# Why I went into engineering/stupid things engineers do with car designs



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

WillK said:


> If anyone has any slick tricks to get past this before I take a pry bar to the alternator and pull until something breaks I would appreciate it.


ya. just dissassemble it in reverse of how they assemble it> Start with removing the body from the drivetrain, then you will have clear access to the alternator.

dang I've always wanted to tell an engineer that due to all the bloody knuckles I've had.

what is the bolt running into? Is it something you could drill from the other side to allow clearance (a requirement to change the water pump on an older Buick Century. same basic problem; bolt too long to remove)

if you can't do that, would it held to unbolt the motor mounts and lift the engine a bit? (manufacturer recommended procedure to change plugs on a V-8 Monza)\

I can't see that it would help to jack up the car, remove the right front wheel, use 3' of extension and a swivel (the manuf. recommended procedure to change a spark plug on a 1983 ? Chevy Impala V8 with AC.)

sorry for having the fun at your expense but I was serious about the drilling method and the lifting the engine method. Sometimes those engineers really put the shaft to the mechanics.


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## mickey cassiba (Mar 17, 2011)

Gettin' the old one out is easy...gettin the new one in...and workin', now there's the trick. I worked on forklifts for a number of years...talk about crowded. Gotta pull the hydraulic pump to change a fan belt.
Step back and look at whats in the way. Buy one of the rebuild books at your local part store. Take your time, and take pictures if your memory's like mine.
Try not to end up with any 'extra parts' at the finish line.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

My Ford's oil filter was mounted over something important (can't remember what - got rid of it years ago) but every time you changed the filter you would drip a little oil onto this other part leading to premature failure. 

Can't tell you how many times I've looked up directions online for doing one car repair or another that the directions included the term PITA. 

And Plastic clips. I really really really hate automotive plastic clips.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

nap said:


> ya. just dissassemble it in reverse of how they assemble it> Start with removing the body from the drivetrain, then you will have clear access to the alternator.
> 
> dang I've always wanted to tell an engineer that due to all the bloody knuckles I've had.
> 
> ...


I LMAO at that really. I remember in high school this kid that had a new Chevy Geo that lost a fan belt, and the dealer had to pull the engine to change it.

I started off with a '55 Ford with the inline 6. I climbed into the engine compartment and sat next to the engine to work on it.

So anyway, the bracket that the bolt is hitting is a support bracket for some of the HVAC tubing. This was as easy as moving that bracket forward 10 mm to clear that bolt. I got at the bolt for the bracket with an extension and a bit of an angle. Not ideal, but there's no downside to having designed it rightto begin with.

And yes, I absolutely know how it went in to begin with. Engines get built on a dress line, sometimes not even in the same plant, then get mounted on a subframe that gets lifted up into the body from below.

Everything I've done as an engineer, I make it my business to do my own work whenever I can doing assembly, installation, replacement, teardowns and repairs. Usually anything that makes a part more serviceable is also going to make it less expensive beccause it's easier (less labor intense) to assemble, rework is less likely and when needed can be done faster,


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

Leah Frances said:


> My Ford's oil filter was mounted over something important (can't remember what - got rid of it years ago) but every time you changed the filter you would drip a little oil onto this other part leading to premature failure.
> 
> Can't tell you how many times I've looked up directions online for doing one car repair or another that the directions included the term PITA.
> 
> And Plastic clips. I really really really hate automotive plastic clips.


I've seen a lot of oil filters over exhaust, maybe it was over an O2 sensor.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Wobble extension bars are your friend. Stubby, flex head ratchets are too.


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## Ron1320 (Apr 21, 2011)

been there myself in a similar situation for our old Alero. Thought I would change the belt, had it off the pulleys ready to pull out to find it made a loop around the motor mount. Had to get the engine hoist out just to change the thing


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

so, the alternator mount, bolt is going through, can not be removed?

bolt it is jammed against can not be undone with a ratchet box wrench?


