# Double shower drain vent question.



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Is this how you are proposing to vent the shower? 

Do you know what a flat vent is?


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Hi Hammerlane. Thanks for the reply.



hammerlane said:


> Is this how you are proposing to vent the shower?
> 
> Do you know what a flat vent is?


I know what a flat vent is now!  This was just a very crude mock up to get the question out there.

So, if I were to rotate that wye so it comes off of the top, keep the run to the wall on an incline and then tie into the vertical portion, would that still not be acceptable since it's horizontal below the sink fixture. (That vertical portion ties into the sink vent in the attic and then exits through the roof vent, btw, if that makes a difference).

I'm a little confused on this one. Need to do a little more research. Any advice is appreciated.

Tom


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

That's not legal here. I don't know what code you are under. Also don't use that style of p-trap unless it's accessible.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Where are the shower walls located?


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Alan, the bathroom is above the garage, so the P trap can be accesible if I choose. It's currently open from below.

E, I'll have to upload a photo when I get home later. It will definitely be easier to visualize where the walls of the shower will be. Basically, 30"Wx60"L with two ~16"Lx42"H "walls" on either side with glass and entry door in between.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ok, here we go. . .

Crude pic, but hopefully you get the idea. 2x4 walls will be built to house a 32x60" walk in shower. 

Tan = back wall
Black = side walls
Blue = front walls
Red = old shower stall and drain
Green = sink wall

The drain will fall roughly where it is placed. Below is the garage. The sinks will be on the wall to the right - you can see the drain rough in for the left sink at the bottom right of the pic.

Originally, the shower stall was in the left corner (the next joist bay to the left for the drain) and there was a sink facing the camera roughly where the lights are hanging from the ceiling. The stack and terlit are in the bottom left of the pic. The shower used a wet vent via the sink. I'm not sure I am expressing this correctly. . .I'll dig up a pic. 

So what options do I have? How do I vent that shower drain without a flat vent?

Tom


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Without looking real hard for alternate methods- I'd put the line back in it's original joist bay- vent 1.5" up the new blue wall on the left side by using a 2x2x1.5" combo on it's back. then run the 2" trap arm into the shower and use a long sweep 90 to turn through the joist to the trap into the next bay- your proposed location. Now your vent is 100% vertical


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

2 problems. . .

1. The vent pipe would have to make that 45 degree turn inside the blue wall, then another 45 to become horizontal, and then travel roughly halfway through that upper blue wall because there is absolutely no room to work up there in the attic. Where that current vent pipe sits was cramped enough!

2. To enter the attic, it would have to go through two plates. . .

My head is beginning to throb. . .:wallbash:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Do you have more room on the right side?
Drilling plates is plumbing rough-in 101 :thumbsup:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ha! I guess that came out the wrong way. I've done way more than my share of "construction" (and destruction!) over the years. Drilling through a plate is certainly not a problem. I'm not sure it would be a slam dunk. . .this house has not been very cooperative! If something can be in the way or require 5 additional pain in the @ss steps to accomplish, it's happened at EVERY turn. Yes, there is plenty of room from that vent pipe over (to the right) as this is heading towards the middle of the attic. It would be ideal to use that existing vent pipe, but I'll go take a peek an see what's a' doin' up there again. . .


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ok, after I came down from snooping around, the insulation dust went to my brain and I had a thought. . .

What if I were to move the drain back to the original joist bay like you suggested (which I'm still not _completely_ sure how to do :huh, and when I come up the left side blue wall and get above 42":

1. take it through the studs on the side wall (black), then
2. with a 90 el or 2 45s, go across the back wall (tan), and then
3. 90 el up into the existing vent pipe (that connects with the sink vent in the attic and exits through the roof vent).

Like the white in this pic. Ignore the top white line - I don't think that's an option.

Thoughts??


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

TALDE said:


> 1. take it through the studs on the side wall (black), then
> 2. with a 90 el or 2 45s, go across the back wall (tan), and then
> 3. 90 el up into the existing vent pipe (that connects with the sink vent in the attic and exits through the roof vent).


That could work.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

It looks like the wall on the left is an exterior wall. It would be a lot easier to just go straight up and pay a roofer 50 bucks to put a jack on for you, i think. :thumbup:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Alan said:


> It looks like the wall on the left is an exterior wall. It would be a lot easier to just go straight up and pay a roofer 50 bucks to put a jack on for you, i think. :thumbup:


Thanks for the suggestion, Alan, but I wouldn't do that since:
1. there's no room in the attic to get into that area
2. the vent would be too close to the gutter, and
3. I wouldn't want a third vent in that area of the roof.

