# Switch crossed? Turn on one, a different one goes off...



## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello folks, I have a wiring problem that I think I finally want to tackle. The house is a ranch house, built in '54. In the kitchen, there are 3 different switch banks. One side of the room turns (1) on/off the main kitchen light. One by the sink (2) turns on the light above the sink. And 2 switches by the back door (3) (4) which turns on/off the main kitchen light and one that turns on the outdoor light.

Check out the diagram. This is how it is supposed to work:












Instead, if you turn on the main light with switch (1), you can turn it off with switch (4) but then you can't turn it back on with switch (1). Also, if you turn on switch (2) above the sink then you turn on switch (3) for outside, it turns OFF the light at switch (2) above the sink. 

So something is buggered up. Is this something simple or do I need to rewire something completely?


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## psilva8 (Jan 12, 2012)

Check to make sure your travellers are connected correctly on the switches and in the light box. Do you have a good understanding of how 3 way switched work?

As for the other problem, any way of describing how things are wired in the boxes?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Open all the boxes and tell us how all the wires are connected. Do not take anything apart at this point. Make sure to identify which cable the blacks, reds and whites are coming from.
The first problem with 1 and 4 switches could be simply the wrong wire on the common screw but since one switch is in a box that has other issues there could be something else.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

So switch #3, which controls the on/off of the outside light, will sometimes turn off the light above the sink if the light above the sink is on?

Will switch #3 ever turn ON the light above the sink??


As far as your other problem with switch #1 and #4 with the on/off of the main light, like psilva8 said thats just the wrong wires hooked up to the travelers and common terminal of the 3-way switches.

Take the cover plates off the switches, unscrew switches, leaves wires attached to switches, pull switches out of box and take some photos and post.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> So switch #3, which controls the on/off of the outside light, will sometimes turn off the light above the sink if the light above the sink is on?
> 
> Will switch #3 ever turn ON the light above the sink??


It is not sometimes, it is always. If I'm doing dishes and the light is on above sink, wife lets the dog out and turns on the switch at the door and I'm in the door. Every time. Switch 3 only turns on the light above the sink IF the switch is left in the on position.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you so far guys. I'll try to get pictures with the plates off tonight.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Please read post # 3 and respond.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

joed said:


> Please read post # 3 and respond.


Yes, thank you. I will! Either tonight or Sunday.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> It is not sometimes, it is always. If I'm doing dishes and the light is on above sink, wife lets the dog out and turns on the switch at the door and I'm in the door. Every time.


I have read it 20 times. I do not know what you mean by "and I'm in the door"


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> I have read it 20 times. I do not know what you mean by "and I'm in the door"


Sorry about that. It should read, "and I'm in the DARK". Lights out! :laughing:


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## todd electric (Feb 3, 2012)

*Todd Electric*

It sounds like there are a few things that are mixed up. Try this.
1- Remove face plates and switches. Make sure that the proper type of switch is used at each location. Sw1 & sw4 should be 3-way switches. These will have four terminal screws, one green for ground, one dark color and two light color. Sw2 & sw3 should be single-poles. These have three terminal screws, one green for ground and two similar colored screws.
2- Check the wire connections. With all of the wires disconnected from the switches and separated, there will be one wire that remains energized. It will probably be located at the #3 & 4 location. This wire will be connected to the dark screw on the 3-way and either of the similar colored screws of the single-pole. At the same location, there will be two wires that go from there to location#1. You can determine which wires they are using a continuity tester. These will be connected to the light colored screws on both 3-way switches. There will also be at least two other wires at that location. One will go to the light outside. Touch each of these wires to the energized wire and the one that turns on the outside light will be connected to the remaining screw on the single-pole switch #3. The remaining wire(s) will be connected to the energized wire with a proper splice. This will bring power to sw2 and will be connected to one of the similar colored terminal screws. There will be at least one other wire at location #2. Touch each of these wires to the energized wire and connect the one that turns on the sink light to the remaining screw on the switch. Any other wires at that location will be connected to the energized wire with a proper splice. With all of the other wires connected there will be at least one wire left at location #1. Of the two wires connected to the light colored screws on sw1, one will be energized. Touch the remaining wire(s) to it and determine which one lights the kitchen light. Connect that wire to the dark screw on the sw1.

