# Car runs violently >3200 RPM



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Two possibilities right off the top.

Restricted air flow, ( sticky automatic choke, dirty air filter, something else.)

Or sticky timing advance mechanism in the distributor. 

Is the vacuum advance hose properly attached, no torn rubber?

And the FUN continues.:vs_OMG:

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> Two possibilities right off the top.
> 
> Restricted air flow, ( sticky automatic choke, dirty air filter, something else.)
> I will double check the air filter. Just shook it out recently.
> ...


LOL! How did you know this was fun, Ed?? 

There is no vac hose. Regarding the timing advance mechanism, know what it looks like in the dist cap? And in your opinion, as te car warms up, it gets better/behaves? Remember- when car gets hot, trouble stops.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

What do you have? A PFI or TBI system? Almost sounds like coolant temp sensor is off telling the ECM the wrong engine temp. Throw a scanner on it and compare the coolant and air temp sensors with a cold engine. Should be within 5 degrees of each other. What is fuel pressure when it screws up?:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> What do you have? A PFI or TBI system? Almost sounds like coolant temp sensor is off telling the ECM the wrong engine temp. Throw a scanner on it and compare the coolant and air temp sensors with a cold engine. Should be within 5 degrees of each other. What is fuel pressure when it screws up?:vs_cool:


TBI. Only scanner I know of is using a paper clip, ground the diagnostic terminal under dash, and read engine codes with the flashing "check engine" light. It is OBD 1, Im sure you are aware. But yes, I can check the temp sensor, I have done it in the past, remove it, place in water over stove top, with reliable thermometer, and watch the ohms readings as temp changes. Sounds like a good approach, Brain?

Also, where is my air temp sensor? Didnt know I had one. 

Didnt do fuel pressure test yet, I do have a guage but it is messy.

Also, wouldnt a bad temp sensor have triggered an engine code?


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## Rough Rooster (Feb 7, 2015)

Another possibility is valve train problem such as a weak spring, or worn cam lobe.

RR :smile::smile:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Rough Rooster said:


> Another possibility is valve train problem such as a weak spring, or worn cam lobe.
> 
> RR :smile::smile:


Meaning that when engine warms, the supposed worn cam lobe "behaves" better? 

Entire head was machined before placing it back onto block. But I use same cam........


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Sounds like you need to do a compression check all cylinders.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

papereater said:


> TBI. Only scanner I know of is using a paper clip, ground the diagnostic terminal under dash, and read engine codes with the flashing "check engine" light. It is OBD 1, Im sure you are aware. But yes, I can check the temp sensor, I have done it in the past, remove it, place in water over stove top, with reliable thermometer, and watch the ohms readings as temp changes. Sounds like a good approach, Brain?
> 
> Also, where is my air temp sensor? Didnt know I had one.
> 
> ...


If it's bad but still sending temp readings, it won't set a code. CCC (Computer Command Control) system is not as fast as todays PCMs. OBD1 is 1995 only. OBD2 is from 1996 to now. Before 1995, it was CCC, EEC, SEMC and so on. You can take ohm readings with the sensor still in the engine. Cold at first to see the base line. Should be around outside air temp. This is the sensor to the ECM. Should have yellow and black wires going to it. I looked and you have an air temp sensor. Check the intake runners for it or around throttle body. Tan and black wires going to it. At 210 degrees, 185 ohms
160 degrees 450 ohms
100 degrees 1800 ohms
70 degrees 3400 ohms
40 degrees 7500 ohms
20 degrees 13500 ohms
0 degrees 25000 ohms
-40 degrees 100,700 ohms


The same with the air temp:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks, people. Now I have some homework to do.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> If it's bad but still sending temp readings, it won't set a code. CCC (Computer Command Control) system is not as fast as todays PCMs. OBD1 is 1995 only. OBD2 is from 1996 to now. Before 1995, it was CCC, EEC, SEMC and so on. You can take ohm readings with the sensor still in the engine. Cold at first to see the base line. Should be around outside air temp. This is the sensor to the ECM. Should have yellow and black wires going to it. I looked and you have an air temp sensor. Check the intake runners for it or around throttle body. Tan and black wires going to it. At 210 degrees, 185 ohms
> 160 degrees 450 ohms
> 100 degrees 1800 ohms
> 70 degrees 3400 ohms
> ...


