# Opinions on these posts...



## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

*post pictures*

trying to post pictures...


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)




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## Robpo (Mar 30, 2014)

I like it open. Maybe a small book shelf. I like the wall planking. I had the same stuff in the house my x got. I put my book shelf on a wall.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

I was hoping to do a built in bookshelf of a similar nature on the wall perpendicular to the posts, but if I can't remove them both, I may wrap it around to the side as well. 

Really hoping I can remove them without issues; it's such a funky placement. They aren't very decorative looking, and really look more like framing that was left undone and just covered up with paint. But who knows...


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## curtd (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't like those 2 white vertical posts. Personally i feel they have to be removed because i like the open concept and they disturb me


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

We really can't tell much from that photo---

what is above that beam? Attic? second floor?

The beam is to small to be of much use---it looks more like a decorative trim ,perhaps used to hide the scar left when a wall was removed.

More info needed---and ,yes, you need someone on site if assess the structure.


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## garlicbreath (Jun 25, 2012)

Get an engineer in there and figure out a way to remove them.

Sent from my Motorola MicroTAC 9800X


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

Ariadne said:


> What are your thoughts?


They're a compromise.

Getting rid of the need for columns and fully open the space would cost more money than the previous owner was willing to spend.



> If they are load bearing...


99.875% chance they are.



> I would consider removing one beam and building a bookshelf between the wall and remaining post.


Another compromise.
Build the bookcase in a way that *incorporates* the column.
---

I'd still suggest an engineer inspect what was done to be CERTAIN that what was done in their compromise didn't compromise anything else. In particular I'd be concerned about the HVAC ducts that were cut out and probably a few electrical outlets.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

I think it is pretty obvious that there once was a wall there which someone had removed. If you look carefully, you can tell there was a pass-through or something at the one end. 
I'm guessing that if it was possible and/or easy, whoever did this would have removed the posts at the same time.


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## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Many people like "open concept" but buildings like this thing called support. I doubt the span you're showing was built to be self-supporting 30-50 years ago.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

They are obstructing the area, You are going to need a bigger beam to remove them both. 

Have you thought of moving them farther apart, and widening the opening. And shelving on both ends.

ED


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

curtd said:


> I don't like those 2 white vertical posts. Personally i feel they have to be removed because i like the open concept and they disturb me


Same here. It's not a deal breaker on the house, per say, but definitely a negative.



oh'mike said:


> We really can't tell much from that photo---
> 
> what is above that beam? Attic? second floor?
> 
> ...


An attic, I believe. Single story ranch, couple decades old. I have been trying to figure out how to get the blue prints to the house, but so far, no luck.



garlicbreath said:


> Get an engineer in there and figure out a way to remove them.
> 
> Sent from my Motorola MicroTAC 9800X


If we do buy the house, that will be my intention. I feel like they gotta go, but safely!!!



TarheelTerp said:


> They're a compromise.
> 
> Getting rid of the need for columns and fully open the space would cost more money than the previous owner was willing to spend.
> 
> ...


That's an alternative I was considering. Building a book case between one column and the wall, and possibly removing the second column. Of course, if I'm going to all that work; it may just be better to pull them both out and put a better support beam in. That can be done, right? How big of a beam would it need?

And interesting that you mentioned the ductwork; the house was unlisted for two months and then relisted, saying new ductwork and HVAC had been done and septic as well. Definitely not going into this with rose colored glasses...



Blondesense said:


> I think it is pretty obvious that there once was a wall there which someone had removed. If you look carefully, you can tell there was a pass-through or something at the one end.
> I'm guessing that if it was possible and/or easy, whoever did this would have removed the posts at the same time.


I have noticed that the side where the couch is positioned had some of those 60's era decorative spindles removed. The posts do look structural, but there are some weird design choices out there too. Some people also like to take short (cheap) cuts, and may have thought leaving the posts was good enough. There is also some weird metal flashing or something at the other side, looking towards the front door. Can't figure out what that is...



IslandGuy said:


> Many people like "open concept" but buildings like this thing called support. I doubt the span you're showing was built to be self-supporting 30-50 years ago.


