# Wiring Garage for 220



## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

No picture...


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Itsdanf: Sorry. It was too large to upload. I just uploaded good photos to the original post. TIA.


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

looks to me like 200 A


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

"signing off on some ceiling fans and lights"
Need more education here: In CA, you have to have an inspector "sign off" on ceiling fan and light installation?
I'm just wondering. David


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

*Permits for*

junkcollector: Cool. I was pretty sure, but cool!

thurman: Yep. You need a permit to scratch your nose. Most people don't get one, but I am looking ahead at what happens when we sell the house.It's not just electrical. For instance, you need a permit to replace a gas water heater. Also, I believe, to r&r a garbage disposal even if you simply plug into the existing plug and use the same plumbing. (Me bad. I just replaced one for the second time in 18 years in this house and that I am not pulling a permit on.)


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Yes the code requires permits for that sort of thing. Not to sidetrack, but that's simply because a lot of DIYers and equally as many PROFESSIONALS cannot and do not do it correctly. I see it on a daily basis. I pull light fixtures on every final inspection I do, and half the time they're not grounded, don't have boxes, etc.

Looks like you have a 200 amp main, so one can fairly safely assume you have a 200 amp meter. 

That being said, I'm not understanding why the inspector would say you need to have a 200 amp service just because you want to install 220v in your garage. You have an A phase and a B phase, so you can run 220v...Amperage of the service has nothing to do with it.

As far as needing a new panel...There's a heck of a lot of expansion room on the one in the picture.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

thekctermite: To be fair to the inspector, he wasn't there to look at the service box (unless for some reason he needed to inspect the fan and lights). 

Why I would need more service than I have, I don't get. It is my understanding that running the same equipment on 240 draws the same amps as it would if wired for 120. Perhaps he was suggesting that a 100 amp service would be a bit marginal. I agree, but I also think it would be marginal even if I didn't add the dedicated lines to the garage.

Yes, 8 open breaker slots is plenty. A neighbor with the same model (and an AA in electrical engineering who has sold for GE, GreenTree, and Simpull) and I were talking in his garage today. He said it is a 200 A panel.

He wired his garage already for 240. He went with a subpanel, but I am not convinced that is the way to go. He likes to be able to shut down that subpanel without having to go outside to the main. This is also a guy that just bought a road bicycle for $2,700 to augment his hybrid bike. I paid $135 for mine.

Now that it seems that I won't have to swap out the main panel, nor use a subpanel, I am wondering if I can run one #10 cable off of a double pole breaker, say a 20A, which well protects the circuit. This is where I don't have things quite clear.

My understanding is that a 240 circuit is basically a white neutral, two hots 9a black and a red) and a ground (green or bare). (Does this even come in 10 AWG?) Can I run one 240 cable and use it to wire up both 120 and 240 Volt receptacles by only wiring one hot to the 120 receptacle? Both the red and black connect to each 240 and either the red or the black to each 120. I would probably alternate the red and black on the 120 outlets. 

Is it best to run a separate circuit for 240 and 120, even if code permits mixed? Code may not even allow this. At the moment, I am planning to run it through 1/2" conduit attached to the inside of the sheet rock.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Attached or detached garage ?
For detached if you need 240 & 120v better to run a sub
Distance to the sub panel location ?
What will you be running in the garage ?



Klawman said:


> My understanding is that a 240 circuit is basically a white neutral, *two hots 9a black and a red*) and a ground (green or bare). (Does this even come in 10 AWG?) Can I run one 240 cable and use it to wire up both 120 and 240 Volt receptacles by only wiring one hot to the 120 receptacle? Both the red and black connect to each 240 and either the red or the black to each 120. I would probably alternate the red and black on the 120 outlets.


20a 240v is 2 hots @ 20a...not 2 hots @ 10a
White neutral & green insulated ground
Not sure what the red & black 9a is about ?
Running equipment on 240v draws 1/2 the amps as 120v

If a person has marginal power @100a service per a whole house power calc then you may be required to upgrade to 200a
Code requires the service to be big enough to feed anticipated load


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I would run a subpanel into the garage.
you stated that you are getting into woodworking.
Before you know it, you will have several peices of equipment that take have different power requiements.
One of those may be a dust collector that will be running with other tools on.
Just the way I would do it.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

> Attached or detached garage ?


