# Wiring for swimming pool



## jomay (May 26, 2011)

I'm planning to install an above ground pool and one of my concerns now is the electrical for the filter. The requirement is 20a120v (with twistlock plug). I looked at my existing panel box, and it seems full (see attached). I've read about using tandem breaker (gfci rated), would that work? How would I find out the right size that will fit my box?

Also, I have an existing outdoor outlet in the back - which is alao gfi rated. I'm thinking to just convert it to a junction box (with an outdoor outlet - in case I will need it for electrical power tools or appliances), and then extend it closer to the pool via approved pvc for underground installation. Will that pass in the inspection?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

The NEC has all the info in it you need, along with your local city hall as to what is required for your area. Appliances for pools also have in the manuals the section and info for that section from the NEC printed in them.


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## Techy (Mar 16, 2011)

You appear to have 2 full size (1" spaces available at the bottom of your panel, you need a GE THQL1120GFP (20A 1P GFCI Circuit Breaker)


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

I think that there's also other NEC requirements for pools. For instance, I think all electrical devices must be farther than 5' from the pool. There can be no overhead wires, and I believe we need a disconnect within 5'.

Hopefully others will correct me if Ii'm wrong.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

sirsparksalot said:


> I think that there's also other NEC requirements for pools. For instance, I think all electrical devices must be farther than 5' from the pool. There can be no overhead wires, and I believe we need a disconnect within 5'.
> 
> Hopefully others will correct me if Ii'm wrong.



You are absolutely correct. The OP should study article/section 680 in the NEC before installing anything. There are many rules for pools and you must get it right the first time. This is truly a matter of life and death.

You can read the NEC for free on the Internet. :thumbsup:


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

J. V. said:


> You can read the NEC for free on the Internet. :thumbsup:


The only thing I've found free on the internet is a Draft of the 2008, and I'm not sure if it is the final version.

J.V. do you have a link to a free final copy?


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

I always find mine by searching for "michigan electrical code" and it can be found in that manner at this link:

www.archive.org/details/​gov.mi.electrical

I don't think MI has any particular amendments, although the link might still have 2005.

I put in our pool 2 houses ago and it's a distant memory, but I put it on a dedicated circuit, put a switch to shut it off at the post I mounted the GFCI outlet on, direct wired the pump off the load side of the gfci.

I used the outlet for a pool light, which plugged in and I had a place on the post to hang the transformer, from which it ran low voltage for the actual bulb. 

I'm sure you'd probably have the added requirement from 2008 to use a weatherproof gfci. It will have a WR on the face.

And yep, MI still has 2005 published even though 2008 is in effect here, so be sure to look for a 2008 or a supplement your 2005 reading with a reading of the updates in 2008.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

2011 is supposed to be out by July for the McGraw Hill version for the iPhone, due to late revisions


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

We're still on the 2005 here, but I use the 2008.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

I think that we finally made the 2008 here in my area. I have both the 2005 & the 2008, but go by the latest when working on my house. Better to do it up to the latest code and make sure that the local is okay, then get in trouble adopting a newer code than they want.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

thanks guys for your inputs. i'll probably be wiring the pool in the next few wks. i'd have to gather tools and materials first - and the permit. the estimate i had to get it thru electricoan is 1k, and i felt thats a little too much considering he'll just pop-in new breakers.

our permit is still based on 2006 ibc NJ. 18" underground via sched 40 pvc, filter has to be at least 5' away, other sockets must be at least 10' away from pool.

one thing i dont get right now, is the term bonding... any of you guys care to explain? my thoughts are just hooking up the ground wire from filter to the body of the pool, but i mit be mistaken...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Bonding is like handshaking, hugging your buddy. Basically it is a piece of wire as specified in either the manual of the equipment, or the rules by your AHJ at a certain awg to connect between the equipment and a ground. Keep in mind how close your neighbors are, and if you have a HOA, because they can cause your pool to become more of a headache, especially those neighbors that think they are instantly invited all the time to use it.

Also, check to make sure if you need an alarm on the gate & back door, which is usually mandated in insurance policy. With wifi cams being cheap now days, I would get one and set it up to alert you if any activity, especially with the iPhone, there is a app called iCam, which works with multiple cameras. Good luck and let us know how things go.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Techy said:


> You appear to have 2 full size (1" spaces available at the bottom of your panel, you need a GE THQL1120GFP (20A 1P GFCI Circuit Breaker)


is there a 20a tandem breaker for ge?


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Bonding is like handshaking, hugging your buddy. Basically it is a piece of wire as specified in either the manual of the equipment, or the rules by your AHJ at a certain awg to connect between the equipment and a ground. Keep in mind how close your neighbors are, and if you have a HOA, because they can cause your pool to become more of a headache, especially those neighbors that think they are instantly invited all the time to use it.
> 
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> is it true that i need 8' grounding/bonding rod for the pool, filter or lights?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Nope.,

If you read the NEC code art 680 this is covered very well but be aware there is early verison and later verison { 2005 or before is early while 2008 and later is later verison } 

Plus the local/ state code may add to this so review it and talk to the inspector they will recomend few items along the way.

Merci.
Marc


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

In NJ certain areas have there own requirements. Where in NJ are you located, If you wish you can pm me for any questions.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

jomay said:


> the estimate i had to get it thru electricoan is 1k, and i felt thats a little too much considering he'll just pop-in new breakers.


