# Odor from Crawl Space



## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Welcome to the forums! Did you do a "Search" in the white box at top of every page, here? I did a quick check: http://www.google.com/search?client...f.,cf.osb&fp=6791f0a8b4f506c2&biw=830&bih=466

This was interesting, what brand is your v.b.? http://crawlspaceinfo.com/blog1.php/crawl-space-odor

Gary


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Griffolyn
® 20 Mil Reinforced is a multiply laminate combining U.V. stabilized film with a high strength cord grid. It is specifically engineered to provide high strength and durability in a lightweight material.

Also my installer checked the crawl space today and thought the smell was similar to cat urine. It might be, I don't know. Could this be off or out gassing?​


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Rodent urine can smell quite similar to feline/canine urine.

DM


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## Big Stud (Jul 3, 2011)

I am not even gonna ask how you know that DM, :lol:


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Hmmmm.... we have cats and we have mice in the chicken coop and my daughter has pet rats. 
I have no idea how I'd know that!

DM


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, but I am sure that rodents are not the problem. We do not have a dead animal smell or any signs or rodents. The crawl space is sealed and conditioned but thanks for the suggestion. At this point, we are going to run the air condition this weekend to see if the smell goes dormant due to the cool temperature (i.e molecules slow down with cold and speed up in heat). If it does go dormant, then off gassing is most likely the culprit, if the smell remains, then the HVAC air ducts are getting replaced.

Please continue to post any other ideas or similar situations you may have. Thanks,

G Ollis


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

What did they use to treat the mold?

If not too extensive, you could paint the joists with Zinzer (sp) 123, or similar to block it completely.
Ever had a water leak in a bath/laundry, with water getting into the supply duct/register to mold on the debris there....

Gary


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Close to what I was going to suggest.
A simple wax ring under a toilet can cause the smell.


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## Maintenance 6 (Feb 26, 2008)

Is there any fiberglass ductwork in or around the mold remediation area that could have gotten wet from the mold clean up?

Did the company take an air sample right at a supply diffuser (vent) with the air handler running?

Did they sample for anything other than particles? Any gas detection sampling such as formaldehyde, VOCs or other?

Is the mold remediator also taking the air samples?

If yes, have you considered using an independent air monitoring firm?


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

Possible causes:

1. Caused by the work/materials done/added to your crawl space. Suddenly you go from no-smell to smell just as they finish the work.

2. You said that someone thought it was a urine-like smell. So, that's also a possibility.

If, when you explore around in the crawl, you find that the smell seems to be concentrated in one area, it's more likely to be of urine or dead animal origin. 

If it smells the same everywhere, then that work you had done seems more likely to be the cause.

I have been dealing with a urine smell in my crawl for a couple of years now. I have a radon mitigation system in my crawl, plus new HVAC furnace/coil/ductwork. The smell started about a year or two after all that work - and seems to have had some rodent activity as the source.

I tried all kinds of stuff to eliminate the odor. It's mainly a problem now in the warm, humid summer months.

You can read all the details (with many pictures) here:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/bad-smell-crawl-space-76931/

Check out the second page, near the bottom, for a summary.

What helps me the most is hanging three bags of Earth Care’s Odor Remover near the place where the return air duct meets the HVAC equipment. The odor seems to be getting into the HVAC system at that junction, even though a smoke test reveals no hint of a leak. The bags suck up almost all of the smell before it can get into the HVAC system.

If you can keep the HVAC system from sucking the smell into your ducts, with these bags, maybe you can breathe a little bit easier.

Here is a link to the odor eliminator bags:

http://www.cleartheair.com/english/bundles/10/dead_animal_odor_eliminator/2.html

Good luck.


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

John W.

Thanks. I have read your post before. The smell did not start until after the work was done and the smell is all around in the crawl space, not a certain spot. The smell began immediately after the mold problem was addressed.

Thanks again.

G Ollis


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Look around down there for the jug of urine the workers left.

DM


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> John W.
> 
> Thanks. I have read your post before. The smell did not start until after the work was done and the smell is all around in the crawl space, not a certain spot. The smell began immediately after the mold problem was addressed.
> 
> ...


G,

About replacing your ducting:

Have you opened the system, say at either end of your HVAC equipment, and sniffed inside, while the blower was off? If the smell in the crawl is coming from a compromised duct system, it would probably smell much worse inside the ducts than it does in the rest of the crawl.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

Okay I'm confused. On one hand you say that a company made your crawlspace conditioned and sealed. But you also describe vents. These are two mutually exclusive terms - the crawlspace is either sealed or vented.

Read this http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...-crawlspaces?topic=resources/cond-crawlspaces

Is there or was there any insulation in the floor joists over the crawlspace?


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

WillK said:


> Okay I'm confused. On one hand you say that a company made your crawlspace conditioned and sealed. But you also describe vents. These are two mutually exclusive terms - the crawlspace is either sealed or vented.
> 
> Read this http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...-crawlspaces?topic=resources/cond-crawlspaces
> 
> Is there or was there any insulation in the floor joists over the crawlspace?


Thanks for the reply. The crawl is conditioned and sealed. The vents I speak of are floor vents or the damper vents placed on the main trunk line of the HVAC. Hope that clears it up. There was insulation under the floor before the mold was treated. It is completely gone now. The only insulation in the crawl is called EcoBatt and it is stuffed above the outer walls above the Thermax. 

Of note to all: I had a third party come in today to check everything out. Unfortunately he was not able to pinpoint anything that I haven't considered. He did say that the HVAC returns inside the house smell strong like the crawl. BUT...my installer has removed some of the duct lines and checked them and didn't notice a bad smell. Going in circles!!!

Thanks to all.


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> Thanks for the reply. The crawl is conditioned and sealed. The vents I speak of are floor vents or the damper vents placed on the main trunk line of the HVAC. Hope that clears it up. There was insulation under the floor before the mold was treated. It is completely gone now. The only insulation in the crawl is called EcoBatt and it is stuffed above the outer walls above the Thermax.
> 
> Of note to all: I had a third party come in today to check everything out. Unfortunately he was not able to pinpoint anything that I haven't considered. He did say that the HVAC returns inside the house smell strong like the crawl. BUT...my installer has removed some of the duct lines and checked them and didn't notice a bad smell. Going in circles!!!
> 
> Thanks to all.


G,

How many HVAC returns (as defined by the third party) are there inside your house?


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

John,

There are two returns inside my house. My house is approximately 2200 sq ft. One thing I did not mention earlier is that I have a sunroom off the back of the house that was added on before we bought the house. The sunroom is heated and cooled by the same HVAC system. The sunroom does NOT smell. I also had the front porch, which is covered brick, checked. There is no smell under the front porch. I say all of this because it makes me think more and more that the smell was caused by something placed in the crawl during sealing, I just don't know what that is. 

