# Carpenter ant advice



## dcentuori

Short version: Trying to determine if we have a serious issue or not. Wife is ready to call exterminator; I'm not.

Longer version: Basically, for the past few years, every spring we start seeing ants, mainly in the attic. Not a huge amount, but enough to want to do something about it. So each spring about this time of year, I've gone outside with a flashlight and find a trail or two coming to the house. I go with diatomaceous earth, boric acid powder; maybe a spray too; and then they go away. Until the next spring.

Seems to me a seasonal pattern, and each year foraging ants find a new way into the home. Unless we have nests *inside *and these are foragers going *out* and not *in*! (I know correlation does not necessarily mean causation, and it's possible that my treatments are doing nothing and the ants would naturally wind down after springtime.)

We had a particularly wet spring here in NE Ohio, so that may be increasing ant activity inside our house now in 2011. That coupled with this being at least the 3rd consecutive spring we've gone through this is making my wife concerned that we have a serious problem. Tonight I asked her how many--she said she's squashing 9 or 10 a day. Which to me, doesn't sound bad. But she's obviously more concerned than I am. I just don't think it's time to get in an exterminator for $800 or whatever in treatments, and what I'm doing each year is enough. (And this year, I'm determined to find the nest that is sending foragers into our house!) 

So....does it sound like I'm underreacting? Any advice at this point?

Thanks!

Dante


----------



## user1007

Not all bugs are bad but granted a nuisance. The ants you describe are tiny, black? And seasonal? Try cinnaman (sp?) in with your nice mix of relatively harmless ways to keep them out. 

The deal is that if they are the seasonal ants looking for things in your kitchen? They are also chewing the coatings of flowers like peonies so they can bloom. 

I learned over the years to just drown the spring ants in my kitchen with a spritzer bottle. Worked as well as insectisides. They will do their thing and be done soon for the year soon anyhow. 

Only thing I cannot imagine them being attracted to as far up as your attic unless tree sap from the framing if you live in new construction.

From my experience carpenter ants don't just invite themselves for dinner each Spring and go away for the rest of the year. 

Hate to say this, but take the spouse advice and call an exterminator if you want to find out what is going on and what you are facing. A good one will cost you a fraction of what you could waste on DIY box store chemicals you really do not want to be storing yourself anyhow. A good exterminator will have licenses for applying things you should not try on your own.


----------



## PAbugman

It is difficult to tell with carpenter ants whether or not they are foraging from the exterior, or living indoors. Carpenter ants do forage long distances and are especially active in the spring. Since you don't see them year round indoors, that is a good sign indicating an exterior nest, but not necessarily. They may be living in attic voids, roofing, etc and simply change their travel patterns as time goes on. Apparently you are not seeing sawdust, frass, etc-that is also a good sign although they don't always chew the wood if they find a void space that they like.

Carpenter ants like to nest in mature trees. When the colony gets too large, a new queen develops and takes a cross-section of the colony with her. They relocate en masse and start a new colony called a "satellite colony". These satellites are usually the ones infesting and living inside house. 

Learn about Termidor. Treat the exterior perimeter where foundation wall meets soil, patio slab, etc. Treat porches, soffits, where siding meets foundation wall, etc. Treat the trunks of trees, about 4-6 feet up from ground. Termidor is non-repellent so the ants won't avoid it as they do the products that you are using. Termidor can kill colonies as the foragers must return to the nest and do pass it to the rest of the colony. Termidor is labeled for exterior use only. Exterior treatments should eventually destroy interior colonies.

If you hire a pest control company, make sure they use Termidor outside. We treat carpenter ants as a one shot treatment for residential. We rarely get called back for warranty service. It can be bought on line, though I've never done so, nor do I know anyone who has. The advertised packaging is the original manufacturer. Do an internet search and see.


----------



## dcentuori

Thanks for the quick replies. Here's some more info in response to some of your comments, if it helps.

I'm fairly certain these are carpenter ants. And from my admittedly amateur's eye, I think everything we've seen in the house has been a major worker, although I've seen major and minor in the ant trails outside. If it means anything, one trail does seem to have many more majors come to think of it.

Also, our attic is not finished, but almost. Has a floor down and electricity and is insulated on the roof. So there can be plenty of voids there. And my wife is an artist and art teacher and uses that space as a creative space so she has lots of supplies that could be of interest to ants. 

One of the trails is entering between the brick facing of the house and the siding right by the front door. (I know I have to re-caulk that; it's shrunk all over.) Straight shot vertical to attic; but if ants don't usually go up, then that may not matter.

