# Well Water, Fluctuating Water Pressure, and the Roller Coaster Pressure Gauge



## huuuss

All - i'm hoping some veterans can help me understand whether i have a problem.

my house is on a well water system. the water pressure fluctuates with use. for instance, when i open a tap and run cold water, i can see the water flow fluctuate. the water flow doesn't go down to zero, but the drop is visually noticeable and then it will increase to the high end and then drop again to the low end - it does this consistently like a cycle.

when i open the tap like mentioned above, the water pressure gauge fluctuates between 38 psi and 58 psi over the course of 10 seconds. so maybe a better way to put it is that the pressure will spike at 58 psi and then over the course of around 5 seconds, the pressure reading will drop to 38 psi, and then over the next 5 seconds steadily rise to 58 psi. this process repeats itself when water is constantly drawn. this makes sense because it reflects the flow at the tap. is this normal? during this pressure fluctuation, i hear a fairly audible click. i'm guessing this click is the pressure switch cycling at the cut on/cut off pressures (or whatever they are called). i don't know. it just seems like it shouldn't have to cycle this frequently as i'm guessing this means the pump is turning on/off that frequently.

any feedback is appreciated. thanks.


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## Plumbvoltage

If you have a bladder type well tank it sounds like either it lost its pressure(2lbs. less than the pump cut in) or the bladder is ruptured. I just recently had my well tank go bad, ruptured bladder. If you have a tire pressure gauge you can check it. Turn off the water and drain off the water pressure to the well tank and check the pressure at the tire valve on top. If your cut in pressure is say 30psi the tank should have 28psi. If water comes out the tire valve the bladder is ruptured.


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## kb3ca

*Well Water, Fluctuating Pressure*

Your pressure tank is water logged, meaning there is little or no air in the top. If it's a bladder tank then the bladder is ruptured and the tank will need to be replaced. If it's the older, bladder-less style you will need to drain the tank, reinsert air into it, then refill with water.


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## huuuss

*more info and a question for the vets*

i have a well-x-trol wx-203, so it is the bladder version. is there any reason (safety?), i shouldn't check the pressure when there is water in the tank? i'm assuming i'll get a faulty air pressure reading because the water is forcing the air into a smaller space, but i want to see if water vapor comes out of the air valve to see if the bladder is the problem. this seems like a simpler check then what i'm assuming i would have to do to check the actual air pressure in the tank, i.e. shut off the pump (and the water heater?), drain the water from the system, and then check the air pressure (and then turn the pump back on to refill the system when finished with the air pressure check).


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## Daniel Holzman

You can check the pressure when there is water in the tank, I did this the other day on my tank, which happens to be the same model you have. Must be a popular tank. The pressure in the tank will vary between the low cutoff, which in my case is 35 pis, and the high cutoff, which is 60 psi on my system, so the pressure you measure will be a function of what point in the cycle you measure it at. However, even if the tank is waterlogged (and I totally agree with previous posters, it sounds like it certainly is), you are still going to get a pressure reading fluctuating between low cutoff and high cutoff due to pump pressure, as long as there is even a small amount of air in the tank. And based on your description, there must be some air in the system, although not much from the sounds of it.

I don't think you are going to see water vapor coming out of the valve, and no, you will not get a faulty reading, it will reflect the pressure of the air in the tank, as long as there is at least some air in the system. The check previously described, i.e. drain the tank, measures the residual pressure in the bladder, which will be listed on your tank (mine is pre-pressurized to 30 psi), is the definitive test, because if the bladder is ruptured, or most of the air has leaked out, you will have less than the design residual pressure when the water is drained. And there is no need to turn off the water heater as long as you do the test quickly, i.e. don't leave an empty water heater for more than a few minutes. But it should take only a minute or so to run the test from the time you drain the system.


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## kb3ca

You can depress the air valve momentarily to see if water comes out but there will be no water present unless the tank is completely full of water and no air. I don't believe this is the case based on what you have described. I believe your bladder is ruptured and water has replaced a large portion of the air and that is why your pump is short cycling. The only way to get an accurate check is to turn off the pump, drain all the water out of the pressure tank and then check the air pressure. It should be 2 pounds lower than the cut-in pressure of your switch. I went through this exact scenario just recently. I had a WellXTrol tank that had a bad bladder, was 19 years old and had some rust at the base. It had probably been bad for some time with a ruptured bladder but like yours it kept working with fluctuating water pressure. If you get a new tank I would recommend getting a 40/60 psi tank and pressure switch. I had a 30/50 psi set-up and I really noticed a nice difference with the higher pressure.


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## Plumber101

As ol' Dan must not be a well man.

