# Bathtub Drain Leak Help!



## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Hello, this is my first post and I sure can use some help. 
Here is the scenario
My bathtub drain leaks at the seal around the shoe (the little elbow with the flange on it that is on the bottom of the tub that the drain screen in the tub screws into)but only at specific times and I have not been able to recreate the leak. 
It doesn't leak when the tub isn't being used
It doesn't leak when the shower is being used
It doesn't leak if I fill the tub with cold water and let it sit. 
It doesn't leak when I drain the tub.
It doesn't leak if I fill the tub with warm water and let it sit. 
It only leaks if one of my daughters or my wife takes a hot bath. 
There is no overflow screen in my tub so the only place it could be leaking from is the drain because I put a pan directly under the drain under the tub and it fills up with water. 
This is what I replaced so far...
I replaced the gasket that goes under the tub between the shoe and the tub bottom flange. 
I originally put another gasket inside the tub between the tub drain and the tub but it elevated the drain and the tub leaked. 
I then found out that was incorrect so I removed the gasket and used plummers putty. I ran the shower for a while. Bone Dry. I filled the tub with cold water and let it sit for an hour. Bone Dry. I drained the tub. Bone Dry. I thought I had it fixed. My daughter went up and took a hot bubble bath and when she was done I ran in the bathroom and checked the drain behind the tub and the pan I put under it just for safety had at least 16 ounces of water in it. I then unscrewed the drain and put alot more plummers putty around the drain hole and around the drain flange and screwed the drain back into the tub. I took a shower today and it was bone dry but I suspect as soon as somebody takes a hot bath its going to leak again. 
I checked for cracks in the tub. There are none. I even had my wife walk around the tub while it was filled up with water and the tub is completely solid with no cracks or movement. 
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!


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## Ltnicks (Nov 9, 2010)

on the underside of the tub, between the shoe and tub should be a rubber gasket, on the inside of the tub would be the flange that screws into the shoe this should have plumbers putty, are all these parts installed?


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Ltnicks said:


> on the underside of the tub, between the shoe and tub should be a rubber gasket, on the inside of the tub would be the flange that screws into the shoe this should have plumbers putty, are all these parts installed?


Yes to both. I put a new gasket between the shoe and the tub and the flange that screws into the shoe is sealed with plumbers putty. 
They are all installed and tight. Bottom of tub where the gasket goes is flat and smooth. Shoe flange is flat and smooth. 
The flange that screws into the shoe is loaded with plumbers putty and its seated into the tub perfectly. 
Also, the shoe is dead center to the drain hole in the tub.


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## Ltnicks (Nov 9, 2010)

I think we ruled out the drain.

you said it leaks when someone takes a bath, so to clarify do they take a bath or a shower?


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## LateralConcepts (Jun 6, 2010)

If you can take some pictures of the setup, that may help.


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## epson (Jul 28, 2010)

So far you did the most obvious drain fixes. I am assuming you cleaned out the old plumbers putty before you applied the new. The other thing you might try is to look at the actual drain when you unscrew it again to see if it has any hairline cracks or if it is dirty. If so you should replace it and see if that solves your problem. If this did not take care of the problem and the leak is still noticed you will have no choice but to call a professional because we are dealing with another type of leak causing element.


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## Ltnicks (Nov 9, 2010)

another common leak that I am trying to rule out is a leak in the shower valve escuchen. running the shower will not show the leak, but when someone takes a shower the water splashes off them and on the wall, run the shower splashing the plumbing wall then check to see if water leaked. if so then take off the escuchen and put a bead of silicone around the hole


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Ltnicks said:


> another common leak that I am trying to rule out is a leak in the shower valve escuchen. running the shower will not show the leak, but when someone takes a shower the water splashes off them and on the wall, run the shower splashing the plumbing wall then check to see if water leaked. if so then take off the escuchen and put a bead of silicone around the hole