So. . .put on your imagination caps on with me. :jester:

Here's a quick mock up with some stuff I had laying around (these are 1.5 inch for demo purpose only). It looks like I can squeeze by in the inside portion of the 16"W (blue) wall. Like you said E, come from the trap arm, through the joist with a long 90, add a wye on it's back and take the vent up vertically in the wall, and then continue on to the stack. *Looking at the pics, what would be best to connect the last horizontal run. . .2 45s? 2 60s? 2 22s? (Less acute the better?)

*Also, 2 questions about the sink drains. The original was 1.25 inch going into the stack. *Is this 1.5"x1.25" into the stack a no no? * If so, if I can cut just behind the bolt I (may??) be able to get a 2" part of the 1.5"x2" fernco screwed on there.

*Do they make long turn 45s?? Is this 45 asking for trouble (draining from the sinks)?

*That's all for now. It's been a long two days at "real" work. :sleeping: Thanks!

Tom


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

You would be turned down if I inspected you as soon as I saw the rubber fernco fittings.......


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> You would be turned down if I inspected you as soon as I saw the rubber fernco fittings.......


Dammit. Ok...don't come over just yet....

Don't leave me hangin'...ferncos no bueno?


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Use proper band adapter fittings. Ferncos are no good they do not hold shape. Use mission brand transitional couplings.


http://www.wamhomecenter.com/productcart/pc/Specialty-Transition-Couplings-c1560.htm

Where your tying in isn't that galvanized nipples. Why not hit them with some oil to loosen them and unscrew them and just buy the threaded plastic adapter to screw in there.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

And btw, it's spider, fly, and heat season....I need to close this thing this weekend!


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Gotcha! Thanks for the quick reply, Ghost. You rock! 
Are they available at supply stores?

Is the short 45 and ladies choice for the last run ok?

Tom


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Just make sure you vent up by the shower with a tee on its back and vent the lav also... Off the top after picking up the lav. Have fun... Get yourself a 3 foor pipe wrench and a cheater bar to unscrew the galvanized nipples. Use a teflon pipe dope to screw in the PVC plastic threaded adapter.. No biggy.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Sorry, Ghost....didn't see that paragraph after the link. I tried with Herculean might to loosen that fitting on the 2 inch...gave me a hernia and wouldn't budge. I didn't even try the 1.5. I could give it a shot tomorrow. I wire brushed the 2 inch, but the adapter wouldn't thread on...


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ok, so a tee instead of the wye? Got it. 

I'm not sure I get what your saying with "off the top after picking up the lav." 

The sinks are vented separately (in my thread "double sink rough in...". The vent pipe meets the vent pipe (that is in the shower area) in the attic and has a tee to the roof vent. Shower vent--->tee<---sink vent---> roof vent. Am I understanding correctly?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Your heirarchy of drainage goes like this (Fixture first)

Fixture

Tailpiece

Trap

Trap arm

Vent

Drain


No other fixtures should be tied in between a fixture and it's vent. 


There are certain situations where you can do some tricky things, but for a beginner on a second floor with limited space, i'd recommend keeping it simple.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Thanks, Alan.

Here's a pic from my other thread (Double sink rough in. . .). The vent pipe you see here from the sinks goes to the attic and tees in with the vent pipe from the shower and exits through the roof vent. There are no other fixtures between the sink vent--->roof vent. . . .and between the shower vent--->roof vent.

Good??


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

That is all fine, but not what he was talking about. He's making sure you don't have the wye for the lavs between your shower vent and the shower trap.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ok, that's what I thought. Totally separate. Thanks for the clarification. :thumbsup:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

OK. . .I'm back after a long hiatus!! 

Unfortunately, I had to take some time off from the remodel over the summer and fall. . .but the last time I was in there, I grabbed all of my supplies and tools and threw them all up in the air and when I came out of the big puff of smoke like the Tasmanian Devil, here is where I left off. . .

* All of the plumbing, drains, and venting to the double sinks is roughed in and functional with no leaks. . .
* The shower area is roughed in, insulated, and all of the plumbing is roughed in and functional with no leaks. . .

You can see from the pic below how I decided to run the shower vent to the roof. Don't ask how I accomplished that so masterfully  It was a bear! (Although it's just dry fitted right now). 
















A "E" suggested and as you can see from the pic below. . .I plan to run the trap arm through the joist into the "original" joist bay, connect to a long 90, tie into the vent, and then continue to the stack. 









So, a few (hopefully easy) questions . . .

*1. Does the trap arm need to be level, pitched towards the p-trap, or pitched away from p-trap? And is there a maximum length requirement?*

*2. Are there any specific requirements regarding the pitch of the drain pipe between the long 90 and where it ties in to the vent (dotted line)?*
*
3. As long as there is proper pitch towards the stack in the remaining section of drain (1/4" per foot?), does it matter how I accomplish this? It looks like a 22.5 degree ---> 22.5 degree (blue arrows) ---> long 90 will work best.*

And look, Ghostmaker. . .transitional couplings!

