# Did I get a bad roof?



## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Engineer is my trade so pardon my ignorance about roofing...

November we got a new roof installed by a very reputable firm. They came recommended, did multiple homes on my street and have very good reviews.

I noticed after installation some 'popup' on the shingles in various places. The contractor and his inspector told me it was normal in cold weather installations and they would settle once it warms up. To be fair, it's been quite cold and wet since then! (Michigan)

I'm pretty paranoid. The roof to me looks bad. He's already been paid but has an installation warranty. I talked to the owner who sent out 2 different repair experts that work for him and they assured me it was cosmetic and due to cold weather. The owner seems on top of it but said we really need to wait for a few 70' sunny days.

Here's a picture, what do you pros think?


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm not a pro, they will be along shortly.

Jmho, I agree with the roofer, give it a chance. Installed in November, so you probably never saw any really warm days yet to properly seal. 

They have an installation warranty, and you said they are reputable company. I would relax. If it's still like that after some warm days or is leaking, definitely call them back and complain.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

So you don't trust the reputable Co. you hired, or the inspector, but you will trust strangers on the net?

Just kidding, I think they are right. Personally I would not do a roof that late in the season. But many full time roofers run all year pending weather.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Welcome to the forums itguy2017. 

It just looks like a cold weather install to me. A few warm days should lay it all down flat. 

However you could loose some shingles with good wind storm before the heat seals them but if the roofers warranty will cover that if it should happen then you should be good to go imo.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Be sure they left a square of matching shingles for now and years to come. I just finished a cold weather install on my house and watched my neighbor across the street get his done. We were early enough that we did get a few warm days (thank you mother nature) and both mine and across the street look fine now.

The important part was selecting a reputable contractor and you did that. Now relax and wait for spring.

Bud


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## roofclimber (Jan 28, 2017)

Based on the picture, there's nothing wrong with the job and it will lay down as soon as you get a few days over 50 degrees or so. One caveat- watch the weather forecasts and if you have a storm or high winds in the forecast, call them immediately. One good wind storm could buckle or tear off shingles that are not yet stuck down and while you may have a workmanship warranty, it might not cover water damage to to your interior if water does get through. If there's a storm coming, it might be to in your roofers best interest to come out and hand seal the roof, especially if the job was a weather insurance claim because they may be able to supplement the insurance company for the cost.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Any closer pics of that valley?

As far as the wavy stuff, as mentioned by all above...the warm weather will cause them to lay down.


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## ryansdiydad (Aug 16, 2015)

do you have a ridge vent or is it some other form of ventilation?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Be sure they left a square of matching shingles for now and years to come......


I assume you mean the home owner would buy that square? When I was active we left any partial bundle for the homeowner but if the bundle was unopened we took it away for returns unless the homeowner wanted to pay for it/them. 
On occasion I had homeowners try to lay claim to unopened bundles but their contract said they got a new roof but not spare parts.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

LOL, come on, a $10,000 new roof and you aren't going to leave them $100 worth of shingles. Of course 5 years later they would wonder why those shingles are kicking around. But 15 years later when they need to patch the roof they will be kicking themselves for throwing them out. With modern shingles lasting far longer than color and styles, a couple of bundles is still a good idea. True, being sealed the color still may not match. 

Bud


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> LOL, come on, a $10,000 new roof and you aren't going to leave them $100 worth of shingles.


I know company's who do 4-5 roofs a week 50 weeks a year. That's $20,000 to $25,000 worth of shingles. A boss can give some nice bonuses to employees for that kind of cash. I don't know anybody who would leave a square, in nearly 30 years of roofing no homeowner ever asked us to take that old square in the garage away and I had plenty of homeowners I had to encourage to keep a half a bundle. So no we wouldn't leave $100 worth of shingles.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

It's still pretty cold, but we have had a few 50' Sunny days, the roof has NOT improved. Also I noticed 'waves' in the back that were not there with the old roof. Last week we had some wind, and one of the shingles near the ridge seems to have popped up even more.

I'm getting pretty worked up about this. To me this is shoddy work and unacceptable. The shingle manufacturer came out and said he thinks it is something with the underlayment or install, he wasn't happy with how it looks.

See the new photos, and please - your thoughts;


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

IMO, it sure doesn't look like it is getting better.
From a warranty perspective the clock is running and the longer he can hold you off the better chance he has (in his thinking) that you will go away. If you haven't, start your paper trail. Keep track of all communications, preferably in writing, one reason I love email. Not sure what state you are in but consumer protection varies greatly, so determine what you have. 

What did he give you in terms of a warranty, his labor as well as the mfg stated warranty? Did you have a written contract?

It isn't that you need to call the lawyer right now, but being prepared is always good. This isn't a $200 lawn mower.

Bud


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Did they use tar paper or synthetic felt? 

Did it rain at any point when the roof was stripped?


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

No clue on underlayment, I'd have to look. It was dry when they roofed, no rain until a day or two after the roof was applied.

I have 1 year warranty (written, signed) for installation and a 20 year no questions asked warranty on the shingles from the manufacturer. All in writing. Also, just in case I consulted my attorney a few weeks back and he told me to implement a paper trail.

I have the owner of the roofing firm telling me that if it doesn't lay down or have issues he will tear it off and start over. That's in writing.

