# Main structural support beam HELP!!!



## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

Okay first thing first I have got a two story home with the 2nd floor ready for sheetrock and a full unfinished basement. The problem is I noticed that the hardwood floors in my hallway started to rise and the boards started to seperate. (first thought was water issue) I checked for water with negative results. I then went into my basement and noticed that where the floor was rising is where the structural support beam runs from one end to the other. I noticed that the support beam is 5 2x8's or 10's (havent measured) and a stripped down piece for the floor joist to sit on for support. The support beam is supported by several metal poles with a steel plate on top of the pole. I noticed that the steel plate wasnt the same width as the support beam and the beam was starting to sag on both sides where is wasnt sitting on the plate that is attatched to the pole. What I done was jacked up the beam and replaced the plate attached to the pole with 6 inch channel that supported the entire width of the beam and that seemed to level the hump out pretty well in my floor but not all the way. In between the poles it still sags a little, my question is if I was to jack up each floor joist and install joist hangers would that do the job? It seems to me that the floor joist just isnt supported enough by what appears to be a 1x1 nailed to the beam and the floor joist notched to sit on. This might be confusing but I hope someone can help me please.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Daniel048225 said:


> Okay first thing first I have got a two story home with the 2nd floor ready for sheetrock and a full unfinished basement. The problem is I noticed that the hardwood floors in my hallway started to rise and the boards started to seperate. (first thought was water issue) I checked for water with negative results. I then went into my basement and noticed that where the floor was rising is where the structural support beam runs from one end to the other. I noticed that the support beam is 5 2x8's or 10's (havent measured) and a stripped down piece for the floor joist to sit on for support. The support beam is supported by several metal poles with a steel plate on top of the pole. I noticed that the steel plate wasnt the same width as the support beam and the beam was starting to sag on both sides where is wasnt sitting on the plate that is attatched to the pole. What I done was jacked up the beam and replaced the plate attached to the pole with 6 inch channel that supported the entire width of the beam and that seemed to level the hump out pretty well in my floor but not all the way. In between the poles it still sags a little, my question is if I was to jack up each floor joist and install joist hangers would that do the job? It seems to me that the floor joist just isnt supported enough by what appears to be a 1x1 nailed to the beam and the floor joist notched to sit on. This might be confusing but I hope someone can help me please.


 Post pictures of the support issues.
Ron


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

From your description it sounds like the house was framed by a certifiable idiot and/or lunatic.

Post pictures, as Ron said.

Andy.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

The first pic (Beam1) is the channel I was talking about to cover the entire width of the support beam.

The 2nd pic (beam2) is the 1x1 and the floor joist notched and that is what I think is not supported enough.

The 3rd pic (beam3) is just another view of the floor joist.

The 4th pic (beam4) is of the beam.

I was thinking about jacking the beam to where it is level and then drilling a hole through all the supports and getting a hardened threaded rod and bolting everything together to where it could not sag. The 3 center ones seem to be fine its only the 1x1 and the outside board the floor joist is attatched to seem to sag. Once I think about it some joist hangers would not fix anything due to the board the joist is nailed to is sagging. Somehow I need to attach everything together and pull it tight. Any ideas would help...:confused1::confused1::confused1:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

What you have is acceptable, per code and probably passed a building inspection; 

*R502.6 Bearing.* The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm by 102 mm) ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of _approved_ joist hangers.
From; http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec002_par022.htm

The 2x2 nailed to the built-up girder is fine if a 2x8. You are allowed to notch the ends d/4, or 7-1/4 /4 = 1-7/8” Page 2; 
http://arch.umd.edu/Tech/Structural...Wood_Products/Notching_&_Boring_Guide_A11.pdf

Are any of the joists greatly below the girder? By how much?

Gary


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

None of the joist are below the gridle. The girdle, joist and the board the joist is toe nailed into are all sagging.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

the problem with built-up flush beams with that many plies is the outside boards end up bearing most of the weight. it's a load-sharing deficiency where the boards in the center hardly end up carrying as much as the outside boards....

You've realized adding joist hangers won't solve your problem.

Like you suggested I think through-bolts w/ washers every so often would help. Spacing and sizing I'm not qualified to help you, i'm not an engineer, but anything would be better than nothing. But probably won't fix any sag.

If everything is sagging then it could be overloaded/overspanned?


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

Another thing I have thought about doing is placing some 3 inch channel exactly like the 6 inch except without the poles. Hard to picture but the best way I know how to explain this idea is drilling holes into the channel and running lag bolts into every board and pulling everything flush. I dont know this is just a thought along with running the threaded rod and tightening everything up good. Thoughts greatly appreciated.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You have a few issues with this construction. I think the sagging main beam doesn't have enough vertical supports holding it up.
It would help if you told us:
1. The entire span of this beam and the size of the joists that make it up?
2. Does the beam rest in a pocket(or on) in the foundation on each side?
3. The number of support poles and how far apart they are?