Thanks in advance!

Tom


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

That looks good!
All horizontal drain lines need to be pitched/graded/sloped, etc. to the drain stack-or away from the trap at 1/4" per ft. This includes the trap arm.

you can offset using 22's or 45's- avoid anymore 90's


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Where to begin?
Those nice rubber fittings with radiator clamps Illegal fitting.
You need to vent the shower in a vertical position.
*You should unscrew the nipples out of the cast iron and screw in MIP plastic adaptors with teflon tape and pipe dope on the threads.
*
You must of posted right when I was typing.

The bold part eliminates 2 easy leaks in your future.

Also Use a all glue trap. Not a LA trap with nut. You can not bury them. They are also another pointless leak.

Wheres the lavatory sink?

Are you installing a base or a pan for tile?

Also the code requires your shower to be 2 inch because it is now a wet vent for the toilet.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

TALDE said:


> Sorry, Ghost....didn't see that paragraph after the link. I tried with Herculean might to loosen that fitting on the 2 inch...gave me a hernia and wouldn't budge. I didn't even try the 1.5. I could give it a shot tomorrow. I wire brushed the 2 inch, but the adapter wouldn't thread on...



You use a 3 foot pipe wrench. You tighten first the loosen easy...

An Old plumbers trick:thumbup:

Even a pipe wrench with a cheater add on will work.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> Where to begin?
> Those nice rubber fittings with radiator clamps Illegal fitting.
> You need to vent the shower in a vertical position.
> *You should unscrew the nipples out of the cast iron and screw in MIP plastic adaptors with teflon tape and pipe dope on the threads.
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Ghost! 

Maybe you went too far back in this thread with regard to the pics . . .

* I have transition couplings (as you had suggested earlier) on the stack, not radiator hoses with clamps.

* Ideally, I would like to get those nipples off, but they were tough. Maybe I will oil them up overnight and try again. . .

* That is an all glue trap sitting there which I plan to use (even though I will have access to it) and all of those pvc drain pipes are/will be 2". The vent portion in the wall is 1.5". . .are you saying THAT needs to be 2" also?? I hope not! And do you not agree that it is vertical?

* There are two lavs will be on the wall to the right - you can make out the rough in for the left sink if you look closely at the first pic above.

* I'm leaning towards the Schluter-Kerdi kit for the tile. The shower is six inches longer (66") than the best fitting kit (32x60), so I will either do all wet bed or use the kit and and just extended it 3 inches on both sides with the mud. I'm leaning towards the latter at this point . . .

Thanks!

Tom


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghost, for clarification, here is what the wall to the right with the lavs looks like. . .


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Alan said:


> It looks like the wall on the left is an exterior wall. It would be a lot easier to just go straight up and pay a roofer 50 bucks to put a jack on for you, i think. :thumbup:


 Would he have room to increase the vent belowthe roof line that way though if required in his area?:wink:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> You use a 3 foot pipe wrench. You tighten first the loosen easy...
> 
> An Old plumbers trick:thumbup:
> 
> Even a pipe wrench with a cheater add on will work.


 Heat the fitting theyre screwed into first with a torch then turn them out,Son of a blacksmiths trick.:laughing:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Thanks, plummen. 

At this point, I think I'm pretty much settled on the routing of the vents. There was no room to work in the attic in that area because of the angled ceiling. That's why I ran it the way I did. Once the shower vent enters the attic I will will T it together with the vent from the lavs and then tie into the original roof vent. 

As far as the nipples go....I took a peek last night and (on the 2 inch going into the stack) I already cut directly behind it, leaving about two inches of the threaded cast iron. As had been suggested, I was planning on using a transition coupling. This is what I have on there. I can provide a pic for clarity if need be. 

Fernco Proflex
http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/shielded-couplings/proflex-couplings

Tom


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Looks good sorry about the confusion. Just make sure you pitch all the pipe so it drains and support it at 4 foot intervals. Plastic pipe will sag if not supported.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

No need for apologies. . .thanks for the help! :thumbsup:

I'm guessing it would be a long, long time from now if those proflex couplings ever "failed." Technically, everything will be accessible - the whole bathroom is above the garage. The previous homeowner definitely had a shower leak because they cut and repaired the drywall on the garage ceiling (with thin plywood!) in certain areas. I actually spent a little time making two hinged, fold-down "doors" in those repaired areas in case I ever need to get to anything.

The drain hole in the shower is cut. . .so I guess I'll see what kind of trouble I can get into tomorrow drilling through the joist for the trap arm. . .

