# Identifying asbestos in my walls



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Actually looks like two layers of Gypsum board, not Rock Lathe. From all appearances, looking at the other wall that is Lathe for a Lathe & Plaster wall, is that this place I would say has already been rehabbed before. Only real danger, would be that you are breathing dust with Lead Paint in it, if the Gypsum was installed when paint still had Lead in it. Floor tiles, outside shingles, pipe & duct wrappings would have had asbestos.


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

no one can look at your pictures on the internet and tell you if there are microscopic fibers in the plaster.

you need to send it off to be tested (and quantified).


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The plaster itself could have asbestos in it. They sometimes used it for binder.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You can verify asbestos with a hobby microscope and a picture for comparison.


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> You can verify asbestos with a hobby microscope and a picture for comparison.


no. he still cant quantify and qualify it. some fibers are long, some are short, and the number of fibers matter.

it may indeed have asbestos in it and still not be dangerous.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

jcrack_corn said:


> no. he still cant quantify and qualify it. some fibers are long, some are short, and the number of fibers matter.
> 
> it may indeed have asbestos in it and still not be dangerous.


He asked if the wall had asbestos. I told him how he could do that himself. I read the post as someone who wanted to deal with the problem based on whether asbestos was there or not. 
Once asbestos is identified, do you treat the demo differently whether there's 10% or 40%?


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

It takes an electron microscope to identify asbestos fibers. I doubt he has one sitting around.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Maintenance 6 said:


> It takes an electron microscope to identify asbestos fibers. I doubt he has one sitting around.


 It does *not* take an electron microscope to identify asbestos. The particle size of asbestos in plaster varies in size from small to fairly large.
I've been identifying asbestos in building products, with a 900 power microscope, for 20+ years.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

I would never ever recommend somebody try to do their own asbestos testing with a hobby microscope. And yes, it is possible for gysum wallboard to contain asbestos. I personally worked on a project to abate drywall from 160 apartment units. Some drywall had it. Some didn't. All of the joint compound had it. Units were built mid 1960s.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Maintenance 6 said:


> I would never ever recommend somebody try to do their own asbestos testing with a hobby microscope.


Why not? What issue precludes taking a tiny amount of material and putting it on a slide?


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> It does *not* take an electron microscope to identify asbestos. The particle size of asbestos in plaster varies in size from small to fairly large.
> I've been identifying asbestos in building products, with a 900 power microscope, for 20+ years.


while it does not take and SEM, it does take at least a polarizing light microscope and the skill to use it.

a microscope that is 900x is probably garbage from china. My professional scopes generally have 10x 20x 40x primary with a 10x occular and we use oil occasionally to go to 1000x.

in any case, argue all you want, but you are unilaterally/absolutely wrong here. no one is going to change your mind, so believe what you want, but aesbestos identification (fiber type and family) and fiber count are the critical parts (not necessarily that the fibers exist, as lots of safe products have aesbestos).


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

jcrack_corn said:


> while it does not take and SEM, it does take at least a polarizing light microscope and the skill to use it.
> 
> a microscope that is 900x is probably garbage from china. My professional scopes generally have 10x 20x 40x primary with a 10x occular and we use oil occasionally to go to 1000x.
> 
> in any case, argue all you want, but you are unilaterally/absolutely wrong here. no one is going to change your mind, so believe what you want, but aesbestos identification (fiber type and family) and fiber count are the critical parts (not necessarily that the fibers exist, as lots of safe products have aesbestos).


The Poster was inquiring about the plaster he pictured. These binder pieces, in the plaster pictured can be indentified with a chinese hobby microscope. Maybe even a chinese magnifying glass.
Or a jewelers loop. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.:laughing:


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## jcrack_corn (Jun 21, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> The Poster was inquiring about the plaster he pictured. These binder pieces, in the plaster pictured can be indentified with a chinese hobby microscope. Maybe even a chinese magnifying glass.
> Or a jewelers loop. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.:laughing:


several people have debunked your claims with science, do you have any science or just pseudo-ad-hominem attacks?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Asbestos fibers sitting on a table. Seen without anything but the naked eye. Old school plaster had fibers in it that were not processed like joint compound. Not as coarse as powdered insulation used to coat boilers back in the 30's and 40's, where apprentices poured the stuff out of bags, added water and applied it to the metal core to insulate it.
This thread is over.
Jack, have a nice "sciencey" day.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

Ok this isn't over yet. I learning more about my 110 year old house. Apparently over the years when remodeling was taken place asbestos abatement was done just in the small area. See first picture of boiler pipes. 









Then after opening additional walls found some pipes that were wrapped with some sort of old insulation that I can assume is more asbestos. See the next two pictures of other boiler pipes. 

















I can see that the white stuff is asbestos but not quite sure how to remove. I plan on getting 6 mil thick bags plastic to confine the area, respirators, and soapy water to spray it. But that stuff looks tough. 

Anyway to get this stuff off with out significant dust from having to possibly cut this stuff off? or can it be drenched and slide off?

Thanks.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

There are 2 separate issues with this insulation. The straight pipe is usually covered with an asbestos impregnated cardboard. These are held in place with a metal banded strapping. You unbend the strapping and remove it. The cover is open on one side and you open it at the split and it lifts off pretty easily.
The other part is the asbestos that encases the fittings. This needs to be removed by breaking it off the fittings in pieces. While both aspects need to be wetted to keep the dust down, the fittings need to be especially soaked.
Care needs to be taken in dealing with this. Others can deal with the precautions.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

That pipe wrap looks very much like asbestos. If it is that is the type that needs proper remediation. It is not DIY. It is one of the dangerous types with friable fibers that can fly around and contaminate your whole house.


