# Shadows on my new paint job



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I saw no mention of sanding the repairs or priming before your painting over them.


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

I had used a primer in that room many years ago when we built the house. The paint that I had used in there previous seemed fine, no shadows I seen anywhere. I did use a fine grit sandpaper block to sand just over the damage in the wall, from nails or small screws. I wanted the repair to be flush with the wall


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

if i understand you correctly you spackled some small holes and painted one coat of paint. what you need to do is first spot prime the patches, for spackle you can use basic latex primer ,flat paint, or even your finish paint .as for going back over it after the fact you will most likely see the touch up.


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

Oh no, I think that could be the problem then! I thought using the primer in the paint would take care of that! I know you have to prime after doing repairs, but I thought the primer in the paint would do it. Does it sound like if I go over it, I will make it worse? Thanks!


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

ltd said:


> if i understand you correctly you spackled some small holes and painted one coat of paint. *what you need to do is first spot prime the patches*, for spackle you can use basic latex primer ,flat paint, or even your finish paint .as for going back over it after the fact you will most likely see the touch up.


That's what I'm thinking. Non-primed patches are going to absorb the paint, and will produce an entirely different "finish" than what goes on primed wall.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Another person who bought the line that one coat will do 2 things! 
You need to spot prime. 
The primer in the paint is a great sales gimmick, but it really means nothing.


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

I've been in the retail end of paint for nearly a decade now...

I remember rolling my eyes when Behr started this silliness about P&P in one.
There is no such thing!!

We usually asked people who inquired about it..."How does the primer in the can know how to get to the wall first...?!"

Anyway...
* You HAVE to prime the dried, sanded, & de-dusted patch areas!!! 
* It's like painting over quicksand if you don't. Patch materials are very thirsty, and will pull in more resin that surrounding areas.
* That's why patched spots usually appear different/duller at some angles.
* When I do patches, I feather-sand the edges, and check with a small flashlight laid flat on the wall. This shows me if I've missed any humps, bumps, and ridges.
* Then, making sure all dust is gone from the area, I brush a hazy coat or 2 of primer onto the patches, feathering-out to nothing.
* Now I spray the orange-peel texture on, feathering-out a quick spiral.
* Then the WHOLE WALL is primed when the text. is dry.
* Repairs are now COMPLETELY sealed-off. Now the paint won't show ANY variance in sheen, assuming you're putting on an even coat(s) with good tools.
* I've just done our M-Bath this way. I can't find a flaw...ANYWHERE...even where towel-bar holes were patched!!

Faron


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

silverado said:


> Oh no, I think that could be the problem then! I thought using the primer in the paint would take care of that! I know you have to prime after doing repairs, but I thought the primer in the paint would do it. Does it sound like if I go over it, I will make it worse? Thanks!


how do you seperate the "primer" from the paint?:whistling2:


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

You have been suckered in perfect fashion by the primer and paint in one marketing hype. Ain't not no such thing. Once you prime, you should be fine. Drop HD a thank you note.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

mustangmike3789 said:


> how do you seperate the "primer" from the paint?:whistling2:


If you had ever bought and used a primer and paint in one product you would not ask a stupid question like this.:furious:

True primer and paint in one comes in cans with lids on both sides. If you open and stir the can with label facing up you are painting and only paint can get on your brush or roller. If you turn it over and open and stir from the other side you are priming. What's more if you pay a little extra for the PREMIUM product you do not have to use a brush or roller at all. You just set the stirred can, either paint or primer side up and it self applies to ceilings and walls. Just leave it in the middle of the room overnight. :thumbsup:


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

Thankyou everyone! I now know to not spend extra money on paint with primer, cuz it dosen't do what they made it sound it will do. I wish I would have done my own research first, rather than listen to the advertising at the store. I have to say it did sound believable, and there are other companies whose paint claims to do the same thing, like Glidden and Clark and Kensington. Is it too late to go over it with a primer now in those areas and repaint?


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

It's interesting to me that virtually every paint manufacturer sells Paint & Primer In One. Are they doing that simply for sales?