85 F outside, cold, got about 2200 Ohms. warmed it up in hot water to 175F and got 250 ohms. Shop manual (should agree with you) says >500 ohms difference and sensor is good. Poped it back on. Air temp sensor about same cold, warmed it up with hair drier (no way to take temp if in hot air, I guess) and got same difference. Shop manual says same thing about that too- >500 ohms sensor good.

Did compression test. Wow- all cylinders showed 175-180 psi. I didnt expect that! Is it likely that my rings are still ok? Shoudnt bad rings produce blue smoke AND low compression? Maybe something else is causing the burning of oil?

I should mention that when I put the gaskets all back and completed the job the anaerobic sealant from Felpro did not seal 100% between the camshaft carrier and cyl head. I was soooo mad. Probably my fault-meaning, I have to do the job all over again. I figured the little seepage coming from bottom of camshaft carrier would be just a nuisance.If I am not burning oil from bad rings, could it be coming from the head gasket even? I heard head gaskets can NOT leak oil from many people. 

Started up car, let it idle for 10 min. Got to running temp. Initially, no blue smoke in tail pipe. Then, when warmer, blue smoke at tail pipe continuously. 
Also, tons of blue oil burnt smoke from exhaust manifold, but not clear where its coming from. 

Comments appreciated.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Lets see if I can remember all the questions from today to finish this in one visit. 

Compression rings are good, but the oil rings might still be insufficient, they are there to oil the cylinders, and to clean them , so oil is not burnt. 

If oil is getting by the compression rings, it will shorten their life drastically, did you do the dry as well as wet test on the compression, that tells more about rings condition.

Yes head gaskets might leak oil, but rare to see. 

Fixing the cam carrier oil leak is a priority, it might be allowing oil into the combustion somehow, not sure about this specific engine , your manual should show how it is connected. or not. 


Yep it happened, I have to add another point.

The oil burning starts after warm-up, indicating that something expands when warmed, allowing the oil to get sucked into the combustion chamber. 

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

So, if you had to do nthis head gasket all over again, would you trustv this watery anaerobic sealant from Felpro, or use a good grey rtv sealant on that surface (camshaft carrier mating on top of head)? I hate to use that failed watery stuff again that came with the set.......


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Did a wet test on compression, and psi went up to 195 (from 175 dry). Does that mean rings should still be OK?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

First question, no I would not trust a watery sealant, I probably would not have used it the first time, but it is there now. 

Second question, the change in compression test, is more than likely because, your engine is on it's last few miles, before it burns oil so bad that the EPA, has you banned as a skeeter fogger. :vs_OMG:

It is still good for now, but soon it will be bad enough that another rebuild is needed. 

What I would do, is to get another used vehicle and start using that one, as my driver, while completely restoring the old Sunbird. 

But I ain't you, so I won't tell you to do that.


ED


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Like Ed said, it's hard to understand the full circumstances. Is $ an issue? Does the car have sentimental value? Or are you in it just for the challenge? Otherwise at some point is just ain't worth it, man. It were me i'd have already been there.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

He has owned this 87 since it was new, put the first 100 miles on it, made the first dent, possibly met the Mrs. in it, It is as much a part of him as his left foot, and parting with a left foot is the hardest thing that I ever had to do, but I took it in "stride". 

Sentimental attachment is a phenomena that most of us gets at least once for a car. 

Or a woman or 3. 