G


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> John,
> 
> There are two returns inside my house. My house is approximately 2200 sq ft. One thing I did not mention earlier is that I have a sunroom off the back of the house that was added on before we bought the house. The sunroom is heated and cooled by the same HVAC system. The sunroom does NOT smell. I also had the front porch, which is covered brick, checked. There is no smell under the front porch. I say all of this because it makes me think more and more that the smell was caused by something placed in the crawl during sealing, I just don't know what that is.
> 
> G


G,

It seems that way to me too. 

They put something into, or did something to, your crawl space that is creating the bad smell. 

But its confusing that the smell is not reaching the sun room.

That makes it seem like the smell is coming up through the floor of the main house everywhere, not just up from the supply registers in the floor of each room.

Is the smell worse in some room than in others? Maybe bathrooms, kitchen. laundry room - places where plumbing comes up through the floor.

Is the bad smell stronger at the supply registers in the floor (in your main house rooms) than it is elsewhere in those rooms? Is it more noticeable at those supply registers when air is moving through the HVAC system?

If you turn the HVAC completely off, including no circulation mode, so that no air is moving through the HAVC system - then open the windows until the air smells good - then close the windows - then, still keeping the HVAC off - how long does it take for the smell to come back inside the house? Does it come back quicker if you turn the blower, heat or cool on right after closing the windows?


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

John_W said:


> G,
> 
> It seems that way to me too.
> 
> ...


John,

It appears to me that the smell does come from the floor vents and registers ONLY because that is where more air leaks are found in general. However (The heat has been off two days. The smell was semi-strong.) we turned on the air conditioning today to give it a try. The smell was worse after 3 hours (we had left to go shopping). We actually noticed it a bit more in the sunroom tonight. My wife says it seems worse in my son's room which is one one side of the house and our bathroom which is on the other side of the house. I personally think this is because we do not open windows or have a window in those rooms. My father-in-law is a contractor and called a friend that has been preaching sealed crawl space for 30 years. Just telling him the story, he seems to think the floor joist may still be damp from the chemicals used to kill the mold. Normal moisture testers show they are dry. Also, another friend said there house smelled somewhat like ours and it turned out to be the glue used to fasten the air ducts to the boots of the floor vents. Do you think the sealed crawl could cause the glue in out house to become smelly?

My installer is at his wits end as well. We are going to start removing stuff beginning tomorrow with the Ecobatt insulation. We shall see what happens.

I also want to add that the smell in the house is slightly less in strength than the smell in the crawlspace if you go under the house. Thanks for everything to everyone that has a suggestion.

G


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> John,
> 
> It appears to me that the smell does come from the floor vents and registers ONLY because that is where more air leaks are found in general. However (The heat has been off two days. The smell was semi-strong.) we turned on the air conditioning today to give it a try. The smell was worse after 3 hours (we had left to go shopping). We actually noticed it a bit more in the sunroom tonight. My wife says it seems worse in my son's room which is one one side of the house and our bathroom which is on the other side of the house. I personally think this is because we do not open windows or have a window in those rooms. My father-in-law is a contractor and called a friend that has been preaching sealed crawl space for 30 years. Just telling him the story, he seems to think the floor joist may still be damp from the chemicals used to kill the mold. Normal moisture testers show they are dry. Also, another friend said there house smelled somewhat like ours and it turned out to be the glue used to fasten the air ducts to the boots of the floor vents. Do you think the sealed crawl could cause the glue in out house to become smelly?
> 
> ...


G,

Your tests and observations say the smell is being introduced into the living space, including the sun room, by the HVAC system. More specifically, the smell is getting sucked into the return side of the system from within the crawl space and pushed out into the supply trunk and then out and up through the floor vents.

I suppose anything is possible. I doubt that sealing the crawl space would have any effect on adhesive sealants. But I only have my own house as an example.

In our ducting, the runs from the supply trunk to the boots in the floor are flex. They are strapped to, and also taped to, the narrow, round bottom end of the boots with aluminum tape designed for HVAC use. The wide, rectangular tops of the boots are nailed sideways into the floor - and the gaps between the top of the boots and the surrounding floor opening are sealed with an adhesive sealant (polyurethane?). The radon mitigation barrier in our crawl was sealed/glued to the block walls with a very potent smelling (very dangerous to breathe) bonding agent (butyl rubber), applied with a caulk gun. 

Once they cured, both adhesive sealants seem very durable and stable. They are still a little flexible but very tough. The smell from the dangerous stuff wore off in just a few days, if that long, and never came into the living area. I never smelled much of anything from the boot-to-floor adhesive. (I am very sensitive to chemical and other smells.)

If whatever they put into your crawl could affect good, cured adhesive sealant like what we have, especially over such a long time frame, it would seem to me to be a danger that needs to be removed.

Still, your house, and particularly your duct work at the boots, might have sealing 'technology' that I've never seen. If you can access some of that sealing material when you are in the crawl, maybe you can scrape some samples off and check it.

Again though, since the smell is everywhere down there, the source of the smell is probably everywhere too. To me, it seems likely that the source is widespread and fundamental to the work/materials used in the sealing process. My bet is that some chemical, material or combination of those that went into the overall process of sealing your crawl is producing that smell - maybe, in part, by interacting with the preexisting materials in the crawl - but all over/around the crawl, not just in isolated spots like the boots. 

You are lucky to have such a concerned installer. There are contractors that would just say "see you later" because otherwise, by spending more time on trying to resolve the problem, they will lose money on the project. 

Let us know how things develop.


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> Thanks in advance for anyone who can help! :thumbsup:
> 
> We also had a conditioned, sealed crawl space installed. The installer used a 20 mil vapor barrier and Thermax(TM) board insulation for the walls of the crawlspace. *There are vents and returns along the main trunk line as required by code*.
> 
> Gary


Gary,

Rereading your initial post, it finally sunk in that your HVAC ducting may have been modified to make your crawl space part of the conditioned space of your house. Sorry for being so slow on the uptake.

If the crawl and indoor air are freely mixing, by design, then the only way to get the indoor air to smell nice will be to find and fix the source of the smell down in the crawl.

In my case there is a bad smell in the crawl space that has, so far, resisted all attempts at eradication. But, I do have a "solution" of sorts as I am able to soak up that smell before it can be sucked into the HVAC system. 

With a conditioned crawl, my "solution" won't work for you. But, you can keep it in your back pocket, as a last resort (revert back to separate crawl and indoor air). 

Hope you are having luck finding and fixing the smell.


P.S. 

Could the smell just be what the walls, floor and joists down there have absorbed from the crawl since the house was built? I know that even the space inside interior walls can smell bad. It seems like making the crawl ready to be part of the conditioned space should include covering up such surfaces with something like a really good stain/odor blocking primer.


