# Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house



## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.

I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...

Went to other yard hydrants and they were all the same... no pressure, water, nothing...

Inside the house I have heard the pump come on and go off accordingly and have a very minimal decrease in pressure inside. Other then that nothing. (PS I could be wrong, my wife says NO change in water pressure inside, which I guess could be true since we have a pressure tank, not sure, seems like it is a bit less forceful when fully opened then usual to me...)

WTH could be wrong?

I have walked the water line for the yard hydrants and have found no sink holes, mud holes, etc... Nothing. Granted the ground is frozen now, I would assume I would still see some sort of sign of a major leak like this.

With that said... Why wouldn't i have ANY water pressure at the yard hydrant even with a leak?

Is my sub. pump going bad?

Where do I start? I cant afford to have a well pump guy out and it not be that and he charge me an arm and a leg for a visit. And vice versa for renting a back hoe and digging up my yard looking for a leak.

HELP, IDEAS NEEDED!!!!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.
> 
> I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...
> 
> ...


Is you pump building up and shutting off? Could the hydrants be frozen? I know some are "frost free' but, have head of them freezing.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Yes I believe the pump is shutting off. Normally it is rather loud for a minute or so and then shuts off.

No way they could all be frozen, one is inside my barn and out of the elements. The other two are outside, exposed but the one next to the horse trough has a plug in pipe warmer on it so it is not goign to freeze.

I am STUMPED!


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

Two things come to mind here: 1) You state that you have a "plug in pipe warmer" which I'm thinking is a heat tape. Have you checked to see if this heat tape/pipe warmer is actually working? AND--IF it is one of those with the little "tell-tale" light, don't go by the light, check to see if the tape is actually somewhat warm. 2) You also stated that the ground is frozen now. This leads me to believe you may have an "ice plug" somewhere in the line. This can happen where the pipe underground is closest to the surface and the dirt is wet. The wet dirt will actually carry the chill down lower than dry dirt and can cause what we call an "ice plug". Is there any connection which you might loosen to check for water flow going to the piping outside? I doubt you have pump/tank problems as you say you still have water in the home. Good Luck, David


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm guessing your frost line is 48" or more, and that the water line in the yard somewhere is less than the frost line.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Even if I had a "ice plug" it shouldnt stop the water from coming out one of the two spigots that are outside as they are on different ends of the supply line.

The water was working fine night before last and it hasnt been THAT cold for it to be a seriously "deep" freeze.

HELP!


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Even if I had a "ice plug" it shouldnt stop the water from coming out one of the two spigots that are outside as they are on different ends of the supply line.


Ayuh,... My guess is,... It's Frozen somewhere Before the line splits to the 3 different locations,..
It's got to be a Common line, Somewhere....


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

I understand where you're coming from, it sounds logical in theory. In practical terms I can't fathom why it would have froze all of a sudden when nothing has changed; it isnt THAT cold out; most of the line has been in ground for 10+ years and the PEX line I added was done 2 years ago. 

Would it freeze all of a sudden after 10 years of working fine? And if it froze why wouldnt it have froze the line coming into the house? I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there. That area is 8 feet below ground.

If it was busted wouldnt I see water/ some pressure at least when I turned it on? And if it was a giant leak, wouldnt I have a SINK HOLE after 48 hours of a non stop 23/gallon per minute well?

I understand that freezing makes sense logically but to me it just doesnt appear to be the culprit.

Anyone have any advice on exactly how common wells are set up as far as this is concerned? Is my previous assumption accurate?

HELP!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... My guess is,... It's Frozen somewhere Before the line splits to the 3 different locations,..
> It's got to be a Common line, Somewhere....


Bet your right!!!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Furthermore, the last time I did use the yard hydrant in my barn, which is the farthest away from the well, the water pressure all of a sudden took a dump and was at about 50% flow. I didnt think anything of it and just figured my wife had turned on the dishwasher or sink or tub and that loss of pressure was normal when this occurred because of the distance to the barn and the home from the well, the well is 20 yards from the house and 300 feet to the barn.

The loss of pressure like that would lead me to believe the well pump, or is that wrong of me to assume the pump?

It is just weird to me that it would be an ice plug in a section of pipe 8 feet below ground and that has been in place 10+ years. I would take the blame and say it was my new PEX pipe I laid 300 feet of 2 years ago, but the yard hydrant 10 feet from the well doesnt have water either... UGH!


