# Attic Insulation Nightmare



## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Not sure there's any benefit to replacing the boards. 

I would just pull them and blow in new on top of the old to your desired R value. 

Once you have blown in you will not be able to store anything on top of it anyway.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

I would prefer to put the floorboards back down because I may need to go back up there from time to time and if its all blown it's going to be pretty difficult, not to mention slippery, to walk around on the joists. So I guess my question is geared more towards the process of adding the insualtion. Does my method sound ok? Would you do it differently? And considering the circumstances will I obtain good insluation if I blow in cellulose over all of the old stuff. I can attach pics if it helps... Thanks for your reply.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

So you wanted to put in an R-60 batt insulation into the house attic. But you want a section of flooring over the 2x6's?
To get a consistant R value, you will need to build up the flooring area to a height consistant with the insulation value in the rest of the attic.
All the batts should be unfaced.
Ron


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Actually, my mistake. I was going to put R30 faced batts in between the joists but that was before I realized that I only had 2x6s. Since the R30 is 9" high I figured it would be best to go with R19 which is 6" high and stick with the R30 unfaced rolls on top of that for a total R value of 49, which is way better than what I have now. And remember, this is when I thought I was removing all of the old and replacing with new. Since the job just isn't worth doing that way I figured I should just do what everyone suggests and blow in over top of the old stuff. I did read about building up the floor joists and I was thinking about doing that but that seems like a lot of work as well.


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## nickelshine (Dec 13, 2010)

musekmkr said:


> Actually, my mistake. I was going to put R30 faced batts in between the joists but that was before I realized that I only had 2x6s. Since the R30 is 9" high I figured it would be best to go with R19 which is 6" high and stick with the R30 unfaced rolls on top of that for a total R value of 49, which is way better than what I have now. And remember, this is when I thought I was removing all of the old and replacing with new. Since the job just isn't worth doing that way I figured I should just do what everyone suggests and blow in over top of the old stuff. I did read about building up the floor joists and I was thinking about doing that but that seems like a lot of work as well.


Doing a similar project in my 1000 sq ft attic. Was originally going to increase my insulation and lay new R-30 on top of my existing batt insulation. Well the existing batt insulation was down incorrectly, vapor barrier up. To correct the mistake, the previous owner or someone slit the face to release any moisture. OK fine, but I didn't feel comfortable laying the new on top anyway. So, I decided to remove the old batts and put down new with vapor barrier down. Well, the old batts were only R-11, but with about 3" of loose fiberglass underneath. Ugh! Well, I paused like you. Now a much more extensive project. I am going forward. Removing the batts & loose, putting down new R-19 (face down), then R-30 on top. Putting in a floor from front to back around my AC unit. R-30 will be on top. No storage. Have to do this on weekends, so this is a looooonng project. I have heard that blown in would be supply more R value, maybe easier, but since I am doing this in job in the winter (to avoid the heat of the attic), and in stages, removing the old quickly is not possible as a one man crew. The biggest benefit from this nightmare project has been the opportunity to AIR SEAL the attic floor. All kinds of exposed air leaks found. Including an entire bathroom wall. I am saving some of the old batts, just removing the face to use where needed. Going to go one better and put in a eave baffles, ridge vent and soffit vents - just gables now... some frost. Good Luck - 1963 PA house


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Thanks for your response, Nickelshine. I like to hear that you're moving forward with it. I'm not sure whos house is worse but I bet I have you beat  It sounds like our setup is pretty similar though. I am still unsure what to do. Again I would prefer to remove the old and start fresh but if I were going to do that I think I would need an insulation vacuum or better yet a vacuum truck. Removing everything does give you a great opportunity to air seal everything which is very important and I was looking forward to getting that done as well. I am a one man show too so it would take some time if done manually....which I've already attempted. 
I did manage to clear the insulation from the eaves and install the baffle vents though....so I did make some progress. I too have gable vents with vented soffit panels. I also plan on installing a ridge vent and adding more vented sofit panels when I get my roof done. 

But for right now I am still stuck on the best way to do the insulation. Here are my thoughts.

