# Which way do i turn the adjustment screw to reduce gas flow on my furnace?



## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

Installed a new gas control valve and want to make sure i am doing it right. My unit is listed at an input of 97000, but when i clocked it by the meter it is flowing at 120000.

My documentation says to turn the screw counterclockwise to 'reduce gas pressure'... does that mean it will lower the BTU's like i need it to do?

Thanks!

The valve is a honeywell vr8204m 1075 in case you wondered.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark said:


> Installed a new gas control valve and want to make sure i am doing it right. My unit is listed at an input of 97000, but when i clocked it by the meter it is flowing at 120000.
> 
> My documentation says to turn the screw counterclockwise to 'reduce gas pressure'... does that mean it will lower the BTU's like i need it to do?
> 
> ...


 need to check in comming gas pressure to gas valve and check gas pressure leaving valve.. use a manometer for that.:yes:


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

So let me get this straight... when i clock the furnace by the meter, that is actually giving me the outlet flow rate? And you are saying that i need to check the inlet pressure as well, which would have to be done with a manometer? If the problem is that i need the overall flow rate lower, shouldnt the inlet pressure be somewhat irrelevant? 

My reasoning being that regardless of what the inlet pressure is, the gas control valve should always be able to adjust it lower than what it is flowing (as long as the gas control valve adjustment screw wasnt already at the maximum adjustment).

Just trying to understand how it all flows.

Some more info on the issue -- after i replaced the gas control valve, my rollout switch keeps tripping and i observe orange/red erratic flames in the burner area. Someone suggested i check the gas pressure, and i discovered it was flowing at 120k instead of the 97k it is supposed to be at.

I'm hoping this is the reason for the red/erratic flames and rollout switch issue.

Compounding the problem is that when i tried to adjust the gas flow by turning the screw, and then reclocking with the meter, it doesnt appear to have any effect on the gasflow. I turned the screw 14 turns counterclockwise (gradually not all at once) and got almost the same reading... then i turned the screw all the way clockwise until it stopped and it still read basically the same (118-120k). This leads me to believe there is an issue with the regulating screw on the gas control valve, unless i am doing something wrong.

Here is a picture of the screw i am adjusting:

http://imgur.com/uy0Xz3L

Thanks!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Don't! Call a pro before you get hurt.


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## hvactech126 (Nov 11, 2010)

STOP!!!! Call a professional.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

what you are doing is dangerous... you can't play with a gas valve like that ...outlet pressure on a valve is 3.5 on a manometer guage.... inlet pressure should be about 7 inches on a manometer. then after gas pressure is set you have to check temp rise on furnace ....:yes:,,,forget about clocking meter as you say ..after you installed the valve this is what needed done to insure proper install..


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

With all due respect, i thought that was pretty much the point of this forum... for DIY'ers to get input from experts, or close enough.

Telling me 'stop' isn't a reason for me to stop, when you aren't telling me what danger i am in by adjusting an adjustable gas valve, of which i am doing on the instruction of the many professionals that have documented how to clock and adjust a gas valve.

Yes i am aware of the explosion/electrocution risk involved in working with a gas furnace, but again, im not sure how my adjusting of the adjustable control has elicited such a 'stop' response instead of a discussion of what i thought were educated questions about the situation.

I assume it is because i said how many times i turned the screw... but again, that wasn't all at once... i would only turn it once or twice at a time, and i had the unit and gas shut off each time i opened the panel to adjust it, after which i would replace the panel and re clock it. 

I dont understand why clocking the meter isn't useful here... doesn't that indicate that the gas flow is incorrect?


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark said:


> With all due respect, i thought that was pretty much the point of this forum... for DIY'ers to get input from experts, or close enough.
> 
> Telling me 'stop' isn't a reason for me to stop, when you aren't telling me what danger i am in by adjusting an adjustable gas valve, of which i am doing on the instruction of the many professionals that have documented how to clock and adjust a gas valve.
> 
> ...


again with all respect...if a professional told you to adjust a manifold pressure setting with out proper equiptment when doing so ..is just plain wrong....you need to understand how a furnace operates before you start making critial adjustments..


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

Iam inline to agree with the others here call a pro to reset your manifold pressure and then recheck your temp rise to be sure your not overheating the furnace.....


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## oldbikes (Sep 5, 2014)

On the Plate that gives you the BTU rating of the furnace Also has a spot that will say Minimum and Maximun Gas Supply Pressure. Also on the plate is a box that says Manifold Pressure. You need a Manometer to check pressures and properly adjust the valve.

Sort of like blowing up a tire without a gauge at some point the tire will have air in it but you have no idea of what the pressure is. This is the same thing to little or to much pressure is a very bad thing.

So you have options, Get a Manometer learn howto use it or Hire someone to check and adjust the Valve. You may have other problems other than the gas valve.


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## gassyplumber (Sep 17, 2014)

Don't f with gas. The appliance needs to be set up and checked with combustion analyzer. A heat exchanger inspection is a good idea based upon it being over fired. Just don't want to have a preventable health emergency


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

How old is this furnace? Are you sure the heat exchanger is ok? Why was the gas valve replaced?
You need to know manifold pressure when doing any adjustments to the burner. You also need to know the delta T over the furnace to understand if its overfiring.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Meter clocking will tell you how much it is firng. Was there any other appliances running at the same time ie: water heater, clothes dryer, range? Those can screw up your readings.

Is that a new valve or some used item you got from EZ Bay? Don't look new to me. If it is used it may be damaged and you are wasting your time. You cannot adjust a gas valve down or up very far and certainly not as much as your over fired readings indicate.

