it manually because multimeter will do it for us. We cannot get a right voltage value without measurement device like a multimeter anyway. I hate when universities force us into studying courses that I don't consider that it is necessary for our job or hobbies. I never use calculus in electronic repair or programming but if you don't take calculus 1,2,3 then they will not give you the certificate in programming. University is a business that wants our money and they just don't care if it is really neceasarry or not. I love electronic repair and programming but I don't like math even sometimes calculation formula might be needed in programming. I just copied and pasted fahrentheit to celsius formula to my program for intro to programming class. We just have to do things that we love to do and yes, we are different. :vs_cool:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> No. There really shouldn't be mercury in any system that you're working on. Absolute vacuum is a reference point. It is a perfect vacuum by definition. There's nothing better then it.
> 
> Cheers!


Well, I wish that I am pro so i can just get a better result. If there is a severe leak then you cannot remove mercury. You have to first repair the leaks otherwise you will go above 500 microns. A DIY guy might not have nitrogen for pressurized leak test so to safely do it is he must at least reach aboslute vacuum without air before charging refrigerant. This thread is about the leak test and temporary charge of refrigerant but not a complete recharge of ac system and a complete removal of mercury. (not recommended since it is illegal according to EPA but for the sake of discussion):biggrin2:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> And yet you explain it wrong. By using wrong terminology/syntax.



Well, I am not trying to be an English master or an expert here. :biggrin2:


My arguments are still valid and very logical.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

Lol! My thread had reached 827 viewers. This must be a really hot thread! :biggrin2:


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> 30" deep into the vacuum is 30 inHGVac. It says it on the ac manifold gauge...


No it is not.

Now, if you put a negative sign, it can be used to indicate inches of mercury below atmospheric.

Absolute vacuum is 0 psia, 0 torr, 0" of mercury, 0 microns.

No exceptions.


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> No it is not.
> 
> Now, if you put a negative sign, it can be used to indicate inches of mercury below atmospheric.
> 
> ...



Interestingly, my manifod gauge does showed negative sign in front of 30 but on super05's gauge, it only showed 30 inhgvac. This is why I considered minus/negative 30 to be in PSIG but not HG, unlike what super05 had said earlier.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Well, I am not trying to be an English master or an expert here. :biggrin2:
> 
> 
> My arguments are still valid and very logical.


Nope, try again.


DIY AC GUY said:


> Lol! My thread had reached 827 viewers. This must be a really hot thread! :biggrin2:


Threads easily hit 1k here when they go for a while. Means nothing. 

Cheers!


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> You are completely confused about the scales.
> 
> I took a picture of one is my older gauges just for you. Notice where the pen is, it says inches of mercury vacuum. That is not PSI anything.
> 
> ...



Quoted from super05




DIY AC GUY said:


> This is the AC Manifold Gauge that I am using but it shows Negative 30 PSIG in HQ VAC. (-30 PSIG in HQ VAC)
> 
> 
> Model: Panna 8 MG-2-R32 (Newer Gauge)
> ...



Quoted from my previous reply to super05


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Quoted from super05


This is why we keep saying that you don't understand the scales. It says Inches of Mercury of vacuum. (InHg Vac) It means that it's below atmospheric. 

Cheers!


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Nope, try again.Threads easily hit 1k here when they go for a while. Means nothing.
> 
> Cheers!



:vs_sob:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> This is why we keep saying that you don't understand the scales. It says Inches of Mercury of vacuum. (InHg Vac) It means that it's below atmospheric.
> 
> Cheers!



I was not talking about mercury level but about absolute vacuum with no air. Again, this thread is not about complete removal of mercury but it is about pressurized leak test under absolute vacuum (assuming that it is impossible to achieve -30 psig due to severe leaks). I don't have a vacuum gauge so I can only use PSIG. My manifold psig says -30 psig while yours says 30" inhgvac. I am concern about the compressed air but not mercury due to safety concern. Well, you don't seem to understand about psig scale either and this is why you don't admit that negative values and -30 psig vacuum exist. Go back and read my older posts. :biggrin2:


----------



## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

This is a DIY thread and not a Pro thread. This thread is about at what vacuum level is considered not to have air for temporary charge of refrigerant for leak test (Absolute Vacuum above -30 psig but below atmospheric pressure and not perfect vacuum by industrial standard)....


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Your gauge doesn't say -30 psi, it says -30"Hg (below atmospheric) 

I don't remember saying anything pro level above...