Attached


> For detached if you need 240 & 120v better to run a sub


From your, jbfan's, and my neighbor's input, I am convinced.


> Distance to the sub panel location ?


Within 5' of the main facing the outside of the garage perimeter wall. This will be on the inside almost opposite the main.


> What will you be running in the garage ?


A 12" miter saw, table saw, shop vac, router, bisquit jointer, handheld power tools (drill, jigsaw, skill saw,) As jbfan suggests, I may get a smaller dust collector. Perhaps a drill press and a bandsaw. Possibly, but not likely, a planer and joiner. Then there is the possibility of a small space heater. (It doesn't get that cold in So Cal)



> 20a 240v is 2 hots @ 20a...not 2 hots @ 10a
> White neutral & green insulated ground
> Not sure what the red & black 9a is about ?/
> 
> ...


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> I would run a subpanel into the garage.
> you stated that you are getting into woodworking.
> Before you know it, you will have several peices of equipment that take have different power requiements.
> One of those may be a dust collector that will be running with other tools on.
> Just the way I would do it.


See my reply to Scuba_Dave. I am pretty well convinced that the sub panel is the way to go. It will also save a lot of work, if I later find the need for all the unanticipated equipment. Not having to mess wiring into the master panel. Also, as I plan to use exposed 1/2" conduit with few turns, I should be able to pull how many circuits, 2 or 3?. I believe there is a rule about heat generated per circuit in conduit, which may be a factor.

Realistically, I am thinking the max amps (disregarding lights which should have a minimal draw) pulled in the garage at any one time would be 20A. I am thinking 10 AWG to allow for up to 30A draw on any wire for equipment creep. I was going to install a 20A breaker for additional safety. If I get to the point that it is opening, I still have the #10 wired and can go with a 30A breaker if I am convinced the line has no problems other than drawing more than the 20A. If I really need the capacity is where I will be glad for the subpanel.

Thanks for all the help.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I would not put less than a 40 amp sub in, maybe even a 60 amp sub.
The extra cost is minimal, but just knowing you would not have to upgrade again is worth it.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> I would not put less than a 40 amp sub in, maybe even a 60 amp sub.
> The extra cost is minimal, but just knowing you would not have to upgrade again is worth it.


I think I will go with a 60, but until you mentioned it I hadn't even considered the size of what I would call the feeder line running from the master to the sub.

One thing that may help is that my neighbor wants to come over and try his new toy out on my house. A Greenlee line tracer. (He used to be a rep for Greenlee.) I mapped the entire house out once using the pita method. Breaker off, check what is dead, breaker on. It helped when I could get the wife to flip the breakers while I called her on the cell phone. Still, I can only guess how they ran much of the nm.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My 60a sub I bought a 100a panel & fed it with 60a
There is a section in the code that requires a Min 60a disconnect
There has been debate about if a 100a sub with a 100a main breaker & being fed with 40a meets code
One local Inspector (not here) required a 60a min disconnect in the main panel


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> My 60a sub I bought a 100a panel & fed it with 60a
> There is a section in the code that requires a Min 60a disconnect
> There has been debate about if a 100a sub with a 100a main breaker & being fed with 40a meets code
> One local Inspector (not here) required a 60a min disconnect in the main panel


That I will run past the local building department. To be honest, I don't quite grasp this, but I suspect that local inspector is wrong. I think the idea is that a user can disconnect power in case of a problem. Disconnects can be located in master panels, but are best if in a sub where the sub is in sight of the user. Also, it seems to reference a "minimum" disconnect. You have the main in the master panel, which enables someone running to the master in the case of an emergency to kill all power. But I am no electrician and not even in construction trades, nor have I seen the code. My electrical training consists of Marine Corp aviation ordnance A school and a high school elective in radio and electronics. Both are really electronics as opposed to electrical. I have slept at a Howard Johnson's.

