# Toro recycler gets hot, stalls under load



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm having an issue with our 91 Toro with the Suzuki engine. Starts fine, runs fine under load until the engine warms up. Then, it surges and tries to die. If I stop moving forward, it just sits and revs up and down. If I disengage the blade and wheels, it will do the same. Sometimes putting it from rabbit to choke will 'save' the run, and then shifting back to rabbit will increase the rpms. I can make it anywhere from half way through the front yard to almost through the backyard before it acts up. If it dies, it starts up immediately and idles fine, until I put it under load again.

I've done: new plug, air and fuel filters, fuel lines, cleaned the linkages, Carb jets, float and bowl, and the exhaust port.

I'm going to pull the fuel bowl and float again and run something through where the float needle/fuel bowl inlet is tomorrow.

I'm out of ideas. Help!

Thanks in advance!


----------



## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

I think mixture is too lean; see in link how to:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm#lmaoil


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'll try the only screw on there that is adjustable, but judging from the looks of it it is there for no reason (?).

There is a ridge that follows the body of the carb from the front to the back, and the screw goes through it and comes out the other side. There is a spring on it, though, just like on an Edelbrock or Holley (different planet altogether, I understand) mix screw. I'll try messing with that and temping the exhaust to see what happens to EGT's, if anything. 

Here's the schematic on the carb:

http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=...N+1000001-1999999)&dn=3314_595-4_595017-00015

I did tear it down again tonight, and used some Seafoam Deep Creep and compressed air to clean out the passages where I couldn't get a soft brush through, and added a very thin coat of RTV black to the gaskets from the carb base all the way to the intake port to make sure there weren't any leaks there. Won't know anything until the weekend when the grass grows enough to test again. 

THANKS again for the help! I hope your right!


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

Wonder if it is possible you have a cracked head or gasket. Gets hot and the crack opens up? Anyone think maybe it is trying to vapor lock? Not real knowledgeable about that. I think it has something to do with the fuel getting heated and the line fills with vapor. As it cools, the it fills with fuel again.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

Not sure how to check the head gasket or block on this....I've got a compression tester in my shop, but not sure if I even have an adapter to check it. I'll have to try that HOT next time. 

I don't think it's vapor lock- the gas would have to get hot enough that it would percolate in the lines, and if it was, it wouldn't even be able to idle- especially immediately following it dieing. Best way to fight vapor lock is ether rerouting lines, or adding PSI to the fuel delivery. Good suggestion though!

I forgot to try the screw on the top of the housing after it got warmed up, BUT instead of the rpms oscilating under load and dieing, it only revved at idle (rabbit or turtle) after hot, but under load it was just fine,

I did watch one of the governor arms move back and forth with the revving- could it be related to a spring or a governeor lever?

I also started out with only 2/3 a tank of gas or so to 'force' the condition sooner. I think it's been at least a couple years since I've been able to run it down past 1/2 a tank without it dieing. 

I'll try to mow again on Tuesday if possible and try the screw this time around. I go in for ACL reconstruction on Wed a.m., so I won't be doing much walking without crutches or mowing for about 1-2 weeks following.

THANKS again for all the help fellas.


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

Not familiar with a Suzuki engine. Strange about the tank half emty thing. How did you clean the carb? Tried running it with a different gas cap on the tank. This engine have a diaphram in it?

I have a generator that I have had to keep running with carb cleaner until it would start and run on its own. But, this was from sitting a long time and not being used. I did this trying to avoid taking the carb apart. 

I also wondered about the gov spring. 

That carb have a low speed and high speed setting screws plus the idle adjustment screw?

I'm thinking small gasoline engines in general. What is a recycler? :huh:

P.S. good luck with the ACL. Had a total hip replacement myself. That was a little rough, but had to have it and damned glad I did.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

The whole 1/2 tank thing has been going on for years. It seemed to be the 'trigger'. If I filled it up, it would run fine until I hit half a tank. If I added Seafoam, it would run fine for a little while longer, and then die. 

I've tried torqueing down the gas cap with gorilla torque, as well as leaving it just loose enough to stay on when it died, and no change/luck either way. I'll have to pick up one of those along with some new governor springs.

