# Data dilemma



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

You can get a device that allows you to remove the hard drive, put it in the device, and force read it. All it takes is a good strong magnet to scramble its brain.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Will not boot up at all, as in entirely blank screen? Or will POST but not boot to OS (hang, like no MBR found)?


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

You can get a hard drive dock and connect it up to another computer via USB and wipe the drive. But they probably want to have the operating system intact to diagnose the problem. So you might have to trust them. Sometimes that's all you can do. And you can always just change your passwords.


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## diyorpay (Sep 21, 2010)

You say 'my password file with ALL my user names and passwords to various sites including banking, financial, and medical...is...on that hard drive'.

If it is a file for sure, like Word or Excel, it can probably be deleted.

Suggestion: Download an Ubuntu iso file and burn to a dvd. Then boot AND RUN Ubuntu from the dvd. Primer: https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/try-ubuntu-before-you-install#1-getting-started

There are probably commands beyond 'delete', even as an administrator, that will truly delete the file as in nuke the file. That way, as raylo has advised, Amazon's backend techies can still try to analyze what went wrong.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

huesmann said:


> Will not boot up at all, as in entirely blank screen? Or will POST but not boot to OS (hang, like no MBR found)?


First time I re booted after registering Windows, the screen flashed 'can not locate operating system, will retry', or something like that. After about two minutes of that, I rebooted again, THEN just 'black screen'. ...... Only noticable difference was that the big fan (has two) would normally come on for 5 seconds at the begin of boot, this time it would stay on for about 30 seconds and then shut off.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

diyorpay said:


> You say 'my password file with ALL my user names and passwords to various sites including banking, financial, and medical...is...on that hard drive'.
> 
> If it is a file for sure, like Word or Excel, it can probably be deleted.
> 
> ...


Thanks Di, not sure I'm going to put that much effort into it (although had I known, probably would have been easier than what I did do), but I did call the vendor who is replacing the tower, told him my concern, he said 'don't worry about it, we will be wiping it anyway'. ...... I said "don't worry about it ...... easy for you to say". ..... He then suggested pulling the HD and putting it in my old PC as a 'slave', access the file and delete it ....... great idea ....... did it, but the old PC doesn't see it. Have booted a couple times, no luck.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

diyorpay said:


> You say 'my password file with ALL my user names and passwords to various sites including banking, financial, and medical...is...on that hard drive'.
> 
> If it is a file for sure, like Word or Excel, it can probably be deleted.
> 
> ...


After consideration, I figured I'd try it, but then I follow your link and what do I get.......questions, like "Download the Ubuntu release of your choice"....... "release of your choice"? ...... I haven't got a clue what MY choice is ........ I just like to see a button that says 'download'. But thanks again anyway.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

raylo32 said:


> You can get a hard drive dock and connect it up to another computer via USB and wipe the drive. But they probably want to have the operating system intact to diagnose the problem. So you might have to trust them. Sometimes that's all you can do. And you can always just change your passwords.


There's probably 10 years worth of passwords and usernames, but yes, could change the money ones. 

As for the OS, I don't care if I wipe everything, I think they plan on it anyway. And since I can't get it to read as a slave on my old PC, not sure if a hard drive dock would do any better. 

But they say that they will be shipping the new one as soon as they can verify that the return is in the possession of Fed Ex, so not concerned with a total wipe.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Cheezy hackz. Did your tower come with a Windows install disc or do you have one laying around? Pretty much any version should do.

Go through the process of installing windows, making sure to FORMAT the hard drive(s). 

Do that two or three times and no one's gonna recover that password file.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Can't tell if this is a hardware failure or a drive failure...sounds more like the former if there's a totally blank screen on boot.

OP, do you have access to another computer with SATA drives (assume the drive in question is SATA)?


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

huesmann said:


> Can't tell if this is a hardware failure or a drive failure...sounds more like the former if there's a totally blank screen on boot.
> 
> OP, do you have access to another computer with SATA drives (assume the drive in question is SATA)?


