# New washer trips New GFCI circuit



## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi All,
Currently in the midst of a laundry room renovation, and converting to a compact washer and heat pump dryer.

There are two dedicated 110V 20Amp circuits. 

1. New 20 Amp circuit protected by GFCI breaker (GE THQL)
2. Existing 20Amp circuit albeit with a NEW Leviton 20 Amp GFCI outlet.

Here is what happens:

A. Run washer on circuit 1 and it trips the breaker after a few minutes
B. Run washer on circuit 2 and it trips the outlet after a few minutes
C. Run washer via extension cord to 10 year old garage GFCI outlet and it works

Dryer has no issue with circuits 1 and 2.

Is there such a thing as a too sensitive GFCI or is that an urban myth?

I checked the wring of the breaker and it is correct and the screws are tight.

I do have a repair tech scheduled to look at the washer, but given that it works via the garage circuit I am nt sure what they will be able to find.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Is it a GFCI or AFCI breaker?
Is it tripping on AFCI or overload?


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

The time delay suggests that it is a over current situation,
Check the manufactures web site, most breakers have some sort of indicator of what is tripping the breaker.


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

joed said:


> Is it a GFCI or AFCI breaker?
> Is it tripping on AFCI or overload?


It is a GFCI breaker, and appears to be tripping due to GF not overload. When plugged into the GFCI outlet the outlet trip but not the conventional 20 amp breaker.


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

dmxtothemax said:


> The time delay suggests that it is a over current situation,
> Check the manufactures web site, most breakers have some sort of indicator of what is tripping the breaker.


Thanks I will test this tomorrow, here is the GE Trouble shooting info:


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

GFIs do not trip due to overloads.


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## Let it Snow (Feb 23, 2019)

Let me guess, Samsung Appliance


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Let it Snow said:


> Let me guess, Samsung Appliance


 Sorry no Miele


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

Check the owners manual for that machine. It may recommend not connecting the machine to a GFCI or AFCI protected circuit. Even if it doesn't and there is a solid state digital readout on the beast, call the manufacturers help line and discuss the problem with them. The problem isn't new, GFCI and AFCI don't play well on certain equipment circuits. Normally to get a variance from an inspector, it must be for a dedicated circuit only. High inductive loads, like motors, and digital circuits that alter the waveform are the culprits that sometimes fool those smart breakers.

SD2


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

surferdude2 said:


> Check the owners manual for that machine. It may recommend not connecting the machine to a GFCI or AFCI protected circuit.
> SD2


Thanks SD. I did call the tech support line and they said that the washer is/should be compatible with a GFCI circuit. They are sending a tech the end of next week to check it out.

I replaced the gcfi outlet today with a LEGRAND and it trips immediately as soon as the water valve opens. 

So it trips a GE gfci breaker, a Leviton gfci outlet, and a Pass and Seymour LEGRAND outlet. It does not (after 5 loads at) trip an 10 year old gfci outlet.

When I went for the permit the inspector said that I need a 20 amp gfci circuit for the washer. It is a dedicated circuit and the reason I used a breaker for this is that the receptacle is behind the machine under the counter. Do you think I might be able to get a waiver and just use a dedicated non protected circuit? 

I would need some assurance from Miele that the washer is safe to run on such a circuit and then I would need to convince the local official.


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

I think it will be fixable, especially that you now have some valuable info to pass along to the tech coming to look at it. Not that he couldn't find it without your tip about the water valve circuitry being the prime suspect, but you will make it easier for him.

ps, Better check that extension cord that you use when it doesn't trip the GFCI... it may have a broken ground wire. At the very least, don't touch that washer while it's running on that cord, especially with the other available grounds nearby that can make you part of a circuit if touching the machine and one of them.

Sd2


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

surferdude2 said:


> I think it will be fixable...
> 
> ps, Better check that extension cord that you use when it doesn't trip the GFCI... it may have a broken ground wire.
> 
> Sd2


Thanks I also hope for a fix, it really is a good washer for what I can tell. One of my tests was to use the extension cord to connect to a NEW gfci just to rule out the cord, and it too tripped immediately.

jim


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

It should be an easy fix for a qualified tech. If he has a hi-pot tester, a megger or even a sensitive ohmmeter, that ground fault will show up and since a washing machine uses all plug-in components, it's a matter of unplugging things until the fault reading disappears. As is said, even a cave man could do it! :biggrin2:

Sd2


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks again, I hope it is just that easy. I’ll update the thread with results.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

joabraun said:


> Thanks again, I hope it is just that easy. I’ll update the thread with results.


