# Looking for suggestions on a High efficiency Wood burning fireplace



## Solaritu (May 27, 2014)

I have a fire place and I hate it! We live in a place with a only Electric. the fireplace had two sides open (front and right). I would like to tear the fireplace out, and realign it so it is only a 1 sided fireplace i.e. turning it 45*.

I live in upstate and there is no shortage of hardwood trees. I went to the local fireplace shop and they wanted to sell me an Pacific Energy Neo 2.5 insert for $3000 and a SS heavy duty liner for $1000. He said it normally is about $800 for just dropping it in and installing it, etc. Though if I want to do a remodel it will be a lot more. The price seems a bit steep for what I was getting. The cost isn't really an issue, I just hate to find out I overpaid for something. I am looking for a high efficiency insert and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reviews on them. Any suggestions on sites to look at? Lastly any idea what a ballpark range of putting a new fireplace in would cost for labor? Nothing too elaborate. I have remodel a bathroom, though I have never played with fire.

The price of electricity is low here, though when it gets really cold the heat pump can't keep up, so the aux heat kicks on and that burns a lot of cash. We average about $75/month for electric, though the Winter bills can be upward of $300/month. Also would be nice to have an emergency source of heat if the power goes out.

Thanks in Advance!


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Need some pictures.
Price sounds about right to me.
Try some more places and compare prices.
Only way to find local prices is to make some local calls to some masons.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I have a Jotul Winterport fireplace insert. It is not quite as efficient as a freestanding wood stove because some of the heat radiates outward through the brick chimney, however it is light years ahead of any fireplace, many of which are negatively efficient (they consume more heat from the house than they radiate).

No matter what the claims of the industry, there is no wood stove on the planet that is better than 50% overall efficient, for a variety of reasons that simply cannot be overcome. However, wood is relatively inexpensive, so even a 50% efficient stove is less costly per BTU delivered than electric in most cases, and certainly less expensive than fuel oil, which is my second heat source.

I have been quite happy with my Jotul wood stove insert, however it is not able to heat my entire 2000 sf house, in fact it is barely able to heat the ground floor (about 1000 sf). This despite the fact that my house if well insulated, however the windows are poor.

As I recall, I paid about $2500 or maybe $3000 for the unit some six years ago, plus another $1000 or so for installation (included a new stainless steel liner for my chimney). Based on historical usage, we save about 500 gallons of fuel oil each year, and burn about 4 cords of wood, maybe 5 in a really tough winter when someone is home to actually keep the fire going all day (that only happens when I am unemployed). But the fire is really nice to look at, and the dogs love to hang out in front of the stove, so it is OK. And the unit is really well built, so will probably last at least 20 years. But of course there are many other fireplace wood stove inserts available, so check them out, and make sure you like the appearance of what you get, you are going to be looking at it a long time.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Solaritu said:


> I have a fire place and I hate it! We live in a place with a only Electric. the fireplace had two sides open (front and right). I would like to tear the fireplace out, and realign it so it is only a 1 sided fireplace i.e. turning it 45*.
> 
> I live in upstate and there is no shortage of hardwood trees. I went to the local fireplace shop and they wanted to sell me an Pacific Energy Neo 2.5 insert for $3000 and a SS heavy duty liner for $1000. He said it normally is about $800 for just dropping it in and installing it, etc. Though if I want to do a remodel it will be a lot more. The price seems a bit steep for what I was getting. The cost isn't really an issue, I just hate to find out I overpaid for something. I am looking for a high efficiency insert and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reviews on them. Any suggestions on sites to look at? Lastly any idea what a ballpark range of putting a new fireplace in would cost for labor? Nothing too elaborate. I have remodel a bathroom, though I have never played with fire.
> 
> ...


Check out "hearth dot com"" there's more information there on this subject than you'll ever have time to process.........


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I have a Jotul Winterport fireplace insert. It is not quite as efficient as a freestanding wood stove because some of the heat radiates outward through the brick chimney,* however it is light years ahead of any fireplace, many of which are negatively efficient (they consume more heat from the house than they radiate).
> *
> 
> Simply not true, stop reading the marketing produced by furnace/fireplace manufacturer's and do some objective, independent study of your own. If what your saying is true, we wouldn't be here. All of the pioneers in this country would have froze to death when they lit their fireplaces.....
> ...


