# Weighted based for shade sail 4x4 post



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Not a chance, well I don't think it will work. I would just use posts with a guy cable down to an anchor in the ground. On the house end I would go thru the fascia but continue thru to a bracket on a ceiling joist.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

I think you're right. In my mind I was comparing it to those portable basketball nets with weighted bases. Well, it appears that those bases are 500 lbs+ of water/sand/whatever filler. Just a little bit more weight than the 150 lbs planned for the shade sail post haha.

We're probably going to return the shade sail and just go with a permanent gazebo type structure instead.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

dtbingle said:


> I think you're right. In my mind I was comparing it to those portable basketball nets with weighted bases. Well, it appears that those bases are 500 lbs+ of water/sand/whatever filler. Just a little bit more weight than the 150 lbs planned for the shade sail post haha.
> 
> We're probably going to return the shade sail and just go with a permanent gazebo type structure instead.


I don't think there is anything wrong with the sail, I just think they should be labelled at what pull will rip it so you would just make attachments greater than that number. So in a big wind you loose the sail and not the fascia of whatever.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

I have sail shades on my back patio as well. I have them attached more permanently though. I got them at Costco and they are 7' x 13'.

Instead of using just the 2 points to connect them to the house, I put a a thin piece of wood along the short end and wrapped the end of the shade sail around it and screwed it in with a washer head screw. I then attach this to the soffitt. 

On the other end, I strung wire cable between some 2x4's I attached to some fence posts about 14' out from the house. I attached the sail shade to the cable using some clips and braided nylon rope. And I held it to the side to keep it tight using cam jams. I used the 2 corner attachments on this end. 

I was going to use eye hooks on the house side but I couldn't find the grommets I needed to use. You may want to consider that for your house side connection. 

For your yard posts, you need to provide anchor them. Also, you need to put them at an angle, not directly out from the house to provide tension. Here are some anchors you can leave in the lawn and just clip them to the post. 



This is the camjam I use to tighten up the shade. It would work well to connect to the ground stake as well.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Those are some good ideas. Could add the 4x4 posts on the corner and set in the planter pots, but then additionally anchor those posts with the screw-in ground anchors you posted. Or like your setup, I could attach two corners to the house, extend a cable ~15' to shed for the third corner, but then the fourth would need a post or something else installed, which may look odd if it's a single post at the edge of the patio haha.

I'll have to think on this some. The shade sail was primarily meant to be a temporary thing for our backyard wedding. However, it's ending up to be more work/$$ than intended and to be more permanent. Kind of leaning towards a 10x12'ish metal gazebo and anchor it into the patio. For a permanent structure, we'd much rather have a gazebo opposed to a shade sail, but then again it's also a lot more $$.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

Keep the shade sail and use that over the gazebo. You can pull it across the gazebo's top when more shade is needed. 

Or you can cut into strips and run it between the "joists". If you want to be really fancy, mount it to a dowel with a pulley on it and put a rope on it and attach the shade to a guide wire. You can pull it down as much as you need to and when you don't need it, you can wind it back in. The roller portion can be mounted at the top or bottom, which ever works better. 

The same applies to if you want to keep it whole. Attach it the top put a long closet rod at the bottom and attach a pulley on the end and wind it up and down. 

That way you keep the breeze, don't have a metal roof transferring heat and have some natural light filtering through.


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## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

you could 'sink' some 5" rigid pipe in the ground (top of pipe even with grade) then insert the length of 4" rigid into the 'ground sleeves' that have eyehooks at the top, fasten your sail, and bam! safe. then the next day, remove the support posts, and cap or cover the ground sleeves so the don't fill with debris. - you could even cover them with those pots you were going to fill with concrete....


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## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

Just set two 6x6 posts in the ground spaced exactly far apart for a hammock to hook to on to. Then, leave it tall enough for the sail to anchor to. A two fer one project.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Hahaha great idea!

This patio covering project is evolving......

We're looking at this 16x12 pergola instead of a metal framed gazebo due to available sizes and cost. The 16x12 wooden pergola would also allow us to install the shade sail. This is the one we're looking at:









A couple questions though about the pergola on our existing patio slab. The slab is 4" thick with wire mesh with an assumed compressive strength of 3000 psi. The pergola weighs ~1700 lbs with 6 posts, meaning just under 300 lbs on each 6x6 post. It comes with surface mount post brackets. I'm thinking that using concrete anchors to the existing 4" slab would be fine. It seems the main issue with NOT digging down 42" to frost line and pouring a footing is 1) wind uplift and lateral force, 2) freeze/thaw heave.

