# Heat Pump Thermostat Replacement



## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Here are pictures of relevant to my issue:


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Final pics:


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hello. If your issue truly stems from a faulty thermostat—and there is no other issue—then I have numerous thoughts regarding a thermostat selection and pros and cons of automatically disabling the HP vs. your manually determining when to switch to aux heat (some thermostats can even disable your heat pump at a certain outdoor temperature without the need to install a thermostat at your heat pump). However; I would be skeptical of making a decision solely on a HVAC specialist’s suspicion about a faulty thermostat. 

Regardless, if I were utilizing a non-digital thermostat I would replace it for several factors, most of which would provide the end result of a more efficiently-controlled system. But if I were in your position right now I would understand that replacing the t-stat may NOT remedy the issue. 

You remarked that your house rarely heats above 66 regardless of your set temperature. Have you purposely called for a set temperature by, say, 7+ degrees above the actual temperature? And if so do you know that aux heat activates? And if it does activate will your house still not warm above 66? 

These are a few initial thoughts. Best Regards.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

I had similar thoughts as in replacing the thermostat may not fix my issue but have determined it would still be wise to do so for other efficiency reasons just as you stated. My other thought is that if I do replace the stat it would remove a variable and if I must hire yet another tech it will hopefully lead to a proper diagnosis.

I have cranked the temp well above a 7 degree difference and it makes no difference when it is cold outside. On warmer days I can get the interior near 70. I suspect the second stage is not getting called for properly. However, if set in emergency only it will send out air - though only luke warm when I tested it last night for about 10 minutes which may not have been long enough to warm the elements(?). The first did did confirm the four elements do work when in emergency by use of a clamp meter.

All that being said, I think something else is wrong and I've spent $165 on professfionals and have gotten nowhere.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

I was plagued with mechanical issues from our system after building a home in 2007, which led me down a long, painful path of research—not by choice nor because I didn’t want to trust HVAC specialists, but rather because I simply was unable to stumble upon a knowledgeable, accurate resource. If you were curious, you could place a thermometer in, or at one of your registers and plot temperatures at various intervals (when only your heat pump is operating and also during calls for aux heat). For my system, I can get approximately 100 degrees from the heat pump at a register near the air handler with an outside temperature of 20. When the electric strips kick on I get varying temperatures up-to 145 at the same register. 

I don’t pretend to know what data is needed nor how to calculate performance characteristics from a heat pump but our initial installation did include an outdoor thermostat and it was set at 30 degrees (meaning the heat pump would be disabled at any outdoor temperature below 30). I learned enough to recognize our system would operate efficiently at temperatures considerably less than 30. In fact, I installed energy-consumption monitors and plotted energy usage comparisons between the HP and electric strips. In my feeble mind, I’m convinced that our HP operates effectively and efficiently at outdoor temperatures of approximately 15 degrees. At these lower temperatures, however, I adjust temperature setbacks accordingly. For instance, at overnight temperatures of 35 I can lower my indoor set temp by 4 degrees and do a 4 degree recovery in the morning and can do so quickly enough and efficiently. With an outdoor temp of 15 I may do an overnight setback of only 1 degree or not reduce the temp by any amount. With outdoor temperatures at single digits, as painful it is, I realize I cannot use the heat pump and I switch to aux heat only. 

My Ecobee thermostat offers a wealth of customization. I can control when and if the aux heat will activate and I can use varying criteria to make that determination, such as outdoor temp, difference between actual indoor temp and set temp and heat pump run time. I can even set when to engage 2’nd stage aux heat over 1’st stage aux heat. This same thermostat is web-based and uses my local zip code to determine my outdoor temperature—and it is that data that allows me to choose if and when to disable my heat pump (negating a need for the outdoor t-stat at the HP). In my mind, if the outdoor temperature is low enough that the HP cannot at least maintain the indoor set temp then it has lost enough efficiency that I have it set to disable rather than continue running along with the aux heat. Since this t-stat is web-based I can also log-on and monitor my output temperature and review runtime (in addition to making set point temp changes). 

Since you recognize there could still exist some other issue I do not disagree with replacing the thermostat. It would be a shame, though, if something bazar occurred such as it having not been wired properly and the reversing valve isn’t in the correct position for heat demand. If you have any reservations about replacing the t-stat, you can hone-in on a couple choices and go to the respective web site(s) and download their installation sheets. But since you removed covers at your existing t-stat and HP I would not be surprised that you could do it yourself. Best of luck.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

With that air handler, with all 4 elements on the air coming out of the registers should be very warm to hot. Unless you have uninsulated duct work running through a cold basement or crawlspace. All the elements should be on in less then 10 minutes.

I think the first tech didn't really check all the elements. He may have heard the sequencers click, but not checked to see if each set of elements was actually on. I believe your air handler has thermal limits for each element that may be stuck open from over heating due to low air flow.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

What's the discharge temp of the air handler when the house temp falls to 66?


