# Solar systems



## Speedy Petey

miketrupower said:


> is anybody installing any solar power? do you think it's worth the money?


Why not start a new thread with this? It is completely unrelated to the original post.


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## Termite

I moved your post from the thread it was hijacking and started you a new thread here in the appropriate forum. :thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave

This may depend upon how long you are staying in the house
It is much easier to REDUCE power usage then to produce power
Depending upon your area its also mush easier to produce solar heat then solar electric power
I built a 7x10 greenhouse 6' tall & it wa sheating up to 110 on a suung 55 degree day. Making a smaller enclosure I can heat water for house use, Sunny winter days possibly enough to provide some heat for the house

Payoff on voltaic system can be 10+ years depending upon state & local incentives


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## Yoyizit

miketrupower said:


> do you think it's worth the money?


First, check your insolation
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-insolation-window.html


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## Scuba_Dave

mboxwell said:


> Quite frankly, the environmental benefits of building solar into a grid-connected home is questionable as well, as you're generating electricity at a time when the grid has more than enough electricity available.


Say WHAT??
Peak usage occurs during the middle of the day
Not the middle of the night
If enough solar/wind systems are installed then we won't need more coal & nuclear power plants

Ever hear of CA brown outs?


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## Clutchcargo

I love the idea of solar and wind but there's still too much oil left in the world for alternative energy to become main stream.
Once the world starts running out of oil and prices start to escalate based on real diminishing supply (as opposed to Opec constraints), then alternative energy will become more of a reality. Most people are self-declared green only when it's more expensive to be otherwise.
For me, it doesn’t make financial sense. If I installed PV panels, it would be for the next home owner because the ROI is 10-12 years. As ScubaDave said, it’s easier and cheaper to reduce consumption.
Now, if we can just figure out how to control the weather. My building schedule is shot this year because of all the crap weather we've been getting.


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## Scuba_Dave

Yeah, I'm still trying to get my roof on 
Should be good Fri-Sun
So I am hoping to have 20' completed out of 30'
We do plan on buying a solar PV system as we do not plan on moving
But 1st I am doing the far less expensive fixes
Solar hot water & heating will come 1st


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## Scuba_Dave

Actually it seems to vary across the US
Depending upon the time of year & if you are in heating or AC area
Summer is the biggest with AC use
Many areas receive warnings not to use the AC or to turn the Temp up on the AC so it will not work as hard
Highest use seems to be between 1p-7p (usually starting at 2-3p)
All homes are going + business still open
My pool pump runs during the day + solar water heater for pool
Some utitilies have computer generated data which will tell you peak times of use for your house
My utility does not

In the summer we have daylight pretty much until 7-8p most of the time
I'm pretty sure its the very low point of PV output at that time

I could supply most of my power by solar & wind
As could the vast majority of people
Are you saying other factors besides power stations contribute more CO2?
I think reducing power draw by 50-75% would have a huge effect on current plants
And eleiminate the need for more plants
Costa Rica has 80%+ of their power from wind


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## Yoyizit

mboxwell said:


> an awful program on the telly called Eastenders


The entire repetitive theme is on YouTube, but the whistling at the end is pretty good.

Sunlight puts 1 kw per square meter on the earth, so this should be plenty enough energy.


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## CNM Design

This will be the way to go, long before solar. If you can get one to run on NG.
http://www.disenco.com/html/overview-2217.htm


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## Yoyizit

mboxwell said:


> When solar panels are available for less than $1 a watt (and trade price is not far from that already for some amorphous panels) we're going to see a huge takeup of solar for these sorts of applications.


If the avg. US elec bill/yr = $1000 give or take and the avg. US elec used/yr = 8000 kwh give or take this thing pays for itself in one year. 
Where do we all sign up?
One problem may be that the peak usage = 20x to 50x the average, for a single house.


