# lights and power flicker and dim



## Darylh (Jan 2, 2006)

Get him back to check everthing out including the breakers. He should of done this already so have a chat with him.
Please do not attempt to fix this yourself, it is "VERY DANGERIOUS"


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## AlCopStore (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi MVA28, This sounds like a serious issue that you'd want to get on top of right away. Keep in mind that aluminum wire can cause problems throughout your entire house, not just at the breaker box. Have you or an electrician tried "Pigtailing" copper wire onto your existing aluminum wire? That is, have you recently tried connecting a new device (like a ceiling fan or something) that has copper wire to your aluminum branch?


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

I'll type this but it is going to sound positively stupid. CAREFULLY take the panel cover off. Turn off the lights in the room that the panel is in and get it as dark as possible. Sit in front of panel (not too close) enjoy a cocktail and watch for arcing. My guess is that it's the neutral that is going to be the culprit. You are looking for something that will look like a brief flash of blue light. If you don't want to waste a lot of time drinking in front of your panel, you could jiggle (NOT TRY TO PULL OUT) jiggle the wires coming into your main and neutral and see if you see the arcing. Don't do this if you've been drinking in front of your panel.

I know this sounds dumb. I am absolutely serious.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

goose134 said:


> I'll type this but it is going to sound positively stupid. CAREFULLY take the panel cover off. Turn off the lights in the room that the panel is in and get it as dark as possible. Sit in front of panel (not too close) enjoy a cocktail and watch for arcing. My guess is that it's the neutral that is going to be the culprit. You are looking for something that will look like a brief flash of blue light. If you don't want to waste a lot of time drinking in front of your panel, you could jiggle (NOT TRY TO PULL OUT) jiggle the wires coming into your main and neutral and see if you see the arcing. Don't do this if you've been drinking in front of your panel.
> 
> I know this sounds dumb. I am absolutely serious.


 
This sounds like something I would do....


Goose knows no DIYer should ever do this!:laughing:


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

You know, I re-read my post and yeah it does sound kind of crazy. I will say this though, that if you do see the small arc it will at least point to the problem. I will say that you should NOT stick your hand in there and jiggle wires. 
Speaking of staring at a panel with a cocktail....:whistling2:


Thanks Andy for calling me on that one.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

just saying...:laughing: :yes: :thumbup: :jester:


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## Kingsmurf (Feb 3, 2008)

problem is . . . .that it is unknown how much of the aluminum wire insulation has burnty off inside a wall somewhere . .if this is a rental you live in
. . . . .it is unsafe in any but an replaced condition . . .find other quarters

if this is one you are buying . . .PLEASE . .start replacing that fire hazrd with decent copper wire . . .even if it has to be done in surface raceway to save the many many wall cuts that would have to be made . . . 

I have had some experience with trying to patch up. . .or make safe old aluminum wiring . . .and it is my opinion that you cannot . . . 

find a sparky in your area you can work with and get that crap deleted


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Kingsmurf said:


> problem is . . . .that it is unknown how much of the aluminum wire insulation has burnty off inside a wall somewhere . .if this is a rental you live in
> . . . . .it is unsafe in any but an replaced condition . . .find other quarters
> 
> if this is one you are buying . . .PLEASE . .start replacing that fire hazrd with decent copper wire . . .even if it has to be done in surface raceway to save the many many wall cuts that would have to be made . . .
> ...


 

Don't even get me started.:laughing: 


Even Wiremold? To replace AL in a home?

WtF? Why would you even consider it?

Just asking....could be wrong.


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Plus we're not even sure if just the service conductors are Al or all the branch circuits. As for Wiremold. Last ditch doesn't begin to describe how far down the chain that stuff is. Nothing personal, I just think that the sin of a wiremold install will never be covered.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Goose.,, now you mention wiremold i did see one house with *full* of wiremold everywhere i just nearly dropped my jaw how the guy ran it. my reaction more like this >>  .,,,,


I dont know how he did that but sorta kinda remind me of old Edison days of K&T wires everywhere in the house.

but he asked me to fix a simple issue with GFCI and end up have redo the whole house and get rid tons of wiremold devices.

Merci, Marc


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## Kingsmurf (Feb 3, 2008)

*Kingsmurf*

I wonder if we are describing the same product? . . .WireMold series 500
metall raceway...metal boxes...all grounded... THHN stranded cooper as size required 

has been an viable alternative in some cases . . . .a good case is where one has to eliminate AL wiringf in an old home with lath and plaster . . .walls
nicley painted...amd the cost to replater..texture...repaint . . .TO THE HOME OWNER warranted this unique use

it is OBVIOUS . . although it can be run in an somewhat "overlookable manner . . . . .


isnt my druthers but at times it can be an alternative to lraving dnagerous AL in the walls...if its branch circuit wiring in question


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## mva28 (Feb 4, 2008)

*what i've done..*

I took the breaker out and looked at it... it looks fine... replaced it into a different slot... they still flicker, but not as bad, and i went back and looked at the wiring... it is al. wire that is coming in, But all the other wires are copper... trust me i checked... So now i don't know if the breakers are going bad, or the breaker box itself is going bad or what... thanks for the tip on the cocktail and staring at it... i have starred long enough in the dark to hear the frying noise, and see nothing... and also i have tightend all the wires in the box... and still alive... but thanks for all the replys... ya'll are awesome... anymore ideas? besides calling out an expensive electrician... haha...