Tom


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Surprisingly. . .not too much trouble today!  The 58 year old, petrified joist wasn't all that fun to drill through (awkwardly) overhead, but I was able to get everything pretty much mocked up and ready to go without too much damage to my rotator cuff. I drilled through the joist down a bit from the floor boards (for comfort and in case I ever needed to get my hands in there . . .), but I actually could have used that extra inch or so towards the top to make sloping everything towards the stack a tad bit easier.  Oh well, I could notch it up a bit further :no: . . . but it looks like I have plenty of wiggle room after notching the 2x4 right after it picks up the vent instead. Here are few pics for anyone who's interested/bored. Since we all like pics. . .:yes:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

The san tee on its back under floor should be a wye.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I'm confused. :confused1: It was recommended to use a sanitary t (post #21). Is this a code issue...or personal preference?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

For absolute code compliance it should be a combo. However, given the lack of space a santee is excepted by my inspectors as long as nothing drains into the vent


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

plummen said:


> The san tee on its back under floor should be a wye.


Not for a vent... Not required


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

You said somewhere you were fastening the transition couplings to the threads of the galvanized That may be a potential leak area. Not to mention that is the weak part of a nipple. It would have been better to cut the threads off then use the coupling. Make sure you fill it with water and look for leaks before covering.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Not for a vent... Not required


 Ive had inspectors in omaha btch about them in the past even on a vent,just depends on inspector and mood hesin i guess.:laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> You said somewhere you were fastening the transition couplings to the threads of the galvanized That may be a potential leak area. Not to mention that is the weak part of a nipple. It would have been better to cut the threads off then use the coupling. Make sure you fill it with water and look for leaks before covering.


 It never hurts to slop a little pvc cement around the inside of the rubber before sliding it over a metal fitting like that also,cheap insurance policy.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Many thanks to everyone, again, for the responses. 

I purposely (try) to avoid asking too many questions at one time. . .rather, taking it step by step. . .and you guys have been great at anticipating my next inquiry. . .:thumbsup:

1. Sooo, san tee is good, yes? And my imaginary inspector will imaginarily eek approve my inspection? All kidding aside, I want to do things the right/legal/acceptable/safe way.

2. Ghost, you were right on my next question about the coupling over the threads. This area was my next concern. I hope I'm not saying something stupid here. . .but BOTH drains ("sink(s)" and shower) are threaded all the way into the stack. If you look at the pic below, it may be more clear. I have 2 lavs draining with 1.5" then reducing into the (original) 1.25". As you can see, the coupling is right on the original galvanized. (I hope that is ok. . .?) 

The 2" originally had a short 90 going in there from the shower. So, it was all thread, baby. I just cut the 2" right behind the nipple which left about 2 inches of threads which the coupling is now over. *Thoughts??*

P.S. The light bulb is there in case I need an idea. . .









3. Cement won't degrade the rubber over time?

Tom


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Nope the pvc cement wont hurt the rubber,I wasz taught to do that many years ago by an old plumber I worked for any time we'd replace any part of a cast iron stack that was behind a wall we always did it on both ends of no-hub couplings before attaching to the cast.
There was a plumbing inspector in south omaha named Jack Grainger who died a few years back,Hell of a guy taught me a lot over the years.
Anyway there were 3 basic things he would check for on a job.
1-Water heater drip leg had to be double the o.d of pipe or copper off of floor.
2-The 5' rule on washing washing drain tie ins.
3-san tees anywhere but in vertical position were a no no with him,didnt matter what it was doing.:laughing:
He made me cut out a 4x2 santee on an existing cast iron over head line on a condemmed house one time,he didnt care that it had been there 40 years.:laughing:
Rest in peace Jack,we all miss you back here.:thumbup:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I guess that assures that you'll never get that m*ther off!


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

They will come back off,the rubber will still remain flexible .
It just helps fill in some of the surface inperfections in cast iron or steel pipe/fittings is all.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Hopefully, I will never have to find out!


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I like it all but------

The 1.5" should not tie into 1.25" If at all possible- remove the bushing from the cast and thread in a male adapter as mentioned earlier.
Drainage pipe size reduction is a no-no. They're prone to clog.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Tie your 1 1/2 inch into your 2 inch shower drain with a y and use a scd. 40 pvc cap on the small pipe with a pvc nipple.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

TheEplumber said:


> I like it all but------
> 
> The 1.5" should not tie into 1.25" If at all possible- remove the bushing from the cast and thread in a male adapter as mentioned earlier.
> Drainage pipe size reduction is a no-no. They're prone to clog.
> ...


Whoa! 

Ok, for the first time, I felt pretty confused when I read these replies. Maybe because it's 3AM. . .

