# Old storm windows out, replacement windows in



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm about to get bids for replacing my old double-hung windows, circa 1954 (I'm amazed they lasted this long) with top quality vinyl replacement windows to be installed from the inside. The house is also vinyl sided. 

The storm windows will have to come off which will expose the stops which are peeling. The stops have remnants of some kind of flat gasket material nailed to them here and there which I think means that there was some type of storm window there before the current storm windows. The current storm windows were installed on the outer stops so they covered the view of the peeling paint and gasket material from the exterior. From the inside you can see the peeling and leftover gasket material when the window is open. 

Now to my question(s). Is the best option for the stops and sill to wrap them in aluminum? 

Should the J-channel around the windows be replaced at this time? It's fairly old and is bowing here and there, so it's going to look lousy next to newly wrapped window trim. 

Should we apply additional trim to the window opening at this point to bring it out flush with the J-channel? The more I think about this, the more I think that the current siding job (or was it siding and storm windows at the same time?) took the cheapest/easiest route.


----------



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Can you post up a picture of the exterior? 

Most replacement projects will entail wrapping the exterior trim to conceal the carnage and to cover the trim for the cleaner aesthetic as well as protection of the weather sensitive materials.


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

The stops are usually removed in a replacement window scenario to create a flat jamb.

Inside trim mount storm windows are usually attached to the stop. Some short-cut people attach them to the exterior trim or brick mold. 

A real short cut siding job covers part of the trim with siding.

I agree a few pictures are needed to identify what you have.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll take a couple of pictures when I get home from work. 

In a new vinl siding job that goes over the existing shingles is it normal to add a layer of trim around the windows so that the siding doesn't project out farther than the trim and the J-channel has something firm to rest against? If so, I think that they just installed storm windows instead of trim and snugged the J-channel up to them, so the siding doesn't look totally lame. It only looks partially lame.


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

This bunch and I will be brutally honest with you but we do it with love. 

I don't know what you mean by shingles. In a frame home with clapboards and vinyl added later the J- when attached beside the trim usually projects 1/2-3/4" more than the trim.

In new home vinyl construction the J is built into the vinyl window frame brick mold.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

I guess shingles is ambiguous since that can mean a roof covering or a wall covering. In my case, the house was sided with cedar shingles. The vinyl was applied over them. The storm windows overlap the window trim by 3/4" on the top and sides for mounting purposes. The J-channel is applied to the trim as well and snugged up to the storm window. 

With the storm window pulled out, the J-channel projects close to an inch out from the trim. Looks lousy with that little recessed trim exposed. If like it to be wider and not recessed at all, but what are you going to do, cut back the siding, install trim over the trim, wrap it all, and put in new J-channel? 

I'm just crazy enough to do that. 

Pictures will be coming later today.


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Some people build out the trim by adding a layer of 1X stock. Whether that works or not depends on the window sill. To do it right is a lot of work. It has to be flashed properly or you are creating a water trap.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

Picture1 shows the lower right corner of the window. The lower part of the sill is wrapped in aluminum. The storm window which is now sitting on the ground to the right of the window came down to the edge of the aluminum. So the part of the sill that was exposed to the weather was wrapped and the unexposed (sort of) part was painted.

Picture2 shows the upper right corner. The black thing sticking to the outer stop/trim piece is a fragment of gasket material that they didn't bother to remove. Note the J-channel at the top which is sagging because nothing was supporting it. It rode over the flange of the storm window.

Picture3 shows the lower left corner. More gasket remnants, peeling paint etc.

The depth of the outer stop is 3/4". The reveal between the edge of the J-channel and the edge of the outer stop is 3/4".


----------



## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I would build out the trim and wrap with Alum, your J channel might be ok once you have some lumber behind it


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

First thing to do is remove that sill cap and check the condition of
the wood under it.
This was probably a low budget installation,since the window trim was 
covered and the old storms were never removed so the sill cap could be
run up to under the interior(lower) sash.
The way it was done water was getting under that existing sill cap.
We called this type of installation jumping the casings and short capping
the sills.

A couple ways to go on this and you should have all your estimates written up
in detail from each bidder.

One way is to wrap the stops and have the new metal extend past the face of the 
J and lock into it.A good brake man could do this without too much trouble.The only
limit would be the width he'd be able to make the face trim.
Minimum of 2 1/2" to a max of 3 1/2" would probably look ok,depending on the 
style of house.
With this method I'd extend the sill out at least 1" past the siding by nailing/screwing a piece the same thickness as the sill,to its face,but have it extend past the J,and to the outer edges of the finished opening.
When this sill gets recapped,the metal should extend well under the new window.

You could also cut back the siding and reface the old trim with PVC.The j could be
set back from where it is now and it would look much nicer.But the devil is in the detail.Whatever is done should be done in a way to avoid any water penetration.

