# Repointing brick on front steps



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

This stoop is in bad shape. It's been in need of a major overhall for years but has been subjected to half assed repairs time and time again.
I'd have it redone with a bluestone cap stone to minimize the joints.
If you think you can improve it, go ahead.
Ron


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

As a mason, I've rebuilt a lot of projects like this. Unfortunately, in a freeze/thaw climate like yours, the details are extremely important in the installation of wet-set brick horizontally. Solid brick/pavers are very hard to lay always because there is no where for excess mortar to go but down the face of your work. I tried talking a very meticulus carpenter thru this process once, & he wasn't very happy with his result.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

*Bluestone capstone*

Thank you Ron. I appreciate the suggestion. I was digging away at it a few minutes ago and some part s were solid while other parts were totally sand. The bluestone you mentioned...would I need to have someone rebuild the entire porch first - demolish the brick and start over?


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks Jo, 
Some people recommend that to do a job like this you need to use a grinder to remove about an inch of the old mortar and then fill in with the new mortar. That seems like a heck of a lot of man-hours of work.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Quikrete has a how to on this.
Oh and DIY.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> Thank you Ron. I appreciate the suggestion. I was digging away at it a few minutes ago and some part s were solid while other parts were totally sand. The bluestone you mentioned...would I need to have someone rebuild the entire porch first - demolish the brick and start over?


 You need a solid base to lay the stones on. Look around the neighborhood. I'm sure you will see this construction on the updated staircases.
If you start pulling this thing apart, more then likely you will find that the base in some areas is also mush.
Ron


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## NJ Brickie (Mar 4, 2009)

Brick steps are usually not a good idea. They are usually not built correctly in the first place and they are hard to maintain especially in cold climates. I have repaired many brick steps and I never give any type of warranty. Each set of steps are different and you can not tell what is wrong with them until you open them up. Just by the pictures it looks like you have a good amount of water getting into the steps and I would not be surprised if you need a total rebuild. I would consider going with concrete steps.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

I looked at a couple of stoops in my neighborhood. Some have a big slab on top (Im assuming in bluestone) and brick underneath. In some cases it looks like their bricks are in as bad shape as mine. As you can see, it not all brick - does the bluestone meet up with the concrete on top? and will I have the same problem I had with the bricks?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Check out this picture.
www.bongiornos.net/masonry-3.htm
Ron


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

ronnie, nice job ! ! !

restorative work & repointing's our work,,, we'd suggest replacing the steps,,, whatever masonary products you eventually select, a coat of silicone siloxane 6mos after building would be good protection.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

If I give this a shot myself (nothing to lose) how can I clean the old mortar off the brick?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

gruntman said:


> If I give this a shot myself (nothing to lose) how can I clean the old mortar off the brick?


 - A 4" grinder with cheap diamond blade
- A chisel for the corners the grinder won't fit.
- Alot of patience & perserverance!


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks - I'll try it this weekend (I have a Mason on standby in case this goes south) . Here are 3 more questions:

1). How much of a window of good weather do I need before I start putting in mortar?
2). In places where the space is very narrow between the cement pad and the brick would you grind out anything to make space or just do your best to put some mortar in there. 
3). I read alot about the best type of mortar to use on this kind of job. The house is 50 years old. Can I just purchase a mortar mix from HD or Lowes? There is a store near me (National Lumber) that builders more frequently visit. Im not sure I trust the people at HD to steer me right.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

gruntman said:


> Thanks - I'll try it this weekend (I have a Mason on standby in case this goes south) . Here are 3 more questions:
> 
> 1). How much of a window of good weather do I need before I start putting in mortar?
> 2). In places where the space is very narrow between the cement pad and the brick would you grind out anything to make space or just do your best to put some mortar in there.
> 3). I read alot about the best type of mortar to use on this kind of job. The house is 50 years old. Can I just purchase a mortar mix from HD or Lowes? There is a store near me (National Lumber) that builders more frequently visit. Im not sure I trust the people at HD to steer me right.


1) The brick should be at least 40 degrees when tuckpointing. Use hot water to aid in the mortar set. Mort shouldn't be allowed to freeze for a doy or 2. It should be small enough to cover with an old blanket or the like.
2) Definately grind 3/8" to 1/2" wide minimum if you don't want to patch every year.
3) I personally mix my mort for a project like this from scratch, but I have a shop full of different types. I also ude as much Portland cement as possible, minimum of lime for workability & to control water bleed-out. In your case, for a small amount of mortar needed, I would try this:
1 - 80 bag of Quikrete Type S Mason Mix. (green, yellow, white bag)
1 - 80 bag of mason sand. (not silica)
20-30 pounds of Portland Cement.
6 ounces Bonding Agent (make sure it says Admixture)
You should be able to get all this at a big box store.


