# Paint and Primer in One? Some Insight



## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey Folks
I managed to secure access to an online article that gives some authoritative insight on the issue. It's an excellent article, and Brushjockey will be pleased that it supports his assertion that primers are problem solvers. Though the pros know the value and necessity of primer, less knowledgable HO's and Diy'ers assume that primers are primers and any will do. Not so. 
The permission to have this article available to us is generously provided by Paint and Decorating Retailers Magazine. The article is available to members/subscibers only, so we owe them thanks for giving Diychatroom members free access to help us understand this issue. Thanks to Diane Capuano, executive editor and author of the article. Please support them. 

Go to my blog to find the link.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

thanks, good stuff :thumbsup:


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Good score JS! 
Good to have a little industry back up to what us yucks in the field say.
This should be made a sticky.
I know you are also driving some hits to your site- don't want a direct link here?

The only thing that the article says the all in one can do is go over previously painted walls. Doesn't even say anything about bare rock! 
Then goes on to talk about 50 primers. LOL

One thing I take exception to:

They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,
Right after saying this 
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”
Fact: Paints hide better. 

Other than that- right on.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Brushjockey said:


> They say this
> Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
> especially over dark colors, is just one of
> the things that they do better than paint,
> ...


I agree with you on that.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

In a nutshell primers need a certain percentage of this and that ingedient to perform as a primer. Paints need certain percentage of other ingredients to perform as topcoats. Mixing them together dilutes the required percentages making them poor performers in both categories.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Matthewt1970 said:


> In a nutshell primers need a certain percentage of this and that ingedient to perform as a primer. Paints need certain percentage of other ingredients to perform as topcoats. Mixing them together dilutes the required percentages making them poor performers in both categories.


 
^^^^^Might just be the best quote on this topic, EVER!


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> Good score JS!
> Good to have a little industry back up to what us yucks in the field say.
> This should be made a sticky.
> I know you are also driving some hits to your site- don't want a direct link here?
> ...


I noticed that too, it was kind of crosscut when I read it. I've never known primers to be superior with coverage. I think it's a great primer, pun intended, for HO's. It's also a nice collection of info on the various new primers out there for the pro. As to a direct link, who, me? :laughing: In time I'll modify the access when I can make some changes. It took me long enough this morning to get what's there up. I'm the blogmaster too. Chrisn's anticipatory wait is over. 
Now it's time to get an official position from the major paint cos.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan said:


> I noticed that too, it was kind of crosscut when I read it. I've never known primers to be superior with coverage. I think it's a great primer, pun intended, for HO's. It's also a nice collection of info on the various new primers out there for the pro. As to a direct link, who, me? :laughing: In time I'll modify the access when I can make some changes. It took me long enough this morning to get what's there up. I'm the blogmaster too. Chrisn's anticipatory wait is over.
> Now it's time to get an official position from the major paint cos.


 
You lost me:huh:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> You lost me:huh:


In a thread a while back on this topic, I said that I was working on something to help the situation. You said you were waiting with great anticipation. 
I think you were mocking me:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

OK, now I remember. I was NOT mocking

Good article, except for what Brush already caught.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> OK, now I remember. I was NOT mocking
> 
> Good article, except for what Brush already caught.


Easy now.
The article is important in two ways. As Brush said, it gives us something official to back up what us "yucks" say. And, we have a place to send them to learn about the various functions that primers serve.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

You know, once - just once - I'd like to see a more 'technical' review to what we all are talking about here (ie: about the continuum of paints and primers) and what the article by Joe also demonstrates...for once I'd like to see almost, what? a Consumers Report done on a whole list of such products, ranging from an 'ordinary' paint to an 'ordinary' primer, including all those specailty paints and specialty primers the article describes...the capability is there. The technical aspects are well known to do that comparison yet we get nothing more that a list of products available. 

'Cause here's what I know: "paints" - on the one end - and "primers" on the other, represent two opposite ends of a continuous scale of formulations derived from almost identical ingredients: resins, carriers, pigments, fillers and other minor ingredients. One the one end, a paint has the almost the same ingredients as the primers on the other end, only the proportions, qualities of each type of ingredient actually change...

That's being simplistic I know, as there are years and years of research and billions of research $ that have been spent in the paint industry to find that magical difference between different raw materials to give Company X that marketing difference between their and somebody else's product. But that isn't happening...so IMO there's nothing much new under the sun here. It's a continuous line of products ranging from a pure "paint" on the one end to the pure "primer" on the other. Same ingredients, different ratios, more or less. 

