# Smoke & Carbon Monoxide Detectors



## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

I'd like to put wireless smoke and carbon monoxide detectors in my home, and newer technology will make them ALL sound off, if one is triggered. So I was looking at this Kidde combination detector here (https://www.amazon.com/Kidde-P4010DCSCO-W-10-Year-Wireless-Combination/dp/B076X6J5CM). It requires the central RemoteLync hub to connect them all (https://www.amazon.com/Kidde-RemoteLync-Monitor-120V-Plug-in/dp/B00Y7OMI0U#customerReviews). So this looks like exactly what I need. However, the reviews for the RemoteLync are horrible (other shopping websites agree), talking about poor WIFI connectivity. 

Kidde seems to dominate this particular industry, so I'd like to ask what other alternatives might be out there to set this up in my home (i.e., other manufacturers, products, etc.)


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I'll add a question. Does wireless meet the code requirements for home protection. I was thinking that hard wired was to way to go to keep everyone happy.

I'll follow.

Bud


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## Nickd83 (Feb 5, 2020)

It seems, according to Kidde's manual, you do not require the Remote link gizmo, you can set them all up without it. That only seems to be used if you want to remotely monitor the system and incorporate other sensors/devices.

https://www.shareddocs.com/hvac/docs/2001/Public/02/Quick_Start_Guide_Kidde_Wire-Free_Alarm.pdf

As for the question of does a wireless system meet residential code, I dont know, but I do know they have commercial fire alarm equipment that is wireless, both indicating devices (smoke detectors, CO detectors) as well as AV devices (horn/strobes), so I can't imagine this wouldn't fly in a residential environment.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

In NY the code requires hardwired interconnected units in new construction or renovations when demolition allows for wiring. Otherwise in existing construction battery powered units are allowed but are not required to be interconnected. If they work individually like a stand alone unit and also wirelessly connect with others it exceeds code so it is ok. Wireless are not good enough in the instances I mentioned for hardwired units.
NY also requires smoke detectors with a permanent 10 year battery, without regard to whether they are hardwired. Stores can’t even sell detectors that are not 10 year battery type in NY after their stock is gone.
Most states have similar codes.


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## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

Nickd83 said:


> It seems, according to Kidde's manual, you do not require the Remote link gizmo, you can set them all up without it. That only seems to be used if you want to remotely monitor the system and incorporate other sensors/devices.


Thanks, I overlooked that small but important detail. I'm not so concerned about remote monitoring while away from my home. My main concern is having interconnectivity while the home is occupied. So therefore, it seems the Kidde detectors will work fine.:smile:


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## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

Folks, slightly different question...how many detectors do I need in my house? Yes, I understand the fire code dictates this, and I'm not looking to start a Code debate here, but rather glean insight from others who know best already and can save me the hassle of a Code research project.

I figured I would buy the same model, all at once, so they matched and communicated with each other (as opposed to buying them piecemeal over a few years and encountering product incompatibility). I ignorantly assumed each bedroom, open forum, living room, dining room, kitchen, stairwell, restroom, entry way, and basement needed their own detector. That tallies to 11 detectors, and at ~$50ea, that's ~$600 bill to swallow at once. My ever-loving wife asked if my tally was accurate and if that many were rationally needed. Yes, I know more can't hurt, but she and I want to be mindful of the cost as well. I'm curious what you folks can share about this.

Thanks in advance!


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Code in NY is based on the IRC so most states are the same or very similar.
The main purpose is to notify people who are sleeping.
Smoke detectors:
One detector in each sleeping room. 
One detector outside each sleeping room in proximity to each sleeping room. That means if there are bedrooms off a common hallway they can share one detector covering the requirement for outside each sleeping room.
At least one detector on each floor level. Does not include unoccupied attics.
Detectors frequently false alarm in shower rooms and kitchens, typically not located there. 
Photoelectric type are better for smoky fires and are not as prone to false alarms. Ionization are better for non smoky fires and are more common in residential use.
CO detectors:
House built before 1/1/2002:
One on each floor level containing sleeping rooms within 15 feet of the sleeping room door.
One inside each sleeping room that contains a fuel fired appliance.
One on the level of fuel fired space heating equipment.
House built on or after 1/1/2002:
As above plus one on each level with a fuel fired appliance. This means if your furnace is in the cellar and your bedrooms are on the second floor, your gas stove, dryer or fireplace on another floor will trigger another detector.
No CO detectors are required in houses without appliances that burn fuel, like all electric houses.
Most inspectors use the 15 foot CO rule for smokes, but that is not in writing.
I usually put bedroom detectors on the ceiling above the swing of the door. Then there won’t be furniture in the way when I test or service them.
Combo smoke/CO units work well when both are required in one place.
Throw them away and buy new every 10 years.
NY only allows units with 10 year batteries, stores cannot sell anything else. I think that is a state enhancement but it saves replacing batteries 20 times over 10 years.


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## Nickd83 (Feb 5, 2020)

Not up on residential code, but here's what I would do:
One in each bedroom (smoke alarm only)
One in the hallway outside bedrooms (smoke and CO alarm), depending on your layout, you may need 2, you want CO alarms no more than 15' from bedrooms.
At least one on each level (smoke and CO alarms)
I would also do a CO only (if they make them for this system) in the boiler room.

I wouldn't put one in a bathroom, these devices are not friends with humidity and water, and while I do agree that more is better, you certainly don't need them in the dining or living rooms. 

If they make a heat detector, I would suggest one in the kitchen, that way smoke from burning toast won't set it off every other day (at least it would in my house!). Otherwise, just one near the kitchen.