 
Thanks for the replies so far. There is no leaks in the shower valves. 
When the tub is used for showering there is abaolutely no leaks whatsover anywhere. I even tried turning on the shower, pulling off the shower head (its on a flexible hose) and aiming it directly at the tiled wall and even directly into the drain and no leaks at all. Bone dry. 
The only time the tub drain leaks is when somebody takes a hot bath. 
I have tried to recreated it by filling the tub several times and letting it sit and then draining it and I can't get even a single drop of water to leak. 
I even had somebody standing and walking around in the tub while it was full. It didn't leak a drop. 
Also.. its positively leaking out of the tub drain because I put a baking pan underneath it and the pan had an inch of water in it after my daughter took a bath. Nothing else was wet. 
My tub has a large access door to get to all the plumbing so everything is very easily accessable. 
In case anybody asks.. my tub does not have a overflow drain and the spout where the water enters the tub is not leaking at all. The leak is coming from the drain under the tub and it only leaks when somebody takes a hot bath. If I had to guess.. I would say my tub is at least 40 years old. Its in great shape but its old. All the pipes that connecto to it are copper or standard steel threaded water pipes. It would be very easy to replace the entire shoe, threaded drain in the tub and the horizontal drain pipe connected to the vertical drain pipe but I don't want to make matters worse. I just can't figure out why it leaks only when a hot bath is being used. 
At first I thought it was this..
The plumbers putty wore out and when somebody took a hot bath the hot water would soften up the already worn out putty and cause a leak because the rubber gasket under the tub was shot too. 
So, I cleaned everything up nice, installed a new gasket and new plumbers putty. Bone dry for showers and after I filled the tub with cold water and let it sit for an hour. 
Then.. somebody took a hot bath. I ran upstairs afterwards and the pan I put under the drain shoe had at least 16 ounces of water in it. 
I unscrewed the drain and got out the plumbers putty and molded it around the drain opening in the tub (its a beveled hole down to the shoe) and I added a bunch more to the bezel around the drain cover itself and screwed it in. I whole bunch of putty squeezed out around the drain when I tightened it down. That was after midnight last night. I took a shower this morning and of course the pan was bone dry. When I get home tonight I will check after somebody takes a hot bath. If it leaks again I suppose I will need to replace the entire shoe, horizontal pipe and the drain in the tub. I am a little nervous replacing it though because my tub is so old and I am not sure if the new drains will fit properly. 
Go figure...


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

When someone tales a bath, is there a leak _*before*_ the drain's stopper is removed/opened? Or only once water is running down the drain?


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

BTW, the correct term for what you are calling a "shoe" is a "waste elbow", see for example: Replacement Parts for Brass Bathtub Drains.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Michael Thomas said:


> When someone tales a bath, is there a leak _*before*_ the drain's stopper is removed/opened? Or only once water is running down the drain?


Good question. I will check that out tonight. 
I know that when I filled the tub several times to check it it didn't leak at all whether the stopper was on or if the tub was draining. I let the tub sit full of water for over an hour and then drained it with not a single drop of water leaking. My daughter took a hot bath and directly after she got out I ran in the bathroom and checked it out and there was 16 ounces of water at least in the pan I put under the drain.


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## LateralConcepts (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm guessing it has something to do with the weight of a person in the tub while it's draining. Perhaps it's flexing the tub just enough so that the gasket isn't sealing.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

LateralConcepts said:


> I'm guessing it has something to do with the weight of a person in the tub while it's draining. Perhaps it's flexing the tub just enough so that the gasket isn't sealing.


I thought so too, thats why I had my wife and my daughter at 2 seperate occasions stand and walk around the tub when it was filled with water. No leaks at all. 
I think it has something to do with the hot water affecting the plumbers putty around the screw in drain in the tub.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

LateralConcepts said:


> I'm guessing it has something to do with the weight of a person in the tub while it's draining. Perhaps it's flexing the tub just enough so that the gasket isn't sealing.


+1
Just what I was thinking. If it's not a cast iron tub, is it set on a bed of cement/mortar? If not it sounds like the bottom is flexing during baths.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Homerepairguy said:


> +1
> Just what I was thinking. If it's not a cast iron tub, is it set on a bed of cement/mortar? If not it sounds like the bottom is flexing during baths.[/quote
> 
> Its a cast iron tub. Its set on a bed of mortar and it has reinforcement legs that extend out of all 4 corners that bolt to the floor. Its very secure and it doesn't appear to flex at all.
> ...


