# 400 Amp Service with 2 200 Amp Panels



## Speedy Petey

You'll get folks to dispute this since one panel is not carrying the entire load, but here even for a 400A service with two 200A panels we would use 4/0AL (2/0CU) to feed each panel.

If using cable then yes, you need two hots, a neutral and a ground. Typical would be SER cable.


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## pjbadding

Is it against code to have 2 200 Amp panels for 400 Amp service?

Is it recommended to have two 200 Amp services with one feeding each 200 Amp panel? If this were done, wouldn't we need two meters with separate service cables from the utility? This just seems like it would add cost more than anything.


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## pjbadding

Is it against code to have 2 200 Amp panels for 400 Amp service?

Is it recommended to have two 200 Amp services with one feeding each 200 Amp panel? If this were done, wouldn't we need two meters with separate service cables from the utility? This just seems like it would add cost more than anything.


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## Speedy Petey

A 320/400 amp service with one meter, feeding two 200A panels, is absolutely typical and common.


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## Speedy Petey

Did you do a load calculation? Do you really need a 400A service?


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## pjbadding

I've done a load calculation and I don't need 400 but I need more than 200. My garage shop will have several 240v 30-50 Amp dedicated circuits (table saw, dust collector, welder, electric heater, etc.). I decided on going with 400 as I plan to add a separate Morton building and want to have the ability to add service to the Morton building at that time.


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## AllanJ

But one panel would not be a subpanel off of the other, 200 amp, panel. 

Both 200 amp panels would be "main" panels, installed next to each other so the top (main) breakers of both may be flipped off at the same time.


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## pjbadding

One of the panels will be installed on the other side of the basement which will be 100' away from the SE so my assumption is that the panel located 100' away would be considered a sub-panel and installed as such.


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## Jim Port

Then you will need a disconnect next the the other panel. The disconnect will be wired as a service as well as the 200 amp main breaker panel.


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> Then you will need a disconnect next the the other panel. The disconnect will be wired as a service as well as the 200 amp main breaker panel.


My assumption is that the sub-panel would have a main breaker similar to the main panel. Does this suffice as the "disconnect" you mentioned?


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## Jim Port

The main in the second panel will just be a redundant switch. The services must be grouped so you will have a disconnect next to the first panel.


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> The main in the second panel will just be a redundant switch. The services must be grouped so you will have a disconnect next to the first panel.


If I may summarize...A disconnect will be placed next to the main panel. The disconnect will be fed from the main panel and the sub-panel will be fed from the disconnect. I can have a main breaker in the sub-panel if I want to be able to disconnect power to the sub-panel at the sub-panel. Is this correct? What type of "disconnect" is required in this case?


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## joed

The disconnect will NOT be fed from the main panel. It will be fed from the 400 amp service.


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## pjbadding

joed said:


> The disconnect will NOT be fed from the main panel. It will be fed from the 400 amp service.


OK. Then why not just feed from the 400 amp service to the 2nd 200 Amp Panel and treat them both as separate 200 amp main panels each with a main breaker?


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## Jim Port

The services must be grouped adjacent to each other. Since you want one panel in a different location you need a disconnect .


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## joed

You can't a have a 100' length of unfused conductors coming right off the 400 amp services. Plus you need to be able to turn all the power from one location with no more than 6 switches.


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## Know A Little

pjbadding said:


> If I may summarize...A disconnect will be placed next to the main panel. The disconnect will be fed from the main panel and the sub-panel will be fed from the disconnect. I can have a main breaker in the sub-panel if I want to be able to disconnect power to the sub-panel at the sub-panel. Is this correct? What type of "disconnect" is required in this case?


You can save money in the second panel by buying a Main Lug Panel in lieu of a Main Breaker panel.


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> The services must be grouped adjacent to each other. Since you want one panel in a different location you need a disconnect .


Since I'll have more than 6 breakers in the 2nd panel, I believe I will need a main breaker at the panel in addition to the disconnect at the main panel. Is this correct?

I'm just curious, but is this 2nd panel considered a main panel since it's not coming directly off the SE panel?

What type of disconnect is required/suggested for the 2nd panel?

I really appreciate all of the great information you've provided!


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## Speedy Petey

pjbadding said:


> Since I'll have more than 6 breakers in the 2nd panel, I believe I will need a main breaker at the panel in addition to the disconnect at the main panel. Is this correct?