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## Scuba_Dave

mboxwell said:


> My personal belief is that the future of solar is not for powering big homes in California or the like - I suspect that this will never be a cost effective solution at _*any*_ time in the future


Yes, there is an unlimited supply of coal, wood & oil in/on the Earth :whistling2:

Once the Earth is sucked dry of resources there really won't be an alternative
The problem will be if the resources are sucked dry before enough solar, wind, water & tidal power are out in place


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## Mr Chips

mboxwell said:


> Let's assume you have a shed at the bottom of the garden and you'd like to fit a security alarm and some lighting. The cost of running a power cable down the garden is likely to cost you $100 by the time you've included circuit breakers, fittings and so on. A solar electric system is likely to cost you a similar amount, and of course you're keeping away from high voltage electricity, which makes it simpler and easier to install.


i am doing this exact thing, and I think you have GREATLY under-estimated the cost of running AC electric to a shed. For my application, as in your example, going solar will show an immediate return on investment. The downside is I won't be able to run an aircompressor, or a beer fridge out there, but I will have lights inside and out, and i'll be able to keep a charger for my cordless tools out there as well. i have a charger that plugs into a 12vdc cig lighter, and am going to use 12v LED lighting, so i don't even need an inverter


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## Scuba_Dave

A breaker is $6, a roll of 250' 12-2 is $50, 12-3 for 2 circuits might be $75
Boxes are .30 each, outlets $2 each
So you could run (2) 20a circuits for under $100
Burying it will cost maybe another $20 depending upon distance

I have a small dorm fridge out by the pool that runs in the summer
An older 18 cu ft fridge is turned on for parties
Plus multiple fans + lights
The problem with solar is storage for night-time use
With grid tie its not a problem, but only having solar in a shed really limits your use


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## Scuba_Dave

mboxwell said:


> Not really... you store the power in a battery and use it when you need it. That way your battery can charge up during the day and you can use the power whenever you want it.
> 
> It also means that you can have a smaller panel than you'd need for instant power without a battery, because the solar panel would be trickle charging the batteries every day.


And how big of a battery array would be needed to power a fridge?


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## Yoyizit

Scuba_Dave said:


> And how big of a battery array would be needed to power a fridge?


http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/Download folder/Power-table.pdf


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## Mr Chips

Scuba_Dave said:


> And how big of a battery array would be needed to power a fridge?


 
I was looking at this beast before. PowerHub 1800. You can hook it up to your grid, and/or solar panels AND/OR wind, kinda like a UPS system. Looks pretty pricey, but i did see one on closeout locally for $350 (that doesn't include batteries). 

The manual said you can run upto 1800 w of power, which should be enough for a fridge plus lights, with 1 or 2 100ah batteries.

It got a single review on Northern (or maybe Amazon) that wasn't too flattering, but i couldn't find any other info about it anywhere. Looks interesting though...


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## mboxwell

Hell! That's a big price for an inverter 

And that is just the inverter. It doesn't include solar panels, batteries, charge controllers or anything else. You'd end up spending $4,000 plus on a basic system just to power a fridge 

If all you wanted was a solar powered fridge and some lighting, you'd be better off getting a 70 watt solar panel, a charge controller, 140 amphours of traction batteries, some high output 12v lighting and a Steca Solar Fridge (they run on 12v or 24v, so you don't need the inverter).

Shop around to get the right price and its job done for around $1,500. Still want to spend $900 on just an inverter?


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## Scuba_Dave

So I'm spending $1500 to buy & power a 12v fridge?
Makes running electric a whole lot cheaper :laughing:


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## Mr Chips

no, this would not be used in the shed! the fridge conversation made me think of it

i was thinking that because it is an inverter and transfer switch, it would be an option for using in the house. the only reason i was even considering this was the local sale price of $350

sorry for confusion


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## shawnlee

I am planning a full set up ,one reason is I have money today,might not have money 3 to 5 years from now or a job.......I am looking into reducing my monthly bills to as close to 0 as possible.

With the 30 percent tax break the pay off is under 10 years now in most areas....especially california where if you use over a certain amount of electricity the rate almost doubles.

What happens in storms.....the power goes out,what happens during a brown out......what happens during a natural of man made disaster.....what happens when they decide to charge you double what you are paying now for electricity.What happens when you loose your job and have only enuff money to eat.....what happens when you retire and have very little income or completely loose your retirement like seems to be happening to alot of people.What happens if you get sick and cant work or have hundreds or thousands in hospital bills to pay or you get crippled at work or on the way to church.........

There is alot more to solar and wind power than just trying to save money and get a free ride or even cleaning up the planet.