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## Kingsmurf (Feb 3, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

great...house ..branch circuit wiring is copper....okay lets work on the entry conductors that are AL . . .

A..did you say ALL the house lights flicker? or just some of them?

B . .were you able to determine if they are Lindsco or Zinsco breakers? . .
long-ish skinny . . .take one of yours out and take it to supply 
house or even Home Depot just to determine type . .you didnt 
say if you had replaced any of the old breakers? . .if it is an older Linsco / Zinsco panel . .they had bus bars where the breakers land that would pit
from sparking . .and sometines it is the breaker itself.

Also..these breakers had a terrible past of NOT opening on the breakers rating . . .IE a 20 amp breaker...breaking the circuit at 20 amps . .so they would turn into your basic toaster elements . . .

C go ahead and call the Power Company and ask them to replace the
entry conductors from the meter to your panel in copper . .snapping 
/ popping / frying . . .sounds like bad place on the bus bar in a Zinsco
panel or seriously oxidized AL conductors

D . . . .do they flicker all the time? or sporadically? if sporadically
turn on a known flickering light...dispense the cordless phones to you and friend and have friend watch lights whilst you . . . ."wiggle" each breaker..one by one

if I can help [email protected]


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

As to point C, you are responsible for the conductors from the line side of the meter to the service drop conductors. I think the general thought here is that the Al service conductors from the meter to the panel are suspect. Also possible that conductors from meter to drop are loose. 

As for the breaker brand, it is definitely possible that the breakers are defective. I didn't see a location in your profile, but Federal Pacific breakers are one of the most problematic breakers in existence. Do you have an amprobe? If your current is high and the breaker isn't tripping, this could be the buzzing sound. If that is the case that buzzing will soon be a sound like BANG! So, you need an electrician to check out: 

1. the connections on main breaker and neutral. If these are tight have him:
2. probe the offending circuit with an ammeter and see if it is in trip range. If it is, replace breaker. If it is Federal Pacific, replace entire panel.

If everything there checks out, call POCO and have them open meter can and check terminations on load and line.


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## Kingsmurf (Feb 3, 2008)

Goose...I'm visualizing the meter socket at my mystery panel..I ...THINK I meant the conductors from load side of meter to the lugs on the panel..problem..I do not think I have access to the load side of meter . .I mean at the Meter . .is that part not sealed?

I know I can get my Californian power co . .to pop it open..yank the meter and then I can replace the load side to lugs . .they cover line back up the pole to trans

I think I said it straight


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Np, you should not have access to the meter can. In fact, don't tighten the line side of your panel either. The only way to shut them off is to pull the meter. Have the power company come out and take a look at the lugs at the meter. Having been chided before for having homeowners messing about in live panels, I'm going to stop here. If the POCO doesn't find anything, let us know.


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## Kingsmurf (Feb 3, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

roger that Goose . . .having swapped out enough rotten old panels . .my PoCo here does have a SOP..they'll be happy to pop the meter . .clean up their end of things . . .they'll even change out line side to my lugs at the service panel . .if I provide conductor . . .( I swap out the old AL )

Truth? . .I think its something I missed . .going back to this one today
. . .been laying here thinking aboutthe symptoms . .and I'll bet its a bad neutral . . . .this is a mobile home park...an older one . .the power pedestals do NOT have neutral bonded to ground

two coincidences combine . . one . .this went out when we had that bad storm . . and secondly . .when I went into that very panel to fix breaker and connections for some storm drain pumps . . .it coincided with this problem

will slow down...analyze more closly and learn something


got into this trade rather late in life . .nice that theres PLENTY left to learn

Kingsmurf


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## mva28 (Feb 4, 2008)

*Its a Zinsco panel*

* I did break down and call out an electrician, He checked the main breaker(200 amp) and its the one that had been arching... also one of the 100 amp breakers showed signs of overheating... I got online and typed in zinsco breakers and a website popped up saying how dangerous Zinsco breakers are... and these breakers are not cheap... like $200 bucks each... I'm guessing to make it safer, to just have the panel replaced which could run up to $600 bucks... ANY THOUGHTS ON THE ZINSCO BREAKERS AND PANELS?*


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

It's easy for me to say this sitting in my living room, but have the panel swapped out. Go for a more reliable brand like Square D or Siemens. I know the money is a drag but it's a lot cheaper than the damage to equipment or (God forbid) loved ones. 
On the upshot, it'll be cheaper than upgrading the service.


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