# Does anybody use/suggest Ramset pins for attaching base plate to cement?



## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

I am framing the walls for drywall in my basement. I am using a pressure treated base plate, regular 2x4 studs, leaving an inch space from the exterior blocks. Using R13 to insulate. I planned on using the Hammershot Ramset to attach the base plate to the cement. Ramset makes "Ramguard" drive pins for use with pressure treated lumber. They come in either 2-1/2" or 3", with a washer or not. Just trying to determine which is the best one to use? Perhaps use liquid nails also? Thank you for reading and any input.


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

While doing more research online I came across this information, http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-P...o-finish-a-foundation-wall/Step-By-Step#step2

They suggest 3/4" rigid inslation, then your 2x4 wall right up against it (no space), then unfaced insulation. Just seeing in anybody had any opinions on this method.

Thanks again for reading and any input.


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## Chemist1961 (Dec 13, 2008)

*Hybrid insul, ramset*

I am at exactly that stage, north of you across the lake. I plan to use R10 foil faced insul at the top half, permeable foam likely type 3 below that to allow breathing of the bottom half, then an air gap, then R13 ROXUL rock wool and a foam sill plate seal under the bottom plate on the floor. I discovered this method at buildingscience.com. It seems to address the issue of a breathable wall so as not to trap humidity. Our climates are very close given proximity...There is much discussion of vapor barrier and air barrier, you need to inform yourself and check your local codes. You did not mention an air barrier behind the insul. In my case the foam will provide that as well as a thermal break.
I have a ramset cobra gun. Depending on the age of the concrete there are green, yellow or red charges, older concrete = harder so a heavier charge in my 35 year old basement. See if there is a fastener/charge specifically for pressure treated that is more chemical resistant. The washer is used more so if there is a load pulling down on a horizontal or overhead strapping from what I have read. Also the ramset guy was at my house yesterday dropping off parts. His advice is material thickness plus .75 to inch into concrete will hold the base plate fine. One difference, I am using steel studs and track.


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## TJ_in_IL (Aug 24, 2009)

I recently learned that you should use construction adhesive on the base plate, not a ramset or tapcons. The mechanical fastener penetrates the concrete and could cause an entry point for moisture. I thought that was quite interesting.
Just a thought.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

TJ_in_IL said:


> I recently learned that you should use construction adhesive on the base plate, not a ramset or tapcons. The mechanical fastener penetrates the concrete and could cause an entry point for moisture. I thought that was quite interesting.
> Just a thought.


Guess it depends how far you go, but yeah makes sense, even if you don't go that deep in the cement. when I demolished my basement (was poorly done) they used nails, and I could just kick some of em and they'd break. They were not rusted to the point that they were orange, but they were very brittle.


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

I am demolishing my basement also, as I wanted to change the layout. They used nails in the base plates and they were in there strong. I had to chisel out around the head, and then use an angle grinder to cut the head off. No moisture issue in my basement I suppose. Though it's not a 100 year old scary dungeon basement. 1966 split level, five feet under and two above. 

I decided I'm going to use the 2.5" drive pins no washer for the base plate; so only an 1" will go into the cement. I'll use liquid nails also.

Still trying to determine how to insulate, leave a gap or not, etc...


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

Jobbly,
I am in the Cleveland area also. I use pt bottom plates with 3" ramset pins, no washer. I have been doing basements this way for over 25 years and haven't had any issues. I also build the walls 1/2"-3/4" short of actual height, stand them up and shim where I fasten to the joists. I don't feel it necessary to cut each stud to exact size and toenail in place. It's not structural. 
Mike Hawkins


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks for the info Mike. How do you go about insulating the walls for this area? Thanks again.


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

jobblyman said:


> Thanks for the info Mike. How do you go about insulating the walls for this area? Thanks again.


Jobbly,
I leave a small space (1/2"-3/4") between the block walls and the stud walls and use fiberglass batts (R13). Typically we do drop ceilings and wrap the ductwork in 1" x 6" t&g pine to break things up and warm up the room. 
Mike Hawkins


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

New code in the province I live in says no batt insulation. Must be foam.
Too many issues with mould and other problems.


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

It is my understanding that mold cannot grow on fiberglass insulation, though it can feed on the paper backing. However I planned on using unfaced insulation...