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

My stat is an ecobee, my boss loves the sensi. Ecobee having a wealth of info and settings, the sensi being very simple to use, cheap and has enough options. The nest is in between in price and has a super simple interface. The pro 6000 or 8000 series can have a lot of features but the above 3 are better for different reasons. 

Enough on my humble opinions of thermostats, I too don't believe that the stat is the real reason of the problem. Firstly, the blades of that disconnect have seen better days. I'd look for a replacement, but it's not peculiarly urgent. 

Secondly, we have to confirm that your heat strips are coming on. If you leave that disconnect out, switch the system on, and switch it to emergency heat. You should get heat, and the supply air should be fairly warm. If you have a thermometer, let us know the temperature of the house and the supply air. If you have a clamp multimeter, you can test if the elements are on too. Be careful though, often there is plenty of chance to touch electricity. 

The pink wire in the air handler doesn't look like it's connected to anything. Is it? I think it's the E from the stat. Also w2 or w3 are not hooked up. I don't see how the system would switch to heat strips at all. W1 is hooked up, so there's that, but I do believe something is missing there. I'm going through the manual. 



Cheers!


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## sktn77a (May 11, 2009)

The beauty of those old mechanical thermostats is that there is little, if anything to go wrong. Take off the cover and watch the two stages (HP and then electric strip) kick in. If they kick in , then the problem is unlikely to be the thermostat. I think your problem lies elsewhere. You might want to get a third opinion from a reliable and knowledgeable professional. Go to HVACtalk dot com to find one.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

After looking through the manuals, w1 will bring on the first stage element. There needs to be a jumper from r to w2 and w3, or to a stat. Please verify that the jumper exists. If it doesn't, you'll have to add one. This will allow the sequencer to do its job. 

If your outdoor unit has an accessory with the part number 45f08, "compressor low ambient cutoff", then it will shut off itself when it's too cold. Otherwise we can recommend other options. 

Cheers!


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Sorry for the delay on responding guys. Out to dinner and movie with the wife.

A lot to digest here and thank you all for offering help.

A few thoughts/reaponses:

I've never measured the delivered air temp as I do not have any tool for that. The only thermost at a we have are used for human illness. Maybe should invest in one. But I've never felt the air be hot - only luke warm. 

I can confirm the tech did measure each element as I watched him place the meter on 4 separate wires but the system was in emergency heat. I hadn't thought about pulling the disconnect and calling for enough heat to trip the second mercury tube/second stage to see if I get heat. I will try this tomorrow and see if anything happens. 

I also saw the capped e wire and was confused. I asked about this to a third tech on the phone and be said that W1 would be first stage and Y1 would be second stage but I don't see that going anywhere either. Maybe the wiring is faulty and if so I'll be setting myself up for failure if I try to replace the stat on my own.

I'm not sure if I have any accessories on the heat pump that would trigger it to turn off when too cold... what you see is what you get in the pictures. But it was very cold here in NE Ohio early last week and it ran the entire time so I doubt it has any such instrument. 

Forgive me, but the term 'jumper" is new to me. After searching, that appears to mean to connect to wires. What, and where, should I be looking for to confirm a jump?

I'll check out that other site and look into hiring another professional. It is frustrating to see money go to waste so I hope the next one is intelligent, experienced, and can sort this out.

Thanks again for all of the help.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

I would not try and save money on a thermostat.... especially with a heat pump.

Heat pumps with heat strips can save you a lot of money if properly controlled, but they can also cost you a lot of money if not properly controlled, and that control comes from the thermostat.

The trick is to properly control at which points the heat strips are allowed to run and high end thermostats offer pretty serious level of control over the heat strips. The honeywell 8000 series or I would even go one notch higher and go for the Honeywell prestige 2 IAQ.

These thermostats will allow you to precisely control the heat strips in order to maximize the run time on the heat pump because that's where the savings is. As far as I know there isn't another stat aside from the high end Honeywell's which gives you the kind of detail you need to properly control the heat strips.

I would also suggest you check the specs on your heat pump because it will most likely operate just fine below 30 degrees in which case you are locking it out too early and costing yourself a bit of extra money that otherwise could be saved. ANY time you can run the heat pump and minimize heat strip operation will be a savings in money... at least until you hit the machine's balance point.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Bob - I agree with what you're saying. The stat I have my eye on is this one which will allow the ability to lock out the heat pump and heat strips under whatever outdoor tempswimming I prefer: 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00C..._1_2?colid=2P0MXD594WAKR&coliid=IXBIYZTXFSCI2

And I am interested in adding this: 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...1_1?colid=2P0MXD594WAKR&coliid=I3BRY5SJ860NVB

But at this point I'm not confident/comfortable with my wiring to attempt this on my own.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

The vis pro is a good stat. I believe the software is similar to its big brother (the IAQ) and will allow lock out, CPH customization, and staging temperature adjustment, all of which are needed to properly control the heat strips.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

Any man with a HVAC issue deserves dinner and a movie with his wife. Given your current issue I don't hold the belief you need any exotic nor costly equipment at this juncture. There is no real need to measure Delta T or the temperature split across the coil, etc. If you have floor registers you could stick a simple, inexpensive dial thermometer in a register and measure the varying temps when there is no call for heat, and then when only the heat pump is operating, and then when the electric strips are on. You should be in the mid twenties during the early part of the day today and, in my opinion, you should be able to realize some heat just from your heat pump. Especially in what is a new home for your family I hope you find favorable, inexpensive results quickly!


