# Help - Gable Wall Bowing/Leaning Out...



## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Working on the interior partition walls and we discovered our gable walls have apparently bowed or something because they are no longer plumb. We obsessed over getting them plumb when framing the exterior. 

The wall partition we built is perfectly square and snugs right into place at the bottom but there is have 1/2" to 3/4" gap at the top, after putting the level on it you can see it is no longer plumb. 

What do we do about this? Is this going to keep getting worse or is this because we waited too long to get interior walls built?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ya. you are going to need to pull that back to plumb and secure it. The scissor trusses aren't providing any support but the wall you are measuring at might be able to, but it would need to be beeded up. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of a 12" or so header on that wall attached to all trusses as it goes away from the gable.

Pros will be along.

Bud

PS, if it was bowing when the roof sheathing was installed that may have to be changes as well. Yes you can scream.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

I never read anything about gable wall supporting and I read my framing book from cover to cover. I can grab the 2x6's in the middle of the gable walls and push and pull them to make the house rattle a little. That's weird. You can't do that on the other two walls due to the trusses holding them. I never realized a gable wall would flex like that.

To your point, Bud9051, I was thinking about notching in a 1x4 or 1x6 diagonal brace on the interior wall partition there, and maybe add some diagonal bracing blocks between the studs to try to solidify that wall so we could maybe pull the exterior wall back in. I'm just worried that this won't hold over time. An exterior wall vs an interior partition wall - seems like the exterior is going to slowly win that contest. 

Because we don't have a continuous structural link from one gable wall all the way to the other. We have no interior wall system to take advantage of to pull the gable walls together like that. So we have to rely on bolting a wall to the floor, beef it up and hope that's enough to pull the exterior wall in....


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I think it's the triple top plates. The studs are following. Even beams will bend and sometimes crown is built into them if a vertical load but this is a horizontal load and the lumber was too wet or not wide enough. You could pull the wall in a bit by using the floor as anchor but not sure how you'll fix it. Those top plates will want to bend back. Anchor could be that inside wall that can be braced with plywood then attach the gable wall to that wall. Or use a metal plate on top of the triple plate once the wall is pulled in.
BTW, the triple plates may have done moving as long as dry enough. How wide is the gable? That much gap is not a disaster, but depends on how you'll use it. If crown trim, cabinets or tiling, you want as straight/flat as possible.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I never read anything about gable wall supporting and I read my framing book from cover to cover. I can grab the 2x6's in the middle of the gable walls and push and pull them to make the house rattle a little. That's weird. You can't do that on the other two walls due to the trusses holding them. I never realized a gable wall would flex like that.
> 
> To your point, Bud9051, I was thinking about notching in a 1x4 or 1x6 diagonal brace on the interior wall partition there, and maybe add some diagonal bracing blocks between the studs to try to solidify that wall so we could maybe pull the exterior wall back in. I'm just worried that this won't hold over time. An exterior wall vs an interior partition wall - seems like the exterior is going to slowly win that contest.
> 
> Because we don't have a continuous structural link from one gable wall all the way to the other. We have no interior wall system to take advantage of to pull the gable walls together like that. So we have to rely on bolting a wall to the floor, beef it up and hope that's enough to pull the exterior wall in....


 You have some strange things going on there.
Why have you got insulation in there before you are finished framing.
Did you have that wall braced plumb before you stood trusses?
Why is the gable truss flush with the inside of that wall?
Is the gable not tied the or nailed the top of the end wall?
Climb up and check the gable itself for plumb. Which way does it lean?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

More discussion before we het into a solution.
From the pictures I see 2x4 or 6 on the flat forming the gable end resting on top of a 2x6 wall. Is that correct and is there a ledge there?

How were you intending upon finishing that gable end. As is or built out flush with the wall below?

Also, did the sheathing on the roof fit nice and square or did you have to adjust because of this bow? In other words if the roof is correct then the wall is bowing out and back in. If the roof was wrong then the wall was bowing out and nailed in place.

That ledge I asked about above may be a possible solution.

Bud
Now i have to read carps post, I was slow. and Neal's .


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

carpdad said:


> I think it's the triple top plates. The studs are following. Even beams will bend and sometimes crown is built into them if a vertical load but this is a horizontal load and the lumber was too wet or not wide enough. You could pull the wall in a bit by using the floor as anchor but not sure how you'll fix it. Those top plates will want to bend back. Anchor could be that inside wall that can be braced with plywood then attach the gable wall to that wall. Or use a metal plate on top of the triple plate once the wall is pulled in.
> BTW, the triple plates may have done moving as long as dry enough. How wide is the gable? That much gap is not a disaster, but depends on how you'll use it. If crown trim, cabinets or tiling, you want as straight/flat as possible.


The third plate is drywall backing that should not be there when he has scissors.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I don't understand the house of cards construction you guys do down there.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Is the wall bowing or the entire structure racking? Check the same plumb measurement in the corners to verify which.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> The third plate is drywall backing that should not be there when he has scissors.


Agreed, that's why I asked how he is planning to finish that gable end. 

We will see what he says.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Agreed, that's why I asked how he is planning to finish that gable end.
> 
> We will see what he says.
> 
> Bud


 I am not sure what to ask first? There is nothing done the way we do it.
He should have had detail pages on bracing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> Is the wall bowing or the entire structure racking? Check the same plumb measurement in the corners to verify which.


 It's to late at this stage we can only hope the side walls and corners are plumb, he wasn't ready for sheeting.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> It's to late at this stage we can only hope the side walls and corners are plumb, he wasn't ready for sheeting.



I agree, but it does make a difference on how best to remedy. If only the center wall is bowed out at the top. Then it can be pulled in, and secured to the partition wall. A partition wall braced with corner bracing that is.
But if the whole building is racked, and unmovable due to sheathing already in place, then there isn't much to do at this point other that tie together and prevent further leaning. IMHO




A note on the trusses. I see no angle bracing up there and am wondering what is preventing the entire truss section from racking. I only see perpendicular stringers, which help, but doesn't stop racking.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Okay that is not a third top plate. That is simply a two-by-four we used to help attach the Gable truss to the top plates - a nailer board of sorts. We still toenailed all along the bottom of the Gable truss, but we also added this nailer board as per a suggestion in something I read or saw. 

And yes that Gable truss area is to be finished out flush with the wall. 

The wall was still plumb when sheathing was started as far as I remember. I cannot say that the very day they started sheathing the roof that I put a level in the middle of the Gable wall, I just know that the Gable wall was perfectly plumb for some period of time before sheathing was started on the walls and roof. 

All four corners still show plumb and the opposite Gable wall does not appear to be bowing out, although the bubble on the level doesn't seem quite as perfect as the day we erected that wall but still it is nothing like this other Gable wall.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> I agree, but it does make a difference on how best to remedy. If only the center wall is bowed out at the top. Then it can be pulled in, and secured to the partition wall. A partition wall braced with corner bracing that is.
> But if the whole building is racked, and unmovable due to sheathing already in place, then there isn't much to do at this point other that tie together and prevent further leaning. IMHO


 The center of that wall can be pulled in with a spring brace, it might be a fight if it was bowed before the truss was install if the truss is nailed to the end wall right across the corners will be leaning in a little so it might take 2 or 3 spring braces. 
The bigger trick is to make it stay in place after you move it,


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

To answer some more questions....

That insulation you are seeing is just cavities in which we already know there is going to be no electrical or plumbing or anything, it is not shot into place or anything we were just stuffing it in the walls to help warm the place while we work in it. 

That Gable truss is not built out flush with inside ofthe wall it's built out flush with the outside of the wall. The Gable truss is made from two by fours and it's sitting on exterior walls made from two by sixes that lumber that looks like a third top plate is just the nailer board which I could simply remove if we think that's a problem. 

Yes the walls were built out plumb and were braced when we set all of the trusses. We only recently removed those braces when all of the roofing and outside sheathing was completely done.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

And the Gable truss itself appears to be mostly plumb although you can tell if you pull the wall in it will be just perfectly plumb.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

And Neal, if you remember, I came in here and made a post on truss bracing and obsessed over it and posted about it incessantly for about 2 weeks and no one talked about any kind of bracing other than what I have up there and I was even told that I was going way overboard.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> The center of that wall can be pulled in with a spring brace, it might be a fight if it was bowed before the truss was install if the truss is nailed to the end wall right across the corners will be leaning in a little so it might take 2 or 3 spring braces.
> The bigger trick is to make it stay in place after you move it,


 I know that is a framers technique, I would probably use a cable winch. The partition wall needs to be built like a truck first to hold it in place. With flush cross bracing and possibly under floor blocking.

The trusses without angles bracing is concerning.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> And the Gable truss itself appears to be mostly plumb although you can tell if you pull the wall in it will be just perfectly plumb.


 I went and looked at the other thread and we can see a lot more of the bracing you do have so it is not as bad as it looks in the this thread. 


So to pull that wall in you want to take the brace off the interior wall that you have there so it can rack. 
It does appear you have drywall backing on the one end wall unless you are lowering the ceiling there that should be a 2x4?


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

There is all manner ofangle bracing in the truss system but I don't know which particular angle you're talkin about in order to tell you it's there or it's not. since these are scissor trusses angles are not very dramatic at all and when you look at my pictures it may look like straight pieces of lumber but really they're put as much of an angle as they can be. 

We have 2 straight cat walks from one end to the other that are straight pieces of 2 by 4 by 12 ft lumber and then we added 2 by 4 by 12 ft lumber at Angles on both sides of the center king studs of the trusses from one end to the other. 

But all of that bracing in my mind wouldn't have anything to do with a wall bowing out. that bracing would seem to keep the trusses straight up against lateral forces but I don't see how their bracing can affect the wall several feet below them....


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw... I guess I'm not sure what you mean by letting the interior wall partition rack. I thought I would want to beef up their interior partition and make it a solid structure attached to the floor so it could serve as an anchor to pull this wall in a little bit. I bought some anchor bolts and some lumber to do that. Are you saying I need to change my plan?

Also on the truss bracing, are you saying that the bracing itself is not as bad as we thought or is the bracing itself sufficient? I want to make sure the trust system is braced as it should be and I really thought I had already done that. If it needs anything else I need to do that now.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> There is all manner ofangle bracing in the truss system but I don't know which particular angle you're talkin about in order to tell you it's there or it's not. since these are scissor trusses angles are not very dramatic at all and when you look at my pictures it may look like straight pieces of lumber but really they're put as much of an angle as they can be.
> 
> We have 2 straight cat walks from one end to the other that are straight pieces of 2 by 4 by 12 ft lumber and then we added 2 by 4 by 12 ft lumber at Angles on both sides of the center king studs of the trusses from one end to the other.
> 
> But all of that bracing in my mind wouldn't have anything to do with a wall bowing out. that bracing would seem to keep the trusses straight up against lateral forces but I don't see how their bracing can affect the wall several feet below them....