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

I hope I don't jinx myself but...

The installer removed the EcoBatt insulation in the crawl on Monday afternoon. He placed a fan in front of a crawl space door to remove particles in the air due to the insulation removal. I went to the house today (we have been staying with my in-laws for a week now) and it was much much better. I had my wife run the fan on the HVAC system for 3 hours until I could go by to check it. At 5:30 today, the house did not smell hardly at all. Now I realize it could just be the fresh air in the crawl space with fan, BUT I went into the crawl and smelled in front of the fan and the smell is maybe 25% of what it has been. We HOPE the insulation adsorbed the remediation smell, off gassing, chemical, etc. and that is what the smell was. We are going to let it air out for a few days.

The ultimate test will be when the crawl door is closed with no fan. I will keep you posted.

G


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Update...

The removal of the insulation "helped" with the overall smell BUT it is not the source of the odor. After three days without the insulation and a fan pulling air from the crawl, the smell remains in the crawl but not as strong. I attribute the not as strong simply to the fan being on 24 hours a day for the last three days. This weekend we are going to do an ozone shock to the crawl space and check it again on Monday.

FYI...the third party that checked my house two weekends ago is a friend of mine. He called me the other day and informed me that he was in a meeting with several colleagues and the general thought of those in attendance (who are remediation contractors and sealed crawl) is the vapor barrier is causing the smell due to a reaction with the soil under the house. They have found that the vapor barrier produces a smell in some crawls and not in others. Their opinion is that it has to do with the soil. If the ozone doesn't work, the v.b. is getting replaced.

I shall keep digging until I get to the bottom of this situation.

G


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> Update...
> 
> The removal of the insulation "helped" with the overall smell BUT it is not the source of the odor. After three days without the insulation and a fan pulling air from the crawl, the smell remains in the crawl but not as strong. I attribute the not as strong simply to the fan being on 24 hours a day for the last three days. This weekend we are going to do an ozone shock to the crawl space and check it again on Monday.
> 
> ...


Good luck.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

I have been in a few sealed crawls and have one in my house as well that was installed along with a geo thermal system. All the sealed crawls I've been in smell like cat pee and if there was a smell issue in the house the smell penetrated the living space by seeping through cracks in the flooring and walls where they sit on the sub floor. This especially in older homes that were not built up to the insulating standards now practiced in building. Also the smell will enter the house through incorrectly installed/sealed ductwork under the house.

Because of pressure every time the heat or air cuts on in the house it pulls minute amounts of under the house air up through small holes as mentioned above and this air then gets circulated throughout the house via air return system. 

A fresh air box added to the ac/heat system will most likely help to mix accumulated - inside the house smelly air - with fresh air and make it not quite as noticable and also provide fresh oxygen into an otherwise sealed enclosed air system.

On my house the cat pee smell has lessened considerably over time ( sealed crawl installed Oct 2010 ) and is now not noticed in the house but can still be smelled underneath inside the crawlspace...


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks for the responses.

Here is an update...

Officially, we still do not know what is causing the odor. Unofficially, and what I believe to this point, I have been told that the mold after being treated and killed goes through a dying cycle. Evidently the mold gives off a gas as it dies and can take an undocumented amount of time to quit gassing. I have spoken to consulting firms, non-profit companies, etc. and the universal answer is to air seal all the leaks from the crawl to the living area and vent the crawl. That is what I have done to this point. The smell is much better in house and I think if we can get a good patch of warm weather I will be able to open up all my windows and air out the inside. I have not had a chance to do this yet after the air sealing. At least the house is livable now.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

Sounds to me that it's probably the soil, and you need a better, or at least a different, vapor barrier on the floor. However, you could consider trying to fog the crawl with Concrobium. Buy a gallon and rent the fogger (both available at Home Depot), might cost a total of $50 and take a couple hours time max. The stuff is non-toxic to people/pets. I know your air tests say less than average mold currently, but any mold spores that may have been disturbed during remediation could have settled down and could smell bad now that you're sealed up. If it helps, you can assume the primer/sealer job may be worth doing (but you may not have to as Concrobium encapsulates the mold). If it doesn't help, at least you know there's no need to go through the added expense and labor of priming everything down there.


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## WillK (Aug 29, 2010)

Interesting thread... I'm in the process of working up to sealing my crawlspace. One of the things I'm planning to do is vent the crawlspace to outside with bathroom fans. My intent is to end up sealed, but I have visible mold on my dirt and any time the crawl access is open dust gets into the living space. I was going to put in drainage, but I have a sump pit and no longer have flooding so at this point I'm guessing that the vapor barrier might do me more good sooner than later.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

WillK said:


> Interesting thread... I'm in the process of working up to sealing my crawlspace. One of the things I'm planning to do is vent the crawlspace to outside with bathroom fans. My intent is to end up sealed, but I have visible mold on my dirt and any time the crawl access is open dust gets into the living space. I was going to put in drainage, but I have a sump pit and no longer have flooding so at this point I'm guessing that the vapor barrier might do me more good sooner than later.


I think you may find you really need a concrete floor to make a sealed crawl. Basically, a sealed crawl is like a really short basement. An earthen-bottom crawl is difficult to seal up...


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Pucks,

What kind of smell does your fogger spray have. I want to try it but do not want anything that will be too strong in case the smell leaks into the living area. Thanks for the suggestion.

G


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

G Ollis said:


> Pucks,
> 
> What kind of smell does your fogger spray have. I want to try it but do not want anything that will be too strong in case the smell leaks into the living area. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> G


There is almost no smell at all from the product. It's a compound similar to baking soda. If I had to describe it I say there's almost, maybe, a temporary sort of "chalky" odor. But it goes away as soon as it dries

For about $20 for a gallon, and I think it was $25 to rent the fogger, I don't see how you can lose. At the least, it will deodorize the stale air down there, and it will coat every surface to cover any leftover mold spores. It does not leave much of a "coating", not slimy or anything, but supposedly encapsulates mold, killing it and preventing it from shooting out spores. I say supposedly because that's their advertisement, but I know it helped in my crawl. If this helps, you can probably assume if you plug in a dehumidifier down there and keep it dry, you may have completely solved your puzzle. If it doesn't actually solve your problem, it's not related to mold or mildew, but it will still help deodorize any bad odor to some extent.

http://www.concrobium.com/ <---check it out. My Depot had it in the paint chemical area, but if your's doesn't have it you can order online. Just google it because I don't think they sell directly.


