# should i attempt my own roof?



## elementx440

Everyone keeps saying I should do my own roof, that it's "not too hard", blah blah blah... I've read a few how-to roofing books, and I'm starting to wonder. 

I'll have a labor force of... one (me). 
25 squares of tear off/new roof, 1 story, low pitch.

i have sat/sun free to work, and maybe 1-3 hours weekday mornings before work.

I saw a time estimate for a DIYer, it was .5hour/square tear off, 2hour/square application... so I'm looking at 63+ hours of work, probably close to 75hours I'd say. 

Can this be done, or am I crazy for considering it?

As far as I'm concerned, it can take as long as it needs to... I'm in no rush. I could do it in 4 main sections.

Once you do a tear off and put down the felt paper, how long can that stay uncovered by shingles? Indefinately?


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## mcvane

I dont' know...

If you have any weird feelings at the top of your house (i.e. feel dizzy or something), then I wouldn't do it!

I helped a friend roof and I was mostly cleaning up the old shingles he threw down from the roof. As for going up, I went up about 8 ladder steps and could not imagine being on the roof...let alone doing any roofing!

The angle of the roof was also a scary thought for me...


So, for fear of your own safety, if you prefer to stay on level ground, hire someone to do it. I'm generally cheap, but if I had to do the roof...I would gladly pay big bucks!

My opinion though


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## Ed the Roofer

Every single person I know who attempted to do their own tear-off, even with helpers, either gave up and called in a roofer to finish the job.

Or they did do it, but as the body started aching more and more from using muscles they never used before, they started taking crappy short cuts. They didn't pull out all of the old nails from the original roof. They ran into delaminated deck sheathing, which became too much more to bother with, so went unrepaired, and the time it took was way more than any of them had counted on.

The time estimates may, and I stress may, be accurate for someone who does this on a regular basis and knows at least somewhat what they are doing from previous experiences.

Plan on not having any personal time for at least twice as long as you originally estimated, and also to be panicking every time there is any forecast for rain in the near future.

No, felt paper is not water proof. It sheds the water downward, but when saturated it will leak through, especially on a lower pitched walkable roof. Plus, ther are holes all over it from either nailing it down or slap tacking with staples all over the place. Plus, when walking all over it, you will probably tear it in many places, which all could be a major gusher inside your home.

25 squares is 75 bundles at between 80 pounds to 90 pounds per bundle, which all have to be picked up and moved around. The more you pick the bundles up, the more the wrapper breaks and they lose their rigidity and are harder and harder to carry.

Now, you have a better, realistic understanding about what confronts you. It is your back, knees, and knuckles and proper fall protection while working along the eave and rake edges, since you are not accustomed to doing this type of work. How is your vertigo or fear of falling?

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer

What happened to the 2 contractors you had come out to give you an estimate earlier on?

Ed


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## RooferJim

Hey some folks would do there own heart surgery to save a few bucks. 

RooferJim


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## warnerww

25 square is a lot. If you had a few friends to help you I would say GO FOR IT. My brother is a roofer and he laughs at me every time I do a job. This guy is amazing. He can put down a roof straighter and faster alone than I can with a helper. You can do it yourself if you want to. Just know that roofing is a very fiscally thing to do and if it is not a simple run knowledge is important. Anybody can put roofing down on a simple roof. However If you have questions make sure you know what to do before you start.


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## sedwick

I replaced my roof last year, i put down 24 square. Tear off and everything, plus install flat between house and carport makeing and extra room about 200square feet. I had a roofer help putting up the flat and roofing it but then he quit on me, kinda pissed me off. Had to do the rest by myself, had one very inexperinced helper maybe 20% of the time, and a lift for the shingles. It took about a month working on it on sundays and a little in the evening durring the week. Felt paper was exposed for about a week on one side and about two weeks on the other, got wet from the morning due, and i think it rained on it once on twice. It would wrinkle up in the morning and when it dried durring the day it would flatten out, it was flat and no holes when i put my shingles down, it looks perfect to me. I was surprised because i am in no way a roofer or builder. I still like finish mudding my dry wall and putting tile down, been messing with this new room for a year now. I'll agree that it takes all of your personal time, stress and hard labor, but it will be worth it when its done.


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## cibula11

Roofing may be one of the most physically taxing construction jobs that exist. If you have never done a roof before, I would say don't attempt unless someone helping you has had some experience. I'm sure you can make it look fine, but there are a lot of details that a novice would not know. By brother and I spent a day and a half doing about 10 sq. That included tearing off and putting back on. 

Unless you can finish a job within a couple of days, don't attempt. Rain will penetrate the paper and you then have several hundred or thousand dollars in damage to your roof. It is not something that can be figured out on the way. 

On the other hand, IF you have 3 or 4 guys that aren't afraid of some aches and pains and good hard work, and you have someone with some experiencem, go for it. 

Other things to consider are:
Where will you dump the old shingles....renting a dumpster could run between $200-400 depending on how large you go.

You will most likely need pneumatic nailers and a compressor to do the job quickly. If you don't have one you will have to rent one. 

You have to think about the possibility of having damaged sheeting that needs replaced once the old roof is off.

You will need to install new drip edge and/or apron, paper, and vents.

Is all that worth saving maybe $1,000-$2,000 (minus all the equipt. you may need to rent) doing it on your own??


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## Ed the Roofer

Felt paper which gets wet, even from morning dew/condensation becomes wrinkly and deformed upon drying. It does not lie down flat again, unless you cut out all of the bubbled up pockets.

