# Talk me off this ledge!



## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

*Engineers jumping ship*

Haven't been able to get an Engineer on board. At some point I am just going to have to go forward without their blessing.


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## taqwus (May 19, 2011)

Just looked at your project to see if I can help, but that one is far ahead of my civil engineering skills
Good luck on it


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks,

I really think the guys I've had out here to look at it are over-complicating it.

It's been stable for 40 years with nothing but a few crumbly dry-stack walls holding it in place.

Now I want to replace all the rotten sandstone with CMU core poured with rods and footings and suddenly its a problem? Planning on backfilling with enough gravel to start my own quarry, weep holes, perf pipe, tie-backs and pilasters if necessary. Throw in a few bond beams and pin the whole thing to the bedrock 12" below grade. What could go wrong?

I don't understand. Is it going to be easy? No. Is it doable? Yes


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

So, what kind of feedback are you looking for?


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry, I guess I was ranting a little and forgot to ask a question.

Anyone ever sprayed Quikrete's Quickwall Surface Bonding Cement through a mortar hopper?

Trying to guess the PSI and CFM. Going to go research it now, as soon as my coffee cup is full.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Guess I'm just looking for someone to spit-ball ideas with.

If you read through my posts you'll see I have just enough construction know-how to get myself in trouble (hence my signature). This is my first real dirt project and I'm sweating it.

I know there are many retired pros, altruistic pros and hardcore DIY warriors on here that might know a trick or two.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

It does seem odd that you selected a CMU wall in your cold climate where deep footers are needed. But maybe the shallow bedrock eliminates the need.

I live in a mild climate where deep footers are not needed. CMU walls are common and many of them fail. The construction of walls is not controlled here or permits required. A lot of walls are DIY.

Around here most CMU walls fail because of inadequate width of footer, inadequate steel re-enforcement from footer to wall, and lack of vertical steel and concrete fill in the block voids. 

Block masons often build walls that fail when they do as they would for a house foundation. Walls for a house have the added weight of block above the ground as well as the house, and the house floor locks the top of the wall for lateral stability. 

Homeowners are often successful with 2 ft high walls, but a DIY wall more than 4ft almost always fails. Homeowners just do not understand that a 4ft wall has many more times the force against it than does a 2ft wall.

The sketchups you provide do not show the height or separation between walls.

I wonder where you are with the topo map? Maybe you dropped it, since you weren't successful hiring an engineer. The map was important to the engineer and is even more so to you. Here is an early map of my property before I started my wall project. (walls in blue, about 400 lf)


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry, sick PC and fighting with resizing the jpeg image.

The 2' Topo is in my albums now.

I met with a Landscaping Pro yesterday and we had a good "ideas session".

I think the 3rd wall is going to go bye-bye and be replaced with a dry-stack "aesthetic wall". We'll make up the difference in the heights of the other two

The top wall is going to become a counterforte design, which will (hopefully) allow us to move the wall farther forward on the footing without creating tipping issues.

Had a Commercial/Civil Engineer out on Friday. Good vibes that his firm might be interested. Next Engineer is Thursday

I'm also chronicling my sad saga over on Ground Trades Exchange if anyone is interested in following it over there.

Working today on modifying my SketchUp files to reflect the new directions. Might also look into having hyper-accurate 1' interval Topo done of the back hill.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Another idea that emerged is the possibility of using Aerated Cellular Concrete products where possible. The step treads seem especially well suited to this.

Anyone heard of a landscaping step tread made of this product? Opinions on durability?


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

The topo survey gives a good general idea of the site. The graphic resizing did make the details un-readable. Maybe you could give it another shot? Try cropping the graphic to just the area from the street to just past the project boundary. Then resize the cropped graphic.

There are elements to the topo that lead me to believe it was part of a plan for the property rather than a post construction survey. If this is true, the actual grades may differ from that shown on the survey.

I haven't seen where you have said what the wall heights might be.

If the contours shown on the graphic are on 2ft intervals, then I think it is unlikely this project can be completed for $15k even if all labor is free.


