# Basement Sofits - 2x2 or Metal framing



## ponch37300 (Nov 27, 2007)

The best way i have found to do soffits is to frame the bottom of the soffit out of 2x2 or 2x4 layed flat ant then use 3/4" plywood for the sides of the soffit attached at the top by nailing to a 2x2 or 2x4 nailed to the floor joists. It will give more strength than framing the sides out of 2x2's. 

As for your insulation if it were me i would remove the existing plastic and insulate the whole new wall and then put new plastic up.


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

You want to have 1 single continuous vapor barrier from floor to ceiling.


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

I generally just frame with 2"x4"s laid flat to maximize space. Ponch's idea with the plywood is also good........could get a bit pricey if you have a lot to do.


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks Guys ... All great suggestions.
I will have to rethink my Insulation situation ...
I have also noted that the 2x2x8 actually cost more then the 2x4x8 at my local HD ..... May be cheaper to do it this way as well.

Is it enough to slit the Vapour Barrier at different locations (to allow air transfer) and then insulate and use one VB floor to ceiling or is it best to remove all the existing VP??? Kind of a pain now that the walls are up ...


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## butlersprints (Nov 28, 2008)

Only other concern is it appears as though the plates on the floor are not treated.:no:


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## ponch37300 (Nov 27, 2007)

You should remove all of the old vapor barrier, it's just plastic so should be able to rip it off pretty easy. butlersprints pointed out something imporatant, anywhere you have wood touching concrete you should have used pressure treated wood. Concrete has moisture in it and it will eventually rot the non treated wood touching it, also if you get any water in there it will rot the non treated wood and could cause mold problems.


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

butlersprints said:


> Only other concern is it appears as though the plates on the floor are not treated.:no:


There appears to be a foam gasket underneath them so they are not required to be treated. That would be my read on it.

RE Vapor Barrier - I'd remove the whole thing if I were you. Won't be as hard as you think, I bet. 

I'd always be hesitant to use 2x4s with the "x4" side being the "visible" side. 2x4s like to twist a lot, and all that twisting will be highly visible with the "x 4" side facing the living space. I'm using metal framing for my soffits and personally (so far) I think it's way easier then using wood, and it comes 100% straight and true and the framing should stay that way forever. Can't say the same for wood.

EDIT If it helps I can take pics of my metal framed soffits and post em here.


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## ponch37300 (Nov 27, 2007)

good call on the foam gasket, after looking again you can kinda see the shadow from it and also there is a roll of it in the 3rd picture.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Don't forget that you'll need to sheetrock the inside of the storage space under the stairs now that you're finishing the basement...Requirement in the International Residential Code. Now would be the time to install any necessary nailers for rock attachment.

The best way to build soffits is to install 3/4" plywood against the studs the full height of the soffit. This takes care of the firestopping requirement (minimum 3/4" ply) and gives you something to fasten framing members to in one step. Otherwise you're faced with adding a good amount of blocking to effectively firestop the soffits. 

I like to build furdowns and soffits with metal studs. I rarely use them for wall framing however. I think they beat a 2x2 hands down for soffits...No cracking, no sagging. On soffits, a stud track can be screwed to the aforementioned plywood backer.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

I was interested in the existing wall insulation as I have just completed installing the same type, if not the same brand of insulation.
It comes in 100 ft.rolls has a steed band on the bottom for fastening to the wall. The top has an apron to swing up into the joist cavity.
The insulation is bonded to the vapor barrier. So DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE IT!
The insulation appears to be R12 and if R12 is placed between the studs it will give a R value of R24 which is good your climate (mine too!)
I would suggest that the vapor barrier would be perforated, rather than slashed. The vapor barrier is in fact supporting the insulation and slashing would weaken this!
To perforate, I would drive a bunch of screws through a plywood square, put some sort of handle on the back and then start punching.
Or perhaps you may have a machine gun on hand that you could use to shoot holes in it! :yes:


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Garasaki said:


> There appears to be a foam gasket underneath them so they are not required to be treated. That would be my read on it.
> 
> RE Vapor Barrier - I'd remove the whole thing if I were you. Won't be as hard as you think, I bet.
> 
> ...



