# 12 gauge wire to 14 gauge on an outlet question



## diyer4162 (Mar 20, 2007)

I am redoing my basment and the guy who lived there before me ran 12 gauge flexible conduit throughout the basement...I am planning on replacing/re-routing some runs of the outlets/lights with 14 gauge romex (left over from a previous project and yes grounded to the metal boxes) and I am replacing the 20 amp breaker with a 15 amp...does this sound ok? 

For instance, on one run from the breaker is the 12 gauge through a couple outlets, then between two our three outlets I will use 14 gauge where I am putting new outlets...but as long as I have a 15 amp breaker I am ok, correct.

Any insgiht will be great, thanks!


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## Sammy (Mar 11, 2007)

If your down sizing the breaker to 15 amps it should be fine. 

Some people run 20 amps as a standard now even in residential due to the increased load from all of the electronics we seem to have grown used to.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

It is ok to do that, but I would just buy what I needed in 12 and use the 14 for the lights.
JMHO


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## diyer4162 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have used as much of the 12 a I could, but trying to piece lengths together gets tricky....

It was my understanding that you can't use a 20 amp breaker with a combinations of 14 gauge and 12 gauge as the 14 will "fry" before the breaker would trip??


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

diyer4162 said:


> I have used as much of the 12 a I could, but trying to piece lengths together gets tricky....
> 
> It was my understanding that you can't use a 20 amp breaker with a combinations of 14 gauge and 12 gauge as the 14 will "fry" before the breaker would trip??


Not true, but is required by code.


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## diyer4162 (Mar 20, 2007)

jbfan said:


> Not true, but is required by code.


well, since I have all applicable permits and my basement will be inspected, I will just swap out the breakers then, thanks guys!!


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Define "fry". :laughing: :whistling2:


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## diyer4162 (Mar 20, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> Define "fry". :laughing: :whistling2:


potential fire hazard??


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

If you hang 14 gauge wire off of a branch circuit even for lights only, the circuit has to be a 15 amp. max. circuit.

If you have a circuit with 12 gauge wire throughout and want to add more to it, you'd be better off adding 12 gauge wire so you can keep it at 20 amps. and also so the next homeowner would not be confused seeing the 12 gauge wire at the panel and snap in a 20 amp. breaker for the circuit anyway.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Sammy said:


> Some people run 20 amps as a standard now even in residential due to the increased load from all of the electronics we seem to have grown used to.


Not me. I'd rather run more circuits.
Electronics don't have nearly the draw some folks think they do.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

12ga + multigang switches = mad electrician!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

HouseHelper said:


> 12ga + multigang switches = mad electrician!


14 not allowed in my area= 12ga + muilti switches = normal day
Even in the few areas it is allowed, I almost always run 12. I buy 14 by the 50' box


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jbfan said:


> 14 not allowed in my area= 12ga + muilti switches = normal day
> Even in the few areas it is allowed, I almost always run 12. I buy 14 by the 50' box



That is insane and I feel for you bro.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

jbfan said:


> 14 not allowed in my area


What's up jb. 
I'd seriously like to know the justification behind such a stupid code. If it ever comes up please let us know.

I could _almost_ understand a restriction on #14 to circuits with NO receptacles at all. Lighting only. But no #14 at all??? Flat out stupid!


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

I used to run into this several years ago, before the colored sheathing was available. Unofficial reason was the inspectors couldn't tell the difference between 14 and 12 since it was all white, so they mandated 12ga only could be used.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

HouseHelper said:


> I used to run into this several years ago, before the colored sheathing was available. Unofficial reason was the inspectors couldn't tell the difference between 14 and 12 since it was all white, so they mandated 12ga only could be used.


 
i hate to be rude in here but if they cant tell the diffrence then they have no bussiness to look at it unless they have extra min to read the raised letter on the romax cables.

a good inspector should able tell by size alone with new romax's with older one all it take a extra second or two look around a little can able to see it.

Merci, Marc


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Here is the addmendment.
Not sure why it copied like it did, but i fixed some of them

It is not allowed to extend a #14 circuit. If I can extend it, it must be #12.
That makes it like a hack job then.

NOW THEREfORE. 6E IT ORDAINED BY THE BOA~D Of COMMISSIONERS
OF COWETA COUNTY. AND
IT IS HEREBY ORDAINED BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE SAME THAT THE
COUNTY CODE OF ORDINANCES. CHAPTER 6 SECTION 6-4 BE AMENDED
AS FOllOWS: °

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 220-3(b).
There shall be no more than 10 (ten) lights
or receptacles on anyone circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 210-52(b).
In kitchen Area - receptacles over counter
top or working space - not more than 2 (two)
outlets per circuit.

