# How to obtain lime mortar for repointing in Ontario Canada



## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Hello everyone,

I've searched google and this forum in regards to repointing lime mortar.

My house was built in the 1950's and I have a few areas that require new lime mortar to fill the gaps in between bricks. I tested the lime mortar by putting it into vinegar and watching to see if it fizzes, which it did. Not the most scientific test but I am quite new to this.

Recently, I removed an old, outdated deck and noticed a large patch of lime mortar missing and something I want to fix as soon as possible.

I've read and watched videos on how to re-point, which seems pretty straightforward but I am unsure how to mix lime mortar for my house.

Here are a few pictures.


















I came across this thread:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/b...2-where-buy-lime-mortar-ontario-canada.html#b

People just state to mix it yourself.

From what I understand, I need to buy hydraulic lime...but I can only find *Hydrated lime.*

I'd really love to do this myself to learn and save some money and I can tell you that it's been quite a learning experience so far!


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

There is no native hydraulic lime in North America. Type S will work fine if you prepare it correctly. Put the lime into a bucket or other container large enough to hold what you need. Cover with water, but do not mix it, just cover it with water and keep it covered with water. The longer the better, but a minimum of a week. keep it covered with water and it will last forever.

To use, remove as much of the putty as you plan on laying at a time and mix it with 2-1/4 to 3 parts masonry sand or other good washed sand with a maximum size grain of 1/8" Mix well and point away.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Tscarborough,

Thank you for the reply. When you state *Type S*, do you mean something such as this?

http://www.lafarge-na.com/wps/porta...ductDatasheet_Cement_1277237138401/Product_EN

I did come across this before:

Mortar Mix Type S

Offering a high compressive strength, over 1800 psi, and with high tensile bond strength, mortar mix type S is the ideal product to be used in masonry at or below grade. It performs extremely well to fight soil pressure, wind or under seismic conditions. This mortar mix can be used for below grade areas, for example masonry foundations, manholes, retaining walls, sewers, and brick patios and brick pavements. Type S mortars are required to have a minimum of 1800 psi and their mixes usually give you strengths between 2300 to 3000 psi.


When you mentioned lime, were you referring to the Hydrated stuff?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mrrhtuner said:


> Tscarborough,
> 
> Thank you for the reply. When you state *Type S*, do you mean something such as this?
> 
> http://www.lafarge-na.com/wps/porta...ductDatasheet_Cement_1277237138401/Product_EN


That's a cement mortar, which you can't leave in a bucket of water overnight without it hardening.
There is a type S hydrated lime, which will make a lime putty.
Most of the lime purists like their putty at least 3 months old, but what Tscar suggested should do the trick for what you require.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

stuart45 said:


> That's a cement mortar, which you can't leave in a bucket of water overnight without it hardening.
> There is a type S hydrated lime, which will make a lime putty.
> Most of the lime purists like their putty at least 3 months old, but what Tscar suggested should do the trick for what you require.



Thank you Stuart for the clarification.


So all I would need is *Type-S Hydrated lime * and *masonry sand*? I guess the lime will take it's time to harden and do it's magic?

I came across this good document that helps me understand a bit more:

http://lime.org/documents/publications/free_downloads/fact-masonry.pdf

_Type S (Special) hydrated lime is a fine, white, high purity product which has been specially hydrated for convenient, trouble-free use. _



I can't even seem to find Type-S hydrated lime for consumer sale in Ontario. I'd drive to port huron MI if I could locate it. 

Seems homedepot in Michigan doesn't stock this anymore :-(

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oldcastle-50-lb-Type-S-Hydrated-Mason-Lime-65150081/100350513


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Lime does take longer to harden, although hydraulic lime is a lot more reliable on exterior work.
Lime mortar needs to be well mixed up. To give you an idea, when we use NHL 3.5 and sand for exterior pointing it is mixed up for 20 minutes in the mixer, left for 20minutes to fatten up, and then mixed again for a couple of minutes.
Don't add too much water to start with, because as more air gets into the mix it becomes wetter without too much water.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

You will not find Type S lime at a big box. Search under masonry supply. I am guessing Ontario is rated at least an SW weathering zone, so you may want to gauge the mortar with a very small amount of portland cement, less than 2% (by volume of cementious materials, i.e. the lime) at most. That will provide a minimal initial set and not interfere with desired properties of a lime mortar. 

You can also buy imported hydraulic limes but they are very expensive and hard to find.

