# Need to Install Hand Rail on Basement Stairs, but on Concrete Wall



## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Hi, I wanted to run this procedure by the experts here to make sure I'm not forgetting anything. I am renting a house and to older folks, and when I remodeled my basement, I didn't put a hand rail back in. The basement stairs go straight down all the way and then you walk off the staircase to the right. The right side wall is opened up, and opens at the 2nd stair from the top. 

The staircase runs right next to the poured concrete wall on the left.

I am going to install a short hand rail at the top 2-3 stairs on the right, but then will have to install a much longer hand rail on the left side that will go right into the concrete.

Because there was literally no space between the staircase and concrete wall, I couldn't use 2x4s to hang drywall, otherwise it would have overhung the staircase and looked dumb. So, I liquid nailed furring strips to the concrete, and hung drywall that way. I also liquid nailed foam insulation.

So, what i plan to do is use tapcon screws, find 3 furring strips somehow (they aren't exactly 16 on center), and drill holes there for the hand rail brackets. Will tapcon screws tighten well enough to not have a loose rail? Is this the best way? 

I planned to use 2 1/4" tap cons. The furring strips are 1/2 inch, drywall 1/2 inch, then bracket probably about 1/4, so that leaves 1 inch of screw secured to the concrete. 

Is there anything I'm missing? Is this sufficient?

Also, would it be a bad idea if I were to not find a furring strip and drill the holes to the brackets just on drywall and into the concrete? I would not imagine that would be as secure and the drywall might tear. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I just want to make sure I know what I need to do before going over there and spending 6 hours searching needlessly for studs.

It's going to be hard to find the studs on the concrete wall. Any other ideas would be helpful. Foam insulation is I think 3/8 or 1/2" back there as well so I dont know if tapping along the drywall would be helpful.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You need solid blocking for the handrail brackets. If the furring isn't where you need it or you can't find them, open the sheetrock and install blocking where you need it.
I would use anchors in the concrete and the handrail screws.
Ron


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## TheDoorGuy (Jun 23, 2010)

I agree completely with Ron6.You need to find the center of the wood backing
with a stud finder or by hunting with a finish nail....Bring the spackle!
If you just anchor through a drywall area your brackets will eventually compress
and wobble in the drywall.
I like tapcon type screws for many things but I think anchors and long snug fittling
screws would provide better holding power..
Another way to get positive holding power would be to secure a 1x6 to the wall with
plenty of tapcon screws and then screw the rail brackets to that...This way you would avoid
any dry wall compression.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Thank you for the help.

I have never used concrete anchors before. Are they something that I can install after drilling the hole through the drywall and wood or do I need to have opened up concrete wall to be able to install the anchor?

Also, I have seen concrete anchors with nails or a thread with nut/bolt on the end. Do they make a concrete anchor that once in, will accept a machine screw or something like that to screw right into the anchor, much like drywall anchors? If you can provide a link to one that would help.

Edit 2: This the kind of anchor/screw you are referring to?
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

One other thing, the hand rail brackets have 3 holes. If i install 3 anchors, is there enough distance from each one to not cause any problems with the concrete breaking? Or should I install just one for the 2 holes next to each other, then another one for the bottom hole on the bracket?

I was also thinking to install the anchor so that the tip of the anchor is level with the surface of the drywall, and then all support on the hand rail is pushing on the anchor not the drywall at all. Maybe this is what you guys meant, but initially I was thinking to hammer in the anchor flush with concrete.


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

I would not use tapcons. As a stairbuilder I would never attach a wall rail to concrete unless there is no other option. I would put the rail on the otherside. Even if it is open a few steps, you can attach an s turn fitting or just make one with a few miters.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't know what an S-Turn fitting is. I don't know what you mean.

The 3 top stairs have wall on the other side, then it's completely opened for the next 9-10 stairs. I am not sure what other option there is really.

Out of curiosity, what is the reason not to use tapcons in this case?


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Expansion anchors are what you need for this project. Here is a link: http://www.confast.com/products/thunderstud-anchor.aspx


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Epson,

The holes in the hand rail brackets will not fit a 1/4" screw. Do you recommend I use a sleeve anchor 1/4 (which has I think a 3/16" screw that WILL fit through the hole), or do you recommend that i drill the holes out a bit larger in the hand rails and go with the 1/4" expansion anchors?