ED


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

LOL... yes indeed. I am going through this now wanting to sell my trusty Tacoma and move up to something newer and more capable like an F150. But I just can't let it go... but then it is mechanically perfect. I get sentimental about all my vehicles but once I do make the decision I get over it pretty quickly. As for the women? They will make you pay dearly for feeling that way!



de-nagorg said:


> Sentimental attachment is a phenomena that most of us gets at least once for a car.
> 
> Or a woman or 3.
> 
> ...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> He has owned this 87 since it was new, put the first 100 miles on it, made the first dent, possibly met the Mrs. in it, It is as much a part of him as his left foot, and parting with a left foot is the hardest thing that I ever had to do, but I took it in "stride".
> 
> Sentimental attachment is a phenomena that most of us gets at least once for a car.
> 
> ...


Cars are cheaper and don't talk back.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

There comes a time in the life cycle of a car when you shake your head, and issue a "do not resuscitate" note in its chart.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks, people. I need that. Im not done with it yet. Got to work OK. Warmed it up for 5-10 min before taking off. Smoked like heck, but burned off exhaust manifold after 5 miles. Drove bueautifully!! Accelerated like heck for a sunbird. Once hot. Testing it around noon , driving it cold on my dead end road. Will report back to official headquarters promptly with results of analysis.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

If the oil rings are bad, it would smoke all the time. When you did the head, did you do valve guides? Did they do a valve job? Did you install the valve seals? Or did they just refinish the surface. On start up, the oil that seeps past the valve seals will smoke. On acceleration, the vacuum cause by the cylinder wanting more air/fuel will pull oil past the valve seals/ worn valve guides causing smoke. Your compression is fine. But if they rebuilt your head, then the new (Higher) compression is causing the blow by. Check the pcv system to make sure it's working properly. I would say worn valve guides and seals. Anaerobic sealant from Felpro is what you have to use. That engine is designed for it. It's liquid until it hits air, then it starts to set up. It gets hard and seals the nicks and scratches. If you use silicone, it will fail real quick and oil leaks will come. Been there, done that. :vs_cool:


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing but I thought he had a full valve job done whilst the head was off. But I am not sure he did now. And even if he didn't have the valve job was it not smoking on startup before all this work?



Brainbucket said:


> I would say worn valve guides and seals. :


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

At the risk of being a teensy bit off topic... but as the lawyers say, someone opened the door to this testimony in earlier posts... Ed!


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAB6BAgHEAU&usg=AOvVaw2mDhiMPzAtvsJ8PvzXj2BM


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Or when the cost to refill the gas tank is worth more than the car so it essentially totaled.



Bigplanz said:


> There comes a time in the life cycle of a car when you shake your head, and issue a "do not resuscitate" note in its chart.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> If the oil rings are bad, it would smoke all the time. When you did the head, did you do valve guides? Did they do a valve job? Did you install the valve seals? Or did they just refinish the surface. On start up, the oil that seeps past the valve seals will smoke. On acceleration, the vacuum cause by the cylinder wanting more air/fuel will pull oil past the valve seals/ worn valve guides causing smoke. Your compression is fine. But if they rebuilt your head, then the new (Higher) compression is causing the blow by. Check the pcv system to make sure it's working properly. I would say worn valve guides and seals. Anaerobic sealant from Felpro is what you have to use. That engine is designed for it. It's liquid until it hits air, then it starts to set up. It gets hard and seals the nicks and scratches. If you use silicone, it will fail real quick and oil leaks will come. Been there, done that. :vs_cool:


OK, 2 things- first, reply: The shop did a complete service, and i supplied the valve guides that came with the kit. Im assuming they did install them. Worst blue smoke comes from takeoff after dead stop. But even if they didnt install the new ones and old ones were left, car never smoked that way. So wouldnt that eliminate suspicion of the guides?

I cleaned out the PCV system pretty well. Brain, what is blow by? Yes, I read more about anaerobic, and thats what I will use next time, maybe not felpro, not sure, It leaked at one spot, so Im scared of using felpro anaerobic. I thought I cleaned all surfaces soooo well. I think my mistake was to level out a bit with finger that bead of sealant. Maybe shouyld have dropped the camshaft carrier right on the bead instead of leveling it out.

