# CertainTeed Landmark 50 asphalt shingles



## wendyhonold

I am in Sheboygan, WI. In April, 2005 I had a complete tearoff done and had CertainTeed Landmark 50 shingles installed on my home. I live in a heavily wooded area, have gutter screens to help reduce leaf debris, and clean my gutters every fall. Since 2005 there has been a constant loss of shingle gravel, which I find in my gutters and at the wash down areas of downspouts. I also noticed the beginning of warping in several areas. I understand that CertainTeed Horizon shingles were found to be defective. I don't know if this loss of shingle gravel is a constant problem with their products across the board. I can't find any discussion about Landmark 50. I have registered a warranty complaint/claim. I am wondering if ANYONE has information or problems with Landmark 50 shingles. Thank you.


----------



## Docfletcher

The pros on this board may be able to advise you. I took the liberty of looking online for information on your shingle. The sure start warranty for Landmark 50 would seem to be five years as far as I could determine. I did notice some wording about the product being installed with strict accordance with the installation requirements imposed by Certainteed for warranty . Have you discussed this at all with the company that installed the product? If so what did they have to say.


----------



## wendyhonold

The roofer claims he did everything correctly and that any concerns I have would be warranty issues. In registering my claim with CertainTeed, I complied withtheir requirement by providing proof of purchase and proof of installation. I further provided pictures of the newly installed roof of 2005, pictures of all ventalation, pictures of shingle gravel from my gutters, and pictures of warping. CertainTeed informed me that they have no representatives in this area, and they want me to find a contractor who will remove/replace shingles for me to send them a sample for a $50 reimburseable fee. The latter request is not under "What the Customer Must Do" requirements of the warranty.

I have spoken to several roofing contractors about the situation and asking for estimates for replacement. My 2005 warranty does not require that CertainTeed shingles be used. Every contractor, when they hear the name CertainTeed, sneers, scoffs, rolls their eyes, waves a hand like 'they wouldn't touch that brand', and when asked for explanation I've heard numerous performance complaints. Even though Capretz & Associates is representing nationwide consumers of Horizon brand roof shingles manufactured by CertainTeed, which have been linked to premature deteriorating, curling, pitting and moisture invasion, every contractor I have spoken to says that EVERY CertainTeed shingle however labeled is an inferior product and they won't install them. I have not contacted the above law firm as yet. The contractors feel their reputation among consumers suffers when they install a product that has performance issues. They have been recommending IKO or Elk. I'm trying to do research this time, before reinstallation and not just trust the contractor or supplier to know what is best. That's why I'm online asking for all helpful information I can get. I also want to thank you for your assistance and perhaps continued assistance.


----------



## wendyhonold

You mentioned that the pros might be helpful here. I am new to stumbling through the 'how to' of this chat room. How do I reach the pros? I would love to have access to the contractor's chat forum, but I am unable to join, as I am not a contractor. Actually I'm not even a do it yourselfer, I'm just a homeowner who is a sitting duck right now with this defective roof. I don't want to choose another brand to only end up in the same boat or worse depending on the replacement product I choose. Thank you.


----------



## Docfletcher

Can you post some photos? What kind of house? Roof pitch? How is your attic ventilated? Is the ventilation sized correctly? What color is the roof? The answers to these questions would prove helpful. I believe warping can be caused by excessive heat build up. Dos the company that did your roof say that they feel your shingles are defective? 

I'm sure the pros on the board have already seen your post. They may be reluctant to comment with so much information not present. Or they may be concerned with the legal exposure. I can't speak for them.


----------



## wendyhonold

*pictures of Landmark 50*

I have a single storey ranch style home with normal pitch roof. Shingles are gray. I have gable vents, ridge vents and eves vents. I have the collection of photos placed in an 2 excel files (20.3 MB + 6.89MB). I don't know if the files will post. I am not only a newby, I am also unfamiliar with all the procedures for chat exchanges. The roofer has only spoken to me over the phone. He says, as does CertainTeed that some gravel loss is normal. He claims that if I have issues with the performance of the shingles, that it would be a warranty issue and not involve him. He claims that the shingles are installed correctly. I purchased this home in approx 1987 and replaced that roof in 2005. In all those years there was no gravel loss. The amount of gravel I'm losing now is alarming. I don't think these shingles will last a decade even though they are 50 yr. I tried to upload the 2 files, which was taking a long time. My guess is that they are too big. Let me know please. Thank you


----------



## Malcolm

I don't know how much granules you are losing, but I have read that high warranty shingles lose a lot the first couple of years. They put a lot of granules on these shingles to last that long. I think there is a thread on this board that discusses that. I have read bad things about IKO, so I would personally stay away from them. I'm not sure about the waves you are referring to. Can you post a couple of picks? Is it the tar paper showing through, or possible the sheathing bowing? I would look into the attic. I think the use of ridge vents plus gable vents will cause a short circuit of air flow. This may possibly void your warranty. Don't hold me on that though. Wait for Ed to come by. He knows a lot about ventilation.


----------



## Docfletcher

I know your frustrated, I do emphasize with you. For sure you feel victimized. You must get photos up! Even if you have to use another computer. You must help yourself, and you must help me and the board help you. (I hope The Board)
I don't know how to help you off hand. You have talked to a attorney, right? What did he say? How about the BBB, what do they say about your roofer with regard to complaints? I'm not saying your roofer did anything incorrect. Yet, there is a problem. Your job madam is to do a little or lots as the case me be to ferret out who is culpable. Is not the roofer acting on your behave, as your advocate with Certainteed. 

No pros have chimed in? Pros, can you say something here even if generic in nature to offer some sage council. Pros this is your chance to make the board evolve into something more. To make it better, yes much better. Pros, truly you have a opportunity here to help this board evolve into something more. 

AtlanticWB how would you assist your customer? When you say something, it's short and sweet, right to the point, so how bout it . 

Roofer Jim, I tested your metal. I know, I stepped on you toes a little. Ok, a lot. I assure you I meant no disrespect. As a matter a fact I did listen to my roofer. I am doing Cobra. Not just because of your words, but that is a part of it. I know now you are indeed above board. I guess I pushed the envelope a bit. Sorry for sure. Can you not weigh in here ? Do you care and do you want to make a difference. That's what it comes down to. What about you other board members, have you no time to get involved? You don't need to be a pro roofer to chime in! What would you do? How would you pursue this matter. 

This is truly a opportunity to get involved. Isn't that why your here?


----------



## the roofing god

actually we have lives and businesses to run,and come in our spare time,Wendy the granule loss is normal for a short period after roof installation,you should also have soffit vents(at gutter overhang area),alsoit`s very important that you have the proper amt. of attic insulation(my area requires min. R-38),TOO LITTLE INSULATION OR VENTILATION CAN BAKE THE SHINGLES FROM UNDERNEATH CAUSING SIMILAR PROBLEMS-It sounds like defective shingles,but hard to GUESS w/out seeing,certainteed is generally good if all the needs(insulation,ventilation,+waterproofing are met-feel free to e-mail your pics to me and I`ll try to put them [email protected] also helps to know what area you`re in,and if the shingles are fiberglass,or organic base


----------



## Docfletcher

Malcolm, thanks for your input. I was typing away, albeit slowly trying to get others into the scene.
:laughing:


----------



## the roofing god

so doc ,what am I chopped liver?? :no:


----------



## Docfletcher

Dear God, thanks a bunch! 

Doc


----------



## Docfletcher

Ya know God, I waited days for you. Or someone kinda like you, even if a poor imitation to come along and assist. Better late than never.:yes::laughing:


----------



## the roofing god

actually,if you don`t mind,it`s the roofing god or TRG for short,I don`t want to piss off the big guy:thumbsup: -she only posted yesterday dude!


