# Vinyl window leaking through weep hole



## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

House is 7 years old. I have a window that i believe is leaking through the weep hole. I noticed a swollen baseboard just under the window. Removed the baseboard and a small section of drywall - I can see a small bit of water coming down the inside of the OSB and just above it is the weep hole of the window. I checked the weep hole and its clean. I tested it by pouring window into the inner track and the weep hole drains as designed.....but i waited about 10-15 minutes and then in the wall, I could start to see a new bead of water forming. When i poured the water in, I didn't flood the entire track, I basically poured it right into the weep hole. I am thinking maybe there is an issue with the integral water collection system of the window - maybe a hair line crack.

Problem is - besides looking in the hole on the inside and outside, I don't see any other way to find the leak. I'm going to try to remove the piece of siding (fiber cement) just below the window this weekend to see if that will give me any more visibility to the underside edge of the window.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Thanks for any help!

Here is a shot of the weep hole (and i know it looks like water might be on the sill - that's just a glob of paint):









And here is a picture of the lead - this is from the hole i cut in the drywall looking up to the underside of the window - the source of the leak is not the nail you see - its coming from where the OSB meets that 2x4 that the window is resting on.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Need a picture from the outside. Step out the window and lets see the outside interface.


----------



## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Need a picture from the outside. Step out the window and lets see the outside interface.


 Sorry for the delay - its hard to get pics of the outside of the window in question....but here is of another window, exact same interface. Hope this helps.


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

The problem is doubtlessly related to the WRB or lack thereof, flashing tape or lack thereof, which is compounded by the fact that they stuck your LP siding into the integral j channel, where the cut ends of the siding are left uncaulked (not an approved LP installation method).

Nothing to do with your weep holes.


----------



## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

XSleeper said:


> The problem is doubtlessly related to the WRB or lack thereof, flashing tape or lack thereof, which is compounded by the fact that they stuck your LP siding into the integral j channel, where the cut ends of the siding are left uncaulked (not an approved LP installation method).
> 
> Nothing to do with your weep holes.


Thanks for the reply.

I do know that we have a WRB....but hard to tell if flashing tape was done correctly. I do have someone coming today to remove a few pieces of siding to get a better view of the bottom of the window.

The part where I am still left scratching my head is the test i did where i poured water into the weep hole (from the inside), and that's how i saw leaking into the wall. There was no other water being introduced (rain, etc) besides the small bit of water poured into the weep hole and a few minutes later i could see some leaking down into the wall - but the majority did exit that drain hole on the outside of the window. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

You can't tell what isn't or isn't there until you pull some siding. I would like to see a picture from just under that integrated J-channel if the leak is showing where the weep hole is. 

Could be cut a bit short or just short how it fell, and a piece of aluminum flashing to close the gap could be the simplest fix.


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

That is interesting. Personally I NEVER use double hungs with a pocket sill like that. IMO they are just asking for problems such as icing shut.

Do you see any plugs or installation screws down through the sill? If not the only way water could get from a weep hole to leak in would be a cracked/leaking corner frame. Not unheard of since they can fill with water, freeze and pop.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1.

ZERO reason to ever use a pocket sill window. Just asking for trouble when you can avoid all of it with a sloped sill.


----------



## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

I dont see anything - plugs or screws- through the sill - but hopefully will have more information this afternoon.

And I cant really change my windows at this point - but i will def keep this window information in mind for the next house.

Will follow up once we get some siding off.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

You don't necessarily need to take the siding off. We need to see the head siding interface as well as the sides and underneath.


----------



## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

So, the window is one where there are two sides with a middle divider - each side can open/close separately of the other. After some testing, it appears its not the weep hole. We poured water in there, waited a while, all was good. We then poured a ton of water into the track, and we noticed the water would go under that middle divider and into the rail of the next window and also come out the weep hole on that side. So it appears that the leaking is coming from somewhere under that middle divider. The guy said that when the windows are built, the middle divider is just screwed in from the top and bottom and it should be sealed with silicone at the factory. So, I am going to try to caulk that small joint where the water is going under that middle divider, and then do a water test to see if that solves my issue.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

We could have likely told you all of this if we have a bit better pictures that were from further back. Are you referring to a "mullion" between the two units?


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

Are you saying you have 2 windows mulled together side by side? If so, that integral j channel is probably funneling water down between the windows. Could be on top at the siding or it could be coming from another window above, getting behind the nail fin, then it gets on top of the window in the rough opening, running down the mullion.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

If the winders were installed with a drain plane that leak would never bother anything, water would go down between the siding and wrap and out the bottom. 
2011-06-03 - Installing Rainscreen for our windows - YouTube


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

Unfortunately many window installers aren't even up to speed on how to detail the housewrap and flashing tape. Let alone sill pans or rain screen. The siding detail gives away the fact that they weren't too brilliant.

