# New concrete garage floor cracking and moisture



## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

I had a new garage built in August. They built a frost wall that is 4 feet deep. 8 in wide and on a 16-inch footing. The floor of the garage is at least 4 in thick on top of at least 4" gravel. And I remember them using some kind of rebar over the gravel. I believe it was the fencing variety. I've noticed that when it rains there are many areas of moisture, dark spots that show up throughout the entire garage floor. These are not puddles of water coming in from outside of the garage. They're actually blotchy areas of moisture coming up through the floor. I also noticed a new crack towards the front of the garage. There is no weight in the garage right now other than some Lumber off to the sides. I haven't even put a car in there yet. The crack is down the center where it meets the driveway. I don't understand what could be causing all of this. I do know that the surrounding yard is mostly clay from about 12 in down and probably retains a lot of water. What can I do to mitigate these issues and should I be worried?

Ps... the vertical line of water you see in the first photo where the crack is is from the garage door. It's the second photo that shows some of the moisture I'm speaking of


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

So did they just dig trenches to work on the footing or did the dig the whole area out and replace the fill?


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> So did they just dig trenches to work on the footing or did the dig the hole area out and replace the fill?


They just dug a trench around the perimeter and pour the footing into the forms. They let that set for about 24 hours and then poured the wall on top of that. Again they waited another day or so. They left the original dirt in the middle and excavated the top layer so that they could put the gravel on top and then the concrete.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> So did they just dig trenches to work on the footing or did the dig the whole area out and replace the fill?


Here's a photo of how they trenched it and left the center. And this is just when they were pouring the footing. They then put the frost wall on top of that. But the center remained. It was a poured Frost wall


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

So they left all that topsoil with roots under the slab?


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Do you recall if they used a vapor barrier or not? Did they cut control joints in the concrete. It is cracked, and it will crack. The control joints just tell it "where" to crack in an orderly fashion.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> Here's a photo of how they trenched it and left the center. And this is just when they were pouring the footing. They then put the frost wall on top of that. But the center remained. It was a poured Frost wall


 So you have clay, organics and topsoil with a little gravel on top. 
This what it would look like here. So I think cracking is to be expected.
They only back fill with what came out if is a sandy mix or they buy aggregate and it is compacted in lifts as they fill it


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

mark sr said:


> So they left all that topsoil with roots under the slab?


Yes. The excavated a little bit off the top to make room for the gravel and the concrete pour. Otherwise that was it. I didn't know that they should have done it any different. Or what the standard is.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a photo of how they trenched it and left the center. And this is just when they were pouring the footing. They then put the frost wall on top of that. But the center remained. It was a poured Frost wall
> ...


They back filled with what they pulled out of the trench which was mostly clay


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

chandler48 said:


> Do you recall if they used a vapor barrier or not? Did they cut control joints in the concrete. It is cracked, and it will crack. The control joints just tell it "where" to crack in an orderly fashion.


No vapor barrier. They have a control joint down the center of the garage floor. But it's going in the opposite direction. That crack is all the way up in the front by where the driveway meets the slab. There's also an expansion joint between the slab and the frost wall.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> No vapor barrier. They have a control joint down the center of the garage floor. But it's going in the opposite direction. That crack is all the way up in the front by where the driveway meets the slab. There's also an expansion joint between the slab and the frost wall.


 Did they do anything to control water under the slab, waterproofing or damp proofing of the foundation or drainage? 
I don't know what you can do. we have a geo engineer on all jobs like this and have seldom seen a problem.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > No vapor barrier. They have a control joint down the center of the garage floor. But it's going in the opposite direction. That crack is all the way up in the front by where the driveway meets the slab. There's also an expansion joint between the slab and the frost wall.
> ...


They didn't do anything like that. I ended up actually firing them after they built the garage because they were supposed to build the perimeter wall higher. I was supposed to have 4 in of wall over the slab and they only gave me one inch. What if I put sealer down on the concrete? Can that help with the moisture?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> They didn't do anything like that. I ended up actually firing them after they built the garage because they were supposed to build the perimeter wall higher. I was supposed to have 4 in of wall over the slab and they only gave me one inch. What if I put sealer down on the concrete? Can that help with the moisture?


