# Insulating Sidewalls of an Old House



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

He is partially correct. There are other things you can do to start with that are much more low hanging fruit. After that, you can delve a bit deeper, but insulating an other home's walls, without having an idea of how it dries out, can destroy a home.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Old homes have enjoyed many years of good (good for the house) ventilation, however energy costs have made heating them very expensive and I mean VERY. Your climate region, hot, cold, marine, need to be considered. However insulation in the walls is definitely a plus. The prime area of concern IMO would be vapor barriers and in recent years they have learned that allowing homes to dry in at least one direction is important. Turns out most of the concerns about vapor barriers were wrong, citation available.

I'm a retired energy auditor in a cold northern climate where thousands of old homes have benefited from adding insulation everywhere. With more details we can judge whether you have anything to be concerned about besides the fuel cost.

Bud


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

I live in Bailey North Carolina.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> Old homes have enjoyed many years of good (good for the house) ventilation, however energy costs have made heating them very expensive and I mean VERY. Your climate region, hot, cold, marine, need to be considered. However insulation in the walls is definitely a plus. The prime area of concern IMO would be vapor barriers and in recent years they have learned that allowing homes to dry in at least one direction is important. Turns out most of the concerns about vapor barriers were wrong, citation available.
> 
> I'm a retired energy auditor in a cold northern climate where thousands of old homes have benefited from adding insulation everywhere. With more details we can judge whether you have anything to be concerned about besides the fuel cost.
> 
> Bud


Sorry to get a hair off topic here, but could you say what the new finding was? Like, I shouldn't Tyvec AND vapor barier my house [In ALaska]? We're in the "project by project" process of pulling off all the siding and drywall to replace all the insulation and put on exterior Tyvec and interior vapor barrier sheets. IF we shouldn't be doing both it'd actually save us a lot of work heh (like I wouldn't pull the siding on one of the upstairs bedrooms, just the sheetrock, or I'd only pull the siding on the other bedroom and not the sheetrock, etc.)


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

LOL, unfortunately you may be in an exception zone, although Alaska has some strange coastal temperatures. 
Tyvec or house wrap should almost always be used. I'll explain the almost in a minute.
Vapor barriers can be omitted except for the far north and deep south. *This* link does a good job of explaining. But basically the need to dry is more important than trying to block the moisture.

I suspect my Maine is a bit warmer than your Alaska but I did siding and windows and opted for adding 3.5" of rigid insulation to the exterior. It allowed me to leave the meager fiberglass in place and add a thick layer over most of the thermal bridging from top of top plate to foundation. Probably close to r-40 walls now and really nice.

Start another thread if you would like more details.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Mystriss said:


> Sorry to get a hair off topic here, but could you say what the new finding was? Like, I shouldn't Tyvec AND vapor barier my house [In ALaska]? We're in the "project by project" process of pulling off all the siding and drywall to replace all the insulation and put on exterior Tyvec and interior vapor barrier sheets. IF we shouldn't be doing both it'd actually save us a lot of work heh (like I wouldn't pull the siding on one of the upstairs bedrooms, just the sheetrock, or I'd only pull the siding on the other bedroom and not the sheetrock, etc.)


What you are doing is what we do, it is fine if the wall can dry to the outside and the Tyvac gives you that, The biggest problem with the system was leaky windows so we drilled hole in the sheeting below the windows so it might dry. But with the new window install with the catch pan solves that so we no longer drill the holes. Other than leaky windows and shower I would not expect you to have a problem. Are you wrapping your outlet and switch boxes?


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> LOL, unfortunately you may be in an exception zone, although Alaska has some strange coastal temperatures.
> Tyvec or house wrap should almost always be used. I'll explain the almost in a minute.
> Vapor barriers can be omitted except for the far north and deep south. *This* link does a good job of explaining. But basically the need to dry is more important than trying to block the moisture.
> 
> ...


<3 Thank you.

We're sub-arctic zone 7 where I am, BUT we are considering an AC so that might change things. It's gonna take me a bit to get into the science in your link there. If I have any trouble/questions, I will start a new thread after I've had time to research it all


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> What you are doing is what we do, it is fine if the wall can dry to the outside and the Tyvac gives you that, The biggest problem with the system was leaky windows so we drilled hole in the sheeting below the windows so it might dry. But with the new window install with the catch pan solves that so we no longer drill the holes. Other than leaky windows and shower I would not expect you to have a problem. Are you wrapping your outlet and switch boxes?


... No, we haven't been wrapping the outlet boxes. We did replace all the windows with low-e vinyls though, we wrapped the rough with water proof membrane and the windows have ... well it's basically a miniature gutter along the tops. We have one original window left in the house, the one we're turning into a french door, so I have until next summer to figure it all out.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Moving towards a deep energy retrofit works well when you are doing most of the labor and you are attacking much of the work anyway. I was going after roof, siding, and windows anyway so adding the rigid layer wasn't that bad. Plus I wanted to experiment as I advise people here and in person.

