# On to the kitchen



## Jim F

Finished my downstairs bathroom and while I do need to do the adjacent laundry room and hallway, that has been put on hold till the kitchen is done. This is not a total DIY. I am working with a contractor and doing some of the work myself. I have gotten most of the old self-stick tiles as well as the sheet vinyl that was on top of that. After that I will tear out the old cabinets. 

Here are some before pics.


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## Jim F

There are some unique challenges to our current kitchen. There are a couple of beams running through this space that are about 3 1/2 inces lower that our already low 7 ft high ceiling. There is a corner that cannot accommodate conventional cabinets because the main vent/soil stack runs down it. The contractor I am working with wanted to have a friend of his build custom cabinets. But his estimate was around 11,000 for the cabinets, a laminate countertop and some type of acryllic sink that we were not crazy about. That was way too much money. 

We are getting in Shenandoah cabinets from Lowes that are all plywood construction. These will have a solid surface countertop and sink. This was much cheaper, around 5200. I've read about the problems people have had with these cabinets and Lowes in general. It is just the limit of what we are willing to spend. The good news is that Lowes will NOT be installing these.:thumbup: We will just have to cross our fingers and hope everything works out with these. 

For the work we are having him do, the contractor's estimate comes in at around 5100. Not too shabby and some of his estimates are maximums so if it costs less, he will discount it off the final payment. Already I saved 180 of his new door estimate when I bought the Therma Tru Smooth star door and sidelight we are putting in. The new door and sidelight are going where the window above the sink currently is. Where the current door is there will be a series of cabinets all 12 inch deep so as not to interfere with the basement door.


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## Jim F

This shallow closet and little bit of wall has never been very practical and will go to provide space and inprove flow. Where the closet and wall form a corner is a structural beam that we will be wrapping somehow. Plus, we will have to figure out what to do with the light switch.


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## Jim F

Early progress on the floor. I have most of off now. Will post more as time and ambition allow.


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## Jim F

Some related threads:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/removing-vinyl-self-stick-tiles-93894/

And this one has my new floor plan design:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f15/looking-door-suggestions-kitchen-remodel-94823/


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## oh'mike

I'm looking forward to this thread---The short ceilings add a challenge.--Mike--


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## gma2rjc

I'm looking forward to this too. I enjoyed the thread about your bathroom, which turned out very nice.


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## CoconutPete

Jim:

I'm looking forward to this! My wife and I are going to be doing the same in a few months.

Your kitchen looks like ours right now - ANCIENT cabinets with all new appliances - LOL.


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## Plump

I think we must have had the same contractor put our kitchens in! Low ceiling, beam across the middle, etc. 

We're starting to do our own renovation, mostly with paint but I look forward to seeing your progress. I'll try and get some pictures with ours as well.

Good luck!


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## Jim F

Plump said:


> I think we must have had the same contractor put our kitchens in! Low ceiling, beam across the middle, etc.
> 
> We're starting to do our own renovation, mostly with paint but I look forward to seeing your progress. I'll try and get some pictures with ours as well.
> 
> Good luck!


The low ceiling and beams to present a challenge. the original structure is post and beam construction. It was moved a block over to it's current foundation in 1939. It was originally an ice house of unknown age.

Here are a couple of pictures of what is in the outer wall. I pried up the trim in the doorway that was cut for the addition in the early '90's. And fortunately managed to get the trim back in place good as new. There is a large beam 10"x7" that sits on top of the cinder block foundation. The cinder block is two courses high in the outer wall to bring the first floor up to the 7 ft height.


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## Jim F

Here are some pictures with the rest of the floor taken up. Well, almost. I still have some under the stove and under some cabinets that were moved after the floor was put down.

Now we are thinking about restoring this olf oak floor but not sure if it is going to be worth it. I posted a related question about that in the flooring section. Also wondering what kind of wood floor finish is best for a kitchen floor which has spills and is mopped frequently. I see where people do have wood floors in their kitchen though.


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## Jim F

Quick update, no new pics to post today although more have been taken. Have taken out the two base cabinets opposite the stove, the tall 24" wide pantry cabinet, and all the wall cabinets. 

The base cabinets sat on on the curb all weekend, finally someone stopped by in a pickup this morning and hauled those away saving me a trip to the transfer station. They would have been in better shape before the snow but maybe he's just using them for landfill. I can almost always count on someone picking up stuff I leave at the curb.

The cabinets are coming between 10A-2P tomorrow. the door is in at the lumber yard and hope to pick that up tomorrow before 10.

Had 6 inches of new snow to clear today so did not get much done on the kitchen. I did manage to make room for the new cabinets in the garage. I can use most of my old wall cabinets either in the garage or laundry room. 

Still have to take out that run of base cabinets around the sinks. I think the best approach is to cut the countertop in between the individual cabinets but open to suggestions. 

Was mapping out the electrical in the basement in plans to 1. replace old 14 ga 15 amp circuit with new 12 ga 20 amp for wall outlets. Also 14 ga for under cabintes lights not to mention I have to move a couple of wall switches. 