A. Blow-in cellulose over top of EVERYTHING and just forget about ever going up there again

B. Same as above but actually remove the floor boards and raise the joists first. This will allow more insulation between the joists while still keeping the flooring up there.

C. Attempt to remove everything again and go with the original plan only this time with a commercial vac intended for the job...


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Check locally for someone that removes insulation professionally, then air seal it yourself; http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-P...ency/how-to-seal-attic-air-leaks/Step-By-Step
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNEV_sFpJPB8DwLjAd-t6PJoO842EQ&cad=rja

Use different than R-30 with inherent convective loops or add cellulose or blanket on top; http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/how-buy-choose-fiberglass-insulation-90438/

Gary


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Thanks, Gary. Ironically I was reading that same article from familyhandyman last week. I was thinking about it the other day but couldn't remember what site I was on...since I've been all over the web researching... thanks for that.

So you're saying that you would remove everything then? I'll try to post some pics tonight so everyone can see what I'm up against.

thanks for the input thus far.


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## Arthropod (Jan 25, 2011)

*Attic insulation*

Great article on insulating attics especially the fact the you should seal parts of it first: http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...-sealing-guide/view?topic=resources/retrofits


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Some pics of the mess...

http://picasaweb.google.com/bill.meyers/HouseAttic?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7p_9qj2JXooQE&feat=directlink


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## cbaur88 (Jan 25, 2011)

musekmkr said:


> Some pics of the mess...
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/bill.meyers/HouseAttic?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7p_9qj2JXooQE&feat=directlink


Musekmkr, I am in a very similar boat. My batt insulation is installed backwards. Between my joists I have the same insulation shown in your pictures, that yellow looking blown in stuff. Not sure if that's fiberglass or cellulose? I wanted to rip everything out as well but I just know how hard that will be. It's such a nightmare in my attic and the thought of ripping that all out is just monumental, back breaking, miserable, work even with help from a friend. 

You have me an idea though of raising the joists giving more room for insulation between the joists. How would you go abouts doing that? One of my fears of simply blowing over top of what i have or removing my batts and blowing is sometimes I need to get up there to do house work. It's not often but how the hec do you work up there with 12+ inches of blown in insulation. Gotta be a nightmare, at least w/ batts you can roll them back a bit. Decisions decisions......I might just blow on top and h with it.:thumbsup:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Muse, cut back the wood boards from around the chimney and HVAC vent pipe, then flash around them with sheet tin and fire-proof foam in a can; http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/heat/keeping-heat-in-chap4.cfm?attr=4

Shorten up the flex duct and/or change it to straight wall for the bath fan to the gable, then insulate and v.b. it to prevent condensation inside. Add joists that bear on 1/2" shims over the existing bearing walls with end rim joists to keep them from rotating if using as an access walkway. I would toss the old f.g. and paper retarder as it's clumpy and useless. 

Gary


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

You have a lot more floorboards up there than you really need. I addded 18" of insulation to my attic last fall. ( Over top of loose fill ) I put in a raised walkway along the center of the attic, perhaps 18" wide. The walkway was the easiest part of the project, and my attic was in far better (neater) shape than yours. It would be nice to get rid of all that old stuff, but I wonder if its worth the trouble.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

cbaur88 - I hear ya about trying to work up there after the insulation is blown in and that's totally why I wanted to use the FG rolls so I could at least just move them out of the way if I had to access the ceiling, as you mentioned. As far as raising the joists, it is recommended if you have 2x6 joists. From what I read you literally just piggy back the joists with 2x4s. You can toe nail them in or drill holes in the top of the 2x4s and screw them in with long deck screws. I was thinking about using brackets to secure them but that may be overkill. Good luck with your project! I'll try to post pics when I finally get this done. I'm having a couple of pros come take a look and see what they'd recommend and charge. Anyone have a rough idea on what someone would charge to remove all or some and then blow in cellulose and maybe do the air sealing too? HD wants to charge $1 sq ft at R19. Seems way pricey...


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

GBR in WA said:


> Add joists that bear on 1/2" shims over the existing bearing walls with end rim joists to keep them from rotating if using as an access walkway.
> 
> Gary


Gary - Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand this.

