# Commenting on Behr Paints



## athanman

I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints. 

At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints. 

So if you have any reviews please share them.


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## slickshift

athanman said:


> I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints.
> 
> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.
> 
> So if you have any reviews please share them.


I have used Behr paints and stains
I won't use them again
The best thing I can say about them is, if that is what the average homeowner thinks painting is like, then Behr has defininately got me jobs (Thanx B.)

I find it hard to work with and terrible at covering

Really, if you have been doing some painting lately and have sort of a handle on it, switch over to something good
After you've done a small room with the good stuff, actually before you finish, you'll forget the Behr stuff
It'll be quicker, nicer, better coverage...

I suggest going to a local paint shop and trying some Ben Moore for you're next project
You won't be disappointed


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## ProWallGuy

slickshift said:


> I have used Behr paints and stains
> I won't use them again
> The best thing I can say about them is, if that is what the average homeowner thinks painting is like, then Behr has defininately got me jobs (Thanx B.)
> 
> I find it hard to work with and terrible at covering
> 
> Really, if you have been doing some painting lately and have sort of a handle on it, switch over to something good
> After you've done a small room with the good stuff, actually before you finish, you'll forget the Behr stuff
> It'll be quicker, nicer, better coverage...
> 
> I suggest going to a local paint shop and trying some Ben Moore for you're next project
> You won't be disappointed


Word, ditto, yeppers, or anything I else i could say to agree with Mr. Slickshift.


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## baileyjune

I would appreciate any info on priming interior walls. I'm planning to use a bright red latex paint. I watch a lot of HGTV and on their shows, they say to use a tinted primer (the color of the paint) so that you will only need one coat. Someone told me to use a grey primer which will still require two coats. I'm really confused. Should I just use three coats of paint and forget the primer?

Thanks for the help.


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## slickshift

baileyjune said:


> I'm planning to use a bright red latex paint. I watch a lot of HGTV and on their shows, they say to use a tinted primer (the color of the paint) so that you will only need one coat.


That is not entirely accurate
You may "get away" with one coat with a tinted primer, but it's really not a good idea on many levels
Also, that goes entirely out the window with difficult colors, of which red is probably the most difficult
Red actually may take three coats no matter what you do

Really the best thing is to do the grey primer and try for two coats red
You will want to use a good quality paint, brushes, and roller sleeves
Tell your local paint store personel what you're doing, they'll help out with that stuff


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## Teetorbilt

I sub for BM but am not biased by it. I'm sure that SW makes an equiviilant paint for everything.

I prefer a white primer as it will bring out the true color of the topcoats better. There isn't a paint made that will cover in one coat. All aplications will leave 'baldies' where not enough paint was applied, the second coat will cover these unless you are really trying to get the 600 sq. ft. claimed by the manufacturer. Squeezing the paint might make a third coat required.


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## MasterStrokes

“Behr Paints” is hideous, vulgar, trash! The only thing I like about it is the plastic bucket. When you’re throwing a full gallon in an empty dumpster it doesn’t clang like metal buckets do.


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## housedocs

I just did a freebie job at a local school, cleaned and resealed a deck & ramp for a very small school district. The principal had bought the behr clear waterproofing, crappiest stuff I have ever used. Label claimed clean-up was easy with just soap & water. Total BS, the stuff was very thick and took alot of shaking & stirring just to get it to a usable consistency that would run thru a pump up sprayer and the tiny bit I got on the bldg turned orange upon contact and was very difficult to remove. I've used their paint just once, in a case where the bldg owner already had the behr paint on hand. Stuff was terrible, took 3 coats to get adequate coverage and this was just a flat white. How this junk ever got listed as a best buy by CP is beyond me. According to the school principal, that is why she got the Behr deck stuff, she saw it in a Consumer Report mag saying it was a best buy.


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## hmc

So I am new at painting, but since I am painting EVERY room in this house I have tried the following brands of paint:
Glidden.....crap, required a complete re-do
Behr....ok in a pinch but their oil based primer is horrible
BM....excellent coverage, low splatter
SW....love it, excellent everything


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## George Z

Before everyone blames every paint out there.
A good painter can make magic with average paint and a poor painter 
can do nothing right with top of the line paint.
I have painted thousands of homes over twenty years and so far 
I haven't come across too many bad paints these days.
Please compare apples to apples.
Third line Benjamin Moore is not as good as first line Glidden.
Top line Pittsburgh is better than third line S.W. etc.
Nine times out of ten, it is not the paint, it is the painter...
sorry for the cold truth.


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## slickshift

George Z said:


> I haven't come across too many bad paints these days.


I'm guessing you haven't tried the Behr then
It's truly horrible


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## George Z

slickshift said:


> I'm guessing you haven't tried the Behr then
> It's truly horrible


I have.
Not that great but workable.


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## MasterStrokes

George I agree with you in a sense. A professional painter can and will make the best out of any paint but I don’t understand why a professional would want to use or recommend anything but the best products. The ease of application, the quality of the cured finish, the eye appeal. All of these are what being a professional is all about. 

I’ve slung paint since 1979. I guess you’d have to understand the art of painting to get anything out of this but I truly love to paint on most days. Put me in front of a group of people and I’ll enchant them with my performance. Give me professional tools and paint, I’ll give you a superior finished surface at lightning speed. The tool and paint become an extension of you. Be the paint.  

I’m also a perfectionist. I varnish my brush handles. I soap up the heels before dipping them in paint. I clean a brush I’ve owned forever two, or three times a day to give it the respect a good brush deserves. My drop clothes stay in immaculate condition because I know the power of a good piece of straight edge cardboard. When I roll a ceiling the only drip I may get and I do say “may” is from the roller frame not my professional grade sheep skin nap. Give me a deep color to cut in against a difficult edge. I’ll put on my (Petzl E43P2 Tikka LED Headlamp) and have that edge as straight as an arrow. At the end of the day I’m clean, my tools are clean and the client is bedazzled. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had clients comment on my performance and I’m happy when it gets noticed. That’s what it’s all about for me. 

I see so many applicators today making their jobs miserable, wasting time and grumbling about having to throw paint on day after day. I look at their tools and paint labels. If they only took the time to invest in quality products they’d find work much more enjoyable. It doesn’t have to cost a fortune and the investment pays for itself in so many different ways. 

I’m sorry George but your opinions here thus far take me back to the years when I was simply an applicator that didn’t know the difference. 

I almost cringe at having to type these two words together. “Behr Paints” is atrocious, horrendous, over rated cheap junk sold to consumers by the devil himself. Opening the lid releases little paint demons that frolic in your head telling you to subscribe to consumer report. Come to the “Church of the Immaculate Artist” George.  Come to the light. Let us exorcise you of these familiar spirits and we’ll have a killer weenie roast afterwards. 

Mark


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## George Z

"I almost cringe at having to type these two words together. “Behr Paints” is atrocious, horrendous, over rated cheap junk sold to consumers by the devil himself. Opening the lid releases little paint demons that frolic in your head telling you to subscribe to consumer report. Come to the “Church of the Immaculate Artist” George.  Come to the light. Let us exorcise you of these familiar spirits and we’ll have a killer weenie roast afterwards."

How do you really feel about Behr paints?
We are a Benjamin Moore Painting and Decorating Services contractor (PDS) and we use B Moore for 90% of our jobs. No, I would never recommend or specify BEHR but sometimes it is there. I am in the business
of helping my company grow, not to get involved in brand wars.
A consumer buys the painting experience not always the paint job.
Your passion is admirable but most paint jobs are good or bad before any paint gallon is even opened. In many jobs prep-work is almost 75% of any job. Skip that and no paint will save you no matter how straight the lines are. 
Professionalism? No problem there. Hundreds of paint jobs in Toronto, many of the spectacular variety, zero callbacks or complains so far with any paint brand used. 
We let our workmanship do the talking, never had to use the paint as an excuse.


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## MasterStrokes

George Z said:


> How do you really feel about Behr paints?
> I would never recommend or specify BEHR but sometimes it is there.


Honestly I’ve had problems with Behr every time I’ve used it. It’s difficult to apply uniformly. You have to push the paint across the surface because it’s too thick. It dries too fast and leaves paint build up spots where the roller overlaps with the cut in. It dries flashy leaving dull and shiny spots when looking down the length of a wall. It smells like ammonia. I’ve seen the junk sag when applied heavily. It has virtually zero leveling power on horizontal surfaces. 

I go above and beyond with my prep work. I certainly don’t want to add a junktacular product after all that work. Go to Bob Vilas site and type in (Behr Paint Problem) Look at all those complaints. People are actually returning it and getting refunds if they complain to higher powers. I’d rather inform a client of its potential problems and the proper way to get a refund instead of taking a chance with a product known to cause problems. I’m a painter. I’m paid to know something about paint too.  

I’m not a contractor anymore. I’m employed by a decorator and run the painting department for the company. She has 5 other decorators in the company and they all know what to look for in the finish appearance. If I used Behr paints I know they’d see a few of the problems I mentioned above. I guess you’ve had luck with the overall appearance and it applied well for you. That’s incredible!


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## Paintguy26

Im not into "brand wars", but I have used Behr paint and I think it will get the job done. But if your looking for a good quality, less problematic paintjob you should really consider Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore products. Yes, the price is ridiculous, but I assure you....you wont be dissapointed. P.S...some of these responses should be disreguarded...opinions are like***holes- most stink


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## slickshift

Paintguy26 said:


> P.S...some of these responses should be disreguarded...


...why?


Paintguy26 said:


> ...opinions are like***holes- most stink


Well, now, that's your opinion isn't it
 




Personally and professionally, I enjoy hearing and reading other professional and DIY opinion's
They don't have to agree with mine
I think it's good to have a free-flow of ideas, _even_ contrary ones

I don't think any opinion posted here should be disregarded
Even yours paintguy
lol

Which posts do you feel should be disregarded and why?


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## 747

When i was growing up we had a paint store in town that sold dutch boy i have never heard you guys say anything about it. I assuming it must not be crap like behrs or you guys would have already trashed it. But then on the other hand i'm assuming its not as good as sw or Bm.


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## Doug Crf

I have a question about paint? I just textured my living room ceiling and primed it with Kilz 2 and then painted it with behr flat white ceiling paint.I did two bed rooms before I did the living room.
The bed rooms turned out pretty good but this living room did not turn out so good.
I can see shadows from the joist's which I am sure I just have to put up with but there are areas where it looks like the paint just did not cover good.
The question I have is what paint should I use? And is there any thing That would help hide the shadows.
Does BM have a good ceiling paint and would it hurt to just go ahead and just paint right over the behr paint?
Thanks Doug


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## J187

I'm getting ready to paint, so I've asked a couple friends who are pros what they recommend. To answer your question, o far, I've heard the following

Behr = garbage
Benjamin Moore = Good quality
California = a little better than BM
Sherwin = far and away the best of the recommendations I've heard. 

Again, I have not used any yet.


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## 747

Its zineers for primer something like bulls eye 123 and then benjamin moore or sherwin williams for paint. This is what all the bigs boys(painter contractors at the other forum like hands down.)


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## 747

To answer the original question. The only people who like behr is consumer report magazine.


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## diydaisy

*painting with Behr*

Behr works great on textured walls. The paint is usually just the right thickness.


http://http://lildaisy.1free.hop.clickbank.net


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## mdlbldrmatt135

I have yet to have a problem with the BEHR paint..... the only problem i did have is when a buddy was painting while i was away and used a Flat White instead of a Primer.... can you say PEEL???????


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## strafton

I've used Behr since the big box came to town about five years ago. I've not used the exterior but I have used the interior on 5-6 jobs and have been very happy with the results. It's thicker, so spraying may not be so hot, then again I wouldn't know because I don't spray, but I can say it rolls nicely and brushes equally as well. I think it's a better deal for the customer and the DIY because it covers well and the price is right. I've used SW paints that I thought was garbage-no experience with BM.


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## slickshift

strafton said:


> ...I've used SW paints that I thought was garbage...


Which ones and why?


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## DaveH

I have used :
Ben Moore..Good Paint
MAB...Good Paint
But....I like Behr. It has always covered for me in no more than two coats. I had to paint a bathroom once with 4 coats to get an off white to cover an off white with SW. I know alot of pros who like SW. I believe all manufacturers make decent paint. Just not every type they make. It also depends on what base you are using. Typically if it starts with a pastel base it will cover better because it has more titanium dioxide (white) in it. The medium and deep bases have very little in them other than colorant added, and sometimes the colorants themselves aren't good at covering.


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## lxdollarsxl

Behr paint - i must agree with slick, i find their products horrible, personally i use Porter Paints, but i dont know if they are available all over the country? Every used them slick?


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## slickshift

lxdollarsxl said:


> Every used them slick?


No I haven't
I don't see Porter around here


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## WallyB

I'm not a professional painter, but I've painted all rooms in two houses with Behr and I like it. I've only used their interior flat enamel, but it works great for me, dries hard, and is easy to clean. 
I've not only painted these houses, but lived in them, too. The Behr paint has really been impressive 6 months down the road when you're scrubbing off scuff marks.
I used BM in a previous house and liked it, but got a lot of splatter I don't get with Behr. My builders of both those houses used SW, but I'm sure it was their cheapest grade, so I won't develop an opinion of the company based on that junk. 
I doubt Behr would spray well as it's thick, but that doesn't matter to me.​


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## strafton

slickshift said:


> Which ones and why?



I used Promar 200 found it to be very weak in the coverage department. The windows in my house had condensation all over them from all of the water in the paint. Granted, it's not their top-of-the-line, but still, for the price of that gallon I could have used Behr with better coverage and less cost (and I'll bet less mositure, but that's just a guess). 

Also recently used a SW "Classic" or some such name in a semi-gloss enamel (customer bought the paint-I told them to get the SuperPaint) and I could have put four coats on cabinets. I cleaned, degreased, lightly sanded, and primed with Glidden's "Gripper" primer and the stained wood was still streaky. I also didn't like that paint because it set up way too fast-very difficult to work with. 

I've since painted cabinets, wainscoting, walls and trim with Behr and had excellent results. I find nothing wrong with it and will continue to use it. 

The local hardware store is selling Ben Moore for $35/gallon-I'll bet SW is pretty close to that as well. To me, it's way overpriced for what you get. 

Best,
Steve


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## slickshift

strafton said:


> I used Promar 200 etc...


Thanks for the response Steve
I appreciate hearing from you

As I understand it, those aren't SWP's premium paints
I have used mostly Ben Moore, and have only used the SWP premium lines
BM also has lessor lines which I try not to use
In their case the MooreCraft ("contractor" grade) is not great, but still better than Behr


strafton said:


> The local hardware store is selling Ben Moore for $35/gallon-I'll bet SW is pretty close to that as well. To me, it's way overpriced for what you get.


The premium BM or SWP should run 35-45 a gallon
Overpriced would be relative

For example:
BM's AquaVelvet
I know exactly what it will do, and what it won't do
I know exactly what it will look like, and how it will spread in any/all situations, or what I need to do to it to make it do what I want to do
I know how far I can push it, and when to lay back
I can spread it 20% to 50% faster than inferior products, and it will look better doing so
Often an inferior product can take even more time...and coats, to make it look good
The coverage is _never _as good on the cheaper products-it always takes more product
As my time is the most expensive part of any project, you may be able to see how a more expensive gallon that saves me time actually costs me, and my customers, less rather than more in the long run

For those that say "Yeah but you're a pro, that's different"
I'd like to say as a DIYer, do not undervalue your most valuable asset, your time
If it's buying 3 $20 gallons and taking all Saturday and Sunday to paint a room, wouldn't it be better to buy one (or even two) $35 gallon(s) and have it done in one day?


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## SgtBaldy

MasterStrokes said:


> I’m also a perfectionist. I varnish my brush handles. I soap up the heels before dipping them in paint. I clean a brush I’ve owned forever two, or three times a day to give it the respect a good brush deserves.
> Mark


Makes me remember a guy I use to work with for a restoration contractor who felt the best way to store his brushes was in a bucket of spirits or water. They looked like a Salvador Dali sculpture when he pulled them out.lol

As far as Behr paints, I have used them on interior jobs, not the best paint but you can make it work just fine. The main reason I don't use behr is because I have to go into home depot and wait behind 20 old ladies who have 500 questions and then hope the nitwit mixing my paint gets my order right. "I want 5 gallons of your best interior acrylic satin product" , " Uh, do you want that in oil or water base".


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## AtlanticWBConst.

GC with our own painting division:

What we use:

1.) Sherwin Williams
2.) Ben Moore

* Avoid like the plague: Behr. (unless you like painting several extra coats to cover a surface)

- Even our painters hate the brand - 

say the brand name in front of them ; You should see the faces they make, like they swallowed a bad oyster..... :huh:


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## queseyo2

*Behr Paint & Home Depot -- Never Again*

Behr paint is inferior as evidenced by the visible roller strokes that remained on the 7 doors I painted using Behr paint. The paint's viscosity was very thick and was like rolling on Elmer's glue--this may account for the paint's inability to blend the roller strokes into a final, smooth appearance. The cost of the paint is minor compared to the time and frustration needed to correct the results of the product. 

After resanding each of the doors, I repainted the doors using a similar
Benjamin Moore product, and the final result was perfect using just a
single coat.

After buying the Behr paint, I attempted to get a refund from Home Depot, but their policy does not allow refunds on paints even if the product is as substandard.


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## boman47k

*Behr*

During the summer a guy I was working with and I stained a deck with some Behr deck stain. The elderly lady requested it as it was what was first put on it. I don't know how long the stain had been on the deck, but it did not look all that bad, no peeling, cracking, etc, just like some of it had just worn away or been washed away by the elements. Overall was in fairly good shape. We stained with one coat. I thought the stain was very good. Since i have been coming top these forums, I have heard a lot of (mostly) bad reveiws on Behr products. 
When we moved back to our house after renting it out for a couple of years, we repainted the lr. This was about two years ago. I had a few small plces to mud. Instead of using primer like I normally would have done, I used the paint as a primer on these places. They never did cover without showing. I also have shiny places where I cut in. Now it may be me, but I have never had this much problem with paint. It actually seemed to cover good as I was using it, but as time goes on it seems it gets worse. It is almost like defects are time delayed. Like I said, Ihave read reveiws on the forums on Behr. A few days ago, I asked my wife what kind of paint it was we used on the lr. She said she did not know, but she had gotten it at HDand it cost about $25. I said, "was it Behr?"

Her response was, " Yeah, thats it." Never agin for this ol' boy! I'll pay the difference. I don't need all that flashing! Maybe I could learn to use it but at whose expense?


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## Hamilton

athanman said:


> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.


I'll let you know by the end of next week, we'll be using it for the first time ever...the customer insisted on it. :furious: I felt like putting a bag over my head when I went to the Devil to buy it.

And that stuff ain't cheap, cost me near the same as my discount on premium grade Dunn-Edwards. :furious:


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## Hamilton

We got our customer's eight doors sprayed today and didn't notice anything "bad" about Behr paint. Cleaned up the same, sprayed the same, looked the same wet or dry... 

I dunno........seems ok.

But what I don't get is, with all the great colors on the earth how come so many people pick white. :furious: I'm sick of white. :furious: I'm gonna start charging more if they want white. :thumbsup:


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## joewho

strafton said:


> I used Promar 200 found it to be very weak in the coverage department. The windows in my house had condensation all over them from all of the water in the paint. Granted, it's not their top-of-the-line, but still, for the price of that gallon I could have used Behr with better coverage and less cost (and I'll bet less mositure, but that's just a guess).
> 
> Also recently used a SW "Classic" or some such name in a semi-gloss enamel (customer bought the paint-I told them to get the SuperPaint) and I could have put four coats on cabinets. I cleaned, degreased, lightly sanded, and primed with Glidden's "Gripper" primer and the stained wood was still streaky. I also didn't like that paint because it set up way too fast-very difficult to work with.
> 
> I've since painted cabinets, wainscoting, walls and trim with Behr and had excellent results. I find nothing wrong with it and will continue to use it.
> 
> The local hardware store is selling Ben Moore for $35/gallon-I'll bet SW is pretty close to that as well. To me, it's way overpriced for what you get.
> 
> Best,
> Steve


The condensation is from the moisture in the paint evaporating near the closed window. That will happen with any paint.
I've used pro mar 200 for many years and it's one of the best for the cost you can get. It covers very well. There is no comparison between 200 and behr. 200 is the same as superpaint without the 25 yr. warranty.


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## kcrossley2

MasterStrokes said:


> Honestly I’ve had problems with Behr every time I’ve used it. It’s difficult to apply uniformly. You have to push the paint across the surface because it’s too thick. It dries too fast and leaves paint build up spots where the roller overlaps with the cut in. It dries flashy leaving dull and shiny spots when looking down the length of a wall. It smells like ammonia. I’ve seen the junk sag when applied heavily. It has virtually zero leveling power on horizontal surfaces.


As a consumer, I too got caught up in the Consumer Reports hype and have used Behr for most of my existing home. I totally agree with every comment you've made above. Quite frankly, before reading this thread I thought that most of these problems were user errors. I'm not a professional painter by trade, but I am relieved to see that the problems I experienced weren't entirely my fault. 

BTW, Sherwin Williams paints are a lot better IMHO.


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## donb1959

I cant think of one good quality BHer has


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## kurokami

*No alarming issues with Behr here!!*

I used Behr paint for the first time a month ago. I had no problems with it whatsoever. There was very minimal fumes, the consistancy was constant( used the same gallon over a week ), there was even coverage and it dried fairly quickly. I plan on using it in the other rooms of my home.


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## AlbrightPM

Coming from a guy that has applied nearly 100 gallons of paint in 2006, I will say that you are better off using the SW ProMar line over the Behr brand. The ProMar 200 is basically the same price as the Behr from HD. It applies easier and can be touched up.

Behr is okay for a HO, but its difficult to apply. YMMV.

steve


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## JKL

I have to put in a plug for Benjamin Moore's new Aura line-it ROCKS! Silky, excellent cover, overall fantastico. You'll pay a couple extra bucks but it's worth every penny. Their Affinity line also has gorgeous colors. I'll never go back...


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## troubleseeker

athanman said:


> I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints.
> 
> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.
> 
> So if you have any reviews please share them.


Ditto all the negatives about Behr. It never covered the first time I tried it 20 years ago, and it is obviously no better yet, having used it infrequently when supplied by the homeowner.

We use Benjamin Moore alsmot exclusively, with a little Sherwin Williams from time to time. You will not be disappointed by either.Once you take ten strokes of the roller with a quality paint, you will kick yourself in the butt for having frustrated yourself with other trash.:whistling2:


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## kurokami

*OHHHHHH what have i done??!!*

:furious: Ok i take back my comment on behr paints. While it was true the first time i used behr paints...no problems whatsoever....i have just endured the worst experience with their kitchen and bath paint.
It was sooo thick it made it extremely hard to spread without layering it on and inch thick and the smell was something out of this world. I properly cleaned and primed all the surfaces and some areas still needed 3 coats to cover the surfaces properly.
Lesson learned the hard way i guess. Never again will that stuff be brought into my house.


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## sweetsue777

Where can you get Benjamin Moore paints? Is it a store like SW?


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## slickshift

sweetsue777 said:


> Where can you get Benjamin Moore paints? Is it a store like SW?


Benjamin Moore Paints are sold at independent paint shops and small chains, rather than company owned shops like Sherwin Williams

Sometimes you'll even find it in hardware stores, but most often it'll be a paint and possibly wallcovering and possibly flooring store

So, sometimes it's easy to drive right by a place that sells it and not even know

The best place to find a local dealer would probably be the Dealer Locater on the website

main page:
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/

USA store locater page:
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmap/mpin.aspx

Canada store locater page (English):
http://www.benjaminmoore.ca/locator/PrxInput.aspx


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## slickshift

kurokami said:


> ...it was true the first time i used behr paints...no problems whatsoever...


Sorry you had problems this time
But it is true that many can have success with a project or two, or even three, using Behr
That's one of the reasons it's tough to educate people about it
"It worked just fine for me"

A failure rate of 5%, or 20%, or 50%, or even higher, and the average DIY painter might never actually run into a problem

Even a horrible paint might work well for a few specific projects

One "could" use Behr and not run into any of the issues discussed here
But that "could" is just not good enough

Thanks for the update though, as unhappy as it is, maybe it will help someone avoid such a problem


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## rjordan392

I won't use Behr either and I had the same problem with their solid deck stains.


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## xfountaingrl

I had a quick question to everyone who has a negative stigma about behr paints. I am going to be painting my kitchen and bedroom this week and have picked out behr colors.... reading some of this makes me want to change to a different brand. Is Behr really that bad?


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## Brik

yes, its BAD. Take your color chips to a benjamin moore dealer. They might have a cross reference chart or you can simply match the homecheapo behr chip the the Benjamin Moore chip. Also, you will likely get good advice from the salesperson with questions you may have.


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## xfountaingrl

Brik said:


> yes, its BAD. Take your color chips to a benjamin moore dealer. They might have a cross reference chart or you can simply match the homecheapo behr chip the the Benjamin Moore chip. Also, you will likely get good advice from the salesperson with questions you may have.


 

Thanks for the advice! Ive actually used Ben Moore paints before and really liked them. I'll have to do that!


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## shapeshifter

Don't know if you have a Lowe's in your area, but they can cross match colors on the computer and custom make the paint. I did this last week and was happy with the result.


----------



## Brik

Yea the benjamin moore dealer will be able to do this too. I find that doing it by eye, chip to chip, actually works better!


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## xfountaingrl

Thanks everyone, you all helped me make my decision. I actually started looking online at Ben Moore colors, and I found a better color for my bedroom... now its just the kitchen, but I can bring in my chip for that.. woohoo! thanks! :thumbup:


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## chuckfarley

:thumbsup: Big ups, arribes grandes and muchas gracias to all you pros out there! I was about to make a monumental mistake in painting my already stained cedar sided house. The folks at Home Depot were all too ready to sell me a couple of 5 gallon buckets of Behr paint (it's ok to paint over stain, they assured me) and away I would have ignorantly gone... Fortunately I did a little internet research and happened upon this thread and I can't tell you what a headache you guys have saved me. Not to mention the scowl of an angry wife who would want to know why the house looked like crap and was covered in peeling paint. 
I immediately went to my nearest SW dealer and got the straight scoop. I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, but getting advice from those that are has been priceless... thanks again!


----------



## J187

chuckfarley said:


> .... a couple of 5 gallon buckets of Behr paint....


Should cover a 5 sq ft area w/ the number of coats that would be needed :biggrin:


----------



## slickshift

chuckfarley said:


> ... a couple of 5 gallon buckets of Behr paint...





J187 said:


> Should cover a 5 sq ft area w/ the number of coats that would be needed :biggrin:


 'bout right
:wink:


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## kathypullin

I have painted a dining room, living room, and kitchen, with Laura Ashley paint (which I think is a Lowe’s brand). One bedroom, hallway, and all moldings with Behr. A bathroom with Dutch Boy, and another bedroom with American Standard (Another Lowe's brand). 

The Dutch Boy was awful, I painted four coats, and still need to paint one more (at least) to get it right. The pigment in the Dutch Boy paint wouldn’t stay mixed; it was an unbelievable pain to use. The Lowe’s paint wasn’t too bad, I used two fairly dark colors in one room, the gold color took three coats, but the rust took only two. (This didn’t make sense to me, as I though reds normally take three, due to the pigment) All of the Laura Ashley painting was easy, the paint was light yellow, and I didn’t need more then two coats to finish the job.

The Behr paint was frustrating to use. I picked a medium green color for one of the bedrooms and I thought it would never get done. I think I used three coats at least, but the frustrating part was that it never seemed to completely dry, even a month later the color would rub off if I tried to clean the wall. I also noticed that after four months, the color started fading. As for the other rooms, I used a lighter color of green, and while the application was better, just two coats, the fading was also an issue. 

Right now I am in the middle of painting crown molding with Behr semi-gloss paint, and it is going very badly, I painted two coats on the molding before I installed it, with the assumption that the final coat would happen when the molding was up on the wall. I did it this way to ensure that after all of the nail holes were filled and caulking was complete the last coat would be uniform. If I could ever get to that last coat - the paint simply will not consistently cover the molding, I am on my fourth coat, and I’m nowhere near done. 

I think Behr works ok with matte paint that is fairly light colored, but semi-gloss paint, and/or medium to deep colors is where Behr fails to meet the bar on quality. 

My theory, which I’m totally making up, is that light, matte, colors are not a challenge for most paint manufactures, so a lower quality base and cheap pigments aren’t going to expose their poor standards. It’s when the customer wants a medium to dark color, that the quality – or lack of quality – will show. What makes me think my made up theory might be on track, is the number of complaints on the web that have to do with painting using a medium to dark color. On this thread there are complaints about reds, a medium green, blue, etc. Makes me wonder what colors Consumer Reports used in their testing.


----------



## firsthomegal

*Thank You!*

I was just about to go to Home Depot and buy 10 gallons of Behr exterior paint. Although I have a lot of prep work to do on the exterior before painting, Home Depot has a sale on Behr which expires tomorrow. Fortunately, I decided to do some research.....and came across this thread.

I had my front porch screened in last fall and painted the new construction with Behr paints. It was fairly cool, at the low end of the recommended painting temperature, while I was working on the porch. Being completely inexperienced with painting, I thought the thick, gooeyness of the paint was because of the temperature. I used a tinted primer and still needed two coats (I chose a fairly dark color). It was all trim work and took forever.

(Now I am concerned about the color fading. The porch is on the north and doesn't get a lot of light, but the west side gets pretty baked in the afternoon.)

Do folks also recommend Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams as best EXTERIOR paints?

THANK YOU for saving me from messing up my big paint job! It's going to take me a long time to paint my house, and I would have wept serious tears if I had found this out AFTER I painted.


----------



## slickshift

firsthomegal said:


> Do folks also recommend Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams as best EXTERIOR paints?


Ben Moore and Sherwin Williams, along with Pittsburgh Paints, have some of the best premium lines of exterior paints, and are well known enough National Brands that one, two or all should be available just about anywhere in the United States and Canada

Keep in mind, those _Brands_ also make cheap paints
The premium lines are the best they offer, and well worth the extra money
And also there are some great Regional Brands out there
Obviously we can't really recommend those, as we don't know where they are available, and don't get to try many unless they are available where we are, so generally you won't see them mentioned here


----------



## firsthomegal

I checked out the Pittsburgh Paints store in town. Unfortunately, the woman working didn't know ANYTHING. When I asked her about power washers and cleaners, she just blinked and looked confused. Strange for a company with such a strong reputation.

So I checked out a Ben Moore dealer. Had answers to all but one of my questions (to which he actually referred me to Home Depot:no and was very helpful. He quoted 10 gallons of his top line at $36 a gallon (Pittsburgh was $46). I think I'll go Ben Moore (SW store is too far away).

Thanks for pointing me the right direction.


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## HyTyde

*Narrow Judgement About Behr?*

It appears that most of the posters in this thread who hate Behr are paint contractors and their gripes are, mostly, that Behr is hard to apply.

My questions to them are: 
1 - Which grade of Behr are you using? The cheap stuff or the good stuff?
2 - How does the paint hold up after application?

As contractors, I'm sure you need something easy to apply, quick to cover and inexpensive to buy. That's not a criticism. I'd want that, too, if I made my living painting.

As a consumer, though, I'm more interested in how long my paint is going to retain its color and how long will it remain bonded and smooth. I want a paint that can be washed and can take a beating. I want a paint that I can depend upon after the contractor has gone to his next job. I want a paint that will last for many years, not just until next summer.

Is there anyone out there who can answer these questions?


----------



## slickshift

HyTyde said:


> Is there anyone out there who can answer these questions?


Yes
First off, welcome to the forums
Now. on to the questions:


HyTyde said:


> It appears that most of the posters in this thread who hate Behr are paint contractors and their gripes are, mostly, that Behr is hard to apply.


Ehhh....that's one of many gripes
It is not the biggest, no



HyTyde said:


> My questions to them are:
> 1 - Which grade of Behr are you using? The cheap stuff or the good stuff?


I'm sorry, you'll have to explain that one for me
I didn't know Behr had a good line and a cheap line
Which it which?


HyTyde said:


> 2 - How does the paint hold up after application?


Really, really badly
It has a very high failure rate, especially under less than perfect conditions
Please keep in mind, even a 30% failure rate means 70% didn't
Those 70% may have been perfectly satisfied
But is it worth the risk?


HyTyde said:


> As contractors, I'm sure you need something easy to apply, quick to cover and inexpensive to buy.


Essentially, yeah
The quicker I can do a quality job with the least amount of expense, the better I can serve my customers

Behr does none of the above
It's not quick to apply, it covers horribly, and it takes so many more coats, it's not inexpensive to buy


HyTyde said:


> As a consumer, though, I'm more interested in how long my paint is going to retain its color and how long will it remain bonded and smooth.


...yes, those are extremely important factors to a quality painting contractor
Those are very high on my list of requirements
Again, Behr falls far short of the mark to be considered even average in those depts.


HyTyde said:


> I want a paint that can be washed and can take a beating. I want a paint that I can depend upon after the contractor has gone to his next job. I want a paint that will last for many years, not just until next summer.


Exactly
Which is why I don't use or recommend Behr
It can't take regular use, never mind abuse or a beating
It's simply not that good

For some reason you seem to think your objectives as a DIY painter contradict the goals of a professional painter
They don't
All the things you mention are important to me as a professional

Granted, there are many hacks out there, who don't care if the paint job " last(s) for many years, .... just until next summer"
Honestly, many of them use Behr
So I'm not really sure where you are coming from

Truly, there is no difference between a pros goals and a DIYers goals
Even the "time is money" thing we contractor are stuck on
True for us? yes, very!
True for DIYers?
Well, would you rather spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday painting the bathroom, or be done by 1:30 on Saturday, and have the rest of the weekend to do as you wish?


----------



## rjordan392

Well Said.
As a former user of Behr solid stain and DIY, I won't ever buy any of their products again.


----------



## HyTyde

Thanks for the response.

OK. My bad. I didn't notice that all of Behr's exterior paint is Premium Plus, with the price differences being for the sheen only.

I'm sorry if I offended you by talking about pro's interest in ease and speed of the job, but I think I said that wasn't a criticism.

You gotta admit that the Behr literature, along with the high CR rating and a neighbor who is happy with Behr is pretty strong impetus for me to buy Behr. The talk about the "Nano technology" in their paint, which I've read a little about in the past, and how that guards against mold and mildew, etc. is very convincing. However, in the end, I want the best paint that I can buy and there are a lot of opinions out there about which is the very best.

So, here's the question for you, Mr. Shift:
With no consideration for price, and for a house in Upstate South Carolina where humidity is not as high as in the lowlands, but where it gets into the 60 to 70% range in the summer, and on a house that faces north with big oak trees in the back casting shadows on the rear of the house, and for white trim only, what paint would you apply? And, to make it even more precise, pretend that it is YOUR home.

I've read all of your posts and your opinion will carry a lot of credibility with me and I appreciate your willingness to share your opinion with us neophytes.


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## slickshift

It is hard to argue against a giant marketing steamroller with seemingly unlimited funds
I can only say that they didn't become so rich by volume alone, the products they sell suffer
They are not interested in providing quality tools and products to consumers
They are interested in providing "good enough most of the time for occasional consumers that don't know the difference" tools and products
They are, however, a brilliantly marketed company, worthy of respect and study for their strategy

I can understand there are plenty of satisfied customers of Behr out there
Like I said, even a horrible 30% failure rate means 70% went fine

It is funny though, I've painted over perfectly fine Behr paint with the same color Impervo, and even the Homeowner who was perfectly happy with the Behr says "I can tell the difference from across the room"

For an Exterior as you described, I would have no problem using the Ben Moore Moor-Glow/Gloss line, or the Pittsburgh Manor Hall line
Even on my own home

But, however, when I did paint my home last year, with all the choices I had, I used Sherwin Williams Duration
I love the way it works, sticks, stays, remains colorful (or remains white), repels dirt, cleans up, and protects...even on (or especially on) less than perfect surfaces)

Some are close or almost as good or just fine, great even
But if I had my druthers, it'd be Duration for exterior trim pretty much every time


----------



## firsthomegal

Another neophyte would love a recommendation on which Ben Moore line you would use for the body of a home. I haven't bought yet, but will on Monday. It's wood siding, North Dakota summers (85-95 degrees, lots of wind, and moderate humidity) and North Dakota winters (sub zero, lots of wind). Home takes quite a beating from the sun on three sides.

(Sherwin dealer is not in my area.)


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## slickshift

firsthomegal said:


> I haven't bought yet, but will on Monday.


Congratulations!



firsthomegal said:


> which Ben Moore line you would use for the body of a home.
> It's wood siding,


Ben Moore's MoorGlo Soft Gloss (Blue label)
Ben Moore has the unfortunate habit of naming their different sheens different names so they sound like different lines, but if you want something flatter, the same line in flat would be MoorLife (green label), and low luster is MoorGard (red label)

I'd go with the Soft Gloss though, unless you really want flat
It's not real shiny...like a satin or "Soft Gloss" as they say
I'd say 95%+ do




firsthomegal said:


> North Dakota summers (85-95 degrees, lots of wind, and moderate humidity) and North Dakota winters (sub zero, lots of wind). Home takes quite a beating from the sun on three sides.


I spent some time in Flasher
Big sky out there...
I remember watching a huge thunderstorm roll by miles away
Turned on the news, they said it was in South Dakota damaging crops
Now Flasher is south, but still, that's a long way to see a thunderstorm roll by


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## HyTyde

Thanks again, Slick.
Based upon your recommendation, I decided to use SW Duration semi-gloss exterior to paint the trim on my house. BUT ..... I called the local Sherwin Williams store and asked about two five gallon kits. The salesman said "I'll give you contractor price, which is a great deal." I thanked him and asked "How much is that?" He replied "only $50 per gallon."
Once I caught my breath, I told him I'd check back with him.
Does that sound like a fair price to you?
The Pittsburg dealer told me he'd sell me five gallon kits of Manor Hall for $165. I haven't called Ben Moore, yet.
So, if you believe the Duration is worth $50 a gallon, I'll sacrifice a few six packs this month and buy it. Whattaya think?


----------



## Hamilton

Yikes! I thought paint prices in "enviro-whacko" California were horrific...


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## slickshift

Well...my first thought is that is not really the "contractor" price
But I suppose it could be
SW doesn't have national pricing, and prices can vary and they are very much "what the market will bear" in their pricing

Around here they are expensive (non-discount around 50) compared to Manor Hall or Moorglo
I've had other contractors from other parts of the country say it's the other way around

Anyway...$50 to $33..huh?
Hmmm....

1) What kind of shape is the are in?
Scraped? maybe needs some primer? Lots of peel? No peel? Just old and faded? Just needs a color change?

2)Are you planning on doing two coats?


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## HyTyde

Just old and faded. No peeling or chipping. Has been pressure washed. White window frames, doors, porch rails, etc. No boxing. Will two coat if one doesn't seem to cover.


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## slickshift

Hmmm...with the Duration you'll only need one coat
The Manor Hall you _might_ be OK with one coat


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## HyTyde

Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## 747

firsthomegal said:


> I was just about to go to Home Depot and buy 10 gallons of Behr exterior paint. Although I have a lot of prep work to do on the exterior before painting, Home Depot has a sale on Behr which expires tomorrow. Fortunately, I decided to do some research.....and came across this thread.
> 
> I had my front porch screened in last fall and painted the new construction with Behr paints. It was fairly cool, at the low end of the recommended painting temperature, while I was working on the porch. Being completely inexperienced with painting, I thought the thick, gooeyness of the paint was because of the temperature. I used a tinted primer and still needed two coats (I chose a fairly dark color). It was all trim work and took forever.
> 
> (Now I am concerned about the color fading. The porch is on the north and doesn't get a lot of light, but the west side gets pretty baked in the afternoon.)
> 
> Do folks also recommend Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams as best EXTERIOR paints?
> 
> THANK YOU for saving me from messing up my big paint job! It's going to take me a long time to paint my house, and I would have wept serious tears if I had found this out AFTER I painted.



I like oil base on a exterior. To answer your question i consider this company to make the best oilbase exterior paint and also excellent water base exterior paints.

http://www.oldecenturycolors.com/oilbase.htm

Its not cheap like 45 a gallon.


----------



## TradesProfessional Inc.

*Behr Pains*



athanman said:


> I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints.
> 
> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.
> 
> So if you have any reviews please share them.


Behr is the most labor intensive paint on the market. I personally & professionally prefer Valspar featured at Lowe's, it's equal in color clairity and far more user friendly.


----------



## zorro84

I have had many years of experience with many different brands of paint. From SW, Ben Moore, Dunn-Edwards, etc. You could buy the most expensive brand of paint, but if you are going to use cheap roller covers and brushes, you should just give up while you still ahead.

Always spend the extra dollar on Purdy brushes and sheepskin roller covers. If you take care of them, they will last you a long time. 

With regards to paint, use what you are comfortable with. I love Glidden paint out of Home Depot, but better yet, Ralph Lauren paint. Even in colors that I would not think would cover in one coat in RL, did. . . (though 2 thin coats are always better than one thick coat). RL has a GREAT color pallet and levels out really nice on the walls. Another added benefit is they have a primer (RL Deeptone Primer) that can be tinted to any color from any company. So if you plan on doing a accent wall, make a trip to The Home Depot and pick up a gallon. One of the reps for the company turned me on to it and no other company in the industry makes a primer like this. It will give you that red accent wall with one coat primer and one coat of paint!!!! WOW, I was blown away. I did 7 coats the last time I painted a red. RL paint is the was to go.

The RL rep showed me some test results from lab in Florida (Marshall Labs) and it beat out SW duration, Ben Moore, and a bunch of other at $40-$50 a gallon and it only cost me $27!!!!!! Great stuff.


----------



## zorro84

Oh, I forgot, Behr paint stinks. It is tooooooo thick, has to high of an odor in the higher sheens, donesn't touch up for crap, because it is so thick it doesn't flow and level out, it blocks when I spray new doors. I wouldn't recommend it to any one. I would buy Glidden's top of the time for $3 to $4 bucks cheaper any day of the week. The whole Consumer reports thing is a hoax if you ask me.


----------



## cambie

zorro84 said:


> I have had many years of experience with many different brands of paint. From SW, Ben Moore, Dunn-Edwards, etc. You could buy the most expensive brand of paint, but if you are going to use cheap roller covers and brushes, you should just give up while you still ahead.
> 
> Always spend the extra dollar on Purdy brushes and sheepskin roller covers. If you take care of them, they will last you a long time.
> 
> With regards to paint, use what you are comfortable with. I love Glidden paint out of Home Depot, but better yet, Ralph Lauren paint. Even in colors that I would not think would cover in one coat in RL, did. . . (though 2 thin coats are always better than one thick coat). RL has a GREAT color pallet and levels out really nice on the walls. Another added benefit is they have a primer (RL Deeptone Primer) that can be tinted to any color from any company. So if you plan on doing a accent wall, make a trip to The Home Depot and pick up a gallon. One of the reps for the company turned me on to it and no other company in the industry makes a primer like this. It will give you that red accent wall with one coat primer and one coat of paint!!!! WOW, I was blown away. I did 7 coats the last time I painted a red. RL paint is the was to go.
> 
> The RL rep showed me some test results from lab in Florida (Marshall Labs) and it beat out SW duration, Ben Moore, and a bunch of other at $40-$50 a gallon and it only cost me $27!!!!!! Great stuff.


No kidding? I've had the exact opposite opinion of Ralph Lauren paints.


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## fierysun

zorro84 said:


> I have had many years of experience with many different brands of paint. From SW, Ben Moore, Dunn-Edwards, etc. You could buy the most expensive brand of paint, but if you are going to use cheap roller covers and brushes, you should just give up while you still ahead.
> 
> Always spend the extra dollar on Purdy brushes and sheepskin roller covers. If you take care of them, they will last you a long time.
> 
> With regards to paint, use what you are comfortable with. I love Glidden paint out of Home Depot, but better yet, Ralph Lauren paint. Even in colors that I would not think would cover in one coat in RL, did. . . (though 2 thin coats are always better than one thick coat). RL has a GREAT color pallet and levels out really nice on the walls. Another added benefit is they have a primer (RL Deeptone Primer) that can be tinted to any color from any company. So if you plan on doing a accent wall, make a trip to The Home Depot and pick up a gallon. One of the reps for the company turned me on to it and no other company in the industry makes a primer like this. It will give you that red accent wall with one coat primer and one coat of paint!!!! WOW, I was blown away. I did 7 coats the last time I painted a red. RL paint is the was to go.
> 
> The RL rep showed me some test results from lab in Florida (Marshall Labs) and it beat out SW duration, Ben Moore, and a bunch of other at $40-$50 a gallon and it only cost me $27!!!!!! Great stuff.


I've used Behr once. I was truly not happy with its ability to coat. Since then I switched to RL when possible.


----------



## RedSIinPA

I'd just like to chime in here that I agree, Behr has been a disappointment. I did my entire interior of my last house using Behr, sans ONE room that my wife wanted in a particular shade of gray. She bought MAB paint for that (local company, maybe, to Phila area.) Anyways, the coverage of that paint just simply blew me away.

Since then I've steered away from Behr except for their whites (trim, ceiling). I recently redid my kitchen which had semi-gloss walls. I used a gray Glidden primer, followed by 1 (yes 1) coat of gray, very similar in color, satin latex made by Sherwin Williams. I was very impressed. My lesson is hereby learned: spend thy money on good paint. The results are worth it and the experience is far more enjoyable.


----------



## RedSIinPA

Oh, one other thing...Behr stains were even worse. Waste of time and money redoing my deck on the last house. I was so let down 1 year after all that work, I swear to never own a deck again. I'm all for the paved patio now.


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## zorro84

cambie said:


> No kidding? I've had the exact opposite opinion of Ralph Lauren paints.


