# Torch Down Instructions Needed - DIY



## MikeinBurien

Hi All,

My wife and I are building a 400 sq foot extension to our house and doing all the work ourselves except the foundation. So far, all the walls are up and the roof rafters and OSB are going down this weekend.

I have an existing torch down roof with a 1:12 pitch and need to tie the new roof to the existing roof. Since the new extension is only on one half of the existing roof, the new roof is in the same plane as the existing roof. That's a pretty lousy explanation, but look at it this way. The original roof has only two sides that slope 1:12 from the middle. We're building the new extension so it extends only from half of the length of the house starting at the middle. 


After the OSB goes down we hope to install the torch down by overlapping the existing torch down for about 2 or 3 feet to assure no leaks. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.

Additionally, I've never put a torch down roof on, but it doesn't appear to be that hard. We have permits to do the work and we're pretty good at framing, electricity and plumbing, so how hard can the roof be? 

Is anyone aware of a DIY site that explains the torch down procedure?

Thanks all! Nice site. 

Mike - Burien, WA


----------



## Teetorbilt

Hang on, the roofers will be around. Be aware that they are not real keen on DIY torchdowns, it seems that it is really easy to 'torchdown' the whole structure (think Fire Dept.).


----------



## AaronB

MikeinBurien said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I are building a 400 sq foot extension to our house and doing all the work ourselves except the foundation. So far, all the walls are up and the roof rafters and OSB are going down this weekend.
> 
> I have an existing torch down roof with a 1:12 pitch and need to tie the new roof to the existing roof. Since the new extension is only on one half of the existing roof, the new roof is in the same plane as the existing roof. That's a pretty lousy explanation, but look at it this way. The original roof has only two sides that slope 1:12 from the middle. We're building the new extension so it extends only from half of the length of the house starting at the middle.
> 
> 
> After the OSB goes down we hope to install the torch down by overlapping the existing torch down for about 2 or 3 feet to assure no leaks. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> 
> Additionally, I've never put a torch down roof on, but it doesn't appear to be that hard. We have permits to do the work and we're pretty good at framing, electricity and plumbing, so how hard can the roof be?
> 
> Is anyone aware of a DIY site that explains the torch down procedure?
> 
> Thanks all! Nice site.
> 
> Mike - Burien, WA


Teetor is, of course, correct.

Torchdown modified bitumen is not simple, and not a DIY project. I strongly suggest that you hire a professional roofer with extensive experience with torch applied modified bitumen, enough general liability coverage to cover the repalcement of your home if they burn your house to the ground.

Aside from the fire hazard, flat roofing is a skilled trade, and it is easy to make a leakif you dont know what youre doing. 

I can frame and wire a house, and run copper and pvc piping too, but would not like to say I "know how"

Hire a professional for this, it is your best bet.


----------



## MikeinBurien

Thanks guys.  I understand about the liability. That's the same thing the Home Depot guy said when I told him I was putting in new 200 amp service myself from the pole. He pretty much had a fit and told me what and idiot I was, but as it turns out the local electric company was fine with it and I'm still around. I'm very proud of my new mast head, meter box, breaker panel and #00 wire.

Now, putting in 200 amp service from the pole is not the same as putting on torch modified bitumen, but how hard can it be? Sure, I agree it makes sense to be careful. And do understand there's fire involved. If I can frame a house, wire it all, put in all the copper, tile, walls, etc, etc. I can do the roof as well. We've already purchased the materials and we're ready to go.

I'll take your warnings very seriously.

Having said all that, what I need now are instructions to do the torch down. Are there any sites that explain the procedure?


----------



## Teetorbilt

Mike, have you looked at other options such as Grace ice and water shield or some other peel & stick? I'm pretty good at most things but also realise the potential of open flame and petroleum products, it's not something that I would do with so many other options.


----------



## AaronB

I seriously doubt there will be many roofing contractors willing to give you instructions in this . This is due in part to the sue happy society we wlive in...if you burn your house down, there could be legal ramifications for anyone that did not cover EVERY aspect of installing a torch applied roofing system.


----------



## MikeinBurien

Hi Teetorbilt and Aaron. Makes sense that you're unlikely to see torch down instructions on the internet, but surely this information is not entirely limited to apprenticeship and hand-me-down knowledge. I'll do some research to see that I can find and report back.

But in the meantime... Peel and stick. That *does* have a nice DIY sound to it. I'll check into that as well to see if we have that type of roofing material locally.

Mike


----------



## Teetorbilt

Mike, what really sold me on the Grace peel & stick was what I saw last year. Three buildings dried in with the stuff went through two hurricanes in a month and the stuff stayed put. The torchdown on my bro-in-laws office was in a parking lot 2 blocks away, quite a few others were trashed too. Lost a few more this year.


----------



## Nathan

This is NOT a DIY project. 

You need to call a professional!


----------



## partsbill

MikeinBurien said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I are building a 400 sq foot extension to our house and doing all the work ourselves except the foundation. So far, all the walls are up and the roof rafters and OSB are going down this weekend.
> 
> I have an existing torch down roof with a 1:12 pitch and need to tie the new roof to the existing roof. Since the new extension is only on one half of the existing roof, the new roof is in the same plane as the existing roof. That's a pretty lousy explanation, but look at it this way. The original roof has only two sides that slope 1:12 from the middle. We're building the new extension so it extends only from half of the length of the house starting at the middle.
> 
> 
> After the OSB goes down we hope to install the torch down by overlapping the existing torch down for about 2 or 3 feet to assure no leaks. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> 
> Additionally, I've never put a torch down roof on, but it doesn't appear to be that hard. We have permits to do the work and we're pretty good at framing, electricity and plumbing, so how hard can the roof be?
> 
> Is anyone aware of a DIY site that explains the torch down procedure?
> 
> Thanks all! Nice site.
> 
> Mike - Burien, WA


Mike,
I am a DIY'er much the same as you and your wife. Damn the torpedo's.....full speed ahead. Others may scoff and question; yet if I'm informed and can read and follow instructions, I'd rather do it myself. I feel great for the accomplishment. Currently I'm installing a new roof. 48 squares. Even built myself a shingle hoist capable of lifting 8 bundles at a time at 6 feet per minute, 18 feet up.