I've only used Primer & Paint In One on one occasion. 4 years ago I built a garden shed in my backyard in the fall, and was running out of good weather. In fact, when it came time to paint, I had a beautiful Saturday before bad weather was supposed to set in. So, being in a hurry, I used the all-in-one stuff. I was surprised by how nicely it applied, and though 4 years really isn't an adequate test of its longevity, it still looks perfect. I'm pleasantly surprised.


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

A person learns by asking questions. There are no stupid questions here


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

DrHicks said:


> It's interesting to me that virtually every paint manufacturer sells Paint & Primer In One. Are they doing that simply for sales?


Yup. And deep down they know better. And at least intellectually, so does the consumer. 

Come on. How could you possibly put the appropriate solvent based sealer/primer or primer/underlay in with an acrylic semi-gloss finish?

But psychologically the DIYer just does not want to hear they should use an appropriate primer and two coats of paint for a real paint job when they want to crank out start to finish in a day using a bag of $5 brushes and a $2 roller cover/handle and pan.

And you are correct Hicks, BEHR may have started it but all of them have joined the P&P in One parade now. Actually I am not sure Benjamin Moore has yet but certainly all consumer and box store levels of Sherwin Williams have. 

Remember not that long ago when every company offered "superior one coat coverage" and people bought it? It is what the consumer market wanted to hear. Same marketing approach and goal with P&P in One. Just different rhetoric.

Sadly, as the OP points out, the marketing hype don't not never work out so well as promised. Maybe at the end of the day, and not to be overly cynical, it comes down to who cares the final result so long as $20 was saved on primer and paint. Hang the picture of grandma a little lower on the wall to cover blotchy spots.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Now would be a good time for REAL paint companies to take advantage of this ridiculous paint-and-primer-in-one fiasco & market REAL primer and then paint to get a quality looking paint job. Selling separate primer and paint is surely more lucrative to a paintstore than the joke of P & P in one. I don't get it.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

silverado said:


> A person learns by asking questions. There are no stupid questions here


If you are reacting to my comment to Mustang Mike? I suspect he spotted that I was joking. :yes:


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

sdsester said:


> If you are reacting to my comment to Mustang Mike? I suspect he spotted that I was joking. :yes:


For sure. I can detect sarcasm as well as I can dish it out.


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

LOL, I thought you were talking to me! Anyway, I should have done that research myself, cuz I did question that, but didn't check further. I learned a lesson, and won't be suckered again! I had talked to the clark kensington guy at the store, when I went to Ace hardware, and he said always use a good regular primer over repairs, before you do any paint with primer. The primer with the paint, just helps the paint to adhere better, and covers better. Always start out with a good primer, say in a new house he said. Thankyou everyone!:thumbsup:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

"Self-priming" means it will effectively seal a patch on the first coat and not be visible after the second coat. And ltd had it right, you will not be able to touch up with eggshell and not have it be noticeable. You'll simply exchange one defect for another. I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. IMO, flat would be have been the better choice.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

jsheridan said:


> I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. *IMO, flat would be have been the better choice*.


That must be a bit of a regional thing. I'm not a painter, so I certainly don't see as many walls as you do, but it seems to me that I rarely (if ever) see flat paint "round these parts." Semi-gloss trim, with satin or eggshell walls. Kitchens & bathrooms almost always have semi-gloss on both walls and trim.

Interesting...


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> "Self-priming" means it will effectively seal a patch on the first coat and not be visible after the second coat. And ltd had it right, you will not be able to touch up with eggshell and not have it be noticeable. You'll simply exchange one defect for another. I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. IMO, flat would be have been the better choice.


I don't have the problem with appropriate products claiming to be "self-priming" (e.g. floor paints) that I do with any claiming to be primer and paint in one. 

Also remember with higher sheen acrylic latex paints that they take 30 days to surface cure.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Hey, let's be honest here, you can have SUCCESS with the all in one paints..............just not in every instance. For example, I would never, ever use it to coat new drywall. I don't think I would ever use it in a harsh exterior environment either. All that being said, sure, in a pinch I would use it where conditions are decent enough that you may not need that superior professional finish.


