# Roof edge help please!



## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

I am still searching the web for an answer. I just came across one more picture on a roof inspection web site.

They call for ice and rain on the edge of the sheathing folding over about 1" onto the fascia. Then the metal drip edge. Then another full 36" of Ice and rain stuck to the top of the drip edge and the sheathing.

Way too many ideas ..... which is right ?

Thanks .... Mike


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

We build a ladder sort of out of 2x4 out a foot from the building and sheet to the edge of that and the but a 2x10 fascia the drip edge goes over that, protect the top edge of the fascia.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

They're all right. Sort of. I think you missed the part of the explanation from your framer where you put the fascia under that one inch overhang and cover with drip edge leaving a 1/4" gap. 
The cutting flush to subfascia is the way I've seen it done on some of the older houses, but I don't like that method as any failure of the roofing will run water between the fascia, plywood, and subfascia making a rot sandwich, whereas the former version with the ply over the fascia provides a better drain path. I've seen some older houses done this way without any drip edge at all and they held up ok with the roofing going a little further out than what you'd see today. 
The strip of Ice & Water over the fascia to plywood decking seam, then drip edge, then full Ice & Water is the gold standard approach. Not everyone will do it this way when trying to do it quickly, but it's a nice belt and suspenders approach to an area that can cause a lot of issues down the road. I'd do it this way if you're in a climate that gets ice dams and you don't want to worry about it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

NotyeruncleBob said:


> They're all right. Sort of. I think you missed the part of the explanation from your framer where you put the fascia under that one inch overhang and cover with drip edge leaving a 1/4" gap.
> The cutting flush to subfascia is the way I've seen it done on some of the older houses, but I don't like that method as any failure of the roofing will run water between the fascia, plywood, and subfascia making a rot sandwich, whereas the former version with the ply over the fascia provides a better drain path. I've seen some older houses done this way without any drip edge at all and they held up ok with the roofing going a little further out than what you'd see today.
> The strip of Ice & Water over the fascia to plywood decking seam, then drip edge, then full Ice & Water is the gold standard approach. Not everyone will do it this way when trying to do it quickly, but it's a nice belt and suspenders approach to an area that can cause a lot of issues down the road. I'd do it this way if you're in a climate that gets ice dams and you don't want to worry about it.


If you have a leak at the edge you have a choice, the fascia gets wet or the water runs down the sheeting until it gets to that little gap between sheets and and follows into the house.:vs_cool:


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I cut the roof sheathing flush to the 2x facia. My current house has 1.5" overhang and about 20" of it rotted. Remember that underside will not be protected. This overhang also covers too much of the gutter. Hard rain is likely to drain over the gutter, not into it. Cleaning and access will be harder too.
I use 2x6 facia and cover with aluminum sheet. The metal slips under the drip edge. 1x finish board over the framing lumber is for the finish look and they are painted. But these 1x boards in practice is more sacrificial than lasting over the life of house. Paint on it also has to be maintained. You can use pvc boards but they are expensive. You can use pvc on gable rake but eave will be mostly covered with gutter.
2x6 facia is about 1/2 to 3/4" below the top edge of rafters or the sheathing will catch the front edge of the facia.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

OH :vs_bulb: You guys are talking about the fascia at the tails
Usually we just put a 2x4 liner for the gutter but have put fascia on some.
Over top and flush or 1/4" short of flush.
Disregard my other post


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

The method I prefer is 12" coil stock bent at 6" with 6" being on the roof and 6" covering the 1x6 fascia which allows a 1/2" drip edge below the fascia. Features no chance of capillary water rotting the fascia. Both nailed to the roof with no fascia penetrations with the exception of the house with guttering. Has had zero maintenance in 34 years.

The two buildings, house and storage building. House with guttering and storage without guttering.


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## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

You guys are awesome!

I truly appreciate the advice.

I just had no idea there are soooo many ways of accomplishing the same task.

I realize no method is fool proof but I just want to do the best job I can.

On the house we just finished (right in front of the shop I am starting), I opted for the PVC. My thinking was I am 55 and don't want to get up on a ladder to paint anything than high in 10 years. I was a bit disappointed. Not quite as "clean" as I expected. Some of this due to the textured finish and some due to the sloppy job on caulking up the nail holes (even though I watched them wipe off access with a damp cloth.

Also, the joints open and close more than I though with the weather. The were cut at a 45 and looked nice but I see them really open up at cold times in the year. Plus when you cut PVC, it has a different texture and holds dirt more so the joint just stands out more. Still it will be better than painting.

Now that I have a 30 year mortgage, I am trying to save every $ I can on the workshop. PVC = $$$$$$

The aluminum may be good but to me ( and no offense, your building looks great ) I see pucker after puck where the nails are on my aluminum trim. It warps as it expands in she summer (here in VT ... -30 in winter and a couple of 90's in the summer).

I like the idea of the double ice and water. 9" piece under and 36" above.

