# LCD TV tripping GFCI breakers throughout house



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

My wife and I closed on a 2004-built home this past week. The first TV we tried to plug in was a 32" LCD, in the master BR. With no signal or other connections (just power, nothing else) to the TV, it would trip the 15-AMP GFCI breaker every time. I doubt this matters, but the TV was sitting on a plastic rolling cart, which in turn was on a carpeted floor.

I tried the TV in one of the other bedrooms and the breaker tripped there as well, at least 3 times before I stopped. All three bedrooms are on 15-AMP GFCI breakers, so I'm betting the TV (as well as our other TVs) will trip the breakers in all three of them.

The same 32" TV works fine in the living room, which is not on a GFCI breaker (don't recall the amperage).

The previous owner left the house completely furnished, so I know that she just had a two-prong old-school coax only TV hooked up in the master bedroom (two of them actually, and no others that I know of). I never met her but talked to her once to get the combination to a built-in safe, and she didn't seem like much for electronics, and probably never plugged much of anything into any outlet.

Also, the master bedroom and bath are on the same 15-amp GFCI breaker. I'm guessing I might end up splitting that circuit into 2 separate ones to resolve this problem?

Can I just replace the other GFCI breakers in the bedrooms with non-GFCI ones?

I am tech-savvy, but not terribly versed in electricity. I'm not afraid to hook up a multimeter or mess around with a breaker box (safely of course), so suggestions, recommendations, tests, etc. are welcome. Thanks in adcance!!

Oh, FYI my 1-year home warranty doesn't cover improperly installed wiring - it's "working as designed", not broken. Can you believe that? Well, maybe that's appropriate, I don't really know, but it sure pissed me off.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

You are referring to AFCI breakers, not GFCI. Better know as arc fault breakers.

This is a very common problem with AFCIs, even with newer aplainces. Unfortunately there is little recourse as the breakers are required by code in most areas. 
Replacing the breaker should be your first step. Breakers from several years ago were not as reliable as today's.


----------



## hayewe farm (Mar 15, 2009)

An AFI will trip almost anytime you plug a powered device in. Almost all newer TVs have a certain amount of powered on circuits so the remotes will work. Try plugging the TV in then while it is already plugged in rest the AFI.


----------



## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

Blame the private corporation who wrote the NEC, and your state legislature for making it a law. You could try complaining to them in that order as well.


----------



## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

The Previous responders are right on.
Here is a related thread. Lots of problems with AFCI's

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/afci-clarification-46406/
.


----------



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

hayewe farm said:


> An AFI will trip almost anytime you plug a powered device in. Almost all newer TVs have a certain amount of powered on circuits so the remotes will work. Try plugging the TV in then while it is already plugged in rest the AFI.


Not sure what this means. You want me to have the TV plugged in with the circuit shut off, then turn the circuit on?


----------



## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Modified.


> Try plugging the TV in then while it is already plugged in res*e*t the AFI.


That threw me for a loop too..

"_AFCI -- Stopping fires and rendering electronics unusable for over one years!_"


----------



## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I would put a regular 15 amp breaker in if I were in your situation. I know, I know. But this is what I would do in my house. Your house was built in 2004. Were AFCI's required. Check into that. Keep in mind this is something I would do with no concerns. I cannot advise you to do it though. :wink:


----------



## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Yes, hypothetically if I were doing lots of electrical work on my own home this year, I would not have installed a single AFCI breaker or receptacle. Purely hypothetical, because of course that would have been against code. :whistling2:


----------



## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

penleydr said:


> Not sure what this means. You want me to have the TV plugged in with the circuit shut off, then turn the circuit on?


Plug it in the wall, then if it trips just reset it and turn the TV on, it shouldn't trip then. 

An AFCI breaker is designed to trip when it detects an arc in the electrical circuit. I'm not an expert on them, but I'm sure someone here is. Am I correct in assuming that if a small arc happens inside the receptacle when you plug something in, can that register the arc fault?


