# Ground level deck



## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

So I am going to build a ground level deck out to a above ground pool, with another deck level with the top of the pool. 

I have many questions, so I will try to get to all of them one at a time.
I have a sliding glass door with a concrete patio out the back. Problem is when it rains it builds up on the concrete. The dirt is higher than the concrete so I plan on tilling the dirt to make it level. My confusion is with how to get the best out of my deck when it comes to the base. Do I pour concrete and attach metal base brackets to a 2x6 wood frame, or do I use the metal base brackets and attach it to a 4x4 block and then attach the 2x6's to the 4x4. I'm all sorts of confused. I don't want the brackets to show, and I want a smooth looking finish with no metal showing. How?

I have a picture of the backyard, but I want to extend the ground level deck from the end of the house in the left to before the small kitchen window on the right. 

Take a look and let me know my best options. I belive I also put down some weed block matting and sand? Help me out. Pictures of what to do are welcome. I need it! Thank you.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Do you mean a patio - with blocks ?
With the slider that low I can't see how you can build a deck


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

The slider is pretty low, and I am not sure what to do about that, but dig around the patio to make the dirt lower than the conrete, so most of the wood either rests of the concrete or get rid of the concrete all together....thats alot of work though.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If I was going to do this I would possibly look at having the concrete stained
The only way I would put a deck in is as a step up from the concrete
I also prefer a deck at the same level of the pool
Then possibly another deck lower to the ground

Found this online - very nice


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, thats nice. The only thing is there is not enough concrete to stretch to the end of the house as it is. I want to entertain and have a spot for a table as well as have something around my pool that looks good. I am getting one of those intex pools with the metal pools that keep it up, not a $3000 pool like the one in that picture. The one I have priced cost about $500- $800 for a 24' around a 52" deep. 

I was thinking once I level the ground around the concrete I can use sleepers so the deck will be level to the ground and just at the right heigth....


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

A ground level deck there will accumulate stinky water under it because you'll have to lower the ground level to accomodate the joist heights and there is insufficient drainage to get that water away from the deck and house. Put in a nice patio of concrete, bricks or whatever. It will last a lot longer than the deck, require less maintenance and not cause water problems.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> A ground level deck there will accumulate stinky water under it because you'll have to lower the ground level to accomodate the joist heights and there is insufficient drainage to get that water away from the deck and house. Put in a nice patio of concrete, bricks or whatever. It will last a lot longer than the deck, require less maintenance and not cause water problems.


How will stinky water accumulate under the deck. I don't plan on leaving everything as it is and just building. Right now I have 6 -8 inches from the patio to the bottom of the door to work with. I also noticed that when it rains it accumulates near the farthest corner away from the house, not near the house at all. (This is also a bad picture, I might add) This accumulation is because the dirt around the patio is not level with the patio. I think I can use concrete anchors on all four of the corners of the deck, but leveling the ground will take some tilling around the edges. If i do this I will have an inch or so to get some air underneath. 2x6 should work fine...I don't think any accumulation of water will happen if the area is level to drain out toward the yard.


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## II Weeks (Jan 6, 2009)

just did a similar job where the HomeOwner had a small cement pad and wanted a larger deck. We suggested to them to
increase the size of the cement pad and cover it with bluestone or some artificial stone.
Bottom line, it cost twice as much as a wood deck but they'll never have to change it. Power wash once in a while and 
thats it where as a wood deck . . .
pros and cons to everything.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> just did a similar job where the HomeOwner had a small cement pad and wanted a larger deck. We suggested to them to
> increase the size of the cement pad and cover it with bluestone or some artificial stone.
> Bottom line, it cost twice as much as a wood deck but they'll never have to change it. Power wash once in a while and
> thats it where as a wood deck . . .
> pros and cons to everything.


So increase the slab. Ok I do see your point, but I have never poured a concrete slab in my life, and the one I have now is cracked already. I have used the concrete crack filler, and I wouldn't mind a bigger slab, but I want it to look very nice for entertaining. Any pictures?:huh:


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## diy'er on LI (Jul 6, 2009)

I think the other poster was saying water would accumulate beneath the deck becuase you would have to remove the concrete and excavate the earth below in order to accomodate the deck footings... would form a lake down there when it rains...

