# LED Lights anyone?



## LaHandyman (Jan 11, 2009)

This may not help answer your question but, I have 4 LED small base bulbs in some motion switch night lights and my ice dispencer in the door of the fridge. The light is blue and not very bright. But for the savings I will live with it. My whole house have nothing but screw in florecent bulbs and some of my high traffic areas have motion light switches as well. All my out side lights are the screw in florecent type as well. All this together saved me about $50.00 a month on the electric bill


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks for that.
All our lights are currently the 13 watt compact fluorescents.
I just bought a small LED light with solar panel for attachment to the garden shed. Not installed yet due to the awful weather we have had.


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## LaHandyman (Jan 11, 2009)

LaHandyman said:


> This may not help answer your question but, I have 4 LED small base bulbs in some motion switch night lights....


I just took these 2 pics to show you what they look like. I used an eye loop to get the blowup on the bulb.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't know what's available as far as light bulbs for use in regular fixtures, but can assure you that LEDs use about a third as much electricity as comparable incandescent bulbs. They are also super durable because they don't have a filament. They'll basically last a very very very long time.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks KC.
I did a little research into the LED's, and it seems they have ratings anywhere from 30,000 to as much as 100,000 hours of use.
Since I'm not in the habit of believing everything I see from an advertiser I will take the 100K with a grain of salt.
It surely only must be a matter of time before these LED's are commonly available.
I am quite curious to find out how they are in the real world compared to the CF's.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

I have only used them in Kiosk displays for spot lighting and they are ok, the set I used were 12 LED disc lights and are a bit dim. I would suggest nothing less than 18 LED for decent lighting, but they are still quite expensive. I was hoping by now they would have come down more in price, but maybe the popularity isn't there just yet. Since power consumption is more important to you, that might not be an issue, or for use in hard to get to places like the ceiling. They do say that temperature effects the life span. Since it does not get that hot up there, I don't think that will be a problem for you. I also have an outdoor solar LED spot that worked quite well at first, but now, about 5 months later, the light is dim, but I suspect that is due to poor quality batteries but have yet to change them out. 
Let us know if you find a good source. Though I am currently using CF, I'd still like to change my most often used lights to LED.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi wrangler:
I wasn't aware that a higher temperature shortened their lifespan, so thankyou for that.
And I also note that for the most part they seem more suited to task lighting than to general illumination.
One other point I discovered, is that a university in Scotland has been trying to find a way to get more light out of the LED's. What they came up with was a way to actually make holes in the LED's to get the light out. Evidently, they have a system which can be used economically on billions of LED's now, so that is an obstacle which no longer exists.
As far as cost goes, we seem to think only short term, don't we? Over the life of an LED spot, I think I read that it could save something like $240 in energy costs, based on someone paying 10 cents a kwh now. So, even if a spot costs $30 - a price I have seen on a couple of sites - the long term savings are indeed significant.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

On a Green site I visit someone had a lightning storm
His 3 LED bulbs failed
Not another bulb or electric device in his home was effected
Just something to think about


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

That's interesting. Fortunately, we get very little in the way of lightning here. But I think if we ever did get a direct hit that our inverter would get blown to bits. I have seen very strange things happen to electrical systems on boats when they get struck.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

cocobolo said:


> As far as cost goes, we seem to think only short term, don't we? Over the life of an LED spot, I think I read that it could save something like $240 in energy costs, based on someone paying 10 cents a kwh now. So, even if a spot costs $30 - a price I have seen on a couple of sites - the long term savings are indeed significant.


Oh I do agree that the savings and convenience are well worth the investment, just that it is a bit expensive for the initial conversion... at least for my budget! Especially since I was able to get the CFs for less than $1 each at a Black Friday sale a couple of years ago.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I did my first web hunt for LED's only about two months ago and nothing since. Until today. I can't believe how much more is out there so fast.
One site shows replacing a regular 60w incandescent with an LED resulting in net savings of $159. Per light!
They claim if that every household in the US changed just one bulb over, it would save more energy than a huge power plant puts out every day.
Another site has what looks like a good bulb to put in the cans over the kitchen counter for only $16, and that is with free shipping to the US and Canada, Gotta love that. I'll keep looking, and if I don't find anything much better in the next few days I might just get 5 and see how they are.
Some of these guys run up to almost $200 a pop! A tad too much for my blood.
Last time I got a pack of CF's here it was $10 for a 6 pak. That was just before xmas.


