# toilet flange question



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Looks like a an old lead lined cast iron pipe to me.
The best way would be to remove any of the old cast you can from below the floor and replace it with PVC. If it's not leaking now it will at some point.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That is a lead elbow---the flange is not original---Is the wood still solid enough to hold screws?

If it is--I would add a brass flange---reform the lead around the top---pack the flange/lead connection carefully with a thin layer of wax---then add the new wax ring with a plastic horn--and mount the toilet.

If the piping is accessible from underneath--consider repiping the drain with PVC.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

don't just consider replacing.....replace it ...that should have been replaced long ago....nows the time....


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

From the looks of things...
That is a close-sweep lead pipe. Just be sure you have room to get rigid PVC in there before you go to wacking up the lead. There may be a good reason that drain pipe sweeps away as quickly as it appears to.


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## donkeyk (Dec 27, 2011)

thanks for your fast responses. 

1st off I should have mentioned that the pipe is on a 2nd floor washroom. And as far as I can tell, the only way to see what is going on is to start pulling up the floor. 

On a second look I would have to agree that it's a lead extension pipe and not a lead liner in cast iron. This conclusion is based on being able to see a small amount of the pipe at the flange and no cast iron (or other pipe) appears visible.

I took some shots down the pipe using a mirror and looking at these shots you can clearly see a transition to COPPER pipe (there is a tinge of copper visible and some green oxidation if you look closely). There is a point where the uneven nasty lead extension stops and then a short (a few inches) of copper and then a longer run to the stack I suppose. Not sure what this smaller extension is for. I guess being able to see the outside of the pipe is unfortunately required to know what's going on.

The whole house looks like it has a lot of copper piping. For example you can see a first floor toilet waste pipe in its entirety and it's all copper with no lead extension.

Originally I was going to simply plop the new toilet down and oh'mike's suggestion of reforming the lead about a new brass flange would be a good solution (might even be the solution I would receive if calling a pro). I think the bolts on the brass ring would secure to something solid. Interestingly, the old AS toilet had a total of 4 fasteners in its base which would have provided an nice support for the toilet. (the new toilets usually have two bolts)

As Bud Cline mentions you dont want to start pulling out the lead extension unless you know it is feasible (enough space) to add PVC.
I am thinking it might be the best idea to pull the floor and get it dealt with properly, as the long term goal is to redo the bathroom. I suppose even if the bathroom will be mostly gutted, I wonder if there is a more modern solution to this flange assuming I eventually find that there is little space available. Arg!

Is it common to interface copper pipes to PVC? Or is it a better idea to use a copper extension with flange added? It would appear that copper piping is more durable than PVC.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> From the looks of things...
> That is a close-sweep lead pipe. Just be sure you have room to get rigid PVC in there before you go to wacking up the lead. There may be a good reason that drain pipe sweeps away as quickly as it appears to.


:thumbsup:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Copper is not superior to pvc---Expect copper to fail after about 40 years--less if chemical drain cleaners are used--


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

oh'mike said:


> Copper is not superior to pvc---Expect copper to fail after about 40 years--less if chemical drain cleaners are used--


It seems to me that ive read someplace years ago that they dug up some old copper plumbing from back in the time of the pharohs that was still in tact


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

reguardless of what is there ...that old lead NEEDS TO COME OUT....to make a proper repair or replacement of piping for commode....


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

plummen said:


> It seems to me that ive read someplace years ago that they dug up some old copper plumbing from back in the time of the pharohs that was still in tact


Crystal Drano was not invented in the days of the Pharaohs.:laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Acid doesnt do cast iron much good either! :laughing:
If more people could see what the pop that gets spilled in the drains of mountain machines at burger king does to the L-copper drain pipes running from them pepsi/coke stocks would take a major beating!


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

@ donkeyk, Your next move depends on your wallet and skills- 
You can repair the flange as Mike suggested- the lead should last if the transition joints are good. I have removed 100 yr old lead pipe that looked as good as new. Or you can tear up the floor and remove the lead pipe back to the DWV copper stack and replace with plastic.


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## donkeyk (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks again for the input.

Given that I dont have a full picture of where toilet waste pipe connects to the stack, I guess it's hard to determine if I should (could?) run PVC to the end of the old lead pipe or even all the way to stack (ie, is the entire run accessible?). Running the PVC the shorter distance and making some kind of transition to the copper pipe is probably going to be an easier fix if the stack is not accessible. 
I am starting to think that exposing this mess under the floor will be generally be a good thing. I'll post back what happens in case anyone is interested 

I am DEFINITELY not going to start doing any pipe work myself. Money isnt a big deal, I find getting competent people at any price is the issue. I would be simply happy if the job was done in the most logical manner.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

donkeyk said:


> Thanks again for the input.
> 
> Given that I dont have a full picture of where toilet waste pipe connects to the stack, I guess it's hard to determine if I should (could?) run PVC to the end of the old lead pipe or even all the way to stack (ie, is the entire run accessible?). Running the PVC the shorter distance and making some kind of transition to the copper pipe is probably going to be an easier fix if the stack is not accessible.
> I am starting to think that exposing this mess under the floor will be generally be a good thing. I'll post back what happens in case anyone is interested
> ...


thats the right choice...work from the copper back to the old lead and install new flange I don't think you have to worry about going back to stack...


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## PlumbDumb (Jan 30, 2012)

If you want to leave the floor in tact (at least for now) see if you can access this plumbing from a blowout in the ceiling of the room below.

Either way you should definitely replace the lead with PVC. This can be very tricky because the old lead bends can be molded into whatever angle, offset, length and hight protruding through the floor upstairs where the toilet sits. With PVC you only have increments to work with (Ells, street ells, 45's, street 45's, 22 and street 22's, etc.) Each of these fittings also have "vent" counterparts (vent ell, vent street ell, etc.) Vent fittings are "shorter turn" versions of these fittings. You may have to make some ridiculously awesome super fitting out of 2-3 of these individual fittings to match your old lead's bend. And then, you have to contend with the fact that if you pull the floor and put down a new one, there may not be enough room above your final pvc pipe hub to accomodate the female toilet flange's hub under the floor. Or vise versa if you try to leave the final hub at the correct hight to glue in a street flange, there may be too much room and your flange wont reach the hub. AND THEN you may have to change the distance off the back wall. Most modern toilets require 12" from the tank wall to center of the toilet flange. Some older toilets used 11" or even 10" stand-off from the tank wall (like maybe that old AS you pulled).

Basically what im trying to say is when my boss tells me at 4:30pm to go change a lead bend, I cry a little on the inside. If you can find a plumber worth his salt have him do it. Changing lead bends to PVC is a real pain in the d**k if she's a tight bend. This is where most DIY'ers get themselves unto trouble because 3 hours in they settle for "good enough" instead of "correct".

BUUUT if you can get us some pictures (preferably with a tape measure so we can see how tight we need to work) it's do-able.


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