# This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't



## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Rant Alert !! This may be against the rules and if it is I apologize and someone can yank it but I wanted to share some experiences with the trades out there. my intentions are only to point out from our perspective some of the stuff that homeowners go through trying to get stuff done and not intended to insult anyone or the industry.

The below is part of what leads us homeowners to start dabbliing in things we probably shouldn't. 
Issue one...get a quote back today from a company on providing, installing and finishing the drywall and installing the doors. This is not a small job we are talking 2400 sf of ceiling and about 2000 sf of walls. The price came back as follows... 

70 dollars a board to hang and finish - no texture just tape and mud
21 dollars a board for 4 x 12 sheetrock
100 dollars a door to hang the door
140 dollars each for 6 panel masonite hollow core doors 

me...you do know that the sheetrock you are quoting is 9.60 from the local supplier (not big box) 
Him - yes, but it has to be delivered. 
me - ummm they deliver it for free, you know that and I know that and oh btw the doors are only 75 dollars there as well, also delivered free. Can I provide the materials?
Him - no​Okay so we are marking up the materials over 100 percent. I know there is a mark up the materials and I expected that - but over 100%?? I'm not going to start a labor price argument but to suffice it so say this is mississippi and not LA or NY. Labor is not THAT expensive down here. This company calls me daily to find out when they can start so they can order the materials at the above mentioned prices....I haven't responded yet because I would be using naughty words at this point.
Issue two 
Talked with a guy tonight that was supposed to quote a Trane heat pump and ac unit and complete duct re-do that has cancelled 2 days in a row (after waiting a week from the first call) conversation went like this... 

Him - sorry maam I have people with no heat and I need to attend to them
me - do you remember our conversation on what I needed?
Him - Yup have it all written down here just need to get the people with no heat taken care of. 
me - really?? then do you remember the part about where I have NO heat, NO insulation, oh and NO ceilings and I can't do anything until the new unit and ducting is in???
Him - earliest I can be there to meet with you is monday afternoon and then we can set up a time to get you a quote.
me - don't bother.


Issue three.....3 sparkies - 2 no shows and one that "will get to me when he is finished the job he is on' approx 3 weeks (this is just to get a quote) but at least he is honest and setting expectations.
​I'm not an unreasonable person, in fact very patient..to a point. I worked for a builder for a few years so I understand the business and I know life happens but this is pretty much across the board. At $50 a pop for a quote I can't just keep throwing money away trying to get a reasonable quote. We are trying to keep as much of the $$$ locally as we can but wow, I am pretty much banging my head against the wall and contemplating doing some DIY stuff that I shouldn't or hiring people I shouldn't.......must resist looking at Craigslist. 

Companies are screaming for work and are eager for your business but not willing to put the time or communication in to secure it or are way over the top to the point of gouging. 

End rant and again if this is not allowed I will go to the principals office if requred.

That being said. I really do appreciate the input and advice that the trades here give freely on their own time. I have learned a lot over the last few weeks from this group but if this is even remotely like this elsewhere then I'm not suprised that people end up doing stuff they shouldn't.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I think with the weather you have had down there, all the trades are busy and you have had a bit of bad luck in the ones you have contacted. That being said, there is no reason for trade people not returning calls. Myself, I don't understand how they stay in business. You would be amazed( I am) at the number of jobs I get as a result of; "I called 4 painters and you were the only one who called me back"
Unbelievable.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

chrisn said:


> I think with the weather you have had down there, all the trades are busy and you have had a bit of bad luck in the ones you have contacted. That being said, there is no reason for trade people not returning calls. Myself, I don't understand how they stay in business. You would be amazed( I am) at the number of jobs I get as a result of; "I called 4 painters and you were the only one who called me back"
> Unbelievable.


It amazes me as well. But before the real estate bubble burst, it was almost impossible around here to get any contractor to return a call. They were all too busy building spec houses for Dan Ryan and other McMansion builders. I wonder where the're working now? Want fries with that? 

