# asbestos



## nap

Donnie L. said:


> I'm noticing a lack of concern about asbestos on here. Is it because asbestos-related illness is mainly an invention of ambulance chasers trying to business for themselves or is out of ignorance?


well, that's a tough question. Asbestos has been the gravy train for quite a few law firms across the country. I suspect the claimed problems have been blown way out of proportion to the actual danger. 

Bottom line: can asbestos cause health problems? Sure. Has it been proven to cause problems from a constant work related situation? Sure. Has it been proven to cause problems in the residents of a home that a worker that works with asbestos regularly? Yes. Has it been proven to be a problem due to a casual exposure such as removing the popcorn from one house's ceiling? that's the big question and I have yet to see any dependable evidence that is has. 

I work in the construction industry and know hundreds of men that have worked around asbestos for decades. I do not know of a single reported case of mesothelioma ever in our local.

a very quick look showed an annual incidence rate of about 2300 cases and declining. That is an extremely low amount of diagnosis compared to all the hoopla surrounding asbestos.


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## Donnie L.

I once had a former abatement worker tell me that his company made a fortune from removing vinyl-asbestos tiles but that it was probably totally unnecessary. I guess these companies monitor the asbestos content in the air throughout such procedures, and he said that never once did it reach a level beyond what would be considered acceptable--even when tiles were being damaged. 

Another guy went so far as to say that the only risk that has ever existed in the general population (ie, residential) is "paraoccupational" -- like, the spouses and children of workers who handle the raw material (100% asbestos). 

I guess I freak out about it from time to time because I've been exposed to the stuff periodically throughout my DIY "career." Tiles, ceilings, shingles, ... everything has asbestos in it. I know I've been exposed without even knowing it before.


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## nap

Donnie L. said:


> I guess I freak out about it from time to time because I've been exposed to the stuff periodically throughout my DIY "career." Tiles, ceilings, shingles, ... everything has asbestos in it. I know I've been exposed without even knowing it before.


I used to work in a factory that made brake shoes. We actually put the shoes on a machine that ground a radius on them. Since being in construction, I don't know how many times I have been on a job and somebody would let us know that the pipe insulation contained asbestos.


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## rusty baker

I have installed floor covering since 1973. I took up thousand of asbestos tiles and scraped up many gallons of asbestos containing adhesive. My lungs are fine and I've never met an installer who had problems because of asbestos. Now the EPA is hot about paint with lead. I think it will be just as overblown as the asbestos scare.


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## nap

rusty baker said:


> I think it will be just as overblown as the asbestos scare.



a neighbors friend, who is a painter, was telling me about the rules, GEEMINEE CHRISTMAS are they ridiculous. While I understand and appreciate the reasoning, they are simply way beyond what makes reasonable sense.


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## rusty baker

Did you expect the government to be reasonable about anything?


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## Scuba_Dave

I think it may have the reverse effect wanted
Forcing/convincing many HO to DIY due to the added cost

I worked in an Industrial shop when I was younger
Heat treating metal - furnaces running up to 2000f, liquid salt baths w/arsenic, oil quenches......nice fumes


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## nap

Scuba_Dave said:


> I think it may have the reverse effect wanted
> Forcing/convincing many HO to DIY due to the added cost
> 
> I worked in an Industrial shop when I was younger
> Heat treating metal - furnaces running up to 2000f, liquid salt baths w/arsenic, oil quenches......nice fumes


been in a few. never had the luck of working in one.:no:


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## Scuba_Dave

I lucked out...ended up working in the air conditioned lab :thumbsup:


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## Clankpot

Donnie L. said:


> Is it because asbestos-related illness is mainly an invention of ambulance chasers trying to business for themselves or is out of ignorance?


To answer your actual question, I don't think a dismissive attitude toward asbestos is due to the hysteria created by ambulance chasers or ignorance. In my opinion, I think it's due to - a) the latency period of asbestos-related illness and b) arrogance.

Typically it takes decades for asbestos-related lung illnesses to show themselves. So, the carefree demolition/construction/remodeling workers of today, may turn out to be the very ill folks of tomorrow ... thanks to asbestos. To base your personal opinion of the dangers of asbestos on personal anecdotes ("no one I know ever got sick from it") is a dangerous game. To not care at all is arrogant.


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## nap

Clankpot said:


> To answer your actual question, I don't think a dismissive attitude toward asbestos is due to the hysteria created by ambulance chasers or ignorance. In my opinion, I think it's due to - a) the latency period of asbestos-related illness and b) arrogance.
> 
> Typically it takes decades for asbestos-related lung illnesses to show themselves. So, the carefree demolition/construction/remodeling workers of today, may turn out to be the very ill folks of tomorrow ... thanks to asbestos. To base your personal opinion of the dangers of asbestos on personal anecdotes ("no one I know ever got sick from it") is a dangerous game. To not care at all is arrogant.


nobody said people don't care but you are making a statement without proof to back it up. If you can show a correlation of a casual exposure of asbestos to an illness, bring it on. I don't think anybody has ever done so yet.

and if those carefree demolition/construction/remodeling workers of today are at risk, surely those same types of workers of the last 5 decades would not only have been at risk but would provide quantifiable proof of your claim. Got any statistics to show a correlation between such workers and asbestos related illnesses? The possibility of exposure to asbestos is much less than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago so if the workers of 20, 30 ,40 years ago are not showing a relationship, the workers of today are most likely not going to. 

so, rather than standing on the building top and proclaiming death lurks behind every wall, provide proof of your claim.

so, you want to disregard my anecdotal evidence, then it's time for you to present solid evidence of your claim. Not only is your claim not supported by facts, it isn't even supported by anecdotal evidence.


