# Harden faucet stem removal



## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

I have an old harden three valve shower set-up. I'm trying to remove the deverter valve but it's stuck.What I'm trying to do is find a puller that fits this valve, I guess? I jerry rigged a puller on another valve because the stem unsrewed but this one is not budging. Holding on to a stem is a mystery to me. Help!


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

A picture would be helpful.


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## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

I think if I could add a picture it would be easier than fixing the faucet. I took the picture but have no idea how to add it to this thread. My picture is too large to send and I can't figure out how to get it smaller without losing quality, Oh well.


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## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

jrm said:


> I think if I could add a picture it would be easier than fixing the faucet. I took the picture but have no idea how to add it to this thread. My picture is too large to send and I can't figure out how to get it smaller without losing quality, Oh well.


Open it with MS paint go to Image: Strech/Strew and put the percentage you want to shrink the image in each box. For example if you wanted to make it half the size type 50 in both boxes.
Then go to www.imageshack.us
Uploading the picture is self-explanitory
Once it's uploaded get the direct image adress (all the way at the bottom)
Then come here and type [IM*G]you're image adress here[/IM*G] but omit the asterics.


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## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

Close -up picture of deverter valve that is stuck


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

If you chip away the motor from around that stem, you might see the back side showing the hex that unscrews this, I don't know this brand just taking a guess at this.


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## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

I've added new pictures to show you that I've allready removed the Hex nut. All that is left to do is to remove the cartridge, which is the problem, it won't budge.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Spray it with penetrating oil or WD-40 and allow it to sit for a short while.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

It should just unscrew from there then, counter clockwise. This is all guessing, like I say, this is not a valve seen around here.


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## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

It acually pulles straight out, I've done this before. Holding onto it and pulling is the problem. This cartridge has O rings so getting it lubed is a problem but what I think I'm going to do is place the oil in the shower head pipe, maybe this will penitrate.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Attach the handle back on it, use handle for pulling leverage.


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## jrm (Jan 30, 2007)

I think your right but I need to jerry rig a puller at the same time. There's to much force needed to pull with your hands and it needs to be an even presure.


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi 
(I realize this is a stale three year old thread - but I can't seem to private message on this board - so I hope someone will see this and respond)
So did you get this Harden diverter valve stem out or did you just bail and bust that thing out of there and replace the whole valve body???
I have this exact same stuck diverter valve.
I have tried CLR/Lime-a-way down the shower pipe. I have tried penetrating oil.
I tried locking a vise grips on the stem and using a slide hammer with a hook - no go.
My next thought is to try to get some sort of chuck - like the chuck that holds a drill bit on a power drill - or that holds a part on a machinist's lathe. Get that clamped onto the stem, put some wood against the wall and then use two pry bars to lever it out. 
Would love to hear if you were successful in removing yours - and if so where you found a replacement stem to purchase (or if you just replaced the o-rings. 
([email protected]) or reply here. 
Thanks - and I can send you pictures of what your valve body looks like under all that mortar if you're interested...


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

Suggestion
Screw the bonnet nub back in the valve body about half way. Clamp a pair of vise grip pliers onto the stem shaft, up tightly against the end of the threaded nipple that covers the stem shaft. Then unscrew the bonnet nut. As you unscrew the bonnet nut the pliers should pull the shaft out.


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

*harden faucet/diverter stem removal*

that's an interesting and creative suggestion, thanks. Your suggestion would be a good way to apply outward axial force to that stem in a controlled leveraged manner.

I had given up on this over a year ago (as the thread suggests) however I might give this a try.
I have to say, I am less than hopeful though, as:
1) I don't remember for sure but I don't think that the bonnet nut sits proud of the surrounding tile work, i.e. I'm not sure I'll have enough room to get an open end wrench on it, it may be recessed behind the tile a tiny bit.

2) I had previously clamped a visegrips on the stem (farther out) and pulled with quite a bit of force and didn't even come close to budging it. The vise grips just slid down the soft, brass, and (damn it) *fluted* stem and started to gouge it. The fluted grooves make it really hard to get a super firm grip. I'm quite afraid of damaging the stem / or worse snapping it off, as I am less than sure that I can obtain a replacement (it's no longer made). Thus, I was hoping to break the whole thing loose, clean off the corrosion, and maybe find new o-rings. 

Thus I was thinking I might get better 'clamping force' with a drill chuck, (preferably a 4or more jaw chuck) - but I haven't found a spare 1/2" or larger chuck to try this yet.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

If you place the vice grips 90 degrees to the long axis of the stem (teeth of vice grips mate with grooves of stem) then try tapping outwards on the vice grip with a hammer it might jar it loose.


