# Radon in the basement



## Rivethead

Do you have any crawl space or an open sump pump well? Are you planning to power caulk the slab at the wall. Is the floor cracked at all. All things to think about. We had a radon problem and took steps to correct it - never did eliminate it. The only way to know for sure is to make improvements and keep measuring until your comfortable with the level enough to sleep down there.


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## wsuswim147

4pc/l is the EPA recommended maximum level. Depending on how much higher you have over this limit may determine the appropriate mitigation strategies. You could go a far as having a collector trench with gravel/pvc pipe or a geovent material to collect the gas and exhaust it out of the house via a fan/vaccum pulled on the system


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## drlsubaru

wsuswim147 said:


> 4pc/l is the EPA recommended maximum level. Depending on how much higher you have over this limit may determine the appropriate mitigation strategies. You could go a far as having a collector trench with gravel/pvc pipe or a geovent material to collect the gas and exhaust it out of the house via a fan/vaccum pulled on the system


Yeah we've been exploring the vent installation option. I just hate to do it because the more I research it, the more I find the EPA guidelines to not have much substance behind them.

More or less, almost all info I find says something to the extent of: Radon gas is a proven carcinogen. However, it is unknown what dose is considered to be harmful. The EPA guidelines are very arbitrary and based off a study done of miners who dug uranium for 20 years. There still exists little to no definitive research of the effect of house-level radon exposure.

But hey, if I plan on ever re-selling this place I'd better fix the problem... so there's the easy answer. :yes:


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## Radonguy

What's your level and your basement square footage? 

Val


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## drlsubaru

Radonguy said:


> What's your level and your basement square footage?
> 
> Val


App 1000 sq ft, levels around 5.


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## Radonguy

With a level of 5pCi/L a long term test may show that your levels average below 4. To get a good look you need to run the test to about Jan 2010 since the highest levels usually will occur during the coldest months.

A level in the 5 range can often be minimized with ventilation techniques. If you have an HRV (air exchanger) these can be set produce a slightly higher positive pressure in the home which helps to keep the radon in the ground and cleans the air by the increased ventilation. These do cost more to install and to operate than a typical sub slab depressurization system. A radon mitigation system will get your levels often below 1pCi/L and have the added benefit of exhausting moisture and other soil gases.

I do provide DIY help if you choose to go that route.

Val


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## md2lgyk

With no disrespect meant to Radonguy, I worked for more than 30 years in the nuclear industry. In my opinion, home radon testing and mitigation is a moneymaking scam second only to asbestos abatement.


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## drlsubaru

md2lgyk said:


> With no disrespect meant to Radonguy, I worked for more than 30 years in the nuclear industry. In my opinion, home radon testing and mitigation is a moneymaking scam second only to asbestos abatement.


This thought hass been in the back of my mind for some time after doing extensive research on the actual science behind radon mitigation.

It seems the levels set by the EPA are somewhat arbitrary and there is no real legitimate research that can prove actual exposure limits of radon.

Nevertheless, we are turning the basement into a master bed and installing a radon fan will only help the resale price in the future. That's a good enough reason for me.


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## md2lgyk

drlsubaru said:


> Nevertheless, we are turning the basement into a master bed and installing a radon fan will only help the resale price in the future. That's a good enough reason for me.


That's all you need to say. After all, it's your house. As for me, I'm installing mitigation in the house I'm currently building only because the county says I have to.


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## Yoyizit

md2lgyk said:


> With no disrespect meant to Radonguy, I worked for more than 30 years in the nuclear industry. In my opinion, home radon testing and mitigation is a moneymaking scam second only to asbestos abatement.


I thought they had data that shows increased likelihood of disease from radon or asbestos. . .?
For sure, it can't be good for anyone. . .


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## Hobb3s

Yoyizit said:


> I thought they had data that shows increased likelihood of disease from radon or asbestos. . .?
> For sure, it can't be good for anyone. . .


