# kitchen sink gargles when washer is draining



## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

I think I understand. A t fitting coming off of the trap. The vertical legs would go to the trap/waste line, and the horizontal leg would have a vent. WOuld using an AAV be acceptable for this?

EDIT: Something like this? http://activerain.com/blogsview/1128696/fix-an-s-trap-with-a-studor-vent


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## reuter (Jan 16, 2010)

*Perfect sense!*

I agree, the water is searching for the easiest path, Maybe checking to see if a vent is plugged on the roof, I have had that happen before, Maybe slightly clogged with leaves etc.


http://www.diychatroom.com/kitchenfaucetemporium.com


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## rselectric1 (Oct 12, 2009)

In Illinois, S-traps are outlawed. I know this is off topic, but I haven't seen one in awhile.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

GregC said:


> Hello again, YES something like that would work. Also as Reuter stated maybe roof vent is clogged or snow build up or even if it is a smaller diameter vent increasing the size out through roof will help with venting. As a plumber one of the first things we learned was a vent serves for two puroposes. 1)Removing methane gas (sewer gas) from the house and 2) Bring in fresh air to allow waste to flow down the pipes from the house. Its like a straw with your thumb over it, if you restrict the vent size or plug it up, it will gargle etc. not allowing the waste to flow out. Hope this makes sense! Good Luck. :thumbsup:


I don't even have roof vent  My vent comes up next to the bathroom under, out from the ground. Nice to have near a window isn't it? :furious:

And I know it's not clogged. When the wind kicks up, it draws out the septic gases with it


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

thatsprobably just a vent for septic tank,no vents coming through your roof? s-traps are ilegal around here to becauce its easy for water to siphon out of traps


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

plummen said:


> thatsprobably just a vent for septic tank,no vents coming through your roof? s-traps are ilegal around here to becauce its easy for water to siphon out of traps


I'll have to look again. All I remember is just a vent for the oil furnace.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

Could the dishwasher be trying to draw air from the kitchen sink. If you don't have the dishwasher vented may be pulling the air in through your sink drain. I'm not sure but that's what I think.. The water needs air behind it to drain. There is something called a cheater vent. I'm not sure what code is where you live, They may not allow that.
I think you could maybe try finding out if its trying to pull air from your sink if you plug sink drain's and maybe put some water in each to make sure there sealed. Turn on your dishwasher and listen when it tries to drain. I would either not make that noise because I can't get air, or maybe you would hear it make the noise at the next closet drain. If its that I would watch close because your dishwasher may overflow if there isn't some kind of safety.


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## willowgirl (Dec 26, 2009)

A check vent acts as an air vent for a drain. For drain lines to work properly, they must draw in air for waste water to flow away without gurgling. Each drain in a home must have its own air vent. Drains get air in one of two ways -- by a vent pipe which extend up through the roof or a check vent (sometimes known as a cheater vent). 
When water is released from the sink into the drain, the check vent opens and allows air into the drain pipe so the water can smoothly flow away. It opens by suction. However, if the drain pipe is plugged or running slow and the water starts to back-up, the check vent will close preventing any water from spilling. When not in use, the check vent remains closed to prevent any sewer gases from escaping. 

You need to check to make sure your code allows it.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Been meaning to reply again...there is indeed no vent going through the roof. Just a vent next to the bathroom window where the drainage line exits the house.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Ok guys, how is this? I heard gargling/gurgling/whatever you want to call it, for about 10 seconds when the washer started to drain, but then it stopped. A much noticeable improvement. Hopefully when it drains again I won't hear it anymore. Also now, if one drain is plugged off, the other drains just fine (wasn't like that at all before). I'm also guessing this could fall under "emergency repair" so that a permit wouldn't be required >_>

Update: crap, it still does for the first 10 seconds or so. Then the noise moves to the bathtub drain. Man...I have an AAV right next to the washer, I now have one under the sink. Maybe its just all noise created by the massive flow of water through pvc?  I can say for sure that the toilet doesn't get siphoned (and it sits right over the drain exit).


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Anyone?


