# painting kitchen cabinet help..



## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mopower440 said:


> Hi all. I am new at this so please bear with me.. I have the vinyl wrapped thermofoil kitchen cabinets in my house and want to paint them white. I have done some research and they say to clean them GOOD with TSP and give them a LIGHT sanding with 220 grit sandpaper then use a good bonding primer. ok, so far, i am leaning towards zinsser BIN primer.. Is that acceptable? Next is the paint, i have read that i really need to use oil base because it is harder and tougher, so i can actually clean the cabinets without taking the paint off. Then i also read how much of a pain oil based paint is to clean and all. Then i also read that there are some water based type paints such as benjamin moores advance that will be tough like oil based but i can clean the brushes with water, but runs easy and is hard to use. ok, what paint type do i use here? obviously i would love to be able to get away with something that will clean up with water but i am not a pro-painter and dont want to fight runs and all. any suggestions here? Should i just go ahead with oil based?
> Thanks!


 
Forget the TSP and just clean with Dirtex or Krud Kutter
You do not need or want Bin, Zinsser 123 will work, or Cover Stain
BM, Satin Impervo water borne or SW, Pro Classic for finish, forget the oil( it will yellow)


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Just my $.02 what I like is advance for spraying, SW pro classic for brushing. Having said that let me add I have brushed advance and I do spray pro classic. I really like like both paints but in my opinion advance is a little more prone to runs than the pro classic. I really like the end finish of the Advance but I feel the long drying time between coats can be a disadvantage. But I agree forget the oil.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

chrisn said:


> Forget the TSP and just clean with Dirtex or Krud Kutter
> You do not need or want Bin, Zinsser 123 will work, or Cover Stain
> BM, Satin Impervo water borne or SW, Pro Classic for finish, forget the oil( it will yellow)


Keep in mind these ar the vinyl laminated cabinets, that's why I was thinking I needed the BIN primer because the primer needs to adhere to the vinyl on the cabinets and BIN is supposed to be awesome for that. Does the cover stain and 123 stick good to laminated cabinets also?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

My first experience painting laminate was trim in a mobile home. Both the trim and the cabinets had the same vinyl laminate. I did several adhesion tests before picking a primer, Bin was my last resort because its somewhat difficult to work with. But it was the only thing that would bond really well. 

Generally, vinyl surfaces are no problem to paint with other less aggressive primers, but there seems to be something about the laminate that makes it extra hard to get a good bond on. I know Bin will work. It's what I used on a small set of laminated cabs this fall. 

It might be worth it to do some tests on the back side of a door to see if something like the 123, or Coverstain would work. Give it a couple days to dry, then try to scratch it off with a fingernail. If it holds firm, your good to go. For a DIY, avoiding using Bin (if possible) would be a good thing. 

Advance and products like it, are oil modified or hybrid paints. They are basically alkyd resins suspended in water rather than mineral spirits. They will give you the end result of an oil base paint (a durable alkyd paint film), with the ease of use of a latex paint. If maximum hardness and durability are your main goals, Advance would be a good choice. It does have some application quirks that aren't there with a regular latex, but its still far easier to use than a standard oil paint.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, I'm doing this on a tight budget, that's why I want to get the right primer the first time so figured I woujld ask here. This is also in a mobile home.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mopower440 said:


> Keep in mind these ar the vinyl laminated cabinets, that's why I was thinking I needed the BIN primer because the primer needs to adhere to the vinyl on the cabinets and BIN is supposed to be awesome for that. Does the cover stain and 123 stick good to laminated cabinets also?


 
yes it will


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

after more researching, i think i am going to try and find that 'cabinet coat' and use that, most seem to like it and said it was friendly to use. Now, chrisn, out of the coverstain and 123, which would be the best for adhering to the laminated cabinets as i definately DONT want any paint or primer peeling problems..? also, to get the closest finish to spraying i can get using a roller and brush, can you tell me what kinds of brush and roller to get?
Thanks!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Removing the cabinet doors and laying them flat to paint and dry will probably do more than anything to help you achieve a level finish. Then any reasonably well leveling paint can be applied generously and it will level out nicely.