 You have no control of water movement under ground And even if you did you then might deal with settling issues, Nothing done on top will make any difference, we often have curb and slab level at the back but the slab should have a slope to the door.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > They didn't do anything like that. I ended up actually firing them after they built the garage because they were supposed to build the perimeter wall higher. I was supposed to have 4 in of wall over the slab and they only gave me one inch. What if I put sealer down on the concrete? Can that help with the moisture?
> ...


 they really didn't grade it very much. It might be a half of an inch at most. At one point it actually grades back towards the side door from the front of the garage. They were not very consistent. On top of that the slab that they put in for the side entry door is connected to the garage floor slab. It was all one pour. And they didn't grade that away from me garage and it's also at the same level. So I do get a little bit of water coming in around that door point


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> they really didn't grade it very much. It might be a half of an inch at most. At one point it actually grades back towards the side door from the front of the garage. They were not very consistent. On top of that the slab that they put in for the side entry door is connected to the garage floor slab. It was all one pour. And they didn't grade that away from me garage and it's also at the same level. So I do get a little bit of water coming in around that door point


 That pad outside should have been 2" lower and with a door threshold to step over you never notice the 2 inches. 
You slab inside will likely move all over the place with different settling rates and decomposition as well as changing water content below.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > they really didn't grade it very much. It might be a half of an inch at most. At one point it actually grades back towards the side door from the front of the garage. They were not very consistent. On top of that the slab that they put in for the side entry door is connected to the garage floor slab. It was all one pour. And they didn't grade that away from me garage and it's also at the same level. So I do get a little bit of water coming in around that door point
> ...


 yeah I know. They screwed me over real good. I tried to put a silicone around the outside of the door sill and it worked for about a week and then water managed to make its way under it again. As far as the slab goes what do you think of this sealer? https://allgaragefloors.com/siliconate-penetrating-sealer/


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Concrete sealers don't do much for protecting the slab from water underneath, they are more about protecting the concrete on the top. The threshold should be removed and caulked underneath.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> yeah I know. They screwed me over real good. I tried to put a silicone around the outside of the door sill and it worked for about a week and then water managed to make its way under it again. As far as the slab goes what do you think of this sealer? https://allgaragefloors.com/siliconate-penetrating-sealer/


 Nothing on top of the slab will do anything save your money and live with what you have. If you can pull the door and raise it 1 1/2 inches you may have a change of sealing around that.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

May not be a leak at all and usually isn't. If you placed a rubber back throw shop rug in another area in close proximity to an outside wall it would probably have moisture under it as well, especially early morning. Check the surface temperature and compare with the morning weather report for your area.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> No vapor barrier. They have a control joint down the center of the garage floor. But it's going in the opposite direction. That crack is all the way up in the front by where the driveway meets the slab. There's also an expansion joint between the slab and the frost wall.




The control joints should be in both directions, length and width so you would have 4 quarters .


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I think at this point, the best thing you can do is make sure run off water is kept away from the building as much as possible. Gutters in place with long laterals. Back fill and slope away from the building. A stem wall would have nice here, but that ship has sailed. Plant grass when you can.
And that side step was just bad planning around. It probably was level when they poured it. But with frost heave and one edge attached to the main slab.........well you see the result. It will just get worse with each passing winter. Leaving it in place with water running back to the door, it will just be a matter of time before the door framing rots. I see no choice but to have it cut out. Either put in a lower step or maybe a few paver stones. But even no step is better than what you have.


Also, its not too late to cut more control joints.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

At least they cut a control joint at the slab, you may get lucky and it will break away from the slab there, to late for more control joints as the need to be cut no later than 24 hours, some say 18 hrs.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Canarywood1 said:


> too late for more control joints as the need to be cut no later than 24 hours, some say 18 hrs.



Canarywood, Seems like a control joint cut in late is better than none at all. Or is the recommendation to cut early, because it will cut easier? In either case, aren't you weakening the joint by about 25%? Or maybe the recommendation is to cut quick, because cracking could start quick?


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> Here's a photo of how they trenched it and left the center. And this is just when they were pouring the footing. They then put the frost wall on top of that. But the center remained. It was a poured Frost wall


Looking at that pic, it appears the lot has a slope and goes slightly uphill on one side of the garage. If that’s the case the problem is evident. Clay has poor permeability as we all know. What end up happening is water from uphill collects in the less dense area around the footings then keeps rising all the way up past gravel underneath the slab. 

You have a freaking basin underneath that slab. If you are in a cold climate where things freeze and thaw in the winter, 10 years down the road that whole concrete slab and top part of the walls will be completely destroyed. No vapor barrier would had helped, no sealer/sealant would help.

