# L shaped porch framing



## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

I am using 2x10 treated ledgers to attach to the main house, with 2x8 joists. My question is about the diagonal support bringing to two sides together. Does that need to be doubled 2x8's to attach to the corner ledger?


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Build one deck the length of the house....PLUS the width of the second piece of the "L". Then just add the second section of the thing as an add-on. Ron


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Post a picture.
Unless this is a second story deck it's never a good idea to attach the deck to the side of the house.
It can add all kinds of moisture issues.
Make it free standing and all the issues go away.
I've made thousands of dollars over many years from people trying to use ledgers and fixing all the rot.
You are building this lower than any door openings, right? 
Diagonals would be supports installed at an angle to stop side sway.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

This is a second story porch. There will be two layers of Tyvek barrier behind the ledger.

My boards will be running lengthwise and meet at the diagonal, so Ron's idea won't work here.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

onjtrainee said:


> This is a second story porch. There will be two layers of Tyvek barrier behind the ledger.
> 
> My boards will be running lengthwise and meet at the diagonal, so Ron's idea won't work here.


I'd still do as Ron suggests.... just put in blocking as the diagonal nailer


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

yes put a diagonal doubled up joist running out from the corner of the L on the house ledger. it needs to be doubled up to meet code and to put more joist hangers on it. Why a 2x10 ledger with 2x8 joists and not a 2x8 ledger?

cut the ends of each of the 2 joists that make up the doubled up 45 degree part at a 45 on the ends, stick a regular double 2x8 joist hanger on the corner of the house ledger and hammer the fins (or whatever you want to call them) on the sides of the hanger to bend inward and meet the house ledger. 

Then attach pre fabricated 45 degree joist hangers on the doubled up 2x8 on the L corner using it as the ledger sort of. 


Flash the ledger correctly and you won't have moisture problems. Bolt it correctly and it won't fall down. Free standing deck is a lot more footings and work. 


I don't know what all that blocking is in the picture but I don't think it's code, check into that. It's not like it's going to fall down without all that blocking though















looks like all they did here was toenail this doubled up joist (actually a 6x6 or 4x6), and I found the post where the contractor said he actually just toe nail lag bolted it into the ledger on one side because of the gutter down spout, don't do that if you happen to have a downspout, I would put one post under this 4x6 one foot off the house and onto a proper footing if the gutter was in the way (or just put an elbow high up on the downspout and move it out of the corner).













they're running the decking here the opposite way as you are, right? hence how your joists will running the opposite direction?


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

tyvek as ledger flashing? I think you need the copper flashing roll (not aluminum with modern pressure treated because it eats through it nowadays) or maybe solid plastic flashing roll but not tyvek which is breathable I think. And use a drip edge and use high end polyurethane or pure silicone caulk on all terminations. 










you get the idea


home depot tells you to do it against code here with a single joist on the 45 pointing out from the corner instead of doubled up and having joist hangers on it as a ledger
http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_build_low_level_deck_HT_PG_LC


leave your first beam (the regular one 10 feet from the house or whatever it is) extra long, like a foot or two, then temporarily attach this doubled up ledger thing coming off the L corner of the house ledger by just sticking it in the double joist hanger (the one you bent to fit this spot) and prop the end up with a 2x4 sticking up from the ground (or have someone on a ladder hold it since it will have to be moved around to find the right spot for 45 degrees, then use a formula or whatever's easiest for you to determine where is 45 degrees for this corner piece and mark it on the extra long beam. Move the 45 degree piece out of the way and cut the extra long beam at a 45 so that the other side of the L beam will also be cut at 45 and meets at a corner and then stick a 6x6 post right under the corner and it's done.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

No, the Tyvek is just a moisture barrier on the house. I plan to do all the regular flashing when we get a little further down the road. All I have now is the ledger board up, waiting to decide about the diagonal. Thanks for the great photos...that's the way we want to do it. But we have a raw cedar post with a quarter piece taken out to fit under the ledger on that corner so the joists can rest on it...looks really sharp. Would i still need the extra support a foot away? The joists will be supported on what will be the equivalent of a 4x post in the corner (next to the house)


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

Wasn't sure about the span of the diagonal needing additional support below.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

"Why a 2x10 ledger with 2x8 joists and not a 2x8 ledger?" 
The reason we went with 10" is because the quarter piece of post taken out for the cedar post that went in the corner is wide enough to act as a support and will hide the lower part of the ledger board. We think we can avoid using joist hangers and just rest the joists on that piece which butts into the corner post...will look quite nice with stucco and keep with vintage look I'm hoping to wind up with. Will do the same on the other side, unless I'm wrong, think I can lag screw and catch the ledger and the studs behind with 5" lags.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

the ledger flashing should be done as a 2 step flashing detail. first put ice and water shield or blue skin against the house where the ledger will go then put your metal ledger cap flashing on. the peel and stick membrane is self sealing which means hte holes from the bolts will be sealed


