# Roof estimate LOL



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

We need a cheerful person to wander into our day----I'll bet he does keep a big crew busy----


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

jjrbus said:


> Want me to hold that tape I say, naw I'll just guess, been doing this a long time ya know:laughing: and he did! (I think he counted shingles?)


I doubt he was counting shingles but counting sticks of metal can get you close. Close enough for an accurate guestimate on a simple roof. 

Same on the siding end, counting rafter tails or soffit panels and downspout pieces can get you in the ballpark. Close enough to shoot you a price, on the simple stuff anyway.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

I count shingles very frequently. If you know the exposure it's simple math. exposure x courses / 12 = rafter length. You'll be accurate to within a half a course.

If it is a 3 tab roof you can also measure width, each tab is usually 1'. 

Actually it is a technique I used to use when selling vinyl siding, you can get a very accurate measurement of the wall height by measuring exposure and counting courses. Again accurate to within a half course. Sometimes I will take a pic and count on my computer, i find it easier than when a customer is yacking in my ear as I am trying to count 60 4" exposures, lol


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

He remembered to call me back last night :thumbup:and wants to hook up today to go over bid.

The only measurement he made was on the rear of the roof from the peak to the edge. I suspect if I was not there he would not have gone up on roof?

I have to call the person who referred him. Doing my due diligence there are two company at the same address. Joe's roofing and joe's roofing and gutters. According to the BBB one has an A+ rating and the other has an F rating, but with only 3 complaints and one unresolved complaint. If he has 38 people working and only 3 complaints with BBB, that is a great record!

Interesting, nobody commented on his shingle choice? JIm


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

A+ rating means he has paid his bill with BBB on time, lol.
As far as shingle choice, OC is a decent brand, especially now that they have stopped the full tar/sealant strip and gone to an intermittent tar/sealant strip. Not my preferred choice though (Certainteed).
Quality Installation is more important than shingle brand. 

Ask Gary if he is using subs or his own 'hand hired" crew.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

38 people for one roof ? I know of an Amish crew that had 27 and they built an entire house from start to finish in 24 hours.

IMO the BBB (Blah,Blah,Blah) is just another source of revenue.The KKK has an A+ business rating so go figure.I don't put much stock in the BBB.

As far as Gary it would be your decision.Personally I don't tell my customers that I get a product super cheap and by the truck load.The customer really does not want to hear the word "Cheap" associated with a product they are relying on to keep themselves and personal property safe and dry from the elements.

Case in point.,you asked online about this product.So realistically the word cheap gave you doubt and you did not even know it.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

BBB ratings are meaningless just look at years in business and complaint history.BCDemon, actually that's not true anymore about the A+ rating, it used to be. However the BBB got sued over this practice. I was surprised to see I have an A+ rating and I most certainly do not pay them any money! 

Also simply google search his name and his company name(s), and see what comes up if he is really bad people will leave lots of negative comments on the various websites. 

OC isn't a terrible shingle. I will install it upon request. However OC floods the market with their 2nds (meaning flawed) materials so be sure you are getting genuine OC material with warranty and not OC 2nds. The guys I know buying OC's by the truck load and I know one roofer and one supplier, buy the 2nds and flood the market. 


Roofmaster, I don't think he has 38 people on one roof, maybe he has 4 crews and an office staff? I wonder for the 38 people though if he's making any money selling cheap roofing. 

Yeah Roofmaster this guy has a totally different approach to sales than I do. Then again Gary and I probably go after a different customer base because there are plenty of people out there who want to hear cheap, and plenty of contractors to fill that niche. The guy's whole approach, while humorous, doesn't seem very professional though.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

The man is 77 I doubt he much cares what people think of him! Age is generally accompanied by freedom from petty concerns. I know mine started about 60.

Of the three bids I have so far he is the most expensive! $7300 vs$7000 vs $6600. He would not budge price wise. Explained to me the difference between Duration shingles and Duration TruDefinition saying be cautious of 2nds and old stock, suggested I be very careful.

Then he told me to call the local big supplier and ask them who they recommend!

So anyhow, 6/12 pitch, rip off and repair up to 2 sheets of 1/2 ply, any additional at $45 sheet material and labor. Renail and repair to code, plus wind mitigation report (important in FL). 90 ft of ridge vent. 

Duration TruDefinition shingles with OC Weatherlock G peel and stick underlayment. All OC accessory's are to be used.

488 Sq Ft of white torch down on flat roof (does not remember brand name).

$7300 I do not have written estimates from other 2 roofers yet?

