# Proper nails for siding/exterior trim



## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

My post does seem a bit too detailed... so, let me make it less detailed.

1) Can T1-11 panels (5/8" pysawn no groove, in my case) be nailed through the center of the laps at the vertical edges? Or... must it be nailed at both edges of where the vertical lap meets to allow for expansion/contraction? The lap is self spacing. The Plysawn siding is going over 1/2" sheathing that has been nailed as called for... @ 6" on all panel edges. 

2) I will be nailing the 3/4" window/door trim and battens with a ring shank siding nail (larger head than trim nail). It is going over a combined 1 1/8" of plywood sheathing/plywood siding (5/8 over 1/2). Wondering about 8D vs. 10D. Is it necessary that the trim fastener penetrate the stud a full 1 1/4" beyond the sheathing/siding combo? Or is that sheathing & plywood siding considered nailable base?
Thank you!


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

> 1) Can T1-11 panels (5/8" pysawn no groove, in my case) be nailed through the center of the laps at the vertical edges? Or... must it be nailed at both edges of where the vertical lap meets to allow for expansion/contraction? The lap is self spacing. The Plysawn siding is going over 1/2" sheathing that has been nailed as called for... @ 6" on all panel edges.


You need at least some nails on the edge of the first panel so it will lay flat otherwise you'll be fighting the seam laying the next sheet. If the nails are exposed I'll use minimal nails to hold down the edge of the first sheet and then nail every 8" on the edge of the overlapping sheet. 6" seems excessive and may be speced that way if nailing directly to the studs because then the siding is also a shear panel. 



> 2) I will be nailing the 3/4" window/door trim and battens with a ring shank siding nail (larger head than trim nail). It is going over a combined 1 1/8" of plywood sheathing/plywood siding (5/8 over 1/2). Wondering about 8D vs. 10D. Is it necessary that the trim fastener penetrate the stud a full 1 1/4" beyond the sheathing/siding combo? Or is that sheathing & plywood siding considered nailable base?


No need for 10's, 8's are fine.

I've done lots of this faux B&B and one thing you may want to consider is using 5/4 trim on the windows, doors and such, anywhere that a batten is going to butt into. 

IMO the added depth that it adds to the appearance looks WAY better than when the battens and the trim are all flush.


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Thank you, kwikfishron! I was also thinking that 6" on all panel edges was a bit excessive, given the sheathing is already nailed 6/12.

Great tip on the 5/4 trim. I'll see if I can track some down.

If I decide to paint, rather than stain (better weather resistance for plywood siding).... would a 304 stainless nail be unnecessary to secure the panels? Hot-dip galvies fine for painted surface?
I would still use 304 stainless for the trim & battens (exposed nails).


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Unless you're within 10-15 miles of the ocean I wouldn't even bother with the stainless unless you're gun nailing the trim (which I never do). Good HD galvanized are fine. 

If you are going to gun nail the trim then stainless for sure because those electrostatic galvanized gun nails are garbage and will rust.


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Thank you, kwik. Appreciate advice and tips. No ocean. At 6000' Southern California mountains. Mild snow in winter. Hand pounding everything. Small cabin 

I planned on staining the faux board & batten with a Superdeck transparent oil, to lend a rustic woods-y look... but thinking exterior paint may be best over a plywood siding, given the light winter snow.

Computer mock-up using a swatch I assembled and stained:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Paint or stain is up to you but if rustic is the look you're going for then I'd stain it. 

You're using Cedar or Redwood for the trim, right?


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Actually... the trim I used in the swatch was kiln-dried SPF.
The only place within two hours of me that had Cedar, was selling what looked like it had been sitting on their lot (outside on pavement under a tarp) for a good while. $4.68 LF for 1x12.
Local Ace and Homer in the next city has some Redwood.

Is the re-sawn SPF garbage for exterior?
Here is a pic of that Cedar I found... there is one stained piece of SPF in the shot. These pieces weren't bad looking.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Kory Beam said:


> I did like the look of the resawn SPF.... is it garbage for exterior?


I'm from NW Oregon...no SPF (on the shelf) there, all we used was Cedar. 

