# New home roofing rippling/deflection issue



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If it was mine I start out with my 6' level up the the attic to just check to see if all the rafters are even. Even a piece of brick string pulled tight would work.
If the even then I'd be ripping off some shingles.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

*"Based on our testing and research we concluded that certain rafters  deflected out temporarily during extreme whether temperature change, resulting in visible shingle deflection."*

Visable shingle deflection???? 

Never heard of such an animal. The cause of what you have there is probably one or more of the following:

1. Sheathing not properly spaced during installation. Do you see clips between sheets of sheathing from below? Sheathing must be spaced minimum 1/8 inch on all sides during installation. Is the shething an APA rated panel? What is the Type, Thickness, and what is the spacing of the trusses?

2. Shingles were installed over wet, buckled felt.

I always specify minimum 5 ply 19/32 Fir plywood for its dimensional stability. You wont see that on many residential jobs, and that is why you see so many problems in the roofs of residential construction. People do not understand that the IBC is a life safety code, not an aesthetics code. The IBC is concerned that your foot wont go through it, they dont care if it looks like S**T


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## funfool (Oct 5, 2012)

My first thought was h clips for spacing, now the roof is expanding and contracting and sheathing is cut to tight.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I would think if the clips were left out the raised areas would be horizontal not vertical like these are. There is no clips on the butt ends.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

joecaption said:


> I would think if the clips were left out the raised areas would be horizontal not vertical like these are. There is no clips on the butt ends.


No, but you still need to space the sheathing on the short ends too.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

It looks like sheeting is butted too tight which, of course, you can't see from inside since they land on the trusses.


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone for you responses. To answer some of the questions you have. 1) The sheathing is solorbord-Norbord, it is 7/16" thick and it is "APA" rated. The rafters are on 24" centers.
2) I went into the attic to get a closer look. The rafters look like the problem to me. I laid a 4' level on 3 joists at a time, as I could see some unevenness when eyeing down the rafters from one end to the other. All are off to some degree which would be expected but some are off as much as a 1/2". I can rock the level easily if I center the level on lowest of the 3 joists. See the pictures I added to the post.
 3) I also noticed that the rafters as they rest against the (not sure my terminology is correct) ridge beam at the very top peak of the house which runs the full length of the home are not flush against the ridge beam. (See pictures) They tend to touch the ridge beam at the very top, but then drifts away from the ridge beam with a taper gap towards the bottom of the beam. In other words the cut is not at the correct angle so it is not flush against the ridge beam. Without the cuts being accurate and fitting flush against the ridge board is probably why I am finding the unevenness between each rafter when I laid a level between them. All the rafter ends were cut by hand and very few fit flush. 
Please let me know what you would suggest I do, should I hire an expert to look at this? Should the builder hire the non-biased expert? Should the builder fix this issue? Is there heat loss through the roof based on observing the snow picture? As I mentioned I do not want to get stuck with the repairing the roof later.


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks,Please see my response


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

How much gap is at the bottom of that one rafter? It looks like at least half an inch, terrible framing.

We run 3/8" ply on 24" centers here, and I've never seen deflection like that on a well built roof system.

I see an attorney in your future.


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## jsbuilders (Apr 13, 2013)

Well here 9/16ths at 24 oc with h clips. Or 23/32s with no h clips. We only use 7/16ths with 16oc and never use 3/8.

My guesses are bad framing, decking installed too tight, and lack of h clips.

What do you have for ventilation?

And good luck with your lawsuit!


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

daldelta said:


> are not flush against the ridge beam. (See pictures) They tend to touch the ridge beam at the very top, but then drifts away from the ridge beam with a taper gap towards the bottom of the beam.


I have five questions ......

what is the size of the rafters?

what is the distance from one side to the other where the rafters attach to either the outside walls or attic floor? (width of roof span)

is there any 2x4/2x6 members attached from the side of one rafter to the opposing rafter under the ridge beam? If you look down the ridge it would look like the letter A, the member I'm asking about would be the straight part of the letter. if there are, how often are they?

is there an attic floor or is the ceiling vaulted/cathedral?

what is the size of the ridge beam?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Was that picture of the buckled felt there before, or did I just miss it? This is a severely screwed up roof installation if that's the way they installed ice dams and went over wet felt.


