# replace old windows



## Rory Read (Feb 9, 2010)

*definite diy*

You can definitely take this on. Random thoughts:


 Don't start in your living room or dining room. The ideal trial run candidate is small, not prominent, not in a room that get's a lot of use, is on the ground floor, and exposed to the least amount of heavy weather.
 Start early on a dry day.
 Closely read the install guide and search Fine Home Building for how-to articles.
 Don't skimp. Buy all the materials that are called for, and buy all of the materials that you might possibly need before you start. Plan on a trip to return un-used materials. It's a lot easier than driving to the store 3 times during your project.
Curious: replacements or "new construction" windows?

Have fun with it.


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

you must have read my mind Rory. I was thinking of starting with a smaller bathroom window around the side of the house.:thumbsup:

tnx.


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Rory,
through some searching on the web,I just realized what you meant by "new construction" or "replacement windows". 
"replacement windows" appear to be the kind of windows where you keep the old frame and just pop in new sashes.
I want completely new everything (everything is removed and an entirely new window is installed) so "new construction" is the way to go,right?
anyone know anything about Simonton windows? my "assistant" wants vinyl.

tnx,


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Simonton is a fine choice. Better vinyl options: Great Lakes/Plygem, Sunrise, Gorell, Okna, Softlite. I don't want to direct you away from this site, but you will get a lot of opinions here from people who don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to windows(in addition to many that do, but it can sometimes be hard to discern). Just do a search for replacement window forums and you"ll find a wealth of info on both products and installation....At least that way you can cross-reference the info that you've picked up here.


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## Rory Read (Feb 9, 2010)

Analog,

I haven't used them, but there are a lot of brands out there. The vendor can play a big role too. A reliable, service oriented, building material supplier is a better bet than someone running a contest at the hardware store.

"New Construction" installations are more involved, but, if you have the time and money, they let you create a better system around the window. You also end up with bigger glass. However, they do involve more dis-assembly, and you are committing to doing more "right." Windows not installed "right" are not good.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Do the old windows have sash weights, or did older windows at some point ?

My biggest energy savings came from insulating the empty pockets on each side of the window
In many cases I put in a wider window to take up that space
Something to check before you measure & order windows
I did windows on my East side 1st...most wind, plus I was residing with wood shingles


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## brons2 (Jan 25, 2010)

Rory Read said:


> Don't skimp. Buy all the materials that are called for, and buy all of the materials that you might possibly need before you start. Plan on a trip to return un-used materials. It's a lot easier than driving to the store 3 times during your project.
> Curious: replacements or "new construction" windows?
> 
> Have fun with it.


What are all the materials required for installing new construction windows? I have the window, some protecto-wrap window flashing, caulk, screws and shims. Anything else?

Whoever built my house did not put trim around the windows, so I have to remove sections of the fiber-concrete-asbestos siding. A royal PITA as the pieces are very brittle. I do have non-asbestos containing replacements called GAF Weatherside, so at least I don't have to put the old ones back on if they are damaged.

The actual window replacement guys that I had over to look said they would saw through it. No thanks, that would create a lot of airborne asbestos! (Friable asbestos, as the experts say)


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Do the old windows have sash weights, or did older windows at some point ?
> 
> My biggest energy savings came from insulating the empty pockets on each side of the window
> In many cases I put in a wider window to take up that space
> ...


nah...sash weights is REAL old stuff! my windows are just your plain old windows with springs in 'em. (new ones have springs,right?)
I'm going to start with a smaller window in the back of the house on ground level then if all works out well,I'll do the rest on ground level then have a contractor do the higher ones. the house has 15 or so windows so I won't run out of stuff to do anytime soon. (or pay for )

tnx,


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I'd thoroughly understand the flashing and sealing exterior detail before I pulled out any windows. Failure to do this will cause water to infiltrate the space and cause damage to walls and floors next to and below the window. I've seen damage from a second floor unit reach all the way to the sill plate with little showing into the interior, warning the owners.
You should also realize that the new construction window will require you to rip out the interior millwork and depending on your exterior, siding or exterior trim.
Before you order any windows, be sure you know the rough opening of the space you'll put the window into. This will require you to remove the casing to see where the framing is located.
Windows are not a difficult job, but it requires a complete understanding of all the issues involved to be successful.
Ron


