# Paper or mesh on butt joints



## ordonyez (Sep 27, 2011)

I have taped a number of basements and small renovation jobs and mainly used paper tape. I am by no means a full time taper and would appreciate some input.

I am going to be taping my basement where I had to cut all the sheets to get them down the stairs. This has given me a lot of butt joints (walls and ceilings). I have typically always used paper tape but think using mesh tape and durabond for first coat would save me a lot of time and also keep the initial first coat "hump" down a little lower (big deal with the amount of butt joints I have).

Does anyone have any experience with mesh taping butt joints? Any suggestions, tips?


----------



## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

Ordy,
You'll get all different answers on this. Like Ford vs. Chevy. Some guys will tell you the mesh tape isn't worth a damn, but I'm here to tell you I happen to like it. I have taped basements, additions, detached garages, and have not had problems with the tape failing. I use easy sand for the first and second coats followed by USG's dust control premix for the final coat. Also the mesh tape I use is the ultra thin. First job I used it on was my own basement finish twelve years ago. No cracks. My shop ceiling which has a second floor above that's loaded up pretty good with storage stuff, no cracks. On the butt joints be careful when you sand not to get into the tape. 
Mike Hawkins


----------



## jponto07 (Jul 6, 2012)

You should look into Fibafuse. It is a fiberglass mat that lays flatter than paper and isn't subject to the humps that you can get when you don't have enough mud under paper tape. 

There are obviously many options out there, but my preference is to tape all flat joints with Fibafuse.


----------



## iminaquagmire (Jul 10, 2010)

I'll second the fibafuse. Wear some nitrile or rubber gloves if you're sensitive to fiberglass.


----------



## Jb1234 (Aug 18, 2012)

At use Trim-Tex Buttboards on the butts.


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Any tape is better than mesh. You could get lucky and not crack but it's a crap shoot. Mesh tape has no strength lengthwise. If there is EVER any movement it will crack. I used to work for guy and we did a lot of drywall. He decided mesh would be easier so we tried it. The number of callbacks to fix cracks more than doubled. Didn't take long to go back to paper. Plus you can't use mesh on angles and get good sharp corners so now you need 2 tapes.
Very good advice above. butt boards eliminate butt joints, and fibafuse is great.


----------



## Jb1234 (Aug 18, 2012)

I keep hearing and reading great things about Fibafuse. I'll definitely be using that when I re-drywall my garage. My garage is actually a good example of paper vs mesh. It's an attached garage and the walls that are attached to the house were done by the builder when it was built. 5/8 with paper tape. Considering it's 30 years old, it's beat up but overall good. The one exterior wall was then done by the homeowner before me and did it a few years before I bought. He used mesh tape, butted the boards wrong, etc. It is one disgusting cracked crappy looking mess. Now I know the mesh isn't just to blame, it was overall a poor install. But the difference between a proper job and a rushed one is obvious.


----------



## gmaint (Feb 21, 2014)

_I will reach for paper every time._


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

To prove a point simply cut a length of mesh tape, hold the tape at opposing corners, like top left bottom right and pull in opposite directions. It can be used with hot mud because then the strength is in the mud.


----------



## ordonyez (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks for the help. I still have not made up my mind and am starting taping tomorrow. 

I dont understand why people have such a hate for mesh if it does work good (installers using premixed instead of setting compounds?) I purchased FibaTape as I could not find FibaFuse.


----------



## princelake (Feb 19, 2012)

only paper for this guy. prefill with easy sand, put tape on with green lid mud then do final coat with preferred finish mud. 
i've yet to see fibafuse here in the north and would like to try it out


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

ordonyez said:


> Thanks for the help. I still have not made up my mind and am starting taping tomorrow.
> 
> I dont understand why people have such a hate for mesh if it does work good (installers using premixed instead of setting compounds?) I purchased FibaTape as I could not find FibaFuse.


I think if you reread the above posts installers are telling you they do NOT use it. What I said was with the setting compounds is the only place you can use it.


----------



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I use paper--I've seen to many failures with mesh---

Some swear by mesh---However I am not one of those---

Prince lake has the proper muds and the order of use listed----


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Mesh tape can be used with Durabond, but I'd prefer using paper tape over mesh every time.

I just looked up Myron Ferguson using Fibafuse on YouTube, and I'm sold. This looks more or less as good as paper, and easier to use. With a product like Fibafuse, I never see any reason to use mesh tape, ever.


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ordonyez said:


> Thanks for the help. I still have not made up my mind and am starting taping tomorrow.
> 
> I dont understand why people have such a hate for mesh if it does work good (installers using premixed instead of setting compounds?) I purchased FibaTape as I could not find FibaFuse.


FibaTape and FibaFuse are completely different products.

People hate mesh because it often does _not_ work good.

There is a difference between Durabond and Easy Sand setting compound. However it's basically a necessity to use a setting compound with mesh tape (Durabond is stronger than Easy Sand). You might get lucky and have mesh work with premixed, but you're taking a real chance. So the typical homeowner who is using mesh tape for convenience is obviously not going to be mixing their own setting compound. Therefore, mesh tape almost always gets used with premixed compound, the exact compound it should not be used with.

