# Choosing insulation



## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Hi all, I’m looking to get some advice on choosing insulation for my finished basement. I’m not sure which to go with, the application is typical raised ranch, half below grade against concrete foundation and half above against exterior walls. The main reason we are refinishing is we had mold behind drywall. So any advice towards choosing the right insulation would be greatly appreciated. I’ll post some pictures below.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Did you fix the exterior water problem? It sure looks like the paint bubbled following the slope of the grade, which means excess moisture coming through the concrete because no damproofing.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

3onthetree said:


> Did you fix the exterior water problem? It sure looks like the paint bubbled following the slope of the grade, which means excess moisture coming through the concrete because no damproofing.


The exterior water problem seemed to be from years of downspouts dumping against the foundation. The walls have been open for a month now and it has rained a lot, I haven’t seen water at all since redirecting the water. Are you suggesting I paint the concrete with something ?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

No, I'm suggesting that there was excess _moisture_ present going through the concrete, different than leaking _water_ around/through the wall, and closing the wall off created the mold problem. So does that prominent line where you scraped off the paint follow the grade?


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

3onthetree said:


> No, I'm suggesting that there was excess _moisture_ present going through the concrete, different than leaking _water_ around/through the wall, and closing the wall off created the mold problem. So does that prominent line where you scraped off the paint follow the grade?


I’m not sure I’m understating. What is seen in the photos is what was exposed while removing the drywall. I did not scrape or remove any paint


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> I’m not sure I’m understating. What is seen in the photos is what was exposed while removing the drywall. I did not scrape or remove any paint


Was the mold on the concrete or the lumber or the drywall, was it as the bottom or top. 
We can see previous repair, mold in the lower wall may have been left over from before that repair?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Moisture comes in 2 forms as 3tree is explaining, liquid water and moisture vapor. Often the vapor form does not show up until the area is covered when the vapor can accumulate. left exposed that vapor just passes directly to the air and does not accumulate. It can also follow the concrete from below the footings up through the concrete. 

It boild down to you needing to plan on moisture being present and one of the better products for that is a layer rigid foam board cut to fit.

I also noticed what looks like wood flooring? If so what is under it.

Bud


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> Was the mold on the concrete or the lumber or the drywall, was it as the bottom or top.
> We can see previous repair, mold in the lower wall may have been left over from before that repair?


The mold was on the drywall closest to the floor. Had the mrs not become ill to no resolve we would have never know it was back there. It has been professionally remediated and fingers were pointed to the downspouts.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Bud9051 said:


> Moisture comes in 2 forms as 3tree is explaining, liquid water and moisture vapor. Often the vapor form does not show up until the area is covered when the vapor can accumulate. left exposed that vapor just passes directly to the air and does not accumulate. It can also follow the concrete from below the footings up through the concrete.
> 
> It boild down to you needing to plan on moisture being present and one of the better products for that is a layer rigid foam board cut to fit.
> 
> ...


The house is new to us so I’m assuming there was physically water coming in from the rotted sill plate,now since the walls have been open I have yet to see any signs of actual moisture. The house was vinyl sided in 2008 so maybe the problem was “fixed” and no signs of moisture actually showed? Aka prev owners were not sensitive to mold and would have never noticed. Or is there a moisture vapor issue? I did notice while drilling the concrete for sill anchors, the concrete was sort of crumbly. The flooring you see is recently installed porcelain tile on a concrete floor. (No cracks were seen)


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> The mold was on the drywall closest to the floor. Had the mrs not become ill to no resolve we would have never know it was back there. It has been professionally remediated and fingers were pointed to the downspouts.


was there insulation and was it the same insulation as the upper wall?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

You had water physically coming in rotting your sill plate (from your other thread) and attracting termites. Either flooding somehow or coming from above/through the wood wall penetrations. 
But in this picture, I still see moisture problems, because a former water leakage problem with the sill wouldn't necessarily cause this pattern with the paint below it:










Someone painted the wall, after the kneewall was built, probably because of moisture issues. Over time paint (even "waterproofing" paint) will bubble from moisture behind it, lots of moisture behind it will cause it to come off. So either the mold remediators you hired cleaned up the pile of paint chips or the PO did some remediation sometime after the initial painting. The color & 'cleanliness' of the concrete in the corner looks like its damp as we speak, so to me water outside is still sitting up against the wall. Hence the grading and damproofing questions. It does not look ready to me to enclose just yet until the moisture (water outside comes through the concrete as moisture) issues are satisfied.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Tape a square of sheet poly here and leave it thru the next rain.
You are looking for moisture between it and the concrete, moisture on the basement side would be normal. +


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> You had water physically coming in rotting your sill plate (from your other thread) and attracting termites. Either flooding somehow or coming from above/through the wood wall penetrations.
> But in this picture, I still see moisture problems, because a former water leakage problem with the sill wouldn't necessarily cause this pattern with the paint below it:
> 
> View attachment 638846
> ...


