# Which layout would you go with?



## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Which of the 2 proposed layouts (last 2 images) would you go with for upcoming remodeling? The first image is current layout. Splitting my hairs over this. Any feedback is much appreciated!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I like the first one with the kitchen in the center but I would steel another foot from the closet for the dinning room.


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

Option 3 - I would leave the deck as-is and bump out next to it where you propose the new deck to be; I don't like the idea of using a deck or any of its parts or foundation as part of a house and why tear it down just to build a new one?


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

I'd keep the kitchen in the back, but with the larger footprint you have in another view. Scrap the formal dining room, and pull the family room to the front of the house. Between the kitchen and family room, set up an informal dining room/dinette.

I decided to expand my answer....You're going to want the kitchen just off the rear deck. The two go together most often. That's why you should keep the kitchen to the rear. The views should also be better off the kitchen, because people are standing versus sitting, especially with the island seating arrangement. In the summer, your deck and kitchen become a single large gathering area.

Formal dining rooms just don't get used. It's no longer common to put them in the prime front window area. An informal dining area between the kitchen and the family room will be far more functional and friendly. 

Your family room would also be right off the front entry, and that is most inviting for arriving guests.

I'd also push the main master bedroom to the rear, and pull the master bath forward. The master bedroom could then have deck access. The deck would fill the whole area in the rear, instead of being divided like it is. 

One other thing I noticed....are you forgetting a stairway somewhere?


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

I would also connect the master bath and master closet. You could have the bath on the other side of the closet, where the closet serves as a hallway between the 2, but that is inefficient unless the closet is very large. (not a big fan of this design.)

Otherwise, have the closet accessible from inside the bath.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Thank you all for a very constructive feedback! Here are some of the constraints that I am dealing with based on the current (original plan). Hopefully this explains why I want to move the deck and why the house wall on the right has no windows. Also, I don't really want to mess with the load bearing wall, hence both proposed plans dance around that. The space between master bedroom and the deck I want to use for an a/c unit, and possibly a generator.


I personally like the first proposed layout more, but my wife wanted a window by the kitchen sink. That's how the second layout was born. But on the second layout I see a problem with smaller living room. It can be swapped with the dining area as was proposed by BrownEyedGuy (super comprehensive feedback & ideas, thank you!), but I don't see a good place for a TV since 2 walls have wide openings. Then, guest bedroom window facing the deck. I think it may be difficult to accommodate people who want to stay up longer on the deck and those who are tired and want to sleep.


I think adding a small sink to the island will solve a problem of not having a window by the main kitchen sink. Will update drawings over the next few days (spending too much time at work). Yes, indeed, I do have to add stairs in the hallway. The house is a raised ranch with 2 garage doors on the side of the house where the driveway is.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

davison0976 said:


> I personally like the first proposed layout more, but my wife wanted a window by the kitchen sink.
> 
> 
> I think adding a small sink to the island will solve a problem of not having a window by the main kitchen sink.


Unless you want this to be a bachelor pad, you'd better keep the kitchen in the back. :vs_smirk:

Taking a closer look at the kitchen, I'd move the frig to where you have the stove, and move the stove to the island. It makes the kitchen more functional. If there's a microwave currently over the stove, move that to where the frig was.

Actually, that island is large enough, you could still put a small sink in it too. Your wife would love that for her main food prep area. (I'm normally the cook, and I would love it.)

You do not want your A/C unit next to the deck. Bad! Move them both over to the far right wall that doesn't have windows. Also, having your deck stop 6 feet short of reaching the next wall is visually awkward. 

Your load bearing wall between the living room and dining room is already open all the way to the right wall now. Leave it that way. Make the whole area front to rear open.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Couple questions:
- what are your must haves (budget, dining, living thru remodel, etc)
- why 2 separate additions?
- why the offset on the larger addition?
- is it a simple gable roof?
- which way is south, and where are you located?
- does the deck have to be 16x12 with that bumpout?

Some generalities:

When you enter a house, you don't want to be in a closed-off vestibule-like area (#1) and when there is no immediate living room, you don't want to have to weave thru other rooms to get to the back family/kitchen (#1,2). Also, the family must have windows (#2). Only the dining isn't required to have them, as long as its part of a larger area with windows.