We did have an ash tree removed 5 years ago and there was a big carpenter ant nest inside, but I had thought we got it, as we saw no more activity. The stump, although cut to the ground, is still there. We couldn't grind it due to its proximity to our deck. I also drenched the stump with something I bought back then, and have been trying to break it down with one of those stump enzyme things.

Also, we know there also used to be a big tree in the back yard that was removed a long time ago and the remains of that stump we can tell are still under the lawn.

So there's the mature trees story--at least on our property; there's plenty more within 100 yds!

I googled Termidor and it seems too good to be true; yet I"m reading all these customer reviews that said one application and ants are gone. I may try this after more research, just in case those were all stockholders...

Part of my reluctance to call a pro is that I'm pretty sure now we got taken advantage of a few houses ago. We had just moved to Toledo from Orlando, and my wife saw a few ants so we called the exterminator. After living in Florida for 4 years, you didn't mess around with ants or anything, and if you didn't have a pest guy coming every month, you were bound to get some kind of infestation. So I didn't think twice about agreeing. Called a national company and the sales guy came first to check it out and gave us the run down. Basically we had a $800 year contract, they drilled holes under the windows where we saw ants, even the dead ones and shot something underneath. He baited some carpenter ant nests outside and came back every month to spray the perimeter. I've read up in lots of places now, and in retrospect that just seems wrong.

OK, it's 11:20pm; time to get the flashlight and go outside...

Thanks,

Dante


----------



## dcentuori

Well, Termidor looks like a good bet here. But I've also come across Dominion 2L which appears to work well too, and is almost 1/2 the price. It has a different active ingredient (Imidacloprid instead of Fipronil), is there any advantage to Dominion?

Thanks,

Dante


----------



## plazomat

dcentuori said:


> Well, Termidor looks like a good bet here. But I've also come across Dominion 2L which appears to work well too, and is almost 1/2 the price. It has a different active ingredient (Imidacloprid instead of Fipronil), is there any advantage to Dominion?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dante


I am waiting to use Dominon on ants as well, but from every study I read the Fipronil is much better at delayed kill so the dominioe effect is much better.

I have been baiting with a fipronil based bait and love the results thus far, but my problem is huge and the battle will be long..

PLAZ


----------



## PAbugman

Fipronil is my first choice for ants; Bifenthrin and imidacloprid would be tied for second. Phantom would be my second choice, but you can't use it outdoors by the labeled directions.


----------



## plazomat

PAbugman said:


> Fipronil is my first choice for ants; Bifenthrin and imidacloprid would be tied for second. Phantom would be my second choice, but you can't use it outdoors by the labeled directions.


PABugman, I have access to both via the internet. I have been using the comercialy available Combat and it seems to work. Would the results be any better with say a maxforce professional product ant bait gel.

Also do you recomend any granular baits for broadcast over lawn? I have been using Advance Carpenter Ant Bait (0.011% abamectin B1) but it is quite expensive and looking for an alternative..I will be baiting for a while.

They do love it and accept it readily..

Plaz


----------



## dcentuori

I've been using the over-the-counter Combat ant killing gel, 0.001% fipronil, while I've been doing my research and it seems to be helping. I targeted 2 areas where there was obvious ant trails going into the siding outside. Lately activity is dramatically reduced (and my wife hasn't said anything about ants in about 10 days, so I guess she's seeing less! :biggrin I will still go with Termidor, as I never was able to figure out which way they were going! It was hard tracing the trail--they seemed to wind all over my bushes (like little Billy running and errand in Family Circus) and I just lose their path.

Besides, as I said in my first post, correlation does not mean causation! It could be coincidence; I want to end this once and for all!

My only concern is that we grow some berries and our vegetable garden near the side of the house and I don't know about how the spray in that one-foot zone could get in the roots.

Dante


----------



## plazomat

From what I have been told from a few reputable Pest Control People, don't stop the baiting cause you stopped seeing ants.

I will be baiting all summer here. I am also using a granular, I don't see any ants around some piles but the pile is gone the next day, while a pile a few feet away is untouched..

PLAZO


----------



## bubbler

dcentuori said:


> ...she said she's squashing 9 or 10 a day. Which to me, doesn't sound bad. But she's obviously more concerned than I am. I just don't think it's time to get in an exterminator for $800 or whatever in treatments...
> 
> So....does it sound like I'm underreacting? Any advice at this point?


I was finding about the same number... I called an exterminator.

Here in Eastern MA (typically expensive) they wanted $230 for a Termidor perimeter treatment which guaranteed no ants for 1-yr, they also threw in termite indicator stakes (apparently termites eat the material in the stake, so seeing it disintegrate indicates activity along the foundation)

Even though I can buy Termidor online for about $60 for 3-5X the QTY the pro is going to use, I still went with them for the treatment.

