# installing Slate title to outdoor cement



## yesitsconcrete

if you have any freeze/thaw, the wife'll be upset when your work comes OFF the patio,,, other'n that, just about everything you propose won't work. concrete not being flat, makes no difference what mtl you select,,, it still won't be flat UNLESS you do it right. 

marriage counseling's another forum altogether


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## Matky

*installing Slate tile over outdoor concrete patio*

So the sand method would be acceptable?


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## Bud Cline

Obviously you haven't bothered to research anything and you just want personalized express help with this.

OK, here ya go....



> 1: use masonry cement to install, the slate tile to the cement slab.


Not on a bet! Use the proper modified thinset mortar suitable for exterior use.



> 2: use the masonry cement as a grout.


That's do-able, but use sand mix not masonry cement, you don't want the lime in there it will likely cause efflorescence.



> 3: eliminate the need of a masonry grout and butt the tiles together.


That wouldn't be smart. That would allow for water to get deep into the project and it wouldn't last the first winter.




> 4: install the tiles over the cement using sand. Paver method and lock the outer edge titles with masonry cement to keep the slate from shifting.


You must be spending too much time in the sun! That wouldn't make it through the first rainfall using slate tile. Pavers maybe but tile? NO WAY!






> I don't know of an outdoor grout.


Any Portland cement grout is an "outdoor grout".



> *I am concern about staining the slate* with the masonry cement. I do plan on treating the surface of the slate prior to installing.


As you should be. Install the slate, seal it a couple of times, grout it, seal again.




> Thanks for your time. Remember you will be saving my marriage by providing solid advice.


With some of those ideas it's a wonder she hasn't divorced you already. The above recommendations will save your marriage.

Bud Cline -
Marriage Counselor


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## Matky

Thanks Bud for the advice and saving my marriage. Actually, I did a bit of research and received multiple ideas, from places that sell slate tile. This is why I posted here. That is the problem with contractors today. If you don't know better they will do the job wrong and latter say, it not my fault you approved the work!


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## Bud Cline

I have several outdoor slate patios and walks in the state of Nebraska and brother if you don't get freeze/thaw here you don't get it anywhere.

If you have access to Mapei products I would recommend you use Mapei's KeraBond and mix it with their Keralastic additive. This will produce a better mix than what you will get buying an already modified thinset.

If you can't find Mapei I can put you onto something else.

If you have Menard's they sell Mapei products.


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## yesitsconcrete

actually pretty nice work, bud,,, indian slate ??? have you found any delamination of the slate layers yet - we're starting to get calls to replace it just for that reason,,, also doesn't have the strength pf pen argyl, vt, or va slate,,, what's the background of the compass rose ???


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## Bud Cline

The customer provided the slate. It's that stuff from Home Depot of course, they love it. I have a bunch of it inside the home also.

Did two fireplaces (one stone, one silver slate) for them a few years ago and a bathroom in porcelain.

They were warned about the shedding using it outdoors and that doesn't bother them. It easily survived last winter and nothing shed, it was snow and ice covered several times. That slate has about six coats of that $100/gal stone sealer on it. We'll see what next winter brings.

The front of the house is on a park with a lake. The compass rose points to magnetic north just for fun. The maple leaf is just a wild hair I had because of all the trees around. There is also a hummingbird and a butterfly there somewhere.

I always disclaim slate indoors or outdoors. No way I'll stand behind it. Slate sheds, that's all there is to it. It's a bigger problem in a shower where it can leach iron oxide forever, also not my problem. This patio shows signs of leaching but personally I think it is an enhancement.


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## ccarlisle

I think Bud said something that some might overlook seeing the cool pictures and all: he said *"I always disclaim slate indoors or outdoors"*...ah! true words indeed!

Now, why do you think a pro installer like Bud in Nebraska would say that? after all, according to those pictures, wouldn't you think he knows what he's doing! Wouldn't you wonder why? I don't...