In doing so I found what I believe to be a malfunctioning 50 AMP double breaker that served a double wall oven that no longer exists. The electrician wired circuits in according to wire sizes. The problem with this one is that it serves nothing and does not turn off. I'm thinking the quickest solution is to just have the electricin replace the 50 amp breaker with a working one rather than having an open space in my panel. I may add a big appliance or a subpanel to replace the electric ovens some day.


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## shumakerscott

Keep the wood floor :yes:. I would sand it then just seal it up. I'm waiting to see how this turns out. dorf dude...


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## oh'mike

That dead double breaker could be turned into two 20 Amp breakers for the kitchen circuits, if needed.


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## Jim F

Picked up the door at the lumber yard. Just as I was taking it off my truck the delivery truck arrived with the new cabinets. Got to work tearing out the rest of the old cabinets. Now all that's left is the sink cabinet and the dishwasher. 

The contractor is stopping by tomorrow afternoon to have a look and work out some last minute plans. He has a crew of four lined up for Thursday and Friday and will resume on Monday and expects to be done Tuesday. He also hopes to have it servicable for the weekend befor they quit on Friday.


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## Jim F

It took this combination of available tools to cut the old laminate countertop. The circular saw cut most of it. My son's dremel with a small cutting wheel worked best on the laminate in the place where the saw couldn't reach. I switched to the dremel when it became apparent that the rotozip bits couldn't stand up to the laminate. The rotozip made the deeper cuts beyond the laminate.


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## oh'mike

If you haven't added a Sawsall to your tool pile----put that high on the list for your next Fathers Day!


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## Jim F

oh'mike said:


> If you haven't added a Sawsall to your tool pile----put that high on the list for your next Fathers Day!


I actually have a nice Dewalt. I just didn't want to cut that deep. The old cabinets have been disappearing off my curb so I've trying to save them for someone else's reuse. For all I really know they are using them for landfill but I've done my part to recycle. But yeah, a sawsall would have made shorter work of it.


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## CoconutPete

Nice!

Looking forward to more progress.


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## oh'mike

Jim F said:


> I actually have a nice Dewalt. I just didn't want to cut that deep. .



You can make shallow--well controlled cut with your Sawsall --by butting the blade up side down---try that some time.


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## Jim F

Good tip Mike. I met the guy who has been taking the cabinets off the curb. It turns out he doesn't care what condition it's in. The guy is deaf so communication was a little difficult. He probably is using them as landfill.

The contractors got the closet and wall torn out, the new door installed but not trimmed out yet. And the door walled in. They also took off the old concrete and mesh from the inner wall and are going to replace that with regular drywall. All in all a pretty productive first day. I've been working on new wiring. I took pictures but too tired to post them.


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## CoconutPete

OK, at the risk of sounding like an idiot I'm going to ask anyway. When you say someone is "using it for landfill" - what exactly does that mean? Does it mean they have a hole they need to fill or they are dropping it off in exchange for money somewhere?


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## Jim F

CoconutPete said:


> OK, at the risk of sounding like an idiot I'm going to ask anyway. When you say someone is "using it for landfill" - what exactly does that mean? Does it mean they have a hole they need to fill or they are dropping it off in exchange for money somewhere?


Yes, generally a hole or some hillside lot where they are trying to increase their level lot size.


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## Jim F

The day before the hired work started, my son and I pulled a 12 guage up to an existing recepticle where there had been an old and presumably 14 guage since it was served by a 15 amp breaker. 

The plan there is to rewire two existing outlets to make them 20 amp. I have not decided whether or not I need a GFCI breaker there. One is on the wall near the floor and the other is to the right of my second run of cabinets and countertop. It will most likely be used to power small appliances on that counter so a GFCI is probably a good idea. 

I was hoping that we could just pull the old wire through with the fish tape connected. Of course it was stapled requiring some hammering. There is 1-1 1/2 inches of a concrete substance (not plaster) on a steel mesh in my outer walls. At the contractor's suggestion, we decided to pull this all off the back wall of the kitchen and replace it with drywall. This made sense since we are already expanding a window opening for an new 48" door and sidelight and removing the existing door. It will also give us better acces to run new wiring. The other wall will be left as is.


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## Jim F

Day demolition pictures in no particular order. Once the outer siding was removed you can see this wall is made of. I think I have described it here previously. There are two courses of cinderblock, a 10X7 beam which they attached the original house structure to. This was needed to raise the height of the first floor. 

Judging by the cross section,. we believe they then built an second wall inside of the original wall consisting of 3/4 inch tongue and groove with framing members sandwiched in between presumably to make the wall flush floor to ceiling inside.

As you can imagine this unique wall anatomy has added challenges to this renovation project. For instance, In order to bore a hole thtilgh the wall to run romex up from the basement, I need to drill at a slight angle outward from the floor down then measure from a landmark (I used the old copper sink drain) and bore up and an angle from the basement untill that hole met the first one in the middle. Then I had to put a little bend on my 12/2 romex to get it up through those two holes. This is not unlike what we do in medical imaging with vascular catheters. It is not a simple straight drill through a sill plate.


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## Jim F

Here are some inside demo pics. Closet and wall are gone. The concrete/stucco and mesh came off the back wall. 