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## meboatermike (Oct 29, 2009)

Do you have a basement/cellar? I think what you really need is a good real vent system installed hooking in all your fixtures and vented properly out of the roof. I am no plumber and am sure that is not what you want to hear, but I think it is the real solution to your drain issues. Also consider installing other traps besides "S" traps.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Unless I'm mistaken, the trap I installed is a p-trap. How is it an s-trap? And why wouldn't an AAV be sufficient? The washer is vented with one, the sink is. The bathroom sink and toilet are within 4 feet of a vent directly outside of the house.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Is it possible that I may just simply have a partially clogged drain? But then the toilet never bubbles or anything like this...but the toilet also never gets siphoned either.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, I made sure to watch everything this time with a closer eye/hear. Filled up the washer with water (no detergent, clothes, etc). Once the draining starts, there is an 8 seconds of no noise from any other fixtures. After about 10 seconds, I started to hear the noise from the kitchen sink. I was in the bathroom waiting and watching the toilet. A few seconds later the water in the toilet started to move around, starting to get a bit more violent as time progressed, but still not bad yet. No bubbling. Then a few more seconds later, the tub drain started to make the noise. The water in the toilet was shaking and moving around even more. After all was said and done, the water level in the toilet did NOT drop at all.

Is this a better clue for anyone?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

The way you did it looks pretty good, except for the AAV needs to extend AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE underneath the sink. That way if it gets stuck open and your drain is a little clogged, it won't flood under your cabinet. :yes:

Also, only one slip joint is allowed in the horizontal. IE : You need to reconfigure to get rid of that extension on the outlet of the p trap.

is this by chance a mobile home?


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Alan said:


> The way you did it looks pretty good, except for the AAV needs to extend AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE underneath the sink. That way if it gets stuck open and your drain is a little clogged, it won't flood under your cabinet. :yes:
> 
> Also, only one slip joint is allowed in the horizontal. IE : You need to reconfigure to get rid of that extension on the outlet of the p trap.
> 
> is this by chance a mobile home?


Nope, not a mobile home.

Understood regarding the vent height.

Would regular PVC be able to take a slipjoint (so I could just cut a pipe to length)?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Nope, not a mobile home.
> 
> Understood regarding the vent height.
> 
> Would regular PVC be able to take a slipjoint (so I could just cut a pipe to length)?


That's just a code requirement. It's not going to cause the issue that you're having. Worst case IMHO is it's an extra joint that can leak. I wouldn't worry about it for now.

What size is the drain (the pipe that goes through the floor)?

Around here, Sinks, washing machines, showers require a 2" drain. Sometimes a drain too small, can cause this problem. especially on washing machine where it is pumping out a lot of water all at once. You don't have enough room in the pipe for the water to go downhill, so it goes uphill too and forces some air out through the kitchen p-trap.

your AAV lets air in, but not air out. I bet if you had a vent through the roof you would not have this problem.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Yeah, I see what you mean by the vent thing now. With that said, the main drain is 2" (in fact, the sink drain is 1.5 inches, and is supposed to be tieing into the 2" adapter at the bottom of the cabinet, but I couldn't get a slipjoint to start threading on it, so the pipe is really not sealed up I guess, but it doesn't leak either).

I do understand what you're saying about a real vent allowing air to escape. Gotcha. With that said, shouldn't the drain be able to handle the water to begin with?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean by the vent thing now. With that said, the main drain is 2" (in fact, the sink drain is 1.5 inches, and is supposed to be tieing into the 2" adapter at the bottom of the cabinet, but I couldn't get a slipjoint to start threading on it, so the pipe is really not sealed up I guess, but it doesn't leak either).
> 
> I do understand what you're saying about a real vent allowing air to escape. Gotcha. With that said, shouldn't the drain be able to handle the water to begin with?


If it's 2", there's plenty of drain, but it still leaves the issue with the vents. Our code says that there shall be free flow of air throughout the plumbing system, meaning that air should be able to go in and out of vents, not just in, as your AAV is doing. I bet if you took the AAV off of your sink and ran the washer it wouldn't do that anymore. 

You COULD even have a partial clog in your 2" line, where the water is backing up a little bit, but not enough to come up in the bowl of the sink.

So, without seeing the way your house is plumbed, it's hard to make a guess on how I would fix this. The right way to do it would be to just punch at LEAST one vent through the roof. Or code requires an equal amount of area going through the roof as the drain going out of the building. So if you have a 3" drain, the code requires 2x2" vent and 1x 1-1/2" vent minimum, OR a 3" vent, or something else equivalent to that.

The other thing that MIGHT fix it (as a last resort), would be to run a dedicated drain from the sink, to the 3" drain line. That way the washing machine is on it's own line and there's no way it's pushing air back through the kitchen line. Not sure if this is do-able, or easy or if it would even work, it's just a theory. 