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

Mike, do you leave the space between the blocks and studs because you don't use the rigid foam insulation?


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## ENGINEER10 (Oct 10, 2010)

*Go for it*

Ramset pins are suitable for attaching a plate to concrete. Penetration of 1/2" into concrete is good enough for this purpose. Do not worry about moisture, the pin enters the concrete at high speed and by force, there is no space left unless you set it too close (3" is min. edge distance) to a concrete edge and concrete cracks upon fastening.

Use washers otherwise head will be overdriven into wood. Red charges are best for a good connection and prevents underdriving.

When using them for light-gauge steel track washers may not be needed, it depends on the gauge of the track.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 25, 2006)

TJ_in_IL said:


> I recently learned that you should use construction adhesive on the base plate, not a ramset or tapcons. The mechanical fastener penetrates the concrete and could cause an entry point for moisture. I thought that was quite interesting.
> Just a thought.


I really don't find that an issue, after all, you are only penetrating the concrete 1 1/2" max, maybe only 1" if the concrete is very old and hard, and the shorter pins must be used to seat the pin head.

The suggestion to built the height of the wall to a little less that the lowest point, allowing you to use a common stud length and frame the wall on the floor , is a real time saver.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

"It is my understanding that mold cannot grow on fiberglass insulation, though it can feed on the paper backing." ----- unless it ever gets wet. http://www.inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/FiberglassMold.htm

http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/insulating-partial-ground-basement-84711/

An air space will create a convective loop: “Batts should also be fluffed to full thickness so that they will be in contact with the cavity enclosure on all six sides and not leave gaps for convective looping. Higher density rolled batts are more effective at inhibiting convective looping within the insulation.” From: http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...llation-of-cavity-insulation?searchterm=insul

And the study the above was based on. Page #35, steel stud thermal loss over wood.
Page #46, air gaps and convective loops: http://www.buildingscienceconsultin...010-03-10_When_R-Value_Doesn t_Measure_Up.pdf

Gary


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## jobblyman (Sep 15, 2010)

Did you happen to see the picture I posted up top Gary? From what I gather you seem to prefer that type of insulation. The studs up against the foam board, but you mention 2" foam board rather than 3/4". Also the batt insulation unfaced/no vapor barriers.

Thanks again for all the input and help.


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

jobblyman said:


> Mike, do you leave the space between the blocks and studs because you don't use the rigid foam insulation?


 Yes.
Keep in mind different areas of the country require different methods due to the different climates. In our area the biggest thing is to make sure the basement is dry before you start. If you have any moisture problems, they must be taken care of before you start on finishing off the area. 
Mike Hawkins


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If you decide to use the construction adhesive beware that it can catch fire if a spark is made while shooting the plates down, the reason I know, it happened to me on one of my jobs.


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## Skoorb (Oct 6, 2009)

> I recently learned that you should use construction adhesive on the base plate, not a ramset or tapcons. The mechanical fastener penetrates the concrete and could cause an entry point for moisture. I thought that was quite interesting.
> Just a thought.


I read this recently but it doesn't make much sense to me

First, if we forget the fact that in some basements there is a perimeter interior trench through which vastly more moisture could get through than a tiny gap in a hole, and second if we forget that under any newish basement slab you're going to have a sheet of 6 mil poly (or thicker), and thus if you don't drill/nail deeper than the cement you have not broken that barrier, how much moisture do you think is going to come up through a nail or screw hole? Concrete is quite porous anyway. And it often cracks, I cannot envision a hole of this size making a difference either way. If you wanted you could use screws and put some silicone in there first but I think it's of no use at all.

I am using tapcons, btw, in my basement. I hate concrete cracking. It makes me want to medicate, and I think with tapcons its chances are lessened. Anyway, they are much quieter and easier to back out if necessary. You'll need a hammer drill, though ($60).

I used a PT bottom plate. Many people don't use one but DO use a foam sill gasket. Either should be ok, but to be honest I used both. A sill gasket of foam (home depot or lowes) is very cheap, less than $10 for 50 feet of 5.5" (get that so that you can trim some away, makes placing the walls easier if pre-built on ground) and cuts moisture/thermal where the bottom plate touches concrete. I stuck with PT so that any that does get through at least has to fight the PT, even though the rest of the studs are just regular grade.


