# More on Mices



## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

I have a question about mouse poison. 

I've had mouse problems before (another time, another place) and ended up using poison on the little bastards. I noticed, however, that after they ingest the poison, they continue to try to live their lives until they finally fall over wherever they are and die. They become real slow and stupid and a two year-old could catch them by hand. 

I now have mice living in my ceiling. I do have cats that do a wonderful job (when they can get at them), but I live in a log cabin and the bastards run along the logs, over the door frames, hide behind the paintings, and scoot through gaps in the walls between rooms. It's very hard for the cats to even get at them, but they do try... have you ever seen a cat climb the wall?

My question is with secondary ingestion of poison. If a mouse eats it, slows down and becomes easy enough for the cat to catch, will this also poison the cat? I'm sure it will, so I've haven't used any poison. How many poisoned mice does a cat have to eat before it too starts to hemorrhage internally? I just spent $7000.00 on a new roof and insulation and already I can see daylight through the ceiling when I remove the flange for the stove pipe! 

Are there poisons that are "safe" for secondary consumption?


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## leezarrd (Aug 12, 2007)

Poisons do not know when to stop killing.

Have you tried those no-kill mouse traps? Those "mice-cubes" have worked for us. They even have some that you wind up and lots of mice can go in. Not that I am advocating this :whistling2:, but a friend of mine used one, it filled with mice, she took it outside, opened it up and her cats went crazy!

Is there no way to figure out where they are coming in and plug up the holes? ....which are also letting in cold air!


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

sealing up is kind of the only solution when it come to mouse.... unfortunately... I had experience where a trap catched 3 mouses and there are still penty outside the traps parting... the 3 probably consider - what's that called somthing like "collectoral damage"..etc. a word from the movie play by the "terminator"....


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## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

"Poisons do not know when to stop killing." Ya, that's kinda what I thought.

I've tried live traps and they work really well. I once caught 5 mice at once. They were jammed in like sardines. But they seem to lose interest in them after a while and so I take them away and put them out again in a couple of weeks. the problem is that by then there are more new mice than I originally got rid of!

As for plugging up holes... that would be next to impossible here. Its a 70 year old log cabin on a cement footing over bare ground. The footing itself is about a foot deep, so that's not a problem but there is an addition that is just set on pressure treated 4x4s - why they didn't poor a footer, I don't know...

There are gaps all over the place. I was thinking maybe I could fill in what I can find and then blow in some new insulation to replace what they've shredded and that might smother the ones that are already inside?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

In that case, I would think you kind of have only one choice: get more cats, not 1, not 2, but 4 or 5 or more.....

once there so many cats, the mouse will not think your place is a mice hotel no more...


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## Dutch1962 (Oct 5, 2007)

They do make rodent poisons that have little or no secondary effect. IT may go by different names but here you can get it under the name Talon. Your best bet for finding it would be a feed store as Lowes and the like probabbly would'nt carry it. Most mouse poisons are anti coagulants. (the mouse simply hemorrages and bleeds to death) The wind up traps or 'ketch alls' they are called sound to me like a good bet for you. After you rid the mice you should go about sealing up where ever you can. 

If you can't find the specific bait you need try calling a local zoo or simular place-more than likely they use the same product you'll need and may be able to direct you.
for info on mice and maybe some better tips try. http://pestcemetery.com/?cat=12

Hope it helps.


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## ptjohnson (Nov 18, 2007)

*Getting rid of mice*

We had a mouse problem last winter. We have three cats but they couldn't get at the mice who were running along behind the kitchen cabinets, getting into drawers and the cabinets. We tried live traps and caught many mice, however we soon became convinced we were catching and releasing the same mice. They went away during early spring, but later they were back. We hired an exterminator who explained that if we use poison, they may die where we can't get at them and the place would stink to high heaven. So we opted for kill traps. I paid the exterminator $200 for 14 mouse traps (don't I feel stupid now!) but they worked. We caught/killed about a dozen mice and haven't had any for 3 or 4 months now. I hate the thought of killing any animal but I think the kill traps are kinder, rather than using poison that would be agony for the mice. Just kill them and be done with it. Important to note, we did not bait the traps, just placed them where the mice ran along the back of the cabinets, in the cellar and the garage.


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## End Grain (Nov 17, 2007)

Years back in NYC, there was a mouse and rat poison called Mouse Nots (if my middle-aged memory still serves me correctly) that once ingested, caused the rodent to go into a frenzy for water as it was literally burning them up from the inide out very quickly. The idea was no dead mouse/rat carcass left to stink up the joint. A place I worked at way back when tried it. Well, it was very effective. So much so that the mice/rats gnawed straight through pipes in the walls to get at water in a futile dying attempt to stop the poison from killing them. It surely got rid of the rodent population in quick time but it also caused the company thousands of dollars worth of very serious plumbing, floor and drywall repairs on the back end. Needless to say, that was the end of that approach towards controlling the rodents. Cats were brought in for two weeks while repairs were being made. After that episode, they went to glue boards for the mice and traditional poison food pellets in small plastic bags for the rats.


