# 200 Amp or 400 Amp service



## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> We're not electricians, but we will be running all of our electric wires ourselves


This is a bad idea. A homeowner is certainly capable of a lot of things but completely wiring his house is bad news.

The way you save money is by digging your own trenches, buying your own materials and doing tasks like drywall and painting that will not start fires or electrocute someone.

If you insist, start by googling "residential load calculations". You will need to know *all *of your equipment rating info before you begin.


You have your work cut out for you.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Ditto on 220/221

Can the Co-op help with the calcs? How about the architect?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

220/221 said:


> This is a bad idea. A homeowner is certainly capable of a lot of things but completely wiring his house is bad news.
> 
> The way you save money is by digging your own trenches, buying your own materials and doing tasks like drywall and painting that will not start fires or electrocute someone.


I disagree completely
The only electrician I hired did a pathetc job
The Inspector even commented on the work (poor)
But since it was the SE they required a certified electrician to make the connections & runs.
I knew more then the electrician did & my work was better
He was in it for the $$. do the work & get out
I live here, it's my life & I triple check everything & build & wire above code


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Are you required to get a permit in your location? If so, then it would be a 'homeowners' permit. Most jurisdictions allow homeowners to pull permits and do their own work. The homeowner just has to follow whatever code is in place and get the mandatory inspections (usually a rough-in and a final). If you can do the work, you can get the permit, for your own house.

Having said that, a major job like a new house wiring usually requires some pretty sophisticated skills. If you have them, more power to you!

In re: 200 amp v. 400 amp service, the utility in my area requires a certification from an electrical engineer to provide anything over 200 amps to a single family house. The wire sizes, possible inductive heating and line insulating characteristics of anything over 200 amp service makes the installation rise to a new level that usually isn't seen in a single family home. I could see two separate service drops of 200A each, but not a single 400A service. That's a huge wire for a 120/240 service drop! Amperage like that is usually reserved for three-phase systems.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Bigplanz said:


> Are you required to get a permit in your location? If so, then it would be a 'homeowners' permit. Most jurisdictions allow homeowners to pull permits and do their own work. The homeowner just has to follow whatever code is in place and get the mandatory inspections (usually a rough-in and a final). If you can do the work, you can get the permit, for your own house.
> 
> Having said that, a major job like a new house wiring usually requires some pretty sophisticated skills. If you have them, more power to you!
> 
> In re: 200 amp v. 400 amp service, the utility in my area requires a certification from an electrical engineer to provide anything over 200 amps to a single family house. The wire sizes, possible inductive heating and line insulating characteristics of anything over 200 amp service makes the installation rise to a new level that usually isn't seen in a single family home. I could see two separate service drops of 200A each, but not a single 400A service. That's a huge wire for a 120/240 service drop! Amperage like that is usually reserved for three-phase systems.


Actually it's not that unusual, although for residences what you see is a 320A meter base that feeds two 200A panels. This is less expensive than a true 400A service.


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## NolaTigaBait (Mar 9, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I disagree completely
> The only electrician I hired did a pathetc job
> The Inspector even commented on the work (poor)
> But since it was the SE they required a certified electrician to make the connections & runs.
> ...


scuba dave...you are an IDIOT:thumbsup:


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Boontucky said:


> Thanks for any input.



Many people are capable of learning to do anything they want to do, and are capable of learning to do it properly. How much time and effort that takes is the question.

Are you really interested in spending 500 hours, 1,000 hours or more learning all the details of the code to be able to properly wire your house? (In the real world, Inspectors can't inspect everything and an inspection is by no means a guarantee against shock or fire.) A few people are, my experience is that most people that do it themselves just want to get it done and want to save money. Only a few take the time to learn the profession in the capacity necessary to wire an entire home. You need to think about why your doing this yourself and if it is really going to be safe or not.

That said, regardless of who is going to do this work, you need to figure out what your load is going to be.