Just looking at the design of FibaFuse, I can practically endorse it without ever having used it, but I will definitely be using it soon. It combines the best features of both products, with the only main downside being it's easily cut in corners, but then I have no problem using a corner knife, unlike most pros


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> I think if you reread the above posts installers are telling you they do NOT use it. What I said was with the setting compounds is the only place you can use it.


I was confused by his question too, but what I think he meant was this: "I don't understand why people have such a hate for mesh if it does work good. Is it because failures occur when it's installed with premixed compound instead of setting compound?"


----------



## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a FYI out of all the years I have done sheet rock and stuff I have yet to see some one on a job site use mesh it is junk. that said Fibra fuse is good tape if your just doing flat not so well on the inside corners. so I will stick to paper tape because I don't have to switch every time. Just so you know why I do not like mesh tape. It is strong in only one direction take a piece of mesh tap about say 4" long hold it in one corner then the diagonal opposing corner and pull. do that with paper tape and see what happens. the tape that becomes a diamond shape is weak and will have problems. even with a setting compound which BTW you have to mix from powder and it has a time limit on it and so that can bring in a whole other problems for people who are not use to doing drywall all the time.


----------



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Less experienced; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5u3XzM8e_b_ypSQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cGU&cad=rja

Smarter: http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG/...laster-joint-reinforcement-systems-en-PM5.pdf

Your choice, lol.

Gary


----------



## ordonyez (Sep 27, 2011)

I like the look of that Fibafuse tape and plan on trying it. It does not seem to be readily available where I am (Toronto Canada)


----------



## Davejss (May 14, 2012)

We use paper tape for joint compound and mesh tape for plaster.


----------



## Jb1234 (Aug 18, 2012)

I bought Fibafuse on a good deal from the Home Depot website. I checked the HD Canada site and it doesn't look like they carry it :/


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> FibaTape and FibaFuse are completely different products.


 What's the difference between FibaTape and FibaFuse?

They're made by the same company. Is the difference in the weave pattern? ---> FibaTape having a large weave pattern and FibaFuse having a very small weave pattern?


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

Twister said:


> What's the difference between FibaTape and FibaFuse?
> 
> They're made by the same company. Is the difference in the weave pattern? ---> FibaTape having a large weave pattern and FibaFuse having a very small weave pattern?


 Disregard. Answered my own question. For anyone who is curious, *FibaTape* uses either a square grid pattern of weaving, or a stronger version of FibaTape has the square grid pattern AND a diagonal/diamond shaped weave too, in order to give it greater strength. *FibaFusion* is a true cloth-like fiberglass tape that has no repeatable weave pattern.

Would REALLY like to know how standard paper tape compares to FibaFusion in overall joint strength.


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

They claim it's stronger, which is plausible.
https://www.certainteed.com/resources/CTG_FibaFuse_SellSheet.pdf

This is a little more objective of a source.
http://wallboardtools.com.au/fibafuse-joint-tape-strong-fast-flat/


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> They claim it's stronger, which is plausible.
> https://www.certainteed.com/resources/CTG_FibaFuse_SellSheet.pdf
> 
> This is a little more objective of a source.
> http://wallboardtools.com.au/fibafuse-joint-tape-strong-fast-flat/


Good to know! Thanks.

I will say that in my research, I've come across a drywall guy named Myron Ferguson, who is often thought of as the guru of all things relating to drywall. In a book he wrote on drywalling several years ago he says he "often" used self-adhesive mesh tape on tapered seams but always used standard paper tape on butted seams. 

However....I found a YouTube video last night where he says he is now comfortable with FibaFusion to use it on butt joints. His endorsement was good enough for me. Here's the clip:






In my opinion, I bet in the coming years standard paper tape will be used less and less as companies develop their own kind of 'FibaFuse'. Technology marches on, and that's fine with me. I want the best stuff you can get. :thumbsup:


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

What I read of Myron, I thought he said he used setting compound with mesh tape - at least that's what I remember from his book. I do also remember him touting FibaFuse. I think it's just great stuff. If people would get over their issues with using corner trowels, then it would obsolete paper because there wouldn't be the issue of it tearing when taping a corner.


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Ordonyez:

I don't care if you use paper, fiberglas mesh or fiba fuse. If you're looking for a good way to do butt joints with any and all of these tapes, then read my posts about using a curved trowel in the thread entitled:

"Question about Inside and Outside corners in Drywall repair work"

about 15 posts below yours in this Drywall & Plaster forum.


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Ordonyez:
> 
> I don't care if you use paper, fiberglas mesh or fiba fuse. If you're looking for a good way to do butt joints with any and all of these tapes, then read my posts about using a curved trowel in the thread entitled:
> 
> ...


 Yep, gotta admit, Myron talks constantly about using a 14" curved hand trowel. Up until I started learning about Myron I didn't know/never heard of a drywaller using a mason-type trowel. I thought everyone used just straight taping knives. Obviously not so. I'm debating about a curved trowel myself.