The proper procedure is to use a manometer to set it but in theory meter clocking will tell you the firing rate. It is NOT the proper way to adjust the valve or a shortcut.

Did you use the proper meter clocking chart and dial and scale. It is easy to make a mistake. You also need to be very accurate with the # of seconds and use a digital watch or stopwatch. I usually do 3 tests and average them.


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

Can this manometer be used also for measuring the manifold pressure or In/Out pressure for the valve ?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Digital-Manometer-Differential-Air-Pressure-Meter-Gauge-/120658272340

I guess that the metal piece that is in this picture gets attached to the valve


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> again with all respect...if a professional told you to adjust a manifold pressure setting with out proper equiptment when doing so ..is just plain wrong....


Well how about the people at honeywell that wrote the installation instructions for my valve? Were they plain wrong to literally include instructions on how to check and adjust gas flow rate by clocking the gas meter? Because they did.

I've yet to really hear a good explanation as to why clocking the meter is useless in determining gas flow issues. I mean if that's so, then why does honeywell include it as part of the startup and checkout process (not to mention everyone else that does)?

Look, maybe this forum isn't as in-depth as i had assumed (nothing wrong with that), and i can see how my post came off as wild zone antics if that stuff isnt the norm here. Maybe this place is more suited for discussions on planning square footage and changing filters or something... again, nothing wrong with that, but that's why i was so surprised to get all of these 'stop' replies for doing things that are openly discussed in other places.

I'm not trying to step on toes, or get my toes stepped on... just explaining how maybe this got off on the wrong foot. I understand that you guys are only looking out for the safety of knuckleheads like me, and that is completely understandable and appreciated. However, when i hear stuff that seemingly contradicts all the other research i've done it does make things more confusing.

All in all, i only asked a relatively simple question, to make sure i was interpreting the language correctly -- will reducing the gas pressure on the control valve lower the BTU output. Never got an answer for that one, but it's probably irrelevant to the issue at this point.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

oldbikes said:


> So you have options, Get a Manometer learn howto use it or Hire someone to check and adjust the Valve. You may have other problems other than the gas valve.


Mmm, well if it came down to it i would definitely buy a manometer before calling a technician... i'm just trying to see if its possible to troubleshoot this issue without one first. Thanks for the input.



roughneck said:


> How old is this furnace? Are you sure the heat exchanger is ok? Why was the gas valve replaced?
> You need to know manifold pressure when doing any adjustments to the burner. You also need to know the delta T over the furnace to understand if its overfiring.


21 years old Rheem RRGG-10E37JKR.

Gas valve was replaced because the furnace wouldn't light. With the help of others and some internet research i used a multimeter to test components that pointed to the gas valve as the culprit. Ordered a used one and the furnace worked again, but with the rollout switch/orange flame issue that i described above.

While replacing the valve i found a large crack in one of the heat exchangers. I dismantled the entire unit and removed all 4 exchanger cells to inspect. 1 was cracked, the rest appeared okay. Replaced the cracked cell and reinstalled/sealed everything.

Thanks for the input.



yuri said:


> Meter clocking will tell you how much it is firng. Was there any other appliances running at the same time ie: water heater, clothes dryer, range? Those can screw up your readings.
> 
> Is that a new valve or some used item you got from EZ Bay? Don't look new to me. If it is used it may be damaged and you are wasting your time. You cannot adjust a gas valve down or up very far and certainly not as much as your over fired readings indicate.
> 
> ...


Great input here, thanks!

There were no other applications using gas. Yes i did 3 runs each time with a digital stopwatch, and averaged them... and then double checked my calculations. All of my readings were 118-120k no matter which way i adjusted the screw.

Yes, the valve was purchased used and i was afraid that that might be the issue as i thought i should be able to see some fluctuation as i adjusted the pressure. I guess i should have been more direct with my initial question, because i guess what i ultimately need to know is whether or not the pressure adjustment is broken on this valve. It seems that it is to me. I was still in troubleshooting mode, though, and just wanted a quick answer about the reducing pressure thing and wanted to keep it brief... whoops. :whistling2:

Thanks again for the input everyone.

edit: and if this discussion is beyond the scope of what this forum is intended for, just let me know. no worries.


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

I did the same thing (adjusted the pressure) on the line using the gas line valve. The furnace was short cycling. I still believe that I have a high pressure, I am going to clock it this weekend and measure it when I get my manometer..
From my experience, the line gas valve is a sort of on/off for the most part of the rotation of the screw. It gets to adjust the pressure when it gets very close to off.
I have to admit that I was afraid of playing with the gas valve without having a manometer.

PS: my furnace is also 25 years old.


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

tireshark said:


> Well how about the people at honeywell that wrote the installation instructions for my valve? Were they plain wrong to literally include instructions on how to check and adjust gas flow rate by clocking the gas meter? Because they did.
> 
> I've yet to really hear a good explanation as to why clocking the meter is useless in determining gas flow issues. I mean if that's so, then why does honeywell include it as part of the startup and checkout process (not to mention everyone else that does)?
> 
> ...


You will get used to it just be a little bit patient
This forum has a mix of users, retired contractors and active contractors, some of them are favorable to DIYer others are not so favourable.
I have seen worse (see hvac-talk.com) than this, so far this forum is the best (  yes I just said that! )

As far as your valve goes I too have a Honeywell valve and I was able to find the PDF manual on Internet. This valve is used in many applications (ex: water tank heaters) hence the directions. 
There is a lot of scare tactics going on around here or in any other forum with respect to DIYers.
From what you are saying you are handy and you understand what you are doing
Search the net for ACCA manuals and for Audel HVAC fundamentals. There is also a couple of good books on debugging furnaces just search them on books.google.com or ...you know where ....nts


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Used valve. While it may have been sold as a good natural gas valve. No way to know if it isn't defective. Or it may have been converted to LP. And you can't adjust an LP converted gas valve low enough for nat gas. It would need to be converted back to a nat gas valve. Which is basically, installing a nat gas spring under the adjusting screw you have been turning.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If it was used it may be set for Propane OR somebody screwed the pressure regulator all the way down and it is stuck there wide open. Even though the screw backs up it does not mean the regulator is moving with it. Get a NEW valve.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

OK, thanks for the advice!


