# Stone veneer meets siding...flashing?



## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

Hey, this spring I want to tackle installing stone veneer around our poured concrete foundation. The basic installation seems pretty straight forward. But I'm having problems finding information about flashing. As you can see in the pic I've attached, I have a couple foundation walls that are out of the ground quite a ways. What do I do about where the siding and stone will meet? Is there any flashing that needs to be done, or some sort of transition piece? Once the stone is installed it will stick out farther than the siding so I'm afraid of standing water. How about the windows? How do I flash around those and then install over the flashing? Love this forum, you all gave been a great help in the past!


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

Flashing is an absolute. I think if you look on buildingscience.com you will find details similar to what you need to do. Are you in a cold zone? That exposed concrete is going to suck the btu's out, and it may be worth installing 2" of rigid foam outside while you are at it. Here is a link for window flashing on greenbuildingadvisor.com. Poke around there, too. http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/pan-flashing-choices-windows-and-doors


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

You certainly need to install an aluminum flashing, or something similar, behind the siding/starter-strip/Tyvek above. I would recommend using a sill at the top of the wall as well.


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

I talked to the stone dealer and I am going to run a sill between the stone and siding. ...I understand placing the flashing underneath the starter strip but do I bend it near the bottom and adhere it to the top of the sill or do something else with it?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Once you see how far the stone is going to pertrude away from the wall you will have a better idea on how it's going to have to be done.
Most often a 2 X 4 set in a bed of silicone on the stone to 2 X 4 area that's nailed to the wall with a 45 deg. angle cut at the top will act as a form for the coil stock sit againt.
I make it 4" at the top where it's going to be under the siding then the 2 45 deg. bends to get to fit tight againt the 2 X 4 then at least 1-1/2 past the stone with a hem at the bottom to keep the metal from waving along it's lenght.
DO not face nail the coil stock if you do it may buckel. Instead the top first bend is bent so it causes the metal to be sprung tight to the 2 X 4 and oval holes get punched so the coil stock can move instead of buckling.
The only places it may need to be nailed is on the ends.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

just hold the stone sill down alittle from the siding,what exactly will the flashing be protecting?concrete?


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

I didn't even think of flashing til I started doing some research but I'm under the same impression as you were. The siding overlaps the concrete foundation about an inch. But if I install a sill, can water still find it's way in between the sill and siding? I can't imagine there would be a lot of standing water finding it's way under the siding when the sill is beveled for the purpose of diverting the water away. Am I right in assuming this? I dont want to do something wrong and pay for it down the road


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i don't see the need for any metal if you maintain a 3/4-1'' gap between the sill and the siding


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

And how would that keep water from getting in behind the stone and poping it off when it freezes.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Vinyl siding is in no way waterproof and you should/must have a primary water barrier behind it to protect the wood. Make sure the flashing from below comes up and is behind the primary barrier to continue to shed the water down and away. Then you can shed the water and assume the stone is durable.

Water will always find its way behind vinyl, especially due to the wind and "fluttering" during a storm. - It is just hung on the framing. Mold inspectors love to see vinyl siding and the more jogs and windows, the better for them because it is so predictable.

Dick


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

Joecaption, I think I understand the process you stated earlier on how to build a water table. I could do the 2x4 work but would need to contract out the sheet metal stuff. I don't know how much that would start costing me.... But if I used a stone sill or even a stone water table, I would tuck the flashing underneath the siding/wrap but where would the bottom of the flashing go? Just enough flashing to lay on top of the sill to keep water out? Does it need to be secured to the sill somehow?...I'll attach a really rough drawing of how I'm interpreting doing the flashing. My art skills are not a strong suit


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

concretemasonry said:


> Vinyl siding is in no way waterproof and you should/must have a primary water barrier behind it to protect the wood. Make sure the flashing from below comes up and is behind the primary barrier to continue to shed the water down and away. Then you can shed the water and assume the stone is durable.
> 
> Water will always find its way behind vinyl, especially due to the wind and "fluttering" during a storm. - It is just hung on the framing. Mold inspectors love to see vinyl siding and the more jogs and windows, the better for them because it is so predictable.
> 
> Dick



not the issue here Dick


i think inspectors like to see it because it's so much easier to remove the siding than most others

install any other reservoir type cladding with the same type of underlayment details and tell me what you will see


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

joecaption said:


> And how would that keep water from getting in behind the stone and poping it off when it freezes.



stone sill detailed right should do it


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

The thing I do not like about a stone ledge is the fact it would be near impossable to seal on the topside, see if it's possible to set it at about a 5% angle like on a brick sill.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

concretemasonry said:


> Vinyl siding is in no way waterproof and you should/must have a primary water barrier behind it to protect the wood. *Make sure the flashing from below comes up and is behind the primary barrier to continue to shed the water down and away.* Then you can shed the water and assume the stone is durable.
> 
> Water will always find its way behind vinyl, especially due to the wind and "fluttering" during a storm. - It is just hung on the framing. Mold inspectors love to see vinyl siding and the more jogs and windows, the better for them because it is so predictable.
> 
> Dick


THIS is the most important part, as I mentioned earlier. Make sure the aluminum flashing is BEHIND the WRB (Tyvek or similar product) so that it does not send needless moisture behind the cultured stone & create more issues.




heinlein0311 said:


> Joecaption, I think I understand the process you stated earlier on how to build a water table. I could do the 2x4 work but would need to contract out the sheet metal stuff. I don't know how much that would start costing me.... But if I used a stone sill or even a stone water table, I would tuck the flashing underneath the siding/wrap but where would the bottom of the flashing go? Just enough flashing to lay on top of the sill to keep water out? Does it need to be secured to the sill somehow?...I'll attach a really rough drawing of how I'm interpreting doing the flashing. My art skills are not a strong suit


You've got the right idea there. You will want to bend the flashing at about a 2" top leg, then bend ~70-75 degrees so it exerts constant pressure on the stone sill, then ~ 1.5" with at least a hem at the end to strengthen it. If you have access to a brake, it's extremely easy. I'm just a "Dumb" mason, and I bend them up all the time.

As for the sill, We most often use Indiana Bedford stone sill material that is 2.25" thick by 3" deep. We can get lengths up to 8', so it really minimizes the joints, making it look more realistic IMO. You'll also want to set the sills at a min. 10% pitch away from the house, 15% is even better if you can get them to stay.............. :thumbsup:


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

I have inspected hundreds of homes with mold/water problems and the major causes are the window installations (estimated 65% improperly installed), flashing (anywhere) or a combination of the two. It is surprising how many builders have window certified installation subcontractors instead of their own carpenters install windows because of history and insurance liability. - It is only a 2 day class and test to become certified.

Some people recognize the need to ALWAYS shed the water away in every part of a wall even if the initial concern is to prevent freezing expansion or leakage since that is just an excuse to justify bad workmanship on a singular problem that could grow to be worse in the future.

Dick


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> THIS is the most important part, as I mentioned earlier. Make sure the aluminum flashing is BEHIND the WRB (Tyvek or similar product) so that it does not send needless moisture behind the cultured stone & create more issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post Joe but that would be 110- 115 degrees. :thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

keep the 2 systems separate,works on the top of your chimney:yes:

but if you feel the need,i would pull the first 2 courses,then flash

watch the height of the sill,you need to maintain enough room to lock the panel back [about 3/4''] into the starter or you will need to j it

pressure bends over time can ''lose'' pressure from expansion and movement


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

How do I go about getting the sills at a good pitch and getting them to stay?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

kwikfishron said:


> Good post Joe but that would be 110- 115 degrees. :thumbsup:


Here's my thinking: If it's 180 degrees when you start, and put 70-75 degrees bend into it, it ends up at 110-115 degrees...... :thumbsup:




heinlein0311 said:


> How do I go about getting the sills at a good pitch and getting them to stay?


