# Metal Roof Questions



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

I need some professional advice regarding a metal roof I am having installed. From what I've read here, this is a great place to ask. 

The roof is a 26ga, 1-1/2" mechanically crimped double lock standing seam. No hips, no valleys. Low slope, 1/12 and 2/12.

1-Should a slip sheet of red resin paper by applied under the metal or will the metal not stick to the WintergardHT (100% coverage) over time?

2-Should there be cleats installed behind the drip and rake edges?

3-Should the corners where the edge and rake meet, meet evenly?

4-How should the rake edge panels be flashed?

5-How far apart should the floating clips be placed?

6-Should oil canning be evident immediately, even before the seaming is done?
-------------------
1.Yes.
2.Not to the locking strip. It gets nailed 4" oc. Panel cleats start directly above drip-edge.
3. Not sure what you mean. I run my roof so rake panels are close to the same width. 
4.The outer edge is locked to a drip-edge there with 1/2" play for expansion.
5. 12" OC. 
6. No. It's a sign the cleats are too tight to the panels eliminating roof for expansion and contraction.
Here's a recent tin roof. There are many detail pix on my site and links to another site.

http://www.albertsroofing.com/Tin Roofing photo_gallery.htm


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> I need some professional advice regarding a metal roof I am having installed. From what I've read here, this is a great place to ask.
> 
> The roof is a 26ga, 1-1/2" mechanically crimped double lock standing seam. No hips, no valleys. Low slope, 1/12 and 2/12.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the timely reply tinner. Looks like you do some amazing work! I briefly thought about doing this job myself, but after doing some research I quickly realized it would be best left to a professional.

I would just like to clarify a couple of things.

1-So without the slip sheet, the metal _will_ stick to the Wintergard and that will prevent the panel from moving during normal thermal expansion cycles. Is the slip sheet required by code anywhere that you know of?

2-The cleats I'm referring to run the full length of the drip/rake edge flashing and would be screwed to the facia and then the drip/rake edge flashing would hook onto the cleat and then be screwed to the deck. As it is, where the ends of each flashing piece butt together, they don't line up to each other, and it is unsightly. No nails were used anywhere, it was screwed to the deck every 3 feet or so. Is this sufficient?

3-Oops! I meant to say where the lowest edges of the drip edge and the rake edge flashing meet at the corners. Should they not be even and not offset by a quarter to a half of an inch?

4-The outside 'leg' of the standing seam was ripped off the panel then the cut edge was tucked into a piece of flat stock with one edge having a inch wide double 180 degree fold (p-mould?), and then caulked. This 'p-mould' was caulked and screwed, every 3 feet or so, on top of the rake edge flashing before the panel was installed. They probably used four cases of caulk on the entire 29 square roof! Seems like a lot to me.

5-The panel cleats (floating clips) are not hand-crafted as seen in your photos. Each is a two piece set--a six inch piece of 90 deg. angle with the center 4.5" of the corner removed and a three inch wide 's' shaped piece of galvanized that hooks into the missing corner of the angle and then hooks over the panel. The angle is then double screwed to the deck. They installed these every 5 or 6 feet. Is this sufficient? The top end of each panel also has a single screw in the center of the pan. This screw is hidden by the ridge cap. I guess any expansion is going to happen at the eave then.

6-With this style of panel cleat, I don't see how they can be installed too tight. When fully extended the cleats are 1-13/16" tall and the standing seam is 1-1/2" tall. Are there any other reasons for the oil-canning? The panels are about 18" wide with double half inch wide, evenly spaced striations running the entire length. Oddly enough, I was told these striations would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, the oil canning.

Thanks again for your input and I apologize for being so long winded.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Lighter gages (26,29) will naturally show more oil-canning than heavier gages, even with striations. However, if the panels are stressed even slightly when installed, this will compound oil-canning. This is usually caused by some clips being installed tighter against the panel than others on the same panel. 