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## silverado (Mar 17, 2012)

In our area over the years, it seemed that satin became the popular sheen for bedrooms and living rooms, etc, and I remember being talked into semi-gloss for bathrooms especially, and sometimes kitchens. I never liked semi-gloss, so I did everything in satin, going back maybe up to 15 years ago. When we built our house in 1987, we used flat in the bedrooms and living room, and den. I hated that flat paint, but I did because at that time our budget was very limited and we bought a too cheap brand of paint. Lots of lessons learned over the years on paints and primers.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Now would be a good time for REAL paint companies to take advantage of this ridiculous paint-and-primer-in-one fiasco & market REAL primer and then paint to get a quality looking paint job. Selling separate primer and paint is surely more lucrative to a paintstore than the joke of P & P in one. I don't get it.


I am a paint purist. It's one of my many character flaws. I really don't like "gimmicky" products or marketing schemes when it comes to painting. The companies I work with have kinda the same philosophies regarding product... But, having said all that, here's the funny thing about paint manufacturers - We're really good at servicing existing markets and providing products to serve a specific or particular need...What we're not really very good at is creating demand for new products...and, as long as I'm kinda slamming manufacturers, I might as well say we're also not very innovative either. 

I had to say all that to lead into this...Products that are listed as Paint and Primer in One, are not just relabeled old formulations. They are a different process and will provide better penetration, and to a degree, have a better ability to "seal" a partially porous surface without the use of a conventional primer. This "process" was actually introduced to paint manufacturers, by resin manufacturers, as a step-saving product primarily targeted to the DIY market. Does it work? Yup...sometimes. But, as you all know, it doesn't work near as well as a separate prime coat followed by a separate finish coat. So, part of this product is Marketing BS...and the other part is new technology. 

As I said earlier though, as manufacturers, we're not particularly innovative or creative...and the only reason so many companies have now come out with a P&P product is because the market wants one - and they're not horribly bad products - albeit their product capabilities are sometimes over stated. Over time, they'll improve - just as Direct-to-Metal finishes have become a viable part of a company's product offerings. DTM finishes will never provide the same amount of corrosion resistance as will a 2 step prime and finish app, but they do work on properly prepared surfaces in non-extreme environments - just as P&P products will.

As a purist, and an old-schooler, I sometimes have problems with corner cutting ideas. But the market too often times seems OK with a "good enough" system instead of a "best" system. 

You wonder why REAL paint manufacturer don't market a real system involving primer then finish? They've been doing that for years...think of Zinsser, Insl-X, Masterchem Industries, XIM, and others - they made their name known with their specialty primers, some have even entered the arena of finish products (with varying degree of success or acceptance). One of the companies I work with has over 30 different specific primers in their price list...and this is a tiny, tiny company. 

But in today's world of limited resources, volatility of raw materials, increasing government intervention, increased liability and protection from liability, changing demands from the market, new and changing paintable surfaces and on and on, all manufacturers must shave their number of offered SKUs wherever possible. If one product will work in a number of applications, why continue with 2 or 3 add'l products that essentially, kind of do the same thing? Now couple that with a market that's saying they want less products to choose from (less confusion), and apparently are willing to compromise a little on the finished performance, is it really any surprise that a manufacturer sees this as an opportunity to kinda slay 2 dragons?

Believe me, manufacturers are just as frustrated as are those who take this business seriously. We follow demand. I work with contractors and focus groups constantly to determine the best products to take to market, that will both serve a need and return a profit to the company. Ultimately, we (all paint manufacturers) end up going with what the market tells us they are willing to buy.


