# Need roofing tips!



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ok so a sketchy roofer seemed to have conned me out of a $400 deposit I gave him, so I am going to attempt to reroof myself. I've already got some new dimensional shingles, 15 lb felt paper, and 4 box vents (we currently don't have any). I've still got to pick up some nails, drip edge metal, new flashing for around the chimney, and 3 pipe boots. Also I need to get some safety stuff (either those brackets that hold 2x10s or a harness).

The roof is about 14 squares, and two layers need to be torn off first. There aren't any valleys or gables or anything fancy - just the 3 pipes and some flashing around one chimney. Now I am a pretty handy person and normally do EVERYTHING myself, and the only reason I was going to pay someone to do the roof is becasue it kind of scares me to be up there. The pitch is steep, about 9:12. I don't think I'm scared of heights or anything, it's just that I can't seem to get a good foothold while up there, without wanting to slide down the roof.

I was going to buy a cheap nail gun from harbor freight to help me with this, but should I get an 11 gauge or a 10 gauge, or something different? Also, what length nails? I've got 3/4" planks as my roof deck...so I was thinking 1 1/4" or maybe even 1 1/2" nails since they are the same price.

I've got 5 full days off next week (Weds - Sun) and I'd really like to try to get this done...or at least as much as possible. Any tips?

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

-Dave


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

First thing, take the time to read the manufacturers application suggestions on the wrappers of the shingles, or go to their website and read them on line.

14 squares, you won't/shouldn't use the dimensional shingles as starters or ridge caps.

Starter shingles. If you need 140' of drip, than you need 140' of starters.

Measure your hips and ridges,
with custom hip&ridge you need '1' one bundle for every 25',
using 3-tabs to make your own cap you need '1' one bundle for every 33'.

Deduct the amount of hip&ridge and starters you need from the field shingles,
14 square - 3 bundles starters = 13 square - 5 bundles of h&r = 12 square.

So you would actually have 12 square of dimensional shingles, 1 square of starters and 1 square of h&r.

I didn't notice what area your located in, in my area I run ice & water shield on all eaves including on a 9/12 pitch.

Both 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 nails will work on the field shingles, starters and h&r.

You'll need some thing smaller for your felt tho, either 1" hand nails or staples.
You can purchase a slap stick stapler for ten bucks or so.
Get a few tubes of roof cement or a one gallon can, which ever is cheaper and keep it on hand, when you have finished for the day walk over any part of the roof still not shingled and make sure there are no holes or tears in your felt "felt should be #30" but #15 works.

You'll need at least one tube of metal caulking for around any counter flashing's on that chimney.

When you install your pipe boots make sure you get at least two courses of shingles running over top.
When you install your box vents, depending on the size, there will be at least two courses, maybe three running over top.

When you cut the holes for your box vent into the deck, measure down from the ridge at both ends and strike a chalk line at 18", than measure the size of your hole going downward 'away from the ridge' off that line.

You should have a utility knife with a hook blade for cutting the shingles,
most all lumber yards and big box stores carry them.

If your going to use a nail gun, you need to make sure you have proper air preasure, run a few nails, if there not flush than you'll have to adjust the air on your compressor.

CONSTANTLY keep you roof deck clean, every time you finish installing a bundle of shingles, stop and pick up any scraps and toss them to a safe spot on the ground.

For safety, rent a harness, you can also rent the nail gun and accessories in most big cities instead of buying them.
But, also purchase or rent some roof jacks.
Use both, better safe than laying in bed for the next 3 or 4 weeks, than hobbling around for another 4 to 8 weeks because you broke a leg or dis located a shoulder.
I'm not going to even talk about the worse scenario of falling from a roof.

Gutters, hung in the best of quality workmanship with screws are still NOT a safety net, so do not use them for a foot hold while your stepping onto the roof, nor rely on them to stop or even slow you down should you fall.

Be aware of power lines near the home.

Call day labor offices near you and ask for experienced roofers,
you may at least find a few good laborers with roofing experience and they will charge you per hour for them.

I have to go, need to give a home owner an estimate, if I have time I'll try an type more down later.

Good Luck Sir.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Wow. That is a very long and detailed response. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

Unfortunately, however, the roofer ended up calling me back earlier this evening. I say unfortunately because the more I thought about doing it, the more I got excited about it and wanted to do it myself. I went out and bought 400 bucks worth of stuff. I got a nail gun, huge box of coil nails, a bunch of roof jacks, one of those smack stick staplers, and a few other things. There's a few other things I'd need but I've got most of it.

But then the roofer calls me back, and gives me some bogus excuse as to why he didn't show up this morning, and didn't even bother to call. He promised he would be over tomorrow morning to start. We'll see. I told him if he doesn't show up, then he doesn't have the job. Whether or not that will forfeit my $400 deposit, I'm not sure. But even if I "give" him $400 and spend another 4 to 5 hundred on tools and supplies, then I'm still coming out almost $1000 cheaper if I do the work myself. Plus I just really enjoy doing things myself so that would be a plus too. And of course I'd get to keep the tools...:wink:

So we'll see if he actually shows up. Either way though, the response is very informative and helps to clear up a few things. I have a few questions but I'm too tired right now...I'll try to follow up tomorrow. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

So, this Panic Anxiety Attack all started because the roofer was one day late and not considerate enough to make the time to give you a telephone call?

I am Not defending him, but schedules get screwed up ALL of the time, not only due to weather, but doing additional work on the current job and if any employee calls in sick, it slows everything down, A LOT.

But, good for you for being proactive and considering taking on this task.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> So, this Panic Anxiety Attack all started because the roofer was one day late and not considerate enough to make the time to give you a telephone call?


Well if you had met this guy then you would understand why I thought he was trying to rip me off. I never felt comfortable with the idea of giving him any money up front at all and now wish I hadn't.

And guess what? He didn't show up on Saturday.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm in Youngstown, Ohio so if your in that area give me a call and I'll do what I can to help you out, even if it's just talking you through certain aspects of the work as you do the roof yourself.

Ed and I both belong to a roofing group and we know roofers in other parts of Ohio such as Toledo.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I'm in Youngstown, Ohio so if your in that area give me a call and I'll do what I can to help you out, even if it's just talking you through certain aspects of the work as you do the roof yourself.


Youngstown, eh? I'm actually in Cincinnati. I've got a few questions in regards to your original post:

1. Ice Shield. Do you think I would need this in Cincinnati? It only snows a few times a year and is usually not very much. I'm not sure if we currently have one, but there didn't appear to be any problems in that area this or last winter. If we have one already, can we reuse it? If not, about how much would cost for new (about 70 ft.)?

2. Roof Jacks. Would you recommend putting them all along the bottom edge of the side I am working on, or only have one or two sets and just move them as I move along the roof? Also, is it better to move them up the roof towards the peak, so that they can actually be used as a foothold, rather than just a safety catch, or should I just have them at the bottom near the gutters?

3. Chimney Flashing. Does this get installed first, after the felt paper, or after the shingles?

4. Hips and Ridges. I don't have any hips, but as far as the ridge, my "roofer" had me pick up one square of 3-tabs for the ridge. How is this applied? Would I cut the 3 tabs off and lay those across the ridge, overlapping by an inch or two? Do I discard the rest of the shingle, the part that is not the "tab"?

5. Drip edge. I need drip metal along the entire perimeter of my roof, along both eaves and rake edges, correct? It is my understanding that the drip metal along the rakes goes on after the felt paper, but the drip metal along the eaves goes on before the felt paper, with the felt overlapping. Correct? Also, can I reuse existing drip metal? If not, about how much does this cost?

6. Starters. I've read that I need them along my eaves, but do I need them along the rakes as well? What is the purpose of these and how are they applied? I've heard that you put them on upside down but am unsure if that's correct. Also, you mentioned that I cannot use dimensionals for this. Not that I think my "roofer" is credible, but he diidn't mention anything of this, so I have one square of 3-tabs for the ridge cap, but only dimensionals for everything else (14 squares).

Thanks a lot for your help and responses. I really appreciate it. :thumbup:


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> Youngstown, eh? I'm actually in Cincinnati. I've got a few questions in regards to your original post:
> 
> 1. Ice Shield. Do you think I would need this in Cincinnati? It only snows a few times a year and is usually not very much. I'm not sure if we currently have one, but there didn't appear to be any problems in that area this or last winter. If we have one already, can we reuse it? If not, about how much would cost for new (about 70 ft.)?
> 
> ...



If I wasn't clear enough on my responses just let me know and I'll try again.


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........

Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?

When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

MJW said:


> I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........
> 
> Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?
> 
> When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.


I do the same MJW, but also because they make you sign an agreement that you will follow their unique codes, which may or may not have been modified from UBC or IRC commonly accepted codes.

Some towns want Ice and Water Shield 12" to the interior of the exterior heated wall, and some want 24" inside.