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## Mike in Arkansas (Dec 29, 2008)

Sam,'s Wholesale Club is selling a few type right now with regular screw bases.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

We were getting 4paks of CFL bulbs for free after instant rebate

There are many problems with LED bulbs right now as the bugs are worked out. Lack of proper engineering - poor cooling - this will kill the LED in very little time. Some designs simply do not have enough testing yet & are flawed. We had a supplier of LED christmas lights & almost his entire line was going up in smoke when used. Yes - made in China.

I'll wait, I do have LED rope light that I use & in the kitchen (3) under counter hockey puck lights


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## Shamus (Apr 27, 2008)

I have the 100K LED "string" lights under my kitchen cabinets. They have been in for 5 years and I rarely turn them off. I bought them on-line, 4 - 60" strings for $30 each back then. I'll be darned if I can find who I got them from. I do remember they offered several styles and different bases, applications.

They work just fine with no heat to mention. I'll keep looking for the site I bought them from.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

The LED christmas lights I have don't seem to make any heat at all. Then again, they don't make a lot of light either. So I am surprised that the dealer experienced an "up in smoke" scenario. Perhaps it was more a wiring problem in the light string than the actual LED.
I tried to see how much heat my LED headlight put out yesterday. Left it on for 4 hours straight. It was cold. Not even a hint of warmth.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

LED strings that are properly setup are full wave - this eliminates the flicker & allows the LED to perform at its "best"
The strings in question will work without any problems for most people. But the site I am on is full of people who "animate" their displays & the lights dance to the music. This was the problem, but buyers were assured that these had been tested & worked with the animation. But the MFG changed the design 

Cheap LED strings are not setup correctly, have flicker, are not as bright as they can be, may have sockets that corrode, plus other problems


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks for that, again very interesting.
I can't say I have noticed any flickering on mine, except for one of the three lights in my headlamp now that you mention it.
Two of the lights are steady. Sometimes the third light flickers, and sometimes it is steady. I guess something might be loose inside.
It's about two years old now and I have never even looked at the battery.
Surprising it has lasted so long, as it gets a lot of use. Shows how little energy these guys really do use.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I bought some LED Mag-Lite flashlights before Christmas this year. They are much brighter than flashlights with regular bulbs and the batteries are suppose to last a lot longer. Why are the LED lights we use in a house dimmer, but for flashlights they're brighter?


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

It has something to do with both how they are mounted in the lights themselves, and also whether or not they have the proper outlet for the actual light beam.
I know the flashlights really do look bright, but they focus all their light into a very narrow beam.
Many of the household LED's also have a fairly narrow focus, and I think this is because each of the LED's has a tiny reflector behind it forcing the bulk of the light to go in one direction.
Whereas a fluorescent or incandescent light creates light either by heating up an element or exciting a gas. This light will travel indiscriminately in any direction, therefore filling a room with light, and giving the impression that it is brighter.
I have just found out that one of our friends at the other end of the island has soldered together something like 200 units to make a grow light. He is a chef and wants to be able to grow fresh greens all winter here. He has also made himself a cooled growing area inside his house. Winter greens do not like warm soil apparently. I haven't been up to check it out, but he tells me that the light is so bright there is no way you can look at it.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I wonder how big of an area 200 of them covers. I can imagine it would be extremely bright. He'll have some happy plants. 