The total weight/down force is not a problem. As far as uplift from wind, the top is not solid and would minimize the force on the pergola. Additionally, it's shielded by the house on one side, sunroom partially on the other, a full tree line on the side of the property, and a hill on another side of the property. Even in really bad/windy storms, it doesn't get extreme gusts on the patio. As far as frost heave, does it really matter if it's moving on top of the patio as the patio moves during freeze/thaw cycles? What's the worst that can happen?

Thoughts?

Layout


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

As long as you are not tying it to a fixed object like a house, some frost movement would not matter. It would just be a matter of trusting the slab or not. It sounds like you are already having that argument with yourself, so you don't need much help with that.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

Will it all fit on your patio? If so, then as long as it isn't attached to your house go for it. 

If you want to save on money and weight, you don't need that top layer of boards if you are going to use the sail shade.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> As long as you are not tying it to a fixed object like a house, some frost movement would not matter. It would just be a matter of trusting the slab or not. It sounds like you are already having that argument with yourself, so you don't need much help with that.


Perfect. Time to get the coin out to help make the decision.

What about the type of pergola wood? Any recommendations? Not sure the difference between ac2 treated and premium cedartone.

Menards has:
AC2 treated $1550
Premium cedartone $1450
Western red cedar $2500


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## KPDMinc (Nov 7, 2016)

dtbingle said:


> Perfect. Time to get the coin out to help make the decision.
> 
> What about the type of pergola wood? Any recommendations? Not sure the difference between ac2 treated and premium cedartone.
> 
> ...


....and by 'coin' you mean wife, riiiight?!?!? haha


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

dtbingle said:


> Perfect. Time to get the coin out to help make the decision.
> 
> What about the type of pergola wood? Any recommendations? Not sure the difference between ac2 treated and premium cedartone.
> 
> ...


Not sure, 30 years ago they used to add some chemical to the mix that turned the green treatment brown. If it is just a stain I would stay with the AC2


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

AC2 treated lumber is rated for ground contact. You can bury it directly in the ground. 

Cedar tone treated lumber is meant for above ground. You need to have it raised above ground, like on a deck. For your posts, you need to put a base on the bottom to connect it to the concrete, this will raise it up so that it is not in direct contact. 

This is what I am talking (I grabbed it from the Menard's website):


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

KPDMinc said:


> ....and by 'coin' you mean wife, riiiight?!?!? haha


Exactly haha.



Nealtw said:


> Not sure, 30 years ago they used to add some chemical to the mix that turned the green treatment brown. If it is just a stain I would stay with the AC2


That's what it looks like.

*AC2 Treated - $1540.61*
Color/Finish - AC2 Treated
Material - AC2 Treated Wood

*Premium CedarTone - $1479.57*
Color/Finish - AC2 Cedartone Premium
Material - CedarTone Treated

You would think that the "cedar" brown finish would be more than bare AC2. Assuming the Premium CedarTone is just stained AC2.

Edit: Ahh that makes sense. What are those bases for cedar posts called on menards site?

Any experience on maintenance, durability, and longevity of AC2 treated vs. western red cedar?


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

They are called: (drum roll please....)

MiTek® 6" x 6" Gold Coat 2-Sided Post Anchor

Just click on it and you will be taken to the item. There are less expensive options but the gold may work better for your situation. 

One other piece of advice, treat the cut ends with a preservative like Thompson's water seal. The fresh ends will suck in moisture unless re-treated. You can also get a semi-transparent stain that will also do the job. 

After awhile, the wood will need cleaning and restaining, ask the guy's at Menard's when they recommend to restain and what product to use. But don't pressure wash it. Get deck-cleaner and just scrub it and rinse it off.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

ktownskier said:


> One other piece of advice, treat the cut ends with a preservative like Thompson's water seal. The fresh ends will suck in moisture unless re-treated. You can also get a semi-transparent stain that will also do the job.
> 
> After awhile, the wood will need cleaning and restaining, ask the guy's at Menard's when they recommend to restain and what product to use. But don't pressure wash it. Get deck-cleaner and just scrub it and rinse it off.


Good advice.

Would you go with the AC2 or pay the premium for western red cedar?


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

No need for AC2, I would probably go for the cedar toned treated lumber. 

But if money were no problem, the western red cedar is wonderful as is redwood. 

While any wood can warp, pressure treated seems to be more prone to warping, bending, etc.. But, I still would probably use it and I do use it, especially for under the deck or for framing or anywhere moisture or insects can get at it.


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

ktownskier said:


> No need for AC2, I would probably go for the cedar toned treated lumber.
> 
> But if money were no problem, the western red cedar is wonderful as is redwood.
> 
> While any wood can warp, pressure treated seems to be more prone to warping, bending, etc.. But, I still would probably use it and I do use it, especially for under the deck or for framing or anywhere moisture or insects can get at it.


Do the end grains and cut edges need to be resealed when using the western red cedar or only when using the treated lumbers? Do the post bases anchor on the patio need to be raised at all or are the included post bases fine (here)?