I think you are downplaying the significance and scope of this job to justify your unwillingness to pay a professional to do the job right. 
If you are able to learn how to do this job with no mistakes or future problems that is fine, but do not belittle the role of someone who knows what they are doing.





jomay said:


> is it true that i need 8' grounding/bonding rod for the pool, filter or lights?


Not now, not ever. 
Folks who sink ground rods for pools don't know what they are doing.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

NJMarine said:


> In NJ certain areas have there own requirements. Where in NJ are you located, If you wish you can pm me for any questions.


So how does this help the rest of the board to learn?


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

In some areas wiring to above ground pool has to in in conduit from panel to pool outlet, while other areas will allow romex from panel to outside wall of house and than conduit to pool outlet.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

NJMarine said:


> In some areas wiring to above ground pool has to in in conduit from panel to pool outlet, while other areas will allow romex from panel to outside wall of house and than conduit to pool outlet.


And unfortunately in some areas inspectors make things up, while others will actually provide substantiation for their requests.

Honestly, this is one amendment I have not heard much of. Most places that I have seen/heard are in line with the NEC on this, excepting Chicago of course. :laughing:

As usual, it is best to check with your local AHJ.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

NJMarine said:


> In some areas wiring to above ground pool has to in in conduit from panel to pool outlet, while other areas will allow romex from panel to outside wall of house and than conduit to pool outlet.


In my area, they follow the NEC for 2008 now. That means a GFCI within six feet. Since my pool pretty much gets set up within four feet of the edge of our garage, the whole assembly is a Intex Quick Set pool, so no overkill.

Only draw is that the overhead POCO lines need to be 20 feet off from the ground, and lockable gate and same for back door. Pretty simplified, no over kill. If I had to go with a steel wall above, yes I would make changes, but following the NEC guidelines, again no need to overkill it.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> I think you are downplaying the significance and scope of this job to justify your unwillingness to pay a professional to do the job right.
> If you are able to learn how to do this job with no mistakes or future problems that is fine, but do not belittle the role of someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> Not now, not ever.
> Folks who sink ground rods for pools don't know what they are doing.


I did not intend to "belittle the role of the professional"... I just thought it was too much (for myself). After researching further, the 1k seems to be reasonable bec of other work involved - trenching and burying ground rod for bonding... I just got confused with your comment about grounding rod... Am I really talking to an electrician who quoted me for 1k including bonding?


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> In some areas wiring to above ground pool has to in in conduit from panel to pool outlet, while other areas will allow romex from panel to outside wall of house and than conduit to pool outlet.


Thanks. I decided to use gfi for both my breaker and outlet... I think extra $40 for the outlet is easy to recover over 3 years. I'm doing romex from panel thru the crawlspace then conduit (sched 40 PVC) from outside to the pool filter (5' away from pool). I'm also doing the same for extra outlets but it's 10' away from pool.


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

jomay said:


> I'm doing romex from panel thru the crawlspace then conduit (sched 40 PVC) from outside to the pool filter (5' away from pool). I'm also doing the same for extra outlets but it's 10' away from pool.


You cannot use NM-B underground or outside. You need to make sure the cable is UF.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

sirsparksalot said:


> You cannot use NM-B underground or outside. You need to make sure the cable is UF.


Wished they told the idiot that did that with my garage, before I ran #10 UF from the house to the garage. My wife looked at me when I pulled it up out of the ground, and just walked back inside, because she knew I was pissed once I figured out why no power to the garage.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> In my area, they follow the NEC for 2008 now. That means a GFCI within six feet. Since my pool pretty much gets set up within four feet of the edge of our garage, the whole assembly is a Intex Quick Set pool, so no overkill.
> 
> Only draw is that the overhead POCO lines need to be 20 feet off from the ground, and lockable gate and same for back door. Pretty simplified, no over kill. If I had to go with a steel wall above, yes I would make changes, but following the NEC guidelines, again no need to overkill it.


Pools have more than NEC requirements, there are lots of offset requirements - so things like drunk guys climbing on a roof so they can jump to their death trying to dive don't happen. It's been 8 years since I put in my pool and mine was way back from the house, but I remember I was pretty much as close to my fence as I was allowed and I think it was more like 6'.

To put the $1000 in context, consider my current project of a garage feeder and service upgrade... Way heavier duty stuff involved and that's a lot of the expense (panel, socket, rigid conduit, heavier gage wire - although mine is aluminum so cost per for isn't actually that far off)

My materials came to about $1000... before the inspector failed me, and I had to spend another $250. Plus the rental of 2 teenagers to dig my 30' trench for $80 (which is cheaper than the walk behind trencher at $125)

This can easily be a $500 DIY project. Especially if you have any rework resulting from inspection.

Somebody will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but you can pull THHN and it will most likely work out cheaper than the UF.

And definitely use schedule 80 PVC conduit where you come up out of the ground. When we had a pool and the electric came up and was mounted on a post, that was an area I had to use a weed whacker.


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

WillK said:


> Somebody will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but you can pull THHN and it will most likely work out cheaper than the UF.


Do you mean TH*W*N?


