# Ribbon/Moat Driveway



## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

Hello All,

I am getting ready to have a new driveway poured. I want the driveway to have a strip of gravel or grass down the center. I have only been able to get two quotes, i guess because business is booming here in Nashville. One fella told me my drive would only be 3 1/2" thick. I thought the minimum was 4". My question: will 3 1/2" be thick enough? 


Many Thanks
Russell


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Your driveway can be as thick as you want it. Just use wider forms and more concrete to fill them. 3 1/2 seems a bit thin for a drive way.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Four inches is minimum. Sounds like he's charging by the square foot, and buying concrete by the cubic yard, which would save him money. You wouldn't think 1/2" would save a lot of money, but at $100 a yard every little bit helps.

Just put in your contract that it needs to be 4" minimum.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

i don't place 3 1/2" conc for driveways but maybe he's only got 3 1/2" tall lumber & doesn't realize he can back up forms w/dirt,,, IF your d/w's base is good soil solidly compact'd, 3 1/2" is generally strong enough to carry weight of rolling cars provided a proper jnt pattern is used + put in @ the right time,,, IF you park a car on it, static loads are more stressful to conc ( ie - they weigh more :huh: ),,, why not be safer & have 4" ?


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

If your using 2x4 as forms they are 3-1/2" wide, making the concrete 3-1/2" thick.
Why wouldn't it be thick enough considering most asphalt driveways are 1" - 3".?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

ron45 said:


> If your using 2x4 as forms they are 3-1/2" wide, making the concrete 3-1/2" thick.
> Why wouldn't it be thick enough considering most asphalt driveways are 1" - 3".?


OK... With that logic......Pour a 1" slab....

Different product with different streangth characteristics..... one is somewhat flexable... one is prone to structural cracking... concrete has great comkpressive streangth, not much tensile streangth....

Somewhat a matter of opinion, type earth and compaction, type use it will get.....

I probably overbuild.... but around here in snow country, we pretty much consider 4" a minimum......

When you are pouring a concrete driveway (or foundation), considering the initial expense and cost to remove/replace over time.... seems silly to me that someone would worry about using 2x4 or ripped down 2x6 stock.

Just a personal opinion as to cost/benefit return.....

Best


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

there're 2 basic roadway paving materials - pcc ( portland cement concrete ) & acc ( asphalt cement concrete ),,, the former is called ' rigid pvmt ' & the latter flexible pvmt,,, decent b/top driveways're 3 1/2" thick - 2" of base mtl & 1 1/2" top course ( wearing surface ),,, both require suitable compact'd granular base material,,, 
in practice, you only find that on streets & GOOD driveways,,, the rest are cheap driveways about 1 1/2 - 2" thick which soon fail in my experience :yes:

put another way, why not form w/3 1/2" boards & raise them 1/2" off base then backup forms w/dirt & place conc,,, why not ? its too much trouble & costs $$$ so why do that when customer doesn't know difference ?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

RustyRealtor said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I am getting ready to have a new driveway poured. I want the driveway to have a strip of gravel or grass down the center. I have only been able to get two quotes, i guess because business is booming here in Nashville. One fella told me my drive would only be 3 1/2" thick. I thought the minimum was 4". My question: will 3 1/2" be thick enough?
> 
> ...


 

Must be a southern thing, where I come from the customer tells the contractor how thick he wants it to be, and no 3 1/2" is not thick enough insist on 4", and when it's framed up and ready to be poured measure the depth in at least a half dozen places to be sure it's 4 inches.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

stadry said:


> there're 2 basic roadway paving materials - pcc ( portland cement concrete ) & acc ( asphalt cement concrete ),,, the former is called ' rigid pvmt ' & the latter flexible pvmt,,, decent b/top driveways're 3 1/2" thick - 2" of base mtl & 1 1/2" top course ( wearing surface ),,, both require suitable compact'd granular base material,,,
> in practice, you only find that on streets & GOOD driveways,,,* the rest are cheap driveways about 1 1/2 - 2" thick which soon fail in my experience * :yes:
> 
> put another way, why not form w/3 1/2" boards & raise them 1/2" off base then backup forms w/dirt & place conc,,, *why not ? i*ts too much trouble & costs $$$ so why do that when customer doesn't know difference ?


Ayuh,.... Bein' an asphalt Paver by trade, I take exception to *That*,... 