I will watch for your thread.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Mystriss said:


> ... No, we haven't been wrapping the outlet boxes. We did replace all the windows with low-e vinyls though, we wrapped the rough with water proof membrane and the windows have ... well it's basically a miniature gutter along the tops. We have one original window left in the house, the one we're turning into a french door, so I have until next summer to figure it all out.



If you are not doing the boxes the rest is just a waste. 







https://www.homedepot.com/p/NuTek-1...ectrical-Box-for-WSW-100-Pack-WSWVB/207205359


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> I live in Bailey North Carolina.


How old is the house, is it balloon frame. best money to start with is in the attic and gaskets behind outlet covers.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I watched the video but didn't see it mention where they are. if in the deep south that would be a mistake. Even up to near the border the VB might not be the best.

One mistake they are making is implying that the VB is the air barrier. Those two functions are not the same as a plastic VB can often be compromised during installation or during the drywall and no longer function as an air barrier. 

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> I watched the video but didn't see it mention where they are. if in the deep south that would be a mistake. Even up to near the border the VB might not be the best.
> 
> One mistake they are making is implying that the VB is the air barrier. Those two functions are not the same as a plastic VB can often be compromised during installation or during the drywall and no longer function as an air barrier.
> 
> Bud


Air can get thru that insulation, what do you do at the floor and around boxes. They have gone nuts up here, if the insulators what to tape it there needs to be wood behind the tape, then they loose insulation.


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

As far as I know, the house was built around the year 1910.



Nealtw said:


> How old is the house, is it balloon frame. best money to start with is in the attic and gaskets behind outlet covers.


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

I'm so sorry to have thrown off topic the thread, but I can't help myself. Forgive me form8892.


Fair warning, folks in construction up here tend to be "old dogs," really stubborn about changing "how they been doin' it fer their whole damned life" - I literally spent 45 minutes on the phone watching YouTube videos with a guy regarding 24" OC studs in the new addition I'm planning - he was quite sure I was full of **** LOL (I was actually wrong, the engineer guy we ended up talkin to later said 16OC was better with the quakes, even if the insulation properties of 24OC were better.)

That said, the standard technique up here is to staple the VB and Tyvec to the studs. Every little staple hole is going to let air and moisture through though, maybe /IF/ you're using a machine that exactly centers the staples on the 2by, but no one is doing that around here so there's always some penetrations. 

Do ya'll tape over the staples to prevent those tiny penetrations then? We'll tape the seams of the different sheets - and we try to go horizontal rather than vertical, so there's typically one horizontal seam (two if you've got a higher ceiling,) but nothing over each (or well any, like I suppose it's around every three) stud staple line.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/questions-and-answers-about-air-barriers

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/questions-and-answers-about-air-barriers
> 
> Bud


And between the drywall and box, I guess you use gaskets.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> As far as I know, the house was built around the year 1910.


 Balloon framed houses were built with studs that went from the foundation to the attic, they are a fire hazard as any fire that gets in a wall gets to the attic in seconds, but besides that much cold air can be dragged up from the basement or crawl space and that can account for many of the drafts. 

Any time you open a wall and find that you should block them with a 30 min. fire rated product. It would be worth checking crawlspace and attic.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Mystriss said:


> I'm so sorry to have thrown off topic the thread, but I can't help myself. Forgive me form8892.
> 
> 
> Fair warning, folks in construction up here tend to be "old dogs," really stubborn about changing "how they been doin' it fer their whole damned life" - I literally spent 45 minutes on the phone watching YouTube videos with a guy regarding 24" OC studs in the new addition I'm planning - he was quite sure I was full of **** LOL (I was actually wrong, the engineer guy we ended up talkin to later said 16OC was better with the quakes, even if the insulation properties of 24OC were better.)
> ...


" Every little staple hole is going to let air and moisture through"
And that is one of the differences between an air barrier and a vapor barrier. An air barrier needs to be sealed where a few holes in a vapor barrier only allows an equal percentage of moisture through. I probably stated that poorly but basically a VB with 10% of the material missing is still 90% effective.

No citation at hand.
Bud


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

So what do you guys suggest to fix/upgrade first on this old house? 

attached you will see a picture of the house. I can take more pictures once I get a home and share them with you guys. this is a google picture.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

That much tree cover also doesn't help with drying. Also why insulation? Cold or want to save on heating cost? Also don't see any roof venting. Any insulation starts with sealing the air leaks. Most air leaks are through the wall and windows. These are also hardest to seal and costly, although if willing and able to remove plaster and lathe and drywall later, air sealing and insulation in old walls pays off big. There is no easy answer. If residing is possible, you can cover the outside with foam boards, paying absolute close attention to every joint and gap. From inside you could start with plaster gaps around electrical boxes and outlet covers. Removing base molding, you can seal under the plaster and floor. You can also seal some of the foundation to plate gaps from inside or outside (if outside, don't seal if you can't see this gap).

Blow in cellulose was popular but I'm against it these days. Blow in walls, after the fact, is blind install and cellulose can hold water way too long. Also not much roof overhang and that much gutter clogging trees ups the chances of leaks into the walls.
Good insulation needs to have good inspection and good practices go into it. Willy nilly stuffing or blowing in is waste of money and material and can cause trapped moisture.