Matky, I'll just add my 2cents worth to what Bud and yesitsconcrete have already intimated: there are problems with slate outdoors and in my relatively limited experience, I haven't found one yet that has proven - in time - acceptable to the homeowner, and in spite of the number and kind of sealers they put down. So, that tells me that there's something fundamentally wrong with the use of slate, because each of the installations I have witnessed used proper - yet different, albeit similar methods. What I mean by that is that each one was outdoors, each one was a slate, each one was on concrete slab, each one had an antifracture membrane - but each one used one or two different sealers with different exposures, different costs of slate etc. (Personally, I liked the Vermont slate the best).

I've come to the conclusion that the slate was the problem. Spalling, or delamination, and streaking of calcium salts, were the result - and _that_ comes down, IMO, to what slate actually is as a "stone". It's laminated mud that contains a number of different minerals. Note I didn't say any words like calcairous, rock, metamorphic or stone...just "laminated mud"...

Muds originate in water and can revert back to water if prodded. So slate can delaminate, IMO. Some more or sooner than others but that's just the nature of layers of mud piling on top of each other. Add to that the minerals that can react with water and cause further problems and you have a short receipe for disaster. And slate roof tiles? Sure! they're fine up there - but not on a slab!

_So what can I say to you? Here's what: in order to save future grief in your marriage, let your wife know all this so that when it fails, you can say: well, we were warned, weren't we? What that'll do is shift the blame from you to us - and we can take it. :laughing:_​I have always been at my persuasive best when asked to do a slate shower or outdoor installation and fortunately to date my reputation is intact. I've done more than I want to of that type of installation and where I left my signature behind, there is a strongly worded disclaimer, like Bud's I guess.

So, go ahead, do the installation - once you've taken the advice that's posted in this thread, but then add the advice I gave you above. 

You'll thank us all down the road.:huh:


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## Matky

Thank you all for your insight on my project. 

Best Regards,

Mike


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## yesitsconcrete

i don't think slate's bad if its used correctly - just the cheap **** that's being imported, 'specially from india,,, we used slate for yrs beginning in colonial times for headstones - largely because it was easily available & the cutter could use steel tools to shape/carve/engrave it.

mainly in the last 50 yrs its started to delam,,, after all, it is still mud compressed to stone by eons of pressure.

my bride recently informed me she wants granite c-tops,,, yikes !!! most of the stuff avail today's imported junk but its cheap, flashy, & in vogue,,, personally i like slate or soapstone,,, however, she's the 1 who must be obey'd :whistling2:

slate's a 100yr roof & well worth the $$$ but its being challenged by conc tiles today very successfully.


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## ccarlisle

That's my point yesitsconcrete: I have done correct installations but the slate still gave problems. And I agree: the cheap slate they bring in from overseas is just that: cheap slate. I just haven't found a good slate yet, I've seen good slate and bads slate, no great slates. Had I found a great slate I wouldn't hesitate in using it and recommending it. 

And same thing with "granite"...all the stuff they import as basalt becomes granite when it reaches North American shores...there is no classification and thus the opportunities are there to charge high prices for junk. There are only about two dozen stones that have the right to be called 'granite' and you and I may not see any one of those any time soon. But a lot look like granite, feel like granite and behave like granite so I guess it's granite.

Who am I to argue...:whistling2:


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## yesitsconcrete

finding good cheap slate's like finding a good cheap tool :laughing: either with OR without ' legs ',,, pen argyl, vt, & va produce some good mtls but its tough to get what they have to have to cover costs, pay ovhd, & provide a profit,,, here, ga marble's been bought by the french for crushed mtls - ONLY ! ! !

spend 20 yrs in the monument trade so have some ideas what good granite is,,, today's stuff, for the most part, is ****,,, we're on the same page, bud :whistling2:


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## Bud Cline

As long as there's a market for crap people will buy crap, they don't know any better anyway. That Chinese slate shown above is OK for what it was used for. I kind of like the look and to tell you the truth it's easy to work with 'cause there's nothing you can do to make it look any better than it does coming out of the box. 

