# building permit violation



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

They can make your rip it out
Or rip out the drywall for inspection
Yes you can be cited & fined
A code violation they would probably make you hire someone to fix it
And if anything does not meet code then all of your work will come under closer scrutiny

Best bet is to go down & apply for a permit after the fact
Only your local Inspector can answer/decide what will be done


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

Come clean. Go down and talk to them.

I have to ask, and this might give everyone some insight, what were the reasons why you didn't get a permit in the first place? 

When I talk to my clients, the reasons fall into a couple of categories:

1. Unknown process. They weren't familiar with the the process, so they stayed away from it.
2. Cost. They had a preconceived notion that a permit costs thousands of dollars, or that taxes will skyrocket.
3. Bad advice. Other parties (neighbors, friends, bad contractors) gave them bad advice.
4. Horror stories. They have heard of horror stories or urban legends about mean inspectors, and they wanted to avoid that.

The advice I give always is to confront it head on. Call the building department, ask them what a good time is to come down and ask some questions, and go have a conversation at the desk. Bring a sketch of what you want to do. Ask them if you can see your property's jacket so you can see its history. They really are there to help you.


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

Here non structural framing does not require a permit. I would assume your framing was non structural in your basement. Now electric and plumbing is another story.....

Why not do the fireplace yourself?

I called the inspector here, they were pretty straight forward, and actually nice and helpful. They understand why people avoid them. That said they did tell me that they would want to see wiring connections, plumbing connections etc. on a 3rd floor space in my house finished by a previous homeowner without permit. Which means holes everywhere and then possible redo etc. I'm not ready for that hassle so the finished space will remain off the record for now.

I bought the house this way, don't see a reason I can't sell it this way.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

If he cites you for previous violations................. You better hope he does!! 

He inspects to UBC and IRC, minimum *safety* violations, not something he thinks is wrong. Things that are structural or fire safety, escape routes, etc., that are nation wide* minimum *standards. 

The citations are dangerous things that you are putting yourself and family at risk of life for. And anyone else after you sell the house. 

How sad you would be if someone died because you were ignorant or too cheap to build properly. 

Even worse, after you found out, you still were apprehensive to get a permit. *Here you have the opportunity to set things right, go for it!!* Be safe, G


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## Austn (May 8, 2009)

I did not get permits for several reasons. First, I had problems with an earlier experience. I had previously built a two story building that took several years to complete because as a do-it-yourselfer I could only work on it on weekends and vacations. I had a permit to do the work, but the inspections had to be postponed and the permit extended multiple times. Ultimately, the local office told me they would close the permit and force me to reapply if I didn't meet a final deadline. With the basement, I knew it would also take me several years to complete. 

Secondly, I couldn't afford an electrician to do the work. And finally, I wanted to avoid tax assessment increases...short-sighted I know.

I realize that I've made a big mistake, but I am not financially able to re-do the basement and I'm afraid of what my local code enforcement office would do if I contacted them.


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

harleysilo said:


> I bought the house this way, don't see a reason I can't sell it this way.


Just wait. It's coming. It's all the rage right now in my area. Huge negotiating point. You can tell a buyer to go pound sand or take it or leave it if he asks, but you're violating the disclosure statement if you fail to mention it. Buyer of my house wanted $30k off my price if I didn't have the approval stickers and permit records for my basement, deck, kitchen, and had an assessor document the value of a list of "corrections". I had them all. Every single permit, every single approval sticker, back to 1977 when my town adopted the UCC. I even had the original permit and CO from when the house was built in 1963. There was no negotiation. I didn't have to tell anyone to pound sand. And when I bought a few months later, I got the seller to knock close to $90k off his number because he didn't have any for two completed additions. I let that offer stew for 3 months. He didn't have a leg to stand on, so I got a smokin' deal. All of his hard work and money he poured into a wet bar/entertainment room/cabana addition and BR/Bath addition went down the toilet. I even got money back because the hot tub was relocated without a permit. There had always been one on the property, and the original owner had a permit for it, but this guy moved it across the yard and reran the electrical and relocated a panel without a permit.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Apply for your current permits and see what happens. Keep you mouth shut when he shows up and don't ask about your prevoius work not being permitted.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

harleysilo said:


> I bought the house this way, don't see a reason I can't sell it this way.


