# outside stairs (deck)



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Use stair guides to layout the new stringers. screw blocking between the stringers and bolt this to the concrete. Use hangers or at least felt to avoid direct concrete to wood contact. You are only using pressure treated lumber so rotting should be reduced. use stainless steel screws not nails. But yes galvanized nails are available but will eventually corrode in pressure treated lumber. Use a preservative to protect all cut ends.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tnx for the reply Bob. so,the 2x12's should be PT? I guess the 2x6's to be used for the treads shoulld also be PT? is this a problem with primer? will primer adhere to PT lumber?

tnx,


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

You should wait about 6 months before putting a finish on pressure treated lumber. And then use a stain not paint. So no priming is needed. And yes the treads need to be pressure treated also. You might want to look at making a landing and breaking up that long run of stairs. Looks better and is more comfortable.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

All wood used outside should be PT, cedar or some other rot resistant wood. My stringers (PT) are bolted to 4x4 post on one side, the basement wall on the other - no contact with cement. The middle stringer sits on top of a piece of PT, if it rots in 10-15 years it can easily be replaced without effecting the stringer

I use the heavy duty PT treads - maybe 1 1/4" thick
PT can be stained, it needs to weather 1st


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

interesting replies :yes: you learn alot here!
so, I assume that the cuts in the stringers should be painted with preservative,maybe Cuprinol?
BTW, these stairs are original and the house is 30 years old! they seem to be in decent shape and the original lumber was probably not PT since it's painted.
how about the idea of laying an old stringer on top of a new 2x12 and tracing with a pencil for the cuts? I mean,the guy doing the work originally seemed to know what he was doing since the stairs are level and look fine.

tnx,


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Athough stainless steel fasteners are nice, they're not necessary or required. *Hot-dipped galvanized* fasteners are completely fine for ACQ treated lumber in exterior use, at about half the price (or less). Electro-galvanized fasteners are not adequate because they don't have nearly as much zinc on them.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> so, I assume that the cuts in the stringers should be painted with preservative,maybe Cuprinol?
> how about the idea of laying an old stringer on top of a new 2x12 and tracing with a pencil for the cuts? I mean,the guy doing the work originally seemed to know what he was doing since the stairs are level and look fine.
> tnx,


I've never coated any of my cuts, but a good idea
I used the pre-made PT stringers - so already cut & treated
As long as the stringer isn't warped & meets current stair codes I would use it as a template


----------



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Sometimes a small mistake could have been made in the cutting of your original stringers, and covered up by the use of a tapered wedge. Be careful to check this out as you trace your new wood. Use a framing square to check not only good, square 90 degree cuts, but also spacing between those cuts.

A landing is also great for handing heavy and/or bulky items to a friend... so you only carry them halfway.


----------



## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi There,
Here's my two cents (I recently completely rebuilt my porch stairs and learned a lot):

1) You said you will use 2X6 for treads? I assume this means you will use two of them on one tread with a small gap between for watershed? If so, then I would absolutely use the existing stringer as a template, after you verify everything on it is correct. I would still pull all your measurements, make sure everything is perfect on the old stringer before copying it blindly. Good to know how to build stairs.

2) Sometimes it's common to cut the stringer treads out of square by 3/16" or so to allow water to drain. I think since you will use the split tread method, having it all level is OK, too, but you will likely wind up with more ice buildup and quicker deterioration (if you're in a wintry climate).

3) I would use only screws (either stainless or coated deck screws) for assembling the staircase, and predrill the stringers to avoid splitting.

4) If you WANT to paint your staircase, hit the stringers with a palm sander before cutting. Then roll on some good primer. If not using PT for treads, definitely preprime the hell out of them (all sides), and especially seal your end cuts.

Then again, it's PT man. Just build the stairs and enjoy it for 30 years and let the next "Dutchman" rebuild them.

