# Can Ground Water Wick Up A Foundation Wall?



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Is that wall below grade and retaining soil?

Judging from ther rust on the door wheels and the stains in the floor and the exposed 8" or so of concrete below the plate there has been water there in the past.

That is a pretty thick and unusual wall inside the garage. The water stains seem to be below the plate elevation.

Dick


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

No, this wall is not below grade. The other side of this wall is the kitchen area. There are no signs of any water in the kitchen.

There is a bit of snow/water that comes in around the garage door wheel area (I live in Ontario, Canada). This is the area where I have the snowblower parked in the winter. Some thawing snow drips water in this area. I do believe that this "wicking" phenomena has been going on for some time now. These areas of the wall were always "flaking" off cement dust and small pieces of the cement wall. There were never signs of water staining on the wall though, until recently when I had a mason put parging over these areas of the wall. The next rain, these large stains appeared on the wall. I had the mason back to look at this and he said he never saw something like this before. He did use "a lot" of the white glue in the parging mix and thought that this may be contributing to the "wicking" action. I really do not know what to do next to determine what is going on in this wall? From the condition of the studs, it doesn't look like the water is coming from above the foundation wall, but from below it, doesn't it?

I did do a test where I cleaned the windows and siding on the other side of the house. It hadn't rained in weeks and water showed up on this wall. It seems there is something going on underground that is causing the water to push up through this foundation wall? Any ideas?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/risingdamp/risingdamp.htm


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code

Be safe, Gary


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Thank you for the feedback. I'm not sure what to make of what I have read in these links. I tested my weeping tiles by running a lot of water through one of the window well drains, it ran for over 2 hours, draining easily and with no sign of moisture on this garage wall. I have noticed that our garage floor slab has been showing darker areas after a rainfall, so there is moisture under this floor slab. There is an area around the side of the garage that has a sidewalk section that has sunken over the years. Water migrates here, against the garage foundation wall, this maybe where some of the water gets under the floor slab and could be feeding the wicking action on the wall?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

The water is coming in under the sill plate. Water is staining the concrete but not the wood in the pictures. Post some photos of the exterior and let us know the height of the soil in relationship to the top of the concrete.
Ron


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Water coming from the sill would make sense, since the top of the concrete (directly under the sill) is dark after a good rain, while it is the normal light gray color when it has had a chance to dry.

The top of the concrete foundation wall is approximately 8" above grade (at the front of the garage).

As you suggested here are some pictures of the perimeter of the house. The grade is the highest at the back of the house and slopes towards the front of the house. As you can see from the pictures, our driveway is deteriorated. Rain runoff accumulates at the front entrance of the garage, along the edge of the floor slab. It also accumulates at the side of the garage under the door. I am planning on lifting this sidewalk section somewhat to help drain the water away from the garage.

I strongly believe the most water is coming from the back of the house, since this is where I washed the siding and the windows. After 2.5 hours of water flushing this area, water stains started appearing on the garage wall. 

Mind you the oddity here is that there are 3 areas along this smae garage wall that produce water stains (see additional picture below). The other walls are clear?? The area I opened up was the most stained (see picture below).


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Here are the other pictures that show the water stains on this wall, prior to me opening the worst one.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Looks to me the water is coming in from the front porch, which is at the same level as the garage. It gets in there and wicks it way back to the door to the house.
Ron


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## moneymgmt (Apr 30, 2007)

Ron6519 said:


> Looks to me the water is coming in from the front porch, which is at the same level as the garage. It gets in there and wicks it way back to the door to the house.
> Ron


Agreed! Caulk the heck out of that porch!!! Father-in-law had the same issue but the water was getting into his basement wall and molding the drywall. He swore it was from below since the room is under the garage but we checked the porch and saw how bad the caulk job was. It got in there and gravity did the rest.


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Strange that you mention the porch, I also completely soaked the porch with the hose. Usually water doesn't get in there to much, there is also a cold room under that porch that is dry. 

You may have a point with the front of the garage/porch area .... I replaced a the corner of the cement that is on the outside left side of the garage door (facing the front of the house). It got brittle and broke off, as well as the right most corner of the porch (facing the front of the house) .... I will try flushing this area again, maybe with this wall open now I should be able to see the foundation turn black and get damp?


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## Leelumberchgo (Jul 6, 2010)

Is there any chance you have a leak in the water supply line that is in that wall?


