# Boiler Installation - Am I being gouged?



## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi Folks,

I have a small (1200 sq ft) rental house in Spokane, and it has a 20+ year old oil-fired boiler that's getting a bit dodgy. The local gas company will run gas up to the house and install the service for free, so I'm very interested in replacing the oil unit with a gas unit. The boiler is used to heat a radiant slab floor. 
I asked a local contractor how much he would charge to replace the oil unit with a natural gas unit, both for a 90+ AFUE and a less efficient unit, and he gave me the following:

I can install a Weil mc lain ultra 90+ gas boiler for $11,669.00 + tax, or... 
I can install a Slant-fin 80+ gas boiler for $7387.00 + tax


These prices sound very high to me, given that the cost of the boilers themselves... there's nothing tricky about the installation, either. Am I being unrealistic, or is this guy gouging me? I haven't agreed to anything yet, so if any of you can recommend a good installer in the Spokane area, I'm interested.


Thanks!
Mike G


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi Mike G.
Dude, you are being absolutely raped there. That sounds totally outrageous.
You should be able to buy a good natural gas boiler direct from the gas company for about $1,000. 

To hire someone to install it might run another 4-5K max.

You could probably install it yourself for a few hundred in material. 
I just looked into this very same idea. My neighbor just converted her old oil boiler to natural gas, hired a local company to do it, and I think it came out to about 5K.

Don't pay that much money man. Save your soul.


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for the support, Schmolze! I thought there was an excruciating sensation where the sun don't shine, but I wasn't sure it if was par for the course. The local gas company doesn't sell boilers, but they're offering $400 rebate on a purchase of a 90+ natural gas unit. I've found a number of high quality units in that efficiency range in the $1500 - $2500 range (Slant-Fin, Munchkin, Peerless, Weil-McLane, etc...), but it seemed like his labor rate was more like a prison back-massage. 

I wouldn't take a chance on installing it myself, based on location (I don't live in the Spokane area) and on the advice of many on this message board who emphasize the need for a really good installation... tempting, though... 

Thanks again for the input! I'll tell that contractor to go pound salt down a gopher hole (or offer me a reasonable price).

Cheers!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I was quoted around $5k to replace my oil boiler with a Weil-Mclain
I though that was a little high, but yours... 

I actually priced the model I need at under $2k


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

schmolze said:


> Hi Mike G.
> Dude, you are being absolutely raped there. That sounds totally outrageous.
> You should be able to buy a good natural gas boiler direct from the gas company for about $1,000.
> 
> ...


I have to take issue with your irresponsible post. I happen to be a pro and I can tell you are more smoke than you are substance in your uninformed statements. First, do you know what the prevailing market is like in the OP area?
Do you know what it will take to run a gas line and make the alterations necessary to sister a new boiler to and old piping system?

The tone of your whole post is an accusation against me and the other HVAC pros who give of our selves freely at no profit at this site.

*mahatmakain*:


certainly you have a right to feel the sticker shock of such a large investment. You are to be commended for considering a new system for a rental property, few land lords would do so.

My advice is to wait for a few more quotes. The one you have might seem high but if it's a guy you trust then it would be worthwhile. In my area the top shelf companies get top dollar cause they use good people, provide service and warranty
But feel free to wait for a few more opinions


.*schmolze* 

Don't quit your day job. I don' like being called a rape artist if by inference or thru you dis like of a price:furious:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I was quoted around $5k to replace my oil boiler with a Weil-Mclain
> I though that was a little high, but yours...
> 
> I actually priced the model I need at under $2k



Buying it your self?


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

alright, i apologize if i was incendiary and uninformed and offensive.
i think people need to calm down a bit though, and stop taking everything so personally.

as for the gas line, yes, it is my understanding that the company installs it for free as part of making you their customer.

i guess my perspective is different than yours, though not necessarily any less informed.

anyway, if i was grossly erroneneous in my statements, why don't you enlighten us by describing just how it owuld be possible to run up an 11K bill for a boiler installation...

again, no offense directed at anyone here. i simply called it as i saw it.
but relax, dude!