I agree with others... pavers are the way to go. It's difficult to see the details of your lawn and patio.... but it almost looks as if the soil grade might pitch towards the house by a couple degrees. If installing a paver or brick patio, you definitely want it to pitch AWAY from the house by a few degrees. This is the current problem in our yard. If the pitch of your cement patio isn't correct, or if there is a significant crack in it, you might want to demo it, and establish a paver patio on the undisturbed earth below. 

There are a lot of websites explaining paver installation.... It's backbreaking work and you'll have to rent some equipment, but it's fairly straight forward from what I understand....


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## d.sharkey (May 31, 2009)

Paver's, or a whole new concrete pad i'd recommend. Great for drainage, and high traffic areas. Labor intensive, Yes, but will out last wood.
Wood decks/pressure treated frame, close to the the ground or not should be on piles, sonotube and concrete with brackets set in. Most support and movement, you can buy brackets that set into the concrete to fit 2x6 Does the whole back yard slope from right to left as in the pic?? A Pool needs a smooth level base does it not? May have to level the yard first?


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

*24' pool with deck*

Geez, I didn't realize the picture would be taken so literally. The picture is a bad one at that. It does not slope from right to left. There is a crack in the cement slab, but it does slope away from the house. Like I said before it does not collect water near the door at all. It collects at the farthest point away from the house. The gradeing is fine, except for the crack. I am also not worried about the pool because I am having it professinally done and they grade the yard with a bobcat and level everything with cement sand. No worries on that part. Next weekend I am cutting trees and stump grinding. After this I will have to pour something into the stump I am going to grind because it will be under the pool, and I don't want any sink holes after the fact. 
I think paving the patio or replacing the entire thing is too costly for me at this point. I'm not going to live in this house forever, and breaking up a 6 inch slab of concrete 9 1/2 ft wide is not going to happen. I have seen many instances where sleeper boards are used and anchored to the concrete with wedges underneath the sleepers. Besides I explained the complication to the wife and she wants a deck non the less. So daddys gotta give her what she wants. I think it will last for the time I am in the house or possibly longer. 
I will anchor wedge bolds into the concrete and if needed further from the concrete, I will use concrete piers for support. I must have some type of anchor though. From there I will probably build an octagon shape for some stairs up to the pool and then a larger deck on the side of the pool. Something large enough to accomodate some outdoor furniture. 

Here is a better picture for now, of the back patio. And a very rough scetch of what I may do with the decking. No intex pool...upgraded to a real above ground pool. Thats another reason why a patio is not in the budget.








My Sketching skills


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

Could you do it something like this picture where there is a step and then up to the first deck which actually would be about 12" off the ground? The deck would be on footings.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

That would be nice but my the pool is going to be about 3 ft from the slab in my backyard. I have almost no room when it comes to the patio up to my pool. This is why i was thinking of a stacked deck up to the pool. I am going to have them bury it a little bit so as to not be too high.


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

Couldnt you do something like this, then hae it overhand only the 3 feet to the pool? or have this be the same as the slab, an then step up in around the pool?


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

can you take the "sketch" you have and add some dimensions to it and i can see what you are playing with? house wall and slab size and where the pool will be with the height of the pool and diameter?


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

This is all I have for now. I did a rough estimate last night. 
View attachment 12449


This is the approximate layout of my back yard








Hope this helps


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

Another design I had which i really like. It gives me more deck to work on, but it looks nice.


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

what about someting like this. the deck by the house is raised with a area for stairs. then there is stairs going from there to the main deck around the pool?


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

Its nice and all, but I have 3 kids, 11, 7, and 5. I am a bit worried about the 7 and 5 year old kids. One can barely touch bottom and the other cannot at all. I wanted to do the above deck because I can still have a deck off the back porch anchored by the patio and have a gate at the stairs to keep out the kids. Nice design though. You must have some software to do that. Nice. I think having a section where it steps up to a small deck area would be a waist of space though, and would definitely collect water near the door with the surrouding wood.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

I think I can manage some 4x4 posts sunk in concrete around the concrete slab and then worry about anchoring it down after its complete, if at all. The wood alone would anchor it down. I am thinking in hopes that it is behind my house and I don't have to use a permit for anything. Unseen, and possible yup in one day.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Be prepared to pay fines & penalties if you do not pull a permit
In some cases these fines & penalties can be VERY expensive
A nieghbor decided to redo his deck without a permit
Inspector had a chat with him, not sure of the outcome


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

I have a friend who rebuilt his deck with no permit. Did everything the same if not more sturdy, and no permit. Who knows. I just don't want them saying that I can't built it because of the slab. I also built a 12x16 shed with my father in law and he recieved a notice to stop work and pay $75 showing schematics. All that sh*t is, is the city wanting money for another damn thing you build. I think its bullsh*t anyway! If they stop my work, then I will get everything together to pay there fine. I'm not worried to much about it. I wil do it all in one day. Keeps it quick and simple. 