One tiny LED flashlight I bought to keep in the nightstand and to read with came with a warning on the package not to look directly at the light. When I was buying the flashlights, I thought I'd grab a few extra bulbs just to have around. Ha! That didn't happen. If I remember right, one little package of 2 bulbs was $18.00. I'm surprised they don't have them locked in a glass cabinet like they do video games :laughing:. Since the flashlights were on sale and my son-in-law was able to get another 30% off, the replacement bulbs cost more than what I paid for the flashlight with an LED bulb in it.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Here are a couple of products available at Sam's Club:


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't know what the 200 cover, but if he is growing winter greens, it must be at least the equivalent area of several seed flats. I will have to wander up there and check it out. It is a fairly long walk up there, so that will have to wait 'til it warms up a bit.

kbsparky:
Please forgive my ignorance, but is Sam's club a regular type store or something online? I have not seen one up here in the wilds of western Canada.
That spot is what I am looking for. Perfect for the kitchen.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

Sam's Club is similar to Cosco, a wharehouse type store. Those bulbs are priced well, at $14.86 each plus shipping (you can purchase on-line). When I was reading the consumer comments, they sound like they perform slightly less than described (slight blue light vs warm white, 15-20W comparable vs 40/45) but not sure if those comments were for both lights. Still might be worth trying one before committing to buying a large lot.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks Wrangler. I went online last night and found Sam's OK, but there were no prices for the spots that I could find.
There seems to be a variety of light that you can get, i.e. warm white, cool white etc.
One of the sites I ran across provides the Kelvin temperatures for each type and describes what it is closest to. Guess I will have to find that one again and pay more attention this time!!


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

Cocobolo, if I remember right, in Canada you have The President's Club which is one of the 'pay to shop' stores like Sam's Club.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I know there is a President's Choice brand, which is sold through a variety of stores, notably Superstore up here.
The only pay to shop place I know of out west is Costco. I haven't checked in there yet, but we do have a Costco over in Nanaimo, so maybe worth checking out.
I think it is just a matter of time before these LED's become widely available and at lower cost.
Still looking, as I am anxious to get some ASAP.
Even using solar power, our energy cost is high in winter. Due to the fact that we need to run the generator every day. We all know what the cost of gasoline is, and this makes our KWH price positively stratospheric!


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

Try doing a search from the Sam's Club site for 116186 and 116198. I noticed there is a slight price diff for diff stores(14.86 here vs 15.26 in Seattle)
Brett


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Actually, I have found what appears to be a very similar light, possibly identical, for $16, which includes free shipping to Canada. So that will likely be my choice for now. I will keep looking, just in case. I have 5 cf's up there now, so for me that is just around a 3 amp draw on our solar system. More than I would like just for a few lights. Really looking forward to the LED's.


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## mferguson0414 (Jan 6, 2009)

on the comment about mag-lite flashlights with the LED inside, the led itself is a 3watt led, that is one main reason why the bulb appears to be so much brighter. check out this website if you are truely interested in LED lighting, I found it to be very helpful, and a broad range of products- http://www.ledliquidatorsinc.com


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I couldn't believe how bright that Mag-light is. I aimed it out toward the back of my yard at night and I could see everything back there very clearly. It's about 200+ feet back. 

Thanks for the link to that website.


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## mferguson0414 (Jan 6, 2009)

