# Torch on roof membrane on deck



## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

I have suspended wood frame (two story) deck built to stand the weight of 2" of concrete finished surface - the deck frame was sheeted with plywood and I had a torch on membrane installed and then we poured a 2" concrete cap on it - nice to walk on, low maintenace and protects the membrane from damage. I love it. but.....

Within days of having the torch on (before concrete) I found seams lifting, air bubbles, edges lifting and leaks (it rained a day later), I contacted the building inspector to come out and he said "don't pour concrete on it yet" it was not installed correctly and the roofer must come back to fix it. The roofer returned and retorched the areas that were an issue. It was February and temp was very close to freezing when he did it.

We went on to pour the concrete and now the deck membrane is leaking again (yes, under the concrete), when I contacted the roofer he said he would never have used a granular touch-on membrane if he knew that concrete was going to be poured on top he said we told him that we were going to install wood on top of it (liar)....and said he is not to blame. He said he would have used a smooth surface membrane, the reason is because the concrete shrunk and pulled the torch-on seams open...BS or not?

The torch on membrane was only one top layer torch directly to plywood (no base)..do we have a professional roofer here that can comment please....I'm in trouble here.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

1. Should have nailed a base then torched to it. Doesn't matter if it was being covered with anything. One of the many reasons for this is that that decking is moving, especially with pouring concrete on it. 

2. We use granulated all the time under concrete, stone, tile etc. Never have any problems.

I'm guessing your main problem is the torchdown being adhered directly to the sheets of plywood. Any roofer out there worth his salt in torchdown knows that's a no-no. I guess as an extension of that would also make your installer your main problem also.

Sorry to hear it.


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

This give everyone a better idea of the install


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Got a picture of a roll or label? Can't see much detail from that picture. Why does that look like an SA?
Do you have any evidence this guy has ever done a torchdown?
Either way, should absolutely have a nailed base under that.


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

OldNBroken said:


> Got a picture of a roll or label? Can't see much detail from that picture. Why does that look like an SA?
> Do you have any evidence this guy has ever done a torchdown?
> Either way, should absolutely have a nailed base under that.


Sorry no picture of a roll or lablel

Sorry, what is an SA?

No evidence that he done torch-on just was told by another contractor he could do it.

attched is a photo of one of the corners that lifted, you can see it just wasn't sticking..


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

The guy has no business holding an open flame on your job. 
Done properly that membrane should basically be melted and fused to the substrate. That membrane doesn't look like it had any heat put to it whatsoever.

You need to find someone experienced in torchdowns. It's the last type of roofing you want a novice doing on your building.
You need to make sure they nail a base, then torch to the base. 
The system is proper, the installer is pulling your leg.

SA is a self-adhering membrane. It would have a plastic backer on it they would have peeled off prior to installation. Tell me it didn't please.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

yea you need a base. for my roof i am doing a firestone 180 granular cap sheet, with a firestone base SA undeneath that will be mechnically fastened. then when it gets torched they fuse together


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

Yeah that roofer was an idiot.Looks like he just torched(tried anyways) the seams and spot torched the rest.Smooth,granulated doesn't matter,it shouldn't leak!!:no:


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

john wanna give me more input in my thread please


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

Thanks Guys, your comments are very helpful in understanding what went wrong, I trusted that my roofer was experianced and knew what he was doing.

I invite others to make further comments as they will be helpful in educating myself in trying to resolve this major screw up with the roofer.

The roofers defense is that you *"can't"* use granular top layer under poured concrete capping. Comments to that issue would be VERY helpful...

This is what I have today a completley finished deck that leaks


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

If others here have actually done a granulated torch-on under a poured concrete capping I would like to hear about - it just a quick comment if you had or heard of any problems like mine.

If anyone knows of a manufactures document that describes how-to do granulated torch-on under poured concrete capping that would be HUGE gift. Thanks


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

already told you, have used it under tile, stone and concrete on several jobs and have never had any issue. Someone else on here may have a rational argument to back his story but I can't think of any.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Can't say anything more then OldNBroken and Johnk.
There simply is no excuse for the roof to be leaking other than the roofer installing it improperly.

You should how ever be thankful he did not attempt to properly torch the material because if he had he probably would have burnt your home down being that he did so with out a base sheet. The base sheet serves as more than just an underlayment, it's also a fire barrier to prevent direct exposure of the torches flame on the roof & wall sheathing.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

LOL nice primer job. That's a good one for sure. 


The installation of something on top of my roof without my direct supervision would violate my guarantee as well as 99% of other roofers. Reason being in most cases, probably not this case, but in most cases the surface applied over my roof might be what actually caused the damage and further more I have no way of inspecting. 

