# How to convert existing R22 system to R410A



## pointedspider

First off I would like to say hell to everyone here. I am a jack of all trades. I am 33 years old and am a journeyman electrician, HVAC service tech, electronics tech, automotive tech, and the list goes on. I love HVAC! 

Can you convert your existing system from R22 to R410A? Well..... the answer is yes, yes you can. I have converted many, including my own, saved on electricity in the process.

Lets start with a heat pump split system and what you will need to get it done.

1- Know what your model number is and size of equipment(tons)
i.e. R2H336GKB (3 TON R22 HEAT PUMP)
REM2P3600A (3 TON R22 AIR HANDLER)

2- *An R410A compressor* of equilivent BTU. The "36" in the model 
numbers above represent the tonage and BTU, 36,000 BTU is 3 ton

3- *An R410A accumulator. *The one in there will not work.

4- *An R410A expansion valve (TXV)* inside and outside. the one in there will not work. This is the refrigerant metering device. If you have pistons inside and out the you are good, no need to change. If you have a piston in the heat pump and a TXV inside then you need to change the one inside to R410A. A 3 ton R22 piston (lol) will meter R410A just the same, I promise you!

5- *THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS YOU NEED:
+SKILLS*: YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT THE PROPER SKILLS
+*REFRIGERANT RECOVERY MACHINE AND TANK: *YOU *CAN GO TO PRISON* FOR VENTING R22!!!
+*VACUUM PUMP: *THIS PUMPS THE MOISTURE OUT OF THE SYSTEM
*+R11X FLUSH: *THIS CLEANS THE R22 OIL AND RESIDUE OUT
OF THE SYSTEM
+*OXYGEN/ACETYLINE AND BRAZING RODS (15% SILVER)
+R410A REFRIGERANT: 
(MUST BE EPA CERTIFIED TO PURCHASE)
+REFRIGERANT SCALE: TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOU HAVE PUT 
IN THE SYSTEM
+ BI-DIRECTIONAL FILTER DRYER
*
Install all the components and check for leaks. I dont know how other techs search for leaks but I usually use Nitrogen, since were doing this ourselves, I use 40-50 psi R410A. If the gauges do not move in 20 minutes, theres no leaks, i also use soapy water on all connections.
if there are no leaks, flush out the system. It may take a couple of flush kits but thats ok. now, I usually purge the freshly flushed system with R410A before I pull a vacuum. Pull a vacuum for at least 45 minutes. Read the Heat Pump name plate to see how much R22 the system needed. Its usually in ounces. (i.e. 110 oz=6.875lbs) 100/16(oz per lb)
the vacuum will pull in the refrigerant. I would stop at 4.5. Start the system. Observe the pressures. Note how much more you put in it. to charge it properly, look at the red gauge(high side) temp scale and take a temp reading of the liquid line. If they are about 10-14 degrees difference in those numbers, you are properly charged. Read the scale and take down the number of pounds you put in. Relabel the unit and denote it has been converted to R410A and how much is in it. Thats it!

Total cost around $1000


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## nap

> pointedspider;2000242]First off I would like to say hell to everyone here. I am a jack of all trades. I am 33 years old and am a journeyman electrician, HVAC service tech, electronics tech, automotive tech, and the list goes on. I love HVAC!





> +*OXYGEN/ACETYLINE AND BRAZING RODS (15% SILVER)*


*what are you using this for? Of course if you do braze you know you must purge the system with nitrogen and maintain it when brazing. I guess you just forgot to mention that.



+R410A REFRIGERANT: 
(MUST BE EPA CERTIFIED TO PURCHASE)

Click to expand...

when did they change that? from http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/faq.html#q3




Is section 608 technician certification required in order to purchase R-410A? 
HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance (such as R-410A or R-134a) are not covered under the refrigerant sales restriction. Therefore, section 608 technician certification is not required in order to purchase HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance. It remains illegal to knowingly vent HFC substitutes during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of appliances.

Click to expand...

you have made this sound too easy and in doing so you are very incomplete in your instruction, well, not really instruction but more of a summary but really, what good does a summary do anybody?*


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## ben's plumbing

converting r22 system to 410 a is not a diy project...


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## pointedspider

you are right about the nitrogen. but i find the task easy. ill be more informative next time


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## user_12345a

Going from r22 to 410a is silly - might as well get a new machine with a full warranty.

can do 407c but compressor oil has to be changed, or one of the direct drop in replacements that works with mineral oil.