That explains why primer+paint in one is just marketiing hype, because nothing technically can account for it. No magic resin, no magic filler, no magic pigment that can account for one product for doing two jobs at once. The pro painter recognizes that, the homeowner doesn't....

Sure there are real exceptions like shellac primers and 100% acrylic paints; but in 40 years, there's not much else...I don't think, in any case. It's still a set of challenges that has to be met by chemical formulations with a given set of ingredients. TiO2 is TiO2 - pretty well. Organic pigments are organic pigments, acrylates are acrylates, and DEA is still an amine. Thickening can be done in a variety of ways - yet to accomplish the thickening of an expensive thickener is about the same as thickening with a cheaper ingredient...the average DIYer won't know anyway.

So there's marketing spin put on the whole range; "My product does this, my product does that..." Yet nothing or no-one can really say: "Yes your product does this but this product does that same thing better". And even then, both products could easily coexist in a saturated market...

So where does this lead us? Well, nowhere really. We are reminded of the marketing hype involved in the paint industry, that's all. This list is useful, for sure but there's isn't very much going all when all is said and done.

The only remaining question is how much are we really paying for this marketing hype? It's got to be $10-$20 per gallon, I bet. I alluded in a previous post to the fact that Behr paint is now on sale at under $20 a gallon for their interior latex. Not the Primer+Paint all in one; and I'll bet you it's the same product - only different packaging.


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## JohnDsouza (Sep 19, 2011)

Good one.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ccarlisle said:


> You know, once - just once - I'd like to see a more 'technical' review to what we all are talking about here (ie: about the continuum of paints and primers) and what the article by Joe also demonstrates...for once I'd like to see almost, what? a Consumers Report done on a whole list of such products, ranging from an 'ordinary' paint to an 'ordinary' primer, including all those specailty paints and specialty primers the article describes...the capability is there. The technical aspects are well known to do that comparison yet we get nothing more that a list of products available.
> 
> 'Cause here's what I know: "paints" - on the one end - and "primers" on the other, represent two opposite ends of a continuous scale of formulations derived from almost identical ingredients: resins, carriers, pigments, fillers and other minor ingredients. One the one end, a paint has the almost the same ingredients as the primers on the other end, only the proportions, qualities of each type of ingredient actually change...
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I reported in another thread that I did a sample test of Duration exterior on a prepped, but unprimed, section of cornice. As it happened, two to three weeks went by between the first and second coats. When I got back to do the final coat, there were some areas of discoloration haze where, maybe tannin, there was bleed through. I don't know if the second coat will hold that back. Does anyone with Duration experience know if it will? I know there are a lot of pros out there who run Duration as a primer/paint. I'm not a convert, just doing a test. The rest of the job was primed with BM Penetrating Oil primer.


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## Will22 (Feb 1, 2011)

Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Will22 said:


> Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


:thumbsup:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Will22 said:


> Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


Will, this is the point. What is self-priming? What does that mean? I've asked on more occassions that I can remember, Can I put this over x, and x varies according to the job. The answer is always a CYA "I would use a primer first". Again, "self-priming" and paint and primer in one are two different things. "Self priming" has been on the cans for decades, long before P&P in one was even heard of. No one ever told me that it means you can paint right over bare substrates, ever. It means that if you have an old, degraded surface that would normally call for priming to seal, the paint will cover it, but still requires spot priming of bare spots. Even when I bought some Behr p&p for a low budget job, the guy told me I should prime first. At least Behr and SW, with Duration, are openly, and not in CYA manner, are saying yes, put this stuff right over unprimed surfaces. With BM, I asked a tech guy at BM hotline if I can put Aura right over unprimed and he said absolutely not. This just recently. And now BM is advertising as paint and primer in one? It's self-priming, as BM products have always been, but they're not p&p in one.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan said:


> Will, this is the point. What is self-priming? What does that mean? I've asked on more occassions that I can remember, Can I put this over x, and x varies according to the job. The answer is always a CYA "I would use a primer first". Again, "self-priming" and paint and primer in one are two different things. "Self priming" has been on the cans for decades, long before P&P in one was even heard of. No one ever told me that it means you can paint right over bare substrates, ever. It means that if you have an old, degraded surface that would normally call for priming to seal, the paint will cover it, but still requires spot priming of bare spots. Even when I bought some Behr p&p for a low budget job, the guy told me I should prime first. At least Behr and SW, with Duration, are openly, and not in CYA manner, are saying yes, put this stuff right over unprimed surfaces. With BM, I asked a tech guy at BM hotline if I can put Aura right over unprimed and he said absolutely not. This just recently. And now BM is advertising as paint and primer in one? It's self-priming, as BM products have always been, but they're not p&p in one.