The only better if I could afford it would be the PVC then the 9" ice and water ... steel edge .... then 36". I will have to take a look at the final numbers and see if it is in the budget.

I will give it a bit more thought but this sounds like a plan.

Thanks again so very much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike


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## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

Just thinking after I wrote that post ... even if I run the sheathing over the top and use ice and water below and on top of the drip edge, will I still run the chance of water getting between the sub fascia (say a 2 x 6) and the fascia (say 1 x 8 PVC)?

I would think if the sheathing runs to the edge, water (it the event of a leak) "should" not get between the two ( or will it weep backwards )? If the fascia is 7 1/4" long and the sub fascia 5 1/2" long, it should not weep up ... ????

Or since the sub fascia is not painted between the two will it just stay "moist" from the air ... never dry completely and rot ?????

Any thoughts?

Mike


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

Fascia rotting out with a gutter in place is most often a case of bad gutter installation or a bad gutter choice. All gutters will overflow at some point so a good one will have more of a J shape that is higher on the house side. If it's just a U shape with both sides equal then it will get the fascia wet when it overflows. I've also seen ones with a slight J shape that were nailed on so tight that the low side was as high as the high side. A lot of the older gutters had a spike that would go right through the gutter wall to the house so that would create another point for water to get into the fascia (and framing) when the gutter filled up. The nicer hangers attach to the house above the gutter line to prevent this.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Seamless gutters are the way to go. It is the home owner installed stuff that is always the problem.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

what ever route you go just be sure the interaction between metal drip/fascia/decking does not create any sort of "cupping" at the bottom. 
That is safest done with plywood running over the fascia but if the plywood stops before the fascia just be sure the fascia sits low enough and or is bevel cut so the roof line is a straight plane.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Slotting of expansive material at nailing locations seems to be common to prevent buckling to some degree.


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## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

Sooooooo .....

Lets say I want the "gold standard". Ice and water under the metal edge to protect the edge of the sheathing and over the drip edge for water.

How much exposure of the ice and water wrap?

The sheathing is 3/4" (24" centers on rafters ... 70 lb per sq ft snow load).

I just measured a piece of drip edge I have left over from the house ... 1 1/2" overhang on the fascia including the 1/2" kick.

With 1" wrap over you only get 1/4" on the fascia.

With 1 1/2" wrap over, you see the wrap. That is not important but I was worried how well the ice and water will hold up exposed a bit?

I drew both these options plus more. Just a thought .... I could add a piece of wood ... say a 1 x 4 or even a 1 x 8 ... pre-paint .... in front and put the wrap over it. If I could afford it, maybe even a PVC. A PVC 1 x 4 would cost $450 and a 1 x 8 would cost $1050. Just worried about water getting between the 1 x 4 and the 2 x 6 ... should I be? If I used a 1 x 8, this probably would not be a problem ... or would it (unfinished 2 x 6 against the PVC ????? 

Attached is a picture of what I am thinking about.

Any thoughts ?????

Thanks so much again .... Mike

View attachment eave_options.pdf


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

xtal_01 said:


> Sooooooo .....
> 
> Ice and water under the metal edge to protect the edge of the sheathing and over the drip edge for water.
> 
> ...


Ice and water over the drip edge so water can not work it's way under it.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

You can't seal the roof like it was a science lab or such - as if capillary suction would rot out the entire corner. That is only in the fantasies of worried owners. If that is true, every shingled roof is decoration and the tar paper under them is the real worker.:smile: Ice shield's main work is to seal around the nails better than other secondary protections. The adhesive WILL fail over time and ice shield is not going to be the hermetic seal you imagine. 
You want ridge and soffit (if you're ok, vinyl soffits with holes) ventilation, xps over wall plates with min 1.5" air space, draft controls. Installing the gutter with drainage slope that you can see, and using bigger down spouts (there are 2 sizes that I know). R60-70 attic insulation (I've read a graph somewhere that more insulation doesn't have payoff.) If you can afford it, rafter bay baffle starting at the soffit continuously to the ridge vent would make the winter ventilation a lot better.

I bent the sheetmetal facia covers out of heavy gauge (usually 24" wide rolls) aluminum rolls and made them less than 7' long. 2x6 facia. 1.25" drip edge? So the facia covers were about 5" wide with about 3/4 or 5/8 flange. Z flange shape was outside of the vinyl channels. I used a rented brake. If you have to, predrill the covers. I used aluminum siding nails. One nail each location, ends and one middle, about 2" from bottom edge. Nails are just snug, a bit more than the vinyl siding and don't nail the overlapping pieces together. The covers stayed flat on gable rake, south wall.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

