# Circuit breaker keeps immediately tripping after reset...



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Hi everyone, 

So yesterday, I noticed the lights in my living room were off. I tried to turn them on and nothing happened. I checked the breaker and it was tripped. I pushed it all the way off, and then back to on to reset it, and it immediately tripped again. I tried again, and the same thing happened. 

I unplugged everything I could find on that circuit, which includes my living room, a bedroom upstairs, a bathroom upstairs, a light in my hallway, and an outside outlet. Tried again, and it immediately tripped. 

I then switched out the breaker with another breaker from a different circuit, and the same thing happened, so I know it's not the breaker. 

At this point, I've concluded that there is a short in the circuit somewhere. From what I've read, the short is probably located in a junction box, either behind an outlet, a switch or a lighting fixture. What would be the best way to locate the short? I was going to just go around and remove the outlets, switches an lighting fixtures until the breaker stops tripping. Is there anything else I should consider before I start? 

Also, there's been no construction activities in my house for months. I did add two recessed lights in that room a few months ago, but I already disconnected those lights and the breaker is still tripping. 

I also disconnected the outdoor GFI outlet that's on the circuit in question, hoping that perhaps rain or moisture got in there and was causing the fault, but that the breaker still tripped even after disconnecting the GFI outlet.


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Just so I'm clear, removing an outlet, switch or lighting fixture, and leaving the wires disconnected, should not cause the breaker to trip, right?


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Have you recently hung a new picture or something that involved putting a nail or screw into a wall that may have nicked a cable or wire?


If the breaker retripped in spite of all the disconnections you made, then something more permanent is shorting. Pick a point along the circuit -- maybe midway along -- and disconnect the hots at that point. 

If the short remains, it is electrically closer to the panel than that chosen point. If the short is gone, it is further out. By reconnecting what you undid and then opening new hots in the direction of the short and by keeping track of all this, you should reach a place or a particular length of cable at which to look for the actual short.


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. No new anything lately. That's why I'm so stumped. I was really optomistic when I disconnected the outside GFI outlet and saw that the reset button wasn't working, but since I've already disconnected it and the thing is still tripping, I'm assuming that's not the problem. 

I'll try to proceed as you have suggested, although I have no real way of knowing which recepticles are located closer or further form the panel. 

Kevin


----------



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Might be a wire nut has come unscrewed---start opening up boxes and looking for signs of burnt wires---


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

This process will be an easter egg hunt until you find the problem. You have a dead short somewhere.


----------



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Divide and conquer!
Try to visualize the way the circuit is ran, then split it.
Remove both wires from the receptacle, reset breaker.
If it trips, divide again.
If it holds, you know the problem lies downstream fro that point.
Like Jim said, it is an easter egg hunt.


----------



## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

roddent in the wall? nawwed in to the wire. they do that you know. that can cause a dead short.


----------



## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

A qualified, experienced electrician can find it with a wire tracer, but they are not tools for the DIY. Good ones are expensive and there is a BIG learning curve to climb.

Mark


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Thanks again for the replies... Any help on how to visualize the circuit without knowing where the wires actaully go? It's a two story house without a basement. The circuit breakers are located on the outside wall of my garage, and the living room/bedroom affected are on the opposite side of the house on the first and second floor respctively. I've attached a floor plan and a very crude layout of the electrical system. Let me know where I shoud start. Thanks, 

Kevin


----------



## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> Thanks again for the replies... Any help on how to visualize the circuit without knowing where the wires actaully go? It's a two story house without a basement. The circuit breakers are located on the outside wall of my garage, and the living room/bedroom affected are on the opposite side of the house on the first and second floor respctively. I've attached a floor plan and a very crude layout of the electrical system. Let me know where I shoud start. Thanks,
> 
> Kevin


Open all the boxes on the second floor, and look for a feed coming into the bottom of one boxes. It could be the downstream feed from the first floor.


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Ok. If I find that box, and assuming it is the downstream feed from the first floor... If I disconnect that outlet, it should cut off the rest of the upstairs from the circuit. If the breaker still trips, that would indicate that the short is somewhere downstairs, correct? 

