# Pigtails inside a Panel



## Gusaroo (Mar 6, 2008)

Newbie question from Connecticut:

I have two instances in my GE panel where multiple wires have been pigtailed so one lead can be connected. 

-On one side, two grounds are pigtailed, so one lead can be connected to a single neutral ground bus screw.

-On other side, two blacks are pigtailed , so one lead can be connected to a breaker.

I believe this occurred when the old panel was replaced/updated to modern breakers. I have no more open screw connections on either neutral bus. Is this a problem or against code? I would assume this is a better alternative than to have two wires being secured under one bus screw.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thx


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Gusaroo said:


> Newbie question from Connecticut:
> 
> I have two instances in my GE panel where multiple wires have been pigtailed so one lead can be connected.
> 
> ...


As long as everything goes where it is supposed to go, then you are OK. You mention the "neutral ground bus". Do you mean the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar? If so, is this a main breaker panel, and is it the first disconnecting means for your service?

InPhase277


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

As long as your breakers aren't tripping and you don't have two wires under one binding screw, you should be okay.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

jcalvin said:


> As long as your breakers aren't tripping and you don't have two wires under one binding screw, you should be okay.


I hope you're joking.


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## Gusaroo (Mar 6, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Do you mean the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar?


yes, they are



InPhase277 said:


> If so, is this a main breaker panel, and is it the first disconnecting means for your service?


Yes it is the main (and only) panel in my home

Sorry if I am getting some of the terms wrong. I am not an electrician, just and avid DIYer...


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## Gusaroo (Mar 6, 2008)

I spent some time and did some serious searches on this board, found a few things.

1) Its OK to connect multiple (up to three) grounds under one binding screw. Check with panel manufacturer's instructions.
2) Only one white/neutral wire per binding screw.
3) Its ok to pigtail wires together within the box as long as there is enough room...

Your thoughts?


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> I hope you're joking.


 
Whats the difference of putting two circuits under a wirenut with a pigtail and running them to a breaker than daisy chaining two rooms together in an outlet box?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Gusaroo said:


> I spent some time and did some serious searches on this board, found a few things.
> 
> 1) Its OK to connect multiple (up to three) grounds under one binding screw. Check with panel manufacturer's instructions.
> 2) Only one white/neutral wire per binding screw.
> ...


You should be good to go. Sounds like you had too many circuits but not enough spaces to handle all of them. Pigtailing the grounds is fine. Or landing them under one screw. Pigtailing the hots is OK too, just as long as the two combined circuits don't overload the breaker. But under no circumstances should a neutral be pigtailed.

InPhase277


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## Gusaroo (Mar 6, 2008)

Thx InPhase!!!

This forum is terrific.:thumbup:


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## canadaclub (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm with Calvin on this one. I would never have thought pigtails in the panel would pass muster. If the retaining screw of the breaker has a termination (squeeze point) on either side of the binding screw, or at least accommodate 2 14g wires, wouldn't that seem safer??


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## Gusaroo (Mar 6, 2008)

Does anyone know off hand if the GE powermark gold tm20dc panel 100amp have squeeze points? I didn't inspect it that closely, I think it just has a screw that tightens against the wire itself...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Some breakers like Square D are listed for use with 2 conductors.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

jcalvin said:


> Whats the difference of putting two circuits under a wirenut with a pigtail and running them to a breaker than daisy chaining two rooms together in an outlet box?


I just though your determination of a good install was if the breakers weren't tripping was just a little off. And also, that many breakers and bus bars are rated for more than one wire(excluding the grounded conductor).


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

canadaclub said:


> I'm with Calvin on this one. I would never have thought pigtails in the panel would pass muster. If the retaining screw of the breaker has a termination (squeeze point) on either side of the binding screw, or at least accommodate 2 14g wires, wouldn't that seem safer??


Splices in a panels are addressed in 312.8. Conductors shall not fill any portion of the wiring space to more than 40% of the cross sectional are of that space. Splices and taps shall not fill the wiring space more than 75% of that space.

So one or two s isn't going to hurt. Especially since I can't think of any breaker right off the top of my head other than the Square D Homeline that accepts more than one conductor under it's binding plate.

