# Hope or False Hope



## ZZZZZ (Oct 1, 2014)

At the risk of being Captain Obvious, have you taken the car to a shop for a diagnosis?
.
.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

When you weren't looking maybe one of the boys and his buddys slipped a racing cam in it like my nephew did to his dad's 57 chevy.:biggrin2:That thing didn't idle worth a dam.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I would have thought that even a 1987 car would have lit a "check engine" light, and thrown a code. But maybe I am wrong.


My 2007 car had exhaust leak that effected the O2 sensor. It lit up the check engine light, and threw a code, but had no effect on engine smoothness or driveability that I could notice.


Nothing wrong with checking for an exhaust leak. But you are really grasping at straws without doing a proper diagnosis. On a 31 year old car, good chance you can find some leaks. How much are you willing to spend just to see if it makes your car run better? Gets expensive trying to fix a car changing one thing at a time until its right. Even if its OBD1, I would think it should throw a code. Invest in some diagnostics.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

Clean PCV and EGR?


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

ZZZZZ said:


> At the risk of being Captain Obvious, have you taken the car to a shop for a diagnosis?
> .
> .


Fair point, but have had it in shops before and wasted my $$. A sunbird is not a sexy car, and they offer a few "maybees"- maybe this, or maybe that, They take my $ and go on to the BMW's, etc. 

A vac leak on a car takes TLC to find. I have no hope with shops.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

SPS-1 said:


> I would have thought that even a 1987 car would have lit a "check engine" light, and thrown a code. But maybe I am wrong.
> 
> 
> My 2007 car had exhaust leak that effected the O2 sensor. It lit up the check engine light, and threw a code, but had no effect on engine smoothness or driveability that I could notice.
> ...


Yes, it does have OBD I. But no codes lighting up. 

"Proper diagnosis"? What exactly is a proper diagnosis? I have been doing proper diagnoses. Still, with no findings. A doctor can do a diagnosis and many times come up "empty", even though he did a "proper diagnosis". 

What do you mean by "investing in diagnostics"? That is a vague statement. Please elaborate with a "for example". Good chance I already did that.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

ukrkoz said:


> Clean PCV and EGR?


Good point, UK. Already did that. Even bought new. Also, new TPS, IAC. 

maybe exhaust needs to be "exhausted". hehe.......


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

papereater said:


> Yes, it does have OBD I. But no codes lighting up.



Then you have invested in diagnostics. I don't know anything about 1987 OBD1, but I find it unlikely that you have an exhaust leak I front of the O2 sensor if its not throwing a code. Like I said, nothing wrong with checking for exhaust leaks, but guessing is an expensive way of fixing a car.


I think you and I have gone to some of the same auto mechanics. Sorry, but I am not an auto mechanic, and even if I was, I would not be able to fix your car over the internet.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

If you had an exhaust leak, wouldn't you hear it? Don't shove water in your exhaust as O2's don't like it. That car has the Computer Command Control system. I would find what cylinder is missing and go from there. Smoke the intake system when engine is cold. Could be an fuel injector. Hard to diagnose from an arm chair. If you find the cylinder that's missing, swap injectors and see if the miss moves. I'm sure you have replaced spark plugs. swap the wires and see if miss moves. What have you replaced? :vs_cool:


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

You have already admitted that your not willing to do whatever it takes.?

All suggestions are thrown out with some excuse.

Question.

Are you writing an article or manual.?


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> If you had an exhaust leak, wouldn't you hear it? Don't shove water in your exhaust as O2's don't like it. That car has the Computer Command Control system. I would find what cylinder is missing and go from there. Smoke the intake system when engine is cold. Could be an fuel injector. Hard to diagnose from an arm chair. If you find the cylinder that's missing, swap injectors and see if the miss moves. I'm sure you have replaced spark plugs. swap the wires and see if miss moves. What have you replaced? :vs_cool:


Thanks, Brain. Not sure what a new "quiet" exhaust system sounds like anymore on a sunbird, especially if deterioration happens gradually can not notice it- kinda like looking in the mirror every day for 10 years- you dont notice youre getting old unless you freeze the image of before/after. 

