# HELP! Carrier Weathermaker Infinity Not Working!



## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

Hi All:

This is my first post to this forum, and I'm hoping you can help me in a pinch!

For a while now, we've kept the registers on the first floor of our house (about 1,000 square feet on the first floor) closed both during the summer and winter because the upstairs is always hotter in the summer and cooler in the winter. I suppose there are any number of reasons for this, but let's get to the next point.

A few weeks ago, my parents left for vacation. After they left, I closed a few (but not all) of the registers on the second floor as well. Ultimately, I think two were open upstairs and the main one downstairs was still open (the main one downstairs cannot be closed. I did this because I figured that I wasn't going to be using all the rooms upstairs, so I wanted to force more of the hot air this (Indianapolis) winter into my bedroom while the parents were on vacation.

Well, after about a week of this, I woke up this past Saturday morning and noticed the house seemed cold. I checked the thermostat, and indeed it read about 4 degrees cooler than it should be. The thermostat also said it needed the batteries replaced. So I replaced them.

A few hours later, the temperature actually dropped another degree! So I started the troubleshooting process... I opened the panel to the furnace, and followed the directions of turning the furnace off and then on again.

I turned the thermostat off. I turned the power off to the furnace. I turned the gas off to the furnace. I waited a few minutes as instructed. I turned the gas back on. I replaced the panel. I turned the power back on. Then I turned the thermostat back on.

After doing this, the ECM Motor (for the inducer I believe) started purring, and then... nothing. About 30 seconds into the power-up, the ECM Motor stops. I followed the turn-off/turn-on procedure a few more times until I realized that the furnace was giving me error codes. I was given error codes "44" and "41". These codes suggested I check the filter (which was dirty but seemed mostly unclogged), and to (ding, ding, ding!) check the registers.

I went around the house and opened all the registers on all the floors. I tried the turn-off/turn-on procedure again. This time, I got a little more of a "response." That is, this time the burner at least kicked on. I thought I was home free!  

But, the burner switched off and the ECM Motor stopped again. I tried a few more times, but ECM Motor stops about 30 seconds into the procedure, and sometimes the burner kicks on and sometimes (mostly) the burner doesn't kick on.  

So, I finally bit the bullet and called a HVAC technician. After paying $89, he tells me that the blower is done. To his credit, he answered all of my questions. But when someone tells me the most expensive part needs to be replaced, I have to be a bit skeptical.

But he was convinced... he used some device he had and connected it directly to the blower motor. He tells me it had some sort of computer in it, and that the blower should have kicked on within about 15 seconds. The device was drawing the correct voltage, and the computer inside the device is supposed to be "good". So when it didn't get the job done, he diagnosed it as a bad blower/blower module.

The HVAC company will send out another technician for a second opinion on Monday. But, I'm in a bind. My parents won't be back until mid-January, and I'm facing a (potentially) $1100 repair. I've been lucky with the weather (highs in the 50s), so the temperature inside is about 60. But the temperatures will dip into the highs around 30 all week. I can handle the cold with a space heater, but the pipes and other stuff in the house may not. I need a solution, and I'm wondering if I need to find a way to pony-up $1100 for a repair.

The furnace is a Carrier Weathermaker Infinity, Model number 58MVP080-12114, Serial number 3997A02547. It is about 10 years old. Did I damage the blower by closing up some of the registers? I can't see how closing the registers I closed did this mainly because not all the registers were closed and the "closed" registers were by no means "airtight".

I check the fuse... it looked okay. The wires don't seem burnt. The burner kicked on occassionally, so the unit is getting gas. The ECM motor starts, so the unit is getting power.

Am I missing something simple? I hope to find a low-cost solution before dealing with the need to replace the blower. And if the blower needs to be replaced, maybe I can get a cheaper unit than the one the HVAC company will try to sell to me. But even if I buy it elsewhere, I'll still need the HVAC company to install it properly.

Assuming I can come up with the $1100, should I fix it, or have prices on furnaces come down to the point where I may want to replace it with an equivalent system?

Any and all of your feedback would be welcome! And thanks in advance for your help!!


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## UBoiler (Nov 7, 2007)

Check Apex 4 prices. They have good web site. Good luck


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

Thanks! I'll do that.