The deflections from the felt paper will eventually telegraph through the new shingles, especially a flatter 3-tab style more so than a heavier architectural style shingle, which will make the new roof look like you roofed over pockets of debris. 

If you do choose to do this, by enough 20" x 16" blue/brown/ or silver tarps from Menards or Home Depot or Lowes when they are on sale to cover up the felt paper every night and nail boards along the tarps perimeter edges so they dont blow off and put several bundles of shingle on the center portions to keep from bellowing up, but be very careful, as tarps are like a slip and slide when wet, even on a low walk on pitch roof.

Or, you can upgrade to the very costly synthetic felt paper to avoid the wrinkling from moisture.

Ed


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## Ron6519

I've read hopeful posts and enthusiastic posts, but this one is nuts. You won't know how nuts it is until about maybe the end of the first day. 
Tell all the little voices of yours to come and help for a day and see how many of those clowns open their mouths again.
If you want to get a feel for it, do your garage . Then reevaluate the process with some experience.
Ron


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## Ed the Roofer

No, it is not beyond a diligent and hard working mans capabilities.

The time frame factors and the potential weather hazards are more critical due to the length of time it will take.

By the way, if you decide to get some day labor neighborhood help on this project, especially for the tear-off portion, please do youself a MAJOR favor and contact your homeowners insurance agent and discuss liability insurance or an umbrella policy for the possibility of someone sustaining any type of an injury.

I am sure you would not like to lose your home for the sake of saving the cost of labor by doing your own roofing work.

In 29 years of roofing, and 23 years with my own company, the only 2 major injuries occured on walkable pitch roofs.

The one cost $ 487,000.00 in liability to the insurance company and the other one, for "just" a broken hand, cost a little over $ 100,000.00. Neither workers were being careless and OSHA did not fine me, because we had all safety requirements in place, but accidents do happen, usually when you least expect them to occur.

Ed


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## warnerww

Again 25 square is a lot if you do not have the time you should probably contract it out. I think you need to look at how much $$$ you will save. If it is a lot to you then it is something you can do. You could take your old roof off in portions. You do not have to rip it all off at once. I live in a rural area in Washington State and dump fees are quite reasonable. A truck full of roofing will cost you $16 to get rid of.


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## mikemy6

Who's everyone?, and when are they coming to help. Ripping off a roof is a whole different animal. It aint just back to the sun and shoot the gun.


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## ncgrogan

If I were going to reroof my house, I would use a Grace or Tamko underlayment (ie. Ice and Water Shield). This will give you much more time to finish the project (believe its 60 days exposure or so) but you have to be careful, those modifieds with polyethylene faces will act not only as a water barrier, but also an air barrier and vapor barrier. Could be bad for condensation depending on your local. If thats the case you could try some of these new underlayments like titanium udl which is similar to building wrap and will not act as a mositure barrier (although ive never tried these products)


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## elementx440

Well I've decided that I can easily split the job safely into four weekend long projects of 7 or so square each. Between two young guys I think it's doable. I have a few buddies that do roofing, I'll call them up if I need a 3rd or a consultant.

I'm playing with some estimates, I'm thinking about $2400 out the door for shingles, felt paper, iceguard, drip edge, flashing, vents, and another air nailer. I'll hold onto the debris until I get my next 40-yard dumpster in a few weeks.



ncgrogan said:


> If I were going to reroof my house, I would use a Grace or Tamko underlayment (ie. Ice and Water Shield).


Are you saying you'd apply that to the WHOLE house? Or just the first few feet around the perimeter?


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## warnerww

Happy to hear you are going for it. Just remember when you are getting tired $$$$$$$$$. Roofing is Physically demanding and in some cases you need an expert. But many times it is simply a lot of hard work.


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## NateHanson

I'm considering doing my own roof as well. It's a 5:12 pitch, and it's probably 20 squares, but the design is such that I could do a number of 1 or 2 square sections at a time, and once I've got the basic process down, there will be 3 sections of about 3-4 squares to finish up. 

So I think I could knock this project off a day at a time on my own over the course of a month, tearing off as I go. 

The questions I have: 

What sort of fall-protection gear should I purchase? (it's a low pitch, but 3 stories, so the highest fall could be 35 feet, and my wife would kill me if I died)

How much would a lift cost to get the bundles of shingles up on the roof? Is it reasonable to consider buying one? I figure for a long project like this, renting wouldn't be reasonable.


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## Ed the Roofer

If a "True" roofing supply house distributor is in your area, and if they will sell direct to homeowners, thenget the shingles delivered via roof stock right up on the roof for delivery. I am not referring to Home Depot, Lowes or Menards as the "True" roofing supply houses.

National Suyppliers are:

ABC Roofing Supply
Allied Building Products
Bradco Roofing Supply

A rope and safety harness with a shock absorbing lanyard attached costs between $ 180.00 to $ 275.00 at your local Menards and also the roofing supply house probably sells them too. Get the full leg and body harness version and not the belt only version.

They are called fall arrest safety systems.

If you have to, then check out some e-bay stores that sell safety fall arrest equipment.

Ed


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## NateHanson

Thanks Ed. 

I suspect my local builders supply yards (Ellsworth Building 
Supply, or Viking Lumber) will deliver to the roof (they deliver everything for free with a boom truck. Not sure if they have trucks that can reach the roof, but I'd guess so. 

My question with that was how to secure 100 bundles of shingles on various parts of the roof for weeks or a month. Won't they get in the way as I tear off sections? And if one slipped off, it could crush one of my kids, or, worse, kill the dog! Am I over-thinking this? Should I just put roof jacks in a couple places and stack the bundles there?