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

I was not saying meter clocking was wrong ...I said forget about it because you were messing up the setting of your gas valve by just turning the manifold set screw without a proper meter... this is a diy site you can do what you like ...just don't expect everyone to react the same way...good luck


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

You said it was wrong to adjust the gas pressure by clocking the meter.

That contradicts the official documentation that i received with my valve, as well as many other sources... which confused me at first. 

As far as i can tell it is a valid method, just not the most accurate.



> I said forget about it because you were messing up the setting of your gas valve by just turning the manifold set screw without a proper meter


As far as i know, adjusting an adjustable component isn't messing anything up... it's changing whatever you are adjusting.


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

tireshark said:


> You said it was wrong to adjust the gas pressure by clocking the meter.
> 
> That contradicts the official documentation that i received with my valve, as well as many other sources... which confused me at first.
> 
> ...


you are wrong. It's messing somebody's income  by not getting paid to do a simple thing

As I explaine d you if you go to other forums and you ask that they will declare emergency state, close your thread and scare you to death that you ask an unforgivable thing!


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

Get your hands on this book:
Forced Hot Air Furnaces Troubleshooting and Repair 1999
It has all you need for simple situations and more


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark said:


> You said it was wrong to adjust the gas pressure by clocking the meter.
> 
> That contradicts the official documentation that i received with my valve, as well as many other sources... which confused me at first.
> 
> ...


 read post #6 again...I did not say it was wrong...the way you were adjusting the manifold pressure was wrong..hvac 101 gas pressures are set and checked with a manometer.. you don't just start turning screws ,sorry if i mislead you....after 35 yrs in the trade installing and servicing you would think I would know that ..oh well I'll keep trying..


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

Now you are confusing me again.



> I did not say it was wrong...the way you were adjusting the manifold pressure was wrong..hvac 101 gas pressures are set and checked with a manometer..


When you say 'adjusting the manifold pressure' are you referring to adjusting the flow rate through the gas control valve? Because that is the only thing i did, and you told me the method i used was wrong. 

If you think what i did was wrong, you should get in touch with the Honeywell people and tell them their manual is incorrect. 

Beyond that, it might be less confusing if you explained WHY you feel it is wrong instead of just saying 'do it this way, the other way is wrong'... especially when the manufacturer instructions contradict what you are saying.




> you don't just start turning screws


Right, that's why the very first thing i said was that i measured the gas flow and it was too high.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> Now you are confusing me again.
> 
> When you say 'adjusting the manifold pressure' are you referring to adjusting the flow rate through the gas control valve? Because that is the only thing i did, and you told me the method i used was wrong.
> 
> ...



Do you know how many BTUs per cubic foot of gas your nat gas is? You would need to call your gas supplier and ask them. 

If its 1000BTU per cf. Clocking the meter will be close. If its 875BTU per CF, then clocking the meter will have your furnace under firing. And if its 1125BTU per CF, clocking the meter will have your furnace over fired. Look at your gas bill. It should tell you BTU content, or caloric content. And show if you need to use multipliers. 

Proper set up would be done with a manometer and a combustion analyzer.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

Yes i checked on my specific BTU rate, thanks.

Since no one can tell me why it's wrong to adjust manifold pressure by clocking the gas meter, i have to assume it's a valid method. 

From what i've read, it appears that a manometer would be required if you wanted to verify the inlet pressure... but for the purpose of this discussion (determining firing rate, adjusting gas pressure, determining if the pressure regulator works), that is essentially irrelevant.

In other words:

Is it wrong to install a gas control valve and not check the inlet pressure? Yes.

Is it wrong to adjust manifold pressure by clocking the meter? *NO*.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You set the manifold pressure with a manometer and check the inlet pressure with it. Inlet pressure is controlled by the gas co regulator and we don't adjust it, just check it.

You can get the firing rate by meter clocking but who they heck is going to run outside and clock the meter and run inside and turn the screw 1/16 of a turn which is how precise you have to be. Then run outside and do the procedure 10-20X.

Totally impractical. Do-able yes. You can get wifey to clock the meter and you tweak the valve and use cell phones or yell. Pros have their ways and it needs to be practical and finely adjusted ( the valve ). Honeywell gives generic advice and is not in the eductaion biz of the trade. They sell parts. In school we are taught to use a manometer and how to finely adjust a valve and pressure. Then there are sealed combustion furnaces and meter clocking won't work very well but that is a whole other technical topic.

Feel free to meter clock it with a new valve. Chances are VERY good it will be set at 3.5"WC from the factory and you are Golden.:yes:


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

yuri said:


> Totally impractical. Do-able yes.


Yes but impractical does not mean wrong, or necessarily dangerous. Being told it was wrong/dangerous didnt agree with what i thought i knew about the process, and made things more confusing.

I tried asking clarifying questions in post 3, but i mostly got 'stop' or 'thats wrong do it this way' (although eventually the posts were more substantive) , which didnt help me to understand the issue better. Also, there seems to have been a bit of intertwining between the questions 'can you install a gas valve without a monometer' and 'can you check and adjust gas pressure without a monometer' which muddled things more.