Too many details to list here,but there are some guide lines available if your good at
sifting through all the trash that's available online.
Someone may be along that has links to valid installations.
If I find any I'll post back.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> I would build out the trim and wrap with Alum, your J channel might be ok once you have some lumber behind it


That's what I was thinking. It would only be a 3/4" x 3/4" piece of trim, but it would support the J channel and reduce that recessed window look somewhat.

Should it be red cedar primed with oil based primer on all sides, then caulked and nailed? I wouldn't want moisture to get in and cause rot.


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Here's a link to help understand proper waterproofing methods.
Although this is for a complete new window installation,the same 
principals can be applied to and new or reworked trim being done 
on your windows:http://www.albertsroofing.com/Window Flashing.htm


----------



## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Trust me....
You better find a contractor that knows.........


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

oldfrt said:


> One way is to wrap the stops and have the new metal extend past the face of the J and lock into it.A good brake man could do this without too much trouble.The only limit would be the width he'd be able to make the face trim. Minimum of 2 1/2" to a max of 3 1/2" would probably look ok,depending on the style of house.
> 
> With this method I'd extend the sill out at least 1" past the siding by nailing/screwing a piece the same thickness as the sill,to its face,but have it extend past the J,and to the outer edges of the finished opening. When this sill gets recapped,the metal should extend well under the new window.


I get what you're saying about the sill extension, but not sure if I picture what you're saying about wrapping the stops and locking in to the J-channel. I'll make a drawing and post it here to see if get it.



> You could also cut back the siding and reface the old trim with PVC.The j could be set back from where it is now and it would look much nicer. But the devil is in the detail.Whatever is done should be done in a way to avoid any water penetration.
> 
> Too many details to list here,but there are some guide lines available if your good at sifting through all the trash that's available online. Someone may be along that has links to valid installations.
> 
> If I find any I'll post back.


Thanks, all the advice is much appreciated.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

ron45 said:


> Trust me....
> You better find a contractor that knows.........


That's what I'm worried about. I guess if I ask detailed questions about how they are going to wrap it and they respond in a vague or evasive way, I should keep looking. Plus it's best to have detailed specs so that they know what's expected. This is a question of doing it right AND having the same specs to bid on. :thumbup:


----------



## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Has the siding been done since you owned the home.If it was whoever did the siding did you a disservice by not suggesting( At extra cost of course) that the sill and jambs be wrapped then.They may have been in better shape then.If the siding people are the ones that wrapped the sill you are lucky they did not do the windows.
At this point I would remove some of the siding and use new construction window with the proper weatherproofing.It will be at a higher cost but beats throwing good money after bad in my opinion.
I actually see a lot of houses and windows like that in this area and we do what we can with what we work with including some tight budgets.The job looks very good when we are done but is not the best it could be.
Replacement windows are an option on a budget but you need to get someone that knows how to seal and wrap the jambs properly.


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I can't add much to what Oldfrt said. He covered it well.

Covering that narrow band of wood and capping that sill may be all that is needed since the new vinyl windows will have a 2" band at the sides and top that will simulate something like a brick mold. Add that to the approx 1" you have and that will be close to the 'noral 3.5" frame home trim.

Here they say one pic = 1000 words. This image is of a cross section of a vinyl window frame. Viewed in this orientation this would be the top of the frame. The small channel at the top allows for the insertion of a piece of F-trim which can hide many sins when the window is way out of square. The channel that is resting on the tongs is where the screen is inserted.

When viewed from a distance this looks like part of the house trim.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

mako1 said:


> Has the siding been done since you owned the home.If it was whoever did the siding did you a disservice by not suggesting( At extra cost of course) that the sill and jambs be wrapped then.They may have been in better shape then.If the siding people are the ones that wrapped the sill you are lucky they did not do the windows.
> At this point I would remove some of the siding and use new construction window with the proper weatherproofing.It will be at a higher cost but beats throwing good money after bad in my opinion.
> I actually see a lot of houses and windows like that in this area and we do what we can with what we work with including some tight budgets.The job looks very good when we are done but is not the best it could be.
> Replacement windows are an option on a budget but you need to get someone that knows how to seal and wrap the jambs properly.


The previous owners are responsible for the siding. A pair of retired pathologists. I think they were just cheap. I'm cheap too, but I don't skimp on something that will be part of my house for decades. They also did or had done some pretty poor interior painting that I've spent a lot of time sanding and patching. Every painting mistake you can make was made in this house. Dirty brushes leaving hair, dust and grit in the finish coat, roller knap so long that the roller slides instead of rolling, a trowel gouge in almost every square foot of wall, big drips on the woodwork. 

I'm trying to do this the right way as much as my budget allows. I think it's only going to allow for replacements.


----------



## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I understand that.Deal with it every day for customers.Just do your best to replace any wood that is in need of it and get the wood wrapped by someone that knows what they are doing.If it's not to big a deal I would pull the trim off of the inside and look for water intrusion and insulation that way before having the replacement windows installed.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

The sills on the south side of the house on the second floor are in pretty poor condition. I did a little research on Minwax wood hardener and wood filler. Seems like I could use that if the damage isn't too deep. There are things I can do to prepare before having someone come in to do the work. This is one of them and frankly, I know that people often have a narrow range of what they do well. Window restoration probably isn't a skill that you find in people who do window replacements. I'm not saying that there aren't talented restorers doing replacements but finding them is probably just a matter of luck. 

