# Help replanning foundation



## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Hi! I’m new and I need some solid advise for a 16x24 workshop shed I’m building. I’ve never done any kind of project such as this. I thought I would try to cut some corners to save on costs. There is no call for me to meet certain requirements where I live. Just get an electrician to inspect that when it’s done.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/qegxwpx.jpg

I was pretty pleased with myself until some people on another forum said that my design was pretty much gonna fall apart. Looking at it, they may be right. Let me start by saying that all my lumber is pretreated for the floor . I am using 3 rows of 2x4s to create 24” skids leveled on concrete padding. I originally had 4, but decided to incorporate a 5th beam and position the two end beams on the rim to support the weight of the structure. I also used 2x4s for the floor frame on 16OC and placed brackets in between every joist 3-4OC. I also doubled up the frame on the outer rim. I have 3/4 plywood to lay on that. I thought this would be enough strength for my woodworking endeavor. Everyone seemed concerned about my building being anchored, so I was going to use pretreated 4x4 post anchored With concrete in below the 12 inch frostline along the outer parameter of my structure. 

I know feel I’m spending more to make something work than to do it right, so I have decided to redo my floor frame with pretreated 2x6s. I’m going to move my 2x4 brackets into the 2x6 frame so as to not waste the material. Do you think that my anchor idea will suffice. If not, then....
I think I’ve decided to roll with the QuikTubes, thinking 10 inch diameter. There was this one guy who did it like this: 



But I’m not banking on that being good enough. If it is, that would save quite a bit…. It also seems that 3 beams is enough to support a building of that size spacing the piers in 6ft intervals, but I have a few questions. 

First, do these concrete piers need to have a post above them to connect at a 90 degree angle to the beams? Or is it alright to place the beams directly on the pier?

Next, What wood to concrete anchoring should I use? I am trying to cut costs as much as possible now more than ever considering the set back. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Simpson-Strong-Tie-4-in-x-4-in-G90-Galvanized-Wood-to-Wood-Cap/1002707316
I was considering these since it accommodates the post or beam. I seen these get put into the concrete before it hardened. This suffice? Cheaper way?

Third, will be 3 2×4s be sufficient enough for this project? If so, I’m considering running all 4 beams and doing 8 ft between piers on the middle two since they will not be bearing the weight of roof and ceiling. Or is mandatory to 4×4 or 6×6 beams.

I am currently over budget. I know what needs to be done if starting completely from scratch now, but would like to salvage as mush of my pretreated wood for the foundation(such as beams) that I can since non treated is cheaper to build going forward. Any advise is appreciated.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

What state are you located in?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

GA. Frost line is 12’


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i did 3 rows of 3 concrete piers. 4x4 treated = 3 rows, bolted down. 2x6 treated joists. treated plywood floor. if this blows away, it would be the least of my problems.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Do you think my 3-2x4 pretreated put together to make a skid is sufficient enough (instead of me using 4x4s)???

And how big was your building?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Do you think my 3-2x4 pretreated put together to make a skid is sufficient enough (instead of me using 4x4s)???
> 
> And how big was your building?


i cannot say. but i think they may be better "if" attached together well enough.

10x12


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I used 16” with 8” boards and staggered them, bolted them with Carriage bolts every 8” (at the ends of boards within skid, and then used 4’ deck screws on each side of skid.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

carriage bolts = galvanized ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Hmmm... to be honest, I’m not quite sure. Suppose that definitely matters. If they are not, I’ll replace them. However, I did put the screws every 12’ staggering them on front and back. Not really sure if the carriage bolts do much. Suppose if they rust that could be bad


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i am putting your pic here, if its rotated, could someone fix it for me/us ?! thanx


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Hmmm... to be honest, I’m not quite sure. Suppose that definitely matters. If they are not, I’ll replace them. However, I did put the screws every 12’ staggering them on front and back. Not really sure if the carriage bolts do much. Suppose if they rust that could be bad


are they kinda shinny or a dull grey ? yes, it makes a difference


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

how about more and closer pics ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Don’t know if this pic is much better...


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

No idea why these are coming out sideways?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

are you sure that is treated wood ? doesn't look like it.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> are they kinda shinny or a dull grey ? yes, it makes a difference


They were shiny


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> No idea why these are coming out sideways?


sometimes its this forum. for whatever reason, it likes to rotate the pics.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> are you sure that is treated wood ? doesn't look like it.












They better be!!! Lol
But for real. I’m pretty sure they are


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> They were shiny


shinny + treated wood = not good, they rust out.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> They better be!!! Lol
> But for real. I’m pretty sure they are


ok, they are just dried out good, and thats good.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

your conrete pads, how deep are they ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

My pads are only level. The anchoring came after I did what you see. So I first thought to use 4x4s concreted in 1.5 feet deep and place them on the end of all five beams spanning 6ft on the rims and 8ft in the middle. Then I realized that’s not so great an idea to put the 4x4s directly in the concrete. So now I’m leaning towards QuikTubes and ties


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

well, i think i am missing something here.

so, right now, in your pic, is all you have done so far, correct ? the skids are on pads that are not into the ground much, correct ? and you have yet to anchor anything down, correct ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Maybe I could use my concrete pads to fill my QuikTubes so I don’t have to mix as much concrete. lol


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> well, i think i am missing something here.
> 
> so, right now, in your pic, is all you have done so far, correct ? the skids are on pads that are not into the ground much, correct ? and you have yet to anchor anything down, correct ?


Correct. I simply leveled the pads digging where needed. Then I started the frame. I stopped everything when some informed me that I was an idiot. I pulled my frame off my beams to prepare my brother in law in bringing his Tractor/ auger. Red clay and rock suck to dig through. He should be over within the week.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

ok, so your replacing some of the pads with piers, good. you don't have to do all of them. say, 3 down each side and then 1 in the middle front and back, or there abouts. i just set my skids on the concrete and screwed them down with angle brackets. you could put anchor bolts in the piers while pouring, then bolt the skids to those.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

btw, there are anchor screws that go right in the ground, but with a lot of rocks, idk how those would go. and probably cost more than concrete


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I got to admit. It seems a lot easier to bolt them into the piers than it would be to lone up anchors I set when I pour. And for safe measure since the weight of the building is a concern on the rims, I believe I will still set 5 piers on the front and back and 3 piers on the two middle ones. Little concerned with it being 24ft long. If you all think it’s safe to go less, then I’m game. Costs, and the mixing and pouring of concrete I wish to keep to a safe minimal. It may be good to note that only the front is truly exposed to wind. My home is on the right side and there is big trees behind it


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> ok, so your replacing some of the pads with piers, good. you don't have to do all of them. say, 3 down each side and then 1 in the middle front and back, or there abouts. i just set my skids on the concrete and screwed them down with angle brackets. you could put anchor bolts in the piers while pouring, then bolt the skids to those.


https://www.lowes.com/pd/Simpson-St...ZMAX-174-Galvanized-Medium-L-Angle/1002624394

This work? Beams are 4.5 inches. Not sure if the overhang of beam would present problems down the road


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

the purpose of the piers is to hold it down during really strong winds. your pads are fine otherwise. so all the outside ones would be more than fine.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Wow. Alright. I’ll just plan 3 on each of the 4 beams. I may do 4 on the front so because it catches the blunt of the wind. You’re the best!! I thought the piers help support the weight of the structure. It was impounded in me that cutting corners on all of that was bad. I’ll roll with what you say since it’s what I wanted to hear anyways. &#55358;&#56611;....