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

EDIT: I guess some is dual rated THHN/THWN, but I'd suggest being careful to determine that.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Willk, drunk guys/gals jumping off the roof, etc is mandated by insurance, anything else not covered by that or NEC usually falls under HOA crap. Everything needed to know about pools, decks, etc is pretty much laid out on the city website, and some have guidelines in books that homeowners can download to put them on the right track.

As for failing inspection, yes each process means possibly having the inspector come back at each time, but in all reality, they are there to protect the homeowner from the liability of doing it wrong, in the event that something happens, so the homeowner does not come back and go "I didn't know."


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

Since the OP is from NJ, here is a sample guidline from a NJ Town.
It does have about the equipotential bonding, which also is required.
If you already have a gfi outlet that is 10-20 feet away from pool edge than that can be the convience outlet. 

*Sample guidelines for electrical requirements for Swimming Pools*
01. No direct burial cable permitted underground. Conduit system is required. 680.21
02. Minimum attachment cord size # 12 AWG. 680-21
03. Minimum ground wire size # 12 AWG. 680.21
04. 20 Ampere Locking type outlet required for filter motor for above ground pools located between 5’ and 10’ from
pool wall. This outlet shall be Ground Fault Protected and shall employ a “In-Use” cover. This circuit shall be
dedicated to the Filter Motor. 680.22
05. Convenience outlet shall be located between 10’ and 20’ from pool wall, shall be Ground Fault Protected and
shall be connected to a routine circuit in the dwelling. This outlet may be protected with a “in- use”
weatherproof cover. 680.22
06. All metal parts within 5’ of the pool shall be bonded together with #8 solid wire and shall be bonded to filter
motor. 680.26
07. Filter motor may be “hard wired” but disconnecting means is required.
08. Burial depth is routinely 18” for PVC and 6” for Rigid metal conduit. 680.10
09. Any approved wiring method within the dwelling is approved within the dwelling unless a pool light is involved.
If a pool light is installed, a conduit system is required to the service panel board and a green insulated ground
is required to be installed. 680.21
10. All wiring installed in a conduit system must either be Ground Fault or not. Do not intermix these two types of wiring protection
11. A # 8 Solid Green wire is required to be installed between the pool chassis and a lug provided on the filter
motor. A proper lug is required on the pool chassis. 680.26​
12. A time clock must be installed so the pump can be set to run at off hours as per the Model Energy Code


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> Since the OP is from NJ, here is a sample guidline from a NJ Town.
> It does have about the equipotential bonding, which also is required.
> If you already have a gfi outlet that is 10-20 feet away from pool edge than that can be the convience outlet.
> 
> ...


 This is almost the exact guidelines I'm following for Beachwood, NJ. I didn't see the option of 6" trench for rigid metal conduit though, so I'll be doing the 18" for shed 40 PVC.

Re: ground rod for bonding, can I bury it close to my house (about 25' away from pool) while I run the #8 solid wire via the trench (outside the PVC)? I don't think I have to run it on separate conduit, right?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I believe you have been told a couple of times you do not need a ground rod nor will it do anything for your install. Why do you keep asking about a ground rod?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

jomay said:


> Re: ground rod for bonding, can I bury it close to my house (about 25' away from pool) while I run the #8 solid wire via the trench (outside the PVC)? I don't think I have to run it on separate conduit, right?


I am curious to see what other answers you get on this. 
You are obviously looking for someone to tell you you need one. WHY I have NO idea. :icon_rolleyes:


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

You need a ground rod because the others have told you not to install one. Damn Them!! :jester:


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

I am in Middletown/Red Bank and the surrounding towns use similar guidlines.
I do not know why you insist on aground rod.
I am not far from you so you want more information or guidance, you can contact me.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> I am in Middletown/Red Bank and the surrounding towns use similar guidlines.
> I do not know why you insist on aground rod.
> I am not far from you so you want more information or guidance, you can contact me.


I'm a bit confused.. as you can all tell.  i dont insist having ground rod, but i just assumed that when i need to bond the pool and the filter, i will need to hook them up to a ground rod... if my assumption is incorrect can you provide additional info? Whats your number?


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> I believe you have been told a couple of times you do not need a ground rod nor will it do anything for your install. Why do you keep asking about a ground rod?


I'm a bit confused.. as you can all tell.  i dont insist having ground rod, but i just assumed that when i need to bond the pool and the filter, i will need to hook them up to a ground rod... did i miss any instructions?


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

I still find the term bonding a bit confusing too. 

Let me tell you what I did when I wired my pool that was passed on inspection. I had a length of bare copper wire that started in a wirenut where a pigtail for the GFCI outlet connected to the bare copper wire from the UF cable. This bare copper wire looped around a ground screw that installed into the frame of the pump motor - your pool pump installation manual should tell you how to do this as well. The copper wire continued on to connect to one of the metal posts of the pool frame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's not the filter that needs to be bonded, it's the pump... 

By the way, when I wired my pump, I actually did a conduit run from my post where I had mounted the GFCI outlet and hard wired the pump to an outdoor switch on the post. I didn't want to be dealing with a loose cord when I was using a lawnmower or weed whacker. Dunno if I'd do that again, but my yard is too small for me to have the possibility of facing such questions with a pool.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

WillK said:


> I still find the term bonding a bit confusing too.
> 
> Let me tell you what I did when I wired my pool that was passed on inspection. I had a length of bare copper wire that started in a wirenut where a pigtail for the GFCI outlet connected to the bare copper wire from the UF cable. This bare copper wire looped around a ground screw that installed into the frame of the pump motor - your pool pump installation manual should tell you how to do this as well. The copper wire continued on to connect to one of the metal posts of the pool frame.
> 
> ...