I'm a Dodge/Jeep partsman by trade and also make it a point of mine: if someone needs something or how some way to do something, I can figure it out. In 20 years, I'm at least 150 and 0. I've found them all. As with your instruction needs, I was up to the challenge. Go to:
http://www.texasrefinerycoatings.com/html/bitumen_torchdown_roofing.html

Email the company and tell them NOTHING of your intentions other than you are considering using there products and would like to see an instruction manual to make sure you are considering the proper product for your home.

Have a great and fun time at it. Don't burn the house down, learn much, save plenty.

Bill


----------



## jproffer

That's right...amd when your roof leaks at every penetration or when you burn something that shouldn't have been burned...by all means come crying back here about how to fix it and...being the stand up guys that we TRY to be (despite some peoples best efforts to be the "ultimate...I can do anything a professional can do... DIYer"), we'll answer the best we can and TRY to help you fix the problems. BUT, if our suggestion is (again) to hire a professional...will you do it, or just carry on damaging your home and putting your family at risk just to say "Look neighbor Bob, I did that myself...Wasn't hard at all...sure I can help you with yours, I'm practically a pro at this now"


----------



## AaronB

jproffer


----------



## jproffer

Well, I mean...dammmmmmm. You can lead a horse to water...ya know?

I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, but really, this is definately NOT something you want to try for the first time on your own. Set your own windows and doors, install your own siding, but not this. You drop a window, you buy another one, siding comes off, ya put it back on, but if you screw this up, you could be looking to buy a new home...or worse yet...a new family.



> Don't burn the house down, learn much, save plenty.


If you can guarantee that you won't do the first one (which you can NOT), then I'm all for the second and third.

I think we need another party here....even one that's on your side. Have your wife read this thread and get her opinion on the matter.


----------



## AaronB

Ever since Home Depot started selling torch down, we have many flat roofs to repair or complete locally. These are done by homeowners, and I make more money on the repairs than I would have doing the roof installation, and even find some nice deals on nice new torches.

OK, when you do this roof, NO sealants except at desiganted termination points. (no roof cement especially)


----------



## MikeinBurien

Ok - Here's an update.

As it turns out, applying "torch on" roofing materials is pretty straight forward. As noted on this thread, it's not for the squeamish and I agree that in general this should be left for professionals. Having said that, unless you're a complete idiot or blind, this can be handled as DYI if you're prepared, did your home work and have a clear picture of what it takes. 

I did my homework, asked around, met with roofers, talked to the manufacturer.

The work was completed in about 6 hours since the largest part of the roof was free of obstructions such as roof vents and plumbing stacks.

I used a two-layer system with a fiberglass substrate and the bitumen top layer. The fiberglass goes down fast using 7/8" square head nails. This took about an hour on our 500 sq ft addition. Putting the bitumen down was also straight forward, except when you get to the obstructions. With a little bit of practice I was able to get the bitumen to melt nicely without being concerned about burning my house down. There is clearly technique involved and it's mostly a matter of making sure you're not overheating the bitumen. This is evident if you see pooling of the tar as you apply the heat. You do not need to heat right at the roof, but can apply heat about 3-6" up the bitumen as you're rolling it out. The substrate acts as a minor heat barrier to avoid smoldering bits of roof sheathing.

We used Polyglass products which are very nice to work with. They include lines on both the substrate and the top layer to help you align things. The Polyglass people were actually the most helpful and quickly followed by the building materials distributor (not Home Depot, etc., but actual people that selling roofing only materials). Polyglass provided instructions that were awesome in a very detailed application guide called "Technical Guide". Lots of specific detailed instructions regarding preparation, application and the important dos and don'ts section.

The tricky areas of course are the vents and plumbing stacks. Naturally you have to precut the bitumen out for any vents and stacks which is the easy part. To make sure your roof doesn't leak around these areas, you need to apply "patches" around each of the vents and stacks. This is definitely the area where big technique comes into play. Instead of burning your house down, I found that most roofers burn their finger tips since you have to heat the relatively small bitumen patches by holding them up and applying heat to the underside of the patch. You have to heat up the whole patch and you have to get very close to the point where you're hold it in the air.

At the end of the day, this was a very successful project and I would do it again. It's rained hard since the roof went up and not a single leak. Of course time will tell.

Now, I have to admit that I took at least some of the advice of the experts on this discussion group and hired a professional. Instead of having the roofer actually do the work, I paid "Ron" to act as a consultant so I could learn from the experience and get guidance on areas where I wasn't quite sure what I was doing. Ron works for a very reputable local roofing company and the consulting fee paid was very reasonable. Ron wasn't there the whole time, but got me started and came back later on to show me the vent techniques. Really nice guy.

If you decide to do this work yourself, you must take precautions to avoid burning your house down. If you're uncomfortable doing this work, don't do it. Importantly get the Technical Guide from the manufacturer of the product you plan to use. And if it's your first time, hire a "consultant". It was worth the price paid and I still saved lots of money.

Side note - not a single house has burned down in the county that I live in from a homeowner applying a torch down roof. (Can't speak for the quality of the job though and lack of leaks.)

Thanks to everyone that worked with me privately to get through this project. I'm a happy, and dry, camper.


----------



## AaronB

I am glad it worked out, and now, I bet you can see why none of us were willing to tell you how to do it in an internet forum...too much to forget, potential liability too high.

Can you post any pics?


----------



## MikeinBurien

Thanks Aaron! Yes, it's quite a bit of work and understand the liability issues. Like most things, a little guidance goes a long ways.

Here's a photo of the work in progress. This is the relatively easy part where you're just rolling out and torching down the bulk of the roof. You can see the holes where the roof vents go. Those are clearly a bit more tricky, but still within the realm of the DIYer - again with some homework and understanding of the risks.