Is it crooked? 
Damned right it is! 

Will you have lippage? 
Damned right you will! 

Will it delaminate? 
Damned right it will! 

Will I warrant any aspect of the installation? 
Damn right I won't.

I read an article somewhere not too long ago that said Vermont Slate was one of the most reliable consistent slates being quarried anywhere in the world. I think colors are limited tho.


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## yesitsconcrete

i think pen argyl's probably the best for consistency but color's limited to a VERY dark grey/black,,, vt gives up a green, gray, & faded red,,, those tend to remain the same color all thru deposits which's good,,, va's slate's dark grey/black - also consistent.


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## Bud Cline

Is your keyboard missing some keys or what?

Let's see if I got this right.



> i think pen argyl's probably the best


OK, does that have something to do with Pennsylvania?

What is "argyl's"?




> vt gives up a green


....and that has something to do with Vermont?



> va's slate's dark grey/black


Now we're talking about Virginia, is that correct?

Man those posts are hard to read and understand.


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## yesitsconcrete

pen argyl is a town in pennsylvania near where the slate deposit is located,,, vt = vermont ( fair haven's the area if i remember right )  & va's virginia - arvonia or rapidian areas.

apologies for the i-net shorthand :wink:


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## slatechalkboard

My husband and I have dark gray slate chalkboard from an old school. We cut and installed 12x12" tiles in our entry way and I'm was curious about doing the same on our front stoop outside. The area is roughly 4x6' and we live in in the midwest where we get lots of cold weather. So my question is would this be a viable option for over our cement slab entry way with thinset or Mapei adhesive. I read all of the posts and I'm not sure - maybe this slate will be better than the new imported. It's got one side smooth and one side slate textured that was glued to the classroom wall. We like to recycle!

Thanks!
Amy


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## ccarlisle

Well, sure you can!...I don't think anyone has ever said you _can't_ put slate in any place in your home, including bathroom shower stall or kjitchen countertops - it's just that some have seen examples where it was not suitable that makes them suggest something else. In this case, you've recylced a blackboard...well great! saves it from the rubbish heap....

Inside I don't see any problem but outside you may see some problems down the line. But who am I to say "it wasn't worth the cost" or "you paid too much" or whatever. But bear in mind that slate sometimes delaminates under water pressure, so protect the bottom and protect the top and see how long it lasts. It may last beyond the point where you still "like" it and figure it's a time for a change anyways. In that case, you're well ahead of the game! :wink:


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## S. Stansbery

First, I want to thank Bud, Concrete and Carlyle for your comments. I WAS about to put down some (cheap) slate (from Lowe's) and was looking on this forum for a few answers. I will now go to the tile store and maybe get "good" slate, or go ceramic, or whatever you recommend. You guys obviously know your stuff! But, I still have the same the question I started out with, and I hope you guys can help me.

I'm putting down this tile (whatever I end up with) on my covered front porch 5' x 16'. I just spent ALL DAY anlge grinding it to get the 12 layers of paint off it and my back is killing me. The porch is made up of two slabs. So, in the middle I have a gap of about 5/8 inch with an expansion joint that is only half there and the other half has rotted away. (I'm going to try to add a photo).

Question 1 - How do I prepare that gap? Do I fill it with cement and tile over it, or what? Will that work?
Question 2 - Once that gap is prepared, am I ready to lay the tile, or is there some other prep that is required.
Question 3 - Since the porch is covered, and doesnt get much moisture, would the slate be ok?
Question 4 - What "slate looking" alternative would you recommend instead? 

Thanks for any responses!
Steve


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## Bud Cline

> Question 1 - How do I prepare that gap? Do I fill it with cement and tile over it, or what? Will that work?