This particular Co does not advocate putting anything into the house itself, they do it all w/ a perimeter treatment and claim that it works for complete removal of nests, even if they are in the house, because the ants will still be going outside thru this stuff. This particular company is at the top of Angie's List and had about a hundred positive reviews, including for carpenter ants.


----------



## plazomat

At $230 I would have them over, termidor has a 10yr half life or something like that. In canada they nail me for 500 and all they do is spray a repellant insectide that works for a few weeks and only kills a small number.


----------



## PAbugman

Termidor as a subterranean application for termites will last for some years, depending on environmental factors. As a surface spray for ants-maybe a year under protected areas, but generally less than that.


----------



## plazomat

Bugman, what is breaking down the termidor? sunlight, rain? how often to retreat then?

I wish the pest guys around me were half as informed as you are  I would not likely be trying to do it myself....

Thanks
Plaz


----------



## bubbler

plazomat said:


> Bugman, what is breaking down the termidor? sunlight, rain? how often to retreat then?
> 
> I wish the pest guys around me were half as informed as you are  I would not likely be trying to do it myself....


FWIW, the service I used recommends re-application whenever the area is disturbed for construction/repair, or once per year.

They claim that reapplication yearly is "maintenance" which would imply that the solution lasts at least a year.

They also claim it takes 30 days to eliminate the ants, but that often results occur in as few as 2 weeks... they "guarantee" that after 30 days you will see no ants in your home--though I assume the guarantee is limited simply to re-treatment of the area, so in event that the chemical doesn't work, I'm not sure what else they might try to do?

They sprayed 12" up the foundation and 12" out from the foundation, they also spot treated any ant hills within about 12" of the foundation.

...treatment was on Thursday, I had already seen a dramatic reduction in the number of ants, probably due to my own application of various consumer pesticides... I believe that Wed/Thur I saw zero ants... last night (Fri) I saw one in the living room... today there we've found two on our second floor (to date we've seen none up there, so this is new activity).

I can see where they are coming in, I believe they probably are walking right in around a new electric outlet I had installed last fall... I have vinyl over original wood shingle, the electrician installed an old work box, so there is probably a fairly large gap around it that they are simply walking in around... once I see no ants for at least a week I plan to take apart that area and seal with spray foam. It's also possible that small picture window (20"x20") may have a leak that is wetting the original wood siding or something similar, I've got a carpenter coming who is going to replace that window with a vinyl, replace any rotted wood, wrap with aluminum and seal with silicon.


----------



## PAbugman

I believe that the label allows for 2 treatments annually. That would be above ground applications, such as for ants. Termite treatments can be done as needed. 

Many elements break down modern day pesticides. Sunlight, rain, microbes, dirt/dust accumulation on treated surface, etc. Residual life varies depending on the spot being treated. Treating under a porch roof will give much longer residual life than treating around the perimeter of the porch, although you should do both for effect. You can see how the 2 sites are impacted differently by the rain and sun. Treating over top of a cement patio slab leaves the chemical to much exposure. Treating into the crack between that same slab and the house will minimize exposure. Do both, though. You get the idea. You see why there is no one answer as to the residual life of an application. It will vary greatly within the same site. 

Sunlight is probably the worst. Rain doesn't fall in the perimeter of the house as it does further away. Also, I like to treat under soffits, porch roofs, etc. as the sunshine is minimal in those areas, and rain should not affect it at all. Even when rained on, if the application had time to dry, it does bond to the soil anyway. Termidor stays put, especially in subterranean application.

We give 6 month carpenter ant warranty with one (residential) application and we rarely get called back. Termidor is almost too good to be true. It is the chemistry and and how it affects ants/termites, not the toxicity, as that is low. Modern day science and chemistry are bringing effective products to our modern day life; I'm counting on them to bring us an effective bed-bug product. I've been in the pest control industry for 30+ years; 2010 was the first time in my life that I saw a live bed bug. These guys snuck up on us, and have the advantage for now.


----------



## plazomat

Thanks Bugman - awesome advice as always...

PLAZ


----------



## dcentuori

OK, Termidor on its way! And not a moment too soon. After a very wet spring, we've had several dry and hot days. Coincidence or not, now family is finding many more ants in the house. No trail, but frequent appearances along floor or trim. Past few nights I've found no activity along the outside trails I found, so they may have a new path or are inside 
Wife told me she is calling the exterminator next week, so I hope my case is on the quicker end of the range and she sees something fast. I can't seem to convince her that after my research, I should be able to get this under control this year and also save money.