We discovered there were no headers in the door or window. Apparently, the house is balloon framed, it was probably one story once and made into two. According to the contractor, headers were not necessary because the load is carried all the way up to the roof. They held up that way for many years so it must be the case. The new door is not headed either and if it were, I would have not room for a standard door. I just hope they are right about the headers.

We also discovered that there was no support under that structural beam that runs right above my stove except for the concrete innwer walls. That was remedied with three stacked 2x6's that carry the load down to the large beam and CB foundation. 

The new load bearing members do not leave room for my microwave to be vented straight out the back so will have to vent out the top, make a right trun in the cabinet above then out the wall. It would be easier to recirculate through the charcloal filter but I've heard that is not nearly as efficient at clearing smoke. It's either lose the cabinet space and have proper ventillation or recirculate and save cabinet space. 

The new door was roughed in and the old openings for the door and 9 inch wall vent were closed in by the end of the first day.


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## Jim F

And a few more day one pictures.


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## Jim F

This is what we found when we opened up the corner soffit that gave us additional challenges in planning the cabinets. 

I knew the soil pipe was in there. But, also found heat pipes for the upstairs registers on that side of the house. Thes are the copper ones. Two non-functioning iron pipes and an electrical cable.


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## Jim F

We left off day one with the contractor asking me if I wanted to add a new ceiling to the contract. I had already added the inner wall tear off so he told me to think about it overnight. I wasn't planning to replace the ceiling at this time but it was tempting to have it done. We do want to replace the current lights with can lights which would have been done with the ceiling replacement. 

My wife and I discussed it and decided that it was more than we wanted to do at this time. I am going to be tearing down the ceiling to access the bathroom plumbing when I renovate that in the near future so it would have been a waste. There is nothing I can pay the contractor to do that I can't do myself as far as ceiling work and new lights is concerned. I have already replaced part of that ceiling anyway. I told them to just patch it up where they removed walls and trim as necessary which is included in the contract.

The cabinets are going up quicker that originally estimated but there was considerable rewiring that had to be done and old wires replaced with new ones. They helped me out quite a bit with the electrical so we just traded that additional labor for the cabinet labor we didn't need. 

There was a double switch on the old wall. One controlled the kitchen and one controlled the dining room light. There was a wire coming out of that switch box that went up to two recepticles in my son's room. Those recepticles are now on their own circuit.

The staircase switch was moved to an adjacent wall. The switch by the back entry door will turn on the undercabinet lights. A single switch will control both the kitchen and dining room overhead lights. There will be lights available from either entrance to the kitchen. A three-way to control the ceiling lights from both sides would have been preferable but not feasable without tearing into the ceiling. It was a good compromise. 

They got the first run of cabinets installed, electrical wires added and reworked, the new drywall up and then plumbing reworked for the new sink but did not get the sink. The plan is to use the old sink until the new one comesw with the countertops. They are running a little behind at this point so it may be 5 days after all. We are without a sink for the weekend but we don't really want to try and prepare food in that area yet.

In the meantime, we are eating in the living room with disposable dinnerware and drinking bottled water and having dinner at my inlaws.


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## Jim F

These are for the undercabinet lights, a recepticle which will also feed an outdoor recepticle which I don't currently have, and the switch for the undercabinet lights. The two supply wires I have for undercabinet lighting didn't come out exactly where I wanted them. 

The one on the left is close, but the one on the right is in more of a wall recepticle position so I am thinking abouit just putting in a regular recepticle there to plug in the lights and an undermount recepticle on the left side. It may even be possible to rework that one through the corner soffit to get it actually under the first cabinet of that run.


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## Jim F

These last 4 pics of the plumbing rework are the last of day two which happened yesterday. Pex was used for the sink supply, the sink drain was relocated in the corner waste pipe and there were some heat pipes concealed behind the wall in the old door cavity with heat PEX. 

I have a 24 hr commitment to work today so tomorrow I will be working on those recepticles in the kitchen and junction boxes in the basement. One of the workers used some sort of plug as an alternative to wire nuts in a junction box. I will have to see if I can find some of those at HD or Lowes tomorrow.


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## epson

Good progress so far. Can’t wait to see the end result…


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## alongston

Your progress looks great! Can't wait to see the final outcome.


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## Jim F

anderson111 said:


> the nice kitchen but its thing are totally closed to each other.


I'll try to comment if I can figure out what you are trying to say.


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## kickarse

Looking really good! I too well know the challenges of remodeling an older home that had corners cut. I'll be starting on my own Kitchen in a couple weeks. Hope it all works out for you and I'll be back to check on yeah


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## oh'mike

Any fresh pictures of the kitchen with the walls opened up?


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## Jim F

oh'mike said:


> Any fresh pictures of the kitchen with the walls opened up?


Yep. Read on.

Edit: Actually on second look I don't have any new pictures there yet. Nothing new has happened there yet.


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## Jim F

The second run of cabinets went in yesterday. This job was contracted for 24 man hours of labor for the cabinets. They are up to 27 by the contractor's last estimation so no refund on that part of the contract. And they have more to do. But, at least they can't charge me any more.

Taping and mudding with a day to dry in between each step. Not much else happening in the next couple of days. The wood trim will not happen until after the mud part is done. 

The sink and DW are hooked up temporarily until the new Corian countertops and sink are installed. The countertop people won't be out to measure till 3/9.