That just sucks


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Will22 said:


> Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


For some reason, almost all these interior paints claim that they are "one coat paints." 

Last week my wife & I painted her folks' kitchen, using Pittsburgh Paint her dad had bought. The paint had nice flow and coverage, and went on very well. I really liked it. But was it one coat, as it claimed in bold letters on the can? Only if we didn't care what the walls looked like...


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

DrHicks said:


> For some reason, almost all these interior paints claim that they are "one coat paints."
> 
> Last week my wife & I painted her folks' kitchen, using Pittsburgh Paint her dad had bought. The paint had nice flow and coverage, and went on very well. I really liked it. But was it one coat, as it claimed in bold letters on the can? Only if we didn't care what the walls looked like...


You're a wise man Dr. Hicks. IMO, the one coat paint is a bigger hype than p&p in one. It can be so if, as you said, you don't care what the walls look like. In all my years, with all the jobs I've done, and all the different paints I've used, even BM Aura, I've never seen an acceptable coverage with one coat, ever. And actually, the closest I've ever seen was with a brownish Behr flat enamel that I did once in a kitchen. I did a job a while back, living room and dining room, both rooms in Aura, both in a different dark shade of brown. As good as the coverage looked after one, when I did the second cut-in, the area of the cut was a world away from the rolled first coat areas, both in the look of the finish and the color, completely different. The first coat lays down the base, the second coat fills it in and completes the job.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

jsheridan said:


> As good as the coverage looked after one, when I did the second cut-in, the area of the cut was a world away from the rolled first coat areas, both in the look of the finish and the color, completely different. The first coat lays down the base, the second coat fills it in and completes the job.


I've never had an interior wall _not_ look much better after the second coat, regardless of what kind of paint I was using. It's kind of a no-brainer.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Back again folks with an update on my quest regarding paint and primer in one.That quest is twofold, not to disparage it, but to educate the consumer about what primer is and does, and try to find out the truth behind the claims by the manufacturers, the list of which is growing. To the first aim, I've published an article titled Paint vs Primer, which I believe is educational for those think paint is paint and primer is primer, and is consistent with what we try to advance here. The second is an effort to get the paint companies to become involved with the forum and help us understand their products and why/how their claims their paint and primers in one claims are valid. I've extended the invitation to reps from Behr and BM. The invite to BM is fresh, but the invite to Behr is stale and to date hasn't been accepted. That doesn't comfort me. I think that with the explosion of online marketing and knowledge advancement, that not participating in forums like this is a lost opportunity. Look at the bashing that Behr has taken, and there is no one here to defend them. I think they could add knowledge and create a more lively environment. 
I was leery about doing self promotion here with the link to my article, but screw it. I don't make money off of the traffic generated. I spend a lot of time here helping others and trying to add to the fourm, all for free, so if I get a little recognition/promotion out of some of those efforts, so be it. Thanks. Merry Christmas! If you're not Christian, just say thanks and take it as wish for happiness.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan said:


> Back again folks with an update on my quest regarding paint and primer in one.That quest is twofold, not to disparage it, but to educate the consumer about what primer is and does, and try to find out the truth behind the claims by the manufacturers, the list of which is growing. To the first aim, I've published an article titled Paint vs Primer, which I believe is educational for those think paint is paint and primer is primer, and is consistent with what we try to advance here. The second is an effort to get the paint companies to become involved with the forum and help us understand their products and why/how their claims their paint and primers in one claims are valid. I've extended the invitation to reps from Behr and BM. The invite to BM is fresh, but the invite to Behr is stale and to date hasn't been accepted. That doesn't comfort me. I think that with the explosion of online marketing and knowldege advancement, that not participating in forums like this is a lost opportunity. Look at the bashing that Behr has taken, and there is no one here to defend them:whistling2:. I think they could add knowledge and create a more lively environment.
> I was leery about doing self promotion here with the link to my article, but screw it. I don't make money off of the traffic generated. I spend a lot of time here helping others and trying to add to the fourm, all for free, so if I get a little recognition/promotion out of some of those efforts, so be it. Thanks. Merry Christmas! If you're not Christian, just say thanks and take it as wish for happiness.


