# Any way to splice joists together?



## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a 10'x10' kitchen I want to remodel. The entry off the living room is through an opening in a load bearing wall. The far wall is an exterior wall. You would think that there would be joists spanning this 10' from load bearing wall to exterior wall, BUT, there is an "extra" beam 4' from, and parallel to, the entry wall. The joists from the living room extend over the entry wall beam to about a foot past this extra beam on the window side. the joists coming from the window wall are about 8' long and end about 2 feet past this extra beam on the entry side. I need to get rid of this extra beam for the kitchen renovation. My original plan was to try to sister the joists coming from the window wall with full length joists which would span to the entry wall beam. But I just wanted to ask...since I have about 2 feet of joist overlap, is there any splice plate product which I could simply anchor to and through this overlap, to get both joists to act as one? I am pretty sure the physics don't allow for that kind of thing, but I thought i would ask before I went the sister route. Any other suggestions are very welcome! Thanks.


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

pictures?

there are lots of ways to splice joists and i bet the physics of it would surprise you.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

I have no idea what you are talking about, plan, plan, plan please, or at the least a sketch.

Andy.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Here is a quick sketch of a reflected ceiling plan. You can see the overlap of the existing joists over the "extra" beam. I would ideally like to splice those ends together in place, so they act as a single span, and eliminate my need to sister them. The proposed sister joist is shown hatched. I should note that this beam is carrying virtually nothing above it. The house is a square box with simple shallow gable roof, this is an outside corner, and there is nothing exotic happening above it that would require a beam...only two layers of subfloor plywood. The house was not always a house, so there may have been a need for it in the past, but there certainly is not now. Plans call for the area above it to become a storage area. Sooo...any creative ideas for splicing these joists together? I appreciate any quick replies in that I will be addressing this issue this weekend. I will try to follow up with more pictures tonight. NOTE: I am going by memory here this morning, so the 18" overlap over the extra beam for one set of joists may be a little less. It is at least a foot though. Many thanks!


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

showed this sketch to an architect friend of mine, and, though he wanted to see the actual condition, he was of the opinion that I could probably just do 2 rows of 4 carriage bolts, preferably with a 16 ga. mtl plate each side, and some big washers in the area of overlap and splice the joists together without the sister joist. That would be great! Anybody agree or disagree with him? Thanks in advance.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

It would probably be fine but just using 2x6 instead of eights sistered on with 16d nails staggered 8" O.C. would do the trick and be a lot faster I think.

That span of only 10' @12" O.C. would fine with 2X6s. Heck, 2X4 meet the criteria but I would go with 6s.

Andy.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks. The trick is how do I get the sisters up into the space? With that beam there, I can't maneuver the 2x6's to where they need to go. I can't take the beam down and then sister the joist, right? I need to get it in place before taking the beam down. If I can just splice the existing joists together, that makes it easier, I think, though a bit more expensive.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Is the offending beam under the joists or over? Can you remove the lid or you don't want to?
Do you have access to the area above the kitchen and the beam from above?

Andy.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

The beam is below the joists, and I would like to keep the subfloor above the joists intact. I have complete access from below. The space above is wide open, but like I said, I would prefer to not take up the floor. This is why I latched onto the splicing idea.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Wait a minute, there is a second floor above the area?
That would put a different complexion on the problem, is it living space or storage space? 

Andy.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes, the "attic" above will be transformed into living space at some time in the future. Teh area above that kitchen would still be used as a storage room.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Is the wall that has the "opening for entry to kitchen" a bearing wall?
Something doesn't make sense here.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes. That wall with the entry opening in it runs the whole width of the house and, I believe, is a bearing wall. The header of that entry is two 2x12's sandwiched together, which is probably overkill, since the opening width is maybe 7-8' wide. The "extra" beam in my sketch spanned only the width of the kitchen area. There is no beam or bearing wall along its axis anywhere beyond the wall it runs into. I will be doing some more demo tonight, to verify my beliefs


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

If it were me I would demo the lid, make sure the spliced joists were nailed together, cut out the beam and install new 2X8s from below then re-drywall the lid.
Quick and easy, done.

Andy.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I think it is interesting that you are actually getting design suggestions with specific recommendations for sizing without any apparent knowledge of the loading on the beams and joists. You really should get this designed by a professional engineer or architect. Splicing joists is much more complicated than simply nailing them together, replacing the joists may be expensive and complex, and sistering on a joist requires careful detailing of the connections to the existing joists. You are also going to need a permit, which will probably require design plans, and if your town is like my town, the plans need to be stamped by a professional.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Oh come on Daniel, I know you are an engineer but this is pretty straight forward stuff here, conventional construction all the way IF what he posted is correct.

