# Just added attic insulation. House is still cold. Advice?



## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

I posted last year about my two-story house in New York State built circa the 1920s that was seemingly getting progressively colder in the winter months, and whether attic insulation--of which there was virtually none--might help resolve the issue. The consensus was that it was a good idea but that cool air might be infiltrating elsewhere in the house. 

Well, that was pretty spot on, as I went ahead and had cellulose blown in this week (15 inches to R-49 value, plus air sealing, etc.) and have observed no noticeable difference in the home's comfort level. 

The forced-air gas furnace will kick on, raise the temperature to the programmed 71, and the rooms will be comfortable while the vents are blowing. Within a few minutes of them kicking off, my skin feels cold and the house cool. 

I have:
- Installed new windows on the first floor (Okna, presumably energy efficient).
-Weather-stripped the front door. (Back door leads out to an unheated back porch, but I don't feel any cool air coming in.)

- Looked for open holes in the basement subfloor and sealed with foam.

Thus far, I still cannot tell where cool air might be coming in. But I do have a theory.

After digging around in the basement yesterday, I noticed a curious foundation element. It's a concrete block foundation. Above the basement windows is another, separate row of concrete block that has the cells of the blocks exposed in the overhang. All of them are stuffed with fiberglass batting. I pulled out the batting to find that someone--I'm guessing decades and decades prior--had stuffed the cells with insulation as well as old newspaper and even some rags. The cells seem to go on for two, possibly three feet, extending either right up to the subfloor or maybe even a little past it. When I removed the batting, I could feel a rush of cold air coming in. 

Is it possible these poorly-insulated cells are my problem and that the house has gotten progressively worse over time as this DIY job has deteriorated? If so, I'm not sure whether to stuff them with more batting, rock wool, spray foam, or something else. I'm also not sure if it's just the cells over the windows or all the cells, but most every other portion of the basement has some kind of top coat and only the cells above the windows are accessible. 

The contractor has offered to spray the rim joist with foam, but I'm hesitant to keep throwing money at a problem, especially if the foam would do nothing about the cells. (I also don't have what I would consider a typical rim joist--there are no cross-beams, just a wood sub-floor support. In other words, I couldn't shove any rigid foam into the joist because it doesn't have those type of spaces.)


Has anyone encountered anything like this? Do all concrete block foundations leave the cells unfilled? Concrete is, I understand, porous, and it seems like there's only a couple of inches of block and some aluminum siding separating my house and basement from freezing weather.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Just turn up the thermostat.

Installing insulation will result in using less fuel to heat the house, but will do little to making it feel warmer. If standing near a window, you will radiate less heat through a good window -- that might be perceptible. 

Don't get hung up about the number on the thermostat --- its not a NASA grade instrument. 74F on your thermostat may not be the same as 74F on your buddy's.


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## spitz1234 (Jan 1, 2019)

Possibly too large of furnace and your humidity may be too low. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Post some pictures of the basement so we can see what you are talking about there.


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

Have you installed gaskets in all of the exterior wall electrical outlets? Mine used to be a source of cold air during winter until I did this. You can also rent a thermal camera from certain orange apron stores.
I'll bet your home used to melt the snow on the roof within a few hours before the additional insulation was added. The next time you get any new snowfall, see if the snow on the roof melts. Probably not. And lastly, keep track of your winter heating costs and compare it to last year once the season is over. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised. 

https://www.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Thermal-Camera/FLIR-i7/


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

A house that old may or may not even have any insulation in the walls.
Have the rim joist been sealed?
Insulation under the floor?
I'd bet when they installled those new windows no one removed the trim on the sides of the window to fill in the old window weigh pockets leaving you with a huge empty space letting in cold air.
Balloon wall framing?
If so those walls are open from the basement to the attic until someone installs blocking.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Surface temperatures can impact comfort - when the heat is on the air from the vents warms up surfaces, when it shuts off they cool down.

There's a reason why registers are put on exterior walls below windows. 

Some old houses have the vents on the interior so the exterior surfaces never get warmed up and the perimeter is cold.

