# Way in over my head



## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

I recently purchased a very large 1940's brick three story home. Long story short the inspector missed almost everything and now I am living in "total chaos" and dont know where to start.

Replaced roof that leaked at chimney into first floor ceiling. I now need to replace the entire ceiling in the living room which is plaster and measures 24x20. 

I am nervous about ripping it down because I have four children and they recently found asbestos throughout the entire home. Not to mention white mold and dry rot in the basement.

The foundation is currently supported with extra posts until I can get the floor joists replaced.
Also the attic, where three of the bedrooms are located is partially finished and is not insulated very well and gets very cold. Alot of the insulation I had to remove due to water damage and black mold. The roof has just been completed so now I am trying to figure out where to start. 

Funds are very limited due to all the unexpected problems that have come up in the last 9 months. I am really concerned with the mold and asbestos, . I was told as long as I leave the asbestos alone undisturbed it will be ok. 

The contractor that did the roof was suppose to get back with me about insulation and venting in the attic and has yet to do so. I could go on all day with the numerous problems but I will save them for a later time. 

Where do I start and what type of insulation would be best for the cathedral ceilings in the attic for a reasonable price. What about the process for redoing the ceiling and waterproofing in the future? Please help I am in panic mode.:help:


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

*oops*

Forgot to spell check:laughing:


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Did the realitor suggest the inspector, or did you hire them?
Oh the joys of buying an older house. These are all normal things to find wrong in any old house.
What I have done before is work as a consultant for people in your situation. They do the labor and I just set up prioritys and let them know what tools to use, safety rules, and how to do the job.
With the economy the way it is you may be able to find a GC willing to take a look.
Offer to pay him, all his know how is going to be worth it.


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

joecaption said:


> What I have done before is work as a consultant for people in your situation. They do the labor and I just set up prioritys and let them know what tools to use, safety rules, and how to do the job.


Agreed. You need an overall **plan** that addresses everything that needs to be done along with the things that you would like to be done and describing the proper and best (code) ways to actually get those things done... *in a logical sequence*.

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all...
but worse is bouncing around like a pinball doing jobs that can either wait or should be done along with some other process.

hth


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Good point, if your trying to live in the house while this works is going on try to work on one room at a time or you all will go nuts.
Three very important things to take care of in any old house if they have not been done before is total rewiring from the pole to the meter to all the outlets and lights. Sealing all the holes to stop air leaks behind the walls, insulating, and replacement windows.
By taking care of these things your heating and cooling bills would go down at least 25%, the house is worth more, be far more comfortable to live in, less of a fire hazzard from old wiring, more outlet.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

You have received a lot of good advice here. I might add that by having the roof DONE, you have a major obstacle out of the way. Normally, your next step would be to open up the plastered walls so you could rid your house of asbestos and upgrade your wiring, if needed, and insulate properly. Unfortunately, you will likely need an asbestos abatement company to remove any plaster, insulation, etc that may contain asbestos or even lead. This can be very costly, so as Joe & Tarheel have hinted at, take a deep breath, make a sequential plan, and attack it ONE ROOM AT A TIME as time and money allow. In the long run, it does take more of your time, but to balance out the costs of what you are doing, a ONE ROOM AT A TIME plan may be the way to go.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

One room at a time, and really there is no need to pull the ceiling. As for the HI, there is no way that they will see the in the wall, buried under concrete issues, etc, unless they have the proper tools, which can somewhat help, but not do everything.

I would review the contract and see if there is any chance that you can have the sellers help pick up the costs, especially if there was not full disclosure, or was this a foreclosure through a bank.


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## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

You can drywall a ceiling over the existing lath and plaster. Just take the time to locate the joists and mark their position on the top of the walls.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

One suggestion....you might want to contact the insurance company to see if any damage claims were made on the house....then compare that information to the disclosure statement. Basically, the seller has to disclose any 'known' issues at the time of sale. 

Any attempted insurance claim is proof they knew about the issue but didn't disclose it. And while I'm very anit-lawsuit inclinned, if something like this happens...then a lawyer is very much called for.

