# Solutions for being "off grid"



## user1007

Recently read about these two emerging options. One is for solar tiles that blend with clay tiles and the other is for a roof ridge turbine.

http://www.srsenergy.com

http://www.thepowercollective.com

There seem to be some rumblings about whole house storage batteries that do not have the heat issues but I cannot remember where I read about them and at what stage of development they were.


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## mboxwell

Both wind and solar have their disadvantages and their advantages. Quite often it is a combination of the two that can have the best benefit.

Small wind turbines can be quite inefficient however, and getting the best out of them depends on your site. 
Incidentally, I've just looked up the solar irradiance figures for Toronto and actually, they aren't as bad as you may think. They're certainly good enough to make a solar/wind combination a possible solution - assuming your site is suitable for both solar and for wind power.

Solar actually works better at colder temperatures than warmer - in fact the hotter the panels get the more inefficient they get, so during the winter your system could work quite nicely. Looking at the insolation figures, an 800w system would generate around 1kW of electricity per day during January (on average) whilst in the height of summer you could be generating around 5kW of electricity from the same system. Connected into a grid fallback system, that could be a very useful amount of power.


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## spark plug

Red Squirrel (Poster#1) As long as we're dreaming, I have my own set of wishful thinking. Maybe One day??? Namely. To harness the power of lightning! Imagine having a series of Lightning Rods capture the lightning bolts and put into huge Storage Batteries. We probably could power entire cities for months with one (renewable) charge! Eliminate confusion:yes::no: Through Education!!!:smartass: don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Scuba_Dave

I'd build a waste oil heater
Plus convert my house to burn veggie or bio-diesel
I'm already building a solar heater, plan on more


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## Red Squirrel

spark plug said:


> Red Squirrel (Poster#1) As long as we're dreaming, I have my own set of wishful thinking. Maybe One day??? Namely. To harness the power of lightning! Imagine having a series of Lightning Rods capture the lightning bolts and put into huge Storage Batteries. We probably could power entire cities for months with one (renewable) charge! Eliminate confusion:yes::no: Through Education!!!:smartass: don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


I've thought of this too, but really not sure what kind of system would be able to handle that much power, and convert/store it in a matter for actual use. Guessing tons of large capacitors and some kind of regulating device that slowly drains them to charge the batteries. That would definably be awesome. I'm sure there's lot of energy in the air even without lightning. Perhaps very small lightning discharges that we don't see.


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## jogr

A simple description of lightning is that it occurs when the charge differential between two areas of atmosphere (air to air lightning) or between the atmosphere and ground (air to ground lightning or vice versa) becomes large enough to overcome the resistance of the air to the electron flow. Boom, the electrons stream over all at once.

But there is no need to wait for the lightning strike to actually occur and then hope to catch it. Instead one could draw power by setting up electrodes throughout the atmosphere and ground surface to pick up charge differences that are occuring and allow the electrons to flow in a controled manner before lightning can even occur. This would also protect anything in the area from lightning strikes because the energy is pulled off before a strike can occur.

The only real problem is the cost and that some people might not like towers and wires strung out throughout the sky.


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## Yoyizit

A nearby stream can power a turbine.


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## mboxwell

I have to say I like the idea of using a stream to generate electricity - its a constant form of power generation, which sounds great to me.

The problem is you need an awful big stream with a decent drop to get any real power. I've got a tiny little stream and I've been messing about with it - creating a dam, all that sort of stuff, but so far I've not been able to generate anything worthwhile.

I've got some silly ideas about doing something with a bicycle hub dynamo to charge up a 6v battery and using the power to run some shed lighting or something basic like that, but right now I can't see what else I can do with it...


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## pyper

My "off grid" heating solution is burning wood. The hearth is finally done, and the stove installation is set for Friday!:thumbup:

I saw a feature on TV a month or so ago about a new process for making PV panels. They use what's basically a big inkjet printer to print the panels. Cool stuff. If it works out it should bring the prices way down, and then you can just use more panels in areas where there isn't as much sun.

Most households use most of their energy to heat water for showers and laundry. 

If by "off grid" you just mean literally not connected to the electric grid, then you can heat water and space with propane. It ends up costing about the same as electricity, but it's nice to have heat and hot water when the power is out.


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## justgreenhomes

I'm with Scuba_Dave on the soalr air heater and pyper, except I'd go with a pellet stove. As for PV or wind, first you need to get your load as low as you can. For every $3 you invest in conservation you can expect to save $5 in a PV system.


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## Yoyizit

mboxwell said:


> I have to say I like the idea of using a stream to generate electricity - its a constant form of power generation, which sounds great to me.
> 
> The problem is you need an awful big stream with a decent drop to get any real power. I've got a tiny little stream and I've been messing about with it - creating a dam, all that sort of stuff, but so far I've not been able to generate anything worthwhile.
> 
> I've got some silly ideas about doing something with a bicycle hub dynamo to charge up a 6v battery and using the power to run some shed lighting or something basic like that, but right now I can't see what else I can do with it...


Assuming 100% efficiency, 1 Therm of energy can be had from 14,000 gal/min of water falling 10' for one hour.


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## justgreenhomes

Yoyizit: you have a wealth of technical knowledge. Thanks for sharing!


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## Yoyizit

justgreenhomes said:


> Yoyizit: you have a wealth of technical knowledge. Thanks for sharing!


So how come I ain't rich?


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## Red Squirrel

Yoyizit said:


> Assuming 100% efficiency, 1 Therm of energy can be had from 14,000 gal/min of water falling 10' for one hour.