First depress the valve core to see if you get water if you do the tank is water logged and needs to be replaced. Sounds like you have but there may be a restriction in the nipple/fitting going into the pressure switch

If you get no water out the valve stem then completely, I'll say this again completely drain the system and check pressure. The pressure has to be set 2 psi below the pressure switch cut in pressure. Also check for a restriction to the pressure switch. Alot of well guys use glav pipe which will corrode and cause a build un in the pipe to the pressure switch. Use brass

If it is a 40/60 switch set at 38 psi
If it is a 30/50 switch set at 28 psi


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## huuuss

thanks for all the feedback folks. much appreciated. ok, based on the above comments, i have one observation that probably will show my ignorance on this stuff, but here it goes. when i knock the side of the tank starting at the bottom moving towards the top, there's a dull thunk until about 1/3 or 40% of the way up at which point the knock turns into kind of a hollow ting - the change in sound happens to coincide with an external rib in the tank. to me, this suggests the transition between where there's water and where there's air in the tank, and possibly, the location of where the bladder is attached to the tank. when i read 'water logged,' i'm assuming the tank would be practically full of water, so does this test suggest that the bladder is still in tact considering the tank seems to be about ~33-40% full of water @ 50 psi?

one more observation. after running the tap and then turning it off, the pressure guage read 50 psi. within 1-2 minutes and without running any water, the pressure is now sitting at a shade above 40 psi. and eventually, the pressure dips enough to trigger the pressure switch. this cycle repeats even when there is no intentionally running water. is this pressure loss normal? do you all still think the bladder could explain this - if this is an issue? or do i have more than 1 issue? i would think that when no water is running, the system is closed between the pump and any of the faucets/toilets/hose bibs/etc., and as a result, would stay at a constant pressure (or close to it) over that time frame. shouldn't the pressure hold for a much longer period of time assuming no water flow, i.e. leaks perhaps?


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## kb3ca

Now you've added another variable to the equation that we didn't know before. The water pressure should not bleed down substantually with no water being drawn. Most systems I've seen have two check valves in them, one at the pressure tank and one on top of the pump. These valves close off the supply line from the pump to prevent water from going back into the well. Sounds like you are leaking water back into the well because one of these is defective.
As far as tapping the side of the tank goes, mine sounded like it had 2/3 water and 1/3 air but the bladder was ruptured. 
Based on this new information I would say you need to replace a check valve and hope it isn't the one on top of the pump.
Good luck.


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## kb3ca

One last thought. Make CERTAIN there isn't a toilet leaking somewhere or some other slow leak before you jump into the water pressure problem. That, too, would cause your pressure to bleed down slowly as you indicated.


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## huuuss

k - for the leak input, thanks. i think i'm ok on the pump side because i had shut off the supply to the house side and there was no pressure loss (at least for the 15 minutes or so i kept an eye on it, which was much better than the 4-5 minutes it was taking to drop 10 psi of pressure with the valve supplying the house open), so i'm guessing i do have a leaking toilet to address. i think i'll shut off the house supply tonight, and see if there's any significant pressure loss in the morning (probably a good 8 hours if not more under pressure without the house as a variable) - if not, i'd tend to believe the pump side is ok. i'll check out the toilet situation, and i think i know enough to determine whether the tank's bladder or air pressue is the problem.

thanks all for the feedback. any other thoughts are obviously welcome. i'll post my results as i get a chance to check things off the troubleshooting list you have all helped me develop (though this might be intermittent over the next few weeks).


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## Plumber101

If you turn on the cold water do you get any warm water out? Might take a minute or two with the water running?


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## Daniel Holzman

A leak sufficiently large to explain the rapid pressure loss should certainly be obvious by listening to the main drain in the house in the basement. You would hear water running down it. Not to repeat the obvious, but when you have no faucets open, there should be NO water running down the main drain, if there is it is likely a leaky toilet.


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## PLAIN O TX

I used to live in the country and found the well water table dependend on the baromectric pressure. Could this be a problem?


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## piercekiltoff

No, this problem doesn't relate to atmospheric pressure.

You have two problems.

First, the short cycling is caused by a bad pressure tank or low air pressure in the tank. The model tank you have is a diaphragm tank that should have about 9 gallons of draw down in it given the pressure range you cited - meaning that the pump should fill the tank with 9 gallons of water, then shut off once the system reaches peak pressure. If you can run the tap for only 10 seconds (probably a 2 GPM fixture), you're only getting 1/3 of a gallon draw down out of the tank before the pump turns back on -therefore the tank is the culprit, either by being busted or there's not enough air pressure in the tank.