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Firehawk734 said:


> Epson,
> 
> The holes in the hand rail brackets will not fit a 1/4" screw. Do you recommend I use a sleeve anchor 1/4 (which has I think a 3/16" screw that WILL fit through the hole), or do you recommend that i drill the holes out a bit larger in the hand rails and go with the 1/4" expansion anchors?


The best way is drill out the hole to accept the proper ¼’’ expansion anchor. We have used sleeve anchors in the past and had nothing but problems with them. Once you install that anchor into concrete you will never be called back to fix a lose railing or hand rail again unless someone damages your installation.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

epson said:


> Expansion anchors are what you need for this project. Here is a link: http://www.confast.com/products/thunderstud-anchor.aspx


No, this is not the anchor you would use.
You would use a plastic or lead anchor that a handrail size screw would fit into. A number 10 or a number 12 should do it.
The anchor above is for bolting framing members to a wall or slab.
Ron


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

These are the ones.
Ron


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> These are the ones.
> Ron


Ron in my experience we have used those types of anchors in concrete and in other applications and after a while they do fail so we switched and started using expansion anchors into concrete and haven’t had a single problem with any of our installations. 
 The plastic anchors in my opinion are terrible and I wouldn’t use them for any application, I would always change them out and use a better anchor. As for the lead anchors, yes they work well but to an extent also. We almost always had to come back and replace.
That’s my .02 cents


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

epson said:


> Ron in my experience we have used those types of anchors in concrete and in other applications and after a while they do fail so we switched and started using expansion anchors into concrete and haven’t had a single problem with any of our installations.
> The plastic anchors in my opinion are terrible and I wouldn’t use them for any application, I would always change them out and use a better anchor. As for the lead anchors, yes they work well but to an extent also. We almost always had to come back and replace.
> That’s my .02 cents


He's screwing in a handrail bracket. It has a hole for a size 10 screw. How is that anchor, with the big honking nut going to work?
Ron


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## General (Dec 11, 2010)

I completely agree with Epson. What Ron recommends will not hold up.

I use plastic anchors in concrete often to hold small electrical equipment (small boxes, small EMT conduit, etc.). They work ok in those situations, but in any situation in which there will be movement the anchors will loosen quickly. Also, when too much weight is applied with leverage (as is the case with a handrail bracket) the anchors will pull right out.

There are PLENTY of handrail brackets with a single larger hole in the middle, these would work with the concrete anchors. These types of brackets are also good for attaching a handrail to a normal wall since you can use one large lag bolt to attach the bracket to a stud. The type of handrail brackets with 3 small holes have the holes spaced too far apart and at least one of the screws would not go into the stud.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Ron6519 said:


> He's screwing in a handrail bracket. It has a hole for a size 10 screw. How is that anchor, with the big honking nut going to work?
> Ron


By drilling out the hole to except the larger anchor I have done this many times and had no problem doing it. It’s only a ¼’’ hole he needs to drill out.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

General said:


> I completely agree with Epson. What Ron recommends will not hold up.
> 
> I use plastic anchors in concrete often to hold small electrical equipment (small boxes, small EMT conduit, etc.). They work ok in those situations, but in any situation in which there will be movement the anchors will loosen quickly. Also, when too much weight is applied with leverage (as is the case with a handrail bracket) the anchors will pull right out.
> 
> There are PLENTY of handrail brackets with a single larger hole in the middle, these would work with the concrete anchors. These types of brackets are also good for attaching a handrail to a normal wall since you can use one large lag bolt to attach the bracket to a stud. The type of handrail brackets with 3 small holes have the holes spaced too far apart and at least one of the screws would not go into the stud.


We have used both handrail brackets mentioned and General is correct on the one bracket with three holes. I either drill out a ¼’’ hole or a 3/16’’ and I never had a problem installing them or had a call back because they have become lose or need repair.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Ok it looks like I'm going with expansion anchors, and I really like the idea of ONE HOLE to drill per bracket. Do you know where I can get brackets like that without having to order online? I do not remember seeing them at home depot but then again i wasn't looking for that.

