# surface mounted pancake box over sink



## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

imoldfella said:


> The box over our vanity is surface mounted, with the electric wrapped around from adjacent stud bay (not drilled, not notched, see picture). Directly in back of the box is a PVC vent pipe, so its not trivial to make it flush. Its centered in the wall, so not ideal to move it left or right.


 And the box/light is centered over the sink?




> The old vanity light accommodated this strange arrangement...


It's not all that strange.




> Is there a special name for a light fixture that works with a surface mounted pancake? Is this legal by modern code?


They all will.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Any light fixture I have found mounts to the front of the box, so here it would be 5/8" in front of the wall. Normally the front of the box should be flush with the front of the wall. Also many light fixtures have narrow bases, so they wouldn't cover horizontally the wire from the adjacent bay. Neither of these things are easy to tell from the packaging, and the lighting store staff send us home with fixtures that won't work in our application. I am trying to avoid returning 100 fixtures to find one that works.

The old fixture was just a box of sheet metal with the back side missing, with the two decorative screws hacked sawed to allow them to fit in the shallow box.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

imoldfella said:


> Is this legal by modern code?


 
The way the wire was run to the box does not look to code. Should be a steel nail plate over the wire if less than 1-1/4" from face of stud. Maybe if wire remains visible its legal ???


Can't say I recall seeing lights that would cover that properly, out of the box. Many are adjustable, but not sure they were intended to have that much adjustment. Easiest thing might be to mount a nice 8" diameter piece of 1/2" thick oak over the box.


Or the other option, mount a proper box behind the drywall.
.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I don't think you need the box.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Interesting - I have never see this done before where the light is moved outside the box. This might actually work for me with a little work, since I could move the box off center, flush it to the wall, while keeping the light centered. Thank you!


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

SPS-1 said:


> Or the other option, mount a proper box behind the drywall.
> .


Certainly my first choice, but not that easy here - the drywall is 1/2" and directly behind is a PVC vent pipe. The pancake box is 5/8", so even if I cut the drywall and set it back, it will still stick out. Worse, I will have nothing left to attach the box to with the drywall gone. Pancake boxes are most often used in front of a stud with 5/8" drywall, and even then they need cooperative light fixtures because of the CU of the pancake box is not enough.


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

Last time I ran in into a similar situation I was fortunate in that the
plumber was also there and the HO was happy to deal with it however 
was best. 
The 3 of us discussed moving the vent pipe, but in the end the HO decided
to go with another option I gave her, which was to go with sconces on
either side of the mirror rather than the usual central/top light. Being an
internal wall I didn't mind cutting holes behind the mirror to route the 
cables through the studs. This way the HO & drywaller could decide whether
to do a quick patch, finished wall patch, or no patch at all.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I don't think you need the box.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCQdy_smZk


This is an interesting question, my understanding is that you need the box unless the fixture itself provides the box. The old style tube lights didn't need boxes and could just be surface mounted. I replaced one with a new LED light that more or less looked the same - but it did need a box. I have not had any luck googling for light fixtures that don't require a box. If I could find any that would certainly be a problem solver.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Case in point, I have this light on my counter. It has room to make connections if I get rid of the box and mount the light directly to the wall, but the instructions clearly require a box. FWIW, this is an outside wall and the space doesn't allow side sconces (mirror is between a wall and a window). 









https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/b7/b701ddba-7862-41c2-9984-feeaefd48406.pdf


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

imoldfella said:


> This is an interesting question, my understanding is that you need the box unless the fixture itself provides the box. The old style tube lights didn't need boxes and could just be surface mounted. I replaced one with a new LED light that more or less looked the same - but it did need a box. I have not had any luck googling for light fixtures that don't require a box. If I could find any that would certainly be a problem solver.



You're right, most lights require a electrical box because they do not 
include an integral area rated for that purpose.


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

imoldfella said:


> This is an interesting question, my understanding is that you need the box unless the fixture itself provides the box. The old style tube lights didn't need boxes and could just be surface mounted. I replaced one with a new LED light that more or less looked the same - but it did need a box. I have not had any luck googling for light fixtures that don't require a box. If I could find any that would certainly be a problem solver.


