# Encapsulating old asbestos vinyl tile



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Familypro40 said:


> Any comments on my idea please ?
> Concrete slab - 40 year old 9x9 asbestos vinyl tile on top of slab. Slight odor comming from hydrostatic pressure wicking up some moisture and moistening the old adheasive (cut back)? I want to put down padding and carpet (grade level family room). Can I put another layer of tile over this old tile to encapsulate it ( stick on 12x12 or even sheet vinyl?). Or is dry-lock /sealer or epoxy coating a better idea? Or..just paading and carpeting over the 9x9 tile?
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Why not just remove the old tiles? It's not a big deal.
Jamie


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## Familypro40 (Nov 13, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> Why not just remove the old tiles? It's not a big deal.
> Jamie


Jamie,
after reading all the warnings on this site I am a bit afraid to as the room is 240 sq.ft. I would like to be rid of it though. Any new thoughts on removal of the old tile and adhesive?

Thanks.

Paul


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

Jamie
It might be wise to stop suggesting people remove asbestos laden tile man.
And certainly a slab issue that is reactivating the cut back.
There are still lawsuits pending on asbestos issues.


I would have it professionally abated or just overlay/escapulate it with ditra.


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## designstate (Nov 13, 2008)

Have it removed professionally. I had someone do my whole slab house when I bought it. My house was about 1000 square feet and the whole removal cost about 1500.00 While not cheap it is cheaper than the fine you can get for dumping asbestos illegally. That fine can be over 10K. Plus if the tiles break than that means you are breathing asbestos dust. Not too healthy. Just get rid of them. I feel so much better knowing that there is no asbestos under foot.


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

Design.
This is nofriable asbestoes so the only way to reactivate the it is to sand it or bust it up into little tiny peices then breathe the dust in.
It is the lowest form of asbestos ever introduced into the market.

But
It is till to our best interest not to advise that any home owners do it them selves.


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## designstate (Nov 13, 2008)

Very true about it being the safest form of asbestos. In my house when I bought it I ripped up the carpet and almost every tile was cracked to heck. Also, as they age they become brittle. So if he wanted to remove them than they will probably break. That would be when the asbestos becomes airborne. Sure not as much as if he were to grind, cut, or saw it but it still becomes airborne. Also, you can't just remove it yourself. It is very illegal to do so unless you are a professional. This is what I found out when I had to take care of my floors.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

FamilyPro40:

What condition is the floor in. You say there is moisture coming up through the concrete basement floor. Normally, one would expect that this would cause the floor tiles to pop loose because of the water pressure or water vapour pressure pushing up on the tiles.

If the tiles are in good shape, then I'm questioning the source of the odor you claim is in the basement. Maybe that odor is a dried up p-trap at the bottom of your basement catch basin (also called a "floor drain") that may be allowing sewer gas to come into the basement. Alternatively, since the weeping tiles around your house drain into either a catch basin or sump pit in your basement, if you haven't had rain for a while, a "musty" smell could be coming from the pipes leading to those weeping tiles.

Are there any loose tiles on your floor?

It's just kinda hard for me to reconcile the notion that there's enough water coming up through the concrete to cause the basement to smell with the notion that the floor is in good enough shape that you're thinking of just putting a new flooring material over it. One of those two pictures has to be wrong.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Familypro40 said:


> Jamie,
> after reading all the warnings on this site I am a bit afraid to as the room is 240 sq.ft. I would like to be rid of it though. Any new thoughts on removal of the old tile and adhesive?
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


Many times safe removal of old flooring that may contain asbestos has been discussed here. I've removed it a number of times. Some basic safety precautions are in order, but I personally don't belive that asbestos floors tiles are generally the hazard they are made out to be.

The State of Minnesota Department of Health give out directions for home owners who want to remove tiles themselves. 

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/asbestos/floortile/index.html#rcan

Jamie


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

26yrsinflooring said:


> Jamie
> It might be wise to stop suggesting people remove asbestos laden tile man.
> And certainly a slab issue that is reactivating the cut back.
> There are still lawsuits pending on asbestos issues.
> ...