For a proper driveway, asphalt, or concrete, ya start by _Boxin' out the area,..._
So's the final grade is at grade, not raised above the prevailin' grade, unless a fill is necessary,...
(it's All 'bout water control, not bein' Pretty)

With asphalt, We dig down 8" to 12" for residential driveways, allowin' for 6" to 10" of compacted limestone 1, 1/2" or 3/4" minus base,...
If a single lift pave, the asphalt goes in 'bout 3" loose, 'n compacted to 2"- 2, 1/2",...
Type 6, 'round here,...
Type 7 has no strength, stones are too small,... 
I like type 3 binder better myself, abit coarse to the eye, but much stronger,...
Big stones, Big strength,...

For commercial type stuff, the _Box-out _might be 12" to 36",... depends,...

For 2 lift pavin', Binder, 'n Top, it'll depend on the spec, or in hi-end residential, 3" of Binder(type 3), 'n topped off with an inch of type 7 top,...

For Rusty, his driveway strips oughta be _Boxed out_ to whatever thickness of concrete he wants,...
I'd think atleast 4", with steel, maybe 5" or more, donno what traffic he expects,...
It could be formed with 2x4s, or 2x6s, no matter, ya just backfill where the forms were, seed, 'n yer done,.. :wink:


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. 

I won't settle for less than 4" thick. I've had several people look at it and never call back. Not sure why - unless it's the fact that a cement truck won't fit down the driveway. I had another fella look at it today. He seemed to be the most knowledgeable. Hopefully he will call back. He said I need 30 yards of concrete for about $2850 plus gravel and metal and labor . He also said its too wet to work. We've had a lot of rain lately. I have have heavy clay soil which really stays wet and mucky for a long time. He said 4" of compacted gravel and 4" of concrete.

The 3 1/2" guy quoted $11,500. He was also going to seed and straw my yard for the $11,500. I hope the fella who looked at it today comes in better than that. If he does, I will likely hire him.

Gotta go - the grandson is calling. I'll be back.

Thanks again. 
Russell


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

That's quite a driveway you have, got some dimensions length and width??

And what's the metal for??


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Canarywood1 said:


> That's quite a driveway you have, got some dimensions length and width??
> 
> And what's the metal for??


I imagine he's referring to re-enforcing steel.

Here, 4" thick is considered the minimum. Even with 2x4's for forms, 4" is easily attainable, you won't lose more than .01% of the concrete out the forms, so it's a non-issue.

If you're looking for the best value (not price, necessarily) be patient. It's not uncommon for the best contractors to be 2-3 months out in my area, and there's a reason they're that busy...........


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

I assumed I would need some sort of metal rebar or mesh in the concrete. I could be wrong.

I've attached a drawing. The driveway is 10' wide and 170' from the road to the back edge of the carport, which is 20' x 20'. Then an apron in front of the carport and a gravel turn around. I also need a 10' x 12' pad for a storage shed and (2) 4' wide sidewalks in front of the house. Right now we park in front of the house. It's too muddy to park in the back - but it's also muddy in the front. There was a 1500 s.f. building behind the house which we demolished. The lot is 50' wide and I want the driveway to be 10' wide with a 3' wide strip of gravel down the center. My thought was the gravel strip would save concrete and help with drainage. I hope the drawing is discernible


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

I know what you mean about the patience. It can be frustrating trying to find the right contractor. I have a knack for hurrying and choosing poorly.

Russell


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

bondo, take exception all you want :yes: laid enough binghamton b-top to have our own aztec plant + 27 trks,,, never saw boxing out UNLESS the owner spec'd it,,, we bid largely nysdot work + ibm, singer-link, & macintosh, & other major corps,, those owners would req compaction tests, cert'd item #4 base, marshall tests, etc

in theory, there's no difference between theory & practice - in practice, there is,,, btw, nobody spec's steel ( rebar OR wire mesh ) in 4" conc :no: aci always recommends 2" conc cover over ANY reinforcing steel/mesh,,, if everyone had d/w's built correctly ( b-top OR conc ), there'd be more crushed stone than not


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

RustyRealtor said:


> I assumed I would need some sort of metal rebar or mesh in the concrete. I could be wrong.
> 
> I've attached a drawing. The driveway is 10' wide and 170' from the road to the back edge of the carport, which is 20' x 20'. Then an apron in front of the carport and a gravel turn around. I also need a 10' x 12' pad for a storage shed and (2) 4' wide sidewalks in front of the house. Right now we park in front of the house. It's too muddy to park in the back - but it's also muddy in the front. There was a 1500 s.f. building behind the house which we demolished. The lot is 50' wide and I want the driveway to be 10' wide with a 3' wide strip of gravel down the center. My thought was the gravel strip would save concrete and help with drainage. I hope the drawing is discernible