I now know (i think) that the specific reason a monometer would be required in this situation would be to ensure that the pressure being delivered to the valve wasn't too high... which could damage the valve or create errors. That being said, clocking the meter is a legitimate, albeit impractical, way to check/adjust gas pressure. 

Also, in Honeywell's defense they state that the inlet pressure should be checked, which would require a monometer... but they also say clocking the meter is acceptable to check/adjust the gas pressure.





> You can get the firing rate by meter clocking but *who the heck is going to run outside and clock the meter and run inside and turn the screw* 1/16 of a turn which is how precise you have to be. Then run outside and do the procedure 10-20X.


:cowboy: Howdy.

In my defense the unit is outside so i didnt have to go very far... heck it only took me about 30 minutes to get 3 or 4 readings. :001_tongue:

Thanks for your input, ive learned a lot more about the process now thanks to some research and the posts here, and im looking forward to checking things out with a new valve.

Thanks again to everyone, including ben's plumbing.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Sometimes you have to sift thru the chaff to get the grain or some wise old saying like that.

Feel free to come back.:yes:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> Yes i checked on my specific BTU rate, thanks.
> 
> Since no one can tell me why it's wrong to adjust manifold pressure by clocking the gas meter, i have to assume it's a valid method.
> 
> ...


Its yes to both.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> Its yes to both.



Ah yes, there's that good ole 'it's wrong but im not going to say why' answer that many of you are so fond of. 

If the BTU content is known, and the inlet pressure has been verified with a manometer, then WHAT is wrong with clocking the meter to verify and/or adjust the flow rate... other than it being slightly less accurate?

The repeated inability to answer that... along with the fact that the manufacturer includes this method in their instructions... along with the fact that many professionals teach this method... leads me to believe that some of you guys are just being stubborn about the validity of the method.

Sheesh. It's not like im over here going 'IM RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG' or something... i have repeatedly asked for an explanation as to WHY it's wrong, as all i really care about is fully understanding whats involved. Apparently you guys wont, or can't, give an answer.

Prove me wrong with something other than 'nuh uh'. :whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> Ah yes, there's that good ole 'it's wrong but im not going to say why' answer that many of you are so fond of.
> 
> If the BTU content is known, and the inlet pressure has been verified with a manometer, then WHAT is wrong with clocking the meter to verify and/or adjust the flow rate... other than it being slightly less accurate?
> 
> ...


You have no way of knowing how well the gas is burning. Clocking a meter doesn't tell you if its burning correctly.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> You have no way of knowing how well the gas is burning. Clocking a meter doesn't tell you if its burning correctly.


I'm not talking about combustion analysis, if that's what you are referring to. I've been pretty clear that i'm only talking about verifying/adjusting flow rate or manifold pressure or whatever you want to call it.

Are you saying that its impossible to determine flow rate, or to adjust the flow rate, without doing combustion analysis?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

What you need to know about HVAC or other sites ( Elec or Plumbiing etc ) that have Pros is that there is a purist mentality or attitude and we also like to impress each other with tech talk etc etc. Kinda like bragging or who can talk more technical than the other guy. One upmanship. Nothing wrong with that as it gets boring answering the same clean your flame sensor questions etc etc. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. I can get into the specifics of combustion analysis but like you said that is not what you are asking and VERY few techs do it anyway. It is more for larger Commercial/Industrial units. Costs many thousands of $$ for the equipment plus it needs periodic calibrating etc so most techs cannot afford it. 

Gas burners these days don't have adjustable air shutters on the burners and there is not much you can adjust. With old school burners you had adjustments and especially with conversion burners or oil burners. Like having fuel injection nowadays instead of carbeurators that needed setting. Furnaces burn a lot cleaner due to the improvements in technology.

It is more important to have new good quality CO detectors in your house and check the heat exchanger than worrying about combustion analysis IMO.

Adjusting flow rate is to make sure it is not overfired/overheating or underfired. Combustion analysis and heat output or efficiency is a whole different topic.

Relax. You are fine.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> I'm not talking about combustion analysis, if that's what you are referring to. I've been pretty clear that i'm only talking about verifying/adjusting flow rate or manifold pressure or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Are you saying that its impossible to determine flow rate, or to adjust the flow rate, without doing combustion analysis?


Your question in the previous post was.


> Is it wrong to adjust manifold pressure by clocking the meter? *NO*.


Which I said the answer is yes, it is wrong. 

Clocking the meter will tell you rough volume(easy to get different rates 3 times in a row on a dial meter), but not manifold pressure.


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## PF4DIY (Nov 12, 2014)

tireshark said:


> Ah yes, there's that good ole 'it's wrong but im not going to say why' answer that many of you are so fond of.
> 
> If the BTU content is known, and the inlet pressure has been verified with a manometer, then WHAT is wrong with clocking the meter to verify and/or adjust the flow rate... other than it being slightly less accurate?
> 
> ...


By my opinion when they do things like this they are actually working against the purpose of this site. They are trying to discourage you. You are going to notice a funny thing, after a while, if you insist they will give you valid answers.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

they can try to discourage if they wish...imo..as they talk in circles you begin to see they are confused and really don't know the basics of certian things needed to perform the task they are asking questions about.....for that reason ..it is why we tell them to call a pro.....


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark...let it go now ...we don't have to prove you wrong....you did that all by yourself.....Iam done with this post...


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## 52Caddy (Jun 5, 2007)

Okay, now who can take all the good information out of this thread and condense it into roughly 1/2 a page for future reference? (-;


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You can meter clock but it gives you a ROUGH averaged result as Been~ said. Good enough to know if you are over/underfiring. Meters are jerky and don't move smooth. The more tests you do the average reading and results gets better.

