# insulation question



## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

hello,

I want to add a layer of insulation to my attic. I noticed the current insulation has seemed to flattened out a bit. Not sure how. The joists are 2x4. Is it ok to just go perpendicular with the new insulation even though the current insulation is not all the way to the top of the 2x4 joists?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Moved to Insulation forum.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Please go back and add your location to your profile.
Just go to Quick links to edit.
Hard to suggest what insulation you need when you could be anyplace on the planet.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table

What's there now for insulation?

Has the attic been air sealed ( sealing up all the holes where wiring, plumbing, ceiling light, fans were installed.

Do you have soffit and ridge vents?


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Please go back and add your location to your profile.
> Just go to Quick links to edit.
> Hard to suggest what insulation you need when you could be anyplace on the planet.
> http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table
> ...


Yes there is air flow in the attic. Right now its batt insulation.


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

joecaption said:


> Please go back and add your location to your profile.
> Just go to Quick links to edit.
> Hard to suggest what insulation you need when you could be anyplace on the planet.
> http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table
> ...


Im not asking how much I need. I know how much I need. My question is the current batt insulation is not quite at the top level of the floor joists so it alright to add the additional bats perpendicular over what is already there?


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

first and foremost, AIRSEAL!

second, no, there would be no purpose to install insulation crossing the rafters if its not going to be in contact with the insulation presently there. There would be an air gap that would essentially kill the r-value of the new insulation. Why not blow in? And exactly how old is this home if the insulation is not filling a 2x4 beam. Regardless of what climate zone you are in, that is no good.


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> first and foremost, AIRSEAL!
> 
> second, no, there would be no purpose to install insulation crossing the rafters if its not going to be in contact with the insulation presently there. There would be an air gap that would essentially kill the r-value of the new insulation. Why not blow in? And exactly how old is this home if the insulation is not filling a 2x4 beam. Regardless of what climate zone you are in, that is no good.


I can't afford blown in. Can I just go parallel then so its in contact with what is there now? This insulation is in the joists not the rafters. Home is built in 64.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I see you still have not added where you live, what type insulation you now have now.
Blown in is cheaper then batts.
Any Lowes or HD will let you have the blower for free is you buy at least 10 bags.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

its only going to work if it is in contact. and i have news for you, my friend, blow in is cheaper.

If you don't have the money to do it the right way, then wait till you do. Trust me, you aren't going to see the improvements you are looking for if you don't address the issue properly. If money is tight, go to home depot, get a $50 spray foam gun and 5 cans of foam and a piece of foamboard and airseal EVERYTHING. That investment will pay itself off over one heating and cooling season, and give you a little comfort till you can properly insulate.


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> its only going to work if it is in contact. and i have news for you, my friend, blow in is cheaper.
> 
> If you don't have the money to do it the right way, then wait till you do. Trust me, you aren't going to see the improvements you are looking for if you don't address the issue properly. If money is tight, go to home depot, get a $50 spray foam gun and 5 cans of foam and a piece of foamboard and airseal EVERYTHING. That investment will pay itself off over one heating and cooling season, and give you a little comfort till you can properly insulate.


Is it easy to use the machine? What is better cellulose or fiberglass as far as blow in?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Cellulose.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

miguel24932 said:


> I can't afford blown in. Can I just go parallel then so its in contact with what is there now? This insulation is in the joists not the rafters. Home is built in 64.


Blow in insulation is a lot cheaper than fiberglass rolls or bats! heck, I went to my local lumberyard and bought a dozen or more bales of the treated cellulose stuff and the machine was free to use, took me a couple of hours and it was done.
This is the same insulation that was used in the walls in the 70s here.

Cellulose insulation has an R-value of about 3.5 per inch of thickness, compared to fiberglass batt’s R-value between 3 to 4 per inch. 

You don't get the itchy particles in your skin or the hazzardous microscopic GLASS particles in the air that you get from fiberglass.

I bought enough bales to insulate my attic to the height of my waist when standing on the rafters, I calculated about an R100 value.

The machine is nothing much more than a reverse vacuum cleaner with a garbage pail hopper on it, you just dump the bales in the hopper, turn it on and it has a turning set of spikes that break up the somewhat compressed bale and then blows it out thru a hose. You set the thing on the porch and run the hose up into the attic and start blowing while a helper keeps the hopper full.
I did it by MYSELF, only trouble I had was the lousy hose had some damage and it kept plugging up, so I cut the last 5 feet off the damn hose and that solved the problem and they never missed the 5 feet.

