# Removing walls



## stevec1 (Dec 27, 2011)

Good day all.

Thanking all in advance for any ideas.


We have just recently purchased a 33yr old bungalow and wish to make main level open concept thh removing all walls around kitchen/dining room/living room.

After speaking with an inspector, 2 handymen and a carpenter (and receiving different answers) I decided to remove the gyproc and see what was under the board.
I'm thinking the wall in kitchen is not load bearing as all 2x4, space between top of wall(with drywall above space) and nothing doubled up other than door frames. 
There is a big I-Beam running full length of basement and roof trusses are manufactured (support trusses) according to previous owner.

I'm hoping to not get a structural engineer and am including some pics for the pros to peek at.
Any ideas/recommendations much appreciated!


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## titanoman (Nov 27, 2011)

It looks like those trusses are designed to span the total distance so removing the wall is not an issue. I'm sure this is the general consensous among the inspector and the carpenters, is it not?

Sent from a Samsung Galaxy S2


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## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

The walls you tore down are not load bearing walls.


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## stevec1 (Dec 27, 2011)

Home Inspector was the first one to say remove any walls on main that we wish.

Thanks Much


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## stevec1 (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks Greatly.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

stevec1 said:


> Home Inspector was the first one to say remove any walls on main that we wish.
> 
> Thanks Much


That is like listening to the kid at Mickey D's telling you how to fix a gourmet meal, or going to Lowe's and having one of the kids stocking the shelves there tell you how to build a house.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Yup. Save a few pennies and definitely do not call in a structural engineer or an architect. Trust the box store apron people more than any others. 

Just out of curiosity. Why did you buy this place if your goal was to strip it of its inherent character?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

sdsester, I would have at least done it also. The worst thing is to cut the Kitchen off from everyone else, plus they are probably if you measured it, looking at a very small Kitchen space. When we get our upstairs built, I am taking out the wall between our living room and the front bedroom to open that up. I think that the OP place would look great once done, and would like to see pictures of it after they are done.


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## coupe (Nov 25, 2011)

looks like structural trusses, to me. though I may run a 2x6 or 2x8 strong backs down both sides to be safe.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

I've said it before and will say it again. Architects are not just for the rich. This project looks like some inspector or agency is going to want to see drawings before passing it. An architect called in now is going to save loads---maybe tons of money and aggravation on this project. Of course orange and blue apron folk at box stores have the same capability.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

coupe said:


> looks like structural trusses, to me. though I may run a 2x6 or 2x8 strong backs down both sides to be safe.


Come on Coupe. The structure looks fine but do you or I have a clue as to what, for example, it all sits on? You sure you want to add 2x6 or 2x8 timber on the edges if there are but foam cups for foundations support? I assume given the images of the trusses their is a real foundation. Haven't seen it though. I sort of hate these post where we only get to react to the immediate parts of a project without a look at the real bones of a house.


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## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

Looks to me like they are 2 point trusses.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

ok number one... big box store employoyees are normally useless when it comes to asking questions about removing structure... especially the young ones. secondly without them seeing what you doing they have no way of knowing what exactly is there.. this is why there are professionals such as myself.. i do this sort of thing on a regular basis and when i do we have a engineer come in and take a quick look at the start, then we remove the drywall and plaster to expose the framing and then the engineer comes back for a closer look only then can you say yes or no to removing walls without putting in beams.

now no more ranting.. based on what im seeing there it definitely looks like you have clear span trusses. it also clearly shows that the wall you want to take down was put up after the fact as the drywall is installed over top of it by the looks of things


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## abracaboom (Dec 27, 2011)

sdsester said:


> I've said it before and will say it again. Architects are not just for the rich. This project looks like some inspector or agency is going to want to see drawings before passing it. An architect called in now is going to save loads---maybe tons of money and aggravation on this project. Of course orange and blue apron folk at box stores have the same capability.


You don't need a permit or an inspection to remove partition walls like these. The OP is welcome to spend money on an architect, but the fact that those walls don't go all the way up against the trusses leave no doubt as to whether they bear any loads or not (not). Those partition walls were framed correctly: trusses *should not* have walls up to them to "help" with bearing their load. I think that if you did, the trusses would become indeterminate systems (or something like that) and you would not know any more which members of the truss are in tension and which are in compression.


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## stevec1 (Dec 27, 2011)

There was not much character in 3 decade old house and the wife wanted open concept.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Nice pictures, Steve! Vary rarely do we get pictures let alone good ones. 