Should get the delivery Friday,and hopefully no rain in the forecast so I can get right to it!

Dante


----------



## bubbler

dcentuori said:


> OK, Termidor on its way!
> 
> ... I can't seem to convince her that after my research, I should be able to get this under control this year and also save money



Let her read this--

About a week after my treatment there are ZERO ants in my house. 

The Pro used Termidor SC -- the exact same bottle I bought myself off the internet. He mixed it as per the instructions on the bottle in a regular sprayer, using regular water... then it took 15 mins to spray around the foundation and ant ant mounts within a foot of the house.. 

Good luck!


----------



## dcentuori

OK, I just came from the attic where there were a bunch of CA's up there. Seemed to clustered near the area under a window, so would not be surprised if they are in a void up there. But not ready to pull away insulation as is it near my wife's art supplies.

With this many in the attic, do you think enough would venture into the Termidor zone or should I just order Phantom too right now?

Thanks, 

Dante


----------



## bubbler

dcentuori said:


> With this many in the attic, do you think enough would venture into the Termidor zone or should I just order Phantom too right now?


Well, I would certainly put down the termidor regardless... 

I assume that at least some are foraging outside and that this is a satellite nest, to have a big nest inside w/o any foragers outside means they have have a regular source of water--you should check for leaks (roof, plumbing, etc).

Also, I know you aren't suggesting it, but for the sake of saying it--termidor is for outdoor use only...

I don't really know what's effective for indoor control, so I'll leave that to PAbugman


----------



## dcentuori

Yes, yes Termidor is outdoor only! Thanks for checking just in case. Mid thread, it could sound like I was planning otherwise.

I'm thinking the same about the foragers. I think I just spotted one just now outside; big guy coming out from behind the siding by my garage door, a few feet under and the the side of the attic window where I saw the activity.

We haven't had too much rain lately, but last weekend I did raise the storm windows, so maybe with the screen down, something is getting past the sash, and maybe that's why they've suddenly congregated there. How long does it take for a satellite nest to pop up?

As for indoors, I've seen Phantom recommended by PAbugman.

Dante


----------



## plazomat

Phantom on the inside has been recomended multiple times by Pros to me as well..it just isn't available to me here in Canada..

Plaz


----------



## dcentuori

Question about effects. I've been biding time with Combat Source Kill Max (.001% Fipronil) to modest results. Last night I baited all around their stomping grounds on the floor under the window and they went right for it. Some went onto the syringe like crack addicts! This morning I see some ants that look drunk--walking in circles, or suddenly jumping around when disturbed. Is that a sign the toxin is working? Can we expect to see a lot of ants walking around like this when I treat with Termidor? That would be good to point out to my family if they are expecting ants to disappear in 1 day, that if they still see ants, but they're walking around drunk, we're in good shape.

I do need to re-caulk my house. Just about everywhere windows, doors or siding meet frames or masonry, I have gaps. But I feel I should wait until after Termidor treatment--anyone have suggestions on how long?

(I know, I failed on basic prevention by not filling gaps or trimming bushes!)

Thanks,

Dante


----------



## plazomat

I would wait to re-caulk until you get it under control, I would not want to cut off the ants access to the outside if that is where the ant killer is....however maybe a pro can chime in cause I have a similar situation.

With the Combat, I made the mistake of not baiting for long enough, there is usually a second or third wave of buggers once the initial has stopped..

I just keep bait around and freshen it up when the activity resumes...I was told by a pro that one time baiting is rarely enough, if the problem is old enough and the colony is big enough they told me to keep baiting all summer to keep the pressure on the colony.

Remember that the activity you see could be one of many trails to the same colony.

PLAZ


----------



## PAbugman

Keep baiting. Carpenter ants are hard to bait so if you are having success then keep at it. Don't use foggers (repellent and will work against termidor and baiting). Don't move insulation or disrupt them-they will go defensive and move somewhere else. 

Termidor is labeled for exterior use only, but that does not mean it is unsafe or too toxic for indoor use; it means that the company simply asked only for exterior labeling. It means much less time in the testing phase and quicker to market. In an unfinished attic, meaning not a living space, I would not hesitate to use Termidor. It will be safe and very effective. I, as a commercial applicator do not violate the label, but if you do the attic all you will harm is the carpenter ants. 

Remeber-the active ingredient is Fipronil which is in Frontline and in flea collars. Toxicity is very low.


----------



## dcentuori

Thanks. I was thinking that same thing about disturbing the insulation. Good my intuition was on the mark!

Our attic is semi-finished, and my wife uses it as an art studio, so I won't use the Termidor up there. But since I have an idea now of the interior traffic, I'll use Phantom.

