# An Honest Opinion of Ceiling Work Done



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

There is not much to say about that, that you have not thought already.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh boy, where do I start.
#1, It should have been 5/8 fire code rock, I would not even use 3/8" on a wall.
#2, Unless there was an issue with trying to get the rock into that area 12' pieces should have been used for less seams.
It's going to sag and crack between joist of it's really only 3/8.
I would have fired him as soon as I saw him show up trying to use that!
He would have to be a world class sheet rocker to be able to get this right in one coat without hundreds of flaws. 
Let me guess, he also thinks he's also going to be able to paint this with primmer and paint in one, if so there's another reason he needs to go.
No way is a real pro going to ever use a plastic knife for this job!
Only time I use one is for things like roof tar so I can toss it instead of cleaning it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

I thought that you said , you hired a Contractor?

I have not seen work like that since day one of my high school class in drywall in basic construction.

The Teacher said that was an example of how NOT to do it. 

Even BOOB Villa, did better work than that, and he is a hack grade worker. 

Anyone that shows up with just an ice scraper, is a damned fool. 
And would be sent down the road. 

It's not a total loss, but cleaning it up, is going to get very messy.


ED


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> I thought that you said , you hired a Contractor?
> 
> I have not seen work like that since day one of my high school class in drywall in basic construction.
> 
> ...


But isn't it a total loss? Everything I have read said that 3/8" drywall is going to sag between the joists especially since the long side is installed parallel to the joists. My plan is to take it completely down and have it started over. Are you saying it can be salvaged?


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

I should also add that the plan for the gaps between the wall and ceiling was to use "silicone" and then mud. I should also say that I was not home during this - it was my wife and she has no drywall experience and just trusted them.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Good lord, for some reason all those other pictures did not come up the first to I pulled up your post.
I've seen first time DIY's do better then that!
Looks like he muded the seams without taping first.
That hole looks like they cut it out with a chainsaw.
Where's the tape on the inside corners?
The seams where done with to narrow a knife.
A real pro could have done this and almost made it look like a finished coat the first time.
Now there's going to be hours wasted sanding, room and everything else covered in dust and at least another done.
If he really used 3/8. and there's no tape on the seams it's a tare down and total do over.
If it's that bad I'd also guess he did not use enough screws also.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Silicone for what?
Paint and drywall muds not going to stick to silicone.
It should have been taped and mudded.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

AJ_T said:


> But isn't it a total loss? Everything I have read said that 3/8" drywall is going to sag between the joists especially since the long side is installed parallel to the joists. My plan is to take it completely down and have it started over. Are you saying it can be salvaged?


That depends on if you have easy access to the attic side and can add 2X4 cross braces, to screw the drywall to from joist to joist. 

I would not allow this un-pro back in my house. 

Have his "tools" sitting at the curb tomorrow, upon his arrival, and send them away. 

But as others said 3/8 is a bit weak, and you would prefer at least 1/2 drywall up there. 

I wish you luck with this person, and take more pictures for court if it gets to that, if he demands to be paid for this mess.


ED


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

joecaption said:


> Good lord, for some reason all those other pictures did not come up the first to I pulled up your post.
> I've seen first time DIY's do better then that!
> Looks like he muded the seams without taping first.
> That hole looks like they cut it out with a chainsaw.
> ...


I used the wrong format for the images at first - you probably checked in as I was fixing.

There is mesh tape in the joints. I thought for ceiling that the paper tape would have a nicer finish. But I have read both can be used.

It is for sure 3/8 " (would have been $30 more to go 5/8). Definitely not enough screws. And as I mentioned, the layout going parallel with the joists makes me think a tear down is the only option.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I can not think of a single reason I'd use 3/8 drywall for!
No way is it going to hold up on a ceiling, between the sagging, seam cracks, screw pops it will be a night mare.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

No way once again would a real pro ever used mesh tape for the seams!
By doing that you would have to use about a 12" wide knife to get it to look some what even and not have all the web holes still showing.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

joecaption said:


> I can not think of a single reason I'd use 3/8 drywall for!
> No way is it going to hold up on a ceiling, between the sagging, seam cracks, screw pops it will be a night mare.


