# Wiring a Spa and THHN question.



## skleinsmith (Mar 30, 2010)

I am wiring a Spa. I plan on doing the work/wire running my self and having and electrician do the final hookup.

Location = Shasta County CA.

This is the project. 

Spa needs 60Amp service (spa panel states 48 Amps - has 3 motors).

I have a 200 amp service with open breaker locations. I have 60 amp breaker (NOT GFCI - same brand as panel) for main box. (GFCI will be explained later.)

I have some THHN left over from other job (Sub panel in pump House = Romex (or similar) in house, to box then THHN into conduit Underground to Sub panel) #6 THHN wire (Red, Black, White, Green). 

Can i use THHN wire in the garage walls without putting it into conduit or is THHN wire only for conduit? Can i use THHN wire in the attic space or does it have to be in conduit?

I have 60 amp Spa GFCI box (plan to put ~15 feet (walking distance) from Spa). I was told that this is recommended to avoid trips due to "long" runs. Also i got SPA box for good price. Note GFCI = code and must be atleast 10 feet from spa (walking distance).

I have disconnect (required by local code) that will be 5-10 feet from Spa.

Total wire run = less than 50 feet.

Can i use the THHN that i have or do i need romex (or similar) in the walls and attic space? 

Can i run THHN in the walls but attic space has to also be in conduit? If that is the case can it go directly into conduit (pvc or that flex blue stuff) or does it have to be in a box first?

My current plan = starting at main pannel, 4 wires (red, black, white, green) 60 amp breaker into wall, thru header, thru attic space, into 3/4 pvc conduit, into GFCI box. Then 3 wire (red, black, green)(as spa is 2005 Maxx 705 and is 3 wire setup) into pvc 3/4 conduit, back into attic (out of conduit) thru attic, into 3/4 pvc conduit into 60A disconnect, Then back into 3/4 pvc back into attic (out of conduit), down wall into Box (no wire cutting here) into 3/4 liquid tight conduit to Spa.

Or do i need to get romex (or smilar) for in the walls and attic space. Also would i still use #6 romex and can it be in the 3/4 pvc conduit?

As i said previously. I have #6 THHN wire (red black, White & Green) already from previous job (bought rolls for cost savings). Thus i would like to use if i can.

Any other advise?

*Edit 3/30 22:00 pacific*

I plan on getting it inspected by county.

I was told by spa place & inspector that the quick disconnect has to be at least 5 feet and no greater than 10 feet. I was also told that the GFCI must be at least 10 feet way from spa. Thus i can NOT use the GFCI breaker as the disconnect.

I am now planning to do romex (#4 w/ 8 solid ground or #6 w/ 10 solid ground) from panel to GFCI then same from GFCI to Disconnect, then same to Box at side of house where i will have a splice and transfer to Liquid tight conduit and 4-#6 THHN/THWN to Spa.

Is the #10 ground wire ok, Is the # 10 ground wire ok or do i need to look for 6/4 (where all 4 wires are at least #6)?

Should i spend extra $ and up size wire to #4? 

Is the #10 ground wire ok or do i need to look for 6/4 (where all 4 wires are #6)? 

Regarding GFCI - I was told by spa place, electrician & inspector that i need a GFCI even for a 3 wire spa. According to the GFCI (Midwest with GE breaker) I bought it will still work with 2 hots and a ground (no neutral).

I will check the spa when it is wired to make sure that it is 3 or 4 wire. I will have all 4 wires run to the spa just incase (or if i ever change it out.)

*Edit 3/31 15:50 pacific*

I opened spa and confirmed that it is only a 3 wire system. This "*240 V 3 wire system*" is in bold text on the electrical box and inside the box the terminal is clearly marked (Red 120V /Black 120V /Green Ground). Everything goes thru the computer boards and the lights are 12V. Also the spa was previously wired the same way previously (i know that does not really matter).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

THHN needs conduit - always, and if its to be buried at all it needs to be THWN
There are very specific rules for wiring a Spa
Read up on NEC section 680


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

You have me somewhat confused regarding going back into the attic just to come back out to feed the spa outside. Why two disconnects? The spa box (pictured) includes the GFCI disconnect and the required convenience GFCI protected receptacle.

Just run the 3/4" conduit all the way from the panel straight to the spa disconnect panel. Then run another 3/4" conduit to the spa connection box. 
Here is a picture of a spa disconnect with receptacle. If you have one like this you need no other disconnect or receptacle. 

This job will require a permit and inspection. Talk to the AHJ now so you can get an idea of how the inspector wants things done. 
It is critical this job is performed to NEC standards at minimum. Your life or someone else's life may depend on it.


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## Rudeboy (Mar 6, 2010)

I imagine that he's trying to avoid running pipe in the garage or attic.

Pretty simple for him though:

Run 6-3 romex from panel to spa disco location.
Stub 6-3 romex out of the side of house. Knock out appropriate knockout.
Mount disco. Run conduit to spa. Run two #6 thwn, three if the spa requires neutral, don't forget to run a ground too. :yes:
Terminate conductors in spa, disco and panel.