As long as the main disconnect is within/on the same structure as the panel NO main or local disconnect is required.




pjbadding said:


> I'm just curious, but is this 2nd panel considered a main panel since it's not coming directly off the SE panel?


It would be a main panel, but it would not be the service equipment since the main disconnect would be separate from it.




pjbadding said:


> What type of disconnect is required/suggested for the 2nd panel?


Any 200A service rated fused disconnect or breaker enclosure. If it will be outdoors it would need to be outdoor rated.


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## pjbadding

Speedy Petey said:


> As long as the main disconnect is within/on the same structure as the panel NO main or local disconnect is required.
> 
> 
> It would be a main panel, but it would not be the service equipment since the main disconnect would be separate from it.
> 
> 
> Any 200A service rated fused disconnect or breaker enclosure. If it will be outdoors it would need to be outdoor rated.


I just talked to a guy and he mentioned that he's installed this configuration using a 320 Meter Base that included 2 200 AMP Breakers. Would this be the simplest way to install the configuration that I need?


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## Jim Port

With that setup the services are grouped at the meterbase. Both interior panels would be wired as subpanels with 4 wire feeds.


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> With that setup the services are grouped at the meterbase. Both interior panels would be wired as subpanels with 4 wire feeds.


Is there any advantage or disadvantage to this setup?


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## Jim Port

Saves the cost of a disconnect


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## Know A Little

Jim Port said:


> Saves the cost of a disconnect


and the cost of main breaker panels.


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## Speedy Petey

A 320/400A meter base with main breakers is quite expensive, so I don't really see any cost savings there. It is simpler to install and cleaner though.


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## Jim Port

I have seen main breaker panels cheaper than MLO panels.


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## Know A Little

Jim Port said:


> I have seen main breaker panels cheaper than MLO panels.


Very well could be in a single phase panel as a Main CB is more common.


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## pjbadding

All - I really appreciate all of the great information provided here and the very helpful responses. I have decided to go with a 320/400 Meter Base/Combo with 2-200 AMP Breakers along with 2 Main Lug Panels rather than 2 Main CB Panels.

Now, I'm trying to decided on what size main lug panels to go with. I've put together the circuit configuration below. Do I go with 30-30 panels?


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## Jim Port

Many 200 amp panels are 40 circuits. It does not hurt to have more room.


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## pjbadding

Given that I plan on adding a Morton building and generator hookup, do you suggest going with 40-40 full-size main lug panels?

Additionally, do you see any issues with the branch-circuit setup I've put together?


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## Oso954

> Additionally, do you see any issues with the branch-circuit setup I've put together?


First thing that jumped out is GFCIs. You missed the garage receptacles. Also, the basement receptacles, if the basement is not finished.

Also, if you are IDing GFCIs, why are you not identifying AFCI protection?


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## pjbadding

Oso954 said:


> First thing that jumped out is GFCIs. You missed the garage receptacles. Also, the basement receptacles, if the basement is not finished.
> 
> Also, if you are IDing GFCIs, why are you not identifying AFCI protection?


I've been reviewing code and haven't gotten to the point where I 100% know what needs AFCI protection. My understanding is that AFCI protection is required on all circuits supplying wall outlets. Is this correct and does it apply to the bath and Kitchen small appliance circuits?


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## Jim Port

What edition of the code is adopted in your area?


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> What edition of the code is adopted in your area?


National Electric Code /2008 as referenced in Section 1201.1.1


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## Oso954

> My understanding is that AFCI protection is required on all circuits supplying wall outlets.


When the code says outlets, they are talking about any point of use, not "wall outlets". Those are referred to as receptacles or receptacle outlets. So the lighting circuits in the dwelling will require AFCI as well.

The 2008 requirements,

"(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit."

I would interpret that to include finished rooms or areas in a basement. 

Looking at it the other way, kitchen,bathrooms, laundry and the garage don't need them.


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## pjbadding

I've modified the image to replicate a 40-40 panel to show how the panels will be setup. I've also added the GFCI and AFCI call-outs. I've tried balancing the load as best I can but I'm not sure it's best practice or not. Any input on this would be great.


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## Know A Little

Jim Port said:


> Many 200 amp panels are 40 circuits. It does not hurt to have more room.