I wouldn't bother trying to attach them to the concrete footing, although a few tapcons couldn't hurt. LIke theother guy said, you can install some blocking at the bottom and anchor through that.

You might want to break up your long span by adding a few 4X4 posts in the middle of the staircase with some sort of header across them.

Good luck Man.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I also screw the stair treads in from underneath - no visible screws
I use metal brackets, more work, but a nice clean look
Also no chance of splinters or water soaking into the stair tread thru the screw hole


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

just curious: what's the scoop on those "pre-cut" stringers that I'm hearing about sometimes? you'd think it'd be impossible to predetermine the right angles and such.

tnx,ken


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Available in a standard rise and tread size, but not likely they will stock one for 13 steps. If yours seem to be comfortable trace the old as you planned to.


----------



## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

You might also want to consider these: http://www.ez-stairs.com/info_s/prod_h.htm


----------



## Shamus (Apr 27, 2008)

Not really much to add other than to agree with what's already been posted.

The suggestion about making a landing mid-point is a good idea. I don't know if you have room to make a 90* transition or just create a landing half way on the straight stairway. Either way it is both visually and practically a good idea to consider.

Keep 1 of the stringers intact as you remove the old stair, the best one. Using it as a template is fine. Although once you've laid out one it isn't all that difficult. Just make sure they are all identical. :thumbsup:


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> just curious: what's the scoop on those "pre-cut" stringers that I'm hearing about sometimes? you'd think it'd be impossible to predetermine the right angles and such.
> tnx,ken


I only had I think 6 steps, so HD has pre-cut PT stringers
7th step was the concrete landing


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I like the idea of putting a couple 4x4 posts in the middle of the stairs and putting a header on top of them to give some support midway to the stairs. should the cement for the posts be concrete or post cement? since I'm going to keep this house, I can foresee having to replace one of those posts someday and an 85 year old trying to break up concrete can't be a pretty sight (to say nothing of heart attacks!)

tnx,


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Cement is used to make concrete. Post cement is just a mix that cures quickly to set fence posts and such. To support a post for the stairs you need a foundation at least 8" - 10" (depends on local codes) as deep as your local frost line. I am in CT and here it is 42". Anything else the post will heave with freeze/thaw cycles and knock your stairs out of whack. Use a gravel mix cement like Sakcrete and a sono-tube to make these foundations for the posts. Keep the posts up from the cement with post supports. Tie these supports to the concrete with an anchor bolt.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

hey Bob, tnx for the reply. sounds like you're saying that these posts need a regular foundation as opposed to just putting the posts in the ground and filling the hole with cement.
so, I should dig a hole down to the frostline,fill the hole with concrete,set a post-holder into the concrete,let it set, then put the post into the holder. is that about right?

tnx,


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

That is correct


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

hot dip galvanized ok? trouble finding stainless nails for my nailer.

tnx,


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

yes that will be fine.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

anything good or bad to say about B&C Eagle nails? thinking of ordering some from Amazon. they call them 20-22 degree nails so must fit my 21 deg. nailer and they don't list the compatible nailers so I guess they're "universal".

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

what's better for exterior, ring shank or smooth nails?

tnx,


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*nice*



Scuba_Dave said:


> I also screw the stair treads in from underneath - no visible screws
> I use metal brackets, more work, but a nice clean look
> Also no chance of splinters or water soaking into the stair tread thru the screw hole


Good idea:thumbup:


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*Screws only*



analogmusicman said:


> hot dip galvanized ok? trouble finding stainless nails for my nailer.
> 
> tnx,


 
I have built a lot of stairs in my day and after 20 years I only use stanless screws of exterrior deck or stair apps. I like scuba-daves idea of putting them under the treads also. Galvanized will work and if you dont want to buy a screw gun then that would be your best choice. What brand is your nail gun??:thumbup:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

it's a Campbell-Hausfeld.
how would you put screws UNDER the treads? L brackets?