 No I think I am happy with what I saw up in the trusses.


My head is twisting around because we build in a totally different order.


Gone looking at pictures


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Can someone post a link to the other thread


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

This looks like you have three top plates, are they all flush.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> Can someone post a link to the other thread


 Click on is name the find other posts and it is on page 3 or 4, I should have posted it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Why is the top plat sticking out, does that mean the top one is straight and not nailed down.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> Why is the top plat sticking out, does that mean the top one is straight and not nailed down.


 I assumed this was just a drywall nailer.


Here is the link for the other thread, post 73 has some cross bracing pics

https://www.diychatroom.com/f19/scissor-truss-permanent-bracing-644911/index5/


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> I assumed this was just a drywall nailer.
> 
> 
> Here is the link for the other thread, post 73 has some cross bracing pics
> ...


 That is what I thought but I think it is nailed to the gable and not to the wall. So it is straight and the wall is out that far, sort of?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> I assumed this was just a drywall nailer.
> 
> 
> Here is the link for the other thread, post 73 has some cross bracing pics
> ...


 Do you agree that the top of the truss is braced good enough and is likely wanting to stand straight. 
If you do try this in for a fix. 
In three spots on the wall right beside an upright in the gable cut the top plates and the bottom of the gable out 1 1/2" for a full height stud to be nailed the bottom plate and the side of the up right 2x4 in the gable crowned in.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Neal, think I would just pull the wall in, cut out 3.5" of the drywall nailer board at the partition intersection, and then tie them together with another top plate.


I did see enough cross bracing in the trusses to agree.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> Neal, think I would just pull the wall in, cut out 3.5" of the drywall nailer board at the partition intersection, and then tie them together with another top plate.
> 
> 
> I did some some enough cross bracing in the trusses to agree.


 So the drywall on the partition wall will hold it straight. :biggrin2: That could be braced for that but one might not be enough.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> So the drywall on the partition wall will hold it straight. :biggrin2: That could be braced for that but one might not be enough.


 Not a chance! But inlaid cross bracing is a bit of pain. Might be easier to sheath one side with plywood first, then drywall over.


I have never done it, but metal utility strapping might be a option. The heavy duty strapping used to hold up cast iron soil pipe should be heavy enough.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yodaman said:


> Not a chance! But inlaid cross bracing is a bit of pain. might be easier to sheath one side with plywood first, then drywall over.
> 
> 
> I have never done it, but metal utility strapping might be a option.


 I just hate to do that in a wall that some one else may want to remove, I think most times we got a scissor for the gable too, the wall got built up to that and the catwalk 2x4s hold the wall in place,


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

Nealtw said:


> I just hate to do that in a wall that some one else may want to remove, I think most times we got a scissor for the gable too, the wall got built up to that and the catwalk 2x4s hold the wall in place,


If I get there before the trusses are ordered, I will usually frame the wall all the way up and eliminate the truss there. The wall there forms a hing and bracing to the deck only works until you remove it. At this point, I would try to bring it in via the spring brace, then reverse brace it up towards the roof deck where everything is rigid.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

sixeightten said:


> If I get there before the trusses are ordered, I will usually frame the wall all the way up and eliminate the truss there. The wall there forms a hing and bracing to the deck only works until you remove it. At this point, I would try to bring it in via the spring brace, then reverse brace it up towards the roof deck where everything is rigid.


You can't have a brace below the ceiling of the scissor???
But yes I thinking working in full height studs is the answer.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm totally not understanding this bracing you all are talking about up in the truss system that somehow holds a wall in place. If you run a 2x4 catwalk along the top side of the bottom chord of the trusses, I don't see how that board ever comes in contact with the wall built up to the bottom side of that same truss chord. 

And in my case, I've got a gable truss, so the scissor truss bottom chord is even further up from the bottom chord of the gable truss the wall is built up to. I don't see how truss bracing supports or holds the gable wall at all. 

So...we ended up notching in a 1x4 brace in the middle of the partition wall, then built up a bunch of 45 degree blocks in the 2 outside stud cavities and that seemed to create a strong partition wall. We then bolted them down with 1/2" x 6" tapcon anchors, doubled up on the far end from the exterior wall. We then notched about 2.5" into the top top-plate for the top top-plate of the interior partition to tie into. 

I just used a lag screw to pull the exterior wall into this strengthened partition wall. It seemed to work. I put the top top-plate in and got it all nailed together. The wall isn't perfectly plumb, but the bubble is between the lines, I'll say that much. 

I don't know about all this holding over time. 

What do I need to do to prevent this next time? What did I do wrong here? Obviously I will lose the nailerboard on the back of the gable truss, that seems to be a bother for many. Although I just think it's completely weird to simply trust a row of toenails exclusively for the gable truss attachment to the house. It's already a hinge there, it seems crazy to just trust toenails.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I'm totally not understanding this bracing you all are talking about up in the truss system that somehow holds a wall in place. If you run a 2x4 catwalk along the top side of the bottom chord of the trusses, I don't see how that board ever comes in contact with the wall built up to the bottom side of that same truss chord.
> 
> And in my case, I've got a gable truss, so the scissor truss bottom chord is even further up from the bottom chord of the gable truss the wall is built up to. I don't see how truss bracing supports or holds the gable wall at all.
> 
> ...


 Yes you have pulled it over and tagged it to the interior wall, now you have to stop that wall from racking back when you remove the cross bracing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

@sixeightten Mentioned no truss just a wall at the end then the roof structure holds the top of the wall in place.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

@timkoupe My fear is that I told you to buy a gable truss and everywhere we look on line we see that, that is what a lot of people do and now I have found that a lot of people are having the same problem and I found this little goody, And this is where I was thinking you could cut out slots in the top plate and add some full height studs. Then the cat walk in the ceiling would hold the top of the wall.
Did I tell you to buy a gable here? :vs_mad: I am really sorry if I did. :crying:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

you can see here that we built the back wall to fit the scissor truss in the back and latter in the front. Fancy little pool shed.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

BTW When walls meet like this we put a 2x6 behind it to attach the 2 walls and provide drywall backing, or you can put blocking 2 feet on center between the 2x6s to do the same thing.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> @timkoupe My fear is that I told you to buy a gable truss and everywhere we look on line we see that, that is what a lot of people do and now I have found that a lot of people are having the same problem and I found this little goody, And this is where I was thinking you could cut out slots in the top plate and add some full height studs. Then the cat walk in the ceiling would hold the top of the wall.
> Did I tell you to buy a gable here? :vs_mad: I am really sorry if I did. :crying:


Ok this is pretty major. I've sunk thousands of dollars into this house, and am now completely broke. The roofing is done. The siding is done. Everything on the exterior is done. I cannot rip everything off, tear off all the sheathing, and tear up framing and go redo gable ends. Good lord...we're way down the road on this....

This is a freaking nightmare now. Exactly what I need.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> Yes you have pulled it over and tagged it to the interior wall, now you have to stop that wall from racking back when you remove the cross bracing.


The bracing I installed is permanent, not temporary. It doesn't get removed.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> BTW When walls meet like this we put a 2x6 behind it to attach the 2 walls and provide drywall backing, or you can put blocking 2 feet on center between the 2x6s to do the same thing.


We did too. This picture was taken to show the gap distance and where pieces are lining up.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Ok this is pretty major. I've sunk thousands of dollars into this house, and am now completely broke. The roofing is done. The siding is done. Everything on the exterior is done. I cannot rip everything off, tear off all the sheathing, and tear up framing and go redo gable ends. Good lord...we're way down the road on this....
> 
> This is a freaking nightmare now. Exactly what I need.


Your upset is understood. Cross bracing in the wall will hold it where it is. 


I didn't mean to tare it all down I was just thinking a couple full height studs from the floor to the ceiling nailed to the side of the upright 2x4 in the gable.
See the black lines I added


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Does the wall go all the way to the other end of the building?

Why not buy a come along (you know the cable type) attach it to each end of the building, and pull the end walls up tight against the wall that runs the length of the building?

And then leave the come along there.

A bit unconventional, but... why not?

You'll need a good attachment to the end walls.. like wrapping a 34" Simpson strap around the top wall plate of the gable, but seems like that would be doable.

The Simpson straps are easy to bend in a vice. Form it, then cut the building exterior sheathing and slide it into place. This is much better than screwing something to the top plate that will pull apart.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson...-in-Strap-Tie-ST6236/100375065?keyword=ST6236


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> Your upset is understood. Cross bracing in the wall will hold it where it is.
> 
> 
> I didn't mean to tare it all down I was just thinking a couple full height studs from the floor to the ceiling nailed to the side of the upright 2x4 in the gable.
> See the black lines I added


That will require me to cut all the way through both top plates (and the nailer that looks like a 3rd plate) completely splitting the wall - and in 2 places at least. Because the gable uprights you're seeing there are flush with the outside, not the inside, so I can't just cut in 3.5", I have to cut all the way through to the backside of the sheathing. 

Even adding straps or whatever workaround for that, I wonder if it will ultimately make it weaker rather than stronger? I really don't like the idea of splitting that top plate system like that.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

HenryMac said:


> Does the wall go all the way to the other end of the building?


No it doesn't. That wall is about 13 feet and stops. There is no continuous system of interior walls that ultimately attach one side to the other. The middle area is completely open, with interior wall systems flanking each side. 

The duct routing pic kind of shows what i'm talking about...


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Ok...is the issue with scissor trusses mixed with gable trusses simply because the cat walk is too high to meet up with the wall-gable "hinge" point to provide any support/bracing? 

If so...what if I run diagonal supports from the scissor truss right next to the gable truss, running from the bottom chord of the scissor to the top plate system of the wall, or something like that, so it attaches the wall to the truss which is then supported by the cat walk and other bracing. And let that create a kind of sloped ceiling right there at the end? Sounds like a tricky effect with all those angles...

Do I need to consult an engineer at this point?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> That will require me to cut all the way through both top plates (and the nailer that looks like a 3rd plate) completely splitting the wall - and in 2 places at least. Because the gable uprights you're seeing there are flush with the outside, not the inside, so I can't just cut in 3.5", I have to cut all the way through to the backside of the sheathing.
> 
> Even adding straps or whatever workaround for that, I wonder if it will ultimately make it weaker rather than stronger? I really don't like the idea of splitting that top plate system like that.


 We repaired a house where the framers got fired. They had built a 20 ft high wall with a 10 ft wall on top of a 10 ft wall and the wind was bending it in the middle. 
The engineer had us do exactly that cut out in 4 places on that wall, I think it may have been double studs we did.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> We repaired a house where the framers got fired. They had built a 20 ft high wall with a 10 ft wall on top of a 10 ft wall and the wind was bending it in the middle.
> The engineer had us do exactly that cut out in 4 places on that wall, I think it may have been double studs we did.


Did you see my post just before this one? About the angle pieces from the last scissor truss to the wall plate system?


