# porcelain versus ceramic tile



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Porcelain tile IS ceramic tile. The recipes are slightly different. Porcelain tiles tend to have a higher density and they have a lower moisture absorbtion rate.

Porcelain is the same makeup throughout its thickness but some of it can have a glazed surface. Not all porcelain has a glazed surface. Standard ceramic tile usually has a glazed surface but a different body.

Most all ceramic tiles are quality products and even the lessor products if installed correctly will serve you well.

The bigger issues arise with the substrate and structural criteria and the installation methods used, the tile is the least of your worries.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Porcelain tiles are stronger, yes, but are they needed, not always. They have their place, the are more dense, meaning that when something is dropped on it they are LESS likely to chip, but yet still can. Their biggest advantage is because they are so dense they can be installed in an exterior location no matter the climate. You will find about 90% of porcelain will have a PEI rating of 5 which is as high as it goes. This is a wear rating given to tile from the Porcelain Enamel Institute and all tile companys list this information about their products. The only time you're likely to find a porcelain at a rating lower than 5 is if it's a dark colour. For some reason they are not able to obtain as hard of a glaze on a darker colour, so you may see something like a 4+ listed instead. As noted in the last post not all porcelain are glazed, so make sure if you go that way to get a glazed one or you'll be sorry and forever cleaning it and applying sealer. Also note most installers will charge more to install porcelain, they are harder to cut and they require more expensive modified mortars.

Ceramic on the other hand in most cases does just fine anywhere in a house. For any high traffic area, as a kitchen would be we want to see NOTHING LESS than a PEI of 3, we really would rather only see a 4, but some 3's are ok too. Anything less than a 3 DOES NOT belong on a floor no matter what they tell you. They chip way too easy.

You base is also SO important, because even a porcelain will crack if the base isn't right. Tile cracking has NOTHING to do with poor quality tile, it's poor quality installation!

We do testing on anything new that comes in just by simply tapping a screw driver against the EDGE of the tile and if it chips in the first tap or two we won't sell it.

Good luck, have fun with it, and find a reputable company that will give a written guarantee on their workman ship and back the tile 100% should there be a fault in the tile. (We guarantee for as long as you own the house, and we back the tiles, if something goes wrong and it's a glaze failure, we fix your floor and then go after the company we bought the tile from for the value of the replacement, of which I'm sure they in turn go back after their supplier and get a credit somehow as well as it was the factory in the end that made the mistake. I hope you can find similiar in your area)


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## ayeshaa (Apr 24, 2008)

The question frequently asked: “What is the difference between porcelain tile and ceramic tile?” Well the answers pretty simple. Porcelain tile is effectively Ceramic tile. It is just made of a more refined material. 

All ceramic tiles are made up of clay and quartz ferrous sand materials, along with water. Once the tiles are formed they are fired to high temperatures and in some cases their surfaces are glazed. The only difference between Porcelain tile and regular ceramic tile is that the clay used in porcelain tile is more highly refined and purified. Consequently, porcelain tiles are denser than a standard ceramic tile. 

As a result, porcelain tiles are more rugged making them ideal for harsher applications such as flooring. Also, because of their higher density, porcelain tiles are less likely to absorb moisture (0.5%) which makes them more durable and more resistant to staining. Porcelain tiles are frequently found in floor applications, outdoor areas, and in cold weather climates where freezing can occur. With their low absorption capability they are less likely to crack in cold weather climates.

Porcelain tile costs a little more than the traditional, more porous, standard clay tile; however prices in general have been coming down in recent years for ceramic tile.

Ceramic tile comes in either glazed or unglazed surfaces. The glazed surfaces are like glass and are best used on walls as they are too slippery for floor applications. Glazed ceramic tiles are also a little more susceptible to cracking.

Porcelain tile is constructed using red, brown or white clay. Most porcelain tile, however, is constructed using white clay. 

When selecting any ceramic tile it is important to look at the PEI factor. This is the scratch resistance factor. A PEI of 1 is ideal for walls. A PEI of 2 is best for bathrooms and kitchens. A PEI of 3 is appropriate for all residential applications, and PEIs of 4 and 5 are applicable for commercial and heavy commercial applications, respectively. 

http://www.homeadditionplus.com/tile-stone-info/Porcelain-tile-vs-ceramic-tile.htm


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## MattCoops (Jan 10, 2007)

How are porcelain tiles "stronger"?
Do they lift weights?


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Matt...always a comedian in the group!!

Ayeshaa, 

I do beg to differ on two of your points, I have sold tile for over 9 years now and 

1. NEVER other than Saltillo ever seen a UNGLAZED ceramic. The glazing is what gives it strength and protects it from staining, without it the clay would chip and fall apart.