"Hydraulic" means, in this application, that the mortar will set underwater.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Hey guys, so I've tried to source Type S hydrated lime and I can't seem to find anybody with it. This is of course locally without driving 2 hours for it.

I did see this on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Mutual-Indus...66167475&sr=8-1&keywords=type+s+hydrated+lime

*Pressure Hydrated Type S Lime*


This should work fine for my needs I am guessing?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Considering that I charge about 8 bucks for the same size bag, I would keep looking. You can buy French hydraulic for that price.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

When I Google, "masonry supply ontario canada", there appear to be a lot of hits that should carry lime.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks Tscar,

I searched locally and the only thing I found close was: *Portland / lime mix*
I've called all 7 masonry supply locations in London ontario.

I'll keep calling some places in the GTA and see what I can find.

I honestly don't mind the drive to the USA nor the cost if need be as I need to patch these gaps and keep on with my backyard reno


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Soo I found this place:

www.carmeusena.com

They directed me to their ingersol plant. They sell Hydrated Lime (unknown if Type-S or not) to a company called Sylvite Agri-Services Ltd which packages the Hydrated lime.

I'm waiting for a call back to see if its Type-S or not.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If they are packaging it for agricultural use it is not.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Tscarborough said:


> If they are packaging it for agricultural use it is not.



Well I supposedly did finally locate Type S Hydrated Lime.

Graymont referred me to Skycon building products in the GTA.

http://skycon.ca/sky/index.php



Looking at what they offer for lime:

http://skycon.ca/sky/index.php?cPath=29_28


I called them and they stated they have Type S Hydrated lime in 50 lb bags which is great.


On their site, I came across this Graymont Mortaseal, which seems to require portland cement into the mix...which is not what I want.

http://www.graymont.com/sites/default/files/pdf/tech/mortaseal_product_brochure_5-01.pdf


Does anybody know which lime product would be the item I am looking for on their site?

I don't want to drive 2 hours to be sold something incorrect.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

So after some more reading, seems that Graymont Mortaseal is not something I suspect anybody would recommend...based on this line:

http://www.graymont.com/en/markets/building-construction/restoration

Graymont's Genoa facility manufacturers Type S Mason's lime products under two brand names, *Mortaseal*®, Miracle® and Super Limoid S® (East Coast brand). These products are fully hydrated and are available for immediate use. *When properly combined with cement* and sand, they create a lime mortar having superior performance and ageless durability. 



Digging a bit further, I suspect that the Natural Hydraulic Lime 3.5 is what I am after:

*NHL 3.5*
Moderately Hydraulic
Medium Density Masonry
Moderate Exposure
NHL 3.5 is for general building, suitable for moderately permeable masonry materials. Basically, if you don't need to use NHL 2 or NHL 5 then use this.

*NHL 3.5, Typical Uses:*
Bricks, facings, commons, blockwork, sandstone, limestone, terracotta, internal & external building work, cavity & solid wall construction, bedding, *pointing, re-pointing*


__________________________________________




*
Does that sound correct?*


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Maybe a silly question but I need to know. Why does it need to be lime mortar? Why can't you use regular mortar?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Not a silly question at all. In older properties with solid brick walls built with soft bricks and shallow foundations lime mortar allows for movement in the wall and moisture to pass through the joints easier than OPC mortar. Hard joints and soft bricks often result in spalling.
However in this case the house was built in the 50's, so the mortar may well have been gauged with some Portland,. the bricks are probably much harder and the foundations deeper. If this is the case a cement mortar may be OK.
I have seen older properties where the brickwork has been damaged by cement mortar, but I have seen others where the brickwork still looks OK years later.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

So now that I've located and secured NHL 3.5 lime and the sand doesn't seem to be difficult to get...would it be safe to say that the following mixing procedure is adequate?

*Start with an empty mixer
Add 1 part sand
Followed by 1 part lime
Followed by 2 parts sand
Mix dry for at least 5 minutes
After 5 minutes slowly add water until the desired consistency is reached, it is very important not to drown the mix by adding too much water.
Once the desired consistency is reached mix for a further 20 minutes

(The above example is based on a mix ratio of 1:3)*


I am a bit worried about adding too much or too little water as they explain that both ways has a negative effect on the mortar.

http://www.roundtowerlime.com/technical-information/mortar-mixing.html


Wikipedia mentions the mix also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_mortar

A typical modern lime mortar mix would be 1 part lime putty to 3 parts washed, well graded, sharp sand.



So after reading that, with my *Secil Natural Hydraulic Lime 3.5* that I purchased and the sand that I will acquire, I can also make this into a 'putty'?