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

jgcable said:


> Its a cast iron tub. Its set on a bed of mortar and it has reinforcement legs that extend out of all 4 corners that bolt to the floor. Its very secure and it doesn't appear to flex at all.
> Its possible that I just didn't use enough plumbers putty the first time.
> The first time I rolled a nice 1/4" round tube of it and molded it round the screw in drain where the bezel meets the threaded area. It leaked.
> Last night I added another 1/$" round tube of it around the bezel and I took another 1/2" tube of it and molded it around the inside of the tub where the elbow meets the drain hole and molded it up towards the floor of the tub. I then screwed the drain in and a bunch of putty squeezed out. I wiped the excess off and took a shower. No leak as usual. The true test is when somebody takes a bath today. I have a catch pan under the drain just in case.


With that super tub setup then my next guess is that the leak is from the overflow, dripping down the overflow pipe and into your catch pan. It would make sense also that the leak only happens when your wife and child take baths. They probably fill to or close to the overflow and water movement during the baths is going into the overflow and leaking. Very interesting problem and will be watching this thread for your final fix since I'll be replacing a tub soon.

HRG


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Homerepairguy said:


> With that super tub setup then my next guess is that the leak is from the overflow, dripping down the overflow pipe and into your catch pan. It would make sense also that the leak only happens when your wife and child take baths. They probably fill to or close to the overflow and water movement during the baths is going into the overflow and leaking. Very interesting problem and will be watching this thread for your final fix since I'll be replacing a tub soon.
> 
> HRG


My tub does not have an overflow in the tub. The only things in my tub are the single faucet which is fairly high on the side of the tub and the drain. 

I tried splashing water and even submerging the faucet in water to see if it would leak. Not a drop. The only place my tub is leaking is from the elbow that the drain screws into. I assumed by replacing the gasket under the tub and new plumbers putty inside the tub and the fact that my drain elbow is perfectly lined up with the drain hole in the tub and the flange under it that the leak would be fixed. Nope.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

I would have called a plumber if I could afford to pay one but thats not an option at this time so I need to figure out this one on my own. Doesn't seem complicated. Just frustrating. At least I have full access to all the pipes involved.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Try using silicone caulk instead of putty. Also, check the brass pipe that screws into the shoe. I've seen those threads leak before.
Did you splash water on the tub surround? Could be water comming down the back side and dripping off the shoe


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> Try using silicone caulk instead of putty. Also, check the brass pipe that screws into the shoe. I've seen those threads leak before.
> Did you splash water on the tub surround? Could be water comming down the back side and dripping off the shoe


Took the drain out, put a ton of plumbers putty in it and screwed it back down. 5 showers... not a drop of water. 
1 hot bath and I have about 10 ounces of water that leaked from the drain elboh into a baking pan I put beneath it. 
I guess I have no other choice but to replace the entire drain, elbow and horizontal pipe that connects to the vertical drain. 
What a drag.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Should I try silicone instead of plumbers putty as one last ditch effort? 
I am thinking I need to replace the screw in drain, the elbow it screws into and the horizontal pipe. Hopefully I can find something that will tie into my existing pipe.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

My existing drain is old. Its brass. It sits flush with the bottom of the tub. It didn't have a gasket under it. Instead, it was sealed with plumbers putty. The underside of my tub had a gasket between the elbow and the bottom of the tub but the original gasket that was in there was a different style than what is currently available. The original gasket was more form fitted to the bottom of the tub and it extended up into the drain hole of the tub a little. I had a bear of a time prying it out. The replacement gasket is just a flat rubber gasket. Its the correct size but I thought I would just mention it. 
I have had this apart so many times that I really think the water is leaking through the seam between the drain edge in the tub. I checked the local Home Depot and they have new style drains but they are recessed, mainly chrome plated plastic and they all have a very thin gasket under the drain that goes between the drain and the bottom of the tub in addition to the rubber gasket that goes under the tub. 
They sell those thin gaskets seperately. 
Would this work: 
Buy the thin gasket and a tube of 100% silicone. 
Unscrew the existing drain and clean off all the plumbers putty I put on it and the drain opening in the tub. 
Put a nice thick bead of 100% silicone around the drain opening in the tub. 
Put a nice bead of silicone around the screw in tub drain.
Install the thin gasket on the screw in tub drain.
Put another bead of silicone on the bottom side of this thin gasket
Screw the drain in and wipe off the excess and let it dry overnight. 
How could it possibly leak after that!!! 