----------



## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

Atroxx said:


> An AFCI breaker is designed to trip when it detects an arc in the electrical circuit. I'm not an expert on them, but I'm sure someone here is. Am I correct in assuming that if a small arc happens inside the receptacle when you plug something in, can that register the arc fault?


No, it's usually just because of the way that the power supply draws power. 

AFCI detect > 50 amps drawn over 8 half-cycles.

I suspect, but I have no direct evidence, that the AFCIs are sampling the current draw many times per second, lets say 500 times per second. If your power supply happens to be drawing more than 50 amps in a pattern that happens to interfere with the sampling rate (such as a harmonic multiple), then you get a nuisance trip.

This is a completely untested hypothesis, however.


----------



## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> …Replacing the breaker should be your first step. …….


 In 2004 AFCI's were brand new a some manufacturers had recall as Dave pointed out in a previous thread:


Scuba_Dave said:


> Keep in mind Square D had a recall of AFCI breakers back in 2004
> About 700,000 units - I had one
> I returned it to HD & had it replaced
> The older AFCI's had blue buttons, they changed the color to green
> ...


Maybe you have some of the recalled Breakers.
If not I'd still replace it because in 5 years the mfg has changed their process.
.


----------



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

Atroxx said:


> Plug it in the wall, then if it trips just reset it and turn the TV on, it shouldn't trip then.
> 
> An AFCI breaker is designed to trip when it detects an arc in the electrical circuit. I'm not an expert on them, but I'm sure someone here is. Am I correct in assuming that if a small arc happens inside the receptacle when you plug something in, can that register the arc fault?


It's not tripping when I plug it in, only when I turn it on. This TV has a switch as well on the back, similar to many computer power supplies. I've tried plugging the TV into the switch with this siwtch turned on and off, and I've tried not resetting anything as I reset the breaker, but it's always the same result. As soon as I hit the power button on the front of the TV, it trips.


----------



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

J. V. said:


> I would put a regular 15 amp breaker in if I were in your situation. I know, I know. But this is what I would do in my house. Your house was built in 2004. Were AFCI's required. Check into that. Keep in mind this is something I would do with no concerns. I cannot advise you to do it though. :wink:


Just spoke with a county building inspector, and AFCI is required by code :furious:


----------



## AndrewF (Dec 29, 2008)

I guess you now have a good reason to upgrade to a new 42" lcd or plasma for the room


----------



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

***UPDATE***

OK, so the problem seems to have been with just that one television. We finally brought over the other LCD we have, which is bigger and draws double the amperage, and it worked fine on all outlets. I guess maybe there's a short in that television.

After the bigger TV worked, a bulb went off in my head...I wondered if maybe the metal brackets for the wall mount that were still attatched to the "problem" TV was causing a short. I took the mounting brackets off, but it was still causing the breaker to trip. 

That TV is going either in the garage or on the porch, as we are getting a projector in the living room and the 42" will be a Bedroom TV.


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Is the TV under warranty?
What is the Mfg? (size 32")


----------



## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Just a side note the bathroom receptacle should not be on the same line as the bedroom receptacles (IRC 3603.4). Guess they missed that during inspection huh? If they are on the same line the GFCI and ACFI may be causing each other to trip (same as running two GFCI's on same circuit). I'm not sure if thats correct but I will run it by my electrical sub when I get back from my vacation.


----------



## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

penleydr said:


> ***UPDATE***......


Pen, Thanks for the update. You are being very considerate. 
There are so many times where on this forum, someone new comes on line with a problem, gets input from the forum, then *SILENCE*.

We never get to hear the ending.

Welcome to the forum


----------



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Just a side note the bathroom receptacle should not be on the same line as the bedroom receptacles (IRC 3603.4). Guess they missed that during inspection huh? If they are on the same line the GFCI and ACFI may be causing each other to trip (same as running two GFCI's on same circuit).


2 GFCI's on the same circuit are installed all the time & will not cuase each other to trip. 2 GFCI's 2nd one installed off the LOAD of the 1st will not cause false trips. It is done all the time - usually by people who do not know they can just protect a normal downstream outlet off the 1st GFCI


----------



## 300zx (May 24, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> Pen, Thanks for the update. You are being very considerate.
> There are so many times where on this forum, someone new comes on line with a problem, gets input from the forum, then *SILENCE*.
> 
> We never get to hear the ending.
> ...