Any other "procedural" suggestions that I might try before buying a new blower? I don't know how to check voltages, amps, etc. But the HVAC tech that is being sent on Monday can... I can "kindly suggest" he check on the things that you folks can think of besides the blower that may be the culprit.

Things like wire harnesses, fuses, switches, debris, condensation, etc. Anything that helps me not having to dole out $1100 for a new blower (I hope that includes installation!).


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

*Link to Apex Website*

Can you give me a link to Apex? There seem to be many Apex results on Google...


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## mrkool (Dec 3, 2007)

"Did I damage the blower by closing up some of the registers?"
"Am I missing something simple?"

Maybe, in combination with the age was probably what did it.
ECM motors are regular electric motors with *Variable Speed Controllers*
attached to the end of a regular motor.

Some can be removed and 110 volts run to the motor, then it acts like a
regular motor, but if you're not sure/able to remove the blower for some reason, then this information won't help you much.

Of course if it were me, that's what I'd do, and order a controller off the internet and replace it myself, but that's just me.

If a ECM motor costs $1100, then a new furnace will be $3000 or more
and controllers are a couple hundred bucks, major choices here.

Good luck.


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback... but I'm not sure if I understand your feedback.

You talk about a ECM motor that I can remove. But you seem to be referring to some sort of motor in the blower. The only ECM motor I see is connected to an inducer that vents exhaust. Is this the one I'm supposed to bypass in order to get the blower to work? Or am I supposed to bypass the ECM in the blower?

I can get to the ECM on the inducer, but I can't easily get to the motor in the blower.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Max I think you should disregard the last post lets start with the proper sequence of events when the thermostat calls for heat. I am going to assume this is a furnace with a hot surface igniter instead of standing pilot light. I am also going to assume you have an integrated control module. So to begin with follow this chain of events. checking each component for sign it isn't working correctly. If the hot surface igniter is glowing red but only intermittantly do you get a flame before shut down clean or replace the flame sensor, use emery cloth lightly to clean the sensor probe.

1.)The thermostat calls for heat
2.)Draft inducer motor starts up,
Pressure switch attached to the draft motor by a small tube will sense the negative pressure created by the draft inducer. The draft inducer motor runs for 30 to 60 seconds.
3.)Flame sensor senses heat from the hot surface igniter and the control module allows gas to flow to burners
4.)Gas burner is ignited by the hot surface igniter or the intermittent pilot. the process is the same regardless of ignition type with Ip it just lights the pilot then a flame sensing rod signals the control module for release of gas .

This is all coordinated by control module. It is possible it is bad but it isn't a 1000 buck repair.

If any of these things are not happening then it is a good chance you have one of the components in the above, specifically the hot surface igniter or flame sensor, that is in need of replacement or cleaning. You can clean the hot surface igniter but if it isn't getting red hot it is either bad or the control module is not closing the circuit to the igniter. The furnace will shut down if this process is interrupted by a faulty component.

No.... you didn't harm the furnace by having registers closed.

I also doubt seriously that you have a bad blower motor. The ignition process hasn't completed long enough for the blower motor to engage.


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## HvacWiz (Nov 24, 2006)

*On your circuit board you can flip dip switch #4 on, this is the emergency heat position, your furnace will run in high heat if there are no other malfutions going on in your furnace, such as a motor, but after reading your post code 41 does stand for blower out of valid speed range, we carrier techs have the little module that your furnace man used to see what going on with your furnace power wise. your icm motor comes in two parts the motor itself and the motor module. usaully only the module needs replaced which is half the cost of the whole assembly.*


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

*Keep the Good Posts Coming!*

The temperature has dropped significantly in the house overnight. That's not surprising... the highs over the weekend were into the 50s. The highs are projected into the 30s this week. I'm shivering as I write this, even though I'm sitting next to a space heater!
 

Stubbie, let's start with your post. I do have the thermostat calling for heat (please give me heat!). Then I do notice the inducer (the clearly visible ECM Motor) calling for a draft (or so I believe that is what it is doing). It spins for about 15-20 seconds before pooping out.