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## John C (Mar 30, 2009)

We bought our mid-Hudson Valley Cape in fall and today discovered the prior owner's poor repair job failed. Cleared out the crumbs and shored up using a paver I found behind shed (coincidence it fit?), and have covered it all with a Hefty bag to keep out elements temporarily. Front door is only used by the rare door-to-door type, but I'm concerned those three bricks could cave before we repair properly. Similar problem looks evident on other side of steps, too, and I think more's crumbling inside.
1) Gruntman - how did your repair project go?
2) Ron and others - does it look like we should demolish and start from scratch so we know what we have vs. wondering when it will break down again? I have no experience with this, but my father was a general contractor... dare we try it ourselves?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

From the pictures, it doesn't look too bad. The issue is the same as the original poster. The mortar joints on the top of the stoop are allowing water to get into the bowels of the structure. That's why you don't see this construction anymore.
You can repoint the areas that need it and fill in the the area on the side. Remove as much of the deteriorated cinder block as is feasible before you fill in the area. 
Ron


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Update: The weather got warmer so I decided to begin this project. I have been grinding all day. Which by the way is the coolest part of this job.

I just looked at the work I did yesterday and its crumbling apart. Any thought s abouit what I might have done wrong?


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Any suggestions? I used Quickrete on the mortaring job and it looks like it just dried out and its not hardening.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

gruntman said:


> Hi Ron,
> Do you have any suggestions? I used Quickrete on the mortaring job and it looks like it just dried out and its not hardening.


How did you apply the mortar? Can you take a picture? Maybe your joints are still too thin, or your brick are "suckers".


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Whats a sucker? I made some mortar just to get an idea of what it would be like to to the job and did a few of the steps. I found some Quickrete mortar in my garage from the previous owner and thought I'd give it a try because it was free. The gaps are wide enough to get one of those tuckpointing tools in the cracks. The are about a half inch deep - as far as that cutting blade would let me go. After a day I could break it apart with my car key. I just washed it out with a garden hose.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

gruntman said:


> Whats a sucker? I made some mortar just to get an idea of what it would be like to to the job and did a few of the steps. I found some Quickrete mortar in my garage from the previous owner and thought I'd give it a try because it was free. The gaps are wide enough to get one of those tuckpointing tools in the cracks. The are about a half inch deep - as far as that cutting blade would let me go. After a day I could break it apart with my car key. I just washed it out with a garden hose.


A sucker is a very dry, porous brick. The Quikcrete was probably bad from sitting in a moist area too long. Tuckers/fillers are made in all kinds of sizes from 3/16" to 1 1/2", at least that I've seen. Go back & re-read what I recommended for mortar on the last page & try that.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> Whats a sucker? I made some mortar just to get an idea of what it would be like to to the job and did a few of the steps. I found some Quickrete mortar in my garage from the previous owner and thought I'd give it a try because it was free. The gaps are wide enough to get one of those tuckpointing tools in the cracks. The are about a half inch deep - as far as that cutting blade would let me go. After a day I could break it apart with my car key. I just washed it out with a garden hose.


 To do all that labor to clean out the mortar joints and then use a bag of mix thats been sitting in the garage for who knows how long is idiotic.
Ron


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

You just switch to decaf Ron? Thanks Jo, didnt realize mortar had a shelf life.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> You just switch to decaf Ron? Thanks Jo, didnt realize mortar had a shelf life.


Gruntman, everything has a shelf life, especially items that are moisture sensitive. It just makes no sense using old material that cost $12.00 to replace on a job like this.
Next time I would research the entire project before starting it, to avoid similiar mistakes.
This is a typical homeowner characteristic, to take the DIY money saving endeavor and contaminating the end result due to cheaping out. Sometimes out of lack of knowledge and sometimes due to extreme penny pinching.
I really don't like decaf.
Ron


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Im almost finished with this job. What is the best way to remove some of the mortar residue from brick?


