# Help with Dumb mistake - fan boxes too deep



## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

I finally hung my finished ceiling and to my chagrin I discovered that my ceiling fan boxes were mounted too deeply. Of course, I noticed this after I hung the drywall and plastered it. One of them is around 1/2 inch recessed from the finished ceiling, two of them are over 1 1/2 inches :huh:.

Grrrrr. Learned this one the hard way, I guess. I got a standard oct-box extension at BLowes but it is too big, or not big enough. Where's the 'kicking myself in the butt' smiley?

I'd love to hear some creative solutions - I want to schedule my final electrical inspection.


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## j. pierce (Jun 16, 2009)

How are the current boxes mounted? Do you have access from above? Seems like it could well be feasible to remove the current boxes, and mount old work boxes in their place, but how you do that would depend on the current situation.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

No, unless I tear down the drywall or tear off the roof.  No access to the boxes from above.


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## j. pierce (Jun 16, 2009)

Leah Frances said:


> No, unless I tear down the drywall or tear off the roof.  No access to the boxes from above.


Yeah, I guess my line of questioning was a bit stupid - wouldn't be much of a problem if you had access from above! 

So how are the original boxes held in place? Cross braces, or attached directly to the studs?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

They're cross braces that are screwed into adjacent studs.


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## j. pierce (Jun 16, 2009)

Ah - the screws into the studs makes things difficult, as opposed to one of those ones that works by pressure - otherwise I'd say you could hacksaw the bar in half, remove it, and replace it with on of the fan-rated old work boxes that can be mounted just through the whole in the ceiling. But I'd imagine the remnants of the old bar would foul the teeth of those things getting adequate pressure.

I'd be tempted, if it were me, to use a mini hacksaw to cut out the center of the bar, and then a long screwdriver to back out those screws, remove the last bits, and then mount an old work box. And a lot of cursing. 

I'm sure there's a better solution, though. 

I did something similar to this to remove the remnants of a bathroom fixture where I didn't have the best access above. No fun. Of course, only after I had finished it did it occur to me that it'd be a lot easier to work with the larger whole I needed to cut anyway for the vent that was going in there.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Drywall saw and tape and mud to patch the hole you cut so you can access the box bracing.


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Try some of these and some longer screws with spacers so your bracket will screw up tight. Your fan will still be mounted to your original box, this will just be a spacer so the "box" will be flush with the ceiling.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

wirenut1110 said:


> Try some of these and some longer screws with spacers so your bracket will screw up tight. Your fan will still be mounted to your original box, this will just be a spacer so the "box" will be flush with the ceiling.


Heck yeah. That's the way to do this. It is called a box extender or spark ring. No need to remove the box, just insert it. There are a number of manufacturers but one that comes to mind is Allied Molded. The box stores carry a couple varieties but you'd be better off at an electrical supply house to get a good selection and find one that fits your box. Longer screws and you've got it!


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## j. pierce (Jun 16, 2009)

This is handy to know about! (And why I should have kept my mouth shut to begin with) Sorry for the bad advice.

Out of curiosity, why must junction boxes be flush? I know they need to be, but I don't know why. (Other than code, which is good enough, but I'm curious about the reasoning)


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

j. pierce said:


> This is handy to know about! (And why I should have kept my mouth shut to begin with) Sorry for the bad advice.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why must junction boxes be flush? I know they need to be, but I don't know why. (Other than code, which is good enough, but I'm curious about the reasoning)


They don't need to be flush. Actually they should be recessed slightly so your device and cover end up flush. 
Now, you don't want boxes to far back either. This leaves an area around the box that will be open and would be subject to a fire hazard. If you bring the box to far forward the device and the covers will not lay flat on the wall or ceiling surface. Good craftsmanship is an NEC requirement. :thumbsup:

Leah. Don't lose any sleep over this. That ring shown above and all the other ideas coming will put you at ease. There are several ways to address this. Just be prepared to get some longer screws.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

Just hang the fan. 

Common occurrence. 

Boxes are always ending up recessed too far.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Just hang the fan.
> 
> Common occurrence.
> 
> Boxes are always ending up recessed too far.


Not necessarily good advice. There's a difference between "it'll work" and doing the job right. Sadly, a lot of tradesmen assume that since something happens all the time that it must be ok. Why not advocate for a 100% safe, compliant installation with either a box extender or a new box? 