2. A glazed ceramic IS NOT always GLOSSY and SLIPPERY, many ceramic tiles are glazed and the glazing is MATTE in finish and very durable. Also many are textured, and glazed and don't look like they have a glaze on them at all but they do. Many porcelains are not glazed at all which will make them stain easier than a ceramic so you have to know what you're buying. They come unglazed for the purpose of slip resistance for either commercial or exterior use, most people won't put them in their homes, you can, but most won't want the work.

3. A PEI rating of 2 IS NOT suitable for ANY floor application that is a WALL tile and would chip and crack on any floor application. A 3 is minimum for a floor, and preferrably only a bathroom or light use area, and a 4 for a kitchen or high use area, and a 5 for commercial. A 4 would not hold up in a commercial zone (unless you're talking LIGHT foot traffic like a lawyers office or hair salon, but not something like a factory/restaurant/bank etc) as a 4 is a ceramic product and a softer glaze and through constant travel on it you would eventually wear through the glaze and it would look like a cheap buffet restaurant in no time where you see the traffic patterns on the floors.

You had alot of great info on how they are made and processed, and very accurate, however I wouldn't trust your book source on the other information. I promise you I wouldn't steer you wrong, I've been trained on them and sold only tiles and natural stone for almost 9 years now at a very reputable tile company.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

dochorn said:


> 1. NEVER other than Saltillo ever seen a UNGLAZED ceramic. The glazing is what gives it strength and protects it from staining, without it the clay would chip and fall apart.



unglazed ceramic right here:
http://www.fastfloors.com/lp_16325,...lazed-Mosaic-1-x-1-BlackEbony/product.htm#NAV


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

We actually sell those as well, except they've changed their tile format to a porcelain and they are unglazed, the ceramic format we used to sell about a year ago however was glazed. I don't know if they market something different for the USA vs. Canada, but we ordered most our stuff up from the USA location. We use three of the colours as an instock item that we use in all new home shower stalls, and I've installed them myself as well and they were a porcelain tile, so I don't have an answer as to why the brochure says ceramic. Either they sell differently to the USA or they haven't updated the web page.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Check this link direct from Dal Tile themselves, they advertise it as a colorbody porcelain
http://daltileproducts.com/series.cfm?series=238#3978


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

dochorn said:


> Check this link direct from Dal Tile themselves, they advertise it as a colorbody porcelain
> http://daltileproducts.com/series.cfm?series=238#3978


Yes, I see. The only reason I sent that link is I was just looking at that tile a few days ago and noticed it said unglazed ceramic.


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

Good information here. 

Question for you guys. I guess I shot and I'm asking a question later. I already purchased tile for my bathroom.  

I purchased ceramic tile by Stonepeak Ceramics from a local tile store. This is the spec on the 'slate' style.

http://www.stonepeakceramics.com/download/Slate_Data_Sheet.pdf

I don't see a PEI rating. I did some brief research before purchasing, but I stress the word BRIEF. I usually do more research, but the product looked good and I loved the color and design of the Everglades style. 

http://www.stonepeakceramics.com/products-collections-tiles.php?coll=SLATE&linea=EVERGLADES

Maybe ignorance is bliss and I should just install what I bought and never know, but I'd be curious what you think of this brand tile. I'm extremely happy with the look and feel of it... and it wasn't cheap.  I hope to install it within the month.


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

AdamB5000, I can see why you fell in love with that tile, it's absolutely gorgeous. 

First off, I know extremely little about tile, that said I do know what PEI ratings mean as dochorn described above. In the links to the tile you supplied I believe the numbers you see on each tile (called ware resistance) are the PEI ratings, but I'm not positive, but it seems logical.
I have talked to two companies concerning installing ceramic tile in my kitchen and both of them said they would only use PEI 4 or 5 in a kitchen or any floor for that matter. Maybe you would be lucky, but do you really want to take the chance! Some of the real experts can definitely give you first hand experience/information, I really wish you luck.
One other thing, you might want to check with the company to be absolutely sure that wear rating is there way of showing the PEI value. I thought this rating was supposed to be on the box, but I'm not really sure.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

AdamB5000

I have looked at the spec's and although it does not state that it is a PEI 4 or 5 I suspect it will be. I can almost guarantee that it is a porcelain as it's water obsorption rate is <0.1% and anything less than <0.5% is a good indicator that it's porcelain. Also, althought this may make no sence to anyone else except someone that sells tile, it comes in multiple sizes, very FEW almost NO ceramics come in multiple sizes anymore, we seem to only see porcelains like that. And based on the look of it, which sounds silly I know, but the glaze quality/colouring etc. all SCREAM porcelain to me, most things that look that good are not ceramic. It also noted in the spec.s light commercial use, which to me means it's not a full bodied porcelain, but it is a porcelain and will hold up to most commercial use. Your PEI may only be a 4 due to the colouring involved and nothing to do with the fact that it's a porcelain, but it may also be a 5, usually they can't get a full 5 on those darker colours, but without seeing it in person, it may not be as dark as I think and it could be a 5. How's that for alot of rambling and maybe's?? The store you bought it from would be able to tell you though if you call them up, it should be in their price giude, ours always are. 