 
Dont hold your'e breath. I have my doubts BM will respond either


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

This is a LOT like the "Shampoo & Conditioner"...IN ONE marketing!

We've always HUMOROUSLY asked customers, if they inquire, "How does the primer in the paint...know how to get to the wall FIRST?!?!?!
* They're kinda stumped by that, then they smile!

There's a LOT of ways to advertise a paint as "P & P" in one.
* Reformulated bases can say that if they're 100% Acrylic....WHICH MOST DECENT PAINTS ARE ANYWAY!!!
* Some, like ACE's new "Clark + Kensington" P&P, use a new Ceramic-Microsphere main resin. There are already companies doing this obviously.
* BUT....it's not actually a PRIMER...according to "normal" definitions of primers.
* It's just an improved PAINT-RESIN, which forms a slightly tighter/denser film... >>> THAT ACTS LIKE A PRIMER <<<.
* In that respect, it can be "called" P&P-in-one. 
* ACE DOES at least state on the label, instances where SEPARATE PRIMING IS NEEDED.
* Paints like these MAY do better on somewhat porous surfaces, than previous versions (of the same paint-line) did just a couple years ago. Therefore....they have kind of a "Priming EFFECT", without being an actual separate "Primer".

>>> Are the lines/marketing blurry and confusing nowadays...HELL YES!!!
This is one Industry development I wish never would've happened.
BUT...like cars...ya have to keep tweaking the same old thing!!!

Next thing ya know...Cake-mixes will come out with "CAKE AND FROSTING IN ONE"!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing::whistling2:
OR..."Bread & Butter in ONE"...OR..."Turkey & Dressing in ONE"...OR....
....OK I'll stop now....:jester::sneaky2:

Faron


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

is someone implying that we have our CAKE and EAT it too!?

i thought this was interesting... if what i'm seeing in these tests are real, pretty impressive! 

*BEHR premimum plus ULTRA*

http://www.jackpauhl.com/2010/04/behr-premium-plus-ultra-eggshell/


but even as a DIY, not a pro, i still see the value in putting down a Primer!



james


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

jawadesign said:


> is someone implying that we have our CAKE and EAT it too!?
> 
> i thought this was interesting... if what i'm seeing in these tests are real, pretty impressive!
> 
> ...


Thanks James, I read the whole review. Jack has a very scientific approach, and what he's found is compelling. It's basically the same results I achieved using ultra over bare drywall, the coverage was perfect (deep dark green) after one and the finish was very rich looking. My only concern with it is, does it bond? Jack didn't address that. I would suggest that all, even the Doubty Thomas', read Jack's review. Thanks for the contribution. 
Joe


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Jack does good research and reviews and i strongly urge anyone wanting to go deeper to page through his site.
But be aware- he is very specific about what products and tools work best where. He will switch from one thing to the next to maximize anythings strong points. 
So if your looking for a one answer to all things, Jack is not going to ever say that. His point of view is always maximum production.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I think Jack's a mad scientist. BJ, did you get my mail?


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes JS- Good article- I think we should have it at the ready when the subject comes up to link rather than write it out each time.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks BJ, the site is real happy with it. It's actually making some rounds in different paint cos, how far I don't know. But people from Behr have recieved it, the pro desk manager at HD is forwarding it to his paint counter people and his glidden rep. And it's gone to numerous BM people store level and above. I was picking the brain of a BM sales rep at a dealer Christmas luncheon and followed it up with an email, including an invite to the forum. I told him it's a tough crowd here when it comes to paint and primer in one, which they're all on board with now. He stated unequivocally that you can put Aura over bare drywall with no problem. I said I'm not buying it until I see some proof, testing, samples, etc. So far, mad scientist Jack Pauhl is the only evidence I've seen, and that still doesn't tell me it's healthy. 
I have a link to this thread at the ready. I'm going to try building a link library of the more valuable threads by category. We'll see, I'm gonna do a lot of things. :laughing:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan said:


> Thanks BJ, the site is real happy with it. It's actually making some rounds in different paint cos, how far I don't know. But people from Behr have recieved it, the pro desk manager at HD is forwarding it to his paint counter people and his glidden rep. And it's gone to numerous BM people store level and above. I was picking the brain of a BM sales rep at a dealer Christmas luncheon and followed it up with an email, including an invite to the forum. I told him it's a tough crowd here when it comes to paint and primer in one, which they're all on board with now. He stated unequivocally that you can put Aura over bare drywall with no problem. I said I'm not buying it until I see some proof, testing, samples, etc. So far, mad scientist Jack Pauhl is the only evidence I've seen, and that still doesn't tell me it's healthy.
> I have a link to this thread at the ready. I'm going to try building a link library of the more valuable threads by category. We'll see, I'm gonna do a lot of things. :laughing:


 
I think to problem with his "research" is sort of the same as CR's, , they have no valid info on what happens down the road


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Brushjockey said:


> Yes JS- Good article- I think we should have it at the ready when the subject comes up to link rather than write it out each time.