:yes:So True. :thumbsup: Thanks for the update.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Does the TV have a 3 prong plug? Just for kicks, plug the TV into a 3 to 2 prong adapter and plug the adapter in a receptacle without grounding the extra lug. See if it works better.

Maybe the TV indeed "has a ground fault" namely the ground wire is returning current (it should not).


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Another thing to try is use an AFC UPS box, and see if it still trips.


----------



## penleydr (Jun 22, 2009)

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After a couple of months of just not having a TV in the master BR, I again encountered this problem. This time, however, I was attempting to plug in the TV to a non-AFCI outlet. Guess what though?? It tripped a breaker alright, just not the one it was plugged in to. Here's the explanation, or at least a plausible theory as to why.

Basically I've got a central entertainment center in my living room where I have two satellite cable boxes, receiver, blu ray, etc...even though it's in the LR, it's on a breaker whose other switches are in the bedroom (AFCI) on the other side of that wall, and is labeled "BR 3" in the breaker box. In the walls running away from the entertainment center (remember, this is on an afci bedroom breaker even thoug it's in the LR) are speaker wires and CAT6 cables that go between HDMI/CAT6 converting wall plates throughout the house to distribute just the video signal to locations throughout the house.

So I've got this TV in the LR that is plugged into a non-AFCI 15amp breaker circuit. However, the HDMI video cable of this TV goes to a non powered wall plate, which goes through the ceiling and walls to a video switch at the entertainment center (remember, this is on AFCI bedroom breaker even though it's in the living room)

I put the "problem" TV, a 32" Olevia LCD out onthe back porch after double-checking to make sure it wasn't somehow wired to a bedroom circuit. The instant I turned that TV on, it blew the AFCI circuit that my entertainment center was on. WHAT?????????? Yup, that's what happened...twice actually before I figured out what was happeneing AGAIN!!!

The ONLY thing I can figure is that because both TVs were on the living room (non-AFCI) circuit, and the "non problem" TV's video cable was plugged into a device that was on an AFCI circuit, that somehow a nuisance trip was caused by turning on the 32" Olevia.

As a last resort before probably just giving the TV away, I went to Lowe's and picked up a GE 15AMP AFCI breaker and swapped it for one of the Seimens AFCI breakers that all the bedroooms are on, and guess what...no more nuisance trips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess there's a bad batch of Siemens AFCI 15amp breakers, or they just make them such that they're more sensetive to the specific circuitry of this television that I've never had a problem with in the past. I just wish I didn't have to spend the 100 bucks to replace all three. I might not actually, since I can only put that TV in one place, I guess I only need one replacement breaker...???


----------



## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

You, my friend, have just stumbled on what many of us professional electricians have known for some time: Those AFCI breakers are a bunch of junk, and are subject to a lot of nuisance trips, failures, etc. 

The first things I do when attempting to troubleshoot an AFI protected circuit is to either replace the breaker outright, or disconnect the wires from the offending breaker and watch it trip with _no wires connected to the output terminals at all! _ :furious:


----------



## gkossowan (Jun 18, 2011)

*Arc Fault*

Hey there, Just a quick question. I have a brand new house that we have been in for 2 days. I built the house myself including doing the electrical. I passed all my inspections no problem, and have an arc fault question. First of all I wanted to test the arc faults before the inspector did so I plugged in a skill saw and couldn't get the arc fault to pop. Now that the house is complete I hooked up a LCD tv in my bedroom and it popped the AFCI. So this is my question, is it the goal of AFCIs to get rid of tv for kids but allow them to have access to skill saws??? Why would this be the case. I know the answer is to switch to a regular breaker, but should this not be addressed on a bigger level? I am not scared to have a regular breaker in a bedroom after this experience, I lived in a house that had its electrical done in 1940 and that didnt scare me, so this wont either. I think AFCIs are a joke, what is the point if you can have saw in your room but not a TV???? Someone with a good answer for me please let meek know!!!