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

_Wasn't sure about the span of the diagonal needing additional support below._

the bigger the diagonal piece (2x10 vs 2x8) the longer it can go without a beam/support. It will be longer than all the other 2x8 joists but not much and should be within code. Measure and look up the guides for span. you can make it the only 2x10 if you have to but you should be fine. 

if you're saying you have a raw cedar post to go right onto the outside corner of your house's exterior right under where the diagonal piece meets then house, then it should have a footing. It can frost heave and weaken the connection, but it will probably be secured to the house anyway and never move, right? The doubled joist hanger is enough though anyway, so maybe leave the raw cedar a 1/2" short on top or something. 

here it doesn't even look like he added the double joist hanger in the corner, he just toenailed it

http://theoldbrownhouse.com/2012/10/25/deck-joists/

but now that I'm rethinking this, the nailing flaps (or whatever you want to call them) on the double joist hanger you can easily find at home depot etc might not be wide enough to even meet the house ledger after being bend inward with a hammer. You can probably use 4" heavy nails and bend it as far as it goes and then nail through the joist and then into the ledger - or you might be able to find ones that are made just for this application and order online for a few bucks. Or just use two of these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-...uge-Framing-Angle-A35Z/100375389?N=5yc1vZaqxb

something like this (but if not on a 45 like that and not for such a wide beam) should work if you can find it
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Obg1MalwzVI/TuG8T8uijOI/AAAAAAAAAoM/J3SkCmqxWwk/s1600/IMG_1931.JPG

Thing is I've done many decks but never with that 45 on the corner so I'm not sure what's code. I would have to research and stuff. Apparently though from all the photos I posted, people and a contractor are doing it way weaker than what I'm assuming would even meet code.


now, if code is requiring you to use notched 6x6 posts, which it probably does require 6x6 post for a 2 story deck, and it you have to notch half of them away instead of sticking the beam right on top of them, then I'm not sure how you'll do the post in that outside corner. I told you how to do it with laying the beam directly on top of a unnotched 6x6. 

this is unnotched 6x6









the following is notched which holds better though (should use two 1/2" carriage through bolts not one lag bolt and a bunch of nails as pictured though) but maybe you can get away with notching all the posts except that outside corner if that isn't an eye sore to you, it might be possible to notch the corner and still make it work though - you would be left with only about a 2" x 2" peg 7.5" tall on the 6x6 after notched to use to drill 4X 1/2" carriage bolts though, not sure if that meets code. But you can notch that much out of a 4x4 hand rail post on an inside deck corner to work double duty for both hand rails to tie into and meet code, so maybe notching that much out of a 6x6 is okay?












compared to the following image, you would have to notch an additional 1.5" width for the second 2x8 which makes up the double beam. If you want the notch facing the house or not also makes a difference. There's not much wood left after notching. Like I said I haven't seen this so I'm not positive, but I think you get the idea. Another thing is you can just put two 6x6 posts in that corner. Make one big footing.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

wow, too late to edit. after 30 mins. very stupid concept...
I meant to change:

you can't make that diagonal the only 2x10 in case the span to the beam is too far for a 2x8 but it should be fine, would only be probably 6 inches longer than the regular joists. 

the flaps on the double joist hanger I said to bend with a hammer so that you can hook the 45 degree beam to the ledger, which I said are probably not wide enough on the ones you find at home depot etc, but you can probably order one online for a few dollars made for this application.

Thing is, I've done many decks with inspection but not like this, so I'm not familiar. Apparently though from the photos I posted, others and a contractor connected it weaker than what I'm suggesting should even meet code. There's probably a code or something for this out there, you will have to research some more.

for the post under the beam in the outside corner near this 45 degree angle, like I said notching a 6x6 might notch so much away from it that it's pointless but I haven't done anything like that and not sure of the code if any is out there.

Compared to the following image, you would have to notch out an additional 1.5" for the double beam and on both sides so both beams rest on the same post leaving you with a much smaller amount of 6x6 left and then you have to put four half inch carriage bolts though that little peg. 











if you want the notch facing the house or not also matters.
you can just put two 6x6 posts right next to each other on the same footing but that's kind of tacky. 

sort of like this person did but if you look at the second photo, I don't think he notched the 6x6 to accommodate both 2x10s, I think only it's notched for one and the outer 2x10 of the beam isn't even resting on the post which probably would fail inspection. http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/596294/post-your-chicken-coop-pictures-here/3730

Sandwiching the beam to the post, don't do that even though I've seen many docks done like that with the full weight resting on 1/2" bolts. Inspectors hate seeing a deck resting on just bolts like this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjQZ9rtbYcM

so basically, figure out what's strongest and what's code for the bracket to attach the 45 degree angled beam to the house.