Also, the longest 1/4" expansion anchor is sold at Home Depot or lowes is 2 1/4". Seems maybe I should find a longer one than that. I have to go through approximately 1 1/4 inch material before hitting the concrete. Is 1 inch enough depth into the concrete?


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## General (Dec 11, 2010)

I would personally go with something a bit bigger than 1/4". Here is a 3/8" anchor which is 5" long, seems like that is the perfect length for your application: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

You can also try the 5/16" sleeve anchor, a little bit smaller than the 3/8".

How Depot's website is showing many brackets with single holes in the middle, you may have to enlarge the hole a bit. You can always try another store in your area.

When you are done installing the anchor you can use a hacksaw turned upside down in order to cut the bolt off flush with the nut.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the help guys. I have taken pieces of all the suggestions. I'm going to get long enough 5/16" expansion anchors (have to order them, because I need one at least 3 inches long I think), and will go with 1-hole brackets (picked some up at HD). I just have to drill the hole larger and it appears there is JUST ENOUGH clearance for the nut (but not washer, may need to get another washer with smaller OD).


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

this is what I would do. http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTb37xL8BxpZA6O1juDa16rma5DJhyqidFibzNgZnp49y1iHDOxag

you can also make these by making square miters.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Miller,

I could potentially do that but my stairs beyond where the wall opens do not extend like in that pic. I framed a 2x6 stud wall at the same angle as the staircase, and then ran a piece of nice wood down as a finish. So, any pegs I put would have to be cut at the right angle and screwed on from underneath (guessing that's how you would do it). I do have access under the stairway.

That is very nice though.


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

Why are you trying to attach the rail to the left side? Why not install a couple of 2x4s from the stair stringer to the ceiling joists and then attach the handrail brackets to that? I don't put much faith in the 1/2" glued firring strips, even if you can find them


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

mrgins said:


> Why are you trying to attach the rail to the left side? Why not install a couple of 2x4s from the stair stringer to the ceiling joists and then attach the handrail brackets to that? I don't put much faith in the 1/2" glued firring strips, even if you can find them


There's no space for 2x4s. The basement is finished. I don't want the right side closed off. I deliberately finished it that way. 

I am just going to go through the furring strips into the concrete behind it, so the furring strips will be nothing more than support for the rail brackets.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

I just wanted to follow up. I completed the job, it only took me about 1 hour, not bad for never having done something like this, as simple as it was.

I used a little bit of everyone's advice. Thank you very much. 

I ended up using 1/4" wedge anchors that I found at a mom/pop hardware near me. They had the long 3 1/4" ones, Home depot did not carry these and did not have a 5/16 long enough. I also used the handrail brackets with 1 hole in them, and the 1/4" anchors fit perfectly so I didn't need to drill the hole out. If I really wanted a 5/16 I would have had to order it online and a box of 50 would have been 14.50 plus 10 shipping, and I only ended up using 2.

So, I installed 4' worth on the right side wall into the studs, and 6 1/2 feet on the left wall into the concrete, made sure to find a furring strip, and went through there. The job turned out very nice. My tenants were very happy with it.

So, thank you all very much for the suggestions. I am happy I used the wedge anchors, now I can remove the rail if need be before someone tries moving a couch down there, and I don't have to worry about not being able to tighten it back up. Great ideas guys, and the 1-hole brackets were much better as well. I am glad I only had to drill 2 holes instead of 6!


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

Glad it all worked out for you… :thumbsup:


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

The wedge anchor idea was excellent epson. I will always remember that suggestion for future concrete applications. Thank you very much.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

We are all here to help one another with a problem, question, or how to that’s why this site is here and you always learn something new.


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## Firehawk734 (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes I learn just by reading other people's problems and their solutions. You can never know enough it seems. Every job presents something unique.