----------



## Docfletcher

Shes, already pissed!!! Thought shall have no other God but thee! I mean chezz, the very thought of a roofing God? Say, where is your temple anyway? It could be worse you know, you could have to work for a living. I used too.:laughing:


----------



## Docfletcher

I think I like TRG. It has a nice ring. That is, I think it comes off nice. Works for me.:thumbup:


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG, I hope you are not mad at me!


----------



## the roofing god

In the end,There shall be only one!:whistling2: (you`re a woman?)


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG, what clan R U? No, I'm a man. At least last time I looked! What on God's green earth made you think I was a woman? :laughing::laughing::laughing::whistling2:


----------



## the roofing god

I referred to the homeowner as "she",you used it as a response to the real god above,usually woman do that,that`s all-no biggie,roofers tend to be thick skinned:wink:


----------



## Docfletcher

:laughing:


----------



## wendyhonold

Thank you, all of you for your input. I took the pictures separately from the folder I had and each individually exceeds the maximum kb range. I will send pictures to Doc and TRG. I would appreciate your advise on what shingle to purchase and which to avoid next time. I enjoy your humor. I too have a full time life and job too and am grateful that you are willing to take your time to help me. My roofer is licensed, insured, member of BBB. I did my research before I chose which roofer to use, but I didn't research products, just told him I wanted maximum life, high wind resistant and mold inhibitors (since I live in a highly wooded area). I will speak to an attorney depending upon CertainTeed's response to my certified mail and warranty claim. My warranty does not require that CertainTeed products are used in replacement, so now after all this gravel loss, I'm searching for a better product.



By way of more thorough step by step review, this brings the shorter version up to date below.


On May 9, 2005 (2 yrs ago), contractors completed replacement of all roofing materials which included your 50 year warranty algae resistant Landmark shingles. In addition to installation of roofing materials, all gutters were removed, cleaned, and reinstalled following the completion of shingle placement. In the weeks that followed, shingle grit/gravel began to appear on the ground at each downspout. I considered the possibility that this might be due to the contractors walking on the roof during installation followed by seasonal rain. 

Every fall all gutters are cleaned of leaf debris for the upcoming winter. In September, 2005 (4 months following installation), I noted a significant amount of shingle grit/gravel remaining in the gutters, which had not washed out through the downspouts. 

In the fall of 2006, all gutters were once again cleared and rinsed. Shingle grit/gravel was present in the gutters again. No one had been on my roof between the fall gutter cleaning of 2005 and fall of 2006, so the additional loss of shingle gravel was not due to any contractors.

This summer (2007), I arranged for painting contractors to prep and paint my home. I paid my roofing contractor to remove all gutters (which were placed on the ground away from the house), so that the painting contractors could prep and paint all wood surfaces, even surfaces which were not readily visible (a very thorough job), as the wood surfaces behind the gutters.

At various times, the painting job was delayed, due to rain or high humidity. Since the gutters were not lying at a proper drain pitch, they filled with water, which if left filled, would perhaps contaminate and become a short term breeding ground for mold/algae and mosquitoes. I turned all of the gutters over to drain the water out until the gutters could be reinstalled. As I did so, more shingle grit/gravel poured out onto the ground from each gutter.


Thanks guys. Perhaps doc or TRG can upload some of these or comment on the pics sent to them.


----------



## wendyhonold

Here are a few more attempts to attach pics. Thank you.
Picture with measuring tape is a picture of the ground where a gutter was turned over to avoid moisture build up. You can see that there is significant shingle gravel even within the distance of 1 foot.

This gutter gravel build up occurred in less than one year, as the gutters were cleaned around the end of October 2006 (as it is best to wait until all leaves have fallen). The gutters were removed for painting contractors around April of 2007. The time that this gutter gravel collected would be about six to eight (6-8) months.

Picture of bowl is a picture of the gutter gravel from the same portion of gutter that did not fall onto the ground when I turned it over, but remained adhered to the interior gutter surface. I removed it manually by rubbing it with a dry paper towel, gave it a light rinse in the bowl which left behind the heaviest gravel. The picture shows gutter gravel free of any other debris. This small portion completely covered the bottom of a flat bottom cereal bowl, and the gravel is about 1/8 inch deep. I shall save this in a labeled/dated package.

Shingle closeup shows the warping that I mentioned. In addition to shingle gravel loss, it would appear that in several places the shingles are beginning to warp. You can see by the level line created by the bottom of the picture, that the curve of the shingles shows warping. The surface under the shingle is flat, and there is nothing under the shingles to create this curve. This picture is not the only area where this warping is occurring. It is random across the roof surface. Since warping is random on my detached (unheated) garage, I don’t believe that the problem is improper ventiliation.


----------



## Malcolm

Unfortunately, I couldn't see the pictures. You should have seen granules after install. Manufacturers actually add what they call free riders or loose granules in the package. These are the granules that didn't get embedded into the shingle. That is why you will see granules for the first couple of years. You would have to show close ups of the shingles. When you send a couple of shingles in for your warranty claim, there needs to be evidence of a problem. Where granules are missing from these shingles and you can see the base. Those pictures you sent with the gable vent and ridge vents may give them an out for warranty purposes. You shouldn't have both of those. The gable vent should have been sealed off when the ridge vent was installed. You should really have a professional look at the roof. I don't really see granules in gutters as a valid warranty claim without seeing deteriorating shingles.


----------



## wendyhonold

another try for pics. The picture with the measuring tape of gravel on ground from overturned gutter was too big a kb file and would not load.

The gable vents were installed in the spring of this year, just before the painters started in March, after my roofer felt that the new ridge vents of 2005 were not enough (replacing the old ridge vent prior to new roof installation). The eaves vents are and were clean. Now there is as much venting as possible. I never experienced heat loss in the attic. The snow always stayed on my roof, except at the highest peak of ridge vent (which it never sealed off-indicating venting). Here in Wisconsin, they have always said that an even coverage of snow across the roof is a sign of excellent insulation and to always watch for this when considering purchasing a home. Melting snow from the roof when temperatures are cold, is an indication of escaping heat. I've never had trouble with my attic before. You might say I've gone overboard to avoid troubles. The eaves vents were there all along with some sort of stacks inside the attic to prevent clogging and promote air flow. Everything else was a complete tear off and replacement (I can't see the point of putting new things over old surfaces just to save a little money in materials and labor, even though the codes allow more than one layer of shingles). Sent all pictures to TSG and doc. Hopefully one of them will help me with the photos that are too many kb. Even though my roofing contractor is the one who did all this work, is licensed, insured and a member of the BBB, as you indicate that I should have a professional look at this, then I question the installers ability and knowledge, especially since he is the one who installed the gable vents, which you say my be a warranty 'out'. The gravel in the pictures were taken after removal of the gutters to allow the painters access to the wood under the gutters and downspouts (thorough, not a cover of only what can be seen). The gravel loss has been ongoing since the beginning. A friend of the family just settled with CertainTeed on his Horizon shingles. I'm beginning to think that CertainTeed is the same quality regardless of the name they call each one. I understand that CertainTeed was sued right and left over Horizon. It's probably too soon to tell if Landmark falls into the same catagory. The roofer that sneered, scoffed, and rolled his eyes won't use CertainTeed anymore, but he is also the one that recommended IKO and I noticed a thumbs down on that one in the responses. Thanks for your continued help. Wendy


----------



## Malcolm

Wendy Honold said:


> another try for pics. The picture with the measuring tape of gravel on ground from overturned gutter was too big a kb file and would not load.
> 
> The gable vents were installed in the spring of this year, just before the painters started in March, after my roofer felt that the new ridge vents of 2005 were not enough (replacing the old ridge vent prior to new roof installation). The eaves vents are and were clean. Now there is as much venting as possible. I never experienced heat loss in the attic. The snow always stayed on my roof, except at the highest peak of ridge vent (which it never sealed off-indicating venting). Here in Wisconsin, they have always said that an even coverage of snow across the roof is a sign of excellent insulation and to always watch for this when considering purchasing a home. Melting snow from the roof when temperatures are cold, is an indication of escaping heat. I've never had trouble with my attic before. You might say I've gone overboard to avoid troubles. The eaves vents were there all along with some sort of stacks inside the attic to prevent clogging and promote air flow. Everything else was a complete tear off and replacement (I can't see the point of putting new things over old surfaces just to save a little money in materials and labor, even though the codes allow more than one layer of shingles). Sent all pictures to TSG and doc. Hopefully one of them will help me with the photos that are too many kb. Even though my roofing contractor is the one who did all this work, is licensed, insured and a member of the BBB, as you indicate that I should have a professional look at this, then I question the installers ability and knowledge, especially since he is the one who installed the gable vents, which you say my be a warranty 'out'. The gravel in the pictures were taken after removal of the gutters to allow the painters access to the wood under the gutters and downspouts (thorough, not a cover of only what can be seen). The gravel loss has been ongoing since the beginning. A friend of the family just settled with CertainTeed on his Horizon shingles. I'm beginning to think that CertainTeed is the same quality regardless of the name they call each one. I understand that CertainTeed was sued right and left over Horizon. It's probably too soon to tell if Landmark falls into the same catagory. The roofer that sneered, scoffed, and rolled his eyes won't use CertainTeed anymore, but he is also the one that recommended IKO and I noticed a thumbs down on that one in the responses. Thanks for your continued help. Wendy


That could be a nail working its way back out causing that warp. They may have not hit the sheathing on that nail. As for the granules, that isn't a lot in my opinion. Every bundle I open, I can pull out a tiny handful of granules. Do a search on google about gable and ridge vents. The soffit vents at the eves are supposed to be your intake air. Your ridge vent allows for the attic air to be exhausted (outtake). When your roofer added the gable vent, it could cause a short circuit of air flow. Air would no longer be drawn from the eaves. Instead it will go through the gable and out the ridge vent.


----------



## wendyhonold

I know the pictures don't seem like a lot of granule loss over only 1 foot of gutter on the ground and in the bowl. This is all that I saved and the first pictures I've taken (2 years from installation). The loss has been consistent from the very beginning evenly distributed along each gutter and downspout, even the garage which is detached and unheated has granule loss. I'll go to google and read on ridge and gable vents. I'm not certain why my roofer would do something to short circuit the flow, unless he's not as knowledgeable as he seems with so many years of experience. Over the past 2 years is the first work I've done with this and he is the only one who has done any roofing or venting work for me. Thanks for your continued help and suggestions.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

I have a link to a very good piece of literature which explains the aging process of asphalt/fiberglass shingles, whether from natural and normal causes or from premature degradation of the product.

A certain amount of excessive granule loss is to be expected. The primary deciding factor about whether or not the amount is excessive would be if the actual shingles are left with bare spots from a lack of granule attachment.

Do you see any bare asphalt exposed on the shingles?

Does the granule surfacing seem consistent throughout the entire roof? Or, is there a small section where a patterned look seems to have the granules missing?

If so, there might have been one or two bad bundles in the entire batch. The word of the roofing contractor stating that for sure he installed enough ventilation should be looked at with a sharp eye on the actual requirements of necessary ventilation to properly balance your attic air space. You need proper balanced intake and exhaust ventilation and the only way to determine the correct amount is to know the actual attic square footage and the total NFVA of Fresh Air Intake and Attic Exhaust being provided.

More than 90 % of all roofs done by "So Called Professional Roofing Contractors" are not done to the manufacturers specifications. Read my roofing blog for more accurate and detailed information about what the manufacturers of the shingles and of the ventilation products have to say about this failure to install roofing the Right Way.

http://rightwayroofing.wordpress.com/

Here is the link I promised you with the information about the aging process. *It is called "The Life Cycle Of Your Roof";*

http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonlyres/5416D259-EA40-4AB9-A0D3-79FDE97F0987/0/LifecycleRoof.pdf

Also, I would have posted sooner, but I worked until 9:30 p.m. last night and had to start at 6:00 a.m. to drive my dump truck to the next job getting started.

It may seem as if we just sit by our computers to answer questions all day long, but usually we are out trying to keep ourselves and our employees employed, which has been a tad bit more difficult in this years economy. 

Ed


----------



## Docfletcher

Well I most certainly will make it a point to remember that the guys are out there doing their thing day by day. Not having time to sit around the board.:yes:


----------



## Docfletcher

I am having a roof put on tomorrow. So I was reading all about it at the GAF
website. I watched all the how to videos explaining GAF installations. The one that struck a cord with regard to Wendy's situation applies to all brands of shingle. It explained never to lay down shingle on a wet or damp deck. That such a practice could cause buckling & blistering of the roof shingles. I'm not saying her deck was wet, only that if it was it may be piece of the problem. 

http://www.gaf.com/General/GafMain.asp?Silo=CONT&WS=GAF Only viewable with internet exploror. The specific video is the one for weatherwatch & stormgaurd.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Wendy Honold said:


> *I have gable vents, ridge vents and eves vents.*
> 
> He says, as does CertainTeed that some gravel loss is normal. He claims that if I have issues with the performance of the shingles, that it would be a warranty issue and not involve him.
> 
> He claims that the shingles are installed correctly.
> 
> I purchased this home in approx 1987 and replaced that roof in 2005. In all those years there was no gravel loss.
> 
> The amount of gravel I'm losing now is alarming. I don't think these shingles will last a decade even though they are 50 yr.


 
The gable vent and the ridge vents installed in conjunction with each other would be short-circuiting the air flow for proper balanced attic ventilation performance.

The old roof did not show signs of granule loss, because the looser "Rider" granules had already been washed off over the many preceeding years. 

The new roof still has many of the excessive "Rider" granules yet to be washed off.

How much of your soffits are vente? Is every single aluminum panel a vented panel? What is the manufacturers stated NFVA performance for the type of panel it is?

If you do not have aluminum soffit panels and they are wood, then how many circular, oval, or rectangular under eave vents are in place. Each one has a stated amount of NFVA from the manufacturer and that must be equal to or greater than the amount of exhaust NFVA.

By the way, NFVA stands for Net Free Ventilation Area. It is a number, usually in square inches, which represents the flowage of venting air that can travel through the product.

Most roofers do not take the time to calculate the proper amount of either the intake or the exhaust ventilation required.

Ed


----------



## Docfletcher

Wendy, you did have the buckling problem before the gable vents were installed...Correct? 

I don't think heated or unheated has anything to do with the ventilation question. That is to say, in the summer it can get real hot in the attic space if there is not enough ventilation. Moisture can also be trapped. Such heat and moisture can cause or contribute to the problem.

Guys do I have that right?


----------



## Ed the Roofer

I wasn't referring to the buckling problem. Her photo did not show enough detail to make an accurate assessment of the cause of the problem and an educated description of a solution.

The granule loss may possibly be attributable to excessive interior attic heat that has not been allowed to flow freely and escape.

Ed


----------



## Docfletcher

:laughing: I meant do I have this right as to why ventilation is important...

"In the summer it can get real hot in the attic space if there is not enough ventilation. Moisture can also be trapped. Such heat and moisture can cause or contribute to roofing problems ."