Sometimes I get a flame going in the igniter (once or twice), but I usually haven't in the many times I've tried to cycle the furnace since Saturday morning (over 15 times). We've had to change the igniter in the recent past (less than two years old and that component is still under warranty).

Having said that, I know the tech connected some sort of "module" directly to the blower. The module was supposed to have some sort of computer that, when connected to the blower with the proper voltage, was suppose to instruct the blower to come on no matter what else was going on. It was drawing the correct voltage (24V), but we got no action.

In his notes to his company, who is supposed to send another tech today for a second opinion, he stated that he believes the blower module is bad. I'm just not sure if I have confidence in a guy that himself says he's "not sure" what's going on and then tells me it may cost $1150 to repair.
:furious: 

I'm wondering if the fact that the furnace had already faulted before the tech used his "magic box" has anything to do with the fact that it didn't do its magic. That is, after the machine was reading codes "41" and "44" together, the tech applied 24V to his module and connected it to the blower. He tells me that this is supposed to bypass the fault and force the blower to come on, but it didn't. When it didn't, he suggested that the blower module was bad, but maybe his "technique" was bad?

Like I said, keep the suggestions coming! I'll ask the tech about dip switch #4, the emergency heat position. If the motor runs, then we know it wasn't the motor and maybe its the igniter again. Thanks, HvacWiz.


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## Mike Swearingen (Mar 15, 2005)

We have a 1998 Carrier 4-ton hi-efficiency heatpump. We have had *blower motor control* *module* issues since Day One. We have to replace it every year or two. It happens so often (design flaw supposedly), that I keep a spare on hand (about $200) and have learned to change it myself. On my unit, it's easy. (That's good, because I DIY a lot to things, but HVAC isn't one of them.)
I just turn off the power, remove the side panel access to the blower motor and module, unscrew a few screws holding in the blower fan housing and motor and module, pull it out, remove the old and bolt on the new module, do the plug-in wiring to the new module, and reinstall it.
I cannot see how replacing the module AND the motor could possibly cost $1150?!?! That's a pure rip. It should cost much less than half of that for both, IMHO. I bet that you don't even need anything but that plug-in module.
Mike


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

Thanks, Mike. I'll keep that in mind.

Any thoughts on why the tech's little thingamabob (module) didn't work to kick the motor on? If my module is bad, wouldn't the tech's module, with the 24V, kick on the motor?

So maybe the motor is bad? Or maybe the motor and module both? Where can I get such spare parts in Indianapolis?

Thanks... keep the feedback coming... it is only getting colder in the house... I'm so glad I kept the space heater!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Any thoughts on why the tech's little thingamabob (module) didn't work to kick the motor on? If my module is bad, wouldn't the tech's module, with the 24V, kick on the motor?


Well you would think so.....Hvac wiz seems to be more familiar with this than I am and says you can run on emergency heat at dip switch 4. I'm not familiar with this function.

Also sounds like you have an igniter that lights your pilot then flame rod tells module to allow gas to flow. Sounds like your not getting that far into the ignition cycle. Can you tell if your getting spark at the igniter? 

Answer this for me when you cycle this furnace will the inducer motor run for awhile before shutting down?

And your saying the tech can't get it to run at all with his bypass module?

That just isn't making sense to me.

The inducer motors I'm familiar with have a tube that runs to a pressure switch is that tube clogged or cracked?

All vent pipes are clear?

Also you said you fooled with the anticipator did you set it back where it was originally, cause you probably should.


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

You asked:

Also sounds like you have an igniter that lights your pilot then flame rod tells module to allow gas to flow. Sounds like your not getting that far into the ignition cycle. Can you tell if your getting spark at the igniter?

I answer: I do not know. I know the igniter has "tried to do something" a few of the 15 times I tried to cycle the unit, but the whole furnace powers down before the furnace starts to "roar."

You asked:

Answer this for me when you cycle this furnace will the inducer motor run for awhile before shutting down?

I answer:

Yes, the inducer motor (at least I believe it is the inducer motor), will run for about 15 seconds before the unit shuts down and gives me error codes "41" and "44". Sometimes the igniter "tries to do its thing" but usually it just powers down.

You asked:

And your saying the tech can't get it to run at all with his bypass module?

I answer:

The tech can't seem to get the blower working using his bypass module.