When you say the western red cedar is nice, what are the advantages over the others? Aside from being less prone to warping/cracking like the treated variants, I do see that it's lighter at ~1000 lbs vs. 1700 lbs. The reddish tint is also a nice tone, but doesn't all cedar weather to a "greyish" tone and require restaining like the other types?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The last timber framing we did, they uses a natural coloured stain with an insecticide in it. They had all the wood stained before we touched it and we stained every new cut wood. Their hope was all the wood would be protected where they would not be able to stain it after assembling it. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-1-1-5-oz-Advanced-Insecticide-Paint-Additive-76904M/301078000


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Nealtw said:


> The last timber framing we did, they uses a natural coloured stain with an insecticide in it. They had all the wood stained before we touched it and we stained every new cut wood. Their hope was all the wood would be protected where they would not be able to stain it after assembling it.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-1-1-5-oz-Advanced-Insecticide-Paint-Additive-76904M/301078000


Was this treated lumber that you applied stain/insecticide sealer after each cut or something like western red cedar with natural moisture/insect resistance?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

dtbingle said:


> Was this treated lumber that you applied stain/insecticide sealer after each cut or something like western red cedar with natural moisture/insect resistance?


No it was fir and or cedar but not treated


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Is there a clear sealer only to apply to the cut edges of western red cedar that would keep the appearance consistent with the rest of the non-sealed wood faces?


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

Pulled the trigger on the premium cedartone pergola. Modified their 12x16 plans to 14x16 to better fit our patio.

Question on leveling though. Being that this is going to be surface mounted to the existing patio slab, what's the best way to level it given the patio slope for drainage? Or will it even matter?

In the 14' direction, posts are roughly 10' apart with 1.25" of elevation change.
In the 16' direction, posts are roughly 13' apart with 1.50" of elevation change.

This equates to roughly 0.75 degree off the 90 vertical, which means a 3/4 - 1" sway at the top of the 8' posts (if my math is correct).


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

There are clear sealers that you can use for cut edges. And yes, you would use it for any type of wood for exterior projects. Just to be safe. 

If you want the Pergola to be level across the beams, you can cut the posts off at the bottom or the top. 

There won't be any sway, but it won't look level when viewed form a distance. 

It won't be a problem, other than aesthetically, but it would bug me. So, you need to figure out how much to cut off of each post to account for the lean. 

The pergola is off in two directions, length and width. 1.25" in width and 1.5" in length. So if you want to correct it, you have to pick a point and then cut the rest of the posts accordingly. 










Looking at the picture above, I am going to use the ones in the foreground as the outside edge and the ones in the background as the ones closest to the house. 

The 16' width is from the outside to the house. And it slopes an inch and a half from front to back. 
The 14' length is along the edges (house and outside) and slopes an inch and a quarter from right to left. (I hope I got that right.)

To make the structure level, using the post on the screen left and along the outside edge, that will be your tallest post. And the post closest to the house in the opposite corner will be your shortest. 

The inside posts will need to be cut 1.5" to account for the drop in elevation change. 
The middle post will need to be cut an additional 3/4" and the posts opposite from the 8' post will need to be cut an additional 1.25".

Post 1 8' 8' no cut. 
Post 2 directly back 7' 10 1/2" cut 1.5"
Post 3 middle front, 7' 11 1/4" cut 3/4"
Post 4 middle back. 7' 9 3/4" cut 2 1/4"
Post 5 near right, 7' 10 1/5" cut 1 1/4"
Post 6 near right back 7' 9 1/4" cut 2 3/4"

I hope I have the direction correct and this makes sense. If not, let me know and I will try and make it clearer.

Another option is to just live with it or to shim it up from the bottom using metal shims but, I would start in the middle. 

Ktown


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

You have it dead on. Your numbers are almost identical to what I calculated as well. Just cut the bottoms to match making the inside corner between the sunroom and house the shorter (highest elevation). My other thought was to just install the posts at whatever angle they are, and then mount the roof structure to be level. Hopefully the inch off vertical won’t be too noticeable on the posts.

I’m siding with you though, if it’s at all noticeable, it will bother me as well haha.

Sounds like a plan though! Thanks for the advice/support. Will try to post pictures up in here once it’s done!


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## dtbingle (Jul 19, 2017)

A bit late on posting this but......finished product!










The billion 2x2 purlins on the top seemed like it took an eternity to install. I ended up just installing the 6x6 posts at their original just-over-8' lengths and then using a string and line level to figure out where to screw in the beam brackets. Then whatever length of the post stuck out over the top was handsawed flush to the top of the beam.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

If you want to come skiing in Colorado, all you have to do to pay your room and board is to come and build one for me. :biggrin2: And you too Neal


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