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> No it doesn't. That wall is about 13 feet and stops. There is no continuous system of interior walls that ultimately attach one side to the other. The middle area is completely open, with interior wall systems flanking each side.


I asked the wrong question. Look at the photo below. Is the ceiling height in the area in the red box below 8 feet high (ish) and not a cathedral ceiling? If the answer is yes, you could still use the come-along method.



timkoupe said:


> Do I need to consult an engineer at this point?


I would. Better now than after everything is finished.

Free advice is worth the price of admission.

What may be needed is a box brace at both ends, similar to the photo below. it would go above the divider walls at each end.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Did you see my post just before this one? About the angle pieces from the last scissor truss to the wall plate system?


 Can you post a photo of that. Having a quick talk with an engineer would not hurt.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> Can you post a photo of that. Having a quick talk with an engineer would not hurt.


I put black lines where I was thinking some 2x4 bracing could go to create direct bracing to the hinge of the wall-gable connection to the bottom chord of the scissor truss just before it. Or could even skip to next scissor truss, depending on the desired ceiling slope it will create. The bracing becomes the ceiling rafters, or blocks, or whatever you'd call that....


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

HenryMac said:


> I asked the wrong question. Look at the photo below. Is the ceiling height in the area in the red box below 8 feet high (ish) and not a cathedral ceiling? If the answer is yes, you could still use the come-along method.


No, it sure isn't. It's all cathedral. The two areas flanking the center open area could be 8' tall and make them like little mini-attic areas that could be used to hide things, but the center open area has to stay open. 

Honestly, I hate the idea of a permanently installed cable. Not saying I wouldn't do it if push came to shove, but I'd rather wear out a long list of options before I get to that one. 

I appreciate the input though. I do think consulting an engineer at this point is the right way to go. I'm sure I'll get chewed out and reprimanded for not doing that to begin with. Honestly, we've been cursing ourselves for not going to the trouble in the beginning. Every time we talk we say the same thing..."next time we're having this designed by professionals".


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I put black lines where I was thinking some 2x4 bracing could go to create direct bracing to the hinge of the wall-gable connection to the bottom chord of the scissor truss just before it. Or could even skip to next scissor truss, depending on the desired ceiling slope it will create. The bracing becomes the ceiling rafters, or blocks, or whatever you'd call that....


If one was inline with the upright in the gable and near the catwalk so you could put plywood or OSB on it making it like a truss triangle, then you would be getting the support from the catwalk.
That looks like a lot more work and quit a design change.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I put black lines where I was thinking some 2x4 bracing could go to create direct bracing to the hinge of the wall-gable connection to the bottom chord of the scissor truss just before it. Or could even skip to next scissor truss, depending on the desired ceiling slope it will create. The bracing becomes the ceiling rafters, or blocks, or whatever you'd call that....


 Actually, to have a flat plane it would have to resemble a cottage roof.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

You can not just add lateral bracing perpendicular to the bottom cord like in post #56. 

Neal's added 2x verticals is probably where an engineer will take you, but they will also need to be tied into some lateral bracing.

Early on Neal said "I don't understand the house of cards construction you guys do down there." In tornado alley, no less, maybe have the engineer also review the Simpson ties you've used and where. Hopefully 400-600 bucks could get an engineer's ok on all of it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> You can not just add lateral bracing perpendicular to the bottom cord like in post #56.
> 
> Neal's added 2x verticals is probably where an engineer will take you, but they will also need to be tied into some lateral bracing.
> 
> Early on Neal said "I don't understand the house of cards construction you guys do down there." In tornado alley, no less, maybe have the engineer also review the Simpson ties you've used and where. Hopefully 400-600 bucks could get an engineer's ok on all of it.


I was talking about nobody builds the interior walls and seldom locking the interior to the exterior walls. I could have worded that better.:wink2:


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

3onthetree said:


> You can not just add lateral bracing perpendicular to the bottom cord like in post #56.
> 
> Neal's added 2x verticals is probably where an engineer will take you, but they will also need to be tied into some lateral bracing.
> 
> Early on Neal said "I don't understand the house of cards construction you guys do down there." In tornado alley, no less, maybe have the engineer also review the Simpson ties you've used and where. Hopefully 400-600 bucks could get an engineer's ok on all of it.


I don't understand what you all mean by house of cards construction. But then, I'm only partly sure of what you mean by "racking". There are a ton of terms thrown around in construction lingo, and I'm barely tracking it, ha ha. 

An engineer is going to be involved at least in this part. We are broke though. I don't know how we're going to pay for it. We were trying to get moved into this place so we could stop paying high rent and redirect that money to inside work. (We've been living in our flip houses for years, so we're very accustomed to living in a construction zone). 

I don't know about moving in this thing if I have to worry about my house coming down. I went to so much trouble researching this stuff, and getting all the bracing figured out for the truss system...only to be taken down by a flat bottom gable truss. No one in the process of buying these even brought it up. They took our money, sold us trusses and never said a word. 

Don't get me wrong, not saying it's anyone's fault but my own, but I am still surprised no one spoke up and at least asked..."hey man, you know you're not supposed to use flat bottom gables with scissor trusses, right?"


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

How about?
Whole wall is only 22'.
1. remove 2x4 nailer
2. cut off 3 1/8 (as much as necessary - maybe even up to 3 1/4) from the flat gable studs
3. add 2x10 double header as in image. Use the longest you can buy in the middle. This will also look like a shelf so most natural. I was thinking adding a small window above would look good as well. You can buy a small window (maybe a bsmt window?) and just use the double pane glass. Make your own frame.
4. I thought you can use the image wall as the anchor but it's short bath wall with door openings. Can't brace that wall enough, I think, to hold the gable wall.
5. I think you should add 2x4 on edge to those flat studs up there.
6. How about the gable on the opposite side?
7. Ask the engineer but in your area, you could benefit from crossing bracing the walls at the corners? Because cathedral, you are missing the usual ceiling joists that can brace the 4 walls.
8. Gable wall is flat plane so you don't need a nailer there.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> I don't understand what you all mean by house of cards construction.


House of Cards Construction: All the walls are just sitting there, leaning against each other, none of the cards are actually attached to each other. Knock one card over, the entire "house of cards" falls down (see photo below).



timkoupe said:


> It's all cathedral. The two areas flanking the center open area could be 8' tall and make them like little mini-attic areas that could be used to hide things, but the center open area has to stay open.


But the problem is the areas flanking the center are only on one side of the building. And the cable won't work at all unless there is a wall running full length for the cable to pull the gable ends against.

If those flanking areas were symmetrical then I'm confident that bracing could be accomplished as an add on at this point. But that's not the design.

Have you ever carried a 4x8 sheet of plywood outside when the wind is blowing? The forces are extreme. Now think about a 100 mph wind blowing on the gable end of your building... without lateral bracing, that's some incredible forces.

My barn is built with a center open area for a car lift. But there are substantial box braces that supply the lateral bracing. And the trusses, roof structure and wall structure were all built incredibly strong to account for the fact that the center section would not have lateral bracing. That's what is needed, but that's not easily retrofitted. It would also look rather nasty compared to the wide open space you are after

You need a structural engineer. I know that's not what you want to hear, but that's the truth.

Good luck to you sir.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

HenryMac said:


> House of Cards Construction: All the walls are just sitting there, leaning against each other, none of the cards are actually attached to each other. Knock one card over, the entire "house of cards" falls down (see photo below).


You guys don't do platform framing there? That's all I'm doing. Just good ole platform framing. The walls are all attached to each other at the corners, the trusses sit on top with lateral bracing per the BCSI, nailed down and hurricane strapped, sheathed and sided. 

My only issue is a big one, but it's simply using flat bottom gable trusses with a scissor truss system that puts the ceiling diaphragm too high to support the hinge point created where the gable truss sits on the wall. 

In my view, I wanted all interior walls to not be load bearing. I wanted a 22 x 42 room that I can chop up with interior partitions anyway I like. Maybe I should have taken advantage of the interior walls to provide more structural strength, I just don't like interior walls being load bearing if I can help it. 

Yes, I will need a bit of luck but I have a feeling the structural engineer is going to tell me something similar to Nealtw's suggestion - cut into the top plates to install full length studs to attach to the gable truss uprights to then attach to the ceiling catwalk bracing, the ceiling diaphragm as I'm reading. 

At least that's what I'm hoping. The wall is not coming down. As I said, we're broke. So I have to fix what is there. My whole savings is invested in this.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw....I was thinking since the top plate system is 5.5" wide and since I would have to cut all the way through the gable bottom chord to get the new full length studs to nail up to the side of the gable uprights that I might as well just use 2 x 6's and then I'd have a full flush wall for drywalling all the way up to the ceiling instead of having to build out that gable area triangle. 

This fix doesn't seem like it would really take all that long to pull off either. I could do this in a day. My concern is the sheathing and siding are already finished, so would I need to tear off all the siding so I can nail the sheathing into these full length studs I'm adding? 

Also, what engineering purpose is the top plate system? If I can just split walls at the top plate, I'm wondering what the top plate's job actually is then?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Any thoughts on just stick building an additional 2x4 full length wall on the inside. This could be done without disturbing the top plates or outside sheathing. And it keeps the inside flush for drywall.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Nealtw....I was thinking since the top plate system is 5.5" wide and since I would have to cut all the way through the gable bottom chord to get the new full length studs to nail up to the side of the gable uprights that I might as well just use 2 x 6's and then I'd have a full flush wall for drywalling all the way up to the ceiling instead of having to build out that gable area triangle.
> 
> This fix doesn't seem like it would really take all that long to pull off either. I could do this in a day. My concern is the sheathing and siding are already finished, so would I need to tear off all the siding so I can nail the sheathing into these full length studs I'm adding?
> 
> Also, what engineering purpose is the top plate system? If I can just split walls at the top plate, I'm wondering what the top plate's job actually is then?


 
You don't usually have to worry about the sheeting but you could add a 2x2 to the side of the 2x6 and then screw into the sheeting with 2" screws or nails.
You are not weakening the gable if you cut right beside an upright and nail it off. 


The most important would be the nice straight cuts so you get a good connection from the plates to the new stud. And that connection could be made better with something like a double 2x6 hanger on the plates.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.double-2x6-joist-hanger-zmax.1000151887.html
Then as the wall wants to lean out you would want the crown of the stud to be in.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> You don't usually have to worry about the sheeting but you could add a 2x2 to the side of the 2x6 and then screw into the sheeting with 2" screws or nails.
> You are not weakening the gable if you cut right beside an upright and nail it off.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm trying to picture how that hanger would fit... I was also wondering about a straight metal strap? Like when you have to notch deep into a top plate system for plumbing and code makes you put a metal strap across the notch. What do you think?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I'm trying to picture how that hanger would fit... I was also wondering about a straight metal strap? Like when you have to notch deep into a top plate system for plumbing and code makes you put a metal strap across the notch. What do you think?