> It is my understanding that mold cannot grow on fiberglass insulation, though it can feed on the paper backing. However I planned on using unfaced insulation...


Maybe, maybe not: http://www.inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/IcyneneFoamMold.htm
http://www.inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/FiberglassMold.htm

Damn, GBR beat me to the mold posts (I post these messages as I read a thread in parallel) 

My basement I insulated with 2" thick XPS obsessively sealed. I doubt I'll put fiberglass batts in front because R10 is not bad for a basement, even though a couple of the walls are above ground. I'm ok with a few bucks lost there in insulation vs the hassle of batts and possibility (hard to quantify) of the dew point coming too far into the wall if my "vapor barrier" of the foam is that far into the insulative layer.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I also frame the walls on the floor l,like Mike and Ole Jim---One tip--in a basement you can not always stand up a wall like you can in new construction---often you will be stopped by something hanging down from the ceiling---

So--I build the walls so that the top of the new wall is near the foundation wall--then the new wall is dragged up--as opposed to stood up---that is worded very badly--but I think you undestand--Mike--


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

lol... In that thread link I posted for the p.t. wood absorbing moisture, it's not: use pt *OR* sill sealer, use sill sealer with *any wood on concrete,* or against it, as a wall. The new IRC accepts non-pt on a wall if separated by an approved v.b. 

In a *colder climate*, 2" f.b. is suggested. This thickness compensates for the colder earth/concrete wall outside, keeping the inside face of the f.b. warm so the basement air will not condense there. Page #9: http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/building_america/pdfs/db/35017.pdf

*Basement* air.......... That is the problem when it contacts the colder concrete wall = NO air gap. Critical step to air seal the f.b. tight against the concrete, and on top. With an air gap and a convective loop, the moisture from the basement will be deposited on the floor joists above the wall to mold and rot.

http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/743

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/des...rt-details/basement-insulation-retrofits.aspx

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KWZ/is_3_6/ai_n8582994/

Gary


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## High Gear (Nov 30, 2009)

This is in bold in GBR's first link and should be .

I myself bought the large size caulk gun and literally glue by the case for my basement.

*if you are going to glue insulating panels to the wall, you do not dab the glue on the wall but apply it in a closed grid pattern that will prevent the formation of a circulating air space -- even one as thin as the glue.




*


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Good point! While I was researching in my library for a different answer, I found this- further on foam thickness: 
.” Interior insulation strategies for basement walls will vary depending upon the amount of water moving through the foundation walls and the degree to which interior moisture will be controlled.

An analysis of various strategies for internally insulating basement walls was performed at the University of Waterloo
(Jeong, 2001). Walls with a combination of extruded polystyrene and cavity batt insulation, with and without a vapor barrier, covered by gypsum board were compared with walls having only a thicker layer of extruded polystyrene and an empty frame wall covered with gypsum board. The walls with an interior vapor barrier did not get wet from the interior during the winter but they did trap moisture during the summer when moisture is moving inward. Without the vapor barrier, the fiberglass batts would remain dry if interior humidity is not excessive during the summer. Such low interior levels of relative humidity during summer conditions typically can only be achieved with active dehumidification provided by air conditioning or a dehumidifier. Walls with 3.5 inches of extruded polystyrene (XPS) and no
vapor barrier performed the best in this analysis. However, walls with 0.75 inches of extruded polystyrene and 3.5 inches of fiberglass batt insulation in the cavity would perform well as long as interior humidity was controlled below 50 percent during the summer. Increasing the extruded polystyrene to 1.0 or 1.5 inches would improve performance even with higher interior relative humidity during the summer months. This part of the analysis assumed that the concrete wall had a relative humidity of 100 percent at the exterior temperature. Since these studies were for a climate location similar to Minnesota, the thickness of rigid insulation (R-value) could be proportionately reduced in milder climates.” Page #10: 
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems


Gary


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

> A sill gasket of foam (home depot or lowes) is very cheap, less than $10 for 50 feet of 5.5" (get that so that you can trim some away,


Staple the sill gasket to the bottom plate and it installs itself when you stand the wall.


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