# raised concrete slab porch



## tootie (May 17, 2012)

my concrete guy is replacing the slab on my raised porch. he has said he will put some kind of expansion joint between house and slab and saw cuts along the porch. The original slab was poured right up to the bricks and had no saw cuts. 
My question is, does it need saw cuts or the expansion joint? I guess the joint makes sense, but I can not recall ever seeing saw cuts on any raised slab porch


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## tootie (May 17, 2012)

I also didn't mention that when I asked about how my concrete would be cured he told me I could just spray it with water once the following day and nothing more would be required. Which is why I am asking question now. I will be keeping my new concrete watered continuously for a week or more. any advice on a good wetting method would be appreciated also.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Yes to using expansion joint and saw cutting.
Saw cutting will relieve the pad from stress,as for curing,have him spray "Cure and Seal" on it if you want to keep it wet you can use an old blanket soaked with water.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Ravenworks said:


> Yes to using expansion joint and saw cutting.
> Saw cutting will relieve the pad from stress,as for curing,have him spray "Cure and Seal" on it if you want to keep it wet you can use an old blanket soaked with water.


I agree 100%........:thumbsup:

When it comes to wet-curing with water, it's really "easier said than done", especially with most people's hectic lives in today's day & age. "Getting the slab wet" does nothing, the reality is that the slab needs to stay completely saturated for a few days minimum. If it is allowed to dry out for even a few minutes, there's no gain by applying water again. To complicate things even more, to cure with water optimally, you have to be careful with water temps. Too cold of water on a warm concrete substrate can lead to "thermal shock", which has the potential to create even more negative issues. Long story short, a curing compound is generally the most feasible approach........


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## tootie (May 17, 2012)

If I use cure and seal would i have to strip it off later to stain the concrete? i had been thinking running a water hose suspended afew iches with misting heads. i wasn't sure when two start or if the concrete would been firm enough that i wouldnt have to suspend the hose. i didn't think of temp. but it hasn't gotten very hot here yet, could be high 80's by the time they pour though


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

tootie said:


> If I use cure and seal would i have to strip it off later to stain the concrete? i had been thinking running a water hose suspended afew iches with misting heads. i wasn't sure when two start or if the concrete would been firm enough that i wouldnt have to suspend the hose. i didn't think of temp. but it hasn't gotten very hot here yet, could be high 80's by the time they pour though


 
I too have never seen a porch with control joints sawn.

Your idea of water curing is a good one,and you can start the day after it's poured,as to your question of a curing compound,you cannot stain the concrete if you use curing compound or a sealer.


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## tootie (May 17, 2012)

Canarywood1 said:


> I too have never seen a porch with control joints sawn.
> 
> Your idea of water curing is a good one,and you can start the day after it's poured,as to your question of a curing compound,you cannot stain the concrete if you use curing compound or a sealer.


Does anyone know why you didn't need or don't see the the saw cuts in the old raised slab porches, but now it seems, at least according to all I've asked, it is a must?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

tootie said:


> If I use cure and seal would i have to strip it off later to stain the concrete? i had been thinking running a water hose suspended afew iches with misting heads. i wasn't sure when two start or if the concrete would been firm enough that i wouldnt have to suspend the hose. i didn't think of temp. but it hasn't gotten very hot here yet, could be high 80's by the time they pour though


Yes, you would need to strip all the sealer in it's entirety if you desire to use an etching stain at a later point. If you really want the color, I'd recommend using a colored concrete right away.



tootie said:


> Does anyone know why you didn't need or don't see the the saw cuts in the old raised slab porches, but now it seems, at least according to all I've asked, it is a must?


If the porch was large enough (you're certainly was/is) it always would have benefited from control joints, either sawn or tooled in. I can only speculate as to why they weren't done years ago: concrete saws were rare and slow without diamond blades, folks were less picky about random cracking the contractors believed wet curing would reduce shrinkage enough that joints weren't necessary,etc......


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

tootie said:


> Does anyone know why you didn't need or don't see the the saw cuts in the old raised slab porches, but now it seems, at least according to all I've asked, it is a must?


 

It's not really a must, and i personally think control joints,sawn or hand tooled on a porch just do not look good,a much better solution would be to use a shrinkage compensating cement as opposed to type 1 portland cement,it's readily available all over the country,but i guess not to many contractors know it even exists,it would save a lot of work hand tooling and sawing joints.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Canarywood1 said:


> a much better solution would be to use a shrinkage compensating cement as opposed to type 1 portland cement.


We know about it,do you know how much more that mix is a yard?
When they did my drive the guys wanted to broom it,I said no way I want it hand floated with a swirl,they got paid for it.
The bottom line,if your finisher is good the job is pleasing to look at.
I second the idea of having the color added at the plant,but ask before hand some plants don't like adding it to their trucks.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> We know about it,do you know how much more that mix is a yard?
> When they did my drive the guys wanted to broom it,I said no way I want it hand floated with a swirl,they got paid for it.
> The bottom line,if your finisher is good the job is pleasing to look at.
> I second the idea of having the color added at the plant,but ask before hand some plants don't like adding it to their trucks.


