# Thoughts on kitchen layout??



## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Below is a shot of what will be the new kitchen. Right now we are down to nekked walls and floors. The yellow x represents where the sink is and the blue x represents a missing cabinet that I forgot to put in. 

The room is open to the dining room and the half wall is open to the living room. Right now its a cave with separating walls so we have opened it up a bit. The door leads to the garage and laundry.

Am I looking okay for the triangle and working surfaces....any suggestions?? 

Critique away.

Thanks RJ


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

lets try this again


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## Jim McClain (Dec 2, 2006)

You'll be doing a lot of walking in that kitchen. Especially from frig to sink, which I think it the most frequently used path in a home. And you will have to detour around the island cabinet to do it. I like the amount of counter space, but the triangle doesn't appear to be all that efficient, if it is even a triangle. Can you provide a floor plan layout with dimensions?

Just my









Jim


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

I can see the picture in Firefox but not Internet Explorer.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

Maybe because the file extension is jpg but Firefox detected it to be a png image. If you change the extension to png I bet I'll see it on IE.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up on the file extension I did not realize that the program was a different name, 

Trying again


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

As requested here is the floor plan. 

I understand the walkabout with the fridge and the sink. My only other option is to put the fridge by the sink and I don't think I have the room.


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## Jim McClain (Dec 2, 2006)

forcedreno2012 said:


> As requested here is the floor plan.
> 
> I understand the walkabout with the fridge and the sink. My only other option is to put the fridge by the sink and I don't think I have the room.


You prob'ly don't have to move the appliance layout. You'd have a decent triangle, if it wasn't for the detour around the end of the island. It looks like you have enough room for my edited version. I spun the island 90°, which eliminates the detour and gets the number of steps from countertops to island reduced on 2 sides. Extending the front overhang gives you an area for island-side eating and socializing.

Just an idea. 

Jim


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Jim McClain said:


> You prob'ly don't have to move the appliance layout. You'd have a decent triangle, if it wasn't for the detour around the end of the island. It looks like you have enough room for my edited version. I spun the island 90°, which eliminates the detour and gets the number of steps from countertops to island reduced on 2 sides. Extending the front overhang gives you an area for island-side eating and socializing.
> 
> Just an idea.
> 
> Jim


Thanks all for the input so far. Some good points. 

Thanks Jim, never thought about turning the island I will look at that option. The right side of the kitchen has a door from the outside in that we use a lot to let the herd of dogs out so I don't want it to jut out into that walkway too much. I am going to custom make the island to incorporate some things that the chef of the house wants so I have leeway on the size. 

One tip that I was given was being as we have necked floors and walls was to tape out the cabinets and then get a folding table/box or tape off the area that will be the future island to make sure that its not too big or too small so we can flip the design and see if we like it. 

We are a few months away from getting the kitchen done so have leeway on time to look at the options.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Is the wall where you have the door on the right -- the backyard?
The window over the sink, is that another outside wall?

Could you do a floor plan layout of the other rooms adjacent to the kitchen?
You have a great big space to work with.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Do I have a plan he asks....... about 9000 of em lol 

Here is what we are working with.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

actually, it's she asks...the other knot is too busy working
on our projects to post on forums...:yes:
Questions...
How do you get to the laundry room, through the garage?
Is the wall where the sink is -- the backyard?
Is the dining room casual? (as it looks like it's going to be in full
view of the kitchen?) 
How big do you plan on making the Island?
What type of cabinets do you want?
What type countertops.?
What type flooring?
...and, what are you doing up so early?

They'll be more questions later...:yes:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Just my two cents would be to put the ref by the back door and put the dishwasher on the right of the sink. This would be less steps and keep the sound of the ref away from the living space that is behind the ref now also.

I know, water in an outside wall but it is warm enough down there not to worry about it. JMHO


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree with JM's idea of rotating the island......bigjim brings up a good suggestion as well.....

What is hurting you is the door to the garage....that spot is killing you....

Another idea....how about moving the island over to the wall (take your pick on which side) and make it an L shaped. It means you could increase the length a little and increase the width of the pathway.

Another option...move the stove to the island.....then put the fridge where the stove was.....


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

There doesn't seem to be a way into the laundry room from the kitchen.

