# 100 amp to 200 amp service upgrade



## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

I am retired so I have taken on upgrading my electrical service. My house was built in 1962. I want to upgrade from a 100 amp service to a 200 amp service. My first plan of action was to put a 200 amp meter combo on the outside where the old meter is located. My problem with this is, now my 100 amp main panel on the inside of house becomes a sub panel. Back in 1962 they wired this house with just hots and nuetrals no bare copper grounds in main panel. My resarch tells me that sub panels have to have the neutrals and grounds separated. I have no grounds to separate. I am stumped, which means I can't come up with second plan of action. Can anyone please tell me what they would do to accomplish this 200 amp upgrade. This is my first forum and my first post. I am not sure if I am doing this right, so bare with me! MANY THANKS FOR ANY HELP!!


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I applaud your enthusiasm for taking on a major upgrade. However, your upgrade is likely to create all sorts of issues you need to think through very carefully before you get started.

1. By your post, your house does not have an independent equipment ground. That may have been code in 1962, my house was wired in a similar way in 1959, but when you upgrade to 200A your local wiring inspector may insist that you upgrade your house to include grounding. Best check with your wiring inspector first. If you do have to upgrade, that would require replacing all your house wiring with new cable with grounds.
2. Your power company (POCO) has to upgrade the service from 100A to 200A, have you checked with them on what the requirements are? Where I live, they furnish the meter, you furnish the base, and only a licensed electrician can perform the upgrade to 200A outdoor service.
3. You are correct in that the old panel will now be considered a subpanel, and will need to have the neutral wires separated from the ground wires. You may be able to install a new ground wire bus on the panel, and separate the neutrals by keeping them on the existing neutral bus. Probably depends on the type of panel you have, there are several electricians on this forum who would know the details about how to do this.
4. If you don't have grounding rods installed already, you are going to need them for the new outdoor disconnect. Check with your local wiring inspector about the rules.

This is a pretty ambitious project, please make sure you understand how to do it first, and be careful. And check about permits and methods with your local wiring inspector.


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## AfterShockews (Apr 13, 2015)

You have a few options but without pics of your existing setup, we can speculate.

What type of panel do you currently have?
How is it currently fed from the service? (cable? conduit?)
If in conduit, you could either run another conductor from your Meter/main combo or if enough spaces and big enough conduit, you could bring the existing circuits to the new meter/main combo.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

Just to ask…you say no grounds…….. is that because you have the rx with no ground?


Do you have BX? which would have ground (metal sheath)


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Only the BX with the bare bonding strip can be used for grounding. The BX without the bonding wire has no EGC.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Why are you increasing from 100 to 200 amps? Are you adding new appliances that require more power? Are you adding more circuits that require additional breaker positions?

Depending on your answers they may be solutions that do not require a service upgrade


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I applaud your enthusiasm for taking on a major upgrade. However, your upgrade is likely to create all sorts of issues you need to think through very carefully before you get started.
> 
> 1. By your post, your house does not have an independent equipment ground. That may have been code in 1962, my house was wired in a similar way in 1959, but when you upgrade to 200A your local wiring inspector may insist that you upgrade your house to include grounding. Best check with your wiring inspector first. If you do have to upgrade, that would require replacing all your house wiring with new cable with grounds.
> 2. Your power company (POCO) has to upgrade the service from 100A to 200A, have you checked with them on what the requirements are? Where I live, they furnish the meter, you furnish the base, and only a licensed electrician can perform the upgrade to 200A outdoor service.
> ...


 Daniel, thanks for your advice. I checked with my local permitting planning commission this morning. They informed me that if my house was built before 1965, which it was 1962, that my house did not fall under sub panel requirements and my main panel would pass inspection as is. I can use my meter combo outside, just bring 4 wires inside just in case I ever run another circuit.Thanks again for you advice!


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

rjniles said:


> why are you increasing from 100 to 200 amps? Are you adding new appliances that require more power? Are you adding more circuits that require additional breaker positions?
> 
> Depending on your answers they may be solutions that do not require a service upgrade


 thanks for your reply, i have built a 24x24 shop in the back of my house. I want to run service to it from my house service. I called my wiring inspector this morning, he informed me since my house was built prior to 1965 that i did not fall under sub panel requirements. My main panel will pass inspection as is.


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

AfterShockews said:


> You have a few options but without pics of your existing setup, we can speculate.
> 
> What type of panel do you currently have?
> How is it currently fed from the service? (cable? conduit?)
> If in conduit, you could either run another conductor from your Meter/main combo or if enough spaces and big enough conduit, you could bring the existing circuits to the new meter/main combo.


 Thanks, it is a 100 amp square D. It is run through wall in conduit. 
I talked to my wiring inspector this morning, since my house was built in 1962 that I did not fall under sub panel requirements. HE was well aware of my problem and my 100 amp main panel would pass inspection as is. Thanks again.


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

ritelec said:


> Just to ask…you say no grounds…….. is that because you have the rx with no ground?
> 
> 
> Do you have BX? which would have ground (metal sheath)


 Thanks, my whole house is wired with just a hot wire and neutal wire. The runs or ciruits have no ground wire.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Install a 200 amp meter main outside. Run a 4 wire circuit to the old panel fromm a 100 amp breaker in the meter main. Run another 4 wire feed to the new shop sub panel. Size of the shop sub based on calculated load.


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

rjniles said:


> Install a 200 amp meter main outside. Run a 4 wire circuit to the old panel fromm a 100 amp breaker in the meter main. Run another 4 wire feed to the new shop sub panel. Size of the shop sub based on calculated load.