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

I checked that by running the hose for sometime into the front yard (watering the grass) and there are no stains. Also, it's only after a good rainfall that these stains appear. I do believe it is some kind of sill leaks, as Ron said, since the top of the faoundation wall is dark. The water must be getting sucked up through the cememt and coming out from under the sill plate. What do I do if this is the case though? Dismantling this wall seems out of the question, would it be trying to redirecting the ground water only?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

99bobster99 said:


> I checked that by running the hose for sometime into the front yard (watering the grass) and there are no stains. Also, it's only after a good rainfall that these stains appear. I do believe it is some kind of sill leaks, as Ron said, since the top of the faoundation wall is dark. The water must be getting sucked up through the cememt and coming out from under the sill plate. What do I do if this is the case though? Dismantling this wall seems out of the question, would it be trying to redirecting the ground water only?


I don't think it's ground water.Water gets on the porch when it rains and goes through the wall.
Ron


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> I don't think it's ground water.Water gets on the porch when it rains and goes through the wall.
> Ron


 
I'd have to go along with Ron on this one. There's just way too much water present at the wall to be wicking moisture UP IMO. 

How about a pic of the stoop to brick corner? 

I would guess that the stoop is poured directly against the brick, shrunk slightly, and is allowing water to hit the brick ledge below, and run into the garage. It sure doesn't appear to have a sunken brickledge from the pics, which is often times a problem down the road, as you're finding out now.

I'm just suprised that you've never gotten water in the space below????????


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

*yes*

A very knowledgeable individual on another forum (greenbuildingadvisor) told me that concrete can wick, theoretically, about 15 miles. That is why he uses (as so many others) a special latex paint between the footer and foundation wall and foundation wall and slab. Whether or not that is your problem, I have no idea, but apparently water can wick a long-butt way. j


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Here are some pictures of the porch and the surrounding area where some of the concrete has broken off. The underside of the edge of the porch floor slab (about a 6" chunk), closest to the garage, broke off this spring. Also the concrete section between the left side of the garage door and the porch also had a large chunk break away this spring. I never thought anything about it (I have kids that play hockey on the driveway). Maybe this is a sign that some water is in there, like Ron mentioned??

This latex paint that you mentioned, can it do anything if applied after the sill is mounted to the foundation wall?


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Here are some more pictures of the porch/garage area.


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

The latex paint is specifically for preventing wicking, so it will apparently stop water wherever it is applied. I would assume that if it stops water in concrete, and then the concrete is allowed to freeze, that that would tend to break the concrete up. Wish I knew more to help w/ your retro-fitting it. Obviously, it is mandatory to find where the water is coming from and stop it there.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

If you lay the hose on the porch and put it on low towards the garage, you should get your answer. I think it's odd that the porch concrete goes under the brick. This design allow the water to travel all the way to the garage, under the brick.
Ron


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

99bobster99 -

A hose test is really not a reliable test since you are not creating the actual conditions and the time frame that is required for permeability/weeping is so much longer than short hose test that may give a false reading. The soil itself, can absorb and draw away more moisture than can weep through sound concrete. Weeping takes a long time to carry some water, especially if adjacent areas (buried stroage rooms) are still dry and made from the same materials.

I have seen some very strange water problems and you usually have to look upward if it is related to rainfall and shows up in large quantities within 24 hours. Some of the causes are poor gutter installation improper flashing around and over doors and windows, flashing around chimneys and the intersection of roof and walls.

kglingel -

I suggest you try to find a documented statement citing your experts opinions since water weeping through concrete 15 feet seem a little on the inane side. Is that vertically or horizontally. The concrete industry mas spent 10's of million of dollars to develop a 6"-12" permeable concrete that is effective. So far the only problems have been with the aggregate fines the plug any pores.

Latex is NOT a water sealer, but some water repellent materials are latex based and the more successfully coatings are cement-based or crystal-based. One of the problems with checking the permeability of concrete is that the embedded and surrounding materials have an affinity to attract the moisture. This is the reason wood always is a conductor or transporter of moisture (vertically and laterally) and water will move until it hit wood, like a wood plate. It is not unusual to have water travel up to 16 in height and 50' horizontally before it hits a barrier like concrete.

For some reason that wall section in the garage is very unique and complicated for some reason. Were you the original owner?

Dick


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Post some shots of the porch roof, specifically where the shingles hit the wall. 
Ron


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## jklingel (Dec 21, 2008)

Dick: Check w/ Robert Riversong on the greenbuildingadvisor.com site. No, I did not verify his claim, which is why is said "apparently". Robert seems to know his stink, as confirmed by the link in buildingscience below. The paint he (and others there) suggests in UGL Dry Loc.

This says "tens of feet". http://www.fab-form.com/products/fastfoot

/Rising%20Damp/Wicking%20Forces%20in%20Concrete.html


"The theoretical limit of capillary rise in concrete is about 10 kilometers..."

http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...rifices/?searchterm=water wicking in concrete

Good enough? j


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

It is least there are more details and the numbers cited are getting closer to the real work. Unfortunately, no documentation to start with that support the claims so others have not bothered to waste time on a floundering research study with little likelihood of producing meaningful results in any ones lifetime.

