# One Breaker Trips Another Breaker



## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

Good afternoon, I have a new house in which the Electrician went MIA after i paid him and i am having to sort out a few issues. Everyone here has helped me troubleshoot the other issues successfully.

My issue is that i have one breaker that trips when another one is turned on. In the breaker panel these two breakers are next to each other. One Powers the kitchen as well as the three lights and a couple of plugs in a hall way and eat in kitchen that the "trouble breaker" powers. as long as i leave the trouble breaker off there is never any issue. but when i turn on the trouble breaker it trips the kitchen breaker.

What i have tried. I turned off all breakers in the house except the trouble breaker and learned that it powers those 3 lights and two plugs i mentioned in paragraph above.

My options are: kept the trouble breaker off and forget about it(what i have been doing) or locate the problem and have the each breaker power each circuit correctly.

One tip. I have fixed several issues that my electrician left for me, one of which was a crossed wire. It was a very easy fix once it was located and a few half cut wires inside light switches that caused intermittent issues. I am thinking that a wire is crossed somewhere and i have an idea where to start but i feel that i need some direction.


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## psgama (Jan 30, 2016)

Do you have 15A receptacles in the kitchen? I bet the second breaker is for split receptacles and the tab was never broken off between them. Shut off the two breakers and pull out the receptacles that shut off when the breaker trips. If there is 3 wires attached, break the tab in between on the bronzed side (small slotted side) of the receptacles.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

Could the two circuits be sharing a neutral ?


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

psgama said:


> Do you have 15A receptacles in the kitchen? I bet the second breaker is for split receptacles and the tab was never broken off between them. Shut off the two breakers and pull out the receptacles that shut off when the breaker trips. If there is 3 wires attached, break the tab in between on the bronzed side (small slotted side) of the receptacles.


Im reasonably certain they are 15 amp. am i looking for a completed or unbroken tab on all plugs and not just gfci plugs? @dmxtothemax thats what im trying to determine. Ill look for that as well.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You have two cross connected circuits. Now the problem is going to be to find the cross connection.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

GFCI outlets do not have the bonding jumper. If the Sparky took the money and ran. Did you let the jurisdiction know where you live about what happened?

If he is union or not, the local union hall is a good source for them to find someone who is willing to help straighten out the mess. They may even use it for training an apprentice and eat the cost of fixing a bad end result.


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

Some electricians like to use quad breakers to satisfy handle tie requirements and increase mark up. If the two breakers are internally joined, a ground fault on the "trouble circuit" will trip both breakers. Post a picture of the two breakers that are tripping.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Arrow3030 said:


> Some electricians like to use quad breakers to satisfy handle tie requirements and increase mark up. If the two breakers are internally joined, a ground fault on the "trouble circuit" will trip both breakers. Post a picture of the two breakers that are tripping.


Quads are very rare to see these days in residential. You see more simgle space Tandoms where they have a handle on the top tied to the next handle above it for MWBC.


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

Okay Greg. If the breaker has an internal trip for two line to neutral circuits, a ground fault on either circuit will trip both breakers.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

I will post pictures of the breakers but I bought the breakers(supplied materials) so they are likely not quad breakers. Its likely a cross connected circuit as Joed mentioned while i leave the possibility open that it not that. would anyone know how i would go about locating the problem? I have a pen tester, and I though about trying to find it by turning off all breakers but the trouble circuit and see if i can find the end circuit and then cut power and look at the wires. any thoughts?

as for a union, there is no such here that im aware of. Im in houston, tx vacinity and my home is rural where there are no permits required except septic and building permit. no inspections done by county other than septic.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Arrow3030 said:


> Okay Greg. If the breaker has an internal trip for two line to neutral circuits, a ground fault on either circuit will trip both breakers.


We always hope, as long as the breaker is not old and frozen in place.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Do not use the Touch testers. They are guilty of False alerts. Use an actual voltage tester that shows 120/240/480. Non-contact are nice when checking for a bad outler or switch. Not great when trying to figure out wiring issues.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You have a cross connection between two hot wires on the different breakers. You need to search for it and remove it.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

@joed, i feel that your suggestion is likely the problem. I have already repaired several issues that was nothing more than swapping wires. the biggest problem was finding the issue. do you have any tips on locating the problem at hand?


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## psgama (Jan 30, 2016)

Yes. Pull all the receptacles and lights that have power when the first breaker is on. Check them all for strange looking wiring. If there is nothing strange, then you need to start disconnecting wiring and find out where the crossover is happening.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

Someone correct me if im wrong but i had an idea to power on the trouble breaker and power off the first breaker and start checking for power with my pen tester at the outlets that are powered off? check there first?


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

gregzoll said:


> We always hope, as long as the breaker is not old and frozen in place.



You do know what internal common trip is, right?