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## Clankpot

nap said:


> and if those carefree demolition/construction/remodeling workers of today are at risk, surely those same types of workers of the last 5 decades would not only have been at risk but would provide quantifiable proof of your claim


Touche. I feel like you're making a good point here, but I'm not clear on something. Are you equating demolition/construction/remodeling work with casual exposure? I'm pretty sure that the demolition/construction/remodeling trades are pretty well-represented in current asbestos-related illness statistics.

Heck, this guy owned a "boutique" and managed bands and developed it.

(EDIT: "it" meaning mesothelioma)


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## nap

I would have to know a lot more about the guy before accepting the cause of his disease to such a presumed casual exposure. I suspect either there was an unknown or unmentioned exposure or asbestos isn't the only cause of mesothelioma. 




> Are you equating demolition/construction/remodeling work with casual exposure? I'm pretty sure that the demolition/construction/remodeling trades are pretty well-represented in current asbestos-related illness statistics.


I'm an electrician. Pretty sure can get me killed. 

Either they are in the stats or they aren't AND they would have to be listed in such a way it was evident that they were or weren't involved with some specific task that increased their exposure over other similarly classified workers. There are many ways to present "evidence" and you can often support both sides of an argument with the exact same data by how you package it.

demo/construction/remodeling can be in a casual exposure situation or if you are working on something like ships, not so much so.


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## Clankpot

nap said:


> I would have to know a lot more about the guy before accepting the cause of his disease to such a presumed casual exposure. I suspect either there was an unknown or unmentioned exposure or asbestos isn't the only cause of mesothelioma.


So, you're saying it's not the known exposure to asbestos that caused Malcolm McLaren's mesothelioma? There must have been "unknown or unmentioned exposure" or some other, undetermined cause? 

The first part is extremely speculative (and bordering on conspiracy theory-ish) and the second part is contrary to common medical knowledge. Asbestos is the only known cause of mesothelioma. Smoking can only exacerbate it. 

Look, if asbestos wasn't extremely dangerous it wouldn't have become so extremely regulated and the government wouldn't be trying to ban it all together yet again.


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## nap

> Clankpot;476731]So, you're saying it's not the known exposure to asbestos that caused Malcolm McLaren's mesothelioma? There must have been "unknown or unmentioned exposure" or some other, undetermined cause?


I'm saying I don't know. I didn't see anything in my 29 second perusal of the site to indicate he was ever exposed to asbestos.



> The first part is extremely speculative (and bordering on conspiracy theory-ish) and the second part is contrary to common medical knowledge. Asbestos is the only known cause of mesothelioma. Smoking can only exacerbate it.


start checking out what fiberglass does to a lung. Strangely similar in the injury sustained. 

Oh, and from the link you provided:



> . One of these conditions is malignant mesothelioma, a rare form of cancer *almost exclusively* caused by asbestos exposure.


and:


> An overwhelming body of scientific and medical evidence has proven that the *primary *cause of malignant mesothelioma is exposure to asbestos.


those statements mean they either know of other causes or suspect there are other causes but have not proven them. 



> Look, if asbestos wasn't extremely dangerous it wouldn't have become so extremely regulated and the government wouldn't be trying to ban it all together yet again




and you don't think the gov has never overreacted before. You don't think the gov has taken action based on suspicious scientific findings? If not, it's time to wake up. I'm not saying a person shouldn't take precautions but I truly believe much of the hype is financially driven. 

this is from your site as well:



> Mesothelioma is a highly aggressive cancer that is difficult to both diagnose and treat. Between 2,000 and 3,000 cases of malignant mesothelioma are diagnosed each year in America, and these figures are projected to increase throughout the next decade


In my reading yesterday (an no, I'm not going to go find it) I read exactly the opposite. The site stated mesothelioma cases are dropping and were expected to continue to do so.


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## rusty baker

Clankpot said:


> Look, if asbestos wasn't extremely dangerous it wouldn't have become so extremely regulated and the government wouldn't be trying to ban it all together yet again.


The government overreacts and overregulates many things. Look at marijuana or look at the lead paint issue.


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## Clankpot

Malcolm McLaren owned a sex shop and had a few of the walls demolished to make it look like a bomb went off in the place. Ceiling tiles and drywall particles were released into the air. He never was employed in an industrial setting or worked in any type of construction trade. Casual exposure, no?


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## Clankpot

Since anecdotes are allowed, here's one of my own. 

When I was young my folks had an edition put on our house. The contractor they hired ended up employing a crew of clowns. 

Unfortunately from the get-go, the crew was not concerned at all about potential hazards. This is how they worked: turned the music up loud, got to shaking they azzes and goofing around with each other while they tore the place apart. No rooms were sealed off. No one was wearing masks, and as I think about it now, I'll say that our whole house was contaminated by dust. This project went on all summer.

I betcha can't guess where one of the head clowns is now? Well, he's dead from lung illness.