If you want accuracy and efficiency then you use a manometer AND a combustion analyzer.

Advice on the net is subject to how motivated the replier is and whether they feel your are safe enough to give detailed info to or can understand. Key word "feel".

Don't get snarky or you won't get any help. We are volunteers.:yes:


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

tireshark said:


> Installed a new gas control valve and want to make sure i am doing it right. My unit is listed at an input of 97000, but when i clocked it by the meter it is flowing at 120000.
> 
> My documentation says to turn the screw counterclockwise to 'reduce gas pressure'... does that mean it will lower the BTU's like i need it to do?
> 
> ...


Wow!

Clocking the meter is a perfectly acceptable method of DIY'ing gas pressure.... so long as we understand it's a ballpark answer and we're fine with that. (I don't know too many diy'ers with nanometers and combustion analyzers!)

Having said that, you SHOULD be seeing a difference in the meter with the adjustment screw all the in vs all the way out, and if you're not then the diaphram/valve in the pressure regulator is probably stuck. If this is a used valve then it's quite common since the diaphragm has usually operated on a pretty narrow setting for a number of years and as 'worn in' that way. Sometimes a sharp wrap on the side will clear the problem and other times you may actually have to remove the cap and spring and physically loosen the diaphragm with a small screwdriver. Careful not to rip or poke holes in the diaphragm!

If the valve actually needs opening up to clear the issue then I would just toss it and get a new one because you have DIY'ed just about as far as you can!


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It is TOTALLY unsafe and illegal to open a gas valve and tamper with the diaphram. There are tamper proof screws and special colored glue which breaks on the body or screws. They are critical safety devices and not meant to be opened. If there is ever a fire or explosion somebody is in deep sheet. This is why we have to be careful not to give DIYers dangerous advice.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> Your question in the previous post was.
> Which I said the answer is yes, it is wrong.
> 
> Clocking the meter will tell you rough volume(easy to get different rates 3 times in a row on a dial meter), but not manifold pressure.


The reason i used the term 'manifold pressure' was because ben'splumbing used it multiple times to describe what i was doing. I asked him to confirm that 'adjusting manifold pressure' was the correct terminology to describe what i was doing, and no one informed or corrected me otherwise.

However, above the question you are referring to, i specifically described what i was doing: (determining fire rate, adjusting gas pressure, determining if pressure regulator works)... but i called it 'adjusting the manifold pressure' like ben'splumbing did, which caused my summary to be incorrect because of the terminology.

So the summary should have been:

Is it wrong to install a gas control valve without a monometer? Yes.
Is it wrong to perform those 3 tasks by clocking the meter (like i was told)? No.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> they can try to discourage if they wish...imo..as they talk in circles you begin to see they are confused and really don't know the basics of certian things needed to perform the task they are asking questions about.....for that reason ..it is why we tell them to call a pro.....tireshark...let it go now ...we don't have to prove you wrong....you did that all by yourself.....Iam done with this post...


Dont be a jerk man. The whole reason this thread is like this is because of you telling me what i was doing was wrong, and then proceeding to throw around specific terminology loosely. 

Heck, the very first post i made was only asking which way the screw needed to be turned to reduce the firing rate, as i wanted to doublecheck my understanding of what the manual said... all that required was a yes or no and i would have been out of here... but you took the discussion in a different direction by answering questions i didnt ask.

I havent talked in circles, ive been pretty specific about what i was doing since the first post... but now it looks like i am snarky and talking in circles only because i mixed up some terms (because you were using them), and because i wanted to find out the reasons for why what i was doing was 'wrong and dangerous'.

As i said before, i know your intention is to help and that you are only looking out for the safety of DIY'ers... but this isn't just a matter of me trying to be right or wrong.


@ Bob: Thanks for the info. I plan on getting a new valve soon.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> The reason i used the term 'manifold pressure' was because ben'splumbing used it multiple times to describe what i was doing. I asked him to confirm that 'adjusting manifold pressure' was the correct terminology to describe what i was doing, and no one informed or corrected me otherwise.
> 
> However, above the question you are referring to, i specifically described what i was doing: (determining fire rate, adjusting gas pressure, determining if pressure regulator works)... but i called it 'adjusting the manifold pressure' like ben'splumbing did, which caused my summary to be incorrect because of the terminology.
> 
> ...


If its wrong to install a gas valve without a manometer, then it is wrong to adjust it without using one, and only relying on the clocking of the meter.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> If its wrong to install a gas valve without a manometer, then it is wrong to adjust it without using one, and only relying on the clocking of the meter.


No, as yuri and others have said it's impractical but it isn't wrong... which agrees with the manufacturers instructions.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> No, as yuri and others have said it's impractical but it isn't wrong... which agrees with the manufacturers instructions.


Is your gas content 1,000 BTUs per CF. Are your orifices sized for 1,000 BTU per CF, or some other value. If the gas going through the orifices is at too high or low of a pressure, it won't burn right. So setting by clocking is wrong. 


But you got some people to tell you what you wanted to hear. So be happy.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> Is your gas content 1,000 BTUs per CF. Are your orifices sized for 1,000 BTU per CF, or some other value. If the gas going through the orifices is at too high or low of a pressure, it won't burn right. So setting by clocking is wrong.
> 
> 
> But you got some people to tell you what you wanted to hear. So be happy.


I already told you i checked my BTU rate and i know what my orifice sizes are. You keep trying to 'disprove' me (although its not really me, it's really your peers) by bringing up information that is obtained *independently *from taking measurements of the gas flow.

