# please help - outdoor light turns itself off



## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

The thing on top of the fixture is a photo cell.
Does the light come on at dark and go out at dawn?


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for the response.

I wonder if the photo cell is going bad? And by the way, it looks like the "reset" interval is actually pretty short -- like 10 mins later it was working again (but goes out after 10 seconds), not multiple hours or anything like that.

The light is not automatic going on when it gets dark and turning itself off when it's light...it's controlled by a switch indoors. Even if it was controlled by this switch and then supposed to use that photo cell to only turn on when it's dark, it doesn't seem to do that. As a matter of fact it's pitch dark outside right now and when I go over to turn on the light it will stay on 10 seconds and then go off again. Strange behavior. Do you think the photo cell has gone bad and is telling the light to turn itself off? I guess replacing the light fixture would potentially be a lot easier than having to deal with a bad wiring issue.


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

i belive the photo cell is the culprit hear. if they go bad they can act like this. if you want to control the light with just the switch in the house i would elimnate the photo cell all together, but if ya want to leave it to turn on at dark & off at day then i would change it. these things will leave a load on in the day for a few seconds & then go off. but if it is dark & not staying on then the photo cell is at fault.:thumbup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

it also could be wired wrong causing this trouble , black & white should hook to the photo cell from the switch, then the red wire should tie to one side of the light & the other side of the light pigtailed to the white wire.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for your response as well. I appreciate your guys' help.

I've lived in the house for a few years and I'm pretty sure the light was working fine previously and staying on. So I'm fairly certain it's not bad wiring as I haven't changed this wiring since it was working previously.

Given your response, I want to try to test by eliminating the photo cell from the equation. Is it pretty easy to remove the photo cell from this light fixture?


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

yeap! all you would have to do is remove the three wires from the photo cell the one that hooks to the red wire on the cell would go to the black or brass screw on the light socket , then leave the white wire tied to the silver screw or white wire & you should be good to go!keep us updated!:thumbup::yes:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

meant to say the wire from the light that was tied to the red on the photo cell would go back to the black coming form the switch, then it would be controlled only by the switch.:bangin:


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks again for the help. I uploaded two photos, a "before" and "after". The before shows how it was wired up when I got in there (the photo cell was indeed connected as we suspected). In the after photo I have removed all 3 wires coming from the photo cell and now I'm just trying to see how it should be wired properly from here. Let me know if you have any guidance on that... I want to be sure it's wired correctly, etc.  Thanks!


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

I got it working. I have confirmed that the photo cell was the problem as I can now switch on the light and get it to stay on. I don't wish to replace the photo cell and prefer to just use the switch from now on.

My only questions is, are you able to verify that I wired this up correctly looking at the attached photo? I just want to be sure I have this wired correctly and it's safe. I'm not sure if the fact that I have it working also means I've done it properly/safely so any help to make sure of that would be greatly appreciated


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

where do the wires go after they leave this box?looks like there are some extras that shouldn't be there. other wise looks like ya good to go.:thumbsup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

the wire i am talking about is the extra black one?:whistling2:


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for the response. I didn't understand about the extra black (coming in from the metal tube on top) one as well ??? Should I just disconnect it and leave it disconnected? I'm not sure which of the black wires is the "hot" wire or if they both are. What would be the safest? Does it hurt anything leaving the extra black one connected? I don't get why there are two black wires coming in from the top anyway. This is a 90 yr old house with some of the wiring updated, so needless to say I have inherited someone's else's work from who knows how long ago.

As you can see from my post #1, it looks like the tube below the wiring leads to the light switch which is in that brick wall on the other side in my kitchen. The tube above the wiring housing goes up and then around and down into my basement near where the power box is.

What do you think is the most prudent approach from here? Try to remove one of the black wires? If both black wires are "hot" should they both be left connected or should one be removed and left disconnected?

Is it also correct that the black wire from above is connected to the white wire from below?

Let me know what you think would be the safest/best to do in this situation.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

I also have this multimeter. Should I use the DCV setting on this device to try to see if one or both of the black wires is "hot"? I'm assuming I would be looking for 120V on each wire respectively?