I plan on retiring early,very early,i already have over 5 acres paid in full and now one of the last money suckers to get rid of is the monthly utilities.
No rent or house payment and no utilities to pay,my own well water and growin/raising alot of my own food.....how much a month would you have left in your pocket if you could eleminate those bills and how much a month would it cost to live then...........very little:thumbup:

A solor or wind system might take 10 or 15 years to break even on ,but in 10 or 15 years you will still be paying bills ,I am going to put the cash out now while i have it and will not be paying bills for that 10 or 15 years and then when it is to break even stage its a free ride..possibly a money generating deal then selling power to the utilities.

Everything is a trade off I just like the benifits of making my own power.....money and space may limit some as to thier options...it just happens to be a good option for me currently.


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## Yoyizit

shawnlee said:


> I have money today,might not have money 3 to 5 years from now or a job
> 
> reducing my monthly bills to as close to 0 as possible.
> 
> what happens when they decide to charge you double what you are paying now for electricity.
> What happens when you loose your job and have only enuff money to eat.....
> what happens when you retire and have very little income or completely loose your retirement like seems to be happening to alot of people.
> What happens if you get sick and cant work or have hundreds or thousands in hospital bills to pay or you get crippled at work or on the way to church.........
> 
> the last money suckers to get rid of is the monthly utilities.
> 
> No rent or house payment and no utilities to pay,my own well water and growin/raising alot of my own food.....how much a month would you have left in your pocket if you could eleminate those bills and how much a month would it cost to live then...........very little:thumbup:
> 
> A solor or wind system might take 10 or 15 years to break even on ,but in 10 or 15 years you will still be paying bills ,I am going to put the cash out now while i have it and will not be paying bills for that 10 or 15 years and then when it is to break even stage its a free ride..possibly a money generating deal then selling power to the utilities.
> 
> Everything is a trade off


In that case you need to know the formula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_value
and the idea of 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Estimating the likelihoods of those bad things happening wouldn't hurt, either. . .

Causes of death in the US (330,000,000 people)

1000/day from smoking
250/day from hospitals
160/day from guns
110/day die on the highways
14/day from food poisoning
4/day from electrocutions

170/yr from CO poisoning
55/yr from lightning

1 injury in 50 yrs from a meterorite


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## atopi

Iam new to this site and need some basic solar panel help is there anyone willing to help with a newbee


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## Mr Chips

atopi said:


> Iam new to this site and need some basic solar panel help is there anyone willing to help with a newbee


perhaps you should tell us what your problem is first!!

My guess is you will get more help than you bargined for.


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## atopi

OK as i have said Iam new to this solar thing and try to get a grasp of what is going on. So with that said.I have got two Telefunk panels that in full sun I get 19.48 DCV these are small panels 2foot X 10 inches how do I figure the watts? Next I got a pro sine 1000 inverter and a 15amp charge controller feeding three 120ah deep cycle batterys.Now when I hook the panels in series the DCV stay the same but does that speed up the charging time?Or should I be hooking parell? Oh I might say this is a 12 volt system (batterys all hooked pos to pos and neg to neg) At this point all I want is to run back up lights (15 watt florsent)x7 at most when the lights go out and to keep the batterys toped off.Is this all going to work out? Thanks Alan


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## Mr Chips

atopi said:


> I have got two Telefunk panels that in full sun I get 19.48 DCV these are small panels 2foot X 10 inches how do I figure the watts?


Watts = Volts x Amps. Based on nothing but the size, I would guess these are 10-20 watt panels. Is there a model number printed on it anywhere?



atopi said:


> Now when I hook the panels in series the DCV stay the same but does that speed up the charging time?Or should I be hooking parell?


if you hook them in series you will get higher voltage, so it sounds like you want to hook them in *Parallel *so you get more current ( 12vdc batteries charge faster) and not double your voltage and risk damaging your 12v batteries


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## atopi

no there is no modle number on these panels.All that I know for sure is that they are stainless steal and came from a sail boat they have a red and blue wire of the back and that is all that I know for sure I have tryed to resherch these and cant find anything about them.

Now to hook these up right you are saying I need to go from -to + at the panel and then to the charge controller +to+ and -to-?