I have no compaints about these Shenandoah cabinets so far. I have read where people have had problems with the delivery and sometimes the condition of the cabinets on arrival. The only problem was the door to the right of the oven swings the wrong way which is an easy fix. Oh the cabinet man drilled one of the fronts wrong for the handle so the contractor will be buying a replacement. S--- happens I guess.


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## Jim F

Not thrilled with the patch job on the floor, I gotta be honest. seems almost like a waste of oak. I can't justify refinishing the floor at thes point anyway. It is in rough shape in places, especially alone the old sink wall. 

Sombody really hacked into the floor to install dishwasher plumbing. That is right in front of the new door of course. The contractor plans on putting a transitional piece of wood in front of the door. I can't envision it until it happens. The transtion is needed because ot the height of the new threshold.


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## gmhammes

great progress.


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## Jim F

I think these are what you were looking for Mike. These are the most recent. This are is getting patched up and mudded then trimmed out. There is a junction box in the ceiling that ties my two kitchen lights together. They were formerly on two side by side switches, kitchen and dining room but now they are one. It will just be there until I can open up the ceiling and redo it and the lights. 

We are leaning toward can lights for this area considering the low ceiling. Maybe pendent lights over the sink too. But open to suggestions on lighting.

Unfortunately the workers were ready to wall it in before I could do the wiring. Plus that wiring was pretty complicated for a newbie so I wound up paying for that extra.


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## oh'mike

Looking good--I like the new door--adds a lot of light.

Those old houses take a lot of extra time to work on---You just never know what's going to be hidden inside the walls.

I like the heavy old timber post.

That new kitchen will make your house a lot nicer to live in.---Thanks for the pictures.--Mike---


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## tpolk

next time..haha...think about stealing old flooring from under new cabinets for floor patch. still looks like a patch but is a better match. really nice job by the way, I like thinking jobs :thumbsup:


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## Jim F

tpolk said:


> next time..haha...think about stealing old flooring from under new cabinets for floor patch. still looks like a patch but is a better match. really nice job by the way, I like thinking jobs :thumbsup:


Maybe someday I'll get really ambitious (Like after I retire) and try to bring that old floor back. A better patch with new flooring would have involved tsking up surrounding members and blending them together and staggering them. But I didn't expect them to get that involved. When all is said and done, I will probably reflect on my experiences working with this group of contractors but I won't be bashing them. Just saying there have been pros and cons.


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## LeviDIY

Jim - well done!


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## epson

I like the cabinets very much and those wrought iron handles are really nice. Keep the progress and pictures coming.:thumbsup:


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## Jim F

*I know this is not a "why I hate this product" site but...*

Ok here is my most recent experience in the kitchen project. Recall that the Shenandoah Cabinets ordered through Lowes arrived superfast, in good condition and accurately. Even the delivery drivers working for the third party trucking outfit they contract with were professionals. 

Here is where I am with the countertops- stalled indefinately! The countertop fabricator company sent their templater today. He took his measurements and made his templates. When I asked him when I could expect the countertops he said that if they did not give me a delivery date when they made the template appointment, that probably meant the material was on back order. 

When I called the fabricator customer service representative, I was told the material was on back order and they could not even give me an estimated date of availability. I replied that was not a good answer. She told me that they were only the fabricator and it was out of their hands. I then asked her who is at fault so I will know who to blame in my next online review. So she told me the story. 

Apparently, the solid surface manufacturer known as LG HIGH-MACS is not able to keep up with the demand of any of the promotional colors they had partnered with Lowes to sell in this promotion. I don't know who is more responsible between LG, described by some as the GE of the East, or Lowes. As an end user however, I can tell you who is going to bear the brunt of my wife's dissatisfaction-LOWES! In the meantime, I will be fabricating temporary countertops out of plywood so we can finally use our kitchen.

On a lighter note, Here are a few more progress pics of the outside. There really hasn't been much progress. The contractor and his helper did get the microwave installed and a fair amount of the wood trim done today. They are having no luck so far finding a match to the siding installed on the addition in 1990. The wood trim pics will follow soon. Looking pretty good so far.

Here is an article with some info on solid surface materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corian


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## CoconutPete

Awesome job!


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## gma2rjc

The door looks great and I love that big porch. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Barb


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## gmhammes

Is there any other material on the house that can be also used for the back wall instead of siding. Maybe a grey cedar or even a stone to accent the siding? Multiple siding styles is getting popular these days in my area.


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## Jim F

Progress is being made. I've started filling that hole I created for the new refrigerator outlet with durabond 90. My first coat was so thick that it took way more that 90 munutes to set. I also decided to upgrade that outlet to 20amp. I've got the sink to the refrigerator cabinet covered with plywood and got rid of that old piece of laminate the sink was sitting in. I will have to cover the rest tomorrow since today is a work day. 

The Lowes rep called the fabricator and got a 2 week estimate on the countertop material so those will be at least 3-4 weeks out. The rest of the family is working on moving back in to the kitchen today so we can have our living room back and a little more normalcy. We have been eating dinner at my in-laws since this started. 