Oversized furnaces can also create comfort problems, quickly warming up the air and satisfying the stat before the surfaces get a chance to warm up.


Air leakage can definitely make a house cool down quick after the heat shuts off.

The house could have more than one problem.


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks to everyone who has responded. Here are some photos of the basement:

As you can see, there's no rim joist to speak of--at least, not one where rigid foam could be placed. The concrete blocks sit over the windows with the cells hanging overhead. You can see some of the insulation peeking out. The third photo shows how the foundation was constructed. Some batt insulation is stuffed between the concrete blocks and the beginning of the subfloor. (Or the sill plate?) The block cells aren't accessible in most of the basement. 

The last photo shows the same window from the outside. I was able to stick a two-foot metal pole into the holes, so it appears the cells extend well into the living space. They all look to be filled with batt insulation, but if my understanding is correct, stuffed-in fiberglass has no insulation or air barrier properties at all when compressed like this.


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

joecaption said:


> A house that old may or may not even have any insulation in the walls.
> Have the rim joist been sealed?
> Insulation under the floor?
> I'd bet when they installled those new windows no one removed the trim on the sides of the window to fill in the old window weigh pockets leaving you with a huge empty space letting in cold air.
> ...


No insulation on the rim joist. I've been told I can spray foam it, but not sure how much difference it might make with the concrete block cells behind the rim joist letting in cold air.

No insulation under the floor that I know of. 

I'm almost certain you're correct about the weight pockets. The windows were original to the house. I had a well-regarded installer perform the work, and I know they stuffed batting around the window opening, but I agree it's very unlikely they did anything with the weight area. I don't know how to access that once the window is in place, though.

I don't know if I have balloon wall framing. If my walls are open basement-to-attic, how would blocking work?


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> Surface temperatures can impact comfort - when the heat is on the air from the vents warms up surfaces, when it shuts off they cool down.
> 
> There's a reason why registers are put on exterior walls below windows.
> 
> ...



You're correct. Every single warm-air furnace vent is in an interior wall. 

I can't say whether the furnace is oversized. It's been with the house the entire time I've been here, over a decade, and I haven't always had the cold-air problem. 

However, I think the furnace is part of the issue. I checked the thermostat the other day and the AA batteries powering it had corroded. It's possible that's led to some miscommunication between the unit and the furnace. During the cold snap Thursday and Friday, the furnace was cycling on for about 10 minutes and then off for 20. I don't know if that's long enough to warm up the perimeter. I don't think that qualifies for short-cycling, either, but something may be going on.

I was also thinking of setting the fan from Auto to On to help keep warm air moving toward the perimeter. Unfortunately, while the thermostat has that option, turning it on doesn't keep the fan running.

Additionally, I closed one vent upstairs while doing some renovating a few months ago. Now I see that closing even one register can cause the blower to work more to counteract the increased air pressure. 

I plan to have the furnace and thermostat inspected, though I still suspect these concrete block voids are part of the issue.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

RoughDraft said:


> No insulation on the rim joist. I've been told I can spray foam it, but not sure how much difference it might make with the concrete block cells behind the rim joist letting in cold air.
> 
> No insulation under the floor that I know of.
> 
> ...


 The window was likely a hopper so it would never had had weights.


Usually the rim joist sits on the wall, occasionally we build like you have to raise the dirt level on the outside. But we move that first joist over to give the insulators a chance to get in there. 

You have ship lap for sup floor and every crack between the boards will allow air movement.
There is not much you can do about the block wall and the longer you have cold the deeper the frost goes and that wall looses whatever heat it is getting from the ground.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

With slab on grade house here, they do a peel and stick over the joint between wood and concrete and then add a foam board from the frost depth up about 6" above the top of the concrete. 

For your house you might consider foam on the outside behind the siding for the whole house.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

You do have a rim joist, it's the wood in the pics.

They used fiberglass to stop air leakage between foundation and rim joist - it's dirty indicating air is flowing through it.

I would remove the fiberglass and fill with foam.