I read your posts on the other site and i agree with your comments on the look and cost of SRW versus masonry walls. You also said "_I have (am) considering forming all of the walls and pumping in but I'm not comfortable with building my own blow-out proof forms. With such massive walls and heights, its to much for DIY Guy._" DIY'ers do suffer blow-outs, simply because they fail to understand the pressure that wet concrete exerts on forms, especially on tall pours. But it's not rocket science. A little study of the way pros use snap ties would lead to success. Or you could do as I did and build your own bolt together forms. I've never come close to a blow out.

There are a lot of good reasons for SRW in a cold climate. But once you commit to a masonry wall, I think cost, strength, and skills needed favor a poured wall over CMU.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Never did have any success with zooming in the Topo. If anyone is interested in either the Topo or SketchUp file, PM me your email address and I'll send them over.

Power was out all day yesterday and finally came on this morning. So today is adding buttresses and counterforting to the walls.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Wow, certainly an aggressive project you have in mind.

Maybe a dumb question, but have you completely ruled our a segmental retaining wall system? There is lot's of information on them available from the manu's, and plenty of engineers who seem to be comfortable in designing the systems. They also have quite a bit of aesthetic options.

If your set on CMU constrution, I'd certainly look at an "Ivany" type block:

http://www.ivanyblock.com/

Extremely strong system for the heights & loads you're apparently working with. Even then though, CMU is going to be alot of work. As for a sprayed finish, I textured my entire shop (after a smooth coat of plaster) with a drywall hopper gun and a strange mix of mortar. It looks like a fairly rough "orange peal" finish, and hides quite a bit of the plaster imperfections.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

The aerated concrete you mentioned may have extremely variable properties because of the different manufacturing processes.

The most common type is autoclaved aerated concrete that has been around for decades in Europe. It is available in various densities, but it is genrally not good for abrasion.

Your engineer may also look at segmental retaining wall block (split, colored) that are usually referred to as SRWs that are not laid on a concrete footing (8"-12" thick compacted base instead) with no mortar, rebar or grout allowed. The walls can be straight, curved (inside or outside curves) and can be built with decreasing heights. The tallest wall I have seen is 40' and I also saw a series of walls 6 miles along a freeway with high walls (20' -30') with additional walls offset back that were between 5' and 15' high. It is definitely an engineered project to determine the length and spacing of the geo-grid fabric that is used for the soil retained. Hundreds of millions of sf of this construction has been built internationally. there are 4 major systems (Allan, Anchor, Keystone and Versalok) that a good engineer will be familiar with and can look for applicability for your project.

Dick


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks guys.

Unfortunately the Customer (my wife) is dead set against anything SRW. I like the Rosetta Stone Outcroppping collection from an install perspective but she said it would feel like we were living in a zoo display.

After thinking about it last night I'm starting to lean away from the CMU and toward a monolithic concrete pour.

With the CMU's I'd have 3 different mixes and 3 different set/up tear/downs.

1. Footing mix
2. SBC Mix and sprayer
3. Core grout

With one big pour I could save a-lot of steps.

Still sweating the wall forms though


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Earlier in this thread bedrock is mentioned to be at a shallow depth. One possibility not talked about is removing all of the soil and loose rocks over the bedrock. The result might be a pleasing look of a stone cliff serving the same function as a wall. A short wall might be needed at the top to prevent soil being washed onto the lower bedrock. And rock planters could be located at spots on the cliff to provide a place for plants.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Utilizing the site topo provided, I imported a small strip of grid and calibrated the scale to one of the lot boundary dimensions. Next the grid strip was relocated to a position through the house and up the slope.

A part of the site topo was then imported to a grid and scaled to fit it. A line was selected (red) as a x-section location. The location of the contour lines was then used to plot a profile on the grid. It shows a house dimension front to back of 28ft. and slope behind the house to be about 45%.

This is a very steep slope and I would expect there to be heavy erosion trails down it. 