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

i didn't call my trainer an ass when he dropped 300 lb on my chest.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

For just an oil to gas conversion, that price sounds high no matter what part of the country your in. What are you getting done in addition to a boiler install?


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

well, i demanded my money back when my local HVAC guys came three times to "fix" my boiler, but it kept clogging up and spewing ash.turned out they never adjusted the air properly. i had to get an independent oil burner tech to come out and he found hte propblem instantly.

your trainer sounds like an idiot, too, for that matter.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Didn't demand my money back.


Just waited for my turn to spot him:thumbsup:



















Poor guy


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## JohnH1 (Jan 9, 2009)

mahatmakain said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a small (1200 sq ft) rental house in Spokane, and it has a 20+ year old oil-fired boiler that's getting a bit dodgy. The local gas company will run gas up to the house and install the service for free, so I'm very interested in replacing the oil unit with a gas unit. The boiler is used to heat a radiant slab floor.
> I asked a local contractor how much he would charge to replace the oil unit with a natural gas unit, both for a 90+ AFUE and a less efficient unit, and he gave me the following:
> ...


Just guessing but gas co may bring the line to the house but usually not in the house maby different in your area. Then possably since you asked for hi efficency the contractor thought you wanted a hi end install. New diaphram exp tank, feeder, air seporator, primary secondary pumping among many other options. Now that you are venting out the wall something needs to be done with the chimney it is now to big for just the water heater needs a liner and maby a cleaning. Or did he include a water heater also. Then is he removing the oil tank or capping off. There are a lot of things that go into a great install and can reach that price range. Or you can take a high end boiler pipe it in and out like the old system and get what you pay for. Get some other proposals and do some compairson shopping for like installations not just the same boiler. *The equipment has very little to do with a quality install. Like most things it is all in the details.* Sorry for the rant but I loose installations to the cheep installers and then get the call from the customer after the fact for help to fix what the others had done.:furious:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

JohnH1 said:


> Just guessing but gas co may bring the line to the house but usually not in the house maby different in your area. Then possably since you asked for hi efficency the contractor thought you wanted a hi end install. New diaphram exp tank, feeder, air seporator, primary secondary pumping among many other options. Now that you are venting out the wall something needs to be done with the chimney it is now to big for just the water heater needs a liner and maby a cleaning. Or did he include a water heater also. Then is he removing the oil tank or capping off. There are a lot of things that go into a great install and can reach that price range. Or you can take a high end boiler pipe it in and out like the old system and get what you pay for. Get some other proposals and do some compairson shopping for like installations not just the same boiler. *The equipment has very little to do with a quality install. Like most things it is all in the details.* Sorry for the rant but I loose installations to the cheep installers and then get the call from the customer after the fact for help to fix what the others had done.:furious:



Thanks big John. I knew somebody would put it in prospective. That was hardly a rant. That was some solid consumer advice.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Good mod/con boilers arent cheap.

Do those prices also include disconnecting and removing the old boiler.

Does it also include an indirect water heater.

Does it also include the additional cde required safeties that arn't included with the boiler.

Does it include a second irclator for primary secondary piping.

Are there any special things that neeed to be done to install a new boiler.

How long of a gas line run is it.


Since you don't say what is or isn't included for the price.

Anyone telling you that its a good or bad price is talking out their as.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

beenthere said:


> Good mod/con boilers arent cheap.
> 
> Do those prices also include disconnecting and removing the old boiler.
> 
> ...


OBI WAN BEEN THERE has spoken. Let it be so:yes:


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Time to step in here... First, I really appreciate the experience you're sharing on this question. I feel a bit paranoid because I know nothing about what to expect in this type of work, and having been an auto mechanic, I know there are cases where the service provider isn't ethical, while in other cases, they are, independently of the price they charge. What is clear from this thread is that I need to get a break-down of what services are going to be provided for the quotes given. 