As far as cost, here:

http://www.midlandhardware.com/40-S...e-Insulation-Atr-19-Green-Fiber_p_102378.html

40 SQFT Cocoon Brand Cellulose Insulation Atr-19 Green Fiber
*Your Price:* $9.27
*Weight:* 19.05 pound(s)


$100 worth, or ten bales/bags will go a long way, I did my attic waist high with about 15 bags as I remember, it was around $100 total.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

Definately cellulose. The fiberglass gets more footage per bag, for a little more money, but more r-value in the cellulose.

3.7 per inch as opposed to 3.2, and only high 2's for the batts.

They have the chart right on the bags you purchase as to how many you need to get to a certain r-value per 1000 sq ft.

On a side note, if 15 bags did your entire attic waste high, you must have an extremely small attic.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> Definately cellulose. The fiberglass gets more footage per bag, for a little more money, but more r-value in the cellulose.
> 
> 3.7 per inch as opposed to 3.2, and only high 2's for the batts.
> 
> ...


I think the bags were larger 12 years ago than what's sold today, they were big, and I am guessing it was 15 bags, I remember the total cost wasn't much more than $100, it could have been more bags than 15 but @ $5 a bag it could have been 20 bags.
There already was some cellulose insulation in the attic to begin with, I'm thinking about a foot deep.

I have a 1000 sq ft house but the center section I converted to a cathedral ceiling, so there's no attic there, but the attic is over a 12x24 section and a 12x12 section roughly.
The cathedral ceiling has about 10" of celotex board and an air space, and @ 7.1/inch R value that section is around R 75.

I personally don't trust fiberglass insulation, ESPECIALLY the stuff blown in! It's made out of spun GLASS fibers, and even though Johns-Manvill, Owens-Corning etc all claim their stuff is "safe" and that the glass breaks down in the lungs when inhailed, as we all know glass is almost forever, it doesn't rust, rot, corrode, catch fire or "go away" and is impervious to household cleaners, chemicals, solvents, and about the only thing that does much to it is sulphuric acid and even then it's over a long period of time.

The fiberglass manufacturing industry includes many of the same corporations which created the asbestos tragedy, except now these corporations are larger and operate in many countries. Despite recent bankruptcies, the fiberglass manufacturers retain much wealth, in the form of factories, brand names and distribution channels. Their long fingers reach into universities and medical centers, where their money pays for " research" on the safety of their products.
This "research" may sound scientific, but always determines the product cannot be proven hazardous.



Here's a few cases involving fiberglass, every one of them another reason to AVOID fiberglass- ESPECIALLY blown-in loose fill stuff, if it's loose it gets in the air every time you open the attic door or the wind blows hard.

The Branstetter family of Ft. Myers, Florida, had an air conditioning system that was so leaky, the air handler unit became literally packed full of fiberglass. The daughter, now 15, is diagnosed with respiratory disease.  

The Branstetters settled their fiberglass injury case. Although the settlement was for $125,000, much of that will go to the attorney and the family still has a sick daughter and a contaminated house. "How do you figure I won?" asks Cheryl Branstetter. 

Lilly Brown became sick while working at a Children's Center in a posh Palm Springs, California, suburb. A poorly designed and haphazardly installed heating and air conditioning system spewed fiberglass around the building. The case was settled for $825,000.

The Markel family suffered greatly because their air conditioner, immersed in an attic full of fiberglass, spread the tiny fibers all over their home. The family's two boys, ages 4 and 6, appear to have permanent respiratory disease. 

The Glass family (not their real name) bought a new house in the Southwest and became sick soon after. You can probably guess the reason why.


http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/victims.htm


While many see the benefits of insulating our houses with fiberglass, some are worried fiberglass can cause various health problems -- it's capable of causing immediate skin irritation, and some researchers fear inhaling fiberglass particles could cause cancer.

If you've ever come in contact with fiberglass, you already know what it can do to your skin. The tiny fibers of glass from insulation wool can irritate your skin and eyes If you experience too much contact with fiberglass, it can cause what's called irritant, contact dermatitis* 
*
or inflammation of the skin. Breathing in fibers can also increase the difficulty of breathing. Is that the extent of the trouble fiberglass can cause, or are there more serious health effects?

It also has some worried that the fibers from fiberglass are just as dangerous as asbestos -- it's sometimes referred to negatively as "man-made asbestos" or the asbestos of the 20th century. Research on fiberglass inhalation has come to various conclusions. A study in 1970 on rats stated that "fibrous glass of small diameter is a potent carcinogen" [source: Consumer Law].


