# New Member here, I have a concern about new Chimney flashing



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

It should have looked something like this.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...79CE954D36D6E73560832FCFD236C59E41F&first=160

DO you know if they also install step flashing under what your seeing?
I just hate to see a chimmney that close to the peak of a roof, harder to seal it on the high side.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Joe, thanks for the fast reply. I don't think they installed a step flashing under it as I remember seeing the bare chimney as they were installing the flashing.. I checked other homes around the area and noone has roof flashing like this. So am I correct in what you say as well, in that this was totally incorrect?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

In my opion it should have looked someting like this before the other flashing went on.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...82B2AEAD33D66B034E&qpvt=chimney+step+flashing
If you keep an eye on your post I'm sure a few full time roofers will also give you there opion.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks Joe, I have bookmarked the site..


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Totally Wrong, as usual. Check back through my posts I posted a SMACNA Illustration of how this is done.

You need an apron on the bottom, Individual base tins up the side, commonly known as step flashing, and seperate counter flashing. You have to cut into the mortar joint wood block and hammer in the CF, lead wedge it, and seal it.

last of all you need a chimney back or a cricket behind the chimney, depending on size.

That guy you got is not a roofer, he's a shingle butcher.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks Jagan , forgive me if I don't get the terminology correct but I think we are not able to have a chimney back as it is so close to the peak?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

It's called a cricket and yes it could have been done, even if it was done with metal.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks, something to keep in mind when they come to inspect it.. They won't know what hit them!!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I can tell you that its not a new technique type of installation.We have those types of installations here in Missouri.They are the type I like to replace with a proper counter flashing installation.

Give a guy a pair of crimpers,2-1x8"'s (A.k.a "Poor mans brake",a couple tubes of goo and a caulk gun then he thinks he is a metal man.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks Roofmaster, it certainly looked very poor and it has ben bugging me ever since....


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

A few examples of the two separate pieces involved in flashing a chimney. Sorry they are not from the same jobs. 

Flashings are supposed to be interwoven into the roofing system in order to seal up the roof deck. Counterflashing's only job is to cover the bare top of the flashing to prevent airborne moisture from getting in at the top of the flashing. 

Whoever did yours has no clue what he's doing.

Old-school would be lead stepped into the shingles, run up the chimney and cut into the mortar line. I think he was thinking that's what he was doing. Kinda missed the stepping in part though. If there is nothing behind that it is going to mean issues very quickly.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

actually from the looks of the second two pictures it looks like there may be step flashing on the sides. Wouldn't know until you look behind it though.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Im'e not sure... I remember taking a look at the progress and the large metal was being prepped for installation and i could see brick on the chimney right down to the roof..

The wrapping on the shingles also state that the flashing should go on first then the shingles, does this sound correct???


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

Very common style here, surface mount flashing with a 2" kick onto the roof, most idiots nail it down to the roof, right through the shingles. Surface mount is OK, ofcourse cutting it into the brick is superior but it does work. There Is most likely steps underneath. I would bet your in southern Ontario judging by the style?.

Done wrong either style with leak, the drawback to surface mount flashing is the complete reliance on caulk to seal the brick to metal intersection. The face nails in the side are guaranteed future leaks, as well.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

wow that is ugly, incorrect and it leaks. You got yourself a triple jackpot there.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

thanks.........


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

There's a lot of "roofers" around here, that flash chimneys that way -
As pointed out above - sure hope they used step-flashing!


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Well, looking at other houses this afternoon on a drive around the city, we can't see anything like this...?
We haven't had much in the way of rain until this week..


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Don't worry !!
The more you start looking at chimney-flashing -
the more you'll start to see! 
(Ha, ha, ha! - join the club!)


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

The only other flashing I want to admire is the correct on on the house !


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Find somebody that knows what they're doing.
Hey! -
"Roofmaster417" -
why don't you take a quick "road-trip" up north and give this person some guidance!?!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

No it does not work.

The base flashing is nailed to the roof deck in the upper outer corner with two nails through ice dams flashing. The base flashing is NEVER attached to the chimney. The counter flashing which comes down over the base flashing is NEVER attached to the base flashing WHY?

Because when the chimney gets hot it expands in two planes. Up (Tension)
and sideways (Shear). The base flashing under the counter flashing must be free floating to allow this.

