# No neutral wire...



## Bocolo

What are the colors on your switch? As far as I know switches do not have a neutral.

Just looked it up they do have a neutral. Sorry.


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## Speedy Petey

Some dimmer switches, timers, etc DO require a neutral. 

Your ONLY option is to re-wire the switch loop with a "3-wire" cable so you can have a neutral in that box. 
You CANNOT run an individual wire, or a neutral from a different circuit.


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## valerikim

Speedy Petey said:


> Your ONLY option is to re-wire the switch loop with a "3-wire" cable so you can have a neutral in that box.


I don't think I can do it myself. Do you know what would be the approximate price range for this kind of work if I hire an electrician?


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## Bigplanz

valerikim said:


> I don't think I can do it myself. Do you know what would be the approximate price range for this kind of work if I hire an electrician?


While I don't recommend it, I have seen the ground used to serve as the neutral for a switch like that. Completely non-code compliant, but it 'works.' I have also seen people ground a three prong receptacle through the neutral to get it to pass a plug tester inspection. We started requiring no face plates and 'receptacles must be left out of the box for inspection' after somebody got caught doing that.


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## georgiasparky

No, No, No -- don't even think about using the ground as the neutral...:no:


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## rgsgww

Don't use the ground as the neutral, please don't mention about it.

Using the ground as the neutral HAS killed people before. Don't do it.


You said two blacks, this is uncommon, unless your house is wired with conduit or some method that allows you to pull individual conductors.

Do you have access from above? Where do these switch wires go?

Can you provide a picture?


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## Bigplanz

rgsgww said:


> Using the ground as the neutral HAS killed people before. Don't do it.


I agree completely, and don't recommend it at all. I think it should be mentioned under the 'never do this' category of advice. NEVER use the ground wire for anything other than an Equipment Ground. The service ground (AKA neutral) must be completely separate from the EG.


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## Speedy Petey

Bigplanz said:


> I agree completely, and don't recommend it at all. I think it should be mentioned under the 'never do this' category of advice.


Then WHY say: _"While I don't recommend it, I have seen the ground used to serve as the neutral for a switch like that. Completely non-code compliant, but it 'works.'"_ ????

NO, it does NOT work. It creates a situation that is potentially VERY dangerous and needs not be mentioned.


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## Daniel Holzman

I ran into a switch like that recently, it was for a dimmable 12 volt halogen system, the switch required a separate neutral. I had to rerun the circuit to provide the neutral, and it of course needed a separate equipment ground.


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## Bigplanz

Speedy Petey said:


> Then WHY say: _"While I don't recommend it, I have seen the ground used to serve as the neutral for a switch like that. Completely non-code compliant, but it 'works.'"_ ????
> 
> NO, it does NOT work. It creates a situation that is potentially VERY dangerous and needs not be mentioned.


Well, point taken. I wasn't very emphatic in my statement, I grant you. Perhaps I'm jaded, as I work in the regulatory field and see people do stuff like this a lot. It would get flagged on a field inspection and the inspector could have the utility company cut your power off until you fixed it, wired it correctly.

We had a case here about 7 years ago where somebody used the ground as the common in a three way switch. It 'worked' in the sense that the switch performed as intended. Unfortunately, there was a short somewhere else (garage door opener) and since the ground had been bypassed/removed, an open short was created that resulted in a fatality.


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## Speedy Petey

Bigplanz said:


> We had a case here about 7 years ago where somebody used the ground as the common in a three way switch. It 'worked' in the sense that the switch performed as intended. Unfortunately, there was a short somewhere else (garage door opener) and since the ground had been bypassed/removed, an open short was created that resulted in a fatality.


This was a well documented case that got a lot of media attention. LOTS of finger pointing. The ones ultimately responsible got jail time as well if I remember correctly.
All I remember with any certainty is that a child lost his/her life.


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## RegeSullivan

Could you use another switch? This switch is a non-dimming and there is no timer or sensor so you should be able to find a switch that does not require a neutral unless the led is important enough to warrant pulling a new wire.


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## joed

If the switch has two black wires on it then you either have conduit and could pull a new neutral or there are white wires in the back of the box that you didn't find.


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## 220/221

> Unfortunately, there was a short somewhere else (garage door opener) and since the ground had been bypassed/removed, an open short was created that resulted in a fatality


Probab;ly an open neutral rather than a short. 

The real danger here is if you get an open neutral, the current will follow the ground path and energize anything plugged in or gooked up to a ground wire. In the garage door/wet kid case the current likely flowed thru the ground pin on the GDO, thru the metal components, thru the kid and into the wet cement driveway.