Metal is a rigid material and if not installed the way it wants to rest, it retaliates.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Those floating cleats meant the roof doesn't touch the underlay.
5-6' apart for cleats are OK for winds up to 10 mph. Sounds like a jackleg install to me. 
Virtually No caulk is necessary for a properly installed roof.
I only use it when using steel to short-circuit capilary action when doing certain lap joints. Screws don't normally go into the fascia either.
Did you hire ashingle nailer that just said "I can do that too?"


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Lighter gages (26,29) will naturally show more oil-canning than heavier gages, even with striations. However, if the panels are stressed even slightly when installed, this will compound oil-canning. This is usually caused by some clips being installed tighter against the panel than others on the same panel.
> 
> Metal is a rigid material and if not installed the way it wants to rest, it retaliates.


Thanks OldNBroken. Understood. I'm certain that is at least part of the problem. Perhaps the new deck they put down is not perfectly flat as well?

Is the oil canning purely a cosmetic issue or does it compromise the structural integrity of the roof also? Fortunately, if just cosmetic that is, the low slope of the roof hides the oil canning from view except when on the roof.

Any thoughts on my other points?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

All mfrs will have an oil-canning disclaimer for their system, even the upper-end systems I do. In most cases it is strictly cosmetic and will not affect the function of the system. Yes, the flatness (or lack thereof) of the roofdeck will affect how the panels lay and the roofer can only do the best they can to alleviate this problem. We always have that fight on most existing structures as well as many new ones. 

The cleats you refer to we call wind cleats/clips. Around here anyone worth their salt uses them as much as possible as they serve both an engineering purpose as well as asthetics. 
Unfortunately 90% of installers are basically roofers who install metal roofs and only know enough about metal to be able to collect the check at the end of the job. Therefore we rarely see them using silly things such as wind cleats, edge stiffener, head closures or other annoyingly time-consuming accessories. Instead they replace them with screws and caulk. There are very very few areas or instances we will ever use any, or no more than a small amount of caulk on any given roof. Caulk without some type of mechanical seal behind it is never anything more than a temporary water stop and will cause problems in the future. Caulk is the lazy roofers solution to keeping water out.

Any time you are going over ice/water, especially if it is granulated, you will want some type of a slip sheet. It's not as much for it sticking to it as it is the abrasion from rubbing against it while it moves. 

Any time a panel is cut at the rake, the new edge should be folded up about the same height as the factory legs, to ensure a mechanical water stop, before the rake flashing is installed. just leaving it flat is asking for problems on that rake sometime in the future. 

This does not mean all their systems fail and I am not saying your roof is done right or wrong. It just sounds, as Frank said, like a roofer who also installs metal did your roof. 

Lucky (or unfortunately) for many homeowners, their structures are not very large. Therefore the physics of metal and mother nature do not have as great an effect on their system as larger buildings.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken, thanks. I guess I can live with the oil canning as long as it is strictly cosmetic as you say. As I mentioned, it is not visible from the ground. There is probably a combination of reasons going on in this regard.

Are these the wind clips you are familiar with?









Do you think the 5 to 6 foot spacing is sufficient with these?

This is how I thought the drip edge detail should look.

View attachment DripEdgeDetail.pdf


Is the cleat in the drawing what you refer to as an edge stiffener? My install looks like this minus the cleat and screw.

Naturally, the contractor promised me a "top notch" roof. He said he has a dedicated metal crew. "Meticulous attention to detail" was promised.The lead guy seemed to know his stuff but I believe he is somewhat handcuffed by the contractor cutting corners and trying to make some extra profit off my back.

I'll have more later, but now I gotta run to visit a friend in the hospital. Sad, especially at this time of year.

I'll talk to you guys soon.

Thanks again!