IF you find out it is porcelain, then make sure you use a proper polymer modified mortar for it as the cheap mortar will not stick. A porcelain is harder and won't take in the water so you need the additives in the modified mortar to make it stick to your substrate. You will also have no choice but to use a wet saw to do your cutting, unless you've got a seriously excellent score and break cutter (in the 300-800 dollar range like a Sigma, you probably won't be able to score and snap it.)

What colour is the back of the tile? Is it putty coloured or whitish possibly with tiny little specs in it?


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Changeling

I have rarely seen a PEI on the box, most boxes actually don't even have the selling name on them, usually just alot of codes, we have a heck of a time sometimes when a customer calls in and asks if we have another box of something and they're reading their box not their invoice! Only for the sake that most of us have been there for so long we can usually decifer what it is they want. I have to think there's no law of standards for this industry on that kind of thing. (ie what they have to list and what they don't) You will also almost always find (as a side note) the size it says isn't always the size either. It could say 13x13" and it's actually 12.5x12.5 or 13.3x13.3 they seem to be allowed to do that. We always recommend that someone physically measures the tile if they need it for a specific project and it HAS to be say a 12x12 or something and a 12.5x12.5 won't do.


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

dochorn said:


> Changeling
> 
> I have rarely seen a PEI on the box, most boxes actually don't even have the selling name on them, usually just alot of codes, we have a heck of a time sometimes when a customer calls in and asks if we have another box of something and they're reading their box not their invoice! Only for the sake that most of us have been there for so long we can usually decifer what it is they want. I have to think there's no law of standards for this industry on that kind of thing. (ie what they have to list and what they don't) You will also almost always find (as a side note) the size it says isn't always the size either. It could say 13x13" and it's actually 12.5x12.5 or 13.3x13.3 they seem to be allowed to do that. We always recommend that someone physically measures the tile if they need it for a specific project and it HAS to be say a 12x12 or something and a 12.5x12.5 won't do.


 dochorn thanks for setting me straight, it has been close to a nightmare for me to try and get it all figured out, then I came to the conclusion (as you suggest/say) that it's not very well controlled with a set of strict code standards but more of a "what the manufacturer wants to call it. I was/am contemplating Congoleum Dura Ceramic 16" (or real tile). But when I read there web site it turned out to be 15 5/8 ", LOL. In my area they want practically the same for a Dura Ceramic installation as for a real tile installation. $1300.00 for DS and maybe 300 more for real tile depending on the cost of the tile.

AdamB5000, if you don't mind my asking what was the cost of that tile in the 12 " size if you happen to know (everglades)?


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Changeling, 

I hope I read you post a little wrong, you didn't mean that the cost of installing tile (the INSTALL part only) was going to change in cost depending on the tile cost did you? An installer should NEVER quote the job based on wether it's a 60 cent tile or a 9 buck one, I Hope you were talking SUPPLY and INSTALL which is why it would change because tile prices are all over the place. If it's not, and the installer wants more because your tile costs more, I'd tell him to stuff it and find another guy, that's just ripping someone off!


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Changling, 

Oh also remember your wastage rates go up when you get over a 14" tile, we do a standard break and waste of 10% on anything smaller, but 15-20 % on anything over 14". (depends on the size of the room, large room like an eat-in Kitchen with Island and sitting area etc. mostly center pieces, then less waste. Narrow hallways plus bathroom, plus closet, plus sunroom all equalling combined the same as that large kitchen I mentioned, we'd then do 20% as there's alot more OUTSIDE pieces than inside and more cuts to do and more chance of breakage and waste.)
Know that if you're paying someone to put them in they will charge more for...

1. large tile
2. multi size tile patterns
3. diagonal installation
4. porcelain tile over using ceramic tile
5. any natural stone will EASILY add another 4-5 bux a s/f (sealed and including the sealer) to a regular install price, it's just a whole lot more work, and more expensive materials.


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## JJC (Nov 8, 2005)

Adam B 500,
The Everglades PEI rating is 3. This is on the second page of the data sheet. Look at the sample pics and the color names, the number in parentheses is the PEI rating. Stone Peak Ceramic is one of the premier manufacturers of Porcelain tiles in this country.


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

dochorn, that is exactly how they were doing it.