Unless you're a slab on grade, usually you don't put bathrooms on opposite sides of the house (you prob have a basement beam to cross on those front ones, and long runs = low ceiling) and don't take up the good views (m.bath has 3 prime walls, m.bed 0).

In this size house you try to group functions adjacent: bedrooms together, active together (kitchen/family/deck) and closets can be buffers, but try not to take up prime exterior walls.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

I'd go with option 1 without a doubt.

Couple "usage" opinions:


Having a narrow entryway "hall" sucks - you can't get people in the door, can't take and hang up their coats while they're in there. Also its a SOP rule that you'll have minimum 3-5 people standing in the entry way saying goodbye to leaving guests.

I do like having a bench in the entryway so your older guests can have a seat while they take off their shoes (also gives you a spot underneath to put wet shoes/boots when you come in, if that's a thing in your climate.) 

Entry way closets are never, ever, big enough (I think it's a Murphy's Law rule or something.) 

Option 1 has a great layout for entertaining. Having the dining room open out onto the deck is great. As is having the dining room open to the kitchen. As is having the kitchen open to the family room. 

Option 1 also gives that "third" bedroom privacy even if folks are out on the deck while they're sleeping (party or whatever.)


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Did the OP ever answer if he's using (part of) the deck foundation for the upper right addition?


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Information is absent that would be very important if we were building. Where is the car parked when it returns from the supermarket? Garage ? I'd rather not carry groceries farther than necessary to put them away and neither would the wife. Media / computer room location? Most used room just after the kitchen and half bath/toilet. Mechanical room HVAC etc.

The wife is correct that a kitchen sink needs a window.

But don't feel alone as you are normal in that emphasis is often placed on guest comfort while you are stuck with the layout 365 days/year. :biggrin2:

If this were ours we would sell and build new.


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

Here's another twist.

Kitchen in the back.
Dining room in the middle.
Family Room to the left of the Dining Room (don't have the walk through the FR with food to and from the DR).
Third bedroom in the front.

Result... both FR and Kitchen have ready access to the Deck, and you don;t have a "public area" deck access into a "private" bedroom.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

huesmann said:


> Did the OP ever answer if he's using (part of) the deck foundation for the upper right addition?



No, not using any part of existing deck foundation for the upper addition. In fact, current deck is on 5 posts with concrete footers and a ledger board at the house wall, i.e. not much of a foundation for an addition.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> Unless you want this to be a bachelor pad, you'd better keep the kitchen in the back. :vs_smirk:


But on a bright side I may learn how to cook. :biggrin2:



BrownEyedGuy said:


> Taking a closer look at the kitchen, I'd move the frig to where you have the stove, and move the stove to the island. It makes the kitchen more functional. If there's a microwave currently over the stove, move that to where the frig was.


Yes, that's exactly what I also thought after reading one of your earlier post emphasizing importance of the views, and realizing that tall appliances should be moved away from "prime" location where windows can be placed.






BrownEyedGuy said:


> You do not want your A/C unit next to the deck. Bad! Move them both over to the far right wall that doesn't have windows.


Heard exactly the same thing from an architect I worked with just over a year ago.




BrownEyedGuy said:


> Your load bearing wall between the living room and dining room is already open all the way to the right wall now. Leave it that way. Make the whole area front to rear open.


True, however, there is a load bearing beam that spans the opening protruding downward from the ceiling 1 foot. It gives a logical separation of area, even of there is no full vertical wall.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> Couple questions:
> - what are your must haves (budget, dining, living thru remodel, etc)
> - why 2 separate additions?
> - why the offset on the larger addition?
> ...



Given the purchase price 6 years ago and how much done up properties of resultant size go for I wouldn't like to spend more than 150K on all of this. Ideally, would like to keep living in the house during the entire remodeling phase. Kitchen is important and can't be demolished until a new one is in place.


I want to have a deck in the middle for privacy, hence it makes sense to place it between the two additions. Deck would preferably have a roof over it. That's the main reason I am leaving a small gap between new master bathroom addition and the deck. Otherwise roof planes end up being too long, but I haven't clearly worked out that part yet.


Larger addition has an offset to keep things a little more interesting, as opposed to having a straight long wall without walls or windows. This does create a challenge for how to structure a roof over that part. Current roof is a gable on both left and right sides of the house.



As far as the bumpout on the deck, I was hoping to use that as a stairs landing zone without taking away any space from the 16x12 area.