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## RippySkippy

lay a bundle or two on the roof perpendicular to the ridge. move them up and down so the top of the bundle makes a fairly level line to the ridge top. Put a single bundle up a bit to make a center point. Lay the bundles on top of the two piles already down onto the ridge. As for securing...they aint going anywhere. 

Your priorities are a bit messed up with regards to the kids and dogs...I would think killing a kid would trump the dog...but who am I? Yes you are over thinking this. Get your buddies, air nailers and get to work....it can be a good time if you let it...hard work yes...but it can also be fun.


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## NateHanson

RippySkippy said:


> Your priorities are a bit messed up with regards to the kids and dogs...I would think killing a kid would trump the dog...but who am I? Yes you are over thinking this. Get your buddies, air nailers and get to work....it can be a good time if you let it...hard work yes...but it can also be fun.


Ok, so I'm no comedian, is that what you're saying?  It was a joke. 

I can't quite follow your description of stacking the bundles.


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## Ed the Roofer

Although your local lumber yard may have boom trucks, I daoubt that they would be able to safely reach a 3 story building. They have to have unobstructed clearance and be quite close to the roof perimeter edes.

Preferably you do not want the shingle to be getting unloaded at the bottom edge/eave-gutter edge as you would still have to carry up each bundle and spread them arount yoursef.

The delivery companies and their services I mentioned will load the roof for you with there employees for about .50 cents or slightly more per bundle. It is the best money ever spent as far as my back and arms are concerned.

You can do about 25 % of the tear-off and then use the Ice and water shield along the gutter eave edge as specified and then felt in the remainder of the decking, provided it is in good shape and does not require replacement. If you have several helpers, who ALL should also be supplied with the safety ropes and harnesses, you can have the shingles delivered at that time.

The most qualified guy who can do a good job of shingling can then start shingling while the other helpers continue on with the tear-off and nail removal and decking repair or replacement ice and water shield and felt paper. If the man doing the shingling is a right hander, you will want to start your tear-off from the left gable side working towards the right so that you are not working against yourselves and continually be in each others way.

*3 stories with a 5/12 pitch can still be very very dangerous. Please take all of the safety precautions recomended.*

Do not install those non-functional static air mushroom style vents, but instal the Shingle Vent II, continuous Ridge Vent instead and use 2 1/2" hand roofing nails to secure them and the conciding ridge cap shingle covering in place for a proper attachment.

As stated by the last poster, that is one method of stacking the shingles on the ridge of the roof and another is to have them spread out in mini- piles where they will be needed once the roof is already felted in completely.

You might want to consider splitting the material order in two deliveries if it is a large quantity, so that the material for the last half are not sitting on the roof for a month with the bundle wrappers deteriorating from the sun and blowing around loose shingles from the top of the roof.

Ed


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## ncgrogan

elementx440 said:


> Well I've decided that I can easily split the job safely into four weekend long projects of 7 or so square each. Between two young guys I think it's doable. I have a few buddies that do roofing, I'll call them up if I need a 3rd or a consultant.
> 
> I'm playing with some estimates, I'm thinking about $2400 out the door for shingles, felt paper, iceguard, drip edge, flashing, vents, and another air nailer. I'll hold onto the debris until I get my next 40-yard dumpster in a few weeks.
> 
> 
> Are you saying you'd apply that to the WHOLE house? Or just the first few feet around the perimeter?


Whole house if your going to tackle it by yourself, it provides a good temp roof which will allow you more time to install the shingles, BUT like I said the grace products will act as a vapor barrier so you have to be very careful in your decision to use one, otherwise you will have a mess on your hands if you create a condesation problem. The other caveat is the entire roof has to be completly sealed if you intend for it to serve as a temp roof.


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## NateHanson

Ed the Roofer said:


> A rope and safety harness with a shock absorbing lanyard attached costs between $ 180.00 to $ 275.00 at your local Menards and also the roofing supply house probably sells them too. Get the full leg and body harness version and not the belt only version.


How about this? It's $80! Seems a little too good to be true, but it has good reviews. Any thoughts? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...29751?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance


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## Ed the Roofer

If it is OSHA compliant labeled, then it seems like a very good price.

I prefer to have one to wear and check for comfort, but basically, most of the actual harnesses are real similar.

Its your life to worry about and any of your helpers too.

Try one first before buying several.

Ed

PS. If you would consider spending all of the extra money on a 100 % Grace Ice and Water shield "temporary" roof before you get it shingle, you probably will have spent the same or close to it as the cost of paying someone to roof your house fast enough sa as not to leave it exposed to the elements for your 30 day time frame.

4 square roll of 15 # felt = $ 14.00 = $ 3.50 per square

2 square roll of 30 # felt = $ 14.00 = $ 7.00 per square

2 square roll of I & W shield = $ 90.00 = $ 45.00 per square


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## MJW

From what is being said here so far, none of you should do your own roof. Not to put you down, but it would save you ALOT of time, money and headaches just to hire a good contractor.

This is the most important part of your house. It shouldn't be messed with.
We have had to finish jobs for some homeowners. We normally charge a higher price. Alot of them run into trouble when their help leaves and it starts to rain. Had to bail a guy out in the rain once, and I was not happy. Then he has the nerve to say that there is water stains on his ceiling. aaahhhhh uh, it was your fault doorknob.

I have seen a group of fairly in-shape guys try to do a simple roof on a weekend and they barely had it tore by sunday. Then it sat with no protection.

Besides, you are not licensed, insured, or knowledgable of the trade. Again, not to put down anyone, but it's honesty.