You can probably glue rigid foam or roxul board to the rim joist. Foam can not be left exposed due to the fire risk.

If your foundation doesn't have major moisture infiltration issues, can put 2" of roxul board directly on it.

Roxul board doesn't have high r-value per inch but the first R5 to R10 saves the most energy - beyond that the money is better spent elsewhere in an old house.

You can look at relocating the registers to the perimeter at least on the main floor - lots of $$ though.

10 minute on/20 minute off furnace cycles in extreme cold indicates an oversized furnace. Most furnaces are oversized though.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Have your thermostat wiring changed so you can keep the fan running. You may need to add a relay in your furnace to do so. And pick up one of those cheap $20 infared thermometers with the laser and snoop around your perimeter with it and look at the temperatures. You may have a big leak you can't find. Is your basement ceiling (upstairs floor) insulated or finished? You may want to have your supply vents moved to where they can do a better job of circulating. And I suspect you have an older furnace.
Insulation helps a great deal in most situations. You problem could lie elsewhere.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Running a regular furnace blower continuously can really increase the electric bill even on lowest speed.

I wouldn't do it without an energy efficient ecm motor - in a new furnace or if the existing furnace isn't that old retrofitting into existing. (mars azure, gentec evergreen, emerson ecotech)


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

user_12345a said:


> You do have a rim joist, it's the wood in the pics.
> 
> They used fiberglass to stop air leakage between foundation and rim joist - it's dirty indicating air is flowing through it.
> 
> ...



I can definitely remove the fiberglass between the foundation and rim joist, but I'm not sure if I can just fill it with cans of spray foam or if the expansion could cause problems with either one. 



If I glue rigid foam board to the joist, how could I cover it so it's not exposed?


Is it worthwhile to try an fill the concrete block voids in some way? I guess I could only even try and fill the voids that are accessible. If I have others--I'm sure I do--I can't reach them. But isn't trying to insulate the rim joist a waste of time with the voids being a factor?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Although attic insulation helps, the statistics show that attics are responsible for about 25% of heat loss in the winter. The other 75% is through leaky windows and doors and of course poor wall insulation. Do you know what's in the walls?


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## Beevy (Oct 11, 2017)

Do you have a fireplace(s)? The more insulation, new windows, vent closures, etc. that is done to a house, will make the opening of the fireplace seem like an open window in the home. There is a trend, to "seal the envelope" of the house for better energy savings. This is good, until the last opening is closed up...the fireplace. 
I suggest an insulate cover for the fireplace. You can use a foam board, a chimney balloon, insulated magnetic cover, plastic window film. Whatever you can make or buy, just cover the fireplace and you will be amazed at the difference.


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## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

If the cinder blocks are empty, can you cut a hole in the wall and fill them with foam?
Assuming that no mortar has fallen between the blocks, it seems like there would be a clear path from top to bottom. Or, you might even be able to fill them with some free flowing concrete that does not have aggregate, (rocks) if you could fill them from the top.

Like someone said earlier, you can check the sides of the windows, behind the trim to make sure any voids are filled with insulation; but that should have been done with the new windows you installed.

An infrared attachment for your smartphone would reveal heat loss: FLIR is the most popular. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=flir&ref=nb_sb_noss

Just a few ideas.
Good Luck


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

My advice would be that it is winter and old houses are cold. My new house is cold. You can drive yourself crazy on these forums because these guys deal in perfection. Also, building science is changing all the time and nobody really knows. If you want to stay warm in the winter, move to Florida. I am being serious. I have seen people on here be advised to dig out around their basement and glue foam board to the side of their blocks.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

APA said:


> My advice would be that it is winter and old houses are cold. My new house is cold. You can drive yourself crazy on these forums because these guys deal in perfection. Also, building science is changing all the time and nobody really knows. If you want to stay warm in the winter, move to Florida. I am being serious. I have seen people on here be advised to *dig out around their basement and glue foam board to the side of their blocks.*



I was this thread!!!