We are leaning toward pergo for the kitchen floor and will most likely extend it into the living room. HD has an oak pattern for 1.77 per sq ft that my wife likes. The alternative is to do the kitchen and dining room area in a tile pattern but they are all at 3.97 per sq. ft. so it doesn't make as much sense from a financial point of view. 

I know many have said we should refinish the oak, but it is very distressed in places and will take a lot more patching to make it look nice. Along the old wet wall, It would have to be completely replaced. And for all that effort it will get a lot of hard wear between the kids and the pets. I would like to just float a floor over the top of the oak and leave the option for restoring the oak at a future date, maybe after some of the kids have moved out.

Any thought's on Pergo? Or is there a laminate that is better?


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## Jim F

Here are some of the temporary countertops I made while I wait for the LG Hi macs. The latest is that they should be in to the fabricator within about a week and a half but we'll see. 

The dishwasher just drains into the sink for now. There is a tailpiece adapter for that drain but just want to make one measurement and one cut when the permanent sink comes in with the countertops.


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## LeviDIY

You know, had I had the foresight you have, I would have saved a lot of headaches from my wife had I thought of temporary countertops!


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## Jim F

LeviDIY said:


> You know, had I had the foresight you have, I would have saved a lot of headaches from my wife had I thought of temporary countertops!


There is actually some degree of hindsight involved with the countertops. I was originally just planning on saving the piece of laminate that the sink sat in. Decided to replace that. I have a couple of small pieces left to cover the other side by the stove. It keeps dust and whatnot out of the cabinets and gives a working surface. 

Advice I have for anybody renovating a kitchen- plan on temporary countertops and restore it to normal functionality as soon as possible. The kitchen represents a large part of living. When your kitchen is a mess, your life is a mess. Other things like flooring, back splashes, and paint will fall into place.

My wife wasn't planning on moving stuff back into the kitchen until the countertops arrived. I told her that's a long time to have our lives upside down with kitchen stuff stacked in the living room and bedroom. She finally agreed to start moving stuff back in. We are also replacing the dining room table but thankfully have one of those folding table and chair sets that my mother-in-law gave us.


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## Jim F

Just picture of the patch for the new refrigerator outlet and the refrigerator in place. I have the outlet functional with the fridge plugged in as well as the water supply hooked up. Unfortunately, I still have to slide the fridge out to finish the patch.

And now, as fate would have it, My wife want's to order doors for that shelf area above the fridge so I have to just finish framing that in and order some matching doors. I have discovered that I can by hickory by the board-foot at a local mill for a lot cheaper than the cabinet company sells fillers. They just need a coat of clear urethane finish.


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## Jim F

Here are a couple of the post and beam wrap the contractor did. They matched it as well as they knew how. It doesn't look bad.


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## Jim F

*Need some opinions here.*

Today my GC stopped by and installed the siding on the exterior. Looks nice pictures will follow. He has some detail work to finish up and can't completely finish his part until the countertops get installed due to the fact that he is hooking up the sink. The countertops are on back order but we were told last Saturday that they expect them at the fabricators in 2 weeks so presently, within a week and a half then an install appt to be made once they arrive at the fabricators. 

Here is my problem: Today as he was finishing up the siding, he hit me up for $400.00 which represents the bulk of the final 10% that I owe him on completion. In other words, I owe him another 510 of the 5100 of his contract. The reason he gives for wanting this money is that he did not anticipate the counters taking as long as they are. He figures he has about another 100 dollars worth of labor that he owes me so I should pay him the rest of it now. 

Personally, I am very surprised that he asked for this. In my opinion, 10% on completion means just that. As it is I've been thinking that I should not have agreed to may as much as I have. It seems to me that a contractor could easily walk away from 510 dollars without completing a job and have his accountant file it as a non-payment loss.

This contract hasn't been without problems. They did extra electrical work which I did discuss with them for which I was charged an additional $730. I don't object to paying that but I do object to the fact that a dollar sum had not been specified before the work was done. He even suggested that he might just take that labor off the difference of the cabinet install but that did not happen. On top of that, he isn't even licensed to do electrical work and that was the reason we didn't even discuss electrical work at the beginning of the contract negotiation.

The cabinet install is another point of contention. He had budgeted $1200.00 for 24 man-hours to install 15 cabinets. Shouldn't that be enough? Now says that he has already gone over his labor budget by 3-5 hours and has more to finish. And, some of the cabinets are slightly off level. On the first day of the install, he had 3 and sometimes all four of his contractors working on the cabinets. Why should it take more than 2 with the occasional help of a 3rd to install cabinets? That's where his labor budget went IMO. He also told me that he has gone slightly over his materials budget. These are points he made to get me to pay him 400 up front before the job is completed.

In my contractor's defense, he has gone above and beyond in some areas. He is doing a good job of making it all look like a nice finished job. Going against him though are the messes he has left behind every day for me to clean up and the fact that he made no effort from the beginning at dust mitigation. I taped plastic up between the work area and the rest of the house as work was commencing and as a result, did not have a very good dust barrier on the first day. I did improve it for the rest of the work days. Not only that but he was, at times unprepared and borrowed some of my tools, cordless drill, impact driver, air hose, shovel etc. And sent me for materials such as 5 gallons of blue lid, drywall etc. 