You need to get rid of that water by digging a drain off trench along the wall of the garage on the side where elevation is higher. About 2ft from the wall and to the depth of the footing. Then channel that water down the slope on one end.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Yodaman said:


> Canarywood, Seems like a control joint cut in late is better than none at all. Or is the recommendation to cut early, because it will cut easier? In either case, aren't you weakening the joint by about 25%? Or maybe the recommendation is to cut quick, because cracking could start quick?




Because cracking starts after that time period.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

davison0976 said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a photo of how they trenched it and left the center. And this is just when they were pouring the footing. They then put the frost wall on top of that. But the center remained. It was a poured Frost wall
> ...


A couple of questions... If I dig down to the bottom of the footing I'll be going about 4 feet down. Where am I channeling the water to? I mean it's going to go to some other part of the yard and also about 4 ft down and just end up back in the same place won't it? I looked into putting a dry well into the backyard but the companies that came said because of the clay it'll only retain water and be a waste of money. Also, the house is on the same land and the footings for that are even lower. Wouldn't I see the effects of the water on the house foundation as well?


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Canarywood1 said:


> Yodaman said:
> 
> 
> > Canarywood, Seems like a control joint cut in late is better than none at all. Or is the recommendation to cut early, because it will cut easier? In either case, aren't you weakening the joint by about 25%? Or maybe the recommendation is to cut quick, because cracking could start quick?
> ...


This is what I'm now trying to figure out. Seems like there's some conflicting thoughts on whether you can cut a control joint now. If it should have been done in quarters than it was not done correctly. And the crack is right around the center point where the other control joint should have been cut. I don't want to ruin the slab by cutting something into it that will create another problem


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> davison0976 said:
> 
> 
> > RetroJoe_1 said:
> ...


My bad, 4 feet down will be excessive. I forgot it’s a frost resistant wall. First, let’s recall why people put gravel under a slab. That’s to cut off a capillary action, so that slab remains dry. Therefor, it will be sufficient to have a trench (you can fill it with gravel or sand later to look nicer) such that the bottom is couple of inches below the level where the native soil and gravel meet under the slab. Iirc you have 4” slab and 4” gravel, so that’s 10” below the top of the slab. Sorry, using phone to reply, can’t easily see dimensions you had mentioned. Now, with that shallow trench do you have any slope left to run the water off?

The reason you don’t see issues in your house is because it’s warm. Footing standing in the water is not a problem since concrete is not afraid of water. Let that house stand cold and unattended for one winter and there will definitely be basement slab and possibly wall cracks.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

*control jnts need to be cut asap to control random cracking which's why someone invented the early-cut green saw - 'soff-cut',,, cutting early also means cut doesn't have to be as deep,,, conc crks from the btm upwards & it will find the weakened plane (initial cut),,, spec is usually t/4 (depth of initial (control) cut = 25% of thickness),,, another advantage is nobody stays 'ti its time to saw or makes special trip the next day to saw*


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> I didn't know that they should have done it any different. Or what the standard is.


I actually get pissed off when I see this happen. RetroJoe spends his hard earned cash and some fly by night contractor screws him over.

For most jurisdictions... there is no "standard" when it comes to concrete flat work. 

No requirement for:

an on site soil analysis,
drainage assessment for the lot and building location,
minimum footer concrete mix strength,
footer sub grade compaction testing,
vapor barrier,
slab sub-grade compaction testing,
concrete slab concrete mix strength,
reinforcing steel type and size in the concrete,
control joint placement time frame and layout,
etc.

Here's the deal. The top soil that contains organic materials (such as roots) needed to be removed. Since it wasn't those organic materials will rot, leaving voids. Those voids lead to settling after the slab is poured. 

Any fill material that was added should have been proper fill materials (again, nor organic compounds and fill that locks in place), and it needs to be subsequently compacted. If the fill depth exceeds 4 inches, each 4 inches needs compacted before more fill is added. If it isn't, then it too will settle after the slab is poured.

Your slab is destined to have a lot more cracking issues, and since there was no wire mesh or reinforcement in the slab those little cracks will likely separate and become wider cracks, and likely become offset, (little steps). 

Any idea if they used fiber mesh in the concrete mix?

If you are still curious.. check out this link and read some of the articles. To late for this project, but it will provide valuable information for future projects: 

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326215

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353845

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346747


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

Sounds like you need to control/divert the water with a curtain drain uphill of the pour. Divert to either side.