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Also, sorry for one more post but forgetting for the minute that we have one extra black wire:

Is it correct that the BLACK wire from the pipe/tube coming into the light housing from above connects to the WHITE pipe/tube wire from below the housing?

I thought the black wires were the power source and the white wires were the return. Should black be connected to black, and white be connected to white? Or is it correct that they cross-over here?

Please pardon my electrical knowledge ignorance. Thanks


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## pokey (Nov 24, 2011)

looks like the white is feeding the switch and coming back on the extra black? If you turned breaker off that feeds the light does anything else go out? Is there a junction box in basement?


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes, there is a circuit box in the basement. When I had it wired incorrectly the first time when I turned on the light switch it tripped one of the breakers.

When I turn that breaker off, I don't notice anything else in the house that goes off. I believe this light is the only thing on this switch.


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

DO NOT USE THE DC setting this is AC!if the other end goes to the basement then it is most likely a switch loop.does the extra black go towards the switch or basement?if the basement i would say they were trying to get an extra hot leg for a possible failed one.set your meter to the closest to 120 volt AC, check from each black to white on the side with the 3 wires if ya get 120 on each to the white , then check to each black, if ya get 240 then 2 breakers are supplying this cap one off for safety.:thumbsup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

just thought of one thing,try to find out where that single black wire goes, it could be a supply wire for a light in the basement. then they picked up the neutral at the panel. not legal but feasible.keep us updated!:thumbup:


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

The extra black wire is from above, which I believe leads to the basement and the switch box.

I meant to say AC, not DC above. Tomorrow I will try using my multimeter on the AC setting and will check the voltages on both of these black wires. Actually I will check the voltages on all wires which might give us a better idea of what's going on.

I can't be sure but I think most of the wiring in the house should be legal. They are very strict in the particular city I live in -- one of the most strict around, maybe because a lot of the houses are old, I'm not sure. I agree though that even that still doesn't guarantee it's legal. I would like to have this wired correctly though so I will report back tomorrow after I can try what I stated above.

Thanks all for your replies.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

I uploaded a picture with all the wires numbered to make it easier to talk about.

Ok, so you want me to put one of my multimeter leads on #3. Then put the other lead first on #2 and check the voltage, then on #4 and check the voltage. I should see 0V AC on one and 120V AC on the other. If they both show 120V AC that means I am delivering 240V AC which is too much and one needs to be taken off and capped.

Also, just to be clear. Can you tell me from the picture I attached what wires I would want to pair together to do this correctly?

The more I think about it, I'm wondering if #4 should just be removed and capped... ??


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

yeap your dead on the money #4 may have no voltage at all ,if it doesn't go to anything else i would cap it off. & button her up. but if ya got 240 then ya gotta go looking!:thumbsup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

if #1 & #7 runs to a switch the way it is wired your good to go just need to know where #4 goes.:thumbup:i agree ,if nothing is on #4 then cap it off & button her up.:thumbsup:


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks!

I also found the attached pic which I think is the situation I am dealing with here and shows how to wire it up. So if #4 is bad or even live with 120 V AC then I think the best thing to do is to cap it either way, correct?

I will report back tomorrow night when I'm able to get back in and look at the AC voltages on those two black wires. Very curious to know why there are two in there......


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Since that black wire #4 seems to be all by itself, what white wire should I use when I test with the multimeter? I will have to touch one of the multimeter's leads to the #4 wire and then what white wire should I use for the other lead? #3? How can I tell which one goes with #4 if it's a live wire?


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

yeap , check it with #3.if there's voltage on it thenit's on another breaker. the only way to find it is catch it at the next junction it stops at.:thumbsup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

yeap , check it with #3.if there's voltage on it then it's on another breaker. the only way to find it is catch it at the next junction it stops at.:thumbsup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

circuitman said:


> yeap , check it with #3.if there's voltage on it thenit's on another breaker. the only way to find it is catch it at the next junction it stops at.:thumbsup:


that diagram would be correct.


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

circuitman said:


> that diagram would be correct.


#2 & #3 is defintely the feed from the panel.:thumbup:


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

could you reply in english?


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks circuitman.

