# Considering Replacing Dishwasher



## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

Since we moved into this house many years ago, the dishwasher never worked. Its the stock dishwasher that the contract built with the home in 1973. 



> Dishwasher installations in new construction are required to have a dedicated 20-amp circuit with 12-ga. wire. If the cable is undersize or the equipment ground is missing, you may want to hire an electrician to upgrade the circuit.


I'm positive my old house doesn't have 12-ga. wire or the dedicated 20-amp circuit. I think it's like the rest of the kitchen: 15-amp circuits with 14-ga. wire. Does this mean I'm grandfathered and can continue with the replacement with the current wiring or I need to rewire? Because if it's the latter, this would really be unfortunate...

Also, given how old this dishwasher is, and also since we've never used it/it doesn't work, I thought it would be a good idea to remove it from the counter cavity just to see what I'm working with. The problem is that since we got a new electrical panel and the dishwasher never worked, I never had an opportunity to label the panel to identify the dishwasher's receptacle. Also, I tried looking on either side of the dishwasher, under the cabinets, and I don't see any outlets. Could it be that the dishwasher's outlet is right behind it?

Even if I don't buy a dishwasher right away, I would atleast like to remove this old one for the first time in 40 years to see what I'm working with.

Should I start with making sure there's a shutoff valve for the hot water line that goes to the dishwasher?


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## ChantryOntario (Apr 22, 2013)

The shutoff is usually right where the dishwasher feed comes off of the hot tap feed in the sink, which is the normal source. If not there, then you may have to shut off the hot water to the sink, which is normally right under the sink somewhere. 

The outlet could be anywhere, right behind the dishwasher makes sense for that age of house, although I don't know if it's correct to code.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

I won't attempt to answer your electric question except that mine is hard wired from the breaker and there is no outlet for it.

I've found electric work rather shocking at unannounced times and electric can kill me so that's the first thing I'd make sure is off. Water second, being I'm not likely to drown. And speaking of water connections that old, I'd have a new shut off valve handy if there is one or at minimum a way to plug ( cap ) the water line at the washer.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Solidify said:


> Since we moved into this house many years ago, the dishwasher never worked. Its the stock dishwasher that the contract built with the home in 1973.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is nothing more than a recommendation. The nameplate would actually say the amount of power needed. In so far 100% of residential dishwashers I have seen work fine on 15amp 120 volts circuits. I have never seen one pull over 14 amps and most newer energy efficient machines done pull over 6 amps. 14 gauge is fine.

A dedicated circuit isn't required either as long as what ever elese is on there plus the dishwasher does not exceed 15amps.


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Dishwashers of that era were normally hard wired. There probably is not an outlet. But if there is the outlet must've accessible aka. Under the sink not behind the dishwasher. The junction box would located under the lower front kick panel for the hard wire. I can't speak to code, but the dishwasher manual should have the electrical specs . Some dishwashers contain water heaters now which increase the draw ofthedishwasher


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

I spent the morning removing the dishwasher and it's all done now.

I found out that the dishwasher is hard wired into the home's electrical system and connected to a dedicated 15-amp circuit breaker. I think it's 14 AWG wire like I mentioned earlier.

Upon removing the dishwasher, I noticed that the electrical cord had been badly damaged: the wire Romex has been slice open at two points on the cord, removing not only the outer insulation for the 3 wires, but also stripping the insulation for the black and white wires, which is real safety hazard. I was working on a dead circuit, thankfully, since I had turned off the breaker, but I just wrapped some electrical tape around the damaged portion as a temporary precaution.

My next question: How do I repair this? This is a home run from the panel to the dishwasher. Is there a way cut the wire before the damaged portion, add an extension, and tuck the junction box under the cabinet you see in the images below? 

Second question: Should I keep this a hard wired connection to the dishwasher or make an outlet behind there? Which is better? Does either connection preferences limit my dishwasher buying options.

N.B.: I replaced the shut off valve for the dishwasher. I wasn't going to rest soundly knowing that 40+ year old valve was in there.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Any junction box you use to splice the wires must be accessible. You can't "tuck" it in.

Do you have a basement below you?
Can you find out where the wire comes out of the wall or floor and put a box there?