That is something I'm wondering. There is a fire place a few feet behind it that also looks structurally important, though I can't get up to the attic to check the trusses. (Eight months prego; probably not the best idea for me!)



de-nagorg said:


> They are obstructing the area, You are going to need a bigger beam to remove them both.
> 
> Have you thought of moving them farther apart, and widening the opening. And shelving on both ends.
> 
> ED


That was something I thought about, and may do if I can't remove them completely. I guess I would need a consultation to see how far apart they could be safely moved. I just think they look so awful; bookcases and space may make it more tolerable, but opened would be so nice...I actually like the idea of a bigger beam, and putting up faux beams elsewhere.

Thanks for all the comments, guys!


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

It is almost always possible to remove a structural element like a post or two from a house. The only question is how much is it going to cost to remove the posts. I assume you are going to have a professional inspection before you put an offer in on the house. You may want to hire a local contractor with experience in structural work, possibly a structural engineer, or an architect to evaluate what needs to be done to remove the posts, and to estimate how much it will cost. Then you can make an offer of X - cost to renovate.

There is simply no way anyone on an internet chat forum, which is what this is, can tell you what size beam you would need if you remove the columns, and how much it would cost to do the work. For that kind of information, you need a hands on inspection by a professional with structural knowledge.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> It is almost always possible to remove a structural element like a post or two from a house. The only question is how much is it going to cost to remove the posts. I assume you are going to have a professional inspection before you put an offer in on the house. You may want to hire a local contractor with experience in structural work, possibly a structural engineer, or an architect to evaluate what needs to be done to remove the posts, and to estimate how much it will cost. Then you can make an offer of X - cost to renovate.
> 
> There is simply no way anyone on an internet chat forum, which is what this is, can tell you what size beam you would need if you remove the columns, and how much it would cost to do the work. For that kind of information, you need a hands on inspection by a professional with structural knowledge.


Adding a bit to this one, you COULD go to a table that would tell you what size beam you need to span that distance. But you would only have part of the solution....because there is currently a load on the existing that is being divided over the two ends and the two intervening posts. So you need to consider what happens when you take that ENTIRE load and put half on each end of the span. Unhappy ending if the beam holds just fine......but one end goes through your floor because one of the remaining columns was not enough to support. Go with the good advice to hire appropriate professionals to spec things out. Ron


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Did you take a photo of the attic? The age of the house suggests the possibility that there are full spam roof trusses----in that case the 'beam' is just decorative--

What does the roof structure look like?


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

We have not actually been to see the house yet; hopefully this week. Definitely will take y'alls advice about consulting a pro before doing anything, and will talk to my agent about inspectors/engineers.

The listing says it got a new roof this year as well. What is a spam roof truss? Does that mean the beam may only be decorative but the posts are not? (Obviously no one here can tell me for sure; just enjoying the speculation.)


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

spam roof. probably a typo. should be span. 

Which means the trusses span fully across the entire space in the attic. 

ED


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Ahhh, that explains why google was no help, lol!

This is the only shot of the roof I have right now. 










Would a span roof mean it's more_ likely_ to be aesthetic than functional?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Look up 'roof truss' or 'web truss'----

That house has a hip roof---I doubt if it has trusses---carpenter built (stick built) is most likely---

There are ways to add a beam inside the attic to support the ceiling--

The house looks nice--I hope it works out for you---


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Thanks Mike!


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

Ariadne said:


> Definitely will take y'alls advice about consulting a pro before doing anything...


One more time: The safe assumption is that if the previous owners could have installed a support beam instead of using columns -- at anything close to practical cost for the effect-- they would have done exactly that rather than compromising the "open plan" scheme with columns.

Going back behind them and their work NOW will cost even more.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

TarheelTerp said:


> One more time: The safe assumption is that if the previous owners could have installed a support beam instead of using columns -- at anything close to practical cost for the effect-- they would have done exactly that rather than compromising the "open plan" scheme with columns.
> 
> Going back behind them and their work NOW will cost even more.


I appreciate your insight.

If it were you, and this was the only property in your price range that met all your criteria, would you make yourself live with it, or consult someone to possibly change a feature you did not like that may also turn off future potential buyers?