I haven't used Cabinet Coat but supposedly it dries quickly and that could be a bit difficult for you in terms of workability.

Personally I think B-I-N is fine and is a little more annoying than "difficult". It's very runny and drippy and that can be a pain. I like the smell but some people hate it. I'd rather use an alcohol based primer than an oil based one. Of course water based would be the most convenient. But if you like B-I-N, I think you should go for it.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mopower440 said:


> after more researching, i think i am going to try and find that 'cabinet coat' and use that, most seem to like it and said it was friendly to use. Now, chrisn, out of the coverstain and 123, which would be the best for adhering to the laminated cabinets as i definately DONT want any paint or primer peeling problems..? also, to get the closest finish to spraying i can get using a roller and brush, can you tell me what kinds of brush and roller to get?
> Thanks!


 
123 will work just fine

I like Purdy Pro-Extra Glide Nylon/Polyester/Chinex 2 1/2 inch

ArroWorthy( or other quality) microfiber 3/8 in


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Is that 123 called bullseye 123 or just 123? Seems like all I saw is zinsser bullseye 123..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Also, is thyat a foam roller or?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes that's the same primer. And no micro fiber is not foam it will say micro fiber on the cover.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ah ok, I need the micro fiber roller not foam. Ok, also, I'm being told to roll it on the doors then quickly go back over it with a brush to get the smoothest look without orange peel caused by the roller, is that correct


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> ah ok, I need the micro fiber roller not foam. Ok, also, I'm being told to roll it on the doors then quickly go back over it with a brush to get the smoothest look without orange peel caused by the roller, is that correct


 That's how I like to do it. Using the roller lets you get the paint on the surface faster than brushing alone, and a final stroke of the brush helps smooth it out.
You have to be pretty quick about it, and really fast drying products (like Bin) there really isn't enough 'open time to make that method work.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> Is that 123 called bullseye 123 or just 123? Seems like all I saw is zinsser bullseye 123..





Jmayspaint said:


> That's how I like to do it. Using the roller lets you get the paint on the surface faster than brushing alone, and a final stroke of the brush helps smooth it out.
> You have to be pretty quick about it, and really fast drying products (like Bin) there really isn't enough 'open time to make that method work.


I'm not going to use the BIN. I'm going to try the 123 that chrisn recomended.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

jmayspaint has a point - I forgot about the shorter working time, so it might be more difficult.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

as far as the brush and roller go, is there anything else i need to look for besides the name, like bristle softness or knap of the roller?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

man i just dont know what to do now. I have been watching youtube videos on painting cabinets and all i see are comments on how brush painting cabinets always look BAD and the only way they should be painted is by spraying them, which i cant do.. This sucks, i was ready to go buy paint and primer today..


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

mopower440 said:


> man i just dont know what to do now. I have been watching youtube videos on painting cabinets and all i see are comments on how brush painting cabinets always look BAD and the only way they should be painted is by spraying them, which i cant do.. This sucks, i was ready to go buy paint and primer today..


Cabinets have been painted with brush and roller for years. Is it easy no, with the cabinets up it's easy to get runs. Remember 2 light coats are much better than a heavy coat. 
You said you were going to use Advance this should be a good paint to brush if you are careful. It has a slow dry time this means if you have a problem, like a run you have time to brush it out. 
When you roll it on then go back with the brush to smooth it out, you want to just use the tips of the paint brush don't use it like your applying the paint.
For just smoothing the paint I would get a soft bristle brush. And the roller for this app. if I could get it I would use 1/4" nap.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

heck with it! they are in bad shape so im going to go ahead and brush and roller paint them as planned.. Hopefully they wont look to bad. again, any recomendations on The brush and roller besides the brands listed above, like the softness of the bristles or roller or anything? Sorry for all the questions but im new at this and want to do it right..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ToolSeeker said:


> Cabinets have been painted with brush and roller for years. Is it easy no, with the cabinets up it's easy to get runs. Remember 2 light coats are much better than a heavy coat.
> You said you were going to use Advance this should be a good paint to brush if you are careful. It has a slow dry time this means if you have a problem, like a run you have time to brush it out.
> When you roll it on then go back with the brush to smooth it out, you want to just use the tips of the paint brush don't use it like your applying the paint.
> For just smoothing the paint I would get a soft bristle brush. And the roller for this app. if I could get it I would use 1/4" nap.