Is it possible for you to give a "install" estimate price on the tile that Adam B5000 liked (above) in 12 " tile for a 100 sq ft area in a kitchen including under layment, glue, grout, whatever, but "NOT" including the tile? I mean a fair price.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Changeling, 

kinda, but not really....*lol*....I'm off on Mat. leave right now so I don't have my pricing available to me directly, however working from memory I can give you a ballpark of what we would charge. Also remember I'm not in the USA, I'm in Ontario, so our materials are usually a bit more expensive due to transport etc.

We mesh and cement base all our jobs, so we would staple down wire mesh and cement over it to level out the floor. Then second day we set the tiles and third day we grout it. You would probably be looking, without tile, about$1050 - $1100 to install including all materials and labour but no tiles. Tiles at a PEI 3 with that look in our store run around about $1.79-$2.25 per s/f so add on about another 2-300 for tiles, coming in at a total of about $1300-1400 total. Which I think is actually close to what you said, but nobody should charge more if the tile costs more, SURE you pay more TOTAL in the end because your tiles cost more, but if you're buying your own tile and he's putting it in, he should charge you the same labour per s/f if it's a 99 cent one or $6.00 one. (unless you change anything as I mentioned in the other post about extra expenses.) Using a porcelain over a ceramic will run you about 40-50 cents more per s/f for the labour and materials (not incl tile cost extra)


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Also know that if HE is buying the tiles AND installing them and he want to charge you more then he's REALLY trying to rip you off as most stores that sell ceramic/porcelain etc. give trade discounts and he'll already be getting a discounted price for your tile (which most contractors do not pass along as it's a way for them to make a little extra money in the job) so if ontop of that he then also wants moreto install a pricier tile, I'd be leary about him. We do a standard discount structure based on volume of sales, so say he got 15% off with us, he'll make 14 cents a s/f on a 99 cent tile, but he'll be making 98 cents on a $6.50 s/f tile, so he's already bring in more on the higher the price of the tile. Not saying in anyway that he wouldn't be a good installer, I just don't agree with his ethics.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

dochorn said:


> Using a porcelain over a ceramic will run you about 40-50 cents more per s/f for the labour and materials (not incl tile cost extra)


Why? I'm curious. Not to start an argument or call you out. If you'd like even to PM me with your reason, that would be fine (so as to NOT start further pricing debates).


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

dochorn said:


> Also know that if HE is buying the tiles AND installing them and he want to charge you more then he's REALLY trying to rip you off as most stores that sell ceramic/porcelain etc. give trade discounts and he'll already be getting a discounted price for your tile (which most contractors do not pass along as it's a way for them to make a little extra money in the job) so if ontop of that he then also wants moreto install a pricier tile, I'd be leary about him. We do a standard discount structure based on volume of sales, so say he got 15% off with us, he'll make 14 cents a s/f on a 99 cent tile, but he'll be making 98 cents on a $6.50 s/f tile, so he's already bring in more on the higher the price of the tile. Not saying in anyway that he wouldn't be a good installer, I just don't agree with his ethics.


I will do a version of this, sometimes. A lot of the time, I am the primary designer on a remodel. That takes time. I should get paid for my time, whether I'm physically working on your home or sitting at my desk designing your kitchen. IF I did 90% of a design (included tile layout), plus picked out the tile by visiting the store myself and bringing a sample to their home plus pick up the tile order (and materials), I feel I'm entitled to reimbursement for that. If I make 5-10%, I feel that's fair under those circumstances. However, if a HO does most of the work themselves, I pass my discount directly to them.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Angus242

No arguements needed, I don't take offence to any of it, it's not my store I work for someone so he sets out the pricing. However, that being said the reasoning behind it is labour and materials. We use a regular thin set mortar for ceramic tile jobs, because we mesh and cement all our floors we have essentially a "new" floor that we're tiling down on and you don't need the more expensive polymer modified mortars to make a ceramic stick a standard thinset around 14.00 / bag works just fine. (This mortar however is ONLY for new concrete, anyone using plywood or cement board or on old concrete (older than 2 years is our standard) you HAVE to use the more expensive one for proper adhesion.) When setting a porcelain, because they don't obsorb water, the regular mortars don't bond properly and you'll get tiles popping all over the place so we have to use a modified mortar that is more expensive around 28.00 bag(which is a difference right there of about 24 cents s/f). Also almost ALL porcelain tile needs to cut with a wet saw, this also takes MORE TIME, plus wear on the saw and saw blade which a single blade for our saws costs in around $100-$120/blade. When you cut with a wet saw, the tile gets wet ( in case of a porcelain only a bit of surface moisture) but it still needs to dry all the same or the tile doesn't bond to the mortar properly. It's mostly a matter of extra time needed to install a porcelain, these days labour is costing more than the materials themselves almost. Which, if you were the guy installing, you'd appreciate it to be that way, because you can't live on peanuts! Everything out there is costing more food/gas /housing etc. so their wages have to go up as well, and when they go up and our costs on our materials go up because the cost of processing and transport has gone up, our install prices have to match or we wouldn't still be in business. Everyone wants a job done cheap...but as we've always seen, when you get a job done cheap, you get a cheap job!