Perhaps there is more danger to this than I am aware of? The Minnesoata Department of Public Health for example gives directions to the general public on their web site for people that wish to remove asbestos laben products:

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/asbestos/floortile/index.html#rcan

Jamie


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

I tend to agree with Jamie. While asbestos related lung diseases is on the rise in the general population, MOST of the documented cases of mesothelioma are from people who were exposed to high concentrations of asbestos on a regular basis for many years as part of their jobs. 

The following web site:
http://www.healthzone.ca/health/article/476199
says the chances of developing an asbestos related disease depend on the size and concentration of the asbestos fibers inhaled and the length and frequency of exposure to airborne asbestos fibers. That says that occasional exposure to relatively low concentrations of asbestos fibers (as in removing vinyl tiles that contain asbestos, being somewhat of a "one-time" exposure is much less likely to result in an asbestos related disease than regular, frequent and prolonged exposure that might be incurred on a job.

This web site:
http://www.asbestos.com/exposure/
says:
"Although statistics have shown a growing number of individuals who have never worked with asbestos are suffering with asbestos-related illness, most documented cases of such diseases are caused by occupational exposure.
This is due to the likeliness of repeated exposure, which occurs through standard operations in a variety of industries and jobsites.
Naturally, jobsites such as asbestos mines, processing plants, and manufacturing plants where asbestos products were made have a legacy of high occupational exposure. But many other jobsites, such as oil refineries, power plants, and chemical plants, share a history of asbestos exposure as well."

So, even though we don't know who's susceptible to asbestos related diseases and who isn't until those diseases show up in the individual, the liklihood of contracting a disease from exposure to asbestos is heavily dependant on the frequency and duration of exposure which is typical of people exposed to asbestos on their job.

Also, asbestos was used in so many products prior to 1980, that it's hard to imagine anyone not being exposed to asbestos that lives in a house built prior to 1980. And yet, people that live in those houses don't all die of asbestos related diseases. Here's a list of all the products that were likely to contain more than 1 percent asbestos prior to 1980:
http://www.asbestos.com/products/

Note that baby powder, automotive brakes, cigarette filters, and drywall joint compound are on the list. That means that any mother or baby that used baby powder, every one that ever took their car in to have the brakes checked or replaced the shoes/pads themselves, every smoker, and anyone that ever sanded down a drywall joint prior to 1980 was exposed to airborne asbestos dust. That probably includes 95 percent of the population in 1980. And yet, now, AT LEAST 28 years later, we're all not kicking over from asbestos related diseases.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> I tend to agree with Jamie. While asbestos related lung diseases is on the rise in the general population, MOST of the documented cases of mesothelioma are from people who were exposed to high concentrations of asbestos on a regular basis for many years as part of their jobs. Also, asbestos was used in so many products prior to 1980, that it's hard to imagine anyone not being exposed to asbestos that lives in a house built prior to 1980. And yet, people that live in those houses don't all die of asbestos related diseases.
> 
> The following web site:
> http://www.healthzone.ca/health/article/476199
> ...


Even if the asbetos fibers are a concern, doesn't wearing a $30 respirator and weting down the tiles almost completely mitigate the risk?

It seems to me that asbetos exposure is just like x-ray exposure. We consinder a few xrays pretty harmless, however, it is considered harmful for a xray tech to get exposed to xrays day in and day out. Maybe we will learn something new in the future about asbestos that shows us it is more harmful than we think it is now. But I'd be willing to bet that there is far more danger with many other things than a one time asbestos removal. Just an opinion, but I bet mroe people harm themselves or others with DIY electrical than asbestos... again, just an opinion. 

All that said... Remove asbestos at your own risk, whatever you deem that risk to be...

Jamie


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## jbk (Jan 31, 2008)

*How to Encapsualte Vinyl Tile?*



Familypro40 said:


> Any comments on my idea please ?
> Concrete slab - 40 year old 9x9 asbestos vinyl tile on top of slab. ...