 
I have it tucked away and will do that since it seems I am up the earliest, most days.:whistling2:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> I think to problem with his "research" is sort of the same as CR's, , they have no valid info on what happens down the road


Exactamundo!

Yes, you are quite the early bird.:laughing:


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Kinda looks like he was intentionally trying to get the ICI and Duration to flash only rolling 1/3 of the wall at a time. And I also see 3 different shades of red there and that can make all the difference in the world when it comes to red. Also, in think SW has ColorAccents series which has true red bases, not the Ultra Deep Base he did the duration in.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

A quick observation... I was in both SW and BM over the weekend doing a little product and price comparison.

I noticed BM had display boards up on the wall, 4 in barn red and 4 in sky blue. Basically it was a comparison grid. The two top panels displayed BM products, Aqua and Regal select and on the bottom, SW's duration and BEHR's ultra. The display was finished in a one and two coat application over, smoke, a grey colored band, sharpie, crayon and lipstick. The Aqua and Regal select completely covered the markings on the second coat, and the end result looked great!! The SW duration and BEHR ultra, the marks remained and were definitely visible. It would take at least another coat(3) to cover up the marks for both brands. This applied for both the barn red and sky blue. Based on BM's testimony, the BEHR ultra is NOT a 1-coat cover up paint/primer in one. Unfortunately, neither is SW's duration, one of their more superior DIY'rs paint. But remember, and this is where BM gets you, the duration does NOT have a primer built in, SW’s SuperPaint does however and it costs 27% less than the duration.
To be fair, I am not comparing apples to apples either, both Regal select and Duration are great paints for their price points and they both have their unique qualities. The difference for me is about 16% per gallon, Regal being the more expensive. 


That is all, take it for what it is...
James


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> I reported in another thread that I did a sample test of Duration exterior on a prepped, but unprimed, section of cornice. As it happened, two to three weeks went by between the first and second coats. When I got back to do the final coat, there were some areas of discoloration haze where, maybe tannin, there was bleed through. I don't know if the second coat will hold that back. Does anyone with Duration experience know if it will? I know there are a lot of pros out there who run Duration as a primer/paint. I'm not a convert, just doing a test. The rest of the job was primed with BM Penetrating Oil primer.


I was just reading through this whole thread. Came across your test with Duration. I use Duration a lot, but always prime as needed. You can't just apply Duration to raw substrate, I believe it even says on the can that some substartes need priminig with a primer. If the substrate is bare, especially cedar you would need to prime with the appropriate primer before applying duration. I've never had any problems with interior-exterior duration, but I do prime bare substrates first as you should. My SW rep even told me when Duration exterior first came out that you need to prime bare substrates.


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

James- does not have the primer built in?? Do you actually know what that means? 
It means that is is acrylic based. That is all.
And not all acrylic resins are equal. Some are better at being primer.Some are better at being paints. 
Read Ric knows paints contribution on the subject.
Read JS's column mentioned in another thread-

This stuff is not simple- thats why us pros have a job! 
I like Farons line- how does the paint know how to put the primer part down first...lol


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

housepaintingny said:


> I was just reading through this whole thread. Came across your test with Duration. I use Duration a lot, but always prime as needed. You can't just apply Duration to raw substrate, I believe it even says on the can that some substartes need priminig with a primer. If the substrate is bare, especially cedar you would need to prime with the appropriate primer before applying duration. I've never had any problems with interior-exterior duration, but I do prime bare substrates first as you should. My SW rep even told me when Duration exterior first came out that you need to prime bare substrates.


