# Sheetrock separation at the ceiling



## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

Our house is 3.5 years old, it was brand new when we bought it. All through out the 2nd floor (it's a 2 story house) the wall sheetrock has separated from the ceiling. Also we have a large crack in one wall that has been fixed twice all ready and it's cracked again. So far there are 3 doors in different parts of the house now that will not shut all the way and lock. You can see where the frame is no longer level. :furious:

From what I'm finding on the web, this is due to "Truss Uplift". Centex homes has a 10 year structual warrenty but would this be considered a structual problem or a cosmetic problem. We think that it's structual but need to know for sure before we turn in a warrenty request. I'm pretty sure, from past experience, that we will have to fight to get this covered under the warrenty if it is indeed a structual problem.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THIS PROBLEM IS CONSIDERED A "STRUCTUAL" PROBLEM????

Any help with answers would be greatly appreciated.
Jo


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Where are you?

Immediate reaction is that someone skimped on drywall nails or screws?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

sdsester said:


> Where are you?
> 
> Immediate reaction is that someone skimped on drywall nails or screws?


Or used too many where they should not have. Truss Uplift is a common occurrence, and it is countered by the judicious use of limited ceiling fastening near where walls intersect with the lid. Also (although often overlooked and ignored) the installation of special clips is sometimes called for (although not legally mandated) in those locations. (Google "Truss Uplift Clips") What this means is... good installers do it, cheap ones don't. And both are legally covered. Oddly enough, the guy who does use clips can sometimes get in trouble if they are not specified in the plans. Go figure!

Basically how these work is this:

With the use of the clips, the edges of the ceiling lids are firmly positioned along the walls. Fasteners ARE NOT installed in the ceiling drywall up close to the walls. (Don't hold me to this, but I think it's *about* seven inches (single fastener) to a foot (double fastenter) back that you are NOT to fasten.) What this does is allow the ceiling drywall to flex a little at the edges along the walls as the trusses rise and fall from Truss Uplift....... and Truss Uplift WILL happen. You can't stop it, but you CAN control its effect on the finish of your home.

Just a guess, but I would say this is may be a warranty issue involving unworkmanlike installation. But as I mentioned above, it also may NOT be. Your builder is legal UNLESS it was specified in your plans or specifications that clips were to be used.

This is why we all need to research, read everything, insist on the higher alternatives, and shop by builder reputation.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

sdsester said:


> Where are you?
> 
> Immediate reaction is that someone skimped on drywall nails or screws?


 
We live in Midlothian, VA.....right outside of Richmond


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Now, on another point.

Truss Uplift should only affect your edge cracking. Unless the walls were *improperly* fastened to the trusses, the door shutting should not have been affected by Truss Uplift.

Walls are to be flexibly fastened to the trusses (The fasteners slide up and down a little.) so that the wall will remain firmly anchored down to the floor when the trusses move up or down. (Basement walls work diferently, but we aren't discussing that here.)

Nor are the walls supposed to be wedged up tight under the trusses when they are installed. This is a serious structural no-no.

On these two points, you may have some grounds for poor workmanship.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Now, on another point.
> 
> Truss Uplift should only affect your edge cracking. Unless the walls were *improperly* fastened to the trusses, the door shutting should not have been affected by Truss Uplift.
> 
> ...


As far as the doors go, they were not off level when we moved into this house. I would think that a house this new would not have a problem with off-level doors unless there is a structual problem. We don't believe that this is a settling problem as there are no cracks in the foundation.

We've noticed over a period of time that the separation at the ceiling has gotten worse and now there are doors that don't shut and lock. This is not the only problem. There is a fairly large diaginal crack in the master wall and also has cracked on the master bath wall in the same place. This has been fixed 2x's by the builder, once with wire mesh (they stated at the time that it was cosmetic), and it has cracked again. They have also 'fixed' the door frame in the master bath which has lifted off the floor. Of course they 'fixed' it using caulk and that has now lifted further off the floor...Gezzzzzz. Every day I'm more and more convenced that we paid $365K for really crappy workmanship.

