# Insulation for real 2in x 8in floor joists (old house)



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Heat rises so feeling a difference on the floor is minimal. So if you do the r 19 you will always wonder if you should have done more.
paper face is a vapour barrier and the floor sheeting is considered a barrier so non faced is fine.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Is the basement heated or otherwise maintaining a reasonable temperature? In many basements they get heat from the heat ducts, pipes, and furnace/boiler so stay well above freezing. If the basement is reasonably "not cold" then adding insulation to the ceiling will do almost nothing.

Cold floors are a common problem but the solution is to put the heat down there. What type of heating do you have, forced hor air or baseboard hot water?

Bud


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

I have steam radiator heating but no radiators in the basement.

Also the basement is completed unfinished the part of the basement is right next to bilco doors which have a lot of drafts.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Check the pricing per square foot for R12 and use it doubled up. Stagger the seams.
Versus R28 for 8 inch deep joists.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> I have steam radiator heating but no radiators in the basement.
> 
> Also the basement is completed unfinished the part of the basement is right next to bilco doors which have a lot of drafts.


 Then build an insulated door at the bottom of the stairs to the bilco doors.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Good point. And I suppose caulking around the bilco doors won't hurt either.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Hi do you mean R13? I see that they are both 3.5in thick but R13 is more readily available then R12.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Good point. And I suppose caulking around the bilco doors won't hurt either.


 Stopping drafts is always a good idea. With out heating the basement or the floor you seldom really get to comfort.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> DeeEyeWhy said:
> 
> 
> > Good point. And I suppose caulking around the bilco doors won't hurt either.
> ...


With the heating system that I have now is there an easy way to heat the basement or am I looking at a costly project?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> With the heating system that I have now is there an easy way to heat the basement or am I looking at a costly project?


 Post a question in HVAC with some info about your system. I don't think I have seen a steam system except the one that heated my first school.:smile:


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> Then build an insulated door at the bottom of the stairs to the bilco doors.


Can the insulated door be built to seal off the bilco door area with a guaranteed 100 percent seal from the remainder of the basement? If not, when air from the basement area reaches the frigid bilco area expect possible condensation and mold.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Can the insulated door be built to seal off the bilco door area with a guaranteed 100 percent seal from the remainder of the basement? If not, when air from the basement area reaches the frigid bilco area expect possible condensation and mold.


 You lost me. I would consider the bilco door area to be the same as any drafty front porch out side the home.
You are worried about warm moist air getting to a cold area. That is what they have now.:glasses:


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Nealtw said:
> 
> 
> > Then build an insulated door at the bottom of the stairs to the bilco doors.
> ...


Would keeping the humidity before 50% using a dehumidifier help avoid this?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Would keeping the humidity before 50% using a dehumidifier help avoid this?


 Newer houses with all the bells and whistles can still have a moisture issue in the basement. You never mentioned a moisture problem and if it is not a problem, don't go down rabbit holes.

So one other thought . If you have a boiler in the basement, you likely have a lot of radiant heat just coming off that. If you stopped all the drafts and added insulation to the exterior, that radiant heat would get to the floor.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Hi do you mean R13? I see that they are both 3.5in thick but R13 is more readily available then R12.


R12 or R 13 are pretty much the same thing. Both are 3.5 inches. Nominal differences. I think R13 is American and R12 is Cdn.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> You lost me. I would consider the bilco door area to be the same as any drafty front porch out side the home.
> You are worried about warm moist air getting to a cold area. That is what they have now.:glasses:


Not what they have now, but cold air entering the bilco doors going down into the basement. That's why they want to insulate the floor.

The cold air will flow down the stairs and warm air will rise to the upper portion of the bilco area contacting the cold door area forming condensation.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Not what they have now, but cold air entering the bilco doors going down into the basement. That's why they want to insulate the floor.