I have a similar situation. I discovered 9x9 vinyl tiles when I ripped out the carpet in one of my rooms. I'd like to encapsulate, put in some type of moisture retardant, then glue engineered wood planks. In my other rooms, the carpet & padding sit on top of the slab, so I was going to apply "Titebond 531" Epoxy moisture retardant on the concrete, and then glue the planks on top of it (the name of the glue I got escapes me at the moment). Could I do the same? Will the moisture retardant bond w/ vinyl tiles? Will it encapsulate the asbestos? Is there a better product to use?

Thanks.


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

jbk said:


> I have a similar situation. I discovered 9x9 vinyl tiles when I ripped out the carpet in one of my rooms. I'd like to encapsulate, put in some type of moisture retardant, then glue engineered wood planks. In my other rooms, the carpet & padding sit on top of the slab, so I was going to apply "Titebond 531" Epoxy moisture retardant on the concrete, and then glue the planks on top of it (the name of the glue I got escapes me at the moment). Could I do the same? Will the moisture retardant bond w/ vinyl tiles? Will it encapsulate the asbestos? Is there a better product to use?
> 
> Thanks.


No glue will survive the application over the 9x9 tiles,the cutback will find a away to reactivate, the resulting VEs will cause the glue to release.
I have seen projects like this fail on a massive scale.
I would suggest a non plastic underlayment like Quiet Walk be placed over it and laminate or floating wood like this http://www.indianafloorsllc.com/handscrapedhardwood.aspx
be installed over it.
The other alternative is a product called Konecto unless you are gonna lay tile then you could use Ditra.


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## jbk (Jan 31, 2008)

26yrsinflooring said:


> No glue will survive the application over the 9x9 tiles,the cutback will find a away to reactivate, the resulting VEs will cause the glue to release.
> I have seen projects like this fail on a massive scale.
> I would suggest a non plastic underlayment like Quiet Walk be placed over it and laminate or floating wood like this http://www.indianafloorsllc.com/handscrapedhardwood.aspx
> be installed over it.
> The other alternative is a product called Konecto unless you are gonna lay tile then you could use Ditra.


Oh no! We've already purchased the engineered hardwood! We had no idea we'd find the vinyl tiles! It sounds like our only option is to remove the vinyl tiles and the cutback!?!?!


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

What style of engineered?
What width ? You still may be able to float it!
We float anything over 4 inches with engineered
Who is the wood manufacture.... and lastly were did you get it?


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## jbk (Jan 31, 2008)

26yrsinflooring said:


> What style of engineered?
> What width ? You still may be able to float it!
> We float anything over 4 inches with engineered
> Who is the wood manufacture.... and lastly were did you get it?


The wood is Shaw Parkway Oak 3" Plank. I just found the manufacturer's info on their website:
http://www.shawfloors.com/hardwood-...Oak/Species_Oak/Parkway_3in_Plank-Harvest_Oak
It looks like it can be floated.

We got it from a shop that is going out of business for $1/sq ft.

If I do go for the floating option... can you recommend what I need to put under the planks? Just general plastic sheet? Or ...? Make & model would be helpful.

Also, maybe you already answered this question and I don't realize it, but if I apply moisture retardant *epoxy* on the vinyl tiles, will that stay? Or will it turn to goop after reacting with the cutback?

Thanks.


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

It is not wide enough to float, you may be able to call Shaw on Monday and ask them but we normally will not float any thing less than 4"
It is just not stable enough unless it has a locking tongue and groove.

Cutback has haunted the industry for years there are no high strength adhesives or epoxys that I know of that will avoid reactivation.
The only product I have been successful with has been concrete overlay but I did not install glue down wood over it.

Many times the close outs are not as great of a deal as one thinks, sure it sounds good and there are plenty of Circus's that need pink elephants but you are not one of them.
You have the flooring application in the lower percentage of acceptable glueable substrates.
The best alternative is complete removal I can only suggest this be done by a professional since there is the possiblity asbestoes in the tile and the glue.
The problem with an abatement is the residual cleaner can still impact the adhesion of wood glue to the substrate.It can cause the concrete to loose an abilty to hol glue.
Be sure if you have an abatement they use the proper removal process.


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