# Need Patio Advice - Pictures Included



## bradnailer

If it were me, I'd build a deck off your covered patio. With railings and planters and such, it would look a ton better than a concrete slab.


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## kyassassin

bradnailer said:


> If it were me, I'd build a deck off your covered patio. With railings and planters and such, it would look a ton better than a concrete slab.


I'm open to a deck as well. What do you think a 10x22 foot deck would cost?


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## Kap

Somewhere between $2,000 an $20,000.


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## bradnailer

kyassassin said:


> I'm open to a deck as well. What do you think a 10x22 foot deck would cost?


Depends on the material you use but you can make a general estimate yourself. Draw out the deck design, and draw up a bill of materials then just run to the lumber yard and get prices on the material. Not sure where you live but the correct way to install the footings vary in the north versus the south. If you are mechanically inclined and don't mind working hard, a deck project is one that a homeowner could tackle.

As far as deck construction and design, either cruise the internet or buy a book that gives you the design requirements.


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## beranbr

A paver patio or pad is definitely possible. And there is many different ways you can go about it. You can build a raised patio up to the level of you existing cover patio, or you can build a patio that is raised on one end with retaining wall blocks, or you can dig out the patio with a retaining wall on the high end.

Option 1 (Raised patio to existing patio level) 10'x22'

Retaining wall: ~50 square face feet. Prices vary from $12-30 per square face feet
Caps: 32-40 linear feet. Prices vary from $7-20 per linear foot
Geo-textile: ~300 square feet. Price is about $0.30 per square foot
Pavers: 220-240 square feet. Prices vary from $3-7 per square foot for concrete pavers
Crush and Run: (this is the base material for the walls and pavers) ~22-25 tons. Check with you local quarry, but ~$20-30 per ton
Coarse concrete sand: 1 ton. Same as the crush and run gravel
Masonry glue for caps: 1-2 tubes: ~$5-7 per tube

Option 2 is going to be quite a bit less because you are going to use a lot less wall blocks and crush and run.

I were to hire a contractor to do this job, option 1 would probably run you any where from $5,500 to $8,000 depending on the materials you use. Options 2 and 3 are definitely going to be less and if you do it yourself....a whole lot less.


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## readandpost rosie

*a deck!*

i vote for a deck, as deep (you say 10ft) as you can go without dwarfing the yard. (put your grill on it)
do the entire length of the house.
its like adding another room.

GREAT for resale!


rosie


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## Brickie

> What would you do in my situation? What are my options and the approximate costs of each? How difficult do you think each option would be for a DIYer?


I would go with a hardscape patio. It will look 1000 times better than a deck. Prices do vary, depending on the product line. I would definitely hire a pro.


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## kyassassin

I decided to do this myself using a slightly sunken or recessed patio. I am going to use patio pavers. Also, I am going to have a small 2 foot retaining wall on the left side and a similar retaining wall on the right side. I will have a very small retaining wall abour 4 feet long on the side parallel to the house.

I am having to dig 27" at the tallest side and 7" at the lowest side to account for the slope of the yard. This is a huge amount of dirt that I am removing by hand.

The final dimensions will be 13' x 9' including the retaining walls. As you can see I am still digging.

I'll try to post pictures later today. Please let me know what tips/advice/criticism you have. Thanks.

Edit: Pics Uploaded


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## 47_47

Make sure you slope this properly and put in a drain or 2.


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## kyassassin

47_47 said:


> Make sure you slope this properly and put in a drain or 2.


I am going to take my time with the sloping. I realize that it is essential to getting rid of water. It will be sloped to the lowest point obviously (the far right corner away from the house).

Where would you put the drains? Do you think I need french drains behind the short 2 foot retaining walls or will crushed rock be enough?

If you put a drain through the retaining wall how is that done? How far out into the yard do I need to run the drain after going through the wall? Are "weep" drains adequate or would you use something like PVC?

The final patio won't be as deep as it looks in the picture. I still have to add 4-5" of crushed rock base, 1" of sand and 2.5" of paver patio for a total of 7-8".

Finally, do you think I'm crazy building a patio like this?