NEC 314.20 clearly specifies that a box cannot be recessed more than 1/4" from the finish face of the wall or ceiling.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Just hang the fan.
> 
> Common occurrence.
> 
> Boxes are always ending up recessed too far.



Surely you have extenders on the truck......

How will the boxes that are 1 1/2" recessed ever pass her final inspection, or are you talking about uninspected work:yes:


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## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

Stubbie said:


> Surely you have extenders on the truck......
> 
> How will the boxes that are 1 1/2" recessed ever pass her final inspection, or are you talking about uninspected work:yes:


Because the fan will be up and i don't see any inspector takeing a fan down to check how far in the box is recessed:whistling2:

I do agree 1 1/2" is quite a space not to do something about it, but i am sure every electrician has left it as is at least once in there life time.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

darren said:


> Because the fan will be up and i don't see any inspector takeing a fan down to check how far in the box is recessed:whistling2:


I can promise you that on one of my final inspections at least 3 or 4 light fixtures are coming down, and the builder or electrician is the one doing it while I watch. I take a random sampling of boxes and check the work in the boxes...Depth, bonding, tying grounds. If the first two or three we check are good I put my faith in the electrician's apparent consistency and good work. If one is wrong we check a couple more...If they're wrong every fixture (including fans) in the house comes down. Personally, I think my little random sampling method is pretty fair! :yes:

I always say, the concealed work is only as good as the man doing it.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Too tired to read all responses tonight. But THANKS, as always to the folks in electric. The better be some good ideas in there..... You hear me.... fix my mistake....

Crap. I'm still not asleep.

Peace
LFW


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

darren said:


> Because the fan will be up and i don't see any inspector taking a fan down to check how far in the box is recessed:whistling2:
> 
> I do agree 1 1/2" is quite a space not to do something about it, but i am sure every electrician has left it as is at least once in there life time.



Unfortunately or fortunately in your case they do things different in Canada. A ceiling fan must have a fan rated box and I can assure you it wouldn't be wise to cover the fan box with the fan unless you like installing them twice. As kc termite explained some inspectors will randomly ask for a look see in a fan box. I can also assure you that an inspector will not allow that major of a recess from the finished surface final inspection or otherwise. You have any idea how bad you are going to look when the inspector sees you intentionally covered a violation???:whistling2: Not to mention how bad it was. We are talking an 1 1/2". 


Btw... mind giving me just a tad bit of credit I've been through a final inspection or two....and no I've never left a box I installed 1 1/2" recessed. I have installed extenders in old work though. 

You being an apprentice I'm amazed you seem to advocate that it will be fine to slop up your work once and a while with a poorly located fixture box and not mind the inspector calling you on it. Not a good idea when he comes calling on your next job....:no:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

thekctermite said:


> I can promise you that on one of my final inspections at least 3 or 4 light fixtures are coming down, and the builder or electrician is the one doing it while I watch. I take a random sampling of boxes and check the work in the boxes...Depth, bonding, tying grounds. If the first two or three we check are good I put my faith in the electrician's apparent consistency and good work. If one is wrong we check a couple more...If they're wrong every fixture (including fans) in the house comes down. Personally, I think my little random sampling method is pretty fair! :yes:
> 
> I always say, the concealed work is only as good as the man doing it.


I have never had an inspector to ask me to remove a fixture that was installed.
Who is going to get the bill for me having to remove and reinstall several light fixtures or fans?
I am surprised that you can get away with this action on a final inspection!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The inspector likely will see that type issue before final. My point is you don't cover a 1 1/2 inch recess from finish...that's just too freakin much....and I would hate to get called on something easily fixed. The extender is easy for Leah whether the inspector sees it or not. After all they do have a reason for that code requirement.

JBfan

It is vary rare to have a inspector ask to pull down a fan. He usually has a reason other than just wanting to see if you know how to do the wiring. What amazes me here is why do it when you can fix it easy...?? "Just hang the fan" what's that??


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Why would this problem not be caught on the rough inspection? I would think 1-1/2" would be easy to see without the ceiling up.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

jbfan said:


> I have never had an inspector to ask me to remove a fixture that was installed.
> Who is going to get the bill for me having to remove and reinstall several light fixtures or fans?
> I am surprised that you can get away with this action on a final inspection!