That should do it. I hope. Todd Sailor


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

joed said:


> Open all the boxes and tell us how all the wires are connected. Do not take anything apart at this point. Make sure to identify which cable the blacks, reds and whites are coming from.
> The first problem with 1 and 4 switches could be simply the wrong wire on the common screw but since one switch is in a box that has other issues there could be something else.


I will ask again.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, I have pictures. Also, My diagram is labelled wrong. Switch 3 and 4 are located the opposite to what it shows on the diagram but that is irrelevant. We can use those same numbers for description purposes. 

Here is switch #1





























Switch #2



















Switch #3 (looks upside down compared to the others)


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Switch #4


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## powerfactor (May 7, 2011)

switch #1 seems to be missing a wire. :yes:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Switch one is using the red wire in the plug in hole.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

Sounds like incorrect wiring !
Switch 4 is probably wired downside of switch 1,
some one probably tried to get a three way arrangement
with out knowing the correct way to wire it !

And switch 3 sounds like it is also wired wrong !
How many wires are there on switch 3 ?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> Ok, I have pictures. Also, My diagram is labelled wrong. Switch 3 and 4 are located the opposite to what it shows on the diagram but that is irrelevant. We can use those same numbers for description purposes.



Q:the switch you have labelled as #3 in post #13 is the switch that controls the outdoor light and the switch you have labelled as #4 in post #14 controls the main light?

Q:Look on switch #1 and verify that the red wire is pushed into the back of the switch.

Q:Is there any other switch, maybe in a garage or outside somewhere, that controls the same outdoor light that switch #3 controls?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Do the photos below accurately depict the way you have the switches labelled in your 1st post?


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

joed said:


> Switch one is using the red wire in the plug in hole.


Correct. There is also a black wire in the plug in hole behind the black wire that is wrap around the screw.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Do the photos below accurately depict the way you have the switches labelled in your 1st post?



Yes Hammerlane, that is exactly right. Thank you, why didn't I think of labeling it? :laughing:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Q:Is there any other switch, maybe in a garage or outside somewhere, that controls the same outdoor light that switch #3 controls?

Also can you post a photo of the back of switch #1? 

Or make sure that the red wire is "backstabbed" into the slot connected to the screw terminal that does not have a wire under it.

ACtually you should remove that red wire from back of switch #1 and place it under the empty screw terminal


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Q:Is there any other switch, maybe in a garage or outside somewhere, that controls the same outdoor light that switch #3 controls?
> 
> Also can you post a photo of the back of switch #1?
> 
> ...



No, there are no other switches that control #3. 

I should have time to move the red wire tonight. 

Thanks.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> No, there are no other switches that control #3.
> 
> I should have time to move the red wire tonight.


Just as a note, moving the red wire to the screw terminal is not going "fix" anything circuit-wise. You will still have the switching issue until the wiring is traced and figured out. But most would agree it is better to have a connection under the screw terminal than backstabbed into the device.

Switch #3(controlling the outdoor light) appears to be a 3-way switch and it does not need to be one. 

Also would it be hard for you drop or hang the "main" light fixture and take photos of the connections there? I'd like to see where that red wire from switch #1 is terminating or being wire nutted.

Do you understand the basics of a 3-way switch? On your switches 1 and 4, which are 3-way switches, the black terminal on each is called the "common" terminal. One of the "commons" should always have power to it and the "common" of the other switch should be connected to---in your case----the light.

The other two terminals....brass in color... on the 3-ways are called "travelers". They connect to each other. Meaning one "traveler" on switch #1 connects to one "traveler" on switch #4. And the other "traveler" on switch #1 connects to the other "traveler" on switch #4. Doesn't matter which to which.

And of course the ground should be attached to the green ground screw of each switch.

A very simple configuration is shown below:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> Correct. There is also a black wire in the plug in hole behind the black wire that is wrap around the screw.



Wow....just fully read and looked at the photo again and sure enough there is another wire backstabbed into the common terminal of switch #1.

hustler: unfortunately you have a lot of wrongs going on that may be too difficult to trace on a forum. Whoever diagnoses this will have to see whats going on at the fixtures also. But we can try.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Just as a note, moving the red wire to the screw terminal is not going "fix" anything circuit-wise. You will still have the switching issue until the wiring is traced and figured out. But most would agree it is better to have a connection under the screw terminal than backstabbed into the device.