Don't use ground for a neutral.


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## Bigplanz

220/221 said:


> Probab;ly an open neutral rather than a short.
> 
> The real danger here is if you get an open neutral, the current will follow the ground path and energize anything plugged in or gooked up to a ground wire. In the garage door/wet kid case the current likely flowed thru the ground pin on the GDO, thru the metal components, thru the kid and into the wet cement driveway.
> 
> Don't use ground for a neutral.


i think you're right about the open neutral, actually. It was some years ago and as I recall the child was wet and touched the garage door. I remember it was because the ground was used in a three-way switch, but it was probably an open neutral. In any event, this was a 'no permit' pulled job done by an unqualified person.


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## joed

Anyone who even suggests using a ground for neutral should be banned from posting in the eletrical forum.


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## theatretch85

joed said:


> Anyone who even suggests using a ground for neutral should be banned from posting in the eletrical forum.


I would completely agree! I just found a nightmare in my new house, trying to figure out how everything is wired. Some idiot took a 12/3 piece of wire to feed a downstairs hallway light (ok overkill but not the issue). The light is connected with the red and the white wires while the black wire is stripped, but not connected to anything, and the ground at the light clipped off (also a 100 watt bulb in a socket rated for 60 watts). In the switch box, I find a SWITCH LOOP feeding the other fixtures in the basement and the neutral wire from the light connected to the ground wires!!! Oh and the black wire is just taped up in the box (the one not connected at the light) and the red wire is actually wrapped around the screw on the switch (where the switch loop wires are backstabbed). 

NEVER use the ground as a neutral as this previous owner has done! Eventually I will post up a thread with pictures of all the wiring issues I have come across, its been a nightmare opening the boxes to see what I will find next!


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## Bigplanz

theatretch85 said:


> its been a nightmare opening the boxes to see what I will find next!


Be careful! I was tracing a door bell wire in my basement and found some old BX cable coiled up on the top of the HVAC duct work. I started to grab it for a closer look, then thought better of it. Abut 8 inches of wire was out of the metal cable so I checked with a pen tester. Beep! Beep! Beep! Yep it was hot alright! No telling how long it had been up there, just cut off and coiled up on top of my duct work.

Here a couple of pictures. One where it is dangling down the way I found it, and another of it after I capped and taped the hot and neutral.


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## rgsgww

Bigplanz said:


> after I capped and taped the hot and neutral.



Still not enough, put it in a box or find the source and disconnect it there.

If it was dead, you would need to find both ends and mark it "abandoned in place" and at least nut the wires in case someone would wire into it anyways.


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## Bigplanz

rgsgww said:


> Still not enough, put it in a box or find the source and disconnect it there.
> 
> If it was dead, you would need to find both ends and mark it "abandoned in place" and at least nut the wires in case someone would wire into it anyways.


Actually, I did just that. I put a circuit finder on the exposed wire and found the breaker the wire was attached to, then I turned it off and put the wire (capped) in a box. I had to reroute the BX from where it was over to an open spot for the box. After I got it in a box, I checked the rest of the house and apparently this breaker is just for this one wire. Nothing else in the house is affected when I turn that breaker off. The best I can figure the BX used to go upstairs to the kitchen, but must have been abandoned when it was rewired by a previous owner.

So, in the last couple of months I have connected two light fixtures to it for the basement and will probably run a line over to the wall for a receptacle.


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## Speedy Petey

Is that porcelain fixture GFI protected? :whistling2: :jester:


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## jbfan

Speedy Petey said:


> Is that porcelain fixture GFI protected? :whistling2: :jester:


Troublemaker!:thumbsup:


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## Bigplanz

Speedy Petey said:


> Is that porcelain fixture GFI protected? :whistling2: :jester:


Under the 2005 NEC in effect here, lighting circuits in basements do not have to be protected by a GFCI. Under the current code, I would have to have GFCI for all circuits in an unfinished basement, as well as for the dedicated outlet I have just for my freezer.


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## rgsgww

I suppose he means the outlet on the fixture


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## Scuba_Dave

According to this Kentucky accepted NEC 2008 8/2008

http://www.childoutletsafety.org/files/NECAdoptionMap.pdf

I think GFCI in a basement is a good thing - outlets
I wasn't aware they expanded it to lights in 2008?