E, I thought this might be the case. Do you remember when you were a little kid and your mom told you to go take a bath and you closed the door and just sat outside of the tub and splashed the water around hoping that she thought you were actually taking a bath??! :shifty: I knew the 1.5" into 1.25" wasn't going to fly, although I was hoping it would and I wouldn't get caught! Busted . . .Ha ha!

So, when you say "remove the bushing," are you saying put a pipe wrench on that "nut" and try to remove that existing piece of galvanized pipe from the stack . . .and then thread in a new nipple and essentially "cap" it with a "scd. 40 pvc cap" as Ghost has mentioned? Not to be flippant (at all!), but I can't find where that was mentioned. Again, it's 3AM! The scd. cap is greek to me, but after a quick image search, I think I understand. 

I would then use a 45 street? from the 1.5" into the wye and a (probably) 90 street? from the shower drain into the wye and have them both drain into the stack via the same route? 

Am I understanding this correctly?? 

For some reason, I see bad things happening trying to get that thing out of there. . .

You guys are awesome!

My bed is screaming for me. . .:sleep1:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

And I'll check tomorrow (today!), but I don't think I have enough room in there to do that.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Doesn't look like I would have enough room to get the 90 on the 2" drain....
(Sorry for the poor quality pic of a pic).


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Ignore the 1.25" for now- it will be capped
Try it like this and bush the end of the Y to 1.5"-


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I'm not sure I understand... and I'm not sure what you mean by "bush the end of the Y to 1.5"...” I'm not even sure how to ask the question...

Are you saying use a 2" wye whereby the 2" drain would connect into it from the right (into the red line on the right that you drew)....and then bring the 1.5" over in the previous joist bay and then join the the 2" wye after going through the joist?

And then the 1.25” from the stack would then just get capped?

Sorry for the confusion.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

TALDE said:


> I'm not sure I understand... and I'm not sure what you mean by "bush the end of the Y to 1.5"...” I'm not even sure how to ask the question...
> 
> Are you saying use a 2" wye whereby the 2" drain would connect into it from the right (into the red line on the right that you drew)....and then bring the 1.5" over in the previous joist bay and then join the the 2" wye after going through the joist?
> 
> ...


Now I know how doctors feel when the patient says- use English please. :laughing:
Here is the pictures explaination:
The 1.25" galv. nipple- cap and abandon because you can't get the nipple/bushing out
Roll the wye over and connect the shower to the wye's branch using the 45
Now off the other end of the wye thats pointing toward the lav, reduce it with a 2x1.5" fitting bushing or reducing coupling to receive the 1.5" lav line (it will need to offset to align with the wye)

I'm making an assumption the you have room to use this fitting arrangement. :wink:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

> Now I know how doctors feel when the patient says- use English please. :laughing:


This comment couldn't possibly hit any closer to home!! :laughing:




> Here is the pictures explaination:
> The 1.25" galv. nipple- cap and abandon because you can't get the nipple/bushing out
> Roll the wye over and connect the shower to the wye's branch using the 45
> Now off the other end of the wye thats pointing toward the lav, reduce it with a 2x1.5" fitting bushing or reducing coupling to receive the 1.5" lav line (it will need to offset to align with the wye)
> ...


So I DID understand it the first time! I have to go eat. . .I'll be back in a few to explain myself!! :laughing:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ok, I'm stuffed. Time for an adult bev. . . :drink:

So, reading back over the last few posts, I see how it's sometimes hard to get you're point across when you're swapping mini monologues instead of having an actual dialogue! I work in surgery and I remember a doc many years ago when I was in training saying to me, _"What is obvious to YOU is not always obvious to someone else." _Unfortunately, sometimes on a forum like this, we spend more time trying to explain something that is so easily discussed in 15 seconds. But I digress. . .



> Now I know how doctors feel when the patient says- use English please. :laughing:
> Here is the pictures explaination:
> 
> The 1.25" galv. nipple- cap and abandon because you can't get the nipple/bushing out
> ...


Yes, I understood all of that completely.



> I'm making an assumption the you have room to use this fitting arrangement. :wink:


_This_ is why I was confused. . .because you didn't mention that before. IOW, I thought it could easily been seen in the pic that if I flipped the wye on it's back (like you suggested), I would have have to offset the 1.5" coming from the lavs _before_ where it currently goes through the joist, subsequently having to drill yet another hole through the concrete joist to tie into the the aforementioned wye now on it's back. I thought you were overlooking the fact that I would have to do something like this. . .That's why I tried to then clarify my confusion. I guess it wasn't obvious! 

I thought we were trying to get everything synched up in the _current_ joist bay. . .and in _either_ wye position, that ain't gonna work because there isn't enough room. 

So long story longest. . .this is the best/only way to do this, right? 

