# still have drafts after insulation



## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

I have a 65 year old 1 story brick home 1100 sq ft not including the basement that has NO insulation in the walls at all. I had a new furnace, attic air seal and insulated to R49, and the rim joists spray foamed 2 weeks ago. 

In the basement there are 3 supply vents and one return vent.The basement temp was 57F-60F before the rim joists were insulated, now the max temp in the basement with the thermostat upstairs set at 76F is 68F. There are a few drafts in the basement but it is not too bad down there. Just wondering why it will not go above 68F when it is 9 degrees warmer upstairs.

The furnace turns on for about 10 minutes 2-3 times per hour. Dr. energy saver told us do not worry about insulating the walls because the air coming in is due to the attic and rim joists leaking air in and that insulating the walls in this style of home would be difficult and too expensive. There were always drafts in here but it feels like the drafts have drastically increased. 

The company that installed the furnace told me that running the fan on the furnace would even out the temp throughout the house reducing drafts and increasing the temp in the basement. I turned on the furnace fan, it did not increase the temp or decrease the drafts in fact it seemed to make it feel colder in the house.

Does anyone have any opinions about this or what I should do?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Basements will be cooler even if they have vents down there, if the walls are not insulated. The whole garbage that it is too expensive to blow insulation into the Balloon Framing, sounds to me like a bunch of garbage.

If you hired them to insulate your home, they should have insulated the whole structure, not bits and pieces.

Post a copy of the signed contract they gave you, showing what they agreed to do.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1 to Greg's comments.

Insulating the walls is not easy but certainly worth doing.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

gregzoll said:


> Basements will be cooler even if they have vents down there, if the walls are not insulated. The whole garbage that it is too expensive to blow insulation into the Balloon Framing, sounds to me like a bunch of garbage.
> 
> If you hired them to insulate your home, they should have insulated the whole structure, not bits and pieces.
> 
> Post a copy of the signed contract they gave you, showing what they agreed to do.


This is the only detailed document showing exactly what they are going to do. 
There are also before but not after pics of the areas they air sealed and insulated.

I know i need to get the walls air sealed but what is the cheapest way to do this effectively.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Looks like you only agreed to the attic and Rim joist area in the basement. Do you have anything in writing as to why they would not do the walls, when you hired them, or was everything in verbal agreement, that this "Dr. Energy" would not for some reason do the walls.

Did they cite that there is live Knob & Tube inside the house, is why they would not do the walls, along with written proof that they found live Knob & Tube.

That Chimney looks pretty new up there in the attic.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

gregzoll said:


> Looks like you only agreed to the attic and Rim joist area in the basement. Do you have anything in writing as to why they would not do the walls, when you hired them, or was everything in verbal agreement, that this "Dr. Energy" would not for some reason do the walls.
> 
> Did they cite that there is live Knob & Tube inside the house, is why they would not do the walls, along with written proof that they found live Knob & Tube.
> 
> That Chimney looks pretty new up there in the attic.


Nothing was in writing about the walls. They said that there was only one inch of wall cavity and it would be very difficult to get a hose in there for cellulose and that the hose for spray foam could be put in there but would be a mess and very expensive. 

All of the return vents are on the outside walls and use the wall cavities as the duct work. When the furnace is on i can feel the cold air being pulled in through the brick if i put my hand in there. The other thing is if I take a tape measure and measure from the brick to the back side of the drywall I get a measurement of 6 inches of wall cavity. Either they are wrong about the 1 inch of wall cavity or my measurements are off.

As far as I know there is no knob and tube wiring in the house and they said they did not see any. It seemed like they did not want to bother with drilling through the brick to put the spray foam in the walls. 

Would cellulose work in the kitchen since the cabinets are in the way of drilling holes? or would the only option for that be to go from the outside?

We have lived here for 20 years and never been in the attic so as far as I know that chimney should be at least 20 years old. They said that the attic looked very clean and no water damage but had very little fiberglass insulation that looked to be from the 1970's.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Could you please describe the wall make-up?

