# Replacing single pole light switches with double pole



## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

Whatever you do,remove that cap and connect that bare wire to the ground screw on the switch.
If you use 2 switches pig tail the ground to the second switch too.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You can certainly replace the two single switches with a double switch but then you will have an empty spot in the junction box. There is no neutral in that box so you can not instal a receptacle if that is what you are thinking.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

What are you trying to accomplish? This doesn't make sense. You already have two switches, and it sounds like you want to replace both of them with two double pole switches? Why? If you're intending to replace the two existing switches with a single double pole switch so one switch controls both things, that's still unnecessary. You don't need a double pole switch to do that. You can just use one of the existing switches.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

You could use a single pole switch.Connect the black and red with a tail to switch.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

bruce54 said:


> Should I just buy new single pole switches and reconnect everything the same way, or can I use the double pole switches I just bought and use the same (or different?) wiring set up.


Depends on what you are trying to do. 
WHAT are you trying to do???


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

bobelectric said:


> You could use a single pole switch.Connect the black and red with a tail to switch.


Really can not, due to that is actually two Switch legs.


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's input. To be more specific as to what I'm trying to accomplish, the first goal is to simply replace the ivory colored switches and plates in the room with all-white. So far, all the switches I've replaced in the house have been double pole, so that's why I automatically bought the double pole switches. However, when I opened up the plate, I discovered the original switches there were single pole, hence my original question about using double pole switches to replace the single pole switches.

Currently, one of the two switches there controls the ovehead room and the other one controls the ceiling fan, so I do want separate switches to control them. I am also *adding* a wall sconce just above the light plate, so I'm actually adding a *third switch* which has a dimmer on it.

I can certainly return the double poles and exchange them for singles. I just need to be certain that I should continue the series wiring from the first to the second to the third switch, as shown in the photo attached.

Thanks!
Bruce


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

> I am also *adding* a wall sconce just above the light plate, so I'm actually adding a *third switch* which has a dimmer on it.


You will not be able to do that without getting a new feed to the switch box. Your switch box has no neutral.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Bruce54, you have Three way switches, Four Way switches and Single Pole switches. What are you calling "Double Pole" Switches?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

> So far, all the switches I've replaced in the house have been double pole, so that's why I automatically bought the double pole switches


Do you mean 3 WAY switches? Do the switches have 3 screws or 4?


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

To clarify, I'm replacing the 2 gang box with a 3 gang box to add an extra single pole combination toggler/dimmer switch. k_buz, the double pole switches have 4 screws plus a ground. Are you saying I need to add an *additional *feed to the box to run the third switch?

Thanks!


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Can you give me an example of how you used these double pole switches in the past? What color wires did you put to what terminals.

Better yet, take a picture of a switch you replaced before getting to this 2 gang switch box. There is something going on here, and if you have done what I think you might of, you are going to want to go back to the switches you have already replaced.


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

k_buz, I can certainly post a photo of some of the previously replaced switches, but I can tell you that ALL of the other double pole switches (4 screws each) I have replaced from ivory to white had two separate Romex wires coming into the box, each with one white, one black and one ground wire so that each of the 4 screws on each switch had its own appropriate wire connected. This is the first switch (and the last room in the house) that I've encountered that has this wiring configuration. Does this help?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

bruce54 said:


> k_buz, I can certainly post a photo of some of the previously replaced switches, but I can tell you that ALL of the other double pole switches (4 screws each) I have replaced from ivory to white had two separate Romex wires coming into the box, each with one white, one black and one ground wire so that each of the 4 screws on each switch had its own appropriate wire connected. This is the first switch (and the last room in the house) that I've encountered that has this wiring configuration. Does this help?


That is because the Red & Black are the "Switches" to turn on and off lights, with the White being the Hot. Whoever wired it originally did not color the white as either Red or Black, as it should have been done.

As for the other switches, what rooms were they in, and can you post a picture as asked of the switches you replaced?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

removed until further clarification............