In addition, I put 50% of the roof job cost on my Discover Card, which automatically adds 1 year to any warranty and provides additional protection to me in terms of right of refusal/chargeback should it ever come to that.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

I just spoke with the owner of the roofing firm. He said he will rip it and replace it in the spring. To be honest I think he knows his crew screwed up but doesn't want to tell me that directly. Only 'we will tear it all off and start again on it.'..

So my next question, if they do this I should have new underlayment done right? I have read mixed things, some say never use the same underlayment due to nail holes that will be in it.

Can shingles be reused? I think I want knew ones and the whole thing done fresh. I think it would be a mess trying to reuse them especially when they weren't sealed for an entire winter and the adhesive probably has dust/debris on them.

Thoughts?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

ok to reuse the ply, as long as it is sound. The shingles are headed for the scrap bin.
Nearly impossible to strip without destroying them


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

How about the felt or whatever they used? Trash bin?


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

I just spoke with the owner again.

Full tear off in 3-4 weeks when weather fully breaks, right to the wood. Redo it. He will be out watching the crew and the Shingle Manufacturer will be onsite checking. This time I will take the day off work and watch it myself so they know I am on top of it. Last time I worked that day and missed the show.

This roofer runs 11 crews, it's not a small operation. He said he will double his 1 year installation warranty once the new roof is up, and put it in writing.


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## ZTMAN (Feb 19, 2015)

Sounds like the fellow is stepping up.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I have always had the opinion that you can't really judge the character and performance of a company until they have a problem. If all this goes as planned he will have earned a top rating and his payback will be years of great recommendations.

Thumbs up to both of you.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

I agree Bud.. 

Also, he said there is no sense talking about the roof. It's not leaking. It does look like crap. He will have his best crew tear it off and start from scratch when it warms up. End of story. (his words)


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Its beginning to look to me like an organic felt underlayment issue. Did any felt get installed then sit overnight exposed? Even a dew can cause organic felt to buckle/warp. Even worse if they used #30 instead of #15.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

craig11152 said:


> Its beginning to look to me like an organic felt underlayment issue. Did any felt get installed then sit overnight exposed? Even a dew can cause organic felt to buckle/warp. Even worse if they used #30 instead of #15.


Good point. What about Hot/Cold, then Frost? We had some 'odd' weather around that time. It was 30'F when the roof was done the next day it jumped to 71'F, then the day after dropped down to 36'F with freezing rain, then WAY down to around 15'F. Maybe the rapid swings caused this?

This replaced a very well done roof that was 27 years old and in great condition for that age but the underlayment was failing and when we would get a wind+rain store it would push some of the rain back up under the shingles in one area and cause a minor leak. Once the leak was discovered the new roof went up two weeks later with no rain between that time.

It's kind of silly.. My old roof looked far better than this roof..


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Just an update guys..

The roofing company sent out a new crew to replace the roof today. This time an english speaking crew with a project manager to supervise the job. I had to work but stopped by on my lunch to talk to the project engineer.

He told me the moment he pulled up he new the previous crew made a good number of mistakes on the job. Also that there may have been issues with the shingles - old warehouse stock, leftovers, bottom of the pallet end of season junk. Something. The roofing company runs 11 crews but he fired the entire crew for doing such a sloppy job according to the project manager. He also said they found areas missing the underlayment where they 'forgot' to put it down and then tried to 'slide some in'... Really? This project manager told me the owner instructed them to do it right, no questions, and to 'throw away' any new shingles that they think may not be perfect.

After the full tear off the project manager wasn't satisfied with the condition of the roof or the ventilation. So he removed approximately 25% of the deck and installed baffles in the attic for air flow and replaced it with new decking. He then installed a ridge vent in the top and front gable. There are still a few 'very minor' pop ups from the shingles sitting over the ridge while the job was being done. Nothing that looks out of place or bad and nothing that shouldn't properly lay down with a little more heat. Project manager showed me other updates.. Better deck material (Deck Armor?) and a better underlayment. According to him some of the most expensive synthetic underlayment out there.

Keeping in mind I am not paying a dime for any of this. It's their screwup. The roof looks great now. Finally.

One final annoyance, they split some of my vinyl siding then tried to fasten it down with finishing nails. By the time I got home it was popped up. About a 7 inch split in the siding near the front gable. I emailed the owner asking for him to send someone out to replace that piece of siding. Thankfully I have half a box of matching siding in the garage they can cut, slide in and caulk around the edges of the trim.. If the guy had told me when it happened I would have got him the siding piece for a quick replacement!

Also, they left 4 boxes of shingles. I took one box and put it in my garage. Every pro I have talked to says I should have some 'spares' in case repairs need to be made or something. So that's a bonus.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Nice ending, thanks for the update.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Nice ending, thanks for the update.
> 
> Bud


The owner knows about the cracked siding and said he already has a siding crew on deck to replace it..

Amazing.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Not to drag this thread out, but, would you recommend this company if someone needed a roof done? He may be doing this at his expense but he knows the value of a satisfied customer.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Not to drag this thread out, but, would you recommend this company if someone needed a roof done? He may be doing this at his expense but he knows the value of a satisfied customer.
> 
> Bud


Well.. Tough call. We certainly went through a lot of headaches with them. But in the end isn't what matters is how a company backs up what they do?

I'm mixed... I'd probably tell people to use a different firm to avoid headaches. But what if a different firm makes mistakes and doesn't back up their work? At least with this company if they make a mistake they WILL fix it.

I'd probably just solve this dilemma by sharing our story and let other people decide..


