# Main panel without main disconnect



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

There is a Main switch/shut off at the meter ?
That is normal & required by code in some areas
I prefer a panel with a Main breaker built in


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

You should look right below of the meter socket if it have main breaker otherwise you may have split buss panel there.

The split buss panel the top four or six two pole breaker is used for main breaker purpose and it used to be common in old days but no longer legit.

{ if you turn off one two pole breaker it will turn off the bottom half of panel that is split buss set up }

Can you get the breaker box model number it should be printed on both door and inside of the tub { inside of breaker panel } or take a photo and show to us then we can able indentify it.

Merci,Marc


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Or, If you have another panel in the house, this could be a sub panel. Sub panels within a single attached dwelling require no disconnect or main breaker.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I am with French. You most likely have a split-buss panel. VERY common around here years ago.

And NO! The meter is NOT a valid form of disconnect. DO NOT even think about removing it, ever.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Instead of editing my last post however let me add here due the OP is From Cambridge area I do not know if he is in older city area or new surrounding area if in older city IIRC there were a disconnection swtich outside of building I belive it look like old style pull box.

Somecase it will have CT { current transfomer } meter socket with disconnection switch there.

However a stern warning here do not even think about the meter socket just look at it but do not do anything with it this part is UNFUSED and alive all the time !!!!

Merci,Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

WOW, thanks for warning about the meter shut-off. I will not go near it then.

In any case, my main circuit panel (I am 100% sure this is the main panel. The sub panel is right next to it.) doesn't have the main disconnect. I will get the model number and picture tomorrow. 

And yes this is Cambridge, MA. And this is a brand new construction, by the same electrician that did my dryer circuit.


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

ninghai said:


> And yes this is Cambridge, MA. And this is a brand new construction, by the same electrician that did my dryer circuit.


Boy this guy got you coming and going huh! Was his work inspected?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

ninghai said:


> WOW, thanks for warning about the meter shut-off. I will not go near it then.
> 
> In any case, my main circuit panel (I am 100% sure this is the main panel. The sub panel is right next to it.) doesn't have the main disconnect. I will get the model number and picture tomorrow.
> 
> And yes this is Cambridge, MA. And this is a brand new construction, by the same electrician that did my dryer circuit.


That is very odd to see a new construction to see a load centre sans main breaker at all.

It will marked as " Main Disconnection " or " Service Disconnection " one of the two.

With new construction it automatic to see a main breaker installed either at the breaker box or below the meter socket that is the only two places you will see nothing where else at all did that place have allready inspector check that place when it was after rough and final installed ?

They should caught that one.

If there were no main breaker then you have super serious issue allready arise some worst case I did ran into is someone installed main *lugs* instead of main BREAKER in there.

some case someone get 200 amp main lugs and installed 100 amp main breaker in there { I have see that once a while and I hate it }

Merci,Marc


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I am holding off on commenting until I see some pics, other than to say maybe this is a small main panel with less than six disconnects??? :huh:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I am holding off on commenting until I see some pics, other than to say maybe this is a small main panel with less than six disconnects??? :huh:


 
That is the best answer just wait until the OP come up with the photo so we can see the answer there.

Merci,Marc


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

What makes me wonder is this is the same electrician that gave him a 20amp circuit for his electric dryer. This guy just may not be very qualified. You would think it had to be inspected!


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

MA has some strict codes and licensing rules from what I can gather. If this is new construction there would HAVE to be inspections. If not...


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> MA has some strict codes and licensing rules from what I can gather. If this is new construction there would HAVE to be inspections. If not...


 He did say in the other thread this was new construction, so would assume it was inspected. I would think there has to be a main disconnect somewhere, or electrician and inspector missed the boat!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Paelectrician.,

this is the tread I know it will carry over on the matter.,,


http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/20a-circuit-breaker-30a-dryer-ok-60519/

Merci,Marc


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## Paelectrican (Mar 4, 2009)

Something just seems wrong with this whole thing! OP are you able to provide pics of the panel and also your meter box?


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

left side is the main panel. right side is the sub panel. the main panel is Murray LC4040L1200.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Look outside by the meter. Can you take a picture of the meter socket?


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

Note the service lines are connected directly to the hot bus without a disconnect. The first two breakers on the left side supply the sub panel.


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

meter box outside. it does have a 200A main breaker here.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Gotta love wirenuts in a new construction panel.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

ninghai said:


> meter box outside. it does have a 200A main breaker here.


There you go. There's your disconnect. Can you take some close pics of the neutral and ground bars in the main panel.