One problem is that much unpermitted remodeling by homeowners is readily discovered by an competent home inspector - even experienced contractors often find that municipal inspectors are requiring them to make changes, and the typical homeowner has a pretty thin chance of not making mistakes that flag their work unpermitted.

When I see this kind of work I'm required to protect both myself and my client to report my suspicions, and my recommendation is going to have to be that the client go down to the city building department and ask them to pull a permit history on the property, the permit clerk is going to ask why, and the next day the electrical, plumbing, and structural inspectors are knocking on the seller's front door.

At which point the seller - even if they decide they are otherwise inclined to "fight City Hall" - almost always end up having to bring the property into code compliance and/or make a substantial adjustment in the sales price to allow the new buyer to do so in order to sell the property.

This may not be "fair", but it's the way it works - from the perspective of the municipal building inspector "I bought it this way" sounds a bit a driver telling a cop he just rear-ended "The brakes were bad when I bought it, and I plan to sell it some day, so I didn't see why I should have to fix them."


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

Aggie67 said:


> Just wait. It's coming. It's all the rage right now in my area. Huge negotiating point. You can tell a buyer to go pound sand or take it or leave it if he asks, but you're violating the disclosure statement if you fail to mention it. Buyer of my house wanted $30k off my price if I didn't have the approval stickers and permit records for my basement, deck, kitchen, and had an assessor document the value of a list of "corrections". I had them all. Every single permit, every single approval sticker, back to 1977 when my town adopted the UCC. I even had the original permit and CO from when the house was built in 1963. There was no negotiation. I didn't have to tell anyone to pound sand. And when I bought a few months later, I got the seller to knock close to $90k off his number because he didn't have any for two completed additions. I let that offer stew for 3 months. He didn't have a leg to stand on, so I got a smokin' deal. All of his hard work and money he poured into a wet bar/entertainment room/cabana addition and BR/Bath addition went down the toilet. I even got money back because the hot tub was relocated without a permit. There had always been one on the property, and the original owner had a permit for it, but this guy moved it across the yard and reran the electrical and relocated a panel without a permit.


Hot tub permit here is required if the hot tub is indoors. An outdoor hot tub on a patio, no permit. No electrical permit for the new hookup either, but of course it must be done by an electrician.

I don't know for a fact that the previous homeowner did or did not pull a permit. Therefore I have nothing to disclose or not disclose. I don't know when the work was done, for all I know the tax assessors office doesn't have their act together and that's why it's not counted.

My total kitchen renovation down to the walls and subfloor required no permit. My re-leveling of floors, 750 sq. ft of tile, jacking of the house, no permit. 

Now when it comes time to finish my basement.....gonna need a permit for electrical and some plumbing. And I think i'll get one then, as I wouldn't want to have to get an inspection after the fact.


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

Michael Thomas said:


> One problem is that much unpermitted remodeling by homeowners is readily discovered by an competent home inspector - even experienced contractors often find that municipal inspectors are requiring them to make changes, and the typical homeowner has a pretty thin chance of not making mistakes that flag their work unpermitted.
> 
> When I see this kind of work I'm required to protect both myself and my client to report my suspicions, and my recommendation is going to have to be that the client go down to the city building department and ask them to pull a permit history on the property, the permit clerk is going to ask why, and the next day the electrical, plumbing, and structural inspectors are knocking on the seller's front door.
> 
> ...


I don't think asking for permit history gives the building inspector the right to inspect the property. Maybe I'm wrong. Nevertheless it is true that this is the condition in which I bought the property, regardless of how it sounds. I agree that doesn't magically make the work code compliant. 