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

Another update: My installer fogged the crawl space with the Concrobium to no avail. The smell inside my house is a minimum thanks to the air sealing in the crawl. However, the earthy, cat urine, plastic smell (depends on who the smeller is) remains. I think I can officially rule out any issues with the HVAC. I think I can also conclude that the smell is not caused by any mold in the dying stage. It has been 3 months since the remediation, plus as Pucks stated, the Concrobium should have ridded the crawl of smell if the smell was from mold. I have to revert back to off gassing from some material installed in the crawl while sealing it. At this point, I have two options. 1. Give it more time to go away on its own (we are currently using two crawl vent fans and a dehumidifier) or 2. Rip out the materials starting with the vapor barrier and see if the smell leaves with the materials.

As always, I apprecieate any comments or suggestions.

G Ollis


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> Another update: My installer fogged the crawl space with the Concrobium to no avail. The smell inside my house is a minimum thanks to the air sealing in the crawl. However, the earthy, cat urine, plastic smell (depends on who the smeller is) remains. I think I can officially rule out any issues with the HVAC. I think I can also conclude that the smell is not caused by any mold in the dying stage. It has been 3 months since the remediation, plus as Pucks stated, the Concrobium should have ridded the crawl of smell if the smell was from mold. I have to revert back to off gassing from some material installed in the crawl while sealing it. At this point, I have two options. 1. Give it more time to go away on its own (we are currently using two crawl vent fans and a dehumidifier) or 2. Rip out the materials starting with the vapor barrier and see if the smell leaves with the materials.
> 
> As always, I apprecieate any comments or suggestions.
> 
> G Ollis


Gary,

Refresh me:

1. Do you still have crawl air deliberately mixing with indoor air via your HVAC system? I assume not, just checking.

2. What was done to the underside of your floor to stop the smell from getting up into the house? A single coat of a stain blocker won't do the job. If you apply multiple coats, till the surfaces are "as smooth as a baby's bottom" then you will block most smells. At least that's what I had to do to stop a mold smell that was actually on top of my old kitchen floor - before putting new laminate down.


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## Thunder Chicken (May 22, 2011)

Any chance of a sewer line back-up in your crawlspace? I chased a lot of sources of moisture and smell out of my crawlspace and this was one of the last culprits I found.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

G Ollis said:


> Another update: My installer fogged the crawl space with the Concrobium to no avail. The smell inside my house is a minimum thanks to the air sealing in the crawl. However, the earthy, cat urine, plastic smell (depends on who the smeller is) remains. I think I can officially rule out any issues with the HVAC. I think I can also conclude that the smell is not caused by any mold in the dying stage. It has been 3 months since the remediation, plus as Pucks stated, the Concrobium should have ridded the crawl of smell if the smell was from mold. I have to revert back to off gassing from some material installed in the crawl while sealing it. At this point, I have two options. 1. Give it more time to go away on its own (we are currently using two crawl vent fans and a dehumidifier) or 2. Rip out the materials starting with the vapor barrier and see if the smell leaves with the materials.
> 
> As always, I apprecieate any comments or suggestions.
> 
> G Ollis


G-

I was hoping to at least hear that if the Concrobium didn't work, it would at least settle down the odor enough for you to track it down to a specific area or specific item.

Can you refresh me as to what you have for a floor? Are you on soil or cement? Used a plastic liner for vapor barrier? What kind of adhesives have been used down there?

Reason I'm asking is, I think you said you're on soil floor with some type of vapor barrier sheeting glued to the walls. If that is the case, is there any way for you to gather samples of all of them? Maybe you could gather sample of the soil and put it in a piece of tupperware or bucket. Lay a piece of the liner on top, and some of the adhesive on the liner. If you glued the liner to wood, or liner to cement blocks, and it's possible to do so, replicate those junction(s) in your container also, because there could always be a situation where using ingredients A, B, and C, combining A to B could be fine, and B to C could be fine, but combine A to C and get a reaction. So anyway, seal up your samples for 2-3 days before opening it up, and see if you can reproduce the symptoms.

I think you've almost certainly ruled out mold/mildew, and even general dampness. I really don't think you're describing an animal or critter problem either, because I think you've stated you're all sealed up now. I can't imagine this being related at all to your HVAC system either. So I think you have to at least try to rule out the materials and/or the soil/earth/dirt you're sitting on now. If it's not the materials, the only other option I can think of is that maybe there is something in the soil- i.e., a problem with a soil/sewer line or an maybe old oil-heating tank or oil-heating lines leaching into the soil. 
Whether it is a soil-related or a material-related issue, this container test should at least reproduce the odor. Hopefully this will at least lead you to the source....


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

John_W said:


> Gary,
> 
> Refresh me:
> 
> ...


John,

1. I do not have a fresh air intake on my HVAC system.
2. To air seal the crawl, we used expanding foam and caulk to seal all opening around HVAC vents, boots, pvc pipes, cables lines, phone lines, etc. Anywhere there is a hole through the subfloor to the house has been sealed to prevent air leaks. We have not "painted" anything on the joists.


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

pucks101 said:


> G-
> 
> I was hoping to at least hear that if the Concrobium didn't work, it would at least settle down the odor enough for you to track it down to a specific area or specific item.
> 
> ...


 
Pucks,

The floor of the crawl is soil with a 20 mil vapor barrier. We have collected samples of each product prior and were not able to duplicate any smells. I took a sample of the soil under the vapor barrier and it smells simply like dirt, nothin unusual. The one thing I have not done sample wise is to place all the new materials in one container WITH the soil. I had each individually and combined, but not with the soil. I will give that a try.

The v.b. is on the ground and then runs up the walls. There is a foam board insulation on top of the v.b. along the walls. The board insulation is attached with what I call a 2" washer and screw/nail. Along the top of the board insulation is a line of caulk. The ecobatt insualtion previously installed between the floor joist along the outer walls has already been removed. I do not know at this moment if the v.b. was glued to the walls before the board insulation was attached or if the the board insulation holds the plastic in place.

One KEY thing to remember...The soil inside the crawl is the same as before the materials were added. There was not any smell inside the crawl BEFORE the crawlspace was sealed. What I am trying to say is if there was some kind of soil issue before, why did it not smell when I crawled through the crawl with the home inspector? And if, let's say, it were an odor from the soil, would the smell travel throught he v.b?


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

G Ollis said:


> John,
> 
> 1. I do not have a fresh air intake on my HVAC system.
> 2. To air seal the crawl, we used expanding foam and caulk to seal all opening around HVAC vents, boots, pvc pipes, cables lines, phone lines, etc. Anywhere there is a hole through the subfloor to the house has been sealed to prevent air leaks. We have not "painted" anything on the joists.


Gary,

At one point, it sounded like you were conditioning the crawl air (via a supply and a return from/to your HVAC system) as part of the sealed crawl space installation. That's different from a fresh air intake.