You said:

That just isn't making sense to me.

I answer:

I'm not surprised... I'm not well-versed in HVAC technology. Did any of my responses above make sense?

You asked:

The inducer motors I'm familiar with have a tube that runs to a pressure switch is that tube clogged or cracked?

I answer:

I again fall back on my lack of HVAC knowledge... I don't know what you mean, and I'm at work right now so I can poke around to find what you mean.

You asked:

All vent pipes are clear?

I answer:

I believe so.

You asked:

Also you said you fooled with the anticipator did you set it back where it was originally, cause you probably should.

I answer:

I'm not sure what an anticipator is, but I make it a point to "reset" everything I changed during each cycle.

If that doesn't help, please let me know and I'll try again if you prompt me about what doesn't make sense.

Thanks to all for the ongoing help... I'm learning more about HVAC now than I ever have... it's too bad it's likely to going cost me big bucks in the process.


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi MaxPierre

I am not going to scold you too much, but the failure of your furnace is do to your frugleness. This piece of equipment is designed to deliver a know needed CFM at a given static duct pressure. You have the best furnace on the market that was doing what it was told by the installing company to do. By shutting the registers off you literally threw a monkey wrench into the works. The more registers you shut off the higher speed the blower tried to turn to deliver the proper CFM. This drove the static pressure and amperage up on the motor and contoller. If you are having issues with comfort here is a tip that I give everyone with this style furnace. The blower on this furnace is designed for continuous duty. "OPEN EVERY REGISTER WIDE OPEN!", turn the blower on continuous at your thermostat. Make sure to use a good grade filter and change on monthly basis. You have learned your lesson on what not to do, try my suggestion and see if this helps. All it will cost you to run the blower continuous is about $50.00 dollars a year. If you want to know why, well heres the skinny. The motor your furnace uses is a 3 phase D/C motor, the module on the back of the motor that is going to have to be replaced is a A/C pulse modulator. Yes it feeds A/C voltage to a D/C motor, rather it pulses A/C into the motor. The rest of the operation would take me too long to type, but the jest of it is, don't be frugle when you have an extremly efficient furnace as this is. This furnace operates for mere pennies on the dollar. Contact me if the blower running all the time doesn't suffice and I will give you the next option.

Good luck
Rusty


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

Thanks... you're probably right that my frugality got me! The HVAC tech that came by thinks the problem may be the control board having gone bad as a result. It'll be a $700 repair including labor!

But it wasn't really that I'm being cheap (at least I don't think it was). See, the temperature difference between the first and second floor was very noticeable... so we closed vents downstairs to force air upstairs and have done so for years. Once the folks left for vacation, I closed more vents to push more warm into areas I would occupy because it is several degrees colder upstairs than downstairs.

Oh well, lesson learned. And if it isn't only the control board, the tech tells me that they'd not charge me if I wanted to buy another furnace. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the control board is the only problem.

Thanks for the great feedback from all of you... soon I'll have warmth again!


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## HvacWiz (Nov 24, 2006)

*Thought crossed my mind of a carrier furnace that i worked on a couple of years ago that was doing the same thing as you describe, where the inducer motor would run for 15-20 sec the shut down, as it turned out the secondary heat exchanger was plugged. The motor would shut down and give a "out of valid speed range fault" once the secondary was changed every thing was fine. Not saying this is your problem but it sounds awful familure. Heat [email protected] seconday heat ex are under warranty form carrier labor usally is not, which is still alot cheaper than 1100$ *


