# Fire blocker for basement



## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Whitish foam is not fire blocker. In fact it will smolder and give off gasses that you don't want in your house. Why is he using ANY foam product as a fire block? Are we talking about a lot of foam, or just lines where there are voids? Pictures really help us to help you, so post away.


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

looks like lot of foam and used vertically for each stud. Will post pictures. Not sure why he used it and since we dont know much about it, we left it to him.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kris13 said:


> looks like lot of foam and used vertically for each stud. Will post pictures. Not sure why he used it and since we dont know much about it, we left it to him.


Some one building with wood should be doing fireblocking with wood, Every stud does not sound right. 
Can you post some pictures one where the wall meets the ceiling.


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

these are pictures of the white foam used


----------



## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

All the fireblock foams I know of are orange, not white.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Some place call for air stoppage in a lot more places than fire stopping. What code is he trying to satisfy?


----------



## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Not sure how you can pass inspection with drywall up, so it would have to come down for rough framing inspection anyway. In a basement, I don't know if your AHJ would do a separate insulation inspection (that's when they would check gap fill for penetrations described in #3 below). But your fireblocking would be present in rough framing.

There's some things that are misunderstood about fireblocking. For a basement in the U.S., fireblocking is required by the IRC in these areas: 
1) _At the vertical connection to the ceiling._ It is to prevent fire and hot gases spreading from a wall stud cavity via chimney phenomenom up into the ceiling joist spaces and carrying across the house. Typically, that fireblock is provided by the 2x top plate of the wall framing. When you have soffits, lowered ceilings, and stairs, it is a bit trickier, but the same solutions still apply. When you have to add material for fireblocking (e.g. it does not naturally happen in the framing method via the top plate), the best and most realistic options are 2x wood, 1/2" drywall, or batt insulation. Yes, the insulation can be the cheap pink fiberglass.
2) _Behind a wall if there is open space beyond 10' across._ It is to prevent the same fire and gas from moving horizontally and spreading behind walls. Again, the same materials of 2x wood, 1/2" drywall, or batt insulation can be used, at 10' intervals. However, realize that a separate issue of wall condensation in a basement is a huge priority, so how you insulate, and whether there is a horizontal gap, may contribute to this requirement.
3) _At pipe, wire, or duct openings through this fireblock at the ceiling._ Any gaps should be filled. This material does not have to comply with ASTM E136 requirements, so that means it does _*not*_ have to be a fire rated foam, but just the regular insulation spray foam or painter's caulk would suffice. Maybe even chewed up gum if you can provide manufacturer data. It is intended to just fill the gap, not withstand a fire for 8 hours. Note the foam is allowed for these penetrations because it is just annular fill of small gaps through the actual fireblock of #1 or #2, but foam cannot be the only fireblock of #1 or #2 in and of itself.

So, from your pictures, the foam behind every stud and around the duct at the wall indicates little knowledge (also no cavity insulation method and wall drywall installed before ceiling drywall is questionable). Any foam is the wrong product to meet the 10' horizontal rule. And, some inspectors do like to see the red-orange foam color, but again, that would just be at penetrations in the fireblock only, which occurs at the ceiling through the top plate or at electrical crossing through studs 10' apart horizontally.


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

3onthetree said:


> Not sure how you can pass inspection with drywall up, so it would have to come down for rough framing inspection anyway. In a basement, I don't know if your AHJ would do a separate insulation inspection (that's when they would check gap fill for penetrations described in #3 below). But your fireblocking would be present in rough framing.
> 
> There's some things that are misunderstood about fireblocking. For a basement in the U.S., fireblocking is required by the IRC in these areas:
> 1) _At the vertical connection to the ceiling._ It is to prevent fire and hot gases spreading from a wall stud cavity via chimney phenomenom up into the ceiling joist spaces and carrying across the house. Typically, that fireblock is provided by the 2x top plate of the wall framing. When you have soffits, lowered ceilings, and stairs, it is a bit trickier, but the same solutions still apply. When you have to add material for fireblocking (e.g. it does not naturally happen in the framing method via the top plate), the best and most realistic options are 2x wood, 1/2" drywall, or batt insulation. Yes, the insulation can be the cheap pink fiberglass.
> ...


Thank you very much for the detailed explanation on this subject. from all your valuable replies, it is obvious that whatever has been done with the so called fire blocking is not right. I think that contractor has realized it later and stopped coming. But we already lost quite good amount to him  . Lesson learned hard way.

Since this is what we have in basement currently (half done), can you please suggest a solution to pass permit without ripping of all the walls with a minimal expenditure?


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

btw, realized that he did not even use horizontal beams. One contractor who visited today told me that fire blocker along the studs is not needed as it does not adjoin to other wall and the horizontal beam was not put because he was able to attach the studs to the ceiling studs which runs perpendicular to the wall framing studs. 