I would get out the disclosure statement right now and go through it....


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments.
I knew I was looking at a long journey just didn't know how long. The house had set empty for over a year before I bought it and no disclosures. No luck with previous insurance claims either.

The roof started leaking 10 days after we moved in (caused by a storm) the insurance company took 8 months to cover that but didn't want to cover much of anything else. 

When the other things came up like the ceiling, mantle and wall by the fireplace being wet, they just keep putting me off. I already have plans for rewire mostly because the unfinished part of the attic did not have electrity at all and the old knob and tube has to go. 

Windows were already replaced and all openings(that I could see) were sealed as for insulation I am still working on that. So I am looking at hiring someone to come in and give me a plan and suggest the best way to handle it all. I am still overwhelmed by it all and I want to do it right cause I can see us living here for a long time.


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## jeremybrooks (Jan 5, 2012)

I feel your pain. We bought a house dating from the 1930's six years ago, and there has been one project after another ever since. Still have two rooms with no walls, and have not touched the bathroom/kitchen yet. 

A room at a time. And on the bright side, you will learn all kinds of stuff along the way.


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## jstar571 (Dec 18, 2011)

I bought a house that was built in the "1900s", slate roof and plaster walls. I had the house inspected like I was told. The inspector missed the leaking roof, gas leak from heater, and basement water.

I got roof and heat fixed NOW but it has added unexpected costs. I'm now attempting to fix my basement walls. The mortor is coming loose and exposing rock


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Being a first time home buyer I wish I would have been able to see some of the problems but I probally would have still purchached the house. My mother likes to continually tell me "I told you so". But it is beautiful has has tremendous character. I just get frustrated daily because progress is so slow. I am very disappointed in all the extra "improvements" and am very saddened that it is taking way more time to get it where I want it. I maybe crazy but we still love this house and God willing we will eventually be able to fully enjoy it.


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

fessner said:


> I am very disappointed in all the extra "improvements" and am very saddened that it is taking way more time to get it where I want it.


Avoid thinking about time in increments of hours or days or even weeks and months... 
you have something that will require YEARS to get through.

This isn't bad... it just is.

Step back, take a deep breath, think, mull, contemplate, seek advice...
then (and only then) start making a PLAN. 

Once you have a plan... then you can start chipping away at the work.
Do so in an orderly fashion as you watch the time (and your savings) melt away.

Enjoy every minute of it.


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## Canucker (May 5, 2011)

TarheelTerp said:


> Avoid thinking about time in increments of hours or days or even weeks and months... you have something that will require YEARS to get through.
> 
> This isn't bad... it just is.
> 
> ...


This is good advice, heed it. Especially the "years" part. And be aware that these old houses are like icebergs. You'll see the surface problem but it may be much larger once you start to look underneath. Don't let it discourage you though, because when you're done, it won't be a cookie cutter house, it'll be up to modern code and you'll quite possibly have the satisfaction of doing it yourself. It will be what you want and that, to me, is priceless


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## Ironlight (Apr 13, 2011)

First of all, every old house has warts. As you progress through repairs and updates to it they will start to seem less daunting as you gain skill and insight. How handy are you? Are you posting here because you're working on the house yourself or planning to, or just trying to get some feed back on what's important to tackle first? There is a real pleasure to working on an old house and fixing it up yourself. You just need to have patience and have confidence in the fact that you'll get there.

When tackling repairs to an old house like this you usually move in sequence, from structural/mechanical issues that you need to address to make the dwelling safe and weather proof. Then you move to those things that will increase your comfort and the efficiency of the house, and then you move on to aesthetic things.

Clearly you started in the right place with the roof. It sounds like your next step should be the structural issues in the basement, depending on their severity. Repairing joists and other structural wood is not that difficult provided you have the right plan and the right tools. Posting a few pictures of the areas in question would help us to provide you with advice and guidance. Regarding the attic, you said cathedral ceilings...do you actually mean eaves, in that the attic was (partially) converted into livable space and you now have knee walls (low @ 3' walls) that meet the roofline which becomes your ceiling? If that is the case your options are limited. Ideally you'd rip out the drywall and do foam insulation but foam is expensive and so is the removal and replacement of the drywall. All your good options, as far as effective insulation that allows allows the roof to vent, are going to require you to remove the drywall for installation. A couple of pictures of the space would really help us to make recommendations that are actually applicable to your situation. One thing to consider, and perhaps you already experienced it...converted attics like that in a three story house can turn into furnaces in the summer. Another reason to consider proper insulation and venting.

