# used old fuse box as junction for new breaker box



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Best way is to remove the guts of the old panel.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Thanks jbfan, 

Can you elaborate? Remove the "guts" of the old panel?

How do I connect the wires between the old fuse panel and the new breaker box? 

How to put the wires in after the fuses?


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Do I buy all new relays and install them in the old fuse box?

thx


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

remove everything from the fuse box, buses fuses till is just an empty box with wires coming in. then extend evey wire with wire nut to your new panel.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Why would you want to do this? Just install the breaker panel where the fuse box is. 

I see and hear this a lot, but I cannot understand the logic of it.


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> Why would you want to do this? Just install the breaker panel where the fuse box is.
> 
> I see and hear this a lot, but I cannot understand the logic of it.


 if you want the new panel in another location


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Why would you want to do this? Just install the breaker panel where the fuse box is.
> 
> I see and hear this a lot, but I cannot understand the logic of it.


I've done this because some knuckle head installed the panel in a crawl space, then the woman put an addition on with a full basement, she didn't want the OCD's in the crawlspace anymore.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Around these parts, you cannot just remove a fuse box and install breakers in their place. You would need to update the grounding, and if you update grounding and the panel, you would be required to update the meter socket as well.

Legal panel changes are few and far between around here.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Around these parts, you cannot just remove a fuse box and install breakers in their place. You would need to update the grounding, and if you update grounding and the panel, you would be required to update the meter socket as well.
> 
> Legal panel changes are few and far between around here.


That is insane..... the requirement I mean.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

k_buz said:


> Around these parts, you cannot just remove a fuse box and install breakers in their place. You would need to update the grounding, and if you update grounding and the panel, you would be required to update the meter socket as well.
> 
> Legal panel changes are few and far between around here.


I agree, that's just messed up.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I cannot imagine that your insurance company would sign off on this.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

stickboy1375 said:


> I've done this because some knuckle head installed the panel in a crawl space, then the woman put an addition on with a full basement, she didn't want the OCD's in the crawlspace anymore.


Now this I get. 
I meant just using the fuse box as a splice box and putting a panel right nearby.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Gymschu said:


> I cannot imagine that your insurance company would sign off on this.


What does the insurance company have to do with it???


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Now this I get.
> I meant just using the fuse box as a splice box and putting a panel right nearby.


Right, I dont get that either....


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Why? I find it to be a good thing. When fuse panels were common, the grounding requirements aren't near what they are today. Not to mention that over the years, everything has been corroded. Now look at what they used to use (in this area) for service entrance conductors. Many of them are copper clad with cloth covered TW that has been damaged from 50+ years of sun, rain, snow, and cold.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Why? I find it to be a good thing. When fuse panels were common, the grounding requirements aren't near what they are today. Not to mention that over the years, everything has been corroded. Now look at what they used to use (in this area) for service entrance conductors. Many of them are copper clad with cloth covered TW that has been damaged from 50+ years of sun, rain, snow, and cold.


But, its still a hardship if the meter and conductors are in perfect condition, or lets say, worry free.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> But, its still a hardship if the meter and conductors are in perfect condition, or lets say, worry free.


That leaves it up to interpretation.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

k_buz said:


> That leaves it up to interpretation.


So you would be cool with having to rip out knob and tube if it existed, or heck, even old BX? Im just trying to prove my point of hardship, its existing, leave it alone unless instructed by the homeowner, gotta love how someone dictates how you are required to spend your money.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Nobody forces them to replace their panel...or service.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Nobody forces them to replace their panel...or service.



I know, i hope you can just see my view on the situation, of course... it doesn't affect me at all, i'm just kind of shocked someone felt the need to mandate this.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Here in 84,Pa.15330, New service , complete.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

bobelectric said:


> Here in 84,Pa.15330, New service , complete.


But when does a new panel constitute as a new service? :confused1:


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

up in Quebec, new breaker box requires all bedrooms with arc breakers.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> What does the insurance company have to do with it???