It looks like they raised the foundation 4" and added the new sill and may have thought that was the problem.
It does look like the paint was done before the repair or the new concrete would have been painted too.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

3onthetree said:


> You had water physically coming in rotting your sill plate (from your other thread) and attracting termites. Either flooding somehow or coming from above/through the wood wall penetrations.
> But in this picture, I still see moisture problems, because a former water leakage problem with the sill wouldn't necessarily cause this pattern with the paint below it:
> 
> View attachment 638846
> ...


I now understand what you are saying. That far right lower corner (in red) is exactly where the gutter down spout was draining for years, not putting all the blame on that but it’s definitely a hot spot


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> It does look like the paint was done before the repair or the new concrete would have been painted too.


The kneewall studs have paint slopped on them like from a roller squeezing behind them. His other 2 threads have more pictures, the rot (termites) went up next to the windows too, not just the sill.



Camarojoe12 said:


> That far right lower corner (in red) is exactly where the gutter down spout was draining for years, not putting all the blame on that but it’s definitely a hot spot


Gutters/leaders are the best and easiest, but may not necessarily be the end all for foundation water problems. The overall grading, or a porch/stoop right at or near that wall could be contributing or holding water there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> The kneewall studs have paint slopped on them like from a roller squeezing behind them. His other 2 threads have more pictures, the rot (termites) went up next to the windows too, not just the sill.
> 
> 
> Gutters/leaders are the best and easiest, but may not necessarily be the end all for foundation water problems. The overall grading, or a porch/stoop right at or near that wall could be contributing or holding water there.


I was seeing things, what i thought was new concrete is just shadow of the 2x4.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

3onthetree said:


> The kneewall studs have paint slopped on them like from a roller squeezing behind them. His other 2 threads have more pictures, the rot (termites) went up next to the windows too, not just the sill.
> 
> 
> Gutters/leaders are the best and easiest, but may not necessarily be the end all for foundation water problems. The overall grading, or a porch/stoop right at or near that wall could be contributing or holding water there.





Nealtw said:


> It looks like they raised the foundation 4" and added the new sill and may have thought that was the problem.
> It does look like the paint was done before the repair or the new concrete would have been painted too.


I will try the poly on the concrete and report back it’s supposed to rain in the next couple days. Also where are you seeing the foundation being raised. I will post some better photos,


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)




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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> I will try the poly on the concrete and report back it’s supposed to rain in the next couple days. Also where are you seeing the foundation being raised. I will post some better photos,


I was seeing things, what i thought was new concrete is just shadow of the 2x4.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

This is damp proofing to grade, we should see it just above the level of the dirt outside.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> This is damp proofing to grade, we should see it just above the level of the dirt outside.
> View attachment 638866


Definitely doesn’t have that. The house was built in 1969, I guess the next step is calling a water proofing company or a foundation company .?


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## Mordekyle (Dec 3, 2020)

Camarojoe12 said:


> The exterior water problem seemed to be from years of downspouts dumping against the foundation. The walls have been open for a month now and it has rained a lot, I haven’t seen water at all since redirecting the water. Are you suggesting I paint the concrete with something ?


You don’t have to be able to see it for it to be a problem.


Moisture meter?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

I think we are finally getting somewhere, just not on your insulation question 

Luckily, a raised ranch doesn't have to dig down a full 8' to install damproofing and a drain tile, if that's ultimately what you need to do. I do see on the outside pic looks like the grade raised up too high and algae growth on the exposed foundation wall. So even if the gutters/leaders have been fixed, you can still have water pooling, maybe not swimming-depth for worms, but enough directed to contribute to moisture problems inside. More exterior zoomed-out pictures could help if you want to investigate further.

Looking at the new pic closeups show the concrete has had long-term moisture damage, as the surface portland/sand (lime content is worse for that on older homes) is broken down and i bet you can kinda 'roll a block across it and create a dust.' The 2 "Tee" studs in the corner (the extra stubbie bottom plate) probably means they were once rotten and cut off down low.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> I think we are finally getting somewhere, just not on your insulation question
> 
> Luckily, a raised ranch doesn't have to dig down a full 8' to install damproofing and a drain tile, if that's ultimately what you need to do. I do see on the outside pic looks like the grade raised up too high and algae growth on the exposed foundation wall. So even if the gutters/leaders have been fixed, you can still have water pooling, maybe not swimming-depth for worms, but enough directed to contribute to moisture problems inside. More exterior zoomed-out pictures could help if you want to investigate further.
> 
> Looking at the new pic closeups show the concrete has had long-term moisture damage, as the surface portland/sand (lime content is worse for that on older homes) is broken down and i bet you can kinda 'roll a block across it and create a dust.' The 2 "Tee" studs in the corner (the extra stubbie bottom plate) probably means they were once rotten and cut off down low.