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## Arrow3030 (Apr 19, 2015)

I missed that you can have one or the other on with no trip but not both at the same time. This is almost certainly a line to line short. 
You essentially have one breaker controlling/ carrying two circuits. I would guess that the kitchen is meant to be it's own circuit. Start with the boxes nearest the panel. There could be a three wire, black red white, that you are looking for.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

outburst said:


> Someone correct me if im wrong but i had an idea to power on the trouble breaker and power off the first breaker and start checking for power with my pen tester at the outlets that are powered off? check there first?


Do you have some receptacle that go dead when one of the breakers goes off or is everything live when either breaker is on? If some are dead then that messes up my theory of two hots cross connected. If they are cross connected then either breaker should power everything.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

I will be troubleshooting this issue the first of this week, ill post my findings.


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## partner (Mar 26, 2015)

psgama said:


> Do you have 15A receptacles in the kitchen? I bet the second breaker is for split receptacles and the tab was never broken off between them. Shut off the two breakers and pull out the receptacles that shut off when the breaker trips. If there is 3 wires attached, break the tab in between on the bronzed side (small slotted side) of the receptacles.


Many years ago I helped my sister rearrange furniture in a child's bedroom. The house was quite a few years old. She plugged a lamp into an outlet and turned it on and the TV on another circuit stopped working. If IRC, the lamp stayed on. It was exactly what psgama described above, tab not broken off.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

An update to my situation. I removed all switches and plugs from electrical boxes and took pictures. I did notice that the problem breaker powers also the dishwasher as well as the 3 light fixtures and one wall plug. the dishwisher is in the kitchen and the other fixtures are in the eat in kitchen areas adjacent to the kitchen. the dishwisher appears to be on the end of the circuit with only one wire in the box. that plug has one side tab broken and the other is complete. im not sure if thats a problem. everything appeared to be in order but im not a master electrician either. here are two pics of the wall plug at the end of circuit....the first 2 are both sides of the plug for the dishwasher, the middle left is the where the power comes in and controls a light and continues to the plug in the middle right. the last 2 are pics both sides of dishwasher plug and garbage disposer plug.


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## cuba_pete (Aug 27, 2014)

Pix of the breakers, please.

Also, that switch isn't quite wired correctly. There shouldn't be two wires under that terminal on the right, should be pigtailed:


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> Pix of the breakers, please.
> 
> Also, that switch isn't quite wired correctly. There shouldn't be two wires under that terminal on the right, should be pigtailed:


ill take a pic of the breaker box tonite when im there and post it and do you think that switch not being wired correctly is my problem?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The cut tab on the last plug looks correct correct. It would give constant power to the dishwasher and switched power to the disposer.
Now you need to find the other end of that cable. I don't see any red wires in any of the other pictures.

Two wires under one screw is an issue. It may or may not be the problem. Code does not allow two wires under a screw like that.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

joed said:


> The cut tab on the last plug looks correct correct. It would give constant power to the dishwasher and switched power to the disposer.
> Now you need to find the other end of that cable. I don't see any red wires in any of the other pictures.
> 
> Two wires under one screw is an issue. It may or may not be the problem. Code does not allow two wires under a screw like that.


@ joed and cuba_pete, those two wires that are incorrect that need to be pigtailed were once a continuous wire with insulation removed and it must have broken and someone must have temporarily wired it that way and forgot it. i know this because the other problems i fixed i found a continous wire with insulation removed and looped around the screw.

I had an idea of getting in the attic with only the trouble circuit on and follow the hot wire with a pen tester to see where it goes. Also, i checked all the plugs of the kitchen circuit when unpowered but with the trouble circuit on with a pen tester and no power to any of the plugs except the dishwasher. I will pigtail those wires when i find the issue.


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

joed said:


> Do you have some receptacle that go dead when one of the breakers goes off or is everything live when either breaker is on? If some are dead then that messes up my theory of two hots cross connected. If they are cross connected then either breaker should power everything.


when the kitchen breaker is on all the kitchen and eat in dining area has power and works perfectly. if i turn on the problem breaker it trips the kitchen breaker and then i have no power there but eat in kitchen has power including the dishwasher in the kitchen.


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## cuba_pete (Aug 27, 2014)

outburst said:


> ill take a pic of the breaker box tonite when im there and post it and do you think that switch not being wired correctly is my problem?


No, I just noticed that from the pix that you did post.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Are either of these breakers GFCI or AFCI? 
It doesn't sounds right that part of the circuit comes active with one breaker and another part with a different breaker. That would seem to indicate two separate hots. A crossed neutral would however cause a GFCI to trip.
Is there a box that has parts of it active with both breakers?


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## outburst (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks to all of you I have fixed the problem. It turns out that one of the light switches was receiving power from both breakers or circuits. After 3 hours of troubleshooting i was able to close the "trouble circuit" which continued to the light switch. I disconnected that wire at both ends, capped the wires and pushed them to the back of the box Now everything works and i was able to label a few breakers that previously were unlabelled. Below is the pic where the heart of the problem was. Both of those wires that needed to be pigtailled wire hot when both breakers were on.


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