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## nap

Clankpot said:


> Since anecdotes are allowed, here's one of my own.
> 
> When I was young my folks had an edition put on our house. The contractor they hired ended up employing a crew of clowns.
> 
> Unfortunately from the get-go, the crew was not concerned at all about potential hazards. This is how they worked: turned the music up loud, got to shaking they azzes and goofing around with each other while they tore the place apart. No rooms were sealed off. No one was wearing masks, and as I think about it now, I'll say that our whole house was contaminated by dust. This project went on all summer.
> 
> I betcha can't guess where one of the head clowns is now? Well, he's dead from lung illness.


lung illness or mesothelioma?

do you or any other resident at that house have mesothelioma? Your exposure would have been much greater than the clowns and if nobody in your house has it, it would show that the exposure did not cause the illness.

at least at an anecdotal level.


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## nap

Clankpot said:


> Malcolm McLaren owned a sex shop and had a few of the walls demolished to make it look like a bomb went off in the place. Ceiling tiles and drywall particles were released into the air. He never was employed in an industrial setting or worked in any type of construction trade. Casual exposure, no?


were they asbestos ceiling tiles?

and I have yet to have anybody prove there was ever asbestos used in drywall. The only claim I have heard was from a ambulance chasing lawfirm (and that exact statement was quoted at several other such firms as well) It's like they all got it from the same place.

It has been confirmed asbestos was used in SOME drywall mud. Was it tested in his "boutique"? and the results were?


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## Clankpot

nap said:


> do you or any other resident at that house have mesothelioma? Your exposure would have been much greater than the clowns and if nobody in your house has it, it would show that the exposure did not cause the illness.


No one in our household has mesothelioma or an asbestos disease. So, what's my point? My point is that the demolition/construction/remodeling worker-demographic is vulnerable to asbestos illnesses ... just maybe not to the same extent as someone in manufacturing or the insulation business who handles the raw material. Malcolm Maclaren, Warren Zevon, Steve McQueen, and others are popular, pubic examples. The beboppin' azz-shakin' demolition clown is an anecdotal example.


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## nap

> [Clankpot;476764]No one in our household has mesothelioma or an asbestos disease. So, what's my point? My point is that the demolition/construction/remodeling worker-demographic is vulnerable to asbestos illnesses


.and my point is since nobody in yoru household has presented with such an illness, there might just be more to the story than you are aware of. The fact nobody in your house has it supports my claim that a casual exposure is not adequate to cause the illness.



> . Malcolm Maclaren, Warren Zevon, Steve McQueen, and others are popular, pubic examples. The beboppin' azz-shakin' demolition clown is an anecdotal example.



steve mcqueen:



> Shortly before his death, McQueen had given a medical interview in which he blamed his condition on asbestos exposure.[51] While McQueen felt that asbestos used in movie soundstage insulation and race-drivers' protective suits and helmets could have been involved, he believed his illness was a direct result of *massive exposure while removing asbestos lagging from pipes aboard a troop ship during his time in the Marines*


concerning warren zevon:



> No one is entirely sure how Warren developed mesothelioma. While Warren had been smoking for almost thirty years before quitting in 1996, the cause of mesothelioma is exposure to asbestos. After Warren died, his son Jordan discussed his theory as to how Warren contracted it. Warren’s father owned a carpet store in Arizona, and when Warren was quite young, *he used to play in the attic, which was loaded with asbestos.* It is unclear whether or not his apartment building contained asbestos.


and you have not provided anything supporting evidence of asbestos in MaClaren's ceiling tile.


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## Clankpot

nap said:


> .and my point is since nobody in yoru household has presented with such an illness, there might just be more to the story than you are aware of. The fact nobody in your house has it supports my claim that a casual exposure is not adequate to cause the illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steve mcqueen:
> 
> 
> 
> concerning warren zevon:
> 
> 
> 
> and you have not provided anything supporting evidence of asbestos in MaClaren's ceiling tile.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're unintentionally supporting one of my original claims--that what you consider to be casual exposure to asbestos can be harmful/deadly.

Something that I've been driving at all along--and I'm definitely not accusing you of doing this--is that it's not responsible for people on here to be dismissive of asbestos hazards especially when conversing with less-experienced do-it-yourselfers who are new to this chatroom ... such as myself.

The OP noticed a lack of concern toward asbestos, and I'm arguing that people who know better on here should be more--and I mean this in a good way--alarmist about it.


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## nap

> =Clankpot;476796]I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're unintentionally supporting one of my original claims--that what you consider to be casual exposure to asbestos can be harmful/deadly.


I would not consider removing asbestos from pipes and playing in an asbestos laden attic casual exposure. On Zevon's situation, I presume it took place over a matter of years and if you want to see how much the military really cares about their people, watch the nuclear bomb tests in Nevada where they had open air testing still and put a bunch of soldiers into trenches, popped the bomb and after the initial flash and shock wave had passed, had them get out of the trenches.

Anyway, I suspect either of those 2 people's exposure was far beyond what I, or anybody, would consider casual exposure. Each of them were at a level an actual worker would be exposed to.





> The OP noticed a lack of concern toward asbestos, and I'm arguing that people who know better on here should be more--and I mean this in a good way--alarmist about it.


if you would provide honest to goodness support that a guy removing his popcorn ceiling truly should treat it as it is going to kill him, then I am sure those doubters would be glad to read it.