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

charging section here has 3 easy steps generator removal. it is OEM Toyota manual. You sure you have a Toyota?
http://www.etimago.com/yaris/repairmanual/


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

ukrkoz said:


> charging section here has 3 easy steps generator removal. it is OEM Toyota manual. You sure you have a Toyota?
> http://www.etimago.com/yaris/repairmanual/


Look at page CH 10. They indicate a different bolt needing to be removed that what the OP is removing. The one the OP is taking out is about 8 oclock while that manual is directing that bolt remain but a bolt about 5 oclock be removed. That manual also shows a bracket on the top of the alt to allow for belt adjustment. The OP's appears to have an automatic tensioner.

I don't know where you got that info from but is there a chance to peak at an 08 model to see if it is like the one the OP shows in his pic?


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

The picture is looking down at the alternator lower mount bolt with the alternator clocked forward. The upper mount bolt goes into the slotted bracket, and the bolt mounting the slotted bracket to the engine block doesn't need to be removed but that's not the one I'm talking about.

This shouldn't really be a procedure where a manual is needed, it's pretty much been the same aside from the fact that the lower mount used to be done in 2 bolts, one at the front the other at the rear but that was 56 years ago before alternators started being used.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> so, the alternator mount, bolt is going through, can not be removed?
> 
> bolt it is jammed against can not be undone with a ratchet box wrench?


I just get pissy when I have to work on a car I have to drive. And when it requires tools I can't find because I moved, my garage is smaller, and I've never had occasion to dig them out therefore they are buried deep because the metric system is a tool of the devil, to quote grandpa Simpson.

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/thundercrack/224/metric.wav


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> WillK;638074]The picture is looking down at the alternator lower mount bolt with the alternator clocked forward. The upper mount bolt goes into the slotted bracket, and the bolt mounting the slotted bracket to the engine block doesn't need to be removed but that's not the one I'm talking about.


I know it isn't the upper bolt isn;t the one you are talking about. I didn't realize you had the alt tipped forward. So, this is the directions for what you need to do to complete the removal:




> (e) Remove fixing bolt B and remove the generator.


for some reason, they do not speak of needing to do anything special to remove the bolt. 

I can't tell in your pic but is the boss the bolt passes through first (as you are putting the bolt in) part of the mounting that remains with the engine or part of the alternator?

If it is part of the alt, it would appear you should be able to pick up the alternator with the bolt left in the boss. Because you are in the situation you are, I suspect that last part of the boss is part of the engine mounting.

So, although this really isn't that old of a vehicle, is it possible an engine mount has broken or shifted enough to cause the engine to set deeper in the engine bay than it should? While it really doesn't look like lifting it up a relatively small amount such as you might experience from a worn mount, I figured I would at least toss that out there. 

can you determine how much further you have to pull the bolt out to get it out? Is there any chance of simply wedging the engine towards the drivers side that amount without having to disassemble major components?


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

jackstand engine. looks like bolt head needs only another 1/2 inch clearance to slide out, and you can move engine more than that easy on mounts.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

oh, and that is official Toyota repair manual for Yarr-asses. that's where it came from.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

ukrkoz said:


> oh, and that is official Toyota repair manual for Yarr-asses. that's where it came from.


 It's not that I thought the manual was defective. It seems to be decent. I just did not realize that the alternator on WillK's car had been flipped forward and that slotted bracket removed or moved out of the way. I was thinking it might have been some mid year split and maybe the next years model showed what I though WillK had.

When I tried to chase it, using the site you linked, I kept getting stopped without getting anything. I figured you might be able to come up with an 08 manual.

It was all my mistake.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

This building things stupid isn't a new idea. The full size Fords in the 70's were set up where you removed the right front fender to change the blower motor. Some of the Mustang 2's, you undid the motor mounts and raised the engine to change the oil filter. When it comes to common sense, it isn't common. My brother worked for an airplane manu for years, his job was to figure out if what was being designed could be built.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

My 97 ford truck has to have the battery removed to replace the left headlight.
Took all of 5 minutes to replace the right one, and an hour to replace the left one.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

rusty baker said:


> This building things stupid isn't a new idea. t.


Yes, I have been hating engineers for years:tank:


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

nap said:


> I can't tell in your pic but is the boss the bolt passes through first (as you are putting the bolt in) part of the mounting that remains with the engine or part of the alternator?
> 
> If it is part of the alt, it would appear you should be able to pick up the alternator with the bolt left in the boss. Because you are in the situation you are, I suspect that last part of the boss is part of the engine mounting.
> 
> ...