And then figure out if notching so much out of a 6x6 beam to accommodate for two beams joining it on an angle is strong enough, and if not than maybe go with one of the ideas I had of making that the only beam that's not notched (if that passes code in your area) or just putting two posts next to each other.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

lol, and now it shows my edit after it said it was too late to edit so I posted twice what it said I couldn't edit in the first place.


anyway, just now I realize you said instead of joist hangers you want to put a strip of wood on the bottom of the ledger to hold the joists, that will more than anything cause concern. I have seen this on a basement beam done in a house built in like the 40s and was shocked honestly. They could have just lost ~10" head space in that area by putting the joists on top of the beam instead of using the beam as a ledger. I guess they didn't have joist hangers back then or something. I wouldn't do it. If I wanted to hide the hardware, I'd put blocking on the ledger after joist hangers and then decking or something over that.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

Alot to respond to...the corner post is more beefy than 4x..maybe 6" or better tree trunk, and it sets on a rock ledge so not moving....and attached to the ledger with a half round top to rest the diagonal joist. Not sure if I can bolt that all the way thru or not..I was told 3/8" lag screws in to the studs was the way to go for the ledger board...don't think I could have bolted that area if i wanted to. Maybe at the corner, but it wouldn't catch a stud unless I backed it up somehow.

The deck is 8' on the two sides, so maybe 10' at the diagonal? that is the area I need to know about supporting. I will get hands on professional help with that...maybe I can hide joists hangers as you said...but doubt it would lay flat..just seemed serendipitous that the quarter round piece from the corner post would lay flat and provide a ledge when placed under the ledger and hide the only treated wood I'm using...the rest of the joists will be rought cedar 2x8's.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

double 2x8 beam I believe requires posts every 6 feet but it might be okay with only one on both ends 10 foot span, maybe. Depends on the type of wood and everything as the joist span charts show. it is a beam and not a joist, which would allow a further span, because you will connect 45 mitred joists to that diagonal piece. I guess you will use a strip of wood instead of joist hangers on that piece also like you are on the house ledger, which I think is the most concern. but if you hate looking at hardware hangers, then I don't know what to tell you. You will need a lot of thick nails (not screws which are weaker in that orientation) to hold that strip anyway and also will need to toenail nail the heck out of those joists not being in a joist hanger, maybe you can prime and paint the joist hangers to match the cedar? That'd look cool.

If you don't have a nail gun, I would just go buy a used portable paslode off ebay or a compressor gun from craigslist and then resell it, would only cost like $200 and well worth it.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Is the deck being inspected for minimum code required safety? 

If so; don't ever re-bend/straighten a hanger- lost the galvanizing to rust fast and weakens at the bend for less loading. Figure the load from the beam tables as square footage carried, and one size larger joist for ledger per code; http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf Add a metal post cap under the diagonal doubled 2x8's (11' 3-3/4" long). Info on ledger hangers required/not, also there. Read the "commentary" for post sizes/heights/caps.

Gary


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

gunner666 said:


> double 2x8 beam I believe requires posts every 6 feet but it might be okay with only one on both ends 10 foot span, maybe. Depends on the type of wood and everything as the joist span charts show. it is a beam and not a joist, which would allow a further span, because you will connect 45 mitred joists to that diagonal piece. I guess you will use a strip of wood instead of joist hangers on that piece also like you are on the house ledger, which I think is the most concern. but if you hate looking at hardware hangers, then I don't know what to tell you. You will need a lot of thick nails (not screws which are weaker in that orientation) to hold that strip anyway and also will need to toenail nail the heck out of those joists not being in a joist hanger, maybe you can prime and paint the joist hangers to match the cedar? That'd look cool.
> 
> The diagonal will be 11', with the post on the corner and at the other end, so that would be 10' right? I imagine i could run 2x8 cedar instead of treated if it will span further. Also thought maybe I could brace up each end of the ledger with a half round post at the corner and on the end. Would two of those work for an 8' span of the ledger board? Then I could maybe bolt the quarter round piece I want to rest the joists on thru the ledger and catch on the back side of the osb? So it would be braced on two ends of the ledger with the round posts, and the quarter piece could be supported that way too. So the weight would be carried by the two end posts, and maybe bolting the quarter round for added support? Or is that overkill? Maybe just screwing them to the ledger board?


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

"don't ever re-bend/straighten a hanger- lost the galvanizing to rust fast and weakens at the bend for less loading." true, good thinking.

I think you'll just have to email a bunch of manufacturers and see if you can buy just one of what you need. Basically you would just need one of these they have in the corner here on this metal deck where it says Boxspan monoplane deck
http://www.spantec.com.au/pages/boxspan_decks.htm
the ledger should be as wide as the beam, looks like a 2x8 beam but only a 2x6 ledger. 

I saw a picture from under a frame I can't find it again, but it would better illustrate another method which however isn't actually to code though, basically instead of doubling up the joists to make that diagonal beam, they used single joists about 1.5" away from the corner of the house ledger on both sides. This allows you to just use regular 45 degree joist hangers, the ends of the decking floats over the joist about 1.5" with nothing underneath them (unless you add in a 2x4 or a rip/table saw strip of one depending on the void) and meet to make the corner miter. but since those diagonal pieces are having joists attached to them with 45 degree joist hangers, it's acting like a beam and should be doubled up instead of single joist. 