 
When I talk to other people in home depot or the associates, they would say the same thing I do all the time. Most people have no idea how to paint. I would go as far to say that RL paint is "idiot proof" paint. The coverage is some of the best I have used. Even in some of the colors, a bright blue, covered in one coat. Even though I will always put two just for the protection and washability of the paint. For only $25 to $30 a gallon, it is WELL worth the money spend. On that note, when a customer goes into a Sherwin Williams store and buys a gallon of paint, Duration for $48 to $50+ (SW's top-of-the-line), you can bet that a contractor is only maybe paying $30-$32 a gallon if that. When the Glidden Rep showed me all the test results for RL paint and it smoked SW Duration, I was sold. Next time, give RL and Glidden Evermore a try when your in Depot. I think both you and your pocketbook would like it. Behr just doesn't do it for me. I believe that it is over priced for how it performs. If you can catch a rep in the store as I did (they are usually in red shirts), ask as many questions as possible. He or she would probably say the same thing about Behr as I am. :yes:


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## zorro84

Most exterior stains will have to be recoated year after year, especially if you are in a harsh climate. You might want to look at Lowe's Olympic brand for stains and sealers. I heard they are o.k. For that matter, just buy that fake wood for the deck next time. lol! Good luck on the deck, I have the same headaches in Colorado.


----------



## mdlbldrmatt135

donb1959 said:


> I cant think of one good quality BHer has


I haven't had one issue with the 1 part Epoxy paint in my Garage.............


----------



## martyshel

I went to SW today to purchase exterior primer and paint for my trim and fascia. I told them to give me a really good alkyd primer and latex paint. They gave me the PrepRite alkyd primer and the A100 exterior latex paint. Are these good products? I did get the Purdy 2.5" angled brush you guys have been raving about.


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## StrokeOn

*Help*




MasterStrokes said:


> Honestly I’ve had problems with Behr every time I’ve used it. It’s difficult to apply uniformly. You have to push the paint across the surface because it’s too thick. It dries too fast and leaves paint build up spots where the roller overlaps with the cut in. It dries flashy leaving dull and shiny spots when looking down the length of a wall. It smells like ammonia. I’ve seen the junk sag when applied heavily. It has virtually zero leveling power on horizontal surfaces.





MasterStrokes said:


> :whistling2:
> When you have had the problems with the Behr paint drying quickly how did you work around that problem?
> Currently I am helping my Aunt and she prefers Satin Enamel and I am getting impatient because by the time I cut and roll there is that run and if I roll first and try to cut - even when I do just a small section then the paint dries enough that there is a clear demarcation between the rolled section and the cut section. :furious:
> If there is a good way to do that - when you already have the paint, I would appreciate it. I have worked with many different paints - Color Wheel, Porter,American Tradition, different brands of Semi Gloss but never worked with Satin Enamel before and don't think I will ever do so again unless this paint can make me feel good about the finished product. I believe in perfectly good job
> Thanks much in advance:scooter:


----------



## Big Bob

I have skimmed thru the 89 posts above and did not see the following mentioned.

Word to the wise. Check the coverage SF on the paint can label at your Big Box stores (even the name brands). Most will advise 300SF/gal.

Box stores have the makers reformulate paint. Trade on the makers good name and give you less of a product.


Check out SW & BM stores (400SF/gal) 

Thats 25 % more paint to buy to get the same coverage. Do the Math.


----------



## slickshift

Good point Big Bob

I can tell you from personal experience, the "300 sq. ft." claimed is being extremely generous

Actual application in the real world is a little over 200
...240 best case


----------



## sod

*Manor Hall*

Just a quick comment on Pitt's Manor Hall. We painted our home with this product eight years ago, and it still looks as good as the day it was done. We live in the Minneapolis area so we have the extremes of harsh winters and brutal summers. We plan to paint again next summer because the calendar tells me we are living on borrowed time. You can be assured that we will be using Manor Hall again, provided today's formulation is the same as eight years ago. Is it?


----------



## Primo62

Qoute:
Originally Posted by *MasterStrokes*
"People are actually returning it and getting refunds if they complain to higher powers. I’d rather inform a client of its potential problems and the proper way to get a refund instead of taking a chance with a product known to cause problems." 

I just bought $400 worth of behr paints and it looks like I am having similiar problems. I had a friend, not a pro painter, paint some rooms in my basement and it took him several coats to get the paint. Now I have hired a pro painter and he frowned at the thought of using behr paint. He said he would used if he had to but he hates it. Anyways my question is to MasterStrokes. How would you advise me to go about getting refund. I bought it at Home Depot. I saved $7 a gallon on their sale in November....didn't do my research :-( Any advise would be helpful.


----------



## chrisn

I cant think of one good quality BHer has

That's because there are none.:no:


----------



## End Grain

StrokeOn said:


> MasterStrokes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I’ve had problems with Behr every time I’ve used it. It’s difficult to apply uniformly. You have to push the paint across the surface because it’s too thick. It dries too fast and leaves paint build up spots where the roller overlaps with the cut in. It dries flashy leaving dull and shiny spots when looking down the length of a wall. It smells like ammonia. I’ve seen the junk sag when applied heavily. It has virtually zero leveling power on horizontal surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MasterStrokes said:
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2:
> When you have had the problems with the Behr paint drying quickly how did you work around that problem?
> Currently I am helping my Aunt and she prefers Satin Enamel and I am getting impatient because by the time I cut and roll there is that run and if I roll first and try to cut - even when I do just a small section then the paint dries enough that there is a clear demarcation between the rolled section and the cut section. :furious:
> If there is a good way to do that - when you already have the paint, I would appreciate it. I have worked with many different paints - Color Wheel, Porter,American Tradition, different brands of Semi Gloss but never worked with Satin Enamel before and don't think I will ever do so again unless this paint can make me feel good about the finished product. I believe in perfectly good job
> Thanks much in advance:scooter:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is a product called Floetrol which is a conditioner for latex paints. A similar product with a different name is available from the same company for oil based paints. You can buy Floetrol at HD, Lowes and pretty much any paint supply house. It is an excellent conditioner that retards drying and relaxes the paint so that it flows more easily and so that brush marks dissipate and blend, preventing lap marks as the paint relaxes. It's near impossible to paint with any latex paint, especially enamels, here in the AZ desert outdoors without adding it to slow up the drying long enough to allow the paint to smoothen out and dry more naturally. A gallon is around $14 and it goes a long, long way. Doesn't interfere with the color of the paint or its coverage. I keep it on-hand at all times.
Click to expand...


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## End Grain

Behr paints are not my favorite but many of the brand names nentioned in this thread are either not readily available in the AZ marketplace or just as "iffy" on the end results. With desrt heat and A/C 9 months of the year, latex paints will all dry too quickly and leave brush and roller (lap) marks, missed or thin spots, etc. I've realized that without adding Floetrol, it's virtually impossible to achieve uniform and satisfactory results.

Back east, Benjamin Moore and Ronan were favorites. Here in AZ, Dunn-Edwards dominates among builders and designers, specifically in the exterior stucco and custom designer color palettes.


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## jimc48

I just finished making and painting five recipe shelves for Christmas gifts. All were first primed with two coats of Kilz.

Two were painted green with American Accents, satin finish, from Rustoleum. This paint covered very well, leveled well, showed very few brush marks, and was very easy to use and clean up - I was very impressed.

One was blue on which I used Kilz exterior satin. I seem to find that exterior paints don't work extremely well on small projects (paint is too thick, doesn't level well, and shows lots of brush marks) until I mix in some Floetrol conditioner or equivalent after which workability and results are average or a little above. 

Two were red. The first I painted with on-hand American Traditions from Valspar. The paint was old and I had to strain it but it still covered reasonably well and showed only a few brush strokes. Not a real good evaluation because of its age but it worked well for me. For the second red shelf I needed to get more cranberry (red) paint. I got Behr Ultra -OMG what a mistake. It flows like plastic and looks like liquid plastic as I was painting it. It did not cover well at all - three coats + where the others required only two for a full coverage. Leveling was very poor! I was almost ashamed to give this one as a gift but didn't have time to strip and repaint it - I doubt if anything else would have stuck to the "plasticky" coating.

In summation, If I had it to do over again, I would have used Rustoleum's American Accents on all of the projects. It was by far the easiest to use and gave the best results! Too bad it only comes in pints and quarts and I can only find it locally in the pint sizes and limited colors (premixed).

Jim


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## sirwired

For shelving, it is hard to top the waterbourne enamels from SW or BM. (ProClassic from SW, or Impervo from BM.) Next time you have a similar project, try them out. They leave an oil-like finish with few brush marks (if applied correctly), and once cured, no sticking.

SirWired


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## np2008

*painting cabinets and doors*

I have read all the comments in this forum. And I'm glad I did that before I start my painting. I'm totally new to painting and was about to go with CR recommendation and use Behr. Of course, I wouldn't know if painting is hard or Behr is causing me trouble. I'll try SW or BM based on your suggestion. Thanks to everybody here.

Do you have any recommendation which SW or BM to use for the cabinets in the kitchen and for all the doors in the house?


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## sirwired

Both SW and BM make Waterbourne enamels. (SW ProClassic or BM Impervo) These are excellent water-base finishes that give a nice oil-like look. Enamels are much better than paints for items like that, as they give a nice, hard finish, instead of the more "rubbery" texture of paint.

However, neither the SW or BM go on exactly like paint. I have used the SW ProClassic and have a couple of tips:

1) Work _fast_. ProClassic does not maintain a wet edge very long.
2) NEVER "touch up" wet. Because the finish tacks up quickly, if you see a "thin spot", fix it on the next coat.
3) It looks terrible wet. It looks thin, and not very transparent. As it dries, it looks MUCH better.
4) Don't overbrush. ProClassic has great leveling properties, so as long as you prevent drips, the finish itself will take care of being nice and smooth. Apply it with one stroke, go back over it with another, and move on.

I believe Impervo has a different set of quirks.

For either finish, a quality paint brush is key. A popular one is a 2 1/2" angle-sash Nylon Purdy, but really you should use whatever top-quality brush you feel comfortable with (Purdy, Wooster and Corona are three popular brands.) Don't be scared by a $15 or so price tag. With proper care, it will last you forever, and will save you TONS of aggravation over a cheap brush.

Lastly, prep work is key. You may want to open a new thread describing what sort of finish is on there now, and folks can tell you what sort of prep you need to do before putting the final finish on there.

SirWired


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## np2008

Thanks SirWired. These are great tips.


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## wfischer

So after reading every post in this thread, I feel like a total newbie. I've bought 7 gallons of Behr paint from the local Big Box Store, with mixed results. The off-white and light lavender paint I was reasonably pleased with. I haven't noticed any major problems with either, save for a few hard-to-see brush strokes in the white.

Unfortunately, I can't really say anything positive about my kitchen, which I painted dark red. At first I chalked it up to the fact that dark red is a difficult color, but after reading the posts here... well, let's just say that the next paint I buy will be from the small, local Ben Moore retailer.


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## brucetackett

I'm amazed. I've used Behr paint and have never had any problems and like the way it turned out. I am a very meticulous painter...perhaps that has something to do with the way the jobs i've done in my home with Behr have turned out. If that stuff is garbage and I've had success with it, i can't wait to use some of the other stuff to see what the difference is.


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## Rehabber

Behr/HD go to the bank with the fact that the average DIYr has never used good paint. The way it comes off the brush, holds a wet edge, flows without runs/sags, flows to a smooth finish, not to mention better coverage and GOOD advice if needed from a real paint store,:whistling2:


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## slickshift

*...got a good question*



jerryh3 said:


> Just curious. What is the failure rate of Behr paint?


That's a hard one to answer jerry

There's no data collection agency on this, and data is extremely hard to check

First off, I would like to say that even with a horrific 25% failure rate, that means a 75% non-failure rate
So it's possible to use a "horrific" product and get "just fine" results
No product could fail every single time and stay on the market

Also please keep in mind that a professional painter can do more painting in a week than some DIYers do in a lifetime
This is not an exaggeration by any means...I'm just saying we paint a lot
And of course, some DIYers paint more than others....
But by the shear numbers of paint jobs, you must give a little edge to the professional painter

Their job is to get in and out as quickly as possible, while still doing a professional quality job with quality materials that make the painter look good

If they could save any money by using certain products, they (and I) certainly would
Time = Money

Behr _can_ work OK in best case scenarios
I know this because I've used it
Many times
It still has it's problems, believe me
It is hard to work with, that means it takes longer
It doesn't cover well, that means it takes longer and need more coats...and takes more time (therefore costs me more money)
And frankly the finish simply isn't that good

For a DIYer, they often say '"it's my labor, so I don't care"
My response to that is, "Would you like to spend all weekend painting your bathroom, or would you like to be done with it by 2PM on Saturday, and do what you want on Sunday?"
Think about it

But we are (or rather I am supposed to be) talking about failures here

Failures include failure to cover and failure to hide...and a few others...
But adhesion failure is the worst
That's when I often get the call
These are tough to quantify, because there other factors that contribute to failure
But when time and time again, you are called into homes that have massive paint failures, and time and time again the product that was used was the same one, over and over, you start to wonder
Then there's the ones where they never call, and aren't about to do it over themselves, and just live with it

In my experience, I'd have to say that in the real world it fails between 20 and 40 percent of the time, and 25% is probably a "safe" number
If for some reason we could get the actual numbers (which we will not), and it was shown to be 10%, I wouldn't be too surprised (well, maybe a little), I'm sure that I personally get a lot of calls on this type of situation, so my outlook may be skewed
It doesn't matter though
Even ten percent is just to darn high
That is huge
I'm not putting my name on it, and I'm not recommending it to anyone
How could I?

Needless to say, I don't use it anymore
And it is hard enough to work with, and make look good (acceptable), that I need to increase my bid to homeowners 30-50% if they "insist" on Behr
...and they must provide the paint

So if it's a $1000 job with me including premium quality paints, it's $1300-$1500 (depending) plus paint, if they want the Behr
The stuff is just that bad


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## chrisn

Behr _can_ work OK in best case scenarios
I know this because I've used it
Many times
It still has it's problems, believe me
It is hard to work with, that means it takes longer
It doesn't cover well, that means it takes longer and need more coats...and takes more time (therefore costs me more money)
And frankly the finish simply isn't that good

Well said.

So if it's a $1000 job with me including premium quality paints, it's $1300-$1500 (depending) plus paint, if they want the Behr
The stuff is just that bad

Again,well said. For me,I just walk away if home owner insists on Behr,to me it's just that bad and I don't need any more stress.:no:


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## julie621

My husband and I are in the midst of a complete renovation of our house. We normally use Benjamin Moore paint but HD was having a sale on Behr so we bought the primer and the ceiling paint. Is the primer okay to use, and then use the BM on the walls for the actual color? We really wanted to start painting today and I don't want to have to deal with returning all these cans and going to the paint store. 

We bought the stain-blocking primer, because we have new sheet rock walls and the lady at HD said it would cover the tape better.

Thanks.


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## sirwired

julie621 said:


> My husband and I are in the midst of a complete renovation of our house. We normally use Benjamin Moore paint but HD was having a sale on Behr so we bought the primer and the ceiling paint. Is the primer okay to use, and then use the BM on the walls for the actual color? We really wanted to start painting today and I don't want to have to deal with returning all these cans and going to the paint store.
> 
> We bought the stain-blocking primer, because we have new sheet rock walls and the lady at HD said it would cover the tape better.
> 
> Thanks.


That's an excellent question. The HD paint should probably do half-way okay for the ceilings, as those usually don't need the world's finest paint.

How well will the primer work for your walls? Couldn't say. I don't remember seeing too many folks here asking about Behr primer.

As a side note, this is another excellent reason not to get paint advice from a Big Box store. The finest kind of primer for new drywall is drywall sealer. If there are no stains, there is no reason to get a stain blocking primer. (Drywall sealers are often cheaper.) That said, the stain blocking primer will likely perform the same function as the drywall sealer, assuming it is not otherwise low-quality stuff. (Not necessarily a safe assumption.)

SirWired


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## mcvane

*Behr is poor in my experience*

Although we saved a few dollars in buying Behr paints when it was on sale, we painted our entire house over the last 4 years. The colours were acceptable, but i wouldn't say they were good to withstand any kind of beating - I've had to repaint some scratch marks here and there.

On the other hand, my mother's condo was painted with Benjamin Moore 15 years ago (early 1990s). Only last year did she decide to do a repaint. It didn't even require one, but she wanted a change in colour.

My conclusion: spend more and get the long lasting results of Benjamin Moore.


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## slickshift

slick said:


> So if it's a $1000 job with me including premium quality paints, it's $1300-$1500 (depending) plus paint, if they want the Behr
> The stuff is just that bad





chris said:


> For me,I just walk away if home owner insists on Behr,to me it's just that bad and I don't need any more stress.:no:


Essentially, the result is (effectively) the same with my aproach
When faced with this scenario, usually the H/O will not choose the more expensive option (and hopefully begin to see the light), or they will find someone who won't charge extra for Behr
Usually it is the former rather than the latter


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## julie621

Thanks sirwired! Well, we got two coats of the primer on the bathroom walls (figured we'd start with small rooms) and it looked okay. We'll have to see what it really looks like it in the daylight.:001_unsure: 

But we're definitely switching to Ben Moore for the actual color on the walls...just don't want the aggravation and have already spent lots of $$ renovating...don't want to ruin it all with a bad paint job! 

Thanks again!

~Julie


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## mcvane

Ironically, I was doing some touchups with some old Behr paint I had (from the original wall colour from one year ago), and after a year the reflectiveness is not the same! So even after stirring very well, there is a noticeable dullness in the touchup area!

Benjamin Moore pretty much provides a lasting effect in high traffic areas, so you typically won't have to touch up much at all. That is the bonus of it.


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## dcheek20

Behr is a top of the line paint no doubt about it,however professionals and even DIY people get used to a certain brand of paint and stick by what works for them.....paint brand preference is a heated subject with a lot of people, some people swear by BM, or Pitt, SW, or Valspar but most of the time it all comes down to what you are comfortable using. Behr is a fairly thick paint and is not the greatest leveling paint, but for hyde it is one of the tops, again my opinion. As far as one coat coverage goes I will have to disagree with some of the posts stating "No Paint is one coat coverage" that question has to be answered IT DEPENDS....IE what color are you using (light or dark) MOST dark colors are not going to cover in one coat. Second are you painting over a primed and prepared surface, if so a LOT of the premium paints will cover in 1 coat especially if you are rolling and keep a loaded nap, but that being said some colors you are going to "work for" to get the true color, especially your reds. You could never say NO paint covers in one coat ever b/c that would be false it is always "it depends". Lastly I have been using Kilz Casual Colors who is fairly new to the painting world (been making Primers forever) but is an outstanding paint for hyde and durability, and has become a favorite of mine. Again this is my opinion and I feel sure this thread will continue forever on why Behr or BM, or Kilz Casual Colors is the greatest paint, but for a DIY it is best to try several reputable premium paints and find out what works best for them, just b/c I like Kilz Casual Colors or Charlie likes BM does not make either one crap.


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## sirwired

You said that Behr is a fairly thick paint, and prone to brush marks. Why on earth would you ever use it then? There are plenty of wall paints on the market that will go on smoother, not be prone to brush marks, and hide just great! Sounds like that Behr paint, has viscosity issues, an open time too short, and poor leveling.

The biggest issue is consistency; as SlickShift has explained several times, BigBoxCo paint just isn't consistent enough. Even a relatively small failure rate (5-10%) would be a business-killing disaster for a pro. (Failure being defined as adhesion issues, sheen problems, coverage problems, brush marks, roller marks, consistency problems, extended dry time, too-short open time, etc.) For an extra couple of dollars a gallon for good paint at a local paint store, those failure issues, and the massive labor associated with them, largely go away.

While I am not a pro, my time is still valuable, and piling on yet another coat of paint, or even worse, scraping off a failed one, is not my idea of a good way to spend a weekend.

As many folks have said here, if it would save pros money (and therefore increase profit), they would all be buying paints at BigBoxCo. I don't remember EVER seeing a pro painter picking up a few fivers at my local HD. I don't know too many businessmen that would turn down a chance to increase profit... it can't all be explained by brand loyalty.

For a job I would be proud of, not even the flagship products from the finest paint companies in the world will produce something I would leave after just a single coat. If you are going to go through all the tedious prep work to get ready to paint, why leave off at just one coat? The prep work for a quality job (repairs, cleaning, spot-priming, masking, drop clothing, etc.) almost always takes far longer than the work for a second coat. For a color change, "pinholes" in the finished job are pretty much inevitable, even with good paint, if you leave off with a single coat.

Yeah, I suppose that for a cheap, non-color-change rehab job, you could "freshen up" the paint with a single coat of mid-grade paint, but if I am going to live there, why cheap out?

SirWired

P.S. As a random side note, Behr, Kilz, and Kilz Casual colors are all made by Masco Corporation Decorative Architectural Products. Not that the manufacturer of a paint makes a whole lot of difference. Most (though not all) paint companies make really good paint, and really lousy paint, SW and BM included.


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## dcheek20

Good post Sirwired.....If experiences you have had or as I have seen a ton of people have had with Behr prevents you from using the brand then I have to respect your professional opinions, but I am only speaking from my experiences with Behr....Yes its thick and no it is not the greatest leveling paint out, but there are problems with EVERY paint no paint is flawless and my point is people are loyal to that particular brand b/c they have not had as many issues with there chosen brand as Behr. But in my personal case I have done many successful jobs with Behr, but do not like BM at all....mainly b/c the BM has had some fading issues with several BM jobs so I prefer not to use this brand, but I sure do not say this paint is crap.....it has a huge following and thats great, use what works for you is my main point, and if that is not loyalty I will use preferred brands. And I have seen MANY pros use Behr paint and only use their product and actually did a job last week with Behr so Professional use and just a side note if you make a relationship with HD store manager prices are very competitive with SW. I do not let customers dictate what kind of paint I use either, but if it is a paint I have used and I know have a solid and reputable backing then why not please your customer. Now that said there are customers who just want you to slap a coat and that does not fly....I have to have used it and had success. Lastly I know very well there is no magic one coat paint, but there are paints the average homeowner can use on a primed and prepped surface and get a very very nice job. So one coat is absolutely possible for a DIYr. 

Oh yeah about Masco owning Behr and Masterchem Industries who makes the kilz casual colors and kilz primers....look up Masco on their website www.masco .com and go to their companies you will see Behr process and Masterchem Industries who makes kilz primer and kilz casual colors.


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## chrisn

And I have seen MANY pros use Behr paint and only use their product and actually did a job last week with Behr so 

Name just (2) two.:whistling2:


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## dcheek20

Chris,

Have you used their paint lately?? I am assuming no, but they actually have a great high gloss sheen that finishes better than any HG I have seen.....eventhough there are not many HG on the market that I know of this really does leave a nice shine. And to answer your question I have used this product Many times so that is number one.....and number 2.....look around on this message board I promise you will find that number 2 pro that has used the product successfully. I know you do not like the product and thats ok...but MANY people obviously do it sells pretty well last I heard.


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## kimberland30

I'm no paint expert but I happen to like Behr paint. I also like Kilz (Walmart) and American Traditions (Lowes). I have all three brands on my walls and haven't had any problems with them. Maybe one day I'll venture away from my comfort zone of buying "cheap" paint (as opposed to BM, SW, etc) but for me it works and that's fine with me.

We are using Behr in our den right now. We used two coats of Behr primer on our paneling walls, and two coats of the color. It painted smoothly and looks great. Yesterday while scrubbing brick, I made a hot mess all over the wall adjacent to the brick. The residue came off fine and no damage to the paint at all. 

One paint I absolutely will never buy is Ace Hardware brand. It SUCKS. I painted trim with it in our guest room, and the crap just PEELED off after it dried. I also painted furniture with it with the same result. I ended up having to sand everything down and repainting (I used American Traditions) and it turned out fine. Even with heavy use, it's held up great.


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## joewho

Sirwired, you have a pm.


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## zmurphy

first off this my first trip to the painting forums and when i saw this thread, i just had to post my experience w/ Behr.

We used Behr a couple years ago to paint our kitchen. We did a deep tomato red. The color we were painting over was a light taupe, so we kned going in, we would need a colored primer to cover the much lighter color.
we used a Behr tinted (the same color) primer and then 5 coats of the red we chose. 6 coats total? We were to the point that we hated the Behr paints. And yes we knew since we were going red it would take more coats.
but that was insane.

Since then we have used the American Traditions from Lowes for our 3 bathrooms and theater room. Using the AT paint 2 coats was perfect. Usually the AT is around $22 for a gallon and i don't believe the Behr was any cheaper.

Needless to say, we will NEVER use Behr again!


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## mgarfield

When my wife and I bought our house we bought all Behr for the kitchen, dining room, and both bedrooms. Painted the Dining first, cold night had a lot of drips, blamed it on the cold and my own neglect because I was doing it at 1am. The kitchen didn't turn out to great either because it was impossible to cut in with due to the thickness. So after this I still had paint for our bedroom and the ENTIRE UPSTAIRS already purchased. SO far I have painted everything but the office upstairs using the behr paint, not because I like it but because im stubborn and I refuse to throw it out!


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## DIYHelper

Just a quick note, the newest Consumer Reports is out and in the first page of the article it states that Behr has been replaced as one of the best paints by Valspar, Benjamin Moore, and Kilz I think. PS...I'd be pretty wary of the Kilz, but I agree with the others.


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## End Grain

Kilz is okay but I find that unless I thin it a bit with water and add a goodly amount of Floetrol, it's too thick and it sets up way too quickly. Tough to work with outdoors here in AZ. I prefer to use the Bullseye 1-2-3 waterbase or B-I-N primer with shellac in it wherever it's practical. Glidden's Gripper is pretty good but it also tends to set up too quickly. However, top coats DO stick very well to it.


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## kcdave

We painted our bedroom with Behr, although it was very viscous we used a very dark color on top of a light color and needed only one coat. Ok, maybe it really should have had two but it looks pretty darn good with one. We recently finished priming our newly drywalled basement and used SW Preprite 400 primer which was terrible and I paid $25 a gal. Not only did it not cover worth a hoot but it had lots of coagulated stringies that needed to be constantly wiped off the wall, may have been from the 5 gal can?. I don't think I could have picked a worse primer. We used some Preprite 200 in another room and it was much much better. We Just finished painting one room an off white on top of the white primer using Classic 99 Satin. The coverage was terrible and it will need another coat. I bought Classic 99 flat to paint the ceiling, which is going to be a fairly dark color. I'm a little worried about that. For the main room we are going to go with the Super paint satin in a light beige. I wonder if I had used the Super Paint in the one room if I woul dbe needing the second coat?


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## DIYHelper

kcdave said:


> We painted our bedroom with Behr, although it was very viscous we used a very dark color on top of a light color and needed only one coat. Ok, maybe it really should have had two but it looks pretty darn good with one. We recently finished priming our newly drywalled basement and used SW Preprite 400 primer which was terrible and I paid $25 a gal. Not only did it not cover worth a hoot but it had lots of coagulated stringies that needed to be constantly wiped off the wall, may have been from the 5 gal can?. I don't think I could have picked a worse primer. We used some Preprite 200 in another room and it was much much better. We Just finished painting one room an off white on top of the white primer using Classic 99 Satin. The coverage was terrible and it will need another coat. I bought Classic 99 flat to paint the ceiling, which is going to be a fairly dark color. I'm a little worried about that. For the main room we are going to go with the Super paint satin in a light beige. I wonder if I had used the Super Paint in the one room if I woul dbe needing the second coat?


I don't know why, and its certainly not your fault, but you seem to be purchasing Commercial type products. One thing to remember with primers is that they are designed to do much more than hide, and in some instances, they may not hide well at all because they are there for the sealing properties. I would go with SuperPaint for your future endeavors. Classic 99 is extremely old technology.


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## crxrag98

Behr was ranked #1 (Home Depot) in paint by comsumer reports. Kilz paint was ranked #2 (Wal-Mart). Both companies are owned by Masco Corporation; and both are great primers. I used Behr for my office and bedroom. The key with paint is to always primer.


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## DIYHelper

crxrag98 said:


> Behr was ranked #1 (Home Depot) in paint by comsumer reports. Kilz paint was ranked #2 (Wal-Mart). Both companies are owned by Masco Corporation; and both are great primers. I used Behr for my office and bedroom. The key with paint is to always primer.


The latest report had a lot of paints number one. It depends on the finish, and I'm not sure what is meant by both are great primers. Standard repaints usually don't need primers.


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## End Grain

I'm not a fan of Behr or Kilz but I do have occasion to use them, such as if my customer already has the Behr or used a particular Behr custom colr that I have to go out and match. I think that if you're the average homeowner, you spend more actual hands-on time painting a room or whatever than a professional would and you're more patient throughout the process - after all, it's your very own patch of paradise - and you're expectations are going to be different as a non-pro. You're not making your living doing it day-in and day-out, month-after-month.

I'm not a professional painter by trade but I'm still a professional and if, after all is said and done, my customer's happy with the color and the finished product, who am I to say otherwise? They know I didn't make the paint. To sum it up, it's all relevant to one's expectations.


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## DIYtestdummy

I was thinking the same thing yesterday while painting: I am a "professional homeowner", and I actually care how it turns out. $140 worth of Sherwin Willams Preprite 400 and mixed flat red. I was hating how bad the primer was going on and the color shade didn't turn out like the sample we wanted. This morning I was blown away at how it turned out. Way better than the Behr, Ralph Lauren, and whatever custom junk the PO had up on the walls. It did roll on nicer than I've ever seen paint lay. 3 coats and a coat of primer - nice and even, and none of the gloss chocolate underneath is bleeding through. I think we will go ahead and spend the extra $10-15 per gallon for results like this.


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## brucetackett

Hey all I posted on 1/15/08 at 11:57 AM (post 103) and I was insistent that Behr was just fine. I had used Behr on my entire house. I never had any issues with it. I am a very meticulous painter. I noticed that the common "best brand" was Benajmin Moore, so I thought I'd give it a try to see what the fuss was about. I painted the nursery for my unborn child last night using Benjamin Moore paint. I used the flalt on the ceiling and the matte finish on the walls. I must admit that like it a lot more than Behr. It went on much more smooth, less splatter and the drying time was a bit faster, which made putting the second coat on much easier. I wake up this morning and the finish is amazing. I'm definately a BM fan now. I'm not so sure it it's worth $40 vs. $20 (Behr) per gallon, but I bet I can convince my wife of it!


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## DIYtestdummy

I went ahead and picked up some Behr Premium for a "small job" the wife wanted done. It was on sale (stupid rebate) and I had time to waste to have it mixed. It was thick, not too bad. It had trouble sticking to the white base underneath. Drying time was supposed to be 2 hours, but was more like 4. This morning I put the original sample next to it...not even close.

You get what you pay for, and a lot more headaches.

UPDATE: This stuff is still sticky and it started to peel at the edges. Hopefully Home depot will honor a refund.


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## tverhoef

baileyjune said:


> I would appreciate any info on priming interior walls. I'm planning to use a bright red latex paint. I watch a lot of HGTV and on their shows, they say to use a tinted primer (the color of the paint) so that you will only need one coat. Someone told me to use a grey primer which will still require two coats. I'm really confused. Should I just use three coats of paint and forget the primer?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Its not just about the primer being tinted It's also just as important as how you apply it.

I normally work in 3ft areas while using a deep base color making sure after I apply the paing I work and spread it evenly in this area and then lay it off in one direction a down strock from ceiling to floor is easyer to touch up then if your final strock is up. and just follow these steps until your done.


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## terri_and_jj

i used to only buy Finneran & Haley ( or something like that ) . Not sure if that company even exists anymore, but i LOVED everything about it. I used the Behr from HD and the Glidden from Lowes and while i am not a fan of either, I'll take anybrand over the Glidden from Lowes, that was hands down the worst i've ever used. Out of all the big box paint I've tried, the Ralph Laureen stuff at Depot made me happiest. Maybe it's the same Behr product with a different label, maybe i used better brushes and rollers, but for some reason it covered a lot better than the other stuff i've tried from the big box stores


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## tverhoef

*You sound a bit like myself*

I used Behr, once...... and never again I did take the time to find out how to make it work for me It didnt help that it was an innert base, Ivy leage Green, I will never forget.:no: but the product in not a nice one professionally speaking.



MasterStrokes said:


> George I agree with you in a sense. A professional painter can and will make the best out of any paint but I don’t understand why a professional would want to use or recommend anything but the best products. The ease of application, the quality of the cured finish, the eye appeal. All of these are what being a professional is all about.
> 
> I’ve slung paint since 1979. I guess you’d have to understand the art of painting to get anything out of this but I truly love to paint on most days. Put me in front of a group of people and I’ll enchant them with my performance. Give me professional tools and paint, I’ll give you a superior finished surface at lightning speed. The tool and paint become an extension of you. Be the paint.
> 
> I’m also a perfectionist. I varnish my brush handles. I soap up the heels before dipping them in paint. I clean a brush I’ve owned forever two, or three times a day to give it the respect a good brush deserves. My drop clothes stay in immaculate condition because I know the power of a good piece of straight edge cardboard. When I roll a ceiling the only drip I may get and I do say “may” is from the roller frame not my professional grade sheep skin nap. Give me a deep color to cut in against a difficult edge. I’ll put on my (Petzl E43P2 Tikka LED Headlamp) and have that edge as straight as an arrow. At the end of the day I’m clean, my tools are clean and the client is bedazzled. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had clients comment on my performance and I’m happy when it gets noticed. That’s what it’s all about for me.
> 
> I see so many applicators today making their jobs miserable, wasting time and grumbling about having to throw paint on day after day. I look at their tools and paint labels. If they only took the time to invest in quality products they’d find work much more enjoyable. It doesn’t have to cost a fortune and the investment pays for itself in so many different ways.
> 
> I’m sorry George but your opinions here thus far take me back to the years when I was simply an applicator that didn’t know the difference.
> 
> I almost cringe at having to type these two words together. “Behr Paints” is atrocious, horrendous, over rated cheap junk sold to consumers by the devil himself. Opening the lid releases little paint demons that frolic in your head telling you to subscribe to consumer report. Come to the “Church of the Immaculate Artist” George.  Come to the light. Let us exorcise you of these familiar spirits and we’ll have a killer weenie roast afterwards.
> 
> Mark


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## clmasse

Hey all 

This is my first post. Yes I do work for HD. I've recently started painting. I chose behr eggshell for my Hallway. After about three days I noticed the corners of the HW are somewhat glossy. (I have not finished yet, trim and ceiling need to be finished) the old paint job was glidden spread ultra semi gloss on virtually everything. After reading the latest CP on int. paints in noticed the poor rating for gloss change....

But I will sorta defend behr's int/ext product. 100% acrylic formula with Titanium oxide for the filler. White base has 3.2 lb of Ti oxide, pastel base has 2.5lb of Ti oxide, accent has 1 lb of Ti oxide. deep base has no Ti oxide. 

With other paints companies I have seen fillers such as kaolin, clay, talc, calcium carbonate, ethanol, propanic acid, ether, silica, Contents partially unknown, paraffin oil, and something called "trade secret" whatever that may be. These fillers are used to make paints cheaper to manufacture. 
Why would you want to use a product with excessive fillers in them? 

Gotta go for now. I'll check back in a couple of days for feedback.

Clmasse


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## sirwired

If you are calling TiO2 a "filler", you don't know much, if anything, about paint, and are _exactly_ the reason most folks here advise people to go to paint stores. TiO2 is primarily what makes white paint white; it is a pigment. Accent/Deep Color paints don't have much TiO2 because that would give you a more pastel-like color instead of the color you were going for; pigments out of the tint machine are used instead. (That is also why deeper bases have less paint in the can... more room for the tint they need from the machine.)

Paint is far more than just pigment, polymer, and solvent...

The other ingredients you mentioned... many of them are vital parts of their paint formulations. All the "chemistry" on the paint label has many different uses: some of them help keep pigment in suspension, some extend open time/prevent skinning, some provide (or reduce) sheen, some improve flow, others reduce spatter, yet more aid in leveling, others enhance adhesion... there are mildewcides, solvents, flex enhancers, etc.

Are some of those ingredients "filler" that do little else but bulk up the dry-film or the can contents? Yes. But most of those ingredients are not, and were put there for other purposes than to reduce cost. How you can automatically assume that an ingredient labeled "trade secret" is there solely to reduce cost is beyond me.

If this is what Masco and/or HD is putting in your training materials, then they are scummier than I thought.

What the heck does "100% Acrylic" mean, anyway? Given that the vast majority of what is in the can in any paint, cannot, by definition, be an Acrylic, this is somewhat confusing. ("Acrylic" refers to a specific set of chemical compounds, and TiO2 certainly isn't one.)

SirWired


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## slickshift

I would be remiss if I didn't back up the accuracy of sirwired's technical information
Especially that Titanium Oxide is NOT a filler


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## clmasse

sirwired said:


> If you are calling TiO2 a "filler", you don't know much, if anything, about paint, and are _exactly_ the reason most folks here advise people to go to paint stores. TiO2 is primarily what makes white paint white; it is a pigment. Accent/Deep Color paints don't have much TiO2 because that would give you a more pastel-like color instead of the color you were going for; pigments out of the tint machine are used instead. (That is also why deeper bases have less paint in the can... more room for the tint they need from the machine.)
> 
> 
> 
> Paint is far more than just pigment, polymer, and solvent...
> 
> The other ingredients you mentioned... many of them are vital parts of their paint formulations. All the "chemistry" on the paint label has many different uses: some of them help keep pigment in suspension, some extend open time/prevent skinning, some provide (or reduce) sheen, some improve flow, others reduce spatter, yet more aid in leveling, others enhance adhesion... there are mildewcides, solvents, flex enhancers, etc.
> 
> Are some of those ingredients "filler" that do little else but bulk up the dry-film or the can contents? Yes. But most of those ingredients are not, and were put there for other purposes than to reduce cost. How you can automatically assume that an ingredient labeled "trade secret" is there solely to reduce cost is beyond me.
> 
> If this is what Masco and/or HD is putting in your training materials, then they are scummier than I thought.
> 
> What the heck does "100% Acrylic" mean, anyway? Given that the vast majority of what is in the can in any paint, cannot, by definition, be an Acrylic, this is somewhat confusing. ("Acrylic" refers to a specific set of chemical compounds, and TiO2 certainly isn't one.)
> 
> SirWired


nope you are wrong sirwired Titanium oxide is not a pigment. it is a solid that is the main filler to the behr paint formula. 30% by volume for ultra pure white and decreases for pastel, accent, and deep bases. You're reffered to KX which is the universal white pigment for all paint companies. KX pigment is limestone and talc mostly. Titanium oxide also provide the best coverage in "all brands". looking at MSDS shows the contents of paints most brands have more clay, talc, kaolin, and so on. those fillers don't have the hiding power of Titanium oxide. Behr, Kilz, BM, outperform SW due to the higher content of Titanium oxide. 

Considering chemical makeup of some brands wouldn't you agree that fatty acid esters and propanic acids are going to break down a paint? 

100% styrene acrylic polymer is used in the formula. styrene acrylic has the best scrub resistance, adhesion, and pigment dispersion.

My contractors that have switched completely to behr products are, receiving better job lot quote, spending less time at a clients home, using less product for applications, getting more jobs, and making allot more money.


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## sirwired

> nope you are wrong sirwired Titanium oxide is not a pigment. it is a solid that is the main filler to the behr paint formula.


_Titanium Dioxide not a pigment?_ HuhWhat!?!?! I'm confused... you seem to have all the other properties of TiO2 correct (high hide, coverage, etc.), but you insist it is a "filler"? What do you think a pigment is then?

From Wikipedia, the _very first_ sentence under "Applications" for TiO2:
"Titanium dioxide is _the most widely used white pigment_ [emphasis mine] because of its brightness and very high refractive index (_n_=2.7), in which it is surpassed only by a few other materials..." Later on... "TiO2 is also an effective opacifier in powder form, where it is employed _as a pigment_ [again, emphasis mine] to provide whiteness and opacity to products such as paints, coatings, plastics, papers, inks, foods, medicines (i.e. pills and tablets) as well as most toothpastes."



> Considering chemical makeup of some brands wouldn't you agree that fatty acid esters and propanic acids are going to break down a paint?


I would agree to no such thing. There is much more to paint than what is left on the wall (the vehicle (such as acrylic styrene), pigment, and fillers) when you are done. Some of the additives do things like increase open time, aid in leveling, increase pigment dispersal, resist mildew, etc.

I can't find "Propanic Acid", except as an apparent misspelling (or maybe synonym... ask an organic chemist) of _Propanoic_ Acid, which is a synonym for Propionic Acid. Propionic Acid Esters are indeed present in paints, but those pains include Behr Interior Flat Deep Base. Oh, and the 2-Methyl Propionic Acid Monoster in that specific Behr paint? It's a Fatty Acid Ester... I hope it doesn't "break down paint" too much, since Behr puts it in its own paint.

_Propenoic_ acid is also a common paint ingredient, including, again, of Behr Interior Flat Deep Base.



> 30% by volume for ultra pure white and decreases for pastel, accent, and deep bases.


I don't know where you are getting a 30% TiO2 content from the Behr MSDS. The MSDS for Behr Premium Interior Flat Ultra Pure White states a range anywhere from 10-30%. It also states an equal percentage of Nephaline Syenite, which is a kind of silica-based mineral. (Just as talc is, actually...) All paints have non-pigment solids in them; brands just vary as to which ones and how much. And yes, lower-end paints from any brand do indeed have less TiO2, and more random silica-based solids (talc, clay, whatever...) I suspect Behr doesn't want to disclose their exact formula, and I wouldn't blame them for that...

The Behr MSDS (as are Ben Moore's) are not at all useful for determining paint composition, since they all give a range (Ben Moore gives a Max.) SWP's provide the actual composition (of the hazardous ingredients only, of course), instead of a range.



> 100% styrene acrylic polymer is used in the formula.


As far as the Styrene Acrylic goes... okay... yes, they can make a good base. However, Styrene Acrylic is not some magic Behr invention... SWP Duration, and I am sure other other paint brands, also use Styrene Acrylics of some sort.

What does it mean to say that the paint has 100% Styrene Acrylic? Since obviously there are other things in the paint other than the Styrene Acrylic (like pigment, water, silica, etc.) what is it 100% of? Is the Styrene Acrylic 100% of itself?



> You're reffered to KX which is the universal white pigment for all paint companies.


That's strange... I google for "kx pigment", and I get all of two hits, one of which is this very discussion. For a "universal" pigment, it sure is hard to find information about it... If I google it as something other than a phrase, it appears to be a property of a pigment, not a pigment itself. KX also refers to the brand name of a silicone paint binder for heat-resistant paint made by some German chemical company. Again, not a pigment.

......

Saying that you have some customers that are pleased with Behr paint and use it to make more money is certainly something you can state, and of course, very likely to be true. (Although not a view shared by some other Behr paint customers, many of which have posted here with their woes.) But if you are going to make objective, allegedly factual, statements, do some more research before making statements that are easy to demonstrate as not true (TiO2 is not a pigment) or not well supported. (fatty acid esters break down paint)

SirWired


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## DIYHelper

Just a small point for this discussion is that the use of TiO2 has a point of diminishing return. So anyone, Behr or otherwise, claiming they have the most Ti02 doesn't really mean much. The increase in hide at that point let's say between 30% and 34% wouldn't even be able to be seen by the naked eye.

Sirwired is correct, that it is the synergistic properties of the paint when it is complete that makes it perform, not the individual components.

I also like the commercial that says that Behr has the whitest base, so its easier to get to the colors that you want. Of course, painters would know that this is a stupid comment because the colorant changes the paint anyway. The only thing it may do is save some colorant for the retailer. But it does absolutely nothing for the person who purchases the paint. If you like a color, and pick a color, you'll get that color, no matter how white the base is. At an SW store, HD, Lowe's or a Benjamin Moore store.


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## Handyman50

You know what they say, "the difference in a professional and a novice is, the pro knows how to fix his/her mistakes". This is why a pro painter can use any paint; some better than others.

I recently painted a small bathroom with Behr top-of-the-line latex. I thought that it was okay, but would think twice about using it again. On the other hand, I recently helped my daughter paint a large room with top-of-the-line Pittsburgh latex. I don't believe there is anyone who can mess it up. Sometimes when you paint over the top of newly applied paint, it leaves shinny spots. Not with the Pittsburgh paint. Like I say, I found it to be foolproof. 

Just my $.02.


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## DepotDweller

wow, all this discussion over paint......I've only ever used Behr, and have had no problems or complaints, but I guess ignorance is bliss. I'm looking forward to my next project so I can try Benjamen Moore or Sherwin Williams. I can see it now "OMG, I'VE BEEN MISSING THIS ALL THESE YEARS?" :no: :laughing:


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## End Grain

I think Benjamin Moore is an extraordinary, high quality paint. My dad and uncle swore by it back in the 50's and I grew up in NY using it almost exclusively and I would specifically buy it for my own home, hands down. And, there are other exceptional national brands as well, e.g. Sherwin-Williams for one. But and for as long as HD continues to finance consumer purchases over $299 interest-free for 6 mos. minimum - 12 mos. very frequently - we can all be _Las Vegas betting sure_ that Behr, or whatever brand they choose to carry down the road, will continue to sell and sell very well.

Sometimes, it's not about the best or highest quality. Very often, it's all about the deal that one cannot refuse. When folks are trying to spruce up their _digs_ on a budget, working with someone else's money at no additional cost is always going to be a plus and a major selling point. I mention this again only because Behr remains a force to be reckoned with as it is the single most dominant brand for John Q. and Jane Public to be inundated with AND it is plentiful AND it is readily available. Like horse doo-doo out West, it's everywhere. :laughing:


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## Handyman50

Well, I decided to see what Consumer Report has to say about paint. Here is the best rated interior paints in that order:

Kilz - Casual colors satin (Walmart) 86 out of 100 (CR Best Buy)

Valspar - Signature Colors (Lowe’s) - 83

Benjamin Moore - Aura - 83

Valspar - Signature Colors (Lowe’s) - 81

Behr - Premium Plus Enamel (Home Depot) - 80

True Value - Easy Care - 79

Then, it is down-hill from there. Sherwin-Williams is rated in the 40's.

I know SW is spoken highly of here, but I swore I would never use it again several years ago. I am not a pro painter, but I have owned 9 homes and painted for many others. So, I am a decent painter. Behr worked far better for me. However, I believe that my favorite is Pittsburgh.