There shouldn't have been mercury in or around any of your systems. The closest you'll get is in an old thermostat. We are NOT, and never were talking about mercury inside the system. We are only talking about the measuring system. (which once upon a time used actual mercury, but no longer does.) 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Your gauge doesn't say -30 psi, it says -30"Hg (below atmospheric)
> 
> I don't remember saying anything pro level above..
> 
> Cheers!



Then you had just contradicted yourself since you denied that my manifold gauge has a negative/minus symbol in front of 30 below zero psig based on your previous replies on page 2 and page 3.. :biggrin2:
Yay!!! So I was right on this one. It is indeed negative 30 PSIG or negative 30 inHgvac. There is indeed a negative symbol in my ac manifold gauge under zero psig and a negative 1 bar of pressure.:boxing::devil3:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

I give up. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> I give up.
> 
> Cheers!



:vs_laugh::boxing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

supers05 said:


> I give up.
> 
> Cheers!



LOL, in 6 days he still hasn't leak checked his system, over his misunderstanding of what he is trying to do. After he does, he can come back and tell us how wrong we are. :vs_laugh:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

This is what all the manufacturers say to do.









Cheers!


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

To think, all these threads could be eliminated if proper procedures were followed for leak testing and evacuation. 
DIY doesn’t mean a difficult result will happen if corners are cut.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

This is what I read after researching on google about the so called Negative Pressure in PSIG or in negative value of psig unit but you guys don't have to agree with me but I think that it is worth to share it too. This is just my re-clarification on what I meant by negative Psig and not just mathematically but also technically.



The gauge pressure could either be positive or negative in PSIG. When it is positive, it is when it is at the atmospheric pressure or above atmospheric pressure. When it is negative, it is when it is under the atmospheric pressure (vacuum range). 



When the gauge pressure is negative in PSIG, it means that we have what was called "Vacuum Pressure" which is the opposite pressure from outside the ac coils rather than from inside the ac coils. Basically, there will always be pressure whether we are in a vacuum range or not. In the vacuum, we will get the opposite pressure so this is why if we already evacuate the ac system and turn off the vacuum pump and then if we open the valve then we will hear the air quickly rush/goes back into the ac system which makes a loud popping noise. This is due to opposite pressure or when the gauge pressure value is negative.


However, above all, I also do agree with you guys that traditionally, we would use vacuum gauge in micron for the vacuum or within the vacuum range rather than using the PSIG but there is nothing wrong in admitting that there is such thing as negative psig or negative pressure (opposite pressure). Also, if this happens on a planet that has a default atmospheric pressure under zero psia then don't be surprise why negative values would automatically be used unless if the pressure gauge does not have negative value which is obvious since we are on Earth (lowest value is zero psia for absolute pressure gauge). For instance, on Mars the atmospheric pressure is at 0.087 psia or 6.0 mbar and that is almost at zero psia therefore it is under zero psig so it would be negative 14.603 psig by default. Hate it or love it but that is the way it is on Mars...

For many DIYs like me, we need to spend more money to get a better result and not risking ourselves since some of us might not have enough tools like nitrogen cylinder. There are also other factors to put into consideration like if there is a severe leak (I'm just pretending) then there is no way that we can go under 500 microns for a long time even if we have all the tools we need and regardless to whether it is done by a DIY or a Pro. This thread is just about safely temporarily charging the ac system for leak test when there is no air at absolute vacuum regardless to whether there is still mercury in it under a severe leak scenario (to avoid compressing air which could be dangerous while it is impossible to also achieve under 500 microns). I wish that I have more money to spend on more tools. Looks like I better really get a vacuum gauge. Anyway, this is just for the sake of discussion. People should be free to discuss but should not commit a crime too.


Cheers! :biggrin2::boxing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

PSIA is absolute. So it can't be negative. As there really is not such thing as a vacuum. Only the absence of pressure. The same as there is no such thing as cold, only the absence of heat.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> PSIA is absolute. So it can't be negative. As there really is not such thing as a vacuum. Only the absence of pressure. The same as there is no such thing as cold, only the absence of heat.



I was talking about negative PSIG (for industrial usage) but not psia. The only reason why you cannot go under zero psia is simply because the lowest value on absolute pressure gauge that manufacturer allows is at zero psia since that gauge is used scientifically and only on planet Earth so nobody would go under zero psia with that type of gauge but however, mathematically it is possible. Mathematically, zero psia is negative 14.69 psig. Check the PSIG to PSIA conversion calculator.:biggrin2:


Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I was talking about negative PSIG (for industrial usage) but not psia. The only reason why you cannot go under zero psia is simply because the lowest value on absolute pressure gauge that manufacturer allows is at zero psia since that gauge is used scientifically and only on planet Earth so nobody would go under zero psia with that type of gauge but however, mathematically it is possible. Mathematically, zero psia is negative 14.69 psig. Check the PSIG to PSIA conversion calculator.:biggrin2:
> 
> 
> Cheers!