It was only 10 sheets - going 5/8" would have been $30 more -mind bogggling. They chose 3/8 because they did not know what they were doing. We fell for a con because we were lazy and did not investigate the way we normally do. Seemed like a simple job. Thankfully it will not cost a fortune like some nightmare jobs cost others.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

By telling us he ran the panels that way as well as all the other stuff, this had to be the first time he has other done this type of work.
Where did you find this guy?
Does he even have a licence?
There's no location in your profile, but in VA you can report them if they have a licence and can get there licence revoked and in some cases get paid for the rework and they will sue the worker for you.
I for sure would at least contact the BBB and file a report with pictures.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

People like this just make it hard for real contractors that give a poop about there work and give us all a bad name.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

joecaption said:


> People like this just make it hard for real contractors that give a poop about there work and give us all a bad name.


In this day an age, it is not hard to separate the pros from the non-pros. Reviews, pictures, social media, etc - it is 100% on us for not taking the 5 minutes it would have to catch this. Just looking at his facebook page would have been all that was needed. I think it was a combination of it being a small job, the enticing price and sympathy that made us be lazy. So hopefully your potential customers won't be lazy like we were!


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Wow. Don't let a con man like that back in the house. Better check stuff wherever they had access to and see if something's missing. At least it's only $80 in drywall chalked up to experience, and a lot more labor for you.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

The older I get the more I like 3/8" drywall - it's easier on an old tired back! But without extra framing it will sag. 1/2" is generally ok for ceilings if the ceiling joists are on 16" centers, otherwise you should use 5/8"


Sticky tape [mesh] has a poor track record when used with regular pre mixed joint compound. It needs a setting compound applied directly over it to help 'lock' it down.


Before I'd sand all that down I'd take a wet sponge and try to remove what I could ..... but I'd be more inclined to tear it down and start over!


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

AJ_T said:


> It is for sure 3/8 " (would have been $30 more to go 5/8).


OK, now I get it, you were looking for "a deal".

Well, you got what you paid for. 

.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

SPS-1 said:


> OK, now I get it, you were looking for "a deal".
> 
> Well, you got what you paid for.
> 
> ...


The 5/8" would have been $30 more. $30 is insignificant - I would have gladly paid the $30 more. We did not even discuss the thickness of the drywall. We left it to them to use the right drywall (which was dumb in retrospect.)


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

That is why in today's world contracts that specify just what is to be done and material used is necessary. Used to be most contractors would know and expect to do a quality job but today there are so many folks out there calling themselves a contractor when all they really know is getting paid once the job resembles being done.


It's best to check your contractor's references before you sign a contract!!!!


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Clearly, that was his first time mudding drywall, so cut him a little slack.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

> Clearly, that was his first time mudding drywall


A blind chef with no arms can frost a cake better. And then cut a smoother slice using a banana.


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

Properly done by a professional sheetrock worker the mud and seams should be smooth and not require any sanding at all. What you go was the poor work done by someone who is clueless and does not give a damn. I would not have it redone but I would not pay extra for sanding that would not be needed had the seams been done right in the first place.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

That work sucks.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I am not a pro, just a DIYer. But I have never done mud that bad in my life, including my first attempt. I hope its good, hard, setting compound.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

Good news everyone. I took care if all the crappy work that was done!


















I had no choice but to scrap the thing entirely. There was no saving it. The sheet rock was too thin (3/8") and it was installed parallel to the joists which are 20" apart. Even if they managed to get the seams done right (which would not be possible) the ceiling would be sagging within a few weeks. It was a joke. I took one board out and then gave the edge a very modest pull and almost the entire ceiling came down in one piece. There were entire sheets that had only 4 screws holding it up. A total and complete joke. Lesson learned!

Thanks to all those that replied.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I applaud you.