What are the specs on the heater? What other high draw items do you have, Hot Tub, Pool, Steam Generator, Electric water heater, other electric heaters?

Jamie


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Boontucky said:


> #1 We are going to go with electric heat for the basement using an electric boiler for radiant, and most likely an electric furnace for the upstairs. The coop will install a second meter to use exclusively for the heat, but I'm not sure how that is set up.
> 
> #2 We're not electricians, but we will be running all of our electric wires ourselves, including the ones between the meter and the house. We can save the labor cost this way, and a qualified electrician will actually hook up the wires to the panel, and the panel to the meter, and do an inspection of our work.
> 
> ...





NolaTigaBait said:


> scuba dave...you are an IDIOT:thumbsup:


Yes, yes I am :laughing: 

#1 I'm not sure why you would want a boiler & a furnace?
Why not radiant heat everywhere?
I'm not sure where you are located - Kentucky?
2nd meter - do they charge lower for heat?
Why a 2nd meter?

#2 This is KEY. If you know what you are doing you are fine. If you do not then your work needs to be checked very carefully.
Have you done electric work like this in the past? I knew someone who decided to do the runs themselves & save $$. The work was sloppy - wires twisted as they were run. Inspector was not happy - they had to hire an electrician. It did not cost them more, they just wasted a lot of time.

This is a LOT of work to wire a house. Best bet is to buy the NEC 2008 codebook & start reading. Layout room by room what electric will be in the room. Make notations on code for the room, IE GCI in bathrooms, AFCI in other areas
I go above code, code calls for an outlet every 12' on a straight wall & an outlet on every wall. I prefer an outlet every 8' or LESS. Cords on lamps & radios etc have become shorter & shorter

#3 Wiring a house without knowing the load(s) is like building a cart to be towed by an unknown animal. How big should it be? Dunno
Around here big houses have 400a by default, I looked into a 400a (320a) setup
Only the main feed had to be run by an electrician
The Inspector was fine with my running everything after that
I'm not sure what overload in the winter means?
Electric can use a lot of power
Add up all of the electric appliances you will have or may have
Heat, AC, Kitchen stove, microwave, dryer, hot tub, lighting load, 
dishwasher, TV, stereos, welding setup

You then need to do a whole house electric Calc to determine your needs. Before building my additon I did a calc for the added space & included everything I wanted to add. I came up with 155a out of 200a. My Christmas display at the time was using over 80a - this why I looked into a 320a setup. Instead I bought LED lights. Expensive but a one time expense, I don't have to listen to the wife every year when the electric bill arives in Jan 

I have easily spent over 500 hours reviewing my electric setup at my last house, then this house. Studying, reading the NEC handbook (1,299 pages), asking questions on other sites & now this site. Its a lot of work, don't underestimate the time needed.

Not 100% sure on meters as I never changed one
But a different meter was needed for 100a, 200a, 320a setup
So depending upon your setup that will determine what is needed

#4 a Kill switch before the panels
That is possible
But depending up on the setup, the equipment rating, it may make anything down stream considered a sub. So be careful & verify what is needed & specific setup 1st

That is one thing I wish I had
So I could shut off all power in the panel when I needed to make some connections.


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## Floorwizard (Dec 5, 2003)

NolaTigaBait said:


> scuba dave...you are an IDIOT:thumbsup:


No violent, discriminatory language or personal attacks are tolerated in 
the forum.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.:thumbsup:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually I was thinking it was a compliment due to the thumbs up


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Here is the 2008 NEC in draft. It is pretty much the same as the one you have to pay over $100 for. 

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/necdigest/NEC2008ROPDraft.pdf


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

*Thanks!*

Wow, thank you for all of the replies.

220/221 - We're doing all of that ourselves. Ours is not loan financed construction, so we're building it one thing at a time as $ comes available. So I have plenty of time to research and do a good job. I don't have experience with wires, but my BIL does.

