# Roofing practices: hammering down old nails; new felt paper over old; wavyness



## drumbliss (Nov 7, 2012)

I had to have my roof replaced due to damage from a severe (golf-to baseball-size-) hail-storm earlier this year.
I would like professional opinions on roofing practices:

1 - how common is it to put new felt paper of the existing one? I know it prevents proper inspection of the integrity of the decking. Is it that much of a time-saver?

2 - how important is it to hammer down or remove the old nails that are sticking up? In my case the new felt paper was laid down with many nails still sticking up.

3 - what is your opinion on the bulging / wavy-ness of the new felt paper, and on how it was put down, as apparent from the below pictures & video-clip?

Also, look at this video clip: http://youtu.be/kZdU0hBV5DA
Video is about 2 minutes long. If you want to skip ahead, start 50 seconds into it, that's where you get a good look at the new felt paper.
I appreciate your comments, Thank you!
The last picture I included because I'm wondering if it is common to leave a gap as shown. I assume this will not be a problem, just doesn't look great.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Drum.....please read this...let us know if any of it applies to your case.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/super-storm-victims-beware-161769/


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Not one thing in any of those picture is done right.
That roof needed to be stripped not just papered over.
The only gap would be at the very peak and only then if there's going to be a ridge vent. Even that would be only 1-1/2 on each side.
NEVER EVER, IS THERE A GAP LEFT IN A VALLEY!!!
NEVER EVER are NAILS LEFT STICKING OUT!!!! There going to be a leak where every nail is.
If the paper is not flat the shingles will not be flat.
If your paying someone to do this, fire them, do not pay them a dime!


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I am with Joe on this.

Some people think felt should be installed over the roof deck and as long as its present they have done their job and its ready to start banging shingles.WRONG !!!

Roofing is 100% water penetration prevention.TRUE,,but installing felt correctly is vital and here is my opinion why;

1.Preventive maintenance.In the event you have high velocity winds strong enough to remove shingles a properly secured underlayment can limit or sometimes prevent water penetration.Obviously that's a good thing since sometimes in storms with high winds your shingles are blown blocks away or somewhere out of your sight.And believe it or not I have seen them on a neighbors roof.

1b.Your felt is not properly fastened.In the event your shingles were blown off your felt has a high probability to go further than your shingles.No felt equals major water penetration and severe interior damage.Your underlayment does not contain ehough fasteners.Now don't be mislead by my comment because felt is not made for water prevention.Its not like Moisture Guard /Ice and Water Shield or comparable to synthetic underlayments.

1b.A flat and tight rolled underlayment assists in a more appealing and level roof system installation.

2b.Your felt is uneven and bubbled.That will cause an uneven visual of your roof.A flat and tight underlayment will also assist in the sealing process of your roof system.It also assists with the seated fastener used to fasten the shingle to the roof deck.Also bubbled underlayment could cause the shingle to be contorted along the exposure area of the shingle creating an area that's lifted allowing the shingle to be to susceptible to blow offs.

3.In every shingle manufacture recommendations and guidelines for a proper installation is a "Suitable Roof Surface".A "Suitable Roof Surface" means an unobstructed nailable surface as well as free of delaminated,rot and debris.

3b.If your underlayment was installed over debris (e.g high nails,shingle particles,mud,fasteners of any kind,high nails,tar,sealant,license plates,coffee cans or other "Debris") then your roof deck is "Unsuitable" for underlaymemt installation and MORE importantly roofing material installation of ANY kind.

3c.When roofing material is installed/Applied over debris it also creates lifted or bubbled areas.Not only is it visually noticed but the roofing material itself can become damaged by the debris.A structure that contains a roof structure and assembly is a structure in motion.In other words the roof structure/assembly moves.If the underlayment contains debris overtime it could rub a hole in the underlayment thus rubbing a hole in the roofing material exposing the system to the elements.Obviously creating roof failure resulting in interior damage.

4c.Installing roofing material over debris voids manufacture warranty against roof failure due to improper installation.It won't void the entire roof but in that area in the event you try to pursue the manufacture for a defect.

Leaving the felt versus tearing it off has created a debate on about every home improvement site on the internet.Myself I tear it off.I feel that if your paying for a new roof by tear off then IMO your paying me to tear the ENTIRE roof off.Also the felt on tje dormer is ran vertical.In the event of blow offs water can penetrate more quickly on a vertical lap versus a parallel with the gutter line installation.

