# Unintended kitchen remodel



## Itsdanf

*Demolition begins*

We figured there were two possible sources for the water: 1) leakage from the kitchen sink (incoming water or drainage); 2) leakage from the ice maker water supply. To fully explore, the sink cabinet and all base cabinets to the right had to be removed.

So, after emptying all the kitchen cabinets in the target area, I disassembled the kitchen sink. This was more involved than I expected, particularly since I was trying to salvage as many parts as possible:

- Removed the water supply tubes
- Carefully disassembled all the drain tubing
- Removed the faucet and instant hot dispenser (faucet and tank), both of which I installed since moving in, so they’re fairly new
- Removed the electrical outlet I installed under the cabinet for the hot water dispenser
- Disconnected the dishwasher drain tube
- Disconnected the electric line to the disposal
- Removed the disposal
- …and finally, removed the sink itself. 

Whew. Lots of pieces/tasks!


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## Itsdanf

*Out with the cabinets*

After removing the electrical outlets/switches on the wall, it was time to rip off the backsplash. It was made of laminated ¾” fiber board. Since I only had to remove to the sink, I sawed apart the countertop to left of the sink with a reciprocating saw. The base cabinets were built in a long run, and I’d already destroyed the sink portion when I first looked for the leak, so I just cut out the remaining parts of the sink section of the cabinet, then pulled out the remaining base cabinet section (after sawing out the nails used to attach them to the wall).


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## Itsdanf

*Discovery*

Next I ripped out the lower half of the drywall. Then I cut and pulled out the exposed insulation. 

At this point, I could discover the source of the leak: The copper tubing in the wall supplying the icemaker valve had a 90 degree elbow fitting that was soldered poorly by the last idiot plumber to work on it. This was apparently a repair job after the house was built, since a 1’ square piece of plywood was used as a patch between the supply valve and the drywall. Apparently the vertical copper pipe was only inserted into the elbow about 1 millimeter before they soldered it. This very weak joint apparently developed a small leak (due to vibration or a bump to the exterior valve; who knows). Over time the leak got worse, causing the exterior water leakage. The plywood patch was difficult to cut out, and the vibrations of the effort apparently caused the joint to fail completely. Fortunately I had turned off the house water beforehand.


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## Itsdanf

*Initial repairs*

So, first I had to fix the leak, so I could turn the water back on. I torched the old elbow off the pipes, and you can see by the pictures the difference between the good joint and the bad one. 

To make sure the pipe would fit fully into the new elbow fixture, I first had to extend the vertical pipe about ½ centimeter. To do this, I first used emery cloth to sand down and clean the pipe to shiny copper. I cut the errant pipe about 3 inches down, and reconnected the cut piece using a coupling. This gave me enough extra length to seat the end firmly into the new elbow. (I didn’t have extra tubing, and it was getting too late to go to the store for supplies; fortunately I had the right size coupling from a previous project).

So, this gave me a total of 4 joints to solder. Not the best-looking solder job I’ve done (not by far), but it worked!:whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

*Collateral damage*

Part 1:
Unfortunately, the icemaker valve I thought was open when I started soldering was actually closed. Oops!! When we turned the water supply back on, the valve started leaking, probably because the heat from the soldering built up pressure/heat in the valve. So, off with the water, and another trip to the store to get a replacement valve. 

Part 2:
When I initially turned off the house water supply, I knew it would be off for a while. Accordingly, I turned off the circuits to our two hot water heaters, and turned off the water supply shutoffs at the tanks. After I finished with the kitchen plumbing, I went to open the shutoffs. Unfortunately, one of them started leaking through the valve stem. Since this was late at night, I simply closed the  thing and went to sleep.

So, normal repair would be to remove the valve stem and change out the bushing gasket. Tried. However, I couldn’t get the handle to come off, and I couldn’t pull the valve stem assembly out of the fixture. I didn’t want to force anything, because I had enough to deal with without also having to replace a battered shutoff valve. So I applied a trick I had recently learned on some Youtube video: I wrapped the exposed stem about 7-8 times with Teflon tape, and then screwed the packing nut back down securely. This did the trick!


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## Itsdanf

*Cleanup time*

Now it’s time to clean out the wall. The water leached up the plywood sheathing a couple feet, and had turned black. The base of some of the studs and the bottom plate were sopping. To tackle, we cleaned out and scraped up the surface gunk (wet insulation, dirt, etc.). Then we sprayed the affected areas with a 50/50 water/bleach solution. After running a box fan over the area overnight and most of the next day, we continued scraping away gunk and re-treating with the water/bleach solution. 

Next considerations: 

- Determine what repairs to do to the damaged studs. Once totally dried out, will see what solid wood is left. I was thinking of sistering some 2x4 lengths beside the existing studs. However, the damage might not be significant enough to warrant it (I hope).

- Determine what to do about the bottom plate. May have to cut out a section and replace.

- Determine what to do with the sheathing. We are treating the inside of the sheathing. The main challenge is that the brick wall on the outside is connected to the sheathing, so there’s no accessing the exterior part of the sheathing without tearing down the brick wall. Is there any way to avoid this?? I’m going to post the issue separately to get some input/advice. 

- We traced the water damage to the wall at the corner of the room. On the other side of the wall is the front door. I need to remove some trim to see to what extent the water made there, and what the damage might be.


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## Itsdanf

*Doing dishes manually? Yuck!!*

After a few nights of washing dishes manually in the utility room sink, my wife requested that I get the dishwasher started up again. Previously the dishwasher drain tube was connected to the kitchen sink disposal. I went to the local big box, and one of the orange apron folks helped me come up with a nifty coupling method: Using my old drain pipes, I re-installed the trap and added a former drop pipe with the end cut off. I fit this into a rubber coupling which transitioned from my thin-walled 1 ½” pipe to a larger PVC pipe size (sorry, can’t remember what it’s called). On the other side of the coupling I fitted a PVC bushing, which had a screw hole into which I screwed in a 3” long nipple-type fitting that would accept the end of the dishwasher drain tube. Once the pipe clamps were tightened, it made a sweet connection.

That took care of the drainage. However, I forgot about the water supply. I reconnected the supply line to the hot water shutoff valve, but I'd failed to obtain a cap for the 2nd outlet of the valve (which previously fed the sink's hot water). Yet another trip to the store in the morning… :wallbash:


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## LeviDIY

Wow.. please keep us updated.. I'm curious how you will solve the sheeting situation..


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## Itsdanf

*Sheathing update*



LeviDIY said:


> Wow.. please keep us updated.. I'm curious how you will solve the sheeting situation..


Thanks. I was curious too! I posted the issue today: http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/water-damage-exterior-wall-59538/

I was very pleased with the replies, which indicated that I didn't have to worry about the exterior side of the plywood, since it's faced with brick. I only need to dry it out thoroughly, use a wood hardener on the damanged areas, and put 'er back together again (preferably using a mold-resistant drywall like Denshield. Still an open question about whether replacing the plastic vapor barrier is a good idea -- we'll see.

Meanwhile, my wife's been continuing work on cleaning up the wood (sorry, only room for one of us in the space :whistling2, and here's a couple updated photos. The wood's looking much better than when the drywall first came off!


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## Scuba_Dave

That looks much better now
As long as the wood isn't soft you should be OK 
My last house one area was a mess between bath & laundry which backed up to each other

I'm thinking that DW drain is Temp :wink:
We do not have one yet
Kitchen remodel is still in the future


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## Ivy

Yes, please keep us updated... I'm fixing to tear out my 40yr old kitchen and no telling what I might find.


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## Itsdanf

Scuba_Dave said:


> ...I'm thinking that DW drain is Temp :wink:
> We do not have one yet
> Kitchen remodel is still in the future


Yep, you know how these things go. "Temp" can last a long time with these projects -- particularly the unplanned ones. 

Meanwhile, it's nice to have a dishwasher again! Don't know how you can do without. Guess you're not as spoiled as (we didn't know) we are...


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## Scuba_Dave

Our kitchen is original - mid 50's
When we bought the house it came with the kitchen stepstool
Required to reach ANY cabinet in the kitchen
For all I know it has been passed down by owners since the 50's
Everything WAS original
I have replaced the counter top with a free one from someone & installed a new faucet
I've installed some Temp free cabinets that will end up in the garage

Built a sunroom off the kitchen & opened the wall
Plus opening up a bigger doorway to dining room
So wife knew it had to wait until larger construction was completed

Plan anything you want to do in the kitchen if this will be THE renovation & not just Temp stuff
One reason we have waited & done Temp measures
To be able to plan it out & buy some nice "stuff"

We already have new fridge, stove & microwave
Spreads the expense out some


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## Itsdanf

*Final things to check*

On the other side of the wall adjacent to the leak is our front door. Knowing some water might have leaked that far, I pulled some trim to take a look. Not so bad (not as bad as the photo looks), but some water had got there. Treated it with bleach mixture, let it dry for a couple days, and put the trim back. 


Of course, the trim didn't fully-cooperate when removing. The upper-corner miter was connected with a surprisingly large nail. When I pulled the vertical trim off, it cracked the horizontal piece. I glued and nailed the broken piece back on and caulked it a bit. With some paint, it will be invisible.


Also checked under the door threshold. Again, not a real problem. Bleached that too (just to make sure), and let it dry as well (fortunately the storm door, along with recently mild Texas weather, made this tolerable for a mid-December effort).

So, after the holidays, it will be time to stop taking things apart, and start putting things together!


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## LeviDIY

I'm sure that's a relief.. good you checked.. enjoy the holidays!


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## Itsdanf

*Wood hardening*

Today I decided to apply wood hardener to the wood affected by the water damage – mostly the sill (sole plate?) and stud bottoms, but also to the plywood sheathing where it was damaged by water and repair efforts (i.e., scraping, etc.). First, had to finish cleaning up. Really helps to have a shop vac for this type of work. 

Then to the hardener. Instructions say to use a disposable bristle brush. Decided to use a toothbrush from an airline amenity kit, plus a plastic cup to hold the liquid. However, I didn’t realize that the hardener would eat right through the bottom of the cup!!  (Wife said: “I could have told you that would happen.” :furious At least I could let the leaking cup drip all over the sill sections, so it didn’t go to waste (except the portion that soaked into my sweat pants; a lasting reminder of my stupidity). Dug out a glass jar to finish the job.

Also, the toothbrush didn’t work as well as a purchased cheap brush would have. The bristles of the toothbrush just don’t hold as much liquid as a real brush. I was constantly having to dip into the jar, causing uneven application and dripping on the floor. Not a disaster, but a reminder that it’s always best to use the right tool for the job.

Such a simple task became so complex… – as they usually do.


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## RST

*I'm really enjoying this thread*

Because of all the detail, and how I can relate to your experience. Having bought my house just a few months ago, I've found many hidden problems also, so I sympathize. Plus every project I do always has some "collateral damage" (like the door frame) but some good news also (like not removing the brick wall).


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## Itsdanf

Thanks RST. I'm intentionally putting in a lot of detail. I also like detailed showcases, and figure those of us who don't come from "the trades" can learn a lot from seeing the many specific steps that the pros will often ignore or gloss over.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out my next steps. I know I have to insulate and drywall. However, to drywall, I have to remove more cabinets (including the coveted dishwasher!), and I'm not ready for that step yet. :no:

More importantly, though, is what to do about new cabinetry. I've been using a couple free software options to model out a new kitchen: Project Dragonfly (http://dragonfly.autodesk.com/designer), and IKEA Home Planner (downloadable at www.ikea.com). Both have limitations, since none can handle everything I'm trying to model. I may have to bite the bullet and spend some bucks to get something more versatile.

Key decision is whether to buy stock cabinets, consider semi- or custom-made... -- or make my own. I'm seriously considering the last option. I've got time, space and most tools, and it'd be a great excuse to get more/better tools! :thumbup: I've made some cabinets before, and I think I could handle it -- with the right tools. I've GOT to upgrade my contractor table saw for something that can handle the big sheets. If I can also (finally) get a router table, and maybe a jointer and a pocket screw jig, I might be set.

A major consideration is cost, since this was NOT a budgeted project. If I can determine that DIY cabinetry is a signficant savings, then I'm probably taking that path.

Meanwhile, still researching.........


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## Sheila4467

Since this is a major part of your home, and you are going to spend a considerable amount of TIME on this part of the project, I would suggest that you furnish the kitchen with cabinets that you will be very proud of, regardless of purchase or DIY. If you decide on going DIY, get everything you need right from the beginning, INCLUDING THE TIME INVOLVED! It's seems to be a huge consideration when a remodel is in process. A combination of purchased, and DIY can be a serious consideration, I have seen many of them, and wow were they ever wonderful. 

I only mention this because shortcuts often evolve in situations like this, and the last thing you want is, a bunch of regrets when you have worked so hard. I know, I have done this myself, and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

It's going to cost you money, and a lot of hard work, so make it the best from the beginning. The reward is sooooo worth it.

I loved all of your repair examples, and I so agree, that showing all the details helps the novice. Like ME! Thank you for some Very Good Examples.

Good luck, and keep us posted of what you decide. I would love to watch.


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## Itsdanf

Sheila, thanks for the kind words and advice. My philosophy on DIY is that I want my projects to turn out BETTER than a pro would do (if possible). (...Okay, maybe my soldering isn't up to that yet, but that's the exception that proves the rule! :yes: )

Time is something I've got, being I'm (prematurely) retired. However, the "premature" means budget is more of a consideration than for most. We'll take our time figuring this out, but I'm looking forward to getting rolling with this again.

Meanwhile, I've had a distraction: I might be changing out my electrical distribution panel before I progress much more with the kitchen. I know I'll be reworking the lighting and outlet setup during the renovation, and will likely need to add a circuit or two. However, I have a Federal Pacific panel from when the house was built in the 70's, and they're notorious for breakers failing to engage when needed -- major fire hazard. Also, I understand that replacement breakers are harder to find and more expensive. So instead of adding more risk to this risky situation, I need to switch out the box with a new panel. I'm looking at doing this as a DIY project. But I won't be able to approach this for a few weeks, at least (more, if the unusually cold weather persists). 

Regardless, I'll be sure to keep posting as things progress.


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## Lali

I envy you not, but admire & appreciate your expressive details & dedication to solving some problematic issues. Pics are exceptionally clear. Thanks for sharing your adventure AND thanx a mil for using a larger font (makes it easier for those of us that read 'til our eyes are popping out of our heads!) :laughing:

Keep up the great job, look forward to seeing how it goes.

Happy New Year & God Bless!


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## Sheila4467

itsdanf,
It's so wonderful to know that time is not an issue, lately I have watched so many "botched" jobs just because all of a sudden a panic hits, and boom, a piece of art turns into a sad repair. 
I feel a lot like you, I want my DIY projects to be the best I can possibly make them. From past experience with my kitchen, I found it the hardest to adjust to. Having to eat, and feed 5 others everyday, created a very stressful situation for me. However, I learned my first real lesson on that project. Don't let inconvience and frustration change the "Master Plan"

(and not to take down wall cabinets alone)

I'm still a novice at DIY, so advice is not something I have any rights to, but concern from my own past experience leads me to ask. I guess being a mother for so many years, makes me too quick to suggest. 

Our situations seem to be about the same. I have all the time I need, and the budget is my biggest consideration. 

It's great that your going to start with the electric, I think it's the most important issue in a kitchen. Switching out the box for a new panel will be such a relief. No worries about the basics, and a clean slate for your kitchen project. 

It's obvious by your photos that you take your projects seriously, and you did a beautiful job on the leak, and now that it's not an issue anymore, you can take all the time you want to consider what you want to do with your kitchen. I call that a real success. 

We are prematurely retired too, and although we have lots of time, we have chosen to use a strict budget, and to finish our projects with no debt.

I look forward to seeing what's to come, and to tons of photos too.


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## Itsdanf

*Insulation*

While I’m waiting to figure out cabinets and prep to replace the electric distribution breaker panel, I decided it was time to put insulation back into the wall. After all, despite “global warming” theories, it’s more like the ice age outside!! A pretty straight-forward job – but not without a few hiccups!

I had to remove the remaining old insulation, trim off the remaining plastic vapor barrier, and install the new paper-faced fiberglass batting (R-13). Hiccup #1 occurred while removing the remaining old insulation. I discovered the skeleton of a mouse that apparently climbed into the wall to take its final nap.  It appears to be years old. 