BTY, I'm practically your neighbor. I live in Harpers Ferry.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

It's very hard for a GC to find good quality subcontractors------

It's taken years to line up decent electricians--plumbers and drywall--flooring trades that do quality work at fair and honest prices----

The best source of skilled trades? The other skilled trades you have spoken to-----

Painters know drywall workers----excavators know concrete companies----framers know roofers and window companies----

Ask for referrals from the good trades that you have met---Nice tradesmen know other nice tradesmen----


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

The thing I see in the trades (and some other businesses) is that these people are capenters/plumbers/electricians/painters whatever they are, and they are not business men.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mae-ling said:


> The thing I see in the trades (and some other businesses) is that these people are capenters/plumbers/electricians/painters whatever they are, and they are not business men.


 
good ones are


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

mae-ling said:


> The thing I see in the trades (and some other businesses) is that these people are capenters/plumbers/electricians/painters whatever they are, and they are not business men.


So very true----all to often a tradesman think he is passing up the big bucks that his boss is making on his hard work---

So he sets off on his own without knowing how to sell properly---manage the design--scheduling--managing employees--book keeping--advertising--financing the job and payroll--insurance or any of the dozen items that make a business successful---

The boss makes things happen---not many people can be a boss---


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

"The boss makes things happen---not many people can be a boss"..........

And to think someone once told me a boss was nothing more than a double S OB spelt backwards.....lol ( just having fun)


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That is why I am the boss---I have spel check:laughing:


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## tylernt (Jul 5, 2012)

I hear ya forcedreno2012. We contacted 4 places for gutters, only ONE guy responded so he got the job. The other 3 finally called back weeks later and were bummed I had already hired somebody. Really?

Then there was the plumber -- one with good reviews on Angies List I might add -- we hired that didn't show on the appointed day. He called at the END of the day to explain he wouldn't be there. Thanks for the useful information there, buddy. Then he proceeded to work a couple hours each day and randomly disappear for a day or three. We fired him, paid his bill, and hired someone else to finish his job.

There is a glimmer of hope though... our roofer started on schedule and finished on budget and on schedule and did a good job. He wasn't the lowest bidder, but was worth every penny. Just wish he did plumbing and gutters too. :tongue_smilie:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

As a plumbing contractor, I'd love to tell you some stories about customers- but I'll bite my tongue.
At the end of the day, I just shrug my shoulders and move on...


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## tylernt (Jul 5, 2012)

TheEplumber said:


> As a plumbing contractor, I'd love to tell you some stories about customers- but I'll bite my tongue.
> At the end of the day, I just shrug my shoulders and move on...


Oh, I know we weren't model customers either -- we failed to sign a contract, for one thing. And I had no problem with the work the plumber did... just the scheduling, or lack thereof.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Tyler funny about the gutters I have gutter companies calling me non stop..guess its obvious that we need them when half of them are hanging on the ground. 

Some really great points in this thread on both sides. With respect to customers yeah I'm sure there are some real idiots out there. Someone should write a book about them. Imagine some whackjob reading about themselves in a book. 

I like to think we are some of the good customers...must have done something right, our plumber, tiler and electrician up north are considered very good friends and helped us to christen the man cave we did. I think we had weekly christenings. I think it was the home made cookies but probably more related to the beer from the hubby when done :laughing:

I think communication is the key on both sides. 

mike good point on building the network...we just need to start the network siigh. 

I know we will get through this and I promise NOT to look at craigslist....well not for trades anyway but if the dam electrician doesn't call me back this week I'm going to tech school lol.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

forcedreno2012 said:


> I think communication is the key on both sides.


You nailed it there.

I have been blessed with many great customers. Customers who paid more then asked, who gave my name to others and repeat work. Who waited for me when I was busy and let them know.

Really only had 2 who stand out as bad.
Had another who could have been bad, was bad for other trades. Painters I knew and told me - "talk to her, stroke her ego a little" it worked! My work and their work was perfect. everyone else had nothing but trouble.


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## spotco2 (Nov 11, 2012)

I've been on both sides of the fence. I've hired subs that never showed. I've had horrible customers that I still have nightmares about and a couple of law suits pending. I've tried to get people to come work on things at MY house and it was a nightmare.