Second - The 1 to 2 minute pressure loss is caused by a leak, obviously not a HUGE leak, since it's obviously only leaking 1/3 of a gallon over that 1 to 2 minute period. The leak could be in the well casing due to a leak in the drop pipe, or faulty check valves. Or, it could be under ground between the well and the home. Or...it could be in the home. 

Unless I missed where you proved that the tank was good, by draining the water, adding air pressure to the tank, and double checking that the diaphragm did in fact hold air pressure with no water pressure in the system, I'd fix problem one first, before your well pump motor goes out.

My two cents as a professional is probably worth a bit more than the governments two cents 

Oh, and those tanks are popular with the professionals because Amtrol (Well X Trol) invented the diaphragm/bladder tank 50+- years ago, and they provide 5 year manufacturers warranties.

Pierce K
Certified Well Driller (NGWA)


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## TazinCR

As Pierce K said you have a tank problem. You can charge it with a compressor or air tank and if the bladder is bad you will have to do it again in a 2-3 weeks. You can charge the system and buy some time and maybe save your pump. This constant starting and stopping will cause premature failure not to mention higher electric bills.


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## Gary Slusser

Dittos.

There should be one check valve on a submersible pump system, and it is in/on the outlet of the pump. More than one hides water leaks and causes other problems.

When checking air pressure, the tank has to be empty or you read water pressure and the reading will equal the water pressure gauge.

When you drain the pressure tank, shut off the water to the house and you don't drain any water out of anything in the house past the pressure tank.


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## piercekiltoff

Gary Slusser said:


> Dittos.
> 
> There should be one check valve on a submersible pump system, and it is in/on the outlet of the pump. More than one hides water leaks and causes other problems.
> 
> When checking air pressure, the tank has to be empty or you read water pressure and the reading will equal the water pressure gauge.
> 
> When you drain the pressure tank, shut off the water to the house and you don't drain any water out of anything in the house past the pressure tank.


Well, I disagree with the check valve thing - if you don't put one right below the pit-less adapter inside the well, you run the potential for the system to form a vacuum that will pull contaminants into the well from the surface.

Additionally, most manufacturers recommend check valves every 200 feet, though I'm a proponent of installing them every 100, along with a black rubber centralizer and/or torque arrest. However, I'm a bit of an over-achiever when it comes to pumps.

Pierce K, CWD
JKA Well Drilling, Monroe WA


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## Gary Slusser

piercekiltoff said:


> Well, I disagree with the check valve thing - if you don't put one right below the pit-less adapter inside the well, you run the potential for the system to form a vacuum that will pull contaminants into the well from the surface.
> 
> Additionally, most manufacturers recommend check valves every 200 feet, though I'm a proponent of installing them every 100, along with a black rubber centralizer and/or torque arrest. However, I'm a bit of an over-achiever when it comes to pumps.
> 
> Pierce K, CWD
> JKA Well Drilling, Monroe WA


Fair enough and I'll do my logical best to convince you it is a mistake to add check valves. But I know there is a state somewhere in the midwest that requires one at the pitless. And pump manufacturers... I think they have a deal with check valve and fitting guys.

If you add others you hide any and all water leaks between them and the one in/on the sub pump, and then you can not see any evidence of a leak unless you notice air/dirt in the water, right? Isn't that going to allow a possible contamination with no way to know it exists?

Also, we both know water is not compressible, so when the one check valve in/on the submersible pump closes, no water moves until a fixture in the house is used. So how do you get any suction to be able to enter and then contaminate the water in the pipe UNLESS you have a water leak AND someway for air to enter the line?

Now in my opinion, you want to know about all the leaks ASAP and without being able to fid evidence of a leak is not a god thing. 

And pump thrust bearings/washers don't like the pump starting when not under pressure. Most check valves have a 5 psi cracking pressure, meaning that adds to the head of the system. 

So to me there is no gain by adding additional check valves and doing so can cause hiden leaks, they are expensive to buy and for the labor to install them. And where I'm from, PA, we had the largest number of rural population (on wells) in the US until the 2000 census was complied and TX surpassed PA. The majority of wells in PA are rock bore wells and we used one continuous piece of PE pipe from the pitless to 500' with up to 2.0 hp pumps. That has been done for over 45 years, or since PE pipe was invented, and we didn't add check valves, because they hide leaks until someone complaines of low flow from the system, by then the hole is fairly large and has been leaking for some time. How am I doing? :wink:


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## piercekiltoff

Gary Slusser said:


> Fair enough and I'll do my logical best to convince you it is a mistake to add check valves. But I know there is a state somewhere in the midwest that requires one at the pitless. And pump manufacturers... I think they have a deal with check valve and fitting guys.


