# Mason is adding sand to Lime Mortar Premix



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Here is video showing how fragile the mortar is. This re pointing area was done 1 week prior to video. Should it be this fragile?

http://youtu.be/AlejEMS4gDo


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Here are pictures showing where he laid some brick 3 days ago:


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Any professional advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Mason is supposed to come back today to work again and I have to decide on whether to say anything to him or not about this.


----------



## concretepumper (Jan 10, 2012)

No I would not be afraid to say anything by the end of the fist day it should be relatively hard but def. not that soft after a week. If that's how the bag says then that's how to mix it. None of this adding sand bit. Also it's not necessary to splatter the brick up. It only make the job a lot harder when your done


----------



## notmrjohn (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not a mason. Even I can tell that is very sloppy, unprofessional work.

The fact that he mixed in sand, when instructions said not to, is evidence that he doesn't know what he is doing. Did he say why he was adding more? The crumbling mortar has way to much sand in it.

Its common practice to allow a contractor to fix his errors, but I wouldn't trust this guy to carry a hod.


----------



## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm assuming he was supplying the material....hence he added sand to stretch out his mix.....


----------



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

The ASTM proportion for mortar (ASTM C270) do allow a wide range of sand because of the differences in local sands.

For all types of mortar, the volume of sand should be between 2-1/4 and 3 times the total volume of the cementitious materials (cement -any type plus hydrated lime, if any). This applies to Portland Cement Mortar Cement and Masonry Cement. This allows the sand amount to be adjusted, depending on the fineness, particle shape (round, rounded or harsh) and required consistency for the application and masonry products used.

In this project and contractor, I would worry more about the contractor's skill and workmanship.

Dick


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone that has replied so far, I really appreciate it.

1) So based on seeing how weak the mortar in the video, is this something that needs taken out and redone?

2) Also, should he be covering these areas for the first few days to allow the mortar to stay hydrated?


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Mason is back out today with his workers and I mentioned to him my dissatisfaction with the quality of work so far. I brought up the points about the mortar being so weak after 1 week, it just crumbles to dust when pushed on. He verified this by running the point of his trowel over mortar joints and it just fell out. He got all PO'd when I told him I talked to the technical director of LimeWorks (where he purchased the mortar) and he said that he does not like being checked up on.

Anyway to make long story short, he says he is going to fix it, but after seeing his workers so far today in attempting to fix it, I am less than convinced. He is not following any of the requirements I have been told (from lime mortar manufacturer) that need to be done when working with lime mortar such as: 1) Pre-wetting the brick prior to pointing 2) Covering the new mortar for the first few days to keep moisture in to cure 3) He is adding 5 gallon bucket of sand per 38.5lb bag of mortar mix that is already mixed at a ratio of 1 part lime / 2.5 parts sand, he insisted this is ok.

My questions are:

1) He has been paid 30% of contract amount so far, do you guys think it is fair to withhold the balance the contract until the job is complete and mortar is somehow verified it is curing properly?

2) How can I "test" the mortar to see if it is curing/cured properly?

3) Should I wet down the mortar every night to keep it moist?


I really appreciate all the advice. Thanks!


----------



## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Looks a really rough job to me. He's lucky to get 30% for that 'work'.
Lime pointing shouldn't be a sloppy mix. A good way to finish flush pointing is with a churn brush which allows the joints to breathe better and show the aggregate.


----------



## notmrjohn (Aug 20, 2012)

" he does not like being checked up on." Of course no one really likes being checked up on, but that is what you do when you check references. And no one doing honest decent work should get PO'd when work is checked by someone else. If the mortar does not seem to be curing properly to you, it probably isn't. Part of the masons job is to tell you if you need to do anything when he isn't there, such as moisten mortar. If he did not tell you to do so, don't. He will blame problems on your doing so.

Withholding any more payments is wise idea and standard practice is no final payment untill job is done satisfactorily. *You* are the boss here,* you* decide if job is done right, *you* can do all checking you want, *you* caneven bring in another mason to check work.* I* think *you* should tell *him* and crew to take a hike. ( That getting PO'd at your checking is not a good sign.


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks guys.... Well he finished up for the day today and cleaned up an entire side of garage with some 600 grit cleaner to show me how it would look and it took the sloppy mortar splatter on face of brick off. He also repointed certain areas of walls that had that weak mortar in it. He says he got it all, but I am not so sure yet without checking everywhere.

Even though he admitted to me (in the morning) that he was adding a full 5 gallon bucket of sand to each bag of mortar mix, he changed his story later on in the day and said he only added more sand to the mix used for repointing, not to the mix used for rebuilding the pier. He got the pier done today and it is setting up now.

He pressured another draw out of me today saying I have no proof that it was done wrong and everything is good, so I caved in and made another 30% payment. I will not make any more payments until job is complete now, I can guarantee you that.

At this point, after he cleaned up the messy pointing his workers did, appearance wise it is acceptable to me. My biggest concern is the durability of the mortar itself as I cannot trust his word that he will fix it later if it fails.

How long does lime mortar take to cure? Anyway I can do a little test to it to see if it's curing properly?


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

stuart45 said:


> Looks a really rough job to me. He's lucky to get 30% for that 'work'.
> Lime pointing shouldn't be a sloppy mix. A good way to finish flush pointing is with a churn brush which allows the joints to breathe better and show the aggregate.


I could add my own opine to the pics & questions posed so far, but I'd rather just refer you to this "brickie" from the other side of the pond, as he's know's his stuff about lime mortar repairs. Make sure to listen to his advice closely..........:thumbsup:


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm about to kill the mason, I swear.... Came home today to check things out and there's a pile of portland laying on the ground inside the garage, about 150-200 lbs... There is no reason this should be here on this job unless those numbnut workers are adding it to the mix... He is the one that told me at the beginning (when he bid the job) to not add ANY portland to the lime mortar mix..... This is getting absolutely ridiculous, I paid this guy ALOT of money and I should not have to be babysitting....