I did notice that every deck I see just has the 4x4 straight into the ground and concreted in. Even on some very expensive houses. I guess that is code as long as it is below the freeze line. I plan on sinking my posts about 12"-15" deep.


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

Keep in mind that if someone by any chance ever gets hurt by it falling there is even a greater chance for libility on your part. without mo inspections pulled. they dont cost much at all. around me its like 100 or so.

Its alot easier to do the work inside of your house without a permit then it is on the outside.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> Keep in mind that if someone by any chance ever gets hurt by it falling there is even a greater chance for libility on your part. without mo inspections pulled. they dont cost much at all. around me its like 100 or so.
> 
> Its alot easier to do the work inside of your house without a permit then it is on the outside.


My answer to that is that for a ground level deck, it doesn't have very far to fall. A GRAND TOTAL of 4 inches. :thumbup: Seriously, if it falls...it would be a framing problem, and I have never had problems with the way I reinforces my framing. You should see my workbench in my garage. Besides, it would just slant if it did. The deck isn't 5ft off the ground or anything. :laughing: I appreciate the advise though.


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## Stillwerkin (Nov 24, 2008)

Not sure, but I think there code issues with pools which should be researched first. 
Something about the lip having to be more that 4 feet off the ground to prevent children from falling in, and/or the entire pool-area has to be enclosed with a fence.
It would be a shame to build it, then get dropped by the insurance company and fined/condemed by the city. 

A big pool right in front of the patio door might be a little overwhelming. I'd suggest moving it next to the garage or a little to the left of the kitchen windo next to the fence.
I would also recommend trenching the ground in front of the patio. From the picture it looks like water runs downhill right into the doorway.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

You’re at a point to really consider refining this layout for “value added”. You want people to say, “Wow, what a deck!” Not just, “Oh, a deck. How nice.”

I’m going to take the presumptuous position of suggesting a few things.

One, although you may not see it now, your projected egress to the pool, those steps, will possibly grow to be a source of inconvenience to you. Steps should lead from one deck level to another… not to a three foot wide corridor around the pool to the other deck. And going straight up to the pool like that is not really the best approach. To effect more ergonomic functionality, you might consider a single step (to the left as you leave the house) leading up to an intermediate deck level in that open area over where your barbeque?? now sits. Then the other step up to pool level over where the bigger deck now begins. Somewhat similar to your second drawing.

This will eliminate an opposing traffic bottleneck on that potentially dangerous 3’ walk-around. It will remove the awkwardness of coming right to the pool edge as you climb the stairs with your hands full of drinks or food. And it will create a very welcome second semi-private conversation area on a 12’x15’ ?? intermediate deck.

If you are considering incorporating railing mounted seating around your perimeter (a beautiful and functional addition since chairs all over the deck are a hassle), you might want to construct those 90 degree outside corners to be rounded or angled, so the seating will flow smoothly. Square corner seating just does not work because we humans have knees that knock into other people’s knees at square bench corners.

Lighting. Because you have a pool, you will likely be restricted in how close you can come to the water’s edge with electricity… AND possibly also be required to maintain a certain fixture height. But the two corners of the bigger deck would be ideal locations for full-height 8 or 10 foot posts (run them right up from the foundation) with lamps on top.

One more point for eliminating that 3’ walk-around and moving the steps is that in the place they *were*, you now have an ideal spot to construct a poolside serving shelf. Walk out of the house, and go straight to the poolside to place drinks for the kids. It will be a good place to set sunglasses, toys, and earplugs too.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Drawn without the necessary and required railings because that's a lot of work, and I'm lazy. This gives you the rough idea.

You have three, independent, good size deck areas, yet they are all joined as a continuious unit.

This configuration effectively keeps the two lower decks dry from the kids getting in and out of the pool. Much nicer for the adults. And also because of the length of the distance from the pool exit to the step on the big deck, all the steps stay relatively dry. A BIG safety factor.

By the way, in effect, you only have to build ONE step this way. And this (with 7" step ups) gives you about 28" from the ground to the top of your pool.

Go to the right top toolbar, click on <PAGE>, then ZOOM, and blow this up to 200%.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

With some railings. Could probably use a railing in front of that shrubery.