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Find a thermal camera or hire someone to use one around your house to figure out where the infiltration is. It is a much cheaper alternative than throwing money at your home until you are broke and still cold.
And digging around the foundation to put insulation in is ridiculous.
You are already on the right track with adding ceiling insulation.
You need to find out where the cold air is coming from first...then make the changes.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

APA said:


> My advice would be that it is winter and old houses are cold. My new house is cold. You can drive yourself crazy on these forums because these guys deal in perfection. Also, building science is changing all the time and nobody really knows. If you want to stay warm in the winter, move to Florida. I am being serious. I have seen people on here be advised to dig out around their basement and glue foam board to the side of their blocks.


Building science is based careful observation, study and testing different construction methods. It doesn't change very quick.

Have things done right in accordance with best practices and it won't feel cold.

If a house is uncomfortable in winter, there's at least one thing that was wrong.

It's a question of how much money to spend to correct problems; it can be very expensive to retrofit an old home.

Along the same lines, many contractors will claim that "cold air is heavy" and therefore you can't properly cool a 2-story home with one central a/c system with the furnace or air handler in the basement and 2-systems or zoning are required. These same people use 1950s rule of thumb to design systems. It's complete BS - when duct system is done right and balanced, even 3 stories can be done with one system.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

@APA,
 @Missouri Bound


It is one thing to knock something you have never seen or heard of before but if you were to make suggestions on solving the problems that were asked about so we could explain the problems your suggestions cause. And just live in a cold house is not an answer. .


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-effi...ping-heat-chapter-6-basement-insulation/15639


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> @APA,
> @Missouri Bound
> 
> It is one thing to knock something you have never seen or heard of before but if you were to make suggestions on solving the problems that were asked about so we could explain the problems your suggestions cause. And just live in a cold house is not an answer. .


Insulating the floor would be 10X cheaper than insulating the exterior the perimeter foundation walls and 10X more effective. 
Apparently you have never heard of insulating the_ living space_.
I'm sure you are some sort of expert, but don't think _*I*_ don't know about foundation insulation. If you read the concern of the OP, his living space is losing heat. Either his walls or his floor are the culprit....certainly not the foundation. In fact many many homes have built on piers without a foundation and they certainly aren't cold because of it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea....but not in this situation.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Missouri Bound said:


> Insulating the floor would be 10X cheaper than insulating the exterior the perimeter foundation walls and 10X more effective.
> Apparently you have never heard of insulating the_ living space_.
> I'm sure you are some sort of expert, but don't think _*I*_ don't know about foundation insulation. If you read the concern of the OP, his living space is losing heat. Either his walls or his floor are the culprit....certainly not the foundation. In fact many many homes have built on piers without a foundation and they certainly aren't cold because of it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea....but not in this situation.



from the OP post 1

*If the cinder blocks are empty, can you cut a hole in the wall and fill them with foam? 
*

That sound*s *like a basement to me. If he has drafts in the basement it would be a safe bet that it is somewhere around where the wood meets concrete. 

I also suggested a way to block the drafts from the outside which would require some digging. I doubt it would be stretch to think the frost depth down there is not very deep. The basement floor and the walls below frost are a constant temp year round by insulation the outside you extend that area right up to the floor. 



You spoke of insulating the living space. 

Insulate the inside of the foundation walls and cover that with drywall and argue about whether it should have a vapour barrier. That can still be done later but in the mean time he is trying to solve the problems of the cold in the portion of the house he is living in.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Post 8 has photos. The basement is not living space.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Missouri Bound said:


> Post 8 has photos. The basement is not living space.


 So if it is not living space it is a crawl space, 2 ways to deal with that.
Vented or unvented, either way you still have to stop the drafts that would be around the perimeter. 



(1) The following ​_Texas_ counties have a 12 inch ​_frost line depth_ to consider for the installation of a new manufactured home: Armstrong, Bailey, Briscoe, Carson, Castro, Childress, Cochran, Collingsworth, Cottle, Crosby, Dallam, Deaf Smith, Dickens, Donley, Floyd, Foard, Gray, Hale, Hall, Hansford, Hardeman, Hartley, ...​


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> @APA,
> @Missouri Bound
> 
> 
> It is one thing to knock something you have never seen or heard of before but if you were to make suggestions on solving the problems that were asked about so we could explain the problems your suggestions cause. And just live in a cold house is not an answer. .