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

to Rwolf,
I am just going to toss this out because California has cellulose dust or wood dust now on their Prop 65. http://www.rx4cleanairllc.com/uncategorized/cellulose-insulation-a-blessing-or-a-malediction.html 
this is to be fair. Not enough testing or studies over long term real world exposure to cellulose insulation has been done. Cellulose when made in the paper mills not when the insulation is made. but when the wood fibers are made in to paper. this is just some of the chemicals that are present in the paper that are not removed when it is turned in to insulation. this is the link http://www.paperonweb.com/chemical.htm The Borites are inert and safe but the other chemicals that linger from the original pulp process stays in it and may cause problems. Just saying over 40 years of strict testing of fiber glass, and almost zero testing of long term cellulose. it is just something to think about. Still is a good insulation when done right.
Oh and as for a carcinogen Fiberglass is not listed on Prop 65 except for the binders that have formaldehyde. so your claim is not factual.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Sure, well, according to California everything causes cancer  some of the worst legislation and regulations start there.

I'm not going to argue that dusts- ANY dusts are harmless, even natural sand/rock dust blown off roads and fields contributes to silicosis, coal dust causes miner's lung, but the fact still remains that spun fiberglass wool insulation is made from GLASS, let's not lose sight of the fact that glass does not break down like wood dust (an organic material) does, and it breaks into tiny particles that penetrate skin and can be breathed in.
One of the causes of cancer is considered to be constant long term irritation, which GLASS fibers trapped in your lungs would be inclined to do.

Also keep in mind the huge companies like Grace (who it was proven in court knew about the asbestos in their vermiculite min and kept selling the vermiculite as building insulation, and when faced by the class action suits they filed for bankruptcy, reorganized and rebranded, getting away literally with murder)
Owens-corning, and Johns-Manville are no different, they have teams of lawyers to defend against suits, and to put the brakes on regulations, that is why fiberglass is not on that list as a PROVABLE carcinogenic material, because the word "provable" is the key word here, how do you PROVE beyond doubt in court that something causes cancer? All you can do is present evidence it may.

But no need to take my word for it, just read the New York Times, first note the predicatable statement from "industry officials"


By PHILIP SHABECOFF, Special to the New York Times
*EVIDENCE GROWS ON POSSIBLE LINK OF FIBERGLASS AND LUNG ILLNESSES*

Emerging evidence that fiberglass and other manufactured mineral fibers may cause lung cancer and other diseases is creating a sensitive, potentially far-reaching public health issue.

The evidence, although far from conclusive, is sending tremors through the fiber industry and Federal regulatory agencies. *Industry officials, however, insist the evidence to date shows no health problem.*
Now, recent studies of the health histories of workers who make fiberglass, rock wool and ceramic fibers, as well as tests on laboratory animals, suggest that the substitutes themselves may pose a health threat, albeit one of still unknown and heavily debated dimensions.



It's not even so much a risk of cancer as it is a risk of developing lung diseases from breathing the stuff in. I don't want blown in fiberglass in my attic, nor would I use a machine and blow it in and get all that glass dust everywhere, and have it filter thru tiny cracks and holes over time.
Any material that warns that you have to wear a respirator, gloves, not get it on your skin, clothes etc etc just to handle it, is not a good idea to be dumping into your home.




*What is fiberglass?*
Fiberglass is a silicate fiber made from very fine strands of glass. Today, it is primarily used for insulation in homes and buildings to replace asbestos. 
*How does fiberglass affect your health?*
Studies have shown inhaling these fibers can reduce lung function and cause inflammation in animals and humans.1 A study published in 2006 found that, independent of other environmental hazards and respiratory problems, fiberglass altered components of the lungs in men working in glass fiber-reinforced plastic processing.1 Fiberglass can cause skin, eye and throat irritation. At higher exposure levels, fiberglass also has been associated with skin rashes and difficulty in breathing.
Fiberglass emits a synthetic material called styrene, which is a possible carcinogenic according to the IACR and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.2 At high levels, styrene can cause tiredness, concentration and balance problems, and irritation of the eyes, nose and throat. More information on the health effects of styrene can be found on the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) website.




Abbate, Carmelo, et al., eds. Changes Induced by Exposure of the Human Lung to Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastics. _Environmental Health Perspectives_ 114 (11), 2005: 1725-9.
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). ToxFAQs for Styrene. Department of Health and Human Services. September 2007.


