# DIY AC install?



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

You need a recovery machine and tank to remove the R2 from the old system. 

Torch and brazing rod(or stay brite 8) to braze or solder in the new system. Electrical and sheet metal tools if your duct work is sheet metal.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Vacuum pump, recovery machine with bottles, nitrogen, torch, flow meter for nitrogen purging, nitrogen regulator, sheet metal tools, gauges, micrometer, and electrical meter to name a few. Also an EPA card to handle the refrigerant. And someone to pull an install permit for you. 
And your units performance, reliability and efficiency depends on how well it was sized, installed and commissioned. 
That price isn't that high. You don't want to race to the bottom. A lot depends on how skilled the guys are installing the equipment.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

Would it be possible to do the install yourself and then just have a tech correctly fill the system? I'm sure they won't give you any warranty or anything, but it could save you enough to make it worth it. On the other hand if you mess something up it might cost you more in the long run. I've toyed with installing my own units once my current ones give out. Haven't made a decision yet, though it definitely looks doable with a little research.


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## Dixon12 (May 3, 2016)

So I'm in very early stages of researching this, but as of now here's how I see this process.

Say I buy something like this: https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodm...=cat1010&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=15452:2.5 Ton

~$1,700 for 15 SEER AC unit delivered. It says it's already filled with refrigerant.

So the outdoor unit is basically plug and play. The way I have it now, the indoor part of the system sits on top of gas furnace. I haven't looked into how it's all connected, but would that be something that's plug and play as well, then connect the pipes between indoor/outdoor units, or is it generally way trickier than that?


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Don't know if the are still available but back in the 70s I bought a system from Sears. Precharged compressor, line set and furnace A coil. Installed A coil in furnace plenum and connected to outside compressor with line 25' line set.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

No, it is not plug and play. The outdoor unit is charged for up to about 15' of lineset. The old unit must be reclaimed in accordance with federal law. Then it must be removed, the new unit brazed in and properly wired, and the lineset pressure tested for leaks. Then it must be evacuated and charged per manufacturer specs, usually by subcooling with adjusted superheat.


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

No offense but I won't work on those installed. I feel
Like I am my license on the line. The things I see when a homeowner installs are not good.


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## zolakk (Nov 28, 2012)

I also thought I read somewhere that a lot (if not all) manufacturers will void or greatly shorten warranty if install is not done by a licensed pro so there is that to consider


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

zolakk said:


> I also thought I read somewhere that a lot (if not all) manufacturers will void or greatly shorten warranty if install is not done by a licensed pro so there is that to consider


Some will completely void the warranty. Others will not but its like pulling teeth to claim something wrong. 
Goodman has such a horrible reputation, because so many DIYers and hacks but their equipment and make a mess of it. Then the equipment gets blamed for a crappy install.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

There are no precharged linesets and units anymore. The Canadian Keepritre co. made them and sold them under the Sears brand in the 70's and early 80's.

You can DIY and have a Pro start the unit and adjust the freon level and then apparently Goodman will give you a parts warranty. You could even hire one to remove the old freon.

However installing a AC is quite complicated. You have to be good at welding with silfoss and not burn or damage the service valves or have leaks. The lines have to hold 300 psi or more. You need to purge nitrogen thru them while welidng.

I have been talking to DIYers here for 10+ yrs and lots have welding problems or leaks later and regret they ever did it. The you may as well bend over and let a Pro take care of the mess and boy will they charge you top $$ for that. They see it as revenge for stealing their biz and profit margin. Not going to debate that but it is reality. I am sure plumbers and auto mechanics etc do the same.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

Do you really want to spend the $$$ to buy all or most of the stuff below?

Acetylene tank, torch, and regulator.
Nitrogen tank, regulator, and flow indicator
Refrigerant scale
micron gauge
recovery machine and recovery tank
hydraulic swagging tool
sheet metal tools
brazing rods
EPA class and test
clamp on amp meter
multimeter
temp meter and clamps
monometer and probes
manifold gauge
vacuum pump
extra hoses and fittings
a 25lb tank of R410a - There's a smaller size but price wasn't much different.

There's more stuff, but I can't remember them all off the top of my head. I spent about $2 grand in tools/equipment because I bought all new. And it took months to get the tools and equipment because I was looking for sale items. Believe me good accurate equipment isn't cheap.

That's some of the stuff I bought to do mine as a DIY project. 

Now I need to install a hard start kit... which is pretty much straight forward.. I picked one up, the 521 compressor saver, but I'm a bit lazy when I get home from work.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

There are(or were as of 3 years ago) units that come with precharge condensers, coils and line sets. However, these are/were mobile home split A/C units, not intended for standard construction home use. And were often only sold to MH dealerships.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Dixon, I'm in a similar boat. What I've decided to do, after watching videos on it, is to install a series of "ductless mini-splits". Each one of these is a prepackaged system - precharged with refrigerant. They come in higher SEER ratings than ducted systems, some models are cheap, and the extent of the A/C install is you drill a big hole in the wall, shove the 2 refrigerant lines, a bundle containing the power and thermostat wires, and the condensate drain line through the hole.

You screw the wires down to the terminals and you put some special sealant that makes the flared refrigerant connections unlikely to leak on the threads. You tighten the threads, connect a vacuum pump to a port, and run the pump about an hour. You're supposed to nitrogen test but a cheaper way is to just see if it holds vacuum on a sensitive micron gauge. If it does, you're probably good to go.

In your case, since it's expensive to remove your old system, you could just leave it in place. Install one of the minisplits near the old outdoor condenser and use the same outdoor electrical disconnect box. (just run a new whip to the new minisplit condenser. Don't forget to replace the breaker with one of appropriate ampacity). The other one would require a new wiring run.

Tools needed :

1. Drill
2. 2 3/4" saw bit
3. Screwdrivers and wrenches
4. Vacuum pump adapter
5. Vacuum pump 

You can borrow the pump from Autozone for free.

The most difficult part is if you don't already have an electrical connection for one. Also, since they are ductless, you'll need several minisplits to replace a large central unit. For a 2.5 ton, you'll probably need 2 minisplits, placed strategically for good air flow. 

Advantages : 1. Each unit is modular, so if one fails, you still have some A/C or heat. 2. SEER ratings about 50% higher than all but the most expensive central systems. 3. They are a prepackaged product you can repair more easily than the big units. 4. They heat via heat pump, which saves you money or costs about the same as gas in most climate zones. 5. You only pay to heat/cool the rooms of a house you actually use. 6. You don't lose 20-40% of the energy in ducting losses, which apparently makes many ducted systems significantly less efficient than their nameplate justifies.

Disadvantages : The A/C guys, for whatever reason, charge a fortune for minisplit installs relative to their cost. If you wanted a single 5 ton unit, they might install it for 4-5k. Each minisplit costs 2k-2.5k installed, which is bad if you need 4 or 5 of them instead of a 5 ton. I don't think the labor of a minisplit install justifies the price tag, but I'm not an HVAC guy, so dunno. These units use inverters and so they are pretty complex, dependent on several circuit boards and microprocessors that can fail.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Minis are a fine idea, providing you get a decent name brand. Those online knockoffs are junk, usually provide very little support and can wind up being disposable.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

DIY certainly is possible depending on where you are coming from in knowledge and mechanical skills. Also helps to spec new equipment to replace old in kind including refrigerant line connection diameters, coil dimensions, the location of the refrigerant lines into the coil, etc. That way you have no sheet metal work or need to do any rerouting or adapting refrigerant lines. Also if you have a big leak you probably won't need the recovery machine. Might not be anything in there to recover.


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

I've read through this entire thread and it seems to me one important factor is missing: Is the unit needing to be replaced a split type system or a package unit? Since buying my house in 1990 I have had to replace two (2) package units. The original unit that was on the house, and last March I replaced unit #2 with a newer package unit. Where I live one cannot buy a system such as this as local HVAC rules will not allow home supply centers to sell them, only HVAC distributors. It really helps to know someone in the A/C business. On these package units there are no lines to change out, so no special tools needed. Just disconnect the electricity, disconnect the sheet metal for the supply run and the return run and slide the new unit in attaching the sheet metal runs back together and wiring it up. It comes pre-charged also. So IF the OP has a package unit the he/she may be able to do this.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Dixon12 said:


> So I'm in very early stages of researching this, but as of now here's how I see this process. Say I buy something like this: https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/GSX160301-ASPT30C14-2-5-Ton-13-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Split-System/32700.ac?catId=cat1010&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=15452:2.5%20Ton ~$1,700 for 15 SEER AC unit delivered. It says it's already filled with refrigerant. So the outdoor unit is basically plug and play. The way I have it now, the indoor part of the system sits on top of gas furnace. I haven't looked into how it's all connected, but would that be something that's plug and play as well, then connect the pipes between indoor/outdoor units, or is it generally way trickier than that?


 if you already have gas furnace you do not need air handler


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

Paul.le said:


> if you already have gas furnace you do not need air handler


I never looked at the link... You're correct he won't need an air handler, but he will need a new coil... preferably a cased coil.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

crabjoe said:


> I never looked at the link... You're correct he won't need an air handler, but he will need a new coil... preferably a cased coil.


 you are correct. He need either 14" or 17" cases A coil that fit the existing furnace


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Installing a new system is not an issue. The system is delivered with clear instructions. However removing the old R-22 system can be a pain. You must be epa section 608 certified to recover and dispose R-22 gas. Also you need tools to handle the job. Other than that DIYer can do better than most guys out there.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Habeed said:


> ...
> Disadvantages : The A/C guys, for whatever reason, charge a fortune for minisplit installs relative to their cost. If you wanted a single 5 ton unit, they might install it for 4-5k. Each minisplit costs 2k-2.5k installed, ...


6-8 hours x 2 people for the first unit depending on the situation. At +$100/hour it adds up. They only make a few percent on the unit itself. You should be able to get a discount on the time for additional units as there no extra driving time for a few extra units. (I think up to 4-5 units for each truck that shows up) 




Thurman said:


> ... Where I live one cannot buy a system such as this as local HVAC rules will not allow home supply centers to sell them, only HVAC distributors. It really helps to know someone in the A/C business. On these package units there are no lines to change out, so no special tools needed. ...


Manufacturers link the unit to the buying contactor. We've never been asked for it, but officially every unit reqires a startup report by a certified tech for warranty to be valid. Locally here, for your own home, no problem, except insurance companies don't like it. For a business, it's illegal unless you're certified. Most packaged units include NG, so there's that extra license too. 

For tools... 2.5 tons and below you need at least 4 people to lift it. Ground level only. Up to 5 tons, it's at least 6 strong people. You'd need a crane for anything higher then waist high... So there's a permit there too, and they demand that you're trained to signal. Here, they only do work for companies. 


Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Paul.le said:


> if you already have gas furnace you do not need air handler


Depends on his current furnace, and if he actually wants to get 15 SEER from that condenser or not.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/

Check out this company for systems and life time technical support. I am working with them to install a 2.0 ton unit 

Quick technical support


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## Dixon12 (May 3, 2016)

I'll have to research this a bit more, think I'm gonna take apart the metal cover on my current unit to see how it's all put together.