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## Ed the Roofer

I read about home owners all the time, who fell off the ladder cleaning out their gutters or working on their own roof to save some money, but wound up crippled for life or severely injured, without it being a coverable loss as well usually.

If you are Hell Bent on doing this, for Gods sake, please take advice on every potential safety precaution, and get a One Million dollar Umbrella Liability Policy added on to your Home Owners Insurance policy to cover your friends and jelpers in the event that one of them hurts themselves.

It's a 3 story building and there is no such thing as a minor fall from those heights.

Ed


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## warnerww

MJW said:


> From what is being said here so far, none of you should do your own roof. Not to put you down, but it would save you ALOT of time, money and headaches just to hire a good contractor.
> 
> This is the most important part of your house. It shouldn't be messed with.
> We have had to finish jobs for some homeowners. We normally charge a higher price. Alot of them run into trouble when their help leaves and it starts to rain. Had to bail a guy out in the rain once, and I was not happy. Then he has the nerve to say that there is water stains on his ceiling. aaahhhhh uh, it was your fault doorknob.
> 
> I have seen a group of fairly in-shape guys try to do a simple roof on a weekend and they barely had it tore by sunday. Then it sat with no protection.
> 
> Besides, you are not licensed, insured, or knowledgable of the trade. Again, not to put down anyone, but it's honesty.


 
Ok to be honest it is very Important and let me go on record that I am no roofer. My brother is, and their are times he helps me out. However roofing is not rocket science. When my brother became a roofer he had hit hard times. The profession has been good to him. He went from grunt to head man on projects in 8 months (because he showed up every day and did not partake of some bad things). A roof is very important but even a bad field will not leak ( OK, one could, but it would have to be real bad). It is important and takes knowledge when you get in more tricky areas around stuff. That is where my brother really comes in handy. And one thing is true it is a physical occupation. I still remember the first house I decided to roof. I was beat. Roofing is a DIY job if you have the energy.


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## ncgrogan

Ed the Roofer said:


> If it is OSHA compliant labeled, then it seems like a very good price.
> 
> I prefer to have one to wear and check for comfort, but basically, most of the actual harnesses are real similar.
> 
> Its your life to worry about and any of your helpers too.
> 
> Try one first before buying several.
> 
> Ed
> 
> PS. If you would consider spending all of the extra money on a 100 % Grace Ice and Water shield "temporary" roof before you get it shingle, you probably will have spent the same or close to it as the cost of paying someone to roof your house fast enough sa as not to leave it exposed to the elements for your 30 day time frame.
> 
> 4 square roll of 15 # felt = $ 14.00 = $ 3.50 per square
> 
> 2 square roll of 30 # felt = $ 14.00 = $ 7.00 per square
> 
> 2 square roll of I & W shield = $ 90.00 = $ 45.00 per square


Exactly, if your saving 2-3k on labor, why not spend a thousand to put something on that will last a long time. I mean come on is 45 cents/sq ft. really that much and thats a little high, my last job it was about $36/sq. A roll is almost 3 squares not two, 36"x75'


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## MJW

Using I&W on the whole roof is way overkill and can cause problems with ventilation. Sure, it more protection, but it's just a waste of good product. 

Shingles keep the water out, not underlayment.


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## ncgrogan

How does it affect ventilation? Why would you need to vent the shingles? If anything it affects condensation as I said before, if you dont understand condensation, where it might occur, then I wouldnt advise using it at all. If it doesnt cause a problem when you put it on the valleys and eaves it wont cause a problem if you use it on the entire house. A vapor retarder is not like an air barrier. A vapor retarder that is applied over 20% will stop 20% of the vapor drive. An air barrier applied over 20% will stop 0% air infiltration. Insulation should on the cold side of the peel and stick underlayment. Where that is depends on lots of things including where your located, what temp you keep your heat/air, etc. 

As I stated in my other posts if your not sure about condensation there are other products out there which are vapor permeable and water barriers, most of those can be exposed for 6 months or so. But again I have not used these, so I dont know how well they work. And as I said earlier, if I was reroofing my house by myself I would use one of those products to give myself more time not to mention as a safety factor since I would not be a professional

I still agree with the rest of the posters, just pay someone to do it, by the time you spend all the money on supplies and everything else, you wont save a whole lot of money. Most of the time a new roof is only going to cost you a few bucks/sq ft (if its shingles) and that is your ROOF....a very important item. How much/sq ft did you spend on those new tile and hard wood floors? Just pay someone and have it done right


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## Brik

Its doable for a diligent and strong DIYer. I have done many and have been trained by, worked with, a few pros here and there although I am a DIYer.

What you really need to do is balance your cost savings of doing it yourself with what your time is worth. You have posted about a LOT of other projects. I suspect you have a lot on your plate. A pro can have this done in a few days. You may want to invest your time somewhere else.

The house flippers know all about this. Lets say it costs an aditional $5000 to pay somone to do it but they will be done in 3 days. DIY will take a month or two. What is the cost of those additional mortgage payments? Hmm, makes sense to hire it out and sell quicker.

In your case its your house. What will it be worth to you to finish your house and enjoy it? Hard to put a dollar ammt on that. maybe you are a good, fast, painter, plumber, electrician, drywaller or what ever.

Pick your battles is all I can say.


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## RippySkippy

NateHanson said:


> Ok, so I'm no comedian, is that what you're saying?  It was a joke.
> 
> I can't quite follow your description of stacking the bundles.


I was hoping as much....no harm.

here's a small image showing the roof pitch, a bundle on each side of the peak, with a bundle spanning the whole lot. In my description, I mentioned you could put two bundles on one side, one a bit higher up with the end resting on the peak...either way will work...I like the way in the image best...supports the shingles well and keeps them up out of the way. Hope that helps...