Baited again up there last night and activity was very low.

Termidor should arrive today, but we have scattered thunderstorms in the forecast and don't want to risk it. I'll be patient, but have to sell that to my wife and kids!

Thanks,
Dante


----------



## PAbugman

You've done the research and have a good strategy. It's time to do the job. You will learn more as you treat and gauge results. Conitnue observing and monitoring. Treat the base of nearby trees, about 4-6 feet up from ground as well. Once the chemical dries, it stays put even in rain.


----------



## dcentuori

OK, here's a dilemma. Label on Termidor says not to treat within one foot of the dripline of edible plants. Problem is that we do have raspberries and strawberries and some vegetable garden plants within that zone. So I will have large portions of my foundation and deck untreated.

I can't imagine we're the only people in this situation. What can I do? I don't want to remove all my plants; is there another treatment I can use in those parts?

Is the issue only about the wet spraying, and I"m OK if my plants grow back later, or more about the treatment being in the soil long term?

Thanks,
Dante


----------



## Security101

I've had this issue before quite a few times - it's most likely the moisture in the walls etc bringing them in (nothing against the chemical remedy's out there - that works too, but it doesn't solve the problem permanently)

We had two places in our older house. A spot in the back of the house which allowed water to get around the brick and into the wall and a leaking shower/tub on the other side of the house.

We had carpenter ants in both general areas and had no idea why, we tried the above mentioned chemical solutions over and over with regular repetition.

One day I found the ants heading up the brick wall outside and I grabbed a ladder to see where they were going - yep, big void and water could (and did) go directly into the wall.

I repaired the area carefully, did a final spray of chem's and wow - no more ants on that side of house. Went and checked the shower area and found the other problemed area - replaced the shower surround and again - no more ants.

We have been ant free for a couple years now with no chem's or traps.

Just a thought - but I would solve the source first - and see what happens from there :wink:

Jim


----------



## dcentuori

Thanks. Yeah, I'm working on the source too. So far, over the years, I've seen ants to my house in only 4-5 different locations; but that's not to say there are other spots. And I could maybe only seeing ants that are going into siding voids and the ones I see inside are from something else. One of my fears is that I have rotting wood somewhere under my siding that I'll never be able to inspect, so I see the advantage to chemicals. But I'm not thinking of spraying willy nilly, but doing the research. (Man, I remember what my father did when I was a kid--from that "man conquers nature" school of thought from the 50's!)

Since the only interior space I've seen ants in any organized regularity is that spot under the attic window, I'll start with that window for inspection, but will wait until after I treat it so I don't disperse a possible nest. I know the most recent owner did a complete tear down roof, and re-insulated about 2/3 of the attic back in 2005, so I have to think that if there is any carpenter ant nest in the attic, it is no more than 6 years old, whatever that's worth!

I know I need to caulk and catch up on regular maintenance, which certainly contributes, but don't want to make things worse.


Dante


----------



## plazomat

How did it work out Dante?


----------



## dcentuori

*OK, the long update....*

Well, I'd love to have something to report, but if anyone reading this lives in NE Ohio, you know what the weather has been like! Unfortunately, I have not had any windows of rain-free forecasts since I got the Termidor! (Actually, I did have one window, but found out my pump spray was broken!) So I"m still waiting to do the treatment--probably next weekend by the looks of the forecast.

As for my issue with plants, I called the tech support at Termidor/BASF and understandably they can't recommend anything that goes against the label. In some areas, I could only treat the foundation, thus gaining one foot of the dripline zone, but that will, of course, provide less protection. But he seemed to think my strategy was sound--Since the places where my raspberries grow along the house are not places I've seen established trails, it is probably not too bad a risk to just not treat those areas. After this year's harvest, I'll pull out the ones nearest the house and treat the foundation only. Being a non-repellent, the ants won't be looking for a "gap" in the Termidor, but I"m still vulnerable to the random wanderings of ants. If over time this turns out to be an Achilles heel, I'll pull all the plants out and go 100%.

Interesting side note. I found old pdfs on the EPA webpage of memos to BASF. It seems from the original language on the label that the edible plant issue was only for termite treatment, not ant/perimeter spraying. EPA had them change it to the blanket warning. And just "treating around"; the one-foot dripline zone came later. Basically from what I've gleaned, it hasn't been tested specifically as a systemic in plants, so no one can say it is indeed safe, nor indeed harmful. Lack of evidence means nothing if you haven't designed a test to look for that something! I guess it is easier (and cheaper!) for BASF to just tell people to keep it one foot from the dripline than to do whatever needs to be done to be cleared for edible plants, since that is far from Termidor's main purpose.