And rainscreen has not caught on everywhere like it may have in the pacific northwest.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

XSleeper said:


> Unfortunately many window installers aren't even up to speed on how to detail the housewrap and flashing tape. Let alone sill pans or rain screen. The siding detail gives away the fact that they weren't too brilliant.
> 
> And rainscreen has not caught on everywhere like it may have in the pacific northwest.


It's mostly unnecessary everywhere else in the US. If we just did WRBs, drip caps, and flashing details correctly...none of this would happen. Never seen properly done siding, devoid of rainscreen, leak in 20 years. 

Mullions are always leak points unless they are zero mullions and locking strips.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> It's mostly unnecessary everywhere else in the US. If we just did WRBs, drip caps, and flashing details correctly...none of this would happen. Never seen properly done siding, devoid of rainscreen, leak in 20 years.
> 
> Mullions are always leak points unless they are zero mullions and locking strips.


But you haven't seen one leak for 20 years


----------



## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

We don't do rain screening here neither. Only time have seen problems with mullion is when lock strip was not installed right or no drip cap. I take extra care on the top of them .


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

Pella often ships their mulled Lifestyle and Architect Series units out without a drip cap over the mullion. I guess you have to specify it. Should really be standard if they don't want them to leak.


----------



## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

XSleeper said:


> Pella often ships their mulled Lifestyle and Architect Series units out without a drip cap over the mullion. I guess you have to specify it. Should really be standard if they don't want them to leak.


I normally have to make them, but have a brake so no problem. Andersen are about the only ones I get caps with the windows.


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

Pella has proprietary parts designed to match all their colored cladding, heavy gauge aluminum, not just trim coil. One of their 3 drip cap options (page 3 of 46 here) is meant to snap into the groove just like their frame expander does. It just ticks me off that its not standard. Extra! $$$


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> But you haven't seen one leak for 20 years


Guess you missed the "done properly" part.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Guess you missed the "done properly" part.


And when you do it properly. it is called, rainscreening.


----------



## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> And when you do it properly. it is called, rainscreening.


Only if that is what is needed in your area.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> And when you do it properly. it is called, rainscreening.


Like I said and like @Randy Bush just noted, not required in about 98% of the continental US.

Well...he didn't say the 98%, but I am. 

Again...in a perfect world where money is no matter and you want the best of the best, knock yourself out.

As it pertains to this case, sounds to me like rainscreening was total unnecessary here if someone just sealed the mullion properly. No need to go invented a wall cladding system that adds significantly to the difficulty and expense of the wall cladding if you just installed the mullion correctly.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Randy Bush said:


> Only if that is what is needed in your area.


We make houses tighter and tighter so houses don't dry out. There are only 2 types of windows, those that leak and those that don't leak yet. 
If it not code where you are, it will be soon.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Like I said and like @Randy Bush just noted, not required in about 98% of the continental US.
> 
> Well...he didn't say the 98%, but I am.
> 
> ...


You are on a thread where the person has a leak damaging his house and you know how it is done and you say it is not needed. 
You should be running a the grid in Texas, you would fit right in.


----------



## XSleeper (Sep 23, 2007)

I don't think the leak is a result of rainscreen or no rainscreen. Kind of pointless to beat that dead horse cuz I doubt he is tearing off all his siding and tearing out all his windows to do it. So please, just drop it already.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

XSleeper said:


> I don't think the leak is a result of rainscreen or no rainscreen. Kind of pointless to beat that dead horse cuz I doubt he is tearing off all his siding and tearing out all his windows to do it. So please, just drop it already.


If it had been rainscreened in the first place there would be no damage with a minor leak like this.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> You are on a thread where the person has a leak damaging his house and you know how it is done and you say it is not needed. You should be running a the grid in Texas, you would fit right in.


Great contribution and nonsensical analogy...but none of that is true. I asked...repeatedly...for pictures so that we could effectively diagnose and identify the problem. 

The claim, that somehow homes all need rainscreens, is idiotic. 

For the record...so that folks that clearly have a comprehension issue can understand it...the home wouldn't have manifested this leak if the windows, siding, and flashing were done properly from the outset. No rainscreen is required in this case to deal with wind driven rains and provided for an additional drainage/drying plane if the window installation (i.e. flashing, tie in, drip cap, mullion, etc.) was done properly from the outset. 



Nealtw said:


> If it had been rainscreened in the first place there would be no damage with a minor leak like this.


