# Having trouble w/ Kitchen layout



## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Here are some pictures of my kitchen. As you can see the cabinets, like the house, are 80 yrs old and have around 12 layers of paint on them. In addition, the P.O. had this funky blue laminate countertop installed which we are really not crazy about and don't even get me started on the electrical....

Anyways, in the spring it's time to remodel. We've decided to "largely" keep the layout the same to keep costs down. Basically the wall with the sink is going to get gutted so i can insulate and do the electrical. After that we will do the drywall on that wall and get new cabinets, dishwasher and a counter + sink. As you can see we have slowly replaced all the applicances.

The problem is the stove..... as you can see it just sort of "hangs out" there by itself. I'd really like to wrap the new counter around it to the left there so there isn't a giant gap on one side. I don't care if one side has nothing on it, as long as the counter butts up against it on the other side.

If that's impossible then what I was thinking of doing was moving the stove so it's in place of one of the cabinets to the left of the sink and then adding a second counter where the microwave is right now - the problem is the forced air register at the floor level. Is it possible to put some sort of extension on those to have it come out under the cabinets?

Any other ideas welcome.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)




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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

You certainly have your hands full there. The current layout does look quite limiting. Granted, cost is always a concern (for most of us anyway), but is there any way you can take some of that space in the adjacent room behind the refrigerator wall to expand your kitchen? 

It would be desirable to have counter space on at least one side and preferably both sides of the range for food prep. The thought about moving it where you suggeste is valid. The range definately does not belong where it is. If you can put in an over-the range microwave that might be a better use of the available space.

Some articles I have read also suggest at least one side of the refrigerator have a counter to place grocery bags prior to loading the refrigerator.

If there was room, I'd suggest everything on the same wall but I see there is not. The fridge might work better where the stove is now if you can work out some sort of solution for the cabinet space to the right of it, maybe a lazy susan corner cabinet if there is room. 

If you can intall 12' depth cabinets and cupboards on the wall opposite the sink and dishwasher, that would improve the flow of you kitchen and provide storage. Possibley even a floor to ceiling pantry where the fridge is now. Cabinets do not have to be 24".

As far as the air register goes, what direction do your floor joists run? Is it possible to run a short length of ductwork under the floor and come up in front of the cabinet with a floor vent?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Challenging--good description---We need Andy Gump on this one--He's a creative designer--actually recommended him to a customer that relocated to his neck of the woods-- 

Is there any space available that could be stolen from another room??


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Wow, that is one heck of a setup on your kitchen there. That would take a bit of imagination to come up with something not too expensive and workable.
Have you considered closing up the door? That would free up a bit of wall space for sure.

Andy.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> Challenging--good description---We need Andy Gump on this one--He's a creative designer--actually recommended him to a customer that relocated to his neck of the woods--
> 
> Is there any space available that could be stolen from another room??



Hah, hi Mike, I was posting just as you were.

Thanks for that.

Andy.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You are welcome---Glad to see another friendly face here.--Mike--


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

The dining room on the other side of the wall the fridge/ microwave is on is one of our favorite rooms in the house and we'd like to avoid stealing space from it.

There is actually a full length pantry - you can see it in one of the pictures, it's on the other side of the wall behind the stove.

The microwave is being replaced with an above the stove stainless/black version to match the rest of the appliances whenever d-day comes, I figure I gotta get counter space where I can.

Floor joists run from the microwave toward the sink, I never even though of extending the duct and going up through the floor.....

The current setup isn't driving us crazy - it has actually worked amazingly well, and my wife cooks 7 days a week, it's just the gap between the counter and stove that's annoying me the worst....


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

You could even bring the ducting up under the base cabinets and install a vent through the toe kick.

Andy.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

If you move the stove right to the end of the wall what is the gap remaining from stove to cabinet?


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

AndyGump said:


> You could even bring the ducting up under the base cabinets and install a vent through the toe kick.
> Andy.


If we do cabinets over there I'd really like to do that, but I didn't know if the product to do this existed. It sounds like you can verify they do?




epson said:


> If you move the stove right to the end of the wall what is the gap remaining from stove to cabinet?


Right around 11".
The entire width of the wall (Stove, dead space, counter) is right around 67".