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

5-6' is not sufficiant most manu.want them no further apart that 2'
your edge detail is correct

these Atas panels?The ''joggle'' cleat should run full length


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Before I go scaring you please remember what I said about resi's being smaller structures therefore they aren't normally subject to the same degree of stresses and movements of larger buildings so don't take what I say as "your roof is going to fall off".
I know they exist and are standard on many lower-end systems but 2-pc clips are not allowed on any of my specs for two main reasons. 
1. That clip is two pieces of stamped 24ga metal and does not have much structural strength. Any clip or cleat should be minimum of 22ga.
2. When using those clips they are the weak link in your roof. The only thing holding the panel to the roof is that fold in the upper piece of 24ga material. 
I have seen roofs fail in nominal winds by the clips separating from themselves as well as by the whole clip tearing off the screws fastening it to the deck. 

Although many of my wind uplift calcs allow for 5-7' clip spacing on projects, these are fully engineered systems. Yours is not an engineered system and Tom is correct. That clip style spaced that far apart is leaving you very little holding your roof on in any amount of wind. I would have serious concerns with that. 

As far as your detail you posted, yes that is a good example of a continuous wind cleat and we use them standard whenever possible. The eave detail shown there is used on some systems and by some people but not on others.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> 5-6' is not sufficiant most manu.want them no further apart that 2'
> your edge detail is correct
> 
> these Atas panels?The ''joggle'' cleat should run full length


Thanks tomstruble, I'm trying to get the manufacturer specs on installation details--no luck yet.

When you say my edge detail is correct, do you mean the drawing is correct or the way it was actually done, minus the cleat in the drawing, is correct? 

I'm not certain who made the coil stock-it's galvalume with a Valspar coating and 50 year warrantee. It was formed into panels and trim by Willoughby Supply in northern Ohio.

What's the "joggle" cleat. Is it the uninstalled cleat in the drawing?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

I was just saying the drawing is one installation spec, but not the only one. Most resi jobs I see the installers don't take the time for any type of eave detail. They just give it some overhang and leave it bare. 

Unless there is a system warranty I don't know of any mfr detail going to show exact clip spacing as that would put them in a liability situation if someone's roof were to fail. You can find details on how the clip is installed and that's about it. The only proper way to know proper clip spacing is to have an engineer do wind uplift calcs on your specific building with your specific roofing. Not feasible or done much at all on residential roofs though. Even without em, can tell you 5' is wayyyy too far apart.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Before I go scaring you please remember what I said about resi's being smaller structures therefore they aren't normally subject to the same degree of stresses and movements of larger buildings so don't take what I say as "your roof is going to fall off".
> I know they exist and are standard on many lower-end systems but 2-pc clips are not allowed on any of my specs for two main reasons.
> 1. That clip is two pieces of stamped 24ga metal and does not have much structural strength. Any clip or cleat should be minimum of 22ga.
> 2. When using those clips they are the weak link in your roof. The only thing holding the panel to the roof is that fold in the upper piece of 24ga material.
> ...


OlNBroken, Not scared, yet, but very seriously concerned. Some of the runs are over forty feet long in a single piece.

I mic'ed each of the clip pieces. The bottom is around .050" (18 ga) and ,yes, the top is only 24 ga, I measured about .025". So as you say it is still the weak point of the assembly. On top of that, with three holes for screws in the bottom half, they only used two of them.

I was able to confirm the spacing they used on the panel cleats from some photos I took during the install. They put one about every other course of the Wintergard, or about six foot apart. The drip edge is screwed at about two foot intervals.

The eave detail drawing is what I expected in a top notch roof. I'll post later about the rake edge detail used.

Thanks


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

''joggle cleat''is one manufacturers name for a z shape piece that trims and pans get locked in to

first clip should be no more than 6'' from the end of the panel,1 screw per bracket


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes, only need two screws per clip, but what type of screw did they use? Yes, that clip is the weak link in your system.
Regardless of the system or clip placement in the field, it is standard practice to put one clip <6" from eave and ridge and the next clip within 24" of that clip. In the field 36-42" is usually comfortable.

As I said about your eave detail. It would be nice if more installers would put a little more into their details but, unfortunately the majority either don't know how or don't care.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> ''joggle cleat''is one manufacturers name for a z shape piece that trims and pans get locked in to
> 
> first clip should be no more than 6'' from the end of the panel,1 screw per bracket


Tom, is this the "joggle cleat"? They called them "Z" mould. They are 26 ga and used to secure the ridge cap and to flash the skylights. Note the nice protective film, I wonder how much of that they forgot the remove!