I thought grounding is different from bonding...

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/grounding-vs-bonding-22324/

My understanding was, the filter is grounded using your bare wire from the panel.... The pool, pump, or any metal within certain distance to the pool must be bonded to a ground such that anything like lightning can safely pass thru it. Did i mis something?


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

jomay said:


> I'm a bit confused.. as you can all tell.  i dont insist having ground rod, but i just assumed that when i need to bond the pool and the filter, i will need to hook them up to a ground rod... did i miss any instructions?


Grounding and bonding are completely different things, although they often happen at the same time through the same wires and connections.

Bonding is exactly what the name implies: connecting things together with wires. Bonding ensures that all exposed metal things stay at the same voltage (after all, if they are connected to each other with wires, they must be at the same voltage), and that the voltage is "zero" - the system neutral voltage. The purpose is to ensure that you can't touch something and get shocked by it. The bonding includes a connection to the system neutral (through the system bonding jumper back in the main panel). The purpose of this is to make sure that if a hot wire ever touches something that is bonded, there is a direct short circuit and the circuit breaker blows instantly. Without this bonding connection to the system neutral, a hot wire could touch metal things (like the frame of your pool pump, or the housing of the underwater light) and electrify them, and you would never find out until you learned it the hard way. Bonding is therefore extremely important for safety - it is the primary means that our electrical systems have to prevent shocks.

Grounding is also exactly what the name implies: connecting something to a ground rod (or other grounding electrode). Only the system as a whole is connected to grounding electrodes, not individual pieces of equipment. Why? Well, grounding serves only one fairly limited purpose: stabilizing the system voltage relative to ground. Grounding ensures that the "neutral" conductor and all of the grounded/bonded equipment on the system is at approximately the same voltage as the earth. Grounding electrodes have fairly high resistance - usually on the order of tens or hundreds of ohms. Thus, grounding alone is useless to prevent shocks or trip breakers in case of ground faults. You can connect a hot wire directly to a ground rod and it will only draw a few amps, and never trip the breaker.

That's the difference between grounding and bonding. As you can see, bonding is the part you need to be concerned about when building a pool - you need to make sure that all metal surfaces and equipment are at the same voltage, and that any ground faults will instantly trip the circuit breaker. That's what bonding is about. You already have a grounding electrode (or two) on the system, so adding another one would be useless. Even more to the point, the rebar in the pool concrete is a far better grounding electrode than a ground rod anyway - burying another 8 feet of steel rod would not be helpful.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

pool water also has to be bonded. This is one company that has a bonding parts. www.WaterBonder.com


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

Jomay
Do you see that a ground rod is not needed.


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

...........


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## sirsparksalot (Oct 16, 2010)

.......................


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

..........


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

Jomay
You still seem confused about grounding and bonding. You aked for my number. I had posted but removed it. Here it is again 732-741-0011. I am not far from you and will answers any questions you may have about this pool.
You can call me at 732-74


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Tigerloose said:


> As to getting a job in code enforcement, building inspectors take umbrage at being called code enforcement; code enforcement takes care of trash, junk and debris. I take care of everything else.


You're joking, right? 
Most AHJ's I know take (almost too much) pride in being called "code enforcement officers". 

"_*code* enforcement takes care of trash, junk and debris_"??? On what planet is this true?


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> Jomay
> You still seem confused about grounding and bonding. You aked for my number. I had posted but removed it. Here it is again 732-741-0011. I am not far from you and will answers any questions you may have about this pool.
> You can call me at 732-74


Thanks. I will give you a call tomorrow - 6/5/11 - around 2p?


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

NJMarine said:


> In some areas wiring to above ground pool has to in in conduit from panel to pool outlet, while other areas will allow romex from panel to outside wall of house and than conduit to pool outlet.


Not in Jew Jersey! All electrical work shall comply with the UCC and the 2008 NEC. Period!

As for the OP. I recently read an article somewhere where a mother and widow told of her husband not wanting to pay a professional electrician to wire their pool. Her husband died in the pool as a result of his unsafe wiring. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL!!!!


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

electures said:


> Not in Jew Jersey! All electrical work shall comply with the UCC and the 2008 NEC. Period!


Yes, and for a one family dwelling the NEC allows the use of any Chapter 3 wiring method for the inside portion of wiring to a pool motor. :whistling2:

See NEC 680.21


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> this is almost the exact guidelines i'm following for beachwood, nj. I didn't see the option of 6" trench for rigid metal conduit though, so i'll be doing the 18" for shed 40 pvc.
> 
> Re:* ground rod for bonding*, can i bury it close to my house (about 25' away from pool) while i run the #8 solid wire via the trench (outside the pvc)? I don't think i have to run it on separate conduit, right?


do not install a ground rod!!


