# Concrete 4x4 post footings .. cheap junk?



## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

If you are building a 'floating deck' they can.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

So would a 12 x 8 deck right out back qualify for a floating deck?


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Or do I need to dig holes and pour concrete?


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Where I am it would. Just do not attach it in any way to the house including the railings. Also realize it may shift a little as frost heaves. There are adjustable brackets you can use to attach the post to the beam. These can be adjusted as the deck shifts.
Here is one sample


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If you do not mind a deck that's never going to stay level and flat, that's the way to go.
How's that layout going to work out blocking the crawl space access like that?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

stevergee said:


> So would a 12 x 8 deck right out back qualify for a floating deck?


Ayuh,.... It works a 'ell of alot better if ya Level the blocks before ya start,.....

This looks like ya pulled the sod, 'n slapped down blocks, wherever they fell,.....


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

It would help to know where you are located?I still would never build a deck like that even in a warm area.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Located in PA north of Pittsburgh


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

The slabs and concrete footings are actually fairly level and spaced out evenly and located strategically to support the deck


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

If I was in PA I would not even consider a floating deck.Especially on those piers.Your deck will be chit in 2 years if not sooner.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

I have A feeling I should just start from scratch and dig the proper holes for the footers and pull the permit first


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Good thought and good luck with your project


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

I will have to discuss assemble all this
Haha - good grief. I thought it was going in so quick


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

You need to do a few other things while your at it.How is that attached to your house?No ledger board?No hangers?No flashing?Even the way you have it with the piers ?Why are they on the second joist?That corner will sag and be spongy every time you step that way.
Edit: Just enlarged the picture and saw that it is floating so my first few comments don't have anything to add but I can say for a fact I would be scared to even stand on this deck the way you have it designed.
Put some posts in the ground below the frost line or some sonotubes with Simpson brackets and secure it properly.You don't have enough support in the middle on the house side anyhow.Your trying to build a floating deck as if it is attached to the house and it is not.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

It I'd not attached to the house but it is very solid


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Has 2 12 x 8 12 foot boards acting as beams for the joists


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

OK.Then why did you post and what is your question if your pleased with it?You own it ,I don't! Let us know how it is after next winter?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

No railings, no rim joist, notched 4 X 4's, no blocking between the joist, no through bolts in the piers.
Would never pass inspection here.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

I just talked to the inspector
He said if the deck floor is over 30 inches above the grade then I would have to submit plans, pay for building permit, and then have inspections. If I keep it under 30 inches no inspections - just a zoning permit


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Plus no railings required either under 30 inches


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

I would attach some sort of 'rim joist' to both ends of those joists. This will help them to stop from rolling sideways. On the house end you could toes screw from the joists into the rim joist.
Here the no railings needed rule is at 24". To me I like to have railings on any deck that is not ground level. A fall from even 30" is going to hurt.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Code is bare minimum.
Fall over backwards one time from that height and someone's going to get hurt.
Your posting pictures, asking how to build something.
People that do this for a living are replying and most know what works and what will not but you keep moving on doing it wrong and coming up with excuses to get away with it.
What's up?


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

This first 12 x 8 section of the deck will be the highest part as it will be the entrance. The rest of the deck will sprawl out around it - but at step down - so if you fall off the 8x12 entrance area you will fall 8-10 inches onto the lower level that level may even another step down to the yard level that would also function as long bench around the perimeter of the deck flowing out into the yard. Have not figured out the final design of it yet.

But I plan on using some pressure treated 2x4 sections to sister to the posts that will provide 6 more points of solid vertical support to those 2 2 x12 beams that are mounted to the posts.

When the additional sections of the deck are added - that will add even more stability to the initial 12 x8 area


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

So the old concrete steps and porch to the left will be removed to make way for the new decking coming its way


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

The door will also be removed after we the new patio entrance installed where the old big window is coming out on to the deck


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

On top of the structural issues mentioned I don't know why you would want to put the time and money into something that looks like hell when it does not have to?