not a problem at all, hope I could help ya.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you for the link. They sure do seem to have some good stuff there. Since I will eventually need the regular type bulbs as well as the spots, I particularly like their small 12 LED bulb. Not a bad price either when you get a quantity.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Last night I spent at least two hours on the web hunting down LED info. Good heavens! How little do I know?
If I had to make a judgment, I would say that LED's seem to be in about the same position as CF's were when they first became commonly available.
Which is to say, they are having their teething problems.
It seems that every manufacturer or supplier has "The Best" LED out there. Many of them are bashing the competition. So it is difficult now for me to believe what any one supplier has to say.
However, there is always the consumer to listen to. This, it seems, may well be our saving grace.
There are a few sites on which consumers have been able to post their comments. The ones I have found to be most useful are when there has been a problem with the light they bought.
Sometimes, the seller was happy to exchange for another one. Sometimes, that was a problem and there was difficulty even with that.
There are questions about the color of the light, although if the kelvin number is given, that really shouldn't be an issue.
We are going to have to accept the fact that LED's just do not make light in the same fashion as the predecessors.
There is no doubt they run much cooler. That's a good thing IMO.
And there is no question that they are far less consumptive of electricity, and that's a good thing too.
There is no mercury, as there is in a CF bulb. Did you know that?
And there are very different types of LED, and I don't just mean how the light looks. I am still learning about this, and it seems that there is a lot more homework to do yet.
One other thing about the cost.
There seems to be a terrific range in price. I have seen spotlights in the $15 range as well as nearly $100. Yes, they have differing numbers of LED's with correspondingly different light output.
But consider this, if you are paying say 7 cents a kwh for electricity, it would take forever for the LED to pay you back in savings.
On the other hand, if you are in the 15 cent range, you would likely be fine.
And one final point - for now anyway - do not believe all those cost saving figures from the sellers. I have found far too many mathematical errors. The figures are not as rosy as they would have you believe.
I'm still checking.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

> There are questions about the color of the light, although if the kelvin number is given, that really shouldn't be an issue


What is the difference in the color in relation to the kelvin number?


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

That's exactly what I was referring to about when you read the consumer responses on Sam's Club site about the bulbs advertised there. And also why I suggested trying one before buying in bulk. I would assume (though that in and of itself could be wrong) that the more LEDs in a light, the better the illumination and the higher the cost. I replaced a Kiosk's display's incandescent lights with 12-LED disc lights only to find that they only offer a 'light glow' vs the 'spot' lighting we had previously. Granted, they will not need changing ever again, and if we were paying for the electricity, it would be less expensive, but if I had it to do again, I would have just kept replacing the bulbs(higher #LEDs were/are not available to fit the existing holes). 
It does seem that the ones referenced before would work fine for spot lighting or under counter lighting, but not sure about their performance from a distance(ie. as a spot from 6+ feet above). 
As accent lighting they would probably do great, but since energy consumption is such a concern, what about using 'directed skylights'? Great for daytime illumination, of course, not so much for night unless you could also incorporate a light into the reflecting tube.
Just another thought...
Brett


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Here's the short answer to the kelvin question.
A lower number, e.g. 2700K means the light is warmer. A higher number, possibly up to 6500K, means it is a cooler, possibly bluish light.
Most of us like our home lighting in the 2700K to 3000K range. You won't find much over 5000K, as that is a pretty stark color.

And regarding the number of actual LED's in any given light, I have run across examples which indicate that the number of LED's does not necessarily mean the price is higher. You would certainly think this would be the case.
Think about this. A string of christmas lights may have 50 separate LED's and only cost $10 or $15. So it does not appear to be just the LED that is driving the price. It is the manner in which the whole light is made. There is actually a fair bit of electronics in those guys. Not the christmas lights, I mean the bigger spots. But then, even a CF has electronics inside.


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## kc5oh (Jan 28, 2008)

They are crazy expensive but definitely well worth it. CFLs will be obsolete in probably two years.

I work in the traffic business and for the past 5 years or so traffic signals are slowly being converted to LEDs. They use 10% of the power of incandescents, do not put out much heat at all, and last forever (5 year warranty on traffic signals).

I would say wait a little bit for the prices to drop but if you are considering switching from incandescents I would seriously consider bypassing CFLs.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I think I would be inclined to agree with you, except with solar power we have to do everything possible to keep our electrical use to a minimum. So the CF was a no brainer for us here.
I am going to try a few lights, perhaps from different sources, just to see how they do.
Great thing about LED's for traffic lights! I would say that the mere fact that they are supposed to last so long would mean that, in theory anyway, they essentially won't burn out.
By any chance do you know if the constant on and off affects the life of the LED's?


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

Not only have I seen them in use for traffic lights, but many shipping companies are using them for trailers(automotive) uses. Much brighter and less changing/failure. I almost bought a pair of the previously mentioned lights at Sams Club last night to check their lighting, but I really do not have a need for a spot light. They were $14.86 for 2 lights. They also had a set of 3 candle type lights for the same price.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Are you saying TWO spot lights for less than $15?


