# knotty pine vaulted ceiling



## micromind

When I built my house 12 years ago, I used 1X4 and 1X6 rough-sawn tongue and groove pine on all the ceilings except the kitchen, bathrooms, and closets. 

20' is about the longest you'll find it, but 12-16 is more standard. If you specify lengths, you'll usually pay more. Random lengths are the least costly, you'll get anything from 6' to 16'. 

Tongue and groove is pretty easy to install, as is ship-lap. Ship-lap must be nailed on the surface, the nails on tongue and groove can be concealed.

All boards will warp and twist to some degree, it's much easier to straighten a 4" wide board than an 8" one. Most of my ceilings are all 4", a few are 4" alternating with 6". 

When you get the wood, make sure to acclimate it to the room before you install it. This means simply to stack it with a bit of airspace between each board in the room it is to be installed in for a few days, maybe a week. If you don't, even kiln-dried wood will shrink, leaving ugly gaps in the joints. 

There's a knack to installing this type of wood, it'll take some time to get it. It can be a lot of work, or fairly easy. Building a scaffold, and having 2 people will help a lot, but it can be done from a ladder with one person. 

When you get 3 or 4 feet from the end, measure from the last board to the wall in a few spots. The measurements will almost certainly be different. You'll need to tighten up the joints where the measurements are smaller, and loosen up where they are longer. This is part of the knack of making it look good. If you don't do this, your last board will be tapered, and look terrible. 

There's actually a lot to this, but it certainly can be done, and if done right, it'll look great.

Rob


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

raghib said:


> ...We don't want to pay expense of "pre-finished" so we thought we would go to a lumber yard to buy the knotty pine. I was interested if any one had any ideas on length size since the longest I can find is 12 foot long.
> Therefore we are going to have to cut and piece. Has anyone done this?


For Tongue and Groove pine, the lengths are generally random, like it is with hardwood flooring. Is is usually installed staggered, also like hardwood flooring.
Here is a short video about installing T&G on a flat ceiling. The concept is the same. Tho, they hand nail, you can use a finish nail gun: http://video.bobvila.com/m/21319568/tongue-and-groove-pine-porch-ceiling.htm


raghib said:


> ....Which width is better 4 6 or 8 inches.


That is up to you. It's a preference. I personlly like the 6" for a stained wood application. Just realize that, there are specific steps and things that you must do to prep stain and seal the wood, before installation. Will the room be heated or insulated? If not, you should seal all edges/sides of the boards and consider installing a vapor barrier behind it.



raghib said:


> ANY HELP would be greatly appreciated. I am a novice at building, but really like the look of the vaulted wood ceiling and want to put one in! thanks for the help


Good Luck.

FWIW: Here are some pics on one we installed on a room addition we built, last year. I made the decision here to use all 16' lengths. These were not easy to come by, since most lumber yards don't like to separate the longer lengths from the shorts (they are generally sold together). 
It took me four trips to different yards, to compile the amount of 16' stock needed:


----------



## raghib

*knotty pine ceiling*

THANK YOU> That was very helpful. especially about width size.

How did you "cut" and "piece" the ceiling together? Did you do it like a hardwood floor. Cut the length to various sizes and lay ends next to one another? We plan on blind nailing the wood up, therefore, plan on using t&g boards.

We will also be staining it prior to installing it, which should give it time to acclimate. Thanks for that heads up.

What did you use for crown molding, if any?


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

raghib said:


> How did you "cut" and "piece" the ceiling together? Did you do it like a hardwood floor. Cut the length to various sizes and lay ends next to one another?


Standard installation is laid out just like Hardwood flooring plank is staggered. If you are not sure about the exact method, do a web search on "_how to install hardwood flooring_".



raghib said:


> What did you use for crown molding, if any?


The standard stock for the border molding trim is 1x1 Pine. 
However, I chose to use a _bed-molding_, or a variation of bed-molding, since I wanted there to be more detail for this installation (We had also installed bead board wainscoting on the lower walls with chair rails, so this was not a rustic look)


----------



## raghib

The photos of the ceiling are AWESOME and exactly what I am shooting for:yes: 

Yes, the room has heat vents and and insullated ceiling. We want to use it year round. Since we live in Northern Ohio, insulation and heat vents were mandatory.

Thanks for help on length, that has been my nemesis. Trying to find any thing longer than 12' is "special order" and soars the cost to about $16 a BOARD---astronamically out of the question.

What steps need to be taken beside staining wood before putting it up. Is one stain better than another. I was looking at miniwax brand.

I do have a builder helping install this but he has never hung a wood ceiling. Hence, I am doing research!!!!!

learning on the job!