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

what is the front, a long side ?

the piers do support the weight, but your pads also do that. but during really high winds, your pads won't do much. kinda like nailing a board, a 1 1/4" nail in a 1" board will help with sheer, but thats it. a 3" nail will prevent you from pulling the boards apart. see what i'm saying. 

"You’re the best!!" = thats what ALL the girls say !!!


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

......


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh, btw. you DON'T want to put those tubes all the way in the hole. cut them in half or 3rd. when pouring the concrete, put some in up to the bottom of a cut tube. put tube in and fill the tube. know what i'm saying ?

also, before you pour make sure you have your string lines set where you want them to keep things lined up and flat. you do have a string level, don't you ?!


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I don’t have a string level. I was going to cut them according to the size I need to get down below the frost line and that’s it. Each tube should yield 3 piers. I’ve been using a 4ft level. Was thinking about doing the same. Not to mention the pads are going to be right next to each pier to give me a reference point.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I don’t have a string level.
> 
> 
> I was going to cut them according to the size I need to get down below the frost line and that’s it. Each tube should yield 3 piers.
> ...


get one and some good string, $10 maybe. then watch some you-tube. 

that should be fine.

i would replace the pads, take them away. the auger will probably dislodge them anyway. maybe put them where you think you will have heavy stuff in there when your setting up the space to use. 

i have to go. will be back later


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

8 inch diameter on my concrete tubes good enough? Or should I go 10 inch?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Well. Turn of events. Auger wouldn’t go deeper than 9 inches into the ground. Some parts only 4 inches. Ugh.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Can't really follow where you guys are at now, but I think you are going 2x6 joists and some poured piers. 

This 16x24 "workshop" is more than a 10x12 shed. Sure, you can float it on skids, but what will it be used for? Any woodworking equipment? Heavy? Lumber storage? Tractor? Height of roof? Finishing some inside and with electric + HVAC?

Georgia rains and water sitting on clay, do you want to scrape the organic off and keep the moisture at bay with VB or gravel? If you are doing some piers, then do all of them, none of the patio blocks you have stacked under the beams.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Apparently the piers are a no go. Can’t get deep enough. Slab seems only way to go. The pricing I’ve heard for a 16x24 slab is quite high. Suppose I could try to DYI it. Ugh


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

what are you hitting, rocks ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Yup. He drilled for a hour in one spot trying to get the auger deep enough to catch. Only made it 8 inches tried a few more spots. No go. 

My idea now is just to make a cinder block foundation, drive some rebars 6-12 inches (however far they will go) every other block and fill them with concrete. I will either just run them straight down each beam, or maybe around the perimeter and just use the concrete pads in the middle beams. Thoughts on this? I’m honestly about over it and couldn’t care less whether that’s good enough or not. Any advise is appreciated.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

then just leave what you have and move on. can't do something about something you can't do nothing about.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

are these large rocks ? = 1' + or a bunch of smaller ones


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

does your house have a basement ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I believe they are large. I live on red clay and anytime I try to dig I have to break up rock. I didn’t really know how bad it was. I figured I big auger like that would get it done. But I was wrong. Is my cinderblock idea sound?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I believe they are large. I live on red clay and anytime I try to dig I have to break up rock. I didn’t really know how bad it was. I figured I big auger like that would get it done. But I was wrong. Is my cinderblock idea sound?


well, what you could do, kind of a pita. dig until you hit rock/s, clean the rocks. maybe drill into a large rock and put rebar. then put a new concrete pad over that. 

blocks, idk, but doesn't sound good to me.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Well.. I just had a concrete referral call me back. If I do the prep (Level, remove organic and frame work) for the slab and all they got to do is pour and level it… $1500. Considering at that point I don’t have to insulate or frame a floor, that sounds reasonable to me.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

a slab is good. but get it in writing exactly what they are going to do. then you need to ask here what you need to do.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ok. I said I would do all the prep. He just needs to come pour and finish. Here is where I’m at:
1) remove organic and level. Ground slope is roughly a .33 inch raise per foot. Can’t decide whether to dig out high side or fill low side. 

2) digging a foot wide trench 6 inch niches deep around the perimeter and placing two rows of #4 rebar (On seats) in the footer trench. The bars come in 20 ft and 10 ft... don’t know if it matters that they aren’t one piece of if I short it on the ends... or do they need to be continuous and bent around the corners? I also haven’t figured out the tie wire thing, but it’s cheap enough to not skip. 

3) building the frame to be level and square 4 inches above the 6 inch trench. (Considering 5 inch). I have a bunch of 2x4s. Figured I could Put two together to make it 7inches wide and not have to buy 2x8s... but then again do I want to ruin those since I can salvage some of it for framing the walls.

Now... cost is really really becoming an issue with all this. But it is what it is. I suppose I would be stupid not to buy the 750 square ft of mesh. I did see 400 square feet of some galvanized wire for $80. But I don’t know if it’s specifically for concrete slabs.

Gravel is also a concern. He said I really didn’t need it when I told him about my clay and rocky soil, but the internet seems to differ in opinion. Gravel also would save a lot of back breaking by leveling the low end instead of vice versa. My truck is a 5ft bed. I honestly don’t know how much gravel I could get in a run. Think at least a ton? If I could reasonably pick it up myself, 2 tons of crush and run only cost me about $100 gas included. 

I have tons of other questions but we can start there.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

1) Sounds like a labor vs. cost decision - cutting down is more labor (from the way you describe it, _alot of labor_), but filling costs money for crushed rock to backfill it. Only you can decide where you want to draw that line, and it's not an all one or the other proposition - you can cut some and fill some.

2) It makes it stronger if you bend them around the corners. Whether you need to or not is hard to say without alot more info, but lacking that, I'd recommend it. In typical concrete, overlapping the bars about 15" will make it behave as a continuous bar.

3) If you wrap the 2x4s in plastic sheeting, you can still use them for framing later.

Galvanized wire mesh will work fine in concrete. It will function the same as plain steel mesh.

Pouring a concrete slab on clay is mainly a concern if 1) Moisture gets under the slab and 2) you don't reinforce it. So add the mesh, and build it high enough to grade a slope away the the foundation so that water doesn't pool anywhere within 4 or 5 ft of the foundation. Keep the topsoil you strip off from where the foundation will be, and use it to build the berm around the foundation. 

The volume won't likely be the limit for your truck, unless it's a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck; it'll be the weight you'll have to watch. At 5 ft by 5 ft and 1 ft deep, you're at nearly a cubic yard of gravel, weighing around a ton and a half. Check the payload limit, so you don't ruin the suspension or wheel bearings. There's some cushion in the rated capacity, but I wouldn't push too far beyond 130% of the rated payload.

Btw, to avoid confusing people 5 feet is abbreviated as 5', and 5 inches is 5".


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

1) found a friend wil bulldozer. Not great enough to level that great. But saves my back. 

2) only additional information I got... just a basic, insulated, climate controlled building to house woodworking equipment. Nothing too crazy. Only one story. 

3) awesome

4) my brother in law said he has some free chain link fence. Said more than enough to cover my form. Considering you said gal steel was fine, suppose that’s all the same?