Good point on soap getting near O2 sensor. I wont do that. As I said before I have done much work chasing this and cylinder work was part of it. no misfires- when I floor the gas pedal all 4 cylinders fire up very strongly, and the car "flies" with NO hesitation. Thats why it's so frustrating. It all points to a vac leak. But I havent found one yet. 

The car doesnt have 4 injectors- just 1 throttle body injector. As I said, new IAC, TPS, PCV, Injector, and other normal stuff like air cleaners, etc. 

So I should do a smoke test? Using mineral oil or some kind of glycol with heat? 

I know you fellow members cant fix my car- I have to do it. But big thanks so far for the replies!


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

ron45 said:


> You have already admitted that your not willing to do whatever it takes.?
> 
> All suggestions are thrown out with some excuse.
> 
> ...


Your post has not been useful or even relevant, or even coherent. But thanks for trying anyway. Im hopeful that the fellow members will continue to participate and contribute to my eventual success.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Brainbucket said:


> I would find what cylinder is missing and go from there.
> That's how we did it back in the good old days. If a cylinder isn't firing we pulled plug wires until we found it.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

ukrkoz said:


> Clean PCV and EGR?


Geez, UK, you just jogged my memory! Dang, I removed the EGR years ago, and forgot about it. I stoppered the port up with sheet metal/sealant. The car ran worse with it that without it. I did a egr check at that time (you know, you push underneath it with index finger whilst it runs at idle, and it should make rpm's go down). 

At that time people said I dont need it, so I yanked it. Might have been on the forum here(?)........


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Brainbucket said:
> 
> 
> > I would find what cylinder is missing and go from there.
> ...


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

EGR is needed for that car to run correctly. EGR does 3 things. #1 Allows exhaust gas to enter the cylinder by about 25% by volume so the gas/air mixture is reduced by 25% so you don't burn 100% gas/air mixture thus better gas mileage. #2 It also cools the cylinder temps so in doing so it allows #3 higher ignition timing. I know, it's weird but it works. I would put an EGR back on it. They have different types of EGRs so get the right one for your application. They have regular, positive back pressure, negative back pressure, so a simple "pull up on the diaphragm" really isn't a good test. Sounds like yours was bad. Stick a new one on there. Bet you a dime to a donut your vac leak is there. :vs_cool:


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Stupid lag. Double posted.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

papereater said:


> SeniorSitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, senior- yup- I did that- all cylinders do fire. And if one didnt, no way my car would "fly" when I floor it. All 4 seem to do well. I also pulled spark plugs, inspected, and all seem OK with no soot, etc.
> ...


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> EGR is needed for that car to run correctly. EGR does 3 things. #1 Allows exhaust gas to enter the cylinder by about 25% by volume so the gas/air mixture is reduced by 25% so you don't burn 100% gas/air mixture thus better gas mileage. #2 It also cools the cylinder temps so in doing so it allows #3 higher ignition timing. I know, it's weird but it works. I would put an EGR back on it. They have different types of EGRs so get the right one for your application. They have regular, positive back pressure, negative back pressure, so a simple "pull up on the diaphragm" really isn't a good test. Sounds like yours was bad. Stick a new one on there. Bet you a dime to a donut your vac leak is there. :vs_cool:


Good points, Brain. Better gas mileage is a GOOD thing always with me. Also, yes, I also read that bad egr = rough idle. So, I will older one from Rock Auto, for my car. Man. transmission. Cant wait to get it- I will get back to you here to let you(s) know!