The profile can be used to consider size and location for walls.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Very nice! I hadn't seen that before.

We do have a few areas where the sandstone walls have slid aside and created mini erosion washes.

The original owners had a lot of the hill overgrown with Crown Vetch which is devil weed unless you have a slope you're trying to hold. Might replant some this Fall.

Thanks so much for your help. I'm kind of embarrassed you spent time on my project. I was just expecting guys to point and laugh and looking for a place to rant.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

And thank you for the kind words. I’m retired and have more time for idle pursuits than most. It was I that recommended you get the topo map done, knowing full well that you would not how to use it as a design tool. 

There are many homeowners that need retaining walls. Most will fear building one. Maybe that’s a good thing because most homeowners fail to understand he immense pressures on walls higher than 3 feet. If you continue to post your efforts at doing this project, it will likely aid many people to understand what is involved in building a wall. A forum is a place where we learn from each other.

Any number of walls could be chosen for this site. I’ll look at one possibility. Your first concept for the site was three walls. Below I select possible locations for the walls on the profile such that they span the vertical height needed of around 15 ft with a relative equal height for each wall of 5ft. I make the locations and depth to the footer keeping in mind that you said the bedrock was about 1ft deep.











I note the ground elevation at the above wall locations of 1158.8, 1163.5, and 1169.0. Turning to the plan view, I can now draw the walls, holding to the contours. The walls can be shorter or longer than those shown. Note that I have turned the ends of the walls back into the slope to match the elevation for the top of each wall.












Since you seem very capable with sketchup, I wonder if you can import this type of graphic and develop a 3d version.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

pls8xx said:


> One possibility not talked about is removing all of the soil and loose rocks over the bedrock.


I like this idea and am looking into it for the left side of the house. We are building a deck there in Phase III and I will probably push that left hill as far back as possible, allowing for some storage/shaded area under the deck.

The Plan view looks great. I am working on importing the Topo into SketchUp now.


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Whether a removal to bare bedrock is possible depends on the nature and form the rock. Pardon my crude artwork, but this is something like I was visualizing ....


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

OK, here is the SketchUp 2D Export. If anyone is interested in the full file PM me. 

I used the Import tool in the File menu to bring in the jpeg of the Topo Survey

I placed the image flat on the "ground" and then used the Tape Measure Tool to measure the right property line. It measured 4'6" which was a little short, so I typed in 115' on the keyboard and hit Enter to resize the model. SU rescales the entire photo to match the right property line to 115'

Then I used the pencil tool to trace around the entire property perimeter creating a shape on the face of the jpeg. I turned the Face Styles to x-ray so I could see through the shape and used it like tracing paper to copy my Topo lines "up" onto my tracing paper.

Once all my topo-lines were traced from property line to property line. I started using the Push/Pull tool to pull up each section from the street at 2' intervals. Still a couple of problems in the details, related to my lines not being straight.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Actually I wish it was easy to do as I made it sound. I'm no SU expert and I've been beating my head against it for the last hour or so :laughing:


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Looks nice. When you finalize your plan you'll be able to move about the 3d model to get a feel for how it will turn out.

I've seen some impressive stuff done with sketch-up. I never took the time to learn it and don't even have a copy on this computer.

Are you still leaning toward a poured wall? Here is a photo of one of my DIY walls.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

I am still liking the monolithic pour ideas. I touched base with a concrete pumping company today and they run both ends of the pump, so I can coordinate the ready-mix trucks and take my time making sure all of my forms are right on the money.

Our Township Zoning official is stopping out tomorrow to give us a final decision on Permit/No Permit. It's about a $600 swing on the Engineering fees but not a big deal.

I'm reading Concrete Wall Forms by Houghton (1910) on Google Books right now. A little dated but free. I find the older books have more information in them than these glossy photo Edutainment Books from the BB Stores anyway.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

So after their site visit yesterday, the Township is still declining to require a permit (I'm not complaining, but WOW :excl.