If the smell is coming from something that was added to your crawl, and its strong enough, it can probably penetrate your sub-floor/floor - through spaces between boards. Any plastic or felt sheeting in the floor won't stop it.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

G Ollis said:


> Pucks,
> One KEY thing to remember...The soil inside the crawl is the same as before the materials were added. There was not any smell inside the crawl BEFORE the crawlspace was sealed. What I am trying to say is if there was some kind of soil issue before, why did it not smell when I crawled through the crawl with the home inspector? And if, let's say, it were an odor from the soil, would the smell travel throught he v.b?


Understood- This is why I'm suggesting, maybe:
A) something used to seal up the crawl is causing the smell, possibly even more than one of those items, such as an adhesive, and another item are reacting together to cause an odor
-or-
B) the soil could still be causing the odor, but when the crawl was "breathing", you never noticed it, while now that it's sealed up the odor has nowhere to go so it is concentrating in the crawl and eventually seeping into the house

So, I was hoping if you combined the items and sealed them in an air-tight container for a few days you would be able to reproduce the odor. The problem I see here is that if it's something in the soil, such as some old oil-burning apparatus, or old soil pipe, it be several inches beneath the surface and/or only in on small area, so if you can't find an area of the crawl as the most concentrated area of odor, it could be really hard to track down a problem in the soil.
If it's a bad enough problem, maybe a better vapor barrier could help (John W. posted previously that the plastic will not stop an odor- I don't know if he's suggesting that the one you used specifically will not stop it or that there is no plastic sheeting that can stop an odor). A more aggressive approach (and much more expensive, so I'd get a few more opinions on it) would be considering a true cement floor, water-proofed and sealed with an odor-blocking primer. You've definitely got a tough issue to crack...


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## vln (Jun 19, 2011)

I would think if you poured a cement slab underneath your house, it would eliminate the smell. It seems your soil is off-gasing, possibly from a dead animal buried underneath or from prehistoric nature.


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

pucks101 said:


> If it's a bad enough problem, maybe a better vapor barrier could help (John W. posted previously that the plastic will not stop an odor- I don't know if he's suggesting that the one you used specifically will not stop it or that there is no plastic sheeting that can stop an odor).


Pucks,

What you suggest about how to think about the source of the smell in the crawl makes good sense to me. I hope Gary finds the source of the smell and is able to stop it, without too much more trouble/expense. That would be the best outcome.

My contribution (if it is one) concerns keeping that smell from getting up into the house proper. I'm thinking that a nasty odor, especially if it has a small molecular size, can probably slip through the felt or whatever is in the floor to prevent drafts, etc - at least enough to makes its offensive presence known.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

John_W said:


> Pucks,
> 
> What you suggest about how to think about the source of the smell in the crawl makes good sense to me. I hope Gary finds the source of the smell and is able to stop it, without too much more trouble/expense. That would be the best outcome.
> 
> My contribution (if it is one) concerns keeping that smell from getting up into the house proper. I'm thinking that a nasty odor, especially if it has a small molecular size, can probably slip through the felt or whatever is in the floor to prevent drafts, etc - at least enough to makes its offensive presence known.


I completely agree with you- I was just pointing out that it's possible that there is another type of plastic sheeting, vs. the one he is currently using, that may help. I quoted what you said because I just don't personally know enough about all the available plastics..


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

John_W said:


> Gary,
> 
> At one point, it sounded like you were conditioning the crawl air (via a supply and a return from/to your HVAC system) as part of the sealed crawl space installation. That's different from a fresh air intake.
> 
> If the smell is coming from something that was added to your crawl, and its strong enough, it can probably penetrate your sub-floor/floor - through spaces between boards. Any plastic or felt sheeting in the floor won't stop it.


John,

The sealed crawl does have conditioned air from the HVAC system normally. Because I am using crawl vents blowing out, I have temporarily closed my trunk line vents into the crawl. I see there is no reason to heat and cool the air that I am currently blowing out of the crawl.

To all,

I posed the soil questions simply as that, a question. I am not familiar enough with vapor barriers to know if a smell from under the barrier could be penetrating the v.b. and seeping through. My problem with the soil idea is I have cut the v.b and smelled under, even took a sample, the soil smells like dirt, nothing more nothing less. The smell does not appear to be coming from the soil. But, I plan on checking it again. And the smell inside my house is a minimum compared to when I started this thread. It is the smell in the crawl that I am attempting to get rid of because my ultimate goal is to have it gone.

Thanks again to everyone!


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## MurphyMan (Dec 25, 2011)

*Similar experience.*

Gary, I am having the same issue. It sounds like you have done an excellent job of sealing the crawlspace. I would appreciate another update from you.

I encapsulated my 1,300 sq. ft. crawl a few months ago, including eliminating the foundation wall vents and installing a supply and a return vent in the HVAC to condition that air. The cat pee smell started slowly, then got worse and worse.

BTW - my crawl humidity has hovered around 68%. 

I talked to Larry at Crawlspace Concepts, a supplier of liners, etc. A very knowledgeable guy. He said the cat piss smell is usually soil gas. I don't understand exactly how it happens after the liner is installed. He did suggest slitting the liner in a place or two and sticking my nose down there and taking a whiff to verify. (Gary, I know you did this and didn't smell anything other than dirt).

Larry suggested installing a soil gas mitigation system. The idea is to pull the gases under the liner, out of the house. You use 4" perforated drain pipe and a radon mitigation fan. The idea is, you slit the liner and slide some of these lengths of perforated pipe under the liner. He said you don't even have to glue them them, it's okay to just butt them together. The stuff is fairly cheap.

Here is a link to their blog article: http://crawlspacerepair.com/blog/crawl-space-soil-gas/

Create some sort of array, perhaps along the walls. Connect the radon fan and duct it all up and out of the house. Through the roof might be the best. Larry is in the process of sketching up the array for me and we will probably be doing this installation within the month. We may also be purchasing a crawlspace dehumidifier.

I'm attaching Larry's sketch of my crawlspace, and his recommendation for the layout of the perforated drain tubing. Not quite sure yet where I am going to connect the radon fan into it.

One other thing that may have been a factor. We noticed the evaporator coil in the heat pump air handler was not channeling the all condensation and it some would drain out onto the garage floor. The interior of the air handles is lined with fiberglass, so I thought perhaps mold was building up there. Lots of side issues here, but the bottom line is it's a lousy air handler design. (20+ y.o.).

One person on the HVAC section of this site suggested cleaning the evaporator coils to eliminate the dripping. Well, they looked just fine, but I bought a can of foaming coil cleaner from our local HVAC distributor. Sprayed it on, and didn't think it would work. Well, it's still dripping, but suddenly the smell is reduced. Maybe there was mold build-up on the coils, though I sure couldn't see anything. Go figure, but if I stick my head in the crawl, I still smell the cat pee.