Opinions, observations, advice, in put and wise cracks greatly appreciated. JIm


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Without the actual square count its difficult to figure price per square.But I can tell you this.The same square footage on a house and materials used in say Orlando or Tallahassee or even Pensacola would be slightly lower just because of the FBC for Miami/Dade.(3 stage inspection)

A $700 spread IMO is a respectable spread.Once you exceed $1000 or more should you start thinking about a scab company.

Florida has some strict codes that I very much appreciate.There are some hack roofers there but the sunshine state makes sure (for the most part) that the laws and codes are enforced and very seldom is a Florida homeowner left holding the bag for a shoddy roof build.

When I was there I seen several roofs torn off because of shoddy workmanship.I would have to say that maybe Gary wants the work because the other competing contractors have yet to submit a valid estimate.

Do contractors ever give estimates on the spot after meeting with the customer ? I have been hearing that quite a bit lately.Why waste your time meeting with them ? First impressions are key.While your with the customer you have their undivided attention.Once you leave that feeling they had for you has somewhat left with you.Now the contractor has left the door open for another contractor to take the project.

My guys and myself give either printed or pre-printed/written estimates(Printers in our trucks)when meeting our customers now and I have to be honest we have a higher percentage of closing.

But would I hire Gary ? Maybe


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for the response. Sq Footage, I cannot believe I missed that!! 

2690 Sq Ft of duration shingles with about 40 ft ? of valley and 90 ft? of ridge+ 488 sq foot of melt down on flat roof

The $6600 bid is from a highly recommended company that put a roof on my house 3 years ago. But that is 3 years ago and things can really change! I do not have a written bid from them yet.

Is there an easy way to make sure they are not using 2nd's or defective shingles?

Thanks much JIm


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

You can get documentation from the contractors supplier stating that they are not seconds or defective ad have full manufacture warranty as described on the packaging

If the square footage is actual without ridge and starters on a gable roof you should be around 30+ and some change and with a hip roof around 31+.

Depending on the ridge cap (Premium packs around 20ish per pack) the bids are decent IMO.I was getting $350-$400 per sq. For 5/12's and that was without any flat work.My determinations have little value in Florida markets since I am no longer there.

But,everytime a hurricane gets close to Florida my customers still call me to make sure I will be there to reroof their houses.I have them calling me from 5 counties so that might be a good thing. :thumbsup:


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

It is not unusual for me to be $2,000 higher than my average competitor. Infact I have come to expect that unless I am bidding against one of the larger companies, I will probably be $2,000 higher on the average sized ranch type house. But I promise I am doing $2,000 more worth of work. You have to forget the price, the price is the LAST thing you should look at. First, quality of materials and scope of work will dictate price! 

I haven't seen these proposals so I can't point out the differences, but if it is not in writing it does not existing, meaning you have one proposal not three. Put them side by side. I will mention what differences my proposals have versus my competitors;

Protections, we do alot to protect the house. It makes the clean up alot easier. Ask your neighbors and friends who have gotten new roofs. The #1 complaint is dirty dirty dirty. Not our jobs, this costs money.

Old roofing nails removed and wood nails resecured. We call this tuning up the roof. Bad things can happen going over old nails. This takes a little extra time and time is money, but you get a better job. Of course we replace rotten wood, but that is an extra indicated on the proposal. FWIW, we charge more than your friend Gary does for rotten wood.

Ice shield, 6' at the gutter lines is pretty much our norm because I actually understand the code. However most guys will install 3' and get away with it. Furthermore we install ice shield in valleys, and pre-flash all areas like chimneys, skylights, pipes, walls, etc... with ice shield. You may be thinking you have no ice so what's the purpose of ice shield. These are the areas most prone to leakage so a little extra insurance is a good thing.

Felt. Most guys use 15, the minimum allowed by code. We used to use 30 Lb, and have since switched to the fiberglass reinforced felt paper. It lays smoother and qualify the customer for extended manufacturer warranty's (which I will discuss later).

Starters, we install a good quality starter. Not only at the bottom edge of the roof, but bleeder courses at the gables/rakes. Extra time extra material = extra money but also extra wind resistance for the customer. 

Shingles, well there is some chit on the market that we have previously discussed. Sounds like Gary is using a good product. I'm not too familiar with OC really, we only install it upon request, but it sounds like he's using their upgraded shingle which will cost more.

Hip and ridge shingles, we use manufacturer matching starter shingles, no longer do we cut our hip and ridge from 3 tab. Not only will the hips wear away faster but they don't always match perfectly in color and then your roof looks like shat. 

Ventilation, most guys repeat the mistakes of the previous roofer. We make sure that there is adequate ventilation. The installation of a few extra vents, which is required in most cases, costs a few extra bucks. But this is the difference between having a manufacturer warranty and not. It is the difference between mold in your attic or not. And in my area also affects various ice concerns such as ice damning and frozen attic condensation.