That's good to know, I've always wondered if I can find a way to turn rain into electricity. In summer it rains non stop here, but certainly not 15k gal /minute! LOL

I was doing research for kicks to see how much power can be generated by a human pedling a bike attached to a generator, and it's way less then I figured. Never really realized how much it takes to get a usable amount of electricity.


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## pyper

justgreenhomes said:


> I'm with Scuba_Dave on the soalr air heater and pyper, except I'd go with a pellet stove.


That's cause you live in Ohio and I live in South Carolina :thumbsup: I can generally get enough wood for free just from downed trees and so forth.

Built a fire yesterday and it was nice and warm. There's something about being warm when it's cold outside that's really satisfying.


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## Scuba_Dave

I see the Hurricanes down South & all the downed trees 
Send me the wood :laughing:


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## Yoyizit

Red Squirrel said:


> That's good to know, I've always wondered if I can find a way to turn rain into electricity. In summer it rains non stop here, but certainly not 15k gal /minute! LOL
> 
> I was doing research for kicks to see how much power can be generated by a human pedling a bike attached to a generator, and it's way less then I figured. Never really realized how much it takes to get a usable amount of electricity.


If you can run upstairs, 6 flights in 20 seconds, you have put out about 1 hp over this interval. 
Hit the steps running.

I tried several times to do 2 hp on a cardio machine before I finally realized that the display does not go over 900w.


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## spark plug

Yoyizit said:


> Assuming 100% efficiency, 1 Therm of energy can be had from 14,000 gal/min of water falling 10' for one hour.


But the efficiency goes way up (disproportionally) as the size of the turbines is increased. Or they wouldn't be such big believers of Hydro-power in Canada where they have an abundance of (natural) waterfalls. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## mboxwell

Here in the UK there was a really good programme about power this last week.

It was called 'The Human Power Station' and it involved connecting bicycles to generators to power a house. At full pelt, they needed 80 cyclists to provide power for one four bedroom family home 

Its available to watch online, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to see it outside of the UK. Here is the link to the BBC web site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/

Follow the link half way down the page to 'The Human Power Station'.

Edit: Just noticed, it's also available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C93cL_zDVIM


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## Daniel Holzman

Current solar power production is approximately 10 watts per square foot, using commercially available panels. A common house service is 100A at 220V, meaning the maximum power draw would be about 22,000 watts. To service that wattage would require a 2200 square foot solar installation, and of course it would not generate any power at night, and the power output would be substantially reduced on cloudy or rainy days. Also, solar power is DC, so you need direct current devices, unless you install an inverter, which reduces overall efficiency.

One solution is to reduce the amount of power you need. In MA where I live in an 1800 sf house, my average bill is about $120 per month, at 18 cents per kwh (very expensive state for electricity), this means that I use a total of about 670kwh per month, or about 22kwh per day, which averages out to about 1000 watts. My peak use is probably about 4000 watts. To meet my peak use, you would need about 400 sf of solar panels.

With more energy efficiency, you could probably get down to 250 sf of solar panels. Unfortunately, with no cost effective way to store the excessive electrical energy you create, there is no simple way to compensate for the lack of power at night, when you need it the most (lighting, cooking, heating etc.). Plus the relatively high cost per kw for installed panels. Solar panels are simply not cost effective at this time.

The folks I know who live off grid heat with wood (very cost effective), and have a small generator for lights, television, computers, and small appliances. They cook with propane. As for hydropower, the cost to install and the complexity make it beyond the average homeowner, not to mention that you need a stream with decent drop to make it work.


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## spark plug

MikeBoxwell said:


> Here in the UK there was a really good programme about power this last week.
> 
> It was called 'The Human Power Station' and it involved connecting bicycles to generators to power a house. At full pelt, they needed 80 cyclists to provide power for one four bedroom family home
> 
> Its available to watch online, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to see it outside of the UK. Here is the link to the BBC web site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/
> 
> Follow the link half way down the page to 'The Human Power Station'.
> 
> Edit: Just noticed, it's also available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C93cL_zDVIM


The trick is to get cost-effective, clean power. That, it seems is next-to-impossible to achieve!


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## Scuba_Dave

Solar panels can be a cost effective way of producing electric
Especially on a DIY installation
A guy in NY installed his own panels & dropped his monthly bill $100-120 a month
He expects to break even in 2.5 years
Currently there is a 30% Govt Tax Credit on the cost thru 2016
There may also be State sponsored programs

Not a solution for being off-grid, but pretty good way of decreasing your electric bill long term

Reducing power usage should be the 1st step


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## pyper

Daniel Holzman said:


> My peak use is probably about 4000 watts. To meet my peak use, you would need about 400 sf of solar panels.


Or you could install the panels for the baseline needs and run a generator for the peak. The trick would be getting it to fire up as needed.

A person could run a separate system for lighting, storing the output of the solar panels in SLA batteries. Then use a power inverter to make it 120v and run compact flourescents. Supposedly the inverter/cfl option is fairly efficient from the standpoint of how much light you get for how much power is consumed.


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## Scuba_Dave

Local person has a 5kw system for sale for $10k
That's $7k after Govt Tax credit, wish I had the $$
Take less then 6 years to break even


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## lichong712

*partly live off grid is better*

Living off grid is a good idea, but by far you had better to choose partly live off grid ideas. Before i build my homemade wind turbines, i am also look forward to find this solutions.but there were no practical alternatives at present. i use my homemade wind turbines as support of current home energy system, it not only reduce power bills by 60%-70% but also protect enviroment. it is also a good idea:thumbup:.


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