As for Phantom, I did start spot treating inside. I sprayed all along the bottom corner where wall meets floor under that attic window and along a few places where I saw some ants. And in the voids under the insulation and some floorboards. And yes, I couldn't resist hitting some ants point blank! That was maybe a week ago, and there seems to be dead ants showing up that appear to have not been squished by my family. I just was upstairs and saw 2 or 3 walking around, so they could be from a non-Phantom area, or just walked across it. Jury is out on everything until I can get that Termidor down.

I just hope that if they did establish a satellite colony in the attic, they haven't figured out how to get to water and food w/o leaving the house. My wife has many art supplies and different media, I suppose the ants could find a way to get what they need from some of that. They are crafty. :furious:

To be continued....


----------



## bubbler

For what it's worth, and knock on wood... I'm an additional 10-12 days out from my last post and we have seen ZERO ants indoors since then (and even then I think I had said I was a week out w/o an ant), and I have seen no activity around the foundation where there previously I had seen then walking up/down the foundation constantly.

Could not be happier w/ the results so far!


----------



## dcentuori

Oh, I have no doubt this stuff will do the trick. Just being patient (as thunder rolls overhead at this moment!) The good thing is that I think my wife is on board, as no exterminator appointments have been made! And if she does call someone who would treat in this weather, I'd ask for my money back!

Dante


----------



## PAbugman

dcent: You've learned a lot and your strategy will work. When opportunity permits and you get to the hands-on part, your learning will go to the next level. Gauging results as you go will teach as well. 

Don't stress out too much about the rain. Once it dries, it stays put. Also, spray up under soffits, roof lines, etc. The rain doesn't hit that usually. The perimeter of the house is protected to an extent by rain gutters and soffits, especially where house is one story.

It was interesting to read of your research as to termite (subterranean and large volume) versus surface application regarding edible plants. What I do in those areas is to skip the soil treatment but spray of the foundation, siding a foot or so. When it dries, it stays put. 

AS a sidenote, I advise customers to not plant anything in perimeter of house that needs to be watered. If you think about it, we pay thousands of dollars for rain gutters, spouting, sloped landscaping and then we short circuit that systems by watering the perimeter.


----------



## dcentuori

Thanks for the tip about spraying under the soffit and roofline. I thought I could only do the 1-foot zone up the foundation and out in the soil. but come to think of it, the tech guy at BASF did say I should also spray around where wires come to the house (both the attachement point and wherever they enter the wall)

Not stressing over rain; just haven't had too many 24 hour dry spells. But looking very favorable for the weekend!

Also, my family found a tree in a nearby park that they said looked to have a carpenter ant nest--maybe 200 feet from our house. Possible source? I just may go out there anyway and spray the tree with Termidor, (under cover of darkness....)

Thanks,

Dante


----------



## user1007

dcentuori said:


> Also, my family found a tree in a nearby park that they said looked to have a carpenter ant nest--maybe 200 feet from our house. Possible source? I just may go out there anyway and spray the tree with Termidor, (under cover of darkness....)


I would be tempted to do the same but would remind myself that what I sprayed on my own property is different than on somebody else's and especially that owned by the public and without an applicator's license or even verbal permission. 

All it would take is for one little kid or pet to get sick and you blamed because of the illegal chemical application. Your life could turn nightmarish whether your actions led to the problem or not. I would resist the temptation and not treat the tree in the park. 

That said, the park and forestry departments for this region are diligent about trying to keep pests that threaten trees under control and would want to know about an infestation like you spotted. If they have the budget, your park arborist division will come out and deal with the tree your family noticed.


----------



## dcentuori

Oh, good point! Thanks for the advice!

I suppose non-chemical mechanical means are safe, so pouring liquid nitrogen on them might be OK! :wink:


----------



## user1007

dcentuori said:


> so pouring liquid nitrogen on them might be OK! :wink:


Not sure but you will cure them of warts!:laughing:


----------



## dcentuori

Question about treatment. I'm reading the label, and it says to apply the perimeter spray at the rate of 2 quarts per 160 linear feet. I totally understand that mathematically, but in practice, what is the "feel" for that rate? I can measure my house's perimeter and soffits and figure out, for example, that I should be 1/2 through my gallon sprayer by the time I get to the garage. But from people's experience is this more like a natural pace or to achieve this do you feel like you need to go slow or fast. (Kind of like fertilizing a lawn!) And I also understand this has its limits to precision and that rate is a guideline!

Also, I noticed the the Phantom label says it can be used for exterior spot treatment, but no mention of precaution around plants. Would it be advisable for me to use Phantom on the foundation near my raspberries?

thanks
Dante


----------



## plazomat

dcentori

I have watched a few pros (so called) spraying, there wasn't a lot of science or consistantcy when they sprayed. 