The first clips are no where near the ends of the panel.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Yes, only need two screws per clip, but what type of screw did they use? Yes, that clip is the weak link in your system.
> Regardless of the system or clip placement in the field, it is standard practice to put one clip <6" from eave and ridge and the next clip within 24" of that clip. In the field 36-42" is usually comfortable.
> 
> As I said about your eave detail. It would be nice if more installers would put a little more into their details but, unfortunately the majority either don't know how or don't care.


OldNBroken, here is a shot of the screws they used, looks like #8's.









The foto in my last post shows no clips anywhere near 24" from the end, let alone 6". These fotos show how they spaced the clips in the field. In the second one, the first two clips look like they're 8 or 9 feet apart.
















I appreciate all your help guys, I'll have more questions tomorrow-getting sleepy.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Am glad you didn't show us a picture of deck screws or something with no shear strength otherwise your roof may have looked like this...
I didn't know this was a metal deck they were going over.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

no thats a z closeure,i probably shouldn't have used the term as it may just be specific to one particular manu.Those drill point screws are generally used for attaching the clips to metal framing,i wonder if having a drill point reduces the holding power in roof sheathing?


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> no thats a z closeure,i probably shouldn't have used the term as it may just be specific to one particular manu.Those drill point screws are generally used for attaching the clips to metal framing,i wonder if having a drill point reduces the holding power in roof sheathing?


OK Tom, I got off my butt and googled joggle cleat, and now it's clear. Looks like they would especially be used to attach the panels in the valleys.

Good point on the screws, no pun intended. Moreover, the threads are not cut very deep like you would find on a wood screw either. That's bothersome.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

Holy Moly on the wind damage! I hope that's not in my future.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

That's why I asked about the deck because those are metal screws. Wood screws have a much courser thread. Min we use is #12

This was a combination of clip failure and half the clips were installed with drywall screws. some of the clips at the perimeter were intact but straightened out vertically by the wind getting under the panel.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> That's why I asked about the deck because those are metal screws. Wood screws have a much courser thread. Min we use is #12
> 
> This was a combination of clip failure and half the clips were installed with drywall screws. some of the clips at the perimeter were intact but straightened out vertically by the wind getting under the panel.


No, it's not a metal deck. All brand new OSB installed by them, 7/16" on 16" centers. I went with the 26 ga instead of the 24 ga because the panels were going on a solid deck. 

The screw holes in the clips are nearly a quarter inch in diameter and could easily accommodate a #12 screw.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

clip spacing may also have a part in the oil canning,but i'd want the clips space way closer and accept the oil can

usually after the finish weathers somewhat,it usually becomes less noticeable,the caveat is as long as the metal isn't kinked which i believe could eventually crack over time


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OK OldNBroken, now I'm getting scared. Now let's see if I can get a full blown coronary! Am I understanding proper rake treatment?

This drawing illustrates how I expected the rake detail to be handled.

View attachment ExpectedRakeEdgeDetail.pdf


And I learned from this site that this detail is fully acceptable as well, if not preferred.

View attachment LearnedRakeEdgeDetail.pdf


But, alas, this is how it was ultimately done.

View attachment AsInstalledRakeEdgeDetail.pdf


Seems to me that the protection afforded by the standing seam concept has been eliminated at every rake. Also, as on the drip edge, there is no continuous (wind?) cleat installed.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

....wow...that ain't right

yea typically the eave detail is not used on a screw down ''corrugated'' type panel,but on a standing seam panel its the standard detail


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> ....wow...that ain't right


I presume you are referring to the AsInstalled drawing Tom.

What's your take on the other three methods? Are any or all acceptable in your book? 

How do _you_ treat the rake detail?