The other issue is that notching the floor joists effectively reduces the joist size. Making a 2x10 into a 2x8. How far do the floor joists span?
I've been informed that the notch in the joist end would have to be larger to effect it's strength so it seems it does not weaken the joist.

You could better support the floor joist with hangers, but that will not address the sagging issue.
You should definitely unitize the beam by bolting it together along the span. 
Are all the splices of the multi joist beam over support poles? 
Is there any indication that the present set up is a change from the original construction? Usually the floor joists sit on top of the main beam. This configuration looks like someone wanted higher clearances in the basement so they integrated to beam into the floor joist plane.
Ron


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

First off, as GBR pointed out, the method of attaching the joists is per code. It DOES NOT effectively reduce the 2x8 to a 2x6, because the center of the joist, which is the point of maximum moment, remains full size. The end of the joist simply supports the joist in shear, and code explicitly states that 1.5 inches is sufficient.

I am unclear why you believe the beam is sagging. Did you perform measurements with a laser, water level, carpenters level, or does it simply look like it sagged? All beams will eventually deflect, that is the nature of wood, it takes a permanent set under load over time. You may be far better off shimming the floor to make it level than getting into a complex structural fix for what may not be a structural problem at all.

Drilling holes and bolting the beam pieces together may not achieve anything if the pieces are already nailed together adequately. They certainly look like they are connected by something, they are very tight (no visible space). If properly nailed, installing bolts can cause more trouble than it cures.

As to the comments that the framing is bizarre, without detailed information about the spans and loads, I would not be so quick to condemn the framing, from the pictures it looks to be carefully done, and it looks like it meets code.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

You cannot tell alot in the pics on the saggin I'm talking about. the outside support where the joist sits sags down a good bit further than the center ones that are all in line. I didnt use a level I can visually tell they sag looking between the poles. The entire span of the beam is 50ft and it sits on top of the block foundation. The poles are 8-9 feet off the wall and 8-9 feet apart from each other. If I take a steel plate and place it against the beam the two outside supports are roughly 1/2inch lower than the 3 center. like I said in a previous post when I replaced the small steel plate with the six inch channel that covered the entire width of the beam it helped in leveling the floor.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

The splices in the beam are not all together they are random throughout the basement. I know this is kinda difficult without seeing it in person but please keep asking questions and I will see what I can do to provide more information. Thanks


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> First off, as GBR pointed out, the method of attaching the joists is per code. It DOES NOT effectively reduce the 2x8 to a 2x6, because the center of the joist, which is the point of maximum moment, remains full size. The end of the joist simply supports the joist in shear, and code explicitly states that 1.5 inches is sufficient.


I guess they don't see a lot of these:


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

fungku said:


> A 7-ply built-up flush beam is ridiculous, IMO...


It's actually a 5ply per se as the outside two pieces are ledgers. If it's to code, which it may well be, then its a damn silly code!
As fungku says, it's probably improperly spaced beam supports. It could also be an undersized beam or the crown on the beams is upside down.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

mrgins said:


> It's actually a 5ply per se


 haha right, i counted on the photo that is from directly below and was like wtf 
it was 4.a.m. when i made that post... so at least I have an excuse?


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## Sammy 2 (Feb 10, 2011)

Whats the rule regarding beam splices, do they all have to be on the posts or within a certain distance of the post ??


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Sammy 2 said:


> Whats the rule regarding beam splices, do they all have to be on the posts or within a certain distance of the post ??


at quarter points that are not over a support, but it's a complicated explanation, and there are other requirements that need to be met as well.










(150mm = 6")


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm going to speculate that the beam as built originally was fully supported by the steel plates. In the OP, he indicated that the beam was not fully supported by the steel plates on the top of the posts and that on either side the beam was sagging. I suggest that the structure was originally a triple beam and for some reason joists were cut to add additional boards on each side to attempt to remedy sagging of the beam, perhaps because it was undersized from the start or because load was somehow added.

Let's start from the beginning with more about the house. When was it built? Where is this? Has there been additions, was this originally a 2 story house?

Also, what's with the insulation in the floor joists? We're talking about a basement, you first noticed sagging in a hallway, and this is a 2 story house. Insulation on an interior wall might be fine if you have conditioned space on both sides and are using it for sound deadening I guess, but otherwise this could be trapping moisture... Have you looked to see what's under the insulation?


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

fungku said:


> I guess they don't see a lot of these:


Welded steel truss and a piece of lumber are very different things though. The steel truss gets strength from the pieces of steel, steel being a material that is generally the same strength in all directions, and those pieces of steel having their strength and their load in the direction of their long axis.