 One of us is lost, I thought it was me so now it must be your turn.:biggrin2:
The cold draft is coming from the bilco doors. I suggested an insulated door at the bottom of the opening with the intention of stopping the air flow.
So air entering the bilco door would not make it to the basement.:vs_whistle:


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> One of us is lost, I thought it was me so now it must be your turn.:biggrin2:
> The cold draft is coming from the bilco doors. I suggested an insulated door at the bottom of the opening with the intention of stopping the air flow.
> So air entering the bilco door would not make it to the basement.:vs_whistle:


As I mentioned, seal it 100 percent and you are good to go. The only way I've seen anything sealed even close to 100 percent is when canning fruits and vegetables. Good luck with caulking, weather strip and all that good stuff on the market.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

SeniorSitizen said:


> As I mentioned, seal it 100 percent and you are good to go. The only way I've seen anything sealed even close to 100 percent is when canning fruits and vegetables.


That is goofy, how on earth can that be worse than what is there now.
Adding rabbit holes never help the person trying to learn something.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

You have probably heard that single pane glass windows are very cold and lose a lot of heat. What is mentioned far less is that your foundation walls, poured concrete or blocks, are about the same, terrible. As Neal mentioned you are dumping a lot of unintended heat into that basement but most of it is just going right out through the walls. If you air seal and insulate the rim around the ceiling of the basement, easy since it isn't finished, and block that Bilco entrance the basement will be warmer. Go the next step and insulate the above grade wall (plus a foot or so below grade) and suddenly you will have warm floors all over the house above because the basement will be warm. And your heating costs will go down because you will no longer be wasting that heat trying to keep the neighbors warm.

The air sealing, the rim insulation, and covering the Bilco opening are first and will make a difference all by themselves.

Bud


Note, seal as best you can, doesn't have to be 100%. Outside air is very dry and you will not be looking at a winter moisture problem when that basement is warmer.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Remember this? Probably didn't happen in the dead of winter when mold doesn't do well in cold temperatures, but in the spring when moisture levels and dew point temperatures increased and cool nights cooled the concrete to below DP temp.


http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/cold-room-insulation-finishing-options-553969/


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Remember this? Probably didn't happen in the dead of winter when mold doesn't do well in cold temperatures, but in the spring when moisture levels and dew point temperatures increased and cool nights cooled the concrete to below DP temp.
> 
> 
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/cold-room-insulation-finishing-options-553969/


Rabbit holes do nothing for the OP and what ever problem they are looking for answers for. That link is about moisture leaking into an unheated room.

If you think the wrong suggestions have been made, just make one of your own.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> You have probably heard that single pane glass windows are very cold and lose a lot of heat. What is mentioned far less is that your foundation walls, poured concrete or blocks, are about the same, terrible. As Neal mentioned you are dumping a lot of unintended heat into that basement but most of it is just going right out through the walls. If you air seal and insulate the rim around the ceiling of the basement, easy since it isn't finished, and block that Bilco entrance the basement will be warmer. Go the next step and insulate the above grade wall (plus a foot or so below grade) and suddenly you will have warm floors all over the house above because the basement will be warm. And your heating costs will go down because you will no longer be wasting that heat trying to keep the neighbors warm.
> 
> The air sealing, the rim insulation, and covering the Bilco opening are first and will make a difference all by themselves.
> 
> ...


So first step what kind of door should I get to close and insulate the bilco entrance?

BTW,

Thank you all for the help and suggestions.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> Rabbit holes do nothing for the OP and what ever problem they are looking for answers for. That link is about moisture leaking into an unheated room.
> 
> If you think the wrong suggestions have been made, just make one of your own.


Condensation was the problem as can be clearly seen where it is worse the farther away from the building line where the concrete got colder and reached dew point temperature.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Condensation was the problem as can be clearly seen where it is worse the farther away from the building line where the concrete got colder and reached dew point temperature.


 Really,lain: now you are talking about a different thread.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Making improvements in a basement start with a review of those moisture issues that are being discussed, we need some pictures of what you have. I went back through the thread and we don't know if this is a concrete foundation with a concrete floor or a stone foundation with a dirt floor. Tell us more. For now I will assume a concrete or block foundation with a concrete floor. Bilcos were often used on older homes so I could be wrong.