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

I forgot the link to a dial thermometer: http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-10597-Dial-Thermometer-220°F/dp/B000O3M5CE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1453010762&sr=8-4&keywords=a%2Fc+thermometer


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Make sure that the thermostat wire is good before changing the stat. Unlikely that the thermostat is bad.

could be a broken wire. (jumpering the r to the wire bringing on the aux heat will do that with r to g jumped too don't know which wire, i do see a w1 and e)

You could also use a multi-meter if you have one, turning the heat all the way up and checking resistance between r, likely w1 with wire disconnected.

What happens in emergency heat mode?

The terminal strip has W2, W3, etc so it's possible to stage the heat strips with the stat. That may be beneficial, bringing on the minimum amount of resistance heat to do the job. 

Does appear that they changed the outdoor unit but kept the air handler/coil, which isn't the greatest especially in heatpump applications. They put an r22 unit; if the indoor coil springs a leak you'll be in for an expensive repair bill, having to either recharge with expensive r22 or change out the entire system for a 410a one. Saves the warranty company money but costs you more, re-using a 14 year old coil with a few years left.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

The first tech did tell me that when they upgraded the heat pump they didn't upgrade the air handler. He said this isn't ideal as you will lose efficiency but the air handler has some sort of valve (thermal expansion valve perhaps? I didn't write it down) that helps with making the two technologies work together. The pump is 13 seer (sp?) and the air handler is 10 I believe. He advised to leave the configuration as is for now and when the handler fails replace the entire system: new heat pump, lines, handler, etc. He said around $6,000 for something like that. Surely I'm not to that point yet. But it's not surprising a home warranty would only replace the pump and nothing else. I'm actually surprised they even did that. My previous experience with home warranties is they will patch something to death before ever agreeing to replace. The old one must have been in rough shape. 

For give my ignorance, but I do have a digital meat thermometer that looks very similar to the dial therm. listed on amazon (long probe but with a digital read out). Would something like that work for measuring the delivered air temps? I'll try it out and see. Later this morning I will take readings from registers close to blower and further away with no heat, heat pump only, heat pump + heat strips, heat strips with disconnect pulled, and emergency heat. If that term works, I will post what I find.

I do not have a clamp meter so I'm not much help there. I would say in the realm of DIY electricity is by far my weakest area. My ignorance in the topic is staggering.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Alright. I have a bit of data to offer you guys and see what you think. I ran the system under different configurations and then measured the delivered air temperature from two different registers (our master bedroom which is usually too warm for comfort while the rest of the house is cool and the living room which is usually cool and where we spend most of our time). 

The outdoor temperature today is 28 degrees so it's not a great day to test the heat pump cold tolerance but tomorrow is a high of 16 so maybe I will try again tomorrow morning and see what results I get. 

So I set the thermostat on 71/72 last night before bed and the thermostat showed 68 this morning and the heat pump has been running continuously. My two readings for temperatures under this configuration was 96.6 in the master bedroom and 94.3 in the living room.

I then set the thermostat to 85 degrees which should trigger aux electric heat to kick in and remeasured the air temps. I got 119 in the bedroom and 112.8 in the living room. So apparently something kicked in and was helping to some degree.

I then set the system in emergency which should lockout the heat pump and run heat strips only. I left the thermostat set at 85. The bedroom showed 92 degrees and the living room showed 91.8. This result confuses me as I would expect emergency to pump out lots of heat but it didn't even match the output of the heat pump alone.

I haven't tried setting heat to normal and pulling the disconnect to see what happens to aux heat while operating in second stage but I'm not sure I need to based on these results. I've also been on baby duty this morning too as my wife works on her MBA studies so I can't get outside at the moment. I can try this scenario later today though if you think it would help offer any new information.

I really have no idea how to interpret these temperatures. I hope you guys may be able to offer an opinion.

Thanks.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

96 in the master when the house is 68. Presuming the return air temp is 68, gives a delta of 28. Which is on the high side for your outdoor unit. Should be getting around 20,000 BTUs give or take a thousand. But low air flow could give a high reading like that. Your temp rise in emergency heat only, would indicate only 1-5KW aux heater is on. Or, that your blower sped up, and is moving far far more air in emergency heat then in heat pump mode.