As far as the ceiling downstairs goes, sounds like that is largely aesthetic, depending on the extent of the damage. You should have a piece of the ceiling tested to confirm whether it contains asbestos as the cost difference for removal of that will be considerable. Your home is built right around the time they were using asbestos in the walls but there were other fibers that were used to reinforce plaster on top of lathe so you really ought to have it tested so you know for sure what you're dealing with. You said "they found asbestos throughout the entire home". I assume that was a seller's disclosure? Was it specific about location? Certainly not unusual to find it used as insulation in various places, like pipe wraps in the basement. And yes, if you don't touch asbestos it can be harmless. Another option is sealing it up. In your case, you might consider putting a new drywall ceiling right on the existing ceiling. This is commonly done and is a fairly straightforward project, even if your existing ceiling is detached from the joists above and sagging


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## Perry525 (Jan 10, 2010)

The important thing is that white asbestos is harmless!
It will not do anything to make you or your family develop lung cancer!
Blue asbestos used in ships and factories is dangerous and must be left alone, it must be removed by one of the licensed companies who specialize in its removal.

The rules regarding asbestos are aimed at people who work with asbestos on a daily basis.

Your exposure, when you come to remove it will be very short.

May I mention that the world is covered in air that contains asbestos, we all breath it every day and come to no harm.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Overwhelmed is something many people experience, including some contractors, if they look at the over all picture at once. The one room at a time is good advice and you can go on living in the rest of the house and remodel as you want. 

There is no magic to renovating an older home, it is work, sometimes dirty work and done systematic. If you start doing a little here and a little there your house will be torn up in a lot of places and you will really get frustrated, don't jump around, start one room and finish it. One thing you will learn in an older home is patience, like it or not. One thing to remember is, you _*can*_ do this, if you don't know how, there is the internet and books out there with all kinds of information, then we are here also. Make this a fun project and it will go faster for you.


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## Ironlight (Apr 13, 2011)

Perry525 said:


> The important thing is that white asbestos is harmless!
> It will not do anything to make you or your family develop lung cancer!
> Blue asbestos used in ships and factories is dangerous and must be left alone, it must be removed by one of the licensed companies who specialize in its removal.


It's not true that chrysotile, or "white" asbestos is harmless. It is simply less toxic than the more dangerous varieties. There are documented cases of occupational exposure to chrysotile linked to mesothelioma.



Perry525 said:


> The rules regarding asbestos are aimed at people who work with asbestos on a daily basis.
> 
> Your exposure, when you come to remove it will be very short.


This is in fact true although I'm loathe to mention it here on these forums for fear of getting jumped on for advocating taking risks.

There are in fact NO documented cases of mesothelioma caused by asbestos in people who did not work occupationally with asbestos. In other words, no home owner ever got sick from yanking out some asbestos. 

All that said, if there is asbestos in your home you should approach it's removal with a healthy dose of education, caution and adequate safety preparations. There may be local regulations regarding what you can do yourself, disposal, etc. that you should be sure to educate yourself on as a first step if you decide to remove it.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Ironlight thanks for your comments. I am working on posting photos. I have a minimal experience but have quite a few family and friends with varing skill levels to help as well. I have searched foam insulation in depth. I believe that is what I am going to go with. The part of the attic I am concerned with has 20 foot from floor to joists and is bare bones. the wall is framed for 10 foot ceiling but I would like to continue it past and reframe as needed. I will post pics in the next couple of days. I started the post on a morning after being up all night searching and "thinking" so I guess I was looking for some guidance and reassurance. Which I did get! Also being a female in my experience lately I have had some "professionals" who have tried to take advantage. I was in a bad place mentally that morning. 
My friends often joke that I am the "power tool queen" I have built, refinished remodeled furniture and various parts of homes before. I know I am capable. I'm just looking for advice and encouragement.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

abracaboom said:


> You can drywall a ceiling over the existing lath and plaster. Just take the time to locate the joists and mark their position on the top of the walls.