Most insurance companies want the damn fuse boxes out of the house, period. Anyone pissing around trying to be cute with the fuse box usually screws up something causing a fire hazard. Insurance companies don't like fires. The insurance co. will drop the customer like a sack of dirt. Just saying.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Why would the insurance company complain about fuses when fuses are allowed by the NEC?:yes:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Missouri Bound said:


> Why would the insurance company complain about fuses when fuses are allowed by the NEC?:yes:


Because people install pennies behind them.  Seriously though, there is no safe way to ensure that someone won't install a larger fuse than safely allowed, they are frowned upon by the insurance industry.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Gymschu said:


> Most insurance companies want the damn fuse boxes out of the house, period. Anyone pissing around trying to be cute with the fuse box usually screws up something causing a fire hazard. Insurance companies don't like fires. The insurance co. will drop the customer like a sack of dirt. Just saying.


Really? And you have this on good authority?
You've seen it happen? Did the insurance police come knocking asking to see your fuse box? 

WHY would the insurance company even be aware of this?????? :huh:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Really? And you have this on good authority?
> You've seen it happen? Did the insurance police come knocking asking to see your fuse box?
> 
> WHY would the insurance company even be aware of this?????? :huh:



My buddy got flagged at his house because he didnt have a railing on his front steps, they did a drive by....


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

hohadcr said:


> Do I buy all new relays and install them in the old fuse box?
> 
> thx


 
Relays?? What relays?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Really? And you have this on good authority?
> You've seen it happen? Did the insurance police come knocking asking to see your fuse box?
> 
> WHY would the insurance company even be aware of this?????? :huh:


Yes, I was told I had ONE week to remove the fuse box or the insurance company would drop me. It has happened to numerous homeowners in my surrounding area and includes all the name brand ins. companies.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Yes, I was told I had ONE week to remove the fuse box or the insurance company would drop me. It has happened to numerous homeowners in my surrounding area and includes all the name brand ins. companies.


:furious: That is complete bullsh*t on the insurance conpanies part. Find a new insurance company. Absolutely nothing wrong with fuses.


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## Eds_tls (Apr 11, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> Yes, I was told I had ONE week to remove the fuse box or the insurance company would drop me. It has happened to numerous homeowners in my surrounding area and includes all the name brand ins. companies.


How did they know you had a fuse box?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Missouri Bound said:


> :furious: That is complete bullsh*t on the insurance conpanies part. Find a new insurance company. Absolutely nothing wrong with fuses.


It's a liability they don't want, you know damn well people install the wrong size fuse all the time, you know how many 30 amp fuses I find installed on a 15 amp circuit?
Never mind the countless pennies and other foreign objects used to complete the circuit. 

I don't blame the insurance company one bit! And I really don't think you will find a insurance company that doesn't follow this protocol.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Every insurance co. I know sends out an inspector before insuring your home. This happened many years ago and it still happens. My nephew recently bought a home and his future ins. co. said they would not insure the home if the roof was more than 15 years old!


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

You have to remember, insurance companies, like ANY company, are out to make money, so if they are always paying claims, that company will fail, it's all about good investing, and they tend to increase those odds or walk... We all do the same thing in life.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> It's a liability they don't want, you know damn well people install the wrong size fuse all the time, you know how many 30 amp fuses I find installed on a 15 amp circuit?
> Never mind the countless pennies and other foreign objects used to complete the circuit.


It's not much harder to install a larger breaker than to insert a larger fuse. It's certainly easier and safer to install a breaker than to shove an object into the fuse base.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> It's not much harder to install a larger breaker than to insert a larger fuse. It's certainly easier and safer to install a breaker than to shove an object into the fuse base.


seriously? you dont think its MUCH more likely to simply unscrew a fuse and screw a larger size in its place? 9/10 times the circuit is already overloaded due to its original installation date and much heavier loads that we have today.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> seriously? you dont think its MUCH more likely to simply unscrew a fuse and screw a larger size in its place?


If someone is having a problem and they are willing to hack it, I don't see it being that much different. I have personally found many #14's on 20A breakers in my time.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> If someone is having a problem and they are willing to hack it, I don't see it being that much different. I have personally found many #14's on 20A breakers in my time.


You're missing the point i'm afraid.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> You're missing the point i'm afraid.


I don't think so. 

You are saying that fuseboxes are bad because people can use larger fuses or insert objects into the socket. I said that people can easily use larger breakers in a modern panel for the same effect.

What's the difference between someone going to Home Depot and picking up a larger fuse and them going there and picking up a larger breaker?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> You are saying that fuseboxes are bad because people can use larger fuses or insert objects into the socket. I said that people can easily use larger breakers in a modern panel for the same effect.
> 
> What's the difference between someone going to Home Depot and picking up a larger fuse and them going there and picking up a larger breaker?