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> ....wow...that ain't right
> 
> yea typically the eave detail is not used on a screw down ''corrugated'' type panel,but on a standing seam panel its the standard detail


Yes, mine is 180 degree, mechanically crimped standing seam with "no exposed fasteners". I suppose the visible pop rivets they used to secure the ridge cap and skylight flashings are not "exposed fasteners". Say what?!? 

Are pop rivets even feasible to use up there?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

id say either method that leaves the pan intact and fold around and locks in to a trim is as good as it gets

the rivets are sometimes necessary on exposed trims but they are usually made from stainless steel,care needs to be taken tho,as the trims move Ive seen them actually cut right thru rivets and back out screws
That's why an annual inspection is a good idea

metal roof if done right can give many years of trouble free service,done wrong they can be ''impossible'' to fix


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> id say either method that leaves the pan intact and fold around and locks in to a trim is as good as it gets
> 
> the rivets are sometimes necessary on exposed trims but they are usually made from stainless steel,care needs to be taken tho,as the trims move Ive seen them actually cut right thru rivets and back out screws
> That's why an annual inspection is a good idea
> ...


The rivets are painted to match the roof, a nice touch I thought. I'm not sure, but I believe they are aluminum which, in itself, is problematic. If indeed aluminum and installed in the steel roof I suspect they will corrode away before they get a chance to be cut thru. 

What do you use in these instances?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

well there's whats called a ''stitch screw''basically a hex headed drill point sheet metal screw with a grommeted head


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> well there's whats called a ''stitch screw''basically a hex headed drill point sheet metal screw with a grommeted head


I found images online for the stitch screws. Looks like they would do a much better job even if somewhat more unsightly.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

I most often do the learned, As for the expected, I reverse the last hem, or cut it off to accept cleats every 8-10" up the rake. 

( As for cleat pecs? Man will allow 4' center with 24 ga. steel.) They have to be closer for the floating system your crew used. The cleats hold the panels above the roof creating an air-space between the panels and the underlay. 
When you walk on a roof installed like that, at 2' center for the cleats, it feels like you're walking on matresses. First time I ever stepped on one, I thought the deck had disintergrated!  Big dummy!:laughing:

BTW, my 'Metal Details' album will give some idea f how the skylights should have been done. That crew didn't have a clue. http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/photo_album_list.asp?u=30

Feel free to browse any of my albums at that link. I haven't been able to edit th albums there in 3 years. 

Because we have stormy weather here, I ALWAYS 'box-fold' the panel ends to form a permanent water proof barrier behind the z bar. Wind blows any water past those, and it runs over the ends of the panels, wanders down the underlay looking for ways to create mischief.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

mem said:


> The rivets are painted to match the roof, a nice touch I thought. I'm not sure, but I believe they are aluminum which, in itself, is problematic. If indeed aluminum and installed in the steel roof I suspect they will corrode away before they get a chance to be cut thru.
> 
> What do you use in these instances?


As the roofer would say..."Who cares???? It'll be out of warranty anyway and I'll have my money. I'll just go back, quote a price, and fix it and make more money."


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

We use thousands of rivets on our jobs. Yes they are an acceptable "exposed fastener". Only type we will ever use is 43 and 44 stainless with stainless mandrel. They have the highest shear strength and pull power. Aluminum rivets are extremely weak and too soft for roofing. SS rivets are more permanent than stitch screws and look much better. Your second .pdf is an eave detail, not a rake detail. Your first .pdf is along the same lines as we use for standing seam. (nice work on the cad btw, I'm jealous)

Unless specs and details were a part of your contract, you hired this contractor to put on a metal roof how he decides to put it on. You just have to wait and see if you have problems with it in the future and deal with it then. You hired him to install it his way, not ours. Unfortunately too many people think all metal roofs are the same and anyone can put them on. If this installer has a decent history, odds are you will be fine and you will get what you paid for. I have a feeling you wish you had taken this crash course prior to beginning the project though.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i don't know,you hire someone it should be done to ''industry standard''
which that gable detail is not,i'd make him fix it before i pay him


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> i don't know,you hire someone it should be done to ''industry standard''
> which that gable detail is not,i'd make him fix it before i pay him


