# Painting Basement Ceiling - Order of Operations



## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.

Wait and do all your painting at once.


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## PaintItLikeAPro (Mar 6, 2011)

*Basement ceiling*

You should definately complete construction, before painting the ceiling. After drywall is complete, use an airless sprayer (rent $30, buy $300) to prime the walls and ceiling at the same time. The white primer coat on the ceiling may be all you need for a satisfactory finished result. Then apply your topcoat to the walls.

~ Michael Dale


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

PaintItLikeAPro said:


> You should definately complete construction, before painting the ceiling. After drywall is complete, use an airless sprayer (rent $30, buy $300) to prime the walls and ceiling at the same time. The white primer coat on the ceiling may be all you need for a satisfactory finished result. Then apply your topcoat to the walls.
> 
> ~ Michael Dale


 
not good:no:


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## PaintItLikeAPro (Mar 6, 2011)

We finish ceilings with two coats of sprayed primer all of the time. People see it and ask how we get the paint to be so uniform and even. 

Ceilings are very prone to showing streaks and imperfections. Because drywall primer is dead flat, it has no sheen that shows imperfections, lap marks, ect.

Ceilings do not get touched and handled like trim and walls do, so it is not neccesary for ceilings to have a higher quality top coat finish.

Been doing ceilings like that for years.
Unorthodox? Yep, but that's the way I paint - outside of the box.

~ Michael Dale

www.paintitlikeapro.com


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

> We finish ceilings with two coats of sprayed primer all of the time. People see it and ask how we get the paint to be so uniform and even.
> 
> Ceilings are very prone to showing streaks and imperfections. Because drywall primer is dead flat, it has no sheen that shows imperfections, lap marks, ect.
> 
> ...


While it is unorthodox, and I've never done it, I can't seem to pooh-pooh it. Over the years, I have seen primers that specify that if the primer finish is acceptable, it can stand without a top coat. He's right that ceilings don't take the abuse of walls and trim, so for ceilings appearance is the primary concern. I'm always seeking dead flats for ceilings, and currently use BM Super Spec Flat, F&H Carefree, MAB Fresh Kote, which are all wall paints, or any of the BM ceiling paints, Muresco and waterborne ceiling finish. I really don't see "unorthodox" as a reason to discount. I can imagine chalking and fading would be concerns, and chalking may make applying a traditional finish difficult at a later time, but I can't see any protective shortcomings with it, given that ceiling finishes don't do much but look good. Can anyone cite any kind of failure that could occur from using primer as a finish? Makes for an interesting discussion. I'm not going to run out tomorrow and adopt the usage, but it is a tool to put in the toolbox to have when I encounter a particularly troublesome ceiling. I would absolutely inform the customer though. But, does a flat primer, after all is said, really have that lower a light reflective value than a standard dead flat wall finish?


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

You really want to use a finish coat of paint. Primer will attract dust and even more so mildew in a basement. While some drywall primers are flat, some aren't.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

.........


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> Yes, in new construction guys always are looking to cut corners to save costs. New construction, low man wins 99% of the time. Its not entirely their fault, builders around here were paying around .70/per foot for painting. Most guys can't even operate at that cost.


.70 a square foot is a joke, but unfortunately you are right. The same thing here low man usually wins. Any professional painter, performing a new construction project the right way needs to get at a minimum double that .70 sq foot and even that's low for a company to make any profit. I would not have my name attached to any project where I was only using primer on a ceiling. Primer and paint each have their own purpose and in my opinion every ceiling should be top coated with paint after primining. To me just leaving a ceiling primed is unprofessiona and not the right way to go about it. .


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

..........


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

NCpaint1 said:


> You sir are correct. Unfortunately this is the Way of the world these days. Its sad when a professional says on a public forum that leaving ceilings primed is ok. I've never, ever seen a spec on any type of work stating primer is finish. He is obviously and blatantly cheating his customers.


Funny how a primers data sheet usually states that it must be top coated within so many days. You can't even warranty your work if your not performing it according to specs. I've never seen it speced anyplace, not from an architect or on a painting schedule have I seen it said to only apply primer to the ceilings. Its unfortunate that so many call themselves professional painters and take shortcuts, robbing there customers. That's why it is important to educate consumers. There are a lot of good ceiling paints and flat paints that can be applied to a ceiling, leaving a flat, uniform finish. I feel that if there finish is coming out blotchy or un even its because of inferior products or un experienced application.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

> I really don't see "unorthodox" as a reason to discount. I can imagine chalking and fading would be concerns, and chalking may make applying a traditional finish difficult at a later time, but I can't see any protective shortcomings with it, given that ceiling finishes don't do much but look good. Can anyone cite any kind of failure that could occur from using primer as a finish?