Where are you located- in the South ? due to the paper facing in the insulation batt facing the attic= cooling climate... but the 10" thick of cellulose is about R-32 before settling tells me you are in a heating climate....?

Did they add any baffles to keep the attic ventilation open- unblocked by the new cellulose?

Gary


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> Could you please describe the wall make-up?
> 
> Where are you located- in the South ? due to the paper facing in the insulation batt facing the attic= cooling climate... but the 10" thick of cellulose is about R-32 before settling tells me you are in a heating climate....?
> 
> ...


The walls are solid brick with a wall stud that are not structural. There is the original plaster/lathe then drywall on top of that. There is zero insulation in the wall cavities. Before they insulated the rim joists I could go into the basement and look up in the wall cavities with a flashlight. I measured the wall cavity to be 6 inches and they say less than 1 inch.


I am in st. Louis Mo. They are supposed to come back to fill in a few spots they missed and I will ask them about the baffles then. I did ask them specifically about the attic air flow and they said they left it open for air flow but not how they did it. I did not see them take any baffles up there so I am guessing they did not use any baffles.

I have been reading about a liquid brick sealant that is for waterproofing but also stops air flow. Does anyone know if this would create an air seal? If it would this would be much cheaper than getting the wall cavities insulated.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

As for air sealing around Windows, Doors, outlet boxes, I use DAP Foam in the can (Easy clean-up with water, soft foam after setting, which gives a good R value). This is the Weatherstripping I use for Doors. WJ Dennis 3-pc White Compression Poly-Foam Door Set Weatherstrip http://www.menards.com/main/doors-w...am-door-set-weatherstrip/p-1914442-c-3624.htm

Make sure that you are also attacking any leans from the outside with a good Silicone based caulk, bathroom, Kitchen hood, Dryer vents have a damper on them. This is what I am using for the bath & dryer now P-tec Products Inc NPVW No-Pest Vent http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0032Y7EQO/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also went with Darkening drapes that have an insulating property to them, to help keep out cold, when they are closed at night.

It almost becomes a full-time job when you start attacking the whole Heat/Cold infiltration of a home.

As for the fact that your home has walls against the brick face with little room, yes it leaves very little to place any insulation in those cavities, so you almost end up having to do it while the walls are down, and going with Spray on foam, then two layers of 5/8" Drywall, with Green Glue between. Not only cuts down on noise, but also helps for insulating.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

did I read it correctly- that the cavity between the finished interior wall and the brick outside wall is used as a conduit or duct for the heating system?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

You need R-10 somewhere inside the structural brick wall- footnote "i" mass wall; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Missouri

Either some spray foam and fibrous insulation or all SPF; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...g-masonry-walls-in-cold-climates/?full_view=1

Could you post a few pics of the view from the basement of the walls above? http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/how-resize-photos-post-them-here-110722/

Gary
PS. a couple pics of the intake (soffit) vents would help also, again- about 6-8' away from ground.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> did I read it correctly- that the cavity between the finished interior wall and the brick outside wall is used as a conduit or duct for the heating system?


Yes that is correct. If I remove the cover for the return I can see the unfinished back side of the brick and mortar of the house. There is no metal duct in there just the wall cavity. When it is 20 degrees outside and the furnace is on you can feel the 20 degree air pulling through the brick if you put your hand in there.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> You need R-10 somewhere inside the structural brick wall- footnote "i" mass wall; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Missouri
> 
> Either some spray foam and fibrous insulation or all SPF; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...g-masonry-walls-in-cold-climates/?full_view=1
> 
> ...


I will get the pics of the soffit vents later today.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> You need R-10 somewhere inside the structural brick wall- footnote "i" mass wall; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Missouri
> 
> Either some spray foam and fibrous insulation or all SPF; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...g-masonry-walls-in-cold-climates/?full_view=1
> 
> ...