Refrigerator. dishwasher. or any motorized
applianceshall be on a designated circuit.

Addendum to the National Electric Code. Article 310-14.
No aluminum conductors shall be used other
than Service Entrance Cable. Exception: On
high amperage heat pump or electric furnace
with separate disconnects. aluminum conductor-type
SEU or SER. may be installed from the Service
Panel to a disconnect marked CO/ALR on line side.
load side wiring from disconnect to furnace and/or
heat pump shall be in copper only.

Addendum to the National Electric Code, Article 310-15.
#14 gauge wire shall not be allowed in Coweta County.

ATTEST:
AND PASSED, IN OPEN SESSION. THIS ¥ DAY OF
.1995- ~cd. ~k <
CHAIRMAN'
~.C> LL~ , ......-
DONE. RATIFIED,
..00... fb~"/
r~ lo~ CLERK
nIIT1


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## Irishking23 (Dec 17, 2007)

jbfan said:


> 14 not allowed in my area= 12ga + muilti switches = normal day
> Even in the few areas it is allowed, I almost always run 12. I buy 14 by the 50' box


 
Recently purchased another home and discovered that much of it is in 14 gauge wiring with 15 amp circuits. My previous home had 12 ga. wiring with 20 amp + circuits. Frankly, I find the lighterweight 14 ga wiring on 15 amp circuits to be unsatisfactory and unable to handle routine household loads such as a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time. Never had this problem in my previous home with 12 ga wiring and 20+ amp circuits.

I also had to pay for new dedicated cricuits in the garage so I could also have an extra refrigerator and freezer out there. it seems like I am constantly running into the need for more and more dedicated circuits in this house.

Wish I could pull out all the 14 ga wiring on 20 amp circuits in this new home and put in 12 ga. However that is not feasible without tearing apart walls, etc.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Irish, if you have a home with #14 wire circuits in a kitchen it is either REAL old or was not wired to code to begin with. #12/20A has been code for a very long time in kitchens and even before that it was standard practice.
Don't blame the #14 wire, blame the original installer.

Also, even a 20A circuit will trip with _"a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time"_, IF everything is running. Do the math and see what I mean. Just being plugged in means nothing.
If they didn't trip before it's because something was not running and the breaker was probably near full capacity. Also, all three of these items, running simultaneously, is NOT "routine".


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## Irishking23 (Dec 17, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Irish, if you have a home with #14 wire circuits in a kitchen it is either REAL old or was not wired to code to begin with. #12/20A has been code for a very long time in kitchens and even before that it was standard practice.
> Don't blame the #14 wire, blame the original installer.
> 
> Also, even a 20A circuit will trip with _"a refrigerator, toaster and coffee pot plugged in at the same time"_, IF everything is running. Do the math and see what I mean. Just being plugged in means nothing.
> If they didn't trip before it's because something was not running and the breaker was probably near full capacity. Also, all three of these items, running simultaneously, is NOT "routine".


Speedy, this house was built around 1994 (Indianapolis, Indiana area) and I wouldn't call that very old. and YES it has real 14 ga wiring on a lot of 15 amp circuits.

Oops! Made a mistake about the outer kitchen circuit...it is 20 AMP and not 15. You're absolutely correct--a 20 amp circuit can't handle a refrigerator, coffee pot and toaster all running at the same time.

looks like I am going to need another dedicated circuit for the kitchen just for my refrigerator. Not sure how an electrician will be able to install a dedicated circuit from the breaker panel in the garage to the kitchen without having to run ugly conduit which I don't want.


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## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Irishking23 said:


> Speedy, this house was built around 1994 (Indianapolis, Indiana area) and I wouldn't call that very old. and YES it has real 14 ga wiring on a lot of 15 amp circuits.
> 
> Oops! Made a mistake about the outer kitchen circuit...it is 20 AMP and not 15. You're absolutely correct--a 20 amp circuit can't handle a refrigerator, coffee pot and toaster all running at the same time.
> 
> looks like I am going to need another dedicated circuit for the kitchen just for my refrigerator. Not sure how an electrician will be able to install a dedicated circuit from the breaker panel in the garage to the kitchen without having to run ugly conduit which I don't want.


do you have access to the attic? or a basement?


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## Irishking23 (Dec 17, 2007)

arichard21 said:


> do you have access to the attic? or a basement?


 
yes there is a basement underneath the kitchen and there is a master bath and walk-in closet above the kitchen on the second floor.

It is no wonder that the circuit breaker for our outer kitchen wall tripped. It is a 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator, toaster, coffee maker, overhead lights, center island and other things are on that 20 amp circuit.