Either I do that or I try replacing the entire drain assembly and elbow and hope that it doesn't leak.


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## Ltnicks (Nov 9, 2010)

Michael Thomas said:


> When someone tales a bath, is there a leak _*before*_ the drain's stopper is removed/opened? Or only once water is running down the drain?


 
did you rule this out?


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Ltnicks said:


> did you rule this out?


yes, it leaks as the water is draining. The water has to be hot though. 
If I fill the tub with cold water I could fill and drain it 5 times in a row and it doesn't leak a drop of water. It doesn't leak with luke warm water either. It needs to be hot and its only when the tub is used for a bath. 
Showers do not leak at all.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

jgcable said:


> yes, it leaks as the water is draining. The water has to be hot though.
> If I fill the tub with cold water I could fill and drain it 5 times in a row and it doesn't leak a drop of water. It doesn't leak with luke warm water either. It needs to be hot and its only when the tub is used for a bath.
> Showers do not leak at all.



OK, that helps.

Likely 1) there is a "hairline" crack in the waste elbow or the length of pipe that screws into it which opens as it expands when heated or 2) there is a leak at the screw connection of the waste elbow which does the same.

Likely, it is also leaking when you take a hot shower, but the leakage is too slight to easily detect.

If you have not yet spotted the leak location it may be on the back or underside of a component and not readily visible, in these cases I use inexpensive "inspection mirror" with a tilting, lighted head:










- Ullman Devices (ULLHTK2LT) Rectangular Inspection Mirror with Three Rotating Lights

if I can not get the mirror into position, I try a micro-inspection camera.

(Disclaimer: I don't work for Amazon or Ullman Devices)


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Michael Thomas said:


> OK, that helps.
> 
> Likely 1) there is a "hairline" crack in the waste elbow or the length of pipe that screws into it which opens as it expands when heated or 2) there is a leak at the screw connection of the waste elbow which does the same.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I will check that out tonight. I assumed it was leaking from the seal. I had the elbow and pipe off and with me when I went to HD to get the parts and I didn't see any cracks or splits but maybe they are hairline. 
Thanks! JG


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Wherever the leak is located, since you are getting substantial leakage, is should be possible to spot the leak if you can get a sight-line to it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Late coming into this thread but it sounds like the elbow is the likely culprit. I would just replace the entire assembly if possible. How is it that your tub does not have an overflow? Is it possible to post some pictures of the tub and drain underneath? It sounds pretty unusual.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

I found the leak!!! Finally. 
I got home last night and my daughter had taken a bath. There was at least a quart of water in the catch pan I put under the drain so I filled the tup with hot water only and watched it for 45 minutes. I had my daughter stand in it. No leaks. I drained it. No leaks. 
I then filled it again but this time I had my daughter and my wife stand in it. I watched. No leaks at all. 
They then started joking around and the water started sloshing back and forth in the tub. I noticed a drip! 
It was coming from the hole where the water faucet goes through. The reason I didn't see it before is when the tub would leak I would never see any wetness on the side wall of the tub where the faucet pipe pokes through. 
What was happening was this. 
1. my daughters and my wife weren't being truthful. They told me the water never got up near the faucet in the tub. When I found the leak they came clean and told me that sometimes there is so much water in the tub the faucet is submerged!!
2. When the faucet was submerged the water would steadily stream out of a hole in the silicone around the faucet flange. There was a little protrusion of silicone that acted like a little ramp that the water would flow over and drop directly into the catch pan and not hit any pipes or the side of the tub. When the faucet was not totally submerged it would leak a little from the water splashing in the tub back and forth. Obviously, when the shower was used the water never got to that hole and it wouldn't leak. 
I unscrewed the faucet and backed off the threaded "washer" outside of the tub and went to Home Depot and bought 2 sheets of gasket material and a tube of 100% silicone. I cut 2 round gaskets, covered them in silicone and installed one inside the faucet flange in the tub and the other one between the threaded washer and the side of the tub and tightened everything up. The threaded washer has 3 nubs on it that I assume are for tightening it. I tightened it up by hand and this sandwiched the silicone covered gasket between the outside of the tub wall and the threaded washer. I then tightened up the faucet in the tub by hand sandwiching the silicone and the gasket between the faucet and the inside wall of the tub. 
I had to make my own gaskets and use alot of silicone because they didn't have round rubber gaskets large enough and the hole in the side of my tub had a little corrosion on it. I think I have it repaired for good now!