Surface mounting to Brick, especially porous brick is as worthless as a tit on a bull. The best counter flashing is that which is set by the mason fully through the mortar joint, and turned up behind the brick. The best material, Arguably, is 20 oz. Lead coated Copper. Cutting into a joint is often the best you can do when a real through brick flashing was not set, which is pretty much the norm in this day of slap it up and run.

*Please, Please, Mister Roof Man! What if my kids go up on the roof and suck on my counter flashing? They will suffer Brain Damage from lead poisoning!!! Dats OK Lady, as soon as day are teenagers, day will be sniffin glue anyway!*

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Joe, since the back of their chimney is at the ridge, they don't need a cricket. AN apron back there will work too. But I Agree if it was down slope.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

"OP" - 
Tear down the chimney and try to find some bricklayers/masons that
know what they're doing with flashing - good luck with that!
(Kidding!)
Find somebody that has a "clue" about flashing roof, penetrations.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

rossfingal said:


> "OP" -
> Tear down the chimney and try to find some bricklayers/masons that
> know what they're doing with flashing - good luck with that!
> (Kidding!)
> Find somebody that has a "clue" about flashing roof, penetrations.


Yeah the first part of that post isn't gonna happen,, actually the chimney itself is in great shape!


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Peter683 said:


> Yeah the first part of that post isn't gonna happen,, actually the chimney itself is in great shape!


That's good! (That the chimney is in good shape!)
Then, find someone who knows how to do flashing -
have them take a look at it.
Myself - I would tear off the counter-flashing and see "exactly", what
was done with the step-flashing -
(If they even put in step-flashing!)
It's a bad sign to look up from the attic and see day-light!
Good luck!

rossfingal

(We await an update!)


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Will keep everyone updated and thanks for the help and advice so far!


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

You're welcome!
Stop back anytime!

"RF"


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

The guy that flashed this did not saw cut your bricks on an angle did he?


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

jagans said:


> The guy that flashed this did not saw cut your bricks on an angle did he?


Don't see no "over-cuts" on the bottom bricks -
so, probably not.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Where's an average "DIY"er, going to get there hands on 20 oz. lead-coated,
copper?!?
Who's going to "form" it to fit?!?
The bricklayers?!?
Sure they will - they all have "Malco" tools!

We ain't here to tell anybody how to do anything - perfect! -
We're here to try and help with problems!


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I know, I know. Im just saying what the best materials are, and the best way to do it. 16 oz. Copper is fine, so is cutting in with a right angle grinder about an inch and a half and lead wedge and sealing your counter flashing. You are of course correct. Its hard to get masons to set flashing properly even on commercial projects let alone residential work.

Aluminum can be and is often used, it just isn't the best IMHO due to its lack of malleability, and the effect mortal has on it. Propely set copper or LCC (Prefered) Counter flashing will last the life of the chimney, and many roofs.

Any decent roofing supply will have 16 oz copper, and 3 lb. lead. and it can be broken with a couple of sharp cornered boards like oak, and some C clamps. Its soft, and malleable. For wedges, you just cut off 1 inch strips of sheet lead and roll it. You need duck billed tongs for any metal work, IMO, and right and left snips. Thats a given.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

I've got a "brake".
However, I admit that I've had to use the boards and C-clamps -
in a pinch!


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Update,
Had a meeting with the roofing company today at the house. They looked over the pictures and info you guys shared and checked the attic. They cant get up to the chimney right now as it is too frosty to climb on the roof. He saw the daylight around the chimney and said it might be clear cauling?? We told him we werent pleased and I said we were advised it was the wrong type of flashing he said if we wanted to go with someone else we could...! He is going to check this afternoon to see if theres anything obvious leaking caulking missed etc. He said it is guaranteed for 10 years I laighed and said it hasnt lasted 3 months! Will see what he finds this afternoon..


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

It is absolutely amazing to me that this guy apparently does this for a living but he does not care to learn the correct way to do it, and tells you to get somebody else, so he can move on to the next unsuspecting victim.

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!

Of all the trades, roofing requires no apprenticeship, or formal education to become a "roofer". This may be why 87% of construction litigation involves the roof. 