I'm not sure of the minimum distance required in order to get a corner cabinet w/ a lazy susan in there - I really hope there is enough.

One other option I stumbled over is trying to put the stove at a 45 degree angle...


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

CoconutPete said:


> Right around 11".
> The entire width of the wall (Stove, dead space, counter) is right around 67".


If you have 11'' you can also put a 10'' bank of drawers cabinet with a filler strip or a single full height door cabinet and then change your end cabinet to a blind corner cabinet and put a 90 degree counter on top.


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

*idea*

coconutpete,

here is what I came up with...

it is basically the same but making use of the existing pantry space... I don't know the exact dimensions of your room or doorways, so you'll have to adjust to fit. 

you can make your own floor to ceiling pantry out of vanier plywood and stait or paint to match the rest of the room

hope it is helpful

rod


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

rditz said:


> coconutpete,
> 
> here is what I came up with...
> 
> ...


That’s exactly what I was talking about but you put the narrow cabinet on the other side of the stove …:yes:


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

epson, 

There may or may not be enough room for it.. a corner cabinet will impede on the 11" or so.. but if there is enough room, it is always nice to have a counter (even a small one) on both sides of the stove.

rod


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

rditz said:


> epson,
> 
> There may or may not be enough room for it.. a corner cabinet will impede on the 11" or so.. but if there is enough room, it is always nice to have a counter (even a small one) on both sides of the stove.
> 
> rod


He said he has 11’’ so you can actually put in a 10’’ base cabinet with a filler strip and still use a blind corner base cabinet going parallel with the sink wall. 
My blind corner cabinet is not a 90 degree corner it is straight.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Rditz:

So it sounds like you think there is enough room to work with which is encouraging. My main concern over there is accessing the items stored in the circle with the X in it. right now there is no door there, and only a door where I put the <.

If I put drawers between the current counter and the stove then wouldn't that leave it semi-hard to access that space do you think?

Is there 2-piece door that would attach by the stove and "tuck" into the corner that I could fit there with the 11" Maybe?


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

yes, the corner cabinet gets a 2 piece hinged door that will open up quite a bit... also for storage and access, buy a "lazy-susan" kit for the corner cabinet, it will give you the best usage for that cabinet.

i did like the picture of the kitchen with the stove in the corner, but I think that you are already limited on your available space and that design would cramp your kitchen further.

rod


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Scale has gone to hell here, but you get the point. This is what we are talking about right?

So the 11" between the stove and the current counter should be enough to do this?

That takes care of my biggest worry :thumbup:


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Yes that will work quite nicely


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

you got it pete... of course, you will have to relocate your stove plug and other electrical services, but you are tearing walls apart anyways...

good luck

rod


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

rditz said:


> you got it pete... of course, you will have to relocate your stove plug and other electrical services, but you are tearing walls apart anyways...
> 
> good luck
> 
> rod


I don't understand. I was planning on leaving the stove where it is and having the new counter wrap around to meet it??

Relocating the plug will not be a huge deal, the kitchen is getting a re-wire anyway. I'm having a 200 amp panel installed before I start. The circuits are all jacked up right now.


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

my suggestion is to remove the pantry behind the stove to give you additional cabinet space. therefore relocation of the plug would be required


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Tearing out the pantry would involve tearing out a coat closet in the living room as well. It would add Time, materials and $ to the project along with take away our coat closet so I'd like to keep that as-is. In addition to that, the current pantry is actually surprisingly roomy and I don't think I could do better by re-building it on the other side of the kitchen.

Hopefully this helps:


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

cool.. gotta do what works best..

rod


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

As long as you guys still agree that the 11" gap is enough to do a double hinged door the I'm happy :thumbup:


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## rditz (Jan 6, 2011)

go to home depot and look at their kitchen cabinets. they will probably have a sheet hanging around that is a planning sheet. They will also have racks of cabinets (clearly marked with the dimensions on them). check out the corner base cabinets (i believe they are 36"x36") and are made specifically to into a corner like we been discussing. they will also have scores of doors. look for a door for that cabinet. it is a double door with a piano hinge joining the doors together in the middle. 

rod


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

You should also be able to get a 34’’ x 34’’ you can also go to home depot as suggested but before you do take measurements of your existing kitchen with all door and window locations and appliance sizes and go to their kitchen department and they will draw up a plan that works best for your situation for free and then you will actually know what works.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

You could also check Ikea's catalog online.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Going to IKEA this weekend since we are almost out of rye bread. Can't go to IKEA without taking a stroll around, so I'll probably get a quote on cabinets while we're there.