We've never seen it because nobody does that work in reality. And those that do charge tens of thousands of dollars. You have to weigh out the cost of turning the thermostat up vs doing something that is experimental at best and might not even work or create more problems.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> We've never seen it because nobody does that work in reality. And those that do charge tens of thousands of dollars. You have to weigh out the cost of turning the thermostat up vs doing something that is experimental at best and might not even work or create more problems.


 There are those that learn and those that make excuses.
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-effic...sulation/15639


I did not say it was the only answer, just something for the OP to consider. Now if you care to explain why it would not work I am sure the OP will read that too.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

user_12345a said:


> Building science is based careful observation, study and testing different construction methods. It doesn't change very quick.
> 
> Have things done right in accordance with best practices and it won't feel cold.
> 
> ...



But see, those guys are doing the work and not theorizing on a message board. Problems like this are not DIY and the homeowner drives themselves crazy chasing the problem and possibly making things worse. I have been there. You get 100 different opinions from people who have not even seen your situation. I stand by my statement that old houses are cold in the winter. You can choose to fight it or accept the fact or pay someone with experience. It's like cathedral ceilings. Nobody really knows what to do with those. I have a relative with the exact same tongue and groove ceiling set up that I read about being nightmares with condensation. It is a 2x6 with insulation crammed into the rafters with not venting. This is a huge cathedral run. There is no air sealing The house is over 30 years old and no problems whatsoever. Other homes rot out in 5 years and rain inside every spring. Sorry to rant on your thread. I would call someone local to look at it. You will drive yourself crazy second guessing.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> There are those that learn and those that make excuses.
> https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-effic...sulation/15639
> 
> 
> I did not say it was the only answer, just something for the OP to consider. Now if you care to explain why it would not work I am sure the OP will read that too.





It's a gamble. That was an academic exercise done by a university using highly specialized tools and techniques with all the time in the world and not a blow and go type insulation contractor which is what you would most likely get in a real world situation. They would probably hit a sewage line or cave in your basement wall.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> So if it is not living space it is a crawl space, 2 ways to deal with that.
> Vented or unvented, either way you still have to stop the drafts that would be around the perimeter.
> 
> 
> ]


The drafts under your living space do not affect the living space if your living space is insulated properly. That's not rocket science, it's a fact.
In coastal areas where flooding is a real issue the homes are on stilts.
That has absolutely no affect on the living space* if properly insulated.*


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

APA said:


> It's a gamble. That was an academic exercise done by a university using highly specialized tools and techniques with all the time in the world and not a blow and go type insulation contractor which is what you would most likely get in a real world situation. They would probably hit a sewage line or cave in your basement wall.



I also buy into the fact that houses DO have to breathe to many 100 year old, drafty houses to argue with that.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Missouri Bound said:


> The drafts under your living space do not affect the living space if your living space is insulated properly. That's not rocket science, it's a fact.
> In coastal areas where flooding is a real issue the homes are on stilts.
> That has absolutely no affect on the living space* if properly insulated.*



That is a good point. Could the guy just go buy a $600 foam kit at Lowe's and fill the joist cavities?


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

APA said:


> That is a good point. Could the guy just go buy a $600 foam kit at Lowe's and fill the joist cavities?



The more I read about these insulation/sealing topics, I think I would rather pay more for heating and cooling than to have my house rot out from under me. Some of these fixes would cost an astronomical amount that would pay for YEARS of increased bills. I had an insulation contractor come and look at reinsulating part of my house with cellulose. They wanted $6000+. The material cost was less than $1000.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> It's a gamble. That was an academic exercise done by a university using highly specialized tools and techniques with all the time in the world and not a blow and go type insulation contractor which is what you would most likely get in a real world situation. They would probably hit a sewage line or cave in your basement wall.