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Someone will have to explain to me why anyone would actually design a furnace that needed all the registers open in order to operate. That IMO is insane. Are we saying that if I shut off all the 2nd floor registers, not only is my furnace going to be damaged but it won't work either??
Now I'm not a HVAC professional by a long shot but that right there would be the end of my search for a carrier furnace.
I had a carrier weather maker 8000 installed along with a carrier central air in 1995. In the first two years I had constant issues with it... 2 control boards a blower motor whine to name a few (under warranty if that helps) .... in five years the problems grew and crept into my central air unit. But just to suffice and not go into the bloody details I now have an entire new system...this after being told in 2001 I had a 1000 dollar labor bill and still a broken carrier central air condensing unit. It was "my call" I remember the tech saying... do I want them to install a new condensing unit or keep trying to fix it. This being a 6 year old system. The carrier reps wouldn't give me the time of day. I opted for the new condensing unit. In two years it developed a leak and the compressor wouldnt start after they fixed that. I got one of those it's your call answers again from the same company I had fix it the last time which was who I purchased the system from. So I said.. yep.. it is my call. And sent them on their way. I removed the entire system (including the furnace) loaded it on my truck and placed it in their parking lot by the receiving door for them to do what they wanted with it. I recieved a bill for the labor turned that over to a lawyer I went out and retained (which cost me 500 bucks) and 3,000 if it went to claims court. Didn't care I was throughly pissed at that point. Never heard another word from them. Oh and by the way you should have seen the furnace installation what a debacle of workmanship. They needed a 4 inch gas line nipple so they could position my furnace correctly....nope they built this goofy sheetmetal plenum offset instead, wouldn't even consider changing it when asked to. My new system has been flawless since installed by a one man company, the installation was quite frankly some of the best workmanship I have ever seen.
Now having said all that I think Carrier most likely makes a fine furnace and a/c system and I'm not really all that upset with the company. though it sure would have been nice to have it least had my phone calls returned. I notice now there is no way for the homeowner to contact the company. Kinda like the airlines. I do believe my problems were poor quality parts and dealer installation issues, but the service sucked and was questionable at best. I will never understand this "we'll you need a whole new furnace" crap cause your system is old..how old is old...jeez and I said I would make this short....... My neighbor has a ruud the condensing fan went out... the tech she called in wanted 500 dollars to replace it...that after trying to get the gal to buy a new system after telling her it wasn't worth fixing. I think he said 3500 hundred for furnace and air. She sent him on his way after paying the 100 bucks for showing up. I replaced the motor for 60 bucks my cost at johnstone and reused the old fan blade. which the tech told me he wouldn't do.... he wanted a 100 bucks for a new one. Guess he didn't have a fan blade puller on his truck. that was 2002 and that system is still working just fine. So my point in all this is not to hammer carrier... but what happened to the professionals... guys... that could actually fix something??? And why all the bogus crap from these dealers and techs...? and workmanship in their installations? This is becoming a huge problem in several trades IMHO.


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## mrkool (Dec 3, 2007)

*Hey Stubbie...*

*"why anyone would actually design a furnace that needed all the registers open in order to operate"*

Well, I don't believe any furnace is designed it that way, of course it's
common sense to leave most grilles open. I doubt that MaxPierre had
that many closed, the air noise will get your attention pretty soon.
Especially with an ECM motor, I know I have a 5 ton Amana split
in my house and even with all 20 grilles open, I still get/feel/hear
plenty of air coming out all grilles, his problem is b ad duct design
from the start.:thumbdown:

Now, since I am a HVAC contractor/servicer/installer for almost 40 years
now, 30 of that with my own business and doing it by myself 80% of the time and having installed every brand that made it to tenn and some I had
to order from up north, I use to sell/install Heil/Tempstar/Comfortmaker,
now I sell/install Amana/Goodman, my nephew handles Carrier/Bryant, 
one brother installs Am Standard/Trane, the others Lennoxand York, 
so I believe I have most of them covered.

I still have several Whirlpool systems installed in 1980 still running today.
I removed a 40 year old noname unit that was working with the bottom rusted out, replaced it with a Coleman Heat Pump, the fella said it didn't
cool near as well as his old unit, what could I say, "You want me to put it back?"

But I have to say, of all the different systems I've installed/serviced
I hated the spine fin coils of Carrier/Bryant and Trane, maybe better
SEER, but no other company did that, thank goodness.

Now days, I replace more Carrier/Bryant than any other brand out there,
one reason, in their package units, they went to the old York/Luxaire over/under design that just plain sucks and although now of them have 
very good metal for their venter/blower wheels, Carrier/Bryant use
some kind of Chinese pot metal that barely lasts till the warranty runs out,
I can also say the same for the heat exchangers, almost as bad as
Heil/Tempstar crappy tubular ht exchangers.

