# How to prevent kitchen water lines from freezing?



## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

I have kitchen lines near a exterior wall / bay window which freeze every year.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Are they accessible?

Can you wrap them with a heat tape and insulation?

Maybe a heat lamp?

open the cabinet door to let some heat circulate?

let them drip?

ED


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

One guideline for insulating pipes is to add lots of insulation between the pipe and the cold. And add no insulation between the pipe and their source of heat. Now, easy to say but not always easy to do, but the idea is to be sure your insulation is not preventing some heat to reach the pipes.

An example would be, pipes below a floor where you can build a "U" channel around them with the top open to the floor above.

The other important fix is to be sure you seal off any openings where cold air can seep in and around your pipes.

I would need pictures or more details on your problem area to be more exact in my advice.

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

The floor below (the basement) is finished and has heat.

I will post a pic of the kitchen.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

The basement is finished but do you have access to those pipes through the ceiling? 

In most homes one of the leaky areas is where the house rests on the foundation. To make this worse, winter stack effect involves cold air pushing the lower leaks in a house and forcing the warmer air up and out the higher leaks. This infiltration of cold air would right where your pipes are located.

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> The basement is finished but do you have access to those pipes through the ceiling?


I would have to cut out drywall to see what is going on.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Since those pipes already have a history of freezing every winter it's time to open up that ceiling and fix the problem. I've see pipes swell and bulge from repeated freezing and eventually burst. Then you will be replacing more than a section of the ceiling.

Being enclosed also means it wouldn't be a good place for a heat tape. Not that they aren't used in hidden places but access to them is desirable.

Might also consider installing an access panel to that area.

Bud


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Not one picture, no location, no idea what type plumbing it is, CPVC, copper, steel?


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

joecaption said:


> Not one picture, no location, no idea what type plumbing it is, CPVC, copper, steel?


PEX. New Jersey. First floor kitchen.

How is the bay window affecting things?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

So the frozen pipes are actually behind the cabinets and not in the basement ceiling??
Pex is more resilient than copper but still not good to allow it to freeze.
There are different ways to bulid a bay window. Does the siding go straight down from the window on the outside or does it angle back to the side of the house above the foundation?

Very often the cavities created by a bay window are poorly insulated and leak a lot of cold air. If yours goes straight down, look under it to see how they sealed the bottom. A picture of the outside would help.

NJ is not that cold, I used to live in Brick and work in Holmdel. But cold air leaking in will freeze those pipes.

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> So the frozen pipes are actually behind the cabinets and not in the basement ceiling??


They come up from the bottom of the cabinet underneath the sink.

I would assume they would run in the basement ceiling.



Bud9051 said:


> A picture of the outside would help.


I'll take a pic tomorrow


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I agree they probably run in the basement ceiling, but the question is, are the frozen areas in the basement ceiling or behind the cabinets?

There are actually two path options for the pipes coming into that cabinet. They can come up straight through the bottom of the cabinet or they can come up inside the wall and then through the back of the cabinet.

Bud
Done for the night. Been climbing ladders all day, windy and cool. Getting too old for this stuff.


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## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

I used to live in the mtns in Colorado where it routinely got to minus 10,or 20 at night. 

If you can't get to the pipes themselves to insulate them, you can do a few things:

If you have ready access to the supply shutoff valve, you can shut it off at night,, open all the faucets in the house, and drain the lines. Turn everything back on in the morning and you should be good to go.

Or, you can let the kitchen faucet drip both the hot and cold water just a few drops a minute..That little bit of water movement through the pipes "should" prevent all but extreme below zero freezing.

Or you can set your alarm and wake up every 2 hours or so and let the water run for a minute. The water coming up out of the ground should be well above freezing, so it will take a while for it to freeze up.
.
.


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> There are actually two path options for the pipes coming into that cabinet. They can come up straight through the bottom of the cabinet or they can come up inside the wall and then through the back of the cabinet.


From the bottom.

Here is a pic of the outside:


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

That polygon cavity below the window is often poorly insulated, but it doesn't look easy to access from the outside. Below that is a basement vent (I assume). How is that incorporated into the finished basement? Is it hidden behind the wall or visiable like a window?

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> visiable like a window?