Can't tell you if it is a SATA drive, but it accepted the connection on my old computer. As mentioned earlier, I tried it in the slave drive position but the old unit couldn't see it. Re booted a couple times but never showed in file explorer.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Cheezy hackz. Did your tower come with a Windows install disc or do you have one laying around? Pretty much any version should do.
> 
> Go through the process of installing windows, making sure to FORMAT the hard drive(s).
> 
> Do that two or three times and no one's gonna recover that password file.


Thanks Mys, but don't have any boot discs. Found an old CD that I had burned called the 'Ultimate Boot disc', but didn't work. Apparently not so ultimate.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

If you're talking slave position, then it must be an IDE/ATA drive—AFAIK SATA doesn't do master/slave anymore. I don't even know if IDE drives are even still available on the new market.


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## adamz (May 13, 2018)

RanK2 said:


> Thanks Mys, but don't have any boot discs. Found an old CD that I had burned called the 'Ultimate Boot disc', but didn't work. Apparently not so ultimate.



What's the boot order in BIOS? Is it set to boot the CD drive before the hard drive?


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

adamz said:


> What's the boot order in BIOS? Is it set to boot the CD drive before the hard drive?


Excellent question. I'm not sure, just assumed that they were always programmed to boot from a cd if inserted before boot. 

Unfortunately, without being able to boot it, there is no way I know of getting in to find out (at least at my level of knowledge). And if I could, I don't see any need for a boot disc.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

So I received my shipping label, and am about to give up and ship it as is, although not thrilled about leaving that info on the HD.

Called a local shop, said $72 to wipe if I bring the HD. ..... Not spending that. Might as well just buy another unit and trash THIS HD with a drill.


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## adamz (May 13, 2018)

> Unfortunately, without being able to boot it, there is no way I know of getting in to find out (at least at my level of knowledge). And if I could, I don't see any need for a boot disc.


If you posted the make model number of the tower, we can likely determine how to get into BIOS. Sometimes, using the BIOS/keyboard access methods, you can boot to a 2nd partition in the tower and reformat things using that method. But make model would be needed to research that.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

adamz said:


> If you posted the make model number of the tower, we can likely determine how to get into BIOS. Sometimes, using the BIOS/keyboard access methods, you can boot to a 2nd partition in the tower and reformat things using that method. But make model would be needed to research that.


Happy to give you that info, but my pea brain can't comprehend how one could get in to do anything when all you get is black screen and the unit shuts itself off after 30 seconds of trying. 

Brand:Lenovo
Model: ThinkCenter M72e

As I said, it's a 'refurb'.


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## adamz (May 13, 2018)

Black screen makes a difference, didn't know that. Without a screen, it's hard to do anything with that drive unless you remove it and put it into another tower or use an external housing and format with another computer.



I'll look for BIOS just for the record and post something later.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

adamz said:


> Black screen makes a difference, didn't know that. Without a screen, it's hard to do anything with that drive unless you remove it and put it into another tower or use an external housing and format with another computer.
> 
> I'll look for BIOS just for the record and post something later.


I did pull the HD and hooked it into my old Win 7 Dell as a slave drive, but booted it a couple times and Explorer wouldn't recognize it. Tried to add it as new hardware also, but it couldn't find it. ...... Cooked or jammed maybe?


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## HandyAndyInNC (Jun 4, 2018)

I'm not going to try and figure out what type of BIOS you have, how the drive is partitioned or what format was used. I am going to give you a little free advice for the future.


Once you have a new drive, partition it into multiple partitions, or use two separate drives. Never store your data on the same partition as the OS. If ever needed, like now, you can always format the OS partition and your data remains safe.


