# Hear water running but nothing is on/running/open...



## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

When I walked in the house, I heard water running. It was only on the 1st floor (concrete slab, no basement) and it sounded like it was coming from the guest bathroom toilet but after they refilled from a flush, I didn't see water leaking into the tank or the bowl and when I turned the fill valve off to the toilet, I still heard water running. 

I didn't stop hearing it until I turned off the shut off valve outside at entry point of where the water line enters into house. FWIW, the only thing between this point and the guest bathroom is the garage, which has the hot water heater, which is from 1999 but seemed fine and I didn't hear anything unusual. 

Your thoughts? 

FWIW...I don't know if this is related or just a strange coincidence but before I walked in the house tonite and heard the water running, I noticed the hatch for the main water meter box out in my yard was open. 

When I went over to shut it, I found this little surprise, which I couldn't actually see at the time because of all the bees.








I sprayed the hell out of it but needless to say, I didn't get close enough to shut it off tonite...And thankfully, I didn't have to.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Just look at a toilet is not going to tell you if it's leaking.
Add some red food coloring to the tank and see if it ends up in the bowl.
Shut the cold water line off that goes to the water heater, not the main to narrow the problem down.
Sure there's not a circulating pump connected to the water heater? It's there to circulate the water so as soon as the tap is opened the water is hot.
How old is this house?
Pretty common in older homes with the lines run through the slab with steel or copper lines to start leaking at some point and need to be replaced or rerouted.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

The house was built in 1970. So, if what you say about older homes with the lines run through the slab is true, that certainly doesn't sound like a cheap or easy fix. ;(
Added food coloring to tank...nothing going into bowl. Don't know about a circulating pump but there are at least 3 "valves" leading into on top of my water heater so I'm not sure which valve is the one to turn off?? FWIW, I have a 1999 AO Smith EES 52 917


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

you should have two shut off valves for the home one at the meter and the other just before the water line enters the house. if you haven't already done this. look at the water meter dial it should have two dials one register one flow the smaller flow indicator should not move if no water is being used if its moving and nothings running in the house then your losing water somewhere. next turn the valve off going into the house (providing that it hold 100% check the meter flow dial again see if it stopped or is still moving if it stopped then your problem is between the meter and the house if it doesn't your problem is most likely in or under the home ie broken line under the slab??, in order to get a accurate diagnosis all valve need to close off 100% and it may be time to get a pro in to take a look.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

joecaption said:


> ...Shut the cold water line off that goes to the water heater, not the main to narrow the problem down...


In the pics you can see I have three pipes going into the top of the water heater, a cold supply , a hot going out and possibly a relief pipe. The one marked "COLD" has a Open/Close handle just like the shut valve at the entry point into the house. 

When I put the "COLD" into the Close position, I still hear the sound of water running and the meter is still showing water passing through, which does not stop until I close the shut off valve outside at entry point of where the water line enters into house.


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

a1481155 said:


> In the pics you can see I have three pipes going into the top of the water heater, a cold supply , a hot going out and possibly a relief pipe. The one marked "COLD" has a Open/Close handle just like the shut valve at the entry point into the house.
> 
> When I put the "COLD" into the Close position, I still hear the sound of water running and the meter is still showing water passing through, which does not stop until I close the shut off valve outside at entry point of where the water line enters into house.


Sounds like a cold water leak to me. Can you pinpoint the location of sound?


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Robpo said:


> Sounds like a cold water leak to me. Can you pinpoint the location of sound?


No, I have not been able to "pinpoint" it and still don't see any water damage. That said, I believe I've narrowed it down to somewhere under my garage floor between the main the hot water heater and bathroom, which shares a wall with the garage.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

You need to contact a leak detection company, they will have electronic amplification equipment to find and repair the leak.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks! 

A 4th co. sent a "technician" out for a free "look see" in order to propose how much it would cost to do a "Leak Detection". After waiting 3 days and 2 other appts where they pulled the old no show - no call, the tech shows up 2 hours late for the 3rd appt. I guess "free" is a matter of opinion at this point. Sorry, I had to vent.