I think we'll just get a quote from the local Lowe's / HD as well - if the prices come up the same I'd rather buy them assembled from HD/Lowe's since it takes time out of the equation. If IKEA comes up cheaper I don't mind assembling - I can assemble their stuff with my eyes closed now, we just put IKEA cabinets in my parents condo this weekend.

We're looking for a plain white "Cape Cod style" cabinets so they should not be hard to find.

Side question: If we are doing pergo floors in the kitchen would you just put the cabinets on plywood equal in thickness to the pergo floor and then run the pergo right up to the toekick? Doing pergo all over and putting cabinets on top seems like a bad idea due to the "flex".


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

I have installed kitchen cabinets on pergo flooring before and the last time I did it was 4 years ago and I haven’t heard a peep. But if you like you can set the cabinets on the plywood floor and butt the pergo floor to it and then add the toe kick.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

My concern with doing that is sliding the dishwasher in and out. If I have that increased height to deal with from the pergo it could pose problems.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

The cabinets from Ikea don't come with bases, Ikea has the funky legs, leveling pads and then clipon covers. 

This could be an advantage, as you could build your own base allowing for floor variations and levelness.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

CoconutPete said:


> My concern with doing that is sliding the dishwasher in and out. If I have that increased height to deal with from the pergo it could pose problems.


Just add a piece of plywood to the area under the DW to make it level with the finished floor.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

*If you’re going to redo the entire floor and all the cabinets sit on the pergo floor then the height for the dishwasher would still slide under the cabinet. If you decide to just leave the dishwasher area with no floor you will still be good to install the dishwasher but when sliding it out you will have a lip from the floor to deal with. Just make sure your dishwasher opening and height are for your dishwasher.*


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Jackofall1 said:


> The cabinets from Ikea don't come with bases, Ikea has the funky legs, leveling pads and then clipon covers.
> 
> This could be an advantage, as you could build your own base allowing for floor variations and levelness.


forgot about that...:thumbsup:


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

epson said:


> forgot about that...:thumbsup:


Forget about what? I thought the cabinets were well made, easy to assemble and very cost efficient. 

I chose not to use the legs and made my own base, this allowed me to level the cabinets on a floor that was more than an inch out of level across 16.5', I put a relief cut on the front of the base to allow the hardwood flooring room for expansion.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

No, no what I meant was that I forgot that they came with legs and they can be removed to make your own base.


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## pumpkin8880 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hi! what if you did a corner lazy susan in the corner by where the stove currently is, then put the fridge there....then on the wall where the fridge is currently, you can put the stove with a hood or a shelve above it for the microwave, and do cabinets on the sides?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

CoconutPete said:


> My concern with doing that is sliding the dishwasher in and out. If I have that increased height to deal with from the pergo it could pose problems.


There's enough adjustment in the legs of the dishwaser for 1/2" flooring. If you want to be sure, put 1/2" ply under the cabinets to compensate for the flooring.
Ron


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Pete, the kitchen/pantry dining room layout looks and sounds like a traditional setup dating back to the times where rich folks had cooks and wait staff. Is this an old house? 

The layout with the stove in its original position and corner cabinet sounds promising. You say that the current layout works well. If you now have no kids or young kids, that layout may not work as well as you add kids or as they get older. Is that outer door a major egress or is it infrequently used? It just looks like the more traffic in and out of that door, the less functional your current setup may become.

One other small thing that may open up the kitchen a little more is if you can recess your refrigerator back into the pantry space so it is even with the rest of the cabinetry. Especially if you stick with 12" as your maximum depth.


