# anti-virus in the cloud?



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I have a new computer, still in a box, but assume it will have a built in antivirus package but I haven't looked to see which one, Dell a gift from my generous family.

But before I open it, I am trying to decide if a resident antivirus package is better than one in the cloud. I have almost zero offline activity like exchanging media of any kind. I might buy and load some software but most of that would be online as well.

Your thoughts, cloud or resident virus software?

Bud
PS, I'm a computer dummy


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

It's going to be the same thing. They just don't describe it well. You'll still need the program running on your computer. Windows comes with one built in now. Dell often ships with whichever company they have an agreement with that month. (it changes every now and then. Usually McAfee or Norton.) 

The biggest difference is that you either just buy a single computer licence, or it's a personal license linked to your account. The difference is that licence can follow you a bit better if something happens to your computer. Both are still subscriptions, although the "cloud" (personal) licence is sometimes more flexible. If you stop paying, the personal version simply stops. The computer based (offline) version will continue to work, but without updates. (which isn't very helpful these days. It's not better then nothing, since there's plenty of free versions out there including Microsoft's version.) 

Some people simply don't like giving information or power to various companies, so the offline versions are sticking around for now. Most of the major brands will still continue to operate without an internet connection, albeit without updates. The exception is any of the online only scans, which are manual only and have no resident scanner on your computer. (the most powerful, and important part of AV) 

Since you're not the most tech savvy, I'd also recommend one of the internet Secuity paid packages. Paid versions offer more tech support when you need it. The internet Secuity packages generally include several browser add-ons to help guide you away from bad sites. They aren't perfect, but it helps. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

I see no need to pay for anti-virus software.

microsoft security essentials does a fine job and doesn't get in the way. i hate sympatec and the other paid products.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> I see no need to pay for anti-virus software..


Someone has to put the time and effort into identifying viruses and making the definitions for updates. They want to get paid too. 

Many companies operate on a freemium model, where they do offer very basic AV for free. (MS is only a basic anti malware. They are OK, but far from perfect.) For people that understand what phishing is then, you probably don't need anything more then the most basic AV. Others that aren't great with technology, need extra help. It's just a fact of life, and that's where I recommend paid products. They offer that service, the free versions don't. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

microsoft makes enough money on other things to provide a basic anti-virus/malware utility without much of a hit.

The ones offer free versions primarily produce paid versions. The free version is based on the same code with features disabled, so there's minimal extra work for the programmers.

I'll allow the people buying paid software to subsidize me, it works.

Generally safe internet use is the best defense; pretty much, you have to open suspicious emails, do illegal things like pirate software and visit bad websites to get virus/malware.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> microsoft makes enough money on other things..


Just because someone has a lot of money doesn't entitle you to anything. That is regardless of what i think about the way they conduct themselves. 

Their free antivirus is an effort to increase security without being intrusive. Their goal isn't to stop all attack vectors, but rather just seriously limit the potential number of computers exposed to various attacks. This greatly reduces the potential botnet sizes which are generally use for anything brute force. (this is how very large and sophisticated organizations sometimes get attacked.) Bearing that in mind, they don't really care if they miss a few here and there. They focus on threats that use net facing exploits, where the day it is released, hundreds of millions of computers are vulnerable. Threats that require complicated phishing, or very specific versions of certain applications are very low priority to them. They get around to them when things are slow, maybe. 

AV companies on the other hand have really only one purpose on mind, identifying and neutralizing as many threats as economically possible. The bigger the company, the more money they can throw at it. 

Now with that said, most people have no idea what digital hygiene is. It's so bad that most people only use 1 password for everything and don't know what 2fa is. They will click on halfway decently looking fakes, forget about the really good phishing attempts. Top that with general confusion about how to even install the AV app or understand the various dialogs when things turn south, and the average person will just glaze over. That's why readily available tech support is such an important service. They will be lucky to be able to even login to ask questions on here once things take a turn for the worse. 

Cheers!


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

To give you an idea what this dummy is faced with earlier today I was on Yahoo's website scanning news articles. Occasionally my tired mouse will go inactive so I find an empty spot and click and it comes back. but this time it started opening an ad. I quickly killed it and came back to the Yahoo page. I knew I didn't click on an ad so ran the mouse over to that blank area again and sure enough the arrow turned into a hand. Moved it around and saw a faint "X" appear upper right, right where it would be on an ad giving me the option to cancel it. Except when I got close to this X it disappeared. Moved away it was back. Moved towards it, gone.

To me this is a cloaked advertisement from who knows where designed to trick users into clicking on it. malicious, who knows but on a Yahoo front page I don't expect having to play games with cloaked ads. 

I believe an antivirus package is a must for the majority of computer use and that includes those who know how to be careful as the bad guys know what people are watching out for.