When would you suggest that the inspection of the fixture's attachment take place? None of the pertinent stuff is there at rough-in (the fixture, the hickey strap/mounting plate, etc). Sometimes the box isn't even there since they are often centered over vanities and such with cut-in boxes. Do you know how often I pull a bathroom wall sconce and don't even find a box??? Pretty darned often.

As for the bill, I don't give a hoot. It isn't the inspector's concern whether or not anyone makes or loses money, it is their concern (or it should be) to ensure that the structure's systems meet the minimum standard in the code. The job of the contractor is to provide access to the structure's systems for inspection, so bill him.

If your inspectors aren't checking an occasional fixture out then they're essentially ripping pages out of the code. As an inspector I've learned that I shouldn't put faith in anyone's ability or willingness to do things right, and that has been clearly illustrated by Darren earlier in the thread.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If I have any doubt I take pictures of everything
On rough Inspector wanted lag bolts in an interior ledger for 4' ceiling
He did not request an inspection before insulation
I installed them, insulation was the next inspection
He did remember the lag bolts, I offered to remove some insulation - ladder was already in place - or he could look at the pics I took
He trusted me since I was prepared to show him anything he wanted

I'd use a box extender if I had to, I'd never just leave it
But so far haven't had that problem


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

HouseHelper said:


> Drywall saw and tape and mud to patch the hole you cut so you can access the box bracing.


This is what I would do. Drywall is easy to fix. Even a 16" square cut-out could be repaired in no time. I am not an electrician, but it seems to me that a fan installed on a recessed box is a weak installation. Some fans are pretty darn heavy.:wink:


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

RustyRealtor said:


> This is what I would do. Drywall is easy to fix. Even a 16" square cut-out could be repaired in no time. I am not an electrician, but it seems to me that a fan installed on a recessed box is a weak installation. Some fans are pretty darn heavy.:wink:


The recessed nature of the box has absolutely *nothing* to do with the strength of the connection to the fan. Longer 8-32 screws may have to be used to attach to the two points on the box but the connection's strength is still the same.


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## RustyRealtor (Apr 13, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> The recessed nature of the box has absolutely *nothing* to do with the strength of the connection to the fan. Longer 8-32 screws may have to be used to attach to the two points on the box but the connection's strength is still the same.


 
Oh:huh:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I install a fan box
Then I run a 2x4 between the joists/rafters too
Box is then attached securely to the 2x as well
Makes foir a very secure installation

One fan I'm looking at has a 68" fan spread


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Leah, next time you install a box, use a scrap piece of sheetrock to gauge the depth of the box.

As for inspectors, if you are in an area where you know the inspectors are like that, you simply leave the fixtures hanging by the wires until the inspection. Leave the fan canopies down, etc. I worked in Homestead, Fl years ago, and the inspector there was like that. So instead of hanging a light and then taking it down, I'd leave a few dangling so he could see. A few switches and receptacles would be out as well.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

I KNEW there had to be an easy solution. Don't worry your pretty little heads. I haven't lost any sleep about...THIS... I'll have to check out some electrical supply places for the extender.

Three thoughts:
1. Yes, I could cut out the drywall and re-do it, but as a relatively novice DIYer I find it really useful to ask the question, "Is there and easier way?" Turns out the answer is 'yes' so glad I didn't get out my saw.

2. For me, the whole point of re-wiring this room was to eliminate a significant fire hazard. Not doing it to code defeats that goal. Gambling with the inspection defeats that goal. Three box extenders = good night sleep for the next 20 years.

3. The neat part about doing my own DIY is that I am learning a lot! Now I can add to the list of new things I know: consider the future ceiling level when you install boxes.