Nothing I have seen in your pix leads me to believe your installation is anything
I myself would be happy about.But that's just me.I apologize for the long winded comments I am so notorious for.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Paper is also over lapped wrong in several places.
The lower edge of the roof looks like there's plywood missing out near the are where the two roof lines come together causing a low spot where waters going to pool up.
Paper is not run all the way to the edge of the roof.
No Storm and ice ran on lower edges of roof.
No storm and Ice in the valleys.
Shingles to close to the hips and valleys.
New shingles are even run completey wrong.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Also I am curious as to why the shingles on the hip right on the gutter line is pointed up towards the moon ?,,A couple tabs are also creased and hopefully the tabs containing button caps will be replaced if the ridge cap don't cover them.Also kinda curious why the bond lines are so wide on that run with different shading ? And lets hope that 3" or 4" pipe flashing will be replaced and not reused.

Also if you look 6 courses up on the picture with the different shading that tab/shingle should be replaced.


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## drumbliss (Nov 7, 2012)

Thank you for your replies!



Roofmaster417 said:


> Also I am curious as to why the shingles on the hip right on the gutter line is pointed up towards the moon ?


Not sure why it was sticking up like that at the time. The finished roof does not do this. I will add a few pics of the final state.


*ddawg16*:
This was the first time I submitted a claim. This is a summary of the experience:

The contractor came recommended by a friend who owns multiple houses and this is his roofer. The claim check was made out to me & my bank for $6000. 
The roofer told me he will do everything to stay "within the deductible", meaning - I assume - that his quote will be within the amount of the check I got. He told me to give him a copy of the claim, he then produced a quote for the same amount, I accepted. It was less detailed in the specifics than the claim report. He told me to deposit my check with my bank and let him know when it cleared. When it did, he asked for "materials" payment of 4,500.-

When the job was started:
His crew showed up quite late and looked tired and exhausted, like they've already been working on a roof that day (July in Texas is brutally hot as well). When I saw they were getting ready to roll the new paper over the old, I called him to ask about this, as his quote included "remove and replace roof systems on house" and I had assumed this would include stripping the old felt paper. He said of papering over the old layer: "Yes, that is how we do it. It will give you an extra layer of protection."

I should also mention that after the initial meeting with him, he never came by during the job, or after, to inspect the work.
Is that common?? 
He seemed like he over-extended himself after this big storm hit the city, and the crew working on my roof may even have been a new (inexperienced) hire, but that is only a guess on my part.

He is now asking for the rest of his money ($1500.-) and I am wondering what to do exactly. The finished roof looks good (might post some pictures later). But obviously the quality of workmanship leaves much to be desired.

What would be the proper way to move forward from here? 
Do I offer to pay less?
If the roof is working, and I leave it like it is, should I renegotiate what I owe him. At this point he has received 3/4 of the money.

Thank you.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Gee I bet you wish you had of gotten a permit and got it inspected now.
Your between a rock and a hard place.
I know for a fact If I have of seen half the stuff they were doing I would sent them packing.
He should have been on the job at least long enough to make sure everyone had what they needed, had full instrutions. And came back and checked up on them during the day, and damm sure have gone on the roof once I was told it was done and inspected it. Before I even talked to the customer.

Has this guy even see the pictures you posted?
I'd be having a little powow with him, show him the vidio, show him the pictures, and also back that up with the install instrutions from the manufacture.
I would not pay him a dime after allowing that kind of work to be done to your home.
It was his responablity to make sure it was right not yours.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

There are so many problems with this roof don't even know were to start...

Up here in Minnesota we use ice and water shield minumal 5.5ft on all eaves and 3ft in valleys and around penetrations. To see pics of a roof with just felt makes me look twice.


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## dougger222 (Feb 25, 2011)

BTW,
I like those shoes!


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

you put in quotes

"remove and replace roof systems on house" 

If thats the case he breeched. Either way, it is terrible on so many levels as already indicated by the other posters.

"Do you offer to pay less?"

No, you pay what you agreed to pay however...if your contract with him says remove and replace the roof system then he is obligated to tear off the old roof before installing the new paper. If he is unwilling to tear off all his work and the original roof and start over on his dime FIRE him.

Get it done from someone else who is local and established. I do not ever do insurance jobs, we do not get much rain in So Cal. 

Last but not least, kick that friend of yours square in the balls.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Just out of curiosity how did you come to know this guy and company and how much research did you do prior to hiring him ?

And also curious if you got multiple estimates,,,,how much cheaper was he than the rest of the estimates you receieved ?


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## drumbliss (Nov 7, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Just out of curiosity how did you come to know this guy and company and how much research did you do prior to hiring him ?
> 
> And also curious if you got multiple estimates,,,,how much cheaper was he than the rest of the estimates you receieved ?