My yard actually slopes down. So it’s almost as if it’s sitting on top of a very slight hill. No water will pool around it. And it’s mostly rock. So with what you said, I can go light on the gravel

My truck can pull 7400 lbs. sounds like 1.5 tons will be plenty considering I’m lowering the slope. 

And sorry for confusing. Got it. 

I want to thank everyone for their time and knowledge, and both hold their weight in gold


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

these guys can say if i am right or wrong. but idk if i would remove much of any of the soil there, other than the outside where the footing part of the slab will go deeper. this way, the slab will be higher than grade and less work


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> these guys can say if i am right or wrong. but idk if i would remove much of any of the soil there, other than the outside where the footing part of the slab will go deeper. this way, the slab will be higher than grade and less work


So you’re saying if possible, maybe go about it half way. Give it a shave and then maybe only lower that side 2 inches and raise the other 4 inches.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

1) the bulldozer will make a HUGE difference. If you can keep it around long enough to spread the crusher run base (material as it comes out of the rock crusher - good stuff), it will make leveling alot easier.

2) the strength required at the corners is more about the loads imposed specifically at the corners. It's more a function of how the framing of the walls is done, than the load in the building. Since it's "climate controlled" you shouldn't have any problems with frost heave or heavy snow loads, so the foundation will most likely be fine either way. That said, it's not that hard to throw a #4 bar in a vise or a hole in your truck bumper and put a bend in it, either.

4) Chain link could have too small of openings for a typical slab pour. Between the size of the largest rock in typical readi-mix (1 1/2") and without vibrating it, you'd likely end up with alot of voids under it. The concrete would mostly end up sitting on the mesh, rather than flowing through it. I wouldn't use it, unless the concrete is a mix with 3/4" max aggregate size and it will be vibrated when it's poured, neither of which is typical for a slab on grade.

Sounds like all you'll need the gravel or base material for is whatever leveling you want to do to save concrete. If it's going to cost you $100 a yard to get the base material there, you may not want to bother, if the concrete prices there are similar to here (about $110 / CY). If you can get a bigger truck to the site, you might see what it would cost to have a few yards delivered. 

Don't confuse towing capacity with payload capacity. My truck can tow 5500 lbs, but the payload (the weight you can put on the rear axle) is only 1800 lbs.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> So you’re saying if possible, maybe go about it half way. Give it a shave and then maybe only lower that side 2 inches and raise the other 4 inches.


I'd endorse that approach, assuming the 2" gets you below any grass and soft organic material, into the hard clay.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

your grade on the high side, i would slab at least 3" above there. then keep it level over onto the low side = 6" 8" 12" above grade = so be it. 

your grade, from one end to the other, how much difference ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

6 inches. Again. Really trying to cut some costs. Don’t know if I want to have to buy that much gravel if at all possible.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> 6 inches. Again. Really trying to cut some costs. Don’t know if I want to have to buy that much gravel if at all possible.


It's not really that much gravel. Assuming the slope is fairly constant, if you remove 2" of grass and organic material from the entire area, then go 2" more on the high end, you'll only need a couple of yards of material to level it. You'll also have about 1/2 yard of clay you're scraping off, which I recommend you use to fill the areas around foundation on the low side to start that slope away from the foundation, and then finish it out with the topsoil you removed.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Again. Really trying to cut some costs..


you are talking to Mr Frugal right here :yes:
but there is a saying = you want to play, you got to pay. 
and if you are like me, once its done you will basicly forget the cost, it will be "that" worth it.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Gotcha. Two truck loads should do it then. 

I totally have typed a really long response twice and work gets me distracted. It’s annoying. Busy day.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh, don't forget your anchor bolts !


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

You’re funny

Or maybe your not being funny... can’t decide on single bottom plate or double for wall frame. Also know nothing about which anchors to get or how far I place them. Wonder if I can rent one Of those gun thingamabobs that anchor the frames in place. 🧐

But that’s later. 

And it’s more of a tractor with an attachment than a bulldozer. He said it’s not very accurate at all, but he could definitely loosen a lot of it for me to move it around as needed. Wish the damn thing dig trenches. Lol


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

This work for mesh? 

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...x-50-ft-galvanized-poultry-netting-hn48050120


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> This work for mesh?
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...x-50-ft-galvanized-poultry-netting-hn48050120


Again, the openings are too small (and it's not very strong). You'd have to pour an inch or so of concrete, then lay the wire in it, and then pour the rest, all before the first inch or so starts to set up. You could use 4" x 4" fence wire, but I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than that.

You want either a couple rolls of mesh like this, or some panels. You'll need about 400 square feet.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

For the rebar around the footing, I also noticed Menards has fiberglass reinforcing bars cheaper than the steel and fiberglass corner bars (since you can't bend the fiberglass bars).


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> You’re funny
> 
> Or maybe your not being funny... can’t decide on single bottom plate or double for wall frame. Also know nothing about which anchors to get or how far I place them. Wonder if I can rent one Of those gun thingamabobs that anchor the frames in place. 🧐
> 
> ...


serious, but in a funny way :smile:

single for bottom, double top.

they are just galvanized bolts with a bend on the bottom. you have to figure out your wall framing, then put them in the concrete in between bays and sticking out about 3". i'm not sure of code, but i think 5' apart is good.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

HotRodx10 said:


> Again, the openings are too small (and it's not very strong). You'd have to pour an inch or so of concrete, then lay the wire in it, and then pour the rest, all before the first inch or so starts to set up. You could use 4" x 4" fence wire, but I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than that.


when i did concrete 100's of moons ago. we would just lay the mesh down. then when pouring, we had a long hook tool that would pull up on the mesh and center it in the pour..


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> This work for mesh?
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...x-50-ft-galvanized-poultry-netting-hn48050120


NOOOOOOO !!!!!! = waist of money and time. just ask your concrete guy what to use. he may tell you where to get a deal on it.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Ri...chor-Bolt-128HGAB1/202090703?modalType=drawer


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Oh... I thought I anchored walls afterwards. Suppose it make sense to do it before ����*♂

And he did. But it pains me to spend $150 on a roll when I only need half. Shopping around now that I know the specs I need


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

you could do it after = more work and money. 

what about the mesh mats ?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> it pains me to spend $150 on a roll when I only need half.


Yeah, if you can find the 5' x 50' rolls and get 2, that will work (500sq. ft). Should be able to get 3 rows across out of 1 roll (16' x 3 = 48') and the other 2 rows out of the second roll. The panels are easier, because you don't have to flatten them, but also about $50 more than the two 50' rolls to get what you need (about the same as the 150' roll, though).


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> it pains me to spend $150 on a roll when I only need half.


Yeah, if you can find the 5' x 50' rolls and get 2, that will work (500sq. ft). Should be able to get 3 rows across out of 1 roll (16' x 3 = 48') and the other 2 rows out of the second roll.

However, the panels are easier, because you don't have to flatten them, and cheaper than the rolls, at least from Menards. 12 of the 4'x8' panels would be just right, assuming the 16' x 24' are the outside foundation dimensions.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I wish we had a menards where we live


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

If you look at the whatever home improvement / big box stores you have around, you'll probably find something similar. I haven't handled too much of the rolled remesh, but enough to know if the panels aren't alot more expensive, fighting with the rolled isn't worth the hassle.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Should I be concerned how difficult it may be to driver stakes into my crappy soil for this form?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Should I be concerned how difficult it may be to driver stakes into my crappy soil for this form?


yes. they need to hold back the concrete. have you tried yet ? you may have to put a kicker on them.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I know to dig 3 inches down I had to have a mattic and hand pick. My soil is terrible


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Seems like I could put some kind of drill bit on my impact and drill pilot holes


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

if you have a piece of rebar, try driving that in, see what happens. if you can get them to go, buy a bunch, just to help hold the forms back. then clean and return them.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Lmao!