:thumbsup:

For the difference in cost go with the maximum number CB's allowed 40.


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## Oso954

Why would 40 be the maximum number allowed in this case ? 

I thought the 42 circuit rule got removed in 2008. What am I missing ?


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## Speedy Petey

Oso954 said:


> When the code says outlets, they are talking about any point of use, not "wall outlets". Those are referred to as receptacles or receptacle outlets. So the lighting circuits in the dwelling will require AFCI as well.
> 
> The 2008 requirements,...........


And the 2014NEC goes insane over the top with these requirements, like refers and DW's as well. Pretty much everything in a dwelling.


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## Speedy Petey

Oso954 said:


> Why would 40 be the maximum number allowed in this case ?
> 
> I thought the 42 circuit rule got removed in 2008. What am I missing ?


It was. 
I was just at the supply house this AM and they had a new Cutler Hammer main breaker BR series panel, 60/120!! The thing was over 4 foot tall.


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## Know A Little

Speedy Petey said:


> It was.
> I was just at the supply house this AM and they had a new Cutler Hammer main breaker BR series panel, 60/120!! The thing was over 4 foot tall.


Any additional gutter space?


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## Jim Port

Are all the critical loads in one panel so the generator can back them up?


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## pjbadding

Jim Port said:


> Are all the critical loads in one panel so the generator can back them up?


That's a good point Jim. Not all of my critical loads are in one panel.


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## Arrow3030

Who's doing your load calcs? I think if you're going to use a panel with that much extra space you should put access panels or stubs for future expansion.


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## Speedy Petey

Know A Little said:


> Any additional gutter space?


It didn't look any wider, just much taller. It was still in the box.


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## Oso954

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Eaton/BR60120NL200.pdf

It isn't. They maintained width so it fits between standard stud spacing. I love the length the neutral bars, but in that panel they could have gone even longer.


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## pjbadding

Arrow3030 said:


> Who's doing your load calcs? I think if you're going to use a panel with that much extra space you should put access panels or stubs for future expansion.


I had not completed the load calculations until now as it's been mentioned several times. For the most part, I was going with 400 service as it was recommended to me by an electrician buddy to "future proof" given that we plan on staying in this house.

The load calc I completed is below and as you can see, I come in far under 400 amp service. I believe that I did everything correctly. Not sure if I should go with 400 service now...even if I plan on adding another building in the future.


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## Know A Little

Speedy Petey said:


> It didn't look any wider, just much taller. It was still in the box.


Residential they are most likely not going to make it any wider than stud spacing.


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## fa_f3_20

Can't find if this was mentioned or not, but don't forget that the setup you propose makes your panels subpanels from the code standpoint, which means you need to wire separate neutral and ground to them.


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## pjbadding

pjbadding said:


> I had not completed the load calculations until now as it's been mentioned several times. For the most part, I was going with 400 service as it was recommended to me by an electrician buddy to "future proof" given that we plan on staying in this house.
> 
> The load calc I completed is below and as you can see, I come in far under 400 amp service. I believe that I did everything correctly. Not sure if I should go with 400 service now...even if I plan on adding another building in the future.


Does anyone have any input on my load calcs and going with 400 amp service? I think the least I would go with is 300 amp service and I'm not sure there is a significant difference between cost for 300 and 400 amp service.


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## Speedy Petey

pjbadding said:


> Does anyone have any input on my load calcs and going with 400 amp service? I think the least I would go with is 300 amp service and I'm not sure there is a significant difference between cost for 300 and 400 amp service.


Well, things like the RV, table saw and "specialty" IMO do not even need to be in there, unless of course they will be used nearly all the time. Considering this plus the fact that you are so far under 200A even with them in there say you probably do not need a 400A service, especially considering the house is only 2500 sq/ft. 
And you are correct, a 300A service is probably no cheaper than a 400. Just like a 150 is no cheaper than a 200A in today's world.


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## Tom738

Depends on money. 200 is cheaper and gets it done, 400 is more expensive but makes future expansion easier if you happen to add big electric draws down the line. (Like electric cars, electric heat, etc...). 

So it's really a question of the price difference and how much you feel you're willing to spend to avoid having to upgrade the service on the off chance you happen to add stuff down the road. If you feel you're very likely to add stuff or find that the difference in cost is small enough that the money's really not better used elsewhere, go ahead and do it.


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