# Upgrading and replumbing with Pex



## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

Looking for some insight, my current system is under sized. Meaning the whole house from the meter is connected with 1/2 copper (in from the street 3/4). I am planning to remove the 1/2 copper and replace with 3/4 pex and a manifold system. I am attaching a picture of my layout/plan and asking for you guys to take a look to see if i am missing something or if there is a flaw in the layout. Most of the fixture are located 10 feet or less from the H/W and the manifold. the longest run is about 30 feet away from the H/W and manifold (kitchen and outside2 faucet)

Thank you in advance, i would appreciate any feedback - i plan to start this project in the next 2 weeks


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

The water feed to the boiler will need a reduced pressure back flow on it. The outside faucets should have valves. You need a stop on the cold to your hot water tank. Also with the PR valve you will need an expansion tank sized for your hot water tank.

It should work what you have if you do the extra.


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## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks gostmaker. I just double checked your suggestions. Yes backflow is on the boiler feed, and expansion tank are on both water heater and boiler. Outside valves have shutoffs. (Should have added to my layout)...one thing that's there, that I do not have plans to replace is the hammer silencer. Right now it's on the hot water trunk. Right after the hot water heater. It look to be 60 yrs old... I don't think it's still functioning and I don't think it's in the right spot. I figure after the job I can reinstall a silencer if I notice hammering

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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I have installed several installations similar to your plan. Couple things I have learned that you may want to consider.. 
1.) put a by pass around the cold water manifold, it will help considerably with branch flow fluctuations when you have simultaneous users. (shower/toilet)
2. keep the the hot water manifold as close to the tank as possible. This will help get HW to the point of use quicker. The last few I have done I put the HW manifold directly above the tank.


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## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

Yodaman,

Thanks for the tip - Nice work..it looks awesome!.

I saw a tube video "how too make your own manifold". the guy suggested the same thing. I wasn't going to do it, but after your suggestion i built in the bypass today. (take a look at the attached)

Few things i didn't realize before today 1. Pex isn't as pliable as i thought. 2. the crimping tool takes some getting use to. (lot of exercise and force)

your second suggestion is one ive been wrestling with for the past few days. Location of the manifolds. (hot and cold). I don't have a lot of space to work with, I can go overhead with the hot but its going to be tight - other lines in the way (gas and boiler). I can go vertical and adjacent to the water heater but that mean i will have to run lines behind the water heater and the boiler - which i don't thing would pass code due to pex and min distance to heat sources.

I'm sure i can figure it out just need a few more days to think about it - maybe to some dry-runs and dry-fits before i decide.

thank again for the tips.


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## NutzNate (Jan 20, 2016)

Yodaman said:


> I have installed several installations similar to your plan. Couple things I have learned that you may want to consider..
> 1.) put a by pass around the cold water manifold, it will help considerably with branch flow fluctuations when you have simultaneous users. (shower/toilet)
> 2. keep the the hot water manifold as close to the tank as possible. This will help get HW to the point of use quicker. The last few I have done I put the HW manifold directly above the tank.
> 
> ...



Nice setup, I've been looking for clean ideas on how best to setup and tie in a custom manifold. What do you think about the spacing between fittings in he manifold itself? I started to wonder about flow and the reduced ID of the brass pex fittings. 
Here's what I had come up with, I'm contemplating now the bypass mentioned earlier, I think that's a great idea- another concern was the overall capacity of the manifold itself, with all the fittings. 
I plan on setting up similar to yours, along with the dump valve. 











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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Looks good. Regarding spacing I would normally keep the branch lines as close as possible mainly for space constraints. But on the hot line keeping the 3/4 main line as short as possible has benefits of getting the hot water to the fixture asap. 
The pex fittings do reduce flow but will not be a issue with most house hold fixtures. If you need to supply a large whirlpool tub you should bump up to 3/4 line. 
Capacity issues only occur when you have several simultaneous users. But the manifold and home run plumbing, along with a by pass help to reduce volume fluctuations. IMO its a much better setup then the conventional stem and branch system.


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## NutzNate (Jan 20, 2016)

Thanks, I'll post some pics once it's all done. I like this setup mainly organized look and single location. I have a bungalow with the longest run to the kitchen being under 20' so it's almost more a convenience thing. 

What do you think about gravity fed recirculating loops? 


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

NutzNate said:


> What do you think about gravity fed recirculating loops?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I really don't see much need in a small house. With your longest run less than 20' and using a 1/2" pex line you should have hot water in less than 5 seconds. Assuming you keep the HW manifold close to the tank.
It will increase your hot water heating cost because you will continually be recirculating cooler water back into your tank causing it to run more.
I see it as a luxury thing. Which is fine if want to spend the extra $ and really want hot water instantly.
And lastly manifold plumbing is not conducive to recirc lines. Generally speaking you would set up a hot water loop reaching close to the furthest fixture and returning to the HW tank. And then Tee off the loop with short branch lines to feed the various fixtures.