For example, I doubt the contractor would remove a buried oil tank as part of the quote (I'm guessing that would be more in the $5,000 to $8,000 range, alone), and I know that the gas line and service meter will be installed for free by the gas company (I told this to the contractor), but that would only go to the exterior wall of the house, adjacent to the boiler location (inside the house). 

I assumed the job would require him to disconnect the existing water lines, oil feed, and electricity from the old boiler, unbolt it and take it away. Then place the new boiler, connect the water lines and electrical lines, and route the gas line from the meter, through the wall, and up to the boiler. Lastly, I'm fairly sure it would require a modification to the chimney. Perhaps there's more to it... but without a breakdown, it's all speculation. I'll get a breakdown of the tasks involved, and find out how much he's charging just for the boiler itself. He's not an independent, but rather, works for a local heating oil company, and there could be some additional overhead because of that. 

The main thing is, you've all given me a lot to think about, and some important guidelines for how to proceed with the estimation process. If his cost for the boiler is in the $2500 range that I think is reasonable (for the 90+ AFUE), it'll be interesting to know how the other $9,000 will be spent. It's also peculiar that there's a $4,300 difference in price between a 90+ and an 80+ boiler installation. The labor for each install should be pretty much the same (I think), and if so, it means he's charging $4,300 more for the 90+ than the 80+... which doesn't sound right. 

I'll post my findings here. Thanks again, guys. I'm learning a lot. 

Mike (mahatmakain)


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Labor time to install a 90% can be much more then for the 80%.
90%ers can't be vented in your chimney.
So he has to run a new vent system.

Just some material he may use for your installation.
1 ¼” copper pipe
1” copper pipe
¾” copper pipe
½” copper pipe
5 balls valves (hydronic side)
Flow check valve/valves
Back flow preventer
Auto water feed
Low Water Cut Off
Second circulator
Y Strainer
Numerous copper fittings
(ells, tee’s, coupling, reducing couplings, adapters (sweat to IP)
Condensate pump
Associated condensate drain line 
Hangers
Thermostat wire
PVC/Stainless Steel vent pipe
Fasteners (for gas line, water pipes, and vent system)
Solder, Flux, Torch gas, sand paper/emery cloth
Pipe dope
MC for electric
Emergency off switch
Service disconnect switch
1 ball valve/gas stop
Drip tee set up fittings
Gas line from meter to boiler

Just a very quick short list of some material that gets used on boiler change outs.

Many contractors, don't break out individual items, or small items.
They include them as a percentage of the boiler cost. So you end up with a contractor that seems to charge a lot for the boiler. When in fact, he is including materials in that price.

Be leary of the guy that says X amount is too much for what ever boiler. He doesn't know how the contractor is covering the cost of the material to install the boiler.

Next. Some contractors include warranty (labor) cost in the equipment and material charge, while others include it in the labor charge.
Still others include it as a misc fee.

After all, you don't want to pay labor if it fails in 6 months, for him to repair it, do you?

The manufacturer doesn't pay us to fix their equipment. And some times, charges us a delivery/shipping fee for those parts, that you won't pay us for.

There is a lot more to figuring out how much to charge for equipment and installation, then just what those items cost wholesale.

If we didnt have to provide labor warranty. We wouldn't need to charge as much.

But then, we'd be accused of installing things so they break, so we can charge money to fix it.


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## tk03 (Sep 30, 2008)

The price is only secondary at this point. You are just talking about the replacement. Did he do a heat loss? Did he measure the home, windows, doors, and gather insulation values? If not there is no way he can give you a price. He may have quoted an estimate which may have been high to cover larger boiler than required. DO NOT EVER HAVE A HEATING APPLIANCE INSTALLED WITHOUT A HEAT LOSS OR AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT WITHOUT A HEAT GAIN.......EVER!!!!!!!!!!