Under no circumstances do you want to tile over that gap. That expansion joint must be honored all the way through the tiles surface. Clean out the gap and then either fill it with an exterior caulk or some foam backer rod then caulk. The joint must be able to move with climatic changes.

The tile should have a grout joint at that location also. Only, don't use grout in that joint, use a grout-matching exterior caulk there also. The joint must remain flexible. There are also ready-made expansion joints available if you are interested in one of those.



> Question 2 - Once that gap is prepared, am I ready to lay the tile, or is there some other prep that is required.


You could lay tile at that point if your remaining slab isn't showing any cracks. There are also ready-made isolation membranes available if you so choose.



> Question 3 - Since the porch is covered, and doesn't get much moisture, would the slate be ok?


Slate is always iffy out doors in a freeze/thaw climate.



> Question 4 - What "slate looking" alternative would you recommend instead?


There are many porcelain tiles that mimic slate. Look around, most of them are fantastic and some have a "high-relief" that shows strong cleaves.


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## S. Stansbery

Thanks for the reply, and excellent advice! Now, one really stupid question.... the joint for the tiles, sitting above the expansion joint...can the tile joint be 1/4 inch, or does it have to be the 5/8 to mirror the exansion joints width? I know, stupid question...but I'd believe either answer!

Oh yeah, one more question: 

When I lay the vertical tiles, which will be touching the dirt (and therefor subject to lots of moisture, is there anything I should do, other than just laying the tile in?

Thanks again... and especially for the amazingly fast response!


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## Bud Cline

> ...question.... the joint for the tiles, sitting above the expansion joint...can the tile joint be 1/4 inch, or does it have to be the 5/8 to mirror the expansion joints width?


The joint in the tile can be the same as all the other grout joints. I know you don't want that one joint to stand out. You fudge that joint and it won't matter as long as the filler is flexible.



> When I lay the vertical tiles, which will be touching the dirt (and therefor subject to lots of moisture, is there anything I should do, other than just laying the tile in?


No problem there. I'll will tell about a small trick that I do. I backbutter the vertical tiles and I draw the grooves across the tile (top to bottom) so that they are definitely vertical. This way, if moisture should get behind the tile it will have an opportunity to drain. Your objective is to have 100% coverage with the thinset but that doesn't always happen. If the grooves are horizontal or on a funky curve they can trap water and freeze and that can pop a tile.


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## S. Stansbery

WOW. 

Thanks very much for the tips. I'll post a photo when complete.

Thanks again!
Steve


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## stadry

slate doesn't have the strength to hold weight unsupported therefore don't 'hang' it over the edge or it'll chip off,,, when you're all done w/the job, SEAL IT to prevent water from penetrating the grout & eventually building up enough moisture to expand (ice) in lo temps thereby lifting all your very fine work off the substrate :furious: always a bummer to me BUT very profitable repairing it :thumbup: i like mixing some acrylic latex 'milk' into the mortar to 'tighten' up the jnts


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## Bud Cline

SS,

A 3/16" cantilever won't hurt a thing unless that micro-spot takes a direct-hit from something heavy and sharp. Don't worry about maintaining a 1/4" grout joint everywhere, you can do it safely.

Sealing grout DOES NOT waterproof it.

Adding additives to already modified grouts can wreck the chemistry of the product and yield the formula non-functional. Don't add anything to the grout if it is already fortified.


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## stadry

bud & i rarely disagree & this is not the time for that,,, he's right & is advising someone who's not a practicing tradesman,,, i do it differently based on experience in atlanta/augusta.

so THERE, you big bully,,, happy you embarrassed me ? ? ? :laughing:


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## Bud Cline

Sorry! Embarrassing someone wasn't my goal (this time) just wanted to reinforce the facts as I know them.:wink:


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## S. Stansbery

thanks guys. Based on everything I've read and learned from you, I've decided to go with porcelain so that 3/16 in cantilever should be stronger anyway (right?).