tnx,


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*humm*



analogmusicman said:


> it's a Campbell-Hausfeld.
> how would you put screws UNDER the treads? L brackets?
> 
> tnx,


 
Lets ask scuba-dave that?? His idea..:thumbup:


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*humm*



analogmusicman said:


> it's a Campbell-Hausfeld.
> how would you put screws UNDER the treads? L brackets?
> 
> tnx,


 
I dont know about your campbell-hausfeld. I have a 21 dregree synco framing nailer I like really well and dont have trouble finding my nails at the local lumber yard.:thumbup:


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> it's a Campbell-Hausfeld.
> how would you put screws UNDER the treads? L brackets?
> 
> tnx,


Yes - I used simpson L brackets under the stairs - I think they were 3" wide - so not a normal L bracket
I had cement block on the stairs & had my wife sit on them 
Then I screwed each one in - starting at the lowest step


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*Cool*



Scuba_Dave said:


> Yes - I used simpson L brackets under the stairs - I think they were 3" wide - so not a normal L bracket
> I had cement block on the stairs & had my wife sit on them
> Then I screwed each one in - starting at the lowest step


 I am going to try it soon as I can. thanks
:thumbup:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

hmmm...Texas, you and the Scuba just might be talking about different things 
anyways, what's better,ring shank or smooth nails?

tnx,


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

Ring. the rings hold better as the wood moves. The rings are very small though. Thats why screws are better. Also if repairs are ever needed much easier to remove screws than ring shanh nails. Good luck how ever you go. Have fun


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

does this look like a decent deal?
304 STAINLESS STEEL 3" x .120 *RING* STRIP NAILS 21° PLASTIC 1M BOX 
Price: $89.95 
Full Round Head, Ring shank
1000 count, 304 Grade Stainless
*FREE SHIPPING IN THE U.S.* 

I wonder,is .120 sufficient for stairs? the next size up is .131 for alot more.

tnx,ken


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*Sure*



analogmusicman said:


> does this look like a decent deal?
> 304 STAINLESS STEEL 3" x .120 *RING* STRIP NAILS 21° PLASTIC 1M BOX
> Price: $89.95
> Full Round Head, Ring shank
> ...


You get 2000 nails in a box right, thats $0.044975 per nail.:thumbup:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I thought 1M means ONE thousand :wink:

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

so,what's a "sonotube" anyway? and how would I use them to put a couple posts into the ground to support the stairs?

tnx,


----------



## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*Your right*



analogmusicman said:


> I thought 1M means ONE thousand :wink:
> 
> tnx,


 
I did not see that. I get boxes of nails at 2000 per box and assumied that would hold ture to the ones you found. Still not too bad, but I am cheep so I wopuld look some more unless I had been looking a long time. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

texas115115 said:


> I did not see that. I get boxes of nails at 2000 per box and assumied that would hold ture to the ones you found. Still not too bad, but I am cheep so I wopuld look some more unless I had been looking a long time. :thumbup::thumbup:


whew! thought I was gonna hafta divide everything you said by 2:thumbsup:


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Sono tube, and with post bracket


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I kinda had an idea of what they might be. now the important question:
my frost line here in colo. springs is 25 in. down. so I dig a hole how deep? does the top of the concrete have to be below 25 in. ? this will be a pretty deep hole!

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

took down a couple stringers today. looks like whoever built the stairs used roofing nails to secure the hangers. those nails came right out. scary to think that those stairs were held up all these years by some roofing nails that came right out. good thing none of us in the family are heavyweights or that we never had anything real heavy brought into the house via those stairs! (like a fridge)

tnx,ken


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> I kinda had an idea of what they might be. now the important question:
> my frost line here in colo. springs is 25 in. down. so I dig a hole how deep? does the top of the concrete have to be below 25 in. ? this will be a pretty deep hole!
> 
> tnx,