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## RemodelMan (Oct 7, 2007)

*Removing Mortar from Brick*

Let the mortar cure for at least 4 weeks. Then try a solution of 50% water with Muriatic acid. Put on a pair of goggles and rubber gloves before you open the muriatic acid. Be sure not to breathe in the fumes either. first pour water into a 5 gallon bucket, then add the muriatic acid. Use a stainless steel brush, avoid the mortar joints. Rinse with a hose. Repeat if necessary.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My MIL's steps are in rough shape too
I'm going to have to patch them until she can have/decide on new steps
Plus install a new side door to the garage
Paint the trim on the garage
Weed the gardens again - bittersweet vines & other junk
Looks like a weekend down there


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is what it looks like so far. Thanks for the tips for cleaning the brick. 

Another problem I have encountered is that some of the joints are very tight. I cant get mortar in there with out it looking like a mess. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## RemodelMan (Oct 7, 2007)

*Tight fits and meeting other materials*

I use a caulking product called "Vulkem"(Home D carries it), between incompatible materials ie wood/thresholds that butts up to concrete or metal to wood or even between stucco and cement. This is because they contract and expand at different ratios or the cement slabs will drift away from foundations. You can apply masking tape along the left and right sides of the joints to prevent smearing Vulkem on the finished surface. 

Otherwise, the tight fit between brick and what appears to be colored cement could be remedied by using a cutting wheel in your grinder and shaving off the end of the brick wide enough to accept mortar.


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

.110 diamond blade & small grinder,,, create a joint to match existing jnts.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks - that worked. If I use the Muratic acid and brush will it scratch up the brick? If that is the idea do I need to seal it with something afterwards?


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

the acid wash's to get rid of the lime stains,,, & if you can scratch your brick w/a brush, somebody sold you the wrong bricks, bud :laughing: wait for your work to age 6mos then pressure wash it w/algaecide/mildewcide & give it a coat of silicone siloxane - a penetrating waterproofing solution,,, you'll find directions on the label.

i do my brickwork every 2yrs,,, hope it turn'd out well,,, :thumbup: so post some pictures ! ! ! ! ! !


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

This is how it turned out. Not perfect but it should last me a few seasons and I learned something from doing it.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

The winter has just started and I already see a crack in my work. The crack is in the new mortar joints on top of the porch right where the brick meets the concrete slab on top. Is there any way to fix it? I never placed a sealant on the porch - was that where I went wrong?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> The winter has just started and I already see a crack in my work. The crack is in the new mortar joints on top of the porch right where the brick meets the concrete slab on top. Is there any way to fix it? I never placed a sealant on the porch - was that where I went wrong?


My guess would be water got into the joint and froze. Bonding the new mortar to the in place brick probably did not take place. It was mearly pressing against the brick. Water doesn't need too much room to find it's way below the surface. 
I doubt sealing the surface would have saved you from the crack.
Ron


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Can this be repaired in the winter? Im afraid if I do not do something the crack will get bigger after the next snowstorm and the front bricks are going to fall apart.


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Is there anything I can use to seal these cracks so that the snow and ice dont force my steps apart even more this winter? Its below freezing here now - can you repoint in this kind of weather?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Short of covering it for the winter, no.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> Is there anything I can use to seal these cracks so that the snow and ice dont force my steps apart even more this winter? Its below freezing here now - can you repoint in this kind of weather?


This structure is finished. Plan on replacing it in the Spring. Spending time repairing it is a lost cause.
Ron


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Im OK with that, but is there anything I can use now to seal those cracks so the step doesnt fall off.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

I would call MASONRY/CONCRETE supply company not a contractor and ask what products if any they might recommend for a temp fix. Some sealants can be used at pretty low temps these days, you may need heated blankets for over nite. That joint at the brick/slab looks to me like an expansion problem not a freeze thaw issue. I would recommend cutting the mortar back and using a colored sealant which the concrete company may match


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gruntman said:


> Im OK with that, but is there anything I can use now to seal those cracks so the step doesnt fall off.


There's a product you use to seal expansion joints in concrete once the asphalt material deteriorates. Home Depot sells it in the concrete aisle. It comes in 2 tube sizes. The standard caulking gun size and the large gun size. It comes in gray and tan.
Sika is the manufacturer.
Ron


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*this wouldn't be the 1st time i missed something but where's the asphalt on these brick steps & landing ? realize brickies like to use mortar on brickwork & that's fine by me - i would, too,,, however, i wouldn't bother sealing the crk for now,,, if you want, just smear some silicone sealant over it & that'll get you thru to spring when its time to replace all the failed work.

sika products are excellent however, for them to work properly, they, like any other spec'd sealant, must be installed in the proper size reservoir OVER closed cell backer rod & tooled to promote adhesion,,, proper backer rod is NOT avail from your local apron store :no: matter of fact, not much is of any decent quality.
*


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## RemodelMan (Oct 7, 2007)

*Concrete Crack filler*

The product that would best suit this situation is a highly flexible and extremely durable product that comes in a 10oz caulk tube, available at Home Depot, in an assortment of colors. 
"Vulkem".