Something also not being said but even with a base sheet, even with a double base sheet, when I am torching I always put down a 1/2" fiberboard over the wood, then a double base sheet.

For future refrence... Hire the Right Contractor!


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Grumps, Nothing wrong with a little extra protection from doubling the base sheet but you can't put recovery board down under something heavy like that. The compression and/or deterioration if it got wet would end up destroying the slab. 

A competent installer doing it properly is what you need.


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

All your comments have been very helpful and greatly appreciated, I now understand that my installer was/is incompetent. He portrayed himself as a professional but he is obviously far from that. This was the only trade in our entire 24 month house build that was not man enough to admit he does not know what he is doing. 

I had also requested that he contact his insurance Co, but no one has conatcted me, which tells me he did not have insurance either. If he burnt the house down it would have been total loss - no insurance.

It appears I will have to take legal action to try and recover the $20,000 to remove it all and do it again.

I am now seeking opinions and input from material manufactures,,,,,,,, thanks guys .......Dennis Galloway (Port Alberni, BC Canada)


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

i think you are going to have trouble getting that 20k from him......


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

What did he do for 20 grand?How big is your deck?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

I think he means 20k to tear it all apart and do it properly. 
Isn't that your neck of the woods JohnK?


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

OldNBroken said:


> I think he means 20k to tear it all apart and do it properly.
> Isn't that your neck of the woods JohnK?


He's in the same province,about 3 or 4 hrs away.I was gonna say,I wish I could get decks like that for 20k.Just a thought,what about coating the concrete or is that just putting perfume on a pig?


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## canada55 (May 3, 2008)

20k would be to 


1200sq/ft deck
Remove glass railing
Remove trim around doors (inside and out)
Remove belly band trim
Remove doors (membrane wrapped into door openings)
Bust up concrete
Disposal of concrete
Remove drip edge
Remove membrane (if we can remove it) or
Remove plywood decking

then start over

Supply and install new plywood deck
Supply and install new drip edge
Install new base & torch-on 
Reinstall doors
Reinstall door trim (inside & out)
Supply & install belly band
Paint new trim
Touch up paint on 
Form up edges for concrete pour
Supply & pour exposed aggregate concrete (pumper truck required)
Reinstall railing

we're on a island and everything is more expensive....thanks Guys


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Best of luck with ya. Try and let us know how it all turns out.
People tend to forget about us after the problem is solved.


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

If there is no living space underneath I would consider a polyurea coating.Save you from tearing everthing up.Just a thought.


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

I have limited experience with coatings,but don't see why one wouldn't work in your case.Here is an example http://www.soprema.ca/en/contenu/116/coatings.aspx


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## johnk (May 1, 2007)

The one I was looking at in the link provided was the Alsan flashing.Just don't want to have to see you spend unnecessary money 'if' this is an option.


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## federer (Aug 20, 2010)

OldNBroken said:


> Best of luck with ya. Try and let us know how it all turns out.
> People tend to forget about us after the problem is solved.


i will come back and see you all :thumbsup:


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## bhricken (Feb 27, 2011)

Slyfox said:


> Can't say anything more then OldNBroken and Johnk.
> There simply is no excuse for the roof to be leaking other than the roofer installing it improperly.
> 
> You should how ever be thankful he did not attempt to properly torch the material because if he had he probably would have burnt your home down being that he did so with out a base sheet. The base sheet serves as more than just an underlayment, it's also a fire barrier to prevent direct exposure of the torches flame on the roof & wall sheathing.


I had this exact same situation but my roof doesn't leak....yet!

I hired a guy who said he did alot of torch down jobs. I noticed as he was working that he didn't have a base sheet down underneath. It was too late to stop him and i let him finish. now this installation didn't have a layer of concrete on top. Its been a summer and now this winter so far without any leaks but i do see the seams of the plywood sheathing telegraphing through the rubber. I would guess that this seem will crack open after a few more seasons. 

So my question is.... rip it off now and start over with a pro roofer? wait till it leaks or have a Pro install another roof on top. (not sure if this solves anything.)

Thanks


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

bhricken said:


> I had this exact same situation but my roof doesn't leak....yet!
> 
> I hired a guy who said he did alot of torch down jobs. I noticed as he was working that he didn't have a base sheet down underneath. It was too late to stop him and i let him finish. now this installation didn't have a layer of concrete on top. Its been a summer and now this winter so far without any leaks but i do see the seams of the plywood sheathing telegraphing through the rubber. I would guess that this seem will crack open after a few more seasons.
> 
> ...


Its never to late to stop someone from doing the wrong thing. You were paying him right? Just a deck, no living space under? Then I would leave it, and know it will need to be replaced. If there is living space under I would probably start getting quotes and talk to a few people. You dont want water ruining stuff under.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

We've done a few tear offs were the previous "roofer" installed torch down over the decking and it was horrible to tear out. 