The house is located in Northern NJ. Empty lots are impossible to come by, flood zones only if one becomes available and they go for close to 100K or more for less than 0.5 acre. I've been noticing people either remodel or knock down old houses completely and build a new one. They kill us with property taxes here too. Neighbors across the street demolished an old ranch and built a brand new traditional house 3,200 sq ft. Now their taxes are 33K per year. I am paying 10K on our current house and I wouldn't be surprised if it jumps to 15K after the proposed renovation.



Thank you for general points and making me aware that the family room may not be up to code on windows.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Information is absent that would be very important if we were building. Where is the car parked when it returns from the supermarket? Garage ? I'd rather not carry groceries farther than necessary to put them away and neither would the wife. Media / computer room location? Most used room just after the kitchen and half bath/toilet. Mechanical room HVAC etc.
> 
> The wife is correct that a kitchen sink needs a window.
> 
> ...



This indeed is one of the mild pain points. Car parked in the garage which is in the basement under the bedrooms and it's not convenient to haul groceries through multiple doors, stairways, to the main floor.


Computer room was more important to me before, but now it seems I have mostly transitioned to laptop which I use in a living room.


Half bath/toilet is actually a full bathroom accessible from the hallway. While mechanical + laundry will be in the basement, same place they are right now.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

F250 said:


> Here's another twist.
> 
> Kitchen in the back.
> Dining room in the middle.
> ...



A splendid idea indeed in terms of functionality, flow and access. Do you know what would be a best way to arrange a furniture in a Family Room in this example, including a TV? It just seems couches will be in the middle of everything and one would constantly have to walk around them.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

The lot I have is irregularly shaped in the back, while township requires 60' setback from the backyard property line. As a result, I can only add up to 10' to the house wall on the left and up to 16' on the right.


Sewer line currently runs in the back, 10' from the wall of the house, then turns 90 degrees towards the street and runs a total of 80' after it makes the turn to the city main line by the road. It's already fairly long and new bathrooms in the front of the house I would connect by running sewer lines through the front yard.


I am going to update the drawings over the next few days/weekend while going thought the suggestions in this forum and post updated versions.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

That sewer is crazy! Can you even have multiple hookups to the main line outside of the house? I assume the MBath addition in your layouts is a crawl, or are you too high?

$150K sure won't get you as much in NJ as in say AR. Two separate foundations and 3 full baths might be tight there.

I like privacy too, however, what about high windows (transom) along that wall? What about evergreens since the neighbor is 40' away? I see why the existing deck is over there - to get in the full sun. Funny how we put decks in the sun then cover them up with trellis and umbrellas!

Is moving the stair an option, or too much while living there?


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Another opinion, pass this one onto your wife:


I made my husband jump through hoops moving the window so I'd have a nice big window over the kitchen sink. Doesn't help a lick for seeing anything in the sink though >.< I've decided this "tradition" is massively overrated, what we really want is some bright lights right over that sink. I'm making my husband install two 5000k LED down lights behind the wood window valance.


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

davison0976 said:


> A splendid idea indeed in terms of functionality, flow and access. Do you know what would be a best way to arrange a furniture in a Family Room in this example, including a TV? It just seems couches will be in the middle of everything and one would constantly have to walk around them.



Perhaps a modified version of a mirror image of your 2nd option layout. When I say modified, I mean that perhaps some pieces could be angled off the walls instead of right angles to one another. You could do this by having just a partial wall between the kitchen and family room areas (just large enough to support the TV/entertainment equipment), and that would offer a fee path from the kitchen straight into the FR or straight out to the deck area without having to navigate the furniture arrangement.

I would also play around with moving the "front of house" kitchen wall closer to the front of the house and swap the position of the bath and bedroom areas with the bath being on the outside wall -- the closet could be in the front corner and you would not have to move the existing window layout in that bedroom. The goal with that bed layout, in my mind, is to consume the hallway where the bath and bed entry doors are and then have a single bedroom entry door coming in from the front foyer area. Of course, that would end up isolating the bath from being a potential "guest access".


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Unless your area specs the 60' setback in a particular direction, shouldn't your 60' be measured perpendicularly from the rear property line? You're gonna lose an extra 5" off your drawn setback. 

Are there front and side setbacks?