No - the top of the concrete is above ground level 
The bottom must be below the frost line
The bottom dirt/rockmust be tamped down hard before the concrete is poured


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> No - the top of the concrete is above ground level
> The bottom must be below the frost line
> The bottom dirt/rockmust be tamped down hard before the concrete is poured


whew...thought I was gonna hafta dig down to China 

the hangers that were used to hold the stringers up (see my previous post) look like regular joist hangers EXCEPT the top part is angled to accomodate the angle of the stringer as it goes down to the ground. anyone know if HD or Lowes sells these?

tnx,


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes - HD has the angled joist hangers
Lowes should have them too


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> I kinda had an idea of what they might be. now the important question:
> my frost line here in colo. springs is 25 in. down. so I dig a hole how deep? does the top of the concrete have to be below 25 in. ? this will be a pretty deep hole!
> 
> tnx,


Are you sure 25" is correct? On Long Island, NY it's 36"
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

pulling the hangers off left holes in the joist they were attached to. I want THESE to be attached well. is it ok tp put screws in there and what size? (stainless?)

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> Are you sure 25" is correct? On Long Island, NY it's 36"
> Ron


yeah, I've looked at several maps. the farther north you go,the deeper it gets,like northern Minn. is 5 feet!

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

HD and Lowes don't have the hanger I need,nobody does since whoever built the deck modified a standard joist hanger to do the job and a poor job it was. I'm seeing all sorts of things with this house which leads me to believe the building dept. must have been run by the previous owner's brother!

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

my daughter and son-in-law dug the hole where the sonotubes will go. the hole is about 3.5 feet deep. should I put the sonotubes in, backfill with dirt,tamp the dirt and THEN fill the tubes with concrete?

tnx,


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> my daughter and son-in-law dug the hole where the sonotubes will go. the hole is about 3.5 feet deep. should I put the sonotubes in, backfill with dirt,tamp the dirt and THEN fill the tubes with concrete?
> 
> tnx,


I would also put about 6" of small angular stone into the sonotube, after back filling, and tamp it down.
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

well,the hole is dug,the materials have been delivered and it's time to put concrete in the sonotubes. Lowe's sold me 8 bags of "redi-mix",4 per tube. I was gonna just mix it a bag at a time and shovel it in. is there a reason why I should rent a mixer?

tnx,


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I did one bag at a time in a wheel barrow
Made it easier to dump it in the tube


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

about the 4x4 holder that sits on top of the concrete: is there a recommended height for it? the existing ones that hold up my deck have 2.5 in. of that 1 in. dia. round thingie showing.

tnx,


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> about the 4x4 holder that sits on top of the concrete: is there a recommended height for it? the existing ones that hold up my deck have 2.5 in. of that 1 in. dia. round thingie showing.
> 
> tnx,


 Try looking at the manufacturers site for specific hardware instructions.
Ron


----------



## DecksEtc (Feb 8, 2005)

Ron6519 said:


> I would also put about 6" of small angular stone into the sonotube, after back filling, and tamp it down.
> Ron


Sorry but that's a waste of time and money.

Completely unnecessary for footings.

BTW, the stone is recommended for the bottom of the hole for fence posts.


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry but that's a waste of time and money. Not according to the manufacturer.
 
Completely unnecessary for footings. Only if it's resting on undisturbed soil. Very hard to do, 3-5' down.
 
BTW, the stone is recommended for the bottom of the hole for fence posts.  And anytime the concrete is not resting on undisturbed soil. To get a better (think more solid) base, not full of dirt clumps.


After you install a footing, the loads are transferred down to the earth. You want a good full contact. The tamped rock helps attain this when you are unable to clean the disturbed soil away to get a smooth base. Second choice would be tamped rock, last choice (the worst) is loose dirt still in the hole from the digging implement. 

Sonotube's recommendations for footing use:

http://www.sonotube.com/products/tubebase_install.html See the whole idea, using it alone as a footing. 