Thats a tiny basement window.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

I suspect a major lack of insulation in that bay window base.

Often they are left open and just have the angled sides put on to cover the lower wall, and the pipes inside are left to be taken care of by the next crew, which are not there to insulate or build walls.

So they are left or only get just a very little protection.

Buy a SEE-SNAKE, and poke a small hole under the countertop in the wall, and look around in the wall to see what is there, or tear out a big hole under there and give it a look.


ED


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Being a window it will be contributing to the cold in that area. Also, the sill plate passes over the window and it is often is not well air sealed on top. 

Remember, we are flying blind until we get some pictures. Can you take one from the inside of that window?

Bud


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

In Post #11, the OP said the water lines come up from the floor through the bottom of the cabinet, not the wall. The cold might be coming in at the sill plate/ rim joist. It only takes a tiny hole in the right spot to make the cold air like a tiny cold spear on the pipe. It make take a drywall patch in the basement to solve this. An IR camera at the ceiling below the sink and/or the outside wall below the window may show a cold spot.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

That they did say.

But, I have seen the cold come 10 inches in under one of those that had no insulation in the wall, and freeze the pipes.

So I am still wondering if they insulated and sealed up good under there when it was installed.

We still don't know exactly what is freezing, the open line under the sink, or the hidden line in the floor, or right at the hole in the floor.

So at this moment we are trying to cover it all.


ED


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

de-nagorg said:


> That they did say.
> 
> But, I have seen the cold come 10 inches in under one of those that had no insulation in the wall, and freeze the pipes.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of the game show 20 questions. It's looking as if the OP has stumped the panel and won the game.:vs_mad:


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Here is a pic of the basement window:


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

In #19 above , they have a good idea, get an IR camera and photo all around and under the cabinets, to see where there is heat loss.

Most PO CO'S have a program where they either do this for free or at a reduced cost to help homeowners save the expensive energy. 

This will tell you exactly where you have a loss and where to concentrate your efforts to save money and stop the freezing of your pipes.



ED


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Either the $19.98 or the $59.98 IR thermometer may tell you what needs to be known.

But I have a feeling for freezing to occur, the pipes are on the wrong side of the insulation and the wall will need to be opened and that corrected.


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

SeniorSitizen said:


> the wall will need to be opened and that corrected.


The outside is stucco.

I could come up from the basement, but I would hit the subfloor.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

During cold weather the natural flow of air is cold air in through the lower leaks pushing the warm air up and out the upper leaks. I use an infrared camera in my energy work and to enhance that flow to make it more visible we run our exhaust fan. In your case the bath fan and kitchen fan would do. BUT, cold air coming in even above that drywall will be very obvious using an IR camera. And they can be rented.

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> During cold weather the natural flow of air is cold air in through the lower leaks pushing the warm air up and out the upper leaks. I use an infrared camera in my energy work and to enhance that flow to make it more visible we run our exhaust fan. In your case the bath fan and kitchen fan would do. BUT, cold air coming in even above that drywall will be very obvious using an IR camera. And they can be rented.
> 
> Bud



What is the point of diagnosing, when I can't access the area to fix it?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

enochian said:


> What is the point of diagnosing, when I can't access the area to fix it?


If you are unwilling to access the area to correct the problem refer to reply #13 for a solution.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Well, #13 is a good list, but if those fail and a pipe freezes and breaks you will want to know where to make changes as you replace ALL of the drywall in the basement. At least you will get it right with the remodel.

Bud


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

SeniorSitizen said:


> If you are unwilling to access the area to correct the problem refer to reply #13 for a solution.



I am willing, but there is *no* path to insulate the bay window.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Maybe through a hole in the cabinet back, then a drywall patch, and primer. 

There are ways to do this with minimal damage. 
Insulating an existing space is going to cause some damage, there is no way around it.

maybe a small quartz heater in the space next to the plumbing , over the cold months.


ED


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

I cut the drywall above the basement window and I can see the kitchen lines.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Is this the basement ceiling or the wall that we have here?


ED


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## enochian (Jul 1, 2015)

de-nagorg said:


> Is this the basement ceiling or the wall that we have here?
> 
> 
> ED



Basement *ceiling*, right above the basement window

The thing on the bottom left is part of the basement window frame.


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