*Is the Fiberglass in Your Attic or Walls Causing Cancer? *



 The National Toxicology Program first ruled that fiberglass is “reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen,” then revised the ruling to include only certain glass wool fibers (those that are inhalable), which excludes fiberglass;
 Consumer groups are challenging the revised label, claiming the formula the EPA and NIH used to determine carcinogenicity diluted the results, making them look like fiberglass is safe when it really isn’t
 When working with fiberglass, choose only formaldehyde-free varieties and wear protective clothing and a respirator; even better, opt for non-toxic insulation materials made from sheep’s wool, recycled blue jeans, newspapers or other natural materials

*U.S. Government Says Fiberglass is “Reasonably Anticipated” to Cause Cancer – Then Changes its Mind?*Animal studies have shown that certain glass fibers can cause tumors in animals’ lungs and other tissue sites, while cell studies have shown that certain fiberglass fibers may cause damage to DNA. Fiberglass was nominated as a top safety concern on the synthetic mineral fiber list for the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) back in 1994. At that time, it was listed as “reasonably expected to be a human carcinogen" by the National Toxicology Program (NTP). However, in 2011, the updated NTP “Report on Carcinogens”i noted:ii_“__Certain glass wool fibers (inhalable) are reasonably anticipated to be human carcinogens based on _


_sufficient evidence of carcinoge*nicity from studies in experimental animals of inhalable glass wool fibers as a class … and _
_(2) evidence from studies of fi*ber properties which indicates that only certain fibers within this class — specifically, fibers that are biopersistent in the lung or tracheo*bronchial region — are reasonably anticipated to be human carcino*gens.”_
What is important about this wording is the term “certain glass wool fibers (inhalable),” which by definition _excludes_ fiberglass from receiving a carcinogenic listing. NTP explains this by saying that fiberglass is less durable and therefore less likely to remain in your lungs when inhaled, as compared to other types of glass fibers used for “special purposes” like aircrafts:iii​*Why Was Fiberglass Removed from the Cancer List?*

By removing fiberglass from the “reasonably anticipated to cause cancer” list, OSHA doesn’t list it as a problem for workers, which means dangerous exposures may continue to occur, particularly in factories where fiberglass products are produced or worked with on a daily basis. One consumer group, the National Association of Clean Air Agencies, is protesting the findings, pointing out that the formula the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and NIH used to determine carcinogenicity diluted the results, making them look like fiberglass is safe when it really isn’t.


There is also this from the Dept of Health, Washington State

Damaged or disturbed materials, such as fiberglass insulation, may release fibers into the air. Airborne fiberglass may eventually settle with other airborne particles as a part of dust. 

A person may be exposed to fiberglass by breathing, ingestion, or skin contact. Occupational exposure is expected to be highest among workers who install or remove insulation or are routinely involved in building maintenance and repair. People who work with fiberglass should wear protective clothing, gloves, and safety glasses with side shields, as well as a particulate respirator. Non-occupational exposures, such as that experienced in your home, office, or school, would likely vary depending on the condition and movement of fiberglass-containing materials and airflow within the building or room.​ Individuals may be exposed to fiberglass through home maintenance work or by moving materials containing fiberglass. 

When a person inhales fiberglass, larger fibers may be trapped in the upper airway. Smaller fibers may be inhaled deep into the lungs. Inhaled fibers are removed from the body partially through sneezing or coughing, and through the body’s defense mechanisms. Fiberglass that reaches the lungs may remain in the lungs or the thoracic region. Ingested fiberglass is removed from the body via feces.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

RWolff said:


> I'm not going to argue that dusts- ANY dusts are harmless, even natural sand/rock dust blown off roads and fields contributes to silicosis, coal dust causes miner's lung, but the fact still remains that spun fiberglass wool insulation is made from GLASS, let's not lose sight of the fact that glass does not break down like wood dust (an organic material) does, and it breaks into tiny particles that penetrate skin and can be breathed in.
> One of the causes of cancer is considered to be constant long term irritation, which GLASS fibers trapped in your lungs would be inclined
> 
> 
> ...


Well lets be honest here and not fear mongering. Once insulation is in the walls or attic people are not rolling around or kicking up dust of fiberglass so it becomes inert non harmful. you also forgot the IARC study the tulane medical study and the university of Pitsburge study. The Tulane medical center studied over 1000 workers exposed at high levels of fiberglass on a daily bases and found no increase in respitory problems. The IARC the International Agency of Reasearch on cancer. Showed that Lung Cancer death rate among fiberglass workers did not differ from those of the General population. And the university of Pitsburge has been doing a on going study of over 30,000 fiberglass workers over the past 20 years. and have found that they are at very low risk from getting lung cancer. so stop fear mongering. And FYI you have to wear a dust mask and gloves with Cellulose as well and it does carry preloaded toxic chemicals like Abestine and it has the same characteristics as asbestos. it is used to make news print and cardbord. still is in the cellulose that is blown in. That is a fact. not a statement.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

RWolff said:


> Sure, well, according to California everything causes cancer  some of the worst legislation and regulations start there.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

That is funny.