Flashings are critical to the roof. Many many guys will simply re-use old flashings or even slap them with roofing cement. We replace all old flashings as possible, 99% of the time the flashings gotta go. Not only that, but proper installation of counter flashing seems to be a lost art. We will properly step and raggle our brick counter flashing. Not only does replacing the flashing take time and material, but doing it the right way take more time, time is money. But this is what determines if your roof leaks in 5 years or 20 years. Big difference?

Clean up, because we pride ourselves on the clean up of our jobs (remember the protection) we take a little extra longer than most others with the cleanup.

Modified bitumen, as you said there is a section of flat roof. I would be installing a 3 or 4 ply modified bitumen 20-year rated system. Some guys would install a 2 or even one ply 10 year rated system. This doesn't make sense to me to install a 10 year rated flat roof with a potentially 30 year shingle roof. Does that make sense to anyone else? Also what edge metal and flashings are included, because for me I would have a metal flashing at all outside edges. Learn more about modified bitumen here: http://reliableamerican.us/services/low-slope-roofing.html#ModBit 

Warranty, I include a manufacturer 25 year workmanship guarantee on all my shingle roofs. This varies in price based on the size of the job, but certainly is a minimum of a few hundred bucks. If the customers opts not to have the CertainTeed 5 star warranty, we will stand behind the shingle roof for 10 years. 5 years is the norm. Some guys may be offering 1 or 2 years, the minimum allowed by law.

But we're not done there! Oh no, we inspect every roof for completeness! This is something not every company will do, infact most will not inspect! I will inspect myself or send out another COMPETENT person to inspect the roof. I have preprinted inspection forms which look for more than 50 points on the roof. It happens occasionally that perhaps we forgot some caulking or something, but I check for clean up bushes, grass, window sills, neighbor's yard, gutters. I check for straight eaves, proper overhang at the eaves, straight rakes, proper over hang at the rakes, starters at the eaves and rakes, straight valleys, proper overlap in the valleys, valley is installed in the proper direction so to shed water (lots of valleys get installed backwards), straight hip and ridge, proper exposure on hip and ridge, ridge faces away from prevailing wind to shed wind (lots of ridges get installed backwards), straight shingle rows, proper nail placement, proper nailing pattern, proper nailing depth, flashing details, etc. etc. etc... Like I said it's more than 50 points and this inspection takes about 20-30 minutes on the average roof. Time is money! I once worked for a large company, I was the scheduling manager, they had 10 sub crews working on average each day. The owner once said to me very proudly, "If the customer complains we fix it!" But it didn't make sense to me, and still doesn't. The customer, the one who knows nothing about roofing, is the QC? They might not notice a problem with the roof unless the shingles are upside down (no offense to any home owners  )


So you see I believe in my heart and soul that we are worth more, we are certainly doing alot more for the dollar. And having said all that we are also not the most expensive in the area, just to give you an idea of what kind of spread you can see from companies around here. 

SO why did I spend my time writing all that? Well partially to inflate my ego, but also to show that not all roofs are created equal. There are alot of areas where people can cut corners. Let me say that again, ALOT of areas where people can cut corners. Look at the price of the roof LAST, look at the "Recipe", what you are actually getting first. Again, quality of materials and scope of work will dictate price. 


Now as for Gary not caring what people think about him, I can appreciate that. But he better damned care what his customers think about him or he's losing alot of jobs. If he worked for me, we definitely wouldn't get along with his approach.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

jjrbus said:


> Thanks for the response. Sq Footage, I cannot believe I missed that!!
> 
> 2690 Sq Ft of duration shingles with about 40 ft ? of valley and 90 ft? of ridge+ 488 sq foot of melt down on flat roof
> 
> ...


Based on the information you provided I would be $10-12k.

We just completed an 18 square (1,800 sq ft) shingle + 3 square (300 sq ft) modified roof for $10k.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Thank you for your response. But at $12K you are not getting the job, you will have to sharpen your pencil a bit.

Unlike most people I am a bit annal about some things. The first thing I notice is when a company representative shows up and parks in the middle of my driveway, blocking it, Strike one!

just recieved 2nd bid, estimator told me it would be emailed. At the job he told me it would be $7K, the emailed written estimate is $8,300! Office and estimator must not talk to each other or office does not want job?

The last roof I had installed 3 years ago the contractors were very close in price. I picked the one that presented a highly detailed bid. 

last time what impressed me most in the whole experience was the crew! They showed up and instead of parking in the middle of the drive, they asked where they should park. There was no screaming and yelling, no Hey where the $%&^'s my hammer you AH? No Boom Box's blaring out noise. A group of hardworking respectful men. Real pleasant experience.