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> I don't think you need the box.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCQdy_smZk



Not a compliant installation method. The plate designed to mount 
to the electrical box must do just that.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Notch the stud.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Garvin-4-in-Round-1-2-Deep-Old-Work-Pan-Box-56111-OW/206811308


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Old style strip vanity lights pretty much allowed you to bring the wires in any where along the strip, but shopping around a little the new ones seem to require you to have the box in the center. Does anyone know of a currently available vanity strip where the box could off center by 6 inches? The entire strip has to be under 25 inches wide.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Found this thread with an interesting approach

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=77405

"what we did was install a pancake box on the fixture and remove enough drywall to allow it to flush mount then install the fixture with the manufacturers mounting holes on the ends of the fixture.Hense the box was secured to the fixture and the fixture to the wall.The manufacturers requirements of a box were met and the fixture was mounted as per manufacturers instructions since the box didn`t hold the fixture itself it contained the terminations only.The fixture was mounted independantly so is this code compliant.The AHJ said it was fine what say yee By the way the printed only show a box and not a means of it being mounted :wink:"

The electrician doesn't seem to pleased with the idea, though. I doubt its really code with most lights because the lights assume you will have the connections in the box, but a 1/2 inch pancake box really isn't big enough for connections. (4x.5 pancake box has 7cu, and properly wiring the light in the box requires 8 cu (https://www.ecmweb.com/content/code-calculations-9)

So the wife says "just replace this brass colored light with this nickel colored light" - but it takes a carpenter, a drywaller, a plumber, an electrician, and a painter to change a fixture that was working fine . I think I might see about laminating the existing fixture and call it a day.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Notch the stud.
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Garvin-4-in-Round-1-2-Deep-Old-Work-Pan-Box-56111-OW/206811308


I'm thinking about this, one issue is that the pvc pipe is tight to the stud. So you bring the wire through and now its a very tight squeeze to get into one of those knockouts. This might be best solution though. Thank you for the link.


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## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

I'd drill the stud rather than notching but either is fine so long as 
cable is back 1.25" from the edge of the stud. If less, a nail plate 
should be used. 
Google electrical nail plate if not already familiar.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

What size is the pipe? Does it fill the whole space.


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## imoldfella (Oct 4, 2018)

its 2x4 framing and a two inch pvc pipe all the way to the front. It is a load bearing outside wall (filled with insulation for an extra joy). So I can't drill it dead center without moving the PVC pipe (which is apparently the right way to proceed, just seems ridiculous to change the color of a fixture). I could drill it towards the outside of the wall and wrap the wire back the pipe from the other direction. Not sure that's code though either; somebody hanging siding is expecting that wire to be in the center. So writing this out makes me think it would be better to fish another wire from the basement to the left of the pvc pipe, that could more easily access a knockout in the back of the pancake box.

For an extra joy though is that this is directly over my access panel, so drilling and fishing through that whole mess of cables - ugh.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

imoldfella said:


> its 2x4 framing and a two inch pvc pipe all the way to the front. It is a load bearing outside wall (filled with insulation for an extra joy). So I can't drill it dead center without moving the PVC pipe (which is apparently the right way to proceed, just seems ridiculous to change the color of a fixture). I could drill it towards the outside of the wall and wrap the wire back the pipe from the other direction. Not sure that's code though either; somebody hanging siding is expecting that wire to be in the center. So writing this out makes me think it would be better to fish another wire from the basement to the left of the pvc pipe, that could more easily access a knockout in the back of the pancake box.
> 
> For an extra joy though is that this is directly over my access panel, so drilling and fishing through that whole mess of cables - ugh.


Remove the box. cut out the hole for the box Thai posted lean the drill bit against the pipe and drill the stud on and about a 45* thru the stud. 
Or just notch the stud, you will have to get in the other side to feed the wired so cut a big enough hole to install the cover plate, 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RACO-2-9-16-in-Cable-Protector-200-Pack-2710/203637720


The box will rotate so you have a hole for the wire right next to the stud.


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