 Just pretend the double plates are a joists that you are hanging on a beam.
the beam would be the stud.
Just have to turn you head a little when you look at it.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> Just pretend the double plates are a joists that you are hanging on a beam.
> the beam would be the stud.
> Just have to turn you head a little when you look at it.


Ah yes. I just had to turn my head like I was eating a taco and it all made sense! Thanks Neal.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Ah yes. I just had to turn my head like I was eating a taco and it all made sense! Thanks Neal.


I think worst case would be the 2 I marked out and the center one right beside the window and you will be good. 


There are tricks to get to getting studs to sit flush before you nail them off.
So if they don't go flush easy, lets talk. :wink2:


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> My only issue is a big one, but it's simply using flat bottom gable trusses with a scissor truss system that puts the ceiling diaphragm too high to support the hinge point created where the gable truss sits on the wall.
> 
> In my view, I wanted all interior walls to not be load bearing. I wanted a 22 x 42 room that I can chop up with interior partitions anyway I like. Maybe I should have taken advantage of the interior walls to provide more structural strength, I just don't like interior walls being load bearing if I can help it.


https://www.mitek-us.com/uploadedFi...tech-articles/design-tips/Gable End Hinge.pdf


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> https://www.mitek-us.com/uploadedFi...tech-articles/design-tips/Gable End Hinge.pdf


I am sure this is helpful in somebodies world. :sad:


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Don't beat yourself up too much, you've done a lot and spit happens every job. The broke part I don't understand though, did you go over budget on the shell?

One BIG assumption this thread is you said you built it plumb. Not knowing how you may have deviated the order of wall/roof sheathing and truss bracing installation, the building could have racked (wind pushing your rectangle into a parallelogram) at any point prior. Most likely though the end wall bowed once the roof sheathing was put on meaning the walls are not adequately braced either. Worst case scenario you need wall tension straps, some wall let-in bracing, or partially re-build the gable end truss to standard construction if you can't find a bracing solution to keep your scissored ceiling. The posters' suggestions are giving you a peek at what you need, but I would wait and see an engineer's solution first as he will be looking at your exterior walls too, not just the trusses.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

carpdad said:


> How about?
> Whole wall is only 22'.
> 1. remove 2x4 nailer
> 2. cut off 3 1/8 (as much as necessary - maybe even up to 3 1/4) from the flat gable studs
> ...


 8, Scissor trusses still hold the outsides walls from spreading.


We did do a system similar to your shelf Idea, we had full height studs in a 22 ft high room, and the engineer did not want the studs cut. We ended up with a square soffit like box built out of 4 2x10s with blocking inside to make sure it stayed square.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

3onthetree said:


> One BIG assumption this thread is you said you built it plumb. Not knowing how you may have deviated the order of wall/roof sheathing and truss bracing installation, the building could have racked (wind pushing your rectangle into a parallelogram) at any point prior. Most likely though the end wall bowed once the roof sheathing was put on meaning the walls are not adequately braced either. Worst case scenario you need wall tension straps, some wall let-in bracing, or partially re-build the gable end truss to standard construction if you can't find a bracing solution to keep your scissored ceiling. The posters' suggestions are giving you a peek at what you need, but I would wait and see an engineer's solution first as he will be looking at your exterior walls too, not just the trusses.



I don't understand the references to additional wall bracing - other than the flat bottom truss-wall hinge problem. What other bracing do you need for your walls in platform framing? 

I thought they just connected to each other at the corners? We have a row of studs sandwiched between a bottom plate and double top plate with proper overlap tying together at the corners. I'm not sure what additional bracing to add to that? 

To be clear, we built the exterior walls, squared them on the ground and used 1x3 nailers to hold them square, then stood them up, bolted them down and braced them plumb to cleats nailed in the slab. We sheathed the exterior walls after they were all put up. Part of the reason for all this is that these are 2x6 walls and I only had my wife and myself working on the site. We had to keep the walls as light as possible to lift them over the anchor bolts together. 

We never removed the temporary wall bracing until all the sheathing was done, both walls and roof. 

But...we did erect the trusses before sheathing anything. And then sheathed the walls first, then did the roof. And the wall braces were still attached throughout that process - nailed perpendicular to the force, so shouldn't have moved. I would not do it that way again. But I do wonder about that step. 



3onthetree said:


> Don't beat yourself up too much, you've done a lot and spit happens every job. The broke part I don't understand though, did you go over budget on the shell?


I appreciate that, man. 

We went broke because it took too long to build it, and we ran out of money paying bills, a wedding, helping out our grown up children...it just ate at our savings. We got lucky to finish the shell before it was all gone. I have gone a tad over budget with the house, but my wife is great at getting good deals at the box stores and finding components on Facebook Buy-Sell-Trade sections. 

We have all the insulation, electrical, plumbing, cabinetry, countertop, tubs and etc all purchased, and a pile of 2x4's for building interior walls. So it's not as bad as it seems - we are just going to have to piecemeal the sheetrock payday to payday. And somehow get HVAC purchased. Sucks...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I don't understand the references to additional wall bracing - other than the flat bottom truss-wall hinge problem. What other bracing do you need for your walls in platform framing?
> 
> I thought they just connected to each other at the corners? We have a row of studs sandwiched between a bottom plate and double top plate with proper overlap tying together at the corners. I'm not sure what additional bracing to add to that?
> 
> ...


 before we had plywood or OSB we did let in braces at the corners.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> But...we did erect the trusses before sheathing anything. And then sheathed the walls first, then did the roof.


The wall sheathing is used as lateral bracing (at least lets say 48" on the corner or any designed shear walls). Just a stickwork of walls and trusses will still take on wind (lateral) loads**. Maybe not enough to blow it down, but apparently enough to rack it an inch or two at this size. I didn't look at your other threads of the construction, but if the temp braces were mostly staked in the ground, and no perpendicular walls were triangulated, there could be movement allowed. 

Maybe now the walls are ok and you just have to deal with bracing the scissors to the flat truss gable to prevent those disasters above. Pay that money to hear what the engineer says about the walls too.

**Near me a contractor raised a three story hotel with roof trusses and most interior walls. No sheathing for some crazy reason. The building blew over before he could get the wall sheathing on.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

3onthetree said:


> The wall sheathing is used as lateral bracing (at least lets say 48" on the corner or any designed shear walls). Just a stickwork of walls and trusses will still take on wind (lateral) loads**. Maybe not enough to blow it down, but apparently enough to rack it an inch or two at this size. I didn't look at your other threads of the construction, but if the temp braces were mostly staked in the ground, and no perpendicular walls were triangulated, there could be movement allowed.
> 
> Maybe now the walls are ok and you just have to deal with bracing the scissors to the flat truss gable to prevent those disasters above. Pay that money to hear what the engineer says about the walls too.
> 
> **Near me a contractor raised a three story hotel with roof trusses and most interior walls. No sheathing for some crazy reason. The building blew over before he could get the wall sheathing on.


We only used stakes in the ground for the gable truss, per the book. The walls were braced with 2 x 4's nailed to the side of a stud or 2 and a cleat nailed into the foundation. I don't see how that can move, at all. Or, at least you'd notice because this is all rigid, there's nothing there to "give" anything, really. 

We also nailed the wall sections together, including the corners, along with the bracing. And since I was nervous about setting the trusses, I was obsessive about measuring the distance between those 42 foot walls all throughout that process. We had them within 1/16" all the way down. I was shocked it was so tight like that. 

I really think this just comes down to the gable truss-wall connection being about 4 feet lower than the ceiling diaphragm. The symptom matches. 

Either way, next time I'm going to sheath the walls as I go along, at least how I see them done on construction sites here where they sheath out the corners a few feet. Also needs to get done a little quicker. We had framing exposed to the elements for about 2 months. Rained quite a few times, too. 

I hated going to work knowing my half built stick house is just sitting there waiting on me to finish it...


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> before we had plywood or OSB we did let in braces at the corners.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_ACUnkRP0


Good ole Larry Haun. The man walks on top plates and just leans down to cut rafter tails like it's nothing. I love watching his building videos. I used his video on connecting 2 adjacent roof systems together to build my porch roof and connect it to the truss roof we're discussing.

This "let in" bracing is the permanent bracing I just did to that interior wall to bring this gable wall in to it and hold it. 

Larry sure makes it look easy. I didn't turn my saw like that because I'll probably take my fingers off somehow. I did a bunch of relief cuts and then chiseled it out.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I am sure this is helpful in somebodies world. :sad:


Didn't look at the link, did you? 

This is nothing to pussy foot around about.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> Didn't look at the link, did you?
> 
> This is nothing to pussy foot around about.


I think you should take a deep breath, we have understood the problem from the fourth or fifth post in this thread, and now you are talking like you are the only one that understands it, like we don't.
Just to be clear both end wall are subject to a bending point at the 8 ft.
eight. So in certain conditions they could fold in or out. 


I an sure pulling them in with a cable would have solved half of that problem.


If you understood that that gable was a bad plan why didn't yell stop work when you offered advice in his last thread.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> I don't see how that can move, at all. Or, at least you'd notice because this is all rigid, there's nothing there to "give" anything, really.
> We also nailed the wall sections together, including the corners, along with the bracing.
> I really think this just comes down to the gable truss-wall connection being about 4 feet lower than the ceiling diaphragm. The symptom matches.
> Either way, next time I'm going to sheath the walls as I go along, at least how I see them done on construction sites here where they sheath out the corners a few feet.


I guess I can only re-emphasize 2 things at this point:
1. There are two different situations with the term "bracing" being used here. One is temporary "shoring" while you raise the walls. The other is in-wall or cross-truss "bracing" to transfer the lateral wind loads. 
2. If you don't understand lateral loads, a DIY forum is not the best method to solve this issue. Let an engineer who can see your as-built walls, connections, and bracing design it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> I guess I can only re-emphasize 2 things at this point:
> 1. There are two different situations with the term "bracing" being used here. One is temporary "shoring" while you raise the walls. The other is in-wall or cross-truss "bracing" to transfer the lateral wind loads.
> 2. If you don't understand lateral loads, a DIY forum is not the best method to solve this issue. Let an engineer who can see your as-built walls, connections, and bracing design it.


 He has an engineer coming in.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

3onthetree said:


> I guess I can only re-emphasize 2 things at this point:
> 1. There are two different situations with the term "bracing" being used here. One is temporary "shoring" while you raise the walls. The other is in-wall or cross-truss "bracing" to transfer the lateral wind loads.
> 2. If you don't understand lateral loads, a DIY forum is not the best method to solve this issue. Let an engineer who can see your as-built walls, connections, and bracing design it.


Well hold on now, don't give up on a fella just yet...remember, I went to Oklahoma schools so you gotta give me some slack. They're still teaching kids we got 9 planets and bacon is a food group.