----------



## AaronB

Can you show me what type of vents you used, what type of perimeter metal you made for it, and why are you going against the flow of water on your left in the pic?


----------



## AaronB

Also, did you end up flashing the perimeter curbs cuz of the stress points?


----------



## 747

*Aaron*

I got over to momence a couple of weeks ago. Is your sister putting a new 1/2 second story on her house?
I'm assuming thats her house because its got a new nice looking brown roof on it. Nice job if thats her house.


----------



## AaronB

Yeah, thats her, on Washington St. I told her she was going to need more $$$ when she started the project, but you know women. Now she is stuck with a frame and sheething, a roof, and half a house of soffit and fascia. Trying tio tie in all the soffit and fascia is a major pain. All the old stuff if either rotten and has to have framing repair work or was just built like crap and we are having to fix everything. Roof was put on in the rain LOL that was a crappy day in Oct. Couple that with the fact that nobody (my brothers) shows up when there is work to be done and you have a big long process. Gonna be hard to not strip the siding to make it all come together nicely.

Ill let you know when Ill be down there next, and you should swing by for coffee.


----------



## MikeinBurien

Hi Aaron - I don't have the photos of the finished roof yet, but will post a few in the next couple of days.

The vents are high hat types made for torch down roofing and they were painted with primer before adding the additional torch down material around them. No additional metal was added since it had probably 4-5" of metal all around the base. The primer was also applied to the top of the lead vent pipe cover to make sure the torchdown stuck nicely.

Regarding the appearance of the roof going agains the flow of water, the picture doesn't show this well, but just to the left of my foot is the peak of the house. In order to keep this side of house from looking flat, we added a short 18" overhang that follows the existing roof line downward. If you notice, there's an additional drain spout hole to the left as well.

In case it's not clear, the torch down goes *across* the slope of the roof, not with it. Naturally, that would fall in the stupid category if that's what you're getting at.

Regarding the stress points, I'm not sure what you're asking there. Prior to rolling out the torchdown material, I built small curbs that attached between the roof sheathing and the facia to allow a nice curb to be built. This was in line with the way the existing roof was built. Just followed the plan. Once I trimmed the excess torchdown, I finished the top off with 1 1/2" flashing that extends over the top of the torchdown and then down along the facia. Again, this was done in the same exact way as the existing roof and consistent with the way other torchdown roofs are done in this area. Additionally, I built crickets for some of the corners to make sure water was guided towards the downspount holes.

Let me know if that makes sense. Once I get a few more photos, most of what I'm explaining will be more clear. It's still raining here and we're looking good.


----------



## jproffer

I see (or I think I see) leading edges on the left of each section (towards you), and if the "peak" is to your left, then you roofed against water flow. I could be looking at it wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.


----------



## AaronB

Anywhere you have a change of direction (field to wall, field to canted curb, etc.), you have a stress point. Most modified bitumen specs call for a double layer (flashing) at the stress points.

This could be accomplished around the perimeter when you install your perimeter metal (which anchors the roof edge down to aid against blowoff) and your cover strip.


----------



## MikeinBurien

Ok - Here's a couple of photos of the mostly finished work. This might give a better perspective of how the roof is laid out. The new roof doesn't look particularly pretty since it has a bit of rain and slush on it from the last few days.

I drew in a red line at the peak of the roof so you can see the direction change. I didn't put in a double layer of torchdown at the peak because the existing roof didn't have one.


----------



## AaronB

When you flash everything, it should be nice.


----------



## MikeinBurien

Hi Aaron - I thought I was done and not sure what you mean by flashing everything. When looking at the photos I provided, do you see additional work needed? Is the flashing you're referring to cosmetic or additional waterproofing?

I'm guessing you're referring to the vents. They were installed by nailing first to the roof sheathing, then initially sealed with the main rows of torchdown, then additionally sealed with patches cut to extend about 6" all around and sealed to the main row below.

There is a small area where the vent meets the patch that could collect a smidgen of water, but I can't imagine that the water could sneak under the torchdown.

I could be way off base on your comments though.

Thoughts?


----------



## AaronB

Im probably just not seeing things clearly.


----------



## quincy850

*Help*

Mike,
can you please email me with a contact number so I can get some information from you before starting my roof. [email protected]
Quincy850


----------



## RooferJim

A lot of DIY types are using the peel and stick modifieds now like Flinlastic and Polyglass. GAF has one called Liberty. We have a little of these types but prefer EPDM for anything serious. Torch downs are very rare, or not done at all anymore at least around here.
RooferJim

www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## AaronB

Torchdowns are VERY popular in my area.


----------



## chaddr792001

thank you so much i'm doing a torch down too and i was looking for help in doing it too and you helped me alot! the pics are nice i'll take pics when i'm done with my roof. and i have friend that dose roofs for living helping out with it too...


----------



## houfrz

To me, it sound like Do-It-Yourself people want to Do-It-Themself. I know I do. Rock on DIY


----------



## AaronB

I hear you on the DIY, but torching a roof is not a DIY project.


----------



## nitrozorro

*Flashing & Nail Spacing*

We're installing a torch-down roof onto our patio cover. Does the flashing go under the underlay or does it sandwich between the underlay and the roofing material?

When nailing down the underlay what is the specific nail spacing?


----------



## AaronB

What type of underlay, and the roof field goes on first, turning up the wall 3 inches and then the modified bitumen flashings go on over that.

THIS IS NOT A DIY PROJECT. THERE IS SERIOUS RISK OF BURNING YOUR HOUSE DOWN!