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## NateHanson

Thanks Rippy. 

As to the suggestions against DIY, I'm still undecided. I've got plenty of projects, but none of them are urgent. The house is 15 years old and was well built, generally. We just have lots of improvements we'd like to make. We like doing things the way we want to, and we enjoy the process. Hiring people for all the work we do/want to do is not an option. I'll get quotes for the roof to see how much I'd save. Having it done fast isn't a priority. I don't care if it takes a month because I've got more time than money. I don't work (at home with kids) which allows me to spend more time improving our house. The flip side of that is that if we want to make improvements AND have a parent at home with the kids, rather than in daycare, then we need to do work ourselves because we're making less money. 

The roof is completely split into three levels. I may decide to try one of the levels this summer, and see how that goes. If I decide it's worth the savings, I can proceed with the other levels now or later. If I decide I'm already buff enough without hauling another 50 bundles of shingles around on the roof, then I'll contract the remaining parts of the roof. 

Nate


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## elementx440

NateHanson said:


> What sort of fall-protection gear should I purchase? (it's a low pitch, but 3 stories, so the highest fall could be 35 feet, and my wife would kill me if I died)


yikes three stories is getting up there :huh:
I could roll off my roof and at worst sprain an ankle...

I've read it's about 3 hours for a tear off and reapplication of one square. So my four jobs of 7square each should take 21 hours, between two guys that's 11 hours, a good two days work just in case. I see that as being very feasible for my simple no-frills roof line.


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## Ed the Roofer

ncgrogan said:


> Exactly, if your saving 2-3k on labor, why not spend a thousand to put something on that will last a long time. I mean come on is 45 cents/sq ft. really that much and thats a little high, my last job it was about $36/sq. A roll is almost 3 squares not two, 36"x75'


 
.45 Cents per square foot is $ 45.00 per square, which in most quotes, would be a very substantial difference in price.

My discounted price for a 67.667 length x 3 foot width roll of Grace Ice and Water shield is about $ 82.00 from the local roofing supply houses I use, and from those that I buy less frequently from, the cost is about $ 92.00 per roll. This winds up being a 2 square roll or 200 square foot per roll.

By the way, your calculations wind up providing 2.25 squares or 225 square feet of material, which you would need to add 33 % more to equal your claim of 3 squares per roll of coverage.

Don't forget any potential waste factor from missapplication, where someone is not used to installing these products on a moderately windy day too.

I could buy the cheaper, silica sand surfaced products for a savings on using cheaper inferior products versus the Grace upper level materials, but since I am putting the 23 years of my companies history and reputation down, I choose not to cut corners on something so critical as the weather-proofing underlayment I install.

Ed


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## MJW

Condensation IS caused by improper ventilation....correct? Okay, put the I&W over an entire roof and see what happens in 15 years. My fellow roofers here know what I am talking about.........

I'm not saying that this can't be done by a DIY'er, but I doubt you will save much money.

As for stacking the shingles that way.....yes, it works, but you will handle each bundle at least 3-4 times, before you even open it. There are ways around this, like tearing one side and then getting the shingles delivered and set them on the new tarpaper. I'll find a pic for you if I can.


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## MJW

here is a picture


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## MJW

Then lay them out like this to hold the paper down. If you are worried about the sliding, then put a 16 under each one.


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## ncgrogan

Ed the Roofer said:


> .45 Cents per square foot is $ 45.00 per square, which in most quotes, would be a very substantial difference in price.
> 
> My discounted price for a 67.667 length x 3 foot width roll of Grace Ice and Water shield is about $ 82.00 from the local roofing supply houses I use, and from those that I buy less frequently from, the cost is about $ 92.00 per roll. This winds up being a 2 square roll or 200 square foot per roll.
> 
> By the way, your calculations wind up providing 2.25 squares or 225 square feet of material, which you would need to add 33 % more to equal your claim of 3 squares per roll of coverage.
> 
> Don't forget any potential waste factor from missapplication, where someone is not used to installing these products on a moderately windy day too.
> 
> I could buy the cheaper, silica sand surfaced products for a savings on using cheaper inferior products versus the Grace upper level materials, but since I am putting the 23 years of my companies history and reputation down, I choose not to cut corners on something so critical as the weather-proofing underlayment I install.
> 
> Ed


Wow, your right my math was way off....I should give myself time to wake up in the morning before typing...2 squares it is. The $36/sq was on a change order so something else may have been wrapped into that without my knowing. And I am talking about Ice and Water Sheild. That is a proprietary name of Grace. Cheapo imitations like weatherguard are junk in my opinion.


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## ncgrogan

MJW said:


> Condensation IS caused by improper ventilation....correct? Okay, put the I&W over an entire roof and see what happens in 15 years. My fellow roofers here know what I am talking about.........
> 
> I'm not saying that this can't be done by a DIY'er, but I doubt you will save much money.
> 
> As for stacking the shingles that way.....yes, it works, but you will handle each bundle at least 3-4 times, before you even open it. There are ways around this, like tearing one side and then getting the shingles delivered and set them on the new tarpaper. I'll find a pic for you if I can.