The problem the OP reported has a a rather short period of time and weeping/permating takes years or centuries to approach the strange numbers claimed.

Bottom line is that water willmigrate/move until it meets a barrier and the photos suggest that the sound concrete was a barrier that the water the wood could not absorb fast enough ran out to the surface where it was seen and not the actual cause of the leakage.

Dick


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Here is another weird issue that I am seeing with this garage wall ... now that I have the area which was the most stained opened up, there is no longer any water/moisture showing up in this area??? What the heck is going on?? I was hoping to see a trickle of water coming from either above (roof) or from the sill/foundation joint, but there is nothing? The top of the foundation, as I have mentioned before, is slightly darker than before a rain. Also, these moisture stains only show up a day after a good ground rainfall. Is there some kind of vacuum being created in this wall when everything is sealed up, maybe having the area opened up now is removing a vacuum buildup? The other 2 areas of the wall are still showing very prominent moisture stains.

No, I am the 2nd owner of the house. The original owner of the house was a masonary guy, he went a little overboard on the walls in this house! I rebuilt the downstairs shower a very years ago, and it was metal lathe and plaster that was over an inch thick.

I will post some pictures of the chimnet flashing and the roof area covering the porch later today.

I really don't know where to start fixing this issue, I am getting prices on redoing the driveway (better slope away from house) as well as the side of the house where the door is located. I'd like them to slope the sidewalk for better drainage away from the foundation. This should be a good start. 

I did the water test on the porch, I completely soaked all 3 walls, for over an hour and a half. There were no signs of moisture on this garage wall. But like concretemasonry mentioned, there might be some capillary action going on during a hard rainfall that I cannot simulate?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

As Dick suggested, it's possible the water is coming from above. It could be getting in between the brick and sheathing and hitting the porch floor below. The path of least resistance might be into the garage, under the sill plate.
Ron


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> As Dick suggested, it's possible the water is coming from above. It could be getting in between the brick and sheathing and hitting the porch floor below. The path of least resistance might be into the garage, under the sill plate.
> Ron


That’s what I would think.

But it’s just odd that there is enough moisture to rust the nails but yet no signs that the sill has ever been wet.

Have you tore off the rest of the sheetrock up to the door? It has to come off anyway.

I want to see wet wood (for troubleshooting purposes only).

Don’t spend any money on a fix until you know for sure what the fix is.:no:


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Here is what I find strange about where the moisture may be coming from ... before I opened the wall, it looked like this (see first picture below), after a similar rainfall, and after having opened up the wall it looks like the next picture?? Where did all the moisture go? Yet, the other areas further along the wall are still as wet (stained - see third picture) as they were before I opened the section of wall?? This is why I think it may be moisture moving around in this wall and not actual water flow, maybe this is why the wood itself isn't molded. Another thought, could the water be coming up the inside face of the foundation wall, get captured by all that parging (remember this new layer of parging has a lot of white glue added, maybe it is keeping the wall from breathing) thus trapping the moisture between the outside parging and the face of the plaster on this wall?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

How far did that foil-faced insulation board go down?

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

You need to open up that wall all the way to the door on the right. All that rock has to come out of there anyway you might as well do it now and chase that leak.

Pretty clear the point of exit is at plate line. Your flood the porch 
test produced nothing so the next place to look is up not down. You said there is a chimney up there.

If you pull the rest of the damaged sheetrock off and all the wood and insulation is dry, I’ll be amazed (and stumped).


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

I only removed the front face sheetrock and parging, this is exactly what was in the wall after I opened it up. I was surprised to only see that one sheet of insulation and then a bunch of loose insulation fill?

I will open the rest of the wall beside the garage door up, I expect it to be dry, since I'm not seeing any moisture or water in this area after having it opened up? I think kwikfishron with be stumped and amazed, because I certainly am. The chimney is on the opposite side of the house, I will post pictures of the flashing this weekend.

I've had numerous (8) contractors look at this problem and all of them have walked away scratching their heads without any suggestions. Especially why this opened up area is not molded, after having shown them the pictures of how damp the wall was before it was opened?? This is the point that has everyone puzzled? Shouldn't there be mold and rot in this wall, seeing how large of a moisture stain was on that wall before I opened it? Could this moisture only be travelling up the face of the wall facing the inside of the garage? Could it be trapped between the layer of sheetrock and the layer of parging?


