# Retaining Wall



## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

I'm trying to figure out what would be both cheaper and easier to build a long but very low retaining wall with, 4x4 treated posts or retaining wall block. Aside from my driveway and the side entrance to my house, my property is on a slope. I want to buy a shed to store things in but need at least a 10'x14' area to place it on. I'm going to expand my gravel driveway width wise so I have to tear out the existing railroad ties and I want to push it out about 4' but the highest point that the wall would be is only about 3' high and it's right where I would be placing the shed at. I have done retaining walls even higher than this so I know what to do there. I'm wondering how I would do a 4"x4" post wall if it would be cheaper than the block retaining wall method. If I went the wooden post method, couldn't I just use long spikes (rebar?) and get the first row nailed in deep then maybe every row going up add more spikes into the lumber until I get to the top? Not sure how this works with a shorter height wall. Any help here is appreciated.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> I'm trying to figure out what would be both cheaper and easier to build a long but very low retaining wall with, 4x4 treated posts or retaining wall block. Aside from my driveway and the side entrance to my house, my property is on a slope. I want to buy a shed to store things in but need at least a 10'x14' area to place it on. I'm going to expand my gravel driveway width wise so I have to tear out the existing railroad ties and I want to push it out about 4' but the highest point that the wall would be is only about 3' high and it's right where I would be placing the shed at. I have done retaining walls even higher than this so I know what to do there. I'm wondering how I would do a 4"x4" post wall if it would be cheaper than the block retaining wall method. If I went the wooden post method, couldn't I just use long spikes (rebar?) and get the first row nailed in deep then maybe every row going up add more spikes into the lumber until I get to the top? Not sure how this works with a shorter height wall. Any help here is appreciated.


 Where I live you can re invent that wheel any way you want up to 3 ft, you need an engineer to build one 37inches high. 


One style


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Yeah, I was also trying to avoid any kind of post digging/cement burying if possible. I just did a second measure and right where the highest point would be right where I want to put the shed is only a touch more than two feet. It will be at least 60' long if not a touch longer since I'll have to end it somehow on my other end. I think I may just go with block.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Pre drill every hole, and then the spikes, or re-bar to hold the 4X4 s together. 

Here I think that it's under 4 feet high, before you even need a permit, unless you are in a city. 

They use a lot of red flagstone here for this purpose, just stack it and leave it, but occasionally due to water and freezing they fail, and need rebuilt every ten years or so. 

To place a shed, without any terracing, I use C M U as the base, get the spots where the Concrete Mason Unit, is to sit level flat, then stack one or two high, depending on the elevation it is, until all CMU tops are equal level, then build the shed on these. 

I have 5 sheds in my yard built that way, been there 30+ years, and still level, solid, sturdy.


ED


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

de-nagorg said:


> Pre drill every hole, and then the spikes, or re-bar to hold the 4X4 s together.
> 
> ED



That's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Still may just do retaining wall block though. Had to look up what CMU's were. We call them cinder blocks. :vs_laugh: Anyway, it's a pre-built shed so it will sit on the blocks. The reason I need to expand the driveway is because where the opening of the shed will be half on/half off the driveway and where I am putting the shed, it's only 8' wide and I need to get a 10' wide shed there so it would be just hanging over by two feet. Maybe not a huge deal but it would drive me nuts having it like that. That's why I need to just build me a wall so I can make the whole thing larger and it'll just make it all easier.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Notice the timber, all you wood needs to treated ground contact tags on the lumber and the hundreds of knife cuts in the surface of the timbers. That's ground contact.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

That's pretty much how I thought of doing it if I did it with wood. Since my highest point will only be about 2 1/2' high, I wouldn't think I would need the deadman they're talking about. Just have to figure out what a timbuh is...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> That's pretty much how I thought of doing it if I did it with wood. Since my highest point will only be about 2 1/2' high, I wouldn't think I would need the deadman they're talking about. Just have to figure out what a timbuh is...


Drainage like he did is about the most important part. And the dead man, make that decision when you get there. if the hill is firm it would be fine but if it wants to slough down you may want a dead man to make sure it can take the pressure.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

clancaster23 said:


> That's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Still may just do retaining wall block though. Had to look up what CMU's were. We call them cinder blocks. :vs_laugh:



Cinder Blocks have not been made for decades. 

They are called different thing in different parts of the Country.