It's all in the exposure levels and frequency, there are background levels of asbestos and radon everywhere in the air around us. Just like if you drink a glass of water it won't kill you, but if you drink 2 gallons of water you'll die. The gov't sets 'acceptable limits', then everyone has to meet those limits, which are usually occupational limits, meaning if you work with the stuff everyday. Of course having said that if you're sleeping in your basement, you should probably get a 'radon fan' or just better ventilation and seal your slab etc. (if you have high radon in your area)


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## Yoyizit

*couldn't find a good definition of excess death*

"Excess death is the difference between the number of deaths observed in [the radon exposed group] and the number of deaths that would have occurred in that group if it had the same death rate as the non-[radon exposed] population"


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## radongreg1

Radonguy said:


> With a level of 5pCi/L a long term test may show that your levels average below 4. To get a good look you need to run the test to about Jan 2010 since the highest levels usually will occur during the coldest months.
> 
> A level in the 5 range can often be minimized with ventilation techniques. If you have an HRV (air exchanger) these can be set produce a slightly higher positive pressure in the home which helps to keep the radon in the ground and cleans the air by the increased ventilation. These do cost more to install and to operate than a typical sub slab depressurization system. A radon mitigation system will get your levels often below 1pCi/L and have the added benefit of exhausting moisture and other soil gases.
> 
> I do provide DIY help if you choose to go that route.
> 
> Val


I tested radon in my house when I moved in after checking and validating my detector in the old house. It was about 3 in late summer. A couple years later I decided to plug in the detector in April. It was high about 9. I was concerned because it was almost that upstairs. It tricked down to 2.5 in summer. In late October it rose to 20. I installed a temporary suction pipe to the backyard. Went quickly down to below 4. Rose and reached a peak in December about 6-7. My radon levels may have been over 35 without suction. I had no idea. You must check levels in all seasons and weather conditions else a single measurement tells NOTHING of yearly levels. I didn't see any difference in my electric bill, but I turned it off for now, around 4 or so. In my case it was mostly suction, for there was little CFM comming out of the pipe. I will be installing a pipe up through the roof.
before winter. I would suggest getting a monitor as I did.
greg


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## radongreg1

Might add, a level of 16 is supposed to be like smoking a pack of cigs a day. If you smoke a pack a day, add 1=2 packs a day. The level in my house in December could have been over 30= at least 2 packs a day. I can only guess that it was about that the last two years before I RECHECKED my radon level.

greg


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## PunkyPoo

Part of me thinks it's all voodoo too. But we've got kids. So we had a system installed that vents it out of the sump pump hole out the side of the house, and up towards the rough. The hole thing cost about $400. And we made the seller pay for it when we bought the house.


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## Yoyizit

PunkyPoo said:


> Part of me thinks it's all voodoo too. But we've got kids.


Madame Curie could tell you it isn't voodoo if only she were alive.
And cell damage on a molecular level can take 20 years to show up.


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## freetown

*Radon,radon,radon*

Is radon in a home as serious as it appears? I think not!! If it was serious why did our Government leaders cancel funding back in 1997? I think they just stirred up fear because some big company lobbist got what they wanted, to instill fear and get more business.



drlsubaru said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just had the inspector out. Apparently we have pretty high levels of radon in the basement (no shocker there), but we are going to be transforming the basement into a master bed suite so we want to do something to mitigate the potential problems.
> 
> Our realtor told us that installing a "radon fan" will cure the problem as it will siphon the radioactive particles out of the air every few hours. Are these a good enough fix for an area that will be slept in on a regular basis?
> 
> Any other suggestions as to how to mitigate it? I was pushing my better half for lead-reinforced floors but you know wives.


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## Yoyizit

I inherited a bunch of magazines, one of which said that 20,000/yr [out of 330M people in the US] die from radon related lung cancer. Haven't tried to verify this.

40,000/yr die on the highways
5,000/yr from food poisoning
60,000/yr from guns
90,000/yr from hospitals
1000/day from smoking
55/yr from lightning
1 injury in 50 yrs from a meterorite
1300/yr from elec.


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## CrossWorks

My friend has a Radon set-up in his house and recently the fan just gave out. Although the fan itself cost about $120, I to am a skeptic with this Radon thing. 

He and I agree with Freetown in that this whole thing was conjured up and lobbyist won the day in Washington and then we have a Radon scare.

After considering the fact that his house sits on an area comprised only of sand and how deep that is I don't know, but the sand pit just a couple couple blocks away goes down about 30 feet, I suspect it's the same under my friends house.

So with the pipe already in place, he's inclined to just put in a coupling in place of the fan and call it good. He's got a finished basement, the kids are out of the house and he and his wife are not smokers. Right now his concern is keeping the work coming in order to keep his home and not some radon scam. No one needs to be reminded of the current status of the construction industry.

We both think this whole Radon thing is a scam, and this article sheds a bit of light on that.

If his house was in an area that was conducive to high levels, yes he would probably buy the fan to keep the misses happy, but on sand! Probably not.