First off, yes my company supplies all materials for every job that we do. That way we make sure exactly what we are purchasing, how much of it and what related items that will be needed. Yes we mark those products up on each job and sometimes it's even more than 200% on some items. We tie our money up in product and hope to get paid within 30-90 days from the time we purchase the products. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes it's longer. If we did not mark things up, we wold not have reserves to operate on until other checks come in. We have successfully operated this way for almost 20 years and it works for us.

Some contractors are very good at their trade, but are pizz poor business people. They typically learned and mastered the trade while working for a businessman and thought they could do it all for themselves. However, they have no clue how to manage their money enough so that if they do not have a job for a week, then they can not afford their beer and cigarettes. 

Some are very good at their trade, have excellent business skills but are horrible when it comes to interacting with other humans (customers and employees). They might be some of the best in the trade, but nobody wants to deal with them.

It is rare that you will ever find one that is good at all three things. You'll be lucky to find one that is good at 2 out of the 3.

Then we have our customers. Some are delightful to work with. They know what they want. They have experience dealing with contractors and know how that game is played. They understand that we might be a week out before we can come look at a job because we are busy and not sitting by the phone waiting on it to ring. They know the actual scope of work related to the contractor they are dealing with (they don't ask their roofer to quote finishing sheetrock). They understand the order things have to be assembled and why sometimes multiple contractors have to work together on their schedules to make sure the job is completed with no conflicts. They understand the value of a contractor and are willing to pay for someone that knows what they are doing. These customers are few and far between.

I wont get into the other kinds of customers that we have seen over the years.


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## ZenofBuilding (Nov 19, 2012)

I would like to echo many of the comments above and add:
•	In general I think customer service is dead, and I’m referring to just about every industry. I’m amazed in this economy how many businesses are willing to do so little to take care of the customer.
•	It’s a war of attrition: if you want one price, call five contractors. If you want three prices, call 12.
•	Many contractors work in the business but fail to work on the business.
•	I agree to ask other contractors for referrals. Good electricians will likely know good HVAC subs. Good painters will know good drywallers. Good masons will know good concrete finishers.
•	I would not purchase materials for your contractors to install. If there is a problem down the road, the contractor may try to blame your materials – even if their workmanship is clearly the issue. Also, they may not be as frugal with your materials as with their own, if the materials run short is it because they wasted too much or you ordered too little?
•	Key on spotco2’s comment about the value of a contractor. The low guy is not always the best deal. Do your homework and give (or deduct) points for references, experience, licensing complaints, longevity, litigation/disputes, etc.
•	A large part of issues, besides poor communication, is an inability or inattentiveness to managing expectations. Be realistic, especially about yourself.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

I have always returned customer calls, even if it was to tell them that I was booked months ahead and would give them the numbers of other installers that I thought would do a good job for them.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Go to the supply house and ask the counter men for names of electricians and hvac guys.
I've gotten a few jobs form my supply house.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

rusty baker said:


> I have always returned customer calls, even if it was to tell them that I was booked months ahead and would give them the numbers of other installers that I thought would do a good job for them.


The problem I had is that when i was busy so were all the other decent guys!:thumbup:

Actually said to people. "There are a couple of guys I know who aren't busy, but there is a reason they aren't busy."


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

mae-ling said:


> Actually said to people. "There are a couple of guys I know who aren't busy, but there is a reason they aren't busy."


Good one... 

DM


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

its very hard for TRADES to find good/busy GC's... a DIY'er will always have trouble lining up good subs because we expect trades to be like h*** Depo*, walk in, buy what you want, get it done. trades have to keep their GC's happy and put their GC's (who give them steady work) first. then, due to emergency jobs, change orders, etc, their schedules get all mucked up...

bottom line is keep calling, find one you can build a relationship with and get referrals too...takes time, but it will reward you down the road with faster service.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Very true. Although I seldom subbed myself out.
I had a guy who hired me to completely redo his basement, then his brother had a bunch of work, then his son, Dad and Son both wanted more work done but I decided to change careers. I admit I went out of my way to keep them happy, they were great to work for.
Other people it seemed I was always busy when they needed me for some reason.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

This is one of the reasons why I do everything I can legally do, by myself. 