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Davidson, I don’t like either designs because they both look like
a grumble of rooms. 
I think the basic footprint of your existing house is nice,
The bedrooms and bath are adequate.

Now, as for your budget of 150k you’re going to get sticker shock
when you start getting contractor estimates. I think you’re looking
at 300k. 

Perhaps you should think about making the deck a family room, 
and upgrading your existing kitchen by adding a breakfast room. 

I made a rough drawing...I don’t have any graph paper handy, however
if you like it, you could put it into your computer program and play with it.
This may come close to the 150k budget.

I left an 8’ wall in the family room for a 65 to 75 inch tv. Also a 10’ box
window as well as windows all around the room.

I’m window crazy and put windows everywhere that I could in our
diy renovations. Including the 10 ft box windows and the 8 foot
bay window.n
I put interior french doors in the dining room (2 sets)
and a single french from the breakfast room to the deck.

I put the sink and DW in the Island... 2 narrow pantries in the kitchen
(about 15” deep) as well as 2 narrow bottom cabs (15” deep)

The disadvantage that this kitchen has is there is no window. Skylights
could be installed in the kitchen...


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

huesmann said:


> Unless your area specs the 60' setback in a particular direction, shouldn't your 60' be measured perpendicularly from the rear property line? You're gonna lose an extra 5" off your drawn setback.
> 
> Are there front and side setbacks?



You are absolutely correct, it should be perpendicular. I don't know what I was thinking. How did you find out it's 5" since there were not enough variables to solve it empirically? Very impressive!


Yes, there are other setbacks. Front is 40' from the road (house is at 41.89' according to the survey) and 2 sides combined should be at least 30% of the frontal width (127') with any given side not smaller than 10% or 15' whichever is greater. So, figure at least 20' on each side.


Dashed lines on the image below represent required setbacks.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Mystriss said:


> Another opinion, pass this one onto your wife:
> 
> 
> I made my husband jump through hoops moving the window so I'd have a nice big window over the kitchen sink. Doesn't help a lick for seeing anything in the sink though >.< I've decided this "tradition" is massively overrated, what we really want is some bright lights right over that sink. I'm making my husband install two 5000k LED down lights behind the wood window valance.



I've seen quite a bit of remodeling shows by now with Property Brothers being probably my favorite, and I do find come to think of it that they don't sacrifice layout for having a window over a sink. If it can't be done it can't be done and result still looks very good.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> That sewer is crazy! Can you even have multiple hookups to the main line outside of the house? I assume the MBath addition in your layouts is a crawl, or are you too high?
> 
> $150K sure won't get you as much in NJ as in say AR. Two separate foundations and 3 full baths might be tight there.
> 
> ...



I meant to run lines in front to the sewer line on the property which connects to the main, joining with a Y. But I do agree, it starts to look like an exhaust manifold on a V configuration engine.


Hoping for an equipment (lawn mower, snow blower etc.) storage under the master bathroom addition. It will be full basement height which is 7', right off the garage.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Two Knots said:


> Davidson, I don’t like either designs because they both look like
> a grumble of rooms.
> I think the basic footprint of your existing house is nice,
> The bedrooms and bath are adequate.
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to put together a drawing. I think the design elements with corners and windows look quite attractive and interesting. A noticeable step above a simple box type of design. I'll try to incorporate similar features.



As far as the 300k you are absolutely correct, and that's a realization that I had already lived through a year ago. Back then I worked with an architect to draw up a renovation plan. He kept assuring me the renovation costs run at around 120 per sq.ft. and a plan was drawn with 125k-150k total cost in mind. When I started getting estimates from contractors they were coming in at around 275k.


This what brings me to DIY. I want to finalize the plans and build for 150k or less. That's my goal, - to find a way to make it happen. Granted I will not be able to do everything on my own, but a lot of the things I should be able to. Once I am happy with the layout I could start working on the project one step at a time. I feel I owe it to myself to give it a try.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

davison0976 said:


> I've seen quite a bit of remodeling shows by now with Property Brothers being probably my favorite, and I do find come to think of it that they don't sacrifice layout for having a window over a sink. If it can't be done it can't be done and result still looks very good.


Yeah, I mean it looks nice to have a window, it's kind of the "standard" - but I think that's because back in the day the lighting was so poor, or because "historically" we didn't have dishwashers so we were in the sink for long periods and needed to keep track of kids or just look outside, or to have a breeze to off set the hot water steam - rather than for any reason that's really legitimate these days. 

