# Tile tub surround with window



## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

I will be starting to tear out the existing cheap and thin tub surround and replacing it with tile 12x12 tile. The shower has a window that is approx 24" x 36" and I will be tiling around it. Below are pictures of the shower now (note that this picture does not show the new vinyl O-X sliding window I put in).



















This will be my first tile job and I want to make sure I'm doing things right. I will be putting a mosture barrier underneith my durock and then using thin set to set the tiles.

One of my main questions is how to choose a layout. The Tub is 30" wide and the long wall is 59". I plan on tiling up to the top of the window which is 72" above the tub lip. I've read that all of your cuts should be done in the corners and that your corner pieces should be no less than half of the tile width, which in my case would be 6" since I have 12" x 12" tile. Is this true? Also should I start tiling from the bottom up? Or top down? My biggest challenge will be the window, so any help is appreciated. Thank you!


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

First let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

1. What are the walls made of now. They look as if they could be plaster. Is that right or wrong?

2. Is the window perfectly centered in the wall?

3. Well I don't have a 3 right now let's get this far first.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

1. The walls are drywall

2. The window is not perfectly center, I see how far off it is when I get home :wink:


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Here are some up close pictures of the new window...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Windows in showers are always a problem.

If you are only going to install tile to the top of the window you will have to remove the drywall to that point. Personally I would install tile all the way up to the ceiling.

The one wood piece under the sill is the apron and that should be removed totally and discarded. It is on top of the drywall anyway and will have to come off.

I would be tempted to also discard the window casings and re-work those corners (returns) also.:yes:


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Here is an update on my tear-out yesterday


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

That's a fair start. Looks like your siding might be leaking a little.

If you haven't already purchased your insulation and cement board I would suggest open face insulation and Denshield wall board.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

All of the wood is solid  I did already purchase some John Manville R-13 insulation. You would use Denshield wall board over durock?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I would use Denshield instead of Durock.:yes:


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

I took the window measurement while the sheetrock is torn off and it is almost centered. The left side is 17 1/4" from the wall to the outside of the window frame and it is 17 3/8" from the right side to the outside of the window frame.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

I went to the GP website to try and find a local store that carriers Densshield and there are no distributers within a 50 radius


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> I went to the GP website to try and find a local store that carriers Densshield and there are no distributers within a 50 radius


Well then....Durock it is.

I would consider waterproofing the Durock on its surface with liquid waterproofing. If you do, then you don't want to use a plastic vapor barrier on the studs. If you don't water proof the Durock on its surface then a vapor barrier on the studs is required but you can't do both.

What about the window, what's the plan for finishing there?


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

The local tile store provided me with Foresight Vapor Retarder for vapor barrier on the studs, its like a tar paper. Do you recommend just stapling it to the studs? I've also seen that some people use a roofing tar on the tub lip to adhear the vapor barrier to the tub lip and they also apply it to the studs and then staple. What do you recommend?

As far as the window goes, that is going to be my biggest challenge. I was thinking of putting the durock up to the little 1-by window stops and then just priming, painting and caulking the heck out of it since it is such a small amount of wood. And the window sill is probably only going to be 1" deep so I was going to put a couple pieces of bullnose on there? What do you think? Also, I'm doing a 3" x 12" bullnose border around the sides and top of all the tile.

You can see what I mean in the pic below. The tile will go to the red line.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> The local tile store provided me with Foresight Vapor Retarder for vapor barrier on the studs, its like a tar paper. Do you recommend just stapling it to the studs? I've also seen that some people use a roofing tar on the tub lip to adhear the vapor barrier to the tub lip and they also apply it to the studs and then staple. What do you recommend?


I wouldn't do any of that. Don't know why every time your tub area heats up you would want smell fresh tar.

Your best bet and the standard of the day (if there was one) would be to install the wallboard and waterproof it on the surface. Tile installations are not waterproof and water will get into your wallboard. cement board is used because water won't hurt it. But because it will get wet you need the barrier on the studs. 