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yes, and for a one family dwelling the NEC allows the use of any Chapter 3 wiring method for the inside portion of wiring to a pool motor. :whistling2:
> 
> See NEC 680.21


What I meant was it does not vary from town to town. We all follow the 2008 NEC and the UCC. That is why it is called *the Uniform Construction Code.*


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

electures said:


> What I meant was it does not vary from town to town. We all follow the 2008 NEC and the UCC. That is why it is called *the Uniform Construction Code.*


Ahhhh. :thumbsup:


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yes, and for a one family dwelling the NEC allows the use of any Chapter 3 wiring method for the inside portion of wiring to a pool motor. :whistling2:
> 
> See NEC 680.21


Should we tell him if he uses a 25A breaker it does not have to be GFI?


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

electures said:


> What I meant was it does not vary from town to town. We all follow the 2008 NEC and the UCC. That is why it is called *the Uniform Construction Code.*


I agree that everyone should follow the UCC and 2008 code, but I have done above ground pools where the area requires Conduit and and insulated ground from panel to pool pump. The reason someone might istall a pool light later. I do not fight with the inspector ,price the job based on this requirement in that area, but I do bring it up with other inspectors at classes.
Jomay waiting for call.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

NJMarine said:


> I agree that everyone should follow the UCC and 2008 code, but I have done above ground pools where the area requires Conduit and and insulated ground from panel to pool pump. The reason someone might istall a pool light later. I do not fight with the inspector ,price the job based on this requirement in that area, but I do bring it up with other inspectors at classes.


Sounds like you have a rogue inspector that likes to make up his own rules. 
They CANNOT enforce a code for future possibility. If they request conduit the whole way I would ask for a code reference. If they get pissy because of it then a call to a superior might be in order.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

In NJ most inspectors are fair and will site code sections, the others are getting better. I remember when I was failed for not having a GREEN ground screw. I questioned the inspector and told him he will not find it in the NEC. He had to go back and check, but in the end agreed.
Sometimes you just have pick your battles. Being a licensed inspector does help, since you are on the same level as them.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

NJMarine said:


> Being a licensed inspector does help, since you are on the same level as them.


I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I find this comment VERY interesting. 
Are you saying an inspector is at a higher level as an electrician, or lower?


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

NJMarine said:


> I agree that everyone *should* follow the UCC and 2008 code, but I have done above ground pools where the area requires Conduit and and insulated ground from panel to pool pump. The reason someone might istall a pool light later. I do not fight with the inspector ,price the job based on this requirement in that area, but I do bring it up with other inspectors at classes.
> Jomay waiting for call.


You meant "*shall*" right? And no inspector in NJ can require anything other then what the UCC and NEC require. The whole purpose of the Uniform Construction Code is to create uniformity throughout the state. Thus eliminating the "in my town you'll do it my way" mentality. Unfortunately most EC's won't challange the EI "cause they don't wanna piss him off". And that really pisses me off. I have over twenty years experience as a Electrical Subcode Official/Inspector and I work hard at enforcing the NEC as intended and adopted.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

electures said:


> You meant "*shall*" right? And no inspector in NJ can require anything other then what the UCC and NEC require. The whole purpose of the Uniform Construction Code is to create uniformity throughout the state. Thus eliminating the "in my town you'll do it my way" mentality. Unfortunately most EC's won't challange the EI "cause they don't wanna piss him off". And that really pisses me off. I have over twenty years experience as a Electrical Subcode Official/Inspector and I work hard at enforcing the NEC as intended and adopted.


 I agree with you. especially about EC's not challanging the inspector.
I remember when I first started out an inspector, his statement to me was, Do you have your code book, all electricians should have the codebook with them. That way you want to question my violation, you can show meithe codebook why you feel I am wrong.
This how all inspectors should be open minded and willing to be questioned. without being offended.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

NJMarine said:


> I agree with you. especially about EC's not challanging the inspector.
> I remember when I first started out an inspector, his statement to me was, Do you have your code book, all electricians should have the codebook with them. That way you want to question my violation, you can show meithe codebook why you feel I am wrong.
> This how all inspectors should be open minded and willing to be questioned. without being offended.


There were few case I feel it was wrong or specail situation and I just ploitely show the Art #'s and talk it over and many time it come out very cival and nice and they did learn something new from me and I learn something new along the way.

Merci.
Marc


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

electures said:


> Not in Jew Jersey! All electrical work shall comply with the UCC and the 2008 NEC. Period!
> 
> As for the OP. I recently read an article somewhere where a mother and widow told of her husband not wanting to pay a professional electrician to wire their pool. Her husband died in the pool as a result of his unsafe wiring. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL!!!!


Were you able to find out why? I would think that if he owns the pool and did his wiring, it is still the job of the inspector to correct (fail or pass) if something is wrong in the project. Potentially, this can be a murder case vs inspector, right


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> I agree that everyone should follow the UCC and 2008 code, but I have done above ground pools where the area requires Conduit and and insulated ground from panel to pool pump. The reason someone might istall a pool light later. I do not fight with the inspector ,price the job based on this requirement in that area, but I do bring it up with other inspectors at classes.
> Jomay waiting for call.


I apologize, but I have been travelling lately. I got the electrical permit last Tues. I'm sched to dig the trench this weekend. I will give you a call tomorrow as I plan to buy the materials towards cob. Note: I already have the ground rod - given free by a friend - so I was still planning to install it. I realized that everyone here is saying that it wont make my pool safer neither it is required, but if it doesnt make it "unsafe" I'd probably install it anyway. The reason being is that I have the ground rod in the drawing that I submitted, and I'm not sure if they will fail me in inspection, if they didnt see my "final product" equally the same as to what I submitted.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Why would you fail for not installing something that is not needed and will do nothing to improve your safety in the pool?