Yes sir, that is what I understood. I'll get that switched.



hammerlane said:


> Switch #3(controlling the outdoor light) appears to be a 3-way switch and it does not need to be one.


Should I replace the switch? 




hammerlane said:


> Also would it be hard for you drop or hang the "main" light fixture and take photos of the connections there? I'd like to see where that red wire from switch #1 is terminating or being wire nutted.


Sure, I should be able to do that. Do you want similar pictures from the light above the sink?



hammerlane said:


> Do you understand the basics of a 3-way switch? On your switches 1 and 4, which are 3-way switches, the black terminal on each is called the "common" terminal. One of the "commons" should always have power to it and the "common" of the other switch should be connected to---in your case----the light.
> 
> The other two terminals....brass in color... on the 3-ways are called "travelers". They connect to each other. Meaning one "traveler" on switch #1 connects to one "traveler" on switch #4. And the other "traveler" on switch #1 connects to the other "traveler" on switch #4. Doesn't matter which to which.
> 
> ...


Yes, makes complete sense with that diagram. Thank you.



This all could have been avoided if the home inspector found this 3 years ago when we bought the house. He did find one similar problem in the dining room. Same thing, 3-way switches didn't work properly. 

Once I get all of this figured out, we will move to the living room. I think those problems will be harder to figure out so we will talk about that later on. 

Thanks again!


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Wow....just fully read and looked at the photo again and sure enough there is another wire backstabbed into the common terminal of switch #1.
> 
> hustler: unfortunately you have a lot of wrongs going on that may be too difficult to trace on a forum. Whoever diagnoses this will have to see whats going on at the fixtures also. But we can try.


That wire is newer (obviously) than the rest. It was replaced shortly after we moved in. We had to add an extra receptacle and that switch was updated. My brother was the mastermind there. I believe he said a different type of romex needs to be used for 3-way switches. He wanted to replace the wire at the door at the time but I had to move onto another project. Does that sound correct at all? 

The good news in all of this (I think) is that the fuse panel is directly below the kitchen and the floor joists are exposed. So if we need pictures down there, it should be relatively easy to do.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> That wire is newer (obviously) than the rest. It was replaced shortly after we moved in. We had to add an extra receptacle and that switch was updated. My brother was the mastermind there. I believe he said a different type of romex needs to be used for 3-way switches. He wanted to replace the wire at the door at the time but I had to move onto another project. Does that sound correct at all?
> .


So he grabbed the power for the "xtra receptacle" off the power to the 3-way switch?

Another question: did switch #1 and #4 work properly until your brother did some rewiring?

What about the switching for the sink light? Did it work properly until your brother did some rewiring?


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> So he grabbed the power for the "xtra receptacle" off the power to the 3-way switch?
> 
> Another question: did switch #1 and #4 work properly until your brother did some rewiring?
> 
> What about the switching for the sink light? Did it work properly until your brother did some rewiring?


I don't think he piggy backed the power. I am pretty sure we put in a new circuit in the breaker. 

All of the problems existed before we did anything with that switch. That is why he wanted to replace the wire that was at the other switch.


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## psilva8 (Jan 12, 2012)

You have quite the confusing situation here. I will not try to derail hammers problem solving but I will offer a few more questions.

I have looked at these pictures quite a bit, and although I am not an electrician, I find it fun trying to diagnose these problems.

First thing, I assume the power provided to the circuit comes in the switch 3,4 box.

If #3 only controls the light outside then it is wired incorrectly with the wrong switch and the extra black wire is confusing to say the least.

I suspect switch 2 is wired to a traveller terminal on switch 3.

It would be extremely helpful if you described in detail the wiring inside the box.

Additionally, I can see from looking at the pic that #4 receives power to the common screw and then uses a separate 12-2 (using the black and white as travellers) to go to the light (presumably). Therefore my guess is the light gets neutral from somewhere else in the circuit (I may be completely off base but this is a confusing situation).

I suspect in this situation the travellers are wired incorrectly at the light fixture.