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## Jnaas2

The pressures that 410 produces can cause the existing lines to rupture and cause severe damage to property and people why would any one tell people to do this on a diy site. People diy to save money not spend thousands on a hack job and endanger other people and themselves


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## Bob Sanders

user_12345a said:


> Going from r22 to 410a is silly - might as well get a new machine with a full warranty.


Yeah, I tend to agree... a bit silly. You have to replace 1/2 the system due to incompatibilities, and with that you get no warranty, no promise on how long it'll last. You may as well just replace the entire system and be done with it.

I should also add that any original seer or hspf rating the machine had is out the window


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## roughneck

Waste of time. You can't just "convert". 
If you want R410, buy equipment that's rated for it's use. 
It's also a poor idea to use straight refrigerant for pressure testing. A small change in ambient conditions will lead to large swings in psi reading.


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## beenthere

pointedspider said:


> First off I would like to say hell to everyone here. I am a jack of all trades. I am 33 years old and am a journeyman electrician, HVAC service tech, electronics tech, automotive tech, and the list goes on. I love HVAC!
> 
> Can you convert your existing system from R22 to R410A? Well..... the answer is yes, yes you can. I have converted many, including my own, saved on electricity in the process.
> 
> Lets start with a heat pump split system and what you will need to get it done.
> 
> 1- Know what your model number is and size of equipment(tons)
> i.e. R2H336GKB (3 TON R22 HEAT PUMP)
> REM2P3600A (3 TON R22 AIR HANDLER)
> 
> 2- *An R410A compressor* of equilivent BTU. The "36" in the model
> numbers above represent the tonage and BTU, 36,000 BTU is 3 ton
> 
> 3- *An R410A accumulator. *The one in there will not work.
> 
> 4- *An R410A expansion valve (TXV)* inside and outside. the one in there will not work. This is the refrigerant metering device. If you have pistons inside and out the you are good, no need to change. If you have a piston in the heat pump and a TXV inside then you need to change the one inside to R410A. A 3 ton R22 piston (lol) will meter R410A just the same, I promise you!
> 
> Using an R22 piston, will over feed the coils.
> 
> 5- *THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS YOU NEED:
> +SKILLS*: YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT THE PROPER SKILLS
> +*REFRIGERANT RECOVERY MACHINE AND TANK: *YOU *CAN GO TO PRISON* FOR VENTING R22!!!
> +*VACUUM PUMP: *THIS PUMPS THE MOISTURE OUT OF THE SYSTEM
> *+R11X FLUSH: *THIS CLEANS THE R22 OIL AND RESIDUE OUT
> OF THE SYSTEM
> +*OXYGEN/ACETYLINE AND BRAZING RODS (15% SILVER)
> +R410A REFRIGERANT:
> (MUST BE EPA CERTIFIED TO PURCHASE)
> 
> *No USA EPA certification required to buy R410A.Its in the same class as R134A.*
> 
> +REFRIGERANT SCALE: TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOU HAVE PUT
> IN THE SYSTEM
> + BI-DIRECTIONAL FILTER DRYER
> *
> Install all the components and check for leaks. I dont know how other techs search for leaks but I usually use Nitrogen, since were doing this ourselves,
> 
> I use 40-50 psi R410A. That IS an EPA violation.
> 
> If the gauges do not move in 20 minutes, theres no leaks, i also use soapy water on all connections.
> if there are no leaks, flush out the system. It may take a couple of flush kits but thats ok.
> 
> 
> now, I usually purge the freshly flushed system with R410A before I pull a vacuum. Unless your flushing it by using a recovery machine and cylinder, that would be another EPA violation.
> 
> Pull a vacuum for at least 45 minutes.
> 
> With all the RX11 used to "flush" the system. 45 minutes isn' going to be a good vacuum. Try using a vacuum gauge(micron).
> 
> Read the Heat Pump name plate to see how much R22 the system needed. Its usually in ounces. (i.e. 110 oz=6.875lbs) 100/16(oz per lb)
> the vacuum will pull in the refrigerant. I would stop at 4.5. Start the system. Observe the pressures. Note how much more you put in it. to charge it properly, look at the red gauge(high side) temp scale and take a temp reading of the liquid line.
> 
> 
> If they are about 10-14 degrees difference in those numbers, you are properly charged. Not really, specially if the house is hot when your charging with a fixed metering device.
> 
> Read the scale and take down the number of pounds you put in. Relabel the unit and denote it has been converted to R410A and how much is in it. Thats it!
> 
> Total cost around $1000


A person can buy a 3 ton Goodman heat pump for less then $1,000.00 on line. $886.04 at acwholesalers.com. Which leaves plenty of money for a new metering device or the inside unit. And a few bucks to spare towards tools.