Thanks guys.:thumbsup:

Check out my latest project for the room: recreating the historic crown moulding: http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/how-use-router-make-crown-moulding-50916/


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I did my ceiling boxes depth for drywall
But I may be adding a wood T&G ceiling at some point
Knowing these box extenders are available is nice
Kinda figured they must have something like this


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## buddy builder (Jul 26, 2009)

i use 3/8" lavaratory supply line as a spacer. the grey plastic ones. as a plumber/electrician i have to use what's available. make a spacer with two of them and run long 8/32 screws through the mounting plate first, then through the spacers and there you have it. i usually cut them a little long and hone them down by dry fitting them. you want to be flush if you are mounting a fan. if your are recessed and you tighten the mounting plate up too tight the canopy will be hard to twist and turn to get on. i also leave the spacer about 1/4" too long and when i bear down to tighten it good it usually smoothes out flush. if you are worried about the screw being so long then by all means use thread lock for insurance or simply lock washers. thanks, bb


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I did my ceiling boxes depth for drywall
> But I may be adding a wood T&G ceiling at some point


They're perfect for that purpose and are commonly used in baseboard receptacles, paneling applications, beaded ceiling, cabinet-mounted boxes, etc. All places where wood can't be exposed to the inside of the box and the wiring make-up. :thumbsup:


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> NEC 314.20 clearly specifies that a box cannot be recessed more than 1/4" from the finish face of the wall or ceiling.


KC, thanks for the NEC 2003 reference.

pic source:http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/emplibrary/2003%20IRC%20Electrical%20Presentation%208-16-06%20draft.pdf (p20 of 37)
.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

NEC 2005 314.20
In Wall or Ceiling. In walls or ceilings with a
surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncombustible
material, boxes employing a flush-type cover or
faceplate shall be installed so that the *front edge of the box,
plaster ring, extension ring, or listed extender* will not be
set back of the finished surface more than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

J. V. said:


> * extension ring, or listed extender*


 Thanks J.V. for the full text. I wondered about Plaster Rings & Extenders when I found my condensed version source.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

PaliBob said:


> Thanks J.V. for the full text. I wondered about Plaster Rings & Extenders when I found my condensed version source.


 
That one reason why in the resdentail area there are two spot that I buy adjustable box which it mean it will adjust the depth of the box to correct wall or ceiling thickness.

The two spots which I run into more than once is Kitchen and Bathroom area that are two most common spot and that useally justify the extra cost of the adjustable boxes and yes they do come in one , two and three gang box size 

Here one brand I used they just came out not too long ago 

http://www.smartboxinc.com/Product.htm


I will find the other brand as soon I get the correct weblink here

Merci,Marc


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> http://www.smartboxinc.com/Product.htm
> 
> 
> I will find the other brand as soon I get the correct weblink here
> ...


 Marc, It is probably the Arlington *One-Box*
They came out in 2006 and come in five flavors: 1,2,3,4 Gang & a single gang horizontal box. They also have an extra large capacity. Great for DIY applications.
http://www.aifittings.com/new_prod_2005/whnew78-
redo.jpg

Too bad there is not an adjustable Fan Box.
.

These also appeared in a May,2009 Thread
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/problem-securing-outlet-box-finished-drywall-44715/


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

PaliBob.,

Let me update and found the link here as I am describing before 


http://www.carlon.com/Product_AdjustableZipBoxes.html


this item I am talking about so let you know ahead of the time { yeah they are adding few more new items along the way}

Merci,Marc

(sorry for delay due I have service call today ugh that was fun allright )


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Mark, Thanks for the Link to the new Carlon ZIP Box. 

That is the winner by being able to make the box depth adjustment with one screw after the Box is wired.
.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

PaliBob said:


> Thanks J.V. for the full text. I wondered about Plaster Rings & Extenders when I found my condensed version source.


My pleasure Bob. Your post got me curious. Thats a good thing. :yes: Thanks John


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

I missed the *1 1/2"* thing. I thought it was just _a bit_ too deep (1/4 inch past the allowable 1/4 inch)

The simple answer is relocate the box and make it flush.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

*Add-on Box Extender*

Sorry to keep dragging this thread out ad infinitum. 

Leah has found her solution but I'd like share a solution that may be practical in another application.

Raco makes this adjustable to 1" Extender for ~ 2$. It's available at most local Supply Houses.
or: http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/6290100


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

PaliBob said:


> Sorry to keep dragging this thread out ad infinitum.
> 
> Leah has found her solution but I'd like share a solution that may be practical in another application.
> 
> ...


Bob,
These are designed for receptacles and switches that are set to far back. We use them mainly behind wood cabinets. Kitchen cabinets to be more precise.

Normally receptacle boxes are installed well before the cabinets are installed. It's very difficult to extend a box out this far as you cannot support it. During the "trim out" we install these to meet the requirement. Since they are metal, I rarely use them anymore.


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