No it is not, condensation occurs when warm moist air meets a cool surface. If you are getting moisture drive from the interior of your house, it doesnt matter how well you vent the attic, any moisture laden air that touches the cooler surface will condensate. Does the mirror in your bathroom not condensate just because its a small mirror? No, it doesnt matter if you have a small handheld mirror or the entire wall is a mirror, they will both condensate when you take a shower. Venting will help, but not prevent it. The 3 feet of self adhering underlayment people so willingly use on the perimeter, valleys, etc. and many codes require is just as likely to experience condensation problems as the entire roof is. Its not just a cut and dry answer, there are many many factors which should be considered when using a vapor barrier.....heating/cooling climate? Mixed Climate? Existing conditions? Foil faced batt insulation used in the attic? Polyethylene in the attic? Even kraft paper used on non-foil faced batt insulation is a smart vapor barrier....its perms vary with the moisture content. Why do you think there are so many hygrothermal programs coming out? Therm6, Wufi? The IBC is washing its hands of vapor barriers because they have finally realized every situation is different and you can't just take a cookie cutter approach to it


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## MJW

right, it occurs when cool air meets warm air, this is litterally called weather conditions and that is how moisture and storms occur.

In a bathroom, if it is not vented properly, of course it is moisture filled air. So, ventilation is the answer.
Now, if you seal up your roof with I&W, you will have the same problems. Not to mention that your shingles will boil and melt. Your entire ventilation is altered if you seal up everything. 
When codes started insisting on "sealing" everything.....this is when the mold problems started.

I don't care about in-house studies or laboratory results. I see it first hand every day.


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## MJW

I might also say that I&W shield is for ICE.

I know that Grace may have other products, but I&W shield is made for ice on a roof.

I feel that southern facing roofs don't even need I&W. The code is a (may I say communist) thing. Not just the areas that need I&W get it. It's every roof that gets it.


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## ncgrogan

MJW said:


> right, it occurs when cool air meets warm air, this is litterally called weather conditions and that is how moisture and storms occur.
> 
> In a bathroom, if it is not vented properly, of course it is moisture filled air. So, ventilation is the answer.
> Now, if you seal up your roof with I&W, you will have the same problems. Not to mention that your shingles will boil and melt. Your entire ventilation is altered if you seal up everything.
> When codes started insisting on "sealing" everything.....this is when the mold problems started.
> 
> I don't care about in-house studies or laboratory results. I see it first hand every day.


Your missing the point, you vent the attic to keep the attic temps down and prevent the shingles from curling up, how does a vapor barrier prevent that. Its not a thermal break.

Mold problems were primarily wall problems not roof problems and they happened mostly due to improper use or inadvertant use of vapor barriers (vinyl wall paper in hotels) I bet you wouldnt think twice about putting down a tpo, pvc, epdm or modified on a low slope roof? Do you think those are vapor permeable? Even the plywood decking on the roof acts as a mild vapor barrier until it soaks up a lot of moisture. The plywood has a perm of about 1 until is soaks up moisture. Felt has a perm of 5, do you really think a vapor barrier on top of a vapor barrier will make a difference?


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## Ed the Roofer

ncgrogan said:


> Wow, your right my math was way off....I should give myself time to wake up in the morning before typing...2 squares it is. The $36/sq was on a change order so something else may have been wrapped into that without my knowing. And I am talking about Ice and Water Sheild. That is a proprietary name of Grace. Cheapo imitations like weatherguard are junk in my opinion.


 
ncgrogan,

So, how much do you pay for a full roll of Grace Ice and Water Shield? And, is it still 75 foot long where you buy it? Our rolls have gone down to 67.667 feet long.

There is:

Grace Ultra

Grace I & W Shield (the one we use)

Grace Select

Grace Basik

Regarding your bathroom scenario, if the bathroom accumulated excessive humidity and condensates, then "ventilating" it through a proper exhaust vent with continual moving free flowing air would alleviate the proplem. ie; Put a fan in the window to exhaust the vapor to the exterior. A small bathroom exhaust vent will also work, but would take additional time since the rise in internal vapor was so rapid in a tightly sealed environment.

Ed


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## ncgrogan

Ed the Roofer said:


> ncgrogan,
> 
> So, how much do you pay for a full roll of Grace Ice and Water Shield? And, is it still 75 foot long where you buy it? Our rolls have gone down to 67.667 feet long.
> 
> There is:
> 
> Grace Ultra
> 
> Grace I & W Shield (the one we use)
> 
> Grace Select
> 
> Grace Basik
> 
> Regarding your bathroom scenario, if the bathroom accumulated excessive humidity and condensates, then "ventilating" it through a proper exhaust vent with continual moving free flowing air would alleviate the proplem. ie; Put a fan in the window to exhaust the vapor to the exterior. A small bathroom exhaust vent will also work, but would take additional time since the rise in internal vapor was so rapid in a tightly sealed environment.
> 
> Ed


Ed, I dont buy it, the contractor does. The last job we used it on was 75ft rolls and I know there are different tiers of grace, Ice and Water Sheild is what we use. The house was 1400 sq ft. and the change order was $500. Like I said, you know how the game works.....it may have been piggy backed on something else, ie. they already factored it in, had some left over on a job, I have no idea. If $45/square is what you get it for im not going to argue thats what it costs, I just said on my last job it was $36/square. Either way we are only talking about a 9 cents per sq ft. difference. 

As far as the bathroom, sure you can ven the crap out of it but if you hold a mirror directly over the shower you will get condensation. You have to eliminate either the cold surface or the warm moist air to get rid of condensation. Venting is just moving the moisture laden air around. Think about a soffit vent, air has to go all the way from the eave to the ridge, not to mention you may be introducing cold air from the outside and creating a cold surface. Then if you have warm moist air coming from the interior now the ventilation has cause the condensation. Thats why its just not a simple answer


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## Ed the Roofer

ncgrogan said:


> Then if you have warm moist air coming from the interior now the ventilation has cause the condensation. Thats why its just not a simple answer


Hence, the reason for the proper application of a vapor barrier on the under/warm side of the attic floor insulation.