I didn't see a diaphram. It's a different carb than what I had on an old Toro S200 snow thrower- so I know what you mean- that one had a bad diaphram. Gravity feed/pressure to the fuel bowl, level controled by a needle and float (made of plastic that isn't adjustable). When I tore everything down, I started at the tank. I drained it, then used a 'dentist' pick tool to check in the elbow for blockage, sprayed with Deep Creep (using the little red tube that attaches to the nozzle) and saw no blockage. Replaced fuel lines (filter is less than 1 month old). Removed jet from top of carb. Removed the bowl. Removed jet from inside the feed tube. Removed float, and needle assembly. Used some wire to clean out the orifaces in the jets, sprayed with Deep Creep. Took a bottle brush from our kitchen, hit it with some Deep Creep, and did my best to get it to go all the way from the fuel inlet through where the needle for the float goes. Then hit with several blasts of Deep Creep, followed by 125PSI of compressed air. Did the same with the jet inside the bowl, up to the venturi in the carb throat. Followed with a few blasts of Deep Creep and 125PSI of air. I couldn't get the brush all the way through the tubes due to the 90* angles, but enough that any blockage would have been broke up. Reassembled and added a thin layer of RTV black to each gasket surface, let the fuel bowl fill, primed once, and fired right up (as usual). RPM's seemed a little higher. 

If there are high and low speed screws, I don't know where they're at. I found the idle and main jets, and there's one screw on the body that seems to just fill a hole- you can see the other end come out the other side of the carb. It does have a spring on it like a mix screw, though.

Recycler- Toro's 'Green' propaganda before it was cool to be green . It's a Toro GTS Recycler- my understanding is that it designates a mulcher.

THANKS- I tore it in a soccer game the day after Christmas, was diagnosed as a hyperextension, so after it 'healed' I blew it out 4 more times (playing soccer) before I decided (read: wife forced me) to go see a specialist about a month ago. Everybody I've talked to about knee or hip surgery has said the same thing!


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

If the fuel adjustments are right, gov spring okay, and not starving for air somewhere when hot, I have no idea.

What kind of ignition does it have? Electronic? Points and condensor? Maybe there is a problem with the ignition system.


----------



## moondawg (Dec 17, 2008)

boman47k said:


> If the fuel adjustments are right, gov spring okay, and not starving for air somewhere when hot, I have no idea.
> 
> What kind of ignition does it have? Electronic? Points and condensor? Maybe there is a problem with the ignition system.


This. Sounds like an ignition coil getting heat soaked.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

The wife mowed for me yesterday (and did a great job!). It did the same thing to her- got hot, and didn't want to run under load.

I played with the mystery screw and no dice.

I guess it could be the coil....gets hot and spark is too weak under load but not under idle conditions. Think I can score one on eBay for cheap.

Later Ill post a link to what the coil and pick up look like. Working from my phone his morning.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

Here's the latest.

The wife has been mowing, and unfortunatly, only doing the front one day, and then the back yard 1 or 2 days later. On a fun side note, she discovered the weed wacker after mowing both, and did the edges/weed wacking AFTER completing both LOL. 

When she mowed the front (2/3 of our mowing), it started to act up just as she finished. She didn't have any issues last night when she did the back.

Yesterday, since I'm stuck at home recovering, I thought I'd go out and tear the mower down again. I did figure out what the mystery screw does- it controls the idle speed! I tightened it in all the way, and then backed it out 1.5 turns, and it's turtle idle was just as fast as rabbit idle.

I also pulled the plug and regapped it- I'm trying out this E3 plug, and it was gapped about .037. I closed it to .032- the factory spec. I also checked my Champion plug that I kept just in case, and it was also gapped at .032. I had the same problem with that one as well. The Champion plug had a nice, tan color on throughout. The E3 was tan/red on the ground, and the electrode was a dark brown.

I then pulled the engine cover and coil, soaked with some Simple Green, scrubbed and blasted the crap out of it with the hose. I cleaned up the contact points on the coil, as well as the magnetos on the flywheel, and then hit everything with some WD40 just to protect and displace any water in the bolt holes. Fired right up. No issues when she did the back yard last night, but like I said, it's barely 1/3 of the mowing.

