# Tight fitting vinyl replacement windows



## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

We're replacing the old wood windows in our house with vinyl replacements. The new vinyl replacements fit the opening VERY tightly. The windows are such a good fit in fact, that we had to remove the stool from the window casing to get them in. (window wouldn't go in on an angle) There is very little room (less than 1/16") around the window. The window is level, plumb and square within 1/8". Both sashes operate smoothly.

How the heck do you insulate something like this? Stuff batt insulation into the window "jamb" before installing it? With such a great fit, there should be no reason to shim this window, correct?

I dont know whether to be amazed or terrified that the window went in and fit so well! It's just a bummer having to remove/reinstall trim for each window. I guess you'll have this with old houses...


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Pittsville said:


> We're replacing the old wood windows in our house with vinyl replacements. The new vinyl replacements fit the opening VERY tightly. The windows are such a good fit in fact, that we had to remove the stool from the window casing to get them in. (window wouldn't go in on an angle) There is very little room (less than 1/16") around the window. The window is level, plumb and square within 1/8". Both sashes operate smoothly.
> 
> How the heck do you insulate something like this? Stuff batt insulation into the window "jamb" before installing it? With such a great fit, there should be no reason to shim this window, correct?
> 
> I dont know whether to be amazed or terrified that the window went in and fit so well! It's just a bummer having to remove/reinstall trim for each window. I guess you'll have this with old houses...


 If you have have a jack stud (left or right) that is perfectly vertical, I would screw the window tight to this. 
Then, perhaps the opposite side would have a gap large enough to fill with non-expanding foam.


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

Was just thinking about this... I might try cutting some foam insulation and caulking it to the sides, top and bottom before installing it into the opening. This way, all four sides should be thoroughly insulated.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

use thin backer rod or sometimes it's called ''caulk saver'',it looks like foam rope,slide it in the gap then caulk over that


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## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

What I often do is, using DAP foam(never expanding urethane foam), push the window all the way to one side, squeeze the fill rod into the space and pull it down while injecting foam slowly, repeat on the other side and top, if you can. Center the window, then caulk the gap before reintalling the stop molding.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Pittsville said:


> We're replacing the old wood windows in our house with vinyl replacements. The new vinyl replacements fit the opening VERY tightly. The windows are such a good fit in fact, that we had to remove the stool from the window casing to get them in. (window wouldn't go in on an angle) There is very little room (less than 1/16") around the window. The window is level, plumb and square within 1/8". Both sashes operate smoothly.
> 
> How the heck do you insulate something like this? Stuff batt insulation into the window "jamb" before installing it? With such a great fit, there should be no reason to shim this window, correct?
> 
> I dont know whether to be amazed or terrified that the window went in and fit so well! It's just a bummer having to remove/reinstall trim for each window. I guess you'll have this with old houses...


You're having this issue because the windows were ordered a little too long. It has nothing to do with the age of the house.
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

you do know that sometimes vinyl windows sometimes have expanders at the head that can be removed for more clearance?

sometimes they are very tight fitting and seem to be part of the window


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

tomstruble said:


> you do know that sometimes vinyl windows sometimes have expanders at the head that can be removed for more clearance?
> 
> sometimes they are very tight fitting and seem to be part of the window


i'm pretty sure the girlfriend ordered these expanders in addition to the windows. we have a part leftover after the installation, which i suspect is the expander you're referring to. if thats the case, Lowes measurements must be a bit long. we special ordered these windows about 8 months ago and are just getting around to installing them. hopefully Lowes will allow us to exchange the windows in the event some don't fit at all since they're the ones who took the measurements.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Vinyl windows often have over-lapping corners on the actual frame parts. They are heat welded in these crossovers, making the windows a little large in those four areas. I use a multi tool, and quickly shave off that protruding overlap.

Also, the windows could have been measured incorrectly.

All windows should be measured in THREE places, both vertically and horizontally...... (the ends and the centers) You order the windows by the smallest measurement in each direction.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

Pittsville said:


> i'm pretty sure the girlfriend ordered these expanders in addition to the windows. we have a part leftover after the installation, which i suspect is the expander you're referring to. if thats the case, Lowes measurements must be a bit long. we special ordered these windows about 8 months ago and are just getting around to installing them. hopefully Lowes will allow us to exchange the windows in the event some don't fit at all since they're the ones who took the measurements.


 
the ones you have may be the bottom expander,can you post some pictures?


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

yeah, absolutely. will post them later today. thanks!


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Vinyl windows often have over-lapping corners on the actual frame parts. They are heat welded in these crossovers, making the windows a little large in those four areas. I use a multi tool, and quickly shave off that protruding overlap.
> 
> Also, the windows could have been measured incorrectly.
> 
> All windows should be measured in THREE places, both vertically and horizontally...... (the ends and the centers) You order the windows by the smallest measurement in each direction.


 
all true but when you do order windows you can order them ''tip to tip'' or the exact size you measured or'' standard deduction'' the actual size minus [depending on the window company]


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

A day late, but here they are:

*Photo 1* - Replacement window in place. Interior stops not yet installed.