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## NutzNate (Jan 20, 2016)

True, one 1/2" line should be plenty for the bathrooms hey? I figure, if you're showering hopefully no ones using the toilet or washing your hands, a complete dedicated setup would be nice, valves are pricey tho. At least this setup is always easy to expand in the future!


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## NutzNate (Jan 20, 2016)

Sorry I figure I'll run a line for the sink and toilet and a dedicated for the shower- long night!


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## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

*all done - keepthe chat going*

Hey guys sorry for the delay (but life happens)- I'm glad to see lots of comments and ideas. I have finally finish my setup with a few gotchas - 1. total project was a little more expensive than what i estimated; 2. took longer - mostly planning on my part. 3. Increasing diameter to the furthest run (25') to 3/4 increased the wait time for hot water - (yodaman - didn't see you post til now). -not sure if i have the heart to redo that run with 1/2. (its working and the wife doesn't mind the wait). I see only slight improvement in loss of pressure when toilet is flushed or washer machine is running while showering. One huge benefit is i got to remove copper pipe that would be in the way - when it comes time to finish my basement (no drop ceiling ;-). In the end it was a lot of work but i am very happy. I'll be tweaking the system from time to time but the major work is done...i am attaching pix of finished project - pro's, feel free to comment if i broke some codes somewhere. p.s got $55 for 40lbs of copper


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Looks good. The next time you are in the shower and someone flushes a toilet you will be happy you put in the by pass. Let us know how it works


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## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

No more burn...but still noticeable

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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Those flex tubes to the water heater will blow on you eventually. You should use a solid metal flex copper or stainless.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Holdrite...or-18-Length?gclid=CIWIvvTa18oCFQ6OaQod5jkHjQ

The ones you used have a plastic liner.


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## allinonetrade (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up, ghost..I have some cleanup to do in that area...a friend of mine said it would pass insp because the cold side isn't braced...when you say "eventually" do you mean ticking time bomb or 5 to 10 years?

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## coutch (Jun 16, 2009)

Yodaman said:


> I have installed several installations similar to your plan. Couple things I have learned that you may want to consider..
> 1.) put a by pass around the cold water manifold, it will help considerably with branch flow fluctuations when you have simultaneous users. (shower/toilet)
> 2. keep the the hot water manifold as close to the tank as possible. This will help get HW to the point of use quicker. The last few I have done I put the HW manifold directly above the tank.
> ]


 @Yodaman,

1) Any reason to not have a bypass on the hot side as well ? 

2) I have a 2-family house, should I have one or two cold manifolds ? (2 hots since there are two hot water heaters) My thoughts are to have two in case I ever want to have a 2nd meter installed, would make it easier to retrofit.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

coutch said:


> @*Yodaman* ,
> 
> 1) Any reason to not have a bypass on the hot side as well ?
> 
> 2) I have a 2-family house, should I have one or two cold manifolds ? (2 hots since there are two hot water heaters) My thoughts are to have two in case I ever want to have a 2nd meter installed, would make it easier to retrofit.



1.) HW byass, it won't hurt anything, but probably not necessary. The main issue with the cold water is when one person is showering and someone else flushes a toilet. The cold water bypass helps prevent volume loss for the shower.
2.) Separate units should have their own meter unless you include water with the rent. I would set up a separate manifolds for each unit.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

Yodaman, unrelated, but the second pic you posted. Do you know what the pvc drain lines are attached to? Are those all toilets? And is it ok to use wye's like that? Just curious because I'm thinking about moving some of my drain lines around, some are toilets and the final product would look like that. Thanks.










It shouldn't use a sanitary tee or similar? I don't think sani tee's are supposed to be on their side, but it just looks like it would flow better.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

mikegp said:


> Yodaman, unrelated, but the second pic you posted. Do you know what the pvc drain lines are attached to? Are those all toilets? And is it ok to use wye's like that? Just curious because I'm thinking about moving some of my drain lines around, some are toilets and the final product would look like that. Thanks.


Two toilet drops with a vent stack in the middle. There is another 3" vent just to the left out of the pic. As far as code compliance, all I can say is that the inspector didn't say anything and signed off.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

If you don't mind, I'd like to use your pic to make a thread asking others about it. Thanks.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Sure, no problem


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> I have installed several installations similar to your plan. Couple things I have learned that you may want to consider..
> 1.) put a by pass around the cold water manifold, it will help considerably with branch flow fluctuations when you have simultaneous users. (shower/toilet)
> 2. keep the the hot water manifold as close to the tank as possible. This will help get HW to the point of use quicker. The last few I have done I put the HW manifold directly above the tank.
> 
> ...