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

The reason I mention it my "old" replacement windows had springs
But when they installed them they did not remove the sash weights from the original windows
So even tho my house had windows installed 15-20 years ago the sash weights & un-insulated pockets still existed from years ago


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> I'd thoroughly understand the flashing and sealing exterior detail before I pulled out any windows. Failure to do this will cause water to infiltrate the space and cause damage to walls and floors next to and below the window. I've seen damage from a second floor unit reach all the way to the sill plate with little showing into the interior, warning the owners.
> You should also realize that the new construction window will require you to rip out the interior millwork and depending on your exterior, siding or exterior trim.
> Before you order any windows, be sure you know the rough opening of the space you'll put the window into. This will require you to remove the casing to see where the framing is located.
> Windows are not a difficult job, but it requires a complete understanding of all the issues involved to be successful.
> Ron


 Very well said.


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## Rory Read (Feb 9, 2010)

brons2,

Just to answer your question, as it sounds like you are on your way:


 You may need some new dimensional lumber if any of the framing has gone, and I often (as noted by the other respondents) need to install new exterior and interior trim, and all the associated fasteners, primer and paint.
Insulation, batt or spray foam.
I had a bad day with protecto-wrap. Maybe it was the weather, but I prefer either Vycorp or Fortiflash in wider roles. So maybe a can on spray adhesive for the wrap. As with self adhering flashing, there is a range of quality in caulks and fasteners. High quality exterior caulk/sealants truly outperform cheaper ones.
I am huge fan of pre formed rigid plastic or metal sill pans. I know many pros scoff, but I think they are easier to install and so more reliable.
Make sure your drip edge fits your window trim.
Window one may be annoying. Window two will be much smoother. By window three you will be doing production work.
Good luck,


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

HomeSealed said:


> Simonton is a fine choice. Better vinyl options: Great Lakes/Plygem, Sunrise, Gorell, Okna, Softlite. I don't want to direct you away from this site, but you will get a lot of opinions here from people who don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to windows(in addition to many that do, but it can sometimes be hard to discern). Just do a search for replacement window forums and you"ll find a wealth of info on both products and installation....At least that way you can cross-reference the info that you've picked up here.


 
well said also:thumbsup:


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## brons2 (Jan 25, 2010)

Rory Read said:


> brons2,
> 
> Just to answer your question, as it sounds like you are on your way:
> 
> ...


Hum. Windows are but one part of the overall project. These aren't being installed into a house that is otherwise undisturbed. Maybe that's why there's a few things I don't understand.

1. there was no exterior trim at all, believe it or not, the fiber concrete asbestos siding butts right up to the windows. I plan on rectifying that situation as part of the window install. And the inside of the house is gutted so all the trim pieces are long gone, I will of course put some new trim pieces on when the time comes for finish work.

2. what's the insulation for? I already removed all the insulation from the gutted part of the house. Insulation, that comes in later after plumbing and electric. I do understand the need for caulk, and non-expanding spray foam to fill in the gaps between the sill and the window itself once the fin is nailed down.

3. OK, thanks. There is a primer spray for protecto-wrap so I will try that. I for sure won't be doing this on a rainy day though, as I'm sure you have many in Portland, as I am originally from Corvallis.

4. Sill pans? That seems a bit over the top assuming the flashing is done correctly. The windows are new construction types with nail fins, not replacement types, so to me they look to have sort of an integrated sill pan. However, I can see why you'd think they offer an additional layer of protection in a wet climate like you live in up there. It certainly can't hurt as extra insurance at any rate. If i were to procure such an item, where would I get it at? McCoy's? And any brands that you recommend? A Google search brought up lots of hits. Suresill and Jamsill seem to pop up a lot.

5. Drip edge? I know what you are talking about, but, I rarely see houses around here installed with it. Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention? If I am to install it, I stick it to the sheathing and then install the trim over it? Or install it on top of the trim and underneath the siding, making it slightly wider than the trim? (this looks like the more likely solution from looking at pictures of it, looks like L shaped metal with the side pointing out then folded down).

6. I hope you are right! Cause I'm fixin to find out!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

One example of window flashing & how to install
The stuff I used was 6" wide instead of only 4"
Tyvek on the house since I am residing the whole house
I am installing drip edge over the windows - above the trim
This hopefully keeps water from getting behind the trim
I also prime all sides of the trim & usually do the same with paint
I only use one sill plate flashing
I also haven't had to use the corner flashing since my flashing goes well beyond each corner


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## brons2 (Jan 25, 2010)

Nice exploded view, thanks.

