# Bad Brick Mortar ???



## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

DAGS for tuck pointing....unless you are in the middle of a structural failure, your exterior while durable is not maintenance free. My neighbor has a house that's 6 months old, and the brick mortar has cracked from ever window and door corner.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Are these very cracks recent or they have progressively growing?

How are the bricks supported at the base of the veneer?

What is the construction of the house structure? How many stories?

If you actually have 1/4" cracks, you could have some serious movement. Clay brick does not shrink, so something may have moved or expanded. Since the cracks start at the top of the veneer, this indicates some movement of the frame it self.

Before doing a lot of chipping, routing and tuckpointing has a prefessional determine the cause of the movement.

When you do tuckpoint or have it tuckpointed, make sure the proper mortatr is used. You do not need a cement-rich strong mortar. - Addition: You should not use a strong mortar!!!!!!


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## jkrodger (Jul 10, 2007)

My house also has some cracks in the mortar, especially around windows. It's 82 years old and our inspector took a look at some of the other mortar around it and thinks that the mortar was just poorly mixed. We're just going to tuck point and keep an eye on it to see if those cracks come back.


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Well, the brick crack saga continues! It was three years ago when I saw the crack and filled it with brick repair caulk and it came out really well. Now the crack filler has opened and the cracks are somewhat wider than they were. It starts at the top course of brick at a wall corner which is right at a bathroom window. Extending from the above the left hand corner of the window frame down the entire left side of the window frame, then it goes from one brick course down at least 5 or 6 almost to the concrete slab.
In addition, I now see several other smaller cracks in other sides of the house brick. 
I still don't see how the bricks are giving way, w/o the concrete slab giving?
I am having a couple of foundation repair companies inspect and see what is going on with this.
I sure hope it isn't dealing with the wood frame of the home but I don't want any concrete slab foundation failure either? Which is worse or better?
Please give me some pointers on understanding foundation repair companies.
thanks guys,


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

It sounds like shrinkage cracking to me. Are the brick concrete or clay?


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

The bricks are clay and the white/grey mortar apparently wasn't mixed right when the bricks were laid.
I think it was too sandy and is this what can result from the a bad mortar mix? What exactly is shrinking, the bricks,the mortar or both?
As I had said, the slab appears to be normal, no fracture,vertical hairline cracks? But something is giving way right on the house rear corner, It is only like one or two bricks from the actual corner, the bathroom window is right there and it has moved away from the window frame more, across the frame top and down the entire frame left side(side closest to the corner)
Can I take some digital pictures to post here and get some of your opinions,suggestions?
I want to correct this and also not let this get much worse.
THANK YOU


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Pictures would help a lot.


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

stuart45 said:


> Pictures would help a lot.


 
I just uploaded some foundation problem pics to this forum.

Try this link:

http://www.diychatroom.com/members/kourso-3148/albums/foundation-problems/


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

The brickwork looks really poorly constructed. I always think that poor brickwork reflects on the general standard of workmanship of the property.
The cracking looks more serious than normal moisture/thermal movement.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

stuart45 said:


> The brickwork looks really poorly constructed.


 
It sounds like you're "dogging" my work pal............ 


To the OP: any chance you can get a pic or 2 from a little farther back, getting the entire height of the wall in the frame?


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

During my year down south inspecting property damage after Katrina and Rita, I saw a lot of brick damage very similar to what you have. We traced the problems to several root causes.

In some cases, the mortar mix was portland cement, very strong, and as the house changed dimensions due to normal seasonal variation in temperature and moisture conditions, the mortar would remain intact and the bricks would break.

In some cases, the brick veneer was not attached properly to the wall (there were no brick ties, the wrong brick ties were used, or the brick ties had rusted because the air was salty and they were not galvanized). Failure of the brick ties would almost always lead to cracking of the mortar, brick, or both.

In some cases, there was no provision for movement of the brick, in other words the brick was attached too rigidly to the house, and due to differential movement between the wood framing and the brick, cracks would develop.