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

I think we are overlooking something in and amongst all the arguing... In many locales, if not most, it is illegal and punishable with hefty fines if you are found to have abated asbestos on your own, regardless if you did it correctly or not.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Evstarr said:


> I think we are overlooking something in and amongst all the arguing... In many locales, if not most, it is illegal and punishable with hefty fines if you are found to have abated asbestos on your own, regardless if you did it correctly or not.


I take issue with a few things in this post.
There was no arguing.
Homeowners can remove asbestos in there own homes in many places, even California, as long as they follow the states guidelines. 
Here's a link to the California regulations.
http://www.vcapcd.org/asbestos.htm


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

In Rochester, NY, as a home owner you can remove anything you want to from your own home. That's what I was told word for word by the inspector at my last house. 

If you're worried about safety, you can also just seal it in place.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Practically everywhere in the U. S. you can remove asbestos from your own home. No one elses unless you are licensed. The problem you have is transport and disposal. It is a crime to improperly transport the stuff and it is highly punishable to improperly dispose of it. That's the catch. It is very good insulation. If you can leave it in place and encaspulate it, that is a much cheaper and safer option. Pipe insulation is highly friable and it is easy to contaminate a large area with a high volume of fibers. If you do remove it, you'll need to have somebody do proper disposal.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

There are numerous landfills in the U.S. that will accept asbestos containing waste, you just have to pay the tipping fee. It is illegal to dispose of asbestos containing material (acm) at a landfill not licensed to accept acm. It is also illegal to put acm out on the curb for pickup by your local trash collector, even if you label it. Unfortunately, that is how some people elect to get rid of it.


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## mgp roofing (Aug 15, 2011)

That definitely looks like asbstos. Get the pros to deal with it, if you do it yourself & get it wrong, the dust contamination could cost HUGE amounts of money to have cleaned up. I have experience in dealing with this stuff, its definitely not a job to DIY.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

So I have one company coming tomorrow and two coming the day after to provide estimates for abatement. 

My coworker had abatement done in 1999 and he said the whole home was ~$4k. I only need less than 20ft of boiler pipe insulation removed. 

I had the homeowner remove about 6ft from a pipe and it cost here $3.3k. Crazy. 

I'll let you all know what they say. Thanks.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

Ok so I had two companies so far come in and prove quotes. I will see a third in a little over 2 hours from now. 

The difference in price is shocking to me. My expectation was anywhere from $5k to $10k (which I was dreading) based on online reports, etc. 

Company 1 Quote: ~$2.7k
Company 2 Quote: $8.9k

What is with the large difference in price here? They both say that they use bag gloves. The former states that if it is hard to reach they do wet then bulk removal but everything else bag gloves. The former does not have a website but has all the insurances with the local build & codes office (they seem to know who the company is) and was recommended by a different environmental place that does the air monitoring. These prices does not include air monitoring due to the state requiring that the abatement company not do the monitoring and have the home owner get someone else. I guess that is for protection. 

If the third quote is high like the second do you all see any issues going with the first quote? I questioned the guy and he is knowledgeable. Explained and answered every question. 

Thanks for the help.

P.S. The work includes probably 26 linear ft/pipe of boiler piping insulation. There is about 4 pipes. They will remove sheet rock to get to all the piping.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

That is a HUGE difference for the exact same work. You might consider getting four estimates to see which end of the spectrum you're being hit on. The high might be way out of wack, not the low. Who knows.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

mnp13 said:


> That is a HUGE difference for the exact same work. You might consider getting four estimates to see which end of the spectrum you're being hit on. The high might be way out of wack, not the low. Who knows.


So if this third comes in high then there are issues with the low quote? What questions would you ask yourself?


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## management (May 29, 2011)

Ok so I just met with another company. They also were knowledgable and the owner came out to do the estimate. Very talkative. 

He said he would be comfortable quoting the job for $2600 but he was the only that stated that there might be additional pipes with asbestos running through a large portion of the ceiling branching of the 4 25ft of piping. He proposes having a total $3k total for everything just in case. So extra $400. 

Still waiting on the quote but if it's what he said I think I'm going with them. I have no idea what company 2 is think with $8.9k. 

I'm glad this didn't cost around $5k.


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

management said:


> So if this third comes in high then there are issues with the low quote? What questions would you ask yourself?


What would I ask myself? If they have all of the certifications and insurance they claim to. If they dispose of the waste properly. Where they are cutting corners. 

If multiple estimates are three times more than the lowest then something probably isn't right. That's not a "hard and fast" rule of course, but when you're messing with very dangerous stuff like disturbed asbestos I'd be concerned. 

When I have work estimated and all three are within 10 - 15 percent of each other that's one thing. But three times more or less than half? Something isnt quite right. There is always the possibility of them quoting the work but not really wanting it, which happens as well.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

That's for the comments. I think your right .... Company 2 probably didn't want to do it hence the almost 3x price difference between the two companies. 

According to the Building and Codes office at city hall they all have their certifications, etc. 

Still waiting on the formal quote from company 3 but I think I'm going with them. 

Thanks again.


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## management (May 29, 2011)

I ended up going with company three at a cost of $2600 before tax. The passed their air quality tests but from what I understand they didn't stirrup any air in the work area. They guy stated that they don't do that.

Is that normal?


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## mnp13 (Jan 16, 2007)

Moving around in the area "stirs up air"


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

management said:


> I ended up going with company three at a cost of $2600 before tax. The passed their air quality tests but from what I understand they didn't stirrup any air in the work area. They guy stated that they don't do that.
> 
> Is that normal?


If they glove bagged the pipe runs and removed it properly, there should be no measurable fibers in the air. That would be normal for a reputable company.


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