Well done, with just 4 screws per sheet, it's a wonder that it was even hanging there at all.

I hope that this did not cost you anything, but it would be worth it, for the lesson learned.



ED 

Ps: where you at, that landfill looks familiar, of course most all landfills look similar.

Adding your location to your USERCP, upper left, will display a location, in all your posts, see mine to the left, and maybe help us to know better what will be beneficial to you, in later questions, now that you got the DIY bug.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

.... and you now know why most of us diy!


If you have any questions going forward - just ask. I would add that I would rather add an extra coat of mud than do any extra sanding.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

mark sr said:


> .... and you now know why most of us diy!
> 
> 
> If you have any questions going forward - just ask. I would add that I would rather add an extra coat of mud than do any extra sanding.


I try and do as much DIY as I can. I have done quite a bit of drywall, but I don’t have that knack to make it look totally professional. I figured that since this was a flat white ceiling any imperfection was going to stand out. I figured it was best to get a pro to do it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

AJ_T said:


> I try and do as much DIY as I can. I have done quite a bit of drywall, but I don’t have that knack to make it look totally professional. I figured that since this was a flat white ceiling any imperfection was going to stand out. I figured it was best to get a pro to do it.


Why not hang the rock yourself, then get a REAL MUDDER, in to do the taping, mudding, and possible smoothing.

Then do your own painting.

That way, at least you know how it was hung, and don't have to worry that It's going to fall on your head.


ED


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> Ps: where you at, that landfill looks familiar, of course most all landfills look similar.
> 
> Adding your location to your USERCP, upper left, will display a location, in all your posts, see mine to the left, and maybe help us to know better what will be beneficial to you, in later questions, now that you got the DIY bug.


Landfill is in White Marsh MD


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## DerfIV (Sep 12, 2019)

SPS-1 said:


> I am not a pro, just a DIYer. But I have never done mud that bad in my life, including my first attempt.


I was thinking the same thing, looking at those photos in disbelief. I could (and have) done better than that on a small bit of drywall just from reading a book, no one to teach me. Whoever did that didn't even bother to read a book on the topic.

OP was wise to rip it all out.

White Marsh, MD isn't all that far from us, and hour and a half or so. My wife's nephew & his family live near there and we're over there often.


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

DerfIV said:


> .... OP was wise to rip it all out.....


To be fair, it was not really a "rip" - more like a weak pull and almost the entire thing came down in one piece.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> I figured it was best to get a pro to do it


. 



The problem is you didn't get a pro :sad:
If you decide to hire it out - get/check references!!
A flat ceiling is within the scope of a motivated diyer. If you go that route, once you think you have it right shine a bright light on the ceiling and view it from an angle. That normally highlights any spots that need more work.


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## JLawrence08648 (Mar 1, 2019)

The minimum size knives should be 4", 6", 8", 12" to do an effective job. I also have 1", 2", 3", & 10". When you get good, you should have no need to sand between coats, and not until you prime. Think about going wide almost immediately. You'll get a thinner coat. I put on the tape coat with a 4", many use 6", then use a 8" or 10" to spread/smooth out. Succeeding coats, I use a 8"-10" to put on and spread with a 12".


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## That Guy (Aug 19, 2017)

Live and learn.

You could hire it back out, but like others have stated check references.

Make sure they are properly insured, general liability as well as workers compensation insurance

their contract should state in detail the work to be completed, the number of coats and products used.

Should be on company letterhead not some blank form they bought at office depot and filled in their info

Just google their business name as well as the owners name.

And it wont be cheap, but having things done right, is never cheap


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## profdlp (Apr 9, 2017)

I was a building maintenance guy for fifteen years. My first two jobs were full-gut rehabs. (One with an asbestos abatement thrown in for good measure, which I had nothing to do with directly.)

We did a lot of drywall work. My boss started me out doing nothing but sanding. What fun days those were! (Not...) I kept asking to get a chance to hang rock and did pretty good at it. (A decent carpentry background made the measuring and cutting part familiar.) When it came time to let me try laying down some mud I was told I would definitely have to sand my own work. Remembering how much I enjoyed that (not) I was quite careful. My first efforts weren't great, but they were a million times better than that.