Kevin


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> Ok. If I find that box, and assuming it is the downstream feed from the first floor... If I disconnect that outlet, it should cut off the rest of the upstairs from the circuit. If the breaker still trips, that would indicate that the short is somewhere downstairs, correct?
> 
> Kevin


 
Like Jb said: Divide and conquer. 

Yes that is a correct assumption.


----------



## mm11 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> Ok. If I find that box, and assuming it is the downstream feed from the first floor... If I disconnect that outlet, it should cut off the rest of the upstairs from the circuit. If the breaker still trips, that would indicate that the short is somewhere downstairs, correct?
> 
> Kevin


Not a good idea to keep reclosing the breaker onto a fault.

Get a multimeter and check for continuity between the hot and ground wires at different parts of the circuit.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Nailbags said:


> roddent in the wall? nawwed in to the wire. they do that you know. that can cause a dead short.


Considering no construction, no recent nailing,no strange vibration, sure there aren't any squirrels in the eaves/attic?


Good luck on the easter egg hunt


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

mm11 said:


> Not a good idea to keep reclosing the breaker onto a fault.
> 
> Get a multimeter and check for continuity between the hot and ground wires at different parts of the circuit.


I can do this with my multimeter, but I've never done it before. Just so I'm clear, I want to make sure the power is off, and put one probe in each opening of the outlet and listen for a beep. If I don't get a beep, that means that the short is somewhere from that outlet to the circuit breaker, right? 

Kevin


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> I can do this with my multimeter, but I've never done it before. Just so I'm clear, I want to make sure the power is off, and put one probe in each opening of the outlet and listen for a beep. If I don't get a beep, that means that the short is somewhere from that outlet to the circuit breaker, right?
> 
> Kevin


No.... You're still going to need to break your hot into segments as everyone explained above. Otherwise you can't tell in which direction (upstream/downstream) your short is if you get continuity.

Further, you need to check hot (the small receptical slot) verse the ground slot also as that could be your short path also.

And not to get too complicated, but you are intrinsically assuming in this test that you do not have a hot/neutral reverse in your circut recepticals.


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Is your meter or tester capable of checking for continuity?

There should be no continuity between:

- the hot side of a receptacle and the neutral side 

- the hot side of a receptacle and the ground


----------



## Toller (Jan 2, 2013)

mm11 said:


> Not a good idea to keep reclosing the breaker onto a fault.


You can/should say that again.
When it happened to me, I kept closing the breaking thinking I might be lucky. My wife yells that there are flashing coming out of a cabinet full of paper napkins. Extraordinary luck it didn't catch on fire.
A mouse chewed through a hole shorting a wire. Cabinet was full of vaporized mouse top, with his bottom on the other side of the hole.


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Toller said:


> A mouse chewed through a hole shorting a wire. Cabinet was full of vaporized mouse top, with his bottom on the other side of the hole.


 
was it this guy?


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

Thanks again guys for all the replies... I think I fixed it (fingers crossed). After disassembling almost every outlet, switch and fixture in my living room and foyer, I think I found the problem. A few months ago, I repainted my foyer and in the process, I switched out the outlets and switches for new white ones. When I took one of the switches out of the wall, I noticed the ground wire was running very close to one of the screws for the terminals. I think when I pushed it into the box, the ground wire bent and came really close to the terminal. Now that its warmer out and things are expanding, perhaps the wire came close enough to cause a short. 

In any event, once I pulled that switch out of the wall, the breaker stopped tripping. I also replaced my outside GFI outlet and put a new outdoor cover on to keep the weather out. 

Thanks again for the help. 

Kevin


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

,,,:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Kyle_in_rure (Feb 1, 2013)

Toller said:


> You can/should say that again.
> When it happened to me, I kept closing the breaking thinking I might be lucky. My wife yells that there are flashing coming out of a cabinet full of paper napkins. Extraordinary luck it didn't catch on fire.
> A mouse chewed through a hole shorting a wire. Cabinet was full of vaporized mouse top, with his bottom on the other side of the hole.


----------



## bobgodd (Sep 14, 2012)

I just saw this and was going to reply with what you found! I had the same thing happen to me, changed a receptacle and when pushing it back into the box the ground wire hit a screw lol. Glad you found it.