----------



## joed

Three tips for you. 
Paint the ceiling black first. Any missing knots and open joints won't show.
Use an air nailer. Your arm will fall off trying the hand nail all this wood upside down.
Finish the wood first.


----------



## Bob Mariani

Apply a pre-conditioner first. This helps with a more even staining job and eliminates the blotches. Then seal, scuff sand with 220 grit, two top coats. Minwax is crap. Go to a wood flooring supplier or installer and buy some good stuff. Anything you buy in a big box store is not quality. I use Mohawk stains


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

In addition to the wood conditioner, you must seal the knots with shellac, or they will bleed any stain or sealer applied to the surfaces.


----------



## raghib

Everyone is being very helpful!

Suggestions on brands for pre-conditioners, shellac (shellac BEFORE of AFTER conditioner?) Two top coats I presume refer to the stain. 

Time frame we're looking at to "treat" wood would be about 2-3 days?

How do you paint ceiling black when we are installing pine right on to beams. WHat kind of vapor shield is recommended. We do have insullation in the ceiling.

I did not notice a main center beam in the photos. Do you have one? No one at Home depot nor Lowes seemed to know. Unfortanately, our two "small store" lumber companies closed shop. ONly box stores nearby and a Carter Lumber. Adds more to why I am grateful for your blogs. Real answers!!


----------



## Winchester

I'm curious to know how you're insulating this and what use of a vapor barrier?

We moved into our current home a year ago last September and our 4-seasons room leaks air terribly! The thermal images taken by our Energy Auditor showed leaks from every joint and perimeter. At 10'x13' it has 2 heat ducts and a cold air return. It has a crawl space underneath that only has 1" foamboard on the foundation (needs an additional inch) while the rim joists need to have the fiberglass batts removed and sealed with caulk and/or foam.

Room is completely open to the adjoining room and has no doors. I think adding some french style doors will be my first resort to protecting the rest of the house from it's colder temperatures. If that doesn't work, I need to investigate if it even has a vapor barrier and/or insulation. Then it might be bye-bye to the pine, insulate properly, and up with the sheetrock.

Sorry for the highjack of your post but I will be watching for any added feedback as you continue.

Thanks. Best of luck. :thumbsup:


----------



## raghib

I am not sure the construction of your room. We added R30 insullation to the ceiling and the walls, tvek to the outside to the walls, and 2 heat vents since we also expanded the basement to go under the room.
No cold air return, figure the room we have it off is a large enough draw.
ONe thing we did look into prior to adding the 12X18 room though was the size and heating capacity of our current furnace-to make sure it could handle the extra room AND the vaulted ceiling. It is 12degrees plus windchill here today and the room (still waiting for ceiling and floor, and window trimming) is warm and don't feel drafts nor cold throughout rest of house. Needless to say the untrimmed windows do have gaps and cold air IS coming in through them!!! Lovely heat loss (sacrasm) but this will be eventually fixed with trim. We are going to add skylights as well PRIOR to adding wood to ceiling. Should have done it while constructing roof, we know, but it was an afterthought once we saw the "walled" room. Two skylights facing to the south will add light (and hopefully not too much HEAT in summer).

What type of windows do you have? Something else I investigated prior to ordering and installing. I went with double hung, low-e, thermal Anderson windows. They really seem to keep the cold out.

We will be installing double hung french doors as well, more to be able to separate the sunroom from the family room than as a heat maintaining device. Although we could use them as such.

OUr room is off the east side of our home so it also does not get much direct wind. The west side of our home does. that helps with heat loss prevention.

Back to my post questions....CONDITIONER/SEALER/SHELLAC SUGGESTIONS. Want to get lumber and get this ceiling started since it seems like it will take several days to condition/stain acclimate wood.


----------



## Winchester

raghib said:


> Needless to say the untrimmed windows do have gaps and cold air IS coming in through them!!! Lovely heat loss (sacrasm) but this will be eventually fixed with trim


I hope you mean that you'll be foaming these in and then trimming? Not just covering up?


> What type of windows do you have?


Double hung Pella windows is all I know. It's a preexisting 4-seasons room.


> Our room is off the east side of our home so it also does not get much direct wind. The west side of our home does. that helps with heat loss prevention.


House sits on a NW by SE axis and the 4-seasons room is centrally located on the width of the house and exposed on the norther side of the house. Hard to explain really but it gets the wind from the West, North, and East. I can be anywhere from 5-10 degrees cooler than from the adjacent room. Though the thermometer is located on an exterior wall...may have something to do with it but it is noticeably cooler once entering this room. More like a 3-season room if you ask me (sarcasm).

Thank you for your follow-up to my post. :thumbsup:


----------



## Onmyown

I am wondering if anyone could tell me how much to bid for a job for Tongue and Groove and 45 cut ceiling installation? I am trying to bid a job and I am not sure how to bid for it.  Thank you!