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Also, VERY FEW contractors get my recommendation. Over the years we've had almost 2 dozen contractors do work on our home. Maybe 5-6 of them would get my recommendation.

Universally I find contractors to be sloppy and I need to act as a project manager for every job. They need to be babysat, their work checked and you have to watch out for skimping on things everywhere. Even the company I hired to re-brick my chimney, I caught them dumping the old bricks behind my garage at the back of the property!

Sadly, maybe 25% of the contractors we've ever hired I am totally happy with.. Not good odds. So I am very careful about warranties, guarantees and protecting myself from them.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Sounds like youhave no worries. 50 degrees and sunny isn't going to lay them down. Sounds as if you are expecting the guy to get up there with an industrial strength hairdryer and take care of what will eventually happen when it gets hot and sunny. Ron


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

I consider this thread resolved.

Thank you to everyone that commented.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

itguy2017 said:


> I consider this thread resolved.
> 
> Thank you to everyone that commented.


I feel your pain. I've been chasing my roofer for almost 3 years. The problem with roofs is you can't see what they did or didn't do unless you can climb up there yourself and then some stuff may not be visible. Some of my problems were visible from inside the attic and some others were pointed out by a painting contractor who was painting at the ridges.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

JIMMIEM said:


> I feel your pain. I've been chasing my roofer for almost 3 years. The problem with roofs is you can't see what they did or didn't do unless you can climb up there yourself and then some stuff may not be visible. Some of my problems were visible from inside the attic and some others were pointed out by a painting contractor who was painting at the ridges.


This is what concerns me.. Most of roofing is invisible to normal observation. In our case it was very visible and only grew worse with time. Yesterday - after our new roof went up my wife found what may be 'dampness' that had leeched through to the top bedroom from the flawed roof. Imagine if we had not had visual issues and we find out in 2-3 years our roof failed?

I put the roof job on a credit card then paid the card off immediately. The reason is - my credit card carrier offers a free 1 year warranty extension on all products and services. Also in the event of 'issues' with the roof I could file a chargeback and regain my funds immediately leaving HIM to litigate to get funds and explain to the judge why his job failed. With contractors you must always protect yourself.

Let's hope my NEW roof holds out...


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

Even when you hire a reputable company the workerbees may do a lousy job. Mike Holmes said 70% of contractors are substandard.....I'm believing it. Good you have some financial leverage with the credit card but wouldn't you sleep better knowing the roof was done properly?


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

JIMMIEM said:


> Even when you hire a reputable company the workerbees may do a lousy job. Mike Holmes said 70% of contractors are substandard.....I'm believing it. Good you have some financial leverage with the credit card but wouldn't you sleep better knowing the roof was done properly?


Absolutely..

We've hired 20+ contractors over the years. I'd only recommend maybe 4-6 of them.. Wait, that's 70% of them I wouldn't recommend or hire again! So Mike is right in my opinion.

I do not play games with contractors and a credit card is one of the many protections I use. I also never pay a dime up front and if push comes to shove I will put the final payment in an escrow account that can be released when the contractor fullfills their obligations. (assuming I didn't use a credit card)

A red flag for me is a contractor that requires money down to start a job. This roofing guy didn't want a dime until it was finished. One fence contractor wanted 50% down.. I'm sorry but if a contractor can't afford $500 in materials then they probably aren't running their business right.

Another good thing, I carry a LOT of weight on review sites. For example my account on Yelp under an assumed name is a 'Yelp Elite' reviewer. Which means my reviews are almost always pushed to the top. I am in the top 200 of Amazon reviewers. Etc. Not to brag, but bad contractors stand to lose a lot if they hose me and I make everything known up front. I have had some contractors leave during the estimate and never call me back. I have had some that appear to be 'scared' to even work for me. But the reality is - if they do a great job I can probably bring them dozens, if not a hundred referrals!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Glad that is over. IMO, replace the siding piece with one from the house somewhere else. UV/rain/time changes it a lot, add the new piece to one you removed to high visibility area, unless not important in this regard. 

Gary


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Here we go again...

It's been awhile since the roof was re-done a SECOND time. It seemed fine after the last complete tear off (round 2) at first and now the issues have returned. Keeping in mind they replaced most of the wood, added ridge vents, baffles in the attic, etc.

It looked 'Ok' after it was done, but has been progressively getting worse again. Even with the arrival of warmer weather.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

You mentioned ventilation issues, what was there before the ridge vent and were the soffits blocked? Was the wood (sheathing) replaced because it was full of holes or was it suffering from moisture problems?

You might want to take some temp/humidity reading in that attic to see if it is more humid than outside.

Bud


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

From here it just looks like a new roof that has not laid down yet. How long has it been down? Day time temps?

It is not uncommon to see a few shingles rolled up or down. What is uncommon is to see 20+ feet of them on the same row. For that, I would check in the attic and be sure a couple sheets haven't popped up. And also that your sheets are gapped about 1/8".


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> From here it just looks like a new roof that has not laid down yet. How long has it been down? Day time temps?
> 
> It is not uncommon to see a few shingles rolled up or down. What is uncommon is to see 20+ feet of them on the same row. For that, I would check in the attic and be sure a couple sheets haven't popped up. And also that your sheets are gapped about 1/8".


The first roof went down in November, which prompted this thread. The roofer did a full tear off, removed a good portion of the roof wood and placed it after adding attic baffles. Then he cut in ridge vents. That was done February 22nd during a 55'F period of time.