As far as what I currently have, it's a 25-year old split Goodman unit with about 20 feet line going between inside and outside of the house. According to HVAC tech that looked at it, there is a major leak somewhere so it's pretty much all out of coolant. Also, my furnace isn't that old so I wonder if the previous owners of the house may have replaced the indoor coil when the furnace was installed.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> I'll have to research this a bit more, think I'm gonna take apart the metal cover on my current unit to see how it's all put together.
> 
> As far as what I currently have, it's a 25-year old split Goodman unit with about 20 feet line going between inside and outside of the house. According to HVAC tech that looked at it, there is a major leak somewhere so it's pretty much all out of coolant. Also, my furnace isn't that old so I wonder if the previous owners of the house may have replaced the indoor coil when the furnace was installed.


Highly unlikely that they would have changed the evap coil. (when people know that they are moving, they only spend on what's absolutely necessary) 

Cheers!


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Just wonder why do you care about the A coil of the old system. It is cheaper in both short and long run to replace both (coil & compressor) with R410a gas.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> I'll have to research this a bit more, think I'm gonna take apart the metal cover on my current unit to see how it's all put together.
> 
> As far as what I currently have, it's a 25-year old split Goodman unit with about 20 feet line going between inside and outside of the house. According to HVAC tech that looked at it, there is a major leak somewhere so it's pretty much all out of coolant. Also, my furnace isn't that old so I wonder if the previous owners of the house may have replaced the indoor coil when the furnace was installed.


If I were the owner, and only my furnace was bad, there's no way I would replace the coil.

Also if you're AC is 25 yo, you have an R22 system. With a new system, you're going to go R410a.. And you want an aluminum coil for it... Not copper with aluminum fins, but aluminum... Don't go cheap by trying to keep the old coil, get a new one.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It does not matter whether the coil is aluminum or copper BUT the thickness of it and how well it is made.

ADP which is owned by Lennox makes excellent thick copper coils but they are a aftermarket/independant product. The problem is a few years ago all the manufacturers started to make their coils thinner because of economics and the price of copper yadayadayada and primarily greed IMO. Then they got bit in the azz by a lot of failures and now went back to thicker coils. Some brands were worse than others but it was a common industry problem. Copper is stronger and withstands vibration much better than aluminum and in a pinch you can weld or repair it. Not so with aluminum.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

yuri said:


> It does not matter whether the coil is aluminum or copper BUT the thickness of it and how well it is made.
> 
> ADP which is owned by Lennox makes excellent thick copper coils but they are a aftermarket/independant product. The problem is a few years ago all the manufacturers started to make their coils thinner because of economics and the price of copper yadayadayada and primarily greed IMO. Then they got bit in the azz by a lot of failures and now went back to thicker coils. Some brands were worse than others but it was a common industry problem. Copper is stronger and withstands vibration much better than aluminum and in a pinch you can weld or repair it. Not so with aluminum.


Technically you can patch aluminum too. (even with oxy-acytlene) i just melt the whole channel back though, and plug it with filler. The Microchannel is a real pita sometimes. TBH, I usually replace the whole coil. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

yuri said:


> It does not matter whether the coil is aluminum or copper BUT the thickness of it and how well it is made.
> 
> ADP which is owned by Lennox makes excellent thick copper coils but they are a aftermarket/independant product. The problem is a few years ago all the manufacturers started to make their coils thinner because of economics and the price of copper yadayadayada and primarily greed IMO. Then they got bit in the azz by a lot of failures and now went back to thicker coils. Some brands were worse than others but it was a common industry problem. Copper is stronger and withstands vibration much better than aluminum and in a pinch you can weld or repair it. Not so with aluminum.


What about formicary corrosion, is this not an issue with copper or having two different metals in contact -> copper/aluminum + condensate contaminated with organic pollutants from the air?

That's apparently the main culprit. I'm sure using thinner/lower quality copper doesn't help, nor making houses tighter so they trap pollutants, nor the high pressures of 410a.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

user_12345a said:


> What about formicary corrosion, is this not an issue with copper or having two different metals in contact -> copper/aluminum + condensate contaminated with organic pollutants from the air?
> 
> That's apparently the main culprit. I'm sure using thinner/lower quality copper doesn't help, nor making houses tighter so they trap pollutants, nor the high pressures of 410a.


I've seen evaps last more then 20 years. The problems have always existed, and there's more then just that one. It's about designing around it, and apparently cut the tolerances a bit too close. 

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Carrier and Trane have been using aluminum since 1975 or earlier and some last 30 yrs or more. Corrosion is only a problem with salt spray on condensors if you live near the ocean.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

corrosion is the issue with the evap coil failures -> http://www.achrnews.com/articles/10...ks-in-evaporator-coils-cause-corrosion-issues


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

user_12345a said:


> corrosion is the issue with the evap coil failures -> http://www.achrnews.com/articles/10...ks-in-evaporator-coils-cause-corrosion-issues


When the SEER min was raised from 10 to 13. Eavp and condenser coils were both made thinner. Formicary corrosion became a larger problem with evap coils as there wasn't as much copper wall thickness. So they pin holed quicker. But condenser coils not being in the home, are not effected by the house hold chemicals, or the Chinese drywall of the mid and early 2000s. And as stated earlier, salt water spray is what condenser coils are most likely to pit from. Unless a dog is using it as a hydrant.


Hmmm, now that I think about it. Its been almost a year since I talked face to face to Robin Boyd.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You kinda have to wonder why some brands had more evap coil failures than others.

I am not married to Lennox as I worked for a huge Goodman and Carrier dealer. Lennox had a bad batch of evap coils and Trane seems to have had lots although they may sell more units. I have never heard of a Rheem coil have issues or even ICP. Did everyone go thinner or do I not hear about other brands as I see mostly Lennox. Carrier, Goodman, ICPs or is it just what we glean from the net.

If I buy a unit it will be a Rheem and I will get a ADP coil to go with it. After that I guess you pays yer money and takes yer chances. 

Corrosion, house pollution whatever, sometimes you win sometimes you lose.:biggrin2:


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## Dixon12 (May 3, 2016)

So I've been researching it further and it appears there is no need for brazing the lines, since there are crimp connectors. The crimp tools are ridiculously pricey, ~$300 on ebay, but you still save $1,000's and could probably sell the tool once the install is done.

So pretty much all that would be needed to replace my AC is:
Outside unit ~$900
Inside coil ~$400
Coolant line set ~$150 (maybe could reuse the existing?)
Crimp tool, four crimp connectors ~$400
Pay HVAC tech to fill the system ~$500 (?)
Permit $160

Total $2,510, minus $250 after selling the crimp tool, $2,260, and possibly less if can reuse the old coolant lines.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

You prose can chastise me if I'm off base or out of line (just please don't ban me from this wealth of knowledge that you graciously share ) but I'll throw this out there. I've read some of your posts in the past that leave me with the impression that even crimping can be an art. So if this gentleman crimps and it fails he would incur additional costs. So if it were me I 'd be curious to find out what responses I could get from www.thumbtack.com, soliciting a quote request for some of this labor. There _could_ be some guys out there whom would consider bidding on it and--_hopefully_--performing good workmanship. And if that makes any sense at all then the OP could purchase his own cylinder of R410A for $130 (though I wouldn't do that until after having lined-up a tech to do the work under such terms).


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> So I've been researching it further and it appears there is no need for brazing the lines, since there are crimp connectors. The crimp tools are ridiculously pricey, ~$300 on ebay, but you still save $1,000's and could probably sell the tool once the install is done.
> 
> So pretty much all that would be needed to replace my AC is:
> Outside unit ~$900
> ...


Where can you get a zoomlock for a few hundred bucks? If you can find one around $300, I'd snatch it up and I'm not even in the business! Can you post or send me a link to where I can get one for $300 on ebay?

When I did mine, I replaced my lineset ... I bought 50ft of 7/8" x 3/8" line set which was about $220. I bought a hydraulic bender so running it wasn't bad. The hard part was uncoiling that thing and getting it straight. Even with the bender, it wasn't physically possible to run without cutting and brazing. 

I'm not trying to discourage you, but I think you're making it out to be less costly than what it might be. Odds are you're going to need to do some sheet metal work to get you coil connected to your existing duct work and there's was a bunch of incidentals I needed like zip ties, screws, bubble solution (I used it on all my brazed joints when I pressurized my system with nitrogen to make sure there wasn't any leaks .. not that I needed to but I was being extra cautious), new thermostat wiring, great stuff foam and what not.

What are you doing to do about the refrigerant in your old system? Are you going to pay a tech to pull it, get a epa card and the equipment to pull yourself, or just release it into the air? You know you can't legally just release it ...

BTW, you new system should be precharged with enough refrigerant for up to 15ft of line set. When I did mine, I added enough R410a to make up the difference of the additional 30 ft or so by weight. When I checked the charge based on the superheat/subcool method, it was almost dead on. Subcooling was what was important to me because of the TXV.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

I just did a mini split install. The unit + shipping was $850 for a 0.75 ton model (would have been about a grand for the 1 ton model) I spent about $250 on supplies and materials - I borrowed a vacuum pump from autozone, so I was able to return that pricey piece of gear for free. 

In your house, you'd want 2 mini splits, the electrical pull is a pain so you'd want to reuse the circuit for your existing system for one. You do not need any expensive tools except for a vacuum pump. Harbor freight has a $10 torque wrench and you'd need a $20 set of crows feet. 

Incidentally, when I was up in the attic doing the electrical pull, I noticed the A/C unit leaks like a sieve. Not at any single point, just pinhole leaks all over it. There's leaks at the joins between the cooling cools and the furnace. Leaks at the boxes for the duct distribution. Leaky patches at the duct joints. Leaky patches at the air registers in the ceiling. 

Maybe your system has better ducting, but for mine, I think mini splits will end up being an enormous boost in system efficiency because that duct loss is eliminated. (and they have a 50% higher SEER rating)


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> You kinda have to wonder why some brands had more evap coil failures than others.
> 
> I am not married to Lennox as I worked for a huge Goodman and Carrier dealer. Lennox had a bad batch of evap coils and Trane seems to have had lots although they may sell more units. I have never heard of a Rheem coil have issues or even ICP. Did everyone go thinner or do I not hear about other brands as I see mostly Lennox. Carrier, Goodman, ICPs or is it just what we glean from the net.
> 
> ...


Everyone had problems with leaks, even Rheem.


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## Dixon12 (May 3, 2016)

crabjoe said:


> Where can you get a zoomlock for a few hundred bucks? If you can find one around $300, I'd snatch it up and I'm not even in the business! Can you post or send me a link to where I can get one for $300 on ebay?
> 
> When I did mine, I replaced my lineset ... I bought 50ft of 7/8" x 3/8" line set which was about $220. I bought a hydraulic bender so running it wasn't bad. The hard part was uncoiling that thing and getting it straight. Even with the bender, it wasn't physically possible to run without cutting and brazing.


I was looking into something called Lokring. It's crimped manually, about $300 for the tool.