While your idea may sound good at first. It actually cost more upfront, and probably in the long run.


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## HVACDave

Why would you convert to 410a and have a bunch of mismatched equipment to try and figure out how to make work without the proper skills or knowledge. This is just asking for trouble. 

Drop in some MO99 to replace the R22 and problem solved. No oil change necessary, no alterations to the existing system, all good.


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## roughneck

OP hasn't come back to back up his claims.......


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## WyrTwister

Jnaas2 said:


> The pressures that 410 produces can cause the existing lines to rupture and cause severe damage to property and people why would any one tell people to do this on a diy site. People diy to save money not spend thousands on a hack job and endanger other people and themselves



I may be wrong , but my research is if you buy *Mueller refrigeration copper tubing , it is the same now , post R410a as it was when R22 was the norm . Am I correct ? 

If so , why would the tubing in a converted system burst ?

Thanks ,
Wyr
God bless

*


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## digitalplumber

Since many of you pros have shot this down, I would suggest that it be pulled before some DIY'er hurts themselves!

Just my thoughts!


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## roughneck

WyrTwister said:


> I may be wrong , but my research is if you buy *Mueller refrigeration copper tubing , it is the same now , post R410a as it was when R22 was the norm . Am I correct ?
> 
> If so , why would the tubing in a converted system burst ?
> 
> Thanks ,
> Wyr
> God bless
> 
> *


Coils can have different pressure ratings, plus many older systems were soft soldered in and that will not stand up to R410 operating pressures


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## roughneck

Id love to hear a response from the jack of all trades OP


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## WyrTwister

I have also read the A-Coil will not stand the pressure found in R410a . I have also read all new A-Coils in the last 5 - 6 years were rated for the pressure and could be used for R22 or R410a .

So , you pays yours money and yous makes your choices .

But , the A-Coil is not subject ( I think ) to the high head pressure present in the liquid line , of the condenser . The expansion device takes care of that .

Best I remember , around 120 - 130 psi is about what you see on the suction line ?

The biggest red flag I see is how well the A-Coil and the lines get flushed out . The R22 system used mineral oil . My understanding is R410a systems use synthetic oil . The mini split R410a systems I have dealt with use POE oil . Is this true of the R410a central A/C split systems ?

How friendly is POE oil with any remaining mineral , oil that might be left some where in the system ? I am almost certain POE will tollerate small amounts of mineral oil , if only traces .

I am not saying do not change out the old lines . I am not saying do not change out the old A-Coil .

But , I read statements that essentially say " You CAN NOT DO this or that . " . Makes you wonder if they expect the world to come to an end , if some one does do the FORBIDDEN ?

Also makes me wonder if they are repeating the party line in an effort to butter their own bread , just a little bit ?

Keep in mind , not all of can drive an new luxury car , trading each year . Some of us drive older Fords or Chevys . Us poor folks have poor ways .

God bless
Wyr


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## digitalplumber

roughneck said:


> Id love to hear a response from the jack of all trades OP


 
Probably at home waiting for the service guy!


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## PoleCat

digitalplumber said:


> Since many of you pros have shot this down, I would suggest that it be pulled before some DIY'er hurts themselves!
> 
> Just my thoughts!


This thread happens to be very informative and will help anybody that is considering this alteration to see *why* it is not a good idea.

Just my thoughts!