We both know the majority of installers are clueless to industry standards. So they put it on how they see fit. Doesn't this, then, make that the "industry standard"?? :laughing: :laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i guess you got me there onb


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> I most often do the learned, As for the expected, I reverse the last hem, or cut it off to accept cleats every 8-10" up the rake.
> 
> ( As for cleat pecs? Man will allow 4' center with 24 ga. steel.) They have to be closer for the floating system your crew used. The cleats hold the panels above the roof creating an air-space between the panels and the underlay.
> When you walk on a roof installed like that, at 2' center for the cleats, it feels like you're walking on matresses. First time I ever stepped on one, I thought the deck had disintergrated!  Big dummy!:laughing:
> ...


Yes cleats up the rake would be far better than depending on the trim to hold it down. Nice!

Very perceptive tinner, the sliding part of the cleat is actually an eighth of an inch taller than the panel height. Although, I think that the slider would gouge into the underlayment and deck as they move with the panels, no? There is no sponginess when walked on, but that's probably due to the cleat spacing.

No box folds here, as you saw. But they did fill any voids around the z mould with their 'wonder caulk'. It's made by Titebond for metal roofs. Have you guys seen this stuff before? They swear by it.









Yep, it seems like these guys did a lot more work and used a lot more material than necessary on the skylights. Looks like it is designed to keep the water away from the curb instead of out of the curb. I'm not saying it's done right, but I think it should work as long as the wonder caulk holds up.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> As the roofer would say..."Who cares???? It'll be out of warranty anyway and I'll have my money. I'll just go back, quote a price, and fix it and make more money."


Well at least he is standing behind his work 100%. His warrantee on workmanship is the same as the manufacturer's warrantee on the material, and that's 50 years. Although my research indicates his company has been in business nearly twenty years, I'm more concerned with 'out of business' more so than 'out of warrantee'. Perhaps a bit of false confidence on my part but I guess only time will tell.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

At least that is a very good caulk they used. Caulk should never be used as the primary sealant all on it's own. Did I miss a pictures? I don't see how they flashed the skylights except for the small details you showed. Got pics of the finished rake and eave?


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> We use thousands of rivets on our jobs. Yes they are an acceptable "exposed fastener". Only type we will ever use is 43 and 44 stainless with stainless mandrel. They have the highest shear strength and pull power. Aluminum rivets are extremely weak and too soft for roofing. SS rivets are more permanent than stitch screws and look much better. Your second .pdf is an eave detail, not a rake detail. Your first .pdf is along the same lines as we use for standing seam. (nice work on the cad btw, I'm jealous)
> 
> Unless specs and details were a part of your contract, you hired this contractor to put on a metal roof how he decides to put it on. You just have to wait and see if you have problems with it in the future and deal with it then. You hired him to install it his way, not ours. Unfortunately too many people think all metal roofs are the same and anyone can put them on. If this installer has a decent history, odds are you will be fine and you will get what you paid for. I have a feeling you wish you had taken this crash course prior to beginning the project though.


No doubt stainless would be the best. If I had done it myself, I would probably have used SS for all the fasteners, it's just the way I am. It's what I used when I installed the fascia.

I suppose a detailed, book length contract would have been better for all. He did do it his way and he assures me that all things I am concerned with are how he puts down all his metal roofs, and he has "never had a problem". His references are all glowing and all his certificates seemed to be in order. I would like to think this roof will outlast me.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure what you mean about my second PDF being an eave detail. And thanks, I just love drawing on the computer. If you need anything done, let me know. It's the least I could do to return the favors.

I spent countless hours doing research on this project thru various means. Seriously, it took me nearly seven months to decide who to hire. And yes, I wish I knew then what I have learned thru this crash course, but it's tough task to ask a question you don't yet have.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> i don't know,you hire someone it should be done to ''industry standard''
> which that gable detail is not,i'd make him fix it before i pay him





OldNBroken said:


> We both know the majority of installers are clueless to industry standards. So they put it on how they see fit. Doesn't this, then, make that the "industry standard"?? :laughing: :laughing:





tomstruble said:


> i guess you got me there onb


You guys _ARE_ joking, right?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

mem said:


> You guys _ARE_ joking, right?