No, you're absolutely wrong. 

Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> I was talking about negative PSIG (for industrial usage) but not psia. The only reason why you cannot go under zero psia is simply because the lowest value on absolute pressure gauge that manufacturer allows is at zero psia since that gauge is used scientifically and only on planet Earth so nobody would go under zero psia with that type of gauge but however, mathematically it is possible. Mathematically, zero psia is negative 14.69 psig. Check the PSIG to PSIA conversion calculator.:biggrin2:
> 
> 
> Cheers!



No, 0 PSIA is 0 PSIA. Absolute. Can't be less than absolute. 





> if this happens on a planet that has a default atmospheric pressure under zero psia



You were talking negative PSIA, before you removed it from the post.


You keep using those calculators. They will mislead you wisely, and you'll get no where quickly.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> ...This thread is just about safely temporarily charging the ac system for leak test when there is no air at absolute vacuum regardless to whether there is still mercury in it under a severe leak scenario (to avoid compressing air which could be dangerous while it is impossible to also achieve under 500 microns). I wish that I have more money to spend on more tools. Looks like I better really get a vacuum gauge.
> ..:


You shouldn't be charging a unit that has a leak. You should be fixing the leak. You'll never achieve absolute vacuum, regardless of the situation, or this planet or otherwise. There's a procedure to follow, for good reason. If you don't follow it, you'll cause damage to your unit. 

If you can't afford the tools, then hire a pro. It'll be cheaper. 

PS. The calculators that you're using are wrong. They were programmed wrong. The programmer needs to learn the context of the formulas or there is always the risk that they will be wrong. 

Cheers!


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## 57TinkerMan (Jun 17, 2018)

DIY AC GUY said:


> ...but that is the way it is on Mars...



Of course, why would anyone think otherwise? This thread may be the best example of (humorous) trolling I've ever seen, intended or not. It's kind of addictive.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

57TinkerMan said:


> Of course, why would anyone think otherwise? This thread may be the best example of (humorous) trolling I've ever seen, intended or not. It's kind of addictive.


I was thinking the same thing. He is damn good at trolling, intentional or not. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

beenthere said:


> You were talking negative PSIA, before you removed it from the post.
> 
> 
> You keep using those calculators. They will mislead you wisely, and you'll get no where quickly.



Well, my previous post was mainly about negative psig than about negative psia and the vacuum pressure that happens when we go beyond atmosperic pressure on Earth. I did mentioned about negative psia but I was talking more about negative PSIG.



The reason to why I was mentioning about negative psia that can happen on other smaller planets is to give you an idea that if we are on other planets that have atmospheric pressure less than the one of Earth and lower than zero psia then maybe it is time for us to get used to negative psia or it is time to build a new absolute pressure gauge that will also include negative values of psia. Theoretically, in Astronomy and Physics, such planets like this might exist therefore you cannot use either current absolute pressure gauge and vacuum gauge either especially in this situation. You cannot escape/avoid negative value by default just like you cannot escape/avoid negative value under zero celsius/fahrenheit temperature on the Moon Titan which was the earlier example I made unless if you were trying to be a geek and use kelvin instead which is very uncommon unit to use for that subject. Anyway, you don't have to go to other planets just to understand my points but you can just use PSIG to PSIA conversion calculator on other website and get used to it. That's all. You can also argue with the conversion calculator, I don't mind. :biggrin2:


Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. He is damn good at trolling, intentional or not.
> 
> Cheers!



:vs_laugh::boxing:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> ...
> The reason to why I was mentioning about negative psia that can happen on other smaller planets is to give you an idea that if we are on other planets that have atmospheric pressure less than the one of Earth and lower than zero psia then maybe it is time for us to get used to negative psia or it is time to build a new absolute pressure gauge that will also include negative values of psia. ...


Not possible, by definition. 

Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> Not possible, by definition.
> 
> Cheers!



By astronomy and physics, it is a possibility. :glasses: Look at Dwarf Planets like Pluto for instance. Don't worry, it is just a matter of time when we will achieve interstellar space travel and finding one of these smaller planets with lower zero psia of atmospheric pressure. irate:



Welcome to the interstellar space age, Ladies and Gentlemen, where anything is possible with strange new worlds to explore!!!:euro::biggrin2:


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## 57TinkerMan (Jun 17, 2018)

DIY AC GUY said:


> You cannot escape/avoid negative value by default just like *you cannot escape/avoid negative value under zero celsius/fahrenheit temperature* on the Moon Titan which was the earlier example I made *unless if you were trying to be a geek and use kelvin instead* which is very uncommon unit to use for that subject.