ED


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> That's pretty much how I thought of doing it if I did it with wood. Since my highest point will only be about 2 1/2' high, I wouldn't think I would need the deadman they're talking about. Just have to figure out what a timbuh is...


 Timbuh can get expensive I would look at Allan block too.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Yes I am looking at block as well. I built a wall on the other side of my driveway a year ago and it still looks good. I just thought timber would be easier but I may still go with block since I know it'll work. Once you get the footer in it's pretty much back filling with gravel.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Right now I'm thinking using wood will cost a lot less than what a block wall will if I'm using 4x4's. I still have to get exact numbers but I think it'll be a few hundred less going with wood. And since it won't be all that high, about two and a half feet at it's highest point, I think it should do just as good a job. I'll be having some gravel brought in tomorrow and I'll be doing a lot of measuring then going to the store to see what things cost and go from there. If I do use wood, I'll be setting the first row with the long rebar then I guess they make long screws that you use to fasten the rest of the wall on top each other. Going to be fun. Love starting new projects like this.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Once you factor in the cost of the screws, and added hardware, you might find that it's very close to even as to which one costs more.

Go with what looks better to your SWMBO, that is all that matters. 


ED


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## 195795 (May 24, 2013)

Do a gabion wall :smile:


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

No I don't think so. Ugly


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

After doing a lot more looking, I think I want to go with wood, putting 4x4 posts in the ground and then fasten 2x6 lumber to the inside. Question is how deep will I have to bury the posts to make for a strong wall? The highest the wall will be is 2 1/2 feet but it'll be all gravel behind it and I'll want to pack it in so that it's solid. Should I put some sort of fabric or anything in between the boards and the gravel? Also, what would be the best way to fasten the boards to the posts?


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## 195795 (May 24, 2013)

clancaster23 said:


> No I don't think so. Ugly


Shhh...don't tell these owners of $2 million home:vs_laugh:


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Some people have more money than brains. I have neither.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I think I would want them close to 2 ft deep unless frost is deeper, then frost depth. 
fabric between dirt and gravel, Hot dipped galvanised nails.
The post will be random so I would buy longer length, like 12 ft so you have less waste, ground contact wood only and paint the ends with treatment.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Got started on the digging of holes today and got the first load of gravel yesterday. Got two posts in the ground and four more holes dug with about 15 to go. I decided to go with 2'x10's for the wall and I think I'll be using nuts and bolts to fasten the boards to the posts. I like that better than nails or screws.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> Got started on the digging of holes today and got the first load of gravel yesterday. Got two posts in the ground and four more holes dug with about 15 to go. I decided to go with 2'x10's for the wall and I think I'll be using nuts and bolts to fasten the boards to the posts. I like that better than nails or screws.


 Hard to imagine them falling off after it has been backfilled.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Nealtw said:


> Hard to imagine them falling off after it has been backfilled.


That depends on which side of the post one puts the boards.

On the rock side, pressure keeps them on, on the other side, pressure pulls them out. 

Some people are short sighted and build wrong, seen it. 

Using bolts with large fender washers will be the ultimate way to hold the boards , no matter which side they are put on.


ED


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Boards will be on the gravel side.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Got most of my posts in and now I am thinking I want to possibly put two deadmen in where the shed and the most gravel will be just for reassurance sake. Thing is if I'm going to have my posts on the outside of the wall, I am not sure how I will attach them to the wall. I don't want them to stick through my wall boards since I'm trying to keep them nice but I can't think of any other way that makes sense. Anyone with any ideas? Maybe I can put an additional post on the back side of the post, bolt them together then bolt the deadmen to those posts. Maybe that could work.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> Got most of my posts in and now I am thinking I want to possibly put two deadmen in where the shed and the most gravel will be just for reassurance sake. Thing is if I'm going to have my posts on the outside of the wall, I am not sure how I will attach them to the wall. I don't want them to stick through my wall boards since I'm trying to keep them nice but I can't think of any other way that makes sense. Anyone with any ideas? Maybe I can put an additional post on the back side of the post, bolt them together then bolt the deadmen to those posts. Maybe that could work.


 Did you watch the video in post #2 ?