That 3' wide gravel strip will come back to haunt you. One side of the drive will settle more then the other.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

' muddy ' is the keyword,,, now you're probably looking @ more serious excavation ( boxing out )


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

Hello Again,

I just got another quote - $9900 plus gravel. He said I need 35 yards, but I think he's mistaken. I asked if he'd be pouring 4" thick with 4" of compacted gravel underneath and he said 4" thick concrete, but less than 4" of gravel. He said it depends on the soil. I said it's heavy clay and I thought that heavy clay needed lots of gravel. Isn't it true that clay is the worst base on which to pour?

I realize the ribbon/moat strips are not ideal and might be a mistake, but the drive is really close to the neighbor's house and I worry about water run off (the drive is dirt/mud right now) I am hoping the gravel strip will help in the water regard. I originally wanted a permeable paver drive, but I'm pretty sure it would cost 3 times as much as concrete, maybe more. Another idea I had were blocks of concrete, like the attached photo. I'm told it's too much form work and again would jack the price up.

http://www.houzz.com/photos/58792/New-front-elevation-traditional-exterior-other-metro


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

So many differing opinions. The fella yesterday said it's too wet to work back there. The guy today said he could work in the mud. I had a rented 4 wheel drive bucket lift back there cutting trees awhile ago and I got it stuck in the mud. I thought I was gonna have to call a wrecker to pull it, but I finally got it out. I can't imagine working in that clay/mud.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The grade in that link shows that water run off will be toward the neighbor.

So no large mount of water to soften the ground between the slabs.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

why don't you post REAL pics of the drive, not those silly stick pics. how do you expect us to get a good idea of what you are working with, when we can't even see it ?

my very short solution is to gravel the whole drive.


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

I will post some pics.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

RustyRealtor said:


> I said it's heavy clay and I thought that heavy clay needed lots of gravel. Isn't it true that clay is the worst base on which to pour?


idk. but i would think that clay is better, as it i harder and more stable, i think. while soil is softer and less stable.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

RustyRealtor said:


> Hello Again,
> 
> I just got another quote - $9900 plus gravel. He said I need 35 yards, but I think he's mistaken. I asked if he'd be pouring 4" thick with 4" of compacted gravel underneath and he said 4" thick concrete, but less than 4" of gravel. He said it depends on the soil. I said it's heavy clay and I thought that heavy clay needed lots of gravel. Isn't it true that clay is the worst base on which to pour?
> 
> ...


 
By your dimensions the concrete comes in at 28 cu. yds. of course that's not counting the apron or sidewalk, which you gave no dimensions for.

I agree with beenthere about the gravel in the center, with that clay base no water will perc through it.


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

Here are some pics. The one pic of the concrete walls is my yet to be framed shed. You can see how much water it holds (about 4" deep). There are 12" deep footers under the walls. One pic shows the driveway between the neighbor and me. You can see that the neighbors yard is about 8" lower than my drive. I have considered a gravel drive, but I'd rather have concrete


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

what type of foundation do you have ? basement or crawl ?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

That standing water is the result of the clay soil, water wont drain through it.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,..... Is it as it appears in the pic's, to fall to the street, pretty much the whole way from beyond the deck,..??

When it's boxed out, the sub-grade stone oughta be dug to daylight, at the street,...
If the sub-grade is drained, the clay won't hold the water,...
The clay oughta be dug out in a self drainin' swale, cloth spread out, 'n backfilled with stone, 'n compacted,...
A foot deep, cloth, 8" of stone, 'n 4" of concrete with steel,...
maybe 15" deep in the center for the swale,...

Put drainage tile in the subgrade to drain yer open center, 'tween the houses,...
Daylight it down by the hydrant, so's not to flood out yer neighbor,....


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

The house is on a crawlspace. Not sure why, but about a quarter of the crawl is 5 1/2' deep, while the rest is about 2' deep. There are concrete block walls dividing the space. I covered the walls and floor with white 12 mil reinforced plastic. It stays dry down there.

The yard does slope to the road most of the way, Bondo. I like the swale and tile idea. My gutter drains are already buried down the center of the drive and out to the culvert. I'm not sure what you mean by:


> When it's boxed out, the sub-grade stone oughta be dug to daylight, at the street,...


