# Which Flashing?



## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

The 'taller' one that provides more overlap.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

the 2"x1"x3" Z-bar is what you want...your second option.

Also, it appears in your pic you have the 3" at the wall...i dont see it or install it that way, the 2" goes behind the siding / stucco and the 3" is what we tuck the roofing under.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

How do you replace the roofing under the 3"?

And....does 2" give me enough room for the weep screed that has to go on there? So I install the weep screed about a 1" above the Z?


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

The 3" gives you a bit more play when it is time to redo the torch down. The 2" behind the siding or stucco is plenty...you could have some custom size made to fit your application if you wanted. 

I'm a roofer, but from what i have seen in OC & LA in the last 20+ yrs is just the 2x1x3, no weep screed ( just for that particular transition). The Z is the only transition metal needed in that situation.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

so....you just nail a stucco j channel right down to the transition?


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

nope, the Z is your transtion metal.

It is installed to the wall and the lath paper comes down over the 2" section. Is this right, i dont know, but its the way every home in So Cal is done with very few exceptions. Of course this is only used at the transition from the wall to your torch down... diff transition metals for different situations.

You could get it made any size you want it, even colored...just depends on what you want. I use a company in Placentia and one in Orange when i need it a specific size and or color.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> The 'taller' one that provides more overlap.


+1

Other one doesn't have nearly enough overlap.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Well first of all its not flashed right. There is supposed to be a 45 degree cant strip at the angle change, under the field sheet, and the field sheet should extend to the top of the cant strip. This provides that all important water dam, and allows the membrane to turn in a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90. The deck sheet should then be degranulated on the cant and 4 inches out on the deck and the flashing sheet should extend min 4 inches above the top of the cant, across the cant and out onto the deck 4 inches, The counter-flashing should be a 2 piece snap in to allow replacement of the flashing.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Agreed the wall flashing, or lack there if is not done correctly. As for the counter flashing use a 2 pc system like this http://www.metalera.com/Products/Accessories/2_Pc_Counterflashing.aspx

Even the "taller" one doesn't have enough coverage. Also the top of the wall flashings should be term bared off or nailed off.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

jagans said:


> Well first of all its not flashed right. There is supposed to be a 45 degree cant strip at the angle change, under the field sheet, and the field sheet should extend to the top of the cant strip. This provides that all important water dam, and allows the membrane to turn in a 45 degree angle, rather than a 90. The deck sheet should then be degranulated on the cant and 4 inches out on the deck and the flashing sheet should extend min 4 inches above the top of the cant, across the cant and out onto the deck 4 inches, The counter-flashing should be a 2 piece snap in to allow replacement of the flashing.


I'm going to have to partially disagree.....construction methods on the West coast differ quite a bit from how you do it....

I had a couple different roofers look at my roof...both were saying the same thing....and my inspector said it was fine....

What I wasn't sure about was how to do the base of the stucco.....I've seen some houses where the weep screed stopped above the transition....

More research needed....

My goal is not to just do it to code...but to do it so that I never have to worry about leaks.


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## PatChap (Nov 17, 2012)

90degree verticle turns on modified will fail in 5-7years. It will crack at the joint, especially at the inside corner. It is a small fix now, where in 5 years .....


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

PatChap said:


> 90degree verticle turns on modified will fail in 5-7years. It will crack at the joint, especially at the inside corner. It is a small fix now, where in 5 years .....


Can you translate to English?

Moot point now....I found this link....my answer was on the last page.

http://www.tsib.org/pdf/plaster-assemblies-chapter-06-three-coat-plaster-stucco-details.pdf


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

What you have is pretty typical of what is done on the west coast. Yes the cant strip would have been helpful, but doute it would fail in 5 yrs... even if its just a one layer over a base sheet it will hold up longer than that without cant strip. 

A two pc flashing makes good sense, but not the one in the link... it appears to be set up for an existing finished wall. You dont need to cut a reglet, eliminate that part of the flashing in lieu of something that nails to the OSB/Ply then stucco or side over it properly. Re doing flat roofs is a steady source of work in OC, i have yet to see any two pc flashing in 20+ yrs, but i like the idea of it.

