# 3-way switch - powered switch in middle?



## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

dalepres said:


> I have an existing light with a single switch near the middle of the kitchen. I want to put in a three-way switch with the second switch located by the kitchen entrance. So far, easy enough.
> 
> The problem is that it is simple to wire from the existing switch to the new switch location but not from the light to the new switch location. This means I would end up with powered switch in the middle. New 14-3 going out one way to second switch, and the existing 14-2 from the middle switch to the light.
> 
> I can't find any example of how to wire a 3-way switch with SW->SW->Light and power going into the middle switch. Can it be done?


It wouldn't work if you came out of the light anyway... unless you were one lucky guy that for some reason already had a 3 conductor run to the exiting light.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Yes you can take an existing working switch and light setup and run a 3 wire cable from the existing switch location to the new switch location and make a 3 way setup.

Remove the power wire from the old switch and connect it to the common terminal (usually darker colored or with a "C" engraved near it) of a 3 way switch.

Remove the light fixture wire (black) from the old switch and connect it to the black wire of the new 3 wire cable going to the other switch location.

Connect the new cable red and white wires to the traveler terminals of the 3 way switch.

At the new switch location connect the red and white wires to the traveler terminals of the other 3 way switch and connect the black wire to the common terminal.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)




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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

or like this, either way will work...


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks, Allan and Stickyboy. I'll try it out in the morning.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

14/3 from the old switch is the only way to make this work.

This has come up so many times I have created a document about it. Here it is.

This is simple once you get the cable to the new switch.
I am going to skip ground wires in the description. Connect all of them together and to the switch if it has a ground screw.

Remove the two wires from the existing switch. Leave everything else alone. The wires could be both black or black and white. Might even be black and red. It doesn't matter.
Connect one wire to the common screw of your new three way switch#1.
Connect the other wire to the black wire to your new switch#2.
Connect the red and white wires to the remaining two traveller screws of the new switch#1.

At new switch#2 connect the black to the common screw.
Connect the red and white wires to the remaining two traveller screws of the new switch#2.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

Here is stickboy1375 drawing in a less schematic look. Sorry I had to use blue for the white wire.

This diagram is wrong. Please ignore this post














Post kept for historic reference.

Goosebarry


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

joed said:


> 14/3 from the old switch is the only way to make this work.
> 
> This has come up so many times I have created a document about it. Here it is.


There are actually 5 permutations for how to connect up 3 way switches to a single load and 3 additional for multiple loads (Flashback to 9th grade shop class). The one you show is not the OP set-up.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

goosebarry said:


> Here is stickboy1375 drawing in a less schematic look. Sorry I had to use blue for the white wire.
> 
> View attachment 52382


The white should be the supply to the switch, not a traveler. Incoming power to re-marked white. Re-marked white to common at 2nd switch, black and red as travelers.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

goosebarry said:


> Here is stickboy1375 drawing in a less schematic look. Sorry I had to use blue for the white wire.
> 
> View attachment 52382



Those look like normal switches with the white wire on the ground screw.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

goosebarry said:


> There are actually 5 permutations for how to connect up 3 way switches to a single load and 3 additional for multiple loads (Flashback to 9th grade shop class). The one you show is not the OP set-up.


How do you figure this is not what he has. this is what he said in the original post. 


> New 14-3 going out one way to second switch, and the existing 14-2 from the middle switch to the light.


one 14/3 and one 14/2.


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

joed said:


> How do you figure this is not what he has. this is what he said in the original post.
> 
> one 14/3 and one 14/2.


OP has power to switch, you show power to light first. I think


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> The white should be the supply to the switch, not a traveler. Incoming power to re-marked white. Re-marked white to common at 2nd switch, black and red as travelers.





joed said:


> Those look like normal switches with the white wire on the ground screw.


Goose's drawing is totally off, and yes those are SP switches.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

joed said:


> Those look like normal switches with the white wire on the ground screw.


I thought something looked funny, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

FYI people, if OP is on 2011 NEC:

404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> I thought something looked funny, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.


yeah, it took me a few minutes to really look at what goose drew and realize what it was.


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

Code05 said:


> yeah, it took me a few minutes to really look at what goose drew and realize what it was.


I saw it too but kind if figured out what was implied.
Shouldn't the white and red wired land on the same respective traveler screws though?


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## Sunny 1 (Jun 13, 2012)

Code05 said:


> yeah, it took me a few minutes to really look at what goose drew and realize what it was.


