# sherwin williams Paints?



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

#1, When going with a dark color like that I would have had the primer tinted to 50% of the color your going for.
#2, I would have also used a 1/2 Nap roller.
And yes that does not look like a pro painting job. First thing the ceiling should have been finished first then paint the wall. The way it is now your going to have to go back and use a stain blocking primer and repaint the ceiling.
There's to many starts and stops, no rolling from top to bottom once the paint was on the wall. 
Looks like someone just went up and down in straight lines .


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Classic case of not keeping a "wet edge." Once you start rolling a wall, well, you gotta hustle. Any stoppages and you are left with "holidays", "hat-banding", and lap marks, all of which seem to be in your picture. Emerald is a high quality paint but does have a bit of a learning curve to it. Some dark bases cannot be mixed in SuperPaint. I don't know the chemistry of why that is so, but, it is indeed true.

Bright colors are always problematic when it comes to coverage. Lots of colorant has to be added to the base to get that bright color at the expense of solids in the paint. Joe has some solid advice about the primer. Tinting it would give you a fighting chance at better coverage. At this point, you just need to tighten up your technique and get another coat on the wall.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Orange is basically Red and Yellow which are the two worst colors for coverage.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

So we called an all stop on the project till I get home on the 5th.

Going to lean toward operator error, But for $70 a gallon (before 25%coupon) you would think you could pop the top and throw it on.

For the record they used 3/8 nap on the primer and 1/4 on top coat (wanted nice and smooth). So when I go back to do my coat, should I just use the 3/8 nap?

also I'll take the advise on touching up the ceiling with the stain covering primer.

Thanks for the help.


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

for this color s/w recommends a gray tinted primer:yes: .you will notice a small p on the color chip,that will tell what shade of gray.at this point I think I would cut the ceiling let dry .then cut again and roll with a 1/2 inch Purdy white dove cover.i can say I don't know if the emerald paint trumps the need for a gray primer ,but I never had a problem when use the p primer system from s/w .to make matters worst a 1/4 cover has no place for rolling walls. imho:thumbsup:


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Good info and ideas here, thanks.

I'll do the ceiling and then use the 1/2 roller.
The 1/4 was another suggestion from the salesman.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

1/4" nap was a HUGE part of the problem. In over 30 years of painting, I can count on one hand how many times I used 1/4" nap to paint drywall/plaster. You really got to load that roller up with paint. Make sure you saturate your cover with paint before applying paint to the wall. Then, when removing it from your paint tray, well, it should ALMOST be dripping with paint. Don't push, let the roller do the work. Firm, yet gentle up and down technique is best. If you push down on your roller cage, that's when you get lines in your paint finish.

Also, hopefully the salesman sold you a high quality Wooster or Purdy brush. Nothing more frustrating in life than cutting in with one of those stiff, black-bristled $1.99 brushes.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

1/4 doesn't hold enough paint to do entire walls.


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

Basically what happened to you was this. Sheen + a difficult color. You have to be smooth with a roller to pull it off. Better left to a pro.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

747 said:


> Basically what happened to you was this. Sheen + a difficult color. You have to be smooth with a roller to pull it off. Better left to a pro.



Maybe so, but I thought that was the purpose of the forum DIY?

I'll get it.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

You are correct it is a DIY forum but some jobs are difficult and hard to do long distance. Here is the way I would do it and there will others who disagree (although I don't know why.)
First prime over everything (first debate) including the ceiling. The walls should be primed gray as stated. The reason I say prime it all is because of the streaking. Paint is thicker in some places than others, primer will give you a uniform base. Prime the ceiling because of where the wall paint is on it. Prime it white. I say prime the entire ceiling because I think you will need to paint the entire ceiling (second debate.) The reason I say this because of the wall color if you spot prime and try to match the ceiling paint I feel it will really stand out. Especially if it has been awhile since the ceiling was painted
As stated get a quality brush, since you are dealing with Sherwin Williams get a Purdy while there. Also while there get a good roller cover I really like the Purdy Colossus (probably 3rd debate) in 1/2" nap. Use the search feature on the forum and others for cutting in ceiling. Also check out you tube for cutting in. Go out to your garage with some cardboard or suitable substrate and practice cutting in.
While you are at Sherwin Williams get enough Eminence ceiling paint to do your ceiling (4th debate) Just do not fall for the no primer. This is under normal conditions, not for the color you have around the edges.
Idaho painters has some videos on you tube for rolling walls that really show a good way to do it. I would suggest watching them.
I hope this helps you if you have any questions please ask.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Come on guys no debates. Is Jeff sick?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Ok, I'll through in. 