 12" really?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

And this is what I would suggest for the rest of the house.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Looks like Nealtw either owns this company or gets a kickback.


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, I certainly didn't anticipate this level of discourse over one chilly house out of many that have been mentioned on this forum.  

I appreciate everyone's suggestions very much. Owing to practicality and cost, addressing the problem from the exterior is not a path I am likely to pursue. Someone in a more expensive home who plans on living there for decades to come, however, would be in more of a position to consider it. 



> That is a good point. Could the guy just go buy a $600 foam kit at Lowe's and fill the joist cavities?


I've considered that. Whether it's DIY or hiring it out, it's probably the ideal solution considering how awkward all of this perimeter space is. But two things stop me: One is that it's no guarantee of resolving the problem, at which point I've tossed more money ($1000 for a pro job) out the window. Two, that stuff is nasty from a chemical perspective. I'd prefer not to handle it, and I don't know whether it would prove problematic even after curing.

For now, I hope get someone in with a thermal camera as per Missouri Bound's suggestion. I also intend to insert rigid foam board into the more conventional rim joist cavities found in the front and rear. (See below.) If it works, great. If not, rigid foam is relatively inexpensive. The good news is, by the time I'm done attacking the problem piecemeal, it will be spring.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Missouri Bound said:


> Looks like Nealtw either owns this company or gets a kickback.


Are you here to help people or just make wise cracks.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Nealtw said:


> Are you here to help people or just make wise cracks.


Well you sure as hell haven't helped anyone do anything except empty their wallets.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

RoughDraft said:


> Well, I certainly didn't anticipate this level of discourse over one chilly house out of many that have been mentioned on this forum.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's suggestions very much. Owing to practicality and cost, addressing the problem from the exterior is not a path I am likely to pursue. Someone in a more expensive home who plans on living there for decades to come, however, would be in more of a position to consider it.
> 
> ...



I know this is a DIY forum, but some things are not. There are some guys that would have the job done before you could gather the tools. Some of the suggestions on here are so finicky that they have so much room for failure. Not just this thread but overall and on many other forums. I did some air sealing, thought I did it right, and ended up with moisture. These insulation discussions go back and forth do much. I don't think anyone really does it "right". It's just hit or miss luck. For every point, there is a counter point. It's maddening really. A DIY forum should be for questions like, "Where Does the blue wire attach to this thermostat?" and not advanced building science that is mostly theory.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Roughdraft been busy but currently reviewing the thread to see if I can add anything. Old houses don't need to be cold and the steps to warm them up need to be outlined so that every improvement you make adds to the final results.

I'll be back

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Well as we are seeing discussions on a forum can explode. I prefer Neal's advice but we don't have a BS button to let me tag the posts that don't belong and I DON"T want to enter this fight.

I like the idea of getting an IR camera or having someone come in. Only thing I would add would be to enhance what they find by depressurizing the house. I use my blower door but exhaust fans can do a good job.

Once you have located the air leakage then you can decide how best to seal it. Note, air sealing can be but doesn't need to be a form of insulation. An example might be that fiberglass insulation stuffed in that we see, you may only need to remove the exposed first inch and then fill with something. The insulation will still provide some r-value and the foam use will do the air sealing

A foam product I tested that was interesting was Loctite for windows and doors. Just did a search and see they have other products for larger gaps. But once expanded and cured it is tough, which the great stuff is not, and remains flexible. IMO, worth checking out what is available and maybe testing a can.

Let us know if you go with the infrared camera and show us some pictures.

Bud


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## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

I have seen blower tests on YouTube and I have seen them insulate homes by over pressurizing them and sending small particles through the air that would trap themselves between gaps in the home.

Those tests were not required when I bought my current home. 
I assume that they probably cost a few thousand to get done, but it could save you a lot of money over the long term. Pay now or pay later.
Are they required in other areas? 
Are they necessary to pass final inspection?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Two different beasts, the blower door test and the insulation process you describe. The BD test is starting to be required on new construction in areas that mandate high efficiency in their codes. I have not seen the particle infusion you describe on a whole house, though they do something like that for duct sealing.