The reason I'm asking about a cloud package is it seems it would stay more current and I'm not getting any younger.

Bud


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> The reason I'm asking about a cloud package is it seems it would stay more current and I'm not getting any younger.


Lol. 

Since the (cloud) or personal version is more of a subscription model with generally automatic renewals, it is less likely to lapse without you missing it. "offline" versions require you to distinctly buy a new subscription each year. This raises the chances of people putting it off too long. 

If you can make it through the account creation part and not forget the username and password, then "cloud" subscriptions are usually the way to go for the average Joe blow. I know many that would struggle even with that. (Sometimes I seriously wonder how they even manage to log into things like [email protected], etc.....lol) 

I personally use AVG free, although I'm not sure how much longer they will continue the free portion. The ads can be objectionable at times, but recently it's been good. I don't really need help separating the false positives and the legit hits. All the big brands have decent tech support for those that do need the help. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

For a cloud based solution, I would actually be worried about security with info about personal data from files scanned being put through a server. But I'm no expert on how these things are programmed though.

It kind of reminds me of the online tax software; you can pay for single return online or buy the package. There's no way I would ever trust the developer to keep the data confidential and take action should the site be hacked into.


Non-cloud still offers auto updates so it can stay current without intervention and also tell you when the license has expired. 



> Just because someone has a lot of money doesn't entitle you to anything. That is regardless of what i think about the way they conduct themselves.


Has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the business model.

Microsoft charges so much for their os for the volumes sold -> hundreds of millions of licenses and once the development is done, their cost is just distribution. They can afford to give security updates and tech support for 10 years after the original release as well as provide extra utilities like anti-virus - it's intentionally built into the cost of the os.

Apple is similar in that their hardware is marked up so much osx is very cheap, the latest version is only $28. https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-snow-leopard

Edit: Not their latest one it seems, but still gives an idea.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> For a cloud based solution, I would actually be worried about security with info about personal data from files scanned being put through a server. But I'm no expert on how these things are programmed though.


It's usually not like that. There are website versions require you to manually upload files. A few have Java /or similar applets that can scan your computer, but they don't have resident scanners. Since uploading every file would take ages for most computers/ internet connections, it simply isn't viable to do. 

Like I said, the "cloud" versions are licenses that are linked more to you then the machine. That's really the difference, not the actual software or scanning mechanisms. Of course there's exceptions, Everyone has their own ideas how to do things. 

Besides if you're really worried about privacy disconnect your internet. You'll be secure then. You inherently trust any program running on your computer not to be malicious. No matter how secure the permissions to the app, there's always vulnerabilities to be found. 

Cheers!


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> Has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the business model.
> 
> Microsoft charges so much for their os for the volumes sold -> hundreds of millions of licenses and once the development is done, their cost is just distribution. They can afford to give security updates and tech support for 10 years after the original release as well as provide extra utilities like anti-virus - it's intentionally built into the cost of the os..


There's is no guarantee that support or free features will continue into the future. They explicitly deny any guarantees. Their business model may change at any moment. Although if you don't like their model, there's others. One more expensive, some cheaper, or even free. It's your choice. 

To be honest, it took over 1000 programmers, plus management and support staff over 10 years to produce windows 10. That's not cheap by any stretch. (some would argue it extended through 15 years, depending on definition. windows vista / 7 / 10 are all from the same code base and best described as evolutionary steps. Yes there were some larger changes but not so much in the behind the scenes stuff. Most qualified for a few upgrade to win10 so there wasn't much revenue there.) 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

win 10 looks like something crudely slapped together to raise sales for microsoft and allow for more data collection and control over people's computers. You say it took 10 years to develop, lots of programmers yet the product is so bad they had to give it for free to get market share - a testament to management's incompetence. 

Giving it away for free wasn't enough so they've resorted to colluding with intel and amd to prevent windows update from working with current generation chips. Something totally unprecedented. 

I'll stick to old hardware which works properly with windows 7 and use free anti-virus products and advise anyone to buy off-lease hardware.

I'll run linux before ever running win 10 - hopefully microsoft will be forced to change or die.

I must say, the other mainstream software vendors don't have much better business practices; releasing inferior new versions and moving to the subscription model so users are forced to pay year after year and get unnecessary updates which make the software worse. 

The companies producing professional software are the worst - Autodesk, adobe, wrightsoft, sage have all gone to monthly fees for the primary license.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Most free software program updates are actually patching up security holes so I wouldn't skip them.


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

Bud, by now you are totally confused. Let me try to help. The hacker's definition of the cloud is "someone else's computer". That means that you have no control over it's security. You only have control over your own computer. Thousands of new viruses, trojans, worms & other malware are released daily. These days, the all get included under the virus heading but they are all different. No anti virus company can maintain dat files sufficiently to offer 100% protection. 