The biggest problem is he is primarily a new home builder, not a remodler. So there is a lesson learned. Hire a remodling contractor for remodling.

So, given the circumstances as I have laid them out, should I hold him to the letter of his contract? Or am I just being an anal homeowner who should give this guy a break and make the partial payment.


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## gma2rjc

We had a good friend build our deck 10 years ago. He did a great job. But before he was finished, I paid him in full. I shouldn't have. It took him from the day I paid him that summer until the next spring, after I called him a couple times, to come back. 

I think you should wait and give him the 10% upon completion. He may get busy with other jobs and not find time for your house if you pay him the $400 now. JMO


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## Jim F

So I relented and agreed to pay 300 of the remaining 519 that I owe on this job. The GC has been pretty accommodating. He explained that the final 10 percent check is essentially his profit on the job after all his contractors are paid and materials bought. I would have hoped he could make more than that on a job like this considering all that went into it. I suppose he could be snowing me on that. He really doesn't have that much left to do after the counter tops are installed. He just has to hook up the sink and dishwasher and finish trimming out the door where it meets the cabinet and counter on the left side. If I can't get him back once the conter tops come in, I'll just do it myself and pocket the remaining 219. All in all I don't think he had enough experience with kitchen remodels and underestimated his job and kind of sold himself short. I hope he learns from the experience.


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## gma2rjc

I'm not sure, but isn't there something he's supposed to give you saying all of his contractors have been paid? So that they can't come back to you and say he didn't pay them?

I had to go back and look at the before pictures Jim. Wow, I really like the way the kitchen is so much bigger. Everything looks great and the cupboards are very nice. Your wife must be very happy with the way it's turning out. She's going to have a beautiful kitchen when it's all done.


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## epson

Jim F said:


> Here are some of the temporary countertops I made while I wait for the LG Hi macs. The latest is that they should be in to the fabricator within about a week and a half but we'll see.
> 
> The dishwasher just drains into the sink for now. There is a tailpiece adapter for that drain but just want to make one measurement and one cut when the permanent sink comes in with the countertops.


I used to work for a kitchen manufacture awhile back and when we delivered the cabinets but no counter top because of either back order/damage we would build a temporary plywood counter so the customer could use the kitchen until we came back to install the counter. That saved a lot of headaches for us and the customer was very understanding because they at least had a counter and a kitchen that they could work in.


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## epson

gma2rjc said:


> I'm not sure, but isn't there something he's supposed to give you saying all of his contractors have been paid? So that they can't come back to you and say he didn't pay them?
> 
> I had to go back and look at the before pictures Jim. Wow, I really like the way the kitchen is so much bigger. Everything looks great and the cupboards are very nice. Your wife must be very happy with the way it's turning out. She's going to have a beautiful kitchen when it's all done.


I believe it’s called a construction declaration and also a works compensation completion certificate from all the trades/ workers that they are paid and also covered by workers compensation in case they get hurt on the job so you don’t have to pay for any accidents that might occur on site.


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## Jim F

If the GC's workers are all self-employed, privately contracting, they are not employees of the contractor and the GC is not required to carry workmen's comp for them.

The other thing, I will ask him about.


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## Jim F

I finally have power hooked up to the new recepticles and switches. The micro and refrigerator each have a dedicated 20 amp outlet (overkill for the fridge I know). A second 20 amp to the back wall and an outdoor outlet to the other side of that. And, 2 new switched 15 amp outlets for undercabinet lights. The double gang switch on the back wall serves the outdoor light and undercabinets. The undercabinet outlets are not in the ideal position but there is one for each run. I will have to find a low voltage LED system so I can hide the wires behind trim etc.

Not really sure how best to mount the porch light. Somehow I have to mount a round box in that unconventional wall. I don't know if the plastic wings on those old work boxes will work to hold it in.

And now my wife wants doors above the refrigerator. I will have to see if they carry doors that size. 

We have finally moved back into the kitchen and cleaned up all the construction debris. I have cleaned up the porch several times but now have leftover trim and scraps to sort out and either store or dispose.


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## Jim F

The countertops are finally being installed tomorrow. That gives me today to wall in that plumbing corner. I used Durabond 90 to fill in the gaps. My contractor didn't see the need to wall in anywhere that doesn't show like behind the cabinet. I see that a little differently I guess. I will always know that it is open behind there. It doesn't have to be finished just closed in. I also intend to fireblock the gaps around the pipes between floors.


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## Jim F

I also thought it would be a good idea to take care of the area above the sink window wherre the old shower has been leaking over the years in spite of my many recaulking jobs. There was a lot of debris from that. Tomorrow I hope to get a top coat over the tape befor the countertops arrive. Then prime and replace the trim. For now, everybody is showering in the newly remodeled downstairs bathroom. The upstairs bathroom is next.


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## Jim F

It looks like the neighbor across the street is doing some home improvments. He is having a terrace removed to have more level real estate alongside his house. I guess he is planning to put a shed in there. I hope it's not ugly. The terrace was at least nice to look at. I also hope he doesn't need a retaining wall there. The landscapers said he is just planning to seed it with grass. There is a lot of runnoff from that slope.


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## CoconutPete

Jim: You've started an epidemic in your neighborhood. Good job!!!!