I just it wet and close to but not a point of run off. Seems to work for me when spraying.

Make sure it is dry before your kids and pets go near it and all should be well. I send mine to the inlaws for the day, gives me a chance to catchup on other things as well..

PLAZ


----------



## dcentuori

Phase I complete!

I finally had the break in weather, and Saturday morning I did the whole perimeter (minus raspberry zone), soffites, roofline, places where siding meets masonry, and around all windows and garage door. And the one tree on my property.  (I did not go into the park!) Biggest job was the deck, since I wanted to be as thorough as possible. I ended up removing every third plank and that was enough to reach from where I left off underneath, so I got complete coverage. Also did the deck supports too while I had that exposed so I could cover another ant path. Kept the kids inside while I sprayed and afterwards if they went out, told them to stay away from the house, to give plenty of margin for drying time. So now we're OK. And everyone is under orders to resist the temptation to squish ants, so they can bring that fipronil back to their nest!

I'm glad I pulled up those deck planks because I found other possible ways into the house--crawlspace vent, electrical conduit and remains of the original masonry steps off the back door. They were soaked good!

Phase Ia will be treating the interior door frames with Phantom as soon as I get a chance and Phase II will be to complete the exterior Termidor treatment when the raspberries are done later in the summer.

Label says treat twice a year. Did I do this too late to do a second treatment, or can I do this in late December? Also, due to the involvement, do you think I can get by with just one treatment under the deck per year? Does not look like much water makes its way down there (as evidenced by what appears to be a few years old raccoon poop)

Thanks to everyone's help and I will keep my fingers crossed that ant activity will cease!

Dante


----------



## PAbugman

Nice job! You were so thorough that it borders on obsessiveness, and I mean that as a compliment. No one I know, including me, ever removes deckboards. Not wrong, but you don't have to do that again. Spray in from the sides, then through the gaps in deck boards. REmember, Termidor is non-repellent. They will walk thru the chemical eventually because of that. That is the advantage of non-repellents. 

When Termidor/Phantom treatments were proposed, I resisted as it seemed way to easy. I was using sprays, dusts, drills and a $1000+ micro-injector and still getting call-backs. Now it is easier and safer, chemically and physically. 

Two times a year does not mean every 6 months. The timing is the operators choice.

Uncross your fingers, it will work. Sit back and relax.


----------



## dcentuori

That's good to hear I don't need to do that deck work again! But I had to do it that thorough the first time to leave no doubt as to where ants may be sneaking in if they don't go away. (one potential Achilles heel would be enough!)

I'll wait a few weeks before I caulk in the areas I treated; then start looking for water damage to repair.

Thanks for all the help!

Dante


----------



## dcentuori

Oh, and we are having a real bumper crop of raspberries this year, so I hope I can preserve the patch!


----------



## plazomat

*How did it work out?*

Dcentori - are they gone...


----------



## porkfriedrice

I am new to this site, so I am not sure of the rules as to whether or not I should start my own ant thread or post in this existing one. I will make a new thread if instructed. 

So beginning in the spring of this year, we started to notice a lot of ants throughout the house. At first they were the tiny black ones, and it seems with a combo of ant cups and that Ortho stuff you spray around the perimeter of the house, we got rid of those. A few weeks later, the larger black ants started to come around, which I assume are/were carpenter ants. A guy at my work has a license for Termidor, so for $310 he came out and sprayed all around the house, plus 6? feet up the sides of the house. He also put some of that bait stuff under window sills (where the ants seemed to be the most), and also put some sort of spray powdery junk in many cracks/crevices throughout the house. He also sprayed Termidor around our detached garage, though not as high since we were going to be replacing some of the rotted siding shortly after. All of this seemed to help, as the number of large black ants started to dwindle, then disappear. Also, a couple days after he came to spray, I went out the front door to get the mail and there were no joke 100+ ants out on the front steps/walk either dead or dying.

Fast forward about one week after seeing the pile of dying ants, we started to notice inside the house what looked like even bigger (3/4") black ants with wings around the house. The first thing I thought of was termites, but it seemed weird that they showed up after the spraying. So after consulting the internet, we decided (maybe optimistically?) that what we had looked more like ants than termites from the photos shown. Could be wrong, though. So I asked the guy who sprayed about it, and he said if it was termites to look out for wings around the house, in windowsills and such, and also tubes on the foundation and generally in the basement. If they were ants, he said just give all the treatments some more time. In the meantime, we were killing 5-10 of these winged creatures a day. So since we didn't see any termite evidence, we uneducatedly decided that they weren't termites. And he was right, within another two weeks or so, the big winged ants have not reappeared, which is where we stand today, as far as the house goes.