Like I said, try without your AAV on the sink (keep a close eye so you don't flood the place in case it backs up) and see if it still does it. It SHOULDN'T still do it. If water or suds start to come up, then you COULD have a partial blockage. If you snake the line and there's no blockage it could just be suds backing up to the sink and pushing air out, in which case either punching a vent out through the roof for the sink, or running your sink separately to the main for suds relief should solve the problem.

There's my $.02 :whistling2:


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

I know that a real vent is the right solution, but I'm so trying to avoid it (I have no idea how to work with a metal roof, and dealing with drainage pipes is disgusting. Hats off to the real plumbers who do this on a day-to-day basis). Lemme try the no-aav test and go make a video of the plumbing in the basement. Brb


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> I know that a real vent is the right solution, but I'm so trying to avoid it (I have no idea how to work with a metal roof, and dealing with drainage pipes is disgusting. Hats off to the real plumbers who do this on a day-to-day basis). Lemme try the no-aav test and go make a video of the plumbing in the basement. Brb


It's not that bad, especially running a vent up. Vents are easy. The problem IS the roof. It might be worth your time to get an estimate for a roofer to come and put a roof flashing for a metal roof on for you somewhere close to where your vent will be going into the attic. Have him come the day you're going to start working on the vent, have him put the flashing on and put a length of pipe through it that you can attach to. Get it hooked up before the rain starts and you should be a-ok. It shouldn't take him even an hour to put a single flashing on. I put one on once... didn't like it, but it doesn't take very long. Messing around with roofs is some bull puckey man. 
I probably should have asked what kind of washing machine do you have?


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, it did it a hell of a lot less with the aav off. Instead, it just did it much more at the tub drain lol.
Here's a video of the setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9exHDIMcRXo

Although I am relieved to know that it's NOT siphoning that's occuring, but more like fresh air release.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Sorry to laugh but did you say there was a snake down there? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Anyway, from what I could gather just by listening, like you said the lighting wasn't very good, there's no trap on the washing machine? I'm curious then how the vent and the washing machine are connected together. Do they both go through the floor and connect below? Thats what it seemed like to me. If that's the case, then it is roughed in incorrectly. 

The way it should be is a 2" drain coming up through the floor, with a 2" x 1-1/2" x 2" sanitary tee cut into it about 8 " above the floor, and p-trap connected to the side outlet of the tee, and the vent coming straight up off of the top.

the basics of a fixture hookup :

Tailpiece is what comes off the bottom of the fixture. Then you have your p-trap. After the p-trap is the horizontal piping that connects to the vertical. This portion is called the trap arm. Then of course, the drain is down, and the vent is up.

Basically your vent should always be taken ABOVE your trap arm, otherwise it can siphon and could possibly even cause the glugging problem you're having. You're sure that's a 2" drain the entire way in the basement? I couldn't really tell by looking.

These kind of situations are hard without being there, but vents are really important. It looks like your washer and your kitchen are sort of end of line areas so either or both of those would be good places to put a real vent.

How about you try again with the AAV off of the kitchen and the washer and see if you still get it in the tub.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

The pipe splits before it goes into the basement. Yeah it's certainly a 2" pipe. I've seen a snake there this winter after some expanding spray foam lured hiim out (and I was quite shocked). It's in my spray foam topic on green home improvement.

But yeah right now there's just a Y behind the washer. one leg goes up to an AAV (this was actually an UNCAPPED pipe when I first moved in, and I couldn't understand why it smelled like puke in that room all the time). The other leg goes to the washer drain hose. The drain hose pipe seems to be about 4 or so inches shorter than the vent pipe. Lemme remove both AAVs to see what happens.

Update: err, nvm, I forgot I glued the AAV to that pipe. Can't take that one off.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Here's a better pic of what's going on behind the washer:


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> The pipe splits before it goes into the basement. Yeah it's certainly a 2" pipe. I've seen a snake there this winter after some expanding spray foam lured hiim out (and I was quite shocked). It's in my spray foam topic on green home improvement.
> 
> But yeah right now there's just a Y behind the washer. one leg goes up to an AAV (this was actually an UNCAPPED pipe when I first moved in, and I couldn't understand why it smelled like puke in that room all the time). The other leg goes to the washer drain hose. The drain hose pipe seems to be about 4 or so inches shorter than the vent pipe. Lemme remove both AAVs to see what happens.
> 
> Update: err, nvm, I forgot I glued the AAV to that pipe. Can't take that one off.