I have purchased numerous items based on CR's ratings and have never been steered wrong. I think is interesting based on what we have all said about our likes and dislikes in paint. FWIW!


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## slickshift

Again, please keep in mind CR does not use professional painters, and/or professional painter's paint criteria, for judging the paints
They are simple, easy to replicate, tests based on what an uninformed (in painting and painting techniques) person may think is important in a paint

If professional painters and/or field results in less than perfect/ideal situations were used, the results would be very, very, different

Some respond to this that they are DIYers and don't need "professional" paint products
Trust me when I tell you that professionals and homeowners goals when doing a painting projects _are the same_
It's just that DIYers tend to greatly undervalue their own time, and will give up some quality of finish to say they did it themselves
(wouldn't you rather finish painting the bathroom by 2PM on Saturday then spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday doing it...AND have it look professional)


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## Handyman50

slickshift said:


> Again, please keep in mind CR does not use professional painters, and/or professional painter's paint criteria, for judging the paints
> They are simple, easy to replicate, tests based on what an uninformed (in painting and painting techniques) person may think is important in a paint
> 
> If professional painters and/or field results in less than perfect/ideal situations were used, the results would be very, very, different
> 
> Some respond to this that they are DIYers and don't need "professional" paint products
> Trust me when I tell you that professionals and homeowners goals when doing a painting projects _are the same_
> It's just that DIYers tend to greatly undervalue their own time, and will give up some quality of finish to say they did it themselves
> (wouldn't you rather finish painting the bathroom by 2PM on Saturday then spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday doing it...AND have it look professional)


My moto is, "if it looks like I did the work when I get done, I should have hired it done". Believe me when I say that my work does look professional.:yes: Agreed, it takes me longer to get professional results, but I do get them.


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## AdamB5000

This has me so depressed.

I recently purchased my first house and I'm redoing the interior. An old lady lived there and it was all pink/floral wallpaper.

I based my paint decision on Consumer Reports and I purchased Behr primer and paint for my living room, kitchen, bath and bedroom. I primed the kitchen and living room with tinted primer and have now put three coats of paint on top of the tinted primer in the kitchen. It's still not evently coated and I'll need at least a 4th coat of paint.

I could post the entire reply, but I emailed Behr and a rep. said that red (and various colors, mostly some deep reds) lack titanium dioxide (white pigments) and that is why they cover worse. I then talked to a buddy of mine who is a contractor and he recommended Benjamin Moore paint, going on to say that Behr isn't good at all. He said he felt bad that I purchased paint for four rooms before painting.

I'm now all depressed reading this, knowing I have two more cans of primer sitting in my house, two cans of taupe for the living area, a can of color for the back and the same for the bedroom. That's gotta be well over $100 of possible crap, according to what I'm reading.

Granted, like the guy from Behr said, the other colors certainly do have more white in them compared to the deep red of my kitchen, but I always take DIY'ers advice over anything (an objective, experienced voice).

Dang. Well, I'll put a 4th coat in the kitchen and I'll see how the light blue in the bedroom works out.



Sorry to bump this topic if it's old and had been beat to death, but I found it through a google search. I had to comment after reading the thread.


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## Handyman50

AdamB5000 said:


> This has me so depressed.
> 
> I recently purchased my first house and I'm redoing the interior. An old lady lived there and it was all pink/floral wallpaper.
> 
> I based my paint decision on Consumer Reports and I purchased Behr primer and paint for my living room, kitchen, bath and bedroom. I primed the kitchen and living room with tinted primer and have now put three coats of paint on top of the tinted primer in the kitchen. It's still not evently coated and I'll need at least a 4th coat of paint.
> 
> I could post the entire reply, but I emailed Behr and a rep. said that red (and various colors, mostly some deep reds) lack titanium dioxide (white pigments) and that is why they cover worse. I then talked to a buddy of mine who is a contractor and he recommended Benjamin Moore paint, going on to say that Behr isn't good at all. He said he felt bad that I purchased paint for four rooms before painting.
> 
> I'm now all depressed reading this, knowing I have two more cans of primer sitting in my house, two cans of taupe for the living area, a can of color for the back and the same for the bedroom. That's gotta be well over $100 of possible crap, according to what I'm reading.
> 
> Granted, like the guy from Behr said, the other colors certainly do have more white in them compared to the deep red of my kitchen, but I always take DIY'ers advice over anything (an objective, experienced voice).
> 
> Dang. Well, I'll put a 4th coat in the kitchen and I'll see how the light blue in the bedroom works out.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to bump this topic if it's old and had been beat to death, but I found it through a google search. I had to comment after reading the thread.


Sorry to hear about your problem, but as the rep said, red is the absolute worst color to use. Three coats to cover is not out of reason. I know that I will never use Behr paint again.

One saving grace, the other colors should be fine. I painted a bathroom with Behr paint. It was a light tan color . It covered white primer in one coat. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.:wink:


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## AdamB5000

Thanks, Handy. That'll be my one solace. 

Once the kitchen is coated I have the urge to sand it and put a final smooth coat on. After three coats I'm getting quite the orange peel look. It's fine when you're not looking for it or if you're 4+ feet away, but it's the kind of thing that might bug me for a while.



Live and learn, I guess.  I'll definitely try Benjamin Moore for my next project once my Behr stuff has run out. At least I can look forward to SOMETHING.


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## Handyman50

AdamB5000 said:


> Thanks, Handy. That'll be my one solace.
> 
> Once the kitchen is coated I have the urge to sand it and put a final smooth coat on. After three coats I'm getting quite the orange peel look. It's fine when you're not looking for it or if you're 4+ feet away, but it's the kind of thing that might bug me for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> Live and learn, I guess. I'll definitely try Benjamin Moore for my next project once my Behr stuff has run out. At least I can look forward to SOMETHING.


Glad to help.

Another great paint brand is "Pittsburgh". I recently helped paint a room for my daughter. They buy nothing but "Pitts" paint. From what I have found in my forty years plus of painting is, if you go over to touch-up a spot after most paints are dry, it will create a shiny spot or at least you can see it. Not with "Pitts" paints. You can not even tell that it was touched.:thumbsup: Sometimes this can save another coat of paint.

Now about your orange peel look. Another thing that I have learned in my years of DIY is that you are normally the only one who will notice a blemish. You will forget about it soon after the job is complete. I know, I am far too picky and it even works for me.


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## AdamB5000

Thanks again for the further info. I'm out in the country and the closest Benjamin Moore place is about an hour away. That's a lot of gas money.

I believe there is a Pittsburgh Paint place about 25 minutes away, right near where I attend church every week, so that'll help. I might try them out.


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## flashme18

i just painted the trim in a bedroom and bath with behr ultra white semi gloss because a customer wanted it. I was dumb enough to oblige. Absolute garbage. The paint does not cover properly. I put 2 thick coats on all the window frames, doors and door frames over a bone white color and it didnt cover. I will never allow a customer to talk me into using their brand of paint. If they want a color from Behr it is getting color matched at Benjamin Moore


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## rome778

i've never had paint biases before but i do now after i tried using this one. for some reason the coating wont come out even. but when i tried it at the store, it seemed ok. weird.


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## [email protected]

*I would not use BEHR Strains*

You can see my problem, and BEHR will not reply to my emails to how to fix the problem:
Photos - http://photos.donandmaryanne.com/gallery/5262924_jw7VQ#320301143_qApUL

:furious:


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## Brik

Here is a little tip if you for next time. If you have an area that wont cover with one gallon but will need two mix them together. Yea, you shouldn't need to do that but if you are really concerned then this will ensure no difference. Also, make sure you get same lot numbers.


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## Wisco

When they talk about the amount of solids and ti dioxide versus sand and the amount of water in a paint how does Behr standup? Personally Home Depot used to be a good store than they fired the people who knew their trades and hired cheap labor. If I want quick cheap 17.00 a gallon paint I will go to Menards and get PPG Grand Distinction and avoid The Devil. Otherwise I agree go to a paint store and buy their best stuff.


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## Handyman50

Wisco said:


> Personally Home Depot used to be a good store than they fired the people who knew their trades and hired cheap labor.


Amen, to this statement. I shopped in one of the first HD's built. Back then, they hired retired electricians for the electrical department and sheetrockers for that area. Now, there may be one person in the store who knows his/her job.


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## sweepee62

Hi, my name is Kim, and I just joined the group today. I must be one of lucky ones. I have never had a problem with Behr paint. In fact, that is the ONLY paint other than Sherwin Williams that I will use. I have had terrible trouble with the Olympic and Valspar brands sold at Lowe's. I guess everybody's experience is different. Has any had a GOOD experience with Lowe's brand??


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## chrisn

Never


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## slickshift

-Nope


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## strawberryhills4ever

*Glidden paint/gripper and Ralph Lauren Paint*

Well, I am just a homeowner who has tried several paints and the one that has been the best to date was Behr. Since I haven't tried SW or some other paints I may simply not know that I could do better. Here's my gripes/experience with some paints:

Ralph Lauren paint and primer. I had my contractor use RL in Hunter Red in satin on the bathroom he remodeled. The primer was tinted in the same color, also RL. It went over that green wallboard. Remodeler had to use 4 coats to get the color right. Now, the bathroom walls bleed a sticky substance. It looks like the walls are wet. I clean them but the sticky wet look comes back. I have never seen anything like it. The guys at HD had no clue why this should be happening.

This was in the Fall of 2004. I have stayed away from RL since and hope to repaint the bathroom this Fall. I was considering Behr Bathroom and Kitchen paint because of their NanoTechnology. Now I'm not sure after reading a review here on this line of Behr.

Glidden Evermore with gray Glidden Gripper. Last summer I painted my daughter's room in very deep, bright, matte colors, hence the recommended gray Gripper by HD. Two walls are a dark turquoise, two walls are a deep apple green. The paint is over the Gripper like a very thin glove of latex. It just peels off. Please note that I used two coats of paint over the primer and I read the directions carefully as to how long before I could paint and/or recoat.

I am now repairing a 12 inch x 6 inch area in the plaster wall. I patched and sanded. I could probably peel the whole wall. I am going to use the gripper again only so the colors stay the same. What should I do when I repaint the entire room? Will the primer stick to the thin layer of Glidden Evermore paint which means the new paint (whatever brand it is) will peel? Should I sand the entire room and get the Evermore off the walls (sounds labor intensive)?

Behr matte: I used Martini Olive which is a dark green, two coats over tinted primer. No problems but if I can find another paint that is easier to use and just as good I'm all for it!

I used Behr Ultra which should not need primer on our new 20x20 garage (glorified shed by TuffShed). I used Zinsser primer anyway in white and the Behr in yellow. When I tried going without the primer the yellow was awful instead of mellow so I continued with the Zinsser. Very hard to paint. The walls just sucked up the primer and paint.


___________________________________________________________


zorro84 said:


> I have had many years of experience with many different brands of paint. From SW, Ben Moore, Dunn-Edwards, etc. You could buy the most expensive brand of paint, but if you are going to use cheap roller covers and brushes, you should just give up while you still ahead.
> 
> Always spend the extra dollar on Purdy brushes and sheepskin roller covers. If you take care of them, they will last you a long time.
> 
> With regards to paint, use what you are comfortable with. I love Glidden paint out of Home Depot, but better yet, Ralph Lauren paint. Even in colors that I would not think would cover in one coat in RL, did. . . (though 2 thin coats are always better than one thick coat). RL has a GREAT color pallet and levels out really nice on the walls. Another added benefit is they have a primer (RL Deeptone Primer) that can be tinted to any color from any company. So if you plan on doing a accent wall, make a trip to The Home Depot and pick up a gallon. One of the reps for the company turned me on to it and no other company in the industry makes a primer like this. It will give you that red accent wall with one coat primer and one coat of paint!!!! WOW, I was blown away. I did 7 coats the last time I painted a red. RL paint is the was to go.
> 
> The RL rep showed me some test results from lab in Florida (Marshall Labs) and it beat out SW duration, Ben Moore, and a bunch of other at $40-$50 a gallon and it only cost me $27!!!!!! Great stuff.


----------



## Matthewt1970

Greetings all. First time poster here. I was a pro painter for 6 years straight and off and on for another 10 years.My personal preference will always be Benjamin Moore but I have no problem whatsoever with Sherwin Williams. I do however have a problem with Behr. I recently used i for the first time and the stuff sagged horribly. I spent close to an hour going back over the sag spots so the $7 a gallon I saved over the BM Regal Wall Satin went right out the window. Not to mention it really doesn't cover well AND THIS WAS THE FLAT PAINT!!. Not covering well means it lacks pigment. Sagging means it lacks binder. Well, since paint basically only consists of 2 ingredients besides water (Binder & Pigment) that means the crap has too much water. Behr paint really needs to be right next to the $10 low end Glidden stuff at Home Depot and priced the same. I hade the same luck with thier exterrior paint. I was painting over existing white trim. All bare wood got primed with Zinser white oil and the I used the Semi-gloss Ultra Pure White and even the places I put two coats on looked streaky. 2 Coats of white over white and it looks streaky.


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## AdamB5000

I've had mixed results with Behr and Benjamin Moore. I coated my living room with Behr interior flat. The short story is I'm a novice painter and I put a 2nd coat and mixed in another gallon. The color was ever so slightly off - just enough to notice. The corners and along the ceiling was a little different. 

I ran out of Behr at that point and decided to try BM. I picked up a gallon of the Regal interior flat. Unfortunately the guy promised they can match it perfectly but the color was definitely different, but I guess I shouldn't have expected a perfect match. Live and learn. I've had a lot of frustrating experience with my projects over the last year, but I am learning from it.

Basically I was unhappy with the evenness. I could see roller marks in the paint in the correct lighting, something I didn't notice with the Behr. It didn't seem to be as even or consistant. Add that with the "colder," grayer color and it left me somewhat saddened, but after all the coats I put in there I made the decision that I was DONE.



Moving onto the kitchen, I picked a nice, deep, rich red color in Behr interior eggshell. After a coat of tinted primer and four coats of red, I was out of paint and it still wasn't coated. I was close. I'd guess just another coat or two would have done it. I picked up a gallon of BM Regal interior eggshell to match the red and try that (same trip that I picked up the beige for the living room). Again the guy didn't match the red. It's milkier and rustier. Again I was disappointed with the color, but hey, it was close enough (I guess) and I wasn't about to get hung up on it. It was in fact a different color, but it coated much better. I just put one coat of it over the four red Behr coats and that did it. Granted the difference in pigments may have led to the coat, as it was not a good match, but it coated well. 



In the end I think I learned a lot about painting technique. I won't ever make the same mistakes again and I know better how to approach larger jobs. I'm not sure which brand I'd choose in the future. In hindsight, the biggest complaint I have overall is the Behr red was bubbling when I was putting my roller head through the tray. It was so thin that bubbles developed and even made for slightly inconsistencies on the wall. The other issue was the coating of the BM beige. I'm not sure if it was a freak thing, but it was a little troublesome.



Just some thoughts...


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## Matthewt1970

Matching paint is hit and miss and that was his bad to guarantee that it would be a perfect match.


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## SNC

I havent used very many types of paint.
Mostly Behr, it is thick and I thought this was good. thicker coverage less coats. 
I do have a lot of trouble with roller marks.
The trim usually turns out well but I ave trouble changing colors.

Not a painter, I hate it because I have trouble with the walls.


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

SNC said:


> I havent used very many types of paint.
> Mostly Behr, it is thick and I thought this was good. thicker coverage less coats....


That's funny. 

We have actually done side by side, wall to wall, & room to room comparisons with Behr and Premium paints like Sherwin Williams and Ben Moore. We have done this in front of Home Owners too.
We, and the Home Owners, have consistently found the Behr paints thinner than the premium paints, and requiring more applied coats to get the same coverage as the premium paints. 
That equaled = more paint + more labor.


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## SNC

Those other paint must be awful thick. I used Glidden and it was a lot thinner than Behr. I dont know if I would want any thicker, I think that is why I have roller mark problems.


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## slickshift

SNC said:


> Mostly Behr,
> 
> I do have a lot of trouble with roller marks.
> 
> The trim usually turns out well but I ave trouble changing colors.
> 
> I have trouble with the walls.




I'd suggest your problem and solution lies in the lines you have written
There's a lot of "trouble" and only one type of paint listed
(hint: the quality of paint is one of the three top reasons for roller marks)


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## SNC

slickshift said:


> I'd suggest your problem and solution lies in the lines you have written
> There's a lot of "trouble" and only one type of paint listed
> (hint: the quality of paint is one of the three top reasons for roller marks)


Are you more likley to get roller marks with thick or thinner paint?


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## slickshift

*Neither*

It's not the thickness or thinness, it's the other more subtle things like the leveling ability of the coating

Quality of roller sleeve and technique are the other two biggest factors
A poor quality roller sleeve can also leave marks
And the common mistake of trying to squeeze the paint out of the sleeve rather than just applying it also can be a major cause


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## jensenconstruction

Gotta agree with slickshift on this one. Poor technique and cheap rollers covers are the leading cause of roller marks.

I find most DIYers tend to apply to much pressure to the roller as they are painting, thus leaving roller marks. A good quality roller cover should require minimal pressure, just consistent, smooth strokes.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

MasterStrokes said:


> I’m not a contractor anymore. I’m employed by a decorator and run the painting department for the company. She has 5 other decorators in the company and they all know what to look for in the finish appearance. If I used Behr paints I know they’d see a few of the problems I mentioned above.


Well, you may be a great painter, but you're not putting yourself in the customer's shoes.

If, for example, you decided you wanted to learn to play the piano, would you go out and buy a new $15,000 Heintzman? No, you would shop around for a fairly inexpensive piano, wouldn't you? And, you really couldn't tell if that piano was in tune or not. So, what you'd be looking for was the best "value" in a piano that you could find. That is, the most piano for the fewest bucks.

Isn't it exactly the same thing with DIY'ers buying paint? They know squat about paint. So far as they're concerned, if the paint changes the wall to the right colour, that's really all that matters.

It's like that with everything. A roofer swinging a hammer all day long will soon learn to appreciate the subtle differences in balance and vibration between a $45 Estwing hammer and a $4 China Special. A judge at the Westminister Kennel Club dog show could tell the difference between a purebred beagle that was an excellent example of the characteristics of the breed, and one that was merely a purebred. So far as I'm concerned, any dog that doesn't take a dump on my carpet is a good dog.

You're failing to recognize that there are differences between paints that you can appreciate that non-painter's can't or, more probably, don't really care about. To them, if the paint is the right colour, that's about all that matters. A little difference in gloss here and there... so what? The fact that it spatters all over the floor... all paints spatter. And besides, we probably saved a few hundred doing the job ourselves with the helpful advice of the guy in the orange apron.

If Home Depot's customers are happy with the Behr paint they're buying, and part of the reason they're happy with that Behr paint is because it costs half of what better paints cost, then who are we to criticize Behr for not making better paint?


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## chrisn

So far as I'm concerned, any dog that doesn't take a dump on my carpet is a good dog.

I like it! :laughing:


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## DangerMouse

i usually go to the local biglots (or pic-n-save) and buy gallons of whatever for $5 a gallon as i usually only paint small areas....$20 to $50 a gallon is ridiculous IMHO.... and THEY usually have good brands too! simple and cheap... that's me....

DM


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## Matthewt1970

More times than not the Behr paint will be thick because it sat on a shelf for too long and people just grab them off the shelf and take them home. Any paint needs a good shake prior to use and the good paint stores will do that for you.


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## SNC

Matthewt1970 said:


> More times than not the Behr paint will be thick because it sat on a shelf for too long and people just grab them off the shelf and take them home. Any paint needs a good shake prior to use and the good paint stores will do that for you.


Mine is aways shaken. So far I have used only cutom colors.


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## Faron79

*Technique & Sleeves baby...*

Yep...
Slick & Jensen nailed this one!!!!

Even a "middling" paint can look good with a great-quality roller-sleeve AND good "Laying-off" technique/pressure.
...meaning...most DIY-ers (and some "Pros") are guilty of pushing paint too thin.

That's why the (GOOD) sleeves have a definate taper near the end.
This helps prevents a "squarer"-edge leaving a ridge...IF correct LIGHT pressure is used.

Faron


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## SNC

Faron79 said:


> Yep...
> Slick & Jensen nailed this one!!!!
> 
> That's why the (GOOD) sleeves have a definate taper near the end.
> This helps prevents a "squarer"-edge leaving a ridge...IF correct LIGHT pressure is used.
> 
> Faron


good tip, I will look for one of these.


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## Greytguy

How does Valspar paint stack up?


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## sirwired

Valspar does not have a rep here to be as unremittingly awful as Behr, but nothing to be excited about either. And the help at Lowes is pretty similar to the help at Home Depot: luck-of-the-draw, and mostly bad. There is no compelling reason I can think of to use anything but paint-store paint. If you can't afford the good stuff, the paint store has some cheap swill they can sell too. It's just as bad as the cheap swill at Big Box (Big Boxes sell nothing else), but at least the paint store is honest about it.

SirWired


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## Nestor_Kelebay

I think people in here should keep in mind that neither Behr nor Benjamin Moore nor Sherwin Williams nor Pratt & Lambert make any of the things they use to make their paints with. None of them make their own resins; they all buy them from companies that make plastics. None of them make their own pigments; they all buy them from chemical companies that specialize in different kinds of pigments. Similarily, none of them make any of their own additives.

So far as I know, the only company that makes it's own binder resins is ICI of Britain, which sells it's paints under the tradenames "CIL Dulux" in Canada and "Glidden" in both Canada and the US.

So, Behr could start making better paint simply by buying the same resins, pigments and additives from the same chemical companies that SW, BM and P&L do. The reason why they don't is a decision of Behr management. Behr knows their customers are primarily DIY'ers that only paint once every 15 years and will get their advice from Consumer Reports. If Behr's paints are of lesser quality, they will shine in the pages of Consumer Reports as long as the difference in price is commensurate. So, instead of striving to make the best paint, Behr management is striving to make the best value paint.

Chemical companies will always be pushing the paint companies to buy their latest and greatest resin, or pigment or mildewcide or rheology modifier or whatever. Of course the paint companies won't buy it unless they feel the increase in cost is justified by the increase in performance.

On company that bucked the trend was C2 Paints.
http://www.c2color.com/

C2 would buy these latest products from the chemical companies to use in their paints, and would then concentrate their advertising budget on comparing their paints to the best from SW, BM and P&L. Of course, their "independant lab tests" would confirmed that the C2 paints were higher hiding, more colourfast, self leveled better, dried harder, etc. etc. etc. than the SW, BM or P&L top line paint.

That's how C2 marketed their paints; as being better than the best SW, BM or P&L could offer. Their advertising concentrated on independant lab tests that compared C2 paints with the biggest names in the business. Obviously C2 didn't have any technical expertise to speak of, they simply relied on the technical expertise of the chemical companies to make better products.

I've noticed that they've stopped doing that. Their current advertising only says that they have 16 different colourants in their tint machines rather than the 12 that is standard in North America. And, their colour swatches are a whopping 12 inches by 16 inches in size, rather than 2 square inches or less you get with everyone else.

I only wanted to mention this so that people wouldn't get the idea that "Sherwin Williams" or "Benjamin Moore" or "Pratt & Lambert" make their own great paints. The truth is that these paint companies buy everything they put in their peints from chemical companies (except perhaps for the water and mineral spirits). It's those chemical companies that deserve the accolades for making the great binders, pigments and additives, not the paint companies for mixing and diluting as per instructions.

C2 paints is proof than ANY paint company, even Behr, can make a better paint than SW, BM or P&L; you just have to buy the latest and greatest products on offer from those chemical companies, despite the fact that the increase in bang won't justify the increase in bucks. You simply pay an independant lab to compare your paint with those on offer from BM, SW and P&L and you advertise those results. It makes you look like you have the best technical expertise.

C2 used to sell their paint out of about a half dozen locations in the USA. Now, they've enlisted a lot of independant paint retailers across North America to add C2 Paints to their product line, thereby increasing C2's market exposure significantly.

So, it's not the name on the can that makes the difference, it's the management that does. It's a management decision on what level of quality paint to make, not a limitation of each company's technical abilities. Any company wanting to make better paint simply has to buy better ingredients from their suppliers. Behr makes mediocre paints because they know their customers are DIY'ers that are much easier to please than professional painters.


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## chrisn

Nestor , Well said!:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## Greytguy

sirwired said:


> Valspar does not have a rep here to be as unremittingly awful as Behr, but nothing to be excited about either. And the help at Lowes is pretty similar to the help at Home Depot: luck-of-the-draw, and mostly bad. There is no compelling reason I can think of to use anything but paint-store paint. If you can't afford the good stuff, the paint store has some cheap swill they can sell too. It's just as bad as the cheap swill at Big Box (Big Boxes sell nothing else), but at least the paint store is honest about it.
> 
> SirWired


Thanks.


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## Faron79

*Wow!...Nestor!*

Hey Nestor (& all!),
C2's head Chemist was the long-time dude at P&L, b4 C2 lured him away years ago!
We're one of the 50+ Owner/Partner C2 U.S. retailers.

C2's colorants are made in Finland, by Tikkurilla...under the lable "CPS Color".
ONE QUART of HY colorant (High-strength Yellow), would equal a nice $$dinner-for-two.
(there's a YL, Low-strength Yellow too...along with 14 other colorants)

Some weeks, it's our top-selling brand, despite the $40+/gal price.
Once I used it...SORRY....ain't using anything else....:yes:

Here's the enormous chip-racks...










...and the $20,000 tinter set-up. 8 colorants on each side.









Faron


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## Greytguy

This all very interesting. Up until now, I thought that all paint was pretty much the same.


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## Tsu Dho Nimh

I may be a minority of one, but I have had no problems with Behr's flat enamel for application or coverage with brushes or rollers. It's stickier than some paints, for lack of a better word, but that's not a problem. 

Coverage is what I expect - varies depending on what color is going on the wall and the existing paint color. Pastel over pastel or off white has been 1-coat coverage. Pastel over medium blue was not quite 1-coat in the closet so the rest of the room will get a high-hide white primer. 
1 - I know how to cut in and feather edges with a brush. 
2 - I don't try to squeeze the last molecule of paint out of the roller. 
3 - I know how to feather the edges of a painted patch with a roller. 
4 - I don't overpaint or try to touch up areas that aren't completely dry. 

And Behr is one of the few that I can work with without getting a headache (Glidden is the other readily available one - was my favorite paint as a slumlord). There's something used in most of the "pro" paints that I am sensitive to. Frazee used in my workplace (one floor away, other end of the building) sent me home for two days until it cured.


----------



## DangerMouse

pseudonym.... cute.... i agree with you and greytguy though, i never gave it much thought when i bought paint for small jobs around the house. 
if it slopped on and covered in one coat, great! if not, do another! 

this being a DIY site, i feel i should add a few ways to save $$$ buying paint.

1: Habitat for Humanity (does not accept open can paint donations, well, they're not SUPPOSED to anyways)

2: S&W or BM dumpster diving (if you don't mind whatever colors they throw out)

3: S&W or BM or whoever paint store returns/overstocks/discontinued/backroom inventory (ask the manager! we decided on tile red-ish trim for $2 a gallon this way)

4: Pic n' Save or BigLots type stores for smaller quantities. usually around $5.00 a gallon!

Happy Painting!

DM


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## SNC

Never heard of C2 Who sells them? Doesnt look like a paint store with the BBQs on the shelf.


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## Bubbagump

They only have a very limited number of dealer's; like 70 nationwide and mostly in the North East. Too bad as with all the good I have heard, if they had a store in Ohio I would certainly give them a try.

http://www.c2color.com/store-locator/index.php

See if you are lucky enough to have a store within 1000 miles.


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## SNC

Bubbagump said:


> See if you are lucky enough to have a store within 1000 miles.


There are 3, 45 miles south in N Va.
Mat as well be 100 miles, any time you have to drive past DC its a bad dream.


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## chrisn

any time you have to drive past DC its a bad dream.

That is putting it mildly!:wink:


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## mjarema414

*Behr*

I've used Behr in almost every room in my house. It may not be the best paint to work with but I feel the rooms look really good. I used Sherwin Willams in the kitchen (Cashmere) and it looks good as well. I did some of the painting but my father in law did most of it. He is a Benjamin Moore fan but thought that Behr wasn't too bad to work with. I can understand why pro painters hate Behr but for painting on a budget, Behr is just fine. Just my 2 cents.


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## chrisn

that Behr wasn't too bad to work with



worth repeating 

"better to leave the walls bare than put Behr on the walls":laughing:


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## kimmieandtco

We used Behr paint before on our old house. Thought it was okay. Until we tried Sherwin Williams paint one day. Then we never went back to Behr. Not even close to being as good as Sherwin Williams. Would not hold up as long. Looked fine when we first used it but the area needed to be repainted within a couple of years. I would not waste my money on it again. Seems it was the cheapest route. We knew that too. Guess it goes to show that you get what you pay for. Definitely spend a little more and get a better paint.


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## rockport5

The prep is important for any house work. Bring me any paint i will make the house last long.
12 years i have paint houses with american finest , Behr , Glidden still look nice like almost new. (I have photos to prove my point and customers to call )

Nice prep 2 thick coats of primer and no matter what paint it will make the house look nice for years.

BM paint is crap the reason of the high cost is because of the enormous advertisement the company does to promote the products.

C2 is nice paint it holds vibrant colors more but again a nice work should be 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of finish which means any cheap paint will do JUST PERFECT for 6-10 years .


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## Scuba_Dave

I painted a Temp door to my addition yesterday
No sags I could see
Went back 1/2 an hour later & sags in several places
Only reason I used the Behr paint is its an old door that is only up until I insulate the room this winter
I figured I'd use the junk Behr paint rather then waste good paint on a Temp door


----------



## chrisn

Scuba_Dave said:


> I painted a Temp door to my addition yesterday
> No sags I could see
> Went back 1/2 an hour later & sags in several places
> Only reason I used the Behr paint is its an old door that is only up until I insulate the room this winter
> I figured I'd use the junk Behr paint rather then waste good paint on a Temp door


 
Duhhh, really??? who would have thought that?? :laughing:


----------



## Casey12081

I am no expert by any means, just an average DIY'er who figured that paint was paint. So I bought Behr to paint a bedroom and bathroom. First thing is the overpowering smell, and then multiple coats have to be applied. When it dries there are shiny spots, etc. 

After reading the site, I tried SW for the kitchen. I noticed a difference right away. Color was the same as the swatch, great coverage, and an even finish. 

For a difference of about $7, I saved time and was happy with it. I guess you get what you pay for?:thumbup:


----------



## BM Guy

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> I think people in here should keep in mind that neither Behr nor Benjamin Moore nor Sherwin Williams nor Pratt & Lambert make any of the things they use to make their paints with. None of them make their own resins; they all buy them from companies that make plastics. None of them make their own pigments; they all buy them from chemical companies that specialize in different kinds of pigments. Similarily, none of them make any of their own additives.
> 
> So far as I know, the only company that makes it's own binder resins is ICI of Britain, which sells it's paints under the tradenames "CIL Dulux" in Canada and "Glidden" in both Canada and the US.
> 
> So, Behr could start making better paint simply by buying the same resins, pigments and additives from the same chemical companies that SW, BM and P&L do. The reason why they don't is a decision of Behr management. Behr knows their customers are primarily DIY'ers that only paint once every 15 years and will get their advice from Consumer Reports. If Behr's paints are of lesser quality, they will shine in the pages of Consumer Reports as long as the difference in price is commensurate. So, instead of striving to make the best paint, Behr management is striving to make the best value paint.
> 
> Chemical companies will always be pushing the paint companies to buy their latest and greatest resin, or pigment or mildewcide or rheology modifier or whatever. Of course the paint companies won't buy it unless they feel the increase in cost is justified by the increase in performance.
> 
> On company that bucked the trend was C2 Paints.
> http://www.c2color.com/
> 
> C2 would buy these latest products from the chemical companies to use in their paints, and would then concentrate their advertising budget on comparing their paints to the best from SW, BM and P&L. Of course, their "independant lab tests" would confirmed that the C2 paints were higher hiding, more colourfast, self leveled better, dried harder, etc. etc. etc. than the SW, BM or P&L top line paint.
> 
> That's how C2 marketed their paints; as being better than the best SW, BM or P&L could offer. Their advertising concentrated on independant lab tests that compared C2 paints with the biggest names in the business. Obviously C2 didn't have any technical expertise to speak of, they simply relied on the technical expertise of the chemical companies to make better products.
> 
> I've noticed that they've stopped doing that. Their current advertising only says that they have 16 different colourants in their tint machines rather than the 12 that is standard in North America. And, their colour swatches are a whopping 12 inches by 16 inches in size, rather than 2 square inches or less you get with everyone else.
> 
> I only wanted to mention this so that people wouldn't get the idea that "Sherwin Williams" or "Benjamin Moore" or "Pratt & Lambert" make their own great paints. The truth is that these paint companies buy everything they put in their peints from chemical companies (except perhaps for the water and mineral spirits). It's those chemical companies that deserve the accolades for making the great binders, pigments and additives, not the paint companies for mixing and diluting as per instructions.
> 
> C2 paints is proof than ANY paint company, even Behr, can make a better paint than SW, BM or P&L; you just have to buy the latest and greatest products on offer from those chemical companies, despite the fact that the increase in bang won't justify the increase in bucks. You simply pay an independant lab to compare your paint with those on offer from BM, SW and P&L and you advertise those results. It makes you look like you have the best technical expertise.
> 
> C2 used to sell their paint out of about a half dozen locations in the USA. Now, they've enlisted a lot of independant paint retailers across North America to add C2 Paints to their product line, thereby increasing C2's market exposure significantly.
> 
> So, it's not the name on the can that makes the difference, it's the management that does. It's a management decision on what level of quality paint to make, not a limitation of each company's technical abilities. Any company wanting to make better paint simply has to buy better ingredients from their suppliers. Behr makes mediocre paints because they know their customers are DIY'ers that are much easier to please than professional painters.


Just want to correct some of the misinformation shared above. Benjamin Moore does indeed make their own proprietary resins and do make two proprietary colorant systems, one is a zero VOC waterborne system. So no, it's not the resin suppliers of the world that get credit for cutting edge products like Aura or Natura, it's Benjamin Moore.


----------



## paint_guy

slickshift said:


> I have used Behr paints and stains
> I won't use them again
> The best thing I can say about them is, if that is what the average homeowner thinks painting is like, then Behr has defininately got me jobs (Thanx B.)
> 
> I find it hard to work with and terrible at covering
> 
> Really, if you have been doing some painting lately and have sort of a handle on it, switch over to something good
> After you've done a small room with the good stuff, actually before you finish, you'll forget the Behr stuff
> It'll be quicker, nicer, better coverage...
> 
> I suggest going to a local paint shop and trying some Ben Moore for you're next project
> You won't be disappointed


 

forget the behr stuff? haha i think your forgetting who is number 1 buddy. behr is... i sell paint all day long and have performed many tests and behr is definitly the best :thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave

I'll never buy Behr again
I'll only use the remaining paint I have on Temp projects
It's junk paint 
I consider Behr #2 & I don't mean I'm counting


----------



## bofusmosby

You have to wonder if "paint_guy" works for behr.:laughing::laughing:

The truth be told, I used some of the Behr paint a few years ago, and it didn't hold up. The guy that works for Behr was supposed to forward my problems/complaints to the company, and they would get back with me. They never had the *alls to contact me. Go figure........


----------



## saggdevil

:laughing: _Wonder if "paint guy" has really ever painted walls_ with the behr crap or just a piece of sample board. Using it and selling it all day long are two entirely different things. Most diyers aren't going to take the time to research the product prior to use and many sellers bank on it.

One room with sagging paint was enough for me.


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## chrisn

forget the behr stuff? haha i think your forgetting who is number 1 buddy. behr is... i sell paint all day long and have performed many tests and behr is definitly the best:no:

That is truly a laughable statement:yes::laughing:


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## Matthewt1970

But It's already got the primer mixed in.....


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## chrisn

Matthewt1970 said:


> But It's already got the primer mixed in.....


Ya, well, he didn't say that


----------



## Knucklez

*Farrow and Ball*

you wanna know a secret? Farrow and Ball makes the best paint i have ever seen. this stuff is amazing. i hope you get a chance to try it.. its not sold everywhere. here is a link to a picture of the paint can. 

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/my-kitchen-reno-complete-remodel-concrete-countertop-19987/index9/

:thumbsup:


----------



## chrisn

Knucklez said:


> you wanna know a secret? Farrow and Ball makes the best paint i have ever seen. this stuff is amazing. i hope you get a chance to try it.. its not sold everywhere. here is a link to a picture of the paint can.
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/my-kitchen-reno-complete-remodel-concrete-countertop-19987/index9/
> 
> :thumbsup:


No big secret but it is very expensive.:yes:


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## LP828

Hi, sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been discussed, but I didn't have time to read the whole thread. We also chose Behr when we started our improvement projects a couple of years ago, because of the Consumer Reports rating. We were (are) novices, and the paint seemed fine to us. By the time we moved from the kitchen to the dining room, I had gotten acquainted with some of the various brand websites. I stuck with the Behr because they have this great interactive website that offers coordinating color suggestions. This was a great tool to get me thinking outside the box, so to speak. It gave me ideas for colors that I would never have thought of otherwise. I kind of like to figure things out for myself rather than getting advice about color. 

Anyway, we went on to paint our dining room mostly with Behr (we did one wall with a Ralph Lauren color), and that was two years ago, and it seems fine. Cleans well, looks even, etc. I only needed one coat (a mid green) after priming with tinted Kilz, so that really impressed me. 

I've also painted tons of foam board with paint samples using Ralph Lauren, Behr and Sherwin Williams (they sell the quarts for just $5). I did notice that the SW smelled stronger, took longer to dry and seemed different in texture. 

Anyway, it's kind of shocking to see all the negative comments about Behr. I thought I was using the best paint available because of that rating. I just bought the Behr paint today for the living room. We still have the bedrooms and family room to do, so maybe I'll get acquainted with the Benjamin Moore next.


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## chrisn

I thought I was using the best paint available because of that rating. I just bought the Behr paint today for the living room. We still have the bedrooms and family room to do, so maybe I'll get acquainted with the Benjamin Moore next. :thumbsup: This would be the best move you have made.


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## Knucklez

chrisn said:


> No big secret but it is very expensive.


compared to the other plan my wife had in mind, that paint was cheap. :yes:


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## chrisn

Knucklez said:


> compared to the other plan my wife had in mind, that paint was cheap. :yes:


 
Welllll, I certainly will not argue that!


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## JMDPainting

George Z said:


> Before everyone blames every paint out there.
> A good painter can make magic with average paint and a poor painter
> can do nothing right with top of the line paint.
> I have painted thousands of homes over twenty years and so far
> I haven't come across too many bad paints these days.
> Please compare apples to apples.
> Third line Benjamin Moore is not as good as first line Glidden.
> Top line Pittsburgh is better than third line S.W. etc.
> Nine times out of ten, it is not the paint, it is the painter...
> sorry for the cold truth.


Couldn't agree more. I've been painting for 28 years. Only once have I used Behr paint. I did a large interior job , 7 rooms walls and trim. I used Behr because the home owner bought the paint. I had no issues with this paint at all and I was plesantly suprised by the excellent coverage.

That said, I did not make the switch to Behr paints, but the one time I used it , it worked out just fine.


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## Matthewt1970

Hey, you spun the Behr roulette wheel and it landed on "Good Results" Here are the other spots it could have landed;

1. Too Thick
2. Saggs
3. White Didn't Cover White
4. Runs
5. Peels off Months Later (That's usually thier deck stain)


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## JMDPainting

Matthewt1970 said:


> Hey, you spun the Behr roulette wheel and it landed on "Good Results" Here are the other spots it could have landed;
> 
> 1. Too Thick
> 2. Saggs
> 3. White Didn't Cover White
> 4. Runs
> 5. Peels off Months Later (That's usually thier deck stain)



LOL! Glad I got the good results. I used this product:
http://www.behr.com/Behr/home#vgnex...00166310acRCRD;channel=PROJECT_CENTER;view=17

I did notice it was a bit thick so I switched from a 1/2" nap roller cover to a 3/8" and the product went on with no issues.

Like I said, you won't see me buying it, but I had no issues using it.


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## newbiepainter

*Miller paint?*



slickshift said:


> I have used Behr paints and stains
> I won't use them again
> The best thing I can say about them is, if that is what the average homeowner thinks painting is like, then Behr has defininately got me jobs (Thanx B.)
> 
> I find it hard to work with and terrible at covering
> 
> Really, if you have been doing some painting lately and have sort of a handle on it, switch over to something good
> After you've done a small room with the good stuff, actually before you finish, you'll forget the Behr stuff
> It'll be quicker, nicer, better coverage...
> 
> I suggest going to a local paint shop and trying some Ben Moore for you're next project
> You won't be disappointed


I also had poor coverage with Behr! Have always used BenMoore with great success. I love their color palette as well

I'm new to the Northwest and never have used Miller paint before. Does anyone have any experience with this paint?

Thanks!


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## Brandon19

i was told by an employee at the Home Depot yesterday that you can never paint latex over an oil primer, even Zinsser or Kilz! and that's why i buy my paint at benjamin moore.


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## saggdevil

Speaks volumes about the employee training program (assuming they have one). Seems to me a specialty department such as painting should have some mandatory training as well as a quality assurance program.

Then again, that employee was probably in the electrical, plumbing or maybe even lawncare the previous day.


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## user1007

saggdevil said:


> Then again, that employee was probably in the electrical, plumbing or maybe even lawncare the previous day.


Nope same day selling duct tape for a tricky speaker wire splicing project when the customer complained the flat washers (had to buy a bag with 20 because it was the smallest size they had) sold him the day before by the same person did not work with the PVC cement for the project. The room could have been painted in the 4 hours it took for someone to get to the paint counter!

Shop at paint stores and the local hardware store people so the box stores don't put them out of business and we are all stuck with buying cheap crappy paint and supplies in giant lots when we only need one!


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## chrisn

Brandon19 said:


> i was told by an employee at the Home Depot yesterday that you can never paint latex over an oil primer, even Zinsser or Kilz! and that's why i buy my paint at benjamin moore.


 
Idiots:furious::yes:


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## smileycjg

*Behr paints*

We used Behr paints for the first time however we have a terrible problem with roller streaks. We have applied 2 coats and it looks awful. We are using the eggshell enamel. We have always used Sherwin Williams Satin before and have never had a problem. Does anyone have any solutions?


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## user1007

smileycjg said:


> We used Behr paints for the first time however we have a terrible problem with roller streaks. We have applied 2 coats and it looks awful. We are using the eggshell enamel. We have always used Sherwin Williams Satin before and have never had a problem. Does anyone have any solutions?


Seems to me you provided your own with the second to the last sentence.


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## smileycjg

*Behr paint*

Going to Sherwin Williams first thing in morning to match paint!


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## saggdevil

I used lots of SW Superpaint and some Duration this year; the Superpaint is great. 

I used some Behr (given to me) in a very small bathroom. It is terrible. As much time spent chasing runs as actually painting the room. All runs/sags corrected - leave the room - return 1/2 hour later to find 4 or 5 sags on the walls. Room will have to be completely re-done at a later time. Once was enough - will never use it again.


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## LP828

So, I just opened my first can of Sherwin Williams paint (always used Behr). Forgive this stupid question, but I usually punch nail holes in that groove on top of the can so the paint doesn't puddle in there, but these cans look different. Am I supposed to put holes in that narrow groove or not? Also, what are these sags that everyone is talking about? I feel fortunate that I've used Behr in the past and not had sags, or maybe I have them and don't realize it?!


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## saggdevil

It looks like a horizontal run. Which will eventually have to be sanded down to smooth and repaint. 

I have a friend that loves Behr paint, but she has textured walls and probably wouldn't notice a run or sag. I have smooth walls and this area is in a small bathroom so it's quite noticeable. Oh well, that room will be re-done next year, lol.

My Superpaint cans look like all the other paint cans around here, the rim isn't any different. I don't put holes in the rim although I know of some that do.


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## chrisn

LP828 said:


> So, I just opened my first can of Sherwin Williams paint (always used Behr). Forgive this stupid question, but I usually punch nail holes in that groove on top of the can so the paint doesn't puddle in there, but these cans look different. Am I supposed to put holes in that narrow groove or not? Also, what are these sags that everyone is talking about? I feel fortunate that I've used Behr in the past and not had sags, or maybe I have them and don't realize it?!


 
You had( have) them.Look closely at the ceiling cut in around the room, they are there.:yes:


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## sofa kingdom

*Big Box Paint*

To all you Behr and Valspar haters...when is the last time you tried either brand and which product? I bet the cheapest, right? 

You can't trash a gallon of any brand's paint if you were too cheap to buy their premium line. And both Behr and Valspar have a great premium line, and their prices are much better than Ben Moore or S-W for the comparable quality product.

Just sayin...


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## Matthewt1970

Ok, how many times have you used it? I just used Behr Ultra Premium 3 weeks ago and it sagged all over the place. And you cannot campare BM and SW to Behr because thier cheapest line is 10 times better than Behr's best.


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## Scuba_Dave

Pay no attention to "sofa", he probably is a Behr or HD employee
He started a thread & posted the same exact thing 3x on 3 threads
If some people want to ignore the experiences stated in this thread that's fine


----------



## ragtopman

*Behr paint with primer*

I recently used the Behr Ultro Pemium Paint with built in primer. It worked great on unprimed wood (at least no problems so far) but if you are painting over existing paint or new pre-primed wood don't use this stuff. On preprimed wood it began to peel off after 6 months and over properly prepared painted surfaces it blistered after a couple of weeks. I scraped off the blisters and lightly sanded and put on another coat of the same paint only to have new blisters form between the first and second coat but no blisters formed over the the original blisters. I have given up and plan to repaint my shutters with Porter paint which I have nothing but success with over 25 years. I have had no problem with the Behr Stucco paint so far. I was worried that this too would blister which would be a major repaint job but after 1 year it has held up very well. Overall though, I don't plan on using Behr paint again.