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## 47_47

Where are you located? Do you get snow/ice?



kyassassin said:


> Finally, do you think I'm crazy building a patio like this?


Just my 2¢, I would not build this, because of the ~2' drop (fall hazard), removing the grade from the foundation (water intrusion), possible frost movement of the short wall and wind driven debris will accumulate in the deep area.
Do you have an elevation drawing? Instead of digging down, could you raise the patio so the top is 6-7" below your door threshold, a slope of 1/8-1/4" per foot is adequate for surface drainage and not noticeable. Consider a tiered patio. 

BUT, this is your house and if this is what you want we need more info.


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## kyassassin

Thanks for the opinion. I really appreciate it. I live in KY so I have freezing temps 3-5 months a year.

I am thinking that you may be correct and that I am crazy. I really didn't realize what I was getting myself into until I had dug the hole - which is why I posted on here.

I think I may just build up the retaining wall on all 3 sides and not dig down as far. 

Also I am really getting worried about the water retention of this project. I can picture it as a big tub of water.

I'm kicking myself right now.


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## 47_47

Don't be too hard on yourself, you've just practiced digging.:wink:

If the soil you removed looks fairly good, I'd use it to fill in low spots. Make sure when you fill in your excavation you compact it in 2-4" lifts to give your patio a solid base.

When rethinking your design, consider adding electrical outlets and landscape lighting that can be controlled from the house.

Good luck


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## kyassassin

Swallowing my pride and removing my own shoe from my ass.

Just bought 70 retaining blocks and 18 caps for the retaining wall. Now I just need to get some sand and rock delivered. 

I'm going to with the wall on the low end and back fill it to the high end. I'm going to need to fill that damn hole/mistake first though.

:furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:


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## DangerMouse

just keep digging and put in a pool...... Po)

DM


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## beranbr

When I am looking at the picture that looks straight at the house, I am assuming the long side closest to the camera is where it is 7" deep...am I correct by saying this. If this is the case, you can simply raise the patio up a bit by adding a course or so along this side. This will get you patio up above the grade and easily allow you to control where you want the water to flow. As for the retaining walls on the side, lay the base course then lay a 4" perforated behind the wall and then backfill with #57 stone, fill the cores of the block as well if they have them. The drain pipes need to be vented to daylight, I would run the one on the right (look at the house) down past the patio and have it come out of the ground some where down hill of the patio....same for the one on the left. 

If you do not want to raise the patio and want it to be sunken, you need to put a drain in the patio. You can put it in the center of the patio and slope all of the sides to it, you need about a 2% slope. 

Here is a picture of a patio I recently completed with a drain in the center of the patio


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## beranbr

BTW, What are you backfilling with?


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## kyassassin

beranbr said:


> BTW, What are you backfilling with?


I'm re-doing the whole dig and going with a raised patio. I simply don't have the expertise to do a sunken patio and can't afford to have it done for me professionally. Didn't realize how daunting it would be till I was standing in the hole.

I am going to backfill with the native dirt/clay compacted down every few inches as I re-fill and then will use about 4" of Class V rock and 1" of paver patio sand. I am going to build the wall and then fill to about 7" of the top to allow for the Class V, sand and pavers.

I'm going to get going on refilling that hole later today.


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## beranbr

kyassassin, personally I would highly recommend not backfilling with the soil you just took out of the hole. It is going to be a tall task to get it compacted correctly. If it was me I would use the same base rock you are going to use. If you do not get it compacted correctly you are almost guaranteed to have setting in your pavers and walls, which is not something you want. Clay has the ability to compact, but it retains an enormous amount of water and is almost guaranteed to settle. You are also going to need to use some geo-textile fabric as a separation fabric to keep your base material separate from the earth.

Why not just complete the dig in the manner you have done so and then use the retaining wall blocks to raise the patio level slightly above the existing grade and then backfill the whole thing with base rock. Yes, it will be more expensive, but you have have much better results and a patio that will be there forever. 

What you are doing right now is not as hard as you think, it just takes a little more planning. If you need some guidance and tips you can contact me and I would be glad to help you out...I own a hardscaping company btw.