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

No heat calculations were done as part of this estimate - he's just doing a straight conversion at the same capacity as the old boiler, but with gas instead of oil. The price he's charging for the boiler itself (Weil McLain UG-80) is $5344, and he'll only install it if he buys it, at that price. I've found the same boiler at PexSupply.com for $3160 ( http://www.pexsupply.com/product_dtl.asp?pID=11107&brand=Weil Mclain&cID= ), so there seems to be a hefty mark up there. As suggested by someone earlier, it could be that he's folding his warranty cost into the purchase price, but then again, he's also charging around $6,000 for labor and the various parts (which he said would cost around $65). Even if it's a three-day job, that's nearly $2,000/day for labor ($250/hr). So, maybe he would have an assistant working with him, but even so, that would be a lot of money.

I'm not against paying more for high quality, and I have no reason to doubt this guy's skill or craftsmanship, but there's also a reasonable limit to how much a job should cost, even at a high level of quality. I'll ask around for estimates from other businesses and get a feel for the range... maybe he's right where he should be.

Thanks again, guys.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My current furnace is almost double what I need based on a heat loss calc that was done - 1640 sq ft. Increasing the house to almost 3,000 sq ft the same furnace will heat the added space
But since its old it will be replaced when the addition is completed


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Also check with you local gas company, there may be an oil to gas conversion incentive that would drive down the price. Is your plumber including any outdoor reset controls or anything that the mod/con boiler can utilize to get the full efficiency out of it?


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

I'll check to see if any outdoor reset controls are going to be included (though I don't know what those are). I got an explanation of the high cost ($5344) of the boiler - he said he buys the boiler and all needed additional parts as a package (Low water cut off, back flow preventer, spring check, expansion tank, Spiro vent, Hartford loop pump, and y strainer with plug). So that's looking better.

The Spokane gas company offers only a $400 incentive for using a 90+ AFUE gas boiler, though the cost differential, including installation, is over $4,000. Not terribly tempting for me as the owner of a rental property. 

Today I learned that the tank in the boiler cracked when the pipes froze, so the boiler has to be replaced right away (I'd originally hoped to do it during the summer). I'm not prepared to pay out this kind of money at the moment, but if I'm lucky, the insurance company will cover the cost. The only question is whether they'll accept that the tank cracked due to freezing water, or simply because it's old (over 20 years). If they'll cover the cost of buying and installing a new oil fired unit, I could comfortably cover the differential for a gas-fired unit instead. Things do have a way of getting interesting...


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

tk03 said:


> The price is only secondary at this point. You are just talking about the replacement. Did he do a heat loss? Did he measure the home, windows, doors, and gather insulation values? If not there is no way he can give you a price. He may have quoted an estimate which may have been high to cover larger boiler than required. DO NOT EVER HAVE A HEATING APPLIANCE INSTALLED WITHOUT A HEAT LOSS OR AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT WITHOUT A HEAT GAIN.......EVER!!!!!!!!!!


There's exceptions.


:huh: Just ask if you your curious


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## drewhart (Jul 13, 2008)

to install a new boiler (lochinvar solution copper fin 130,000 btu) along with an extra pump, and a new expansion tank, i was quoted $5,950. which, for me, exceeds my budget. i am looking into installing a furnace to heat the first floor with supplimental electric baseboard heat on the second.


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## theheater (Feb 12, 2009)

ask the contractor if change out includes new, pumps and controls..dont use zone valves,and in no way is a high eff gas boiler 4000.00 more than a standard 80-85%eff one...instalation is basically the same other than direct venting the high eff unit..if you decide to go with lower eff boiler and use the old chimney,make sure instalation includes a chimney liner....p.s..go with a buderus boiler-you wont regret it...our company has installed over 150 units this past year...and as a service company as well..we rarely go back on a buderus....hope this helps


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

Mahatma,
I would definitely pass on this guy, man.
Your own reticence should be the major indicator here.

Get some other quotes.

By the way - who is he? Just some plumbing/heating guy, or is he an exclusive heating technician?

I had been hiring this local "plumbing and heating" company to service my boiler, and it kept fouling up. Finally I called an exclusive oil burner technician. It turned out that no one had ever bothered to adjust the air intake into the burner! It had been that way for years with the previous owner when the oil company had been servicing it ("all the time," as my neighbor tells me).

The point is, get someone who only does this kind of work.

