# Bending EMT conduit around 90 degree corner



## moneymgmt (Apr 30, 2007)

I've been wrong before, but you can't put a perfect 90 degree corner in tubing... it will collapse and crease. Don't they have elbows joints for what you need?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

There are some electricians from Chicagoland that might help you. I have never had tp put conduit inside a wall like you are doing.


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## alvanos (Dec 28, 2005)

moneymgmt said:


> I've been wrong before, but you can't put a perfect 90 degree corner in tubing... it will collapse and crease. Don't they have elbows joints for what you need?


Yes, I'm sure that I can get a 90 degree coupling, but my understanding is that one should avoid sharp 90's since it makes pulling wire harder. But you might be right, that this is the only way. Let's see if anybody else can chime in.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

I would not cut studs away considerably.

Would this work: Use a 90 degree conduit elbow or coupling which has a flap on one side and you pull the wires as far as and out of the elbow and then do another pull to continue the wires (no splices) down the conduit.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Put a box near the corner. Not in the corner. Then go up over and down to the next box. I understand your question as I run into this exact situation many times before. I never run conduit horizontally through studs. I always mount all the boxes, stub the conduit up above the ceiling, then use a connector (1). You will use more pipe and wire, but it is much easier. Contractors do this to save time. Don't use any conduit bodies behind the wall. You will fail the inspection.


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## alvanos (Dec 28, 2005)

AllanJ said:


> I would not cut studs away considerably.
> 
> Would this work: Use a 90 degree conduit elbow or coupling which has a flap on one side and you pull the wires as far as and out of the elbow and then do another pull to continue the wires (no splices) down the conduit.


This I could do, and I'm thinking about it ... the only problem being once the drywall is up, I loose the ability to pull new wire. But the more I ponder this, it may be my only option.


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## alvanos (Dec 28, 2005)

J. V. said:


> Put a box near the corner. Not in the corner. Then go up over and down to the next box. I understand your question as I run into this exact situation many times before. I never run conduit horizontally through studs. I always mount all the boxes, stub the conduit up above the ceiling, then use a connector (1). You will use more pipe and wire, but it is much easier. Contractors do this to save time. Don't use any conduit bodies behind the wall. You will fail the inspection.


Hi J.V., I would do this, except the wall in question is a half-wall in a basement, hence no real way to come from the ceiling. This job is a gut-and-redo, and there was no receptacle on this wall before; I'm guessing they didn't want to deal with what I'm dealing with now; instead there were just two receptacles, one on each partition wall. I could leave out the receptacle, but that would technically be a code violation. What are your thoughts on the EMT Inside Corner Elbows that some have mentioned (such as this one: (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=224679-15527-49591). 

Thanks,
Adam


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

AllanJ said:


> I would not cut studs away considerably.
> 
> Would this work: Use a 90 degree conduit elbow or coupling which has a flap on one side and you pull the wires as far as and out of the elbow and then do another pull to continue the wires (no splices) down the conduit.


Can't put that coupler inside a wall. The removable flap needs to remain accessible.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Use a pull elbow these will allow pulling in new wires even if unaccessible. But I would suggest pulling in an extra branch circuit to begin with rather than later because you generally have to sacrifice an existing wire to pull in new ones if you don't install a pull string to begin with. Or a piece of FMC will always work in the corner if it is 1/2" size between boxes. Don't know if Chicago allows flexible metal conduit or not. Also an LL or LR (LL shown in image) emt body will work but may be hard to pull thru if wire is pulled at a later date for new circuits and you don't have access to the cover. Use nail plate covers over your notches (first image).


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Can you go up then back down instead of trying to go around the corner?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Joe

It is there only for ease of pulling and you can pull through these even if not accessible. But you cannot fish through them so you need a pull string or installed wire to begin with to use at a later date. The cover only needs to be accessible after finish if you make a splice which you would never do in a pull elbow.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Joe
> 
> It is there only for ease of pulling and you can pull through these even if not accessible. But you cannot fish through them so you need a pull string or installed wire to begin with to use at a later date. The cover only needs to be accessible after finish if you make a splice which you would never do in a pull elbow.


You cannot bury that fitting... with or without a splice


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Chris 

Very good catch, I was thinking there was an exception for listed pulling elbows and condelet bodies, however after checking NEC 314.29 it specifically says they must remain accessible. My mistake, thank you for the correction.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Chris
> 
> Very good catch, I was thinking there was an exception for listed pulling elbows and condelet bodies, however after checking NEC 314.29 it specifically says they must remain accessible. My mistake, thank you for the correction.