I guess i assumed you ment the one in the link, but they do have one here:
http://www.metalera.com/Accessories/Products/2_Pc_Counterflashing-(1).aspx

ddawg16 - that flashing on the last page would have to be custom made, plenty of shops around here capable of doing so.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

AndyWRS said:


> What you have is pretty typical of what is done on the west coast. Yes the cant strip would have been helpful, but doute it would fail in 5 yrs... even if its just a one layer over a base sheet it will hold up longer than that without cant strip.
> 
> A two pc flashing makes good sense, but not the one in the link... it appears to be set up for an existing finished wall. You dont need to cut a reglet, eliminate that part of the flashing in lieu of something that nails to the OSB/Ply then stucco or side over it properly. _*Re doing flat roofs is a steady source of work in OC, i have yet to see any two pc flashing in 20+ yrs, but i like the idea of it.*_
> 
> ...


If you want a MB roof that lasts. You will install it in two plies, a smooth ply and a cap sheet over a mechanically fastened Glass base sheet as a shear plane. You will use a cant strip at vertical transitions and flash with two plies of Modified bitumen per the manufacturer's detail drawings. You want the top of the flashing to be at least 8 inches above the deck. Just because everybody else does it wrong, there is no sense following them over the cliff, especially if this is your own home, wherein you have control.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

For the record my link was just so the OP could get an idea of what flashing he needed. It was not specific to his situation. Anything he does will need to be shop formed. Easy to do with a decent metal shop.

Also for the record, the flashing and field sheet should be two separate pieces. I don't care how they do it on the west coast or what a state inspector said. If we installed a roof like that it would not pass a manufactures inspection. 1. No cant strip. 2. Flashing not installed properly. 


If you have never seen a 2 pc receiver style counter flashing in 20+ years I don't know what your looking at. We run in to it all the time, and install them all the time. Even have made some that were surface mounted. Much easier to unscrew a few sheet metal screws then to mangle up a counter flashing trying to get under it.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

1985gt said:


> For the record my link was just so the OP could get an idea of what flashing he needed. It was not specific to his situation. Anything he does will need to be shop formed. Easy to do with a decent metal shop.
> 
> Also for the record, the flashing and field sheet should be two separate pieces. I don't care how they do it on the west coast or what a state inspector said. If we installed a roof like that it would not pass a manufactures inspection. 1. No cant strip. 2. Flashing not installed properly.
> 
> ...


Once again...this seems to vary by location.....the stuff done on the west coast is somewhat different than the East and NE....

I'm 4 miles from the ocean....no snow....we 'might' get 12" of rain a year....in winter...I'm still wearing shorts.....


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

This is how I'm going to be doing mine....

Thanks for all the input guys....


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

ddawg16 said:


> Once again...this seems to vary by location.....the stuff done on the west coast is somewhat different than the East and NE....
> 
> I'm 4 miles from the ocean....no snow....we 'might' get 12" of rain a year....in winter...I'm still wearing shorts.....



I've never seen two sections in a manufactures manual, one for west coast and one for the rest of the world. 

Just because someone thinks that is the way it should be done doesn't make it true.

http://www.tamko.com/Libraries/Documents_-_Construction_Details/TAMKO%c2%ae_Construction_Details_AWP-12_Wall_Flashing.pdf

http://technicaldatabase.fsbp.com/downloadFile.ashx?fileId=[fid=19156|pid=747]


But yeah good luck with the project.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

From a flashing stand point, which is what the OP is asking about, the detail shown is problem free. I agree it could be 2 pc which would help with reroofing it in the years to come...but the proposed detail is not wrong.

Any roofer worth a damn can reroof that when the time comes and not F up the existing Z bar. I dont need a 2 pc wall flashing, but it is a great option and i will surely be using it if i can (room additions, new construction). 99% of what is here in So Cal is that flashing detail shown in the OPs most recent post...with the exception of the demensions of the zbar which is usually 2x1x3.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Not saying the counter flashing he is using is wrong, at least this one. The two previous ones were to small. I'm just saying there is other/better ways to do it. Only thing I would add to the proposed flashing would be a hem and a kick.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I do like the idea of the hem, but its a wall flashing dripping on to modbit kick or no kick... why the drip kick? You got me curious.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

English....can we speak English?