You actually don't really know that without pulling the window apart or knowing its construction. If the leak was at the mullion, the more critical issue to keep the water off the sheathing is how the sill was flashed as the water will perc right down and in between. So, unless your blanket recommendation of a "rainscreen" as the catch-all solution includes a properly sloped RO sill, butyl or rigid sill flashings, and proper tie into the correctly installed WRB...a "rainscreen" is just an expensive experiment that is more often done wrong...than right. 

But by all means...tell me more about how what I have said is analogous with me running the Texas grid.


----------



## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

Windows on Wash said:


> Great contribution and nonsensical analogy...but none of that is true. I asked...repeatedly...for pictures so that we could effectively diagnose and identify the problem.
> 
> The claim, that somehow homes all need rainscreens, is idiotic.
> 
> ...


And rain screen is not the magic cure for poor workmanship.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Randy Bush said:


> And rain screen is not the magic cure for poor workmanship.


Exactly. If they got the darn twin double hung and flashing wrong, what the heck is the likelihood they get the rainscreen right? Less than "0" at that point.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Great contribution and nonsensical analogy...but none of that is true. I asked...repeatedly...for pictures so that we could effectively diagnose and identify the problem.
> 
> The claim, that somehow homes all need rainscreens, is idiotic.
> 
> ...


It is clear you don't know what you don't know.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> It is clear you don't know what you don't know.


Sure. I guess me and @Randy Bush are both idiots on this because we don't think a rainscreen is necessitated here. 

Okay. Still not sure how a rainscreen is designed to fix improper window installations...but apparently you are the boss of this forum and of all things siding and windows. Interesting...because we have installed about 150,000 windows at this point and re-sided about 1,000 homes. Never had an issue without a rainscreen. Maybe it's just "luck". 

I am going to play the lottery today as a result of this new revelation from you Neal. If I win, I will send you a case of booze.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Sure. I guess me and @Randy Bush are both idiots on this because we don't think a rainscreen is necessitated here.
> 
> Okay. Still not sure how a rainscreen is designed to fix improper window installations...but apparently you are the boss of this forum and of all things siding and windows. Interesting...because we have installed about 150,000 windows at this point and re-sided about 1,000 homes. Never had an issue without a rainscreen. Maybe it's just "luck".
> 
> I am going to play the lottery today as a result of this new revelation from you Neal. If I win, I will send you a case of booze.


I don't know what you think is an experiment, an air gap behind siding was done on Victorian houses and can be found in those old big houses that still have the original siding in good shape.
Window and door pans came out of northern Europe 25 or 30 years ago, so it is tried and true. 
Windows leak and sweat causing all kinds of problems and can be limited to the trim around them and you can double the life of a window that leaks a little.
If the window in question on this thread had been done with a pan, the leak would not have been detected and it would not be doing damage to the framing the insulation or the wall board. There fore there would be no resulting mold or other issues like rot.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> I don't know what you think is an experiment, an air gap behind siding was done on Victorian houses and can be found in those old big houses that still have the original siding in good shape.
> Window and door pans came out of northern Europe 25 or 30 years ago, so it is tried and true.
> Windows leak and sweat causing all kinds of problems and can be limited to the trim around them and you can double the life of a window that leaks a little.
> If the window in question on this thread had been done with a pan, the leak would not have been detected and it would not be doing damage to the framing the insulation or the wall board. There fore there would be no resulting mold or other issues like rot.


So...a bunch of "what-ifs" vs. actually just fixing the problem. 

Comparisons that have little to no context of application here for the following reasons:

Humidity should be controlled at the drywall layer
This ISN'T wood siding, its and engineer product
I wasn't NOT recommending window and door pans, just the opposite
Windows do leak, and water is wet. None of those facts necessitate a rainscreen wall if the other parts and wall construction is properly deployed
Thanks for clarifying the obvious on the pan, hence my reference to it from before
Again, I see no logical defense for the rainscreen being the solution here or being a necessity for construction in the VAST majority of US climate zones. 

Old Victorian homes preserved wood siding because they leaked air like sieves, dried out as a result, and were from old growth timber strand. Nothing of that has to do with the application or products here. 

Simple put, if the following things have been done, this never would have happened:

Proper application and seal of the twin DH mullion
Sill flashing or pan that is closed corner, turned up the wall, and terminated on top of the WRB
Drip cap with closed corners that extended up behind the head piece of siding and out and over the window
Jamb side "step flashing" that ties into the flashing tape and is notched to terminate on the last piece of siding under the window
No seams above of below the window
If any 2 of those things was done...this never would have leaked. All a rainscreen wall would do is cover for crap window/siding work and allow the water to drain out. We have done a ton of Hardie and LP homes...none on rainscreen and ZERO leakers.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> So...a bunch of "what-ifs" vs. actually just fixing the problem.
> 
> Comparisons that have little to no context of application here for the following reasons:
> 
> ...


