# Oh crap...help!



## princelake (Feb 19, 2012)

no there shouldnt be moisture. open up the wall and check out the problem and get it fixed before moving forward with the drywall work. call and put your drywaller on hold until the problem is fixed. 
also i would put plywood on the bottom 2" where there isnt any drywall. drywall will wick up moisture from off the floor even being 1/2" up. cutting the drywall at 6" would be a pain to mud.


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

It looks pretty bad, doesn't it? But the blackish color is actually from the black adhesive on the back side of the paper showing through. Nothing was actually wet, and there was no strong smell. It looks like it's falling apart but that's from when I pulled a few pieces of insulation out to look at them.

I noticed it looks like the moisture is coming up from the floor on the studs. I also see the studs go to the floor, rather than to a horizontal stud. This house is about 50 years old, so that's why I was wondering if it's normal for some moisture to wick up from the floor over time.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

None of that is exceptable.
There needed to be a pressure treated 2 X 4 on the floor.
I'd bet the insulation is in direct contact with the foundation and there's no vaper barrier.


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm holding up the vapor barrier in the pic, so at least they did that. And no, that's not PT on the floor. When did they start using PT for basement framing? My guess is after my house was built. (Only asking out of curiosity as to when the practice started. I'm aware PT should be used)

Anyways, this is turning out like every other project I've ever done. It goes from a small, simple job to rebuilding the entire house. :furious:

Am I really looking at having to reframe all my basement exterior facing walls? Am I looking at the expense of waterproofing?

:sob:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

spaceman spif said:


> I'm holding up the vapor barrier in the pic, so at least they did that. And no, that's not PT on the floor. When did they start using PT for basement framing? My guess is after my house was built. (Only asking out of curiosity as to when the practice started. I'm aware PT should be used)
> 
> Anyways, this is turning out like every other project I've ever done. It goes from a small, simple job to rebuilding the entire house. :furious:
> 
> ...


you are NOT alone:whistling2:

I am just a lowly painter, so I will not comment on the framing and such, but something is certainly wrong and needs to be fixed before you redo the drywall.


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## princelake (Feb 19, 2012)

something is definitely wrong!i think your basement flooded at some point in time and it just dried on its own. First thing i noticed is the tack strip for the carpet. its almost black and weather beaten and take a look at the nails holding it my guess is they are rusted. Even if it was dry i'd be pulling it up when doing that joint at 6". it would feel awesome running your knuckles along it. Next is your framing you can see the water staining 4" up the studs. and did you kind of just pack that insulation back in? its suppose to be poofy and flat not packed in. insulation doesn't do a thing when its stuffed. also did you notice any mold on the back side of the drywall you cut out? were the screws rusted? i would start going around the rest of the basement to see if its the same as what you found. if so then your basement definitely flooded at one time. if that is the case then remove drywall at 3".if you see mold then go higher at 1' or ever 2' depending on what you find. if you only needed to cut it at 3" replace with plywood filler strips. if its only the one wall or section that is affected then you have a foundation leak and its running down behind the wall and pooling on the floor and may only leak when there is a decent rain. if thats the case then tear down the drywall in that area. get the leak fixed and redrywall it. The 2x4's are not suppose to be touching the concrete but i wouldnt freak and tear down the walls. it isnt that big of a problem to spend thousands. If you do tear out that section then while your at it replace with pressure treat and when you renovate other areas of your basement change it to pressure treat


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## rehab addict (Feb 27, 2013)

Take a look at the grading and downspouts outside of your house, too. If water is draining towards your foundation or pooling there, you'll need to correct that before you do anything inside.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

I was in the same boat with you. I had a fully finished basement that I suspected had water issues. Turns out I was right. Mold on the walls, etc. I'm re-framing as we speak. I'm using a foam seal and PT 2x4 for the bottom plate. If a foam seal (usually pink foam) was used, I don't believe PT wood needs to be used. However, reg 2x4 should never be placed against concrete.

Feel free to view my basement demo thread and ask any questions you may have. I'll gladly share my stories too.

Jeff


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

chrisn said:


> you are NOT alone:whistling2:
> 
> I am just a lowly painter, so I will not comment on the framing and such, but something is certainly wrong and needs to be fixed before you redo the drywall.