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

Thanks, yes I did try that (gripping the stem at 90deg with the visegrips trying to get the grooves in the visegrip to align with the flutes in the stem) previously. The stem is not THAT long, of course so there's not much room to "swing" the hammer between the visegrips and the wall. I also tugged at the clamped visegrips with a slide hammer. 
Wouldn't budge. The vise grips just started sliding and gouging up the brass stem. 
I admit that I need to return and try this again with a better pair of visegrips, the grooves on the jaws of the pair I used were a little chewed up to start with.


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## hkstroud (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok, get the shortest black pipe nipple you can find and two pipe caps. Drill a hole in each cap large enough for the valve stem to pass thru. Screw one cap on each end. One cap will protect the valve body. Clamp the vise grips on the stem. Clamp and lock as tight as you can. It shouldn't matter if you scar the stem a little. Hold the pipe nipple with one pair pliers and unscrew the cap with another. You could eliminate one cap if the pipe it self is the same diameter as the valve body. It only protects the threads of the valve body.

On the theory that it is swollen O rings or washers that is preventing removal of the valve stem, you could try heating the inside of the valve body with a torch but I would try the pipe nipple first. Heat until the washers are softened.


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

hmm... that's another good idea. A really good idea. 
It's gonna be a couple - three weeks or more before I can get around to trying this - 
but I will certainly post an update here with the results.
Thanks!


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

*I have the same problem*

Did anyone that posted here get the Harden diverter valve removed?

I have the same diverter valve for my shower as pictured, but have not been able to remove it so far.

Thanks!


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

If it has O ring seals and pulls out, momentarily turn the water supply back on for 60#? psi pressure assist.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

I'm pretty sure it's a Harden diverter. It looks like the pictures in this thread, and also pictures in this thread at terrylove.com. (I can't post the link, even though I have one post will try posting link below.) 

Which means it has three o-rings, you can see the removed diverter with o-rings in post #10 in the link I posted right below this post.

Other pictures make the diverter look identical to pictures posted in this thread, and mine looks identical to pictures both in this thread, and the link I posted below.

Thanks.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

*Here is link``*

Picture of diverter removed are at post #10 here:

http://terrylove.com/forums/index.p...valves-and-unstick-the-shower-diverter.45716/


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

@ride525
yes I was able to remove my stuck Harden diverter stem back in 2011 using a variant of the very clever technique described above by hkstroud.

one key was using a good quality vise grips (plural) - i.e. my first attempts failed as the locking pliers slipped along the splined stem. I later obtained new visegrips with better (newer, sharper, not so chewed up) teeth. I also DOUBLED UP the visegrips - clamping two visegrips next to each other on the shaft.

After removal - I replaced the orings, and lubed and reassembled. The owner was instructed to operate the diverter valve at least once per week. No problems so far.

My stem was short , so I only used a quite short section of threaded pipe and one pipe cap, the unthreaded pipe end just resting against the valve body IIRC. I was not able to get heat on this valve safely and did not use heat.

PM me for more details if you wish


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

*Can't PM until 15 posts*

Hi hauch, (can't PM you until I have 15 posts.)

Thanks for posting. I would appreciate any details you have on what worked, or what did not work on removal of the Harden diverter.

I've tried sqirting WD40 into where the round diverter and body meet, but I think it does not go in very far. 

Also, I've tried (with pretty new and unsused vise grips) outside the "nut" that holds the diverter in place. But the Vise Grips just slip, even though they are clamped down pretty hard. Even with two pairs of vice grips. Not sure how the pipe/nipple trick would work different than just with the vise grips.

Next to try, 
1. Put some notches in the stem, so the vise grips don't slip. 
2. Or applying some heat, hard to get heat from the front, but the back goes to a closet, so should fairly easily be able to apply heat from the back by making a neat hole in the drywall. 
3. Maybe even try three vise grips?

Thanks for any help, and suggestions.

Jef


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

@ride525

Harden diverter stem removal using hkstroud's suggested puller:

Ok - I have placed pics and comments in the captions in an album in my account album, I guess. Click on "View hauch's album" Let me know if folks have access to this.

Unfortunately the pics got placed in the album in reverse order and I can't see a simple way to change the order in the album - it's pretty obvious -just start with the last pic #13 , and hit "prev" instead of "next"...

IF you are suggesting that you placed the visegrips next to the bonnet nut - and then tried to force outward by unthreading the bonnet net - well then you're right that, in theory, would work as well - but as you will see, my valve assembly laid well behind the finished stone tile surface and I did not have access to place the visegrips against the bonnet nut in their proper perpendicular orientation; even using some sort of spacer, there would not be enough access to turn the bonnet nut with force while such visegrips were in place. 