Super, Your getting through ...I think he now understands that temperature, when using the absolute scale will not be a negative number. I think he owes you a beer or at least a box of Fudgee O Cookies. 



*Edit: Just saw the last post, your hosed...*


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

DIY AC GUY said:


> By astronomy and physics, it is a possibility. :glasses: Look at Dwarf Planets like Pluto for instance. Don't worry, it is just a matter of time when we will achieve interstellar space travel and finding one of these smaller planets with lower zero psia of atmospheric pressure. irate:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the interstellar space age, Ladies and Gentlemen, where anything is possible with strange new worlds to explore!!!:euro::biggrin2:


This isn’t a discussion on Uranus. Your questions were about how to pull a vacuum on an hvac system. How you took it this far off the rails, and why your proud of it, is a mystery to me.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

roughneck said:


> This isn’t a discussion on Uranus. Your questions were about how to pull a vacuum on an hvac system. How you took it this far off the rails, and why your proud of it, is a mystery to me.



Well, people can use that as an example to support their arguments in a discussion. :glasses: There is a connection and it is not irrelevant, anyway. Oh and besides, but who does not love Uranus? Well I do love Uranus too.:biggrin2::whistling2:


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> If you can't afford the tools, then hire a pro. It'll be cheaper.
> 
> PS. The calculators that you're using are wrong. They were programmed wrong. The programmer needs to learn the context of the formulas or there is always the risk that they will be wrong.
> 
> Cheers!



Well, excuuuuuuuse me, your highness :euro:but how can you expect that everyone is going to have enough money to even hire a pro in a long term if many DIYs do not even have enough money to buy some tools which could be quite expensive???:wheelchair: This is why there are many DIYs here and they got to do it by themselves in order to save more money. Also, not everyone are abide to US laws. I am not even in the US, your highness.... :red_indian:

And for the conversion calculator, you can argue with it or go and argue with the programmer who had programmed that PSIA to PSIG conversion calculator if you think that there is something wrong with it.:biggrin2:



Anyway, welcome to the DIY chat forum which also looks kinda lawless too! irate::zorro::ninja:


Cheers! :biggrin2:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Well, excuuuuuuuse me, your highness :euro:but how can you expect that everyone is going to have enough money to even hire a pro in a long term if many DIYs do not even have enough money to buy some tools which could be quite expensive???:wheelchair: This is why there are many DIYs here and they got to do it by themselves in order to save more money. Also, not everyone are abide to US laws. I am not even in the US, your highness.... :red_indian:
> 
> And for the conversion calculator, you can argue with it or go and argue with the programmer who had programmed that PSIA to PSIG conversion calculator if you think that there is something wrong with it.:biggrin2:
> 
> ...


This is a Canadian site that abides by US and Canadian law. DIY or not, there’s still a right way and a wrong way to do things. 
DIY doesn’t mean you cut corners and wind up with a flawless result. 
So either spend the money and buy the tools needed, rent them, or hire someone who has the tools needed to do the job right.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

DIY AC GUY said:


> . . . it is just a matter of time when we will achieve interstellar space travel and finding one of these smaller planets with lower zero psia of atmospheric pressure.



But I highly doubt they will need air conditioning (he said wondering if he should contribute to one of the most bizarre threads he has ever seen).


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> By astronomy and physics, it is a possibility...:


Nope. Again by definition it is NOT possible. 

Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

lenaitch said:


> ... (he said wondering if he should contribute to one of the most bizarre threads he has ever seen).


 I've given up. Maybe the earth is flat and the oceans are made of mercury..... Off to the store to see if Lead has recently become edible. 


Cheers!


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

grab me some Asbestos crackers while ur there.....


BTW, anyone remember playing with Mercury in your hand? We did this at school, it was so fun....... At least I know how I will die......lol


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> The reason to why I was mentioning about negative psia that can happen on other smaller planets is to give you an idea that if we are on other planets that have atmospheric pressure less than the one of Earth and lower than zero psia then maybe it is time for us to get used to negative psia or it is time to build a new absolute pressure gauge that will also include negative values of psia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Poorly written conversion programs can give you any bogus number you want to accept. Doesn't make them right.


And I am guessing you still didn't get your system leak check done.