I know from dealing with the builder in the past, this will be a fight to get them to cover this under the warrenty. I just want to have my ducks in a row before I contact them so that I have some ammo when they start the "this is a cosmetic problem and not covered" line that I know they're going to use.... :furious:


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Truss uplift is a complex phenomenom that is apparently related to differential moisture content in the top and bottom chords of a truss. The reason most often cited is that the bottom chord is warm and dry in the attic since it is buried under insulation, while the top chord is cold and moist. The difference in moisture content is alleged to result in uplift of the center of the bottom chord, which results in cracking of the wallboard along the ceiling.

That said, it is not at all clear to me that your problem is truss uplift. From the description, you have issues not just with cracking of the wallboard near the ceiling, but you have doors that do not open, you claim that the framing is no longer level, and there is at least one wall crack that has been repaired. These symptoms would also be consistent with foundation settlement.

In order to determine the actual cause of the problem, you may wish to hire a structural engineer to perform a detailed survey of the house, and prepare a report on the cause (and recommended solutions) for your issues. This sounds like it is beyond cosmetic issues, and is likely beyond the capability of a home inspector to diagnose.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

It's not that the doors don't shut, they do for now. It's that the doors no longer lock because they are no longer level and no longer hit the strike plate on the frame. Out of 9 locking doors upstaira, 3 no longer hit the strike plate so therefore do not lock. And they are on opposites sides of the house.

Do you know what a structual engineer would cost...ballpark figure that it? 

Should we attempt to turn this in as a warrenty request to the builder to see if they will fix it before we put out the money for an independant structual engineer?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

JoJoinVA said:


> As far as the doors go, they were not off level when we moved into this house. I would think that a house this new would not have a problem with off-level doors unless there is a structual problem. We don't believe that this is a settling problem as there are no cracks in the foundation.
> 
> We've noticed over a period of time that the separation at the ceiling has gotten worse and now there are doors that don't shut and lock. This is not the only problem. There is a fairly large diaginal crack in the master wall and also has cracked on the master bath wall in the same place. This has been fixed 2x's by the builder, once with wire mesh (they stated at the time that it was cosmetic), and it has cracked again. They have also 'fixed' the door frame in the master bath which has lifted off the floor. Of course they 'fixed' it using caulk and that has now lifted further off the floor...Gezzzzzz. Every day I'm more and more convenced that we paid $365K for really crappy workmanship.
> 
> I know from dealing with the builder in the past, this will be a fight to get them to cover this under the warrenty. I just want to have my ducks in a row before I contact them so that I have some ammo when they start the "this is a cosmetic problem and not covered" line that I know they're going to use.... :furious:


Unfortunately, most building jurisdictions only consider exterior entry doors to be 'structural'. And that is usually only for fire code specifications. I know that's not something you want to hear, but it's the world we live in today. Although at least every door in a bearing wall SHOULD be considered structural. But they aren't, only the framing around them is. How they are hung or how they work seems to be of no concern to the inspectors.

If it's any consolation (and I know it isn't) you are experiencing nothing that is not common to most home buyers today. A very small minority of builders these days build really good homes. And most of them are exclusively in the 'custom' home market. The reason is that is the only sector in which they can afford the luxury of the time and expense required to do it all completely right.

It isn't right. It sucks. And even we builders hate it. But it has become a fact of life that not many Americans can afford to pay what it would cost to build the same kind of home you used to uniformly expect a few decades ago.

My insurance (just to be in business... not counting bonds) is $10,000 a year. My Worker's Comp insurance (additional, above General Liability) is often 200% of what a particular worker's wage is. Permits are getting higher and higher all the time. Architects and engineers gouge deeply into that 365k you paid. Excessive compliance for environmental complications are getting rediculous. More and more impact fees are levied on just about anything the government can think of to tax. A friend recently paid over $140,000 in 'traffic' impact fees for a drive-in he built. Why? Because that business would generate more tires rolling on our roadways to reach that Burger King. And it goes on and on and on. God forbid you are doing a project on the waterfront. The extra fees can reach into the millions for a moderate townhouse project.

And we don't even need to look at the tremendous rise in material costs over the past few years.

So, unfortunately, to try and keep his own house and a couple of nicer cars the average contractor begins to pare back on some of the quality. And it snowballs. A few years down the line, he's turning out a mere shadow of the houses he used to build. And if you, the consumer, cannot write a check for four or five million for a custom house, you get what's being cranked out today in the 'normal' or 'average' market.