Pictures and a quick DIY of installing the soffits with metal would be fantastic .. Thanks

Great updates, thanks guys .... As someone already pointed out the foam gasket is being used along all bottom plates. I think i am definitely swing towards metal soffits and perforating the existing vapor barrier. Although i jstill may just insulate the bottom half and leave the top alone ....


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

whirly said:


> Pictures and a quick DIY of installing the soffits with metal would be fantastic .. Thanks
> 
> Great updates, thanks guys .... As someone already pointed out the foam gasket is being used along all bottom plates. I think i am definitely swing towards metal soffits and perforating the existing vapor barrier. *Although i jstill may just insulate the bottom half and leave the top alone *....


 I think that it could be argued that it would be better to double up the insulation at the top, rather than just insulate the bottom.
I'm looking forward to reading other opinions!


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

I'll head down to the basement to take some pics tonight.

I would go ahead and insulate the entire wall too. I dont' think a half insulated wall would be effective, plus your not going to save a signifigant amount of time or money to do it all.

Believe me, I know that sometimes it's hard and you just wanna take the easy way out, but you only get one shot at doing this project, you might as well take your time and do the best you can. It'll be worth it in the long run.


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Well the top half is already insulated. My plans was to insulate and Vapor the bottom half and tuck tape the Vapor barriers together. This as opposed to perf'ing the top portion or trying to remove the barrier completely and starting over.

I am looking forward to those pics Garasaki !


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

Didn't make it down there last night - screwed my back up sunday moving a bunch of OSB around and took me 3 tries to do the dishes - layed on the couch the rest of the night after that :laughing:

Should be able to get er done tonight. I got some other stuff I need to photo document anyway so its not even an inconvience.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

whirly said:


> Well the top half is already insulated. My plans was to insulate and Vapor the bottom half and tuck tape the Vapor barriers together. This as opposed to perf'ing the top portion or trying to remove the barrier completely and starting over.
> 
> I am looking forward to those pics Garasaki !


 It was never established the R value of the existing insulation. At best its R12 and may only be R8.
Keeping in mind that the earth outside is a good insulator, it may be better to place a second course of insulation over what is already in place!
And not bother to insulate the bottom, just as the house builder has done!


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Current Insulation (Building Code in Ontario) is R12.
So your suggestion is to add a second layer of BAT from grade to frost line.
Perforate existing Vapor or remove completely ?


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

whirly said:


> Current Insulation (Building Code in Ontario) is R12.
> So your suggestion is to add a second layer of BAT from grade to frost line.
> Perforate existing Vapor or remove completely ?


 The vapor barrier cannot be removed! Its glued to the insulation! Perforation would be required!
Insulation would be placed on top, between the studs.
Then, a vapor barrier would be installed, from floor to ceiling!
Thats one way of doing it, but I would run R12 from floor to ceiling after perforating the existing vapor barrier.
Then install a new barrier from floor to ceiling!


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## Patssfan (Dec 10, 2008)

Hey guys, I'd like to chime in on this and also ask some advice. I am a new member. I'm doing my basement over, it's been a 3-4+ yr slow project. Slowly finishing the mechanicals on to electrical.

Here is my dilemma, I had central AC installed last yr. and decided to run AC downstairs so I added (2) 6" (supply/return lines) to the system. But now I've decided to install rigid because of the long lengths efficiency and turns to make this all work, plus mice problems. It seems I am going to have to tear one down soffit and extend it out because of the minimal spacing I have from existing water lines that limit my access to route 45 degree angled piping and or angled oval piping to the empty bays that I NEED to use and get to. I just want to keep this symetrical.

The challenge is that this soffit is built against my dividing beam, where my main sewer discharge pipe also runs.. across the room at a decending orientation (25ft legnth) where it then heads off to the old cellar section. I do not have enough room for a 2x4 support running the entire span of the soffit. Should I consider 2x2s or could I use 'L' brackets? to support the bottom 2x4s? There is no room for any kind of metal stud.

If anyone is interested, regarding insulating this basement, I choose double foil bats seam taped and used 2 coats of drylock on the walls before doing this. This was 7 yrs ago and havn't had any issues.