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## kyassassin

Crap. What in the hell have I done? 

Could I fill in part of the hole with the soil and use part of the rock? I have ordered 2 tons of dense grade aggregate #57 (that's what the quarry man recommended) to be delivered. The guy estimated that I would need about 1.75 tons for the project so I'll have a little bit extra. Should I just get more? It is only about $9 a ton.

I realize that it might settle a little bit but I also worry that the rock would do the same.


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## beranbr

The foundation for the wall blocks and the base for the pavers should be 3/4" modified stone (aka crush and run) and you need #57 stone for drain stone behind the retaining walls. If you use crush and run for the wall fountation and the paver base and you tamp it with a machine plate compactor in 2-3" lifts and you lightly wet it you will have no settling. 

Using soil for the backfill for pavers will definitely result in settling and probably more than you think. Have you ever seen a trench dug for utilities such as power, pipes, ect.....? When the trench is backfilled with dirt and compacted with a jumping jack tamper you almost always still have settling and that is with no weight on it, so imagine putting 4" of rock, 1" of bedding sand, and then the pavers.

You can do your patio the way you were doing it, suken down. But you just need to add a drain some where on the patio to allow the water to drain. It looks like you have a good slope going from left to right is you are looking at the house, so you can easily drain the water away. With a little bit of planning and some patients you can have this problem fixed.

If you are willing and can afford the cost of raising the patio slightly, that is probably the best option and can easily be done, you are just going to need more base rock, and maybe a few more retaing wall blocks for the side that runs parallel to the house. 

If you want, take some more pictures and give me some meassurements and I can figure up what exactly you need and tell you exactly how to do it. Truely it is not that hard, it just takes some hard manual labor. My e-mail address is [email protected] .


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## kyassassin

So if I were to fill this back in with the native soil how would you rec that I do it? Right now I am thinking that I could fill a couple of inches and add a little water and then compact it down with the manual stomper that I bought. 

I might try to call and see how much a plate compacter would cost for the week.


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## LoneStarGuitar

kyassassin said:


> I dug a lot.
> 
> Edit: Pics Uploaded


 
holy smokes. That is a lot to do by hand.
hmm..
you want to install pavers??

my first suggestion is to contact your local stone yard and get a few cubic yard of aggregate to use as base.tamp that stuff in as well as possible. 

given the slope of the yard, you might consider building a small retaining wall out of Pavestone's "Windsor" block on the right side of these photos to bring that side up to grade and still look pretty sharp. hell, terrace it and you might have a couple of small planters by the end ofit as well. 

Looks good, you have a great start. Keep those ibuprofen handy!


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## LoneStarGuitar

kyassassin said:


> So if I were to fill this back in with the native soil how would you rec that I do it? Right now I am thinking that I could fill a couple of inches and add a little water and then compact it down with the manual stomper that I bought.
> 
> I might try to call and see how much a plate compacter would cost for the week.


 
I needed one for work last summer. 
IIRC, it was around 80 bucks a day for a walk behind packer. They can beat the snot out of you but they certainly make the job easier. 
If you have a Sunbelt (formerly Nations Rent) nearby, call em up.

*edit* 
at my work, when we backfill,, we typically do it in 6" lifts.


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## drtbk4ever

Hey KyAssassin, stop beating yourself up.

Personally I would take a little time to review all your options. ie. What do you need to do to put in the lower patio and retaining wall (foundation, drainage?). What you would need to do for a raised patio? ETC... 

Whatever you do, don't rush into making a decision until you know all the details.

I do think BeranBr is giving you some very sound advice on the backfilling. I wouldn't put a patio on ground that is backfilled with soil. If anything, backfill it with rock as indicated by Beranbr.

Good luck with this and be sure to keep us updated with photos and such. This is going to look fantastic when you get it done.


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## kyassassin

Thanks for all the replies. I think I have found a solution that will work better and solve my problems.

First, I had a buddy come over tonight and he and I filled the hole almost completely up (probably over 2/3rds full) with the dirt I removed. We tamped it down the best we could.

Now for the solution --- tell me what you think.