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## Clankpot

nap said:


> and you have not provided anything supporting evidence of asbestos in MaClaren's ceiling tile.


OK, good point. Let me ask you a final question. (And I am asking out of ignorance.) Do you consider matrix-bound asbestos products (such as floor / ceiling tiles) to be low-risk? It seems that that's what your getting at by coming back to the ceiling tile issue.


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## nap

Clankpot said:


> OK, good point. Let me ask you a final question. (And I am asking out of ignorance.) Do you consider matrix-bound asbestos products (such as floor / ceiling tiles) to be low-risk? It seems that that's what your getting at by coming back to the ceiling tile issue.


low_er_ risk.

yes I do and it is generally accepted as such. It requires actual destruction of the material to cause friable asbestos. I wouldn't take a rotozip to a ceiling tile that contained asbestos but if one broke while I was working on it, I wouldn't run to the mortician and set up services either. I suspect I have been exposed to asbestos much more than the average person through my construction work, my time at a brake shoe factory, and actually working on brakes (as a pro). If I should end up with it, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. If I do, I'll be sure to come back her and let everybody know.


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## Red Squirrel

I think asbestos is overreacted upon. Lot of "asbestos removal companies" will make it sound like just having it in your house can kill you, and charge big bucks to get it removed "professionally". 

I don't see removing asbestos yourself being any worse then reinsulating an attic, or doing heavy drywall sanding, all of which will produce dust that is not really good for you. Sure, asbestoes might be worse, but either way, you should be wearing proper protection to deal with the situation you are working in. Safety first.


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## Scuba_Dave

More people die from tobacco products every year.....440,000 people in the US alone :furious:
Thats 50 people *PER HOUR*
I don't see the Govt making that illegal



> Of every 5 deaths in the USA, 1 is caused from smoking.


Thats just disgusting


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## Red Squirrel

Yep they keep it going because they make money out of it. It's pretty sad really.


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## CramerH

Ronal Reagan said the scariest words in the English language are " I'm from the government and I'm here to help".


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## Clankpot

There were some good points made on here by all--even those I don't agree with. 

I'm not sure if _I_ agree with the idea that the government overreacts to potential consumer dangers. As to the regulation of marijuana, it's hard to say that it's overregulated right now. While we know that there's been few significant issues in countries that have decriminalized it, we don't know what legalization/decriminalization would be like in _our _society.


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## racebum

big long debate that didn't really cover what actually happens in the short term. breathing this crap will make you cough, will reduce your performance if you run - workout and is easy as hell to avoid. a nice 3m half mask with p100 filters costs about $20 and saves any debate on how bad it is, the long term isn't really the only concern, it's feeling like hell in the short term. even being around non asbestos drywall finishing and blown insulation i mask up for, i just can't handle breathing that stuff. slows me down on the treadmill and i feel like hell after an hour or two of being in a really dusty environment. in short, just buy a mask and be done with it


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## eisert

I used to be a liscenced lead abatement worker, but not for asbestos. When I took my lead class, we did talk a little about asbestos, mainly out of curiosity from the class, and did have some liscenced abestos techs in there as well. Here's the deal with both-

When you do your own lead and asbestos abatements (removal), you can potentially release contaminants into the air. We can obviously all agree on this. A large part of the concern about these contaminants are not only for what you are exposing yourself to, but what you are exposing younger occupants of the home to. These contaminants when ingested (eaten, inhaled, whatever) can cause serious detriment to small kids. If you have an infant in the home, would you want them breathing in asbestos fibers that you made airborne? How about them eating some lead paint chips? This stuff is dangerous enough for adults to be around, much less kids.

Now, I'm sure what I'm going to hear next is, "But I put up plastic and wore a mask....". Good effort, but not enough. A $3 white mask from the home center won't protect you from much- mild irritants only. Anything severe (like lead and asbestos) needs a respirator designed to trap the material being removed, and has to fit properly. Rarely can you just by a respirator, put it on, and have it work right. It needs to be fitted.

And what about the doorways to the room to where you are removing the material? Were they sealed properly? How about the ductwork? If those weren't sealed properly, you just contaminated your whole house. How about clean-up? Wrong filter on your vacuum and you just did the same thing. Now you have lead or asbestos all over your house. And every time you vacuum, you make the material airborn again.

I could go on and on, but this post is long enough. In short, this is the best solution possible for both materials-

Unless the material containing asbestos or lead HAS to be removed (major renovation or material is deteriorated too far), seal it up, label it as containing lead or asbestos, and then cover it. 9 times out of 10, removal is not necessary.


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## WillK

rusty baker said:


> I have installed floor covering since 1973. I took up thousand of asbestos tiles and scraped up many gallons of asbestos containing adhesive. My lungs are fine and I've never met an installer who had problems because of asbestos. Now the EPA is hot about paint with lead. I think it will be just as overblown as the asbestos scare.


Let me say something about the lead rules. Going into the house I'm working on now, I was told by my inspector that my city would require that I have the certified renovator certificate before I could pull a permit. Turned out not to be true, but I took the class anyway before I started work.