You have clay - clay does not pass water - however, concrete is a sponge and will merrily soak it up an display it forever.

You need to "ask" the water to go somewhere else via a curtain drain... 

The contractor should have known that area, should know what to do when they see clay and know how to handle the future problems. Perhaps they were afraid to suggest something that would have raised the price?

Whatever you do, do not try and "seal" the top of the concrete - you'd just ask for future trouble and trapped moisture.

The good news is that the concrete (despite the crack) is staying moist as it continues to cure and should be very hard when it's done curing.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

Sounds like you need to control/divert the water with a curtain drain uphill of the pour. Divert to either side.

You have clay - clay does not pass water - however, concrete is a sponge and will merrily soak it up an display it forever.

You need to "ask" the water to go somewhere else via a curtain drain... 

The contractor should have known that area, should know what to do when they see clay and know how to handle the future problems. Perhaps they were afraid to suggest something that would have raised the price?

Whatever you do, do not try and "seal" the top of the concrete - you'd just ask for future trouble and trapped moisture.

The good news is that the concrete (despite the crack) is staying moist as it continues to cure and should be very hard when it's done curing.


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

OP, you should sue the contractor and get your money back, plus demolition expenses.


On clay soils stand alone structure (structure without heating and sump systems) in freezing climates should have a slab bottom above the level of the original grade. Say you have original grade at level 0. You remove organic layer to prevent future settlement, say 6". You are at -6". Then you need to build up with highly permeable material like gravel or engineered aggregate (basically a byproduct of gravel production and is cheaper) to 4" above original grade. That's 10" total of an aggregate in this example. Then wire mesh should be placed on 2" chairs, not on the gravel, because in a moisture aggressive environment any rebar/mesh should be at least 2" inside the concrete, i.e. 2" away from the edge of concrete. Otherwise it will rust. Then do the 4" slab pour. The mesh will be right in the middle of the slab and will work as a reinforcement in both directions along the vertical axis (Y axis that is). Thus, the top of the slab is at +8" above original grade. It's best to use 4,000psi concrete in this case, and not because 3,000psi is not strong enough, but because 4,000psi will not wick moisture as readily.



Don't worry about vapor barrier with that design. In fact, it's best to leave it off because water will be trapped between vapor barrier and the slab, and stay there. Without vapor barrier your slab will breather.


If you were to do it that way I can guarantee you there will be no cracks in that slab ever, and it will stay fairly dry. The contractor who did the job should had known the challenges. That's why I am saying, take the information in this thread and sue them! "Pros" as they call themselves should pay for their mistakes. It is indeed appalling to see hard earned money to be taken in exchange for poor work. Right now you are double down, - spend money and got poor result, while the contractor is double up, got money and skimped on the job. You owe it to yourself, in the name of personal pride at least, to level it out!


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## davison0976 (Jan 5, 2019)

davison0976 said:


> On clay soils stand alone structure (structure without heating and sump systems) in freezing climates should have a slab bottom above the level of the original grade.



Let me just make a footnote here and say, - unless grade slope is sufficient to build a water evacuation channel like I had described in my earlier post in this thread.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

davison0976 said:


> OP, you should sue the contractor and get your money back, plus demolition expenses.
> 
> 
> On clay soils stand alone structure (structure without heating and sump systems) in freezing climates should have a slab bottom above the level of the original grade. Say you have original grade at level 0. You remove organic layer to prevent future settlement, say 6". You are at -6". Then you need to build up with highly permeable material like gravel or engineered aggregate (basically a byproduct of gravel production and is cheaper) to 4" above original grade. That's 10" total of an aggregate in this example. Then wire mesh should be placed on 2" chairs, not on the gravel, because in a moisture aggressive environment any rebar/mesh should be at least 2" inside the concrete, i.e. 2" away from the edge of concrete. Otherwise it will rust. Then do the 4" slab pour. The mesh will be right in the middle of the slab and will work as a reinforcement in both directions along the vertical axis (Y axis that is). Thus, the top of the slab is at +8" above original grade. It's best to use 4,000psi concrete in this case, and not because 3,000psi is not strong enough, but because 4,000psi will not wick moisture as readily.
> ...