I am going to shift the entire patio to the right so that it is directly in front of the covered patio (and NOT the bay window). This will put it on solid ground and not over the ground that I just repacked. I'll be able to re-grade the packed soil so that it is level with the top of the new paver patio. 

The patio will have a wall around at least the right side and side parallel to the house. The left side might also have a small wall, if needed. I'll build some stairs eventually off the patio onto the lawn.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I am reading everything you say and am open to further ideas/criticisms. 

Let me know what you think.


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## kyassassin

The hole has been filled. Soil re-graded. 

Ready to dig for porch version 2.0. Porch will go directly to the right of the filled in hole. Grade will slope down to the base of the patio or retaining wall on the left side of the patio.


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## drtbk4ever

KyAssassin, check out this thread on a guy who did an outdoor BBQ. I think that would be a nice addition to your patio. Maybe with a pergola over top.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/outdoor-bbq-set-up-38636/


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## DIYtestdummy

kyassassin said:


> Swallowing my pride and removing my own shoe from my ass.


 
Reminds me of some colorful Kentucky jokes a buddy of mine from KY told me. I still have not tried Kentucky (KY) jelly! :no:

I'm watching this one - I really want to see how you tackle that wicked slope.


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## kyassassin

Well, I put in the patio.

2 friends and I worked 8 hours today in the mud and rain to get this thing finished.

We started by re-grading the slope putting most of the dirt from the top of the hill to the bottom of the hill.

Then we used a vibrating plate compacter.

Then I laid about 4 inches of gravel for the base.

Then the compacter again.

Then we used about an inch of leveling sand for the pavers. We laid a little over 100 square feet of Reading Rock pavers.

http://www.readingrock.com/hardscapes/product.aspx?productid=3
Hampton Blend










Next I used the paver retaining border nailed every 3rd or 4th hole to line the edges.

Then I laid a little more of the leveling sand on top of the pavers.

Then the compacter again.

Finally I temporarily laid the sod along the edge of the patio. Along the highest edge I am going to use retaining block to build a small planter bed. 

Overall I am very happy. The patio have about a 1" slope from high to low both left to right and top to bottom.

I am glad that this nightmare is at least a little closer to being completed.

(View from the porch --- it was way too muddy to get a yard pic after I had cleaned up. The pavers are actually a brown/earthtone color. The gray that you see is the leveling sand that I tried to get in the cracks with the compacter. I'll sweep that off when it dries and give the patio a good hand cleaning before I seal it with a glossy seal)


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## kyassassin

Wasn't able to do much today as it was still very wet. I was able to clean off the patio with the pressure sprayer for a few pics. The week I am going to start on a planter bed retaining wall on both sides of the highest corner of the patio and eventually I think I am going to add some stairs.

So far so good... This thing is rock solid and there isn't one paver that is wobbly.


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## DecksEtc

You need to get some brick sand or polymeric sand in between those pavers or their going to move around on you.


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## kyassassin

DecksEtc said:


> You need to get some brick sand or polymeric sand in between those pavers or their going to move around on you.


I have 2 bags of beige supersand waiting to go. Its too wet today to get it done --- I'll probably get it done tomorrow after I give them another day to dry.


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## kyassassin

Worked my ass off today after work and was able to get the retaining wall/planter finished. 

Used some sort of super human strength glue between each rock. I'm really happy with how it turned out. 

Still too wet today to use the supersand. However I have 2 bags of beige waiting to go tomorrow.

Pictures were taken just before dark.


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## kyassassin

Worked a little more on the patio today. Not sure that the stairs are going to work though. I'm getting pretty close to the patio underbelly while digging for the stairs and I'm worried that I will compromise the foundation of the patio if I dig any closer. 

So I am left with a 4-5" gap between the stairs and the patio. I think that I am going to fill that gap in with some tightly packed dirt and plant some hardy ground cover in that gap. 

If anyone else has any suggestions I am open as I don't know what to do here...

Also added the gatorsand (polymeric sand) to the joints. It was still pretty wet and soft when night came. Hopefully it will setup tomorrow. 

Filled the planter with topsoil as well.