Now back to your post:
*So my point in all this is not to hammer carrier...* (well I just did)
*but what happened to the professionals... guys... that could actually fix something??? And why all the bogus crap from these dealers and techs...? and workmanship in their installations? This is becoming a huge problem in several trades IMHO.*

I know exactly what you talking about, I see loads of it when I get my trucks or cars worked on, now I'm not saying all of my installs/servicing has been top notch, far from it, but I doubt I'd still have several hundred customers calling me year after year for service. But my best guess is
it all comes down to the money, around here, a new company will put in 
a simple 1/2 day 2 ton change-out for $15,000, others are between $4000 and $10,000, me and a helper $3500 and probably do a better job, personally, I hate air leaks, anywhere in the system, just a pet peeve, I use lots of silicone a foil tape, sometime I find a few rolls left by the last company.

Another major problem, just verified by my ACHR-NEWS mag, for every 3
HVAC servicemen retiring, 1 in entering the field, that means the price is going to go up a lot more, especially when you can't buy any R-22, and it's going up once a month around here.

Don't matter anyway, we're all going to be speaking either Chinese or Spanish one day, so get used to it.

M R Kool


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

*Hey Mr Kool*

Thats cool MrKool

I had to laugh.... I replaced a 1980 whirlpool with that junk carrier...... The whirlpool was installed in a friends home...I gave the whole system to him...it is still running today.

Any way you sure seem to have been around the block and I apologize for the comment about disregarding your post earlier...I actually misread it. I'm choking a bit on that mistake.....:thumbsup:

When your a large hvac dealer and repair company no doubt it is a bit of a different ball game time is money as they say. A small family business has to a degree focus more on the quality because that has to be what keeps people calling otherwise you would not be able to compete. I don't like it but that seems to be life in this century.... thing is it isn't always the cheapest price by these larger companies it seems to be the most expensive product price and a poor install then they expect you to kiss them when they leave.
I've worked on a lot of different systems over the years for friends and family and I win some and I lose some. Probably takes me twice as long to figure the problem out as a HVAC tech but it is better than dealing with someone showing up at my door wanting a 100 bucks to grace my driveway before he touches anything.... then having to listen to why I need a whole new system if it becomes a little difficult to diagnose. I swear it's like if they can't fix it in 30 minutes.... try to sell them a new system and get on to the next job. It is so nice to see a tech that will stick with you till the problem is resolved. Anyway I enjoyed your last post. I'm not a carrier fan anymore and I can safely say I'll never own or recommend one. And if I had one I darn sure wouldn't put the blower on all the time. That escapes me...no offense Carrierman but I don't know anyone that would be happy with that whether there is merit to it or not. Surely this isn't a factory recommendation. 

Yes I agree about speaking spanish and chinese, but we will be paying 4$ a gallon for gas first.....:furious:


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

*Resolution*

Because all of you have been very helpful to me, I wanted to drop in to let you know the problem I was having has been resolved to my satisfaction, short of having a problem to deal with at all.

A tech came out last night for the second opinion I needed, and he diagnosed a bad control board. That wasn't a surprise given all the comments here. I wasn't too pleased with the cost of the repair ($700, including labor), but I didn't have the part, the tools, the time, or, more importantly, the heat in my home! So we teed up the service call for today.

The tech last night also made a point to let me know that replacing the control board may also reveal other problems. That is, the bad control board disallowed any further diagnoses until it can be replaced. Namely, the blower motor draws power from the board (I'm told), and so it may have been bad too.

That seems like a design flaw to me. That is, a $5000 product was designed to run everything from one point (the control board) in a way that disallows bypassing it or putting the machine into some "diagnostic" mode to diagnose other problems without spending big money to replace something first?

Anyway, I digress... the tech from last night and I agreed that spending $700 just to diagnose other problems seemed pricey. So he suggested replacing the control board first, hoping it alone was the problem. If not, he suggested stopping work to allow me to discuss options with my parents. After all, it was a 10-year-old unit with problems within some seemingly significant subsystems. Maybe replacing the unit was the way to go?

If we decided to replace the unit, he would zero out the $700 repair and we'd install a new one. Why wouldn't he suggest that? He'd be in line for $5000 versus $700.