I did order a barely used coil off of eBay for $50- if anything, it's a back up. I am going to try to get her to knock both the front and bak out in 1 shot this weekend since the issue always seemed to happen at the end of the front/beginning of the back yard. 

If the new coil doesn't work, I'll try an NGK plug- maybe the plug is overheating and the Champion and E3 just arent up to the task?

Sorry to be so long winded each post- I just like to make sure that all the information is available to answer any questions in advance. THANKS again for all the help from everyone.


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

Don't mind the long post. I am interested in knowing the solution. I was beginning to think the ignition system was causing problems, since everything else had been covered. Other than that, I am stumped.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

Latest update- I put in the new ignition coil and for the most part it ran flawlessly and didn't die between the front and back yard. I had a small issue with it revving under load and screaming at idle, but i found out that there was a bolt that was a bit loose on the governor lever and torqued back down after I was done mowing. At this point I'm going to say for sure it was the ignition coil, and maybe a little bit of 'help' from the governor. I'll know more this weekend when I mow again.

By the way compression cold was 120..... i haven't checked it hot yet.


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

Thanks for the update. :thumbsup:

I agree with the statement about the governor. I would think it could have been the start of the problem. May have been *the* problem, but I am not that up to date on this kind of thing.


----------



## piste (Oct 7, 2009)

I had a somewhat similar issue on a then new '98 Toro. Took many warranty trips to the dealer. Ended up being a gasket...warped I believe. Between carb body and engine IIRC.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

Solved it! The new coil helped, as well as all the tinkering I did last summer. This summer while experiencing the issue, I observed the throttle lever oscilating with the idle. While doing some PM on the mower 3 weeks ago, I moved the spring up to the top hole on the lever and (knock on wood) it has fixed the issue! No issues at all since then!!!


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

While perhaps great for the environment, ethanol is killer for small engines so see if you can buy gas without it for mowers and things.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

Agreed. I NEVER run ethanol in my mower- it absorbs more water at a faster rate than straight gas, rots soft fuel system parts, and (in my experience) costs more per mile driven (or lawn mowed in this case).


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

I have a friend in Western Iowa farm country that picks up incredible deals on lawn tractors and things and sells the frames, decks, seats, batteries and things for parts on eBay and Craigs List. The engines, on nearly all running ethanol are totaled and shot, in a couple of seasons. His John Deere thing, with new deck to replace the rust and so forth running just on gas without it will probably go forever. 

The problem is, especially in Iowa, suggesting Ethanol might have drawbacks can get a man hung. And of course the great American boondoggle that convinced us Ethanol was good, makes it hard to find fuel without it. What a joke. I am the quintessential leftwing tree hugger but how can fried small engines done in in half their expected lifetimes and dung heaped and landfills be a good thing.


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

I was talking to a couple of my cousins a few days ago who are small engine mechanics. I mentioned that burning gas with ethanol was bad for small engines. One of them responded with, "Where do you get it without it?" I really had no answer.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

boman47k said:


> I was talking to a couple of my cousins a few days ago who are small engine mechanics. I mentioned that burning gas with ethanol was bad for small engines. One of them responded with, "Where do you get it without it?" I really had no answer.


Yeah I know. And it is a shame there is not a pump for just small engine gas at stations. But it would probably cost $12/gallon since it would be like single malt scotch or something. :furious:


----------



## boman47k (Aug 25, 2006)

I have started something this year I have never done before though. I bought some gas preserver to mix with my gaas for my small engines.


----------



## HawkZ28 (Feb 18, 2009)

http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62932

The link above explains problems caused by ethanol and why. This is aside from the fact ethanol contains less power per pound/gallon than a non blended gas. When comparing E10, E15, E85 etc to gas go one step past mpg and calculate the cost per mile.

I use Seafoam on anything thats stored with gas myself. Sorry to continue off topic. 

Either way, I can assure you that ethanol had nothing to do with the Toro acting up in this case.


----------



## piste (Oct 7, 2009)

boman47k said:


> I have started something this year I have never done before though. I bought some gas preserver to mix with my gaas for my small engines.


Good idea. Been doing that a few years myself. Doesn't always seem to help. When the heck is someone going to expose this ethanol BS for what it really is???


----------