One approach to closing off that Bilco opening would be a pressure treated wood frame sealed against the foundation with a frame opening sized to accommodate an exterior rated door. Height may be an issue and some of the contractors who have done this may have to advise. Again those pictures will help.

I also have little experience with steam heating but from my reading the pipes need to be well insulated from the cold. Just speculating but, if those pipes are subject to a cold environment the system may be operating at a lower efficiency than desired. Some pictures of that system and the pipes that distribute the heat would be interesting.

Bud


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> Making improvements in a basement start with a review of those moisture issues that are being discussed, we need some pictures of what you have. I went back through the thread and we don't know if this is a concrete foundation with a concrete floor or a stone foundation with a dirt floor. Tell us more. For now I will assume a concrete or block foundation with a concrete floor. Bilcos were often used on older homes so I could be wrong.
> 
> One approach to closing off that Bilco opening would be a pressure treated wood frame sealed against the foundation with a frame opening sized to accommodate an exterior rated door. Height may be an issue and some of the contractors who have done this may have to advise. Again those pictures will help.
> 
> ...


Hi Bud I have a brick foundation with an unsealed concrete floor. I will try to take some pictures today and attach them.

So far I have these initial steps insulating the basement:

1). Insulating Rim Joists. I found R10 2" thick rigid insulation, that seems to be the correct one for this job. along with spray foam to insulating around the grooves of the insulation. Do I install the insulation with adhesive or screws?
2). Install insulated exterior door (with pressure treated wood frame) in entry way to prevent heat escape from bilco doors.
3). Replace old single pane windows with new double pane. Any specific windows? or just any double pane that will fit in the space?

Thanks again


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Here's a Q&A on your topic and mentions the condensation issue (or non-issue).
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...door-prevent-heat-loss-and-moist-air-transfer

Brick and concrete is good.

Bud


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> Here's a Q&A on your topic and mentions the condensation issue (or non-issue).
> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...door-prevent-heat-loss-and-moist-air-transfer
> 
> Brick and concrete is good.
> ...


Thanks, Please see my last post. I added some overview information as to the suggested resolution steps. Please let me know if I am on par with what needs to occur.

Also please note: I do have moisture issues in my basement. Over the years I have taken steps to improve this on the exterior of my home and the issue is not nearly as bad, but i do see some floor moisture in this very area of my basement near the bilco door when receiving heavy rain as it is the lowest point in the basement. i was given suggestions for french drains and a sump pump, but albeit important, it is off topic for this discussion.

Thanks


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

If the basement window/s are important then you might consider new double pane, but most I see they just add a layer of plastic or cover them with a piece of rigid foam board.

Keep working on the moisture. After the rim is insulated and sealed you can consider a layer of rigid insulation against the brick foundation. In terms of importance it is the foundation area that is above grade (plus a foot or so) where most heat is lost through those walls. The rigid foam in both the rim and foundation area can be glued in place. The foam for the rim can be cur ¼" short all the way around, leaves an easy gap for the can foam to fill and seal. You can cut it tight if you are good J.

Against the foundation walls, depending upon the adhesive you use, you would need to hold the rigid in place until the glue is secure. I chose to add a 2x4 at the 4'down mark and I rest my 4x8 panels on that and brace them with a board or two from above. I'm using 1" rigid with foil on both sides. It is a Dow foam board but not their Thermax which is the only one rated to be left exposed. Another long topic that we can go over after the Bilco is closed off with a new door and the rim is insulated.

The 2" rigid you mentioned may need to be covered (drywall or other) to meet fire codes but that can be added later.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Also please note: I do have moisture issues in my basement. Over the years I have taken steps to improve this on the exterior of my home and the issue is not nearly as bad, but i do see some floor moisture in this very area of my basement near the bilco door when receiving heavy rain as it is the lowest point in the basement. i was given suggestions for french drains and a sump pump, but albeit important, it is off topic for this discussion.
> 
> Thanks


Moisture issues
leaky doors? 
Leaky wall?
up thru floor?
other?