----------



## NWdiyDiva

*Torch down consultant or "Ron" needed please*

Hello Mike, or any other flat roof leak problem solver,

I have a 60 year old 1200sqft cabin i have completely remodeled myself over the last 3 years. I put off replacing the 5% pitch flat roof that has flat roll roofing which has obviously expired 2 months ago. I have a steady leak in the house which requires me to empty buckets frequently and one for my tears. There is nothing to repair, no holes. It seems as though the material on the roof is so old and thin it's simply super saturated and with all this rain it's just gravity taking over at this point. I want to do torch down myself and would model my actions on your experiences. It's wet and cold here in Gig Harbor, WA. Can i do this project given the 30-50 degree temperatures? Also, can you email me any info on "Ron" the consultant you hired? Anyone else out there that could be my "Ron". After busting my back on this place for 3 years, i'll be damned if I'm going to spend more paying a company for a couple of days work than what i've spent on the house in 3 years of my slave labor.

Mike, 
Must thank you for taking the time to give us an end result synopsis. You truely are an inspiration and I commend you for your spirit not to cave in to the skeptics. I am in the same boat you were in, but mine is wet and miserable right now. Looking for some sunshine here. Thanks. Tina


----------



## NWdiyDiva

Mike,

Can you tell me what Polyglass products you used specifically. I just went to their site and found dozens of products in the same category. You can email me at [email protected] if that's ok. Anyone else, need torch down products for a cabin on Puget Sound that has severe winds occasionally and lots of rain. Property is surrounded by 100+ft fir trees, has i chimney, 2 toilet vents and one bathroom fan vent. 5% pitch and no overhang at walls. Thanks a bunch. Tina


----------



## ncgrogan

The roof looks good, but do you have any secondary drainage? Does it drain to gutters, or roof drains? If you using roof drains, you need to have overflow scuppers or drains so that no more than 4" of water builds up if the primary drainage gets blocked


----------



## NWdiyDiva

*Torchdown consultations needed - paid of course*

Hi, and thanks for responding sir. The roof has no obvious large holes or tears. Instead it has thousands of crack and bare spots, in addition to having probable 10,000 nails 1/4 of an inch apart at every overlap. It's an asphalt roll roof product that is suppose to last maybe 5 good years and i think it's been there for 15. It's porous at this point. There is no question about replacing it. It's just a matter of when's can i do a quality job given the current weather. Even if i could find a 5 day dry spat in the near furture, it's still going to be damn cold. Is there a downside to putting torchdown on in cold temps? The roof 1/2 inch raised lip at the back and sides that has aluminium 90 degree flashing flush with the roof and the vertical cedar siding on the exterior walls. Very primitive. The front of the roof, where it drains, has a nice plastic gutter and downspouts that seem to work very well. So, no pooling or drain problems. I would like to pay someone for consultations on this issue. Maybe reviewing photos, then suggesting products and links to directions, then an appointment to get me started and a final inspection. hone: Thanks a bunch you guys. [email protected]


----------



## AaronB

I repeat my past response...you may be safer doing EPDM.


----------



## rolande

*Torch on Felt Application instructions.*

Hi Folks,

Instructions are available on the following web pages:

www.theroofcentre.vom/section%201.pdf

www.chesterfelt.co.uk/debotec.asp

There are others but these two together made the method clear for me without seeking an expert.

Good luck, Rolande 



MikeinBurien said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I are building a 400 sq foot extension to our house and doing all the work ourselves except the foundation. So far, all the walls are up and the roof rafters and OSB are going down this weekend.
> 
> I have an existing torch down roof with a 1:12 pitch and need to tie the new roof to the existing roof. Since the new extension is only on one half of the existing roof, the new roof is in the same plane as the existing roof. That's a pretty lousy explanation, but look at it this way. The original roof has only two sides that slope 1:12 from the middle. We're building the new extension so it extends only from half of the length of the house starting at the middle.
> 
> 
> After the OSB goes down we hope to install the torch down by overlapping the existing torch down for about 2 or 3 feet to assure no leaks. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> 
> Additionally, I've never put a torch down roof on, but it doesn't appear to be that hard. We have permits to do the work and we're pretty good at framing, electricity and plumbing, so how hard can the roof be?
> 
> Is anyone aware of a DIY site that explains the torch down procedure?
> 
> Thanks all! Nice site.
> 
> Mike - Burien, WA


----------



## Brik

Good job - I have done two of these DIY. Sorry I didn't jump in on the thread earlier. Did you use the granule coated or the uncoated top sheet? The first torch down I saw, and did not DIY, was on a house I owned. It was not pre-coated and then was finished off with a silver coating. I did tow, after watching it done, with a granule coated. I had no penetrations to deal with. I too read, and re-read, the mfgs documentation. I had a hose and fire extinguisher at the ready.

Now, what am I going to do with this darn torch in my garage!!! I spent $100 on the thing.


----------



## roofwiz74

you could burn weeds with it,light the grill,scare off solicitors.
sell it the classifieds.


----------



## Brik

Yea, also thought about trying to melt snow with it! For now its collecting dust in my workshop waiting for my next DIY torch down job!


----------



## johnk

*what a joke?*

its funny these guys out there thinking torch-on is so easy.I would like to see them do a completely flat roof.one guy says you dont want to heat the material so much where you see a pool forming.well that pool where i come from means something ,something that only comes with experience.and heating the top of the roll and not the deck,what a joke.and what about a top-coat for that roof of yours the suns gonna eat that in a year.is that app?if it is that has been outdated in my parts for years.everyones a pro:furious: :furious: :furious:


----------



## Brik

johnk said:


> its funny these guys out there thinking torch-on is so easy.I would like to see them do a completely flat roof.one guy says you dont want to heat the material so much where you see a pool forming.well that pool where i come from means something ,something that only comes with experience.and heating the top of the roll and not the deck,what a joke.and what about a top-coat for that roof of yours the suns gonna eat that in a year.is that app?if it is that has been outdated in my parts for years.everyones a pro:furious: :furious: :furious:


I sort of agree with you. I'm a DIYer but not your average DIYer mind you. I have done three of these. Watched a pro do one first and also watched training videos from the manufacturer of the product I used. Its NOT simple and I would NEVER recommend it to someone who is an average DIYer. There is sort of a technique to it. Like you say, heating the top sheet on the roll. It almost unrolls itself! I have done both types, ones with granules and one you need to brush on a top, finish coat. I prefer the granules. Oh, and those rolls are HEAVY!


