# Can I remove this wall?



## limited60 (Feb 12, 2012)

I apologize in advance for the length of the post and the size of the images, but smaller images make details nearly impossible to read.
I am looking to do a main-floor kitchen reno, but can't tell if this wall can be pulled or not.










It's a 2x4 wall, measuring 25" in width. Inside the opening, the studs are 18" apart. There is a double top plate at the top of the, but I have not revealed the framing completely. Only enough to see the studs and the top plates.
My initial concern was that the beam was supported by a metal pole or studs inside that wall, but, I cut an opening to verify what was inside, and it's just empty. 

As you'll see in the subsequent pictures, there is nothing below this wall (other than floor joists) providing support all the way through to the foundation.
The beam is set in 3" from the far right side of the wall. The total finished width of the beam is 7"....making the entire beam without any _direct _vertical support beneath it, except the 2 top plates upon which it rests. I don't know how this all works, but it would appear that this isn't a load bearing wall, but I don't know if the double top plate confirms whether it supports a load or not.
Here are my blueprints.
The red rectangle is roughly where the wall sits. This first image is the joist layout of the 2nd floor. The wall I'm looking to remove is on the main floor, so these are the joists above the wall I want to take out.
You can see the beam running perpendicular to the wall in question










Here is the second picture, this is the layout of the joists of the floor that the wall sits on. The main floor.
The wall does span 2 floor joists, but sits a good 12" away from the beam that runs parallel to it....so, I thought it would have sat atop that beam for vertical support through to the basement, but it doesn't. It just bridges 2 floor joists.










This is looking up from the basement at the area where the footprint of that wall would be. I have drilled 2 screws in on either end of the wall to find it's footprint in the basement ceiling. They are the red squares. 
So, there is nothing from beneath that shows any real support vertically. 








Here are the roof trusses. If they tell any story....but they are 2 floors up.










My red line is about where the stud lines up relative to the outside of the beam.










Here is the kitchen layout. Wall is right beside dishwasher, indicated by arrow.










Another of the interior walls:


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## titanoman (Nov 27, 2011)

2 top plates doesn't mean anything.
That wall is just there for ascetics.
It doesn't have to be there, except the end of it where the beam is.


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## limited60 (Feb 12, 2012)

titanoman said:


> 2 top plates doesn't mean anything.
> That wall is just there for ascetics.
> It doesn't have to be there, except the end of it where the beam is.


Thanks for the reply...hoping for others to confirm.....just for my own state of mind.

But just for my own knowledge, what would this have needed have around it to be load bearing?

My guess is direct support beneath the wall itself in the basement, straight to the foundation (with, like, a tele pole), and studs directly beneath the beam....


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## limited60 (Feb 12, 2012)

Just hoping for some more input here if any can provide it.

Is there not enough info, does the info provided lead to contradictions....

I'm getting close to having an engineer come in.....and would prefer having someone confirm whether this is bearing or not...



Thanks


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

I wouldn't take any internet advice as "confirmation" that you're ok with anything. Disclaimer said, I can clearly see according to your plans that is not supposed to be a load bearing wall.


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## limited60 (Feb 12, 2012)

Well, I posted this on a few reno boards, nearly unanimously, it was declared as "NOT LOAD BEARING"....

Had a structural engineer come in, and....it's a bearing wall.

Glad I was cautious.....but yes, internet advice is never a replacement for having someone come in to assess the situation.

$600 in fees for the inspection, saved me having a bedroom in my kitchen.


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## pucks101 (Apr 20, 2012)

limited60 said:


> Well, I posted this on a few reno boards, nearly unanimously, it was declared as "NOT LOAD BEARING"....
> 
> Had a structural engineer come in, and....it's a bearing wall.
> 
> ...


Good thing you took the safe bet then, huh? I noticed earlier you said there are 2 top-plates, and someone else replied that doesn't mean anything- while it may not confirm anything, it is a clue, as 2 top-plates are often put in for load, but not always. I'm curious though why your plans didn't point out the load, and how the load is transferred with nothing under it? Did you have that explained by the engineer? Is it an actual load wall, or is an additional point-load to just to square or tie some other points together due to length of joists or something like that?


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## limited60 (Feb 12, 2012)

Since it straddles 2 joists on a perpendicular axis, it bears load and transfers it down onto those joists.

He said that the load is approx 2600lbs, which, apparently isn't all that much....but still necessary to have support.

It's been a while since he was here, so, the terminology escapes me. But since it doens't transfer load to the foundation.....the beam-straddle is necessary. If I rebuild or move the wall in question, I have to block in the area upon which it sits.....again, to distribute that weight from above.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

pucks101 said:


> Good thing you took the safe bet then, huh? I noticed earlier you said there are 2 top-plates, and someone else replied that doesn't mean anything- while it may not confirm anything, it is a clue, as 2 top-plates are often put in for load, but not always. I'm curious though why your plans didn't point out the load, and how the load is transferred with nothing under it? Did you have that explained by the engineer? Is it an actual load wall, or is an additional point-load to just to square or tie some other points together due to length of joists or something like that?


Every where I have build 2 top plates means nothing as our interior and exterior studs are the same length with both having a double top plate.
Load bearing walls quite often land above a beam or are supported directly underneath but not always, have worked on houses where the support was about 2' away from where the load bearing wall was.

Need to look above and below to see if it is load bearing. Crawl up in the attic, and look under the floor.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Is all of it load bearing or just the end under the beam across the ceiling?


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