Most customers are good, honest, paying customers. But not all.
Most tradesmen are good, honest, hard working people. But not all.

Things often get complicated when you're working with people.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Squished said:


> The very first mistake you are making is paying for an estimate. I wouldn't ever consider paying for an estimate on work and if I called someone who asked for me to pay for an estimate, I'd tell them don't bother. .... I had 8 replies come back, ranging from $3150 including taxes to $4900 plus tax. Really, a $2,000 difference? That's all profit and overhead. I wasn't sold on the $3150 guy...
> 
> I'm told I can be brutal to work for (from subs)....


So if you are not willing to pay for the estimate who is paying for it?
Everyone else, that is part (but not all) of the reason for the mark-up.

I probably wouldn't work for you. But you will find those who will.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

There is no such thing as a free estimate - someone somewhere is paying for it. It may not be you, but on another job the person giving you the free estimate has to make up for that lost time.

I do see your point - however the cost incurred by the trade for an estimate usually comes nowhere near the price charged to the customer for it. So if I was busy I wouldn't do the estimate because it is a waste of my time. Better off doing the jobs that I am busy on.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> Why would I pay you for an estimate when if your price is the right one I would pay you to do the job? It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Say you charged $50 for an estimate and you were super busy, knowing full well you couldn't take another job no matter how big or small. What's to stop you from coming and quoting the job, charging me $50 for your estimate only to tell me that you can't fit me in right away after I told you "do it"? Alternatively, you could come and give me an estimate, charge me $50, and give me a ridiculously high price knowing you don't want the work, but collected my $50 anyway.
> 
> ...


Often, if I find out the person is getting 5 or more estimates. I just tell them I'm too busy, and thank them for calling me.


Free estimates don't keep contractors honest. But it does often cause them to cut corners when they price match.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> Why can't people get more than 1 estimate?
> 
> Also, if you cut corners on my house you wouldn't get your final payment. Hard to cut corners when i supply the materials.


They can get as many as they want. I don't care if they get 3 estimates. 5, forget it. No reason for me to waste my time.


You wouldn't know if I cut a corner. Not for sometime down the road. And I would have my money. Material isn't the only thing that a contractor can cut a corner on. 

I don't price match though. But I do charge even more to come and rip out others work, and do it the right way.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> Why can't people get more than 1 estimate?
> 
> Also, if you cut corners on my house you wouldn't get your final payment. Hard to cut corners when i supply the materials. In my book you're entitled to your labor rate and nothing more. I don't pay profit and overhead to anyone. That's reserved for General Contractor's and that's why I'm the GC.



You won't like my back charge for ill timed work because you didn't supply enough, or supplied the wrong type of material.
And why deny a business P&O? The contractor is a business and you are the consumer/home owner. He is entitled to a profit 
Please don't call me for an estimate (and I offer them for free).....


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Mr. Squished---

Some 'estimates' should be free---but a firm quote--??? 

I saw a house this Sunday---My estimate to get it habitable is about $45.000 to $60,000

In order to give her a firm quote---I must take a saw and open up the floor to access the three different crawl spaces----then meet with my electrician--plumber---building department--- 
Roofer---and make a trip to the window supplier---then get quotes on a new hvac system--
Visit the county office to check septic system records---

Then work up a price after I make some blue prints.

Would you seriously do that for free for a complete stranger? You surely aren't that naive---

That is four days work----Wait! Could you do this as a commission only sales man?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> Not knowing me from a hole in the wall, how would you know that i would not know if you cut a corner?
> 
> And you would deliberately cut a corner in someones home that would deliberately cause a problem to the homeowner down the road just to "stick it to them" to make yourself feel like you're giving them what they paid for? Wow....


I wouldn't. but I could cut a corner and you wouldn't know it.

To think you would know if a corner was cut, means you would have to watch everything I do. And know when an how everything has to be done. And I don't believe you know enough even watching me to know if I cut a corner.