As far as the lines go, the way it's laid out, it's less than 20ft of straight line (probably about 15 ft but haven't measured it out yet) with 90 deg bend and going straight into the coil. It's not brazed anywhere along the way. Is there a reason I wouldn't be able to use the old lines and just replace the coil, crimping the old lines onto it? Is there a reason to redo some of the ducts? Haven't gotten to measuring it, but I'd think I can get a coil of the same dimensions as my current one and just plug and play.




> What are you doing to do about the refrigerant in your old system? Are you going to pay a tech to pull it, get a epa card and the equipment to pull yourself, or just release it into the air? You know you can't legally just release it ...


Actually that's my biggest concern. I don't look to get into the business, ever. So getting epa certified and finding the equipment to do all this isn't something I really want to do.

I don't have problems with bolting things in place, connecting the electrical, or crimping lines. It's all the other stuff, flushing, filling, starting up the unit, charging/disposing refrigerant that I'd have to hire somebody to take care of.


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## Dixon12 (May 3, 2016)

Habeed said:


> I just did a mini split install. The unit + shipping was $850 for a 0.75 ton model (would have been about a grand for the 1 ton model) I spent about $250 on supplies and materials - I borrowed a vacuum pump from autozone, so I was able to return that pricey piece of gear for free.
> 
> In your house, you'd want 2 mini splits, the electrical pull is a pain so you'd want to reuse the circuit for your existing system for one. You do not need any expensive tools except for a vacuum pump. Harbor freight has a $10 torque wrench and you'd need a $20 set of crows feet.
> 
> ...


The minisplits wouldn't work for me, but I'd have to look into getting the vac pump from Autozone.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Lokring may be good for industrial piping etc but when you get a Goodman AC the piping attaches to a socket in copper which is attached to service valves. You must weld it and cannot crimp it there. At the TX valve you either attach it with flare fittings or weld it. No crimping. And no you cannot cut off the socket as it is a very short piece of pipe.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> The minisplits wouldn't work for me, but I'd have to look into getting the vac pump from Autozone.


Why? They are basically designed for this task. Far less expensive tools - the only unique tools you need are that vacuum pump and crows feet + torque wrenches and a 2 3/4" hole saw. Everything else is standard, basic stuff - only reason I spent so much is I didn't have certain tools already. 

They do make splits that can be ducted (this is less efficient though), some that can go in the ceiling, multi head units...


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

bfletcher7 said:


> You prose can chastise me if I'm off base or out of line (just please don't ban me from this wealth of knowledge that you graciously share ) .



This a DIY site. People are't banned for wanting to do things themselves nor for asking questions how to.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> The minisplits wouldn't work for me, but I'd have to look into getting the vac pump from Autozone.


Oh, one more thing. "minisplits wouldn't work for me" is not an acceptable answer. You can install room to room fans - like this one - with a return air vent above or below (depending on your climate zone). Energy wise, as long as the fans are on a thermostat in the room they supply, it's probably still far superior to a central HVAC system. The reason is that if you have a couple of mini splits in your house, and then 3 or 4 of these room to room fans, you're still getting the advantage of less duct leakage and more efficient inverter driven motors in the unit. (only extremely expensive HVACs use this tech)

Two mini split installs plus a few fans, which you can power off of existing circuits by just tapping into the back of an outlet near where you install each fan - is a heck of a lot easier job than trying to be your full scale A/C installer.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Habeed said:


> Oh, one more thing. "minisplits wouldn't work for me" is not an acceptable answer. You can install room to room fans - like this one - with a return air vent above or below (depending on your climate zone). Energy wise, as long as the fans are on a thermostat in the room they supply, it's probably still far superior to a central HVAC system. The reason is that if you have a couple of mini splits in your house, and then 3 or 4 of these room to room fans, you're still getting the advantage of less duct leakage and more efficient inverter driven motors in the unit. (only extremely expensive HVACs use this tech)
> 
> Two mini split installs plus a few fans, which you can power off of existing circuits by just tapping into the back of an outlet near where you install each fan - is a heck of a lot easier job than trying to be your full scale A/C installer.


That sounds like more work then just a conventional split system. 

Crimping should be done only on soft drawn copper. After a decade of use, the lineset is now hard drawn. (vibrations cold work the copper) The sockets/nipples on the condensing unit valves and on the indoor coil, and the TXV will be hard drawn. This what goes for flaring. Until crimp prices drop like a stone, I won't be using them. They are way too expensive. (brazing really isn't that difficult. You could even use a propane torch if that's all you have. Just have to have the right sized tip) 

Cheers!


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

Dixon12 said:


> Is there a reason to redo some of the ducts? Haven't gotten to measuring it, but I'd think I can get a coil of the same dimensions as my current one and just plug and play.


If you get a cased coil, the odds it won't match the same dimensions as your old coil. Part of the reason is because new coils are bigger for efficiency.

When I did mine, I tried to get a coil that would fit my old ADP case and it was nearly impossible. I tried the local supply houses and all they had were Nordyne microchannel coils that weren't rated by AHRI. I found a cased ADP coil that at the Carrier distributor, but they will only sell to Carrier authorized retailers. Still even that coil wasn't rated by AHRI to my Rheem. I bit the bullet and just went with a Rheem cased N coil and this coil is Gigantic compared to the ADP coil I had with my old R22 system.

BTW, after I had everything done, I had called a childhood friend of my who's family owns a HVAC company to get a vibration collar. Come to find out, he told me he could have gotten me coil from Carrier because his family's HVAC company is the oldest Carrier dealer in the state. Made me want to kick myself for not remembering him .. but at least I know that Carrier coil wasn't and AHRI match, but my Rheem coil is.


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## newguy12 (Mar 26, 2015)

What you should go with is a self contained package unit. and just run the duct work off the new unit. You won't have to solder anything at all. That might be the easiest way.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

For what its worth, I DIY'ed my system. I installed everything, wired it up then paid a licensed HVAC tech to braze the lineset, release the refrigerant, adjust it etc..... 

I will say I did spend about $400 or so in tools but I went a little "crazy" with it. e.g. I got a digital manometer to measure the static pressure to make sure it was close to spec (.5" w.c.), electric sheet metal shears (worth their weight in gold!) etc....

I paid the tech about $450 for his time and refrigerant. The most difficult part was actually *finding* one. Most won't do it on principle because they don't want to encourage people to take business from them. 

I saved somewhere around 4 grand doing it myself (5 ton system).... my motivations were saving the money (couldn't handle paying a tech $450/hr to do a residential system swap out) but mostly I wanted to learn about it..... this also saves me money in the future if I need to service it . e.g. a tech that came to work on a relatives HVAC wanted to charge $250 to replace the start/run cap on the condenser.... they said no of course after talking with me . I picked one up for $20 and did it for them. 

My advice, if your sole motivation is saving 1 to 2 grand, I would just pay a tech to do it. Probably going to take 1-2 guys about 6 hours-ish to get it all done, so that is a reasonable - IMHO. 

My system was something like $3500 in parts alone and was around $8000 to pay a company to do it. Rule of thumb I noticed is it about 2.5X what the cost of the system components are.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

sidejobjoe said:


> For what its worth, I DIY'ed my system. I installed everything, wired it up then paid a licensed HVAC tech to braze the lineset, release the refrigerant, adjust it etc..... I will say I did spend about $400 or so in tools but I went a little "crazy" with it. e.g. I got a digital manometer to measure the static pressure to make sure it was close to spec (.5" w.c.), electric sheet metal shears (worth their weight in gold!) etc.... I paid the tech about $450 for his time and refrigerant. The most difficult part was actually *finding* one. Most won't do it on principle because they don't want to encourage people to take business from them. I saved somewhere around 4 grand doing it myself (5 ton system).... my motivations were saving the money (couldn't handle paying a tech $450/hr to do a residential system swap out) but mostly I wanted to learn about it..... this also saves me money in the future if I need to service it . e.g. a tech that came to work on a relatives HVAC wanted to charge $250 to replace the start/run cap on the condenser.... they said no of course after talking with me . I picked one up for $20 and did it for them. My advice, if your sole motivation is saving 1 to 2 grand, I would just pay a tech to do it. Probably going to take 1-2 guys about 6 hours-ish to get it all done, so that is a reasonable - IMHO. My system was something like $3500 in parts alone and was around $8000 to pay a company to do it. Rule of thumb I noticed is it about 2.5X what the cost of the system components are.


 what brand did you go with?


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

Congratulations. The main pitfall for me would be the typical requirement using a licensed installer to make the warrantly valid. Did your guy give you a receipt showing that he installed the equipment with serial# and/or sign the paperwork ?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

I installed a 2.5 ton Goodman HP on my trane 90% gas furnace I ordered the box coil, the Lineset, and the outdoor unit from acwholesalers. I found a guy on craigslist to braze the Lineset, add the refrigerant and test the system. He was advertising "my equipment or yours" My material costs were my own and my time and materials labor cost from him was 250 bucks.

I since bought my own micron gage, flare tool, r410a tank, nitrogen tank with pressure regulator, gauge set, various hose fittings and valves, vacuum pump, clamp current meter. I installed a three zone minisplit in my upstairs additon with all that stuff. So I now have 2 diy systems working fine and know way more about HVAC than I care to.

I highly recommend getting the pro, taking a class first, or finding someone you know who brazes copper to do the linset.

For 250 bucks my guy didn't use a micron gauge on his vacuum, he didn't flow nitrogen gas during the brazing. But he did a nitrogen purge. That means the filter dryer had to collect any junk from the brazing. Still running fine after 6 years.

I recommend posting a craigslist ad Under "gigs" or "skilled trade" for a guy who is willing to do the brazing and setup and is willing to take time and materials payment. I would also ask that he have proper brazing equipment, micron gauge, nitrogen flow meter for use during brazing. 

You'll save thousands putting the equipment in. If your passionate about the workmanship you can also get a better product, as you are likely willing to spend 3 times the labor to do the sheet metal work and tape sealing correctly as was the case for me..


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Paul.le said:


> what brand did you go with?


The only brand I could get my hands on.... goodman . 

Though I have to say, I think the current built goodmans are decent system.... not top of the line but "good" enough .


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

rkpatt said:


> Congratulations. The main pitfall for me would be the typical requirement using a licensed installer to make the warrantly valid. Did your guy give you a receipt showing that he installed the equipment with serial# and/or sign the paperwork ?


Yes. I absolutely did that. This was a motivating factor to have a pro do it.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

zootjeff said:


> For 250 bucks my guy didn't use a micron gauge on his vacuum, he didn't flow nitrogen gas during the brazing. But he did a nitrogen purge. That means the filter dryer had to collect any junk from the brazing. Still running fine after 6 years.


It's funny, I almost signed a deal to pay a pro to do the whole thing. Got to the very end, ready to sign the contract and said BTW, I have one requirement, you must flow nitrogen while brazing the lineset. He flat out refused and said "we don't do it that way, if you want that done you'll have to find someone else". I was rather stunned at that because it was so completely ridiculous. So I walked away, by then I knew enough, had the confidence and the tolerance for risk to just do it myself..... so I said screw it, I'll DIY it. 