This is certainly no excuse for poor workmanship.... but the facts are that it is often a very real *reason*.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

By the way, while this is not in any way, shape, or form a technically approved test, you can do a quick and easy evaluation of your settlement possibilities.

If you have hard floors in the questionable areas, spilling a handful of children's marbles out on the floor will tell you a lot about their level properties.

No, it's not scientific, but it's a good, ballpark indicator.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

Thank you for your honesty. My problem with this though is, as a comsumer, I don't expect 3.5 years in to have had all these problems that we have had with a brand new house. This cracking and separating is just the latest in a long list of problems that we have had and this is a national builder. 

We've had to have both full bathrooms completely pulled out due to incorrect installation of the tub and showers. One bath, the tub was sinking the other there was water leaking downstairs in the ceiling from an incorrectly installed shower stall, which in turn caused the familyroom ceiling to get wet and have to be replaced. We've had to have the carpet pull up upstairs and reinstalled because it was laid wrong. The steps on the deck had to be removed and reinstalled due to an issue with how they were attached. And the list goes on and on...

I can tell you this....we will NEVER buy another new house. We will stick with houses build in the 50's/60's etc. and re-hab it as we've done in the past. You expect to have problems with those houses, but not a brand new one.

The scary part is what else is going to go wrong with this house? This house that, due to the economy is worth between $75 and $100K less than what we paid for it


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

This may help in your understanding some comments given. Truss clips on page 41: Page 49 on settling …… 
http://books.google.com/books?id=iw...um=3#v=onepage&q=cutting floor joists&f=false

More on trusses and floating corners, page 268: http://books.google.com/books?id=1f...sult&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=collar ties&f=false

Be safe, Gary


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

JoJoinVA said:


> Thank you for your honesty. My problem with this though is, as a comsumer, I don't expect 3.5 years in to have had all these problems that we have had with a brand new house. This cracking and separating is just the latest in a long list of problems that we have had and this is a national builder.
> 
> We've had to have both full bathrooms completely pulled out due to incorrect installation of the tub and showers. One bath, the tub was sinking the other there was water leaking downstairs in the ceiling from an incorrectly installed shower stall, which in turn caused the familyroom ceiling to get wet and have to be replaced. We've had to have the carpet pull up upstairs and reinstalled because it was laid wrong. The steps on the deck had to be removed and reinstalled due to an issue with how they were attached. And the list goes on and on...
> 
> ...


I can't say I blame you one bit for the way you feel. I, myself, wouldn't buy a new house today except from a handful of individuals I know personally. And sadly, buying from a nationally known company means little anymore. I was once proud to work for US Home many, many years ago. A few years back, maybe ten, I had the opportunity to drop by one of their developments for a tour. (They now go by another name.) I was so disappointed. And it wasn't just the quality (or lack of) of their crews. Their Managers and Superintendents were a total shock to me. Barely more than children who obviously had never even built a doghouse before. They knew a computer, and how to jamb a schedule so tight no one involved could possibly do quality work, but they wouldn't have recognized a wall built upside down if it stood right in front of them. Worse, they didn't seem to care if things were right or wrong... just so they got past an inspection done by a city official who had been trained to look for about seven basic requirements.

I wish I could offer you some answers... or at least some hope. That's why I hang out over here. I absolutely love to see homeowners who want to get their projects completed correctly. But I honestly have to say you will likely have to steel yourselves for a fair bit more.

Not too proud to say that I am thankful I'm able to do mostly consulting work anymore... and an occasional cabinet or floor job for free for friends. Retirement isn't great, but there are the benefits of not having to sweat the pressure any longer.

P.S. Gary, who just answered you about the clips, is one of the few I would trust with my own work these days. :thumbsup:


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Regardless of the difficulty earning a profit in building houses in the current market, it still does not seem outrageous to expect a new house to meet code and have no structural, electrical or plumbing defects. Maybe it is out of the question, in which case I totally agree, I would never buy a new home if I believed that it was to be expected that within a few years there would be significant plumbing, electrical, framing or foundation issues.

That said, if you want to hire a structural engineer to evaluate the root cause of the cracking, I imagine it would cost somewhere north of $500. Least that is what it would cost around here. If you can work it out with the builder to have them repair the problem, that would seem to be reasonable, however if their position is that the problems are only cosmetic, and you want an independent opinion, the structural engineer would be the way to go. By the way, make sure they are licensed in your jurisdiction to perform structural engineering before you hire them, and make sure you understand exactly what you are getting (oral report, written report, deposition, court time etc.).