What prompted me to do this experiment was that it said on the can that it can go over bare wood, exterior, and it wasn't cedar. I'll point you to the PDS, where it says it there as well. It also states that while some staining may appear throught the first coat, it will lock in. For stubborn stains use oil spot prime. I'm planning to do another experiment as well. In my conversation with a BM rep, he said that the resins (BJ) in Aura allow for applying directly over bare sheetrock and compound, and includes Aura Bath and Spa. He's absolutely certain, no bonding issues, no flashing, everything will be perfect. He said it is the ONLY product they carry that can do that, no others. The resins are specific to Aura. Store manager said to remember that he told you that. I plan to use the Bath and Spa in a bath where quite a bit of repair was done. I will justify the price difference in that it will save a coat of primer. I'm not selling out, but I think that we need to balance. New technology will allow certain things that past technologies wouldn't support. Since there is so much confusion and lack of info, and trust in what we're told isn't very high, the only way to learn what it can and can't do is try it. I told the rep that that is my history, take what the paint cos tell me as a guide only, and learn what the products will do by my own and others' experiments. I've learned not to believe everything the paint cos tell me. Confusion reigns.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks Brushjockey for the explanation.

As it was explained to me by the SW manager, their Duration line does not include a primer, it's NOT a paint/primer hybrid. But the BM manager stated that their Regal select line is and that's why I feel BM's comparison display is skewed, they have a high end paint, two paint/primer hybrids and then the duration paint all side by side. Comparing cover-up capabilities… that's the point of the displays. 

Yes, I am aware that there are different mixtures of chemicals that go into everything man made, but didn't realize that all it meant was it was acyrlic based... you make it sound so simple :thumbsup:

Yes, painting is not and easy task, especially if you want a great looking finish that will last the test of time. It takes years of experience, tricks of the trade, the right tools and an idividual that gives a sh!t about the job. If you don't have that combo, expect less than 100% and a job that's OK at best. 



James


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

This subject is totally confusing- partially because we are in the middle of a major change in all paint technologies. 
As we've discussed here many times - when you think primer- think problem solver.
And to know which problem solver you need, you need to know what the problem is that you are solving.
One of the most basic , and somewhat easy to solve is dissimilar porosity- ie- mud/sheetrock/previously painted.
This will be where an all in wonder will usually work. But it will still take 2- 3 coats to get it to be even- so the first coat is acting like a primer. 
In many cases, even though that will work, a real primer will do it better/faster/cheaper.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ya know, primer sucks for coverage so I don't know why you would want it in your paint anyways.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

Brushjockey said:


> I like Farons line- how does the paint know how to put the primer part down first...lol


 

This is funny at first read, but the paint does know how to put the (primer) or additive with the adhesion promoter down first. IIRC, a lot of the all in one paints promote the NANO technology that basically slips in between the tooth of the drywall or paint, it bonds to every surface particle like glue. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle


As far as I know, no one here has a PhD in chemistry... nor do they have that degree specifically in the paint manufacturing process. So we are all guessing at this so called new paint technology and it's hybrid capabilities, testing it in the field, making our assessments and some are drawing their conclusions. It's going to take time to make true believers... 

To brushjockeys point...
I too want a problem solver, a specific paint for that particular step of the job, not something that kind does it all in one package. As good as they say this paint is at covering up a prepainted wall in two steps, I would prefer to clean the wall first, prime it, then paint it. One extra step... that's OK with me.


paint... the basics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint

primer...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_primer


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

i came across this today and thought i would share

http://www.oneprojectcloser.com/price-review-duron-ralph-lauren-behr-valspar-paint-vs/

*SW* SuperPaint tested... (paint/"primer") when on sale it's in the low $30's


http://www.jackpauhl.com/2010/04/behr-premium-plus-ultra-eggshell/

*SW* Duration tested... why not compare apples to apples? btw, it's in the upper $30's during their sale period. the guys at SW state it's NOT their "all in one paint", not the best for coverup, but better for durability and potential mold compared to their SuperPaint.


i know there are a lot of factors in these independent tests, so draw your own conclusions... the way i see it, SW SuperPaint does a better job than Behr's Ultra at covering up :whistling2:


james


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

I just bought some Super Spec today. But it was at a Benny Moore store...