I installed that flex pipe because I did have condenation leak back in to the BR. I think I can stretch the flex to the wall and just ditch the solid pipe. So you think I need to insulate it? I just created a reverse trap with the flex to keep any condensation from leaking back but I guess no condensation would be better.

I agree on the flashing around the chimney and flu, trouble is it's currently surrounded by vermiculite and I didn't want to disturb that if I didn't have to.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

SPS-1 said:


> You have a lot more floorboards up there than you really need. I addded 18" of insulation to my attic last fall. ( Over top of loose fill ) I put in a raised walkway along the center of the attic, perhaps 18" wide. The walkway was the easiest part of the project, and my attic was in far better (neater) shape than yours. It would be nice to get rid of all that old stuff, but I wonder if its worth the trouble.


I was thinking the same thing. The attic was this way when I bought the house. The previous owner did alot of wierd things, some overkill some rather creative. I would defintely consider raising and making the walk smaller as you suggested. How did you raise your joists? Any pics? Thanks for your response and tips. Yeah, ripping it all out would be a nightmare for sure. A vac would be the only way for me.


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## ubenhad4 (Jan 13, 2011)

A dust collector works great on removing insulation. When we do a remodel this is the first thing to tackle and I found years ago that a dust collector with a 4 in hose to suck and the blower shooting into a dumpster or my dump trailer is the way to go. Fast and no clogs.:thumbsup:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I would add new joists for storage, etc. and install them so after done there is no pressure on the existing old joists to give nail pops, cracks, by bearing the ends on the walls below, on the existing joists with a small strip of ply to give room for deflection at the center while walking. That way the ceiling is isolated from storage/person walking above.

At the fan, add a 1' or so vertical straight pipe (after elbow) to start your downward slope of straight pipe after the elbow for condensation to run out at the termination hood in the gable. So any moisture will not drip back into room. Tape all joints, even individual elbow ones, insulate and plastic v.b. Seal all holes around the fan, better yet, put a box around it, pp.36; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNEV_sFpJPB8DwLjAd-t6PJoO842EQ&cad=rja

Gary


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## ubenhad4 (Jan 13, 2011)

GBR in WA said:


> I would add new joists for storage, etc. and install them so after done there is no pressure on the existing old joists to give nail pops, cracks, by bearing the ends on the walls below, on the existing joists with a small strip of ply to give room for deflection at the center while walking. That way the ceiling is isolated from storage/person walking above.
> 
> At the fan, add a 1' or so vertical straight pipe (after elbow) to start your downward slope of straight pipe after the elbow for condensation to run out at the termination hood in the gable. So any moisture will not drip back into room. Tape all joints, even individual elbow ones, insulate and plastic v.b. Seal all holes around the fan, better yet, put a box around it, pp.36; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNEV_sFpJPB8DwLjAd-t6PJoO842EQ&cad=rja
> 
> Gary


 How in the world are you going to put in new ceiling joist without opening up the entire ceiling? Are you sure the existing structure can actually support the storage that would be added? Id be cautious on this one.


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## wsteuber (Jan 27, 2011)

I like SPS's idea of simply creating a raised walkway down the center, perpendicular to the current joists. Use 2x4's or 2x6's depending on how deep you need to go and blowing in over the old.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

ubenhad4 said:


> How in the world are you going to put in new ceiling joist without opening up the entire ceiling? Are you sure the existing structure can actually support the storage that would be added? Id be cautious on this one.


I still don't think I'm getting the idea that Gary is suggesting. Anyhow, if I were to raise the joists it would only be a more narrow walkway. This would be good for a few reasons.


More insulation thickness/R value
A platform to walk on
A place for storage
I don't really plan to store much of anything up there but I would like the option. Whatever I do store won't be of any significant weight (Xmas stuff etc...). Plus if I do this I will most likely replace all of the flooring up there with plywoood and probably narrow the walkway a bit. So the weight should be reduced pretty significantly.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

wsteuber said:


> I like SPS's idea of simply creating a raised walkway down the center, perpendicular to the current joists. Use 2x4's or 2x6's depending on how deep you need to go and blowing in over the old.