We've had multiple days in the 60-70'F range with sunshine since the new roof went down. it's actually gotten worse during that time frame.

Here are additional pictures of the back including what looks like underlayment bubbling? (non-expert speculation)


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> You mentioned ventilation issues, what was there before the ridge vent and were the soffits blocked? Was the wood (sheathing) replaced because it was full of holes or was it suffering from moisture problems?
> 
> You might want to take some temp/humidity reading in that attic to see if it is more humid than outside.
> 
> Bud


Cans and peak vent on the sides before.

I took some readings just now - but will see if the attic varies over the next hours.

Outside - 56'F, 36% Humidity
Attic - 60'F, 40% Humidity

That seems pretty reasonable to me. If there were humidity issues in the attic I would expect it to vary way more than 4% from the outside don't you?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The reason we ask for temp along with RH readings is to calculate the dew point. Your 56° and 36% RH has a dew point of 29.4°. When that is warmed up to 60° you would expect 31% RH if no moisture has been added. Thus, the house is adding moisture to your attic. However, those numbers do not look like they should be an issue with your shingles. Air leakage from house to attic is common and best kept to a minimum but that is a tomorrow project.

Bud


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Keep us posted. I wonder how it will look after a couple of solidly warm days. 

What kind of ridge vent did they use here?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

This makes me wonder what part of the world these shingles are coming from where there is enough cardboard to grind and mix with old tires to make shingles. .


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

The first pic in post 41 is concerning to me. That ripple was not installed that way, I don't believe it is a sheathing edge pop. My best guess is wet felt paper that has expanded.




Why pan vents and ridge vent? Are there soffit vents on this house?


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> The reason we ask for temp along with RH readings is to calculate the dew point. Your 56° and 36% RH has a dew point of 29.4°. When that is warmed up to 60° you would expect 31% RH if no moisture has been added. Thus, the house is adding moisture to your attic. However, those numbers do not look like they should be an issue with your shingles. Air leakage from house to attic is common and best kept to a minimum but that is a tomorrow project.
> 
> Bud


I checked after the gauge has been up there for a couple of hours.

41%/55'.. From what my Googlefu tells me, that's pretty decent.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Here's my ventilation system;

This home has TINY overhangs which are what most bungalows are built with. No soffit vents in most homes around here. However 12 years ago when I had my siding done the contractor drilled a huge number of 2 inch holes into the soffit and put in a soffit grill all around the home. He said he found this helps homes built like this. That seemed to work great, we had no issues at all.

Then about 3 years ago I had cellulose blown in, he 'tried' to avoid covering those 2 inch soffit holes along the home but most likely they got blocked to some degree. Ventilation on the original roof was a gable vent on each side, those 2 inch soffit holes, 4 cans on the back and 2 cans on the front. When the roof was torn off in November they replaced cans in the same spots and left the gable alone. They added baffles to the attic increasing the air flow a huge amount, well over 2 inch gap between the tightest part.

When the SECOND new roof was done, they removed the front cans, cut in a ridge on the small peak at the porch. Removed all of the cans in the back, leaving 2, cutting a ridge in the top AND leaving the gables. Given my attic is 'fairly' close to outside temp and humidity it SEEMS like my ventilation is fine.. Speaking from a layman perspective.

It sure seems like ventilation is fine now, doesn't it? Then why does it look like the underlayment is buckling up in some spots? It was dry when they put it on.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Another update.

The roofing company owner sent out a 30 year roofing veteran to inspect this one. He put a ladder up and spent about a half hour walking around. He also inspected the ventilation and attic.

His conclusion was - this SECOND roof has an 'amalgam' of issues. Ventilation seems excellent overall according to him so that wasn't an issue. The issues he noted are;

1) Underlayment wasn't secured properly in some areas causing shifting, rising/lowering depending on weather conditions, etc.

2) Shingles are defective/damaged. Possibly over-stacked during the winter by the distributor causing them to get permanently deformed. Or even old stock from the distributor.

3) Possible bad manufacturing run of the shingles, but he cannot confirm. Speculation since this is our second roof with the same color and probably from the same run.

4) Incorrect sheeting used on the roof that is a different thickness from the normal roof causing 'lines' and 'ridges' where the shingles change height from the sheeting changes.

He said the shingles will never lay flat and will likely get worse. (which we've seen) Regardless of any heating up over a hot summer they won't fix themselves.. He said the ridges will also never correct themselves. He said the underlayment will never settle properly because it wasn't secured properly in some areas. He said the sheeting has to be replaced on the roof.

His conclusion was - it has to be torn off.

This has been a nightmare experience... Who the hell has 3 new roofs done to get something done right???


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

itguy2017 said:


> This has been a nightmare experience... Who the hell has 3 new roofs done to get something done right???



That's a first for me. Nice to hear of a company that cares more about their reputation than the bottom line.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> That's a first for me. Nice to hear of a company that cares more about their reputation than the bottom line.


Luckily it's a small roof. Our home is actually pretty small, about 1,700 sf. But it is three finished floors so the roof is pretty compact!

What brand of shingles is best? I'm not feeling Tamco after all of this and have seen some lawsuits over bad manufacturing runs with them. Also the Tamco reps seem to be strange.