----------



## Bob Mariani

Onmyown said:


> I am wondering if anyone could tell me how much to bid for a job for Tongue and Groove and 45 cut ceiling installation? I am trying to bid a job and I am not sure how to bid for it.  Thank you!


figure 2.5 times what you would be installing it straight.


----------



## Onmyown

ok thank you very much! I wasnt sure how much to charge for it. I didnt want to overdo it either. Thanks again!


----------



## rtoni

nice pics - hope my job turns out half that sweet

but first, some dumb questions:

- you're starting from top and working down - vs bottom up - is this the standard approach or does it depend on other factors? is there any case where you'd start at the wall plate and work up to the peak?

- what do you do with the t&g at the point where the angle / bend is (where collar tie meets rafter) - do you just trim off the tongue where these boards meet - if so how do you (blind) nail it there?

thanks


----------



## APPLEO

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> For Tongue and Groove pine, the lengths are generally random, like it is with hardwood flooring. Is is usually installed staggered, also like hardwood flooring.
> Here is a short video about installing T&G on a flat ceiling. The concept is the same. Tho, they hand nail, you can use a finish nail gun: http://video.bobvila.com/m/21319568/tongue-and-groove-pine-porch-ceiling.htm
> 
> That is up to you. It's a preference. I personlly like the 6" for a stained wood application. Just realize that, there are specific steps and things that you must do to prep stain and seal the wood, before installation. Will the room be heated or insulated? If not, you should seal all edges/sides of the boards and consider installing a vapor barrier behind it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck.
> 
> FWIW: Here are some pics on one we installed on a room addition we built, last year. I made the decision here to use all 16' lengths. These were not easy to come by, since most lumber yards don't like to separate the longer lengths from the shorts (they are generally sold together).
> It took me four trips to different yards, to compile the amount of 16' stock needed:


Thanks for your photos...looks similiar to my current project. A few questions if you dont mind

1. What color and manufacturer of stain was used?
2. What is the color and manufactuer of topcoat?
3. My LUmberyard has thier boards stored outside here in upstate NY...winter humidity is 55%.....my room will be 3 season and is not presently heated but for a tiny space heater.........I see no need to acclimate boards .......Comment?
4. If I install boardss at 55% winter humidity will they buckle at 90 humidity next August?
5. Your wainscoat..did you install casing overtop...and route the casing backs...or did you install casing adjacent to wainscoat.

thanks for any tips...i plan to be sealing the knots, then stain, then 2 coats water base poly all sides

My ceiling is r30c insulated with kraft face..room is sheetrock over R16 kraft

appleo in upstate NY


----------



## cjweener

*C-girl newbie needs advice*

I love the look of this ceiling and would like to do the same thing in a cabin remodel. I am a DIY and need some detailed info. on how to finish the t & g pine boards. I plan on finishing all sides of the board before we install them. Could you give me a how-to on how to finish them to get the same look? Steps involved, number of coats recommended, actual products used. Thanks!!!


----------



## High Gear

Lots of good info here .

Sorry about the hijack but I've been contemplating doing a ceiling of one room in the basement.

Is drywall required first ??


----------



## Earnie

I have T&G pine boards for ninety percent of my upstairs ceiling. T&G will not seal air tight. Gaps will appear over time and can be seasonable. Be sure to install some type of air tight ceiling before installing the T&G boards. The pics show plastic but I'm sure you could also use drywall.


----------



## Rimshot65

To: Atlantic Builder... love the ceiling look... can you tell us the stain & shellac/varnish combo you used to get that look?
Many thanks!


----------



## rtoni

same question as RimShot65 - and also still interested in the "top down" vs "bottom up" question posted earlier in the thread....


----------



## Rimshot65

TO Rtoni....

From what I have read, you can start at the wall plate and work up to the top. I plan to do this myself. Then you are working with gravity as you move up and it should be easier and faster. A couple of suggestions though, that I have read. As you near the peak, say four or five feet before, start to measure off the end distances to the peak. You can then adjust the boards a bit, so if your boards are not squaring up nicely to the peak, you can still correct for it. The other point, was when you at your last board to the peak, you will likely have to cut it along the length to fit up there properly, and may have to face nail it. Then using the same principles, nail up the other side, face nail the last board, and then you could put a trim board (1x1 or 2x2) right down the middle. Or another T&G board into the peak with the face parallel to the floor.

Huge caution here... I haven't done this, merely what I have read, and I figure this will be my approach. 

Open to ideas, and would still love to hear from AtlanticBuilder on how he achieved that colour & finish!


----------



## ddawg16

Just an idle comment.....