Thanks again for all the help. 
Steve


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## stadry

bud, never any offense taken,,, many times i forget there are some who don't do this work for a living :wink: & i forget shortcuts.

stevie, be prepared for chips,,, i'd never cantilever anything so thin especially when it can be frozen & more susceptible to damage - even from shoes 'n' boots.


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## Bud Cline

> Based on everything I've read and learned from you, I've decided to go with porcelain so that 3/16 in cantilever should be stronger anyway (right?).


The porcelain is a better choice and is a lot stronger than the slate for sure. In the past I have cantilevered those type of joints a helluva lot more than 3/16". I wouldn't worry about it if it was mine.


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## S. Stansbery

Hmmmm. Please clarify for me guys. Are you saying the cantilever idea is ok with slate, but not porcelain? I had concluded it was safer with porcelain.... Also, please note this area of the porch is seldom walked upon. In fact almost all of the porch us not walked upon, except for the area in front of the door.

Thanks, 
Steve (not stevie).


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## Bud Cline

And I thought we were On-A-Roll!

Steve, either will work just fine, porcelain is way tuffer than slate.



> Also, please note this area of the porch is seldom walked upon. In fact almost all of the porch us not walked upon, except for the area in front of the door.


Exactly my assumption all along, it's a typical porch.


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## S. Stansbery

Bud, Once again...thanks very much! This is perfect.

Steve


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## Bud Cline

I thought we were well past that point. Did I skip some pages or what?


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## S. Stansbery

*Tile on Porch Project*

Bud, no..you didn't skip anything. Before I ask my last stupid questions, let me say thanks once more. Your advice has been fantastic.

Ok, I'm posting a photo of the porch, with the tiles layed out (somewhat). My questions are:

Question 1- Considering that the porch is not square (why would it be?) at 57 3/4 on one end (the far end) and 57 1/4 on the near end, should I lay my tiles using the format in the photo (from the front edge back to the house - full tile on the front edge with tiles to be cut against the house), or should I lay the tiles "from the house" out to the front edge of the porch (like my dear wife believes I should). My wife's logic is, since you have to make so many cuts around the posts, why not make the the front edge the one with the short tiles and then have all full tiles against the house.

Question 2 - If I do lay the tile from the house out to the edge, and I don't plan to use bull nose, can I sand the corners of the tile to eliminate the sharp edge.

Question 3 - am I just fooling myself by not using bull nose?

Queston 4 (and final) - should I lay the vertical tiles on the face / front of the porch first, or last?

Thanks again!!!!
Steve


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## Bud Cline

I see you are putting a lot of thought into this, that's a good deal.

Here's what I would do.

I would definitely use bullnose. It will do two things for you. It will soften the edge and it will make the cuts around the posts more pleasing because it will help to break up how your eye perceives the overall installation. (Don't know if that makes any sense or not)

I would install the vertical tiles first. This way if the front edge of the porch is slightly off you can fudge the surface tiles (bullnose) just ever so slightly to help to hide any variance while overlapping those vertical tiles. Install the bullnose tiles completely. Then install the field tiles. I would cut to the house, this will hide that variance more or less. 

I would do what had to be done to use full bullnose at the corner (start there) and lay it out dry to be sure there were no slivers that would fall around the posts. IF you have to move laterally to avoid a sliver at a post you can do so without drawing attention to the variance. Don't worry about the bullnose tiles hitting at different places in conjunction with the posts that is going to be unavoidable.

I would also try to position the bullnose so that the bullnose joints are swapped with the field tile joints, in both directions. This will separate the men from the boys I'll tell ya. It may not be totally possible but worth a try.

P.S. I would also till that soil around the porch so that it can be moved and compacted easily with your hands. This way it can be mounded where need it to support the vertical tiles overnight while the thinset dries.


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## S. Stansbery

Man, you are fantastic! Thank you very much. If you are ever in St. Louis, look me up. I'll buy you dinner!