I really shouldn't have even commented on the disconnect issue, as all I am doing is showing my ignorance of the subject. It just seems that having the disconnect closer to the potential problem is best.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

It is not required.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

jbfan said:


> It is not required.


What is not required ?
A disconnect at the panel ?
Or a min 60a disconnect ?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Either!
A 60 amp rated disconnect is only for feeding a deattached garage or structure, and a sub does not need a disconnect at the sub location.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ah...just realized...I was thinking detached...Thanks


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I just got off the phone with someone at an HD. I called to get a rough idea of some costs of running this subpanel. If this person is right, my 200A service isn't adequate.

I know that what they say is not exactly gospel, even if they think they know of what they speak. (Last week when I was at an HD, a guy in electrical who said he has 4 years as an electrician's apprentice told me to swap out a 15A breaker on a 15A circuit for a 20A or 30A.)

This woman said that I should total the amperage of all the breakers in my main panel, and if it was at or near 200 I couldn't run a sub off of it. even if I have 8 open breaker slots. Is that correct? If it is, the main was overloaded at the time of construction as the total rating of the present breakers is 335A.

Also, looking at my little electrical wiring book for dummies, it says, "A 240-volt circuit is always dedicated to one outlet." Now I see why I would want a sub panel with room for 6 breakers. I need one 240 outlet now for the table saw, and will probably need at least one other. That accounts for four of the six breaker bays. I want one of the two remaining slots for a series of 110. If the cost isn't much more, I may spring for a larger subpanel.

I am most concerned for the time being with what the HD employee said about my main being overloaded if the total amperage of all breakers exceeds the rating for the main panel; 200A. What is she thinking?


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

BS! If that was the case, we would all be tripping breakers.
The load on the main panel is based on usage not what the breakers add up to be.
Quit asking HD emploees anything but where the parts are.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Whoever told you that has no CLUE about this & is an idiot
Like JB said DO NOT ask HD employees about stuff like this
Sometime you will find someone who knows a little code, but not usually
I have a 200a main, (2) 100a subs, 60a sub & my total breakers in amps is in the thousands of amps
My main panel has 640a total breakers all calc'd at 240v

If your electric bill isn't like $1000's a month - like ALL electric heat, HW etc then you are fine

A 240v circuits CAN have more then one outlet under certain circumstances
Usually since devices have different requirements or may take a high percentage of a circuit they are dedicated


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> BS! If that was the case, we would all be tripping breakers.
> The load on the main panel is based on usage not what the breakers add up to be.
> Quit asking HD employees anything but where the parts are.


I have to say you are right on. BTW, I didn't ask the person about the main panel capacity, but only asked how much for a 60A subpanel. She offered this up. Even the little book sold by HD says, "if you add up the amperage of all the breakers in the box" the total may well exceed the overall rating of the panel" and gives an example of a 100 amp panel with breakers totaling 220, as presently configured I am fine with a 100 amp panel. The same book provides a method of estimating panel requirements. Per the suggested worksheet, I can almost get buy with a 100 amp panel, though I have a 200 Amp master. Ergo, my eight open breaker slots.



Scuba_Dave said:


> Whoever told you that has no CLUE about this & is an idiot
> Like JB said DO NOT ask HD employees about stuff like this
> Sometime you will find someone who knows a little code, but not usually
> I have a 200a main, (2) 100a subs, 60a sub & my total breakers in amps is in the thousands of amps
> ...


If I thought the guys at HD knew what they were talking about, I wouldn't go online to find out the right way of things. Using the work sheet in HD's own book "Wiring 1-2-3" I calculated that I need a 117 A main, if there was such an animal, and that is rating my appliances generously. I don't doubt that a 200 amp main is plenty for my purposes.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Ah...just realized...I was thinking detached...Thanks


I should have made that clearer. Thought you may be thinking disconnect when you asked about the length of the run. Nothing will be over 50'.

Thinking about this more, I am definitely sold on going with a sub-panel. Went to price things at the same HD and the same very nice but not too bright "apprentice electrician" for some reason probably bored and trying to be helpful, while demonstrating his knowledge) tried to convince me not to go with a sub and just come off the main, as I have the 8 open bus slots on the main.