He said 2X8 @12" O.C. with a span of 10' for storage up above? Pretty simple math, well looking it up in the IBC charts. .

Not everything has to be designed by an SE, PE or Architect.



Andy.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

There is probably a good reason why it is configured like that in the first place. When asked if the wall was a bearing wall, the poster seemed very iffy. My two cents would be to verify that the wall is indeed bearing. The rest is pretty simple if it is.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

AndyGump said:


> Oh come on Daniel, I know you are an engineer but this is pretty straight forward stuff here, conventional construction all the way IF what he posted is correct.
> 
> He said 2X8 @12" O.C. with a span of 10' for storage up above? Pretty simple math, well looking it up in the IBC charts..
> 
> ...


That’s exactly why I don’t post on anything here that could be considered structural. 

There are many cases where “straight forward” and “common sense” do apply IMO but obviously aren’t allowed here.

Another reason I want to see pictures, all of them.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

I spoke to the building inspector last week about the job. I explained the beam situation to him and said I would know more when I got the ceiling down. He was good with that. I also explained the scope of the renovation to him and he said he didn't need any drawings. I plan on talking to him tomorrow actually to pull the permit and get his take on the beam issue. I appreciate all the insights offered here though, as it gives me more information and perhaps alternative ideas for solutions. In the end though, the inspector has the last say on things.


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## chrisBC (Dec 28, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I think it is interesting that you are actually getting design suggestions with specific recommendations for sizing without any apparent knowledge of the loading on the beams and joists. You really should get this designed by a professional engineer or architect. Splicing joists is much more complicated than simply nailing them together, replacing the joists may be expensive and complex, and sistering on a joist requires careful detailing of the connections to the existing joists. You are also going to need a permit, which will probably require design plans, and if your town is like my town, the plans need to be stamped by a professional.


 
best advice on this thread.... If you are asking for info off an internet forum on how to do this, then you really need to be asking an engineer, or in the very least consult with your local inspector.

I'm glad to hear you are getting permits for this. Good luck.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Can you follow the load for that extra beam down through the structure to a footing or foundation. I cannot figure out why someone would frame it this way. Maybe they were running short on 12' 2x8s... dunno.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

This space is on the first floor (ground level) of a slab on grade structure, so there is no load to follow through, in terms of posts below it or anything like that. The house wasn't always a house though. It started off life as a flat roofed one storey convenience store on the ground of an old dairy (1950's). Somebody later came and added 3 bedrooms to it, still flat-roofed and one story...then, a previous owner came and added a half a gabled story above, which is our "attic". My guess is that the beam was needed for something in the 50's. Otherwise, there is nothing happening in the perimeter or roof (no odd corners or dormers, etc.) of the house to cause this beam to be here.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

A slab is not designed to carry load everywhere. If that wall was a bearing wall, they would have poured a footer under that location of the slab.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Actually, you should see just how many things you would expect them to have done, which they didn't.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

Here's an idea...I build two temp walls on either side of the overlap to hold up the two sets of joists and then take the beam down. Then I cut the joists to accept a double 2x8 beam in the same place where the old beam was, and in the same plane as the joists, which I connect to the beam with standard joist hangers. The beam bearing points stay where they are, but the beam just moves up into the plane of the joists. No sisters, no bolts. Best solution so far, I think. Comments?


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

tpagel said:


> Here's an idea...I build two temp walls on either side of the overlap to hold up the two sets of joists and then take the beam down. Then I cut the joists to accept a double 2x8 beam in the same place where the old beam was, and in the same plane as the joists, which I connect to the beam with standard joist hangers. The beam bearing points stay where they are, but the beam just moves up into the plane of the joists. No sisters, no bolts. Best solution so far, I think. Comments?



I don't think you ever told us how long the beam is currently. A 2x8 beam is only good if the span is short. I do like the idea of pocketing the beam, but you may encounter some wires up there which could put a wrench in the whole plan. If you decide to go this route, I would probably add an extra ply than what is there now. Call it cheap insurance.


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## tpagel (Jan 30, 2008)

the beam is only about 10' long, and the ply layer sounds like great advice. Thanks.


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