# Wiring stove outlet in old house



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Yes. As long as you are not moving the wireing then code allows this. If you move the wireing, by code it must be replace with a 4 wire.


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## tedn332 (Nov 2, 2005)

Since new stove will use 120v for lights/clocks etc it will need a neutral. Bare ground wire may not be used as neutral since it caries current. I believe you will need to run new wire.


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## mdshunk (Dec 4, 2005)

tedn332 said:


> Since new stove will use 120v for lights/clocks etc it will need a neutral. Bare ground wire may not be used as neutral since it caries current. I believe you will need to run new wire.


Ted, while it's certainly a "good idea" to run a new 4 wire, you have your facts sorely confused. 

The old 3-wire range setups were not "un-neutraled" they were ungrounded. They do have a neutral, it is just bare. They have no ground.


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*4 pole plugs and 3 wire source*

The guy at Ace Hardware told me to "put the white on one side, the black on the opposite side and tie one #6 copper wire to the top "green" pin and the other end to the bottom neutral. I just didn't feel right about this, especially when you're dealing with 220. I would be better of either running new 4 wire (B, W, R and G) or getting a three-wire plug and leaving it ungrounded. Is this going to mess up the stove's electronics? Will it be a real live grounding hazard? 



mdshunk said:


> Ted, while it's certainly a "good idea" to run a new 4 wire, you have your facts sorely confused.
> 
> The old 3-wire range setups were not "un-neutraled" they were ungrounded. They do have a neutral, it is just bare. They have no ground.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

The guy at Ace was a fool.

It is not actually unsafe, but you ARE allowed to keep old three wire circuits. They were not "ungrounded". They simply used the NEUTRAL as both the neutral and ground wire. 
The ONLY bare wire allowed to be used for this was the bare grounded conductor (neutral) of type SE cable. You were NEVER allowed to use the bare ground wire in NM cable for this type of installation.


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*4 pole...*

So is there an easier fix than just going to Home Depot and hooking it up on 3 pole plug? Is the breaker at the box sufficient safety for this new dual-fuel stove?

Thanks!



Speedy Petey said:


> The guy at Ace was a fool.
> 
> It is not actually unsafe, but you ARE allowed to keep old three wire circuits. They were not "ungrounded". They simply used the NEUTRAL as both the neutral and ground wire.
> The ONLY bare wire allowed to be used for this was the bare grounded conductor (neutral) of type SE cable. You were NEVER allowed to use the bare ground wire in NM cable for this type of installation.


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Wait a sec here; this bothers me a bit. What, exactly, is a dual-fuel stove? Much more importantly, what voltage does the new stove want? 

If you're replacing an electric stove with a gas one, the gas one almost certainly takes 120 volts, not 240. If this is the case, you can certainly use the existing wire, but it'll need to be re-connected in the breaker panel. 

If this is the case, write back, there's about 10 guys here that can walk you through it.

Rob


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*Dual fuel*

Sorry re: the odd "labeling"...here's the set up. The cook top is gas...5-burners...with elec. ignition. The ovens are both conventional and convection and require a 50 amp circuit. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_... Ranges&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

Two different "fuels", gas and elec. I'm assuming that the white would carry the 120 for the electronics and the black would carry the 220 load. The service in the wall came out of the old double oven and was split on the interior into B, W and R. I am not moving the service, I just took the cabinet out and put a plug in the box.

Thanks, guys!



micromind said:


> Wait a sec here; this bothers me a bit. What, exactly, is a dual-fuel stove? Much more importantly, what voltage does the new stove want?
> 
> If you're replacing an electric stove with a gas one, the gas one almost certainly takes 120 volts, not 240. If this is the case, you can certainly use the existing wire, but it'll need to be re-connected in the breaker panel.
> 
> ...


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

Whew!! Had me worried there for a minute! 

Using your original wiring will be just fine. Instead of having a neutral and a ground, you'll have a combination neutral/ground. 

Rob


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> The guy at Ace was a fool.
> 
> It is not actually unsafe, but you ARE allowed to keep old three wire circuits. They were not "ungrounded". They simply used the NEUTRAL as both the neutral and ground wire.
> The ONLY bare wire allowed to be used for this was the bare grounded conductor (neutral) of type SE cable. You were NEVER allowed to use the bare ground wire in NM cable for this type of installation.



This is true. with old SE you can bond your new receptacles ground to the old bare SE nuetral


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

mrjoeygee1 said:


> Sorry re: the odd "labeling"...here's the set up. The cook top is gas...5-burners...with elec. ignition. The ovens are both conventional and convection and require a 50 amp circuit. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_... Ranges&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a
> 
> Two different "fuels", gas and elec. I'm assuming that the white would carry the 120 for the electronics and the black would carry the 220 load. The service in the wall came out of the old double oven and was split on the interior into B, W and R. I am not moving the service, I just took the cabinet out and put a plug in the box.
> 
> Thanks, guys!