Yodaman-Your version is my inspiration, may i ask a few questions:
1. What is that on the tail of your Hot? and what is its purpose?
2. Regarding cold; the outer looks like its 3/4 with the trunk lines all 1/2" is this correct? or is are the cold trunks a mix of 1/2 and 3/4?
3. Regarding Hot; is that all the same size pex? If so what size is it?

I was planning a 3/4 trunk system for Kitchen and baths and direct lines for laundry and outside spigots the trunk would have half inch pex sections off the trunk going to existing 1/2 copper at fixtures. 
Wondering if its ok to run Hot as all 1/2?...or should i use 3/4 trunks as well for Hot?

Also i have well water and will run 2 filters between the pressure tank and the manifold, filter 1 is a spin down and filter 2 is a whole house filter the spin down has 1" inputs which is the same as my input line from the pressure tank, but the whole house filter is 3/4 in and out.
My question here is since the whole house filter goes down to 3/4 that i can keep all pipes after that filter at 3/4...or would there be any benefit reason to up step it back up to 1" ? (as you know fitting prices drop a lot for smaller diameters


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

dimbulb said:


> Yodaman-Your version is my inspiration, may i ask a few questions:
> 1. What is that on the tail of your Hot? and what is its purpose?
> 
> It's just a boiler drain valve in case I ever wanted to drain a HW branch line without draining the whole hot water system.
> ...


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Very nice, Thanks for responding so quickly! I will be able to put the hot manifold right next to the water heater as you do. 
OK, not so much the cost of the pex but the cost of the valves/hardware...So just for Hot... so would 1/2 from the manifold to fixture and then one tee off to feed a 2nd fixture(in the "group area") be ok? or should line from manifold be 3/4 before splitting to 2 1/2 fixture feeds?...or is it worth it to run seperate 1/2 hots to each fixture? instead of grouping 2 fixtures to one feeder line?
(Again Hot side only...)
These are the groups areas all on one floor(manifold and water heater in basement):
bath 1 of 2 one sink and one tub 10-15 feet from manifold
bath 2 of 2 one sink and one tub 20 - 25 feet from manifold
Laundry has washing machine and sink - 10 feet from manifold
Kitchen has sink and dishwasher - 15 - 20 feet from manifold


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## taylorjm (Apr 11, 2013)

Ghostmaker said:


> Those flex tubes to the water heater will blow on you eventually. You should use a solid metal flex copper or stainless.
> 
> http://www.supplyhouse.com/Holdrite...or-18-Length?gclid=CIWIvvTa18oCFQ6OaQod5jkHjQ
> 
> The ones you used have a plastic liner.


I agree with you on the flex lines. I tried telling people that on another post regarding water heater supply lines being braided flex and they were ripping me up and down saying there's nothing wrong with the braided flex lines. Even though I quoted several lawsuits regarding them bursting.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/water-heater-supply-line-connector-type-469033/


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Are any of the faucets for large tubs?

Generally speaking, if you want to feed more than one fixture, it should be fed from a 3/4 trunk line and then branch off to 1/2.

DW is a exception, ok to feed from sink faucet line.



As a alternative, to save $ you might consider a ready built pex manifold. Or consider forgoing the shutoffs at the manifold. They could be added in at a later date. Just put in a T and 1/2" branch line to each fixture. You still would have a main shut off in front of the manifold plus the supply stops at the fixtures.


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## taylorjm (Apr 11, 2013)

I also noticed you are using the plastic ice maker line. I've only been using copper lines since I had one break on me. I also had a guy come repair a part in my refrigerator under warranty and he said that he gets tons of calls where the plastic lines got brittle and broke and he had to write up a reason for the leak for the homeowner to claim it on insurance. Usually it's the wood floors that end up getting replaced.


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> Are any of the faucets for large tubs?
> 
> Generally speaking, if you want to feed more than one fixture, it should be fed from a 3/4 trunk line and then branch off to 1/2.
> 
> ...


No large tubs, 98% of usage is shower, is it feed rates? am i wrong in thinking if the two fixtures in each group would hardly be used at the same time then 1/2 trunk is ok?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

On the question of wyes vs santees my understanding is that the wyes are correct thing to have in there.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

dimbulb said:


> No large tubs, 98% of usage is shower, is it feed rates? am i wrong in thinking if the two fixtures in each group would hardly be used at the same time then 1/2 trunk is ok?



Sink faucets and toilets are no problem on a 1/2" line together. I really would try to put your shower valves on a separate lines direct to the manifold. Not having the shower temp affected when something else in the house gets turned on is one of the main reasons for installing a manifold.

You can also branch down to 3/8 on sinks and toilets. I never do, I run everything 1/2 or 3/4


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> shower valves on a separate lines


Ok, so separate direct lines for each hot and cold shower valve, 1/2" ok on both those separate lines then?