Being a homeowner working on my own home, the whole EPA certified renovator routine is recommended but not required for me. So I cut one corner, instead of spending $700 for a HEPA vacuum, I just did what I could with my shop vac, I put in a HEPA filter and added a HEPA bag figuring close enough... That hasn't been that big of a deal, I actually used the vacuum very little in my demolition of the second floor interior walls which I know are lath & plaster with lead paint circa 1917 that is in very bad shape.

But that's not the problem... I also used the cartridge mask, but I'll tell you - that mask really makes breathing harder to do. So I decided that once I had everything pulled down in the first room I was working on, I'd just take the mask off for the cleanup so I wouldn't have to take a break.

By the time I was done, my head was fuzzy and my balance was noticeably deteriorated. I knew I was feeling the effects of lead exposure, and I decided that whatever it cost me to buy more cartridges, more protective coverings for myself, etc. I was sticking to the plan. I took a very cold shower (gas was shut off at the house=no hot water) before leaving the house so I could be sure I wasn't bringing any lead dust home to my kids, then I took another after I got to the other house.

But I had a good excuse for having more steak! (Increasing iron intake can counter the effects of lead poisoning)


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## Windows

WillK said:


> Let me say something about the lead rules. Going into the house I'm working on now, I was told by my inspector that my city would require that I have the certified renovator certificate before I could pull a permit. Turned out not to be true, but I took the class anyway before I started work.
> 
> Being a homeowner working on my own home, the whole EPA certified renovator routine is recommended but not required for me. So I cut one corner, instead of spending $700 for a HEPA vacuum, I just did what I could with my shop vac, I put in a HEPA filter and added a HEPA bag figuring close enough... That hasn't been that big of a deal, I actually used the vacuum very little in my demolition of the second floor interior walls which I know are lath & plaster with lead paint circa 1917 that is in very bad shape.
> 
> But that's not the problem... I also used the cartridge mask, but I'll tell you - that mask really makes breathing harder to do. So I decided that once I had everything pulled down in the first room I was working on, I'd just take the mask off for the cleanup so I wouldn't have to take a break.
> 
> By the time I was done, my head was fuzzy and my balance was noticeably deteriorated. I knew I was feeling the effects of lead exposure, and I decided that whatever it cost me to buy more cartridges, more protective coverings for myself, etc. I was sticking to the plan. I took a very cold shower (gas was shut off at the house=no hot water) before leaving the house so I could be sure I wasn't bringing any lead dust home to my kids, then I took another after I got to the other house.
> 
> But I had a good excuse for having more steak! (Increasing iron intake can counter the effects of lead poisoning)


Neither of those symptoms sound like lead poisoning.


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## WillK

The fuzziness may have been imprecisely described, maybe a better descriptor would be that I felt buzzed... I don't really drink that often, but when I've drank enough the feeling was similar. The way lead poisoning works is that at elevated levels, lead inhibits iron as a carrier for oxygen, so effectively you're starving your body and in particular your brain for oxygen.

http://children.webmd.com/tc/lead-poisoning-topic-overview?page=2


> In adults, behavioral symptoms can include irritability, mood and personality changes, changes in sleep patterns, difficulty concentrating, and memory loss.
> At high levels, lead can affect the central nervous system, leading to poor coordination, weakness in hands and feet, headaches, and in severe cases, convulsions, paralysis, and coma.


I also had difficulty concentrating and short term memory problems, but I guess I forgot to mention that.


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## ianc435

Clankpot said:


> So, you're saying it's not the known exposure to asbestos that caused Malcolm McLaren's mesothelioma? There must have been "unknown or unmentioned exposure" or some other, undetermined cause?
> 
> The first part is extremely speculative (and bordering on conspiracy theory-ish) and the second part is contrary to common medical knowledge. Asbestos is the only known cause of mesothelioma. Smoking can only exacerbate it.
> 
> Look, if asbestos wasn't extremely dangerous it wouldn't have become so extremely regulated and the government wouldn't be trying to ban it all together yet again.


Asbestos is only dangerous in a friable state, thus airborne. Don't grind it. Lino tile are not friable until you grind or sand. You can break them all day and scrape cut back glue all day and not have any asbestos in the air. Insulation on pipes is a different story thats nasty stuff. Also let me add this , don't eat the stuff.


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## eisert

Windows said:


> Neither of those symptoms sound like lead poisoning.


Think again- symptoms of lead poisoning are (but not limited to)- loss of balance, loss of short term memory, fatigue, moodiness, loss of appetite, lethargy, poor coordination, headaches, the list goes on and on. 

Most people that experience the onset of overexposure to lead think they have a cold or flu. Thats what makes this stuff so dangerous. By the time you figure out whats going on, you have serious medical issues.

Be smart- save money on DIY projects that really are DIY projects. Abatements ARE NOT DIY PROJECTS!


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## ianc435

eisert said:


> Think again- symptoms of lead poisoning are (but not limited to)- loss of balance, loss of short term memory, fatigue, moodiness, loss of appetite, lethargy, poor coordination, headaches, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Most people that experience the onset of overexposure to lead think they have a cold or flu. Thats what makes this stuff so dangerous. By the time you figure out whats going on, you have serious medical issues.
> 
> Be smart- save money on DIY projects that really are DIY projects. Abatements ARE NOT DIY PROJECTS!


Again fiable asbestos is dangerous not lino tile. They are not friable according to the us goverment/. epa

The pipe insulation stuff is nasty and should be handled by the pros.