It started off so simple. All I wanted to do was frame some drywall around the ductwork and exposed ceiling in the closet. That turned into reframing the closets...then rewiring some of the outlets...light switches...and the phone jack. Now this??? %$#@!!



princelake said:


> something is definitely wrong!i think your basement flooded at some point in time and it just dried on its own. First thing i noticed is the tack strip for the carpet. its almost black and weather beaten and take a look at the nails holding it my guess is they are rusted. Even if it was dry i'd be pulling it up when doing that joint at 6". it would feel awesome running your knuckles along it. Next is your framing you can see the water staining 4" up the studs. and did you kind of just pack that insulation back in? its suppose to be poofy and flat not packed in. insulation doesn't do a thing when its stuffed. also did you notice any mold on the back side of the drywall you cut out? were the screws rusted? i would start going around the rest of the basement to see if its the same as what you found. if so then your basement definitely flooded at one time. if that is the case then remove drywall at 3".if you see mold then go higher at 1' or ever 2' depending on what you find. if you only needed to cut it at 3" replace with plywood filler strips. if its only the one wall or section that is affected then you have a foundation leak and its running down behind the wall and pooling on the floor and may only leak when there is a decent rain. if thats the case then tear down the drywall in that area. get the leak fixed and redrywall it. The 2x4's are not suppose to be touching the concrete but i wouldnt freak and tear down the walls. it isnt that big of a problem to spend thousands. If you do tear out that section then while your at it replace with pressure treat and when you renovate other areas of your basement change it to pressure treat


Flooding was my first thought as well, since the water marks appear to come from the ground up. But there are only two areas that look like that along the wall, the rest of it looks okay, so now my concern is a leak in the wall near that spot. I'll probably have to cut higher up the drywall and look at the wall.

As for the insulation I had picked a few small pieces off to examine the stains, but it was laid in there flat. I did check the drywall and it looked okay on the back, no black or mold spots. But yes, some of the carpet tacks looked bad.

I had to cut horizontally along the bottom of the drywall for two reasons. One was the previous installer left a huge gap, more than 2" in areas, which I thought would make it hard to install baseboard flush. The second reason was when I removed the old, ugly baseboard I found they glued it in several spots and it tore the drywall when I pulled it.

So you would suggest replacing the 2x4's on the floor only if needed? This is an older house and I did notice when I was doing the closets that the studs along the bottom were not PT. This wall is the first wall I noticed that doesn't have a horizontal stud on the floor, just those 6" pieces.



Kansas Girl said:


> Take a look at the grading and downspouts outside of your house, too. If water is draining towards your foundation or pooling there, you'll need to correct that before you do anything inside.


Fortunately I just worked on that and that's all good.


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Trucon01 said:


> I was in the same boat with you. I had a fully finished basement that I suspected had water issues. Turns out I was right. Mold on the walls, etc. I'm re-framing as we speak. I'm using a foam seal and PT 2x4 for the bottom plate. If a foam seal (usually pink foam) was used, I don't believe PT wood needs to be used. However, reg 2x4 should never be placed against concrete.
> 
> Feel free to view my basement demo thread and ask any questions you may have. I'll gladly share my stories too.
> 
> Jeff


I took a peek...nice job and looks like what I'll be doing soon. Also makes me wish my Dad was still around. He was a super handyman and enjoyed projects like this.

Fun story...when I was a kid I used to leave my Dad's tools laying out when I was done with them. I knew he would get mad at me for not putting them away, but I also knew he would find them laying out and realize I was trying to learn how to be handy like him.


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## princelake (Feb 19, 2012)

if you open up the wall take out the bottom plate and cut the studs so you can slide a piece of pressure treat in there, level up the wall and either fire some nails in there with a hilti gun or put some tapcons in it. If you don't need open up the wall just leave the plate and the studs alone. it would be impossible trying to secure the plate. tapcons and hilti shots don't work so great putting them on a 45.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

IMO, postpone and remove it all, read this first, then we can talk; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems

The moisture is from the concrete wall hitting the plastic/dripping down to pool at the bottom, wetting/wicking from there upward on the insulation/studs. No asphalt paper-faced or plastic below grade unless foamboard is thick enough glued directly to concrete OR you are in a "very cold" climate like Canada...

Gary
PS. that cavity insulation is bunched-up, degrading it's value; tremendously...


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Gary in WA said:


> IMO, postpone and remove it all, read this first, then we can talk; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems
> 
> The moisture is from the concrete wall hitting the plastic/dripping down to pool at the bottom, wetting/wicking from there upward on the insulation/studs. No asphalt paper-faced or plastic below grade unless foamboard is thick enough glued directly to concrete OR you are in a "very cold" climate like Canada...
> 
> ...


So the problem isn't moisture in the basement, it's _trapped_ moisture in the basement, thanks to that plastic sheeting. Explains why I can't quite seem to get rid of the smell in this house, despite cleaning and running a dehumidifier.

This is looking expensive.


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

So after reading the "Building Science" article, plus doing some more reading, it looks like I plan to tear out the drywall, add up the cost of the repairs, then walk away, crying, and go live with my Mom.

