# Head gasket project



## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

People,

Well, Im replacing the head gasket on my 87 Sunbird GT, got into the valves and redoing all of them, and so far got 2 questiomns for the people here:

1) The manual says spec for the spring free standing height is min 2.1". Mine are that minus 2-3mm. I know, mm vs inches, stupid manual. Automotive world speaks metric but when they have specs they go to inches. Insanity. So, do you think this is a big deal worth buying new springs? Not that I would know where to get them. 

2) While the engine bay is so freed up with head/manifold out of the way, I figured I would install new main heater hose connection, going from back of Water pump ON BLOCK, to a steel "manifold" which tees off to heater and back to radiator. Thing is, I removed hose and both flared ends of those steel tubes were pretty corroded. I cleaned them up a bit with first 30 grit paper, then about 100 grit. Removed all the corroded/flaked off rust/mineral deposits, etc. Gonna buy new hoses but is there any kind of sealant/paste/even plumbers rector seal that I could apply to those pitted flared ends of the steel tubing to ensure that when I push on the new hose it would help seal up any otherwise non even surface which could cause a leak?

More questions to come for sure.
Thanks, People.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Is it an aluminum head? If so, you may be getting an electro-galvanic reaction to the steel fitting. Is it possible to change the fitting to brass? As far as the springs, how did you measure 2.1"?


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

If I pulled a head, only done it once, I surely would not reinstall with having the valves ground at a machine shop. I would let them answer that question.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

This measurement, was it installed, or in hand, springs?

That dimension in the manual should say which way.

And they make valve spring shims to change the dimension. 

As stated a real valve grind shop, is where to get these serviced.

A beginner or even experienced DIYER is not qualified to do the job to the exactness required. 

I have done it several times myself, but am still not a professional grind shop.

As for the hose fittings, use a LITTLE rtv sealant.

Use the RTV sealant sparingly, to coat the fitting, and install the hose very soon, to allow the RTV to seep into all the pits, and make a "gasket", to seal them. 

You may be worrying about nothing on those measurements, if the difference is in MM. 

As that is splitting hairs, and if the valves don't leak, they should last another 50,000 miles. 

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

chandler48 said:


> Is it an aluminum head? If so, you may be getting an electro-galvanic reaction to the steel fitting. Is it possible to change the fitting to brass? As far as the springs, how did you measure 2.1"?


I actually had a precision micro ruler in inches. I also converted to metric and used my metric ruler. Each inch is 2.54cm. easy. In the end, I reported in mm. 

It is an alum head. No way to change fitting as the back of the water pump is part of the engine block. I didnt have any issues with my sunbird when accelerating into high rpm's, which indicate for bad springs (according to a few web sources I found out meanwhile). Might just keep them.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> This measurement, was it installed, or in hand, springs?
> 
> That dimension in the manual should say which way.
> 
> ...


Ed, measurement was as indicated in the Haynes manual specs for these springs. They are to be taken as free standing (on the bench). Good tip on the RTV sealant. Thats what i will do. No other choice. Ridge is pitted but it is part of the block. Valve surfaces are pitted. Need valve grinding paste. I might try it- heck, have the suction cups, and paste. It will be fun, right? 

But I agree, if it looks like Im not getting anywhere a machine shop is a good idea.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Meanwhile, what is the PROPER placement of a hose clamp for radiator? Right ON the ridge of the tube (flanged/ridged portion), or in front of it a bit? There has to be a right way, and a wrong way.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> Meanwhile, what is the PROPER placement of a hose clamp for radiator? Right ON the ridge of the tube (flanged/ridged portion), or in front of it a bit? There has to be a right way, and a wrong way.


The proper position for the clamps is between the mounting flange, or block in your situation, and the ridge on the end of the nipple.

If you clamp on the ridge, there is a chance that the clamp and hose will slip off, and cause major overheating. 

I advise you to take this head into the shop, and have a pro do the valve job, practice on another JUNK head sometime.

Because if you do not get the angles perfect, you risk ruining the head, and the valves.

I'm assuming ( a mistake, I know), that you have already taken the valves and springs off the head, did you know that valves are honed specific to each seat, and if you get them mixed up, you just bought new all over again, if you try to run it with misplaced assembly?

A shop setup for grinding, will have all the necessary organization to keep everything in proper order, and do the assembly correctly, so why spend your money twice, just hire this out, for safety, and saving the money. 

I practiced on old junk parts, before I attempted my first real valve grind, and got the basics down before wasting money on expensive parts. 