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

This deck would last half winter maybe after the last on we had in Connecticut. Any deck that is not on ground surface aka a patio, requires a permit here. Are you using screws or nails to hold the joists onto the support columns? Remind me to decline any invitations for a deck party. My deck is 18 inches off the ground and I sure have railings. Would not want one of my guests after an ale or to to take a step backward during a conversation. It would like make a serious negative cash flow. Under structure is all bolted together. Its on footings which extend to below the frost line. It's over 20 years old and I never shovel it. It has had 5 or more feet of snow on it all winter.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Should be able to complete the whole deck for less than 1500, what you see now is about 300.

By the time I add the extra verticle post supports a and then attach the lower portions this thing will be super strong and will look really sweet after it is all built and finished.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Also each of the five outer 4x4 post will have additional support beams sistered to them as they attach and then spread on out to the next level down, and each of those will add vertical support to the existing area because they will be butted in between the original support beams and each concrete footing block


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Take a look at this stevergee. http://www.awc.org/publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-12.pdf

This is the best online info that I'm aware of showing you how you should be building it.


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## johnd393 (May 12, 2007)

mae-ling said:


> I would attach some sort of 'rim joist' to both ends of those joists. This will help them to stop from rolling sideways. .


What he said.
Or some blocking.


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## cwelte (Feb 15, 2008)

Upon reading this thread, it sounds like you were trying to get advice/acceptance for building your deck a certain way. There's a resounding reply that you're not building it correctly, but you don't want to listen. Now whether or not you're just trying to build a deck on the "cheap" or to avoid dealing with "the man" or just think it'll be more hassle that it's worth... the codes are in place not to be d*cks and suck money from you for permits, etc., no, they're in place to keep people safe. 

With a deck like this, I'd be sure to up my homeowner's insurance policy. It's not a case of "if" someone gets hurt, it's "when". Having lived in the NE for many years, there's no way those joints will stay tight after the ground's seasonal freeze-thaw cycle. Never mind a level deck, your fasteners won't stay tight. Guaranteed.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you'll be MUCH happier in the long run if you stop and rethink your plans.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

cwelte said:


> Upon reading this thread, it sounds like you were trying to get advice/acceptance for building your deck a certain way. There's a resounding reply that you're not building it correctly, but you don't want to listen. Now whether or not you're just trying to build a deck on the "cheap" or to avoid dealing with "the man" or just think it'll be more hassle that it's worth... the codes are in place not to be d*cks and suck money from you for permits, etc., no, they're in place to keep people safe.
> 
> With a deck like this, I'd be sure to up my homeowner's insurance policy. It's not a case of "if" someone gets hurt, it's "when". Having lived in the NE for many years, there's no way those joints will stay tight after the ground's seasonal freeze-thaw cycle. Never mind a level deck, your fasteners won't stay tight. Guaranteed.
> 
> I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you'll be MUCH happier in the long run if you stop and rethink your plans.


 Good post and what I've said on these DIY boards many times.People ask questions and want and expert opinion but when they don't like the answer just ignore it.Or sometimes argue the point.


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## Jack Olsen (Jan 26, 2010)

The thing that makes me nervous about those post-support blocks is that they look like they would hold water around the base of the pillar. Am I missing something?

I built a floating deck -- partly because I knew I wouldn't have freeze-thaw cycles to deal with. Still, we have a lot of seismic activity. And I'm within a few blocks of the (very active) La Brea tar pits and also on a piece of land which has active oil drilling taking place underneath it. So I was very interested in how level it would stay over time. It's only been 2 years, but the thing is still level like a billiard table.

This was the test fitting for the blocks. For code, my deck had to be no more than 12" above the grade, so pillars weren't really an option.










Later, I pulled everything up for the water drain/diversion end of things.










I also welded together a pergola/shade cover.










Here it is as of last week -- 2 years after a guy who had never built a deck before finished one.










Budget was around 5-6K. Half of that was the hardwood decking.


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## desertjim (Jun 7, 2011)

mako1 said:


> You don't have enough support in the middle on the house side anyhow.


Just curious, but did you miss the 2x12(?) back there......the same as he had in the front? 