I prefer 24", but if you add 300 to 600 feet of I & W Shield to your proposal and no one else bid it that way, you need to justify why you are so much more competent and also so much more pricier. 

Also, there are some that make up rules too. Two towns, (same building inspector), will not allow Aluminum Flashings if there is any Masonry surfaces that they would be attached to.

I know the reason why, but I have never seen in real life, the wicked effect that supposedly can occur. So, if that is what I am supposed to install, then it is buffered by a layer of bituthane, (I & W), between the masonry and the aluminum.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Two towns will not allow Aluminum Flashings if there is any Masonry surfaces that they would be attached to.
> 
> I know the reason why, but I have never seen in real life, the wicked effect that supposedly can occur.
> 
> Ed


I'm just curious, what is the reason why?


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> If I wasn't clear enough on my responses just let me know and I'll try again.


Thank you Slyfox for the helpful tips. I really appreciate it. I've got a few additional comments/questions if you've got the time:

1. Ice Dam. I think I'm going to pass on this. I saw it at Lowe's today, and you are right - it would cost me close to $200 to add that.

2. Roof Jacks. Just to clarify, do you think it would be worth the extra cost to leave the first row of roof jacks installed the whole time, and then adding additional jacks higher up, rather than just moving them as needed? My only concern is that it costs close to $20 for each complete set of jacks (two jacks plus one 8' 2x6). I currently have enough for four complete sets. I did pick up a roofing harness today.

Also, with the roof jacks, is it a problem if I need to install them in a spot AFTER laying new shingles? Would I just pound the nails in after I'm finished and cover with roofing cement?

I was thinking that I would begin by scraping the bottom few rows of shingles off, from the ladder, and then installing the bottom row of roof jacks, again from the ladder. Then, once those are on, I could climb on the roof and begin tearing off the rest. I would have to remove the jacks to lay the first sheet of tar paper, then put the jacks back on so I could lay paper on the rest of the roof. Then I'd have to remove them again to lay the first row of shingles, and install them once more to install the rest of the shingles. Does that sound right to you, or am I doing it backwards?

3. Starters. I'd prefer to use the dimensionals if I can, because I got them cheap and don't think I can return them to the place where I bought them. So you definitely advise cutting the "dimensional" part off, rather than just placing it upside down (with the normally covered up part towards the edge of the roof)? And to clarify the starters on the rake will be laid vertically, rather than horizontally, correct? Also to clarify, the starters are laid with the grit (which normally faces the sky) facing the wood sheathing?

4. Carrying up new shingles. When is the best time to do this? I figured it would be after the tar paper is laid, but my dad said I should bring them up first, before the tearoff, because the tar paper is too slippery. What do you think? Either way, I plan on constructing a hoist/pulley system with a sort of "sled" to ride up the extension ladder and then up to the top of the roof to make the job a bit easier.

5. Tarps. The weather this week looks questionable. If I finish the tear off, and either am or am not able to finish laying the tar paper in the same day, would covering with tarps be sufficient if it were to rain that night or the next day? Again, I plan on only working on one side until it is completely finished in order to minimize potential weather problems, etc.

I'm sure you're busy, and appreciate the time you're taking to help me. If it makes you feel any better, it took me over an hour to organize my thoughts and write this post alone...


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

dc4nomore said:


> I'm just curious, what is the reason why?


Aluminum is attacked by Alkali Hydroxides contained in wet lime mortar, portland cement, and concrete, resulting in increasing PH values and that would then follow, that if a masonry chimney were to be 
"Re-Wetted" from future rains, the corrosiveness of the contact can be reinitiated over and over again. 

That is why I ensure a separation membrane of the Ice and Water Shield between any aluminum flashings and masonry structures.

Ed
 
​


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

MJW said:


> I just have a quick question and hope I'm not interrupting........
> 
> Doesn't anyone else have codes to follow or inspections?
> 
> When I pick up a permit, I usually pick up the flyers there for their application of roofing. It outlines everything you must do. Every city is a little different, so that's why I pick it up.


In Ohio residential roofing is a non regulated trade and doe's not require a permit to be pulled if the roofing is the only work going on.
I'm sure there very well may be cities that do require it, but I have never encountered one as of yet.

I follow county codes on all my work which is why I am always toward the top of the list of estimates I do, but I don't have to because no one is going to inspect my work once I'm done.
I do it anyone because there are framing inspections in new construction work, which is the field I work in most, thus it's become habit.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> Thank you Slyfox for the helpful tips. I really appreciate it. I've got a few additional comments/questions if you've got the time:
> 
> 1. Ice Dam. I think I'm going to pass on this. I saw it at Lowe's today, and you are right - it would cost me close to $200 to add that.
> 
> ...


As a home owner installing a roof on your personal home, you are not bound by law to follow nor meet OSHA rules & regulations,
but I can not, will not comment on how to work a steeper roof with only one set of roof jacks set up across the bottom, thus I strongly suggest spending the additional monies for more roof jacks.
Find your local shingle supply house, maybe an ABC Supply, they will normally have better deals price wize on roof jacks, etc., than what lowes will.

Actually the first three days of this week are rainy here and we will not be starting our next re-roof until Thursday, so it's just service calls and two inspections for home buyers yesterday and today, so was no problem trying to help you out.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Aluminum is attacked by Alkali Hydroxides contained in wet lime mortar, portland cement, and concrete, resulting in increasing PH values and that would then follow, that if a masonry chimney were to be
> "Re-Wetted" from future rains, the corrosiveness of the contact can be reinitiated over and over again.
> 
> That is why I ensure a separation membrane of the Ice and Water Shield between any aluminum flashings and masonry structures.
> ...


Ahh, interesting. Hopefully I'll be alright if I skip that step. Other than than, does anything need to go in between the flashing and the chimney to prevent leaks? Is the flashing physically attached to the chimney or does it just rest against it?

Gracias.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> As a home owner installing a roof on your personal home, you are not bound by law to follow nor meet OSHA rules & regulations,
> but I can not, will not comment on how to work a steeper roof with only one set of roof jacks set up across the bottom, thus I strongly suggest spending the additional monies for more roof jacks.
> Find your local shingle supply house, maybe an ABC Supply, they will normally have better deals price wize on roof jacks, etc., than what lowes will.


Just a couple more for questions for you...should be starting tomorrow morning if all goes as planned.

I think I will go ahead and purchase another few sets of roof jacks. $80 or so is nothing compared to what could happen. You said to attach with 16p spikes? These are different from 16d common nails?

For the anchors for the roofing harness, would several 3" drywall screws be sufficient to hold it in? The instructions say to use #8 2" wood screws, but in my experience, those can snap off if a proper pilot hole is not drilled. Drywall screws, on the other hand, always go right in.

Do the vertical starter strips on the rake edges need to overlap each other by 5" or so?

Are the drips nailed on from the top (shingle side) or from the side, or both?

I like your idea of doing one 4' strip at a time, but it seems like that would make the tear off above more difficult. I would have nails and old shingles sliding down and getting on my new shingles and/or felt paper, possibly tearing the felt paper if there aren't shingles covering it. Or would it not be much of an issue?

Thanks again!


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Screws do not have the shear strength as nails.

Use 16 d nails for the bracket for the safety harness and also the roof cleats or brackets. 2" x 6" are the safest and easiest to maneuver around the roof. Do not use the 2" x 4"s. They are unsafe, especially if there is a knot in the lumber.

Get the safety harness that goes around your legs and your upper torso around your shoulders and not one that is just a belt harness.

I want to compliment Sly for the very comprehensive responses made in this thread so far and the accurateness of them also.

Ed


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I've seen drywall & other screws snap fairly easily

I need to add a good safety harness to my tool supply
I used a belt only harness roofing the front of my addition
But I need to roof the back & then (wood) shingle the side - 3 floors

Is there a specific Mfg or design that is better?
I've seen the D-rings at the sides. and others have them in the middle - front & back


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Screws do not have the shear strength as nails.
> 
> Use 16 d nails for the bracket for the safety harness and also the roof cleats or brackets. 2" x 6" are the safest and easiest to maneuver around the roof. Do not use the 2" x 4"s. They are unsafe, especially if there is a knot in the lumber.
> 
> ...


I picked up a full 5-point safety harness "kit" made by AO Safety at Lowe's for $128. 

The brackets I bought accept 2x6's, which I plan to use. While I agree with you that screws do not have near the same shear strength as nails, they do have more "pull out" resistance. I definitely plan to use nails for the roof jack brackets, which would experience a huge shear stress if they suddenly had to stop a falling person, hence the need for the stronger nails.

But as far as the roof anchor for the harness placed at the peak of the roof, it seems that if I were to fall, the rope would tend to pull the anchor off of the roof, rather than give a shearing sideways force. Nails might pull out too easily. The directions for the harness also specify screws, and the directions for the roof jacks specify nails, which made sense to me.