So how bad is this guys?


----------



## notmrjohn (Aug 20, 2012)

"I'm about to kill the mason" Change word kill to fire, then do it. Aside from quality of work in pics and you've described, I don't like his attitude. He is using arrogance to cover his shadyness. Trustworthy craftsman doesn't mind telling you what he is planning, what he is doing and why. Most don't mind teaching you a little something about their skill so you can do simple things..
I dunno what the portland is for, but it can break soft bricks, at least distort the wall by pushing them out of place.

You've already overpaid this guy. I'm used to a schedule closer to 25% at a time, slightly behind work completion schedule. With trusted subs I might go higher up front for materials and initial crew salary. More often I pay suppliers directly for materials. Crew deserves to be paid, even if boss is an idiot. Aside from you getting hit with workman's lien. Which can happen anyway if contractor is a jerk and takes his cut B4 paying crew. Contractor's cut, his salary and profit should come after job is approved. When I was contracting, my wages were lowest of intire crew while job was ongoing.


----------



## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Not sure why any mason would EVER use a premix. Its all junk. ALL OF IT.

1: ANY mortar installed should be pretty much ROCK hard the next day. If its soft and crumbly, then its wrong and should be replaced. Prob because they added too much water which weakened the mix. 

2: I see they made quite a mess. Easy fix with a muratic acid wash. A skilled mason would not make that mess tho. 

3: You prob went with the cheapest masonry contractor that came out there?. You fault blame yourself, you ALWAYS get what you pay for. 

Sorry for your whoes. Im usually the contractor that comes behind these bums and fixes their mistakes. DEMAND what you feel you deserve and do not for any second settle for less. You worked hard for your money. They should not get away with sub standard work. 

GL


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TRUEPRO said:


> Not sure why any mason would EVER use a premix. Its all junk. ALL OF IT.
> 
> On many big commercial jobs, you wouldn't have a choice, as pre-mixes are specced out, and they're not junk in most cases. Besides, did you read that it was a special lime mortar from a reputable supplier?
> 
> ...



...................


----------



## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Obviously this premix is junk. You cant argue that. Iv built schools and government buildings. Never used a premix. EVER. I dont care how reputable ANY dealer is. 

Why in the world would you use a "SPECIAL" premix for a repair job? Theres you first problem. This ISNT a big commercial job. Keep it simple

Best advice for homeowner: Dont let these idiots on your property.


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

TRUEPRO said:


> Obviously this premix is junk. You cant argue that. Iv built schools and government buildings. Never used a premix. EVER. I dont care how reputable ANY dealer is.
> 
> You've "built schools & government buildings", and you never worked under a silo?????:huh:
> 
> ...


He already paid them a substantial amount............


----------



## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

TRUEPRO'
You might have missed the bit about him using a lime mortar
Lime mortar from dealers often comes as a premix. It should have the correct amount and type of sand added.
Lime mortar shouldn't be rock hard the next day. The joints are often left to the next day before the churn brush is put over them.


----------



## stevekem (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks again everyone for your help. Actually this guy I hired was the 2nd most expensive out of all bids and the ONLY one that insisted pure lime mortar must be used. All the other guys either insisted on adding some Portland to the mix or using straight Portland based mix. I even had 1 guy that said he will make it as strong as he possibly can as he was always taught the mortar should be much stronger than the brick, obviously I didn't hire that guy....

I would love to fire this guy but since he already has 60% of the contract amount (totally my fault) I have no choice but to work with him to get this done. He had his guys grind out the weak mortar that was used in repointing and put new in without any extra sand added (that I know of). It seems harder now so I'm hoping its fixed.

Regarding the pile of portland he brought, when I questioned him about it he said it was in his buckets and he needed to wash down brick with 600 grit cleaner, so they dumped it there and were planning to throw it out when they clean up. Again I am not sure if I believe him or not....

Now I went out to check up more thoroughly on their work and noticed that alot of the bricks where they rebuilt the pier and bricked in a man door (1/2 done) are all crooked in areas. Even my existing bricks that were not touched and are 80+ years old are more straight than this "new" work.

I am so thoroughly disgusting with this guy that I cannot even put it into words on how mad I am. Then I find out from one of the workers that 2 of them are not even masons (big surprise there) and that they are actually electricians that can't find too much work so they started doing masonry jobs with this company.

So now again I have to decide on whether to say anything about the crooked bricks or just let it go. If I bring it up now I have a feeling he will walk and I will be left with an unfinished job and not enough money to hire someone to finish it. But if I let it go, I will be constantly reminded of much this guy screwed me over.....


----------



## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Pre-bagged lime mixes are most assuredly not junk, nor are most commercial grade pre-mix portland/lime or masonry mixes. That is not the problem. Most likely this mason is not familiar with working with lime mortar, especially an NH type. It should have a good set within a week, if not make him take it out and do it right.

I have not found that more sand helped while tuckpointing, nor does excess water. I have also never heard of cleaning with any type of grit material, how does that work and not damage the face of the brick.

At this point, there being no standards and specifications in the contract (I assume), then there is not much you can do but let him finish, then pursue legal options to rectify the situation.


----------



## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> I I have also never heard of cleaning with any type of grit material, how does that work and not damage the face of the brick.


There is one exception to this Tscar. When an arch is built in gauged brickwork with soft rubbing bricks, the face is usually finished off by rubbing with a piece of carborundum stone to clean it up.
However brickwork shown here it does not apply.


----------