So, the first thing on our list is to do the soil gas remediation. If that doesn't work, we will install a good crawlspace dehumidifier (may do that anyway).

Appreciate any updates.

Sam


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## lisabarron (Nov 11, 2012)

MurphyMan, We are having the exact problem in our home after encapsulation. We are considering mitigation, so just wondering if it worked for you. Thanks!


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## MurphyMan (Dec 25, 2011)

lisabarron said:


> MurphyMan, We are having the exact problem in our home after encapsulation. We are considering mitigation, so just wondering if it worked for you. Thanks!


Yes, it worked. Within 24 hours, after we turned the fan on, the smell in the house was gone and it was fairly easy to do.

I installed the system, pretty much as shown in the sketch in my previous post. I took a Tee off at the center of the array. From there I used solid 4" PVC and ducted it horizontally into the adjoining garage, then on up. I installed the radon fan in the garage attic, then vented it through the roof.

The other day I stuck my nose into the rain trap I built in, to see if the odor was still present in the exhaust air. I thought perhaps that a month of running the fan would have removed the smell, but yes, it still stunk. The system is an unqualified success.

I do wonder if pulling the air out from under the crawl space will affect our utility bills. I guess that verdict is out for the moment.

Murph


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## lisabarron (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks for your quick response!


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

MurphyMan said:


> Yes, it worked. Within 24 hours, after we turned the fan on, the smell in the house was gone and it was fairly easy to do.
> 
> I installed the system, pretty much as shown in the sketch in my previous post. I took a Tee off at the center of the array. From there I used solid 4" PVC and ducted it horizontally into the adjoining garage, then on up. I installed the radon fan in the garage attic, then vented it through the roof.
> 
> ...


pulling air from a sealed crawlspace does not seem feasible. where is the air being drawn from.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

I don't think they're trying to imply any kind of true "ventilation" of the crawl space, but more of an "evacuation" of off-gassing from the earth under the vapor barrier. Tthey are only using a small radon gas fan to help create a chimney effect through some PVC vent piping. 

Sounds fairly promising so far....


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## MurphyMan (Dec 25, 2011)

hand drive said:


> pulling air from a sealed crawlspace does not seem feasible. where is the air being drawn from?


That is a good question. I'm not 100% sure where the air is being drawn from. I think the fan is 175 cfm and if you put your hand over the vent, the air blast seems fairly strong.

The house is about 30 y.o. and is of fair construction. I sealed the crawl space using recommended methods; replaced the vents with cinderblocks, overlapped most seams a foot, used high quality materials, ran sealing tape along the foundation blocks then secured to the wall with pins, etc. 

Still, I know there is still some leakage between the liner and the foundation. For example, there are about 8 support pilings made of cinderblock. I know there is leakage there, due to the irregular shape of the end of the blocks and other places.

A further item, I installed a register in both the conditioned and return air ducts, in the crawlspace. This is per current state of the art for encapsulating crawlspaces. I am sure the system is pulling some of that air through the liner leaks and into the soil gas mediation array.

But, the end result was the fan is doing it's job. No more stinky. :thumbup:


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

*You may have solved my mystery*



MurphyMan said:


> That is a good question. I'm not 100% sure where the air is being drawn from. I think the fan is 175 cfm and if you put your hand over the vent, the air blast seems fairly strong.
> 
> The house is about 30 y.o. and is of fair construction. I sealed the crawl space using recommended methods; replaced the vents with cinderblocks, overlapped most seams a foot, used high quality materials, ran sealing tape along the foundation blocks then secured to the wall with pins, etc.
> 
> ...


MurphyMan,

You seem to have discovered the reason for the same, but localized smell in my crawl space.

I had/have the cat pee smell in my radon mitigated crawl space. It was/is in just one corner and it didn't start until a year or two after we installed the mitigation system. I always assumed that some mice or squirrels did the deed during a particularly cold winter. [I found nuts hidden in the insulation between the floor joists in that corner - near the crawl door.]

However, no amount of investigation showed signs of pee (I used ultra violet light to search). And, no amount of cleaning or odor removal helped - except for a few bags of odor absorbing material near the junction between the main return duct and the HVAC machinery. The odor in the crawl in that corner is gradually fading over the last two years, but it still is noticeable on very warm, humid summer days. 

Anyway, the under-radon-barrier ducting doesn't have a branch in that area. It could be that lack of suction in that corner has allowed the pee smell to seep up into the crawl!


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## MurphyMan (Dec 25, 2011)

John_W said:


> MurphyMan,
> 
> You seem to have discovered the reason for the same, but localized smell in my crawl space.
> 
> Anyway, the under-radon-barrier ducting doesn't have a branch in that area. It could be that lack of suction in that corner has allowed the pee smell to seep up into the crawl!


Can you run a branch in that area? Please report back if it works - or if it doesn't.

Murph


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## John_W (Nov 3, 2009)

MurphyMan said:


> Can you run a branch in that area? Please report back if it works - or if it doesn't.
> 
> Murph


Yes, that should be possible. 

It will be a while though before I can get around to it.


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## G Ollis (Apr 12, 2012)

*Hello to everyone again*

I am sorry I have not updated anyone in quite some time. Basically, a year has passed and there is no smell in my house. However, the smell in the crawlspace remains. I have two crawlspace vent fans blowing out continuously. My installer wants to try something similiar to the diagrams mentioned before (I think it was MurphyMan). I will update as soon as possibe.


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## RustyBones (Sep 4, 2013)

"Still, I know there is still some leakage between the liner and the foundation. For example, there are about 8 support pilings made of cinderblock. I know there is leakage there, due to the irregular shape of the end of the blocks and other places."

There should not be any air leakage anywhere regardless of the "irregular shape" of anything. Special air sealing tape exists for that purpose. It will stretch/conform and truly seal almost any surface. As far as to exactly what the smell is that gets tricky but check this list it might help you:http://mycrawlspace.net/mycrawlspacestinks.aspx


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## TerriK (Oct 24, 2013)