I think we all agree that the coverage issues are being caused primarily by application errors. 
Tool's advice is sound... If you plan on continuing the errors. 

Lets think about why a top quality paint doesn't cover in three coats when it should cover in two. It goes back to what I've said before about one application not equaling one coat. This is a good example of the most common painting problem that I see, thin application. In an effort to get a 'smooth' job the paint was applied with a 1/4 nap roller and spread way too thin. The three 'coats' we are seeing in the pic likely equals about one coat in terms of film thickness. 

Same thing with touching up the ceiling. You could touch that dark orange up 5 times with a thin coat of ceiling paint and not hide it, hence the need for primer. Where as 2-3 full coats of a decent ceiling paint would cover it. 

As far as smoothness of the finished product, a much smoother film is produce when paint is applied at or near its recommended thickness and allowed to 'flow' out. Spreading too thin, and overworking the paint in an attempt at getting a 'smooth' job is self defeating. 

The hard part is explaining how to do this. Really, a full coat can be applied with any size nap roller. It's just a little easier with a larger nap because you don't have to dip as often and uniform spreading can be archived more easily. 
Typically, I would use a 3/8 roller and dip it three times for every two 8 foot runs. Roll it out only enough to distribute the paint evenly, not worrying too much about the 'nappiness' because if the paint is thick enough it will flow together and almost eliminate the nap. This needs to be done quickly, and ideally the last stroke of the roller should go in the same direction (down). 

The main problem with this method is that if the coat is not spread evenly, runs will occur as the paint flows out. 

Really hard to explain this method without a demonstration. I've been tinkering with application for years in an effort to get a full coat on in one application. It is not easy, but the results are worth it. 

If you want to know how your application compares to what constitutes a full coat of paint, ask for a wet film thickness gauge from Sherwin Williams. They are usually free, and easy to use with simple direction. You can take readings of your wet coat and compare to the recommended wet film thickness for the paint your using (4mil for Emerald)
You can't see the reading too well in the pic, but that's the idea.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

First debate, Is there anyone that thinks I might be able to get away without priming the walls over? I understand that it would be best, but If I come back with a nice generous coating, do I have a chance in it coming out ok?

Second debate, The paint on the ceiling is maybe a week old. I was hoping to spot prime and paint. We will be coming back with crown molding.

Thanks again for all the help and ideas on this problem. I'm use to painting boats, chipping, buffing rust, enrusting, priming and painting. But this is a new beast for me, its my home.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Boa, we have all been in your shoes, believe me! I don't think you have to prime again, but, depending on coverage, you may have to put two more coats on the walls. It will depend on just how fussy you or your wife are about how it looks. The thing is, by the time you get furniture in there and put pics, etc. up on the walls, well, any shortcomings will likely be hidden. If the ceiling is freshly coated, I would definitely do some spot touch ups and call it a day.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Gymschu said:


> . At this point, you just need to tighten up your technique and get another coat on the wall.














































I will second this. Primer would have helped at the beginning, but where it's at now I believe a good coat would finish the job.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Ok, I'll through in.
> 
> I think we all agree that the coverage issues are being caused primarily by application errors.
> Tool's advice is sound... If you plan on continuing the errors.
> ...


Really don't understand this statement, after reading both posts I thought we were pretty well in agreement except for the primer.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

boarider said:


> First debate, Is there anyone that thinks I might be able to get away without priming the walls over? I understand that it would be best, but If I come back with a nice generous coating, do I have a chance in it coming out ok?
> 
> Second debate, The paint on the ceiling is maybe a week old. I was hoping to spot prime and paint. We will be coming back with crown molding.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help and ideas on this problem. I'm use to painting boats, chipping, buffing rust, enrusting, priming and painting. But this is a new beast for me, its my home.


Yes I think you may get by with one coat on the walls.
If your crown hides where the wall paint is on the ceiling your good to go.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

ToolSeeker said:


> Really don't understand this statement, after reading both posts I thought we were pretty well in agreement except for the primer.



Yea, I should have worded that differently. 
What I was referring too as 'errors' was the thin application. With a color like that, they could paint it two or three more times in the same manner (1/4" nap, rolled out thin) and it still not look right. In that case, I felt your suggestion to prime grey would be the way to go because a you said, its pretty un-even in the pics and another thin coat or two isn't likely to fix that totally. 

To me, the pics look about like one full coat, it just took three applications to get it on.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Well, this is practically a clinic of painting errors.