Another comparable brand is called "Quad", in 10oz and larger tubes.
Sold in assortment of colors too, but usually available at contractor supply or commercial distribution centers.

Either of these products are ideal for a temporary fix, for up to a few years if applied properly in warm and dry conditions. They can also be used to seal around doors, windows and siding etc in vertical applications too.

Lastly, you might want to try a self leveling concrete filler. The catch is, the self leveling only works on horizontal applications and may need to be reapplied several times to fill voids...."Quickrete", sells it in 10oz tubes.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

itsreallyconc said:


> *this wouldn't be the 1st time i missed something but where's the asphalt on these brick steps & landing ? realize brickies like to use mortar on brickwork & that's fine by me - i would, too,,, however, i wouldn't bother sealing the crk for now,,, if you want, just smear some silicone sealant over it & that'll get you thru to spring when its time to replace all the failed work.*
> 
> *sika products are excellent however, for them to work properly, they, like any other spec'd sealant, must be installed in the proper size reservoir OVER closed cell backer rod & tooled to promote adhesion,,, proper backer rod is NOT avail from your local apron store :no: matter of fact, not much is of any decent quality.*


I didn't understand the asphalt reference.
Poster just want to get through the Winter without the bricks busting out more and creating a hazard. You don't think putting this product in a clean dry crack will achieve this goal?
Home Depot carries Sika backer rod. What's wrong with that?
Ron


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*to the best of my knowledge, our apron stores only sell polyurethane sealants,,, while they're good, ANY sealant must be installed in a properly constructed sealant reservoir,,, they do NOT sell the proper size backer rod to fit the desired width which is the ENTIRE mortar joint as only 1/4" rod's available in the stores i've seen locally - guessing that joint in your step's wider than 1/4",,, to create the proper reservoir, you'll need a 4" grinder & either .110" OR .250" tuckpoint diamond blade,,, safety glasses, dust mask, yada, yada, yada,,, read sealant specs on the W/SITE for necessary depth"width sealant ratio.

' once the asphalt material deteriorates ' that's where i read it, ron,,, i'd consider 'tracking' of asphalt into the home or on the walkway via foot traffic.

wasn't aware vulkem was being sold - its good, too,,, either brand is good for a permanent repair if done properly bearing in mind ' permanent ' may be defined as 7yrs - same as silicone,,, we wouldn't pick self-leveling mtls even at OUR home :no:*


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

itsreallyconc said:


> *to the best of my knowledge, our apron stores only sell polyurethane sealants,,, while they're good, ANY sealant must be installed in a properly constructed sealant reservoir,,, they do NOT sell the proper size backer rod to fit the desired width which is the ENTIRE mortar joint as only 1/4" rod's available in the stores i've seen locally - guessing that joint in your step's wider than 1/4",,, to create the proper reservoir, you'll need a 4" grinder & either .110" OR .250" tuckpoint diamond blade,,, safety glasses, dust mask, yada, yada, yada,,, read sealant specs on the W/SITE for necessary depth"width sealant ratio.*
> 
> *' once the asphalt material deteriorates ' that's where i read it, ron,,, i'd consider 'tracking' of asphalt into the home or on the walkway via foot traffic.*
> 
> *wasn't aware vulkem was being sold - its good, too,,, either brand is good for a permanent repair if done properly bearing in mind ' permanent ' may be defined as 7yrs - same as silicone,,, we wouldn't pick self-leveling mtls even at OUR home :no:*


The asphalt material I was referring to was the expansion joints in concrete as I had replaced those with the 3/4" sika backer rod and the filler. 
Home Depot sells backer rod from 3/8" up to 3/4".
Ron


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*maybe up on lon gisland but not down he-ah :no:*


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

I cant seem to get a dry day up here with all the snow storms and melting snow. Is there a product I can use for a temp fix that doesnt require dry conditions? At this point I could actually lift them out by hand.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

You could tent the area in with plastic & a small electric heater if you really want to try to save whats left. Is it a safety issue now? Can you just pull them out for now and make it safer?


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## gruntman (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, its a safetly issue now. It was stable before - I messed up - thought it would last until the spring - but the recent NE snow storms have trashed it. I might have to do that.


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## paulie1 (Jul 7, 2012)

*mortar mixture*

What is the mixture ratio?


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