Just read this after my last reply. ok, so soft bristle for the after roller. and 1/4 nap microfiber roller? Will that soft bristle also work for the cabinet boxes on the smaller pieces that make up the door opening?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes. If it was me and you being new I would get a 2" angle brush.I feel this will give you the control you need.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

awesome thanks! As for giving the laminated cabinets a light sanding BEFORE the primer goes on, what grit do you recomend? Im thinking 220 so it doesnt tear into the laminate?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

220 should be fine you really just need to scuff it up so its not so smooth and glossy.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok, went and got some of the supplies but could not find the brush or roller recommended. Lowes had the purdy pro extra but only in stiff bristle. no place had the roller recomended. Is the roller a must or can i do as good with brush only? also, They did have wooster brushes, is there a model of wooster that will work? Thanks


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

A regular paint store will have these supplies. Yes Wooster makes a 2" soft bristle angled brush. You could just use a 4" roller cover in the shortest nap they have, but I don't believe it will do as nice a job.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

As tool said, go to a real paint store


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Wooster makes fine brushes. A lot of people are telling you to go to a "real" paint store, but "real" paint stores are going to carry Purdy and Wooster as well. Yes, you might find another brand like Corona, but that doesn't matter. Any store such as Lowes, Home Depot (especially Home Depot over Lowes), Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, or even Ace Hardware, which carries Benjamin Moore brushes.

As I said, take the cabinets off and lay them flat - that will help you a lot in terms of getting nice level finish. That way you can lay on a thicker coat that will level better, and it won't run. The reason you see bad results on YouTube is most people don't have a clue how to brush. If you get a good quality leveling paint on there, then after the paint is on go across it again with a single brush stroke, and your doors are laying flat, it will be fine. Do not overwork the paint, and don't put it on so thin that it dries in 30 seconds.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes I plan to take the doors off, just hope I can do the sides of the boxes without it running since they will still be on the wall.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Those will be more challenging. You might also want to consider a paint "extender", such as Floetrol or XIM Xtender for better flow and working time. Using a paint with those qualities built in to begin with helps too, obviously.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

In an earlier post you said you were thinking of using Ben Moore Advance. I don't have it in front of me at the moment but I don't think you can use extenders with that paint. With this paint you shouldn't need them as it has a long open time. Pro classic is a whole different ball game.
That is why a lot of times we ask what paint you are using, not to start a brand war, but to give you the best advice.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Don't forget to mark the doors as you take them down. I number them under where the hinge goes, then cover the number with a small piece of tape. After they are painted pull the tape off to reveal the number. When the hinges go on, the number is covered.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> In an earlier post you said you were thinking of using Ben Moore Advance. I don't have it in front of me at the moment but I don't think you can use extenders with that paint. With this paint you shouldn't need them as it has a long open time.


Good point, I was thinking straight acrylics. Don't know if you can mix extenders with water borne alkyds, but I doubt it. Maybe Penetrol (but maybe not) or perhaps XIM makes another product. But probably not needed anyway.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

no, after reading a lot ive decided to use cabinet coat by insl-x (benjamin moore). Everyone says it levels out so easily with no brush marks and is VERY durable. It is like advance though as it can be cleaned up with water..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

also, they are saying if you use a DENSE FOAM roller, it turns out awesome. You guys recommended a microfiber roller, do you all still recommend that and if so, why? Remember, im new at this so im asking because i dont know..


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Using a foam roller can work great. It's just a different approach than using a microfiber and brushing it out. 

If your going to use a foam roller, you won't want to brush it out. The idea with foam is to use dense roller to create a tight even stipple. Done this way, its possible to approximate a sprayed finish. I will sometimes use foam on the boxes and frames of a set of cabs when I spray the doors. 

But for a novice doing a whole set of doors... I don't know if using a foam roller is going to be better. 
They are a little tricky to use. For one thing they hold very little paint, so you have to dip more often. It's very easy to overwork the paint with one, can be difficult to spread the paint, and they tend to put on a thinner coat. 