Our siding is Certainteed and was the best rated at the time. That's been on for 12 years and hasn't faded AT ALL. I can pull some siding out of a box in my garage and put it up against the stuff on the home and not see any differences. I was thinking of trying to push this roofing firm to go with a premium shingle.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

itguy2017 said:


> I was thinking of trying to push this roofing firm to go with a premium shingle.


Probably a good idea, even it meant paying the cost difference. I have never used Certainteed shingles, but some of the reviews that I read were less than impressive. Owns Corning, and GAF always seem to be in the mix when I hear roofers speak of who has the best.
I have also used IKO without issues and currently (5 years) have been using Atlas Pinnacle with the 3M Scotchgaurd protection, also without any issues.

This might help http://www.homeadvisor.com/r/best-asphalt-roof-shingles/


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

> 1) Underlayment wasn't secured properly in some areas causing shifting, rising/lowering depending on weather conditions, etc.


That doesn't make any sense at all.


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## dgghostkilla (Apr 15, 2017)

dont look right thats for sure


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

The owner called me this morning. He's going to have another tear off done. He's ditching Tamko for the next one and will go with one of the high grade lines, probably something like Certainteed Timberline. 

He will call me after the holiday weekend to setup a meeting where we lay out a plan to do it again...

So this will be my third new roof in the last 10 months.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

itguy2017 said:


> He's ditching Tamko for the next one and will go with one of the high grade lines, probably something like Certainteed Timberline.


Not that matters much, but Timberline is a GAF product. The Certainteed equal I believe is Landmark

https://fowlerhomesrestoration.com/gaf-timberline-shingles-vs-certainteed-landmark-shingles/


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> Not that matters much, but Timberline is a GAF product. The Certainteed equal I believe is Landmark
> 
> https://fowlerhomesrestoration.com/gaf-timberline-shingles-vs-certainteed-landmark-shingles/


Ahh yes, he mentioned both and I got them mixed up.

Has anyone ever heard of 3 tear offs in a row? :vs_worry:


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

What the heck is going on with my ridge vent?

They used a rolled out ridge vent. Today is HOT up there (86' in direct sun) and the ridge vent is buckling up and going insane..

What the heck would cause this???


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Windows on Wash said:


> Keep us posted. I wonder how it will look after a couple of solidly warm days.
> 
> What kind of ridge vent did they use here?





itguy2017 said:


> What the heck is going on with my ridge vent?
> 
> They used a rolled out ridge vent. Today is HOT up there (86' in direct sun) and the ridge vent is buckling up and going insane..
> 
> What the heck would cause this???


See my question from before. 

If this is Cobra vent (i.e. roll out), I would be suspect. That stuff is complete garbage. 

I think @joecaption said it best when he said that stuff looks like a snake that just ate a rat.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Your roof is possessed. Or a culmination of poor workmanship combined with possibly suspect quality mat'ls.
I can not make out the style of ridge, (too blurry), but generally the plastic rolled ridge vent gets nailed on each side of the ridge about every 5 to 6 linear inches with a 2 1/2" roofing nail. In order to get rolls like that with a little sun, I suspect someone was skimping on the nails.
Are there asphalt shingle caps over the ridge vent? Can not tell by the pic.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

The picture was taken with a really good camera, however it was heavily zoomed because I was way out in the yard. I don't climb ladders. lain:

Yes it is Cobra Roll and I agree, it's junk. But it's quite obvious someone skimped on the nails and this is the result. I told him on the next tear off I don't want that Cobra crap on my roof and Tamko trash would never see my roof again.

Any recommendations on Ridge Vent? 

The owner scheduled a meeting with us next week and frankly, I want high end stuff on this roof this time.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Any of the rigid, sectional ridge vents are good. 

OC, GAF, and Certaineed all make good ones.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

I might pull out my Phantom 3 Drone and film them roofing. Also I may post some video of the current junked up roof here for inspection.

LOL


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## Paultergeist (Oct 13, 2014)

This has been an interesting thread. I am sorry that the OP has had to go through so much. My suspicion -- based on very limited knowledge -- is that the shingles themselves were and are crap. Round one were crappy shingles -- maybe sitting in a storage container for years getting warped or brittle...or subject to a manufacturing issue -- and the issue was obvious early-on: these shingles did not "lay down," instead some of them curled/warped a bit. Round two -- the manufacturer or supplier replaced the shingles with more of the same brand......maybe they dug a little deeper into the storage pile, but....still bad shingles.

I would think -- for this third round -- that a quality, recognized brand of shingle should be used. Just my two cents.


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## Paultergeist (Oct 13, 2014)

Wow, that didn't take long.....I had never heard of these "Tamko" shingles prior to your thread......so I "Googled" them......and here is a class-action lawsuit alleging that the shingles are crap and subject to all sorts of problems:

https://www.classaction.org/tamko-roofing-shingles-lawsuit


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## Paultergeist (Oct 13, 2014)

Just one more data-point for you:

http://www.roofery.com/shingles/reviews/tamko/

User ranked, 80 out of 108 reviewers are "very dissatisfied" with the Tamko shingles. I think the root cause of your problem is now obvious.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Here's the thing - every shingle brand has terrible reviews, class action lawsuits, etc. If you see here on your link - Certainteed, widely regarded as having some of the best shingles in the business scores virtually the same.

http://www.roofery.com/shingles/reviews/certainteed/

GAF considered the go-to for roofers from what I read, doesn't score much better.
http://www.roofery.com/shingles/reviews/gaf/

But I agree, as a general rule - I don't want Tamko on my roof ever again and will not accept them for round-three tear off.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

The owner of the roofing company spent about an hour our talking to us and looking everything over. The shingle firm sent an engineer out (Tamko).