With a big cedar post you mentioned attached right over the exterior siding on the house corner under the diagonal beam, if it's bolted in good and on a rock that is good enough as a footing, they might just pass that as inspection too. Make sure the top of the cedar isn't cut in a way to collect water, maybe seal it or flash it too.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

_The diagonal will be 11', with the post on the corner and at the other end, so that would be 10' right?_ 

you can cantilever the joists over the beam up to 2 feet for most lumber, depends on if using 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12. You can also place the post about a foot from the end of the beam, again depending on the size and lumber type, I think off the top of my head 1.5' is max for a 2x12 beam and 2x10 beam is 1' max. 

example is first picture the post is flush with the beam edge and the second picture it's placed back a foot. the third looks way too spaced back and isn't to code even for a 2x12 beam and that looks like only a 2x10 anyway




































The cantilever is just the joists extending past the beam like all the photos above but the deck below has no cantilever (and improper footings that should be filled to above grade with concrete). 

so in other words, you can probably use a cantilever on the whole deck and also space the post about a foot away from the end of that diagonal and get away with only having one post for the diagonal beam. But really, I'm not sure if all beams are created equally - this diagonal one might not even need the standard 6 foot max (usually) span for posts, but the code book probably just says only something like '6' max span for deck beam posts' and an inspector can interpret it however they want. 











_I imagine i could run 2x8 cedar instead of treated if it will span further. Also thought maybe I could brace up each end of the ledger with a half round post at the corner and on the end._ 

You could add cedar round posts under the ledger but it's not needed for code, all you usually need is just lag bolts through the ledger and into the house rim joist (or into the studs on the wraparound side) as shown in the image below. 













Or use carriage bolts with nut and washer on the inside if you have access to there via an unfinished basement also is a good idea which holds better and in some places they require that sort of lateral support either with the carriage bolts or sometimes even with a lateral load connecter shown below













just make sure if the cedar rounds are only for aesthetics and if they're not on footings or bolted to the house that they're cut short of hitting the bottom of the ledger at least an inch possibly more or lifted off the ground that much because you don't want those to be the only thing that frost heaves while the rest of the deck is secure with footings because it could possibly cause ledger safety issues. 




_Would two of those work for an 8' span of the ledger board? Then I could maybe bolt the quarter round piece I want to rest the joists on thru the ledger and catch on the back side of the osb? So it would be braced on two ends of the ledger with the round posts, and the quarter piece could be supported that way too. So the weight would be carried by the two end posts, and maybe bolting the quarter round for added support? Or is that overkill? Maybe just screwing them to the ledger board?_ 

Last thing I would do is us a strip of wood on the bottom of the ledger instead of joist hangers. 
Also, don't use screws as horizontal strength for anything, like if you were hanging a heavy mirror even, nails are stronger and screws are not meant to hold horizontal pressure. So no screws in the joist hangers if you end up using joist hangers, use nails. 


you can also like someone said already, just omit the diagonal beam piece and frame it like two square decks like the image below (which looks to be using single joists as beams where doubled up joists are needed) and add in all blocking for nailers for the miter decking seam but it wouldn't look as nice from underneath if that matters.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

If you can't find the double joist hanger that goes on the corner point of the house ledger, then you can just use a 45 degree double joist hanger about 1.5" back from the corner on both sides of it, so two hangers in total. Just like I said somewhere above already but that they were using single joist hangers and then running 45 degree joist hangers on it to fill in the corner joist framing. Then, as said, you can fill in between the two double beams with strip of wood so there's something to nail the very ends of the miter decking to. 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Double-2x10-Skewed-Right-Joist-Hanger-SUR210/100375008
and then the other sides gets the opposite angle bracket of course.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd like to be able to post pix...but not savvy on that. If it's a no brainer..I'll try to post something visual for you. The idea of having the tree trunk posts is that they are decorative, and I am trying to keep as much of them visible as possible on the front of the deck. Plus the under neath area is a liveable space, so hoping not to clutter it up unnecessarily with additional supports. Also would like the look of the diagonal as you mentioned above.

Two questions, is 11 feet too much of a span below for doubled 2x8 cedar or treated? I looked at span tables, but was not getting that answer for some reason. Secondly, is there no way around joist hangers, at least next to the house? I can bolt the corner posts next to the house thru the two sides, both below the left side and at the corner both places. Seems like that should be enough additional support for the quarter round post I want to lay below the joists against the house. But if not, I guess I can learn to live with the look of joist hangers, or figure a way to disguise them..maybe.