Does the old GFCI work?

Some older ones will not trip and still allow current to flow.


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Does the old GFCI work?
> 
> Some older ones will not trip and still allow current to flow.


Yes, it has not tripped a 10 year old gfci, yet.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

...oh boy...more gfci problems...
yes, motors are a problem with gfci circuits, but in this case, I'm suspecting something else. If this is a hi-tech device, it'll need low voltage to run the electronics...these days that's done with switching power supplies. Unfortunately, these supplies have capacitors that shunt the switching noise to ground which creates the leak path and trips gfci circuits. It's not a "fault", it's just how they work.
And yes, there can be differences between breakers. There is a maximum trip time specified, but no minimum...so some can be more sensitive than others...
Note that the gfci breaker will protect you IF the ground wire for the device is broken or disconnected. If the ground wire is good, an AC short to the case will cause the circuit breaker to trip...
If it is a switching power supply issue, the only way around it that I'm aware of is to clip out the input filter capacitors. It may radiate more noise, but I suspect there are no sensitive devices nearby...


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

zhawkeye said:


> .
> If it is a switching power supply issue, the only way around it that I'm aware of is to clip out the input filter capacitors. It may radiate more noise, but I suspect there are no sensitive devices nearby...


I would hope that the engineers that designed this would have taken all this into account, and that it is an issue with just this particular machine. We will see...


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## Navane1 (May 4, 2017)

Shared neutrals from 2 circuits is a no-no for GFI’s. I looked, but maybe this was already covered. The timing of the GFI tripping and the use of the other circuit would have to be investigated. It would be a common occurrence for 2 circuits to have neutrals tied together in at least 1 box.


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## fa_f3_20 (Dec 30, 2011)

It's a combo unit, with the dryer on top of the washer? Make sure the dryer's frame ground is not strapped to the neutral.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

Forgive my ignorance (or outdated knowledge) on this subject, but unless there's a sink or tub within 6' of the outlet, it doesn't require a GCFI, does it? If an outlet would require a GCFI, can the unit be wired directly so that it doesn't need one?


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Navane1 said:


> Shared neutrals from 2 circuits is a no-no for GFI’s.


Not the case two circuits

1. 20AMP GFCI breaker individual branch circuit servicing just the washer. It is behind the washer and under the counter.
2. 20AMP GFCI outlet with 1 additional receptacle added to the load side


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

fa_f3_20 said:


> It's a combo unit, with the dryer on top of the washer? Make sure the dryer's frame ground is not strapped to the neutral.


Thanks for the input but they are side by side units.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

the fact that it takes several minutes to trip indicates "something"...
it'll fill with water first...does it trip when the motor attempts to start running?


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

HotRodx10 said:


> Forgive my ignorance (or outdated knowledge) on this subject, but unless there's a sink or tub within 6' of the outlet, it doesn't require a GCFI, does it? If an outlet would require a GCFI, can the unit be wired directly so that it doesn't need one?


Thanks for the input. there is a sink and it is within 6 ft of the outlets. The outlet dedicated to the washer is under the countertop and inaccessible once the washer is in place.

Looking at the 2005 code online 210.8(7) (and if I am reading it correctly) there is no exception to using a GFCI that would allow using a cord and plug connection for an appliance. There is such an exception for garages and basements.


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

zhawkeye said:


> the fact that it takes several minutes to trip indicates "something"...
> it'll fill with water first...does it trip when the motor attempts to start running?


Depending on the GFCI this is what happens:

1. NEW Pass&Seymour LEGRAND GFCI outlet. Trips immediately as soon as the water valve opens at the start of the cycle. Not sure if this coincides with the motor running. The first thing the machine seems to do is gently turn the drum back and forth.

2. NEW GE Breaker - Trips intermittently, I have not narrowed it down to what part of the cycle, but I believe it was the final rinse.

3. NEW Leviton GFCI Outlet - Trips intermittently.

4. OLD GFCI outlet - hasn't tripped in 6-7 loads


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> there is no exception to using a GFCI that would allow using a cord and plug connection for an appliance.



I understood that it would be exempt from the GCFI requirement if it is wired directly, e.g. there is no outlet to plug anything else in. 

Maybe someone with more knowledge of the electrical code can expound on or correct me on that notion?


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## BRodgers (Jan 12, 2015)

joabraun said:


> Depending on the GFCI this is what happens:
> 
> 1. NEW Pass&Seymour LEGRAND GFCI outlet. Trips immediately as soon as the water valve opens at the start of the cycle. Not sure if this coincides with the motor running. The first thing the machine seems to do is gently turn the drum back and forth.
> 
> ...



