# help with wiring ceiling fan from a switch controlled outlet



## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Open up the box the switch is in so that you can look inside. If there is just one 14/2 coming in then you will have to run the 14/2 from the outlet up to where you are installing the fan. If there are two, and the whites are together and blacks going through the switch you can come from either box up to your fan. Whichever happens to be easier.

You are working with a finished wall and ceiling I suppose? What is above the ceiling? Attic or another floor?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

First off you should NEVER listen to the "kid" at HD. How the hell did he know you needed 14/2????

First, turn off the breaker. At the receptacle wire it in a typical fashion, whites to silver screws, blacks to gold screws (also let's assume everything is grounded from here on). If the receptacle was half switched before you will need to replace it with a new one. Heck, replace it anyway.
Now the wire at the switch box is a constant feed. I would run a "3-wire" (12/3, 14/3) from the switch box to the new fan fan in case you ever want to control a fan/light with separate switches. Match the wire size to what is existing.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> First off you should NEVER listen to the "kid" at HD. How the hell did he know you needed 14/2????
> 
> First, turn off the breaker. At the receptacle wire it in a typical fashion, whites to silver screws, blacks to gold screws (also let's assume everything is grounded from here on). If the receptacle was half switched before you will need to replace it with a new one. Heck, replace it anyway.
> Now the wire at the switch box is a constant feed. I would run a "3-wire" (12/3, 14/3) from the switch box to the new fan fan in case you ever want to control a fan/light with separate switches. Match the wire size to what is existing.


If the fan has no light, removing the switched plug means he's gotta turn his lamp on the "hard" way.


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

well i checked b4 i removed the outlet and its got open ground


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

Sorry, I missed the part of him wanting the outlet constantly hot. :whistling2:

Hard to read these things with no paragraph structure :wink:

Do what speedy petey said.


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

i don't know how this works the whole forum thing so i don't know if i was supposed to do quick reply or not but there is an open ground on theis outlet i don't know if this makes a difference and what does half switched mean


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

If half the outlet is currently switched (meaning one half is always on) then in order for the outlet to work fully as a non-switched or always on outlet you will either need to replace it or wire two hots to the outlet to power up both halves. If the whole outlet was switched on and off then you should have nothing to worry about. Open ground is not a good situation, is there actually a ground wire in the box or is the box metal? Also, did you test the outlet before you removed the outlet from the wall or was it out of the wall at the time? Some people who use metal boxes/conduit tend to rely on the metal frame of the outlet to ground through the screws, there really should be a ground wire to the box in this case (provided the box is metal of course).

Btw, you can use reply or quick reply, it doesn't matter.


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

i beleive i tested it when i unscrewed it.yes it is a metal box.i spoke with a buddy last night and he told me to wire the outlet like normal and run the hot up to the switch and then run the nuetral straight up to the new fan then from the fan run the 14/3 back down to the new switch. does that sound right.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

teamster807 said:


> i spoke with a buddy last night and he told me to wire the outlet like normal and run the hot up to the switch and then run the nuetral straight up to the new fan then from the fan run the 14/3 back down to the new switch. does that sound right.


HUH? No, that sounds dangerous.
You MUST keep the hot and neutral together in a circuit.

If you splice the receptacle through as normal you should have hot and neutral 120v in the switch box. Just run a 14/3 up to the fan from the switch.


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

will i be able to control jst the light then and the outlet will be always hot, sorry i feel stupid right now


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

is there any way someone can give me a diagram of what it will look like


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I believe Speedy is wanting this.....


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

SWEET! :thumbsup:


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

Teamster807, Here's another drawing, showing the power coming into the switch box first (there are a couple of ways a switched outlet/receptacle can be wired. There's one more that involves a "switch loop" but that'll only make things more confusing...)
http://www.electrical-online.com/wiringaswitchedoutletsp1.htm .
As Stubbie points out, you should run a three wire from the switch to the fan. Usually the fan is wired so the light is controlled by either a blue or black with white, striped wire. 
Turn the power off (at the panel/fuse box) before starting this project. 
Make sure you install a box that's made for (rated) mounting ceiling fans. 

You can control the fan/light separately (a switch for each, or a dimmer for the light and a fan speed control for the fan), with a single switch for both (using the pull chains on the fan for control), using a switch (or dimmer) for the light only and pull chain for the fan... pete


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## teamster807 (Aug 3, 2008)

i love you guys man!


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## Melanie337 (Sep 26, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> HUH? No, that sounds dangerous.
> You MUST keep the hot and neutral together in a circuit.