I was once locked out of my Windows NT Server OS, and everything was on a single partition. There was getting into that OS any longer. And without that, since the drive was formatted using NTFS, there was no seeing anything. I adding another drive with Unix on it, nothing. I tried many different OS types on the other drive, but nothing would see that partition. I could see the drive, but not read anything on it. That is the security of NTFS format on a server OS.

Since that day back in 1992, I have always stored all my data on a different drive than the OS. I still partition the drives up, but nothing at all resides on the same drive as the OS. That way I can format and rebuild the OS partition every 10 - 12 months, or when I see poor performance happening. That is part of the general maintenance of a computer. It must have the OS partition formatted every now and again. I still use a laptop that is now 20 year old. About every year, I format the OS partition, and then format each of the other partitions one at a time to reinstall all the applications. I use that laptop for things like SQL Server DTS 2000, SQL Server 6.5, 7 and 2000. You would surprised at the number of companies that we all do business with, especially banks and other government entities, that still use old software like that to store data. Some I contract with are still using databases from the 1960's. IMS and IDA are a couple. Even though it was not called DB2 back then. IBM took the RDBMS and created DB2. But that is a whole other story.


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## adamz (May 13, 2018)

RanK2 said:


> I did pull the HD and hooked it into my old Win 7 Dell as a slave drive, but booted it a couple times and Explorer wouldn't recognize it. Tried to add it as new hardware also, but it couldn't find it. ...... Cooked or jammed maybe?



It might be cooked. Did you happen to check Disk Administrator?


https://www.diskpart.com/windows-10...d,can be recognized in Disk Management. More


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## HandyAndyInNC (Jun 4, 2018)

Stop the OS from booting into Windows. You want to do all of this troubleshooting in the BIOS, not in windows. You can also check the BIOS to see if it is recognized there. It all depends on the format of the drive. If it was NTFS, then another version of windows will not read it, period. That is some of the security of the format. If it is shown in the BIOS chip, and it shows the drive size, then it can be read from. There are many command line tools to read a NTFS format drive from a command line before windows takes over. I cannot remember the command to stop windows from booting after BIOS. But I had to do it a few times. I'm not talking about F12 or Escape or anything like that. I'm talking about right after the BIOS(Basic Input-Output System), nothing else needs to happen and a command line can be used. It is like booting from a DOS disk from the 80's


Did you happen to perform a BIOS update thru Windows? Have you looked in the BIOS to see if it recognizes the drive? I never allow any of my windows boxes to perform any auto updates. It could be that if you did perform a BIOS update thru a Windows update, it changed the settings for the drive. It can changed back.
Did you happen to check the BIOS battery? Remove it and put it back in after a couple minutes. That will flash the BIOS chip. Put the battery back in, or install a new one. That could also be the issue. The BIOS battery is now no good and the BIOS is blank. Without a BIOS, nothing about that drive will be known by the drive controller.


If windows 10 was setup for UEFI and it is now in legacy mode it wont boot (If windows 10 was upgraded from windows 7 then the bios likely needs to be legacy mode) But I would first verify if the BIOS can even see the drive. If not, do as I suggested above. Stop booting into Windows. Use the BIOS until it is recognized. Even if the MBR has changed, the BIOS will still recognize the drive. Change the BIOS battery and power on the box and go into the BIOS settings.


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## adamz (May 13, 2018)

Hi Andy,


Just FYI, his tower has a black display. Just wanted to mention to follow your BIOS options, the drive might need to be mounted in a 2nd computer.

Sometimes these drive issues take several tries.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

If the computer won't even boot to a POST screen, the drive isn't the (first) problem getting the computer to run.


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## subbuilder (Jun 20, 2016)

How do you know it did the POST of the screen is blank? (Pro's can take it from there after OP puts up the answer).


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## subbuilder (Jun 20, 2016)

subbuilder said:


> How do you know it did the POST of the screen is blank? (Pro's can take it from there after OP puts up the answer).


