# Terminating Hot Wires



## Mickey11 (Feb 16, 2011)

Am doing a full kitchen remodel and have a few hot wires that I will no longer need. They are not accessible as they are in the wall/ceiling and the same circuit powers other plugs and devices that I still will be using. Is there an acceptable or standard way to terminate these hot wires besides removing them? My plan is to terminate them in an accessible box with wire nuts/tape and a faceplate.

Thanks,
Mike


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## jasonreck71 (Jan 14, 2012)

That's how I would do it...


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## jlmran (Feb 8, 2010)

I detect a contradiction here. To me, a full kitchen remodel means naked walls (down to the studs). 

But since you mentioned the wires/cables are not accessible, then your plan sounds sufficient and logical.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Mickey11 said:


> Am doing a full kitchen remodel and have a few hot wires that I will no longer need. They are not accessible as they are in the wall/ceiling and the same circuit powers other plugs and devices that I still will be using. Is there an acceptable or standard way to terminate these hot wires besides removing them? My plan is to terminate them in an accessible box with wire nuts/tape and a faceplate.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


Well it can be done that fashion.

However if you going to do the full kitchen remodel which I know it will strip everything down to bare studs once you have wall open you will have no choice but get not only electrique stuff up to the date plus plumming stuff as well and other items as need to.

Are you aware with modern code requirment for kitchen ?? 

Merci,
Marc


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I do not associate a "full kitchen remodel" with removal of all of the drywall down to the studs.

I suggest not cutting short the unused wire ends, just in case a future remodeler wants to use them again. If an unused end happens to be at the same box as a receptacle or switch or light fixture you are adding or keeping, you can put a small wire nut and/or tapeon it and curl it up in there.


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## Mickey11 (Feb 16, 2011)

Poor terminology on my part I guess!? I will be replacing flooring, cabinets, counters, and appliances. But, not demoing to the studs as the drywall is in good shape and the layout has changed minimally. I do realize if a wall is opened the electrical will need to meet code.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I have had occasion to terminate a few unused hot wires, I simply install an outlet. If you don't use the outlet, no harm. An outlet costs a few dollars, to my mind makes more sense than leaving hot wires nutted off behind a plate. And if the outlet is hidden behind a cabinet, no big deal, I had a few of them in my house when I moved in, after some remodeling they "appeared" and are now in use.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> And if the outlet is hidden behind a cabinet, no big deal,


 
Do you mean a receptacle in a wall mounted box then a cabinet hung over the receptacle?
Are you kidding me??

I believe Article 100 of the NEC under "ACCESSIBLE" may have a differing opinion.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Having receptacles buried under a cabinet would not meet the NEC definition of accessible.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Well this is interesting regarding accessibility of outlet. NEC specifically allows an outlet (NEC uses the term outlet box I believe, not receptacle, but maybe it uses receptacle also) in the same space as an appliance (I think this is in Section 226). For example, you can install an outlet for a dishwasher behind the dishwasher, you can install an outlet for a stove behind the stove etc. Now we would all agree that the outlet is not readily accessible, since you have to remove the appliance to get access to the outlet, and the appliance may well be built in, like my oven, my dishwasher, my cooktop etc. But this is specifically allowed by NEC.

So if you had an outlet behind a cabinet, how is that any different, you have to remove the cabinet to get access to the outlet. Is it because it is harder to remove the cabinet? Not necessarily, cabinet might be light, and possibly is not attached to the wall by more than a couple of screws. If you want an accessible outlet, you could cut a hole in the cabinet, would that make the outlet acceptable? It certainly could be that a cabinet with a hole in it is not readily accessible, since the cabinet could be filled with items, but is that outlet accessible?

See, I think this question is a little harder to answer than it appears. And we have not even asked why an outlet needs to be accessible, but presumably if you terminate the wires and use a blank plate that does not need to be accessible. Is this a safety issue? Is there something that is likely to go wrong with an outlet that would require easy access that is not likely to go wrong with terminated wires in a box?


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## darlingm (Aug 20, 2011)

I just went through capping a lot of hot wires in my entire house, re-wiring quite a bit of it without breaking into the walls more than putting in new device boxes.

AllanJ makes a great point that I tried to stick with -- not making the wires shorter. However, I wound up choosing to snip off the exposed copper ends, but not trimming any part back that still had insulation on it. I wanted to be extremely sure that the loose wires, even though wire nutted & taped, wouldn't ever contact anything.

I then used an Ideal orange wire nut to cap the wire, with no bare copper exposed on the end of it. I found their orange was the smallest that could do this, because I wanted to minimize the space the wires not being used would take in the box. (Their gray & blue wouldn't take it with the insulation still on.)