My first suggestion is to close up the current door to the garage and
put the door on the opposite side into the laundry room. From the laundry 
room put a door into the garage. This also gives access (from the kitchen)
to the powder room in back of the laundry room.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

My apologies Two Knots....that's what I get for assuming and I get cranky when it happens to me lol. 

With respect to the suggestions so far. Below is gives an idea of the traffic flow. I looked at moving the door but I don't there there is room based on where the water heater is. It would be a really tight fit as the WH is off the wall. We usually use the garage to enter the house and drag the groceries etc. The wall with the sink faces the fenced in back yard where our 4 dogs rule the world. 

The red represents the main traffic flow. 
The blue shows entrance from the garage to the laundry area. 
The purple shows where I think you are suggesting the new door.
The laundry is not heated and cooled. The laundry is also on the same level as the garage which is 5 inches step down. 

To the person that suggested making the island a peninsular of sorts. Originally there was a U shaped kitchen with an over hang and upper cabinets. I ripped the uppers out when we moved in and it opened it up some but with leaving the lowers in it still looked small, That's why I was going with the island. 

Two Knots. The cabinets are to be white with a bead board insert and we are looking at a dark plank wood looking tile. 

I have thought about moving the stove to the island but then I would have to have a column to get gas/power to the island. I don't know what they put in the concrete when they poured the house but there is no way we are chipping it up. We can't even get a heavy duty ramset to puncture it so to dig a channel for power / gas would be very time consuming and probably cost a bunch. 

I do like the idea of flipping the island and actually found some shaped ones that look good. 

Have spent the day painting outside so whooped - but tomorrow I will get measurements on where the water heater is to see if we can move the door. 

I will also see if we can fit the fridge next to the sink. My only issue with that is are you not required to have landing space on either side of the sink and fridge? if that's the case then the fridge would be the end of the run and I would like some type of cabinet at the end not just the fridge hanging out there. 

Hope this all makes sense and again thanks for the suggestions .


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

You're layout reminds me of our daughters kitchen.
Only difference is
where your dinning room is that is her kitchen eating area. 
Where your sink is, they have a micro and wall oven, and where
your fridge is is where they have their sink. Their stove is in the same
place as yours. 
Where I suggested to move your door to the laundry room over to the
left...that would open up the right side for some great countertop
space for food prep near the stove. 
She also has a peninsula and an
island. Even if you don't do a peninsula, they did a great arch separating 
the kitchen from the eating area.
I'm not good at computer designing, I do all my stuff with graft paper.

I'll get you a couple of pics of her kitchen, I know it will inspire you, as well
as give you some ideas. Just keep in mind, that they are serious cooks.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

The ceilings are 9 foot and the cabs go all the way up.








This is the wall oposite of the sink. this where her side door is, you enter through the mud room,
which has the laundry room and powder room...


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

The ceilings are 9 foot and the cabs go all the way up.









oposite the sink...on the right...wall oven, micro, warming oven an fridge on the left


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

TK's... Holy cow I want her kitchen!! That is stunning and those arches are the bomb. 

I am going to print off the pics and spend some time in the kitchen/laundry tomorrow. I will get some exact measurements and come back here with some interior photos tomorrow to see if we can make some of this stuff work. 

Thank you so very much for sharing.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

your welcome, a arch will give you some defination between the kitchen
and dining room. I add more pics.



looking down the into the mud room from the end of the fridge.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

She has a wide opening into the mud room, however, if you do manage to get a small doorway into the laundry room, She has the perfect door for it.
I'll get it next after this pic.



This is behind the stove, the powder room door on the left and the laundry room door on
the right. Note how cute the laundry room door is.
She ripped out her oak floor and they installed this wide plank rough (its sorta ribbed) oak.
It's great for the dog, his nails don't scratch it.



This is the eating area...and this is why I thought her layout is like yours. The french doors on the 
right lead into the LR...in your house it is the door to the outside, right?
Note...the kitchen was still under construction in this pic...the family room
to the left was temporally housing the old kitchen Island.


