# Talk me into or out of these miter saws (and stands)



## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

*Part I: Saws*

As I referenced in this thread: *http://www.diychatroom.com/f14/miter-saw-am-i-using-wrong-not-up-task-molding-189214/*, I'm due for a new miter saw. This one just isn't up to task anymore. It was great for my intended initial use - cutting my wood floor planks to length. Now that I've gotten into molding, I need something else. I'm on a borrowed DeWALT DW705 with the DW723 stand, and it obviously has a better capacity than what I currently own.

Every year, Christmas comes around and I tell my wife and mother "I don't need anything, don't worry about it." They never listen, and this translates into them buying stuff I don't need and me trying to find a place to put it. I figure this year I will go for something useful. Even if they don't buy it, I will.

*Intended uses planned so-far: crown molding, base trim & other types of finish molding; deck build, constructing a large built-in bookcase for my wife, and finishing the basement in our new house from bare concrete,* and whatever else may come up in between those planned projects. I'm a homeowner/DIY'er, so traveling to/from a jobsite every day is not a concern.

_Question:_ Do you even bother cutting your 2x lumber on a miter sawd (as in for a deck build), or just use a circular saw w/ a speed square?

I've done a lot of reading on this forum. I basically have it down between Bosch and Hitachi.

The Bosch Axial Glide *GSM12SD* has really caught my attention, as has the Hitachi *C12RSH*. 

On the flipside of that is the 10" vs 12" debate. Some will say the 12" blade deflects more than a 10" so it's not as good for trimwork. However, the 10" saws don't really support very much base trim standing straight up against the fence.

Any thoughts or guidance based on my intentions? I just don't want to run into limitations and kick myself. I'm not concerned with the cost difference between a 10" and 12" blade or that one has a wider selection than the other. I will probably own a finish blade and a cross-cut blade.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

*Part II: Saw Stands*

The stand on my Delta is a flexible deflecting piece of..... I'm using a DeWALT DW723 (Not the newer DWX723) and it's a lot better than what I own. I don't know how much the DWX723 improves over that one.

I might be better served by a mobile stand like the *DeWALT DWX726*, or for a bit more money, the *Bosch Gravity-Rise T4B*.

Does anyone have experience with either one (or preferably both)? I'd like a stand where I can set the height of the extensions and not worry about them bending with more weight or being too high with less weight. I'm _thinking_ the wheels would be nice for mobility, and both would fold up and pack away fairly neatly.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Both are fine saws, boils down to price.
I own the Hitachi and have not had any trouble in about 5 years.
The stand I own and like is this one.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/ac9944-miter-saw-utility-vehicle
One thing I like about it is the supports that flip down on the outriggers. The locks to keep the extensions from moving are cheap pot metal, rough use and they snap off. I just replaced them with eye bolts and it work perfect.
It's faster and easier to use saw horses when building most of a deck in my option. 
I would use the miter saw for things like the railings, risers and treads, cutting the 45's.
One place I check for pricing and reviews is Amazon.com, but then I also check CPO tools to see if they have any factory remanufactured. Anything I have ordered from them looks and works like brand new it's just less expensive.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

A couple of questions--------what is the tallest molding that can be cut standing up against the fence ?

Do either one have crown stops available?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

When cutting crown I just use one of these.
Makes it a whole lot easier for someone that rarely does it.
http://www.rockler.com/bench-dog-crown-cut


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That jig would slow me down-----you need to move it from side to side as you work.

also,what supports the crown on the other side of the saw? the crown would be away from the fence and above the table---

I think crown stops attached to the saw would be simpler to work with.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

dewalt 705 crown stops - Google Search


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

*Bosch*
Bevel Stops	:0°, 33.9°, 45° Left/Right
Miter Detents: 0°, 15°, 22.5°, 31.6°, 45° (Left/Right)
Miter Positive Stops: 0°, 15°, 22.5,° 31.6°, 45° (Left/Right), 60° (Right)

*Hitachi*
I imagine they have them too, but they don't list them in their specs?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> *Part II: Saw Stands*
> 
> The stand on my Delta is a flexible deflecting piece of..... I'm using a DeWALT DW723 (Not the newer DWX723) and it's a lot better than what I own. I don't know how much the DWX723 improves over that one.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't try talking anyone into or out of anything but I will say after building and using a 8 ft. long MS table made from a half sheet of cabinet grade plywood that's portable and easily stored I don't even give those wheeled tubing stands a second glance.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Fairview said:


> I wouldn't try talking anyone into or out of anything but I will say after building and using a 8 ft. long MS table made from a half sheet of cabinet grade plywood that's portable and easily stored I don't even give those wheeled tubing stands a second glance.


I agree, I won't use those stands either. I need somewhere set stuff on too.

If I have the room to set up I have my saw attached to a 20' plank with 8' of table flush to the saw on both sides. 