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Glad to hear it, and thanks for the followup!


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Faucet is submerged???? Sounds to me like somebody did a No NO and I am surprised it has not been pointed out yet. Is this faucet in the spot your Overflow should be? If so you are risking cross contamination of your water system. You should put the faucet in the proper space. If you have a phot I would be able to confirm it for you if you want


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## Ltnicks (Nov 9, 2010)

Docwhitley said:


> Faucet is submerged???? Sounds to me like somebody did a No NO and I am surprised it has not been pointed out yet. Is this faucet in the spot your Overflow should be? If so you are risking cross contamination of your water system. You should put the faucet in the proper space. If you have a phot I would be able to confirm it for you if you want


 
 please post a photo!


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Docwhitley said:


> Faucet is submerged???? Sounds to me like somebody did a No NO and I am surprised it has not been pointed out yet. Is this faucet in the spot your Overflow should be? If so you are risking cross contamination of your water system. You should put the faucet in the proper space. If you have a phot I would be able to confirm it for you if you want


+1
If the faucet is in the hole where the overflow should be that explains why there isn't an overflow. Bathtub faucets should always be installed through the tile "above" the rim of the tub. If tub water can reach the faucet opening then you are risking a very serious health problem which can lead to thousand of dollars of medical bills. Spend the money to install the faucet(s) correctly asap.

HRG


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Homerepairguy said:


> +1
> If the faucet is in the hole where the overflow should be that explains why you don't have an overflow. Bathtub faucets should always be installed through the tile "above" the rim of the tub. If tub water can reach the faucet opening then you are risking a very serious health problem which can lead to thousand of dollars of medical bills. Spend the money to install the faucet(s) correctly asap.
> 
> HRG


Now HRG I received a PM that said I was just trying to scare people... So thank you for pointing out they could get sick  Would I be wrong to say that they could even die from some of the illnesses they can receive from this situation?


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Homerepairguy said:


> +1
> If the faucet is in the hole where the overflow should be that explains why you don't have an overflow. Bathtub faucets should always be installed through the tile "above" the rim of the tub. If tub water can reach the faucet opening then you are risking a very serious health problem which can lead to thousand of dollars of medical bills. Spend the money to install the faucet(s) correctly asap.
> 
> HRG


My tub and all the fixtures and plumbing is at least 50 years old. My tub only has 2 holes in it. One for the drain and one for the faucet. There is no overflow. I suppose that the faucet could have been installed in in the overflow hole and that it should have been cut into the wall above the tub but it has been this way for at least 50 years now.


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

jgcable said:


> My tub and all the fixtures and plumbing is at least 50 years old. My tub only has 2 holes in it. One for the drain and one for the faucet. There is no overflow. I suppose that the faucet could have been installed in in the overflow hole and that it should have been cut into the wall above the tub but it has been this way for at least 50 years now.



Well they tried to be nice so lets give you a couple of real life scenarios
1- Bathing a child and they pee in the tub
2- Wash dog poop off of your foot in the tub
3- Pour chemicals in the tub
4- Take a bath after working around hazardous chemicals
5- Take a bath after rubbing against me and I was working with Hazardous chemicals
6- Not getting yourself 100% clean after doing a Number two

If that is not enough try this... Tonight after you are done bathing scoop up a cup of your bath water and ask if anyone in your house would like to drink it.. Then go to your neighbors and ask them also...

It was done over 50 years ago and it is wrong! That hole is an overflow and needs to be corrected. Every time that you allow the water to hit that faucet you are allowing the water that you drink to be contaminated and eventually bacteria will grow in those pipes. So please make the correction. Replace the Drain with a waste and overflow assembly and install the faucet behind the wall where it belongs

100 years ago a Loblolly would toss Hot Tar on a wound or amputated limb to get it to stop bleeding.... Let us learn from the mistakes of our ancestors not continue to allow them to happen with the phrase "That is the way they use to do it"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I have got to see a picture of this tub. Please!


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Jim F said:


> I have got to see a picture of this tub. Please!