This is obviously too hard for you to grasp, when a fuse blows they need to change it, most likely they are going to install whatever size they have laying on top of the panel, weather it be a 15, 20 or 30, not until 1968 did the NEC mandate that type 'S' fuses be used, these are not interchangeable because of the thread size... 

You are talking about something that is not the same as I am. The *LIKELIHOOD* that the incorrect size fuse gets installed is MUCH higher then the scenario you describe.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> This is obviously too hard for you to grasp,


 Wow, good job acting like an adult. Is something that I said really that bad that you had to insult me? Is that acceptable here? If I knew that people would be childish and insulting when they disagreed with you I would have chosen another forum to join.



> when a fuse blows they need to change it, most likely they are going to install whatever size they have laying on top of the panel, weather it be a 15, 20 or 30, not until 1968 did the NEC mandate that type 'S' fuses be used, these are not interchangeable because of the thread size...
> 
> You are talking about something that is not the same as I am.


We are talking about the same exact thing. Not everyone has fuses sitting on top of their panel nor do they have larger fuses than their typical branch circuits. It's very likely that they would have to go out to the store to buy a fuse, and that is not so far off from going to the store to buy a breaker. In both cases, someone can instal a larger OCPD. 

Whether it's a fuse box or breaker panel, if someone is overloading a circuit and facilitating the use of the OCPD, they can (and many times will) install a larger model. 

I simply do not share your opinion that a fuse box is more dangerous than a breaker panel solely because someone can install a larger OCPD.



> The LIKELIHOOD that the incorrect size fuse gets installed is MUCH higher then the scenario you describe.


 And that is what I disagree with. If someone is willing to go buy a larger fuse, then they would most likely also be willing to go buy a larger breaker. I have backed up my opinion with real world experience.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> Wow, good job acting like an adult. Is something that I said really that bad that you had to insult me? Is that acceptable here? If I knew that people would be childish and insulting when they disagreed with you I would have chosen another forum to join.


 
and I apologize if you took my words to strongly to heart, it was not my intent to belittle you.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> Well, the insurance company agrees with me.


I'm not sure what "the insurance company" is. MY insurance company doesn't agree with you. No insurance company that I know of does either. If one that you use agrees with your position, then that is fine, but I do not base my opinions off of insurance companies.

I've had many jobs removing old disconnected knob and tube wiring just because an insurance company said it can't be there. It cost the homeowner a lot of money to have all traces of it completely removed, the insurance company didn't care if it was completely disconnected by a licensed electrician, they wanted it removed.

Insurance companies aren't the end all be all of electrical work.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I completely agree with Stick on this one. The is a big difference than screwing a fuse in and changing a breaker. Screwing a fuse in is much easier in that you don't have to take the panel cover off and work in a live environment.

I will also say that in these parts, insurance companies usually require fuse panels be removed before they will insure the property.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> I'm not sure what "the insurance company" is. MY insurance company doesn't agree with you. No insurance company that I know of does either. If one that you use agrees with your position, then that is fine, but I do not base my opinions off of insurance companies.
> 
> I've had many jobs removing old disconnected knob and tube wiring just because an insurance company said it can't be there. It cost the homeowner a lot of money to have all traces of it completely removed, the insurance company didn't care if it was completely disconnected by a licensed electrician, they wanted it removed.
> 
> Insurance companies aren't the end all be all of electrical work.


Lets take two scenarios, and you tell me which is more likely to occur....


Scenario (a) Fuse blows, person grabs random fuse and installs, power is restored, all is happy, only problem is know one knows what size fuse was suppose to be installed. 

Scenario (b) circuit breaker trips, they reset breaker, power is restored, all is happy... 

That is why insurance companies hate fuses.... it really is that simple.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I completely agree with Stick on this one. The is a big difference than screwing a fuse in and changing a breaker. Screwing a fuse in is much easier in that you don't have to take the panel cover off and work in a live environment.


I agreed earlier that installing a fuse is easier than installing a breaker. However, I also mentioned that installing a breaker is safer and easier than shoving something into the socket and having it stay there and make good contact. If someone is willing to do that, then they would also be willing to install a new breaker.