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> Well this is interesting regarding accessibility of outlet. NEC specifically allows an outlet (NEC uses the term outlet box I believe, not receptacle, but maybe it uses receptacle also) in the same space as an appliance (I think this is in Section 226). For example, you can install an outlet for a dishwasher behind the dishwasher, you can install an outlet for a stove behind the stove etc. Now we would all agree that the outlet is not readily accessible, since you have to remove the appliance to get access to the outlet, and the appliance may well be built in, like my oven, my dishwasher, my cooktop etc. But this is specifically allowed by NEC.
> 
> So if you had an outlet behind a cabinet, how is that any different, you have to remove the cabinet to get access to the outlet. Is it because it is harder to remove the cabinet? Not necessarily, cabinet might be light, and possibly is not attached to the wall by more than a couple of screws. If you want an accessible outlet, you could cut a hole in the cabinet, would that make the outlet acceptable? It certainly could be that a cabinet with a hole in it is not readily accessible, since the cabinet could be filled with items, but is that outlet accessible?
> 
> See, I think this question is a little harder to answer than it appears. And we have not even asked why an outlet needs to be accessible, but presumably if you terminate the wires and use a blank plate that does not need to be accessible. Is this a safety issue? Is there something that is likely to go wrong with an outlet that would require easy access that is not likely to go wrong with terminated wires in a box?


The differance between installing a plug behind a stove or a fridge is it is actually being used to operate the appliance and you know it is there.
Its very easy to pull an appliance out of the way to access the plug if need be.
Ive never seen a built in dishwasher that was plugged into an outlet myself,always hardwired around here anyway.
So would you just bury a box behind drywall and call it good,what happens when something comes loose in that box and kills the rest of the plugs in that room but nobody knows where the box is buried?:whistling2:


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You cannot need to remove part of the building finish and still consider the box or receptacle accessible. Behind a lay-in ceiling tile is considered accessible. Even wires that would just be capped off would still need to be accessible.

The stove receptacle can be reached by removing the slide out under the stove.

If the device is covered by the cabinet there is no way anyone would even suspect it was there. Can you imagine trying to troubleshoot this?


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> Well this is interesting regarding accessibility of outlet. For example, you can install an outlet for a dishwasher behind the dishwasher, you can install an outlet for a stove behind the stove etc. Now we would all agree that the outlet is not readily accessible, since you have to remove the appliance to get access to the outlet


Dan you bring up some valid points. Lets go back to further clarify some definitions.

Wiring components are considered accessible when:
1)access can be gained without damaging the structure of the building or
2)they are not permanently closed in by the structore or finish of the building

Receptacles behind furniture ARE ACCESSIBLE because the furniture can be moved.




Daniel Holzman said:


> So if you had an outlet behind a cabinet, how is that any different, you have to remove the cabinet to get access to the outlet.


See above #2


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

OK hammerlane, I will assume your definition is correct. It seems unlikely that cabinets are considered part of the "structure of the building", as a cabinet performs no structural role. Therefore item 1 is satisfied by your definition, because access can be gained by moving the cabinet, or for that matter demolishing the cabinet, since the cabinet is not part of the building structure.

Item 2 appears to be satisfied as well, since the outlet is not permanently closed in by the "structure of the building", and cabinets are not typically considered finish, unless the term "finish" has an unusual meaning. I take finish to mean floor, tile, paint, wallpaper, drywall. But let's say cabinets are finish, then it would be necessary only to make the cabinets as easily movable as say a stove or a dishwasher to meet test 2.

I get the point about troubleshooting, a buried outlet would be very tough to troubleshoot, but that could be addressed by putting a note on the cabinet, say "outlet behind". Electricians do this sort of thing all the time, by marking a white wire black if it is hot. If the concern is that the note could be lost, well write in black felt tip on the back panel of the cabinet. Or cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to expose the outlet. And if it is accurate to state that even a box with terminated wires must be accessible, then you would need an access hole to the terminated wires anyway, so I don't see how an outlet is any different, maybe costs $3 more.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Ok so now I have to remove a cabinet to get access to the treasure map telling me where the boxes are? :laughing:


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The inspectors consider the cabinet to part of the building finish and would not allow them to block access to a junction box or a receptacle.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Daniel Holzman said:


> For example, you can install an outlet for a dishwasher behind the dishwasher


Around here, they like to see the receptacle for the DW in the cabinet next to the DW (IN, not behind). I can't site a code reference because I didn't care to argue the fact...it was easier to just put it in the cabinet.




Daniel Holzman said:


> Now we would all agree that the outlet is not readily accessible


Well.......not ALL of us :whistling2:


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Here's the way I usually think of it....

If someone will have to remove any part of the finished wall or any item attached to them that can't be removed AND put back up without tools and without damage to the item OR to the wall...to get at the spot I'm thinking about putting some sort of termination....that's the wrong place to put it.


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