We talked about a variety of issues and agreed to make some changes and see how things improve. If they don't improve 100% they will do a tear off, Tamko will refund the cost of the shingles and we will go with another brand. I didn't realize, but they installed Drip Edge Vents but the inspection showed his guys didn't add baffles so the cellulose is blocking the drip edge. Smoke test was done by Tamko and revealed no effective intake/exhaust flow whatsoever.

Problems found;

1) Drip Edge Vent blocked by cellulose rendering the intake useless.
2) Inadequate ventilation at the front of the home (intake).
3) Expansion/Contracting of new boards on roof.

He put forward the following solutions to be put into place before he will do another tear off.

1) Baffles will be installed for the drip edge vent to keep the cellulose out.
2) Soffit Vents will be cut into the front porch. Tamko realized my porch enters the attic and would be a place to have tremendous ventilation installed with almost no effort.
3) ONE gable vent will be blocked off to not short circuit the system. Tamko strongly recommended this.
4) Cheap Cobra Roll Ridge will be replaced with Cobra 3 or ShingleVent II and extended to edges of roof.
5) Roof Vents(Cans) will be blocked off.

After all of this is done he will get the engineer out to run another smoke test. Then see if more hot days will lay things down better and stabilize. IF none of this works, he will do a full tear off. Replace the shingles with whatever brand I choose including Timberline or Landmark Shingles. He will have his contracted engineer onsite during the process.

Considering I am not paying him anything else, and he has not asked for more funds this is a LOT of work I am not paying for. Just fishing your way through an attic with 15" of cellulose is a hideous thing but he is paying someone to do this..


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

When they did the smoke test it requires a decent temperature difference between attic and outside for air to move naturally. Even with a 30° delta T that flow will be slow. But if vents are blocked they must be opened.

"3) ONE gable vent will be blocked off to not short circuit the system. Tamko strongly recommended this."
That is an illustration that they do not know how attics achieve their air flow. Fortunately it won't change anything in your case.

Then "5) Roof Vents(Cans) will be blocked off." Probably the same reasoning, the stupid "short circuit theory".

Some day you will no longer face this stupid reasoning and the short circuit theory will be dead. Unfortunately it may take a few generations for contractors and roofing mfgs to all get the message.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

That's my fault Bud. I pressured him on the can vents. He said they are fine but we can 'try' to cover them.. He seemed to have the same opinion as you.

I just got up on my roof to 'look around' and was not impressed. For one, they did install a drop edge vent, but it appears to be 100% blocked by cellulose so they didn't bother to do that right.

* - Also, I found multiple spots with nails on the TOP of the shingles. I assume that is bad, right?

- How much degranulation should I expect? I found 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the gutter. That seems excessive but what do I know?

- Some of the lumped up shingles are already sealed down by the adhesive strip. I highly doubt they will EVER lay flat. If I manually pushed it down it just started to pop up the shingle next to it.*

See attached pictures.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

The roofers repair guy is out today going through all of the ventilation. He added front soffit ventilation (extensive) to pull from the front up to the ridge. He's working (slowly) on pulling the cellulose back from the rear drip edge vent.

He's going to widen the ridge cut, it looks like the previous crew skimped and did under an inch on each side so he's going to widen those up a bit and clear away any insulation impeding the flow.

A few other things will be done. After this it's incredibly likely we will have a new roof installed. This time I am going with premium shingles.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Repair guy was out, he cut some soffits into the front really improving air flow in the front.

He was unable to clear enough cellulose in the back to make much of a different. He found cellulose blown in above the knee wall packing the ridge pretty tight impeding air flow. He was unable to remove enough to make a difference. 

The owner of the company scheduled another meeting with me on this weekend to go over options. I'm getting the impression he is going to recommend the roof re-done, but this time more of the sheeting removed and the cellulose packed into the ridge cleared out. We'll see, but it's obvious that much of the improvements needed for ventilation can't happen with the roof on.


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

I've noticed a house on the next block that's got a roof that must be 40 years old. It's long overdue for a tear off and a new roof, and your new roof reminds me of theirs.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Dave Sal said:


> I've noticed a house on the next block that's got a roof that must be 40 years old. It's long overdue for a tear off and a new roof, and your new roof reminds me of theirs.


Sad but true.. I looked at photos my 27 year old 3-tab roof this replaced. The 27 year old one looked better. Honestly.

Saturday is another meeting with the owner. His repair guy suggested multiple repair strategies with the existing roof left installed. The owner said he is not interested in taking up more of our time with piece meal adjustments and fixes.

What that means, I am assuming, is he is going to simply tear the entire thing off again and fix the ventilation, and reroof it.. He seems to be suggesting dropping Tamko on the next tear off..

We will find out Saturday morning.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

"The owner said he is not interested in taking up more of our time with piece meal adjustments and fixes." I was in a different line of work but same dilemma, and did exactly what it sounds like he intends, do everything and make it right. Sometime you just have to stop looking at the cost and do what has to be done to be certain it is once and for all DONE.

I think you both deserve a steak dinner when this is done (wives included). 