ANYWAY... The technician seemed to know what he was talking about, went through everything we've discussed and with no equipment he's 100% confident he's narrowed it down to a cold water line slab leak(s); possibly starting in the garage somewhere between the hot water heater and the suspect bathroom/toilet but definitely under the bathroom/toilet as well as the laundry sink & potentially the washing machine, which are both a little further away from the hot water heater then the bathroom/toilet but all are basically in the same room. 

He has proposed $345 to come back for "Leak Detection" i.e. open the walls to "pin point and cap off the leak(s)" with a "pressure machine" so he can then give me a flat rate "per job" proposal to repair the leak(s). FWIW, he says he's also 100% sure he "will not have dig up the slab unless I want him to put the new line(s) underground". 

Your thoughts?


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

My thought?

Any contractor who knows anything "100% sure" before he's actually done the diagnostics is suspect.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

I wouldn't let that guy back in my house.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

the Plumber/GC


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks! 

Please, disregard my that last post...

The first 2 plumbers I called don't even do leak detection, but they bith recommended the same guy at the same co., who I called 2 days ago but have not heard from. The 3rd plumber (also a GC) said he'd charge for leak detection as follows: 

$295 ("Non-invasive, standard underground sonic leak detection equipment, 90% accuracy")
$495 ("more in-depth could mean holes in walls, 95% accuracy")
$695 ("holes in walls and/or demo concrete floor, 100% accuracy")

A friend referred me to a 4th plumber but unfortunately he is the 3rd one that does not do leak detection but he recommended I go with the Plumber/GC and his $295 option; "If he has the right sonar equipment, he SHOULD be able to pin point it without putting holes in the walls or tearing up the floor." 

FWIW, I'm thinking I can can put holes in my walls and tear up the floor for a lot less than $695.


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

:jester:forked willow branch. I am surprised nobody has mentioned it yet.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

You may be able to narrow the area of the leak with a home made stethoscope. A couple of household plastic funnels and a length of hose that will reach to near the floor will do it.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Now that I think about it; the first indication of a problem was actually at the toilet a couple weeks ago. I suddenly noticed that the tank was not filling with enough water to flush the toilet unless I opened up the fill valve a little more. Hmmm? :detective: The "technician" was confident in ruling out a leak outside the house, from the main to the hot water heater AND that the leak(s) is on the cold water line but not so confident in ruling out a leak from the hot water heater to the bathroom. 

That said, I'm thinking this is a cold water leak(s) under the slab in my garage from the hot water heater to the bathroom. From what you've all had me check here, what I told you and the tech did, how does that logic sound? 

FWIW, I have a real stethoscope.  

I still have not heard back from the one leak detection guy that the 1st 2 plumbers referred so I put a call back into the plumber/GC about his $295 "non-invasive" leak detection offer.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

As strange as it may seem the funnel scope will be better in that application and that could very well be what the $265.00 charge is for.

There are people that believe concrete soaks up water like a sponge. I'm wondering why it hasn't surfaced by now but possibly you could detect a temperature difference in the floor surface.


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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

a1481155 said:


> Now that I think about it; the first indication of a problem was actually at the toilet a couple weeks ago. I suddenly noticed that the tank was not filling with enough water to flush the toilet unless I opened up the fill valve a little more. Hmmm? :detective: The "technician" was confident in ruling out a leak outside the house, from the main to the hot water heater AND that the leak(s) is on the cold water line but not so confident in ruling out a leak from the hot water heater to the bathroom.
> 
> That said, I'm thinking this is a cold water leak(s) under the slab in my garage from the hot water heater to the bathroom. From what you've all had me check here, what I told you and the tech did, how does that logic sound?
> 
> ...


Since you still heard the sound when you turned the hot water off that would determine the leak was in the cold water.
In the pics you can see I have three pipes going into the top of the water heater, a cold supply , a hot going out and possibly a relief pipe. The one marked "COLD" has a Open/Close handle just like the shut valve at the entry point into the house. 

When I put the "COLD" into the Close position, I still hear the sound of water running and the meter is still showing water passing through, which does not stop until I close the shut off valve outside at entry point of where the water line enters into house.


The cold is the cold water going into the hot water heater.


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks!


Fairview said:


> As strange as it may seem the funnel scope will be better in that application and that could very well be what the $265.00 charge is for.