I want to thank you for your help. Alan


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## atopi

Oh I have done a dry run and when I hook the panels together eather way the DCV on my meter stays the same.So I checked each panel and they are both giving a good reading.Now Iam lost for sure


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## Yoyizit

atopi said:


> how do I figure the watts?


For max. power transfer the internal resistance of the panel must equal the load resistance.

Look at
_Equivalent circuit of a solar cel_l

in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell

The internal resistance of this circuit changes with several different things so I'd look to see whether anyone makes an inverter that maximizes power draw from solar panels.


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## atopi

What? As I said Iam a newbie and this site is way over my head.I dont want to get discuraged but for something that is supost to be simple.Iam lost as ever now.I guess Iam going to have to throw this stuff out and find another hobbie.
But I do want to thank you all for your help. Alan


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## Marget

*used solar panels a good idea?*

:yes:Anyo ne gotan idea about where to purchase used solar panels? How good are used solar panels? any help would be appreciated. how bad are used panels? do they get bad over time?


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## Yoyizit

Marget said:


> :yes:Anyo ne gotan idea about where to purchase used solar panels? How good are used solar panels? any help would be appreciated. how bad are used panels? do they get bad over time?


http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q="solar+panel+lifetime"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## Mr Chips

Marget said:


> :yes:Anyo ne gotan idea about where to purchase used solar panels? How good are used solar panels? any help would be appreciated. how bad are used panels? do they get bad over time?


 
i see them on ebay all the time. i remember reading that 10 years is the expected life expectancy, and i think most manufactures list the mfg date, so i would take that age account when considering a used panel


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## Mr Chips

atopi said:


> What? As I said Iam a newbie and this site is way over my head.I dont want to get discuraged but for something that is supost to be simple.Iam lost as ever now.I guess Iam going to have to throw this stuff out and find another hobbie.
> But I do want to thank you all for your help. Alan


What I don't understand is, if you already have the stuff, why not simply experiment with it and try to figure out if it will work? if you have a couple panels, it doesn't make any difference what the wattage is if they will keep you battery charged in a way that will meet your output requirements. I realize you are a newbie, but I must be missing something


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## atopi

Mr. Chips
I have started playing around with it.I have dischared my batterys and fiugred out that I need a blocking dioed witch is coming in the mail.I think I got it to charge but we have had rain down here in sunny florida. I got the charge controller to work and hooked the panels in series as well as three batterys. I have recharged the battery bank( with ac charger) I think I might have a week battery because I lose charge when nothing is running but it is a small drop 12.74 DCA to 12.53 DCA and Iam kind of lost as to why my inverter shuts down at 12.01 DCA I understand the interverter is saving my batterys but as I said there is three big deep cell Batterys in my bank. I think once I get that blocking dioed in place that everything will hold a charge and hold but at what DCA schould the batterys mantian at? I see some say 13.50 DCA is full. Back to the week battery have you heard of using epson salt and distilled water to recon a battery if so what is you input on that? Will let you know what happens after the blocking dioed is in place.

PS the charge controller is a 15 amp that has a panel off light and a load on light sold on Ebay seem to be a good controller for what Iam doing.


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## Mr Chips

atopi said:


> Mr. Chips
> I got the charge controller to work and hooked the panels in series as well as three batterys.


One of us is confusing a series circuit with a parrelel circuit. As I understand it, if you are hooking up THREE 12v batteries in SERIES, you have the equivelant of a 36volt battery, 

if you hook THREE 12v batteries in parrelel, you have the equivelant of a 12v battery, with 3x the storage capacity.

How EXACTLY do you have your panels and batteries wired up?

If you are using a 15 watt charger, you should be fine with your two small panels. I don't have any reference in front of me, but off the top of my head a believe a 15 watt charger can handle something like 300 watts worth of panels.


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## atopi

Mr Chips
My batterys are hooked + to + to+ and -to - to- my solar panels are hooked + to + and - to - and then to thae batterys + to+ and -to-.
Now I know that hooking + to - will make 24volts just like in my motor graders and tump trucks ect. But will the same thing happen if I hook the two small panels this way will it increase the out put DCV ?


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## Yoyizit

4'x5'? 200W output at noon?


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