# Convince me to run solid or stranded speaker wire.



## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I have never used nor seen anyone use solid speaker wire on a large scale.

On the other hand, I have run miles of strand wire and have never had any issues. Most modern audio devices and speakers accept banana style connectors. Strand wire, properly installed in a banana plug makes a solid connection. All the speakers in my A/V system is connected in this matter and I have never had any issues.


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## u3b3rg33k (Jul 17, 2018)

I don't see why either one would be a problem from a performance/sound quality standpoint. 12ga speaker wire is much easier to handle if it's stranded than solid.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

I've never run solid and never had a problem...actually, I've never seen solid run.

(And probably having nothing to do with your application, but I think I've read or heard that electrical current is primarily carried on the surface of wire. If so, it would seem to me that stranded wire would likely be a better conductor.... but I've never really heard any debate to that point.)

For instance, I wonder the actual copper content in Romex 12 and in Thhn 12 guage.... do you think they are the same... or is one less than the other and a better conductor.

IDK... just curious


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I've never run solid and never had a problem...actually, I've never seen solid run.
> 
> (And probably having nothing to do with your application, but I think I've read or heard that electrical current is primarily carried on the surface of wire. If so, it would seem to me that stranded wire would likely be a better conductor.... but I've never really heard any debate to that point.)
> 
> ...



'Skin effect' - ac only. That's why on electrical transmission lines you will often see multiple conductors for each phase.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

It depends on frequency. As lenaitch said, it's skin effect. The higher the frequency the shallower it'll passing current will be. 

I'm sure audiophiles will say something about stranded, but I'd be very unconvinced that anyone could actually hear the difference..... 

Cheers!


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

supers05 said:


> It depends on frequency. As lenaitch said, it's skin effect. The higher the frequency the shallower it'll passing current will be.
> 
> *I'm sure audiophiles will say something about stranded, but I'd be very unconvinced that anyone could actually hear the difference..... *
> 
> Cheers!



Yup....


It's the same rubbish as "monster cables" or "gold plated rca jacks". It all looks wonderful and great on paper and it even makes sense. In practice however, and at the audio frequencies dealt with... it's a ridiculous waste of time worrying about such things.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

chadhyett said:


> I'm running about 500 feet next week. I have found a lot on both sides of the argument, but nothing really definitive to convince me one way or the other. A lot of people seem to say that solid wire is better. Any thoughts?



Stranded wire works better in most mechanical speaker connector systems (ie; push spring type connectors). It's also less likely to break when moving your receiver in/out of the shelf to make connections and adjustments. Solid just doesn't stand up too well when it has to flex repeatedly.


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## u3b3rg33k (Jul 17, 2018)

skin effect only works on the exterior of the cable (even with stranded), unless you're using litz wire (individually insulated conductors). then each conductor's skin is in play.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

u3b3rg33k said:


> skin effect only works on the exterior of the cable (even with stranded), unless you're using litz wire (individually insulated conductors). then each conductor's skin is in play.


Technically the current passes up to a certain depth, not just the surface, dependent on frequency

Cheers!


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Stranded and twisted. It's done for a reason.


Yes, it will make a difference.


End of story.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

ktkelly said:


> Stranded and twisted. It's done for a reason.
> 
> Yes, it will make a difference.
> 
> ...


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## u3b3rg33k (Jul 17, 2018)

ktkelly said:


> Stranded and twisted. It's done for a reason.
> 
> 
> Yes, it will make a difference.
> ...


SOO wire has more twist in it than most audio cable does 

I'd be much more concerned about that on the input side though.


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## Gr8 (Dec 11, 2018)

Whats the manufacture suggest you use?


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## chadhyett (Dec 4, 2018)

Manufacturer only recommends a gauge of wire based on length or run.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Gr8 said:


> Whats the manufacture suggest you use?



Speaker manufacturers rarely suggest, and most amplifier manufacturers do likewise, although some might.



Why twisted wire? 



Think of data wire (cat5, 5e, 6, 7). It helps prevent cross communication.



Why multi-strand?


As previously mentioned, there is this thing called "skin effect". Yes, it IS real.