If any of your returns are high, and pulling in air warmer then 68. Well, could mean even worse. But would need to know the temps at the air handler. And what speed the blower is on.

PS: I can read 4 separate wires on a strip package, and be reading the same strip heater.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Beenthere - a lot of what you said is beyond me. I apologize. 

All of our cold air returns are near the baseboards. None are high (if that's what you meant when you said high). When you say the delta is high for that unit what exactly do you mean? The pump is working harder than it should?

How would one measure air temp in the air handler and measure blower speed? I'm happy to try if it is a straight forward process.


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## awtrizzle (Jun 25, 2015)

Didn't read all posts. I am curious if you have a faulty defrost board in your heat pump or if you have a faulty temp switch in your heat pump. At a minimum, especially because of your outdoor temps, your unit should shut off at regular intervals. About 15-20 minutes of continuous operation. This is to defrost your outdoor unit. Do you ever get any ice buildup on your outdoor coils? Do you notice your outdoor unit shutting off randomly and creating what I can only explain as a hissing sound. (The hissing sound is for defrosting purposes) During this time your unit should only use aux heat. 
What part of the world are you in. A heat pump doesn't seem optimal in your 16 degree environment.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> Beenthere - a lot of what you said is beyond me. I apologize.
> 
> All of our cold air returns are near the baseboards. None are high (if that's what you meant when you said high). When you say the delta is high for that unit what exactly do you mean? The pump is working harder than it should?
> 
> ...


Drill a hole in the duct work at the air handler. How ever, the supply should be measured in the trunk line, so it is not effected by radiant heat.



awtrizzle said:


> Didn't read all posts. I am curious if you have a faulty defrost board in your heat pump or if you have a faulty temp switch in your heat pump. At a minimum, especially because of your outdoor temps, your unit should shut off at regular intervals. About 15-20 minutes of continuous operation. This is to defrost your outdoor unit. Do you ever get any ice buildup on your outdoor coils? Do you notice your outdoor unit shutting off randomly and creating what I can only explain as a hissing sound. (The hissing sound is for defrosting purposes) During this time your unit should only use aux heat.
> What part of the world are you in. A heat pump doesn't seem optimal in your 16 degree environment.


At 28°F outdoor temp, it should have long run times. nd it shouldn't need to defrost more then once every 30 minutes at the most. Many time and temp defrost heat pumps only defrost once every 90 minutes of accumulated compressor run time.

16 °f outdoor temp, most heat pumps are still providing more then twice as many BTUs per KWH used as electric aux heat does.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

I have never noticed any ice build up. I believe the heat pump defrosts it should as the pump was in defrost mode when the first inspection began but then kicked on. The supply lines warmed up quite quickly once running again. 

We live in NE Ohio in the secondary snow belt. I'd agree a heat pump is not ideal for our location but it's what we are limited to unless we choose to install a propane or oil furnace and holding tank which is not practical. No natural gas lines near us either. We live in a semi rural area. So we are stuck with electric.

EDIT: drilling holes in duct work may beyond my comfort zone. And if I do, that doesn't address thr unknown of measuring air speed.

You mentioned a dirty coil... is there a way to investigate this? If I know where to look into can snap a few pictures to share.


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## awtrizzle (Jun 25, 2015)

Unless we're talking about below zero temps I would have to agree that a heat pump will always be more efficient than electric heat strips. Was just saying it may not be the best option, and for a reason. They aren't widely used in most northern states because they can't keep up. 
I am not for sure but it could be part of the problem with heating your house. 
Does warm air blow out during defrost cycles? If so then your outdoor defrost board is good and your heat strips are good. 
If that proves correct your best bet may be to invest in a new thermostat, $60 is a fair price for one and you will not need programmable. Heat pumps are best left at one temp. Cycling off during your "not home" hours will actually cost you more with a heat pump. They are simple to wire up yourself and if need be we can help. 
Your next investment would be in insulation.
If your heat pump and heat strips work it could be just due to outdoor temps. Before I redid my attic blow in insulation my brand new heat pump and air handler would run all day and struggle to keep the house at 70ish. New/more insulation has made a world of difference!!!


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> We live in NE Ohio in the secondary snow belt. I'd agree a heat pump is not ideal for our location but it's what we are limited to unless we choose to install a propane or oil furnace and holding tank which is not practical. No natural gas lines near us either. We live in a semi rural area. So we are stuck with electric.


HUH??
There are no issues with heat pumps in Ohio and they ARE ideal if you have no NG line access.

Heat pumps can save to some serious money all the way down to temperatures of -12 or so

I'm in Manitoba and I use one (our Winter temps are similar to Alaska)... and yes, they DO actually use them in Alaska too.