I suspect that the old GFCI receptacle is not longer providing ground fault protection and is just acting like a standard receptacle as jbfan alluded to. Based on your tests with different brands and receptacle vs breaker, I would replace that old GFCI receptacle for your's and your family's safety.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

ok...your test of different breakers shows that sensitivity differs (as i noted in a previous post).
i'm guessing the tech hasn't been by yet?
i'm still suspecting power supply leakage from filter caps to ground...but the tech will have to experiment with this. if the power supply gets ground just through the mounting screws, simply removing them and running the washer will test this theory. if it also has a ground wire at it's input, this would also need to be disconnected. note that this shouldn't remove the ground from the washer chassis, only the power supply.


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## Dave Ruth (Jul 25, 2019)

joabraun said:


> 4. OLD GFCI outlet - hasn't tripped in 6-7 loads


How do you know old GFCI receptacle is working correctly?


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

if it has a test botton, use it. it shunts enough of the current to ground to trip the gfci circuitry. if it doesn't trip, it may be faulty or the ground to the outlet may be missing...


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

BRodgers said:


> I suspect that the old GFCI receptacle is not longer providing ground fault protection and is just acting like a standard receptacle as jbfan alluded to. Based on your tests with different brands and receptacle vs breaker, I would replace that old GFCI receptacle for your's and your family's safety.


Thanks for the comment. I have tested it with a handheld gfci tester and it trips and no voltage is present on the terminals. Outside of looking for a volunteer willing to take a bath with a toaster, what is a definitive test?


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

if it'll trip, the circuitry is working and a ground is present...i suspect it isn't as sensitive as the newer outlets.
i still believe there is an electrical leak path within the washer...


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The test button on the GFCI receptacle does NOT require a ground to work.
The handheld plugin GFCI tester DOES require a ground to work.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> I understood that it would be exempt from the GCFI requirement if it is wired directly, e.g. there is no outlet to plug anything else in.


The cord and plug is your service disconnect for the appliances. 
The other code complication is you need MFG approval to hardwire them. (I can’t ever remember seeing hardwire presented as an optional installation in the instructions.)

All 120v laundry area circuits require GFCI protection. (As do all kitchen counter top receptacles, all bathroom receptacles, all garage receptacles, unfinished basement receptacles, etc) The old within 6ft of a sink rule still exists, but it is most commonly used in conjunction with a wet bar sink.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

joed...first, i'm not trying to be argumentative...if there is something i'm missing, i'm willing to listen...here's my understanding...
years ago i dissembled a gfci outlet...there are two pickup coils, one on the line and one on the neutral. these measure the current in each leg and feeds into both the inverting and non-inverting inputs of an op amp. the op amp amplifies the difference, so as long as they are the same, the output of the op amp stays at zero.
when the test button is pressed, it connects a resistor to ground to shunt some of the current and unbalance the inputs to the op amp...the output of the op amp then goes active and trips the gfci.
without the ground connection, there is no way to shunt current away from the circuitry and the op amp will always remain balanced.
however, a gfci outlet will work correctly without a ground...it just needs a ground to test it correctly.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

zhawkeye said:


> joed...first, i'm not trying to be argumentative...if there is something i'm missing, i'm willing to listen...here's my understanding...
> years ago i dissembled a gfci outlet...there are two pickup coils, one on the line and one on the neutral. these measure the current in each leg and feeds into both the inverting and non-inverting inputs of an op amp. the op amp amplifies the difference, so as long as they are the same, the output of the op amp stays at zero.
> when the test button is pressed, it connects a resistor to ground to shunt some of the current and unbalance the inputs to the op amp...the output of the op amp then goes active and trips the gfci.
> without the ground connection, there is no way to shunt current away from the circuitry and the op amp will always remain balanced.
> however, a gfci outlet will work correctly without a ground...it just needs a ground to test it correctly.


It does NOT require a ground to test.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

If it doesn't require a ground to test it, can someone lead me to an article explaining how it works?
I would like to know the theory of operation behind it...
Thanks


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## Shadow99 (Nov 3, 2017)

A GFCI receptacle's test button works, even without a grounding conductor.
It shunts a small amount of current from the hot after the CT, to the neutral before the CT.