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## Windows

eisert said:


> Think again- symptoms of lead poisoning are (but not limited to)- loss of balance, loss of short term memory, fatigue, moodiness, loss of appetite, lethargy, poor coordination, headaches, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Most people that experience the onset of overexposure to lead think they have a cold or flu. Thats what makes this stuff so dangerous. By the time you figure out whats going on, you have serious medical issues.
> 
> Be smart- save money on DIY projects that really are DIY projects. Abatements ARE NOT DIY PROJECTS!


A lot of conditions have symptoms of fuzziness and loss of balance. He was doing a home project, maybe he had a couple of beers; maybe the room was very hot; maybe he overworked himself; maybe another environmental pollutant was present. Lead is a chronic condition often with _no symptoms_ until lead levels are very high. The guy had just taken a class in lead abatement and was focused on the danger of lead poisoning. Of course, ANYTHING he experienced would have been attributed to lead. There isn't even any mention of lead being positively identified in the room or in the house.


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## ianc435

Windows said:


> A lot of conditions have symptoms of fuzziness and loss of balance. He was doing a home project, maybe he had a couple of beers; maybe the room was very hot; maybe he overworked himself; maybe another environmental pollutant was present. Lead is a chronic condition often with no symptoms until lead levels are very high. The guy had just taken a class in lead abatement and was focused on the danger of lead poisoning. Of course, ANYTHING he experienced would have been attributed to lead. There isn't even any mention of lead being positively identified in the room or in the house.


Well he is not a doctor is he?. Leave the doctoring to the doctors. He is probaly a contractor that just took the lead coarse required by goverments. Another fear industry cread by industry to support industry. Paint companies should be paying for these cleanups just like the asbestos companies. Talking about elsert


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## eisert

Windows- that is my point. There are a multitude of symptoms that COULD be attributed to lead, but most often aren't because the symptoms are so similar to that of the common cold, flu, a hangover, fighting to late with the old lady, whatever. By the time the true cause of the symptoms is discovered, the damage has been done.


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## eisert

ianc435 said:


> Well he is not a doctor is he?. Leave the doctoring to the doctors. He is probaly a contractor that just took the lead coarse required by goverments. Another fear industry cread by industry to support industry. Paint companies should be paying for these cleanups just like the asbestos companies. Talking about elsert


 
Actually, I first got certified for lead abatements 6 years ago. I no longer do abatements, and have since let that liscence lapse.


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## ianc435

eisert said:


> Actually, I first got certified for lead abatements 6 years ago. I no longer do abatements, and have since let that liscence lapse.


An entire house abatement is one thing , yeah not a diy, but pulling off trimm on a window is anothers thing. But according to the new laws need you need to take lead precautions for a simple job. Sometimes goverment goes a little to far. Are abatements exspensive?


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## eisert

Abatements are EXTREMELY expensive, due to the incredibly overwhelming safety precautions needed to be taken. But there are many government programs available to help defer some of the cost.

But pulling off some trim to replace with new stuff is not necessarily considered an abatement. If it is a large amount, then yes it is an abatement and I would recommend talking with a professional about the work.

The main purpose of the new EPA guidelines are for the safety of a homeowner hiring a contractor to perform work on their home. When you hire a contractor to, for example, put in new windows in your house, removing the existing trim, stops, sashes, etc. and he doesn't take the proper precautions to contain any debris and dust during the project, there is a chance he could contaminate your home with lead. That is what the new guidelines are trying to eliminate.

If you are a homeowner and want to perform your own work on lead contaminated surfaces, I would suggest to at least take a lead certification course. To comply with the new EPA guidelines, I had to take another certification class and it only cost $300. I know $300 is still alot of cash, but its cheap insurance against harming yourself, or worse, a family member.


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## eisert

P.S. sorry for turning an asbestos thread into another lead discussion, but I have seen too many people take the subject too lightly in the feild. A contractor I used to work for actually put a kids health in serious jeopardy during an abatement by not following the rules and made me an unwitting accomplice during the job, so I am very passionate about this subject.


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## ianc435

eisert said:


> P.S. sorry for turning an asbestos thread into another lead discussion, but I have seen too many people take the subject too lightly in the feild. A contractor I used to work for actually put a kids health in serious jeopardy during an abatement by not following the rules and made me an unwitting accomplice during the job, so I am very passionate about this subject.


Abatement are so exspenve and it is most likely whay people don't do it as much as they should. That is why abatemwnt should be subsidised by the gov and paint companies. I admire your passion.


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## WillK

Windows said:


> A lot of conditions have symptoms of fuzziness and loss of balance. He was doing a home project, maybe he had a couple of beers; maybe the room was very hot; maybe he overworked himself; maybe another environmental pollutant was present. Lead is a chronic condition often with _no symptoms_ until lead levels are very high. The guy had just taken a class in lead abatement and was focused on the danger of lead poisoning. Of course, ANYTHING he experienced would have been attributed to lead. There isn't even any mention of lead being positively identified in the room or in the house.


I think the last I've had any beer was June, weeks before we had even considered buying this house. Weather was hot and I had kept the windows closed, no AC in the house but I'd have had it off anyway to keep the contamination contained... But symptoms persisted into the next day when I went to work and began lessenning in subsequent days.