So the lower pivot is what we refer to as a double shear joint, which is ideal because you aren't relying on the bolt to provide strength strictly by way of resisting bending stresses.

It's pretty standard for the alternator to be providing the outer ears. That is the configuration in this case.

So I am past all of this, in case it was missed I had to unbolt the bracket that supports the air conditioning pipes and my opinion is that there is no reason that bracket couldn't have simply been located 1/2" forward of where it is so the clearance to remove the bolt exists.

I would be VERY surprised to see that this was changed in any subsequent model year. For US producion, model year 2007 was when Yaris was introduced, although it was in production in Japan prior. Anyway, it is not in Toyota's nature to do mid-cycle changes. I've been at a supplier where we had considerable cost-savings proposals to offer and Toyota wasn't interested because the system was in production and they did not have resources assigned for design support once it was in production. (This is also likely part of the reason why the recall response was disappointing)

Without the bracket removed, I thought the bolt should've come out with the boss since I was able to see the first thread or two, but it apparently was still engaged in the engine block casting enough to prevent removing the alternator.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

so now you go and spoil the thread where we get to beat up on engineers.:cursing:

Just kidding. 

I had read the bracket bit previously but wasn't aware that solved the problem. I thought you still had a problem after that.

Great to hear it was solved long ago.

to mid cycle changes; it would be nice if everybody did that. Don't know how many times I had to hunt production dates or VIN just to buy a part because of it.


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## bpodskalny (Nov 3, 2011)

Biased opinion, I've been a Toyota tech for 5+ years.

They kept the same setup on most of the cars with that engine, atleast through the 2011 model year. Sometimes things like this are there simply because they needed to make something fit and serviceability was an afterthought. However, Toyota as a brand has made leaps and bounds in making their cars serviceable over the generations.

There isn't a week that goes by that I don't praise the heavens that I work on Toyota's.

Try changing the oil and filter in a VW in the driveway and you will know what I mean.


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

I worked for GM for 26 years and I do agree that these type applications were designed for "ease of assembly" on the assembly line. Granted, the engine was assembled actually "off-line" in the engine shop area, then transported to a "marriage point" to be placed within a frame or uni-body. That was a good point made at looking at this application and figuring out how to "reverse engineer" this. I know, a lot to remove to just change out the alternator, but maybe necessary.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's a simple example of idiotic engineering...

I recently went to replace the front brakes pads & rotors on my nephew's 92 Honda Accord. It turns out that the IDIOT ENGINEERS at Honda bolted the brake rotor to the INSIDE of the front hub assembly. Any of you who have ever worked on FWD cars know what that means.

Unbelievable.


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## Denbutt (Oct 22, 2011)

23 years as a GM tech. I put up with this crap everyday. All I can say as a Tech to a engineer, How's it feel? Throw the manual away and think outside the box. Figure out a way to raise the engine and pull the bolt. Good Luck!


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

Do you want an example of idiotic engineering? To change the headlight or front directional lamp in a 2006 Buick Lucerne you have to remove the grill, the bumper, an inner wheel well, the fascia underneath the car, etc.
Check GM instructions here :
http://www.mediafire.com/?qaubeshvn5p5e9u

Just another way GM tries to kill the shady tree mechanic and ensure you bring your vehicle in to their dealers. (FOR A LIGHT BULB????)
I changed my own and saved $300.
Soon you will have to bring your car in to the dealer to get the gas filer cap opened. :furious:


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

polarzak said:


> Do you want an example of idiotic engineering? To change the headlight or front directional lamp in a 2006 Buick Lucerne you have to remove the grill, the bumper, an inner wheel well, the fascia underneath the car, etc.
> Check GM instructions here :
> http://www.mediafire.com/?qaubeshvn5p5e9u
> 
> ...


Yet another excuse to slam professional mechanics. Not everyone knows how, or wants to work on their vehicle. Some people want nothing more than to fill it up with gas and turn the key. Or is that not ok?


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Master of Cold said:


> Yet another excuse to slam professional mechanics. Not everyone knows how, or wants to work on their vehicle. Some people want nothing more than to fill it up with gas and turn the key. Or is that not ok?