I'll try to confirm what "machine", "equipment" or "funnel scope" will be used for leak detection by these pros, if they're willing to tell me. Come to think of it, the "technician" mentioned he had his on "scope" so I'll have to see what I can MacGyver. 



Fairview said:


> There are people that believe concrete soaks up water like a sponge. I'm wondering why it hasn't surfaced by now but possibly you could detect a temperature difference in the floor surface.


I'm wondering why it hasn't surfaced myself...other than on the water bill.  but I'm hoping that I caught it relatively quickly and have not run the water for 6 days now unless "leak detecting". That said, the garage slab is coated/painted and the slab in the house has I believe 3 layers of flooring on top of it...vinyl, ceramic tile and laminate. So, while waiting to hear back from the pros I've called, I'm still looking for others. FWIW, Regarding moisture & temp... I picked up the following at HD, if anyone has any experience with these I appreciate your feedback: 
*Ryobi **Pinless Moisture Meter (**Model # E49MM01)*
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Pinless-Moisture-Meter-E49MM01/202048566

* Ryobi Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer (Model # IR001)*
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Non-Contact-Infrared-Thermometer-IR001/100674438


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## a1481155 (Dec 2, 2012)

Leak detection cos. in this area are RARE and either in very high demand or I don't know what because none have called me back...I keep looking. ;( In the mean time, I've been able to flush the toilet and get by using rain water harvested outside.

I went to measure the wall in the garage behind the toilet to mark it's location but had to move the refrigerator to do so. Upon moving said appliance, I noticed a small 6" area of DRY water damage on the drywall where it meets the floor...not directly behind the toilet but close enough. 

The damage is actually at a strange spot on the garage wall because it's where part of the other side of the wall is in the house where the toilet is and the other part is outside the garage & the toilet/bathroom but I figure this is as good place as any to open up the drywall and start investigating.

That said, with that electrical panel right there, how & where would you start opening the wall? 



























BTW, my apologies for the sideways images.


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## TedK3 (Sep 10, 2014)

*Sounds like running water, but meter is not moving*

I hear the sound of water running through the main pipe coming into the house, but the water meter doesn't move AT ALL. If I shut the main valve, the sound diminishes a lot but doesn't go away completely. If I open up a faucet on our laundry tub, the meter moves quite rapidly and the sound increases.
It SEEMS that the sound is coming through the pipe into the house, but I am baffled. 
Is it possible that there is a leak outside the house and the sound is being transmitted through the pipe? Would a city water department check that out?


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Generally it's better to start a new thread with your own problem. You'll get more answers quicker 

BUT.....

If your water meter isn't moving AT ALL, as you say, then the sound you're hearing isn't water.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Footing drains tied into sanitary system?


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## TedK3 (Sep 10, 2014)

I don't think so. The sound is clearly coming from the water supply line.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

If you shut the water off at the meter, does the noise continue?


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## TedK3 (Sep 10, 2014)

The noise decreases, but is probably still about half as loud as when the value is open.


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## jmon (Nov 5, 2012)

TedK3 said:


> I hear the sound of water running through the main pipe coming into the house, but the water meter doesn't move AT ALL. If I shut the main valve, the sound diminishes a lot but doesn't go away completely. If I open up a faucet on our laundry tub, the meter moves quite rapidly and the sound increases.
> It SEEMS that the sound is coming through the pipe into the house, but I am baffled.
> Is it possible that there is a leak outside the house and the sound is being transmitted through the pipe? Would a city water department check that out?


I agree, it's possible there could be a leak before the meter and you're hearing it through the pipe. May be why you still hear it even with the water off at the meter. If that's the case, the city water department should be able to assist you further. Call and see, it should be their responsibilty. Each municilpality is different. Just a suggestion.

Is there any sign of water outside your house?


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## n9pbt (Aug 8, 2010)

Didn't read all the posts, but had a similar "problem" in my last house. Not sure if this applies to you, but it was the line for the second floor a/c unit which ran up through the wall.


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## TedK3 (Sep 10, 2014)

I have called the city and they are coming out tomorrow. I have not seen signs of water outside the house, but I am going to look more carefully for that tomorrow.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

You may not have signs of an outside leak, water is tricky and will always find the easiest path to take.


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