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## roughneck

WyrTwister said:


> I have also read the A-Coil will not stand the pressure found in R410a . I have also read all new A-Coils in the last 5 - 6 years were rated for the pressure and could be used for R22 or R410a .
> 
> So , you pays yours money and yous makes your choices .
> 
> But , the A-Coil is not subject ( I think ) to the high head pressure present in the liquid line , of the condenser . The expansion device takes care of that .
> 
> Best I remember , around 120 - 130 psi is about what you see on the suction line ?
> 
> The biggest red flag I see is how well the A-Coil and the lines get flushed out . The R22 system used mineral oil . My understanding is R410a systems use synthetic oil . The mini split R410a systems I have dealt with use POE oil . Is this true of the R410a central A/C split systems ?
> 
> How friendly is POE oil with any remaining mineral , oil that might be left some where in the system ? I am almost certain POE will tollerate small amounts of mineral oil , if only traces .
> 
> I am not saying do not change out the old lines . I am not saying do not change out the old A-Coil .
> 
> But , I read statements that essentially say " You CAN NOT DO this or that . " . Makes you wonder if they expect the world to come to an end , if some one does do the FORBIDDEN ?
> 
> Also makes me wonder if they are repeating the party line in an effort to butter their own bread , just a little bit ?
> 
> Keep in mind , not all of can drive an new luxury car , trading each year . Some of us drive older Fords or Chevys . Us poor folks have poor ways .
> 
> God bless
> Wyr


The magical cure you read about or see on tv doesn't always work. Spend a few less $$ now, spend a lot more $$$$ later. 
Newer coils can be rated for both refrigerants. Older ones most certainly are not. 
Residential 410 will have POE


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## digitalplumber

PoleCat said:


> This thread happens to be very informative and will help anybody that is considering this alteration to see *why* it is not a good idea.
> 
> Just my thoughts!


 Very true, did not think of that! Now you would have someone trying to put all of the does and don'ts together! :no:


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## beenthere

WyrTwister said:


> I have also read the A-Coil will not stand the pressure found in R410a . I have also read all new A-Coils in the last 5 - 6 years were rated for the pressure and could be used for R22 or R410a .
> 
> Strange thing is, 10 SEER coils are made of thicker copper then 13 And SEER coils are. So older coils will take the pressure.
> 
> So , you pays yours money and yous makes your choices .
> 
> But , the A-Coil is not subject ( I think ) to the high head pressure present in the liquid line , of the condenser . The expansion device takes care of that .
> 
> Best I remember , around 120 - 130 psi is about what you see on the suction line ?
> 
> 300 PSIG when the A/C is not running and its above 95° outside.
> 
> The biggest red flag I see is how well the A-Coil and the lines get flushed out . The R22 system used mineral oil . My understanding is R410a systems use synthetic oil . The mini split R410a systems I have dealt with use POE oil . Is this true of the R410a central A/C split systems ?
> 
> If the mineral oil is less then 5%, its not a problem.
> 
> How friendly is POE oil with any remaining mineral , oil that might be left some where in the system ? I am almost certain POE will tollerate small amounts of mineral oil , if only traces .
> 
> I am not saying do not change out the old lines . I am not saying do not change out the old A-Coil .
> 
> But , I read statements that essentially say " You CAN NOT DO this or that . " . Makes you wonder if they expect the world to come to an end , if some one does do the FORBIDDEN ?
> 
> Also makes me wonder if they are repeating the party line in an effort to butter their own bread , just a little bit ?
> 
> Keep in mind , not all of can drive an new luxury car , trading each year . Some of us drive older Fords or Chevys . Us poor folks have poor ways .
> 
> God bless
> Wyr



Many techs are still following the myths that came out when R410A was first introduced.


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## beenthere

What the OP proposes, is probably a great thing or someone that just wants to do it. For the sake of seeing how well it will work.

Its just not cost efficient to do it though.


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## WyrTwister

roughneck said:


> Coils can have different pressure ratings, plus many older systems were soft soldered in and that will not stand up to R410 operating pressures


 Maybe I did not speak clearly . I was trying to address the line set , not the coils .

God bless
Wyr


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## WyrTwister

If I was going to convert from R22 to R410a , I would replace the whole condenser with a R410a condenser . I would think that would be less work than brazing / silver soldering in a new compressor ?

God bless
Wyr


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## WyrTwister

Assuming the line set is accessible and can be replaced , how would the cost of that compare to the R11 flush kits , to re-use the existing lines ? Say for a 25' length of line set ?

Assuming you were going to re-use the existing A-Coil ( I am tot saying to do so ) , wouldn't you need to flush it too ?

God bless
Wyr


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## sidejobjoe

This must be an elaborate trolling post .