No I'm certainly not a genius at lateral loads, but as I understand it structural sheathing is supposed to handle the lateral bracing for forces transferred from adjacent walls taking on perpendicular loads. I hope that's the right way to say it. 

What I'm really not understanding here is how and when I'm supposed to know when those rules aren't sufficient. What is supposed to tip me off that I need to add in-wall bracing at this point in a build, rather than rely on the structural sheathing? 

And I'm definitely paying a structural engineer, but I don't think there's too much harm in learning what I can about lateral loads on a DIY forum. I'm that guy that likes the long answer. I want to understand how things work, not just memorize steps and rules.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> I don't think there's too much harm in learning what I can about lateral loads on a DIY forum.


Its not just the hinge, the bracing from the last scissor to the gable truss is doing nothing. The let-in brace on the interior wall you just attached to the gable wall is now in tension. That's just 2 examples of too many variables. You can make the gable truss work (really its just a "cap") but one would have to see the whole building first.

I know you said engineer, I just don't want you to take all the nitty gritty details given as sufficient and install these ideas and leave it at that because you can't physically push the walls. Not trying to put salt in your wound, but this isn't a typical repair, its a design/construction flaw. As long as you're just theorizing about it and not acting I guess.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> Its not just the hinge, the bracing from the last scissor to the gable truss is doing nothing. The let-in brace on the interior wall you just attached to the gable wall is now in tension. That's just 2 examples of too many variables. You can make the gable truss work (really its just a "cap") but one would have to see the whole building first.
> 
> I know you said engineer, I just don't want you to take all the nitty gritty details given as sufficient and install these ideas and leave it at that because you can't physically push the walls. Not trying to put salt in your wound, but this isn't a typical repair, its a design/construction flaw. As long as you're just theorizing about it and not acting I guess.


I am not sure what you see as a problem. I have assumed he has a permit and had some inspections that have passed. I did not ask if stress walls were required or whether any were done. 


I don't know if you noticed that the OP was in almost a panic mode about this problem. May I suggest that once we know that this wall has been fixed up and that pressure is removed he might better be able to deal with other concerns you have.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

About the scissor truss roof. Isn't it already braced enough? Or add more braces truss to truss. Don't have the whole of the roof framing but there could be more overlaps between the braces. It looks like the sheething and those 2x4 strongbacks make the roof into a box? Sorry but I didn't try to understand all ideas and actually, I don't know about trusses. Henrymac's idea of inserting some box braces (4 side square with mid cross frame or face braces on the frame edge) would be good way to add extra reinforcement to the whole roof system against lateral collapse. As long as all the trusses form a braced box (same idea as cross braced wall), isn't it self reinforcing? If I'm reading that the roof has to be also part of that wall, why? As 3onthetree says, the roof is just a cap. If the cap is self braced, only other factor is the uplift.


I'm most worried about the 4 sided walls which don't have mid partition walls for bracing. It looks like the walls can rack before anything else happens. I don't think that truss roof system attaches to the walls to prevent racking. It feels like the top corners of the walls need cross bracing. 



OP: broke is not good. But for your peace of mind, try to scrape together couple of thousand dollars (?) and find a structural engineer as quickly as possible. Can you return some materials? Can you live with less windows to start? Then it could mean you can move in quickly as well. This is not time to try to understand as much as possible. Ask the town/city building department for the engineer they use. Just willy nilly call the local construction companies for introduction.:smile: I don't think your house needs complicated computations for additional braces or framing. Even very experienced framer, esp truss framer from local area, may know what you have to do.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> once we know that this wall has been fixed up and that pressure is removed he might better be able to deal with other concerns you have


That illustrates my point. The focus is too narrow on details of how to cut this nailer, etc etc. Its a much broader picture than that. No talk of the existing truss bracing, x bracing, the other gable, wall bracing, corner bracing, etc etc. None of this can be seen from the few pics here. Its a failure from lateral load and the entire structure needs looked at.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> That illustrates my point. The focus is too narrow on details of how to cut this nailer, etc etc. Its a much broader picture than that. No talk of the existing truss bracing, x bracing, the other gable, wall bracing, corner bracing, etc etc. None of this can be seen from the few pics here. Its a failure from lateral load and the entire structure needs looked at.


 Look thru the posts back a few pages and find the link to the other thread where we talked about the bracing as per the instruction he got from the truss company. The cat walk bracing in the bottom cord of the trusses is not complete and can't be finished until the top half of the wall is built and the drywall backing is add so that brace can be nailed off properly. 


Now please tell me why I am proceeding with out enough info when you have not read all the posts to find out what is known.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> Look thru the posts back a few pages and find the link to the other thread where we talked about the bracing as per the instruction he got from the truss company. The cat walk bracing in the bottom cord of the trusses is not complete and can't be finished until the top half of the wall is built and the drywall backing is add so that brace can be nailed off properly.
> 
> 
> Now please tell me why I am proceeding with out enough info when you have not read all the posts to find out what is known.


What do you guys mean, nailed off properly? You mean nailing the 2 catwalks into the side of the add framing of the top half of the wall? Is the problem here because I face nailed through the gable upright into the catwalk instead of nailing into the side of it? I'm not understand what the problem is with the catwalk.

The reason I did that, is because two rows of top chord diagonal bracing nail into the side of the center gable upright. So I was trying to provide a form of support at the catwalk that didn't rely on a couple of end nails to hold it all. I can certainly change that if I need to.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

carpdad said:


> About the scissor truss roof. Isn't it already braced enough? Or add more braces truss to truss. Don't have the whole of the roof framing but there could be more overlaps between the braces. It looks like the sheething and those 2x4 strongbacks make the roof into a box? Sorry but I didn't try to understand all ideas and actually, I don't know about trusses. Henrymac's idea of inserting some box braces (4 side square with mid cross frame or face braces on the frame edge) would be good way to add extra reinforcement to the whole roof system against lateral collapse. As long as all the trusses form a braced box (same idea as cross braced wall), isn't it self reinforcing? If I'm reading that the roof has to be also part of that wall, why? As 3onthetree says, the roof is just a cap. If the cap is self braced, only other factor is the uplift.
> 
> 
> I'm most worried about the 4 sided walls which don't have mid partition walls for bracing. It looks like the walls can rack before anything else happens. I don't think that truss roof system attaches to the walls to prevent racking. It feels like the top corners of the walls need cross bracing.
> ...


None of the box framing up in the truss system is found anywhere in the BCSI guide. I followed that guide specifically and precisely. I forget all the terms they used...but essentially it came down to top chord lateral bracing is provided by the sheathing. Bottom chord lateral bracing is provided by the gypsum board. Top chord diagonal bracing is required at the first 5 trusses at each gable end. Depending on the width of the trusses, you may have more rows of diagonal bracing besides the middle. Then, if I remember correctly, you couldn't go more than 20 feet and you'd require another truss set of diagonal bracing. 

However it worked out, we were well within specs. I have diagonal bracing continuous from one end to the other. I may have skipped as much as 1 or 2 trusses, nothing like the 20 feet I could have skipped. I also added X bracing in the center by nailing one diagonal top chord 2 x 4 on one side of the king studs and then another 2 x 4 flipped the other way on the other side. You can see it in the truss brace pics. 

I was into that BCSI guide for about 2 weeks. It was the most frustrating time, little information on the internet, no youtube videos really. Was almost impossible to find specific information on it.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Oh, and the trusses are toenailed to the top plate system - 4 nails per side. And hurricane strapped as well. They are attached to the walls and should brace them for racking. In fact, I thought it was kind of their job to do that. Remember, that bottom chord is essentially a rafter tie, or ceiling joist, and that holds the walls in and keeps them from pushing out. 

That was part of my research into roofing systems where I had originally planned to use common rafter on a ridge beam. 

I really hope it doesn't cost 2 thousand dollars for an engineer on this. We've paid structural engineers to inspect properties for about 200 to 300 bucks, and was hoping I could use the same kind of service.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> What do you guys mean, nailed off properly? You mean nailing the 2 catwalks into the side of the add framing of the top half of the wall? Is the problem here because I face nailed through the gable upright into the catwalk instead of nailing into the side of it? I'm not understand what the problem is with the catwalk.
> 
> The reason I did that, is because two rows of top chord diagonal bracing nail into the side of the center gable upright. So I was trying to provide a form of support at the catwalk that didn't rely on a couple of end nails to hold it all. I can certainly change that if I need to.


 No. once you have the top of that wall section built out to 2x6, you will add another rafter like 2x4 for dry wall to go to, then you add more nails to the catwalks and you would add a few more 6 footers from the gable into the trusses to better tie everything together. 


But joins in the catwalk should over lap by 2 ft. none missing.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

3onthetree said:


> That illustrates my point. The focus is too narrow on details of how to cut this nailer, etc etc. Its a much broader picture than that. No talk of the existing truss bracing, x bracing, the other gable, wall bracing, corner bracing, etc etc. None of this can be seen from the few pics here. Its a failure from lateral load and the entire structure needs looked at.


If corner bracing is needed, why don't I see it anywhere? I've walked new housing additions being built, 2K and 3K square foot, 2 story houses made from 2 x 4's, usually 9 foot walls, and none of them have any of this. 

Nothing in my book covered corner bracing either. If these things are needed, then where? And when? My house is a 834 sq foot rectangle. There is nothing special here. The depth isn't even as deep as a standard garage. The width is about 60% of a normal house. I don't understand why my house needs all this stuff that nobody else's house needs that's 3 times the size and uses smaller lumber. 

I just built it to platform framing specs. Like everything else built here. Not saying it doesn't need looked at, but geez, I don't have a specialized engineering scenario here - it's about as simple as it gets. 

If standard platform framing doesn't work here, then where? Who is this book written for if not for my house?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

timkoupe said:


> I really hope it doesn't cost 2 thousand dollars for an engineer on this. We've paid structural engineers to inspect properties for about 200 to 300 bucks, and was hoping I could use the same kind of service.





Do you have a local code officer and will this be inspected. Usually they are pretty good about telling you how they want to see things.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Yodaman said:


> Do you have a local code officer and will this be inspected. Usually they are pretty good about telling you how they want to see things.


We don't have any permits or inspections here in Pawnee County Oklahoma. There is no local code person to use here. It has its advantages, and apparently its disadvantages.

Bummer about your signature, I liked it.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> No. once you have the top of that wall section built out to 2x6, you will add another rafter like 2x4 for dry wall to go to, then you add more nails to the catwalks and you would add a few more 6 footers from the gable into the trusses to better tie everything together.
> 
> 
> But joins in the catwalk should over lap by 2 ft. none missing.


We definitely have the catwalk overlapped by 2 foot every run. Not sure I'm quite understanding all the 6 footers you're talking about, but maybe I can find some video or tutorial somewhere.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> We definitely have the catwalk overlapped by 2 foot every run. Not sure I'm quite understanding all the 6 footers you're talking about, but maybe I can find some video or tutorial somewhere.