Apparently being over 160 billion in the red doesn't though.

You got some great advice in here miguel. Trust these guys. Go blown in and go with cellulose. 

Air seal first and use proper PPE (personal protection equipment) like a respirator/mask. 

You home will really notice the difference.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Nailbags said:


> Well lets be honest here and not fear mongering. Once insulation is in the walls or attic people are not rolling around or kicking up dust of fiberglass so it becomes inert non harmful.


That is true to some extent, but like asbestos we're talking about microscopic particles and there's probably no house on earth that has a hermetically sealed attic, there will always be tiny cracks and holes, and new ones open as houses constantly "move" due to temperature changes and so forth.
Many people use their attic for storage too and there's almost always a hatch or door or sliding steps to get in and out with.
The issue here with the opening post is that he needs to do the work himself as he said he doesn't have a lot of money to spend, that means he will be the one handling the material and putting it in and that starts the biggest exposure right there.




> you also forgot the IARC study the tulane medical study and the university of Pitsburge study. The Tulane medical center studied over 1000 workers exposed at high levels of fiberglass on a daily bases and found no increase in respitory problems.


You have to also look at the SOURCES of these "studies" and who is funding them, plus the fact that cancer can take 30 or more YEARS to develop, and none of those studies have gone on that long. Also these days it's rare to find employees staying in the same job 40 years as was common in the old days, a kid gets out of school and takes a job working in a place like a fiberglass factory, stays a couple of years if even that long and moves on, that's much more typical than starting with a company at 18 and retiring with a pension from them at 65.

We know positively that smoking causes cancer, yet the tobacco companies have teams of lawyers to fight lawsuits, studies in the past funded BY tobacco companies "proving" their products were "safe" are highly suspect.




> so stop fear mongering. And FYI you have to wear a dust mask and gloves with Cellulose as well and it does carry preloaded toxic chemicals like Abestine and it has the same characteristics as asbestos. it is used to make news print and cardbord. still is in the cellulose that is blown in. That is a fact. not a statement.


I'm not "fear mongering" I'm reporting what is out there, and I'll state again, the stuff is made from GLASS, and if you don't breathing in ground GLASS and feel comfortable doing so, go for it. No dust is safe to breathe in, but ground newspaper is going to be less of a lung damage/carcinogenic risk than breathing in ground GLASS!

Just google fiberglass insulation cancer toxicity and start reading on page one of the 330,000 results that come up and decide for yourself who to trust, the conglomerates like W.R. Grace who knowingly exposed millions to asbestos they KNEW was contaminating their vermiculite mines, went bankrupt to avoid paying claims, rebranded and popped back up.

If you want to read more about the two major fiberglass companies, you have to decide if YOU want to trust their "safety" claims etc, a few headlines should offer some clues about both of these companies and their history:


Feb 11, 2013 – _Owens Corning_ was the first to manufacture _fiberglass_ insulation and this *...* was the defendant in roughly 84,500 asbestos-related _lawsuits_.

*Owens Corning carcinogenic fiberglass*

www.bigclassaction.com/*lawsuit*/*fiberglass*.php
Apr 12, 2006 – _Owens Corning's Fiberglas_ ®, _Fiber Glass_, Glass Fiber and GlassWool: An Alleged Carcinogen That's Everywhere - The Asbestos of the 21st *...*

*Owens Corning could be liable in proposed class action despite ...*

www.insidecounsel.com/.../*owens*-*corning*-could-be-liable-in-...
May 21, 2012 – *...* Friday that _fiberglass_ manufacturer _Owens Corning_ Sales could be *...* In 2009, two _Owens Corning_ customers _sued_ the company for fraud

*Articles about Owens Corning Fiberglas Corp*


articles.latimes.com › Collections
_Owens_-_Corning_ to Appeal Personal Injury Award: _Owens_-_Corning Fiberglas_ *...* makers asked an Oakland judge to dismiss _Owens Corning's lawsuit_ seeking 

*in re: johns-manville corporation - Caselaw - FindLaw*

caselaw.findlaw.com › Caselaw › United States › US 2nd Cir.
Feb 15, 2008 – _Johns_-_Manville_ Corporation, Manville Corporation, Manville *....* In response to the growing number of Direct Action _lawsuits_, on June 19, 2002, *.....* Among these claims were two _class actions_,

*Encyclopedia of White-Collar & Corporate Crime - Volume 1 - Page 59 - Google Books Result*

books.google.com/books?isbn=0761930043
Lawrence M. Salinger - 2004 

Asbestos _suits_ were most likely to name the Manville Corporation, which was the largest as- *...* The decision was made to certify asbestos claims as _class action lawsuits_ because individual *...* SEE ALSO _Johns_-_Manville_; employee safety.



