# Misdiagnosed plumbing job - would you pay?



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Please be patient--There are a couple of plumbers here that specialize in locating leak like yours--

You need the opinion of an expert in that field--Mike--


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Try to describe what tool he used to 'hear' the leak--did they ever locate one?


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Holy cow. Something is really wrong with this scenario.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

*It was the Temecula Leak Detection* and they did not find any leaks.



oh'mike said:


> Try to describe what tool he used to 'hear' the leak--did they ever locate one?


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

It would seem most of the cost went to manual labor for three guys.

They removed the 20 ft marble counter(one piece), the cabinets, disconnect the sink, disposal, and jack hammered about an area of 2x2. After searching for an hour (thank goodness I was there to watch and ask for their findings) they refilled the hole and replaced all fixtures.




DrHicks said:


> Holy cow. Something is really wrong with this scenario.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Did you ever figure out if you actually have a leak? Is the meter still spinning when the fixtures are all off?


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Did you sign a workorder prior to the plumbers starting the work?

If you did, read it, if there no garantee (which I doubt there is) then I am afraid that you are liable for the cost of the non-repair. You may be able to talk to the company about the amount charged, possibly mentioning that you may have to get your uncle who is a lawyer to look into this.

If you didn't sign a work order, then the company proceeded without your authorization, and they are liable.

I wish you luck with this one, doesn't sound like it will be a good time at all.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

I signed an "Excavation Proposal" but it stated the work to be done. I've read the "fine print" and nothing is mentioned of misdiagnosed problem.

Yeah, three guys and ten hours of heavy lifting and the smell of their cigarettes. Having a blast, wish you were here! 

Thanks for your reply.



Jackofall1 said:


> Did you sign a workorder prior to the plumbers starting the work?
> 
> If you did, read it, if there no garantee (which I doubt there is) then I am afraid that you are liable for the cost of the non-repair. You may be able to talk to the company about the amount charged, possibly mentioning that you may have to get your uncle who is a lawyer to look into this.
> 
> ...


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You need to speak to a lawyer about the bill issue.
Tracing the leak might be done DIY through looking at the house layout and determining the exact path the water lines take.
Ron


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## BLB (Jan 14, 2011)

If "excavation proposal"includes the word "and Repair"then you are probable responsible to pay.talk to contractor co. they obviosly did not fulfil thier contract if they if they did not solve problem.


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## KarlJay (Dec 9, 2009)

Wow! that sucks. Sorry to hear about this. I don't know if this will help, but I re-did all the plumbing in my slab home and you might be able to save a few bucks by leaving the old plumbing alone and running new pipes. On mine I was able to dig on the outside of the foundation to find where the main lead came in from the street.
With one leak being that much trouble, you might fix that one and have another just around the corner.
My plumbing is all on one side of the house, so I can run from the street over to that side and redo the whole thing myself for the cost of the materials.
I'd concider WHY you have a leak... My guess is that your pipes are a bit old and might be best to replace all.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

That's the most....intelligent thing I've ever heard!!!

The house is 26+ years and eventually another pipe will have to be addressed later in the future.

BTW, how deep were the trenches so your pipes did not freeze during the winter? North east can see -0 during the winter




KarlJay said:


> Wow! that sucks. Sorry to hear about this. I don't know if this will help, but I re-did all the plumbing in my slab home and you might be able to save a few bucks by leaving the old plumbing alone and running new pipes. On mine I was able to dig on the outside of the foundation to find where the main lead came in from the street.
> With one leak being that much trouble, you might fix that one and have another just around the corner.
> My plumbing is all on one side of the house, so I can run from the street over to that side and redo the whole thing myself for the cost of the materials.
> I'd concider WHY you have a leak... My guess is that your pipes are a bit old and might be best to replace all.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

BLB said:


> If "excavation proposal"includes the word "and Repair"then you are probable responsible to pay.talk to contractor co. they obviosly did not fulfil thier contract if they if they did not solve problem.


 This doesn't make any sense. See if you can edit to say what you mean.
Ron


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

The house is 26+ years and eventually another pipe will have to be addressed later in the future.