Master, I dont think hes trying to necessarily "slam"mechs- his point, even if you ARE the type that knows only to fill er up and press the pedal, no logic for Detroit (or Torino, or Leipseg, or.....) to go out of their way to make things hard- even for the pro's, eh? Like the $300 required to get in a new bulb- do you want a job like that? Would that add virtue to a pro mech's profession?


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## Master of Cold (Aug 7, 2011)

No..he is on here to call mech's crooks..he has a history.


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

Master of Cold said:


> No..he is on here to call mech's crooks..he has a history.


A HISTORY? Where in my comment in this thread did I refer to mechanics as crooks? I mentioned poor engineering, and GM.
Sir, and I use that term loosely, I had a debate with you in ONE thread, ONE thread, concerning the integrity of some mechanics. My contention was that much of the work, by some, was either unnecessary or certainly could be put off to a later date. I provided an example, made my points, and even apologized to those group of mechanics who do honest work. Regarding said debate, I concluded that you are not part of that group.
To use the phrase "Thou protests to much" has drawn me to that conclusion.
In future, unless I directly refer directly to you, please ignore my posts. I will offer you the same courtesy.


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

noquacks said:


> Master, I dont think hes trying to necessarily "slam"mechs- his point, even if you ARE the type that knows only to fill er up and press the pedal, no logic for Detroit (or Torino, or Leipseg, or.....) to go out of their way to make things hard- even for the pro's, eh? Like the $300 required to get in a new bulb- do you want a job like that? Would that add virtue to a pro mech's profession?


Well said. Thank you.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Master of Cold said:


> No..he is on here to call mech's crooks..he has a history.


Why are you being so danged defensive anytime somebody questions the integrity of any mechanic?

I'll fully admit that some (many?) of the people in my profession are crooks and/or perverts, because I'm not. In a weird way, the lack of integrity by some only highlights the true integrity of others.


Now... The fact is, some (many?) mechanics are thieves and hacks. You can admit that that is true, because (I assume) you're not a thief or hack.


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

DrHicks said:


> Why are you being so danged defensive anytime somebody questions the integrity of any mechanic?
> 
> I'll fully admit that some (many?) of the people in my profession are crooks and/or perverts, because I'm not. In a weird way, the lack of integrity by some only highlights the true integrity of others.
> 
> ...


Well said, and thank you.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Master of Cold said:


> No..he is on here to call mech's crooks..he has a history.


Hmmm, I am not aware of this- but geez guys, why cant we all be budies here? heck, I for one should owe gratitude to the fellow members here, as yous have helped me out so many times with car issues........Just dont see how holding a grudge helps....oh well.


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## D-rock (May 23, 2011)

Back to the $300.00 headlamp repair, most newer cars are designed with cleaner, smoother lines, thus in return you have less parts exposed. this in return makes it harder to do some external repairs (like remove headlamp assemblies for bulb replacement, or even some tail lamps) Besides most bulbs are designed to last 100,000 miles, so its not like a monthly repair. just my .02


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

D-rock said:


> Back to the $300.00 headlamp repair, most newer cars are designed with cleaner, smoother lines, thus in return you have less parts exposed. this in return makes it harder to do some external repairs (like remove headlamp assemblies for bulb replacement, or even some tail lamps) Besides most bulbs are designed to last 100,000 miles, so its not like a monthly repair. just my .02


I agree it is not a monthly repair...but it still is a costly affair. My car has 10 bulbs in the front. Each side has a high beam, low beam, directional bulb, turning bulb, and a side marker bulb. (5 per side) So say in February my high beam goes ($300) in May my directional goes ($300) and maybe in November my side marker bulb goes ($300) It is conceivable I could pay close to $1000 or more in a year, just for lamps. Probably wouldn't happen, but I think you catch my point. This thread was started concerning the engineering of cars these days, and I really think this could have been done better. My wife's car is a 2008 Lacrosse and a bulb in it can be changed easily in about 5 minutes. Two bolts and the whole light assembly pulls forward. 