Disregard my post, never read page 2


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

For reference, BIOS is on the Motherboard, it doesn't require an OS [windows etc] to run. It comes with the MB and stays there forever - has nothing to do with hard drives and OS. 

Typically to access you hit F1 or F2 before it tries to boot the OS [different motherboard companies use different bios keys so it's kind of a trial and error thing. Those are the two suggestions for your specific computer] - https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-access-the-bios-on-a-thinkcentre-computer


Unfortunately you'll still need a boot disc/flash drive to format the hard drive. Getting into bios would let you boot from the disc/flash drive you create. Though you can check if the BIOS is set up correctly to boot off your existing drive -- I fear this is not the case because you state you have a blank screen. IF it was merely a missing boot record then bios would spit out an error that it's not finding it >.<


That said; making a boot disc on another computer is pretty easy to do though especially if you have Win 8+ and a flash drive on hand.

Written how to guide on doing this (lots of ways to make a boot disc, some are easier to follow for some folks than others) - https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-make-a-partition-bootable-with-diskpart

Lots of videos on how to do this also:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=create+a+boot+disk

Once you have a boot disc you can use command prompt (DOS) to format the thinkcenter drive. Instructions on how to use Diskpart to do that if you decided to go that route -


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Sorry got distracted there and forgot to put in written instructions for diskpart format >.< (I like to include video so you can see what you are looking for - then written is much easier to follow when typing in.)

Once you get the "Command Prompt" window up; type diskpart and hit enter say yes to open the diskpart window.

On the diskpart.exe window:

You'll type select volume 0 and hit enter

Then type format fs=NTFS label=whatever and hit enter

You need to do this for every volume (select volume 1, format, select volume 2, format, etc.) to make sure you've cleared everything off the drives/partitions before sending the system back for a replacement.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Sorry got distracted there and forgot to put in written instructions for diskpart format >.< (I like to include video so you can see what you are looking for - then written is much easier to follow when typing in.)
> 
> Once you get the "Command Prompt" window up; type diskpart and hit enter say yes to open the diskpart window.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info, Mys, but my head is about to explode from it all. I don't even want to think about DOS.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

If the machine won't POST, AFAIK there's no way to get _any_ boot device to boot to _any_ OS.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

RanK2 said:


> Thanks for all the info, Mys, but my head is about to explode from it all. I don't even want to think about DOS.


Heh I hear ya. 

Do you have a working system somewhere, maybe a friend? Could hook the drive up in their system and format it.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Heh I hear ya.
> 
> Do you have a working system somewhere, maybe a friend? Could hook the drive up in their system and format it.


I'm using my old Windows 7, Dell unit right now. ...... I pulled the new HD and mounted it in the Dell in the 'slave' position. Booted the unit a couple times, but explorer would not recognize the drive. It was as if it wasn't there. 

No expert here, but I assume it was connected as the Dell slave connection hooked right up. 

Still haven't shipped it back, hate to with the data on it, but I'm about to give up on it.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Try this when drive is hooked up to your other computer - https://www.howtogeek.com/268901/wh...isnt-showing-up-in-windows-and-how-to-fix-it/

IF it shows up in the disk management list then format it 2-3 times - no quick format. Then you'll be safe to send it back and your password file will be gone.



Also make sure you have two cables going to the drive - one is data line, the other is power. There shouldn't really be a master/slave setting anymore, was kinda phased out in 2003 when SATA came out... Which kind of cable do you have on the Dell and on the back of the drive your passwords are stuck on?



















_Note on bottom drive in pic; you do not need both Molex Power and Sata Power - just one or the other. That drive is a transitional probs from 2005-2006 and just happens to have both options on it._


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Try this when drive is hooked up to your other computer - https://www.howtogeek.com/268901/wh...isnt-showing-up-in-windows-and-how-to-fix-it/
> 
> IF it shows up in the disk management list then format it 2-3 times - no quick format. Then you'll be safe to send it back and your password file will be gone.
> 
> ...