PaliBob - We're our own designer/engineer/architect/builder/foreman whatever, you name it. The only thing we're not doing is pouring concrete and framing walls. Everything else we're doing it. Good idea to ask the coop if they do that type of stuff.

BigPlanz - the only permit required for building is the setbacks, and that's it. No inspections or anything else: nada, zero, zilch. No code either, which is scary, but I'm following the code of the closest city. I live out in the country. I'm trying to find out from the coop the difference between 200 Amp and 400 Amp setup and costs since we already have a meter installed and I don't know what it's for. We have an electrician that we're hiring to consult on big questions like gauge of wire, etc. etc. We're also quoting what it will be for him to do all of the work between the meter and panel, including wires, with the exception of digging the trench. If we can come up with the cash for him to do it all, we will. Saves me all the trouble.
Thanks for the link. I can't check out the library one and this I can print and read at home!

JamieDolan - I will do all the research necessary and they do have the NEC at the library. I don't mind reading it. The problem is understanding it all. I'm an engineer, so I like the challenge to understand it all. I like to know what I'm doing, not just blindily jumping into things and have no fear of appearing dumb if it will get me answers to my questions!
There are two main reasons that we're going DIY - one to save money, and to do this at our own pace. We didn't like the bank telling us to build this in 12 months since it would mean to finance the whole thing, which though we can pay the monthly bill, it would mean we'd have to build without all of the nice things we'd like to have, like lots of windows and building a superinsulated home.
Right now we have the shell built to the lock up stage, and I have no idea the boiler/heater/water heater/tv/hot tub/etc. etc. are going to be because it probably won't be until next year or the next before we start buying such things. I could take a guess I suppose to get a ball park.


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yes, yes I am :laughing:
> 
> #1 I'm not sure why you would want a boiler & a furnace?
> Why not radiant heat everywhere?
> ...


#1 - The coop has a special rate of 4c/KWH plus $5 monthly fee for electric heat, but that electricity has to be dedicated to heat only, hence the second meter. I'd love radiant in the whole house, but my DH is not buying into that one. He's not sure the radiant in the basement is worth the setup. I'm still holding out that I can convince him to do radiant upstairs!
We're going with electric because out other option is propane, and last year prices doubled and we almost went broke, and electricity is cheap for heating, for now at least. Maybe solar and wind power can be added in the future.

#2 No experience other than an electrical engineering course in college. My BIL has wired several of his houses and he will help us. As I mentioned before, there are no inspections in the county where I live. Not even the insurance company require an inspection, which is scary for me. I would not mind an inspector telling me to redo something. I know there is a bit of a learning curve, but I don't mind taking the time to study. 

#3 What I mean by not wanting to overload in the winter means that if the heat is running, and we have the hot tub running and my DH is off in the shop welding, while the fridge is running with a load of laundry washing and someone runs the dishwasher we're not going to blow up the breakers. LoL.
I will start making my list of appliances even if I have to guess (but i'll err on the safe side and plan for the biggest realistic possibility for a worst case scenario) If it takes 500, 1000 hours of reading, and asking questions so be it! I want the piece of mind that I won't kill my children with a house fire for not doing my homework.

#4 I definitely want a kill switch right before the panels. Someday, I'd love to have a bypass so that we can run a generator during power outages, especially in winter if my main heat will be electric (though we have a wood burning fireplace that will be a back up). I'm in Iowa, not Kentucky. LoL.