Another contractor showed up and he said that we have to rip off all the sheet rock and rebuild the drywall as the orange fireblocker is not present  . Not sure who is correct and who is not.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kris13 said:


> Thank you very much for the detailed explanation on this subject. from all your valuable replies, it is obvious that whatever has been done with the so called fire blocking is not right. I think that contractor has realized it later and stopped coming. But we already lost quite good amount to him  . Lesson learned hard way.
> 
> Since this is what we have in basement currently (half done), can you please suggest a solution to pass permit without ripping of all the walls with a minimal expenditure?


Building proper firestop is really hard with no top plate on the wall, he didn't know what he was doing. 
Explain what the situation is to the inspector and ask them to inspect and tell you what needs to be done. 
Every one you ask will have an opinion, starting over is the right one. Anything less can only be aproved by the inspector so his is the only opinion that counts.


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

Nealtw said:


> Building proper firestop is really hard with no top plate on the wall, he didn't know what he was doing.
> Explain what the situation is to the inspector and ask them to inspect and tell you what needs to be done.
> Every one you ask will have an opinion, starting over is the right one. Anything less can only be aproved by the inspector so his is the only opinion that counts.
> View attachment 697479


Thank you for your prompt response. I think what you suggested is reasonable. Will start with inspection first. Thanks again. You are all very helpful.


----------



## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

kris13 said:


> btw, realized that he did not even use horizontal beams. One contractor who visited today told me that fire blocker along the studs is not needed as it does not adjoin to other wall and the horizontal beam was not put because he was able to attach the studs to the ceiling studs which runs perpendicular to the wall framing studs.


Interpreting that there is no top plate, and the pic shows no screws horizontally at the top of the (vertically placed) drywall, so probably left out. Drywall is relatively cheap at $8 sheet. You can even rip it down yourself, destruction is easy. Then with the drywall down, you can figure out what needs fixed and redone. You should review basement insulation and condensation, there are a bunch of threads here and links to Green Building Advisor and JLConline and such. 


kris13 said:


> Another contractor showed up and he said that we have to rip off all the sheet rock and rebuild the drywall as the orange fireblocker is not present  . Not sure who is correct and who is not.


The contractors are not really correct if they are just looking at foam behind studs and around the wall duct. If there is no top plate, there probably is no foam to scrape off and redo. Remember what I said earlier that foam does not act as a main fireblocker (that is what 2x, drywall, or batts do), foam is only to fill tiny gaps in the holes around ducts and romex and PVC pipes.
The inspector is the one who decides what kind of foam you use. If your locale has amended code, it is IRC Section R302.11(4) which specifies the annular fill. Ask to see the amendment that your city has passed that requires stricter requirements for "red-orange" rated foam as gap fill in single family residential. 

Pull a sheet off and take some pics of the framing. Take some of the overall basement too. I predict there is more that is wrong, or could be detailed better for a nicer basement. Come back and we can help further before you start throwing more money at contractors. Even if you are hiring out, it is good to research and learn enough yourself so you can watch the fox in the henhouse and know you are getting what you paid for.


----------



## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

You can google images of "fireblocking basement top plate" to understand what it consists of. To help out, here is a pic of 2x blocking put under the top plate to fill the gap between the wall studs and concrete foundation wall:









And here is a picture using drywall to cover that same space, with the foam only to fill the tiny gaps around romex:










Here is a pic showing a fireblock (in blue) when you have rigid insulation against the concrete foundation wall:









So there are different ways to accomplish fireblocking, which really should be thought about how you will do it before you raise your first stud. The foam is pretty much an afterthought though.


----------



## kris13 (8 mo ago)

3onthetree said:


> Interpreting that there is no top plate, and the pic shows no screws horizontally at the top of the (vertically placed) drywall, so probably left out. Drywall is relatively cheap at $8 sheet. You can even rip it down yourself, destruction is easy. Then with the drywall down, you can figure out what needs fixed and redone. You should review basement insulation and condensation, there are a bunch of threads here and links to Green Building Advisor and JLConline and such.
> 
> The contractors are not really correct if they are just looking at foam behind studs and around the wall duct. If there is no top plate, there probably is no foam to scrape off and redo. Remember what I said earlier that foam does not act as a main fireblocker (that is what 2x, drywall, or batts do), foam is only to fill tiny gaps in the holes around ducts and romex and PVC pipes.
> The inspector is the one who decides what kind of foam you use. If your locale has amended code, it is IRC Section R302.11(4) which specifies the annular fill. Ask to see the amendment that your city has passed that requires stricter requirements for "red-orange" rated foam as gap fill in single family residential.
> ...


Thanks much! I think I was late in the game to educate myself. But glad that i found this forum. Thank you for all the valuable inputs. I already started my research now


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kris13 said:


> Thanks much! I think I was late in the game to educate myself. But glad that i found this forum. Thank you for all the valuable inputs. I already started my research now


Take pictures when you have it open so we can make suggestions.


----------