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> "The owner said he is not interested in taking up more of our time with piece meal adjustments and fixes." I was in a different line of work but same dilemma, and did exactly what it sounds like he intends, do everything and make it right. Sometime you just have to stop looking at the cost and do what has to be done to be certain it is once and for all DONE.
> 
> I think you both deserve a steak dinner when this is done (wives included).
> 
> Bud


Exactly.

In IT work, we had a client with incessant problems.. A constant string of service calls, replacing this or that, still no resolution. Finally we just said we will replace all patch cables, switches, put in a new router, and rebuild the server VM's from scratch.

After we did all of that everything is running perfect.. How long did it take us to reach that point? Probably 6 months of service calls piece mealing stuff here, and stuff there....

I feel like my roof is at this point.. Tear it down to the rafters, fix it, put it back together (with better components just in case).


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## Paultergeist (Oct 13, 2014)

itguy2017 said:


> *- Also, I found multiple spots with nails on the TOP of the shingles. I assume that is bad, right? *


You are correct. A visible nail head -- as shown in your previous photo -- is incorrect-installed, and presents a possible opportunity for water intrusion.



itguy2017 said:


> *- How much degranulation should I expect? I found 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the gutter. That seems excessive but what do I know? *


That much degranulation seems excessive to me as well. I would point out, however, that your roof has now gone through a couple of tear-off / re-roof events in the recent past. Does that granulation represent an accumulation from all of these events? Conversely, is that simply the result of the most-recent re-shingling (in which case that sure does seem like a lot of material).


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Good point, that's 2 roofs worth.

The roofing company hired an ventilation/insulation pro, he's working with us now. After he is finished and gives the green light I assume we will get a new, and final roof laid down.


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## weatheredwood (Aug 9, 2007)

This has been an interesting thread. You selected a good roofing company. The owner seems to be a good guy.

The felt slipping and causing it to buckle doesn't make sense to me either. I think someone else mentioned that. The fasteners for the shingles penetrate the felt and will hold it from slipping.

I think you just got a bad batch of shingles and the second roof was from the same batch.

My brother had Tamko shingles installed 9 years ago with no ventilation (he has icynene sprayed to the underside of the decking). He didn't have any issues. Tamko is very popular in Florida due to the cost.

How many squares did they install on your roof?


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Weathered,

I agree - Tamko has had bad manufacturing runs, but I think some other shingle firms had bad runs as well, it happens.

The insulation pro was out this morning and inspected the attic. He said there is 'some flow' and he could measure it, but with the drop edge vents largely obstructed it's not going to be enough. Also while he can clean the slope of the attic he cannot properly clean the peak without removing the sheeting at the top from the outside.

Interestingly, this guy said he doesn't feel insulation issues are bad enough to warrant TWO roof failures in a short period of time. He said in his experience (15 years insulating new and existing homes) that insulation issues tend to crop up over a longer period of time and are almost never immediate. He's not a roofer but he said he would be looking at defective material from Tamko as the primary cause, regardless of the insulation/ventilation.

He said it is common to find ventilation issues, but that they usually take 'years' to degrade the roof or cause cosmetic issues on the roof. He's seem numerous ones over the years but they are usually 3-6 years after the roof is done.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Ilya 01 said:


> Here is lots of info concerning roofs
> I personally found answers here to all my questions on roof
> Look through, you'll find some tips and advice
> 
> Ilya


Where?

Update - hes doing another, final roof in June. He said if this next one fails he will refund me and walk away.

We're doing a lot of things to ensure it goes well. I'm trying to leverage him to use Certainteed Landmark PRO instead of standard landmark, the pro look quite a bit better from the sample roofs I have seen.

Top grade product, combined with some additional ventilation work and other things, we're confident the roof will be great this time around.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

itguy2017 said:


> Where?
> 
> Update - hes doing another, final roof in June. He said if this next one fails he will refund me and walk away.



Wow.

A lot of guys at this point would be stuck with the contractor avoiding calls.

Good for him.


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## weatheredwood (Aug 9, 2007)

What was the final outcome? Did they replace the roof again?


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

Ilya 01 said:


> Here is lots of info concerning roofs
> I personally found answers here to all my questions on roof installing https://myrooff.com
> Look through, you'll find some tips and advice
> 
> Ilya


That is one of the poorest excuses for a website that I have ever seen. It sounds like it was written by someone who has limited understanding of roofing and the English language.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Dave Sal said:


> That is one of the poorest excuses for a website that I have ever seen. It sounds like it was written by someone who has limited understanding of roofing and the English language.


....and you are being way too kind, Dave Sal.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Dave I was embarrassed to post that I had looked at it.
Plus I suspect all or most of the graphics were stolen from other sites.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Guys, back for an update!

The roofers finally tore off the SECOND defective roof and reroofed my home today on a gorgeous 75'F day. The roofing company wanted perfect weather and allowed me to essentially pick all of the products and dictate how I wanted it done. Much of what I did was based off of this forum and personal research.

Certainteed Landmark Pro MaxDef (Driftwood color)
Shinglevent II (Ridge vents obviously, widened it more than last time)
Drip Edge Vents (widened, insulation cleared away)
Strategically placed cans (after talking with 10-12 roofers and examining roofs in area)
New Soffit Vents cut (strategic locations, such as under porch)
Certainteed Diamond Deck Underlayment

They just left an hour ago but I think the final result looks rather excellent.. The photo doesn't do it justice in person! Those Landmark Pro's are really really nice looking.. The crew foreman that did this said he hates Tamko in every way and said they've had a good number of failed roofs with Tamko over the last year - like mine.