On a house built in 1917 where lath & plaster had been covered with fiberboard, the probability of lead paint still being present would be pretty high. Once I had exposed the painted plaster, the test kit turned pink when applied to the paint. It was actually the first place I got a color change.

From the standpoint of being trained in certified renovator, the fact that the house had been built prior to 1978 is all that is necessary to treat it as if it has lead-based paint. From the instruction materials, if I recall, a house built prior to 1950 is 95% likely to contain lead-based paint.

In the class, you learn about various activities and how much dust they put into the air... unprotected, sanding lead based paint without a vacuum attachment would probably noticeably affect you in 30 minutes...

Lead poisoning works by inhibiting the oxygen delivery of your blood, so a high level of exposure would directly affect your blood. Long-term exposure at a lower would affect you differently by building up in your bones or other systems (kidneys or liver or whatever)


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## WillK

ianc435 said:


> Well he is not a doctor is he?. Leave the doctoring to the doctors. He is probaly a contractor that just took the lead coarse required by goverments. Another fear industry cread by industry to support industry. Paint companies should be paying for these cleanups just like the asbestos companies. Talking about elsert


Well, I think that's going a bit far... We'd be talking about fining them for something that was common practice over 60 years ago. The paint companies started reducing lead levels on their own starting 1950 before any regulatory action was taken.

Also... see this is a problem that gets taken too far. Yes it's serious, but the problem is that when it gets taken so far that dealing with it becomes impractical, the solution defeats the purpose. Take for example Detroit - out of concern for lead-based paint, Detroit passed an ordinance requiring lead inspection to be passed on an annual basis for houses being rented. Think about that - Now a landlord has to pay for a service costing thousands every year, and say it's $2000, divided over 12 months that's 170 that needs to get added on every month.. If the house has lead it's not going to magically disappear, and if it doesn't lead isn't going to suddenly appear next year. And do you think the average renter in Detroit can afford another $170 per month?


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## WillK

ianc435 said:


> An entire house abatement is one thing , yeah not a diy, but pulling off trimm on a window is anothers thing. But according to the new laws need you need to take lead precautions for a simple job. Sometimes goverment goes a little to far. Are abatements exspensive?


Like eisert said, taking the certified renovator course is a good idea, but you can certainly find some of the info without the class.

The above statement seems to have some misconceptions that you learn about in the class.

First, removing some trim may not be enough area disturbed to require the procedures you learn in the class. The EPA rules define limits on how much area disturbed and how much length of trim can be disturbed without having to follow the rules about containment, cleanup and so on.

Second, a homeowner working on their own home is not bound by the rules. A homeowner working on a home he's renting out is, as is anyone working on someone else's property.

Third, certified renovator class does not cover abatement. Honestly I don't think I could do the EPA definition of abatement justice but abatement is activity that is intended to eliminate a lead hazard. The key is the intent of the activity. Encapsulating is abatement. Demolishing an entire ceiling and room full of walls because I need to work on the framing and insulation is not abatement.

You have to remember, the laws of nature don't necessarily apply in court. Whether something is abatement, to you and me living in the real world, seems like it should have something to do with whether lead paint goes bye-bye and how much dust you create. But in the regulatory arena of the EPA, what is and isn't abatement has to do with the purpose of the project. My demolition isn't abatement because I need to take out the lath and plaster to add framing, add rafter baffles and remove old insulation - the lead-based paint just happens to be in the way.

And lead-free paint isn't really lead free. There is still lead in paint. It is called lead-free because the EPA defines lead-free as having less than a maximum allowable level of paint... The crazy thing is that this is based on surface area or by weight. So by the surface area definition, enough layers might end up counting as lead-based paint if an abatement professional inspected it.

Abatement is a world more expensive because it involves testing with an x-ray gun that costs $15,000+ and needs regular calibration or requires specific procedures for gathering samples tested in an independent laboratory.

BTW, my certified renovator class which I took in Detroit was $100.


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## rusty baker

I believe if you disturb over 6 sq ft of painted surface you fall under this law, at least that's what the EPA said.


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## ianc435

rusty baker said:


> I believe if you disturb over 6 sq ft of painted surface you fall under this law, at least that's what the EPA said.


Per person


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## WillK

ianc435 said:


> Per person


That is not correct, there is no per-person on the 6 square feet limit. It is 6 square feet per room for interior work and 20 square feet for interior work. (and it doesn't mean if you're working on 2 rooms and have 8 square feet in one room and 2 square feet in the other that you're exempt, in the room where it's 8 square feet the rule applies, I think you'd be exempt in the room with 2 square feet but the work practices in the 8 square feet room would pretty much mean you'd have to seal it off from the 2 square feet room and you probably wouldn't be doing them both simultaneously)

From an FAQ of a web site of a company that does the certified renovator training, here is there answer as to what exemptions to the rule are allowed:
http://www.healthyhomestraining.org/LSWP/EPA_Rule_FAQs.htm


> _Are there exceptions to the requirements?_
> 
> The following exemptions to the rule apply:
> 
> *Abatement:* Activities conducted under abatement rules by certified abatement contractor.
> 
> *Minor Repair or Maintenance Activities*: Activities that will, within a 30-day period, disturb less
> than 6 square feet per room for interior activities; or 20 square feet for exterior activities.Exemption
> does NOT apply to window replacement; demolition; or use of banned practices.
> 
> *No Lead-Based Paint Will be Disturbed*: as determined by:
> o Testing of paint by certified lead inspector or risk assessor; or
> o Proper use of EPA-recognized test kit by certified renovator.
> 
> *Do-It-Yourself*: Work performed by an owner an owner-occupied residence.