You may be able to rectify this situation, but an explanation of the wires in the boxes and the light would be helpful.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

psilva8 said:


> You have quite the confusing situation here. I will not try to derail hammers problem solving but I will offer a few more questions.
> 
> I have looked at these pictures quite a bit, and although I am not an electrician, I find it fun trying to diagnose these problems.
> 
> ...


Yes...switch #3 should not be a 3-way switch and I agree with your statement of the connections made at the light fixtures need to be explained or shown. Also a picture of the inside of the box that houses switch #1 would be helpful.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Regarding switch #2 for the sink light: 
Are there only 2 cables(or 2 black wires and 2 white wires) coming into the switch #2 box kind of like the below diagram.

If so, one of the black wires attached to the switch is your always hot wire, the other black wire attached to the switch is the "switch leg". The "switch leg" becomes hot when the switch is flipped to on. Ideally the other end of the switch leg should affix to the light. Like the crude diagram I show.

Is there a way you can figure out if the switch leg from the switch is going directly to the light?

NOTE: the always hot wire may be going to the bottom terminal of your switch #2, not the top terminal like my diagram. In that case the top black wire would be your switch leg. If you have a meter you can check which black wire is your always hot wire.


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## psilva8 (Jan 12, 2012)

^^^

Hammer: Because the OP said this " Instead, if you turn on the main light with switch (1), you can turn it off with switch (4) but then you can't turn it back on with switch (1). Also, if you turn on switch (2) above the sink then you turn on switch (3) for outside, it turns OFF the light at switch (2) above the sink. 

So something is buggered up. Is this something simple or do I need to rewire something completely?"

Do you suspect that the "always hot" wire for switch 2, is coming from a traveller terminal on switch 3? This would explain why the light controlled by switch 2 would only work when switch 3 is in a certain position.

Also, I believe that the OP's problems are 2 different problems unrelated to each other. What I just described above being one problem and the improper wiring of the travellers for the other problem. Do you agree with this?


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Regarding switch #2 for the sink light:
> Are there only 2 cables(or 2 black wires and 2 white wires) coming into the switch #2 box kind of like the below diagram.
> 
> If so, one of the black wires attached to the switch is your always hot wire, the other black wire attached to the switch is the "switch leg". The "switch leg" becomes hot when the switch is flipped to on. Ideally the other end of the switch leg should affix to the light. Like the crude diagram I show.
> ...



2 black wires are the only ones attached to the switch. There are more wires in the box since it shares the space with a GFCI receptacle. Perhaps that has something to do with the problem? 

I'll test the test the hot wires and see which is which. I'll also look at the wires leading to the light to see if I can tell which is which. 

I'll also take pictures of the GFCI out of the box. 

I'll try and get as many pictures that I think will help, and I'll label them to make it as easy as possible for you. 

:thumbup:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

psilva8 said:


> Do you suspect that the "always hot" wire for switch 2, is coming from a traveller terminal on switch 3? This would explain why the light controlled by switch 2 would only work when switch 3 is in a certain position.
> 
> Also, I believe that the OP's problems are 2 different problems unrelated to each other. What I just described above being one problem and the improper wiring of the travellers for the other problem. Do you agree with this?


I agree two separate problems. The switch 1 and 4 dilemma and the switch 2 and 3 dilemma. You suggest the power to switch 2 could be originating from a traveler on switch 3? 

Hustler: 

When u turn the sink lite on(switch 2) and then turn the outdoor lite on(switch 3) the 
sink lite goes out correct? 

If you then turn the outdoor lite(switch 3) off, does the sink lite go back on?

1.Use your meter and with sink lite off and outdoor lite off, determine which black wire for the sink lite(switch 2) is "hot". 

2. Turn the outdoor lite on(switch 3), now the sink lite should be off. Check the same black wire in step #1 and see if it is still "hot"

Ive attached picture of switch 2 and labelled the terminal/wires so you easily describe which is always hot.


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## psilva8 (Jan 12, 2012)

hammerlane said:


> I agree two separate problems. The switch 1 and 4 dilemma and the switch 2 and 3 dilemma. You suggest the power to switch 2 could be originating from a traveler on switch 3?
> 
> Hustler:
> 
> ...