Short catwalks from the new wall back into the roof structure is usually done when the gable is scissor. That is done because that would be the bending point and they make I think the mentioned box. As you likely will be putting in tall studs, you will have the same effect.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I think you should take a deep breath, we have understood the problem from the fourth or fifth post in this thread, and now you are talking like you are the only one that understands it, like we don't.
> Just to be clear both end wall are subject to a bending point at the 8 ft.
> eight. So in certain conditions they could fold in or out.
> 
> ...


I never wrote others didn't understand the issue, I'm just trying to help.

We figured out the cable won't work when the OP said there was no internal wall that spans the length of the building.. the gable walls can still be pushed in and out as an assembly, the cable concept is of no use on this structure, as designed.

As for "his last thread" I have no idea what you are talking about? Your thread count indicates you are on this site a lot, I'm not.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> I never wrote others didn't understand the issue, I'm just trying to help.
> 
> We figured out the cable won't work when the OP said there was no internal wall that spans the length of the building.. the gable walls can still be pushed in and out as an assembly, the cable concept is of no use on this structure, as designed.
> 
> As for "his last thread" I have no idea what you are talking about? Your thread count indicates you are on this site a lot, I'm not.


 You might have found this in post 29. 
QUOTE=Yodaman;5765377]I assumed this was just a drywall nailer.


Here is the link for the other thread, post 73 has some cross bracing pics

https://www.diychatroom.com/f19/scissor-truss-permanent-bracing-644911/index5/[/QUOTE]


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> I never wrote others didn't understand the issue, I'm just trying to help.
> 
> We figured out the cable won't work when the OP said there was no internal wall that spans the length of the building.. the gable walls can still be pushed in and out as an assembly, the cable concept is of no use on this structure, as designed.
> 
> As for "his last thread" I have no idea what you are talking about? Your thread count indicates you are on this site a lot, I'm not.


I took a little offence to be told I wasn't reading your information by you who had not been keeping up with the discussion and reading posts by others.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

@Nealtw I saw your post you went and looked at the other thread and was happy with the truss bracing. I jumped in when the bracing for the gable was proposed as catastrophic. I do agree where its now headed with the tall verticals in the gable, but I qualified it as "that's where the engineer will prob take you." Meaning I don't want to give specifics because that engineer may want more than 2 verticals, maybe doubled, maybe full height or to even a horizontal beam somewhere across that flat studded gable that is then hit back to the truss bracing. I mirror the conservativeness his engineer might have in light of the common problems bracing this "capped" end.
@timkoupe I commend you for jumping in and learning so much, this spits hard even on a simple structure. I just mention a bunch of methods that your engineer could pick from depending on his solution. The wall bracing I keep throwing in is because this failure is not necessarily from wind load just on this gable, but wind hitting the roof and other end twisting the structure. No offense, but once you stated not knowing the need for sheathing or how you can't physically push the wall, I just want to put in your head for the engineer to check the walls. He may want some more diagonals (vert or horiz) in concert with his solution for the gable end.

Basically, I don't know why the truss drawings didn't address the end bracing and am surprised a few of you are sticking your neck out with such detail in this particular case.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I took a little offence to be told I wasn't reading your information by you who had not been keeping up with the discussion and reading posts by others.


You're doubling down?

It's easy to understand how you have over 19,000 posts. The link I posted was from an Engineering Company on topic and informative for the OP, it's entitled _Is it acceptable to place a scissor truss adjacent to a flat bottomed gable on an exterior wall?_ 

and you responded....



Nealtw said:


> I am sure this is helpful in somebodies world. :sad:


If that offends you, you didn't read the article. It's not just helpful in somebodies world... it is spot on related to what the OP is asking us to help with.

https://www.mitek-us.com/uploadedFi...tech-articles/design-tips/Gable End Hinge.pdf


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> Basically, I don't know why the truss drawings didn't address the end bracing and am surprised a few of you are sticking your neck out with such detail in this particular case.



I was ignorant of this problem with flat gable and I am guessing that in all the years of doing trusses we must never have got a flat bottom gable. 
The people selling them should have known better, they are called engineered for a reason. 
The very absolute worst case is he will have to run a stud up beside all the uprights in the gable, so he would end up with the full height studs with a 2 ply fire stop at eight feet. I think he as enough information to have an educated discussion with the engineer. He doesn't need inspections so he won't need a written report from the engineer or a second inspection so it should just be a few hundred dollars. 


Hopefully everyone here in the future will know to say no you can't uses that flat bottom end gable. :wink2:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> You're doubling down?
> 
> It's easy to understand how you have over 19,000 posts. The link I posted was from an Engineering Company on topic and informative for the OP, it's entitled _Is it acceptable to place a scissor truss adjacent to a flat bottomed gable on an exterior wall?_
> 
> ...


I understand that you posted that when you understood what the real problem was. We had already been into that discussion for a whole page of posts so your information in that post is correct but it was not news to others following the thread. It was built one way instead of the correct way, the discussion was about changing it back to the proper construction.
That will be done by letting in tall studs, the only question is how many.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I was ignorant of this problem with flat gable


You weren't ignorant. Even though you were trying to word it nicely with the "cards construction" comment way back your instincts were right on the money. :detective:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3onthetree said:


> You weren't ignorant. Even though you were trying to word it nicely with the "cards construction" comment way back your instincts were right on the money. :detective:


 That comment was more about the order things are built compared to what we do here. Not that the end product is better or worse.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> I understand that you posted that when you understood what the real problem was.


When I understood.. ugh.

Here's a screen shot from a discussion I had with a fella in May of 2018 on another forum about the same issue.

Lots of folks make this mistake....


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> When I understood.. ugh.
> 
> Here's a screen shot from a discussion I had with a fella in May of 2018 on another forum about the same issue.
> 
> Lots of folks make this mistake.


 So you new right from wrong when you looked at the thread last year. 
You made a comment about having an engineers, it is too bad you maybe didn't notice the wrong gable, that would have been a better time to discover the mistake. :wink2:


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> So you new right from wrong when you looked at the thread last year.
> You made a comment about having an engineers, it is too bad you maybe didn't notice the wrong gable, that would have been a better time to discover the mistake. :wink2:


Like I said earlier, you're the one with over 19,000 posts. I just stop in from time to time to try to help people.

But with folks like you criticizing people that are just trying to help.. why bother.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> Like I said earlier, you're the one with over 19,000 posts. I just stop in from time to time to try to help people.
> 
> But with folks like you criticizing people that are just trying to help.. why bother.


 Excuse me, this started with you criticising me about not reading your post.
Yes I spend some time here helping people but until now I was not aware of this problem with the flat gable.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Excuse me, this started with you criticising me about not reading your post.
> Yes I spend some time here helping people but until now I was not aware of this problem with the flat gable.


For pitty sake, at least be honest.



Nealtw said:


> I am sure this is helpful in somebodies world. :sad:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> For pitty sake, at least be honest.


Yes and if where paying attention you would have known you would have known we were are aware of the problem.
But I did forget about that remark I made.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Yes and if where paying attention you would have known you would have known we were are aware of the problem.


That's ironic... schooling me on paying attention...



Nealtw said:


> But I did forget about that remark I made.


then saying you weren't paying attention.

I was paying attention. Clarity and credentials matter. I link to other documents a lot when I post in forums. 

Why? 

Because if the link is from a reputable source it gives the reader / OP of the thread something credible, data he can share with, in this case, the structural Engineer he is going to talk with. As opposed to telling the Engineer he got the information from some faceless, nameless, person on an internet DIY forum. In matters of safety and treasure, such as this one, the credentials of the source of information would seem prudent.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

I just want to say I appreciate everyone helping out here. Sorry there's been some ruffled feathers but all of you are smart folks and should be proud of your knowledge and helping people with it. I thank you, very much.

You can laugh at me if you want, but part of this house project is a life experiment here. I needed to be challenged. I needed to do this. It's crazy, and I don't know how to explain it. Maybe it's a toxic masculinity thing...but I needed to do this. I wanted to build a house and I wanted to be able to cite forums and Youtube as sources. I wanted to demonstrate to my kids, and myself, that we can still go back to our roots, build our own things - we don't have to have a mortgage and be a cubicle slave for 30 years to pay for it. We don't have to be soft and perfect, everything nice and easy, delicate and uneventful, boring wasted existence of cookie cutter mentality, everyone doing the same thing, the same way, the same color, the same shape, the same...always the same. 

So..I got myself in a pickle. I'll dig my way out. It's still better than having you professionals build it and me go back and forth to my cube farm job paying a thousand bucks a month til I'm almost retirement age. I feel more alive and more proud of myself, even after this major screw up of mine. I've never been more confident and walked with more swagger. It feels good. 

There are no truss drawings because we didn't have them designed. We went to Lowe's and bought them after they entered our house plans at the pro center. Yes, I should have. Yes, I have learned my lesson. No, it's too late on this house though. 

Engineer will be coming in first part of March. I talked with him for about 20 minutes this morning. It will be about 600 bucks for him to come out and look at everything. It's all exposed so it will be easy for him to look at everything. He said the fix will be overkill, that we can be confident in and we'll have engineering docs to support it as well. If he has to bring in a truss engineer, the price will go up to 1500 to 1800 bucks. He said it doesn't sound like it will come to that, but anything is possible.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Sorry, when I said $2000 I was thinking of that anything is possible. It's just that my diy budget, when underestimated, usually turns out lot more.:smile: It's been like somebody telling me, more is better.:smile:


I'm sure you know but let the engineer do his work and don't start with your ideas.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Update. Well, a minor one....this is still playing out....

My wife is handling this because I'm stuck at work all day and she's like a pit bull anyway. She went straight to the truss manufacturer and they have no idea what she's talking about. Sending flat bottom gable trusses with scissor trusses..."that's what we always do". 

Wow. So, she's taking pictures of this document here in this thread so they can go look it up and get caught up on this. Now...I realize the truss company is different than the truss engineer. Maybe the engineer knows this stuff, but he works for a stupid company. I don't know...but I'm having a hard time having faith in their engineers when the company doesn't know how wrong this is. 

This means builders are out there buying gable trusses that they don't use, so waste of money and I doubt that. Or, they are actually installing these gable trusses and don't realize they're building hinged walls that can move and fail against lateral loads. I'm shocked, really. 

I will keep up with the updates if anyone is interested...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Update. Well, a minor one....this is still playing out....
> 
> My wife is handling this because I'm stuck at work all day and she's like a pit bull anyway. She went straight to the truss manufacturer and they have no idea what she's talking about. Sending flat bottom gable trusses with scissor trusses..."that's what we always do".
> 
> ...


 See post 19 on this page. 
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125622


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> See post 19 on this page.
> https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125622


My money's on the engineer specifying the use of 2x6's instead of a 2x4's. 