InPhase277


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Gusaroo said:


> Does anyone know off hand if the GE powermark gold tm20dc panel 100amp have squeeze points? I didn't inspect it that closely, I think it just has a screw that tightens against the wire itself...


The breaker is required to be marked in some fashion for how many wires it can take. I don't think I have ever seen a GE breaker that was rated for anything but one wire. I know that Square D Homeline breakers are, but I'm almost positive GEs aren't. You are fine with the splice, as long as it is made well.

InPhase277


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

It may be a good idea to verify what the 2 seperate hot conductors go to, just to make sure its not both the SABC for a kitchen, or 1 of the SABC and something like a bathroom. If it were me, I would check on that just to put any suspicions to bed.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Did this get addressed before or are there still ground wires in the neutral bus? If so, I'd take them out and get a properly installed ground bus.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

goose134 said:


> Did this get addressed before or are there still ground wires in the neutral bus? If so, I'd take them out and get a properly installed ground bus.


 
Aren't some panels allowed to have the neutrals and grounds land on the same bar - as long as its not a sub panel where they are seperated?


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

goose134 said:


> Did this get addressed before or are there still ground wires in the neutral bus? If so, I'd take them out and get a properly installed ground bus.


This is his main panel goose. No problem with grounds on the combined ground/neutral bus. And I don't see a problem with a couple wire nuts either as the OP described them.


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm not saying that it is or isn't code or UL listed for two wires. I tried it once before, putting two wires under the same binding screw, and didn't like how they tightened up. It seemed to me that one wire will usually tighten better than the other. I can get two wires and a pigtail under a wirenut much tighter and feel better about the connection than I can under one screw. I have repaced several panels that caught on fire because of loose connections. 

I know of some electricians that will put two wires under the same screw but they also push wires in the back of switches without wrapping them around the screw, use stack-ons instead of greenies, and doesn't pay attention to the switch that says no and ffo instead of on and off.:no:


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jcalvin said:


> I'm not saying that it is or isn't code or UL listed for two wires. I tried it once before, putting two wires under the same binding screw, and didn't like how they tightened up. It seemed to me that one wire will usually tighten better than the other. I can get two wires and a pigtail under a wirenut much tighter and feel better about the connection than I can under one screw. I have repaced several panels that caught on fire because of loose connections.
> 
> I know of some electricians that will put two wires under the same screw but they also push wires in the back of switches without wrapping them around the screw, *use stack-ons instead of greenies*, and doesn't pay attention to the switch that says no and ffo instead of on and off.:no:


What is a stack-on?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> What is a stack-on?


The crimp sleeves you see on ground wires in residential construction. I believe it is spelled "stay-con". It's a brand name.

InPhase277


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## gold (Feb 23, 2008)

you may be able to add a tandem breaker if the panel is rated for it (IT prolly is being GE) and you dont exceed the max # of ckts allowed.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

jcalvin said:


> and doesn't pay attention to the switch that says no and ffo instead of on and off.:no:


I just thought those switches that said no and ffo were some cheap foreign brand :laughing:


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> The crimp sleeves you see on ground wires in residential construction. I believe it is spelled "stay-con". It's a brand name.
> 
> InPhase277


So are you saying you don't liek them AT ALL, or you don't like them outside of a residential setting? I see them used all the time. I prefer them myself.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Interesting. I know a lot of electricians who would dispute putting sta-cons in the list of hack work. But everyone has their own thing. I don't backstab but UL and the NEC have no problem at all with it, and thousands of electricians do it every day. :whistling2:


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jrclen said:


> Interesting. I know a lot of electricians who would dispute putting sta-cons in the list of hack work. But everyone has their own thing. I don't backstab but UL and the NEC have no problem at all with it, and thousands of electricians do it every day. :whistling2:


I agree. It is a matter of preference. Fred likes them, Jim doesn't. Just because Fred does like them, doesn't make them the only ones to use, and just because Jim doesn't like them doesn't make them not good either.


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## jcalvin (Feb 6, 2008)

STAY-CONS:wink: are fine. I just hate having to carry around another tool in my tool belt to crimp them. I prefer the greenies mainly because of that reason alone.


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