The other interesting thing is the licensed HVAC tech I hired, who was a veteran at it doing it for *many* years, hooked up his manifold set and temp probes to adjust the subcool and then I saw him whip out an old slide rule like card that shows saturation temps for R410a..... I kinda politely pointed out that the inner temp scale of the manifold gauge dial had that info on it - which he was surprised at.... he had an "ah-ha" moment over that . Seems if he ignored everything on there except the pressures. (I mean, not a big deal, he still knew what he was doing). 

He didn't use a micron gauge as well. I didn't call him on it because the pump ran for like 45 minutes or so while we were talking or something. So figured it was pretty good at that point and the filter/dryer would take care of any water vapor that could possibly be in there at that point. 


After all of those experiences, I then realized being a "licensed" HVAC tech means almost nothing . Got to make sure you have smart tech who really knows his/her stuff.... the HVAC license provides no assurance of that (it's suppose to). 

Like I said, I enjoyed doing it - learned alot. Like most things, it is "fun" to do unless you do it for a living .


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## TheRatKing (Jun 16, 2016)

crabjoe said:


> Do you really want to spend the $$$ to buy all or most of the stuff below?
> 
> Acetylene tank, torch, and regulator.
> Nitrogen tank, regulator, and flow indicator
> ...


With the way tool businesses are run a lot of that stuff can easily be rented. Plus he isn't going to be charging the system himself. You can still get a warranty on a unit if a licensed installer checks the system, charges it, and says it is okay. Trying to make it seem like this is a complicated process when I've seen some of the dumbest people in the world do the work is hilarious. Even the most complex tasks can be accomplished if the list of instructions is broken down small enough.


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## TheRatKing (Jun 16, 2016)

sidejobjoe said:


> It's funny, I almost signed a deal to pay a pro to do the whole thing. Got to the very end, ready to sign the contract and said BTW, I have one requirement, you must flow nitrogen while brazing the lineset. He flat out refused and said "we don't do it that way, if you want that done you'll have to find someone else". I was rather stunned at that because it was so completely ridiculous. So I walked away, by then I knew enough, had the confidence and the tolerance for risk to just do it myself..... so I said screw it, I'll DIY it.
> 
> The other interesting thing is the licensed HVAC tech I hired, who was a veteran at it doing it for *many* years, hooked up his manifold set and temp probes to adjust the subcool and then I saw him whip out an old slide rule like card that shows saturation temps for R410a..... I kinda politely pointed out that the inner temp scale of the manifold gauge dial had that info on it - which he was surprised at.... he had an "ah-ha" moment over that . Seems if he ignored everything on there except the pressures. (I mean, not a big deal, he still knew what he was doing).
> 
> ...


Precisely, I've had numerous technicians out to my place and the more I learned about HVAC the more I started questioning their competency. Of course I'm not trained in HVAC and probably sound like an idiot using improper terminology, but the stuff really isn't that complicated. I am now going to redo the entire installation that I paid thousands for, and redo all the insulation I paid $800 for, because it was done so horribly. I'm supposed to have minimum R30 in the attic and it is probably around R-10. I have gotten to the point where I trust very little work to tradesmen. Highly skilled workers who care about doing a good job are hard to come by or extremely expensive.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

With a brand new system with new lines you can pull a 500 micron vacuum in less than 10 minutes if your vacuum pump is in good shape with clean oil. Not having a micron gauge may not be a problem and you may be safe.

As far as flowing nitrogen it is debatable. Lots of guys don't and in theory it is a good idea. However it was not really recommended or done in smaller resi units until the 90's when R410 became popular. If the weld is done quickly with a oxy acetylene torch and not cooked for 5 minutes then there is no loose carbon forming or at least not on my welds that I see. We welded like that for over 20 yrs w/o problems. The filter drier will catch any problems and if you flush the lines with nitrogen or in the old days a good blast of freon then IMO you can be OK.

Nitrogen flushing for very expensive very low temp refrigeration systems or medical oxygen systems is necessary but I would not worry if it did not get done while welding if welded quickly and properly.

Of course I will get flamed but in reality it is not super critical IMO and I have not seen failures or plugged driers because of it. Compressors wear out or die from power surges or from freezeups or run w/o freon mostly IMO.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

TheRatKing said:


> I have gotten to the point where I trust very little work to tradesmen. Highly skilled workers who care about doing a good job are hard to come by or extremely expensive.


Amen.....


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

TheRatKing said:


> With the way tool businesses are run a lot of that stuff can easily be rented. Plus he isn't going to be charging the system himself. You can still get a warranty on a unit if a licensed installer checks the system, charges it, and says it is okay. Trying to make it seem like this is a complicated process when I've seen some of the dumbest people in the world do the work is hilarious. Even the most complex tasks can be accomplished if the list of instructions is broken down small enough.


when people say licensed installer have many meaning. It can be EPA certified, HVAC certified, or contractor license. In many areas, HVAC certified is not required, and I have to respect the guys who are HVAC certified because they are theory, practical, and experience and also expensive. EPA certified is for someone like you and I who would like to touch the refrigerant, and these guys might not know as much as some of you guys are in this discussion. contractor license is required just for doing the business and get permit in the area.

warranty is two things with HVAC technician, parts and labor. labor is one year for most of these guys. And if you do a decent job it not likely to break in a year. For parts you get 10 years, and it is your cost to have it replace.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

yuri said:


> With a brand new system with new lines you can pull a 500 micron vacuum in less than 10 minutes if your vacuum pump is in good shape with clean oil. Not having a micron gauge may not be a problem and you may be safe.
> 
> As far as flowing nitrogen it is debatable. Lots of guys don't and in theory it is a good idea. However it was not really recommended or done in smaller resi units until the 90's when R410 became popular. If the weld is done quickly with a oxy acetylene torch and not cooked for 5 minutes then there is no loose carbon forming or at least not on my welds that I see. We welded like that for over 20 yrs w/o problems. The filter drier will catch any problems and if you flush the lines with nitrogen or in the old days a good blast of freon then IMO you can be OK.
> 
> ...


A childhood friend of mine that's been in HVAC as long as I can remember... When we were kids, me wanted to be a maintenance guy ... not a cop, firefighter, president, doctor, lawyer, etc, but a maintenance guy.. has been brazing lines for decades now and he tells me he never uses nitrogen for brazing, and he's never had a problem...

Me, being an amateur will use a nitrogen flow every time.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

TheRatKing said:


> Precisely, I've had numerous technicians out to my place and the more I learned about HVAC the more I started questioning their competency. Of course I'm not trained in HVAC and probably sound like an idiot using improper terminology, but the stuff really isn't that complicated. I am now going to redo the entire installation that I paid thousands for, and redo all the insulation I paid $800 for, because it was done so horribly. I'm supposed to have minimum R30 in the attic and it is probably around R-10. I have gotten to the point where I trust very little work to tradesmen. Highly skilled workers who care about doing a good job are hard to come by or extremely expensive.


The hardest part of getting a tradesman is finding the right ones. Once you find one, keep him/her, even if they're a little pricey. 

BTW, just today, I was talking with a friend of mine because he was wondering who the Rheem distributor in the area was and we were just talking about some odd stuff he's run into. He was telling me that he was on a job where his co-worker asked him which direction a filter dryer had to be installed. He asked why he was asking such a dumb question. The guy told him he can never remember which way the refrigerant flows, so he normally installs bi-flow filter dryers, but the supply house was out of stock. Sheesh.... He and I were cracking up as to how a HVAC tech can't remember which was refrigerant flows in a AC system.

Now the a good tech is a good tech... My old neighbor was so good, he could tell you what might be wrong by just hearing a AC/heat pump/furnace run or by the symptoms described. When I first moved into my current place, my gas furnace stopped working. I told him the error code and he told me what to check, on my unit... He was dead on right on the 1st try... There were other HVAC stuff I needed help with and he was always right. He left the trade long ago and now works as an electrical engineer for a defense contractor... There went one of the good ones...


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

sidejobjoe said:


> .
> ..
> After all of those experiences, I then realized being a "licensed" HVAC tech means almost nothing . Got to make sure you have smart tech who really knows his/her stuff.... the HVAC license provides no assurance of that (it's suppose to).
> 
> Like I said, I enjoyed doing it - learned alot. Like most things, it is "fun" to do unless you do it for a living .


You could say the same thing about a lawyer or doctor or engineer. Just because they could pass a few predefined tests doesn't mean they can apply it to the real world. Remember half of the certified professionals graduated in the bottom half of the class.... 



crabjoe said:


> The hardest part of getting a tradesman is finding the right ones. Once you find one, keep him/her, even if they're a little pricey.
> 
> BTW, just today, I was talking with a friend of mine because he was wondering who the Rheem distributor in the area was and we were just talking about some odd stuff he's run into. He was telling me that he was on a job where his co-worker asked him which direction a filter dryer had to be installed. He asked why he was asking such a dumb question. The guy told him he can never remember which way the refrigerant flows, so he normally installs bi-flow filter dryers, but the supply house was out of stock. Sheesh.... He and I were cracking up as to how a HVAC tech can't remember which was refrigerant flows in a AC system.
> 
> Now the a good tech is a good tech... My old neighbor was so good, he could tell you what might be wrong by just hearing a AC/heat pump/furnace run or by the symptoms described. When I first moved into my current place, my gas furnace stopped working. I told him the error code and he told me what to check, on my unit... He was dead on right on the 1st try... There were other HVAC stuff I needed help with and he was always right. He left the trade long ago and now works as an electrical engineer for a defense contractor... There went one of the good ones...


Yea, some just memorize the steps not even the theory. (Even if they memorize the theory doesn't mean they can apply it) 

If they are smart enough to be "good" at this trade, eventually they move on to something less hard on the body or just retire. It can be a fun trade and being outdoors is great... But some days i second guess why I'm going this racket. (you know those days where they say that you should stay inside and avoid strainious activity. 


Cheers!


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

zootjeff said:


> I highly recommend getting the pro, taking a class first, or finding someone you know who brazes copper to do the linset.


You don't really need to braze. A good silver solder works fine, and you don't need to do a nitrogen sweep with soldering.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

rkpatt said:


> Congratulations. The main pitfall for me would be the typical requirement using a licensed installer to make the warrantly valid. Did your guy give you a receipt showing that he installed the equipment with serial# and/or sign the paperwork ?


I have never had a lot of faith in warranties. Most (IMO) aren't worth the paper they're written on. You may not get charged for the part in many cases but you still get dinged PLENTY for the labor


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The thing is Staybrite 8 needs very good cleaning of the copper lines and fluxing and if you are not great at silver soldering you may end up with leaks. I can just imagine some Dude getting flux inside his lines or messing it up.

Nothing wrong with DIYing as long as you do a ton of research, have proper tools and know what you are doing.

Silfoss makes a stronger weld and is better for vibration.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> The thing is Staybrite 8 needs very good cleaning of the copper lines and fluxing and if you are not great at silver soldering you may end up with leaks. I can just imagine some Dude getting flux inside his lines or messing it up.
> 
> Nothing wrong with DIYing as long as you do a ton of research, have proper tools and know what you are doing.
> 
> Silfoss makes a stronger weld and is better for vibration.