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## Tizzer (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm puzzled. Roto-Rooter used a detection system which came up negative. Yet plumber "heard" a leak in the slab underneath the sink, then proceeded to jackhammer the said slab only to come up negative.
As mentioned, check your meter or water bill to see if you really have a leak.

I work at an older apt. complex built on slabs and never heard water running underneath the floor. How does one hear a leak in a slab?


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## KarlJay (Dec 9, 2009)

Ugh said:


> That's the most....intelligent thing I've ever heard!!!
> 
> The house is 26+ years and eventually another pipe will have to be addressed later in the future.
> 
> BTW, how deep were the trenches so your pipes did not freeze during the winter? North east can see -0 during the winter


I'm in Sacramento, CA and we don't have that kinda problem. You should be able to call your city to get some codes. One other upside is that ALL my hot's are fully insulated and I ran an extra 1/2" hot on the far runs so that I get hot water faster.
1/2" pipe holds less than 50% of what a 3/4" pipe holds, that's 50% less cold water that needs to be pushed out of the way for you to get to the hot water.
The down side is that maping out the lines can be a bit rough, I measured MANY times and only had 1 correction to make.

Back to original question, I wouldn't pay a cent. Start with legal advise as you may have been scammed. You hired a pro and they should have better knowledge about this. I'd be really pissed.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

Leak detection units works like a giant hearing aid, sounds are amplified loud enough to hear, like running water. Once the user determines the area of the source he then checks the surrounding area to narrow the area. 

Really? Check the water bill? I'm suppose to wait a month to see if I have a leak. I have a better solution....how about I shut the main line and see if the red indicator spins? UGH!!! 




Tizzer said:


> I'm puzzled. Roto-Rooter used a detection system which came up negative. Yet plumber "heard" a leak in the slab underneath the sink, then proceeded to jackhammer the said slab only to come up negative.
> As mentioned, check your meter or water bill to see if you really have a leak.
> 
> I work at an older apt. complex built on slabs and never heard water running underneath the floor. How does one hear a leak in a slab?


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

I will re-route both cold/hot water lines through the attic for a fraction of the cost. 

KarlJay came up with the best solution and spoke to their manager, they waived the charge of 5,100.00. It seems Roto Rooter can not charge for misdiagnosed work. :thumbup:

KarlJay, if you're ever in PA. the first Cheese steak is on me!!!! 



KarlJay said:


> I'm in Sacramento, CA and we don't have that kinda problem. You should be able to call your city to get some codes. One other upside is that ALL my hot's are fully insulated and I ran an extra 1/2" hot on the far runs so that I get hot water faster.
> 1/2" pipe holds less than 50% of what a 3/4" pipe holds, that's 50% less cold water that needs to be pushed out of the way for you to get to the hot water.
> The down side is that maping out the lines can be a bit rough, I measured MANY times and only had 1 correction to make.
> 
> Back to original question, I wouldn't pay a cent. Start with legal advise as you may have been scammed. You hired a pro and they should have better knowledge about this. I'd be really pissed.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

If you run lines in the attic, you will need to address the pipe freezing issues.
Ron


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## KarlJay (Dec 9, 2009)

WOW, from Dark to Light that easy! Cool! I think the key is that you went with a company that cares about their name. Ok, I'm hungry and I'm grabbing the keys....


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Ugh said:


> I will re-route both cold/hot water lines through the attic for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> KarlJay came up with the best solution and spoke to their manager, *they waived the charge of 5,100.00*. It seems Roto Rooter can not charge for misdiagnosed work. :thumbup:


Hot Diggity! This is great news!


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

Yeah, the plumbers will insulate the 3/4 copper pipe. I was thinking of going with Pex piping but not sure if it can withhold the cold?




Ron6519 said:


> If you run lines in the attic, you will need to address the pipe freezing issues.
> Ron


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Ugh said:


> Yeah, the plumbers will insulate the 3/4 copper pipe. I was thinking of going with Pex piping but not sure if it can withhold the cold?