You are lucky to be rid of that stuff now, and not sometime down the road when it would have been an even bigger pain in the neck to redo it.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I certainly hope you haven't paid him anything yet. If not, I would tell him to take it all down and put it back the way it was. If he refuses, tell him he owes you about $400 to get someone else to do that work. You can with a very clear conscience pay him nothing at all, and even then you will be getting a bad deal because now you have to pay someone else to take it down.

I have seen a lot of bad drywall jobs in my day, but that is by far the most uneducated, unskilled drywall worker I have ever seen. Frankly I did not even know 3/8" drywall even existed. I cannot think of a single use for it. I know they make 1/4" drywall for certain applications where they have to curve the drywall. Check your local code as most likely you actually need 5/8", but 1/2" minimum for sure.

Technically it is possible to hang drywall, apply 3 coats of compound (that is how many it takes), and come back the next day and sand. However that takes setting compound, the ability to dry 3 coats of it overnight (warm temperatures, low humidity, and some fans probably). Also it would take a crew of 3 probably.

I don't even see where he used joint tape - did he? Also, silicone caulk has absolutely - absolutely - no place in a drywall installation. In 99% of cases neither does latex caulk, but you could occasionally make an argument for it. But not here.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

de-nagorg said:


> It's not a total loss



It's true, it's not a total loss - it's worse. Well technically a total loss would be if you paid him, and he did nothing. If the contractor has actually been paid, then this is worse than a total loss. But from the homeowner's perspective, assuming they do not pay him, they are still out because everything has to be ripped out and thrown away.

Again, not only should your conscience be clear at not paying the guy anything at all, you need to get angry with him and let him know he should be paying you. He needs to learn to get out of the way so he doesn't swindle anyone in the future, and make way for the hardworking guys who do good work and did not get your job.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

AJ_T said:


> I used the wrong format for the images at first - you probably checked in as I was fixing.
> 
> There is mesh tape in the joints. I thought for ceiling that the paper tape would have a nicer finish. But I have read both can be used.
> 
> It is for sure 3/8 " (would have been $30 more to go 5/8). Definitely not enough screws. And as I mentioned, the layout going parallel with the joists makes me think a tear down is the only option.



It's all irrelevant, 3/8" is too thin anyway.

Mesh tape should only be used with setting compound. The only exception is if you use FibaFuse. Otherwise, paper tape only with premixed drying compound.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

3onthetree said:


> Wow. Don't let a con man like that back in the house. Better check stuff wherever they had access to and see if something's missing. At least it's only $80 in drywall chalked up to experience, and a lot more labor for you.



Wait, you bought the materials? Well then you need to be taking him to small claims court to get the cost of materials back. Even if nothing comes of it, just telling him that will help teach him a lesson. Definitely I would insist on him paying you for the materials you have to throw away, and get angry if he refuses. At least that will let him know where you stand and what a disgrace of a job he did.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

SPS-1 said:


> Clearly, that was his first time mudding drywall, so cut him a little slack.



On the contrary, he should be yelled at for trying to make money trying something for the first time by himself in a customer's home. If this were his 4th job and by some miracle he got paid with no complaints before, then I would cut him some slack. If this were his first job, I would probably just take him to court. Actually I probably would either way. Seriously. This guy owes the homeowner money, and he need to learn a lesson to make way for the honest, hardworking guys out there.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

That Guy said:


> their contract should state in detail the work to be completed, the number of coats and products used.



Fortunately there are fairly well defined standards for this. You would specify a Level 4 finish.
https://www.thespruce.com/the-five-levels-of-drywall-finishing-4120152


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

AJ_T said:


> To be fair, it was not really a "rip" - more like a weak pull and almost the entire thing came down in one piece.



Post a picture of the screws he used.