Drop the whole 'you just want to hear that you're right' act, because i have already explained how that isn't the case. From the very beginning i said i was a knucklehead and was looking for advice. The advice i got directly contradicted the manufacturers instructions, as well as the advice of other professionals, and my understanding of how the process worked. 

Since that happened, all i have tried to do is confirm who was right and who was wrong. It's not my fault if you cant justify the advice that was given.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

My 3 cents, First a heater that old should be replaced, if not, a DIYER should not be taking apart the entire insides to check and replace part of a heat exchanger and replacing a gas valve with a used one from who knows where. Now you have Many $$$$ in this old unit and your getting another gas valve. You would have been much better off buying a new heater and installing it your self. Now on to the gas valve. The first thing to do is check the incoming gas pressure, after that start the heater and with it firing check the outgoing gas pressure to the burners. Then final safety checks and setup continues with the proper analyzers. 
Lots of great experienced owners, mechanics, DIYERS on here that will steer you right. COLDIRON OUT.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

Yeah i know most people would recommend replacing the heater, but even with the bad valve ($50) i'll only be out $275 total. If that gets it down the road a few more years i figure it will be worth it.

Thanks for the advice.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark said:


> The reason i used the term 'manifold pressure' was because ben'splumbing used it multiple times to describe what i was doing. I asked him to confirm that 'adjusting manifold pressure' was the correct terminology to describe what i was doing, and no one informed or corrected me otherwise.
> 
> However, above the question you are referring to, i specifically described what i was doing: (determining fire rate, adjusting gas pressure, determining if pressure regulator works)... but i called it 'adjusting the manifold pressure' like ben'splumbing did, which caused my summary to be incorrect because of the terminology.
> 
> ...


 reason i used the term manifold... is because when you turn the regulator set screw on a gas valve you change the manifold setting ..:thumbup: pressure...


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

Part of the issue here is when we respond to a particular problem, our offered solutions stay up forever for anyone to attempt whether they are capable of safely doing so or not.
Last year after I gave basic info on relighting a standing pilot, someone misinterpreted my instructions and lit on fire the plastic part of the gas valve that was embossed with the word pilot. Who would have thought!


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> reason i used the term manifold... is because when you turn the regulator set screw on a gas valve you change the manifold setting ..:thumbup: pressure...


Yes you have used various terms at different times to describe what i was doing. In that post I was explaining to beenthere why i used that term (as you did), because he specifically jumped on it to disagree with my conclusion.

Semantics aside, it doesn't change the fact that your initial opinion isn't technically accurate.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

how said:


> Part of the issue here is when we respond to a particular problem, our offered solutions stay up forever for anyone to attempt whether they are capable of safely doing so or not.


On a related note, admin can delete this thread if they want. I didn't intend for it to be a big debate, and the information i needed has been obtained.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

tireshark said:


> Yes you have used various terms at different times to describe what i was doing. In that post I was explaining to beenthere why i used that term (as you did), because he specifically jumped on it to disagree with my conclusion.
> 
> Semantics aside, it doesn't change the fact that your initial opinion isn't technically accurate.


Are you looking for help here or just want to talk terms? Just take it all in and understand there are many personality's here and many opinions. So stop trying to police every word people use and try to look at the big picture. Everyone is just trying to help.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

tireshark said:


> Yes you have used various terms at different times to describe what i was doing. In that post I was explaining to beenthere why i used that term (as you did), because he specifically jumped on it to disagree with my conclusion.
> 
> Semantics aside, it doesn't change the fact that your initial opinion isn't technically accurate.


 beenthere did not and will not agree with anyone because of what someone may say ...hes much better than that...he can and will disagree with a finding that is not right period....


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

Ok tire shark....iam going to install a new gas valve next week. When i install this valve..instruction say to check gas pressures iam wandering if i turn the regualtor set screw if that will do anthing to change the setting of the manifold gas pressure entering the heat exchanger...what you don't understand is cause and effect..while your trying to do one thing your effecting another thing and my advice to you was we don't do that without proper equiptment because it could damage the furnace and create a dangerous condition for the occupants of the home or business.....wow really...


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

In my experience if you go looking for advice on the net you have to have thick skin, be open minded and fish thru the replies and do plenty of research.

If you expect people to be polite and harmonious and write essays and be all technical you are fooling yourself. That you have to pay for and there are pay per view/answer HVAC sites also.

Lighten up OP, the info got provided and there does not need to be any expectations of quality with the answers. It is volunteering after all.

You get what you pay for.:yes:


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## oldbikes (Sep 5, 2014)

I've been watching this thread for a bit and believe it is time to weigh in.
The op asked a question and didn't really get a direct answer to his question. No one has an answer because of to many unknown facts.

Terminology in each profession makes communication difficult.

First I think everyone is confusing VOLUME With PRESSURE, Think of a garden hose if you kink it off the PRESSURE in the hose is still there, just no flow *VOLUME* .

Clocking a meter will certainly give you the VOLUME but not the pressure. We don't know if the outside meter is a low or high pressure meter, we are unsure of the gas valve that was installed, no idea of gas pipe sizing etc. All we can tell is like the garden hose if it is kinked off a little bit it will fill a 5 gallon bucket in a set amount of time we still don't know the pressure.

Manometers aren't terribly expensive and to set the PRESSURE to the manufactures specs. LISTED on the data plate some type of meter is necessary to do this.