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## Durt Ferguson (Apr 14, 2010)

Well? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

I didn't get a chance to open up the rest of that wall this weekend, but I did notice that the lip of the parging on the opened area was dark after a rainfall on Friday. This would be the between the foundation wall itself and the parging. This makes me think that maybe I'm on to something with the moisture coming up the face of the foundation wall, then being trapped between the parging and the face of the plaster wall? Can someone vouch for this being a possibility? Again the studs were completely dry after Friday's rainfall, while the other 3 areas showed moisture stains, ideas?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

If the water is being drawn up, you are probably on a very rare situation where you are dumping too much water into the near-by soil too fast since it shows up relatively quickly in observable amounts.

Weeping usually takes time (many days, months, years or eons) as the "expert" you cited mentioned.

Dick


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

This morning there was a lot of dew on my car and my eavestrough was dripping on the other side of the house (i.e. lots of moisture), it hasn't rained for at least a week, yet there is now large moisture stains on the same areas of this garage wall (see pictures below). This has never happened before, it was always after a rain. The item I am most concerned about is that fact that the piece of wood, on the foundation, in the opened up areas, looks wet (see picture). This has to be moisture occuring between the sill and the foundation, doesdn't it. Also, take note of the dark regions on the garage floor slab, they are very pronounced. If this is all moisture in the ground coming out, what would be a recommended fix?


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

*A bit of science*

Hi Guys,

All your testing seems to confirm that the soil is the source of the water -- even though most don't want to believe that water flowing up-hill can cause this much moisture.

A bit of building science first. It is very common for water to wick up concrete walls from the footings, and to wick up usually to 18" off of the floor. This is so common that better building science recommends that there be a capillary break (usually a plastic sheet) placed over the grooved footing prior to pouring the concrete wall. That is a recommendation, not code. This is the mechanism that deposits salt (efflorescence: http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/keyword-filter?keywords[]=Efflorescence ) in a horizontal line on so many basement walls -- the point at which the water evaporates into the room and the saturated salts remains behind. 

Secondly it can take up to 18 months for a saturated concrete foundation wall to dry out -- which means that once it is saturated, it takes very little time for new water to move things upward. 

It appears that you are feeding the wall with the surface and wall run-off, and then trapping it with a non-permeable stucco on one side and a humid garage on the other side. Surface sealed non-permeable stucco is a major building hazard, especially in a Canadian climate as although it can in theory prevent water entry -- in reality it serves more to trap outward moving moisture. Yes you could flood that area with capillary flow. 

My experience is that 80% of all foundation water problems can be basically brought under control with roof runoff and proper landscaping -- both together to keep water a good 5 to 10 feet away from the house. That space between the two houses may have to be re-designed to send water from both sides to the central properly line and down to the street, not allowing back yard water to approach the foundation. Everything else must be slopped away from the foundation. http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-data...for-drainage-in-the-yard-and-around-the-house 

If you are going to dig things up, then you can moisture proof the foundation wall at least as far down as you can dig. I would recommend Xypex - a Crystalline Grown product that over a long period of time will create a crystalline structure inside the concrete that will make it water proof all the way through the concrete -- that is why it is used in under river tunnels. You can find it in regular renovation centres. This may take a couple of years to finish growing crystals through the wall, but it will eventually block off the capillary action from the foundation footings. 

As soon as your budget permits, change that stucco for something that can help you to dry out the wall. 

I hope this might help, -- say hi to Bill, who asked me to wade in on this.

Jon Eakes


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Hello Jon,

Thank you so very much for your recommendations! 

I've had many contractors looking at this issue for some time now, without any headway (almost 2 years now). As you mentioned (and the subject title of my topic), I was told up and down that "there is no way that water will wick up a concrete wall". Everyone that has seen the water marks were sure that it was coming from the roof. I've even had Winmar in, they checked the top of that wall and ceiling for moisture (using an electronic gadget) and came up with a dry reading (even though the wall was soaked). 

You know, all these issues only started happening after I had a contractor come in and re-parge the lower 18" of this wall. He mentioned that he used "a lot of glue", which I would assume makes the wall less permeable. I only had this done because some of the wall was breaking away, most probably from the moisture? 

I was thinking about pulling all the plaster down in the garage and putting up some sort of concrete drywall. Leaving a 1/2" or so gap between the foundation wall and the bottom of the drywall (to allow the moisture to escape). Do you think this may be a good idea? The bottom of that wall is starting to look really ugly, I'm not sure how else to fix it?

I have already reshaped the landscape from what the pictures show. I had a concrete driveway put in that slopes all the water away from the house. I replaced the walkway along the side of the house as well, which redirects the water away from the foundation wall. It really made no improvement on the amount of water in the wall.