Big thanks.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

After waiting about 2 weeks to get the proper EGR valve (first one delivered was the wrong type, had to wait for the right one to be sent) I finally installed it today and yes, the rough idle is gone. But the sad part is that the car now with EGR connected runs like HE++. Spits and sputters, kicks and bucks HARD. Soooo bad. Took it for a test drive to the store to buy vegetables and almost did not make it back. Shesh. I was afraif of getting my hopes up so high. Didnt run like tihs with EGR disconnected. Just rough idle. 

After 31 years one forgets all the stuff he did on his car, but I remember this now. Thats why I disconnected it. oh well, it was worth the $30 or so as a try, but Im back full circle as my memory returns. 

Why is my car running awfully with EGR connected, people? As always comments appreciated, even though our 1st attempt at solving the problem so far has not succeeded.

I have to disconnect it again tomorrow AM to get to work with the car.

Thanks.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

After waiting about 2 weeks to get the proper EGR valve (first one delivered was the wrong type, had to wait for the right one to be sent) I finally installed it today and yes, the rough idle is gone. But the sad part is that the car now with EGR connected runs like HE++. Spits and sputters, kicks and bucks HARD. Soooo bad. Took it for a test drive to the store to buy vegetables and almost did not make it back. Shesh. I was afraif of getting my hopes up so high. Didnt run like tihs with EGR disconnected. Just rough idle. 

After 31 years one forgets all the stuff he did on his car, but I remember this now. Thats why I disconnected it. oh well, it was worth the $30 or so as a try, but Im back full circle as my memory returns. 

Why is my car running awfully with EGR connected, people? As always comments appreciated, even though our 1st attempt at solving the problem so far has not succeeded.

I have to disconnect it again tomorrow AM to get to work with the car.

Thanks.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

why is this site double posting(?).


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

papereater said:


> why is this site double posting(?).


Because it gives you a option to click send again.?? and if you try to edit it out that open another can of worms. Then after screwing with it for a couple of minutes _- edit _-pops up as if it was necessary to inform everyone you have no idea what you are doing.:vs_mad:


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## Mike Milam (Mar 3, 2017)

Find a shop around that has a smoke machine. They can test by pumping smoke in it and see where it comes out. Easiest way to find vacuum leak.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Mike Milam said:


> Find a shop around that has a smoke machine. They can test by pumping smoke in it and see where it comes out. Easiest way to find vacuum leak.


Good point, Mike, but I called around in the past and only place here does only Mercedes. I offered to pay them whatever and they still declined. Sunbirds get no respect, even though mine has out lasted many Mercedes out there already. 

I still am puzzled as to why the car runs terrible with EGR connected. Im n ot talking about just idle, Im talking about acceleration as well, all the way up to 3500 rpm's. Kicks, stumbles/bucks/coughs.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Mike Milam said:


> Find a shop around that has a smoke machine. They can test by pumping smoke in it and see where it comes out. Easiest way to find vacuum leak.


But maybe I can make my own smoke machine- with mineral oil, a hot plate, a small vac pump, tubing. Not complicated.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Quote:_ I also pulled spark plugs, inspected, and all seem OK with no soot, etc._
_ and I took it to the store and almost did not make it back._
_******************************************************_
This reminds me of the time Iinstalled some plugs in my 283 chevy and nearly walked home. They were ford plugs and that made a believer in me about using OEM plugs. It would idle just fine but when ask to get on it just a little it would throw a complete fit.


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## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

Its hard to even find a pic of a intake manifold for a 87 Pontiac 2.2 engine. But I did find something interesting in an article. On some of the older Pontiac engines even if the EGR was good, it would still not work as it should. 