So a different tech comes by today, running late of course. I had to have a relative let him in while I drove home from work. He had the needed control board, and swapped it out quickly from what I can tell. Lo and behold, the tech began diagnosing other problems in the furnace. Though I'm not happy about that, I was angry about what happened next.

Instead of checking with me like he was asked to by me yesterday, he went ahead and slapped a motor on the blower, a $700 service, without my explicit permission. He was wrapping all of this up by the time I pulled into the driveway. I expected to have a discussion about options. Instead, I faced a $1400 bill instead of being able to make a decision.

I paid the man and sent him on his way, but I was not done with the matter in the least. I called the service manager immediately. After about 30 minutes, we agreed that there was a breakdown in communications somewhere along the line on their end, and as a result, he knocked the cost of the blower motor and service off the final price, a $700 savings to me.

So, as it stands, the temps are rising in the house (there's a big difference between 40 and 60 degrees indoors, trust me!). I have a new blower motor and control board. And I also have a 2-year warranty on both parts. All for $700.

Thanks again for all of your help. If this post stays posted, maybe somebody else can learn from my experiences. I sure hope it doesn't cost them as much time, money, and days of 45 degree temps when stepping out of the shower!


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## #CARRIERMAN (Oct 18, 2006)

Thank MaxPierre

I was just reading through some of the responses. I found some of them quite humorus. This is going to help answer some of all the questions. On high end equipment it is the installing companys responsibility to educate the homeowner to the purchase, it is also their responsibility to install it correctly. To answer stubbies as to why they would design this piece of equipment like this is comfort. He talked about his old furnace, it probably did an ok job for what it was. But that furnace did not even come close to the ability of the MVP or MVB Carrier. The old way of doing things are going by the wayside and the newer equipment by ALL manufacturers are going to a CFM driven system. And for mrkool, I think you hit the nail on the head about where have all the good techs gone. I personally am a NATE certified technician, I know you know what that means in the industry. The company I worked for were more interested in linning their pockets and paying me peanuts with crap benifits. I went to work as a Conductor for the Union Pacific railroad. I miss my old job but in 10 months I have made almost $5000.00 dollars more than I did all year at my old job even with the year end bonus. I don't have to kill myself to make some peanuts to throw in front of my dissapointed family. I would have loved to stay in my old profession as I was a true professional. But this seams to be a universal sentiment across the HVAC industry. So until someone is willing to offer this professional tech at least something comparable to what I am now accustomed, I am staying where I am at and I will let my NATE certification laps. Max Pierre I am glad that you got your furnace going, but in all honesty all your furnace needed was a controller on the back of the motor. I am under the impression you just got hosed, but I did not get to see the furnace.

Good luck
Rusty


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Max Pierre

I'm also glad you got the furnace going and I sure hope you didn't get hosed.
Sounds like you got a little relief with the return of 700 bucks of your repair bill. I gotta wonder about putting the new motor on when the old one was apparently working when they put the new control board in....does that make any sense? In my weather maker 8000 the first warranty repair was a control board and I had almost identical symptoms as you reported on your infinity. Which is why I responded to your post (that repair was I was told at the time would be about 300 bucks). Generally I don't post in the HVAC forum because their are pro's in that industry that respond here. Not much I can do to add to anything those guys post as advice. 
I have to wonder though if these new technology furnaces are so dependent on cfm & proper duct working being installed how on earth do they install them as replacements for old systems and old duct work? 
Now in response to Carrierman I didn't mean to make humorous posts but I saw a hose job in the making, though I'm not an HVAC tech, I'm a skilled tradesman retired and I've been round the block just a little bit. If you want my honest opinion the auto repair industry is the worst hoser out there. Doesn't make it right though to take advantage of people who you have cornered into a decision about something they have no knowledge. Boils down to that thing called honesty. I have no gripes about charging someone so you can stay in business and to fix the car or whatever properly but sticking a 700 dollar replacement motor onto a repair that was fixed with the control board?? That wasn't a communication problem btw....:no:
Anyway I hope Union Pacific treats you well I do think you made an excellent career decision. I have two family members and a good friends son who have graduated from the JCCC railroad engineer & conductors school in Overland Park, Kansas. My father in law retired after 40 years with UP.