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Daniel is quite right in what he says should be reasonable expectations. Unfortunately, not everyone's ethics rise to, or remain at, the reasonable level. That's kind of the trouble with 'ethics'. They are situationally adjustable.

Let me give you a for instance, one that is encountered every single day in the now rushed construction world:

Concrete. In all its applications.

Starting at the foundation, three factors often fall victim to the headlong dash to beat the clock.

One, the footing is seldom properly excavated and prepared because to do so takes extra time. I can't remember the last time I saw a compacting machine run in a footer ditch. It still happens, I'm sure. I just seem to miss it when it does.

And secondly, many concrete placing crews slop up the mix so it will pour and level out faster and easier. This weakens the final concrete setting cure. Weakens your foundation.

The third? This happens at every single stage of concrete work, bar none. The necessary cure time is totally ignored... as though it didn't exist.
Footings get blocks or bricks laid on them within a few short days of being poured.
Slabs are being built upon, many times, the very next day after pouring. At best, seldom longer than a weekend goes by prior to starting the walls.

The reinforcing metal (a couple of different types) is in that concrete for a reason. And its location in the final setting is important. Many crews, although they know this full well, don't seem to think it really matters much. So, this too gets ignored. I cannot tell you the number of failed slabs I've been hired to remove where I found a good third of the reinforcing wire mesh (and sometimes the rebar, too) actually hanging outside the bottom of the concrete where it had been walked down into the dirt by the placement crews.

And just a couple of other masonry related items. Unless it happens to rain the night before, blocks don't receive any misting to ensure a correct moisture content for strong and effective installation bonding. Even if it's 96 degrees out, the blocks are just grabbed up and laid in the wall.

Interior strengthening runs of a wire ladder (Durawall) are required between block courses. Sometimes they get in, sometimes they don't. Corner ties (same idea) are seldom, if ever, used around here.

Even the interlacing of blockwork at a "T" intersection is often ignored or perhaps tied-in at only two or three courses.

Stucco. It bleeds lime for a while, and needs to be 'seasoned' before applying paint. This is usually achieved by the passing of time. Or at least by fully soaking the stucco wall with water, letting it completely dry between soakings, no less than three times. Think anyone does this anymore?

Think they do any of these things anymore?

Not often.

And why not? Usually one or all of three reasons. It isn't required by code (the great escape clause) and it just takes too long. Or it costs too much.

The list is long and staggering. Dozens and dozens of very detrimental shortcuts have become standard construction procedure today. And many of the workers and their supervisors honestly don't know any better.

It really is sad to say, but that's just the reality of house building today. It takes time and money to do it right. And neither is there to spare today in the mid-priced range.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

willie you make me feel good about my days as a commercial supe amd slowing the job to have things done right even to having the brick torn down and relaid with proper ties and bond. the one part of the original post was the door elevating away from the floor; I had a job i took over where we had wall movement similar to this.
after the drywall was removed we found walls were nailed to trusses but the bottom plate had no nails(maybe 2) and the wall was lifting. if they are seeing no sag at floor line maybe its all lift. are the door latches hitting the strikes high or low?
I have been around richmond and northern va hurry up build sites and it is a wonder to me that these problems arent more prevalent in the news. its all about time is money and to bad for the buyer. I never played well with these companies, different mindset from how I was shown to build. I always had respect for the process and pride in a finished product I didnt have to come back to. hope you folks find some answeres


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah. My wife says I'm a dinosaur, and just don't fit in anymore. I have lost a couple of jobs where I was working for someone else because they felt I was too picky about meaningless (to them) details.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

tpolk said:


> willie you make me feel good about my days as a commercial supe amd slowing the job to have things done right even to having the brick torn down and relaid with proper ties and bond. the one part of the original post was the door elevating away from the floor; I had a job i took over where we had wall movement similar to this.
> after the drywall was removed we found walls were nailed to trusses but the bottom plate had no nails(maybe 2) and the wall was lifting. if they are seeing no sag at floor line maybe its all lift. are the door latches hitting the strikes high or low?
> I have been around richmond and northern va hurry up build sites and it is a wonder to me that these problems arent more prevalent in the news. its all about time is money and to bad for the buyer. I never played well with these companies, different mindset from how I was shown to build. I always had respect for the process and pride in a finished product I didnt have to come back to. hope you folks find some answeres


The latch is hitting too low on the strike plate for the door to latch. There is a loud popping in the Master bath floor when you step in a certain place close to the door. 