Wow 50 amp circuit. The biggest i have in my fuse box is 25 everything else is 20 or 15.:laughing:


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*Belabored*

Glad to hear it. Here, then, is my final question. Is there a way to wire the 4 pole for a 3-wire or is it better to go get the old-style three wire cord and 3-pole plug?

Thanks, Micro



joe g.






micromind said:


> Whew!! Had me worried there for a minute!
> 
> Using your original wiring will be just fine. Instead of having a neutral and a ground, you'll have a combination neutral/ground.
> 
> Rob


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

It wouldn't be legal to wire a 4 pole receptacle to a 3 wire circuit. 

If it were me, I'd get a 3 wire receptacle, the 'crowfoot' kind with 3 flat slots, and a cord to match. These commonly come in two versions, 30 amp (for dryers), and 50 amp (for ranges). The neutral/ground slot on the 50 amp one is the same size as the other two slots. On the 30, it's L shaped. 

Obviously, you'd need the 50. 

Rob


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*'Preciate it.*

This is a Texas-ism...it means "thanks"! I'm off to get a 3-pole plug and cord to match.

Regards,

joe g.






micromind said:


> It wouldn't be legal to wire a 4 pole receptacle to a 3 wire circuit.
> 
> If it were me, I'd get a 3 wire receptacle, the 'crowfoot' kind with 3 flat slots, and a cord to match. These commonly come in two versions, 30 amp (for dryers), and 50 amp (for ranges). The neutral/ground slot on the 50 amp one is the same size as the other two slots. On the 30, it's L shaped.
> 
> ...


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

So, if I set it up with a 3 pole, the center post and cable is the bare copper, green or ground wire and, in the 3 pole, this wire acts as the neutral. Does it matter, then, if the white or black is reversed? Is there any weird polarity issues? It's working fine, by the way.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

mrjoeygee1 said:


> So, if I set it up with a 3 pole, the center post and cable is the bare copper, green or ground wire and, in the 3 pole, this wire acts as the neutral. Does it matter, then, if the white or black is reversed? Is there any weird polarity issues? It's working fine, by the way.


NO, you have it backwards. 
The bare wire CANNOT act as both ground and neutral. The ONLY exception to this is if the bare is part of a Type SE cable.
The bare of an NM cable can never ever ever act as a neutral.

If you had an old existing NM cable with just black, red and white (and no ground), the white would act as both neutral and ground.


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

I think I'm getting even more confused. The three-wire cord I bought has three copper "loop connectors" on one end, but these are not labeled. I am assuming that the center wire is used as the neutral and ground. The other wires are set up as "powered" and one goes to the black components and one goes to the red components in the back of the stove. The center wire is screwed to the center pole, which is wired to the white components inside the stove. Both far left and far right nuts are for the powered wires, "black and white, coming from the box. Again, I'm using the bare copper wire in the center as the neutral, since I have NO RED wire coming from the wall to the plug.

The bare wire is screwed to the center post and the "other" wires on the cord are split left and right. Again, I am assuming the there is NO ground with this kind of set up.

Please let me know if I'm already in trouble.

When


Speedy Petey said:


> NO, you have it backwards.
> The bare wire CANNOT act as both ground and neutral. The ONLY exception to this is if the bare is part of a Type SE cable.
> The bare of an NM cable can never ever ever act as a neutral.
> 
> If you had an old existing NM cable with just black, red and white (and no ground), the white would act as both neutral and ground.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I am not talking about the cord. I am talking about the branch circuit.


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## mrjoeygee1 (Jul 2, 2008)

*Branch circuit*

Right. The branch circuit that originates at the box is ONLY black, white and a bare copper ground. I put a three prong plug on it. Middle slot is bare copper/neutral. White and black are split left and right.



Speedy Petey said:


> I am not talking about the cord. I am talking about the branch circuit.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

If by plug you mean receptacle, and this ground wire is a bare solid copper wire, you CANNOT use it. Well, you physically can, but it is not right, not to code and not safe. What you are describing sounds like NM cbale.

Whoever ran it either ran it for a straight 240v circuit where no neutral is required, or they had no clue what they were doing.


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## Stavop (Jun 29, 2008)

Guys. Correct me if I'm wrong but the neutral and ground are essentially the same except for the fact that the bare ground is attached to the equipment and is an equipment grounding conductor.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

You are VERY wrong about that.
The neutral is a current carrying conductor. 
The ground only carries fault current.
BIG difference! The fact that they are connected to the same place in the main panel is irrelevant.


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

Stavop said:


> Guys. Correct me if I'm wrong but the neutral and ground are essentially the same except for the fact that the bare ground is attached to the equipment and is an equipment grounding conductor.


your right, sort of, for the most part. But to use your ground as a neutral is very very against code. If that ground went anywhere else before the panel you would have big problems. Like say you ran EMT pipe, and its grounded, and used the ground as a neutral, you would have the pipe also being the neutral, and it wouldn't be safe, and it would cause major electrolysis


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