*Asbestos-victim Fund Supported Catasauqua Action Is Part Of Johns ...*


Oct 15, 1986 – Catasauqua is one of hundreds of school districts in the nation that have joined in a _class_-_action suit_ against _Johns_-_Manville_, which was once *...*

*Johns Manville Bankruptcy: Find an Asbestos*

www.weitzlux.com › Previous Investigations › Archive
Video that offers information about _Johns Manville's_ efforts to shield itself from asbestos related _lawsuits_, from LegalView: Information on _class action lawsuits_

Feb 22, 2013 – _Johns Manville_ was named as a defendant in thousands of asbestos product _lawsuits_ and has paid billions of dollars in compensation.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Windows on Wash said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> That is funny.
> 
> ...


LOL yeah well, you read the labels on things and it seems like they almost all say something like *"this product contains ingredients known to the State of CALIFORNIA to cause cancer"* so I guess if you live in Wisconsin you are safe, you just get the cancer in California


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> first and foremost, AIRSEAL!
> 
> second, no, there would be no purpose to install insulation crossing the rafters if its not going to be in contact with the insulation presently there. There would be an air gap that would essentially kill the r-value of the new insulation. Why not blow in? And exactly how old is this home if the insulation is not filling a 2x4 beam. Regardless of what climate zone you are in, that is no good.


I have decided to do the blown in cellulose like you suggested. Lets say I have like an R-11 right now, if that. If I add another R-19 do you think I will see a difference as far as less humidity and any heat gain/loss?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

miguel24932 said:


> I have decided to do the blown in cellulose like you suggested. Lets say I have like an R-11 right now, if that. If I add another R-19 do you think I will see a difference as far as less humidity and any heat gain/loss?


If you add another R19 that would be about R30- more than doubling the present value, that's good, more is better, so as long as you have the machine and are doing to work it is the best time to just get a few more bales of the stuff and put them in, the only cost then is the bales, you already have acost to do the work and the labor of getting the blower home, setting it up, doing the work, cleaning any mess you make etc, so it makes good sense to just try and spend a little more and add more once.

You should see a significant difference in the heat/cold, I dont think humidity will be in any way affected one way or another. If you are in a warm climate the A/C does the dehumidifying, in winter usually there isn't much of a humidity issue which is why a lot of people have to install a humidifier in their heating system because the air gets too dry.

Just be sure when you blow the insulation in that you dont cover any vents up with it, if need be you can build a little "dam" around any vents out of whatever- thin plywood, or whatever works to keep the insulation from covering the eave or soffit vents.
You may need to build a little 4 sided "dam" box around your hatch opening if thats your access, to keep the insulation from falling into the hatch hole.


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

RWolff said:


> If you add another R19 that would be about R30- more than doubling the present value, that's good, more is better, so as long as you have the machine and are doing to work it is the best time to just get a few more bales of the stuff and put them in, the only cost then is the bales, you already have acost to do the work and the labor of getting the blower home, setting it up, doing the work, cleaning any mess you make etc, so it makes good sense to just try and spend a little more and add more once.
> 
> You should see a significant difference in the heat/cold, I dont think humidity will be in any way affected one way or another. If you are in a warm climate the A/C does the dehumidifying, in winter usually there isn't much of a humidity issue which is why a lot of people have to install a humidifier in their heating system because the air gets too dry.
> 
> ...


Our house gets very humid in the summer. Increasing the insulation would help as to keep out some of the warm humid air that escapes through the attic in the living area, right?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Air sealing is pivotal in that case and I don't see any exposure risk from blowing cellulose and especially in an air sealed attic. 

There is not going to be any dust circulating at that point.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

Airsealing is what will truly stop the air from moving from your home to the attic or vice versa. Insulation simply slows it down so the temperatures meet at a median.