"If you've got a pulse, you've got a license"


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

I forgot to mention that there is step flashing underneath that large black cover flashing. You can see the step flashing between the deckboards and chimney in the attic.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Step flashing, or base tins do not go at the deck level, they go between courses of shingles, and redirect water out onto the surface of the roof.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

well that's interesting...


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

And there would be no way to see light through step flashing.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Or at least past the counter flashing. Clear sealant My Arse! :huh::huh::huh:


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

We can't see any daylight through the step flashing only where the flashing meets the chimney itself. Roofer came back and checked the flashing once the frost was gone from the roof for safety and resealed all the flashing.. We went up in the attic with him and he can still see daylight where the flashing meets the chimney.. funny enough we told thm this mornign we werent happy and wanted it removed and redone and once he tried and fialed to seal it he said HE wasnt happy and it is all coming off tomorrow and being redone correctly... wanted to say told you so but thought better of it......


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Reflected daylight can sometimes be seen when looking up the bricks while inside the attic. Direct light isn't good.
And that chimney needs to be flashed. It looks like a kindergartener did it, not a roofer.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Some of the inner details of the chimney flashing. I don't have many 'finished' pix because it's what's underneath that matters for 99% of the project. The counterflashing accounts for the other 1%. These are pix of chimneys without crickets. http://www.albertsroofing.com/Chimney%20Repair.htm


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

God it irks me anytime I hear someone mention caulk in any situation like this. Caulk has nothing to do with a properly flashed chimney. Caulk should only be considered a secondary seal to anything.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Boy are you correct OldNBroken. You cant believe how many projects I have been on where a client had a small leak, then sent bubba up on the roof with a caulk gun and a case of sealant, and then it rained inside. Caulk in weep holes, caulk in the drain holes in storefront window systems, you name it they seal it. Then you have the morons that clear seal brick in cavity wall construction. You go back in the spring and the wall looks like it had acne, the face of the brick is blown out from frost all over the place. Oh well, I should not complain, they make work for me.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi guys, the main roofing company came today and ripped out the incorrect flashing. Apparently they told us that you are supposed to install some form of weather shield membrane on the chimney first and this was not installed when they did it the first time. They installed the membrane and then the new step flashing etc etc. It looks alot better and there is no sign of daylight coming in around the attic. Now we just need some fairly good rain or snow melt to prove it is sealed correctly.. New pics attached.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

Thats Friggin HUGE, very unporportional looking in comaprison to your roof. I am glad they redid it for you, but if that was my chimney i would have stopped them and had them go half that size max.

To me that screams, look at me and how unproportional i am to the home.

Also, can i get an explanation as to why the flashing has to "L" onto the comp shingles. I dont see the point if they also have tin shingled it on each course. The part that comes onto the comp makes it look wierd to me...i think removing the short part of the "L" would look a lot better. Is this an east coast type flashing detail.. snow / ice protection of some sort ?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

" Is this an east coast type flashing detail...menaing snow / ice protection of some sort ?"
It's professionally called 'Jackleg Crap'.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Nothing like 8 tubes of silicone to seal it all up............


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Does anybody else see the three exposed screws or nails on the R. side, and the one on the L. side?


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

tinner666 said:


> Does anybody else see the three exposed screws or nails on the R. side, and the one on the L. side?


Very, very common around here. Its just lazy crap, surface mount is one thing..guys do that so they don't need to fasten it to the chimney itself.
Also looks like the skirt comes out maybe 1-2" onto the roof. Looks like the *counterflashing* extends outward more than the skirt does onto the roof?????Absurd.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

UPDATE**
Your never going to believe this guys.... the freakin roof is leaking again in the same place !!! Mad is an understatement... got a call into insurance and roofing company...


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Peter683 said:


> UPDATE**
> Your never going to believe this guys....


Unfortunately, yes we do. :huh:


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Sorry, but no surprise here. I'm truly sorry.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Don't suppose you have a picture of the backside of the chimney


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Here is the one side of the chimney that is leaking. Not sure what you are referring to as the backside of the chimney?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Well now. Here' my take on the issue based on that last picture;
They probably discovered there were no cripples beside the chimney and the wood was too bouncy for nailing shingles or step flashing. Instead of informing you of the problem and getting into the attic to add cripples, or opening a section of roof to do it from above, they just jerry-rigged everything.
Oh, and that long 8 penny twist nail is the one I pointed out in my earlier post. I wonder waht they thought that extra length was going to do for them? :whistling2:


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Forgive my ignorance but what are cripples? They did mention the soft spot in the roof.. hmm would have thought the roofers would have caught that...