I guess my next step is some solid Working Drawings of my walls? Should I mock them in up in SketchUp and then run them by the Engineer or let the Engineer do them in CAD and then transfer them into SketchUp? I'm going to ask my Engineer the same question in a second here.

On the issue of Formed and Poured walls, the "Brick Ledge" where I will be setting my stone veneer on seems like an extra complicated detail. Essentially I would have to form two walls, one on top of the other with spreaders holding up the second wall? I am considering pouring them flat faced and then stacking CMU across the front to get my ledge but then that brings back the multiple set up/tear down issue.

If anyone knows a good reference on Poured Wall Forms I would be happy to look into that. I keep finding lots of good books on pouring slabs and footers but nothing showing complex things like angles, steps, and changing top elevations.

Thanks


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Anyone want to play "Name That Rock"?

So I have several tons of this rock on site. The original owner had it carted in from somewhere. I would like to reuse it, but I need to find a matching or semi-matching source.

Anyone want to take a stab at naming it? My first wild A$$ guess is Granitic Schist


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Formwork:

Forms for walls consist of a surface material, usually made up of panels, that give a flat surface for the concrete to mold to, and some method to keep the panels in place and resist the lateral pressure of the wet concrete.

Many homeowners think they can brace the panels from outside the walls. This might work for a wall of 1ft height. Much higher and it is almost sure that the forms will fail and a blow-out will occur. One should consider the magnitude of lateral force that wet concrete applies to the forms.

Wet concrete operates as a liquid. And for liquids, at any given depth, the side pressure is equal to the downward pressure. The weight of concrete seldom exceeds 150lb per cu ft. A cubic foot has 1728 cubic inches, so a cubic inch of concrete weighs approximately 0.087 lb. Thus a column of concrete 1”x1” x 24” would weigh 24 times 0.087 or 2.08 lb. Suppose you set braces along the form panels at 1ft spacing. Each brace point must resist the lateral force applied to a square foot. A square foot has 144 square inches, so 144 times 2.08 = 300 lb against each brace point where the depth of wet concrete is 2ft. Double the height of the wall pour to 4ft and the lateral pressure grows to 600 lb per brace point. Are you starting to see why homeowners run in to trouble?

Most modern walls forms use some type of “snap tie”. There are several different types. Some are made to work with a particular forming system, others are more generic in nature. Some are made of rods, others are flat strips of steel. They all go through the wall space and connect the equal but opposite pressure of both sides of the forms. Google “snap ties” to get a better idea of what they are and how they work. 

All snap ties require hardware to use and it isn’t practical to buy all that is needed for a one-time use. Look for what is available for rent in your area. 

There was no cheap rental in my area, so I substituted a replacement for the snap ties with materials available at hardware stores.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks for everybody's help and encouragement so far. Before we start breaking our arms patting ourselves on our backs I thought I would start a running total of Stats:

Hours of Hand Digging: 8
Tools Broken: 1 (Wooden Handle Digging Bar)
Dollars Spent: $1400
Dollars DIY Saved : approx $300
Little red ants who can't take a joke: 10,000

I think I am going to formalize this into a spreadsheet. After I'm gone it might serve as a warning to others :wink:


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

There is another possible treatment of this slope, one that would be cheaper than tall retaining walls but needing a much greater labor on your part.

If solid bedrock is near the surface, a series of short 16 inch walls could be constructed across the slope for a terraced look. Walls of this height could be done 3.5 inches wide and locked to the bedrock by drilling the rock and inserting rebar. Thus no additional footing would be required. The walls could be constructed in sections that could be completed in a day’s time. The limited amount of concrete needed for each section would something that could be mixed by hand, saving the cost of pumping. The forms would be easy and cheap to build and you would need only enough forms to do a section rather than all the walls. The flats above each wall would only be 3 to 4 feet wide; not wide enough for most uses, but wide enough to plant and maintain.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

I like it. I'll post a photo of the "bedrock" I got into today. Its this PA Sandstone junk. It looks nice and solid until you brush away all the sand in the crevices and then it starts to disintegrate.