The coffee maker alone takes 1100 Watts and the toaster 1,800 Watts for a total of 2,900 watts running those 2 appliances. Divide 2,900 watts by 120 and that comes out to over 20 amps. That 20 amp circuit can’t handle a refrigerator and other things.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

jbfan said:


> Here is the addmendment.
> Not sure why it copied like it did, but i fixed some of them
> 
> It is not allowed to extend a #14 circuit. If I can extend it, it must be #12.
> ...


 
JB's problem is that he lives in Coweta County, GA. :laughing::yes: 

Andy


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Irishking23 said:


> It is no wonder that the circuit breaker for our outer kitchen wall tripped. It is a 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator, toaster, coffee maker, overhead lights, center island and other things are on that 20 amp circuit.


If this house was built in 1994 this is/was an extreme code violation.


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## Irishking23 (Dec 17, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> If this house was built in 1994 this is/was an extreme code violation.


the Home Inspector never pointed any of this out either.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I don't doubt it. Although this might not be in the SOP of many inspectors. Many have a set routine that does not cover electrical very thoroughly.


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## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Irishking23 said:


> yes there is a basement underneath the kitchen and there is a master bath and walk-in closet above the kitchen on the second floor.


It SHOULD be fairly easy to run a dedicated cct to the fridge through the basement (if it is unfinished and/or it has a drop ceiling)


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## Irishking23 (Dec 17, 2007)

arichard21 said:


> It SHOULD be fairly easy to run a dedicated cct to the fridge through the basement (if it is unfinished and/or it has a drop ceiling)


I am afraid it won't be all that easy. The breaker panel is out in the garage which is on a slab foundation. The garage portion where the breaker panel is also sticks out several feet from the basement foundation under the main home. 

On the main floor there is also a large laundry room and walk-in pantry between the breaker panel in the garage and the kitchen.

Wiring a house after it has been built can be a complete headache. I don't know why the original builder/installer didn't put in a separate 20 amp circuit for the kitchen refrigerator.


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## Potomac101 (Dec 18, 2007)

If I should have started a new thread, please tell me, but this thread is closely related to my question.

Most of the outlets in my house are set up w/ 20 AMP breakers, 12 gauge copper wire, and 15 AMP outlets. Do the outlets have to be change to 20 AMP (or the breakers to 15 AMP)?

Also, some (all?) of the wires are connected to the outlets using the push holes in the back rather than the screws on the sides. It wasn't until today, while researching another issue, that I read that those holes should not be used for wires heavier than #12.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Potomac101 said:


> If I should have started a new thread, please tell me, but this thread is closely related to my question.
> 
> Most of the outlets in my house are set up w/ 20 AMP breakers, 12 gauge copper wire, and 15 AMP outlets. Do the outlets have to be change to 20 AMP (or the breakers to 15 AMP)?
> 
> Also, some (all?) of the wires are connected to the outlets using the push holes in the back rather than the screws on the sides. It wasn't until today, while researching another issue, that I read that those holes should not be used for wires heavier than #12.


Since you are here now! 15 amp recepticales are allowed to be used on 20 amp circuits as lonf as there are more than one.
How old is your house?
I can't remember it changed, but #12 used to be allowed to be backstabed.
If you are not having any problems, don't worry about it. If you have problems, then you know where to start looking!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Andy in ATL said:


> JB's problem is that he lives in Coweta County, GA. :laughing::yes:
> 
> Andy


Cheaper than Gwinnett, or is it Dekalb?:thumbup:


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> If this house was built in 1994 this is/was an extreme code violation.


 
Just the lights are in violation........right?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

See the bold:


Irishking23 said:


> It is no wonder that the circuit breaker for our outer kitchen wall tripped. It is a 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator, toaster, coffee maker, *overhead lights*, center island *and other things* are on that 20 amp circuit.


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## Potomac101 (Dec 18, 2007)

*Thanks, jbfan*

House is 18 years old.

Now to learn about power flowing through a circuit that has been cut off at the main panel - will start a new thread if I can't find something related.

I appreciate the help - 

potomac101


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## yungwunn911 (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi all, 

i'm a newbie. 
Could you tell me what the benefits of useing 12 or 14 gauge wire in some areas as opposed to others are.

-mike


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

yungwunn911 said:


> Could you tell me what the benefits of useing 12 or 14 gauge wire in some areas as opposed to others are.


The advantages of 12 awg is that is thicker and therefore can carry more current. It is used for 20 amp circuits. It is also used for 15 amp circuits that have to travel long distances to counter voltage drop. It is required by the NEC to provide power to at least 2 kitchen small appliance circuits, and in the bathroom, for the receptacle.

The advantages of 14 awg is that it is thinner, and therefore easier for some to terminate. It takes up less space in electrical boxes. It is also less expensive than 12. 

It cannot carry as much current as 12.


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