A few more pics from inside the return vent in the basement.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Due to your return set up. The basement won't stay as warm as the first floor even if it wee to reach the same temp as the first floor during the heat call. The cold air from your first floor returns will always "fall" into the basement.

The brick must be sealed, and then the space above the return blocked off, and insulated. Some of the cold air you feel in the return, is coming from the attic. often those spaces were used to run wires up to the attic and then to another location. So cold air comes through the holes for the wires also. So any holes in the plates in the attic, should have been sealed before they insulated.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm with beenthere. You're going to have to establish some type of a thermal break to keep the cold air that comes in from the brick and filling the cavity.Otherwise you have good old fashioned physics. Probably don't want to hear this, but you maybe better off picking a couple of wall bays and opening them up and putting in the proper duct work in and insulating them properly. or run the duct outside the wall and box them in.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> I'm with beenthere. You're going to have to establish some type of a thermal break to keep the cold air that comes in from the brick and filling the cavity.Otherwise you have good old fashioned physics. Probably don't want to hear this, but you maybe better off picking a couple of wall bays and opening them up and putting in the proper duct work in and insulating them properly. or run the duct outside the wall and box them in.


The company that installed the new furnace suggested using 1/2 inch of spray foam in there but it seems a rather tight squeeze to get full proper coverage. There are a total of 4 return vents upstairs. 2 of them are just like shown in the picture and the other 2 I can actually get full access to by removing a few screws and a duct box to expose the joist space and wall space. For the two that I cannot get full access to is there something that is prefabricated that I can buy at lowes or home depot to just insert in there?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You can get a Flex Camera, to allow you to get a picture inside the cavity. Harbor Freight sells them, along with the other Big Box. You may need to get a flexible light, to shine into the cavity, so you can get a better image.

As for the return issue, I would move them into the inner area of the home. You can use Closet's to get from the first floor to the Second floor, then build a box around the Return and Supply ductwork to hide them.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

you might be able to find something, even something used for new linings in a chimney. But your still going to have to create some type of thermal break other wise the cold is just going to seep through the brick even if it is sealed and chill the duct work Is there a separate return for each room? can you seal the ones off that you can't get to and use the others? not to mention insulating all the other open bays.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

they used to make a duct that was oblong and flat so it would fit between wall studs and be covered. Best option is I think is to go with my or Greg"s idea and then even if you don"t have the cash at this time seal the bays both bottom and top otherwise they all act as mini chimney's and create drafts.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> you might be able to find something, even something used for new linings in a chimney. But your still going to have to create some type of thermal break other wise the cold is just going to seep through the brick even if it is sealed and chill the duct work Is there a separate return for each room? can you seal the ones off that you can't get to and use the others? not to mention insulating all the other open bays.


I forgot about the return vent in the hallway (on an inside wall) so there is actually 5 return vents upstairs. The grill for the return in the hallway is 12'x8'. I think this would give me room to seal off at least one of them and still have good air flow to the furnace. The return in the basement is 12'x8' and on an inside wall as well. Is 2 12x8 returns enough for the furnace or will that cause problems?


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

you sure these are all returns for the furnace and not some type of passive cooling system for the summer? cool are being drwawn up from the basement and out through the attic. I'd think it would be wise to get your heat guy in there and see . If there is a dedicated cold air return to the furnace, then why all the other ones??? Also open and closing doors can have a big effect if they are to close to the carpet or floor. If door is closed to a room with no return it can have a direct effect on heat in that room..in with hot, out with the cold.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> you sure these are all returns for the furnace and not some type of passive cooling system for the summer? cool are being drwawn up from the basement and out through the attic. I'd think it would be wise to get your heat guy in there and see . If there is a dedicated cold air return to the furnace, then why all the other ones??? Also open and closing doors can have a big effect if they are to close to the carpet or floor. If door is closed to a room with no return it can have a direct effect on heat in that room..in with hot, out with the cold.