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> I understand that freezing makes sense logically but to me it just doesnt appear to be the culprit. I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there.


Logic,+ Common Sense says it's Frozen...

We don't know/ can't see how your waterlines are run... 
Where is the branch split between the house,+ outbuildings/ hydrants,..??
Frost runs deeper in areas without snow cover...
How deep were the newest lines run at,..??
Are they under a driveway, or other non-snow covered areas,..??

If the line was Broken, the pump would run Continuously,... You said your's Isn't...


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> I understand where you're coming from, it sounds logical in theory. In practical terms I can't fathom why it would have froze all of a sudden when nothing has changed; it isnt THAT cold out; most of the line has been in ground for 10+ years and the PEX line I added was done 2 years ago.
> 
> Would it freeze all of a sudden after 10 years of working fine? And if it froze why wouldnt it have froze the line coming into the house? I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there. That area is 8 feet below ground.
> 
> ...


Some place it is T-ed off. Maybe it is colder this year. Maybe you drove over this spot more this year, driving the frost down.
We will never know on the net. If you can't work on it, the next thing will be live with it until spring. BTW, broke and froze are not the same thing.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Bondo said:


> Logic,+ Common Sense says it's Frozen...
> 
> We don't know/ can't see how your waterlines are run...
> Where is the branch split between the house,+ outbuildings/ hydrants,..??


Right outside the well housing (that black metal pipe that sticks out of the ground 2 feet)


Bondo said:


> Frost runs deeper in areas without snow cover...
> How deep were the newest lines run at,..??
> Are they under a driveway, or other non-snow covered areas,..??


There is only 1 section that is under snow about 10 feet, it is way out by the barn though (300 feet from well & 290 feet from first yard hydrant) The rest of the water line is not under snow pack.
We do drive over a section of the new PEX pipe I laid 2 years ago but it is pretty in frequent that we actually use it.



Bondo said:


> If the line was Broken, the pump would run Continuously,... You said your's Isn't...


This may be a lame question, but I assume that the pump running is when I hear that loud click and churn in my laundry room and that churn runs for a couple minutes and then a loud click and the churm stops. Is that accurate or is that only the pump to fill the pressure tank in my laundry room?

Lastly, I appreciate your patience with me


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> Furthermore, the last time I did use the yard hydrant in my barn, which is the farthest away from the well, the water pressure all of a sudden took a dump and was at about 50% flow. I didnt think anything of it and just figured my wife had turned on the dishwasher or sink or tub and that loss of pressure was normal when this occurred because of the distance to the barn and the home from the well, the well is 20 yards from the house and 300 feet to the barn.
> 
> The loss of pressure like that would lead me to believe the well pump, or is that wrong of me to assume the pump?
> 
> It is just weird to me that it would be an ice plug in a section of pipe 8 feet below ground and that has been in place 10+ years. I would take the blame and say it was my new PEX pipe I laid 300 feet of 2 years ago, but the yard hydrant 10 feet from the well doesnt have water either... UGH!


If you want to check the well/pump, take a short hose and a 5 gallon pail. At the sample tap on the pressure tank use a watch and see how much it is pumping. This will give you GPM. Then let the water run, as fast as it will, a half hour or so. Repeat the GPM test, ASAP. Then, this will tell you the system is doing.:thumbsup:


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> We do drive over a section of the new PEX pipe I laid 2 years ago but it is pretty in frequent that we actually use it.


And how Deep was it buried,..??


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

Unless you have frost free hydrants installed properly with sufficient drainage under them, my assumption (assumptions against any possibility should not be made) is that you have two (or 3) separately frozen hydrants.

You can have had a serious leak for months and not be able to see any evidence of it on the ground.

And PEX was a poor choice, 3/4" or 1" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe would have been much better. And if you really mean that the hydrants are black iron pipe instead og galvanized, they could be rusted shut. PEX is copper tubing size (CTS), the OD is maintained, and PE is iron pipe size (IPS), the ID is maintained (so you get more water).

So run a new PE line fed by a garden hose from the house on the ground to water the horses and install threaded sch 40 PVC unions to easily drain it after using it.