It's just a difference of opinion :thumbsup:


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> I agreed earlier that installing a fuse is easier than installing a breaker. However, I also mentioned that installing a breaker is safer and easier than shoving something into the socket and having it stay there and make good contact. If someone is willing to do that, then they would also be willing to install a new breaker.
> 
> It's just a difference of opinion :thumbsup:


You were missing the point of *LIKELIHOOD* of each scenario, I know anyone can do anything they want, the point is though, the older fuse panels can accept any type fuse ranging from 15 -30 amps.... and you damn well know a person in need is just going to screw any one of those fuses in to restore power, and never think twice about it afterwords. Hell, how would they even know what size to buy anyway?

To a insurance company, this is a liability they do not WANT.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Stick brings up a good point. There really is no way to tell what fuse is supposed to be installed in that spot in the panel. Therefore, when it blows, the only thing the common homeowner has to go off of is what was installed previously.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

stickboy1375 said:


> You were missing the point of *LIKELIHOOD* of each scenario,


 No, I was not missing your opinion. Mine is just different than yours.


> I know anyone can do anything they want, the point is though, the older fuse panels can accept any type fuse ranging from 15 -30 amps.... and you damn well know a person in need is just going to screw any one of those fuses in to restore power, and never think twice about it afterwords.


 The same way that a person who has a breaker that keeps tripping will many times go to Home Depot and pickup a larger one.


> To a insurance company, this is a liability they do not WANT.


 Your insurance company and possibly others might have this requirement, but not all of them. I have worked in many houses that were newly purchased (and of course newly insured) that had fuse panels in them. The only time I had to do work for a customer because the insurance company required it was to remove K&T.


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## Phildaglass (Jul 29, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Stick brings up a good point. There really is no way to tell what fuse is supposed to be installed in that spot in the panel. Therefore, when it blows, the only thing the common homeowner has to go off of is what was installed previously.


Very true. On that same note, someone could have also previously installed a larger breaker because they were having overloads. As I have said, and I'm sure you have seen yourself, there are many panels out there with #14 on 20A breakers and even #12 on 30A breakers. Many times these are in older houses where the bathroom, kitchen, and a bedroom or two are on the same circuit.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Phildaglass said:


> Very true. On that same note, someone could have also previously installed a larger breaker because they were having overloads. As I have said, and I'm sure you have seen yourself, there are many panels out there with #14 on 20A breakers and even #12 on 30A breakers. Many times these are in older houses where the bathroom, kitchen, and a bedroom or two are on the same circuit.


To be honest, no, i dont find those, and the ones I do are legal because they are supplying motors and AC units... BUT I do find 30 amp fuses and 20 amp fuses on 14 AWG wire ALMOST every time I do a fuse box change out.


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## ionized (Jun 8, 2012)

I assumed that insurance companies pulled the trigger on fuse panels because they assume it has been a long time since the electrical system has been updated. The replacement of a fuse panel will get an electrician in to look it over for safety issues in that panel that are not inherent to fuses and maybe even to issues outside of the panel.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

As an exercise go to Home Depot or Lowes and see how many 30 amp single pole breakers they have in stock. What do they get used for?

A lot of RVs out there!


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

hohadcr said:


> I have a fuse box for a part of the house. I would like to add a breaker box.
> 
> I am going to just use the old fuse box as a conjunction box, and add the breaker box on it.
> 
> ...


 Did you ever get your answer? Seems like the thread took a twist a ways back and you didn't get a real reply. I have done what you are planning. It's a matter of running lenghts of the proper size wire from the new panel to the old. Remove the "innards" of the old panel. And since it becomes a junction box, you still must keep it accessible.:thumbsup:


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## Amazingglazier (Dec 27, 2011)

Sorry , but I find that roof thing a bit of a stretch! We still have Met Life after they cut us a check after Hurricaine Gloria in 1985 for roof damage. Cashed the check and went to Home Cheapo bought my 23 square of shingles and nails , put them on and never heard a peep from them. Had a kitchen fire in 2001 due to a friggin' oil filled air freshener that melted in the kitchen outlet, they paid out $32000, although they subrogated with American Candle and got paid back, again no reinspections or a peep from them.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Julius793 said:


> remove everything from the fuse box, buses fuses till is just an empty box with wires coming in. then extend evey wire with wire nut to your new panel.