Reduce the permeance channeling into the attic environment and you difuse the potential for adverse conditions beyond what the ventilation system is rated to do.

Actually, a more accurate method of determining "Proper Attic Ventilation", would be to calculate the "Air Exchanges" per hour, per HVI and Air Vent. This is not what the 1942 HUD code specifies though.

Gee. I would have thought that since 1942 to 2007, the 1/300 and 1/150 "code" requirements might have been updated by now.

Buildings are much more tighter and energy efficient in current times, which saves on energy costs, but also creates internal environmental considerations not yet adequately addressed.

Ed

By the Way. Damn good discussion.


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## elementx440

Ice guard seems to vary about $20-$50+ a square. Why is this? What are you gaining/sacraficing between the two?


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## Ed the Roofer

Grace brand products are the premium product line.

Some sell by weight, which can seem equal, until you add up how much silica sand surfacing was attached to the roll to achieve the equal weight status.

Decking adhesion strength at 40* F is anaccepted method of determining adhesion strength.

Lap seam adhesion strength at 40* F also is a recognized factor to determine the entire weather tightness of the membrane.

Coating of the nails that pierce and anchor to the decking is akin to creating a self-gasketed nail, which the Grace products do very well.

What in the heck does silica sand do for water-proofing purposes?

What is the mm thickness of the various products being compared to with each other?

Which product has a historical record of success over the long term real world usage from past history?

Why are you over-evaluating every little detail at this point?

Either, you do have enough man-power and confidence in your abilities to do a proper and safe job by this time, or you do not!

Ed


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## elementx440

you're right, i've read 20 pages in a black&decker book, and from having seen the type of people that are roofers... i'm sure i can handle it. thanks for all the support.


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## MJW

Hahaha, what a punk.

The Black and Decker tools are the greatest man.


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## Ed the Roofer

Oh No!!!

The secret is out now.

This is the secret to staying at a Holiday Inn Express. They relaced the Gideons Bibles with Craftsmans, How To Do It Yourself books.

Ed


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## powerinc

I am a DIY'er. I have replaced several roofs over the years. I can certainly tell you the older you are, or get, the harder it will be for a DIY'er. Doing 25 squares and 3 stories up is a tall task. If you are serious about doing this thing yourself, get young help! Get guys that will stay on the job until it's done without saying it's too hot out, or I'm tired, I need a beer! No beer until the job is DONE! You could have this job done in 3 days if you decide to work on it for an entire 3 days. You would need about 4 guys to help, with at least 3 air nailers. Don't get guys who are afraid of highths! I don't recommend doing this by yourself! You will only get tired very quickly and depressed because you just worked 30 hours on this roof, and you only have 5 square installed. If you are not willing to go thru all of this, hire a proffesional roofer!!


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## skipjack

Did Nate ever get his roof done? Or did he fall off? Let us know how/if it went off!! 

I'm in the market for a roof on my simple rectangular ranch house and garage and I can't believe the quotes I'm getting. :blink: I know the price of asphalt shingles has gone up due to the increase in the price of oil (at least that's what I'm being told).. but, seriously my little place is going to cost the same as my parent's complicated roof which was done just over a year ago!

Here's a pic of my roof(s) (gotta love google maps!):










As you can see... it's a simple hip-gabled rectangle. In fact... I plan on removing the chimney (getting an HE furnace and electric water heater) and replacing the two meager vents with a ridge vent, so there'll be no obstacles when it comes time to start nailing. Well, okay.. save for a couple plumbing vents, but I can't imagine this job wouldn't be on page one in a roofing handbook someplace. 

Anyway, I'm considering doing it myself... with the help of a friend or two... or three. I know it's a laborious job.. and may be taxing on a friendship so I've got to be selective with whom I ask. 

But, as far as roofing goes... what's the difficulty level of this job?

Oh.. I've been in the attic and things look to be in good shape as far as decking goes. There's no evidence of leaking or moisture.


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## jogr

Doesn't look to bad. But as the other posts indicated it's a very physically demanding job and can take much longer than anticipated. You could start with the garage and see how it goes.


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## skipjack

That's what I was just thinking after I posted my message, Jogr. Practice on the garage! 

I made the mistake of signing up for "free" roofing quotes online... I should've known it would unleash a herd of hard-sell roofing outfits who want to sit down with me and discuss the history of the manufacturer, color schemes... etc. No offense to anyone in that line of work, but, when I get a quote, I want to talk to a _roofer_ not a sales guy! 

Anyway.. the sales guy tells me that I can't do a ridge vent at the peak because it's too long. That structurally it's not safe. Now.. I'm no mechanical engineer, but if I've got a ridge beam running down the center of my roof.. what difference does it make if it's covered in sheathing or not? It's still there, right? I just nodded and listened to the rest of his sales pitch and said "I'll call you" and sent him on his way. Ugh. 

Is there any truth to that? Can a ridge vent be _too_ long?

Anyway.. he said I'd need about 27 square to cover both the house and garage. And.. yes.. there are 2 layers on both (ouch!). 

But, I think I will try and tackle the garage on my own and see how smoothly it goes. A couple questions, though... 

Should I install a ridge vent on the garage? My last house had one (new construction).. but I'm not sure I see the purpose. Plus, this one is pretty short.
I don't need an ice barrier on the garage, do I? I mean.. it's just a garage. Ice dams shouldn't form because it's not heated, right?