But, UPDATE: drove car home at cold startup, and the engine jerking/violence has disappeared!! I thought back to when I instaled the new ignition module 2 weeks ago. A 3 terminal connector that was encapsulated in a plastic insulator , and that plastic disintegrated. I silmply pushed in those 3 tiny terminal connectors. Well, thats when the bucking/kicking/jerking started!! 

So last night I removed distributor and carefully wrapped elec tape around each terminal connector, and snapped them back. I figured maybe somethings going on between the 3 connectors that were just 2-3 mm apart. Maybe magnetic field interference? Maybe jumping/arcing? The elect tape fixed the problem!! Yipee!!!

Now, have motor oil problem. maybe start a new thread. Anyone ever use motor oil stop leak at least for the oozing out of the camshaft carrier? Otherwise, Im not scared to redo the entire head gasket and retorque, and use a bead of anaerobic sealant, like Brain said. This time, I wont level it down.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Check the egr valve. I'll bet it's stuck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Did you get new valve seals, are they all there, are they the right size. 

You can have weak oil rings with out loosing compression, but you would not expect that after the work you did.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Clutchcargo said:


> Check the egr valve. I'll bet it's stuck.


EGR has little to do with oil leak, right? besides, has been disconnected for many years......car ran rough with it on. Dont understand it, but it does. Ran well disconnected before head gasket blew.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

PCV makes sense, but I have never seen one that was integral with the valve cover like in the video. Very strange.

I like that Wifi scope. I have a 6 year old cheap Chinese scope that works but this looks better. I need to find one of those.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Neal, yes, new valve guides. Shop should have put them in. I gave them to the shop people. Thaks for the video- guess I got nothing to lose to check the pcv again- already cleaned it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

papereater said:


> Neal, yes, new valve guides. Shop should have put them in. I gave them to the shop people. Thaks for the video- guess I got nothing to lose to check the pcv again- already cleaned it.


 Valve guides and valve seals are not the same thing. 

https://www.hthoward.co.uk/engine-m...ur-cylinder-head/bronze-valve-guide-sleeving/


https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/valve-stem-seals-6869573188.html


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Does the PCV rattle if you shake it? It should else it is stuck.

Also, you may want to consider the comment above about the stuck EGR. I have seen that before and it makes the engine run extremely rough ragged and backfire at idle and lower throttle/revs. I had a Chevy S10 4.3L V6 whose EGR would stick intermittently, one day run fine then next like it was about to fall apart. New EGR fixed it right up. I don't think that would cause the blue smoke, however.



Nealtw said:


> Valve guides and valve seals are not the same thing.
> 
> https://www.hthoward.co.uk/engine-m...ur-cylinder-head/bronze-valve-guide-sleeving/
> 
> ...


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

If car ran rough with the EGR connected that means it was stuck open. It should be closed at idle and if it doesn't it will run like it's falling apart. But that wouldn't create oil smoke.



papereater said:


> EGR has little to do with oil leak, right? besides, has been disconnected for many years......car ran rough with it on. Dont understand it, but it does. Ran well disconnected before head gasket blew.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

You can find new wiring connectors at specialty dealers. On line. 

I recommend that you get one for this Sunbird, and replace the tape.

Tape will come off too soon, and then you have the problem again, and be broke down in the "BAD" part of town, after dark. 

Oh the horror. :devil3:

Besides it's worth a few more $ to keep it correct.

EDIT: Blow-by, is when on the compression stroke of the pistons, the compression pressure " Blows by" the compression rings, down into the crank case. 

And out through the oil fill tube, or the PVC valve, or both. 
ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Good to know about the connectors. Yes, tape doesnt hold up to that intense engine heat. 

Gonna look into doing a leak down test, buy a kit- less than $50.00 . More diagnostics needed to form a reliable conclusion, right? That could confirm if bad valve stems, bad rings (or oil rings), leak in either intake, or exhaust, etc. Would you do this, people? 
Remember- car consumed 1.5 qts oil in just 250 miles. Doubt that was just from initial startup through bad valve stems. maybe Im not seeing the big blue oil burn plume as I drive, in rear view mirror, but maybe burning just below the human vision capacity of the eye.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

That much oil consumption in that few miles, you should see a cloud, similar to the " skeeter fogger", that I referred to earlier.

