# Easy way or hard way...or can hard way be easy way?



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

You seem in inner conflict. On the one hand you describe the walls as roughly this, not quite level, awfully old and on the other you seem almost overly anxious to rush out and get some rather expensive toys?

Obviously I will not try to talk you out of a ceiling jack but buying vs. renting? At least shop used? As for the other finishing tools? Up to you I guess. Why not put a little more energy into straightening out your walls and so forth. 

Unless you are going into the business with your project as a launch? Why not start with conventional tools and see how things go?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Hmmm...definitly the lift. Rent is probably the best option as you're only looking at a couple hundred sf of ceiling.

The banjo and such? I dont think I'd buy them. Seems to me, for one guy, it wouldnt save as much time as you think. Dont do as much drywall as I'd like so I could be wrong.

IMHO...when I walk into a house thats 172 years old I expect to see a wave hear and there. Sags are something else and need to be dealt with.
I think people make to much of the finshing process. I dont think I've ever walked up to a wall and said "Dude, I can see your butt joint". :laughing: Point is nobody looks. Do your best, paint it and move on.


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks sdsester. The jack I plan to buy and then sell on craigslist after i'm done. There was one local for $110 on there and it sold imediately. So i figured i'd buy a well reviewed on on amazon for $170 and sell it when i'm done for $120 or so. Because I wont be doing all the drywall in a few days, i'd like to be able to take my time and the rental costs would be more than just buying and reselling.

I've straighted out the wall that will hold my kitchen cabinets, but the rest really aren't too bad. I'll put furring strips where needed if i find some that are far out of line. I'd rather not buy the tools but if it would make the job that much easier and faster, it may be worth it to me and then just sell them when i'm done. 

I am hoping to get into restoring old houses (just trying to figure out how to manage it without having a builders license) in the near future, but I need to get mine a little further along. The taper I'm looking to get is the homax which is about $35 on amazon i think. Maybe it's best to get proficient doing it by hand anyway, seems like a good skill to have.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

autx790 said:


> Thanks sdsester. The jack I plan to buy and then sell on craigslist after i'm done. There was one local for $110 on there and it sold imediately. So i figured i'd buy a well reviewed on on amazon for $170 and sell it when i'm done for $120 or so. Because I wont be doing all the drywall in a few days, i'd like to be able to take my time and the rental costs would be more than just buying and reselling.
> 
> I've straighted out the wall that will hold my kitchen cabinets, but the rest really aren't too bad. I'll put furring strips where needed if i find some that are far out of line. I'd rather not buy the tools but if it would make the job that much easier and faster, it may be worth it to me and then just sell them when i'm done.
> 
> I am hoping to get into restoring old houses (just trying to figure out how to manage it without having a builders license) in the near future, but I need to get mine a little further along. The taper I'm looking to get is the homax which is about $35 on amazon i think. Maybe it's best to get proficient doing it by hand anyway, seems like a good skill to have.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::yes:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Spend your money on good quality blades--Ames is a good place to look,if you have one locally.

6" 10" and 12"---a round bottom pan will pay for itself in time saved on cleaning.

A round head sanding stick with Velcro paper is another nice tool.

Renting a power sander and vacuum should be considered,also.

Buy the big 3-M sanding sponges----big is best.

Learn the 3 types of mud and what they are for.-----Got to go---Mike----


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

thanks mr 12. You're right, people let a lot of things go when the house is so old. Especially around here...people will cram bathrooms into the smallest spaces. Funny thing is, when I bought this house, the majority of the house didn't have the original plaster, and they didn't fill it with drywall. They decided 1/4 plywood would be the material of choice. Couldn't really tell it wasn't drywall till you got into it a little. Maybe y'all are right and rent would be a better option for the lift. I have two rooms that are roughly 14x14 and one that is about 20x18 (including bathroom, bedroom, closet). One I'm going to leave the beams exposed in, so i'll just have to figure the best way to do that. Probably going to screw 2x2s along the beam and then the drywall to that (between the studs)

Thanks Mike, i'll get some good hand tools and do it the old fashioned way. I had thought about these tools cause I held out forever on buying a nail gun and boy was I glad after. Tools are fun, but theres something about doing things by hand thats got reward to it. I'll do some investigating on mud types. I have the type with green lid which I think i saw was good for taping but not so much as the finish (I think maybe i saw that in a post you did on another page).