*Photo 2* - Right side of window/jamb. Very little room to insulate. The left side looks the same.

*Photo 3* - Top of window/jamb. No room to insulate.

*Photo 4* - Bottom of window. Sitting on sill. Had to remove the stool to install window. Notice gap between apron and trim on the left side.

*Photo 5* - The two parts leftover after the install. Large "U" shaped channel which I suspect is the expander. The smaller piece has something to do with the sill/angle?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Many replacement window companies do a generic sill angle. The smaller plastic extrusion is to fill that space. It goes in first and is caulked in place. If the space between the sill and the window is 1/4" or less, you can just caulk the gap.
I don't see too much room on the interior to install a traditional stop molding. Ususally it's 1 1/4", more or less.
Did these windows come with a foam jamb liner attached to the outside? If they did, all you need to do is caulk the interior gap.
Ron


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

> use thin backer rod or sometimes it's called ''caulk saver'',it looks like foam rope,slide it in the gap then caulk over that


As you can see in the photos, the gaps are very small - 1/16" to 1/8" wide. Do they make backer rod that will fit into these gaps? Smallest I could seem to find online is 1/4". Besides providing a backing for the caulk, does the backer rod act as insulation? Or do I need to insulate the space first, then install backer rod, then caulk? Seems like non-expanding foam would not be needed if the backer rod and caulk alone is sufficient. Am I correct?



> Many replacement window companies do a generic sill angle. The smaller plastic extrusion is to fill that space. It goes in first and is caulked in place. If the space between the sill and the window is 1/4" or less, you can just caulk the gap.
> I don't see too much room on the interior to install a traditional stop molding. Ususally it's 1 1/4", more or less.
> Did these windows come with a foam jamb liner attached to the outside? If they did, all you need to do is caulk the interior gap.
> Ron


You're right, there isn't much room for an interior stop. There's maybe 3/4" between the window and the edge of the jamb. I didn't think this would be a major issue since I could use a piece of shoe molding and make it flush.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

What was the stop size you removed? Usually, the same size stop is reinstalled. Was the replacement window thicker then the original 2 sashes?
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

the 1/4'' backer rod should work,press it in with a putty knife caulk over it and your done

i think you would have needed to remove and cut back the stools anyway:yes:


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

Just Bill said:


> What I often do is, using DAP foam(never expanding urethane foam), push the window all the way to one side, squeeze the fill rod into the space and pull it down while injecting foam slowly, repeat on the other side and top, if you can. Center the window, then caulk the gap before reintalling the stop molding.


We'll be using Great Stuff Window and Door foam. Claims it won't bow window or door frames. So you're saying to install backer rod, then foam, then caulk and then the stop moulding, right?



Ron6519 said:


> You're having this issue because the windows were ordered a little too long. It has nothing to do with the age of the house.
> Ron


After experimenting with two windows this evening, I believe you're right. Originally I thought it had something to do with the construction of the window frames or I was doing something wrong. The windows in question are marked with an "Open" measurement of 33" x 66" and an "Exact" measurement of 32-3/4" x 65-3/4" which is the size of the replacement window. We paid $35 to have one of Lowe's preferred contractors come out and take the rough/open measurements. I figured the guy should know what he's doing, so I never questioned the measurements until tonight. I measured for myself and found the width between the jambs to be correct at 33". I then measured from the top of the sill (at the backside of the stool) to the head jamb and came up with 65-3/4"... the exact height of the replacement window. I measured at multiple spots along the sill and the shortest measurement remained 65-3/4". So the window is 1/4" smaller than the rough opening on the width, but the exact measurement of the opening on the height. We got lucky when we first installed one of the windows for a test fit, but now we can't get the window back in.

Checked measurements on another of the 15 windows that we'll be replacing. Again, the width of the replacement window was 1/4" smaller than the rough opening as it should be, but the height was exactly the same. Am I missing something here? Called Lowes and first explained the situation to the associate working in windows/doors and they pretty much tell me I'm screwed. Since the windows are custom order and we didn't have their contractor install them, the contractor won't take responsibility for the error in measurement. The associate suggested "chiseling out" the sill to make the windows fit. I was less than amused by the suggestion, so I transferred to a manager who will "get back to me soon with some kind of resolution". Right... Guess I'll be finding some creative way to make these things fit.



Willie T said:


> Vinyl windows often have over-lapping corners on the actual frame parts. They are heat welded in these crossovers, making the windows a little large in those four areas. I use a multi tool, and quickly shave off that protruding overlap.