Be safe, G


----------



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> I thought 1M means ONE thousand :wink:
> 
> tnx,


As a carpenter, you are perfectly correct.

M= one thousand board feet. Always has. But this is how it is seen today (outside the lumber yard)

*M [1]* an informal abbreviation for million in expressions such as "$500M" for 500 million dollars or "Unemployment Reaches 4M" in a newspaper headline. 

In binary contexts such as computer memory, M often represents 220 = 1 048 576 

*M [2]* the Roman numeral 1000, sometimes used in symbols to indicate a thousand, as in *Mcf*, a traditional symbol for 1000 cubic feet. 

Given the widespread use of M to mean one million, this older use of M to mean one thousand is very confusing and probably should be scrapped.


----------



## DecksEtc (Feb 8, 2005)

GBAR in WA said:


> Sorry but that's a waste of time and money. Not according to the manufacturer.
> 
> Completely unnecessary for footings. Only if it's resting on undisturbed soil. Very hard to do, 3-5' down.
> 
> ...


Please show me where in the Building Code that it states that the above method is required?

I have NEVER once had a building dept./inspector tell me to put clear stone at the bottom of a deck footing, EVER.

Until this happens, I won't be wasting any time/money on dumping clear stone at the bottom of my footings.

All of my decks are plenty safe, thank you very much.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I've always used a 4x4 post to tamp my holes down
But if it seems muddy I also toss some rock in & tamp again
I hit ledge in most holes at this house

Sometimes common sense is a step above code


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

DecksEtc said:


> Please show me where in the Building Code that it states that the above method is required?
> 
> I have NEVER once had a building dept./inspector tell me to put clear stone at the bottom of a deck footing, EVER.
> 
> ...



Piers for decks and such via sono tubes are supported by surface friction around the concrete column and support as little to do with support carried to the bottom of the pier. If it was as GBAR states, then we would be using a footing like we do with foundation walls.


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> Piers for decks and such via sono tubes are supported by surface friction around the concrete column and support as little to do with support carried to the bottom of the pier. If it was as GBAR states, then we would be using a footing like we do with foundation walls.


Bob, sorry. I don't follow what this means.
Ron


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

The condition at the bottom of a sono tube is not that important. The load that a pier can support is based on the total surface area (friction) around the pier. This is why some areas want 12" not 8" tubes for decks.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I had to doubt that most support is from friction
Considering that these holes are backfilled & probably not tamped down tight by most people

But appears to be true, provided soil is tamped down



> But the real solution is to make larger and deeper piers, so they do not sink. Larger (as in larger diameter) piers will have greater end bearing capacity on the soil on their bottom end, however, most pilings (you did say they were 8 feet long, so I would call that a piling instead of a pier) get their support from surface friction with the earth.
> 
> Let's say that the soil will support a load of only 1500 pounds per sq ft, take a piling which has a diameter of 8 inches, that's 50 sq inches end bearing, which is 1500 / 144 x 50 = 520 pounds of bearing support.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

This exterior surface friction that is supposed to be holding this pier in place as opposed to the end support of the concrete on a tamped base. How is that achieved with a homeowner with a post hole digger? These holes are often(always?) rather larger then the hole the sonotube goes into. The tube is centered and the hole is backfilled. Is it tamped every 6" or so ,so it's packed in? Doubtful. It's more often filled to the top and stepped on a few times and soil added until it doesn't compact any more.
I can't see too much side friction in this scenario. 
Does it build up over time as the soil wets and compacts naturally?
Ron


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I actually pack mine down with a sledge hammer
But that's just me
With rain etc I would assume the dirt settles
My last house I put 4x4 PT in the ground & used a sledge to compact rock around them. I didn't use any concrete & they never moved. They were used to build an 8' high lattice wall around my patio