OK, I am going to extend every wire to new panel. 

I went to local electrical supply store, they didn't think anything can be used as the "wire nut" for the connection. They didn't know what to do with the 100am wires, and they sugguested to add electrical boxes and connect wires with the twister in the boxes...

What kind of wire nut should be used here? I have 15amp, 20amp, 30. 40, 100 amp wires needed to be extended. 

Thanks.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Anyone can answer me pls??


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I am not sure why anyone would say you cannot use wire nuts to splice your wires. Wire nuts come in different sizes to accomodate the number and sizes of the conductors being spliced. A typical red would fit 2 #14 to 5 #12s. Check the label to be sure.

You will not find wire nuts large enough for your 100 amp wiring. You will need to use something like the Polaris pre-insulated connectors or split bolts and rubber and vinyl tape. The Polaris are expensive but save quite a bit of labor and are easy to use.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Where can I find something like "Polaris pre-insulated connectors " ?

Looked at HD, radioshack, Amazon.com.... Couldn't find any. 

Called local electrical supply store, they said that those connectors sold very fast, they hadn't had them in stock for a long time.

So.. help!!


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Why c an't I buy connectors like those in the breaker boxes?

I am going to run around to all the small suplly stores tomorrow to see what they have!


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

hohadcr said:


> Called local electrical supply store, they said that those connectors sold very fast, they hadn't had them in stock for a long time.


You need to find a supply house that is smart enough to restock something that sells out really fast. :whistling2:

Or try the internet. :whistling2:


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

found a connector like the pic below. They have different sizes rated for up till 100amp, 600volt. The guy in the store was not sure if these connectors are allowed as home electrical connectors.

To wrap up my question: Can I use this kind of connector to extend wires from 110, 15amp wires up to the main power supply, 100amp wire?

Any one knows?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I would like to know why the supply house thought you could not use wire nuts.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

The store helper is just a "helper". He thought it was from the section of "automobile", so it should not be for home electricals.

That's why I would like to ask some real electrician.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

anyone anyone? Can I just the connectors in the pic above?? anyone pls?


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

anyone can help ? thx


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

hohadcr said:


> anyone anyone? Can I just the connectors in the pic above?? anyone pls?


 NO
Those are rated for use in automotive / marine / low voltage applications. Use wire nuts.:yes:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Missouri Bound said:


> NO
> Those are rated for use in automotive / marine / low voltage applications. Use wire nuts.:yes:


Seriously? You've never seen those in control panels and boards? 
They are certainly for line voltage use (hence the 600V rating). They should be mounted/secured in place (just my opinion). :thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

hohadcr said:


> found a connector like the pic below. They have different sizes rated for up till 100amp, 600volt. The guy in the store was not sure if these connectors are allowed as home electrical connectors.
> 
> To wrap up my question: Can I use this kind of connector to extend wires from 110, 15amp wires up to the main power supply, 100amp wire?
> 
> Any one knows?


WHY not just get Polaris splices for the bigger wire and wire nuts for the smaller????


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Can anyone post a picture of something of "Polaris splices"?

I can't find it in local supply stores... nor on amazon.com


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

hohadcr said:


> Can anyone post a picture of something of "Polaris splices"?
> 
> I can't find it in local supply stores... nor on amazon.com


Just buy split bolts... gezz... 100 page thread going on here.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

hohadcr said:


> Can anyone post a picture of something of "Polaris splices"?
> 
> I can't find it in local supply stores... nor on amazon.com


Right from the Google link I posted above: http://www.aplussupply.com/nsipolaris/polarisconnectors.htm


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

stickboy1375 said:


> Just buy split bolts... gezz...


While these are sometimes easier to get, I am always afraid of DIYers taping up bugs. I have seen some scary bug taping jobs in my day, and one actually put me out of work for two weeks.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh , I don't have electrical tape...guess this duct tape will do.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Maybe things are different in Canada than in 84,Pa.15330,But that doesn't sound like a code approved tap.15 amp off a 100 amp wire. Or am I missing something.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> While these are sometimes easier to get, I am always afraid of DIYers taping up bugs. I have seen some scary bug taping jobs in my day, and one actually put me out of work for two weeks.