No, wait...my plan is the following:


Remove the drywall on the exterior facing walls
Remove the plastic sheet and existing insulation
Clean the block wall face and fix any cracks
Put up extruded polystyrene (probably 3/4" or 1")
Put up batt insulation
Cover with 1/2" drywall

Any input is more than welcome. Since I'm removing the drywall, should I bother replacing the floor stud with PT? Or if all the framing doesn't look too bad, just leave it be? Should I bother painting the block wall with a water resistant masonry paint?


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

And here's what I'm dealing with...










The paper backing is darker than it should be, so there is no doubt moisture is getting trapped in there. It looks like it's an overall damp, rather than coming from one spot, leading me to believe it's exactly like Gary said - any moisture was getting trapped in the plastic, dripping down, then slowly wicking up.

Here's another, close up pic...










What I'm seeing is the moisture marks line up with where the insulation meets the plastic. Hopefully this means no big leaks in the actual wall, so all I have to do is properly insulate it and re do the drywall. Except for the fact that I found several of the studs are completely loose. 


By the way, if you look at the bottom right corner of the top pic, you'll see they ran out of insulation the last half foot or so...so they rolled up bubble wrap and stuffed that in there!! :laughing:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Where are you located?

Gary


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Gary in WA said:


> Where are you located?
> 
> Gary


Southwest Ohio. Cold and dry winters, hot and humid summers. So I run the gamut each year...heat trying to get in, heat trying to get out.

I removed the plastic sheet and insulation last night. It wasn't overpowering, but it definitely smelled musty. The good news is the block wall itself looked great. No signs of water coming in, no leaks, no cracks, no black spots. The only signs of moisture were between the plastic sheet and the insulation.

However most of the studs were loose and flopped around. I plan on placing a PT bottom plate and redoing all that.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The new science is foamboard on the basement walls to control condensation on the cold concrete. Here is a link, very detailed, just find Wall #3, (I think), and compare that poly one to the next one with foamboard. Then toward the end, it compares the moisture problems, cost, R-value, etc; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...merica-high-r-foundations-case-study-analysis

The f.b controls the warmth of the cavity to prevent condensation on the fiberglass. It also air seals the cold concrete from humid basement air condensing there. Cincinnati, lowest temps. 3 months average-is 24*F; http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USOH0188

With no f.b., insulation (f.g. or Roxul) in frame wall next to it only, the concrete temp is about 26*F =18% RH any higher RH will condense if room air is 70*F. 

1"(R-5 XPS) f.b. on concrete, frame wall w. f.g.=37*F = 30% RH

2" XPS (code required; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_11_sec002.htm) plus frame wall, f.g.- 44*F concrete at room safe RH of 39%. Depends on how much you want to run a dehumidifier or want the "diaper" smell from poly. Can omit the f.g. for code R-10 foam (continuous) see footnote, only but may have convective loops in a bare wall...

Gary


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Gary in WA said:


> The new science is foamboard on the basement walls to control condensation on the cold concrete. Here is a link, very detailed, just find Wall #3, (I think), and compare that poly one to the next one with foamboard. Then toward the end, it compares the moisture problems, cost, R-value, etc; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...merica-high-r-foundations-case-study-analysis
> 
> The f.b controls the warmth of the cavity to prevent condensation on the fiberglass. It also air seals the cold concrete from humid basement air condensing there. Cincinnati, lowest temps. 3 months average-is 24*F; http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USOH0188
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT! This is exactly what I was looking for last night - a full comparison of many different insulation methods, including cost as well as effectiveness! Huge thanks!!!

The only method I don't see listed is using just 2" XPS. Is that not a viable option?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sure, that will work, fig. 2; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0309-renovating-your-basment

Did you read page 4 about basement floors/condensation? You will be fine as your concrete slab is about 10*F warmer 6' below grade; http://www.epa.gov/athens/learn2model/part-two/onsite/ex/jne_henrys_map.html

Gary


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## ellins (Mar 20, 2013)

I'm late to the party. I agree with the advice given. 

Regarding the foam panels against the wall, I used 2" and taped the butting edges with "red" tape. Also, I cut blockings of 2" foam to fit into joist ends and sealed around edges with spray foam. Then the batt insulation. Perhaps overkill, but before the styrofoam, I laid in house wrap on the walls and into the joist ends, extending to the bottom plate of stud wall, sealing laps and edges with red tape. I used dabs of adhesive or spray foam to temporarily hold in place before putting on panels. The house wrap is cheap and goes on quickly, and it breathes, and does not let moisture pass.