Sometimes the brick and mortar cracked due to movement of the foundation. This was common for pier and beam houses, and slab supported houses, expecially over expansive clay soil.

There were numerous causes of the failure, in all cases it required a hands on inspection to determine the root cause. Usually I did a detailed topographic survey of the floor elevation to see if there was any settlement. Occasionally we ran across a house where interior brick was improperly used on the exterior. In a few cases, we were unable to determine the cause of failure.

I suggest you get a hands on examination by a local expert, its going to be very difficult to reach a firm conclusion based on a description and some pictures, although the pictures are good.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Stuart, that is a popular style of jointing in some areas. Unfortunately it tends to crack and leak more often than properly tooled joints.

Regardless, you DO have foundation issues. Concrete is much more flexible than brick and mortar, and that appears to be common and classical corner droop.


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Guys,
First of all THANK YOU for ALL of your opinions, knowledge and expertise in this matter. All of you have valid concerns/points. The brickwork in my own opinion is on the semi poor side, some sections were better than others depending on who was doing what on that brick crew on what day. I do believe it was also some badly mixed mortar batches. The flip side of this is, it was meant to be a "sack finish", kinda like full filled mortar joints with some limited overrun and then mortar is swiped across the whole brick finish. I found out the hard way that it also was done improperly for the most part.
Overall from a distance, the house brick is fairly nice looking. I will find a couple of pics with the new architect shingles and post them soon, so you can give me your thoughts.
Secondly, I don't know how many brick ties they did actually put, but I don't think it was very many at all, very few widely spread out. I believe it is a combination of several factors, river silt/sand fill added to raise elevation 1' right before construction, several hot/dry drought periods 20-40 days @ up to 98-100 degrees, drying out under/around the house. Big Pin Oak tree sucking up ground water immediately in front of my house slab. 
Most of this is happening on the rear of a U shaped house with the longest continuous run of concrete with brickwall and the biggest crack/break is within 1 1/2 ft. from the corner/end wall.
There was also a fairly large Gum tree that fell within 20' off to the side of that corner break area during a hurricane and I am sure it had some impact, that could have jarred the house foundation.
I do also remember some bulldozer/log truck/trackhoe activity several times through the years transversing the rear of the house about 75 to 100' away. My house would have some pretty good motion at times from these things occurring. Makes me wonder if any of this took a toll and resulted in this damage now?
I will take a couple of more pics today or tomorrow a little further away from the wall to give a better viewpoint.
Finally, I must ask, what would be the better lifting method/technique to use for this and should it raise it to the point of most of the cracks closing substantially.
I have 4 different foundation companies coming soon to inspect, Olshan, Cable Lock, WKC and Baton Rouge Foundation (last two local)
The Baton Rouge Foundation guy says he will not be responsible for ANY plumbing or interior wall/ceiling damages resulting from the corrective work that he does, is this the norm?
What are the odds of that type of damage occurring on corrective work?
Just want to know what questions to ask when they inspect and want big bucks to do this. BR foundation guy already saying at least 10 pilings/piers at $400 a piece and some other accessory charges! So already $4000 at least for a beginning guess!
Hope I didn't forget anything else? ha
Oh, could a civil engineer be of help to me? I have a good friend that is a recent college graduate, that I could enlist to assist me in some way. I am thinking I could let him review the foundation company quotes/technical drawings to determine the best approach to take.
Thank YOU very much!


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> Stuart, that is a popular style of jointing in some areas. Unfortunately it tends to crack and leak more often than properly tooled joints.
> 
> .