I'm not sure at this point I'm going to be able to sue these guys. These were contractors Moonlighting using a company name that they work for during the day. That company was aware of the job and let them use their insurance to do my job. They basically charged me around $12,000 just to do this Foundation and slab. And this is something they apparently do quite a bit of. I had a problem right after they poured the foundation because the engineer drawings had called for the surrounding wall to be 4 in above the slab. They only made it 1 inch above the slab. The reason was to keep any possible moisture is far away from the sill plate as possible. They had just started building the framing and the exterior sheathing was getting wet from Splash Back of the soil with some of the rain that came down after they had first started the build. When this happened I threatened to sue them before the build continued. We had to workout a plan to continue the rest of the work. I basically agreed to let them continue at that point if they paid for a special type of sealer. I can't remember the name of it. But it came in a sausage gun and was pink in color. Basically seals and protects the sill plate and any of the wood close to it. Long story short I think I'm way past the suing stage. I could probably nearly every single contractor that had a hand in this project. A lot of People who don't know what they're doing. I ended up firing these guys when they built a deck on the side of my house and only had the ledger board screwed into the brick veneer. It failed inspection and I told them they were supposed to go into the framing of the house. One day I came home and they were drilling blindly into the house and went through one of my drain pipes. That was the end.

At this point moving forward I cannot change what they did not do. I'm just trying to figure out what I can do on the inside of the garage so that I can park my classic car in there and not worry. I've read that there are some interlocking rubber mats that can be put down on top of the concrete that will prevent the water from coming up underneath the car? I can try to work on some drainage on the outside but I'm hoping at least one person can give me some idea of what I can do inside the garage the damage has been done?


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Domo said:


> Sounds like you need to control/divert the water with a curtain drain uphill of the pour. Divert to either side.
> 
> You have clay - clay does not pass water - however, concrete is a sponge and will merrily soak it up an display it forever.
> 
> ...


How long does it take for it to cure? After they did the initial poor I went out there and spray it down with a hose nearly every day for about a week to keep the top of the pad wet. They finished the Foundation and garage floor in early August of last year.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't know that they should have done it any different. Or what the standard is.
> ...


I was extremely pissed for quite some time. This caused a lot of stress for me because these guys did several things wrong along the way. I had threatened to sue them a couple of times and finally agreed not to in order to get the job complete. Unfortunately I didn't realize at the time that the foundation should have been done differently other than the fact that they didn't follow the engineer has plans to keep the surrounding wall at least four inches above the top of the slab. We ended up arguing about this after it was done. They were going to pull the frame of the garage off and pour additional concrete on top of the already poured foundation wall which I did not feel very good about. I agree to just let it stay as is and have a tar like coating applied to the bottom of the OSB to protect it from any splashback.

They did put a wire mesh reinforcements as I recall about halfway through the slab pour. They also used rebar in the footing and in the foundation wall. They didn't grade the slab as I wanted them to with the proper drop off but there is about a 1 in drop from the rear of the garage to the front which is over a 24 foot span. Not sure one inch is sufficient for that. But I have not seen any water runoff so to speak if I pour out a little bit from a bottle at the back of the garage. 

The crew who did the new driveway, however, did a great job at grading everything away from the garage. Then fortunately had an uphill battle, no pun intended because the bozos who did the foundation built the garage too low and the driveway crew had to excavate extra dirt in order to prevent water from flowing down into the garage. This also became a bone of contention at the time and they blamed the engineer for not putting the proper height requirements and his plans. And that was true, as well. His plans were lacking. He never came on site to do any type of measurements and merely Drew up plans sight unseen. I'd have to sue everybody. I would have expected these contractors to not even do the job if they weren't happy with the plans but obviously they didn't care until it became an issue.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> I would have expected these contractors to not even do the job if they weren't happy with the plans but obviously they didn't care until it became an issue.



That's why it's important to get references. Most contractors are conscientious and try to do a good job [some do better than others] but there are also some out there that are only concerned with getting paid. Unfortunately it sounds like you got the latter. Good contractors care about doing a good job - it's their reputation that keeps them busy.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

So moving forward... I can put a curtain drain in around a couple sides of the garage. One side of the garage is 2 feet from my neighbor's property so there's absolutely no room to excavate. As far as inside of the garage does anybody have any opinions on the interlocking rubber flooring that can go down on top of the concrete to prevent moisture from coming up into the bottom of my vehicle? My main goal with this post is to figure out how I can mitigate any problems in the future. I don't want to stress out about the horrible contractors any longer. I already did for quite some time. There's nothing I can do about it at this point. I'm just looking for a solution to protect my car from getting moisture damage on the underside.