Sorry but a second look at the photo shows no gutter? That means lots of water around the foundation and the house as well.


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

please see more picture links below:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nzZTfHw4TroNDp2q9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AtEBqu3THjdcBgrq7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/f8nG4PapP1MzmyyKA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nhPnxEbXq8aYcWN4A

let me know. thanks


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> please see more picture links below:
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/nzZTfHw4TroNDp2q9
> 
> ...


 We don't know what your wants or needs are. 

You have to do a list of all the things you want and all the things the house looks like it needs 



For now we can see a paint job. rot repair, maybe new roof and gutter on the back, a little re work on the roof structure to make gutter work.
Insulation,, roof ventilation?? re landscape around the house to expose foundation. 



What refinish does it need inside, condition of plumbing and HVAC, wall and cupboard and electrical. Whats happening in the crawlspace.


Once you have the list then you have to work out what the priorities are and what order things should be done so nothing has to be ripped apart twice. 



Usually you try to get it water tight before you do much on the inside. 



Do you expect to live in the house while work is being done, will you be doing most of the work?


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

I am planning to live in the house. I know the house needs lots of work, but due to lack of money and time I am planning to level the floor on one of the rooms, bath and kitchen. will re-do the whole bath. 

Also trying to put insulation (curren thread in question) on the walls, install an HVAC unit as it does not have one. 

Please advice on changing the electrical wires and any other suggestions, please feel free to do so. All the work will be done by a third party company as I do not have the expertise neither the time to do it. 

Thanks.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> I am planning to live in the house. I know the house needs lots of work, but due to lack of money and time I am planning to level the floor on one of the rooms, bath and kitchen. will re-do the whole bath.
> 
> Also trying to put insulation (curren thread in question) on the walls, install an HVAC unit as it does not have one.
> 
> ...



Get as much info about the electrical as you can and start a thread in electrical about that. 

Size of main breaker, maybe with pictures, type of wire, with ground or not, do the wires run thru the attic with porcelain insulators.
Will you level the floor from below or above?


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

They guy that I talked to, he is planning to remove the flooring and do it from above.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> They guy that I talked to, he is planning to remove the flooring and do it from above.



You have some open space around the side or back, there could be rot that should be checked, often the repair around the perimeter also fixes floor levels, if you level the floor from above the other fixes become more difficult. That is what I was talking about when I said list all the problems and look at all in some detail so you get them in the right order. Floors that sag in the middle may best be fixed from above but if they slope to one side that is often best fixed from below.


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## form8829 (Dec 1, 2015)

So you are saying the rot on the back left side of the house should be fixed first before starting to level the floors? This should help level up the floors in the house? 

I do forgot to mention that's one of the things that was on the list to fix.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

form8829 said:


> So you are saying the rot on the back left side of the house should be fixed first before starting to level the floors? This should help level up the floors in the house?
> 
> I do forgot to mention that's one of the things that was on the list to fix.


 If you have room enough in the crawlspace I would set up a laser level and go around and measure up to the sub floor all around the perimeter and bearing walls in the center. That would tell you where any problem areas are and if they are the cause of the floor in question.
I would map and record all the readings. You can also poke at the wood with an awl or ice pick or even a sharp screwdriver and soft would might indicate rot. Then when you are down there you also have a look for what material is used for water and sewer pipes and their general condition.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Your questions are really hard to answer. The house looks like on the cusp of demolition if wanting to upgrade it to some kind of modern standards. The rot damage photo seems to show no underlayment, example. It looks like it may be built with some braces on the studs and sided directly on the studs. As such, it will be very air leaky house.
Why hvac system when budget is tight? Window ac, esp frederick, is very good as far as noise is concerned.
Photo of the sloping floor and the fix? People usually want to fix any kind of slope. With limited budget, I believe this is a mistake. 



I think what you should do is make a list of fixes. Then call at least 3 carpentry companies and get a estimate. For example, sloping floor can be lived with, just depends on your tolerance. If you stand in that room, do you feel off balance, example? Don't just think it must be level. 



After all's said and done, house must be able to stand over time. As such, you should inspect the roof (although dented but looks ok in the photos - seems to be copper roof, and love the chimney...) and do something about the ground around the foundation. The masonry part seems to be too close to the ground which makes the wood parts above vulnerable. Siding can be somewhat scraped and painted but such jobs will not last. Heavy tree cover is one reason. Once you fix the bones of the house, you start spending money on baths, floors, etc.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Another thing is mice and such have easy access to the wall cavities now. After insulation, it will be harder to find them and greater damage. Wood siding is very close to ground, so easier for pests.
You might think about cutting off some rows of siding, add sheet metal to the studs overlapping the foundation by 3" or so, then replace with 2x6 or 2x8 pressure treated lumber as a water table band. Caulking the joints to air seal. Z flashing between the 2x band and siding for physical overlapped drain flashing. Under budget, 2x can be regular lumber and even flashing can be hand bent. Flashing does not have to look pretty.

If you bevel the top of the 2x and add another1x4 as a cap, even better. Water will follow this and kick away from the foundation instead of follow down the plane of the wall.


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