This ^^^^ = For the ceiling plaster repair.

As suggested. This would be the way to go. Use 3/8" Sheetrock (1/4" tends to show old ceiling ripples, humps, dips, etc. - more). 
We have done this so many times, I cannot remember how many ceilings....

If you have chunks, or areas of old plaster that fell-out, simply install same sized (and same thickness sheetrock) into the area(s), before overlaying the ceiling.

Its a permanant repair process. BTW = it works with old plaster walls too (again = done it many, many, many times.....)


No tear off, no dust, no additional labor or old ceiling debris.


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## Ironlight (Apr 13, 2011)

fessner said:


> Ironlight thanks for your comments. I am working on posting photos. I have a minimal experience but have quite a few family and friends with varing skill levels to help as well. I have searched foam insulation in depth. I believe that is what I am going to go with. The part of the attic I am concerned with has 20 foot from floor to joists and is bare bones. the wall is framed for 10 foot ceiling but I would like to continue it past and reframe as needed. I will post pics in the next couple of days. I started the post on a morning after being up all night searching and "thinking" so I guess I was looking for some guidance and reassurance. Which I did get! Also being a female in my experience lately I have had some "professionals" who have tried to take advantage. I was in a bad place mentally that morning.
> My friends often joke that I am the "power tool queen" I have built, refinished remodeled furniture and various parts of homes before. I know I am capable. I'm just looking for advice and encouragement.


Snav where are you! Fessner, if you think gender is any impediment you should check out _Snav's thread_ on her renovations to her home. Lately she's been building kitchen cabinets from scratch with limited tools and making them look fantastic. She's an inspiration.

I would caution you about making a cathedral ceiling on the third floor of an old house, or at least thinking hard about it and understanding the pros and cons. Leaving an unconditioned space above your living area has it's benefits with respect to insulation. We had no attic in our last house, the previous owners having opened it up to make a cathedral ceiling. It made the house very hot in summer up there, and you're also going to lose more heat in the winter. In addition, if the house does not have central air and you ever intend to add it, having an attic where you can run ducting and place an air handler will make it much MUCH less costly to install. If you're not going to add central air then it is the logical place for a whole house fan as well. I'm sure others might chime in with other factors that will bear on your decision.

All this stuff may seem overwhelming to you, but at the end of the day it's not rocket science. It's simply knowledge and experience, both of which can be acquired. And these boards are a fabulous resource for learning and getting advice. All of the issues that you've mentioned thus far are fairly pedestrian (i.e. commonly encountered and relatively straight-forward to deal with).

And pictures help a huge amount. The quality of useful feedback and advice you get will go up exponentially. So bring 'em on!


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

I feel bad for the children having to go thru this.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Please don't feel bad for my kids. They are the only ones that have bedrooms and a bathroom that are complete. Of course that was the very first thing I did. Lol Plus they are super excited about helping me and the fact they don't have to bunk together is enough. I have to elaborate again the house is huge and most of it is outdated but livable. We just don't access the problem areas and that's my problem I want to. Currently my bedroom is in the library so I want to finish the attic so I can actually have a bedroom. And rearrage the other rooms to suit me better.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)




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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Pics of what is hopefully going to be the masterbed/bath in the attic. I don't know if I took the right angles?? Need to insulate then drywall. Thinking now maybe a tray ceiling??


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

fessner said:


> Pics of what is hopefully going to be the masterbed/bath in the attic.


Very cool space!
Will you be including a master bathroom up there as well?



> Need to insulate then drywall.


Be CERTAIN that you provide airflow from the eaves 
(behind the insulation) to the space up above the new room.

And be sure that whatever work the roof needs...
as well as whatever you might consider adding or changing (like DWV vents and exhaust duct outlets, etc) is done before closing in the new space.

ps your pics are fine.
Start a webpage and photobucket them too.