For me, it was always 185 strand count twisted 14ga, and 12ga that kept my AV business highly successful for 40+ years. Delivering a quality system was what my company was all about.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> Speaker manufacturers rarely suggest, and most amplifier manufacturers do likewise, although some might.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Baloney. Most of this audiophile stuff is just plain malarkey designed to rob you of your hard earned money.


Skin effect isn't an issue at the consumer audio level. Radio Engineers who work with higher frequencies need to worry about skin effect. Indeed the cable running to your tv has a solid strand inside to reduce skin effect because it's operating at the Mhz frequency range, but at the consumer audio level it amounts to little more than snake oil.




> *Hugo:* *Can you list some of the common pseudoscience and misconceptions?*
> *Gene:* _One of the biggest misconceptions exotic cable vendors like to perpetuate is a problem with “skin effect”. Simply put, skin effect is a measure of how the resistance and inductance changes in a cable as a function of frequency. As frequency goes up, the skin depth decreases along the conductor, so in a sense the conductor becomes less conductive at those frequencies since the higher frequency currents are mostly distributed towards the surface of the conductor. The reality of the situation is that even common 12 AWG speaker wire still has VERY low resistance at almost 1/2 a decade (100kHz) than the highest frequency humans can hear (20kHz). Skin effect is a real problem RF Engineers deal with all the time. Although it’s measurable at audio frequencies, it’s mostly negligible, hence why there is so little written about it from peer-reviewed sources when dealing with audio._
> 
> _So, companies come up with elaborate ways of allegedly reducing the “skin effect” problem. We’ve measured many of these so called “skin effect” free cables and, the reality is, many of__ them have higher __DC resistance right off the bat because they use high gauge conductors. So even though they can maintain a more linear frequency dependent resistance and inductance profile as frequency goes up, they still have HIGHER resistance than ordinary 12 AWG speaker cable even up to 100kHz. You can see this in some of our measured data in Speaker Cable Face Off I and Speaker Cable Face Off II.
> ...


https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects


As for twisted wire... it sure won't hurt, but it's not required of you're not bundling wires together.


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## mahjohn (Feb 27, 2006)

Stranded and twisted over solid and straight. 

Stranded cable, as it's easier to pull and work with than straight, however, when stripping at the ends, there is a tendency to over cut the cladding and nip into the strands if you're not careful. Straight cable is stiffer to work with, but this is only noticeable when you're pulling 8+ reels of cable.

The twisting is critically important as it cuts down on cross-talk which occurs when you have a high level signal run in parallel in straight lines next to a low level signal. If you use straight cable, you risk introducing cross-talk, whereas it eliminates this in twisted cabling, which is why in networking, shielded/twisted cables are run anywhere interference may be an issue.

Also, anytime you run cable, do not run close to fluorescent lights, and if you need to cross one, cross at 90deg with as much distance between the light and cabling as possible.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

mahjohn said:


> Stranded and twisted over solid and straight.
> 
> Stranded cable, as it's easier to pull and work with than straight, however, when stripping at the ends, there is a tendency to over cut the cladding and nip into the strands if you're not careful. Straight cable is stiffer to work with, but this is only noticeable when you're pulling 8+ reels of cable.
> 
> ...



You can't get cross talk to or from low level audio wiring because it's shielded. You CAN get cross talk from long runs of high level line though if they're in close proximity with one another.



Network wiring (cat5, 6, etc) is indeed twisted, and that's because you have long runs of wire bundled together in a single sheathing.




> _Electromagnetic pickup is rarely a concern with speaker cables. However, if you live in close proximity to HAM radio tower, then there is no harm in using twisted pair or shielded twisted pair speaker cables to eliminate the chance of EMI noise pickup. Twisted pair cable is beneficial when you're parallel running multiple sets of speaker cables in close proximity to reduce crosstalk or mutual coupling though we've only heard/measured such phenomenon when the amplifier end of one speaker and its associated cable was left unterminated (disconnected) to the amplifier while the adjacent speaker cable was transmitting a large signal to power another speaker. The audio signal transmitting from the powered speaker cross coupled over to the disconnected speaker cable and actually drove the attached speaker of that cable to audible levels sitting 15 feet away from the speaker! _


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Bob, what do you consider high level and low level?