 
Yes I suggest this because it explains the extra black wire on the 3-way switch (which should be a 2 way)

The other thing that is very confusing is what is that black wire backstabbed to the common terminal on switch one. The OP says it has something to do with a new receptacle, but also says the new receptacle comes off a new circuit.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

psilva8 said:


> The other thing that is very confusing is what is that black wire backstabbed to the common terminal on switch one. The OP says it has something to do with a new receptacle, but also says the new receptacle comes off a new circuit.


It is a little confusing when he states:
that wire is newer (obviously) than the rest. It was replaced shortly after we moved in. We had to add an extra receptacle and that switch was updated. My brother was the mastermind there. I believe he said a different type of romex needs to be used for 3-way switches. He wanted to replace the wire at the door at the time but I had to move onto another project. Does that sound correct at all? 

I don't think he piggy backed the power. I am pretty sure we put in a new circuit in the breaker. 
All of the problems existed before we did anything with that switch. That is why he wanted to replace the wire that was at the other switch. 

When people refer to "the wire" and "that switch" and "the other switch" it gets real hard to guess which wire and which switch they are referring to. Thats why it is sometimes easy to label items in the photos so that when you say, "that wire" others are know which wire "that wire" means to you.

We'll try and help hustler out though.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> I agree two separate problems. The switch 1 and 4 dilemma and the switch 2 and 3 dilemma. You suggest the power to switch 2 could be originating from a traveler on switch 3?
> 
> Hustler:
> 
> ...


Yes to both questions.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes, this is all confusing, I apologize.

I got stuck working on taxes last night so I didn't have a chance to check things out. I'm not sure what day this week I will have time to do anything. 

However, when I do get time, I'm going to document all the different wires and label all on the pictures so it is easier for everyone to understand. 

Thanks again for your time!


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, what a mess. I tested all the switches with a voltage pen and labeled all of the pictures. Hopefully you can follow this and hopefully I didn't mess up my notes. I wasn't able to check the wires at the lights. Hopefully I can do that this weekend. 

I'm also hoping that I didn't miss any scenario with the switches.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Lets try and start with the sink lite. Since its a single pole switch should be easiest to decipher.

Regarding the sink lite switch, #2. Looks like terminal "A" is your switch leg. Meaning that wire around terminal "A" is connected to the light. SO therefore the wire at "B" needs to ALWAYS be hot. But as it is now, it looks like the wire at "B" is somehow being fed off of switch #3.

just to verify:

Q:In your photo 2A, is terminal "B" hot at all times EXCEPT when the outdoor lite, controlled by switch #3, is on?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

In this photo you have labeled FROM SWITCH #1, Is it the cable I have circled that is from switch #1 or are any of the others from switch #1?

Is the way the cable I have circled appears in the photo the way it actually is. Kind of dangling like that?

On the same photo, you are arrowing to the bare ground wires as being HOT. Is this correct?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You should replace the box you installed for the future splice. It is too small.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Lets try and start with the sink lite. Since its a single pole switch should be easiest to decipher.
> 
> Regarding the sink lite switch, #2. Looks like terminal "A" is your switch leg. Meaning that wire around terminal "A" is connected to the light. SO therefore the wire at "B" needs to ALWAYS be hot. But as it is now, it looks like the wire at "B" is somehow being fed off of switch #3.
> 
> ...


Correct.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> In this photo you have labeled FROM SWITCH #1, Is it the cable I have circled that is from switch #1 or are any of the others from switch #1?
> 
> Is the way the cable I have circled appears in the photo the way it actually is. Kind of dangling like that?
> 
> On the same photo, you are arrowing to the bare ground wires as being HOT. Is this correct?


The wire circled is the only wire coming from switch 1. I was incorrect earlier about it being tied to its own breaker. It is currently just hanging there our of the way. Originally, we were going to try and figure this whole mess out a while ago so we just left it out of the junction box. 

The ground wire seemed to be hot. Or at least the voltage pen lit up and beeped when I touched it. The only wire that didn't light up and beep is the white wire.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> You should replace the box you installed for the future splice. It is too small.