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Yes,

Now I understand.

Ed


----------



## the roofing god

gable vents can interfere w/cross ventilation between ridge and soffit vents,the granule loss is minimal(associated w/normal wash off)IMO-the buckled shingles could be a problem though there is only one photo of this,which looks like ,buckling or improper underlayment installation(not installed flat or w/out buckles or possibly was wet)-the buckles are typically installation related,and he should deal w/them-IMO---I am posting a link to the pics she sent mehttp://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=78&AlbumID=659&file=5005&s=0-------GOOD LUCK!


----------



## Docfletcher

GAF site says only close off gable vents if using continuous soffit vents. They show a picture of ridge vent, gable vents, and corner soffit vents. They say there looking for 1ft of vent for every 300 sq ft of attic space. 

However, They do specify with Snow Country ridge vent to close off the gable vents.:yes:


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG link no work.


----------



## Malcolm

the roofing god said:


> gable vents can interfere w/cross ventilation between ridge and soffit vents,the granule loss is minimal(associated w/normal wash off)IMO-the buckled shingles could be a problem though there is only one photo of this,which looks like ,buckling or improper underlayment installation(not installed flat or w/out buckles or possibly was wet)-the buckles are typically installation related,and he should deal w/them-IMO---I am posting a link to the pics she sent mehttp://http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=78&AlbumID=341&file=2400&s=0-------GOOD LUCK!


I didn't know that wet shingles/deck could cause buckling. I'm glad I laid out my OC shingles to dry. They were soaked because of the plastic wrap and being stored outside. There are a ton of roofers that leave a job unfinished and do not tarp over their work. For example, half the roof plain will be shingled. When it rains, I would think that water would run under the shingles between the underlayment. I would think that buckling would occur. Is buckling from a wet deck/ wet shingles really that prevalent in the field?


----------



## Docfletcher

I don't know. My roofer just called. I've been put off till tomorrow because he was held up by rain yesterday. I told him what I read about wet decks. He said he never heard of it. Says, been roofing 25 years and never had a problem (gulp). Says when they roof in winter and strip a deck there's water all over from the snow. That don't make sense to me. Tar paper will buckle when wet. I don't care what he says, I won't let him start unless the deck is dry. Tomorrow will be very hot. I would rather they did not roof when hot. Don't see a way around it though. 

Moisture under the shingles is a problem. Thats one of the reasons there's much ado about venting.

I did my roof myself 23 years ago. 3tab, GAF or Owens corning. Can't really remember. Still lies dead flat. Lots of moss and and algae up there now. Decking feels solid under all that (I butt walked it). :laughing:


----------



## the roofing god

common knowledge=wet paper buckles,wet wood absorbs moisture and will buckle unless dried,I roof in the winter also,but you remove snow and rip from the top down,and typically the deck is kept dry unless you`re sloppy about it,ask him why he doesn`t wear a raincoat and roof in the rain if it doesn`t matter:whistling2:


----------



## the roofing god

trying to link it again here


----------



## the roofing god

see if I can get others


----------



## the roofing god

best I can do ,the others are too large


----------



## Malcolm

the roofing god said:


> common knowledge=wet paper buckles,wet wood absorbs moisture and will buckle unless dried,I roof in the winter also,but you remove snow and rip from the top down,and typically the deck is kept dry unless you`re sloppy about it,ask him why he doesn`t wear a raincoat and roof in the rain if it doesn`t matter:whistling2:


I understand the felt wrinkling and plywood buckling causing the shingle to look wavy or buckled. I was referring to the actual shingle buckling because it was wet.


----------



## Docfletcher

Go to GAF, check out the training videos. Kinda hard to get in them. You need to use internet explorer to view them. Look at the one for weatherwatch and storm guard.:yes:


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG I don't want to tick him off just yet. For now I will just be quietly effective.:whistling2:


----------



## wendyhonold

Wow, you guys are really on this. I appreciate it. I'm copy pasting it to Word as we go, so I can print it out later and go over it when I'm away from my computer also.

I know that he covered all of the wood with sheets of black material which rolled out horizontally. It was flat on the roll, but warped on each edge by the time I got home from work. I asked the roofer about this, as it was not warped on the roll before being unrolled, and he told me 'not to worry about that, it does that, and the shingles will cover it up.' As you can see from the 2005 pictures when the roof was newly installed, the warping wasn't immediate. 

With regard to the eaves vents, they are aluminum, i'd say they are all about 8 ft apart. My home is about 1300 sq ft. The vents are on all lower eaves, front and back.

The gable vents are like none I've ever seen. The varying overlap of metal is probably for moisture run off, but just under that edge and only on less than half of the edge are holes like needle pinpricks. I don't believe there are even any bugs small enough to gain access (which is good-no carpenter ants, spiders, etc), but by looking at them, I wouldn't think they would offer much by way of venting. The eaves vents and ridge vents have much more airspace. The one-way bathroom vent next to the north gable vent does not allow intake, it only vents bathroom steam.

I will have to try to view the video from work after hours. I do not currently have sound available at my home computer. It was not reinstalled last time it was overhauled (long story).

Anyway, you guys are so tremendously helpful, could I ask you all for a poll. I will wait until CertainTeed responds to my warranty, very likely hire an attorney, and at the very least, my date of issues can be tracked for any type of repair/replace value toward another roofing job.

The trouble with manufacturers is that they have excellent marketing to promote their product, even if it is S___. *No one knows better than ALL of you gods of roofing.* So may I kindly ask you all please tell me of ALL of the manufacturers you know of that manufacture asphalt shingles. And please list them in the order of superiority as you have witnessed from your own experiences over the years? There was one posting of caution on IKO. I'd love to hear more, because when I move on, I purchase and have installed better quality than what I have now. I have cold feet now about CertainTeed because of the class action lawsuits with Horizon shingles. They started out just like mine, with loss of granules and warping.... I'm going to watch these like a hawk.

*In reverence I bow down to every helpful roofing god (this may sound like I'm joking-but I'm serious). I'm certain that all of your deified levels are well-deserved and well-earned over many years of experience, and that the term god is not self-appointed or dependent upon a vast following, but a stature that you have truly earned. No one would know this more than the best contractors. Even the distributors pay attention to your feedback. *Very Seriously, no one knows the best better than those who work in any field whether it be medical, dental, law, etc. Yet they are all out there practicing, even though their are licensed, and the average consumer doesn't know one from the next. I've worked many fields, and I'm sorry to say that with roofing, I don't know one from the next. I'm depending on you unbiased gods of roofing. Thank you, Wendy


----------



## the roofing god

no the shingle itself won`t buckle from that,it gets pushed up from buckled underlayment,popping nails,etc.


----------



## the roofing god

there is but one roofing god wendy:whistling2: the rest be but legends:laughing: .yourshingles themselves look finecertainteed line due to the asphalt build up to affect the appearance,I have had zero problems w/ Certainteed,and I like their products,my top 3 mfgr.s would be GAF,TAMKO,andCERTAINTEED,not necessarily in that order---please note;ANY material you have installed,it`s warranty and quality only work if they are installed properly,and should have no reflection on the mfgr in these circumstances.your shingles themselves look fine,and the granule washoff is minimal w/in normal range during the settling in period,your problem is more of the roof being installed over buckled underlayment which your roofer should repair under his warranty--GOOD LUCK w/it-TRG


----------



## Docfletcher

I'm not just a legend! I'm a genuine bona fide living legend. I suppose I should qualify that statement by saying that I am not a roofer! Just a little disclosure.:laughing::laughing::laughing::yes:


----------



## the roofing god

referring to others of my ilk of course,you know I`ve done 3 roofs in newtown,connetticut-shoulda called me:laughing:


----------



## Docfletcher

Well, you and I were talking long before I got a roofer. Long before I got the materials. I spoke of the copper in jest. You said I had good taste...Remember?