Then again, I'm picturing your doors as flat with no raised panels. It might not be too bad to roll them with a foam.. Whizz is a common brand, they come in 4 and 6 inch. If your going to try it, I would use a 6" on the doors and a 4" on the frames. 

Either way can work well, and it depends on your taste as well. If you roll and back brush, you will get some brush marks. If you use foam, you will have some stipple..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> Using a foam roller can work great. It's just a different approach than using a microfiber and brushing it out.
> 
> If your going to use a foam roller, you won't want to brush it out. The idea with foam is to use dense roller to create a tight even stipple. Done this way, its possible to approximate a sprayed finish. I will sometimes use foam on the boxes and frames of a set of cabs when I spray the doors.
> 
> ...


you are correct, my doors are just flat panels with no raised panels. In your honest opinion, which way do you say i should do it being a novice? I want them to look as good as possible..


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

The rolling/back brushing method can produce a real smooth job. idk though, foam might be easier to get a uniform finish with less of a learning curve. Especially if brush strokes are a concern. 

You could try doing the backs of the doors with the foam. That would give you a chance to get the hang of it and see if you liked the finish. 

I haven't used the cabinet coat, but it looks similar to other modified acrylics. So the open time and leveling should be pretty good.

One thing I tried years ago that worked pretty well on slab doors was to roll them with a mini microfiber roller like we've been talking about, then instead of brushing them out, do one final roll with a foam roller. The microfiber spreads the paint so much faster and thicker than the foam roller that it was worth it to use them both.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Will try both on a test piece. As for laying down the primer, what's the best method between brush, roller. Etc?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

I got the soft bristle brush, a 4 and 6 inch roller with boath foam and microfiber, shortest nap i could find was 3/8..? Im guessing i can wash these rollers and re-use them? also, can anyone tell me the best way to lay down the primer, brush or roller?
Thanks


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> I got the soft bristle brush, a 4 and 6 inch roller with boath foam and microfiber, shortest nap i could find was 3/8..? Im guessing i can wash these rollers and re-use them? also, can anyone tell me the best way to lay down the primer, brush or roller?
> Thanks



Roll it on and brush it out, same as the finish is what I would do.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

And yes, you can reuse the roller naps. For day to day storage during the project they can just be wrapped up, no need to wash them everyday. 

I like to wrap them in a grocery bag, and then wrap a damp cloth around it. The roller will stay wet several days as long as its air tight.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok, i got everything ready to get started! i have a few more questions first. 
1. does 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of paint sound right?
2. after primer dries, will 220 grit be ok to sand the primer or do i need finer grit?
3. as far as sanding the first coat of paint, is 220 grit also ok or do i need finer grit?
4. how long do i need to wait after i prime before i paint and also how long between paint coats? also, how long CAN i actually wait between primering and painting? Im hard pressed for time so i may have to wait the max time between primer and paint and between paint coats.....


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

mopower440 said:


> ok, i got everything ready to get started! i have a few more questions first.
> 1. does 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of paint sound right?
> 2. after primer dries, will 220 grit be ok to sand the primer or do i need finer grit?
> 3. as far as sanding the first coat of paint, is 220 grit also ok or do i need finer grit?
> 4. how long do i need to wait after i prime before i paint and also how long between paint coats? also, how long CAN i actually wait between primering and painting? Im hard pressed for time so i may have to wait the max time between primer and paint and between paint coats.....


1.Yes
2.Yes 220 will be fine
3.220 will work
4.look on the can it will tell you how long to wait. It will also be on the paint can how long to wait between coats.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> And yes, you can reuse the roller naps. For day to day storage during the project they can just be wrapped up, no need to wash them everyday.
> 
> I like to wrap them in a grocery bag, and then wrap a damp cloth around it. The roller will stay wet several days as long as its air tight.


Especially in the refrigerator.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

so just take the brush/roller, with paint on it, and wrap it up in a plastic grocery bag and wrap a damp cloth around it? for how many days is that safe to do?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

also, any good ideas for cleaning up? Normally i would take the stuff out to the garden hose and clean it all up, but, since the temps are below freezing, the hose is froze..