Fortunately I've seen no evidence of extra residences of this kind in the 14 months we’ve lived here. :no: :thumbsup:


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## Itsdanf

*Insulation (cont'd)*

Once the old stuff was removed, I started cutting the roll of fiberglass batting. Roll out to measure, place a piece of scrap plywood below, cut by running a utility knife along a scrap piece of 1x2 while standing on it, place the strip between the studs (cutting holes for outlets, etc.), fold the paper flaps over and staple. Piece of cake!

Hiccup #2 (okay, not really a “hiccup”) was deciding what to do about insulating around the copper tubing where the original leak occurred. I posted a thread on the main site (http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/insulation-around-plumbing-61297/), and got good feedback. Based on that, I went to one of the local the big box stores, bought a sheet of ¾” insulation board (R4), and cut it to fit snugly, side-to-side, within the stud cavity. I pressed it into the back of the cavity (against outside wall sheathing), and then put in the fiberglass over it. I tried to press the batting behind the plumbing, so that the outside-facing side would get all the insulation and the inside to warm from the inside of the house; however, with the foam board installed, there was not enough room to squeeze in much batting. Not a big deal.


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## Itsdanf

*Insulation (concluded)*

Once everything was stapled up, I figured a simple job had been completed with no real problems. Alas, this thought occurred while I was sitting on the floor between the wall and the fridge. Trying to get up in that tight space, I ran into hiccup #3: My elbow hit the shutoff valve handle, and water sprayed up in a nice pretty fountain. ARRGH!!! :furious:

Fortunately not much water got out before I shut it off. Only one towel needed. A bit of drying time, and all will be fine. 

Meanwhile, I need a break….:drink:


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## Lali

Lookin' good! LOL re: hiccup #3! Thanx, keep up the great job!


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## Itsdanf

*Electrical Survey*

Thanks Lali!

Meanwhile, to prepare for changing out the main breaker panel (a Federal Pacific, a discontinued brand which has a history of breakers failing to break – not a good situation), I decided to do a detailed circuit map of the house. We measured all the walls of the house (took quite a while), and then created computerized floor plans (using free Project Dragonfly software; took even longer ).

Next step was to annotate on the floor layouts every switch, light fixture, outlet and installed appliance in the house. It was a larger job than I expected. We have over 90 outlets alone!

Next step was to go circuit hunting. My wife and I turned on all the lights, and started flipping circuit breakers to determine where the circuits are. It really helped to have walkie-talkies, particularly when we were trying to coordinate our searches out of ear shot. Also helped to have a night light to plug into outlets. In many rooms, there was more than one circuit covering the outlets, and many circuits covered outlets in more than one room.

I now have floor plans with details of my whole electric layout, with each outlet and fixture annotated with their associated circuit breaker number. I also made a separate list by breaker number, detailing everything on each circuit. Not only will this help me on planning for the panel swap, it will also be a great reference tool going forward whenever I have any electrical issues.

Next step will be to analyzing existing circuit loads. I’ll evaluate whether I should upgrade my panel capacity while I’m swapping, and whether I need to adjust any existing circuits that might be too overloaded. I currently have 200A service, with a 200A main panel, and a 100A sub-panel (not wired to the main panel, but branched out immediately from the meter; it's newer and doesn't need replacing).

SIDE NOTE: I’m including a photo of the panel with the cover removed – only photo I have available. Don’t worry, I didn’t do today’s exercise with an opened/exposed panel! Also, please ignore the dead wasps in the bottom of the panel. They got in during the summer through the service head, through the meter and into the panel.  I’ve already coordinated with the electric company folks to seal that pathway up on the meter side. :yes:


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## Sheila4467

Wow! what a wonderful job on the insulation.:thumbup:

I just love the detail you put into your electric work too!:thumbsup:

My husband thinks I'm crazy when I want to do something like that.
I think life goes a lot easier when we use these types of tools, and I have a lot less trouble when I use a "real plan."

I purchased small night lights to do the same thing, but we ended up just yelling all over the house instead. boo hoo. THEN my son came in, and "TO HELP" he clipped some of our electric wires in the family room we were working on!!:furious::furious::furious: We never did figure out a couple of the lights and plugs after that:furious:

Give me ORDER every time. It's what makes life go so much smoother.

Too bad no one else in my family thinks the same as me.

You did such a wonderful job on your plumbing, and the insulation is perfect. Gosh I love a job well done. Congratulations!:thumbup::thumbsup:

Keep the postings going, I love em.


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## Bernmeister

What a beautiful job your doing! are you putting in some sort of "access panel" to get in there a little easier if needbe? while the joints you re did came out perfect i would still be leary about the rust/corrosion on the others. i would guess alot of that is from the pipes being damp from the orig leak but it just scares me.


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## Gary in WA

Looking good. Before you completely cover the foam board by the water supply, remove the plastic vapor barrier from both sides of it and leave just the kraft paper inside. Otherwise, 2 v.b. and a vapor retarder in one wall with cold water pipe to condense there. It needs to dry to the outside.... Keep up the good work.

Be safe, Gary


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## Itsdanf

GBR in WA said:


> Looking good. Before you completely cover the foam board by the water supply, remove the plastic vapor barrier from both sides of it and leave just the kraft paper inside. Otherwise, 2 v.b. and a vapor retarder in one wall with cold water pipe to condense there. It needs to dry to the outside.... Keep up the good work.
> 
> Be safe, Gary


Drat! Didn't think of that, but makes perfect sense. Well, easy enough to get back into the wall to fix tomorrow. No drywall up yet (alas, that will take some time...).

Thanks for catching that Gary.

Dan


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## Itsdanf

Bernmeister said:


> What a beautiful job your doing! are you putting in some sort of "access panel" to get in there a little easier if needbe? while the joints you re did came out perfect i would still be leary about the rust/corrosion on the others. i would guess alot of that is from the pipes being damp from the orig leak but it just scares me.


Good point. I think the copper corrosion is in fact from the very damp condition over a long period of time while the leak was small and undetected. However, looking at it in person, I don't think the remaining joints are at risk. 

That said, I'd hate to tempt the plumbing gods! :no: Also, I've been wondering how to get drywall over the attached shutoff. Figured I'd have to shut the water off and remove it when the day came -- same issue/concern for the sink shutoffs and drain. 

I'm not sure what I'll do yet. I'll probably drywall it off, with reckless confidence, but also with the knowledge that it's easy to cut into drywall if needed, and install some type of alternative cover then.

Alas, it may take some time to get to that point...


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## Itsdanf

*More electrical concerns!*

I've discussed my concerns about the Federal Pacific breaker panel. However, I seem to have discovered another issue that's already generated a 3-page thread in Electrical! 

While planning for the upcoming panel switch, I figured I'd also correct an issue with my "sub-panel" that was noted in my home inspection report when we bought the house in late 2008, but which I've been putting off addressing due to other priorities. So I posted a question about it last night, and... well....... -- okay, I won't get into details here. If interested, check out the thread at http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/neutral-grounds-separate-bus-bars-61645/. Plenty of photos. :whistling2:

Tomorrow is another day.


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## jlhaslip

turn off the water supply and drain the system by opening a tap or two.
remove the valve in wuestion with wrenches.
cut hole about 1 1/2 "
place drywall
replace valve and turn on water (check for leaks)
cover hole with an escutcheon (sp) after tape/mud/paint if supply line is visible


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## Scuba_Dave

Itsdanf said:


> Also, I've been wondering how to get drywall over the attached shutoff. Figured I'd have to shut the water off and remove it when the day came -- same issue/concern for the sink shutoffs and drain


If its behind the counters I just cut a piece for the bottom, then put the matching piece on top
Small cut out for the pipe
Caulk/mud the 2 pieces together to seal them
I don't do any more soldering then I need to, especially if its a hidden pipe


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## Gary in WA

I'd replace the old supply valves with new 1/4 turn off/on ones if only for the fact yours are 30+ years old. Or at least new washers and stem packing.... Buy new poly flex supply lines and stainless steel flex for the clothes washer supplies, too. Keep up the good work!

Be safe, Gary


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## Itsdanf

I love 1/4 turn shutoffs, so will convert there whenever I can. Last year, when I installed our Insinkerator instant hot water system (got addicted to them years ago; missing it now!), I had to replace the kitchen sink cold water shutoff with a 3-way, I couldn't find a 1/4 turn valve. That was looking at the orange and blue big boxes. Since then, I've discovered the local plumbing supply shops. Never again! :no:

Not much progress today. Removed the insulation from the wall seciton with the foam board, removed the board, ripped off the plastic on both sides, and re-installed everything (thanks GBR for pointing out that I'd missed that point). Other than that, I put a bonding screw in my 2nd electric panel. Yup, lots of progress today! :whistling2:

...Okay, I also spent some time contemplating next steps: Fixing up electrical issues for both panels. What lighting scenarios we might want for the kitchen. Whether to jump into building my own cabinets. Will I tear down the "fur downs" (aka "sofits,", aka wasted space above wall cabinets). How to deal with the flooring. Timing, timing, timing......


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## Gary in WA

Chuckle...... that last picture must have been for me. Carry on........

Be safe, Gary


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## Scuba_Dave

Well, better its caught & fixed before the walls are closed in :thumbsup:

One reason we have left the kitchen for the end
We want to spend more time on it & make sure everything is in place that we want
Of course also had to build the sunroom & additiona as they border the kitchen & effect the finish

Undercabinet lights, trim, doors - we are making one of ours bigger
Knocked out a wall to the sunroom
Look at your entire kitchen & decide what you want to do
We've spent a lot of time looking at cabinets & layouts


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## Sheila4467

One thing I would like to add for those who are considering wall cabinet replacements.

If you have sofits, nothing much will change if you opt for cabintes "to the ceiling," however, if you DON'T already have sofits, and choose "To the ceiling" cabinets, you will have a very noticeable difference in the heat in your kitchen.

When we replaced our kitchen cabinets, we opted for wall cabinets that went to the ceiling, and the tempature in our kitchen, when we cooked, went WAY up because of the lost "heat holding space" over the cabinets.

The cabinets sent to heat right back into the kitchen. (entire room)

I realize that this is a small thing, but in our case, it was powerful enough to require us to add additional ventilation. 

The impact was awful, and this was in a room that was 14' wide, and 32' long. (Kitchen, table & chairs next to that, and family room next to that. 

By the time dinner was ready, no one wanted to sit at the table and eat.

Considering cabinets is a serious business, and I thought that I would share our experience. 

You have gotten so much done! Congratulations!:thumbsup::thumbup:
Keep it coming:thumbup:


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## Russ

Wow, looks like you have quite the winters project going.Since the whole cavity was open I would have replaced all the copper tubing, it looked like it needed to be done anyways. That way you would not have to worry about it sprouting another leak after you've seal it in. What's another $10 bucks in copper. Good luck


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## Big Bob

Not sure if you are aware, But there is gold in them there old breakers.

The "black market" is alive and well in fed pacific breakers.

I knew I had $ 600.00 + "retail" worth of braker in the old Fed Pacific box I was replacing with a Sqare D.

I put a $50.00 sticker on the old box and breakers at a garage sale. It was one of the first things to go.

Do not toss the old breakers in the trash..

have fun with your project.


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## Itsdanf

Russ said:


> Wow, looks like you have quite the winters project going.Since the whole cavity was open I would have replaced all the copper tubing, it looked like it needed to be done anyways. That way you would not have to worry about it sprouting another leak after you've seal it in. What's another $10 bucks in copper. Good luck


Well, guess that's so. I identified that the joint that leaked failed because the tube wasn't seated properly in the coupling. Evaluating the remaining couplings, it seemed that they were much more sound. I figure that, if they ain't broke, and don't seem like they're going down that road, don't fix it. 

I hope you don't ever have the opportunity to say "I told you so." :whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

Big Bob said:


> Not sure if you are aware, But there is gold in them there old breakers.
> 
> The "black market" is alive and well in fed pacific breakers.
> 
> I knew I had $ 600.00 + "retail" worth of braker in the old Fed Pacific box I was replacing with a Sqare D.
> 
> I put a $50.00 sticker on the old box and breakers at a garage sale. It was one of the first things to go.
> 
> Do not toss the old breakers in the trash..
> 
> have fun with your project.


Wow, I just checked out eBay, and saw over 400 hits for FP breakers. Maybe it's just me, but who would be so desparate as to buy USED breakers?? It is tempting to get some salvage bucks out of the panel, but I don't think I could sell these things in good conscience. After all, I'm getting rid of the panel because I'm CONCERNED THE BREAKERS WILL FAIL. I can't foist them upon someone else! 

It's a shame -- I could use the extra bucks... But nope, mine are destined for the trash. (Just to make sure, I might take a sledge to them first; wouldn't want a trash pilferer to make money when I'm avoiding it :no.


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## Sheila4467

You don't have to worry, they won't be USING them anyway. They will MELT THEM FOR THE GOLD!!! and those that buy them, make a LOT OF MONEY.

When you post in the auction that they are trash, that's all that is needed. The gold melters will outbid anyone that wants them anyway.

It's a good way to make money for some. People have been doing this for years and years.


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## Itsdanf

Sheila4467 said:


> You don't have to worry, they won't be USING them anyway. They will MELT THEM FOR THE GOLD!!! and those that buy them, make a LOT OF MONEY.
> 
> When you post in the auction that they are trash, that's all that is needed. The gold melters will outbid anyone that wants them anyway.
> 
> It's a good way to make money for some. People have been doing this for years and years.


I was overdue for learning my new thing for the day! Thanks, Sheila. When I yank that panel out, I guess I'll try selling the breakers on eBay or Craigslist. I'll disclose they're used and not safe (in case there are idiots out there), but might as well see if I can get a return... :yes:


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## Itsdanf

Today I just purchased a Ridgid R4511 table saw (the one with the granite top). Looks like I'm going to go the route of making my own cabinets. :thumbup:

I got a deal buying a floor model at a nearby orange box -- only one left in this region. It was missing the fence rails and safety guards, but they're ordering replacements to make the unit whole again. Saw delivers tomorrow (400lbs is too heavy for me to haul), and parts in a week or two. Can't wait to start slicing into some wood.

Of course, it would help to finalize plans on design. Still working on that. Also need to pin down a time to do the electrical panel swap-out. Shame I wasn't ready today -- hi temp was 70F. (Played golf instead :whistling2.


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## Scuba_Dave

There's real gold inside a breaker ? Since when ? 

Enough to make it worth while to strip it out ? :huh:


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## Big Bob

every body's breakers can one-day get old & "go bad".
the Fed Pacific panel & breakers served my 1908 house well for 40 + some years. The only reason I changed out the box was, I did a major remodel including the kitchen. Buying Fed breakers on the black market would have cost me more then the change out to a new Square D panel box and umpteen more breakers. AND I had good connections.

Trash the old breakers if you want, but you will be flushing $ and $ help to the guy that needs one, down the toilet.

Fed Pacific was bought out and dissolved only to shrink the market.. not because they had a bad product.

Do your neighbors a service and sell them cheap.

American capitalism at it's best.


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## Itsdanf

Big Bob said:


> every body's breakers can one-day get old & "go bad".
> the Fed Pacific panel & breakers served my 1908 house well for 40 + some years. The only reason I changed out the box was, I did a major remodel including the kitchen. Buying Fed breakers on the black market would have cost me more then the change out to a new Square D panel box and umpteen more breakers. AND I had good connections.
> 
> Trash the old breakers if you want, but you will be flushing $ and $ help to the guy that needs one, down the toilet.
> 
> Fed Pacific was bought out and dissolved only to shrink the market.. not because they had a bad product.
> 
> Do your neighbors a service and sell them cheap.
> 
> American capitalism at it's best.


Big Bob, I hear what you're saying. However, I've heard too many horror stories and talked to too many folks with direct experience with FPE failures. 

One example: Talked to a retired electrician last week who was working a repair job in the bathroom of a retailer. Breakers weren't marked, so he decided to simply trip the breaker by forcing a short. (I didn't say the guy was brilliant). The effort resulted in a blinding flash, his tool almost welded onto the short, and all the cash registers being shut down. The breaker never popped. He finally managed to pull back and break the short. His vision returned to normal later that day. He's a firm believer in the FPE legend.