Because you will be removing interior walls that are giving the house some shear resistance, I would add 2x4's at the truss chords, halfway up the two center ones and one at the mid-chord (4 runs). The gable end should get a 2x on the ceiling (bottom) chord to hold the gable wall below in-check against wind/seismic. This would bring your early '70-80's house (judging by the skip-sheathing- I've framed a couple of dozen or so of that same plan) up to minimal code for truss bracing: http://www.ufpi.com/product/rooftrusses/bracing.htm

http://www.xpsa.com/tech/FSC Bracing_Techniques_How to Guide_v1.2 FINAL.pdf

Use it or not: remove the wiring (label everything), studs and lower top plate. Cut the upper top plate into two foot sections, to save the toe-nails from truss above from splitting out the edge of the bottom chord there. Gently pry the sections down and cut the nails without disturbing the truss against nail-pops in drywall nearby. You may have some Simpson truss brackets or not, check carefully.....if so, you have to remove the teco nail in the truss side face first. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/STC-STCT-DTC_PT.asp

Gary


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## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

If the walls are non bearing then what shear value would they have? NONE
Why would you have to worry about toe nails on the truss? You should never toe nail trusses you should use STC (truss clips). 
If the wall has a top plate and a 1x on top of that then it is a non bearing wall without a doubt.
Around here you need to have a permit for anything unless you don't get caught.


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## chrisBC (Dec 28, 2010)

Yeah from what I can see looks like simple partitions, if you're not sure get another opinion from a licensed contractor.

Just to point out-I didn't see the OP anywhere mention asking "big box employees" their opinion.

I'd expect permits would be needed for everything.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

abracaboom said:


> You don't need a permit or an inspection to remove partition walls like these.


Excuse me but if there is electrical in them, and walls are supposed to have outlets every x feet in just about any building codes I have encountered. Moved/removed, you need permits and inspections where I live just for the electrical changes. Thankfully. I guess although I grumble at the inescapable cost at times. :thumbsup:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

"If the walls are non bearing then what shear value would they have? NONE
Why would you have to worry about toe nails on the truss? You should never toe nail trusses you should use STC (truss clips)."----- I see the end of a soon-to-be-removed wall on a possibly gable end wall- helping to prevent it from flexing in a wind. Bracing in the attic on the gable with 2x4 diagonals to the center from the outside walls over the top of the bottom chords would help strengthen that end wall against shear- to replace the drywall and frame wall removed below. A few 2x's is worth not having to repair nail pops in the existing ceiling drywall later, to me anyhow... 33 years ago, I was toe-nailing trusses to walls then because they never had truss clips here at that time.

Gary


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## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

Sorry, but I see a normal 2 point truss built in the 80's . If it was a picture of the gable then a cross brace should have been in the picture,. Stay tuned for more info.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

“Sorry, but I see a normal 2 point truss built in the 80's . If it was a picture of the gable then a cross brace should have been in the picture, “------------------- I agree, never said anything about 2-point truss. 

It is a picture of a gable; 

Pic. #1: taken from the attic access in the master bedroom closet ceiling toward the lv.rm./dine.rm. (at far end- with a gable vent) = no gable brace which is why I posted the gable bracing site.

Pic.#2: Liv.rm. over garage; front entrance of house, bedrooms/bath on right side past entry closet over stairs

Pic.#4: gable end on left side---trusses run front to back because of bedrooms

Pic.#6: gable end on right side- trusses still run front to back of house

I wasn’t saying the OP has to add truss bracing, but I recommend it because he will be removing the gable end wall below the attic. Wind/seismic would rely only on the ceiling drywall for shear flow at that level. The roof boards are weak for shear flow, plywood being much better, or boards at a 45* angle. That, plus lack of gable bracing anywhere, is why is suggest truss bracing. 
I would be concerned about the lack of ventilation in the attic picture. A little 8x18 gable vent at each end isn’t going to give much for that size attic. On the other hand- if it’s working now…..

Gary


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## havalife (Mar 23, 2011)

I missed the part in the pic #1 being taken the way you say, I will re-read the post and maybe catch that. To me it looks like the picture was taken from an attic access but I did not see that it was in the Mst. Bedroom., and I don't know where the Mst. Bed is in the layout.

I also did not see the picture of the gable end bracing, it looked a little dark at that end of the attic in the picture, but you can tell what size the gable vent is so my eyes are bad. I also can not tell what boards or nailing was used on the roof and what the manufacture along with the architect had designed for this house. 

I see no shear on the walls but it's a picture and who really knows. The wall has no shear on it and even if it was an old drywall shear wall it has no bracing for that and, the truss does not appear to be a 3 point truss with shear in the attic, so if the wall is not blocked to the truss and has no shear (plywood, metal, or drywall) then it is most likely not a shear wall.

To me the most important problem is he has no permit... Like I have said before I have to have a permit to do anything and this is a good example of why. I do not care who has more experiance in the field, if it's not done right it should not be done.


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Sorry to be a nasty pest on this post but call in architect or at least show us some pics of the foundation holding all this all up. :thumbup:


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