Sorry you have had such a bad experience with wood heat, but I have a wood furnace connected to stand-alone duct work that will easily heat 2000 sq. feet of home with less than 4 cords of quality wood per year. Wood gasification in these units has come a long way. Wisconsin isn't exactly a tropical climate either........


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm also sorry you haven't been satisfied with your woodburner. I ran one from '95 to '00 and all was well. It was a Jotul Fireside and I heated a 2000 SF home with it. The upper story had no wall insulation. The attic was insulated well. There was no insulation in the basement walls. Windows and doors were new and energy efficient.

I have hesitated to use one in a modern home because I'm afraid it would drive you out of the house. People might start to wonder why you were in your underwear all the time.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> Sorry you have had such a bad experience with wood heat, but I have a wood furnace connected to stand-alone duct work that will easily heat 2000 sq. feet of home with less than 4 cords of quality wood per year. Wood gasification in these units has come a long way. Wisconsin isn't exactly a tropical climate either........


Not sure what wood you are calling a quality wood. But at an average of 20,000,000 BTUs per cord(gross heat value) of quality wood. 1 cord is about the same gross heat value of 143 gallons of #2 heating oil. So your saying it would take less then 570 gallons of oil to heat your house. So your house is well insulated, and fairly tightly constructed. 

Does your insert use indoor air for combustion, or outdoor air, big difference on actual heating efficiency between the 2 styles/types.



> 4 cords of wood with a 20,000,000 BTU value per cord is about 12,800 pounds of wood.
> 570 gallons of #2 heating oil, 4,178 pounds.


Just some trivial info above.


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## Solaritu (May 27, 2014)

Here is my fireplace, I don't like how it has two sides and how it is positioned. I want to turn it more into that is angled like these: http://cornerfireplaceideas.com/stone/traditional-corner-stone-fireplace-designs/

We are thinking of maybe some masonry around the non-combustable areas and and a wood surround mantle around that, then just dry wall.


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## Solaritu (May 27, 2014)

I was taking a look at some fire places and inserts online. Correct me if I am wrong are "high efficiency fireplaces" labeled for new builds, while "inserts" are for remodels? I see fireplace that has the ability to use outdoor and indoor air. It also has ports to connect a vents for forced air, which is what my house is. The Napoleon NZ3000 fire place is also about $1,200 more than the other one I am looking at, though it looks like it has more features. The house is very well insulated at the same time, so long as we don't go to aux heat, costs aren't bad. We have Anderson windows that have to be less than a decade old. Our walls all have bats and them and our attic has a couple feet of insulation. Each floor is about 812ft^2 and we have a basement that is about 200-300ft^2 that is finished with vents.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't like to send people off site, but the link jomamma gave you has tons of good information. I did a lot of research there before we installed a Freedom insert into our fireplace several years ago. And it has made a world of difference. 

I'm no expert, but I believe the problem with replacing one fireplace with another is the chimneys may not line up, especially when changing the angle. An insert is more flexible. 
As Daniel mentioned, a free standing stove is the most energy efficient. The main drawback is it takes up square footage of floor space, but it looks like you may be pretty well set up for it if you want to go that route. Small children are another concern. 

To add my 2 cents to the disagreement. Before we installed the insert, during the winter when not in use, the area in front of the fireplace was significantly colder than the rest of the house. The insert cut our heating bills dramatically. Even if not buring, the insert still plugged the big gaping hole in the wall that was the fireplace. 

Maybe newer fireplaces are built not to lose heat when not in use, unlike my 35 year old dinosaur, but the pioneers weren't paying the local PoCo for central heat that was lost. ANY heat was a plus.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I have been quite happy with my Jotul wood stove insert, however it is not able to heat my entire 2000 sf house, in fact it is barely able to heat the ground floor (about 1000 sf). This despite the fact that my house if well insulated, however the windows are poor..


I have a 1800 sf house and my insert can get the house TOO warm even if the temp is in the teens or lower, (we would often close the bedroom doors in the evening to keep them cool enough) but the place was designed with the idea of heating with wood. 