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

Ariadne said:


> If it were you, and this was the only property in your price range that met all your criteria, would you make yourself live with it...


Whaddaya mean "live with it" ??

Unless you intend to conduct ballroom dancing there you shouldn't need an uninterrupted floor in order to gain the value of the light and air removing (most of) the wall allows for.

Everyone else will arrange their furniture and utilize the columns to make the functional groupings (LR vs DR etc) that most homes will still want/need to have even without those walls.



> ...possibly change a feature you did not like that may also turn off future potential buyers?


Meh. Life is all about compromise.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

I may not be ballroom dancing in there, but my kids might. 

Clearly, you would leave the posts be. Your opinion on the aesthetics of the situation have been noted and filed. Thanks for your contribution.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

As for me I still think that the columns are blocking the area too much. 

It is all about the "Benjamins" though. It is up to the current owner to decide if they want to spend em, or save em. 

So after you get an appraisal as to how many it costs and decide what you want to do. I am still interested to know what became of this. 
Edit: I almost forgot to add that looks like a great place to settle and raise your growing family. Congratulations on the soon to be new addition.


ED


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Thank you 

I will be sure to update how it all turns out.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i would get rid of them. you will like the place more, and it will add value.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah.... I'd come up with a plan to get rid of those posts.......... and that yellow wall surrounding the fire place too.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Fix'n it said:


> i would get rid of them. you will like the place more, and it will add value.


I agree 



Maintenance 6 said:


> Yeah.... I'd come up with a plan to get rid of those posts.......... and that yellow wall surrounding the fire place too.


Unfortunately, the yellow wall IS the fireplace; they just painted the brick. There is a sunroom directly behind it too.


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## blur1221 (May 13, 2014)

you could do knee walls off the left and right sides with bookshelves and then put nice decorative caps on the posts. would still keep it open but make it more focal.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

blur1221 said:


> you could do knee walls off the left and right sides with bookshelves and then put nice decorative caps on the posts. would still keep it open but make it more focal.


If it's too costly to remove them, that's likely what I would do. Hopefully, they are just decorative and we can knock them out on our own, or at least get a header to replace them. My husband has two requirements for our house; a garage and large, open spaces. Can't argue with him on that! We've been living in a 600 sq ft house with two toddlers for the past year, and expecting our third. Gimme some floor space!!!!


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## blur1221 (May 13, 2014)

Ariadne said:


> If it's too costly to remove them, that's likely what I would do. Hopefully, they are just decorative and we can knock them out on our own, or at least get a header to replace them. My husband has two requirements for our house; a garage and large, open spaces. Can't argue with him on that! We've been living in a 600 sq ft house with two toddlers for the past year, and expecting our third. Gimme some floor space!!!!


maybe something that looks similar to this. see how the poles have a nice looking cap on them, makes it look much much nicer.

http://mitrecontracting.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54f8e2c43883301156ff45c8d970c-popup


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

That's a solution I could live with


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

For now.....live in it.....after about 6 months the 'don't like' list is going to be a lot longer....


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

I also think if you put down one flooring throughout, lose the paneling and paint it all one color, those posts might almost disappear by themselves. 
IMHO, that separates the areas more than the posts.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

ddawg16 said:


> For now.....live in it.....after about 6 months the 'don't like' list is going to be a lot longer....


So I fear, but that's the nature of a DIY'er! lol

In truth, the kitchen is smaller than I prefer, but is tolerable, and I have some ideas to help it feel bigger. The bathrooms also have tile halfway up the walls that I'm hoping to cover with pvc material beadboard. I'm sure there will be more changes I'll want to make, but so far the posts are the only thing I _vehemently_ dislike. 



Blondesense said:


> I also think if you put down one flooring throughout, lose the paneling and paint it all one color, those posts might almost disappear by themselves.
> IMHO, that separates the areas more than the posts.


I agree; but my husband wants carpet and I prefer hardwood. I suggested we could do wood flooring with really large rugs. :laughing: I'll probably just paint over the paneling, and the trim. Brown trim...:shakeshead:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Look up 'roof truss' or 'web truss'----
> 
> That house has a hip roof---I doubt if it has trusses---carpenter built (stick built) is most likely---
> 
> ...