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

If anything... I got two half’s of a 16x24 frame built out of 2x4s... I’ll just prop them up against the frame as a kicker on two sides with concrete blocks standing up between them and 2/4 sides is done


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Do these sheets of mesh need some sort of support for when the concrete is poured? Or just tie them?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Do these sheets of mesh need some sort of support for when the concrete is poured? Or just tie them?


call your guy and ask. i bet he says they will pull them up as they go. otherwise how are they going to walk around on barely supported mesh.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ah! Gotcha. I’m trying to not bug this guys too much. I think I got enough to get started. Thank you all for all your help. Crossing fingers it all comes together smoothly


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Lmao!


hey, whats so funny :vs_laugh:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Ah! Gotcha. I’m trying to not bug this guys too much. I think I got enough to get started. Thank you all for all your help. Crossing fingers it all comes together smoothly


bug him. he would rather have you bug him, then he show up and the job is all FUBAR'd. the better you do, the easier for his crew.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

wth is a mattic ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Fix'n it said:


> bug him. he would rather have you bug him, then he show up and the job is all FUBAR'd. the better you do, the easier for his crew.


oh. and it shows you care


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

you know what i would like to see = a hole dug out so i can see what is down there.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I will when the work gets to that point. I’m more building a material list and planning now. These rebars really got to overlap 44” if they touch?!? Even for a small slab?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

44" ? where did you get that ? 4" is fine and wire them together. same for the mesh.

btw, how thick is the slab going to be ? at least so far


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I read that somewhere. 18” if the bars don’t don’t touch. 44” if they do. I’m thinking 2 inch of gravel. 4” concrete. I was thinking going 5.... but this footer thing is gonna eat more mix. About another 1.5 cubic yards


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I read that somewhere. 18” if the bars don’t don’t touch. 44” if they do. I’m thinking 2 inch of gravel. 4” concrete. I was thinking going 5.... but this footer thing is gonna eat more mix. About another 1.5 cubic yards


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Also, does a wood frame need to go inside such a small footing trench? Or can I just let the clay be the mold and only have the 6” frame hanging above?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I read that somewhere. 18” if the bars don’t don’t touch. 44” if they do.
> 
> 
> I’m thinking 2 inch of gravel. 4” concrete. I was thinking going 5.... but this footer thing is gonna eat more mix. About another 1.5 cubic yards


if i am understanding that correctly = that doesn't make any sense,. you have a welder ? weld them together. 

that sounds fine.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Also, does a wood frame need to go inside such a small footing trench? Or can I just let the clay be the mold and only have the 6” frame hanging above?


you have to frame what is going to be above grade, otherwise its going to look like poop. and the wider it is under the frame, the stronger it will be, and the more concrete is going to be used. i hope he looks at the job before he orders the load. 

can the truck get back to the slab ? septic tank anywhere ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh, you do know the top of the framing is the height of the slab, right ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I do. But the footers have to be 6” deeper than the slab for the footers. I didn’t know if I needed to line it with a wood frame as well or if I could simply just pour it with the clay walls (so to speak). Sorry. I know nothing of correct terms. I’m learning everything from scratch and been banging my head against the wall for weeks. But I’m determined to get it done. I never started this project with the intent to be a up to par and code construction worker. It was only to get me a space to start a hobby. But it’s been impounded how important this part is and I’m trying to find that sweet spot of doing it right and not going bankrupt.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Thank you all for your patience. I’m sure all this to some is like pulling teeth. Almost wishing I would have went smaller on my desired building so I could do things differently. But I’m too stubborn and won’t let this beat me. Lol


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I read that somewhere. 18” if the bars don’t don’t touch. 44” if they do.


You were misinformed. The lap length (the distance the bars have to overlap to have full continuity as if they were one bar) for a #4 is less than 2 ft (unless they're less than an inch from the edge of the concrete). As I said before, for your situation, the required lap is about 15".

Fyi, if the bars are touching or within 6 bar diameters (3" for a #4), that is a standard lap (what I referred to above). A non-contact lap, where the bars are farther apart, requires a slightly _longer_ lap. Generally the increase is about equal to the distance between the bars. So what you read was wrong on several levels.

Where bars are not lapped at all, and the force in the bar is transferred to the concrete, rather than another bar, the embedment length is shorter, but confinement of the concrete is required (it has to be held together by alot of concrete or reinforcement surrounding the bar).


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I will when the work gets to that point.


i think that time is NOW. this is by far the largest hurtle you have, you need to start working out a solution.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

To answer a couple other questions, the mesh panels/rows should be tied together or overlap a little (an inch or 2 is sufficient).

Welding the bars together is way more trouble than it's worth, since a 20' bar is less than $10, so less than $0.50/ft. Overlapping the bars by 15" and tying them together take 2 minutes and costs about 50 cents (you'd have to lap them about 4" for the weld, so less than a foot difference).

Pouring the concrete in the footer trench against the clay is fine. Actually, it's better that way. You only need to form up above the ground.

I recommend driving #3 rebar to support the forms. In the ground you describe, going as deep in the ground as the forms are above ground should be sufficient, so if you need 6" forms, a 12" rebar should be enough. The 1' lengths at Home Depot are $1.25. If you want to save a few bucks, get a 20 ft length for $6 and chop it up. Someone suggested buying them, using them, and returning them; I wouldn't count on being able to do that, since you're likely to mushroom the end getting it driven into the ground.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Ri...chor-Bolt-128HGAB1/202090703?modalType=drawer


Ok. Got 22 bolts. My frame will be 8ft and 16ft 2x4 on the long side and simply a 16 ft on the short sides. So I fogured I need 22 bolts. (16ft walls where I plan to put bolts: 1, 5.5, 10, 15 foot marks so they are within one foot from the end of the stud. Then centered the rest within 5 ft intervals. On the 24ft walls. Using same intervals on back wall with no door on the 16 ft. Then figured I’d place a bolt at the 17, 20, and 23 mark for the 8ft 2x4 finishing the wall. For the side with door... figure each side of door will be approximately 10ft. So: 1, 5, 9 ft marks on each side from the ends. 

That sufficient? 

Also, 10 inch anchors work? All they had. 8in sold out


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ok. When I first spoke with my concrete guy, I told him that I needed a slab foundation for a 16x24 outdoor workshop I was building. I told him I wouldn’t mind forming it and he quoted me for 5 tons of cement and finish (4.75 needed for simple slab odor 16x24 dimensions) Later when I called him asking about footers he said he thought I only wanted a slab and that what I was mentioning was for a house foundation. He said it’s all about how far I want to take it and gave me instructions to do what I brought up.