So I'm cutting in to support the frame on the external posts, so they are supported by wood ledge and bolted. Just not getting why same principle wouldn't work against the house, especially if bolts and washer/nut are run thru the frame of the house studs thru the round corner post at two opposing 90 degree angles. High and low on the wall beneath the ledger, which is lag screwed into the studs on 4 inch 3/4" lags ever 32 inches. These posts are supported by a rock ledge...and we are not dealing with frost heaving issues here in Texas. The wood strip you mentioned is more like a 2-3 inch ledge, as it is a quarter round cut from a 6" post which the remainder fits into the corner, if I didn't make that part clear yet.

BTW, Gunner, I am extremely thankful for your input, time and pix for this. I hope I am not seeming too dense, just thanks for your patience and input, BIG TIME!


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

I was rethinking this, and don't think you'll be able to cantilever the joists. But not doing that puts the beam and posts further from the house and makes for a more spacious area under the deck.

Because if you cantilever the joists, then at the diagonal piece where you use that diagonal piece as a beam to attach the ends of 45 degree cut joists (just like where it says Deck Corner Connection in the flowing link), then the smallest of those 45 degree joists that fill in the tip of the angle won't have a beam under them unless you don't cantilever it and make the beam flush with the rim joist i.e like that photo above with the low deck that has the concrete footing with the concrete not even filled in all the way to the surface).

http://www.spantec.com.au/pages/boxspan_decks.htm


So this means you'll have a further span between support for those diagonal beams (it would be plural beams if you use two 45 degree double joists hangers spaced about 1.5" away from corner of the house ledger on each side and run two beams. If you can find the double joist hanger made for attaching one beam to the corner of the house ledger, then it would be a single beam). 
So like you said an approx 11 foot span either way. 


I couldn't actually find much codes for max span between posts/footings.
this says 6 feet max http://www.dalycity.org/Page176.aspx

I think it's 6 feet even for a big double 2x12 beam, a 2x8 beam would be smaller, like 4 feet only maybe. But apparently from all the photos of the diagonal deck beams, none of them have additional support posts between the ledger and beam, and at least one was a contractor that had it inspected (the pic with the 4x6 beam that has no joist hanger connecting to the house and he just toe nail lag bolted it next to the gutter down spout). 

This says 8 foot but has no mention if it's a 2x12 beam or a 2x8
_"Footings are generally spaced up to 8 feet apart, according to "Professional Deck Builder" magazine. Yet deck designs may show footings placed farther apart. Sometimes designers reduce the number of footings by increasing their size so that each footing can carry more weight. Using engineered beams to support the deck flooring also helps reduce the number of required footings. The beams consist of several layers of material that are stronger than a single wood board. However, adding larger footings and engineered beams to a deck design may increase construction costs."_

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_12228989_proper-spacing-deck-footings.html

And yes, an engineered beam (if exterior grade) would be like 15 inches maybe but should be fine for such a span, so would a metal beam but I don't think you want either of those. 




You are using 6x6 posts, right, and not 4x4? Anything over I think even 4 feet high here now needs a 6x6 post but I think I read over 6 feet requires it usually but I'm not sure, you'll have to make sure. 

Because the only other thing I'm stumped on now is if you do use a 6x6, if your area requires them to be notched instead of having the beam rest on them (see photos above, the one that's not notched is the one with the big meta T brackets on the beam and 6x6 posts, all the other pictures the 6x6 is notched and through bolted which holds better and might be required). Because if you do need them notched, then the post on the corner will have two beams joined on it, and like I mentioned above, you would only have about a 2x2 inch peg of wood remaining after notching out for two beams and then are supposed to put 4 1/2" bolts thought that basically leaving you with no wood strength. But you might be able to not notch it but then you would need bracing, but you also might be required bracing either way, all depends on what town and inspector. Or you can put two 6x6 posts in the corner. Either way, you would at least need a metal 6x6 connector for beam to post connection, you can't just like sit it on there and toenail it. Or you can do the cleat method and not notch the 6x6s like the last photo on this page link (but I would still through bolt it instead of just nails like the photo)
http://inspectapedia.com/decks/Deck_Beam_Install.php


I googled something like 'deck without joist hangers' and found a thread I just skimmed over where someone asked what they did before they were even made, the answers I happened to read where basically either a freestanding deck with a beam close to the house so the joists sit on top of that or they even cut open the house and sister the joists over the header that holds the house's joists, and that decks are sort of a modern thing that in the pasts before hangers, they didn't really add them onto houses like nowadays, back then they kind of just made it a porch and framed like the rest of the house. 
you only need hangers on the house ledger board. The ends of the joists are secured from twisting by the rim joist and their downward load is of course held by the beam. you are trying to use a 2" strip of wood as a beam. Like I mentioned I saw a house that the basement beam had a 1.5" strip of wood nailed to the bottom of the beam holding the full weight of the house and it's standing since like the 40's or 30's but doing something like that is probably the worst idea.
Nowadays they are also requiring a lot of decks to have hurricane clip hangers where the joists sit on the beam. 