We've talked about new construction, cutting corners, and what spec sheets for products and jobs call for, but no one, except for Matt, has addressed my question. Sorry Matt, I can't consider your objections troublesome, respectfully, all finishes will collect dust and mildew in the right environ. I didn't suggest cutting corners, I said in my post about telling the customer. In fact, a good primer costs as much as the ceiling finishes I mentioned. I'm not being difficult or defending OP's methods. I'm asking because I've seen some ceilings over the years that take the right amount of angled sunlight to challenge any finish's uniformity. Sometimes, you're not going to defeat the sun. Flats do the same thing as all other finishes, but because they absorb light rather than reflect it, it is less noticeable. The deader the flat, the less. If indeed a primer is a deader flat than a dead flat ceiling finish, why is that not an option for those instances that I stated? As I said, it's not a way to operate regularly, but a tool to use when circumstances warrant it. You cited warranties HPNY, what kind of failure would I have to warranty against using primer as a finish?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.
> 
> Wait and do all your painting at once.


I made a perfectly good math joke and you guys are talking about primer. Where are your priorities?

*facepalm*

:laughing:


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

jsheridan said:


> We've talked about new construction, cutting corners, and what spec sheets for products and jobs call for, but no one, except for Matt, has addressed my question. Sorry Matt, I can't consider your objections troublesome, respectfully, all finishes will collect dust and mildew in the right environ. I didn't suggest cutting corners, I said in my post about telling the customer. In fact, a good primer costs as much as the ceiling finishes I mentioned. I'm not being difficult or defending OP's methods. I'm asking because I've seen some ceilings over the years that take the right amount of angled sunlight to challenge any finish's uniformity. Sometimes, you're not going to defeat the sun. Flats do the same thing as all other finishes, but because they absorb light rather than reflect it, it is less noticeable. The deader the flat, the less. If indeed a primer is a deader flat than a dead flat ceiling finish, why is that not an option for those instances that I stated? As I said, it's not a way to operate regularly, but a tool to use when circumstances warrant it. You cited warranties HPNY, what kind of failure would I have to warranty against using primer as a finish?


True, all surfaces can collect mildew, but I have seen areas that were spot primed and never finish painted and those areas typicly collect more dust and mildew and infact will fade/discolor more over time.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

housepaintingny said:


> .70 a square foot is a joke, but unfortunately you are right. The same thing here low man usually wins. Any professional painter, performing a new construction project the right way needs to get at a minimum double that .70 sq foot and even that's low for a company to make any profit. I would not have my name attached to any project where I was only using primer on a ceiling. Primer and paint each have their own purpose and in my opinion every ceiling should be top coated with paint after primining. To me just leaving a ceiling primed is unprofessiona and not the right way to go about it. .


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

you got that right


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## PaintItLikeAPro (Mar 6, 2011)

I am so ashamed. If I had of known that I was being unprofessional by using primer for a ceiling finish I would not have adopted the method back in 2001.

Back then, we researched popcorn texture finishes, and guess what - It's primer with lightweight material added in. 

The post about mildew being a problem is a good point. But if you are finishing a basement, moisture prevention should be at the top of the list before you start construction.

The primer ceiling finish method is only used on lower-end homes. Higher-end homes validate using more expensive coatings and the additional time required to make such coatings look good on a ceiling.

Do-it-yourselfers are looking for ways to be more economic, so I was offering the tip with that in mind. 

I'm not trying to tell any other professionals that they should be using the method.

I've been using primer as a ceiling finish for a decade now. If it presented a problem, I wouldn't have continued to use it. 

The average gloss level of flat paint is 10%, eggshell 25%, satin 35%, semi-gloss 45%, gloss 60% - primer is 5%. This is using a sheen meter with two coats cured for 24 hours with no buffing (which would increase the level).

To the pros: Do what works for you - what you will be proud to attach your name to.

And keep up the great work!