I had another contractor suggest putting a vapour barrier up on the side of the wall that I opened up. Do you think that might help? In regards to the digging you mentioned, I'm not sure I want to go to the extent of digging the garage slab out, at least not at this point. Are there any services around that could poinpoint the moisture entry point? 

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to read through and answer back on my dilemma! 

I will say hi to Bill! I'll be seeing him this week at the gym.


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## Rewound98 (Nov 16, 2011)

This thread caught my eye.

Quite a saga. 

What's this I've circled in the attached picture?


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

fyi none of the drywall in my garage touches the foundation at all.

since yours does I'd guess this may be wicking the water up rather easily. having that stucco on the lower area also looks to allow the water to go further up.


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

*more building science*

Rewound98 has a good eye -- what is that little vent grill?

Back to 99bobster99's latest questions:

"The problem started after reparging the wall." I would suggest that the moisture migration was there a long time before the reparging and that IT was what broke up the surface of the wall in the first place. When he reparged it with a impervious material, rather than preventing rain water from getting in, he forced the ground water to move towards the inside rather the outside -- and the inside has a far lower drying potential, especially in winter when it was humid in the garage because of melting snow. 

Everything keeps point towards ground water, not roof or wall water.

Services to pinpoint the problem? Yes, consultants that are efficient but expensive: http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/54-How-to-find-where-leaks-enter-the-wall Actually I am not sure they could do much more than you are doing except perhaps installing lots of moisture meters to really judge the result of controlled water application. 

Now, another little bit of building science to keep you out of more trouble. Moisture movement is always in the direction of less vapour pressure -- and in a wall that means that moisture will tend to move from a warmer face towards a colder face. In the winter that means that the moisture will move from inside the garage to outside the garage (I do assume that this garage is minimally heated because you talk of melting snow) -- but in the summer it will want to move from the outside in. (So in a heating climate like Canada we put vapour barriers on the warm-in-winter side of the wall -- and in an air conditioning climate like Florida they are put on the warm-in-summer side of the wall.) If you were to place a vapour barrier on the inside of this wall while you already have what appears to be an impermeable parging on the outside, you will definitely trap the moisture and the moisture drive will be towards the cooler indoor garage surface -- rotting those 2x's rapidly. So hold off on fixing the vapour barrier until you have stopped the moisture.

By the way, since taking off that plaster board is quite a job, if you don't need to remove it for other reasons, just paint it with a vapour barrier paint when you are ready to apply a vapour barrier: http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/1614-Vapour-barrier-paint-it-does-exist-it-does-work

I would keep looking for ground flow of water towards the garage, for anything you can reduce there we don't have to deal with in the concrete. You might even look at the garage floor drain. Does it dump all of the snow melt into the soil under the slab because of a defective exit? Are your rain gutters extended far enough away?

I would get that repair parging off of the outside of the wall so it can return to drying to the outdoors. An efficient evaporation could draw off the rising moisture before it reaches the studs. If you see a significant improvement at the bottom stud level of the wall, even when you soak the ground, you know you are already moving in the right direction. 

What I would really like to do is to wrap a plastic sheet under the whole garage slab and footing, but that is impossible. So that is why I am recommending the Xypex. Xypex is rather amazing stuff. You basically brush on a coat like a creamy/gritty paint. It can go over wet concrete, in fact it is even better if it is wet, but not water flow that could wash it off before it set. Once set so it cannot be washed off, you will want to mist it to keep it wet -- maybe even cover it a while with plastic to keep it moist. As long as it has water to work, it will initiate a reaction with the ordinary stuff in concrete to begin growing crystals that fill all the voids in the concrete. This has the effect of creating a waterproof barrier right inside the structure, rather than on the surface, of the concrete. If it all dries up, it stops, until it gets wet again and then the crystals start growing again. Every time the water comes back, it continues healing itself. This goes on for months or years, until all the voids in the concrete, all the way through, are blocked off -- stopping capillary movement of water through the concrete. The end result is like that plastic sheet under the wall -- but now it is the entire wall. 

Given that functioning I would apply Xypex to both sides of the concrete wall above grade, and to the slab for the foot or so that it is wet near the wall. Xypex is not rated as a load bearing or protective surface, but it is very strong and after the first few months all the work is happening deep inside the concrete. 

With Xypex on both sides of the wall, you could see an increase in moisture arriving at the stud level for the first little while, because the rising moisture will slowly cease to evaporate to the outside. I guess that could be an argument for working only on the inside and maybe the top couple of inches on the outside to initiate the crystal formation while leaving most of the outside open to evaporation and drying. Once the moisture no longer reaches the wood, you could add Xypex to the outside and then parge the wall for looks. By the way, Xypex over that parging would do nothing -- it would not be in physical contact with the concrete to work its chemical reaction. 