I am absolutely sure these are connected to the furnace. There is a duct running from it to the furnace. This was verified by the hvac contractor when I had my new furnace installed. There is a piece of wood at the top preventing air flow any further up the wall. I took a pic to show the piece of wood at the top.

The 2 inside wall returns give me about 200 sq inches of grill surface. I thought I needed 500 sq inches for 1100 cfm. So are you saying the two returns are enough and I can just fill those other cavities with spray foam to close them off?


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

IMHO, the air in the attic is not coming down in the walls regardless if is air sealed or not. The stack effect feeding an attic doesn't work like that; http://www.wag-aic.org/1999/WAG_99_baker.pdf

The heat from rooms is mixing with the convective loops in that 6" air space, Fig.4 and others; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...9EVKki&sig=AHIEtbTb5UnlVQ7Je0R-_NGatSVo3wzmAQ

Foam all at 1-3/4" (R-10.5) thick except RA ones, in those foam bricks at 3/4" thick only (R-4.5) for an 83% reduction in heat loss and still able to use as air returns; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...VjgAkW8XzKgQkGg&bvm=bv.44442042,d.cGE&cad=rja

Block others off from basement/room above at floor line for fire-stop required per code; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par017.htm Hit "next section" for fire-block materials used. The drywall/P&L will help air seal from the cavities.

With suggested thickness of foam, cavity insulation is not required, though RA chases on an exterior wall are never a good idea (unless more room for foam and still have NFA for RA), #4- "flush our toilets" was a good one, lol; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-built-wrong-from-start

Photos 7-9; http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-039-five-things

Gary


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Don't seal off any of the return vents. Your probably need more then you have. I'm basing that on the tradition of most homes not having enough return. Specially older homes.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree, that is what I said. How much is normal return air, how big is the furnace, rooms, etc.? Seems like someone could figure that size over the net.... or is it one where you really need to be there, beenthere? If it was 6" deep and the SPF 3/4" deep would the 4" x 14" be wide enough, times two places? (It does appear to only be 4" wide at the framing....) I wouldn't restrict it beyond how much? I'm sure the OP could give you the info you need....

Gary


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

A normal 2X4(3.5"X14") wall cavity used as a return chase is only good for a max of 140 CFM. If he has 5 returns like that. Then he has enough for 700 CFM. Which is ok for a 45,000 BTU output furnace, which would give a temp rise of 60°F.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

beenthere said:


> A normal 2X4(3.5"X14") wall cavity used as a return chase is only good for a max of 140 CFM. If he has 5 returns like that. Then he has enough for 700 CFM. Which is ok for a 45,000 BTU output furnace, which would give a temp rise of 60°F.


The return in the living room takes up 2 wall cavities. Would this count as 280 cfm or still just be 140. there is also a return in the basement. The furnace is 70,000 btu.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

It would account for as much as 280 CFM.

A 70,000 BTU input 80% efficient furnace needs 865 CFM to keep temp rise down to 60°F.

A 70,000 BTU input 90% efficient furnace needs 972 CFM to keep temp rise down to 60°F.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

beenthere said:


> It would account for as much as 280 CFM.
> 
> A 70,000 BTU input 80% efficient furnace needs 865 CFM to keep temp rise down to 60°F.
> 
> A 70,000 BTU input 90% efficient furnace needs 972 CFM to keep temp rise down to 60°F.


I will not be removing any returns then. I already spent 7,500 on the furnace and 3,800 on the air sealing and insulation so I am trying to do this for as little as possible. Would it cost less to move the returns to an inside wall or do the thinner amount of spray foam in the existing returns.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You can move the returns to the floors and keep them on the outside perimeter. And seal off the opening in the plate where they are now. That would probably be the least costly.

If you move them to the inside wall area, it might not cost much if anymore. but you have to make sure that they won't be able to draw in supply air.