Jim we see them all of the time in this area and the Health Department has actually given notice to people they could not in habit or rent out the apartments till it is fixed. It is seriously a health risk to him and can even contaminate a citys water supply from what they were telling me. If he will not post a picture just go into your bathroom and picture a nozzle coming out of the overflow. instead of the wall. 2 Problems 1- the contamination of Drinking water 2- If the valves for the tub were to fail and the tub was not draining for what ever reason the water would flow over the top of the tub


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Docwhitley said:


> Now HRG I received a PM that said I was just trying to scare people... So thank you for pointing out they could get sick  Would I be wrong to say that they could even die from some of the illnesses they can receive from this situation?


No, you would not be wrong and yes, folks can die from backflow into their potable water system. Even worse neighbors will be affected if the backfow goes into the city water system. That can happen if the tub is filled to the spout level and there is a water main break. Water from the tub can be sucked back into the city's water system contaminating it.

This is why code "requires" backflow preventers any time external water can be sucked back into the potable water system. Anyone can check water sprinkler or drip irrigation installation to see all the warnings about contaminated water being sucked back into the potable water system possibly resulting in serious health problems or even death.

HRG


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

The standard reference for "backflow" prevention, the EPA "Cross-Connection Control Manual", makes for interesting reading, in a macabre sort of way, for example:

_"City water and plumbing officials said that they did not think
that the blood contamination had spread beyond the building,
however, inspectors were sent into the neighborhood to check
for possible contamination. The chief plumbing inspector had
received a telephone call advising that blood was coming from 
drinking fountains within the building. Plumbing and county health
department inspectors went to the scene dnd found evidence
that the blood had been circulating in the water system within the
building."_

- Cross-Connection Control Manual

Which, apparently, residents of the building found somewhat annoying.

So, yes: cross contamination of domestic water supplies can be a very serious problem.

As for "50 years with no problems": "Past performance does not guarantee future results".


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## Work4living (Nov 28, 2010)

I think the tub you are talking about is a Crane valve. American Standard made one too. Is this a 3 handle valve, Hot, Cold, and the middle is to activate the Drain. You probably have another single or two handle valve above it to work the shower. Your leak is most likely the tub spout, there is a nut on the back side of the tub that will need tightening. Believe me on this, tightening this nut is not easy and usually results in the destruction if the valve. 

I agree Cross contamination is a major concern. *It does not constitute telling someone to rip apart their pre existing bathroom to come into compliance with todays code!!!! *Remodeling your bathroom can be expensive.

Measure how far up your Handles are from the flood rim of the tub.

PLEASE POST A PIC AS IT WILL HELP WITH EVERYTHING HERE.


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Work4living said:


> I think the tub you are talking about is a Crane valve. American Standard made one too. Is this a 3 handle valve, Hot, Cold, and the middle is to activate the Drain. You probably have another single or two handle valve above it to work the shower. Your leak is most likely the tub spout, there is a nut on the back side of the tub that will need tightening. Believe me on this, tightening this nut is not easy and usually results in the destruction if the valve.
> 
> I agree Cross contamination is a major concern. *It does not constitute telling someone to rip apart their pre existing bathroom to come into compliance with todays code!!!! *Remodeling your bathroom can be expensive.
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight... I just want to make sure I understand for I throw my hands up and run away from the DIY forum for a forum that makes sense

1- The home owner states that the faucet is in the overflow hole
2- This is in direct violation of Plumbing and Health codes
3- He states that it leaks frequently when the water is above that nozzle
4- We are telling him he should repair the problem in other words remove the nozzle and run it through the wall above the tub and put in a proper waste and over flow
and you are saying in round about terms "forget that it is wrong and hazardous to your life and can make everyone in your family sick just tighten the nut that is not leaking because that will fix your problem" Please read the entire thread next time and you will see it is leaking when the water is off and the water is above the nozzle which is when cross contamination is already occurring. If you really feel this is OK advice than is it also Ok to drink out of the toilet if you just flushed it?

To the original Poster you need to correct this problem and this is coming from the bottom of my heart. I can not tell you the number of diseases and illnesses that can be passed or caused because of the cross contamination. Again I want to see a Picture but, from what you are telling me it is coming through the Over flow and this is a stupid mistake that plumbers did way back to avoid drilling in a wall because they thought it looked good.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Work4living said:


> I agree Cross contamination is a major concern. *It does not constitute telling someone to rip apart their pre existing bathroom to come into compliance with todays code!!!! *Remodeling your bathroom can be expensive.