I can't find a picture of how I'm saying you can connect the ends of the joists (not the house end) to the rim joist and not need joist hangers on there when there's not even a cantilever on the joists. The photo above with the low deck with the concrete footings that aren't all the way filled in, that deck has no cantilever but they used joist hangers on the beam. But you can do this: the beam will have to be 2x8 or 2x10 inches lower to avoid using joist hangers which lowers the living space. But, so you build that beam there so that the joists are level when they rest on top of the beam (not when the joists are run into the face of the beam like a rim joist), then you cut the joists so that they only rest on one of the two 2x10s that make up the beam (only rests on the 2x10 out of the two that is closer to the house) and then you put the rim joist on and the rim joist will be directly above the outermost 2x10 that makes up the double 2x10 beam. 

I hope that draws a picture because I can't just upload an image I make with paint on this forum, I'd have to go sign up for photobucket or something. 


_Secondly, is there no way around joist hangers, at least next to the house? I can bolt the corner posts next to the house thru the two sides, both below the left side and at the corner both places. Seems like that should be enough additional support for the quarter round post I want to lay below the joists against the house. But if not, I guess I can learn to live with the look of joist hangers, or figure a way to disguise them..maybe._


I'm not sure what you mean here ^. The ledger is held to the house rim joist or studs with bolts as pictured above. It doesn't need any posts under it unless it's a free standing deck. You can add all the decorative cedar posts you want along the house, just like I mentioned don't let them be the only things that frost heave into the ledger or anywhere else which could weaken the deck. Lift them off the ground a few inches and float them, would keep the bottoms from rotting too. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w_USYZlPFc they make stuff like this hidden joist hangers. Or you might be able to build something in between each joist like bridge blocking tight to the house to hide the ledger bolts and hangers.

Or you can avoids these two things (the span of the diagonal beam(s) is too far and requires an additional post in the center thus sort of ruining the patio underneath and 2) if the 6x6 in the corner that joins the two beams together can be notched to accommodate two beams thus leaving only a 2x2 inch peg to put four 1/2" bolts though) by just not wrapping the deck around the house. you would omit also lag bolting the ledger into the studs on the opposite side also, lots of people do that but drilling out 1/2" from a load bearing 1.5" stud I don't like that idea. If you don't wrap the deck around, you can at least make it have 45 degree corners which doesn't require any additional beams or posts as long as the 45 sections are small enough, and you can also use the materials and work you were going to use to do the wrap around section to make the main side a larger deck with a second beam.

I'm not sure what the code is down in TX for footing depth, although you have no frost heave, it might settle, so I would say definitely make sure you don't just like dig a 1" hole and make a concrete pad just to have something hard and flat for the bottom of the posts because it can still sink even with rain but the section attached to the house would sink at a much lower rate from the rains. The most common place for decks to fail is at the ledger board but the cause is often from the footings.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm thinking of cutting some extra 2x's to run along side the studs that were impaled for the lag bolts. It was also suggested I bolt from the inside to the outside, I'm guessing the replacement of metal in the hole will not compromise the load bearing of those studs. Also found a pretty good span chart on this site. http://www.co.stafford.va.us/DocumentCenter/Home/View/239

If I am reading it right, 2x8's can span 12.5 ft. They also show alternatives to joist hangers in the form of hurricane clips, and toe nailing, but that may just be if everything rides on top of a ledge, which would only happen if I could stabelize my quarter round obsession. I like that the 1940's house still holding dispite your obvious dismay at it. I also just noticed the deck I put on my house with a friend 15 years ago has many joist hangers missing, and seems to be sturdy as hell...but it's not 8 ft in the air either. I am going 2ft with my sonotube hole, and an extra 4 inches for a belled out portion beneath it for the concrete. The middle posts will be sunk in road base, which I have used, and have total confidence in for setting up posts with out concrete, and they allow for water to drain as well. I will re read your post in a while, but hitting some of the high points. I you get a chance, let me know what you think of the link i included here. I may be reading it wrong, but I think it substantiates some of my plan that was hazy.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

yeah you can span a joist that far (12.5') but a beam is much less, needs post every 6 feet (others say 8 but I always did with inspection 6 foot max). The diagonal piece(s) coming off the corner of the house are technically beams because you attach one end of the joists to them, the end that is cut on a 45. 

More than likely, the way your house is framed, you can't bypass joist hangers on the ledger by resting the joists on top of a ledger and using hurricane clips because that means the joists would be higher than your door way leading to the deck, because if you lower the ledger to make the top of the joists level with the bottom of the top level door, then your ledger won't have the house's rim joist behind it to bolt into. But you can definitely do a free standing deck and not need joist hangers near the house but that needs a whole nother row of posts and beam and footings near the hose (but doing that, you can omit the hunt for the 45 degree double joist hanger that attaches right to the corner of the house ledger, instead, you can just have that diagonal beam on top of the beam [and then if you don't want to do a freestanding ledger on the wall with the studs, you can lower the location of that ledger because it's not dependent on where the house's rim joist is]).