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## Porsche986S (Dec 10, 2017)

At this point here is what I would do . Take some plastic maybe 24 " x 24 " and maybe four pieces . Pic four random areas in the garage and tape them to the floor , use some good tape . Leave the plastic for 24 - 48 hours and then pull it up . Take good quality pics from several angles to show how much or how little water droplets there are . That is a data point to share either with us or additional contractors to try and resolve or minimize your problem . 

My gut tells me you'll see a decent amount of water droplets , if that is the case no way would I put down any type of rubber backed floor . You " might " be able to get away with garage tiles , the type that snap together to form a floor . While moisture would be trapped between the tiles and the concrete surface it would breath much better than any rubber backed product . 

Try to find ( by references ) a good masonary floor mechanic someone that knows sealers and epoxy floor finishes . Share the pics with them , explain your situation and listen to what they have to say . Try and get 2 - 3 opinions knowledge is power . 

And finally you may have to make the decision to have full time moisture removal in the space , could be a dehumidifier , conventional HVAC or a mini split . Removing moisture via these systems will help protect you car/s , tools and anything else stored in the building .


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Porsche986S said:


> At this point here is what I would do . Take some plastic maybe 24 " x 24 " and maybe four pieces . Pic four random areas in the garage and tape them to the floor , use some good tape . Leave the plastic for 24 - 48 hours and then pull it up . Take good quality pics from several angles to show how much or how little water droplets there are . That is a data point to share either with us or additional contractors to try and resolve or minimize your problem .
> 
> My gut tells me you'll see a decent amount of water droplets , if that is the case no way would I put down any type of rubber backed floor . You " might " be able to get away with garage tiles , the type that snap together to form a floor . While moisture would be trapped between the tiles and the concrete surface it would breath much better than any rubber backed product .
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. I appreciate everybody's feedback and this was great advice. I will take those pieces of plastic down on the floor momentarily. I'll check back in on Tuesday to share the results. Does snap together floor tiles are what I was thinking about. I saw an ad somewhere. I figured that might be a good solution at least on the inside of the garage. I can work on putting a curtain drain system around the outside perimeter. That way I only have to date a couple of feet down. I did put gutters on the garage but it's obviously not draining the water around the perimeter away. When it rains I noticed that the yard has some areas with large puddles. The clay is not very quick at absorbing the water. I spent a lot of money on his garage and want to protect the investment.


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## Domo (Nov 9, 2018)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> How long does it take for it to cure? After they did the initial poor I went out there and spray it down with a hose nearly every day for about a week to keep the top of the pad wet. They finished the Foundation and garage floor in early August of last year.


Typically they say NOT to put any driven (power) anchors for a couple of weeks - longer is better. After 30 days you can usually coat/seal (I never do that since concrete is a sponge and needs to breathe). 

With the clay under your crete, it's had a very happy time curing slowly and should certainly be done!


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## Tom153 (Nov 10, 2016)

Did they install a foundation drain around the periphery? Does the moisture only appear during rain? Do you know the mix of concrete they used, and the slump? What area do you live in, and what are the temperature extremes. Cracking next to, and parallel to an expansion joint should not occur do to normal shrinkage due to temperature. Do you notice any settlement of the slab or foundation (look for differential settlement across the cracks) and/or opening of the cracks. Normally, a large slab (say greater than about 3'x3') will micro-crack due to temperature expansion/contraction. The wire mesh (usual 4 inch squares, or rebar in 4 inch squares) will hold the cracks relatively tight and prevent differential settlement.

Leaving any organics under your foundation or slab is very bad. All organic soil should be excavated and either replaced with compacted fill, or gravel. Organics can retain moisture, also can cause differential settlement, and can decay.

Not sure what your corrective action should be. Since it's a garage, you might just live with it. However, if moisture is getting into the inside, that needs to be controlled. Even with micro-cracking there shouldn't be any moisture migrating up into the surface of the slab. Is your slab at the in situ grade level, or below grade level?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> I'll check back in on Tuesday to share the results.


 @RetroJoe_1 so what's the amount of water and temps during the last few days? If you want to throw in a pic of the car too, I wouldn't mind seeing it.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> RetroJoe_1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll check back in on Tuesday to share the results.
> ...