Some people get confused with GFCI testers, they can't do that (obviously), so they test by shunting to ground. Which won't work on an ungrounded circuit, and freaks out HI's across the country :biggrin2:


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

Thanks shadow...yes I can see how that works without a ground...but the one I dissected DID have the resistor to ground.
I'm surprised that that they would manufacture them in this fashion as if installed in a two wire system, it would test OK, look like a grounded outlet, and be missing the ground altogether...I'm going to start a new post on the subject for more info...
Now that this is cleared up, back to joabraun problem...personally I feel you've tested the other outlet and that it's working correctly.
I'm not sure there's anything else you can try except wait for the tech to show up...when is he due?


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

zhawkeye said:


> I'm not sure there's anything else you can try except wait for the tech to show up...when is he due?


Thanks everyone, I think have learned alot about GFI, Leakage current, etc. The tech did show up last week and stated that the washer/dryer are not GFI compatible. I have escalated and am awaiting a call back from someone more senior. I'd like to give them a chance to rectify/explain/test leakage current before posting all the gory details. Stay tuned, be patient....

I was wondering what type of certification these machines have, and noticed a CSA label. From CSAgroup.org I found that they have been certified and that the requirements are that they meet "UL 2157 Electric Clothes Washing Machines and Extractors". I have not been able to get the actual UL2157 document ($$$), but I did search a google search and found a IAEI discussion of leakage current:https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/columns/ul-question-corner/ul-question-corner-leakage-current/ That I believe addresses this situation.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

While I'm not surprised, I am sorry to here it...

When you do here from someone higher up, you can try to verify that the dryer utilizes a switching power supply for the electronics...if so, ask if a medical grade supply is available...they have quite a bit less leakage than industrial grade supplies.
I doubt they manufacture their own supplies when they're so readily available from a multitude of manufacturers...and many times a medical grade is available, though a little more expensive...


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## curiousB (Jan 16, 2012)

You mentioned it trips the instant the water valve turns on. Maybe the solenoid coil of water valve is faulty and has leakage to ground. 

If you are inspired open unit up disconnect switched hot wires to the water valve (should be two). Then start a cycle again. Of course the tank won’t fill but if it runs beyond the start of the water fill portion of the cycle. If it doesn’t trip they try one solenoid without the other to see which one causes the trip.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks but it’s a week old so I am not going to touch it.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

If the tech’s diagnosis is confirmed, send the units back. That is a manufacturer’s defect.


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## zhawkeye (Oct 19, 2019)

If the specifications state the it's not compatible with GFCI circuits, you should at least be able to return or exchange it as I'm fairly confident the sales person didn't mention it...
Is there any warning sticker on the back of the dryer stating anything about GFCI circuits?


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## Papi Chulo (Jun 19, 2021)

joabraun said:


> Hi All,
> Currently in the midst of a laundry room renovation, and converting to a compact washer and heat pump dryer.
> 
> There are two dedicated 110V 20Amp circuits.
> ...


Hi Joabraun,
I just installed the Miele stacked units and I have the same problem, tripping the GFCI on a 20 amp circuit. The specs say 15 amp outlet should work. Did you get a fix? Can you PLEASE tell me what it is?

Thanks


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The 20 amp circuit should have no effect. In fact the NEC requires a 20 amp circuit.


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## joabraun (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi Papi,
first off I would like to apologize for not updating the thread with what seems to be working for me and has been for the past 12 or so months. I purchase a Hubbel commercial grade gfci receptacle from an electric supply house I believe the model number is GFTRST20W.








Power Protection Devices, Receptacle, Self Test, GFCI, Commercial Grade, 20A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, 5- 20R, White | GFTRST20W | Hubbell


Power Protection Devices, Receptacle, Self Test, GFCI, Commercial Grade, 20A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, 5- 20R, White




www.hubbell.com





i have the washer plugged into the Hubbel on a 20 amp circuit and the dryer is running on its own 20 amp circuit that is protected by a GE GFCI breaker.

I ended up testing a few brands of gfci receptacles purchased from Lowe’s and Home Depot and none of those worked.

i reported all this to Miele and even sent a registered letter to their US president, nothing but crickets.…

jim


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## Papi Chulo (Jun 19, 2021)

joabraun said:


> Hi Papi,
> first off I would like to apologize for not updating the thread with what seems to be working for me and has been for the past 12 or so months. I purchase a Hubbel commercial grade gfci receptacle from an electric supply house I believe the model number is GFTRST20W.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Jim,
Thanks for the update. I already replaced the outlets with non-gfci units and they work fine. I don't anticipate any moisture there, they are 4 ft up the wall and away from the W&D. It was very hard reaching in the closet to switch out the outlets so I think I'll leave it as is.

Thanks, Papi


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