# Are encapsulating paints worth it?



## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

I have a porch with lead based on it that I am painting. The whole thing needs to be primed anyway. Are the peel stop, lead stop etc products worth it? Or just good primer?


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## poppameth (Oct 2, 2008)

I haven't looked in to these too thoroughly but I did go over them briefly at the request of a customer looking to buy them. Most of the ones I looked at had one or two things that made them "encapsulating". They were thicker more rubbery products, i.e. elastomerics designed to glue down existing paint, and sometimes they had Bitrex, an additive that is so nasty tasting that anything trying to chew on it immediately stops. 

In my opinion they are mainly marketing hype. They are not that different from existing products but they cost a lot more because they have to pay the government to certify the product. Unless you think you'll have a child chewing on the porch I don't see the point in the bitrex either. I'd remove the lead paint before using the encapsulator anyway if I was that concerned about a child being near it. If you are talking floor surface, I'm not sure any of these products are designed to withstand foot traffic anyway.


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

I am removing all the loose....not all of it.. I could rebuild the porch easier...but not worried about the well adhered stuff....


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Peel Bond, peel stop and an encapsulating (for lead paints) are two entirely different problems with different technologies.

The main thing is when you scrape-sand etc- to contain any chips and dust- that is really where the problem is. The chances of someone gnawing on your deck is remote- but playing in the grass that is covered in lead dust is not.

Read this and learn a bit about the issue-
http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/steps.pdf


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

lead stop is for lead covering but I thought the premise was it would help bond the lead from future peeling also......I know the safety is real issue....just thought on porch with horizontal areas it might be a good idea.


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

so whats better for a porch? an encapsulating product or a peel bond type??


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Its an interesting question- because on a porch the paint also has to be strong enough to be walked on. I would thing Peel Bond would take a while to cure strong enough, dont really know the encapsulating paints. Do you have brand name- product that you're looking at?


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

Brushjockey said:


> Its an interesting question- because on a porch the paint also has to be strong enough to be walked on. I would thing Peel Bond would take a while to cure strong enough, dont really know the encapsulating paints. Do you have brand name- product that you're looking at?


 
The floor is actually ok. It the pillars and a knee wall all the way around. Lead stop is the only encapsulating paint I have seen.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

OK- So I'm trying to see if I can dig up some info on the pro board- In my mind any covering on an old lead based paint can only do 2 things- adhere really well and last. I am not sure what more an encapsulating paint does that a very good primer/ finish paint wouldn't do.
The purposes are different- but with further thought how they would get there would have to be similar. 
Googled Lead Stop, but besides the usual yada yada haven't found much good info.
I'll get back if I find something.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Data and tech sheet-
http://www.dumondchemicals.com/pdf/TDS/Lead Stop TDS.pdf

More info
http://www.hud.gov/offices/lead/lbp/hudguidelines/Ch13.pdf


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

thanks


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Got this reply on the pro board- pretty much sums up the diff:




> just finished talking with a couple of manufacturers about the encapsulating products. The major difference between a regular primer and encapsulation primers seems to be permeability.
> 
> It's my understanding that Encapsulation primers:
> 
> ...


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

but so whats better to use if anything besides just primer.....Not worried about chewing on it.....would much prefer it just stay stuck


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Brushjockey, I'm not addressing to or asking these questions of you. I realize you are only quoting what you learned. I'm asking rhetorical questions. 
I really don't see the value of these encapsulating products. Doesn't really sound like they offer much difference than standard primers, but they probably have a higher price, a price fueled by hysteria.

"just finished talking with a couple of manufacturers about the encapsulating products. The major difference between a regular primer and encapsulation primers seems to be permeability. 

It's my understanding that Encapsulation primers: 

1) do not breath where lead can migrate through the service

2) elongation

3) have a bitter additive to deter children from ingesting them.

Peel Bond is not an encapsulant and they have no desire to risk the liability to produce one." 

It's my understanding that Encapsulation primers: 

1) do not breath where lead can migrate through the service
How does lead migrate through a permeable surface? Permeability allows for vapor pass through, not particle. Even a lead chip, if not ingested, is harmless, this even according to the EPA. The lead is still trapped in the paint. What is a non-permeable coating blocking, lead vapors? 

2) elongation
There are primers with better elongation properties than others. The idea behind it is logical, but with proper prep, elongation becomes less necessary. 

3) have a bitter additive to deter children from ingesting them.
From what I understand, you can buy additives to get the bitter.

Peel Bond is not an encapsulant and they have no desire to risk the liability to produce one. 
Can you blame them. One of the things behind this new lead regime, that's not being discussed, is the chain of liability that will attach to all lead claims. Think of asbestos. The lawyers will be naming everyone attached as co-defendants in lead litigation, from the manufacturer of the test kits, to product manufacturers, to the painters, and everyone in between. That was probably more of a motivator behind this than safety, and you can bet the tort bar was all on board and active in the shaping of the policy. The suits against the paint companies are well underway. Of course, the government is looking for its cut, as well. They needed a new pie to divy up. The actual victims, as usual, will get very little.

I had some x-rays at the dentist today, and I asked the girl if she gets the hysterical set in there moaning about the danger of radiation from getting xrays. Absolutely, she said. There's no consoling them. I told her I might have pyscho-organic brain syndrome from breathing paint, she laughed. 
Organick, at the speed at which this porch is proceeding, old age should be more of a concern for you than lead.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

I totally agree with Joe. Couple of things to consider- 
you are doing this as a homeowner- you don't have the liability concerns that a pro or the manufacturer has. you just need something to do the job well.
What is up with migration? lead is an invisible moving force? Where is Ric when you need him!!
I guess all I can say is read between the lines.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> I totally agree with Joe. Couple of things to consider-
> you are doing this as a homeowner- you don't have the liability concerns that a pro or the manufacturer has. you just need something to do the job well.
> What is up with migration? lead is an invisible moving force? Where is Ric when you need him!!
> I guess all I can say is read between the lines.


BJ, did you notice I added to the top of my last post, in case you thought I was questioning you.
I agree with you here as well. HO's have no liability. But, I was told that they have no liability provided no one gets sick. If your child gets lead poisoning due to your actions, liability ensues. I guess that brings in Children and Youth police. "Read between the lines" is good. The new regime has turned painters into a real non-committal, non-involved group. When I was writing my article, I found it hard to get people to commit to anything, even at the government level. Straight answers are hard to come by.


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> Organick, at the speed at which this porch is proceeding, old age should be more of a concern for you than lead.



ummmm....its 35 degrees here


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

ok in all seriousness though....So encapsulating seems like a bit of a no go.....What about a peel stop type product? Do they help maintain old paint better than a straight primer?


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Peel stop or peel bond- two very different primers, that go after nailing down old paint in different ways.
Peel Stop is thin and penetrating, tries to work into all edges of old paint to close any openings and is a fairly flexable coating,so any small movement doesn'topen up as easily.

Peel Bond is a thick clear that is meant to be put on as thickly as possible, and will bridge those same cracks and irregularities, level out and soften rough edges.
I would think Peel Bond might be the better of the two for you.


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

thanks


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