You sound like an honest inspector. I wish our real estate agent had pointed us in the direction of one instead of suggesting the one she always used who was a deal maker and not a deal breaker. He missed a ton of stuff, and probably could have been sued. I learned my lesson. Truth is had he pointed out everything that was wrong, we still would have bought the house. Owner couldn't have sold it any lower unless they were willing to be upside down in paying off their mortgage at closing. You want it you buy it or go find another house type of situation.


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

I think generally speaking building codes etc. are much more strictly enforced north of the mason-dixon line.....


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

harleysilo said:


> I think generally speaking building codes etc. are much more strictly enforced north of the mason-dixon line.....


Wow - I am shocked and offended by this statement even with all the bickering that goes on in this forum (sometimes initiated or encouraged by yours truly). What an ignorant and prejudiced statement.

I find building codes etc are strictly enforced by conscientious inspectors, not by geography.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm an inspector...
If he's the only inspector in the town he may know your house and may know that the basement wasn't previously finished. If there are multiple inspectors the odds are that it probably won't raise any eyebrows. Most of us don't do a total historical search of a house when we're just there to look at a fireplace....But it could happen.

You made a big mistake in avoiding the process a few years ago. Inspectors are not there to hinder your project, they're there to be your advocate as a homeowner...To make sure everything is correct and safe. You'd probably find that the inspector isn't your adversary and can serve as an excellent resource for you during your project in many capacities.

As for taxes, this is a capitalist society and you have to pay to play. Tax avoidance is one of many sorry excuses for avoiding getting a permit and the necessary inspections.


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## Donn2390 (May 7, 2009)

How would an inspector know if something was added..? When they get called for an inspection do they check the history so they know what should and shouldn't be there..? 
A few years back we had a new home built, and we had a deck build off of the upstairs master BR. The guy that built it was the same guy that worked for the contractor, but we hired him on the side. We had an inspector out for something years later, and he spotted it immediately, even though it matched all the decks which were permitted.
We ended up paying a small increase in property tax. It wasn't much and we sold the home a while later.
We have a rental home built in 1952 in a rural area of Oregon. The city has no records of the home because it was built so long ago. 
Last year we did some remodeling without permit. There was no bathroom downstairs, just a laundry room with a comode in it. Across from the hall from the laundry room was an unfinished room previously used for storing canned goods. The room was Finished to match the house on the outside, it had electricity on the inside, but just stud walls and shelves for can goods on the inside.
We finished the room, moved the washer/dryer into that room, and remodeled the old laundry room into a modern bathroom with shower/tub with enclosure.
We use the home as a rental, but if we ever decide to sell, how would anyone know of the changes we made...?
I know, I'm a scufflaw, but my renters love me..!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Some of them who have worked for a Town for years know the houses. In other cases Town records are accessed - they list bedrooms, bathrooms, rooms. Taxes are based on this & usually lists out these items, maybe more
It's really not that hard for most of them to recognize new work


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## joel v. (Jan 26, 2009)

Aggie67 said:


> Just wait. It's coming. It's all the rage right now in my area. Huge negotiating point. You can tell a buyer to go pound sand or take it or leave it if he asks, but you're violating the disclosure statement if you fail to mention it. Buyer of my house wanted $30k off my price if I didn't have the approval stickers and permit records for my basement, deck, kitchen, and had an assessor document the value of a list of "corrections". I had them all. Every single permit, every single approval sticker, back to 1977 when my town adopted the UCC. I even had the original permit and CO from when the house was built in 1963. There was no negotiation. I didn't have to tell anyone to pound sand. And when I bought a few months later, I got the seller to knock close to $90k off his number because he didn't have any for two completed additions. I let that offer stew for 3 months. He didn't have a leg to stand on, so I got a smokin' deal. All of his hard work and money he poured into a wet bar/entertainment room/cabana addition and BR/Bath addition went down the toilet. I even got money back because the hot tub was relocated without a permit. There had always been one on the property, and the original owner had a permit for it, but this guy moved it across the yard and reran the electrical and relocated a panel without a permit.


INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT REMOVED. It is your job as a citizen to screw the government. Do everything you can to keep them out of your personal life. It's also just plain mean to make somebody knock 90k off because he didn't get a permit. Like you mentioned he tons of money and hours into it and you basically punished him for it. INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT REMOVED.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

joel v. said:


> You my friend are a jack a$$.It is your job as a citizen to screw the government. Do everything you can to keep them out of your personal life. It's also just plain mean to make somebody knock 90k off because he didn't get a permit. Like you mentioned he tons of money and hours into it and you basically punished him for it. You sicken me.


You think so? You think wrong
DO a search & read about the guy who may have to TEAR down the addition that was added WITHOUT a Permit!!
The work is worth NOTHING unless it was permitted & inspected
The Town can force the new owner to rip all the walls out & have the electric & insulation inspected

The former owner illegally did work, end of story


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

An addition without a permit is a big difference from remodeling your basement.


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

Also consider how much work I had to do to correct the deficiencies. How much drywall had to come down, duct work replaced, insulation replaced, concrete slabs opened up, redoing a bunch of shoddy pigtails, exterior wiring, a shed that had to get relocated because it never got zoning approval, replacing a woefully undersized furnace, ripping up flooring and sopping wet subfloors and treating inside the walls for mold and redoing a bathroom because he didn't know how to install a shower pan, redoing outlets because they were all the wrong heights, demolishing an entire kitchen and gas line because it was an illegal apartment, replacing two windows because they were sized and installed wrong, correcting a non-compliant pool fence. He paid the price for doing it wrong.

And you say I'm the jack a$$ in this story?


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## joel v. (Jan 26, 2009)

Remind me to never move to the city. I would ****!ng kill myself with all the permits you have to get. It must also be different around here. WE (like any other rural area) have thousands of mennonites and they build anything they want and don't have to get permits. It may be the way regs. are set up around here. Again I think permits are stupid and just another way to let the govt. get involved in your life. On top of that you made it sound like he did good work and you didn't want to pay him for that. Now your telling me that he made many mistakes and did sub standard work on all of it. 

Scuba Dave. I have read that thread before.When it was first posted on here. I feel sorry for that guy. The government is trying to tell somebody that they have to tear an addition down that was built many years before. Another good reason to tell the government to get the hell off your property and a good reason to be part of a land owners association.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

The problem with that addition - maybe being removed - is the fire hazard. When houses/additions are so close togther a fire in one will jump to the next house. One fire can quickly engulf an entire neighborhood. Also one reason permits & codes may be enforced more
I don't really want my neighbor installing a sub panel & using the wrong wire. It's becomes a matter of public safety. Luckily I only have one neighbor's house close enough that if a fire started it could spread to mine. Barring strong winds & cinders blowing.

Say someone just wants to sell there house
They do a quick mod, refinish the basement, add a deck that is structurally not sound. Without permits & inspection the next person is stuck with the problem. It can still happen.....

One guy tapped off the incoming feed wire to run electricity
He was turned in by a neighbor, paid a fine, was charged up the wazoo for all the power he COULD have used

Both of my houses have been in "Conservation" areas. Any & all permits for work had to be reviewed & approved by Conservation committee -- a royal PIA. I couldn't even see any water or wetlands anywhere near my last house

It's sometime hard to draw a line where too much government is too much.....or too little is not enough


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

joel v. said:


> Again I think permits are stupid and just another way to let the govt. get involved in your life.
> 
> Another good reason to tell the government to get the hell off your property and a good reason to be part of a land owners association.