The great thing is that you can do all of this yourself -- and then tell the 8 contractors about it later.

jon


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Ok I'm just a silly woman but is it possible the water is coming from a leak in the garden faucet. I know that pipe goes through the wall and into the basement, but is it not possible.
And in that style of home doesn't the sewer main run right along the inside wall beside the stains? That would account for water wicking up

Just a stab I thought I'd throw out there since two years of investigation has failed to produce a conclusion


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

The vent grill is the cold room vent. Our cold room is directly underneath the front porch floor slab, the vent is located in the far corner. This is the weird part, thankfully, there is no water coming inside the house. Our lowest floor rooms (4 level backsplit) which are adjacent to the leaking wall do not have any indication that water is entering the house.

I will hold off on any wall repair until the moisture source is determined, like you suggested Jon. With the walls looking like they have, I would have really thought the studs would have been black with mold. Instead, they look in really good shape, considering their environment?

In regards to the rain run-off you bring up an interesting point. I did notice that water drips through the eavestrough and facia boards at some regions along the length of the eavestrough, all the way around the house?? The eavestroughs are almost 30 years old, should I be looking into getting them replaced? I did try to hammer in the nails that are securing the eavestroughs to the house, but it didn't eliminate the dripping. I will add some longer rain runoff spouts at each eavestrough outlet. I did this to the one closest to the garage, I will try get longer ones for the other (2) runoff spouts. The one at the back of the house may be leaking somewhat causing water to accumulate at the foundation??

I am assuming when you mentioned removing the repair parging on the "outside" of the wall you are meaning removing the "re-parging" that was done? This would expose 18" of studs around the bottom of the wall, or are you not recommending doing this along the entire length of the that wall, maybe 1/2 way up it? Would this be merely to let the vapour out while focusing on eliminating the water source?

I am really intrigued by the Xypex, this stuff sounds like a wonder drug for concrete! I would hope that any new home owners would be adding this to their walls, seeing what I am going through, I sure would be!!  

From your suggestions Jon, how does this sound for an action list, in priority order;

- open up an 18" section along the lower part of that wall, inside the garage, to let the moisture out. 

- replace the eavestroughs around the house to eliminate the dripping between the eaves and the facia board. Replace all rain gutter spouts to get the water well away from the foundation.

- monitor the garage floor slab to see if it is dark, since the wall will be open and the only indication of groundwater would be that floor slab?

- once the moisture is gone, add a vapour barrier to the inside surface of the garage/front porch wall.

- add Xypex to the exposed concrete foundation wall above the garage floor slab, inside the garage. Would you recommend applying the Xypex to the entire garage floor slab as well?? 

- pray that everything is now dry!! 

Please edit my "to-do" list as you see fit.


Oh, Creeper, I already checked the water faucet in the garage, it looks ok. The water only appears on the wall after a strong rainfall. The water appears on either side of the faucet, futher away from the faucet. If the leak were coming from the faucet, I would think that the water would only show up more towards the front of the garage, due to the slope. I ran it for hours, cleaning the driveway, kids playing in the sprinkler, doing whatever else I could outside (on a hot day). There were no signs of water on the wall. Thank you for your suggestion!


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

*parging*

As for removing parging on the outside -- I do not recommend exposing the wood stud part of the wall to the elements. Does that parging cover the concrete section of the wall between the ground level and the beginning of the stud wall? It is on the concrete that I want to remove this stuff, at least for now. So I would leave about a 2" overlap coming from the top, so that any rain flow on this wall will shed to the ground and not into the wall. Remove the rest to the ground -- assuming it is relatively possible to remove it at all (well stuck?). Personally I would chip a bit to determine its thickness and then use a masonry blade in a circular saw and just cut through the coating in a horizontal line -- then bang it off lower down leaving the upper section untouched. 

Just as Xypex is amazing, and not free (hence why it is not standard procedure) you could be amazed at how much good can be done to water infiltration problems by getting water from the roof far away from the foundation. You are going to need to fix those rain-gutters in any case. By the way, pounding rain gutter nails back in doesn't work -- you noticed. Check out these screws that I mention in my builder's magazine Tool Talk column: http://www.homebuildercanada.com/2202TT.htm They do work if you don't need to totally replace the gutters.

jon


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

I am assuming you don't mean removing the parging that is shown in the first picture, but check if the material in the second picture is parging, and if it is, remove it as shown?

In regards to the rain gutter replacement, I have a contractor coming over mid next week to give me a quote for replacing it all. It is in pretty rough shape (bowing here and there), I'm taking your advice of eliminating any water around the foundation as job #1.