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## emarti22 (Jan 10, 2012)

epson said:


> Expansion anchors are what you need for this project. Here is a link: http://www.confast.com/products/thunderstud-anchor.aspx


Hi Epson,

I was searching the internet to try to figure out how to put up a stair rail on a concrete wall to my basement when I found your post. I am wondering if I could ask you a question? I am not really sure how this DIY forum works....so if it is OK can you email me at [email protected]? I don't know how to get to your expertise otherwise

I have the big honking 1 screw handrail brackets that you suggested (got them at home depot) and I watched the video for the concrete anchors you suggested...but I cant figure out how that handrail bracket will attach to that bolt? It has a nut and a washer on the top...does that mean my bracket will have a nut and a washer on top of the screw hole? Sorry if this is a stupid question....I'm a gal with a concrete wall a handrail, a drill..and NOT alot of know how;-)


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

emarti22 said:


> Hi Epson,
> 
> I have the big honking 1 screw handrail brackets that you suggested (got them at home depot) and I watched the video for the concrete anchors you suggested...but I cant figure out how that handrail bracket will attach to that bolt? It has a nut and a washer on the top...does that mean my bracket will have a nut and a washer on top of the screw hole? Sorry if this is a stupid question....I'm a gal with a concrete wall a handrail, a drill..and NOT alot of know how;-)


Hi liz, 
What you have to do is drill the proper size hole and depth for your anchor it will tell you on the box. Then hammer it into the concrete not all the way in. Put your handrail bracket over the anchor and see how much more you have to hammer the anchor in. Then put the washer on and then the nut. 
Note: when you are hammering the anchor screw the nut to the top of the thread that way you will not damage any thread while hammering. Also use a concrete bit to drill into your wall.
Hope this helps…


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## emarti22 (Jan 10, 2012)

*Thank you Epson!*

That is what I thought I would have to do...I think I will use an acorn bolt on the top for asthetics....sound ok?
:thumbsup:


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Acorn nut should workfine. Have to have right amount of threads sticking out. Too much an you nut won't get tight or it will break off the acorn, to little and the nut does not grip enough threads.
Use some Loctite on the treads.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

emarti22 said:


> That is what I thought I would have to do...I think I will use an acorn bolt on the top for asthetics....sound ok?
> :thumbsup:


You mean putting it on the wedge anchor with the nut and washer and then finishing it off with an acorn nut? If so, just for aesthetics yes but with such little thread on the acorn nut it will fall off in time. On another note if you intend to remove this handrail sometime in the future for moving purposes please don’t apply any permanent adhesive to the acorn nut. 
here are some sample acorn nuts: http://www.chromebolt.com/acorn-nut-c-54.html


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

That is why I recommend the medium strength, can still remove it. Would the acorn nut work without the regular nut under it, Just a washer and then the acorn nut? Maybe not strong enough?


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

mae-ling said:


> That is why I recommend the medium strength, can still remove it. Would the acorn nut work without the regular nut under it, Just a washer and then the acorn nut? Maybe not strong enough?


The acorn nut does not have enough thread to do what the intended anchor is used for. It can only be used as an aesthetic nut to hide the thread. And yes you can use the medium strength loctite 243 to secure the acorn nut. But once it’s on you can only remove it with hand tools and when removed you have to clean or should clean the remaining loctite on the thread before reapplying.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

There are plastic caps that go on over a nut. http://www.google.ca/search?q=plastic+cap+nut&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=VW4OT_SlK8HhiAL8rOHpDQ&biw=1006&bih=931&sei=WG4OT__5EumciQLXqYDgDQ


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

mae-ling said:


> There are plastic caps that go on over a nut. http://www.google.ca/search?q=plast...Q&biw=1006&bih=931&sei=WG4OT__5EumciQLXqYDgDQ


Yes I know all about those. Each and every one of those covers survives a different purpose for a different application and if you want to use it in this type of application go right ahead. But it will only be serving as an aesthetic finish that’s all. The strength is in the wedge anchor and how it is applied to the handrail.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

I think they want it to look good as well as be strong.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

mae-ling said:


> I think they want it to look good as well as be strong.


Yes I can understand that, but this handrail is going to be mounted on a concrete wall going to the basement. Now unless her basement is finished and she wants to cover the exposed screw’s she can, if not, there is nothing wrong with leaving it as is.


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## emarti22 (Jan 10, 2012)

*Thank you both!*

I am installing going in to the basement. I am trying to make it look really nice because we are finishing the basement in to an apartment.

SO, I am looking to use a 1/4 inch diameter anchor (how long should I go?) and then put on the washer and nut that came with it....and THEN put on one of those caps right?

Any suggestion where I can buy all this (and not in sets of 100?) I only need three

I appreciate all this help!! I think my handrail will look really great when I am done!


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