My neighbor just came over today as I was cleaning up my failures, salvaging my lumber, and loading up my returns of material for refunds. I told him what I was doing and asked him if he could help me bend the rebars for the footers since he is a metal worker in his garage. he seemed to know a lot about this and the soil for my area (which I will send you a pic of a dig hole tomorrow fix). He said I don’t need footers. For what I’m doing. He said that if anything, buy some top soil and compact it to lay a pad as my grade raised a about 3 inches to make sure I don’t have any water issues. Said I could do all gravel but dirt is cheaper, then 2 inches of gravel compacted, and then Build a simple 4” frame sitting on my gravel with using mesh and I won’t have any problems since our soil is so full of chert, and movement and expansion aren’t as much of an issue. He said that only if I was putting tractor, cars, etc would this even be an issue. Apparently the same concrete contractor I am getting to do the job is also a friend of his. He actually said his name before I did. I tried calling the contractor today but no luck reaching him. 

I also then started researching this on the internet and many places seemed to state that buildings 400 square feet or under do not require footings (even by the “code”) my building will be 384 square feet. 

Thoughts on all of this?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> you know what i would like to see = a hole dug out so i can see what is down there.


https://www.diychatroom.com/members...639-4dc2b90c-fdad-42a0-b796-e02263d21797.jpeg

There it is. That’s only about 4” deep


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Just to note... I think soil isn’t a very good idea. Maybe I should just use crusher run and compact it to level and make 3-4 inch base. But I don’t know. 

Also: thoughts on expansion joints and controlled joints for my slab?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i find it odd they say no footer, i would want one anyway, down onto that rock. 

i would not put dirt, dirt is not solid. as was said, more concrete may be the same price, and easier, than rock fill. 

my garage is about the same size as your shed, the slab is awesome, knee walls and all. 


i have no joints, one big sold slab. but it does have those troweled in lines where it cracks, that is what they are there for.


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## Highlander86 (Aug 14, 2017)

Be aware that COVID-19 has created a lumber shortage and some boards may be hard to acquire. You might want to see if you can get all of the lumber you need before commencing construction.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

My hands hurt... thank god for my wife helping. That sucked. Tomorrow it’s turf and a little leveling. Then it’s easy peasy


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## Highlander86 (Aug 14, 2017)

What does your city building code allow for a footer? Do you have to apply for a building permit? My neighbor recently built a large shed and codes here require that large bolts be installed prior to pouring a concrete slab so the building is securely anchored to the slab.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

looks good. how much above grade is it going to be ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Highlander86 said:


> What does your city building code allow for a footer? Do you have to apply for a building permit? My neighbor recently built a large shed and codes here require that large bolts be installed prior to pouring a concrete slab so the building is securely anchored to the slab.



The only code where I live seems to be “get r done” and call the electrical inspector once it’s wired. Seems odd, but it’s accurate. And I’m already planning to put in anchor bolts when the slab is poured.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> looks good. how much above grade is it going to be ?


I’m a dummy with this stuff in some ways. Not quite sure what you mean... but I’ll take a crack at it. I’m going to remove the organic which may take about another inch off. There is a slight slope. Looks like I’ll be having 2” crusher run on the high points and 4” on the lower ends to level it. That should put my footers right at 6+” deep and 12” wide (as the concrete guy suggested).

All and all, my slab should be 4” above the ground at least... more on the raised lower side


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I’m a dummy with this stuff in some ways. Not quite sure what you mean...
> 
> All and all, my slab should be 4” above the ground at least... more on the raised lower side


"grade" is the surface of the ground around your slab, what you walk on. so, it will be 4+" above grade. did i explain that ok ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Perfect... is that good? I’m also thinking about spraying weed killer on my ground after I get up the grass for any roots I may have missed. That neccessary?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

if i remember correctly, you said it was on high ground ? then yes 4"+ is fine. 

i wouldn't spray anything, no need. but what i would do, is after the crusher is put down, compact it as best you can. and i wouldn't worry about roots, unless its a live tree close by, and i would deal with that outside of the slab area anyway.

when are you going to start framing ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I am renting a plate compactor next sat


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I am renting a plate compactor next sat


how much ? just for that ? may be a little overkill.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Boom!

And might as well after all this. Lol


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

So I was going to get started on grabbing some gravel. There’s two close by hardware stores. The one open doesn’t have Crusher Run, but it has 1/2 inch lime stone. It’s also cheaper. So my questions are this: 

1) can I use this for grading for my slab? Does it compact?

2) could I even use a mix of both? Maybe use the limestone to level out my base? And then use a level of crusher run over it?

3) or should I just be patient and use all Crusher run? 

And I’ve got most of my frame for the concrete form completed. Of course it will need some tweaks after I lay the gravel down and use a trust old line level (which I’ve never done either) lol. If you mean framing the walls, I have already purchased my 2x4x9s for my walls and roof. Suppose that’ll begin once the slab is poured and finished. IM STOKED!!!


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> So I was going to get started on grabbing some gravel. There’s two close by hardware stores. The one open doesn’t have Crusher Run, but it has 1/2 inch lime stone. It’s also cheaper. So my questions are this:
> 
> 1) can I use this for grading for my slab? Does it compact?
> 
> ...


You don't have a local sand&gravel supplier, highway construction contractor, or landscaping supply? Hardware and big box stores are usually quite a bit more expensive. If you haven't already, I suggest doing a web search for local aggregate suppliers. Also, maybe check with local ready-mix concrete suppliers, who may also supply base material, but if not will be able to tell you where they get their aggregate for the concrete.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

As weird as this is... my ace hardware sells crusher run by the scoop for $23.99. It is equivalent to 3/4 ton. I have to pick it up myself 

The local gravel supplier sells crusher run for $43 on ton and delivery is $75 for whatever I order. Riddle me that Batman!


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> As weird as this is... my ace hardware sells crusher run by the scoop for $23.99. It is equivalent to 3/4 ton. I have to pick it up myself
> 
> The local gravel supplier sells crusher run for $43 on ton and delivery is $75 for whatever I order. Riddle me that Batman!


That is strange. Well, I just wanted to alert you to some options you might not have looked at, but it sounds like you've checked around. I assume you've checked the payload capacity of your truck to be sure you're not going to overload it; 1500 lbs shouldn't, unless it's a compact.

I suggest you consider a truck bed unloader, like this Harbor Freight one. The capacity is supposed to be 1 ton, but I was able to handle 1.3 tons once with mine. I did lay a sheet of 1/8" tempered hardboard (masonite) under it, since the pickup I used has a spray-on bedliner, and I didn't think it would slide on that very well.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

That’s not a bad idea... 

Is it hard just to shove it out and rake it level?

I also had the idea to use a board and tie it to my zero turn mower and pulling it out


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

is your truck ok for them to just dump a load in it ?

just shovel it out, not that big a deal. i bet you need at least 2 loads. 

when i did my patio, i estimated that i moved about 10+ tons of stuff, all by hand.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Yes. They can scoop it into my truck. I’m going to need 4-5 loads Is each scoop is 3/4 of a ton.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

so, you don't care if it perhaps damages (scratches) your truck ? how thick of gravel are you doing ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I don’t care too much. It’s a 2019 Dodge Ram, but I bought it for towing capacity so I could buy a boat. It’s ugly brown anyways. Lol

I figured for the most part, 2 inches on the high side and 4 inches on the low (maybe 5 in spots).... so that 3 inches average for gravel over a 14x22 area considering the footers knocked a foot off each side. That equals roughly 4 tons for 3cy of crusher run according to the calculator. 

I do have a question though considering this is my first rodeo. How do I go about this next part. Should I go ahead and run a string level? Or maybe get first few loads of gravel and eyeball it mostly. Then run a string and fill in the last spots? Can someone walk me through it?