I am obviously not an experienced roofer, and am not saying I know best. That is just my engineering side examining the forces that will be at play if something were to happen, and trying to do what seems the safest to me. Feel free to correct me if my reasoning is off.

And yes, kudos to Slyfox. He has helped me out tremendously thus far.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Nope, follow the Manufacturers Recommendations.

Remember though, that the pull on the hold down bracket does not exert an upward force, but rather a shearing side-ways force, when the person slips and falls, resulting in a sharp and sudden tug through the rope to the clamp attached to the fasteners holding the clamping bracket in place.

Ed

















P.S.
Plus, if you do follow the manufacturers recommendations and something does happen, (God Forbid), then you would have additional recourse against the, or at least your surving family members would.




.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> Just a couple more for questions for you...should be starting tomorrow morning if all goes as planned.
> 
> I think I will go ahead and purchase another few sets of roof jacks. $80 or so is nothing compared to what could happen. You said to attach with 16p spikes? These are different from 16d common nails?
> 
> ...


Your welcome.
Hope all goe's well Sir.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Nope, follow the Manufacturers Recommendations.
> 
> Remember though, that the pull on the hold down bracket does not exert an upward force, but rather a shearing side-ways force, when the person slips and falls, resulting in a sharp and sudden tug through the rope to the clamp attached to the fasteners holding the clamping bracket in place.
> 
> Ed


Yeah I guess the rope would be pulling down along the slope of the roof, which would give it that sideways force. I'll just give it a lot of screws. There are 16 holes on each side of the bracket, and the instructions say to put a screw in each one of them!


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Let us know how it goes. 

If we don't hear back from ya later on, we'll know not to use screws.  J/K

Good luck and give 'er.............


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Your welcome.
> Hope all goes well Sir.


It is raining right now so it doesn't look like I'll be starting this today. Actually it is supposed to rain tomorrow as well so I may not be able to start until Friday.

I take it from your response that the tar paper is rather slippery/difficult to walk on? 

To clarify on installing the box vents, I would wait until my bottom course of shingles is up to where the box vent would go. Then cut the hole and install the vent so that it overlaps the shingles, then install the shingles along the sides and above so that they are on top of the edges of the box vent? Right?

The only thing I'm still a little unsure of is the chimney step flashing. Should I go with pre-bent or not? Also, it looks like I need two longer pieces of flashing for the top and bottom (horizontal) edges of the chimney, is that right? Does the flashing need to be nailed/screwed to the brick, or only nailed to the roof, with the exposed edge on the chimney then being caulked? And last, I've read of adding a piece that goes behind the upper most part of the chimney, to prevent water from pooling up there. Is this something I should do?

Thanks a million!


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> It is raining right now so it doesn't look like I'll be starting this today. Actually it is supposed to rain tomorrow as well so I may not be able to start until Friday.
> 
> I take it from your response that the tar paper is rather slippery/difficult to walk on?
> 
> ...


I'll type more on counter flashing later, you want to make sure I'm clear on the sub flashing first.
Tools for a solid counter flashing:
Hand held grinder to cut into the brick,
Mason nails, probably 1 1/4",
Caulking, metal caulking, not gutter sealant or roof cement.
A heavy hammer, framing hammers work well, but any 18 0z or heavier hammer is fine.

Keep in mind my mentioning the nailer strip on the shingles, all your fasteners in the field should be on that line.

Only open up a bundle or two of shingles at a time and install all opened shingles before taking a break or quitting for the day.
Shingles left opened in the heat of the day will become many times hotter than when there in the wrapper and be more prone to scarring as your working on them, plus possibly stick together before installed.

Keep your work area cleaned all the time, your work area is the roof deck, the roof jack's n planks and the area of the ground around the feet of your ladder.

P.S It's better to have to wait a month to get good weather, than to get half way through your project and get caught in storms with unprotected roof deck.
Plus don't forget about the option of calling a day labor service, I have used them before when we needed additional short term helpers and have ended up with some pretty decent workers on more than one occasion.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I'll type more on counter flashing later, you want to make sure I'm clear on the sub flashing first.
> Tools for a solid counter flashing:
> Hand held grinder to cut into the brick,
> Mason nails, probably 1 1/4",
> ...


I wasn't aware that there are two types of flashing, sub and counter. Thanks for pointing that out.

Could you please clarify what you mean by the following statement. It seems like you're telling me not to put any nails on, but then say to put nails on 1" from the edge:

"You want -0- nails in the L flashing field, nail roughly 1" in from the edges."

Also, I thought that the visible part of the step flashing ran in horizontal "steps" up the chimney. It seems like if I put in the step flashing, the exposed sections on the brick would be running parallel to the roof slope, and not horizontal. Is this what the counter flashing is for?

Thanks!


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

*Starter confusion*

Since I couldn't do much today because of the rain, I figured I'd at least cut all of my starters and get them ready. Well, you mentioned flipping the dimensionals upside down and cutting along the line where the two halves meet. But you also said (in another post) to lay the starters with the self-sealing strip facing up. If I cut along the line on the bottom, then I am cutting the self-sealing strip off. I would have to cut along the "dashed line" on the top in order to keep the self-sealing strip. Then the small portion with the self-sealing strip would be twice as thick as the rest of the starter. Which should I do? And if I am to keep the strip, should I apply the starter so that the strip is at the top or bottom? I would think bottom, but then the exposed edge will not be a nice clean cut, it will be the cut I made with the knife.

Also, the bottom edges of all the main shingles will be glued to the shingles below because of the self-sealing strip. But the starters and the first course of shingles will have nothing holding the bottoms down. Should I shoot in some roof tar to hold them down?

Thanks!


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I use 3 tab shingles for my starter course
So far I have had some left over from other roofs
On my current roof I need 8 starter strips on each side = 16 pieces. A bundle usually has 25 pieces


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Cut them where the two laminates meet and use the single layer.

What kind of shingles are they with the tar strip on the face?

I wouldn't worry about sealing the bottom row. It's a good idea, but roofs were put on for many years without sealing the bottom row to the starter.

3 tabs work good, but it's easier using a shingle the same size as the starter. All the laminates I know of are metric here, but could be english in your area (36"). 3 tabs work the best if you cut the tabs off and put the tar strip at the bottom.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My older shingles from GAF (07) had the tar strip on the face
Now its on the back side at the bottom edge of the shingle
Sucks cause I like to have the shingles face up with architect series
Much easier to put them down when you can see the pattern


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> Cut them where the two laminates meet and use the single layer.
> 
> What kind of shingles are they with the tar strip on the face?
> 
> ...


My new shingles are dimensionals, BP brand. They are 14" high by 40" wide. The tar strip I'm referring to is actually just 8 or 10 dabs of adhesive along the nail line, I guess to help hold down the next shingle. There is another sort of "strip" on the other side, along the middle. But this strip is covered with a layer of clear tape and it says "do not remove this tape" so I'm not sure what that is for.


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

That tape it to prevent them from sticking together in the bundle.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> That tape it to prevent them from sticking together in the bundle.


So are you saying the tape should be removed before installing the shingles?


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Yep, every one. 

Go look at them again.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> Yep, every one.
> 
> Go look at them again.


But why would it say "do not remove" right on the shingle? And it is fairly difficult to remove the tape and it comes off in random, sometimes small pieces, which would make it take even longer to remove.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

He is kidding you, hence the "Winking" Smiley.

Leave the cellophane tape strip on and olnly remove any straggling pieces that float out of the shingles on occassion.

They do not harm anything, nor prevent any sealing where they are postitioned, when the shingles are installed at the right exposure.

Did you ever hear back from that roofer again?

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> He is kidding you, hence the "Winking" Smiley.
> 
> Did you ever hear back from that roofer again?
> 
> Ed


Ahh ok...I was gonna say...

The roofer has made no attempt to contact me, nor has he answered or returned my phone calls. I filed a police report today, and the police officer called him. He picked up the phone this time, and tried to get me to give him one more chance and said he'd come out Friday morning. I told him he lost his chance and that I had made other arrangements. I told him I wanted my $400 deposit back. He refused, stating that we were in a "contract" since I signed an estimate he wrote up. He threatened to take me to court, and said that even if I had someone else (or myself) do the roof, I would still have to pay him the remaining $1200 as stated in our "contract". Ha. I'd like to see that happen. It wasn't really a contract anyways, and he broke it by not finishing (or even starting) the job when he said he would.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Send him a certified letter, return receipt requested, detailing the failure of him to comply with the contract and broken promises to show up.

This way, you create an authentic legal paper trail if and when this matter ever goes to court, or even the threat of court.

He will find out that it will cost him much more than $400.00 to defend his position, right or wrong.

Ed


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> I wasn't aware that there are two types of flashing, sub and counter. Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> Could you please clarify what you mean by the following statement. It seems like you're telling me not to put any nails on, but then say to put nails on 1" from the edge:
> 
> ...