What happened?????? And pretty scary the stuff we all come across, not just DIY items either.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

In a department store lighting panel, 100A, the feeders were spliced through to a contactor after the fact to control the panel. I did not see the bare spot at the back of the bug. I was carefully trying to push the wire back into the panel to put the cover on and the bare spot hit the edge of the panel, right under my hand. Burned a deep hole in the palm of my hand and 3d deg burns all around my fingers.
I was only in the trade about 5 years at the time.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> In a department store lighting panel, 100A, the feeders were spliced through to a contactor after the fact to control the panel. I did not see the bare spot at the back of the bug. I was carefully trying to push the wire back into the panel to put the cover on and the bar spot hit the edge of the panel, right under my hand. Burned a deep hole in the palm of my hand and 3d deg burns all around my fingers.
> I was only in the trade about 5 years at the time.


Even professionals get hurt working in live panels. For us DIYers, turn the panel off before you open it.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

rjniles said:


> Even professionals get *killed* working in live panels. For us DIYers, turn the panel off before you open it.


Fixed it for you.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Sadly most don't wear the required PPE...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

stickboy1375 said:


> Sadly most don't wear the required PPE...


What is even worse would be if the worker was told to work it hot or get out of the trade or off the job.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

Jim Port said:


> What is even worse would be if the worker was told to work it hot or get out of the trade or off the job.


Absolutely... Most of it stems from bad habits, or I've performed this work hundreds of times energized, in reality, it truly is just a matter of time before someone is just not so lucky.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

*Updates:: Damm education...*

So, I did use the old box as a junction box, and used the connector shown in #64. 

Now, inspector came, and sent another electrician to come to see. 

Both said: never seen anything like this. This is crazy.

I said: It may not be the usual way, but all the connectors are well above standard (300V+, 20A+). There is no problem having wire nuts in an enclosed metal box. 

Certified Electrician said: No way in a million years, that I will approve this. You have to get it all taken out and just do the normal panel box. $700+tax. 

=====
My take on this is: Most electricians are educated in school with the standard parts and equipments. They don't think beyond the normal gears to see what really is the code, how to calculate voltage and current and find out if something is really up to code. They only know what they use in class and what they buy from their supply stores. 

Thus, the solution we came up with here is foreign to them. They don't even bother to check if this foreign thing is good. They just say NONONO!!

Damm... I wasted all the effort and money... I still need to pay an electrician to redo all the work!!!!


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Did they tell you why what you did would not pass and the code article it violated?


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> Did they tell you why what you did would not pass and the code article it violated?


I would have my code pdf ready and demand a code reference.

My only question would be did you tie all the grounds together on the ground bar.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

hohadcr said:


> =====
> My take on this is: Most electricians are educated in school with the standard parts and equipments. They don't think beyond the normal gears to see what really is the code, how to calculate voltage and current and find out if something is really up to code. They only know what they use in class and what they buy from their supply stores.


Well, your take on it is for the most part, WRONG.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "_calculate voltage and current_". That one is new to me.





hohadcr said:


> Thus, the solution we came up with here is foreign to them. They don't even bother to check if this foreign thing is good. They just say NONONO!!
> 
> Damm... I wasted all the effort and money... I still need to pay an electrician to redo all the work!!!!


Code is code. Did you bother to ask what it was that was non-complaint? Or did you simply take their word on it?
They CANNOT simply fail something because they don't like it.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Considering the over-thinking of this whole project, I am curious to see what they thought was a violation. 
Do you have any pics of the final product?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

> It may not be the usual way, but all the connectors are well above standard (300V+, 20A+).


Its been a very long time since I looked at the specs of a wirenut, but every standard wirenut is rated for 600V and does not have an amperage rating. If I remember correctly, a standard red wirenut can fit 2 #8's which would be good for 50A.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

hohadcr said:


> =====
> My take on this is: Most electricians are educated in school with the standard parts and equipments. They don't think beyond the normal gears to see what really is the code, how to calculate voltage and current and find out if something is really up to code. They only know what they use in class and what they buy from their supply stores.
> 
> Thus, the solution we came up with here is foreign to them. They don't even bother to check if this foreign thing is good. They just say NONONO!!
> ...


Look at all the time we waste here guys. All we need to do is that simple stuff like voltage and current calculations. :furious::no:


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Right now, insurance company's inspector is asking for an electrian's write-off. So far, two electricians looked at it and basically said it has to be redone or no way i will pass it. 