One thing I'm wondering about....10-20 years from now...how would a roofer remove what is behind the flashing to replace it? 

Also....one of the things I've learned....water intrusion is not always because of a leak....quite often it's caused by weeping....so...is water going to be able to weep up inside the flashing?

I do plan to caulk and paint that top portion of the 1x6....just in case any water gets up there.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

ddawg16 said:


> English....can we speak English?


What the detail in your post shows is to the left, a drip edge kick is the middle and the hem is the right.

I could see heming the far left one, but the far right one is not going to sever any purpose. Either one of the three will still drip on the Modbit...unless i misunderstand what 1985gt is talking about. Afterall, we on the west coast only know about building bean sprout sandwiches


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

AndyWRS said:


> I do like the idea of the hem, but its a wall flashing dripping on to modbit kick or no kick... why the drip kick? You got me curious.


In some cases water can wick in between the couterflashing and flashing, in this case if the top of his flashing isn't sealed it would possibly leak. That isn't always the case though. 90% of the metal we bend drip edge, gravelstop, cap, various wall flashings all have a hem and a kick. Very few cases do we build them with out, and I can't recall a time we have built one with out a hem.



ddawg16 said:


> English....can we speak English?
> 
> One thing I'm wondering about....10-20 years from now...how would a roofer remove what is behind the flashing to replace it?


A hem is where the bottom 1/2 or so of the metal is bent 180 degrees. A kick is where the bottom 1/2 or so of the flashing bent out at around a 30 Deg angle, both help with water not wicking in behind the flashing.

When the roof gets replaced most likely what will happen is a couple of gorillas will come in and bend the living day lights out of the counter flashing. If your lucky they won't damage the stucco.

If you real lucky they will cut the flashing (modbit) around a foot or so away from the angle change and pull up and hopefully the 1X6 doesn't splinter all to pieces. 

In this case a bit of money spent on a 2 pc flashing now may be made up in the future when reroof time comes.




AndyWRS said:


> What the detail in your post shows is to the left, a drip edge kick is the middle and the hem is the right.
> 
> I could see heming the far left one, but the far right one is not going to sever any purpose. Either one of the three will still drip on the Modbit...unless i misunderstand what 1985gt is talking about. Afterall, we on the west coast only know about building bean sprout sandwiches


Yep talking about the same thing only we just call it a kick. :wink:

Nice Pic! :thumbsup:


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Ddawg, your last detail combined with the hem and kick of the far right flashing in Andy's picture are a good combination. The hem adds some stability and the hem and the kick keep the edge from digging into the roofing. The kick helps water to flow out onto the roof instead of straight down the wall and, sometimes, wicking back up. Also any counterflashing should extend down a minimum of 3" below the top of the wall flashing. 

As far as what they are saying about your wall detail of the membrane, it should have a cant strip and the walls should be min 8" tall and flashed separately onto the field. Asphalt should never bend at a 90 degree angle. Like you said, too late now. It does look like someone was pretty meticulous about installing the roofing which surprises me that they didn't do it correctly in the first place. 

I believe Fry Reglet has a two-piece CF design for stucco. Might check into that.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

OldNBroken said:


> Ddawg, your last detail combined with the hem and kick of the far right flashing in Andy's picture are a good combination. The hem adds some stability and the hem and the kick keep the edge from digging into the roofing. The kick helps water to flow out onto the roof instead of straight down the wall and, sometimes, wicking back up. Also any counterflashing should extend down a minimum of 3" below the top of the wall flashing.
> 
> As far as what they are saying about your wall detail of the membrane, it should have a cant strip and the walls should be min 8" tall and flashed separately onto the field. *Asphalt should never bend at a 90 degree angle. Like you said, too late now.* It does look like someone was pretty meticulous about installing the roofing which surprises me that they didn't do it correctly in the first place.
> 
> I believe Fry Reglet has a two-piece CF design for stucco. Might check into that.