When someone wants to supply their own equipment and material, I charge more money for my labor. Why should I make less money because they are supplying their own equipment and material. That would be dumb.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> I'm not denying a business P&O. P&O should be in your labor rate, not a separate charge. I've had people quote me saying my labor is $X.xx and P&O is 15% of the overall job. I don't think so.
> 
> As for materials, there never would be back charges for ill timed work since you'd be the one supplying the material list. You give me a wrong list you're only delaying yourself.


No, you said you don't pay P&O- You said you'd keep it. 
And if you're supplying materials- you make the list- that's the way its done on a labor only contract or I walk. You don't get my estimating skills for free.

As a plumbing contractor, I am supplying you a service, it will have P&O built into the price. You won't know my hourly rate or what I pay for labor or what I paid for material. All you'll get is a bill stating what to pay. Thats all you need.
If you don't like my quote, we can talk about it. But once you sign, you pay the price I quoted unless the scope of work changes


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't quote anything but a complete job----Do you actually find legitimate contractors that will break out materials?

I think you are making this up---have you ever actually hired a contractor?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> That's why I only take quotes in the form of labor and materials separated. If I like your labor quote for the job, I'll offer you the job and supply my own material (if I can get it cheaper). If you won't let me supply materials, have a good day.
> 
> Like I said, I'm a tough person to work for but I pay cash. You'd be shocked at the quality of people I've gotten to work on my house under my terms.
> 
> The economy makes people do funny things (i.e. work for less), and if you (the homeowner) have the green to put into the economy, you'll have all the skilled labor you could ever need and more to get a quality job at an affordable price.


If you have the green- then pay an honest price........


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## Squished (Sep 18, 2012)

TheEplumber said:


> No, you said you don't pay P&O- You said you'd keep it.
> And if you're supplying materials- you make the list- that's the way its done on a labor only contract or I walk. You don't get my estimating skills for free.


I've never done it that way.



TheEplumber said:


> As a plumbing contractor, I am supplying you a service, it will have P&O built into the price. You won't know my hourly rate or what I pay for labor or what I paid for material. All you'll get is a bill stating what to pay. Thats all you need.
> If you don't like my quote, we can talk about it. But once you sign, you pay the price I quoted unless the scope of work changes


I would never sign it. :no:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> That's why I only take quotes in the form of labor and materials separated. If I like your labor quote for the job, I'll offer you the job and supply my own material (if I can get it cheaper). If you won't let me supply materials, have a good day.
> 
> Like I said, I'm a tough person to work for but I pay cash. You'd be shocked at the quality of people I've gotten to work on my house under my terms.
> 
> The economy makes people do funny things (i.e. work for less), and if you (the homeowner) have the green to put into the economy, you'll have all the skilled labor you could ever need and more to get a quality job at an affordable price.


I don't break down my labor. And cash is the same as a check to me. No discount for paying in cash.

Maybe you would be shocked at the quality you didn't get, and don't realize you didn't get it.

Good economy or bad economy, cash money for discount labor doesn't mean your getting quality.

You can supply the material. then I will give a labor only quote, at a much high then normal labor rate. You don't like that price. Thats fine, get someone else.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.
> 
> I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


In my neck of the woods- a handshake and reputation is king.....they speak louder then cash


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

The only thing I install supplied by you is light fixtures and ceiling fans.
I went that route one time and got burned, waiting for the guy to show up with the wire I needed.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

when I downsized and had just me and a helper I did let people supply material. In the form of they set up a charge account and I charged to it. I knew the local lumber yards and my customers knew me and my reputation.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

mae-ling said:


> when I downsized and had just me and a helper I did let people supply material. In the form of they set up a charge account and I charged to it. I knew the local lumber yards and my customers knew me and my reputation.


Same here when it comes to fixtures. I send them to my supply house showroom and I'll honor the warranty- can't stand installing box store plumbing products. But that's a whole 'nother story....


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Lots of more really good points here. :thumbsup:

To explain why we have to pay for an estimate is that it is a fema flood map requirement for a detailed estimate to ensure that you are not going over 1/2 the cost of the house or then you have to raise the house and do mitigation yadda yadda. It has nothing to do with insurance etc but a requirement for the county.

I would never expect to not have to pay for one of these for the level of detail that the government requires. Time is money and my time is not free and neither should yours be, especially for this type of estimate. We are talking a whole house rebuild here. If it were for a replacing a light fixture then I might balk. I just can't keep paying for them.