1. cap the 1.25" nipple (black)
2. cut and offset the 1.5" coming from the lavs _in the previous joist bay_ using a 1.5" 45 (purple) -----> 1.5x2" coupler (green) and then
3. tie into the wye on it's back via a short piece of straight 2" going through the joist (blue) and into said wye (red). 

Yes??







(It won't be that close to the joist, the pic is cut off to demonstrate well. If I remember, it's a little crowded in that bay. Time to go take another peek. Hopefully, it's doable).

Beer, please. . .:drink:


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

I only speak ugh plumber....


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> Now I know how doctors feel when the patient says- use English please. :laughing:
> Here is the pictures explaination:
> The 1.25" galv. nipple- cap and abandon because you can't get the nipple/bushing out
> Roll the wye over and connect the shower to the wye's branch using the 45
> ...


Yeah its usually followed by a look like this from the customer!:laughing:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ahhh, Stewie. I bet he could take care of this, no problem.

In all seriousness, without rehashing where some of the confusion came in (and getting back to "ugh" level), here's where we're at. . .

In it's current state, there's not enough room between the stack and that joist to use a wye. The "staight part" of the wye would probably be ok to receive the 1.5" from the lavs after an offset and then through another hole in the joist (that sounds a little dirty :whistling2 . . .*But it's the "45 portion" of the wye that's the problem - it's too close to the joist to tie into the shower drain. *In the pic of the pic I posted, I just l put the wye on there for illustration purposes. In actuality, it would be more like this. . .and be no bueno for tying into the shower drain. Na' meen??








So, I was thinking (this is where it gets dangerous). . .

I remember E mentioning a "combo" back when we were discussing going from the shower drain to the vertical vent. Sorry if I have the lingo or parts wrong. . .*but would a combo be acceptable here?* I still don't think it will work, but I can try.

In other news, I'm going to see if I can steal a big pipe wrench from one of the plumbers at work. If I can get that back nipple out, I can put a new 1.5" in there and connect to the lavs and then just leave the shower drain as is. 

Orrrrr. . .I can just leave all as is and hope I'm dead by the time the 1.5" to 1.25" clogs. . .

Aye carumba.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I'm starting to get a headache. . .:wallbash: I was hoping this thread would have ended pages ago :laughing:. I feel like I am spinning my wheels here, so I would really welcome some final, "If I were you, here's what I would do. . ." recommendations. Then I can just choose one and go.

So . . .I heated that connection for the 1.5" going into the stack repeatedly and it's not going to budge. I'm going to abandon the idea of getting that thing out of there. . .the last thing I want right now is to have to replace the stack. Maybe I should have called Stewie. . .









I tried both the wye and the combo, but neither will work because there is not enough room between the stack and the joist to tie into the shower drain. So here are the options I am considering. . .

*Option #1*
*Just leave everything as is. * The only issue is the 1.5" sink drain transitioning into 1.25" going into the stack. Not that it can be telling or quantitative in any way, but I put a supply line fully opened up into that drain and it takes about 10 seconds or so before the water backs up and comes back out of where the trap will be. I'm assuming that even two full sinks of water draining through that line are not going to create this kind of pressure. Moreover, it will be a rare occasion (if ever at this current time) that both sinks will be used at the same time. As far as any future clogging at the transition. . .I guess that's why we have snakes??!  I know this isn't the _best_ solution, but as long as it's up to "code" (not sure that it is), this is the direction I'm leaning.  I'm guessing I will be dead before I encounter any problems. Any thoughts??

*Option #2*
*I'm not sure this is even an option. . .but would using a sanitary tee going into the stack from the shower drain be acceptable? *(My Spidey senses tell me no). The overall "length" is shorter than the wye or combo and would allow me to tie both the shower and lav drains into it by means of something like this that was suggested before. Of course, it will be more work and a little trickier to get the slopes right because of the supply lines, tight spaces, etc., and it also means drilling another hole in the joist - very close to the one already drilled for the sink drains. And 2" would be enough to drain both the shower and both lavs?









*Option #3*
Divine intervention. . .:innocent:

So if you were me, what would you choose? Thanks!

PS I had to laugh when I saw "Schedule 40 PVC" printed on the pipes. Ohhhhhh. . ."scd 40 pvc cap". . .that's what he meant. . .:laughing:


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

You install a 2 by 1.5 by 1.5 inch y not a 2 inch y.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Did you mean 2 by *2* by 1.5?? Where the sanitary tee is?

(2 inch at the stack, 2 inch for the shower drain, and 1.5 inch for the lavs (without the reducer. . .duh!)

If not, then I don't know what the heck you are talking about again! :laughing:


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

TALDE said:


> So . . .I heated that connection for the 1.5" going into the stack repeatedly and it's not going to budge.