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I am curious as to where you could have possibly needed double-pole switches inside a home.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

*Double Pole Switch*
The double pole switch also has "on" and "off" markings and functions similar to a single pole switch in that it turns something on and off *from one location*. However, because it has four brass terminals instead of two terminals it can handle switching two hot wires which allows it to switch a 240 volt circuit (or "220/221 whatever it takes..." if you're a Mr. Mom fan (1983)). The switch will also come with a ground terminal (green screw).So bottom line, double pole switches are typically used to switch receptacles and appliances using 240 volt circuits.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/switch_types_3.htm

I really think that the OP may be talking about the following: 
Electrical Wiring in the Home/Wiring a double switch

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/2011/5/Wiring-double-switch-1.htm


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Does the switch you are trying to replace look like this?










or


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The top picture is what I thought he was trying to use. Now I think he is trying to use either three way or four way switches in place of single switches.
Three way and four way switches can use in place of single way switches. You will just have some unused terminals.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

joed said:


> The top picture is what I thought he was trying to use. Now I think he is trying to use either three way or four way switches in place of single switches.
> Three way and four way switches can use in place of single way switches. You will just have some unused terminals.


I was thinking he was using a TRUE 2 pole switch, switching the hot AND the neutral.


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for their input. I'd like to try this approach.

Photo # 1: The existing switches and wiring. The first switch, from left to right, turns the overhead light on/off. The second swtich turns on the ceiling fan.

Photo # 2: The new switches I've bought. The first two, will replace the above two. The third switch on the right is a toggler/dimmer that I want to use to control a wall sconce that I will hook up later. Is it possible to use the current wiring set-up to hook up these switches and travel the current to all three switches? If so, could someone please post a wiring diagram I would use to hook up the three new switches. If not, please tell me exactly what I need to do to make this work.

I have no problem going back to the store to get single pole switches like the ones pictured in Photo # 1, or a 3-way switch if that's easier for the travelers.

Thanks everyone!
Bruce


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## a7ecorsair (Jun 1, 2010)

You have switches that are used in 4-way circuits - three or more switched controlling one light. These are used in between two three way switches.
First of all, why do you feel you have to change the existing switches? They work.
Second, as already posted, you cannot power a new fixture from this location because *you do not have a neutral line* to connect to one side of the new light.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm sorry to do this to you, but we need to see a picture of the box that this switch came in.

This is either a 2 pole switch or a 4 way switch.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

After further inspection of the pictures, these ARE 2 Pole switches. (note the "off" written on the toggle)

Now that we have cleared that up, I think it is time to call a local electrician to go over what you have already done. It is possible you are now switching neutrals. Since you stated that you have switched receptacles in the home, I would unplug all electronics until you can have this looked at by a professional.

I would have no idea why 2 pole switches were installed previously, unless you mistook a 4 way switch for a 2 pole switch, but switching neutrals can be dangerous to people and electronics.


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## a7ecorsair (Jun 1, 2010)

On a second look, I think I see the word OFF on each switch toggle so that would mean these are two pole switches. They still won't solve your problem.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Is there an echo in here? :whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

bruce54 said:


> Photo # 2: The new switches I've bought. *The first two, will replace the above two.*


WHY in the wide world of sports would you get two-pole switches to replace SP switches????

I agree with K_buz. It's time to call in an electrician. You are in over your head. 
Even something as seemingly simple as replacing devices can be complicated, especially when you really don't know what you are doing. 
FAR too many people downplay the importance of things like this.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> WHY in the wide world of sports would you get two-pole switches to replace SP switches????


"Because it is safer when you do it that way, not the way that a real electrician would do it. It costs money you know.":smartass:


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

OK, you guys are starting to lose me here. Again, as I originally stated, I picked up the 2-pole switches because all of the other switches I've replaced in the house (about 14 double sets) were 2-pole switches. I am changing the switches from the ivory color to bright white. True, I should have looked at the switches before I bought them. I know I can buy two white single pole switches and replace the two single pole ivory ones that are there right now. OK, everybody got that?

A couple folks have said that the wiring coming into the box needs to have a neutral wire in the bundle in order to safely hook up the two switches and have current travel to the dimmer toggle switch. Would everyone agree with that last statement, or not? If so, I will call an electrician and have them add the correct wiring to the new 3 gang box for what I'm trying to accomplish. 

Thanks very much to all and good night.

Bruce


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

bruce54 said:


> So far, all the switches I've replaced in the house have been double pole, so that's why I automatically bought the double pole switches.