Because when the EGR was removed, down inside the intake manifold under the EGR just an inch or so down, is a port hole that runs out of the intake in to a airway channel, This port and channel can get so clogged with carbon, it renders the EGR useless. Just putting it our here for thought, as it may not even apply to the OP's model manifold.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Sounds like the EGR is opening to quickly for the engine to respond. There is a time delay switch that delays the opening by 85 seconds on that car. Yes I'm that old and seen this before. 40 year master auto tech. I started in 78. I hated that 2.0 but I was the only one that would work on them because the other techs would run when they came in. Gotta love it.:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Gregsoldtruck79 said:


> Its hard to even find a pic of a intake manifold for a 87 Pontiac 2.2 engine. But I did find something interesting in an article. On some of the older Pontiac engines even if the EGR was good, it would still not work as it should.
> 
> Because when the EGR was removed, down inside the intake manifold under the EGR just an inch or so down, is a port hole that runs out of the intake in to a airway channel, This port and channel can get so clogged with carbon, it renders the EGR useless. Just putting it our here for thought, as it may not even apply to the OP's model manifold.


Thanks, Greg. So, do you think it would help if I post some pictures of my manifold area? Just so you know, the EGR that was in there apparently was still "good", as it did not behave any differently as the new one I bought/installed 2 days ago..........so dont think it is the fault of the egr- gotta be something else like, as you say, manifold design, etc.]

Does this port that ca get clogged go toward the ENGINE or back toward the TBI? I can try to ream it with a brass brush(?).


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> Sounds like the EGR is opening to quickly for the engine to respond. There is a time delay switch that delays the opening by 85 seconds on that car. Yes I'm that old and seen this before. 40 year master auto tech. I started in 78. I hated that 2.0 but I was the only one that would work on them because the other techs would run when they came in. Gotta love it.:vs_cool:


Brain, if I take a picture and post it you will notice (and even if I dont take a pic, I can explain) that there is no electrical/electronic connections at all on my EGR. It is strictly a mushroom device, with a vac line going toward the back, into the TBI base. So no "delay switch", best as I can explain it. 

But, This interests me much- you are familiar with those J cars?? 2.0L sunbird? 
It has NO timing scale!! Even though the manual shows it! AND the engine bay shows sticker saying you have to time to some degrees before TDC. How can you do that with no timing scale??!

Anyway, doubt that can be thecause of my rough idle. Just worth mentioning.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I looked at a view vacuum diagrams. Need to know what engine, the 8th digit in the vin will tell me. Is it auto or manual and does it have cruise control? What model, base, SE, or GT? Gotta know what diagram to look at. Also, does it have a distributor or DIS (Distributorless Ignition System)?:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> I looked at a view vacuum diagrams. Need to know what engine, the 8th digit in the vin will tell me. Is it auto or manual and does it have cruise control? What model, base, SE, or GT? Gotta know what diagram to look at. Also, does it have a distributor or DIS (Distributorless Ignition System)?:vs_cool:


Sorry for delay in replying, Brain, I thouight this thread might have been dead, but glad you are still offering to help. 

8th digit is K, I believe it stands for 2.0L TBI injection. It IS a manual. GT. It does have a distributor cap, so I guess it is NOT a DIS, right? My Haynes manual shows it to be the HEI (distributor) system (High Energy Ignition- means it has supernatural powers, I guess). 

Drive it every day to work, get many stares from everyone. 210,000 miles now.......


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## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

papereater said:


> Thanks, Greg. So, do you think it would help if I post some pictures of my manifold area? Just so you know, the EGR that was in there apparently was still "good", as it did not behave any differently as the new one I bought/installed 2 days ago..........so dont think it is the fault of the egr- gotta be something else like, as you say, manifold design, etc.]
> 
> Does this port that ca get clogged go toward the ENGINE or back toward the TBI? I can try to ream it with a brass brush(?).


Sorry it was not an article, it was a UTOOB video that I watched. And as I said, it may not even be related to your intake manifold design. The tech in the video is using a high dollar scanner to diagnose a EGR performance on a 90's model engine. He will show the port cleaning that can be an issue on some intake manifolds.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=1987+pontiac+sunfire+2.2+intake+manifold+egr+port&&view=detail&mid=A3B1AFF9433D80443A34A3B1AFF9433D80443A34&&FORM=VRDGAR


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