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## chrisn

(at least no problems so far)

Don't hold your breath!:laughing:


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## ckstjamj22

I use behr all the time and I like it. It's reasonably thick but not too thick, doesn't drip much and covers well, particularly the new 'paint + primer'. Have also used BM in the past and while it's great stuff, it's not so great that the price differential leads me to the BM store instead of Home Depot. On every home forum I've ever visited, people trash any paint that doesn't cost $$$$$$$, but I have had good luck with Behr as well as the Valspar line from Lowes. I am, however, a skilled DIY painter so maybe it's a learning curve thing. I also am not really intersted in paint that lasts 20 years because I'll be tired of the color and repainting in 5-7 years anyway!


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## chrisn

dinkey said:


> I use behr all the time and I like it. It's reasonably thick but not too thick, doesn't drip much and covers well, particularly the new 'paint + primer'. Have also used BM in the past and while it's great stuff, it's not so great that the price differential leads me to the BM store instead of Home Depot. On every home forum I've ever visited, people trash any paint that doesn't cost $$$$$$$, but I have had good luck with Behr as well as the Valspar line from Lowes. I am, however, a skilled DIY painter so maybe it's a learning curve thing. I also am not really intersted in paint that lasts 20 years because I'll be tired of the color and repainting in 5-7 years anyway!


 
It is one thing to be a skilled DIY painter and another being a professional who makes their living painting.We have to use products that work at making us money and providing the customer with a quality job, you do not.We use the more expensive paint only because it is a better paint, no other reason that I can think of.If Behr or Valspar provided us with quality products we would use them. I am all about saving clients money when possible, the use of either of these products does not save anything as( at least for me) it takes much more time to apply properly, meaning it takes more time to either apply more coats or spending time chasing sags, runs, etc.


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## user1007

chrisn said:


> It is one thing to be a skilled DIY painter and another being a professional who makes their living painting.We have to use products that work at making us money and providing the customer with a quality job, you do not.We use the more expensive paint only because it is a better paint, no other reason that I can think of.If Behr or Valspar provided us with quality products we would use them. I am all about saving clients money when possible, the use of either of these products does not save anything as( at least for me) it takes much more time to apply properly, meaning it takes more time to either apply more coats or spending time chasing sags, runs, etc.


:thumbsup:


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## Sprayboy

I did the downstairs remodeling with Valspar & Behr. One coat of primer and two coats of finish. Very hard to cover decently. Looks passable at best. Doing the outside with Behr semi-gloss off-white. Very thick but sprays OK if you have the horsepower. Brushing runs back frequently. I probably wouldn't use either Valspar or Behr again. I'm not a pro but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.


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## Matthewt1970

A lot of pro's will opt for the mid level line (Promar200 - Pro/Super spec). It has good enough performance and below $25 a gallon. 

Wait till you do a job for someone or on your own home and have to go back a week later and sand out the run & sags and repaint. That will be the last time you will even preach about Behr.


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## chrisn

Matthewt1970 said:


> A lot of pro's will opt for the mid level line (Promar200 - Pro/Super spec). It has good enough performance and below $25 a gallon.
> 
> Wait till you do a job for someone or on your own home and have to go back a week later and sand out the run & sags and repaint. That will be the last time you will even preach about Behr.


Been there, done that, ONCE!:laughing:


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## buffdadjj

I was in the Depot the other day. They had a display comparing Behr paint with primer against their competitor. Showing how one coat of red behr covered better than the other brand. it did cover more but still looked like crap. I am not a professional painter but if that is what my walls would look like no thanks. I will stick to a regular paint store.

I was wondering if that was really one coat.If I were trying to sell paint I think I would want to make my display look halfway decent.


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## chrisn

That is why one puts on two coats, always.:yes:


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## user1007

chrisn said:


> That is why one puts on two coats, always.:yes:


Don't you read these posts Chris? The guys are saying it is Behr primer + paint in one so you don't need two coats. The primer goes on when you roll toward the ceiling and the paint part of it goes on with the return stroke down toward the floor. Or you can use the semi automatic application method. Just take off the lid and whirl the can around your head really fast. This method will give about the same look when it hits the wall as using Behr with conventional tools. See this URL for one application method and project perfectly suited to Behr combination primer and paint. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4jmEwW95Uk&NR=1

:devil2:


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## bofusmosby

sdsester said:


> See this URL for one application method and project perfectly suited to Behr combination primer and paint.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4jmEwW95Uk&NR=1
> 
> :devil2:


 
LMAO!:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chrisn

bofusmosby said:


> LMAO!:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


 
:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## ratherbefishin'

Be careful, there, sdsester, some people who buy Behr might take "whirl the can around your head" as valid instructions...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Brandon19

chrisn said:


> :thumbsup::thumbup:


sounds like a good idea to me. you could also adapt that idea to paint your room as this guy did 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hNkUyQaXwE


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## saggdevil

Actually one could just stand back and throw the paint on the wall and probably have close to the same results as taking the time using brushes and rollers. Even being a novice painter, once was enough for me with Behr, lol.


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## user1007

Brandon19 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hNkUyQaXwE


:thumbup: Paint Behr with a Bear. I like it. And it is always good to leave the wallpaper so you don't have to mess with the adhesive left behind.


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## saggdevil

Wallpaper painted with Behr....ya gotta love it, lol. :laughing: Does it get any better?


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## KAdams4458

I made a trip to the local Home Depot just the other day for a few painting supplies. (Tape, roller trays, etc.) I buy the important stuff, like brushes, rollers, and of course paint, elsewhere. While there, an employee in the paint section tried to drum up business for the Behr primer and paint in one. (I think they must be providing compensation for pushing the stuff.) I have used Behr "paint" in the past, but I had to admit to the guy that I have not tried their new primer and paint in one, so on he went with a sales pitch for the stuff.

To make a long story short, after a five minute conversation, I seem to have convinced the sales associate of just how gimmicky the concept of primer and paint in one is, and to try BM paint for himself. :huh: How'd I do that?

It's amazing what kind of results you get when you share facts instead of nonsense BS marketing. (Or maybe I suddenly figured out that whole Jedi mind trick thing.) :laughing:


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## chrisn

KAdams4458 said:


> I made a trip to the local Home Depot just the other day for a few painting supplies. (Tape, roller trays, etc.) I buy the important stuff, like brushes, rollers, and of course paint, elsewhere. While there, an employee in the paint section tried to drum up business for the Behr primer and paint in one. (I think they must be providing compensation for pushing the stuff.) I have used Behr "paint" in the past, but I had to admit to the guy that I have not tried their new primer and paint in one, so on he went with a sales pitch for the stuff.
> 
> To make a long story short, after a five minute conversation, I seem to have convinced the sales associate of just how gimmicky the concept of primer and paint in one is, and to try BM paint for himself. :huh: How'd I do that?
> 
> It's amazing what kind of results you get when you share facts instead of nonsense BS marketing. (Or maybe I suddenly figured out that whole Jedi mind trick thing.) :laughing:


 
Good job:thumbsup:


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## DIYmo

*Don't waste money on Behr*
Last time I used Behr paints was in the mid eighties, and I said, "Never again". Looks like they haven't improved the product since. If you're buying at Home Depot, the Glidden paint is much better and less expensive than Behr.
We had off-white woodwork that we primed and then painted with white Behr semigloss. It took three coats, and still looked bad, and was very streaky to work with. I have professional brushes that have never failed me, but they were squawking when dipped in a can of Behr.
I'm afraid to paint over it, because primer probably won't even stick. Bad stuff, waste of good money.


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## KAdams4458

DIYmo said:


> *Don't waste money on Behr*
> Last time I used Behr paints was in the mid eighties, and I said, "Never again". Looks like they haven't improved the product since. If you're buying at Home Depot, the Glidden paint is much better and less expensive than Behr.
> We had off-white woodwork that we primed and then painted with white Behr semigloss. It took three coats, and still looked bad, and was very streaky to work with. I have professional brushes that have never failed me, but they were squawking when dipped in a can of Behr.
> I'm afraid to paint over it, because primer probably won't even stick. Bad stuff, waste of good money.



For what it's worth, I just slapped some BM waterbourn satin Impervo over a nasty runny coat of Behr that the previous owner had applied to the millwork in our dining room. It definitely stuck to the Behr with no problems. The question is, is the Behr stuck to the wood? :laughing:


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## NailedIt

I've been buying paint exclusively through S-W since ever contracting my first remodel. I buy their paint because it's what my painters like to work with (they get free shirts, hats, etc...), the brand recognition, and because of the discount, I make some money on mark-up. However, I've used Behr paint and I have gotten good coverage and finish out of it.


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## chrisn

However, I've used Behr paint and I have gotten good coverage and finish out of it. 

Guess that depends on your definition of "good coverage" and "finish":laughing:


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## ProPainter

Most of the paints made by Behr are crap. I have painted with them many times (when the customer insists on buying the paint themselves) and have found the coverage to be horrible, the consistency thin, and the colors to be inaccurate. Several times I have had the paint literally run back down the walls after I applied it ( and no it's not my painting style as this never happens with higher quality paints). Behr only gets good ratings from consumer reports because they have absolutely no clue how to test a paint product and much of their rating is based on price. Behr is probably the reason so many home owners refuse to paint themselves anymore and hire professionals. 
_link removed_
_If you wish to advertise on this site contact an Adminstrator_
_Thank you_


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## Sprayboy

NailedIt said:


> I've been buying paint exclusively through S-W since ever contracting my first remodel. I buy their paint because it's what my painters like to work with (they get free shirts, hats, etc...), the brand recognition, and because of the discount, I make some money on mark-up. However, I've used Behr paint and I have gotten good coverage and finish out of it.


Yea, I have gotten decent results using Zinsser to prime and Behr Premium as a finish coat. However, it's just for me and I won't be in this house more than 3 years before I side it. Zinsser 2 oil-based primer. Mmmmmmmmm good! :thumbup:


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## saggdevil

Maybe Webster redefined "good", ya think???


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## PTP WX

*Bear (Behr) Colors*

I have been laughing at this whole thread this evening. I haven't worked as a painter for over a decade, but when I did we used Pittsburgh Ultra / GD and S W. 
Two years ago my wife decided to paint the workout room a dark orange / fire red. She bought Behr and had it 'in house' for the project. I used a tinted primer, and then proceeded to paint 3 walls in a 6 x 8 room. Then painted them again, and again. Spots were still so thin I could see through to the primer. I went in to HD and complained. The paint guy at HD gave me a phone number for Behr paints. When I called them they said there was an issue with their Red pigments and they were aware of the problem. They offered me a coupon for 2 free gallons of Behr paint. I told them to keep the coupons, I wouldn't be using their paint anymore. The next weekend I painted one coat of SW and with 1 primer coat and 3 coats of Behr underneath it...... I got one coat coverage on a fire red! LOL

So I guess my question for the painters that find Behr 'workable' is have you had success with any darker colors or was it mainly whites and light colors?


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## Sprayboy

PTP WX said:


> I have been laughing at this whole thread this evening. I haven't worked as a painter for over a decade, but when I did we used Pittsburgh Ultra / GD and S W.
> Two years ago my wife decided to paint the workout room a dark orange / fire red. She bought Behr and had it 'in house' for the project. I used a tinted primer, and then proceeded to paint 3 walls in a 6 x 8 room. Then painted them again, and again. Spots were still so thin I could see through to the primer. I went in to HD and complained. The paint guy at HD gave me a phone number for Behr paints. When I called them they said there was an issue with their Red pigments and they were aware of the problem. They offered me a coupon for 2 free gallons of Behr paint. I told them to keep the coupons, I wouldn't be using their paint anymore. The next weekend I painted one coat of SW and with 1 primer coat and 3 coats of Behr underneath it...... I got one coat coverage on a fire red! LOL
> 
> So I guess my question for the painters that find Behr 'workable' is have you had success with any darker colors or was it mainly whites and light colors?


Exactly. I'm shooting an extremely light grey. The only other Behr I've used was a very light creamy brown. Your are right that the coverage is poor. I normally would recommend buying Promar or BM. Promar blows Behr away and that really isn't SW's best either. :thumbsup:


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## AggieMom

Wish I had searched for this site earlier. Here's what i've done. TSP'd stained wood, sanded, primed with Behr enamel sealer and primer (junk), painted with Behr ultra pure enamel. I now need to put my 3rd coat on. I'm not a pro, but I have painted the interior of my house every 4-5 years (my choice--changing colors). I've never used Behr before and will NEVER use it again. The primer is horrible, the paint sucks. DO NOT BUY it. Everything I've tried to do with the Behr requires a minimum of 3 coats. The primer doesn't stick very well to anything but your brushes and rollers--it's sticks to them worse than the mud a used to texture the walls.


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## Kevin M.

PTP WX said:


> * Then painted them again, and again.* LOL
> 
> So I guess my question for the painters that find Behr 'workable' is have you had success with any darker colors or was it mainly whites and light colors?


I painted a laundry room for my friend with a Behr red color, five coats later it was still a bit shaky. He asked me if I new what I was doing? LOL!! 

On the other hand, I recently re-painted a residential complete interior with bright red and blue walls throughout. Valspar (Lowes) covered about 90% with one coat (earthtone tan.) I've yet to get a one coat coverage out of Behr, even using a flat over flat with only a minor color difference.

The best quality paint I have encountered recently is Sherwin Williams top brand. The tinted primer and flat topcoat were amazing. The paint was a satin, but the sheen was more on the lines of a flat. A bit pricy, but worth it

My ratings

1 Sherwin Williams :thumbsup:
2 Valspar :thumbsup:

Behr-NO,NOT,NYNE,NADA :no: :no: :no::no::no::no:


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## Rellie25

Ohhh ... you guys saved my bacon here. I was just about to do a color test on a 6' length of wall with behr with built in primer. Ain't happening. I hate to paint (I'd rather wall paper PIPES than paint!) I'm painting over old paneling (it's wood, but old wood) i can't afford to remove it (room is 11.5 x 33 .. gotta love antique colonials!) so I'm going to cover it with a "sunshine" yellow that will brighten it. I'll bite the bullet and tsp, rinse, prime and paint (how DO you get into the grooves of the paneling?) and go with the good stuff. 3 windows 4 doorways ... UGH ... I can do this I can do this I can do this!


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## shapeshifter

Having completed a paint job on 90% of the interior of the house, my hands-down favorite paint is Sherwin-Williams. We put a ceiling on our patio cover to improve the view and for this we used ValSpar exterior latex with a primer. I was impressed. It completely covered fresh wood in two coats, which I would think would be the number of normal coats. So far it's holding up well, easy to clean and looks great.

As for painting the paneling, we applied a liquid sander with an old sponge floor mop, primed and then painted. It was cheap paneling and probably some sort of pressed stuff. If you use a pretty thick roller, it should get into the groves fairly easily, unless they are really deep. Then, I would paint out the grooves first, then go back and roll. Good luck.


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## Lowriderchic

*I bought Paint today!!*

:thumbup: Greeting to everyone!! I am new here and I just want to say that you guys Rock! I have been looking at paint, reading about paint, all up in consumer reports, for about a month. Me and hubby are remodling the kitchen and I am the paint gitter. Well I was leaning towards Behr paint and after reading what you guys had to say about it I have chose wisely I think...BenMoore!!....whoo hoo! I really enjoyed reading all of the comments about Behr and It was very helpful to me. Thanks to everyone


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## JMDPainting

George Z said:


> Before everyone blames every paint out there.
> A good painter can make magic with average paint and a poor painter
> can do nothing right with top of the line paint.
> I have painted thousands of homes over twenty years and so far
> I haven't come across too many bad paints these days.
> Please compare apples to apples.
> Third line Benjamin Moore is not as good as first line Glidden.
> Top line Pittsburgh is better than third line S.W. etc.
> Nine times out of ten, it is not the paint, it is the painter...
> sorry for the cold truth.


:thumbup::clap:


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## big dog

I Love BEHR paint as it goes on my wallls like nothing else.... Easy to apply with deep/rich color....listen to the paint experts at home depot.


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## Scuba_Dave

Behr is one of the worst, if not THE worst paints I have ever used


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## Scuba_Dave

JMDPainting said:


> :thumbup::clap:


and you had to go all the way back to 2005 to get that qoute :laughing:


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## bofusmosby

big dog said:


> I Love BEHR paint as it goes on my wallls like nothing else.... Easy to apply with deep/rich color....listen to the paint experts at home depot.


 
You mean that Home Depot actually has paint "Experts"? :laughing::laughing:


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## chrisn

bofusmosby said:


> You mean that Home Depot actually has paint "Experts"? :laughing::laughing:


There are certainly none in the paint department:no:


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## Warrior54470

*BEHR paint products overrated*

The makers of BEHR paints have some work to do on coverage issues.


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## chrisn

Warrior54470 said:


> The makers of BEHR paints have some work to do on coverage issues.


 


REALLY?????:laughing:


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## fixnbreak

i just had to add my 5 cents as a non-pro.

I used Behr (because it was cheap & didn't know any better) to paint my living room walls dark red years ago, I bought the primer etc.....it took gallons of paint to get the hue I wanted and even then the color wasn't right.

After several years of having lived with the red living room of hell decided to change to a lighter yellow color and had to be convinced to splurge on BJ Moore. (didn't see the point, paint is paint)

No primer, two coats and it looks fantastic, I din't realize that there was such a difference in paint quality & ease of applying.

I noticed for me anyways it was easier to apply. Yes I like saving money but I don't think that applies when you want good coverage, paint flows easily..Behr i wouldnt take it even if its free, well if its free might take it


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## chrisn

Behr i wouldnt take it even if its free, well if its free might take it :no::no::laughing:

I would not paint my dog house with it, the dog would know.:whistling2:


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## Scuba_Dave

fixnbreak said:


> ..Behr i wouldnt take it even if its free, well if its free might take it


Of course you take it for free
HD has a very easy return policy :wink:


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## Sprayboy

There is nothing wrong with Behr paint. It costs 1/2 as much as premium paint. So what if you need twice as much to cover. 2 x 1/2 = 1 See! The math works perfectly! :jester:


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## Rellie25

*You must not put much value on your time!!! LOL*

I never would have believed the response to the original question I had. suffice it to say ... I ain't gonna be usin Behr anytime soon! I'll go with BM or SW and do it right the first time. I thank you all for your comments ... So, first ceiling, then trim ... then walls. Okay ... I confess ... I'm a major league rookie.


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## Plaster Ayn

There are about 3 plants that make all paint. Now each supplier could have certain polymers or additives in them, but basically they are all the same.

As for your red. Red is a hard color to get right and any time you use a dark color it must go in a clear base which will mean more than one coat.

Picture a glass of milk and a glass of water. If you drop red food coloring in the milk it will only get to pink, but its an opaque pink. If you drop red food coloring into water it look red but you can see right through it.
Paint is the same way.


----------



## chrisn

Plaster Ayn said:


> There are about 3 plants that make all paint. Now each supplier could have certain polymers or additives in them, but basically they are all the same.
> 
> As for your red. Red is a hard color to get right and any time you use a dark color it must go in a clear base which will mean more than one coat.
> 
> Picture a glass of milk and a glass of water. If you drop red food coloring in the milk it will only get to pink, but its an opaque pink. If you drop red food coloring into water it look red but you can see right through it.
> Paint is the same way.


 
Not necessairly true anymore, some of the top of the line paints have deep base instead of clear.


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## slickshift

Sprayboy said:


> There is nothing wrong with Behr paint. It costs 1/2 as much as premium paint. So what if you need twice as much to cover. 2 x 1/2 = 1 See! The math works perfectly! :jester:


I value my time, personal or professional, way too much for that to be an "argument for" that has any merit whatsoever

Again, (most) DIYers and (hopefully all) Pros, realistically, have the same goals:
To get the project done in a quality manner (professional-looking) with as little (of time/cost-consuming) hassle as possible

Behr may _occasionally_ result in the desired effect (or most often be "
acceptable" by a DIYer)
However, it is not my choice for the "guaranteed" desired effect, and I can't recommend it
...by any means in any area


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## saggdevil

So very well stated!!


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## chrisn

saggdevil said:


> So very well stated!!


 :thumbsup:


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## rjh

athanman said:


> I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints.
> 
> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.
> 
> So if you have any reviews please share them.


 .
I have a stucco house in Tucson that i wanted to repaint. So i went to Home Depot & bought Behr exterior stucco paint that was tinted a great shade of brown. 1 1/2 years later, the paint faded badly and morphed into a putrid shade of purple. Since last October, i've been writing my complaints to the Home depot Consumer Complaint site and even to the store manager. I can't find out where to write / email the Behr people?..Anyway, To date i have had no response from anyone, not even a post card, which makes me even madder that getting stuck with the lousy paint they sold me. signed, shudda went to Sherwin Williams!!


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## saggdevil

WOW....how about that money-back guarantee, lol!! They have a good marketing department.


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## rjh

saggdevil said:


> WOW....how about that money-back guarantee, lol!! They have a good marketing department.


 .
..money back guarantee??..I think they're all hiding under the desk on this one - hoping that I'll just go away (not)... The money for the 35 or so gallons of ill-faded paint i bought "pales" in comparison to the 80+ man hours it took me to do the painting!!..The thought of having to do this again in such a short period of time (to get rid of the ugly morphed color) is more daunting than the money I wasted!
..I'd love to get Home depot to come out & just do the repainting!..I'd even supply them the (sherwin williams) paint & buy 'em their lunch!!


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## fixnbreak

rjhrjt said:


> .
> I have a stucco house in Tucson that i wanted to repaint. So i went to Home Depot & bought Behr exterior stucco paint that was tinted a great shade of brown. 1 1/2 years later, the paint faded badly and morphed into a putrid shade of purple. Since last October, i've been writing my complaints to the Home depot Consumer Complaint site and even to the store manager. I can't find out where to write / email the Behr people?..Anyway, To date i have had no response from anyone, not even a post card, which makes me even madder that getting stuck with the lousy paint they sold me. signed, shudda went to Sherwin Williams!!


Corporate headquarters
BEHR Process Corporation
3400 W. Segerstrom Ave.
Santa Ana, CA 92704
Phone: 714-545-7101
Fax: 714-241-1002

Technical Assistance
Mon. - Fri., 5:00 am to 8:00 pm PST
Sat. - Sun., 6:00 am to 5:00 pm PST
1-800-854-0133 ext. 2

Tech. Assistance canada
Mon. - Fri., 7:00 am to 4:30 pm MST
Sat., 9:00 am to 1:00 pm MST
Sun., Closed
1-800-661-1591


or you can goonline at behr.com and click on contact us & send them an email. Hope it helps!!


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## Rellie25

*Money back guarantee ... if you can find them*

If all else fails ... contact your Attorney General's office. They help with consumer issues. That's a major corporation that is potential avoiding their guarantee. They would want to know about that. Rest assurred that if they dodge the AGs office ... it won't be pretty for them.

:


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## Sprayboy

rjhrjt said:


> .
> ..money back guarantee??..I think they're all hiding under the desk on this one - hoping that I'll just go away (not)... The money for the 35 or so gallons of ill-faded paint i bought "pales" in comparison to the 80+ man hours it took me to do the painting!!..The thought of having to do this again in such a short period of time (to get rid of the ugly morphed color) is more daunting than the money I wasted!
> ..I'd love to get Home depot to come out & just do the repainting!..I'd even supply them the (sherwin williams) paint & buy 'em their lunch!!


Sometimes you have to play dirty! Have some signs made up or make them up saying, "Behr Paints RUINED my home!" "Look at THIS! From brown to PURPLE"
Put them in front of your house and take some pictures of cars stopping to gawk. Send them off the the corporate folks listed in the previous post. They should pay to have your whole house repainted. You are out time and money both here. You can also call your TV station is they have a consumer help feature and maybe even get it on the tube.


----------



## user1007

rjhrjt said:


> .
> I have a stucco house in Tucson that i wanted to repaint. So i went to Home Depot & bought Behr exterior stucco paint that was tinted a great shade of brown. 1 1/2 years later, the paint faded badly and morphed into a putrid shade of purple. Since last October, i've been writing my complaints to the Home depot Consumer Complaint site and even to the store manager. I can't find out where to write / email the Behr people?..Anyway, To date i have had no response from anyone, not even a post card, which makes me even madder that getting stuck with the lousy paint they sold me. signed, shudda went to Sherwin Williams!!


Used to be a fairly high end PR exec. Still part of the brotherhood and sisterhood I suspect. Find the PR department and you will get at least a response.


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## saggdevil

quite lovely, lol....think they'll be going for it :no::no::no:


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## freeswimmin

*Behr's lost another one...*

Not a fan of HD, but I've always had pretty good success with Behr Premium LATEX paints on interior applications, both in commercial and residential applications, and they used to have an opaque exterior stain that i'd swear by (i think it was too good, i.e.toxic, so california made them quit making it:laughing: ). BUT.....

I just tried to finish up a job and used Behr oil-base for the first time ever for the trim (in the past have ALWAYS used BM). *IT IS TERRIBLE!!!* Doesn't 'flow', no leveling, pulls, etc... I allowed 24 hrs between coats and proceeded with the second coat, thinking it would go on smoother, but instead the first coat ended up 'crackling'; which would be great if the client wanted a faux finish:whistling2:. So you're thinking maybe i just need to thin it a bit. For thinning you should always follow manufacturer's recommendation as they use different additives that work better with different solvents. Let's see Behr recommends.... "DO NOT THIN". Good thing i wasn't trying to spray it!!! Guess they think their paint is just perfect the way it is; I think it sucks ! 

Now, i get to eat my time to sand crown, base, doors casing, windows, then clean, and repaint two coats, with the additional cost for a gallon of BM... it's a small job so it's not too much money or time, but since it's a small job there's no wiggle room or profit and no way to 'cover it'. :furious:


----------



## a new DIY-er

After reading this thread, I returned the unopen white Behr paint I'd gotten for a cabinet and trim. I went to the Sherwin Williams store and bought some good stuff. So far I like it, but I just got it yesterday and finished the 2nd coat a few minutes ago.

Just curious:
We have no Benjamin Moore paint dealer.

We have the Sherwin Williams, a Pittsburgh Paints and a Porter Paints. How do PPG and Porter compare to the SW?


----------



## rjh

a new DIY-er said:


> After reading this thread, I returned the unopen white Behr paint I'd gotten for a cabinet and trim. I went to the Sherwin Williams store and bought some good stuff. So far I like it, but I just got it yesterday and finished the 2nd coat a few minutes ago.
> 
> Just curious:
> We have no Benjamin Moore paint dealer.
> 
> We have the Sherwin Williams, a Pittsburgh Paints and a Porter Paints. How do PPG and Porter compare to the SW?


 .
Sorry, i'm not a paint pro - which is why i was stupid enough to buy Behr paint for my house in the 1st place. Hence i'm not the guy to give you a valid answer....A 20 year experienced paint pro did tell me that SW & BM paints are the two best paints on the market and doesn't pay to go cheeep with anything else, i.e., inexpensive paint = nothing but grief & aggravation!..


----------



## freeswimmin

a new DIY-er said:


> After reading this thread, I returned the unopen white Behr paint I'd gotten for a cabinet and trim. I went to the Sherwin Williams store and bought some good stuff. So far I like it, but I just got it yesterday and finished the 2nd coat a few minutes ago.
> 
> Just curious:
> We have no Benjamin Moore paint dealer.
> 
> We have the Sherwin Williams, a Pittsburgh Paints and a Porter Paints. How do PPG and Porter compare to the SW?


Check your local Ace Hardware:wink:... that's were I can get BM locally (bridge is out so it's easier for me to get to HD now which is why i used the Behr oil-based for the first time ever... and last!!! :wallbash


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## Sprayboy

How in God's name does oil/alkyd base paint crackle if the substrate is good? I've never seen that happen.


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## Kevin M.

freeswimmin said:


> Check your local Ace Hardware:wink:... that's were I can get BM locally (
> 
> 
> 
> *bridge is out*
> 
> 
> 
> so it's easier for me to get to HD now which is why i used the Behr oil-based for the first time ever... and last!!! :wallbash
Click to expand...

If the BM dealer is on the other side of the bridge, I would swim across the gator infested swamp and risk the consequences,  rather than jump in my air conditioned car and drive over to the box store and purchase the aforementioned crappy paint. :yes:

kevin


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## freeswimmin

i have NO idea... new one on me too... but so is this paint. It was a new piece of poplar window sill, sanded and primed, thoroughly dried. First coat went on a little thick and didn't level out totally smooth, but i wrote it off to just being first coat over primer. Let it cure 24 hrs, light sanded to knock down the worst of the brush streaks and a couple of little air bubbles, dusted it with cheesecloth and painted second coat (finished up with light 'tipping' as it wasn't leveing out very well). Then within about 15 minutes 'crackle' appeared under the topcoat... and i don't mean lines, i mean CRACKLE... i could've done a green rub on it and had a perfect 'mossy, aged' faux finish.:laughing:  Unfortunately, client is looking for a glossy smooth finish.

This was the only large horizontal and flat surface and the only place it occured... other new/primed wood trim didn't crackle, but terrible streaking and no leveling :wallbash:

you tell me, any ideas???:confused1:


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## Sprayboy

The paint was frozen either in the warehouse or in transit. After it thawed you got some component separation. That's my best guess. :huh:


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## freeswimmin

you may be on to something... all the other new wood had received primer and base coat prior to the long cold snap we had down here. The initial base coat wasn't perfect but did level out better than the final top coat throughout. Window sill was primed but not painted, and received base and top coats after the cold.

While it never actually got cold enough to freeze water (thank god for S. FL), and i mixed the paint when i used it again, it could've been cold enough for long enough to affect some binary properties of the paint.:icon_confused:
that cold for that long is foreign to me... and i haven't ever had this kinda problem with a paint... of course, they say we haven't had this kinda cold snap since the 50's :wheelchair:


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## Sprayboy

Next time you might try the Behr All-in-One primer/paint. According to the Behr rep the primer is a little thinner than the top coat. This causes it to rise to the top half of the can so when you start painting you are putting on primer. When you get to the bottom half of the can you can start putting on the top coat. Pretty ingenious, huh? :laughing:


----------



## user1007

Sprayboy said:


> Next time you might try the Behr All-in-One primer/paint. According to the Behr rep the primer is a little thinner than the top coat. This causes it to rise to the top half of the can so when you start painting you are putting on primer. When you get to the bottom half of the can you can start putting on the top coat. Pretty ingenious, huh? :laughing:


It is. But I must say even Sherwin Williams tries to sell the same primer/paint combo concept and it drives me bonkers because they haven't a clue as to what they are doing. Like my Benjamin Moore dealer they don't even think twice about sticking cans on the shaker and you cannot do that with the combo products for the reasons you mention. If you mix the layers you end up having to put on a real primer and two finish coats.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## freeswimmin

Sprayboy said:


> Next time you might try the Behr All-in-One primer/paint. According to the Behr rep the primer is a little thinner than the top coat. This causes it to rise to the top half of the can so when you start painting you are putting on primer. When you get to the bottom half of the can you can start putting on the top coat. Pretty ingenious, huh? :laughing:


Where is that 'flip off' emoticon???:laughing:
yeah. what a joke. Just hope your painting project requires exactly the top half to prime and the left-overs for a top coat:icon_rolleyes:.

I actually had a client that wanted to save money and paint everything themselves use the All-in-one... needless to say, I took way too much pride in my work and spent too much time getting trim joints and corners beautiful, and all the caulking perfect... they ended up buggering everthing up with their All-in-One paint job and i could've hacked up the job and saved a lot of time for the same end result.

I'm definitely not ever using Behr products again.:no: Still gotta go straighten out this paint fiasco tomorrow... working for free the next two days!:furious:


----------



## brons2

Wow read all 7 pages of this thread (my default view is 50 posts per page).

I'd like to say that, I doubt that some of you arrogant* pros have used truly awful paint. Monarch comes to mind, my first two houses were painted with it. It's cheap, but it has the worst coverage I have ever seen. It has problems covering clean walls that were originally painted the exact same color with Monarch paint...

Yes, I agree that BM &SW are top of the line, but for most people Behr is not that bad. I'd rate it middle of the road. If you are expecting museum like paint results then you should definitely swallow the extra costs and use BM/SW. 

After all, a lot of suburban America lives in tract home developments where the build quality is astonishingly poor, and people take it. Why would they be that picky about their paint?

(*a lot of the posts on this thread are pure piling on...you know who you are)


----------



## brons2

Furthermore, I was challenged in another thread that the bit about Behr being the top selling paint in America was a claim straight from HD marketing. Given the scope and reach of Home Depot stores, is there any reason to doubt them? I bet the HD paint department at a busy suburban store sells more paint on a Saturday morning than your average BM dealer sells in a month.


----------



## Sprayboy

brons2 said:


> Furthermore, I was challenged in another thread that the bit about Behr being the top selling paint in America was a claim straight from HD marketing. Given the scope and reach of Home Depot stores, is there any reason to doubt them? I bet the HD paint department at a busy suburban store sells more paint on a Saturday morning than your average BM dealer sells in a month.


There's no question about it. Their Consumer Reports rating has propelled them to new heights. Just because something's popular doesn't make it good. For instance, I remember this cheerleader in high school that...................................................................................:whistling2:


----------



## brons2

Sprayboy said:


> Just because something's popular doesn't make it good.


I never claimed that. In the post prior to the one you responded to, I said it was middle of the road, and that BM/SW were of a higher quality.

However, I have no reason to doubt that Behr probably sells the most paint. The paint counters at most HD stores are pretty busy.


----------



## ferris13

Sprayboy said:


> For instance, I remember this cheerleader in high school that...................................................................................:whistling2:


 
funny


----------



## Matthewt1970

I wouldn't mind it if the stuff didn't sag/fall off the wall with the thinnest of coats. Their solid latex deck/fence stain is TRULY the worst thing on the market.


----------



## chrisn

:no:No comment:no:


----------



## Kevin M.

brons2 said:


> I never claimed that. In the post prior to the one you responded to, I said it was middle of the road, and that BM/SW were of a higher quality.
> 
> However,
> 
> 
> 
> *I have no reason to doubt that Behr probably sells the most paint.*
> 
> 
> 
> The paint counters at most HD stores are pretty busy.
Click to expand...

Why does Behr sell the most paint? Is it because Behr paint is the best paint product available in the $22.00 to $28.00 per gallon price? Consumer Report magazine believes this to be true and has endorsed this product. The majority of professional painters believe the consumer report findings to be erroneous based on substantial field testing with numerous paint products.

Either Behr paint is truly what Consumer Reports states it to be or it is not. The fact that droves of consumers flock to Home Depot to purchase the product based on the third party recommendation of Consumer Reports means zilch in qualifying the necessary data to validate the product.

The real issue here is truth in advertising, and to what degree Consumer Report magazine is qualified to make such large boasts regarding a paint product.

Kevin


----------



## brons2

Most people are not discerning enough to know the difference between a $25/gal paint and a $50/gal paint. And in most of the uses that people have for paint, Behr performs well enough to satisfy them. And it's easy to pick up paint at HD when you're already there for 5 other unrelated items.

As for Consumer Reports, I don't believe their data to be scientific in many areas.


----------



## user1007

brons2 said:


> Most people are not discerning enough to know the difference between a $25/gal paint and a $50/gal paint. And in most of the uses that people have for paint, Behr performs well enough to satisfy them. And it's easy to pick up paint at HD when you're already there for 5 other unrelated items.


And there friends is the business model in a nutshell. HD (and the others) knows it can pawn off everything from poorly manufactured plumbing valves and cheap plastic power tools to crappy paint, sold on advice of a minimum wage employee who know nothing about using the products, to a population that increasingly will claim ignorance of quality difference, or even if knowing of such things, will buy them because it is most CONVENIENT. God help us all. Given what it is now, ever think about the quality level that will be available if the box stores are all that is left?


----------



## chrisn

sdsester said:


> And there friends is the business model in a nutshell. HD (and the others) knows it can pawn off everything from poorly manufactured plumbing valves and cheap plastic power tools to crappy paint, sold on advice of a minimum wage employee who know nothing about using the products, to a population that increasingly will claim ignorance of quality difference, or even if knowing of such things, will buy them because it is most CONVENIENT. God help us all. Given what it is now, ever think about the quality level that will be available if the box stores are all that is left?


 
You got it:thumbsup:


----------



## brons2

sdsester said:


> or even if knowing of such things, will buy them because it is most CONVENIENT.


True, but that sentiment goes way beyond paint. Everyone is trying to do more with less. Businesses are trying to squeeze that last penny of profit out of every product. People are buying the biggest house they can afford. Employees are acessible 24 hours via email through their BlackBerries, iPhones, et al. Kids are getting involved in 5 different after school activities. LIFE IS HECTIC! Ergo, people value convenience over all other factors, because they don't have the time to be educated about what is truly the best. They only value that which is good enough and convenient to purchase.

So, into this market falls Behr paint. HD has already put a store in every suburb in America practically, so it's convenient to go there in the first place. Then they have a paint counter with a plethora of different options. And assuming that the counter is staffed appropriately (it usually is at my local HD), you can get in and out quickly with your paint. There's probably a Starbucks in the same shopping center, and a Bed Bath N Beyond, and a PetSmart. So you stop at the HD, pick up a latte at Starbucks, pick up some new hand towels for the wifey at Bed Bath and Beyond, and pick up Fido's designer dog food at PetSmart. Bam, all the errands done in 90 minutes, and better yet you're only three miles from home. Now you can go home and paint all afternoon, you've got your paint, your energy boost, the wife is happy and the dog is happy. So you end up having to cut in the corners 4 times. Eh, you got the game on and a cold Bud in your hand with the paintbrush in the other, what does it matter?

Not much, apparently.

I have to agree with them. HD just built a brand new store in my urban neighborhood, on the grounds of the old airport that has now moved outside town. They were the first business to come into this space, which means something to me as they invested in my rapidly changing (gentrifying?) neighborhood. They're also super convenient for me to get to and from. They have hours that are convenient to my schedule (Benjamin Moore stores around here are open 7a-5p, not convenient at all for me) The paint that I roll on seems to have decent coverage. The brushed on paint sags, but I just go around the edges a couple more times than I might otherwise do. But that's ok, my walls look like crap anyways due to my once sagging and now repaired foundation. It would be a waste of my money to put Benjamin Moore paint on the interior walls. At least for now. I have gutted my interior downstairs as part of my current project, so maybe now I will be a bit more discerning on paint on my new walls. Once I get them up that is.

Now, I will probably use high end paint on the exterior, because I want it to last a long time.

YMMV.

One other thing. Maybe folks are not aware, but the purpose of management at any publicly traded company is not to insure great customer service or fantastic product, it is to maximize shareholder value. If marketing a paint as "premium" that is really just "good enough" works for the company and makes them extra profit margin, along with happy customers, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do it that way. In the end, it's a numbers game. The only way they're going to improve their product is if people stop buying it en mass. Don't see that happening.


----------



## freeswimmin

Sadly [Brons2], you are exactly right....


brons2 said:


> The only way they're going to improve their product is if people stop buying it en mass. Don't see that happening.


It is my firm belief that the general populace is nothing but cattle... follow the masses, make sure you don't stand out from the crowd, eat what they're feeding you, and as long as your belly's full, you won't think and will stay in line.:huh: this applies to politics, social issues, education system, work force, and religion.... and don't even get me started on the media and 'celebrity' sway of 'public opinions' :whistling2:

two all-time favorite quotes.... _from Albert Einstein~_

*"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."*
&
*"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." *... so true and sad... and much of what is wrong with the state of the world...


threads getting kinda heavy for a mediocre paint!:laughing:


----------



## operagost

So what everyone's telling me is that every paint sucks and I will be screwed no matter what. Well, at least only one person said BM sucks so maybe I'll try that.


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## freeswimmin

operagost said:


> So what everyone's telling me is that every paint sucks and I will be screwed no matter what. Well, at least only one person said BM sucks so maybe I'll try that.


I think the conclusion should be that ANY paint, in the right hands, can end up providing a disasterous finished product!:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Some paints are just easier to work with, level out better, cover better, and smell less. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for:wink:! Personally, I prefer BM, but in a competetive market, can't always justify the price, and i have had decent results (for the price) with Behr Premium latex... but don't get me started on my first and last experience with the Behr Oil :furious:!


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## Sprayboy

Well, I purchased Behr based on Consumer Reports ratings. I stripped the lap-board siding with a Wagner Paint-eater and shot Zinnser Oil-based cover stain II primer. Then I opened the Graco up and shot two coats of super light gray Behr Satin Latex. It sagged a lot but I tend to brush-back anyway. When the sun hits my house you cannot look at it it is SO Stinking BRIGHT! I love it but my neighbors complain that it hurts their eyes. I like it much better than the puke-earth colors that inhabit the neighborhood. We'll see how long it lasts.


----------



## a new DIY-er

Does anyone have any experience with Porter Paint?

Locally, the only non-box store paints we have are Porter, Pittsburgh and Sherwin Williams.


----------



## user1007

a new DIY-er said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Porter Paint?
> 
> Locally, the only non-box store paints we have are Porter, Pittsburgh and Sherwin Williams.


Porter had just opened a store in Champaign Urbana a year or so before I started working up here more and more. I have not heard any bad things about the paint. There seemed to be more an more contractor trucks parked in the lot mornings. Could be a good sign although I did not recognize any of them. 

Pittsburgh had a store too and I have used the products from time to time and cannot complain. Be careful though, the Pittsburgh product sold at Menard's is absolutely as crappy as Behr or Valspar at the competing box stores. The Pittsburgh color fan is one of my faves for the way it is arranged and I often cheat and use it but have the color mixed in Benjamin Moore paint--they have a translation table. 

Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams, in that order, are my fave products to use. I like my Benjamin Moore dealers and the deeper discounts (I have been backing away from buying and marking up paint. I just ask for a discount to be extended to clients and let them worry about paying for it). I never have trouble with the paint performance---even in the contractor grades (which they sell to the public too by the way for about the same amount you would pay for box store crud. Much better paint.). 

The folks at the SW stores strike me as a little too corporate and snarly these days. Nothing wrong with the products though. Same comment with regard to the Ben Moore contractor grades applies. Much better than box store paint. SW does not cut the same discounts as willingly as they used to do. 

MAB, now a SW subsidiary, is good too and great about discounts. They make a great superbond primer, a nice high gloss 100 percent acrylic interior trim paint, and a solid color exterior acrylic stain product---that they will custom match to any color---that is to die for. They cater to contractors but willingly sell retail too.


----------



## a new DIY-er

Thanks! The companies I mentioned are all stores, so it wouldn't be the Menard's version of PPG.

There isn't a BM store around here, but I've heard a rumor that there is a hardware store that sells their paints. (not Lowe's or HD, but a local owned store) Would I need to worry about the quality or does BM not have different grades for certain stores, like PPG does?

MAB = what? (ETA: Nevermind, I see it's simply MAB.)


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## user1007

Not to worry. In CU the Ben Moore paint store was actually a large paint department of an independent hardware store. This is not uncommon. They will have the same quality stuff. As far as I know, Ben Moore does not have a box store product. Or, if they do, they are staying quiet about it.

MAB stands for *M.A. Bruder & Sons Inc.*. It was an old manufacturer out of Philadelphia with a great reputation and a phenomenal policy of giving back to communities. Try to get so much as a dollar out of a box store! MAB was acquired by Sherwin Williams in 2007. 

By the way, not sure what your timing is like but Ben Moore usually has a spring sale with some really sweet discounts on all their paints. You might ask the store when that might be coming up.


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## billy_bob_3

I have used Behr interior, but have avoided Behr exterior.


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## jwolfe

*Behr Disappointment*

I have been painting for over 32 years now and really enjoy it. I usually use Porter Paints but recently purchased a 5 of Behr ceiling paint from Home Depot to paint all my bedroom ceilings. Poor decision. It is terrible to work with. It does not flow and even with creamy white over old ceiling white, it does not cover well. Your brush gets gummy after 20 minutes or so and you'd think you were using a generic ceiling paint. It feels like a primer rather than a finish ceiling paint. I used to think Behr was a top grade paint. I would certainly discourage anyone from using Behr ceiling paint.


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## Rcon

jwolfe said:


> I have been painting for over 32 years now and really enjoy it. I usually use Porter Paints but recently purchased a 5 of Behr ceiling paint from Home Depot to paint all my bedroom ceilings. Poor decision. It is terrible to work with. It does not flow and even with creamy white over old ceiling white, it does not cover well. Your brush gets gummy after 20 minutes or so and you'd think you were using a generic ceiling paint. It feels like a primer rather than a finish ceiling paint. I used to think Behr was a top grade paint. I would certainly discourage anyone from using Behr ceiling paint.


I would discourage anyone from using any Beher paint.


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## ccarlisle

No, no encourage people to do the American thing: shop in your sneakers from your sofa, after your Big Mac. After all they "save" by shopping for anything by spend less from their wallet...

Send them to big box stores...maybe then we'll have less of this whinning when people who do comparison tests tell them otherwise. Let people who paint once a decade swear by any paint they want...what ever they say, is what keeps painters in business!


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## Harley123

I should have read this before I purchase Behr paint because of course can't get refunded..


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## BobKbta

Even though BEHR is Home Depot's own brand, it is by far the best paint I've ever used.


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## Scuba_Dave

BobKbta said:


> Even though BEHR is Home Depot's own brand, it is by far the best paint I've ever used.


You really need to try some other paints then
I did a side by side test with the same brush, same wall
$15 Glidden VS Behr

Behr sucks...


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## Kevin M.

Scuba_Dave said:


> You really need to try some other paints then
> I did a side by side test with the same brush, same wall
> $15 Glidden VS Behr
> 
> Behr sucks...


Nice review. Short,sweet and to the point. :thumbsup:. 

Kevin


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## monkeystomach

So what is the best choice for paint?


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## Sprayboy

A good inexpensive paint is SW-ProMar 200. Depending on how much you buy you can get some deals. :yes:


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## racebum

my only comment on behr is that it means you must be at home depot. if you are, find a lowes and grab valspar. i'm sure there are many private label paints that could be even better, however, valspar rivals ppg as a giant chemical house and makes some fairly decent finishes. my ***** with behr isn't really how it covers, it's how bad most of the colors turn out. they just don't have the snap of valspar, sherwin williams etc.. i may try the SW superpaint next. they have a $10 off coupon if you go to their web page and enter your zip code.