How thick you spray foam, depends on how much insulation value "you" want.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

but as soon as you spray the foam in the cavity and it expands it will automatically decrease the size of the return, and there's the problem of trying to do it uniformly.Did this house at one time have an old gravity warm air heating system?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

hpyjack2013 said:


> but as soon as you spray the foam in the cavity and it expands it will automatically decrease the size of the return, and there's the problem of trying to do it uniformly.Did this house at one time have an old gravity warm air heating system?


I was referring to spray foaming after you relocated the returns.

It was common for 1940s and 50s homes to have the returns on the outside walls.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

the old insulation was removed I hope? because it was put in wrong the Kraft face needs to be facing down to the warm side.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

So I had someone come out and check my walls. The opening of the return vents is much larger than the rest of the walls. They drilled a hole in the wall and there is less than one inch of wall cavity. Apparently there are 2 layers of brick in my walls and one was removed at the opening of the return vent making the wall cavity look deeper than it actually is.

I was told there is not enough room to inject foam or cellulose. Is this true and if it is is there a way I can just seal up the brick so the air cannot get into the walls to create drafts.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

Nailbags said:


> the old insulation was removed I hope? because it was put in wrong the Kraft face needs to be facing down to the warm side.


Not sure how they put the insulation back in. I do know they said they reused the old fiberglass. The opening to my attic is very small and about 9 feet up. I am about 300 pounds and would not fit through the attic access so I cannot actually see for myself what they did up there.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> but as soon as you spray the foam in the cavity and it expands it will automatically decrease the size of the return, and there's the problem of trying to do it uniformly.Did this house at one time have an old gravity warm air heating system?


I have never heard of a gravity warm air heating system. The house was built in 1958. We have lived here 20 years so I am not sure what used to be in this house. It is obvious that a lot of stuff has been done by a handyman that had no idea what he was doing. 

Two of the return vents were there but not actually connected. there was also working return vent and supply vent on the back porch that is not an enclosed part of the house. Somebody that lived here before me decided they would try to heat an outside space. We have had those disconnected and sealed.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Gravity hot air was very popular with coal furnaces. Then later with gas fired and oil fired furnaces. Few and far between these days.


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## hpyjack2013 (Sep 16, 2013)

you can "seal" the brick all day long but if you don't stop the cold from "radiating into" the void it's not going to do much other than waterproof the brick face. Pardon the pun but the common "thread" through out these posts is to fill the voids with some type of insulation and move and create the returns to the inside cavity of the house.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The asphalt coated facing on the fiberglass insulation is fine if they left it facing up- instead of down, and covered it after air sealing. It is still in the 1/3 of insulation closest to the living space. And it will compress about 2" due to the added cellulose weight, dropping from R-19 to R-13, plus the added 10" of R-32 = R-45. 

Gary


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

hpyjack2013 said:


> you can "seal" the brick all day long but if you don't stop the cold from "radiating into" the void it's not going to do much other than waterproof the brick face. Pardon the pun but the common "thread" through out these posts is to fill the voids with some type of insulation and move and create the returns to the inside cavity of the house.


That makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation I will not be wasting my time and money waterproofing the brick.


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

breynold76 said:


> Not sure how they put the insulation back in. I do know they said they reused the old fiberglass. The opening to my attic is very small and about 9 feet up. I am about 300 pounds and would not fit through the attic access so I cannot actually see for myself what they did up there.


A simple way around that issue is to mount a digital camera on a tripod and stick it up in the attic through the opening and set it on portrait mode so it trips the shutter after a few seconds. I did this to check the interior of my fireplace flue after the chimney sweeps told me that the tiles were shifting and it was unsafe to use. My camera showed me otherwise.


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## breynold76 (Nov 22, 2013)

Dave Sal said:


> A simple way around that issue is to mount a digital camera on a tripod and stick it up in the attic through the opening and set it on portrait mode so it trips the shutter after a few seconds. I did this to check the interior of my fireplace flue after the chimney sweeps told me that the tiles were shifting and it was unsafe to use. My camera showed me otherwise.


I am going to do that to check up on them and make sure they did what they said they did.


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