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I actually pack mine down with a sledge hammer
> But that's just me
> With rain etc I would assume the dirt settles
> My last house I put 4x4 PT in the ground & used a sledge to compact rock around them. I didn't use any concrete & they never moved. They were used to build an 8' high lattice wall around my patio


 Dave, for every Extreme DIY guy there are hundreds of Fast Eddy's who barely let the concrete fill the tube before they're throwing load on these piers. The deck is built before the pier concrete has cured and definitely before the dirt surrounding the piers has had a chance to settle.
So initially it's the bottom of the pier that does the support. Unless I'm missing something.
This side friction must build up over time, varying due to soil composition and tamping vigilence.
Ron


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, that's why I kinda doubted it & searched the web for info
I was sort of surpised to find the info & the amount of support provided by friction
I wonder if this also comes into play with a foundation
I know (most) foundations have footers
Just wondering if this is taken into account somewhere for load bearing

My main reason for tamping was that I didn't want the cement piers to fall over

Actually the info I found (re-reading) was on pilings - which are driven into the soil. So I can see how that has friction support


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Take a soup can in the yard and step on it. Then remove the soup can's lids, step on it. Hmmmm. Anyway's I did some research on gravel under the footing and piers. Wow, I learned a lot. The gravel prevents the capillary water action from saturating the soil under the sonotube or footing, which in turn can freeze, from contact with the freezing water above the frost line. Called frost heaving, or jacking. 

Even the size of gravel makes a difference. Page 32, in Pro Hint:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1g...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA31,M1

And diagram 28- gravel for drainage. Did you read how to size a sonotube rated on load, cool. 

Redibase says their tubes need footings, and gravel:

http://www.redibase-form.com/pages/frost.html

Those are just some articles that say tubes need a footing base to protect against frost heave. 

Just google "frost heave" or "ice lenses". I did not know this:http://www.oikos.com/esb/43/foundations.html

Gravel under decks, outbuilding footings: http://www.sustland.umn.edu/implement/deck_footings.html

I hope everyone learns something, I did. Be safe, G


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

well,stairs almost done. (I'll post some pix when actually finished) time to think about the railing. the one I removed and plan to re-use has a slight problem: the "balusters used 30 years ago were rough and around 1.75 square. I can't seem to find those, only the newer kind which are 1.5 square and finished. that newer kind won't match the rest of the deck. some of the old balusters are split. (not rotten but split) can I rescue those split balusters by pouring a generous "glob" of waterproof glue into the split or are they gonre for good?

tnx,


----------



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

you can try mixing sawdust and titbond glue to use as a glue/filler to fix these. Just fill, clamp, let dry then sand smooth. Use titebond type III glue and another exterior water based glue.


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

If the split pickets are not next to each other, you might try glue. The handrail/guardrail assembly is supposed to withstand 200# of side force to it, as per safety code. When mine split, it is always the grain in the nail or fastener, which greatly compromises the holding power. Be safe, G


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

GBAR in WA said:


> If the split pickets are not next to each other, you might try glue. The handrail/guardrail assembly is supposed to withstand 200# of side force to it, as per safety code. When mine split, it is always the grain in the nail or fastener, which greatly compromises the holding power. Be safe, G


 
well,that's interesting. kinda wondered about that. so,how would one know if his railing is up to snuff force wise? is there a "rule of thumb"? is that 200# number something the building code guys made up or is it real? maybe if a 200# guy can't break it it's ok? I weigh almost 200 so if I fall against the railing and it doesn't break,it's ok?

tnx,


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> well,that's interesting. kinda wondered about that. so,how would one know if his railing is up to snuff force wise? is there a "rule of thumb"? is that 200# number something the building code guys made up or is it real? maybe if a 200# guy can't break it it's ok? I weigh almost 200 so if I fall against the railing and it doesn't break,it's ok?
> 
> tnx,


 The building code guys made it up. They do this stuff all the time.
I once saw two of them get in a car and laugh their asses off after they told this guy building a deck that he had to use metric lag bolts to hold the posts to the deck.
Maybe the KCtermite will pop in, I'm sure he has a few stories.
Ron


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I worked two months in same development building houses. One local Safety and Health Safety Inspector would stop at my house every week on his rounds to unload on me instead of his wife. Twice he investigated deaths on different job-sites, for fault citations, during that period. 