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## Bushman

Wow 23 pages on paint preference. It's crazy how a posting like this would make a begining DIY cringe at the thought of now having to pick a paint.
IMO most people only paint a couple times while in their house. So they don't get a real idea of the variables in paint.
I have painted a few houses (interior) and I couldn't tell much difference between anything.
To me painting was like drywall finishing. I could do it and it looked ok. Not great but ok. Passable for myself. Until.....
My current house my brother helped me paint. He insisted I purchase SW as it was quality and he got a contractor discount. Yep he is a pro painter. He made our LR and Den look great. 
When I painted with the SW it was so easy. It just flowed on to the wall. It was, in my best words, slippery. No effort, no comparison to anything I ever painted before. Our rooms were 3 paint colors and it was a breeze to cut in with. I will never buy a cheap paint again. I would have never thought there was such a difference. For me so far it's Sherwin Williams.


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## rtoni

Bushman said:


> Wow 23 pages on paint preference.


will do my part to push it to 24 :laughing:

been looking for low or zero VOC (my son has some SERIOUS allergies, chemical sensitivities, etc.) for primer and cover. I've seen BM "Natura" and I'm wondering what the overall experience with this paint is, and also if there are comparable low or no VOC brands out there...?

thanks


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## MrBill_DIY

I haven't had any problems with Behr's interior paint. What am I doing wrong?


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## racebum

oh you're not doing anything wrong, if you like it it's right. i can't speak for everyone but my gripe with behr is pigment, not coverage. i'm sure there are paints that cover easier but i have had zero coverage issue with any paint. maybe it's my background in automotive paint which is night and day more difficult than home painting. i have no idea. all i can tell you is try samples of sherwin williams and valspar, i think both of their pigment combos in the colors i have tried are superior. they just simply look more rich with color.


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## Sprayboy

Once again Behr Premium One-step hit Consumer Reports for low VOC and coverage. Their price was $33.00/gallon.:whistling2:


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## racebum

Sprayboy said:


> Once again Behr Premium One-step hit Consumer Reports for low VOC and coverage. Their price was $33.00/gallon.:whistling2:


just looked that up for everyone else, good fast read

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...terior-paints/overview/interior-paints-ov.htm


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## Mushamush

*Behr Paint*

about two years ago I used Behr semi Gloss latex to do a bathroom and the paint worked very well, shortly after I used Behr eggshell on a bedroom wall and found the coverage did not live up to its square footage and did not cover as well as expected. Then I used Bher flat on two bedrooms and everything worked well along with some semi gloss on trimwork. Now I am involved in a major renovation in my Living room, hall way and Dining Room,where I am using eggshell and also my kitchen where I am using semi gloss. The painting in these rooms is becoming a complete disaster as the paint is acting like no paint I have ever used before. It seems that Behr in getting to a faster drying paint has gone overboard. When you do a cut-in and come back even in two minutes it ridges, causes excessive dripping. can see the cut-in brush strokes and every and any place the roller stops or starts. In all cases the surface was properly prepared and base coated covering the older darker colours. The walls washed and dried before base coating. Before I always used an ICI product from Colour Your World and will go back to it for any future painting. What do I do to get back to a smooth surface?
Thanks 
Mushamush


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## petey_c

I've used Behr paints for the last time. I bought them based on Consumer Reports. (I'm an electrician by trade) I noticed lots of sagging (?). I rolled it on nice and smooth. When I looked back, it looked like I dumped a ton on (3/8" nap). The next project will be with Bennie Mo'.


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## racebum

you probably experienced the color sag from putting on a thick coat. the few behr paints i used liked going on light. heavy coats did exactly what you're talking about. i actually noticed the build up going on and ran over it a few times dry rolling. it basically makes one coat coverage not at option.


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## caveman1968

*any idiot can buy paint, brush, rollers*

surface prep !!!!!!!
educate oneself
practice
There are many who make a living taking others earnings who have no business doing so.
people are too often afraid to speak up ......... 
Consumer Reports may think they know what they are doing with their evals, but .......... 80% of the time I end up using their recommendations for target practice.

I haven't used Ben. Mor. yet, have had good results with PPG. I am a penny pincher and Menard's is open late and early.


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## boman47k

Mushamush said:


> about two years ago I used Behr semi Gloss latex to do a bathroom and the paint worked very well, shortly after I used Behr eggshell on a bedroom wall and found the coverage did not live up to its square footage and did not cover as well as expected. Then I used Bher flat on two bedrooms and everything worked well along with some semi gloss on trimwork. Now I am involved in a major renovation in my Living room, hall way and Dining Room,where I am using eggshell and also my kitchen where I am using semi gloss. The painting in these rooms is becoming a complete disaster as the paint is acting like no paint I have ever used before. It seems that Behr in getting to a faster drying paint has gone overboard. When you do a cut-in and come back even in two minutes it ridges, causes excessive dripping. can see the cut-in brush strokes and every and any place the roller stops or starts. In all cases the surface was properly prepared and base coated covering the older darker colours. The walls washed and dried before base coating. Before I always used an ICI product from Colour Your World and will go back to it for any future painting.* What do I do to get back to a smooth surface?*Thank
> Mushamush


Off the top of my head, I would say sanding. From rough grit to fine grit. May have to play with the grit to find the right one that is effecient at removing the roughest paint then work your way to the smoother grit. I suspect it will take a lot of paper as the paper will tend to load up with paint.


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## RemodelMan

Questions to ask yourself is - What's your time worth?
Each paint manufacturer usually makes a low grade paint. The low grade paints have fewer pigments, binders, dryers and more water per gallon than better grade paints. I don't recommend them for anything other than repainting a room that is identical in color and sheen. landlords, who need to paint the same colors each time a new tenant moves in may find this type of product adequate, assuming the walls are in respectable condition, Period.

Otherwise, you need to spend about twenty to thirty plus dollars for each gallon of paint these days. Sherwin Williams, California Paints, Benny Moore and Muralo produce excellent products for both interior and exterior painting. None of them produce a cheap product and will stand the test of time for durability, clean-ability and are colorfast, with the exception to red tones used outdoors exposed to UV light. Muralo, for example, makes a red based primer with exceptional hiding coverage, that will save you the time and money applying an additional coat or two when painting any red tones. 

Behr, has just come out with the same deep red primer base in 2010, that will also save you extra coats when painting reds. Behr claims they have improved their paints adding titanium white which has more solids, thus better coverage. It's a middle-of-the-road paint with mixed results. I personally believe their whites are fairly decent regarding coverage.

Having said that, I am also in the camp that recognizes the importance of proper preparation of the surface. Prep work is necessary if you expect to achieve consistent results!









NOTE: WHENEVER, you apply a filler of ANY type product, you must sand it down even to the wall and then PRIME it.
Primer, acts like a sealer that will leave your paint sheen(flat, eggshell, semi-gloss or gloss) looking consistently even. Additional coats of paint, regardless of how expensive they are will NOT substitute for primer!

There are different types of primer for each type of surface. Ask your sales rep in a paint store for the proper primer that will best seal your wall or ceiling patch, color crayons, food or drink stains, rust, raw gypsum, water stains or other mysterious colors on the surface you are dealing with....
Bottom line is, you may spend a little more up front for materials, but you will save much more on labor, when you use the best equipment ie brushes, rollers etc and paints.

I have to agree with Sprayboy, the best paint is Sherwin Williams and I also use their 100, 200 and 300 series paints. Best bang for the buck!


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## tcfields

*Wow!*



caveman1968 said:


> surface prep !!!!!!!
> educate oneself
> practice
> There are many who make a living taking others earnings who have no business doing so.
> people are too often afraid to speak up .........
> Consumer Reports may think they know what they are doing with their evals, but .......... 80% of the time I end up using their recommendations for target practice.
> 
> I haven't used Ben. Mor. yet, have had good results with PPG. I am a penny pincher and Menard's is open late and early.


My eyes are ZONKED!!! There's so many words!!!! I just purchased (not used) two cans of the Behr A-I-O (@ $30 pg), which I planned on using in my living room and hallway. I have flat, plain white walls. What should I do in terms of surface prep to hopefully have this turn out well?


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## chrisn

Take it back:yes::laughing:


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## tcfields

if i haven't opened it, can i expect to get a refund?


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## Scuba_Dave

tcfields said:


> if i haven't opened it, can i expect to get a refund?


If its not custom tinted...Yes


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## tcfields

Scuba_Dave said:


> If its not custom tinted...Yes


Not sure. If it's a color in their palette, is it still considered "custom"? Also, I just realized that I did NOT purchase the A-I-O has I thought I had, just the regular Premium Plus @ at only $20 pg. If my walls are already painted regular white, do I still need to prime them?


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## tcfields

Ok. Just realized that the can says "Deep Base". This means....??


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## Scuba_Dave

If you bought a can off the shelf its normal stock
If they mixed it to make a color its a custom color


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## racebum

deep base should be a darker color. the dark browns/greens aren't super bad in behr, not like light colors and red, they are just insanely bad. since you can't get a refund you might as well try using it. just make sure to keep a wet edge since the paint is famous for streaking. next time, don't buy behr :no:


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## tcfields

racebum said:


> deep base should be a darker color. the dark browns/greens aren't super bad in behr, not like light colors and red, they are just insanely bad. since you can't get a refund you might as well try using it. just make sure to keep a wet edge since the paint is famous for streaking. next time, don't buy behr :no:


i've painted dozens of times, but i never heard of the "wet edge" before this (apparent) Behr fiasco. Can you elaborate for me, please?


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## racebum

wet edge means you won't want sections drying on you then going back over them in strokes. keep the paint flowing where you keep going over what you have down thus the edge stays wet. people get into streak trouble when they lightly hit a wall then roll a strip across a flashed paint. it often leaves streaking with behr and sometimes even the better cheap paints like valspar or SW classic 99


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## tcfields

racebum said:


> wet edge means you won't want sections drying on you then going back over them in strokes. keep the paint flowing where you keep going over what you have down thus the edge stays wet. people get into streak trouble when they lightly hit a wall then roll a strip across a flashed paint. it often leaves streaking with behr and sometimes even the better cheap paints like valspar or SW classic 99


thanks. so i need to, basically, overlap my lines. Correct?


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## chrisn

thanks. so i need to, basically, overlap my lines. Correct? 

While it is still wet ,yes. With the dreaded Behr, you will need to go over what you have applied every minute till it is dry to catch the runs, drips, sags etc,etc.:whistling2:


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## oh'mike

Do yourself a favor---Use that paint in the garage or basement and Buy some good paint.

The $60 bucks you have wasted will seem like nothing after you see the mess that paint will make.

---Mike---


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## chrisn

oh'mike said:


> Do yourself a favor---Use that paint in the garage or basement and Buy some good paint.
> 
> The $60 bucks you have wasted will seem like nothing after you see the mess that paint will make.
> 
> ---Mike---


:laughing::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## JMDPainting

big dog said:


> I Love BEHR paint as it goes on my wallls like nothing else.... Easy to apply with deep/rich color....listen to the paint experts at home depot.


Is this sarcasim? I wasn't aware there were paint experts at Home Depot. While I have used Behr paint because the home owner purchased his own paint, I had no issues with it, but I would not recommend it either.


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## mafdet

"Originally Posted by *Plaster Ayn*  
_There are about 3 plants that make all paint. Now each supplier could have certain polymers or additives in them, but basically they are all the same.

As for your red. Red is a hard color to get right and any time you use a dark color it must go in a clear base which will mean more than one coat.

Picture a glass of milk and a glass of water. If you drop red food coloring in the milk it will only get to pink, but its an opaque pink. If you drop red food coloring into water it look red but you can see right through it.
Paint is the same way."_





chrisn said:


> Not necessairly true anymore, some of the top of the line paints have deep base instead of clear.


It's not just "top of the line" paints that have deep bases instead of clear. You need to take into consideration that these deep and clear based paints take at least 12-16 oz of tint, and you need to allow at least 12-16 hours in between your coats for those deeper colors. Taking a deep red paint rolling it on your walls and re-coating in 4 hours is almost as bad as taking the actual tint itself and expecting it to dry fully in 4 hours. Impossible. It would take over a month if not longer. If you allowed proper and full dry time in between your coats, I bet your paint job would look much better. Also, when I painted with red I used a grey tinted primer. They try to give you a tinted primer that is pink - it's still going to take the same amount of coats to get the proper red. I've used behr for years. Just recently I painted a room with sparkling apple, and beluga. Both colors in a deep base with 12 oz of color in them. I had no problem with the coverage, I was done in two coats! I also allowed proper dry time. I have also used BM's aura, and I hate it. It dries way too quickly so you can see streaks and roller marks on my walls. I had to use dyna flo extender in order for it to slow the dry time. Never again! I have also used glidden, it's not that bad for a contractor grade paint. The sheens aren't scrubbable though, I find.


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## Matthewt1970

Well you are praising 2 of the worst paints on the market. Behr and Glidden. Picture Forest Gump: "Behr is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you're gonna get". Lets spin the ole' result wheel and see what you land on...... Oh sorry, you landed on "Paint as thick as peanut butter, terrible coverage and sagging paint".......Better luck next time. 

How a sheen that is not scrubbable qualifies as not bad I will never figure out. I have recoated red's dozens of times as soon as the first coat is dry and never had a problem.


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## Sprayboy

One thing is right for sure. The proper method is a coat of primer and then two finish coats. I don't care if you are talking interior or exterior. We have two houses on the block that were done by flippers within the last four years and both are peeling in spots. One group did not re-nail the siding and nails are backing out already. The new owners are miffed.


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## mafdet

actually, I never "praised" glidden. My whole house was painted in a glidden flat sheen after their so called silent upgrade. I got to some more painting today, did the usual prep, washed my walls and my rag has all the color from my walls on it. Thats your glidden. I do not praise. I bet if you knew how to paint with behr, you'd shut your mouth. Truth is, I've preferred behr for as long as I have been painting. Their paint is a bit thicker - yes. Spraying that paint I wouldn't recommend, but painting with it - absolutely. And yes, you've recoated your reds before they have dried fully - good for you. That makes your red take much longer to dry, and also it will mark up way easier. Don't try and deny it, it is fact. 
ps;

"How a sheen that is not scrubbable qualifies as not bad I will never figure out."

Never did I say that a "sheen not being scrubbable is not bad", I simply stated glidden being a contractor grade paint is not as bad as some of the paints out there. I think you will have to get over your 'behr is bad paint tangent'. Simply because you do not know how to paint with it - does not mean it is bad paint.


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## Matthewt1970

I know exactly how to paint Behr. You put it on the walls and roll out the sags for the next 2 hours. Then you typicly have to recoat it 2 more times.....:laughing:


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## Matthewt1970

mafdet said:


> "Originally Posted by *Plaster Ayn*
> I have also used glidden, it's not that bad for a contractor grade paint. The sheens aren't scrubbable though, I find.


:whistling2: :thumbsup:


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## hammerheart14

paint_guy said:


> forget the behr stuff? haha i think your forgetting who is number 1 buddy. behr is... i sell paint all day long and have performed many tests and behr is definitly the best :thumbup:


Ya, I sell paint all day and can tell what you're saying is bull****. What, you say they're number one because Consumer Reports says so? We all know that the companies pay them money to say what they want. I have applied all kinds of differents paints over the years, and I can tell you that Behr is one of the worst paint lines out there, along with Glidden. If you want to know what a good paint is, try using BM Aura or P&L's Accolade line. And C2, they make great paint as well.


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## chrisn

Originally Posted by *paint_guy*  
_forget the behr stuff? haha i think your forgetting who is number 1 buddy. behr is... i sell paint all day long and have performed many tests and behr is definitly the best :thumbup:_



Wow ,I missed this travesty of logic


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## oh'mike

Best at what? It makes little difference to me if it is best at anything---

It is worst at application---If Behr wins a prize for long life---but looks terrible the whole time--

That's no prize in my eyes---


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## 95025

It seems to me that you tend to get what you pay for.

I would have been happy to use BM or SW paint on any of my houses, but frankly, wasn't willing to pay the exorbitant prices. I know that if I was a professional painter, I'd get a HUGE cut in price, but they're just too danged expensive for the common guy like me.

For what it's worth, I use almost all Behr Paint - not because I'm in love with it, but because there is a Home Depot near where I live (everything else is a LOT farther away). Honestly, I've been perfectly happy with it.

Also, I painted a storage shed with Behr Ultra Premium Paint (with primer) this fall. I loved the way it went on. I guess time will tell whether or not it turns out to be good paint.


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## ccarlisle

We all have 'standards' that we use to compare things, and obviously some are a lot lower than others' are...compare a Yugo and a Bentley to see what I mean.

Behr paint is a product made to meet a *price point*. That's all. It's starts out as a product capable of delivering $_x_ per square foot of occupied floor space...

From a personal point of view, I'd rather buy something I put on others' walls be what they pay for, not a product that helps pay HD's rent. 
:laughing:


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> From a personal point of view, I'd rather buy something I put on others' walls be what they pay for, not a product that helps pay HD's rent.
> :laughing:


Right. And I don't want to pay $50 per gallon of paint from SW or BM.


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## ccarlisle

Well then, don't. But if I told you the % of real paint you bought from BM was 100% (say) and the % of paint you bought from Behr was, say, 25%, then you'd still be wasting more of your money wouldn't you?

It's a question of efficiency. Or $ per oz of paint. Personally, I'd rather spend my money *efficently.*

OK, this is a far-fetched example, and I realize I do have a nice bright well-staffed store to go to from time to time for my $ spent on Behr, but still. 

I'd rather spend my money with BM or SW - the guys who do the research work with my $.


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## Matthewt1970

I only wish Behr paint would last as long as this thread.......


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## ccarlisle

Put another way: as long as the US General Public aims for trying to be smarter than a fifth grader, threads like this will thrive. LOL


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> Put another way: as long as the US General Public aims for trying to be smarter than a fifth grader, threads like this will thrive. LOL


I hope you're not implying that those of us who choose to use Behr Paint are no smarter than a fifth grader...


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## hammerheart14

DrHicks said:


> Right. And I don't want to pay $50 per gallon of paint from SW or BM.


WHY? You will be saving money in the long run if you are a homeowner. why paint an exterior every three to five when you can use paint that will last from ten to fifteen years? You save more money in the long run.


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## ccarlisle

I have no idea whether or not you consider yourself part of that segment of the population. I am commenting on deliberate 'dumbing-down' of people by marketers of inferior products-with-inflated-price points...

Read the thread; no matter how long it goes on, there will always be people who get duped by others into thinking a product is good when - in spite of the evidence given by users/comparors to the contrary - it is not.


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## 95025

hammerheart14 said:


> WHY? You will be saving money in the long run if you are a homeowner. why paint an exterior every three to five when you can use paint that will last from ten to fifteen years? You save more money in the long run.


Not necessarily.

Why would I use $50 per gallon paint in the interior of rental houses? Does anybody, in their right mind, really think those walls aren't going to be repainted every couple years anyway?

Also, are you married? Has your wife ever been happy with having the walls the same color for 20 years? It hasn't worked that way for me. In our nearly 30 years of marriage, my wife like to change colors every 3-4 years. If somebody wanted to use ultra-premium, expensive paint for such an application, they're more than welcome to. But we're not "foolish" or "dumbed down" because we choose to use a moderately price paint.


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> I have no idea whether or not you consider yourself part of that segment of the population. I am commenting on deliberate 'dumbing-down' of people by marketers of inferior products-with-inflated-price points...
> 
> Read the thread; no matter how long it goes on, there will always be people who get duped by others into thinking a product is good when - in spite of the evidence given by users/comparors to the contrary - it is not.


So what you're saying is that the only good paint is the paint you choose to use - and that people who use paint other than your brand are dumb.

I've used all kinds and brands of paint for all kinds of applications - from interior house walls to automotive body work. Every maker/marketer claims that their brand is the best. But they're not.

I've found several things to be true:
1. For the most part, you get what you pay for. Usually, but not always.
2. Surface prep - or the lack thereof - trumps any topcoat.
3. It is asinine to pay a premium price for paint that is going to be re-coated in 1-3 years anyway.
4. There are a lot of excellent products out there. *SW & BM are just such products. They sell better paint than does Behr (etc.).* But there is absolutely no question that you pay an extra $10 per gallon for nothing more than the pride of having their name on the label.


This is why those of us who choose to use less exxpensive paints for economy situations have NOT been "dumbed down." We are actually making smarter financial decisions. Example: I recently renovated the interior of a large 3-bedroom rental house. New paint in every room, as well as the hallway. Custom colors in every room. I did all the work myself. 

TOTAL cost of primer & paint was just over $220. Had I called a professional painter, and used SW or BM Paint, it would have cost me well over $1,500 to have the interior or the house painted.

There is no question that I made the right decision for that application.


----------



## ccarlisle

Your logic is faulty - but it's your own - so I won't comment further; consider the following:- 

"_There is none so blind as he who cannot see..."_


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> Your logic is faulty - but it's your own - so I won't comment further; consider the following:-
> 
> "_There is none so blind as he who cannot see..."_


No, my logic is not faulty. Your arrogance, however, is rather shocking.

_There is none so blind as he who is promoting his own product._


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## STL B.

If you have rentals you should open an account at SW or BM the prices drop significantly. The cheap SW is then cheaper by $5-$10 a gal than behr and in my mind better or buy a mid to high grade SW for about the same price as behr premium. That said I have only had one bad experience with behr and that was a flat red that burnishes when you so much as look at funny and I know that SW paint gives better one coat coverage than behr does and a time savings is worth something. Sherwin Williams is def. geared for the pros and for good reason I would guess 85%-95% of their sales are construction/contracters but theres nothing to stop joe home owner from opening an account and getting the discount. Furthermore SW staff doesnt mind they just want to sell more paint and if they can sell you all of your paints and stains for your home or rentals their happy. I dont know how often everyone else paints in their home but I am on my second wholehouse paint job in 5yrs the first being with behr and the 2nd being with the SW cash account (about 30gal so far between my family and friends) and it is saving me money and time plus selling more for SW while reducing the behrs marketshare win win win


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## 95025

^ Right ^


I think it might vary, depending on the SW or BM Store. 

I tried to go that route, but their price drop wasn't significant. Yes, if I were a professional painter and buying hundreds of gallons per month, I'd get a huge price break. But even with the price-break they offered me, their paint was still more than double the price of the "mid-grade" paints. $5 per gallon off a $55 per gallon paint is really not a big savings. Maybe it was just the store I was dealing with.

In my case, it wasn't worth it. However, I would never have the audacity to talk other people down and condescend to them, for making a different choice.


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## Matthewt1970

When you walk into a BM or SW, ask for the contractor grade stuff. Promar200 for SW and Superspec for BM. They are in the mid $20 range per gallon and will outperform the upper end Behr all day long.


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> When you walk into a BM or SW, ask for the contractor grade stuff. Promar200 for SW and Superspec for BM. They are in the mid $20 range per gallon and will outperform the upper end Behr all day long.


That's a good point.


I should also add that, where I live, it is quite a ways farther to either the SW or BM Stores than where I typically buy my materials.

So again... Choice is good.


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## Windows

Also, one weekend a month during the warm months, S/W has a 30% off paint sale. If you time your purchases and select your paint grade strategically, you can get a pretty good deal, and you don't have to deal with the numbskulls at H/D.


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## STL B.

Doc I know what you mean with the "$5 off of $55" a gal paint their pro classic is like that but their sher-scrub and pro-mar200,400 or600 (not sure of the numbers sorry) can be had for $15-$25per gal and thats not a bad price. You would get volume discounts also but I would never get close to that amount. The way I look at it is even if I break even on cost between SW or behr or even pay more every thing is of good quality. Plus they have every kind of paint/stain imaginable from floor coatings to roof paint. This spring I have to paint my galvanized siding on my garage and SW has a couple of paints/primers for this and I cant imagine the look on the HD paint station attendants face if I asked them what I needed to do this. But if your just buying a couple of gal. a year for your walls it prob. isnt worth the trouble to open an account but if your buying,selling or rehabbing a house and buying lots of paint it would be for me at least. I am just suprised at how often I go to HD and see people buying 15-30 gallons of paint because if your using that much paint it would benefit you to go to a paint store. I know I am sounding like a cool-aid drinkin SW fanboy but I am really happy with this pricing and service, no waiting in line for 30+ min anymore just quick in and out. I guess the long short of it is SW is workin out for me right now and HD is workin for others so to each their own as long as you like the color.


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## bofusmosby

Come on guys, lets not get to each others throats. Everyone has their own opinion. 

Speaking of paint preferences, here's one for you. Is the behr paint bad because of the cover-ability of it, or does it not adhere good to the surface it was painted on? A friend asked me a question about this very subject the other day, and I told him that it just didn't cover well (behr). He then asked me if the prep-work was done correctly, could a second coat of the good stuff be as good over the Behr paint? I told him that I suppose so, but hey, let me ask those who should know. As long as the initial prep-work was done correctly, will adding a second coat of the SW or BM hold up OK? I have no idea if the original paint (Behr) has a problem with adhering to the walls over time, but he said that there is no sign of peeling, or lifting from the walls. He did tell me though that he had to use 2 coats of it, which of course is twice the money.

I can understand both sides to the question as to what paint to use. Some people just don't have the extra cash to buy the best. However, when you figure in the amount of time and labor, I myself would rather go with the best quality if at all possible.


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## STL B.

My only gripe with behr is the coverage or one coat coverage per say every time I have painted with behr it takes 2 good coats to reach your color. The cheaper SW paints are the same way but if you upgrade a little you get one coat coverage. I recently painted my inlaws living room with SW cashmere in a matte finish and it was a pleasure to paint with it left less brush/roller marks and covered great there was simply no need for a second coat.


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## ccarlisle

I can tell you that cheaper paints have less pigments and lesser quality binders in them - to say nothing of any of the oether 35-odd ingredients in a can of paint - and that simple observation is what leads to inferior performance in paints. So coverage is less and the paint has a harder time coping with problematic substrates - BUT the customer thinks he has _saved_ on the PRICE of a gallon of paint, thinking he only paid $30/gallon compared to a BM $40/gallon. He sees an extra $10 in his pocket so he thinks he did a good deal.

But when it comes time to, say, repaint a patch, or scrub off a mark or cover a dark red, he might realize that that extra $10 probably would have been better spent on a good paint. Probably won't; he'll just go out and buy another gallon and chalk it up to bad luck.

I wouldn't use a cheap paint on even a rental property that was due for a repaint in 3 years; I would however use a lesser grade of a good paint, rather than a good grade of a bad paint. 

I - and several other on this board who do loads more painting than I do - can save in labour costs (using a good paint) what some people think they save on a gallon of bad paint.

Then again some people's standards are lower than others'. Depends...but it's hard to argue with the collected wisdom of several hundreds of painters here both pro and not-so pro. Yet there will always be those who think they know more.
:laughing:


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## 95025

STL B. said:


> I guess the long short of it is SW is workin out for me right now and HD is workin for others so to each their own as long as you like the color.


There ya go. It really depends on what you need, what you're willing to pay for it, and the payoff. 


It's the same reason I bought both of my sons an 18v Ryobi tool kit for Christmas. If they were contractors using these tools all day every day, the Ryobi wouldn't be adequate. But I'm not going to pay $750 for a Milwaukee kit just so they can have a Milwaukee kit.


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> Then again some people's standards are lower than others'. Depends...but it's hard to argue with the collected wisdom of several hundreds of painters here both pro and not-so pro. Yet there will always be those who think they know more.
> :laughing:


And there's that shocking arrogance again. The all-too-common attitude in blue-collar tradesmen. :laughing:

Obviously it depends a lot on whether you're the one getting paid, or the one paying. I can only imagine what kind of a list price mark-up you stick onto every gallon of paint you apply.


So tell me, was I also foolish to spend $1500 on a good used Grand Cherokee, rather than $35,000 on a new one - just because the new one gets better mileage? You probably think so...


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## STL B.

ccarlisle I dont think anybody questions SW paint being higher quality than behr but is the cost justified or "worth it" it is to you but not to others and thats ok it's their money they can spent it how they please and you should'nt wag your finger. Now tell me what your Idea of lesser high quality paint and is their any SW paint you think sux or wouldnt use. I like the sher scrub better than promar200 I painted with it didnt cover well in my opinion. The promar was a cream/off white color and was an eggshell finish that more of a satin and it didnt hide much as far as tape/mud/sand goes. What paint is everyones fav.?


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## chrisn

DrHicks said:


> And there's that shocking arrogance again. The all-too-common attitude in blue-collar tradesmen. :laughing:
> 
> Obviously it depends a lot on whether you're the one getting paid, or the one paying. I can only imagine what kind of a list price mark-up you stick onto every gallon of paint you apply.
> 
> 
> So tell me, was I also foolish to spend $1500 on a good used Grand Cherokee, rather than $35,000 on a new one - just because the new one gets better mileage? You probably think so...[/quote]
> 
> 
> Depends on the milage, the new one will last you 10 years( or better) How long is the used one going to last?:whistling2:


----------



## chrisn

STL B. said:


> ccarlisle I dont think anybody questions SW paint being higher quality than behr but is the cost justified or "worth it" it is to you but not to others and thats ok it's their money they can spent it how they please and you should'nt wag your finger. Now tell me what your Idea of lesser high quality paint and is their any SW paint you think sux or wouldnt use. I like the sher scrub better than promar200 I painted with it didnt cover well in my opinion. The promar was a cream/off white color and was an eggshell finish that more of a satin and it didnt hide much as far as tape/mud/sand goes. What paint is everyones fav.?[/quote]
> 
> BM aura


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## ccarlisle

_


STL B. said:



ccarlisle I dont think anybody questions SW paint being higher quality than behr but is the cost justified or "worth it" it is to you but not to others and thats ok it's their money they can spent it how they please and you should'nt wag your finger. Now tell me what your Idea of lesser high quality paint and is their any SW paint you think sux or wouldnt use. I like the sher scrub better than promar200 I painted with it didnt cover well in my opinion. The promar was a cream/off white color and was an eggshell finish that more of a satin and it didnt hide much as far as tape/mud/sand goes. What paint is everyones fav.?

Click to expand...

_ 
I don't use SW paints as their store is about 10 miles from me so I subsidize BM...I am no painter but painting is part of my business so nor can I comment on a favorite paint either but - in spite of limited experience - I do know the economics of painting (I think) in terms of what costs can be attributed to a paint job, what that job requires as for manpower, what profit I derive from that and how to please a customer. 

Also, I actually sell my reputation - as that's pretty well all I have in my truck even though there are tools and equipment there too. And, after the job is done, my reputation is all that is left behind. 

So, in order to 'sell' something you have to know what it is you're selling, inside and out plus the pro and cons of not only your product but other products as well...and seeing as how I handle probably hundreds of products, I cheat a bit, by trying out products on a limited scale and then read up on them to see what other guys think of them. Here, in the case of paints, I was a bit lucky in that I had already been using BM paints before I got into this current business so had a head-start - but it only took one job using a lesser-quality paint for me to understand the ultimate, hidden costs of using inferior products, and inferior equipment. 

I "cheated" in reading the reviews by guys on this forum, guys I respect because of their professionalism. But almost to a man, they gave me reasons to stick with BM paints - so I did. Now I won't use anything less and won't do the job even if the customer provides me free Behr paint. Not worth it to my reputation.

Now I won't stick a customer with $65 a gallon paint just because I know it's a good paint - but I will still use a BM Regal, or MooreSpec - names we have up here...versus as Behr or Walmart paint. But I do know that a paint job with a lesser brand will cost more in terms of labour and reputation than just using a good paint to start off with...

So there are hidden costs associated with using inferior products, maybe not immediate costs but costs nonetheless; now I won't argue that my cheap cordless drill suits me fine to screw in the odd fastener at home but you won't find me using it on the job. And ask anyone about $9 roller covers versus the HD 3-for-$5 covers they sell...I can't afford to use them.

Hah! there'a concept a fifth grader won't grasp: "_I can't afford to use them." _Sorry Doc you'll have to sit this one out.


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> Hah! there'a concept a fifth grader won't grasp: "_I can't afford to use them." _Sorry Doc you'll have to sit this one out.


Didn't you say you were "done with this discussion" several posts ago? The ego just won't let you do that, will it?


There is a HUGE difference between "can't afford to use them" versus "I am choosing to not buy the most expensive product on the market." 

There is also a HUGE difference between saying, "Make an informed decision and buy whatever paint you want to buy," versus "Anybody that buys paint other than what I buy is stupid." One is honest. One is driven by insecurity.


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## 95025

chrisn said:


> So tell me, was I also foolish to spend $1500 on a good used Grand Cherokee, rather than $35,000 on a new one - just because the new one gets better mileage? You probably think so...
> 
> 
> Depends on the milage, the new one will last you 10 years( or better) How long is the used one going to last?:whistling2:


Actually it's a no-brainer, from a purely financial perspective. I paid less to buy my Jeep than you'd pay in taxes if you bought a new one. And I can buy a new engine for my Jeep for less than you spent on taxes to buy the new one. I'll also pay less for licensing each year, and insurance each month. 

Again, from a financial perspective it's a no-brainer.


On the other hand, if you can afford the new Jeep and want to buy it, more power to ya! I won't stand in your way, nor will I be so arrogant as to say you're dumb because you're not buying the same thing I'm buying. :thumbsup:


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## Windows

Give it a break.


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## mafdet

hammerheart14 said:


> Ya, I sell paint all day and can tell what you're saying is bull****. What, you say they're number one because Consumer Reports says so? We all know that the companies pay them money to say what they want. I have applied all kinds of differents paints over the years, and I can tell you that Behr is one of the worst paint lines out there, along with Glidden. If you want to know what a good paint is, try using BM Aura or P&L's Accolade line. And C2, they make great paint as well.


 
BM Aura is the worst. It's awesome that they brought in all new tinters to make an eco-friendly no VOC paint - but it is crap. It dries way too quickly and you REALLY need to maintain a wet edge. Worst.


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## mafdet

ccarlisle said:


> Your logic is faulty - but it's your own - so I won't comment further; consider the following:-
> 
> "_There is none so blind as he who cannot see..."_


And everything you say, you need to justify as right to feed your ego.


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## Matthewt1970

mafdet said:


> And everything you say, you need to justify as right to feed your ego.


You are the one who got all pissy when we bashed Behr. I can understand brand loyalty but when you have seen the kind of catostrophic failures from Behr we have, then you will understand.


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## mafdet

Matthewt1970 said:


> You are the one who got all pissy when we bashed Behr. I can understand brand loyalty but when you have seen the kind of catostrophic failures from Behr we have, then you will understand.


I've painted with behr for fifteen years, and I've painted many houses, decks, fences, sheds, cielings etc. I haven't ever had a problem. Well, one. It was a sheen difference on the walls from the same pail. But that was all. I've had **** luck with other paints like CIL, BM, and sw. I'm not here bashing them. And neither am I bashing the child who gloats incessantly - I am simply stating an opinion and yes, I get vigorous about it.


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## packer_rich

glad I found this thread. I have been painting a townhouse with Behr recently. I thought the problem was all me, but now I see others have the same problem. I can see all the roller mrks where they end and overlap. It's drivin me crazy.I roll in different directions, overlap, and I just can't get the ceiling to look good.


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## DGideon

*Behr paint*

I have been a painting contractor for 18 years now. I have also used all the top brands from all the top dealers. For the money, I think the Behr Ultra Premium is great. I have noticed that the product is a little thick. A little Floatrol fixes the problem. As far as coverage, 2 coats cover fine, Even in the deep base. Sherwin Williams as far as I'm concerned used to be #1. Now...the products like there super paint for trim and doors sucks. I have mentioned this to the reps and they do admit there is a "formulation" problem. The Behr works fine.


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## shandal

I have recently applied Behr paint on walls in new construction application.....had no problem with it....but we have had quiet the dilemma with Benjamin Moore Primer... 
After the drywaller applied this primer I used Benjamin Moore paint to the ceiling. The smell was horendous...Thought it was the paint..After applying 2 coats to the ceiling, (the 1st 5gal pail was clotty-was told it was old stock and was credited $10.00 on next pail) I was disgusted with the results...could see every line and was drying up fast. Couldn't see where you left off and was blotchy. Painted the third time with Behr (because it was cheaper - had already gone through 3 - 5gal pails). Still not corrected. Then proceeded to spray not once but twice with Behr and then once more with Behr but with roller... but still looked the same as when the second coat of Benjamin Moore was applied..So then I decided to start from scratch....prime one of the bedrooms with the Benjamin Moore AGAIN.....ta dah.....It was the Primer....It smelt like AMMONIA, did not apply well, and could see lines....I have NEVER encountered this...I have used Gliddon Paint for many many years and have had no problem with it, Behr paint I just tried on the walls, and applies very nicely, even Walmart Contractors paint (which I have been told is Gliddon paint) and Home Hardware and even Canadian Tire paint I have used....and NEVER encountered anything like this... (been painting contractor for many years...) A 5gal pail of this ceiling paint was $200.00 and Behr paint at Home Depot at $89.00/pail....and there was no difference in quality....but for primer to do this to a ceiling baffled me....Unfortunately I did not apply the primer but paint should not be absorbed like a sponge as this did, on the 7th application of paint and lines from all the applications should not be visable...I will be contacting the store where this was purchased and lodging a complaint as this has put me back 4 days not only time but money as well.....So to people out there....if the paint or primer smells unusual, don't use it....and really, I will not tell people to not purchase this product as there must be a simple explanation for this (was not stored properly, a bad batch) but in all fairness, it is my responsibility to lodge a complaint and have the problem identified and paint what my customers want me to work with and adapt..each medium will need adjustment of technique and you just have to be patient....


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## cep89

I used to use Behr paint and thought it was good, but I recently painted the outside of my house with Muralo paint. It was so good I can't go back. Muralo holds a wet line with your brush so well that you don't need any tape, it just cuts a perfect line. It was kind of thick but it was really a one coat coverage paint and it lasts, my house was painted with it 12 years ago before needing to be repainted. The only problem with it is finding a paint dealer that stocks it nearby.


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## StevenH

Is it me or Behr paint is the only paint that smells like animal urine?

I just tried their exterior Behr Premium Plus Ultra

It's like glidden paint, but better


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## chrisn

StevenH said:


> Is it me or Behr paint is the only paint that smells like animal urine?
> 
> I just tried their exterior Behr Premium Plus Ultra
> 
> It's like glidden paint, but better




not sure that is good or not:laughing:


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## ccarlisle

...go forth, my son, and Behr no more....


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## chrisn

nuff said:whistling2:


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## rtoni

wow - Home Depot could commission a study on this thread.

I'll need to be shopping for exterior stain in a year or 2 when my addition is finished completely and I get to go back and concentrate on siding or stain or whatever I can afford for the entire house. Currently there's a semi transparent stain on the place, with one brand on the old section - (might have been MooreWood or something like that?) - and the newer stuff which is <covering head with arms here> Behr.

Not sure how it will look a couple years from now or what kind of shape I'll be in myself, but I got a feeling this thread will still be alive :laughing:.


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## SatManager

What does everyone think of Valspar paint? Or about Frazee Paint? Any recommendations between the two? I don't have a Sherwin Williams or Ben Moore close. And I won't mention that the Home Depot is the closest of any of them to me. I think I have the idea that Behr paint is not highly recommended.

Thanks for any words of advice that anyone may have. I have to repaint the entire interior of a HUD home that I am going to close on next month. And only 3 walls are Green, Orange and Red. So I will prime those wall first. I figure that there isn't that much paint on the walls as the house was built in 2007.

Don


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## Matthewt1970

I would take Valspar over Behr. It does tend to splatter quite a bit but won't give you the catostrophic failurers Behr will.


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## StevenH

SatManager said:


> What does everyone think of Valspar paint? Or about Frazee Paint?


Anything is better than big box store paint.

Dunn Edwards, Frazee, kellymoore, _California Paints, _


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## chrisn

rtoni said:


> wow - Home Depot could commission a study on this thread.
> 
> I'll need to be shopping for exterior stain in a year or 2 when my addition is finished completely and I get to go back and concentrate on siding or stain or whatever I can afford for the entire house. Currently there's a semi transparent stain on the place, with one brand on the old section - (might have been MooreWood or something like that?) - and the newer stuff which is <covering head with arms here> Behr.
> 
> Not sure how it will look a couple years from now or what kind of shape I'll be in myself, but I got a feeling this thread will still be alive :laughing:.


I can tell you for sure that Behr stain is absolutly the worst on the market. Not just my opinion, look it up.


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## oh'mike

My neighbor was literally in tears after applying Behr deck stain--It had been done with Cabots previously.


Looked awful--Mike--


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## ccarlisle

Satmanager, is this your _own_ home? Look, maybe you're one of those who *can* afford low quality paints - and by that I mean that this may be your first home and therefore you are able and willing enough to spend a lot of time on painting. It may be nothing for you to apply, say, four coats of a cheap paint to get it to look OK - because your time isn't valued the same and you're aiming for just the right investment. 

Also, with multi-coloured walls to cover, you may not think this is a challenge for a cheap paint - but it is nonetheless. So you go ahead and apply more coats to make sure you get the coverage you want...again your time is your own - and you're on a learning curve. So just maybe a cheap paint is _sufficient. _But to others, for a number of reasons - practical and technical - it's not productive or satisfying enough to be just _sufficient._ 

Many people you read here have seen the disadvantages of using a cheap paint, get frustrated with it and then start re-evaluating the value of their time even though it may not be much and the choice they made in buying a cheap paint in the first place...needless to say their are many, many converts _away_ from cheap paints - just as there were converts away from Yugo automobiles. People can only be dumbed-down a given amount until there is a revolt over the proliferation of "cheap" goods, be it "Made in China" appliances, Walmart merchandise or Yugo automobiles....LOL

Having said that, I see you have a TV program that defies American adults to challenge their fifth-grader children to see 'who's smarter'...boy! talk about aiming 'down'. Obviously, there's a market out there for such products, let's just that savy people aim higher.

In then end it makes sense - and cents.

Oh yeah: remember paint covers colours better than primers do, so those coloured walls may need something different than just a primer to hide the previous paint.


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## rtoni

chrisn said:


> I can tell you for sure that Behr stain is absolutly the worst on the market. Not just my opinion, look it up.


i needed something to cover the new exterior sections - knowing I would do a complete re-cover (old and new sections) in a couple years. when that time comes if I do re-stain I'm thinking of a solid stain - been using the contractor grade of Ben Moore paint for the interior and so far happy with it (from a DIY point of view, fwiw). So that might be the brand that goes on the outside. BM store is across the street from the HD so I don't have to go far out of my way.

what do you guys recommend to prep the old (Behr semi transparent) and the older (unknown) semi transparent stained walls before applying new solid stain? figure the weather will have power washed them for years by that time. can I just re-apply new stuff?


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## SatManager

ccarlisle said:


> Satmanager, is this your _own_ home? Look, maybe you're one of those who *can* afford low quality paints - and by that I mean that this may be your first home and therefore you are able and willing enough to spend a lot of time on painting. It may be nothing for you to apply, say, four coats of a cheap paint to get it to look OK - because your time isn't valued the same and you're aiming for just the right investment.
> 
> Oh yeah: remember paint covers colours better than primers do, so those coloured walls may need something different than just a primer to hide the previous paint.


ccarlisle - Yes, it is going to be my home. I will be living in it for many years. So I do want a good job, but I don't want to spend weeks doing it. My time is valuable and I also want a quality job. So what I have in paint in my area is the following:

Home Depot
Lowes
Frazee Paint
Ace Hardware
Sherwin Williams
Ben Moore
Dunn Edwards

So out of all that, what is your opinion of which paint brand (and which product) should I use?

Now your comment about I might need more than primer to cover the previous colored walls. Could you please clarify what you mean? I was under the understanding that proper procedure would to use a primer to help seal and cover the existing paint and any places that I needed to repair. 

Thanks for any information you can provide to clear up my confusion.


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## ccarlisle

Just as I suspected: your own home, and your time is somewhat valuable, to the extent that you're not up for doing it over because of faulty products or procedures. I mean that corresponds to a lot of people - but still the draw of cheaper prices manages to snare some....

Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams are the ones to get; there may be others but those are what most people on this board who paint for a living will tell you. If you want to spend $65 a gallon on one of the top paints from each supplier, like "Aura" from B-M, go ahead but it's not what I would suggest to you. 

A mid-range line of either of those two suppliers is what I would get - I don't know if what you have is similar to what we have up here, so I'll keep my mouth closed on that. But typically there will be about 4 'grades' of paint, from the best to a contractors grade, so choose something in the middle.

If you are going from a dark red to a light colour, you may need a tinted primer somewhere close to the final colour you choose; but that may be the only time you need a primer under a painted wall. What you need is paint on a painted wall, a primer only gives better surface adhesion and drywall fill-in, but does nothing for colour hiding: paint does that - not primer.

So two coats of paint on your coloured walls. If you do drywall repairs on those walls, then you may need a primer. The reason is that paint contains microfine titanium dioxide (primers don't) and these expensive pigments are meant to cover. Primers have cheaper, coarser talc that is in there to fill in voids, but not cover colours.


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## SatManager

Thanks for the information. I stopped by Sherwin Williams and Dunn Edwards today. SW quoted me a price of $27 a gallon for the ProMar 400 paint. SW wants $48 for their Duration paint (their top of the line). DE quoted me $26 a gallon for the Suprema paint (which is their top of the line). Now I would think the DE price is much better, unless the DE is much worse paint. Any opinion? The DE manager said that their paint is being used in many of the casinos here in Las Vegas. Don't know if that helps, just wanted to toss it out and see if it counts for anything.


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## Matthewt1970

Go back to SW and tell them that is too high, especially for ProMar400.


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## SatManager

The guy at SW said that all they could do is a 10% discount as a preferred customer. Dunn Edwards was giving me a 45% discount (both from list price). So I guess I am going to go with the Dunn Edwards paint unless someone can tell me that it is worse than the SW contractor line paint.

Is the contractor versions better than the homeowner versions? And I am only comparing paint from the same manufacture, not from the big box stores.

I would like to thank everyone on this forum who have passed their years of wisdom and experience to those of us who are part time handymen (handyperson?).