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

*removing parging*

You are right, no need to remove anything on the inside. On the outside I see clearly in your photo that the parging goes up to the mortar line on the brick. When I suggested leaving 2 inches I thought it might go higher up the wall. The mortar line of the brick will give you a clean break point when working on the parging, if it is parging but it certainly looks like it. So I would remove right up to the mortar. The soft mortar will protect the brick from the demolition work. Let's expose the concrete portion of this will as much as possible, as it was covering this up that seems to have started the problem. 

jon


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Perfect, I will be starting on this today! 

Another strange thing I just thought of, I'm not sure if this is hindering the issue or not ... I have been laying a tarp down on the garage floor slab over the past few years, to collect the snow and salt during the winter. Do you think this might be causing in strange water issues under the floor slab?


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## Rewound98 (Nov 16, 2011)

99bobster99 said:


> Perfect, I will be starting on this today!
> 
> Another strange thing I just thought of, I'm not sure if this is hindering the issue or not ... I have been laying a tarp down on the garage floor slab over the past few years, to collect the snow and salt during the winter. Do you think this might be causing in strange water issues under the floor slab?


When I first read this thread my first thought was that it was because you parked your snowblower in that location.

Also, since there is no damage to the studs and it's only to the drywall the issue has nothing to do with the concrete.

The clincher for me was seeing the rusted roller at the bottom of the garage. That definitely didn't come from your foundation and is either snow/water from the outside or snow melting off of your snowblower.

It's similar to bringing plants into the garage as it would cause the same problem.

When you removed the drywall, was there water damage to the back of it or was it only on the front???


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Only damage to the front of the plaster (we have all plaster in the house). This is the same thought Jon had that water is coming in from that corner of the garage. My only thought is why the wall is wet after a strong rainfall, in the summer, and the area infront of the garage is dry? As well, the plaster is wet, along that wall, futher into the garage? I first thought that the water was either coming up as moisture from under the floor slab or from the back of the house, running along the sill plate on the foundation wall (hence the wet areas along that wall). Either way somehow, after a strong enough rainfall, water gets in. But, while I had that corner of the wall opened up, there were no traces of water there?? Weird, this made me think it is moisture and not actual running water. 

I noticed that the complete front of the house has this parging on the exposed foundation wall, which made me hesitant in chipping it away. Should I cover it with Xypex after removing the parging?


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

Assuming this is "damp rising" - water coming from the soil, then your history appears to point to the "waterproof" parging as the cause of the damp rising coming into the garage rather than out the wall to the outside. So in this plan yes, I would use the Xypex outside after removing the parging: because, the "waterproof" parging is acting as a barrier to water in the wall - and Xypex would slowly become a barrier to moisture rising from the soil and hence a wall that doesn't need to breath outward.

As for the internal sources -- it is very easy to test if water is coming from the inside atmosphere and going into the concrete, or coming from the concrete out. Simply dry out the surface of the concrete (ventilation fans and maybe a bit of heat), then tape down a piece of transparent plastic. Turn off the fans and the heat. If moisture appears on top of the plastic, the moisture is coming from the air and condensing on the concrete. If the moisture appears on the concrete under the plastic, the moisture is coming from the bottom up. We do this to validate the moisture condition under basement floors all the time.


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Is there a "preferred" way of getting this old parging off of the foundation wall? I've been chipping it away with a chisel and it is definately not coming off easily?? I am planning on re-doing the complete front of the house parging with the Xypex as close to the ground as possible. Near the flower beds I may temporarily remove the soil about a foot or so down. Seeing as the chiseling is taking a while, I may be retired before I finish going all the way around the house.


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

*chipping parging*

It sounds like the guy used good "glue". Go rent an electric chisel, they call it a Chipping Hammer -- it is like a hammer drill that does not spin and you can put in flat masonry bits: http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=11320VS -- You can find this at rental stores. Wear gloves and goggles. Once you have it started, try working parallel to the face of the concrete -- digging between the wall and the parging like as if you were lifting off tiles. Doesn't always work that easily, but usually does.


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Perfect, I'll give that a shot and let you know how it goes. I noticed that Home Depot sells the Xypex, $60 for a 11kg pail. Does this sound like a decent price?

What did you think of the tarp I have been putting over the garage slba, during the winter? Do you think this may be causing some "strange" under slab water issues?


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## Jon Eakes (May 21, 2012)

the price is right.

A tarp shouldn't cause a problem. High humidity in a barely heated space could be a problem, as one person suggested, but that would be more attracted to the cold concrete, not the insulated wall. You may however want to monitor relative humidity in the winter and perhaps either heat a bit more or ventilate a bit of drop the humidity of melting snow.