Thank you so much for your time and your considerate answer. It's always nice to find some encouragement. I know I can do this, and I can only imagine the work it will take to know how to do it properly, after all the pros are pros because they've years of experience. I've got the time and determination to do it, but I know I will need help getting my questions answered! Again, thanks.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If you are thinking of a generator look into a meter base with a plug built in. They are not approved for use in MA, but they do make them
I'm not 100% sure how they work
But basically you switch over & plug the gen in
Then you only turn on the breakers for what you want to power

But in some cases (all?) you know need to be able to supply 100% power to your house ?? That's a big Gen for me, I only have a 6,000w model


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Boontucky said:


> JamieDolan - I will do all the research necessary and they do have the NEC at the library. I don't mind reading it. The problem is understanding it all. I'm an engineer, so I like the challenge to understand it all. I like to know what I'm doing, not just blindily jumping into things and have no fear of appearing dumb if it will get me answers to my questions!
> There are two main reasons that we're going DIY - one to save money, and to do this at our own pace. We didn't like the bank telling us to build this in 12 months since it would mean to finance the whole thing, which though we can pay the monthly bill, it would mean we'd have to build without all of the nice things we'd like to have, like lots of windows and building a superinsulated home.
> Right now we have the shell built to the lock up stage, and I have no idea the boiler/heater/water heater/tv/hot tub/etc. etc. are going to be because it probably won't be until next year or the next before we start buying such things. I could take a guess I suppose to get a ball park.




So your walls and such are all open now?

If so, as a matter of personal preference, not by any requirement to do so, I would install all EMT (Metal Conduit) in the entire home. It's not that hard with all the walls open, and the cost really isn't that high. It is more labor intensive, but make it soo much easier to make changes in the future and offers more physical protection for the wiring down the road. 

Jamie


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> I would install all EMT (Metal Conduit) in the entire home. *It's not that hard with all the walls open, *


 

:laughing::laughing::jester::laughing::laughing:

Piping the whole house is a tough job for experienced people. There is no way a homeowner is going to pipe/wire everything. No way.


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## Caddyshack (Mar 24, 2009)

Where do you live???
There are few states that don't have building codes.

If you don't know load calcs, how are going to wire your house?
Then again, if there is no NEC I guess you can put the whole house on one circuit.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Every state has codes, they may not be enforced

NEC adoption by State:

http://www.childoutletsafety.org/files/NECAdoptionMap.pdf


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Remember, the NEC is not a design manual. As stated in Article 90:

*90.1 Purpose.*
*(A) Practical Safeguarding. *The purpose of this _Code _is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity. 
*(B) Adequacy. *This _Code _contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
* (C) Intention. *This _Code _is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

Without an adopted standard, you can essentially wire it with speaker wire if you want to, but, of course, that would be foolish. The standards in the NEC are pretty much the minimum required to provide a 'state of the art' installation, but by no means is each and every standard applicable to a single family house. In fact, probably 50% or more of the code has no application to a single family house.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

In re: EMT, it is actually required in some jurisdictions (Chicago, for example). Electricians from Chicago claim it can be installed in a framed wall by flexing the EMT through bored holes in 16 inch O/C wood studs. 

Seems like a whole lot of work to me, even if that is true. Then, of course, you have to pull all the wires. Also seems like a lot of work for little, if any, practical gain. Romex (PROPERLY installed) is fine for a single family house. If you really want a little extra physical protection, give smurf a try. I love the stuff for exposed work. It is just the thing for bending a little past that inconveniently in the way main stack.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Every state has codes, they may not be enforced
> 
> NEC adoption by State:
> 
> http://www.childoutletsafety.org/files/NECAdoptionMap.pdf


Some states will adopt a 'model code' but not require each jurisdiction to use it, per se. If the local authority wishes to adopt a code, they can adopt the model or even portions of it. This is the way it is in Kentucky. The state plumbing code is enforced by the state, but pretty much everything else is optional for local jurisdictions to adopt if they see fit. Many rural parts of the state have no adopted code of any kind.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

I agree for a first timer EMT in a whole house would be a stretch. But if they're up to the challenge....I know you think us Chicago guys are nuts, but I piped my tele/data runs as well.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Beautiful job, BTW. That's a lot of wire to pull!


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## KeepItSimple (Apr 13, 2009)

Check the Service entrance equipment out at www.midwestelectric.com. There are some interesting SE bases like 400 A in and various options out including convinience outlets. There would be independent breakers in this box that could feed two 200 amp panels. The utililities sometimes require very specific meter bases. Some utilities will not allow two sepparate services for one address.