Interesting comment.....prior to getting this section of roof done I got several quotes, did a lot of research and asked the questions here. It basically came down to hot mop (which is what my plans say) to torch down. I went with torch down....mainly because I've heard that replacing it is a whole lot easier in 20 years than mop down...

The material the roofer used is not just asphalt....it's looks like cloth, plastic and a bunch of other stuff....real flexible...good luck trying to tear it...it looks like it has the synthetic cloth in it....

But getting back on topic....I assume your suggesting that the issue is the way it turns up at the sides?


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

I understand having the drip edge kick, but around here you will not see it on any residential job. If you look at the first pic of the gorilla mangled zbar, my crew had no choice but to screw it down...which looked like major poo. 

A drip edge kick on that metal would look odd imo. The second pic shows the cover metal (SS metal that happen to match his house color)i applied over the mangled zbar. Would it not look odd with a drip kick? The cover metal was hemed at the bottom to give it rigidity, but no kick was needed...imo.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a236/AS45-70/Gorilladamagedzbar_zps20228673.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a236/AS45-70/coverpcoverthemangledzbar_zps3a583ac7.jpg


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Andy, you are correct. In your pictures it would look like ass. I am referring to flat roofs and the types of flashing/counterflashing/copings we deal with. Most commercial details call out a hem and kick for a finish.

Ddawg, it's not going to kill your roof. Like I said, it looks like your roofer is very meticulous and the work looks good. The reason for cant strips is that as the roof ages and dries out the stress of a 90 vs a 45 degree will cause the membrane to fail at that bend. I'm not one of those posters who tears things apart because they weren't done exactly by what a book says. I am a 30-year freshman attending the School of Hard Knocks. I was just trying to edumacate you on the reasoning for cant strips as well as not running field material continuously up the wall.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

To each their own. We have done some with out a kick mostly for one builder. Screwing it back down is about the only option you have. The cover up looks good though. 

This is one we did for the same builder I was referring to. Note: We did not do the oil canned Fascia wrap. I did how ever do all of the Cor-10 siding. If you notice the drip edge this one has a kick. This builder loves to do the stepped style fascia, most of the projects do not have kick, for looks. I prefer a kicked edge, more so on wall flashing and the likes.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Now I'm going to have to go up there and check that corner. I remember looking at it when it was done and don't recall that part being soft (nothing behind it). Considering all the saw dust that was around, I would be surprised if he didn't put a small strip in there.


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## AndyWRS (Feb 1, 2012)

You have about 20' of roof to wall to deal with based on the pics. The two pc would be ideal and if polling thats where my vote goes. I have no idea what they charge for the metals, but you dont need much, it would be a wise choice.

Your alternative is one like in the spec you posted but slightly improved. The hem is a nice feature so i would add that. Also, you could extend the lower section from 3.5" to say 5"+. This would give you a little more play in the flashing for when the time comes to re roof. You could price it both ways and see what your saving vs going with something from Fry Reglet.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

All drip metal that I specify has a drip with a return hem. (Thats what we call it when the metal is turned back on itself at 180 degrees. The kick adds a lot of columnar strength to the metal and prevents bowing. The return hem is to keep people from slicing their hands and feet open from a sharp edge, and if Kynar coated steel is used, it prevents rust from starting at an unhemmed drip. Galvanized, steel moves at about half the rate of aluminum.

Monumental buildings always used to use lead coated copper for its malleability. It was relatively easy to bend it up, re-flash and bend it back down. Not so with Stainless, ALuminum, or Steel.

I already posted my 2 cents about how to properly install base flashing.
You've got 4 pretty experienced people telling you that you should have a cant strip, and you should listen to them, but I guess the cow is out of the barn on that one. I would personally never allow a bituminous low slope roof system to be installed without cants. The value of the 4 inch high water dam cannot be over stated, and Bridging and cracking will occur at a 90 degree turn in any bituminous product in time.


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