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I mention the mud types a lot----

Other good things to have--a drywall screw gun---and a mud mixer or a BIG drill---the bucket muds go on much better with a good whipping.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

1300 sq.ft........ you will be there for hours just setting the tape by hand; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HriKOf4aMZk

Tips: http://bestdrywall.com/files/ReduceCallbacks.pdf

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/PDF/Free/021174058.pdf

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/tips/invisible-drywall-butt-joints.aspx

Fastener length, floating walls/ceilings, board orientation, thickness, etc.: http://gypsum.org/pdf/GA-216-2010.html

Minimum Code: http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_7_sec002_par010.htm

If using hot mud, I have a time-saver step, if interested....

Gary


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm interested...what dya have?


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks for the info! I'll probably get the collated screw gun at Home Depot, and will pick up the mud mixers as well. 

GBR, I do plan to buy the lift and that Homax taper, but i'm going to stick with the old fashion way to do the finishing. i'm not sure what the difference is with hot mud, but it's pretty hot here so I guess you can say it will be hot mud  Whats your tip good sir?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry, 12penny, my e-mail gets to me two DAYS after posting......Earthlink.
When I use hot (chemical or setting type vs. air drying, regular) mud, I need to get as much coverage as possible for that smaller job visit. I use paper tape on everything, with both muds because it's stronger and will cover a crack underneath better than fiber mesh tape.http://www.usg.com/rc/technical-articles/drywall-finishing-technical-guide-en-J1190.pdf

http://www.usg.com/rc/data-submitta...tapes-industrial-construction-data-MH1178.pdf
So I wanted a time-saver in applying paper tape with hot mud rather than mix, apply mud, apply tape, apply more mud. I use a plastic tray combo by cutting this down the center: http://www.harborfreight.com/multipurpose-tool-tray-92229.html
The two smaller leave joined, melt a slit with a soldering gun at the bottom sides of one and one end of the second. The paper tape roll sits in one, feeds through the slot below through both slots in the other. Add hot mud to the top already mixed loose pancake consistency in the empty tray, pull tape through; it wets the side that goes to the wall/ceiling before applying. I pull 25-35’ through, layering it on another box tray I attach to my belt at my side, on top of itself so no dry spots (wet to wet like wallpaper). Go to ceiling with 6” knife (trowel) in one hand, stick tape, pull tight with other hand at arms reach to snap-it on drywall, move another arms reach, snap again, etc, cut end with blade, do another joint, etc., then wipe with blade to seat tape-never air bubbles because of mud consistency and coverage from going through trough. The other long tray has a wooden block in the bottom (inverted “V” shaped like the corner bead, keeps the mud from under it) with slots melted for the angle of the outside papered bead. Pull the c.b. through, stick on corner, quick smooth, apply top coat of hot mud, second coat, then drying mud. The two-tray fits in a 5 gal. bucket to easily clean with a car wash brush, long stiff bristles to reach the corners. This is instead of banjo…….. You save the first mud applying step with trowel. Your arm is ½ as tired, get more work done in same time.

Do you need home-made zip poles to contain the dust……….

Gary


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

GBR in WA said:


> Sorry, 12penny, my e-mail gets to me two DAYS after posting......Earthlink.
> When I use hot (chemical or setting type vs. air drying, regular) mud, I need to get as much coverage as possible for that smaller job visit. I use paper tape on everything, with both muds because it's stronger and will cover a crack underneath better than fiber mesh tape.http://www.usg.com/rc/technical-articles/drywall-finishing-technical-guide-en-J1190.pdf
> 
> http://www.usg.com/rc/data-submitta...tapes-industrial-construction-data-MH1178.pdf
> ...


 I've seen guys do something similar, only as I remember they used a small cardboard box.

I have a basement remodel coming up in a couple weeks and I'll be sure to give a go. For 3.99 its worth a shot.