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

So you are saying the diagonal is not a joist but a beam and must be supported at 6'? I think I've seen at least a couple of examples of that not being the case...even with actual 4x8's as the diagonal.

And it is not bolted into any rim framing on the house, unless i back the spaces between the studs with 2 2x blocks, which has also been recommended. That would mean the ledger would be bolted as well as lagged along that section of the house.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

I thought you had solid rim joist already in the house frame for the back yard and only studs on the wraparound side, not studs on both. I don't like bolting into studs and never heard of putting blocking in between then to act as a rim joists but I guess that works. Usually when someone bolts into studs from the outside, they remove some siding and cut the home wrap, find a row of vertical nails the sheathing was nailed in at and then assume the rest of the studs are 16 on center from there and just start drilling and bolting - you don't know if whoever sheathed it happened to cut a panel short meaning that the vertical nail row is not nearly in the center of the stud, there's a lot of margin of error, and when electrician drills holes through a stud, they only put the metal protective plate on the inside of the home - the metal plate that prevents someone on the inside from drilling into the wire to hang something on the studs, they'd hit the thick metal plate and stop and know the wires are right behind there, drilling from the outside, you wouldn't know if a wire's there. 

I'd say just do a freestanding, with the money, time, and energy saved from removing the siding and flashing and adding in blocking and the drilling and bolting etc, you can put a beam and row of footings and posts close to the house. And then add lateral bracing since it's a freestanding deck. You're lucky you don't have to dig deep footings in TX which makes it a lot easier. 



Yes, that diagonal piece is a beam because you connect 45 degree joists to the side of it. All I know is needing 6 foot max spacing for posts supporting beams, others said 8 foot like I linked, and apparently from the photos even the one the contractor did where they toe nail bolted the diagonal beam to the house corner near that gutter down spout, none of them added additional posts, and some, even home depot, instructs you to make that diagonal piece a single 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12, not a doubled up one which is required when attaching joists to said diagonal piece. 

Do I think it would fall down under normal circumstances if you span that beam 10 feet instead of 6 (or 8 like I linked), no, not usually, but apparently from the following videos, the time things that are underbuilt fail are the worst times possible, when a bunch of people gather on a section of the deck for a photo or something and then it collapses. 

The first video the persons who built it used nails in the 6x6 posts instead of bolts. The whole deck was riding on about 12 nails in that section. The posts were run long upwards to also act as the handrail posts, so they didn't have the beam actually sitting on top of the posts. They could have at least through-bolted it with two 1/2 bolts in each post (or 4 bolts where two beams meet, 2 in each beam) instead of just nails, although like I mentioned, even though a lot of deck building books, websites, and inspectors will say this is fine, a lot or now requiring that the beam is on top of a post and not that the bolts are holding everything even though I have seen many docks and piers which are in salt water and are being held up by only the strength of bolts. as shown in the two photos below. But the best way to do the dock is to notch those telephone poles and then bolt it up. I'm just pointing out how apparently dock builders are getting away with having the whole load riding on bolts which is wrong. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDFNmRqrdc






































Looks like they might have just nailed this beam to the side of the posts also, and you can see in the beginning, the posts are no where near to code, they are like decorative interior banister ends or something. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRP2g3I8Q98


It's simple to notch posts and use bolts and the joist hangers to avoid problems. Safety first. I always thought hardware on a deck looks cool because it looks strong. 

When you get to the stairs, I have a very simple method that omits using any formulas or a framing square to cut the stringers in case you want help with that.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

"I thought you had solid rim joist already in the house frame for the back yard and only studs on the wraparound side, not studs on both. I don't like bolting into studs and never heard of putting blocking in between then to act as a rim joists but I guess that works."

Not sure you have the picture..let me try again.

First off, this deck is going to wrap an addition that has not been sided yet, not sheetrocked on the interior. We laid the ledger over the housewrap per Tyvek's instructions...and have over lay of housewrap a foot above that overlapping as required. Not sure what you mean by back yard?..Do you mean the face of the deck? That will have a solid 2x10x16, notched and bolted into the tree trunk posts, which are beefy, better than 6x6. The house ledger is lagged into studs 4 inches at 32" intervals...two lags per section. Is that what you thought I said? That is the part that is wrapped around, 8'x8'.


Not wanting to do free standing....now that sounds dangerous!


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

yea, I didn't know this was an addition and both sides that are having a deck are 2x4 studs walls without a solid rim joist to bolt the ledger to.


I would put that self-sealing membrane flashing also behind the ledger like someone mentioned because it can seal around the bolt holes, and use a drip edge flashing on top the ledger. 

Free standing is definitely unsafe but only if it's not braced properly. It's your choice. 

So you're using Cedar tree trunks for all the posts and not just decorative? How are you going to plumb an irregularly shaped trunk like that? That's unsafe if so. 