Sorry, I did word that pretty bad.
When you set your L flashing, you will nail across the top 'on roof deck' roughly one inch from the edge.
on the side of the L flashing you will do the same but you can not go all the way down to the chimney, it's hard to say exactly how close or far from the chimney your nails should be with out a visual/picture.
if your L flashing 'roof deck part only' is 18' by 22" the first inch in is the nail strip, the rest of it is what i called the field, the less nails in the field, the less risk of leakage in that area.

I spoke of two different methods for cutting your own starters because I was using 3-tabs in one example and laminates in another.
On your shingles, you will turn them over with the face of the shingle down and cut along the line where they are laminated together.

Step flashing's should be bent to where there's roughly 3" - 4" of each piece running up the chimney, the same or more running onto the roof deck and be at least 1" longer than the non exposed section of your shingle is high.
If your shingle is 14" high, and 5" is exposed, than 9" is not exposed, thus your step flashing's would be at least 10" long.
The part on the roof deck will be covered by shingle, the part going up the wall will be covered by counter flashing.

Another piece of prep work for you would be to go on line to the manufacturers website 'google it' and read up on installment procedures.
They will not only show spec's about fasteners, but also about flashing's, course adjustments, etc.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Send him a certified letter, return receipt requested, detailing the failure of him to comply with the contract and broken promises to show up.
> 
> This way, you create an authentic legal paper trail if and when this matter ever goes to court, or even the threat of court.
> 
> ...


In Ohio a signed proposal is a binding contract, assuming you
'the home owner' signed it.
Thus you probably should do like Ed suggest in case the roofer pushes the issue, because if he/she shows reasonable cause 'weather, family death,
hurt his/her back at work, entire crew quit, etc., etc., he/she could be rewarded the remaining monies owed 'according to the signed proposal'.

Another avenue would be to renegotiate, tell the roofer your going to tear the existing off now that your all hyped to doing so and have him/her come in and install the new.
You may even end up selling all those roof jack's 'that you'll not need again' to the roofer.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Just to speak more about the legal issues,
I was under the impression you had hired some week end warrior/fly by nite,
that you would not hear from again.

If you 'home owner' signed the roofers written estimate/proposal,
you are bound to that contract.
If money exchanged hands but there was no signature, than maybe you are, maybe you are not.

The re-roof I was supposed to start this am has been delayed due to weather, I all ready spoke with the home owner, have spoken with her three times this week.
The only contract I have with her is a signed proposal, that proposal became a contracted agreement the second she 'home owner' placed her signature on the piece of paper.

I always inform people up front 'home owners or contractors' that my schedule revolves around the weather.
I agree to start your job on the first of July, than I miss 6 days work the last two weeks of June, than your start date would be the seventh of July.
I would call to confirm that with you rather than assuming you will know that by our conversation during the estimate/signing meeting,
but even if I did assume, rather than calling to confirm, our contract would still be in tact.
The Judge would laugh at me for assuming, but once I produced a dozen signed letters from home owners and contractors with them confirming that I always am very informative about the weather and it's possibly delaying the start time of work, He would side with me.

I'm not trying to say the roofer had a legit reason for not calling to let you know why he/she was not going to be there on schedule.

I'm just saying, OJ is in prison for beating up and threatening some dude,
not for murdering his wife and her friend.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

I sent the roofer the below certified letter. I had it notarized as well. What do you guys think?

_Mr. Gibson,_

_This letter is to serve as official notice that the contract to complete our roofing job, at (address removed), signed by you and myself, has been broken by you and is now null and void. _
_
We feel that you have had more than a reasonable amount of time to complete the work which you promised to do, including numerous days where the weather was ideal for a roofing job. Your attitude regarding the matter, which is very unprofessional and inconsiderate, has forced us to make other arrangements to complete our roofing job. There have been multiple times when you did not show up at all, and did not even bother to call and explain why you did not show up. Specifically, and most notably, I met you on 6/2/09 and gave you a $400 deposit towards our roofing job. You promised to begin work on 6/5/09, weather permitting. The weather was favorable to start the job that day, yet you did not show up, or even bother to call us or return our calls. Once I finally was able to reach you late that evening, you gave another mediocre excuse as to why you didn’t show, and asked to begin the job the next day. You then proceeded to not show up two more times, which is more than I am willing to put up with. I do not have time to wait around for you to do the roof whenever it is convenient for you. In addition to you breaking our contract, your behavior in this matter has given me reason to significantly doubt the quality of your character, and I no longer wish to do business with you._
_
I have asked for our $400 deposit back, which you refused. I even offered to allow you to keep $100 of the deposit for your trouble, which you again refused. We plan to take legal action to recuperate our loss, if an agreement cannot be reached._


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

With all due respect......it's only been 9 days and you haven't started yet either.

You don't have to "wait around" for a contractor. He doesn't 'have' to do the job. You hired him, but you are not his boss persay, meaning you are not paying him by the hour. There is a big difference when hiring a contractor and buying a hamburger. This is why we never guarantee any times of when we will be there and when we will be done.

I'm sorry sir, but only 9 days....I would gladly give your money back and go to the next job.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Sorry, I did word that pretty bad.
> When you set your L flashing, you will nail across the top 'on roof deck' roughly one inch from the edge.
> on the side of the L flashing you will do the same but you can not go all the way down to the chimney, it's hard to say exactly how close or far from the chimney your nails should be with out a visual/picture.
> if your L flashing 'roof deck part only' is 18' by 22" the first inch in is the nail strip, the rest of it is what i called the field, the less nails in the field, the less risk of leakage in that area.
> ...


My shingles are 14" high, with 6" exposed and 8" unexposed. So I will need flashing at least 9" long? I will have to return what I bought then because what I bought is 5" by 7". Do I bend the flashing on the short axis or the longer axis?

I'm not really sure about the L flashing, but I will look at the Depot tonight to see what they have. Is that stuff sold in one big piece, like 2 feet by 3 feet? Also I guess I still need the counter flashing...

Rain today and yesterday, so now tomorrow is the big day...


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> With all due respect......it's only been 9 days and you haven't started yet either.
> 
> You don't have to "wait around" for a contractor. He doesn't 'have' to do the job. You hired him, but you are not his boss persay, meaning you are not paying him by the hour. There is a big difference when hiring a contractor and buying a hamburger. This is why we never guarantee any times of when we will be there and when we will be done.
> 
> I'm sorry sir, but only 9 days....I would gladly give your money back and go to the next job.


This deal has been in the works much longer than 9 days, I just happened to give him the deposit 9 days ago. And as long as he has my deposit, I do have to wait around on him and he does have to do the job, unless he gives it back, which he is now refusing. The weather has been great for him to start when he said he would, or even a week or so later. I couldn't possibly have started myself until Wednesday, because I was waiting for my school quarter to be over, and also I was trying to gather the tools, materials, and knowledge. It rained Weds and today. I will start tomorrow.

I understand that you might be a contractor yourself, but still can't believe that you are siding with this guy. I guess you never met him though and don't see him like I do.


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

On the net, it is very tough to get the full story and specifics. I apologize........but

A contractor, or anyone you hire does NOT have to do the work, unless he gave you a set date. Then, that is his own fault for not being a good business man.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> On the net, it is very tough to get the full story and specifics. I apologize........but
> 
> A contractor, or anyone you hire does NOT have to do the work, unless he gave you a set date. Then, that is his own fault for not being a good business man.


Initially (before I gave him the deposit), he was bad about keeping his word about when he would come over. When I gave him the deposit, I made him sign a contract with a set start date (with the only exception being if it rained). He was ok with this and signed it and continued to not show up and not call, as he did before I gave him the deposit, which made me start to think otherwise of him.

The only reason that I felt that he HAD to do the work was because I gave him a deposit and he promised a certain date. If I hadn't given him the deposit, I would have just moved on...


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> My shingles are 14" high, with 6" exposed and 8" unexposed. So I will need flashing at least 9" long? I will have to return what I bought then because what I bought is 5" by 7". Do I bend the flashing on the short axis or the longer axis?
> 
> Yes, 5x7's are what we use on standard shingles with '12" high' and you bend them on the long axis.
> 
> ...


Yes Lowes, Home Depot and Most lumber yards will have what you need.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I to should be offering an apology here, to both Ed and MJW as well as to you 
dc4nomore.
I should not have judged/assumed the roofer you are dealing with was a hack/flybinite and should have waited to respond with tips on installation procedures until that situation was settled,
which after re-reading your first post I thought it was.

The roofer at best was unprofessional in how he handle things,
but with out speaking to him neither I nor anyone else here should judge him beyond the unprofessional comments, 
which no personal or work related circumstances I can think of would excuse the fact that he not only did not call you but did not respond to your calling him until after multiple attempts.

God rules in black & white, we humans live in shades of gray.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Yes Lowes, Home Depot and Most lumber yards will have what you need.


Ok I bought some 10, 14, and 20 inch roll flashing. It is much cheaper than the pre-cut pieces.