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Cripples are wood blocking. The name may have been incorrect here, but short 'rafters' to connect the blocking in front of the chimney to the ridge board on both sides of the chimney to stiffen the roof AND have something to nail that plywood too. It appears to just be 'floated' over to the chimney and not nailed down. I don't see shingle nails or flashing nails there. The plywood was too bouncy to nail into.

Since they mentioned a soft spot, they knew where and what it was and ignored it. Even though it was an extra and you would have had to pay for it, it couldn't have been avoided. It was necessary for a good job.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

About the time my eyes closed, I figured the correct termonology probably would have been 'jacks' since that's waht we call the short hip and valley rafters that connect to the hip and valley king rafters.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks Tinner...
They are supposed to be comign today to ckeck.. insurance called yesterday and they are not impressed... 
So basically the cripples allow you to nail to then?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

He's trying to say anytime you cut a large hole in a deck it needs to be supported by framing and not just floating in the air like yours. A more common explanation to understand may be windows and doors framed on your house. You know when you see the framing in the walls how the holes for windows and doors are all framed in? They don't just sheet your walls and cut holes in the sheeting to hang them, they are framed in. Picture that only on your roof. It's not a complicated fix but should be fixed.

Still doesn't fix your problem though. What none of use can tell about either contractors work is what it looks like underneath. The counterflashing we can see is only secondary flashing. It's what is hidden that is obviously the problem and apparently neither can do it properly even though it's one of the basic details of roofing. It doesn't help that they both covered up the step flashing underneath with that huge, unnecessary gawd-awful counterflashing. If they just did a normal counterflashing you can see the step flashing without having to tear that mess out.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

Ok I understand what you both are talking about now. Unfortunately there was never any framing around the chimney since it was built which seems strange now that you mention it. That would not have anything to do with the roofing guys though right as they wouldnt be responsble for something like that BUT saying that,two different folks were in the attic and you would think they would have noticed something like that??


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

No, we aren't saying that, just pointing out since we noticed it in your pictures and it's something easily fixed. Frank was pointing out that if they were trying to hand nail in that area it would be very difficult because it just bounces around. Anybody with a skilsaw and screwgun or hammer can easily frame that in.

That counterflashing is keeping us from seeing what your real problem is though.


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## Peter683 (Jan 13, 2013)

So how would you go about installing a frame from inside the attic or would that be impractical?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Peter, you simply need to take it all out and do it correctly. At this point what do you not understand? And how can we help?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Peter683 said:


> So how would you go about installing a frame from inside the attic or would that be impractical?


Since you have access to it, yes it can easily be done inside the attic. you are just fastening 2x4's against the front and back of the chimney attaching them to between the two closest rafters or trusses, snug them up against the roofdeck. Then you put 2x4's against the sides of the chimney and attach those to the two you just installed between the rafters. All it does is gives the roofdeck some structural support around the chimney so the roofdeck is not just flopping in the air. 

As for your leak, you really need to find someone who knows how to properly flash a chimney on a shingle roof.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

OldNBroken said:


> Since you have access to it, yes it can easily be done inside the attic. you are just fastening 2x4's against the front and back of the chimney attaching them to between the two closest rafters or trusses, snug them up against the roofdeck. Then you put 2x4's against the sides of the chimney and attach those to the two you just installed between the rafters. All it does is gives the roofdeck some structural support around the chimney so the roofdeck is not just flopping in the air.
> 
> As for your leak, you really need to find someone who knows how to properly flash a chimney on a shingle roof.


What??????? You should not attach to the chimney. You should frame around it like you would for a skylight. Thats why you dont attach your base flashing to the chimney, only to the roof deck. When the chimney heats up it expands. The deck moves differentially.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

jagans said:


> What??????? You should not attach to the chimney. You should frame around it like you would for a skylight. Thats why you dont attach your base flashing to the chimney, only to the roof deck. When the chimney heats up it expands. The deck moves differentially.


Attach what to the chimney? I never said attach anything to the chimney. It says put them AGAINST the chimney, attach them between the nearest trusses.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Sorry ONB. My eyes are old-N-Broken too.


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