Don


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## 95025

SatManager said:


> The guy at SW said that all they could do is a 10% discount as a preferred customer.


This is exactly the attitude/approach I ran into when I tried to do business with SW. I fully understand that I'm not a professional painter who is buying hundreds of gallons of paint per week, so they're not going to give me their best price. But knocking a few dollars per gallon off the price of paint, that is double the price of other good paints, was simply not in my best interest - especially when it's going on the interior of rental property that will have to be repainted in a few years anyway.


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## Matthewt1970

The contractor stuff is just fine in my opinion (Promar 200) but the promar 400 is a low low grade of paint and they should be ashamed for quoting $27 a gallon for that stuff.


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> The contractor stuff is just fine in my opinion (Promar 200) but the promar 400 is a low low grade of paint and they should be ashamed for quoting $27 a gallon for that stuff.


Unfortunately, they're not ashamed. They assume that their name alone will carry the day and make the sale.


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## SatManager

They pretty much smiled at me when they told me the price. He even mentioned that they have been told not to reduce the price of their paint unless corporate authorizes the reduction (through email offers). They just want to get that mailing list.


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## Matthewt1970

I can't speak much for Dunn Edwards but Benjamin Moore is fine. They will have Super Spec in the mid $20's as well as most BM dealers also carry Pittsburg Speed Hide. Those are both much better than Promar400.

PS: Get your brushes at BM as well since SW owns Purdy and has the absolute highest prices for them.


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## SatManager

The BM dealer is quite a far distance from me. The nearest ACE hardware to me doesn't sale BM, just the Ace brand paint.

Now the Dunn Edwards sells purdy brushes and the manager said that I would be able to get a discount on them along with the paint. It sure is making the Dunn Edwards store look better.


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## chrisn

D E is just fine, go with it.


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## Mkelderman

I have been using Behr paint for the last couple years on and off. My experience has been mixed. The coverage has been good for me. I spray ceilings, trim and closets. The ceiling paint is extremely thick so I thin that with proflo type stuff and it helps. Trim paint sprays good. It seems to stay just slightly tacky for a couple days though. 

One problem I have had is with the exterior ultra. I painted a 6500 sq ft stucco home and ran out of paint for small touch up. I got one more gallon mixed off the computer tag and it didn't match. I threw a fit and it got to the point that the Behr rep in my area mixed over 20 single gallons trying to get it to match. He came to the house to test them. Couldn't get a match. After three weeks and countless reps coming to try, Behr reimbursed for paint and labour. After all this I called my uncle who has been painting for 40 years. He is from the day of mixing his own paint. He brought his dye over and had a absolute perfect match in 15 minutes. Hats off to Behr for reimbursement but you would think a rep could match paint.

I did another exterior and made sure to get plenty of paint. Just for giggles I had one more gallon mixed to see if the previous job was a fluke. It wasn't even close to matching.

The interior paint hasn't been a problem. I have 15 rental properties and use one color for walls, satin enamel for trim and ceiling paint. I buy 5 gallons at a time. I touch up after a tenant moves out and a new batch matches colors perfect that were mixed a year or two before.

I would prefer to use bm or sw but for the money they cost I wouldn't make it in the rental business. I now just use the better paint on exteriors.


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## Gdgarth

My experience with Behr paint is completely different from what many others are saying here.

I've been using it, both in my Primary home and in our lake home. I've been impressed with it's coverage ability - I've been able to cover even deep colors in one coat. I always use high quality tools, and don't skimp on the paint. To me, getting single coat coverage is more important than painting the maximum square footage per gallon.

I've also had to have them mix paint to match previously painted walls, and have been impressed by the ability of the Home Depot guys to get it right - this is at two different HD's (in Nebraska and in Missourri).

The performance of this paint has been so good that I'm not sure I'll ever use another brand for interior work.

For exterior trim on my primary home, I've been using SW Duration. It seems to be OK, I'll probably stick with it for now.

It seems as though many on this (and other) message boards don't like the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes. I've had pretty good luck with them, although you can't always depend on their employees to know much about the product or processes. On the other hand, they do stand behind their products pretty well.


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## ccarlisle

OK so you have a sample of one...who would you endorse if you were a newbie: your sample of one - or the opinions of guys that paint every day with different paints/procedures/substrates?

Our point is: a sample of one is inconclusive.


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## Gdgarth

Wow, seems like you're really upset at my post! I'm not trying to convince anyone to use Behr - it's no big deal to me.

I'm just surprised to read of all these problems people have, since I haven't seen these problems at all. I've used some cheap paint in the past - I won't do that again, since the cost difference in using good paint is insignificant compared to the labor needed to do it over again.

Interestingly, I first used Behr paint after putting two coats of SW on the ceiling of a room. The coverage was really poor - tons of bleed through - I just couldn't make it look good. In desperation, I tried the Behr "Premium Plus", and I was able to get good coverage in one coat.

Now, I've used SW many times before, and always had good results. I suspect I got a bad batch somehow. I certainly wouldn't say I'd never use it again - I think they make a fine product. I was just making the point that I've been extremely satisfied with the Behr paint, as well as the service and ability of the paint department employees at the two Home Depot stores I frequent. 

My "sample of one" is actually my experience over a number of projects over several years. I'm not a professional painter - but I'm old enough to have had some experience with a number of things.

I'm always amazed at how everyone on an internet message board is an expert - all their work is perfect, they always buy only the best tools and products, and never make a mistake. When I meet pros in the real world, their response is often different. I work in real estate, and bump into builders, painter, carpenters, etc. on a regular basis. They're much less opinionated about products than most on this message board. 

I'd suggest a "newbie" consider talking to some people who have some experience, then go ahead and jump in and get his feet wet. Ideally, he'd have someone who has done a few projects who'd be willing to help him get started. Personally, I take everything I read on a message board with a grain of salt. Although there's a lot of good info out there, there's a lot of misleading (or just plain wrong) info out there as well.


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## fauxagoodtime

*Experience with Behr*

We do a lot of faux and cabinet refinishing. Of all the paints there are including Porter, Sherwin Williams, etc. we really like Valspar from Lowes the best. The consistency is great and it covers really well. We've used Behr and just aren't that crazy about it.


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## housepaintingny

joewho said:


> The condensation is from the moisture in the paint evaporating near the closed window. That will happen with any paint.
> I've used pro mar 200 for many years and it's one of the best for the cost you can get. It covers very well. There is no comparison between 200 and behr. 200 is the same as superpaint without the 25 yr. warranty.


I agree. I've used thousands of gallons of SW Promar 200 over the years and have never had a problem with it at all. SW also has Promar 400 and 700 which are cheaper than 200, but better than bear, even SW masterhide which is even cheaper in price is better than bear.


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## chrisn

Gdgarth said:


> Wow, seems like you're really upset at my post! I'm not trying to convince anyone to use Behr - it's no big deal to me.
> 
> I'm just surprised to read of all these problems people have, since I haven't seen these problems at all. I've used some cheap paint in the past - I won't do that again, since the cost difference in using good paint is insignificant compared to the labor needed to do it over again.
> 
> Interestingly, I first used Behr paint after putting two coats of SW on the ceiling of a room. The coverage was really poor - tons of bleed through - I just couldn't make it look good. In desperation, I tried the Behr "Premium Plus", and I was able to get good coverage in one coat.
> 
> Now, I've used SW many times before, and always had good results. I suspect I got a bad batch somehow. I certainly wouldn't say I'd never use it again - I think they make a fine product. I was just making the point that I've been extremely satisfied with the Behr paint, as well as the service and ability of the paint department employees at the two Home Depot stores I frequent.
> 
> My "sample of one" is actually my experience over a number of projects over several years. I'm not a professional painter - but I'm old enough to have had some experience with a number of things.
> 
> I'm always amazed at how everyone on an internet message board is an expert - all their work is perfect, they always buy only the best tools and products, and never make a mistake. When I meet pros in the real world, their response is often different. I work in real estate, and bump into builders, painter, carpenters, etc. on a regular basis. They're much less opinionated about products than most on this message board.
> 
> I'd suggest a "newbie" consider talking to some people who have some experience, then go ahead and jump in and get his feet wet. Ideally, he'd have someone who has done a few projects who'd be willing to help him get started. Personally, I take everything I read on a message board with a grain of salt. Although there's a lot of good info out there, there's a lot of misleading (or just plain wrong) info out there as well.


I believe most of us are or have been professional painters for many years.:whistling2:


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## jsheridan

I've read a bit of this thread, it's been around for some time. I'm a professional painter, old school. I do everything by the book, no cut corners. I'm not the best, but I consider myself among them. And I use Behr paint, and I've never had a problem with it. (There, I'm out of the closet). It's not my first choice and I don't think its the best. but it has its place in the toolbox. I used to be a Behr hater until a customer insisted I use it in her kitchen about six years ago. It was a brown eggshell. Most painters would have called it one and done after the first coat, it covered that well. The finish looked beautiful, as well as any other brand. It did look like it might curtain but, as a pro, I adjusted my application of it and had no problems. This customer was an OCD, and washing kitchen walls, especially around the trash can, was one of her compulsions. As a pro, whenever I get back to a job I've done, I inspect the finish and workmanship. I can honestly say that after about three or four years of washing, the finish still looked good. I don't care what the name or reputation of a product, those results speak for themselves. I just used the prime while painting product over unprimed drywall, a dark green. Again, it looked one and done over bare drywall. And, at a later date, it passed an adhesion tape test. It did its job. I used the semi-gloss enamel on trim at my mother's house. It worked great and looks great with a slightly duller than semi appearance. Just as I can find some real garbage in an SW or MAB or BM store, I can find some value at a big box. For the price, the product is a real winner in my book. I'm a regular Ben Moore guy, but not everybody has a Ben Moore budget nor needs the quality of BM. Different paints are like different tools in a box. Too many painters are one way with their favorite brands and, as they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My website is posted below, along with a gallery of my work. If, because I use Behr paints, someone wants to accuse me of not being a pro, or less or one, go check it out and come back and tell me your complaints.


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## Ole34

I completely agree with everything Jsheridan and GDgarth said but im not that helpful a person to sit and type it all out like that lol ...............


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## chrisn

jsheridan said:


> I've read a bit of this thread, it's been around for some time. I'm a professional painter, old school. I do everything by the book, no cut corners. I'm not the best, but I consider myself among them. And I use Behr paint, and I've never had a problem with it. (There, I'm out of the closet). It's not my first choice and I don't think its the best. but it has its place in the toolbox. I used to be a Behr hater until a customer insisted I use it in her kitchen about six years ago. It was a brown eggshell. Most painters would have called it one and done after the first coat, it covered that well. The finish looked beautiful, as well as any other brand. It did look like it might curtain but, as a pro, I adjusted my application of it and had no problems. This customer was an OCD, and washing kitchen walls, especially around the trash can, was one of her compulsions. As a pro, whenever I get back to a job I've done, I inspect the finish and workmanship. I can honestly say that after about three or four years of washing, the finish still looked good. I don't care what the name or reputation of a product, those results speak for themselves. I just used the prime while painting product over unprimed drywall, a dark green. Again, it looked one and done over bare drywall. And, at a later date, it passed an adhesion tape test. It did its job. I used the semi-gloss enamel on trim at my mother's house. It worked great and looks great with a slightly duller than semi appearance. Just as I can find some real garbage in an SW or MAB or BM store, I can find some value at a big box. For the price, the product is a real winner in my book. I'm a regular Ben Moore guy, but not everybody has a Ben Moore budget nor needs the quality of BM. Different paints are like different tools in a box. Too many painters are one way with their favorite brands and, as they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My website is posted below, along with a gallery of my work. If, because I use Behr paints, someone wants to accuse me of not being a pro, or less or one, go check it out and come back and tell me your complaints.


You said it right there:whistling2:


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## jsheridan

Chrisn, and your point is? I don't understand. I've read some more of this thread and came to a couple of conclusions, about paint and people. By your logic, and I say you because you seem to have a bitter vendetta against Behr, if I'm not using BM Aura on every single job and instance I am an idiotic hack. Guys are recommending to newbie DIY's to use SW Promar 600, no such product, how about 700. The promar line is the chalk suspended in water that builders put in new construction, that new homeowners and subsequent painters dread. Get real. I've had bad experiences with a number of SW products but I don't trash SW or people who use it. I use a lot of flat enamel and Behr makes one that has worked fine for me for years. Never one single problem. However, I did have problems with MAB Lustre Lite flat enamel, on a couple of occassions. There's a snobbery in this thread that I'm sure has put a bad taste in the mouths of newbies attitude about this forum. A lot of the problems I hear people expressing about Behr are due to a lack of painting skill, not a bad product. Address those issues. Explaining to people how to paint should be the focus of this forum, as I try to do in my posts, and why I joined this forum, not thrashing the products they choose to use. I learned when I was a kid that a good mechanic doesn't blame his tools or product. And over the years since I learned the truth of that. A skilled mechanic can do a decent job with any tool or product. Adapt and overcome, don't whine. As I said, Behr is just another tool in the box that I reach for when a job or circumstance calls for it. I've never had a problem with it not covering, failing, or in applying it. And, I've used it long enough to discover any long term failures. That's my experience, and all I need to know. I'm not alone in my opinion on this thread. Let the newbie learn on their own what paint fits their need. This thread has lasted as long as it has because a few opinionated people, some non-painters, are raising people's hackles with personal opinions and, in some cases, very suspect evidence and "facts". I'm not defending Behr paint, they're big enough to do that. I'm simply pointing out that different things work for different people. If Behr is as horrible a product as some claim, they would go out of business. That's how the free market works. The last time I was in HD, it didn't seem that would be happening anytime soon. 
Respectfully


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## chrisn

jsheridan said:


> Chrisn, and your point is? I don't understand. I've read some more of this thread and came to a couple of conclusions, about paint and people. By your logic, and I say you because you seem to have a bitter vendetta against Behr, if I'm not using BM Aura on every single job and instance I am an idiotic hack. Guys are recommending to newbie DIY's to use SW Promar 600, no such product, how about 700. The promar line is the chalk suspended in water that builders put in new construction, that new homeowners and subsequent painters dread. Get real. I've had bad experiences with a number of SW products but I don't trash SW or people who use it. I use a lot of flat enamel and Behr makes one that has worked fine for me for years. Never one single problem. However, I did have problems with MAB Lustre Lite flat enamel, on a couple of occassions. There's a snobbery in this thread that I'm sure has put a bad taste in the mouths of newbies attitude about this forum. A lot of the problems I hear people expressing about Behr are due to a lack of painting skill, not a bad product. Address those issues. Explaining to people how to paint should be the focus of this forum, as I try to do in my posts, and why I joined this forum, not thrashing the products they choose to use. I learned when I was a kid that a good mechanic doesn't blame his tools or product. And over the years since I learned the truth of that. A skilled mechanic can do a decent job with any tool or product. Adapt and overcome, don't whine. As I said, Behr is just another tool in the box that I reach for when a job or circumstance calls for it. I've never had a problem with it not covering, failing, or in applying it. And, I've used it long enough to discover any long term failures. That's my experience, and all I need to know. I'm not alone in my opinion on this thread. Let the newbie learn on their own what paint fits their need. This thread has lasted as long as it has because a few opinionated people, some non-painters, are raising people's hackles with personal opinions and, in some cases, very suspect evidence and "facts". I'm not defending Behr paint,:huh: they're big enough to do that. I'm simply pointing out that different things work for different people. If Behr is as horrible a product as some claim, they would go out of business. That's how the free market works. The last time I was in HD, it didn't seem that would be happening anytime soon.
> Respectfully


I will be brief and done with this subject for good,( I promise)

My point was that as you said quality matters. Certainly not all jobs require top quality but while I was in business, all of my clients( except those few who bought their own paint) got what most consider top quality paint, IE Ben Moore.

I have no vendetta againt Behr. I just do not promote sub standard products.

if I'm not using BM Aura on every single job and instance I am an idiotic hack

I do not know where you came up with that 

SW pro mar was not anything I promoted

I've never had a problem with it not covering, failing, or in applying it. 

Well, you have had you're good experiences and all I have had with any Behr product were bad. What more can I say, the 5 or 6 time I used it were ALL bad, for one reason or another

I'm not alone in my opinion on this thread.
No, maybe not, but you are most certainly in the minority.

If Behr is as horrible a product as some claim, they would go out of business. 
Not when you have countless millions to throw at advertising

I will say no more about this subject


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## 95025

^ As I've said earlier, I use (mostly) Behr Paint because Home Depot is far closer to me than any other store - including a paint store.

So you've used Behr Paint 5 or 6 times, and had bad results every time. I have used Behr Paint hundreds of times and never had bad results. Ever. And I'll hold up anything my wife & I've painted against anything painted by anybody else, and challenge anybody to find it inferior.


My point is that people are free to use whatever product they choose - just like they're free to drive whatever kind of vehicle they want to drive. You're not an idiot for driving a Dodge, just because I prefer to drive a Jeep. And I'm not an idiot for choosing to use Behr Paint for most of what I do.


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## Matthewt1970

The odds of someone using Behr hundreds of times and not have a problem are out of this world. I have probably used it 20 times and had a problem almost every time. I have had thier interor wall paint sag when putting on normal. That happened 3 out of the 4 rooms we painted. The only time I used thier ceiling paint it didn't cover OVER WHITE and we used a gallon a room in average size rooms. I have used thier exterior and we full primed white oil and then 2 coats of the Ultra Premium and it still looked streaky. My girlfriends deck and fence was painted with Behr fence and Deck stain in September 08 by the previous home owners. By spring 09 the stuff was horribly peeling and looked like a 10 year old job. I redid the fence last summer with Pittsburg and not one single spot is peeling.

Thier flat out lying sales tactics of Paint&Primer in One should be enough to turn anyone away. 

BTW, we have used Promar200 in $500,000 homes and the homeowners loved it. It is far from builders grade quality.


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## Ole34

when it comes to interior paint it really doesn't matter what label you use as long as you use their good stuff then basically it comes down to who's behind the brush.......all this talk about paint failing inside is pure crap other than moisture related issues and then it doesnt matter what you use cause it will all fail ..............theres a thread here were guys were Bashing Zinsser Cover Stain ........... saying its crap and doesnt level out etc etc etc lol Go figure:whistling2:...................it cant be the painters fault can it???? nooooooooooo blame the paint


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> The odds of someone using Behr hundreds of times and not have a problem are out of this world. I have probably used it 20 times and had a problem almost every time.


Then I guess I must be an out of this world painter. All this time I figured I was just average... 

A couple years ago I used Valspar Paint in my office building. They had a great rebate going at Lowe's, and I figured I might as well save $75. I really liked the stuff. It went on well, smoothed out nicely, and looks great. 

Maybe I'm just lucky. And maybe my local Home Depot does a better job of mixing the paint. I don't know. But I do know what my experience has been. That is all.


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## Ole34

Matthewt1970 said:


> I have had thier interor wall paint sag when putting on normal. That happened 3 out of the 4 rooms we painted. .


 


paint sag???? ..............you roll it out enough? .....you bring a loaded roller to the ceiling then leave a glob of paint there ??........ you thin it a bit then work it ?? if you worked for me i wouldn't change paints but I would change painters, you sound like a bum.......YOU DO IT RIGHT AND THE PAINT CANT SAG...maybe cold plaster walls if anything but then just roll it out good and have fans behind you and go over your work to catch the build up if any ....never in my life have I ever had a ''problem'' with paint sag. it happens but you have to catch it then alter your technique and move on............damn you had a problem in 3 out of 4 rooms??? lmao ....................FIRED


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## jsheridan

I thought I threw a little water on the fire earlier, but I guess it was the gas can. I thought the sentiment in my early posting would have gotten through. Paint choice is a business or personal economic decision. It's also based on successful experiences. The logical person, which economics assumes, maybe wrongly, will not again pet the dog that bit him. My question for you MatthewT is, why didn't you stop using Behr after the first or second failed experience? Why try something that failed eighteen or nineteen times previously? Who should be questioning whose logic? As to the fence, Did you powerwash it? I doubt the previous owners did as they cleaned it up for sale. If you did, you probably washed away the dead wood cells from the UV degraded lignin that would cause ANY stain to fail for a lack of sound substrate. As to the Promar 200, it is definitely a builders/contractors grade material. If you'll accept some "homeowners" sample of one as to the quality of a finish, why won't you accept those who have used a product and had lots of success with. There's hardly a sample of one on the successful usage and numbers of those who do so. Live and let live.
BTW, BM has its share of problems with hide. In my gallery, the pictured sunroom with the natural wood had to be done with MAB, because a full prime with cover stain and two coats of an off-white BM Aura satin wouldn't do the job. MAB is a far superior product when it comes to hide, just a shame it has so many other problems. 
I'm now going to go join ChrisN on the sidelines.


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## jsheridan

Actually, economics assumes rationality, not logic. Though not quite interchangeable, I used logic because I thought it tossed around a bit. Just clearing up for the record. There may be a couple of armchair economists lurking in these threads, and this thread can't afford an offshoot tangent. Back to the sideline. The cops will be here soon to tell eveyone to move on, nothing left to see here folks.


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## Ole34

i have nothing nice to say so ill just whistle 

:whistling2:


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## Matthewt1970

Ole34 said:


> paint sag???? ..............you roll it out enough? .....you bring a loaded roller to the ceiling then leave a glob of paint there ??........ you thin it a bit then work it ?? if you worked for me i wouldn't change paints but I would change painters, you sound like a bum.......YOU DO IT RIGHT AND THE PAINT CANT SAG...maybe cold plaster walls if anything but then just roll it out good and have fans behind you and go over your work to catch the build up if any ....never in my life have I ever had a ''problem'' with paint sag. it happens but you have to catch it then alter your technique and move on............damn you had a problem in 3 out of 4 rooms??? lmao ....................FIRED


This is why people don't like you on this forum. Google "Behr Paint Sag" and then you will be know before you speak. It's painting, not rocket science.


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## housepaintingny

jsheridan said:


> I thought I threw a little water on the fire earlier, but I guess it was the gas can. I thought the sentiment in my early posting would have gotten through. Paint choice is a business or personal economic decision. It's also based on successful experiences. The logical person, which economics assumes, maybe wrongly, will not again pet the dog that bit him. My question for you MatthewT is, why didn't you stop using Behr after the first or second failed experience? Why try something that failed eighteen or nineteen times previously? Who should be questioning whose logic? As to the fence, Did you powerwash it? I doubt the previous owners did as they cleaned it up for sale. If you did, you probably washed away the dead wood cells from the UV degraded lignin that would cause ANY stain to fail for a lack of sound substrate. As to the Promar 200, it is definitely a builders/contractors grade material. If you'll accept some "homeowners" sample of one as to the quality of a finish, why won't you accept those who have used a product and had lots of success with. There's hardly a sample of one on the successful usage and numbers of those who do so. Live and let live.
> BTW, BM has its share of problems with hide. In my gallery, the pictured sunroom with the natural wood had to be done with MAB, because a full prime with cover stain and two coats of an off-white BM Aura satin wouldn't do the job. MAB is a far superior product when it comes to hide, just a shame it has so many other problems.
> I'm now going to go join ChrisN on the sidelines.


Promar 200 is not a builders grade paint. Promar 400, Promar 700, and SW master hide are builders grade paints. Promar 200 is actually a pretty good paint, it comes in differant sheens, it also comes in the original formula, low VOC, and zero VOC. It covers all colors well, good hide, and uniform.


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## Ole34

Matthewt1970 said:


> This is why people don't like you on this forum. Google "Behr Paint Sag" and then you will be know before you speak. It's painting, not rocket science.


 

i googled it and all i see is a lot of bums that cant paint having problems.............keeps your eyes on the wall and know your product and how it flows and you wont have paint sag 


paint sag is from a build up of paint.............. ROLL IT OUT !! this is why i hate book taught painters....


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## Ole34

*heres a comment of google *


Jul 3, 2009 *...* And of course the *Behr* ended up *sagging* and running after I had left the room. 



i bet this clown rolled it on thick then walked away then blamed the paint........then all his ''buddies'' were like ''yeah bro that behr sucks, we have the same problem'' .......then they all went out back an got high again 


i would have fired this bum on the spot.............he prob rolled the behr like he rolls everything else and thats a no no ............ you have to feel the paint out as you roll and adapt..obviouslly if the paint is thicker you roll it out more or add some water to retard dry time and increase spread. i dont care what you put in my 5 once it hits the wall my brain makes adjustments as needed ............you could dump glue in my 5 and i would roll it out smooth as a babys ass...................but then again im not like most painters:wink: and maybe thats why i dont have these types of problems


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## housepaintingny

A room can be rolled out perfectly and yet when you leave the room and come back a little bit later there can be sags from cheap thin paint or from a cold surface. This is no fault of the person rolling the walls. No paint needs to be thinned with water. If the paint is this then it is a quality paint. Why would any professional water down paint, unless they are trying to stretch it out. I never thin paint, not even when spraying it. There is no need to


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## Ole34

housepaintingny said:


> A room can be rolled out perfectly and yet when you leave the room and come back a little bit later there can be sags from cheap thin paint or from a cold surface.


 

if you walked out on a cold wall before the paint set up I would fire you on the spot and keep 1 days pay for costing me money and making me stop work to scream at you and gettin me all worked up.......sometimes you have to baby sit walls or work the fans and hair dryers ........do whatever it takes just do not let it sag .............and if you rolled a wall perfectly it wouldn't sag because you would have spread an even coat over the entire surface and then baby sat it with a fan if you had a brain ......................the problem always goes back to the painter not the paint...............this is why a lot of guys cant use oil paint cause it runs on them and they cry saying oil sucks ...........(no you suck) learn to use a product an apply it correctly and you should know by experience when and when not to walk away from a wall. if the paint sagged on you then you messed up and walked off so you get fired and the paint stays lol



sometimes under certain conditions paint will sag and its up to the painter to handle the situation...............all paint will sag if not applied correctly not just Behr


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## oh'mike

Ole34--Lighten up! I've got lots of painting experience---Behr sags---Some times it's the product--this is one of those times.


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## housepaintingny

Maybe we are suppose to babysit the walls like Ole34 says?


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## Ole34

housepaintingny said:


> Maybe we are suppose to babysit the walls like Ole34 says?


 
you need to do something since your the one having problems...........not me


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## Ole34

i was just about to reply to MIKE when i saw the new comment sooooooo...........MIKE, im done with this thread before i get my membership revoked lol


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## housepaintingny

Ole34 said:


> you need to do something since your the one having problems...........not me


I'm not having trouble. I don't use cheap thinned paint. We only use quality products and also back our work up with a written labor warranty.


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## housepaintingny

Ole34 said:


> you need to do something since your the one having problems...........not me


I'm not having trouble. I don't use cheap thinned paint. We only use quality products and also back our work up with a written labor warranty. The paint we use does not sag and we don't have to stand there being non productive baby sitting the walls looking for sags.


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## Matthewt1970

Ole34 said:


> if you walked out on a cold wall before the paint set up I would fire you on the spot and keep 1 days pay for costing me money and making me stop work to scream at you and gettin me all worked up.......sometimes you have to baby sit walls or work the fans and hair dryers ........do whatever it takes just do not let it sag .............and if you rolled a wall perfectly it wouldn't sag because you would have spread an even coat over the entire surface and then baby sat it with a fan if you had a brain ......................the problem always goes back to the painter not the paint...............this is why a lot of guys cant use oil paint cause it runs on them and they cry saying oil sucks ...........(no you suck) learn to use a product an apply it correctly and you should know by experience when and when not to walk away from a wall. if the paint sagged on you then you messed up and walked off so you get fired and the paint stays lol
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes under certain conditions paint will sag and its up to the painter to handle the situation...............all paint will sag if not applied correctly not just Behr


We deal with these kind of people all the time, the know it all and their way is the only way. So do you paint one wall at a time and then put the fan on it, let it dry, and then move on, or do you have the fan on the whole time making your paint flash all over the place? But you said paint doesn't sag, it's the painter, so why do you need to have a fan with you if the paint doesn't sag? And why is a fan needed to keep paint from sagging? The last time I painted a room all 4 walls had sags so I would have had a heck of a time finding the cold wall if it wasn't for the windows. 99% percent of the painters I run across hate Behr paint, but I know, they all suck and they have no brain.


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## Ole34

look im not going to argue about this rookie stuff.........its a simple concept really, roll it out an keep an eye on the paint and it wont sag on you, walk off on it and it will sag on you...........ive had paint ''attempt'' to sag on me but ive never had paint ''sag'' on me while I was in the other room lol............and YES I can afford to baby sit paint and be non productive for a few mins cause I am the baddest painter on the planet when it comes to brush and roller work so ill just make up for it later if need be :wink:


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> 99% percent of the painters I run across hate Behr paint, but I know, they all suck and they have no brain.


You do know, don't you, that 88.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot, only for the purpose of trying to prove a point?


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## Matthewt1970

Well keep babysitting your Behr paint, we will be moving on to the next room and not worry about it because we used quality paint we don't have to keep an eye on. Sorry, boss (or home owner) I couldn't get the job done today, I had to babysit the paint. It's all good though, I saved $8 on the 2 gallons I bought.


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## beenthere

Some post have been deleted. Name calling/suggesting is not appropriate.


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## kboyz

I'm new to this forum but not this trade. Behr paint is absolute garbage and *DOES *sag as a general rule. Wall temp, skill level etc. have no bearing.


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## marvieburke

*Behr(ly) paint*

I wish I had read these threads before buying Behr(ly) paint with primer. I joined this forum just to add my 2 cents. This paint is unbelievably bad and I don't know how they stay in business. I'm leaving now to go and get my money back, then on to another store to get Valspar, the paint/with primer I had been using with great sucess. Only bought Behr(ly) because I could not get the color I wanted with Valspar and the place could not seem to color match the Behr(ly) color.


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## chrisn

"better to leave the walls bare than put Behr on the walls":yes:


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## PPGTrueValue

*Home undependable giving you the bahr minimum...this stuf bahrly covers*

i own a local true value hardware store
Today diy big box market has the consumers idea of good paint all twisted up. A Good paint is consistent, doesn't drag, doesn’t sag, is easy to touch up and covers well, is adhesive, and not only lasts but keeps that freshly painted look for years to come scrub after scrub. Bahr premium plus ultra simply is a high solids, with price point being there main concern. products that to the eye seem to work well but when put to the test they fail. And Show Un-cansistant results. It Drags, the finish is drab, don't even think of trying to touch up a wall after your done. Bahr uses the paint and primer pitch a little to broadly. i mean face it most paints cover when doing a repaint but how do they perform on fresh or tricky substrates? 
Tit To Tat 


Self Priming timeless Bahr ultra 
Sticks to Galvanized yes no
Fiberglass yes no
PVC yes no
Paneling Yes no


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## chrisBC

Just to share my two cents, I've done a lot of interior painting over the last 15 years. I consider myself quite experienced when it comes to brushing and rolling interiors, as well as prep work, etc.



Now i use BM almost exclusively as I like their service and their paints.

The last interior job I did I had to buy Behr as I was in a pinch and needed a gallon of paint for trim and windows. I was told this was the best behr had for painting woodwork.

It was terrible paint and cost me money on the job, after attempting to paint the first few windows with it I should have taken it back and asked for my money back. It ran like crazy and needed more coats than it should have.- 


I second the motion, Behr sucks and it pisses me off everytime i'm in HD picking up odds and ends and I see all the DIY's buying the stuff, please go to a paint specialty store, you will have a much more positive painting experience with real paint from a real paint store, learn from my mistake.


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## user1007

marvieburke said:


> I wish I had read these threads before buying Behr(ly) paint with primer. I joined this forum just to add my 2 cents. This paint is unbelievably bad and I don't know how they stay in business. I'm leaving now to go and get my money back, then on to another store to get Valspar, the paint/with primer I had been using with great sucess. Only bought Behr(ly) because I could not get the color I wanted with Valspar and the place could not seem to color match the Behr(ly) color.


Out of the pan and into the fire:thumbup: Valspar? I am guessing a Lowe's not Home Depot purchase. Wish people would read these posts. Good paint is sold in paint stores!:furious: As for color, any paint store with a scanner can match any color anyone else mixed for no extra charge. Just bring in a sample of the color or be devious and bring in the color chip you like.:thumbsup:


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## Nessy12

*Berh paint, never again*

I normally never post and I created this account just to make this point. Keep away from BEHR!

I'm a DIYer and I've painted with BEHR for years. No issues. About two years ago something changed. Their paint suddenly became terrible. This happened to me on two jobs. I contacted them and they gave me a full refund, +$100. Excellent for customer service and warranty, but I decided to give up on them for good.

I went to Williams and they tried to sell me a very expensive exterior paint with no warranty to use inside. I wasn't interested in that. I went to BennyMore and they were closed for inventory! No one inside and the lights were off but I was told they would be opened when I called them. Who closes for inventory! And it took me 1.5 hours (2 way) to drive to the nearest store. Poor customer service. It seems to me that BennyMoore's biggest problem is their retail end with their little mama and papa stores.

With BEHR at the home depot open late, I decided I would try BEHR premium line (primer+paint), but I had already primed anyways. Worst performance ever! Terrible picture framing and very poor coverage over the previous color. Even worse then their regular line!

BTW: What's this crap I read on here that, it doesn't matter what paint you use as long as you're a good painter. Please, the technology should do the work for me and it use be simple and user friendly. I'm a DIYer, I don't have 20 years to become an expert.

In conclusion, keep away from BEHR unless you want to do 4 coats and still be disappointed, I don't know what they did in the last 2 years, but they've ruined their product!!! I guess I have no choice but to try Benny Moore again and hope that it performs well and hope that they are open to serve me when I show up.


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## user1007

Nessy12 said:


> I went to Williams and they tried to sell me a very expensive exterior paint with no warranty to use inside. I wasn't interested in that. I went to BennyMore and they were closed for inventory! No one inside and the lights were off but I was told they would be opened when I called them. Who closes for inventory! And it took me 1.5 hours (2 way) to drive to the nearest store. Poor customer service. It seems to me that BennyMoore's biggest problem is their retail end with their little mama and papa stores.


You are angry at SW because they would not warrant an exterior paint for interior use? Never been in a little Mom and Pop Ben Moore place so will pass comment on that. 

Bless you for the Behr comments though. I feel like none of us are getting the message across though.


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## Gary in WA

Please keep in mind the advertising rules of this forum, thank you.

"Participants may not publish or discuss any information regarding their product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services they are, or have been, associated with."

Gary


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## 95025

GBR in WA said:


> Please keep in mind the advertising rules of this forum, thank you.
> 
> "Participants may not publish or discuss any information regarding their product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services they are, or have been, associated with."
> 
> Gary


If you enforce that rule you're going to have to remove about 80% of the posts on this thread.


Shoot, a couple weeks ago my wife repainted our dining room (Again... She decided that the color she painted it last year wasn't to her taste.). She used Martha Stewart paint. Not even sure where she got it. But here's the deal: She got what she wanted, and it went on perfectly fine. She's happy with the result (she's an extremely particular artist), so I'm happy. Maybe we're stupid people, but for $25 I have a very happy wife with a perfectly painted dining room in an extremely nice house.


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## user1007

GBR in WA said:


> Please keep in mind the advertising rules of this forum, thank you.
> 
> "Participants may not publish or discuss any information regarding their product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services they are, or have been, associated with."
> 
> Gary


I assume you mean as employees, spokespersons, or otherwise paid? Otherwise, please send me privately your email and address so I can send you the shotgun shell to shoot yourself in the other foot.

I have no interest in either a paint company nor any supplier of equipment. I just painted to make a living, most every day for a time. 

Maybe this thread is just too old. Nobody seems to be listening anyhow. And it is just too easy to buy fish, paint, acceptable high fashion, donuts and cheap coffee in the same place these days. 

Pros reading this will know what I mean. One of the competing box home improvement stores sells ground coffee cheaper than any grocery store near me these days as a come on. And cheaper than the other two Chinese tools too:yes:


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## EmiliaL

I can't thank y'all enough for the comments on this thread.

I used Behr years ago as a favor to my neighbor when she wanted her white exterior door repainted in...white. 

It took me 3 coats. 

I never worked with such lousy paint in my life, but she'd bought the paint herself and was assured it was "good paint" by the clerk (like what he's say it was junk? he works there). And if that was a semi-gloss sheen, I will eat my best paint brush. 

She paid me for time spent and it cost her more than it would have if she'd just bought a decent paint. Next time when she wanted me to paint her newly remodeled kitchen while they were out of town she asked me what paint she should get. :thumbup:

A friend of mine recently commented that Behr had improved their paint, and while she's a fair painter she's more of a noob in that area than I am, so all the negative comments here have just saved me from even trying it next week when I repaint a bedroom in my house. I'll stick with Valspar or BM as always.

Thanks, y'all!


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## hyunelan2

I've used my fair share of DIY paints from Behr, Glidden, Pittsburgh, Ace, Wal-Mart (mostest horriblest). I just moved to Benjamin Moore for my last painting project (Babies' room), mostly because of the high praise found here. I will be putting on the 4th coat of BM Regal Select (in eggshell) this afternoon. After 3 coats I still have some coverage problems. I did this same room in 2 coats with Glidden. Granted, I'm now using a hard-to-cover-with yellow paint, but it is still taking just as many coats as it would if I used a cheapo paint... but at $45/gallon instead of $22.

For a DIYer with more time than money, I could see the argument for Behr.


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## user1007

hyunelan2 said:


> I've used my fair share of DIY paints from Behr, Glidden, Pittsburgh, Ace, Wal-Mart (mostest horriblest). I just moved to Benjamin Moore for my last painting project (Babies' room), mostly because of the high praise found here. I will be putting on the 4th coat of BM Regal Select (in eggshell) this afternoon. After 3 coats I still have some coverage problems. I did this same room in 2 coats with Glidden. Granted, I'm now using a hard-to-cover-with yellow paint, but it is still taking just as many coats as it would if I used a cheapo paint... but at $45/gallon instead of $22.
> 
> For a DIYer with more time than money, I could see the argument for Behr.


And as recommended on this site, you used what as a primer, tinted or not?


----------



## 95025

hyunelan2 said:


> I've used my fair share of DIY paints from Behr, Glidden, Pittsburgh, Ace, Wal-Mart (mostest horriblest). I just moved to Benjamin Moore for my last painting project (Babies' room), mostly because of the high praise found here. I will be putting on the 4th coat of BM Regal Select (in eggshell) this afternoon. After 3 coats I still have some coverage problems. I did this same room in 2 coats with Glidden. Granted, I'm now using a hard-to-cover-with yellow paint, but it is still taking just as many coats as it would if I used a cheapo paint... but at $45/gallon instead of $22.
> 
> For a DIYer with more time than money, I could see the argument for Behr.


There are a lot of situations for which the lower-cost paint would be the better choice. 

For professional painters - where time is money - that would not be the case. 

On the other hand - for instance - there are a lot of us who own rental property that will be entirely repainted every couple years. Using premium paint, in those situations, makes very little sense.


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## hyunelan2

sdsester said:


> And as recommended on this site, you used what as a primer, tinted or not?


I actually listened to the sales person and bought the Regal Select over BEN because it was "self priming." :jester: I was going to use Z-123 to prime and BEN to paint, but listened to the sales person who said I wouldn't need to do that if I used Regal Select. 



> *Product Description*
> 
> A premium-quality, 100% acrylic paint that combines the decorative beauty of an eggshell finish with excellent durability and ease of application.
> Regal Select is self-priming on most substrates.


I guess "most substrates" does not include previously painted walls.


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## user1007

DrHicks said:


> There are a lot of situations for which the lower-cost paint would be the better choice.
> 
> For professional painters - where time is money - that would not be the case.
> 
> On the other hand - for instance - there are a lot of us who own rental property that will be entirely repainted every couple years. Using premium paint, in those situations, makes very little sense.


I would still use the contractor grades of real paint store paint, and pay about the same as for absolute box store crap. If you paint that often, ask for a discount.


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## EmiliaL

hyunelan2 said:


> I've used my fair share of DIY paints from Behr, Glidden, Pittsburgh, Ace, Wal-Mart (mostest horriblest). I just moved to Benjamin Moore for my last painting project (Babies' room), mostly because of the high praise found here. I will be putting on the 4th coat of BM Regal Select (in eggshell) this afternoon. After 3 coats I still have some coverage problems. I did this same room in 2 coats with Glidden. Granted, I'm now using a hard-to-cover-with yellow paint, but it is still taking just as many coats as it would if I used a cheapo paint... but at $45/gallon instead of $22.
> 
> For a DIYer with more time than money, I could see the argument for Behr.


If you want to save money really I would suggest trying Valspar rather than Behr.

I used BM to paint my kitchen red (another color notorious for taking more than 2 coats) and it did take me 2 coats with a little touch up, but really covering a pastel peach with red, I would expect that with any color like red or a saturated yellow.

Some of it might be due to your painting style. My coats with a roller tend to be a little thinner than normal, because I don't like to go back and deal with the slop that comes from a heavy load of paint on a roller.

If I'm doing a hard-to-cover color I try to remind myself to be less skimpy with the paint than I normally would be, and then it works out as advertised.

I did a house entirely in Behr for a client who was just painting to move. I went into the house a few years later and though the house was kept up well, the paint was already starting to look dingy.


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## 95025

sdsester said:


> I would still use the contractor grades of real paint store paint, and pay about the same as for absolute box store crap. If you paint that often, ask for a discount.


There must be a lot of variance between stores, even with the same parent company.

First, I have never had any problem with Behr Paint, bought from my nearby Home Depot. Maybe I'm just lucky. Or maybe the local HD store has an exceptional paint department. It is very busy, so maybe their stock is turned frequently. I don't know.

Second, when I called & talked to the folks at the nearest SW Store, they were not at all accommodating. Maybe it's just the local store, or maybe I got them on a bad day. But telling me they "could probably" give me a 5% discount off the $55 per gallon price, if I bought 20 gallons or more of the same paint, is not going to make me a customer.

So I've continued to patronize the nearby HD, where I've always been perfectly satisfied with their paint, instead of driving an extra 20 minutes to a SW Store that really didn't act like they cared to have me as a customer.


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## chrisn

DrHicks said:


> There must be a lot of variance between stores, even with the same parent company.
> 
> First, I have never had any problem with Behr Paint, bought from my nearby Home Depot. Maybe I'm just lucky.:thumbsup: Or maybe the local HD store has an exceptional paint department. It is very busy, so maybe their stock is turned frequently. I don't know.
> 
> Second, when I called & talked to the folks at the nearest SW Store, they were not at all accommodating. Maybe it's just the local store, or maybe I got them on a bad day. But telling me they "could probably" give me a 5% discount off the $55 per gallon price, if I bought 20 gallons or more of the same paint, is not going to make me a customer.
> 
> So I've continued to patronize the nearby HD, where I've always been perfectly satisfied with their paint, instead of driving an extra 20 minutes to a SW Store that really didn't act like they cared to have me as a customer.


 
You said it, not me!:laughing:


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## 95025

chrisn said:


> You said it, not me!:laughing:


Could be. But we're talking hundreds of gallons of consistent luck.


I prefer to say that I'm a highly skilled, awesome painter!


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## Jackofall1

On coming out of semi retirement, I chose to work part time at the local HD and coinsidently in the paint department. Bored at home all day every day.

I will tell you that I serve many contractors and even more landlords and here is how I see it, at least up to now.

Behr has a loyal following of DIY'rs, landlords and contractors, from the comments I hear, its a love hate relationship. Some would never use it again, some say they will always use it.

I guess it depends on surface preparation, knowledge of sales person (big variable at HD), application techique and equipment.






Personally I haven't had the opportunity to use the products sold there yet and really don't know if I ever will.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark


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## jomama45

I'm no painting contractor but I am a landlord, and considering that I have an account at SW, I can actually buy Promar 200 cheaper than Behr. It goes on far better than my former experiences with the Behr as well. I can't think of one benefit of going to the HD rather than my local SW, other than the HD is open a little later, but I've yet to have an emergency painting situation where I needed to buy paint at 8:30 at night..........:whistling2:


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## 95025

Jackofall1 said:


> On coming out of semi retirement, I chose to work part time at the local HD and coinsidently in the paint department. Bored at home all day every day.
> 
> I will tell you that I serve many contractors and even more landlords and here is how I see it, at least up to now.
> 
> Behr has a loyal following of DIY'rs, landlords and contractors, from the comments I hear, its a love hate relationship. Some would never use it again, some say they will always use it.
> 
> I guess it depends on surface preparation,* knowledge of sales person (big variable at HD)*, application techique and equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I haven't had the opportunity to use the products sold there yet and really don't know if I ever will.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Mark


You hit on something very noteworthy in the part I *highlighted*. My experience at Home Depot is that there's a very inconsistent level of employee expertise. There are both temporarily laid-off professional plumbers, and dumb noob kids working in the same department. I suspect the same is true at Lowes & Menards.

It's probably no surprise that quality and customer service can be real hit & miss at the big box stores.


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## Matthewt1970

sdsester said:


> I would still use the contractor grades of real paint store paint, and pay about the same as for absolute box store crap. If you paint that often, ask for a discount.


With contractor grade at the mid $20 rand and Behr premium ultra super whatever topping $30 a gallon you are getting a better paint for cheaper.


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## chrisn

Jackofall1 said:


> On coming out of semi retirement, I chose to work part time at the local HD and coinsidently in the paint department. Bored at home all day every day.
> 
> I will tell you that I serve many contractors and even more landlords and here is how I see it, at least up to now.
> 
> Behr has a loyal following of DIY'rs, landlords and contractors, from the comments I hear, its a love hate relationship. Some would never use it again, some say they will always use it.
> 
> I guess it depends on surface preparation, knowledge of sales person (big variable at HD), application techique and equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I haven't had the opportunity to use the products sold there yet and really don't know if I ever will.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Mark


Painting contractors?? Or building contractors?