You're the only one I've ever heard tout the praises of FedPac. I'm very greatful you had a good experience. I'm going to ensure my good experience by getting rid of the thing. :yes: I'm thinking more that, regardless of whether a purchaser is buying it for rare metals retrieval or to replace/supplement their FPE box, I'll go ahead and sell with an appropriate disclaimer. I can use the bucks, and they can make their own informed decision. (I'm also a firm believer in capitalism: whatever the market will bear! That's why I like eBay: Buyer decides what they're willing to pay).


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## Itsdanf

*Good News / Bad News*

Good news: The new Ridgid 4511 table saw got delivered this morning. The HD delivery driver was kind enough to help me get this over-400lb/182kg bad boy into the workshop. :thumbup:

Bad news: The 2nd photo shows the result of trapping your hand between a 400lb table saw and the door jamb. I knew table saws had to be handled with care, but I forgot that even applied to when they were unplugged and had a cardboard blade installed.  :laughing:

Next steps: Get the back-ordered replacement parts (fence rails, fence clamp, riving knife/blade guard assembly), true up the machine and finish up the design plan for the cabinets. (Okay, also will build a fence face, buy some saw blades and a stacked dado assembly…)


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## Sheila4467

AAAAAHHHHH I'm so EXCITED for you!!!

What a HONEY! Looks like you can do wonders with that one!!?:thumbsup:

I can't wait to see what you intend to make with your new Ridgid.

I have little information on table saws, and sure could use more information about this one. 

The only one I have ever used is my brothers, and I don't even know which one it is! 

I want a table saw so much, but have to wait on the room getting finished first. It's 9/10 finished being emptied, so it won't be too much longer.
That is, if you don't count the insulation, walls, paint, and a few minor things like that. :laughing::laughing:

Sorry about your hand, but with a saw like that one, it shouldn't take long to forget about it, like as soon as the saw gets turned on.:thumbup:

Congratulations! 

(I'm green with envy)


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## Itsdanf

*Quick Updates*

*Saw:* Discovered that my saw is on the recall list for a potential problem when using stacked dado assemblies. Ridgid is searching for a local company to send someone out to service it. They asked me not to use the saw in the meantime. Suits, as I don’t have the missing parts yet (fence rails, etc.). Also, discovered there’s a safety “key” that you can remove from the on/off switch, so that kids won’t turn the saw on, etc. Someone apparently took the key from my unit when at the store, so I can’t start the darn thing anyway! Another call to HD, and they got a Ridgid rep to call within 10 minutes to get my address for shipping. Meanwhile, I ordered a dado assembly through the internet (Oshlun SDS-0842 8-Inch 42-tooth Stack Dado Set with 5/8-Inch Arbor).

*Electrical:* I’ve continued work analyzing my existing circuits, in preparation for swapping out the electric panel. I did a spreadsheet, listing each circuit, and collecting wattage or amp details on every installed fixture (lights, fans, etc.), and everything plugged into outlets. Converting watts to amps, I was able to calculate the maximum possible amps on each circuit, and compare to the breaker rating. I was okay for most circuits, but one in particular bugged my eyes out: A 15A circuit that could potentially draw over 42 amps!  That’s if every light and ceiling fan on the circuit was on, the TV and stereo was going full blast, and I was running the vacuum at the same time. The breaker’s never popped, but since it’s a Federal Pacific panel, that gives me NO comfort! Breaking up that circuit with a couple new ones will be a prime objective.

Meanwhile, I talked to the Power Company (PoCo) about options for correcting the lack of a single “disconnecting means.” See related discussion: http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/neutral-grounds-separate-bus-bars-61645/. I even sent the PoCo technician this link, so he could track the whole discussion…. Hmm, maybe not the best idea. This same gentleman, who did the original inspection a couple weeks ago and said everything was set up great, is now stating that the double-lugging is NOT allowed. Not sure where this conversation will end up, but I’m hoping to keep the PoCo as an ally and not an adversary in this situation. We’ll see…

*Kitchen:* Back to it someday, I hope!


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## Scuba_Dave

I checked the local HD - no saws


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## Itsdanf

*Another update... but no real progress*

Been distracted with some unrelated things lately (some traveling, and pursuing an exit from retirement later this year - alas). Still, been trying to progress on some things:

*Saw*: Got the local Ridgid contractor out to look at the saw arbor under the recall. Unfortunately my Ridgid wrenches haven't arrived yet, and neither he nor I had a wrench skinny enough to fit inside to hold the arbor to tighten anything on to it. Without a wrench that could fit, he couldn't test or replace the arbor. He'll have to come back when the wrench arrives -- hopefully this week, but we'll see. Switch key and dado set arrived, but still haven't turned on the unit yet. 

*Electrical*: My contact at the PoCo has sluffed me off to a more-qualified expert; however, the new guy hasn't returned my calls yet. I'm really stuck until I can discuss with them, as the overall solution hinges on how to set up the meter box. I'll keep trying. Once we connect and resolve, I'll then diagram out the final solution, and probably post it in the Electrical section to get feedback. Then, it's buying all the required materials, scheduling a day (or two, just in case) to be without electricity while I fix everything, and then go for it!

*Kitchen*: Hard to even progress on planning, with the electrical problems overhanging everything. At least I've started a to-do list (which will eventually morph into a project plan, once I add a lot more detail). Here's the latest list:

· Finalize cabinet layout design
· Decide lighting scheme
· Decide cabinet materials/design
· Decide counter tops & backsplash
· Decide new appliances
· Remove laminate flooring and evaluate condition of tile flooring underneath; decide final solution (use tile, or remove/replace)
· Obtain plywood, wood, other materials
· Obtain drawer and hinge hardware
· Build cabinets
· Obtain new lighting fixtures
· Obtain new appliances
· Install new circuits for lighting
· Deconstruction:
o Remove cabinets (save for workshop), backsplashes, etc.
o Remove old wallpaper
o Remove soffits (OPTIONAL)
o Remove tile floor, if needed
· Repair drywall
· Scrape popcorn from ceiling
· Install new light fixtures
· Repair/mud ceiling (goal is to have flat ceiling)
· Prime & paint room
· Install new flooring (OPTIONAL)
· Install cabinets
· Install under-cabinet lighting
· Install trim (cabinet crown, kickboards, floor trim, etc.)
· Install new countertops
· Install back splash
· Install plumbing (sinks, disposal, insta-hot water, etc.)
· Install appliances

Funny how "Build cabinets" is just one small line item. :laughing:

Looks like progress will continue to be slow for the next few weeks, given delays and ongoing distractions. Still looking forward to starting some actual action (and having some photos to post).


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## Itsdanf

*Table saw saga continues...*

Well, the saw parts showed up yesterday! 

Alas, certain critical parts apparently weren't included in the order compiled by HD. No screws/bolts/washers. Missing piece to connect the two front fence rail pieces. No front rail mounting bracket. Etc. I took a detailed inventory of what I didnt' have (using downloaded owner manual), and my HD contact agreed to order the remaining pieces pronto.

Meanwhile, with saw wrenches in hand, I had the Ridgid contractor return today to work on the arbor. Tested it, and it passed -- no repair required. 

Saw milestone: Finally turned the darn thing on! Sweet!!! :thumbup: With a 400+ granite table top, the thing runs SMOOTH. 

Meanwhile, waiting for the rest of the parts.


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## Lali

OUCH! That musta hurt! And imagine a blue streak was emitted at the time of injury.:cursing: Great details! Keep up the good work.


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## sbmfj

excellent thread. I really admire your electricl plans, Id like to try and do the same for my place.....One day


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## shumakerscott

*Saw*

That is on great looking saw. Your fence will be the key item for accurate cuts. dorf dude...


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## Itsdanf

*Prep for Electrical Work – Final Phases*

I finally meet again with the Power Company (PoCo) folks to review my meter setup situation. The good news is that, except for the double-lugging of the sub-panel supply line to the meter box (inherited, not my handiwork!), everything else is okay on their side.

So here’s the situation: I need to replace my main load center (circuit breaker box), plus fix the improper wiring to the sub-panel in the workshop. Details are in previous posts in this thread, and documented in a separate thread in the Electrical section at Neutral & grounds on separate bus bars?. I’ve finally decided on the following:

· Keep the same location of the main LC, despite it being in a half-bath over the toilet. Due to layout of the upper floor and lack of a basement, it’s just too difficult to relocate the box to a better-suited location (alas).
· Sub the panel in the workshop to the main LC in a traditional manner (instead of other options discussed in the Electrical thread). The sub’s currently supplied directly from the meter box with wires double-lugged to the meter (see photo).
· Route the sub-panel supply wires from the main LC into the attic, then through the siding outside to connect to the existing conduit run (see photo). Will recycle as may conduit pieces as possible (to save a few measly bucks).
· Will try to use existing sub-panel supply lines, just adding a ground wire. Will try to fish the ground through the conduit without removing/reloading the existing wire. If the existing wire is too short to reach the main LC, I’ll have to buy new lengths for all four wires (yuck).

Because this will be a lot of work for me (and my wife/assistant), I’m planning this in two phases: 1) Replace main LC; 2) re-wire sub-panel. It’d be great if both could be accomplished in a day, but main goal is to restore power to the main house in the same day (before the PoCo folks quit for the day). I can stand to finish the sub-panel the next day, if necessary.


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## Itsdanf

*Prep for Electrical Work – Final Phases (Cont’d)*

My “current” setup (no pun intended :whistling2 is a 200A meter service, a 200A main panel (in the Electrical thread, I erroneously stated it was a 100A panel; I’ve learned a lot since then…), and a 100A second panel wired directly to the meter box via double-lugging. 

I’ve used an electrical load calculator spreadsheet (obtained online thru a posting made by Scuba_Dave – thanks!) to evaluate my service needs, and I’m still okay with 200A service. Thus, I don’t have to upgrade the meter box or anything – a relief!

For this immediate project, I’m not focused on adding or changing circuits. I’ll have my hands full with just replacing the box with no additional changes (except the sub-panel wiring, of course).

I’ve currently got nine 240V circuits, taking two full slots in the panel. The feed to the sub will take up two more full slots. A 200A panel can only have 40 circuits, but with the 240V breakers taking up 20 slots, that only leaves 20 remaining circuits available. I currently have 16 120V circuits, leaving me with only 4 additional circuits left for future use. I expect I’ll use most of them before the kitchen remodel and other work is finished. Meanwhile, I’m shopping for a 200A load center that has at least 30 full slots and 40 total circuits. I expect to use half-slot breakers for all the 120V circuits. I could go with 40 full slots, but at over 39” in height, they’re just too big to fit! A 30-slot box will already be 12” higher than my existing box.

Anyway, I’m down to the final price comparisons between Square-D, GE, Siemens, or Homelite (by Square-D). I’m leaning toward the Homelite, just for cost savings.

Also, I’m looking to replace most of the 120V breakers with AFCI’s (not for kitchen, utility room, garage or bathrooms). Adds to the cost, but brings me up more-current NEC standards – and the extra protection from arc faults is a good thing to have! :yes:


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## Itsdanf

*Prep for Electrical Work – Final Phases (Cont’d)*

I’ve been working on a detailed to-do list, to figure out everything I’ll need to accomplish, and help assure I’ve covered all my bases. While the power’s out, I don’t want to waste time trying to figure out next steps, or be making twelve trips to stores to get supplies or tools I didn’t think about ahead of time.

Here’s the latest draft. *Any feedback would be appreciated*:

Prior to Load Center Replacement Day:
·Contact PoCo and schedule shut-off/meter removal
·Obtain all parts required (load center, breakers, separate ground bar for sub, protector rings and clamps for punch-outs, part to seal conduit hole in side of meter box, etc.)
·Verify that all required specialty tools (for opening/closing lugs, stripping large wire, etc.) are on hand
·Cut out drywall above and below old box, to access wires
·Drill holes in wall sill above main box (for routing the sub-panel supply wires through to the attic)
·Scope out height to install new box, based on lengths of existing wires
·Determine whether longer service feed wires will be required; obtain if needed
·Determine whether all existing circuit wires will reach new connections; adjust planned box and breaker slot positions as needed
·Punch out holes in new box for all incoming wires, and confirm that all edge protectors and wire clamps are on hand
·Lay out all tools and supplies in work area the night before installation

Day of Load Center Replacement:
·Open garage door
·String extension cord from neighbor and route to workspace
·Have PoCo shut off all power and remove meter
·Disconnect double-lugged service feeds in meter box, and reconnect single main service feed wires 
·Remove sub-pane supply line and conduit connection from meter box (support conduit temporarily against wall; see Sub-Panel Re-Wiring section below)
·Seal conduit hole on side of meter box with appropriate product
·In old main load center, label service feed wires and disconnect from main shutoff
·Label and disconnect main grounding wire
·Label and disconnect all hot wires connected to breakers
·Disconnect all wires from neutral/ground bars (no need to label)
·Unclamp and remove all wires from box
·Remove box
·Install new box into wall
·Clamp service feed wires into box
·Connect Service feed wires to main breaker/bus lugs
·Clamp main ground wire into box, and connect to ground bar
·Clamp all remaining circuit wires into box
·Connect hot wires to breakers, and connect breakers
·Connect neutrals, grounds onto bars
·Leave all breakers on “off” position
·DOUBLE-CHECK ALL CONNECTIONS
·Request PoCo re-install meter and re-initiate power
·Flip on breakers one at a time
·Document the new configuration of all circuits in the new load center

Sub-Panel Re-Wiring:
·Remove section of drywall above panel box to facilitate wire access
·Remove bonding screw
·Install ground bus bar
·Cut conduit:
oCut 1’ above 90˚ coupling with access panel (currently connected to meter box)
oCut horizontal run just to right of 90˚ elbow on left (meter) side
·Remove wire from unsecured conduit pieces
·Fish through secured conduit (from open cut end of horizontal run to access panel on shop side)
·Attach grounding wire to fish and pull through conduit
·Cut hole in siding to receive conduit entrance into attic
·Fish all four panel supply wires through loose 90˚ coupling with access panel
·Insert wire and 90˚ coupling into attic; secure with clamping screw
·Attach 90˚ coupling to horizontal conduit, using coupling ring
·On sub-panel side, route grounding wire into sub-panel, and connect to ground bar
·Attach all circuit ground wires to ground bar
·Leave sub-panel shutoff switch off
·DOUBLE-CHECK ALL CONNECTIONS
·On main LC side, route four sub-panel supply lines from attic to main LC
·Connect supply lines to 100A breaker
·Turn on 100A breaker 
·Turn on sub-panel switch
·Have a beer :drink:

Clean-up:
·Attach panel covers for main LC and sub-panel
·Attach temporary plywood covers to open spaces above/below panels
·Eventually, replace plywood with drywall patches, and finish (mud, sand, prime, paint)


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## Lali

Now, that's a list! Looks like you've got everything pretty much covered and then some. Not that I would know where to begin...:no: Except, maybe, flip the breakers off:laughing:!!!


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## seawiz

Looks like things are coming along. Good luck with everything, that is quite a list!


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## Itsdanf

Lali said:


> Now, that's a list! Looks like you've got everything pretty much covered and then some. Not that I would know where to begin...:no: Except, maybe, flip the breakers off:laughing:!!!


Flipping off the breakers is ALWAYS a good start! 

I apologize for being overly wordy in my previous posts. Part of me is trying to show that I know what I'm doing. Another part is worried I don't, and is looking for confirmation from the experts. Another part wants to share the thought process and details for those who may be treading the same path.

Perhaps I'm dealing with too many parts... :yes:


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## Lali

> I apologize for being overly wordy in my previous posts.


No need to apologize. Details are alwayz good.



> Part of me is trying to show that I know what I'm doing.


Most of us like to think we do. (know what we're doing, that is)



> Another part is worried I don't,


Ahhh, there's that alter ego creeping in...



> and is looking for confirmation from the experts.


We all need encouragement & praise from time to time; it's what gives us that extra little 'push' or 'boost' to succeed at what we're doing.



> Another part wants to share the thought process and details for those who may be treading the same path.


And that's the best part; sharing your knowledge with followers.



> Perhaps I'm dealing with too many p:yes:arts...


No, it just means you are a multi-tasked, multi-talented, detail-oriented kinda person!!!