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

Sorry, I mis-spoke, or typed. They were the downlight/accent lights that Sparky posted a picture of on the previously page. They also had the 'candle' light 3-packs, but were out of the spots.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

So the best deal so far is still the one for $16, but it includes shipping. Now i have to find out if it is any good or not. A little more checking I guess.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

Over the past few days I have run across some interesting information, which I think you all should be interested in.
Did you know that several countries, including the U. K. and Canada will be banning incandescent lights in the near future? Can the U. S. be far behind?
On one website, which has several price comparisons between their LED bulbs and CFL's and incandescents, I have noted some fairly inaccurate numbers.
Example: They have an LED called a CC Vivid which only uses 2 watts of power. Using a life expectancy of 20,000 hours for the LED, and an electricity price of 11.94 cents a KWH, the total cost of this bulb will be $42.11 which includes electricity.
They claim that the standard 13 watt CF will require an expenditure of $71.04.
This would be for all the bulbs and all the power they would consume.
The company says you would need 8 CF's at $5.00 each, an average of 2,500 hours per bulb.
Today I picked up two types of CF's, not LED's unfortunately. The spot type is a 14 watt bulb and cost $3.00 each in Canada, and the regular 13 watt cf was 4 for $5.99, or $1.50 each. The manufacturer, Sylvania in this case, lists the bulbs as having a life span of 8,000 hours.
Now using the cost/life span figures from Sylvania, and the same 11.94 cents/KWH price, the total cost of 20,000 hours use with CF's comes out to $35.54.
I have been led to believe that cost saving was one of the major benefits of the LED along with the power saving aspect.
In this case, the cost saving is actually negative. This is going to make the LED a tough sell, unless your power cost is very high.
So, a couple of questions for you.
1. Would you be willing to ante up the extra cash - remember that the vast bulk of that is up front - just to reduce your consumption?
2. Or will you wait until the cost of the LED's drop considerably so that your payback comes more quickly.  I'm guessing we will need LED's to get to the $10 range or less before they really take off.
3. What is the rate you pay where you are per KWH?
Thanks.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

That's good information cocobolo. I don't have a problem with switching over to LED's, but if I can help it, I don't think I'll ever buy the CFL's. I like my incandescent bulbs. I've heard that about different countries taking them off the market in the near future . I guess I better stock-up :laughing:.

For you and anyone else depending on solar energy and a generator, anything that uses less energy would be worth the relatively small investment for the CFL's. It's the smart way to go.

But for the average family with a continuous supply of electricity, the way I look at it is - I just don't have light bulbs turned on for any unreasonable length of time at any given time of the day or night. I think if people really want to save electricity there are other ways to save far more energy than just switching some light bulbs. It gives people a false sense of 'helping the environment'. When someone tells me they are doing their part to save the environment and they seem so proud that they are using only CFL's, I can't help but roll my eyes. They use CFL's, but they have 2 tv's (with the receivers and DVD players) running along with 1 or two computer's and monitors, plus they don't turn the light's off when they leave a room (don't need to, CFL's save money) plus the video games that are plugged in along with another tv, we charge our cell phones, mp3 players, batteries, use electric clothes dryer's (I sure do miss using a clothes line), curling iron's, hair dryers, in-floor heating, running a dishwasher instead of doing a load in the sink etc. I just don't see where spending money on slightly more efficient light bulbs but still using all the other electrical conveniences makes sense. To me, it's like ordering 3 Big Mac's, 2 X-Large fries, a chocolate shake and two apple pies at McDonald's but getting the Diet Coke because it feels good knowing that we're not consuming all those bad calories and sugar from a regular Coke :laughing:.

Having said all that, I'd pay more and switch to LED's if the lighting is more natural than CFL's.



> 3. What is the rate you pay where you are per KWH?