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Great, thank you very much Jon! I will let you know how I am progressing on this project!


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

This is just more and more head scratching as time goes on! I haven't started repairing the parging yet, due to crazy hours at work (really). Today it's been over 30 degrees C all day, we had the garage closed all day, the air conditioner on in the house (set to 23 deg. C). We haven't had any rain since a bit on Saturday morning (it's now Tuesday night). I just noticed that the garage wall is wet! This has never happened, or I've never notice it before. The parging around the house is dry as a bone, the garage floor slab is not black in colour from moisture, but the walls are showing moisture, see pictures below. Where the heck is this moisture coming from, the cold inside walls (due to air conditioner) and the extreme heat outside?

This is driving me crazy! I don't think it can be ground water, the rain may have changed the humidity level that caused the water on the wall, what do you think?

The moisture is on the section of the wall that is opposite to the inside (kitchen) space. The area of the wall that is opposite the front porch is dry??


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## anon2012 (Jun 25, 2012)

I notice that even when your garage door is shut, there is a little space where the light is getting through. After a rain, do you find that water pools around the openings in the door. If so, maybe this trapped water has no where to go, but get absorbed by the wall? Maybe sealing the garage door would help?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Where is the evaporator for you A/C?

Any chance this is moisture from the condensate drain?


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

Anon12, yes, there was a slight gap at the bottom of the garage door. Since that picture was taken I have re-positioned the rubber gasket at the bottom of the door to be centered. It didn't make a difference though. I was hoping it would help, no such luck!

Ddawg16, the A/C evaporator drain is on the other side of the house. The condenser and fan are over on the other side as well.

There is definately some odd moisture phenomena going on her, I am sure this house floats at night!  Seriously, it's been over (2) years, contractors run from this issue scratching their heads. I am sure it is something simple that is being overlooked! I am contemplating ripping all the plaster down from the garage walls and building up new drywall, leaving a small 1/2 air gap just above the foundation wall. This would at least let any moisture escape. 

I did note one thing though, this year the garage floor slab doesn't get dark after a heavy rain ... maybe the ground water table is lower?? The water on the walls is less severe this year.


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## anon2012 (Jun 25, 2012)

Is it possible that your garage floor did not get wet after the heavy rain, because you had fixed the gap in the door? Maybe the moisture you still see on the walls is from before


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## SeanB (Jun 21, 2012)

I would hesitate from putting up more drywall and covering up the issue with a gap until you are 100% sure where the issue is coming from. I would find it hard to believe your water table is so high that water is leeching up through the concrete and not leaking into your basement. Could you have a drainage issue but the water proofing of your basement is keeping the water at bay for the time being.

Have you thought about tearing up a small area in the garage floor to see how wet it is under it?
:hammer:


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

I'd pause a moment and get an inexpensive humidity meter or two and place one near the wet area and another in the opposite side of the garage. 

Take readings for a week or two and see if airborne humidity levels in your garage coincide with appearance of wet walls. 

If there is a significant difference in relative humidity from one side to the other, that would tend to confirm an outside source but if they are the same could it not be condensation from the air causing all this?


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## anon2012 (Jun 25, 2012)

Did you ever try the Xypex? I was curious if this stuff actually works


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## 99bobster99 (Jul 26, 2010)

I centered the garage door weather stripping that is under the door to close up that gap. There hasn't been any hard rain in the last few weeks, so I am anxiously waiting to see what happens during the next hard rainfall. The water would have to run in through that opening and along the top of the foundation wall all the way to the back of the garage closest to the garage/kitchen door? If that foundation wall has sunk any and is now lower towards the back of the garage, I guess this could occur? I hope this is it! 

Where can you rent/buy a moisture meter? I asked at Home Depot and they looked at me like I had 2 heads?

I haven't tried the Xypex yet, mostly due to not having gotten to it yet because of work. I want to try all other "simple" options first before getting into this project. This could take me months to finish, I am only a weekend warrior when it comes to renovations.

I am finding that the garage floor is not as dark as it was last year after a very hard rain. Can the water table vary this much from year to year?

I think I've (with the help of the awesome team at DIYChatroom), have narrowed it down to the following;

-> ground water coming into the garage via the gap caused by the shifter garage door weather stripping.

-> ground water coming in from penetrating the exterior face of the foundation wall exposed to the elements.

-> varying levels of moisture in the garage itself, due to AC running and higher humidity close to the kitchen/garage wall.

-> rain water was dripping in behind the eavestrough and the fascia in a large number of areas around the house. This may have caused excessive ground water close to the foundation wall which could have worked itself back to the garage. I am getting new eavestroughs and down spouts put in next week to eliminate this possibility.


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