I have 15lb tar paper on top of the sheathing, it is required beneath the fiber-cement siding. My current 45 yr old window does not show any evidence of water damage, and the only flashing it has is the tar paper right up to the edge.

I also have a roll of the Protecto Wrap BT25XL as depicted in your post. The way they propose putting in the window is, put a strip of the Protecto Wrap on the bottom of the rough sill first, then install the window and tack down, then install the rest of the Protecto Wrap around the window. Of course since I have the tar paper, it makes me wonder if I should tack the tar paper right up to the edge and then put the sheathing on top of it, or trim back the tar paper for the flashing to adhere directly to the sheathing.

Here's a question: once you have the window in and you're installing the trim, should you avoid additional nails through the window nail fin? That seems like it might give a path in for water.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

alot of these install methods are really dependent on how exposed the windows actually are,if you have deep overhangs you could probably just flash the rough sill,install the window,repair or replace any felt shingle style over the nailing flanges then trim your window


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I THINK brons2 IS IN THE WRONG THREAD!

tnx,


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## brons2 (Jan 25, 2010)

You asked in the original post whether you could install windows yourself or leave it to a pro, well, you should be getting a good idea by now just by reading the responses to my posts.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brons2 said:


> You asked in the original post whether you could install windows yourself or leave it to a pro, well, you should be getting a good idea by now just by reading the responses to my posts.


That's not the way it works. What you did was, "hijack " the post. It's considered inappropriate. What you should have done, was start your own post about your situation. It confuses the issue as to whose post is being addressed when you do this.
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

it's all the same info that's been posted here a thousand times neither of the posters seem to know what the search button is for

i bet the next questin is...i have ice forming at the end of my roof....


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I will indeed start with a window around the back of the house but I thought I'd post some pix of the windows in the dining room which are next. as you can see, there's brick all around. I'm fearful of the answer to this question but here goes: exactly how do you get the old windows out assuming there's "nailing flanges" on the sides of those window frames? looks to me like new construction windows are installed before the siding goes on (in this case,brick) so the flanges are covered up. does the brick have to be removed?

tnx,


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i would pull the sashes.remove the trim in the center,pull any nails you can find,then collapse the frame,starting at the center of each window where you removed the trim with a flatbar,your gonna have to muscle it alittle but it will go


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> i would pull the sashes.remove the trim in the center,pull any nails you can find,then collapse the frame,starting at the center of each window where you removed the trim with a flatbar,your gonna have to muscle it alittle but it will go


 
but of course then there's the problem of installing the new window which will have "nailing fins" too.

tnx,


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> it's all the same info that's been posted here a thousand times neither of the posters seem to know what the search button is for
> 
> i bet the next questin is...i have ice forming at the end of my roof....


so Tom,what SHOULD I do about that durned ice? :whistling2:

tnx.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

:laughing:i don't know

is the whole house brick or just the area under the porch?if its just the porch area you can probably ''shoehorn'' the double units in, might have to trim the flanges down a little,make sure you get the top flange under any paper that hopefully is there,get a ''brick clip'' from the window manufacturer as you won't be abe to nail thru the flanges here


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> :laughing:i don't know
> 
> is the whole house brick or just the area under the porch?if its just the porch area you can probably ''shoehorn'' the double units in, might have to trim the flanges down a little,make sure you get the top flange under any paper that hopefully is there,get a ''brick clip'' from the window manufacturer as you won't be abe to nail thru the flanges here


well, Tom, the entire front of the house is brick and the other 3 sides regular siding. is there a different construction technique used for a house built entirely of brick as opposed to one like mine where only a portion is brick?

tnx,


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

well im assuming your house is wood frame with brick veneer so no as far as different constuction teqniques,your still installing the window flanges to the sheathing of the house,the main thing is integrating the window flanges into the existing felt underlayment properly,If the windows in the brick area are well protected by overhangs as long as you flash the sill first and get the window flange under the paper at the top you could pretty much just remove the side flanges and use a brick clip to secure the windows and use spray foam to seal the sides,install any outside trim and caulk it to the window and brick you should be ok

for the more exposed windows in the siding areas,removing the siding from around the windows so you can better flash the window usually yields better results