You need a bigger wrench. :yes:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Alan said:


> You need a bigger wrench. :yes:


That would probably help! I still may see if I can borrow one from work and maybe give it another shot. . .


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

2 by 1.5 by 2 wye


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

TALDE said:


> That would probably help! I still may see if I can borrow one from work and maybe give it another shot. . .


A 36" pipe wrench will usually do the trick if you can make room for it in there. Especially if you can heat the female portion of the joint while loosening. Make sure you turn it the right way. Have you tried soaking the joint with penetrating oil?


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> 2 by 1.5 by 2 wye


Ok. That's what I thought. Thanks.

If the 2 by 1.5 by 2 is "short" like that sanitary tee, it may work. If it's longer like all of the wyes and combos that I have seen, it won't work because the angle (the 45 part accepting the shower drain) is too close to the joist (it needs to be "90" like that san tee). The 1.5" accepting the sink drain would also be too close, effectively connecting "inside" the joist.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Alan said:


> A 36" pipe wrench will usually do the trick if you can make room for it in there. Especially if you can heat the female portion of the joint while loosening. Make sure you turn it the right way. Have you tried soaking the joint with penetrating oil?


I haven't tried the oil yet. I thought I would try the heat first to lessen the chance of setting things on fire! :furious:


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

the 1.5 inch of the wye should fit into your joist hole. By the way did you use primer and glue on your joints?

I only ask because I'm not seeing purple primer.


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## Javiles (Dec 12, 2011)

> Option #2
> I'm not sure this is even an option. . .but would using a sanitary tee going into the stack from the shower drain be acceptable?


whats the stack servicing or venting ??


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Ghostmaker said:


> the 1.5 inch of the wye should fit into your joist hole. By the way did you use primer and glue on your joints?
> 
> I only ask because I'm not seeing purple primer.


Primer is not required here for sanitary drainage. We use it anyway, but don't need it.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> the 1.5 inch of the wye should fit into your joist hole. By the way did you use primer and glue on your joints?
> 
> I only ask because I'm not seeing purple primer.


After I drill a new hole for the 1.5" lav drain pipe, you mean? Yes. I just thought it would be odd to have the joint "inside" the joist. 

This is still a "work in progress," hence, none of the joints in the pics you see are glued yet. They're just dry fitted at this point. I did, however, already glue the lav joints at the wall/floor transition and at the 45 (which you don't see in the pics) which then continues into the stack (which you see the end of). The transitional couplings are not glued either, so I can still adjust as needed depending on what I do here.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Javiles said:


> whats the stack servicing or venting ??


Hmmm. . .servicing? The toilet, shower drain, and lav drain. The lavs and shower are vented in previous parts of the drain(s) as you can see in some of the the previous posts.

I'm not sure if that's what you are asking. . .


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

No code does not allow using a sanitary tee in the horizontal flat position.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> No code does not allow using a sanitary tee in the horizontal flat position.


Ok. Thanks.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Well, as I suspected and mentioned previously, there's no way ANY wye is going to work coming off the stack. The "straight" portion of the wye is too long. There is simply not enough room between the stack and the joist to allow me to tie into the shower drain...the angle is not sharp enough.

So, it's either get that back nipple out or leave as is. It's (not) surprisingly difficult to find a non plumber who has a 3 foot pipe wrench! I thought I could rent one from HD, but no luck. I bought an 18 inch (the largest I could find) so I'll give it a whirl tomorrow. Hopefully the heat and/or lube will do the trick.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Well, I got my hands on a large pipe wrench. Unfortunately, that nipple is not going to come out. The last thing I want to do is to have to replace the stack. . .so it looks like I'm going to leave it as is and just use the 1.5 x 1.25 transition coupling. It's maybe not the most desirable way. . .but I'm not too worried about it. Hopefully a snake will easily handle any potential clogs in the future. 

I appreciate all of the advice. Thank you. :thumbsup:

I'm sure I will be back with an update or two. . .and maybe more questions as I proceed (finally. . .)!


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Are you under IPC? International plumbing code?


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I think I remember seeing that my county enforces the 2009 IPC.

Why....would this violate code?


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

TALDE said:


> I think I remember seeing that my county enforces the 2009 IPC.
> 
> Why....would this violate code?


After a quick search, yes. It looks like 2012 IPC.

http://regulations.delaware.gov/Adm...th/Health Systems Protection (HSP)/4455.shtml


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Alan said:


> Primer is not required here for sanitary drainage. We use it anyway, but don't need it.



PVC install instructions require a PVC primer and Glue. The PVC cleaner is a choice. Primer is also made in a clear base so you do not have that purple stain all over the pipe. And the ipc does require a PVC primer.