They don't bother to show me the codes... either let them redo it or good luck finding one electrician who will be willing to check all the codes and pass it.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

Can you post pictures of the junction box you have and let us try to help you?


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

Most electricians will refuse to sign off on someones work. You may have to get an electrical inspector to sign off on your work.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Let me get this straight. You are looking for an electrician to sign off on your work??? 
I was wondering why an electrician was involved. No, they don't have to tell you anything. If they look at it and don't like what they see that can just walk. 
Personally, when someone calls for this kind of thing, and they do, I just tell them no over the phone. An electrician would be out of his mind to put his name on someone's DIY work.

WHY are you doing it this way anyway? Why not just get it inspected yourself?


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## dftc (Nov 12, 2012)

I guess I can't see why you are insisting on doing this a non-standard way when the standard is easy, inexpensive, and proven safe.

I had to turn an old panel into a junction box about a year ago. It wasn't hard and didn't require anything that can't be found in the electrical aisle at any big box store.

I really think that you should just pay someone to do this work for you. This isn't the sort of thing you want to experiment with.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Back then, all electricians quoted $1200+ to do the work, with a lot of plus plus plus if ....

I got to the bottom of it and did it myself. Well, material cost a lot more than I thought.. Just a new panel box was $$$...

Now, insurance wants electrician to write off it. Electrians won't write off it....

Basically, this world has evolved that you shouldn't do anything yourself... Always need to rely on others just to be accepted in the system..

Thank you guys for replying to the thread. I myself is very disappointed with the evolvement ...


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

hohadcr said:


> Back then, all electricians quoted $1200+ to do the work, with a lot of plus plus plus if ....
> 
> I got to the bottom of it and did it myself. Well, material cost a lot more than I thought.. Just a new panel box was $$$...
> 
> ...


You could hire an electrical inspector to inspect your work. And you could post pictures here so we can see if we notice anything that should be done different.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

hohadcr said:


> Back then, all electricians quoted $1200+ to do the work, with a lot of plus plus plus if ....
> 
> I got to the bottom of it and did it myself. Well, material cost a lot more than I thought.. Just a new panel box was $$$...
> 
> ...


Well, you can blame your insurance company for all this then. There is no "system" to be accepted into. The electricians and inspectors have nothing to do with your insurance company. In fact, I find it VERY questionable that your ins co is asking for this. Really what they are asking for is someone to blame if something goes wrong.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

rrolleston said:


> You could hire an electrical inspector to inspect your work. And you could post pictures here so we can see if we notice anything that should be done different.


Apparently that's not good enough for his ins co.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I am itching to see pictures.


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## ionized (Jun 8, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Its been a very long time since I looked at the specs of a wirenut, but every standard wirenut is rated for 600V and does not have an amperage rating. If I remember correctly, a standard red wirenut can fit 2 #8's which would be good for 50A.


I know that I have some that I've been avoided using in fluorescent ballast replacement because they are not rated to 600V. It is kind of a PITA to remember. IIRC, the lesser ones are rated 300V. Yea, I know, they'd probably be fine


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

ionized said:


> I know that I have some that I've been avoided using in fluorescent ballast replacement because they are not rated to 600V. It is kind of a PITA to remember. IIRC, the lesser ones are rated 300V. Yea, I know, they'd probably be fine


Baby blue wire nuts are listed at 300 volts.


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## philS (Jul 10, 2007)

My god what a thread! But back to an earlier point. In my county, we use a 2 out of 3 rule for meter, panel, and SE cable. If you replace only one, they'll grandfather most things that are not up to current code on the other 2. If you replace 2, you have to replace the third. Makes sense to me (and it saved me a pile of work because my very long SE cable is 3 wire, not 4.) Is that policy unusual?


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

philS said:


> My god what a thread! But back to an earlier point. In my county, we use a 2 out of 3 rule for meter, panel, and SE cable. If you replace only one, they'll grandfather most things that are not up to current code on the other 2. If you replace 2, you have to replace the third. Makes sense to me (and it saved me a pile of work because my very long SE cable is 3 wire, not 4.) Is that policy unusual?