I thought you were in upstate NY??? Why would you wanna come down here?


----------



## the roofing god

when it`s slow it`s "have guns will travel",I`m in rockland county 5 minutes from the Bear mtn. bridge,I actually do all types of roofing w/few exceptions,along w/home improvementhttp://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=130&AlbumID=665&file=5028&s=0 or you might like this betterhttp://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=130&AlbumID=627&file=4736&s=0 tell me what you think!:whistling2:


----------



## Docfletcher

Yep, I know Rockland County, been there a few times. It's a hike. About 60 miles . 1 1/2 hrs.

I hope the sweetness of low price dos not turn to bitter sorrow of poor workmanship. But, I watched as best I could. We jested at my giving them the pleasure of my company up there with them. :laughing:

Looked like a good job going down.


----------



## Docfletcher

I think the links don't work...
:laughing:


----------



## Docfletcher

Went to the site. found your album, photos are 1" x 1" hard to see.


----------



## the roofing god

right click on them,scroll to display image,and click again,only the old stuff brought up by scanner will not get large---ACTUALLY,I figured out how to fix the links,they work great now,go back and look! ----LINK to her photos also works now!


----------



## Docfletcher

There are issues with the new roof, the 1st minor I think. The last ridge vent shingle is attached with 4 visible nails through the top of it. Nails have little dabs of silicon over them. The owner of the business was on the ground when the last part of ridge was being finished. I think his man did that one wrong. Am I right on this? Timbertex on ridge.:furious:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

The last shingle cap has to have exposed nails.

How else would you expect it to remain attached to the structure?

I don't agree with silicone, but you can always cover it with NP-1, Quad, or Vulkem any time you want. It is a $ 4.00 remedy, so don't let that get your undies all twisted.

Ed


----------



## wendyhonold

Ok, legends or god, as far as I'm concerned there is a throne for each of you and I appreciate your help. Wish I'd found this chat BEFORE I hired a roofer and installed Landmark. So much for living by faith. Never again! I guess it's just like doctors.........it is said that it is always best to get a second opinion.

Yesterday I got the return receipt from the registered mailing I sent to CertainTeed. I imagine I will hear a response soon.

Today I SCRUBBED all of the gutters inside and out........and downspouts too, so they may be reinstalled this week. They are squeeky clean again. I'll watch to see what amount of new granules collect this year.

The gentleman who helped me with the lifting turning and washing today said he'd never seen so much granule loss ever before. Maybe I got a bad batch, and maybe Landmark hasn't been out or named Landmark long enough for a new generation of complaints. When I asked my roofer about quality, he said nothing is made well anymore, or not like it used to be anyway. I guess I understand this point of comparison just by comparing home construction. Homes were formerly much more solid and sound proof.

I was told that they are Landmark 50 is highly rated in Consumer Reports. 

Thank you so much again for all your help. I'll keep logging it for updates and more chat. Wendy


----------



## Docfletcher

ED, I see your point. It is well taken. I did not consider it a big thing.


The other issue is the way way the skylight flashing was handled. They reused the old flashing, prying it up out of the way. It was then pushed back down into position when the shingle time came. Because it was springy it would not stay down flush to the Ice & water. So they nailed each piece in turn down with 2 nails. The nails were covered with some sort of black roofing tar and then the shingle was set in place. 

The front (eve side) also had tar neatly spread under it and was nailed down using nails with much smaller heads than roofing nails. 

Skylight and flashing looks good. I am concerned that it may leak the way it was done.

If new flashing was used it would fit flush without nails and would have no holes in it as it originally was.


Do I have cause for concern here? :whistling2:


----------



## Docfletcher

ED, The last shingle on the ridge could be glued on with PL400! :laughing::laughing::no::no:


----------



## the roofing god

hey doc,ED answered about the 4 nails in the cap,that`s how it`s normally done,if you want you can freshen the sealant and sprinkle some loose granules on them to blend it in,otherwise it`s no biggie,the skylights should have had the flashing removed,ICE&WATER installed up the curbs and then the flashing reinstalled cleanly w/out any sealant(this is one of the finishing details that make a difference)the step flashing would be nailed in each top corner,then the shingle goes over it,then the next stepflashing,shingle and on and on,the bottom and head flashing should have no nails showing,they`re secured by a small nail into the wood side of the skylight which gets lapped by the next piece of flashing,you can probably see an installation booklet at velux.com(andersen,pella,etc.)---we would like to see pictures:wink:


----------



## the roofing god

You are very welcome Wendy!---doc you probably could seal the last piece of cap down but you would have to hold it till the sealant cures:laughing:


----------



## the roofing god

now go back and look at my links doc!:wink:


----------



## Docfletcher

Thanks Ed for tip on the last ridge shingle. :yes:

TRG The flashing was stepped in the manor you spoke of. Ice and water was also done. They used 2 nails, not one on each piece of flashing. I'm not sure why they covered the nailed area with tar, after all the shingles cover the nail heads. You cant see any roofing tar on, in, or under any shingle/flashing piece. Below shows the nails in the front of the skylight (eve side). If thats the head ? There is only one piece of flashing there which runs the full width.
Looks something like below. I will get photos up. Dots of course are nails, only not so many. Maybe 4 or 5. 
____________
! . . . . . . ! 
!___________!


----------



## Docfletcher

It all looks very nice. I'll get some photos up soon. I gota get new camera.

TRG , I looked at your album earlier today. I was intrigued by the standing seam steel roof. Not to take anything away from the other products you had going on. I had already told Wendy to look into steel if she really wanted the best. I've heard aluminum is quite good also.

If I were a smarter man I would have had new copper flashing pieces ready to go for the skylight. It would have been easy to do since I have a roll of copper in the garage. 

Next time you are in Lowes you can see what my old metal ridge vent looked like. They have a kind for sale there that is very much like mine, if not exactly like mine. :yes:


----------



## Docfletcher

Wendy, you are very welcome.


----------



## the roofing god

doc,you can`t use copper w/aluminum,if you have colored nails at the front of the skylight flashing(apron),it`s not good as they can work out from exposure over time


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG, OK, I understand.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Also, most roofers I have seen would not go the the proper measures of buying and using copper nails for the copper flashings. 

I jist did a job last November that had aluminum baby tins and galvanized nails counterflashed with copper. 

The aluminum tins were disitergrating completely and the nails were sheared off at any place they were in contact with the copper.

Don't mix metals!!! Their is a chart of galvanic corrosion, which shows which metals would be comfortably compatible with each other.

Ed


----------



## Docfletcher

My skylight is a somewhat older ROTO brand. The flashing on each side when originally installed was simply slipped under a rubber lip which ran around the whole top of the skylight. The bottom part of each flashing piece folded to 90 degree to sit flush to the shingle line. No nails at all. I'm not saying that was how it was supposed to be finished , only that it was.:yes:


----------



## the roofing god

you don`t see the nails,they`re against the wood skylight frame,it`s called a galvanic reaction,same way they produce electric in a car battery


----------



## Docfletcher

I used to have a metal chimney up above the skylight. My son attached his antenna with mast to it. The base of the mast sat on a small block of wood on the roof. The action of wind rocking it back and forth caused the chimney to work loose, which allowed it do leak. We did not suspect a thing until we started finding ants in the tub area of the bath. More every day it seemed. So, up I went and sure enough the underlay from the chimney down to the skylight side & front soft. The farther down you went the more soft it was. Replaced about 3 1/2 sheets if memory serves. I plucked each & every piece of flashing off that side like feathers off a chicken and there were no nails. The flashing came with the skylight when purchased. I assume it was meant to have the flashing done that way. When I shingled the area I put the flashing back in as I found it. The guys that put the skylight in were supposed to be pros. :laughing:

I know this is a loaded question , but how did copper nails enter the picture?