If you waterproof the wallboard surface then you don't need the barrier and you don't want to use it for reasons of creating condensation inside the walls.


> The local tile store provided me with Foresight Vapor Retarder


Oh I doubt they "provided" you with it. I imagine they were more than happy to sell it to you. I'd take it back unopened.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> As far as the window goes, that is going to be my biggest challenge.


Here's my suggestion:

Buy a plastic wallboard termination. It is a "J" shaped piece that will wrap the raw edge of the wallboard. Fashion four of them around the window as you install the wallboard and fit them so that they lap the window jamb leaving about 1/8" of jamb revealed on all sides. The small juncture between the jamb-side and the J-molding can be later caulked when the tile is caulked.

This way you don't require window casings or any other nonsense to make it work.

Your tile then would finish at the corner of the "J" with a bullnose or even a metal tile edging.:yes: No sill, no casing, no apron.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> Here's my suggestion:
> 
> Buy a plastic wallboard termination. It is a "J" shaped piece that will wrap the raw edge of the wallboard. Fashion four of them around the window as you install the wallboard and fit them so that they lap the window jamb leaving about 1/8" of jamb revealed on all sides. The small juncture between the jamb-side and the J-molding can be later caulked when the tile is caulked.
> 
> ...


Do you have a pic or a link to a pic so that I know what I'm looking for when I go to the tile store?


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> I wouldn't do any of that. Don't know why every time your tub area heats up you would want smell fresh tar.
> 
> Your best bet and the standard of the day (if there was one) would be to install the wallboard and waterproof it on the surface. Tile installations are not waterproof and water will get into your wallboard. cement board is used because water won't hurt it. But because it will get wet you need the barrier on the studs.
> 
> ...


What would you use to waterproof the durock? And also as far as sealing the seams of the durock should I just use the tape that looks like netting
and go over it with thin-set?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Do you have a pic or a link to a pic so that I know what I'm looking for when I go to the tile store?


You won't find it at a tile store. You will find it at Menard's, Home depot, Lowe's, any lumber yard.

I'll try to find a picture.

You can't miss the things. They are sold in the drywall department of the home centers. They are found on a rack with long sticks of plastic corner bead and trims. Everybody has them.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> What would you use to waterproof the durock? And also as far as sealing the seams of the durock should I just use the tape that looks like netting
> and go over it with thin-set?


There are any number of liquid waterproofing products on the market.
*Menard's* has *Mapei HPG* found in the tile department.

*Home Depot* has *Custom Redgard* found in the tile department.

*Lowe's* carries one of the many *Laticrete* waterproofing products.

The seams get bedded with modified thinset and mesh alkali resistant tape embedded in the thinset.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> There are any number of liquid waterproofing products on the market.
> *Menard's* has *Mapei HPG* found in the tile department.
> 
> *Home Depot* has *Custom Redgard* found in the tile department.
> ...


I have heard of the RedGard. I don't have a Home Depot or Lowe's where I live. They are both about about 2 hours away, so I will have to look at my local home improvement store. The RedGard is just painted on with a brush or roller? Do I cover the entire surface of the durock with RedGard?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Here's a picture of the "J" molding product. Anyone that sells drywall should have these pieces.

http://www.plasticomponents.com/products.asp?CatId=3&SubCatId=17



> I will have to look at my local home improvement store.


Does your local home improvement store have a name?



> The RedGard is just painted on with a brush or roller?


Yes.



> Do I cover the entire surface of the durock with RedGard?


Yes.

Where are you?


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> Here's a picture of the "J" molding product. Anyone that sells drywall should have these pieces.
> 
> http://www.plasticomponents.com/products.asp?CatId=3&SubCatId=17
> 
> ...