Thanks Gary


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

AUTX90,
I'm curious where in SC are you? I'm up in Asheville and travel every so often to the upstate for work on the lakes and golf courses. 
I'm going to offer my two cents here and apologize in advance for stepping on any toes in the process. I'm here to help out and help AUTx from getting into something he may be sorry for later on. I've been finishing drywall for 22 years with tools. I whole heartedly disagree with the nobody notices drywall comment. So will your realtor later on when/if you go to sell.
Buy the banjo and a 10" Comumbia "fat boy" flat box. 2 handles, (one extended for the ceiling and a shorty for the walls) and a blue line angle roller....google "All Wall tools" they have the best deals...........YOU WILL NOT REGRET SPENDING THE MONEY!!! and DO NOT go to Ames to get them.
1)water is your best friend...and so is the little black hose that hooks to the back of your washer and dryer. Get the hose and cut off the male end...this is your cleaning tool. when hooked to your faucet outside it will be equivalent to a pressure washer and will save you a lot of head aches. 
2) go to Tucker Materials if you're near to Greenville or Columbia. If not find your local drywall distributor and buy your mud there. Buy...2 types of mud. Black Lid Goldbond for your taping only...you will need 5 cans.....buy 8 more cans of a light weight mud..I prefer Ruco..but any light weight will do. DO NOT buy hot mud (bag mud) this is the biggest mistake you could ever make. stay away from USG plus3 .as well, it is for texturing and will crack later on. you will need 4 500' rolls of tape as well.
FYI home depot and lowes do not sell professional grade corner bead. Buy your corner beads from the distributor as well. You will regret buying the cheap stuff, it will cause cracks later on and will be a pain in the butt to nail on correctly. 

About the tool purchases.
before you even start taping walk through and check for any loose spots and blown out corners. Cut them out with a razor knife and pack with straight black lid mud.
get to know your banjo and how it functions. Walk through and tape all those cut outs you just filled up. You can tell the sign of a professional by the size of knife he carries. Your primary knife should be a 5" knife not a six. it is more ridgid and will cut the tape smoother. buy an 8inch to wipe your tape down.
Start on your ceiling butt joints. tape them first and wipe them down. Tape your ceiling seems second. DO NOT tape your angles yet. run through the entire house taping everything but the angles. ceilings and walls. when you are finished clean up your tools and walk back though the house cleaning off any mud that spilled onto the walls , especially in your angles.

Time to break out that angle roller.....oil it up with wd 40
start on the walls this time, you will need to kick an empty bucket around with you.. This is where it gets tricky for me to describe the the technique. Your objective is to leave as much mud on the backside of the tape without smearing it all over or pressing it too tight into the angle. supposing you are right handed. pulling the tape from the banjo reach as high as you can from the floor stick the tape with your left hand but only at that high spot. as you work your way to the ground press the tape gently into the angle every ft or so....do not press it tight. Cut the tape at the bottom and reap in other angles, 4 or 5 .
Grab the roller and dip the head into the mud you are taping with. Shake off the dripping stuff. PLace the roller squarely into the midway point of the angle. roll it up and then roll it down. Do this pressing harder and harder for about four times then move to the rest of the angles you taped. After you've rolled them out put the roller into a bucket of water. Grab the empty bucket and get on it in the angle. this will give you more leverage to wipe the tape cleanly. step down and wipe the bottom half then move on, keep repeating until the house is taped.
You will fall deeply in love with your angle roller making it the best purchase of the drywall job.

Bed coat with the flat box. I say this in confidence. Learn how to use you break on your handle, "which is not hard", and you've past you biggest hurdle. On your box you have settings and adjustment screws on each end of the blade. Columbia's boxes are easy to adjust. Start your setting on the second level. and the ends of the blades shoe be flush with the shoes(metal skids) on each end. FYI....my wheels on my boxes rarely touch the surface of the drywall. I use the brake to hold the wheel just off the wall. This is where most new tool finishers fail. Using your break will make the job simple.
three rules to follow
always keep your blade clean. always walk through before boxing and check for unlevel seems for they will need to be ran by hand, same with the butt joint, DO NOT use flat boxes on butt joints. Do your ceilings first.

I can not stress enough how much simpler your life will be if you purchase the tools and use them...not to mention how nice the job will turn out.

Only buy the one box. put the finish coat on by hand. friend me on facebook https://www.facebook.com/drywall.Asheville

good luck


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

I swear I replied to this but it didn't seem to take. 

Thanks for the info! It's gonna take me a little bit to digest it all. I used to have a friend in Columbia that worked for Tucker materials but i'm living in Charleston now. I was going to go to HD to get my materials and couldn't find any suppliers here in town, but i've since found a couple that I will check out today or tomorrow. Just need to figure out how best to estimate the size and amount of drywall I need. Do you think 5/8" gives a worthwhile benefit in sound reduction? I'm thinking to use that on the ceiling and maybe exterior walls. Yesterday I ordered my lift, homax banjo and a sander that can hook to my shop vac. I'm not sure if i'll order that flat box. I've never seen one on craigslist here for sale so i'm not sure how much i'd be able to get in resale when I'm done and I dont know if I can shell out another $350 right now. But give me a day into mudding and we'll see how I feel then.