Jeez Joel, The only people who are afraid of Big Brother watching their every move are those who have something to hide. What are you hiding?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

A land owners association has no ability to avoid codes & legal requirements


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## Zel1 (Mar 21, 2007)

Very interesting thread. I come from a family of carpenters and diy'ers. I do as much of my own work as I can. If I dont know how to do it, I learn before paying someone. With that being said, I overbuild everything and always follow safety code, however, I have not and do not plan to get permits for any of the work I do on my personal property. I see why the process exists, for safety, but I also realise that the inspectors are not interested in helping out the DIY homeowner. They assume we are all a bunch of hacks and they treat us as such. (I have friends and family who have been through hell with inspectors.)
I also hate the idea of my taxes going up because I improved my property. If I let the house dilapidate and dont do any maintenance or repairs, will they lower my taxes? I doubt it, so as far as I am concerned, the less they know about my house, the better. 

I mean no disrespect to inspectors. I simply dont like the current system.


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

Is this a real code violation??? Inspectors saw a window that had a basement slider sticker on it. It was GOING to be used high on a outside wall in a shower/tub combo. THEY said that was an inappropraite use of a window because it was labeled for basement and not above grade. it was a double pane vinyl window with exterior nailing fin,EXACTLY like a exterior slider window used every day above grade. Whats the difference?? They ALSO said "NO" windows allowed at ALL!! If the window is high enough so cant see in or out, allows in 'some' light' and air(when open) and doubled up with a vent fan,,,whats the harm??

Okay and while we are asking,,,does a permit asking trigger a whole house audit of every function of design,space, and function?? Like IF one wants to upgrade a elec. panel.,,, does the wiring inside the whole house have to be redone IF its 2 wire and not grounded?? Kithcen and bath were getting GFI's anyway!!

Or say the bathroom stool is NOW in too tight of quarters.(Whats the code say on how much room is 'right'?)

MY contention is there SHOULD be some happy compromise as to buildings that dont quite meet codes,minor wise,BUT cant be changed due to no where to expand whats too small for example. All in the air of making the city a BETTER place to live. If ALL older dwellings are condemned for MINOR infrations of code,there wouldnt be any houses LEFT!!! (AND thats half the reason permits arent requested here,,,they use it to condemn every older house they see!!!)(and NO I dont mean the UNSAFE ones,,,even better newer type construction)

I heard they condemned a really GOOD house,older, because it had 2 X 4 rafters,,,tons of old houses have 2 X 4 rafters,thats all that was used back in the steeper roof days!!!

I heard of a 4 unit building being totaly inspected,had to be deoccupied, and is still setting vacant 20 years after one tenant called the city and ASKED how to get rid of a garder snake basking on the front steps. they tromped over within 10 minutes with "5" inspectors and sent the owner a laundry list of major and minor repairs they required a mile long that couldnt be met. and this building isnt all THAT old!!


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

4just1don said:


> Is this a real code violation??? Inspectors saw a window that had a basement slider sticker on it. It was GOING to be used high on a outside wall in a shower/tub combo. THEY said that was an inappropraite use of a window because it was labeled for basement and not above grade. it was a double pane vinyl window with exterior nailing fin,EXACTLY like a exterior slider window used every day above grade. Whats the difference??


Most people don't understand how or why the building codes are created - they aren't thought up by a bunch of pointy headed bureaucrats and nanny state morons, the codes are constantly evolving, and the changes in the result of input from manufacturers, building code officials, industry representatives, tradespeople and others who live and work with the practical consequences of the codes on a day-to-day basis.

If you think the code should be changed - to make it either more or less lenient - you can submit proposals to the panel responsible for a given section of the code, and it will be discussed and debated (and believe me, these discussions can get very intense), and eventually a vote will be taken I whether to incorporate the changes. (And BTW, the changes aren't always in the direction of making the code more strict, for example a few years back they eliminated the prohibition of the "ladder effect" (created for example when you use horizontal cables in guard rails) which was intended to prevent children from climbing on over the guard railings. I think it's a significant hazard, but absent the ability to demonstrate that it really is the manufacturers of such products were able to get the prohibition lifted).