Monday I may set up on it with my pressure washer and see how much loose stuff I can wash away. Figure I'll set a tarp right under it to catch all the slurry down to a pit and then trash pump it to the front yard where I have my spoils pile.

Good news is its Angle Of Repose is way high and that means lighter walls :thumbup:


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

So, what does this project have going for it? Against? Thought I might tally a quick list of Pros and Cons.

Assets ands Pros:

Free Labor: As long as our stupid laborer doesn't get his self crushed by a falling boulder (which he almost did today) he's here 24 hours a day.

Finished product will be amazing: There won't be many like it in SW PA. I'll be able to sell tickets if I want

Reasonably well funded: My wife makes the dough.:thumbup:





Cons and Liabilities: 

Useless Laborer: Our Laborer is all old and out of shape.

Site access is terrible!: Best we can do is mini-ex and Toro Dingos

Other projects are waiting: The roof needs to be replaced this Fall, and I don't mean the shingles, I mean THE ROOF!  (I told you it was a Money Pit)

Time schedule is tight: Due to my wife's career situation I need to wrap this in a couple of months, outside.

I'll post more as I think of them


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Picture of the "Bedrock". Its a lousy photo, exposure is all wrong. I'll put up another as soon as I get one.









Problem with this stuff, I think even after its cleaned and dried
its still Pp Brown. 

Anyone who has ever driven the Interstates 79 or 76 around Pittsburgh can attest to the embankment cuts. Not exactly the most picturesque ledgestone in the world. Why couldn't we get something from Maine or Upstate NY (Watkins Glen area). Now thats some pretty banks


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Finished a SketchUp File of the various retaining wall options available. Just block and concrete versions right now. I'll add Landscape Timbers with Deadmen, H-pile Walls and a few others as the need arises.

They are from Left to Right: Basic Concrete Masonry Unit (CMU) Wall, Concrete Gravity Wall, Cantilever, Counterforte, Buttressed and Tie-back. Most of the Concrete walls can be adapted to block (CMU)









None are to scale and all would need to be reinforced per an Engineer to be useful.

As usual if you see any of my SU files you are interested in (none are very good) PM me.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Just a quick aside about SketchUp

For those who may not know, SketchUp is a free 3D modeling program offered by Google. It is very useful for many types of DIY projects and you can learn the basics in about a day.

They also have what they call their "Warehouse" inside the program. You can go on the Web and download any model that someone has built and posted for free. Plug it into your Model and use it. Watch now as I quickly grab someones model and plug it into mine









It took me longer to open the Image in GIMP and resize it to upload here than it did to put it in my model.


It is not free for Commercial Use (i.e. If you own a Remodeling Company and you are selling your designs) but for DIY warriors it is a blessing. I built my kitchen 3 times in SU before I ever ordered any cabinets or picked up a hammer.

Want to learn to cut roof rafters without pulling out the circular saw? Build 'em in SU. Just a lot of fun IMHO :thumbup:


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

CplDevilDog said:


> Little red ants who can't take a joke: 10,000


Too funny..... :laughing:

......thanks for the laugh, I needed that!

DM


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

I looked at your photos of the exposed rock. It looks to be arranged as thin horizontal layers that have been fractured. That could be a bit worrisome for wall construction.

I suspect the near surface rock is fractured because water from the hill bleeds into the space between rock layers. Freezing then causes the rock to fracture. You can remove all the loose rock and set your footer on solid rock. But once the solid rock is then closer to the surface, will it not then be subject to the same forces that fractured the above rock? Freezing and fracturing below the footer would be very destructive to the new wall.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

pls8xx said:


> I suspect the near surface rock is fractured because water from the hill bleeds into the space between rock layers. Freezing then causes the rock to fracture. You can remove all the loose rock and set your footer on solid rock. But once the solid rock is then closer to the surface, will it not then be subject to the same forces that fractured the above rock?


My thoughts exactly. I suspect surface water from WAY up the slope (Check Google Earth or Google Maps Earth View to see my behind me neghbors yard) become sub-surface water and then when it hit the back of the old wall it was no longer below the frostline, Freeze, crack.