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## Radonguy

Go ahead and try converting to a passive system as they can reduce levels by about 50%. But please do a follow up test. Assumptions can't be made on the neighbors levels, it be that fickle.

Val


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## CrossWorks

Radonguy said:


> Go ahead and try converting to a passive system as they can reduce levels by about 50%. But please do a follow up test. Assumptions can't be made on the neighbors levels, it be that fickle.
> 
> Val


But let me ask you...? Considering that every house in the neighborhood sits on sand, what are the chances of Radon?


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## Radonguy

It doesn't matter, the radon could be coming from the sand or from sources below the sand. Every state has some issses with radon, the only sure way to find out is to test. DIY testing will only run about $20.


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## kwerk

I don't mean to get too far off track but I have read studies that suggest low level radiation is actually GOOD for you . From what I understand it stresses your cells kind of like weight lifting stresses your muscles.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2664640/



> By far, the greatest exposure to low level radiation is the inhalation of the radon gas present in the air (Figure 5). Radon is produced by uranium radioactivity in the natural environment. A scientific test of the LNT model, as normally used, clearly disproved the LNT hypothesis (Figure 7). Lung cancer mortality is _lower_ in US counties where the radon concentration in homes is _higher_ (Cohen 1995). In the few counties with exceptionally low radon radiation, lung cancer mortality is higher, as shown schematically in Figure 9. Instead of discarding or modifying the LNT assumption, the defenders of this linear calculation procedure raised generic objections (an ecological study) that were not really applicable to the test. There were no defensible objections to the test or its conclusions; yet the authorities continue to accept the unscientific ICRP recommendations.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7814250



> Data on lung cancer mortality rates vs. average radon concentration in homes for 1,601 U.S. counties are used to test the linear-no threshold theory. The widely recognized problems with ecological studies, as applied to this work, are addressed extensively. *With or without corrections for variations in smoking prevalence, there is a strong tendency for lung cancer rates to decrease with increasing radon exposure, in sharp contrast to the increase expected from the theory*. The discrepancy in slope is about 20 standard deviations. It is shown that uncertainties in lung cancer rates, radon exposures, and smoking prevalence are not important and that confounding by 54 socioeconomic factors, by geography, and by altitude and climate can explain only a small fraction of the discrepancy. Effects of known radon-smoking prevalence correlations--rural people have higher radon levels and smoke less than urban people, and smokers are exposed to less radon than non-smokers--are calculated and found to be trivial. In spite of extensive efforts, no potential explanation for the discrepancy other than failure of the linear-no threshold theory for carcinogenesis from inhaled radon decay products could be found.


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## Yoyizit

kwerk said:


> I don't mean to get too far off track but I have read studies that suggest low level radiation is actually GOOD for you . From what I understand it stresses your cells kind of like weight lifting stresses your muscles.


And so does no radon exposure do you harm?

Do they mean 1/20th of a standard deviation?


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## kwerk

Yoyizit said:


> And so does no radon exposure do you harm?


Lack of radon doesn't harm you, but the research suggests LOW doses have a beneficial hormetic effect by stressing your cells so they are better able to repair DNA damage from cigarette smoke for example.

A glass of wine every day does you good, but a bottle a day will mess you up. Same sort of principle.

It's just a hypothesis so I would still mitigate the radon if I was going to spend significant lengths of time down there each day.

Here's an article specifically about radon exposure:

http://www.physorg.com/news125672761.html


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## Jim F

I will weigh in on this as a medical radiographer. Any level of exposure to ionizing radiation should be limited/reduced wherever possible. True we are all exposed to background levels on a daily basis that cannot be avouded. Examples we refer to is that a chest x-rayis equal to 2 months exposure to background radiation. An abdominal CT scan equalls 2-3 years background. I for one would not want to be sleeping in an are that had higher than acceptable levels of radon. These affects are cumulative over ones lifetime. Where this is a consideration is in a home with children. They are being exposed at a younger age and are more vulnerable over their lifetimes than say, elderly persons. The younger you are, the longer your exposure, the greater your risk.


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## Yoyizit

Jim F said:


> I will weigh in on this as a medical radiographer. Any level of exposure to ionizing radiation should be limited/reduced wherever possible. True we are all exposed to background levels on a daily basis that cannot be avouded. Examples we refer to is that a chest x-rayis equal to 2 months exposure to background radiation. An abdominal CT scan equalls 2-3 years background. I for one would not want to be sleeping in an are that had higher than acceptable levels of radon. These affects are cumulative over ones lifetime. Where this is a consideration is in a home with children. They are being exposed at a younger age and are more vulnerable over their lifetimes than say, elderly persons. The younger you are, the longer your exposure, the greater your risk.