I am sticking with the sub. You guys recommend it, everyone I know who has wired their garage for 240 uses one, I like it being easily within a few feet of my work area, and I will be left with five slots on the main for future use. (When the walls are open for some reason, like remodeling, I would like to upgrade some of the questionable but legal house circuits.)

I am now planning the garage circuits. I 86'd my idea of running the 120 off of a single alternating hot leg of the 4 wire 240 circuit. I still don't know if that would be legal or wise, but I will play it safe and go with a dedicated 120 for garage lights and 120 receptacles. I will then run at least two 240 circuits of the sub. One will be dedicated to my table saw, which is easily rewired from 120 to 240. I may run two 240 receptacles off of the other 240 circuit. I understand that can be done but is not common. Am thinking about getting a larger panel for the sub that will accommodate three circuits feeding one 240.

Not sure how large a double breaker I need on the main to feed the sub. Again, I will check with the city, but am thinking a 40A feeder breaker, and #8 feeder wires will do the trick, even if the sub panel is rated for 60A.

Am thinking that all 240 and the 120 should be on 20A breakers and that 12 AWG is sufficient. I will check what the local building deparment wants for a feed from the main to the sub, but am not to concerned as it will be a short run of no more than 6'. That will be nm, as it will go from the double breaker in the main, out of the main and into the back of the sub where the two hots each connect with a "lug" (?). I have readily understood wiring diagram based on the 2005 NEC that I plan to follow, after I run it by the City inspector.

I also understand there is something about ground fault protection for "readily accessible" 120, not 240, receptacles in garages. What is the better way to do that? What of using a GFCI breaker at the sub panel, if there is such a creature?

Here is the NEC 2005 based wiring diagram. I am posting it because I realize it may not include more recent changes to code. ANYONE VIEWING THIS, I AM JUST A DIYER, NOT AN ELECTRICIAN, AND THIS IS BASED ON AN OLDER VERSION OF THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE. I DO NOT KNOW IF IT WAS THEN OR IS STILL UP TO CODE.

Also note that a poster who seems to be knowledgeable posted what seems to be the same diagram but noted that *the diagram "lays out the main things that need to be considered but is not intended as a "how to" diagram". *I believe that he poster "Stubbie" may be the creator of the diagram. See his post at lays out the main things that need to be considered but is not intended as a "how to" diagram.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

*Subpanel Wiring Diagram*

I want it clear that the wiring diagram in the above post is not my work, but something I copied from another thread on another site. I really don't know if it is correct or not, as I am only a pencil pusher. However, I wouldn't post it if I didn't think it may be correct and the experts here may get around to commenting on it. Still, it is based on a four year old version of the NEC.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Looks good to me. :yes:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

kbsparky said:


> Looks good to me. :yes:


ME 2:thumbup:


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> My 60a sub I bought a 100a panel & fed it with 60a
> There is a section in the code that requires a Min 60a disconnect
> There has been debate about if a 100a sub with a 100a main breaker & being fed with 40a meets code
> One local Inspector (not here) required a 60a min disconnect in the main panel


I sometimes get it, even if it takes a while. I ran this by stubbie, sort of, but forgot to give him the model # so he could really check it out.

For about $53 including tax, I bought a 100 Amp main main breaker panel with space for 20 single pole breakers at the HD. It came with 5 20-Amp breakers and, yes, a door. The 100 A main breaker is factory installed.

Google.com/products has them starting at $67 plus tax and shipping. Schneider Electric, the manufacturer, is over the top with a list price of $528. Apparently the list price is heavily discounted.

Now I will have to see if local code permits me to use it "feed it off" a 60 amp on the main panel.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

*Mounting Subpanel*

I am getting ready to mount the panel in the garage (but will wait to see if I get any responses to prior question re the panel I selected) and would appreciate some tips as to the mechanics of installing the actual panel.

The walls and ceiling are all semi finished. bu which I mean they are covered with drywall covered with a very thin layer of paint. I have been planning to run the circuits on the garage side of the wall with emt, which means a surface mounted panel. 