They don't unscrew? The ones we buy (to replace bad ones in mobile homes) are a female adapter that glues onto the pipe, and the AAV threads into it. Thats a bummer. Only thing you can do now to check is to cut it off and get a coupling for it to put it back together. 

Is all of the plumbing for your drains plastic even underneath the crawl space? Since the problem moved to your tub which is downstream from the kitchen when you gave it proper air to vent, i'm leaning more toward a vent problem than a clog in the line. I would be interested to see how the tub is connected, trap, no trap, aav? Any vent at all?


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Alan said:


> They don't unscrew? The ones we buy (to replace bad ones in mobile homes) are a female adapter that glues onto the pipe, and the AAV threads into it. Thats a bummer. Only thing you can do now to check is to cut it off and get a coupling for it to put it back together.
> 
> Is all of the plumbing for your drains plastic even underneath the crawl space? Since the problem moved to your tub which is downstream from the kitchen when you gave it proper air to vent, i'm leaning more toward a vent problem than a clog in the line. I would be interested to see how the tub is connected, trap, no trap, aav? Any vent at all?


Thanks for reminding me how much of a tard I can be. You're right. It was the threaded coupling I had glued on, not the AAV itself.

I honestly can't remember if the tub drain was trapped,and in fact I can't even remember if the drain was copper or pvc. I can tell you that everything else, is pvc all the way up to the toilet: from there it became iron, and then took a dive and exited the house.

Removed both AAVs, still had the bubbling sound in teh tub, but no backup. Toilet did nothing, neither did the bathroom sink next to it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If that last picture is your set up--------The Studor vent is to low. Raise it above the height of the water in the sink.

Another poster has a picture--see how he has his almost touching the bottom of the counter?

There is a check valve built in to keep it from spitting water--it won't work if it's lower than the water level.--Mike--


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Thanks for reminding me how much of a tard I can be. You're right. It was the threaded coupling I had glued on, not the AAV itself.
> 
> I honestly can't remember if the tub drain was trapped,and in fact I can't even remember if the drain was copper or pvc. I can tell you that everything else, is pvc all the way up to the toilet: from there it became iron, and then took a dive and exited the house.
> 
> Removed both AAVs, still had the bubbling sound in teh tub, but no backup. Toilet did nothing, neither did the bathroom sink next to it.


The next thing is to see how the 2" line for the washer and kitchen tie into the main. Does the tub tie into the 2" or the main? Does the lav tie into the 2" or the main ?

If the tub is tied into the 2", there's still a possibility that the 2" could have a partial clog, but it seems odd if you haven't had the tub gurgling before. If the lav doesn't do it, chances are that it's tied into the main (3" or 4") by itself, and the tub is tied into the 2". Excess air is being pushed out of the trap because there is no vent for it to go to. Thats my theory and i'm sticking to it. :thumbup:

How's the attic space above? Plenty of room to crawl around up there?

New test : Put the AAV back on the kitchen sink, leave the one off the clothes washer and see if the sink still bubbles or if it remains in the tub.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Alan said:


> The next thing is to see how the 2" line for the washer and kitchen tie into the main. Does the tub tie into the 2" or the main? Does the lav tie into the 2" or the main ?
> 
> If the tub is tied into the 2", there's still a possibility that the 2" could have a partial clog, but it seems odd if you haven't had the tub gurgling before. If the lav doesn't do it, chances are that it's tied into the main (3" or 4") by itself, and the tub is tied into the 2". Excess air is being pushed out of the trap because there is no vent for it to go to. Thats my theory and i'm sticking to it. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Yeah the sink bubbles then. The bathroom sink is tied into the 2" for sure. The 2 in is the only thing that runs to the iron that exits the house. The toilet sits on the top of the iron pipe and has a real direct route out of the house. The tub...I'm almost positive it was not tied into that iron pipe either.

The attic above the kitchen doesn't exist. If it does it's only big enough to blow insulation in and that's it. And thinking of running a vent from the kitchen sink...it would be kinda problematic since there's a window right there.

Same thing with the washer, except it's not located in front of a window.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Yeah the sink bubbles then. The bathroom sink is tied into the 2" for sure. The 2 in is the only thing that runs to the iron that exits the house. The toilet sits on the top of the iron pipe and has a real direct route out of the house. The tub...I'm almost positive it was not tied into that iron pipe either.
> 
> The attic above the kitchen doesn't exist. If it does it's only big enough to blow insulation in and that's it. And thinking of running a vent from the kitchen sink...it would be kinda problematic since there's a window right there.
> 
> Same thing with the washer, except it's not located in front of a window.