Sometimes I'll even have another long plank off the end of all that, a 40'+ long production line.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Holy cow. You guys have a pic of that setup?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

One thing to check when buying a miter saw is the side to side play in the saw. Pull the saw all the way down as far as it will go, pull it out, still all the way down, now apply side to side moderate pressure, check to see how much, if any, sideways play it has. You really don't want any play.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I have the same stand as Joe and love it. Easy to fold and unfold, bigger wheels make it easier to move over uneven ground. Never have to take the saw off the stand. My neighbor has the DeWalt every time you need to move it you have to remove the saw, no wheels so must make 2 trips, and a PITA to remove and replace the saw.
I guess the factor for me would be if you ever need to move it and how often.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I'm in the 'home made ' camp----I want full support under the trim---and a fence to keep crown molding from rolling over---so plywood for me----


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## Bird Doo Head (Dec 8, 2010)

*Money Saving Idea*

I'm by no means a miter saw expert, but here's a potential money saving idea.
I bought a Bosch 12" miter saw a few years ago. One of my brothers bought a Ryobi 12" miter saw about the same time. The tools looked identical. 

I was curious, so I checked at the Bosch service center. (While I was there buying a part for my Chinese made Bosch table saw.) The technician said the two miter saws are, indeed, the same tool, using the same parts. Both were built by TTI in China.

My Bosch tool cost about $350.00. My brother's Ryobi cost $129.00. Both are labeled as Made In China. Neither is German nor North American made. 

So, if there is a Ryobi equivalent, it may be the same saw for less.
Hope this is helpful.
Paul
PS: The saw is great. Holds true consistently. No problems at all.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Bird Doo Head said:


> I'm by no means a miter saw expert, but here's a potential money saving idea.
> I bought a Bosch 12" miter saw a few years ago. One of my brothers bought a Ryobi 12" miter saw about the same time. The tools looked identical.
> 
> I was curious, so I checked at the Bosch service center. (While I was there buying a part for my Chinese made Bosch table saw.) The technician said the two miter saws are, indeed, the same tool, using the same parts. Both were built by TTI in China.
> ...


Black and Decker and DeWalt made by same company but hardly the same tool.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Man, Bosch and Ryobi being the same tool shook me up. I know Ryobi is made in Hong Kong but everything I looked at pointed to Bosch being made in Germany. I know one thing, if Bosch has gone down to Ryobi standards it has really taken a step or two down. I have had both brands years back and I can tell you the Ryobi was shot within two months. It galded in the pivot point (not a slider) was worthless for trim.

The Skilsaw miter saw owned by Bosch is made in China but until I see first hand that Bosch is made in China I just can't bring myself to believe it. I found out Freud, Skill, Vermont America, Roto Zip, and Dremel belongs to Bosch.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Look at this over-achiever on GarageJournal! Brilliant.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Another.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

In the bottom picture of post #19 there is a DW708 mitersaw, that is one of the saws I have now. Notice how the slider bars are one over each other, the newer Dewalt saws slider bars are side by side. They also aren't built as heavy and the newer ones have more sideways play in them. 

They don't make the DW708 anymore, it was the last one made in the USA. If you can find one of the DW708 at a pawn shop you won't be disappointed. The DW708 is one of the best saws I have ever owned and I have owned many.

Just a note, I do not like Dewalt blades, they have way too much wobble in them.


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

Milwaukee 6955-20 12-Inch Sliding Dual Bevel Miter Saw with Digital Miter Angle Fine Adjust


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I guess the homemade vs store bought really depends on how your planning to use it. If it will be permanent in garage or workshop by all means make it, If you need it mobile then I would suggest store bought.
And for a saw I have a Ridgid 12" slider and really like it.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Dave88LX said:


> Look at this over-achiever on GarageJournal! Brilliant.


Mmmmmmm, tool pr0n...


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## Bird Doo Head (Dec 8, 2010)

Big Jim's Message-
The Skilsaw miter saw owned by Bosch is made in China but until I see first hand that Bosch is made in China I just can't bring myself to believe it. I found out Freud, Skill, Vermont America, Roto Zip, and Dremel belongs to Bosch.[/QUOTE]

Sad But True- At least sometimes....
Here's a photo of the tag on the Miter saw. i was mistaken. It was made in Taiwan. The table saw is also marked Taiwan, but its box says "China". Since Taiwan is now Taiwan, ROC, I suppose that's virtually the same thing.

Both tools were built by TTI (Techtronic Industries) of Hong Kong, according to the Bosch service center person. TTI owns & makes Ryobi.

I have a Bosch hammer drill marked Made In Switzerland (piece of junk since day one) and a Bosch Demolition Hammer made in USA (a very good tool). My Roto Zip was Made In Mexico. (Also a good tool)

I suppose if the tool was _designed_ by Bosch and built to Bosch standards with materials approved by Bosch, place of assembly should not impact the quality of the tool. I'd rather my money went to Made In USA products. 