I walked over to a neighbors house this afternoon (bare in mind these are ALL new houses, all built in the last 3-5 years) and their house is even worse than ours is. They not only have the sheetrock separation upstairs but also downstairs. THey have diagonal cracks in the sheetrock in almost every room in their house. Their house was built about a year or so earlier than ours so now I see what we have in store for us.

I'm getting my ducks in a row, I've also contacted Mike Holmes with the Holmes on Homes show. 

We refuse to be responsible for fixing this problem, and it is a 'problem' not cosmetic. I don't want the builder in here yet again slapping some putty on the cracks and separatation since we now know that this is just a temparary coverup. Not that they would do it anyway since we're past our 2 year warrenty period for cosmetic problems. If we had to fix this problem it would probably cost $10K or more. We didn't create this problem, it's crappy workmanship and shortcuts made by the builder. The only mistake I see that we made was buying a new house from a "Take every short cut we can" builder.


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## JoJoinVA (Jan 18, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Yeah. My wife says I'm a dinosaur, and just don't fit in anymore. I have lost a couple of jobs where I was working for someone else because they felt I was too picky about meaningless (to them) details.


Willie,
Dinosar or not, you're the kind of guy I'd want working on my house.. :thumbup: Too bad you don't live close, I know lots of people that are looking for good contractors for all sorts of jobs and we just don't know any. We have a great plumber and electrician that we use but other than that we use word of mouth.

My husband does HVAC for a living and he has the same mentalitiy as you. He never does work half @ssed....


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

lots of pics and document dates, conversations, repairs in hardbound journal. being a dinosaur is not for sissies


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## Big Bob (Jul 27, 2007)

yep, hire a good structural engr and ask him for a referral to a good construction problem lawyer. dollars to donuts they planted your house on some non compacted fill dirt & who know what else. It will take many years for the market price to get back to what you spent. Many more years, re-construction effort, and dollars to stablize your foundation. You will be left with a house that has a negative history and very hard to sell.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

JoJoinVA said:


> Willie,
> Dinosar or not, you're the kind of guy I'd want working on my house.. :thumbup: Too bad you don't live close, I know lots of people that are looking for good contractors for all sorts of jobs and we just don't know any. We have a great plumber and electrician that we use but other than that we use word of mouth.
> 
> My husband does HVAC for a living and he has the same mentalitiy as you. He never does work half @ssed....


 Thank you.

And do not discount the power and usefulness of word-of-mouth. It is the ONLY advertisement I have ever used since I got my license in March of '84.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

This sounds like settling to me. Cracks or lack of cracks in the foundation do not necessarily mean a house is or is not settling. I have seen homes where settling is occurring and the foundation had not cracked (the settling confirmed by an engineer). I have also seen many homes built over soil that was questionable as best. Some of these needed pumps running constantly to remove water rising to the surface from the springs underneath them in order to work on the house.

Like Willie, I have not seen a tamper (or plate compactor) on a residential site in a very long time. Not only should the area under the footers be tamped but also the back-fill around the structure in 6" lifts. I have also seen slabs commonly poured before any back-filling or floor framing is in place. None of this is good practice.

To add to the above, improper hardware and fasteners is somewhat common also, as well as improper spacing of fasteners. Then you have to consider that many homes are built to meet bare minimum standards whether this is reflective of good building practices or not. I have even seen cases of builders getting engineers to sign off on practices that are even below the minimum building code.

Alot of this is reflective of the low bid mentality of construction with everyone involved from the client to the builder and the get it done as fast as possible mentality of society in general. Contrary to what the producers of Extreme Home Makeover would like you to believe, you can not build a good quality home in a week. It takes time and money to build a good quality structure. Don't be fooled by the marketing of Holmes on homes either, those jobs he does are costly and subsidized by the show as most of the homeowners represented on the show could not afford what he does for them.

A structural engineer in this area can run you anywhere from $90 to $120 dollars an hour. 