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Angus242

If course your time is worth getting paid for! You do more than most, as most clients do their own footwork, and then we write up a selection sheet for them and then the contractor comes in and picks it up/orders it and they almost always take the discount direct after having done no work on the design, our sales staff does all that, we do layouts and drawings etc. and then supply them to their contractor. Good for you!


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## nancy-max (Mar 2, 2008)

OK, please don't jump all over me for this question. What do you know about "SnapStone"? It's been around for a while. I need to install tile in a 10 x10 room in a beach rental unit. I am going to do it myself and need the easiest install. Floating engineered wood or Pergo won't work because of wet bathing suits and renters not caring about the floors. Can't afford an installer at this point or I'd get regular tile any suggestions? Thanks, Nancy


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Oh, I see! So actually, porcelain isn't *more* expensive....ceramic is just *cheaper* to install!
I use modified thinset and a wet saw for all my installs regardless of tiling material so that's the way I'd translate it.
Good information!

Thanks


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Angus242

*lol*, there's another take on it!! We normally score and snap ceramic installs our guys all have sigmas which can do a whole array of cuts without using a wet saw and they cut much quicker, they can probably do 4 or 5 score cuts to one saw cut! And as far as the mortar goes our base one IS modified, it's just not super modified, we carry three levels of modified, we term them to the public 1. ceramic on concrete, 2. any other interior installation and 3. exterior installation and slate. Then we also deal with white mortar which is modified in the middle range for marble and granite.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

nancy-max said:


> OK, please don't jump all over me for this question. What do you know about "SnapStone"? It's been around for a while. I need to install tile in a 10 x10 room in a beach rental unit. I am going to do it myself and need the easiest install. Floating engineered wood or Pergo won't work because of wet bathing suits and renters not caring about the floors. Can't afford an installer at this point or I'd get regular tile any suggestions? Thanks, Nancy


Pull up a chair and a (big) cup of coffee. Get ready to do some heavy reading. I'd like to say for the record, I find Bud Cline to be a very informative and knowledgeable source for all things tile. Keep that in mind when you read this. Lastly, this is a conversation among professionals and it goes off topic at times....but good reading none-the-less.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59417


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Nancy-max

Sorry I know nothing about "snap-stone". Hopfully some of the others on here may.

What kind of base is the floor you want to put it down on? Plywood, concrete? If it' conrete real tile isn't all that hard, mostly just time consuming, and I've had MANY a homeowner do it themselves even though they'd never touched a trowel or mortar before and had great success. If it's plywood or similar, you do need to create the proper base for tile and this needs more knowledge, not impossible by any means for a HO, but you'd need more time and info for sure.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Off topic....who's off topic??? *lmao* We should start a thread just for misc. gibberish!


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

dochorn said:


> Angus242
> 
> *lol*, there's another take on it!! We normally score and snap ceramic installs our guys all have sigmas which can do a whole array of cuts without using a wet saw and they cut much quicker, they can probably do 4 or 5 score cuts to one saw cut! And as far as the mortar goes our base one IS modified, it's just not super modified, we carry three levels of modified, we term them to the public 1. ceramic on concrete, 2. any other interior installation and 3. exterior installation and slate. Then we also deal with white mortar which is modified in the middle range for marble and granite.



OK, so I don't use modified ALL the time. Each situation is different. Typically, if it's a floor, I use Ditra. In that case I use Kerabond over and Kerabond/Keralastic under. For non-Ditra, I may use Ultraflex II for a backsplash or Ultraflex III for tiling over slab. Natural stone is per install requirements...white or grey as needed.

Yes, I agree a score/snap cutter is MUCH faster but I feel like all thumbs when I use one. I just stick to the trusty wet saw. :thumbsup:


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## nancy-max (Mar 2, 2008)

The subfloor is plywood. My husband thinks that it will be too difficult for us "me" to install regular tile. I'm looking for the easiest install that can be accomplished in the least amount of time. The room is a bedroom that renters have destroyed the carpet numerous times. I've even looked at carpet tiles, but those would have to be replaced after each renter.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Angus242

How much glass do you do? Our guys HATE installing glass tiles on backsplashes/bathroom walls! It's become such a trend up her we're doing them weekly now. Is it the same down there?