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## Bigplanz

rgsgww said:


> I suppose he means the outlet on the fixture


I was told that an outlet 'not readily accessible' in an unfinished basement also did not have to be GFCI protected under the 2005 NEC. The height of the light is 7 feet+ above the floor, thus meeting the 'not readily accessible' test. However, under 2008, it would require protection, if for no other reason than it has a built in outlet.

Edit to add: Kentucky did adopt the 2008 NEC, however, Louisville is a 'home rule' city and can adopt whichever code (or variants thereof) as they see fit. As of today, Louisville still enforces the 2005 code.

I don't 'think' 2008 extended coverage to strictly lighting circuits, but I could be mistaken about that. In any event, 2008 dropped the 'not readily accessible' exemption, so the outlet in the light fixture would mandate GFCI protection I believe.


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## Speedy Petey

rgsgww said:


> I suppose he means the outlet on the fixture


No, I mean the receptacle on the fixture. 





Bigplanz said:


> Under the current code, I would have to have GFCI for all circuits in an unfinished basement,


What code is that?





Bigplanz said:


> I was told that an outlet 'not readily accessible' in an unfinished basement also did not have to be GFCI protected under the 2005 NEC. The height of the light is 7 feet+ above the floor, thus meeting the 'not readily accessible' test.


You were told? By whom? 
I think the NEC in your case is the last word on this. Go look up the definition of _"Accessible, Readily"_.
I would consider 7' off the floor quite readily accessible.


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## Bigplanz

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Bigplanz*  
_Under the current code, I would have to have GFCI for all circuits in an unfinished basement,_

What code is that?

I meant to say under the current NEC (2008). I am given to understand that all circuits in a basement have to be GFCI protected under the 2008 NEC.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Bigplanz*  
_I was told that an outlet 'not readily accessible' in an unfinished basement also did not have to be GFCI protected under the 2005 NEC. The height of the light is 7 feet+ above the floor, thus meeting the 'not readily accessible' test._

You were told? By whom? 

I was told this by a Master Electrician and by one of the inspectors who work in my office. Under the NEC the 'authority having jurisdiction' has considerable leeway to determine what terms mean. 

I think the NEC in your case is the last word on this. Go look up the definition of _"Accessible, Readily"_.
I would consider 7' off the floor quite readily accessible.

I consider it 'readily accessible' too, since I am over 6 feet tall. I also agree that this fixture doesn't meet that definition, in my opinion. If Louisville adopts the 2008 all of these fixtures will require GFCI protection, except, possibly, strictly lighting circuits. i still am unclear if strictly lighting circuits in unfinished basements require GFCI under the 2008 NEC.


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## Speedy Petey

Bigplanz said:


> I meant to say under the current NEC (2008). I am given to understand that all circuits in a basement have to be GFCI protected under the 2008 NEC.


There was never the intent to GFI protect anything but receptacles in unfinished basements. 

Here is the exact 2008 NEC text. Not something someone it telling you:

_*(A) Dwelling Units.* All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere *receptacles* installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. 

*(5) Unfinished basements* — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like 
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
_


For 2008 the exceptions for receptacles that are not readily accessible and for receptacles behind large appliances were removed.


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## joed

Stop using the wires for a clothesline. Put up a proper line if you want to dry your dresses in the basement.


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## Bigplanz

joed said:


> Stop using the wires for a clothesline. Put up a proper line if you want to dry your dresses in the basement.


 I am onboard with that one, believe me. Now all I have to do is convince my wife. :no:


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## Bigplanz

Speedy Petey said:


> There was never the intent to GFI protect anything but receptacles in unfinished basements.
> 
> Here is the exact 2008 NEC text. Not something someone it telling you:
> 
> _*(A) Dwelling Units.* All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere *receptacles* installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
> 
> *(5) Unfinished basements* — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
> Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
> _
> 
> 
> For 2008 the exceptions for receptacles that are not readily accessible and for receptacles behind large appliances were removed.


Right you are! I looked into it in more depth this afternoon, and discovered that lighting circuits are not required for GFCI, only circuits with receptacles. Those light fixtures with built in receptacles would, alas, require a GFCI on that circuit. Interestingly, I also discovered that Kentucky has NOT adopted the 2008 NEC, even though it is commonly reported that it has. It seems Kentucky did adopt it, at a administrative level, and that it was then pulled from formal adoption pending 'further study.' The 2005 NEC is still in effect in Kentucky. This link explains it.

http://www.iaei.org/directconnect/states/KY.html


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## Sparky9845

need some answers to a problem


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## Jim Port

Sparky9845 said:


> need some answers to a problem


Please start a new thread instead of dredging up zombies.


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