No, not really, there are a LOT more hacks in this field than competent installers. But it does sound like you have a very reliable contractor and the main thing we stress for ANY roof system is " It's only as good as the person installing it." 

We just pointed out some things that we have concerns with..screws, clips, clip spacing. As long as he is there to address any possible issues in the future you have no worries. 

Post some finish and detail pics if you feel like it. They are always good for future references on these forums.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> At least that is a very good caulk they used. Caulk should never be used as the primary sealant all on it's own. Did I miss a pictures? I don't see how they flashed the skylights except for the small details you showed. Got pics of the finished rake and eave?


They tell me when this caulk is cured, and then the metal pieces are pulled apart, the caulk will actually rip before it separates from the metal.

The skylights:

Head flashing is installed against the curb.








Z mould is installed in a bed of caulk a couple of inches from the curb and screwed down on the other three sides. There is no metal flashing against the curb here, only the Wintergard HT turned up under the skylight gasket.















The final pieces are L shaped with the lower leg folded under like a J to slide over the Z. The top leg of the L is then tucked up under the rubber gasket of the skylight.








A single pop rivet is located in each corner.








I'll have the finished rake and eave pics shortly.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> No, not really, there are a LOT more hacks in this field than competent installers. But it does sound like you have a very reliable contractor and the main thing we stress for ANY roof system is " It's only as good as the person installing it."
> 
> We just pointed out some things that we have concerns with..screws, clips, clip spacing. As long as he is there to address any possible issues in the future you have no worries.
> 
> Post some finish and detail pics if you feel like it. They are always good for future references on these forums.


No question about the hacks out there! I know it's not advisable to get too many estimates on a project, but I had to interview maybe 18 or 20 contractors just to get a few viable bids. I had to dismiss one after another before they were even out the door. Everything from obvious ignorance of the trade (even I knew more than some, if you can believe it), to used car salesman techniques.

Anyone for some humble pie? Seems I have made some mistakes earlier. I had my memory jogged and there were two kind of screws used up there. I found a few of the others laying about. They look like the real deal. And I'm not certain of the pop rivet material either. They are not magnetic so they could be stainless or aluminum, They are kinda shiny tho, I can't tell.









Maybe I'll sleep a little better tonite. And I will most certainly post more pics when I can. Gotta lose a little snow first.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

rivit look like ss,screws for the clip should
have a head like the drill point you showed earlier


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> rivit look like ss,screws for the clip should
> have a head like the drill point you showed earlier


How can you tell it's stainless? The sheen? I thought the drill point would evacuate too much wood and reduce the holding power.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

head not tip on the screw,rivet's just a guess but it looks like a typical ss metal roof trim type


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Looks like SS to me also. Aluminum will have either aluminum or steel mandrel and that mandrel is SS. Looks like you are fine there. As far as screws, it's all about pullout and shear strength. Regular deck and drywall screws have decent pullout but terrible shear strength. There are many options out there, only way to know is to test it yourself.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

As for your caulk question. I have little experience with it. Maye use 10-12 tubes a year, sometimes a bit more on counter-flashing. I form my own penetration panels to avoid using it. Where any over-lap, in shingle fashion, I put a bead or two under them to seperate them and short circuit any capilary action. Most any brand will work for that.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

For instance, scroll down to 'Steel Roof Pipe Collar', 5 photos. http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/photo_album_list.asp?u=30
We did stop using those collars. GC spec'd those when Oakey quit making the 'Lead-Head' collars.) The ABS are much easier to repair. 

In the pix, some caulk was used to seperate the panels. 