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## JohnnyBop (Jan 4, 2011)

Biaia


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

JohnnyBop said:


> Biaia


Closed head injury?
Ron


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe I posed the question in the wrong way, let me retry:

We are still undecided on what exactly our "dream" countertop is going to be, so because this is not a huge house and we'd like to do the kitchen sooner rather than later, the countertop is going to be butcher block or something like it for the next couple of years. If we love it, we love it. If we don't then it will get replaced at some point. Let's say 2 years from now someone comes in and does a granite or quartz countertop - because of the "springiness" of the pergo w/ the foam underlay I just foresaw BAD news for a stone countertop - does that make sense? I thought plywood sounded like a much more stable base for the cabinets the stone is going to lie on.





Jim F said:


> Pete, the kitchen/pantry dining room layout looks and sounds like a traditional setup dating back to the times where rich folks had cooks and wait staff. Is this an old house?
> 
> The layout with the stove in its original position and corner cabinet sounds promising. You say that the current layout works well. If you now have no kids or young kids, that layout may not work as well as you add kids or as they get older. Is that outer door a major egress or is it infrequently used? It just looks like the more traffic in and out of that door, the less functional your current setup may become.


Our house is from 1930. I'ts a small Cape Cod and before the addition (1950's) it would have been a 2 bedroom 1 bath house, so I'm not sure where the staff would have lived - it's possible I suppose.

That entrance in the kitchen is driving us pretty nuts.... My wife and I both hate tracking stuff into the kitchen in the winter. I built a deck off the back of the house last summer and the first project when the snow melts is going to be cutting a hole in the wall in the large closet in the den and turning it into a mudroom. That door will be the primary point of entry into the house for anyone who lives there so that door in the kitchen will hopefully become an ornament.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

> That entrance in the kitchen is driving us pretty nuts.... My wife and I both hate tracking stuff into the kitchen in the winter. I built a deck off the back of the house last summer and the first project when the snow melts is going to be cutting a hole in the wall in the large closet in the den and turning it into a mudroom. That door will be the primary point of entry into the house for anyone who lives there so that door in the kitchen will hopefully become an ornament.


In that case, I would do the door/mudroom project first. Have a means of egress, then seal up the door in the kitchen and and use that space against the wall as kitchen area. 
You will save money in the long run and be a lot more satisfied with the end product.

Andy.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

CoconutPete said:


> Scale has gone to hell here, but you get the point. This is what we are talking about right?
> 
> So the 11" between the stove and the current counter should be enough to do this?
> 
> That takes care of my biggest worry :thumbup:


 Having the stove at the end of the cabinet run *and* next to a door is a bad plan.
It would really help if you supplied actual dimensions to the walls. You can't design a kitchen without those details.
Ron


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

You guys are right, I have the measurements and I will draw up a more exact plan tonight. After mulling it over I really like the idea of moving the stove. Here is what I have in mind - but more details will follow.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

If you're going to keep that refrigerator, you can open the wall where it will be and reframe the area so it can be recessed another 4" or so. The plaster or sheetrock on the other side stays where it is.
Ron


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The consideration with butcher block counter tops is that they must be sealed with an ingestable product such as vegetable oil which must also be reapplied periodically. That is done in the food prep areas. I didn't think people did entire kitchen countertops in butcher block but don't know of any reason why not. 

A lot of folks dislike laminate countertops but they are hard to beat for versatility and affordability. The laminate would also tolerate a spongy floor.


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## 1910NE (Sep 5, 2010)

galley kitchen with a good work triangle


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

You can always go with a post formed laminate or square edge counter with the appearance of butcher block. I have one myself…


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

It might be butcher block, it might be laminate - not sure yet. The concern is that in 2 years it might be granite or corian. I'm worried about a springy floor vs. the solid countertop. We love this area so there is a chance we will stay for a long time.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Pete, don't put cabinets on top of a floating (Pergo type) floor. 

I don't think laminate floor is the right choice for a kitchen area.

But that is just me.

There are lots of possible configurations for your kitchen even given how small it is.

Andy.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I just checked back on this discussion--I second the idea of adding your new entrance before the kitchen project starts---The added space provided closing off the door (and maybe adding a window there) would be dramatic.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, I have no idea if any of this will work or not but here goes...






Andy.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Andy:

Great sketchups! We were looking at stuff this weekend and we both really like the idea of doing something similar to that, the second to last picture in particular.