Good stuff, Mys. Too late tonight but I will try and post a pic, of what I thought was the slave slot, tomorrow. Wiring doesn't resemble your pics.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Interesting, I look forward to seeing what contraption you've got heh


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Have pics to post but see no way to do it other than the "insert image" tab above, which I assume means I have to first post them to a third party? ...... Another thread says go to 'manage attachments', but I don't see any such option.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Manage attachments is a small window.

You want to click "Go Advanced" then scroll down a bit and click "manage attachments" then you can browse to your pictures and click "upload" after the picture is uploaded (it'll show up in the list) then you can close the manage attachments window and click the paperclip at the top of the message (post) window (next to the smile) and hit "insert all" to put them in your post


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Manage attachments is a small window.
> 
> You want to click "Go Advanced" then scroll down a bit and click "manage attachments" then you can browse to your pictures and click "upload" after the picture is uploaded (it'll show up in the list) then you can close the manage attachments window and click the paperclip at the top of the message (post) window (next to the smile) and hit "insert all" to put them in your post


Yes, looked for it before, other forums use it but it ain't showing up on my Chrome browser. Only thing following the 'advanced' window is an 'additional options' box, followed by the forum posts in reverse. 

No "manage attachments" to be found here.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

BTW Mys, tried the link:

https://www.howtogeek.com/268901/wh...isnt-showing-up-in-windows-and-how-to-fix-it/

Didn't show up there either. Although I did feel movement in the HD when I plugged it in as a slave drive.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Try these instructions for pictures: https://www.diychatroom.com/f114/how-insert-images-into-your-posts-205921/


If the drive whurrs it should be accessible, just gotta figure out what setup you have 

More drive types here:


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Try these instructions for pictures: https://www.diychatroom.com/f114/how-insert-images-into-your-posts-205921/
> 
> 
> If the drive whurrs it should be accessible, just gotta figure out what setup you have
> ...


Thanks for the pic Mys, still not able to post my pics, but the plug setup looks like the third from the top.

In lieu of pics, this is what the label says on the HD: 'Seagate Barracuda 500GB'.

It says more, let me know if more helps.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

No master or slave position for a SATA drive, if you really mean the third one down.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Does this look like something you see on the drive?











If so, typically we want the jumper on Cable Select or Master.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mystriss said:


> Does this look like something you see on the drive?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Mys, been a looong time since I mounted a slave drive, had forgotten ALL about the jumpers. 

A picture is worth a thousand words, and until I can post a pic, I could easily spend a thousand words trying to paint you a picture.

Waiting for an Administrator to see if they can rectify the problem. 

Actually I keep getting a nag telling me I am not 'fully' registered. Not sure that that has anything to do with it, but then not sure how I can even be posting if I'm not 'fully' registered.

Will not waste anymore of your time without putting up pics. What I can give you is this link which shows the exact pin configuration of my new unit HD. It has no jumpers on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=KDPOpBi2gtE&feature=emb_logo


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Okay, that's just a speed jumper, not master/slave positioning. It should not make a difference, leave it on the 1.5Gb setting just in case - if it's too late for that should be no worries, your Dell should limit it to SATA I speed if it doesn't have SATA II on it. (SATA II & III are backwards compatible to I.)

So now we know you've a standard sata drive. Hook up drive to Dell then try to get into BIOS using the F1 or F2 when you first turn it on. (Did you have Windows 10 on your Dell? If so see this: https://www.dell.com/support/articl...etup-from-windows-on-your-dell-system?lang=en - else do F1 or F2 before the windows logo pops up.)

In BIOS there should be a link in the list for Hard Drives - you typically have to use the keyboard in bios rather than mouse. *BIOS is different by manufacturer, but I think this is the bios you probably have on the DELL. If not then I'll try to find other bios style with DELL information:










Drive 0 is your Dell's boot drive so do not mess with that one.