----------



## nitty

*You can do it!*

good for you :thumbsup:


----------



## the roofing god

I know of 3 situations where professional roofers have burnt down buildings,just because you haven`t heard of it ,doesn`t mean it hasn`t happened---I would recommend using a self adhered system,certainteed,gaf,and polyglass all have excellent systems for this--I would hate to see the look on your face had something happened,and your insurance agent explained to you how you weren`t covered to use a torch to install anything on your home w/a torch,when you lack the necessary credentials,and necessary additional insurance--heck,a lot of roofers aren`t insured to do torchdown-it`s a special provision here in NY


----------



## cabgrace

A lot of talk on torch down...If I have a flat, tar & gravel roof and need to re-surface it, what is the best option? What is the cheapest option? I live in an area that experienced moderate snow fall. Should that be considered? I also have NO desire to take on this project myself and burn my house to the ground.


----------



## the roofing god

most flat systems require 1/4" per ft pitch(angle?) for drainage,and are not designed for ponding water,if you have pitch look at Certainteed flintlastic SA SYSTEM,OR GAF Liberty system,If very flat,Ib roof systems warrants their material for ponding water situations-but you need a certified pro for it


----------



## coolflatroof

Yea baby... IB is the way to go. We Have done the valley roofs (200 feet long inward pitched flat roofs) with it and when i see the owner of that roof, we usually drink a beer and talk about life. After 15 years of patching that roof, he finally forgot about it.









BTW, this goes to all courageous DIY-ers. I'm sure any one who actually burned some part or the entire house doing the ModBit torch down, will not come here to cry about it. They'll have more important things to do. So if you do decide to do-it-yourself, listen to the experienced fellas on this forum. Go with peel-n-stick or epdm. At least you won't burn the "home-sweet-home".
Also, there is nothing great about torch-down... it is a pretty crappy system that cannot take ponding water (well, most of the flat roof types can't), and usually leaks after 7-10 years anyway. 

Good luck


----------



## johnk

How can you say mod-bit is a crappy system that cannot take ponding?It can last a hell of alot longer than 7-10 yrs if installed right.There are just more eco-friendly,safer systems out there.That is why alot of companies shy away from torch-on,let alone the cost of fire insurance.There are roofs in Europe that are over 40 yrs old with the same mod-bit roofs on them.


----------



## the roofing god

you should check mfgr`s specs John,they require 1/4" per ft. for modified bitumen---and as far as the 40 year old mod bitumen roofs in europe--could you provide a link to something factual,or are you referring to BUR,AROUND HERE WE STARTED DOING MOD BIT EARLY 80`S,AND IT WAS NEW TO MY KNOWLEDGE,but please enlighten me


----------



## the roofing god

1/4" per ft. pitch is required by mod bit mfgr`s,where in europe?,what kind of mod bit?can you provide a link(mfgr`s name?),we started doing mod bit torchdown in early 80`s,not aware of it before then--You`re not referring to BUR are you ???


----------



## AaronB

Asphaltic products all need drainage. 

Eternal ponding on mod bit will allow water permeation. 

Polyurea will not allow water to migrate through, since it is a true vapor barrier.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

I first installed a modified bitumen roof, from Koppers, called KMM, back in 1978. The next brand of modified I was then made aware of, was Derbi-Gum, then Braii by US Intec, then Tri-Ply. There were 212 different labeled brands at one time back in the 80's when I investigated them, but there were only 12 different manufacturing facilities making all of these different private labels for resale. 

The Italians imported their technology here and one brand I was aware of in the early days was Nord Bitumi.
It is an asphalt petroleum based product and needs a proper slope for drainage for it to be a warranteed application.

Here, down below are some information about the history and introduction to the US, back in 1970.

Ed



*From:*
http://www.westamericanroofing.com/flat_roof.html
*APP Modifieds*: In order to create roofing grade asphalt, asphalt flux is air-blown at elevated temperatures which converts the flux to roofing grade asphalt. In the early 1970’s, the Italians, lacking the blowing equipment, were looking for a product that would convert asphalt flux into a usable roofing product. They discovered that if Atactic Polypropylene (APP) - a by-product of propylene polymerization - was added to asphalt then it gave the asphalt some plastic properties. They found that by adding about 30% of APP modifier, they could stretch the modified asphalt up to fifty percent of its original length before it would break. Next came the need to make it into a usable roll product. Some type of reinforcement would be needed. They looked into various reinforcement materials and decided on a polyester mat because polyester would accommodate the APP modified asphalt’s elongation properties whereas the more commonly used woven glass mats would not. The reinforcement material is dipped into the hot modified bitumen mix, then goes through a rolling cylinder, cooled, and then wound into a roll. APP membranes are applied using a torch. The back of the sheet has extra asphalt on it which, when heated, bonds to the substrate. This was especially convenient for the smaller, more cut up roofs because less room and equipment is needed on site to torch-apply a membrane than is necessary for application using hot bitumen.
*SBS Modifieds*: While APP was being looked into in southern Europe, northern Europe was experimenting with a different type of modifier called Styrene Butadiene Styrene (SBS). The French and Germans found that if they added 10%-15% of SBS rubber to asphalt, the asphalt’s characteristics changed to those of the rubber additive. They learned that they could stretch the SBS modified asphalt up to six times its original length and that, unlike the APP, it would return to its original size when allowed to relax. There are a wide range of reinforcements used in SBS roofing materials. These include fiberglass or polyester mats and scrims, or combinations of both. The fiberglass mats range in weight from 1.0 to 2.5 pounds per 100 square feet or around 50 to 125 grams per square meter. Polyester reinforcements range in weight from 3.5 to 5.0 pounds per 100 square feet or 170 to 250 grams per square meter. The type of reinforcement used depends on the material’s performance requirements. SBS membranes can be hot asphalt applied, torch applied, or cold process applied. 