I personally have never seen a PAINTING contractor use this product

Maybe I am just lucky:whistling2:


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## Rock8Reno

I'm a DIY (but no slouch as my painting skills might surprise even the most experienced pros :ninja and I've used Behr for years without any issues don't even see how it's possible to get runs/sags when rolling flat paint, just how much you guys rolling on? I'm about to buy some SW to use on trim to see what all the hype is about. I could see using better quality paint for trim work, but flat/eggshell paint for walls? wow

I think the hate for BEHR stems from contractors hating anything and everything associated with DIY's. :yes: :laughing:


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## chrisBC

Actually contractor's don't hate Behr for the DIY aspect. Speaking for myself anyways, what annoys me is I see the DIY's buying it, meanwhile there are much better paints for the same price at paint stores, and I see HD making a killing off this paint that isn't all that great. Saying that I also believe prep and technique is key to a good paint job, as is a quality paint. (doesn't have to be premium quality though)

I have used Behr and other paints over the years, and while behr will do the job if you have to use it, personally I find it sloppy to work with a lot of the time, and I find the coverage is not as good as with a proper paint. And yes I know how to roll paint on a wall.


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## Matthewt1970

Rock8Reno said:


> I'm a DIY (but no slouch as my painting skills might surprise even the most experienced pros :ninja and I've used Behr for years without any issues don't even see how it's possible to get runs/sags when rolling flat paint, just how much you guys rolling on? I'm about to buy some SW to use on trim to see what all the hype is about. I could see using better quality paint for trim work, but flat/eggshell paint for walls? wow
> 
> I think the hate for BEHR stems from contractors hating anything and everything associated with DIY's. :yes: :laughing:


There is nothing DIY bout Behr that isn't the same with any other paint. If you haven't had any problems with Behr paint then consider yourself lucky.


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## mustangmike3789

i am new to this site and would have to agree with most that behr is garbage. key things to look for in a good paint would be spread rate, solids by volume type of resins,binders and pigments. you can find it on most cans of good quality paint because it is important to a pro not to buy a low solids paint. behr dooes not have this on there cans and it is hard to find a product data sheet on behr that will give you this important info. low solids means that to are buying a can full of thinner(water,xylene,mek) that will evaporate as the paint cures leaving you with a thin coat that will not cover well. that is why it takes so many coats of behr to get even coverage. most paints that i deal with are a minimum of 70% solids to 98%, you add your own thinner as recommended.(SW,PPG/PORTER,CARBOLINE INDUSTRIAL COATINGS) I may be wrong but from what have have found so far, behr may be as low as 30% solids. that means that you just spent good money on a can of watered down paint. also check wet to dry mils, this is a good way to find your solids by volume if it is not listed. if you have to applt 9 mils wet to achieve 2 mils dry, you probably have a can of behr


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## Gary in WA

Welcome to the forum, mustangmike3789!

I’m not a painter by trade, but your info intrigued me to do further research. I was able to find a Behr paint with data listed, 22% solids per volume and 28% solids per weight, less than 1/3….. with the gallon weighing 9.3#.

To compare; 
1. Behr- 22/28 @ 9.3#-------------------------0.95# of solids
2.Martha Stewart (S.W.)- 34/48 @ 10.5#--------2.15#
3. Valspar- 34/53 @ 11.7#-----------------------------3.35#
4. Sherwin Williams- 43/58 @ 11.3#------------2.95#
5. Benjamin Moore- 45/69 @ 11.3#----------2.95#
*Water weighs 8.35#

I got tired of researching after those. I use Valspar,
no complaints as I only used the Behr once, and that was given to me. Notice the Behr paint is not a flat ceiling paint rather a special paint, there is just not much info. on Behr..... makes you wonder what they are hiding.

http://www.behrpro.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/Int_Faux_Decorative_Finishes.pdf
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/96/968204b8-9360-4108-b7ab-f6ef31923c4a.pdf
http://www.valsparatlowes.com/expor...ra_Premium_Int_Ltx_Color_Changing_Ceiling.pdf
http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=650259104

Figuring the true cost of paint; http://www.pprc.org/pubs/factsheets/coatcost.html

http://cache.boston.com/globe/magazine/2-18/featurestory5.shtml

Gary


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## mustangmike3789

a good paint job should be around 2 - 6 mils dry film thickness(dft) per coat. if behr is 22% solids and you wanted an average of 3 mils(dft) per coat, you would need to apply it at about 13 mils wet film thickness(wft) vs valspar where you would only need to apply 9 mils wft to get the same 3 mils dft. that is why you waste money and application time buying cheap paint. this means that a gallon of behr should cover 117sq ft and the valspar will cover 181sq ft @ 3mils dft. depending on substraight and application with no waste factored in.


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## rtoni

GBR in WA said:


> I was able to find a Behr paint with data listed, 22% solids per volume and 28% solids per weight, less than 1/3….. with the gallon weighing 9.3#.
> To compare;
> 1. Behr- 22/28 @ 9.3#-------------------------0.95# of solids


Still following the thread that never ends here, and the discussion getting interesting again, especially with the data from MustangMike and the follow-on number crunching by Gary. Behr is sure taking a beating. But - and I'm probably missing something (what else is new) - I'm not understanding how 28% (by weight) of a 9.3# can = 0.95# ? Probably just need a sanity check here...


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## Sprayboy

This partially explains why it runs so much when sprayed. Painting with Valspar contractor 2000 at the moment and it covers twice as good as Behr.


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## hyunelan2

rtoni said:


> I'm not understanding how 28% (by weight) of a 9.3# can = 0.95# ? Probably just need a sanity check here...


It looks like he just took the weight of the can and subtracted out the weight of 1 gallon of water (8.35), rather than the calculated percentage of weight. This would not be accurate because there are other things in there that weigh more/less than water, and there is not an entire gallon of water in the can.

Here is a recalculation based on weight, using the numbers above.

1. Behr- 22/28 @ 9.3#-------------------------2.604# of solids
2.Martha Stewart (S.W.)- 34/48 @ 10.5#--------5.04#
3. Valspar- 34/53 @ 11.7#-----------------------------6.201#
4. Sherwin Williams- 43/58 @ 11.3#------------6.554#
5. Benjamin Moore- 45/69 @ 11.3#----------7.797#


Here are 2 more ways of looking at the data:


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## ccarlisle

Befor you get all cranked up about this, make sure you are comparing _latex paints_ of one brand to _latex paints_ of another - which is not the case here. 

For example, I noticed a comparison of a glaze versus a paint...:no:


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## Windows

Rock8Reno said:


> I'm a DIY (but no slouch as my painting skills might surprise even the most experienced pros :ninja and I've used Behr for years without any issues don't even see how it's possible to get runs/sags when rolling flat paint, just how much you guys rolling on? I'm about to buy some SW to use on trim to see what all the hype is about. I could see using better quality paint for trim work, but flat/eggshell paint for walls? wow
> 
> I think the hate for BEHR stems from contractors hating anything and everything associated with DIY's. :yes: :laughing:


I have seen some DIY paint jobs that were pretty good for DIY paint jobs, but if you think you compare the most experienced painters, then I humbly suggest that you don't know what you do not know.


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## 95025

Windows said:


> I have seen some DIY paint jobs that were pretty good for DIY paint jobs, but if you think you compare the most experienced painters, then I humbly suggest that you don't know what you do not know.


There are excellent professional painters, and there are punks - pretty much like every profession. I've seen the work of both.

One thing we're not talking about here is the fact that this is a* DIY Forum*, which implies that most of the people here are not spending the money to have everything "professionally" done - hence the DIY thingy. 

My wife & I choose to do all our own painting, recently spending $50-$75 to paint our 14x22 Living Room (9' ceiling), versus the average of $1+ per square foot by a professional. That is our choice to make, and I can give you a 100% guarantee that you can't tell the difference in the finished product.


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## Sprayboy

The most important thing is substrate. I guarantee you a professional drywaller will give you a much smoother surface to paint than any DIYer. If you have a good surface it then comes down to product and technique. Since I rebuild and repair sprayers I know painters that can cut-in an edge that you would be so frustrated trying to replicate you would put a bullet in your head! And that's all I'm going to say about that! :wink:


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## Ole34

Sprayboy said:


> I know painters that can cut-in an edge that you would be so frustrated trying to replicate you would put a bullet in your head! And that's all I'm going to say about that! :wink:


you dont know me then ..............let me introduce myself

I AM THE BADDEST MAN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD WITH A PAINT BRUSH


http://www.youtube.com/embed/TcA5hYffC7g










.................................................................................................................................................


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## 95025

Sprayboy said:


> The most important thing is substrate. I guarantee you a professional drywaller will give you a much smoother surface to paint than any DIYer. If you have a good surface it then comes down to product and technique. Since I rebuild and repair sprayers I know painters that can cut-in an edge that you would be so frustrated trying to replicate you would put a bullet in your head! And that's all I'm going to say about that! :wink:


Absolutely! There are professionals whose work is beyond phenomenal. In fact, most who have been at their trade for very long fit that category! 

On the other hand, there are some "professionals" whose work looks like it was a Special Olympics event. One of my sons had just such a professional texture the ceiling in his upstairs last summer. The best thing I can say about the work is that it shouldn't be too difficult to strip it off and do the job right.


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## Ole34

DrHicks said:


> My wife & I choose to do all our own painting, recently spending $50-$75 to paint our 14x22 Living Room (9' ceiling), versus the average of $1+ per square foot by a professional. That is our choice to make, and I can give you a 100% guarantee that you can't tell the difference in the finished product.


are you saying that if you and I each painted a room there would be NO difference in the finished product ??? .............


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## 95025

Ole34 said:


> are you saying that if you and I each painted a room there would be NO difference in the finished product ??? .............


That depends on how well you paint. You'll also notice that I said, "My wife & I..."


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## Gary in WA

I did an addition to my post about the Behr, then I read some others caught it, good job. Where/why do they hide the numbers, are there any Behr reps out there as members so we can get an accurate number, please?

Let's try to keep this on topic,please.

Gary


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## bofusmosby

GBR in WA said:


> Where/why do they hide the numbers, are there any Behr reps out there as members so we can get an accurate number, please?


Funny you should ask. A few years back, there was one that made a few posts here on this thread. I contacted this person about a complaint I had. This person told me that he (she) would relay my concerns to the appropriate person, and that they would get in touch with me. Funny, I never heard back from anyone.:laughing:


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## 95025

bofusmosby said:


> Funny you should ask. A few years back, there was one that made a few posts here on this thread. I contacted this person about a complaint I had. This person told me that he (she) would relay my concerns to the appropriate person, and that they would get in touch with me. Funny, I never heard back from anyone.:laughing:


If I remember correctly, there used to be several people on this forum who claimed to be "experts working at the Home Depot at..". They regularly posted on various topics.

Did they get banned, or just shamed away, or what?


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## user1007

Hate to say it but at the end of the day, Home Depot doesn't give a rat's posterior about forum posts like in this thread. Their marketing campaign for Behr is so highly successful they simply do not care. And for as long as this thread has been running how many people who must read it go out and buy the crap anyhow (I guess it is refreshing that many seem to report back they should have listened)? 

Ladies and gentlemen who love and use real paint as DIYers or pros like some of us were. We are making no difference. The lemmings walk in, see the pretty display, grab a bag of 30 brushes for $10, and rolls of painter's tape, and maybe a cap too look cool, and all reason we might have instilled disappears. 

And while HD is an obvious easy target, all the box store paint is crap. But for most I suppose it is acceptable. You can always by a cheap framed poster instead of a real piece of art to hang over mistakes. And Menard's usually has some of the best prices around on ground coffee. And if only Lowe's had a fish and meat counter?

"Good enough for mil spec" was a joke we used to use in a past life. I guess it's current incarnation would be something like "good enough for consumer tastes and respect for quality and craftsmanship."


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## rtoni

DrHicks said:


> There are excellent professional painters, and there are punks - pretty much like every profession. I've seen the work of both.


Amen, brother. Just heard another ad not too long ago for a "2-day Licensed Contractor boot camp". Guaranteed to pass, or your money back.

Knew a guy several years ago who took a 1 week investment professional crash course - no financial background whatsoever - next week he's got his "certification" and he's cold calling clients asking them to turn over their life savings. Some did.

I could go on - but already off topic.

Sometimes I'm a DIY 'cause I like the challenge, sometimes it's just out of necessity ($), and sometimes it's just out of fear.


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## 95025

rtoni said:


> Amen, brother. Just heard another ad not too long ago for a "2-day Licensed Contractor boot camp". Guaranteed to pass, or your money back.
> 
> *Knew a guy several years ago who took a 1 week investment professional crash course - no financial background whatsoever - next week he's got his "certification" and he's cold calling clients asking them to turn over their life savings. Some did..*


I'm going to take an educated guess and say... A.L. Williams? 



Anyway... back to bashing Behr Paint.


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## rtoni

DrHicks said:


> I'm going to take an educated guess and say... A.L. Williams?


I only wish... :laughing:


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## Matthewt1970

DrHicks said:


> If I remember correctly, there used to be several people on this forum who claimed to be "experts working at the Home Depot at..". They regularly posted on various topics.
> 
> Did they get banned, or just shamed away, or what?


They stumble in here from time to time trying to boost up their product and image but have to tuck tail and run.


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> They stumble in here from time to time trying to boost up their product and image but have to tuck tail and run.


I wondered if the moderators banned them.


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## kwikfishron

DrHicks said:


> If I remember correctly, there used to be several people on this forum who claimed to be "experts working at the Home Depot at..". They regularly posted on various topics.
> 
> Did they get banned, or just shamed away, or what?


There’s at least one still around, posted 9 times yesterday.

No post in Painting though.:huh:


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## DangerMouse

Nope, Nathan allows them to an extent, as long as they FOLLOW THE RULES. 

I removed this new guy's signature earlier today... Post #3 http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/old-chipped-new-paint-101399/

Personally, I do not feel they should be allowed here at all.

DM


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## Matthewt1970

I seem to remember the one guy coming in trying to claim they were addressing the issues people were facing with the paint. He made 1 or 2 posts and we never heard back from him after the countless complaints.


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## bofusmosby

Matthewt1970 said:


> I seem to remember the one guy coming in trying to claim they were addressing the issues people were facing with the paint. He made 1 or 2 posts and we never heard back from him after the countless complaints.


Yeah, he really opened up a can of worms for sure.:laughing:


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## mustangmike3789

is that the same as opening a can of behr


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## user1007

Worms have less water content than Behr paint. And I would never use a can of Behr as bait.


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## bofusmosby

sdsester said:


> Worms have less water content than Behr paint. And I would never use a can of Behr as bait.


Maybe we should grind up a can of worms, and paint the house with that!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Dawn Goodwin

I am also a victim of Behr Paints-we bought the primer & paint-13 gallons later on less than 1600 sq ft home a 4th coat is needed on prepped plaster walls-ARE YOU KIDDING ME? NEVER NEVER again will I use or recommend Behr paint or their products!! Thanks again Behr for the LOSS of MANY MANY hours on our home!


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## 95025

Dawn Goodwin said:


> I am also a victim of Behr Paints-we bought the primer & paint-13 gallons later on less than 1600 sq ft home a 4th coat is needed on prepped plaster walls-ARE YOU KIDDING ME? NEVER NEVER again will I use or recommend Behr paint or their products!! Thanks again Behr for the LOSS of MANY MANY hours on our home!


There is more to this story than is being told.


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## Dawn Goodwin

There is no more to report on this story Dr Hicks-I did do everything that was recommended- there are no threats-I have used Behr paints for many years & after this year & experience will no longer be using or recommending Behr paint. Thanks for your comment or so you would have it- your concern!


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## Sprayboy

The paint/primer in one is a joke and you should know that. the only possible way to use that product is on walls of similar color in good shape. THE RULE IS: One coat primer and two coats finish. Period, end of story. If your are not doing at least that then you cannot gripe about results. :whistling2:


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> There is more to this story than is being told.


Yes, I would agree. Here is the rest of the story. Behr paints are horrible products. Cheap pigments, cheap resins and cheap results at a high price. Defend it all you want. There are much better products on the market at a better cost and less hassle. HD markets this stuff so well and people fall for it. I have used behr on a few occasions because that is what the customer insisted on. My end results were ok but they could have been much better with a better product. I just don't get why anyone would pay highend paint prices for a poor product


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> Yes, I would agree. Here is the rest of the story. *Behr paints are horrible products.* Cheap pigments, cheap resins and cheap results at a high price. Defend it all you want. There are much better products on the market at a better cost and less hassle. HD markets this stuff so well and people fall for it. I have used behr on a few occasions because that is what the customer insisted on. My end results were ok but they could have been much better with a better product. I just don't get why anyone would pay highend paint prices for a poor product


Sorry, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. Behr is an average product at an average cost. Millions of people use Behr Paint, and don't have any problems with it. Other people don't like it at all.

Are there better products on the market? Absolutely. Does everybody need to, or want to, use the highest-end products on the market? Absolutely not.

The #1 cause of paint failure/problems is operator error. Lack of proper surface prep, painting wet wood, etc. No question.

And prices? Behr's prices are "high end"? Really? Ace Hardware sells BM paint for $69 per gallon. The highest price I have ever seen for Behr Paint is $32 per gallon. I guess you use a different kind of math than I do.


By the way, I've only used Behr primer/paint one time. It was on a new shed I built, and was running out of time in the fall, so I one-coated the thing with Behr Ultra-Premium (or whatever they call it). The stuff rolled on wonderfully, covered completely in 1 coat, and still looks fantastic. Apparently all Behr products DON'T suck. Either that, or you just have to be a good enough painter to get it on right.


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> Sorry, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. Behr is an average product at an average cost. Millions of people use Behr Paint, and don't have any problems with it. Other people don't like it at all.
> 
> Are there better products on the market? Absolutely. Does everybody need to, or want to, use the highest-end products on the market? Absolutely not.
> no one is suggesting to buy the highest end or highest priced paint on the market. only suggesting that there are better products for the same price with less problems.mike
> The #1 cause of paint failure/problems is operator error. Lack of proper surface prep, painting wet wood, etc. No question.
> you are correct. 75% of all coating failures are due to surface prep, the number is probably higher that that but applicator error plays in at that point too.mike
> And prices? Behr's prices are "high end"? Really? Ace Hardware sells BM paint for $69 per gallon. The highest price I have ever seen for Behr Paint is $32 per gallon. I guess you use a different kind of math than I do.
> you are correct again. i do figure my math differently than you. i dont compare price per gallon. i compare spread rate, price per sqft and longevity between recoats. now you can figure your price per gallon and look at the OP,"four coats, are you kidding me". how much does that cost per gallon/ time and labor. $69 per gallon with 2 coats or $32 per gallon with 4 coats. mike
> 
> By the way, I've only used Behr primer/paint one time. It was on a new shed I built, and was running out of time in the fall, so I one-coated the thing with Behr Ultra-Premium (or whatever they call it). The stuff rolled on wonderfully, covered completely in 1 coat, and still looks fantastic. Apparently all Behr products DON'T suck. Either that, or you just have to be a good enough painter to get it on right.


 oh dont pretend like you dont know what its called. you work for home depot dont you. mike:wink:


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> oh dont pretend like you dont know what its called. you work for home depot dont you. mike:wink:


Hardly.

HD happens to be the only lumber yard/home store within a reasonable driving distance, so that's where I end up. But I'd much rather live near a Menards or Lowes. Preferably Menards, because they sell groceries!


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## Matthewt1970

DrHicks said:


> Sorry, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. Behr is an average product at an average cost. Millions of people use Behr Paint, and don't have any problems with it. Other people don't like it at all.
> 
> Are there better products on the market? Absolutely. Does everybody need to, or want to, use the highest-end products on the market? Absolutely not.
> 
> The #1 cause of paint failure/problems is operator error. Lack of proper surface prep, painting wet wood, etc. No question.
> 
> And prices? Behr's prices are "high end"? Really? Ace Hardware sells BM paint for $69 per gallon. The highest price I have ever seen for Behr Paint is $32 per gallon. I guess you use a different kind of math than I do.
> 
> 
> By the way, I've only used Behr primer/paint one time. It was on a new shed I built, and was running out of time in the fall, so I one-coated the thing with Behr Ultra-Premium (or whatever they call it). The stuff rolled on wonderfully, covered completely in 1 coat, and still looks fantastic. Apparently all Behr products DON'T suck. Either that, or you just have to be a good enough painter to get it on right.


You have used it once. That is hardly enough to judge. I have used it plenty and seen it's failure rate. There are plenty of horror stories of it's performance on the net.


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## 95025

Matthewt1970 said:


> You have used it once. That is hardly enough to judge. I have used it plenty and seen it's failure rate. There are plenty of horror stories of it's performance on the net.


You'll notice that I did not say I was a huge fan, nor did I say I was going to use it again. I said it worked well for me.

Also, as MustangMike has begrudgingly admitted, the overwhelming majority of all "paint failures" is a result of poor surface preparation and/or application. 

A couple months ago, one of the "professionals" here was ranting about how EVERY TIME he used Behr Paint, he got sags & runs. EVERY TIME! Really? I guess it's easier for him to blame the paint, than admit that he's throwing it on the wall like pudding.


Again, I'm not a huge Behr Paint fan. At best, it's an average paint. But stupidity really disgusts me - and that's what the overwhelming majority of the "We Hate Behr Paint Fan Club" rants here amount to. If it was as horrible a product as you all claim it is, the company would have gone out of business. No amount of advertising can overcompensate for a 95%-100% failure rate.


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## jomama45

DrHicks said:


> Again, I'm not a huge Behr Paint fan. At best, it's an average paint. But stupidity really disgusts me - and that's what the overwhelming majority of the "We Hate Behr Paint Fan Club" rants here amount to. If it was as horrible a product as you all claim it is, the company would have gone out of business. *No amount of advertising can overcompensate for a 95%-100% failure rate.*


Where did you pull that number from? Even a 10-20% failure rate is enough for me to call a product inferior, but obviously that's subject to one's opine.

I still can't see why anyone would feel so compelled to buy this stuff, other than ease because it's at the same big box store that they are already at, when there's far better VALUE out there in paint..................


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## 95025

jomama45 said:


> Where did you pull that number from? Even a 10-20% failure rate is enough for me to call a product inferior, but obviously that's subject to one's opine.
> 
> I still can't see why anyone would feel so compelled to buy this stuff, other than ease because it's at the same big box store that they are already at, when there's far better VALUE out there in paint..................


Do you feel that same way about Dutch Boy, Valspar, Glidden, Pratt & Lambert, and Pittsburgh paints?


And for the record, what I'm saying is that Behr Paint CANNOT be as bad as our "WE HATE BEHR PAINT FAN CLUB" members claim. It simply cannot be that bad, or the company would not still be in business. Behr Paint would have gone the route of the Yugo.


----------



## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> Sorry, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. Behr is an average product at an average cost. Millions of people use Behr Paint, and don't have any problems with it. Other people don't like it at all.
> 
> Are there better products on the market? Absolutely. Does everybody need to, or want to, use the highest-end products on the market? Absolutely not.
> 
> The #1 cause of paint failure/problems is operator error. Lack of proper surface prep, painting wet wood, etc. No question.
> 
> And prices? Behr's prices are "high end"? Really? Ace Hardware sells BM paint for $69 per gallon. The highest price I have ever seen for Behr Paint is $32 per gallon. I guess you use a different kind of math than I do.
> 
> 
> By the way, I've only used Behr primer/paint one time. It was on a new shed I built, and was running out of time in the fall, so I one-coated the thing with Behr Ultra-Premium (or whatever they call it). The stuff rolled on wonderfully, covered completely in 1 coat, and still looks fantastic. Apparently all Behr products DON'T suck. Either that, or you just have to be a good enough painter to get it on right.





DrHicks said:


> Hardly.
> 
> HD happens to be the only lumber yard/home store within a reasonable driving distance, so that's where I end up. But I'd much rather live near a Menards or Lowes. Preferably Menards, because they sell groceries!


 wow, paint, lumber and groceries. i see said the blind man. i've been through nebraska. aint much going on there. im not ragging on you because i lived in cheyenne, aint much going on there either. at one point years ago, i thought that CUSTOM BLEND thinset & grout from HD was the **** because it was from HD and they were the new thing in town compaired to the place that i had to deal with before. was i wrong. i started going to a real tile store and used some real thinset & grout (mapei), what a difference. mixed good, spread good, and it bonded great. what was f'd up is that it was the same price. same thing goes for paint. if you are in the industry and you use a certain brand of paint, that is what you think the results should be. the first time i went to a real paint store, i thought that they were trying to rip me off until i actually applied the product. does behr paint work? sure it does. is there better paints that out preform it for the same price. absolutely. i went into the tile business for myself and was an installer for LOWES and HD for a while. the money was good but the products were horrible. LOWES did start carrying MAPEI toward the end of my venture. i found that the CUSTOM BLEND thinsets and grouts were full of sand (cheap filler) and difficult to work with compaired to my new discovery. now that im in the coatings industry, i have found that certain coatings outperform others by a long shot. cost has nothing to do with it (i dont buy the paint or pay for it in any way). i was a PPG man for years until i started using SW. i didnt like dealing with the SW in my town because i thought that there products were over priced and there service was bad. again, was i wrong. i still like PPG but i have started to lean toward SW. who says that there is no true one coat paint. (SW class 5 concrete texture coat). no ****!


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> wow, paint, lumber and groceries. i see said the blind man. i've been through nebraska. aint much going on there. im not ragging on you because i lived in cheyenne, aint much going on there either. at one point years ago, i thought that CUSTOM BLEND thinset & grout from HD was the **** because it was from HD and they were the new thing in town compaired to the place that i had to deal with before. was i wrong. i started going to a real tile store and used some real thinset & grout (mapei), what a difference. mixed good, spread good, and it bonded great. what was f'd up is that it was the same price. same thing goes for paint. if you are in the industry and you use a certain brand of paint, that is what you think the results should be. the first time i went to a real paint store, i thought that they were trying to rip me off until i actually applied the product. does behr paint work? sure it does. is there better paints that out preform it for the same price. absolutely. i went into the tile business for myself and was an installer for LOWES and HD for a while. the money was good but the products were horrible. LOWES did start carrying MAPEI toward the end of my venture. i found that the CUSTOM BLEND thinsets and grouts were full of sand (cheap filler) and difficult to work with compaired to my new discovery. now that im in the coatings industry, i have found that certain coatings outperform others by a long shot. cost has nothing to do with it (i dont buy the paint or pay for it in any way). i was a PPG man for years until i started using SW. i didnt like dealing with the SW in my town because i thought that there products were over priced and there service was bad. again, was i wrong. i still like PPG but i have started to lean toward SW. who says that there is no true one coat paint. (SW class 5 concrete texture coat). no ****!


What does Nebraska, or Omaha, have to do with anything? You also might want to come up to speed on your understanding of nuanced humor.

And yeah, of course, it's not hard to know that mixing your own Thinset is much better than the bucket stuff. Even so, as with paint, the _overwhelming majority_ of failure with tiled floors & walls is "operator error." Are you going to try to deny that? 


Again, I tried to work with this great god you refer to as SW Paint, despite the fact that the nearest store was a long ways away. Frankly, the people there were a-holes. Do you suppose that might explain why the store is now closed? So much for superior customer service.


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## ccarlisle

I'm with Mike on this - but, having been in the supply side, my opinions come at it from perhaps a different angle: the formulation side, with raw materials costs and marketing thrown in. Mind you I do a fair amount of painting (nowhere near the others though) and I have also used Behr paints once...a first and last time.

And incidentally, anyone who says someone else is "dead wrong" about painting is deluding himself into thinking he has "the answer"; arguing with these people is pointless and any time spent discussing it is a complete waste of time, even if you're doing nothing. 

However, where this other guy is right is where he states that 'millions of people buy Behr paint'; they do, but the number of purchasers says nothing, apart from someone has done a good job of marketing to unknowing people, says nothing about the cost per job that those same people ignore. See, these people are easy to please, are the 'masses' to whom the term "mass-marketing" applies - and no-one disputes their existence. These people don't read this forum, but spend lots of time in front of TV's feeling good about outwitting a 5th grader. They do however, 'get it' that saving $10 on an gallon of Behr paint doing a simple job over again is better than spending the $10 and doing it right, probably because that same $10 will buy an extra two Big Macs for lunch. 

Those are proven to be their priorities. LOL...."the dumbing-down of America" alright...that's my personal take, so go ahead tell me I am 'dead wrong' too, if you like.

BTW the current HD flyer in my city shows Behr Premium Ultra, interior flat enamel paint-and-primer in one selling for C$43.97 per gallon, whereas the same brand exterior paint, sells for $46.97/gallon..now their acrylic regular paints (i.e the one that are NOT primer+paint together) sell for $34/gallon...I buy BM for that.


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> You'll notice that I did not say I was a huge fan, nor did I say I was going to use it again. I said it worked well for me.
> 
> Also, as MustangMike has begrudgingly admitted, the overwhelming majority of all "paint failures" is a result of poor surface preparation and/or application.
> 
> A couple months ago, one of the "professionals" here was ranting about how EVERY TIME he used Behr Paint, he got sags & runs. EVERY TIME! Really? I guess it's easier for him to blame the paint, than admit that he's throwing it on the wall like pudding.
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not a huge Behr Paint fan. At best, it's an average paint. But stupidity really disgusts me - and that's what the overwhelming majority of the "We Hate Behr Paint Fan Club" rants here amount to. If it was as horrible a product as you all claim it is, the company would have gone out of business. No amount of advertising can overcompensate for a 95%-100% failure rate.


 TACO BELL has been selling "beef tacos" for many years even though the FDA grades their BEEF as CLASS C MEAT PRODUCT. full of oatmeal (cheap filler).they are still in business and they sell a **** load of "beef tacos".


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> TACO BELL has been selling "beef tacos" for many years even though the FDA grades their BEEF as CLASS C MEAT PRODUCT. full of oatmeal (cheap filler).they are still in business and they sell a **** load of "beef tacos".


...and now you've relegated yourself to tossing out completely irrelevant tripe.


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> I'm with Mike on this - but, having been in the supply side, my opinions come at it from perhaps a different angle: the formulation side, with raw materials costs and marketing thrown in. Mind you I do a fair amount of painting (nowhere near the others though) and I have also used Behr paints once...a first and last time.
> 
> And incidentally, anyone who says someone else is "dead wrong" about painting is deluding himself into thinking he has "the answer"; arguing with these people is pointless and any time spent discussing it is a complete waste of time, even if you're doing nothing.
> 
> However, where this other guy is right is where he states that 'millions of people buy Behr paint'; they do, but the number of purchasers says nothing, apart from someone has done a good job of marketing to unknowing people, says nothing about the cost per job that those same people ignore. See, these people are easy to please, are the 'masses' to whom the term "mass-marketing" applies - and no-one disputes their existence. These people don't read this forum, but spend lots of time in front of TV's feeling good about outwitting a 5th grader. They do however, 'get it' that saving $10 on an gallon of Behr paint doing a simple job over again is better than spending the $10 and doing it right, probably because that same $10 will buy an extra two Big Macs for lunch.
> 
> Those are proven to be their priorities. LOL...."the dumbing-down of America" alright...that's my personal take, so go ahead tell me I am 'dead wrong' too, if you like.
> 
> BTW the current HD flyer in my city shows Behr Premium Ultra, interior flat enamel paint-and-primer in one selling for C$43.97 per gallon, whereas the same brand exterior paint, sells for $46.97/gallon..now their acrylic regular paints (i.e the one that are NOT primer+paint together) sell for $34/gallon...I buy BM for that.


Have you EVER - even once - found me claiming that Behr is some premium, top-end product? I'll make it simple for you. The answer is, "no."

But I'm sick of the brain-dead, mob-mentality, Behr-sucks mantra that is so prevalent here. It's like an elementary school playground, complete with the bullies trying to intimidate everyone. Obviously, you can't be a member of the "cool club" without pledging to needlessly badmouth Behr Paint at every opportunity. Funny that you guys never badmouth all the other mid-grade paints. Only Behr. I have to wonder why.

Your claim that Behr Paint still being in business is a result of the "dumbing down" of Americans is very interesting - and incredibly arrogant. Frankly, I'm more inclined to use 1 gallon of primer & 1 gallon of paint (total of $50) to paint a room, than to pay a "professional" $650 to paint the same room. In my mind that's pretty smart.


And it's nice that you can buy BM for a greatly discounted price. Apparently you work with a paint store where they _aren't_ complete a-holes. But that was not my experience at the SW Store. A 5% discount on $60 per gallon paint is not adequate, nor is the sniveling attitude that came with it. Perhaps that's why said store is now closed.


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## mustangmike3789

ccarlisle said:


> I'm with Mike on this - but, having been in the supply side, my opinions come at it from perhaps a different angle: the formulation side, with raw materials costs and marketing thrown in. Mind you I do a fair amount of painting (nowhere near the others though) and I have also used Behr paints once...a first and last time.
> 
> And incidentally, anyone who says someone else is "dead wrong" about painting is deluding himself into thinking he has "the answer"; arguing with these people is pointless and any time spent discussing it is a complete waste of time, even if you're doing nothing.
> 
> However, where this other guy is right is where he states that 'millions of people buy Behr paint'; they do, but the number of purchasers says nothing, apart from someone has done a good job of marketing to unknowing people, says nothing about the cost per job that those same people ignore. See, these people are easy to please, are the 'masses' to whom the term "mass-marketing" applies - and no-one disputes their existence. These people don't read this forum, but spend lots of time in front of TV's feeling good about outwitting a 5th grader. They do however, 'get it' that saving $10 on an gallon of Behr paint doing a simple job over again is better than spending the $10 and doing it right, probably because that same $10 will buy an extra two Big Macs for lunch.
> 
> Those are proven to be their priorities. LOL...."the dumbing-down of America" alright...that's my personal take, so go ahead tell me I am 'dead wrong' too, if you like.
> 
> BTW the current HD flyer in my city shows Behr Premium Ultra, interior flat enamel paint-and-primer in one selling for C$43.97 per gallon, whereas the same brand exterior paint, sells for $46.97/gallon..now their acrylic regular paints (i.e the one that are NOT primer+paint together) sell for $34/gallon...I buy BM for that.


 you are a very intelligent person. not because you agreed with me on a point but because i have read you post and have had some heated discussions with you and dr. hicks.( intelligent also). you have broken down chemical compositions that i dont even know about. i had a crusty old chemical scientist as an instructor in my NACE class. he made paints for 50 years and would draw out the atomic breakdowns of paint on the chalk board. could he apply these paints? probably not, but the book says that he is right. a top fuel dragster will travel the 1/4 mile in 4.42 sec @ 337 mph. if these guys followed the CHILTON MANUAL on how to build a motor, i dont think that we would see these ET's or speeds:whistling2:. 50 degrees of timing on a gas engine,8000 + hp, 50+ lbs of boost, nitromethane??? this should'nt work! you cant always go by the book. behr paint works but i bet that it doesnt most times. all we hear about is the hype (advertising). how many people find these sites and complain? how many of those cars acheive those speeds. SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE THINGS WORK SOMETIMES.


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## mustangmike3789

mustangmike3789 said:


> you are a very intelligent person. not because you agreed with me on a point but because i have read you post and have had some heated discussions with you and dr. hicks.( intelligent also). you have broken down chemical compositions that i dont even know about. i had a crusty old chemical scientist as an instructor in my NACE class. he made paints for 50 years and would draw out the atomic breakdowns of paint on the chalk board. could he apply these paints? probably not, but the book says that he is right. a top fuel dragster will travel the 1/4 mile in 4.42 sec @ 337 mph. if these guys followed the CHILTON MANUAL on how to build a motor, i dont think that we would see these ET's or speeds:whistling2:. 50 degrees of timing on a gas engine,8000 + hp, 50+ lbs of boost, nitromethane??? this should'nt work! you cant always go by the book. behr paint works but i bet that it doesnt most times. all we hear about is the hype (advertising). how many people find these sites and complain? how many of those cars acheive those speeds. SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE THINGS WORK SOMETIMES.


 quoting myself again with completly irrealivant tripe. im not backing a brand. how can we give good advise but not detour people from bad products. just doesnt make since.


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## 95025

As long as we're on this relentless topic of bashing Behr Paint, it seems appropriate to make (re-make) several simple observations.

1. Being a professional means that you get paid to do something. It doesn't necessarily mean you're good at it. Long term, the bad professionals tend to get weeded out. But not always. Advice from professionals, as well as others, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It is not objective.

2. Almost all professional painters (at least here) get paid by the job, not by the hour. Job bids are calculated using - first and foremost - square footage. Going rate is roughly $1 per square foot. The more square feet a painter can cover in an hour, the better - at least for said painter. 

3. Professional painters want to use paint that will go on fastest, and require the least amount of time from them. It makes perfect sense.

4. Professional painters pass the cost of the paint on to their clients. In fact, most buy at contractor price and sell at list price. This means they're _making_ money on not only their labor, but also the paint they retail.


The advice of professional painters is going to be best for professional painters, but not necessarily best for consumers, or DIYers. Everything has to be understood in its proper context.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> quoting myself again with completly irrealivant tripe. im not backing a brand. how can we give good advise but not detour people from bad products. just doesnt make since.


Why have I not heard you say one single bad thing about Valspar, Dutch Boy, Pittsburgh, Sears, or any other mid-grade paint?


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> a top fuel dragster will travel the 1/4 mile in 4.42 sec @ 337 mph. if these guys followed the CHILTON MANUAL on how to build a motor, i dont think that we would see these ET's or speeds:whistling2:. 50 degrees of timing on a gas engine,8000 + hp, 50+ lbs of boost, nitromethane??? this should'nt work! you cant always go by the book. behr paint works but i bet that it doesnt most times. all we hear about is the hype (advertising). how many people find these sites and complain? how many of those cars acheive those speeds. SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE THINGS WORK SOMETIMES.


So... Using this logic, every single person needs to either drive a top-fuel dragster, or nothing. I guess I need to park my VW Golf, because it won't go 337 mph.

It's all or nothing.


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> Why have I not heard you say one single bad thing about Valspar, Dutch Boy, Pittsburgh, Sears, or any other mid-grade paint?


 you and i had a dicussion about the olympic and true value paint that i had to use. olympic sucked, true value worked pretty good. i told you that i have had success with behr. IMO, it is a bad product over all. poor coverage, spread rate, duability and workability. the olympic product that i used was much worse that the behr IMO. i would not recommend either of them but since this a behr paint thread and because most people comment on behr here would be the reason that i am bashing. there is a lot of other paints out there that people have problems with. when people buy a cheap "off brand" paint and have problems with it they can say to themselves " i should have bought a better paint" and accept the failure. HD advertises behr as a superior product and charge for it too. so when failures occure after all of the hype, people get pissed. have you ever felt that you have been ripped off. i have and it sucks (comic book x-ray glasses/ sea monkeys) lots of bells and whistles. i feel that this is the reason why people come here to complain. they feel that they were mislead.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> you and i had a dicussion about the olympic and true value paint that i had to use. olympic sucked, true value worked pretty good. i told you that i have had success with behr. IMO, it is a bad product over all. poor coverage, spread rate, duability and workability. the olympic product that i used was much worse that the behr IMO. i would not recommend either of them but since this a behr paint thread and because most people comment on behr here would be the reason that i am bashing. there is a lot of other paints out there that people have problems with. when people buy a cheap "off brand" paint and have problems with it they can say to themselves " i should have bought a better paint" and accept the failure. HD advertises behr as a superior product and charge for it too. so when failures occure after all of the hype, people get pissed. have you ever felt that you have been ripped off. i have and it sucks (comic book x-ray glasses/ sea monkeys) lots of bells and whistles. i feel that this is the reason why people come here to complain. they feel that they were mislead.


Fair enough. Thank you.

Behr Paint is yet another of those mid-grade paints. I don't buy it because I love it. I buy it because the HD store is the only place, within reasonable driving distance, where I can get paint. Even then, I often buy elsewhere. 

I have never, not even once, had a problem with any of the Behr Paint I've used. But without question, lots of people have had lots of problems with Behr. Those problems could have a lot to do with the high school kid, at the paint counter, not knowing what he/she is doing. I also wonder if, in some HD Stores, they don't sell much paint, and you may be buying paint that's 3-4 years old. Behr also seems to have a real problem with consistent quality.

Even so, I'd love to have a good SW or BM Paint Store nearby. If they were good people, and reasonable to work with, I'd buy all my paint there. But that's not the case.


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## Sprayboy

You can hardly equate Behr paint with the Yugo. There was a lot of government pressure to squish the Yugo because municipalities everywhere where experiencing a high incidence of "push by" shootings. :gunsmilie:


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> So... Using this logic, every single person needs to either drive a top-fuel dragster, or nothing. I guess I need to park my VW Golf, because it won't go 337 mph.
> 
> It's all or nothing.


 that would be nice but gas(nitromethane) prices are a little high these days. the point is, some people can make things work sometimes, some can't. we can't all make cars do these things without a lot of knowledge and work(money). HD ads make people think that its one coat and done. pull up an ad on paint and primer in one. it will show a bright blue paint covering a white area perfectly with a paint brush. HD is full of **** with the way that they advertise this product. it doesnt work nowhere near like they claim and people get pissed. HD doesnt give that stuff away either but they do price it right where it needs to be to get people to come through those doors,IMO they are ripping people off. we can both agree on why coatings fail. so when people complain to HD, do you think that HD tells them it is due to the way that the product is being applied. that said, the consumer will buy a few more gallons and some better brushes this time and go try it again. 
'
;


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> Fair enough. Thank you.
> 
> Behr Paint is yet another of those mid-grade paints. I don't buy it because I love it. I buy it because the HD store is the only place, within reasonable driving distance, where I can get paint. Even then, I often buy elsewhere.
> 
> I have never, not even once, had a problem with any of the Behr Paint I've used. But without question, lots of people have had lots of problems with Behr. Those problems could have a lot to do with the high school kid, at the paint counter, not knowing what he/she is doing. I also wonder if, in some HD Stores, they don't sell much paint, and you may be buying paint that's 3-4 years old. Behr also seems to have a real problem with consistent quality.
> 
> Even so, I'd love to have a good SW or BM Paint Store nearby. If they were good people, and reasonable to work with, I'd buy all my paint there. But that's not the case.


 your a good man and i get your point on your frustration. i feel the same way at times when people give opinions with no grounds to back them. i hope we can continue to debate on some more topics soon, as we have done in the past. i like a person that can stand his/her ground. what better way to learn and improve?


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## user1007

DrHicks said:


> Do you feel that same way about Dutch Boy, Valspar, Glidden, Pratt & Lambert, and Pittsburgh paints?
> 
> 
> And for the record, what I'm saying is that Behr Paint CANNOT be as bad as our "WE HATE BEHR PAINT FAN CLUB" members claim. It simply cannot be that bad, or the company would not still be in business. Behr Paint would have gone the route of the Yugo.


Well I sort of feel that way about the brands you mentioned. P&L is alright and the high end paint store Pittsburgh is nice to work with. The Pittsburgh Menard's sells is lower in quality than the contractor grade in paint stores but packaged for the unsuspecting retail masses. Dutch Boy is Sherwin Williams attempt at the retail market. Valspar is Lowe's attempt to compete with Behr. 

As for the Yugo failing? The paint was actually alright (thank God HD does not sell automotive finishes or offer booths in the back with substandard body work contractors to paint your car in an hour with primer and paint combined) as I remember. I bet if the glass fluid bottles under the hood had not kept breaking and people never caught on that your keys worked in the locks to any other Yugo? They would be racing in a special Nascar class with giant Home Depot decals on them. As it is, and because they were dirt cheap to start and available now for pennies as scrap? Yugos are among the most popular materials for college art and design projects. No car in history has been so repurposed. :laughing:


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## mustangmike3789

i saw a mint condition yugo a few weeks back. i think that they will make a come back. i wish that i had one right now with these gas prices.


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## 95025

Sprayboy said:


> You can hardly equate Behr paint with the Yugo. There was a lot of government pressure to squish the Yugo because municipalities everywhere where experiencing a high incidence of "push by" shootings. :gunsmilie:


Actually, lobbyists from Ford & GM were going after Congress, because too many Camaro & Mustang owners were going over to Yugos.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> your a good man and i get your point on your frustration. i feel the same way at times when people give opinions with no grounds to back them. i hope we can continue to debate on some more topics soon, as we have done in the past. i like a person that can stand his/her ground. what better way to learn and improve?


Name your topic & I'll argue it into the ground!


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> i saw a mint condition yugo a few weeks back. i think that they will make a come back. i wish that i had one right now with these gas prices.


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## ccarlisle

DrHicks said:


> The advice of professional painters is going to be best for professional painters, but not necessarily best for consumers, or DIYers. Everything has to be understood in its proper context.


That is all true; but one thing that 'professionals' bring to the table is a familiarity with the painting process, which includes - by necessity - different paints. So they bring their experience with paints and that means they bring the ability to _compare_ one paint with another, one brand to another all in the space of, what? a few days? a few weeks? I dunno but there becomes a database full of practical likes and dislikes that marketing companies would just love to use as their marketing base. 

So, most pros I know already dislike Behr paint, because they all see the same lack of perfomance in the fied. Are they biased? No? Does a poor product affect their income and/or reputation? Yup. AND does the maufacturer do anything to improve their product? No, they choose not to, in favour of duping the 'average customer' into buying their product. Why not? 

It all comes back to *standards*. The occasional DIY painter paints once every three years, buys a paint, applies it and sees no problem. No standards there...The fact is that he overpaid for the product, probably doesn't account for his own time, plus has nothing to compare it to, but this is irrelevant to him. The wall is a new colour, he has spent a full weekend redoing the daughters bedroom and she likes it. End of story. Now he thinks himself a painter who-has-saved-$10-and-fed-the-kids-on-the-money-I-saved..."Nothing wrong with Behr paint! See? Did it myself and saved $100! What are those guys talking about?"

We say: "Come here let me show you something: we're talking about using a better paint, getting a better job done in less time at less cost. Although you won't be able to buy your burgers, you will only need to recoat this in 10 years instead of three..." When you compare what you have to what you could have had, there's no contest.

That's having a _standard_...Pros don't need to convince other pros of that, they have similar standards or they wouldn't be painters. But ask a painter on a DIY forum, and you'll get a consistent reply...wonder why that is?

Standards, that's why...and it's easy to convince people there are no standards. Tell them they are stupid enough times and they'll believe it.