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

A curved trowel isn't a masonary tool. It's a drywaller's tool. You buy them in the places that sell drywall and plastering supplies. You won't find them in the places that sell brick and masonry supplies.

Who is "Myron"?


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Myron Ferguson's name was already mentioned in post #25, easy to Google.


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> A curved trowel isn't a masonary tool. It's a drywaller's tool. You buy them in the places that sell drywall and plastering supplies. You won't find them in the places that sell brick and masonry supplies.
> 
> Who is "Myron"?


 Bought a stainless steel, 14" curved trowel yesterday on Amazon. Big box store in my town didn't have any. Anxious to try it out. I've got a lot to learn....


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Twister said:


> Bought a stainless steel, 14" curved trowel yesterday


Don't press too hard with it or you'll defeat the purpose


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Twister said:


> Bought a stainless steel, 14" curved trowel yesterday on Amazon. Big box store in my town didn't have any. Anxious to try it out. I've got a lot to learn....


You'll find that curved trowels eat a LOT of joint compound, but they make butt joints a breeze.


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> Don't press too hard with it or you'll defeat the purpose


Hey, that's good info to know. Thx!

What I don't yet understand is the trowel is only 14" wide and most guys seem to recommend a butt joint mound of mud wider than 14". For example, Myron Ferguson says he goes about 20". 

So how do you spread anything wider than the trowel's 14" without having to raise one of the edges (top or bottom) of the trowel off of the wall? If you leave both of the trowel's edges ON the surface of the wall as you pull it you're limited to only a 14" wide spread. And if you raise one end like I said, how does the edge still in contact with the wall not dig into the wall and gouge it?

Like I said, I've got a lot to learn....


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

For joints wider than your knife, you have to do it in 2 passes. For a 20" pass, you're going to do the top 11" or so in the first pass, overlapping the centerline by an inch or so. On the second pass, you do the bottom 11", once again overlapping the centerline by about an inch on the top.


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Let us know how the curved trowel works for you. I never got mine to work I know some people like them. I got mine when I decided to change from knives to trowels. I really tried to get it to work but never quite managed it. Seems like a hump was what I was trying to avoid, not make one. I changed to flat trowels and stayed with them so am just curious how it works for you.


----------



## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Couple quick notes about humps and curves: on butt joints, you can't avoid a hump, you're just trying to manage one. The only way to avoid a hump is to use back blocking, which of course isn't possible in the standard situation of a butt joint on a stud. So for some people, it can be easier to mud the joint with a cruved trowel than a flat one. But even for tapered seams or back blocked seams, keep in mind that joint compound tends to shrink somewhat, so leaving a little extra to shrink down can result in a flat joint. Also, using a flat and somewhat flexible knife can leave a concave joint even on a tapered seam because the pressure causes the knife to bend inward slightly. If you press on a curved trowel a little, it becomes flat. If you press on a flat knife a little, it becomes concave (technically convex, but making a concave impression in the mud). So a lot of it is about feel and what works best for you.


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

ToolSeeker said:


> Let us know how the curved trowel works for you. I never got mine to work I know some people like them. I got mine when I decided to change from knives to trowels. I really tried to get it to work but never quite managed it. Seems like a hump was what I was trying to avoid, not make one. I changed to flat trowels and stayed with them so am just curious how it works for you.


 ToolSeeker - 

Ha! Ha! At the rate I'm learning, I think you'll be a mighty old man before I can tell you the curved trowel worked for me. I mean, if it looks bad later this week, it definitely isn't gonna be the trowel... 

Thx for the vote of confidence, though!


----------



## Twister (Jul 5, 2009)

jeffnc said:


> Couple quick notes about humps and curves: on butt joints, you can't avoid a hump, you're just trying to manage one. The only way to avoid a hump is to use back blocking, which of course isn't possible in the standard situation of a butt joint on a stud. So for some people, it can be easier to mud the joint with a cruved trowel than a flat one. But even for tapered seams or back blocked seams, keep in mind that joint compound tends to shrink somewhat, so leaving a little extra to shrink down can result in a flat joint. Also, using a flat and somewhat flexible knife can leave a concave joint even on a tapered seam because the pressure causes the knife to bend inward slightly. If you press on a curved trowel a little, it becomes flat. If you press on a flat knife a little, it becomes concave (technically convex, but making a concave impression in the mud). So a lot of it is about feel and what works best for you.


 Jeff - 

I understand everything you're saying. Just a disconnect between the knowledge and my hands. Very frustrating. I'm kind of a perfectionist who has an easy time paying attention to details but getting a reasonably smooth finish is killing me. I'd post pictures of my current skill level with mudding but it's too freaking embarrassing. I have learned, though, I definitely hate sanding!


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Using trowels eliminated a LOT of sanding for me over knives. Before you apply the next coat lay your knife almost flat against the wall this will scrap off the ridges left from preceding coat, and your next coat will fill the low spots. Remember the only coat that needs to be "perfectly" flat is the last one.


----------