My "Huh? What?" moment was that I paid so much more because mine has a fancy Bosch name plate _vs_ my brother's identical Ryobi saw.

Such Is Life!
Paul


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

It's fair to say that stuff made is Taiwan is often "less worse" than some of the junk that comes out of mainland China factories. 

The problem with being 'built to specs' is the 3rd party factories often cheat and try using substandard methods and/or materials as a cost-savings measure. Often substituting inferior plastics and other materials. Like not using impact resistant plastics, but instead cheaper, more brittle stuff that costs maybe a few cents less. Dial that across thousands of items and that factory makes more money... by cheating the customers.

This is generally referred to euphemistically as "quality fade". 
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/quality-fade-chinas-great-business-challenge/

It's made worse by using factory-direct shipping. Since the items don't go through an actual warehouse owned by the ordering company they don't get inspected. Likewise the distributors aren't unboxing anything, nor the retailers. It's only after thousands of them are in the hands of customers, and failing, that anyone notices the theft. 

While elevating the Chinese out of Maoist nonsense has been a laudable goal, it's not without it's hassles. Sadly, cheating bastards are no new phenomenon.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Dave88LX said:


> Holy cow. You guys have a pic of that setup?


As you can see and it has already been stated there is a wide range of needs so a wide range of designs from as you said " over-achiever" to the under- achiever like mine.

I'm not in a business but I do need to transport it on occasion to the kids property or to the hunting lease with generator etc. It's about 8ft. long with the saw located about the 5 ft. mark from the right and to be placed across saw horses or laid on a bench. If the kids don't have saw horses that's their problem. :laughing: They can use it on the dirt or across two anythings they have but not me.

Two things modified after initial construction.
1) the fence was removed and a dust relief grove established by cutting a small champfer on the far corner of table where it joins the fence.

2) the saw weight slightly bows the table in that area and for some work that doesn't matter to me. For more accurate work I devised a 2 piece adjustable leg to support that area.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Dag nabit, I had a pretty good post going and it got shot out of the water, oh well. 

Paul, thank you for going to the trouble of posting the pictures, I am a believer now. How sad that one of the top tool makers just joined the no buy tools for me. I know Bosch has factories all over the world and the tools may be good but I won't chance my money on the ones made in China or there abouts. I am not saying they aren't good tools, I am just afraid to chance it myself.

Thanks for the link wkearney99, that was a good read and very true.

I guess I will let the fellows still out there pounding nails tell you which saw is best because I don't know now, other than my Dewalt DW708 being a fantastic saw, I can't say. I just hope Makita is still the tool they use to be. 

As for a miter saw stand, you can't beat a sheet of 3/4 plywood slung over a set of horses, plenty of room to work and hold all the scrap off fall.LOL I like the plywood because I use to assemble a lot of my hard crown cuts together on the table and put up in a large section instead of one piece at a time, (saves the old legs climbing). The plywood was perfect to put the pieces together on. 

I have had a few of the store bought mitersaw stands and liked all of them, some better than others, but I still had a sheet of Plywood set up to work on on the jobsite.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

the newer model dewalt saws are bad for the head of the saw deflecting and are underpowered.. god only knows why they would have a more powerful motor on their 7 1/4 circ saw than a 12" mitre saw.. it has to turn a larger blade

hitachi saws are accurate powerful saws however their very heavy and really awkard to carry, if your going to be karting it around regularly i wouldnt get that saw. if its going to sit in a shop youll be fine

bosch has pretty much lead the market in mitre saws for about 8 years, both with the 5212 and 5210 sliders. and more recently the axial glide 12 " and now the 10" axial that comes out any day now. tons of power, very precise and much easier to calibrate than the dewalts

milwaukee's 12" slider is pretty much neck and neck with the bosch axial glide in most saw reviews. i have this saw and love it. the only complaint about it is the fence on the right of hte blade doesnt slide it has to be removed when making bevel cuts.

my other saw is the Bosch 4212L non sliding dual compound 12". extremely accurate, tons of power and is packaged with crown stops. its done its job well for 6 years but now its getting a bit sloppy as the dead stops are worn down


saw stand wise the ridgid MSVU is great, i have my bosch mounted on it, its based on the bosch gravity rise stand. my milwaukee came with its own stand which is ok, i prefer the ridgid stand. Dewalts older style stands are complete garbage.. the material supports come off the extension arms way too easy and are a nightmare to remount as the stand gets older... the company has 2 of them and both are pretyt much ready for the garbage, one of which is only 2 years old


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Have you seen one of these miter/table saws?


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

i havent seen that one specifically other than online. ive seen knock off versions.. im pretty sure the whole idea got canned as its too much of a saftey risk and warrenty issue do to so many moving parts


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Porter Cable was the last made in USA power tool co. now they are gone.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

Let me know if anyone comes across the Bosch saw on a Cyber Monday deal. :laughing:


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