I just put down the plastic today. I meant to do it a couple of days ago but got caught up in other stuff. We just had a pretty good size snow storm last night. It's going to rain on Friday. So I figure I'll wait till Saturday to pull the plastic up. And here's a photo of the car I'm trying to protect 🙂


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Tom153 said:


> Did they install a foundation drain around the periphery? Does the moisture only appear during rain? Do you know the mix of concrete they used, and the slump? What area do you live in, and what are the temperature extremes. Cracking next to, and parallel to an expansion joint should not occur do to normal shrinkage due to temperature. Do you notice any settlement of the slab or foundation (look for differential settlement across the cracks) and/or opening of the cracks. Normally, a large slab (say greater than about 3'x3') will micro-crack due to temperature expansion/contraction. The wire mesh (usual 4 inch squares, or rebar in 4 inch squares) will hold the cracks relatively tight and prevent differential settlement.
> 
> Leaving any organics under your foundation or slab is very bad. All organic soil should be excavated and either replaced with compacted fill, or gravel. Organics can retain moisture, also can cause differential settlement, and can decay.
> 
> Not sure what your corrective action should be. Since it's a garage, you might just live with it. However, if moisture is getting into the inside, that needs to be controlled. Even with micro-cracking there shouldn't be any moisture migrating up into the surface of the slab. Is your slab at the in situ grade level, or below grade level?


I'm not sure what their concrete mix was. I remember they used the number 2 gravel crushed stone. Unfortunately I think they ended up making the slab below grade. It depends on where you are measuring grade. That's where they told me that the engineer should have figured that out prior to drawing the plans up which he did not and did not write it on the plans. They took their level and measured it from the back of the house area. However if you walk towards the front of the house grade is higher. Where they are at right now this lab is at grade or a little lower in the backyard. This is what caused a major conflict where I had to bring a lawyer in at the time because water was splashing back and getting the OSB sheathing wet because it was so close to the ground. Not only that but the company that came in to do the driveway afterwards had to excavate quite a bit of soil in order to prevent water from running down hill towards the garage. So essentially the slab is lower than a lot of the land around it. I did dig a trench around the garage and tried to grade the land away from it which I think I did in quite a few spots.

The crack that I noticed is in the very front of the garage where the door opens up. It is almost perfectly Center between the left and right side of the door. The expansion joint they put in is running in the other direction halfway through the garage going towards the rear. The asphalt is butt up against the slab. I haven't noticed any other cracks but I usually notice the moisture staining after it rains. In some areas you could see the water was actually coming up through the expansion joint around the perimeter of the garage. In particular closest to the side entrance door. At first I thought maybe the water was leaking underneath that which it was until I put some cock. But then I confirmed that it was not coming through the door it was actually coming out of the joint.

I'm in Upstate New York so average temperature in the winter can be in the teens to the 30s. The heat can get up to the 80s and 90s during the summer. Obviously there are times where it can be more extreme in both cases but those are averages. They did not put a drain in at all. They graded the slab about a half of an inch to an inch from the back of the garage to the front but they didn't even do that perfectly. If I measure from the very front of the garage by the door to the side door it actually grades backwards. So if I'm measuring from the top of the foundation wall to the slab in the very back of the garage it would read three quarters of an inch. When I get to the front of the garage it reads maybe an inch and a quarter if that. If I go over by the side entrance door it reads 2 in


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Not many of those around, 58 B, nice.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> Not many of those around, 58 B, nice.


It's definitely a rare one. Took me around five to six years to restore.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RetroJoe_1 said:


> It's definitely a rare one. Took me around five to six years to restore.


 One of the engines that year had a problem with the water pump leaking into the oil. GM did their best to forget they ever made it.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Wow, your garage really looks nice. And your Bonneville is fabulous! I just love those 4 door hardtops. My Dad had a black '57 BelAir 4 door hardtop, bought it brand new.. what awesome cars.



RetroJoe_1 said:


> How long does it take for it to cure?


28 days



RetroJoe_1 said:


> As far as inside of the garage does anybody have any opinions on the interlocking rubber flooring that can go down on top of the concrete to prevent moisture from coming up into the bottom of my vehicle? I'm just looking for a solution to protect my car from getting moisture damage on the underside.


I wouldn't use interlocking tiles, they will allow the moisture through them.

I'd suggest you buy a one piece mat, something waterproof. Here's a link: https://www.garageflooringllc.com/auto-containment-mat/

And i'd also suggest you seal the concrete with Eagle Natural Seal. I used it on my barn and it's awesome, and very reasonably priced. Here's a link: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eagle-5...llant-Sealer-and-Salt-Repellant-EM5/203075976 

You are right to want to address moisture issues. I had a friend whose pickup truck exhaust rotted off the truck... twice, while it was sitting in his pole barn. The barn had a concrete floor, with no ventilation.