Sounds more like an airflow problem to me then. Do you own this place? I would definitely do what I could to get some vents going, even if they are minimal, and don't quite meet the surface area requirement of code you're going to be better off than you are now.

As for the kitchen vent, we almost always have to plumb them under a window. Code requires us to go as high as possible before offsetting horizontally and then run the pipe on grade and use drainage fittings until we get 6" above the flood rim.

to get vents on this stuff if there's no room above, your only option really would be to start getting creative with soffits or you'd have to run them exposed. It's more work, but if the bubbling is bothering you, that would be the way to go IMHO. Once you decide what you want to do about it, let me know if you need help with anything, i'd be glad to assist as much as I can. You can contact me on AIM if you like. Screen name is in my contact info. Good Luck!


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks for the info. There's already a soffit for an air duct, so that _could_ be utilized I suppose.

I guess my final question is: is this something I really need to worry about, or will this ultimately be more of an aesthetic issue?


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Thanks for the info. There's already a soffit for an air duct, so that _could_ be utilized I suppose.
> 
> I guess my final question is: is this something I really need to worry about, or will this ultimately be more of an aesthetic issue?


I guess it could be seen as a health concern.... your pipes fill with sewer gas while not in use. If you're getting air blown out through the traps, its probably sewer gas, although not as bad as having a wide open pipe all the time... speaking of which, you need to get a p-trap on that washing machine ASAP.

Cut off the wye. Glue on a 2 x 2 x 2 sanitary tee so that the tee branch is parallel with the wall. Before youglue it make sure whichever direction it's pointing that you have room for a 2" p-trap. Make sure you use a level when gluing on the p-trap...

Once the p-trap is on, you need to put a standpipe on it. the code is between 18-30". Make it as high as practical but stay below the 30" length. After you've done that, glue your AAV and the piece of pipe you cut off back into the top of the sanitary tee, and shabam, you're done. _I can post a picture of this if you need one, i'll look for one._ You might even get a 2" x 2" x 1-1/2" sanitary tee and an 1-1/2" cleanout adapter with plug to put on top of the 2x2x2 in case you ever need to snake that line you won't have to do it through the trap.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Clear as mud?

P.S. all of this should be above the floor, not below.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Perfect : This is how we do them : 

http://www.cdc.gov/NCEH/publication..._09/Figure9.18a_roughed-in_clothes_washer.jpg

The only reason I reccomend coming out the top with 2" is for increased airflow since you don't have any vents, if you do decide to poke one out and/or tie them together, you'll at least have a 2" vent.

Yours should look very similar to this except of course it will be outside the wall, and i'd put a cleanout on top, and make it so that the vent stays at 2".

this is probably a better explaination than before lol


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Alan, thanks for the advice. Since I haven't had a smell come in through the washer line since I've lived here, I'm not going to put in a p-trap too soon. But I will keep it in mind.

BTW...this may sound strange...but, I've noticed since I put the AAV on the sink...the water level in my toilet is noticeably higher. It's a low-flow toilet, and the water level used to barely reach above the opening in the bowl. But now it comes up a few more inches and smiles at me <_< Is it possible that venting the kitchen sink has anything to do with this?

(P.S., I absolutely wanted a higher water level in the bowl, and I hope it stays that way )


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

Tonglebeak said:


> Alan, thanks for the advice. Since I haven't had a smell come in through the washer line since I've lived here, I'm not going to put in a p-trap too soon. But I will keep it in mind.
> 
> BTW...this may sound strange...but, I've noticed since I put the AAV on the sink...the water level in my toilet is noticeably higher. It's a low-flow toilet, and the water level used to barely reach above the opening in the bowl. But now it comes up a few more inches and smiles at me <_< Is it possible that venting the kitchen sink has anything to do with this?
> 
> (P.S., I absolutely wanted a higher water level in the bowl, and I hope it stays that way )


Well toilets are designed to siphon themselves to an extent, but if there isn't a vent, it's going to siphon itself even more. Adding a vent somewhere has allowed SOME airflow even if not enough. It's possible that did the trick. My best guess anyway.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Ok thanks for that answer. I didn't know if venting had anything at all to do with toilet water level; it was just something that seemed to happen at the same time I took care of the sink trap/aav. Now I know. Thanks again.


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