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## Itsdanf

The weather's been warmer here, so I thought I'd go out today and buy the load center and other parts to change out my circuit breaker box next week. Yipee, ready to make some progress!

...however. Took a closer look at the service feed from the meter socket box. The meter box is attached to the outside brick wall, and a nipple (2" metal tube with threads on each end) connects the back of the meter box, through the wall, to the back of my inside load center -- through which the service wires travel (see photo on post #28; service wires enter in upper-left of back of panel). The old box is 24" tall. The new box will be 39" tall. There's NO WAY to connect the existing nipple to the new box through an available cutout in the new box without having a serious alignment problem -- either forcing me to install the box too high or too low. Because the load center mounts flush into the wall, there's no room behind it to route the service wires higher and keep the box flush with the wall.

ARGH!!! 

The only way I can see to fix this: Use conduit within the wall cavity to move the service wires up to a higher level. Then fur out the studs a couple inches to frame a new opening for the load center to mount into. Then drywall around the opening to minimize the ugly mess! Not a lovely sight for a finished guest/half-bath!

Very frustrating, but I can't think of another solution. I wanted to accomplish the load center swap in one day (to avoid a night without electricity). However, adding the extra conduit work and framing needed to fur-out an accurate opening is yet more to do in a limited time! I might have to plan a 48-hour project after all.....


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## Itsdanf

Okay, figured out the way to get the electrical panel out of the bathroom!! :thumbup:

I'm putting it on the stairwell landing, which has enough space to meet NEC requirements (see http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/new-location-main-panel-67196/ for the related discussion on the Electrical thread). 
Good stud location for panel placement, great access from the attic, and closer to where the current circuit wires go into the old panel -- letting me re-wire most circuits to the new panel without having to splice the wires (except for 5 circuits that enter the old panel from below, instead of from the attic).

So I'll be buying the panel and supplies early this week, and doing the actual job either late this week or early next week.

I'm just glad to be moving on this project again! :yes:

I wanted to save the bookcase, if possible. Removing it was fairly straight-forward. I removed the bottom doors, and pried off the trim pieces framing the case. I thought I could just pull the case out from the wall, but it was nailed to the side walls from the inside of the case with a couple trim nails. I couldn't pull them out or cut them, so I just got a nail set, and hammered them all the way through the wood -- problem solved.


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## Itsdanf

Well, the guys on the electrical thread (and my wife) convinced me to change the panel location to the wall where the eagle picture is hanging (see post #69). It will be more work routing wires and conduit through studs and insulation to the panel, but will allow me to put the built-in shelf back in its original location. :thumbup:

After researching pricing at both big-box stores and local electrical supply shops, I determined that my best price for breakers and PVC conduit was the blue box (I’m getting Square-D, which the orange box doesn’t carry); however, I get a better price for wires and EMT conduit at a local electrical supply shop. So today I went to the blue box and made the first big purchase: panel, bunch of breakers, PVC conduit parts (for sub-panel wires), grounding rod and other parts (see photo). About $650 of supplies right there -- and more to come. 

I also purchased a small 125A main lug panel. I’ll strip out the insides, and use this as a junction box in the attic. I need to splice attic-originating circuit wires in order to reach the new panel location, and I can’t splice them in the old panel box (no room to route the new romex back up through the top plate to the attic). I might return it if I can get a cheaper junction box at the elec supply store.

Tonight I’ll start tearing out drywall in the new panel location, so I can determine how many studs I’ll have to drill through. I’ll also make final measurements for wire, which I’ll hopefully be purchasing tomorrow. I plan to set up as much wiring in the new box as possible, running wires and conduit installation through the walls to the attic above the old panel. Then, the day I actually have the POCO shut the power, I’ll focus on completing conduit runs and splicing a bunch of wires. If I do a good job of pre-wiring, I might actually finish both the main and sub-panel setups (but probably not…. :whistling2: ).


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## Itsdanf

I've been working a lot with the great guys on the Electrical thread (New location for main panel). Lots of interesting discussions with pictures/diagrams there, if you're interested in those details. It's really been a challenge figuring out how to get the power lines from the meter to the new panel location, while remaining code-compliant. But I do want to do this right, so I'll keep working at it until there's a clear path forward.


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## downrightart

Man, this thread was worth the read and time! I mean, it has everything! Drama, blood, humor, and patience! Was there any domestic violence? :laughing:

What a great job Dan! I'm impressed! :thumbup:


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## Itsdanf

downrightart said:


> Man, this thread was worth the read and time! I mean, it has everything! Drama, blood, humor, and patience! Was there any domestic violence? :laughing:
> 
> What a great job Dan! I'm impressed! :thumbup:


Thanks! No domestic violence... - yet. :laughing: 

(There might be, if I don't eventually get back to working on the kitchen. My wife can swing a mean golf club.  )


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## Itsdanf

Since finalizing my approach to the pesky details of the new panel setup (with tremendous help from the great guys in the Electrical forum), I've been busy with final purchases of supplies. I've now got all the breakers, wire, connectors, etc., that I think I'll need. I'm now working on doing as much setup as possible, prior to _THE DAY_ when the electricity turned off to make the final panel switch.

Because I have five MWBC's (multiple wire branch circuits) in my house (where one "3-wire" cable (two hots, one neutral, and one ground) from the breaker panel, with the two hots connected to separate breakers, is routed to a section of the house, then split into two separate circuits -- one for each hot wire, sharing the common neutral), I only have to deal with 20 cables for my 25 circuits! :thumbup:

I worked on the junction box I'm putting in the attic, which will handle 13 cable splices. The box didn't have enough punch-outs in it, so I had to buy a knockout punch set to make more. It worked very well: Drill a 3/8" pilot hole, then insert the punch set into the hole and screw on the cutter. After hand-tightening, tighten with 8 turns of the wrench. Viola, perfect holes! Even with the extra holes, I'll still have to clamp two cables through some of the holes, but that should work fine.


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## Itsdanf

Also today, I pounded in the 8 foot copper grounding rod into the earth. Photos below show with 2 feet in, and all the way in. I started with a hand sledge, and ended with a full sledge hammer. Not something I'd want to do every day!! :no:

I also finished drilling holes through the studs that will carry the circuit wires to the new panel location (see bottom of studs in photo). 

Tomorrow I hope to mount the new panel and the junction box. Before I can start wiring between the two, I'll need to set up the conduit for the main service feed (1.5" EMT) and the sub-panel feed (1.25" PVC). Should be fun.... :whistling2:


----------



## Scuba_Dave

I hope you put the grounding connector on the rod before using the sledge


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## Itsdanf

Scuba_Dave said:


> I hope you put the grounding connector on the rod before using the sledge


No, of course not. That would be, like, smart! :whistling2:

Fortunately I didn't mangle the top of the rod too much, and the acorn clamp fit on fine.


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## Itsdanf

I got the new panel mounted today. Took a few tries: One, to measure where to drill the hole for the sub-panel conduit (going straight back from the panel, thru the siding to the outside); another for "final" install; and yet another, because I forgot that I couldn't fit the conduit to the panel from outside, since the hole wasn't large enough for the panel connector piece. Third time's a charm.

In the 2nd photo, you can see where the conduit exits the house, at the top fo the ladder. I attached a "LB" fixture (similar to the LB that currently connects the conduit into the side of the meter box). On the day I do the final swap, I'll cut the existing conduit, add a 90* turn upwards, and connect it to the LB. The tricky part will be cutting the conduit WITHOUT cutting the wires inside!

I've scheduled the power shutoff with the POCO for Thursday AM, with reconnection occuring Thurs PM (assuming I stay on schedule; otherwise, it's overnight without power). I'm a bit stressed now, because I HAVE to finish all my remaining prep tasks by tomorrow night. It shouldn't be a problem, but you never know what surprises or slowdowns you'll run into.

Getting close to completing this part of the adventure! More photos tomorrow...


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## Itsdanf

Got everything done today for tomorrow's power-down. New panel is fully wired for circuits, with cables numbered and routed to junction box in attic. Panel is grounded. I temporarily shut off the old panel and numbered all the wires. Added separate ground bus bar to sub-panel, and moved all grounds to it (kept the bonding screw in, since it's not going to be a true sub-panel until rewired from the meter socket to the new main panel). Ran extension cords to neighbors to power fridge, freezer and battery charger.

Mission tomorrow: After power-down, pull wire feeds from old panel into attic and connect in junction box (for wires fed from bottom of panel, splice in old panel and feed to new panel directly). Finish routing EMT conduit to old panel, to feed service lines from meter, to old panel, through conduit to new panel. If time, also wire up sub-panel (or wait until next day; not critical for having POCO power back up).

Too tired to post photos today -- and I imagine it will be the same story tomorrow. I'll probably catch up with an update and photos on the weekend, after a few cold ones to celebrate a successful transition to the new panel. :drink: I hope...


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## Itsdanf

Okay, the ordeal is substantially over! :thumbup: Electricity is restored, house didn't burn down, I still have all limbs and appendages, life is good.

Before sharing events of the past two days, here are some photos related to the previous posting. You can see the new panel was wired up as much as possible (everything excluding the sub-panel breaker/feed wires). Cables (with numbered labels on the end) were routed to the attic. Those to be spliced in the attic were fed into the mounted junction box. The remaining were left loose, awaiting feed down the wall to the old panel, where they'd be spliced when the way was cleared. Finally, I cut open the drywall above the old panel, and labeled all the wires in the panel. 

Nothing more to be done until the power was cut the next morning.


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## Itsdanf

How do they cut the power? Simple: They cut the wires! The POCO guy simply cut the wires feeding into the weatherhead (didn't bother turning them off at the transformer) with a big bolt cutter. He then clamped on some splice fittings, to make re-connection easier. He left the ground/neutral wire connected, since it wasn't carrying any current.

And, of course, he removed the meter.


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #1: Busted meter socket*

One of my first tasks was to disconnect the wires from the meter socket. You can see how the sub-panel wires were double-lugged using split-bolt clamps -- except the neutral wire, which was just laid atop the main-house neutral and clamped (already removed in photo).

However, I had to really struggle to unscrew the clamp on the lower-left of the fixture. I was afraid the bolt would strip, but... the plastic gave out first! :furious::furious: Gads, this was gonna really blow the timeline!

Called the POCO. They said I had to buy a new meter socket from them. Sent my wife to get it while I continued other work. The new box was about an inch taller than the last one. :furious: This meant I'd have to not only change the box, but also disconnect and relocate the mast and weatherhead!

However, I noticed the brands were the same, and the innerds looked almost the same -- just that the new socket had wire support clamps built into the socket, while the old one had supports built into the box. I took the new socket out of the box, took it apart to remove the supports, reassembled it and installed it into the old box. Voila! No problem. :thumbsup:

[By the way: The POCO guy who re-initiated power said that, if I'd just left the busted socket there, he would have swapped it out for me -- for free! Rats....]


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #2: Caulked wires*

While awaiting the new socket box, I disconneted everything in the old panel, gutted the box, and went into the attic to pull the cables up.

...huh, nope.

Went back downstairs and looked closer. Where the cables went up through the wall top plates, someone had filled all the holes with caulk!  :furious: I mean, this stuff was rock-hard, and about 3 inches deep.

Another time buster. We (by which, I mean primarily my dear wife) spent hours chiseling out caulk, pinch by pinch, until each cable could finally be yanked up into the attic. While she did this, I worked on splicing the cables already released.


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #3: EMT conduit too short*

When all the cables were finally liberated and spliced into the junction box, it was time to drill a hole in the top plate for the EMT conduit that would contain the new service wires. Once done, I then needed to drop EMT conduit down the wall and connect it to the pieces I'd previously cut and connected to the bottom of the new panel.

...uh, nope.

The piece I'd previously cut and fit between the two walls was about 6 inches too short! :furious::furious: 

(Yeah, I know: Measure twice, blah, blah, blah...) :wallbash:

So I took the remaining length of EMT I had, drove to the muffler shop, caught them just before they closed, and they put a 20˚ bend on the end (just like they'd graciously done before; no way to bend 1 1/2" EMT without the right machinery).

Long story short: After much struggling and grunting, we got the EMT put together, with everything fitting! :thumbsup:

Next step was to route the 2/0 wires through the EMT, with two countering 90˚ bends. I'm here to tell you: 2/0 wires don't like to go through pipe! Thank goodness that I decided, after the muffler shop, to drop by a big box store and get some cable lubricant. I just had a feeling... -- and I was right! I don't think we'd have made it without the slippery stuff!

[By the way: I mentioned the muffler shop was closing -- at 5pm. The timeline was officially shot, and there was no way to get the power restored that day -- even if I did want to pay for an after-hours service call; I could only do this until 9:30pm, and there was still too much to do. That night, we dined by candlelight.]


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #4: One wire too short*

I continued working throughout the evening/night, mostly splicing wires. If I never see a wing nut again, my aching fingers will be very happy!

However, when I finally dropped the cables from the attic to the old panel, one was too short, by a foot! ARGH, here we go again!!!!:furious::furious:

This 10/2 cable was one of the last ones I had routed. You can see in the photo that I didn't use the most economical path for the routing through the wall. Fortunately I had one unused hole at the top of the left-most stud. I disconnected the wires from the panel, re-fed the cable through the unused hole, and reconnected everything. I pulled the extra slack into the attic, and.....JUST had enough length to enter the box and make the splice! :thumbsup:

I finished all the splices, except for two: A 60A circuit with #6 NM, and a #6 ground wire (connecting the old panel's ground to the new panel; this was to assure all hidden grounds within the wall, like to plumbing, A/C, etc., were kept sound). I'd bought the wrong split-bolt clamps for these, and needed bigger sizes. Would have to wait until morning, as nobody was open at 1am. :whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #5: Sub's ground wire too short*

Up in the morning of the 2nd day, breakfast at McD's, hit the big box on the way home for the splice clamps, and back to work!

After completing the splices and calling the POCO to come re-start power ("we should have someone there sometime this afternoon"), I started working on the sub-panel re-wiring. I managed to cut the existing PVC conduit without damaging the wires. :thumbsup: Before I could add the new PVC sections, I had to route a #6 green ground wire through the existing tube. Okay, we experienced the standard challenges of trying to fish anything, but no serious problems. 

...however...

The ground wire was 3 feet too short! :furious::furious: I'm beginning to see an uncomfortable trend here, but this was going to be the last wire or cable run, so this "short" thing (which can give a guy a complex; just sayin') shouldn't recur again.

Meanwhile, a quick trip to the electrical supply shop. Guy brought me 4 feet (nope, I wasn't going to be short again), and started ringing it up. Then he shook his head and said "Here, just take it. It'd cost me more to ring it up than just give it to you." Yipee! (Hey, two bucks is two bucks...)

Fortunately I had one properly-sized split-bolt clamp left over from the 4 I bought in the morning. Had to do a bit of fishing to route the ground wire to the sub-panel box (no, they didn't route the conduit all the way to the box like they should have), but got 'er done!

Routed the feed lines through the new PVC (again, thank goodness for the lube!), and fed it into the new panel.


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #6: A differnt kind of "short"*

In the middle of dealing with the sub-panel wiring/conduit, the POCO showed up to re-connect the power. Once wired up, I went to the main panel to start flipping breakers. Started with the main, then worked my way down the panel with individual breakers.

Worked fine until I got to my 2nd 30A breaker. When I flipped it on, I saw a flash off to the right, and the breaker engaged (turned off).

...uh, that wasn't good. 

After a bit of investigation, I was able to trace to the problem: I'd tightened a clamp too much for the attic junction box, shorting the cable. When I flipped on the breaker, the short was powerful enough to burn through the clamp strap! Fortunately nothing caught fire!!

I had enough slack in the cable, so I disconnected it, cut it off before the short, re-fed it into the junction box (without tightening the clamp so much this time :whistling2: ), and re-connected the splice. 

2nd time's a charm! Started the power-up again, and all the breakers engaged fine -- except for one 20A AFCI breaker, which wouldn't stay on. Had to leave that one for later, and get back to work finishing the sub wiring.


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## Itsdanf

*PROBLEM #7: Where's the neutral??*

So, when it was time to hook up the sub-panel wires into the main panel, I discovered another problem: My white tape I'd put on the neutral wire had apparently been removed during the process of pulling the wires through the new conduit (had to tape on a pull rope, and removing that tape apparently removed my marker tape). 