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## KrazeeKirsten

I only paint interior spaces and I repaint mostly because I change my mind about the decor so durability isn't as big a factor for me. I have used Behr a lot without application problems..


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## 95025

ccarlisle said:


> That is all true; but one thing that 'professionals' bring to the table is a familiarity with the painting process, which includes - by necessity - different paints. So they bring their experience with paints and that means they bring the ability to _compare_ one paint with another, one brand to another all in the space of, what? a few days? a few weeks? I dunno but there becomes a database full of practical likes and dislikes that marketing companies would just love to use as their marketing base.
> 
> So, most pros I know already dislike Behr paint, because they all see the same lack of perfomance in the fied. Are they biased? No? Does a poor product affect their income and/or reputation? Yup. AND does the maufacturer do anything to improve their product? No, they choose not to, in favour of duping the 'average customer' into buying their product. Why not?
> 
> It all comes back to *standards*. The occasional DIY painter paints once every three years, buys a paint, applies it and sees no problem. No standards there...The fact is that he overpaid for the product, probably doesn't account for his own time, plus has nothing to compare it to, but this is irrelevant to him. The wall is a new colour, he has spent a full weekend redoing the daughters bedroom and she likes it. End of story. Now he thinks himself a painter who-has-saved-$10-and-fed-the-kids-on-the-money-I-saved..."Nothing wrong with Behr paint! See? Did it myself and saved $100! What are those guys talking about?"
> 
> We say: "Come here let me show you something: we're talking about using a better paint, getting a better job done in less time at less cost. Although you won't be able to buy your burgers, you will only need to recoat this in 10 years instead of three..." When you compare what you have to what you could have had, there's no contest.
> 
> That's having a _standard_...Pros don't need to convince other pros of that, they have similar standards or they wouldn't be painters. But ask a painter on a DIY forum, and you'll get a consistent reply...wonder why that is?
> 
> Standards, that's why...and it's easy to convince people there are no standards. Tell them they are stupid enough times and they'll believe it.


Obfuscation noted.

I guess that from now on, I'll pay a "professional" $2500 to paint the inside of a rental house every couple years, because doing it myself for $200 is stupid.

It's Cadillac or nothing! The most expensive route, or screw it!


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## 95025

KrazeeKirsten said:


> I only paint interior spaces and I repaint mostly because I change my mind about the decor so durability isn't as big a factor for me. I have used Behr a lot without application problems..


You mean you DON'T pay a "professional" hundreds of dollars per room, then leave it the same color for 10 years? How DARE you?!?!?!


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## KrazeeKirsten

This may come as a surprise but I change my mind A LOT!!! .(hense the nickname "Krazee") .which often means I'm really excited about new paint color one year but in 12 months I might buy a new couch and chair then want to go in a different direction ..

I'd rather save my money for furniture and artwork for the room. 

and yes, good doctor I did note your sarcasm ;-)


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## oh'mike

Just something to think about----Behr is cheaper than Benjamin Moore---Most painters provide the paint and the labor.

Answer this one----Why in the world would a guy pay more if he could pocket the difference and still have a satisfied customer?


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## ccarlisle

?

Because your reputation is worth more than the price difference you think you "save". I try to do it right the first time and not have to recoat because I cheapened out on the paint. How many reasons do you want?


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## KrazeeKirsten

ccarlisle said:


> ?
> 
> Because your reputation is worth more than the price difference you think you "save". I try to do it right the first time and not have to recoat because I cheapened out on the paint. How many reasons do you want?


This is a convincing argument.
If I'm hiring a professional I expect better than average quality paint and labor.


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## user1007

ccarlisle said:


> That is all true; but one thing that 'professionals' bring to the table is a familiarity with the painting process, which includes - by necessity - different paints. So they bring their experience with paints and that means they bring the ability to _compare_ one paint with another, one brand to another all in the space of, what? a few days? a few weeks? I dunno but there becomes a database full of practical likes and dislikes that marketing companies would just love to use as their marketing base.
> 
> So, most pros I know already dislike Behr paint, because they all see the same lack of perfomance in the fied. Are they biased? No? Does a poor product affect their income and/or reputation? Yup. AND does the maufacturer do anything to improve their product? No, they choose not to, in favour of duping the 'average customer' into buying their product. Why not?
> 
> It all comes back to *standards*. The occasional DIY painter paints once every three years, buys a paint, applies it and sees no problem. No standards there...The fact is that he overpaid for the product, probably doesn't account for his own time, plus has nothing to compare it to, but this is irrelevant to him. The wall is a new colour, he has spent a full weekend redoing the daughters bedroom and she likes it. End of story. Now he thinks himself a painter who-has-saved-$10-and-fed-the-kids-on-the-money-I-saved..."Nothing wrong with Behr paint! See? Did it myself and saved $100! What are those guys talking about?"
> 
> We say: "Come here let me show you something: we're talking about using a better paint, getting a better job done in less time at less cost. Although you won't be able to buy your burgers, you will only need to recoat this in 10 years instead of three..." When you compare what you have to what you could have had, there's no contest.
> 
> That's having a _standard_...Pros don't need to convince other pros of that, they have similar standards or they wouldn't be painters. But ask a painter on a DIY forum, and you'll get a consistent reply...wonder why that is?
> 
> Standards, that's why...and it's easy to convince people there are no standards. Tell them they are stupid enough times and they'll believe it.


Nice. :thumbsup:
And unfortunately as we all allow ourselves to degrade to the standards of the box stores, interior design by Target and crappy paint like Behr? We end up owned and twisted by the cajones.


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## user1007

KrazeeKirsten said:


> This is a convincing argument.
> If I'm hiring a professional I expect better than average quality paint and labor.


You don't sound so crazy! Good decision. :yes:


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## 95025

oh'mike said:


> Just something to think about----Behr is cheaper than Benjamin Moore---Most painters provide the paint and the labor.
> 
> Answer this one----*Why in the world would a guy pay more if he could pocket the difference and still have a satisfied customer?*


Everything is not as clear as it would initially seem. 

SW & BM will sell paint to "professionals" for half the amount they'll sell it to over-the-counter customers. Sometimes less than half. 

Doesn't that mean they could/should sell it to us lowly ones for (maybe) $35 per gallon instead of $60 per gallon?

Or maybe we're not their target demographic.


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## oh'mike

I would like the store you shop in. I buy hundreds of gallons a year and don't get a discount as big as you describe.


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## thegonagle

Matthewt1970 said:


> I only wish Behr paint would last as long as this thread.......


Whatever do you mean? It's taking longer for my Behr paint to fully dry than this thread has lasted.


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## kwikfishron

oh'mike said:


> I would like the store you shop in. I buy hundreds of gallons a year and don't get a discount as big as you describe.


I don’t know….the first time I bought at SW they told me $202 for a 5 of Superpaint. Then I was told to just set up a cash account and the price became $120. That is a true story.


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## oh'mike

I was talking out of the side of my mouth----I have no idea what retail is,really. I've had the account for years and never ask what the average Joe pays for the same paint.


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## 95025

oh'mike said:


> I was talking out of the side of my mouth----I have no idea what retail is,really. I've had the account for years and never ask what the average Joe pays for the same paint.


That's one of the points I've been making all along.

I tried to do business with the closest SW Paint Store. Frankly, they were a-holes, and it doesn't surprise me that the store is now closed.

Anyway, I checked on the price for an exterior paint. $60 per gallon. I explained that I renovate houses and have rental property, and asked what kind of deal they could swing for me. They begrudgingly said that, if I opened an account with them, they'd knock 5% off the $60 per gallon.

Frankly, that's not good enough - especially in light of the fact that the "professionals" here claim they're getting their SW Paint for anywhere from $22-$35 per gallon.


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## mustangmike3789

DrHicks said:


> That's one of the points I've been making all along.
> 
> I tried to do business with the closest SW Paint Store. Frankly, they were a-holes, and it doesn't surprise me that the store is now closed.
> 
> Anyway, I checked on the price for an exterior paint. $60 per gallon. I explained that I renovate houses and have rental property, and asked what kind of deal they could swing for me. They begrudgingly said that, if I opened an account with them, they'd knock 5% off the $60 per gallon.
> 
> Frankly, that's not good enough - especially in light of the fact that the "professionals" here claim they're getting their SW Paint for anywhere from $22-$35 per gallon.


 that sounds about right.


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## ltd

dr hicks here's the thing and i know what you mean . when you buy 7 , to 10 thousands dollars in paint a year you will get that price too.:yes: i dont get the same prices as the big boys that spend 10 plus a year . :no: i wish i did


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## 95025

ltd said:


> dr hicks here's the thing and i know what you mean . when you buy 7 , to 10 thousands dollars in paint a year you will get that price too.:yes: i dont get the same prices as the big boys that spend 10 plus a year . :no: i wish i did


Exactly. So let's admit that SW & BM are *not* target marketing DIYers & regular home owners. Us commoners cannot buy their paint for $25 - $35 per gallon, so we have to decide whether or not it's worth it to pay double. For most of us it's not, especially if you own rental property, and know that you're going to be repainting everything in a couple years anyway.

Not everyone's needs are the same. That's why some guys drive 1-ton dually trucks, while others drive little Toyotas. And it's why some people buy the most expensive paint out there, while others choose not to.


----------



## user1007

Sorry, I am a Benjamin Moore guy when I have the choice. :thumbsup:

I don't mark up paint but I guess I pay $900 dollars a gallon for the premium stuff Benjamin Moore hides in the back of their stores and dealerships. Ask for the experimental nano tech brand. Comes only in gallons with a black label. 

You can only open the lid three times. Once to put the paint product in the can. Once to open it to add colorants (Have the paint store shake and stir it).

When you open the lid the last time it not only becomes primer and paint in one? It self applies itself with some sort of artificial intel that misses the trim. Or if you bought it for trim, it misses the walls. It's amazing to watch. It has some sort of nano robots in it. 

No prep of any kind needed. I love the stuff.


----------



## 95025

^^ Nano Tech is crap. Nano Ultra II is where it's at.


----------



## oh'mike

I get a discount--never paid more than $750 a gallon ---


----------



## chrisBC

DrHicks said:


> Exactly. So let's admit that SW & BM are *not* target marketing DIYers & regular home owners. Us commoners cannot buy their paint for $25 - $35 per gallon, so we have to decide whether or not it's worth it to pay double. For most of us it's not, especially if you own rental property, and know that you're going to be repainting everything in a couple years anyway.
> 
> Not everyone's needs are the same. That's why some guys drive 1-ton dually trucks, while others drive little Toyotas. And it's why some people buy the most expensive paint out there, while others choose not to.


 

I think to get a good discount you need to be spending the money, the guys getting the real good discounts are those buying 12 plus gallons of paint per week, many weeks of the year. Those discounts are well earned, a DIY'er cannot come close to giving them that much business.

And hey, at least they gave you a discount. Keep in mind HD doesn't give discounts for anything, at least not around this area. Sales yes, but contractors/repetitive customer's, nope.

The thing about Behr, is that even without a contractor's discount, you can walk into a BM store and buy a decent quality (not premium) paint and have a much better paint for a comparible if not cheaper price than Behr. Behr can work, however for the money you can buy much better paint. I think the thing about Behr is that so many people buy it without knowing how much better paint they can buy for the same amount of money.


----------



## Jasonlongor1

Actually if you got SW's site you can sign up for basic preferred customer and receive 10% off your purchasesThey automatically signed me up at the store on my first purchases.Just as well they send coupons and special sales notices once or twice a month usually up to 30%!!!!!


----------



## mustangmike3789

My company buys paint in 55 gallon drums and the price is really good. It was nice a few years ago when we could still use DTM acrylic, two guys could blow through 4 to 6 drums in a 12 hour shift. Now with all of the epoxy and urethanes we are lucky if we use 75 gallons in a shift.


----------



## ccarlisle

chrisBC said:


> I think to get a good discount you need to be spending the money, the guys getting the real good discounts are those buying 12 plus gallons of paint per week, many weeks of the year. Those discounts are well earned, a DIY'er cannot come close to giving them that much business.
> 
> And hey, at least they gave you a discount. Keep in mind HD doesn't give discounts for anything, at least not around this area. Sales yes, but contractors/repetitive customer's, nope.
> 
> The thing about Behr, is that even without a contractor's discount, you can walk into a BM store and buy a decent quality (not premium) paint and have a much better paint for a comparible if not cheaper price than Behr. Behr can work, however for the money you can buy much better paint. I think the thing about Behr is that so many people buy it without knowing how much better paint they can buy for the same amount of money.


:thumbsup: Got _that _right!

Discounts at SW and BM? Well yeah, for the big guys but the closest I ever came was about 10% but for that I had to jump through hoops too. No, we're not big enough to earn discounts and pass on the price of the product as is. We work on making money by earning more business through our reputation of doing a really good job than trying to make an extra $50 on 10% discounts. I know it all adds up but one good referral to another job is worth more than all the discounts combined.

Maybe we have a different philosphy up here, 'deal'-wise, 'discount'-wise, 'save-money-as-a-religion'-wise than you folks. It sure sounds like it from the nonsense I read about saving a dime & costing a dollar...just look at this thread. Millions of $ sales of an "$8/gallon" paint selling for $47! and who knows how many dissatisfied customers...and how come no-one rags on BM they way they do Behr?


----------



## chrisBC

ccarlisle said:


> :thumbsup: Got _that _right!
> 
> Discounts at SW and BM? Well yeah, for the big guys but the closest I ever came was about 10% but for that I had to jump through hoops too. No, we're not big enough to earn discounts and pass on the price of the product as is. We work on making money by earning more business through our reputation of doing a really good job than trying to make an extra $50 on 10% discounts. I know it all adds up but one good referral to another job is worth more than all the discounts combined.
> 
> Maybe we have a different philosphy up here, 'deal'-wise, 'discount'-wise, 'save-money-as-a-religion'-wise than you folks. It sure sounds like it from the nonsense I read about saving a dime & costing a dollar...just look at this thread. Millions of $ sales of an "$8/gallon" paint selling for $47! and who knows how many dissatisfied customers...and how come no-one rags on BM they way they do Behr?


Yeah I really like the service at BM. I like that you don't have to fill out endless paperwork and whatnot to get an account there. I just walked in one day starting an interior repaint of a house, was wearing whites, they offered me an account right there. My discount isn't over 30 percent or anything, but i'm pretty sure it's more than ten, maybe because it's a franchise it can differ.

The thing about those stores too is that the staff actually tend to know what they are talking about, compared to the big box stores.


----------



## user1007

chrisBC said:


> The thing about those stores too is that the staff actually tend to know what they are talking about, compared to the big box stores.


Come on. Play fair. You are saying the minimum wage person in the orange apron, having suffered through the HD training videos, does not have the same experience as the once pro painter for 25 years that mixes my paint when I call in orders to my Benjamin Moore dealer? :no:


----------



## mustangmike3789

sdsester said:


> Come on. Play fair. You are saying the minimum wage person in the orange apron, having suffered through the HD training videos, does not have the same experience as the once pro painter for 25 years that mixes my paint when I call in orders to my Benjamin Moore dealer? :no:


 whAT could possibly make you think that a guy with 25 years exp in painting, mixing paint, selling paint and talking to other exp painters on a daily basis be more knowledgeable about paint than the cute girl in HD that works there because her other job at applebee's wasnt for her. im sure she talked to some painters while she worked there.


----------



## user1007

mustangmike3789 said:


> whAT could possibly make you think that a guy with 25 years exp in painting, mixing paint, selling paint and talking to other exp painters on a daily basis be more knowledgeable about paint than the cute girl in HD that works there because her other job at applebee's wasnt for her. im sure she talked to some painters while she worked there.


Don't have any idea. Thanks for slapping me back in line Bubba. And be more kind. Some of those girls need the work. Really. Others, the ones with the BMWs and Lexus out in the parking lot? Need to prove to Daddy they deserve the $4,000/month allowance before the trust fund kicks in. :laughing:

You know what I really look for in checking out paint suppliers. Nail jobs. If there are not perfectly manicured guys in whites with pink polish on and cuticles tucked. I know they cannot be real.


----------



## RickyG

George Z said:


> Before everyone blames every paint out there.
> A good painter can make magic with average paint and a poor painter
> can do nothing right with top of the line paint.
> I have painted thousands of homes over twenty years and so far
> I haven't come across too many bad paints these days.
> Please compare apples to apples.
> Third line Benjamin Moore is not as good as first line Glidden.
> Top line Pittsburgh is better than third line S.W. etc.
> Nine times out of ten, it is not the paint, it is the painter...
> sorry for the cold truth.


Please provide us with a list of things that a bad painter does that he/she should not do.


----------



## Brushjockey

Ricky- if we we're talking about something like say tennis. And you asked a pro player that same question- He would either laugh or sign you up for lessons which would take years to cover all the fine points. 
Same deal.


----------



## ccarlisle

*Behr paint is really 'worth' $80/gallon...*

Let's simplify things a bit here: let's say that a "decent paint job" is the lowest common denominator consisting of a primer, and as many coats of paint as it takes to make most of us - DIYers and pros- here "happy"...Let's see now:

Walmart has paint for sale at $17/gallon...if they make a 100% mark-up, their paint is actually "worth" $8.50/gallon. The Behr equivalent costs $33/gallon and they make 100%, so Behr is "worth" $16.50/gallon. An equivalent BenjaminMoore costs me $43/gallon and they make 50% (so someone told me) so their paint is worth $28/gallon...

Here's the kicker: I say BM paints outperform the lesser brands by 2-3 times, accounting for lesser coverage, sagging etc and primer nonsense, so Behr paints actually "cost" in materials and labour, 2-3 times what B-M costs. So Behr at $16.50 times 2.5 = $41.25. At 100% mark-up, you'd pay $82.50/gallon.

Similarly, Walmart would cost you more than what B-M costs.

If people saw this (admittedly convoluted and subjective) logic - which to some is close to the truth technically - they might think twice.

:whistling2:

I'm feeling punchy today - too much rain. Nothing else to do. :laughing:


----------



## ratherbefishin'

If I mix a bottle of Turtle Wax in a can of Behr, can I prime, paint, and polish my Yugo all in one step?:blink:


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## Brushjockey

Yes!!!!!


----------



## chrisBC

just a note on the "paint and primer in one"

I did a home reno recently where in one room wall panelling was taken down and I installed and finished drywall.

The HO was in a hurry to get all the work done to move in by the month's end, so he brought in painters while we worked on other things. I would have at least liked to prime my work before they painted, however such is life, and when we showed up in the morning these guys were already painting, I had no idea about it.

These guys were "discount" painters and the home owner provided the paint, the expert at home depot told him that since this was the latest great BEHR product, with nano techology and whatnot, and also had the paint and primer in one, and so he wouldn't have to buy primer...for new drywall...I wish he had asked me first.

so these painters (neither one was over 21, just employees sent out to do the work) painted over the new drywall with paint and primer in one.

Needless to say, the mudd flashed right through. The wall is nice and smooth, however you can clearly see the mudd flashing...:furious:


----------



## Gatorb8

Funny instance the other day at the local Home Depot. Behr Rep had no idea how to prime a sprayer for a spray booth so I stepped in to help. Got me thinking about their stupid commercial for Ultra so I made the comment, "Your priming while prepping, soon you'll be priming while painting, and painting while priming." Guess you had to be there to truly enjoy!


----------



## user1007

Gatorb8 said:


> Funny instance the other day at the local Home Depot. Behr Rep had no idea how to prime a sprayer for a spray booth so I stepped in to help. Got me thinking about their stupid commercial for Ultra so I made the comment, "Your priming while prepping, soon you'll be priming while painting, and painting while priming." Guess you had to be there to truly enjoy!


:laughing:
You are new and copping a tude already.

You know the biggest manufacturer of 60s lava lamps and even the USB thing someone sent me as a joke are Chicago based. I know the beauty of mixing oil and water together and do believe that if anybody can come up with it in one can it is Behr Paint that will and the well orange-aproned people at Home Depot will be able to explain it to me. :thumbsup:


----------



## Gatorb8

sdsester said:


> :laughing:
> You are new and copping a tude already.
> 
> You know the biggest manufacturer of 60s lava lamps and even the USB thing someone sent me as a joke are Chicago based. I know the beauty of mixing oil and water together and do believe that if anybody can come up with it in one can it is Behr Paint that will and the well orange-aproned people at Home Depot will be able to explain it to me. :thumbsup:



Couldn't pass it up!


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## Blondesense

600 posts on this thread and y'all are _still _bashin' behr?!? :no:


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## user1007

We should just abandon it to the PR hacks HD floats on this site on a regular basis? 

I will back off completely when HD admits they sell a medium quality product (at best) with total marketing hype like primer and paint in one, with value only derived by the cost of the can to the consumer.

I do admit this thread is substantial in the quantity of posts but given the prominence of this site in search engines? It baffles me HD doesn't even seem to care. Surprise, surprise.

Maybe when it swells to 60,000 posts, most negative, they will catch on?

Are the posts making any difference to the DIYers that visit? Don't know but if just one has been convinced to at least explore using quality if for no other reason than to know what it feels like I suppose, then I guess it was worth it. And I say again that I do not shop in box stores because they put others out of business and their shlock fasteners, paint, plumbing valves, etc. With all others gone I rely on, they will not only set the standard but will implement a diminishing one to keep profit margins through the roof. As the only game in town, they will feed us whatever crap they want and at whatever price point they ultimately decide with all other competition eliminated.


----------



## chrisn

Maybe when it swells to 60,000 posts, most negative, they will catch on?:no:

60 million MIGHT get their attention:laughing:


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## ccarlisle

Our numbers are nothing. Just think; in your country (the locus of marketing genius) and in mine, everyday or even every week, someone buys Behr paint. At only 0.1%, that's 380,000 galllons sold. You can afford to sell crap with those numbers, because that'll pay for even more marketing.

Shows how low standards the general public has.:laughing:


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## 95025

...and the ridiculous chest beating bravado continues. :huh:


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## airon26

I just want to thank the people of this site and especially this thread.

I'm going to be painting my house in a couple weeks, so I was about to go down to Home Depot to buy some Behr paint since it's $20 off every 5 gallon bucket. I thought I'd jump on here first and read some reviews.

I will now be going to the local Shermin-Williams and getting their advice and buying their paint.

Thank you.


----------



## Sprayboy

airon26 said:


> I just want to thank the people of this site and especially this thread.
> 
> I'm going to be painting my house in a couple weeks, so I was about to go down to Home Depot to buy some Behr paint since it's $20 off every 5 gallon bucket. I thought I'd jump on here first and read some reviews.
> 
> I will now be going to the local Shermin-Williams and getting their advice and buying their paint.
> 
> Thank you.


Just for example I trotted over to HD looking for laquer to shoot some kitchen cabinets I stripped. I couldn't find anything suitable to shoot at any of the box stores. Bought some medium-rubbed pre-cat laquer at Sherwin-Williams and everything looks perfect. Sometimes you just have to go to the pros! :wink:


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## oh'mike

This thread just keeps going and going-----


----------



## Smokin Gun

sdsester said:


> We should just abandon it to the PR hacks HD floats on this site on a regular basis?
> 
> I will back off completely when HD admits they sell a medium quality product (at best) with total marketing hype like primer and paint in one, with value only derived by the cost of the can to the consumer.
> 
> I do admit this thread is substantial in the quantity of posts but given the prominence of this site in search engines? It baffles me HD doesn't even seem to care. Surprise, surprise.
> 
> Maybe when it swells to 60,000 posts, most negative, they will catch on?
> 
> Are the posts making any difference to the DIYers that visit? Don't know but if just one has been convinced to at least explore using quality if for no other reason than to know what it feels like I suppose, then I guess it was worth it. And I say again that I do not shop in box stores because they put others out of business and their shlock fasteners, paint, plumbing valves, etc. With all others gone I rely on, they will not only set the standard but will implement a diminishing one to keep profit margins through the roof. As the only game in town, they will feed us whatever crap they want and at whatever price point they ultimately decide with all other competition eliminated.


Sdsester- This thread was well worth it. I haven't read all of it but after finding this DIY site and reading the threads along with this one (it convinced me).
We had a color pick out and it happened to a Behr color chip.
Last week, when I saw the sale at SW stores, we went and bought 18 gallons of their "Super Paint" and 5 gallons of oil primer. 
I know that anywhere, they can mix paint to match any color. SW matched our Behr color chip. 
(Just thought of this, I certainly hope the Behr's colors are good quality. LOL)


Thanks to all of you, some of us have been slapped back in line to buy paint at the RIGHT PLACES.


Toooooooo many people just run to the box stores for everything they need. This includes paint. 
"The cattle" just go buy their paint at big DIY stores just like "the cattle" going to Wamart to buy their "Made in China" products.

I will always support my SW and BM paint stores from now on.
Just makes sense that SW and BM stores have better quality paint. Doesn't matter if it costs more (at regular prices.) As they say "you get what you pay for". 
If you buy a product for $25 vs the same type of product for say $85. Which one will last longer?
My SW super paint cost me $31.49 a gallon with the 30% sale. Behr paint at HD was alittle over $36 a gallon. I know I got a much better quality paint for less!!


----------



## Gymschu

This thread is therapeutic to those of us who actually tried Behr and found it to be lacking. The only job in 35 years where a HO wanted to kill me and DIDN'T pay me for my work was a Behr product applied at the HO's request. NEVER AGAIN!


----------



## Smokin Gun

airon26 said:


> I just want to thank the people of this site and especially this thread.
> 
> I'm going to be painting my house in a couple weeks, so I was about to go down to Home Depot to buy some Behr paint since it's $20 off every 5 gallon bucket. I thought I'd jump on here first and read some reviews.
> 
> I will now be going to the local Shermin-Williams and getting their advice and buying their paint.
> 
> Thank you.


I concur!:thumbup:
My wife and I were in line with you at HD. Even had our Behr color picked out.
We bought our paint last week at SW. 
My local SW store set up an account for me automatically. Your SW store will do it for you too. 
Maybe they will give you a discount since their sale ended on the 4th. After all, who goes and buys paint on the 4th of July? They should extend the sale one day anyway.

airon26- I just got off the phone with my SW store. They said there is another sale coming later in July and it will be better than 30% off. 
If you can wait until then, you will save $$$$$$$. Do some prep while you wait.

When I bought my "Super Paint", I needed 18 gallons but they only had 11. The other 7 were coming this week and were put on my account at sale price. But now I will call them back and have them taken off my account. 
Will buy them again on the next sale.


----------



## terrilu

*behr stain*



athanman said:


> I have been doing a lot of painting recently and in doing so I used a lot of Behr brand paints.
> 
> At this point I am interested in the experiences other people have had in using this brand of paints.
> 
> So if you have any reviews please share them.


 Used Behr stain for deck 10 years ago and it started to come off in spots looked terrible,like faded off in different spots. So redid 2 yrs ago and not it is worst then before.Followed their directions twice used stain and finish remover no 64 then wood prep cleaner no 63 then restained and now same thing.They will pay for cost to strip and redo if have original receipts. So we will strip and clean and use another brand for sure. Product is terrible I do not recommend.


----------



## terrilu

Gymschu said:


> This thread is therapeutic to those of us who actually tried Behr and found it to be lacking. The only job in 35 years where a HO wanted to kill me and DIDN'T pay me for my work was a Behr product applied at the HO's request. NEVER AGAIN!


 Thanks for info wish I read this before we used it. Just found this site.


----------



## Sprayboy

terrilu said:


> Thanks for info wish I read this before we used it. Just found this site.



I'm going to try some nuetral Cabot Australian Timber Oil on my next deck. You can't spray it but it has been recommended.:yes:


----------



## mustangmike3789

terrilu said:


> Used Behr stain for deck 10 years ago and it started to come off in spots looked terrible,like faded off in different spots. So redid 2 yrs ago and not it is worst then before.Followed their directions twice used stain and finish remover no 64 then wood prep cleaner no 63 then restained and now same thing.They will pay for cost to strip and redo if have original receipts. So we will strip and clean and use another brand for sure. Product is terrible I do not recommend.


This is why everyone has went to thermal paper.


----------



## chrisn

mustangmike3789 said:


> This is why everyone has went to thermal paper.


 
:huh::huh::huh: thermal paper??


----------



## mustangmike3789

chrisn said:


> :huh::huh::huh: thermal paper??


I was commenting on post #612 requiring the original receipt. Thermal paper is the heat sensitive paper receipts that allow the print to disappear after a few days.


----------



## New_2_DIY

*BEHR's primer and paint in one*

We used this product with limited success. I would not buy it again, since it peeled off of part of the bathroom walls, and did not cure as the rep said it would. We were told by the rep we absolutely would not need primer, when I asked the home depot guy his opinion, he said don't ever skip the primer. We decided to trust the BEHR guy (he was actually at the store when we were) Tired to save a buck, but it's didn't do us much good, since now we have to peel everything that will peel, wash the walls, re-primer with real primer, and re-paint (both bathrooms).


----------



## oigan

*behr paint*

paint dries slow and second coat seems thick and hard to cover


----------



## JohnKC

I actually thought Behr paint was a good one until I started reading the massive number of negative posts here (now I am debating between Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams).

And as all the old-timers here will suggest to you like they have to me - try using the search function. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of posts discussing Behr paint.


----------



## chrisn

oigan said:


> paint dries slow and second coat seems thick and hard to cover


 Is there a question???:huh:


----------



## chrisn

JohnKC said:


> I actually thought Behr paint was a good one until I started reading the massive number of negative posts here (now I am debating between Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams).
> 
> And as all the old-timers here will suggest to you like they have to me - try using the search function. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of posts discussing Behr paint.


oh yes:laughing:


----------



## Gymschu

I've said it many times on here. In 35 years of painting, I have only had one major fight with a customer. That was because of the disaster of a paint job that resulted from her insistence on using BEHR paint. I will never, ever use that paint again...........I don't care how high Consumer Reports rates it.


----------



## JohnKC

Just read through this thread

Over 600 replies, 32 pages, and nearly 160,000 views


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## Brushjockey

Entertaining, at least, eh?

There is something for everybody out there. 
And an advertisement scheme to drive you to it...


----------



## BobSmitt

JohnKC said:


> I actually thought Behr paint was a good one until I started reading the massive number of negative posts here (now I am debating between Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams).


Having tried both, I personally would use Benjamin Moore. Why? Color. I bought a gallon of Sherwin Williams Duration Extra White to use in my hallway, and a gallon of Benjamin Moore Aura White to use in my closets. The Aura is so much whiter than the Duration that the Duration appears a light grey next to the Aura. In fact, the small dab of Duration I put on the Aura required three coats of Aura to hide - it was that much darker than the Aura. The difference is so striking that I'm going to repaint the hallway with Aura. Also, speaking of thickness, the Duration is almost like sour cream in its consistency.

The Aura vs. Behr was similar. Ignoring differences due to quality and durability, the Benjamin Moore in the same color yellow was much brighter yellow than the Behr. The difference is striking. It seems as though their coloring is far and above everyone else's in terms of brightness and vividness.

I'm not trying to start any brand wars. These are just my observations.


----------



## JohnKC

BobSmitt said:


> Having tried both, I personally would use Benjamin Moore.
> 
> In fact, the small dab of Duration I put on the Aura required three coats of Aura to hide - it was that much darker than the Aura.


But doesn't your test also show the ineffectiveness of BM Aura to cover? Don't really want to buy a paint that takes three coats to cover.

And sorry to hijack this Behr thread for a moment, but I'm also comparing stores/customer service. The only places I can buy BM is either at Ace Hardware (only sells ben and Regal Select) or a paint store that sells multiple brands. But I can drive less than two miles over to my local Sherwin Williams Store that sells only SW and the associates virtually meet me at the door asking if I need help. At the Ace Hardware, I can stand around the paint "section" seemingly invisible and when I go to that paint store, I don't look like a pro, so I'm also invisible there. And did I mention the constant 30 to 40% off sales at SW. Significant cost savings over BM.


----------



## 95025

oigan said:


> paint dries slow and second coat seems thick and hard to cover


Gotta wonder which member/former member this is...


----------



## BobSmitt

JohnKC said:


> But doesn't your test also show the ineffectiveness of BM Aura to cover? Don't really want to buy a paint that takes three coats to cover.


It's true that the Aura doesn't cover in one coat in my experience.



JohnKC said:


> And sorry to hijack this Behr thread for a moment, but I'm also comparing stores/customer service.


That's ok too. Everyone's preferences are different. In ten years I would rather be looking at brighter walls than remembering how happy I was when I was buying the paint, but that's just me.


----------



## chrisn

If you need to put on more than 2 coats of Aura, you are not applying it properly


----------



## Brushjockey

Agree with Chis- Aura can get amazing coverage, and white over white should be a slam dunk. You're missing something in the application.


----------



## BobSmitt

Brushjockey said:


> Agree with Chis- Aura can get amazing coverage, and white over white should be a slam dunk. You're missing something in the application.


If I applied it any thicker I'd be afraid it would sag. The BM in white does not seem to cover as well as the colors do. When I painted the closets with two coats of Aura white I could still see the darker Swiss mocha underneath the low areas in the roller stippling. The "peaks" of the stippling were pure white, giving it a mottled appearance. You could really tell where there was hat banding from the three coats of cut-in. Faint for sure, but still there.

The SW Duration white did hide the Swiss mocha in the hallway in one coat, but I assumed that was from its extremely thick consistency where Aura is much runnier than other paints I'm familiar with. The SW covers better, and the store staff are very nice and helpful, but in the end I'm painting to get good color and the Aura wins even if the job costs twice as much and takes longer.


----------



## Brushjockey

Aura has a few tricks, it isn't the easiest to use. 
I almost always loosen it up just a little with water and a splash of extender so the stipple lays out smoother. And I use a 1/2 " Wooster super fab cover. 
Sometimes coverage isn't about how thick , but how much the stipple closes up. Aura dries very fast , so doing that gives it a little time to lay out. I think it makes a nicer finish dried too.


----------



## BobSmitt

I have some extender but didn't notice any real difference in dry times. Maybe I'm being too conservative with it. Worst case is I use too much and have to do another coat.


----------



## Brushjockey

You can use too much , and what will happen , particularly with the cut is it might sag. That's why I use a combo of a little water and a little ext. It is tricky- kind of a feel thing.


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## Brushjockey

BTW- what sheen are you using? 
Also- if you can get the new Regal select Matte in your area, I would give it a try. A little easier to work with and a fine paint. A bit less in cost also.


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## BobSmitt

I am using eggshell. I would prefer matte, but I'm concerned because I have some household members who aren't always careful and scrubbing will be required from time to time. I really hate shiny walls, but I hate repainting even more.

Is the Regal as good colorwise as the Aura?


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## Brushjockey

Almost. They both use the new acrylic tint system that gives it that color- Aura has some special resin that gives it amazing wash, but the regal is pretty good that way too. 
Matte is really like a low sheen egg. Kinda that sweet spot between a full eggshell and a flat.
There are two Regals- regular Regal ( uses the old glycol tints) and Regal select- the new stuff.

If scrub is your main concern, the Aura Matte will give you that at a little lower sheen.


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## user1007

I grow weary of it all. Behr-ly paint never touches my projects and certainly not my own home, inside or out. If people want to to buy into the hype? Especially the Behr primer and paint in one? How many more posts will it take to convince them? How many more PR people from HD must make feeble attempts to get positive statements from anybody? I am embarassed to say I have painted with the crap but only when it was donated to a nfp I have volunteered to help.


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## jawadesign

I’m posting here in this thread specifically because it has the most hits on the BEHR paint topic and it's number #5 on a BEHR SUCKS *bing* search. Another reason is someone may read this post along with a great follow up response, be convinced by it and take the collective advice without feeling the need to do hours of searching on why one should spend a little more money on a more superior paint, save themselves TIME, all while getting a great end result!! Skip to my last paragraph for the questions if you don't want the meat of my dilemma, ha! 


I've used BEHR and think it’s OK for the price I paid ($20-25 a gallon). The last place I used BEHR was in the closets, as a test in my 1922 home, for the most part the primer #75 stuck to new floated drywall and to the existing walls with 90yrs of paint. Unfortunately, the last applied coat of paint (off white) was complete BS ie super cheap, and the idiots used it everywhere except the floor, thank god!! So the short story, I've been dealing with this issue from day one  

slickshift and masterstrokes both make valid points, among others, and I respect their seasoned opinions as professional painters. 

Ok, on to the reason I'm here... I picked up some more BEHR, labor day sale and bought the following: 12 gallons (different colors) of "non-refundable" paint, 3 - 5g of #75 primer and 1 - 5g "non-refundable" mix of off white ceiling paint. Don't bash me, but I went into SW around the same time, listened to what I thought was a car salesmen make his pitch, then decided $50(g) paint was not for me! Another reason I had skewed thoughts about Paint Shops was because of things like this, the thread itself and... #102 As a little guy, I buy peanuts... 
http://www.painttalk.com/f2/stop-sherwin-williams-16767/index6/ 

But then you go searching elsewhere and there is some reason behind price increases or the theory of you get what you pay for, ie raw materials or the lack of them... #86 
http://www.painttalk.com/f2/stop-sherwin-williams-16767/index6/ 


I'm a product designer, that's my profession, and trust me I know all about mark ups... I figured BEHR made a deal with HD and they're making up for things with volume. I'm not a chemist or the CFO of BEHR, so this is where my knowledge falls short on the topic... lol! 

So my dilemma is, move forward with the BEHR and use high quality rollers while taking my time, possibly having to apply 3-4 top coats in darker rooms OR go postal in HD, have them refund as much as I can and go to BM or SW and by the good stuff? It's post like this, #320 that give me hope at getting a fair priced product at the Paint Shops. I'll pick a shop now... *BM*, what line of their paints is a notch or two above BEHR, that's not extreme when it comes to application (two top coats) and won't starve my baby twins (I think $45g is tops for me)? I'll set up an account if it gets me a discount (fyi: I understand that I cannot expect a deep discount like a contractor that makes things up in volume). Half my rooms are light pastel colors, the other half medium colors and the bathroom will be a dark blue.


Thanks in advance, James


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## user1007

James,

The high end Ben Moore paints will have some advantages including 100 percent acrylic in the chemistry and perhaps greater washability (issue with kids at times?) and colorfastness over a long period of time. 

I believe the Ben Moore professional line is still sold as Super Spec but I have been out of the painting game for a time now. I painted many a home and business over the years with it and certainly never had to apologize. It only comes in gallons, has more vinyl and less acrylic content and comes more limited sheens---flat, eggshell, semi and I think one more. It is far superior in the way it goes on than BEHRly paint. And before you even ask for a discount will be comparable in price. 

Don't be afraid to ask for a discount or look for coupons. 

I have also been known to work with some combination of Super Spec and say Benjamin Moore Aura for clients with the latter used for darker colors that are going too need to be washed and the less expensive paint for more general areas. 

Given your design background why not spend some time on the Ben Moore website in the designer and architects or contractors section? Might be able to sift out some information.

Ben Moore was always my preferred paint but I certainly put a lot of Pro Mar from Sherwin-Williams on too. It is their equivalent of SuperSpec. Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience in their store. 

As mentioned I have only use BEHRly paint when it was donated to a cause and found it a very dissapointing struggle.


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## user1007

By the way, some of the most hilariously ironic and scathing comments about BEHR are on the Consumer Reports site. "What were you thinking when you give this stuff the rating you did" sort of things.


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## Joe Dirt

I've used both in our new house. I buy BM, the other half says BM covers like crap and "prefers Behr." And Valspar. Prefers Valspar. Really!?!?

I love the BM, I was applying the Regal Select, and it's touchy if you're not using the correct techniques to apply since the two paints are very different.

I have to paint a bedroom yet, I'll be getting paint when she heads out of town this weekend...


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## jawadesign

Thanks for the advice and recommendations. I looked over my BEHR paint inventory and luckily bought stuff that I can use elsewhere if I have to (door and trim) paint. All my non-refundable colors can find a home I'm sure... I'm out around $150 towards my paint project if I decided to move forward with the SW or BM, the few 5g pales of primer can be returned  

So I went by *SW* yesterday and talked with the guys for around an hour. They had 3 lines of paint available, ProMar/200, SuperPaint and Duration. I talked to them about price and they gave me the breakdown if I set up an account.

-Duration: $38g
-Superpaint: $33g
-ProMar200:$55g, but mentioned don't even go there... just buy the SP!

-Brilliance Ceiling Paint:$19g in (5g quantities)

-Drywall Primer:$73(5g pale)

-SW Primer (shellac):$33g My trim has a deep stained wood c.1922


Should I keep on going with price or stay there to insure they don't skimp on something during the mixing process because I'm being one of those cheap bastard customers?


I also talked to them about *BM* and they mentioned their equivalents in paint or much more expensive!? What do you guys think? Which in *BM's* line is equivelent to Duration, SuperPaint and Brilliance in terms of price and application/environment?


James


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## robin55105

*Over the freakin' top results*

I had been procrastinating for month in painting my dark barn red walls in my office. I finally was pushed to do it when I needed to neutralize the room in a very light tan for renters. I tried the Behr primer & paint in-one and nearly did it in one coat!! Unbelievable. The coverage was absolutely amazing. While I expected at minimum 3 coats, it only took a light 2nd coat touch up to finish. This will be the only paint for me in the future.:thumbup:


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## Brushjockey

jawadesign said:


> Thanks for the advice and recommendations. I looked over my BEHR paint inventory and luckily bought stuff that I can use elsewhere if I have to (door and trim) paint. All my non-refundable colors can find a home I'm sure... I'm out around $150 towards my paint project if I decided to move forward with the SW or BM, the few 5g pales of primer can be returned
> 
> So I went by *SW* yesterday and talked with the guys for around an hour. They had 3 lines of paint available, ProMar/200, SuperPaint and Duration. I talked to them about price and they gave me the breakdown if I set up an account.
> 
> -Duration: $38g
> -Superpaint: $33g
> -ProMar200:$55g, but mentioned don't even go there... just buy the SP!
> 
> -Brilliance Ceiling Paint:$19g in (5g quantities)
> 
> -Drywall Primer:$73(5g pale)
> 
> -SW Primer (shellac):$33g My trim has a deep stained wood c.1922
> 
> 
> Should I keep on going with price or stay there to insure they don't skimp on something during the mixing process because I'm being one of those cheap bastard customers?
> 
> 
> I also talked to them about *BM* and they mentioned their equivalents in paint or much more expensive!? What do you guys think? Which in *BM's* line is equivelent to Duration, SuperPaint and Brilliance in terms of price and application/environment?
> 
> 
> James



I don't do SW much- but your prices seem very screwed up.
Pro mar 200 more than duration? and superpaint? 
I thought 200 was their 'better" contractor grade..
Equivalent to BM Super Spec ( which retails for about 30ish I think)

Sw folks need to chime in..


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## user1007

Brushjockey said:


> I don't do SW much- but your prices seem very screwed up.
> Pro mar 200 more than duration? and superpaint?
> I thought 200 was their 'better" contractor grade..
> Equivalent to BM Super Spec ( which retails for about 30ish I think)
> 
> Sw folks need to chime in..


ProMar is the top contractor grade so something is wrong with those prices. It is similar to SuperSpec in the Ben Moore line.


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## Sprayboy

Just don't stick Behr in a sprayer and you'll be OK. Clay doesn't spray well but as you found out it will cover well. :laughing:


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## ltd

55bucks a gallon for pro mar 2oo :huh:. i think they just don't want to sell it to you:no:. i mean its ok paint its top of the line contractor grade paint .doesn't compare to super paint or duration .the prices for the other paint are pretty low for some one coming in for the first time.if you can get that price 33 bucks for super paint thats excellent .duration home is top of the line paint ,but i see no need for it .super paints my work horse:huh:.BTW i'm on a town house this week and land lord bought regular behr in swiss coffee satin . i'm painting over dingy dirty white ,only prep is a quick lick and a promise over that filth . i mean to tell you i'm knocking it out in 1 coat , i think that stuff is about 22 or 23 bucks.i'm i switching to behr? NO just saying guys.:wink:


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## Matthewt1970

He must have meant $25 for the ProMar200


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## BraniksPainting

*Garage floor products*

Wrong post category. Changed!


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## BraniksPainting

If he's paying $55, he's getting raped. I don't even pay that for Duration.


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## Gymschu

This thread has more lives than a litter of kittens!


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## jawadesign

sorry about the confusion on the PROMAR 200... $55 was MSRP. and i would like to thank the DIY forums for helping me negotiate better prices as a new costomer to SW. :thumbsup: 

those guys are nice, but will take advantage if they can :whistling2:


*commenting on BEHR (premium plus)...* i've tested the stuff again, just recently, and have to disagree wtih Consumer Reports findings. not exactly sure how they setup their tests, but the findings cannot be black and white!?

when i compare, side by side, the BEHR yellow against the SW yellow, both satin, one looks and feels like paint and the other like shinny plastic. can you guess which one simiulates dried plastic, with a slight tack after a months worth of drying!? yep... BEHR!!

i'm glad i switched over, i'm sure BM has exact or better results too!


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## Nailbags

Behr Paint is junk! These are the paints I use If you live on the west coast you can find them. 
1 Kelly-Moore Paints the Painter's Paint store!
2 Parker Paints! Great quality Paint made in the Pacific North West.
3 Rodda Paint Made in Portland Oregon Again a great Quality paint made in the North west
And For top price SWP and BM both are high quality paint but they keep jacking up the price last year A-100 a great paint was 32. per gal now it 45.00 Duration is now 69.00 a gallon
To save on paint ask for a discount Most will give the best price some will let you open a cash account and give you the contractors price. Just ask.
Now for the service Of the paint stores Kelly-Moore hands down has the best customer service they will deliver to you even a pint of paint free of charge to keep you happy. All the rest have great service too!


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## Protien

I hate Behr as much as the next guy and have been a sw fan since the first time I slapped some pro classic and duration up. However, I have found one single solitary use for a Behr product and it's their ceiling paint being rolled onto my acoustic/popcorn ceiling in super white. I used sw, and Behr is so thick and nasty it gets all into the cracks with my 1 1/4" nap better then the sw ceiling paint. That's it every other wall, trim, shutter, siding, and door is finished with sw in my home home.


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## Gaines21

This is a really good read for me.


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## chrisn

Gaines21 said:


> This is a really good read for me.


 
why?:huh:


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