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

am not all crazy into this subject:no: ,to me its marketing hype.when i have a reason to prime i prime:yes: . grip,stain blocking,new wood,new dry wall, vapor barrier,gray primer for the reds and such,. i always price 2 coats no matter what ,this way when i leave a clients home their is no excuses, apologies,tap dancing ,nope its perfect and that's what they paid for:huh: anywho when i see a paint in primer in one or self priming all that tells me is that its a good paint. by the way sherwin williams super paint is my basic day in day out paint. the formula has not changed in years but now the label on the can says self priming .the manger at s/w looked at me and rolled his eyes. oh well what do i know? i don't have a lab jacket and i dont take my glasses off when i think:huh:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ltd said:


> am not all crazy into this subject:no: ,to me its marketing hype.when i have a reason to prime i prime:yes: . grip,stain blocking,new wood,new dry wall, vapor barrier,gray primer for the reds and such,. i always price 2 coats no matter what ,this way when i leave a clients home their is no excuses, apologies,tap dancing ,nope its perfect and that's what they paid for:huh: anywho when i see a paint in primer in one or self priming all that tells me is that its a good paint. by the way sherwin williams super paint is my basic day in day out paint. the formula has not changed in years but now the label on the can says self priming .the manger at s/w looked at me and rolled his eyes. oh well what do i know? i don't have a lab jacket and i dont take my gasses of when think:huh:


uh oh:laughing:


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

chris said:


> uh oh:laughing:


 hey i'm getting better you have to admit


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ltd said:


> hey i'm getting better you have to admit


true, true:yes:


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## PaintingTech (Dec 25, 2011)

Very good stuff thank you so much for sharing!


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Thanks James, I read the whole review. Jack has a very scientific approach, and what he's found is compelling. It's basically the same results I achieved using ultra over bare drywall, the coverage was perfect (deep dark green) after one and the finish was very rich looking. My only concern with it is, does it bond? Jack didn't address that. I would suggest that all, even the Doubty Thomas', read Jack's review. Thanks for the contribution.
> Joe


http://www.astm.org/Standards/D3359.htm

http://www.perfectwoodprofiles.com/downloads/technical/EB%20Paint%20Adhesion%2004%2021%2010.pdf


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> http://www.astm.org/Standards/D3359.htm
> 
> http://www.perfectwoodprofiles.com/downloads/technical/EB Paint Adhesion 04 21 10.pdf


 
All well and good if everybody's homes were built with "perfect wood"


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

If you read the link to ASTM D 3359, you will see that the test is intended for a metal substraights and is also for light duty adhesion. Since most houses are not built with "Perfect Wood", i think that if a more strengent test method was used for the appropriate substraight the results would be more true and accurate. These test can be performed over wood,plaster or drywall according to application methods and cure times suggested by the manufacturer. Performance test such as Abbrasion test (scrubability), mold/mildew testing, UV exposure and flexability testing can be found on product data sheets for most quality coatings already. This information is not present on the Behr paint PDS so it probably has never been indepentently tested for its overall performance and longevity. Coverage and hiding power is only a small portion of what makes a quality paint. If someone really wanted to compair the overall performance of products, following the test standards set by ASTM would be an accurate way of doing so.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> If you read the link to ASTM D 3359, you will see that the test is intended for a metal substraights and is also for light duty adhesion. Since most houses are not built with "Perfect Wood", i think that if a more strengent test method was used for the appropriate substraight the results would be more true and accurate. These test can be performed over wood,plaster or drywall according to application methods and cure times suggested by the manufacturer. Performance test such as Abbrasion test (scrubability), mold/mildew testing, UV exposure and flexability testing can be found on product data sheets for most quality coatings already. This information is not present on the Behr paint PDS so it probably has never been indepentently tested for its overall performance and longevity. Coverage and hiding power is only a small portion of what makes a quality paint. If someone really wanted to compair the overall performance of products, following the test standards set by ASTM would be an accurate way of doing so.


agreed:thumbsup:


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## Brushjockey (Mar 8, 2011)

This information is not present on the Behr paint PDS so it probably has never been indepentently tested for its overall performance and longevity

I didn't know that this hadn't been done. Isn't that telling. And probably more Behr is sold than any paint, but "somehow" this kind of testing is not available, and all HO have is the Consumer Report that says if you're not willing to pay for the good stuff get this...


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I see no indication of that testing standard on Aura Bath and Spa TDS either, but it ok's going over bare drwall. I am currently doing a bath remodel where I am testing it over existing drywall with a good bit of patching. The first coat looks pretty good for one coat. I'm also going to do a test with a piece of unprimed sheetrock that I will use for an adhesion test. I'll keep you posted. Thanks Mustang.


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## mustangmike3789 (Apr 10, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> I see no indication of that testing standard on Aura Bath and Spa TDS either, but it ok's going over bare drwall. I am currently doing a bath remodel where I am testing it over existing drywall with a good bit of patching. The first coat looks pretty good for one coat. I'm also going to do a test with a piece of unprimed sheetrock that I will use for an adhesion test. I'll keep you posted. Thanks Mustang.