Heat pump technology has changed tremendously over the years and there are no longer barriers at 30 and 31 like there used to be.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

awtrizzle said:


> Unless we're talking about below zero temps


Not true at all. Heat pumps can save big bucks even below 0
I have to switch over to heat strips at about -12


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## awtrizzle (Jun 25, 2015)

Ok so after reading your reply I have to add. The secondary/aux part of the heat pump is what will make the difference in cold temps. Especially cost. So I must take it back and say electric aux heat is what isn't preferred in northern states.
A heat pump, much less anything, will not work efficiently without proper insulation. 
So I stand corrected and will eat that comment.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

When I tested air temps coming from the register during emergency heat I did get warm air - not hot. I believe this indicates heat strips are doing something (although maybe not as they should be) and I would guess they would function similarly when the heat pump enters defrost. I have yet to measure the delivered air temp during defrost though. As proposed, maybe air flow is restricted due to a dirty indoor coil? I suppose that would be my next step.

I will add that the previous owners were very particular with service. The service record downstairs is lengthy and they kept track of every filter change. They had a fall check up in 2014. Wouldn't a service call such as this look at the coil to check if it needs cleaning? I suppose you never know but I'd guess that's a standard item to check out.

All I can say for attic insulation is that it passed our home inspection as acceptable (for whatever thats worth). Could we use more? Probably but who couldnt? I still feel as though something isn't quite right with the heating system.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

awtrizzle said:


> Ok so after reading your reply I have to add. The secondary/aux part of the heat pump is what will make the difference in cold temps.


I have no heat strips or any other AUX heat on whatsoever down to about -4 at which point I have to start subsidizing with one 5Kw strip. That takes me to about -12. The pump gets locked out at that point since it is no longer cost effective.

(4 ton 2 stage pump on a 1500 sq foot house)


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> When I tested air temps coming from the register during emergency heat I did get warm air - not hot.


What the KW rating on your strips and how many do you have?


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Bob - I believe it's 20k but I wouldn't know where to look to confirm. The first hvac tech told me that. He tested 4 elements so I would guess I have 4 strips.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> Bob - I believe it's 20k but I wouldn't know where to look to confirm. The first hvac tech told me that. He tested 4 elements so I would guess I have 4 strips.


Did you crank the thermostat all the way up and wait 5 minutes or so to ensure all stages are getting the 'run' command from the thermostat?

20Kw should be not quite as hot as gas... but hot none the less. You should feel a crystal clear difference between a 20k heat strip and a heat pump. If you are not noticing a VERY distinct difference then one or more of your strips are not running. I suspect you have at least 2 strips out by the description of the present quality of heat coming out in emergency heat mode. You will need to confirm this though with a clamp ammeter.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

How does the system know how many strips to use? If I have to crank it to 90 to heat the house to 70 then what's the point? 

If I had the thermostat set at 85 on emeregency heat for well over 5 minutes wouldn't that call for all 4 strips? If so, and I'm only getting 96 degrees, then probably something isn't right. I think I may have to bite the bullet and schedule another hvac service call.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> How does the system know how many strips to use? If I have to crank it to 90 to heat the house to 70 then what's the point?
> 
> If I had the thermostat set at 85 on emeregency heat for well over 5 minutes wouldn't that call for all 4 strips? If so, and I'm only getting 96 degrees, then probably something isn't right. I think I may have to bite the bullet and schedule another hvac service call.


A number of different methods are used but usually it's some sort of mix between time and and difference between set temperature and ambient temperature.

I would say 85 and a 5 minute wait would be sufficient and with 96 I would also suggest you have AT LEAST one strip not working. Again you need to confirm that with a clamp ammeter.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Well just to be thorough I just set the temp to 90 and let it run 5 minutes. My delivered air temp in the living room was 111. That doesn't seem to have much kick to it when I'm getting high 90s with hest pump only. 

Wish I had a clamp meter. I'll make some calls tomorrow and try to find someone that won't waste my time and money.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

I have a 15 kw strip (2 stage) and I get about 130 on both stages (no heat pump... just strips)


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Wish I had a clamp meter. I'll make some calls tomorrow and try to find someone that won't waste my time and money.


it may be cheaper than a service call and you could learn new things troubleshooting the electrical side of the system.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> Well just to be thorough I just set the temp to 90 and let it run 5 minutes. My delivered air temp in the living room was 111. That doesn't seem to have much kick to it when I'm getting high 90s with hest pump only.
> 
> Wish I had a clamp meter. I'll make some calls tomorrow and try to find someone that won't waste my time and money.