JIm


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

First Grumpy how have you been doing.? Second i'm seeing alot of OC's going up in my area. I personal like landmarks.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

jjrbus said:


> Thank you for your response. But at $12K you are not getting the job, you will have to sharpen your pencil a bit.
> 
> Unlike most people I am a bit annal about some things. The first thing I notice is when a company representative shows up and parks in the middle of my driveway, blocking it, Strike one!
> 
> ...


 LOL sharpen the pencil? I wouldn't want the job! I roof for profit, not practice. I've been roofing 14 years. Even at $12k I think it's cheap, not enough to pay my employees for health insurance, vacation time nor paid vacations, which I am guessing you enjoyed your whole career but is pretty much NOT EXISTENT in the roofing industry. Again you're just looking at price and not the recipe. I promise you put what I described above against what they are proposing and you will see the scope of work is much much less. My price is not even close to out of line because if you look at Roof Master his price per square was very much the same as mine, actually more. Heck! I think by the numbers he posted per square, he'd be $12k-15k with the measurements you provided. 


You'll be back in a year complaining that the roof is leaking and the roofer won't come back to fix it or went out of business what ever. How can he honor his warranty at those prices?! We all have to make the bed we sleep in. I'm just trying to help you make your bed a little bit neater. If you are concerned with price over quality then I most certainly am not the person to be helping you make your decision. Upfront investment is all fine and good, but there is something called life cycle price. A properly installed roof using quality materials will be cheaper in the long run (life cycle) than a cheaply installed roof with chit material (upfront investment). 


The 2nd bid is the reason I do not give ball parks. I always forget something I remember about later when I have pen to paper, a cup of hot coffee, and calculator. I knew $7k seemed way too low! Now we're getting to where we should be! remember I said $10-12K, also remember I said I am usually $2k higher, so you see where I am going with this (8+2=10)... When I price a job I make a complete materials list, all the materials and equipment I will need for the job. I then take my best guess as to labor. Using a price per square formula I can get a somewhat accurate ball park, but not always, since no two jobs are ever the same. Sounds like that's what this guy did.


Why wouldn't you hire the same roofer as last time if you had such a great experience with them?


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hey 747, haven't been here in awhile. Doin' as Grumpy as ever.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Thanks for the response.

We are in 2 different markets. In Chi I would never get these prices, in FL you would get very little work at your prices. Your expenses are also much higher. FL has always been known for low labor costs.

I solicited 3 bids, I need to keep people honest and if someone has a ton of work they are going to be high and vicea versa.

The company I used last time finally sent their bid. Last time it was so detailed that it should have set the industry standard. This time the bid is sketchy. Bid states 30 year dimensional shingles, no brand, no name, nothing! Peel and stick underlayment, no brand name nothing! No details. He did stick to his price of $6600. So we will be emailing back and forth until I am satisfied or I will use Gary. ( I am sure I can beat Gary down a bit on price)

I am not trying to appear smart or knowledgeable, I am grateful for the people who are willing to freely share their knowledge and experience with others so that we do not become the victims of unethical operators. 

With all due respect JIm


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Good to see you Grumpy!

Yes, I would have been at least $11K.

I looked at one the other day like that fellow did and quoted a price. He said "I won't nickel and dime you either." I said "I was sure of that, I'm getting that out of the way right now!" :laughing: "I assure you I'll be higher than many others!"
"When can you start?" were his next words. (I wonder if I shoud send him a proposal?)

Thing is, we're known for low labor rates here, at least certain companies are. :yes:

(Not poking at you Jim, just commenting because your first post made me look at your address to see if it was me. It sure sounded like me, except for the part about actually receiving a written proposal.)


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

jjrbus said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> We are in 2 different markets. In Chi I would never get these prices, in FL you would get very little work at your prices. Your expenses are also much higher. FL has always been known for low labor costs.
> 
> ...


 I disagree, only because I know guys who charge the samea s me in Florida. Did you see Roofmaster's post? He charges more than me and occasionally works in Florida. It's not really worth arguing further though, I agree labor rates do vary regionally but not by 43%. 

Good luck with your roofing project, I see that I can offer no further assistance. 


Edit: ...and I am offended that you take pride in the fact that you intend to "beat down the price" of a hard working contractor. SHAME ON YOU JIM! SHAME SHAME. I think you are the one that is unethica;l, and someone here needs to give Gary a call and warm him about you immediately! Not only do I see I can't assist you further, but I see that I REFUSE to assist you further. Price shopper <patooey!>


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

When I saw 26 square at 6600, I realized how glad I am that I don't roof in Florida. Is life really that cheap there?

Hopefully you are getting a quality roof done since from what I understand, this is your second roof in 3 years.