The other thing that most people don't appreciate is that code requirements result in large part from actual experience.

Tempered or "safety glass" requirements where people may fall against or inadvertently strike the glass is a good example: at inspections when I'm explaining the importance of safety glass in doors someone will occasionally roll up their sleeve and show me a really nasty scar that resulted when they were juggling several bags of groceries and the keys as they tried to open the door, bumped hard against it, and broke glass.

Fortunately because of modern requirements for safety glazing the majority of these are old injuries, however as I've heard such stories - many involving injuries received as children - over and over at inspections it's become very clear to me that this is a real and not hypothetical risk.

And at a guess that's why the municipal building inspector flagged the "basement slider" installed above the shower - current national standards require such windows to be safety glazed  as this is a high risk situation, for instance people standing on a slippery tub or shower - especially children or the elderly - may lose their balance while reaching up for the bottle of shampoo on the windowsill.

-------
Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson


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## ifonlyi'dknown (Aug 23, 2010)

*Building code violations*

Municipal building inspectors and the statute of limitations:
There isn't one. 
The buyers of my home were advised to have a town building inspector in when their bank demanded a survey before agreeing to finance them. I have been in this house for only four years and have added nothing but landscaping to the property. 
The building inspector could find no permit for the 345 square foot, heated workshop (a replica of the house) and demanded that in order to satisfy the lack of permit I remove all the drywall and ceiling from the workshop so that the electrical, framing and rafters can be inspected. This involved removing 22 feet of built in shelving and two ten foot worktables. As this was being done (at great expense) the land survey announced that the workshop had been built three inches too close to the lot line. The lot backs onto an acre lot that is totally treed. The lot beside is 8 feet from the workshop. Now the entire building has to be dismantled and removed.
Thinking of building something without a permit? Don't bother if you live in BC and are ever thinking of selling. And don't think of buying a property either before you have a good lawyer who is knowledgable about permits and does his homework before he hands you a bill for his 'real estate services'.


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## H. A. S. (Aug 18, 2010)

Zel1 said:


> Very interesting thread. I come from a family of carpenters and diy'ers. I do as much of my own work as I can. If I dont know how to do it, I learn before paying someone. With that being said, I overbuild everything and always follow safety code, however, I have not and do not plan to get permits for any of the work I do on my personal property. I see why the process exists, for safety, but I also realise that the inspectors are not interested in helping out the DIY homeowner. They assume we are all a bunch of hacks and they treat us as such. (I have friends and family who have been through hell with inspectors.)
> I also hate the idea of my taxes going up because I improved my property. If I let the house dilapidate and dont do any maintenance or repairs, will they lower my taxes? I doubt it, so as far as I am concerned, the less they know about my house, the better.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to inspectors. I simply dont like the current system.



Have to agree with that statement...none of their damn business.:furious::thumbsup:


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Don't think I would like living where you guys live. I rewired and replumbed my own house, no permit needed. Here, you are allowed to do almost anything to your own property. And that is the way it should be everywhere. Of course, I'm 62 years old and started working on houses at age 8, so I do know what I am doing. Once you leave the city limits here, there are no building codes at all.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

My neighbors got to keep an entire second floor addition that was built without a permit. The reason I was given was that they already had it built before it came to the building inspector's attention that it was being built. They were made to apply for the permit, pay the permit fee and presumably an inspection would follow. 

Of the four reasons posted previously I would choose "1. Unknown process. They weren't familiar with the the process, so they stayed away from it."
It is very confusing in my village. Even the code enforcement officer doesn't have all the answers. Some of the permits come from the cillage, some come from the county. I have have several contractors in my house who, if they pulled permits, I never saw them. Why don't they post information about the proces on the Chamber of commerce or some other municipal website.


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