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

well,Tom, when I think of brick "veneer",I think of something that looks like brick but isn't really. my house is constructed (the front anyway) with actual bricks and mortar.
I've been reading plenty of forums and blogs and I still don't have a good idea about how the windows are going to come out. if you look at the pix I posted,you'll see that only two sides of each window are up against the brick,with the remaining two sides against siding. should I remove that siding first? ok,there's two sides of each window's nailing fins exposed,shouldn't be hard to remove the nails. now,we have the other 2 sides of each window,which is up against brick. should I use a recip. saw to cut the unseen nails as was suggested in one forum? 
maybe I'm making too much of this. maybe everything will just work out.

tnx,


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

your home is wood frame, it's still veneer,just its full brick veneer

the sawsall to cut the nails can cause damage to the underlayment so i would only use that as a last resort

I would take the glass out of the window and starting at the middle of the frame i would collapse the frame in on itself using a flat or wrecking bar
the aluminum flange will usually rip through where the nails are but will leave the paper mostly intact


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> your home is wood frame, it's still veneer,just its full brick veneer
> 
> the sawsall to cut the nails can cause damage to the underlayment so i would only use that as a last resort
> 
> ...


good point about the sawzall damaging the paper, hadn't considered that. I was kinda concerned about the hidden nails but I guess they WILL rip through with some muscle. (hadn't heard of any steel frame windows,now I think I know why, they would be absolutely impossible to remove from behind brick without a "front-loader" doing the pulling :laughing I got the idea about the sawzall from another site. haven't found any other sites besides this one to give good,practical advice.

tnx,


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

What material are the window frames made from?
The term, brick veneer, is a term used for a single layer of brick attached to a stud framed wall with a sheathed surface.
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

analogmusicman said:


> good point about the sawzall damaging the paper, hadn't considered that. I was kinda concerned about the hidden nails but I guess they WILL rip through with some muscle. (hadn't heard of any steel frame windows,now I think I know why, they would be absolutely impossible to remove from behind brick without a "front-loader" doing the pulling :laughing I got the idea about the sawzall from another site. haven't found any other sites besides this one to give good,practical advice.
> 
> tnx,


no its done the same way with steel,if you want you and can get one side of the frame cut,bend it in towards the center,pull down the headthen pull the other side out starting at the top

sounds complicated but you will figure it out

there are a couple of different metal frame removal tools out there but iv'e never used one


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> What material are the window frames made from?
> The term, brick veneer, is a term used for a single layer of brick attached to a stud framed wall with a sheathed surface.
> Ron


the window frames are aluminum.
I must have "brick veneer"

tnx,


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> no its done the same way with steel,if you want you and can get one side of the frame cut,bend it in towards the center,pull down the headthen pull the other side out starting at the top
> 
> sounds complicated but you will figure it out
> 
> there are a couple of different metal frame removal tools out there but iv'e never used one


hmmm...you got me thinking (always dangerous ) so I did some searching and darned if there isn't a tool called the "x-tractor" that does just what I need,the video shows it to be easy to use too! anyone used it? how much does it cost? amazing,this forum never lets me down. :thumbsup:

tnx,


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

analogmusicman said:


> the window frames are aluminum.
> I must have "brick veneer"
> 
> tnx,


Considering the frames are aluminum and your understanding of new construction window replacement, you should get replacement windows.
You would save yourself grief from so many pitfalls.
Saying that, you should call in someone who does this work, just to see if the currnt windows can easily be converted. Some of these have oversized flanges that would preclude their use.
Better to understand all the options and the issues with each. 
Ron


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

these are new construction windows metal windows,not a conventional wood window that insert windows are designed for,there is no real ''widow frame'' more like an r.o measurement

plus you want to get rid of any metal that could act as a thermal conductor,now its possible he can frame the windows smaller for easier installation but he may have a code problem

in this instance a new construction window is the best way
whether the op should tackle it or not i don't know...he seems like he has picked up a hammer before


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## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> these are new construction windows metal windows,not a conventional wood window that insert windows are designed for,there is no real ''widow frame'' more like an r.o measurement
> 
> plus you want to get rid of any metal that could act as a thermal conductor,now its possible he can frame the windows smaller for easier installation but he may have a code problem
> 
> ...


yeah, to say the least I've "picked up a hammer before" (most of the family are carpenters)
just never replaced a window before. plenty of good info here!

tnx,


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