Thanks, no problem. I can do that. :thumbup:


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

hustler: to remedy the sink lite issue you have to find out where the wire connected to terminal "B" in photo 2A "ends" at. By "end" I mean where its next junction point is after terminal "B" in photo 2A.
Where ever this location is you need to connect that end of the wire to AN ALWAYS HOT WIRE.

It does appear the the end of the wire is affixed to one of the terminal at switch #3.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> hustler: to remedy the sink lite issue you have to find out where the wire connected to terminal "B" in photo 2A "ends" at. By "end" I mean where its next junction point is after terminal "B" in photo 2A.
> Where ever this location is you need to connect that end of the wire to AN ALWAYS HOT WIRE.
> 
> It does appear the the end of the wire is affixed to one of the terminal at switch #3.


Ok, I understand. Now, how do I find that wire? Lol. Is there a device that I can use? I picture being able to kill the circuit at the breaker, then use some type of meter and touch it on one wire and touch it to another wire to complete the circuit to locate the same wire.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You could use a toner to trace the wire.

After turning off the power you could also insert the end of the conductor into an extension cord. Now with a multimeter check for continuity between the prong and the unknown wires around the room. When you find the correct end you should get a tone.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> You could use a toner to trace the wire.
> 
> After turning off the power you could also insert the end of the conductor into an extension cord. Now with a multimeter check for continuity between the prong and the unknown wires around the room. When you find the correct end you should get a tone.


Is the toner the same thing as the "voltage pen" that I have been using? How safe is it to stick a wire into one of the holes on an extension cord? Do all the wires have to be disconnected from the switch before I do that? 

Sorry for being so ignorant. I don't want to find anything out the shocking way, if you know what I mean.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> Ok, I understand. Now, how do I find that wire? Lol. Is there a device that I can use? I picture being able to kill the circuit at the breaker, then use some type of meter and touch it on one wire and touch it to another wire to complete the circuit to locate the same wire.


 


no1hustler said:


> Ok, I understand. Now, how do I find that wire? Lol. Is there a device that I can use? .


Toners can be expensive. Jim has a good idea with the extension cord or this:

Do you have a multimeter that you can test Ohms with. Testing for Ohms you can also test for continuity between conductors.

-Look at the meter pictured. Do you have or can you borrow one?
-You would set it to test for ohms. 
-TURN BREAKER OFF TO CIRCUIT
-Take all wires off the terminals on switch #3
-Undo the wire attached to terminal "B" in photo 2A.
-Attach or touch either the black lead from the meter or the red lead from the meter..doesnt matter which...to the wire attached to terminal "B" in photo 2A.
-Touch the other lead of the meter to one each of the wires you detached from switch #3
-when the needle on the meter moves toward infinity, you have found the other end of the wire.

This will be easy if the switches are close together. If they are far apart you will need a "jumper" piece of wire attached to one of the leads of the meter to span the distance.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Great, I do have access to a multimeter. I'll let you know what I come up with.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

no1hustler said:


> Great, I do have access to a multimeter. I'll let you know what I come up with.


Make sure the power is off to both switches in case they're on different circuits.

When you discover which wire at switch 3 is the other end of the wire at switch 2, then the end of the wire at switch 3 needs to be connected to AN ALWAYS HOT WIRE.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Regarding the last set of photos on post 40. You indicate the bare grounds are HOT. How did you check this.

If you check with your meter between A and B or A and C you should get close to 120V. But if you check between B and C you should not get any voltage.

The bare ground should only carry current in the event of a ground fault. If it is carrying current all the time there is something dangerous going on.

Double check this as above.

Also if that red loose wire is always HOT, at least put a wire nut on it until you can get in in a box.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Regarding the last set of photos on post 40. You indicate the bare grounds are HOT. How did you check this.
> 
> If you check with your meter between A and B or A and C you should get close to 120V. But if you check between B and C you should not get any voltage.
> 
> ...


I used the voltage pen and touched the wire. I'll have to check it out again when I get the multimeter. The red wire definitely needs a wire nut, I agree.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> hustler: to remedy the sink lite issue you have to find out where the wire connected to terminal "B" in photo 2A "ends" at. By "end" I mean where its next junction point is after terminal "B" in photo 2A.
> Where ever this location is you need to connect that end of the wire to AN ALWAYS HOT WIRE.
> 
> It does appear the the end of the wire is affixed to one of the terminal at switch #3.