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

5/8th rock is great for both sound and hiding old framing issues. As for reselling the box.....not likely in todays economy


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks...I did my best to estimate the amount i'll need and any left over I can just save and use for a room upstairs i'll need to refinish. I'm going to get 100 sheets of 5/8" 4x12. The guy at the store said they only have the heavier mud in the cans and that i will need 1 bucket for every 10 sheets and the same for rolls of tape. Does this sound about right? Should I go somewhere else to be able to get the two different kinds of mud?


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

250 ft roll paper tape for every 25 boards. as a rule take your floor footage''''example 1300sq ft and divide that by ten to get your board count....130 boards
keep in mind you also have ten ft ceilings. one extra board for every 24 ft of wall. 
you want the light weight mud by the way....you will be cussing yourself later if you dont get it....sanding sucks


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

Well I finally got all the drywall hung (88 sheets of 12ft boards). I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to hire out for the finishing. I'm getting everthing from $9/board to $0.57/sqft. I dont really have $2500 to spend on labor right now for something I think I could do. Though it would be nice and much faster to have someone else do it. My question now is, I have a lot of joints where there is a tapered edge butting up to a cut piece. Do the flat boxes still work well for a joint like this, or are they made to only work on like-edges?


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

$9 dollars a board is not $2500. that price sounds about right for a professional finisher.
To answer your question though...no. Only use boxes on your factory to factory seems. Split your joints like that like you would a butt joint. If you use a box you will leave too much mud and mounding will occur.

https://www.facebook.com/drywall.Asheville


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## autx790 (Aug 30, 2009)

great, thanks for the info! Sorry, I didn't equate the $9/board to sq ft pricing. the $2500 is about what I was getting but someone had said he'd do $9/board which was a lot cheaper. Doesn't matter much though, once he saw the job, that price didn't stick. Which I could understand. I'm still torn trying to figure out if i should tackle this my self. I know I could do it, but I'm wondering if it might take a lot longer than I think. Mostly cause of the exposed beams in one room, 10ft ceilings, and a 28ft tall stair well. It would be real nice to have it painted before thanksgiving.


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## paparocks (Jun 29, 2011)

28 ft stairwell...is still a stairwell. 4 years ago as a rule I always priced jobs between $8's for 8ft ceilings $9's for 9ft and $10 for 10ft. even with a 28ft stairwell that price wouldnt change because most houses with 10ft ceilings have stairwells 18ft or higher. With the way the economy is going Ive been finishing anything over 80boards at $9's as long as I can reach the ceilings off stilts....and that typically includes a high "great" room. Too bad you're not a little closer, I'd love an 88 board job right now. I've resorted to working hourly doing restoration work. I run ads continuosly through craigslist, angieslist, and facebook and am in the #1 spot on google for Asheville drywall. 
I think a lot of times people just dont know who to call when looking for drywall help. Most think the drywall contractor...... when they should be thinking the drywall sub contractor IE; the guy that actually does the work. Then you get it going in the other direction where the guy that thinks he's a drywall contractor and just has familiarity with the trade and over prices his self right out of a job. Whoever gave you the price by the ft. is still living in the housing boom dream state. lol.. Reality says the cost of labor adjust to whatever the labor market pays....if the drywall tradesman cant do it for the money that is consumer friendly, then he really didnt need the job anyway because he doesnt see any value in it. A resentful drywall finisher cant ruin a job...That's why whenever I look at a job I think of the most efficient way to get it while at the same time reminding myself its just another drywall job. eventually it will be conquered and ready to paint. 
what to do: assuming you live near a median size city, go to craigslist and run an ad in their help wanted section stating... wanted drywall finishing sub with insurance ..only reply to the english speaking callers and ask to see their last job. If the caller cant give you a recent job to look over he probably isnt legitimate or a very good finisher. The ones that can, tell them you want a per board price and ask what they charge per board for $10 ceilings throughout with the stairwell. Most professional finishing subs can tell you over the phone roughly what t5he job would cost. me myself depending on the way the job was hung $10 per board. good luck


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