Wood is strong in the direction of the length of their grain. Loading perpindicular to the grain tends to shear the fibers of the wood, particular at cross-sectional discontinuities. But that's where joist hangers come in.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

WillK said:


> Welded steel truss and a piece of lumber are very different things though. The steel truss gets strength from the pieces of steel, steel being a material that is generally the same strength in all directions, and those pieces of steel having their strength and their load in the direction of their long axis.
> 
> Wood is strong in the direction of the length of their grain. Loading perpindicular to the grain tends to shear the fibers of the wood, particular at cross-sectional discontinuities. But that's where joist hangers come in.


or pressure blocking, but neither is the issue here.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

If you have any more questions to help me let me know and I will answer the best I can. Thanks


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Daniel048225 said:


> If you have any more questions to help me let me know and I will answer the best I can. Thanks


We need more info.

At least:

Distance between vertical supports and joist spans on either side of the beam.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

If yall have any more ideas or questions just let me know. Thanks


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

The basement is 50ft long and 28ft wide with the beam splitting the 28ft. The poles run the 50ft length and are 8ft apart. The beam sits on top of the exterior block walls. I am going to take an overall pic of the basement and post it to hopefully help.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

The house was built in 1995 and I reside in South Carolina. There hasnt been any additions from the original 2-story construction. I would guess the insulation was just because of the temp difference from the main living area and the basement. I did look under the insulation to see if i could see a difference in the sub floor and all I saw was good grade plywood not crappy osb board that looked normal to me.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Daniel048225 said:


> The basement is 50ft long and 28ft wide with the beam splitting the 28ft. The poles run the 50ft length and are 8ft apart. The beam sits on top of the exterior block walls. I am going to take an overall pic of the basement and post it to hopefully help.


So your joists are spanning almost 14'?

That joist span is within canadian code for a typical 2x10 joist with bridging/blocking, 5/8 subfloor nailed down, but is nearly maxed out.
And the built-up beam supporting 2 floors is also within code here.

Can you take photos of the sagging parts?

Someone who knows the code in your area may provide better help.

In fact if there really is an issue it would be better to call an engineer.

Something to consider though:
After a house is built it will experience settling, the new lumber shrinks as it dries out, etc... so the problem may just be you installed hardwood on a floor that wasn't flat and now you're seeing the effects?


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

This is an overall shot of the basement layout. Hope this helps.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

Hear is a close up of the part of the beam that is sagging the pics looks worse than it really is. The board that is dropped down is the one that the notched out joist is sitting on and the one beside it is also dropped down a little.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

Okay, I'm going to back up and ask more questions about the original post. You removed the original plates on the top of the columns and put in chanel that was wide enough to span all 5 boards of the built up beam... Describe how you did that?

I'm wondering about whether the basement floor is properly supporting the columns. Basement floor is poured with a footing wall that goes deep enough to support the exterior walls going all the way up to the roof, the floor doesn't have to be that deep but there should be footings which require greater depth than the floor itself... The columns should be rigidly attached to these footings. Sometimes this is done by setting the columns into the concrete footings, otherwise it should by bolts set into the concrete. Either way, a seam in the concrete ought to be apparent at each column.

I don't see that sort of evidence of a footing under each column from your picture. Do you see any evidence of a footing under each column?

Beyond that, I'm wondering if they had sunk into the concrete at all if there wasn't a footing... If you had to take the columns out to change the plate at the top, did you notice anything like that?

My question about what's under the insulation wasn't so much about lumber, it was about whether any moisture had been trapped and if there had been any damage, rot or mildew that might indicate deterioration of the wood. I definitely have had that on my floor joists... Then again, Michigan sees a bit more cold than South Carolina.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

What I done was jacked up the beam just enough to remove the pole, took a torch and cut the weld that was holding the smaller plate on and then welded the channel on the pole. I havent seen any evidence of more support for the poles even while I had them down one at a time. The first thing I done was check the basement floor for any cracks evidence of sinking floor and didnt see anything. And I wasnt thinking right when you was asking about floor but I checked for that when I thought at first it was a moisture problem and didnt see anything.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

In the overall shot of the basement I'm sure you noticed the pole laying on the ground? I used that pole with a bottle jack on top and another piece of channel on top of the bottle jack to lift the beam.


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## Daniel048225 (Sep 22, 2009)

Im about to the point where I just want to rip up the hardwood floor and then the subfloor just to get a better look but I know that I would be crazy to do that without exhausting every effort.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm still thinking floor... beyond cracks, you can look for it not being flat by laying a board across it and seeing if it touches the floor along the entire length. Particularly, look around the outer posts where you're suspecting sag. If the floor is flat, then see if the columns measure shorter.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Daniel048225 said:


> Im about to the point where I just want to rip up the hardwood floor and then the subfloor just to get a better look but I know that I would be crazy to do that without exhausting every effort.


The basement has an open ceilling, all you need to do is remove the insulation and look up to see the subfloor. What are you going to see from the top, you can't see from the bottom.
Post a picture of the floor issue over the beam so we can see what's happening.
Ron


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

did you check floor to see if it was flat before installing hardwood? :whistling2:


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