Anyways, I finally wrote down the measurements :jester:


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Hi and thank you for the kind words.
It is not Sketchup though, it is Chief Architect, great program.
I do this kind of stuff for a living.

Andy.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

My bad - I didn't even mean Google Sketchup, I just meant renderings.

Either way... I think we have a good idea of what we want to do. It's time to start estimating cost of drywall, romex, insulation etc.


Thanks.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Don't think putting the oven at the end like that is safe. May not even be code. I know cooktops need at least 12" of counter on either side.
Ron


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> Don't think putting the oven at the end like that is safe. May not even be code. I know cooktops need at least 12" of counter on either side.
> Ron


That definitely makes sense with cooktops. I am not sure about the range. It's a "free standing range" but then again... that might not matter.

There are plenty of websites that make mention of the 12"/12" or 12"/15" rule, but of course they don't specify cooktop or stove and none of them make any mention of code..........:huh:


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

CoconutPete said:


> That definitely makes sense with cooktops. I am not sure about the range. It's a "free standing range" but then again... that might not matter.
> 
> There are plenty of websites that make mention of the 12"/12" or 12"/15" rule, but of course they don't specify cooktop or stove and none of them make any mention of code..........:huh:


Code issues aside, having the oven by a traffic flow doorway is not commom sense. I'd center it in the refrigerator bank of base cabinets.
Ron


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> Code issues aside, having the oven by a traffic flow doorway is not commom sense. I'd center it in the refrigerator bank of base cabinets.
> Ron


Would love to do that, but the Heat vent is on that wall. Will have to look into what's required to move the vent I guess...

I still can't find anything in the code ... this thing is harder to read than the electrical one.

Even If I tried something else like centering it to the left of the sink, I juuuuuust have 12" of counter on each side of the range. If you believe what some sites write then the rule has been changed and you need 12" on one and 15" on the other side so that won't work either.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

CoconutPete said:


> It might be butcher block, it might be laminate - not sure yet. The concern is that in 2 years it might be granite or corian. I'm worried about a springy floor vs. the solid countertop. We love this area so there is a chance we will stay for a long time.


If you are considering granite or corian in 2 years, you might consider sales now. Lowes has 1/2 off right now on certain colors of corian which brings it pretty close to the laminate price.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, the inspector called me back! I wasn't at work yet, but hey - at least he called me back! 

I'm going to bring him the same attachments from this thread and see what he says.

I think I have determined that there is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust enough room to move the stove 12" to the right (toward the counter) and putting a 12" cabinet on the side of it. If need be, that should satisfy all parties.




Jim F said:


> If you are considering granite or corian in 2 years, you might consider sales now. Lowes has 1/2 off right now on certain colors of corian which brings it pretty close to the laminate price.


I found a nice flat black laminate. It will cost $140. If you can find me granite for that price I will gladly buy it, but Lowe's sure ain't the place.:yes:


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

"I think I have determined that there is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust enough room to move the stove 12" to the right (toward the counter) and putting a 12" cabinet on the side of it. If need be, that should satisfy all parties."

If you do that, the corner area becomes a dead zone with little or no use.
Ron


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Pete, you may want to take another look at the plan I sent. 
It shows a cook oriented in the corner with a single oven in a cabinet at the present location.
I feel that this is your best alternative so that you can use the corner for storage and have a
nice counter area close to the cook-top. 

Anyway...there it is.

Andy.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> If you do that, the corner area becomes a dead zone with little or no use.
> Ron


I thought the exact same thing until I saw ikea's "Lazy susan meets traintracks" :thumbsup:



AndyGump said:


> Pete, you may want to take another look at the plan I sent.
> It shows a cook oriented in the corner with a single oven in a cabinet at the present location.


Just looked at that actually. It's definitely an option, if possible I'd like to keep the current range since it matches the fridge and dishwasher and is pretty new, but definitely an option - thanks.

Guess we'll see what mr. Inspector says.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I found a nice flat black laminate. It will cost $140. If you can find me granite for that price I will gladly buy it, but Lowe's sure ain't the place.:yes:[/quote]Well that's the general idea. Anytime you can find a good deal, go for it.


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