# Is it necessary to get rid of paint on concrete before laying ceramic tiles?



## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

My basement concrete floor is painted with what I assume is some type of concrete paint. It is shiney at parts, and some parts have worn out. 

I eventually want to lay ceramic tiles and I don't want to use ditra, I simply want to lay them over the concrete. (The concrete has no cracks, no chance of moving as it is 70 years old.)

Do I really need to remove the paint in order for the adhesive to stick?

Thanks very much for any help.

Also, there is a certain part that I will have to use some type of self levelling compound. Would the compound work with the paint being there?


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## bbgunbob (Dec 10, 2008)

*Yummy,I think sanding will do*

Try a spot with the glue/mastic your going to use to set the tile .See if it eats the paint.If not get a 4" belt sander with 60 or down to 30 grit sanding belt.Rough it up and you should be good to go.
As for leveling I don't know a thing about that.

BBGun Bob
SE Mich.:thumbsup:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Can I sand and rough it up by hand? Would that work?

I just want to make certain that the adhesive will stick to it.
So that the tiles will not end up moving and cracking.


Thanks


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## bbgunbob (Dec 10, 2008)

Yep you can that way a machine just saves time and labor.

Bob


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Try a spot with the glue/mastic your going to use to set the tile .See if it eats the paint.


*NONSENSE!!!*

You don't use mastic with floor tile.
Thinset wont eat anything but your hands.

Where on earth is this notion coming from?

The Tile Council of North America publishes a "Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation"

*YOU* can order one here: http://www/tileusa.com


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Yummy,

Painted concrete surfaces are a well known bondbreaker for all tile thinsets and self levelling compounds and must be removed prior to installing tile.


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Try a floor machine from a local rental place. You will want a very aggressive pad to remove paint. They are powerful and easy to operate once you get the hang of using one they work really well. 
Jamie


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Bud Cline said:


> Yummy,
> 
> Painted concrete surfaces are a well known bondbreaker for all tile thinsets and self levelling compounds and must be removed prior to installing tile.


Hi Bud

Would sanding it to the point where I remove all the shine be enough?
Or, (please don't say it,,,,,,,,,) have to remove it completely to the bare cement? Oh no.........................


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi Bob, neighbor. Welcome to this forum, BUT that is what happens when you make recommendations that do not pass the "do-it-right" test.

Only hacks use mastic on floors. You could use it on back splashes in dry areas and that's about it. We do not recommend tiling over painted floors, it'll come loose one day. 

Jaz


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

yummy mummy said:


> Do I really need to remove the paint in order for the adhesive to stick?
> 
> Also, there is a certain part that I will have to use some type of self levelling compound. Would the compound work with the paint being there?


Paint's gotta go :icon_evil: but Bud and Jaz have already confirmed that.

Note, before you use an SLC, you will most likely need to remove the paint AND use a special primer. I have only used Mapei Novoplan 2 and you have to use the primer over a properly prepared cement surface.


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> Try a floor machine from a local rental place. You will want a very aggressive pad to remove paint. They are powerful and easy to operate once you get the hang of using one they work really well.
> Jamie


I have also used a floor machice with a pad to remove paint from concrete and it works well. One time however I tried it on a concrete patio and was unsuccessful. I then used a pressure washer - it removed the stuborn paint super easy. Not knowing if your basement will allow for this - has a drain, etc. - but may be a consideration.

Vince


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Ok, I get it..........I have to remove the paint. 

I don't want to do it with a machine because it will probably send me flying into the air.......

What can I use to remove it, by hand. I don't want to use any chemical products. 

I think the paint is oil based. How would I know?


Thanks


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

it doesn't take long to learn the scarifier OR a conc grinder's technique.

we typically use hand grinders fitted w/dust shrouds hook'd up to wet/dry vacs running turbo-style diamond cup wheels either 12 or 24 segs,,, your apron store might rent these,,, usually any paint hasn't penetrated that far into the conc to interfere w/a new surface however occasionally you may need to install a polymer-modified overlay if nec.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

yummy mummy said:


> Ok, I get it..........I have to remove the paint.
> 
> I don't want to do it with a machine because it will probably send me flying into the air.......
> 
> ...


Oh you are a glutton for punishment....by hand? That's too much work.

If you could rent a setup like this, it would be very manageable:









I own this combo and it will beat the heck out of doing it by hand (and no, that's not me in the pic). Notice the vacuum? It automatically turns on when the grinder is switched on. Catches about 90-95% of any dust that it created by the grinding. 
Finding something like this will save you hours over doing it by hand.
Say it with me...."I _can _do this. I _can _do this...."

As for the paint, maybe someone can verify this but rumor has it, rubbing alcohol will remove latex paint but not oil.


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

angus, is that the bosch 4" conc planer ? ? ? we use std 7"/9" 15a grinders,,, MUCH faster & MUCH less expensive ! ! ! beaneedoo works but it leaves its own stains/mess.