On this project, I've also used both metal and dimensional lumber for framing and soffits. I'd say they are both equal IMO


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

Ok here are my metal framing pics:

This is a soffit under my main duct runs. On one side, there is a beam and the opposite side will be a line of walls. The bottom of the soffit will align with the bottom of the beam.

Here is a closeup of the angle installed on the beam side:










Here is a full view of the soffited area, beam on one side, wall on the other. I have yet to install the furring strips across (from angle to angle), and on top of the furring strips will go a C channel, which will be supported from the wires you see dangling freely (at head height I might add) in these pics:



















Here are pictures of a similar soffit I've already completed construction of:

Again, beam on one side, wall on the other. Here is the beam side










Insulation stuffed between ductwork and furring strips to prevent vibration noise. The small wood cross members are there to give me something to attach the canlights too.




























Here is the wall side










One of the "ends"










And a closeup










So it's pretty easy. Installation goes like this:

Install the angle - just drill holes thru it, and attach to framing members with woods screws. Make sure it's level in all directions (that means across the width of the soffit as well, both angles will need to be level with each other). Easier then it sounds.

Install the wire supports to the ceiling - these are available at the borgs, or you could install hooks bought from a hardware store.

Cut the furring strips to length and install. These cut super easy with tin snips. Furring strips go purpendicular to the angles, sittign on top of the angle.

Cut the c channel (I had a hard time finding somewhere to buy this, FYI). I used a sawzall. PIA to cut. Lay the C channel on top of the furrign strips.

Attach furring strips to C channel with self tapping metal screws. This is easier then you'd think.

Run wire between the ceiling mounted supports and the C channel. Your done.

It's surprisingly strong - seriously I know it looks flimsy but I have grabbed it and pulled down as hard as I can and it simply dosent budge.


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

Here's an example of how the pro's do it - ~8 foot deep soffit (yes you can walk on this). Look closely and you'll see it's all wire, C channel, and furring strips.


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

*Update Pics*

More Basement Pictures ....


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

*More*

Two More ..... All walls are up.


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## Garasaki (Apr 14, 2008)

Looks very nice. How do you keep it so clean down there?!?!!?


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## jweiner (Dec 21, 2008)

Why was the original insulation only installed to the frost line? I understand the concept, but won't the finished walls still feel colder below where the insulation stops? Was this just for cost-containment purposes?


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

jweiner said:


> Why was the original insulation only installed to the frost line? I understand the concept, but won't the finished walls still feel colder below where the insulation stops? Was this just for cost-containment purposes?


 Its just to do with cost effectiveness! I live in the great lakes region and frost usually goes down about 2 feet into the earth. So insulating above ground level and 2' below is the minimum code requirement here! Nothing wrong with insulating further down, its just not required by the building code! ( in my area )


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## jweiner (Dec 21, 2008)

I live in Milwaukee, WI so I know what you are talking about. I would just worry that the finish walls will feel "colder" below the point where the insulation stops. Insulation is such a (relatively) cheap item. Since basements are generally colder in the first place, the cooler finished walls below the insulation might actually increase your overall heating costs over time.


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually all are correct, The Insulation is currently to Building Code which is to the frost line in Canada - 4Ft.

I plan on Insulating the remaining portion to the floor and tying the Vapor barriers together with Tuck tape.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

whirly said:


> Actually all are correct, The Insulation is currently to Building Code which is to the frost line in Canada - 4Ft.
> 
> I plan on Insulating the remaining portion to the floor and tying the Vapor barriers together with Tuck tape.


 And this is where you and I are at issue! 

In our country, you can never have too much insulation and once your walls are finished, it'll be too late to add more.
Budgetary constraints can be an issue. Perhaps postpone finishing certain sections, and then use the money for insulating the sections that you want to finish, first!


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Money is not really the issue, I would rather take another two years to finish, but do it right. Your suggestion would be to perforate the existing and insulate top to bottom again?