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## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks to all for your ideas. Although I know I can't effectively seal them all, I will try blocking up what holes I can. My cats have caught about four this week, plus three in traps. Myself, I take the traps out to a hay field about a mile from any houses and let them go. My brothers, however (big hunters who come out every Nov.), think it's more entertaining to let them go in the yard, surrounded by cats.

I'll call around to feed stores and such as well for poison ideas. I don't like killing them either - they're only doing what they're wired to do, just like us. 

Why can't we all just get along...


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## Dusty (Aug 9, 2006)

I asked my vet about this last year when I moved into a new to me house and discovered mice. I have a dog (35 lb) and had the same concerns with using poison. He told me the type of poison I was using (from an exterminator) which causes dehydration might make my dog a little sick but wouldn't be a big deal unless she ate a lot of mice. As it turned out the dog didn't even turn her head when one marched across the floor right in front of her. He was specific in asking me to tell him exactly which poison I was using so there must be differences. Meanwhile he told me the bigger concern would be the dog getting bitten by some mice which really sent some fear into me.

Meanwhile, this poison I have is apparently much better and faster (more humane if you can even think of poison as humane) than the regular store variety. It also is sold in larger pellets which means it's really easy to see when it's had some action. Basically I was told one munch and the mouse was a goner and would meet it's maker within a few hours rather than the couple of feedings and days it takes with the anticoagulant variety. Also because of the dehydration there is no lingering anything if they go into the walls to die. You can also get child/pet proof bait stations to hold them.

If you can stand a description, I realized this fall something was back (saw some knawing on a pellet). Later that night I noticed the light flashing on my trap that zaps the little creeps (it is about 2' away from the pellet) so something was in there that hadn't been earlier in the day. When I went to empty it the body looked like it had been there forever. This is not how others in that trap have looked I can tell you. This one was basically dry and flat so whatever had happened to it was rapid in the way it seemed to be decayed.

So the pellets really do work well and I can't say I've actually found or detected any other remains at all other than the ones that wandered into that trap.

BTW studies done on mice show if you release them it had better be more than a mile away or they just come back. They have a very strong homing instinct. My attitude after being an animal lover and anti-violent is that it no longer applies to mice. If they come in my house I will do my best to kill them, no guilt.

Also, if this helps, when it seemed they were coming back in this year I called the exterminator who had sold me the bait, to come and simply inspect my house for entrances. He checked my exterior and interior and it was nice having his trained eye. I thought I had filled everything and I had except I missed a couple of other things. He told me they will jump 2' if they detect heat. So a natural entrance is a dryer vent. This is normally the only external vent which doesn't have a wire cover (usually a fire law as lint can get trapped) but they will push open the louvers and run down the vent and out the bottom of the dryer. So fire law or not, I built a stiff wire mesh cover from some mesh I got at a HVAC supply store which I can remove and clean if I see a lint buildup. It never dawned on me they would push open the louvers.

He told me they will push any vinyl or plastic (like soffats) so if they are running up downspouts you have to look for where they have been pushing through to gain access under the roof. Luckily mine weren't going up high and apparently they won't very often.

You do have to look for any hole bigger than a pencil. An adult will easily get into a hole the size of a dime and when the mice are actively going in and out (apparently they do that), you have to seal the holes with copper mesh as they will just eat through caulk or other materials they detect over their entrances but they hate metal mesh (and copper won't rust).

The real surprise for me was he said they were probably coming in my back door (gads of all places...I'm plugging cracks and they are using the door?). Now that door is air tight and I can't fit the tip of my little finger between the door and frame but he said they could push the weather stripping and come in. So I added some wire mesh to the door to extend over the opening to the trim. It's a bit icky, but anything to keep the creeps out. Sure enough, within a day or so I noticed a hole chewed in the sweep on my storm door. I guess a rodent was coming in, got blocked by my wire and since the sweep only swings one way, it had to chew a hole to get out. It stunned me that they had been using that door I can tell you. Since then, not one new visitor.

If you have an exterminator around do go in and have a chat with them. They often sell their products as a separate business and I learned a lot from a visit to their office last year. Also just paying for the inspection saved me some money and solved my problem. It was about $90 although prices may differ where you are. For $250 they would come out and find the entrances, block them, and bait and lay traps. That's still a good price IMO to have it taken care of and prevent any more damage to the house.

Fingers crossed for you to be rid of the little creeps and their filth.


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## johnny331 (May 29, 2007)

You know I was always told a mouse could fit through a hole the size of a dime... 