Never good when you bury a fitting... at least for the next guy...:whistling2:


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

They don't allow MC or flex in Chicago???


Wow.



It seems to me that a 1/2" EMT 90 would fit in a 2x4 wall.



Can you remove the stud and notch it from the back side?


Can you drill it and slip short sections in?


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

If you could post a pic, I could totally help. NEVER bury a jake fitting, LB or other conduit body. Couple of ways you can do this. One: Get yourself a short radius bender. Not making this up. This tool exists and can be used in a pinch. The other is simply bend an offset AWAY from the face of the stud. Then when the 90 is in the corner, it will have more room to clear the sweep. When you make the turn, keep it towards the back, and offset it to hit your next box. I'm a computer dummy, but I'll try to draw something up that I can show you better with. 
Bending conduit is what I do.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

If you want to see my credentials, check out the picture post: switch gear pipe work.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Here is my poor rendition of what I was talking about. I know it looks like a child's drawing. Forgive me. Hope it helps. Yes, you will need to couple a few pieces together. For the record, Chicago does allow Romex, but only for temporary lighting. Also BX is limited to existing installations where you have to fish behind walls. Greenfield is same, and if exposed can only run six feet.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Might be a poor drawing but I think that is a pure genius idea.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie .,, I know you done alot of commercal / Industrail work so far but did you recall see one EMT bender it have small bending radius ??

I have old bender with that tight bending radius but i dont use it often unless it is a last restort useage.

that bender it have either 3 1/2 inch radius or 4 iam not sure which one is which but it sure pretty tight bend compared to standard EMT benders most are usally about 5 inch radius 

Merci, Marc


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I am even worse at drawing than goose so I will try to explain a possible remedy. it will take two 90º bends.

first, as the conduit nears the end of the wall, make a 90º bend do that it goes up or down (whatever works for you) and the resulting vertical pipe is against the next flat you want to be on. Then bend a 90º bend so that it turns the direction horizontal again. It does change the elevation about 8 inches so it is not always usable but it removes the problem you are having. It can be made so it is totally inside the the studs this way if you want or it can be surface mounted as well.

well, for some reason I cannot upload my crummy drawing so hopefull the written explanation is understandable.

If thisis surface mounted, you can use an LL or LR to make the corner as well and it will allow youto be able to pull the wire around the corner.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

> I have old bender with that tight bending radius but i dont use it often unless it is a last restort useage.


Marc, I think we are talking about the same bender. And yes, it ONLY gets pulled out in desperation. nap, what you suggest would absolutely work as well. I was simply trying to minimize bends.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

goose134 said:


> nap, what you suggest would absolutely work as well. I was simply trying to minimize bends.


well, if OP wants it in the wall, that is about the only way tp have the conduit in the wall. What OP could add to this if degree of bends is a problem is install a 4 square box with mud ring both before and after this double 90 set-up and use blank plates to cover them once the wall is finished. (I would use 2 gang since it would make access easier)

If he wants the boxes at the same level as each other, he could even throw another 90º bend and bring it back down to the same level as he started at. If he doesn;t want them so close together, he could run either horizontal longer so they are spaced apart.

Next problem.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Let's see now... Starting at an outlet box 14 inches above floor level for a receptacle, conduit runs horizontally towards corner. Do a 90 degree bend to vertical upward. Do a 90 degree bend to horizontal but going out the next wall. We're about 24 inches above floor level. Do a 90 degree bend to vertical and a 90 degree bend to horizontal to resume 14 inches above ground and arrive at the next receptacle box.

What is the practical limit for how many degrees of bend between junction boxes or pull openings (such as a flap at an elbow)? I thought it was 270 degrees regardless of direction or combination of directions. If this is true, the above routing would not work without an access in the wall somewhere.