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

To the OP. Does your hydrant have something that looks like a plastic straw running down the side?? If so, although those are frost free, they have to be blown out with a compressor.

They make us do that to code now. (DEQ)


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

It is taped on the wrong side to see on the hydrant but, maybe you can see enough.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Bondo said:


> And how Deep was it buried,..??


I buried it to my chest, 4+ feet down.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Gary Slusser said:


> Unless you have frost free hydrants installed properly with sufficient drainage under them, my assumption (assumptions against any possibility should not be made) is that you have two (or 3) separately frozen hydrants.


I really TRIED to educate myself before I installed them and I put a crap load of 2-3 inch gravel, then 1-2 inch gravel, then 6-8 inches of sand underneath the hydrants and I got the 9 foot hydrants and only 2.5 feet is above ground, so they are WAY DOWN there.



Gary Slusser said:


> You can have had a serious leak for months and not be able to see any evidence of it on the ground.


By serious leak do you mean a outright POURING of water @ 23 gallon a minute? That is what our pump puts out at the yard hydrants, tested last fall. Right now I open them and NOTHING happens, not a drip, sound, nothing.



Gary Slusser said:


> And PEX was a poor choice, 3/4" or 1" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe would have been much better. And if you really mean that the hydrants are black iron pipe instead og galvanized, they could be rusted shut. PEX is copper tubing size (CTS), the OD is maintained, and PE is iron pipe size (IPS), the ID is maintained (so you get more water).


No I was referring to the actual well piping, not the yard hydrants, 2 of the three were new 2 years ago. the older one is old but works fine, until 2 nights ago.



Gary Slusser said:


> So run a new PE line fed by a garden hose from the house on the ground to water the horses and install threaded sch 40 PVC unions to easily drain it after using it.


That works for non-sub zero days, but when we are subzero, the water hose freezes before the water can get out the other end to create a flow. It is 300-350 yards.


I am just baffled, the damn thing was working GREAT on a daily basis and then all of a sudden... It isnt even that cold!!!!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> I buried it to my chest, 4+ feet down.


4 foot isn't much if you drive over it. If we have to go though a person's driveway we lay foam insulation over the line, then we fill it in. In the summer you could try that.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> 4 foot isn't much if you drive over it. If we have to go though a person's driveway we lay foam insulation over the line, then we fill it in. In the summer you could try that.


REALLY? I dont mean to act like I know up from down, but dayum!!!

When I was trenching the line I could see where the frost line had been and it was at 28 inches down. We live in HIGH DESERT, so the soil is sand with large rocks, the rockies  Dont get me started on driving fence posts, UGH!

And the line has been through 2 winters without issue, working on a daily basis to provide water to barn & horses via yard hydrants.

I guess I was hoping someone would say, man if 23 gallons a minute was flowing out under ground you'd have a sink hole after 2, three now, days of nonstop running, or my well pump would have broke by now.

I dont know where to start, I do NOT want to dig up my yard, $ is tight in these times and new materials to run a new run would be more then I could afford right now.

UGH!!!!!

PS - Any well pump experts on here? Are my previously assumptions accurate? Would I hear the heavy duty pump on all the time if I had a leak of 23/gallon a minute rushing into the ground?

What about the pressure when I open a yard hydrant, shouldn't I get SOMETHING out of it even with a leak/break in the line?

I guess I should run a damn garden hose to it from the house and see if I can get it to come out the other end....

This is frustrating to say the least.

THANKS ALL!


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> The loss of pressure like that would lead me to believe the well pump, or is that wrong of me to assume the pump?



Same pump for the house right? If you have pressure in the house then it isn't the pump.


My relatives in Pennsylvania have a 48" frost line. I have to believe it's deeper in Montana. When I do a casual google search I'm seeing 5 feet and 6 feet (probably depends on the part of the state).


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> REALLY? I dont mean to act like I know up from down, but dayum!!!
> 
> When I was trenching the line I could see where the frost line had been and it was at 28 inches down. We live in HIGH DESERT, so the soil is sand with large rocks, the rockies  Dont get me started on driving fence posts, UGH!
> 
> ...


Listen and see if your pump is running when no water is being drawn. If you drove over the frost line it is deeper.