Also on a sad note, the owner of the roofing company died suddenly in his sleep the day before this was to be done.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the Company owner.
Based on how he handled your project, it sounds like he was an okay guy.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Oh my goodness. That is terrible about his passing. He did sound like an honorable person.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

itguy2017 said:


> Shinglevent II (Ridge vents obviously, widened it more than last time)
> Drip Edge Vents (widened, insulation cleared away)
> Strategically placed cans (after talking with 10-12 roofers and examining roofs in area)


What is the purpose of these cans? Are they areas the ridge vent doesn't cover?

I ask because if any are positioned where they become intakes rather than exhaust it can be a problam if they are not designed for intake. Its been a few years since I was active in the industry but when I was I never saw a can vent that didn't have an intake warning.....that they could intake moisture like snow.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Sorry to hear of the owner passing. He obviously cared about his reputation and wanted to make things right with you. Thankfully his company is large enough to carry on without him. Maybe someone else from his family is actively involved.


That said, I too, along with Craig are curious about the mid roof can(s). 
Usually the most ideal venting scenario involves continues venting from eves to ridge.
Sounds like you have drip edge vents for intake, (not visible) and a ridge vent for exhaust.

The pan placement, for at least the one in the photo, looks peculiar.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

The can placement was after consulting with a ventilation specialist, 3-4 other roofers, a building inspector and having smoke-flow tests done. Also he brought in an insulation firm specializing in attics and attic vents, who recommended it.

The foreman of this crew also agreed. I was a bit skeptical so he drove me around a 2 block radius and looked at literally every new bungalow roof done in the last few years. Every single one of them had the identical can placement. He told me everyone recommended that for a reason, it's because of knee-wall flow issues in these tight attics.

The prevailing logic is, drip edge vent causes the lower to higher flow, as the air is pushed upward it gets 'dammed' on the tiny knee-wall gap and can't get out quick enough. With the cans at those locations it is just enough to keep the dammed up air from becoming a flow problem. So any air that can't flow up to the ridge good enough gets pushed out those cans. The THIRD smoke test seems to agree with their logic.

Additional comfort I have is every roofing company that services the area seems to agree - which is why everyone has the identical setup.


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Some additional notes - my neighbor to the south has only drip edge vents and ridge - no cans. I saw last winter he had what looked like ventilation issues with hot and coldspots visible on the OUTSIDE of his roof around the knee-wall dam area. I asked him about it and he said he was aware of it.

Here's a snapshot of three homes north of me, but 90% of the new roofed homes have them on this street from what I can tell. 










Hopefully everyone isn't wrong but I guess we'll find out over the next few years. So far the newer roofs look like they are holding up nicely. In the photo those are all between 1-4 years old at the most.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi itguy, I saw craig's post questioning the those cans and didn't want to get into a long explanation.
When you said "The can placement was after consulting with a ventilation specialist, 3-4 other roofers, a building inspector and having smoke-flow tests done. Also he brought in an insulation firm specializing in attics and attic vents, who recommended it."
I have to add, they are all guessing IMO. The foundation upon which they try to provide guidance is the old 1/300 vent ratio which was arbitrarily adopted long ago.
"The attic ventilation ratio “1/300” is an arbitrary number selected by the writers of FHA
(1942) with no citations or references. One might speculate that it is based on Rowley’s
1939 research, which showed a slight performance difference between openings with vent
ratios of 1/288 and 1/576. However, other evidence indicates it was not based on Rowley"
https://structuretech1.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Early-History-of-Attic-Ventilation.pdf

Note, 1942 and they still use the same numbers without further citations to substantiate them. 
The good news is, attic ventilation is not critical when the house to attic has been well air sealed. Basically, any ventilation is good enough. But codes cannot put that into words so they stick to the old rules.

Craig is correct, those cans may at times act as intake vents. But being at the mid height point they will do little for passive air flow, may actually reduce it. 

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Thanks Bud.

The attic above the home is pretty good. Above the primary livable space there is a thick plaster ceiling, then wood, then R-19 foil backed fiberglass rolled insulation. On top of that is 12 inches of blown in cellulose with an R-Value of 3.5 per inch.

There should be a minimum of R50-R70 throughout. 5 years ago when we had the cellulose work done the after effects were stunning. Virtually no heat loss at all from the primary living space into the attic. My heating bill dropped over 30% immediately. We will see how it goes, the smoke tests looked real good.

Side note - Tamko were the shingles in both of the previous failed roofs. The foreman out doing this one said they've had a 'long string' of failed Tamko shingle installs over the last 12 months. He doesn't trust them but that's what the deceased roofing guy preferred because of cost. This time, we went Certaineed Landmark Pro Maxdef and Diamondback underlayment. No chances taken.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

From where I'm sitting I have to rely on your judgement but I think you won the battle. All vents are subject to rain or snow infiltration and it is almost impossible to predict. I've seen light fluffy snow (effectively dust) blow in through well protected soffits. The key is to pay attention and check after weather events. In one case they solved the snow issue with a small plastic pool. Never very much but it all fell into the 4' pool and evaporated before it accumulated. It worked. After monitoring it for a few year with not problems you will gain confidence that your set up is working fine.

I think it looks great.

Bud


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## itguy2017 (Jan 26, 2017)

Will do. I agree at the worst - a quick fix if they do start to intake.


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