----------



## Docfletcher

Oh, I get it you think the nails at the head of the skylight flashing may be copper, is that it?


----------



## Docfletcher

I just went up to take a look. They are not copper. They be steel or aluminum from what I can see of them. Very small heads. Steel I think. More of them that I thought, like 10 or 11 of them over a 36" width. Anytime you combine two dissimilar metals you have the potential for galvanic action.


----------



## the roofing god

you mentioned putting new copper flashings on the existing skylights,regular nails into copper are no good,neither is copper step flashing installed w/a aluminum flashed skylight unless a barrier material is used,and the rubber gasket is sealed w/special paint-ist pic copper job link shows damage from rain running off unprotected rubber onto unprotected copper,it intensifies the acid rain and will burn the copper(NG)


----------



## Docfletcher

Yes, but I would have removed the aluminum flashing and used no nails. As it was when 1st installed. Of course if thats wrong you would have told because I would have asked. :laughing:

I did not know about the unprotected rubber lip, acid rain problem though.


----------



## the roofing god

trim nails either alum. or probably stainless steel painted,eventually they will leak and you will have top maintain them w/sealant---then again if the roto is over 10 yr.s old,you should have replacedf it w/a velux(glass warranty only 10 yr.s,roto`s been out of business a long time now we didn`t think any one used copper nails ,Ed was saying if you gave them copper flashings,they probably would have used regular nails which would have caused a problem:wink:


----------



## Docfletcher

Roto is well over 10 years old. At least 15 I would say. Thought about replacing it. Decided not to. May prove a unwise decision. Knock on wood.:laughing:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Thanks TRG, you explained my previous post quite well.

Doc, check the pliability of the rubber seal. A small slice or a dry rot crack could lead to big interior problems.

Ed


----------



## the roofing god

(directed at doc)


----------



## Docfletcher

TRG  Whats that supposed to mean? I was kinda hoping for a comment on the no nails thing.


----------



## Docfletcher

Ed, Outer widow seal around perimeter the glass looks OK. Still somewhat supple. Seems to feel about the consistency of window putty after it starts to set up. 

The other rubber lip that the flashing tops slip under is in great shape.

Thanks for the tip to look it over:yes:


----------



## the roofing god

comment on nails 6 posts back, these mean I`m shocked you were penny wise/pound foolish not to replace the lights w/ the roof,if the roof lasts 30 years ,you will have to change the skylights before then,and it will be a patch job,once those shingles seal in place it`s a P.I.T.A. to remove them for repair w/out damaging the ones next to them,especially w/the newer dura-grip sealant!


----------



## Docfletcher

Yeah, your right. I was to cheep to replace it. I can't replace everything. Other things on and in the house are more important Now you have me concerned, not sure what to do. Cost a small fortune to have the roofer pull the shingles up and slip a new one in. It be fairly large 24 x 48 I think.


----------



## the roofing god

that`s also the point,usually when your roof is being redone,you would pay maybe 50% more than the unit cost for handling&installation,now it will be a much bigger job,I always advise homeowners now`s the time to replace the skylights unless they`re brand spanking new(or INSULADOME/THERMOVUE units)-those sell a top w/ new glass that`s easy to replace w/o messing w/the roof+flashing---now it`ll cost about 3 times the cost of the materials to replace your skylight-I wish you`d asked about that


----------



## Docfletcher

Well, hopefully I won't have a problem. Photo's be up on the board in about a hour.:yes:


----------



## wendyhonold

From the chats I got a non-specific 'avoid' on IKO. Any details? Also a more specific avoid on Elk.

Local suppliers contacted so far carry IKO, Owens Corning, Castle Brook, GAF. I have one more supplier to try. So far I haven't found Tamko. Of the above suppliers, the CertainTeed products (which is the one I have now) are special order.

I am looking for algae resistent, wind resistent, long life warranty asphalt shingles.

So far, algae resistant, are IKO Builtmore, Owens Corning Duration. Got no answers on algae resistance for GAF (but they probably have some).

I don't know much about Owens Corning (I thought they were CertainTeed, but I was wrong).

Any other brands you gods know of????? that are algae resistant and long life? Thanks guys, Wendy


----------



## wendyhonold

Also, if the warping is the underlayment and the roofer's responsibility.............if he messed it up the first time, would a person be able to trust that the same guy would fix it?

The underlayment was rolled out horizontally. What would a person do once the shingles are on to fix that, except to lift a shingle and cut it to lay flat.......and if you cut the 'barrior' how does that protect the wood underneath? 

Thanks again (just want to understand before I call this guy back, or another guy to fix a problem that never should have taken place to begin with:huh.


----------



## Malcolm

Wendy Honold said:


> From the chats I got a non-specific 'avoid' on IKO. Any details? Also a more specific avoid on Elk.
> 
> Local suppliers contacted so far carry IKO, Owens Corning, Castle Brook, GAF. I have one more supplier to try. So far I haven't found Tamko. Of the above suppliers, the CertainTeed products (which is the one I have now) are special order.
> 
> I am looking for algae resistent, wind resistent, long life warranty asphalt shingles.
> 
> So far, algae resistant, are IKO Builtmore, Owens Corning Duration. Got no answers on algae resistance for GAF (but they probably have some).
> 
> I don't know much about Owens Corning (I thought they were CertainTeed, but I was wrong).
> 
> Any other brands you gods know of????? that are algae resistant and long life? Thanks guys, Wendy


I have been doing a lot of research and I haven't heard good things about IKO. If you are interested in aesthetics, algae resistance, and high wind, I would think OC Duration would be a good choice. Their wind resistance is rated really high with the new sure nail technology. I believe you get a 130mph rating with the Duration Premium. It also is less prone to installer error. I would look into a quality install more than the shingle itself. It looks like there are more problems attributed to improperly installed shingles than the shingles themselves. I haven't came across a shingle that a pro recommended and another bashed. Basically, I would go with OC, GAF, Certainteed, or Tamko. Those are the ones I have read good things about. My supplier said Tamko is a builders grade, and that OC is the higher end shingle. A lot of people hate OC though. I am not a big fan of them wrapping shingles in plastic. I do like their new technology though. I also read somewhere that OC bought out Certainteed. Not sure if this is true or not. I also heard OC is really good about warranties.


----------



## Malcolm

Wendy Honold said:


> Also, if the warping is the underlayment and the roofer's responsibility.............if he messed it up the first time, would a person be able to trust that the same guy would fix it?
> 
> The underlayment was rolled out horizontally. What would a person do once the shingles are on to fix that, except to lift a shingle and cut it to lay flat.......and if you cut the 'barrior' how does that protect the wood underneath?
> 
> Thanks again (just want to understand before I call this guy back, or another guy to fix a problem that never should have taken place to begin with:huh.


The underlayment is usually there just to protect the sheathing before the shingles are installed. It is, however, the last line of defense if water gets past your shingles. I see it all the time here. It doesn't look like buckled shingles though. It just looks like a ripple in the shingles (like something underneath is pushing it up). Look at some new construction projects in your area. The felt will be smooth and flat once installed. Go back after a rain and you will see a totally different appearance. I still believe your problem is installer related. I would like to see more pictures of your shingles though. Good luck.