Now, for as far north as you are, I'd recomment adding at least R-30 on top of the R-11, but that is something that can be done anytime. I think you would see quite an improvement if you did add the 6-8 inches. At least make sure you are up and over all the framing members and the layer is continuous except areas you intentionally avoid such as air handlers, access', ducts and what not.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...xf51fE&sig=AHIEtbQixCH3AO0RugCGh3VLQNBaXp54rA

Gary


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> Airsealing is what will truly stop the air from moving from your home to the attic or vice versa. Insulation simply slows it down so the temperatures meet at a median.
> 
> Now, for as far north as you are, I'd recomment adding at least R-30 on top of the R-11, but that is something that can be done anytime. I think you would see quite an improvement if you did add the 6-8 inches. At least make sure you are up and over all the framing members and the layer is continuous except areas you intentionally avoid such as air handlers, access', ducts and what not.


As far as sealing around metal chimney chases in the attic can I use the fire rated spray foam, high temp silicone or acoustical sealant?


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

miguel24932 said:


> As far as sealing around metal chimney chases in the attic can I use the fire rated spray foam, high temp silicone or acoustical sealant?


You need metal flashing and high temp caulk. The fire rated spray foam is only effective up to certain temperatures. just cut the flashing to fit the chase any way you wish, pop a couple staples or even metal tape to secure it in place and caulk the seams.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Metal is easiest to use but fire rated drywall and intumescent sealants will work.


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## miguel24932 (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> You need metal flashing and high temp caulk. The fire rated spray foam is only effective up to certain temperatures. just cut the flashing to fit the chase any way you wish, pop a couple staples or even metal tape to secure it in place and caulk the seams.


Im talking about where the chase enters the attic not the roof.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Still metal or drywall. You need to seal it and build a high enough box around it to keep the insulation off it.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

miguel24932 said:


> Our house gets very humid in the summer. Increasing the insulation would help as to keep out some of the warm humid air that escapes through the attic in the living area, right?


What usually happens is the attic gets very hot during the day when the sun is out, and then at night you get a heat "soak down" the radiant heat from the attic working it's way down to the ceiling of the rooms, so after sundown if you don't have a well insulated attic you might notice the heat at least will seem worse near the ceilings for that reason.

More insulation will dramatically help that and make it so the rooms stay warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.
Another good thing you might look at is a power vent for the attic, they have solar powered as well as AC powered and they are not expensive, I think mine was around $69 with the louvers and screen to put it in the gable wall to replace the usual screen that's there.

Some people dont like them and feel the soffit vents are plenty, and some love them, in my case I noticed a dramatic difference in the summer with the vent fan installed, the difference was especially noticed on the days when it was near 100 degrees, and here in Iowa it can be 100 degrees with 90% or more humidity, I've seen it.


The power vent fan with a thermostat will turn it on when the attic is over say 100 degrees and turn it off below that, the fan helps remove the hot air, draws in the cooler air and helps remove humidity that might be caused by moisture in your house working its way into the attic, but none of these things will do much about OUTSIDE humidity.
If your outside is 95 degrees and 90% humidity, more insulation or a fan isnt going to touch the humidity, a vapor barrier in the ceiling would, but that goes UNDER all the insulation, like right under the sheetrock ceiling during construction, a lot harder to put it in later.

The only thing that will reduce summer humidity in the house is your air conditioner, the cold coils condenses the moisture and drains it into a pan, so if you have high humidity and the AC is running, then either it's too small, or your coils or the pan likely need to be totally cleaned out as they may be full of lint and dust and not running efficiently.
If you have a heat pump unit outside, the thing needs to be blasted with a water hose to remove debris, dust, mud, cobwebs, insects, leaves and dirt caught between all the little fins- blocking the air flow makes the AC work harder and be lots less efficient, and you will see more humidity.

So go and check your air conditioning system, both the outside unit and the coils inside and make sure both are completely clean of any dirt, dust, cobwebs, mold/mildew growth, leaves, lint, pet hair etc, make dure the AC condensation DRAIN pan and hose are both clean, and that water will drain out properly, if the hose is plugged up the water sits in the pan, overflows, and also evaporates back into the air, result is more humidity.