This never really amazed me until a few weeks ago, I was working in the garage, drinking a bottled beer. Didn't finish a beer and didn't cleanup after myself...

To my astonishment, the next day the beer bottle was still upright, and somehow a rather large mouse managed to climb INTO the bottle and drowned... 

I still have no idea how he got in there... it was very interesting, I shoulda took a photo


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## moneymgmt (Apr 30, 2007)

Johnny, that's horrible. I can't believe you left enough beer in a bottle for a mouse to drown in!


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

Fix-It Chick said:


> "Poisons do not know when to stop killing."


True but rodenticides are pretty good about knowing what to kill

modern rodenticides are coumadin based, a blood thinner.
It turns them into hemophiliacs and they simply bleed out

The antidote for coumadin is vitamin K which is in most pet foods
Rodenticides also have ipecac added to make any animal that ingests it throw up
Rodents can not regurgitate
Pesticides (including rodenticides) dosages are on a milligram per kiligram ratio
A rat weighs a pound or so a cat weighs around eight or more

All of these factors make cats 80 times more resistant to rodenticides than rats or mice especially


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

Dusty
Your info is slightly flawed
Coumdin based anti coagulants, which almost all are do not take multiple feeding and do kill in hours, 8 to 28

The old bait used diphacinone which took multiple feedings over multiple days, this was a built in safety against accidental poisoning on non targets

There is no dehydration poison that I know of
That is an old myth that we let continue because it was easier for us to toss bait into your attic than to come back every few days to check traps in attics


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## Dusty (Aug 9, 2006)

You may be right. I can only go by what my exterminator told me and what I have seen.


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

You may think the catch and release option is humane, however mice mutiply like rabbits do, quickly & lots . So if they are considered a problem to you I recomend eliminating them in what ever manner is needed. I'm sure there will be plenty more to replace the ones you get rid of. Pets need humane treatment NOT Pests.


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## DeeTee (Aug 29, 2007)

*A Better Mouse Trap?*

This place we were remodeling was a wreck and it came with many mice. The picture shows an improv trap. The mice ran up the ramp, jumped on the plate that had the dab of peanut butter, and because it was offset on the paint stirrer they fell into the bucket. 
Then we took them out and released them into a field where eventually I guess a raptor of some kind would come along and scoop them up. Pretty cruel, huh? 
Well, we felt better thinking that maybe the bird didn't get sick from some poison the mouse had eaten.


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

> I can only go by what my exterminator told me and what I have seen.


Your exterminator is wrong
I am a certified operator with over 25 years in the business and was a field trainer for two major pest control companies

The first thing we had to do was dispel all the unconfirmed myths that the new hires had heard and taken as truth over the years before they passed the disinformation onto customers


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

How many mice did you catch in the bucket? Great idea, BTW. Did you ever trap more than one? Did they fight to the death (UFC-mouse style)?

When I had invasion of mice (bless-my-soul I convinced myself for the longest time that they were voles) I contacted the county extension office. The staff person told me that mice are very linked geographically to their territory for survival. She told me that even relocating them out of my house into my neighbor's yard (just kidding) could cause them to die. I opted for snap traps and tossed them when they nabbed their prey.


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## jeanthegardener (Feb 11, 2008)

Eew mice! I hate them. I actually adopted a cat just for our mice infestation. It worked too.


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## ~DEVO~ (Feb 26, 2008)

I heard of an idea that I really do not know if it works or not, but here we go...
Lay down some newspaper on the floor or other area that rats and mice frequent. Then pour some soda or other sweet carbonated drink in a (shallow) bowl and place in the middle of the newspaper.

I was told the newspaper attracts the rodents (???)
And since rats and mice can not burp (???) they die (pop) due to the carbonation.

I heard about this method one week after I poisoned the few rodents that I had.

Try it and let us know if it works or not.


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

When rats find new food they approach with caution, this is a natural counter action to the inability to burp or barf, they will eat a little and if it doesn't make them sick they will eat more

Carbonation is not good for them in the long run but it is unlikely to kill them in a single feeding
While mother nature did not see fit to allow them to burp she did graciously allow them to fart


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## ~DEVO~ (Feb 26, 2008)

ocoee said:


> ...graciously allow them to fart


:laughing: lmao!!!


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## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

Well, this topic just keeps going and going! Thanks for all the info and suggestions. I did not try any poison... I kept the traps up until they quit catching and let the cats take care of the rest. I'm still not sure which smells worse (mouse farts or cat sh#t) but at least the cats don't pee on my dishes. 

I think I'm down to one mouse now that I occasionally surprise in the sink (or is it the other way around)? I don't know what made them decide, after all these years, that this was suddenly the place to be...


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 7, 2004)

Here's one from my area (untested). Mix cornmeal with plaster of paris. The theory is that the plaster hardens and corks them up permently.

I'm old school and play hardball. Posion and traps where the other animals can't reach and a .22 for outside (not recommended for residential neighborhoods).