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Malcolm said:


> I also read somewhere that OC bought out Certainteed. Not sure if this is true or not. I also heard OC is really good about warranties.


GAF merged with or bought out Elk. I have not heard any news about Owens Corning purchasing Certainteed.

The latest, "Hot Off The Press" news about Owens Corning is that they are getting rid of their siding product line.

Ed

Most long time professional roofing contractors despise the majority of Owens Corning roofs. Yes, there will be some who will speak up for them as well, but the common consensus id that the OC shingles are garbage.


----------



## wendyhonold

Thanks Malcolm. I appreciate your responses and I will research further. I talked to a local roofer today. It is very common for each company NOT to slam another, so he was not specific except to suggested that I should proceed by having a building inspector come out and give a written report after inspecting the roof, attic, venting, etc......... I suppose then I will know what direction to pursue, whether it be roofing installation or shingle defects. This is the roofer that now uses IKO. He said that he formerly used CertainTeed and stopped about 6 years ago (didn't remember the line exactly that caused him to stop). He said he's had no problems with IKO. He said that he believes that many problems with roofs are due to installation carelessness. He said that all of the top companies in the area here use IKO, and that many of their signs say "sponsored by IKO'. I'm sure there are some perks for sponsorship that benefit the roofer. If I were a contractor, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a customer after using a poor grade product. Hummm!


----------



## Ed the Roofer

He sounds like a very ethical guy, and one that you would want to respect his opinion, since he did not take the easy "Low Road" and slam another contractors work just to get some work for himself.

Also, he is very correct in stating that most material problems can be traced to the initial installation errors, especially in regards to a balanced fresh air intake and hot/humid attic air exhaust sysem being implemented with the new roof installation.

Maybe in that area, IKO has produced a better grade of shingle, but nearly every roofer on any of the dozen or so forum boards, including home inspection forums and insurance adjuster forums I am involved in rates the IKO as the bottom of the barrel.

He was probably referring to the "Horizon" line of shingles produced by Certainteed, by the way. They also had problewms with their organic version of the "Hallmark" line of shingles.

Ed

P.S. Cetrtainteed higher quality shingles cost more than IKO shingles, so the more he sells of IKO, the more profit he makes or the lower his bid can be too.


----------



## Malcolm

Wendy Honold said:


> Thanks Malcolm. I appreciate your responses and I will research further. I talked to a local roofer today. It is very common for each company NOT to slam another, so he was not specific except to suggested that I should proceed by having a building inspector come out and give a written report after inspecting the roof, attic, venting, etc......... I suppose then I will know what direction to pursue, whether it be roofing installation or shingle defects. This is the roofer that now uses IKO. He said that he formerly used CertainTeed and stopped about 6 years ago (didn't remember the line exactly that caused him to stop). He said he's had no problems with IKO. He said that he believes that many problems with roofs are due to installation carelessness. He said that all of the top companies in the area here use IKO, and that many of their signs say "sponsored by IKO'. I'm sure there are some perks for sponsorship that benefit the roofer. If I were a contractor, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a customer after using a poor grade product. Hummm!


Wendy,

To be honest, it is going to be extremely hard to find out anything definitive in regards to who is the best manufacturer. I know Ed and TRG both do not like OC, but in my area, all the top companies sell this over other brands. OC does not offer much for company perks to contractors (that is what I heard), so I would think that it is an unbiased preference. What sold me was their customer service and their willingness to deal with homeowners. You could install an OC roof, and as long as it is installed per their specs, will not have any problems with their warranty division. I have called them a few times and it almost felt like they were offering me money I didn't ask for. I got a batch that was stored improperly. I installed a few bundles and regretted my decision to go ahead and install them. They were willing to pay for the shingles used, pay for the tear off of the shingles, and the reroof of that section. I didn't have to go through any higher ups in the company. I just talked to a person that works in the warranty division.That is why I hate the fact they ship in plastic wrapped bundles. I like companies that do not try to pass the buck onto the roofer, etc. I have never read any complaints about OC not honoring their warranty as I have read with GAF and Certainteed. It reminded me of my State Farm insurance. They kind of tried to go above and beyond what I asked for. With that said, I would only use OC again if it has the new surenail technology. It's nail line tolerance on their original nail line was horrible. It is almost impossible to use a nail gun with the accuracy they expect. The new technology is much better. I would just go with somebody that stands behind their products and has a good reputation. I asked a few roofers in my area who was the best and they all said OC. That is why I went with them. In your area, they all say IKO, so I don't know. I heard a lot of bad things about IKO. That is why I think it is more imperative to have a good install than the material.


----------



## Docfletcher

:jester:IKO #22 out of 25 Consumers Report...Sorry, I just couldn't help but stick my nose in:jester:


----------



## Ed the Roofer

I don't get any additional perks from any shingle manufacturer at all.

Except for a nice jacket and long sleeve dress shirt for being selected as a member of the Professional Roofers Advisory Council. I usually give those away to a crew member, because I prefer my own company name on my clothing.

Ed


----------



## the roofing god

I don`t either,Wendy doesn`t like loose granules and would go berserk over oc,suppliers always pitch the stuff they get a bargain on,I get what I like best!my roofs last their warranty,gaf and tamko both have AR(ALGAE RESISTANCE )on their shingles--I would stick w/either of those.---Wendy-I would have the roofer fix the underlayment,and then enjoy the roof you have---he would use a flat bar,remove12-14 shingles cut the underlayment,then put another piece of underlayment that laps the cut by at least 6" on both sides of the cut---if it`s all over the roof it`s another story,but by your pics it only looks like one spot,and really not just cause to want a new roof---I won`t use the duration(oakridge)either because the seal is too strong,if a tree branch punches a hole in the roof,good luck removing the shingles w/out continually ripping the shingles next to them,it`ll be easier to replace a roof section,as far as nailing the shingle nailing line,I do it all the time w/out a problem!


----------



## wendyhonold

Thanks roofing god!!!! This is very helpful. The roofer that came to inspect the roof said you can't fix the underlayment, you have to replace the roof. I only took one picture, but there are several along the edges, not as visible witht he gutters on. He said it wasn't ice damming, it was underlayment. If that is the case, it would also probably void my shingles warranty, as they are very picky about installation. If the underlayment was installed wet under some shingles, it was probably installed wet under many. It may just take time for more to show. Perhaps it shows now at the lower rim because there is nothing beyond to hold them down. The local roofer who inspected my roof won't give me a written statement, he said to contact a building inspector. I got one name from our township, and a referral from my coworker who just purchased a home. I also spoke with an attorney. He said that since there may be installation problems, I must have more 'probable cause' to pursue warranty issues. He said to contact him again after the roofing inspector goes through the attach, views the roof. Since there were some comments about short circuiting the venting, I will have him look at these things too. The gutters went back up last Friday. Over the holiday weekend I prepped and stain/sealed all of my decks (what a job), and the professional painters finally finished today. Perhaps I will contact the inspectors the first part of next week, as tomorrow is already Thursday.....also to see how much more this will cost (inspection). Prior to re-installation of the gutters and downspouts, I scrubbed them all inside and out....so clean you could eat off of them. Any granules collecting will be into the 3rd year and I can evaluate that next spring/summer. Hopefully this granule loss will stop. I will keep your layment repair instructions for after an inspector looks at the roof & attic. I really appreciate all of your helpfulness. Thank you again! Wendy


----------



## the roofing god

from what I see of your "warps" the material should have been seamed more often as it wasn`t laying flat when the shingles were installed,I don`t see it getting worse,and I don`t think you had a "wet" installation either because the warping would look different-typically ;if you can`t lay your ice shield straight and flat,it should be cut and started again (+lapped 6")every 16' in order to prevent buckling issues


----------



## wendyhonold

I called building inspectors. I'm going in circles. I thought they would have a qualified opinion about insulation, proper venting per sq ft and short circuiting of gable vents, warping, granule loss.