If anything is wrong, you can create a "hot" spot, on the seat, or valve, which will cause a premature failure of that component, which will, maybe damage your engine more, and you don't want that. 

And the paste that you refer to, is just for seating the valve to it's seat, it won't repair anything that is "pitted" that you referred to earlier.

Do think about getting the "head shop" on the job.


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

AS always, Ed, good perspective and advice. So valuable. Yes, I am tempted, but I know a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. And one can not be good at everything. I will call a place nearby tomorrow (brought the same head to them to resurface years ago) and see what they can do and cost. 

But dont worry, yes, I studies quite a bit before this, and understand each valve goes in its own stop, so I have numbered them as well as placed on a dedicated bench for positioning . Yes, paste is not good enough. I will bring it in soon. You got me here, this time, Ed....LOL


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Update: valve shop today told me they must resurface my head no matter what (when doing the valves). Even when told them I checked it for flatness and it was flat. No warpage. He insisted it was always a good idea to do it because it allows the head to "seat" better. Really?? 

I have not much choice, they have been around for 30+ years. They did my car in 2002. There is no other cylinder shop in my area. They SHOULD know what they are doing (right?).


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Be careful about resurfacing too much off, this can cause interference between the piston top, and a open valve at times, which would be a disaster.

there is very little clearance in there already, due to needing to get a higher compression pressure, to make the fuel/ air mix, easier to ignite. 

Does this shop realize that it was surfaced once before, or are they going to advise you to get thicker head gaskets, or double up on them?

That's a midnight auto repair trick to sell an old beater, it'll run for a little while, then quit.

And since you're planning to drive it another million miles, the cheap fix ain't desirable.

If the resurfacing is going to cause interference, your only option is to but a new head.

There is a place in Florida that casts new ones to the original manufacturers specs.

If you need one I can look it up again for you. 

I had to buy 2 new ones for an 87 Bronco II about 6 years ago.

They have a flaw, from the Mitsubishi factory, where they crack if ever overheated, and the owner overheated it too many times.


ED 

As far as them knowing what they are doing, are you sure that the same owner / manager / technicians, have been there this long.

Any of them might be a newbee, fresh out of school.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Well, Ed, I did tel them on the phone that they were the ones that already resurfaced it years ago. Guess al I can do is bring it to them, and remind them again of that, then see what they say once they have it in front of them. Not much choice. Then, I will advise as to if we need to search for another head.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Resurface head they said. But if you checked it and it was good, go there and have them prove it. If they balk, they are just doing it because they didn't check it and are just doing it. So when you go there and they show ya, ya might learn something. If they have to shave the head, ask them how much they took off so you can put a shim under it. I have done that multiple times on hard to get heads or older ones. Here's what I always have the machine shops do on a valve job. Pressure check for cracks. If valve guides are bad, install new ones. Buy the head set (Fel-Pro) and take the valve seals to them. It's a lot cheaper. Check for straightness and warpage. And of coarse and valve grind. Very important. once you get your head back, you want to make sure the valve keepers are set correctly. Set up head so valves can open with out hitting bench. Hit the valve directly on the valve stem top, not retainer, to set the keepers. Valve should open momentarily and close. I smack the valve stem top 2 or 3 times to satisfy myself. If the keepers are not set correctly, the valve will drop and boom goes the engine. This is just insurance to not drop a valve. :vs_cool:


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Brainbucket said:


> Resurface head they said. But if you checked it and it was good, go there and have them prove it. If they balk, they are just doing it because they didn't check it and are just doing it. So when you go there and they show ya, ya might learn something. If they have to shave the head, ask them how much they took off so you can put a shim under it. I have done that multiple times on hard to get heads or older ones. Here's what I always have the machine shops do on a valve job. Pressure check for cracks. If valve guides are bad, install new ones. Buy the head set (Fel-Pro) and take the valve seals to them. It's a lot cheaper. Check for straightness and warpage. And of coarse and valve grind. Very important. once you get your head back, you want to make sure the valve keepers are set correctly. Set up head so valves can open with out hitting bench. Hit the valve directly on the valve stem top, not retainer, to set the keepers. Valve should open momentarily and close. I smack the valve stem top 2 or 3 times to satisfy myself. If the keepers are not set correctly, the valve will drop and boom goes the engine. This is just insurance to not drop a valve. :vs_cool:


Caution here, use only a mallet, never a STEEL hammer.