Concrete floor. out of level, built at different levels or?????

Bilco entrance from basement height and width?? and is the floor level there.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> DeeEyeWhy said:
> 
> 
> > Also please note: I do have moisture issues in my basement. Over the years I have taken steps to improve this on the exterior of my home and the issue is not nearly as bad, but i do see some floor moisture in this very area of my basement near the bilco door when receiving heavy rain as it is the lowest point in the basement. i was given suggestions for french drains and a sump pump, but albeit important, it is off topic for this discussion.
> ...


Luck have it that we have heavy rain today in my area so I will take pics.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> Moisture issues
> leaky doors?
> Leaky wall?
> up thru floor?
> ...


Here are two pictures of the bilco door entrance. You see the steps and floor near it are wet.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> Moisture issues
> leaky doors?
> Leaky wall?
> up thru floor?
> ...


Here is the area in question under my kitchen. I took a panorama photo. The moisture on the walls are old. I just never removed them.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Here are two pictures of the bilco door entrance. You see the steps and floor near it are wet.


 I would think the dehumidifier is keeping that at bay. 
Before getting into sumps pumps and what ever you have to go out and look at ground level, lower than foundation top and lower than bilco curb.
ground slopes away from house. gutters downspouts? water directed away from house. 

Any wet foundation wall anywhere else in the basement. Or base of wall at the floor.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks for the pictures. To make you, maybe, feel better, mine is newer and dry but it became the junk collector over the years. New rule started a few years ago is for every one thing that goes down there 3 things must leave. It is working but there will be a major clean up week this summer, fortunately I'll have the three kids to help, much is theirs anyway.

Back to your basement, that Bilco entrance is an issue but the door can be added at any point. If necessary it can be left open when drying is needed.

Bud

PS, not sure what the outside looks like but could you consider a dog house over the top of the Bilco entrance to shed the water.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> Thanks for the pictures. To make you, maybe, feel better, mine is newer and dry but it became the junk collector over the years. New rule started a few years ago is for every one thing that goes down there 3 things must leave. It is working but there will be a major clean up week this summer, fortunately I'll have the three kids to help, much is theirs anyway.
> 
> Back to your basement, that Bilco entrance is an issue but the door can be added at any point. If necessary it can be left open when drying is needed.
> 
> ...


Bud, lol... My wife says the basement is a disgrace and wont do gown there, so for now withstanding the view its my man cave, lol... She keeps asking me to put in a family room for the kids to have their games and such so on the journey I go.

P.S. Outside of the bilco door is my patio so unless it was something aesthetically pleasing my wife wouldn't go for it.


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Here are two pictures of the bilco door entrance. You see the steps and floor near it are wet.


Is that daylight at the seams of the bilco? That could be the problem right there!


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> 1). Insulating Rim Joists. I found R10 2" thick rigid insulation, that seems to be the correct one for this job. along with spray foam to insulating around the grooves of the insulation. Do I install the insulation with adhesive or screws?


Yes. This is a great start and you can just use a dab of adhesive from a caulk gun to attach the foam. Just use one meant for foam as some of the construction adhesives will melt the foam.



DeeEyeWhy said:


> 2). Install insulated exterior door (with pressure treated wood frame) in entry way to prevent heat escape from bilco doors.


This will make a huge difference in stopping the cold air coming in. It's also a real security upgrade.



DeeEyeWhy said:


> 3). Replace old single pane windows with new double pane. Any specific windows? or just any double pane that will fit in the space?


This one is a little more debatable if you consider the cost vs return. You can get a similar effect by just sealing a little better around the window or adding another layer to act similarly to a storm window. I've seen those hair dryer shrink plastics used or plexi if you don't have any need for egress. They also make snap in storms that go on the inside. That could work well here if you can get a good seal around the edges.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

NotYerUncleBob2 said:


> DeeEyeWhy said:
> 
> 
> > 1). Insulating Rim Joists. I found R10 2" thick rigid insulation, that seems to be the correct one for this job. along with spray foam to insulating around the grooves of the insulation. Do I install the insulation with adhesive or screws?
> ...