 Thanks RJ, it sounds like you have done this a few times. Your plan is exactly my plan to do. 
Thanks Again!!


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

You do realize you will need a new riser from the meter up to the service drop. POCO will determine if they need to replace the service drop.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

rjniles said:


> Install a 200 amp meter main outside. Run a 4 wire circuit to the old panel fromm a 100 amp breaker in the meter main. Run another 4 wire feed to the new shop sub panel. Size of the shop sub based on calculated load.



Sounds like a good plan. Although my first thought in this situation would be not to use the old box as a sub panel but simply a junction box by extending all the branch circuit conductors into the new box. And with each circuit having it own individual breaker. Especially given the age of the original. Good or bad plan?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

wild card said:


> Daniel, thanks for your advice. I checked with my local permitting planning commission this morning. They informed me that if my house was built before 1965, which it was 1962, that my house did not fall under sub panel requirements and my main panel would pass inspection as is. I can use my meter combo outside, just bring 4 wires inside just in case I ever run another circuit.Thanks again for you advice!


I don't know what they are talking about, but regardless of the year your inside panel will now be a sub-panel. Period. 
You are creating this scenario, it is NOT an existing one, so you MUST follow the codes for a new installation. You MUST run four conductors to the inside panel and then separate the grounds and neutrals. Even if there are no equipment grounding conductors you MUST isolate the neutral and provide provisions for the equipment grounds.
Curious, why the outside disconnect? Is it required? Why not just do the 200A upgrade and upgrade the panel at the same time??

I'll also disagree with Daniel on something. I have never in all my years heard of a local requirement to upgrade the wiring in the whole house when doing a service upgrade. This is kind of absurd if you ask me.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

If the original panel were converted to junction box, sub panel requirements are a non issue.

wild card, in my semi rural area the the electrical inspectors are independent of my local permitting office. When I have electrical specific questions I go directly to the inspector, not the permitting office that is staffed with clerks. Just a thought.

Good luck with the upgrade


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Yodaman said:


> wild card, in my semi rural area the the electrical inspectors are independent of my local permitting office. When I have electrical specific questions I go directly to the inspector, not the permitting office that is staffed with clerks. Just a thought.


That is pretty much all of NY State (and PA I believe).


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

Yodaman said:


> If the original panel were converted to junction box, sub panel requirements are a non issue.
> 
> wild card, in my semi rural area the the electrical inspectors are independent of my local permitting office. When I have electrical specific questions I go directly to the inspector, not the permitting office that is staffed with clerks. Just a thought.
> 
> Good luck with the upgrade


Thank you Yo, you are right. I did not want to get back on forum until I talked with the electrical inspector that will do the actual inspection to tell the POCO to turn my electricity back on. I have a phone call in to his office at present asking for him to call me. Thanks to this forum I have some very good questions to ask him. I do not want to have my power turned off then find out that I have a lot of updates to make before my inspector will allow POCO to turn power back on!! Thanks


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

Speedy Petey said:


> That is pretty much all of NY State (and PA I believe).


 Thanks Speedy, I read your post last night, but did not know how to respond to it. This is my first dance with electricity so I am a work in progress. To answer some of your questions about why outside breaker box and disconnect. I have a 24x24 shop about 25 yds from back of house that I want to run service to from my house. I have a used travel trailer that I just bought that I want to run a 50 amp service to, I have a 8500 watt generator on patio by meter box that I want to make plug in for. I also want to put two 110 outlets on patio since I have none. The meter combo on the outside just made sense to have access to power. Thanks for your very good post I have some very good questions that will need to be answered by my electrical inspector before any work is started. I have a call into him now waiting on him to call me back. THANKS!! I will get back on forum as soon as I talk to him personally about what he is going to make me do with this inside panel that will become a sub panel that has no grounds.


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

Speedy, I don't know how to use these forum yet. I responeded to these questions on your last post. Please read it. Thanks for your very good input!!


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

wild card said:


> Thank you Yo, you are right. I did not want to get back on forum until I talked with the electrical inspector that will do the actual inspection to tell the POCO to turn my electricity back on. I have a phone call in to his office at present asking for him to call me. Thanks to this forum I have some very good questions to ask him. I do not want to have my power turned off then find out that I have a lot of updates to make before my inspector will allow POCO to turn power back on!! Thanks


 Yo, on the junction box. It will depend on what the inspector tells me about what I need to do with inside panel. I am going to try to get by with what speedy said in his post. Prepare the inside panel as a sub panel by isolating my neutrals(I have checked they are already isolated with a plastic mounting bracket. They are not grounded now. They have no grounding screw or grounding wire run to them). I want to add a ground bus bar to the panel and when I bring the 4 wires in front meter combo I will put the ground wire on ground bus. If inspector will not let me do this, I will make this a junction. Thanks for your junction box Idea!


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## wild card (Jun 16, 2015)

wild card said:


> Yo, on the junction box. It will depend on what the inspector tells me about what I need to do with inside panel. I am going to try to get by with what speedy said in his post. Prepare the inside panel as a sub panel by isolating my neutrals(I have checked they are already isolated with a plastic mounting bracket. They are not grounded now. They have no grounding screw or grounding wire run to them). I want to add a ground bus bar to the panel and when I bring the 4 wires in front meter combo I will put the ground wire on ground bus. If inspector will not let me do this, I will make this a junction. Thanks for your junction box Idea!


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Talked with electrical inspector today, since my house passed NEC house wiring in 1962 I do not have to do a whole house wiring upgrade(thats good). I can use inside panel. It will need Neutrals isolated in box. I will need to add a ground bus. I am responsible from weather head down. It is ok for me to do the work. THANKS EVERYONE


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