Slyfox, you mentioned that you were going to add more on counter flashing when you got a chance? I understand that this goes on after the shingles (I think), so if you could fill me in on that in the next day or so, or whenever you have time, I'd appreciate it.

Now the weathermen are calling for a 30% chance of rain tomorrow. I cannot afford to lose this weekend, so I am going to start anyways, and have tarps ready if I need to cover up quickly.

Thanks again, as always.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I to should be offering an apology here, to both Ed and MJW as well as to you
> dc4nomore.
> I should not have judged/assumed the roofer you are dealing with was a hack/flybinite and should have waited to respond with tips on installation procedures until that situation was settled,
> which after re-reading your first post I thought it was.
> ...


I've never heard the terms hack or flybinite used to describe someone, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think I have an idea. 

The guy that I dealt with is not at all a "professional" roofer, but seems more like a guy who does roofing often, but more on a weekend, under-the-table kind of thing.

I'm not entirely sure of everyone's (sylfox, ed, and MJW) opinion here, and realize that there may be a "stick together" mentality among people of the same trade, but I certainly did not intend to and hope I did not offend anyone here with my comments regarding the roofer I dealt with. I sincerely apologize if I did.

I thought 100% that this guy was trying to rip me off until he answered the phone when the police officer called him. I'm not sure I even believe him now and think he may have just been saying he intended to do the job, simply because it was a cop who called him. But regardless, I am very thankful that you all DID respond with such informative and helpful comments, especially slyfox. Otherwise, I may not have gained the confidence to attempt this job myself. I actually wish I had come here first, then maybe I would have just done the job myself without ever getting any local roofers involved.

Now it's off to bed...I've got to get up early in the morning. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I have never installed roofs in that area, but, johnk and a few others who have speak of Malarky and IKO.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> I've never heard the terms hack or flybinite used to describe someone, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think I have an idea.
> 
> The guy that I dealt with is not at all a "professional" roofer, but seems more like a guy who does roofing often, but more on a weekend, under-the-table kind of thing.
> 
> ...


There's no 'blue wall' here sir,
I just realized i had started helping you before you had actually terminated your contract with the roofer.

Hope all went well today, if you did get the hole day in,
jump in the shower starting out with luke warm water and rinse down real good, than make it hotter, you get those pores opened up and cleaned of all that roof dust.
Drink lots of water during the day and never drink milk or any dairy products while your working on the roof, that includes no mayo on your sandwiches at lunch.
Dairy products in your stomach will actually curl and spoil inside you after you eat them and spend a few hours on the really hot roof.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My roof at the old house had 5 layers on it
Ripping that off was not fun - very hot
I used to freeze 1/3 of a 2l bottle filled with water
Then I would add water to it & bring it up on the roof
I would go thru a couple bottles a day - some just to wet my hair/cool off

Becoming dehyrated can be a big problem
As can too much sun


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> There's no 'blue wall' here sir,
> I just realized i had started helping you before you had actually terminated your contract with the roofer.
> 
> Hope all went well today, if you did get the hole day in,
> ...


Well I just don't want you to feel bad for helping me "too soon." I didn't even know I was in a contract really, and honestly thought the guy was bailing on me.

This morning was raining slightly. It was wet until early afternoon, so I wasn't able to get started until close to 4pm. My dad and a friend of mine came over to help. We got one side of the roof completely stripped and free of old nails, and brushed clean. That took us until 8pm. Then we cleaned up a bit and they left and I spent two hours in the dark trying to cover the roof with tarps. That was tough, and probably a little dangerous. Then I had to make sure all the tools/ladders were brought inside and I just now got out of the shower. I'm exhausted. It was definitely a lot of work.

Tomorrow it is only supposed to be nice until early afternoon, so I first I have to take all the old shingles to a landfill and dump them. We'll have to manually unload a trailer full so that will take a little bit of time. Then hopefully I can replace a few broken boards, add nails to all of the existing 1x6's (many are loose), and finally get the felt paper down. And of course I'll have to cover with tarps again just to be safe. Rain Saturday night but Sunday is supposed to be nice so maybe I'll be able to start shingling then.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Wow. Today I am even more exhausted than yesterday. It ended up being nice all day, so we got a lot done. We worked from about 9am to 8pm. I got all the loose boards nailed down, and several new 1x6's cut and put in (about 10) to replace broken or rotten wood. Then I took all the old flashing out. I understand now how the counter flashing goes in after looking at that. Then I got all the felt paper down and recovered with tarps. 

If tomorrow is nice we will begin with the shingle laying. I'm not sure how long that will take but hopefully we can get it done in one day.

This all of course is only on one half of the roof. I've still got to do the other half. If weather is nice, I'll start that next weekend.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Good progress
Yeah, the pros make it look easy


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Good progress
> Yeah, the pros make it look easy


Haha yes they do! But they usually show up with about 10 guys and knock the whole thing out in 2 days. If I have two people to help me with the rest, I'm thinking it will take me at least 6 days, possibly more if it takes more than one day each to lay the shingles on each side of the roof.

And I was having some major problems with my "slapstick" type stapler. I got two of them at harbor freight for $13 each, so maybe that's why. But they kept jamming and either not shooting the staples in all the way or shooting them in all kinked and crooked. I was using 1/2" staples, so for the other half I am thinking of using 3/8" staples to see if that helps. But I'm pretty sure one of my slapsticks is completely broken now. I may have to buy another one. Can anyone recommend a better/more durable one?

Thanks!


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Glad it's going good thus far, are we going to see some pictures?

You should take a couple pictures of wood replacement, felt paper installed, vents, flashing's 'pipe and chimney' and the shingles during install showing your fastening patterns, etc.
Than write down the information on the shingle wrappers,
lot#, date, which plant they came out of 'manufacturers have several plants', color, life span '25yr, 30yr, etc.' and put all the info- into a folder and keep safe, like where ever you keep your insurance documents, etc.

It's information you will need should you end up in failed roofing material situation.

Roofing material failures are the lease cause of premature failure,
"workmanship being the number one cause, weather number two"
but they do happen, thus it's better to be prepared.


We haven't spoke about proper ventilation much yet,
there are 3 steps to be taken.
1. Intake, normally in the overhang coverings.
2. Free Flow, unobstructed air flow from the eave to the ridge.
3. Exhaust, vents placed near or on the ridge.

The exhaust vents in your case,
14 square roof, gable to gable with no valleys or hips,
four box vents across the back side of the home would be the minimum,
eight would be the maximum.
They should be placed uniformly.


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Not the real pro's. We have two people, sometimes 3, and do entire jobs from roofing, to siding, to additions, garages, whatever. Crews are for wimps. 

Slyfox, you better be the finest roofer in the universe the way you always talk about workmanship. lol

You are correct though, many roofs fail because of poor quality, but the shingle itself fails because of a manufacturer problem usually. 
Any decent roofer with a good distributer should be able to find out what any manufacturer or roofing, siding, etc. The records will still be handy, just saying, it's not necessary.


----------



## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

> You should take a couple pictures of wood replacement, felt paper installed, vents, flashing's 'pipe and chimney' and the shingles during install showing your fastening patterns, etc.
> Than write down the information on the shingle wrappers,
> lot#, date, which plant they came out of 'manufacturers have several plants', color, life span '25yr, 30yr, etc.' and put all the info- into a folder and keep safe, like where ever you keep your insurance documents, etc.
> 
> It's information you will need should you end up in failed roofing material situation.


Great advice! If someone doesn't have this information saved, how would they even know what company to call if there is a problem with their shingles?


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

You hire a contractor.

For the DIY'er, it's great idea to keep those records. Most people remember what they put on, and most defects will show up within 5 years.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Most crews I have seen are around 2-4 people
Depends upon the size of the roof too
Smaller roofs 2 people can handle
But seems they work on stripping one side 1st
Then 2 people start roofing that side while the other 2 strip the other side. I've seen roofs replaced in one day


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Slyfox, you better be the finest roofer in the universe the way you always talk about workmanship. lol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LMAO, 
I look at roofers the same as roofing materials, not one is the best in all area's.
I'm as good as any, better than most.

Other than the environmental issues 'weather conditions in certain areas'.
workmanship is the only other issue to explain how one roofer would say this or that shingle is trash and can/should not be used,
and than another roofer claim those same shingles to be the best on the market.

Plus, I was a repair tech- with every company I ever worked for.
You learn a lot when repairing your own work and even more when repairing other roofers work.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

A Duo-Fast Hammer Tacker, also know as a Slap Tacker is the best one to use, in my opinion, but they cost about $30.00 each.

3/8" staples work best for the felt paper.

If you have Menards stores by you, they carry the Duo-Fast.

Arrow brand would be the next best recommendation, but much farther down the scale, in my opinion.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Glad it's going good thus far, are we going to see some pictures?
> 
> You should take a couple pictures of wood replacement, felt paper installed, vents, flashing's 'pipe and chimney' and the shingles during install showing your fastening patterns, etc.
> Than write down the information on the shingle wrappers,
> ...