For me, remodeling expense does not come into play. Why risk major health problems or death when there is a known problem even if it is grandfathered? Especially when the problem can affect neighbors. If the OP does not want to spend the money to correct the problem, at the very least, I hope the OP installs a backflow preventer in the main input water line so only his own potable water can become contaminated and not the city's water supply.

When it was not known, asbestos and lead were used in homes and cars. Now that they are proven to cause cancer and other health problems should people continue to live with the hazard just because they are already installed? Doesn't make any sense to me.

HRG


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Homerepairguy said:


> For me, remodeling expense does not come into play. Why risk major health problems or death when there is a known problem even if it is grandfathered? Especially when the problem can affect neighbors. If the OP does not want to spend the money to correct the problem, at the very least, I hope the OP installs a backflow preventer in the main input water line so only his own potable water can become contaminated and not the city's water supply.
> 
> When it was not known, asbestos and lead were used in homes and cars. Now that they are proven to cause cancer and other health problems should people continue to live with the hazard just because they are already installed? Doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> HRG



All I keep thinking is a Quote by Mike Holmes that I like and believe in "Code is the Bare minimum that is allowed by law" Bare minimum WOW! Hmmmm I love to look at my friends when I am doing work for them and they say is that what the code is and I say "No, This is what I require because I want to walk away feeling good" When you strive for code you strive for the lowest level you should ever be look to go above and beyond code when ever you know it is possible


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## Work4living (Nov 28, 2010)

Doc,

I understand what you are saying. I am telling you that he may not be able to simply remove this as you are asking him to do.....These were specific installations and of course met code when they were installed 50 years ago. There is alot of brass and the tub drain is quite complicated in the wall....If the handles are only 3 inches above the flood rim, as in most cases i have encountered with this type of valve and installation. Then the choice is repair or full replacement of the tub walls Usually ceramic tile floor to ceiling, and depending on the condition of the tub, then you are talking a full blown remodel. How can you raise a spout if the valve cant be elevated because of the linkages to the drain? So again I say the simplest solution is repair, or I guess we tell him, dont use the fixture for bathing, use it for showering only.

I agree, with you on the code....It is bare minimum I strive to exceed code myself. I too have a great sense of conscience, and always try to do no harm, and also harm no others....I have to sleep at night, and like sleeping soundly. 

I am merely saying that you as well as I am unaware of the OP's financial situation.....Remodeling a bathtub will cost approx 2K....Bathroom, at least 5-6K this may be a number no where near affordable in this economy. 

This is one of the reasons why the grandfather clause exists. 

My real gut tells me, like yours that replacement is really the right thing to do.....i am telling you that if it is the valve I think it is replacement of the valve is not an easy scenario. So we are back at my point what are the options?

1. If you are money strapped, then you need to repair to the best you can.
2. If you have the money then lets end the debate and replace the fixture through a professional.



Everyone wants to take the cross connection road which I do agree with. but considering that 50% of housing existed before the anti-siphon code both for inside and outside. Are we telling everyone that they have to have them ripped off of their walls and replaced with the correct faucet & fixture now.


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## Docwhitley (Jul 19, 2010)

Work4living said:


> Doc,
> 
> I understand what you are saying. I am telling you that he may not be able to simply remove this as you are asking him to do.....These were specific installations and of course met code when they were installed 50 years ago. There is alot of brass and the tub drain is quite complicated in the wall....If the handles are only 3 inches above the flood rim, as in most cases i have encountered with this type of valve and installation. Then the choice is repair or full replacement of the tub walls Usually ceramic tile floor to ceiling, and depending on the condition of the tub, then you are talking a full blown remodel. How can you raise a spout if the valve cant be elevated because of the linkages to the drain? So again I say the simplest solution is repair, or I guess we tell him, dont use the fixture for bathing, use it for showering only.


Cut an access in the wall behind the shower 
Re pipe the diverter at a higher level
To me the health of my family is worth more than a couple of dollars


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

3) Use the shower only, with the drain open.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

I am so surprised that my tub plumbing is installed wrong for over the last 50 years. 
I had the house inspected twice and that included plumbing and they found nothing wrong with the bathroom plumbing. It makes total sense what you guys are saying though. 
Showers and low water level baths until I can fix it!