This is my range and sink wall: 















What I like 100 times more than the window over the sink, is the big flat space over the dishwasher (in the peninsula there) by the sink. I really wish I had more space on both sides of the stove, but especially between the sink and stove. 

I was so focused on having those windows and fitting my kitchen design around them, that I'm now having to expand my kitchen even further to address how we actually use it. I do love my kitchen, but there were mistakes; I should have pulled out at least that smaller window and put in wall cabinets. I should have put all the tall cabinets on the wall with the fridge. I shouldn't have gone with the 42" tall uppers. Live and learn.


I wouldn't put cabinets over the sink personally, too close to the face, but having a sink in an island or peninsula is way cooler/more useful IMO. Maybe having a TV wall mounted over the sink would be a better option these days HA


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

Mystriss said:


> What I like 100 times more than the window over the sink, is the big flat space over the dishwasher (in the peninsula there) by the sink. I really wish I had more space on both sides of the stove, but especially between the sink and stove.


You have a lot of very good insight. Large areas like your peninsula, my island, and his island tend to automatically become the main food prep area due to their size, regardless how convenient they are regarding the sink and stove positions....Therefore, it is best to actually foster that more by consciously laying them out to work in conjunction with the sprawling countertop area. 

If I had an island as large as his, I would love to have the cooktop right in the island, still have the middle of the island be a large prep area, and as an added bonus, a very small secondary sink for doing food prep stuff. That would be a killer kitchen. 

My cooktop is right behind my island, and that works OK for me. What I really wish I had was a tiny sink in the island so I didn't have to move wet things between the island and the main sink behind me. I still want the main sink where it is, behind me, and in a large corner between the dishwasher and stove.

The oven doesn't need to be in the island. So it only needs to be a cook top. That can leave the space below for pots and pans. Granted, it was about 30 minutes ago that I finally finished the huge pan rack I built over my island. If I can get decent pictures of it, I plan to post a thread about it shortly. Yeah, I was up all night finishing the gazillion LED lights in the pan rack. But it might take hours, days, or even weeks for someone like me to actually clean the kitchen back up after this project.


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## 195795 (May 24, 2013)

davison0976 said:


> The lot I have is irregularly shaped in the back, while township requires 60' setback from the backyard property line. As a result, I can only add up to 10' to the house wall on the left and up to 16' on the right.


60' setback is a lot - I'm sure the township would give you a variance for building into that setback - typical process is to apply for variance, pay fee they charge, and their Board of Adjustments holds a public hearing on it where you state your case and your neighbors can go and tell them, no problem, let him do it.

Interesting that the sewer lines go out back and come 90 degrees around to front - why wouldn't they just have run it out the front when hut was built


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

davison0976 said:


> You are absolutely correct, it should be perpendicular. I don't know what I was thinking. How did you find out it's 5" since there were not enough variables to solve it empirically? Very impressive!


LOL I just took your drawing and referenced it into CAD, assuming your property line angle was more or less correct.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Sewer - is there a cleanout at the first "Y" (and definitely one at the 90 turn)? How deep below the basement is it, and how will that affect you building a foundation on top of it? I did understand you saying the front baths would run out the front - but is it legal to have 2 additional (1 old, 1 new) connections outside the house footprint (assuming the main stack is the one in line with the stair)? I've never seen it like that, so I don't even know what the book says. Even a couple old coach houses I've come across ran into the main house and connected there.

Not trying to focus too much on the sewer, but it may affect the location of your addition.

Also, here's a little secret: there is no standard cost/sf in residential. There are too many variables in finishes from shingles to subfloor. To be within $150K, keep the layout simple. For starters just one addition and no side bumpout causing a complicated roof.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Texasdiyer said:


> 60' setback is a lot - I'm sure the township would give you a variance for building into that setback - typical process is to apply for variance, pay fee they charge, and their Board of Adjustments holds a public hearing on it where you state your case and your neighbors can go and tell them, no problem, let him do it.
> 
> Interesting that the sewer lines go out back and come 90 degrees around to front - why wouldn't they just have run it out the front when hut was built



In fact, my neighbor went through this process recently when adding a sun room. He ended up hiring a lawyer for that. All worked out well for him.