No way. As others have said, those were 4-way switches, not double pole. Both have four connections, but the switching action is different. The replacement switches you posted pictures of appear to be 2P, not 4-way. If you already replaced some 4-ways with 2P's, those circuits shouldn't be working quite right. So the concern now is not so much the issue you started this thread about; it's that the work you already did needs redone.

It would be possible to use 2P or 4-way switches in place of single pole switches. But there's no reason to, and you need to understand how they work to wire it properly. They also won't fit in the box easily.

As others have said, you cannot feed a new light fixture from the box you have without running a new cable to it, since there is no neutral available in that box.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

bruce54 said:


> OK, you guys are starting to lose me here. Again, as I originally stated, I picked up the 2-pole switches because all of the other switches I've replaced in the house (about 14 double sets) were 2-pole switches. I am changing the switches from the ivory color to bright white. True, I should have looked at the switches before I bought them. I know I can buy two white single pole switches and replace the two single pole ivory ones that are there right now. OK, everybody got that?
> 
> A couple folks have said that the wiring coming into the box needs to have a neutral wire in the bundle in order to safely hook up the two switches and have current travel to the dimmer toggle switch. Would everyone agree with that last statement, or not? If so, I will call an electrician and have them add the correct wiring to the new 3 gang box for what I'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> ...


:whistling2:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that the OP has only dealt with DC circuits (ie auto) electrical.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

bruce54 said:


> OK, you guys are starting to lose me here. Again, as I originally stated, I picked up the 2-pole switches because all of the other switches I've replaced in the house (about 14 double sets) were 2-pole switches. I am changing the switches from the ivory color to bright white. True, I should have looked at the switches before I bought them. I know I can buy two white single pole switches and replace the two single pole ivory ones that are there right now. OK, everybody got that?


I don't got that. How have you confirmed that they were double pole switches? How were they wired? This is so unusual that it's just completely implausible, unless the house was originally wired by aliens (of the outer space variety). What is a "double set" of switches?



> A couple folks have said that the wiring coming into the box needs to have a neutral wire in the bundle in order to safely hook up the two switches and have current travel to the dimmer toggle switch. Would everyone agree with that last statement, or not?


It's not a matter of needing another wire for it to work "safely" or so "current can travel to the dimmer". You do not have one of the necessary wires to power another load from that box. I mean... how were you planning on connecting it?

You'll have to run a cable from the light fixture to the box, of course. You will also need to either run another cable to the switch box from some source of power to feed the new switch/fixture, OR you will need to run a second cable to the new fixture from some source of power. Either way. Right now the box contains only switch loops, so there is no way to connect a new load to it.

I think you need to spend some time looking at residential wiring diagrams and tutorials to develop and understanding of how circuits are wired. You need to understand what the devices do and how everything is connected and works together. It's really not possible to safely work on an electrical system without understanding how the circuits function. With that understanding, almost all of these questions will disappear.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

bruce54 said:


> k_buz, I can certainly post a photo of some of the previously replaced switches, but I can tell you that ALL of the other double pole switches (4 screws each) I have replaced from ivory to white had two separate Romex wires coming into the box, each with one white, one black and one ground wire so that each of the 4 screws on each switch had its own appropriate wire connected. This is the first switch (and the last room in the house) that I've encountered that has this wiring configuration. Does this help?


Double pole switches are used in two situations:
1) Switching 240V loads with two live wires that need to be switched.
2) Switching loads on two separate 120V circuits at the same time, if listed for 2 circuits. For example switching multiple light banks in an office. (This sounds like what you have)

You usually don't see many double pole switches in a home. I could see for a bedroom, if you wanted to be able to switch the overhead lights and plugs at the same time and they were on separate circuits, you would use a double pole switch.

To answer your question, yes you may use the double pole switch as a single pole switch. Connect both wires on the same side of the switch. There are two reasons you may not want to:
1) The DP switch is 3 - 5 x the cost of a single pole
2) The DP switch body is bigger. You said you wanted to add a dimmer in a 3 gang. You might want to use single poles just to free up room for the dimmer switch. (How would a DP switch affect box fill calculation?)

Whatever you do please fix the code violations while you're at it:
1) Color coding the wires correctly
2) Properly grounding
3) The white jumper should be to the wire nut, not between the switches


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

I haven't replaced any 4-ways with 2P's. The replacement switches I have used have been 2P, or Double Pole switches, exactly what was there originally. All I've done is replace original switches, duplicating the existing wiring to the new switch. All have had 4 screws and a ground. In a few, the left side screws were not used and power was traveled to the next switch. By the way, all of the switches I've replaced in the house have been double gang boxed, double plated with two switches in each box.