I looked on my last bill and it's a LITTLE :whistling2: confusing. It doesn't really give an exact amount per KWH. It's divided up like this:

Electric Delivery Charges - Delivery Surcharges $2.15 + $2.68
KWH Charge-Energy 0.047517/KWH
Power Supply Cost Recovery 0.022730/KWH
System Access Charge $6.00
Elec Distribution Charge  0.026082/KWH
Securitization Charge 0.001358/KWH
Securitization Tax Charge 0.000611/KWH
+ Sales Tax (are we paying taxes on the Securitization Tax Charge?)
add an extra 2% if the bill is paid late :laughing:

Ya know, after looking at all that I have to ask, "Where can I buy those CFL bulbs?" LOL

I can't complain, there are people in Kentucky that still don't have power because of the ice storm they had last week.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

What you say is right on the mark.
ANY kind of heating element powered by electricity REALLY chews through the power. And most people leave their TV's, VCR's, DVD players and all that stuff plugged in 24/7. It makes a huge difference if they are put on power bars and turned off when not being used.
The claim is that the LED's are closer to natural daylight, but the price really must come down.
I am going to keep on checking and doing more price comparisons.


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## dgbehrends (May 4, 2008)

LaHandyman said:


> My whole house have nothing but screw in florecent bulbs and some of my high traffic areas have motion light switches as well.


Hi. Could you tell me what kind of motion light switches you use with your cfls? I bought a levitron motion sensor that mounts right in place of a wall switch. It was rated for cfls however when I installed it, the cfl lights did nothing more than a very dim flicker. Any help is appreciated.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

cocobolo said:


> 1. Would you be willing to ante up the extra cash - remember that the vast bulk of that is up front - just to reduce your consumption?
> 2. Or will you wait until the cost of the LED's drop considerably so that your payback comes more quickly. I'm guessing we will need LED's to get to the $10 range or less before they really take off.
> 3. What is the rate you pay where you are per KWH?
> Thanks.


1. No
2. Yes (though I am currently using CFLs)
3. $.13 (after all their fees/taxes)


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

cocobolo said:


> 1. Would you be willing to ante up the extra cash - remember that the vast bulk of that is up front - just to reduce your consumption?
> 2. Or will you wait until the cost of the LED's drop considerably so that your payback comes more quickly. I'm guessing we will need LED's to get to the $10 range or less before they really take off.
> 3. What is the rate you pay where you are per KWH?
> Thanks.


1. No

2. LED's need to drop in price below $5 actually
I bought a lot of CFL's less then $1 each - 9 watts
I then bought more when they dropped the price to $3.24 for a 4 pk - AND there was a $4 instant rebate - so FREE
I now have over 200 9w CFL bulbs , couple dozen 13w bulbs & some 23w bulbs
I looked at LED bulbs - 7.5w, not worth it to save 1.5w

AND - someone with 3 LED bulbs lost all 3 in a thunderstorm - not another electric device was effected

3. Rate with delivery is around .16 kWh, I divide the bill by the kWh

My new LCD TV has 2 power settings when turned off
a) Standby mode - uses 9w while off
b) Energy saver "off" - did not register even 1w of power


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

ScubaDave:
thanks, didn't know the new LCD's had two off settings. Is there a physical switch on the TV, or is it just automatic?
The problem with my system here is that it takes about 18 watts to keep the inverter on by itself. In order to do that, something, i.e. a lightbulb, has to be on. If nothing is on at all, the inverter goes to sleep. I think there is some power drain when the inverter is sleeping, I don't remember exactly but it's about 4 watts. I can live with that.
Our provincial electric company, B.C. Hydro, has had various programs in the past where they give away CFL's to encourage the removal of the old lights.
How do you like the way gma2rjc gets billed? Or do all the U.S. utilities bill that way?
That looks to me like a deliberate attempt to confuse and mislead the customer. While I have not been a customer of B.C. Hydro for nearly 12 years, I do believe they just give the rate per kwh as a single number, which I believe is around 7 cents. There is tax on power here as well. Yet another gimmick.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My bill is the same
Its all broken up into different sections

The power setting is in the setup program of the TV
I'm not sure if all TV's have it


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

This is an interesting and helpful thread. Is there a website that tells roughly how many watts per hour each appliance uses when they're off or on? I didn't know electricity was still being used when something is turned off.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

gma2rjc said:


> This is an interesting and helpful thread. Is there a website that tells roughly how many watts per hour each appliance uses when they're off or on? I didn't know electricity was still being used when something is turned off.