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

GBrackins said:


> I have five questions ......
> 
> what is the size of the rafters?
> 
> ...


1)Rafters are 2*10 (1.5*9) and are 14' long
2)very hard to measure the span, attic has 3 heights and 5 dormers and with the insulation it is very hard to measure. The pitch is different on the back side of the house than the front. Measuring as low as I could on the floor to the back side of the house span is 12' to the centerline, and on the front as you see in the pictures it is 8'. There is more span but I cannot measure any lower do to the floors. If this helps on one end of the house from the top of the ceiling joist to the bottom of the ridge is 12' and the rafters are 14' long on each side. Let me know if you want me to be really accurate and I will get the prints out to measure the pitch and span,not a problem. 
3) No members from side to side tying the rafters together.There are vertical supports supporting the ridge beam. See my pictures, I have to delete some to add new.I can send more pictures as well email me at daldelta at aol and I will send more.
4) Yes, my ceilings on the 2nd floor of the home are 12' high, other than a hallway and bathroom. The attic has a floor and its 12' on one end as mentioned and has 2 other lower ceiling heights above the bathroom and hallway.
5)Actual size is a laminated beam 14" tall and 3.5" wide

FYI there are clips between the sheathing and there is a vent on the roofs ridge, it was a plastic piece that is shingled over and runs full length of roof minus a couple of feet on each end. Also have a vent in the gable on each end of the house. 
Thanks let me know if you need any more info and let me know your thoughts. Thanks Dave


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

jagans said:


> Was that picture of the buckled felt there before, or did I just miss it? This is a severely screwed up roof installation if that's the way they installed ice dams and went over wet felt.


 Just added,changing pictures based on responses. Can only have 6 at a time. Where are the ice dams in the pictures?


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## jsbuilders (Apr 13, 2013)

The gable vents are interfering with the air flow and should be blocked off.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I do not know what your building code is, so any comments as to code requirements would be based upon my knowledge of the International Residential Code (IRC), which is commonly used as the basis for local codes. you would have to verify your code requirements with the building department.

typically when rafters connect to either a ridge board, or in your case a ridge beam there is to be an uplift connection. This is a code requirement under the IRC. This can be accomplished by one of two standard methods.

1. use wooden members that are attached to the sides of opposing rafters. these are normally found in the upper 1/3 of rafters length and are commonly referred to as collar ties.
2. use of a metal tie strap applied over the roof sheathing that connect opposing rafters together. When the shingles on it may be difficult to determine if they were installed or not.

This connection is used to prevent the rafters from pulling away from the ridge board or beam, which seems to be something you have described. Of course they could have been off making their plumb cuts.

it sounds like the ridge beam was used because of the dormers, unequal roof pitches and ceiling configuration. When dormers are installed (depending on their width) you loose opposing rafters and need a beam to balance the roof loads or there will be issues with the ridge sagging. 

I would recommend based upon what you've shown and commented on that you seek the services of a professional engineer that specializes in wood frame construction and have them evaluate your existing construction. They can determine if you have any code deficiencies (based upon your code requirements) and the best course of action to take to fix/repair them. I know if I were in your situation I'd go this course.

I wish I had better news, or could provide a another solution, but I think this would be the prudent thing to do.

Good luck and keep us posted. Maybe other members will have other suggestions.


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

jsbuilders said:


> The gable vents are interfering with the air flow and should be blocked off.


JS: Can you please explain how they interfere with the air flow? Thanks


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## daldelta (Nov 15, 2012)

GBrackins said:


> I do not know what your building code is, so any comments as to code requirements would be based upon my knowledge of the International Residential Code (IRC), which is commonly used as the basis for local codes. you would have to verify your code requirements with the building department.
> 
> typically when rafters connect to either a ridge board, or in your case a ridge beam there is to be an uplift connection. This is a code requirement under the IRC. This can be accomplished by one of two standard methods.
> 
> ...