The best way to prevent moisture from accumulating is good air flow through the building. To that point, what kind of soffit / ridge vents does the building have?

Another thing to consider is a Car Bag / Car Jacket. I used those when I lived in Ohio during the time I stored the vehicles in the winter months. You place dessicant containers in the bag with the car and it absorbs any moisture. Here's a link: https://www.carbag.com/carjacket/


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## Tom153 (Nov 10, 2016)

I don't know what your soil layers are, but here's what I suspect from your description: Since your garage foundation is below grade, and there is no foundation drain, water can percolate underground, thru the soil. The water will try to percolate upward to the highest level of your property. Since your slab is below grade, the water will seek to flow up to the top of the slab. It can percolate underneath your foundation and up towards the slab.

I think you should consider installing a foundation drain along the entire periphery of the foundation, down to the lowest footing, and direct it out towards the low point in your property. Be careful that you don't direct the water unto you neighbor's or city property where it will cause damage. A careful assessment should be made, where the water will go. 

An alternative, or possibly also do: Install a french drain across the slope to cut off the underground water flow. You will have to go deep, probably below the level of your foundation footing, so that the water flows into the drain pipe, and not percolate upward. It would be best to get a geotechnical engineer's assessment/design, for location, length and depth. Typically a french drain has a perforated pipe at the bottom of the trench, surrounded by gravel, sand and perhaps fabric to keep fines out of the pipe. Backfill the trench with gravel, so that all water, surface as well as underground will be intercepted and redirected to the pipe. You could probably look up some french drain designs on the web.

Water seeks the path of least resistance, and since your slab is below grade, the water will seek to flow up to the surface of the slab, where it has zero resistance; Like a spring, only much reduced volume; because it has to percolate thru the soil. Curious if you know the soil layers, when they dug the trench for the footing. Is is all clay, or are there layers of sand, silt, gravel..etc. water will percolate faster thru sand, and gravel, and silt, faster than clay. Actually clay is almost impervious, so it can trap moisture in a pervious layer of silt, sand and gravel, and if sloped, even give it some hydraulic pressure.

As for splashing on the siding, perhaps your eves are too short, or your gutters are clogged? You might think about putting some brick or rock facing for maybe 3 feet up the wall.

Just some ideas. Don't let it go for years without addressing it.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Tom153 said:


> I don't know what your soil layers are, but here's what I suspect from your description: Since your garage foundation is below grade, and there is no foundation drain, water can percolate underground, thru the soil. The water will try to percolate upward to the highest level of your property. Since your slab is below grade, the water will seek to flow up to the top of the slab. It can percolate underneath your foundation and up towards the slab.
> 
> I think you should consider installing a foundation drain along the entire periphery of the foundation, down to the lowest footing, and direct it out towards the low point in your property. Be careful that you don't direct the water unto you neighbor's or city property where it will cause damage. A careful assessment should be made, where the water will go.
> 
> ...


It's about 12 to 15 in of sand and then clay underneath that. They put the slab basically on top of that. They graded off some of the top layer of the sand but otherwise they were pouring the gravel on top of that and then the concrete mix. In fact you could see the roots hanging out of the sides of the ground when they dug the trench for the footing.

The water was splashing up on the OSB before they even finished framing the garage. That's how close it was to grade. They basically excavated some of the land away from the garage so it didn't look like it was below-grade but it was.


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## Tom153 (Nov 10, 2016)

The sand layer on top or, between clay will act like an aquifer. Almost like a pipe. If you build something that cuts into that sand layer, the water will percolate in the sand layer and into whatever cuts into it. A french drain that cuts thru the sand layer, and directs the water "around" your garage should keep water from percolating up into your garage. Or a foundation drain, which is what a foundation drain does.


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## RetroJoe_1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Tom153 said:


> The sand layer on top or, between clay will act like an aquifer. Almost like a pipe. If you build something that cuts into that sand layer, the water will percolate in the sand layer and into whatever cuts into it. A french drain that cuts thru the sand layer, and directs the water "around" your garage should keep water from percolating up into your garage. Or a foundation drain, which is what a foundation drain does.


Someone mentioned a curtain drain dug about 24 inches down. .Does that sound right?


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