# Should use 60amp or 100amp sub-panel?



## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I bought a 100a main breaker panel & fed it with 60a for my pool cabana

You would need to add up the power draw of everything that will be on at once to determine if 60a will suffice
Keep in mind that that is 60a 240v of power

You do need conduit to protect the wire any where it may be subject to physical damage


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

For your first question, if he is considering future upgrades at all, I would definitely install the 100a panel. Considering what all you say he wants to put in there, I'd actually go ahead and go for the 100a anyhow. I don't recommend running unprotected wire outdoors, but if you decide to go that route, make sure the wire you buy is rated for direct sunlight. Also it should be at least 10 feet above ground level unless it's going over a driveway or fence. I'm not sure about the driveway, but I think it's 18 feet. For a fence, it should be 10 feet above the top of the fence.

It's been a while since I've done voltage drop calculations, but I believe 6 gauge wire is big enough to run 100a on, not sure about the conduit size though.

Remember that, for a sub panel, you need to run 4 wire cable. That's two hot lines, a grounded(or neutral) wire, and a grounding wire. Inside your sub panel, the grounding and neutral buses cannot be bonded like they can inside a main panel. The reason for this is because electricity always tries to find the easiest path to earth ground. If your neutral and grounding buses are bonded, then your grounding wire can become that easiest path and thus electrifying anything that wire is attached to.


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

I would consider putting a separate service at the garage.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

My sub was 60a & #6 is rated at 55a - allowed to upsize to a 60a breaker
So you will need bigger wire for a 100a panel
It is better to run a bigger panel/wire, rather then pay to upgrade later


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

You're right, I didn't double-check my math. #6 is too small for a 100a sub panel, however, you said it is allowed to use a 60a breaker on a wire rated for 55a? I thought you could only oversize your wire like that was when it was on a motor circuit. If you used type THHN wire, then the #6 size is rated for 75a and everything would be kosher.

Getting back to the OP, according to table 310.16 in the NEC, you would need a #3 THHN wire for a 100a service. That's unless Scuba Dave is right and you can go down a size, that's not something I know about though.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Atroxx said:


> You're right, I didn't double-check my math. #6 is too small for a 100a sub panel, however, you said it is allowed to use a 60a breaker on a wire rated for 55a? I thought you could only oversize your wire like that was when it was on a motor circuit. If you used type THHN wire, then the #6 size is rated for 75a and everything would be kosher.
> 
> Getting back to the OP, according to table 310.16 in the NEC, you would need a #3 THHN wire for a 100a service. That's unless Scuba Dave is right and you can go down a size, that's not something I know about though.


 There are few items if you are on 2008 NEC code it will really change your plans a bit if not checked in ahead of the time.

I do understand that you will read the chart for 60°C and 75°C those two are most common rating for the conductors however it will affect depending on which type of conductors you will be using and do not use the 90°C rating chart that is only used for derating.

I know it may confuse some peoples when you look at the conductor size and tempture rating.

I will give you quick facts here 

The following items are on 60°C
• Romex ( becarefull with this there are few ratings on this one )
• UF cable
• SE(*R*) cable { only for *Feeder* useage like from Main breaker box to subpanel }

The following items are on 75°C

• THHN/THWN conductors
• SE cable from meter socket to MAIN breaker only
• Romex { heed this part carefull the older verison are only rated for 60°C and new one are rated at 90°C but restricted to 75°C rating }


The following items are on 90°C 
• few conductors as listed on 75°C but only used for derating so just basically not used here at all { it have very limited use for this rating or higher }

Merci,Marc


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Atroxx said:


> Getting back to the OP, according to table 310.16 in the NEC, you would need a #3 THHN wire for a 100a service. That's unless Scuba Dave is right and you can go down a size, that's not something I know about though.


No - not downsizing really that I am talking about
The #6 wire is rated for 55a, since there isn't as 55a breaker you are allowed to install a 60a

If the wire was rated 50a you would need to install a 50a breaker


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> No - not downsizing really that I am talking about
> The #6 wire is rated for 55a, since there isn't as 55a breaker you are allowed to install a 60a
> 
> If the wire was rated 50a you would need to install a 50a breaker


Yeah, I got that. I knew 55a wasn't a standard size breaker, but I thought your wire had to be rated higher than your OC protection unless it was on a circuit dedicated to a motor and nothing else. You seem to know more about what you're doing than I do, so I'm not trying to argue, I'm just a little confused here.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Atroxx said:


> Yeah, I got that. I knew 55a wasn't a standard size breaker, but I thought your wire had to be rated higher than your OC protection unless it was on a circuit dedicated to a motor and nothing else. You seem to know more about what you're doing than I do, so I'm not trying to argue, I'm just a little confused here.


You are not supposed to use a breaker rated for more than the wire. If you do so you can overheat the wire causing a fire hazard. Upgrade your wire.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I've been trying to figure out the exact NEC code that allows this

Under 230.90 it states that an OC must have a "setting or rating not higher then the allowable ampacity of the conductor"

I'm not sure if this is the code that allows this - but all I have found so far & others seem to agree that a 60a on #6 is allowed. Some codes I know (familiar with), others I have to look up, other info is based on feedback from multiple Inspectors, electricians etc

If anyone has further info on the exact code I'd like to know


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Section 240.4 states the same thing
Section (B) refers to the use of the next higher standard OC device (800a or less)
There are conditions to be met - not a _multioutlet_ branch circuit, not greater then 800a
I do know that this is not allowed on 15a & 20a house circuits

So I think I found the correct code reference
And no - my wires do not need to be upgraded from #6 on a 60a breaker
All of my work is inspected - & my inspector is very thorough


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Dave,
Don't forget fire codes come into play as well as nec and irc codes. Unfortunately some codes also contradict each other and it is then often left up to the building official to decide. I am by no means an electrical engineer but what I have found to be enforced through experience is the wire must be sufficient for the load. I also want to point out that the building code is the bare minimum safe requirement. It is always better to build above code then simply meet it, especially when electricity is invloved.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I've been trying to figure out the exact NEC code that allows this



240.4(B) is what you need.