You need to think of this just like your shingles and keep everything layered to give the water a path to ground that doesn't have any blockages or places to pool. 
I checked out your drawing. First, are you really going to leave your fascia at an angle like that and not vertical? That's a little weird. 
Plywood should go over the fascia.
Thin strip of Ice & Water _can_ go over the edge and only far enough down the fascia that it is not seen from below, so 1" in your application.
Drip edge.
Ice & Water shield then needs to be applied on top of the drip edge up to the point where it is equal to 2' inside the habitable space (IIRC, but look it up for your area, might be 18" or 36") and not just to the width of the roll. This is to prevent water damage from ice damming that happens over the eaves but pushes the water back under the shingles where the eaves meet the warmer house. Of course, this is climate dependent. Even some northern places like Seattle don't require it since they don't get enough snow for long enough for this to be an issue and a place like Phoenix wouldn't need it at all.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

Since we're on the topic of DIY roofing, here's some other tips:
Use the synthetic underlayment instead of tar paper. GAF Feltbuster is good. It's much lighter than tar paper, doesn't tear as easily, comes in a wider roll so fewer overlaps, and when button capped provides a good level of protection in case a storm rolls through while you're shingling. 
Get your shingles from a roofing supplier who will do rooftop delivery. Humping a hundred 80pound bundles of architectural shingles up a ladder is no fun even for the young bucks looking for a workout. 
Follow the directions. They're printed on every bundle!


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## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks so very much for the advice!

Yes, the fascia angle is a bit odd but we liked the look on the house (craftman style).

Here in Vermont, I used 36" of ice and water shield.

I am sure I am over thinking every item om this shop but after a three year house building project (and I still have a punch list to fix), I realize what can go wrong when you leave the details up to the sub contractors who say "trust me". I still have two doors that leak every time it rains. I had to double up all my floor joists and change out two 12" LVL's for three 16" LVL's. I even had to fix 14 leaks in my natural gas piping (gas installer and gas company both agreed that as long as it held 10 psi for 30 minutes it passed inspection ... gauge was at zero the next moring ... put 10 psi in the line, soap and water on every joint ... 14 leaks!).

Anyway, I am just trying to detail everything I can before starting. I am going to do as much as I can myself and sub out the rest.

Thanks so very much again!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

xtal_01 said:


> Here in Vermont, I used 36" of ice and water shield.


That might be enough if your eaves are about a foot deep and code says 18" of coverage, but if your overhang is 3 feet, then you have zero protection from ice dams. The ice & water shield has to extend to a point on the roof that would be equal or past a vertical line that's inside the house by 18-36" depending on local code. 

...and I just found it. It's two feet from exterior sheathing for most places. 
Here's a good explanation of it from FHB: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2017/05/16/right-amount-roof-membrane


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## xtal_01 (Oct 17, 2014)

:surprise: ... Dumb ... Dumb .... Dumb !

I completely missed that!

Again, the roofer who did my house (local, good reputation) probably didn't understand this either. He is the one who said 36" would be fine but with 24" eaves it is obviously not!

I guess my only saving grace on the house is that I have a 24" rise heel over the wall area packed with 20" of insulation in the ceilings (about R60) ... 4" air gap. The roof should stay relatively cool and thus not melt the snow. I am the only new house on the street and I am the only one without icicles on the edge of my roof. Here in VT, we have a contest every winter to see who has the longest (or most) icicles on the edge of their roof and they get help from Vermont Energy to fix the problem.

I still can't believe I missed this!

Wow ... thanks so very much !!!!!!!!!!

Mike


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

I am a big fan of ice and water shield...no question....but.....
WR Grace came out with the first product in 1978. I started roofing in 1979 and using that stuff didn't become the norm for several years. I also was part of hundreds of tear offs of houses that never had ice shield and there wasn't any huge amount of rotten wood due to the lack of the product. We were much more likely to find rotten wood around chimney's , plumbing stacks, at the base of dormers etc.


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## NotyeruncleBob (Mar 9, 2017)

xtal_01 said:


> ... the roofer who did my house (local, good reputation) probably didn't understand this either. He is the one who said 36" would be fine but with 24" eaves it is obviously not!
> 
> I guess my only saving grace on the house is that I have a 24" rise heel over the wall area packed with 20" of insulation in the ceilings (about R60) ... 4" air gap. The roof should stay relatively cool and thus not melt the snow. I am the only new house on the street and I am the only one without icicles on the edge of my roof.


Mike, Sounds like your roof/attic insulation situation is good enough to avoid the ice dams in the first place so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The ice & water shield is only useful in the event of an ice dam. If you never have an ice dam, then you won't miss it. 



> I also was part of hundreds of tear offs of houses that never had ice shield and there wasn't any huge amount of rotten wood due to the lack of the product.


Craig, I do see your point. Most of the time it doesn't make a difference since the conditions of forming an ice dam aren't there. My parents house never had them the whole time I grew up there but a few winters ago they did get one and there was a bunch of water damage to the ceiling because of it. No rot issues from this one time event, but ice & water shield probably would have prevented the drywall damage. 
With good design, insulation, air sealing, and roof deck ventilation you can probably avoid ever having an ice dam in most climates, but if you live somewhere like VT I'd definitely recommend a properly installed ice & water shield as a backup defense.


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