Eureka, CA


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

I like Bud's finishing suggestions. A question tho- Do you intend to insulate and VB. the exterior wall behind the tub below the tub rim? Am not sure that I would be concerned about having a vapour barrier behind the cementitious backer board. Both should be well within (warm side of) the dewpoint of the insulated wall.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You can buy the drywall molding at Hensells in Arcada.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Marvel: I like Bud's finishing suggestions. A question tho- Do you intend to insulate and VB. the exterior wall behind the tub below the tub rim?


Good point!



> Marvel: Am not sure that I would be concerned about having a vapour barrier behind the cementitious backer board.


I would, and besides that's the recommendation of the tile industry unless it is done like has already been discussed. Did you read the entire thread Marvel?


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## Marvel (Sep 22, 2011)

I will go back and take another look - always prepared to learn something


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Post#12 and again in Post#14.

The OP has some decisions to make about his approach.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

So you recommend going with the RedGard on the durock and not using a vapor barrier on the studs? What are the positives on going with that option as opposed to the vapor barrier on the studs? I'm just trying to figure it out because I will have to spend about $100 on RedGard.

The local tile store gave me the roll of tar/felt type paper to go over the studs and just charged me $6.00 and told me to bring the roll back when I was done.

The insulation topic between you and Marvel was a little unclear to me. You would or would not insulate between the studs with the R-13 I bought?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> So you recommend going with the RedGard on the durock and not using a vapor barrier on the studs?


You betcha!



> What are the positives on going with that option as opposed to the vapor barrier on the studs?


The positives are you won't be saturating the cement board with water to run down behind your tub/tile caulked juncture, and developing mold will be less likely. Not that mold would be an issue anyway but there won't be the moisture necessary to feed the mold.



> I'm just trying to figure it out because I will have to spend about $100 on RedGard.


No you won't, one gallon/bucket will easily cover an entire tub surround. In fact you can add water to it if you like and cut it by 30 percent. That's what I do to get it to sink into the face of the Durock. I generally apply two maybe three coats and all from a single gallon/bucket.



> The local tile store gave me the roll of tar/felt type paper to go over the studs and just charged me $6.00 and told me to bring the roll back when I was done.


You can't do both. That's three times I said it now.:laughing:

We were talking about insulating below the tub line. That sometimes gets overlooked and the answer is yes. Same for the walls above the tub.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> You betcha!
> 
> 
> The positives are you won't be saturating the cement board with water to run down behind your tub/tile caulked juncture, and developing mold will be less likely. Not that mold would be an issue anyway but there won't be the moisture necessary to feed the mold.
> ...


Good to know that one gallon will do the whole job  I was thinking I would have to buy two gallons because the guy at Pierson's said one gallon will cover 35-40 sq ft. How much water should I add to the gallon to make it stretch further? Is two coats enough, or do you recommend 3?




Bud Cline said:


> You can't do both. That's three times I said it now.:laughing:


I understand that it's one or the other :wink:

This is a lot of good info. Thank you very much! :thumbup:


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

A couple other questions, what about where the durock and drywall meet, should I use tape and drywall mud to cover the joints? Or some other method?

My tub is 30" wide and I am using 12" x 12" tile and 3" x 12" bullnose that I want to border the outisde perimeter. To keep the tiling to the same 30" width of the tub should I cut my 12's to 3" in the corner and then run two more 12" x 12" and finish it will a 3" bullnose? Will it look weird with 3" in the corner?

Or, should I cut the 12 down to 6" in the corner and run two 12" x 12" and then finish it with a 3" bullnose? If I do that, I will have to extend the durock and tile 3" past the tub. What do you recommend?


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

I determined that I need to fur the studs out about 1/2" to reach the tub lip before attaching the cement board. And I need the thinnest cement board so it doesn't stick out too far past the existing drywall. I was hoping I could buy 1/4" durock, but it only comes in 1/2" but James Hardie, Hardie Backer Cement board comes in 1/4". Can I use this around by tub to put the tile on? I will still cover the entire surface of the cement board with RedGard.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

*HardieBoard or Durock?!*

I need to use thin cement board (hoping for 1/4") for my tub surround to put tile on. In order for the board not to stickout too far from the existing drywall 1/4" would be best.