Ok, this problem is now resolved. I traced that one wire and hooked it up to an always hot wire. Both switches work independently from each other. Thank you!


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> Regarding the last set of photos on post 40. You indicate the bare grounds are HOT. How did you check this.
> 
> If you check with your meter between A and B or A and C you should get close to 120V. But if you check between B and C you should not get any voltage.
> 
> ...


Now to this hot mess. 

I tried testing the voltage and came up with some odd (to me) readings. 

From your picture in post #54. Wires A to B reads 123.6 volts. Wires A to C gets 44.5 volts. And B to C is 71 volts. As far as I know, I was using the multimeter correctly. 

Does any of that makes sense? 

Also, I took a picture of the wiring at the kitchen light and everything seems to be fine. 

The black wires are hot and the white/brown wires are not.










Video of it being tested: http://s718.photobucket.com/albums/ww188/stray15/?action=view&current=VID_20120217_181123.mp4


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## hawkeye11 (Feb 11, 2012)

First of all, why are the conductors coming through the center ring on the mounting bracket? This is a very easy way to cut into the insulation of the wires and create a dead short. Instead, you should bring them to one side and then tuck them back into the box to adequately protect them. 

Secondly, the voltage readings you provided relative to ground are curious. Does the wire from the ceiling actually have a bonding conductor or not? Did you just simply attach the bonding wire from the fixture to the mounting bracket?


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

It would seem that wire C which should be ground, is NOT !
the reading across A & B is correct,
as it is hot and neutral.
But the readings with respect to C, which should be ground 
are NOT correct !
I would guess your earth wire, is not in fact connectted to earth,
and / or your system is NOT bonded correctly.
This is the only thing that explains your readings!
Because if earth is bonded to neutral as it shoild be,
then the reading from A to C should be close to full mains.
And if the neutral is bonded, then there should be almost nothing
from B to C.

check your earth wires !!!!
they should go back to the main board.
Do they ???
and your bonding also !!!


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

hawkeye11 said:


> First of all, why are the conductors coming through the center ring on the mounting bracket? This is a very easy way to cut into the insulation of the wires and create a dead short. Instead, you should bring them to one side and then tuck them back into the box to adequately protect them.
> 
> Secondly, the voltage readings you provided relative to ground are curious. Does the wire from the ceiling actually have a bonding conductor or not? Did you just simply attach the bonding wire from the fixture to the mounting bracket?


The light was there before me. I did not doing anything to the light. I just took pictures for diagnostic purposes. I have no idea what a bonding conductor is.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm thinking I should get some measurements inside this junction box which is where that yellow wire ends up: 










I know there is a ground rod into the ground, I'll have to look into that a bit more.


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

Has my help given up on me?


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## 30Five (Feb 10, 2011)

I've been trying to follow along with this thread, but I'm a little confused at to what your current issue is.

From what I gather, you have fixed ONE of your previous problems by moving a wire on a 3-way switch from the traveler terminal to the common terminal, but you have not yet fixed your issue with switches #1 and #4. Is this correct?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

hustler: in post 56 regarding the sink light (switch 2) and the outdoor lite(switch 3)you said: "I traced that one wire and hooked it up to an always hot wire. Both switches work independently from each other. Thank you! 

so you have remedied switch #2 which controls the sink light? The sink lite does not turn off now when you turn on the outdoor light?

What wire off of switch #3 did you discover was providing power to switch #2?

Are you still using the same switch #3 still as pictured below...meaning a 3-way switch? You do not need a 3-way switch. That can be changed to a single pole switch...like switch #2.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

As far as your issue with the controlling the main light witht the two 3-ways:

Power is either coming into switch #1 or into switch #4. See 2 scenario drawings below. either case you are going to have to do some investigating/testing to see which wires are which.

In the two 3-way switch boxes:

Find out which wire is your always HOT wire. This always HOT wire goes on terminal Q or U of the respective 3-way switch.

Find out which wire connects to the light. This wire goes on the other terminal not used by the always HOT wire, Q or U.

Then make sure the wire connected to "T" connects to either "P" or "R" then the wire from "S" connects to the remaining terminal of switch #1.


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