Just in an effort to help you and Bob be thorough--and I only know this because I have energy-consumption monitors--but my system runs at least for 10 minutes before all of my strips energize. Could it prove helpful to allow yours to run 10 or even 20 minutes since varying systems might use different criteria in sequencing those strips? And I've lost track of some of the posts but is it possible that your heat pump is still running during times that you're checking temps at your registers and, if so, could it be in defrost mode during some of those temperature checks? While in defrost mode the HP is essentially running in A/C mode and the electric strips will kick in enough to somewhat counterbalance its effect, yet not enough that it raises the indoor temp so that it can complete its defrost cycle (to the best of my knowledge). Regards.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

That's a good point about defrost mode. I didn't make a point to check that prior to measuring air temps. But that wouldn't explain the low temps during emergency heat. While I did not allow to run for 20 minutes in emergency I did let it go for at least 10 to 13 minutes or so. I'd expect higher than high 90s within that time frame. But who knows. You may be right. I'll try again today and let run for a while and see what happens.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

So I took some more pics today to see if you guys may spot anything that may warrant further investigation. I also looked at the coil and it looked clean to me but I have never cleaned one before. From what I can tell though the coil doesn't appear to be causing a reduced air flow.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Rest of new pics:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Remove air filter, and look into coil from that end. Which 4 wires did he check amp draw on.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Beenthere - not sure I could point them out now. I know they were red so I believe they are red ones towards the rear of the cabinet.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

beenthere said:


> Remove air filter, and look into coil from that end.


HUH? 

Regarding some posts pertaining to airflow, one issue I had in our new-home build was airflow. In order to achieve close to desired specs (and we have a two-story with an unfinished basement) I had to forego pleated air filters and use the $1 fiberglass filters (and change them religiously every 4 weeks) AND open all our basement registers. I don't share this because I have any experience to suggest that's your issue, I mention it just as a point of reference (I don't even know if it applies in heating mode). If it is applicable, blower speed can affect airflow and perhaps the knowledgeable posters following your thread can analyze your pics and help determine if your fan speed is set to run at its highest during heat pump operation. Regards.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Well I have a third tech coming out on Thursday afternoon to try to sort this out. This company claims to know their stuff when it comes to heat pumps and electric systems so I hope that's the case. It may be a waste of $65 but I hope I get a guy that really digs in and tries to solve the issue. I'll keep you all posted.

I didn't know they even made $1 filters. Maybe that's the issue... who knows.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

bfletcher7 said:


> HUH?



Looking at the discharge side of the coil doesn't tell you if the inlet side(side with the air filter) is dirty.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

beenthere said:


> Looking at the discharge side of the coil doesn't tell you if the inlet side(side with the air filter) is dirty.


Gotcha - I misread as removing the filter to look for wires. Thanks.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Here's an update for those of you that interested:

I had another HVAC tech out yesterday and I think I finally found someone that has a clue plus reasonable rates. He spent nearly two hours here going through all of the components. To keep it short, he determined that each piece is working correctly on it's own. He measured the delivered air temp in the handler and it got up to 180 when the blower speed dropped (due to the door being pulled) so the system is capable of making plenty of heat (with the door closed it peaked somewhere int he 145 to 155 range. We found out that the blower speed drops to low when placed in emergency heat so that is one advantage to running emergency only versus heat pump + second stage as the blower speed remains in the medium-high level. He said the coil was a little dirty on the bottom side but not terrible and could use a cleaning. He also suspected that part of the problem was the filter (which I believe one of the members on here suggested early on). We had a pleated, allergy filter which - as I was told - can greatly reduce air flow. While one may sacrifice slightly cleaner air, he recommended using cheaper filters to allow air to pass. And not only was it pleated and allergy rated it was also nearly full of crud. I replaced it two months ago and did not expect it to already be due for replacement but now I know. He also helped balance the system a bit by adjusting the trunk dampers which is forcing a bit more heat to the cooler side of the house. He also measured the capacitor on the blower and said that is a little out of the ideal threshold (6% - it was reading 4.42) and said it could be replaced but may not be a must. And finally, he also recommended a new stat with a redlink outdoor temp gauge to be able to lock out the heat pump in very cold temps. I know cost isn't really to be discussed on here but to clean the coil and replace the cap it would cost $135. To install a new 8000 series stat with outdoor temp gauge and a redlink gateway it would cost $325. A buddy of mine in Cincinnati in the HVAC biz says it is best to do the cleaning in the summer and to wait on that repair - I'll be interested in your opinion on that. The $325 for that setup seems like a deal because when I price each item individually on amazon (assuming we are talking about the exact same model numbers as there are few varieties within the 8000 series) the total comes to nearly $300. Why not pay the extra $25 to have him put it all in for peace of mind? My only other thought would be to forgo the internet gateway and just get the stat and outdoor gauge ($205 combined on amazon) and he said he would be willing to install if and just charge me the labor to do so. I need to decide if I feel I need the ability to control our system via a smart phone. Given that its a heat pump and you are supposed to "set it and forget it" I don't see a lot of need for the feature.

Alright - off to work. Thanks everyone.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Very cheap prices. Clean the coil now and reduce your heating cost, or wait until spring and put up with higher heating cost. Your choice.