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## Ironlight (Apr 13, 2011)

fessner those are very helpful, thanks a bunch for posting them.

So, the top of that new framing is at 10'? You mentioned something to that effect earlier and I wanted to confirm what we are looking at. If so, I would definitely consider NOT putting in cathedral ceilings for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. But it really comes down to what kind of space you want and your willingness to live with various compromises either way. It would certainly be less expensive to do a tray ceiling...both in terms of the construction as well as the insulation as you could then simply insulate the ceiling joists with much less expensive roxul or fiberglass batts, or cellulose for a bit more.

I'm a little uneasy with what I see with that insulation stuff hard up against the underside of the roof in the first picture. There needs to be room for air to circulate back there. If it were me I would pull the insulation off and then just insulate the new walls and ceiling. Otherwise you'll be heating unfinished spaces that you don't even have access to (eaves between roof and walls).

Looks like a very cool house even just from those photos. It must be enormous if that is the third floor/attic. Would love to see photos of the rest of it at some point.

You might want to consider consulting with an architect as they specialize in making good use of space and they'll be able to outline (very roughly) the relative expense of various options. It may seem like an unnecessary expense but a good plan gets you off to a good start.

Make sure you put a pull-down stair up to the attic so you can access it. If you do plan on putting in central air at some point you might lay some groundwork for that in terms of chases for venting and making sure the attic is accessible to a crew installing an air handler.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes the house is large. Those pics are part of what will be the master badroom. The master bath is off the other side. The insulation was already there and I am still working on pulling it and replacing it. There are four other rooms up there that someone attempted to complete with somekind of flimsy wall covering. I am tempted to gut the whole thing and start over. I was going to just drywall but the layout is kind of odd. I said I am a little overwhelmed being so many parts to complete.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Ironlight are you saying put in a pull down staincase to get above the "new" attic?


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Bravo Fessner !!! You can certainly do this. The biggest hurdle is getting over fear. You will gain more confidence with each step and it is sooo empowering.
Be proud of your accomplishments and don't let the skeptics get to you. If THEY can do it, so can you.
There is a ton of really knowledgeable folks around here that you can lean on.
Like Ironlight said, Check out Snav's posts...she has little ones and shes doing amazing stuff
You are giving your kids a very powerful message and thats awesome!!!


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

Snav where are you! Fessner, if you think gender is any impediment you should check out _Snav's thread_ on her renovations to her home. Lately she's been building kitchen cabinets from scratch with limited tools and making them look fantastic. She's an inspiration.

I was not saying that being a female is an impediment I was just stating the fact that recently I have had male "professionals" trying to convince me that a "girl" could not complete any of the projects I consulted them for. I was looking for advice and quotes and they pretty much insulted my intelligence.


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## fessner (Jan 3, 2012)

I am also wondering what do you think about leaving the exposed brick? What about re framing to the 3ft knee walls so I can use the extra space where those 10 ft walls are. I need to get it cleaned up a bit and take more pics. I work full time plus raising 4kids and a husband lol. My husband thinks I am nuts and wants to hire out for everything, but I know I can do a lot of it for a lot cheaper. Also he refuses to work on any project with me because he says it will lead to divorce. He must know, he just stays out of the way and then is completely blown away with completed projects. Not that he has no faith he just underestimates my bullheadedness. When I finally set my mind to something I will complete it, I just have a very hard time making up my mind.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

[quote
I have had male "professionals" trying to convince me that a "girl" could not complete any of the projects I consulted them for. I was looking for advice and quotes and they pretty much insulted my intelligence.[/quote]


Good luck getting away from that kind of thinking...its rampant. Just don't let it get to you. I'm also a woman with little ones.

Sincerely speaking though, for the greater part, the men around here do not have sexist attitudes.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

fessner said:


> Ironlight are you saying put in a pull down staincase to get above the "new" attic?


You will need access to your attic in some way as fire code calls for it. But if you plan to have AC components in the attic it would sure be nice to have a pull down for the ease of getting equipment up and down.


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