Not as far as I know, devices are all different
I have a KillAWatt meter & tested stuff in my house
My microwave uses 1w
My old TV/VCR setup uses 13w


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

13w while it's shut off? 

Is it true that if there is a buildup of dust, pet hair etc. under a refrigerator, it uses more electricity? I've taken that little plastic 'toekick' under the door off twice in the past 6 months to vacuum inside there. I can't believe how quickly it builds up.

Cocobolo, in your Gulf Island Building post thumbup, it was interesting to read about where you put your refrigerator and how that saves electricity.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

I think part of the point of this post is that if you have ANY electronic device, be it your DVD player, home theater system, instant-on TV, or chargers for batteries, phones or other chargeable devices, that they still draw power, plugged into the phone, Ipod etc. or NOT. It still takes power to operate the units. 
Reducing the current via a power strip WILL significantly lower your power consumption. Even if using these tips does not lower your power bill from last year, remember, you are paying more for each KW this year than you did last year, thus, you are actually saving money!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes, a power strip WILL help - if you shut everything them off
Old TV, VCR & cable box use 20w while off. People who have 4-5 TV's & other devices could be wasting 100-200 watts all the time



> gma2rjc
> 13w while it's shut off?


Yes, 20 watts while its off including the cable box

Yes a buildup of dust will cause the fridge to work harder
This is true for the fridges that have the exposed coils on the back or to a certain extent piping under the fridge


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm really glad that some good info is coming forward here.
For instance, putting your short term use items, TV's, computers etc. on a power bar, and turning off when not in use would be AT LEAST the equivalent of switching over to a couple or three CF's if you are still on incandescents or going over to a couple of LED from CF's.
We only use our microwave maybe once or twice a week, so it only gets plugged in for use. In case you don't know a typical 800w m/w uses in the vicinity of 12-1500 watts to operate. Yes, they are usually only run for a short time, but they're still power hungry.
It is things like water heaters which are always on that hurt. Rigging your water heater up to a timer could chop your water heating cost very substantially, and that is a big part of your energy bill.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I suppose it's only possible to put an electric water heater on a timer (great idea!) but other than turning the temp. down on a gas water heater, is there a way to cut their energy use? I thought about wrapping insulation (meant for a water heater) around it, but it feels cool to the touch, so it doesn't seem like the insulation would help.

I saw on the tv show 'Deconstruction', the episode about the A.O.Smith gas water heaters and how much more energy efficient they are. Of course, probably ANY hot water heater is more energy efficient than the standard gas water heater. I'm guessing that the tankless are better too. 

My uncle said that when he was a kid (He's about 61 now), they had to go in the basement and turn the water heater on when they wanted hot water and God forbid they should ever forget to turn it off when they were done. If you forgot to shut it off, you might spend Saturday afternoon picking the shingles and siding from your house off of someone else's lawn two blocks away (ka-blooweey!).


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm hoping the tankless is as good as they claim. In the new house I will be using one.
The europeans have had these things for ages and they are literally everywhere. I think I paid $695 for the tankless, which will be propane fired.
I really don't know how much more efficient the new water heaters are, for the reason that it still takes "X" watts of power to heat one pound of water one degree. Maybe they have a better quality insulation.
And while your water heater may feel cool on the outside, another blanket of insulation will give you a very quick payback. Every little bit helps.
What I am waiting for is for the new solar panels to become publicly available.
A very forward thinking company in California is producing panels for the unheard of price of $1 per watt. That is comparable to coal costwise.