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

pyper said:


> Same pump for the house right? If you have pressure in the house then it isn't the pump.
> 
> 
> My relatives in Pennsylvania have a 48" frost line. I have to believe it's deeper in Montana. When I do a casual google search I'm seeing 5 feet and 6 feet (probably depends on the part of the state).


Mine would pump the same in the house with a broken line outside but, I would have a lake by now.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

mntnvew said:


> Furthermore, the last time I did use the yard hydrant in my barn, which is the farthest away from the well, the water pressure all of a sudden took a dump and was at about 50% flow.


I'd be wondering about this..... crud in the line maybe? not freeze?
recent pex work....? is the pump cycling? listen for a while....

DM


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

DangerMouse said:


> I'd be wondering about this..... crud in the line maybe? not freeze?
> recent pex work....? is the pump cycling? listen for a while....
> 
> DM


Could be crude I guess... but it was working fine 3 nights ago now. No recent work on anything.

Pump is cycling in the house, it turns on and off as usual


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

chance of all three hydrants being frozen is pretty slim. Chance of the pipe that feeds the hydrants being frozen is more likely.


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

NHMaster said:


> chance of all three hydrants being frozen is pretty slim. Chance of the pipe that feeds the hydrants being frozen is more likely.


Yep, it is T-ed off someplace. That is were I would start.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

IIRC he said 1 of the 3 is working and the 2 that are not are on separate lines teed off the main line. You could look that up and let me know if I'm wrong.


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.
> 
> I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...
> 
> ...


The way I read it none are working. Am I missing something?


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> IIRC he said 1 of the 3 is working and the 2 that are not are on separate lines teed off the main line. You could look that up and let me know if I'm wrong.


I reposted the first post. What did I miss??


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

if your wells / press tank is not cycling with all off in house no leak. does your line to hydr start before or after press tank? one line with branch lines? where does it first go into the ground?


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

tpolk said:


> if your wells / press tank is not cycling with all off in house no leak. does your line to hydr start before or after press tank? one line with branch lines? where does it first go into the ground?


This is my assumption as I havent seen the area that the hydrants TEE from but it APPEARS that the hydrants are fed directly from the well and NOT from my homes pressure tank.

There is 1 line that comes into the house for water and it comes in and goes directly, through misc piping, to the pressure tank.

Is there any well set ups where as there is a different feeder for the non-house water?


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Furthermore... My well pump is acting completely normal as far as cycling and such. I only hear noise from the pumps junction box when it is cycling ON.

If it was pumping all the time, I would hear that right? I mean the pumps junction box is LOUD when it is churning (on cycle) so if it was pumping 23 gallons a minute out the pump would be on all the time right?

I am baffled and do not want to start digging up my yard


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

If it were me, I would get a tank to haul water until spring.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> If it were me, I would get a tank to haul water until spring.


I thought about this as I have a 75 gallon tank at my disposal but I have a few problems.

1. My house pressure tank is 100 gallon so it would almost fully drain it to fill the 75 gallon tank from my home garden spigot. Horse trough is 100 gallon and I have 2 of them to fill... I also need about 100 gallons in the barn for usage inside the barn. So that is a **** LOAD of water to haul

2. I live 20 miles from a town that I could find water, my neighbors are all gone for the winter and have their homes winterized, thus no water.


For the record, I would be hard up to NOT have a 4 way tee in the main line from the well to the house. Well to house is 2 of the 4 way and then I have yard hydrants that run off those on both sides, thus the other two of the 4 way.

With that said, why would only the two hydrants not be getting water but the main house is?????


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Are there any "check valves" or something else that could break and cause this? Like I mentioned earlier, the pressure loss was not IMMEDIATE but a slow down over a course of a few minutes, and that was at the farthest away hydrant.

PS - I am going to get a hose tonight and cut male end and put a female on the cut end so I can hook the hose directly to the yard hydrant closest to the house and then turn on water and run to barn and open yard hydrant there and see if i get water.... 

If I dont I think I can safely assume I have a leak underground, would you all concur with me on that assumption?

If I do get water, well then, IDKWTFTD!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> I thought about this as I have a 75 gallon tank at my disposal but I have a few problems.
> 
> 1. My house pressure tank is 100 gallon so it would almost fully drain it to fill the 75 gallon tank from my home garden spigot. Horse trough is 100 gallon and I have 2 of them to fill... I also need about 100 gallons in the barn for usage inside the barn. So that is a **** LOAD of water to haul
> 
> ...