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

I can cut a hole im the kitchen downstair's ceiling and make the junction box there, but that would require fishing new wire from the new box all the way up to the dishwasher location.

When I said "tuck" I meant I would put the junction box under the wooden cabinet than the kitchen sink is located. (In the picture you its the small shallow space between the tile and the wood where the wire comes out). It would still be accessible if I removed the dishwasher, just not visible.

Is this compliant?


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## Protocol. (May 31, 2012)

Don't know if this is code or not but couldn't you put a jbox on the left side on the wall right beside the DW? That is under sink area if I am not mistaken so it would be accessible. Then you can place your splice in there. I wouldn't imagine putting an outlet there would be OK since that would be modifying the circuit which means you would then need to bring it up to code..


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

I thought about putting the junction box under the sink on the drywall but wouldn't that be dangerous since it's around the plumbing? Even if it's an a weatherproof exterior box made for outside.. Just doesn't code to me.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

As long as it is "accessible" you are fine - but, you can't remove something to access it, like the dishwasher.

This is the 2014 version of the National Electric Code: 
Readily Accessible
Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection without requiring those concerned to use a tool, to climb over, remove obstacle or other.

You can hard wire the dishwasher or use a cord/plug. Check the appliance installation instructions.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

So if I chose to put the junction box on the drywall under the sink, there's no danger for water?


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

I have a junction box under my sink for the disposer and dishwasher.

Not an issue. It shouldn't get wet.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

I went ahead with the installation. How does it look?

N.B.: I included images of the portions of damaged wire that I had to cut off which created this whole issue to begin with.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Not the box I'd have used. Did you bond the ground to the box?


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

Yes, I screwed both ground leads from each cord to both ground screws at the back of the box. 

Which box would you have used? Is there an issue with the box that I used?


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

It "looks" like a standard receptacle box with ears to mount on a 2x4. I'd have used a 4x4" junction box. IMHO it mounts to a flat surface better and doesn't stick out as far.










The grounds should be connected together and a jumper run to the box.

No issues with the box itself.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

Hm, true about the bigger box. I'll know for next time.

Can you explain what you mean by this or illustrate it:

"The grounds should be connected together and a jumper run to the box."


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Cut a length of bare wire. Then take the 2 bare grounds from the Romex you have, and twist all 3 pieces of wire together. Put a wire nut on it. Then, the short piece of wire you cut connects to the box using an approved "green" ground screw.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

Is that the only way to ground the box? Because it seems to me that the way I did it below is still code:










There is no approved green ground screw but it is understood that those two silver screws in the back of the box are for grounding the ground leads. Rather than tie them together, I just tied each ground lead to a separate grounding screw at the back of the box. The box grounds both ground leads together anyways. Is this still acceptable?

If I only had one grounding screw then I'd have to use the method you suggested, but I don't.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Are those screws the same ones that hold the box to the wall?

It would not pass inspection here. Grounds are to be made up as I described.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

> Are those screws the same ones that hold the box to the wall?


No they are not.












> It would not pass inspection here. Grounds are to be made up as I described.


It's funny that you mention that since all the grounds in my home are installed like that; coiled around a silver grounding screw in the back of the box. Some even have both ground leads from two cords going to separate grounding screws in the same metal box, like I've done here. My home was built in 1973, for what it's worth.

Maybe the CEC and the NEC differ in that code.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Codes change over time. Years ago it was common to wrap the bare ground around one of the screws, not anymore. Now we make them up as described above and use a green grounding screw.

It doesn't mean what you've done is unsafe. It just doesn't wouldn't pass here nowadays.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

So my home center sells junction boxes that contain grounding screws that if used as intended would warrant an inspector to fail his inspection? In other words, grounding the leads like I did *has to be* code if those boxes are still being sold.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm in the US and things are different. Most metal boxes here do not have a grounding screw already in place, you have to supply it. Even the receptacle boxes similar to what you have do not have a grounding screw in place.

In the box I posted, you'll note the raised area. That's where the ground screw goes.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

Whether its a box with a raised green screw or a box with a silver one thats already including, the grounding component is still accounted for.


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## AandPDan (Mar 27, 2011)

Correct, it is grounded. 

Put a cover on it and call it done.


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## Solidify (Dec 17, 2014)

OK great. Thanks for your help AandPDan.


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