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## nancy-max (Mar 2, 2008)

Angus242, I read the John Bridge professional site yesterday. I read it all the way through. It was quite entertaining, but had no concrete information about SnapStone. No one on the site had personally used it. I keep googling trying to find information about it's success rate, but can't find any. Is there any one out there who has used this product???????


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Yep. Glass is trendy. However, I don't install a lot of it. Lots of people interested in it UNTIL they see the price. It can easily be $60/sq ft and go up from there. Once price comes into play, that changes things. I am now seeing it more for accent purposes or listellos. I personally have not done a 100% glass back splash and can see how it would be time consuming. I suppose it really matters if the glass is see-through or not. Obviously, see-through glass need to have a perfect thinset layer so as not to see trowel marks. As with a lot of tiling materials, I think it has it's place. I think it is best used in moderation. As an accent row it can be really stunning. As 100% field, it gets too trendy and I start thinking 1978 all over again!


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

nancy-max said:


> Angus242, I read the John Bridge professional site yesterday. I read it all the way through. It was quite entertaining, but had no concrete information about SnapStone. No one on the site had personally used it. I keep googling trying to find information about it's success rate, but can't find any. Is there any one out there who has used this product???????


Nancy,

I thought the very first post was informative enough. Snapstone, or similar products are relatively new to the market and therefore, and not yet tried and true. You will be hard pressed to find concrete (no pun intended) information about the longevity of these products just yet. 
IMHO, there is no REPLACEMENT for ceramic tile. It is just an additional flooring option. As dochorn already suggested maybe a DIY tile project is in your future? If not, then you are at the mercy of the relatively little info about floating tile floors. 
To be honest, I thought Bud's comments on Snapstone were an endorsement from a very qualified individual. I understand your concern but you need to realize what you're inquiring about. You are kind of stuck....it's either a DIY tile install or using a new product that's not time tested. I'll be the first to say that tiling is not easy. However, it's most certainly not rocket science either. There is so much information on the internet, if you can follow instructions, you most certain CAN install ceramic tile yourself. Just be aware that preparation and choice of installation materials are very important. Follow ALL manufacturers directions and you should be fine.
Either that or you need to start upping your rent to include new carpet each year!


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry for the late response, fellas. I forgot about this over the weekend.

I hope the PEI 3 rating is well enough. It's for my bathroom, but I'm sure it'll see no stress beyond some water, mats, bare feet and maybe a few wet towels.  

As far as price, I kind of went into this blind, so I really don't know if I over or under paid. I was happy that I bought it at a local shop (tile only) and not a big retailer. I also like that it's US made. Makes me feel that much better.  

Anyway!, I think I was originally quoted around $5/sq.ft. My bathroom is 8.5x8.5 minus the shower/tub unit. I think I purchased 64 or 72 sq.ft. plus the grout plus the mastic. (btw, I'll double check the mastic to be sure it's made for porcelain and I'll have to read the other responses as I'm at work and have a lot to catch up on. They recommended each item. I took their word.). So with the tile (64-72 sq.ft.), grout, mastic and spacers, I think it ran me about $323. 

Thanks for the tip on the saw, too. I'll rent one for the weekend. 

Thanks again for the information. Oh yeah, I'll double check the back of my tile to see how it looks. I just know it's rough and has a cross hatch/square layout. Let me know if you guys have any more Q's.



I just checked and the mastic is 'full flex latex thinset mortar.' I'm putting the tile on a cement slab and this is what the tile people suggested. I hope they're right! (I think it said latex.. maybe it said polymer... I'll eventually double check)


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

AdamB5000

You do have MORTAR don't you? MASTIC is whitish grey glue that is premade and should really only be used on a kitchen backplash REGARDLESS of the fact that the container says floor and wall adhesive! If you read closely it actually says not to be used on a floor with tiles larger than 6"x6". I hope you just used the wrong word and you actually have mortar. It will be in a bag and it's powder and you need to mix it with water. If they sold you PREMADE crap, take it back and get the powder form. Premade crap is just that, crap! Mortar especially for the floor should be made as you need it, not premade. And I hope most of all they didn't try to advise you on using mastic (glue) on your floor! (and yes your mortar should be polymer modified, and should have cost around 15-25 bux for the 50lb bag which would do your whole job), and you should be fine with a 4 kg bag/bucket of grout as long as you're using about a 3/16" spacer which is the most common size for floors at our place (powder again, NOT premade!). I am NOT a fan of ANYTHING premade, think about it, plastic breathes, so the curing of the product has already started before you've even brought it home from the store!


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry for the scare!! It's not mastic. :no: It is certainly a powder mortar.

It does not say polymer. It says "Full Flex Latex Modified Thin Set Mortar." I could read the fine print, but polymer was not printed in text large enough to see at a glance. 