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## alvanos (Dec 28, 2005)

Thank you all, this is proving extremely valuable to me. My basic understanding of Chicago-area code is that I am allowed 4 bends in a run, not sure if there is a total degree limit to that or not (anybody who can verify?). On the point of bends, does an offset count as 1 or 2? Seems if it counts as 2 then I quickly run out (an offset on each side plus a 90 puts me at 5 bends). Finally, to everybody out there really good at the math involved in making bends of the right lengths, are there any good cheat-sheets out there that you would recommend? I've already found a few that I think are useful, but that's from my uneducated brain  Thanks again, if nothing else I am at least learning!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes Marc we used them a lot ( well actually a little) they are called hickey benders. But they take some practice to get the knack of getting the sharper 90 bend without collapsing the pipe. I couldn't justify bringing that up cause he would have to buy one most likely for one lousy bend.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

AllanJ said:


> Let's see now... Starting at an outlet box 14 inches above floor level for a receptacle, conduit runs horizontally towards corner. Do a 90 degree bend to vertical upward. Do a 90 degree bend to horizontal but going out the next wall. We're about 24 inches above floor level. Do a 90 degree bend to vertical and a 90 degree bend to horizontal to resume 14 inches above ground and arrive at the next receptacle box.
> 
> What is the practical limit for how many degrees of bend between junction boxes or pull openings (such as a flap at an elbow)? I thought it was 270 degrees regardless of direction or combination of directions. If this is true, the above routing would not work without an access in the wall somewhere.


it is 360º between pull points (per NEC. I don't know if Chicago has a different limit) so you are not past that but you do not need to do the last 90 to horizontal. Simply come into the top of the box an that would reduce it down to 270º so, yes, my directions will work the way you ran the pipe but the way I would have run it, I even have 90º of bend left if I needed it.

and if you are putting this in the wall why do you need an offset?

what size conduit are you using and what brand bender do you have? (the measurements for bending are dependant on both of those)


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Stubbie, Marc what you are referring to is a hickey. It only works for rigid. I'm sure you both know this. What I am talking about is an actual bender with a small foot pedal, radius on the bottom and usually green. Short radius bender. Not a hickey. 
Chicago same as NEC regarding bends in pipe. No more than 360 deg.

nap, my way will work. I've roughed a lot of houses in my early days. Your way will work but take a lot of unneeded work.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Actually what we used was a hickey bender for rigid but we used a lot of emt also. I'm not sure if I ever used your short radius bender but I confess it does exist. I had to call a good friend who is a conduit bender for a local industrial contractor and sure enough he says there is one.....not that I doubted you....but I frankly have never used one. But below is an image of what you are talking about....I think...:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Sorry, i could reply much quicker but got hold up with unexpected service call anyway.,,

Goose i know what ya talking about that but i did not get a chance to explain the bender i am describing it is not a hickey bender it a diecast iron short radius bender for EMT's only.

Genrally i don't use the hicky often too easy to kink if not carefull but yes you can get tight bend on it.


hope this will clear up some details with this,

Merci, Marc


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Marc, I think I know what you're talking about. It sounds like the same thing I'm thinking of. I cannot find a picture of it on the web to save my life, however. I don't think that the OP needs this tool. 



> my directions will work the way you ran the pipe but the way I would have run it, I even have 90º of bend left if I needed it.


you CAN stay in the wall with the way I stated earlier and you'll have at least 180 deg. to spare depending on the offset.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Yepper,.. Goose we are on the right page :yes: .

Anyway i did read Goose's comment and he right on the nail with that details with bending pipes like that.

Merci, Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Post #30 2nd page I think the image I posted is what your talking about goose.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Stubbie, I saw that one, the one I'm thinking of is a little different. I'm sure they do the same thing though


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

goose134 said:


> nap, my way will work. I've roughed a lot of houses in my early days. Your way will work but take a lot of unneeded work.


as I have always been told, get 10 electricians together and ask them how to do something an you may very well get 10 different answers. Each of them acceptable. Some better for one reason or another and each of the legal.

the problem I have with your method is at the corner, you end up with a lot of wood missing and I have had too many inspectors get too picky about this. Since there will be a stud on the first wall directly next to the adjacent wall, it is near impossible to make that bend and leave enough wood there to make it acceptable to most inspectors I deal with.

and to Stubbies pic; that bender appears to be a Benfield combination short radius bender (1/2 in and 3/4 in sizes together) which has a 3 inch radius for the 1/2 inch EMT. Since code requires a minimum 4 inch radius on 1/2 EMT, technically, this will not make a legal bend.

as a matter of fact, when you install your way, the last 2X on the first wall will have at least 1 1/2 inches removed from it if you offset to the absolute back of the 2X as you make your offset. That leaving no more than 2 inches of 2X is a real problem but can be remedied if you install a stud brace on the backside of the thinned 2X.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hey nap

Ok so what the heck to you use it for? I'm serious not ever having used one.