Also, #6 is rated at 65 A, it is only NM-B or UF that's limited to 55 A.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Dave,
> Don't forget fire codes come into play as well as nec and irc codes. Unfortunately some codes also contradict each other and it is then often left up to the building official to decide. I am by no means an electrical engineer but what I have found to be enforced through experience is the wire must be sufficient for the load. I also want to point out that the building code is the bare minimum safe requirement. It is always better to build above code then simply meet it, especially when electricity is invloved.


I ran a 60a 240v sub panel for a 10a 240v pool pump & 2 lights
If that isn't above code I don't know what is
Not one Inspector, but several Inspectors AND electricians all stated that the wire & setup met code. I actually upsized the ground wire from what was required

I also know I have enough extra power out there to run any hand tools I need. Maybe even insulate & install an AC/heat if I end up in the dog house w/the wife :laughing:

Thanks for the confirmation on the code reference Inphase
I do like to know the code reference when possible
I was actually going by the 60 degree rating, but I guess since it was THWN I should have gone by the 75 degree rating which is 65a
I guess I could put a 70a breaker in if ever needed
But I don't really need any more power out there


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Section 240.4 states the same thing
> Section (B) refers to the use of the next higher standard OC device (800a or less)
> There are conditions to be met - not a MWBC, not greater then 800a
> I do know that this is not allowed on 15a & 20a house circuits



240.4(B) doesn't refer to multiwire branch circuits, it refers to "multioutlet branch circuits supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads". 

This is all a moot point though considering your wire is rated for 65a and not 55a, that's what's putting you up to code. If you have receptacles wired up out there, I don't think you could upsize the breaker to 70a.

Again, I'm not trying to argue, I freely admit that I'm still a student in college with little real world experience in electrical work, so most of everything I know is still theory at this point. I come to this site to try and hone my critical thinking skills for when I do get out there in the field.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Atroxx said:


> 240.4(B) doesn't refer to multiwire branch circuits, it refers to "multioutlet branch circuits supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads".
> 
> This is all a moot point though considering your wire is rated for 65a and not 55a, that's what's putting you up to code. If you have receptacles wired up out there, I don't think you could upsize the breaker to 70a.


If you had receptacles wired directly into the feeder, then no. But the feeder feeds a subpanel, and that has overcurrent protection for the other circuits. So 240.4(B) applies. And since the wire is rated at 65 A, he could up to 70 and be in compliance. Read 240.4(B) carefully. It is pretty clear.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Beat me to it...Thanks :thumbsup:
I did read it multiple times myself...thought what I said was right
A sub-panel is considered a device

Online link to NEC 2008:

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7008SB

You are right on the exclusion being NOT for multioutlet branch circuit
IE the 15a & 20a circuits that I mentioned earlier as being excluded


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.

240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."

That's a cut-and-paste by the way.

Technically speaking, that conductor is still part of the multi-outlet circuit right? Does putting a breaker in there separate the feeder conductor from the circuit?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Atroxx said:


> I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.
> 
> 240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."
> 
> ...


The #6 wire is not supplying the outlet circuits, the sub panel wire is
NEC is very confusing, I've seen discussion by Inspectors & Pro's who disagree on certain sections that seem vague

If you go by your interperetation then every wire all the way back to the 200a feed is part of the branch circuit

Many sections are up to interpretation
Code says you can run a 20a circuit direct burial at 12" if protected 1st by a GFCI
My Inspector agreed but stipulated any circuits needed run like this had to have 12" separation


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Atroxx said:


> I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's "pretty clear". In fact, I'm still pretty confused about the whole thing lol.
> 
> 240.4(B)(1) says "The conductors being protected are not part of a multioutlet branch circuit supplying receptacles for cord-and-plug-connected portable loads."
> 
> ...


Electrically, the circuit is continuous. But the insertion of additional overcurrent devices causes the system to be broken into separate parts. From the supply breaker to the subpanel, the wiring is a "*feeder*". And the supply breaker is only protecting those feeder conductors, and 240.4(B) is applicable. Between the subpanel and an outlet, the wiring is a "*branch circuit*", and the rules of 210.19 apply.

If the feeder were disconnected from the subpanel, and re-used to supply several receptacles, then it would become a multioutlet branch circuit, and therefore 240.4(B) would no longer be applicable. Does that clear it up any?


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## Atroxx (Jun 17, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Electrically, the circuit is continuous. But the insertion of additional overcurrent devices causes the system to be broken into separate parts. From the supply breaker to the subpanel, the wiring is a "*feeder*". And the supply breaker is only protecting those feeder conductors, and 240.4(B) is applicable. Between the subpanel and an outlet, the wiring is a "*branch circuit*", and the rules of 210.19 apply.
> 
> If the feeder were disconnected from the subpanel, and re-used to supply several receptacles, then it would become a multioutlet branch circuit, and therefore 240.4(B) would no longer be applicable. Does that clear it up any?


It does actually. Thanks for your patience and pardon my ignorance, but like I said, that's why I come here, to learn and maybe help out where I can


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey, I learned something too
That's why I'm here - to learn more


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