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

roughneck said:


> This is a Canadian site that abides by US and Canadian law. DIY or not, there’s still a right way and a wrong way to do things.
> DIY doesn’t mean you cut corners and wind up with a flawless result.
> So either spend the money and buy the tools needed, rent them, or hire someone who has the tools needed to do the job right.



Hello there, dude! Should I call you a "Detective Rough"? :detective:Or maybe just "Rough"? :shurikenr maybe "R*dNeck"? :cowboy:OR maybe "Rogue"??? irate::saddam:sama::tank:Or what about "Rougy"??? :shaun: (similar to a dog's name)


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

roughneck said:


> This is a Canadian site that abides by US and Canadian law. DIY or not, there’s still a right way and a wrong way to do things.
> DIY doesn’t mean you cut corners and wind up with a flawless result.
> So either spend the money and buy the tools needed, rent them, or hire someone who has the tools needed to do the job right.



Well, I'm afraid that I have to say NO to the BIG BROTHERS! LONG LIVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! :chinese::hammer::vs_smirk:



No laws can violate free discussion and free speech of anyone here. This is a forum and not a place where people commits crime or risking to explode themselves into pieces.:2guns::gun_bandana:



My thread does not encourage anyone to violate any laws either but to just stop a discussion that you hate is kinda silly and too harsh. :innocent::rockon:


Hmmmmmmm... Looks like somebody really need good reading glasses here to read my posts and understand it better. :nerd::glasses:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Well, I'm afraid that I have to say NO to the BIG BROTHERS! LONG LIVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! :chinese::hammer::vs_smirk:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are quite rude, and insulting. 

We attempted to correct all of your false concepts and understandings. You are just plainly wrong on just about everything you've talked about. You are very unwilling to learn or take constructive criticism. You will confuse future readers. This thread will likely unnecessarily scare potential DIY'rs away and turn to pros. (which doesn't bother by check book.) So in the end, you haven't helped at all, but rather caused much more harm. 


Cheers!


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

supers05 said:


> You are quite rude, and insulting.
> 
> We attempted to correct all of your false concepts and understandings. You are just plainly wrong on just about everything you've talked about. You are very unwilling to learn or take constructive criticism. You will confuse future readers. This thread will likely unnecessarily scare potential DIY'rs away and turn to pros. (which doesn't bother by check book.) So in the end, you haven't helped at all, but rather caused much more harm.
> 
> ...



Chill out, dude, I was just joking to make the threads more interesting. Sometimes we need jokes too. Right???:biggrin2::vs_cool:


Just like how supply and demands work. :santa:



Wow, somebody cannot really take jokes in these days... :w00t: 

Sure, all my concepts on this thread are not valid and false and that is your so-called constructive counter arguments. Also, the conversion calculator was also wrong and its programmer does not know how to program it better. (My sarcasm) :vs_sob:

(Did not even realize that the smileys can be insulting too which are available here...) :glasses:


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## DIY AC GUY (Aug 12, 2018)

Well, looks like it is time to move on, folks. :euro:



Thanks everyone for replying and thanks to the viewers for reading. I hope that my thread is knowledgeable and educative in nature and also entertaining at the same time with a lot of sarcastic jokes. Good luck! :biggrin2:


PS: And... do not commit any crimes, folks. Follow your country's laws and you will be fine. :batman:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Chill out, dude, I was just joking to make the threads more interesting. Sometimes we need jokes too. Right???:biggrin2::vs_cool:
> 
> 
> Just like how supply and demands work. :santa:
> ...


I don't see any of your emojis, and i quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one before. 

Cheers!


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## viper (Jul 30, 2009)

WOW, WTF???
:vs_whistle::vs_whistle::vs_clap::vs_clap::vs_bananasplit::vs_bananasplit:

:vs_peace::vs_peace:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

DIY AC GUY said:


> Hello there, dude!



https://www.diychatroom.com/f114/diy-chatroom-community-rules-281002/






> 2. Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on DIY Chatroom.com. Ideas and opinions may be challenged, but name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned. Harassment will not be tolerated in this community. *This includes private messages, Avatars, Facebook and/or social media and user emails.*


*
*
Thread closed.*
*




PS: This is a privately owned site. Freedom of speech does not apply here.


An excerpt from the CBR forum rules that Cricket(The site Administrator )posted:




> *Does that mean we are limiting your right to free speech?*
> 
> Nope! You are 100% free to stand on the street corner and say whatever you want about what you believe. That is between you and your local law enforcement. You can write anything you want on your own website. That's between you and your hosting company and perhaps Homeland Security.
> 
> But here in the community, the owners of the DIY Chatroom, the Moderator Team and I get to choose where that line is drawn.


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