If your well pumps 23 GPM what is the problem?


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Additionally, I keep going back to the pump because of the way the water pressure slowly decreased the night I last used the water. I had been using it for a while that night on and off, and then the last time I used it the pressure was lower then usual but still flowing, flowing enough to fill 2 7 gallon humidifier water tanks.

The next day I went out and turned on the hyrdant and nothing at all came out.

If it was a leak, why would I have the pressure still to fill the tanks but the next night NO pressure?

The decrease of flow, while still maintaining some flow, wouldn't that be indicative of the pump crapping out?

IDK, I realize I am grasping at straws and am going to have to do "something" i dont want to have to do.

Anyone in Montana have a 3 PT backhoe I can borrow for a weekend? I have a 80HP tractor but no backhoe for it! If it isn't one thing it's another!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

How are you watering your stock now???


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> If your well pumps 23 GPM what is the problem?


That is 23 GPM to the yard hydrants, inside the house the pressure at any of the spigots is MUCH less then that. For instance I filled a 5 gallon jug last night with the garden spigot on my house and it took 3 minutes to fill it. That isnt 23 gallon a minute output inside the house, only at the spigots that are not working


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> How are you watering your stock now???


They had full troughs from three nights ago. I put 10 gallons in last night and will do more tonight. The troughs are about 1/3 full now and 10 gallons dont make a dent. Just trying to keep then with something!


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Can I "reset" the pump to force it to come on? I was thinking I could stand at the hydrant closest to the house and have it OPEN and have wife trip the pump to have it come on and see if that produced any sort of output from the yard hydrant.

Is that information even worth a grain of salt thought???

My local pump company wants 250 bucks to come out and test the well, OUCH!!!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> Can I "reset" the pump to force it to come on? I was thinking I could stand at the hydrant closest to the house and have it OPEN and have wife trip the pump to have it come on and see if that produced any sort of output from the yard hydrant.
> 
> Is that information even worth a grain of salt thought???
> 
> My local pump company wants 250 bucks to come out and test the well, OUCH!!!


That is very high for a service call. How far would they have to come?? Why to do want to check the well??

Get prices on digging up the line. If you have house insurece, they will pay for it. Work with the contractor on the deducible.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

The pressure switch controls the pump on/off. 

If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees. 

When the pressure falls to the cut in setting of the switch, the points close in the switch and the pump starts, that reversing the flow from the tees back to the pressure tank and the pump delivers water to the hydrants, tank and house.

You should look at the plumbing going into the pressure tank and see if there is a check valve. If there is your hydrants could not get water before let alone now because the check valve would have prevented water from flowing backwards to the tee in the line from the well.

There may be a check valve in the line to the hydrant or each hydrant if more that none water line feeding all three.

You've provided a lot of conversation but little about the plumbing. And you're making assumptions. Your 100 gal pressure tank does not contain 100 gallons of usable water. Hooking up the hose to back feed the hydrants may add a water that will freeze in them. 

But if there is stones and dirt in the PEX you installed, maybe you could unblock it but, stones should not shut off all water flow like freezing would. 

I do not believe that a 1" water line with flow through it would freeze before filling a couple troughs with a new line laid on the ground and then drained and the garden hose I suggested being drained and put away. Two people, one to fill the troughs and one to shut off the outside faucet and uncouple the hose and line and you walking back with the line raised on a shoulder to drain it should be able to do it without the water freezing in the hose or line before you're done.

And it seems that you don't have any other viable choices.


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> The pressure switch controls the pump on/off.
> 
> If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees.
> 
> ...


Good post Gary.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

I had a hydrant set on the side between tank and well and when the pump is on your getting the full push of the pump if greater than the back feed from the tank.Once the press tank reaches limit cut off then your press tank backfeeds till pump kicks back in. gary be right and you could have a freeze at the beginnig of the hydrant supply and if they all branch from that feed no water. do what gary says for temp relief and good luck. might be a chk valve at start to hydrant i never had one letting pump do that but your well is so deep may be one there. can you research that?