I was looking at the split brick under the lintel at the frame where they hadn't worked the bed joints out, and the brickwork is not running 1/2 bond in some places. 
I have bag rubbed work to be painted, or when recreating an Inglenook fireplace in an old house. I don't like it for normal facework.
Still, beauty is in the eye of ______


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

*Bad Brick Mortar?*

The guy from WCK foundation repair from Baton Rouge came by to inspect the foundation. He suggested putting in several piers of some type and then lifting the house wing, in his opinion about 3/4" and then lock/stablize.
He also saw another area of concern on the West side of my house at the kitchen/dining room exterior wall. I have another soldier row brick crack to a small degree there and the kitchen drywall ceiling has a structural stress crack about 6 ft. long extending from a load bearing wall. 
He suggested piers and lifting here as well.
Together for both areas, the grand total is $6300.
He put a 4 ft. level down in several places in my house including the kitchen/dining rooms. As he saw some unlevelness on the vinyl tile floor, he was quick to say it was due to slab cracks running thru those rooms not original house construction of the concrete floor.
I may be wrong but I think it is due to the original house construction and my house slab isn't totally level through out the house.
Please give me your thoughts, he didn't use a laser level or transit to check the house elevations.
It seems that my house is falling down around my ankles and I am hearing the $$$$ hit the floor bigtime.
Thanks guys,


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey Guys,
I have had three foundation repair salesmen/inspectors come by to give estimates on my foundation repair. I will try to summarize each one so you can analyze them and give me the pros and cons of each, concerning the repair methods to be used.
I can now see some of the differences, one wants to auger down around 8 ft., put in some rebar and pour wedge piers, to lift/level the house.
Another one wants to push simple concrete blocks, one at a time using the house concrete foundation as a fulcrum down to a point where the blocks can't be pushed any further and then lift/level.
The third one will use cable lock patented technology to press round interlocking and rotating concrete cylinders down to point of refusal, tension aligned with a steel cable, then lift/level.
The estimates were for about the same price roughly $3600 to 3900 , with the total number of piers varying to ring just the rear wing of my house where the foundation is most at risk.
A friend told me that he chose cable-lock because otherwise, the proposed concrete wedge or "foundation pushed down" piers would just give and fail in short order.
I can tell that some want big money for a bandaid type job with lifetime warranties that are worthless if they close down, with no one to pick up the homeowners warranty. I was told that I could then find/pay someone to readjust the level for approx. $1000 or 1200. But I do know that regardless if it is a family owned business or a national company, they can ALL be gone today or tomorrow for whatever reason.
Just wanted to ask what you think on evaluating the foundation repair companies.

Thanks for you continued assistance,


I laid down soaker hoses around the rear wing of my house and turned on the water slightly. I was told that adding water to the perimeter, due to a lack of rain right now could help swell the ground/raise the house slightly???
I want to get your opinions on this technique, will it do any good at this point? 
Thanks again



Hey guys,
I really need some professional help here, I have been having foundation repair companies inspect and give quotes on raising and stabilizing my house on two or three possible locations. I would like to supply the detailed info. to you to determine what would be the most effective method for permanent solution. They want to use a couple of different pier techniques and I don't know much about it.
I showed them my kitchen ceiling that extends from a load bearing wall that has a strongback brace in the attic that is cracking the drywall ceiling. The inspectors are suggesting that the double carport w/attached storage building is settling/dipping putting the stress on the load bearing wall and ceiling causing the slight cracking. Therefore they are recommending the attached storage room rear be raised/stabilized also.
They want $4600 for the bedroom wing and another $4000 for the attached storage room for a total of 14 pilings for a grand total of $8600. And I won't know if that will render my house stable or not for the long term, it may require more work and $$$$$$$$$$$ down the road.
I want to make sure that when I do the foundation work that a comprehensive job is done and not piecemeal it every year for 3-5 years.
Please give me some help on this.
Thanks


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey guys,
I really need some professional help here, I have been having foundation repair companies inspect and give quotes on raising and stabilizing my house on two or three possible locations. I would like to supply the detailed info. to you to determine what would be the most effective method for permanent solution. They want to use a couple of different pier techniques and I don't know much about it.
I showed them my kitchen ceiling that extends from a load bearing wall that has a strongback brace in the attic that is cracking the drywall ceiling. The inspectors are suggesting that the double carport w/attached storage building is settling/dipping putting the stress on the load bearing wall and ceiling causing the slight cracking. Therefore they are recommending the attached storage room rear be raised/stabilized also.
They want $4600 for the bedroom wing and another $4000 for the attached storage room for a total of 14 pilings for a grand total of $8600. And I won't know if that will render my house stable or not for the long term, it may require more work and $$$$$$$$$$$ down the road.
I want to make sure that when I do the foundation work that a comprehensive job is done and not piecemeal it every year for 3-5 years.
Please give me some help on this.
Thanks