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## Will22 (Feb 1, 2011)

Well put, Rick. There is a tendency to play "follow the leader" in marketing products. This exaggeration only creates unrealistic expectations from consumers who never wanted to conduct proper surface preparation or cleaning in the first place. They try to apply an accent red color over a pastel prior painted surface, and are livid when it does not cover in one coat (which is explained on the product label, but they prefer the hype over the substance). Self-priming paints (usually premium products) have claimed this in product literature for some time, but not as blatantly as it is at the present time. There are several substrates where this is possible (it is still a two-coat application), but there are other circumstances where using a primer is preferred.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Will22 said:


> Well put, Rick. There is a tendency to play "follow the leader" in marketing products. This exaggeration only creates unrealistic expectations from consumers who never wanted to conduct proper surface preparation or cleaning in the first place. They try to apply an accent red color over a pastel prior painted surface, and are livid when it does not cover in one coat (which is explained on the product label, but they prefer the hype over the substance). Self-priming paints (usually premium products) have claimed this in product literature for some time, but not as blatantly as it is at the present time. There are several substrates where this is possible (it is still a two-coat application), but there are other circumstances where using a primer is preferred.


So true....so true.


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

ric knows . i agree with your post ,except that it was told to me by a s/w manager that super paint will start having on its label, paint and primer in one .he rolled his eyes and said its the same paint as always but now it says it on the label. is this true? who knows . lucky from years of experience i know when to prime and when its not necessary.but i can tell you this many of my clients buy into it hook line and sinker, when they hear that man from big orange wit his trusting voice tell you its a paint and primer in one ,witch means fewer coats :huh: i look forward to reading your posts


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## Mr. Paint (Nov 10, 2011)

Just one thing: If your patch doesn't match the surface profile, it will always show, regardless of coats of primer and paint. Prime the offending area now, let it dry and see if it shows. Like the first comment made, maybe it needs sanded...


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

ltd said:


> ric knows . i agree with your post ,except that it was told to me by a s/w manager that super paint will start having on its label, paint and primer in one .he rolled his eyes and said its the same paint as always but now it says it on the label. is this true? who knows . lucky from years of experience i know when to prime and when its not necessary.but i can tell you this many of my clients buy into it hook line and sinker, when they hear that man from big orange wit his trusting voice tell you its a paint and primer in one ,witch means fewer coats :huh: i look forward to reading your posts


I could be dead wrong - I have been before, but I do believe there are some manufacturers out there that have probably done that very thing - relabeled an existing coating and called it Paint & Prime in One, without any reformulation at all...I don't think so with Sherwin Williams though, and here's why - While Sherwin has been as guilty as any manufacturer in using a little license when extolling the benefits of their products (e.g lifetime warranty, etc.), they are also regarded as on of the true industry leaders when it comes to innovative product design and push/pulling themselves, and others, to accommodate new and developing trends within this industry. I think they would have more to lose than gain by pulling off such an easily identified and bone-headed marketing stunt. Plus, they've already introduced this technology in their Dutch Boy line (perhaps other SW brands too), which I believe to be a different formulation than other DB products - so they've had some field testing and results from this new idea...

Check out the following link from the Rhom & Haas Paint Quality Institute:

http://www.paintquality.com/paint-professionals/newsletter/pdfs/0308newsletter.pdf

In this article Rhom & Haas, one of the world's largest resin producers, have addressed this new paint/marketing "sensation". Not only do they speak of the difference in formulation, they address the apparent success of at least some of the products labeled as P&P, then forecast the future role of P&Ps...Interesting.

What surprises me more than anything is the lack of info and education, from all participating manufacturers, to their employees and their customers as to why (and how) they have placed such a confidence in a system that seems to be antagonistic to conventional thought (just as in the case that you've described with the SW manager).


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Mr. Paint said:


> Just one thing: If your patch doesn't match the surface profile, it will always show, regardless of coats of primer and paint. Prime the offending area now, let it dry and see if it shows. Like the first comment made, maybe it needs sanded...


That's exactly right Mr. Paint. That would be a texture flash. When you apply joint compound to a wall, you alter the texture so that the patched area differs in texture, surface profile, from the surrounding area, and it reflects light differently. There is nothing that can be done to eliminate that. Painting is partly about playing tricks with light, but that's one trick it won't fall for. Even with a flat, in the right lighting situation it'll trip you up. We've had this discussion here a couple of times, and the possible solutions to overcome it are entertaining, though fruitless, they are fun to watch.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

ric knows paint said:


> I could be dead wrong - I have been before, but I do believe there are some manufacturers out there that have probably done that very thing - relabeled an existing coating and called it Paint & Prime in One, without any reformulation at all...I don't think so with Sherwin Williams though, and here's why - While Sherwin has been as guilty as any manufacturer in using a little license when extolling the benefits of their products (e.g lifetime warranty, etc.), they are also regarded as on of the true industry leaders when it comes to innovative product design and push/pulling themselves, and others, to accommodate new and developing trends within this industry. I think they would have more to lose than gain by pulling off such an easily identified and bone-headed marketing stunt. Plus, they've already introduced this technology in their Dutch Boy line (perhaps other SW brands too), which I believe to be a different formulation than other DB products - so they've had some field testing and results from this new idea...
> 
> Check out the following link from the Rhom & Haas Paint Quality Institute:
> 
> ...


ric, your words on this thread are well thought, written, and to the point. Good job, you're a valuable contributor here. 
I've been harping on this P&P as well, as many of you know. I'm old school, but I'm open to technological advances. I've never totally believed that it's pure marketing hype, a sham product. I've used it a few times, Behr and BM Aura, both over bare drywall with great results. And I've experimented with SW Duration on bare wood outside, results not yet determined, coming this spring. I would never risk something so blatant if I didn't have some faith in their word. 
I don't doubt that the technology is possible, and I, like you, don't believe that a rational company, even Behr, would gamble with that much liability and reputational damage. It would be devastating. There has to be something there. That said.
My biggest problem with the whole thing, as you stated, is the lack of education, especially to the contractors. The focus of an article I wrote Paint vs. Primer , was the homeowner/DIY. That market segment is unaware of the multitude of available primers, their wide range of purposes, and which situation calls for which primer. Primers are an entire subject area, yet the homeowner thinks primer is a primer is a primer, and they could easily be led into thinking the primer in the can will be sufficient for their needs. I hammer anybody I can get access to in the paint cos about this. IMO, merits of the products aside, they did an extremely poor job of rolling it out and the whole marketing campaign, pr strategy, was a failure. The fact that we've been, as pros, debating it this long is the proof. 
Thanks for the article, I'll read it with great interest.

The article, now read, was exactly what I was looking for, real tested examples. Nice.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> We've had this discussion here a couple of times, and the possible solutions to overcome it are entertaining, though fruitless, they are fun to watch.


 
i hate you... lol, jk!




Faron79 said:


> * Now I spray the orange-peel texture on, feathering-out a quick spiral.
> 
> 
> Faron




i should have bought some of this stuff for my last project! it's funny how a little spot covering can turn into an entire 3x3 foot area to blend correctly :furious:

so basically after getting a good looking ceiling painted on the 3rd try... i accidently got a bright white 3D blotch of primer on the ceiling, next to the crown. SOB! so i went to whip it, BIG mistake! not only did i alter the fine texture, I continued to whip reducing the white pigment. i was left with a 3" grey spot... i should have left the damn spot alone, then come back and gently sand or scrape away the botch. yea, i'm learning real fast!!


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

Yeah...regarding the texture-spray-

If your orange-peel texture is small, run the can under hot water for a minute! This is stated on the can, but "what GUY" reads directions...LOL!

I had the little dial turned all the way to "Fine", but droplets were still a tad too big. Then I remembered seeing this tip on the can.
Worked like a charm!!!
Droplets came out a lot smaller.

Some of the "bursts" I use are maybe a half-second....some may be 3-5 seconds if feathering-out over more spots/bigger area.

But again...I use the "tight spiral" outward pattern. Just barely move your hand/wrist, but make a quick spiral. Have your "spiral' going JUST b4 pulling the trigger.

DON'T use Left-to-Right patterns! If part of the overlap gets too heavy, the eye will pick up these slight "linear" differences. Your eye will never see it in a curved/spiral pattern.

Faron


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

unfortunately i notice and see everything... it's a SIN i tell you!!

i've done this cover up in phases so far... i used a 3" felt roller, then went back and added extra stipple with a brush. i checked on it this morning and from certain angles you don't see it. you only see the variation when it's back lit at night with the can lights ON in the kitchen. so i'm really tempted to just leave it, because it would be rare to only have half the lights on in the back room. 
my other option is to go back over the 1x1 area with my 18" roller, a quick small blend, but i fear messing with it will only make things worse :furious:

i don't think buying a $14 can for my blotch would work out to well, at this point i'll leave it or roll it one more time. cool stuff though, just saw it at Lowe's on my break.