Just to be clear, when I test AC voltage on black wires #2 and #4, I will touch one lead on the multimeter to one of these wires and then the other lead I will touch to the ground (since I'm not sure which white wire goes with each, as there are two black wires but only one white wire).


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

I was talking to a guy who told me he is an electrical engineer. He told me that having the two black wires hooked up will not hurt anything and that the voltages are NOT additive (ie. two 120 V AC wires hooked together as may be the case here will not be 240 V AC).


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

ferrugia said:


> I was talking to a guy who told me he is an electrical engineer. He told me that having the two black wires hooked up will not hurt anything and that the voltages are NOT additive (ie. two 120 V AC wires hooked together as may be the case here will not be 240 V AC).


That is not always a true statement.
2 black wires from opposite legs, will produce 240 volts.

It is never as clear cut as you are lead to believe.

I'm not saying this is the case at your house, but without tested to make sure, don't assume anything.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

jbfan said:


> That is not always a true statement.
> 2 black wires from opposite legs, will produce 240 volts.
> 
> It is never as clear cut as you are lead to believe.
> ...




Ok, thanks for correcting him then. In that case I agree. I want to get to the bottom of this and see if either of those two black wires is dead. If it is then things should be pretty easy. I should know here in a few hours when i get home and can hook up my multimeter to each of those wires on one lead, and the ground on the other lead.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

OK, the verdict is in:

Referring back to my picture with the wires numbered in my post #21...... wire #2 has 120 V and wire #4 is dead with 0 V.

This is interesting since wire #2 is coupled together in a plastic sheath with the ground and wire #3. So wire #4 is just a dead oddball coming out of nowhere. Very strange and I wonder what reason it is/was there for.

So anyway, I'm going to cap off wire #4 since it's "dead" with no voltage. And I'm going to leave everything else the way it is. This is the right way to do it, correct? Is there any reason to leave #4 hooked up (could it somehow be used as a return??) or are there any other tests I should do before I conclude my work is done and all is safe?

My primary concern is just wanting to be sure this is done right. If there's any other tests or due diligence I need to do to 100% reach that conclusion, please let me know. Thanks for everyone's help, I owe you guys a beer when I finish this!


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

the only thing i would say is to try to find where it leads. otherwise cap that rascal off!:thumbup:


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks again for all the replies and help.

How important is it to see where this "mystery wire" that's carrying 0 V goes? I obviously would like to see where it goes too but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do that. I'm sure the pros have some sort of tool or something they could put on the line and then try to find the other end in the fuse box or in the basement, but I don't think I'm going to be able to find it on my own without hiring a professional.

So the best thing to do is to cap off that dead wire. Do you think I should just leave it at that... or do I need to hire an electrician to figure out what that mystery wire is all about and where it goes to. I don't know why whoever wired that up previously did have that black wire connected, not capped off by itself.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

ferrugia said:


> Thanks again for all the replies and help.
> 
> How important is it to see where this "mystery wire" that's carrying 0 V goes? I obviously would like to see where it goes too but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do that. I'm sure the pros have some sort of tool or something they could put on the line and then try to find the other end in the fuse box or in the basement, but I don't think I'm going to be able to find it on my own without hiring a professional.
> 
> So the best thing to do is to cap off that dead wire. Do you think I should just leave it at that... or do I need to hire an electrician to figure out what that mystery wire is all about and where it goes to. I don't know why whoever wired that up previously did have that black wire connected, not capped off by itself.


Cap it off and leave it there.
Trace it out if you really want an answer to where it goes.


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## ferrugia (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks!

I don't mean to belabor this but will this still be 100% safe if I don't trace it out? I am willing to live with the unsolved mystery as long as it doesn't mean this is potentially wired incorrectly and a safety hazard.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

ferrugia said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I don't mean to belabor this but will this still be 100% safe if I don't trace it out? I am willing to live with the unsolved mystery as long as it doesn't mean this is potentially wired incorrectly and a safety hazard.


 
Nobody could 100% guarantee you anything. Its possible that something else will not be functioning since this wire is not being used. Can't you at oleast find the next junction point and look in there to see if this mystery wire terminates?


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## circuitman (Aug 9, 2013)

did ya find where that extra black wire went ?:whistling2:


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