Probably true. Our local code doesn't have one thing or another to say about pumps, but it's pretty well common practice around here. Additionally, I think I started installing checks below the pitless because of the literature provided by the National Ground Water Association.



Gary Slusser said:


> If you add others you hide any and all water leaks between them and the one in/on the sub pump, and then you can not see any evidence of a leak unless you notice air/dirt in the water, right? Isn't that going to allow a possible contamination with no way to know it exists?


True, you can theoretically hide leaks - though it should be pretty obvious that you're losing flow and the amp draw is down, indicating that there's either a leak in the drop pipe or that the water end in the pump is junk. If you've got leaks in the drop pipe, the worst case scenario is that you'll draw contaminants from one end of the well to the other end - not a concern, since it's already one big system. Without the check valves, you could suck water from a swampy area that the water line travels through, down into the ground water table/well.

The reality is this - if there's a leak in the drop pipe, and you've protected yourself from sucking contaminants in the well, you should notice the leak and be able to pull the pump to repair it. If you haven't protected the well from contaminants, you should notice the leak and have to pull the pump to repair it, AND clean the well out.



Gary Slusser said:


> Also, we both know water is not compressible, so when the one check valve in/on the submersible pump closes, no water moves until a fixture in the house is used. So how do you get any suction to be able to enter and then contaminate the water in the pipe UNLESS you have a water leak AND someway for air to enter the line?


I actually had originally wrote that message with a sentence saying "we both know that the scenario is somewhat contrived, but plausible"....Maybe I should have left it?

I have zero faith in the check valves that are installed by the pump manufacturers - I routinely install a check valve 20 feet above the pump. I've seen those check valves blown apart, hammered into the water end of the pump, or otherwise broken/destroyed/faulty.

Assume that the owner installs zero extra check valves, only the one in the pump end, and that check valve breaks - thereby causing the pumped water to siphon back down the bore. However, his plumber installed on right before the pressure switch. AND, there's a leaky line located about 20 feet from the house, in a roof drainage area, that also happens to be within 5 feet of a septic line. Because of the check before the switch, the system never notices the pressure drop caused by the water siphoning back. I've had many clients who say they've never noticed air in the system, even when the check valve is broken and the thing is siphoning back. I'm not sure how they don't notice, other than they may have a leaky toilet or something similar?

Realistically, they would never notice the leak that is underground, because the downspouts are draining there - which is also allowing for the leak to suck contaminants in. Seeing a septic line within 5 feet of the entrance of the water line is definitely not unheard of, in fact I'd say is quite common.



Gary Slusser said:


> Now in my opinion, you want to know about all the leaks ASAP and without being able to fid evidence of a leak is not a god thing.


I agree - you do want to know ASAP - especially with the amount of power consumed by some of the newer VFD pumps if they're in a constant run state.



Gary Slusser said:


> And pump thrust bearings/washers don't like the pump starting when not under pressure. Most check valves have a 5 psi cracking pressure, meaning that adds to the head of the system.


I've definitely pulled more failed pumps with not enough check valves, than failed pumps with a lot of check valves. 

This also becomes a question of proper pumping system design - if you don't calculate head pressure, pumping water level, static water level, etc. you're not designing the system right. I'm a firm believer in test pumping every well prior to pump system design. Also, the owner should have a clear idea of their water use. Typically, my competition just installs 10 GPM pumps - which is like installing a 100 amp electrical service in every house - sure, it works for most people, but if you want that media room, good luck!



Gary Slusser said:


> So to me there is no gain by adding additional check valves and doing so can cause hiden leaks, they are expensive to buy and for the labor to install them. And where I'm from, PA, we had the largest number of rural population (on wells) in the US until the 2000 census was complied and TX surpassed PA. The majority of wells in PA are rock bore wells and we used one continuous piece of PE pipe from the pitless to 500' with up to 2.0 hp pumps. That has been done for over 45 years, or since PE pipe was invented, and we didn't add check valves, because they hide leaks until someone complaines of low flow from the system, by then the hole is fairly large and has been leaking for some time. How am I doing? :wink:


Interesting. The only time any of the installers around here use PE pipe is when the well has limited access. In fact, if the well has PE in it, we generally can assume that the owner installed the pump - professionals around here won't go near the stuff. However, we predominately have casing driven wells - meaning we drill 6" bores, and case them WHILE drilling, like the old cable tools. Once we hit water, we telescope a 5" stainless screen in. Our experience has been that a pump on PE in a 6" bore tends to move too much, resulting in wire rub and/or the motor banging around due to torque. Plus, I just can't stand working with that stuff.