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## beenthere

I don't "flush" line sets when switching over to an R410A system. I blow them out with nitrogen.


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## WyrTwister

How about the A-Coil , or do you replace the A-Coil ?

God bless
Wyr


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## supers05

I didn't replace one A-coil (last one i did this way) when converting, just the condenser. I regretted it after as it looked like Swiss cheese when pressure testing. I would fix one leak and another one behind it would show up. It did work in the end though. Same piston too. If it wasn't a very close friend and was trying to save a few pennies, i would have changed it anyways. Perfect SH once is was running. Flushed using nitrogen. The senior techs here don't believe in the flush, as you'll never get it all out anyways. 

From now on, I'm changing every a-coil when I'm upgrading. And linesets too if i have access to them.

Cheers!


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## beenthere

WyrTwister said:


> How about the A-Coil , or do you replace the A-Coil ?
> 
> God bless
> Wyr


Depends on how old the coil is. And its condition. Generally, if its a 13 SEER compatible coil, I'll reuse it.


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## comfortgranted

Their oil's do not mix! A new compressor, r-410, is needed. and a vacuum of the system. A new jet valve is needed in the AH evap. coil.


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## beenthere

comfortgranted said:


> Their oil's do not mix! A new compressor, r-410, is needed. and a vacuum of the system. A new jet valve is needed in the AH evap. coil.


Actually, POE and MIN oil do mix. Not the greatest, but they mix. Its a myth/wives tale that they don't.


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## WyrTwister

My understanding is it is best to get as much of the mineral oil out of the system as you can .

I think that is what you are saying ?

Also , I get the impression most R410a systems use expansion valves ? Or just mostly the heat pumps ?

God bless
Wyr


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## beenthere

WyrTwister said:


> My understanding is it is best to get as much of the mineral oil out of the system as you can .
> 
> I think that is what you are saying ?
> 
> Also , I get the impression most R410a systems use expansion valves ? Or just mostly the heat pumps ?
> 
> God bless
> Wyr


Yep, best to get as much of the MIN oil out as possible.

They use pistons or TXVs varying with the brand and SEER.


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## WyrTwister

They use both piston or TXV on heat pumps or straight A/C ? I am talking about above 13 SEER .

I take it all the above 13 SEER systems are R410a ?

God bless
Wyr


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## beenthere

Goodman has been using pistons on 14 and 14.5 SEER since 2010.

All residential units are manufactured as of Jan of 2010 are R410A.


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## jeff00

there is a much simpler solutions to the R-22 issue.

you can simply change over to RS-44



> RS-44 is a direct drop-in replacement for R22 in ac applications in systems with a capillary as well as an expansion device. There is no need to change the lubricant since, as with all the RS series of refrigerants, RS-44 is compatible with mineral, alkyl benzene and POE oils. RS-44 has been designated an ASHRAE number of R424A with an A1 classification. - See more at: http://www.acr-news.com/r22-replacement-made-easy#sthash.hEPbq97b.dpuf


or you can switch to MO99, also a 'drop in' replacement refrigerant for R22

Not sure why some many people over complicate things.

If the system is over 20 years old, simply replace the system and get the warranty a new system provides


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## beenthere

jeff00 said:


> there is a much simpler solutions to the R-22 issue.
> 
> you can simply change over to RS-44
> 
> 
> 
> or you can switch to MO99, also a 'drop in' replacement refrigerant for R22
> 
> Not sure why some many people over complicate things.
> 
> If the system is over 20 years old, simply replace the system and get the warranty a new system provides


You know this is close to a 2 year old thread.


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## jeff00

beenthere said:


> You know this is close to a 2 year old thread.


yes, but I never understood why people would try too make things overly complicated. 

Now it's gotten to the point that R22 is so expensive it's not worth trying to find or fix a leak. I just try and sell them a R410 system


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## beenthere

jeff00 said:


> yes, but I never understood why people would try too make things overly complicated.
> 
> Now it's gotten to the point that R22 is so expensive it's not worth trying to find or fix a leak. I just try and sell them a R410 system


I still work on a lot of R22 units. As long as they want to keep their equipment, and it doesn't appear to be on the verge of a major failure. I fix them, and recharge them with R22. 

I have some commercial accounts that a replacement gas would drop capacity too much, and they wouldn't be able to cool.

$600.00 for R22 is still cheaper then $6500.00 for a new system.


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