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## Scuba_Dave

Looks good
But I would have gone all the way to the end
Bigger is better & less grass to mow :laughing:
10x10 isn't very big when you get a table, chairs & grille out there

I would go level to the patio with the stairs


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## kyassassin

Scuba_Dave said:


> Looks good
> But I would have gone all the way to the end
> Bigger is better & less grass to mow :laughing:
> 10x10 isn't very big when you get a table, chairs & grille out there
> 
> I would go level to the patio with the stairs


I hear you. I think that I am going to extend the planter box all the way to the front porch. I have enough retaining wall blocks leftover.

I am also going to build a grill pad extension off the patio to the left in front of the bay window. My new grill will go there and open up the patio for a table and chairs. 

I can't go level with the patio to the stairs for 2 reasons.

1. It would require me to remove the plastic paver edging so that I could get it flush with the edge of the wall.
2. I don't want to dig immediately next to the patio because I am worried that I will weaken the base in the process and have the patio collapse in that area.

I am thinking right now of smashing in some dirt in that gap and laying a strip of sod back down to have a level area of grass between the patio and the stairs (again, about 4-5" or so).

If you have any other thoughts let me know.


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## DecksEtc

kyassassin said:


> I hear you. I think that I am going to extend the planter box all the way to the front porch. I have enough retaining wall blocks leftover.
> 
> *I am also going to build a grill pad extension off the patio to the left in front of the bay window. My new grill will go there and open up the patio for a table and chairs. *
> I can't go level with the patio to the stairs for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. It would require me to remove the plastic paver edging so that I could get it flush with the edge of the wall.
> 2. I don't want to dig immediately next to the patio because I am worried that I will weaken the base in the process and have the patio collapse in that area.
> 
> I am thinking right now of smashing in some dirt in that gap and laying a strip of sod back down to have a level area of grass between the patio and the stairs (again, about 4-5" or so).
> 
> If you have any other thoughts let me know.



Be careful of how close you put the BBQ to your house. I've seen more than my fair share of melted siding.


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## kyassassin

Thanks Decks. I think that it is far enough away.

I did quite a bit today after work.

I extended the retaining wall planter to the covered porch.

I finished the stairs. I am very happy with how they turned out. I then used some of the polymeric Gatorsand and filled in the cracks.

Then I added a grill pad at the far left corner of the patio. I used some leftover pavers that I had on top of a little compacted rock that I had left over. I filled in the gaps with a little more gatorsand.

Then I replaced the sod. Did a little watering and cleanup.

The pics below show the result of the effort today. Let me know what you think...


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## kyassassin

Well, it is finally done. It ended up being the perfect size and I am really happy how it turned out.

Let me know what you think. Your comments have been a HUGE help and I thank you for them.


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## Scuba_Dave

Nice, bringing the wall al the way over to the exisiting house gives it a better look. Now you just need some plants :thumbsup:


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## kyassassin

Finally got around to finishing my patio. 

I planted a bunch of plants as you can see. I have creeping phlox along the edge of the wall which I hope will eventually start to hang over the side. I added a Red Select Japanese Maple to the right of the patio and have a new Crimson Queen in the container to the left of the planter bed. 

All in all I love how it turned out.


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## Luis C.

I'm planning on embarking on a similar project in the coming months, and just wanted to say great job.
I can only hope my patio turns out as well 

(without the giant hole at the start though)


Good job, it looks great.


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## kyassassin

Luis C. said:


> I'm planning on embarking on a similar project in the coming months, and just wanted to say great job.
> I can only hope my patio turns out as well
> 
> (without the giant hole at the start though)
> 
> 
> Good job, it looks great.


Thanks! Just remember whenever possible to build up instead of digging down when dealing with a paver patio on a slope! As you can see I learned the hard way...


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## Luis C.

I'll keep that in mind.


I do have a slight slope to contend with - but nothing like a 2 foot drop (maybe 1/2 a foot at the most).

Once I get my plan together I'll make sure to post a thread here to get some feedback so that hopefully I can avoid that sort of thing.

But I can absolutely understand how that happens....it's taking all my willpower to stop myself from just running back there with a shovel right now and going to town.


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