My grout is also a powder.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

AdamB5000

It'll be fine, you're going on concrete you said and it is modified, glad to hear it's a powder!

And just a note of correction that I didn't catch on your last posting.....I personally....am not a fella!!! But I'll take the sorry all the same for not replying quicker!! *lol*


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

Well shoot. In all my years on the internet, you're the first to call me out on that. :biggrin:

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to help, tiger. :laughing:


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

AdamB5000

Well, glad I didn't offend! I'm always second guessed because I'm female at my work, and I tend to probably take things more personally than I should, always thinking people only think MEN can know anything about construction! 

I've actually had customers ask me to speak to a "guy" please, not knowing I know more then that "guy" because the only guy on staff at the moment is our warehouse guy! *lol* I just humour them and get him anyways! (he then sends them back to me when he doesn't know the answers, the looks on some of their faces are priceless!!)


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

dochorn said:


> AdamB5000
> 
> Well, glad I didn't offend! I'm always second guessed because I'm female at my work, and I tend to probably take things more personally than I should, always thinking people only think MEN can know anything about construction!
> 
> I've actually had customers ask me to speak to a "guy" please, not knowing I know more then that "guy" because the only guy on staff at the moment is our warehouse guy! *lol* I just humour them and get him anyways! (he then sends them back to me when he doesn't know the answers, the looks on some of their faces are priceless!!)


dochorn, you're awesome, I feel like such a fool for assuming you were a man. I think it was the name, I thought you were like "Doctor Horn" and maybe this was a hobby. I sincerely apologize!
However when you started setting "everyone straight" I realized something here is not right, this can't be a doctor that does tile work for a hobby, this is the "most" informed and knowledgeable person I have ever talked to or read responses from since I have been investigating the finishing of my kitchen floor. You answered everyone in an informative way without once making them feel foolish like some of the participants have done. Once again I apologize, it won't happen again, I hope.

This kitchen floor was starting to get out of hand since I had no idea and couldn't get a decent answer on the work to be performed till you jumped to the rescue.
I went to the floor dealer today and told him I wanted a firm price in writing on installing Congoleum Dura Ceramic in my kitchen, he then stated it was going to cost me $1356.00 for the complete in installation. This tile runs about 3 to $4.00 around here per sq ft. I floor is right at 100 sq ft, so that = $400.00 for the Dura Ceramic tile and $956.00 for installation. This is the same guy who started talking $800.00 or so in the beginning. It's not real tile, it's more like vinyl with the companies grout that you can install to look like real tile. We had a few words and he will not be doing any work for me I am happy to say. He actually became appalled and told me it was going to take his two tile installers over half a day to complete the job!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you came along and told the truth about things and straightened me and others out.
For the money they were asking I can get the real thing (ceramic/porcelain) installed like AdamB500 is doing in his bathroom with a heck of a lot more to choose from.

When you talked about things being higher in Canada you were definitely not kidding, I used to go up there fishing and things were a lot higher than in the states but the US learns fast and is catching up faster then you would believe. Price differences here are going through the roof in "everything". 
I am also looking into getting/finding an installer for new windows and getting replies that are utterly ridiculous, but if people are uninformed they have the habit of listening to the wrong people.

Take care and the best of luck with the delivery, if you're stuck for a name I have a real name you can use, LOL. If you ever need help with anything in the states just ask and I'll see what I can do.

Changeling


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

dochorn, I tried to send you a private message but it seems I need to make 20 posts before I can send someone a PM. When I get 20 I'll let you know what I had on my mind.
Changeling


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

Changling, 

Oh, not to worry, actually my hubby set this I.D. up, but I don't think he's used it yet! *lol* I've been off for 10 months now, I actually have to go back to work in 2 months....*YUCK*!! But this site has been good, atleast it reminds me that baby brain hasn't taken over everything and I still know all the things I learned about tile, it may actually be nice to get back to work and talk with people again!! I love helping out.

We're getting windows done too....and yup....they're pricey!!! It's our second storey though and there's NO WAY we're going to do them!


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

I thought you were making a general joke, doch. I had no idea you were a lady. I should watch my mouth before I go around shouting "fella."  

Anyway, thanks again and as long as I don't forget, I'll post before, mid-project (demo) and after shots of my finished product. Should be exciting (for me, anyway!).


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## Changeling (Apr 28, 2008)

dochorn, it has been my pleasure, you are not only the most informed tile person ever to help anyone here but you have an incredible way of saying things to get your understanding across. I really think you should consider writing a book on tile installation or any other subject you are familiar with because of your abilities in communication, I'm not trying to be flattering, I'm dead serious! You are that good.