*From:* 
http://www.3di.com/RnD/Files/Best Practices/Beyond the Twenty Year Roof.pdf
Modified Bitumen entered the United States marketplace
from Europe in 1970. It is a “built-up” system that takes
advantage of manufactured bitumenous sheets in lieu of
older felt technology. As the term “modified” implies, the
composition of the bitumen is changed by the
introduction of polymerized modifiers. The membrane
itself is constructed primarily with the polymerized
bitumen and reinforced with fabric plies of polyester,
fiberglass or a combination of both. Because the
membrane is factory produced rather than field applied,
the physical properties of the plies are consistent in
quality and maintain a uniform thickness. The
consistency and uniformity of the sheet results in a
membrane with greater stability and flexibility than found
in laminated felt systems.
Like built-up systems, modified bitumen can be installed
as a one, two or three-ply system with a cap sheet
acting as the final surface ply. The factory produced cap
sheet provides a membrane with high tensile strength,
low temperature flexibility and greater puncture​resistance than found in traditional built-up systems.


----------



## johnk

I think Ed explained it in detail where mod-bit came from and how long it has been around.I didn't say that I agree with ponding,but have seen lots of it and IMO mod-bit can handle this.I always address these issues when re-roofing.I've repaired lots like this,but was not refering to my workmanship.Needless to say I put my torch a few years ago for newer technology.


----------



## AaronB

I love my torch!!


----------



## johnk

Yeah I agree,I love my torch too.I just hate cost of insurance


----------



## AaronB

I just like fire. To be able to be productive with it is even better.


----------



## johnk

Do you have 911 on speed dial?Just kidding!Hi Aaron where about are you from?Still alot of torching going on there,or are companies getting out of it?


----------



## AaronB

There is a lot of it still going down. My rates are pretty good with my on-site insurance inspections and all. I do a lot of repair work though. I do not do many new installs with that system.

I am 30 miles SW of Chicago.


----------



## johnk

I'm not far from Vancouver B.C.There are still quite a few companies out here torching,but I mainly do TPO for my flat roofs.Insurance is between 20-30k a year on average for fire,compared to $1800 for TPO.So for me it's a no-brainer.Are you a Blackhawks fan then?My home team the Cannots(Canucks)I give up on years ago.Anyways,talk to you soon:yes:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

JohnK,

I am about 30 miles NW of Chicago, and this has been the first year that the BlackHawks have given us some hope for the future.

I used to go tho the old Chicago Stadium on the spur of a moment and get standing room only years ago, like in the mid-80's through the early 90's, and it was loud and wild.

Once old man Bill Wirtz kicked the bucket, his son stepped it up a notch and brought back the long time heroes.

Tony Espositos night for being announced as an ambassador for the team was last week Friday. What a steal we got from the Canadiens with him. Ken Dryden was no slouch either, though.

The young talented scorers they have now, finaly allow me to read about the team in the local newspapers once again, without having to hide which articles I read due to shame.

Ed


----------



## johnk

It's good to be able to be proud of your home team,unlike my home team,they always get your hopes up and then dive-bomb.The have never won the cup,at least Chicago has a few times.It's been awhile though,eh-1960-61?


----------



## Ed the Roofer

1971 was close, but Tony O let a red line shot bounce over his stick. Danged contact lenses.

Also the other year, much later on against Pittsburgh. To this day, that spin move that Jagr did was one of the most beautiful plays in hocky all time.

Too bad it was for the opposition. But, it was a thing of beauty. What grace and style and balance.

Ed


----------



## johnk

Sound like you know just as much about hockey as roofing.You should start a hockey forum.I know your knowledge is much appreciated around here and every other forum your a part of.It's good to know we all have your knowledge at our fingertips,thank-you!!:thumbsup:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

It is the best sport to see in person versus watching on TV.

Those late 60's and early 70's years were when I was just getting out of grammar school and into high school, so those memories are a vibrant reminder of what I liked as a youngster. 

We used to freeze our back yards over visqueen and build side boards about 12" high and also go to the local pond with a couple of cans of sterno to heat up the toes.

From following the league since they were the original 6, to the diluted years when they expanded too rapidly, until they started recruiting the Swedes and Russians, hockey was just a mere pittance of its former self. 

It seems to have gotten away from the dilution and the good ere and now, once again is ballet on ice with certain individuals.

I'm on too many forums already, so I'll let you start the hockey one.

Ed


----------



## mrconnecto

*torch down trail blazer*

Mike,

I've been considering DIY-ing my torch down, just got 'pro' quote for over $6K with tax for 1,300 sq ft. I know materials cost is a small percentage, right? I did some patching years ago and relatively easy, just with plumber's torch. I figure I'll rent a bigger torch this time. I haven't explored all your advice yet, but I'm in your 'neighborhood' - Seattle.

Thanks for blazing the trail on torch down - I'm a thoroughly experienced handyman, too, just haven't done this yet. If you'd followed all the admonishments and hired a 'pro' we wouldn't be here today.

Thanks again,
:thumbsup: Jonathan in Seattle


----------



## johnk

Why practice on your own roof?Torching is definitely not a diy project.It takes more than a few rolls to grasp the technique.It takes years of hands on experience.Your homeowners insurance will not cover you either,if you burn it down!Call the pros.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

mrconnecto said:


> Mike,
> 
> I've been considering DIY-ing my torch down, just got 'pro' quote for over $6K with tax for 1,300 sq ft. I know materials cost is a small percentage, right? I did some patching years ago and relatively easy, just with plumber's torch. I figure I'll rent a bigger torch this time. I haven't explored all your advice yet, but I'm in your 'neighborhood' - Seattle.
> 
> *Thanks for blazing the trail on torch down - I'm a thoroughly experienced handyman, too,* *just haven't done this yet.* If you'd followed all the admonishments and hired a 'pro' we wouldn't be here today.
> 
> Thanks again,
> :thumbsup: Jonathan in Seattle


I wish you the best of luck, but if you also read thoroughly, there have been many who have tried and failed, at least thankfully, with no serious injuries. 