I pulled out a long piece of spare Romex cable, and ran it from the main panel to the sub. While my wife held one wire against the neutral wire at the sub, I used my multimeter to determine which wire on my side completed a circuit and was the neutral at the main panel. Once ID'd, clamping the two hots to the 100A breaker was a relative breeze, as was clamping the neutral onto the lug I'd previously installed on the neutral/ground bus bar.

The sub-panel powered up just fine -- and my panel wiring was finished! :thumbup:


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## Itsdanf

*FINAL PROBLEM: Problem AFCI circuit*

Actually, I haven't figured this one out yet. There's nothing wrong with the new lines/splices I made (tested that thoroughly), so the problem's in the original wiring along the circuit. There's no way to tell whether the breaker's breaking due to an AFCI problem or a short. The circuit contains two light switches and 7 outlets -- all of which were unengaged when I tried to start up. Taking apart the outlets and switches has been interesting (saw some weird wiring --one definitely NOT to code!), but haven't figured out the problem yet. There's wiring between both sides of a wall, and I have to trace how things are routing. May end up having to break open the wall (one side is a HVAC utility closet, so might not be too 
aesthetically damaging).

But overall, I'm quite pleased with the way things turned out. 

Next steps:
- Finish trouble-shooting the AFCI circut
- Secure all the cables in the attic (should be stapled a ways out before entering the junction box)
- Run some extra 12/2 cable from the panel to the attic, in preparation for future additional circuits (best do that now, before the walls are closed)
- Drywall all the wall openings
- Add the panel cover to the new panel
- Lots of misc clean-up

Then later, after a few celebratory brews (and maybe a round of golf), start thinking again about getting back to the kitchen!!


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## Klawman

Very impressive, Itsdanf. I hadn't noticed this thread before and came across it just now. You do good work and I am learning a lot of practical what to do and what not to do for when I do my much simpler sub-panel (if i ever have the time). 

I made special note not to overtighen any box clamps about NM.

Question. On another thread you asked about how much material could be bored out of the wall studs and there was some discussion about doubling them or using a metal shoe.

a. From what I can see you haven't drilled that close to the edge of the studs, but is there a problem caused by the number of holes bored vertically above each other?
b. I doubt that any is "required" but are you going to protect the nm where it passes through those studs with nails shields (not what they are called but I think you will know what I mean) on the outside of the studs?
c. Is there some requirement that those cables are supposed to be fastened within X inches of the panel, usually stapled to a stud or a board on which the panel is mounted? If you have them clamped to the panel that may fill the bill. Just asking.

Anyway, congratulations. You seem to be nearing the end of a tough job.


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## Itsdanf

Klawman said:


> Very impressive, Itsdanf. I hadn't noticed this thread before and came across it just now. You do good work and I am learning a lot of practical what to do and what not to do for when I do my much simpler sub-panel (if i ever have the time).
> 
> I made special note not to overtighen any box clamps about NM.


Thanks! You'll probably learn more from my mistakes than my successes... -- but that still works! :laughing:



Klawman said:


> Question. On another thread you asked about how much material could be bored out of the wall studs and there was some discussion about doubling them or using a metal shoe.
> 
> a. From what I can see you haven't drilled that close to the edge of the studs, but is there a problem caused by the number of holes bored vertically above each other?


I couldn't find a rule about a maximum number of bored holes -- just that they should be aligned vertically, not side-by-side, etc. Regardless, I had NO options. Top of the panel was pressed up against the top plate, and the lowest hole was bored a few inches above the bottom of the stud resting on the bottom plate (which is above the landing level; the two photos below show top and bottom plates). It was tough enough just getting all the cables routed through in the available area of stud. 

I'm also challenged because I have 4 remaining slots, and I want to run four 12/2 NM cables from the panel to the attic for future use; however, I have to figure out how to squeeze them through the remaining holes (somehow).



Klawman said:


> b. I doubt that any is "required" but are you going to protect the nm where it passes through those studs with nails shields (not what they are called but I think you will know what I mean) on the outside of the studs?


Yes, definitely. I think the holes are deep enough to avoid reaching by drywall screws or casual nailing, but I'm not taking any chances.



Klawman said:


> c. Is there some requirement that those cables are supposed to be fastened within X inches of the panel, usually stapled to a stud or a board on which the panel is mounted? If you have them clamped to the panel that may fill the bill. Just asking.


I think there's a rule about being "supported," which usually means stapling. However, I seem to recall reading that NM routed through stud holes are considered "supported" (maybe just for remodel work, can't remember). I could be totally wrong on this, but.... :whistling2: ...in my case, those cables are as good as stapled in those holes (almost all holes are doubled-up, so they're somewhat snug). 

I noted in my last post that I still have to secure the cables in the attic going into the junction box. I'm thinking that excessive movement might have contributed to the short I created from the too-tight clamp. When I get up there to start stapling, I think I'll shut down the panel first, minimize any movement of the cables when I staple them, and then individually start up the circuits again. After that one POP, I want to be very careful with the rest! :yes:

Thanks for the positive feedback and good questions.


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## Klawman

What can I say. I would much rather learn from your mistakes than my own, and I don't think you have made few and no important ones. Why I am horsing around trying to clean 20 years of crap out of my garage, which is a lot more of a job than installing the sub will be, I am looking into replacing the breakers for the hose with AFCI combos.

Meanwhile, I talked with Ed and might be getting my TS-Aligner in a few weeks.

By the way, nice house.


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## Itsdanf

ARGH! CHANGE OF PLANS!

I've been happily retired, but still "young" and not financially independent. The one new career opportunity I've been pursuing has suddenly rushed upon me. I start my new career in late-June -- working for most of you! I'm joining the US State Department as a Foreign Service Officer, and will be working in embassies around the world as a diplomat.

Alas, this will seriously deter from my ongoing projects in my humble abode here in Texas.

Also, I'll now be rushed to bring the disrupted kitchen into some semblance of order before I deploy -- not to mention finishing the electrical project cleanup! Now, instead of being in a leisurely retiree existence, I'm now having to get a LOT done in a SHORT period of time!

So, the new kitchen plan: Scrap the whole-kitchen remodel. Focus on building a cabinet to replace the one I demo'd to fix the original leak. Let my wife handle outsourcing the rest of the reconstruction work (counter tops, backsplash, new kitchen sink, etc.) while I'm off for training.

And this was going to be such a fun project. Oh well..........


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## gmhammes

Well congrats on the new career atleast!!


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## Sheila4467

Congratulations! It's nice to see people getting jobs.

I wish you all the best.


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## drtbk4ever

Congrats Itsdanf,

Even though the project may not be a complete DIY, please make sure to post back how it turns out.


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## cocobolo

Nothing like a little "instant pressure" to get things moving is there!


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## Itsdanf

Just back from a 2 week vacation (Ozarks in N. Arkansas and Branson, MO), and a week visiting my post-op mother (full knee replacement -- yuck, but she's recovering remarkably). Not much time to work 'round the house -- and the clock's ticking!

Before vacation, I went back up to the attic to staple down all the cables going into the mega junction box. All's nice and tidy now. Before I started, I cut the main breaker. Moving so many live cables around clamped to the box, I didn't want to experience another short UP CLOSE. :whistling2: Fortunately, no more shorts.:thumbsup:

Today I went back to work trying to find the short in one of my circuits (never popped a breaker on my FPE panel, but immediately popped the AFCI breaker in the new box). It's been driving me crazy, because some of the wiring was "irregular," and I figured there HAD to be a hidden junction somewhere. Yup, finally isolated a place and broke open the drywall, finding a hidden junction mess. I finally isolated the errant cable (never found the short location or cause), and re-cabled around it. Since I broke into the drywall from within an HVAC closet, I didn't bother re-drywalling; I just used plywood (my wife called it "plywall" :laughing, and put a junction box into that. Once I paint it, the plywall will never be noticed.

Bought a texturing brush (to use when replacing drywall around the old and new panels), which I hope matches the existing texture sufficiently.

Hopefully more progress soon.


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## Itsdanf

...and THANKS everyone for the positive comments about my exiting retirement!

Dan

PS: Not much done today. Weather was too good, so we HAD to go for a long ride on the motorcycles! (No work photos today, so bike pics attached; hers is black, mine's white). Wired four extra 12/2 Romex cables from the electric panel to the attic, so the wall won't have to be busted out in the future to add new circuits. Bought a new ceiling fan for the master bedroom (old one's shot); I'll be using a new circuit to power it, as the circuit the current one's on is overloaded. Kitchen?? Still planning.... :whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

Another distraction project thrown into the mix (which is fine; any excuse to put off drywall worrk).

Our main living room originally had exposed rough-sawn cedar beams on the cathedral ceiling, with a very dark stain finish. The prior owner was paint-crazy, painting almost everything in off-white -- including the exposed cedar beams! 

Ever since we moved in, we've been trying to solve this aesthetic problem. Obviously we had to paint. My original thought was to use a paint-and-glaze approach, to try to keep the beams looking like stained wood. Of course, alas, they would always look painted if examined closely.

However, we had a hard time finding paint the color of wood. After all, nobody wants to paint interior walls brown! To help us describe to the paint store guy the shades of brown we were looking for, we used the color samples they had for stain products. 

Stain?  Hmmm.......

Yup, decided to take a small can of Minwax stain (8 fl oz/1/2 pint) home, and see if we could _stain the paint_. Tested an isolated spot, and...it worked great! The crap paint they had used took the stain quite readily -- and the result looked like stained wood, not painted wood! :thumbup:

The attached photos show 1) first try, with only one beam stained; 2) the finished job with all beams stained; and 3) & 4) close-ups. Although I would have selected a darker stain in hindsight (the white paint caused the final shade to be a bit lighter than expected), my wife is VERY pleased (and therefore, of course, so am I).

Oh, and the best part: That one dinky can of stain did the whole 26.5'x24.5' room!!! Apparently the thin layer of paint didn't soak up too much stain. Just over $4 to accomplish. Sweet.


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## Itsdanf

So now to drywalling the wall around the new electrical panel. 

First I put in insulation hardboard on the back of the cavities -- except directly below the panel. I should have put it in before wiring, because there was no way to insert rigid board now. 

I then insulated with paper-backed pink stuff, except the far-right cavity. It was narrower than standard, and to avoid the hassle of having to cut insulation lengthwise, I just used the old insulation I originally pulled out -- precut, and going behind a built-in cabinet anyway.

Finally, I cut a single piece of drywall, which fit perfectly on the first shot! I still got it. :thumbsup: Nailed it up, and ready to move on.

However........


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## cocobolo

Itsdanf said:


> Another distraction project thrown into the mix (which is fine; any excuse to put off drywall worrk).
> 
> Our main living room originally had exposed rough-sawn cedar beams on the cathedral ceiling, with a very dark stain finish. The prior owner was paint-crazy, painting almost everything in off-white -- including the exposed cedar beams!
> 
> Ever since we moved in, we've been trying to solve this aesthetic problem. Obviously we had to paint. My original thought was to use a paint-and-glaze approach, to try to keep the beams looking like stained wood. Of course, alas, they would always look painted if examined closely.
> 
> However, we had a hard time finding paint the color of wood. After all, nobody wants to paint interior walls brown! To help us describe to the paint store guy the shades of brown we were looking for, we used the color samples they had for stain products.
> 
> Stain?  Hmmm.......
> 
> Yup, decided to take a small can of Minwax stain (8 fl oz/1/2 pint) home, and see if we could _stain the paint_. Tested an isolated spot, and...it worked great! The crap paint they had used took the stain quite readily -- and the result looked like stained wood, not painted wood! :thumbup:
> 
> The attached photos show 1) first try, with only one beam stained; 2) the finished job with all beams stained; and 3) & 4) close-ups. Although I would have selected a darker stain in hindsight (the white paint caused the final shade to be a bit lighter than expected), my wife is VERY pleased (and therefore, of course, so am I).
> 
> Oh, and the best part: That one dinky can of stain did the whole 26.5'x24.5' room!!! Apparently the thin layer of paint didn't soak up too much stain. Just over $4 to accomplish. Sweet.


Four bucks...I dunno...that's pretty extravagant don't you think?


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## Itsdanf

...in the last pic of the prior post, you can see a lack of nails along the bottom of the new board. This is because the wiring going through the studs were all blocked off with metal barriers, so there was no place to secure the drywall. Because the insulation was so packed, the board was bowing out along the bottom (see photo below). This would be a bear to handle through mudding, and likely to lead to cracking later (first time someone bumped hard against the wall).

Sadly, decided to rip out the drywall and start again. I lifted out the bottom of the insulation, nailed in a wood block, and thinned the insulation by removing some of the batting. 

To save another trip to the big box for more drywall (I was also going to need some for addressing the old panel location), I decided to use the old drywall section I'd originally cut out. Actually it worked very nicely!

So I then addressed the old panel wall. I first ripped a length of 2x4 in half, and nailed each piece on the inside of the studs (I wasn't going to skip a good nailing surface this time). Then I insulated (batting only; no way to slip in rigid boards), cut a piece of drywall to fit (again, using a part of the old drywall from the new panel location -- just fit too nicely to bother with a new piece), and nailed it up. 

Done for now. Mudding is next.

Oh, it's easy to attach nailing strips into studs using a framing nailer. Nice to have the right tools lying around from projects gone by... :yes:


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## cocobolo

Something else that sometimes works is to put a piece of 1 x 4 between the studs on the flat against the drywall and screw the 1 x 4 directly to both edges of the offending drywall. You do need 3/4" of room of course, but you can usually force a 1 x 4 in against insulation.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Something else that sometimes works is to put a piece of 1 x 4 between the studs on the flat against the drywall and screw the 1 x 4 directly to both edges of the offending drywall. You do need 3/4" of room of course, but you can usually force a 1 x 4 in against insulation.


Great point. Even the way I re-did it, it still left too long a stretch of joint unsupported. Using a 1x4 strip secured on both edges would have worked better.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Four bucks...I dunno...that's pretty extravagant don't you think?


Yup, I like living large! Drinks on the house (as long as you're taking tap water)! :laughing:


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## Itsdanf

So, yesterday the guest bedroom toilet decided not to shut off. Innerds appear to be original to the house (circa late 70's). Of course, the shutoff wouldn't budge, so I had to shut off the whole house water to fix it. Pretty straight-forward repair.

However, while the water was off, decided it was high time to DO SOMETHING IN THE KITCHEN! I unconnected the shutoff for the ice maker water supply. After 1/2 hour, the darn thing was still dripping. I stuffed some bread in it to stop it (if it works for soldering, it would work for this), and cut up a sheet of drywall to go on the wall. Managed to get holes/cuts in the right place for the water supply, two outlets and one corner wrap around the window.

That's all I had time to work on house projects yesterday. But at least I finally did something in the kitchen again. :thumbsup:

(There's an extra 3' of wall to the left that's still missing drywall. This is where the kitchen sink was. I'm waiting to drywall it until I have the new sink cabinet built and ready to install, since I'll have to disconnect water and drainage lines which are still hooked up to the dishwasher. It would be a pain to disconnect and then re-connect everything again, and I can't face having to hand-wash all the dishes again! Anyway, I ran out of drywall nails, so there.)

Today I was dreading having to start mudding. My wife saved me by enlisting me to help paint the living room. Then she insisted on playing golf this afternoon. What a gal! :yes:


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## cocobolo

Some guys have all the luck!!!:laughing:


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## Itsdanf

Well, the lucky streak ended: I did mudding and taping today. Funny, seems that now that I've started, it's not so bad. Don't know why I had such a mental block about getting this part started.

I only ran into one problem. The first mud batch (I mix my own from powder form) was only enough to do the kitchen wall. I mixed another batch to do the old and new panel areas. However, for some reason the mud set up quickly, and I couldn't finish one of the walls before the mud was unusable. :furious: I don't know what happened. Got discouraged, and just cleaned up the tools, instead of finishing. :whistling2:

Most of what I mudded today will be behind cabinets, so I'm not going to do much finishing in those areas. The exposed walls around the old and new panels will be a bit more of a challenge, since they're textured walls, and I've always dealt with flat walls in the past. Hopefully not any real problems there.