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## Jim F

CoconutPete said:


> Jim: You've started an epidemic in your neighborhood. Good job!!!!


Have you seen my next door neighbor's home improvements? Gaagh!


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## Jim F

The countertop material finally came in after being on back order since my last posting on the topic. The fabricators wasted no time scheduling their install to their credit. Also to their credit, their installers seemed very knowlegeble and took great pride in their work. That's nice to see especially considering these guys are likely not contractors but rather, hourly employees. 

The company is called Solid Surface Craftsmen located in the Albany NY area. Lowes definately picked a winner when they partnered with this company.

The tin in the corner is what my wife wants for a back slpash but maybe not that color.


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## epson

Very nice job but I don’t see any GFCI plugs near your kitchen counter?


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## Jim F

The two twenty amp outlets that have the toaster and kitchen aid plugged in are GFCI protected at the breaker. I have to find some of those little stickers. The two next to those are switched and will serve the undercabinet lights. The two by the coffee pot are 20 amp on the same circuit. One of those will be rewired into the switched circuit for undercabinet lighting and the other will have a GFCI recepticle. As usual I have way too much going around me to dedicate the time to this project to complete it. Now my mother in law is in the hospital. I do appreciate your pointing that out though since that is a big safety concern.


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## coderguy

Jim F said:


> The two twenty amp outlets that have the toaster and kitchen aid plugged in are GFCI protected at the breaker. I have to find some of those little stickers. The two next to those are switched and will serve the undercabinet lights. The two by the coffee pot are 20 amp on the same circuit. One of those will be rewired into the switched circuit for undercabinet lighting and the other will have a GFCI recepticle. As usual I have way too much going around me to dedicate the time to this project to complete it. Now my mother in law is in the hospital. I do appreciate your pointing that out though since that is a big safety concern.


Better than stickers?

http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/...ex-Outlet-Covers-for-Protected-Locations.html


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## Jim F

coderguy said:


> Better than stickers?
> 
> http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/...ex-Outlet-Covers-for-Protected-Locations.html


 Wow! For $21.95 they had better be. I don't have that kind of budget for this project. I think there will be some stickers in the GFCI recepticle that I bought for the other side.


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## epson

Just use one of these

 

*A DYMO LabelMANAGER 220P Thermal Label Printer and print all the labels you need.*


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## Jim F

Just wanted to post an update. New pics coming soon. I really haven't done much since the last posting. The contractors have finished with their part. There is wood trim in the empty spaces above the cabinets around the two beams and the area above the refrigerator has been framed in and will have doors after all (wife changed her mind about that). The porch light got remounted. We used our old one which my wife really likes. I just cleaned it up some. The old wall around the kitchen window has been removed and replaced with drywall and mud but I have yet to replace the window trim.

I'm prepping the floor for the Pergo laminate I bought. I removed the old, damaged oak flooring in front of the kitchen door. It had huge holes hacked into it for the old plumbing. It also had some water damage from many years of occasional spills from the sink and dishswasher. The patches that the contractor put in didn't quite come up to the level of the old floor so I will have to find some way to level these small areas. am trying to stay away from SLC. 

I found out why their patches fell short today when I tried to buy a few pieces to relace what I had taken up. Modern oak floor is less thick by about 1/16". The tongue and groove don't quite match either. They told me they could mill flooring to my specification but it woud be a few weeks until they got a new supply of oak in to mill. The old floor is the same thicknes as 1X milled pine and oak boards. I figured since I just need a patch under Pergo to just go with low quality pine boards which cost $10.00 for 2 1X6X9 boards. An equal amount of oak would have cost 40. I did stagger the boards when I cut them out. I managed to do a fair job of that with my sawsall. I really should have had a multi tool for that job. rather than cutting that hole square, I salvaged small pieces of the old floor that I removed and screwed them in to make it square. It will make more sense once I post some pics. This way, it will be easier to restore the oak floor in the future which is something I may do.

My young son had spring break last week and my young daughter has her's this week so I won't be able to do much until next week.


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## Jim F

Sort of a lazy Monday. Finally more progress pics. I cut out the section of water damaged and hacked floor boards in front of the kitchen door. There used to be a sink and dishwasher there. You can see part of the pine board patch I made before covering it with Pergo. I thought I took pics of the entire patch but apparently not.

My mother-in-laws insane cocker spaniel dug at my new door when she was left alone for a couple of hours. I still haven't fixed that mess but got some plastic wood and have some small pine trim pieces to fix it. 

And some early progress pics of the new floor.


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## Jim F

More progress pics of the floor. 

My cutting station set up on the porch. 

And The bad patch job one of my contractor's subs did. He told me this was sand and finish ready. There is almost a 1/4 drop from old floor to patched floor in places. I have to shim this before covering it with the Pergo. New oak flooring is thinner the old. It is less than 3/4 inch and the tong ad grooves don't match. You have to have oak custom milled to match old oak floor around here. I know, I should have made them redo it right? But when all was said and done, I just wanted them out of my house. I can remedy the rest.

Followed some bad web advice and ztrashed a new saw blade cutting the Pergo that I didn't need to. The obvious had to be pointed out to me- all your cut ends and edges are hidden by border trimso it doesn't matter if the surface is a little chipped. 