The only thing I'm wondering now is probably irrelevant, but maybe someone else can chime in, I'm wondering if you use a 6x6 post on an outside corner and it's holding the ends of two beams that make a 90 degree angle, can you like I said earlier, can you notch so much out of the 6x6 to accommodate the 4 2x10s that it leaves you only a 2"x2" peg sticking out of the 6x6 which then requires 4 1/2" bolts? There'd be almost no wood left.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

Not 2x4 studs...2x6. Does that help the picture any?

When a notch comes out of the wood my understanding is that the bolted 2x10 replaces that void. So strength is replaced. 

I have used tree trunks on my house with a lower deck. Plumb is found like any other, with a plumb bob. 

What did you mean by back yard? That continues to confuse me.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

I meant that cedar trunks might be sort of C shaped and thus over time might weaken. 

By saying backyard which was confusing you, I thought you had a basement or first level under the deck because you said it's 8 feet high. So I guess there's a door leading to the deck and the door's on a joist floor level, and those joist ends that sit on the foundation/header support of lower level are capped with a rim joist/band joist of solid wood Ok to bolt into, but that on the sides might have been the stud wall or something not solid, sort of like the pictures below where the 'backyard' has the solid rim joist but the sides don't.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

is it ez to post pix? I'd love to show you what I'm doing..worth a million words. My cedar is not bowed, lots of heart, not worried about them. Pretty straight. People have been building porches with them for 100's of years around here. 

I don't have that solid rim like you show, but I do have 2x6 studs on 16" centers. Does that help in your opinion? What about bolting the lagged ledger into another 2x fitted between the studs on the interior side, behind the OSB? Another thing I didn't mention is I have 6x8 beams running from the deck side wall in back to the old part of the addition, spanning 9'. That should stiffen up the addition at least on that wall.


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## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

I think to post pics you have to upload them somewhere like photobucket, have to sign up for it and then they spam your email and stuff, I don't think this forum lets you just Upload From Harddrive unfortunately, as you would think they would because of the nature of this forum.

Anyway, for bolting a ledger into a stud wall, I would either google that or start a thread titled just for that. People do it all the time. I guess adding 2x10 blocks behind the OSB in between each stud would only help the situation, you might even be able to omit bolting into the studs all together by doing that. Use carriage bolts instead of lags since you have such easy access to there and that'll support the deck in and outward, believe it or not it needs support that way. 
I hope I helped at least with the angle piece = find that double joist hanger that fits on the outer corner of a ledger or run two double 45 degree hangers a couple inches back from the ledger corner. Or just lay it on top the beam and not need joist hangers if for some reason you change your mind and make it freestanding with a beam close to the house.

and since you're using those big cedar trunks, you should have plenty of wood left on them after you notch the corner one out to accommodate two double 2X beams if you are indeed notching them, so that solves that. 

here, I skimmed through this, they're saying no bolt ledger to studs
Also there is a 20% reduction (NDS) in the lag screw rating for going into the side grain of lumber. Additionally the largest lag you can use in a 2x4 without exceeding notching/boring limitations is 3/8", and they have to be perfectly centered, you cannot use ½" lags on the narrow side of a load bearing 2x4 in the side grain.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f50/deck-ledger-mid-wall-23886/

but I have seen at least two decks pass inspection when the ledger was bolted into the studs with 1/2" lags. So it's up to you. 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bolt+deck+ledger+to+studs


And then there's probably this option, which I don't really know anything about, seems it would be okay without the added ledger it shows. Basically you would cut little rectangles out of the OSB to stick the ends of joists in through, nail them to the 2x6s, and then flash and caulk it perfectly and you'd have no ledger at all. You would put whatever siding the rest of the wall has in between the joists where the ledger would have been. 

2nd to last picture http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/26487/how-can-i-attach-a-ledger-board-to-my-house


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

I guess you missed the part where I said it was 2x6, and I have already lagged these studs on 32" centers with 3/8 4 inch lags. That was the recommendation by every person in the lumber yard field I talked to, and they all said 3/8 inch 4 long lags into the studs. 

I have not seen that solid rim here very much. Never crossed my mind or the mind of contractors who I've had work here that is was missing. And they are harsh on the previous workers, so if it was a deal, i think it would have been brought up. If I have to safety it by backing it up on one side with a 2x10 I will do that. I'll look in to your links which I really appreciate. Again...2x6 studs on 16 inch centers.


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## Jacey (Dec 7, 2011)

I had a chance to look at your links...but I'm with you about backing up the lag bolts. I talked to a contractor today who thought the problem would be any movement that might back the lags out or cause them to move. I can see that being a possibility. He is coming out Monday so hopefully I will resolve this once and for all. I believe we will wind up bolting between the studs on added 2x's behind the ledger, and this will also provide a support for the beams for the interior room. I really do appreciate your finding those very helpful links. I loved the quandary of the guy with the father in law and his overwhelm at his situation. I feel much better about my own situation, as this guy seemed to be even more on edge than me, with a much better grasp at least of the questions. Better too many questions than not enough!


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