Meanwhile, I bought a 4x8 sheet of plywood (sanded on both surfaces) and a 1x8x8 strip of poplar. I'll do a bit of designing tonight, and use these to build a replacement sink cabinet. Nothing fancy, just trying to match the existing cabinets (alas).


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## Itsdanf

Made a deail with the wife: If you sand the drywall, I'll work on the cabinet. What a gal! :thumbup:

So I only started designing the cabinet this morning, and it took a little while. First I had to put the residual piece of cabinet back in its place, so I could figure out dimensions for the new cabinet. Turns out the right side of the old sink's face frame is still attached to the residual piece. To remove/replace that, I'd have to basically remove the whole face frame from that cabinet and replace it with a rebuilt one. Way too much work, particularly since I'd also have to remove and reinstall all the existing drawer hardware currently attached (six sets) -- no time, no energy, no thanks!

So the plan is to build a face frame section that can be attached to the existing face frame. I'm anticipating this might be tricky, but it's the best of a number of bad options. Anyway, they'll be painted white, so caulk will (hopefully) solve all ills.

Once I had all my calcs, I realized I could barely read my handwriting. So I spent a little time on the computer, using PowerPoint to sketch out plans, including cutting guides for both the plywood and the poplar board. Helps to plan ahead to avoid waste.:thumbsup:


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## Itsdanf

Next step was to cut some wood! Finally my chance to use the new Ridgid R4511 table saw.

So, the first problem is that the largest fence-supported cut this saw can make is 31.5". I needed a minimum 33-3/8" cut to get started on the plywood. :furious:

Oh well, back to basics. I set up the sheet outside, with a 2x4 support below, a straight piece of 1x4 clamped as a cutting guide, and my trusty circular saw.

Okay, I wish I'd been smart enough to simply cut to the exact width I needed. However, not thinking, I decided to cut it a little wider, and trim it up on the saw, so I could have a cleaner final cut. However, not wanting to risk cutting too wide (and risk losing sheet space for the remaining pieces), I only cut it about 1/2" wider than needed. With the blade width added in, I had LESS than 1/2" I needed to trim off. 

Have you ever tried to cut a large piece of plywood on a table saw with less than 1/2" between the blade and fence? Without a sacrificial fence added? Not a comfortable cut, that one. The piece was still too wide to put the fence on the other side of the piece. It was a bit iffy toward the end of the cut, but I think it turned out okay. :whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

Okay, with that done, I could cut up the remaining pieces. Cut the plywood and poplar board to the final sizes needed (used the miter saw for cross-cuts on the board).

Next step was to load up the stacked dado blades in the table saw to cut some dados and rabbets. Experimented with scraps to get the right width (I wanted them snug) and height of the dado cut, then ran the actual pieces through.

I haven't got a throat plate for the dado blades, and didn't want to take time to try to make one today. With the larger pieces I was working with, I didn't think operating with no throat plate would be an issue.

For the rabbets, I definitely needed a sacrificial fence. Putting the metal fence right up to the dado blades is an invitation to destroy your fence, your blades, and possibly some body parts when the metal goes flying. I simply clamped some scrap plywood to both sides of the fence, then gently slid the fence over the running dado blades about a centimeter. Then I aligned the fence back into proper position, tested with a scrap, and ran the work pieces.

That should do it for the saws today.


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## Itsdanf

Now for some assembly. 

I plan to use glue for the carcass assembly, supported with screws for the bottom of the cabinet that fits into the dados, and nails for the back that goes into the rabbets.

First thing to do was to drill holes for the screws. It's easiest to drill holes from the inside of the dado, then flip the piece to drill using a counter-sink bit (to allow the screws to go in flush). This takes the guess work out of locating the proper screw locations from the outside.

Next step was to glue up the rabbets on the side pieces to accept the back. Because there's no guesswork for locating the rabbets, I simply used a nail gun to secure them. No clamps needed.

Now here's where I must confess that I'm an idiot. :furious::furious::furious::furious: I was trying to be so careful about my cuts, but I got on a roll and lost focus when making my dado cuts. Instead of cutting a dado into the piece destined to be the back, I cut it into the piece destined to be the bottom!  

Innocent mistake, no? Maybe. However, my idiocy is demonstrated by the fact that I didn't notice the error until AFTER I glued and nailed the "bottom" to the back. After all, there was a foot difference in length between the pieces. But NO, I didn't notice until it was glued and nailed up. [Sigh...]

Okay, not a complete disaster. I'll trim a foot off the remaining piece to convert it to a new bottom, and take the trimmed-off piece and attach it above the shorted back. Nobody (outside of me, my wife and anybody reading this) will ever know the difference. But I'm still bummed....

LESSON LEARNED: ALWAYS DRY-FIT BEFORE FINAL ASSEMBLY.

I was planning on finishing the carcass assembly tonight, but I got pulled into a late dinner, then had to watch the DWTS finale. Tomorrow is another day.


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## Itsdanf

Well, ran into a couple more issues with the carcass. First, I also forgot yesterday to cut the toe kicks out of the side sheets. Quickly solved with a jigsaw. Second, my dados were too snug for the bottom to slide into the sides. I put dados and a sacrificial fence back on the saw, and trimmed _just a hair_ off the sides and back of the new bottom, where it fits into the dados. That worked fine. (Good to have a saw that can handle such fine adjustments). Glued and screwed the bottom into the carcass (using 2" deck screws).

Finally, I took the piece I cut off the new bottom, and glued/nailed it above the back, to give the back more height. Looks good, and should work fine.

I sanded the top of the bottom a bit, and my wife polyurethaned the inside of the carcass -- her choice (I would have simply painted it). 

Meanwhile, I worked on the face frame. I went back to my original cabinet leftovers, and tweaked some measurements. Then I cut slots in the key joints with a biscuit jointer. I glued and clamped some of the joints, but didn't have enough long clamps, so I'll finish the glue-up later-- probably tomorrow; I'm feeling lazy again..... :whistling2:.

...oh heck, there's only two more joints to glue. I'll do it now, so I can start anew tomorrow.


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## cocobolo

Hi Dan...couple of things.

What kind of drill bit is that which kind of messed up your plywood?

Looks like you and I have the same biscuit joiner. One of the very best.

And you think nobody else is going to find out about your little mistake? Noooooo...I'm going to email everyone I know on the planet and tell them, then I'm going to get them to email everyone they know...and ...


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Hi Dan...couple of things.
> 
> What kind of drill bit is that which kind of messed up your plywood?


Sears Craftsman. Finest quality woodworking tools known to man (at least, the man across the counter about 20 years ago... :no. The plywood won't be exposed, so I'm not concerned about it. The bits do work better on solid wood, for what it's worth... (not much).



cocobolo said:


> Hi Dan...couple of things.
> 
> Looks like you and I have the same biscuit joiner. One of the very best.


I've been pretty pleased with it, thanks. All problems I've had with it have been caused by the clumsy operator.



cocobolo said:


> Hi Dan...couple of things.
> 
> And you think nobody else is going to find out about your little mistake? Noooooo...I'm going to email everyone I know on the planet and tell them, then I'm going to get them to email everyone they know...and ...


...and I'll be an internet virual sensation?!?!? :laughing: If that's what it takes, I've got a lifetime of material to add to it. :yes: But I ain't gonna share. :no:

Meanwhile, I got the rest of the face frame glued up. Had an interesting challenge with the bottom part of the frame. To match the existing cabinets, it's only 1/2" high. Made it difficult to attach to the adjacent piece. I finally put a biscuit slot UP into the middle of the two pieces, and glued a biscuit into it, with 1/2 of it sticking out the bottom. When it's set up tomorrow, I'll saw off the exposed biscuit, and hopefully it will all hold.

Next challenge: How to connect the new face frame to the adjacent cabinet's face frame. I anticipate lots of fun and foul language....


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## tpolk

just some thoughts... label your pieces with pencil on back side, pencil allows change of mind. also make an insert for your table saw out of plywood then bring your dado blades up while saw is on ,that way your material has support all thru the cut. save insert for later use


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## Itsdanf

tpolk said:


> just some thoughts... label your pieces with pencil on back side, pencil allows change of mind. also make an insert for your table saw out of plywood then bring your dado blades up while saw is on ,that way your material has support all thru the cut. save insert for later use


Thanks Tpolk, good feedback.

I (almost) always use pencils to mark my pieces. Alas, this quick project seemed so simple, I didn't this time -- with the results you'd expect. :yes: :wallbash:Even my wife didn't argue when I said I'd been an idiot. (...not that she ever argues when I say that).

And pencils are preferable over pens, markers, etc., since they won't bleed through finish later.

When I first got the saw earlier this year, I fully intended to make my own hardwood dado throat plates/inserts, as well as a permanent fence face, a slip-over sacrificial fence, feather boards, etc. Two things stopped me: 1) I was missing a LOT of saw parts at time of purchase, which took months to rectify with Ridgid and THD; this took a toll on my "momentum" with the new toy.  2) as mentioned in a previous post, I'm going to be leaving retirement soon, so I have to hurry to finish projects in the house before I'm off for the new job/career. I expect to be putting the saw in mothballs or sell it soon, so I've put off any more of the fun stuff. In this case, even a jury-rigged throat plate (not focused too much on depth, rounded-corner fit, etc.) didn't seem worth the effort.

Being in a hurry sucks. I miss retirement already! :wink:


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## Itsdanf

Yesterday I finished up the face frame, cutting off the exposed biscuit (that joint will hold just fine) and sanding everything down. 

My wife primed it, so it's ready for painting.


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## Itsdanf

Also yesterday, I finally tried my hand at wall texturing. Not my favorite thing, particularly since I was trying to match the texture of the original wall. I don't think I had the right kind of texturing brush. The wife wasn't pleased.  Neither was I. However, I think it will be unnoticable to casual observation when primed/painted.


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## Itsdanf

Today I ripped off the old backsplash and countertop from the cabinet to the left of the sink area, so I could access the wall for the rest of the drywall work. 

I first replaced some of the old insulation (not all, since I ran out of the new stuff). 

Then I managed to install a tricky piece of drywall with a number of cutouts, which I slipped in from underneath the plumbing. I then added a 2nd piece above, to close out the wall. 

I'm quite pleased: Now I don't have to remove the shutoff valves and drain pipe to install a single sheet. SWEET! :thumbup:

No more time today (socializing calls), but tomorrow I hope to do some quick mudding, then install the sink cabinet.


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## downrightart

downrightart said:


> Man, this thread was worth the read and time! I mean, it has everything! Drama, blood, humor, and patience! Was there any domestic violence? :laughing:
> 
> What a great job Dan! I'm impressed! :thumbup:





Itsdanf said:


> Thanks! No domestic violence... - yet. :laughing:
> 
> (There might be, if I don't eventually get back to working on the kitchen. My wife can swing a mean golf club.  )


HA! At least I've been here! :laughing: I remember because Dan had all the problems to FIX!

You are doing great. Out of retirement, back in, and still working on problems! 

Just one question. Are you still married Dan???? Or do you have a place in your head the size 3 or a 9?


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## Itsdanf

downrightart said:


> HA! At least I've been here! :laughing: I remember because Dan had all the problems to FIX!
> 
> You are doing great. Out of retirement, back in, and still working on problems!
> 
> Just one question. Are you still married Dan???? Or do you have a place in your head the size 3 or a 9?


:laughing: My head's okay. Fortunately she yelled "FORE!" before she swung.

Thanks for the kind comments. There's a lot to do still, and only a few weeks left before I'm outta here and she's on her own. In addition to the kitchen-related activities, we've been painting, fixing various electrical problems around (yup, still a few of those), setting up the surround-sound system (finally, after almost 2 years), etc. A major effort coming up is some duct re-work and ceiling fan relocation for the upstairs master bedroom. Mostly involves attic work, which is challenging these days with these hot, sunny Texas days we've been having. Can you say Gatorade? (...followed soon thereafter by more potent beverages! :drink.


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## cocobolo

Where do you find the time to post given everything that you have to get done!

That's a pretty big list for such a short time. And we all know how something that is going to take just a few minutes ends up taking a week and a half!:yes:


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Where do you find the time to post given everything that you have to get done!
> 
> That's a pretty big list for such a short time. And we all know how something that is going to take just a few minutes ends up taking a week and a half!:yes:


Thanks, Keith, you're very kind. However, YOUR thread constantly demonstrates that my level of efficiency and skill is like a snail to your cheetah! Everyone knows YOU da man!!

Regarding posting of my humble efforts: I find that thinking about having to post my activities helps me focus on doing a better job. Alas, I'm too honest to skip talking about screw-ups, so I try hard to avoid them. Helps me ultimately do a better job. 

Also, it's embarrassing if I don't show something accomplished, since I've whined about my lack of time left. Again, motivation. 

When do I find time to post? The more time I spend on the computer, the less sleep I get. 8| I notice that I tend to be on when you're on in the evening -- your evening, even though I'm in Texas (Central time). My wife doesn't let me sleep too late in the morning, so.....

This pattern won't work when I start working in DC in a few weeks...:no:


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## cocobolo

Well, I certainly wish you all the best in your new job.

Not to mention that I hope you manage to get all your most important projects finished before you head outta town.:thumbsup:


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## Itsdanf

Not much to report today, wasn't feeling great. Taped and mudded the remaining drywall behind the sink area. Pretty rough, but all will be behind a cabinet or back splash. I'll smooth out the back splash area a bit tomorrow.

Meanwhile, still debating about my mediocre texturing job on the walls. Hard to capture the difference on photos, but the worst section is in the half bath, which is used by guests. The yellowish photo (not the real color, just bad photography) is original, the white one my crappy texturing. Between mixing the mud too thick and it setting up too quickly, my texturing looked more like brushed clay. My wife wants me to grind it down flat, and give her a go at it. Don't have a grinder, might be an opportunity to buy another tool! ...er, which I won't get an opportunity to use again, given I'm heading out for the next decade or so. Still pondering this one.

Also, got the built-in cabinet back in its place today by the new panel.


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## Itsdanf

Oh, in the kitchen photo in the last post, you can see a small wet stain below the shutoff valve. :furious: The copper tubing from the dish washer started a small leak where it seats into the shutoff valve. I never trusted that connection; looked like the former owner had done a repair there before -- and anything he repaired, I'm finding I have to re-repair..... Perfect timing, as I'll have to take everything apart anyway, before I can install the new sink cabinet.


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## cocobolo

You're not for one second suggesting that the former owner was a lousy, no-good, cheapskate, crummy DIY'er who couldn't get _anything right_, are you?:cursing::bangin::lol:


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> You're not for one second suggesting that the former owner was a lousy, no-good, cheapskate, crummy DIY'er who couldn't get _anything right_, are you?:cursing::bangin::lol:


Not in so many words, but you paint an accurate picture!


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## cocobolo

:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## Itsdanf

Worked on three things today. One was the plumbing problem. The water feed line to the dishwasher started leaking where a "patch job" had been previously installed into the shutoff valve. The leak was occuring at the compression joint where the extension copper tube entered the valve.

I decided to replace the whole copper tubing with a steel-jacketed flex tube. However, this evening when I tried to work on it, I couldn't get the copper tube disconnected at the dishwasher. :furious: Seems to be either frozen in with calcium deposits, or gooped up with some kind of sealer. In the photo, you can see that the copper tube has greened up a bit, probably indicating a leak in an earlier time (no evidence of leaks in the past two years I've been here).

I'm now thinking I'll cut the tube about 5 inches from the dishwater coupling, and connect the flex tubing there. I'll need another trip to the store tomorrow for the coupling part...


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## Itsdanf

2nd issue was the kitchen floor. We knew that removing the Pergo laminate flooring would be easier to do before putting in the cabinets. Also, we needed to determine whether the tile below was in decent shape. We'd removed the laminate from the adjacent utility room, and the tile was only cracked in one spot along a wall. If in good shape, the kitchen tile below would become the new floor, and we'd need to consider its color for deciding counter top options -- something that's coming up soon.

Result: The laminate came up very easily (it was snap-together; much easier to remove than glued laminate, which I've dealt with in a previous home). And the great news is that ALL the tiles are in great shape! :thumbup:

Not the color I'd select if starting from scratch, but it will do. Taking out the old tile and putting in a new floor was NOT a project I wanted to tackle right now. :no:


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## Itsdanf

The 3rd issue is..., well, embarrassing.