Arrow down to Drive 1 and hit enter - look at the bottom right and see if the Thinkcenter drive shows up there under "Drive Details" 

-- If drive does show then make sure Drive 1 is enabled (aka set to ON) then hit ESC, you might have to save bios settings. Then you can boot into windows as normal and do the disk management thing from how to geek again - https://www.howtogeek.com/268901/wh...isnt-showing-up-in-windows-and-how-to-fix-it/​

-- IF the drive isn't showing up in BIOS then we've probs got the data cable connected to the DELL motherboard wrong and we get to dork around some more :vs_laugh:​


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mys, one thing ........ The Dell HD has two plug in's, one wide, one narrow ..... off of the wide one comes a second identical plug, which I assume is for a slave drive, but according to the diagram, the 'wide' plug is for power, and the narrow for data. .... Is that the case?
It seems like it would be the opposite to me.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Ah so you got the "Slave" thing from the Dell's cabling? Yeah that's old stuff that doesn't particularly matter anymore. Technology kinda takes care of that stuff these days.

-

On SATA cables; the wider one is for power, the narrower for data - they also have "wings" so you can't do it backward anyway. 

The short answer is that the individual wires for data are much thinner than individual wires for power heh

-

ALL computer power cables, regardless of the size and shape of the plug connector bit only carry specific voltages - typically you'll have 12V, 5V, 3.3V then one or more ground wires (or com channels depending on the device) The sata power cable for example; has 2 grounds (because it needs multiple power sources), plus the 12V, 5V, and 3.3V lines - so 5 wires total. VS the "Molex" (or 4 pin) power plug shown on some of the other drives in the pictures I posted only have 1 ground on them (because it only uses 1 power source), and it's the exact same 12V, 5V, and 3.3V "wires" in a different configuration/arrangement.

The power cables in your DELL are exactly that coming off the power supply 12V, 5V, 3.3V lines plus grounds - and just like the electrical in a house, you can "daisy chain" to have multiple outlets and even switches all coming off the same breaker's romex cable. AKA the "primary/master" and "slave" connectors are both very much like separate outlets in your house so you can use both at the same time - just like outlets. As long as you're not overloading the circuit (which is pretty hard to do heh)

In fact, the sata power cable sort of "daisy chains" a bit too, it actually has 3 pins in the connector that are connected to the 12V wire, often times the sata power 12v can draw from different 12v rails on the PSU - so like a typical magnetic drive draws 10W which it can take off multiple 12v rails so you don't have mini brown outs lol

-

The SATA data cable actually has 7 "wires" inside the cable which are much smaller and just used carry the data between the motherboard and the hard drive - 3 grounds and 2 each receiver and transmitter lines ; TXP/A+ (data line positive transmitter), TXN/A- (data line negative transmitter), RXN/B- (data line negative receiver), and RXN/B+ (data line positive receiver).


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks for all the help, Mys, it's been an education, but I'm not going to attempt all that bios stuff just to delete a file. ...... Unless there is a way to corrupt the existing data on the HD without ruining it, I'm just going to send it back as is and go through the hassle of changing a bunch of passwords.


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## RanK2 (Feb 19, 2020)

An update and happy ending to this saga. Again much thx to all, especially Mystriss, for all the help that was over my head. ........ Anyway, it appears THIS blind squirrel found an acorn.

As my OP stated, just wanted to access the new, now un-accessible, HD to remove financial data and passwords before returning it. ....... Had all but given up on trying to boot the computer which would only give me black screen. 

Reluctantly, as a last resort, my pea brain entertained the idea of removing the HD from my old Dell, and put in the new HD. ......... Did it, hit the power, and Wa-La (is that how you spell 'wa la'?) ..... it booted right up. ..... Was able to go in and clean it with DPWiper. ....... Was not a HD issue at all. ........ Now ready to send it back.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

*Voilà*, for future reference. 

Oh, and congrats!


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

sweet!


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