 

No i don't know how much it is now,but you can inquire at your supplier.

As to adding color at the plant,it is very expensive because of how much more color is required to mix through the entire load,then when the truck returns to the yard a complete washout of the drum is required until no more color comes out,which can take quite a while to do and the customer is charged for truck and driver while this is being done.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Canarywood1 said:


> No i don't know how much it is now,but you can inquire at your supplier.
> 
> As to adding color at the plant,it is very expensive because of how much more color is required to mix through the entire load,then when the truck returns to the yard a complete washout of the drum is required until no more color comes out,which can take quite a while to do and the customer is charged for truck and driver while this is being done.


I think you are mixing up non shrink grout with concrete,I asked our engineer about it today and he laughed at me.
As for the color added at the plant,you get what you pay for, paying the truck time,at the most, would be $100 extra.
As I said before,some plants will do it and some won't.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> I think you are mixing up non shrink grout with concrete,I asked our engineer about it today and he laughed at me.
> As for the color added at the plant,you get what you pay for, paying the truck time,at the most, would be $100 extra.
> As I said before,some plants will do it and some won't.


 
All i can say is he must be a real idiot if he's never heard of it,and some engineer,hope i never have to be in a building he's worked on.

I worked for a redi-mix producer in the redi-mix industry for 35 years and we provided thousands of yards for water reservoir's and cooling towers over the years, it's pretty common and it's not new,i wonder where that guy went to school,i'll include a link you can print out for him,maybe he'll learn something.

http://www.ctscement.com/TypeK.asp


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Not all plants have Type III cement, or anything other than Type I & high-early for that matter, available in a silo at all times. As a matter of fact, I'd consider Type III to be a rarity in most of the country, especially in residential work. If I had to guess, I'd say that 99.95% of residential concrete poured in the US is simple Type I portland cement based. It's far cheaper and safer in the long run to cut/install control joints than it is to seek out a non-typical cement and process IMPO.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

jomama45 said:


> Not all plants have Type III cement, or anything other than Type I & high-early for that matter


Type III is Hi Early.

Most ready mix companies will be able to put in a shrinkage reducing admixture (ours is called Eclipse), instead of the special cement. Just make sure they have the air friendly version, some of those really mess with the air. You can have the exact same load and one will be fine, and for no reason the next load tests at 12% air entrainment. Even our chemical reps had a hard time figuring that one out.

And we WILL put color in, the drivers don't really like to because of the extra work involved (all pays the same, I say). I just b***h when I have to put lamp black in (powder color), because it gets everywhere.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Canarywood1 said:


> All i can say is he must be a real idiot if he's never heard of it,and some engineer,hope i never have to be in a building he's worked on.


Dude,now I am laughing because you're way over thinking this,it's a porch.
As for my engineer,I have total faith in him,the company I work for is one of the largest in Ohio we specialise in heavy industry,we are exclusive to the world's #1 steel maker.
I am not posting any names but with a little searching it isn't to hard to figure out who I'm talking about.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Mort said:


> Type III is Hi Early.
> 
> Most ready mix companies will be able to put in a shrinkage reducing admixture (ours is called Eclipse), instead of the special cement. Just make sure they have the air friendly version, some of those really mess with the air. You can have the exact same load and one will be fine, and for no reason the next load tests at 12% air entrainment. Even our chemical reps had a hard time figuring that one out.
> 
> And we WILL put color in, the drivers don't really like to because of the extra work involved (all pays the same, I say). I just b***h when I have to put lamp black in (powder color), because it gets everywhere.


 
Your right on the Hi Early,and we always used the type k cement because of the air problems using an admixture.

Your right about the lamp black,terrible stuff to handle,last time i used it was in the sidewalks at Sears Tower.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Ravenworks said:


> Dude,now I am laughing because you're way over thinking this,it's a porch.
> As for my engineer,I have total faith in him,the company I work for is one of the largest in Ohio we specialise in heavy industry,we are exclusive to the world's #1 steel maker.
> I am not posting any names but with a little searching it isn't to hard to figure out who I'm talking about.


 

Your the guy that asked for the information,i just supplied it.


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Canarywood1 said:


> Your right about the lamp black,terrible stuff to handle,last time i used it was in the sidewalks at Sears Tower.


That stuff is awful, and what makes it that much worse is that we aren't allowed to just toss the bag in because we had a problem years ago where the dissolvable bag didn't dissolve all the way, so it stuck out of the guy's exposed slab. Whoops. I actually prefer the red stuff because, since its usually used to cover electrical lines, you just toss the bag in and you're done.


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