Ted


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Gary in WA said:


> Sure, that will work, fig. 2; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0309-renovating-your-basment
> 
> Did you read page 4 about basement floors/condensation? You will be fine as your concrete slab is about 10*F warmer 6' below grade; http://www.epa.gov/athens/learn2model/part-two/onsite/ex/jne_henrys_map.html
> 
> Gary


I did see the part about insulating the floors but I'll have to pass on that. My budget is limited and the floor has a very slight curve to it, so I'm planning on putting in carpet. But it looks like standard fiberglass batt isn't so expensive, so I should be able to do XPS plus batt. But will I get enough benefit from the added batt to justify the cost?

I also saw where they recommended paperless drywall. From what I've read, you have to skim coat that stuff, and if I'm looking at doing all the exterior facing walls, that sounds like way too much skim coating. :no:



ellins said:


> I'm late to the party. I agree with the advice given.
> 
> Regarding the foam panels against the wall, I used 2" and taped the butting edges with "red" tape. Also, I cut blockings of 2" foam to fit into joist ends and sealed around edges with spray foam. Then the batt insulation. Perhaps overkill, but before the styrofoam, I laid in house wrap on the walls and into the joist ends, extending to the bottom plate of stud wall, sealing laps and edges with red tape. I used dabs of adhesive or spray foam to temporarily hold in place before putting on panels. The house wrap is cheap and goes on quickly, and it breathes, and does not let moisture pass.
> 
> Ted


That's actually the next part I need to tackle - around the sill and joist ends. Spray foam sounds like a good idea for what I'm facing. I'll post some pics...


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Here's a pic of the sill plate. You can see it extends about 1/2" beyond the wall, and there are a few small gaps here and there between the sill plate and the block wall. I'm tearing down the existing studs and putting up new ones. A few questions:

Should I bother caulking in the gaps? I felt no air passing through the gaps, and there are plenty of other open spaces around there, so would it make a difference?

I want to place XPS all the way up the wall, but I also want to put up a stud wall outside the XPS. I plan on nailing PT 2x4 into the floor for the bottom plate, but how do I attach the top plate? If I run a screw through the XPS and into the sill, won't that create a path for moisture?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Here is one similar, I just answered: http://www.diychatroom.com/f15/basement-renovation-2x4-vs-2x3-using-xps-175130/

I would caulk them. I would use 3/4" plywood for a fire-stop/top plate, then build your wall on p.t. on 1" XPS for a thermal/air/capillary break; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par018.htm

ADA the drywall: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/air-barriers-airtight-drywall-approach/

Housewrap does not stop water vapor, Tyvek (58 perms), Typar (16 perms?) very vapor open. Works good on exterior wall or under joists in crawlspace w. f.g. or on attic fiberglass insulation, and can be an air barrier-if perfectly taped, though.

Gary


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## mike dub (Feb 17, 2013)

*this thread is a little old, but re: PT on the floor...*



spaceman spif said:


> I'm holding up the vapor barrier in the pic, so at least they did that. And no, that's not PT on the floor. When did they start using PT for basement framing? My guess is after my house was built. (Only asking out of curiosity as to when the practice started. I'm aware PT should be used)
> 
> Anyways, this is turning out like every other project I've ever done. It goes from a small, simple job to rebuilding the entire house. :furious:
> 
> ...



Spaceman- late reply, but re; your question of when did they start using PT on the floor for basement framing. In our case, our North Carolina home was built in 1970, and the semi-finished basement rooms' bottom-plates (wall bottoms) are pressure-treated. So in one case, in one state, PT was being used in the early 70's as bottom plating. Mileage may vary, but thought I'd chime in since I'm now drywalling the old framing (which was originally covered with wood paneling). Mike


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Dredging up an old thread...I had an egress window installed and no leaks so I'm ready to start insulating the basement walls.

I'm planning on using 1-2" XPS sheets glued to the wall and then put studs in front of that. What I'm wondering is should I place the bottom plate up against the wall and run the XPS sheets down to the bottom plate? Or should I have the XPS sheets run all the way from top to bottom and then put a bottom plate in front of the sheets?


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## spaceman spif (Jul 28, 2009)

Where's Gary in WA when you need him???


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## leungw (Apr 20, 2009)

spaceman spif said:


> Dredging up an old thread...I had an egress window installed and no leaks so I'm ready to start insulating the basement walls.
> 
> I'm planning on using 1-2" XPS sheets glued to the wall and then put studs in front of that. What I'm wondering is should I place the bottom plate up against the wall and run the XPS sheets down to the bottom plate? Or should I have the XPS sheets run all the way from top to bottom and then put a bottom plate in front of the sheets?


Bottom plate in front of XPS.


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