ED


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I use a brass hammer. I should have included that.:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Called a 2nd shop farther away and they said same thing- to shave off just a tad. I brought it in to my shop nearby and tech said the head looked good, has plenty of metal there. I gave him the valve seals from my felpro set. I didnt ask if they did a pressure test, good point, so I will call them Monday and ask. 

I dont understand the idea of "valve keepers set correctly". Dont they just sit on top , just below the rocker arms? I mean, how would it make any difference- there is no other way to place them, right? 

Also, when pouring in the motor oil, I should drive the car for say, a few days, drain, them pour in the good oil. Spec is 5w-30. Can I put in say, 0w-20 , lighter oil at startup to have it work into bearings better, before it is drained?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

The valve keepers are 2 little wedge shaped circular clips that fit around the stem, and into a groove in the stem.

Sometimes the keeper, gets "cocked" a little, and not seated in the groove properly, and the hitting with a soft hammer ( brass, plastic, rubber, wooden, etc), will jostle an imperfect set one enough to have it release, and DROP the valve.

You want to test the keeper, to see if it is going to DROP the valve, if it DROPS the valve when running, you just bought a new engine, because this will destroy it. 

And tapping with a brass hammer is cheap in perspective.

unless you have the lighter weight oil on hand, there is no reason to use it instead, just spend your money on the factory recommended weight.


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

I get it now, Ed. I will tap with a rubber mallet. I had no idea about this! I will tap it 2-3 times and make sure the valve drops (lifts??) nicely. Youd think they should do this, right? maybe they will. I will ask/verify. 

Oh- the gasket kit included 8 -O rings. Where would they go?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> I get it now, Ed. I will tap with a rubber mallet. I had no idea about this! I will tap it 2-3 times and make sure the valve drops (lifts??) nicely. Youd think they should do this, right? maybe they will. I will ask/verify.
> 
> Oh- the gasket kit included 8 -O rings. Where would they go?


Shops are often mass production lines, where everyone ASSUMES that another did something, when in actuality, no one did it, so it's wise practice to verify things yourself. 

As for the O rings, the kit is a kit for more than one specific engine, so you are bound to get a few redundant, unnecessary parts. 

O rings usually go in spots where the oil is pumped through the block, through the heads, to lubricate the rocker assembly, check your manual for the exact positions for them.

And if you have extras, see the above paragraph. 

Hoping to hear that the car runs like a Striped APE once more.:biggrin2:


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> Shops are often mass production lines, where everyone ASSUMES that another did something, when in actuality, no one did it, so it's wise practice to verify things yourself.
> 
> As for the O rings, the kit is a kit for more than one specific engine, so you are bound to get a few redundant, unnecessary parts.
> 
> ...


Sorry for ,late reply, been bust, but thanks, Ed. Yes, found out those o rings are for the FI version. Mine is a single TBI. Extra parts/gaskets.

Update: instructions for the 10 bolts say to determine if any head bolts passs through coolant passage ways and coat them with some RTV sealant. How can one determine this?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Look the head over, before installation, the bolt passages that go through the cooling system will have different casting in them.

Most bolt holes are smooth bored through solid iron / aluminum, but those that are wider to allow the coolant to be pumped through are more sand-cast in appearance.

Chances are that this is not your case. 

Simple observation, not something that a lot of people are equipped to do, but us DIYERS are. 

Follow the proper torque pattern in the manual when installing the head, and whatever you do, don't drop it together with the block.

Make double sure that the gasket stays in the proper place, if it slips any, it could be a leak, just waiting to hit you in the behind.


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

I followed instructions. I cleaned (chased) bolt holes for a few bits of dirt to make sure all was clean before I installed/tightened bolts. So I started turning the torque wrench per manual. First, it says torque to 18 ft lbs. Then, 60 degrees for the entire sequence, and repeat 2 more times. Then I noticed one corner bolt was not feeling "tight". I checked and the base of the bolt was not even touching the top of the camshaft carrier (carrier goes on TOP of the head). Geeez. 

So, being near the end of all the sequences I simply turned that bolt until it matched the torque of the other bolts, which was about 80 ft lbs. Think I messed it all up, people? I must have not cleaned that corner bolt hole well enough. Dont know how else it could have happened. Anyway, gotta continue, I guess, and see what happens. I hope I didnt screw it all up.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

On "blind" bolt holes, you can get something in the bottom of the hole, water, oil, dirt, trash, etc.

That will cause it to get tight before it is at the proper torque, and cause problems.

it is wise to clean and dry all of them with a long swab, like those at the doctors office, in the jar on the side table. 

They are available at pharmacies, online, and a few other places.