Yes, it is a minimum safety code: (opposite the picture of rail failure that killed a young man)

http://www.nadra.org/industry_news/april07_woodbits.pdf Be safe, G


----------



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

I enjoyed the "friction" comments.

But I'm afraid you won't find much in the way of friction suspension in the short Sonotubes we use. Friction certainly does play an important part in the piling support we drive on large commercial jobs. However, those piles are not only very, very long... and sometimes tapered... but they are "Driven" into undisturbed soil that exerts pressure against the sides of the pile from its displacement. Not to mention the fact that soils get harder and more dense as you go deeper. Pile drivers count the impacts and pile movement to determine when they have achieved sufficient resistance to support the calculated loads anticipated. The pile dang near comes to a full stop in terms of appreciable penetration before it's good enough.

Additionally, most of our piles are NOT driven plumb, straight down. They are often driven at opposing angles to adjacent piles... sometimes three for four in a group... and they are then all tied together by pouring a huge block of formed concrete around the tops of all of them together. It's called a Pile Cap, and the structure is then built on top of dozens.. or hundreds... of the caps, using them as foundational bases.

Trust me, we have to build huge buildings right at the sea shore all the time, and it ain't just some shallow Sonotube friction that we rely upon.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

ok,here are some pics of the stairs minus the railing. (haven't quite decided what to do there although I'm pretty sure that rescuing the old balusters isn't in the plans)

tnx.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Looks nice !!
I still need to put the handrail up on my steps (only 6)
One side is the deck, the other side is the garage wall
If we can only get some decent weather


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Pretty good looking job.
How are the 4x4's under the stringers holding that structure up?
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> Pretty good looking job.
> 
> 
> > How are the 4x4's under the stringers holding that structure up?
> ...


 
well actually,Ron,the stairs are held up in exactly the same way the old stairs were: a joist hanger on each stringer is attached to the end joist of the deck. I don't consider this sufficient since the joist is only 1.5 wide,although it DID last 30 years. my 4x4 arrangement will only come into play,if and when something really heavy is taken up those stairs (like a piano maybe) then,the downward forces will be transfered down to the concrete via the header and uprights.

tnx,


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> well actually,Ron,the stairs are held up in exactly the same way the old stairs were: a joist hanger on each stringer is attached to the end joist of the deck. I don't consider this sufficient since the joist is only 1.5 wide,although it DID last 30 years. my 4x4 arrangement will only come into play,if and when something really heavy is taken up those stairs (like a piano maybe) then,the downward forces will be transfered down to the concrete via the header and uprights.
> 
> tnx,


You will need something besides the little triangular blocks between the stringers and the 4x4's. I would attach horizontal blocking between the stringers over the 4x4 horizontal and the use an appropriate attachment device(s) to unitize the support.
The triangular blocking, tacked into the stringer will not provide the support you indicate it will.
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> You will need something besides the little triangular blocks between the stringers and the 4x4's. I would attach horizontal blocking between the stringers over the 4x4 horizontal and the use an appropriate attachment device(s) to unitize the support.
> The triangular blocking, tacked into the stringer will not provide the support you indicate it will.
> Ron


well,Ron,I DID consider that the triangular blocks were rather skimpy and planned to put some heavy duty L brackets (bent to the correct angle) between the stringers and the header. does this seem ok or should I go with some scrap 2x6 as blocking between the stringers which would rest on the header?

tnx.


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> well,Ron,I DID consider that the triangular blocks were rather skimpy and planned to put some heavy duty L brackets (bent to the correct angle) between the stringers and the header. does this seem ok or should I go with some scrap 2x6 as blocking between the stringers which would rest on the header?
> 
> tnx.