All SE cable is 3 wire. SER cable is 4 wire


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## philS (Jul 10, 2007)

rrolleston said:


> All SE cable is 3 wire. SER cable is 4 wire


 Looks me to like it's all properly referred to as SE cable, that the distiction you're making is between SEU and SER. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 

In any case, this wasn't the question that I asked.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

philS said:


> Looks me to like it's all properly referred to as SE cable, that the distiction you're making is between SEU and SER. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> In any case, this wasn't the question that I asked.


SEU 3 wires SER 4 wires


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## philS (Jul 10, 2007)

rrolleston said:


> SEU 3 wires SER 4 wires


Good. I'm glad we agree


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Ok, my work was not clean.... but this was my fix


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## dftc (Nov 12, 2012)

So, did it pass inspection?

You could definitely clean it up a bunch. That might make the inspector have a little more faith in the quality of your work.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

How about try using wirenuts in place of those terminal strips? Between the terminal strip and the messy work, those are probably the two biggest factors working against you right now.


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## hohadcr (Jul 25, 2009)

Well, Insurance inspection said never seen it, need a note from an electrician. 

Electrician said never seen it, you will have to replace all that. 

This world has trained most people to only think in one way,and do things in one way, the way that is shown on text book. People have lost the ability to reason...

So, in the end, to pass insurance by getting an OK from an electrician, I had to take all that down, and let the electrician to totally redo the relay. 

Cost me $$$. 

Isn't that sad!


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

No I think there is a certain way things are done because it works, its been tested and approved, and then it gets put in to the books as "this is how you do it." Just because you wanted to do it your way, doesn't make everyone else wrong for saying it can't be done that way. Sure I've seen those terminal strips in a control panel before, but that control panel is listed and approved to use those strips in that manner. Given the situation if it was me I was have used the wire nuts.

Also, I couldn't tell from your picture if you actually extended each and every wire to the new panel, it kinda looks like the grounds and neutrals may have been grouped together. Is your new panel right next to the old fuse box on the right?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

rrolleston said:


> SEU 3 wires SER 4 wires


SEU : Two Conductor With Bare Concentric Ground (Formerly referred to as “Three Conductor”)

SER is available as 2 conductor (2 insulated phase conductors, bare ground), 3 conductor (2 insulated phase conductors, insulated neutral, bare equipment ground), or 4 conductor (3 insulated phase conductors, insulated neutral, bare equipment ground)


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

hohadcr said:


> Well, Insurance inspection said never seen it, need a note from an electrician.
> 
> Electrician said never seen it, you will have to replace all that.
> 
> ...


The world does not train people how to do stuff, it is how they teach themselves to learn, and those that teach them how to do stuff, is how they learn to do stuff. Seeing that this thread has been going on for a year now, on the same thing, I cannot see that it has taken up to this point to get it inspected, and find out it was wrong from the beginning.

There is a reason why there are code books, and there is also information available to home owners like the Black & Decker Complete home wiring book, and also some local community colleges have certification courses that you can take, along with trade schools to learn how to do this stuff.

Some like myself have been doing this stuff for over 35 years, and grew up in a family of electricians and contractors, so it is pretty much embedded how to do stuff, and think stuff out before jumping into it. Especially electrical, because it does matter how it is done from the start.

Easiest way to burn a house down, is do electrical incorrect by not following the correct procedures.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

gregzoll said:


> Easiest way to burn a house down, is do electrical incorrect by not following the correct procedures.


great point greg, that's why in Massachusetts a home owner can build their structure but the electrical permit must be pulled by a state licensed master electrician (doesn't mean they have to do the work) so that someone is responsible and liable for the work when something goes wrong.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

While that setup is definitely different if those connectors are properly rated I don't see why they'd freak out over it. I still would have used wire nuts though as the closer you stay to "standard" the less trouble they'll give you. 

Question is why is your insurance company all over this anyway? You need to tell them "I got my panel changed" not "I changed my panel". It's all in the wording, and it's not really lying either way.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

theatretch85 said:


> How about try using wirenuts in place of those terminal strips? Between the terminal strip and the messy work, those are probably the two biggest factors working against you right now.


Only time I have seen or used terminal strips, is wiring control panels in the Navy. That is only because you never use wire nuts. Everything is either crimped with heat shrink and coating of 3m rubber coating, or wired to a terminal block. Of course, that is also why Wago came out with their connectors for use in residential and commercial installations, but a one time use only product, unlike a wire nut.


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