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## kimberland30 (Jan 22, 2008)

Jim McClain said:


> You prob'ly don't have to move the appliance layout. You'd have a decent triangle, if it wasn't for the detour around the end of the island. It looks like you have enough room for my edited version. I spun the island 90°, which eliminates the detour and gets the number of steps from countertops to island reduced on 2 sides. Extending the front overhang gives you an area for island-side eating and socializing.
> 
> Just an idea.
> 
> Jim


The left side of your house is shaped almost exactly like ours. We are planning a kitchen redo and our plan is to design our kitchen almost exactly as you have done (door placement is the same as well). Our fridge is where your oven is and vice versa. I like Jim's idea to rotate the kichen island. Ours is currently where you have planned and it is a pain to walk around to get to the fridge/stove/sink, especially when both of us are working on dinner. We are actually going to place it where Jim suggested to keep the triangle free and clear. I think this is the easiest option without having to reroute utilities and doors, and will give you the flow you want.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

*Ugly photo alert!! Yes its that bad.*

Below is a pic with what we are dealing with...lets face it ANYTHING would be an improvement. This is after we ripped out the walls and insulation etc. 
I have half of bookcases that didn't flood as my "base cabinets" and wouldn't you know it a flooded CPU tower is the perfect height for holding up the sink, along with my designer yellow saw horses that is. :laughing:

I put a red x where we looked at putting the door and based on what we would need to do I just can't see it happening. There is a gas line, water lines a cast iron vent stack and electrical that we would have to move. Its also load bearing. 

I am looking at moving the fridge to where the green x as suggested by Jim. But is there a requirement to put space on either side of the sink? 

I don't want the end/start of the run to be the fridge I would like some type of cabinet there and would I have a small space on the left hand side of the sink. 

I can't believe I am even posting this photo lol........sooo embarrassing but we have been cooking on a camp stove outside since September so its time to get it done.

Robyn


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Well, it doesn't look too bad...I've seen worse...Think about a narrow
peninsular and a smaller Island...What about a bigger window (wider)
over the sink? How about a pic of the fridge wall...


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Now that I see the real photo of your kitchen, I like the door on the right
side. I also like the the idea of a peninsula separating the dining room 
from the kitchen. Before, you said you had top cabs that you removed, right?

The peninsula and the cabs underneath doesn't have to be the standard
debt as the rest of the bottom cabs. It can be narrower, thus leaving more
floor space in the middle of your kitchen for your Island. 

Now, if you want lets say an 18" counter on the peninsula, you could do
a 9" deep set of cabs underneath. (this way there 
would be space on the dining room side for a couple of
stools if you want them...if you dont want stools, then the bottom
cabs can be bigger, lets say 15" to 16" deep) If you are purchasing
standard cabs, a regular standard cab can be cut down. ( we did that
in our first new kitchen -- it was much cheaper than having the cabs
custom made to size)

in our second new kitchen...We made our own kitchen cabs, and
in our breakfast area have several cabs that are 7" to 9" deep, and you
would be surprised how much stuff can fit in shallow cabs. If you did a
a narrower peninsula how many feet would there be for an island in the
middle? can you sketch that up?


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## kimberland30 (Jan 22, 2008)

For what it's worth, if you go with your fridge where you've marked the green X, I wouldn't put a cabinet/counter to the left of it. You could always build an insert for the fridge so that you have a 'wall' there. If you put in a cabinet/counter, you'll have such a small area to work with there, and you'll lose space between the fridge and sink. Better to have one long run of counters rather than two smaller units that are separated.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

TK - Here is the back wall . Sorry it took so long, have been working outside for a few days. 

Here is the back wall of the kitchen. The old pantry in blue is very deep so we are ripping that out and hopefully going with pantry cabinets. 

The red x doorway is going to be filled in (this is originally where we were placing the fridge

The yellow section is going to be opened up with a half wall 

Sorry is messy have stuff stuck everywhere while we are rebuilding the back of the house. 

Robyn


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Robyn, check out these kitchen bar ideas for your fridge
wall. Check out The kitchens as well -- on Houz.

http://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen/coffee-bar


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## timkitchen (Apr 12, 2013)

It's a well designed layout of kitchen without any mistake. But you may increase more to your design. As I am looking, you should require sufficient fire and smoke extension in this layout. Also you have to efficiently use kitchen walls to keep kitchen things which increase kitchen space and help you to arrange kitchen things. Hope you may like this.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Okay blowing the dust off of this one.....literally lol - Sheetrock dust gets EVERYWHERE...Bout done with the drywall etc in the back and ready to do the switcheroo and move back into the bedroom. 

Anyhoo, below is a updated rough plan. The plan is not 100% to scale, I broke my mouse but it gives a fair idea of where we are headed. 