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

Just to be a little clearer.. my tub faucet is about 6" from the top edge of the tub but it is still in the tub. My shower diverter and knobs are about 6" above the edge of the tub coming out of my tiled wall.


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Something does not compute. Previously you said that your tub only has 2 holes in it. One for the drain and one for the faucet:


jgcable said:


> My tub and all the fixtures and plumbing is at least 50 years old. My tub only has 2 holes in it. One for the drain and one for the faucet. There is no overflow. I suppose that the faucet could have been installed in in the overflow hole and that it should have been cut into the wall above the tub but it has been this way for at least 50 years now.


Now you say that the tub faucet is about 6" from the top edge of the tub: 


jgcable said:


> Just to be a little clearer.. my tub faucet is about 6" from the top edge of the tub but it is still in the tub. My shower diverter and knobs are about 6" above the edge of the tub coming out of my tiled wall.


Maybe some terminology needs to be cleared up. 









In the picture above, the pocket knife's screwdriver is going into the hot water "faucet". The water "spout" is shown below that coming out of the tile wall. The rim of the tub is below the spout.

So is your tub "spout" installed in the hole for the overflow or is it installed 6" above the top rim of the tub?
Maybe that's why folks have been begging for a picture.

If your spout is below the rim of your tub, there is a way to correct your contamination backflow problem at minimal expense. Setup a spout that goes up and has the mouth of the spout above the rim of your tub like this picture:









This picture shows the faucets mounted in the tub but since only your spout appears to be mounted in your tub, maybe you can gather fittings to raise the mouth of your spout above the rim of the tub as shown.

HRG


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

The OP said in a previous post that the faucet was installed in the opening normally used for the tub overflow.


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## jgcable (Dec 14, 2010)

for some reason I can't post pictures on this forum. Every other forum I have no problem. Here is a link to a pic of my tub. 
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/jgcable/IMG00116-20101219-1311.jpg


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## Homerepairguy (Aug 1, 2010)

jgcable said:


> for some reason I can't post pictures on this forum. Every other forum I have no problem. Here is a link to a pic of my tub.
> http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/jgcable/IMG00116-20101219-1311.jpg


Here's your picture:









To insert it into this post I 
Right clicked your picture > Copy image location > In this reply I clicked the "Insert Image" icon (looks like a mountain with a yellow background) > pressed ctrl-V to paste the image location into the text box > pressed Enter.

I see now that what you meant is that your spout is 6 inches "below" the rim of your tub. Looks like setting up a new spout that goes up and above the rim of your tub is the least expensive way to solve your back-flow problem. Maybe a plumbing supply can help you gather the hardware to do the job.

EDIT: Stopping leaks where the spout exits the overflow hole will be a challenge though. If the plumbing supply does not have a solution to insure no leakage and your spout connection has pipe threads, here's a solution that might work:

1. Have a round stainless steel plate made with a hole "just" big enough for the spout's pipe. The less slop the better.
2. Clean the tub around the overflow hole really well.
3. Insert the spout's pipe through the hole in the stainless steel plate and screw the spout into the spout connection.
4. Apply clear aquarium grade silicone to the back of the plate and stick it to the tub. Clean the excess and let it dry.
5. Apply a bead of silicone around joint of the pipe and the stainless steel plate.

Silicone is very good at sealing water and is very flexible so will not crack. If you want to make it look better, you might be able to get a new chrome cover for the overflow that looks like a jar lid. Make the diameter of the stainless steel plate small enough to fit within the cover. Slide that cover on the spout's pipe first, then the plate. Do the steps above and for step-6, silicone the cover over the plate.

Best of luck,
HRG


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

At bit clearer:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

thanks for posting the pic. That does clear things up a bit. That spout is coming out where the overflow should be. Is that actually a hose bib? It is hard to tell from the pic. If it is, you could rig something up with a hose coupline to make it come up above the tub to make it safe from cross contamination.

If you have the budget, you could do a plumbing remodel. Buy a drain and overflow assembly and raise that spout up above the tub rim just below the valves. You could screw a short nipple into that spout drop below the diverter valve and drill a new hole 3/4-1 inch diameter carefully with a diamond hole saw through the tile that will meet a the new elbow and nipple. All provided you have access in the wall behind the tub plumbing.


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