You do not need a ground rod for the pool.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> Why would you fail for not installing something that is not needed and will do nothing to improve your safety in the pool?
> 
> You do not need a ground rod for the pool.


Thanks!


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/428372-bonding-above-ground-pool.html

I found this link and now I have an idea how to bond the pool. Obviously, there's no ground rod mentioned (neither the nec), so Just like what you guys said, i wont waste my time using the ground rod. I have few other questions that need confirmation from the experts...

1) Is the trenching for bonding wire - as depicted in the link I just posted- necessary? Eg, not more than 3' from pool wall, 4" deep. I didnt see this anywhere in the code, and this might just be an interpretation and for "good looks".

2) I'll be using nm-b from my panel up to the side of the wall, and then use uf-b once it gets out (and buried via sched 40 pvc conduit). I was planning on using "outdoor electrical junction box"' but I hesitated as one of the instructions that I have from our town (based on 2008 nec) is to use junction boxes with covers for interiors only. Is this the norm? Sorry, but I cant find any pdf version of the whole 2008 nec to verify it by myself.

3) Per 2008 Nec, NJMarine was right that I need "water bond". The waterbonder.com site is helpfl, but I just want to get your thoughts if that product is standard and if it would fit the Lomart Ultra Promega pump. Does anybody else know other waterbonder products that I can easily buy/get from HD or Lowes?

NJmarine - i left you vm with my callback last night and today. 

Thanks in advance folks!


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Type UF cannot be used to wire a pool. The grounding conductor needs to be insulated. In UF it is covered, not insulated.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> Type UF cannot be used to wire a pool. The grounding conductor needs to be insulated. In UF it is covered, not insulated.


Should I be using THHN/THWN instead? I got confused by the list I got from town where it said:
- 12/2romex (permitted inside only)
- 12/2 uf permitted for reqd pool receptacle
- sched 40 pvc burried 18" below grade (3 #12 in conduit on 20a - white, blk, green)

Also I just found a copy of the 2008 NEC - http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=802


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

jomay said:


> Should I be using THHN/THWN instead? I got confused by the list I got from town where it said:
> - 12/2romex (permitted inside only) correct
> - 12/2 uf permitted for reqd pool receptacle, for the required convenience receptacle, not the pool pump receptacle
> - sched 40 pvc burried 18" below grade (3 #12 in conduit on 20a - white, blk, green) using THWN individual conductors in the proper sizes and colors.
> ...


See my notes in blue above.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> See my notes in blue above.


I was only able to get thhn (accdg to my rcpt), but the Lowes associate said it's the same... I remember "w" stands for wet conditions, while "h" is for heat... Should I be concerned?


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

jomay said:


> I was only able to get thhn (accdg to my rcpt), but the Lowes associate said it's the same... I remember "w" stands for wet conditions, while "h" is for heat... Should I be concerned?


The associate is wrong. THWN listing is absolutely required for wet conditions; THHN is not water resistant and can fall apart in underground conduit. But your receipt is probably also wrong. Look at the printed information on the wire itself. It probably says "THHN THWN". Most wire these days is dual-listed. In fact, it's kind of hard to find THHN that's not also "W" listed. Just make sure yours is.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

sirsparksalot said:


> You cannot use NM-B underground or outside. You need to make sure the cable is UF.


Never run UF to a pool filter motor. EVER!!:no:


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> I apologize, but I have been travelling lately. I got the electrical permit last Tues. I'm sched to dig the trench this weekend. I will give you a call tomorrow as I plan to buy the materials towards cob. Note: I already have the ground rod - given free by a friend - so I was still planning to install it. *I realized that everyone here is saying that it wont make my pool safer neither it is required, but if it doesnt make it "unsafe" I'd probably install it anyway.* The reason being is that I have the ground rod in the drawing that I submitted, and I'm not sure if they will fail me in inspection, if they didnt see my "final product" equally the same as to what I submitted.


Allow me to explain why you do not want a ground rod. If there is a poor connection at the service for the grounding electrode system anywhere from the POCO XFMR upto and including the service equipment, it could introduce impedence into the grounding electrode system. If you drive a ground rod and bond it to the motor it will also be connected to the equipment ground and through to the service. If the impedence to the pool ground rod is less then the grounding electrode system, what do you think is going to happen if there is a fault? It is going to take the path of least resistance. Which is towards to pool. Do you really want to draw and fault current towards a pool that your close family members will be swimming in? I hope not. Now you have read the other posts from some highly qualified electricians and mine. DO NOT INSTALL A GROUND ROD!!!!


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> Should I be using THHN/THWN instead? I got confused by the list I got from town where it said:
> - *12/2romex (permitted inside only)*
> - 12/2 uf permitted for reqd pool receptacle
> - sched 40 pvc burried 18" below grade (3 #12 in conduit on 20a - white, blk, green)
> ...


Please note that the NEC states NM is permitted *inside* the dwelling unit. If you run the romex outside directly into the back of the box it is now *outside*. Some other posters will disagree with my statement, but I personally know of several inspectors who will fail the installation. Take my advice and make the transition in wiring methods inside. It may save you some trouble..