I am trying to stay within the limits, but if it comes to it, I think over a foot or so difference I should be able to get variance approved.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> Sewer - is there a cleanout at the first "Y" (and definitely one at the 90 turn)? How deep below the basement is it, and how will that affect you building a foundation on top of it? I did understand you saying the front baths would run out the front - but is it legal to have 2 additional (1 old, 1 new) connections outside the house footprint (assuming the main stack is the one in line with the stair)? I've never seen it like that, so I don't even know what the book says. Even a couple old coach houses I've come across ran into the main house and connected there.
> 
> Not trying to focus too much on the sewer, but it may affect the location of your addition.
> 
> Also, here's a little secret: there is no standard cost/sf in residential. There are too many variables in finishes from shingles to subfloor. To be within $150K, keep the layout simple. For starters just one addition and no side bumpout causing a complicated roof.



There is a clean out at the 90 degree turn. It's not a hard 90 turn of course. I might had misspoke. I meant I would connect new lines to the existing line. Only existing main connection will be there.


That said, I want to replace the sewer line completely. It's cast iron and by the looks of it has been in the ground for about 30 years. The house was built in early 1960' and it appears at least part of the sewer line has already been replaced once, probably in the 1990s. I had seen pieces of cast iron when I dug around the existing line this summer to solve a drainage problem.


The lines exiting the house are 2ft below grade and are 6" above the basement slab. At the 90 turn the line is about 3' below grade.


That's one of the reasons I want to work out a layout, so that I know how the new system will have to be designed. I would never put a foundation over the existing line.


I also think original builder putting lines outside of the house in the back, as opposed to running them under the slab toward the city main was a long term thinker. A lot better to dig dirt than to dig dirt and tear concrete foundation of the house.


As far as the cost, you know what really gets me going on this, is that no one was able or willing to provide me with any kind of itemized cost estimates. Like materials, labor etc.


Some of these dudes just want to spend someone else's money. I had one contractor bragging how he can put in a kitchen for 300K. Seriously? Is that what, supposed to be gold plated?


And then this friend of mine does a TV service not long ago for one of contractors in the area at a newly built house. And there is another newly built house right next to it. Talks with the contractor about this and that. Comes to find out the contractor bought an empty lot, subdivided it in 2 (all legally through the town, of course), then built the two new houses roughly 2500sq ft for around 150K a pop. There you go, a hole house in the expensive NJ for 150K.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

First of all, let me say how grateful and appreciative I am for the feedback, ideas, suggestions and personal experiences all of you have shared! I just couldn't see on my own many of the things you have pointed out. Truly a huge thank you to all!


I've tried to incorporate as much as I possibly could while still working within the known constraint, and came up with an alternative plan shown below. I like it the most so far, and by a good margin.


It also solves a pain point of having garage under the bedrooms. Currently, I roll out my car (manual transmission) every weekday morning at 6:30 manually from the garage because my wife is sleeping. If started in the garage it literally sounds like the car is standing right next to a bed.


Hopefully this is a step in a better direction. Please let me know what do you think. The entry room/area will have a staircase into the basement. That will take up some of the space. I had to sacrifice master bedroom size and closet size, but both a still very functional in my opinion. My wife said she would prefer kitchen island to have no appliances on top from the usable space point of view.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

davison0976 said:


> Currently, I roll out my car (manual transmission) every weekday morning at 6:30 manually from the garage because my wife is sleeping. If started in the garage it literally sounds like the car is standing right next to a bed.


You driving a Civic or WRX with a fart can? Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . 

My neighbor would start his Harley in second every morning to not wake all the neighbors up at 6:30. 

Not to defend GC pricing, but remodels/additions are always more $$ on an apples-to-apples comparo with a whole house build because of no efficiencies in staging, custom work, etc. etc. etc. And when they give a bid they might see that new WRX with the fart can in the garage thinking you're loaded :biggrin2:


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> You driving a Civic or WRX with a fart can? Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
> 
> My neighbor would start his Harley in second every morning to not wake all the neighbors up at 6:30.
> 
> Not to defend GC pricing, but remodels/additions are always more $$ on an apples-to-apples comparo with a whole house build because of no efficiencies in staging, custom work, etc. etc. etc. And when they give a bid they might see that new WRX with the fart can in the garage thinking you're loaded :biggrin2:



"Fart can", - that's funny! :biggrin2: But no, I am a Jeep Wrangler guy and I like to keep my vehicles for a very loooong time. The exhaust is stock by the way.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

How much cooking and baking do you guys do? Not a lot of cabinet space in the new design. (You saw my cabinets, right? I don't have enough cabinet space.)