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## hychesee (Oct 31, 2008)

Here are a couple of points for your consideration:
1) I am planning on going off grid soon and am willing to pay $16 for a LED light to get my usage down to save on a PV array. Using 1 light for 10 hours is 30 watts (LED) vs 130 watts (CFL) a 100 watt panel is about $500, divided by the average of 5 hours sunlight it is about $100 to run that CFL or $15 to just buy the LED bulb.

2) Shutting off an electric water heater will save you about 25 cent a week as compared to the re-heat costs. This is based on a 10 cent kilowatt charge. An insulating blanket may void warrenties and cause other problems and could take a few years to payback.

3) Tankless water heaters have not been proven to save any kind of large money if at all, mostly they are just space savers. Turn your themostat down to 120F of less if you can, thats your biggest savings. This is simple thermodynamics which states the the smaller the temperature difference between ambient the lesser the heat loss.


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## hychesee (Oct 31, 2008)

gma2rjc said:


> I suppose it's only possible to put an electric water heater on a timer (great idea!) but other than turning the temp. down on a gas water heater, is there a way to cut their energy use? I thought about wrapping insulation (meant for a water heater) around it, but it feels cool to the touch, so it doesn't seem like the insulation would help.
> 
> I saw on the tv show 'Deconstruction', the episode about the A.O.Smith gas water heaters and how much more energy efficient they are. Of course, probably ANY hot water heater is more energy efficient than the standard gas water heater. I'm guessing that the tankless are better too.
> 
> My uncle said that when he was a kid (He's about 61 now), they had to go in the basement and turn the water heater on when they wanted hot water and God forbid they should ever forget to turn it off when they were done. If you forgot to shut it off, you might spend Saturday afternoon picking the shingles and siding from your house off of someone else's lawn two blocks away (ka-blooweey!).


Let me expand on these thoughts a little bit more in depth:
As said previously your savings is about $0.25 per week when completely shut off, using a $50 timer will take 15 years to payback. I think the power companies perpetuated this ruse to save them high dollar daytime grid time.

You are right about the outside temperature, if it is cool then all is good, a $20 blanket only makes the seller rich.

I'm not quite as old as your uncle (close) and am not sure when they introduced the TPR (Temperature Pressure relief Valve) but if it failed or there were none then it could blow sky high.

You are absolutely correct about turning the temperature down, why waste the money to heat water just to temper it with cold water so you can use it. Cold (warm) water detergent and bleach is all you need.

Even the hottest of water, beyond sterile steam (270F? memory?) will not kill everything, bleach is needed for all drains especially your kitchen sink and underwear. Note: if you have a septic tank or cesspool use it sparingly.


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## cocobolo (Dec 16, 2008)

hychesee:
Thanks for all your comments.
I am still of the opinion that an extra insulating layer around an ELECTRIC water heater is a good thing. Let's not forget that most of them take nearly 2 hours to heat a tank full of water from cold to hot. 
Gas, on the other hand is more like a 20 minute recovery time.
And I also believe that the gas fired tankless water heaters do indeed save money, for the simple reason that you are not maintaining 30 or 40 gallons of water at your high temperature (120F for example) as opposed to using it as soon as it is heated.
They are not ideal for everyone, as they will only provide a certain amount of temperature rise. So, if you have water that is being heated from 50F as opposed to 70F, you may find that your end result is that the water is not hot enough.
I am aware that there are many different models out there, and some of them have high flow and very high temperatures that they will get the water to. However, along with all that impatience goes a much higher cost for fuel to heat the water.
I wish you well in your transition to going off grid.
I have been off for nearly 12 years now.
You are quite right about the LED being well worth buying on solar power.
Our kwh cost here in the wintertime is probably in the area of $1. That would be because of the frequent generator use.
In the summer, we go several months with no generator use at all. I have never bothered to calculate what our overall coast is for power, but it is quite a bit more than the typical grid price when everything is added in.
For example, we have just got a new set of batteries. Something you have to do about every 7 years. You get to pay for that in one lump.
For me, $16 would be a very quick payback, simply because of our high cost of power.


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