At my ridges, with boxed panels, no caulk is required, nor used. I use the SS rivets when I need to use rivets.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> head not tip on the screw,rivet's just a guess but it looks like a typical ss metal roof trim type


DUH! Someday I'll get the hang of this reading comprehension thing. That little funnel shape under the pancake head is a bit too large for the hole in the clip tho, and it keeps the screw from fully seating by about a 32nd. At least it's got a wood thread.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Looks like SS to me also. Aluminum will have either aluminum or steel mandrel and that mandrel is SS. Looks like you are fine there. As far as screws, it's all about pullout and shear strength. Regular deck and drywall screws have decent pullout but terrible shear strength. There are many options out there, only way to know is to test it yourself.


I'm pretty well certain that they're SS now too. Do you test for pull out as simply as screwing down the clip and then try to yank it out with a prybar? What about shear strength? Try to just break it off?


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> As for your caulk question. I have little experience with it. Maye use 10-12 tubes a year, sometimes a bit more on counter-flashing. I form my own penetration panels to avoid using it. Where any over-lap, in shingle fashion, I put a bead or two under them to seperate them and short circuit any capilary action. Most any brand will work for that.





tinner666 said:


> For instance, scroll down to 'Steel Roof Pipe Collar', 5 photos. http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/photo_album_list.asp?u=30
> We did stop using those collars. GC spec'd those when Oakey quit making the 'Lead-Head' collars.) The ABS are much easier to repair.
> 
> In the pix, some caulk was used to seperate the panels.
> ...


Tinner, I checked out your album and that looks like the perfect way to handle the vents. Do you just crimp the ribs of the shingle panel in with those of the adjacent panels? Does the extra thickness cause any difficulties? I'll get some pics of how it was handled on this roof later. They don't look right to me--probably laughable to you guys. No doubt they took the easy way.

What caulk do you prefer to use?


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

Just a quick shout to say thanks and I wish you all the best of Holidays and a prosperous New Year!

mem


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

mem said:


> Tinner, I checked out your album and that looks like the perfect way to handle the vents. Do you just crimp the ribs of the shingle panel in with those of the adjacent panels? Does the extra thickness cause any difficulties? I'll get some pics of how it was handled on this roof later. They don't look right to me--probably laughable to you guys. No doubt they took the easy way.
> 
> What caulk do you prefer to use?


I just hand form any panel I need. Look at my copper roof albums, or my website. I have no preference in caulk, except BlackJack Neoprene for EPDM, and counter-flashing, I also use GeoCel for others apps. 
I think I figured out what TItebond is. I do a lot of repairs on metal that some monster sticking caulk, usually white that i have to cut loose.

My philosophy is this. If the detail work is lacking, NO amount of caulk will last long term. If all the detail work is spot-on, Elmers will be fine.

Here's an underside view of my box-folded panels. 
The next pic is tin, but the panels were extended full lenght past the sky-light eliminating the corners No solder or caulk needed on my corners.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

24 ga, Steel Chimney panel. You can see how the field panels were cut on the right, then on the left is a filed formed side panel.

I have no understanding of cutting a field panel flush with a penetration. How can caulk perform like an uncut panel?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Now, before we locked that panel to the left side, we ran about 4 beads of caulk across the bottom. It's only purpose is to short-circuit capilary action. Sometimes, we just make skinny, or wider panels to go in front of apenetration, corner to corner, box fold them in place and completely eliminate the caulk issue entirely. Like this. A dab of gutter sealer was used in the fold just to keep any moisture from getting in and freezing, as unlikely as that sounds. About 1-1,000,000 chance.

And sometimes like this, and solder the very bottom, inside of corner.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

As you can see, there are many ways. Some are right, some are wrong. Some of my methods are still evolving.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

stay at it Frankie...your gettin it:thumbup:....:wink::laughing:


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

tomstruble said:


> stay at it Frankie...your gettin it:thumbup:....:wink::laughing:


I have to "Stay at it"... I don't have a clue about this stuff called 'roofing'.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

I haven't forgotten about you guys. We are in discussions with the contractor now and will let you know how it turns out. More pics, as promised, as available too.

And yeah, Frankie, you just might have a future in this business!:laughing:


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