Pex will stand the cold better then copper. In either case, don't just rely on the 1/2" thick pipe tubes for insulation. Elevating the supply pipes to the attic will insure the most damage if they fail. 
Ron


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## LateralConcepts (Jun 6, 2010)

In my experience leak detection is rarely accurate. I've had multiple people and contractors ask if I'll ever provide leak detection. My answer is always no. I'll leave that to the experts, but even the "experts" locates are off a majority of the time. Conditions have to be ideal. Leak detection equipment is like a stethoscope (amplifies sound). Every little thing can be heard. Traffic in the street, burrowing mice, seismic activity, you name it. A concrete slab will carry sound quite some distance.

Something else you may want to consider is thermal imaging. A restoration company, home inspector, or leak detection company would most likely have a thermal imaging camera. That may prove to be more accurate. I do business with a restoration company here in town which gave me a demo of their "high end" thermal imaging. Pretty amazing. You can place your hand on a concrete floor or on the wall for about 2 seconds and the camera will pick up the difference in temperature. Actually; not only the difference in temperature, but will show a detailed outline of your hand.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I've heard nothing good about that company and now I've heard one more bad thing. At least they backed off the bill part. It sounds like you will need that money to repair the destruction they caused while not finding the problem. At least Mike Holmes would have put it all back together for you.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

Will the fitting from a copper pipe to the PEX piping present a problem?

Also, I forgot to mention the grade thickness and grade of the copper: 3/4L.




Ron6519 said:


> Pex will stand the cold better then copper. In either case, don't just rely on the 1/2" thick pipe tubes for insulation. Elevating the supply pipes to the attic will insure the most damage if they fail.
> Ron


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

LC, 
I should have realized that when the "expert" asked all the others to leave the house because he was picking up everything. I'm sure the sound traveled through the slab, he should have been more thorough. 

Thermal imaging seems to be more accurate to find the area of the leak. But digging up the slab to fix a leak then the following week to find another leak will be the death of me.

That's a great idea!!:thumbup:



LateralConcepts said:


> In my experience leak detection is rarely accurate. I've had multiple people and contractors ask if I'll ever provide leak detection. My answer is always no. I'll leave that to the experts, but even the "experts" locates are off a majority of the time. Conditions have to be ideal. Leak detection equipment is like a stethoscope (amplifies sound). Every little thing can be heard. Traffic in the street, burrowing mice, seismic activity, you name it. A concrete slab will carry sound quite some distance.
> 
> Something else you may want to consider is thermal imaging. A restoration company, home inspector, or leak detection company would most likely have a thermal imaging camera. That may prove to be more accurate. I do business with a restoration company here in town which gave me a demo of their "high end" thermal imaging. Pretty amazing. You can place your hand on a concrete floor or on the wall for about 2 seconds and the camera will pick up the difference in temperature. Actually; not only the difference in temperature, but will show a detailed outline of your hand.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Ugh said:


> Will the fitting from a copper pipe to the PEX piping present a problem?
> 
> Also, I forgot to mention the grade thickness and grade of the copper: 3/4L.


Around here, all water supply pipes in the house are "L" . The "M" type is used for heating.
If the pipe freezes, the pipe will split before the fitting. 
Ron


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

Think I'll be better off with copper than PEX.



Ron6519 said:


> Around here, all water supply pipes in the house are "L" . The "M" type is used for heating.
> If the pipe freezes, the pipe will split before the fitting.
> Ron


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

I called around for an Infrared inspection company and found someone in the area....charge is 250.00. Funny how plumbers do not go this route for leak detection...guess it's the cost of the unit. 