Are you referring to the small 1/8-1/4" lip that runs all the way around the outside of both sides of the frame? The windows would probably fit if we cut that lip off the top/bottom, but we were afraid to because we weren't sure if it affected the stability/water-tightness of the window. We also weren't too sure of the best way to remove it...



Ron6519 said:


> What was the stop size you removed? Usually, the same size stop is reinstalled. Was the replacement window thicker then the original 2 sashes?
> Ron


The stops on each window are sized/styled differently. The ones on this particular window were 1/2" x 3/4" with a routed edge. When installed against the window, they end up flush with the interior casing. The original moulding is cracked/rotten, so we're ripping down 1x poplar and making our own.



tomstruble said:


> the 1/4'' backer rod should work,press it in with a putty knife caulk over it and your done
> 
> i think you would have needed to remove and cut back the stools anyway:yes:


I've ordered some of the 1/4" backer rod since I couldn't find it locally. I did pick up some 3/8" to experiment with, so we'll see if it will even fit between the window and jamb. As far as the stools go, I'm now convinced (and angry :furious that the windows are too tall. Really stinks when the window is the same size as the opening and more than likely, the opening in 130 year old house is not square. We have plastic over the windows while we figure this one out. Hope it doesn't rain... :laughing:


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

There's no structural reason that you couldn't remove 1/4" or so of the window frame bottom to get the window in. The older windows had a thicker frame base.
The issue about the too large window size and measuing, you can deal with, but if the window can be "massaged" into place, what's the point?
Ron


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Pittsville said:


> Are you referring to the small 1/8-1/4" lip that runs all the way around the outside of both sides of the frame? The windows would probably fit if we cut that lip off the top/bottom, but we were afraid to because we weren't sure if it affected the stability/water-tightness of the window. We also weren't too sure of the best way to remove it...


No. I'm talking about the boxed part (about 2" thick) that encases the actual windows.

Take your two hands and interlock your fingers in front of your face. That is somewhat how the four corners of the box frame come together. It is at those intersecting corners that a weld is usually made. And some extra material is often left flared up at the precise corner joint.

It is this small bead of excess vinyl that I shave off.


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> There's no structural reason that you couldn't remove 1/4" or so of the window frame bottom to get the window in. The older windows had a thicker frame base.
> The issue about the too large window size and measuing, you can deal with, but if the window can be "massaged" into place, what's the point?
> Ron


Well, it's gotten to the point where the window cannot even be massaged into the frame. We got lucky the first time we test fit it, but we cannot get it back in. It's been 90 degrees here the last couple days, so maybe theres been some expansion. Besides, I'm sure it's not good for the window to be in there that tight. If there would be even the slightest bit of expansion, I'm sure the window could bow or sash operation could be affected.

As far as the measurements, had the rough opening been measured accurately, the windows would fit like a charm. Yes, I could "make" them fit, but I would rather not have to butcher my 130 year old sills/trim to do so. We purchased the replacement windows partly so that the trim could be left intact. Lowe's contractor wasn't as careful as he should have been while measuring, bottom line.


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

Willie T said:


> No. I'm talking about the boxed part (about 2" thick) that encases the actual windows.
> 
> Take your two hands and interlock your fingers in front of your face. That is somewhat how the four corners of the box frame come together. It is at those intersecting corners that a weld is usually made. And some extra material is often left flared up at the precise corner joint.
> 
> It is this small bead of excess vinyl that I shave off.


Oh, ok. Unfortunately in our case, that extra little bit isn't going to help the window fit. The windows are 1/4" or more too tall each. Probably going to force Lowes to make it right and order the correct size windows.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Pittsville said:


> Well, it's gotten to the point where the window cannot even be massaged into the frame. We got lucky the first time we test fit it, but we cannot get it back in. It's been 90 degrees here the last couple days, so maybe theres been some expansion. Besides, I'm sure it's not good for the window to be in there that tight. If there would be even the slightest bit of expansion, I'm sure the window could bow or sash operation could be affected.
> 
> As far as the measurements, had the rough opening been measured accurately, the windows would fit like a charm. Yes, I could "make" them fit, but I would rather not have to butcher my 130 year old sills/trim to do so. We purchased the replacement windows partly so that the trim could be left intact. Lowe's contractor wasn't as careful as he should have been while measuring, bottom line.


There's a big difference between 1/16" space around the frame, to the window now being 1/4" too big for the frame.
Return the windows.
Ron


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

After you get new sized windows and insulate with that backer rod that stuff can easily be cut smaller to fit.


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

For the record, Lowes accepted the contractor's mistake and allowed us to exchange the windows. To date, all but two of them have been installed and they fit like a glove. I've switched from Great Stuff to OSI TeQ Foam insulation. Windows will be re-trimmed in cellular PVC next spring.


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