If it were mine the post would go. I agree with Mike, the support beam can be from above the ceiling instead of under the ceiling. It would be tough to get a beam that large up in the attic but it is doable. The ends of the beam would be supported on existing walls and would for sure need to be supported all the way to the ground.

Looking at the front elevation, it looks like the right side of the house is on a conventional foundation, see the vents. The left side of the house is close to the ground so it is possible it is on a slab on that end but not necessarily. If the living area is on a slab that could be some problems supporting the ends of the beam if you decided to go that way.

Unless the foundation people build a ground girder under that weight bearing wall, (if that area is on a slab) that concrete would have to be reinforced to hold the pressure of the end supports of the beam if you decide to install one. If that area is on a conventional foundation it would be a lot easier and less expensive to support the ends of the beam.

We have a stick built ranch style home (not saying your's is stick built). We took the wall between the living area and kitchen out, as you are wanting to do. I supported the ceilings from above with a beam as suggested here. We did luck out because the walls which support the ends of the beam are supported all the way to the ground. We are on a conventional foundation.

Congratulations on the new addition to your family.

Added note, if you decide to not remove the posts, there are ways to make that area a lot more attractive with columns, I will see if I can find a picture or two to show you what I am talking about.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

You can do a search on column divide between living area and kitchen and hit images and you can see many examples of how you could rework that area and for less money IMHO. Here are a few examples of how this area could be addressed, just to give you an idea,


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

BigJim said:


> If it were mine the post would go. I agree with Mike, the support beam can be from above the ceiling instead of under the ceiling. It would be tough to get a beam that large up in the attic but it is doable. The ends of the beam would be supported on existing walls and would for sure need to be supported all the way to the ground.
> 
> Looking at the front elevation, it looks like the right side of the house is on a conventional foundation, see the vents. The left side of the house is close to the ground so it is possible it is on a slab on that end but not necessarily. If the living area is on a slab that could be some problems supporting the ends of the beam if you decided to go that way.
> 
> ...


Lots of good information, Big Jim; thank you!

I believe I saw a crawlspace door on the back of the house, so I don't *think* it's a slab foundation. (Bear with me as I'm still familiarizing myself with the terminology here.) If it is a hip roof, could a beam still be run through the attic? 



BigJim said:


> You can do a search on column divide between living area and kitchen and hit images and you can see many examples of how you could rework that area and for less money IMHO. Here are a few examples of how this area could be addressed, just to give you an idea,


Those images are what I have in mind for option #2, if total removal isn't possible or affordable, but I would try my darndest to find a way to widen the space between them, which seems like it would be just as much effort as taking them out. Or am I misunderstanding the concept of bearing weight points?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

If it is all on a conventional foundation it will make it much easier and less expense to install a beam, be it over or under the ceiling joists. It still hasn't been determined if you have trusses or not. If you do have trusses you got it made, all you would have to do is take the columns out and open it up without a beam.

The hip roof has nothing to do with being able to have a beam over the ceiling joists, it only makes it harder to get the beam into the attic. Even with a gable roof it would still be a task to get the beam up there, but it is doable.

If you do go the route of a beam under or over, you will need an expert to spec out the size beam you would need.


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Well, we finally saw the house, and not that it matters, but the columns and beam above are metal.

I say it doesn't matter because the entire house was a money pit. I wasn't even mad; just impressed someone could let a house get into such bad shape. Truly misleading listing; should have a disclaimer on it, like "Handy Man Special!" or else come down in price about $50k...

Thanks for your advice, everyone!


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Glad that you kept us up to date on this. 
Saddened that it ain't what you need or want. 

As they say CAVEAT EMPTOR. 

Am happy to have helped you dream at least. 


Keep on keepin on, you will find your dream home somewhere. :thumbsup: :yes:



ED


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## Ariadne (May 9, 2014)

Thanks!

Hopefully something new pops up; else we may have to start looking at foreclosures...


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Ariadne said:


> just impressed someone could let a house get into such bad shape. Truly misleading listing!


thats nothing. i looked at houses that i was surprised that they were still standing.


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