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## jweiner (Dec 21, 2008)

Well "doing it right" is a relative term since there are those that firmly believe that batt insulation has no place in a basement against an exterior wall, but rather that foam boards should be used against the foundation and then the studs placed against the foam boards. You do lose a bit of square footage with this method. I would absolutely insulate to the floor and redo the vapor barrier - yet even vapor barriers are questionable in this application. So many things to think about. Check out the following web site:

www.buildingscience.com and click on "information" and look at "understanding basements" and "understanding vapor barriers."

Happy holidays!


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

whirly said:


> Money is not really the issue, I would rather take another two years to finish, but do it right. Your suggestion would be to perforate the existing and insulate top to bottom again?


 Thats what I would do!


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## whirly (Dec 2, 2008)

Well then that's what i will do ...
This whole Insulation thing has really been driving me crazy.
To be honest I wish I had just removed it all prior to framing and used the foam board insulation, but too little to late.

FYI: It's pretty close to -20 here (with windchill) and the walls feel pretty warm to the touch on the uninsulated portion.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

jweiner said:


> Well "doing it right" is a relative term since there are those that firmly believe that batt insulation has no place in a basement against an exterior wall, but rather that foam boards should be used against the foundation and then the studs placed against the foam boards. You do lose a bit of square footage with this method. I would absolutely insulate to the floor and redo the vapor barrier - yet even vapor barriers are questionable in this application. So many things to think about. Check out the following web site:
> 
> www.buildingscience.com and click on "information" and look at "understanding basements" and "understanding vapor barriers."
> 
> Happy holidays!


 The manufacturers of the rolled insulation that we see in the photos, would likely take issue with this! Their product is designed for direct contact with the masonry! For direct contact, I prefer Roxul insulation as it has little moisture absorption.


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## jweiner (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm sure they would. It's just that if ever moisture develops in the wall cavity, those batts are going to act like sponges and lead to a big problem! In our basement, we actually used spray foam insulation between the studs that were up against the foundation.


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## kayaker40 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Best way to frame around ductwork is 2 x 2*

Best way to frame or box in duct work is the following

go to Home Depot and buy 8 foot lengths of 1/2 or 5/8 OSB plank - have the lumber staff cut it exactly 11 1/2 " in 4 sections leaving 4" left over for scrap - the cuts are lengthwise duhhh.

Now lay two 2 x 2's on floor and place this 8 foot x 11 1/2 on top and nail into the 2 x 2's all along the rails. No need for ladder, the OSB is really strong
and when you toescrew it to the underside of your floor joists along the ductwork it is unbelievably strong. Do the either side of the duct the same way, and then tie them together by cutting simple 2 x 2 pieces in a ladder format underside the beam. This is how pros do it on Real Renos and Homes on Holmes. Bailey steel is hideous for noise, it cuts your hands to ribbons and had ZERO structural strength against a wood beam. When you hang the box work above your head make sure the 2 x 2 face outwards for a nailing surface for drywall !!! it goes against intuition, but this is how PRO's do them !

Cheers and no cost, this is my 3rd basement in 10 years and I have called on the trades for close to 15 years so I know what I am talking about when I call on renovations that are in the millions.

Dave
Five Star Renovations & ManCaves Home Theatre


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## ThunderCAT (Jan 29, 2009)

Kayaker40...I'm new to the forum and have just started to frame out my unfinished basement. I like your method the best, and will most likely implement that into my soffit work. One question: when laddering the underside with 2x2's, how are they secured to the OSB/2x2 soffit facing?


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## kayaker40 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Duct Framing with 2 x2 clad to OSB Sheet*

Remember you are nailing the 2 x 2 alongside the bottom and top of the soffit OSB sheet - so at the bottom you can put screws through the osb into the 2 x 2 and across into the drywall one it is placed on top.

Piece of cake - have pics shoot email to me

Dave


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## ThunderCAT (Jan 29, 2009)

But how do I secure the 2 x 2 pieces in a ladder format? Toe-nail or toe-screw?


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## kayaker40 (Jan 26, 2009)

*2 x 2's box duct - use 3 " screws to fasten*

Use 3" construction zinc chromate robertson head screws to fasten through the 2 x 2 to the osb board to the inside 2 x 2 ladder pieces. If you have email Ill shoot you a video of how I did it.

Dave @ ManCave


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## ThunderCAT (Jan 29, 2009)

Can pictures be posted here?


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