There are also further requirements that apply to HUD housing, One that is a little harder to understand is that beyond the 6 square foot area requirement, HUD work requires following lead-safe work practices when you disturb more than 10% of the area of a component with a small surface area. 

This is the part I would not be able to precisely explain because I don't have HUD housing, I only plan to work on my own house so it didn't apply to me, but it was discussed in the class I took and I paid some attention because it could have been on the test at the end. 

An example would be if you were in a room with chair rail molding, let's say for simplicity it has 10 feet of chair rail molding. If you disturb more than 1 foot of that, the lead-safe work rules apply. If you have 10 feet of chair rail and 10 feet of base molding you could disturb 1 foot of chair rail and 1 foot of base molding and not have the rule apply because they are seperate components, but not more than 1 foot of either. And I think that if the 10 feet of chair rail molding was in 2 pieces, it still counts as 1 component... 

Really, though, is there that much you can do where you're disturbing any piece of molding where it's going to be in that gray area? Either you're just cutting out a small piece to add an outlet and it's well under 10% or you're going to be doing something to the whole piece and it's well over 10%.


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## ianc435

WillK said:


> That is not correct, there is no per-person on the 6 square feet limit. It is 6 square feet per room for interior work and 20 square feet for interior work. (and it doesn't mean if you're working on 2 rooms and have 8 square feet in one room and 2 square feet in the other that you're exempt, in the room where it's 8 square feet the rule applies, I think you'd be exempt in the room with 2 square feet but the work practices in the 8 square feet room would pretty much mean you'd have to seal it off from the 2 square feet room and you probably wouldn't be doing them both simultaneously)
> 
> From an FAQ of a web site of a company that does the certified renovator training, here is there answer as to what exemptions to the rule are allowed:
> http://www.healthyhomestraining.org/LSWP/EPA_Rule_FAQs.htm
> 
> There are also further requirements that apply to HUD housing, One that is a little harder to understand is that beyond the 6 square foot area requirement, HUD work requires following lead-safe work practices when you disturb more than 10% of the area of a component with a small surface area.
> 
> This is the part I would not be able to precisely explain because I don't have HUD housing, I only plan to work on my own house so it didn't apply to me, but it was discussed in the class I took and I paid some attention because it could have been on the test at the end.
> 
> An example would be if you were in a room with chair rail molding, let's say for simplicity it has 10 feet of chair rail molding. If you disturb more than 1 foot of that, the lead-safe work rules apply. If you have 10 feet of chair rail and 10 feet of base molding you could disturb 1 foot of chair rail and 1 foot of base molding and not have the rule apply because they are seperate components, but not more than 1 foot of either. And I think that if the 10 feet of chair rail molding was in 2 pieces, it still counts as 1 component...
> 
> Really, though, is there that much you can do where you're disturbing any piece of molding where it's going to be in that gray area? Either you're just cutting out a small piece to add an outlet and it's well under 10% or you're going to be doing something to the whole piece and it's well over 10%.


Thanks for factual correction, one quick question is that per day per hour? 

Never mind saw the 30 day time limit


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## bubbler

Donnie L. said:


> I'm noticing a lack of concern about asbestos on here. Is it because asbestos-related illness is mainly an invention of ambulance chasers trying to business for themselves or is out of ignorance?


Both of my grandfather's spent a few years in their 20s lining ships with asbestos... both died of mesothelioma in their mid-70s...

Some may say that it was the levels and length of time they were exposed... others may point out that it took five decades to be an issue for them...

...then again, it costs $20-30 to get a sample tested... even if you tested 10 different surfaces in your home that's $200-300. Now you know to take precautions working with those surfaces, or even to hire an abatement company... 

So is the money today worth possibly 10+ years of your life? Not to even mention the suffering associated with the condition which is pretty bad from what I vividly remember.


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## leekwok

*hi i am worried about asbestos*

hi i find a crack within the wall i have a picture







this is the pic copy and paste it i wasn't quite sure if it is asbestos my house was built in 1920s or 1930s when i have a look on the house documented it says Kitchen/Breakfast Room (16' 5''plus 2' 9" recess x 9' 5'' narrowing to 8' 6" (5m x 2.87m))
Refitted with a range of wall and base level units with roll-edged worksurfaces to include stainless steel sink unit and drainer with mixer tap, tiled splashbacks, space and plumbing for washing machine and dishwasher, space for gas cooker, space for fridge/freezer, wall


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## rusty baker

leekwok said:


> hi i find a crack within the wall i have a picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is the pic copy and paste it i wasn't quite sure if it is asbestos my house was built in 1920s or 1930s when i have a look on the house documented it says Kitchen/Breakfast Room (16' 5''plus 2' 9" recess x 9' 5'' narrowing to 8' 6" (5m x 2.87m))
> Refitted with a range of wall and base level units with roll-edged worksurfaces to include stainless steel sink unit and drainer with mixer tap, tiled splashbacks, space and plumbing for washing machine and dishwasher, space for gas cooker, space for fridge/freezer, wall


Huh?........


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