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## S. LEWIS (Apr 6, 2012)

Does it seem like 25yrs ago latex paint covered better than it does now.. I think so.....


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## rimce (Apr 6, 2012)

It needs another coat or two.

---
Painters and Decorators in Catford


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

The paint and primer in one works when the whole surface is already painted or all completely bare, the first coat "primes" and the 2nd coat finishes (I know some people swear it's no good, but I've used a couple times and actually like it). Wall repairs always need to be spot primed and then painted separately. Good idea is to stipple the primer on the repairs with the tip of your brush, leaving a slightly bumpy surface, to build up the area's thickness and add some orange peel-type look and feel to match the rest of the drywall. If you don't, the repair spots will show because the paint isn't as think there, leaving the area with a thinner coating of material, causing light to reflect differently.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

pucks101 said:


> The paint and primer in one works when the whole surface is already painted or all completely bare, the first coat "primes" and the 2nd coat finishes (I know some people swear it's no good, but I've used a couple times and actually like it). Wall repairs always need to be spot primed and then painted separately. Good idea is to stipple the primer on the repairs with the tip of your brush, leaving a slightly bumpy surface, to build up the area's thickness and add some orange peel-type look and feel to match the rest of the drywall. If you don't, the repair spots will show because the paint isn't as think there, leaving the area with a thinner coating of material, causing light to reflect differently.


 
ANY paint will do the same thing:yes:, Paint and primer in the same can is nothing but marketing hype that HO's buy

http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

chrisn said:


> ANY paint will do the same thing:yes:, Paint and primer in the same can is nothing but marketing hype that HO's buy
> 
> http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer


You keep saying that, and yet it's out there and it works. The reason why you're wrong here is simple. A "paint and primer in one" will not stipple out a flat spot, or dull down a shiny spot, aka wall repairs, like a regular primer will because it levels and covers like a paint. Regular paints on bare surfaces can take 3-4 coats. This "paint and primer in one" technology assures you that you will only need 2 coats on bare surfaces, it doesn't advertise that you're supposed to use it as a spot primer, I'm not sure why some people swear there is "no such thing" when clearly there is. I like the argument about being a marketing ploy for homeowners. Are professional painters not also homeowners? Using your theory I could also say all paints are the same, there's no such thing as a premium paint, so just buy the cheapest one, its just paint. But you know that's not true. The difference is in the solids and additives. So why can't the solids and additives also make some paints better self-primers?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

pucks101 said:


> You keep saying that, and yet it's out there and it works. The reason why you're wrong here is simple. A "paint and primer in one" will not stipple out a flat spot, or dull down a shiny spot, aka wall repairs, like a regular primer will because it levels and covers like a paint. Regular paints on bare surfaces can take 3-4 coats. This "paint and primer in one" technology assures you that you will only need 2 coats on bare surfaces, it doesn't advertise that you're supposed to use it as a spot primer, I'm not sure why some people swear there is "no such thing" when clearly there is. I like the argument about being a marketing ploy for homeowners. Are professional painters not also homeowners? Using your theory I could also say all paints are the same, there's no such thing as a premium paint, so just buy the cheapest one, its just paint. But you know that's not true. The difference is in the solids and additives. So why can't the solids and additives also make some paints better self-primers?


 
what ever


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

I kind of got off track arguing with a couple of the guys on here, but I do know there's a difference between a real "primer" and a "paint and primer in one". I think the "paint & primer in one" is really just better self-priming paint (vs older latex paint), because the technology has improved. 

I'm adding this in now because I don't want DIY'ers on here looking for advice to see my in-jest argument posts and think there's a legitimate argument out there saying that self-priming paint is a substitute for using a primer when a real primer is needed. I do think there are circumstances when this type of paint will do a great job, but there are just as many, if not more, situations when a real primer is needed, and this post started with a situation where a real primer was clearly needed.


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