I should add that I have some experience, not a lot but some, with modifying some existing circuits by cutting drywall access holes, drilling through ceiling plates (not quite the right term) and using a fishing tape.

My main concern is not damaging the cabling inside the wall, and of course not zapping myself, as I will have to cut into the drywall near to the top of the main panel, which is approximately opposite of where I am thinking of hanging the sub panel. That raises an issue as to the proposed selection.

The place I have selected is roughly in the middle of the westerly wall of the garage. I don't know if local codes have any special requirements, but have read elsewhere that a panel is to be readily accessible. Although we never park our cars in the garage anymore, we are supposed to per Association rules and a later owner may want to park there. Is the location a problem?

Setting aside the issue of the location, I am going to be cutting have to cut into the drywall in that area in order to get drop the feeder cable down into the main. To avoid damaging the the existing cables and frying myself, I will shut off all power. Still, I can't shut off the power going to the power company side of the box and, even if it is shut off, I can I damage it? I don't know if it is shielded or in conduit. I expect it would enter form below and plan on making all cuts above the panel.

Once I pretty well know where I want to cut, I guess it would be safer not to use my drywall saw but to use the dremel's drywall attachment set to just pierce the sheetrock.

As I have access to a circuit tracer, I will attempt to mark where the circuits are and where not to cut before. I will also gut a smaller inspection hole a couple of feet above that area and try to see into it before cutting down there. My view may be obstructed by a fireblock. I dunno.

If you have any suggestions or criticisms, I have found them to be well worth hearing. TIA.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Cutting the drywal is easy.
Figure out where the studs on each side of the panel are located, use a level and mark the studs on each side.
You want to cut the drywall in the middle of the stud, then cut a level line across to remove the drywall.
Cut with a knife, and you will be well away from the main power cable.
After you are finished, then you can screww the drywall back in place, and tape and mud it.
You can do the same thing for the other side of the room.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> Cutting the drywal is easy.
> Figure out where the studs on each side of the panel are located, use a level and mark the studs on each side.
> You want to cut the drywall in the middle of the stud, then cut a level line across to remove the drywall.
> Cut with a knife, and you will be well away from the main power cable.
> ...


Thanks jbfan. Utility knife sounds good, Cut just deep enough to penetrate the sheet rock. If possible will drop by the city and check requirements for the panel's location, as well as a question scuba_dave once raised, which was that one inspector required a 60 A disconnect at the sub-panel and wouldn't sign off on where the feeders ran from a 60 A breaker on the main.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

The 100 amp main breaker in the subpanel will be used as a disconnect, because the 60 amp breaker in the main will protect it.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Klawman said:


> If possible will drop by the city and check requirements for the panel's location, as well as a question scuba_dave once raised, which was that one inspector required a 60 A disconnect at the sub-panel and wouldn't sign off on where the feeders ran from a 60 A breaker on the main.


 
As Joed said the 60a feed/100a disconnect is fine

If I remember correctly the problem the other person had is that they had the 100a disconnect & a 40a feed
The Inspector wanted a min 60a feed.....which meant changing the wires out


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> As Joed said the 60a feed/100a disconnect is fine
> 
> If I remember correctly the problem the other person had is that they had the 100a disconnect & a 40a feed
> The Inspector wanted a min 60a feed.....which meant changing the wires out


Went back and checked earlier on this thread. I misunderstood what you said, which was the problem was that the feed was only a 40a and one inspector in some jurisdiction interpreted code to reauire a 60a disconnect. jbfan reminded you back then that the issue was limited to a detached building so the issue doesn't apply to my attached garage.
You were thinking detached.



jbfan said:


> The 100 amp main breaker in the subpanel will be used as a disconnect, because the 60 amp breaker in the main will protect it.


Based on what you mentioned earlier, see the reply just posted to Scuba_Dave's immediate post, which I read as essentially saying the same as you. Also, as you earlier wrote, the 60a disconnect requirement is limited to detached structures.