The same tech who has fixed my boiler (and my dad's) quoted me on switching to a new natural gas unit, as follows:

$1K for the Buderus wall mounted, direct-vented
$4-$5K for the installation.

He was actually encouraging me to get the boiler myself for as cheap as I could. Now there is someone I'd want to do business with! This guy is guaranteed the job if I ever get enough money to proceed with it.

Also, I would never ever do business with anyone who refuses to let me source my own product. Why in hell pay this guy a $2,000 markup for hte boiler? There is simply no valid reason for it, other than for him to pocket the money.

When I had my electrical service upgraded the electrician let me at least buy my own panel and breakers. Sure I saved at least a few bucks there...
I hired this guy because he was flexible in that regard, while the other quote was not.

Shop it around. Call the gas company and find out exactly what they can do for you. They can probably even sell you the boiler directly through incentives at a much lower cost.


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

It's all a more difficult because I live over a thousand miles away from the rental property and I can only get up there once in a while. To some extent, I have to trust the contractors I'm hiring to do this work, otherwise I would probably be more aggressive about getting lower price quotes. In answer to the question from Schmolze, "By the way - who is he? Just some plumbing/heating guy, or is he an exclusive heating technician?", he's a boiler mechanic who currently works for the furnace and heating fuel company in Spokane, but he's been doing boilers for 28 years. I talked to the guy at the gas/utility in Spokane, and he knows of this boiler mechanic from the years he's been working for the utility... I guess he's been in the area doing this kind of work for a long time. It's still a pretty steep price to pay, but I'm hoping I'll get quality in proportion to the cost. I sent an email to another boiler service company in the city and asked if they would like to give a quote for such an installation, but they never responded. I could try contacting several, but I really have no way of judging the competence or honesty of different providers since I can't be there to meet them in-person. It's definitely a less-than-ideal situation.

I will schedule a flight up there in the next two weeks, which should put me on the scene while the boiler installation is in progress (we're working with the insurance company now to make sure they'll cover the cost of an in-kind replacement... the money for that would be applied to the cost of a conversion to NG. Should be quite interesting. I have a civil engineering degree and I was a car mechanic before that, so maybe, between those two, I'll be able to tell if this guy's BSing me or just charging a premium for real expertise. I'll update as the situation develops.

Thanks again, folks.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

schmolze said:


> Mahatma,
> 
> 
> The point is, get someone who only does this kind of work.
> ...


By having you provide the boiler.
He doesn't have to give you a warranty on it.


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

mahatmakain said:


> It's all a more difficult because I live over a thousand miles away from the rental property and I can only get up there once in a while. To some extent, I have to trust the contractors I'm hiring to do this work, otherwise I would probably be more aggressive about getting lower price quotes. In answer to the question from Schmolze, "By the way - who is he? Just some plumbing/heating guy, or is he an exclusive heating technician?", he's a boiler mechanic who currently works for the furnace and heating fuel company in Spokane, but he's been doing boilers for 28 years. I talked to the guy at the gas/utility in Spokane, and he knows of this boiler mechanic from the years he's been working for the utility... I guess he's been in the area doing this kind of work for a long time. It's still a pretty steep price to pay, but I'm hoping I'll get quality in proportion to the cost. I sent an email to another boiler service company in the city and asked if they would like to give a quote for such an installation, but they never responded. I could try contacting several, but I really have no way of judging the competence or honesty of different providers since I can't be there to meet them in-person. It's definitely a less-than-ideal situation.
> 
> I will schedule a flight up there in the next two weeks, which should put me on the scene while the boiler installation is in progress (we're working with the insurance company now to make sure they'll cover the cost of an in-kind replacement... the money for that would be applied to the cost of a conversion to NG. Should be quite interesting. I have a civil engineering degree and I was a car mechanic before that, so maybe, between those two, I'll be able to tell if this guy's BSing me or just charging a premium for real expertise. I'll update as the situation develops.
> 
> Thanks again, folks.



The fact this guy works for the fuel company is a huge no-no.
It would be worth your time to fly out there, spend a week lining up an independent boiler technician, and oversee the installation, if possible.
Otherwise, you will be well taken advantage.