 Thank You for your help: Neither application 1 or 2 was used ,I was living on site as the home was built so I was able to see most of the build take place and I took pictures throughout the build. The house was inspected, but to what extent on framing I am not sure. 

One more question if you care to answer. I mentioned to the builder on a few occasions that the roof is still rippling even after he wrote the memo which said it would not. I have not forced the issue and hoped he would become pro-active and look into it. As I mentioned in my initial post he feels the house is completed and since he does not live here out of sight out of mind applies. 
Do you feel that the framing issues 1 and 2 that you listed are the reasons for the rippling or it is just not the correct way to frame? If 1 and 2 are the reasons and code in my area says they do not have to be done, am I stuck with the rippling.
Should I be the one that hires the expert (and the one to pay him/her) or should I tell the builder, you need to hire a non-biased expert? 
 Even if an expert would say it is only aesthetical not structural I still believe I will lose money down the road when I sell the home. I have never seen a home with this problem before including those built by my builder that I went and looked at. Something must be wrong.
 Just looking for suggestions on how to approach this issue that gives me the best shot at getting the problem resolved.
Thanks again.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

your not the first person to use that has had problems with that solarboard- Norbord. It looks like it has delmanated. That is why I hate being the first to try something new in construction. Let other people try it out and see if it works or not. for me 5/8th five ply CDX is all i would use for roof sheathing. if you want to find out if it has delamenated go in to your attic and push against the sheathing if it feels squishy you have sheathing that the glues have failed.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

if this connection does not hold it could be the cause of your rafter ends not being flush against the ridge. movement of the rafters could cause a ripple effect in my opinion, however my opinion does not really count thus the reason for recommending a professional engineer from your area. 

I myself would feel a lot better having an engineer of my choosing over the builders. Professional engineers are bound by a code of ethics so that part does not concern me, their knowledge and experience in evaluating structures does. As no two builders are equal, neither are engineers. 

You could discuss this with the builder but from comments it seems he does not believe it is caused by anything he did so I'm not sure what the motivation would be on his part. If the engineer finds deficiencies then I'd tell the builder he needs to pay for the engineer and fix his mistakes. In my state builders are licensed by the state and are subject to answer for consumer complaints. I do not know about your state.

Tough situation to be in. I do feel for you.

You could call and get estimates for the engineer's service, chances are they would have to come to to site to determine an estimate. If it were my home I wouldn't wait around, but them I'm usually a wimp when it comes to the money I spend on things.

Good luck.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Prior to about 1920 full 1 inch thick dimensional lumber was generally used for roof sheathing. From 1920 till about 1952, 3/4 inch Tongue and groove fir was used generally with 2 x 8 support at 16 inches on center After this 3/4 inch plywood was used. Then we went to trusses at 24 inches on center with minimum 1/2 inch CDX. Now one poster here says that he regularly uses 3/8 plywood supported at 24 inches on center.

Whats next, reinforced toilet paper supported at 32 inches on center by straws? 

And we wonder why the roofs are buckling and look like crap. What a freakin joke!

As Gary said in a previous post, just because you _*can *_do it, does not mean you _*should *_do it. People have a very serious misconception about codes. They think they are OK with codes. Codes are the absolute minimum you can get away with, and have nothing to do with aesthetics.

3/8 inch might support your weight, but it is probably going to buckle, and its ability to retain nails is crap. 

Local agencies that blindly follow the IBC are just plain ignorant. 

This poor poster now has a house that looks like crap due to an inadequately specified and installed roof.


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## jsbuilders (Apr 13, 2013)

daldelta said:


> JS: Can you please explain how they interfere with the air flow? Thanks


Read through this, it should answer any questions you may have. http://www.airvent.com/professional/resources/troubleshooting.shtml


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