One of the Engineers that visited the site before he dumped me mentioned a "Bench and Key" system of drains. Essentially negative sloping ground above some of the walls to a perf drain










I may go as far as adding a Curtain Drain at the very top wall to collect some of my neighbor's sub-surface water. Essentially a deep trench of gravel with perf pipe at the bottom. Drain both ends around the edges of the property line. "Water checks in, but it don't check out" :laughing:


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Also looking into Soil Stabilizing High Pressure Grouts. AKA Jet Grouting

Essentially "Micro-cement" blown into the cracks that hardens and holds. Don't know much about it yet, other than they use it in tunnel construction a lot to stop up weeping cracks.

Need to look into cost and methods of application.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

> "Water checks in, but it don't check out"


Sorry, for those of you under 40, its a joke reference to the old Roach Motel brand of roach traps. Their slug line was "Roaches check in, but they don't check out" :wheelchair:


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

Worked on some more hand excavation yesterday. Just getting some basic terraces in right now, nothing deep enough to preclude just putting up new drystack walls. Makes it easier to move around the site.

Running into more and more of this PA sh*tstone. I decided I'd hose it off for a minute or two just to see if I could "separate the men from the boys" structurally speaking.

I figured if I could wash away some of the smaller pieces, I would be left with something approaching a usable ledge. The stuff disintegrates! I was making gravel! :furious:

I'll try and post some pics and video later today.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm thinking our PA ledge opens up a few new possiblities while closing a couple of doors as well.

My original plan of a counterforte wall or cantilever styles are probably right out the door. I can't see any sense excavating back into ledge in order to pour a wide footer which I would then backfill with busted ledge? Seems like a no brainer :huh:

Even though our PA ledge is so ugly and fractured it does still have a very high Angle Of Repose. This should translate into thinner and lighter walls (A theory supported by the garbage construction of the previous walls which were essentially just fieldstone stood up on knife edge, stacked one atop the other and leaning against the ledge)

Structural Gunnite or Shotcrete. This is what I'm looking into this morning while I have my coffee. Some method of draining it must be available. Essentially a waterproof backing with a weeping face but I have not seen that yet.

More to come. Have a good day all


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

YouTube Video up! Posted my first YouTube Video (Everybody say ooooh, aaaaah)

Search under "PA sandstone retaining walls"

Boy, its true what they say about video adding pounds! Like 30! :whistling2: 

That's one serious ham hock!


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

*Maybe its me....?*

Ok I have to RANT a little! :furious:

I'm really starting to feel like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. The scene where she comes back from her failed shopping trip on Rodeo Dr and starts crying to the Hotel Manager about not being able to buy a dress.

"No, its not OK. Its not . See, I have all this money and no one would help me  and I, and I have to buy a dress."

What is it with Contractors! I know its a big project but d***, its doable and I'm paying so why no return phone calls.

I figure its one of two things:

a) They only want the "low hanging fruit" and we're not even talking about fruit on this job.

b) Because I want to keep costs under control by doing some of the grunt work they figure I'm what is known is a "Grinder". Someone who is not willing to pay until every last ounce of profit has been squeezed out of the job. I know I like to get a good deal but not at the expense of someone's livelihood

At this point I am ready to just start advertising in the local paper. 

*CONTRACTORS: If you like MONEY call me 555-GET-PAID* :thumbup:


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Sorry you feel the way you do.

I think you have the problem figured out, most contractors could very well be seeing warning signs on the project. In their defense, a contractor really carries no obligation to bid projects they're neither interested in nor think they profit at.

After a short amount of time, most any semi-intelligent contractor will develop a "defense" system to protect themselves from jobs that they feel they will lose their shirt on. You can't really blame them, as it really is a career, where many times DIY is predominantly a hobby. Whatever the case, it may be that you're sending some negative vibes to the contractor pool that you're dealing with. Hopefully you can find the right contractor that will be interested in the project.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

No need to be sorry. I'm not mad at anyone in particular or even any of the dozens of "free" estimate providers that have stopped out. Just seems a strange business model to me.