I like that idea as well. I would be raising the joists by running 2x4s parallel with the joists, correct? Would I reinforce those 2x4s by running another 2x4 perpendicular on each side, sort of like a wall frame but laying down? I feel like it wouldn't be very strong otherwise. This PDF (or see attached) shows a diagram on extending the joists but if I don't box it out it seems like it would be unstable... They should really make something that's meant for this type of thing but if they did it would probably be expensive and I would probably say "I can make that myself"..haha


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

This is how I did my walkway. I had some spare 1 x 3's and 2 x 12's, so that is what I made my risers out of. Nice part was that I could make all the risers in my basement beforehand. The 1 x 3 to the 2 x 12 is nails plus some PL-Premium. Probably lots of other ways to do it too. Oh, and it was actually just 11 inches of insulation I added. It must have just felt like 18 inches when I was trying to get the bales through the attic hatch. I have the original loose fill under there too, but you can't see it anymore.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Wow SPS, you literally just have a plank up there. Looks good though. What kind of insulation is that? It almost looks like that recycle denim insulation.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Post #23 is similar to what I tried to explain. The new joists would be bearing on ply pieces* directly on the old joists only over bearing walls. *Rather than toenail the new j. to the old, it would be spanning from ply to ply. No pressure would be on the middles of the old ones as they are elevated above them by 1/2" ply, only at the ends. This was for storage mainly, with adding any extra weight to the old joists.

Post #24 would work but add some ply on one side of the blocks for tip-over shear resistance. Nice job!

Gary


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Thank you. That is Rockwool batts. Two layers of R22. It looks wavy in the photo, but actually its very flat. What I don't like about the loose fill , is that if you end up going up in your attic a few times, the loose fill ends up all over. The blown in stuff is more economical though.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

To keep the gangplank in post 24 from sliding lengthwise and the risers tipping over like dominoes --- I would say that two 1x12's (could be 1x6's for 2x6 risers or 1/2 inch plywood of like size), 36* inches long, spanning any three risers on 16 inch centers each, horizontally on edge one on each side of the risers, will be sufficient. Use three screws per riser to hold these pieces on. For 2x4 risers use 52* inch 1x4's namely spanning 4 risers each, two screws as far apart as possible at each riser.

* Extends a little past the riser to reduce the chance of splitting with the screws tearing out.


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## cbaur88 (Jan 25, 2011)

Great information guys and thanks for sharing the diagrams about adding some planks up there. Got my mind spinning now or adding some planking. 

musekmkr - I had HD out for a quote, they wanted $1,300 for approx 600sq feet. They were simply going to blow over what I already have and just cover it, nothing more. That was way over priced IMO and I can certainly do that myself w/ renting a machine and material for a few hundred bucks. 

I know I'll be kicking myself if I just blow over top of everything next time I need to work up there. It's just such a nightmare of a job I almost want to just take this easy way out. As suggested, I think I'll try and remove the kraft paper from the batts up there and blow on top. Maybe if I add some planking it will be so hard once the loose crap is blown in. Good luck to you as well...

P.S. That rockwool looks like it's easy to move around vs. batts or blow in. Almost looks like hay bails.


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## cbaur88 (Jan 25, 2011)

Speaking of rock wool, the stuff in this photo looks like exactly what I have up there now between my joists. It's loose and looks identical. My home was build prob in the late 60's early 70's I'd say is a good guess.