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

A few points. 
One it isn't how cold it is it's how long it's been cold that usually makes the difference.
Second if the first hydrant has frozen it may be blocking water to the rest.
Third it is not unusual for the drainage of a hydrant to fail over time when the drainage stone gets infiltrated with dirt. 

You didn't mention if you have had a problem lifting the handle on any of the hydrants.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> A few points.
> One it isn't how cold it is it's how long it's been cold that usually makes the difference.
> Second if the first hydrant has frozen it may be blocking water to the rest.
> Third it is not unusual for the drainage of a hydrant to fail over time when the drainage stone gets infiltrated with dirt.
> ...


The handles on ALL the hydrants work without issue. They open close smoothly, they just dont have any pressure at all.

the 7-10 before this happened it didnt get below 25 degress.

The part that baffles me the most is the way that the pressure died down slowly and that it is effecting ALL the hydrants, one on north side of supply, 2 on south side.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Ok all, I was doing some further Googling and found that it MIGHT be a bad "foot valve". I wasn't sure what this was so I did a define: foot valve in google and got this:

*A type of check valve with a built-in strainer. Used at point of liquid intake to retain liquid in system, preventing loss of prime when liquid source is lower than pump.*

I also found it called a "clack valve".

Could this be my issue in your opinions?

The other person said it could be bad and only allowing water in when the pump is ON and not when it is off.

I am sure that the hydrants are fed directly from the well water line to the house, before the house. I looked around the laundry room where the pressure tank is and there is 1 line coming in with 2 large awg wires that go to the pump voltage box and a small square D box attached to the water line before it enters the pressure tank (there are some elbows and drainage points inbetween that box and the pressure tank but all of them are AFTER the square D gray box).

So thus the hydrants have to be fed by the main water line.

Anyone know how well's are set up in this regard? For instance, we've been using this yard hydrant daily for 2 years, since it was installed, without issue, and never once did the pump turn on in the house. With that said the hydrants had to be fed by some sort of pressurized flow. Where would that have come from if not the sub. pump???? We checked this out when we installed the line to make sure it wasnt leaking. I turned it on after installing it and just let it run for 20 minutes, the pump int he house NEVER came on at all. (wifey jogged my memory earlier this evening when I was VENTING about this).

Does this shed any more light on the situation. Dayum theifs at the drilling & well company I swear.

PS - I know you all mostly think of a clogged line, by ice or debris, but it is not jiving for me. The way it lost pressure slowly and not instantly, and the fact the house still has water....

Check valve, foot valve... If it was the pitless adapter then I wouldnt get ANY water. Is the same true of a bad foot valve?


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

If the pump is a submersible, you dont have a foot valve but you do have a check valve on the pump. If the hydrants are piped off the main feed line to the house there can not be another check valve at the tank because it would keep water from backing out to the hydrants. If you are getting normal pressure at the house the pump must be ok. You have a frozen or blocked line to the hydrants.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

unless you have a hidden pump then the pump to the house runs hydrants. period. sorry you didnt hear it running during initial test


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> Ok all, I was doing some further Googling and found that it MIGHT be a bad "foot valve". I wasn't sure what this was so I did a define: foot valve in google and got this:
> 
> *A type of check valve with a built-in strainer. Used at point of liquid intake to retain liquid in system, preventing loss of prime when liquid source is lower than pump.*
> 
> ...


Thieves at the well company??? I read on this forum from about a year ago that YOU hooked the hydrants up!!!! A 23 GPM water well at the hydrant that is over 200 foot away is NOT a bad well. Stop your whining and start digging.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

that was helpful


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

If you still have water in the house the pump and associated equipment is working. 

Is it possible you have an anti back flow preventer in the line to the hydrants that has failed? 

Could you have another water source feeding the hydrants, a second well?

If the check valve were bad you would pump pressure up and the water would then bleed back into the well.


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## Gary Slusser (Sep 16, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> If you still have water in the house the pump and associated equipment is working.
> 
> Is it possible you have an anti back flow preventer in the line to the hydrants that has failed?
> 
> ...


That anti backflow preventer would be a single or dual check valve meaning that water can only flow one way through it - to the hydrants but not back toward the well or house, which is how it should have been plumbed.