By the way, your 20+ year old boiler isn't at all that old. Mine is close to 50, and working perfectly now that the air intake has been fixed. The fact it's a bit "dodgy" is probably because the oil company has been servicing it all this time.
I would get an exclusive oil burner technician to take a look at your existing system. Might be something simply fixed, or, the same guy can quote you on the new system.


Good luck, man.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

schmolze said:


> The fact this guy works for the fuel company is a huge no-no.
> It would be worth your time to fly out there, spend a week lining up an independent boiler technician, and oversee the installation, if possible.
> Otherwise, you will be well taken advantage.
> 
> ...



Yeah man, you are so right about the old stuff being so much butter!


I have a 1970 Plymouth with a 440 cu in engine with a quad carb. I just keep throwing parts at it and a little body work here and there. Who cares if I get six miles per gallon. Think of the money I am saving not buying a new car!:thumbsup:

Sir, you are either the biggest penny pincher I have ever seen or you just like higher fuel bills.:no:


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

I see your point hvaclover, but come on.
How long would it take Mahatma to realize the nearly $12,000 upfront cost in burning efficiency? Maybe he'd save a few hundred per year? By the time he goes to replace the natural gas unit 20 years from now, it would just be maybe paying for itself.

The fact is, oil and natural gas are at basically the same price. If his existing system were running fine, you'd have to examine long and hard just how worth it it would be to switch at this point. After all, we're in a frigging depression here, man.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

The point is the fifty year old system is in efficient in in every way that counts.

More water usage, more fuel consumptive, hotter water temp in stand by.More heat up the flue than new models.

And come on, fifty years? How much longer do you think the the water holding section will last before the stress of heating up and cooling off after so many years will last before it cracks?

I loved my 73 Roadrunner but I would not drive one to day even if it came off the assembly line yesterday.


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

i was talking about his 20 year old, not my 50 year old. regardless, mine is running perfectly. i see no reason to replace it just because it might crack some day.
i do look forward to the day it cracks, so i have a valid reason to replace it. until then, i keep the t-stat at 50, and will soon be installing a separate water heater to be able to shut the boiler off soon.

i'm penny pinching out of necessity, by the way, not because i enjoy it, necessarily.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Just don't build a campfire in your front room to keep warm. I hear that is a fire hazard.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

hvaclover said:


> Just don't build a campfire in your front room to keep warm. I hear that is a fire hazard.


Uhhh...but I do that :wink:
Well....in the fireplace
If this house had a 50 year old boiler it would have been the 1st thing replaced when we bought the house. And would have been an excellent bargaining chip to shave $5k+ off the cost of the house


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## wombosi (Apr 22, 2008)

I bought the house "as is" from a little old lady. It wasn't even technically for sale. No realtor, no broker, nothing. I made an offer, and it was accepted.The price I paid, in this town and location, is unheard of (low).

So the old boiler is a moot point. Yes, I'd like to replace it when I get the money together. I understand your points about efficiency. The truth is right now I've got far bigger fish to fry (insulating the place, for one).

Thanks.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

So you took advantage of a little ole lady.....nice....:whistling2:


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

quote[I bought the house "as is" from a little old lady. _*It wasn't even technically for sale.]quote


 *_Oh my God! He knocked off the little old lady!!!!:laughing:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Maybe he got her old "low mileage T-Bird" also. LOL :laughing:
Didn't the Beach Boys have a song about that?