So did he determine why its not heating your house to set point temp.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Well his assessment was largely based on what I posted earlier: a combination of a too restrictive air filter, a lightly soiled coil, poor balanced duct work plus an inaccurate thermostat. He suspected the second stage mercury tube is shutting off too quickly to allow temps to increase. He echoed the other techs saying a digital stat offers precise control where setting the limits will drive the heat to fulfill set temps whereas currently I am relying on an inaccurate mechanical system.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Did he say how many amps each element was drawing? 

Cheers!


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> Well his assessment was largely based on what I posted earlier: a combination of a too restrictive air filter, a lightly soiled coil, poor balanced duct work plus an inaccurate thermostat. He suspected the second stage mercury tube is shutting off too quickly to allow temps to increase. He echoed the other techs saying a digital stat offers precise control where setting the limits will drive the heat to fulfill set temps whereas currently I am relying on an inaccurate mechanical system.


 Restricted air flow / tripped limit safety / turning off heat strips :vs_no_no_no:


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

I'm glad you found someone whom is thorough and reasonable!


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

I forgot to add this info about tripping the elements if they overheat due to low air flow. The tech mentioned this and suspected that may be occurring. Yesterday I swung by home depot and got a pack of cheap-our filters (3/$7.50) and will start using those.

He checked the amps but did not relay that info to me. I'll ask next time we chat.

I'm still puzzled by his pricing as the profit margin is far too narrow. EIther he gets a great deal on those redlink gateways or the stat he would be installing is a slightly cheaper model compared to the one referenced in this thread. I called yesterday and asked her provide the exact model number just to correctly compare.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

3 for 7.50 still sounds like pleated air filters.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

They are pleated but they don't have any of the allergen filter properties. And home depot didn't even stock any non pleated types. If you have a source on where to purchase please share.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I get my air filters from HVAC supply houses.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

I get my $1 fiberglass filters from Ace Hardware. I know I stated $1 earlier and perhaps they're closer to $2 but you get the idea . Not that I know more than you but these are allegedly less likely to trap particles, so I change mine every 4 weeks - and given what you stated about your coil being somewhat dirty and the pleated filter also being dirty it is probably important that you do frequent changes, too.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Agreed. I think know frequent changes are in order. I bought nine of the pleated at home Depot thinking it was a good deal (that originally arm and Hamer that got removed was over $10). Maybe I'll return and swing by ace hardware. There's one close by.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

*If you do your job* and clean/change filters regularly and inspect/clean your furnace every year, then the cheap fiberglass filters work great. The coil needs a light vacuuming and a can of (no rinse) coil cleaner once a year. No big deal.... and no threat of restricted airflow.

I simply do not believe in any of these mid and high merv filters.... just selling gimmicks for the most part, IMO.

I indeed have the basic washable hammock style filter on my system and it works fine.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Bob - you've done the coil cleaning yourself? Do you wait to do it in summer when the coil is condensing to provide a more thorough rinse?


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Just found this how-to on cleaning the coil. Looks to be incredibly easy: http://www.handymanhowto.com/how-to-clean-air-conditioner-evaporator-coils-part-2/

I can also get a replacement capacitor for less than $10 and is also incredibly easy ton do. While I liked this hvac tech, I can't see justifying paying $135 for something I can do myself for less than $20.

I also think I'm going to go ahead and order the stat and outdoor temp sensor on amazon and give that a shot. Hopefully with guidance on here I can successfully do it.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Edit: Looks like I lose IAQ options when going from 1001 to 1003.


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

I began looking at Honeywell's stats, too, and was confused by all the kit offerings and ordered this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OZXEEG4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00 and learned later it did not include the outdoor sensor. 

Then, after the fact, stumbled upon this nice comparison chart https://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/50-1376.pdf


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

Oh and there was this chart, too https://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/thermostats/03-00005.pdf 

I liked the idea of having access to performance logs offered on a couple of them.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

The prestige IAQ keeps 3 separate log reports

Performance logs:
The log takes a picture of your system operation every hour or so and let's you see all the operational numbers... indoor/outdoor temp, humity, which stages are running and for how long... etc

Alert logs:
All alerts, maintenance reminders, the times and dates of them... etc

Change logs:
This will log the time/date of any and all changes and/or adjustments made to the sytem

All logs can be viewed on the stat or downloaded to stick and viewed in spreadsheet format on your computer.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Alright folks. My new stat arrived earlier this week and just now getting around to installing it (I hope). I got the old one off and have mounted the new back plate. Prior to disconnecting all wires I labeled them. I am now in the process of wiring the new one and it seems the old lettering does not exactly match the lettering offered on the new stat. I am left without a home for my "W1" wire. 