As for the materials, I know that people don't like like homeowner to provide them and and I understand why, I've heard and read the horror stories. When it comes to fixures and plumbing etc I am more than happy to go the allowance route or use their suppliers and not box stores. What I am absolutely NOT going to do is pay 22 dollars for a 4x12 board of everyday sheetrock that I can get from the same supplier that they use, for 9.50 

There can never be a justification for that kind of markup on this type of material. I used the sheetrock as an example. The markup on the insulation is even worse, same supplier same delivery fees (free). 

I understand that there is a markup, you have to order it, or hold it in inventory etc, or, in some cases go get it, but it should be reasonable. 

If you have to drive to Canada to get something then - yup I would understand that kind of mark up just for the pita factor (and yes I would expect to pay for your time and gas etc) but not on items that are available to be delivered next day from the same place you get them, that are general everyday construction items. 

Let me propose this, If you had to get a base model car delivered would you pay someone double what the car costs from the chevy dealer? I think you would not, for me it is similar. If I am totally missing something here then please educate me (but use small words lol) 

With respects to proffit, I would never want a breakdown between labour or profit, I'm not going to tell you how much I make a year why should you tell me? I understand that quality costs money and have no issue paying for it.

In getting the estimates that we had to that included materials allowed me to see some of this stuff. And I really wanted to understand this. 

As for the no shows, suddenly I have contractors coming out of the woodwork so some forward movement there.

Again thanks for all your responses and thanks for keeping it civil.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

for many the justification for the mark-up is - charge what they can get. In the real world you are not buying the sum of the parts but a finished product so a set of cabinets is not equal to the price of material and labour it is equal to whatever I can get for it.
Now I could never do that but it is what is done in every industry.

I managed a lumber yard for a while and some stuff was marked up 10%, other stuff %200 or more.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.
> 
> I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


You didn't haggle that carpenters price. One guy out of how many.

As fr the quality you didn't get from others. Wait until everything is done. And you slowly find out what you didn't get.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Squished said:


> I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.
> 
> I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


 
and all these"contractors" are quoting their hourly rates???

I don't believe that:no:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Squish--I just don't believe this ----not a bit.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You may think you are running a great show by nickeling and diming the workers and mandating that they make no profit or cover the overhead that all tradesmen have---

But I would be astonished if they aren't ignoring errors made but yourself or other workers----using less than ideal products because you aren't going to cover the costs involved with getting the right stuff.

I once worked for a man who had a similar attitude as you ----I just shut up and watched as his other subs buried subpar work because they would have to eat the expense of doing it right---

Every tradesman makes mistakes and needs to tear out work and re do it---this is part of overhead---and profit----to many mistakes and there is no profit---but a margin of some sort must be in every job----

If that margin does not exist----errors must be left and buried.


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## Squished (Sep 18, 2012)

oh'mike said:


> You may think you are running a great show by nickeling and diming the workers and mandating that they make no profit or cover the overhead that all tradesmen have---
> 
> But I would be astonished if they aren't ignoring errors made but yourself or other workers----using less than ideal products because you aren't going to cover the costs involved with getting the right stuff.
> 
> ...


Hmm, how would they use less than ideal products if I'm providing the materials? That would mean I provided less than ideal products and I deserve everything I get.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

There are time I even 'buy the wrong product' and must go get something that works---

I had a glue problem recently---specs said it would do what was needed---it failed----wall covering needed to be removed--replaced--walls scraped and a different glue used----

Fortunately the materials were provided by the customer on that job so a back charge was used to cover the expense. 

Many ways to get the wrong stuff----studs are a good example----a carpenter will choose the best regardless of cost---a homeowner might go for price and get poor quality----which takes longer to install and yields a second rate job----

A pro tile setter will always insist on his brand and type of setting materials---and may need to change materials depending on the weather and adhesion to the tile----

Easy to need to change materials after the project starts---and easier yet for a homeowner to choose incorrect materials because of unfamiliarity with the products.