----------



## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

gkossowan said:


> Hey there, Just a quick question. I have a brand new house that we have been in for 2 days. I built the house myself including doing the electrical. I passed all my inspections no problem, and have an arc fault question. First of all I wanted to test the arc faults before the inspector did so I plugged in a skill saw and couldn't get the arc fault to pop. Now that the house is complete I hooked up a LCD tv in my bedroom and it popped the AFCI. So this is my question, is it the goal of AFCIs to get rid of tv for kids but allow them to have access to skill saws??? Why would this be the case. I know the answer is to switch to a regular breaker, but should this not be addressed on a bigger level? I am not scared to have a regular breaker in a bedroom after this experience, I lived in a house that had its electrical done in 1940 and that didnt scare me, so this wont either. I think AFCIs are a joke, what is the point if you can have saw in your room but not a TV???? Someone with a good answer for me please let meek know!!!


You should start a new thread. It will make things easier.


----------



## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

Some appliances with switch mode power supplies,
Do cause some earth leakage.
And this can cause tripping of gfci's.
To test this theory plug the tv into a non grounded outlet
with nothing else connectted to it,
If it works and doesnt trip any thing,
then the point is confirmed.

Do not continue to use it ungrounded.
Just get rid of it.
But at least you will know the reason why.


----------



## AndyinAtl (Mar 22, 2009)

Bah. This subject frustrates me. AFCI's save lives. No breaker can completely protect a home against an electrical fire but AFCI's do an excellent job reducing the risk. A standard breaker protects equipment and wiring. GFCI's and AFCI's are designed to protect YOU, the homeowner. I won't argue the fact that both can be an annoying pain in the booty to troubleshoot.

The fact is I could completely eliminate my breaker panel and cram all the circuits in my house under the main lugs and the chances are I would never have a problem. I could also never wear my seatbelt in Atlanta traffic and never get in a wreck that would require the seatbelt to prevent me from going headfirst thru the windshield, killing me instantly.

The international Association of Electrical Inspectors reports an average of 53,000 home electrical fires inthe USA per year resulting in 500 deaths. AFCI's would prevent most, but certainly not all of these fires much in the same way seatbelts prevent most, but definitely not all deaths in wrecks.

Its all fun, games and conjecture until somebody gets killed.


----------



## Djinnrutger (Jan 27, 2017)

I just had an electrician in to change out a breaker from 15amp to 20 amp so we can run an electric heater. He checked and he had the right gauge of wire and everything looked good. If it would have been just the outlet i could have replaced that on my own, but didnt want to mess in the breaker box. When he went to replace the outlet he found there was no ground. so he had to put in a GFCI Fault/Arc outlet where we will be putting the heater at. which is fine...except that is also where our main TV plugs into as well. As soon as we plugged the TV it, it tripped. The electrician said that is all he can do so i should buy a new tv as there must be a problem with our current tv. It is 6-7 year old Samsung LCD 45". I thanked the electrician and figured i would just replace the outlet with a 20 amp normal non-GFCI. (i know that is a nono) got on google and did some research and found I am not alone with these problems. But I did find if i put a 3 prong-2 prong cheater adapter on the TV and plugged it into the power strip, it works fine. So this is my temporary solution until i convince my wife we need a new 60" tv.  Just thought i would share about the cheater plug.


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

If it works without the ground that tells me the ground might actually connected or the TV would not be able to bleed current to ground.
Do you have cable or satellite service?
If you have cable try disconnecting the cable from the TV and see if the GFCI still trips. If you have a cable box then disconnect at the TV first and then at the box input. If it does not then the cable line or cable box may have a fault putting power on the ground.


----------



## Djinnrutger (Jan 27, 2017)

I have a Cable box that plugs into the same power strip and it is ok. then I use HDMI to the TV.


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I would still test the TV with nothing else attached to it just to verify it is the TV that is the issue.


----------



## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Not for nothin....but this thread died like five years back....and yet it lives again??


----------



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The new posts should be broken off into a new thread.


----------