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

"Little Old Lady From Pasadena" go Granny, go Granny, Go Granny go:laughing:


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Time for an update in the Mahatma-oil-to-gas-conversion saga... The insurance company is going to give me a hard time about replacing the boiler (which has a cracked tank) because their policy is to not pay the cost of fixing the cause of the damage. In my mind, the cause of the damage was the burner malfunction. The tank cracked several days later (I assume) as the empty house froze. Anyway, we're going to argue about that. I got another quote for the replacement of the boiler, from a boiler-mechanical company, in business since 1967. They said they would install a 96% slant fin for $7K + change. Substantially better than the $11K quoted by the first guy. I may have to pay for this out of pocket, so it's a big improvement. 
Now we're testing the radiant heat circulation system and finding a few issues... We pressurized with air to 40 psi and saw no noticeable change in the first 30 minutes. Came back the next morning and saw there was zero pressure. Checked all the caps (we capped all bleed valves) and re-pressurized. Again, seemed stable, but by next morning, it was down to zero again. A boiler guy said a very slow leak like that might be coming through the pressure gage, or it could be due to pin-holes in the pipes. We'll use thick dish soap to check for bubbles after we pressurize again, but if it turns out to be a small leak in the pipes inside the slab, we're told we could use boiler seal, or some compound like it to seal the system. He said we should be careful to flush out the sealing additive before connecting the boiler to the heat circulation pipes because boilers - especially condensing boilers - don't like having anything but water in them.
Your thoughts on how well boiler seal (or some equivalent) works? How about the slow leak...? Thoughts on a better way to test the circulation system?

Much obliged, folks.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Boilers and pipes need to be hydrostatically pressure tested. That is using water under pressure. It may hold water pressure fine but leak air. Usually you fill the system and let it get to room temp and then pressurize it. High efficiency condensing boilers ABSOLUTELY HATE foreign material and need proper flushing. Otherwise you end up with water hammer sounds as they run the jacket REAL hot.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I sure wouldn't use boiler seal in a high efficiency boiler.

If you put boiler seal in teh pipes, to seal the leak. And then flush the pipes out. You have a leak again, when teh pipes heat up.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Once again comparing prices which may not be comparing quality. Apples to Oranges. From the boilers I have seen/worked on and talking to my pro plumbers, Slant Fin is like a Chevy Cavalier and the Weil Mclain is a Buick. If it is just a rental house why don't you get a 84% Weil McLain:
http://www.weil-mclain.com/products/display/2-CGi
which can be direct vented out a wall FYI. A lot simpler and more reliable IMO.

Good Luck


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> Once again comparing prices which may not be comparing quality. Apples to Oranges. From the boilers I have seen/worked on and talking to my pro plumbers, Slant Fin is like a Chevy Cavalier and the Weil Mclain is a Buick. If it is just a rental house why don't you get a 84% Weil McLain:
> http://www.weil-mclain.com/products/display/2-CGi
> which can be direct vented out a wall FYI. A lot simpler and more reliable IMO.
> 
> Good Luck


The scary thing.

Someone is going to install that 96% Slantfin, for the same price as someone wanted for an 80% Slantfin.

Wonder what piping short cuts they're gonna take.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Thats why my customers are willing to pay top dollar $$ for what we sell. We take NO shortcuts but charge accordingly and use high quality professional plumbers and installers and sell top notch equipment. When a person buys a machine to last 20 yrs saving $1000/20 yrs = $50 /yr. Wise people do their research and deal with reputable firms and not shop around for the cheapest price.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I like going out. And finding a 90%+ boiler, that has been piped up that it only has ½ the water flow going through it, that it should have.
And the customer tells me that they are using more gas now then with the old clunker.

Money to be made. Repiping takes much longer, and cost more.