Added a couple of lamp posts.....


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I think that looks good
He posted a design on 7/31 that is similar

With 4 kids make sure the railings meet code for your area
My son is 3 & he can't touch bottom yet in our inground pool (all fenced in)
Next year I think he will be tall enough for the shallow end

I pour a concerete pier - around here we have to go 42-48" deep
On top of the concrete pier is a metal bracket that nails to the 4x4 post
Putting the post in the concrete will rot out the post faster
All depends upon the climate & soil as to how fast
I've seen posts that were rotting in as little as 6-7 years


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

By the way.......... This is an example of what you might want to be mounting your posts on. Most of this is underground. The post fastens to the metal bracket on top... totally clear of the ground.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

I will not need a bunch of concrete that is in the ground and then place the simspons connectors on top. No need for that around here. It does get humid throughout the summer but almost every deck thats built, even in the very pricey neighborhoods arte built with the 4x4 in the ground. 

I would like to say that all the desisns are amazing and thank you very much for giving me a better vision of what I had in mind. You just made everything a whole lot better to envision. I am about to start the framwork first and because I have to work with 2x4's on the ground, I am not to worried about flexing or having to use 2x6 farther from the deck. Besides I am tired of digging anyway, unless it is for leveling. Coffee's almost gone so Its time to get to work. I will post some clear pictures of my progress later. New digital camera works great.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Willie T,

Those are some great designs. I love your ideas.


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

So far I have used 2x4's and framed everything. Put 1ft 2" braces in between all the joists and sunk 4x4 posts and concreted them in. 18x12= 216 sq ft. Plenty of room. Will be adding to what already is there with additional plate forms like Willy T showed...in time. I'm far from rich but I will be getting a pool next year so, I am looking forward to that. Nothing says a little at a time can't be done. I will have my deck done this weekend. Once I get this darn computer to work on the pictures I will upload some. If you can see the picture below, than try too. If not, sorry I will try later on.


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## jongordo8 (Aug 28, 2009)

Are 2x4's acceptable for a deck floor...I have always seen 2x6's or 2x8's used?

Also...what software are you guys using to design those decks, its awesome!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

jongordo8 said:


> Are 2x4's acceptable for a deck floor...I have always seen 2x6's or 2x8's used?


He's building this partially on top of a cement patio
2x4's will not span that great of a distance, so usually not used

Pic is very small


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

When you zoom his picture up, it appears he is using 2x8's.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

jongordo8 said:


> Also...what software are you guys using to design those decks, its awesome!


Mine is SketchUp.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Willie T said:


> When you zoom his picture up, it appears he is using 2x8's.





Daddyshammer said:


> So far I have used 2x4's and framed everything. Put 1ft 2" braces in between all the joists and sunk 4x4 posts and concreted them in


Looks can be deceiving..........


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

This is the before and after. Big difference. Who said that a 2x4 wouldn't hold up. Ground level and it has no where to go. No creeking, plenty of stability and looks great with the furniture. I'm very happy with the way it turned out. Let me know what you think too. :thumbup:

Yes, I waas short one freaking board. Future project...put in the last board!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Looks good, a deck adds a lot of useable space outside
We enlarged our pool area patio last year & it made a huge improvement
I moved our fence to include a 24x40 area - tons of space now


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## jongordo8 (Aug 28, 2009)

looks very nice, great work.

So is that cedar or did you use a different species of wood?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Nice. Now get you some railings up before someone shoves back in one of those chairs, busting their head on one of those rocks in the ground.


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

Mine is a mechanical design software called solidworks. 

i dont think by code he actually needs a railing. doesnt it need to be like 30" aboue grade for a railing? (i may be wrong)


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

baum said:


> Mine is a mechanical design software called solidworks.
> 
> i dont think by code he actually needs a railing. doesnt it need to be like 30" aboue grade for a railing? (i may be wrong)


No, by code he doesn't need a railing. Your point is?

EDIT: I apologize for the bluntness of that statement, but not for posting it. I get thoroughly exasperated at people looking to the code for an excuse not to build well and safely. There is no code requiring you to put child-safe caps in your receptacles either. But we do it anyway because we know it might keep our children from being electrocuted.

You can look right at his picture and see an accident waiting to happen. Why would you NOT put up a railing in that situation?