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## Squished (Sep 18, 2012)

*Not going to feed the thread troll anymore.*


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Ever hear of a roofer hauling off 4 or 5 sqs of shingles as he was getting paid by the sq and you miss figured? I have a feeling that you had some poor subs or first timers. I sure wouldn't have worked for you.


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## Squished (Sep 18, 2012)

BigJim said:


> Then you must have been a real likeable guy.


That's what they tell me. :laughing:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

forcedreno2012 said:


> Lots of more really good points here. :thumbsup:
> 
> To explain why we have to pay for an estimate is that it is a fema flood map requirement for a detailed estimate to ensure that you are not going over 1/2 the cost of the house or then you have to raise the house and do mitigation yadda yadda. It has nothing to do with insurance etc but a requirement for the county.


I have no idea what a fema flood map is, I'm fortunate to live in an area not affected by the type of weather problems you have. 
I am going to assume fema has a impact on the quotes you're getting.
I have bid projects such as sewer line replacements and the home owner is getting special funding. I frown when I see it because of the extra cost breakdowns and paperwork involved, not to mention the extended time period to wait for payment


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## Windows (Feb 22, 2010)

ZenofBuilding said:


> I would like to echo many of the comments above and add:
> 
> •	It’s a war of attrition: if you want one price, call five contractors. If you want three prices, call 12.



This is why the OP is having so much trouble getting someone to come out to give her a quote. Why wouldn't the first five be a clue to a fair price?


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Windows said:


> This is why the OP is having so much trouble getting someone to come out to give her a quote. Why wouldn't the first five be a clue to a fair price?


 
Windows, I am not getting 5 or 12 prices, heck I'd be happy to get even ONE from an electrician or a hvac company. I could not get anyone out and the one that did come out was price gouging. Since the original post I have since been able to get a hvac and drywall price but still waiting for the electrician. I am not price shopping just trying to get more than one quote. All of the advice on this site is to get 3 quotes, we couldn't even get that if we tried due to the issues down here.

I certainly agree that 12 is a leeetle overkill but I dont think its unreasonable to get 3, that should give you a good idea of what is out there.


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## chrisBC (Dec 28, 2010)

Squished said:


> Why can't people get more than 1 estimate?
> 
> Also, if you cut corners on my house you wouldn't get your final payment. Hard to cut corners when i supply the materials. In my book you're entitled to your labor rate and nothing more. I don't pay profit and overhead to anyone. That's reserved for General Contractor's and that's why I'm the GC.


Let see: A homeowner "GC" is always a nightmare because in reality they don't know what they're doing: the scheduling is off, materials are often incorrect and in short supply, etc. This is why a real GC is paid a percentage of a build price. The contractor should be the one supplying materials for a job, not a home owner.

Not a great idea to getan excessive amount of estimates in order to start a bidding war to the bottom-that's what you will get is the bottom feeders working for cheap.

The thing about charging for estimates is it weeds out the cheapos that will get like 5-10 other estimates in order to get a cheap price. People willing to pay a reasonable price for quality work don't mind paying someone for their time to give an estimate... Charging appropriately for your time will get better customers in the end. You can avoid those who will want to supply their own material, and don't understand that all business's have markup and profit (and need it to survive) etc etc


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## ZenofBuilding (Nov 19, 2012)

Don't know about the rest of you following this thread, but I vote Squished and Eplumber never do a project together...or if they do it's on a pay per view channel.:jester:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ZenofBuilding said:


> Don't know about the rest of you following this thread, but I vote Squished and Eplumber never do a project together...or if they do it's on a pay per view channel.:jester:


 
I don't believe anyone here would qualify to work for old squishy, we have to make a profit in order to feed our families:whistling2:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

ZenofBuilding said:


> Don't know about the rest of you following this thread, but I vote Squished and Eplumber never do a project together...or if they do it's on a pay per view channel.:jester:


Never happen, he'd take all the profit.....:surrender:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't let the customer provide materials so I wouldn't qualify.