Would the inspector really care if the wall isn't load bearing and half wall like this one is ?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Hey nap
> 
> Ok so what the heck to you use it for? I'm serious not ever having used one.
> 
> Would the inspector really care if the wall isn't load bearing and half wall like this one is ?


One of them has around here. He shouldn;t but that doesn;t mean he won;t. Working on a job and the plumber gad to cut out for a 2" vent pipe through non-load bearing 2X wall. Inspector made them install stud braces to shore up the 2X's.

and as to the short radius bender, heck if I know. Not sure if the inspector would even really notice the tight bend but technically it is not legal.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

I think that tonight I will make this bend in my half gutted bathroom and post pics of it. We'll see what it looks like. I have not done wood studs for a long time nap, you may be right about the removal. Also, nap is correct on the bend radius not being to code. That is why it hardly ever gets pulled out.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I'm not really trying to argue with you goose. If you can get it in like this, yes it would be less bending therefore preferrable.



Looking forward to seeing some of your work.:thumbsup:

btw; keep the snow and cold over there on your side of the lake. It has been pretty cold over here by Notre Dame.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Nap.,,

speaking of snow i going get hit pretty good later tonite [ 4-8 inch / 10-20 CM ] 

but i just got back from my shop and i pull out my short radius bender and i did mesured the radius it is 4.05 inch [ 11 cm ] so i am just a hair over the min code requriement.

but that bender is so old it dont have the manufacter name on it.

hope that help a bit.

Merci, Marc 


p.s. i am on generator power as i am typing :whistling2:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

10 -20 CM of snow.....lets see there is 2.54 cm to one inch so that means 10/2.54 is 4 inches of the white stuff and 20 CM is 8 inches of the white. This is why I hate the metric system it always exaggerates the real depth of the snow every time I try to think of snow depth in cm I think it is twice as deep as it really is and lock my 4x4 in. 

Now if I was to think of my @%[email protected] in cm's that would be another thing.......


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

LOL but i have one of my service truck have 4X4 on it [ my hevey IHC do have it and older ford pick up truck have it as well and both are diesel.]

Merci, Marc


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Hey guys-

I was reading this thread when it dawned on me that, if I understand correctly, I achieved an installation that fits the bill, i.e. inside corner 90 deg. bend, 1/2" emt.

I am remodeling my living room and I needed to fur out the walls to the equivalent of a 2x6 cavity for code purposes (R-19 insulation value for all new and remodel exterior walls). This room had only 2 receptacles in it when I began and let's say that it was by no means code-compliant in terms of required outlets/wall length. Since I knew that I'd be furring, I decided to run the conduit flush to the faces of the existing studs. Of course, the challenge was the corner. What I did was the following:

1. Bend a 90 that is set back so that no chord is beyond the vertical plane of the corner framing.
2. Bend an offset immediately adjacent to the 90 to bring the pipe back flush with the perpendicular wall.

Here's one of a switch box. This was easy since I could just kick back from the vertical 90 to get the conduit within 2 inches of the exposed sheathing before bending 90 to the perpendicular wall (note: the cut lumber is the new furring and drywall blocking).







(OK, I checked my work and it's not a dog! The short stub on the 90 at the box gives the illusion. Whew!)

The next two were more of what I am describing above.
















(no dogs here!)

Keep in mind that these are all standard bends and at no point did I violate the 360 rule anywhere between boxes.

Now, I will say that someone made a good point about hogging out too much stud. In my case, the existing wall studs were not touched at all. On the other hand, in my entertainment room that I am remodelling as well, I did run a horizontal conduit across half of one wall and into the other (perpendicular) using the same method. I used a 7/8" auger to carefully drill the holes (at the corner I hogged out a bit more to allow for the curvature). This did not bother my inspector however I did wind up with a _few_ couplings to get all the pipe in! FYI-there was a beam below the wall plate which made running the conduit below impractical.

Jim


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> Now if I was to think of my @%[email protected] in cm's that would be another thing.......


How many milliliters is a pint of beer?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Hey Jim good photos there. that the genral way to do it in resdentail work.

Merci, Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigJimmy said:


> How many milliliters is a pint of beer?


 
About 480 ML if i recall it right 


Merci, Marc

EDIT: 473ML = 1 US pint [ liquid ]


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

frenchelectrican said:


> About 480 ML if i recall it right
> 
> 
> Merci, Marc
> ...