Regards, Jim


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I don't see a 2X12 so I guess I'm missing something here.I think the end result is beautiful but sure not the way I would have done it.I will probably be fine in Cali.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

This first 12 x 8 section is just the beginning of this floating deck. It will literally be surrounded on 3 sides with 10 to 12 foot long step down lower sections of the deck that will literally be bolted into this section. The lateral and vertical stability of the entire structure will be many orders of magnitude greater than it needs to be.I

I appreciate the the criticism and knowledgeable analysis of this piece of work. I did talk to the inspector on the phone about this deck and he told me as long as the edge of the deck is 30 inches or less from the grade - no need for a permit that requires inspections. 

As you can see from the pic above I am in the process of supporting the 2x12 beams with solid 2x4 sections that are directly mounted to the 4x4 posts.

The whole deck can float and move with freeze and thaw cycles - and I will be sure to apply a good sealing and water run off so no water will get trapped into the concrete footings.

I will keep the forum posted on the progress and if the deck fails or becomes a disaster I will report that as well.

Thanks for all the feed back!


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

It is a beautiful deck and I have to admit that I did not notice before my first post that you are in California.Will probably be fine there but would not fly here in IL.I have to start checking locations better after giving people hell for not listing there locations sometimes.


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## kphammond9 (Apr 21, 2015)

mako1 said:


> It is a beautiful deck and I have to admit that I did not notice before my first post that you are in California.Will probably be fine there but would not fly here in IL.I have to start checking locations better after giving people hell for not listing there locations sometimes.


OP is in PA, not Cali. The California deck is a different guy.


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## m3rdpwr (Apr 16, 2012)

From what I see, the 2x12 joists are only held to the 4x4 posts with nails or screws. You need the shear strength of multiple lag bolts.



stevergee said:


> Should be able to complete the whole deck for less than 1500, what you see now is about 300.
> 
> By the time I add the extra verticle post supports a and then attach the lower portions this thing will be super strong and will look really sweet after it is all built and finished.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

kphammond9 said:


> OP is in PA, not Cali. The California deck is a different guy.


Had to go back and check it again.He did make a separate post staing his location .Why can't people simply put their location in their profiles?
What would work in Cali won't work in PA.
If it was in his profile there would be no reason for us old guys to get confused and have to spend this amount of time answer a simple question that we have knowledge of.


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## Jack Olsen (Jan 26, 2010)

Frost heave doesn't mean the ground rises up and then returns to where it was. Here's a link that might be helpful for the original poster.

http://www.structuretech1.com/2013/06/frost-heave-and-deck-footings/


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Good post Jack ... This precisely why you do not want to attach a floating deck to a fixed structure. My deck will be designed so the whole thing floats together and the approximate and relative vertical position to the house needs to allow for a frost heave. Like floating a boat near a dock


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## Jack Olsen (Jan 26, 2010)

Except you're assuming the movement will be the same for all of the pillars, which is not the case. 

And you're at a point where you could pretty easily still do the job right by moving the structure you've built and renting an auger to sink in some sonotubes and pour a base below the frost line.


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## bhawleyusa (Sep 19, 2011)

Jack Olsen said:


> And you're at a point where you could pretty easily still do the job right by moving the structure you've built and renting an auger to sink in some sonotubes and pour a base below the frost line.


Do what he says. Don't go floating in your location.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

I kind of like the Idea of having the deck as floating. My concrete back porch is a floating 6 by 8 block structure - has hardly budged an inch in 55 years


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## rustyjames (Jul 20, 2008)

I don't see any problem with a floating deck, especially a small one. But, if I was going to do it, I'd probably dig down a foot or two and fill with clean, crushed stone and then set the footing blocks.


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## hyunelan2 (Aug 14, 2007)

I didn't read all the comments, so I'm sorry if this has been said. Here, we require even on-grade/floating decks to be anchored to the ground. Weight alone doesn't work. Otherwise you get a violent thunderstorm flipping that up in the air and doing damage or causing injury.


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## jmusse (Apr 28, 2015)

Looks good


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

I finally picked up the permit for my deck today. I was concerned when I read it that it said all work progress had to be approved and that for mine there was needed a layout inspection and then a final.
So I called the inspector right away and he said it was OK that I had already started the construction and they only want to make sure the deck will be in the area that I said it was going to be.


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

He even said that it was OK to have the entrance section of the deck higher than 30 inches - only the sections adjacent to the grade had to be 30 inches or less


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## stevergee (Aug 25, 2014)

Almost half done with backyard floating deck system.


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