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

There is a saying. If the paint won't stick then anything you put over the paint won't stick.

I never trust paint (just like I never trust wallpaper). I have seen to many times when it was put on dry (not enough moisture to allow it to stick to the surface) and it peals in just about any situation. They put it on dry thinking that it keeps from dripping and they are too lazy to want to do any cleanup or put down drop clothes. Many times people don't use the right paint for the right situation.

For this reason I am a big fan of removing paint and wall paper if needed.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

yesitsconcrete said:


> angus, is that the bosch 4" conc planer ? ? ? we use std 7"/9" 15a grinders,,, MUCH faster & MUCH less expensive ! ! ! beaneedoo works but it leaves its own stains/mess.


It's the Bosch 5" concrete grinder. 
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1773AK-Concrete-Surfacing-Grinder/dp/B0000719W8
I have to remove thinset from concrete in small bathrooms (powder rooms) at times and this works perfect. If I have a need for anything larger, my neighbor is an excavator and will let me borrow whatever scarifier I need!


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

thought it was,,, see 'em on ebay but grinders're so much faster, easier, & cheaper or it is w/our method.

we also have scarifiers ( 5 & 11hp ) but they're for pools & other ext work.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Angus:

The pic makes it look easy......

I just don't want paint particles and concrete particles all over the air.
But since there is an vac attachment then this does seem like a possibility.

What is that thing called? Do they rent it out at the big box stores?
And the vaccuum, does that come with the grinder. 

Do I have to get right to the bare concrete? 
I think underneath there is another coat of paint which probably is the original one from 70 years ago.  and that probably has really bad stuff in it. When I start to grind it, won't it be harmful to breath in?

Thanks

OK, I'm repeating, yes I can, yes I can,..........no I can't :jester:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Yummy,

Isn't this the same thread you have running over at The Floor Pro where earnest experienced people have been trying to convince you of the same information you are getting here?

I can't tell you how used it makes me feel when you people do this crap. I thought I was being helpful but it seems this is just a game to you.

What's the matter with you?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Bud 

Don't get bent out of shape, sweety.

I did not realize that there was a problem in posting on another forum with the same question to see what the pros there think.

Drop the attitude Bud......
......and if you want to express your displeasure, there are many ways of doing that. :yes:


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

yummy mummy said:


> Angus:
> 
> The pic makes it look easy......
> 
> ...


It's a concrete grinder. Not sure if big box stores rent it. When I need a tool, I unfortunately have to just buy it .

I can't imagine it would be hard to find though. It's the perfect tool combo for your situation. SOMEONE has to rent it. Try just a regular ole rental store. There's actually one right across the street from my local home deplore. Has a lot more to offer than the apron place.

...and yes, you have to go to bare concrete.

and yes, you CAN do it.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks Angus. I'm pretty certain I can find one in my area.
We have many rental places.

................and you know what, YES, I can do it.........and I am going to do it.

Hopefully after the holidays.


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

be surprised if the avg rental place has angus' bosch OR a dust-shroud fitt'd grinder,,, then again, most use grinders,,, our orange apron rental dept's got 1 even tho most dit-ers/h-o's don't know what it is,,, if you can't hook this up to a wet/dry vac, you'll never lay the floor.


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## atm (Mar 26, 2009)

I have a similar situation where the basement has been painted with Primer and Behr Flooring Paint. The paint has been on for for about 8 years and has not peeled. 

I was at a Tile store yesterday and the person said that I can put concrete directly on the painted basement wall and it would be fine? Is there some special type of cement that will support this?

Also, how about paint remover? Can I use this to remove the paint before laying out the tile?

Thanks for your help!!!


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

To remove the paint from the floor, I used an enviro friendly product as I did not want the toxic smell. The product that I used is called Safe strip.

I found it to be great. I don't know how much area you need to do, but it is a lot of work. 

Good luck


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Just for the the record........

Paints and sealers are known industry-wide to be bond breakers when it comes to tile. It IS NOT RECOMMENDED that tile be installed over any painted or sealed concrete surface.

To remove paint or sealers from concrete surfaces chemicals should not be used, chemical strippers are also known bond breakers. The only industry-acceptable method of removal is through mechanical abrasion. Sandblasting, shot blasting, scarifying, grinding.

Carry on.


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

i don't know of any pro who'd use less than mechanical means to prep a floor,,, yes, there are solutions/solvents/poultices/potions which'll soften paint/cutback/emulsion/mastic & can do so while being environmentally safe, planet-friendly, go suck an egg :laughing:

the main drawback to the aforementioned wish list is getting the NEW grout/thinset to ADHERE to the greasy surfaces left behind by tree-hugging-stuff-in-a-can,,, i can't believe ANYONE'd be stupid enough to say that ANYONE ( bud & me includ'd ) can put concrete directly on the painted basement wall and it would be fine,,, that's just idiotic & should insult anyone's intelligence :furious:

now having had my daily small rant, ignorance is another issue &, thankfully, there's a cure for that - EDUCATION ! ! ! :thumbup: HIE THYSELF TO ANOTHER STORE toot sweet ! ! !