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> so just take the brush/roller, with paint on it, and wrap it up in a plastic grocery bag and wrap a damp cloth around it? for how many days is that safe to do?



If you will wrap the roller in a bag, damp cloth on top if that, and another bag on top of that to keep the rag moist, it will keep 2-3 days at room temp. Like Jeff said, putting it in the refrigerator will keep it fresh longer, perhaps a week. 

With a brush I like to wash them more often. They will start to get stuff and gummy from use pretty quick. It's worth cleaning out the brush every day, or at least every two. 

How well your tools keep depends a lot on how you treat them during use. It's good practice to keep your work pot, and roller pans covered when not in use. For example, if you take a coffee break, don't leave your roller or brush bucket sitting exposed to air for that period of time. Even if its just 5min, cover it with a damp cloth or grocery bag.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> also, any good ideas for cleaning up? Normally i would take the stuff out to the garden hose and clean it all up, but, since the temps are below freezing, the hose is froze..



any advice on this?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

For my brush I usually clean it a couple times a day once around noon then when done for the day. I mix 1/2 cup of fabric softener to a gallon of water. Swish the brush around for about 30 seconds. then rinse under warm water. Not as picky with the roller just put it in a bag as suggested till done painting or color change then use the same mix to clean roller cover.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

is it ok for this paint to go down the drain? Thats the only way i could rinse with warm water is in the sink..?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes be sure to scrap the excess off before you clean. Then after you swish in the water fabric softener there should be very little paint left in the brush.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> Especially in the refrigerator.


 
what is the logic behind this?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I think it's the cool moist air in the fridge will help it from drying out more than say wrapping it in plastic then put it in a hot garage. I used to hear put it in the freezer, thankfully don't hear this anymore.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

ToolSeeker said:


> I think it's the cool moist air in the fridge will help it from drying out more than say wrapping it in plastic then put it in a hot garage. I used to hear put it in the freezer, thankfully don't hear this anymore.




Yea, that's what it is. I have always heard that would work but never tried it till recently. I painted some doors in my own house, wrapped the brush up and put it in the fridge. I forgot about it for a while. A week later it was still soft.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yea, that's what it is. I have always heard that would work but never tried it till recently. I painted some doors in my own house, wrapped the brush up and put it in the fridge. I forgot about it for a while. A week later it was still soft.


 
That would NEVER happen in my house, the wife would blow a fuse:yes:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't clean rollers, so that's why I roll them in Saran Wrap, and if there's a 'frig I can use, I use it. Brushes are easier to clean than rollers, so I don't bother with plastic for them. I clean them as quickly as possible. Also, get in the habit of priming your brush before use and I think you'll find it cleans easier.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> I don't clean rollers, so that's why I roll them in Saran Wrap, and if there's a 'frig I can use, I use it. Brushes are easier to clean than rollers, so I don't bother with plastic for them. I clean them as quickly as possible. Also, get in the habit of priming your brush before use and I think you'll find it cleans easier.


priming the brush??


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes if you are using latex paint wet your brush with water really good then spin off the excess, if you are using oil use mineral spirits. This will keep the paint at the top of the brush from becoming hard.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

should i still prime a dry brush when im only using the brush for the laying off after i have used a roller to apply the paint?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

mopower440 said:


> should i still prime a dry brush when im only using the brush for the laying off after i have used a roller to apply the paint?


It certainly won't hurt anything either way.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

well, as i said, i have bought all the material and the paint was expensive but now im having a hard time bringing myself to paint them..lol.. The laminate coating on one side of the kitchen (under the sink) is in bad shape and really dont mind painting them, but the cabonets accross from them are perfect and even though they are laminate, they look nice, like maple wood. wondering how bad it would look if i painted the one wall of cabinets white and left the wall of cabinets across from them the maple laminate..?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

update and questions: 
I prepped and primed the backside of a door for practice and to try a few things. so far i have cleaned, sanded and have done 2 coats of primer. 1 coat rolled on with the microfiber roller did not seem to be enough. looked like if i even touched it with sandpaper it would all be gone. not really sure why 1 coat didnt look to be enough being everyone has said 1 will be fine..?