Good to go.

Some spa discos don't have a factory installed GFCI receptacle so you may need to deal with that one too.


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

if you can get three 6's and a ground into 3/4" pvc then your welcome to try it but i'm about 98% sure that this is going to go way over the conduit fill allowance. As for the disconnect then the box pictured above is the way to go...no point in having two disconnecting points. You'll either have to run romex from the panel to the point where it goes outside or run conduit all the way from the panel. Keep in mind that the wires need to be in a pvc sleave as they go through the wall and if i'm not mistaken the pipe will need to be sealed at both ends. Duct seal works well for this.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

(3) #6's & (1) #8 will fit in 3/4" & meet 40% fill per calculator
Bigger is better...I think I used 1" on mine
If you have a light in the Spa then you probably need 4 wires


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## Rudeboy (Mar 6, 2010)

He only needs two #6's and a ground. No neutral. Even still I'd prolly go with 1" pvc.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

skleinsmith said:


> I plan on doing the work/wire running my self and having and electrician do the final hookup.


So you are going to do all the hard and code intensive work and let the electrician do the easy stuff?? 

Why do SO many folks have this mentality? That _"the hook-ups"_ are the hard or dangerous part.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> He only needs two #6's and a ground. No neutral. Even still I'd prolly go with 1" pvc.


What are you basing this on ?

*EDIT* ...Thanks...read that 3x & still missed he stated 3 wire spa


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## Rudeboy (Mar 6, 2010)

I think he's way over thinking this and at the same trying to use the material he already owns. 

All of that in, out, up, down, back around would be much easier if you purchase some 6-3 romex and some staples.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

The spa box shown above is the way to go. The ones I have used contain a blank face GFCI that opens a contactor if a ground fault occurs. The ones I have used do not contain a GFCI receptacle. In our area this disconnect must be at least 5' from the spa and within sight of the spa.


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## Rudeboy (Mar 6, 2010)

Scuba_Dave said:


> What are you basing this on ?


In the OP he stated it. 
I've wired many a hot tub or spa that require no neutral.:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

If the hot tub is a straght 240 volt set up no netural then it will not needed however you *still* need to bring the netural to the GFCI breaker or spa panel as JV posted.

Btw there is a bit of restriction on codewise so inspector will have best answer for the codewise in your area.

Merci,Marc


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> If the hot tub is a straght 240 volt set up no netural then it will not needed however you *still* need to bring the netural to the GFCI breaker or spa panel as JV posted.
> 
> Btw there is a bit of restriction on codewise so inspector will have best answer for the codewise in your area.
> 
> Merci,Marc


That's interesting...didn't think of that - neutral to the GFCI
I've never connected a GFCI without a neutral running to a hot tub
So the GFCI monitor both hots & if there is a problem it then trips ?
A little different to think of it working without a neutral to the device


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

That GFCI will work just fine without a neutral if the spa does not require one.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

brric said:


> That GFCI will work just fine without a neutral if the spa does not require one.


 I just want to make it clear I am pretty sure you understand this but if you have GFCI breaker at the spa panel then you must bring the netural to the spa panel but after the GFCI if spa do not require the netural then you can leave the netural out of it but you will need netural to get the GFCI to function without netural the GFCI will not function at all.

Merci,Marc


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

Scuba_Dave said:


> (3) #6's & (1) #8 will fit in 3/4" & meet 40% fill per calculator
> Bigger is better...I think I used 1" on mine
> If you have a light in the Spa then you probably need 4 wires


 i had to find the right table from the NEC on this as i'm used to dealing with the CEC but pvc 40 is good for 4 6's and 80 is only good for 3....add in the ground and your over the limit. Pvc conduit fill rules are different from any metal conduit.
 so we're both right....it's got to be 1" before the GFCI and 3/4" is good afterwards.


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## Rudeboy (Mar 6, 2010)

frenchelectrican said:


> If the hot tub is a straght 240 volt set up no netural then it will not needed however you *still* need to bring the netural to the GFCI breaker or spa panel as JV posted.
> 
> Btw there is a bit of restriction on codewise so inspector will have best answer for the codewise in your area.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Yes, your absolutely correct.


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## skleinsmith (Mar 30, 2010)

*2 disconnects - reason*

I was told by spa place & inspector that the quick disconnect has to be at least 5 feet and no greater than 10 feet. I was also told that the GFCI must be at least 10 feet way from spa. Thus i can NOT use the GFCI breaker as the disconnect.

I am now planning to do romex (#4 w/ 8 solid ground or #6 w/ 10 solid ground) from panel to GFCI then same from GFCI to Disconnect, then same to Box at side of house where i will have a splice and transfer to Liquid tight conduit and 4-#6 THHN/THWN to Spa.

Is the #10 ground wire ok, Is the # 10 ground wire ok or do i need to look for 6/4 (where all 4 wires are at least #6)? 

Should i spend extra $ and up size wire to #4? 

Is the #10 ground wire ok or do i need to look for 6/4 (where all 4 wires are #6)? 