This thread has some of the best and most accurate information I have seen recently......


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

Rimshot65 said:


> To: Atlantic Builder... love the ceiling look... can you tell us the stain & shellac/varnish combo you used to get that look?
> Many thanks!


Sorry, missed the several requests. Lately, I am on this site more, than I have had the time to be (in 2009 - 2011), though my free time is still very limited (often non-existent). 

Its a Minwax "Honey Oak". Make sure you seal all 4 sides, including cross-cut endgrains, prior to each board segment install.

Gotta get back to work now....


----------



## Snikosnitzo

*Board widt*

Board width question 

The board with is up to your liking
15’ high ceiling with 1x4 T&G will look tight with to many joints 
I think you should pick up a few pieces of deferent widths and temporarily put them up so you can get a better esthetic value 
After 40 years of home building 
I would go with the wider board 




raghib said:


> Hello,
> We are adding a new sunroom to our home and would like to put knotty pine on the vaulted ceiling. The room is 12WX18long. Ceiling is 15 foot high and walls are 10 foot high.
> I was hoping someone could give me some helpful information on installation. We don't want to pay expense of "pre-finished" so we thought we would go to a lumber yard to buy the knotty pine. I was interested if any one had any ideas on length size since the longest I can find is 12 foot long. Therefore we are going to have to cut and piece. Has anyone done this? Which width is better 4 6 or 8 inches.
> 
> ANY HELP would be greatly appreciated. I am a novice at building, but really like the look of the vaulted wood ceiling and want to put one in! thanks for the help


----------



## rtoni

RimShot - thanks for the additional info. I'm also going at this for the first time (have done some cheap cabin grade pine on walls, but never a vaulted ceiling).

Picking up on the advice from Atlantic re: sealing all sides of the wood. This seems to be the collective wisdom. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ (you guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know) but I have to ask - I put up thin pine t&g boards on the walls in my camp over 12 years ago without any finish on them at all - and they still look like the day I installed them. The camp would go from -20 or colder (unattended) to +20 deg c (70 F) and beyond on a regular basis, for years. 

Now, the stuff for my ceiling is a knotty pine 1x6 board, pre-finished at the mill with a whitewash / pickle stain on one side only. This stuff has an "end matched" t&g which apparently allows me to place end butt joints anywhere - e.g. between rafters. I figured it would be a while before I could attack this ceiling so I stacked the boards neatly in a few piles. Well, it's been sitting on the floor in the room for over 6 months now while I inch my way through another project. If I check it now every board I look at still looks perfect to me. Is this going to turn to crap when I nail it up? Once this ceiling is on we're throwing down some flooring and pretty much moving in, so the inside climate should be pretty consistent from then on. It's had 3 different seasons to acclimate and it hasn't cupped, warped, anything. So I'm kinda confused. 

Isn't this a good acid test for the material? 

Or is the finish on 1 side only actually worse than no finish at all? 

Did I mess up?


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

FWIW - Sealing all sides of the wood is more about protection from airborne moisture and humidity levels, than it is about fluctuations in seasonal temperatures.


----------



## mrgins

I've always gone from bottom to top. It's easier especially if you work alone and there is no advantage of going top to bottom that I know of


----------



## rtoni

Thanks all.

This is one of those topics I've googled to death and got pretty much a 50-50 split on opinions (finish, don't finish). 

My project is a 16x30 room, R36 insulation, vaulted ceiling, vapor barrier. A cabin / camp now but will be heated year round once finished. So I guess I can roll the dice and put it up as is (finished on one side) - or unstack a bit at a time - lay it out, seal the back, ends, etc. and then nail it up. 

Sorry for jumping on this thread - I wonder how the original poster finally made out with their project?


----------



## Rimshot65

To AtlanticBuilder, and all the rest of you too!

I am thinking about using a couple of coats of amber shellac... "supposedly" easy to apply and quick to dry, and would only need a light sand btwn coats.. I personally like the warmth of the 50's look...

Are there considerations I am overlooking?

Thanks for all your input!


----------



## rtoni

Hi RimShot 65 - I went with a "whitewash" (I think they also call this a pickle stain) on pine boards for a few reasons:
- brightens the room (which we want)
- doesn't hide the the natural grain of the wood
- nice compromise between rustic (me) and contemporary (wife) - I could live in a cedar box but...

That's probably not much help, but just tossing it in there FWIW - particularly the first point. I love the natural beauty of cedar, white/knotty/red pine - with or without a clear finish. But in our space even with a good amount of natural light coming in the top side is really dark - when I saw some samples of these boards from the mill I was sold. 

Now I just wish I knew enough to have insisted on getting them sealed all around  - although they did do a beautiful job on the exposed sides, IMHO .


----------