Hell-For-Stout.. for very little price difference.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> My money's on the engineer specifying the use of 2x6's instead of a 2x4's.
> 
> Hell-For-Stout.. for very little price difference.


 I agree, it was just a reference to what someone else had done. But yes 2x6 for sure. :wink2:


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

If this ends up being the solution, then yes, 2 x 6's all the way. I would have to cut all the way through the 2 x 6 top plate anyway to get the full height studs next to the gable studs to nail them in. Might as well double the strength and create a flush wall for drywall all in one step. 

I suppose though that you could attach the full height studs to the gable studs in other ways that wouldn't require notching all the way through the top plate.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

You know, thinking about it some more...it would actually make more sense to just notch the top plates to the *face* of the gable frame studs, no? 

That would leave the gable frame intact, and leaves 1.5" of top plate material on the side that's already sheathed and sided, and simply use a metal strap across the notch like you would do if you had a big plumbing pipe to notch for. I could go with the doubled up 2 x 4's instead of 2 x 6 since the notch depth would only be 4" max, and use some kind of simpson fastener and engineered screws to attach the full length doubled up 2 x 4 studs to the gable studs, and simply nail it off to the wall studs. 

Or I could nail cleats to the gable studs and then nail off the full height studs to those. 

Or I could actually just rip down 2 x 6 studs to 4" wide...damn that would be a waste.

Anyway, even though it's a hassle, I would think that would be a better approach to keep the top plate stronger on the exterior side of the wall and still get the strength of full height studs being doubled up. 

By the way...wouldn't I essentially copy what that guy did in the links you all have been pasting in, and build a top plate - that matches the pitch of the bottom chord of the adjacent scissor truss - up on the gable truss/frame and the full height studs are built to that point? Instead of going to the top chord roof line?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> You know, thinking about it some more...it would actually make more sense to just notch the top plates to the *face* of the gable frame studs, no?
> 
> That would leave the gable frame intact, and leaves 1.5" of top plate material on the side that's already sheathed and sided, and simply use a metal strap across the notch like you would do if you had a big plumbing pipe to notch for. I could go with the doubled up 2 x 4's instead of 2 x 6 since the notch depth would only be 4" max, and use some kind of simpson fastener and engineered screws to attach the full length doubled up 2 x 4 studs to the gable studs, and simply nail it off to the wall studs.
> 
> ...


I would cut the bottom cord , you are beside the up right and nail the stud to the up right all the up, you have support and if you go right to the roof, the top cord is supported, then you just nail a 2x4 on for the ceiling.


But that guy did do it with 2 double 2x4s, so I can't say it wouldn't work.
His engineer had him go nuts with flat straps which might have made sense to have them just across the cut.
But you could put a flat strap on the side of your 2x4 centered on the top of the wall to give it more at the bending point. 


If you do it with 2x4 you finish the top wall by nailing 2x6 to the rest of the uprights and just notch those to go around that bottom cord, they just have to be above the height of the ceiling and then just nail a 2x4 across them for the ceiling.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

I think I agree with you, Neal. I'm still a little worried about cutting all the way through the top plate because I'm afraid the engineer will make me strap both sides of the plate which means tearing off siding and sheathing and that's a full blown nightmare. 


The part that's really bothering me though is I still don't get all of the connections from the ceiling diaphragm to the gable wall. Once I get full height studs from the bottom plate to the top of the gable frame, I'll have a strong wall that doesn't hinge anymore. 

Where all do I make connections from the ceiling bracing to the wall? Is there a video or a step by step I can read or go through? 

This is the kind of detail that's hard to find...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I think I agree with you, Neal. I'm still a little worried about cutting all the way through the top plate because I'm afraid the engineer will make me strap both sides of the plate which means tearing off siding and sheathing and that's a full blown nightmare.
> 
> 
> The part that's really bothering me though is I still don't get all of the connections from the ceiling diaphragm to the gable wall. Once I get full height studs from the bottom plate to the top of the gable frame, I'll have a strong wall that doesn't hinge anymore.
> ...


 The cross strapping you are thinking about is why I suggested the hangers to hold the wall together. I have never had to strap both sides.

I did stretch but lost it in the files somewhere and I will try to find it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

See here that that I have added 2x6s to all the uprights in the truss.
Then I have added a 2x4 which will be in line with the lower cords of the scissors and will be your ceiling 
And then I added more short 6 ft catwalks to connect the wall to the rest of the trusses.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

I see what you're doing there. Just a couple full height studs to straighten and unhinge the wall, then the rest of them are to finish out the upper wall and only run from the top plate up past the ceiling a little bit - then use 2 x 4's to create the slopped ceiling in line with the bottom chords of the scissors. 

Ok...now the cat walks you added are to provide multiple points of contact for that wall to the ceiling diaphragm. Am I supposed to nail those catwalk 2 x 4's down into the ceiling 2 x 4's from the step / paragraph above? It kind of looks like that's how you've drawn the lines, but I wasn't sure.

I ask, because I thought we always wanted our nails perpendicular to the load since their strength is in shear. Those 2 x 4's that form the ceiling will be nailed in in-line with lateral loading, so if I try to use them to brace the gable wall, it could actually pull the nails straight out of it.


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

This thread has been an enlightening read. Sorry it's at your expense Tim.
Well, obviously you're going to have to do whatever the engineer prescribes, but there may be a silver lining possible here. If you're putting in new studs and they're set off the lower sheathing by 1 1/2" (and sistered to the lower existing studs) it might give you the opportunity to use 2x6 and make this wall a little thicker to get additional R value with 7 1/4" batts used in 2x8 walls.
Maybe that's a stretch, but I was trying to come up with something positive out of all this.


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> If corner bracing is needed, why don't I see it anywhere? I've walked new housing additions being built, 2K and 3K square foot, 2 story houses made from 2 x 4's, usually 9 foot walls, and none of them have any of this...
> If standard platform framing doesn't work here, then where?


Under standard platform framing the floor structure is the corner bracing just like how the sheathing is the shear bracing. Kind of like how a cardboard box is pretty strong when it's a cube taped up, but folds easily once you cut that tape. 
When making "great rooms" the wall is balloon framed so no hinge point.
Anecdotally, and not a suggestion here, is that I once had a similar scenario with a longer wall that needed a wide entry cut into it. There was a concern about creating a hinge point so what we did was inset the doors a couple feet into the building and build what was essentially a torsion box over the doors running from end to end. You can imagine this as a mini floor that tied the walls together and kept the center from bowing out.
Gable trusses are not inherently evil. They're just fine where you have attic space to angle brace them from the bottom up to where the other trusses meet the roof.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

So I'm looking at a similar fix related to that thread on garage journal. 

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410242&page=2 

Post #30 shows the pictures of his fix. It's all very similar to mine. 2 x 6 walls (5.5") with a gable end frame adjacent to scissor trusses. He chose to notch 3.5" into his 5.5" top plates and install a single 2x4 full height stud flush to the inside of the wall - this means those full height studs are not nailed off into the gable studs. In fact, they sit about 1/2" in front of them, leaving a space there of about a 1/2". 

Instead, he's built the top wall drywall-frame flush to the inside, which is what creates that 1/2" of space behind it. It looks like he's installed a top plate nailed into blocks that have been nailed to the bottom chord of the last scissor truss on one end and nailed down into the top plate on the other end. 


So...I guess he's created a wall out of the new angled top plate (in line with the ceiling bottom truss chords) and bottom plate with full height studs. 

I have questions: 

1) I guess this new wall's only real purpose is to eliminate the hinge problem, so no sheathing or further structural bracing is required? 

2) The gable frame doesn't need to be anchored to it somehow? The sheathing is attached to it, so I would think it would need to be better attached to this full height wall fix.

3) Why isn't a double top plate required? 

4) Shouldn't those short little blocks he's using to attach the last scissor truss to the new full height wall really be 6' catwalks so it's braced to more than one truss?

5) How does the new angled top plate cut and attach to the corners where it meets the wall double top plates?


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> I have questions:
> 
> 1) I guess this new wall's only real purpose is to eliminate the hinge problem, so no sheathing or further structural bracing is required?


It's not a new wall... it's the same wall, just with new 2x4's (See note below) that span the entire height.



timkoupe said:


> I have questions:
> 
> 2) The gable frame doesn't need to be anchored to it somehow? The sheathing is attached to it, so I would think it would need to be better attached to this full height wall fix.


It is attached. The existing gable vertical 2x4's attach to the new 2x4's. (See note below)



timkoupe said:


> I have questions:
> 
> 3) Why isn't a double top plate required?


I would make it a double top plate.



timkoupe said:


> I have questions:
> 
> 4) Shouldn't those short little blocks he's using to attach the last scissor truss to the new full height wall really be 6' catwalks so it's braced to more than one truss?


You could do that. Splicing is ok, but the splices should overlap two trusses.



timkoupe said:


> I have questions:
> 
> 5) How does the new angled top plate cut and attach to the corners where it meets the wall double top plates?


I would use a Simpson ST6236 14-Gauge 33-13/16 in. Strap Tie. Bend it in a vise to fit the angle, lay it in place and cut it to length if needed, then screw it with Simpson structural screws.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson...-in-Strap-Tie-ST6236/100375065?keyword=ST6236

Note: As I mentioned in that thread, (1) 2x6 is nearly twice as strong as sistered 2x4's. I'd have used 2x6's.

*I'd still get buy in from the Engineer. Run this all by him, then let him provide you with his fix. Then you'll have dwg's to back up the fix.*


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I have questions:


Tim, I didn't get to see the pictures on that thread you linked, so my answer here is more a general one...just because someone has implemented a solution doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct. 


timkoupe said:


> 1) I guess this new wall's only real purpose is to eliminate the hinge problem, so no sheathing or further structural bracing is required?


I'd think that the new full height studs would connect to the gable truss tying the whole wall together. The sheathing is for shear in the other plane, so while attaching the new studs to the sheathing would be nice, it's not the main problem that the new studs are correcting for.


timkoupe said:


> 2) The gable frame doesn't need to be anchored to it somehow? The sheathing is attached to it, so I would think it would need to be better attached to this full height wall fix.


Totally should be connected. If the sistered full height studs run up against the gable studs, you can toe nail, screw, strap, or use a number of connections there. 


timkoupe said:


> 3) Why isn't a double top plate required?


Double top plates are mostly for corner connections where walls intersect. They do add some stiffness horizontally so you could (and should) double up in this instance for that benefit especially since you're cutting into the plate between the truss and lower wall. 


timkoupe said:


> 4) Shouldn't those short little blocks he's using to attach the last scissor truss to the new full height wall really be 6' catwalks so it's braced to more than one truss?


Can't tell what he's got, but yeah, the more connecting trusses the stronger it will be. 


timkoupe said:


> 5) How does the new angled top plate cut and attach to the corners where it meets the wall double top plates?