Well, if you're not good with a tooth brush then you'll end up with lots of cavities too. Point being that if you don't know what you are doing then just about anything you touch is doomed to fail.

Silver solders (like staybrite) offer a good seal at lower baking temperatures (less risk to burning and warping up sensitive parts). I'm not sure I would recommend its use near the compressor where there is lots of vibration, but overall if you have done it properly then it's as trustworthy as brazing.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Some Silver solders are actually brazing as defined by the CSA B52 and the American Welders Association. (AWS) (any filler that melts above 450*C/842*F is brazing) 

FYI: soldering is actually outlawed in the B52 on all refrigeration systems.

https://ewi.org/should-you-solder-it-or-braze-it/

However, stay-bright and stay-bright 8 is actually soldering. (278*c)

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If you don't get it perfectly clean and right the first time there is no easy way of going back and re-doing it. With silfoss you can.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

1. But for new equipment warranty purposes, doesn't licensed installed mean state issued HVAC contractor's license ? License # submitted with warranty registration ?




Paul.le said:


> when people say licensed installer have many meaning. It can be EPA certified, HVAC certified, or contractor license. In many areas, HVAC certified is not required, and I have to respect the guys who are HVAC certified because they are theory, practical, and experience and also expensive. EPA certified is for someone like you and I who would like to touch the refrigerant, and these guys might not know as much as some of you guys are in this discussion. contractor license is required just for doing the business and get permit in the area.
> 
> warranty is two things with HVAC technician, parts and labor. labor is one year for most of these guys. And if you do a decent job it not likely to break in a year. For parts you get 10 years, and it is your cost to have it replace.





2. +1 for Brazing (vs soldering) on refrigerant lines for me. Means more equipment for DIYer (air-acetylene or oxy acetylene toch) but a lot stronger joint.

"Silfoss makes a stronger weld and is better for vibration."


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Paul.le said:


> when people say licensed installer have many meaning. It can be EPA certified,


An EPA 608 cert, is not a license. And in the old days when you took your EPA test, they told you that.

In states that have no license for HVAC. Then the installer's Company name, address, and phone number on an invoice can be used as proof of a qualified installer having performed the job.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

That is the peculiarity of refrigeration and AC.

Unlike gas and oil burners in Canada where you need a license to install them and supposedly to service them, AC requires none.

Gas and oil are hazardous and freon is not. Even with refrigeration ( unless you are operating a large ammonia plant ) you don't need a license. With high pressure steam plants you do in Canada ( Power Engineers ) because of the pressure vessels acts/codes. Electricians need licenses because of the dangers and plumbers do if they install boilers or gas water heaters. Ours get their resi license as part of their Apprenticeship.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

rkpatt said:


> Means more equipment for DIYer (air-acetylene or oxy acetylene toch) but a lot stronger joint.


Technically propane and NG both are more then hot enough to braze with. The only requirement is to put out enough btus to heat the heat sink we call a pipe, so the little plumbers tips won't do, you need a size or 2 bigger. 




yuri said:


> That is the peculiarity of refrigeration and AC.
> 
> Unlike gas and oil burners in Canada where you need a license to install them and supposedly to service them, AC requires none.
> ...


On Ontario you do need a license. Part of that requirement is 5 years of apprenticeship (documented activities included), a CoQ test, and almost 1000 hours of mandatory in class training. (double that for the union, as they mandate night school.) On top of that, recently the OCT has been going around enforcing it. (along with their annual fees) 

Cheers!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

In Manitoba you are supposed to have a gas license to "service" furnaces but as we both know there are guys doing it w/o one.

Our entry level guys who clean furnaces and ACs are not allowed to pull the burners w/o a license so yeah we get them licensed ASAP. Within their first year we sign them up for the refrigeration license and once they get some hours in we send them to gas school.

With the freon Gestapo MOPIA and our Gov't pretty soon you will need a license to work on ACs. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Industrial refrigeration you have mechanical engineers design it BUT most large refrig companies require Red Seal Journeyman to work for them. They install and service it and most are unionized. Totally different world than resi due to the huge $$ value of the equipment and products being cooled etc.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> You don't really need to braze. A good silver solder works fine, and you don't need to do a nitrogen sweep with soldering.


 what is silver solder?


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> I have never had a lot of faith in warranties. Most (IMO) aren't worth the paper they're written on. You may not get charged for the part in many cases but you still get dinged PLENTY for the labor


 agree. I installed a Sure system with a lisence installer. After two years the compressor locked. I called the guy and the cost to swap the compressor is like 300.00 less than the whole system.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Paul.le said:


> what is silver solder?


Filler material with silver content. Usually somewhere between 2-50% for various bAg alloys. Some are actual soldering while some are brazing. The terminology comes from jewelry makers long before we cared about the difference. 


Paul.le said:


> agree. I installed a Sure system with a lisence installer. After two years the compressor locked. I called the guy and the cost to swap the compressor is like 300.00 less than the whole system.


Mini splits are disposable. Expect $3-400ish cash in labour to change out a compressor. 

Cheers!


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

I am seeing both Lowes and Homedepot are selling Kelvinator system. Do any of you have an opinion about this brand?


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

That brand is owned by electrolux. It's just as disposable, as any other brand. Dunno where it's made, but the design is probably leased. (very common for these units) 

Cheers!


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

On the AC unit, i am seeing 2 copper lines, small & big one. Which one is low and which one is high? And which one going in the A coil? I can feel the small one is hot and the big one is cold with insulation.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Paul.le said:


> On the AC unit, i am seeing 2 copper lines, small & big one. Which one is low and which one is high? And which one going in the A coil? I can feel the small one is hot and the big one is cold with insulation.


The large line is Vapor (low pressure leaving the evaporator or "a coil") and the small line is liquid (high pressure going to the evaporator).


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

rkpatt said:


> 2. +1 for Brazing (vs soldering) on refrigerant lines for me. Means more equipment for DIYer (air-acetylene or oxy acetylene toch) but a lot stronger joint.


The home diy'er can do brazing pretty cheaply. You can get MAPP/oxy torch kits for about 80 bucks. One (disposable) Oxygen container will last about 20 minutes... enough to do a new install.










http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/w..._source=RatingsAndReviews&utm_content=Default

I have found however that straight MAPP gas with a high quality torch head is enough to braze copper. It does take a bit longer to bring the copper to temperature though.

I still prefer silver solder though.... you don't have to heat the snot out of everything.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

supers05 said:


> That brand is owned by electrolux. It's just as disposable, as any other brand. Dunno where it's made, but the design is probably leased. (very common for these units)
> 
> Cheers!


I thought they were just rebadged Nordyne.


Paul.le said:


> On the AC unit, i am seeing 2 copper lines, small & big one. Which one is low and which one is high? And which one going in the A coil? I can feel the small one is hot and the big one is cold with insulation.



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Could be. A lot of them are identical in design even when manufactured by different companies. Re-branding of duckless systems is so common, it's hard to tell who actually makes what.... Lol

Cheers!


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

supers05 said:


> Could be. A lot of them are identical in design even when manufactured by different companies. Re-branding of duckless systems is so common, it's hard to tell who actually makes what.... Lol Cheers!


 My main concern now day is product made oversea or China. We seem to suffer quality a lot in this way.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

i run by this eBook which is used for HVAC vocational. It has all the information you need for DIYers. 

http://www.argocontractor.net/store/p7/Fundamentals_of_HVACR_2nd_Edition_Free_Download.html

enjoy reading


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## mknmike (Feb 5, 2011)

I've done this myself before and broke all sorts of codes, undersized the ductwork and oversized the system. It's in a rental property that I was planning to sell instead of keeping it. It had window units that bad tenants moved from one window to another resulting in water in the walls that destroyed the first floor ceiling. I decided to gut the house and install AC on the cheap while doing it. The downstairs gets ice cold with intense winds and the upstairs main bedroom is a hot box with added full time fans blowing extra air into the room. The system sucks but it's a lot better than what the house had before. 

I had a licensed HVAC guy install the equipment and it only cost me a few thousand for him and his friend to do it as side work. I think it was under $5-6000 for the full install almost 10 years ago now. It was a Goodman system and I think it's still kicking with zero maintenance. I shouldn't be writing this as I'm sure that system is due to break down on me. 

Given the aggravation and the poor performance of the system, it sounds insane, but I have zero regrets about spending $19,000 to have a high velocity system installed by high velocity specialists in only 4 days. This house is over twice the size, and has four living floors instead of 2, but the AC unit is up in the 4th floor attic and has leads all the way to the first floor and it cools really well. I might want to move a few of the leads around a little bit, but I have zero regrets about laying out that $19,000. 

I also have zero regrets about the hack of a system ducted myself (after having tools and experience doing another poor performing city row home side-by-side with my plumber) which also is now the 95% efficient heating system instead of the old oil furnace and radiators I left in the house. But I had to hire a pro, and if he didn't already know and like me, I'm sure he wouldn't have touched the job with a 10-foot pole. It was a pure favor. 

You better know somebody and get their input before you embark on installing your own system. Even in cases that you do, the systems can still suck.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Paul.le said:


> i run by this eBook which is used for HVAC vocational. It has all the information you need for DIYers.
> 
> http://www.argocontractor.net/store/p7/Fundamentals_of_HVACR_2nd_Edition_Free_Download.html
> 
> enjoy reading


At 1500 pages, and the other e-book there is 1800 pages. Not exactly light reading... 

Cheers!


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## DTRiemer (Jun 11, 2016)

A bit late to the discussion but I'll still chip in. My partner and I are planning to replace the old AC unit on the house we are moving into with the one we've always wanted to buy at https://newacunit.com/shop/ and DIY install it but we are leaning more to leaving the whole installation to their crew to make sure that it is set up perfectly. Just my 2 cents, if you are confident with your DIY AC install skills then go for it :thumbsup:


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Is it true that epa cert is not required to handle R-410a system?


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Paul.le said:


> Is it true that epa cert is not required to handle R-410a system?


It's not required to purchase the refrigerant. It is required to use it. It may be required to hook up a system that is precharged, maybe not. (I don't know, I suspect nobody cares unless an EPA agent is right in front of you when you do it)

You can get the certification by answering multiple choice questions on an open book test online and paying a $25 fee. So you can just get one in a few hours right before you use the refrigerant you ordered.


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## rey830 (Apr 6, 2016)

If you purchase your furnace or AC unit good luck getting any company to install it. Most will not. However, if you find a tech that works for said company who is willing to do it under the table for some cash.....No warranty obviously and it never happened...


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Habeed said:


> It's not required to purchase the refrigerant. It is required to use it. It may be required to hook up a system that is precharged, maybe not. (I don't know, I suspect nobody cares unless an EPA agent is right in front of you when you do it)
> 
> You can get the certification by answering multiple choice questions on an open book test online and paying a $25 fee. So you can just get one in a few hours right before you use the refrigerant you ordered.


In the USA, there is no EPA cert for R410A to buy it or use it. EPA section 608 is a CFC HCFC cert. R410A is HFC, and not cover by section 608, with exception to the no venting, and recovery regs. As section 608 contains the words no chemical being used as a refrigerant may be vented.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> In the USA, there is no EPA cert for R410A to buy it or use it. EPA section 608 is a CFC HCFC cert. R410A is HFC, and not cover by section 608, with exception to the no venting, and recovery regs. As section 608 contains the words no chemical being used as a refrigerant may be vented.