I was under the impression that a putty was just lime and water left together for a period of time prior to being used. I guess I can't do the same thing with NHL 3.5?


::Sorry for all these questions, I've tried to search as much as I can but things get confusing and fast with all of this.


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Let it mix for a while before adding too much water, as when air gets into the mix it becomes more workable. Let it stand for 20 minutes and then mix for a couple more.
Most people round here use 50/50 sharp/building sand to make a more workable mix.
You can't make putty and leave overnight with hydraulic lime.


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## mrrhtuner (Dec 23, 2014)

Hello everyone, old post but I still haven't been able to repoint those bricks. Life happened at a fast pace and everything got put on hold.

I'm planning on doing this in the next few days but I am unsure what kind sand I need.

I've looked at what homedepot.ca has or some of the large big box stores and as I don't have a lot to repoint,* I'm unsure where to find sharp/building sand or washed sharp coarse sand. *


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> * I'm unsure where to find sharp/building sand or washed sharp coarse sand.*


Ayuh,.... Go to the nearest quarry that makes, 'n trucks out concrete,...

They'll probably give ya a couple 5 gallon pails of Mason's Sand,....


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... Go to the nearest quarry that makes, 'n trucks out concrete,...
> 
> They'll probably give ya a couple 5 gallon pails of Mason's Sand,....


That's usually a good source for sandblasting sand too.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

SeniorSitizen said:


> That's usually a good source for *sandblasting sand* too.


Ayuh,..... Sand is so ole fashion now a days,.... :vs_no_no_no:

Bakin' Soda, or graded crushed glass is the new "Green" blast media,....

Glass is abrasive as sand, it comes from recycled trash, 'n the risks from silica are pretty much gone,... :wink2:


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## iknowyourthere (Nov 15, 2017)

Would you please post where you were able to source your lime from in London.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

If you need info on lime in London check this site.
www.historic-scotland.gov.uk
Address: Historic - Scotland, Longmore House, Salisbury Place, Edinburgh EH9ISH Tel: 0131-668-8638 These people will know all about Lime in the UK.


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## iknowyourthere (Nov 15, 2017)

Thank you for the sources I'm confident they will come in handy for someone, unfortunately for me I was looking for a source in London Ontario Canada as per original post.


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## TorontoDIYer (Dec 31, 2020)

I know this post is approximately 3yrs old - but in case anyone is still looking, I'm in the process of planning/starting to repoint my natural stone foundation (interior) wall and just ordered a bag of lime from Building Supply Toronto | Toolkit Building Supply | (416) 892-1848

They're located in Toronto and do curb side pick-up.

My plan is to make lime putty and mix with sand to repoint. I'm still researching this a bit more though.


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## Vandertree (Jan 5, 2021)

Hey TODIYer, 

I'm also starting down this path so I'd be interested to see what you find, if you don't mind posting on here. I've only just started my initial research and I won't be needing it possibly till spring. I'll be using it for some exterior mortar on a small straw bale shelter I am building.

I'm also in Toronto, in East York.


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## TorontoDIYer (Dec 31, 2020)

Hey Vandertree,

Lots of confusion for me on Lime, Hydrated Lime, Hydraulic Lime, etc. From what I've been able to determine - Hydraulic Lime is what would be needed - mixed with sand in a ration of 1 part Hydraulic Lime to 2 parts sand.

Historic Building Products (Historic-Building-Products-Ltd.) in Toronto is the place to go if you want to attempt this yourself. I spoke to them on Monday and they were extremely helpful and knowledgable.

Another alternative is to purchase Type-O mortar. 

Home Depot carries this in 2kg pails and is called "Sakrete Mason-Craft". It can't be stored in bags due to the lime content. This should be completely fine given the extremely low compressive strength (350PSI).

Personally, I went with the Sakrete Mason-Craft as the directions are very straight forward (there's even a youtube video) and I didn't want to make a mistake with the mix ratio, including the amount of water to add - this needs to be exact for Lime mortars.

It's a bit more expensive ($11.99 per pail) but for my application I only needed 3 pails. So it was fine.

Best of luck.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

TorontoDIYer said:


> Hey Vandertree,
> 
> Lots of confusion for me on Lime, Hydrated Lime, Hydraulic Lime, etc. From what I've been able to determine - Hydraulic Lime is what would be needed - mixed with sand in a ration of 1 part Hydraulic Lime to 2 parts sand.
> 
> ...


See if you can locate a copy of this booklet.


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