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

When you first started this thread, the issue was cracked brick, which you thought was due to poor mortar mix. Now you are procuring bids to repair the foundation, which you initially thought was OK. Nothing in any of your posts indicates how any of the foundation repair companies have concluded that there is a settlement problem. One of them apparently laid down a four foot level in one room, hardly a comprehensive survey.

If you ask a cable lok company what is the best solution, of course they are going to tell you cable lok is the way to go. I recommend you hire a registered professional engineer with expertise in foundation analysis, and have them perform a comprehensive foundation and floor survey. This would be done with an accurate instrument such as a laser level or a fluid level, and will tell you how much settlement your foundation has undergone, and where. When the facts are in place, they can presumably generate a report recommending a repair technique. This should be an independent engineer not associated with a specific repair procedure, so their opinion would not be influenced by financial ties.

No one on this forum can perform a structural analysis of your issues over the internet, and certainly cannot recommend the best procedure to correct your problem, whatever it may be. You need a hands on investigation by a professional.


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Daniel, you are exactly right on your conclusions, sorry that mine have changed as this as evolved. I was taken by surprise and didn't realize that I had any slab cracks or that I needed any extensive foundation work as they have proposed. 
I do agree if someone is selling a service or product, it is the best. I have heard the foundation reps. all counter each other in a very nice manner, which method and/or companies work had to be reworked. The other smaller companies all said they have had to go back to correct not only their own work 1-2% of the time but Cable Locks work as well. ???? I don't understand that logic due to Cable Lock having a lifetime warranty as they are proposing too.
Anyway, in this situation they ALL want to sell and sell BIG but is it what I need for a permanent solution? I don't know ???
What type of engineer should I locate and what price range would I be looking at? I do understand that they could benefit me by recommending ONLY what I need to have done instead of a huge bill on overkill that may not solve my problems.
I appreciate your expertise and response. I will try to select an engineering firm or engineer that can help me with this issue.
Also, one company rep. slide a four foot level around the slab in different spots in each room, saying that I had possible slab cracks based on reading the level??? Cable lock uses some type of electronic spot sensor, they take a base reference measurement somewhere, on the front porch slab in this case and plugs it in, the sensor then reads at a + or - difference from this base reference reading, I don't know what to think about this gadget!
Maybe you have some experience and knowledge of this electronic sensor, it showed my rear bedroom wing at -1.3 in. and the attached carport stg. room -.5 to -.6 , so they were in a negative versus the base elevation reading
Thank you very much,


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Settlement of foundations in southern Louisiana is very common, due to the soil type. I am sure there are geotechnical engineers down there, or possibly structural engineers, who specialize in foundation problems. That is the type of person you need.

As for the electronic level, I have one of those, and the type I have works very well. If the instrument that was used was correctly calibrated, it sounds like you have a drop of 1.3 inches, which is not all that much based on my personal experience. I recommend you hire an engineer to evaluate your condition before you spend thousands of dollars on a repair that you may not need, and may not work. I don't know the going rate for an engineer in LA, but search around, there must be more than one that do that sort of work.


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## kourso (Jul 6, 2006)

Daniel,
I will look around and try to find a foundation/geotechnical engineer that is unbiased. I don't have any idea what it would cost but as you stated it may save me thousands in unnecessary repair work, that may or may not be the proper solution to this problem.
I will post again later after I contact a few engineer/engineer firms.
As you explained, I need a foundation analysis, I would think they may need to take some soil samples and take elevation shots at multiple points.
Thank you for the great advice,


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