It should be made clear that in Canada you DO require certification to handle/use/buy ANY cfc,hcfc, or hfc refrigerant. This includes R410a, R608, R22. Smaller "top off" and disposable bottles are no longer sold in Canada either (although you can still legally import)


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

I have installed (replaced) several systems in the past (pre-EPA 608). I those days, the local supply house would handle a failed part warranty (only happened once-DOA fan motor). My work was better that what was there correcting mistakes made by the original or previous installer. Even big name companies said by many to be "reputable" do poor quality work ripping people off every day. This is the main reason why I prefer DIY whenever possible. However, the warranty issue is big one for me. I would hate to have a $$$ component be DOA or fail shortly after installation and no warranty. Still trying to figure this out....


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

rkpatt said:


> I have installed (replaced) several systems in the past (pre-EPA 608). I those days, the local supply house would handle a failed part warranty (only happened once-DOA fan motor). My work was better that what was there correcting mistakes made by the original or previous installer. Even big name companies said by many to be "reputable" do poor quality work ripping people off every day. This is the main reason why I prefer DIY whenever possible. However, the warranty issue is big one for me. I would hate to have a $$$ component be DOA or fail shortly after installation and no warranty. Still trying to figure this out....



Read the warranty, most these days require registration for the 10yr parts warranty, and 5 years without. Registration doesn't say licensed or certified installed to get the warranty; at least the ones I've seen. They just ask for the installing company name. And even if you don't ever register it, the odds are you'll get the 5. This all varies on different brands.

As for the local supply house handling the warranty, the ones around me still do, but they don't carry brands like Trane, Carrier, Rheem, Lennox. They carry brands like Ducane, Armstrong, Nordyne. Stuff you've probably never seen advertised on TV or a billboard.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

After check a litte bit ,it seems the local suppy houses in my area (including the one I used to buy from) now all seem to branches of a regional or national company and will not sell equipment to anyone without a state HVAC contractor's license. So far it is looking like that I would have to purchase the equiptment elsewhere and have it shipped . I would not mind using the G brand or one of those listed below and I would prefer get local local warranty service. 

Please feel free to PM.


"As for the local supply house handling the warranty, the ones around me still do, but they don't carry brands like Trane, Carrier, Rheem, Lennox. They carry brands like Ducane, Armstrong, Nordyne. Stuff you've probably never seen advertised on TV or a billboard."


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

rkpatt said:


> However, the warranty issue is big one for me. I would hate to have a $$$ component be DOA or fail shortly after installation and no warranty. Still trying to figure this out....


Well, I know Goodman requires a pro to start it up...... don't know if that it actually "enforced" or not. 

There is some risk but the way I figured it, say there is a catastrophic problem with the entire outdoor unit - and they won't honor my warranty. I could take it out and put in a brand new one and still come out ahead money wise. 

That doesn't even factor in the longer term savings since you learn so much installing a system, you can troubleshoot alot problems yourself - saving you service calls. 



The top 2 things I "worry" about are:

Leak in coils.
ECM failure (my static pressure is higher than "normal" @ .7 wc). 

Those would be very expensive failures.... (compressor too, but I don't worry about it as much since scrolls are so reliable). 


They are fairly simple appliances (for the average home anyways), if you check and maintain them you can get ahead of alot of problems before they start. 
As such, I check my refrigerant levels every other year (unless there is a problem of course) and I check my static pressure every year (maybe twice) to make sure I keep it as low as possible (basically, making sure the coils/filter is clean as possible). 

I thought about it alot and decided to take the risk. I may regret it someday but it is likely I will not. The reason the manufactures offer 10 year warranties on this gear is because it is fairly reliable. And the failures that do occur are unusually not extremely expensive parts (e.g. electronic control boards, contactors, caps etc...).


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

rkpatt said:


> After check a litte bit ,it seems the local suppy houses in my area (including the one I used to buy from) now all seem to branches of a regional or national company and will not sell equipment to anyone without a state HVAC contractor's license. So far it is looking like that I would have to purchase the equiptment elsewhere and have it shipped . I would not mind using the G brand or one of those listed below and I would prefer get local local warranty service.


Around me, the most of the supply houses will sell if one has an EPA card. But when I was looking for a specific coil last year, I found out there was a supply house in VA that had it in stock. I called them and they wouldn't sell you anyone without a Virginia business license... I even asked if they would sell to an MD licensed HVAC company (Was going to have my buddy get it for me), and they wouldn't do it.. They said only Va business licenses.

I guess you're going to have to mail order... The supply house can sell to who they want ... and if you're not in their club, you're out... That was my experience with the supply house in Virginia.

Good Luck!


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

I'm sounding like a broken record here - but, mini splits, fellas. Most of these warranties don't cover labor. If you buy 3 or 5 mini splits, from several different brands that do offer 5+ year warranties, the probability of more than 1 of them failing over the next 5 years isn't very high. Sometimes the manufacturer will honor the warranty even without a licensed installer having done the work anyway. Even if they don't - _if you can DIY a replacement, the parts warranty that only a licensed installer can get wasn't saving you any money!_ You can buy a whole new outdoor or indoor unit for what a licensed installer would charge in labor...

Even the ultra premium mini split brands, no single component is more than $1000. And I'm referring to the whole thing, not even changing a part inside it.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Ducane is owned by Lennox and most of the units are identical clones to the 1st/2nd tier Lennox units. Actually a better bang for yer buck as you don't pay for the brown paint/L logo. They even use Lennox part #s.

Armstrong is owned by Lennox but they still have their own theme and version of units which are not clones.

3-5 mini-splits IMO is like 3-5 window shaker units. Minis will blow air at your head and you don't get the same comfort and circulation as with a central unit with supply and return ducts. Especially in a large house. However everyone is entitled to their opinion and what they feel is important.

Try gets parts for these Chineez knockoff minis in 5-10 yrs. About as much chance of that as seeing Elvis at the BKing. If the ultra thin copper does not burst before then. I guess you can chuck them and put a new one in but what a hassle IMO.

IMO Minis are specialty units for places where you have no ductwork.

The odds of you have a DOA Goodman are VERY rare and I have never had a DOA Lennox. Unless you drop it and bust the compressor off the springs they all work well out of the box.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

I guess that I will go ahead and get EPA 608 certified (type 1, II needed ?) and walk in and try some other supply houses.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Alpine seems popular and I have not heard anything bad about them.

Supply houses are under indirect pressure from contractors to not sell to DIYers. If they see a DIYer at the counter they get upset and can take their biz elsewhere. There are also warranty return issues with DIYers not having proper tools or test procedures and knowing how to test circuit boards etc and burning them out and bringing them back. Too much hassle for them I imagine.

I would recommend Alpine and avoid the hassle of the supply houses.

It is what it is and I am not going to defend them or argue.

Plumbing supply houses are no different and same with electrical.


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

I talked alpinehomeair.com sale associate couple weeks ago. They are pretty supportive DIYers. According to my conversation with them, They honor our warrantee. Also they provide lifetime technical support. I also got recommendation to buy from Ingram website. When you are ready they will walk you through the installation.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

I am going to check around locally some more. Has anyone here purchased equipment from Budget Air Supply in FL via fleabay? Feedback on them is appreciated.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

sidejobjoe said:


> Well, I know Goodman requires a pro to start it up...... don't know if that it actually "enforced" or not.


That's not Goodman... That's Alpine home air ( http://www.alpinehomeair.com/ ) who sells Goodman. They offer as close to a DIY warranty as possible. They allow you to install everything yourself. You simply need a licensed person to check it and do the initial start up, and sign off on it.

I bought a 4 ton goodman heat pump and air handler from them and installed myself. I didn't bother with the Pro start though... I don't have a lot of respect for Warranties. Did a lot of custom work that wouldn't be covered anyway.

All the stuff Alpine sells comes with COMPLETE sets of pdf install and maintenance manuals. They try and make things as DIY as possible.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> It should be made clear that in Canada you DO require certification to handle/use/buy ANY cfc,hcfc, or hfc refrigerant. This includes R410a, R608, R22. Smaller "top off" and disposable bottles are no longer sold in Canada either (although you can still legally import)


I thought the first line saying " In the USA" made it clear I was only talking about the USA.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> I thought the first line saying " In the USA" made it clear I was only talking about the USA.


I never said you weren't clear about the USA. I'm simply pointing out that the laws are different in Canada and there are Canadians on this board.

Maybe someone else can chime in on the laws in other Countries?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> I never said you weren't clear about the USA. I'm simply pointing out that the laws are different in Canada and there are Canadians on this board.
> 
> Maybe someone else can chime in on the laws in other Countries?


You can start a new thread of/for EPA refrigerant regs for different countries if you feel its important to get that info out. 

Yes, there are lots of members here from other countries. But both the OP, and the member that asked about the EPA cert requirement for R410A are in the USA. So only an answer of consequence in the USA is/was needed. Lets not confuse people reading this thread with a host of regs from a country/countries that they aren't in.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

How is the liquid line connect to the evaporator? Blaze or quick connect?


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Bob Sanders said:


> That's not Goodman... That's Alpine home air ( http://www.alpinehomeair.com/ ) who sells Goodman. They offer as close to a DIY warranty as possible. They allow you to install everything yourself. You simply need a licensed person to check it and do the initial start up, and sign off on it.


I looked up their warranty and it appears the language has changed a bit from when I got mine (probably due to dealers whining about it). 

Their warranty now says:

(does not apply to) 

" Units that are ordered over the Internet, by telephone, or by
other electronic means unless the unit is installed by a dealer
adhering to all applicable federal, state, and local codes,
policies, and licensing requirements."

I think the magnuson-moss warranty act would say different .


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Paul.le said:


> How is the liquid line connect to the evaporator? Blaze or quick connect?


It will be either a 1/4" flare nut to a TX valve or a braze on to a adaptor which attaches to a orifice fitting.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> I looked up their warranty and it appears the language has changed a bit from when I got mine (probably due to dealers whining about it).
> 
> Their warranty now says:
> 
> ...


Yeah but who is going to afford to hire a lawyer to fight it or them?

I wonder how they define dealer?

If Yuri is a one man heat em and cheat em outfit with a beat up pickup and yet he has a Journeyman Refrigeration mechanic license but is not a "dealer" of any one brand and sells whatever is the cheapest today and pays cash for his units. Is he considered OK?

There are lots of small outfits who are not registered dealers as you have to pay to be one and get the brand advertising. Probably have to prove to them you are in business doing HVAC. Not sure how that works if you need to have a business license or number maybe? I Imagine that may vary from State to State so it may be a logistical nightmare for them if push came to shove.

Once again it probably goes back to the little guy to prove he is legit or hire a lawyer or raise a stink.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> I looked up their warranty and it appears the language has changed a bit from when I got mine (probably due to dealers whining about it).
> 
> Their warranty now says:
> 
> ...