First, I'm assuming what they mean by SuperPaint "doesn't work well" with this color is that technically SuperPaint probably doesn't come in the base required. IIRC SW calls this base "Color Accents", not SuperPaint.

jmays explained most of the technical details. 1/4" nap is ridiculous. There was no need for Emerald, but it is fine. Personally I use 1 full load of either a 3/8" or 1/2" roller for 1 8 foot section. Of course we are overlapping, so it's kind of a moot point - hard to tell if we're doing the exact same thing, but I tend to get about 320 sf per gallon, so as long as it's spread evenly, it's the coverage that determines film thickness.

If you are using crown molding, why is the top even being cut in? It looks bad up there, but I can't understand why they're even trying.

This should have had a gray shade of color primer underneath it. At this point I wouldn't bother any more. Just get someone in there who knows how to roll paint on and you might get it covered nicely in 1 more coat with a relatively opaque paint (although there is probably no such thing as opaque that comes in this color orange.)

If smoothness is truly a high priority, then use a 3/8" nap (not 1/2") and a paint such as Cashmere - it has levelers designed into it to reduce nap texture and create a flatter, smoother surface. I can't tell you if it will come in this color orange. Frankly, I've never painted anything in this color orange.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

boarider said:


> So she hires a handyman to help.


By the way, I just wanted to comment on this as well. It's very, very easy for us to sit here in this forum and say "aha - that's your problem. Hire a real pro next time."

But the facts are these. There are handymen who are excellent painters. They are the exception rather than the rule, because in general handymen tend to be... how should I say it?.... lower on the aesthetic scale than most homeowners would like. At the risk of insulting someone, I would put it gently by saying they are "salt of the earth", beer drinking kind of guys.

Now I was (or sometimes still am) a handyman myself, so obviously I don't think there's anything wrong with a handyman who does his homework and is competent with the skills he tries to sell.

Having said that, there are some truly crappy "professional" painters, or painting companies, as well. But the odds are, you are going to find more skill in a painting company than a generic handyman.

The bottom line is it's doesn't matter what the website is, where you found the guy, what his experience level is. All that matters is his skill and knowledge and reliability and integrity. If the guy flipping burgers could do this on the side, so be it. If the CEO living next door could do it, so be it. I wouldn't care. But your biggest task as a homeowner is doing your homework so that you find a quality person or crew to do the work.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

boarider said:


> Going to lean toward operator error, But for $70 a gallon (before 25%coupon) you would think you could pop the top and throw it on.


Not true. In fact this is not true as a general principle. You might think intuitively that the more something costs, the easier it is to use. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes the exact opposite is true. Go out and spend $300,000 on a racing car and see if it's easier to drive than your Camry.

Some of the more expensive tools and materials do certain things very well, but that does not necessarily mean they are easy for the inexperienced to use. An example is a very fast drying paint might be a quality a painter would like for some particular application, but that can also make it very difficult for a newbie to work with.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Jeff, I'd have to agree with you on the handyman (you get what you pay for). But if your a married man then you should understand when a women sets her mind to something and your not there to physically stop them, they are going to do it. She had good intentions. I had busted up my ribs on a motorcycle before leaving for work so she was trying to get it knocked out before I got back. Seems like it hurt more than helped.
As far as the cutting in, it might be a few weeks before we get to the crown molding, so its just something to get us by till then.
And your "Frankly, I've never painted anything in this color orange" That's kinda what we were shooting for.

I really do appreciate all the help and pointers you guys have gave me and I'll be using them when I get home tomorrow. I'm pretty I can make it livable .


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

boarider said:


> Jeff, I'd have to agree with you on the handyman (you get what you pay for).


Wasn't exactly what I was saying - you can pay a lot for crappy painting too 



boarider said:


> your "Frankly, I've never painted anything in this color orange" That's kinda what we were shooting for.


I meant that since I haven't painted that kind of orange, I don't really know if SuperPaint or Cashmere can be tinted to that color.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Just for the record and an update, I was able to cover the walls with one coat using 3/8 nap roller. The ceiling I was able to touch up the spots with one coat to hold us over till the crown molding.

What is better to patch nail holes and small gaps in molding, drywall mud or caulking? 

Thanks again for all the help.


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## nismo972 (Sep 23, 2013)

Personally I would use caulking...latex.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yea, caulk for any cracks/gaps. You can use mud for nail holes, but its not ideal. A good spackle like Dap crack shot works better. Over fill the holes a little and sand flush. The holes will disappear after painting. Caulk can be used for nail holes too, but its even less ideal than mud because it shrinks and leaves a divot where the hole was. Course, on crown it's not that noticeable, but still looks nicer if the holes are filled flush. 

Glad it worked out for you.


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