There are news reports all of the time of some careless "Roofer-Wannabe", both Home Owner DIY'ers and Roofers without proper safety training, who have no business handling a torch on anybodys property, that burnt the structure down to the ground.

Read through this entire thread again and look for the safety guidelines and also any specific concern that would be relevant to your own health and welfare. Please.

Ed


----------



## the roofing god

Mr Connecto-do Yourself A Favor,and Look Into Self Adhered Systems ,like Certainteed Flintlastic,gaf Liberty,polyglass,mulehide Etc--all Are Good Products,and Have Less Risk Attached---in Fact The Certainteed Flintlastic Sa System With Nalable Base,interply Base,and Granulated Cap Sheet Carries A Better Warranty Than Most Torch Down(10 Yr) Systems,with A 15 Year System When All 3 Plys Are Used---also You Could Check Other Roofers,over 6,000$ Sounds High,and There Certainly Shouldn`t Be Any Tax Involved As It Is Considered A Capitol Home Improvement


----------



## Jeff in Albion

*Mike in Burien Torch down questions*

Mike,
Glad to see your post thread and success with your torch down on your addition. I have a rental that I need to do a roof on likely myself to conserve $$ and to learn a new skill. I've ripped off some roofs, built some additions and have done both rolled roofing and comp shingles but not torch down.
Some questions:
1. The existing is an old failing tar and gravel the roof has about a 12/2 or greater pitch, I wonder if the underlayment will go successfully over the sheeting that is there that won't be a slick and even as a new OSB or ply deck?

2. Penetrations and chimneys: for vents what do you put between the vent and the patch, do you use a roof jack like with comp shingles and put the patch over that.

Any do's and don't ideas would be appreciated by all...

Thanks,

Jeff in Albion


----------



## Serjio Holguin

HI Mike, i got to yhank you for posting this info. I am a journeymen carpenter by trade. I also can do anything in a house or out. shoot I can put a sublevel or multipal level house or structure where ever you need it all aspects you name it. but dont get me wrong there are some stuff i have not done ''small stuff''. Now I AM 31 years old, I started the construction feild wwhen I was 16. i had to lie about my age of course but that was back when you were able to do that.as the the time passes we got manufactureres comeing out with new product all the time .so it is up to us to keep up with all that. So when I say I am a do it yourselfer I mean I do it all by my self. now I do hire alabor or two wen the job is to big for one man. that way I don't run into those people who refer to themselves as ''THE PROS''. these people do not think the way you and I think. they do have the know how but they dont have what you and I have in mind and that is to save ourselves some money, cuz they want it and they want as much or more then the job is really worth.that is why they use the scsre tactics , like burning your house down or even worse your family. I mean come on they really must think we are all idiots. I think a true idiot would not even attempt something like this torch down. cuz of the fire hazard and he;s just plain niaeve, that he would let the contractor talk him into let him doing it.so i think they are wrong for wat they have said to you or anybody else in this matter. to direspectfully say and prey on people like you and I. For all they knowwe can be a whole lot smarter and resourcefull than them . I mean after all alls they do is lay rolled rubber and they all like you said have lines to help you alighn the overlaps, '' oh my lord that sounds like itis soooo hard'' ya right.any way Mike just wanted to thank you for being persistant and not giving in to the many asses. I found your post to be varry helpful. oh ya keep up the good work . your freind in the desert Serjio.


----------



## AaronB

Serjio Holguin said:


> HI Mike, i got to yhank you for posting this info. I am a journeymen carpenter by trade. I also can do anything in a house or out. shoot I can put a sublevel or multipal level house or structure where ever you need it all aspects you name it. but dont get me wrong there are some stuff i have not done ''small stuff''. Now I AM 31 years old, I started the construction feild wwhen I was 16. i had to lie about my age of course but that was back when you were able to do that.as the the time passes we got manufactureres comeing out with new product all the time .so it is up to us to keep up with all that. So when I say I am a do it yourselfer I mean I do it all by my self. now I do hire alabor or two wen the job is to big for one man. that way I don't run into those people who refer to themselves as ''THE PROS''. these people do not think the way you and I think. they do have the know how but they dont have what you and I have in mind and that is to save ourselves some money, cuz they want it and they want as much or more then the job is really worth.that is why they use the scsre tactics , like burning your house down or even worse your family. I mean come on they really must think we are all idiots. I think a true idiot would not even attempt something like this torch down. cuz of the fire hazard and he;s just plain niaeve, that he would let the contractor talk him into let him doing it.so i think they are wrong for wat they have said to you or anybody else in this matter. to direspectfully say and prey on people like you and I. For all they knowwe can be a whole lot smarter and resourcefull than them . I mean after all alls they do is lay rolled rubber and they all like you said have lines to help you alighn the overlaps, '' oh my lord that sounds like itis soooo hard'' ya right.any way Mike just wanted to thank you for being persistant and not giving in to the many asses. I found your post to be varry helpful. oh ya keep up the good work . your freind in the desert Serjio.


Well, no good deed goes unpunished. We recommend DIY'ers NOT doing torch down for good reason. IF you insist, then I hope you do have roofing torch insurance, and good luck.


----------



## AaronB

Also, please post some pics of your masterpieces when you're done.


----------



## coolflatroof

Hi Aaron,

Your website is down - you may wanna contact your webmaster or hosting company.

Also - want to send you an Email about that Spray Foam roofing thing we talked about - what is your email address?


----------



## AaronB

coolflatroof said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Your website is down - you may wanna contact your webmaster or hosting company.
> 
> Also - want to send you an Email about that Spray Foam roofing thing we talked about - what is your email address?


Yes, my website is being rebuilt at the moment.

Contact me at [email protected]


----------



## coolflatroof

Email sent.