As far a heating a whole house, I assume it has as much to do with the layout as the insulation.


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## Solaritu (May 27, 2014)

Thanks for the site suggestion, I made a post there for more information included a bit of what I learned here. I guess one concern is will the fire place be "too efficient" and be to warm to run?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Not sure what wood you are calling a quality wood. But at an average of 20,000,000 BTUs per cord(gross heat value) of quality wood. 1 cord is about the same gross heat value of 143 gallons of #2 heating oil. So your saying it would take less then 570 gallons of oil to heat your house. So your house is well insulated, and fairly tightly constructed.
> 
> Does your insert use indoor air for combustion, or outdoor air, big difference on actual heating efficiency between the 2 styles/types.
> 
> Just some trivial info above.


I burn mostly Ash that's been well seasoned, and under 20% moisture content typically. Pretty easy to do here as the emerald ash borer rolls through our area.

Your numbers aren't too far off, as I always heated with #2 oil until this last winter when I had the furnace switched out to a far more efficient propane furnace and added the wood furnace at the same time. Many mild winters, I could get by on less than 500 gallons of oil (I have an inground 500 gallon tank, so it's pretty easy to monitor) but on colder winters, like last year and the fact that my wife is home all day watching kids from home, we require more fuel to heat our home. As cold as it was last winter, I wouldn't be surprised if we had used between 800-1000 gallons of oil, if we still burned it.


I think you may be questioning my numbers based on an assumption of efficiency. I had a 20 year old "80%" oil burner furnace before that was probably closer to 50% efficiency in the real world, replaced by a modern EPA certified wood furnace, so you have to calculate the output accordingly.

As for the fresh air, the answer is "no" at this point. I've considered extinding a 3" duct I already have for cold air to near the wood furnace, but in research, apparently these EPA stoves like warm conditioned air better for combustion and I'm not sure it's worth the effort......


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## Solaritu (May 27, 2014)

Interesting point about cold air and EPA stoves. I remember hearing/reading some where that some chimneys have an two layers. One for flu gasses that go up the center and one on the outside that is for combustion. I hear the flu gasses warm up the combustion air.

Also that other side is awesome for fire place information. So much so I am back on this forum asking HVAC group about connecting it to my forced air =)


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> I burn mostly Ash that's been well seasoned, and under 20% moisture content typically. Pretty easy to do here as the emerald ash borer rolls through our area.
> 
> Your numbers aren't too far off, as I always heated with #2 oil until this last winter when I had the furnace switched out to a far more efficient propane furnace and added the wood furnace at the same time. Many mild winters, I could get by on less than 500 gallons of oil (I have an inground 500 gallon tank, so it's pretty easy to monitor) but on colder winters, like last year and the fact that my wife is home all day watching kids from home, we require more fuel to heat our home. As cold as it was last winter, I wouldn't be surprised if we had used between 800-1000 gallons of oil, if we still burned it.
> 
> ...


Ash would be 22,300,000 BTUs to a cord.

Using outdoor air, helps keep the indoor RH at a higher level.

Unless it was neglected, a 20 year old oil furnace should be very close to its original 80% AFUE rating.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Ash would be 22,300,000 BTUs to a cord.
> 
> Using outdoor air, helps keep the indoor RH at a higher level.
> 
> Unless it was neglected, a 20 year old oil furnace should be very close to its original 80% AFUE rating.


I trust my HVAC guy, I've known and worked with him for decades, and he was fairly certain that my existing furnace was no where near 80% efficient. I'd have to agree considering how much less propane we've used after the conversion, and before the wood furnace. As for neglect, I attempted to clean the furnace once int he 10 years we've been here, and I'm confident it had never been done before, so I guess I would consider that fairly neglected.......


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> I trust my HVAC guy, I've known and worked with him for decades, and he was fairly certain that my existing furnace was no where near 80% efficient. I'd have to agree considering how much less propane we've used after the conversion, and before the wood furnace. As for neglect, I attempted to clean the furnace once int he 10 years we've been here, and I'm confident it had never been done before, so I guess I would consider that fairly neglected.......


Oil furnaces and boilers are suppose to be cleaned every year. And their combustion efficiency checked, and adjusted if need be. So yes, yours was neglected.


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