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## baum (Jul 14, 2009)

i would be all for it. but its not my deck.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

There's no sense putting railings up until he's done
This is only Stage 1 until his pool goes in


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

From a safety and liability point of view, theres no sense or logic in NOT putting up railings if people are going to be using those chairs.

The pool is a year away. Too many lawsuits and/or hospital bills between now and then might make it difficult to afford a pool at all.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My deck went about 8 months before railings went up
If I was adding on I would not put railings up until the final layout was decided & installed


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> Nice. Now get you some railings up before someone shoves back in one of those chairs, busting their head on one of those rocks in the *ground*.
> __________________
> "True eloquence consists in saying all that is necessary, and only that which is."
> François Duc de La Rochefoucauld
> Willie T


Funny, because my wife just did that the other day but did not hit her head. Very rare, but she was a little tippsy No railing for this deck will be added. The pool is going right in front of it and more deck will be added around the pool once it is in the ground. Railing would restrict this from the rest of the yard on both sides and would not look good at all. 

The rocks...Those I dug up from under the grass when I was leveling, before I started the deck. I believe the prior owners had rocks from the patio to the side door of our house, and then just let everything grow over it. Those will have to come up later. I used it to hold down the weed block fabric. to keep the grass out for building. The rocks you see in the picture are going to be gathered up and tossed, unless I can find another use for them on another project. 

Glad it hear it. I think it turned out pretty nice myself.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Daddyshammer said:


> Funny, because my wife just did that the other day but did not hit her head. Very rare, but she was a little tippsy No railing for this deck will be added. The pool is going right in front of it and more deck will be added around the pool once it is in the ground. Railing would restrict this from the rest of the yard on both sides and would not look good at all.
> 
> The rocks...Those I dug up from under the grass when I was leveling, before I started the deck. I believe the prior owners had rocks from the patio to the side door of our house, and then just let everything grow over it. Those will have to come up later. I used it to hold down the weed block fabric. to keep the grass out for building. The rocks you see in the picture are going to be gathered up and tossed, unless I can find another use for them on another project.
> 
> Glad it hear it. I think it turned out pretty nice myself.


That's cool. I guess I didn't understand you all's relationship...... :whistling2:


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> That's cool. I guess I didn't understand you all's relationship...... :whistling2:
> __________________


Yeah, falling rarely happens around my house, or drinking. Not worried about the railing though. My dog trips over sh*t more than anyone else in the house does. My friends and family don't file lawsuits, so I think I will be able to buy a pool. Thanks for the saftey tip though Willie.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I just noticed the picture on the Project thread
It almost looks like you used REg 2x4's instead of PT
One thing I dislike about the new PT, it can quickly look like reg wood
I burn all my scrap - so I make sure I put any PT scrap out in a special pile - not to burn


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

> I just noticed the picture on the Project thread
> It almost looks like you used REg 2x4's instead of PT
> One thing I dislike about the new PT, it can quickly look like reg wood
> I burn all my scrap - so I make sure I put any PT scrap out in a special pile - not to burn


Come'on, I'm not stupid. It is PT, I promise. I checked the bill..$$$..hahaha!:laughing:. Which really wasn't that bad when it comes down to doing it yourself.
I do agree that it looks like regular 2x4's because it is so light in color. My buddy that came over earlier that evening took the trimmed left over 2x6 boards to make some sort of flower box out of. 
I have to wait a couple of weeks before I can seal it though, because it was still wet when it was put down, and it got even more wet, when it rained for about 3 or 4 days the day after the boards were laid. Then is stopped and rained for another 2 more days or so. It sucked. I think today was the only day it was dry and looked good again. No problem though. I am going to get the last couple boards and lay them down tomorrow, with a couple other honey-do-things to do. Like clean out my garage.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

No I figured it was PT
I have some stacked out back along with other "scrap" wood
After a year in the sun I have to look carefully to make sure which is PT & which isn't
I did my deck in late Fall & the last 3 deck boards & railings had to wait until Spring


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## Daddyshammer (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah, I have been busy this summer. I will be busy next summer too. WE are getting a pool and I will be building additional decking around the pool. I will need to get a permit for that though, because it is a raised deck, and I don't want to get building it and have to stop right in the middle of it. 
I just put the last deck board on the deck, and I bought 2 additional boards to add to the front to make a little bit of a hang-over or (lip) like the sides already have. I am just waiting for it to dry before winter comes so I can get it sealed and ready for the cold months. Not really looking forward to that, but at least I have a nice deck to use once it starts warming up nect spring.


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