Geez my hands hurt. Lol


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

my truck is an 01, and it is in really good shape = no real amount of gravel is going in it. 

i would frame it up, but leave one side easily opened = so you can back your truck into the area and offload easier. 

once thats done. drive a nail into the top of one of the frame boards somewhat close to a corner. tie a string to that nail, push it down to the top of the board. then drive a few other nails the same way on the other boards. then pull the string tight to the other nails, one at a time, and tie it off. then you can see where you crusher needs to go. then move the string to the next nail, and so forth. don't get crazy on being exact about your 4" slab =eyeball it and err on the deep side.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

this is my patio i did. on the low side its about 4" crusher. on the high side, by the deck, it is close to 18". i moved what stone that was under the old patio, after moving the pavers out of the way. than had some trucks bring loads. it is about the same size as your slab. if your 4"ish is 4 tons, then i moved over 20 tons of stuff to get that patio. i plate compacted at 4" intervals.

that was in 2014


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> I figured for the most part, 2 inches on the high side and 4 inches on the low (maybe 5 in spots).... so that 3 inches average for gravel over a 14x22 area considering the footers knocked a foot off each side. That equals roughly 4 tons for 3cy of crusher run according to the calculator.


I'm with you on the 3 CY, but my calculator says that's a little over 5 tons. That's at 130 pcf, which is what I would guess for typical moderately compacted crusher run. That's 7 loads by my numbers.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ok. First run was terrible. Going to harbor freight tonight to grab Haul Master. LOL


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> Ok. First run was terrible. Going to harbor freight tonight to grab Haul Master. LOL


I suspected that's how you might feel.

With some of the heavier loads I did, the tube was bending quite a bit, so I slipped a #6 rebar inside it. A length of steel pipe would also work (I think 1" pipe would fit, but I'm not sure of that), but I had the rebar lying around, so I used it.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Also thinking about building my own rafters/trusses. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> Also thinking about building my own rafters/trusses. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?


My suggestion is put that idea out of your head. I have the skills to design the trusses for the garage I'm building (and the PE stamp to seal them), and I'm not even going to bother to do my own. Pre-engineered (and possibly pre-built) trusses for your area should be available from a local truss manufacturer or a local big box store, probably for about the same or less cost than you'd spend on the materials.

Your local building codes will likely required a stamped design for them anyway.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Where I live has no code. But I’m price checking now. It’s a bit pricier than the materials


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Another question. Am I going to want to put plywood/OSB under t1-11 paneling?

Also... seems like I’m looking at $1000 + range for these trusses. Really seems like I could build them for much cheaper. There’s a few designs I have found on the internet.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

There’s some thing I could add for strength


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

For starters I could use this salvaged 16 ft 2x4s and run a bottom beam across the bottom. They could line right up with the birds mouth if you think I needed one. Then I can run there vertical support beams. Of course I would also cut some Small rectangle plywood pieces where the wood meets. Run them 16” OC


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

I can't give you any specific advice (for liability reasons), but I will say be very careful with designs from the internet. If you do find something you think you can trust, make sure to follow the connection details exactly. The capacity of a 2x whatever, is fairly straightforward, but the capacity of a connection can change alot with what seem like minor changes.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

https://myoutdoorplans.com/shed/16x24-gable-shed-roof-plans/

There’s also this.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

This seems like more than 3/4 ton. Looks like a ton per truck.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> https://myoutdoorplans.com/shed/16x24-gable-shed-roof-plans/
> 
> There’s also this.


The glaring (to me, at least) thing missing is the loading capacity. With a frost depth of 12", I assume you get snow. Is the roof system shown strong enough for your snow load? 

Also, are you going to want to use it for overhead storage or hang anything from it? 

Whether you need a design for permitting purposes or not, there's good reason to have a roof system designed for your area. It not only keeps you from having a failure, but also from overdesigning and wasting material and money.

If you're getting quotes that are in the multiple thousands of dollars, I suggest you call a few more truss manufacturers. The pricing guide I found makes it look like you should be well under $2000.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I see snow maybe every 3-5 years. Overhead storage is not important. $1200 delivered for 24 OC. Another place it’s $985 without delivery. Seems everyone in my area primarily sources from the same place. 

Building them myself would be under $400

I’m so over budget I’ve even almost considered stopping this project for three months to let material cost come down. I got to be “cheap but effective” moving forward.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Another question. Am I going to want to put plywood/OSB under t1-11 paneling?



no. but you will want to put angle boards in (sorry, don't remember what they are called).


your roof. 2x6 16oc. with 2x6 joists.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Tada!


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

looks good. your going to put stone in the footings, right ?

how far is that away from the house ? just wondering. 
what kind of doors ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> looks good. your going to put stone in the footings, right ?
> 
> how far is that away from the house ? just wondering.
> what kind of doors ?



Well.. tbh, I have almost no CR left and only low side has some, and the two 16ft sides on the low end have some. I have a bag of pea gravel in my shed I was think about running along some of it. Really don’t want to buy a full load of CR. Think that’ll be alright? Concrete guy on the way over tomorrow to scope out the job too. Figured I’d run it by him as well...I’m hoping it’ll be alright without hat under the footings. 

It also seems like I need to dig up some soil and make a raised strip on the backfill end to both put some of the footer on that side “under the ground”. Thoughts on that?


As for the door: I’m not sure. Unfortunately the foundation cost me $1000 more than anticipated. Not to mention the $500 in wasted cost of materials when I was doing it wrong. Building materials are at an all time high. Plywood that usually cost $13 a sheet is now $25. So after the slab is poured I have to wait two months to build my workshop hoping lumber costs go down in November like usual. With that said, I have decided on the doors. I’m thinking double doors would be nice for ease of access to carry in and out big material. But I’m honestly not so picky at this point. 

It’s gonna be rough staring at a slab and sitting on my hands.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

If you're looking to save money, have you considered framing it with posts, king trusses, horizontal studs and then using metal siding and roof? It's what's commonly called pole barn or post frame construction. It uses less lumber than traditional framing, and requires no sheathing.

After some more looking, what I'm envisioning (and what I've done for a couple of storage sheds) is not quite a pole barn or post frame, since it would still have a sill plate attached to the slab, but with king studs supporting king trusses at about 8' OC, and horizontal 'purlins', for lack of a better term, for the walls and roof. Metal siding/roofing panels are applied directly to the purlins. Maybe one of the guys who does framing can help with the right terminology and comment on why I'm not finding examples of this type of system.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I was going metal roof. I found 10ft panels for $17.50. I was going t1-11 siding too... but could consider metal.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I’ve also got ideas for the trusses. I think what I come up with will be sufficient for an areas that sees 6 inch snow once every 3-5 years. And I’ll simply do 16 OC since I’m using 2x4s for construction. Lumber prices are getting stupid though. Best to wait u til Nov-Dec with hope of seeing some normal pricing


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I just had another idea... I suppose I could get more CR for the footers... then I could use that to fill in the bottom of my 2x4s I’m using for the frame to fill in underneath instead of digging more dirt. I can imply use another 2x4 behind to line of CR under my frame to hold the CR in place. Think that’ll work? $26 is worth not breaking up my rocky ground and digging


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> I’ve also got ideas for the trusses. I think what I come up with will be sufficient for an areas that sees 6 inch snow once every 3-5 years. And I’ll simply do 16 OC since I’m using 2x4s for construction. Lumber prices are getting stupid though. Best to wait u til Nov-Dec with hope of seeing some normal pricing


To save material, you'll want to go with the widest truss spacing that the roof sheathing (or the purlins) is adequate for. In bending, a 2x6 is nearly 2 1/2 times stronger, and nearly 4 times stiffer than a 2x4 of the same wood species. Common ("stud grade") 2x4's are also typically a weaker wood species than the "structural" lumber in the larger sizes.