*It's the liner*

Sad to say but we have had the same experience. We used the 10 mil diamond back liner from crawlspace repair. It took me two years to figure out it is the liner. On their site they refer to it as the mysterious stinky crawlspace odor. They also say it is a reaction of the plastic with gases in the soil. I can debunk that theory. I recently ordered some scrap as we decided to add another sump pump in our crawl. I had cut the piece I needed on the drive and left the scrap out there for a few days. I felt certain when I collected the scrap a few days later that a cat had sprayed on it. I threw it away which bummed me as it was so expensive. A water guy and I were chasing down an issue and ended up in our crawl near the newly patched spot and we both looked at each other and said cat pee. Again, thought a stray cat got in the crawl as I had left it open once overnight. Still did not dawn on me. Finally had a thought and called crawlspace repair and they told me that yes they have had this issue and directed me to articles on their site and how to treat it as radon mitigation to evacuate the odors from below the plastic. I considered this for a week as we may have a radon issue and need to retest. Finally I decided that I had absolutely no interest in trying to make their product work for me. There product had literally brought some of the most longterm hardship I had ever experienced and that says alot. I felt that their article about some homeowners removing the diamondback liner and putting 6 mil down and that the odor was worse than ever was probably misleading. They said the people went back to the diamondback with the same previous odor level again and did the radon mitigation trick. I have spent the past week removing all the diamondback I installed and boy did it stink. But after I removed it, smelled like mold, personally better than cat pee, although I would say that our older original diamondback plastic smell graduated to dead wet worms. Anyhoo, I laid regular 10 mil plastic down and it smells like plastic, so much better. Frankly i was afraid to order anyones higher grade plastic as i was fearful of the same odor event occuring. I'm sure this will gradually outgas. Last night I was covering my last room and had to remove the sump pump lid and check valve. I had cut a circle around it when removing the diamondback and I had a doughnut cut piece of diamondback I had to remove, man, that odor was horrendous. Amazing what one little scrap can do. I had not smelled that in over a week and I so did not want a reminder. Trash day was a miracle, I removed everything the night before.

In the two years of trying to figure out this odor, I had tried sooooooo many things. Sealed every single bit of hvac boots, replaced the trunk line, resealed the runs with mastic and double zip tied, cleaned the coils, cleaned every surface of the plastic multiple times, caulked any seam down there, used zinnser on any exsposed wood, pitched a year old dehumidifier, bought clo2 packs to hang in the crawl, used concrobium vapor, bought a crawlspace fan for one of the vents, ran a ton of carbon cleaners, an ozone generator, ripped up every floor board upstairs and caulked, sealed all vents upstairs as well as the fireplace and STILL that odor would make its way into our home. I am sure I have not remembered everything we have done. I have spent a fortune as well as a freakish amount of time trying to fix this and it ended up being the liner. Funny, their site says American made, no vocs and no outgassing. They said all the right things and it was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

*Reply to Terrik*

Hello everyone, my name is Matt Leech and I am the president over at crawl space repair. I was alerted to Terrik's post by one of the chat room users, so I thought I would stop by and join in. 

I would like to start with a short reply. Because we have chat names I don't know who Terrik is or if he/she even bought anything from us. First, we have not received any complaints of a stinky crawl space from a customer that purchased our DiamondBack product and second we have never made a 10 mil in any of our product lines. In Terrik's post it states *"They also say it is a reaction of the plastic with gases in the soil"*. This statement is not true. Our article states the odor comes from the off gassing of organic material breaking down in the soil. That off gassing does not react with our plastic to make an order, that is the odor. To support my claim I will point you to an article written by Christopher M. Gray, Russell K. Monson, and Noah Fierer entitled "Emissions of volatile organic compounds during
the decomposition of plant litter" and it can be found here-http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/EEBprojects/FiererLab/Gray_2010_VOCs.pdf. 

It is true that encapsulating a crawl space gets blamed for this odor, mostly because it is not as pronounce prior to sealing the crawl space. We know that soil gas mitigation, done properly, eliminates this problem 100% of the time. Please note that it must be done properly or there will be little improvement. 

I find it curious that Terrik tried all those things that are listed in the post but did not try the mitigation system that is recommended in our article. 

Even though I believe this is a competitor trying to bash our products, I would like to offer Terrik a refund. I certainly do not want unhappy customers. Terrik, if you would please supply your order number or a copy of your receipt I will be sure to issue you a refund of the DiamondBack that you were not happy with. 

If anyone would like to ask us a question on the crawl space odor and how to get rid of it please contact us through our site crawl space repair.


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## TerriK (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi Matt,

#CSC-53380 for $693.93, I was wrong, 8 mil and 12 mil remnants, tapes, caulk, fasteners, and brush etc.....

#CSC-56768 for $344.58, sump set, 12mil diamond back scrap and tape

I hope you would refund the install components like tapes, fasteners and caulk as well. They were ordered to install your product per recommendation. 

Matt, I have a suggestion, cut a 3x3 piece of the 12 mil plastic and take it home. Toss it in the backyard for 3 days and bring it in to warm up and see if you detect the odor. I think the odor itself is in the silver or black backing and is moisture activated. I read your voc article, no where did it say the soil gas smelled like cat pee. Regardless, our crawlspace is probably two to three feet below the plow zone and as I have dug down there to install two sump pumps I only saw gray clay, no vegetative decay, no roots, nothing, no cat urine smell, but definitely moldy. I feel confident as I'm an archaeologist. For that matter, we have been in our home 12 years. We did pull up the old 6 mil plastic ( 20 years old) and laid new 10 mil regular plastic down on the floor only probably five years ago, it did not produce this odor.

The recent 12 mil scrap smelled like urine just from sitting on the drive. I feel we both FIRMLY believe what we are sharing. I truly believe we are both nice people. For that matter every single person I have ever spoken to there has been lovely. I did call three weeks ago and asked about the odor,in fact, i think you were busy at the time and you told someone how to install the pvc and he passed it on to me. I had intended to send you a letter once my refurbish was complete. I actually ordered fasteners from you two weeks ago and it HURT, I just could not find them anywhere else. I just felt so bad for those people as I have lived it as well and I posted a response.

I dont find it curious. In regards to to installing your radon mitigation technique, I read the review by Sam Hoskins on your site for the sump pump kit. He said it cost him $350 for the radon fan and pvc plus another $200 to pay someone to cut holes thru the roof and vent it. Frankly, as I stated above, I considered it for a week, and it is the principle of the matter. I do not want to spend another $550 to make your product work. I'm sure I have spent over $700 already plus my labor trying to fix it. I feel so foolish that I did not recognize the source sooner. 

Of note Matt, these people having this issue have resorted to opening their crawlspace and installing fans to exhume the constant odor. I'm not so sure the odor is created by sealing the crawl rather it is still there while opened and with fans running just helps to keep it from coming into the living area. I also believe the stack effect bites. I've had two job offers, it looked so damn good. I can't believe I am doing this again. 

By my order number you should be able to track me down. Call if you wish. I will be nice.


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

So I looked up your order and I see you purchased one roll of 12 Mil DiamondBack, which I will refund as I stated. 