James Hardy, Cement HardieBoard comes in 1/4" but it says it is for floors and countertops, but the local home store said I could use it for a tile tub surround.

Can I use the HardieBoard for my tile tub surround or do I need to use the 1/2" Durock?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

1/2" is the minimum thickness that can be installed on wall studs.

All cement boards do come in 1/4" but they aren't to be used for walls.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> 1/2" is the minimum thickness that can be installed on wall studs.
> 
> All cement boards do come in 1/4" but they aren't to be used for walls.


Why can't 1/4" be used to attach to wall studs?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Why can't 1/4" be used to attach to wall studs?


Not thick enough, not rigid enough, too flexible, grout won't stay, contrary to code.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Are you kidding?

Just minutes ago we discussed this in your other thread.

Do you think I'm telling you lies when I tell you 1/4" shouldn't be used? Do you think you will get more support if you start a new thread?

Keep all of this on one thread so it isn't so confusing for everyone.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

While you have the walls open I would also replace that galvanized piping with either PEX or copper depending on your preference. No sense in doing all this work and then having problems with your pipes.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Msradell said:


> While you have the walls open I would also replace that galvanized piping with either PEX or copper depending on your preference. No sense in doing all this work and then having problems with your pipes.


I had the plumber here yesterday and he cut the galvy out ran new pex and copper :wink:


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

mxingislife said:


> I had the plumber here yesterday and he cut the galvy out ran new pex and copper :wink:


:thumbup:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Please post exact same question in one forum, thank you. I merged your others....

Gary


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> Are you kidding?
> 
> Just minutes ago we discussed this in your other thread.
> 
> ...


Sorry Bud Cline, I posted the other thread before I got your first response. I wasn't going against your knowledge. I appreciate all of your info and trust it! I really appreciate all of your help :thumbup:

1/2" durock it is.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

GBR in WA said:


> Please post exact same question in one forum, thank you. I merged your others....
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Just an update as of this evening. Durock goes up tomorrow.

New Plumbing...


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Hey Bud Cline I called Hensel's to try and get some of the plastic j bead for around the window. They told me they were out and they could order me some but I would have to buy a case 

So I went looking around and found some FRP Molding and each side is 1 3/8" which is exactly the measuremrnt from my window to the durock.

How would you recommend attaching this? With thinset underneith one of the lips and maybe some nails? Should I tile up to where the corner is or stop tiling where the molding starts?

See pics below...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

The cement board is installed short of where I would have placed it. I would have continued it the the corner then lapped it with the corner trim using adhesive. THEN...the difference between the surface of the trim and the surface of the cement board would be filled with thinset. That product you have there is really too thick. You could have asked Hensel's who they sell to (drywall installers) and probably bought a couple of pieces from them.

Your on your own with that plan.


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Just wanted to post an update on how everything turned out. For my first tile job I think it turned out pretty good 

Now I just need to figure out what I want to do at the top of the tile where the tile and durock meet the drywall...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Huge gap at the tub! Is that gap filled with grout or caulk?


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## mxingislife (Oct 27, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> Huge gap at the tub! Is that gap filled with grout or caulk?


I know that was my big flaw in this job. The gap ranges from 1/4" up to 1/2" in some spots. It has caulking behind it and then grout.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> I know that was my big flaw in this job. The gap ranges from 1/4" up to 1/2" in some spots. It has caulking behind it and then grout.


Bummer! Unfortunately you can expect the gap to crack. When it does...the grout should be replaced with caulk. Not an easy task with a gap that big.

You could also consider adding some bull-nose along the tub. This would hide the gap but create two junctures to be caulked. May look better.

Overall the job looks great.:yes:


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