as for the painting. Im going to do half of the door with the 3/8 nap microfiber roller and lay it off with the brush. on the other half of the door, im going to try the dense foam roller, then see which one looks better. I understand how to roll it on with the microfiber roller and lay it off with the brush. Now, with the foam roller, should i still apply the paint with the microfiber roller and THEN go over it with the foam roller or should i just apply it with the foam roller and thats it?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

One drawback to a foam roller is that they don't hold much paint. This can make it tricky to get a good coat on because you have to dip so often and the lack of any 'nap' on them makes spreading the paint a challenge. They tend to slide around when fully loaded rather than roll. 

You might find it easier to spread the paint with your microfiber, then smooth it out with the foam.

One thing though, as you work on a set of doors using this method the foam roller will get more and more loaded with paint. This will change the texture that it leaves somewhat. You don't want the foam to be totally dry, but not dripping with paint either. 

It can be handy to keep a scrap piece of cardboard around to roll the excess out of the foam roller on. With practice, you can find the sweet spot where foam has just enough paint on it. 

Don't put too much pressure on the roller. And don't overwork the paint. Try to spread it evenly with the microfiber, and then just make one or two light passes with the foam at the end.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

hmmm, sounds a lot tricky, i may just forget the foam roller and do the microfiber roller and lay off with brush and be done, sounds easier for a novice like me..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

The brush i got for the 'laying off' is an angled brush, should i get a straight one for this?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

The brush i got for the 'laying off' is an angled brush, should i get a straight one for this?

also, should i prime a dry microfiber roller before starting same as the brush? If so, whats the best way to get the excess water off being i dont have a spinner?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

The angle of the brush shouldn't matter. Just hold the handle at an angle so the bristles are straight. 

One way to moisten a roller is to wrap it with a wet rag and squeeze. That gets the nap wet without leaving a lot of excess water. 
Or you can spin it out on the frame. Use a clean porch post or something that can get wet, roll the roller down it quickly and let it spin out at the end.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

well, i just got through applying the first cote and am NOT happy so far. I applied the paint with the microfiber roller then layed it off with the brush. It is showing brush marks more than i would think according to what i have heard about the cabinet coat paint. so i went back over half the door with the foam roller but can still see brush marks through it..Paint says not to use any reducers with it, ready for use as is..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

just went and looked at it and its dry to the touch and does look a good bit better, will sand and apply coat #2 on tuesday. I do have a question though, ok, as far as laying the paint down, i am using the microfiber roller. Now, as i said, i am laying it off on half with the brush and the other half with the foam roller so i can then choose which way to do it before doing the faces of the door. How do i prep the brush and the foam roller to lay it off since the paint will already be on the doors from the microfiber roller? The brush and foam roller will be dry, do i need to prime them with water? Do i need to dip them in the tray to get paint on them first before using them to layoff the paint? This will help to know. After i applied the paint with the microfiber, i didnt know what to do besides dampen the brush with water and then layoff with it, and on the other half with the foam, i didnt know..??


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

??anyone?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Do i need to dip them in the tray to get paint on them first before using them to layoff the paint?

yes


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

Are the doors off? It's much easier to roll a smooth coat of paint on when they are horizontal. I pour the paint onto the surface then roll it. The thinner the foam the better. Viscosity and technique are key.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes the doors are off. And I am applying the paint with the microfibet then going over it with the foam roller or brush, that's why I wanted to know if I still needed to get paint on the foam roller or brush since it is already on the doors from the microfiber roller


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> Yes the doors are off. And I am applying the paint with the microfibet then going over it with the foam roller or brush, that's why I wanted to know if I still needed to get paint on the foam roller or brush since it is already on the doors from the microfiber roller


I've painted literally thousands of boards with a foam roller 1/4" thick and always poured it on and roller it with no other tool. It's easier to add some paint then taking some off. You should roll one way, then perpendicular. Finish with very light strokes, not much more than the weight of the roller. How smooth it levels out depends upon the paint, viscosity and how fast it sets up.