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> I think I fixed it (fingers crossed). After disassembling almost every outlet, switch and fixture in my living room and foyer, I think I found the problem. A few months ago, I repainted my foyer and in the process, I switched out the outlets and switches for new white ones.


 
You should have started with any devices that you or anyone else had changed, manipulated or touched in the last few months. May have saved a little time.

But at least you found the cause.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

hammerlane said:


> You should have started with any devices that you or anyone else had changed, manipulated or touched in the last few months. May have saved a little time.
> 
> But at least you found the cause.


And that's why we've got to be as carefull as possible to keep those grounds and theeir piggys as neatly folded and tucked in the back as possible. 

OP... don't know if it was the issue in this case... but in a crowded box... sometimes there is extra insurance to wrap the switch/recep terminals with a band of tape.


----------



## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> And that's why we've got to be as carefull as possible to keep those grounds and theeir piggys as neatly folded and tucked in the back as possible.


Also why I've said there is a sort of "art" to folding wires back into a box.


----------



## Ler0y Jenkins (May 5, 2008)

hammerlane said:


> You should have started with any devices that you or anyone else had changed, manipulated or touched in the last few months. May have saved a little time.
> 
> But at least you found the cause.


But I was so confident in my work :yes:

Seriously though, you're right and I actually did because I started with the two recessed lights I installed after switching out the stuff in the foyer. After confirming that the wiring looked good for the recessed lights, I moved onto what the previous project, which was the foyer switches and receptacles. 

Anyway, thanks again guys. It's sure nice having power again. It's amazing how you don't really appreciate electricity until you loose it... and this wasn't even in the rooms in the house we actually use. 

Kevin


----------



## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> But I was so confident in my work :yes:
> 
> Seriously though, you're right and I actually did because I started with the two recessed lights I installed after switching out the stuff in the foyer. After confirming that the wiring looked good for the recessed lights, I moved onto what the previous project, which was the foyer switches and receptacles.
> 
> ...


If you only knew the amount of money my customers have lost with that statement: "But I was so confident in my work". This only comes out of their mouths after they've denied that they did any work in the house and then I come to find that they did.

The VERY first question I ask customers on a troubleshooting call is: "Has there been ANY recent work or changes to the home. It doesn't matter what kind: painting, siding, cabinets, exterminators, I want to hear about it all, even if it's as small as buying a new lamp and plugging it in. Any change is important." You might not be surprised at how many lies I get in response and how quickly I've found the problem when the customer is truthful. Lying doesn't help. We're professionals. Were going to find the problem and we're going to know who did it.

Mark


----------



## Kyle_in_rure (Feb 1, 2013)

busman said:


> If you only knew the amount of money my customers have lost with that statement: "But I was so confident in my work". This only comes out of their mouths after they've denied that they did any work in the house and then I come to find that they did.
> 
> The VERY first question I ask customers on a troubleshooting call is: "Has there been ANY recent work or changes to the home. It doesn't matter what kind: painting, siding, cabinets, exterminators, I want to hear about it all, even if it's as small as buying a new lamp and plugging it in. Any change is important." You might not be surprised at how many lies I get in response and how quickly I've found the problem when the customer is truthful. Lying doesn't help. We're professionals. Were going to find the problem and we're going to know who did it.
> 
> Mark


Reminds me of this...


----------



## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

Ler0y Jenkins said:


> Thanks again guys for all the replies... I think I fixed it (fingers crossed). After disassembling almost every outlet, switch and fixture in my living room and foyer, I think I found the problem. A few months ago, I repainted my foyer and in the process, I switched out the outlets and switches for new white ones. When I took one of the switches out of the wall, I noticed the ground wire was running very close to one of the screws for the terminals. I think when I pushed it into the box, the ground wire bent and came really close to the terminal. Now that its warmer out and things are expanding, perhaps the wire came close enough to cause a short.
> 
> In any event, once I pulled that switch out of the wall, the breaker stopped tripping. I also replaced my outside GFI outlet and put a new outdoor cover on to keep the weather out.
> 
> ...


I wish I'd seen this thread earlier, because I did pretty much the same thing last year. 1980s boxes were more cramped. I wish ground wires were always insulated.


----------