Like Grumpy, the roofs we install are the last ones that person will need unless they spend more than 50 years at their home.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

Man this thread really boiled my blood! I'm Effin Pissed!


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

Grumpy said:


> Man this thread really boiled my blood! I'm Effin Pissed!


It shouldn't. There are all types of customers and contractors. I've won jobs where I was the most expensive and lost jobs where I was cheaper.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Grumpy said:


> Man this thread really boiled my blood! I'm Effin Pissed!


How dare you sir!!!

What give you the right to be in business for profit!! Don't you understand that you didn't build that business.

:laughing:

I couldn't get it out without spitting on my computer.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

I am buying another house with 27 year old roof.

Could a roof in FL last 50 years? People are impressed with this one at 27 years old. 

Does not matter, you will not get a house with a 30 year old roof insured in Florida, except maybe metal. 

Unethical? This is America a capitalistic society, any company is just as free to tell me to go pound salt as I am to tell them to lump it!

Feel free to give Gary a call, he is a smart man and knows what and who he is dealing with, remember he has been doing this for 50+ years! I am not hazing a fraternity pledge here.

JIm


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Jim,

27 years out of a FL asphalt roof is very good. Depends on the color range but that is about as good as can be expected.


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## JWilliams (Sep 22, 2010)

im in the panhandle and me laying the shingles i am going getting 30 bucks a square and thats up to a 8 pitch. after that it goes up alittle more.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Man this thread really boiled my blood! I'm Effin Pissed!


 Are you a veteran? JIm


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

JWilliams850 said:


> im in the panhandle and me laying the shingles i am going getting 30 bucks a square and thats up to a 8 pitch. after that it goes up alittle more.


Yeah as an employee, right?


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

Just for 5hits and giggles, I can offer the same materials as Grumpy, with a top notch installation, for $6700 and still put well over $1000 in my pocket per day and be home by 3pm. IN MY REGION!
But I can buy those materials for around $100 p/sq. I know they pay a lot more in Florida, plus you have all those inspections.


JWilliams850, I don't know how many Roofing Company owners I have heard (online) call ME a low baller because my BOSS pays me $30 p/sq. Glad to hear I'm not the only one getting hosed, sorry 
You would think if companies are charging $350 p/sq the guy that actually installs the roof (without leaks) would at least get around $50 p/sq. But then capitalism kicks in, and the company profits are more important than paying top dollar for quality installation. But boy oh boy, leak a roof and they are ALL OVER YOU!


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

ParagonEx said:


> It shouldn't. There are all types of customers and contractors. I've won jobs where I was the most expensive and lost jobs where I was cheaper.


I agree. On jobs I have done (different field) I have had plenty of push back on price. It is normal and just business. If the price offered is too low, I'll pass. If they can find someone who can do the work at that price, good for them. I also do the same.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

jjrbus said:


> Are you a veteran? JIm


My one regret in my life is that I never enlisted in the Marines. My whole childhood that's what I wanted to be, sadly when the time came I chickened out. Looking back I really really really wish I had enlisted


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> My one regret in my life is that I never enlisted in the Marines. My whole childhood that's what I wanted to be, sadly when the time came I chickened out. Looking back I really really really wish I had enlisted


 I spent 4 years in the USMC, when I came home from a camping trip to Viet Nam I was F ing pissed, every body and everything just set me off. Not a good way to live life. 

Several years in therapy and some Zoloft and now very little upsets me. I was hoping you were a vet so I could suggest you go to the VA. JIm


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

No, I'm just a high strung individual. Notice the name. I'm also passionate about what I do and know how incredibly hard it is, and know how underpaid most people in this profession really are. And when I hear people talking about sharpening the pencil and talking someone down on price it is very frustrating because it takes away from my chosen profession and shows how little respect people have in today's society for people who choose to work with their hands. That's what sets me off. 

Do you ask your doctor for a discount?


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Grumpy said:


> Do you ask your doctor for a discount?


Yes. If you have HMO insurance, your insurance company already has and gotten one. If you don't have insurance, then you request the non-insurance rate. Typically, it's 40% off the billed rate. Still more than most HMO's, but a significant discount non-the-less. 

My son fell off my insurance due to age and needed an MRI. That discount brought the bill from $1000 to a little less than $600. The doctors visits were also cut. 

It's just business. They could say no and I could go elsewhere. Neither have a gun to our heads to accept anything.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

I am not dealing with independent roofer's they are large company's, I am sure there are independent contractors in the area, but I do not know how to find them. They are probably subbing for these company's and HD and Lowe's etc. 

Gary the estimator is probably 1 of 3 or 4 estimators at that company. 

Yes I will negotiate with Doctor's and hospitals. Those I go after unmercifully, I go right for the throat! 