LateralConcepts said:


> In my experience leak detection is rarely accurate. I've had multiple people and contractors ask if I'll ever provide leak detection. My answer is always no. I'll leave that to the experts, but even the "experts" locates are off a majority of the time. Conditions have to be ideal. Leak detection equipment is like a stethoscope (amplifies sound). Every little thing can be heard. Traffic in the street, burrowing mice, seismic activity, you name it. A concrete slab will carry sound quite some distance.
> 
> Something else you may want to consider is thermal imaging. A restoration company, home inspector, or leak detection company would most likely have a thermal imaging camera. That may prove to be more accurate. I do business with a restoration company here in town which gave me a demo of their "high end" thermal imaging. Pretty amazing. You can place your hand on a concrete floor or on the wall for about 2 seconds and the camera will pick up the difference in temperature. Actually; not only the difference in temperature, but will show a detailed outline of your hand.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Ugh said:


> Think I'll be better off with copper than PEX.


It's your house, do what you want.
Ron


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## LateralConcepts (Jun 6, 2010)

> I called around for an Infrared inspection company and found someone in the area....charge is 250.00. Funny how plumbers do not go this route for leak detection...guess it's the cost of the unit.


Yeah they can be expensive. $20K or more. Did you happen to ask if they had any guarantee? I know a company here in town that has a $30K camera, they charge about the same, but if they can't pinpoint the problem, you don't pay.


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

The infrared inspection will come with a guarantee..."If we can't find , do don't pay for it". He stated he was a certified in ultra sound or something like that. I just asked him how much his unit cost and he stated 20k so I'm guessing it must work...hahaha.

Now, if you're wondering why I'm doing the inspection after I decided to run the pipes through the attic is because I'm weighing both options. The Attic job will cost 3700 - 4000 with 120ft of copper compared to 1000-1200 to cut through the slab. The cons for the attic job is water damage to ceiling and walls if the pipes freezes and burst. The con for cutting through the slab and not replacing the 26year old pipes may result in future leaks and more holes in the slab. UGH!!!! I should start a poll whether if I should do an Attic job or the slab job.




LateralConcepts said:


> Yeah they can be expensive. $20K or more. Did you happen to ask if they had any guarantee? I know a company here in town that has a $30K camera, they charge about the same, but if they can't pinpoint the problem, you don't pay.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

If you run pipes in the attic, you cannot simply insulate the pipes. That's not good enough and the pipes will eventually freeze. You need to expand the building envelope to include the pipes. To do that you need to remove the insulation below the pipes and build a box around the pipes and insulate the box. In effect, the box is now in conditioned space.
Are the current pipes copper directly in contact with concrete?


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## Ugh (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for the info...I started to wonder about that as well. I was worried about it freezing over the winter as the cold temp will eventually get to the piping. 

The copper piping are in fact in contact the piping and realized that may have been the cause of the leak. 



Clutchcargo said:


> If you run pipes in the attic, you cannot simply insulate the pipes. That's not good enough and the pipes will eventually freeze. You need to expand the building envelope to include the pipes. To do that you need to remove the insulation below the pipes and build a box around the pipes and insulate the box. In effect, the box is now in conditioned space.
> Are the current pipes copper directly in contact with concrete?


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## LateralConcepts (Jun 6, 2010)

> wondering why I'm doing the inspection after I decided to run the pipes through the attic is because I'm weighing both options. The Attic job will cost 3700 - 4000 with 120ft of copper compared to 1000-1200 to cut through the slab. The cons for the attic job is water damage to ceiling and walls if the pipes freezes and burst. The con for cutting through the slab and not replacing the 26year old pipes may result in future leaks and more holes in the slab. UGH!!!! I should start a poll whether if I should do an Attic job or the slab job.


Well keep us posted on the results of the infrared camera. My vote is on fixing the leak under the slab. Because the re-plumb is a major project (PEX would be my choice in that event). If you can pinpoint the location under the slab and make the repair, it might be another 26 years before you have another leak. Maybe sooner, maybe never. If you decide to just buy another house, don't buy slab on grade. :thumbsup:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Do a little research on PEX--That is the only water pipe than can expand enough not to burst when frozen. PEX would be my choice in any area that has a risk of freezing.--Mike--


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I've had many customers with slab houses that have abandoned their in slab piping. If you have direct contact copper/concrete pipes, I would also abandon them, but I would *not* redirect them to the attic. There are alternative routes you can take using soffits you have or soffits you build.
Ron


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