That being said, the only paid program that I actually use is Anti Malware from malwarebytes.org It cost $43 per year. It doesn't try to take control of your machine the way that McAfee & Norton do. Let Windows Defender run. Malwarebytes doesn't conflict with it. Malwarebytes would probably fix that mouse problem that you have with your current machine. A subscription license for 2 machines is sold at a discount.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> win 10 looks like something crudely slapped together to raise sales for microsoft and allow for more data collection and control over people's computers. You say it took 10 years to develop, lots of programmers yet the product is so bad they had to give it for free to get market share - a testament to management's incompetence.
> 
> Giving it away for free wasn't enough so they've resorted to colluding with intel and amd to prevent windows update from working with current generation chips. Something totally unprecedented.
> 
> ...


This thread isn't about ranting over your opinions of how the software industry is managed. It's about antivirus. 

PS. I use both windows 7 and 10 between devices. There's quirks here and there but I really don't have a problem with either. 

Cheers!


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

BTW, thanks and I'm listening.
The reason my new pc is still in its box is I suspect once I turn it on I will be accepting whatever they have built in. I was hoping to make an informed decision as opposed to a default. 

I'll get the pc open to at least read what I have.

Bud


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

There's plenty of comparisons out there. Here is a really comprehensive one. They avoid the techno-babble as much as possible, and try to make it easy to follow. 

https://www.av-comparatives.org/tests/summary-report-2018/

Windows defender didn't do great but it also wasn't a total failure. The other brands vied for the top of various categories. It's really hard to offer the best protection while also being the fastest. They are almost mutually exclusive, so you pick the traits that are more important to you and balance your risk against that. 

Cheers!


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

The default is windows defender. Anything else that's in there is a sales pitch. Don't consider it a default & don't activate it.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Guap0_ said:


> The default is windows defender. Anything else that's in there is a sales pitch. Don't consider it a default & don't activate it.


That's often the case, but sometimes they offer a year subscription with the new computer, or some significant discount. It's always good to check.

Cheers!


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

> That's often the case, but sometimes they offer a year subscription with the new computer, or some significant discount. It's always good to check.


Personally, I don't care how cheap it is. I don't recommend it. It doesn't help you on the cloud.


https://www.sdxcentral.com/cloud/definitions/11-critical-cloud-security-vulnerabilities/


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Guap0_ said:


> Personally, I don't care how cheap it is. I don't recommend it. It doesn't help you on the cloud.
> 
> 
> https://www.sdxcentral.com/cloud/definitions/11-critical-cloud-security-vulnerabilities/


You've mixed up terms. The majority of AV isn't scanning your computer solely via the "cloud". It simple isn't viable. The tech really isn't much different then traditional licences. 

PS. If you're losing sleep about Secuity in the cloud, you probably should delete every online account that you have, and then stop using every service that's internet connected. That's everything from your banking to your home utilities. They all have "cloud" vulnerabilities and your private, personal, identifiable data. I'm a proponent of higher security, including 2FA for everything, but also accept the risk that modern life poses to us, case by case. 

Cheers!


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

> You've mixed up terms. The majority of AV isn't scanning your computer solely via the "cloud".


I never said that it was scanning by way of the cloud. Let me clarify my position on anti virus programs. 
1- None of them can keep their signatures up to date. 
2- All of them take unnecessary control of your machine.
3- They are worthless when it comes to the cloud since the cloud is just someone else's computer.
4- When I help someone setup a new PC, I uninstall Norton or McAfee on the first day.
5- We have no control over cloud security except using a good password which only helps to prevent data loss not data corruption.
6- I let Windows Defender run.
7- The only paid program that I use is from malwarebytes.org


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Guap0_ said:


> 3- They are worthless when it comes to the cloud since the cloud is just someone else's computer.


I misinterpreted your post. I agree. They have to do their own security stuff. 

The most important thing that one can do is exercise good digital hygiene. (vary passwords between important accounts. Never store unencrypted passwords on your computers. I prefer a pad of paper with my personal scrambling technique. Never click on a link from an email linking to important sites, even if you're expecting it. Open said site manually and login using the regular and official process. Don't use a search engine to find said site. Etc. This is more for the OP as you seem to be on solid ground here.) 

I don't hate the various antivirus programs out there. I used to delete them like you did, but have grown to dislike holding people's hands every time there's a problem. While I only help friends and family these days, they can still take a lot of time and you won't get paid for it. If I was still doing this on a professional level, I wouldn't make enough money to warrant the headaches. It's so much easier to tell them to pick up the phone and call the service they've paid for. When they complain about the lack of service, you point out that you get what you paid for. 