No. They are not saying you must use only their approved contractors. So their stipulation is valid and legal 

But you must have looked at an old copy of warranty

As it has changed again


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

sidejobjoe said:


> I looked up their warranty and it appears the language has changed a bit from when I got mine (probably due to dealers whining about it).


Alpine home air's Warranty:



> A licensed contractor's receipt indicating that you had a licensed contractor either install *or inspect your equipment before start-up* is required to validate your warranty. The licensed contractor should be a professional whose contact information can be verified in a phone directory. Alternatively, you can provide documentation showing that your equipment was inspected by your city's mechanical department, or by your local utility company. Without a receipt from a licensed contractor, city mechanical department or utility company, we cannot process warranty parts or claims for you unless otherwise approved.


http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cfm?objID=EF90B5D5-ABF4-43EF-91EB-1D6019A0E079


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

beenthere said:


> No. They are not saying you must use only their approved contractors. So their stipulation is valid and legal


Isn't saying "by a dealer" is the same as their contractors? i.e. it has to be a goodman dealer, not Joe's Heat'em and Cheat'em Licensed HVAC shop.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Bob Sanders said:


> Alpine home air's Warranty:
> ...either install or inspect your equipment before start-up is required to validate your warranty.


Yes, I know Alpine will honor it if you do these steps. But the question is can I call up a goodman dealer HVAC shop around me and have them perform warranty service (part only, obviously). i.e. is *goodmans* warranty still good. 

Regardless, it is kind of academic to me, even without a warranty, I would have to have an amazing string of very expensive parts to fail for me to come out behind.


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

I feel the bottom line is this .... If you use a company like Alpineair, odds are, they will warranty your parts since they're the supplier or dealer. For them to get paid/credit, it's between them and the manufacture. I'm thinking they'll ask if you used a licensed installer for install or startup/inspection and that's probably it..

Now, that was a guess on my part ... But the reason I guessed that was is because whenever I've warrantied at part at the local supply house I've done it twice in 15 years or so), which I don't have an account with, I just take the receipt in and tell them I need to warranty it. It's a no-hassle situation. But it could be because they don't sell to the general public.

BTW, 6 years ago, I had to warranty a 4yo Rheem hot water heater. The only thing the distributor wanted was the sticker that had the serial/model number on it. They didn't ask who installed it, who might install the replacement, or even why I needed a warranty replacement. I was shocked at how easy it was for a $1600 water heater.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> Isn't saying "by a dealer" is the same as their contractors? i.e. it has to be a goodman dealer, not Joe's Heat'em and Cheat'em Licensed HVAC shop.


No. Since the contractor isn't owned or employed by Goodman. Plus, Goodman has the right to try to make sure the equipment they make is installed properly. Which by requiring it be a Goodman dealer is an accepted way by the feds.

However, they can't denied a warranty part just because you use a non Goodman dealer to service your unit. That would be a violation.

As for someone using "Joe's Heat'em and Cheat'em Licensed HVAC shop". They probably won't come out to do warranty work anyway.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

sidejobjoe said:


> Yes, I know Alpine will honor it if you do these steps. But the question is can I call up a goodman dealer HVAC shop around me and have them perform warranty service (part only, obviously). i.e. is *goodmans* warranty still good.
> 
> Regardless, it is kind of academic to me, even without a warranty, I would have to have an amazing string of very expensive parts to fail for me to come out behind.


If you buy it from Alpineair, and install it yourself. No, you can't get the warranty part from a Goodman dealer. Since their is no warranty from Goodman on it.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Warranty is interesting topic now. In my state you can install a system without an HVAC license as long as you are EPA certified. According to the policy it seems to be fine if you can pull a city permit and have an inspection after the installation. In my area I can go to the county to apply for an HVAC contractor license event I never installed one system.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

In the real world warranty returns of parts are getting to be a huge hassle with some of the major brands (L and C come to mind). They want them done electronically and if you are not one of their dealers it is a hassle. Like Train charging non dealers $800 for a evap coil and making them jump thru hoops to process it.

I suspect if you DIY and call a Goodman dealer to change the part they will charge you a large processing fee to return it to Goodman/get credit as it is a hassle for them to do the paperwork or filing and keep the part for 6 months in their shop. The manufacturers only want failed compressors and the rest of the parts they randomly check.

Probably Alpine sells LOTS of Goodman units and I mean lots and has a cozy relationship with them. As long as both parties feel it has been inspected properly they are OK with DIYers. It is a numbers game. If they sell 1000 units and have a under 5% parts return rate they are comfortable and just want a proper install. After that Mr. Dumbazz homeowner can neglect his filter and freezeup his unit and destroy the compressor and their ain't nothing they can do about it. Now if they were not so cheap and put in low pressure controls that would not happen. Once again it is a numbers game as not too many compressors fail anyway. A bad install could do more damage if the lines were kinked or the unit grossly out of level etc.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

sidejobjoe said:


> Yes, I know Alpine will honor it if you do these steps. But the question is can I call up a goodman dealer HVAC shop around me and have them perform warranty service (part only, obviously). i.e. is *goodmans* warranty still good.
> 
> Regardless, it is kind of academic to me, even without a warranty, I would have to have an amazing string of very expensive parts to fail for me to come out behind.


No.
This warranty is set forth by Alpine, not Goodman.

I'm of the same mind. I didn't worry about a warranty when I installed mine. Even if the compressor blew inside of 24 hours, I sure wouldn't be that happy... but I'd still be ahead.... and I'd install/start the new compressor myself. I have little faith in warranties... and service people for that matter.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Bob Sanders said:


> No. This warranty is set forth by Alpine, not Goodman. I'm of the same mind. I didn't worry about a warranty when I installed mine. Even if the compressor blew inside of 24 hours, I sure wouldn't be that happy... but I'd still be ahead.... and I'd install/start the new compressor myself. I have little faith in warranties... and service people for that matter.


 how long have your been installed?


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Paul.le said:


> how long have your been installed?


It's been almost a year now. No issues so far. It's a good machine and whisper quiet. It's a heat pump so it got used pretty heavily over the Winter. Normally I would have nothing but resistive electric heating, but the new HP shaved almost $800 off the annual heating bill.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

-I realized I made an error in my assumptions, post deleted-


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> It's been almost a year now. No issues so far. It's a good machine and whisper quiet. It's a heat pump so it got used pretty heavily over the Winter. Normally I would have nothing but resistive electric heating, but the new HP shaved almost $800 off the annual heating bill.


Don't recall any post before today's that your unit is quiet, let a lone whisper quiet. Kind of thought you posted more then once that its kind of loud in second stage.

Or are you just talking about the outdoor unit.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It must do a great job of cooling. 4 ton unit for a 2 ton house. Fortunately humidity removal is not a huge issue in Wpg. Going to have to wear a cap from all that 1600 cfm of of whisper quiet airflow blowing your hair around I would imagine. Just joking.:wink2:

However if it saves that amount of elec I would install 2. Gas is still cheaper.:biggrin2:


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> It's been almost a year now. No issues so far. It's a good machine and whisper quiet. It's a heat pump so it got used pretty heavily over the Winter. Normally I would have nothing but resistive electric heating, but the new HP shaved almost $800 off the annual heating bill.


Is that adjusted for the fact that we had less heating degree days this year? (yes some nights were down right bitter, but on average it was warmer) 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## crabjoe (Dec 18, 2015)

All I can tell you guys is this.. I put a heat pump in, in place of a AC, which made my setup dual fuel. I had and still have the propane furnace.

In the past, I had to get my propane tank filled every month from 6 or 7 months at a tune of $300 to $500 a month. This past winter with the heat pump, I took a total of 3 fill ups costing me from $200 to $400 for each fill up. My electric bill went up about $50 per month during that 6 or 7 month period. 

Even though we had a warmer winter than normal, I feel as though I'm way ahead.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Heat pumps are good if you burn Propane or use straight electric resistance heat.

Where I am our natural gas is reasonably priced as we produce it 2 Provinces away and have a trans Canada pipeline. Still quite a bit cheaper to use natural gas. Bob does not like the cost of repairs for high efficiency furnaces and will debate that.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Or are you just talking about the outdoor unit.


The outdoor unit.

The inside noise (although not too high) isn't a heat pump issue. It's a duct issue.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

supers05 said:


> Is that adjusted for the fact that we had less heating degree days this year? (yes some nights were down right bitter, but on average it was warmer)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


We figured on a $600 savings and it turned out to be $800. The extra $200 is probably due to the warmer Winter then usual.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

yuri said:


> It must do a great job of cooling.


I actually have the high stage locked out during the Summer months. Even with that though I can drop the temp pretty fast in the house. As pointed out, we don't really have to worry too much about humidity here so "cold and clammy" is not an issue.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> I actually have the high stage locked out during the Summer months. Even with that though I can drop the temp pretty fast in the house. As pointed out, we don't really have to worry too much about humidity here so "cold and clammy" is not an issue.


Why lock it out?


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> Why lock it out?


It's not required.

Heat pump sizing is a little difficult because you need more BTU's in the Winter than in the Summer.

For a normal Summer machine we need between 1.5 to 2 tons. This is a 4 ton machine because we sized it for the Winter (the Winter is our priority).
On low stage the machine puts out about 67% of its full output. That's around 2.5 tons. That's still more than we need for the Summer so the high stage would be WAY too much.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> It's not required.
> 
> Heat pump sizing is a little difficult because you need more BTU's in the Winter than in the Summer.
> 
> ...


In practice, won't the upper stage only activate if the dT between the indoor temperature and setpoint is extremely high? That sounds like acceptable behavior to me - normally it would never come on, but if you turned the A/C off and left the house for a day and came back, you'd be able to cool it back down to habitable temperatures extremely quickly. Or if the A/C failed and you just finished fixing it, etc.

I don't see what the benefit of locking out the high stage is. If the thermostat is smart enough to not use it except when you need it, it's nice to have. (and "smart" could be a mercury thermostat with 2 bulbs at different angles to each other, I assume that this was how it worked in the early days of 2 stage AC)


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> I don't see what the benefit of locking out the high stage is.


Thermostats are not actually "smart"... they're just programmed the way people THINK we need them to operate.

We have a cottage so we're not at home most weekends. The AC is turned off for most of the weekend so it could be 26 or 27 degrees C when I turn it on (through wifi at the cottage). If I did not lock out the high stage the thermostat would ASSUME the high stage to be needed at this time becuase of the large difference between the ambient temp (27C) and the set temp (21C). I want low stage only. We don't have to worry that much humidity here but still... high stage is too much, too fast


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

Bob Sanders said:


> Thermostats are not actually "smart"... they're just programmed the way people THINK we need them to operate.


I totally agree; to that end--throughout winter--I don't allow my stat to control recovery and I lockout aux electric heat and rely on the [single stage] heat pump except for very rare occasions.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

bfletcher7 said:


> I totally agree; to that end--throughout winter--I don't allow my stat to control recovery and I lockout aux electric heat and rely on the [single stage] heat pump except for very rare occasions.


That's kind of a different story, in that the aux electric heat is very inefficient and you'd rather wait for it to warm up instead of paying triple. The high mode on a 2 stage is only slightly less efficient.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> The high mode on a 2 stage is only slightly less efficient.