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, guys. I've now had a number of contractors out to look at the job and the consensus is that it's a straightforward installation. From my conversations with the original mechanic (over the phone), my sense is that he would do quality work, but he's an employee of the local fuel oil company and I have no idea how much their overhead is. They may be inflating the cost quite a bit, whereas, if it were him working independently, the price would be more competitive. I've done all the research I can online (BBB records, license status with the state of Washington, combing contractor rating sites, customer ratings from online directories, etc...) but I haven't found any reviews or opinions on any of them. BBB records show that every such business has had some complaints over the years, but all have been resolved and the number of complaints is proportional to the size of the company. Some complaints are unavoidable, so I don't worry too much about that. I'll get a few more bids on the job, though.
* I was curious about the comment that Slant Fin and Weil McLain are like Chevy and Buick... I don't know if that means you think they're good or lousy. If the latter, are there brands that are widely considered superior? The earliest posts in this thread stated that most boilers these days are capable of working well for decades if properly installed...
* Point taken about using a lower efficiency boiler: 1. Easier installation (less likelihood of problems later); 2. Lower price; 3. Makes better business sense (being that it's a rental property)
* If pipe sealant is needed, the product I've looked at, Liquid Boiler Seal (GUNK), requires the system to be at full temp before adding, and maintained there for 24 hours before flushing. If I understand correctly, this could only be done with a low-efficiency boiler that doesn't use a water-lubricated pump. Another reason to use a low AFUE boiler, I guess.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Most boilers will work properly if maintained. However the better quality ones use thicker and better metals and may go over 25 yrs. Slant fin IMO is a lighter duty boiler vs Weil McLain which is one of the top rated by my plumbers who service lots of them. Not sure about Burnham as they are not popular here. Corrosion occurs in all boilers and the thicker ones may last longer, handle stress better. You get what you pay for. If you have a leak those stop gap additives are probably a not good idea/temporary fix. Just like a car radiator it is a stop gap measure. Best to find the leak and fix it properly.


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

I agree that it's better to find the leak and fix it, but in this case, the leak (if there is one) is in the heat exchange pipes built into the radiant slab floor. It would be more expensive than I'm willing to pay, to do open-slab surgery, so if the sealant doesn't fix the leak, I'll switch to another type of heat in that house.
Thanks for sharing your opinion on boiler brands, Yuri. This chatroom is a great resource!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

So if the sealant holds until the middle of next winter. And then leaks.
What are you going to do.

And yes, that has happened to more then system.


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

_To beenthere_: Well, then I'd consider installing radiant panels in the rooms, I guess... I don't know the success rate of those sealant treatments, so I have nothing by which to evaluate the options. We're not really sure, yet, if there is a leak. Earlier, Yuri said the pipes have to be hydrostatically tested, but I found boiler testing instructions that specify using 30 psi of air to test the radiant section. Yuri's argument was that you might have leakage with an air test that wouldn't be there with a water test, so if we find that the system holds pressure with a water test, the sealant option becomes a non-issue. I'm hoping for that.
If the system is leaking, I'm even considering killing off the boiler completely and switching to a furnace and ducts to heat the house.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Then why not just do a hydrostatic test???


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## mahatmakain (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh, we are doing that test. It's going on right now.


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## Renovator2209 (Jan 15, 2010)

*Boiler*

Most boiler units are not that complex. If you look at the mechanics and parts. Ask yourself, how much can it cost? During the winter months, I got quotes from 12,000.00 to 20,000.00 for a new steam boiler system for a 3500 sq ft house. I waited until the following summer and had one installed for 5700.00. Later, I found the same unit at a distributor for 1200.00. In my opinion, you will get "hit" big time during the winter months. It's what the market will bare. That the key words. Installers know that you do not want to freeze. So, how much are you willing to pay for heat in the winter ? Some people are out to advantage of buyers in the winter. You either pay the high prices now ( during the cold months) or wait till the summer and pay less. For 11,000.00. I would blow out my pipes , shut the house down, and move in with relatives until the warmer months and replace the system at a reasonable price.


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## hvaclover (Oct 2, 2008)

Renovator2209 said:


> Most boiler units are not that complex. If you look at the mechanics and parts. Ask yourself, how much can it cost? During the winter months, I got quotes from 12,000.00 to 20,000.00 for a new steam boiler system for a 3500 sq ft house. I waited until the following summer and had one installed for 5700.00. Later, I found the same unit at a distributor for 1200.00. In my opinion, you will get "hit" big time during the winter months. It's what the market will bare. That the key words. Installers know that you do not want to freeze. So, how much are you willing to pay for heat in the winter ? Some people are out to advantage of buyers in the winter. You either pay the high prices now ( during the cold months) or wait till the summer and pay less. For 11,000.00. I would blow out my pipes , shut the house down, and move in with relatives until the warmer months and replace the system at a reasonable price.



Gotta wonder what kind of job you got for that money.


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