Cut a chunk of meat out of the tip of my left thumb on my new table saw but I then read up on table saw safety and am using it a lot safer now.


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## LeviDIY

Jim - how fast is that Pergo running through your saw blade? I did about 1000 sqft in my kitchen/living and dining room and it ate a few blades!


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## Jim F

As long as it cuts the pergo, I'll continue to use it for that. The blade on the miter saw is already old so I don't mind using that one as well. I tried to rip a pine 2x4 on the table saw blade and it just burned the wood so I won't be using it for anything but the pergo and swap it out for a good blade for trim cuts. Hoping to get through 450 Sq ft with the blades I already ruined but well see. I'm doing the entire first floor except for the addition and am about 1/3 done now.


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## oh'mike

I trashed a 12" chopsaw blade installing laminate---I wanted to cry. I've never known a product that was as tough on blades.


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## CoconutPete

jim:

Looks good! My wife have been going back and forth on what to use in the kitchen and keep coming back to pergo. I look forward to hearing what you think when you have started using the kitchen w/ it.


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## LeviDIY

This is Jim's forum - but just to let you know, CPete, I did Pergo in the kitchen about 15 months ago now... we love it... durable, easy to clean... the underlayment is key to making it comfortable to stand on while cooking, etc.

We are careful to quickly wipe up any spills, but I've spilled entire pots of pasta water, etc... and no issues, just make sure the seams are tight at install and the edges at the wall, toe kicks are caulked/sealed.


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## Jim F

So far we like it. At 1.71/sq.ft. for the Presto style at HD it was the cheapest solution we could find. I didn't want to staple down underlayment then vinal as the staples would further damage the oak underneath. 

The oak is in rough shape so restoring it is not an option now but I'm thinking further down the road I may want to restore it. It's true what they say about the noise. The dog's claws hitting ithe floor make a louder sound than before. It's also very durable. 

I used scrap pieces on the edge when I had to stop and am glad I did as those edges are vulnerable to damage without the male tab clicked into place.

I hope to get back to it tomorrow but things keep coming up. Along with the floor, I am finishing out the window trim, working on converting a half view screen door into a full view, and trying to prep the pool site to get the kids pool up by Memorial weekend.


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## Jim F

The porch light is back up and the porch is getting back in order. This light has been up for some time now but I just getting these pictures up.

I looked at wood screen doors but the just don't build them too well anymore so decided to convert my old one into a full view. Also have to reverse the handle and hinges. Sorry, I didn't take before pictures. The screen had a wood panel in it before and I joining the two inserts together- the one that had the screen to the one that had the glass.


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## Jim F

More progress. A lot has been put on hold while I put up the pool for the kids. The dryer is on the fritz, getting serviced this Tuesday. That means hanging up clothes on the line. The clothes line came down yesterday so that is today's unexpected project. 

This is my floor progress to date. The kitchen is almost completely done and we are using that floor in the livingroom. The floor was put on hold before the holiday weekend and I haven't got back to it yet.

The corner cabinet was not originally supposed to be a cabinet at all, just a false front with a door. The GC I hired for the kitchen decided he had enough material to make it a functional cabinet which was a bonus. He mounted the top and bottom and built a cabinet face. That left me the task of buying hinges and a forstner bit and mounting hinges to the door. I also put the back on the cabinet and covered up the pipes in that corner. I used some remnant sure ply underlayment for that. Had to cut it into two peices to get it through the opening. Hope to have the door mounted soon.


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## CoconutPete

NICE!

I'm doing pergo in mine!!!


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## Jim F

A few minor updates.

Remember I wound up with a bonus cabinet where the contractor built a cabinet face, top and bottom where there was originally supposed to be a non-functioning door for show. I left off at the point where I had installed the hinges on the door using my drill press and a forstner bit. I thought that was the hard part. I had never used a forstner bit and the measurements are very precise on such an installation. 

After that mounting the door hinges to the face should be a piece of cake right? Wrong! First, given the narrow opening, I should have had a right angle drill which I don't own. I even considered buying one just for the occasion. Instead I made do with my impact driver. Hickory is a very hard wood. I broke 2 drill bits and at least 4 screws. Those hinge kits they sell at Lowes have very low quality aluminum screws. I finally bought a couple of screws that looked like they would work, said a Hail Mary and just screwed them into the mess of holes I made working around the broken off screws. 

The door ended up being slightly higher that the adjacent door but decided to call it good. These pics are the result of this effort, just finished this AM with the handle install.


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## Jim F

And here is the completed screen door. The green no longer goes with the porch so now I will have to repaint it white.

I did do more to the floor yesterday before work. Not enough to post pics. I will post when it is completed. 

I don't make much progress during the summer. Next week I have some Vac days and hope do make meaningful progress to the floor. Recall that my wife has me continuing the Pergo into the living room.

I have mixed feelings about the Pergo. It is very echoey. The dog's claws make loud tapping on this floor plus it is hard for her to get her footing. She really needs her claws trimmed and that will probably help. I would have preferred to use the prebacked flooing if it were not so much more per sq. ft. It almost would have been worth it for the time I would have saved not having to measure and cut all that foam backing.


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