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## toolbelt Tina (May 18, 2009)

*what about an ...*

what about an acid etch after the stripper?

I know not as effective as a grinder but in principal would it not be roughly the same thing?

The stripper removes the paint and the acid etch cleans and scuffs the surface.

Could this save her from all the mess and dust?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

The product that I used is water soluble and I of course washed it with a mild soap and rinsed 3 times. 

I really do think that there is no stripper residue there.

At least, I am hoping there isn't.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> What about an acid etch after the stripper? I know not as effective as a grinder but in principal would it not be roughly the same thing? The stripper removes the paint and the acid etch cleans and scuffs the surface. Could this save her from all the mess and dust?


*Just for the the record........*

_*Paints and sealers are known industry-wide to be bond breakers when it comes to tile. It IS NOT RECOMMENDED that tile be installed over any painted or sealed concrete surface.*_

_*To remove paint or sealers from concrete surfaces chemicals should not be used, chemical strippers are also known bond breakers. The only industry-acceptable method of removal is through mechanical abrasion. Sandblasting, shot blasting, scarifying, grinding.*_





> The product that I used is water soluble and I of course washed it with a mild soap and rinsed 3 times. I really do think that there is no stripper residue there.


*Just for the the record........*

_*Paints and sealers are known industry-wide to be bond breakers when it comes to tile. It IS NOT RECOMMENDED that tile be installed over any painted or sealed concrete surface.*_

_*To remove paint or sealers from concrete surfaces chemicals should not be used, chemical strippers are also known bond breakers. The only industry-acceptable method of removal is through mechanical abrasion. Sandblasting, shot blasting, scarifying, grinding.:whistling2:*_


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## toolbelt Tina (May 18, 2009)

*ok then...*



Bud Cline said:


> *Just for the the record........*
> 
> _*Paints and sealers are known industry-wide to be bond breakers*_



Bud so what you are saying is....

I hope the grinder does not create the amount of dust like a concrete saw.

I'm sure she'll tackle the challenge well. Perhaps even start a blog


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> I hope the grinder does not create the amount of dust like a concrete saw.


Well of course it does!


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## yesitsconcrete (May 11, 2008)

never use soap,,, we use dawn ' when necessary,,, i have no financial interest in recommending that product &, if sent $$$, will donate to this thread :laughing:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Yes, I do get you Bud about the paint removers......
I will just pray that they don't move....:laughing:...and my clients don't care.......:laughing:

If I was doing this as a profession and for paying clients......I would definitely hire someone and have it removed mechanically.:yes:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

toolbelt Tina said:


> Bud so what you are saying is....
> 
> I hope the grinder does not create the amount of dust like a concrete saw.
> 
> I'm sure she'll tackle the challenge well. Perhaps even start a blog


I have already starting laying the tiles........and looking for movement and cracking.........lol

I am hoping that they won't all crack. If a few crack, I love rugs......:laughing:


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## DiyCR fan (Mar 16, 2013)

tyvm to angus242 for the rubbing alcohol tip. It works... softened the paint & just takes light chiseling afterwards. 

My question is the same as the original poster, BUT my floor is not painted. It is only “pain splatters” here & there on the concrete i am removing. Please let me know your opinions about how serious or not serious it is to remove the scattered paint splatters, because i've heard just making cuts in the paint is good enough to get the thinset to make contact with the concrete. And what about the areas where the paint is faded & not dense? I have included a picture of me starting a dry layout. The paint splatters are light orange. Thank you very much.
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4861/img0140fb.jpg


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

DiyCR fan said:


> tyvm to angus242 for the rubbing alcohol tip. It works... softened the paint & just takes light chiseling afterwards.
> 
> My question is the same as the original poster, BUT my floor is not painted. It is only “pain splatters” here & there on the concrete i am removing. Please let me know your opinions about how serious or not serious it is to remove the scattered paint splatters, because i've heard just making cuts in the paint is good enough to get the thinset to make contact with the concrete. And what about the areas where the paint is faded & not dense? I have included a picture of me starting a dry layout. The paint splatters are light orange. Thank you very much.
> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4861/img0140fb.jpg


 
You do realize that thread is from July 2009.


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## DiyCR fan (Mar 16, 2013)

@Canarywood1, yes


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## cleveman (Dec 17, 2011)

That amount of paint is nothing to worry about. You might want to remove the door frame and tile under it and re-hang. Or at least back-cut the jambs and tile under them the best you can.


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## DiyCR fan (Mar 16, 2013)

cleveman said:


> That amount of paint is nothing to worry about. You might want to remove the door frame and tile under it and re-hang. Or at least back-cut the jambs and tile under them the best you can.


Thanx a lot cleveman :thumbsup:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

just undercut the frame. don't remove it, no need. place a piece of cardboard on the floor by the frame, then a tile on that. then undercut the frame. that will get ya real close.


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