If you're planning to use metal roofing directly on the framing (no sheathing), then you'll need horizontal framing, since the metal spans in the direction from the top to the bottom of the roof (ridge to eaves).


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Hers a thing to consider. I have approximately 30 2x4x16s that I salvaged from my failed plan for a Jank foundation. These are now cut to 15”5’ (don’t ask/ measurement miscalculation) that I used as studs for my floating floor idea... Sooooo... engineering 2x4 on 16 OC essentially would save Monday since that will be wasted material. I’m thinking I could use them as the bottom beam that runs across. I don’t really have anything else to use them on if I build 9-10 ft walls. If I went 8 ft, then I could cut them on half and use for wall studs. But I think I will really need higher walls for the workshop


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

well, if you have those footings cleaned out so you see a bunch of the rocks that were there, i think that would be enough. sweep off the rocks so you see then well. 


the exposed footings. not exactly sure what you re asking.


waisted materials ? what all do you have ? i am betting that you could use most of it. 

the door, a overhead would be very nice.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Square and level... but


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

What to do about gap. It’s measure 4” above grade


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> waisted materials ? what all do you have ? i am betting that you could use most of it.
> 
> the door, a overhead would be very nice.



I got boards with screw holes and carriage bolts from where I made 24’ beams and a floor frame when I first started. Lots of it. Where would I sue it to get the most out of them? I could cut them to 10ft for walls or roof, but that seems like it would waste 5’ of the board


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

You can use 2x4's for wider spaced trusses; it would just require a different pattern and more internal diagonal struts.

Have you considered how you're going to support the metal roofing?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

3/8 sheathing


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> 3/8 sheathing


Well then, you probably will need to keep the trusses at 16" OC.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Yup... figured I’d go that with some underlayment and then metal roofing sheets.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ok. One more footer side to go. I got to dig another few inches down before I put the gravel on the high side. Might as well. At this point no reason not too. Im stoked!


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

why the double framing ?

wait till that is poured, "then" you will be Stoked


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

That’s what he asked. Lol. I just did that at the start to have straight sides to work with. It actually is working out for other reasons. I have another woodworking forum making a fuss about my mesh. Tell me what y’all think....

https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/310545#reply-5321908


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

that link goes to the first, of MANY, pages = link to last page ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> What to do about gap. It’s measure 4” above grade


i just seen this, pic didn't show before. you fill that in with another board. a little cret can ozzz out, but not a lot.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> That’s what he asked. Lol. I just did that at the start to have straight sides to work with. It actually is working out for other reasons. I have another woodworking forum making a fuss about my mesh. Tell me what y’all think....
> 
> https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/310545#reply-5321908


I agree with the comments on the other site. I assumed you hadn't finished laying out and tying the mesh. The edge of the mesh should be about 2" from the edge of the slab all around. The transition from the footing to the slab is the most critical location to reinforce. As others have said, the mesh panels should overlap at least a few inches everywhere.

As far as getting it in the right location vertically, you need to talk to whoever is going to pour and finish the slab, because it can either be blocked up (on pieces of 1 5/8" pavers, or something similar) or pulled up during the pour. If the your concrete guy isn't willing to pull it up during placement of the concrete, then you'll need to block it up ahead of time. It should be about an inch above the bottom of the slab out in the middle. Towards the center of the thickness of the slab (2" from the top) would be better around the edges.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

He said he would float it all for me and that I didn’t have to get seats. I told them that but they made me think that he couldn’t do that considering they said not to count on him getting that done &#55358;&#56631;&#55356;&#57339;*♂


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> He said he would float it all for me and that I didn’t have to get seats. I told them that but they made me think that he couldn’t do that considering they said not to count on him getting that done ����*♂


do what ? pull the mesh up intto the pour ? that is how we also did it, if the mesh was on seats, it would be hard to walk on, and it would mes it up. they pull it up as they go, after they pul it up they don't walk in that area again during the pour.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

They were telling me to take some Brock and break it up and float it. So I don’t know. Think I wanna trust my concrete guy on this one


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

now, the rebar, i think i would want that suspended to were it should be in the footing, they don't have to walk there. and have the mesh overlapped with each other. and all of it tied together, doesn't needs much, just enough to hold it together. 

and a good point was brought up, the floor finish. if it was me, i would have it smooth = not brushed. brushed is rough. my garage is smooth and i like it a lot.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

They goin smooth... and he said he has rebar bender so just let him do it. He was recommended by name by two people I know.. well his son was but I just so happened to get the dad. Lol


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> They were telling me to take some Brock and break it up and float it. So I don’t know. Think I wanna trust my concrete guy on this one


i thought they were talking about the mesh, no, don't block that. the rebar, i would ask your guy to be sure. and if the footing is 12" deep, 1/2 blocks will not raise it enough. you want it right in the middle.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> They goin smooth... and he said he has rebar bender so just let him do it. He was recommended by name by two people I know.. well his son was but I just so happened to get the dad. Lol


if he says he is going to bend rebar, then it will have to be reset, and i am sure they will do it how they want, and most likely the correct way. so, let them have at it. 

are you going to be there ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

btw. they are going to need a place to clean the cement truck shoots. this can make a mess. do you have a place for them to do that ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Working that out now. He said Tuesday. I’m trying to get a specific time to ask my boss to leave


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Working that out now.
> 
> He said Tuesday. I’m trying to get a specific time to ask my boss to leave


need an idea ?

is your booss good with you leaving ? take 1/2 the day.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Sooo... how bad would it be to leave a strip down the middle not meshed? lol


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i wouldn't do it. 100% mesh . if anything, i would leave less towards the outside. so, if you had a 4" gap and 2" up close to the forms. i would pull the mesh over to close the gap and leave less over the footing


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I should have just bought the darn roll


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Do I have to overlap? What if I tied EVERY square?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Did I read correctly that the mesh panels are 4'x7'? If so, to get it properly reinforced you'll need 14 or 16 panels - 4 @ 4' = 16' x 4 @ 7' = 28'. Pulling it in a couple inches from each edge will give you an inch or so of overlap for the 4' width in the 16' direction. You'll have more overlap for the 7' panels in the 24' direction, unless you cut a couple panels in half (7' * 3 = 21' + 3.5' = 24.5'), so if you're willing to cut a couple panels in half, you'd only need 14 panels.

I'd recommend keeping it to about 2" from the edges all the way around. Leaving it unreinforced in the middle isn't a good idea, unless you like cracks in the middle of your floor.