He keeps saying the pump in the house; you're right, unless he has a hidden pump, and he wouldn't know that if it was hidden .... he has a submersible pump in the well. And unless he listens at the well, you usually can't hear a submersible pump run, especially in a 200' well a couple hundred feet from the house. So who knows what he's hearing...He doesn't want to hear about blockage or freeze up or digging. And going on with a lot of extra but useless info is allowing the problem to continue and if it is freeze up, to freeze more of the line until it breaks maybe or breaks fittings.

The lesson here is to not plumb any water line off the main between the well and the pressure tank; always plumb after the pressure tank regardless of the type of pump used or how much 'extra' pipe or trench it takes.

And add 100% more gravel under and around a frost free hydrant than you think you need; the deeper the better. Sand is not a good choice. I used at least 12" and a 5 gal bucket with 1/8" holes drilled every 3/4 to 1" all over the bottom and up the sides to the top of the bucket with the hydrant bottom about the middle of the bucket. I covered the bucket and gravel around it (like 3"-5") with heavy plastic like softener salt bags so dirt could never get in or wash down into the gravel. And I was down below the frost line plus. Yeah, I was scared of callbacks in this type situation but I never had a problem either.

It doesn't matter how long the hydrants were used over the last 2 yrs or 7 yrs etc. etc.. It is what it is now. And that's all that counts or a troubleshooter needs to hear. 

A foot valve is a check valve that is used on jet pumps, not submersible pumps. That's because subs have the check valve in/on their OUTlet and jets it is on their INlet.


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

He also doesn't seem to understand that it is not how cold it is but how long it's been cold that determines the depth of the freeze. With all of the hydrants stopping at the same time would indicate that the water is stopped at or near the first hydrant or has stopped from a seperate supply.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> That anti backflow preventer would be a single or dual check valve meaning that water can only flow one way through it - to the hydrants but not back toward the well or house, which is how it should have been plumbed.
> 
> He keeps saying the pump in the house; you're right, unless he has a hidden pump, and he wouldn't know that if it was hidden .... he has a submersible pump in the well. And unless he listens at the well, you usually can't hear a submersible pump run, especially in a 200' well a couple hundred feet from the house. So who knows what he's hearing...He doesn't want to hear about blockage or freeze up or digging. And going on with a lot of extra but useless info is allowing the problem to continue and if it is freeze up, to freeze more of the line until it breaks maybe or breaks fittings.
> 
> ...



Hurray..... We agree on something ! :thumbsup:

This has gone on long enough. Time to hire a back hoe and start digging


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

Yep, time to dig. His home owner's insurance will pay for this. He just has to play his card's right.


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## High Gear (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm no plumber and I've only put a couple of hydrants in.

Could you not unscrew the guts and if it won't lift out it would confirm that its frozen at the bottom of the hydrant?

http://www.wcmind.com/woodford/Yard_Hydrant_Pages/model-y34.html

I'm siding with the idea that it wasn't draining quickly enough.

I have 75' of hose hooked to each and it'll siphon them out dry with the hose end sprayer attached and turned off.

I think I'd dig up 1 hydrant first before committing to a backhoe $$


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

High Gear said:


> I'm no plumber and I've only put a couple of hydrants in.
> 
> Could you not unscrew the guts and if it won't lift out it would confirm that its frozen at the bottom of the hydrant?
> 
> ...


If it wasn't draining fast enough and froze he would not be able to lift the handles because the stems would be frozen in place. The most likely scenario would be a frozen line or a back flow preventer that has failed. It would most likely be near the first hydrant to shut them all off at the same time.


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## High Gear (Nov 30, 2009)

Duh of course , I'm going to have to go back to drinking more than 1 cup of 

coffee a day , get more sleep or somethin :sleep1:


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

*do you*

by chance have any hoses attached to any of these hydrants?? Sure your little kid didnt shut off a valve in the basement or elsewhere? Do you hear the pump or box humming inside the house when the tanks are filling in the summer?

Putting a short hose to first hydrant and using last one may be your only option for now. take hose off and shut off handle all the way on both ends if that works. if that works least you know its inbetween the well and this first hydrant.

most systems like this brings water into house and pressure tank and then back out to hydrants and there is a shutoff valve in basement.

Is whoever put this system in still around to KNOW how it was done??


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

hayewe farm said:


> He also doesn't seem to understand that it is not how cold it is but how long it's been cold that determines the depth of the freeze. With all of the hydrants stopping at the same time would indicate that the water is stopped at or near the first hydrant or has stopped from a seperate supply.