I'll try to get some pictures on here soon. I tried to get my girlfriend to snap a few pics while we were working over the weekend, but am not sure of the quality or quantity of pics that she took. It is supposed to rain ALL week, so I'll take a look at them soon and see what I've got.

About the ventilation, I currently don't have any at all. I am installing 4 box vents on one side and plan to add some intake vents under the eaves sometime after the rest of the roof is finished.

That's a good idea about keeping records for the warranty and what not. Thanks.

The roof was going well, but now it's taken a bit of a turn. First, we were working on Sunday and it started raining on us. So in addition to frantically trying to get all the tools and loose shingles inside, I had to scramble all over the wet roof trying to get tarps put down. I slipped because it was wet and almost fell off. The wind was incredibly strong and threatened to pull all the tarps off, so I had to nail them down everywhere, including over the newly installed shingles in some areas. And I've got 2.5 and 5 pound weights hanging on bungees from the tarp grommets all around the house. It looks ridiculous.

Not to mention I had my a few people helping me install shingles that day, and they messed a lot of stuff up by laying shingles crooked or not staggering them. So I had to rip all those off.

And I tried to get a couple hours of roofing in after work today, but I noticed that a couple of boards on the deck had been completely snapped in half, under a row of new shingles. So now I have to tear that whole corner of shingles off, the drip edge, and the felt paper so I can cut out and replace those boards. Then redo it all again. Fantastic.


I do have a couple install questions...

If there are extra holes in a shingle (from removing a nail or whatnot), do you have to worry about sealing them as long as they are underneath the shingle above?

I've got 1x6 planks for the deck, and very often it seems like when I put the nails in, they are hitting nothing at all (likely a seam in between the planks). In this case, it is ok to move the nail upwards off of the nailing strip?


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> A Duo-Fast Hammer Tacker, also know as a Slap Tacker is the best one to use, in my opinion, but they cost about $30.00 each.
> 
> 3/8" staples work best for the felt paper.
> 
> ...


Ok I'll definitely go with 3/8" for the other side. 

We don't have a Menard's around here, and I haven't seen the Duo-Fast. I have seen the Arrow one, but even it was $30, and it looks absolutely identical to my harbor freight one. I will definitely have to get something though because the cheap ones I've got just don't cut it.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I used to have the same problems with the Arrows as you are having with the Harbor Freight.

Is their an ABC Supply in your area? They carry the Duo-Fast also. Make sure you buy their brand of staples too.

The Bostich Slap tackers are probably the best, but those things cost over $50.00 each and use a staple shaped like a gabled house and cost a lot more too.

Per your questions to Sly, yes you should insert some roofing sealant into the holes, even if they are covered by the succeeding course of shingles, due to wind blowing rain upwards on the roof and under the tabs.

Also, yes it is okay to adjust the nailing position so that you do not wind up in the gap between the two plank boards.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I used to have the same problems with the Arrows as you are having with the Harbor Freight.
> 
> Is their an ABC Supply in your area? They carry the Duo-Fast also. Make sure you buy their brand of staples too.
> 
> ...


I googled it and I guess there is an ABC supply near me. I will check them out when I get a chance. Thanks for the tip on that.

And I wasn't necessarily directing those questions at Sly only...and since you went ahead and answered, that takes care of that. It will take longer to seal the holes, but as long as it does a better job, I'm all for it. Thanks.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

I was hoping Ed or MJW would answer your staple questions because I do not use them, I hand nail everything, including the felt with either roofing hand nails or cap nails so I knew they would give a better answer.

Ed's correct about using roof cement to cover the old nail holes in the shingles you pulled up.
You also need to apply roof cement on the self sealing strip if it was damaged when you pulled them up, some times they rip and leave fibers from the interior felts showing and they will prevent the shingle from properly sealing.

Always use roof cement when your sealing the shingles, it's made up of the same materials and will allow a bonding seal,
metal, concrete, gutters, etc., will require a different type of caulking.

Measure down from the ridge of the roof to the top of your highest installed shingle, than go to the other end of the roof and measure down and mark it, than using a chalk line snap a line from those two points.
That line will be a guide while your straightening your shingle courses out,
meaning you'll want the shingles at the other end to end up on or very close to that line.

You never want to run your shingles high, do what you have to running them low to get them back on course.
The lower you run a course the easier you'll be able to see it from the ground, thus, take your time and keep them as close to the notches / guide strip as possible.

When you get those nails that hit the gap between boards, pull them out or leave them but cover them with roof cement either way,
the heat over the years will actually suck them upward creating a pop up,
a pop up will not leak more often than it will but they will leak on driving rains and snow/ice back ups.
plus that dab of roof cement will help against wind lift which sometimes can be an issue when you nail above the nail strip.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> You also need to apply roof cement on the self sealing strip if it was damaged when you pulled them up, some times they rip and leave fibers from the interior felts showing and they will prevent the shingle from properly sealing.


So that strip on the back side with the cellophane on it, is actually a self sealing strip? Does the cellophane melt into the tar when it heats up? So then I suppose on the starters, they are supposed to be installed with the strip towards bottom? Yeah...I installed it towards the top. I'll just dab a little cement in there along the edge...


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

This is getting a little out of hand with the "sealing" and roof cement. We have done thousands of square in the past and never even brought out the caulking gun. Do what you want, but I just had to say that.........don't worry too much. If it is steep enough to need roof jacks, you won't have any problems with a tiny nail hole.

The plastic cellophane strip is only for one thing that I mentioned way back in this thread.........it's purpose is to prevent the shingles from sticking together in the bundle.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

MJW said:


> This is getting a little out of hand with the "sealing" and roof cement. We have done thousands of square in the past and never even brought out the caulking gun. Do what you want, but I just had to say that.........don't worry too much. If it is steep enough to need roof jacks, you won't have any problems with a tiny nail hole.
> 
> The plastic cellophane strip is only for one thing that I mentioned way back in this thread.........it's purpose is to prevent the shingles from sticking together in the bundle.


I don't carry roof cement of a shingle roof either, but I don't tear badly installed shingles off and re-use them either tho, nor do I install more than a few nails into gaps because once you have one nail hit a gap you know that course will be a lil high all the way across that section.
The talk about roof cement is to re seal shingles that he has torn off and is going to re-use and if the sealer strip was damaged when he pulled them up than that surely should be resealed also, but only if it was damaged.

Were not helping a newbie roofer out here, were helping a home owner that is doing this for the very first time, thus all precautions should be taken to make sure he provides himself and his family with a secure roof over their heads.

I would have done several things differently than how I told him to do them, but I have been doing this type of work for a few years as a teen and all of my adult life.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

dc4nomore said:


> Slyfox said:
> 
> 
> > You also need to apply roof cement on the self sealing strip if it was damaged when you pulled them up, some times they rip and leave fibers from the interior felts showing and they will prevent the shingle from properly sealing.[\quote]
> ...


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> This is getting a little out of hand with the "sealing" and roof cement. We have done thousands of square in the past and never even brought out the caulking gun. Do what you want, but I just had to say that.........don't worry too much. If it is steep enough to need roof jacks, you won't have any problems with a tiny nail hole.
> 
> The plastic cellophane strip is only for one thing that I mentioned way back in this thread.........it's purpose is to prevent the shingles from sticking together in the bundle.


I understand the cellophane's purpose now. I didn't fully when you first mentioned it, but after I looked at how the shingles were stacked in the package, it made sense. They are laid alternating in the package (forwards, backwards, forwards, backwards, etc.) and the cellophane rests right on the tar strip (along the nailing strip) that is on top of the shingle below, if that makes sense. I looked at some shingles at home depot tonight, and the strips on those are not in the same locations as mine, so hopefully you understand how mine is, from my description.

But I was wondering what happens to the cellophane. I figured it has to melt into the tar, because if it didn't, obviously there would be no adhesion between the two shingles.

Maybe the roof cement isn't necessary, and it probably isn't, but I'd sure feel like an idiot if I finish this roof and some shingles blow off in the near future, or if it starts leaking somewhere. I'd rather take a little more time now and throw some in here and there to be that much more confident that something won't go wrong in the future. I'm not planning on going crazy or anything with it, but maybe put some on the holes on the shingles that had to be removed and reinstalled, and maybe along the bottom edge, but we'll see.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Were not helping a newbie roofer out here, were helping a home owner that is doing this for the very first time, thus all precautions should be taken to make sure he provides himself and his family with a secure roof over their heads.


I appreciate the way you are looking at this Slyfox. Roofing is just like anything else I'd imagine, you take your time and are extra cautious at first, but once you gain some confidence, you can fly through it and skip some of the "unnecessary" steps.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

If you were just fixing one or only a few shingles and it was cold at the time of application, I would say go ahead with the dime sized dollup of roofing cement that comes in a 10 oz. tube gun gradable for usage in a caulking gun.