Although you continue to state that the plastic was the cause of the odor, that does not make it fact, is based on one case judged and juried by you and will not convince me because you installed a sump basin and did not see any organic material that you would blame for the odor. Believe it or not, we would have been out of business years ago if we were making and selling stinky plastic, besides my 12,000 sq foot warehouse would smell like cat pee and customers would smell it before they installed it. We make 1000 rolls at a time, if it is the plastic then that means there are more than 500 customers with the same 12 Mil DiamondBack liner that was installed in your crawl space that has an odor problem as well, yet this is the only complaint. There would be write up after write up about how stinky our products are, *but there is not*. The most you will find is uneducated consumers that blame the last thing they bought as the problem rather than the installation quality and method and that goes for any liner brand. In fact, in the industry, EVERY crawl space liner has been involved in a stinky crawl space and be sure that not all liners are purchased from us. Of the tens of thousands of rolls of liner that we have made and sold there has been less than a dozen cases of a stinky crawl space and the customer was able to eliminate the odor 100%, 100% of the time, just look at the customer reviews. That's about .02%, not 2% but .02%, of our customers homes that have a *soil gas problem*. All that being said, you have found who to blame.

I know what I say is just my word, but *if* I were a liar and cheat I would not care what you think or say and I certainly would not give you a REFUND based on *your* word. 

Matt


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## TerriK (Oct 24, 2013)

Well Matt, if you wanted to be honest we spent approximately $600 on the diamond back liner, not the cost of 1 roll of 12 mil liner. You did not specify which size, could be from $200 - $320. 

I did misquote the second invoice, I did not have the remnant added on there.

I would be upset if someone maligned my product as well, this is how you make a living. I would agree that I did see that another liner company has had some odor issues as well. Again, I believe it is the black or gray side of the liner that emits the odor and I did not smell it until it was unrolled and had a humidity reaction from sitting on our drive for a few days. I would assume your warehouse is climate controlled and the rolls are rolled white facing outside. It's a simple thing to try the test I suggested. I would even be willing to send you half of my sump pump liner cookie for reference. Truly I did not jump to the conclusion that it was your liner, it was by happenstance since we needed to patch a spot and bought new liner. When I removed everything I let it air down there a week. I could smell some of the residual cat odor in the 2 inch blue board I installed and am hopeful I aired it out long enough. It was mostly lingering at the entrance and crawlspace vent where we had fans drawing the odor out for the past year. I can say we certainly don't have that odor any longer so that tells me all I need to know right there. Terri


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

Polyethylene is milky in it's uncolored state. White is as much a colorant as black and gray. So, if the black or gray color were the cause then the white would give off the same smell.

Our products are rolled back side out/white side in. Again, if the gray or black was the cause then my warehouse would smell like cat pee as well as the UPS truck and all customers garages. To confirm, watch this youtube video that shows how our products are rolled- http://youtu.be/tVS81yIji50

My warehouse is not climate controlled. Anyone is welcome to stop by for a sniff.

Teri, you are not the first person to blame my products for a soil gas problem, so that is not what erks me. What leaves me shaking my head is that we helped you and then we helped you again. From selling you small pieces so you did not have to buy a full roll (from us or anyone) to the time spent talking with you guys about your problem and giving you the PROVEN solution. You refused to employ that solution and instead try more than 15 of your own ideas, while spending more money than the actual solution would have cost you because it was the "principle of the matter". Then, when everything you thought of didn't work, you go to a DIY chat room and (as you say) "malign" my products and my company. Your attempt to discredit our knowledge of the industry and plastic in general, because we have something to sell, is spiteful. So, who knows more about prehistoric people, a plastic manufacture or a archaeologist? 

So ya, that's what erks me.


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## TerriK (Oct 24, 2013)

We have 1500 sq feet, 511 was for the walls in remnants, 1000 sq foot roll for floors. We have two identical sides to our crawl and both floors had a single cut piece from the roll. Jessica worked with me and did a great job of piecing it together for us so we would not have 500 sq ft left over. It seems very obvious to me that you do not know what we bought. Our remnants were 13x16, 13x8.5, 13 x7, 13 x5.5, 12x6.5 and 11x7.5 which equals 511.50 sq feet in 12 mil and. 1 roll of 8 mil. I'd say we were doing you a favor as well using remnants. The remnants were not cheaper, same cost per sq foot.

I just found out about your remediation for evacuating the odor three weeks ago. After I had spent a fair amount of money trying to cure the problem, not knowing the source of the odor. Don't make it sound like you offered me a solution long ago and I vehemently rejected it on principle. We have had this issue for almost two years. 

Matt, I don't know the magical answer here, i just know what we experienced, how we experienced it and other posts I have been able to find of other people who have had this issue as well using reinforced liners, not regular plastic liner. I'm not spiteful. You don't even know me. I am 47 years old, 5' 4 1/2" , 127 pound woman with Multiple Sclerosis who spent two months in the crawl doing prep work then installed your product. All of this two months after having a six inch incision in my abdomen. The only thing I could not do was use the hammer drill, my husband who works 70 hours a week did so. I don't feel my parts so well any more but thankfully they still work and muscle fatigue is somewhat of an issue. I'm not allowed to use the chain saw anymore

I was born with joy. I still have joy and I am blessed beyond reason. But I can tell you that my joy has been tapped severely. Who should have to live with their home smelling of cat urine. As I have installed 10 mil plastic liner and no longer have the cat urine odor, how could I have not made the right choice? If it were soil gas, wouldn't ANY liner produce the same affect? It cost me $300. 

I'll let the readers know if you actually hold to your word and refund us and if it was the true amount we spent on the diamond back liner. I didn't quite know how to word that in a nicer manner, sorry. Terri

Ps, I am a historic archaeologist


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

Terri,

I have calculated what DiamondBack liner you actually purchased from my company and it comes to $495. BTW, the full roll was 12 Mil DiamondBack not 8 Mil, and the remnants were also all 12 Mil, no 8 Mil. I feel you need this correct information to understand the refund, please review your receipts. I do find it a bit funny though:laughing: that you stated *"It seems very obvious to me that you do not know what we bought".* However, I am a bit lost at how you come to $600. But, I am sure no matter what amount I refund, you will not be happy with it. Please remember that I was the one that OFFERED the refund and no one is making me do it. So find joy in that. 

Please accept the amount of $495 gracefully

or

Reject it with another complaint and we will go our separate ways...

I will wait your reply.


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## TerriK (Oct 24, 2013)

I will accept it gracefully and with some joy. Terri.


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

Please standby...


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## CSrepair (Oct 25, 2013)

Terri,

Because you bought the vapor barrier last year the refund will be issued by check and is scheduled to process early next week. It will be sent to the address on file.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Glad that a happy ending was found.

However, this thread violates one of our policies.


*This is a "how to" site, not a "why I hate this product/company" site*



Thread closed.

beenthere
DIYCHATROOM Site Moderator


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

CSrepair. Its strange that your IP is from Vietnam, and not the USA.


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