I guess i am thinking that since pure hot is rarely needed that the line could be smaller, but is that wrong thinking?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

dimbulb said:


> Ok, so separate direct lines for each hot and cold shower valve, 1/2" ok on both those separate lines then? yes
> 
> I guess i am thinking that since pure hot is rarely needed that the line could be smaller, but is that wrong thinking?
> 
> The cost savings for the few lines and feet of tubing you would use, downsizing isn't worth the trouble. Another size of tubing to buy, another size of fittings, another tool pending the crimp style. Stick with 1/2 and 3/4


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> dimbulb said:
> 
> 
> > Stick with 1/2 and 3/4
> ...


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Also Any opinion on Viega Brand vs. Everflow Brand Poly alloy fittings?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I agree, it needs some tweaking. I will send you a PM in the morning.


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

I updated based on our discussion about (1) having dedicated 1/2 hot and cold lines on the shower/tub lines, (2) sharing 1/2 cold lines in bathrooms only between stools and sinks and (3) sharing 1/2 hot lines in the kitchen between the sink and dishwasher. So... new picture attached is what i have so far, I kept 3/4 only for the single bathroom on the second story because the copper that runs up there from the crawl space that i can access is 3/4, also putting a single spare port both hot and cold manifolds and might as well make that 3/4 as well...easier to step down than up...right? 

So while this will work(if i understood you right!?); could/should anything be upsized for better performance? i have seen a few opinions both ways for going up to 3/4 in certain areas...like far from panel shower connections.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I like this much better, good job. I really don't like long runs of hot in 3/4 because it takes forever to get hot to the tap, but I understand now why you want to take 3/4 to the 2nd flr bath. I am guessing it takes a long time now to get the hot up there.
None of your runs are long to the point I would be concerned about up sizing. You said 20 feet max? If you insisted on putting the shower off a trunk line then I would say yes. But since you are running them direct to the manifold, your good.

Routing suggestion: one reason people get colder shower water when someone flushes or draws cold water is that it takes away from the HW tank supply a little.
Since you get a slight drop in the flow going in, you get a drop in the flow coming out, and the result is your shower water temp drops a little. That said, eliminate any restrictions on the cold that feeds the HW tank. Do this by moving the 3/4 T up to top. This will allow the water heading to the HW tank to run straight thru the T without a 90, and puts the 90 onto the cold side where it is less consequential. Also just bend that 3/4 around the top, no need for elbows.

PVC under pressure. Not a fan. I would be running 1" Pex. If you use cinch rings for crimps, one tool fits all sizes.

What is going on with the laundry? Looks like stub outs for drop ears and valves and then also extending up. Do you have 2 washers?


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

OK, regarding routing:
I made another drawing, A = what i had, B = your suggestion(did i get it right?) C = another question-would this work better or worse than your suggestion? (_easier run)_

Regarding PVC under pressure:
Is your concern Joint seam leaking? I struggled with this too, but a little bit of PVC around the water tank seems to be common practice, my tool can do 1" will look at getting more 1" Pex in the filter loop area

What is going on with the laundry? Looks like stub outs for drop ears and valves and then also extending up. Do you have 2 washers?
Stubs are for future laundry sink


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Use diagram "C" for the least restrictive route to the HW tank. Bend the 3/4 down to the tank, don't use a elbow.

On the 1", pex is more forgiving. And easier to work with. If you want clean straight lines use straight pcs of Pex in lieu of coil stock. I have seen PVC threaded fittings split apart, from over tightening. I would keep the PVC to un-pressurized lines, like DWV


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## jflag (Oct 6, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> I have seen PVC threaded fittings split apart, from over tightening.


 :thumbup: I will take your advice on this and spend the extra for brass and or the poly allow 1" pex fittings for tank/filter areas, I might even sweat up some copper pieces from my bone pile...note to self ID OF 3/4 Cu = .745" ID OF 1" Pex = .875".

I think i owe you a beer or 6 for all you help on this :drink:It seems the (USA)transition to pex is still a little bit like the wild west a this point in time and your wisdom has helped me greatly! will post photos when finished.

By the way... Any opinion on Viega Brand vs. Everflow Brand Poly alloy fittings? Viega is a little more expensive but no where near brass


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

No problem, happy to help, hope everything works out well for you. I think you will be pleasantly surprised regarding performance.

Regarding, mfg and type fittings, I use all brass from my local plumbing supply houses. I buy very few from big box stores. Some prefer the plastic and feel they are better, with less chance of a corrosion failure. I am just not there yet as I have never seen or heard of failures in my local area. I am thinking that different locations with different water, specifically acidic water, meaning low ph, may play a roll in these types of failures.


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