I have been able to convince (read wear down :laughing the other half to move the fridge over to the window side and near the sink. This will make the triangle better and the island will not be such a barrier island. 

I cannot flip the island as previously suggested as we would really restrict the aisles or have to make the island really small. I am getting quotes on getting power to the island. Have not made up my mind on that one yet.

I am planning on having a small thin shelf unit facing the dining room as the end cap of the fridge. That way It won't be a huge honking wall at the end of the run. I think we will end up with 2 feet of landing to the right of the fridge so I think that will be sufficient.

Some definite decisions this far based on the chef of the house. 

White plain inset shaker style painted cabinets on perimeter.
Uppers will be glass on the window wall
Island will be darker colour with beadboard surround.
By moving the fridge we wont be able to extend the window but I can live with that. 
Floor will be a darker tile and then border and then different lighter tile throughout the rest of the house. 
Storage pantry will be for big pots and small appliances etc and dog food. 
Food pantry will be for people food.

Two Knots..if you are out there, can you tell me what the rough dimensions of the archway is at your daughters house into the dining room and how far in the edges of it are? We are blowing out half the wall on the living room side to open it up and will be dressing that up some. Trying to see if I can incorporate something similar on the dining area side an I really liked what they did. 

Thanks 

Robyn


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

I haven't been in on any of the previous designs, but have you considered a peninsula instead of the island? It would have much better traffic flow and aisle clearance. Move the fridge across the aisle and turn the island to a peninsula by connecting it with the sink side.

Inset cabinet is a premium choice that's usually at least 20% above full overlay. Paint is also a premium choice. And despite the current popularity of white kitchens (I did one in my showroom after all) it's kinda difficult to integrate the popular all white look into the rest of the home. The kitchen shouldn't look like it's in a completely different house! You need to be sure that you use white significantly as a color in the rest of the home to tie it all together.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Robyn, I don't know how big the opening is between the cooking area
and the breakfast room...I guess the opening itself is 12 feet.

I love your layout...It very much resembles our daughters layout.
She has 9 foot ceilings and all the cabs go all the way up.

Your stove is on the same wall as hers, she has gas stove and an
electric wall oven warming oven and micro on the left of 


The island top is American cherry...They have all dark cherry furniture in the house.
You can see a peek into the breakfast room -- the stools and 
furniture is cherry.
The family room (the big opening on the left) is cherry color as well. The living room
(the opening on the right with the French doors) is the LR
...both the
furniture in the LR and DR is dark cherry furniture... As I remember your DR is 

The cabs on eitherb side of the stove are great, as it makes the spices easy to find.




This is the stove, above the hood are more cabs that go up to ]

The white swinging door to the right of the wall oven is the entrance
to the DR from 

The fridge is to the left of the French door that leads to the foyer.
The door with the bulletin board is the basement door.

As you can see the kitchen is "the heart of the home" in this house.
The kitchen has entry ways into the LR, DR, Foyer, Family Room,
Mud Room, Basement etc...
The new cherry doors in the entry way have since been stained dark
in keeping with the cherry furniture in both the LR and DR.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok, just found this one, I'd say the breakfast room is 12 feet


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Robyn, in the family room is the old Island, against the wall
(waiting to be picked up by good-will) 
It was smaller than her current one and had wheels
that locked. Although, I think your kitchen is big enough to handle
a stationary Island -- it is an option to consider.

My son-in-law is a weekend gourmet cook :yes: My daughter says, she just stays out of his way 
and lets him cook up a storm.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

I just want to mention, although the cabs look very white in the photos,
they are actually a creamy white. The fridge has two freezer drawers.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Live Oak, 

I understand the comments re the peninsular but the way our house runs that would be more of a barrier than the island. There was a short peninsular and an island in the original kitchen and the peninsular was a barrier to me. With this plan I can enter either by the garage door or the fridge door and immediately be able access where I need to be. 

If you look further up the post you will see the house floor plan and what we have now (designer it aint). We pretty much have a blank slate on the whole house. We access the house from the door by where the fridge will be a lot and I want to keep that area open if at all possible. I also understand about too much white. We are breaking that up with the darker colored island and using glass doors for some uppers. We also have (or will have) lots of white throughout the house. 

No issues with the choices and upgrades per as we are building our own so not that much of a difference.