They should wedge fairly easily if you have the flashing in place, and you only leave about 3" from the top of stone to the highest point in the flashing. We typically lay cultured stone from the top downward to minimize mortar-dropping stains on lower stonework, and doing so also gives us a better selection of thicker stones at the top of the wall, which helps support the sill also.

You can also look into the matching cultured sills/watertables that most every manufacturer makes, as the back of them installs square to the wall and the top has the pitch built into it.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

don't pre install the flashing you will get better results removing the siding and flashing directly on to it,the vinyl is easy to r&r,pull enough so you can loosen up the corners and get decent bends
seal and interlock the seams

i would install some clips to help keep the metal tight to the stone

sorta like this but nailed to the wall

if your going to do it do it nice:wink:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

.......


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

What do you mean by don't pre install the flashing? Do you mean install the stone ledge (watertable/sill) first and then the flashing?.....as I was doing more research I've found where others have installed weep screen at the bottom. Is this something I need to consider? I planned on landscaping with mulch so the stone wouldnt be in direct contact with the ground/dirt but would be with the mulch


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

yes,you will get better results....but that would just be my opinion

the weep hole thing i would defer to the masons/concrete guys


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Tom's probably right about installing it afterwards, but Im sure he's a perfectionist.....:thumbsup:

If you install it later, you'll need to remove enough siding that you can temporarily mount at least a 2x2 to wedge the top of the sill to.

As for the weep screed, it won't help you one bit unless you were to install a drainage plain against the entire foundation, which means you would also have to install lath & plaster over it. It's much simpler to just adhere right to the concrete.


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks a lot guys, it's starting to make a lot of sense now. I pulled a piece of vinyl siding off the starter strip, looks like I'll have enough room to put up a temporary 2x2 for a wedge, I like that idea....1 more question and I'll let u all get on. After the watertable stone is installed should I have someone with a break do the flashing? Or is it possible for me to put the flashing up and leave enough at the bottom to fold along the crease of the wall/watertable?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

your going to flash the entire top of the sill?

how i would think you would do it is to temporarily fasten a 2x to the foundation the height of the sill plus grout line,run your stone up to this then remove the 2x and lay an angled bed of mortar then set your sill

i don't understand how you can properly tool the joint behind the sill and inbetween if you pre install the flashing


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> Tom's probably right about installing it afterwards, but Im sure he's a perfectionist.....:thumbsup:
> 
> If you install it later, you'll need to remove enough siding that you can temporarily mount at least a 2x2 to wedge the top of the sill to.
> 
> As for the weep screed, it won't help you one bit unless you were to install a drainage plain against the entire foundation, which means you would also have to install lath & plaster over it. It's much simpler to just adhere right to the concrete.



jo this is why i questioned flashing the sill,couldn't the sill actually be the flashing? wouldn't the stone and poured foundation actually be monolithic so the grout between the stone sill and foundation be adequate?


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> jo this is why i questioned flashing the sill,couldn't the sill actually be the flashing? wouldn't the stone and poured foundation actually be monolithic so the grout between the stone sill and foundation be adequate?


This is what I always thought and was trying to avoid the while flashing process. But the main concern is water running down the back of vinyl siding and the flashing is to divert that water over top of the stone so that it doesn't get behind the stone and cause the stone to pop off. Am I right in that assumption?...,,,now that being said I contacted my builder who built my house last year to get his take on it and he says he doesn't flash in this situation. He says the stone and mortar will naturally soak up water and the amount of water that will get behind the wall from not flashing is minimal....any truth to that?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i don't know but if the masonry pro's on here say flash it,then flash it

i don't like it when Dick yells at me:no:


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> jo this is why i questioned flashing the sill,couldn't the sill actually be the flashing? wouldn't the stone and poured foundation actually be monolithic so the grout between the stone sill and foundation be adequate?