But, if you are replacing more than a few, which you are, do NOT install the dollup of roofing cement.

A. You will make a mess out of the new roof.

B. If you use too much roofing cement, the solvents contained within "May" deteriorate through the asphalt shingle.

C. The shingles will self seal down all on their own in a matter of days, if not hours if the temperatures are normal summer degrees and the sun is hitting them directly for ANY period of time.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Yes it is a sealer strip, but when laying your starters the granule side goe's up, that will seal against the first shingle installed over it.


I thought I had this figured out Sly, but you saying this sounds like you're saying it because I did something wrong. The cellophane strip on my shingles is on the bottom face, along the middle. When the starter is cut, the strip is now along the bottom edge of the bottom face. You say the granule side goes up, so the top face faces the sky (just like the rest of the shingles), and the cellophane strip faces the decking. But which edge would the cellophane go on, the top (ridge edge) or the bottom (eave edge)? I would think the bottom. I don't know, maybe this is confusing me because like I said in a post or so above, the strip locations on my shingles do not match the locations of some shingles I looked at at Home Depot. Or maybe are you saying that the granules of the lower shingle will seal automatically (with heat, of course) to the underside of the shingle above, without the need for a tar strip?

I think part of the confusion (for me at least) is that there are two tops and two bottoms on each shingle, and I might be using them interchangeably without realizing it. By two tops and two bottoms I mean the top edge that goes towards the ridge, and the top face which faces towards the sky, and then the bottom edge that goes towards the eave, and the bottom face which faces the deck.

I apologize for my stupidity. :wallbash:


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> C. The shingles will self seal down all on their own in a matter of days, if not hours if the temperatures are normal summer degrees and the sun is hitting them directly for ANY period of time.
> 
> Ed


Kind of similar to the question I just asked Sly, but are you saying that the shingles heat up so much that they will seal to themselves everywhere, regardless of where the tar strips are? Or do they only seal where there is a tar strip?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Actual Starter Strip Shingle Installed On Top Of Ice And Water Shield, Which Is Installed On Top Of Gutter Apron Drip Edge Metal.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

I can't really see for sure, but in that pic, is there a tar strip on the starter, facing upwards and on the edge closest to the gutter?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Yes it is, but here is a more close up view looking straight down at it.

Ed


----------



## Suzuki91vx800 (Jun 18, 2009)

This is an awesome thread!!! so much information here sly,ed,and mjw you guys are so gracious to share so much of your knowledge, I want to go rip my roof off now just to do it lol but it dont need it yet. you guys are truly greate men for sharing your livelihood without expecting anything in return.
and I would like to see some pics..


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks for the kind words Suzuki. 


Ed, you aren't taking credit for those pics are you????? With the grace under the drip and shingles nailed way too high..........

dc4nomore, the strip is on the granule side, right? I think Sly was a little confused. The strip and granules should face the sky on the starter and the plastic strip should be on the ridge side. The tar won't stick to that strip.
On the rest of the roof, don't worry about it. The plastic strip is not in line with the tar strip.....only when stacked in the bundle like you already have noticed.


----------



## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

MJW said:


> Thanks for the kind words Suzuki.
> 
> 
> Ed, you aren't taking credit for those pics are you????? With the grace under the drip and shingles nailed way too high..........
> ...


Your right, He was talking about one thing and I was talking about another.
do it how the picture above shows 'except don't nail high :huh: ' which is how MJW just explained it.
Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The Ice and Water Shield is folded down onto the top portion of the fascia board behind the gutter and the nails are in the correct location on those shingles.

That white spot that is higher is either a bird dropping or some other discoloration. I have other photos of that job that show the nails continuously in alignment right at the guage setting all the way across the roof that I also noticed when I was looking for these pictures.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

My shingles do not look like the shingles in those pictures.

On the granule, or sky side, my shingles have a "dashed" tar strip right along the nail strip. I say "dashed" because it is not continuous, to allow for nails, without having to nail into the tar.

On the reverse, or decking side, there is the cellophane strip running the length very close to the mid line of the shingle, with what appears to be a tar strip underneath the cellophane (but I may be mistaken on the apparent tar strip underneath).

When I made my starters, I flipped the shingles over and cut along the cellophane strip, right where the two pieces are laminated together. Doing so cut off the "dimensional" part of the shingle as well as the nailing strip (with the tar strip on it). Therefore, my starters have no tar strip at all on the granule side. The only "strip" is the cellophane strip on the "decking" side. Because of where I made the cut, the cellophane strip is all the way towards one edge of the shingle. I installed the starters with this strip facing the deck, and on the edge towards the ridge, not the eave.

Did I do this wrong? It may not be worth it to redo what I've done already but I'd sure like to do it properly when I start the other side of the house.

I know pics would help tremendously and I will try to get them on soon, but for right now I've got to go to a wedding.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

They actually sell both a 5" and a 7" width by 3 foot long pre-cut starter strip shingle to be used, or alternatively, you can use a standard 3-tab shingle and cut off the tabs with a straight edge and install them with the tar strip closest to the gutter eave edge.

Many people do not cut off the tabs and just flip the 3-tab shingle upside down, but the problem with that, is that the tar strip is not at the closest point to the gutter eave edge, which they state is for better wind uplift to prevent the first course of actual field shingles from becoming detached due to wind. 

If the real field shingles are installed correctly with the correct amount of nails and in the area designated for the nail line, then that should not be a major concern.

What DIY'ers and rookies commonly make as a mistake though, is to align both the starter shingle and the field shingle, so the both side edge butt ends are exactly in alignment with each other. This is a BIG mistake, which allows water to go directly between the side end of those two stacked shingles and get to the felt paper or Ice and Water Shield and possibly, especially in cases where Ice and Water Shield is not used, deteriorate the deck sheathing and soffit and fascia wood.

Ed


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

The nails go below the tar strip line. Not in the tar strip line. Another rookie mistake that can cause blown off shingles.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ed the Roofer said:


> What DIY'ers and rookies commonly make as a mistake though, is to align both the starter shingle and the field shingle, so the both side edge butt ends are exactly in alignment with each other. This is a BIG mistake, which allows water to go directly between the side end of those two stacked shingles and get to the felt paper or Ice and Water Shield and possibly, especially in cases where Ice and Water Shield is not used, deteriorate the deck sheathing and soffit and fascia wood.
> 
> Ed


Do you mean along the 1st row of shingles?
Or at each side of the roof?
Mine are aligned at each side, but staggered along the 1st row


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Do you mean along the 1st row of shingles?
> Or at each side of the roof?
> Mine are aligned at each side, but staggered along the 1st row



I mean if you place a 3 foot wide starter strip shingle down and do not offset the end by around at least 6", then you have a field shingle side seam right on top of the starter shingle side seam, where water can go right through.

Ed


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

OK, Thanks
That's what I thought you meant

I found the gutter drip edge
So if I can only get some sunshine I can get my roof on


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> The nails go below the tar strip line. Not in the tar strip line. Another rookie mistake that can cause blown off shingles.


Well with my shingles they go ON the tar strip line, because the tar strip is ON the nail strip. That's why the tar is intermittent, so that you can pop a nail in the spots where the tar is not. I could post the directions from the package if you'd like...


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> What DIY'ers and rookies commonly make as a mistake though, is to align both the starter shingle and the field shingle, so the both side edge butt ends are exactly in alignment with each other.
> 
> Ed


I made sure to stagger mine. This is actually part of what my brother messed up, and the reason why I had to tear off some of the shingles that he installed.

I've got my fingers crossed for the weather to be good this weekend...


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

dc4nomore said:


> Well with my shingles they go ON the tar strip line, because the tar strip is ON the nail strip. That's why the tar is intermittent, so that you can pop a nail in the spots where the tar is not. I could post the directions from the package if you'd like...


Yes, I would like to see that if you don't mind.

Most of the manufacturers have a dashed tar line. The only one I know of that has a solid line is OC. It's usually made a dashed line to let water out from behind the shingle.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Just for information purposes, some shingles come with the tar strip on the underside of the shingle instead of the top granulated surface side of the shingle.

Currently several manufacturers are widening the area where they state that the nail is permissible to to be nailed.

There was a very well documented article in one of the Roofing Magazines, Professional Roofing Contractor, I believe, about 3-4 years ago, stating that nearly every single roof installed would fail if held to the tightest scrutiny of the exact preciseness of the nail location.

Therefor, several manufacturers came out with a wider "Zone" for nailing to be acceptable.

Ed


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> Yes, I would like to see that if you don't mind.
> 
> Most of the manufacturers have a dashed tar line. The only one I know of that has a solid line is OC. It's usually made a dashed line to let water out from behind the shingle.


Here you go...

"Shingles must be nailed between the adhesive to allow penetration through the double-ply area just above the tops of the laminated tabs."