Stubbie


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## MaxPierre (Dec 3, 2007)

I guess I didn't clearly explain what happened, so I'll try again. On the second opinion service call, the tech tells me that he's pretty certain that the control board was bad (things besides the blower weren't working properly, like the draft inducer and the igniter, things mysteriously "powered" up when wires were jiggled, etc.). He also made a point of telling me that the blower module (apparently not the blower motor itself) may also be bad, but that could not be diagnosed until the control board was replaced.

So, the next day before I can get home, the third tech claimed to have diagnosed the bad blower module (which I was not able to see with my own eyes) and had already installed both the control board and the blower module. He was supposed to have waited for me to decide how to proceed before installing the blower module. Instead, he was presenting me with a $1400 bill, twice the amount I agreed to the day before.

The point of asking me (besides the obvious need to ask permission before charging a customer double than what he expected) was to decide (with my parents, who were traveling, because it is their home and ultimately their expense and their decision) if a new furnace was the better option. It was, after all, 10 years old, already working on its second igniter, needing a new control board, and possibly needing other costly repairs. A new system with a 7-10 year "worry-free" warranty might not be too bad, particularly for a retiree (my dad) and a soon to be retiree (my mom).

But the tech decided for me, and that's a big no-no in my book. The service manager agreed, and knocked the price of the blower module and service off the bill. The original may well have been bad and we (my parents and I) may well have decided to repair it instead of replacing the whole unit. But the decision was NOT his to make, and that was the error.

The error may not have been his, however, because the message may not have been transmitted correctly from the second tech to dispatch, dispatch to the third tech, etc. But an error was made on their end, and thus I'm not on the hook for the second unapproved repair. I just have to make sure the credit card company knows this as well.


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## ro9beam2002 (Jun 6, 2008)

mmmmmmmmmmm


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## ro9beam2002 (Jun 6, 2008)

mmmmmmmmm


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## geo fan (Jun 12, 2008)

*tech and companys arent getting rich*

I read these supposed pro talk about a rip first off the system has a bad varyable speed fan motor which most manufacturers will recomend replacing the motor at that point to and they are wicked expensive and went from a soft lock out to a hard one . a licecesned tech is lucky to make enough to take a vacation and retirment usualy means somebody throwing dirt on them so I am a little insulted by people like he's trying to rip you off the part is 200 . I want everybody out there to do a 1 truck exersize add up all the expensises you would reasonably expect if you had a 1 man 1 truck hvac repair comp. 1000 billed hours average a year gas tools training insurance parts salary advertising insurance call backs phone service shop utilitys truck stock and you tell me how much we have to charge per hour to make a living wage and send our kids to school answer that and ill personly walk you through a cheap repair cost you about a hundred bucks


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## pantaja (Jan 19, 2009)

I have a question can the voltage be checked to the motor module, and what would I see. I have checked and between black and white I have 120 (PL13) what should I see at PL6 - 1,2,3,4,5


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## grantandjaye (Jan 20, 2009)

*Thanks...and*

Stubie, you gave me the exact information I needed. 1,2,3,4 the exact sequence allowed me to fix the problem when I was ready to buy another furnace.
I had.
1.)The thermostat calls for heat
I had.
2.)Draft inducer motor starts up,
Pressure switch attached to the draft motor by a small tube will sense the negative pressure created by the draft inducer. The draft inducer motor runs for 30 to 60 seconds.
I didn't have
3.)Flame sensor senses heat from the hot surface igniter and the control module allows gas to flow to burners.

So I had already checked the resistance on the micro switch attached to the vacuum before and after the inducer motor start up and It worked. 
I could fire up the igniter through the diagnostic routine so I knew it worked.

You only forgot step
3a) After the pressure switch, the current is sent to the draft tube safeguard and switch. (Whammo) The sensor was dirty AND it has a manual reset on the outside identical to the limit switches just above the burners. Cleaned and reset this little devil and my error 31 was gone.

4.)Gas burner is ignited by the hot surface igniter or the intermittent pilot. the process is the same regardless of ignition type with Ip it just lights the pilot then a flame sensing rod signals the control module for release of gas .

Thanks again for the order of events, I was exhausted It made a world of difference for me.


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