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## perpetual98 (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm on a roll at home. 8 mice exterminated with the good old spring trap in 5 consecutive nights. All from under the vanity in our main bathroom. I'm convinced that I would have gotten more had I reset the trap quicker. How many mice do you think can live in a house? lol


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

Fix-It Chick said:


> I don't know what made them decide, after all these years, that this was suddenly the place to be...


Several conditions came together to create the perfect environment for the (_fill in pest of choice_) to thrive

Once you stop catching them with snap traps switch to glue boards, or vice versa

Every once in a while go move the trap 6 inches or so to pique their curiosity, if you are sure they are mice
_I have been to many mouse calls that turn out to be rats_


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 7, 2004)

Try mixing cornmeal with plaster of paris. It's supposed to cork them up permanently.


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## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

ocoee said:


> if you are sure they are mice... I have been to many mouse calls that turn out to be rats</i>


Little brown hairy things about 2-3 inches long, plus 2-3 inches of tail? (Just kidding.) Aside from my remote location, climate, and geography, this also happens to be God's country - Alberta - which, due to a diligent and highly successful border (rat) patrol, is one of the the ONLY rat-free areas in the world.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0331_030331_rats_2.html​andhttp://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-66931703.html. ​I'm so proud... lol


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## Fix-It Chick (Sep 11, 2006)

On another sort of completely unrelated topic... larder beetles anyone?


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## justdon (Nov 16, 2005)

*reason for pest removal*

IF mice and other rodents are coming in ,,,they are dragging in the other less desirable critters too,,,like ticks and fleas, mites and what have you. Hantavirus is a REAL concern also!! get rid of them ALL!!

bait those traps with a bit of cheese,works best,,,I never had good luck with peanut butter!!

I used to have some come in,,,couldnt figure it out,,,the dryer vent was open a tad from lint,,they crawled in,,,knawed thru flexible tubing and were inside. I replaced flex with aluminum solid pipe and NO more mice.

Since then I went to the pointed up dryer vent that the air raised up and the weight dropped it back down,,,as long as you clean the lint out every little while,works good. Slick plastic they cant crawl up.

Did you KNOW a mouse cant pee like a regular animal?? Where ever they walk they pee with EVERY footstep!! they excrete it thru their feet. So walking on your counters,dishes,food items are okay?? Get some more snap traps or at least the glue boards.

yes they can enter from a crack as small as a pencil eraser. Steel wool keeps them out of cracks and places best,,,they dont chew thru it.

Your very HEALTH may depend on getting rid of these PESTS!!!


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## mtm (Nov 6, 2007)

> Years back in NYC, there was a mouse and rat poison called Mouse Nots (if my middle-aged memory still serves me correctly) that once ingested, caused the rodent to go into a frenzy for water as it was literally burning them up from the inide out very quickly. The idea was no dead mouse/rat carcass left to stink up the joint


OMG I remember that stuff. I was living in a apartment building at the time. Three building were being renovated next door to us, displacing the local rat/mouse population. The super put those mouse knots down. Was a horror show coming home at 5am and seeing dead rats in my toilet bowl. Even found a couple in the dishwasher. Still makes me cringe when I think about it.


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## ocoee (May 31, 2007)

> Little brown hairy things about 2-3 inches long, plus 2-3 inches of tail?


Also describes baby rats

Where I live in Central Florida mice problems are not common except in two small defined areas
The rat/mouse mistake usually come from customers with thick Bronx type accents
A big rat here is about 1.5 pounds

The active ingredient in Mouse-Nots was strychnine and is highly regulated now if used at all. You will not buy it over the counter or find any responsible professional that will use it these days
It was replaced by Zinc Phosphide which also has fallen out of favor due to it's indiscriminate lethality and as far as I know it is banned

It caused death by causing muscular contractions leading to asphyxiation
Even if the rodent did feel a need to drink water his mental and motor faculties would not have permitted it to search for it



> bait those traps with a bit of cheese,works best,,,I never had good luck with peanut butter!!


Everyone has their own preferred best bait
Peanut Butter is the default, the best I have ever found was mayonnaise


> Did you KNOW a mouse cant pee like a regular animal?? Where ever they walk they pee with EVERY footstep!! they excrete it thru their feet.


No, they make pee pee through their little pee pees just like other mammals
They do suffer with incontinence that causes them to pee whenever they get enough pee in them to work it's way out, but they don't pee with every step or through their feet


> Steel wool keeps them out of cracks and places best,,,they dont chew thru it.


Steel wool is a very good but very temporary quick fix
The thinness of the steel strands make it very susceptible to rust and it degrades very very quickly if exposed to any humidity
Copper mesh, such as Chore Boys works much better


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## comp (Jan 14, 2008)

you can get SS wool to :thumbsup:


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