Hey Derrik I just tryed to PM you but it's not sending. I don't know what's the problem with my iphone, but please PM me when you get a chance, thank you


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

danpik said:


> I saw it too but kind if figured out what was implied.
> Shouldn't the white and red wired land on the same respective traveler screws though?


Assuming you are referring to a dead end 3 way this is how you would wire it.










It makes no difference how you land the black or red wires on the non common terminals. White has to be re-identified. 2011 now requires a neutral at the remote switch, you could use 14/4 or 14-2-2 or #12 if it is a 20A circuit


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Sunny 1 said:


> Hey Derrik I just tryed to PM you but it's not sending. I don't know what's the problem with my iphone, but please PM me when you get a chance, thank you


Is this Sunny B? You have PM options disabled in user options.


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## Sunny 1 (Jun 13, 2012)

Code05 said:


> Is this Sunny B? You have PM options disabled in user options.


Yes this is Sunny B. I can't login to my old account so I had to create a new profile.


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## sixspeed (Apr 11, 2012)

Code05 said:


> FYI people, if OP is on 2011 NEC:
> 
> 404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
> control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
> ...



Does this code mean neutral at "the" one (any) switch location, or at ALL switch locations, within the multi-switch circuit? 

If neutral is required at ALL switch locations, then, in this case, an additional insulated conductor is required at the far-end 3-way, right? Which leads to the question of proper cabling method (14/4 or 14/2/2) for that run, unless [14/2 + 14/2] is ok?


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Sunny 1 said:


> Yes this is Sunny B. I can't login to my old account so I had to create a new profile.


Sunny, just go to USER CP at top left, click on it.

Then go to EDIT OPTIONS in the list on the left.

Third section down will have a box that says Enable PM.

Do this and then PM a mod and explain, he/she will give you access to your old account. Here is your old profile.

http://www.diychatroom.com/members/sunny-b--125877/


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

sixspeed said:


> Does this code mean neutral at "the" one (any) switch location, or at ALL switch locations, within the multi-switch circuit?


I believe it means all. It was added so people could not use the ground as a neutral for electronic switches. Blame UL for listing the devices in the first place.

Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded
conductor is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting
control devices.



> If neutral is required at ALL switch locations, then, in this case, an additional insulated conductor is required at the far-end 3-way, right?


Insulated and identified/marked per 200.6



> Which leads to the question of proper cabling method (14/4 or 14/2/2) for that run, *unless [14/2 + 14/2] is ok*?


I have heard of people doing this and to be honest, I am not sure if it is legal or not. Seems to conflict with 300.3(B).


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## Sunny 1 (Jun 13, 2012)

Code05 said:


> Sunny, just go to USER CP at top left, click on it.
> 
> Then go to EDIT OPTIONS in the list on the left.
> 
> ...


I don't see the User PC option. Where is it located? Which top left corner?


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## Sunny 1 (Jun 13, 2012)

Sunny 1 said:


> I don't see the User PC option. Where is it located? Which top left corner?


Just email me [email protected]


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Sunny 1 said:


> I don't see the User PC option. Where is it located? Which top left corner?


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Sunny 1 said:


> Just email me [email protected]


Email sent.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

I accept my morning flogging.
I will never attempt to draw at 2:00 AM. I grabbed the wrong switch from the library (yep it was a normal switch).

How about this (including properly marking the white wire)










joed said:


> How do you figure this is not what he has. this is what he said in the original post.quote]
> The OP said " SW->SW->Light and power going into the middle switch." your diagram had power going to the light. At least you didn't electricute him like I did.
> 
> We need a good set of 3 way and 4 way switch drawings that DIY laymen can understand cause we get this question all the time. I like them with real switches and plugs so I can visualize what is in front of me. I'm willing to pitch in a $50 Amazon certificate, if they are good. (I know that is about $3 and hour)
> ...


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

goosebarry said:


> I accept my morning flogging.
> I will never attempt to draw at 2:00 AM. I grabbed the wrong switch from the library (yep it was a normal switch).
> 
> How about this (including properly marking the white wire)
> View attachment 52397


Close.

Feed the dead end with the white conductor.

200.(7)(C)(2) *Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch* but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Electrically what you drew is fine, this just a minor nit pick code section reference.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Code05 said:


> Electrically what you drew is fine, this just a minor nit pick code section reference.


Yeah, like anyone was going to catch it. :no::whistling2:


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> Yeah, like anyone was going to catch it. :no::whistling2:


Go meet George in Salisbury, betcha he would.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

joed said:


> This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?