Thanks

Went by the City Building Division this morning. Determined that the City follows the California Electric Code and it adopts the 2005 NEC. The city of Lake Forest, CA, will allow me to do the sub-panel myself and I may locate the panel on the side of the Garage since they assume I won't be parking in the garage and blocking access to the panel. I think I will still locate where it won't be blocked should cars be parked in it, which may be more convenient for an eventual owner. He doesn't need me to submit a plan to pull a permit. Probably because due to you the members of the DIY chatroom I sounded as though I knew what to do.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

*Locating Sup Panel*

I would appreciate your input on where to locate the sub panel and have tried to attach a diagram sans an actual circuit map to explain what I am doing.

My bench will be moved from the house wall to where it is dawn in. The 125A sub panel should be nest to the new bench location, which is on the opposite side of the garage from the 200 A service panel. I only intend to wire the sub for a 60 A feed.

First am I correct that the hot legs of the feed should be #6? Can the neural or ground be a smaller and what size?

I plan non 2 dedicated 240 outlets, lights as indicated on their separate 3 14 15A line, and 20A duplex receptacles around the perimeter walls. Should I use two separate circuits and alternate running them to outlets to lessen the chance of an overload?

The 3 fluorescents across the middle are hung from a large beam supporting the exterior wall of the second floor. The wall light by the door into the house is on a house circuit. I want to leave it there so it would be on if the main garage lighting circuit fails.

I am not concerned with an electric space heater in this climate zone.

This is not a working shop that will see heavy use but light use by a homeowner.

What has to be CFCI protected? All receptacles either 120 or 240?

Unless I am missing something, my big decision is on which wall to place the sub panel, which is why I also need to figure the size and type of wiring. If it is on the inside of the wall with the service panel on its exterior, I will only need a few feet of feeder. If I locate on the far side, that is at least another 35 feet of feeder. I am probably going to use emt and avoid fishing the lines.

One reason there aren't any lights in the middle of the front of the garage is the roll up garage doors. There should be sufficient light over the work bench area and most of the time if I am working in the garage it is daylight and I have the doors up.

SP1 on the diagram is where the panel goes if I mount it on the wall with the master. SP2 is where it "should" go. The dotted line indicates the route the feeder would take to get to SP2.

Everything comes down to cost and I want to be penny wise but not pound foolish.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

*Beware helpful Home Depot employees*

I was pricing materials at the HD and a guy that was supposed to know electrical was telling me I could use #8 AWG for a 60 Amp feed to my sub panel, when I told him I thought I needed #6.

Also, I told him I wanted to pull it through 1/2" emt for attached garage's sub panel, when and he suggested nb-8. Isn't pulling nb through conduit a violation. I think somewhere I saw that it was prohibited since insulation could tear.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

NMB can be in conduit but you need a much a larger conduit
It also can't be in any area where it is subject to being wet
Anything buried is considered a wet location
#8 cable (NMB) will only get you 40a
#8 THHN/THWN will only get you 50a


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> NMB can be in conduit but you need a much a larger conduit
> It also can't be in any area where it is subject to being wet
> Anything buried is considered a wet location
> #8 cable (NMB) will only get you 40a
> #8 THHN/THWN will only get you 50a


Thanks. I also learned to use the conduit fill calculator you posted about on another thread. Mine will be inside and dry.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

As an example 6-3 cable has a diameter of .612 inches & would need 1" conduit
Individual #6 wires & a #8 ground would only need 3/4"
Not a huge difference, but pulling cable thru conduit can be a pain

My run was over 100', so I picked up some wire lube which makes pulling the wire easier


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> As an example 6-3 cable has a diameter of .612 inches & would need 1" conduit
> Individual #6 wires & a #8 ground would only need 3/4"...not a huge difference
> Not a huge difference, but pulling cable thru conduit can be a pain
> 
> My run was over 100', so I picked up some wire lube which makes pulling teh wire easier


Yeah. I pulled thhn just a few feet for lights, which was relatively easy. I expect #6 to be a whole different story.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

There you go listening to the HD guy again.:whistling2:


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> There you go listening to the HD guy again.:whistling2:


"Lstening" as in "hearing" but not "believing". I only posted what he volunteered to demonstrate how poor the quality of the info passed out at HD can be.