Morning Phone Call:

Me: _Does your company do excavating?_
Contractor: _Yes_
Me: _Would you come look at this job?_
Contractor: _Sure_
Me: _It's a big job and I need an estimate of how much it will be for doing x and y._
Contractor: _No problem all of our estimates are free._
Me: _It really is a big job and I need a written estimate. I am getting a couple of bids, so I can pay you to do the bid, that's not a problem._
Contractor: _No, all our bids are free._


Site Visit:

Contractor: _Phew, boy! You weren't kidding when you said it was a big job!_
Me:_ I know, right._
Contractor: _Well, what you need to do is AB and C. X, Y and Z are the last things you need to do_
Me: _I know AB and C are being handled by me and another guy._
Contractor:_ Your AB and C should look like this._
Me: _Yeah, we looked into that and its not going to work on this job because of LM and N._
Contractor: _I really think you'd be better of doing AB and C my way_
Me: _Well, how about LM and N won't that be a problem?_
Contractor: _Nah_
Me: _So, you said on the phone that you do X and Y. I need X and Y done right after I do W and before I do Z. Can you guys do that?_
Contractor: _Sure_
Me: _Can you get me written estimate over?_
Contractor: _Sure_
Me: _OK, I'll wait for you to call me with that_

2 Weeks later

Me: _Are you still interested? Hello? Can you call me back?_


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## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

Been there! Before I retired, I handled civil projects that paid contractors between 2 and 3 million dollars a year. Not that much of it was concrete work.

You would think all I would have to do was pick up a phone and contractors would come running. For flat work, that was mostly true. But getting anything vertical done was a pain. Note, I was not bidding this work out, I was ready to pay whatever the contractor wanted. I paid $800 a yard for concrete on one job. And I took all responsibility for the work being done in the right location and to the right grade. If a mistake was made, I paid to have it fixed. Hell, if the contractor would just send the workers out to the site I would run the job for him. The only thing he had to guard against was a blow out. Still I would sometimes go 3 months begging for someone to do the job.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

So, I've uncovered enough ledgestone and bedrock to make heavy gravity walls unnecessary.

The trick is going to be tying all of the crumbly ledge together. If you check my YouTube video you can see how fractured this stuff is.

My plan at his point is to drill 24" deep horizontal holes into the ledge and grout rebar into them. Sort of a poor-man's soil nail. Then I'll spray a thin coat of concrete over the whole mess and a waterproof coating on top of that. By adding a Curtain Drain at the top of the slope and a WP layer on top of the crumbly stuff it should stay dry and crumble free.

The walls are going to be a shotcrete gabion hybrid.

I'll set 4' lengths of #5 bar 16" OC sunk 24" into the ledge and tie it all together with horizontal bar and galvanized hardware cloth.









Back fill it with sandstone rubble pulled off the site (saves hauling it away). As I backfill I'll use a Mortar Sprayer tool to blow SBC or some sort of fiber reinforced cement into the sandstone rubble to tie it and its gabion cage together.

Once the structural portion is done. I'll try my hand at faux rock artistry.


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## CplDevilDog (Mar 18, 2009)

For anyone who was following my story and was wondering "did he died?"....

Just a quick update. I've been educating myself on Shotcrete and gunite and trying to find rental equipment, ready-mix suppliers and consultants. 

My hope was to find someone willing to Shotcrete all of my bars and baskets but I've pretty much given up on finding anyone to do even the smallest piece of the project and guess it will be DIY all the way.

If anyone knows a Shotcrete, Gunite or Swimming Pool contractor in the mid-atlantic states that wouldn't mind training a new nozzleman for a few days, have them PM me. I have family in MD and NC so those would be good from a "place to stay" perspective. If you know anyone in SW PA or Ohio that would work also.

Next week I will be finishing the excavation and starting some rebar nails to stabilize the area.


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