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## Davejss (May 14, 2012)

Hire a plasterer, not a drywall guy. Drywall requires three coats with a day drying between coats and lots of sanding. Drywall only gets mud on the joints and screw holes. If your drywall and mud ceiling ever gets wet it will be destroyed.
Plaster is way faster and can be completed in one day with zero sanding. The entire surface is coated, not just the joints, and if it gets wet you might have to repaint. 
I've been remodeling houses for over 30 years and I won't let sheet rock and mud anywhere near my jobs.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Davejss said:


> Hire a plasterer, not a drywall guy. Drywall requires three coats with a day drying between coats and lots of sanding. Drywall only gets mud on the joints and screw holes. If your drywall and mud ceiling ever gets wet it will be destroyed.
> Plaster is way faster and can be completed in one day with zero sanding. The entire surface is coated, not just the joints, and if it gets wet you might have to repaint.
> I've been remodeling houses for over 30 years and I won't let sheet rock and mud anywhere near my jobs.



This makes little sense in today's environment.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

Davejss said:


> Hire a plasterer, not a drywall guy. Drywall requires three coats with a day drying between coats and lots of sanding. Drywall only gets mud on the joints and screw holes. If your drywall and mud ceiling ever gets wet it will be destroyed.
> Plaster is way faster and can be completed in one day with zero sanding. The entire surface is coated, not just the joints, and if it gets wet you might have to repaint.
> I've been remodeling houses for over 30 years and I won't let sheet rock and mud anywhere near my jobs.


Plaster maybe better in the long run.
PRO's
One day for one coat smooth troweled.
Under ideal conditions, painting can take place in as little as 24 hours.
Has a better bond due to it being applied on Imperial Brand Base.

CON's
Material cost are higher. 
Labor cost are higher.
Most areas don't have the plaster trade available to do the work.
The Gypsum base board ( Imperial Board ) is a special order it is not a stocked product. 
In most cases the Veneer finish is a special order.
The Mesh tape is a special tape the color is Blue.
Corner beads & casing beads are designed for use with a veneer system two different kinds 1/16" for one coat & 3/32" for two coat ( yes you can switch they but it will not meet manufactures Spec's. )

Based on the above it is very hard for the Plaster Trade to compete with the drywall trade in the residential market.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ClarenceBauer said:


> CON's
> Material cost are higher.
> Labor cost are higher.
> Most areas don't have the plaster trade available to do the work.
> ...



-it's difficult to hang anything on the wall
-it's difficult or impossible to find a stud
-it's difficult to work on, like in the sense of adding a new electrical box or similar
-drywall is easy to patch, virtually no one knows how to patch plaster, except for the expensive and hard to find pros who did it in the first place
-it isn't just more expensive, it's like 3 times more expensive


Just not an option really.


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## ClarenceBauer (Mar 4, 2005)

jeffnc said:


> -it's difficult to hang anything on the wall
> -it's difficult or impossible to find a stud
> -it's difficult to work on, like in the sense of adding a new electrical box or similar
> -drywall is easy to patch, virtually no one knows how to patch plaster, except for the expensive and hard to find pros who did it in the first place
> ...


The Veneer system Davejss is referencing has a Gypsum Board base it is drywall with a special paper facing.
# 1 & 2 you would do the same a drywall.
As for patching depending on which plaster finish that was used it could be easer.
As for finding the pro to do it again it depends on which product was used for the job some products are easer to apply than drywall mudding.
Cost is higher.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ClarenceBauer said:


> The Veneer system Davejss is referencing has a Gypsum Board base it is drywall with a special paper facing.



Ah, I wasn't paying close enough attention.


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## Oldmaster (Jan 14, 2020)

Always glue and screw the ceilings


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## AJ_T (Nov 30, 2018)

We had the job re-done. It looks really nice. Spent much more time investigating the contractors we chose. They arrived 5 minutes early each day - much better than arriving 3 hours late like the first guy. These guys knew exactly what they were doing, had the proper tools, kept things clean, paid attention to detail, and did a really nice paint job. Lessons learned.


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