.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

i think he means ascending elevation as perhaps in the last 5',,, but, knowing him, i'm probably wrong about that, too :laughing:

suggest you forget tile & use 4" ads hdpe corrugated pipe instead,,, it comes in rolls of 50' & 100' :thumbsup: much easier to install + its stronger than s & d pipe


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Are both houses tied into the same drainage pipe.? If so, your's crosses the drive.?
Also, is your electric above ground or below.?


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

Houses are on separate drain lines. Mine are 4" thin walled white pvc. My cast iron sewer drain also runs down the center of the drive and to the street. That makes me nervous - if I ever have to replace that cast iron, I'll be tearing up the drive. I could change it before I pour the driveway, but that would be another thousand or three, which I don't have at the moment. The electric is above ground. It attaches on the opposite side of the house. The pole is in my front yard. I wish they would bury the power lines and get rid of the poles. I read somewhere that Britain is in the process of burying all of their electrical lines - not sure if it's true, though (sorry for the digression).


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

RustyRealtor said:


> The house is on a crawlspace. Not sure why, but about a quarter of the crawl is 5 1/2' deep, while the rest is about 2' deep. There are concrete block walls dividing the space. I covered the walls and floor with white 12 mil reinforced plastic. It stays dry down there.
> 
> The yard does slope to the road most of the way, Bondo. I like the swale and tile idea. My gutter drains are already buried down the center of the drive and out to the culvert. I'm not sure what you mean by:
> 
> ...


Ayuh,.... As in when the clay is peeled out for the Box to put the stone into,...
The Box should be able to drain, all by itself, out to the street,...
As in it'll be swaled before the stone is added,... Water will follow the clay, under/ through the stone,....
The quote was a poor choice of words,...

'n, Yes, I should be clearer, drainage tile I speak of is the 4" black plastic roll stuff, with or without a cloth sock over it,...

When done, the stone subgrade can drain by itself, 'n the tile will speed the process,...

For the cost of the driveway, I'd replace the iron sewer line with plastic, before dumpin' the money into the driveway,...
It'd be ashame to have to dig it back up in 5 or 10 years,....


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

RustyRealtor said:


> The house is on a crawlspace. Not sure why, but about a quarter of the crawl is 5 1/2' deep, while the rest is about 2' deep.


ok. the foundation next to where the drive will go, what is that ?
i have seen driveways that are right up next to the house, bow the foundation.


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

The foundation next to the driveway is concrete block. It is very ugly. I added a block to the top of the old bowed outward wall in order to raise the crawlspace in the far right corner as I added 70 s.f. to that corner and the lot is highest at that corner. I had to cut every block on that foundation except the first one, as the old block had settled considerably. I should've started from scratch, but my intention was to do a remodel and it snowballed into a teardown and money was tight and yadda-yadda-yadda. That was July 8th of 2011. (Time does fly.) If I could do it again.....


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

> ok. the foundation next to where the drive will go, what is that ?
> i have seen driveways that are right up next to the house, bow the foundation./QUOTE]
> 
> The 5 1/2' deep crawlspace is at driveway side in the front and goes toward the rear about 15. And I'm leaving a foot of dirt between the house and the ribbon. My foundation wall is bowed out toward the driveway.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

RustyRealtor said:


> The 5 1/2' deep crawlspace is at driveway side in the front and goes toward the rear about 15. And I'm leaving a foot of dirt between the house and the ribbon. My foundation wall is bowed out toward the driveway.


well that is strange and interesting at the same time. mind if i could see a pic ?? from the inside, if you have one.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

bondo mentioned some stuff about b-top so thought a pic of missing wearing course could be appreciated,,, this distress is caused by not maintaining asphalt pvmts,,, the paving jnt was probably a cold jnt so it crack'd sooner than a hot jnt,,, crks weren't sealed w/right sealant, water penetrated the crks, & froze on winter nites,,, tires hammered it & it finally gave way

now we see the underlying asphalt/rock base - next wtr will penetrate the sub-base compacted granular material & it will turn muddy - all of which defines a new POTHOLE 

pay us now OR pay us MORE LATER !


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

I have been out of town for awhile. I think I found a fella to do my driveway, but it's been so wet here in Nashville that he doesn't want to start digging. Fix'n it, I will post pics of the inside of the crawlspace ASAP.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

that is interesting as, normally, lateral soil pressure would cause the wall to bow INWARD - yep, wet down here, too :thumbup: so its good weather for waterproofers :yes:


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