You were right to keep pushing the moisture issue, to bad they didn't go after it with the last repair.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

3onthetree said:


> I think we are finally getting somewhere, just not on your insulation question
> 
> Luckily, a raised ranch doesn't have to dig down a full 8' to install damproofing and a drain tile, if that's ultimately what you need to do. I do see on the outside pic looks like the grade raised up too high and algae growth on the exposed foundation wall. So even if the gutters/leaders have been fixed, you can still have water pooling, maybe not swimming-depth for worms, but enough directed to contribute to moisture problems inside. More exterior zoomed-out pictures could help if you want to investigate further.
> 
> Looking at the new pic closeups show the concrete has had long-term moisture damage, as the surface portland/sand (lime content is worse for that on older homes) is broken down and i bet you can kinda 'roll a block across it and create a dust.' The 2 "Tee" studs in the corner (the extra stubbie bottom plate) probably means they were once rotten and cut off down low.





























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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> You were right to keep pushing the moisture issue, to bad they didn't go after it with the last repair.


Little update. It’s been snowing and rainy here and the walls are still open. I taped plastic sheeting to the foundation,it’s been 1 month since doing so. No moisture on either side of the plastic and the humidity has not gotten over 30% in the room. Recently sealed the foundation on the inside with a local product called hydro seal 75 which is supposed to seal out moisture up to 45psi. I think I’m now ready to close up the remaining walls. The question I have is is it necessary to insulate against the foundation? If so what type is used for it? Thanks again


















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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> Little update. It’s been snowing and rainy here and the walls are still open. I taped plastic sheeting to the foundation,it’s been 1 month since doing so. No moisture on either side of the plastic and the humidity has not gotten over 30% in the room. Recently sealed the foundation on the inside with a local product called hydro seal 75 which is supposed to seal out moisture up to 45psi. I think I’m now ready to close up the remaining walls. The question I have is is it necessary to insulate against the foundation? If so what type is used for it? Thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it framed with 2x3, if that is what it is I would by batt insulation for 2x6 and split it in half. 
It is important to fill every nook and funny shape, once it is insulated the concrete will stay cold and you do not want that cold getting to the back of the drywall.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> Is it framed with 2x3, if that is what it is I would by batt insulation for 2x6 and split it in half.
> It is important to fill every nook and funny shape, once it is insulated the concrete will stay cold and you do not want that cold getting to the back of the drywall.


Thanks for the response. Yes it is 2x3, I will give it a go this weekend. Is there any need for plastic sheeting over the insulation? Or is that really asking for trouble?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> Thanks for the response. Yes it is 2x3, I will give it a go this weekend. Is there any need for plastic sheeting over the insulation? Or is that really asking for trouble?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We use it here but it isn't called for everywhere. the important thing is no air getting behind the wall and insulation. If house air gets to the cold foundation, that can cause mold.


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> We use it here but it isn't called for everywhere. the important thing is no air getting behind the wall and insulation. If house air gets to the cold foundation, that can cause mold.


What is the reasoning for splitting the 2x6 batts any how? Can I tuck the unfaced scrap on top of the knee wall?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I don't think you can get bat insulation to fit 2x3 wall, if you can, great. 
Using scrap is fine as long as it fits and fills the space,


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## Camarojoe12 (Apr 24, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> I don't think you can get bat insulation to fit 2x3 wall, if you can, great.
> Using scrap is fine as long as it fits and fills the space,


I can get rolls or batts for 2x4 and split those to reduce waste. Just wasn’t sure if the r value was completely different for 2x4 vs 2x6 thanks again


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Camarojoe12 said:


> I can get rolls or batts for 2x4 and split those to reduce waste. Just wasn’t sure if the r value was completely different for 2x4 vs 2x6 thanks again
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would think the 6" R values would be 50% more than the 4"


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## SLSTech (Jan 19, 2021)

You can probably use an R13 or 15 faced batt assuming it will not be touching the concrete - it looks like you have enough room but if a section or two will be to close you can simply pull a little off the back. NO PLASTIC unless you are essentially at the North Pole aka you don't use or have AC


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