~ Michael Dale


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

PaintItLikeAPro said:


> Back then, we researched popcorn texture finishes, and guess what - It's primer with lightweight material added in.
> 
> 
> The primer ceiling finish method is only used on lower-end homes. Higher-end homes validate using more expensive coatings and the additional time required to make such coatings look good on a ceiling.
> ...


Exactly, there are circumstances where exceptions are useful. But these guys around here are one size fits all, which isn't real world. I work for a lot of wealthy people, a lot of comfortable people, and some who don't have a lot of money. I need a deep and varied toolbox to meet all those varied customers needs. 

I recently did a job where I used the Behr paint/primer in one. I took a little hammering for it. I used that product for one customer. Here's her story. She's a widowed grandmother raising her five and seven year old grandchildren, by herself on a fixed income. Since it's a boy/girl, the state required her to separate their sleeping space, not so fast in a two bedroom townhouse. She had to move into the small room and have the master subdivided into two bedrooms, a significant cost. The money I saved her by skipping the primer was appreciated. I notified her of the drawbacks but she said let's do it. It looks fine and she's happy. I've painted for her for years, in better times and now. You have to work with the resources you have available.
I'm sure there are numerous instances, both paint related and financial, where some tricks that ride outside the everyday norm are helpful. As long as the customer is informed and signs off on the deviation, nobody is being taken advantage of. You have to be able to meet the individual needs of your customers, not your ego. It's only a coat of paint. Hey, OP save your political slurs for the political blogs, this is a paint forum. I got your back and this is how you treat me.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Please use the MPI standards for sheen levels. http://www.paintinfo.com/mpi/approved/sheen.htm


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## koz123 (Jan 17, 2011)

Not sure if this will change your minds (back to the order of completion) on all this but I don't beilieve I explained myself well enough in my original post. I'm painting the unfinished basement ceiling. So, I'm not talking about drywall, I'm talking about floor joists, pipes, wires, etc. Still frame/drywall first?

Thanks


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Yes. :thumbsup:


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## Ole34 (Jan 31, 2011)

koz123 said:


> . I'm painting the unfinished basement ceiling. So, I'm not talking about drywall, I'm talking about floor joists, pipes, wires, etc. Still frame/drywall first?
> 
> Thanks


 

why do you want to paint the beams and pipes then drywall over them then paint the drywall ?? ...... or are you just drywalling the walls only?


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## koz123 (Jan 17, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> why do you want to paint the beams and pipes then drywall over them then paint the drywall ?? ...... or are you just drywalling the walls only?


I'm leaving the ceiling unfinished.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

koz123 said:


> I'm leaving the ceiling unfinished.


Yes, the ceiling first in that case. Rent a sprayer for sure. You'll kill yourself trying to brush and roll it, unless its really small. 

Just hang plastic in any areas where over spray/fog will be a problem...doorways, windows, furniture..etc etc. Turn your furnace off too. Not because of flammability, but due to the fact that it could pick up over spray and blow it throughout the home.

Wear a respirator. Not a dust mask, a charcoal filtered respirator.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Koz, have you thought about an industrial ceiling, I think that's the term, been awhile. Spray the whole thing flat black. I did it couple years ago in a basement set up as a workout room. Looked awesome.


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## koz123 (Jan 17, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Koz, have you thought about an industrial ceiling, I think that's the term, been awhile. Spray the whole thing flat black. I did it couple years ago in a basement set up as a workout room. Looked awesome.


That's exactly my plan!


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Nice Koz, I was thinking that if doing an industrial ceiling, it may be better to paint the ceiling *after* the walls are built and ready for paint. My reasoning is that flat black paint is very delicate and sensitive to touch and dust. If you get a lot of drywall dust that clings to the ceiling surfaces, it may be difficult to clean. It smudges and burnishes easily. If you're a competent with the sprayer, as my guy was, you shouldn't have too much overspray that it causes problems painting the walls. If that's a concern, simply mask the walls with plastic, which would be far easier and less costly than having significant areas of damage to the black from drywall compound dust. It would probably be more than a touch-up solution. Further down the road, handprints or isolated damage can be easily touched up. To clean cobwebs and dust in the future, it would be best to use a shop vac as a blower and blow the dust off, don't think that'll work with drywall dust, at least on new fresh black paint. I work with flat black a lot, trust me.
PS: if it's not to late.


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