The key to a dependable furnace is to adjust it somewhat close to what the manufacture r suggests. This assures longer life and safe dependable operation.
Sort of like saying my car rides rough so I let some air out of my tires, I don't have a tire gauge so I'll just look at them and if they are round they be fine. Then in a few miles we notice the tires are wearing quickly and we loose steering control. That is what we are trying to avoid here.
I've been wrong before at least that is what my wife tells me.

Oh ya almost forgot.. Turn the screw counter clockwise to decrease the PRESSURE, Less Pressure on a fixed orifice will decrease the VOLUME.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

oldbikes, I don't think everyone is confusing pressure with volume. Just some people that don't know and need advise. I would recommend the OP purchase a Richie 78055 Gas pressure kit to check and set the pressure.
It is a gauge calibrated in inches of water column. I think most people giving advice on this subject have been pretty clear. Your point regarding car tires was excellent. Just looking at them and thinking they have the right pressure is a no no.


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## oldbikes (Sep 5, 2014)

I'd forgot about the Richie Manometer, That would be an excellent choice for a diy.

Sorry I got on a bit of a rant it occurred to me that the ones seeking help didn't understand the tech jargon and was simply trying to clear that up.
Some actually think that if you cut the flow with the shutoff valve or other means that is how to fix the problem, This simply makes things worse.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

oldbikes said:


> Terminology in each profession makes communication difficult.
> 
> First I think everyone is confusing VOLUME With PRESSURE, Think of a garden hose if you kink it off the PRESSURE in the hose is still there, just no flow *VOLUME* .
> 
> ...


Oldbikes, thanks a lot for this... it makes it all very clear as to what is being discussed and helps me understand things better.

Also, thanks for answering the question i really wanted to know the answer to.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

COLDIRON said:


> Are you looking for help here or just want to talk terms? Just take it all in and understand there are many personality's here and many opinions. So stop trying to police every word people use and try to look at the big picture. Everyone is just trying to help.


I'm not the one that started using different terms, but they have introduced confusion due to the nature of this discussion. 

I was told something that contradicted the manufacturers instructions i have, and i have attempted to find out why. I dont think that is unreasonable behavior.

Yes, it is now a debate... but what is wrong with having a debate?




yuri said:


> In my experience if you go looking for advice on the net you have to have thick skin, be open minded and fish thru the replies and do plenty of research.
> 
> If you expect people to be polite and harmonious and write essays and be all technical you are fooling yourself. That you have to pay for and there are pay per view/answer HVAC sites also.
> 
> Lighten up OP...


Thick skin works both ways. If a person gets upset because they have to expand on, or justify, something they said, perhaps they shouldnt partake in internet forums.

Why dont you tell me what i did wrong, since you keep telling me to lighten up. It sounds like you think that if someone tells me i am wrong, i should shut up and take it because that's just how it goes here.

There have been 5 pages to justify bensplumbing's statement, and it hasn't been done as far as i can tell. I dont see whats wrong with discussing that, especially when he continues to do the same.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> Ok tire shark....iam going to install a new gas valve next week. When i install this valve..instruction say to check gas pressures iam wandering if i turn the regualtor set screw if that will do anthing to change the setting of the manifold gas pressure entering the heat exchanger...what you don't understand is cause and effect..while your trying to do one thing your effecting another thing and my advice to you was we don't do that without proper equiptment because it could damage the furnace and create a dangerous condition for the occupants of the home or business.....wow really...


But we arent talking about the total setup of the furnace for the purpose of this discussion. You guys keep trying to justify your statement by bringing up things that are independent of what we are discussing.

To my understanding, you can verify firing rate, adjust gas pressure, and test the pressure regulator by clocking the meter. How can you verify that everything else (manifold pressure, combustion composition, incoming pressure, etc.) is where it needed to be? By using your manometer, combustion analysis tools, wizard staffs, etc.

Just like the manufacturers instructions say.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Me: I am trying to check/adjust gas flow/pressure by clocking the meter.

You: Forget about clocking the meter, it's dangerous and wrong to adjust gas pressure (now referring to it as 'adjust a manifold pressure setting') that way.

Me: You said it was wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter.

You: I did not say it was wrong.

If someone can explain how this isn't a contradiction, im all ears.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

There is no debate here, debate not needed . No clocking the meter either. Just plain old experience with schooling = Gas meter readings. Clocking the meter sounds whacky. When you work on heaters you need thousands of dollars worth of equipment to check and setup properly. Not running back and forth to the meter.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

COLDIRON said:


> There is no debate here, debate not needed . No clocking the meter either. Just plain old experience with schooling = Gas meter readings. Clocking the meter sounds whacky. When you work on heaters you need thousands of dollars worth of equipment to check and setup properly. Not running back and forth to the meter.


Please. There certainly is a debate here, of which i clearly explained the points above. 

If you dont wish to partake in it, then dont click on the thread. This thread is muddled enough without people saying stuff like 'there's no debate here because that sounds whacky'. 'Sounding whacky' isn't a resolution to what is being discussed.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

tireshark said:


> Please. There certainly is a debate here, of which i clearly explained the points above.
> 
> If you dont wish to partake in it, then dont click on the thread. This thread is muddled enough without people saying stuff like 'there's no debate here because that sounds whacky'. 'Sounding whacky' isn't a resolution to what is being discussed.


I can see I stayed to long, good luck , coldiron out for good.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

ok last time... if you mess with the regulator set screw...you will change the flow/ pressure.. what ever in the hell you want to call it on your furnace...once you alter that ... you may or may not have your valve set to where it should be without proper equiptment..for me that is wrong ..for others may be ok.. I could care less i would never instruct anyone to do such a thing and rest at night....clocking a meter if your ok with it go for it ...you got enough information here to tell if its something a diy may want to do...just keep in mind most of us would not do that...Iam with coldiron out.........lets remember this is the 20th century we do have better tools and equiptment


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

ben's plumbing said:


> ok last time...