It depends on where the OP lives somewhat, because the joint between the sill and foundation is certainly susceptable to leakage. If located in a high freeze-thaw region, any excess moisture migration behind the stone is never good. Add in the fact that both types of sill mentioned (by me) so far are extremely absorbent, and draw the moisture from the mortar out quickly during installation, and a hairline cracks are bound to exist in the joint.


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

I live in southwest Virginia. We don't get huge freezing spells here but it does freeze once in a while


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

I've been looking around for flashing and was wondering what size you all think. I would like to get some flashing or trim coil in a clay color to match our trim but most if it is 24" wide. I was thinking i needed it 6 or 8" wide. The only thing I can find with that width is aluminum or galvanized steel with a mill finish. Not very attractive if you ask me....I did find some vinyl flashing with the right width and color but Is that a no-no for my type of application? Any feedback would be appreciative


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

you can use painted aluminum for that,me? i would keep the bend on to the stone no wider than 1 1/2'' hemmed and cleated and up the wall atleast 4''


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

That's pretty close to what I was thinking of doing. .....I was just reading on how to use a sheet metal brake.... I've heard the term "painted aluminum" in some research I was doing but haven't seen to much about it. I was looking for flashing or trim coil that matches my trim. Is that the same thing or something different?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

wow ...me doing it for 35 years and you just reading about brakes and we come up with the same idea:thumbup:

go where the siding came from and ask for a roll of clay


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

I found this handy dandy picture, that's where I got my idea


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

she's a beut:thumbup:


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

Nice picture but you are better of using limestone instead of brick for the cap.
Limestone cap has a grove on the underside preventing water from running down the wall.

Ask any bricklayer and he will tell you the same thing.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

he's using stone:wink:


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

so what...he can still use limestone for the cap ,no ?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i believe he said he was using a stone sill George...ask any bricklayer


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

Here go i found something similar online....


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

Tom this is what i was referring to...

just instead of brick he's going to finish of top of the wall with the siding.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

George*RLCC said:


> Nice picture but you are better of using limestone instead of brick for the cap.
> Limestone cap has a grove on the underside preventing water from running down the wall.
> 
> Ask any bricklayer and he will tell you the same thing.


They don't always have a drip-edge sawed into them. As a matter of fact, it's quite rare to see that hear in residential sills. Grindign his own in certainly wouldn't hurt anything though.



Tom Struble said:


> he's using stone:wink:


I thought so to........



George*RLCC said:


> Here go i found something similar online....


That's a little bit different scenario. That's a base flashing at the brickledge with "Quadra-vents" for the weep holes. He won't really need either in this situation, seeing as it's thin veneer.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

:wink:


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

George*RLCC said:


> Tom this is what i was referring to...
> 
> just instead of brick he's going to finish of top of the wall *with the siding.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

What I'm planning on using is a "man made" stone watertable ...I'm running flashing underneath the siding/weather barrier and then having the flashing kick out over top of the water table. You saying I need more than this?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

heinlein0311 said:


> What I'm planning on using is a "man made" stone watertable ...I'm running flashing underneath the siding/weather barrier and then having the flashing kick out over top of the water table. You saying I need more than this?


You'll be fine, as most cultured sills I've seen already have a drip-edge cast into the bottom of them. Nothing more needed............ :thumbsup:


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

No you dont need more , thats all in good order ,you just need better.
You need to saw a drip edge on bottom of the whatever is overlapping the stone.
And if i was the one doing this job i would replace thin aluminum coil with 20-22 ga galvanized flashing.
Thin coil wont stay in place right, it needs to be bend so it presses down on the sill-cant do with thin stuff.
Also don’t use silicone caulking use OSI or 9000 solar seal


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

cleated back to the wall will hold it tight,galvi? not sure i would go with any flashing there that could stain


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## George*RLCC (Feb 23, 2012)

It will stain cedar but not stone-limestone.