That depends on the operating condition. In some cases it's actually MORE efficient.

But efficiency has little to do with my decision to lock out the second stage. Humidity is the issue. Even in our fairly low humidity side of the world, dehumidifying takes time and if the air is cooled too fast then not enough humidity is removed and you end up with a cool/clammy feel to the air.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> That depends on the operating condition. In some cases it's actually MORE efficient.
> 
> But efficiency has little to do with my decision to lock out the second stage. Humidity is the issue. Even in our fairly low humidity side of the world, dehumidifying takes time and if the air is cooled too fast then not enough humidity is removed and you end up with a cool/clammy feel to the air.


Sure. But then after the AC ramps up to get things down to habitable levels, it will run periodically at low speed and bring your humidity down.

Shrug. Really, the whole system should monitor both humidity and temperature and control the speeds of both indoor and outdoor fans and the compressor. Using inverter motor drive, ofc. And they make system$$$ that do all this - but they obviously are too expensive. There should be both a temperature and a humidity setting on the interior stat.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

bfletcher7 said:


> I totally agree; to that end--throughout winter--I don't allow my stat to control recovery and I lockout aux electric heat and rely on the [single stage] heat pump except for very rare occasions.


LOL!
One of the reasons I did not bother with warranties is because I have customized the snot out of my system and there is no way it would ever be covered under warranty anyway.

In the Summer my high stage is locked out, but in the Winter (below 32F) my low stage is locked out. The machine is actually more efficient on full output in the Winter than on low stage. Granted it cycles more often as can be imagined but it also warms up faster on each cycle. We're also pretty low on humidity here in the Winter too so defrost cycles are that high either (except directly after a snow).

As for the resistive heat, I have that locked out until about -2F, then it's allowed to come on and supplement the HP. At about -12F the elements take over full time


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> Sure. But then after the AC ramps up to get things down to habitable levels, it will run periodically at low speed and bring your humidity down.


It DOESN'T get things down to habitable levels. It cools to *fast.* You need LONG running times to remove humidity.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> It DOESN'T get things down to habitable levels. It cools to *fast.* You need LONG running times to remove humidity.


I know. But cold and clammy still beats sweating balls.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> Shrug. Really, the whole system should monitor both humidity and temperature and control the speeds of both indoor and outdoor fans and the compressor.


You can only drop blower speeds so low before you start freezing up the evap.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Habeed said:


> I know. But cold and clammy still beats sweating balls.


Not in my book, especially when there is no need for it. All the equipment is there. It's a simple matter of proper control.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We get 60-70% RH and higher on our really hot days and the last few weeks have been pretty rainy and humid and this week is too.

My house can get to 55-60% RH or higher and when the AC starts it runs for a hour to drop 2 deg F. With that run time it sucks LOTS of moisture out and is in balance. If it was 2X the capacity I would end up with cool but still humid clammy air. The house would cool off in half a hour.

I have a clear hose on my drain and you can watch lots of water draining out. Cold and clammy is like when you walk into the Safeway store and go to the meat counter. Not a great feeling IMO.


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## sidejobjoe (May 30, 2014)

Bob Sanders said:


> but in the Winter (below 32F) my low stage is locked out. The machine is actually more efficient on full output in the Winter than on low stage. Granted it cycles more often as can be imagined but it also warms up faster on each cycle. We're also pretty low on humidity here in the Winter too so defrost cycles are that high either (except directly after a snow).
> 
> As for the resistive heat, I have that locked out until about -2F, then it's allowed to come on and supplement the HP. At about -12F the elements take over full time


Just curious about this... I had a heat pump at my old house and I rigged a switch to lockout the heat pump at around 20F because I read something about heat pumps start giving diminishing returns below 30F and the strips are actually more efficient. 

Is this an incorrect assumption? What is the lowest useful outdoor temp that a heat pump is cheaper to run than strips? (again, just out of curiosity, don't even own a heat pump anymore  ).


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

sidejobjoe said:


> Just curious about this... I had a heat pump at my old house and I rigged a switch to lockout the heat pump at around 20F because I read something about heat pumps start giving diminishing returns below 30F and the strips are actually more efficient.
> 
> Is this an incorrect assumption? What is the lowest useful outdoor temp that a heat pump is cheaper to run than strips? (again, just out of curiosity, don't even own a heat pump anymore  ).


It depends on the quality of the machine

Today's (quality) air to air heat pumps will deliver usable heat all the way down to about -25C (-13F) and some even a bit more and still be better than heat strips. It depends on your area and how much humidity is in the air (how much defrosting needs to be done). At some point your defrost cycles eat up what ever little savings there is at the lower temp.

But if you have a reasonably new machine then you're losing by locking out at 20F

My machine is still pumping out 15000 btu with a cop of 1.67 at -10F. Granted the cop is pretty low at that point but if the air is dry (and ours is) and defrost cycles are at a minimum then you're still ahead of the game.

Now I can't heat the entire house on 15000 btu so at this point I'm supplementing the HP with strips.... but it's still cheaper than running on pure resistive heat. Instead of running 3 heat strips at this point, I'm running one and the HP.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

The returns of heatpumps start to diminish at 47f, some say 50f.

That doesn't mean you should shut it off when it' still providing usable heat more economically than your second source of heat.

In fact it's a total waste to do that. Let the machine run until the air is too drafty or you feel it's really not supplying much heat at all. 

If the heatpump was sized for cooling in a heating climate it may start losing ground at 40f. u can plot heat output vs heat loss of any application and see where the balance point is.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

sidejobjoe said:


> Just curious about this... I had a heat pump at my old house and I rigged a switch to lockout the heat pump at around 20F because I read something about heat pumps start giving diminishing returns below 30F and the strips are actually more efficient.
> 
> Is this an incorrect assumption? What is the lowest useful outdoor temp that a heat pump is cheaper to run than strips? (again, just out of curiosity, don't even own a heat pump anymore  ).


From one DIY to another, when we built our home in 2007 it took some time for me to recognize the installer placed a thermostat on our single stage heat pump and locked it out--if memory serves--at 22f. Eventually (you don't want the entire story), I disabled it. Today, I know enough to know the short answer to your question is "it depends," but I don't know how to interpret my system's performance data and I'm not technical but here in Southern Ohio I heat exclusively with the heat pump down to the low teens. And now that I'm looking at my historical runtime data I may be running it exclusively into the higher single digits. Since 2013 I see supply temps of 91.8f at 5f outdoor to 93.7f at 10.9f outdoor (just skimming through partial pieces of data). This is based on an indoor set temp of 72, I believe (possibly some at 73) and these supply temps were taken approx 2' out of the plenum. 

Whether right or wrong, I usually disable my heat pump at outdoor temps below 5. In my uneducated mind, for my system, doing so makes the best use of energy cost (heating with electric strips). Fortunately, we've not had many such days in recent years.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

bfletcher7 said:


> From one DIY to another, when we built our home in 2007 it took some time for me to recognize the installer placed a thermostat on our single stage heat pump and locked it out--if memory serves--at 22f. Eventually (you don't want the entire story), I disabled it. Today, I know enough to know the short answer to your question is "it depends," but I don't know how to interpret my system's performance data and I'm not technical but here in Southern Ohio I heat exclusively with the heat pump down to the low teens. And now that I'm looking at my historical runtime data I may be running it exclusively into the higher single digits. Since 2013 I see supply temps of 91.8f at 5f outdoor to 93.7f at 10.9f outdoor (just skimming through partial pieces of data). This is based on an indoor set temp of 72, I believe (possibly some at 73) and these supply temps were taken approx 2' out of the plenum.
> 
> Whether right or wrong, I usually disable my heat pump at outdoor temps below 5. In my uneducated mind, for my system, doing so makes the best use of energy cost (heating with electric strips). Fortunately, we've not had many such days in recent years.



Should only be locked out if the COP drops to 1.3 or less.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

I have found someone locally to sell me the equipment and work with me on the warranty . I will take EPA 608 Universal certification test soon.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

rkpatt said:


> I have found someone locally to sell me the equipment and work with me on the warranty . I will take EPA 608 Universal certification test soon.


If you're working with R410a (and you should be) you don't need an epa card. You need an epa card for R22 and although R22 systems are still sold, the hammer is coming down on R22 so you shouldn't be buying one.


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## bamx2 (May 2, 2004)

I am aware of that. However, as a matter of policy, the people that are selling me the equipment require it. It would be good to have it anyway as we still have serveral R22 systems.



Bob Sanders said:


> If you're working with R410a (and you should be) you don't need an epa card. You need an epa card for R22 and although R22 systems are still sold, the hammer is coming down on R22 so you shouldn't be buying one.


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## ChasRoberts (Jul 8, 2016)

Chiming in late here, but there is a lot that can technically go wrong with a DIY installation. When in doubt, always trust it to a professional.


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

ChasRoberts said:


> Chiming in late here, but there is a lot that can technically go wrong with a DIY installation. When in doubt, always trust it to a professional.


As people have pointed out upthread, the actual equipment cost - for equipment a DIY can buy online - is about 30 to 40% of the cost you get charged if you pay a professional.

So every bit of A/C work, you are guaranteed to pay about 2.5 times as much money as DIY. In return, there is a somewhat smaller chance of things going wrong.

If you read the manufacturer's instructions, are reasonably competent with basic tools, and have a vague idea of what you are doing in theory even if you haven't practiced it for years, you can probably get your chance of failure down pretty low. Not as low as a professional - but if the chance of the DIY install failing is 10% and the pro's is 5%, you save a lot of money on average.

Money isn't everything, there's also the time. I ended up needing a solid week of work to do a small one myself. There's all these materials and tools you didn't realize you needed at the beginning, etc.


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## ChasRoberts (Jul 8, 2016)

You make very valid points and for the most part I completely agree with you. The problem is when people some people take it into their own hands, a minor error can quickly prove incredibly expensive. If money is important, sometimes taking a 'short cut' by doing it yourself can become costly. Just food for thought!


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## Habeed (Sep 1, 2015)

ChasRoberts said:


> You make very valid points and for the most part I completely agree with you. The problem is when people some people take it into their own hands, a minor error can quickly prove incredibly expensive. If money is important, sometimes taking a 'short cut' by doing it yourself can become costly. Just food for thought!


Such as? You did read those numbers I gave, right? Worst case scenario, the AC unit fails the first week and you have to replace the entire thing. Ridiculously unlikely, however - if all the refrigerant leaks, you can burn out the compressor sometimes, but the rest of the components are probably fine.

You could screw up the plumbing for the drain - but that's really hard to screw up and that would mean you also screwed up the wiring for the shutoff switch...

As long as you haven't flooded your house with leaked condensate, though, it's still cheaper to get a new AC and many of the sites that sell to DIYers offer warranties on the equipment...


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

Diy is not just about saving money. Each DIYer knows his/her feeling when we accomplishing a project.


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## Paul.le (Dec 12, 2011)

rkpatt said:


> I have found someone locally to sell me the equipment and work with me on the warranty . I will take EPA 608 Universal certification test soon.


 let us know how the EPA test goes


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