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

Floetrol added to the paint gives a longer open time and levels the paint out better. However, if you want super smooth "perfect" doors, the only way you get that is by spraying. Manual application will always have some tells.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Live_Oak;1294730[COLOR=red said:


> ]Floetrol added to the paint gives a longer open time and levels the paint out better[/COLOR]. However, if you want super smooth "perfect" doors, the only way you get that is by spraying. Manual application will always have some tells.


 
not always:no: it depends on the paint


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

what do you mean by 'you should roll one way, then perpendicular'?
also, i have done another coat and between the brush and the foam roller, i think im going with the foam roller. cant seem to get the brush marks out much. The foam roller is leaving more orange peel than i like also. All the reviews ive read on this paint says it levels beautifully and literally no brushmarks, yet, it is not turning out like that. It is very thick paint. The can says dont thin it, but the tech sheet on their website says if you have to thin it to use water, what do you all think about thinning it a little bit with water?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

what are you using( for paint)?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

chrisn said:


> what are you using( for paint)?


insl-x cabinet coat (benjamin moore)


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> what do you mean by 'you should roll one way, then perpendicular'?
> also, i have done another coat and between the brush and the foam roller, i think im going with the foam roller. cant seem to get the brush marks out much. The foam roller is leaving more orange peel than i like also. All the reviews ive read on this paint says it levels beautifully and literally no brushmarks, yet, it is not turning out like that. It is very thick paint. The can says dont thin it, but the tech sheet on their website says if you have to thin it to use water, what do you all think about thinning it a little bit with water?


Perpendicular means a 90 degree angle. To simplify, roll north/south then east/west. That evens out the coat. A heavy coat won't smooth out as much. If it's thick I doubt it will be smooth. I would thin the paint to where it works regardless of what the can says. If you do multiple layers and sand in between you can get a good build up of paint. Technique takes time and you really have to develop a feel for it. There's a reason people make a living at it.

I would pick one door (or panel of something) and practice until you get satisfactory results.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mopower440 said:


> insl-x cabinet coat (benjamin moore)


 
a LITTLE water will not hurt, but you really should not need it


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok, will try a little water, it seems awefully thick to me..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

I think it may be that it drys so fast that its messing me up. Ive read that you have to have it layed down and layed off within 30 seconds. Im doing it quick as i can but not in 30 seconds..


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Your probably right. Modern acrylics dry very fast. 
The smoothest looking paint film is one that had time flow out before it dries. When your still spreading it as it starts to dry, tool marks become more prevalent. 

That's one advantage to using the roller first. It's puts more paint on faster than brushing alone.... But you still gotta be quick.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

well, tried again, thinned with a little water. Used microfiber roller to apply the paint and went over half of the door with the brush and left the other half alone. Still, terrible brush marks being left, but to my surprise, the side that i left alone looks quite good! Not sure why it would look better being applied with a 3/8 nap microfiber roller than it did with a high density foam roller....anyone know?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

still a little much orange peel though. May abort this project and just live with the few beat up cabinet doors instead of ruining all of them by painting them.. Very dissapointed after spending all this money on this paint that was rated so good for leveling out and 'dissapearing brush marks'..what a dissapointment


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

It isn't easy to get professional results right away. Sounds like you have the right tools and product, it just takes time to develop the skills. Painting is one of those things that takes some feel to get right.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't know what to do. Is it possible that the microfiber roller can give the best results instead of going over it with the foam roller or brush olr is it just me not doing right?


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

I've never used a microfiber roller and wouldn't think it would be the best choice for a smooth finish. The foam one would work. Maybe it's drying too fast, have you tried it out in the garage? Bring it in to dry if you do.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

No its so cold out I don't know what would happen in the garage.