Regarding GFCI - I was told by spa place, electrician & inspector that i need a GFCI even for a 3 wire spa. According to the GFCI (Midwest with GE breaker) I bought it will still work with 2 hots and a ground (no neutral).


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## g.gauvreau (Feb 18, 2009)

If ALL the equipment on the hot tub is 220 volt (Pumps heater ozone)The 3 wire set up will work. But if any of the equipment needs to operate on 120 volt, this is where your load neutral will come into the picture (4 wire) NOTE I have seen many people for some reason get the idea that a ground rod at the hot tub will give them their "earth ground" and they won't run a ground wire from the main panel,:no: RUN YOUR GROUND WIRE ALL THE WAY TO YOUR MAIN PANEL. :yes: . Pay attention to your GFCI breaker.Your "load" neutral needs to terminate on the breaker not the neutral buss. The "pigtail" from the breaker goes to the buss bar. I've seen the "Best" of electricians mess that one up.

You misunderstood your inspector/ Spa place your means of disconnect CANNOT be closer than 5 feet, but it needs to be within sight of the equipment, feeding the tub with 6/3 w ground will work just fine.
Just a note I have had some inspectors make sure that the pumps & control panel be bonded w/ #6 bare copper to the control panel ground buss. (within tub cabinet)


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

there's seems to be alot of confusion as to wether or not you need a neutral on the line side to the GFCI. As french stated it is an absolute must as without it the electronics in the GFCI won't work right. It's not required on the load though. I'm sure if you look in your owners manual it'll show a diagram with a line side neutral and no load side neutral....i'd double check the code on spas as well as i think the spa place is yanking your chain on needing the double disconnect. All you should need is the one GFCI disconnect
taken from NEC
"The maintenance disconnecting means must be readily accessible and within sight of the permanently installed pool, storable pool, outdoor spa, outdoor hot tub, or fountain equipment. It must also be at least 5 ft from any of these, unless separated from the open water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a 5-ft reach path or greater. Measure the horizontal distance from the water's edge along the shortest path required to reach the disconnecting means."
In addition when i was looking this up it also says that the second means of disconnect at the spa isn't required for family homes...only for commercial uses.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

g.gauvreau said:


> You misunderstood your inspector/ Spa place your means of disconnect CANNOT be closer than 5 feet, but it needs to be within sight of the equipment, feeding the tub with 6/3 w ground will work just fine.
> Just a note I have had some inspectors make sure that the pumps & control panel be bonded w/ #6 bare copper to the control panel ground buss. (within tub cabinet)


 I do not know if you are from Canada or USA but in USA if that person do run the conduit to the spa on the outdoor location you can not run bare conductor at all it have to be green in colour.

Merci,Marc


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

it's not legal in Canada either to run bare copper underground.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Andrew.,

If you have time can you run me the CEC code in your area for the code number ? so this way I can able keep it in my notepad in case someone try to shake the maple tree { just kidding :wink:} so that way I can able post the number to stop them in track :yes:

Merci,Marc


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

awww your going to make me get out my codebook :laughing:. I'll see what i can do about getting you that info. Actually it seems to me if i recall correctly that the only time it's permissable to run a bare ground in any type of conduit is if it's the only wire in the pipe. and i'm pretty sure it's exclusively for pvc. I'm not sure though as trade practice is to always use insulated. Wouldn't make much sense to put a bare ground in a chunk of emt...you'd need a whole lot of nolux for that one.


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## g.gauvreau (Feb 18, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> I do not know if you are from Canada or USA but in USA if that person do run the conduit to the spa on the outdoor location you can not run bare conductor at all it have to be green in colour.
> 
> Merci,Marc


The bare copper ground that I stated is NOT in the conduit. As stated the ground in the conduit needs to be a green insulated conductor.
The bare copper ground I am referring to bonds the pump motors & heater inside the spa cabinet, some inspectors will also require that ground to be installed UNBROKEN. What a pain in the butt that can be.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

g.gauvreau.,

I do understand that statement about the bare bonding conductor and yeah they can be pain in whatever .,,, but for my area if they request unbroken then I do use either single piece of bare conductor or irreversable compression crimps one of the two.

Merci,Marc


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

g.gauvreau said:


> The bare copper ground I am referring to bonds the pump motors & heater inside the spa cabinet, some inspectors will also require that ground to be installed UNBROKEN. What a pain in the butt that can be.


This is a BOND as you state. it is NOT a ground. 

There is NO requirement for this to be unbroken. If an inspector would demand that my first question would be "Where do I find that in the code book. 
For a package spa that WOULD be a PIA! Luckily package spas are always done at the factory.


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

i haven't done alot of spa's but the ones i have done are prewired at the factory. All you have to do is tie into an set of lugs.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Something not discussed on this thread is the equipotential bonding grid. If this spa sits on a concrete pad, on the ground or on paving stones or bricks the grid must be installed. 
Its much easier to install your grid now, not after you are done. You should discuss this with your inspector before you do anything.


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