I mentioned once that my roughly 1,000 sq ft house is comfortablly cool and low humidity with only a window air conditioner, a little 120 volt, 5200 BTU is all i've ever had in my house the 15 years I've lived here, it's all I've ever needed. Granted, it doesn't pull the rooms down to 65 degrees but I don't like rooms chilled that cold in the summer, 70 or even 75 is fine, but what the air conditioner does extremely well is remove the HUMIDITY, once you remove the humidity to normal levels down from the 90% sauna it might be outside- the heat feels far less "hot" and 75 degrees does not feel like 75 degrees. With higher humidity even 65 can feel humid and uncomfortably warm to some people.
My house gets full sun all day long and a lot of windows have a South facing orientation.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Eq...+vents&lr=&as_brr=3&cd=33#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.advancedenergy.org/buildings/knowledge_library/ventilation/Attic%20Ventilation%20Case%20Studies.pdf

http://epics.ecn.purdue.edu/hfh/_team_documents_web/02_SolarProject_Results/solarresults.htm

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/html/FSEC-GP-171-00/

Gary


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Gary in WA said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=Eq...+vents&lr=&as_brr=3&cd=33#v=onepage&q&f=false


Makes sense if you have old leaky windows and doors AND leave an attic fan on all winter, or have a power roof turbine that turns all the the time, that it will draw warm air OUT of the house into the attic.
That's why smart people put in a power vent that has a thermostat and an on/off switch like I put on mine  My thermostat in the attic is set to 100F
and it usually turns off at night.
At the end of the summer I flipped the power switch to it in my bedroom closet off for the winter.

When you have a power vent you want to be sure to have enough fresh air inlets for the airflow rating of the fan. My main attic has the fan at one end, and large louvers at the other end plus several eave vents.




> Forced attic ventilation is a commonly encouraged technique to reduce residential heat gains from the ceiling. However, even those who are in favor of increased attic ventilation have often warned that the energy consumption associated with the attic fan motor is likely greater than any realized energy savings from its use (Wolfert and Hinrichs, 1974). Also, an early detailed study showed that while forced attic ventilation did reduce cooling energy use, the reduction was quite small and outweighed by the energy consumption of the fan itself (Dutt and Harrje, 1979).


That study from 1974 was almost 40 years ago, of course we can't tell from it what size motor was used, for all we know it was a 1 hp fan.
I can say that my own powered vent uses as I remember a Dayton 1/15th hp direct drive motor, not an airplane engine, so it doesn't use much more than a light fixture or bathroom vent fan when it's actually running.
It turns off at night once the attic is below 100 degrees.
After installing it 2 summers ago I noticed an immediate result, the ceilings no longer radiate warm air down after sunset (the heat soak that happens from a 150-160 degrees hot attic heating up all the insulation during the day, and then that heat soaking downward.)

Remember- insulation does not cool or warm! insulation only SLOWS DOWN the heat/cold transference, so if it's 160 degrees in the attic, the insulation is getting up near that temperature too.
That is why getting as much of that 160 degrees air out, even if you are replacing it with 100 degree August air is a good idea.

I definitely noticed a difference and I feel it's definitely worth the small amount of money it costs to run during the summer day time.

The one drawback is, I can hear the fan running if I am in the front parlor, if I insulated the mounts from the wood it would reduce or eliminate that noise, but since I'm hard of hearing anyway it doesn't bother me, but someone else might want a quieter model, mounting it in a different location, or using rubber isolators on the fan mounts etc.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree, need to be careful when running an attic fan, that the ceiling is air-sealed, passive ventilation supply/exhaust is adequate, and insulation R-value is present for location; http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-...c-Suck-Power-Attic-Ventilators-Are-a-Bad-Idea

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/fans-attic-do-they-help-or-do-they-hurt

Pages 5-7 mentions a FL test in 2000 for a 6% cooling energy savings;http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNHp4qU3vWO1vNceVxn2LqAJmH81PA&cad=rja and brought out some good points on location, insulation, color of roof, etc. have an important part in roof temps rather than ventilation. 

Another, on the same lines; http://www.professionalroofing.net/archives/past/mar02/feature2.asp

Stick with what you have, I wasn't trying to convince you differently, just giving other readers the facts, especially the dangers of not sizing a fan to the area and pulling conditioned air/HVAC exhaust from below.. Another read, for others; http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...o-do-in-the-south/?searchterm=unvented attics

Gary


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## Spot on (Apr 13, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> On a side note, if 15 bags did your entire attic waste high, you must have an extremely small attic.


Your attic access hatch must be quite a doozie if you filled it to waist height.


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## jsbuilders (Apr 13, 2013)

one cut said:


> Your attic access hatch must be quite a doozie if you filled it to waist height.


You box it out and make a foam cover. :thumbsup:


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## Spot on (Apr 13, 2013)

That would be a 3 to 4 foot tall box to climb up through. Thats all im saying.


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## jsbuilders (Apr 13, 2013)

one cut said:


> That would be a 3 to 4 foot tall box to climb up through. Thats all im saying.


Very true, but no ther choice really


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