As for the new 3 gang box I want to use (you can actually see my pencil marks extending from the old 2 gang box) should easily house any three switches adequately. 

Thanks,
Bruce


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I read what he is saying as he has replace (28) 2 Pole switches. But he wasn't able to do them all at the same time because HD didn't stock (28) 2 Pole switches in one location. I'd be curious what he paid per switch.

Yeah...that's completely normal:whistling2:


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

bruce54 said:


> I haven't replaced any 4-ways with 2P's. The replacement switches I have used have been 2P, or Double Pole switches, exactly what was there originally. All I've done is replace original switches, duplicating the existing wiring to the new switch. All have had 4 screws and a ground. In a few, the left side screws were not used and power was traveled to the next switch. By the way, all of the switches I've replaced in the house have been double gang boxed, double plated with two switches in each box.
> 
> As for the new 3 gang box I want to use (you can actually see my pencil marks extending from the old 2 gang box) should easily house any three switches adequately.
> 
> ...


All joking aside.

This is SO OUT OF THE ORDINARY that none of us can comprehend why any electrical contractor would use 2 pole switches when there would be absolutely NO REASON to use 2 pole switches. 

Add to that, that 4 way switches LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME as 2 pole switches, with one minor exception...4 way switches don't have off/on on the toggle. It would be easy for a novice to mix up the two.

This quote is what scares me...



> had two separate Romex wires coming into the box, each with one white, one black and one ground wire so that each of the 4 screws on each switch had its own appropriate wire connected


This could be one of 3 things...

1) Each romex is acting as a switch loop, but being controlled by the same switch. I don't think I have ever seen this situation in 14 years of being out in the field.

2) One romex is power in, and the other romex is the switch leg. In this situation, if you wired the blacks to one side of the switch and the whites to the other, you would be switching the neutral. You are not allowed to switch the neutral according to code. Not to mention this is dangerous!

3) This is actually a 4 way switch and the two 2 wire romex's are being used as travelers

Combining everything you are telling us, we cannot help you. We would have to be there to physically go to all the switches to see WTF is going on because it is SOOOOOO out of the ordinary.


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## goosebarry (Mar 28, 2012)

goosebarry said:


> 2) Switching loads on two separate 120V circuits at the same time, if listed for 2 circuits. For example switching multiple light banks in an office. (This sounds like what you have)


After I wrote this I started looking around the Internet for DPST "2 circuit" toggle or Decora switches and did not find any. 30 years ago (I was licensed back then) I remember wiring DPST switches with 2 120 V circuits. 

Does anybody know of a listed DPST "2 circuit" switch?

BTW If you look at the spec for DPDT "2 circuit" switches, the circuits are on separate throw not separate poles.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

bruce54 said:


> I haven't replaced any 4-ways with 2P's. The replacement switches I have used have been 2P, or Double Pole switches, exactly what was there originally. All I've done is replace original switches, duplicating the existing wiring to the new switch. All have had 4 screws and a ground. In a few, the left side screws were not used and power was traveled to the next switch. By the way, all of the switches I've replaced in the house have been double gang boxed, double plated with two switches in each box.
> 
> As for the new 3 gang box I want to use (you can actually see my pencil marks extending from the old 2 gang box) should easily house any three switches adequately.
> 
> ...


No, what you have been dealing with is a bunch of Switch Legs.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You can use the two new switches to replace the existing ones. While not normal they will work.

YOU CAN NOT ADD THE THIRD SWITCH UNLESS YOU PUT THE POWER FEED FOR YOUR NEW FIXTURE AT THE FIXTURE OR PULL IN A NEW POWER FEED CABLE TO THE SWITCH BOX.
The existing three wire cable does not have a neutral. The white wire is the unswitched hot power coming in. The red and black are the two switched hot wires back to the two fixtures.


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> Really can not, due to that is actually two Switch legs.


I disagree!


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## bruce54 (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm calling an electrician tomorrow to go through all my switches and advise on my current (no pun intended) dilema. 

Thanks everyone!
Bruce


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

bobelectric said:


> I disagree!


Then show us how, with their current setup.


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