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

mpoulton said:


> The associate is wrong. THWN listing is absolutely required for wet conditions; THHN is not water resistant and can fall apart in underground conduit. But your receipt is probably also wrong. Look at the printed information on the wire itself. It probably says "THHN THWN". Most wire these days is dual-listed. In fact, it's kind of hard to find THHN that's not also "W" listed. Just make sure yours is.


You are right! The wire is labeled as "thhn or thwn". Thanks!


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

electures said:


> ...If the impedence to the pool ground rod is less then the grounding electrode system, what do you think is going to happen if there is a fault? It is going to take the path of least resistance. Which is towards to pool...


This I dont get, bec I thought current will pass thru the rod that is buried to the earth ground. I believe ground rod has no resistance, just like having a "bonding wire" buried in the ground, right? The way I understand it, is that ground rod is more for "grounding" and not "bonding". I believe grounding makes it more safer, but it isnt a NEC requirement. Simply (or probably?) because nobody swims in the pool when it rains, anyway...


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

electures said:


> Please note that the NEC states NM is permitted inside the dwelling unit. If you run the romex outside directly into the back of the box it is now outside. Some other posters will disagree with my statement, but I personally know of several inspectors who will fail the installation. Take my advice and make the transition in wiring methods inside. It may save you some trouble..


I will have romex from panel to junction box inside the crawlspace... Junction box is about 1' away from the hole in the wall. I have abt 6" pvc that goes into the hole, then attaches to the pulling elbow outside the wall, then onto the sched 40 pvc conduit where all the 3 #12 goes thru.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

jomay said:


> This I dont get, bec I thought current will pass thru the rod that is buried to the earth ground. I believe ground rod has no resistance, just like having a "bonding wire" buried in the ground, right? The way I understand it, is that ground rod is more for "grounding" and not "bonding". I believe grounding makes it more safer, but it isnt a NEC requirement. Simply (or probably?) because nobody swims in the pool when it rains, anyway...


Ground rods do not have zero resistance. In fact, they have quite high resistance. The resistance of a ground rod may vary from a few ohms (very uncommon) to a few hundred ohms. The NEC requires that a single rod have less than 25 ohms impedance, or that two rods be installed. Note that there is no requirement that more rods be installed until the impedance is low enough - just that you have two. So everyone drives two, because few ground rods have less than 25 ohm impedance, and it's very hard to test the actual impedance anyway. Ground rods are useless for clearing faults (i.e. tripping the circuit breaker in case of a ground fault), which is one main purpose of bonding. You can connect a hot wire directly to a ground rod and it will not trip the breaker - it will usually only draw a few amps at most. Thus, it serves no purpose in protecting people from ground faults. What the ground rod does under normal operating conditions is carry a miniscule amount of current that may be capacitively coupled from the utility's high voltage lines through the transformer, thus keeping the system neutral's voltage the same as actual ground, and the system's line voltage appropriately referenced to the actual ground. It also provides a small degree of protection from nearby lightning strikes.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

electures said:


> Please note that the NEC states NM is permitted *inside* the dwelling unit. If you run the romex outside directly into the back of the box it is now *outside*. Some other posters will disagree with my statement, but I personally know of several inspectors who will fail the installation. Take my advice and make the transition in wiring methods inside. It may save you some trouble..


With no offense meant to you, I must say I am one of those that completely disagrees with this interpretation and find inspectors like this to be thick headed and power happy. 

It is a completely foolish interpretation IMO, and does not convey the spirit of that section of code. This is why we have so many changes every three years. We have to change two or three words in some sections to clarify things to be extra clear to avoid idiotic interpretations.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> With no offense meant to you, I must say I am one of those that completely disagrees with this interpretation and find inspectors like this to be thick headed and power happy.
> 
> It is a completely foolish interpretation IMO, and does not convey the spirit of that section of code. This is why we have so many changes every three years. We have to change two or three words in some sections to clarify things to be extra clear to avoid idiotic interpretations.


I know from previous conversations on ET. That is why I worded it the way I did. But he lives in NJ I figured I would warn him.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

AH. Point taken.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> AH. Point taken.


I actually know the person who is the chair for CMP 680. He is also past international president of IAEI and the treasurer of my local chapter of IAEI. I will see him in a few weeks and I am going to ask him his thoughts on this subject. I'll let yoo know when I do.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> Were you able to find out why? I would think that if he owns the pool and did his wiring, it is still the job of the inspector to correct (fail or pass) if something is wrong in the project. Potentially, this can be a murder case vs inspector, right


I found the article here. It doen't state if there was a permit and inspection or not.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

I am not sure if I have to create new thread for this next question of mine. Since it is still related to my pool project, I wonder if anyone can still help.

If you look at the picture that I originally posted, my panel doesnt have separate neutral and ground bars. Is that ok? Does that mean I should just connect both neutral (white) and ground (green or bare) wires together to the ground/neutral bar?


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> I am not sure if I have to create new thread for this next question of mine. Since it is still related to my pool project, I wonder if anyone can still help.
> 
> If you look at the picture that I originally posted, my panel doesnt have separate neutral and ground bars. Is that ok? Does that mean I should just connect both neutral (white) and ground (green or bare) wires together to the ground/neutral bar?