That's what I thought, but this is out of my field. 
How do you account for these posted research results?


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## Jim F

Yoyizit said:


> That's what I thought, but this is out of my field.
> How do you account for these posted research results?


Simply stated, I disagree with the posts that dismiss high radon levels as hype. You will always find research with contradictory claims. All research is subject to some degree of bias and error. That's Statistics 101. Just because there are studies that suggest that low levels of radon exposure can boost your immune system, does not mean that one should seek out low levels of radon exposure. 

On topic, one should not knowingly sleep in a basement and be exposed to 5mCi when gov't regs state that action should be taken at levels of 4mCi and above. It should be relatively simple and inexpenseve to mitigate and bring this to a safe level. 

Radon was never an issue when fuel was cheap and folks slept with their bedroom windows open. Nowadays we have our houses all buttoned up resulting in gasses being trapped at unsafe levels. On the same note, smoking was not an issue when the average life expectancy was somewhere in the 40's or 50's.


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## VelvetFoot

http://www.euradon.de/euradon-eng/index.php?page=10


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## Yoyizit

VelvetFoot said:


> http://www.euradon.de/euradon-eng/index.php?page=10


The woman in the photo used to be a man :laughing:

Generally, photos of smiling, scantily clad women = less credibility, depending on what is being sold.


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## VelvetFoot

I'm pretty sure these radon spas aren't overrun by nubile beauties.


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## Yoyizit

VelvetFoot said:


> I'm pretty sure these radon spas aren't overrun by nubile beauties.


As soon as that ash cloud leaves I think we should research it! :thumbsup:


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## chaos

I have a small radon problem too. 

Tests past 2 years
2008: 3.5
2009: 4.6 1st floor 6.0 Basement

Going to do it just in case...piece of mind. If I have to sell, I will HAVE to do it so....

Both neighbors on the side of my house have them. Spoke to CEO of the company that did it, he came out to my house. Great guy, he even told me that my levels are very low and basically said "if you 10 people lived in your basement for 70 years there is a 70% chance that 1 person MIGHT get lung cancer.

He said if it was few hundred like he sees all the time, he would strongly recommend. Quoted me $1100.

I'm going to do it for piece of mind. I will not pay $1100 for that piece of mind though. It's about $200-400 to do it yourself (for a basic set up). If you have a big problem you might need a better fan.

I've been researching Radon Mitigation systems and it's a pretty straight forward procedure. First you have to make sure you can even DIY, some states HAVE to have a certified tech install it.

In CT I'm clear.

Biggest part of the job is really just drilling through the slab + House. Rest is piece of cake.

I'm about to do this job in few weeks so I can do a little write up.

Here is what I gathered so far.For those that have experience please confirm below.

PS Found a lot of videos on you tube....

- Check if you need Cert Tech to do the job in your state! 

- Get a quote/plan lay out when you call your local radon specialist.

- Drill 3" or 4" diameter hole in your slab about a 12" away from foundation wall. Need Hammer Drill with Diamond Drill bit. Home depot rents both if you don't have connects. Might also need jack hammer.
NOTE: If you get a nice even hole (preferable) you will only need some polyurethane caulk. If it's not even you will need to seal it and hydraulic cement. Point is, get it as close to size you are going to use.

- After you drill a hole, check what you have under, gravel/sand/mud etc it ALL makes a difference on the Fan you will need to buy. 

- purchase fan http://www.radonaway.com/
Recommended by the company CEO. They gave me a number to their retailer that told me to call back once I know what's under my house.

You also have other choices Fantech makes these...do your research. 

- Mount Fan run PVC piping up above your roofline using mounts (outside/inside). Will need external electrical outlet!
- Drill 3" or 4" hole on side of house
- Dig a 20" diameter pit after drilling hole in your foundation 
- Mount PVC pipe on the bottom line of the foundation
- Caulk the pipe with foundation (use polyurethane)
- Install a pressure meter
- Drill 1-2 holes in other places around your basement and test with smoke pen when the fan is on. Seal with caulk.

Off to drill the hole.....


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## VelvetFoot

Pipe and fan on exterior is ugly in my opinion.


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## chaos

VelvetFoot said:


> Pipe and fan on exterior is ugly in my opinion.


So is vinyl siding, but I have that too....


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