Line level is what?
Speaker level is what?


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> Bob, what do you consider high level and low level?
> 
> 
> Line level is what?
> Speaker level is what?



I was using the term "low level" because the poster was.


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## Deja-vue (Mar 24, 2013)

LOL, solid Speaker wire.
I use this Brand here:

https://smile.amazon.com/Monoprice-...544738301&sr=1-30&keywords=Speaker+cable&th=1

Got some good results with it.
I solder the Ends, seal them up, then use gold plated connectors.
Cheers,


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Bob Sanders said:


> I was using the term "low level" because the poster was.





Okay. 



I'm not going to read all through the tread, but it was said by you "You can't get cross talk to or from low level audio wiring because it's shielded. You CAN get cross talk from long runs of high level line though if they're in close proximity with one another.".




Wrong terminology, but at least you're going in the right direction, or I think you are.


Line level IS shielded. Line level being typically being the wiring that connects a analog source such as a CD player to the amplifier.


Speaker level (apparently the low level term being tossed around) is not typically shielded, although it can be, and unless it a REALLY long run it will not crosstalk with other speaker level lines, but will crosstalk with low voltage electrical lines (120v), high voltage electrica (220v and above) if run parallel (speaker level WILL pick up a 60 cycle hum).


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I'm well aware of the terminology, thank you. I have been building audio systems for 45 years now. I referred to it as low and high because I did not want to confuse the poster I quoted. Clearly though, that is beyond your scope of understanding.


BTW...."low voltage" is not 120 volts in the US. The NEC defines "low voltage" as anything between 0 and 49 volts.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Referring to something with incorrect terminology doesn't confuse the issue?


You really do think differently.




BTW: Regardless of what you cite in the NEC (which is incorrect as well), in many states anything below 120v IS considered low voltage for licensing requirements (it varies by state). As an example, in NC, an alarm company is required to carry a low voltage electrical license (specified as below 120v). 





First thing found by Google pertaining to the code, "The _NEC_ does not specifically _define low voltage."._


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> BTW: Regardless of what you cite in the NEC (which is incorrect as well), in many states anything below 120v IS considered low voltage for licensing requirements (it varies by state). As an example, in NC, an alarm company is required to carry a low voltage electrical license (specified as below 120v).


\ Most states that I know of follow the NEC :wink2:







> First thing found by Google pertaining to the code, "The _NEC_ does not specifically _define low voltage."._





> In electrical power _distribution_, the United States 2005 National Electrical Code (NEC) defines *low (distribution system) voltage* as 0 to 49 volts. Low distribution system voltage is covered by Article 725 of this code.
> The NFPA standard 79 article 6.4.1.1 defines _distribution_ protected extralow voltage (PELV) as nominal voltage of 30 Vrms or 60 VDC ripple free for dry locations and 6 Vrms or 15 VDC in all other cases.


:wink2:


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> Referring to something with incorrect terminology doesn't confuse the issue?
> _._


 What confuses the issue is when the terminology you use does not match that of the person you are presently speaking to. If I'm speaking to someone who knows the proper terminology THEN I will use it... as in the following example:







https://www.wranglerforum.com/f274/...on-vs-aftermarket-2054393-2.html#post32817082


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

You're in Canada and you know more about the NEC in the US, than those in the US do?


Go back to drinking your Moosehead. :biggrin2:


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## moosehaed (Jul 30, 2018)

ktkelly said:


> You're in Canada and you know more about the NEC in the US, than those in the US do?
> 
> 
> Go back to drinking your Moosehead. :biggrin2:


Hey, I like Moosehead and I live on the US.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## chadhyett (Dec 4, 2018)

OP here. I think I’ll have a Moosehead while I run my stranded cable.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> You're in Canada and you know more about the NEC in the US, than those in the US do?



Apparently.... yes.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

Bob Sanders said:


> Apparently.... yes.





There is something as too much Moosehead. Makes you delusional.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

ktkelly said:


> There is something as too much Moosehead. Makes you delusional.



Are you seriously still going on with this??


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