The reason you are repeating yourself is because you keep missing the point, no matter how explicitly i explain it.

Look man, i cant explain it any more clearly than i did at the bottom of this post. You said two different things in this thread -- both that it was and wasn't wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter. 

You either cant understand that, or you do understand it but dont want to admit it, so you keep talking in circles to make it look like im the one that doesnt understand things. 

So im the bad guy now... big whoop.

I had this all figured out with my summary wayyyy back on page 2 (minus the terminology mixup that you introduced) before the other guy started bringing up all the combustion/orifice stuff. Now we are almost on page 6 because you, nor no one else, will acknowledge that you have said two different things.

One more time:

Is it wrong to install a gas control valve without a manometer? Yes.

Is it wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter (like i was told)? No.

To use your own words: "i dont have to prove you wrong, you did it all by yourself"


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You can install a gas valve w/o a manometer. Happens all the time. You can then check the firing rate (NOT pressure) by meter clocking. That tells you if it is over/underfired NOT the actual pressure. Gas valves come preset for 3.5"WC from the factory. In a small percentage that may be off but that is rare. Like a Doctor checking your blood pressure we use a manometer like he uses a gauge. You do want to use a gauge to verify if it is off as proper standard operating procedures as a Pro. As a DIYer you can do whatever you want. We got another poster in Toronto manually screwing with his main gas shutoff valve to throttle gas because his furnace is overheating. Refuses to believe us also.

Once again you cannot adjust the pressure to the recommended 3.5 "WC by meter clocking as you have no gauge to verify it. You can be safe as you will know if it is overfiring. It may not be burning efficiently but very few techs do combustion tests anyway on residential units. People rely on CO detectors for safety and proper inspections by a Pro of the heat exchanger.

With meter clocking you may be running anywhere from 3.2-4.0 "WC. If it is not overfiring and tripping the limit AND is in the range of the chart for your specified btu's on the specs/model# then it is safe but NOT accurate. The readings will always be averaged and rough as the meter dials don't spin smoothly. They are for consumption not fine accuracy/testing purposes.

Meter clocking is like setting your car engine with the speedometer. The car runs up to speed and rpms shown but you do not know what the engine exactly is doing performance wise. Kinda a weak analogy but w/o proper gauges you don't really know what is going on. Enough to get by.

The reason I am going thru all this is not for you only but all the thousands of future readers of these posts and I suspect Ben and the others feel the same way.

You can get reasonably priced manometers and they are a good investment. The next unit you have will have a pressure switch and ventor fan and you may need the manometer to check the pressure switch etc. Also good to borrow to friends for favors or beer.:drink:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

tireshark said:


> T
> Is it wrong to install a gas control valve without a manometer? Yes.
> 
> Is it wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter (like i was told)? No.



If its wrong to install a gas valve without a manometer, then it has to be wrong to adjust gas pressure by only clocking the meter.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

yuri said:


> Refuses to believe us also.


That's not what is going on here. 

If you go back and look at my second post in this thread i specifically made the distinction between the terms 'flow rate' and 'pressure'... and in my fourth post i specifically was talking only about gas flow... so that shows i was aware of these concepts. 

It might surprise you (and everyone else) at this point, but i have never claimed that you could verify gas pressure by clocking the meter. I have also never disagreed with anyone that said you couldn't. Go back and look if you dont believe me. 

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this stuff like you have, and it has helped me understand it better... but the bulk of this conversation isn't really about my knowledge (or lack thereof) of these concepts... it's (again) about this:


Being told it was wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter.

Being told it wasn't wrong to adjust gas pressure by clocking the meter, by the same person.

He clearly contradicted himself, and it has lead to this mess because everyone acts like they dont know what i am talking about, even though i have very specifically and carefully explained it... and you all start arguing different concepts with me that i am not even arguing against.

Heck, it's not even about me arguing against what i initially was with him... which was that it is NOT wrong to adjust gas flow rate with the meter like he said... because HE HIMSELF later admitted it wasn't wrong.

If you want to help this train wreck of a thread, you can either comment on that or not... because everything else was pretty much worked out back on the 2nd (if not 1st) page.


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## tireshark (Aug 17, 2014)

beenthere said:


> If its wrong to install a gas valve without a manometer, then it has to be wrong to adjust gas pressure by only clocking the meter.


OH YEAH? WELL LOOKS LIKE YOU GOT A BONE TO PICK WITH BENSPLUMBING BECAUSE HE SAID IT WASN'T.

:wallbash:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

To be quite honest IMO you seem to have a problem with being "told" you are wrong or incorrect if that sounds nicer and are getting defensive for some unknown reason. If Ben had said "Sir, I believe you are incorrect" we may not be having this discussion. Because it may be perceived as blunt you seem to have an issue. ( I may be wrong as I don't like being told what to do. My Dad was a pain in the butt). We are all trying to be helpful AND keep you AND all the other future readers safe. This post is not just about you.

There is a certain Professionalism aspect here and yeah we get insulted by DIYers who call our industry crooks (Toronto comes to mind) etc etc.

It is nothing personal. There is no RIGHT way or Gestapo enforcing how to replace gas valves. Just the industry standard of using a manometer. We don't want future readers going by guess and by golly setting their furnaces by meter clocking when the proper way is to use a manometer. Meter clocking is actually a suplement to the procedure not a replacement. It is a procedure not something legal. If it was legal then we would have to record the readings and document it on every service ticket and sign it. Not a legal requirement.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Thread is now closed- it has ran it's course.


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