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

cbaur88 - I had HD out as well last night and they wanted 1650 to go over everything. Of course the guy offered a "One time, we never do this" 20% promo that conveniently expires this Saturday. I called another Co. and they wanted 1300 to blow in R38 so I know HD is a rip. The other Co. also said that they would charge 1500 to remove everything and 200-300 more for air sealing. HD wanted 2900 just to remove! Even though the other Co. beat HD by a long shot I still think it's way too much....for me anyway. You have to ask yourself, would I remove everything for someone if they offered me $1500 bucks?...h yeah! I honestly think I'm just going to bite the bullet and try again for the removal. I know it will suck but I will be much happier in the end. Plus I want a clean area to work with so I can do a good job air sealing. I have a dropped soffit above my kitchen that it not insulated at all so that's one major thing that I need to fix. Plus I was going to replace a couple of my can lights with the IC approved ones. They are air tight and can have insulation right up against them. I'm still debating on how I want to approach this though. Do I shovel and bag, rent an ins. vac (235 daily) or buy a dust collector (90-125) from Harbor Freight? It may actually be easier, not to mention cheaper, to just shovel and bag. If I use a VAC I'll still have to empty the bag that comes with it in a trailer, a dumpster or in bags that I can dispose. Doing that by myself would suck and I'd rather not be going in and out of the attic through my house. My plan is to just get a small shovel that fits between the joists, buy some of those cardboard/temporary trash containers to help keep the bag upright and keep all of the bags up there until I'm done. When I'm finished I'll toss all of the bags out of the larger gable vent to the outside. This way nothing gets dragged through the house  Oh and I would be a bit more geared out this time...respirator instead of a dust mask, goggles and a paint suit.


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## TheCamper (Dec 4, 2009)

*A thought on an approach*

I have cleaned out attics of old fiberglass and rock wool insulation and fiberglass and cellulose blown in insulation. It is a miserable job, but I know myself well enough to know that I don't want to be second guessing myself after the job is done. If you clean out the attic you can seal any penetrations, fix up any wiring problems that may not be currently obvious, add your IC cans, install hard wired interconnected battery back up smoke and CO detectors, run that coax cable you wanted and install kraft faced fiberglass insulation batts with unfaced batts over the top and be set where you know you don't have to touch it again, and yes do the walk way too. I would look to see if I could open up the gable end, yes remove the siding and sheathing and perhaps a couple of gable studs and shovel, sweep, vacuum, blow (as with a leaf blower) the insulation out onto a large vinyl tarp laid out in the yard. When I have had blown in cellulose insulation blow off the tarp and onto a lawn, even though I raked up the cellulose, the grass died within a week, I figured the fire retardant killed the grass. Good Luck


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

TheCamper - I was with you 100% up until the remove siding part  I think maybe I will go with the FG batts though, just as I planned from the beginning.

SPS-1 - How do those Rockwool batts compare to FG? Are they better as far as insulation value goes? Where did you get them?


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Rockwool and fiberglass are pretty close in R value per inch. I like it because it is so dense and stable. Roxul is one of the more popular brands. You should find it at Lowes. The choice otherwise just comes down to the R-value number on the bag, the price on the bag, and the "square feet of coverage" number on the bag.
Glad to see you are going to do it right. 
I have never used a resperator, but its gotta beat a dust mask !!


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## mjzraz (Jun 28, 2008)

nickelshine said:


> I decided to remove the old batts and put down new with vapor barrier down. Well, the old batts were only R-11, but with about 3" of loose fiberglass underneath. Ugh! Well, I paused like you. Now a much more extensive project. I am going forward. Removing the batts & loose, putting down new R-19 (face down), then R-30 on top.
> The biggest benefit from this nightmare project has been the opportunity to AIR SEAL the attic floor. All kinds of exposed air leaks found. Including an entire bathroom wall. I am saving some of the old batts, just removing the face to use where needed. Going to go one better and put in a eave baffles, ridge vent and soffit vents - just gables now... some frost. Good Luck - 1963 PA house


Some pictures of this project would be awesome!

How does one install the kraft faced bats from inside the attic? aren't they normally installed prior to drywalling the ceilings?

I want to remove my insulation and air seal, install new insulation , but want to get the vapor barrier done right. I am in Maryland. 

I kind of liked the idea of DIY spray foam kits - getting enough to do a 1" layer for air/vaptor barrier then unfaced bats and/or blown in over top.


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## Jonnyss (Mar 17, 2011)

are you sure theres no vermiculite ?


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## musekmkr (Jan 23, 2011)

Oh there is but I decided to just go over everything with blown in cellulose. The job is done. I air saled as much as possible and blew in about 25 bags... Works for me and much, much easier. I wanted to do it the long and hard way but now that I look back I think I must have been crazy. That would have just been WAY too much work.


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