I've inserted a link to SW DTM Acrylic. As you can see, testing has been done on this product. What type of adhesion test are you going to do? The tape test will work if the adhesion power of the paint is less than the pull off strength of the tape. I like a pull off adhesion test with a mechanical gauge that records the results in inch pounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3so3ktUA8E


http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=B66W111


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

mustangmike3789 said:


> I've inserted a link to SW DTM Acrylic. As you can see, testing has been done on this product. What type of adhesion test are you going to do? The tape test will work if the adhesion power of the paint is less than the pull off strength of the tape. I like a pull off adhesion test with a mechanical gauge that records the results in inch pounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3so3ktUA8E
> 
> 
> http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=B66W111


Funny that you mention that, I just got one of those in my stocking for Christmas from Mom. She hoped that would suffice because they were out of the sling psychrometer that I had asked for, which my heart was so set on I couldn't sleep Christmas eve. :laughing:

Thanks Mike, I think that SW is better at documenting their products. I also think that that info is provided on the products which have industrial applications, like where your line of work comes in, where the tech matters. BM Aura Bath and Spa, how many industrial apps do you think that's seen? One thing I've noticed in my times on BM site is that I've never seen any of their industrial products. Maybe you have to dig deeper than I ever have. To answer your question, I'll use a masking tape test, pressed hard, and torn off like a band-aid. If it passes that it's okay for me.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jsheridan;808983[COLOR=red said:


> ]Funny that you mention that, I just got one of those in my stocking for Christmas from Mom. She hoped that would suffice because they were out of the sling psychrometer that I had asked for, which my heart was so set on I couldn't sleep Christmas eve.[/COLOR] :laughing:
> 
> Thanks Mike, I think that SW is better at documenting their products. I also think that that info is provided on the products which have industrial applications, like where your line of work comes in, where the tech matters. BM Aura Bath and Spa, how many industrial apps do you think that's seen? One thing I've noticed in my times on BM site is that I've never seen any of their industrial products. Maybe you have to dig deeper than I ever have. To answer your question, I'll use a masking tape test, pressed hard, and torn off like a band-aid. If it passes that it's okay for me.


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

I know questions regarding CHB have been covered elsewhere, but I think this thread applies...


The manager at the *SW* store mentioned *CHB* as being a paint/primer in one. I have new drywall throughout my 1k+ sq. condo and because they only sell their New Drywall Primer by the (gallon), he mentioned moving over to CHB as an alternative, similiar price. I asked if their 400 line primer was better, he mentioned CHB as being the same thing, the only difference was you could leave it as a flat ceiling paint. One or two coats of CHB and your done. 

I went back and forth with him a little, stating I was going to prime and apply 2 finished coats, so the one coat application did not apply to my situation. He said, try CHB, if it does not compare to our NDP then bring it back and will swap it out for our 400 primer. 


Thoughts? I put the brakes on... (again) and thinking this over before I start the project. I cut in one of the rooms already with *SW* NDP and I like it!!


James


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jawadesign said:


> I know questions regarding CHB have been covered elsewhere, but I think this thread applies...
> 
> 
> The manager at the *SW* store mentioned *CHB* as being a paint/primer in one. I have new drywall throughout my 1k+ sq. condo and because they only sell their New Drywall Primer by the (gallon), he mentioned moving over to CHB as an alternative, similiar price. I asked if their 400 line primer was better, he mentioned CHB as being the same thing, the only difference was you could leave it as a flat ceiling paint. One or two coats of CHB and your done.
> ...


CHB=Chronic Hepatitis B.

NDP=?:huh:


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

chris said:


> CHB=Chronic Hepatitis B.
> 
> NDP=?:huh:[/quote i googled the same thing :huh:


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

CHB (chicago home builders), i posted here because it was on the paint/prime topic... and it was not an older thread.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/how-many-coats-primer-do-i-need-fresh-drywall-36501/index3/ 

NDP... (new drywall primer)

my argument to the SW manager was CHB was a hybrid and not a primer only. i want more bonding agents, which i'm guessing their NDP possesses!


James


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I'm confused:huh:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

What is Chicago Home Builders? Is that one of their lines of paint or a company in Chi-town?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I'm still confused


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## Will22 (Feb 1, 2011)

CHB= Custom Home Builders, Paint used for new construction.


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