Tried it with my dentist, he in a very sophisticated way told me to pound salt:laughing: I can respect that.

My bids are not apples to apples, the $6600 bid did not include the 400 sq ft of flat roof. But he is using Certainteed Landmark 30yr shingles which many here seem to like?
JIm


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## knotquiteawake (Mar 15, 2012)

jjrbus said:


> Thank you for your response. But at $12K you are not getting the job, you will have to sharpen your pencil a bit.
> 
> Unlike most people I am a bit annal about some things. The first thing I notice is when a company representative shows up and parks in the middle of my driveway, blocking it, Strike one!
> 
> ...


Contractors take note, I am pretty much the same way! Professionalism and respect go a long way. A detailed estimate lets me do some research and see the methods you will be using. And stupid little things like not parking in my driveway as well make a difference. Have a price far above the average price also knocks you out of the race for me. It could really be worth the extra cost, but I usually don't have the money to blow on it. 
Also helpful are guys like OP, who are friendly and exude confidence and knowhow. Its very comforting when faced with a guy who just seems to know his stuff like its nothing.


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

bcdemon said:


> Just for 5hits and giggles, I can offer the same materials as Grumpy, with a top notch installation, for $6700 and still put well over $1000 in my pocket per day and be home by 3pm. IN MY REGION!
> But I can buy those materials for around $100 p/sq. I know they pay a lot more in Florida, plus you have all those inspections.
> 
> JWilliams850, I don't know how many Roofing Company owners I have heard (online) call ME a low baller because my BOSS pays me $30 p/sq. Glad to hear I'm not the only one getting hosed, sorry
> You would think if companies are charging $350 p/sq the guy that actually installs the roof (without leaks) would at least get around $50 p/sq. But then capitalism kicks in, and the company profits are more important than paying top dollar for quality installation. But boy oh boy, leak a roof and they are ALL OVER YOU!


Out of curiosity, how many days would it take you to complete 26 square on your own?

I would be looking at around 4K for materials and the dumpster. That leaves $2600. If this is a simple straight forward one layer, I figure it would take minimum of 32 man hours (4 guys an 8 hour day). 

Those 4 guys, after burdens and everything else cost me $107 a hour so there is $856 dollars. Now we have left $1744. Since I sold the job, I get a commission on it (I pay myself personally 10% of the gross sale) so there is another $660.

Now we are already down to $1084 and I haven't even started with overhead, company profit, owner profit, the warranty fund, etc.

After all is said and done, if there are any problems, we won't even have enough money to go back to complete the repairs.

The reason why so many small roofing companies fail is because the owners (while they may be the best roofers) are terrible businessmen. If you sell the job, you get a commission. If you work on the job, you get paid hourly, how many guys don't do this?

Occasionally after I see another companies quote I just think to myself man, how long will these guys be around? Personally, I haven't been in business very long - we are going into our fourth year. I already don't have enough fingers or toes (and yes I have them all) to count the number of companies in my line of work that have already come and gone.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

I go roof a 50 square 2 layer fire station today and look what happens,,,,What a great read.This has to be one of the best post,replies I have read.All over the place and totally off topic but some very cool stuff.

I am very proud to say that I was enlisted.I was a Sgt and my M.O.S was 11B10 Army Infantry.,Ground pounder,,bullet stopper etc..,Airborne and Air Assault.Veteran of Operation Desert Storm.

Grumpy I think you would have made a fine Drill Sgt. You have that way of getting under peoples skin but still able to prove a point. :thumbsup:


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

I am a experienced bullet stopper! Viet Nam was a beatch but watching you guys in the Desert, made VN seem like a cake walk. If you or any of your friends have any issues go to hadit.com there motto is no one left behind, not on a jungle trail, not on a desert trail, not on a paper trail! JIm


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

jjrbus said:


> I am a experienced bullet stopper! Viet Nam was a beatch but watching you guys in the Desert, made VN seem like a cake walk. If you or any of your friends have any issues go to hadit.com there motto is no one left behind, not on a jungle trail, not on a desert trail, not on a paper trail! JIm


You have my respect being a Vietnam Vet.I only wish the Vietnam brothers were shown the same respect and patriotism the vets are shown today.I didn't see a whole lot.You fought a very devoted adversary.Like I said much respect to you.Thank you for your participation and contribution for my freedom.But as its already been said., "Freedom Isn't Free"


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

ParagonEx said:


> Out of curiosity, how many days would it take you to complete 26 square on your own?


26 sq, 1 layer, 6/12 with a center dormer on the front for entertainment purposes. With no hiccups.

Under 25 hours, by myself.

I roof by the square, not the hour. From my employer I would make almost $1100 @ $42 p/sq. ($12 tear off + $30 install)
$662 @ $26.50 per hour. But then again, at the hourly rate it may take a while longer.