I found this on the NFPA website, scroll down about 3/4 of the way and it gives you an idea of what's involved with layouts.

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...oke-alarms/Smoke-Alarm-Installation-Guide.pdf


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## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

Hmm, interesting and helpful feedback. I'm curious what the logic is for excluding certain rooms. I understand some rooms (e.g., bathroom) may falsely trigger too often. But what is a fire starts there in the middle of the night. Wouldn't the sleeping occupants have a better chance of evacuation if they knew of the fire before it spread out to the other nearest detector?


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## Nickd83 (Feb 5, 2020)

I can't speak for the writers of the code, but usually the square footage is small enough that the alarm device would have sufficient time to warn the occupants before it got too out of hand. 

In the the residential work we have done (which is usually only on the high end, talking 6000 sq feet plus, and usually resigned to homes that are unoccupied most of the year) we installed commerical systems in lieu of a traditional smoke alarm system, as these homes are required by insurance to have monitored systems as well. We installed them to meet most commerical codes (detectors no more then 24' apart in hallways, low frequency sounders in sleeping areas, heat detectors in boiler rooms and other less occupied spaces), but if you're talking 1500- 2000sf living space, the previously mentioned layouts should suffice.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Nickd83 said:


> I can't speak for the writers of the code, but usually the square footage is small enough that the alarm device would have sufficient time to warn the occupants before it got too out of hand.
> 
> In the the residential work we have done (which is usually only on the high end, talking 6000 sq feet plus, and usually resigned to homes that are unoccupied most of the year) we installed commerical systems in lieu of a traditional smoke alarm system, as these homes are required by insurance to have monitored systems as well. We installed them to meet most commerical codes (detectors no more then 24' apart in hallways, low frequency sounders in sleeping areas, heat detectors in boiler rooms and other less occupied spaces), but if you're talking 1500- 2000sf living space, the previously mentioned layouts should suffice.


The listing of residential detectors limits how many can be interconnected. They will work if more are connected but the thinking is that they don’t want simple residential units in 50 room mansions. Large structures should have a commercial type system with a fire alarm control panel, monitored wiring, trouble signaling, and addressable detectors.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

A heat detector can be used in a kitchen. However, because of their slower response time, heat detectors are not considered to be life safety devices. A smoke detector in an adjacent room will usually alarm before a kitchen heat detector. If you have a really remote kitchen, maybe put in a heat detector.


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

Only heat detectors with 50' listed spacing can be used in residential (NFPA 72). The only 50' rated heats I ever saw were combination fixed temperature/rate-of-rise. The rate-of-rise can be problematic if placed too near an oven.
IMHO, kitchens are not a suitable environment for smoke detectors. I only installed them there at the customer's insistence, and then only with a signed and dated disclaimer. That disclaimer saved me a lot of headaches.


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## Nickd83 (Feb 5, 2020)

Old Thomas,

I agree, and another reason I could think of is trying to run around to 50 different rooms at 2 AM to try to figure out which detector went off also wouldn't be much fun either.🙄

As far as the heat, yes I did neglect to state it is NOT a life safety device. Only for property protection.

Gray hair- they do make fixed temperature heats, which, as far as I know, (and lord knows I'm wrong a lot, ask my wife) those also conform to the 50' spacing. I personally have a 135* fixed temp on my 8' ceiling four feet from my oven door and haven't had an issue yet, going on 3 years.


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## Nickd83 (Feb 5, 2020)

Actually, now that I finally finished homeschool for the day, I have an anecdotal story that pretty much takes a #2 over my advice on heats.

I was on my way back from training at 5PM on a Friday from Connecticut, at least 3 hours from home, when I get a text from my monitoring company saying my fire alarm is going off(I was a passenger, don't worry). I call home, my wife was making dinner and the Pyrex in the oven exploded and sent hot oil all over the burner. Smoked out the whole first floor. Smoke detector (photoelectric)
and the smoke alarm next to it around the corner both are activated. FD comes and has a good time with the big exhaust fans, took them 5 minutes to get there and 20 to back out of the driveway. I only have one detector on that floor, 2300 sf. house, so the moral of the story is that one detector on a floor in a residential environment is probably enough to get you out in time.


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## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

Thanks for this continued helpful dialogue.

Couple more questions:

Early in this thread, someone mentioned photoelectric vs. ionization smoke detectors, claiming the latter is more common in residential. How important is this detail in my purchase? It seems the Kidde models I was looking at are all photoelectric. 
I don't see any heat detectors in the Kidde "intelligent wire-free alarm" product lineup that I've been looking at. So I'm not sure I'll even take that route for the kitchen (I may just forgo the kitchen detector completely, at the advice of you folks). That aside though, can someone explain this "50 foot listed spacing" thing? What's that jargon mean? Does the detector need to be 50' away from the next detector?


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Photo are better for smoky fires, ionization are better for fires without early smoke development. Smoke is usually what kills. Common cheapie residential units are usually ionization, consequently they are more common. High quality commercial system units are almost exclusively photoelectric. I would not hesitate to buy photo.
Modestly sized residential houses where residential units are appropriate have units placed in accordance with my previous post. In an application that is too large for residential equipment, like an office building, mansion or public venue, where full coverage is necessary, spacing comes into play. In those cases spacing is a maximum, not a minimum. Detectors can be as close together as you want.


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## m_ridzon (Sep 29, 2017)

By the way, the size of the building has come up in a few comments, which makes sense. For whatever it's worth, I'm in a very modest 2-story home of 1100sf.


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## tonykakkar (Apr 21, 2020)

Read these reviews of the carbon monoxide detectors before you buy any random one.


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