Have you looked for a major puddle on the driveway. 

I would suspect a leak in a sealing material, myself. 
You might be chasing a "ghost", that don't exist. 

As for the wiring connector, you might find one at a wrecking yard, for a $, but who knows what condition it would be in, it might be as aged as the original, and weathered. 


ED 

And valve stems, valve guides, valve seals, are 3 different things, all working together, to allow the engine to breathe.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

More good feedback. Thanks Ed. Ok, I do NOT have a big blue Chernobyl nuclear plume of smoke following me. Could be that stupid leak from my misuse of what Brain advised as the right sealant- anaerobic- between camshaft carrier and head. No puddles. I admit this is a mystery at this point.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I am not familiar with that arrangement. Usually on OHV V8s I work on the valley cover gets RTV silicone. But hard to believe any sealant would fail that badly and that quickly.

This is crazy. The oil has to be going somewhere. Hard to imagine you don't have that mosquito fogger thing with that level of consumption if it were burning. Did you look for oil in the coolant? Leave no stone unturned.




papereater said:


> More good feedback. Thanks Ed. Ok, I do NOT have a big blue Chernobyl nuclear plume of smoke following me. Could be that stupid leak from my misuse of what Brain advised as the right sealant- anaerobic- between camshaft carrier and head. No puddles. I admit this is a mystery at this point.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks for the perspective, Ray. Believe me, I have been dedicated to this- this past weekend, I drained my oil looking for any trace of coolant/foreign stuff. It was 100% clear! Poured it back slooooowly into the engine, looking for watery/greenish fluid which would settle at bottom, but no such contamination. Overflow coolant reservoir has no oil. I also drained radiator at times, when I was chasing the temp sensor diagnosis, which tested fine.

Drained about a quart of coolant. Clean. But I understand oil floats, so wouldnt that show up in the reservoir? OR in the rad housing, where the thermostat is, and where one adds fluid? Would have showed up there, right?


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Oil is probably being used on acceleration and lite throttle. Have someone drive your car and you follow it. You will see the smoke. Just note at what car is doing when it smokes. Taking off, cruising, slowing down, full throttle, engine under load.:vs_cool:


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

If you can't be the follower, get a GO-PRO, or similar, attach it to your car near the exhaust pipe, and drive it for a few minutes, as normal as you always do. 

Then view the recorded video, and observe where the " genie", is getting out of the pipe. 

Sometimes we have no one else that we trust to drive our prize.:devil3:


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Good deal, people. Man, when will this be over!! LOL. Im not 100% ready to spend $$ on a leak down kit, unless AZ rents them for free.But wouldnt a leak down test result be an interesting observation on this??! What the heck- we went this far! 

Drove car back'forth to work again today. Drove great. Gonna get those plastic connectors for the 3 tiny terminals that Ed suggested before the elec tape melts away. 

Anyway, will monitor this daily. Have a good night, Ed, Brain, Neil, Ray, and others.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> Oil is probably being used on acceleration and lite throttle. Have someone drive your car and you follow it. You will see the smoke. Just note at what car is doing when it smokes. Taking off, cruising, slowing down, full throttle, engine under load.:vs_cool:


OK, maybe wife would be good for that. (And something else....LOL)


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Leak down test is for rings, not oil rings. This test is not needed as you have good compression.:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> Leak down test is for rings, not oil rings. This test is not needed as you have good compression.:vs_cool:


Wow, so good to know, Brain. Thanks. Now, it wont be useful for checking leaky/worn valve seals (guides) either? Or a bad intake gasket?

Driving fine, watching oil consumption, and will retest in a few weeks or so. For now, all is good. Worst- new head gasket when weather cools down. 1987 Sunbird keeps on driving!!


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