# Is the gas valve bad?



## Gargecko (Oct 12, 2008)

I have a small boiler that the pilot light will not stay lite. I have replaced the thermocuople and the the mila volts DC current on the thermocuople while it's under a load. I have 30 mila volts of current. I have held the lite pilot button in for several minutes and when I let it go, the pilot light goes out. Do we have a bad gas valve or what else may be causing this.

Thanks ahead of time for any help.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

If the pilot is enveloping the top quarter of the t'couple than I would say the valve is bad. But make sure that the flam is a nice soft blue flame and not hard and blowing.


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## Gargecko (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks for the reply HVAC lover. The flame is like you described. I also forgot to mention that this is a propane gas, but the pilot flame is good and strong and is engulfing the thermocuole fine. Think I need a new gas valve.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The gas valve may or may not have an ECO.
If it has 2 wires at the thermocouple fitting, it has an ECO.

Meaning it could be the gas valve, or a safety doing its job do to a control failure, or wiring short.


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## Gargecko (Oct 12, 2008)

Interesting thought beenthere. It does not have two wiries at the thermocouple fitting though . An ECO? does this stand for elecronic cut-out.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

ENERGY CUT OUT

A left overfrom GE furnac production.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> The gas valve may or may not have an ECO.
> If it has 2 wires at the thermocouple fitting, it has an ECO.
> 
> Meaning it could be the gas valve, or a safety doing its job do to a control failure, or wiring short.


 
He's measuring 30mv at the vavle. If the ECO was tripped there would be no reading and the pilot would be out. (OK Been, tell me where i missed the boat lol).:laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

He never said how he was reading the voltage at the valve under load.(what is he connecting his meter to?)

He also said the pilot goes out when he leaves the pilot button go. Which is what an ECO would do in a safety mode.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> He never said how he was reading the voltage at the valve under load.(what is he connecting his meter to?)
> 
> He also said the pilot goes out when he leaves the pilot button go. Which is what an ECO would do in a safety mode.


 And so would a weak pilot operator.

The ECO breaks the t'couple circuit so would it not read zero with the pilotknob pressed in?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hvaclover said:


> And so would a weak pilot operator.
> 
> The ECO breaks the t'couple circuit so would it not read zero with the pilotknob pressed in?


No, you would still be able to read voltage across the terminals.

When I do test a thermocouple, I use a J block, and read across its terminals to see what I read under load.

I just unscrew the thermocouple, screw the block in, and the thermo into the block. Hook my meters alligator clips to the block terminals, light the pilot, and read my voltage, or lack of.

Using clips, I can hold the button down with one hand, light the pilot with the other, and read the thermo at the same time.

After the pilots lit, I can scratch my head with my free hand, while still watching the readings. 

I seldom test thermos anymore.
I install a new one.
If the valve is bad instead. No problem. I don't install new valves and leave old thermos in.

No customer wants to pay for a new vavle, and a week or so later. Pay another fee to have someone come out and install a new thermo.
Let alone, I don't want to get out of bed at midnight for free because I left an old thermo in.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> No, you would still be able to read voltage across the terminals.
> 
> When I do test a thermocouple, I use a J block, and read across its terminals to see what I read under load.
> 
> ...


 

LLOOOOOONNNGGG time ago was interviewing for a position and the SM asked how to check a t'couple. What I told him he didn't like (I described measuring the mv) he said no. He told me you blow out the pilot and if it's good the operator would close in three minutes and the t'couple was good too. I remember reading that in Honeywell. But you and bot h know that test leaves a lot of room for error.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

LOL, yea, that was the old old way.

HW then came out with disposable t couple testers.
Never used them. But I thought it was, a bit of a bogus thing to sell.


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## Gargecko (Oct 12, 2008)

The initial call was a pilot light that would only stay lite for 10 minutes or so on a residential boiler. Upon arrival I found that the thermocouple had been replaced by the home owner. The problem was the thermocouple's reataining clip had slid up on the thermocoples probe and the flame was not engulfing the thermocouple correctly. I fixed this problem and whlie I had the pilot assembly out of the unit I thought even though the thermocouple was new and the pilot flame appeared good and strong I should check the current and clean the pilot assembly , orfice, and tube. With the end of the thermocouple out of the gas valve I hooked the aligator clip here and the other aligator clip from my meter leads to the thermocuoples wire for a ground. This measured 30 mili volts DC current while holding the pilots button in to keep the pilot lite. So i reassembled the pilot assembly back into the unit, switched the gas valves knob to "on" , burrners come on and everything looks fine. I stayed and cycled the burrners threeor four times and watch the temp. heat the water to 180 degress. This was three days ago. I get a call from the home owner today and he says that is cannot keep the pilot lite. he holds the pilot button in for several minutes and the pilot always goes out.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Gargecko said:


> The initial call was a pilot light that would only stay lite for 10 minutes or so on a residential boiler. Upon arrival I found that the thermocouple had been replaced by the home owner. The problem was the thermocouple's reataining clip had slid up on the thermocoples probe and the flame was not engulfing the thermocouple correctly. I fixed this problem and whlie I had the pilot assembly out of the unit I thought even though the thermocouple was new and the pilot flame appeared good and strong I should check the current and clean the pilot assembly , orfice, and tube. With the end of the thermocouple out of the gas valve I hooked the aligator clip here and the other aligator clip from my meter leads to the thermocuoples wire for a ground. This measured 30 mili volts DC current while holding the pilots button in to keep the pilot lite. So i reassembled the pilot assembly back into the unit, switched the gas valves knob to "on" , burrners come on and everything looks fine. I stayed and cycled the burrners threeor four times and watch the temp. heat the water to 180 degress. This was three days ago. I get a call from the home owner today and he says that is cannot keep the pilot lite. he holds the pilot button in for several minutes and the pilot always goes out.


The valve or something keeps blowing out pilot.

Burner concussion maybe? 



BeenThere your turn LOL


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

That is not testing it under load.

Under load, would be while its hooked to the gas valve.
I found a lot of t couples that will test good that way, but are weak. When tested underload, they test out at 20 or less mV.

The clip could be bad, and letting the t couple slide away from the pilot flame.

If its not.
Install a block, and check it while under load. If it test ok then. You probably have a bad gas valve.

Keep in mind, that if it is a gas valve. You should still install a new t couple.


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

beenthere said:


> I seldom test thermos anymore.
> I install a new one.
> If the valve is bad instead. No problem. I don't install new valves and leave old thermos in.


I don't test anymore either. It takes longer to test that to replace. And for the $4 I don't have to come back for a marginal thermo that only had a few months left anyhow.

When I do annuals I replace the thermo if it is over 2 years old. I figure they are paying me for something and this keeps me from coming back a few months later. Nothing like having a furnace fail right after you did an annual on it.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> That is not testing it under load.
> 
> Under load, would be while its hooked to the gas valve.
> I found a lot of t couples that will test good that way, but are weak. When tested underload, they test out at 20 or less mV.
> ...


 
Maybe i am confusing matters here. I sold coleman 78%ers for a while and the Robertshaw redundant valve had grooves vetical on the pilot operator.

You could check the mv with the tcouple attached to the valve with the burners lite,.


Sorry I was a little slow on the up take. The open circuit and closed circuit test. That's basic stuff but it's been so long since I saw a standing pilot ...

But Been He did say the top quarter was enveloped with a good flame.

But he's going by the customer telling him the t'couple was new.

Put in a new one and see what happens.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

A lot of newer valves do have the cut out for checking under load.
But not all. And there are still a lot of older vavles out that don't have the cut out.

So I carry the block.

Probably have the time that I do check them. I use the block when I could use the tabs at the cut out. But I can't use clips thens. 

Old habits are hard to break.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Tell me about it.


Hey Been! I just back from the casino. I broke even:thumbup: That means I won:jester:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I haven't been to a casino for a Year or so.
I take down X amount of money, and if I have gas money left, I did ok. LOL


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

There's been too much drama at home..Mama Clover needed some "Get me the hell out of the house" time.

When she hits a losing streak she cusses the slots like a tech does an obstinate furnace..lol..lucky it's ll in Greek.

i get mad sometimes too, have to walk away from the slot and get a beer to cool down.


Had a little heartbreak of my own too. Bought a Fluke for the first time, a 116. Found out it was made in china.

Also been hearing the guys complain about the quality.

Looks like it's going back


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The quality of everythng goes down, when cost have to be cut.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Would you keep it? I always used UEI before.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I would keep it. Just to say i have a Fluke.

I use Fieldpiece. I don't have any problems with them.
My manometer is a Testo though, much better then fields.

I find if you drop them off the roof of a 3 story building, it breaks as well as a Fluke. Just cost less to replace.


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