It appears to be the main service panel. If not and in fact it is a sub panel (fed from another panel) the neutrals and grounds shall be seperated. One thing I did notice from your pic is the equipment grounds are a mess. They should be cleaned up and terminated per the panel label. Not wrapped up in a knot. If it is a main service both the equipment grounding and neutral conductors can terminate on the same bar, but under different screws.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

electures said:


> It appears to be the main service panel. If not and in fact it is a sub panel (fed from another panel) the neutrals and grounds shall be seperated. One thing I did notice from your pic is the equipment grounds are a mess. They should be cleaned up and terminated per the panel label. Not wrapped up in a knot. If it is a main service both the equipment grounding and neutral conductors can terminate on the same bar, but under different screws.


I am back after having to a new laptop. I agree with electures.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

electures said:


> It appears to be the main service panel. If not and in fact it is a sub panel (fed from another panel) the neutrals and grounds shall be seperated. One thing I did notice from your pic is the equipment grounds are a mess. They should be cleaned up and terminated per the panel label. Not wrapped up in a knot. If it is a main service both the equipment grounding and neutral conductors can terminate on the same bar, but under different screws.


Can I solder the grounds (such that I have only one ground screwed to the bar) instead of having the knot?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You could add an auxillary ground bar kit and move the grounds to it.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> Can I solder the grounds (such that I have only one ground screwed to the bar) instead of having the knot?


 
No, can't use solder.

Jims' suggestion of an auxillary ground bar kit is also a good idea. Or double and triple up on the ground bar with the grounds only (but follow the instructions on the panel label). Neutrals are only one wire per terminal.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> You could add an auxillary ground bar kit and move the grounds to it.


Thanks, Jim! I'll shop around for the aux ground bar today. Any pointers how to install it? My thinking is just mount it on the panel via screw and then extend the main ground/neutral bar using one copper wire to the aux bar, and connect those other wires (bundled/pig-tailed) into the aux bar.

If I opt to build sub-panel, what wire gauge should I use from the main panel? Assuming, I'll only have 50a in the sub-panel.


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## NJMarine (Apr 13, 2011)

This is amain panel, so theground barkit get attached with the screws that come with it. Than just start putting to ground wires under each terminal. You do not to add a jumper wire.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

NJMarine said:


> This is amain panel, so theground barkit get attached with the screws that come with it. Than just start putting to ground wires under each terminal. You do not to add a jumper wire.


I tried to hook up the ground kit, but I have no space for it. . I ended up using thr "back row bar" as it's pretty empty. I had a hard time putting the neutral and ground wires though. Down the road, I'd probably have to clean it up using sub-panel. Any idea what wire size should I use for 50amp sub-panel?

On another note, I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My trench passed the inspection and my pool is scheduled to be up today. Hopefully, I have time to bond 'em while the sun is up. If not, hopefully by Monday I can pass the final inspection.


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## jomay (May 26, 2011)

electures said:


> One thing I did notice from your pic is the equipment grounds are a mess. They should be cleaned up and terminated per the panel label. Not wrapped up in a knot. If it is a main service both the equipment grounding and neutral conductors can terminate on the same bar, but under different screws.


I bought an old house, and since it passed its inspection (and I am not an electrician) I never put time looking at my panel. I live here for about 5 years now, and after installing my first addition of 20a breaker, I agree more than 100% about the mess I'm dealing with - eg the bar in the back row is almost empty, while the one in front is "jampacked", and then there are screws handling 3 neutrals, while there are grounds installed on either back or front bars. I've been into datacom/telecom business, and I thought this is worse than the "spaghetti" wires in data center. I'll try to clean it up using sub-panel... but not today... hopefully, in the next quarter or so.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

jomay said:


> I bought an old house, and since it passed its inspection (and I am not an electrician) I never put time looking at my panel. I live here for about 5 years now, and after installing my first addition of 20a breaker, I agree more than 100% about the mess I'm dealing with - eg the bar in the back row is almost empty, while the one in front is "jampacked", and then there are screws handling *3 neutrals*, while there are grounds installed on either back or front bars. I've been into datacom/telecom business, and I thought this is worse than the "spaghetti" wires in data center. I'll try to clean it up using sub-panel... but not today... hopefully, in the next quarter or so.


When you redo the neutrals, one wire per terminal. Grounds follow the panel label..


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

jomay said:


> Any idea what wire size should I use for 50amp sub-panel?


It's in the NEC.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

gregzoll said:


> Bonding is like handshaking, hugging your buddy. Basically it is a piece of wire as specified in either the manual of the equipment, or the rules by your AHJ at a certain awg to *connect between the equipment and a ground*. Keep in mind how close your neighbors are, and if you have a HOA, because they can cause your pool to become more of a headache, especially those neighbors that think they are instantly invited all the time to use it.
> 
> Also, check to make sure if you need an alarm on the gate & back door, which is usually mandated in insurance policy. With wifi cams being cheap now days, I would get one and set it up to alert you if any activity, especially with the iPhone, there is a app called iCam, which works with multiple cameras. Good luck and let us know how things go.


Sorry, just caught this. Grounding and bonding are two completely different things and the purpose of the bonding wire is* not to ground anything. *It is to eliminate any difference of potential between metal objects around and associated with the pool.


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