Usually the max breaker size is about 100 A in normal panels.

Your "kill switches" could be done in a number of ways. If you use it a lot, then an outdoor disconnect is possible.

You did not mention the distances say between the service drop (if one) to say the remote farm building if there is one.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

goose134 said:


> I agree for a first timer EMT in a whole house would be a stretch. But if they're up to the challenge....I know you think us Chicago guys are nuts, but I piped my tele/data runs as well.


Showoff... :thumbup:


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Bigplanz said:


> ..... If you really want a little extra physical protection, give smurf a try. I love the stuff for exposed work. It is just the thing for bending a little past that inconveniently in the way main stack.


 What is smurf? Is it that blue plastic conduit?


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> What is smurf? Is it that blue plastic conduit?


Yes, formally known as ENT. It's called smurf because it's, well, blue. 

Actually comes in three colors, blue for power circuits, yellow for telecom and red for fire alarm circuits. It's very tough but easy to cut and bend.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

One option which I'd seriously consider is to have the service and any load side panels wired by electrician, and then wire the branch circuitry yourself - most of the more arcane rules related to wiring relate to the proper installation of components up to and through these panels, after they are in place you need only master a few basic wiring skills and understand a much smaller subset of the code to produce a satisfactory and safe result. Besides, most of the things that _actully_ relate to convenience and satisfaction in actual use - an adequate number of circuits and receptacles and lighting fixtures where you want them controlled the manner you prefer, are the things a homeowner can do themselves for only the cost of materials, and can be done a little at a time under room by room basis as time and budget permits once the service and load side panels are in.

-----------

Re EMT: I'm a big fan of EMT, you really, really appreciate the flexibility and convenience the first time you have to pull an additional and circuit or deal with the defective conductor. Even in Chicago these days you less and less frequently see a piece of artistry in conduit like that picture above goose134's work in residential work, more and more often you see a lot of short pieces cobbled together with with couplings and pre-bent turns:










it's not nearly as pretty, but it works, and it's certainly within the capability of any homeowner who can operate a hacksaw, a reamer, and a fish tape.

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Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

Well, Thanks to all of you for your information. I just found out that Iowa changed the law and I can no longer do any type of electrical work myself. I have to hire a licensed electrician, and the state inspector has to come out and inspect it. The code officials had the gall to say in an interview that if you're used to hiring an electrician, this won't affect costs. If you live in a city, maybe. But for us county folk our prices have just gone up since now the electrician has to pull the permits and hire the state inspection and pay the fees. I am actually surprised that the farmers aren'tup in arms about this. Need to rewire your grain bins? Gotta hire someone now.

I am so upset. I don't mind the inspection part of it. I think that if I can wire my house to be up to NEC standard and the State inspector inspected it and approved it, I shouldn't have to be forced to hire someone. But there's no provision for that. The code officials claim that homeowners can still do their own work on existing house for maintenace work (so thank goodness they will allow me to change my lightbulbs or replace a broken ceiling fan). But reading deeper into the code you find that if I want to add another outlet, I have to hire someone to do it! Empty space on the panel to add extra lights? Someone else has to do that work now. That's insane. A simple job I could do for $50 will now cost me $200.
I'm building a chicken coop inside my barn, and to add those new circuits I probably need to change a few things in the panel, and I have to hire someone now? That's bull.

I know in the city they allowed my SIL to wire her basement herself when she finished years after the house was originally built. She could apply for the permit herlself, then get her work inspected. With the new law, you can't do that anymore.

I might as well put off dreaming of having this house done for a few years. I can't afford to hire the electrician right now. 