Why is it dangerous to have the hot and neutral run in separate cables if the situation seems to warrant doing it that way. Sorry, it's probably a dumb question, but I'd like to know where the actual danger is? Thank you in advance.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

If I follow correctly whats going on here I am thinking this is feeding the neutral to the fan directly from the outlet (instead of going through the switch box) and then the hot only goes to the switch box where it is then sent up to the fan. Basically creating two separate paths that the electricity must travel on in order for the fan to work properly (a neutral and a hot). Splitting these wires up is not only dangerous but makes absolutely no sense and is extra wire thats being run for no reason. You already have a 2 conductor with ground to the switch box from the outlet, just run one cable of 2 conductor with ground or 3 conductor with ground to the fan from the switch box (this will either be 12 or 14 gauge wire, just match what ever is existing). As for why it is dangerous setup the way you described, I would go with the fact that the power (hot) and the neutral are coming from two different wires (and essentially two spots). A device (fan, light, outlet, etc) should always get the hot and neutral from the same set of wire and should not be derived from another cable.


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## Melanie337 (Sep 26, 2006)

I can appreciate that having the neutral and hot come from 2 different cables is not good wiring practice but, if they are the correct hot and matching neutral, where is the actual danger in having them separated? The statement was made that this is dangerous...so I'm just wondering "why"? Sorry to be a pain.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

The Hot, Neutral, and Ground are together in one wire. if you pierce the wire with a nail or screw, chances are it will short out and trip the breaker. If you pierce the hot if it is run by itself, the nail you pierced the wire with is now hot and if you touch it... it won't feel nice.

That, and if work ever needs to be done in the future, the electrician is going to have a hell of a time figuring out what is going on with the wiring and may make a dangerous mistake. You never know what some people can assume, just like you never know how some people could wire a fan :huh:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Melanie337 said:


> I can appreciate that having the neutral and hot come from 2 different cables is not good wiring practice but, if they are the correct hot and matching neutral, where is the actual danger in having them separated? The statement was made that this is dangerous...so I'm just wondering "why"? Sorry to be a pain.


Not a pain at all, that is a very good question.

If I can add a bit here it may help. The code making panel did indeed include this "all conductors of a circuit must be in the same cable, raceway, cable tray....etc. in article 300... specifically 300.3 (A),(B) and 300.5. The intent was not wiring method or nails it was to reduce inductive heating in parallel conductors. This is a rather complicated theory but around 1990 enough documentation of fires from inductive heating lead to the addition of this section to article 300. Inductive heating tends to be more of an issue in metal raceways and any wiring method incorporating ferrous methods. The only exception to this rule is for equipment grounding conductors which are not normal current carriers for a ac circuit. And even this exception is very limited in its use.

The practice of using inductive heating by intentionally creating the magnetic fields that cause it is quite common for melting processes such as plastics.

No it is not easily created in house wiring at frequencies like 60HZ. However I Squared losses can be a real issue when magnetic fields cause a resistance effect in the magnetic fields if they become "unbalanced". Now I use that term actually out of context but it serves my purpose to easier understand. When the addition of a wire from another circuit comes in contact with the 'balanced' magnetic fields of properly paired (paralleled) conductors of the same circuit the overall field is disrupted (altered) and the result is I squared losses in the form of heat.


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## fungku (Jul 27, 2008)

:laughing: you could probably get a couple of weeks worth of university lectures outta that one


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## Melanie337 (Sep 26, 2006)

Nice job Stubbie! Thanks a million. M :thumbsup:


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## NewGuy1 (Jun 15, 2010)

Feeling dumb but have to ask. Light switch controlls outlet, both top and bottom and would like to attach ceiling fan to exsisting set up. 
-- Outlet has one black attached to bottom rt and has two whites attached to lt side. Also the groung.
-- Light switch has one black on bottom and one white on top. 

I've installed the ceiling fan as manual instructs and ran new romex to switch, black, white, and ground. Reapplied power but no joy, ceiling fan light chain controlled wall outlet ??. 
No attached to having light swith control outlet so If able to bypass that, it would be fine also

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, Thx


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

As the switch box was wired it did not contain a neutral wire. This is called a switch loop. The white was the hot feed to the switch, while the black was the switched hot.


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## NewGuy1 (Jun 15, 2010)

so is it possible to fix this and make the switch operate the ceiling fan by using its black/white/ground ?? Would I have to wire the ceiling fan backwards then black to white and white to black ??


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You will need to change the connections at the receptacle where the cable comes from. you should see a white connected to some blacks. This will need to be removed and spliced to the whites. This will give you a neutral at the switch box. 
At the switch box the white will be removed from the switch and spliced to the white of the new cable.

All grounds must be spliced together and connected to the receptacles and switches.