1. I don't see how notches would help - and you certainly don't want to cobber up the flutes on the end of the stem that fits into the handle.

2. I don't think heat is the answer as the problem is orings - not the usual seized metal on metal threads that can sometimes be unloosed by the differential expansion of heating. I did not have access to the backside of the valve (old home lathe plaster finished wall etc. - If I did have access then I would have just cut the whole valve out and plumbed in a new, modern, safety shower valve.

3. sure - if you have room clamp away.

Feel free to ask for clarifications. I can provide higher resolution pics directly if you provide an e-addr. 

Good luck!!


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

hauch said:


> @ride525
> 
> 1. I don't see how notches would help - and you certainly don't want to cobber up the flutes on the end of the stem that fits into the handle.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your pictures and reply.
1. I would cut some small notches in the stem, so the vise grips don't slip. My stem is longer than yours, so I can make notches without affecting the handle fit. 

2. I thought if I heated up the body around the o-rings, it might expand just a bit, and allow easier removal.

Thanks again.

Jeff


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

notches - yeah I thought about that too. If you've got room I suppose you could cut a slot that fits the width of the jaw of the visegrips. The material of the stem is not that strong. If you cut a shallow slot through just the splines and then use the visegrips to push against the cut face of the splines- it might - but that's not a lot of material -I think you're more likely to have material failure there. 
IF you cut deeper slots into the core of the stem diameter - then of course, at some point, you start compromising the structural integrity of the stem - it may not support the torque of turning the valve during operation in the future (especially if it stiffens up again - mine was frozen solid when I started) When I looked I only found one supplier for that stem and it was > $100 and I didn't want to have to replace it.

as a DIYer I do not have the aversion to cheap tools that others have. I picked up several locking pliers at my local Harbor Freight store for < $10 total. - found ones whose teeth fit the splines well (i.e. lots of contact area) - and then set and clamped that sucker tighter than I've ever visegripped anything in my life. 

heat - yeah I gave a few half hearted tries with heat and then gave up quickly. Because of the confined space the only heat I could bring was a butane pencil torch - locally very hot, but not a large quantity of heat in total. Look at the size of the cartridge end of the stem - then think about how large the valve body is. That's a lot of thermal mass to heat up, and it would have to stay hot during the pulling process. I also had concerns about safety (insulation, old wood framing) and - although really unlikely, I also didn't want to risk weakening any of the four solder joints from the valve to the supply and delivery pipes - (that would result in a leak in the walls above a finished space, a big disaster.) Actually this concern is another reason to use the puller device - you're not putting any stress whatsoever on those old solder joints.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Consider using a tubing flare tool clamp on the stem. They're made not to slip.

Excuse the pic as it is of a drill guide for boring 90° holes with a portable drill and the only pic I had at the moment.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks again for your reply.

I've found a couple of suppliers online that sell the diverter for about $60.

This project started when the Hot side valve sort of froze up, and I broke the ceramic disks, which course let hot water flow like crazy out the tub spout. Had to turn things off at front of house, since I could not at first turn off the water at the water heater.

Senior Sitizen, could you explain more about how the "tubing flare tool clamp" could be used, what it is, and how it could be used in this instance. I'm just not familar with it.

Thanks,


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

ride525 said:


> Senior Sitizen, could you explain more about how the "tubing flare tool clamp" could be used, what it is, and how it could be used in this instance. I'm just not familar with it.
> 
> Thanks,


If I can find it now I'll take another pic that may explain it better. Hold tight. One moment please, maybe just a little longer.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

AW NICE, edit time sucks.


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## hauch (Mar 27, 2010)

@SeniorSitizen - yeah that's a good idea. Use it in place of , or in addition to the vise grips. You'd likely crunch the splines a little bit at that point - but no big deal


Some places (Autozone in my area) loan out tools like this (with deposit). Harbor freight has them <$20.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

ride525 said:


> Senior Sitizen, could you explain more about how the "tubing flare tool clamp" could be used, what it is, and how it could be used in this instance. I'm just not familar with it.
> 
> Thanks,


The tubing flare clamp replaces the vise grips and holds very well by design with its serrated jaws. Use opening size appropriate for the stem. The numbers on the clamp won't mean anything in this application.

Refer to reply #18 on 3-18-11 about using a pipe nipple and pipe caps. I would probably use a short pipe nipple and a pipe bushing to avoid drilling holes in pipe caps. Size the nipple so the stem / cartrage will pass through. But once the cartrage bumps the nipple it can probably be pulled with the fingers.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Put the vise grips back in the tool box and forget you own any. They have screwed up more nuts, bolts and shafts than I care to remember.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

The tubing flare clamp worked! Well, partially.