I fitted the new cabinet to the old cabinet that it will connect to on the right. I then checked to see that the face frame would fit properly.

8| :furious:  :cursing: :icon_cry: :wacko: :icon_redface:  ........ :surrender:

Icons cannot express the pissed-off and frustrated feelings I had when I discovered the horizontal pieces of the face frame were... 1.5" _too short_.

Long (sad) story short, I fixed the problem. I took a remaining scrap that was 1.5" wide (ironically fortunate), and glued it to the right vertical piece using biscuits. After a good sanding, this "patch" effort will 1) work fine; and 2) be virtually unnoticeable.

Okay, okay, so it will work out. I'm STILL an idiot for having gotten into this mess in the first place. I must have been on drugs when I did my initial measurements (and I don't even use drugs.....).


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## cocobolo

Mornin' Dan...you know, it's only a mistake if you _can't_ fix it.


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## gmhammes

cocobolo said:


> Mornin' Dan...you know, it's only a mistake if you _can't_ fix it.


 
^^ so true...


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Mornin' Dan...you know, it's only a mistake if you _can't_ fix it.


My thought: It's only a disaster if you can't fix it, but a mistake is a mistake. :yes: :laughing:

Okay, maybe I was being a bit hard on myself yesterday (and a bit today :whistling2. I figured out what caused the measurement error (used the wrong reference point on the old cabinet). I'm really wishing I could have tossed the old cabinets and built totally new ones -- would have been much easier! But (alas), also would have taken too much time.

No renovation work done today, due to other priorities. Tomorrow's another day (but not many left...).


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## Itsdanf

Since I got no DIY work done today, thought I'd follow Cocobolo's lead and throw in some flower photos.

Don't ask me what they are (that's my wife's department). Of course, being a Texan, I do know that the last ones are Texas Bluebonnets!


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## cocobolo

The first three are irises.:yes:


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> The first three are irises.:yes:


Thanks! Don't tell my wife I didn't know that -- she'd slap me.

When it comes to flowers, what I lack in knowledge, I make up for with ignorance.


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## cocobolo

...nobody can accuse you of not having a sense of humor!:thumbup:


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> ...nobody can accuse you of not having a sense of humor!:thumbup:


Ya gotta have a sense of humor to be me! :laughing:


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## Itsdanf

Made some good progress today! 

Firstly, tackled the plumbing problem with the dish washer. Went shopping and got a coupling, then cut the copper tubing a few inches from the dishwasher connection, and coupled the copper to the new flex tubing. 

So far, so good. Had to wait until pressure was restored to test, but that would be later in the day.


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## Itsdanf

Next step was to prepare the new sink cabinet for installation. I took careful measurements, and marked the back of the cabinet for the numerous holes I had to make for plumbing and electrical. 

I used various sized hole saws, as needed. First, I drilled pilot holes from the back of the cabinet for all holes to be drilled. I then started the hole from the back for a little bit, then started from the inside to complete the hole. This allowed me to minimize any plywood rip-out when the hole saw exited.

(If you look closely, you can see that I didn't completely follow this technique for the first hole; I didn't use the hole saw some on the back first, and I had a LONG strip of rip-out as a result. Fortunately it was the back of the cabinet, so only you and I will ever know. :whistling2

After all the holes were prepared, I shut off the house water so that I could remove the shutoff valves before installing the cabinets. It was at that point that I realized that the holes I'd cut for the water supply lines would fit around the pipes, but NOT around the nut for the shutoff valves -- which are compression fittings, where the nut cannot be removed.

So, I had to drill bigger holes. Fortunately, Cocobolo's thread recently covered how to handle this. I cut a larger hole in a scrap of wood, then placed this over the smaller hole that needed enlarging. This allowed me to cut the bigger hole without the hole saw jumping all over the place. Thanks, Keith, for yet another timely piece of advice!


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## Itsdanf

Although I'd opened all plumbing fixtures upstairs and down, to relieve pressure and empty the pipes, I still had water trickling out of the cold water supply line after two hours! I had to use the faithful old standby: A wadded-up-bread plug. Works every time. :thumbsup:

I also had to cut off the drain pipe. Hack saw -- no problemo.

Now I was ready to finally put the new cabinet in place. After inserting all the flexible parts (electric cables, dishwasher supply and drain lines), I carefully moved the cabinet into place and attempted to slip the holes over the plumbing stubs, and........ -- it fit like a glove! Amazing, my "careful measurements" finally worked as planned. :thumbup: No "I'm an idiot" comments today. :no:

With minimal shimming, I was able to screw the cabinet into the wall.

There was a bit of a gap between the upper-left-forward corner of the cabinet and the support board going over the front of the dish washer. I bridged the gap with a small scrap of plywood, using glue and a couple 1.5" brads.


----------



## Itsdanf

I next re-installed the old cabinet section to the right of the new sink cabinet -- very straight forward, particularly since it needed no shimming.

However, the face frame from the old cabinet overlaps over the new cabinet, and there was a bit of a gap there. To resolve it, I drilled and counter-sunk some holes to screw the old face frame to the new cabinet. (Keith, as you can see, the crappy Craftsman counter-sink bits worked okay here). Two screws, and the face frame and cabinet were flush. 

Now for the new face frame. As you can see more clearly in the photos, the overlapping old face frame makes up the right side of the new face frame. To attach, I used biscuits where the upper-two horizontal pieces attached to the old frame. For the lowest piece, it was too small for biscuits, so I simply secured it to the new cabinet using a couple spaced-out biscuits. Before final assembly, I glued all contact points (frame-to-frame, frame-to-cabinet). Once glued and assembled, I used some small brads to hold it all together while the glue set.

Now, when I originally removed the old cabinet, I had to cut the face frame where it connected to the original sink cabinet. Since I wasn't planning to save anything, I wasn't careful with the cut. As a result, I took out too much material, leaving a bit of a gap where the two upper frame members now attach. I'll fill this with some kind of filler (wood filler or caulk, haven't decided). 

(Sorry if too wordy; at least there're plenty of photos........)


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## Itsdanf

Finally, just some touch-up issues. Installed the outlet in the cabinet for the insta-hot-water dispenser. Got all the plumbing fixtures re-attached (except for the drain, which I'll do tomorrow), and turned the water back on.

...and ran into the only bad situation of the day. The new supply line for the dishwasher works fine, but there's now a leak where the old copper tube attaches to the dishwasher! :furious: 

However, the flex line I bought was actually part of a "kit," and the bag of couplings included a 90 degree brass fitting that looks exactly like the one on the dishwasher that the copper tube's attached to. If I can remove the old fitting from the dishwasher, I should be able to replace it, and attach the flex tube directly to it.

That, also, I'm leaving for tomorrow.

Overall, I'm quite pleased with today's progress. We also had time to do some shopping today at the orange and blue big box stores, and we bought a new sink, disposal and some odds n ends. Tomorrow I'm driving into the city (Ft. Worth) to pick up a 12' stretch of laminate countertop (from a distressed inventory outlet), which should fit perfectly over this stretch of cabinets. It won't match the rest of the kitchen, but there's no time left to worry about it. At some point we'll replace all the countertops with something nice; for now, we need something to hold the kitchen sink and our "stuff," so this one's temporary.

Now, time to enjoy a cold one! :drink:


----------



## Itsdanf

Been so busy this weekend, haven't even had time to post anything. Alas, not all of it was related to the kitchen work. 

All day today, for example, was working on the duct work and ceiling fan re-wire/relocation for the master bedroom. Could've done a whole new thread on that work, but didn't take any photos. Just as well, probably would have ruined the camera due with heat and dust. Today's temps were over 100F outside, and the attic was worse! The good news was that we had plenty of water, and ultimately everything was accomplished satisfactorily!


----------



## Itsdanf

Meanwhile, I'm a bit disappointed in our kitchen progress. I did go to town for the 12' kitchen countertop, but there was no way to haul it back home in my 6' pickup bed. Could have made it a couple miles on slow roads, but not 50+ miles on fast-moving highways! :no: Plan now is to look for a more-local fabricator on Monday. (No time to do my own laminate work, alas).

I did get the dishwasher working, finally. Had to disconnect the water pump and take it out to the shop to get that 90 degree fitting off. Once I did, I put everything back together (including the new fitting), hooked the supply line, and everything was water-tight.

...then I had another IDIOT moment. Not trusting a static test, I decided to run a quick rinse cycle on the washer, to see if the pump would stay water-tight. Ran it for a minute, worked fine, and I decided to shut the washer off. 

Unfortunately...I have an old dial-operated machine, and when I tried to turn the dial to go to the off postion, I dialed through the drain cycle, and it started draining. Fine, except THE DRAIN WASN'T CONNECTED YET!! 

First clue? Water gushing on the floor from the right.  

My wife heard me yelling, and immediately came to the rescue with some towels, while I opened the door of the machine to shut it off (which I should've done to start with) and ran for a bucket to catch the rest coming out the hose.

Funny now, but somehow not at the time..........


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## cocobolo

I don't suppose it would have been a very good idea to cut the counter in half, would it?:whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

Also this weekend, I connected the dishwasher drain pipe (it's all about timing :laughing, and I used a hand plane to shave down the top of the face frame a bit. I also patched up the gap areas between old and new face frames with some wood filler -- old stuff that was barely still pliable, but still seemed to do the trick (threw the rest of the stuff away).

Since I still don't have a countertop, I wasn't able to spend time installing the new sink and stuff, as I'd planned. Instead, I started some of the trim work required from ripping out the old laminate flooring. I salvaged most of the quarter-round trim from the cabinets, but replaced all the baseboard trim in the kitchen. I also ripped out and replaced the door trim leading to the utility room, since it had been cut higher for the laminate (and, as usual, done poorly by the former "handy-man-not" owner). My wife caulked the pre-primed trim, and she will paint it later.

Slower overall progress in the kitchen than I expected, but that just allowed me to get more done on other critical projects. Overall, a busy, progressive weekend.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> I don't suppose it would have been a very good idea to cut the counter in half, would it?:whistling2:


Thought about it, but didn't want the seam -- particularly since I hadn't measured exactly where the kitchen sink would be (and I'd want the seam in the middle of the sink, if needed).

However, if I can't find a good (and quick) deal from a local company, I'll probably end up going to the local big-box for a couple 8' sections, and put the seam where I want it. At least I won't have to travel so far if I go that route...


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## cocobolo

Looks like an A-1 job on the door trim.

Question for you about your floor tiles. Do you have two different colours there - some look grey-greenish, and the others look brownish. Or is that just a trick of the light.

The grey-greenish ones look remarkably similar to those we put on out deck outside the master bedroom.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Looks like an A-1 job on the door trim.
> 
> Question for you about your floor tiles. Do you have two different colours there - some look grey-greenish, and the others look brownish. Or is that just a trick of the light.
> 
> The grey-greenish ones look remarkably similar to those we put on out deck outside the master bedroom.


Hard to get color right in the photos. Here's one from last year (same tile in the utility room, which we uncovered earlier). It's got blue-grey colors, with some green. The edges of the tile have a bit of green in them, and the (very wide) grout is a pale green.

Sounds gross, no? Surprisingly it's not that bad in person. Not the tile (and definitely not the grout) we would have chosen, but it's better than the laminate that was there before (which had dents and chips, plus some buckling from getting wet earlier in life). The tile doesn't come up easily (found that out when I re-tiled the half-bath at the end of the utility room), so we're in no hurry to tackle replacing this floor right now. :no:

My wife's thinking of painting the grout. I thought of staining (since that worked so well for the living room beams). In reality, I think they'll stay the way they are for a while. :whistling2:


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## Itsdanf

Good news: Found a great deal on a countertop. A local fabricator had this one in his "boneyard," and I got it for a very good price. Since it doesn't have a backsplash, I'm having him make a matching one that will sit on top (which matches how the rest of the kitchen's currently set up). 

Turns out the color is perfect for our cabinet and floor colors. It's labeled "sandstone." 

A little shimming and adhesive, wait a bit for it to set, then time to cut a hole for the sink. Progress!

(Did I mention the wife's happy? :thumbup: )


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## Itsdanf

DISTRACTIONS: 

I was starting my motorcycle to go get some construction adhesive from the big box. Noticed some loud thunder -- loud enough to hear over my bike (I have after-market pipes; nice loud rumble). 

Then I noticed the mushroom cloud. 

This is not a normal occurance for a Texas afternoon. Particularly freaky because there's a nuclear plant not too far away.:nuke:

Turns out some construction crew dug into a burried 36" natural gas pipeline. Three dead so far -- and MANY thousands freaked out!


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## cocobolo

Holy smoke as it were. I bet that got your attention in a big rush. That might make our local TV news tonight...


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## Itsdanf

Tried to install the sink today. Following the instructions, I placed the sink upside-down on the counter, and positioned it properly. I then traced the outline on the counter, removed the sink, and drew a cutting line 1/4" inside the outline.

Before I started cutting, I reviewed the whole outline to assure I had clear cutting underneath. 

Nope. :furious:

The inside width of my sink cabinet is 32-1/2". The sink was a 33" sink, so the width of the cut required was 32-1/2. Realistically, no room for the jig saw to cut the hole -- particularly since the sink really needed to be a bit more to the right to center with the cabinet front. So, decided to take back the sink to the big blue box, and get a slightly smaller size.

Did you know that 33" appears to be THE industry standard for two-basin kitchen sinks?????:wallbash: I gave up in frustration and returned home.


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## Itsdanf

Since then I've been thinking that I could have made the side cuts closer-in toward the center, as the sink has plenty of lip. I wouldn't be able to use the sink's clamping system on the sides, but I could either jury-rig an alternative, or just rely on the front and rear clamps and the perimeter sealant.

So, tomorrow I think I'll go buy back that  sink and try again.

(Yes, it's been one of those days.....)


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## cocobolo

Dan...just because the guy at the store says that is the industry standard, doesn't mean they aren't other sizes. Just means that's all he's got. Might be worth it to make a few phone calls to see if you can't find one an inch or two smaller. It'll save you more frustration.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Dan...just because the guy at the store says...


What, you think I actually talked to them? Nobody was around. I just looked at all the ones they had on display (plenty), from cheapies to heck-no-I-won't-pay-that-much. Every two-basin model and brand was 33" wide.

But thanks, you raise a good point (as always). I'll make a few calls around to see if I can get something that might fit better. But it will only work if I can get something quickly. The clock is ticking!...


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## cocobolo

Morning Dan...don't know if I'm in time to help or not, but when we were looking for our sink, we needed one which was not too wide due to the rather severe curve in the kitchen counter.

The one we bought is 31 1/8" wide by 20 3/8" deep. That includes the lip.

It is model FHP200/3 and the name on the label says Kindred Industries Limited, Midland, ON, Canada L4R 4K9.

Here's the kicker...it says made in USA!

So you might try www.kindred-sinkware.com to see if they have something that might help you. I'm thinking Fedex or UPS overnight from the factory maybe....


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## Itsdanf

Around posts 48-57, I discussed the Ridgid table saw I purchased to make the kitchen cabinets. I also discussed the fact that all the parts needed to operate the saw didn't get delivered. I had a LONG saga of back-and-forth with THD and Ridgid on the situation, and didn't get enough parts to actually operate the saw until May! Still I've had issues: Missing the proper screws to mount the fence storage brackets, and problems with the two-part fence guide causing the fence to be out of parallel with the blade at certain distances. (Re the final issue, you can see evidence in some of the cabinet photos, where you see burn marks on the edges of some of the cut plywood).

Bottom line: The significant delay caused me to miss my opportunity to build the full kitchen cabinets, and the current product still isn't right.

Resolution? Long story short, THD yesterday agreed to take back the saw and return my money. 

The downside? This HD store is 27 miles away (not my closest one), and they refused to pick up the unit. This saw weighs over 400 lbs! I ended up stripping the unit apart as much as possible, but it was still a struggle to get the main part in the back of my pickup. I had the HD guys unload it at the store. 

The upside? I'm soon to leave retirement and embark on a new career -- one where I'll be living around the world for the next 10 years or so. Not a situation where I'll need a table saw anytime soon! I've done all I can with the saw, and while I'll miss it, it's great timing to return it for a full refund! (Not that I didn't earn that right, with almost 6 months of ongoing frustration trying to resolve a bad situation).