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## NewGuy1 (Jun 15, 2010)

thx for your help and sorry for my ignorance

- I have a wht and blk coming into the outlet box the wht is connected to the lower port on the outlet and the blk is wire-nutted to a blk and wht, each heading out of the outlet box. 
- A third wht is connected to the upper port of the outlet and the only blk attached to the outlet is heading out of the outlet box that is wire-nutted to its corresponding wht wire 

hope that all makes sense, thx again


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## NewGuy1 (Jun 15, 2010)

at the outlet box, if I connect all the whites then will I have any connected to the outlet itself besides the existing black ??

and again at the switch where the ceiling fan wiring comes in if I connect both whites is there anything connected to the switch also besides the black ??


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The white that is spliced to the blackes needs to be removed and spliced to the other whites. The black will get spliced to the blacks.

At the switch you will have the black hot coming in from the receptacle and the switched black going out to the fan. the whites will splice thru.


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## NewGuy1 (Jun 15, 2010)

sorry again but don't I still require a wht and blk to connect to the outlet, currently one blk lower lt and two wht on rt side of outlet


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

You are only removing the white from the black bundle. The white already on the receptacle stays connected to the receptacle.


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## jfc clean (May 3, 2011)

*what do I do with the white wire?*

What do I do with the white wire that is bundled with the black wires? I have the exact set up as the last person 2 whites on one side 1 black on the other side of outlet.


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## Whotony (Oct 27, 2011)

jfc clean said:


> What do I do with the white wire that is bundled with the black wires? I have the exact set up as the last person 2 whites on one side 1 black on the other side of outlet.


Yes, is anyone still out there. This is my exact dilemma too. Help.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Whotony said:


> Yes, is anyone still out there. This is my exact dilemma too. Help.


What is the problem? What are you trying to do?


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## jfc clean (May 3, 2011)

I put all white wires to each other and all black wires to each other with a black and white wire coming from these bundles to the outlet. :thumbup:


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## Whotony (Oct 27, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> What is the problem? What are you trying to do?


I'm trying to connect a ceiling fan to the room.
I have a switch that controls a socket/receptacle. 
The receptacle has the same thing as described previously.

Two whites connected to one side, one black on the other side.
And separate are three wires capped together, two black and one white.

When I connected the fan to the switch I had the fan controlling the receptacle,in other words when I pulled the chain the fan would turn on and run slowly but the light I had plugged to the wall socket would turn on and off and the strength of the light would go from low to higher as I pulled the chain.

So as with the other person in this topic I'm trying to add a ceiling fan onto a switch that is controlling a socket.

You previously said....


Jim Port----> You are only removing the white from the black bundle. The white already on the receptacle stays connected to the receptacle.

Then someone asked....


jfc clean---> what do I do with the white wire?
What do I do with the white wire that is bundled with the black wires? I have the exact set up as the last person 2 whites on one side 1 black on the other side of outlet.


So in this receptacle were I have three wires Capped together, two black and one white, you said keep the black together and remove the white, what happened to the white and how do I get a ceiling fan in the mix?

I suppose I need to now if I need a specific type of switch or if I should be running the wire from the fan somewhere else other than a switch.

It's all very confusing to me when it seemed like it should be simple.
Hook the black to the black on the switch and hook the white to white and ground to ground.
When I did that nothing worked just the oddness of the fan seeming to partially controlling the receptacle.

Thanks for any help.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

You CANNOT pull power from the switch. The white at the switch is NOT a neutral. You either need to change the splice at the receptacle so that the switch has a hot and neutral feed (this way the receptacle will not long be switched), or pull constant power from the receptacle and use only the chains on the fan.


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## jfc clean (May 3, 2011)

I had the same exact problem. I can take a picture tonight when I get home. I suppose I did waht speedy petey suggested. Switch no longer runs the receptacle. Wire nut all of the white wires at the receptacle to whites, all blacks to black. you should have two sets of wires nutted together- a black set and a white set. I ran a "jumper" wire so to speak out of each wire nut to wire the outlet conventionally.


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## Whotony (Oct 27, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> You CANNOT pull power from the switch. The white at the switch is NOT a neutral. You either need to change the splice at the receptacle so that the switch has a hot and neutral feed (this way the receptacle will not long be switched), or pull constant power from the receptacle and use only the chains on the fan.


Probably end up doing this.



jfc clean said:


> I had the same exact problem. I can take a picture tonight when I get home. I suppose I did waht speedy petey suggested. Switch no longer runs the receptacle. Wire nut all of the white wires at the receptacle to whites, all blacks to black. you should have two sets of wires nutted together- a black set and a white set. I ran a "jumper" wire so to speak out of each wire nut to wire the outlet conventionally.


Jfc, we're did you run the fan to after that, the switch or the receptacle?


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