Today, while painting the new siding on the garage, we noticed a lot of ants on the trim near the roof line, and also saw one of the larger ants with wings in the same area. I know that the spray was at least somewhat effective in the garage, as I saw many dead ants inside. 

The questions I have I guess: What are these big ants with wings? I know there is always a possibility that they are termites, but if not, are they queens or something? Why did all these winged ants appear in the house after the treatment? Should I have the termidor guy come back to respray the garage? He gave us a 90 day guarantee. Anything we did wrong, should we be concerned more? Thank you to anyone who reads


----------



## dcentuori

Sorry for the delay, but I was planning to offer my post-mortem after I trimmed back the raspberries and finished my first perimeter treatment of termidor. Also, I haven't been able to do that Phantom treatment in my sunroom, as we already started our annual summer caterpillar project and didn't want to risk any collateral damage (25 chrysalis this year! so far, so good!

Needless to say, despite not "finishing" my phase 1 treatment plan WE HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE CARPENTER ANT SINCE! THANK YOU!!

I still need to get those loose ends, and then do my second treatment for the year this fall. But as has been pointed out, no need to tear up the deck!

The real test will be to see if any show up next year, but I sincerely doubt that now. 

Thanks all!

As for Porkfriedrice, I will wait for the pros to respond, but sounds like something got established inside your house and those are the winged carpenter ants. My understanding then is that if that is the nest and they have access to food and water inside, they had no need to forage outside and cross the Termidor perimeter. I have a hunch Phantom will be recommended. Good luck!

Dante


----------



## PAbugman

dcentouri: Well done on your ants, and good advice to porkfried. All ant colonies have winged reproductive ants in them-you are seeing what is called supplemental queens. There is rarely just one queen-the supplementals are the ones that split off with a cross-section of the colony when the main colony gets too large. This new colony is called a satellite colony. When you guys treat, also treat all surrounding tree trunks, up to about your own height with Termidor. Colonies will live quite well in trees and satellite colonies split off from them, so get the tree nests too. Seeing dead/dying/distressed ants means it is working. It works slow. We give a 6 month warranty with one application and rarely get called back for warranty work. We tell the customer to wait at least two weeks after treatment before making a re-assessment.


----------



## dcentuori

And now, Spring is upon us...

I never got around to doing a fall Termidor treatment last year, and with the mild winter here in NE Ohio, I'm afraid the CAs could be mobilizing early. Can I do my treatment this early? I know about giving about a 24hr period w/o rain, but I couldn't find anything on the label about temperature. Although we've had record breaking temps, I could easily still see another snowfall or freezing temperatures out here.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dante


----------



## PAbugman

Hit ‘em. We’re seeing and doing carpenter ant treatments here in Pa. If you’ve been watching closely and not seeing any then it wouldn’t hurt to wait a while either.


----------



## doodleb1973

This is to PA bug man what is the safety on Termidor when you are digging the treated soil back up. For example they did a pretreat on our footers but I saw the exterminator spray mounds of dirt drenching it in the garage where we hadn't treated yet so that was graded and pulled some of the dirt am sure on out into the walk area in front of the garage, that's issue one issue two is I am digging right done to the footers and pouring a concrete pad adjacent to my garage and am terrified of getting into the chemicals. I know this sounds a lil neurotic but I have a fear of chemicals and my husband decided to pretreat


----------



## Alben

Make sure you have no leaks that are causing moisture, Carpenter ants need moist wood to create nests. There is a product, Terro, that is quite effective in control. I use jar lids with a mixture of honey and borax with just a slight amount of water to aid mixing. When I first tried this I checked later and found the lid surrounded by a host of ants. A couple of days later - no more ants. I keep a few loaded lids around but have not seen any more ants. I understand that the worker ants take the mix back to feed the queen ant. She is responsible for the production of more workers. No queen = no new workers = no nest. The beauty of this is that the mix is not immediately fatal. The ants also feed/poison the home guard. You will see a few stragglers around for a few days, but without the nest they do not live long.


----------



## Awesomepest

Carpenter ants are also biggest headache for us they are very small in size they eat woods we should pest control all wood material as well as full house.


----------



## Old Thomas

Carpenter ants like damp wood. If you see them regularly, there is damp wood somewhere.


----------



## DoomsDave

I concur with @Old Thomas and even go as far as to say that carpenter ants are more of a side symptom of a bigger problem, which is the watery wood. Even without the ants, that structure will be in trouble if that issue isn't resolved.


----------