Bottom of page 18 and top of page 19 on the link below:

http://www.bpcan.com/upload/products/Publications/res/apps/C_Shingle_APPLICATION_eng_(Jun_12_09).pdf

There is also a pic of the nail pattern on the attachment below.


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

That's interesting. Never seen a shingle like that.

Looks like there is a complete set of application instructions there for you.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> That's interesting. Never seen a shingle like that.
> 
> Looks like there is a complete set of application instructions there for you.


Yeah I wish I had seen it earlier! It's very detailed. I just found it last night while I was doing some searching online. Unfortunately the instructions on the package are very abbreviated.


----------



## Neo (Jun 22, 2009)

Ed the Roofer said:


> ...
> What DIY'ers and rookies commonly make as a mistake though, is to align both the starter shingle and the field shingle, so the both side edge butt ends are exactly in alignment with each other. This is a BIG mistake, which allows water to go directly between the side end of those two stacked shingles and get to the felt paper or Ice and Water Shield and possibly, especially in cases where Ice and Water Shield is not used, deteriorate the deck sheathing and soffit and fascia wood.
> 
> Ed


I take it the first row should be set back (up the roof) a little bit from the start row so there's no capillary action pulling water in between them. Or is the first row supposed to overhang the start row w/ the theory that the water will drip off and not go back up underneath to the starter row?


----------



## johnk (May 1, 2007)

dc4nomore said:


> Here you go...
> 
> "Shingles must be nailed between the adhesive to allow penetration through the double-ply area just above the tops of the laminated tabs."
> 
> ...


Yes Bp shingles are installed this way,between the intermittent tar strips.


----------



## IronMike (Jun 19, 2009)

And before you fall off the roof, let a professional do it for you...:laughing:
http://www.egenie.co.uk


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

IronMike said:


> And before you fall off the roof, let a professional do it for you...:laughing:
> http://www.egenie.co.uk



No. :no:


----------



## Han'D' (Apr 7, 2009)

Wow!!! What a saga! I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread from beginning to...END, where's the END!? I want more...MORE MORE MORE!!! Don't leave me hangi'n like a Harry Potter follower hungered for the next episode...LOL

I roofed a shed some two yrs ago and it was my first. I bought a book and did research online. I must say altho it took a week in July it was thrilling and fulfilling and I only wish you guys were there for me. I am now contemplating the house roof as a project to do for the wife and I feel that btwn the shed and you knowledgable folk that I CAN DO IT!!

I know a small shed is a far cry from the real thing but I am energized from this thread. This is what its all about and I commend dc for having the jimmies to go at it on his own. Of course I question why he did not purchase a guide of some sort considering all he shelled out for this and that...but hey to each his own!

That being said I have to once again thank all of you for filling this man's time with worthwhile media for a change and I look forward to the PICs and a happy ending. No word for some time will most def make me sad as I will fear the worst Mr. Potter

Han'D'


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Han'D' said:


> Wow!!! What a saga! I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread from beginning to...END, where's the END!? I want more...MORE MORE MORE!!! Don't leave me hangi'n like a Harry Potter follower hungered for the next episode...LOL
> 
> I roofed a shed some two yrs ago and it was my first. I bought a book and did research online. I must say altho it took a week in July it was thrilling and fulfilling and I only wish you guys were there for me. I am now contemplating the house roof as a project to do for the wife and I feel that btwn the shed and you knowledgable folk that I CAN DO IT!!
> 
> ...


Nobody's leaving you hanging! I know I haven't put as much time into my posts on here lately but it's because I've been really busy at work (actual work, not the roof). But anyways, I've got everything but the flashing done on the first side of the roof. It looks really good so far. I've got some prior engagements this weekend so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to do in the next couple days, but we'll see.

I don't really know how to put pics on here so maybe somebody could shed the light? The little "how to" thing at the top of the roofing forum only explains how to add an attachment.

As far as purchasing a guide...believe me I looked. I've got nearly all of the 1-2-3 Home Depot books and similar books like them, but they don't make a roofing book. I found one by creative homeowner, but it is poorly written and does not offer much help.

As far as doing the roof yourself....DO IT! It is hard work and is incredibly hot up there and you will sweat like no other, but it is really rewarding and you will save a ton of money doing the work yourself. Just make sure you're drinking water almost constantly.

Thanks again to everyone's input and help! :thumbup:

-Dave


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Read one of the top 2 threads in this roofing forum for instructions on inserting a photo into your post.

Ed


----------



## Han'D' (Apr 7, 2009)

Creative Homeowner...Just looked up and yeah that's the one I got. I thought it was OK. Some questions but I asked around (I live on a street full of handymen and contractors) and checked the web. She got me thru the shed (mimd you only a 10X12).

I know too well the water thing. JULY!!! I should have gotten stock in Gatorade that year! But def rewarding and I am in the midst of speaking to the boss about doing ours. I will run the numbers to see. We need a complete tear down, new eaves and rakes plus guttering. May be a bit too much for me. 

How about a starter list of must haves so I can price...

Thanx in advance and...Git R Done...Safely:thumbup:


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Talking about books from home ripoff and MeNards.........WE did a few houses for a guy who wrote roofing books for those stores. He had to make a few adjustments after watching us do his work. You may think that these people actually do work, but they are just authors and good with words. Kind of like a salesman. They know the lingo, but don't know what the actual efforts of the job are.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Read one of the top 2 threads in this roofing forum for instructions on inserting a photo into your post.
> 
> Ed


Ed, this thread only shows how to add an attachment, with a very small photo attached (<100 KB). How do you actually add the photo directly to the post, similar to how you added the photos of the starter strips?


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Han'D' said:


> I know too well the water thing. JULY!!! I should have gotten stock in Gatorade that year! But def rewarding and I am in the midst of speaking to the boss about doing ours. I will run the numbers to see. We need a complete tear down, new eaves and rakes plus guttering. May be a bit too much for me.


After the fact, I realize I probably should have replaced all of my eaves and rakes as well, but too late now. Do it at the same time though if you need it done. I'm sure it would mess everything up if you tried to replace those boards after you put new shingles one.



Han'D' said:


> How about a starter list of must haves so I can price...


Are you asking this to me specifically? I'm probably not the one to ask. Maybe one of the other guys would be able to answer this better. You'll need to give more specific info for your roof though (# of squares, eave length, etc.)


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

MJW said:


> Talking about books from home ripoff and MeNards.........WE did a few houses for a guy who wrote roofing books for those stores. He had to make a few adjustments after watching us do his work. You may think that these people actually do work, but they are just authors and good with words. Kind of like a salesman. They know the lingo, but don't know what the actual efforts of the job are.


Well said MJW...those books can give you a starting point, but they are in no way fully comprehensive, nor are they always correct.

I've learned from some guys in the electrical forum here that there are some major mistakes in the Black and Decker series on Home Wiring.


----------



## dc4nomore (Oct 1, 2008)

Status Update:

The 2nd half of the roof is torn off. Actually, it's been that way since Saturday, but weather and other complications have slowed things down a bit.

This side of the roof is being a pain in the butt as far as the decking is concerned. Every single board is loose, and many are broken/badly cracked. Actually the other side was a pain too, but this side just seems to be taking me longer. If I could start this project over, I would tear off every single 1x6 plank up there and cover the whole roof with 7/16 OSB board. Then I could be sure that I would have a solid and secure foundation to lay the shingles, and I wouldn't have to worry about the boards cracking when you drive a nail into them, as the current 1x6's do.

Also it would have been cheaper and would have been much faster to apply than replacing only the bad boards with 1x6's. (8ft 1x6's are $5 each!, and I've bought over $150 worth so far) And of course I would have saved on the # of nails I'd had to buy if I'd went with the OSB board.

But oh well, you live and you learn. If I ever replace a roof on an older house again, now I'll know...


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

dc4nomore said:


> Ed, this thread only shows how to add an attachment, with a very small photo attached (<100 KB). How do you actually add the photo directly to the post, similar to how you added the photos of the starter strips?


 
Either host the photo on a photo sharing site, like PhotoBucket.com and many others and then provide the forum link to the photo.

or

Resize the photo on your computer.

Easiest way is to use MS Paint and you open that by Right Clicking on the photo and Click Edit.

Now you are in MS Paint with the full sized photo.

Go up to the top tool bar and find Stretch/Skew.

Decrease the percentage in the drop boxes and do a Save As. )For me, I use a 6.1 megapixel camera, so I reduce to 30%.)

Then, you have a smaller image.

Also, Save It as a JPEG instead of any of the other formats. It takes up less real estate.

Ed


----------



## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Most don't remove the 1x's, you usually go over them with 7/16" OSB. That is a very solid roof. We are doing a small job right now and doing that very thing. 4 layers of shingles to tear off, 1 layer 3 tab, 2 layers rolled roofing, and a layer of shakes.


----------