He came recommended. I did some quick online research. He has a "angie's list super service award 2011" stamp on his invoices, as well as being accredited with the BBB.

It is not in my nature to just take someone's recommendation for a contractor, and I definitely like to get more than one detailed bid before I make a commitment. Instead, I followed my gut on this one, skipped out on additional estimates, and got burnt it seems.

As soon as it was raining golf- and baseballs, roofers descended on the city. You'd think every other person out there had a roofing business, it was crazy. And there was more than enough work to go around, basically everyone needed a new roof. 

But yes, I admit my big mistake was to not get multiple quotes and do more in-depth research. Lesson learned. However, let's say I had checked on Angies List, which apparently he has a stellar record with, how would I have had a clue what was in store? I did not see any red flags. :-/


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## drumbliss (Nov 7, 2012)

Roofmaster417 said:


> ...Also kinda curious why the bond lines are so wide on that run with different shading ?


 (last picture)
Yes, I was hoping someone here might have a suggestion why they did that. Puzzles me too.



> And lets hope that 3" or 4" pipe flashing will be replaced and not reused.


Yes, it was replaced.



> Also if you look 6 courses up on the picture with the different shading that tab/shingle should be replaced.


That was not replaced.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Here's what I think happened (I could be completly wrong on this) there was so much work and just not enough workers to do the job. The guy did not want to pass on this windfall so he hired who ever came along and said they were roofers. His big mistake was to not be on at least one job to see if they really knew what they were doing.

That Angie's list is a useless money making joke.
When work got slow around here I tryed working for someone that was A rated on Angies List.
Based souly on Angies rating a customer near me but 1-1/2 hours from where this guy worked out of hired him to to do about $100,000 job on a 100 plus year old house.
First day I show up we had no materials and no tools to work with.
He had his so called lead man there to tell me what needed to be done, problum was no one told him what to do.
Everyday he would walk around for two hours before doing anything just looking at things.
We made up a materials list for some of the things needing to be done. Instead or ordering the materails from the local lumber yard exactly 1 mile away he had then come from 1-1/2 away so we lost another day waiting.
When they did get there the whole order was wrong. For a 1000 ft. of picket fencing that need to go up he ordered 1, bag of concrete and 50, 4 X 4's.
We had no post hole digger, no nail guns or nails.
To build out the windows and doors for siding he sent primed pine finger jointed white pine.
We had to side the whole 2 story house, all he sent was 2, 6' step ladders.
He never got a permit for any of the work.
A year later and the job is still not even close to being done.
I quit at the end of the week, when i got my paycheck in the mail he had shorted me $8.00 an hours. He said nothing got done while I was there so he made no money.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Drum.....please read this thread by roofmaster.....I believe that if you had read it prior to this...you would not be in this situation...

http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/super-storm-victims-beware-161769/

Just to give you a realtive benchmark....I'm getting the roof on my house as I write this.....two parts actually....about 1000 sq' on the new addition...about 75 sq' of torchdown....and repair the sections I tore apart to modify the roof line to match up with the house. All permited...licensed contractor....total price $3500....including material. The guys even clean up when they are done......

I think you got hosed.....do NOT give him the remaining money....

At this point I would suggest you follow the advice of joecaption and roofmaster....


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

ddawg16 said:


> Just to give you a realtive benchmark....I'm getting the roof on my house as I write this.....two parts actually....about 1000 sq' on the new addition...about 75 sq' of torchdown....and repair the sections I tore apart to modify the roof line to match up with the house. All permited...licensed contractor....total price $3500....including material. The guys even clean up when they are done......
> 
> I think you got hosed.....do NOT give him the remaining money....
> 
> At this point I would suggest you follow the advice of joecaption and roofmaster....


Yikes I think your roofing contractor hosed himself.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Not trying to make the OP feel bad....but the roofer finished my house....this is what it looked like....




























Yep....$3500 total....including materials.....


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

ddawg16 said:


> Not trying to make the OP feel bad....but the roofer finished my house....this is what it looked like....
> 
> Yep....$3500 total....including materials.....


Looks good. That guy must've been hurting for work. 

Is that a polyurethane boot around that cast iron pipe?


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

ParagonEx said:


> Looks good. That guy must've been hurting for work.
> 
> Is that a polyurethane boot around that cast iron pipe?


The pipe is ABS.......and the flashing is the rubber boot....he added some sealant around it....

He left that one...but replaced my other ones with metal only flashings....he thinks the rubber is ok...but, prefers the metal ones for longer life.


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