There's a lot of ways to do this. It will depend on what kind of access you have, or what kind of access you're willing to create. 

Of course, disclaimer time: ALL OF THIS IS JUST SPECULATION. THE ONLY REAL SOLUTION IS THE ONE YOUR ENGINEER PRESCRIBES.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

HenryMac said:


> It's not a new wall... it's the same wall, just with new 2x4's (See note below) that span the entire height.


Well I realize it's two walls, I'm speaking in terms of structural conception here. It looks like a new full height wall notched in to the original wall that has a hinge at the center of it. 

He notched out 3.5" of a 5.5" top plate and put full height studs into a new sloped top plate, like what you'd build if you started from scratch and you were raking the wall to the bottom chord of a scissor truss used on the gable in the first place. 

So it looks like a new full height wall has essentially been constructed within the previous hinged wall. Like you could take the gable frame, rip it off and throw it in the yard and the remaining wall is just fine. It seems to be tied into the new top plate which is tied to the truss system with those blocks at the top - it doesn't look like it needs anything from the gable frame at all. 



HenryMac said:


> It is attached. The existing gable vertical 2x4's attach to the new 2x4's. (See note below)


Man, I'm just not seeing that in the pics. He has a picture of the notch itself before a 2x4 gets slid in, and you can see that notch is 1/2" from the gable frame still. So when it slides in, it is standing off the gable studs by 1/2". I don't see where it attaches to the gable studs anywhere. 



HenryMac said:


> I would use a Simpson ST6236 14-Gauge 33-13/16 in. Strap Tie. Bend it in a vise to fit the angle, lay it in place and cut it to length if needed, then screw it with Simpson structural screws.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson...-in-Strap-Tie-ST6236/100375065?keyword=ST6236
> 
> ...


I may need to just read up on gable wall balloon framing and see how the top plates tie into each other at the corners. I'm more interested in the cuts and how the pieces orient to each other there. They go to a lot of trouble to explain how the top plates overlap at intersections and etc, so I just imagine there's some rules on how that works at corners when intersecting with angled gable plates.


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> He notched out 3.5" of a 5.5" top plate and put full height studs into a new sloped top plate, like what you'd build if you started from scratch and you were raking the wall to the bottom chord of a scissor truss used on the gable in the first place.


That "top plate" at 8' is no longer really a top plate once you have full height studs running through it. It's essentially just blocking at that point.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> Man, I'm just not seeing that in the pics.


Looks tight to me? The reality is you may have some gaps though. Rip some plywood, slip it in the space, and run some nails or better yet structural screws through it.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391640&page=5


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

HenryMac said:


> Looks tight to me? The reality is you may have some gaps though. Rip some plywood, slip it in the space, and run some nails or better yet structural screws through it.
> 
> https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391640&page=5


Yeah, see this is why I kept referring to the actual size of the materials...5.5" top plate, 1.5" gable frame depth (since gable studs are faced opposite from wall studs), so that leaves 4" of space. Notch 3.5" to fit a 2x4 in there and you have a 1/2" gap still left. There is nothing in those pictures that indicates filling that space and nailing things together. I just don't see it.

That matters too because that tells me he didn't attach the gable frame to any of these studs - full height studs nor the drywall-studs. Rather he connected the new angled top plates to the full height studs and then down in the bottom plate and formed a whole new wall - that was then braced to the last scissor truss. That's what I was getting at. 

And *that* made me wonder about the sheathing...the sheathing is attached to the "hinged wall", not the "new full height wall". The bottom 8 feet is great, as the "new wall" is directly attached to it and its studs - but the top gable frame is not. 

It has all the shear structural support from the sheathing, but that has not been transferred to the top half of the "new wall" - that top half doesn't really bond with the gable, so it's not receiving the structural benefit of the gable's sheathing. 

In other words...from what I'm seeing the gable frame can bend and flex independent of the "new wall" that is correcting the hinge and bracing issue - and that's the frame that has the sheathing we're depending on. Maybe that's ok...I'm just pointing it out.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

NotYerUncleBob2 said:


> That "top plate" at 8' is no longer really a top plate once you have full height studs running through it. It's essentially just blocking at that point.


Exactly. That's why I like these solutions that involve creating a new top plate. Just notching the original wall top plate and inserting full height studs doesn't seem like enough, no matter how many you use. It's just blocks in the wall. 

Without a top plate, if you removed the sheathing on this house 20 years from now for a repair....wow, I'm not sure the wall would stay together.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Exactly. That's why I like these solutions that involve creating a new top plate. Just notching the original wall top plate and inserting full height studs doesn't seem like enough, no matter how many you use. It's just blocks in the wall.
> 
> Without a top plate, if you removed the sheathing on this house 20 years from now for a repair....wow, I'm not sure the wall would stay together.


 The total of scissor trusses hold the outside straight and the sheeting on top hold it's shape in a rectangle shape so that would resist the corners from bending out, The sheeting is structural and you would not remove all the sheets at one time and with balloon framing they never remove the gable sheeting at the same time as the rest of the sheeting. 


Early in this thread some one suggested they never use a truss here, they just build a full height balloon frame wall.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


> The total of scissor trusses hold the outside straight and the sheeting on top hold it's shape in a rectangle shape so that would resist the corners from bending out, The sheeting is structural and you would not remove all the sheets at one time and with balloon framing they never remove the gable sheeting at the same time as the rest of the sheeting.
> 
> 
> Early in this thread some one suggested they never use a truss here, they just build a full height balloon frame wall.


I guess that makes sense. Are you saying to just nail up the full height studs to the top chord of the gable truss without a top plate up there? Or were you assuming I'd be installing a new top plate system up there?



In the future, I'm thinking a full height balloon framed wall is the way to go. Even raking the wall under a scissor gable truss seems like a waste - you're just building the wall shorter so you can spend 200 bucks on the last few feet. Seems like a full height wall to the roof line would be the strongest, too.

But I read somewhere that people find that very unsafe to raise the wall in to place. For some reason they said they felt building it to the bottom chord of a scissor truss was safer.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Nealtw said:


>


It is fascinating how this issue is so prevalent. I'm seriously wondering how many compromised homes there are out there. 

Just google "scissor trusses" and look at images....just scroll through and you see one after another...gable frames with scissor trusses everywhere. 

Now they get pretty fancy pretty quickly, and I can't tell if some of those gable trusses are actually problems or if there's some other engineering going on that makes them ok. 

Scissor trusses are just sexy, though. I want exposed ones for my cabin. Not sure how to handle the roof system with those kind, though.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

timkoupe said:


> Exactly. That's why I like these solutions that involve creating a new top plate. Just notching the original wall top plate and inserting full height studs doesn't seem like enough, no matter how many you use. It's just blocks in the wall.
> 
> Without a top plate, if you removed the sheathing on this house 20 years from now for a repair....wow, I'm not sure the wall would stay together.





Several post back some one suggested building another 2x4 full length wall inside of the existing. This would keep the top plate in tact and correct the hinge issue. Also give you space for more insulation.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> I guess that makes sense. Are you saying to just nail up the full height studs to the top chord of the gable truss without a top plate up there? Or were you assuming I'd be installing a new top plate system up there?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We never see the plans and the exact dimensions of the trusses before we have them sitting on the wall ready to stand so building a wall ahead of time would be telephone tag with the supplier, having the scissor would allow us to finish the roof all in one go and we are usually working on a schedule of when the roofer is going to arrive so I would always want the scissor. The connection of the catwalks at ceiling height is the upper support for wind resistance because the roof assembly is very strong. 
Some one talked about the roof being a box.  So you are really just looking for stiffness between the ground and that box. 


Now you could still build it with a top plate 
You would add the 2x4 against the wall that would be just below the catwalks at ceiling height under that you would add the 2x6 top plate notched out to fit around the uprights in the truss and then fill in the 2x6 wall .
For the ceiling then you would add 2x4 blocks from truss one to the top of the top plate 24" on center.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Yodaman said:


> Several post back some one suggested building another 2x4 full length wall inside of the existing. This would keep the top plate in tact and correct the hinge issue. Also give you space for more insulation.


Yes, I remember. It may still end up being the solution. It's just not top of the list since I would still need to build new top plates anyway, and I already have 2 x 6 walls and the insulation for them. To do this solution means new bottom plates too, drilling and anchoring them, all that mess. 

I may still have to go there. We'll just see. Right now, if it ends up being ok to notch out my existing top plates, essentially turning them into blocks in the wall, and I have to build new angled top plates, then I'd rather just notch them in and get on with my life.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> Yes, I remember. It may still end up being the solution. It's just not top of the list since I would still need to build new top plates anyway, and I already have 2 x 6 walls and the insulation for them. To do this solution means new bottom plates too, drilling and anchoring them, all that mess.
> 
> I may still have to go there. We'll just see. Right now, if it ends up being ok to notch out my existing top plates, essentially turning them into blocks in the wall, and I have to build new angled top plates, then I'd rather just notch them in and get on with my life.


 Actually you would not have to anchor them you would just span to the other wall with blocks and you would tie the new to the old with 1/2 inch plywood on the sides of the studs, you just make the door and window openings about 8" bigger on the inside wall so they are recessed like they might be in a basement.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

timkoupe said:


> In other words...from what I'm seeing the gable frame can bend and flex independent of the "new wall" that is correcting the hinge and bracing issue - and that's the frame that has the sheathing we're depending on. Maybe that's ok...I'm just pointing it out.


I'm following you now. :wink2:

So would you agree that the new sistered studs, that nail to the existing 8 ft studs would be rigid, since the gable truss is attached to the wall top plate at the 8 ft level?

Now, attach the new top plate, to the gable vertical 2x4's using Simpson Z-MAX 2 in. x 4 in. 12-Gauge Galvanized Medium L-Angles.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson...uge-Galvanized-Medium-L-Angle-ML24Z/202071147

That should be very stout.... agreed?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Did you ever get the engineers recommendations?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

timkoupe said:


> It is fascinating how this issue is so prevalent. I'm seriously wondering how many compromised homes there are out there.
> 
> Just google "scissor trusses" and look at images....just scroll through and you see one after another...gable frames with scissor trusses everywhere.
> 
> ...


 I find it amazing how many you find on line built just like yours. 
for the cabin, you just continue thru with the trusses and build the wall last.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> I'm following you now. :wink2:
> 
> So would you agree that the new sistered studs, that nail to the existing 8 ft studs would be rigid, since the gable truss is attached to the wall top plate at the 8 ft level?
> 
> ...


 That is what I was talking about in 145 but I would put the top plate below the ceiling but that likely is not all that important either way.


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## DIYOkie (Jun 27, 2013)

Yodaman said:


> Did you ever get the engineers recommendations?


He's meeting us in mid March. Engineer availability in this area has been a surprising twist as well. No one is reviewed and most seem to work on commercial, so I went with the guy with the best reviews and he seemed great over the phone. So we'll see...


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