I was told that if this went to court, their opinion wouldn't qualify under 'roofing' and that I needed a roofer to put something in writing. Unfortunately, many comments were made how roofers don't know about insulation and venting (obviously my roofer is one of them).

So how do I find someone who is qualified to make written reports on all of my issues? Thank you, Wendy


----------



## Ed the Roofer

Hire a roofing consultant. Their opinion would be highly regarded. The main group is from the Roof Consultants Institute. I will get a link to their website later and post it.

In defferance to the comment made by the building inspector, their opinion, if intelligeably made, would also qualify for evidence development as would a licensed home inspector.

The, it would be a matter of which parties witness seemed more credible, because the roofing contractor will have an alliance with someone to defend his position as well.

Ed

Here is the link to search for an inspector:

http://www.rci-online.org/


----------



## wendyhonold

I went to the link to get a listing of all certified roofing inspectors in my area. Tried to use direct clicks and it brought up an info entry area. I typed in my info, and it came up with 'no results found'. Does that mean that I have no inspectors in Wisconsin, or that I have to type in the info of every roofing listing in my phone book and get individual results? I was hoping that the website would produce instantaneous results. :huh:Thank you, Wendy


----------



## NateHanson

Click on member directory at the bottom of the page. Select WI from the state menu. Leave all other fields blank, and you'll get 24 listings. Restricting it to Roof Observers and Roof Consultants gets you 7 listings in Wisconsin.


----------



## Docfletcher

Wendy, You can try this also. Just type your zip. 

www.ashi.org/inspectors/education.asp


----------



## Docfletcher

What I have found is that many roofing consultants:

Do not do inspections entailing legal involvement.

Those that do, handle commercial roofing only. 

Certified home inspectors also seem to shy away from anything
involving litigation, or legal involvement. 

I'm in reference to my state, Ct. So it may well be different in your state.

In many days of searching I found one place that would perform the inspection. Across the state line in NY. I wont bother to tell you what the charge would have been. You would not believe it. :no:


----------



## Docfletcher

When you go out to the ASHI site if you click on the standards of practice tab they describe all their inspection routines, including roofing. ASHI may be able address your ventilation questions as well as the roof issues.

I finally got in touch with my attorney after his seemingly long vacation. 
His view is that using another roofer/contractor wood not carry as much weight as one on the certified inspectors. 

I have found that registered/certified roofing inspectors command around $170.00 per hour, portal to portal.

Forensic roofing inspectors up the ante a bit, quite a bit actually. $265 per hour portal to portal. Also they seem to require a retainer of lofty proportions.
$295.00 per hour portal to portal for court appearance. These are the big guns and I would think they are for large commercial clients.


----------



## wendyhonold

Thank you so much for your help with both websites.:thumbsup: I went to each of them again today, typed in the search criteria and came up with the lists. I will contact them individually by email wherever possible and go from there.

While some contractors may not wish to be involved in litigation, if they submit a written report to me and are summoned by the court, they are 'required' to show up, as I understand it. Most cases are settled prior to court hearings, but usually not until the customer has tried all means of communication with the corporate giants, and then is forced to seek legal counsel after being repeatedly pushed aside and ignored. The response I got from Certainteed after they received my certified, return receipt package, clearly shows that they did not even read the letter. 

Anyway, because of all of your help with the pictures I submitted, I have to ascertain whether to go after the roofer, the manufacturer (or both?). This next spring will show the 3rd year of granule loss if any, because the gutters, when reinstalled, where so clean you could eat off of them. Thank you and let me know if you have any other ideas or suggestions.


----------



## Docfletcher

What I meant was some inspectors may lose interest and turn down the job if the inspection is for a remedial action by the courts. 

I would not use a contractor for the report. It will not carry the weight of a registered roofing consultant.

I have a lot going on behind the scenes for my roof issue. When the time comes I will post what went down, and how.

In most states a court will only give you what amounts to least expensive
expensive option to make things right. So the inspector will help you determine that.


----------



## Charlieb42

I had my house built and the builder used Certainteed Shingles and after starting the second year in the house the shingle kept blowing up. I contacted the builder which contacted the people that installed the shingles and what I was told was that I needed to contact Certainteed. 
Certainteed was of no help at all, all I got was the run around and no one would call me back. Well I have been in the house 9 years and my insurance company has paid to replace over half of my shingles. If you build a house or install new shingles stay away from this company.


----------



## Docfletcher

Sounds like they did not adhere properly , thus allowing wind to get under and lift them. 

If they were installed during the winter they might not get hot enough to seal as they should. In which case dirt and other contaminates might get between the glue layers. That could in turn prevent them from ever sealing properly.

I've heard that once the seal is broken it may not reseal with proper strength.

Just some thoughts, I am not a roofer. But, I did have some trials and tribulations with my own roof.


----------



## wendyhonold

*CertainTeed Asphalt Shingles*

Hi Charlie42 & all concerned:

It's been a year since I posted the problems with my CertainTeed Landmark50 shingles continual loss of shingle granuals. I thought I'd wait until this spring to see if the problem continued and they are a newer line STILL losing granules. As I said, mine are a newer line by CertainTeed, but I have info on an older line-Horizon Harvest (you didn't specify your line).

My daughter-in-laws father went to an attorney to go after CertainTeed because they also gave him the run around, just as they have with me. I am convinced that only an attorney can rattle their cage enough to get results and is well worth any fee for the initial lawsuit threatening letter and offer for settlement. At any rate, you are lucky that your insurance company helped you without going after CertainTeed, but you could probably still go after them. In my CertainTeed warranty it states that if the job wasn't a complete tear down and replacement of everything including underlayment, that the warranty would not apply (I tore everything off before I knew that because I didn't want crappy shingles underneath new ones (and you can't see the underlayment stuff until you get the shingles off. The shingles your insurance company was willing to replace, and depending on how it was done, may not be covered by the replacement shingle company (don't know).

Anyway, as with the Horizon line, the attorney's research found that there were so many claims against CertainTeed that it was very clear that this entire line was defective. There was talk about a class-action lawsuit (where everyone victimized by CertainTeed is on the bandwagon), but I don't know if that was ever started.

The most important anyone can do is have pictures of the damage, and file a claim right away. Even if they give you the run around, you can prove by the warranty claim date, when the damage became apparent, and that is the date that the attorney can use to recover the most damages (money) for you. The replacement cost will be prorated from the original retail cost. The % between the length of time that they were useful and the warranted life of the shingles will prorate deducted from shingle replacement price. In other words, the sooner after installation that a person files a warranty claim, the more money they stand to recover.

My daughter-in-law's father fought with CertainTeed for a very long time Nov 2000, before he finally called in an attorney in 2007. The attorney wrote a demand letter on 4/2/07 and gave them only until 4/20/07 to accept the offer and that a counter offer would not be accepted. CertainTeed agreed to settle.

It's too bad that a company can market a product that makes it sound like the best thing since sliced bread, and then end up being one of the worst companies I've ever heard of.

A local roofer that I spoke with last summer (who travels the country doing big jobs) said that he won't use CertainTeed, he recommends IKO's Builtmore. My daughter-in-laws father, before any of my problems became apparent, went with Elk.

I'm going to have to continue to pursue CertainTeed. When I filed for my initial claim, I sent it registered mail, return receipt requested so I could prove that they got it along with the date, and copies of all paperwork and pictures supplied. 

Good luck to you, Wendy


----------