But everything goes by region, like I said I buy Landmarks for under $60 sq. I have heard of guys in the US paying over $100 sq for them.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

$662 doesn't include anything for workman's compensation, for general liability, for federal unemployment, for state unemployment, for FICA all of which in my area adds up to 75% burdens. It doesn't include anything for tool over head, vehicular over head, office overhead, sales rep commission, paid vacations, paid holidays, paid sick days, 401k, health insurance, etc... 

Let's be serious here. There is such a thing as working for wages and running a business. If you're working for wages, even if you're selling and installing your own jobs, you're just killing the whole industry and would probably actually be better off as an employee. 

LIke I said I expect regional differences, but if APPLES to APPLES there won't be 40% differences. BCDemon it would be collusion for me to suggest you raise your prices on your side jobs, but if not less than 4 reputable contractors here stated the price would be $10k+ and you come in at less than $7k, SOMETHING is wrong. I'm just asking you before you price your next side job to consider all the variables involved to run a legitimate roofing company. 

No doubt from reading many of your posts you have the skill set and knowledge to specify and install a proper roofing system, but maybe just rethink your pricing and make sure you are not shooting yourself in the foot on your side jobs. And if you are "cheating" on your side jobs like most guys do on their side jobs, then please by all means just stop it now. 

Sorry, I'm not meaning to pick on you directly, just trying to make the point that anyone who tries to be in business and pricing jobs had better really know their numbers.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

I am being looked down on for shopping price and negotiating. Keep in mind I am not setting the starting point of the negotiations the contractors are! JIm


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

jjrbus said:


> I am being looked down on for shopping price and negotiating. Keep in mind I am not setting the starting point of the negotiations the contractors are! JIm


 I don't believe you are Jim. Not by me, and I'm sure not by the others. :no: Grumpy was pointing out that some bidders don't know their own numbers. Many deal in cash for instance, don't even pay true dues for it. They're happy to do two on the books and 3 off and pocket the rest. Those and others can and do offer very low prices. Not a biggie to me, but it's what happens around here.
No reflection on you at all.


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## Grumpy (Dec 12, 2003)

jjrbus said:


> I am being looked down on for shopping price and negotiating. Keep in mind I am not setting the starting point of the negotiations the contractors are! JIm


Yes I am looking down on you Jim, the others might not be but I most definitely am. I do believe I may be saying what some are thinking. Or maybe I am just an Ahole, no I am an Ahole, but there is more to it than that. 

Yes as I look down on all price shoppers, not just you. It has nothing to do with you as a person. it has to do with your obvious disrespect for my chosen profession. 


Start of negotiations? What negotiation? Negotiation? Gary had it right. The price is the price. Do you go to best buy to buy your brand new tv and ask for a discount. The price is the price. Can't afford a 52" buy a 46" TV. Can't afford a rolls royce, buy a huyndia. 

What if your boss came to you and said, I know I have been paying you $Y per hour but I think you are worth less, so now I am going to pay you $x per hour. You wouldn't be to happy about that would you? Why would you do that to another person? I state here and now I get very offended when people ask me for discounts. It means they don't believe I am worth what I am asking. I believe I am worth what I am asking, I am not padding anything really. People very seldom ever ask me for discounts. And when they do, I take something away. 

Want a discount? save 2% if paying by cash or check, no credit cards. I am losing nothing since I mark the credit card fee into the job. I WILL NOT cut my profit. 

Want a discount? I'll knock out the 5 star 25 year workmanship warranty. The new warranty will be less than half the years either 6 or 10. I will NOT cut my profit.

I can drop the felt quality, drop the ice shield quality, drop the shingle quality, but I most certainly WILL NOT take money from my kdis college fund so you can save a few bucks. Not gonna happen. 



The only comfort I get is when cheap people hire someone else and call me back to fix their mistakes. Pay me now or pay me later.


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## smalpierre (Mar 1, 2012)

bcdemon said:


> Just for 5hits and giggles, I can offer the same materials as Grumpy, with a top notch installation, for $6700 and still put well over $1000 in my pocket per day and be home by 3pm. IN MY REGION!
> But I can buy those materials for around $100 p/sq. I know they pay a lot more in Florida, plus you have all those inspections.
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't get a sub to touch a roof for $30 / sq unless it was an overlay. And if it leaks yes - I'm pissed, and they have to fix it.


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## imautoparts (Oct 10, 2012)

The bottom line is that these old guys earn their reputations, then the wisest among us pay whatever they choose to charge.

In a world of $45,000 pickup trucks who cares as long as the job is done right? When it comes to "senior" experts in any given field, you pay what you pay. It is generally worth it in peace of mind, but you could always roll the dice on your own judgement of human beings to spend less on the young guy.