Btw, SPF could be could be 'either' Spruce, Pine or Fir. They all stain up differently so do some actual test before you commit. Don't trust a swatch.

I worked the Bay area for a few years and we used a lot of Spruce for fascia but it all painted. I'm not sure how well it stains.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Kory Beam said:


> $4.68 LF for 1x12.
> .


I wouldn't think you'd need any 1x12. You pay a premium for that x12. A 1x6 tk cedar is probably 1.50-1.75 a lf.


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Yep, they cut down the 1x12 to size for about what you are quoting. Thanks again!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

The sheathing is your structural resistance, the siding your appearance/water repellent. The thinner overlap lip at the edge is the weakest point in the whole panel because it is thinner there, so manufacturer suggests certain nailing (minimum 6"o.c.) to hold it down flat on the wall; so moisture doesn't reach the end grain (which you should seal while stacked, pp 55) and for wind resistance- to meet minimum Code: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwimn96v3brOAhVM2WMKHdhaBygQFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buildgp.com%2FDocumentViewer.aspx%3Felementid%3D3196&usg=AFQjCNHkOTRnqhbVIM05NvvnLPGAq1Sfvw&cad=rja 

Gary


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Thank you, Gary.

Since the windows are such that there is only a 5.75" space between the upper and lower window... I was just going to use one piece of trim between those windows, but that would require a different approach to adding a drip cap (usually @ the top piece of window trim. Can I put the drip cap for this lower window right above the vinyl frame... so that it would be at the BOTTOM of that 5.25" trim piece between those windows? Leaving a 1/4" gap so that the bottom of the trim piece is slightly away from the cap. Would this be an acceptable practice in this situation. Here is a pic showing the window placement. I put a red line to show where I figured that drip cap should be in this scenario:


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I would recommend at least a 10d nail.This siding material is not what it used to be and wants to rwiist ,cup,bow and pull away form the wall any way it can.you are going thru the 5/8" siding and 5/8" underlay (1 1/4") with a 8d (2 3/8 ") nail which will leave 1 1/8" in the stud. Not enough IMHO and the 8's don't have a big enough diameter to keeps from pulling thru the material when it want to move.
I have seen this material nailed with 16 D hot dipped galvy's and still pull off the nail when it wants to. It's a crap shoot with this material these days.


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Mako1, do you mean that you recommend 10D for the trim, or are you saying 10D to hang the 5/8" T1-11 siding?

I believe plywood siding panel manufacturers and APA call for 8D .120 to nail 5/8" T1-11 over 1/2" structural sheathing.

Thanks!


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I was speaking of hanging the siding.I don't care what they recommend .I've hung thousands of sheets of the stuff and have seen it cup or bow and pull right over the head on a 8d ring shank. The newer stuff (last 20 years) I have seen in this area is crap.
If you want that look I would consider Hardie or something similar.


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Gotcha. Thank you for the response!


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

(From page 1) I have two windows, one above the other, and I want to use a drip cap on the lower window. These windows are spaced 5.75" apart, so I planned on one piece of trim between the windows, with the drip cap placed right above bottom window's top frame (leaving required gap between the trim and drip cap). Makes sense to me... is this acceptable in this situation? The top window is only 10 inches below the roof - which has a two foot overhang, so I figured no need for a drip cap on the top window. Here is a pic with a red line placed where I thought the drip cap should go. Would I be correct placing it there? Thanks!


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## Kory Beam (Nov 15, 2014)

Talked to my local, and he was fine with a drip cap over the window in this scenario. He also noted that I could use 3/8" plysawn siding panels instead of 5/8", since the 1/2" sheathing is providing shear. Any advantages to using 5/8" instead of the thinner 3/8" (other than slight bump in insulation factor)? Thanks!


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't have an issue with thinner material, other than keeping to the manufacturers guidelines. The bottom piece of flashing is fine, just bend it to 110* for run-off, end dams and keep siding above it (non-contact) for clean drip; http://www.mtcc1170.com/images/BCRainScreen.pdf

Clean drip; http://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-105-understanding-drainage-planes


Water management; http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildi...ding_america/water_management_residential.pdf

Gary


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