Depends, how much does the piano weigh?
From my view, the top of the 4x4 should be under a support that rests directly on top of it, not a stringer at an incline.
Two sets of a double framing , 2x6 or larger. One set between each pair of stringers, resting directly on the 4x4 top. Maybe using upside down installed joist hangersto hold them in place and eliminate upward movement. You would still need a connection between the blocking and the 4x4s. Maybe a few mending plates to eliminate any lateral movement, bolted into each member.
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> Depends, how much does the piano weigh?
> From my view, the top of the 4x4 should be under a support that rests directly on top of it, not a stringer at an incline.
> Two sets of a double framing , 2x6 or larger. One set between each pair of stringers, resting directly on the 4x4 top. Maybe using upside down installed joist hangersto hold them in place and eliminate upward movement. You would still need a connection between the blocking and the 4x4s. Maybe a few mending plates to eliminate any lateral movement, bolted into each member.
> Ron


 
here's what I've come up with:
my blocking will be 2 pieces of scrap 4x4 between stringers sitting on the header. "L" brackets will secure the blocking to the stringers. mending plates will secure the blocking to the header. when this is done,I'll post a pic.
about the railing I've ripped some 2x6 to create my own balusters which have the needed 1.75 so my nails won't protrude.

tnx,


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

here's a pic of how I arranged the extra support for my stairs. (and a pic of the stairs with the railing attached)
taking Ron's advice, the downward weight no longer is transfered from the incline of the stringers to the header but now goes straight down to the header via four big "L" brackets bolted to the stringers.

tnx,


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

That looks like it will hold
Are those thru bolts ?


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> That looks like it will hold
> Are those thru bolts ?


no,they're 1.5 in. long lags.

tnx,


----------



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Bring on the Steinway!
Nice job.
Ron


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

well,actually,the piano was only figurative, I don't really have a particular one in mind BUT, if a couple sneaky piano "reverse thieves" were to clandestinely bring one up those stairs in the middle of the night, the stairs would hold!:thumbsup:

tnx,


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

That looks stronger then anything I have ever seen holding up stairs :thumbup:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> That looks stronger then anything I have ever seen holding up stairs :thumbup:


 
I wanted to make sure that if and when something real heavy goes up those stairs,bad things don't happen. I guess that's just the way I am.:thumbsup:
Incidentally, I'm getting plenty of compliments about the stairs. I tell 'em firstly God is the carpenter,not me. He used the folks in DIY forum to guide me along so everything would turn out well.

tnx,


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Looking good, almost there. Just need a handrail/pickets on the other side up to the house, a grip-able handrail mounted to the 2x6 holding your pickets on, and maybe some 1-1/2" pavers at the bottom (to make up the difference of not subtracting your first tread thickness when bottom riser was cut) at 3' wide by 4' deep. 

Here's a great site showing the grip-able (minimum code) handrail, that no treads/risers differ more than 3/8", and all picket spacing max. 4"( hopefully used screws): http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006 Stair IRC SCREEN.pdf Be safe, G


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Instead of the pavers, just cut 1-1/2" off the bottom of each stringer, where they touch the concrete. Pull the last riser (have to cut it too), lay your saw on it's side. Correct me if I'm wrong- all the risers should be the same height. Concrete to top of tread, top of tread to top of tread.

Don't forget to cut 3/8" ?? off the posts, too. Afterward, install some Simpson PC's for a positive connection. http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_caps.html Be safe, G


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

there is no handrail on the house side for a reason: the entire house will be stucco'ed as soon as my wife and I can afford it. that means that the stairs will be taken down and put back,THEN the handrails will go on.
yes,the stairs can be taken down fairly easily with the removal of some screws and a couple "tapcons".(and I'll also have to cut a couple nails with my recip saw.

tnx,


----------