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

Yeah I did but that type won't quite work for me. They are using dirt to backfill the whole thing. Sticking these things in the gravel won't do anything at all since it'll be the gravel pushing against the wall. I'll be backfilling with mostly gravel, especially right up against the 2x10's that I'm using for the wall so I need to go further back into the ground. That's why I need to use the more typical T shaped ones that will reach further back under where the shed will eventually be.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> Yeah I did but that type won't quite work for me. They are using dirt to backfill the whole thing. Sticking these things in the gravel won't do anything at all since it'll be the gravel pushing against the wall. I'll be backfilling with mostly gravel, especially right up against the 2x10's that I'm using for the wall so I need to go further back into the ground. That's why I need to use the more typical T shaped ones that will reach further back under where the shed will eventually be.


 Use their design just longer so you go back a couple feet into the dirt, 
It is the fill behind the top of the wall that will be pushing so the weight of the grave would stop that. 
But if you want the other style I would just bolt it to the side of a post and notch the 2x around it.


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

I just figured since the gravel will be what would push against the wall that having the deadman buried in almost only gravel really wouldn't serve a purpose. I could be wrong though. I'm now thinking I will be using nails to fasten the 2bys to the posts and to get the deadmen attached to the wall I will bolt a post to the inside of the ones I'm wanting to put a deadman on so it'll be outside post, 2by and inside post just bolted through the 2by and outside post. Then I can bolt the deadman to the inside post and that should relieve any worries I have about it not being strong enough. Should I use nails instead of screws? The boards will be on the inside so I know they won't go anywhere if they're nailed on but I'm kind of iffy on beating on these posts to attach the boards.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

clancaster23 said:


> I just figured since the gravel will be what would push against the wall that having the deadman buried in almost only gravel really wouldn't serve a purpose. I could be wrong though. I'm now thinking I will be using nails to fasten the 2bys to the posts and to get the deadmen attached to the wall I will bolt a post to the inside of the ones I'm wanting to put a deadman on so it'll be outside post, 2by and inside post just bolted through the 2by and outside post. Then I can bolt the deadman to the inside post and that should relieve any worries I have about it not being strong enough. Should I use nails instead of screws? The boards will be on the inside so I know they won't go anywhere if they're nailed on but I'm kind of iffy on beating on these posts to attach the boards.


 If you can knock the post loose with a hammer, you are in trouble, 
What pushes the wall over is water filling the dirt behind the wall that can't drain adding a ton of weight or freezing really does it. So your drain rock solves most of that. So really what ever weight you put behind the wall should be all it ever has to deal with.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

A framing nail gun, won't have any impact on the posts, if nailing.

ED


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I rather like the looks of the walls that *shumakerscott* put into his _German house rebuild_. (Pages 166-168 and 176-178)


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

de-nagorg said:


> A framing nail gun, won't have any impact on the posts, if nailing.
> 
> ED


I do have a small pancake compressor that's 150 PSI but only trim tools for it. I wonder if I can use a framing nailer with it. The ones I'm looking at say minimum 70 PSI. I'm going to stop after work and pick up more lumber for the weekend. I'll have to check them out.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

clancaster23 said:


> I do have a small pancake compressor that's 150 PSI but only trim tools for it. I wonder if I can use a framing nailer with it. The ones I'm looking at say minimum 70 PSI.


Yep, mine works fine on a pancake compressor, remember to regulate the pressure, to less than MAX, you don't want to break it.


ED


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## clancaster23 (Mar 30, 2013)

So I got the wall up and part way through spreading gravel and now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have that much gravel right up against the wall. I'm afraid of the weight of the gravel after it's down pushing the posts even though they are in deep. I'm not sure what to do now though. Would just plain dirt fill be easier on the wall until I get about 6 inches from the top then I can top it off with a good layer of gravel? Two pics to show what I got. Using 2"x10"s so I got about 20" to fill and I'm thinking it shouldn't be solid gravel.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tR41cX3Z7mgacBTl4b2gm0bxlCZgvt69

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A9HKgt56r_scVKS2ulyNmihLjzu9-LUq


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

The gravel will be less weight than solid dirt, due to the small pockets left between them, even if vibrated packed. 

So use either one, and if using a power tamper, do be gentle around the edges.

ED


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

Cheapest long lasting retaining wall is one constructed using railroad ties. Only drawback is their weight of over 100 lbs per tie.


http://www.akrailroad.com/products/landscape-ties


An alternative solution for a retaining wall is to buy wire gabion cages which are then filled with rocks. Very different look at very stable but I would want to have a tractor access at the very least and not be hauling the rocks in a wheelbarrow (unless I rented a power wheelbarrow). 



https://www.gabion1.com/square-gabions/


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