That said, I like the new layout, but you've sure taken out a lot of the load bearing wall with it. Are you thinking to have beams on the ceiling in the dining room and right side bedroom, because I think you'll need em.


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## moneymm22 (Jan 10, 2019)

I would go with the top one for sure.

you want to get the family room furthest away from all the bedrooms as possible.

also you dont want to walk in the house and be facing someones bedroom.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Mystriss said:


> How much cooking and baking do you guys do? Not a lot of cabinet space in the new design. (You saw my cabinets, right? I don't have enough cabinet space.)


I was gonna say—unless those 3 grey blocks in the dining room are cabinets, he doesn't have enough of them.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

Mystriss said:


> How much cooking and baking do you guys do? Not a lot of cabinet space in the new design. (You saw my cabinets, right? I don't have enough cabinet space.)
> 
> 
> That said, I like the new layout, but you've sure taken out a lot of the load bearing wall with it. Are you thinking to have beams on the ceiling in the dining room and right side bedroom, because I think you'll need em.



Yes I did see you mentioning that you are looking to add more cabinets. We are trying to "feel through" having just the two wall mounted cabinets right now. In the current kitchen we are actively using 2. One is 32high by 36wide that holds daily use plates, cups and glasses. Another is 32high by 21wide by the stove with small batch cooking essentials like salt, pepper, spices etc.


If we are not at work we eat almost exclusively food cooked at home. Including weekends, roughly half of the meals are cooked at home. If anything, I may just wrap the new kitchen around where the small bay window is and either join the counter with an island or shorten the island from 8 to 6 feet. I kind of like to be able to walk around it.


The new proposed layout has 2 full height cabinets next to the oven cabinet.




As far as the load bearing wall, most of it is still there. The 13'-7" opening is just 2 feet wider than I currently have on the other side, and the house has stood without any wall cracks or sagging since early 1960's. I'll just have to see how they framed the existing opening and do the same on the other side. If town building department will want me to get an engineer's sign off I will gladly do so.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

@davison0976


Great idea to try 'faking' it now with 2 upper cabinets for sure. With the cabinet units in the dining room for pantry/storage and the island for work-surface it could work. 


Ah in post #6 you had the "top" wall marked as load bearing.


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

Just another spin on your much-improved layout. If you open up the area in the red dashed portion, you can also enlarge your office area and still have a very "open feeling" entrance into the home with excellent flow.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Where did the stairs go? in your remodel layouts I don't see the stairs that are shown in the as is layout


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## F250 (Feb 13, 2018)

Jackofall1 said:


> Where did the stairs go? in your remodel layouts I don't see the stairs that are shown in the as is layout



That's one sharp pair of eyes you have there, Jack! The question has been asked several times thus far, and the OP has answered in posts #6 and #35. Essentially not seen, but not forgotten.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

F250 said:


> That's one sharp pair of eyes you have there, Jack! The question has been asked several times thus far, and the OP has answered in posts #6 and #35. Essentially not seen, but not forgotten.


Well there ya go, the invisible stair way under the hatch into the coal room, I would think that showing them on a layout for review would be pertinent for evaluation. 

But my bad, I read the OP's question and answered without reading all the posts subsequent to the original post, (2) minutes in the penalty box for me....:surrender:


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## 195795 (May 24, 2013)

davison0976 said:


> Yes I did see you mentioning that you are looking to add more cabinets. We are trying to "feel through" having just the two wall mounted cabinets right now. In the current kitchen we are actively using 2. One is 32high by 36wide that holds daily use plates, cups and glasses. Another is 32high by 21wide by the stove with small batch cooking essentials like salt, pepper, spices etc.
> 
> 
> If we are not at work we eat almost exclusively food cooked at home. Including weekends, roughly half of the meals are cooked at home. If anything, I may just wrap the new kitchen around where the small bay window is and either join the counter with an island or shorten the island from 8 to 6 feet. I kind of like to be able to walk around it.
> ...


The oven setup in the dining room is ridiculous !


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