Here is what is what is available and I have used so far:

Stat Labeled Wires
C -------- C
K -------- open
RC ------ jumped to R
R -------- R 
U1 ------- open
U1 ------- open
S1 ------- open
S1 ------- open
O/B ------ O
Y --------- Y1
G --------- G
AUX-E ---- E
Y2 -------- open
L/A ------- open

As you can see, I have no spot specifically for "W1". I am guessing I need to wire it to Y2 but I wanted to check in with the experts here first. Let me know what you think and let me know if I made any other errors with other wiring choices.

Thanks.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Depends on how the wires are connected at the air handier and outdoor unit. W1 may not be needed in your case. EDIT: after reviewing the thread and documents, your aux is not connected at the AH. Switch your w1 and aux wires at the stat. 

Cheers!


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

supers05 said:


> Depends on how the wires are connected at the air handier and outdoor unit. W1 may not be needed in your case. EDIT: after reviewing the thread and documents, your aux is not connected at the AH. Switch your w1 and aux wires at the stat.
> 
> Cheers!


So just to clarify, place W1 in the AUX-E slot and simply leave the E detached? 

E was attached to the old stat but perhaps it was just a "dummy" hook up. I suspected this since the E wire in the air handler seems to be simply capped and not connected to anything. Any ideas why they would do this? Perhaps they wired the stat first and then the air handler, realized E wasn't needed, and never went back upstairs to remove it from the stat?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

More like they never realized they should have connected it to the same terminal as the white wire.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

BuckeyeAaron said:


> So just to clarify, place W1 in the AUX-E slot and simply leave the E detached?


Correct. Tape it off so that it doesn't touch the other bare wires. 


Cheers!


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

supers05 said:


> Correct. Tape it off so that it doesn't touch the other bare wires.
> 
> 
> Cheers!


Thank you. I'll go try this and report back.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Any ideas on how many compressor stages I have?
EDIT: I'm guess two since I have a "two stage" system but want to verify.

I'm in the initial setup procedure now that I'm wired and powered up.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

So I went ahead and went with "two stages" for compressor and then went through the 40 set up questions. Many of them I was unsure of and I'm not confident I set it up correctly. It is showing a temp of 70 degrees inside right now with the schedule I set up to maintain 68 until bedtime. To test the system I kicked up to 72 and placed a temporary hold to override the schedule. I heard the system kick on and went to system status and saw that under Heat Pump it had stage one as on and stage two as off and aux heat was off (as was cooling - obviously). I then kick it up to 74 to see if emergency heat would kick on and check status again. Under heat pump I saw an "on" status for stage 1 and 2 and aux heat as "off." This happened either because I set up the system incorrectly or because I set a lockout temp of 50 degrees (when 50 and warmer aux heat would not kick on). Right now the stat thinks its 70 degrees outside because I haven't installed the Redlink Outdoor sensor yet. I also set a lockout temp of 20 degrees so the heat pump would stop running when heating when it gets 20 or below. I plan to check with the manufacturer and see what temp they recommend to stop using my specific unit.

In short, it seems to be working but I'm not sure if it is completely dialed in. I'm debating about paying for another service call just to look over my work and make sure it is as it should be. That kind of defeats the purpose of DIY but I would at least save on parts and labor time installing. Any other guidance with finishing this up would be great.

Thanks,


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## bfletcher7 (Jan 16, 2016)

Great job, Buckeye; sounds like you've made terrific progress. It would be my guess you have a single-stage heat pump since you only have 1 Y connection (Y2 is open per your earlier post).


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

bfletcher7 said:


> Great job, Buckeye; sounds like you've made terrific progress. It would be my guess you have a single-stage heat pump since you only have 1 Y connection (Y2 is open per your earlier post).


Perhaps that is where my set up went wrong. I'll see if i can edit somehow.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

Ok - another update. Outdoor sensor has been placed outside. The stat still shows a high temperature so I am going to hope it just takes a little while to adjust to the new temp and adjust accordingly. I have also set the compressor stage to single stage. 

I also forgot to mention I replaced the capacitor on the blower in the air handler with a new AmRad capacitor. I bought some coil cleaner as well which I plan to use this summer when running the AC.

Let me know if I missed anything else during the set up process and I really appreciate everyone's continued assistance and patience.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

It's single stage

Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Compressor shut off/lock out is dependent on the COP of your heat pump, and whether you have on demand or time and temp defrost. If time and temp defrost, lok it out when the COP drops below 1.3.


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## BuckeyeAaron (Jan 16, 2016)

I was reading about COP on another website. Would the manual state what the COP is for my heat pump? And if my heat pump is timed and not temp demand, would your recommendation of 1.3 differ?

Also, random off topic question: we got bedroom furniture on Saturday and ever since I have heard this "tuning fork" sound coming from the cold air return. If I place my hand on the cover it stops. I was reading this may be caused by restricted air flow. One of the dressers we have is placed near this return but not in front of it
Its maybe 6 inches to the right of the mounting screw for the cover. Is this enough clearance? Could the noise be caused by something else?


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