I agree that no service is going to be perfect, not by a long shot. Each will have its weaknesses. I've seen some people successfully use multiple AV software but I generally don't recommend that unless you really know what you're doing. The whole point is about what happens after they fail and a virus or other malware does make it onto the computer. Paid services offer phone support, free services don't. Some of them have fairly advanced recovery tools that they will walk you through. Like I said, it will never be perfect, but it's a lot better then being in the dark and not knowing what to do.....

PS. I strongly advocate to everyone to have a good backup scheme for anything important. That means multiple backups that you verify are working. It doesn't matter if it's a simple copy and paste to various locations, or some paid backup service. Whatever makes you happy that the data is protected. I've seen so many people complain that their data is lost, and hear them complain how their life is negatively effected by it.... Some where actually quite heart breaking. Sometimes it's malware, sometimes hardware failure, or even just user failure. In the end it doesn't matter when you have good backups. 

Cheers!


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## HandyAndyInNC (Jun 4, 2018)

You know that the computer is yours. You can rebuild it anytime you want. I order all of mine with no OS. I have never installed an anti-virus service. I let my router and switch stop inbound packets that are not allowed. I purchase higher end servers, but they are still the same as most other computers. They do exactly what they are told.


Why are you concerned at all with what a could server has installed? That makes no sense. If you want to know the answer, call them. They are doing nothing other than selling you space on another server. Any one packet of data that is moving from one point to another can be read, hi-jacked, written to, modified and even deleted before reaching the destination. It is very difficult to do, and no worth anyone's time to do that.


I would never use a server that is not my own for anything. The company I work with uses cloud servers for some applications. Boy, were they surprised by a couple things. 



1. It is dang slow. It is a shared server. Shared by who knows how many other connections. 100's of thousands to millions of other connections.
2. It is extremely expensive for nothing more than you can have on your own computer and network. Our first bill for one application, for the first month of bi-directional traffic was just over $700,000.00 Quickly the ones with the knowledge that tried to get all the younger generation to keep all operations onsite in the first place, were looking really good to the executives. I am a Database Administrator. We tried to tell them. But they wanted to be "in the cloud". There have been times when the app cannot communicate with the database. Because the cloud server was offline. Actually the network between the two servers was having an issue when someone cut thru the fiber line in the street some where on the planet. We tried using the "Cloud" way back in the late 80's early 90's and the servers were not nearly strong enough to do that. Thank goodness of that.



If you want to make a copy of your data, Fine. Keep everything under a single directory, and copy that directory, and all sub-directories some where else on your own network. You can ever setup an automated script to do that.


Andrew

Handy Andy In Mt Airy NC


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

HandyAndyInNC said:


> You know that the computer is yours. You can rebuild it anytime you want. I order all of mine with no OS. I have never installed an anti-virus service. I let my router and switch stop inbound packets that are not allowed. I purchase higher end servers, but they are still the same as most other computers. They do exactly what they are told.
> 
> 
> Why are you concerned at all with what a could server has installed? That makes no sense. If you want to know the answer, call them. They are doing nothing other than selling you space on another server. Any one packet of data that is moving from one point to another can be read, hi-jacked, written to, modified and even deleted before reaching the destination. It is very difficult to do, and no worth anyone's time to do that.
> ...


While it's an interesting story, it's not really relevant to the OP and probably just confusing them now. Do remember that the vast majority of people only know how to turn the computer on, get to their program or facebook, and get by with their task. That's it. They don't know even how viruses and malware operate or that the weakest link is the human side. (phishing)

They are the ones who need protection on their computer the most. They also need decent tech support when things go south. 

Cheers!


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## HandyAndyInNC (Jun 4, 2018)

The OP wanted to know about Anti-Virus on another server. Most of time, they do not have. It takes up too much time on the processors and can cause the server to run out of memory. I know that sounds odd, when a server has a few terabytes of ram. But it can happen since most of the anti-virus is written for a non-server OS.


I would never purchase anything that I don't know how to fully operate or know everything about it and how it works. I do own a piano, because I cannot play the piano. I know how it works, but I cannot play the piano to make beautiful music. I can however press the keys to make sounds. So, I have not purchased one.


It is useless to worry about things like the Original Poster is talking about. Not wanting to turn it on. That is just plain silly. Why did that person bother to purchase it if they are never going to use it? I am not their accountant, I could care less why. Use it and if something were to ever happen, fix it at that time. Stop worrying over something that you have no control over.


Andrew
Handy Andy In Mt Airy NC


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Andy, you sound like you live in an elite digital cloud of your own and Your advice/ criticism is offending. Sorry I don't live up to your standards.

Bud


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

HandyAndyInNC said:


> The OP wanted to know about Anti-Virus on another server.


No, he wanted to know what it meant and what the difference was. I've explained it above. He wanted to know before he accepted something he wasn't sure of. (Probably something that everyone should do. Eg. Buying remote server space, and being surprised by the costs that were agreed to.) 

Cheers!


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