There's a video on replacing an entire window sill without disturbing the rest of the window by Tom Silva who is the carpenter on This Old House. Pretty ingenious. I hope I don't have to do anything like that.


----------



## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I have never used the Minwax product and am not a big fan of most of their products.You might want to try some bondo or Durhams water putty.Just make sure all of the old rot is cut out and everything is dry before repairing and covering with anything.


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Here's a link to a thread on a sister site that has some good detail on fixing
those sills.
This member does an excellent job documenting his work and may be of some 
help:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f33/hurd-window-job-99692/


----------



## fortunerestore (Mar 6, 2014)

As far as the replacement projects are considered, it will entail wrapping the exterior trim. This will conceal the carnage. Also it will cover the trim for the cleaner aesthetic. Before doing this, make sure you remove that sill cap. Along this, don’t forget to check the condition of the wood under it.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

This discussion has got me thinking (sometimes a dangerous thing). 

As oldfrt said earlier, the siding job was probably done on the cheap which explains why they "jumped the casing and shortcapped the sill" leading to the terrible look that I have now. fortunerestore mentioned "concealing the carnage". That's a good way to put it, though I think I'm going to prime everything that's going to be wrapped because I want some kind of protection under the aluminum. Does that make sense? Does it not really matter?

I think I'd also like to reverse the carnage somewhat and go for a look that could have been achieved if they didn't cheap out on the original siding job. I've been looking at houses in my neighborhood that are of a similar style and age to mine. In those that aren't sided I see wide window casings often with a brickmould or some other decorative profile. These are houses with wood siding, not bricks. I assume this is to add attractive details to the house. 

But I have siding and I'm wrapping the casings so curved profiles are out. Are there angular profiles that can be added to the casings to provide a little bit of detail? I figure if I'm going as far as building out casings and extending sills I might as well consider this. The additional cost might not be that much.


----------



## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

What I have done to get windows to pop, is wrap with a contrasting color scheme. I also like the trim wide and proud of the siding. A full 2 x 6 works good. This will keep the geometry simple for wrapping but will really dress up the window. I am not a fan of the cheesy plastic shutters. On my own house I have light tan siding and all the trim is wrapped in forest green.


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> What I have done to get windows to pop, is wrap with a contrasting color scheme. I also like the trim wide and proud of the siding. A full 2 x 6 works good. This will keep the geometry simple for wrapping but will really dress up the window. I am not a fan of the cheesy plastic shutters. On my own house I have light tan siding and all the trim is wrapped in forest green.


I like this idea. What are your feelings about having the color of the J-channel match the color of the window casings? I think it looks better that way because it looks more like wood siding that way, but I've only seen it with white trim. Can you even get matching non-white siding and aluminum wrap?

I suppose there are fancy wrap jobs that can cover the J-channel and achieve the same result.


----------



## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

abrowning said:


> I like this idea. What are your feelings about having the color of the J-channel match the color of the window casings? I think it looks better that way because it looks more like wood siding that way, but I've only seen it with white trim. Can you even get matching non-white siding and aluminum wrap?
> 
> I suppose there are fancy wrap jobs that can cover the J-channel and achieve the same result.



Alum and siding is stocked in colors by siding wholesalers but even if the color did match you would still have a very noticeable transition. I think it makes more sense to keep the J same color as the siding and provide the contrast with the adjacent alum wrap. IMO


----------



## abrowning (Jun 2, 2008)

I haven't forgotten about this thread or abandoned my window project but I have been thrown a curveball in the form of a first floor bathroom with a slow leak around the wax ring that led to a rotted subfloor that had to be replaced. Out came the fixtures, the tile, the underlayment, and the subfloor. A major leak is much better! You find it right away and hopefully all you have to do is let the area dry out. A tiny drip over months or years just allows rot to develop. The rot reached up to a foot from the toilet flange. 

Anyhow, back to windows. My wife wants white trim. It was suggested to me that the siding should be cut back and PVC trim installed along with new J-channel and the sill should be extended and wrapped in aluminum coil. 

My question is: will the white of the PVC match the white of the coil? If they do, will they still match a year or two later?

I guess they should match. New construction windows that are clad in white vinyl or aluminum routinely get trimmed in PVC and I can't say I've noticed mismatched whites on them...


----------



## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Have a sharp eye for shades of color? Probably not. 

For the rest of us, white is one of of the harder colors in which to detect subtle shade differences. No one but you is likely to see the variation.


----------



## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

the sheen will be a little different between the vinyl on the window and the alum trim.
The window will be a gloss finish and the alum is or satin or even flat. You can use a vinyl coated alum wrap, cost a little more but should help with the sheen difference.

But either way, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.


----------