Anyway, thought I'd share that situation. The saw is gone. 

May it end in happier hands.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Morning Dan...don't know if I'm in time to help or not, but when we were looking for our sink, we needed one which was not too wide due to the rather severe curve in the kitchen counter.
> 
> The one we bought is 31 1/8" wide by 20 3/8" deep. That includes the lip.
> 
> It is model FHP200/3 and the name on the label says Kindred Industries Limited, Midland, ON, Canada L4R 4K9.
> 
> Here's the kicker...it says made in USA!
> 
> So you might try www.kindred-sinkware.com to see if they have something that might help you. I'm thinking Fedex or UPS overnight from the factory maybe....


Keith, thanks for the lead! I checked out their web site, and all their two-basin sinks appeared to be 33". I did a search on the FHP200/3 model, but it wasn't there. I even called them, but apparently too late for their business hours (my assumption, after 25 minutes awaiting "the next available operator"). A Google search showed a number of units for sale in Canada in March, but no leads on anything here -- or recent.

I finally broke down and re-purchased the sink. Talked to a (seemingly competent) plumber guy at the blue box, and he thought that anchoring the front and back, combined with sealant, should be plenty to adequately secure the sink.

We'll see tomorrow. Didn't have time to start install tonight. Closer I get to departure time, less time I seem to have for working on DIY projects!....


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## cocobolo

Hi Dan...sorry to hear about the troubles with both the table saw and the sink.

I wonder if the number on our package was for Canadian consumption? The label is printed in both French and English, a concession to our French pals in Quebec.

I would be inclined to think that front and back bolts will do an adequate job for you. What I would do would be to put a really healthy bead of sealant around the sink - two actually. One bead right on the upside down sink, and the other on the counter top.

Put one on about 10 minutes before the other. Set the sink in place but don't tighten up the bolts yet. Give it about an hour to settle itself...by this time the sealant will be partially cured (see what it says on the label for cure time) then snug the bolts up.

If any sealant chooses to sneak outside the sink, now would be the time to clean it up.

Any more news on your nuclear explosion?


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## Sheila4467

During one of our renovations years ago, we used sealant alone on a temporary instillation of our sink, which turned out to last 7 months, and it NEVER leaked, or gave us any problems at all. If you get the right sealant, you just can't go wrong. 

When we finally got our new countertop, a huge 12' L shaped one, we used the same sealer (and bolts) and never looked back, or worried again.

I was feeding at least 8 people 3 times a day at that time, so you can just imagine how much our sink was used. 

I sure hope you find the sink you need, or that you can get that countertop cut out. Let us know what happens. There are always pickles to deal with, but I have to say, your work still looks great. 

You shold be proud of it, that's for sure. !!!!:thumbup::thumbsup:


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Hi Dan...sorry to hear about the troubles with both the table saw and the sink.
> 
> I wonder if the number on our package was for Canadian consumption? The label is printed in both French and English, a concession to our French pals in Quebec.
> 
> I would be inclined to think that front and back bolts will do an adequate job for you. What I would do would be to put a really healthy bead of sealant around the sink - two actually. One bead right on the upside down sink, and the other on the counter top.
> 
> Put one on about 10 minutes before the other. Set the sink in place but don't tighten up the bolts yet. Give it about an hour to settle itself...by this time the sealant will be partially cured (see what it says on the label for cure time) then snug the bolts up.
> 
> If any sealant chooses to sneak outside the sink, now would be the time to clean it up.
> 
> Any more news on your nuclear explosion?


I'll follow your recommendations on the sealant. Thanks for the guidance!

I got conflicting news on the gas pipeline explosion. Early reports were that 3 were killed and 10 missing. Next morning, only one killed, and one missing -- much better! Apparently a utility crew were drilling holes for new power line poles, and somehow screwed up by drilling in the wrong place. The company apparently did the appropriate checks ahead of time, but the crew may have been sub-contractors who didn't follow proper procedures. The drilling truck was blow into two pieces, the closest of which ended up only 200 feet away...

Just glad the incident wasn't at Comanche Peak Nuclear Plant, which was only about 10 miles away. That would have been a more dicey situation, for sure.


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## Itsdanf

Shiela, thanks for the kind comments. I'm glad your sink worked out so well, and hope mine ultimately does too!

This morning I started out early (rare for me) and motivated. I got the hole cut out for the sink, using a downward-toothed jigsaw blade. The tooth direction avoids ripping the laminate off the board, and makes for a very clean cut.

Sink fits in the hole well, but no lip available for clamps on the sides, as expected. However, the sink lip itself is a little bowed up on the sides (tried to capture in the photo).


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## Itsdanf

So I figured I needed side clamps, anyway. Evaluating the situation, I figured I could simply make some notches for the clamps. I drilled and chiseled out a small hole where the side cabinet wall meets the cut-out countertop, and viola: A place for the clamp to fit! One notch in the middle of each side ought to do it. :thumbsup:

Next step was to install the faucets (main kitchen faucet, plus insta-hot faucet) and drain basket into the sink (much easier before installing the sink itself). I'm using the same faucet that was on the old sink, since it had only been in place less than a year.

...However, I forgot that, when I un-installed the faucet back in December, one of the plastic threaded nuts that held the faucet in place had cracked when removing, and I'd never replaced it. :furious:

So, the morning's momentum and energy came to a screeching halt. Now I had to go out shopping before I could continue. However, other priorities came up (lots going on in prep for return to working life), and I ended up being diverted for the rest of the day.

Of course, the night is somewhat young (only 9pm as I write). I might get some done before crashing tonight -- we'll see...... :whistling2:


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## cocobolo

Well...good news - sort of - about that explosion. Still and all one person being killed is one too many.

Good job on the extra side clamps...nothing to worry about there any more.:thumbsup:

Let's hope you managed to get the replacement nut before the store closed!:yes:

How many more days is it now before you return to the working world?


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## Itsdanf

Itsdanf said:


> Of course, the night is somewhat young (only 9pm as I write). I might get some done before crashing tonight -- we'll see...... :whistling2:


Nope. Gathered a few parts and supplies together, but never got started -- too many distractions, and too tired. Tomorrow is another day (but not many left).

Keith, in answer to your question: I begin work on the 21st, but have to hit the road earlier. I have less than a week left as a DIYer.


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## cocobolo

Itsdanf said:


> Nope. Gathered a few parts and supplies together, but never got started -- too many distractions, and too tired. Tomorrow is another day (but not many left).
> 
> Keith, in answer to your question: I begin work on the 21st, but have to hit the road earlier. I have less than a week left as a DIYer.


Well, then, just to make sure I don't forget to wish you all the best before you go "ALL THE BEST!!" 

Do your best to enjoy the last few days having fun!:jester:


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## Sheila4467

Sounds like it's almost time to stop, and spend some time with your wife.

Your sink is looking great, and I love your DIY fix for the clamps.

Now go spend time with the family and enjoy yourself for a few days.

You won't regret it.


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## Itsdanf

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
:furious::furious::furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:

Got the faucets attached, clamps attached (and screws trimmed down, so the ratchet wrench will reach the nuts), counter laid down with sealant, and finally ready to clamp it down.

But..... the side rims won't bend down flush! Even with my wife almost sitting on the thing, the clamp bent and was ready to break. Still a huge gap!!

Very frustrating. Disassmebled everything, scraped off plumbers putty and sealant, and took the sink back to Lowes. Looked at the other two they had, and bought the one with the least amount of arch on the sides.

Took it home, put it in the hole.........AND SAW THE DENT IN THE LEFT BASIN!!!  Looks like this sink had been purchased and returned previously. GADS!!!!

Some days, you wonder why you even get out of bed...........

I'm off to Lowes, again. Bringing the wife to help me look over the last sink, to determine if it's worth trying. If not, we'll need to pick another one, and hope it fits the hole in the countertop.


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## cocobolo

...sounds like if it wasn't for bad luck you wouldn't have any at all...


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## gmhammes

most days i miss living in the country but days like those i am thankful for moving to the city closer to the store!


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## Itsdanf

I'm hoping my luck will change this time. Got a different sink, going with a 20 guage instead of the 18 guage we got previously. Ths new one has a flat rim, instead of a rolled-over edge -- should contour much better. Also, I like the clamp system on this one better.

Just making a quick update (only got on the computer to get some unrelated info I need). More later.......... Dan

PS: Keith, sounds like you're also old enough to remember Hee Haw: "Gloom, dispair and agony on me. Deep, dark depression, excessive misery. If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. Gloom, dispair and agony on me." That about spelled out my morning! :laughing:

PPS: Despite living out a ways, I'm only about 5 miles from a Lowes, and 6 from THD. My saw return trip (mentioned in an earlier post) was much longer, since I had to return it to the H.D where I originally bought the saw -- a different town.


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## cocobolo

Right! I'm pretty certain I'm older than you are!:wheelchair:


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## Itsdanf

After all the drama/frustration of the morning, the rest of the day actually went okay. 

The new sink looks a bit different, with more "stamped fru-fru" than I'd normally prefer, but this wasn't a time for lengthy shopping. We picked it because mostly because the 4th hole (for the Insta-Hot) was better-placed than other options. 

Anyway, I really like the different clamping method. The previous sink (or should I say, the previous 3 sinks :whistling2 required tightening a nut on a bolt. The bolt was so long, I had to cut it shorter for the socket wrench to reach it; however, by the time it started getting tight, the bolt usually still got in the way. The new sink's clamps use a screw, which worked MUCH better. I cut a few extra notches -- this time in the front -- to help get a better hold, since there wasn't much remaining lip on the front countertop.


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## cocobolo

Well, it certainly _looks_ OK, but as we all know it's the wife who needs to be pleased.

Is she happy with it now?


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## Itsdanf

After re-installing the main faucet, Insta-Hot faucet and supply lines, I put in the clamps and gooped everything up with sealant. I let them set for a while, then plopped the sink in the hole. Struggled to get a couple clamps inserted into the notches (tight space to work in), but got everything clamped up. The sink settled in quite well.

Then the rest of the story: I hooked up the water supplies. I mounted the tank for the Insta-Hot. I installed the disposal (which was easier than I expected; just follow the directions). Installed the 2nd basin's drain basket. Hooked up all the drain pipes (quite happy that all came together with minimal trimming). Took a while to get it all done, but...it's done!

Then the moment of truth: Ran water. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Not a drip. Life is good!


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## Itsdanf

By the way, in the last photo of my last post, you may notice the existence of a back-splash. The countertop fabricator completed it today, so I took a break to pick it up.

It's just sitting there now. I'll glue it up a little later. (Not tomorrow; Sorry Ghostrider, the pattern is full). There are a couple gentle gaps along the bottom. The fabricator suggested using a piece of 2x between the top of the back-splash and the underside of the wall cabinets to push the back-splash down at the gaps, and to leave it there for a day or two to let the construction adhesive fully set.


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## Itsdanf

cocobolo said:


> Well, it certainly _looks_ OK, but as we all know it's the wife who needs to be pleased.
> 
> Is she happy with it now?


I probably could have rigged up a metal bucket with a garden hose, and she would have been thrilled, just to have a kitchen sink again! :laughing: :no:

No, seriously, she's definitely happy with it! :thumbsup:


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## cocobolo

A hearty CONGRATULATIONS from the old guy up here!!!


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## Sheila4467

Beautiful! I like it!

So glad things are going better.


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## Itsdanf

Thanks all for the kind feedback!

My work in the kitchen is winding down. I installed the back-splash today. Just some construction adhesive on the bottom and back, and clamped in place with wood pieces -- some pressing into the wall, and some pressing down. The wood went where there were gaps in the wall or countertop.

I also did a little touch-up mudding of the wall above the back-splash, as my wife's decided to paint it, instead of tiling.


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## Itsdanf

Also, I finally got the cabinet doors back on. Had one major problem: The sink cabinet doors didn't fit right, since I'd screwed up the face frame measurements previously! :furious: 

Y'know that extra piece of wood I put on the left side of the faceframe, because the face frame was not wide enough (post 134)? If I'd been smart, I would have put it on the right side, not the left! When I positioned the original doors and fake drawer front on the new cabinet, I immediately saw that the doors didnt' center over the center of the face frame.

Of course, a wise man once said "it's only a mistake if you _can't_ fix it." So I fixed it: I installed the right door over as much as I could, then installed the left door as close to the right as possible (forgetting about the 1" reveal that the rest of the cabinets in the room have between two facing doors), making sure the remaining gap had face frame behind it (just barely). To make this work, I had to trim the fake drawer front about 3/8" on each side, so it would remain aligned with the doors beneath.

The result? Visually fine, and unless someone snoops around by opening cabinet doors, highly unlikely to be noticed. My wife's fine with it, too thumbup.


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## cocobolo

Itsdanf said:


> Also, I finally got the cabinet doors back on. Had one major problem: The sink cabinet doors didn't fit right, since I'd screwed up the face frame measurements previously! :furious:
> 
> Y'know that extra piece of wood I put on the left side of the faceframe, because the face frame was not wide enough (post 134)? If I'd been smart, I would have put it on the right side, not the left! When I positioned the original doors and fake drawer front on the new cabinet, I immediately saw that the doors didnt' center over the center of the face frame.
> 
> Of course, a wise man once said "it's only a mistake if you _can't_ fix it." So I fixed it: I installed the right door over as much as I could, then installed the left door as close to the right as possible (forgetting about the 1" reveal that the rest of the cabinets in the room have between two facing doors), making sure the remaining gap had face frame behind it (just barely). To make this work, I had to trim the fake drawer front about 3/8" on each side, so it would remain aligned with the doors beneath.
> 
> The result? Visually fine, and unless someone snoops around by opening cabinet doors, highly unlikely to be noticed. My wife's fine with it, too thumbup.


You _do_ realize that on my next trip to Texas...


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## Itsdanf

THE END. 

This thread started when a water leak forced me to break apart the kitchen cabinets to repair the damage. It was an unintended opportunity to remodel our dated kitchen, so I thought I'd document the effort (with Cocobolo and Dorf Dude's threads as my main inspirations).

It's been an odd journey, with unintended major electrical work, table saw problems that delayed cabinet construction, and finally an earlier-than-expected exit from retirement, which forced me to cancel the "remodel" and simply repair as quick and dirty as possible in the little time I had left.

Now, my time is up, and I head to DC this week to start the new career. I'll be living in apartments around the world for the next 10 years or so, so my DIY days are basically at an end, until I retire again.

I have no trades training/background (didn't even learn any DIY stuff from my father). I'm just a self-taught DIY enthusiast! My main purpose in documenting this project was for fellow non-expert enthusiasts to learn from my successes and benefit from my errors -- and to humor any experts willing to follow my stumbling efforts. Hopefully the folks causing the almost-8,000 hits to this thread have got something useful out of it.

I've gotten more out of DIY Chatroom than you can ever imagine. In addition to the great feedback I've gotten on this thread, I've been invaluably helped (directly, and through research) on the other forums here -- particularly the Electrical forum, which rocks! This site's helped me save huge bucks, given me such increased knowledge, and provided me wonderful entertainment! Great people here.

But I've done all I can with the kitchen now. The rest of the work will be my wife's to accomplish. My DIY days are officially over (for now...)

Thanks to everyone for your help and support!!

My very best,
Dan


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## cocobolo

Dan...it is we who owe you a vote of thanks.:thumbsup:

We knew just what kind of time constraints you were under, and given the circumstances you needed to function in, you have done an exceptionally fine job.:thumbup:

I am 100% certain that everyone who has been enjoying your thread will not be likely to forget you any time soon. And there is absolutely no doubt that you have succeeded admirably in providing inspiration, and indeed hope, to anyone contemplating doing something along the lines of what you have just done.

You have certainly had more than your share of Murphy moments, heaven knows - haven't we all. You just seemed to get more than your fair share.

While I will bid you adieu for now, I hope that we may meet again somewhere on the web in the not too distant future.:yes:

So, again, my thanks for an enjoyable ride through all your trials and tribulations.:wink:

My very best wishes for your future success as you come out of retirement.


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## shumakerscott

*Germany*

If your travels bring you to Germany you had better stop by:yes:. dorf dude...


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## Sheila4467

May your life be even happier than it ever has been before, and may your lovely wife enjoy the kitchen you prepared for her. 

I have so enjoyed your posts. Thank you!


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