I'd say the average life span for all the pumps here is 15 years - we like to see 20. What is the designed/average life span in PA?

Alternatively, I have looked at it a lot more recently, just as a method to reduce costs - especially in combination with the Grundfos soft starts or Franklin's MonoDrive systems. Also, there's the Boreline flexible drop pipe system, but they want something like $8 per foot for 1" pipe.


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## huuuss

well folks. i think it is pretty much official that the bladder in my tank is shot. as soon as the tire pressure gauge hit the valve, water went flying, and i'm not talking about the vapor variety.

i found the same tank, well-x-trol wx-203, for $300, which seems like a fair price. i think i might take a shot at replacing it, although i obviously haven't done it before. i think the two things that concern me the most if i take this on is removing the piping to get the tank out and whether it is a good idea to try and reuse that piping assembly including switch/pressure gauge with the new tank. any thoughts? everything is probably about 18 years old, the same as the house, as i'm guessing this is all original stuff. i'm guessing i should just bite the bullet and replace, but who knows, maybe that isn't necessary.

how much do you think it would cost if i hired someone to do it? how long does it take assuming it's just a clean remove and install? there's adequate space to access it.


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## piercekiltoff

I did two 82 gallon tanks yesterday, including adding new pipe & unions into the PVC manifold. 2.5 hours, working at a pretty slow pace. The hard part was moving the other two water logged bladder tanks.

$300 is a very low price for that tank - nearly wholesale.

I'd replace the switch, relief, and install a liquid filled pressure gauge. Then you only have to worry about the pump and pump controller as possible issues.



huuuss said:


> well folks. i think it is pretty much official that the bladder in my tank is shot. as soon as the tire pressure gauge hit the valve, water went flying, and i'm not talking about the vapor variety.
> 
> i found the same tank, well-x-trol wx-203, for $300, which seems like a fair price. i think i might take a shot at replacing it, although i obviously haven't done it before. i think the two things that concern me the most if i take this on is removing the piping to get the tank out and whether it is a good idea to try and reuse that piping assembly including switch/pressure gauge with the new tank. any thoughts? everything is probably about 18 years old, the same as the house, as i'm guessing this is all original stuff. i'm guessing i should just bite the bullet and replace, but who knows, maybe that isn't necessary.
> 
> how much do you think it would cost if i hired someone to do it? how long does it take assuming it's just a clean remove and install? there's adequate space to access it.


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## kb3ca

I replaced everything when I did mine. Around here we use a check valve just before the pressure switch. My pressure tank and hot water heater were 19 years old so I replaced everything at the same time even though the WH was still working.


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## Gary Slusser

piercekiltoff said:


> Probably true. Our local code doesn't have one thing or another to say about pumps, but it's pretty well common practice around here. Additionally, I think I started installing checks below the pitless because of the literature provided by the National Ground Water Association.
> 
> I'd say the average life span for all the pumps here is 15 years - we like to see 20. What is the designed/average life span in PA?
> 
> Alternatively, I have looked at it a lot more recently, just as a method to reduce costs - especially in combination with the Grundfos soft starts or Franklin's MonoDrive systems. Also, there's the Boreline flexible drop pipe system, but they want something like $8 per foot for 1" pipe.


With just the check valve at the pump, if there is a leak the tank empties under pressure down to the cut in and the pump comes on repressurizing things. There will not be a siphon of any outside water getting in in most cases. And people can hear the switch clicking and see the pressure going down and up, or notice a higher electric bill; all evidence of a leak. If there is other check valves, you get a siphon. The pump doesn't run, the gauge holds steady, the electric bill remains the same and there is no way to see evidence of a leak. I've seen one leak between a well and the house. I saw many in the well, 99% was the check valve. And one wet end with a hole worn it in and a nylon male adpter cracked.

We had 40-70' of 6" casing with static level usually 30'-60' and pumps usually lasted 15-20 yrs with some 30+. I only saw one pump on anything other than 160 psi PE. It was a 1.5 hp at 585' on gaqlvanized. I had a Pul-A-Pump machine I could take off the truck alone on ramps and wheel it to a well (only had to 3-4 times because I could get my 4x4 PU to the well) and set it on the casing and pull at 50' a minute. I never tried it but it was rated at 1000 lbs. Many wells you wouldn't be able to get a pump hoist truck to. I never saw a hole in PE but there were spots on cable that was not taped right or didn't have cable guards every 20'. Few had torque arrestors.


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## Rjordan

I am having a simliar problem with well pressure gauge fluctuating. Can anyone tell me where the other check valve would be, if not on the top of the submerged pump?


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