TK 

Thanks so much for posting the pictures again. I have saved them this time :laughing: I REALLY like what they have done and hope to incorporate some of that with this build. 

Apart from some antiques the only stuff that survived was the dining room furniture and I saved for years for that so yup I am a keepin it. It is a warm brown but not too dark so should be okay. I am hoping to match the island to the finish on this set. I do have to rebuild the table top as this was sitting on its side when the water hit as we had just moved in...(welcome to Mississippi) we hadn't even unpacked yet. I am thankful everyday that all the tools just happened to be up high which is why we have been able to do so much with what we have. 

I moved one of the tables that we have as a temp kitchen into where the island will be (to make room for a chop saw ....every kitchen MUST have one of these - Rigid orange is oh so "IN" right now :no:. 

We have had it there for a while now and have not had any issues with the flow, although our temp fridge is in the garage so can't speak to that being by the sink but it will definitely be a shorter trek to go get the milk. 

Will post some elevations that I put together last night for some input.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Okay 4 elevations so will post them one at a time. I have used excel for many a thing but have to say this is a first for me with cabinet elevations. 

We do not have any corner cabinets in any of these right now as I am not sure what we are going to do with the corners. May even end up just closing them off. These are not to scale exactly but if you count 1 square to 5 inches it will be a rough estimate. 

Garage wall Elevation. This will be his cooking zone. Has a boatload of spices and oils etc so need lots of storage for that. The tall cabinet A will store his really LARGE trays that will not fit under regular cabinet drawer combo.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Sink Wall. 

We will be using the temporary appliances for a little bit but I have planned all of these elevations for the ones I really want. Have the specs on those so will have plenty of room as necessary. 

This area is for day to day dishes and glasses and clean up. I need the dishwasher on the left as I am the chief bottle washer and if I have it on the right it will be close to him cooking at the stove so do not want the trip hazard if the door is open.

Scale is a little out on this one due to moving stuff but again roughly 5 inches to a square. There is plenty of room for the dishwasher although on the plan it looks like there is not.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Okay so excel does not like pantries lol. The two pantries will be roughly 4 feet wide. These will not be cabinets but will have the doors to match the cabinets. 

The storage one is for all the small appliances and large pots and pans....and we have some LARGE pots and pans that will not go into drawers. Also have some heavy casserole dishes. This is also where the dog food will be stored. 

The food one is exactly that. 

The wine fridge was on top of the old fridge by accident and thus made it. I scored a wine rack at a surplus store for free (actually I paid a buck for it lol) and will be refinishing that. We have not made the decision on where the wall will be opened up above this area yet so if necessary I can add uppers or open shelves.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Aaaaannnndddd finally the island. 

Sink Side - This is where the prep will be. I am trying to put the taters and onions in those sliding baskets. if I cant build them I will just have cubbies and baskets in them. This is also where the daily eating utensils will be. 

The dining room end will be for cookbooks. 

The living room side is pretty free right now but wanted to have some closed cabinets. This side will be roughly 16 in depth so good for pretty much anything

forgot to mention uppers will probably be 36" not quite to the ceiling but not short either. 

Any major no nos with any of these?

Thanks 


Robyn


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

I had some down time this morning, so I sketched it up. The bonus about the peninsula is that whomever is cooking has a protected cockpit for their work, and traffic passes through. It also gives visitors a place to sit, and the snack zone of the MW and fridge can be accessed by those from outside the kitchen.


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Wow Live Oak. Thank you very much for your time and the plan. I will show this to the chef and report back.


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## Live_Oak (Aug 22, 2013)

The other thing I wanted to mention is that if your 156" dimension is correct, you don't have room for the fridge next to the DW as it needs at least an 1 1/2" filler and side panel to support a countertop there, and I only used a 33" farm sink base (slightly off center), not a full sized 36" sink base. Or, at least there's not room if you want the sink centered on the window and want a full sized sink. To panel in the fridge also requires at least 39" (two panels on the side with 1 1/2" attached fillers). You're about 8" short for the fridge there with the given dimensions.

So, is that dimension actually correct? Could the window move? Or the door? Or would you be OK with having the sink off center from the window even more?


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## forcedreno2012 (Nov 9, 2012)

Live Oak. No those measurements are not correct, in fact I think they are less. I cannot get to the corner of the kitchen but will have access this weekend to get exact measurements.


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