I understand completely that it is how long it has been cold and not the current temps.

With that said, Like I have been saying, it hadn't been _that_ cold.

Will a pipe freeze 10 feet in the ground when it hasnt been _that_ cold for _that_ long?

I ask because the location of the pipe that is feeding the hydrants is 10 feet in the ground and has no driving on it, nothing of those sorts at all.

I am not trying to be an ass or anything like that, I am simply trying to think of any other possibilities.

Thanks all.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> Thieves at the well company??? I read on this forum from about a year ago that YOU hooked the hydrants up!!!! A 23 GPM water well at the hydrant that is over 200 foot away is NOT a bad well. Stop your whining and start digging.


So what that I hooked up the hydrants? Is that really relevant, especially since I stated that from the get go.

*shrugs*


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

4just1don said:


> by chance have any hoses attached to any of these hydrants??


No, I had to originally replace a hydrant because a hose was left on and I didnt know that it couldnt drain w/hose attached to it.



4just1don said:


> Sure your little kid didnt shut off a valve in the basement or elsewhere?


Yep I am sure. There is only pipe that goes in/out of my utility room, the one to/from the pump.



4just1don said:


> Do you hear the pump or box humming inside the house when the tanks are filling in the summer?


I hear the pump humming now whenever the pressure tank gets below a certain psi. It runs for a minute and shuts off. It doesn't appear to be running more then usual at all.



4just1don said:


> Is whoever put this system in still around to KNOW how it was done??


No, the house was built by the previous owner in 1992.

Thank you for your constructive discussion and ideas.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Anyone know what the symptoms of a FAILING back flow preventer would be?


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> So what that I hooked up the hydrants? Is that really relevant, especially since I stated that from the get go.
> 
> *shrugs*


Then why call the drilling company "thieves"??

How is is their fault?


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> Then why call the drilling company "thieves"??
> 
> How is is their fault?


I was referring to them charging me 250 just to drive to my house. That didnt include any monies for any service they would have to do after I explained the problem to them.

That to me, seems like thievery. I could probably understand to some degree if they included some actual, basic, tests in that fee but they don't.

I live 20 miles out of town, that isn't THAT damn far!!

PS - I realize that my statement could be construed to be generalize towards all well companies but I didn't intend it that way, I know there are decent ones out there, but the one where I live isn't cool!


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## user69544 (Dec 31, 2009)

mntnvew said:


> I was referring to them charging me 250 just to drive to my house. That didnt include any monies for any service they would have to do after I explained the problem to them.
> 
> That to me, seems like thievery. I could probably understand to some degree if they included some actual, basic, tests in that fee but they don't.
> 
> ...


Did they come to your house?? What did they say??

I understood you just talked to them. I too think $250 for a service call is high.


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## mntnvew (Mar 14, 2008)

Driller1 said:


> Did they come to your house?? What did they say??
> 
> I understood you just talked to them. I too think $250 for a service call is high.


No they havent, I am waiting till I have the 250 to get them out, lol


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## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

One thing you can try. Open the hydrants, connect a hose from the house to the farthest hydrant you can reach and turn the water on. If you get water out of all the hydrants (you may have to turn them off as water comes out) that will indicate that the stoppage is between the first hydrant and the main line or source. It should at the very least indicate which part of the line is open. In a "T" type connection a back flow preventer is usually installed to prevent ground water from being siphoned back into the potable water if the line breaks. As they get corroded they can become more and more difficult to open fully.

The reason I made the comment about how long it's been cold is more important than how low the temperature has been is that the longer it is below freezing the lower the frost line. Even 20 degrees for a month can cause it to go deep. I did miss that all the lines are 10 feet down however.


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

It the "T" isnt too far from the house and in direct line so its straight thru to the hydrant line,,,can you take elbow or pipe off here as it enters house and 'push' rod or smaller hose thru. ?? if its froze there,, running warmest water possible thru there you can thru the inside hose/tubing will thaw it in a hurry, while you keep pushing it forward. It may even punch a sticky backflow valve open. If that was mine and there is a faulty backflow valve in there I would run whole line inside basement ,,,put replacement valve inside basment for access and send water out there(with a shut of valve),manuel,


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