Sorry for my rants. Thanks for the information, those pictures look great~


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I have "heard" that some electricians will work with you to get the job done. All depends upon how busy they are
Around here you can't get an electrician to come out to install an outlet. It's hard enough to get them in for a big job


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

Michael Thomas said:


> One option which I'd seriously consider is to have the service and any load side panels wired by electrician, and then wire the branch circuitry yourself - most of the more arcane rules related to wiring relate to the proper installation of components up to and through these panels, after they are in place you need only master a few basic wiring skills and understand a much smaller subset of the code to produce a satisfactory and safe result. Besides, most of the things that _actully_ relate to convenience and satisfaction in actual use - an adequate number of circuits and receptacles and lighting fixtures where you want them controlled the manner you prefer, are the things a homeowner can do themselves for only the cost of materials, and can be done a little at a time under room by room basis as time and budget permits once the service and load side panels are in.
> 
> -----------
> 
> ...


That's what we had planned to do, but with the new law in iowa, we can't even do that anymore.


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

Scuba Dave,

The law went into force March 1, and someone told me that they believe if the project was started before that date, than I don't need a license. I'm trying to get the board to define what "new service" means and what they consider electrical work started before March 1 to see if I qualify.

I was looking at my meter box and it has as circuit breaker that says 200 Amp right on the panel. So do I already have a kill switch at the meter ?

Thanks.


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## Boontucky (Apr 10, 2009)

If I can figure out that I can do work myself, I'm thinking of using conduit in the basement to embed in the ICF foam.
Which is better option: PVC or metal conduit?


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## D3240 (Jul 24, 2011)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I disagree completely
> The only electrician I hired did a pathetc job
> The Inspector even commented on the work (poor)
> But since it was the SE they required a certified electrician to make the connections & runs.
> ...


 
You get what you pay for. You go cheap as you did and that is what you get as with everything. Yea the guy is in it for the money. Do you work for free? You cut his profit to almost nothing (remmeber insurance and fees) Yes I am an electrician and only the guys at the bottom take jobs like that, too much risk taking responsibility for your work, just not worth it to any good electrician unless he is doing it for a friend, which I have done.


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## D3240 (Jul 24, 2011)

Boontucky said:


> We are building our own house. We had the local coop install the new power service to the site. We have OH line to a pole, then UG line to another pole where there's a green box next to the pole and a meter.
> 
> We are going to go with electric heat for the basement using an electric boiler for radiant, and most likely an electric furnace for the upstairs. The coop will install a second meter to use exclusively for the heat, but I'm not sure how that is set up.
> 
> ...


You are no where near ready to do this yourself! You need to read up on codes, calculations, and find out what equipment (and the loads involved). befor you do anything. yea you may be capable of branch circuits but leave the rest to someone that knows what he is doing. Be it an electrician or a friend.


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## KeepItSimple (Apr 13, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. For one, I do agree that an electricaian should do the load calcs for the house to size the service.

One way thing can be done is a 400 A service be broken down into two 200 A subpanels with disconnects for both.

Your out buildings, separate metering and additional possible generator are complicating matters.

One EASY way of doing generator backup is an interlocking breaker. One for the main and one for the generator backfeed. You can see how this gets messy with separate metering and multiple panels.

Sub-metering is also possible, where you would just meter the electric heat and would subtract that from the total power.

Dual panels create a mess with backups.

Now is the time to consider Home Automation conduits.


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## D3240 (Jul 24, 2011)

KeepItSimple said:


> This is an interesting thread. For one, I do agree that an electricaian should do the load calcs for the house to size the service.
> 
> One way thing can be done is a 440 A service be broken down into two 200 A subpanels with disconnects for both.
> 
> ...


 
Dual panels are OK if you go through a 400 Amp Ct cabinet (I have five (you can have up to six by code) ) but you cannot by code have two services to one building. I thing to check into is a residential 325 CI , common in farm aeas to run both house and barn (goes by different names depending on your service provider). Basically eqivalent to a 400 Amp service but avoiding the expense of a CT cabinet (they get pricey). Brunswick Electric COOP in NC provides the first 200 feet underground in pipe for $625 a bargain in my book


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