Anyway, when I did my car, I replaced every bulb in the front end just in case. It is a job I don't want to do again any time soon. :laughing:


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## mgp roofing (Aug 15, 2011)

About 5 years ago, my 1994 Toyota light truck needed a new stereo head unit and speakers, to replace the hopeless Jap ones. Taking out the old stereo took nearly 5 hours, had to dismantle most of the dash to access the bolts. Then I examined the in-dash speakers I planned to replace, found that they are the first part to go into the cab; I gave up when I realised that the top section of the dashboard had to come out to access them, and to remove that required that the windscreen be removed! I ended up modifying the doors to take door mounted speakers, and managed to mount the replacement stereo so that it takes only 15 minutes to take out, not the 6 hours that the AM only Japanese device took to remove... Talking to the dealer I bought the truck from, he said that is typical of Toyota commercial; he once spent 8 hours removing (not including replacing) the stereo head unit of a Toyota Surf!!!


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

About 5 years ago I decided to drop in a LT4 Hot cam in my 1994 Camaro Z28. Pretty complicated and big job but the single step that took the most time? Reinstalling the #2 spark plug. I think that one little task took about 4 hours of trial and error. You can't see the plug... in fact you can only maybe touch the tip with your longest finger if you find the right way to contort your body and arm. So to get a tool on it takes a lot of imagination and luck. Getting the new plug started w/o cross threading takes even more luck. The way GM designed it you almost needed to lift the motor. The rear lower plugs that you need to pull the exhaust to get at were a piece of cake in ncomparison.

And to concur with an earlier poster... I HATE plastic clips and fasteners, every one of which needs a different little trick to release.


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## linuxrunner (Oct 18, 2010)

I would say it looks like Toyota has gotten better, on my 4runner I have to remove the lower radiator hose to get out the alternator. This means you need to completely drain the coolant...

Naturally both times i have needed to replace the alternator it's been in the winter and in the snow. 

It a give and take though, some things like that Alt stink to replace other things like the fuel pump only take about 15 min thanks to a handy access panel in the rear floor.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Now that is cool! No such luck with either of my vehicles (1994 Z28 and 2009 Toyota Tacoma). Many folks with Camaros take a jigsaw and cut out an opening to get at the FP instead of dropping the tank. I've not had to do that yet <knocking on wood>. I've heard that some folks with pickups pull the beds. I dunno... did an FP replacement on an old Chevy S10 and dropping the tank wasn't all that bad.



linuxrunner said:


> It a give and take though, some things like that Alt stink to replace other things like the fuel pump only take about 15 min thanks to a handy access panel in the rear floor.


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## bethomas (Jan 7, 2011)

haha this made me laugh. i used to do a lot of work on Toyota MR2's (engine swaps, transmission replacements and all other sort of maintenance when i had a pair of them) and wow, some of the things.... i needed kid hands to do. on the 3SGTE turbo engine there was a coolant hose for the temp guage. it was a $2 hose, about 4" long. but you basically had to remove the turbo and exhaust manifold to get to it. ugh. lots of bloody knuckles. the belts on maxima's suck trying to get to the tensioner bolt. no my father in laws 69 chevelle SS... lots of room to work haha.

Brandon

(mechanical engineer who went to college for auto industry - no in the water and wastewater equipment business)


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Yeah, probably half of all curse words were created by frustrated mechanics. I remember a "Driver" magazine back in my navy days that had a funny article on "exercises" to do to get ready to work on your car. One was to take a cheese grater to your knuckles to get used to the feeling of raw busted up hands. Another was to take a clothes iron to your arm to get used to getting burned by the exhaust pipes. Yet another was to get a large child wearing golf shoes (back when they had metal spikes!) to stand on your chest to get used to scraping yourself up on the car chassis.

Interesting about how different cars are engineered, too. I have a coworker that spent many hours during several days of on and off work to replace the timing belt on his VW Golf TDi. He said the same job on his Honda would have taken only 2 hours or so.


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## polarzak (Dec 1, 2008)

raylo32 said:


> Interesting about how different cars are engineered, too. .


And how they have changed over the years. I had a 67 Grand Prix...a land yacht by today's standards. There was so much room in the engine bay, everything was in easy reach. Now to just change plugs, you need to disconnect engine mounts, remove alternator, roll engine forward, or access underneath. (or take hours to remove just one plug) Hell, my current car doesn't have enough room in the engine bay for the battery. They put it under the back seat!.
I wish I had known of that cheese grater trick years ago. :laughing:


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