[email protected]


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## Bud Cline

Believe it or not, St. Louis is my home town. Born in Granite City when it was a world renowned steel town. Worked on the original I-270 bridge and the Gateway Arch when they were being built. Been on the old Admiral many times when it was an excursion boat. Used to take a train from Union Station in the days it was a real railroad station before it became a menagerie of shops. Worked on Lion Country at the zoo and went to the old Checkerdome when the St. Louis Blues were kings of the ice. Fished the Mississippi as a kid. Yup, I know a little about the old St. Louis area. White Castles and Steak 'n' Shakes. A-h-h-h-h, but I regress.


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## S. Stansbery

*St. Louis*

Just read your post (as we've been fretting and installing and fretting) for the last three days.

Wow! Those were very significant St. Louis projects. Well, the offer stands...if you make it to St. Louis, send me an advance email. Would gladly take you to dinner (not White Castle....but maybe Steak and Shake ...... since my daughter is a server there).

Thought you might like to see photos of the finished product. Not professional by any means, but we are proud of it for a first time effort. I must admit that I didn't take your advice about the bull nose. The tile we bought did not have any bull nose available and my wife and I could not agree on any sort of "accent" color, stye. 

Nevertheless, we are very happy about how it turned out, and are very grateful for your tremendous guidance.

FYI, I cut under the posts with my angle grinder, and layed the tile underneath the moulding around them. If I was doing it over, I'd probably go the extra mile and replace the moulding (which is was my doing a few years ago and which I would have destroyed getting off since it's on there with nails and liquid nails and quad and every other darn thing I could think of at the time, to ensure moisture would not get to the posts).

Bud, best wishes to you!

[email protected]

Steve.

PS. THANKS AGAIN!


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## stadry

striking appearance,,, keep the pics to compare in 5 or 10yrs,,, st. louis does freeze.


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## Bud Cline

Looks pretty darned good to me.


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## sashaeffer

*More Slate Questions for Bud*

Bud,

GREAT looking slate tile over concrete in that picture. Was that done here in Nebraska?

I too live in Nebraska and want to do something similar on my 20X20 concrete pad. I've been to both HD and Menards asking about either using Slate or natural stone tiles. Frustration set in as I got opposing answers on either type of tile. I was even told I could use Porcelain tile as long as it's "grade" was a 5. I would prefer to use the stone tiles or slate is it looks better.

1. If there are types of slate(as far as where it's from) what do you recomend?

2. Can natural stone tiles be used?

3. I believe you said the quick set morter that Menards sells is the best for our harsh winters to use?

4. What brand/kind of sealer to use when project done, and how often should it be done as a maintenance thing.

Thanks for your help,

Scott Shaeffer
Omaha, NE


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## S. Stansbery

Scott, The tile pictured directly above is porcelain and it's in St. Louis Missouri. Not sure if your referring to those pictures or Bud's pictures of his amazing patio job) . 

Bud and friends were a GREAT help to me on my project. I knew nothing when I started. I elected to go with porcelain, based on some of Bud's and others' posts, but my neighbors have had slate down for 5 years and no problems, except for some minor delamination.

Bud, thanks again for all the advice almost a year ago. You were a great help!

Steve


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## sashaeffer

Steve,

I had been referring to the picture of the patio that was done by Bud, but I didn't realize that your porch tile was Porcelain. It looks great and it also looks like slate. 

Where did you buy the tile?

Scott/Omaha


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## S. Stansbery

Hi Scott, thanks for the kind remarks, although my job looks like a cartoon in comparison to the work of art in Bud's picture. He is an amazing craftsman, obviously.

I purchased my tile at The Tile Store. They were reliable and helpful.

Best Wishes to you with your project. Once complete, please post a photo!

Steve


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## Bud Cline

Yes the patio-slate installation is in Hastings Nebraska.

The customer bought that particular slate from Home Depot and it is the basic inexpesive chinese slate that is everywhere these days. I warned them about using the slate out doors but that's what they wanted to do.