Thanks, Marc. I was just being a smart allec! <burrrrp>


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I think the short radius bender you guys are talking about bends in a 3" radius, instead of 5", for 1/2".

InPhase277


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

InPhase277 said:


> I think the short radius bender you guys are talking about bends in a 3" radius, instead of 5", for 1/2".
> 
> InPhase277


 
Yes it is true and i just verify my bender it is shy over 4 inch but if i want to make it more tighter i will just used the Hickey bender [ not too easy to make a tight bend without getting any kink on it ]

but normal run of mill benders most are 5 inch radius [ 1/2 emt size ]

Merci, Marc


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

nap, yes we are getting pounded here in Chi town. First it snows, then it freezes. Thaw and repeat. Getting tired of shovelling wide enough for my stroller (we've got twins). Anyway....
Jimmy, nice work on the bends. Good photos too. I have some photos of a simulated condition from my downstairs bathroom. I kind of had to make sure I could still do this. nap after all did point out that the stud would have to be chewed out considerably. This is what I came up with:










I didn't have to chew too much material out of the stud as this close up will attest. I used an 1 1/4 spade bit about 1/2" away from the back of the stud. The other hole I did have to cheat a bit to get the 90 through.









nap, I apologize if I seemed argumentative, I didn't mean to offend. I've read your posts before and if I remember correctly you can be a bit stubborn. This is where the phone call for mr. pot comes in for mr. kettle, something about black. Anyway, I hope we're still ok.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

goose134 said:


> nap, I apologize if I seemed argumentative, I didn't mean to offend. I've read your posts before and if I remember correctly you can be a bit stubborn. This is where the phone call for mr. pot comes in for mr. kettle, something about black. Anyway, I hope we're still ok.


Who, Me? Stubborn? Nah, you must be thinking about somebody else.:wink: 

My apologies to all. I guess I do come on a bit strong, sometimes without reason. Just whack me when that happens. 

Now tell me; is that a 2X6 or a 2X4?

If a 1 1/4 in spade bit was used, it would remove 1/2 of the stud. That appears to be less than that in the pic. 

Like I said, I have seen a guy get bit on such so I suppose I get a bit defensive but yours looks good and I would argue that one with the inspec if he had a problem with it. The carpenter, plumber, and I still saw no reason for the inspec having a problem with it, especially since it was not a load bearing wall but as you all know, sometimes you just accept what the inspec says. It is easier than arguing the point.

Did you now that around here the steel connectors are considerably less expensive than the die-cast? A previous employer had a lot of problems with some cheap steel ones so everybody was turned off to them but currently they seem to be of good quality so, save the money where you can.:thumbup:


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

goose134 said:


> (we've got twins). Anyway....
> Jimmy, nice work on the bends. Good photos too.


You've got twins too? Mine are 5 year old boys. I don't have to push them around in a stroller anymore. Now I watch 'em charge down the sidewalk, hit the ice and land on their butts. I imagine they'll learn one of these days!

Thanks for the compliment. I was pretty proud of the results. Your work is excellent as well (everyone: see Goose's handywork in the Project Showcase. He's a pipe magician.). I did the exact same thing in my new media/entertainment room. Thread the needle!

TTFN,
Jimmy


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

> Now tell me; is that a 2X6 or a 2X4?


Nope, it's a 2x4. I swear to you everything is as I said. Jimmy, thaks for the compliment. It's also good to hear that other people with twins have lives outside of raising them. Right now it just seems like my wife and I keep kicking them back in bounds when they're bouncing around. One boy, one girl. Hit the jackpot first time out. You?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Looks good.:notworthy: :notworthy:


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## Handy Hansen (Mar 12, 2009)

A good way to get conduit around a tight right angle corner is to make two right angle bends with a vertical section between the two bends. The first bend would take the conduit that runs horizontal along the wall and run it vertically up (or down the corner for say 6 inches (or whatever length your bender can easily manage. The outside of the conduit should lie into the corner. The next bend takes the pipe that runs verically in the corner and turns it to run flat against the wall beyond the corner. The final result is two right angle bends that are at right angles to eachother. Wires pull through this combo much easier than they do through a corner fitting, which might not pass code anyway on an inside corner, and the pipe lies tight into the corner with no radius holding it out into the room. Good luck


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## maspieljr (Apr 5, 2019)

Handy Hansen has it nailed. This is perfect.


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