My loss ,I'm sure------Besides all work would stop if I ran shot or didn't like what I was provided with.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> One thing to note though, I would never in a million years allow more than a 5% variance in a "total price" job. If you can't bid a job within 5% of the actual cost you shouldn't be in business for yourself or shouldn't be bidding for the company you work for. That's just simply ridiculous. It's not allowed in corporate America, it shouldn't be allowed in tradeswork. Everyone should be accountable to their price.


Here's the grey area with this-
Let's take something simple like installing a new toilet. Once we agree on the make and model of the toilet that I will supply, we then agree on a price for me to pull and dispose of old toilet, install new one including bowl wax, bolts, supply line and seat for $500 with warranty.
All starts out well. Angle stop is turned off and up comes the old toilet- only to find your closet flange is broke. Now, for me to stay within your 5% variance. I either eat the new flange or I set the toilet and cross my fingers for the duration of my warranty.
Or, let's say the flange is ok but I couldn't get the water to shut off. Do I eat a new angle stop? I think not. I price per job, and it's defined in the contract documents. Once additional M&L is needed. I expect a change order of some sort- sure, we can negotiate on the finer points but I'll still want something for my time.
As for the corporate world, do you pay an attorney by the hour or per court case or both?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> Believe it or not, i can be very easy to work with, I just like to work a tight budget. I do allow certain people to provide their own materials, especially plumbers and electricians since their quality from the supply house doesn't even come close to what I can get elsewhere. If I like your overall price, I will hire you, I can assure you that.
> 
> FYI guys, the only reason I'm like this (labor and materials separated and itemized) is because I'm on an FHA 203k renovation mortgage. I'm literally not allow to hire and pay any sub that works on my house with the renovation money unless their quote/invoice is in the form of labor and materials broken down. If I submitted a total price job, it would be rejected and no one would get paid. All the people that are currently working on my project knew the rules and that being said, I literally had 3-4 people of each trade submitting prices in that format to work on the job.
> 
> ...


LOL, ya right.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> First things first, I'd never pay someone to change a toilet for me. That's only cause my dad has owned his commercial plumbing business for 35+ years now and taught me everything I need to know.


The toilet was only an example-sheesh.
Funny my Dad was a GC for at least that long. He told me to be a plumber though because they make more money :jester:
What about the attorney question? Aww, forget it.....:notworthy:


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## HandiMandy (May 30, 2010)

I'm surprised the bank let you be the GC on a 203k. We got one for our house and HAD to hire one. Luckily, the captain of our hockey team is one, but he was only bonded. We bought him six months of insurance so he could do the job. He hired me to be his helper and I learned TONs that summer.


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## Squished (Sep 18, 2012)

MissKat said:


> I'm surprised the bank let you be the GC on a 203k. We got one for our house and HAD to hire one. Luckily, the captain of our hockey team is one, but he was only bonded. We bought him six months of insurance so he could do the job. He hired me to be his helper and I learned TONs that summer.


They don't. We did a somewhat similar situation to you with a family friend signing off the paperwork and then me running the job.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> They don't. We did a somewhat similar situation to you with a family friend signing off the paperwork and then me running the job.



Ahh, a little fraud.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Squished said:


> Not in the least bit. I was hired as "project manager" to run the job and all the paperwork showed all the work being done was done by subs. Good try though. :thumbup:


Ask your bank about it. If your relative hasn't been on the job site. They'll be inclined to say its fraud, and you won't be getting anymore money.

Don't believe me, just go and ask them. If I'm wrong you have nothing to lose. If I'm right, its only a felony.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

And are you getting a standard W2, or a 1099.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Squished said:


> Just edited all my posts. I'm not going to sit here and feed a troll anymore and get accused of committing a crime for merely sharing my experience and my opinions. Apparently there's only 1 way to do things on this forum regardless if you end up with the same net result and anything that opposes that you get trolled for. Oh well.


Go ahead, take your ball and go home :tt2:
How much are you paying your friend for prostituting his license?


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## zakany (Sep 24, 2012)

I was lucky to have some good tradesmen on my kitchen remodel a few years ago. I talk those guys up and try to steer business to them whenever I can.

When you are asking someone to work on your home, there has to be mutual trust. I have to trust that they will perform the work when and how we agreed. They have to trust that I will pay for the work, on time and without hassle.


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