Now, a few years later the patio is holding up fine for the most part. There has been some shedding of wafers as predicted and some iron oxidation (discoloring) coming from within the tile/slate.

My only regret on that job is that I used a high-dollar stone enhancer/sealer that worked much too well. The oxidation is being stimulated from below (my guess) but is also being sealed into the surface of the stone and you can't get to it to clean it without stripping off the sealer.

The customer thinks it's great and loves it, it adds charm, but the rust stains disappoint me.


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## Leah Frances

What a great thread. Kudos to everyone for good advice and cool projects. I'd never tile outside (personal preference) but now I know plenty about it!
:thumbsup:


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## sashaeffer

Bud,

I don't want to even get into China made products, just pisses me off.

How can you tell your getting a better quality tile?

I forgot to ask a really important question though. In my quest to have my patio look better than plain concrete, I've bougth the Rustolium concrete stain/sealer kit. I can't say I can recomend it as it will peel off after a Nebraska winter, but my question is....most of it is still on the concrete with the sealer over the top of it. 

Would I have to remove or do something to improve adheasion of the mastic? I had planned on using that new product that is Orange and comes in a roll. Can't think of the name of it, but it is supposed to act as a vapor barrier as well as a base to secure your tiles on.


Also, what kind of sealer did you use in the Hastings, NE project that you said was good.

Scott/Omaha


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## stadry

Bud, chinese or indian ? personally its striking in appearance but that's just my eye,,, structurally, its all hat & no cattle,,, we've removed much even down her in ga - frost loosens it & it scales horribly,,, BUT - it does look pretty & its eye-catching at the apron store :laughing: in fairness, IF it were sealed annually, the deterioration wouldn't be as severe & we'd have to wait longer for the work :furious:

just because Rustoleum's products didn't work for you doesn't mean they're not suitable for specific uses,,, again, we're back to the apron stores - they just need to sell product,,, far's the product itself, we'd never use it - we need to use pro stuff - stain, dye, or dry hybrid polymer-modified cementitious o'lays. 

Happy Easter - hope everyone finds lots of eggs :thumbup:

ps - our own driveway entrance - just acid stain & aliphatic urethane seal


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## sashaeffer

Yea, it gets back to the "good, better, best" theory. I don't mind spending the extra money, and taking the time for proper prep as long as I can do it myself. I just didn't see any other concrete stain in the store that I could upgrade to.

I'be used their countertop paint for laminate surface and it seems to work and hold up pretty well.

But again, would I have to somehow remove the stain and whats left of the sealer before trying to adhere anything else down?


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## Bud Cline

Installing ceramic tile over any sealed concrete surface IS NOT recommended. The sealer should be mechanically removed by grinding or sandblasting or shot-blasting. The concrete MUST absorb a little water when splashed on the surface. If water beads-up that's no good.

The sealer I used was Impregnator 500 if I remember correctly.

Chinese, Indian, whatever, it was the stuff that is produced for the big box market. A better choice would be Vermont Slate that comes from the good ole U.S. As slates go, Vermont Slate is a more dense stone and not as likely to shed wafers. In addition...you can buy slate in two basic forms. Gauged and ungauged. The gauged would be the better choice as it will be consistent in size (thickness). The ungauged will vary considerably in thickness and would present the worse separation characteristics.

Porcelain tiles would be (in my opinion) the better choice of them all. Porcelain tiles are manufactured to mimic most all natural stones available and because of its very low moisture absorption (.05%) it is suitable for outdoor use in most climates.

Keep in mind any freeze/thaw climate is going to tax an outdoor tile installation.

I would further suggest you use an UNMODIFIED thinset mixed with a compatible additive to create a stronger bond to the substrate. Mapei's KeraBond thinset mixed with Keralastic additive for example.


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## sashaeffer

Bud, as always thank you for your advice.

Scott/Omaha


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## Bud Cline

:thumbsup:


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