*  705.14 PVC plastic. *Joints between PVC plastic pipe or fittings shall comply with Sections 705.14.1 through 705.14.3.
*705.14.1 Mechanical joints. *Mechanical joints on drainage pipe shall be made with an elastomeric seal conforming to ASTM C 1173, ASTM D 3212 or CAN/CSA B602. Mechanical joints shall not be installed in above-ground systems, unless otherwise approved. Joints shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
*705.14.2 Solvent cementing. *Joint surfaces shall be clean and free from moisture. A primer that conforms to ASTM F 656 shall be applied. Solvent cement conforming to ASTM D 2564, CSA B 137.3, CSA B 181.2 or CSA B 182.1 shall be applied to all joint surfaces. The joint shall be made while the cement is wet and shall be in accordance with ASTM D 2855. Solvent-cement joints shall be permitted above or below ground.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Ghostmaker said:


> PVC install instructions require a PVC primer and Glue. The PVC cleaner is a choice. Primer is also made in a clear base so you do not have that purple stain all over the pipe. And the ipc does require a PVC primer.
> 
> *  705.14 PVC plastic. *Joints between PVC plastic pipe or fittings shall comply with Sections 705.14.1 through 705.14.3.
> *705.14.1 Mechanical joints. *Mechanical joints on drainage pipe shall be made with an elastomeric seal conforming to ASTM C 1173, ASTM D 3212 or CAN/CSA B602. Mechanical joints shall not be installed in above-ground systems, unless otherwise approved. Joints shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
> *705.14.2 Solvent cementing. *Joint surfaces shall be clean and free from moisture. A primer that conforms to ASTM F 656 shall be applied. Solvent cement conforming to ASTM D 2564, CSA B 137.3, CSA B 181.2 or CSA B 182.1 shall be applied to all joint surfaces. The joint shall be made while the cement is wet and shall be in accordance with ASTM D 2855. Solvent-cement joints shall be permitted above or below ground.



I see your code reference and I raise you one 




2008 Oregon Plumbing Specialty Code (based on UPC) 316.1.6 said:


> Solvent Cement Plastic Pipe Joints.
> 
> Plastic pipe and fittings designed to be joined by solvent cementing shall comply with appropriate standards.
> 
> ...


I don't make the rules, I just go by 'em.  :thumbup:


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

I appreciate the passion in the recent exchange.... But are hairs being split here??

If the debate at this point is whether or not to use primer (with glue) on the existing nipple, and whether or not it is clear or purple, does it matter? Is there any disadvantage to using a primer (and glue) where the rubber transition coupling connects to the galvanized nipple? 

The plan was purple primer, glue, don't look back.. .


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

*PVC pipe and fittings shall be cleaned and joined with primers and solvent cements

EXCEPTION : PVC/DWV piping may be joined without the use of a primer.

*Looks like an idiot wrote this....
Oh well. Glad I'm under IPC

Were talking about the pvc joints themselves. not the transitional couplings.

The UPC itself had the primer

2.1.2 Fittings. 
PVC fitting markings shall be in
accordance with ASTM D2665 or ASTM
D3311. [UPC 301.1.2]
2.1.3 solvent Cement. 
Solvent cement label mark-
ings shall be in accordance with ASTM D2564.
2.1.3.1
Solvent cements shall not be purple in color.
2.1.4 Primers. 
Primer container markings shall be
in accordance with F 656.
2.1.4.1
Primer shall be purple

In the end the homeowner loses I know from experience an unprimed joint is easy as hell to remove from a hub of a pipe. Not to mention the manufactures are now off the hook because there installation guidelines are not followed.


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## TALDE (May 4, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> Were talking about the pvc joints themselves. not the transitional couplings.


Well. . .all of the PVC joints do and will have purple primer and glue.

I believe it was Alan who mentioned using the same where the transition coupling connects to the nipple. So that was my plan. Purple primer + glue.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Ghostmaker said:


> *PVC pipe and fittings shall be cleaned and joined with primers and solvent cements
> 
> EXCEPTION : PVC/DWV piping may be joined without the use of a primer.
> 
> ...


Again, we do use it anyway, but just as an example :

I was just at a house where cpvc pipe was glued together without primer and using regular pvc glue. The pipe was coming through an area vent and attached underneath a deck which was settling. The joint at the area vent did not come apart, instead, the pipe got pinched and shattered. The glue joint remained intact even under pressure and stress. 

Again, not that i'd ever install any lines without primer, but if the DWV lines are installed and supported according to code without stress against them, it would be unlikely for a problem to occur. 

I vote to use primer, but if you've already got something installed without it, it's properly supported and not stressed, I wouldn't exactly tell you that you need to rip it out and start over either. 


:jester:


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