No you don't have to overlap, but if you don't it should be tied with heavier wire, something comparable to the wire in the mesh. For what you're doing, just that inch of overlap I mentioned should be enough.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

The squares are 6”.. so if I over lap then each sheet will yield 3.5’... I’d need 17-18 sheets total if I am willing to cut... when I over lap I lose 6’ off each sheet on both length and width


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Do I have to overlap? What if I tied EVERY square?


i would overlap "at least" 1" = as long as its tied together very well. if its overlaped very well, then it doesn't need to be tied together very well. 

the mesh panels, are they full squares at the edges ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

are you home now ? letss see pics


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I’m not. I’m at work. I’m going to have to bust my ass when I leave work to get this Finished up.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> The squares are 6”.. so if I over lap then each sheet will yield 3.5’... I’d need 17-18 sheets total if I am willing to cut... when I over lap I lose 6’ off each sheet on both length and width


I envisioned 4 panels at 4' wide across 15'-8", giving you 3 overlaps of about 1 1/4". 

Lengthwise, it comes out about the same, except you get an extra 6" on one, and some extra wire one the next. If you want more overlap, with the 3.5' panel you've got it automatically, and on the one that's 3' plus the 6" wires, you can bend the free ends into hooks, and hook them around the last cross wire of the adjacent full panel to maintain the continuity of the reinforcement.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> i would overlap "at least" 1" = as long as its tied together very well. if its overlaped very well, then it doesn't need to be tied together very well.
> 
> the mesh panels, are they full squares at the edges ?


And yes. The are full square edges.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

HotRodx10 said:


> I envisioned 4 panels at 4' wide across 15'-8", giving you 3 overlaps of about 1 1/4".
> 
> Lengthwise, it comes out about the same, except you get an extra 6" on one, and some extra wire one the next. If you want more overlap, with the 3.5' panel you've got it automatically, and on the one that's 3' plus the 6" wires, you can bend the free ends into hooks, and hook them around the last cross wire of the adjacent full panel to maintain the continuity of the reinforcement.


Gotcha... got 12 sheets. Buying two more now


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/qfzo02g.jpg

Woot woot. Thanks to all!!!


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Looks good there, Hangry!


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

why does it look like 2 snakes were drag racing across it ?





















:vs_laugh: j/k, i know. its not done in the pic. 

btw. you can strip it tomorrow and then get your chub on :biggrin2:
put your picnic bench on it and have a few or 12 beers :vs_laugh:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

oh. what did your guy say about how you did ?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

did you write your name in it ?!


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Well. I just bought this in celebration. Lol

https://www.lsn.com/tools-parts/cast-iron-router-table/6435797.html


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> did you write your name in it ?!


Nope. I had to run back to work. But my family did get to put their hand prints in it. And my son wrote the name I was going to call the shop “Duct Knuckles”... that came from the first day I went to level the pads for the shop and with no gloves and rocky ground busted my girl hands up to the point I had to wrap my fist in duct tape to keep the bandages on while I worked. LOL


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Well. I just bought this in celebration. Lol
> 
> https://www.lsn.com/tools-parts/cast-iron-router-table/6435797.html


did you pay $1100 ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

No. Paid $1000 with other bonuses included.

Similar stuff on my list. This just a little nicer. May even post the woodpecker blocks for $200 on eBay. Lol


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

ok, so, whats going on ? silence is usually ntoa good thing.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Well. It’s poured and dried. Ordered some lumber and got to go pick it up. Lol


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

did you strip it ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

You mean the frame? Not yet. Don’t know when that’s cool


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

1 day is good.


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Ok. I removed the frame. These boards look terrible between the carriage bolt holes, deck screw holes. And the concrete all over them. Are these even salvageable to safely use on the frame? Would filling the holes help? Building mats are so high that I would like to know where i could use them aside from the corner brackets and the beam above the door. Maybe use a jack studs?


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Hangry said:


> Ok. I removed the frame. These boards look terrible between the carriage bolt holes, deck screw holes. And the concrete all over them. Are these even salvageable to safely use on the frame? Would filling the holes help? Building mats are so high that I would like to know where i could use them aside from the corner brackets and the beam above the door. Maybe use a jack studs?


You should still be able to wash the cement off the wood.

You can use them pretty much anywhere in the walls, except as you said - not as diagonal bracing or headers. As studs, or top and bottom plates, they should be fine.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

use them anywhere you want. if you plan a wall of cabinets or something, put them on that wall. tht way you don't see them.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

quiz

i assume you have a plan for the structure. what is the first thing you do when building it ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Mark the holes on the bottom plate to line up the anchors?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I kinda feel like I’m doing a few things all at once. Measuring the sort side to account for the 1.5” on each side that the long side will overlap... marking my 16” centers... measuring and drilling anchor bolts... of course I’m doing the corners of the walls a little different... accounting for my Windows, ac, and double doors... 

So with all that I suppose the correct reply on what I’m actually first doing is Building my trusses so they are done and ready when I put up my walls. LOL


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> Mark the holes on the bottom plate to line up the anchors?


you temp install the bottom plates, all of them at the same time. then set your top plates with them and mark out the studs on both of them. 

iirc, your shop is 16' wide ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

My truss. Now I can make a template. Yay!


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

slab looks good. any new pics ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Nope. I’ll have some this weekend though. I took a break... then I made my trusses and now have my walls planned out on sketch 3D. Should have frame and trusses up this weekend. It’s currently all outside under a tarp waiting for the rain to pass.










I love sketch 3D.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

as long as you get it done before winter :smile:

do you plan to drywall ?
what kind of door ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I’m gonna build my double doors out of 2x6 and plywood pretreated. And I plan to eventually put up interior walls when building material prices get back to normal. Probably going to go with some kind of OSB or something cheap


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Not quite as far as I wanted, but it’s coming along


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

looks good. why is that a half wall ? the door, i'm thinking it doesn't need to be treated = save $$.

but i do see something wrong ...


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

I am having to build the walls in sections. The first wall I built my wife and I could stand up, but putting them on the anchor bolts proved to be way too challenging. What’s the problem you see?????

And the door Im over killing it. Going to have expensive stuff in there so I’m building that solid and heavy duty


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Geez. The suspense is killing me. Hoping it’s not too serious


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

Fix'n it said:


> looks good. why is that a half wall ? the door, i'm thinking it doesn't need to be treated = save $$.
> 
> but i do see something wrong ...


You can’t just leave a brotha hangin like that man. :vs_laugh:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> You can’t just leave a brotha hangin like that man. :vs_laugh:


i don't see a cooler of beer :biggrin2: :vs_laugh:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Hangry said:


> I am having to build the walls in sections. The first wall I built my wife and I could stand up, but putting them on the anchor bolts proved to be way too challenging.
> 
> And the door Im over killing it. Going to have expensive stuff in there so I’m building that solid and heavy duty


thats what i thought, those walls are a good size. 

you can overkill the door, but treated wood will not make it stronger. just say'n.

whaat kind of lock on the doors ?


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

This lock can actually hold two padlocks


I’m not using treated wood. I’m using this for each door

3- 2x10x7ft lined up and pockets screwed and glued. Will joint the edges
1- 2x4x7 on the inside edge screwed and glued
1- 2x4x7 was on it’s side On the inside making the fixed pin hinges flush. 3 hinges per door (hope it can hold the weight 
3- 2x6x3 running across on the inside. Plan on putting 3 carriage bolts Through each lining up with the middle of each 2x10.

I also have a barrel latch to go on the inside to hold the second door closed and a anther steel latch to use the third deadbolt. All of the locks of course will be mounted with bolts running through the doors. Think that’ll do???? Too heavy?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

looks like a plan


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## Hangry (Aug 11, 2020)

BA1F0E29-F3CF-403B-BBE4-62983BE71B32.jpeg




__
Hangry


__
Oct 5, 2020


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

looking good


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