Hey guys before I start any of this insulation work do you think I should have a sump pump installed to deal with the moisture? Right now I have no moisture controls in the basement other than a dehumidifier.

Thanks


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

A sump pit and pump is always a good addition even in a seemingly dry basement, water comes from sources other than through the floors and foundation. Just a few that I have had to deal with:
Water pipes breaking, water pipe joints letting go, frozen and burst water pipes, washing machine leaks, washing machine hoses, showers overflowing, sinks overflowing, leaks in the roof, wind/rain/broken window. Fortunately none were major or had a good drain in place.

If you install a sump pit review the methods used when Radon mitigation is involved.

Bud


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Bud9051 said:


> A sump pit and pump is always a good addition even in a seemingly dry basement, water comes from sources other than through the floors and foundation. Just a few that I have had to deal with:
> Water pipes breaking, water pipe joints letting go, frozen and burst water pipes, washing machine leaks, washing machine hoses, showers overflowing, sinks overflowing, leaks in the roof, wind/rain/broken window. Fortunately none were major or had a good drain in place.
> 
> If you install a sump pit review the methods used when Radon mitigation is involved.
> ...


Thanks bud.

Do you think I should dry-lok my walls before putting on the rigid insulation? The walls already had a coat of dry-lok but over the years they started to peel and chip and I was wondering if it would be a good idea to seal the walls before installing the insulation.

Thanks


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Drylock when applied directly to a clean concrete surface is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier, which is fine as the rigid foam is the same, a vapor retarder. Allowing a small amount of drying to the inside is good and easily handled along with conditioning the inside air. Adding a second coat to an old layer of dry-lokl, my guess is it will not work well as designed. Thus save your money for other improvements. Now, all of this is mute if you have a water issue, actual water leaking in. If so you may need to rethink how those wall built.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Drylock when applied directly to a clean concrete surface is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier, which is fine as the rigid foam is the same, a vapor retarder. Allowing a small amount of drying to the inside is good and easily handled along with conditioning the inside air. Adding a second coat to an old layer of dry-lokl, my guess is it will not work well as designed. Thus save your money for other improvements. Now, all of this is mute if you have a water issue, actual water leaking in. If so you may need to rethink how those wall built.
> 
> Bud


 We don't do bilco doors so we always have a landing outside the door with drainage. How would you deal with sealing a door threshold with out dealing with water? I guess that was your dog house suggestion.


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## DeeEyeWhy (Jan 19, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> Bud9051 said:
> 
> 
> > Drylock when applied directly to a clean concrete surface is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier, which is fine as the rigid foam is the same, a vapor retarder. Allowing a small amount of drying to the inside is good and easily handled along with conditioning the inside air. Adding a second coat to an old layer of dry-lokl, my guess is it will not work well as designed. Thus save your money for other improvements. Now, all of this is mute if you have a water issue, actual water leaking in. If so you may need to rethink how those wall built.
> ...


Outside of my bilco doors is a new patio that was put in last year. The patio slopes away from the bilco door and the house on all sides. I think the rain is coming in through the bilco door itself which I guess is where the doghouse suggestion came in. Unfortunately that is a no no aesthetically speaking. Unless we can find something visually appealing


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DeeEyeWhy said:


> Outside of my bilco doors is a new patio that was put in last year. The patio slopes away from the bilco door and the house on all sides. I think the rain is coming in through the bilco door itself which I guess is where the doghouse suggestion came in. Unfortunately that is a no no aesthetically speaking. Unless we can find something visually appealing


Can you take a few shots of the door from the outside. I have an Idea for drainage but a last resort deal.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Dee,
I often like to tag my searches with "pictures" at the end, probably says something about me. But here's some eye candy, search "How to cover a Bilco door pictures" and then click more images. Lots of ideas.

Bud


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