What we have always done is this four part system (first inspect decking of course).

Install ice and water shield
Install base sheet
Install drip edge
Install torch down

Have done several new build installs with granulated torch were a floating wood deck was built on top. The first one we did the inspector questioned it up and down thinking it was not an acceptable product installed under a deck. The product was GAF and the rep supplied all information needed to satisfy the inspector. The home owner was 18 and nothing against being young but say he gets a group of friends on the deck one night and they drop a burning cig or something and it falls through the cracks? Do you think a rubber roof would be good in this scenario? I think not! 

Know a guy who sold Duralast roofs for a huge local roofing company for several years. He got a call back on a roof leak on a commercial job. Once he got on the roof he knew exactly what caused it. The employees after smoking their cig would flick the burning butt up on the roof. There were little burn holes all over the very expensive roof!

In some cases a granulated flat roof is the way to go.

On my personal house I installed smooth surface torch down on the master balcony under the slate tile. Didn't want to use granulated torch down on the recommendation of my tile guy and tile supply house. One and only time we put down smooth torch.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Never have seen a cig burn and EPDM. I will try it when I go out and have a smoke here in 1/2 or so. Torch roofs are a thing of the past in our area, we have done plenty of EPDM roof under floating wood decks, concrete ect. With very good results. You cant factor in the accident factor. a drop smoke is a droped smoke doesnt matter if its on a deck or on a com. building and some one just flicked it. Should have moped it on. :thumbup:


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

Ya, the guy I know who told me this is now a high end builder (homes over a million bucks) prior to that he was a gm at the states larget Duralast roofing firm. His company put more Duralast roofs than anybody else out there. They installed roofs on the largest roofs in the state year after year.

He said he couldn't believe all the cig holes on the commercial building.

Now keep in mind this was a few years ago when the cigs were allowed to burn free. Now at least in MN they burn out right away.

85, you should quit...


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh,

You have to think a head when your doing a flat roof for a 18 year old who brings in $80,000 a month not required to work. Every base must be covered to insure a "leak proof" roof is installed.

One cig burn causing a leak resulting in an entire deck being removed? No thanks.

We do rubber roofs too, just when the roof is too flat for torch down or if the customer requests the cheaper route. Roofers that know what they are doing can do a very good roof system with torch down. My dads got torch down roofs still holding back water some 25 years later.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Well no burn in 45 mil EPDM after around 5 mins of it sitting there. I know I need to stop, now more then ever. Cig burns are not a material or workmanship problem. They get to pay for that, decking removal and all. I agree with you statement though. Duralast = :thumbdown:. I really do not like them. Most of the DL roofs I have seen are 40mils. They just do not seem to be the cats meow. Torchdown roofs are good, not many people have the skills to run the torch, most so direct over a plywood deck. Plus the owner doesnt like to do them any more, so the dragon wagon just sits on the shelf.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

1985gt said:


> Well no burn in 45 mil EPDM after around 5 mins of it sitting there. I know I need to stop, now more then ever. Cig burns are not a material or workmanship problem. They get to pay for that, decking removal and all. I agree with you statement though. Duralast = :thumbdown:. I really do not like them. Most of the DL roofs I have seen are 40mils. They just do not seem to be the cats meow. Torchdown roofs are good, not many people have the skills to run the torch, most so direct over a plywood deck. Plus the owner doesnt like to do them any more, so the dragon wagon just sits on the shelf.


Insurance is also very high when you put an open flat to a roof! Could have sworn the last rubber we put down was 60 mil.

You must not have the cigs in your state that burn out right away...


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

60 mil is more common, I just used a chunk of 45 because it has been sitting out side in the sun for a few years. I figured it would be more "real world" test. Yes they burn out faster then they use to I had to keep it going every once and awhile. Still though we have used EPDM as a tie off on reroof we were replacing a ballasted EPDM with a BUR and would mop the extra EPDM for a tie off each night, I know you let the asphalt cool and all before sticking it but it still is got to be close to 300 deg. Im not saying this is GOOD for EPDM but never have burned all the way. I think TPO and PVC would be a little more heat sensitive. Guess I could test that too some time. Could use a heat welder and set it at 400 or so deg and see how long TPO takes to burn and EPDM takes.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

Never worked with Duralast but suspect it to be thinner and burn through faster than EDPM or other single ply flat roof systems.

One thing I know about it is it's not cheap!


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Duralast is cheap, to install that is alot of the times they just lay over the existing roof, sometimes very poorly. I have no idea what it would cost to buy their prefab roof. Im sure more then if you bought roll goods. not very good IMO


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