Consequently on your door issue; in many production homes the doors are not nailed and shimmed properly and can settle out of square by means of their own weight. I have reset quite a few (read: whole houses) that had a few nails in the casing (read: 12 fasteners of the 18 guage brad type), no shims, and where not nailed nailed at the hinges or strike. 

Drywall fastened and glued within 6" of the top plate can crack and separate with seasonal changes and/or changes in the moisture content of the framing members. Drywall fastened to structural members such as headers or beams is also subject to cracking. 

Peers and columns can settle independently of a foundation which can also cause damage. Or they may never have been set properly from the beginning. As I stated earlier to build a good quality home takes time and money. Time and money that is not usually spent on production housing developments. Most likely the problems you are experiencing are being caused by a variety of issues that the builder will be able to navigate around by proving that the structures have passed inspection and meet bare minimum building codes. I have seen others in similar situations to yours and so far none have been successful in winning anything in court but I wish you the best of luck if you go down that path. However these problems will continue for others until the root of the problem changes: the lowest bidder wins mentality along with quantity over quality.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

On the doors, ARI... I just about dropped my teeth the first time I saw a 'carpenter' installing interior pre-hungs by doing nothing more than nailing through the casings. I didn't fire him on the spot, but the next day (after doing it right under my watchful eye), he didn't return.

I was superintending for a local builder in Manatee county a few years back. He is a good builder, and goes heavy on 
'green'. But he was building in someone else's subdivision. A big mistake. The developer filled in a swamp to build these houses. And a few months down the road, that sad fact began to make itself known. Anything that could, cracked and/or heaved. I thought our concrete contractor was going to lose his mind. I'm sure he lost his shirt since the builder laid it all off on him.

Disappointing thing is that I see no relief in sight. This society will NOT slow down, it seems, until that fateful day when it all comes crashing down around our heads. And that may be just around the corner.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Willie T,
Believe it or not the examples on the doors I cited where by far not the worst I have seen. I've actually seen some installed at such a severe angle the top corner of the slab was sticking out past the jamb casing several inches and the "carpenter" who installed them tried to tell the builder the doors where the problem! I've seen others that where shimmed but not nailed literally being held somewhat in place by caulk. Exterior doors nailed by the casing only with 16 penny nails. Doors with reveals so wide you could see into the adjoining hall or room. I don't get how so called professionals could really believe these installs where correct. Some of the worst installs I have seen have been on modular homes (and not necessarily the ones set by the manufacture either). 

It never ceases to amaze me what some people will try to use as a base to build on. I had a friend growing up who's house was knowingly built on swamp land that had been filled as you described. The county condemned their property for awhile due to septic issues. The leach field wasn't working properly, huh, go figure. The interesting part was the county approved it for a four bedroom home and claimed it originally perked for such. They had problems with foundation and slab as well but you are obviously aware of what kinds of problems they encountered there. 

I agree with your closing thought but would add structures do collapse periodically and sometimes frequently. Decks fail all the time. The levies gave way in Louisiana not because they didn't have the capability, know how, or technology to construct the correctly but because the state decided it was to costly to do so even though they where warned by the Army core of engineers that they would fail built the way they where done. I don't truly think the mentality will ever change regardless of those who are injured or killed. Those like you and me who place a high value in a job done correctly, safely, professionally, and above the minimum applicable standard are a dieing breed. It's all about time and money now; how fast and for how little. Why do you think sites like this and diy shows are so prevalent? It's not about the quality of the end result for most people these days but rather the bottom line. 

All right I'm done rambling.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

For us old timers, it's a sad thing to see. Quality used to be the first prioriity of a job, period. You didn't even ask. Quality came above all else.

I remember being a little shorthanded on a job one day , so the foreman was on the ground cutting for two of us kids (mid 20's) running redwood fascia on a second floor apartment building. I called out a measurement to him, and he shot back, "Is that with or without the paint?" I honestly turned back to recheck. We all laughed. But hey, it made sense to me, considering the quality of work we normally did. Marking with utility knives was standard.

About the only thing of pride I see anymore is when I occassionally pass one of the buildings I helped build way back then, and it looks today, just about as good as it did the day we finished it. And I'm talking 40 years later!

Ah well. As they say... "You can never really go back home."


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