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## Rango (Dec 13, 2013)

You might choose a different time for the project.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

why the garage?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

When you pull your brush through it you are just using the very tips of bristles right. Don't pull through it like your painting it, and use long strokes don't start and stop.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

yes, thats how i did it. I also tried just lightly going over it with the foam roller and it leaves the orange peel look. I wonder if you can do like auto painting, they wet sand and buff the final coat for a smooth finish, is there something like this i can do with really fine sandpaper?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

After the paint is thoroughly dry you can buff it with a piece of cardboard or a paper bag. Doing that can make the surface very smooth to the touch, and reduce the orange peeling effect of the roller somewhat... It won't really help with visible brush strikes though.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok. Im just not understanding why its not levelling like they say, especially with the foam roller, it shouldnt leave the orange peel look, right?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Now you know why I hate foam rollers. Have never used the paint you did so I kept quiet. Really the only way to get perfectly smooth finnish is by spraying but that's a whole nother issue.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Would adding a little water to the paint to thin it some help with the leveling since this paint is quite thick?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

well, i have started the project. I have one section of the cabinet doors, drawers and boxes sanded and primed! All is going well except there is one drawer that has 2 brown spots that keep appearing through the primer. I have 4 coats of primer on it and it still bleeds through it. I am using the zinsser 123 primer and it says it seals stains. I did fill in 2 small chips with elmers wood filler, not sure if thats whats showing through it or not. Can i sprays some zinsser BIN over these 2 small spots or can i not use BIN over 123?
Thanks


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Spot priming with Bin is fine. I like to prime back over the Bin spots again with the regular primer. The spots of Bin can show a sheen differential through the top coats.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok thanks, just making sure i could use oil (BIN) over latex (123)


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

also, could i use floetrol to help with the brushmarks? Im not sure if the insl-x cabinet coat can be used with it..? Its the waterborn acrylic something or other..


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> also, could i use floetrol to help with the brushmarks? Im not sure if the insl-x cabinet coat can be used with it..? Its the waterborn acrylic something or other..



My guess would be no. I don't know for sure about the insl-x, but for other modified acrylics similar to it, floetrol is not compatible.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

mopower440 said:


> ok thanks, just making sure i could use oil (BIN) over latex (123)


Bin is not oil.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

Really? I thought it was and that's why everyone said don't use it.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> Really? I thought it was and that's why everyone said don't use it.



It is shellac based, cleans up with denatured alcohol. .Compatible with oil and latex top coats. It's very fast drying. Great product, but can be difficult to work with for a novice.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

But I can use it over the top of 123 which is latex?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

mopower440 said:


> But I can use it over the top of 123 which is latex?



Yes...


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

ok thanks. One other thing, after i sand the primer, i have been doing the final wipedown with regular old rubbing alcohol, is that ok or will it hurt the primer?
Thanks for all the help!


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mopower440 said:


> ok thanks. One other thing, after i sand the primer, i have been doing the final wipedown with regular old rubbing alcohol, is that ok or will it hurt the primer?
> Thanks for all the help!


 
 what on earth for?


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

chrisn said:


> what on earth for?


Evaporates fast and didn't know what else to use . Didn't have anything else on hand..


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

What should I use?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Water


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

Just buy a HVLP and be done with it.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ToolSeeker said:


> Water


 
just a little cheaper:whistling2:


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

chrisn said:


> just a little cheaper:whistling2:


so can i use a damp cloth(water) or are you guys being sarcastic?..lol


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes all you need is a damp cloth.


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

after more research, it seems my finish is not coming out as good as it should because of the very short working time the paint has. They are saying about 30 seconds! Lay it down and leave it alone. The best finish im getting is with using ONLY the foam rollers, But im trying to figure out how to lay it down without backstroking back over it when using the roller. Should i just start from the middle of the door and go up and raise the roller up and plop it back down in the middle beside wher it started and go up again beside it? They act like once the paint hits the cabinet not to touch it again. Kinda hard with a roller..


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

pitch the stupid foam roller and use a normal one, load it with paint, roll it out and walk away

I would have had your whole house painted by now:laughing:


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

Your expectations aren't matching your tools or skills. Time to call a pro. Or change your expectations.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

^^^^^^totally agree.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

yes indeed^^^^:yes:


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## mopower440 (Dec 30, 2013)

well, i have 2 doors and 4 drawers completed. The drawers turned out quite well and here is why: The drawer fronts are 6 inches wide and SO is my roller, so its quick EASY coverage Just a few swipes and done. The doors arent quite as good as i can see 'sections' where if i had a roller as wide as the door like i did with the drawers, you wouldnt see that..


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