I say partially, because I used 1/2 pipe and bushing and couldn't get the diverter stem out all the way, as the small pipe stopped it from coming out past the body opening. So, it's partially out.

Going to try larger diameter pipe, or some sort of spacer so the diverter stem can slide through those, and make it all the way out...

Upwards and onwards.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Size the nipple so the stem / cartrage will pass through.
********************************************
The clamp did its part. The other engineering failed.:biggrin2:

Thanks for the progress report.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

Well, I purchased a 3/4" nipple and end cap. They worked great, however, it took several times at slowing pulling the diverter stem out, as it had o-rings in three separate places. So I had to turn the brass end cap four turns to pull out the diverter just a little bit at a time.

I bought them in brass, even though brass cost $14, instead of steel at about $4. Bought brass because:
1. the internal diameter of the brass was a bit more than the steel, which I felt was important to allow the stem to start slipping into the nipple.
2. the end cap threaded on further, about 4 turns instead of 2 turns with the steel.
3. the brass end cap was less thick at the end, I was concerned about taking up room for the whole pulling setup.
4. I figured brass would be easier to drill through for the fluted stem hole.

However, it looks like I will have to purchase new diverter. My old one is very hard to turn, and when you do turn the fluted stem, using vise grips, I can't see that is does anything internally to divert the flow from hole to hole.

Thanks to all for your help, especially the use of part of the tubing flute tool!


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

ride525 - fyi pictured is what the flaring tool is actually used for. The intended use of the clamp you used holds the tubing so the end of the tubing can be flared to match the mating fitting.

If anyone ever tells you they have never failed to put the nut on the tubing before flaring, they are lying :biggrin2r never flared tubing.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> ride525 - fyi pictured is what the flaring tool is actually used for. The intended use of the clamp you used holds the tubing so the end of the tubing can be flared to match the mating fitting.
> 
> If anyone ever tells you they have never failed to put the nut on the tubing before flaring, they are lying :biggrin2r never flared tubing.


Not sure I will ever use the tool for flaring, but it sure worked great as a vise!


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

Well, got the diverter in the mail, in came shipped two day USPS from LockePlumbing.
Here is a piture: http://lockeplumbing.com/detail.asp?c=Faucet Parts F through H&s=Harden&s2=&sku=HAR-136&r1=&r2=&r3=
Also you can look at picture #1 in hauch's album.

What surprised me is there is nothing turning internally here, it's one solid piece, where the three o-rings turn along with the whole diverter all insider the outside body. 

I had a hard time getting it in, only forced it in part way. (and it would hardly turn at all, even thought just part way in. Then reviewed hauch's pictures and their wonderful descriptions. So, I will try to clean and buff the inside of the body, hopefully smoothing things out so the new diverter can be inserted more easily into the body.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

It would have been nice of the manufacturer to send along a sample packet of the lubricating grease they recommend. If they didn't there is usually a wide selection of plumber's grease brands containing silicone available to purchase locally.


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## ride525 (Mar 10, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> It would have been nice of the manufacturer to send along a sample packet of the lubricating grease they recommend. If they didn't there is usually a wide selection of plumber's grease brands containing silicone available to purchase locally.


I was ready with the silicone grease. I had already purchased a small tube of Danco 88963 Silicone Grease from Amazon. 

It was still really tight, way too tight to work correctly, even though the diverter was only partially pushed in. Hauch (in picture #1 of his album) talked of cleaning and buffing the body with a Dremel flex shaft and a soft ciricular brush.

I actually took the o-rings off of the old diverter, and shoved it in. It was hard to shove in at first, even without the o-rings, but something cleaned up, and it moves easier now. And it seems to work pretty well, even without the o-rings.

I just think it's a crazy design, when the whole diverter stem turns, including the three o-rings! (For the hot and cold water stems, the three o-rings just seal, and are stationary along with some of the hot and cold stems, and the ceramic disks turn.)

Maybe hauch will comment, just to confirm that in the design for the diverter, that the whole thing turns, including the three o-rings against the diverter body.


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## galyn4 (Dec 6, 2020)

hauch said:


> @ride525
> yes I was able to remove my stuck Harden diverter stem back in 2011 using a variant of the very clever technique described above by hkstroud.
> 
> one key was using a good quality vise grips (plural) - i.e. my first attempts failed as the locking pliers slipped along the splined stem. I later obtained new visegrips with better (newer, sharper, not so chewed up) teeth. I also DOUBLED UP the visegrips - clamping two visegrips next to each other on the shaft.
> ...


 I think i'm running into the same issue, well kind of. My stem and bonnet come out easy but the guts are still in there.
Any help?


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