In a pinch you can use a phillips screwdriver, and a rag. 

And if this occurred, you might not have the head properly seated, and might cause premature failure of the gasket. 

start again, or hope for the best, your choice, but I would start again before running the engine, but I'm a bit perfectionistic. 

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Almost have alll put together on my car but ran into trouble- the mating surface on the coolant housing meeting the opposite aluminum coolant "manifold" goes on with 3 bolts, and one bolt thread somehow mysteriously has a thread that is mangled up.

The bolt will not thread into it nicely. Visually, one can tell that the first say, 1-2 thread turns are the culprit. Dang!! How it happened beats me as I simply unscrewed that bolt upon removal. So, should I buy a metric tap set and tap it? I dont know the pitch, but I can buy the set, and test one tap onto a nut that fits onto the bolt, then tap it. 

Alternative: buy a bolt that has a self tap "cut" on the tip, not sure if that is a bad idea. Tap set is cheap. Advice appreciated. I am STUCK!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

papereater said:


> Almost have alll put together on my car but ran into trouble- the mating surface on the coolant housing meeting the opposite aluminum coolant "manifold" goes on with 3 bolts, and one bolt thread somehow mysteriously has a thread that is mangled up.
> 
> The bolt will not thread into it nicely. Visually, one can tell that the first say, 1-2 thread turns are the culprit. Dang!! How it happened beats me as I simply unscrewed that bolt upon removal. So, should I buy a metric tap set and tap it? I dont know the pitch, but I can buy the set, and test one tap onto a nut that fits onto the bolt, then tap it.
> 
> Alternative: buy a bolt that has a self tap "cut" on the tip, not sure if that is a bad idea. Tap set is cheap. Advice appreciated. I am STUCK!


What markings are on the head of the bolt, there might be info you can look up, I think you want to tap it


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> What markings are on the head of the bolt, there might be info you can look up, I think you want to tap it


At work, cant look at bolt until tonight, so I will let you know then........thanks.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

There are "thread chaser" tools, made for cleaning up damaged threads.

I would get one of those for the size that you need.

A set would be a nice addition to your tool kit, if you want to. 

If worse comes to worse, a " heli-coil" repair might get it on the mend, but only as a last resort, because that's the final stage before having to buy a new part, that you are trying to save. 

A regular tap can work, but it's actually made to add new threads to things, so be extra careful.


ED


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> There are "thread chaser" tools, made for cleaning up damaged threads.
> 
> I would get one of those for the size that you need.
> 
> ...


Cast iron pipe plug drilled and tapped to the right size is the best.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

An example of Thread Chaser set

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwaben-1...805732&hash=item362995e25a:g:8mcAAOSw5yBanrTf

ED


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Nealtw said:


> Cast iron pipe plug drilled and tapped to the right size is the best.


What?

Details please.


ED


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> What?
> 
> Details please.
> 
> ...


Never seen that, that's what we used when we pulled the head studs out of a VW engine. Drill it out and tap it for a tapered pipe plug. cut the top off flush and drill and tap it for the stud. We hadn't heard of coils back then :wink2:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

So, if I take a bit that fits the thread size from this chaser set, how will the bit thread through the first 2 turns of the basically non existent thread to reach the deeper "still intact" threads? Do I just stick it in and start turning hoping it will "find its way"?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> So, if I take a bit that fits the thread size from this chaser set, how will the bit thread through the first 2 turns of the basically non existent thread to reach the deeper "still intact" threads? Do I just stick it in and start turning hoping it will "find its way"?


Chaser is tapered, and engages the damaged part, after getting a "bite" on the better deeper part.

And worth every penny, when you consider the option, of buying a new manifold, or block instead.


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

I get it now, chaser is the way to go.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Car is on the road! Running well. BUT, geez, not it produced a puff of blue smoke upon start up. Also, I was afraid of this, also upon every time I start from a dead stop. Also noticing smell inside the cab. That is puzzling. I torqued the exhaust nuts to spec. 

I will keep a log of how much oil it consumes over the next month. A bit disappointing. Gotta be rings, right?


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

One puff of blue smoke does not make an oil burner, could mean that there was a bit of oil, or assembly lube that got into the firing chamber, and just burned off. 

As for the smell, did you inspect the exhaust donuts for possible burn out, or crud that was not supposed to be there.

Also they could easily be mis-aligned, and cause problems. 

Keep a watch on it, for blue smoke at startup, and at leaving a stoplight, or anything else leaking, gaskets, O rings, and things.

ED


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