Siding guys love that 0.019 coil... Tom ...what kind of coil is that that you can cut it with a box cuter ? :laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

thats the stuff:thumbup:,but if you do it right it's fine

but maybe some of the commercial roofing steel sheet would be a better choice....depends

and there is always stainless


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i'm still not buying that masonry can't be installed on to a poured foundation without metal above it,but i like to play:thumbup:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

how ya been Ron?


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## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

What you need is a sealant applicator to professionally caulk the joint between the foundation and the precast ledge, as well as the joints between the individual pieces. This will be a defense against wind driven rain and negative pressure infiltration. It will also shed away any water that gets on the wrong side of the WRB due to solar drive. Then the flashing can be applied as another line of defense.:thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

why caulk? seems to me stone veneer cemented to a poured foundation would be monolithic,wheres the movement that would require a flexible sealant?


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## loneframer (Mar 27, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> why caulk? seems to me stone veneer cemented to a poured foundation would be monolithic,wheres the movement that would require a flexible sealant?


I'm not as concerned about movement as I am with freeze/thaw. There's also a chance of bulk water being trapped and possible hydraulic pressure, however slight it may be. Damp veneer = algae growth. Keeping it dry on the inside means quicker drying cycle on the outside.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> how ya been Ron?



Been fine Tom :thumbsup:……buried in work again….finely….can’t keep up. :clap:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

send a little this way:wink:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

loneframer said:


> I'm not as concerned about movement as I am with freeze/thaw. There's also a chance of bulk water being trapped and possible hydraulic pressure, however slight it may be. Damp veneer = algae growth. Keeping it dry on the inside means quicker drying cycle on the outside.



got it:thumbsup:,
it's just i thought a grouted angled stone sill applied to a concrete foundation would be able to do this independently of any metal or sealant

but no mason am I:no:


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

loneframer said:


> I'm not as concerned about movement as I am with freeze/thaw. *There's also a chance of bulk water being trapped and possible hydraulic pressure, however slight it may be*. Damp veneer = algae growth. Keeping it dry on the inside means quicker drying cycle on the outside.


:yes::yes::yes:


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

ok ok i'm not a hydraulics expert


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Could the OP leave a 1" gap between the stone veneer and the concrete wall? 

Wouldn't the concrete wall be (already below grade) waterproofed first?

Wouldn't the flashing metal tuck under the WRB behind the vinyl and (or under the mudsill) extend* a little *onto the sloped (pitched) stone to run the water from above that point out at the top the stone?

Why need sealant at the top inside of pitched stone if the whole veneer is open air space behind. Solar drive would drain in the air space, and out below.

There wouldn't be any hydraulic pressure if built with an air space and the concrete wall wouldn't get wet to diffuse water inside. You don't want/need a poly vapor barrier below grade. You wouldn't need a WRB behind the stone. You wouldn't get freeze-thaw with an air-space. If in a high moisture area and wanted extra protection, just set the veneer off with a mat; read "Conclusions" pp.9: http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...sive_Ventilation_Water_Resistive_Barriers.pdf


http://www.insulation.net/uploads/pdf/Kinzler DELTA brochure.pdf

A good read for stucco/stone with OSB or plywood: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-029-stucco-woes-the-perfect-storm

Hope this gives you some ideas (food for thought).

Gary


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Gary, 

The 1" airspace is good for a real stone veneer, but the OP is looking to install cultured stone. He could obviously create a rainscreen system behind it, but it would be a ton of work for minimal benefit.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

see,turned out to be a fun informative discussion:thumbup:


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## heinlein0311 (Nov 14, 2011)

It's been a while since I started this project but I finally got it done and used most of ya'll advice. I bought a roll of trim coil, rented a brake and bent some flashing and the installed it under the siding and behind the weather barrier. I than used a water table stone under it with a built in drip edge. The extra cost was about $1000 compared to not having anything to divert the water. Well worth it for peace of mind. Adhering the stone wasn't to bad, time consuming as all get out but well worth what I saved doing it myself and I couldn't be happier with the results. Here's some pics, thanks for all the help


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