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## Brik

> Anyway.. the sales guy tells me that I can't do a ridge vent at the peak because it's too long. That structurally it's not safe. Now.. I'm no mechanical engineer, but if I've got a ridge beam running down the center of my roof.. what difference does it make if it's covered in sheathing or not? It's still there, right? I just nodded and listened to the rest of his sales pitch and said "I'll call you" and sent him on his way. Ugh.
> Is there any truth to that? Can a ridge vent be _too_ long?


I'm not a pro roofer - but I cant see how it would be an issue. Did he go into the attic?



> Anyway.. he said I'd need about 27 square to cover both the house and garage. And.. yes.. there are 2 layers on both (ouch!).


You definitely need to do a tear-off - That, IMO, is harder than actually doing the roofing. 


> But, I think I will try and tackle the garage on my own and see how smoothly it goes.


Great idea!


> A couple questions, though...
> 
> Should I install a ridge vent on the garage? My last house had one (new construction).. but I'm not sure I see the purpose. Plus, this one is pretty short.




The vent can help keep the garage a little cooler in summer by providing a place for hot air to flow out. 


> I don't need an ice barrier on the garage, do I? I mean.. it's just a garage. Ice dams shouldn't form because it's not heated, right?


I would think no ice barrier would be fine on a garage.


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## tranman

*Just Did Mine*

34 square of a pitched roof, working by myself. It took a total of 9.5 days, working about 10 hours per day. Three and a half days for tearoff, six for shingle installation. I got lucky- there was no rain during the period of tearoff and installation. But it was darn hot, even in late September. I had the shingles delivered to the rooftop, which helped immensely. I purchased an air compressor (which I will use for other jobs) and a reconditioned air coil nailer (which I probably will not). Overall, I saved three grand from the lowest bid by a roofing company.

Would I do it again? No, probably not- I hope I won't have to.

Am I glad that I did? You bet.


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## Ed the Roofer

tranman said:


> 34 square of a pitched roof, working by myself. It took a total of 9.5 days, working about 10 hours per day. Three and a half days for tearoff, six for shingle installation. I got lucky- there was no rain during the period of tearoff and installation. But it was darn hot, even in late September. I had the shingles delivered to the rooftop, which helped immensely. I purchased an air compressor (which I will use for other jobs) and a reconditioned air coil nailer (which I probably will not). Overall, I saved three grand from the lowest bid by a roofing company.
> 
> Would I do it again? No, probably not- I hope I won't have to.
> 
> Am I glad that I did? You bet.


You did good. Not many people have 10 full days at 10 hours per day available to them to undertake such a task though, but you have some new equipment out of the deal, so Way Cool.

Did you take some In Progress and After Completion photos to share with us?

Ed


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## tranman

*Pictures*

I did take some pictures, but I will have to download them off the camera. Promise to get them up soon.

More thoughts on my roofing job-

My house is only one story; still had to be careful, but there is no way that I would have considered doing a two or three story home.

The existing shingles were in very poor shape; they came off relatively easy and were lighter than decent shingles.

As I mentioned before, it was hotter than I expected. I'm in the SW US, and although God blessed me with no rain, he sure heated things up to a point where a few days I came down and took a break in the afternoon for a few hours.

Before undertaking this job, I studied roofing books and sites for weeks. I had a clear picture in my head of what I needed to do. The roof was fairly complicated- 3 gables, a chimney, multiple roof penetrations. I read everything that I could find about roofing techniques and materials.

I am assured in knowing that I know exactly what went up on the roof- that the shingles are exactly the ones that we specified, that membrane was used in the valleys, that the vents were carefully sealed, that the chimney was flashed (a rarity out here).

I'm 40. I was a bit unsure about how my body would react from day after day of roofing work. Luckily, although I was dead tired most days, I had no major injuries or medical problems. This is not my field- most days I wear a tie at work. I'm no triathalon athlete either.

Buy, borrow or rent an air nailer. It makes things go that much faster. Also, we rented a waste container. It helps with cleanup, and gives you an excuse to clean out the garage too. 

Most days, I wished I had help. It would made things a little bit easier. It can be done with one person, however. I'm still a bit nervous about my work. In my area, winds can get high on occasion. We will wait and see.


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## hitmehhh

It is a lot of work. Sure, you can put the roof on . The only tricky thing is when it comes to things like step flashings and other transitions where I feel more comfortable letting a prfessional do it.The only problem is trying to find a roofer that does a good job.


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## DUDE!

just past the half century mark, did mine a couple yrs ago, second roof, first time by myself, pitch isn't too bad, 11 sq, ranch, had to take off two layers. Maybe a few hours after work, most of the day on the weekend. Started in july on the garage, hot even up here, was more concerned with damaging the shingles then getting sunburned. Biggest thing for me was taking my time, I had till winter to get the job done, got ahold of couple really big tarps that I tied down when not working on the roof. Only forgot one time to not tie them down, had few drips inside during bad storm. To me it takes some getting used to the nailer, alot of wrong angle nail heads, this last time, went the old fashion way, used a hammer. A couple things to me, even with my slope, that bare roof was slippery, heard you shouldn't but I tied a rope around the chimney base and clipped to my work belt and even then did lots of crawling around up there, and also, sure was surprised at the dumpster cost, didn't throw any extras in either, paid up front for est. two layers at 11sq and still got a followup bill. Oh, and been three yrs. no leaks. Have fun, be safe.


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## aaron.klimchuk

Like others have said, you can do it if you have the time and patience. Plus you might have an excuse to buy a new tool or too.

Just be SAFE!


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