My comment was a rainscreened window. so simply put, you read rainscreened wall instead of my rainscreen window. The discription you wrote matches the video I posted. So I am not sure what your problem is.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> My comment was a rainscreened window. so simply put, you read rainscreened wall instead of my rainscreen window. The discription you wrote matches the video I posted. So I am not sure what your problem is.


Actually, the video you reference he says:

"We rainscreen our houses here"
I don't have any problem, except that we call it flashing. I don't know of ANYONE in the states that calls what he did on that video "rainscreening". That would be flashing, albeit I find issues with what he did as well, in our world. The idea of "rainscreening" is typically associated with some sort of air gap or "screening" that allows for air movement and water to exit the shell. 

Seeing as what he did is just flashing and he is applying peel and stick to the windows, there is NO air movement or "screening" aspect to his construction. 



Nealtw said:


> If the winders were installed with a drain plane that leak would never bother anything, water would go down between the siding and wrap and out the bottom.
> 2011-06-03 - Installing Rainscreen for our windows - YouTube


I hate that you are making me pick this guy's video apart and perhaps he has changed application given that the video is about 10 years old, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt here. But if you are going to post it as something current, I suggest you get a newer and more up to date video. The immediately visible issues are:

WRB wrapped into the jamb. Not a fan and if any water gets behind the WRB, its not in the home.
Not knowing what product he was using and using an asphaltic based material vs. butyl. Big no-no now. 
No slope to the RO sill. If anything, it looks sloped inward.
Not using a systems set of components where they are designed to work together. Nothing about that tape is going to want to stick to felt paper with any degree of longevity
No discussion of a drip cap
Its so easy to do right these day and even before the siders get there.

Scrap of a section of WRB below the RO extending beyond either side
Bevel the sill with cedar
Flexible sill pan or rigid sill pan
Back caulk the nailing flange
Shim the window out of the pan
Nail off the window after square, plumb, level
Foam the window and air seal, be sure to not go beyond the pan and block drainage
Jamb flashing tape to the sheathing
Head flashing tape over the jamb tape
Inverse Y-cut on the WRB
Tape WRB to window
Drip cap under the WRB and over the window



Nealtw said:


> And when you do it properly. it is called, rainscreening.


Nope



Nealtw said:


> You are on a thread where the person has a leak damaging his house and you know how it is done and you say it is not needed.
> You should be running a the grid in Texas, you would fit right in.


Nothing personal here was there? I already told the poster what was needed and what the likely source of moisture was. I also mentioned proper flashing an application.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Actually, the video you reference he says:
> 
> "We rainscreen our houses here"
> I don't have any problem, except that we call it flashing. I don't know of ANYONE in the states that calls what he did on that video "rainscreening". That would be flashing, albeit I find issues with what he did as well, in our world. The idea of "rainscreening" is typically associated with some sort of air gap or "screening" that allows for air movement and water to exit the shell.
> ...


Is there a way he can stop the leak with out pulling it?


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Without seeing it...tough to say. 

It's very likely, if its from the mullion, that it could easily be stopped with some flashing and sealant.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Without seeing it...tough to say.
> 
> It's very likely, if its from the mullion, that it could easily be stopped with some flashing and sealant.


When we do the window pan we also have to set the window on 1/4" spacers for drainage. I have seen one side slider break at the bottom of the center post. who ever installed the window only put a spacer under the corners and when some one sat on the open window it pushed the bottom away from that center piece.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> When we do the window pan we also have to set the window on 1/4" spacers for drainage. I have seen one side slider break at the bottom of the center post. who ever installed the window only put a spacer under the corners and when some one sat on the open window it pushed the bottom away from that center piece.


Good stuff.

The plastic Horseshoe shims work great here and provide nice and even support for the full depth of the window. Their inorganic nature is also good because they will never degrade or swell. I have seen shims in a door pan swell and knock the door out of level/square.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> The plastic Horseshoe shims work great here and provide nice and even support for the full depth of the window. Their inorganic nature is also good because they will never degrade or swell. I have seen shims in a door pan swell and knock the door out of level/square.


We get bags of them with the window delivery why anyone would just use two is beyond me. we put then ever 6" we also put 1/8" shims behind the bottom flange to let water out.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Usually the easiest stuff is missed.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> Usually the easiest stuff is missed.


Our inspectors look as part of the sheathing inspection, not sure why that was missed.


----------