A neighbor tells me that code requires a 30A dedicated receptacle next to the water heater platform, even though you have a gas water tank.

His house has one, but mine does not, even though they are the same model built in the same phase back in 1991. We are in California.

I noticed that his outlet isn't a duplex and if memory serves me it has a neutral slot that looks like a letter "T" with the base of the "T" pointed to the edge of the receptacle. I told him I believe it is a 20A receptacle and he says he probed it and it measured 30A. Does it sound like his house was wired for a water heater but with the a 20A receptacle on a line controlled by a 30A breaker? I have no idea if he has 12 AWG or 10, but I bet it is only 12.

Whatever he has, if I am required to have a dedicated electric water heater line I want to add it while I am doing the rest of the garage. If I am not required by code, I may still add it if I can stay within budget.

Is the line required? Thanks in advance.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Klawman said:


> A neighbor tells me that code requires a 30A dedicated receptacle next to the water heater platform, even though you have a gas water tank.
> 
> His house has one, but mine does not, even though they are the same model built in the same phase back in 1991. We are in California.
> 
> ...


Is your neighbor an electrician ? Inspector ?
Did he give you a Code reference ?


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Is your neighbor an electrician ? Inspector ?
> Did he give you a Code reference ?


I wouldn't call him an electrician, but he has an AA in electrical engineering and all the years I have known him he has been a manufacturer's rep for electrical equipment manufacturers such as GE, Southwire, and Greenlee. When it comes to basic electrical work, I wonder if he is up on things.

I looked in the 2008 code you linked online and saw nothing about a line being required for a Water Tank. I only saw the section requiring a single 110V 15A or 20A receptacle.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

OH NO !! An Engineer !! :laughing:

I've never heard of it
So unless its specific to your area....


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

I kind of thought as much. I will check with the city when I go for a permit, but I don't think it has any special requirement. Thanks.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

An electric water heater is never plugged into a receptacle.
They will always be hard wired.

Don't worry about things that were not installed in your house when it was built.
If it was required then, it would have been installed, otherwise you would not have been able to move in.
If the house was incomplete, then a CO would have never been given.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

That outlet is not for a water heater. If you are in California, then it is most likely an outlet for an electric car charger.

One of those mandates by your local gov't that costs everyone bucks, but provides little benefit.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> I noticed that his outlet isn't a duplex and if memory serves me it has a neutral slot that looks like a letter "T" with the base of the "T" pointed to the edge of the receptacle. I told him I believe it is a 20A receptacle and he says he probed it and it measured 30A.


I suspect you should disregard advice from your neighbor. You can't probe an outlet that does not have a load plugged into it and operating and get a 30 amp measurement. The breaker may say 30 amps on it. What he should have measured was voltage.

Anyway it is irrelevant. to satisfy your curiosity you can identify the receptacle here....

http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=69


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

jbfan said:


> An electric water heater is never plugged into a receptacle.
> They will always be hard wired.


Good point that I hadn't thought of.



kbsparky said:


> That outlet is not for a water heater. If you are in California, then it is most likely an outlet for an electric car charger.
> 
> One of those mandates by your local gov't that costs everyone bucks, but provides little benefit.


 
You bad - unfortunately not an unfair comment on the way the state wastes taxpayer money.



Stubbie said:


> I suspect you should disregard advice from your neighbor. You can't probe an outlet that does not have a load plugged into it and operating and get a 30 amp measurement. The breaker may say 30 amps on it. What he should have measured was voltage.
> 
> Anyway it is irrelevant. to satisfy your curiosity you can identify the receptacle here....
> 
> http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=69


 
As for measuring amps w/o a load, I wondered about that but didn't know if some fancy modern equipment couldn't do it. I know my inexpensive little meter cannot. 

Not sure, but it is easy enough to find out why he thought it was a 30 A line. 

If he has a 30 A breaker isn't his a fire risk? It definitely is a 20 A receptacle. Whether or not the wiring is 12 or 10 who knows until they pop the receptacle out for a look.


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