Under our most current code, we have to have a neutral at every switch now, unless adding one later is easy, ie conduit or have access above, below, or behind without damaging finishes.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

joed said:


> This is an existing installation of a single pole switch. There is no neutral present now at the switch. Are you saying that to add the new switch and make this a three way, you are required to rewire the entire circuit to get a neutral in the switch box?


Interesting thought. I don't know how that aspect would be addressed.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> Interesting thought. I don't know how that aspect would be addressed.


You wouldn't have to address it, since you were able to snake the 3 wire up, you could always snake a new branch circuit up later if a neutral was required at a later date.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't think that would meet the Exception 2 condition.

*(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*​​​​Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.​
_Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.​_


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> I don't think that would meet the Exception 2 condition.
> 
> *(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.​*​​​​Where switches
> control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
> ...




IMO, if the attic or basement are not finished, i.e. sheetrock, plywood, etc... then you meet the required criteria of unfinished....


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I did not go backward in the thread to see if any of those conditions applied. If unfinished I would agree with you that the neutral does not need to be installed.

That will probably come in the 2017 edition when someone reads this and thinks ahead to when the wall might get finished. I don't see a part that says it would need to be installed if it previously did not have a neutral and you were finishing the area.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> I did not go backward in the thread to see if any of those conditions applied. If unfinished I would agree with you that the neutral does not need to be installed.
> 
> That will probably come in the 2017 edition when someone reads this and thinks ahead to when the wall might get finished. I don't see a part that says it would need to be installed if it previously did not have a neutral and you were finishing the area.


Im a huge fan of this requirement by the way, and i've actually burned myself dropping a switch leg down to the basement only to find out a Radio Ra switch with neutral connection was required, So i already changed my ways of wiring for my own personal benefit of retrofitting devices... We install a ton of Radio Ra 2 devices..


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

stickboy1375 said:


> Im a huge fan of this requirement by the way


What!?!? I gotta plan /install for what if....:no: This new section is BS.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Maybe they left out the part about not being a design manual? More and more seems to be headed that way.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

goosebarry said:


> Here is stickboy1375 drawing in a less schematic look. Sorry I had to use blue for the white wire.


Goose...to avoid having to use blue for a white wire....just paint the entire background a light gray color before drawing anything else. Not a big deal using blue for white but just in case. I didnt do a sketch for this setup but attached one of two SP switches controlling two separate lights.


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Wow. I thought this was going to be easy. All the discussion is great but I have to sort it out. Spent the day yesterday doing plumbing so I'm just now getting ready to hook up this light. 

I do have nuetral at the switch. The original switch wire was damaged and I pulled new 14-2 wire from the light to the switch in the middle and 14-3 from the middle switch to the far-end switch.

So, am I to understand that Goose's latest drawing, if I add three strips of tape on the white wire instead of one, is the way to go?

Thanks


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

By the way, some have mentioned that this is such a common question but I don't find anything in this site or any other site on power coming in to the middle switch. Even sites with as many as 8 different scenarios don't cover this power-in-the-middle scenario.

Thanks, Code05 for the very useful switch diagram. Though I am not an electrician, I have decades of experience in electronics and the reminder that this is just a SPDT switch scenario makes it really easy to understand.


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

dalepres said:


> By the way, some have mentioned that this is such a common question but I don't find anything in this site or any other site on power coming in to the middle switch. Even sites with as many as 8 different scenarios don't cover this power-in-the-middle scenario.
> 
> Thanks, Code05 for the very useful switch diagram. Though I am not an electrician, I have decades of experience in electronics and the reminder that this is just a SPDT switch scenario makes it really easy to understand.


Are you saying you have a solution or not?


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## sixspeed (Apr 11, 2012)

dalepres said:


> By the way, some have mentioned that this is such a common question but I don't find anything in this site or any other site on power coming in to the middle switch. ...


The way I've tried to keep it simple about multi-way switching is by remembering schematically the common of one switch takes the hot line power, and the common of the other switch gives the line power to the load. Then all the travelers connect to each other respectively, regardless of whether there are any or how many 4-ways in the middle.
So it doesn't matter where the line power enters into the picture; you just need to "get" the hot line to one 3-way switch and "get back" the neutral from the load (and per 2011 NEC, create the neutral "bus" among all the switches too).


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## dalepres (Mar 20, 2011)

Code05, I do have a solution. Thanks. I wired it according to your diagram and it worked perfectly. Just wrapped it up now.

Thanks all for your help.

Dale


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

dalepres said:


> Code05, I do have a solution. Thanks. I wired it according to your diagram and it worked perfectly. Just wrapped it up now.
> 
> Thanks all for your help.
> 
> Dale










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