----------



## duece

MikeinBurien said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I are building a 400 sq foot extension to our house and doing all the work ourselves except the foundation. So far, all the walls are up and the roof rafters and OSB are going down this weekend.
> 
> I have an existing torch down roof with a 1:12 pitch and need to tie the new roof to the existing roof. Since the new extension is only on one half of the existing roof, the new roof is in the same plane as the existing roof. That's a pretty lousy explanation, but look at it this way. The original roof has only two sides that slope 1:12 from the middle. We're building the new extension so it extends only from half of the length of the house starting at the middle.
> 
> 
> After the OSB goes down we hope to install the torch down by overlapping the existing torch down for about 2 or 3 feet to assure no leaks. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> 
> Additionally, I've never put a torch down roof on, but it doesn't appear to be that hard. We have permits to do the work and we're pretty good at framing, electricity and plumbing, so how hard can the roof be?
> 
> Is anyone aware of a DIY site that explains the torch down procedure?
> 
> Thanks all! Nice site.
> 
> Mike - Burien, WA


 you need to have a pro on hand your main worry is burning your house down insurance does not pay on this one even though it may seem simple it is not flame gets in where you can not even see it going in the long run trying to save a few dollars may cost you a lot more take it from a pro 30 year roofer


----------



## hooty1

*hack job*

I know this is an older post, but how is that roof doing?? I'm glad to see you had a consultant on the job. Torch down is nothing to mess with.. Yes you can burn down your house and the whole neighborhood. I dont think your insurance will cover that. Anyways, I hate it when a non pro puts instructions down on how to do something. All the sudden your a pro?? Also after 25 years of doing this, I have never burned my fingers. Must of done it wrong..Thats why there are trades and we or plumbers or electricians do the job the way we learned in school. Those roofs that blew off, how do you know they were put on correctly?? You cant knock it if you dont know it!!!


----------



## dougger222

My father has done torch down for some 35 years and never had one leak. We've done torch down on a few dozen jobs over the past 5 years and did have one leak, my father took the day off and it was one of my first solo torch down jobs. Although I thought the roof was pitched enough to flow water it didn't and water puddled and leaked. The fix was a 60 Mill EDPM roof over the torch down and it's good to go. 

This expensive lesson was a torch down roof is not made for standing water just like an asphalt shingle is not made to hold back standing water.

We do EDPM on most roofs these days and only do torch down on new construction roofs which get decks built on top. My theory is a granulated torch down under a deck is better than a EDPM due to the potential of a cig dropped on the roof. A flat roofing guy I know with Durlast got a call back on a commercial building with leaks. The leak was near the exit door by the break room. Turns out the employees of the company would flick there cigs up on the roof!!!

BTW, my master bedroom balcany has smooth torch under the slate.

For the record I don't get excited when it's time to do a torch down job. It's a dangerous roofing application not only for the building but for myself. 

Anybody watch Mike Holmes's TV show? His roofers do torch on almost every flat roof they work on.


----------



## hooty1

dougger222 said:


> My father has done torch down for some 35 years and never had one leak. We've done torch down on a few dozen jobs over the past 5 years and did have one leak, my father took the day off and it was one of my first solo torch down jobs. Although I thought the roof was pitched enough to flow water it didn't and water puddled and leaked. The fix was a 60 Mill EDPM roof over the torch down and it's good to go.
> 
> This expensive lesson was a torch down roof is not made for standing water just like an asphalt shingle is not made to hold back standing water.
> 
> We do EDPM on most roofs these days and only do torch down on new construction roofs which get decks built on top. My theory is a granulated torch down under a deck is better than a EDPM due to the potential of a cig dropped on the roof. A flat roofing guy I know with Durlast got a call back on a commercial building with leaks. The leak was near the exit door by the break room. Turns out the employees of the company would flick there cigs up on the roof!!!
> 
> BTW, my master bedroom balcany has smooth torch under the slate.
> 
> For the record I don't get excited when it's time to do a torch down job. It's a dangerous roofing application not only for the building but for myself.
> 
> Anybody watch Mike Holmes's TV show? His roofers do torch on almost every flat roof they work on.


Ya I watch HOH all the time. They also add a 1/4" matt under the smooth and then put granulated on top of that. Every state or country has there way of doing things. Here in Ohio, we put down the base and then smooth along with a silver coating after a few months to a year later. Your right, I don't get excited either. Between me and my four brothers we have almost 100 years experience. Good luck on next job.


----------



## dougger222

Here in MN we've always done ice and water/base/torch.

Of course the ice and water is not required but it's just another step we do. 

Speaking of years of experiance used to run a crew with a few years experiance,

Father 40 years
Uncle 30 years
Cousin #1 40 years
Cousin #2 35 years
Brother #1 15 years
Brother #2 12 years
Myself 17 years

We could hammer out 50sq 12/12 tear offs in a day!!!


----------



## hooty1

dougger222 said:


> Here in MN we've always done ice and water/base/torch.
> 
> Of course the ice and water is not required but it's just another step we do.
> 
> Speaking of years of experiance used to run a crew with a few years experiance,
> 
> Father 40 years
> Uncle 30 years
> Cousin #1 40 years
> Cousin #2 35 years
> Brother #1 15 years
> Brother #2 12 years
> Myself 17 years
> 
> We could hammer out 50sq 12/12 tear offs in a day!!!


I hear you man. They ended up putting us on all the 100 year old churches in town. Tearing off slate. Since the main co was all flat roofs, we were the only ones doing side jobs for years and nobody else wanted the 12/12's. 
it was nice, usually 6 months on a job, those were nice ones. Then we got stuck doing Spanish tile tear off on a college. That lasted for years. Anyways like I said, good luck. I'm retired now. 40 years old


----------



## dougger222

Sad thing is my cousin with over 40 years exp died of a massive heart attic last year, 55 years old. His brother has had strokes and is in no shape to work anymore, 57 years old. My father had another heart attack this Summer and his doctors told him to never go on a roof again, 55 years old.

Roofing is very hard on the body...


----------