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

what are you looking for specifically?

yes, there are a couple of wire nuts in there. but the inspector didn't say anything so i assume it was OK. not fantastic but OK. 

just to clear the question. the entire house is wired by the same electrician and it passed the inspection already.


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

Is this a single family dwelling or condo?


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

This is perfectly legal in MA.


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

single family.


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

It looks like the wirenutted connections are neutral extensions of the AFCI neutral.

Not sure why the white conductors not re-identified as ungrounded wasn't caught.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

ninghai said:


> what are you looking for specifically?
> 
> yes, there are a couple of wire nuts in there. but the inspector didn't say anything so i assume it was OK. not fantastic but OK.
> 
> just to clear the question. the entire house is wired by the same electrician and it passed the inspection already.


Just wanted to see if all of the grounds and neutrals were separated at the main and if bonding screw was removed. Yes, not pretty, but it's legal.


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

Can you take a closer picture of the red wirenut in side the panel?


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

HIVOLT said:


> Can you take a closer picture of the red wirenut in side the panel?


You mean the one with multiples wires nutted together? At least that's what it looks like. But hey, it was passed by an inspector so it must be safe. Hope they're on different phases...


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

Now really how many inspectors look inside the panel. The only time I look in the panel is when the electrician is present. As an inspector I am not allowed to remove the dead front or panel cover .


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The panel cover should be removed before to inspection .. How else will you be able to verify proper bonding of the panelboard?

This paneboard is one with a split neutral design that is a little different than most where you usually see both terminal bars insulated from the case and ground bars are added for 4 wire feeds to the panel.

The OP's panel has one insulated neutral terminal bar on the right side and one bonded neutral/ground terminal bar on the left side. For 4 wire feeds the main bonding jumper is not connected to the insulated neutral terminal bar. And the bar on the left becomes your case bonded grounding bar and the bar on the right is your isolated neutral bar. 

The panel appears to be wired grounding on the left and neutral on the right. What I would like to verify is if the conduit between the meter/main and the panel board is metal like EMT or other listed conduit that can serve as the equipment ground. Reason I ask is the panelbaord is served with SEU which is a 3 conductor cable with no ground. If that panelbaord does not have an equipment ground ran to it and the main bonding jumper is not installed then there is no ground fault protection and would be a huge code violation.

Same with the feeder to the subpanel I only see 3 wires ...so verification of the equipment ground is necessary and also proper bonding in both panelboards.

Here is the OP's panelboard with the wiring taken out of the picture.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Are you sure about the feeds? It looks like SER feeding the panel and NM running to the sub. If you look to the extreme right, the insulated grounded with the white stripe is visible.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

jerryh3 said:


> Are you sure about the feeds? It looks like SER feeding the panel and NM running to the sub. If you look to the extreme right, the insulated grounded with the white stripe is visible.


Jerry 

Thanks

I couldn't see that but now that you pointed it out I believe you are correct so all that needs to be verified is the other panel board feeder and main bonding jumpers not installed and proper bonding of the second panelboard.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Jerry
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I couldn't see that but now that you pointed it out I believe you are correct so all that needs to be verified is the other panel board feeder and main bonding jumpers not installed and proper bonding of the second panelboard.


Yeah, definitely a lot going on in that panel. It looks like everything is right, just sloppy. I would still like to see that red wire nut. It looks like he ran out of holes and combined a few neutrals to a single pigtail. Although, this is the same goofball that ran a 12/3 for a dryer so I wouldn't take anything for granted.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

jerryh3 said:


> Yeah, definitely a lot going on in that panel. It looks like everything is right, just sloppy. I would still like to see that red wire nut. It looks like he ran out of holes and combined a few neutrals to a single pigtail. Although, this is the same goofball that ran a 12/3 for a dryer so I wouldn't take anything for granted.


Yes, some more detailed pictures would be nice and a picture of the second panelboard with cover off with be great.
I agree that since it was inspected it probably looks fine and the logic of the wiring seems correct. Just terribly sloppy. I would have opted for a different split neutral design where you added ground bars to both sides of the panel...that way you don't have all that cross over going on.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Thanks for taking the photo now we see the whole details beside the subpanel .,,


The main breaker is below the meter socket that is legit as you show us the photo .,

The main panel it look legit but in couple spots I can not able see the bonding strap is hooked up or not otherwise pretty much legit there however a nice head up with 240 volt circuits with some of them are white conductors used for line instead of netural so take a tape or marker and remark them that it.

If you have time to take a photo of subpanel please do that to see where it goes with it.

As for dryer part I will answer in other thread so it don't get crossed over with answers.

Merci,Marc


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## ninghai (Dec 29, 2009)

sub panel.


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