Then there is BD guided air sealing very common, but for a home owner a good window fan plus kitchen and bath exhaust can do the depressurization. The key is to exceed the stack effect pressure, not difficult, so that all air leaks become infiltration and thus show up as cold spots.

Bud


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> Well as we are seeing discussions on a forum can explode. I prefer Neal's advice but we don't have a BS button to let me tag the posts that don't belong and I DON"T want to enter this fight.
> 
> I like the idea of getting an IR camera or having someone come in. Only thing I would add would be to enhance what they find by depressurizing the house. I use my blower door but exhaust fans can do a good job.
> 
> ...



Again, how it this helping? You posted zero solutions. You are going to have this guy chasing his tail. I say that this job is NOT diy and he needs to just let someone else do it. As for the BS tag, this post needs one also.


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## DallasCowboys (Jan 30, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Two different beasts, the blower door test and the insulation process you describe. The BD test is starting to be required on new construction in areas that mandate high efficiency in their codes. I have not seen the particle infusion you describe on a whole house, though they do something like that for duct sealing.
> 
> Then there is BD guided air sealing very common, but for a home owner a good window fan plus kitchen and bath exhaust can do the depressurization. The key is to exceed the stack effect pressure, not difficult, so that all air leaks become infiltration and thus show up as cold spots.
> 
> Bud


This is what I was trying to describe.
How popular is this in new construction?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I really don't know anything about that specific machine and have never see it used. Super energy efficient homes like (and are sometimes required) to go to extremes. After all of the traditional steps have been completed those home owners or builders are looking for anything that can kick it up a notch. But remember, they are already planning on an expensive air exchange system.

I could guess but won't. Note, I did not watch the video as my virus protection cannot be upgraded and my old pc is waiting for the new one to be set up. 

Bud


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## RoughDraft (Jun 10, 2013)

A couple more questions as I continue to research:

- Regardless of any thermal camera results, it seems likely it would be wise to insulate the rim joists. It will be easier to use rigid foam in the front and back of the property where the pieces can be wedged and foamed in place. Is this still worth doing if I leave the side joists alone for the time being? I suppose it depends on where the cool air is coming in, but I don 't necessarily see the harm. All the YouTube rim joist videos I see are always focused on the cavities and never the straight run of wooden board. 

- I've read that foil-faced rigid foam is a poor idea when the joist has a concrete cavity, which is the case in the front of my house. I think it has something to do with condensation, but I don't see how that would be an issue if the foam is properly air-sealed. Has anyone heard of this?

- I think my zone (6A) means a recommendation of R-20 or so. Ideally, I'd like to avoid the expense and trouble of doubling up on the foam with two layers of R-10. Dow's Thermax comes in a 2-inch depth with a value of R-13 and is fire-rated so I wouldn't need to bother with covering the insulation in drywall. I was thinking of putting this against the wood cavities and then possibly use some R-6 pink foam against the concrete portions and then cover with the Thermax. 

I do have a feeling I'll regret trying to fit these boards when I could buy a Dow Froth Pak and just spray every irregular crevice and guarantee a proper air seal, but I think I might need two of the 210 board foot kits to cover the roughly 80 square feet I need to cover in order to achieve the recommended 3-inch depth. That expense jumps from roughly $400 to $800, at which point I'm better off just getting a pro to do it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

If your siding is vinyl, I would open it in a few places to see the connection between wood and concrete and get a better understanding of what you are dealing with.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

RoughDraft said:


> A couple more questions as I continue to research:
> 
> - Regardless of any thermal camera results, it seems likely it would be wise to insulate the rim joists. It will be easier to use rigid foam in the front and back of the property where the pieces can be wedged and foamed in place. Is this still worth doing if I leave the side joists alone for the time being? I suppose it depends on where the cool air is coming in, but I don 't necessarily see the harm. All the YouTube rim joist videos I see are always focused on the cavities and never the straight run of wooden board.
> 
> ...



Get a pro. That way any problems are on them. The house is a huge investment. Why cobble around on it?


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