I'm going to try and find a good tile installer and get a reasonable but honest price on installing the real thing, but I have a feeling it is going to take a while in my area. this morning an installer came buy with his interpreter because he didn't speak English (Mexican). he didn't measure anything, ask to see the basement to check subfloor and floor joists. He conversed with the interpreter and then she told me he wanted about $3000,00 for the labor if I supplied the tile installation materials and tool rentals. I was so stunned I just started laughing (100 sq ft.). the interpreter turned solid red, he just smiled, I opened the door and said by! 

I checked out every window available in my area and found out a lot. If you are able to get Simonton in your area definitely check them out. I'm Looking for an installer now. Also have to have my deck top refinished with either new wood are synthetics, haven't came to a conclusion on that yet.


Take care, Changeling.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

WHOO HOO....dochorn, you're the man!!!! Oh, wait. No you're not. 

Now just tell me where to get Ditraset locally and you will be the....um, eh...wo-man!!!!! :thumbup:


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

AdamB5000 said:


> I thought you were making a general joke, doch. I had no idea you were a lady. I should watch my mouth before I go around shouting "fella."
> 
> Anyway, thanks again and as long as I don't forget, I'll post before, mid-project (demo) and after shots of my finished product. Should be exciting (for me, anyway!).


 
No worries....really...if I can take 8 plus years of old Italian men (and sometimes women even) not believing a word I say because I'm female and they humour me and listen and then go ask one of our guys the exact SAME questions, I can handle the odd "fella" comment without breaking out in tears!! *lol* I remember taking it so personally when I first started, now I just think "to hell with ya then, you can wait an HOUR for a MAN to help you" (since we only have one, there's 5 females and one male in our shop, how the times have changed, I was the first female on the floor, now there's 5 of us....poor Tom, I can only imagine how he feels now!! *lol*) anyways, off topic as us females can do so easily....*s*

ALL projects are exciting, I've done before during and after on all our projects so far. It's great to see where you came from and what you accomplished on your own! I think it empowers you to want to do more and as you learn from each project they all just get better and better with each one!


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

75% of the suppliers I deal with are female. They are completely knowledgeable and make my job easy! My suppliers are a very good part of why I'm successful. I don't want to start some big debate here. I'm just talking about _my _experience but males tend to be money makers while females tend to be problem solvers. 
Good for you, dochorn!


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## MattCoops (Jan 10, 2007)

I think women tend to be better sales reps is cause they concern themselves more with the details.


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## dochorn (Apr 30, 2008)

angus242 said:


> 75% of the suppliers I deal with are female. They are completely knowledgeable and make my job easy! My suppliers are a very good part of why I'm successful. I don't want to start some big debate here. I'm just talking about _my _experience but males tend to be money makers while females tend to be problem solvers.
> Good for you, dochorn!


I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your point of "males tend to be money makers while females tend to be prolem solvers"? 

If you're doing your job right and you work in customer service male or female you'll be doing both. Your job in a service career is to make money for the place you work for AND make customers happy, giving them the help and information they need, which is why we have a large amount of repeat business at our store, because we offer service, man and woman alike. 

I'm not solely money minded no, but I don't waste anymore time explaining something than I have to and I do sell things and most times even sell more things while explaining because I take the time to go over all the steps and make sure they have EVERYTHING before they're out the door and they realise they forgot something and decide 'oh, I'll not go back, I'll just pick it up at Home Depot instead' we don't want to loose business that way, plus in the end it's less hassel for them as they can do a one stop shop and get right to their project instead of wasting their day running around.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Oh geez. I, in no way, meant that as offensive to you or any other female. Actually, it was more of a compliment.
As Matt said, it has to do with the details. It also has just been in _my_ experience. I can just tell the difference when I talk with my cabinet suppliers. No matter who I talk with, I get what I need and I'm happy. But when I talk with my female rep, she seems more to make sure EVERYTHING is taken care of whereas the male rep gives me exactly what I ask for. My male rep would never call after the fact to see how things are going yet the female one calls at multiple times after my order. I don't feel like he gives me less service, I'm just saying there is a definite difference in the way they handle me. 
I'm also not saying one way is better or worse than the other. Just what I have seen over the years. I personally try to never let dollar signs lead me around but there are definitely people that do (that I know personally) and they happen to be males. 
I do apologize if I ruffled any feathers. I surely didn't mean to.


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## julio333 (May 14, 2008)

I think that was a great apology. I did not think you meant any harm either.


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## AdamB5000 (Mar 24, 2008)

This house is a slow process for me, but I have the tile grouted. This picture was taken pre-final wipedown. It's all clean looking now.  I'm hoping the grout darkens. It's supposed to be a medium/dark gray, according to the sample from the tile place. It's really a light gray right now.

I can't get into too much detail now as I'm at work, but if anyone was interested, this is how it turned out.


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