But if you're wrong, you're screwed. That's why the old guys can charge so much.


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## smalpierre (Mar 1, 2012)

To add to Grumpy's post, my price is my price. If you want me to drop ice and water shield, or reuse old beat up flashings to save a couple hundred bucks, find someone else because I'm not going to warranty a roof that isn't done to my specs. In general, a customer that's willing to sacrafice those kind of things that you won't have a chance to do again until next time you tear it off to save a few hundred on a $10k job are the most difficult to work for also.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Wait a minute, I'm deeply attached to my money, not stupid! I am not going to reuse flashing, but unless it was negotiated it is going in my scrap pile, not yours! 

I actually took a BIG cut in pay, like a third, I had no choice. But I was over paid anyway and I have simple tastes and never spent as much as I made. But still not very pleasant. 

I do not view you as an Ahole, you are a person of principles who knows what he is worth and demands it. I can respect that. We would never work well together, but I might recommend you to someone who needed a good trust able contractor. 

Some people like to play golf, I like to negotiate and I'm damned good at it. And on rare occasion I get my clock cleaned, can't win them all. 
JIm


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

imautoparts said:


> The bottom line is that these old guys earn their reputations, then the wisest among us pay whatever they choose to charge.
> 
> In a world of $45,000 pickup trucks who cares as long as the job is done right? When it comes to "senior" experts in any given field, you pay what you pay. It is generally worth it in peace of mind, but you could always roll the dice on your own judgement of human beings to spend less on the young guy.
> 
> But if you're wrong, you're screwed. That's why the old guys can charge so much.


Actually, that isn't correct. I'm a senior expert in my field. I have 35 yrs in my field as well. But, that doesn't equate to "pay what you pay." The moment there is someone with even close to my skills at a lower pay grade (usually in China or India), I'm gone and I know it. My pay has been cut significantly as well. It wasn't how Grumpy described it, but rather no raises in 10 yrs and pick up the workload of the 2 others that lost their jobs. So, more work by alot, less pay by inflation. 

My best friend is an master carpenter and he doesn't see steady work due to wages. Some years he has work, and other he doesn't. The pay scales don't always line up with what companies will pay for labor. 

I can tell from Grumpy's answers to various posts on the site he is very knowledgeable and probably an excellent person to hire. But, if I can't afford to hire him I will look at a more competitive bid. 

I recently hired a company to replace my windows and siding. We did quite a bit of negotiation on price. It was a pretty large bid (31 windows, 16 sq siding,4 gable ends, 3 shed dormers, 510 lin ft trim/sofit/fascia, 3 doors installed as well. They needed the work, I needed to hit a price point so it was affordable. We worked out a deal that both of us were satisfied. I picked them over higher bids and a big box store that was way more. This company was not new to the business, but had 20 yrs of experience, a stack of references, repeat customers and high praise. But, with unemployment over 10% in this area, everyone is trying to get by. The job they did was simply excellent and the attention to detail superb. They were happy to have the business and I was happy to be able to afford to hire them. 

Many experienced contractors with excellent reputations will also work with customers on price. I am glad that Grumpy has enough business that he doesn't have to do that. But, I made the right choice with my selection at a much better price.


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

Grumpy said:


> LIke I said I expect regional differences, but if APPLES to APPLES there won't be 40% differences. BCDemon it would be collusion for me to suggest you raise your prices on your side jobs, but if not less than 4 reputable contractors here stated the price would be $10k+ and you come in at less than $7k, SOMETHING is wrong. I'm just asking you before you price your next side job to consider all the variables involved to run a legitimate roofing company.


But you guys that est. 10K don't live in Kamloops BC. You would never get someone to pay $380 p/sq for a basic re-roof. The going rate around here starts around $250. A lot of other "Chuck in a Truck" businesses charge way less, and pay way less. Hell I had a company beat me on my friends house @ $180 per sq. I gave him a smoking deal at $200 p/sq because we've known each other for years.

But like I said, when I hear guys talk about paying $100 p/sq just for shingles, then it's easy to understand a $350 p/sq quote. I pay 40% less than that.
On the flip side, if I can make one of my regular 2 week paychecks in 3 days, I won't feel bad about it at all.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

Did your friend hire the other company? Even as cheap as I am I would hire my long term friend!
JIm


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

jjrbus said:


> Did your friend hire the other company? Even as cheap as I am I would hire my long term friend!
> JIm


Oh no, I did it. Even gave him a cheaper price because he got up and helped me lol.


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## jjrbus (Aug 28, 2009)

That's odd, my friends charge extra when I want to help:laughing: JIm


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