# Concrete Lintel vs Double 2x10's



## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

You hired an architect and you have plans.
Why are you asking strangers on the internet?
Do you think the architect is incompetent?
I see people who ask this question because they bought a sledge hammer and they have a weekend to kill...
Did you ask the architect this question?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Ron6519 said:


> You hired an architect and you have plans.
> Why are you asking strangers on the internet?
> Do you think the architect is incompetent?
> I see people who ask this question because they bought a sledge hammer and they have a weekend to kill...
> Did you ask the architect this question?


I think I've asked my architect about a dozen questions, most resulting in revisions to the plans because I noticed things that just didn't seem right to me. That being said, he's not incompetent at all, quite the opposite.... but everyone misses things. Noone is perfect. I can easily admit I don't know everything, and I'd rather run in by a few people before I annoy him to make another change.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

If it ain't broke don't fix it...


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm adding new windows as well as making the existing ones a bit taller. Because of that I am going to have to upgrade all the headers to double 2x10's as per the architect's drawings.

I will use pressure treated for the headers, as well as pressure treated to box out the rough opening in the block.

What holds a wooden header in place in the concrete block? Is it really just mortared in? I mean I can't toe nail it into place obviously. Is that how people do it in a case like this?

Any Floridians out there who are familiar with raised ranches and this style of building?


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

WOW!
For 40 years there was 2x8 headers with no problems. Now all of sudden a 2x8 is not good enough and a 2x10 is needed.?

Do yourself a favor and sandwich a 1/2 piece of plywood between the 2 by's for the header. This will make them the same thickness as the 2 by framing.

The door at the left in the top picture, the header is correct. The other headers will be tied in the same manner except the ends will rest on the block.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

ron45 said:


> WOW!
> For 40 years there was 2x8 headers with no problems. Now all of sudden a 2x8 is not good enough and a 2x10 is needed.?
> 
> Do yourself a favor and sandwich a 1/2 piece of plywood between the 2 by's for the header. This will make them the same thickness as the 2 by framing.
> ...


Hey Ron yeah that's just the only part of the 1st floor there where the wall is framed out in wood and not a block wall. That part I'm not touching. It's areas in block wall where new window openings will be cut. A double 2x10 header and plywood in between won't fill up an area about 8in deep on top of the block... but I guess it need to anyway?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

I spoke to a head honcho at my twp's construction dept over the phone. He said that my entire area is built that way, Florida style raised ranches or bi levels because of the high water table there. He said the wood headers in the block is common, but that metal flashing needs to be between the wood and the concrete or it will fail inspection. Then I asked about how to go about fastening the wood headers to the block, like I don't feel comfortable with them just sitting there.... I told him the most that can be done is toenailing the headers just to the double top plate above and then maybe some mortar all around but it will touch the wood then. 

He told me to bring my plans in and some pics and to come talk tomorrow morning.

Does anyone have experience with this particular setup/situation?


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

To answer the question in full, we would need a picture of the outside.?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

ron45 said:


> To answer the question in full, we would need a picture of the outside.?



How's this? Don't mind the blue tape... that's how far down the new window would be.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Personally, I like concrete lintels for an application like that. They just simplify things IMPO. The downside is they're far heavier, they cost more, and they can be hard to find, depending on your locale........


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Don't remove the outside.
The header is flush with inside wall it does not have to fill the cavity if you don't mess with the outside. The joist will rest on the headers and abut to the outside piece.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

Well, I went to the twp and spoke with someone in person. He was an awesome guy, very knowledgeable and patietnt with me. As far as the wood headers go, in my town I have to put metal flashing between the headers and the concrete if the wood is not pressure treated. He doesn't recommend using pressure treated on the headers, though, since most if not all pressure treated comes pretty green, not as in color but in moisture content. He said they would shrink and maybe even warp over time... so I'll just be doing regular 2x10's with the metal flashing. The box rough out within the opening will be pressure treated with no need for flashing on that. As far as fastening the headers in place, he did say just the toenailing above to the top plate and some mortar around the edges is common and sufficient.

He agreed concrete lentils on the smaller windows would prob be a little better way to do it... if I was leaving the exterior as it is. I do plan on bring the siding down to cover the first floor, though, so really the wood headers are fine. He did say the 8ft + span on the larger windows is pushing it with a concrete lentil. I would have to get the kind that has a metal plate running all the way through, sort of like a steel I-beam. It's alot of work and super heavy like jomama said.

All in all it was everything I was thinking pretty much, I just wanted to hear it from someone with actual experience and knowledge. I'm no expert, just a diy-er. The Internet is great, and there's so much information out there... sometimes too much. It makes it hard to figure out which way to go on something like this when you have no actual hands on experience with it and stuff.

Anyway, he also said the idea of rebar in the sides of the openings, which I mentioned to him but is not on the plans, is not needed for code or anything, but he feels that makes sense too. I read somewhere on some other forum or post, or maybe even saw it on YouTube, that the way to do the sides is to knock some of the webbing out in between the cut block, stick a #5 piece of rebar in the the height of the opening, and fill with concrete completely. Since all the weight is being transferred to those sides from the header, it's a good idea to make that as solid as possible. He said it's not a code thing, but every mason or contractor has their own method... some better than others. I like this approach myself, just makes sense.


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

for me, i'd see if i could swap out the wood for 3" I-beam. just stick some tar paper between the steel and concrete.

why do you need 2x10's for window headers?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

concrete_joe said:


> for me, i'd see if i could swap out the wood for 3" I-beam. just stick some tar paper between the steel and concrete.
> 
> why do you need 2x10's for window headers?



I will look into that, I am going to speak to the architect now that I have all my facts in order.

Beats me, as far as the 2x10's for the windows. That's not normal? That's what the architect calls for in the plans downstairs. Upstairs, all the window openings, even the small ones, have 2x12's in there... not saying the architect called for those there, just the house was originally built that way. I thought it was normal and never really looked into it.

The house was built with double 2x12's all upstairs, and double or triple 2x10's downstairs... all as far as windows are concerned. Interior door headers are all double 2x10's, even in non-load bearing walls.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Because that's what fills the gap, can you say no cripples......


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## concrete_joe (Oct 6, 2014)

with a the steel as the header carrying the load to the sides, you dont need the hefty 2x10's, etc. but as noted, if it fills the gap just right then no cripples are needed, or if 10" is too tall you can rip them down to size, etc.


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

ron45 said:


> Because that's what fills the gap, can you say no cripples......



I know, right? I didn't think that looked right at all. I was going to put a single top and bottom plate first and then the jack studs in between the two.... not jack studs in first and then top and bottom plates in after.

That would make sense, right?


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## sonnaps (Jul 21, 2015)

sonnaps said:


> I know, right? I didn't think that looked right at all. I was going to put a single top and bottom plate first and then the jack studs in between the two.... not jack studs in first and then top and bottom plates in after.
> 
> That would make sense, right?


Wait, I just realized you were talking about the lack of cripples in the header... yeah, I think that was fine though. Those 2x8's in there pretty much filled the gap for the top plates above to rest on it close to fully, like off by an 1"+ or so. The new 2x10's will probably do the same. I will make sure to bring iu out to fill completely with some 1" ply sandwiched in between the 2x10's or whatever, though.

I was referring to the boxed out part of the window opening. They had put double 2x4 top and bottom plates it seems, but the jack studs are to the sides and not in between.


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