# Ecofreeez The Ultimate R22 Substitute Replacement.



## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Have any of you guys ever tried or used this product as a replacement to R-22?

This product is being sold on fleebay by a seller who has sold over 200 tanks of this product, and has a 100% feedback rating, so I would think it must work.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Isn't that EF22A? That stuff has propane in it and wasn't approved by the EPA last I checked


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Just checked, and yes that's 22a. Flammable in the presence of oxygen, not approved, and IMO dangerous.


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

Something real simular was around about 2 years ago. WORKS REAL GOOD!!! Supply house was selling out as fast as they could get it. It went on back order for 5 weeks. One of the local company's was using it working on a walk in cooler. Inside of cooler they had a leak after charging. Bleed out the refrigerant. Did not flush line set or use nitro or air out the cooler. Lit torch and had a flash fire (lucky no one hurt & no damage) shortly after that supply house did not carry it any longer. It's out there so treat ALL systems as it would have flammable gas in it!!! As you know now you or anyone can buy it online. Think it was 11 lb jug covered 30 lbs of R22- CHEAP PRICE!!


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

DOUG1111 said:


> Something real similar was around about 2 years ago. WORKS REAL GOOD!!! Supply house was selling out as fast as they could get it. It went on back order for 5 weeks. One of the local company's was using it working on a walk in cooler. Inside of cooler they had a leak after charging. Bleed out the refrigerant. Did not flush line set or use nitro or air out the cooler. Lit torch and had a flash fire (lucky no one hurt & no damage) shortly after that supply house did not carry it any longer. It's out there so treat ALL systems as it would have flammable gas in it!!! As you know now you or anyone can buy it online. Think it was 11 lb jug covered 30 lbs of R22- CHEAP PRICE!!


Doug1111,

Actually 1 Ounce of EF-22a is equal to 2.5 Ounces of R22. So the total is 12lbs of R-22A = 30lbs. of R-22. I believe R290 was referring to in back then. 

What I don't understand is if this stuff is outlawed by the EPA in the USA because it is flammable, then why would the not shut down the company Ecofreeez that makes the R-22A, because they are located right here in Brooklyn N.Y. USA?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> Doug1111,
> 
> Actually 1 Ounce of EF-22a is equal to 2.5 Ounces of R22. So the total is 12lbs of R-22A = 30lbs. of R-22. I believe R290 was referring to in back then.
> 
> What I don't understand is if this stuff is outlawed by the EPA in the USA because it is flammable, then why would the not shut down the company Ecofreeez that makes the R-22A, because they are located right here in Brooklyn N.Y. USA?



Its not illegal to make it. Its illegal to use it in an A/C or refrigeration system. 

Propane/R290 is now allowed to be used in a small appliance, that has a total refrigerant operating charge of less then 5 ounces.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 22, 2013)

R22 is expensive , but still available . Bite the bullet and buy the " real " stuff .

It is a fact of life that very little about HVAC is inexpensive .

Did some one say you need to flush the lines ? Do you use mineral oil with propane ?

Can you top an existing R22 system off with propane ?

When R134a replaced R12 in automotive A/C , I heard of people trying propane as a replacement .

I find the whole idea interesting , but scary .

God bless
Wyr


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

satman858 said:


> Doug1111,
> 
> Actually 1 Ounce of EF-22a is equal to 2.5 Ounces of R22. So the total is 12lbs of R-22A = 30lbs. of R-22. I believe R290 was referring to in back then.
> 
> What I don't understand is if this stuff is outlawed by the EPA in the USA because it is flammable, then why would the not shut down the company Ecofreeez that makes the R-22A, because they are located right here in Brooklyn N.Y. USA?


Sounds like you've been reading some of the promotional garbage they have spread around the internet.
The stuff should be pulled from the market and banned altogether. Its illegal, dangerous and mis-advertised.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

WyrTwister said:


> Can you top an existing R22 system off with propane ?


Canada and the USA differ in the sense that we are not allowed to "top off" a system in Canada whereas in the USA you people can.

I'm pretty sure however that you (as us) are not allowed to mix refrigerants.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

WyrTwister said:


> I find the whole idea interesting , but scary .
> 
> God bless
> Wyr


It works... although not quite as "drop in" as being suggested. For optimum performance you need to properly resize the TXV

Personally, I think the dangers are a bit overstated. We have no issues at all with propane operated vehicles which carry 30 to 50 POUNDS of propane. We have no issues with 20 or 100 pound propane tanks sitting in our back yard for our BBQ's.... etc.... etc. But talk about 25 or so ounces of the stuff floating around in our a/c's and all of a sudden propane becomes a dire threat to the human race. Go figure.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

satman858 said:


> What I don't understand is if this stuff is outlawed by the EPA in the USA because it is flammable, then why would the not shut down the company Ecofreeez that makes the R-22A, because they are located right here in Brooklyn N.Y. USA?


It's not illegal to make propane or encase it in smaller containers.

We're sitting on a fence with propane... and have been for a while now. It most definitely has flammability issues, but aside from that it happens to be one of the most environmentally safe refrigerants there is next to CO2 and water. It's not toxic to inhale. It does no damage to the ozone layer. It is not a green house gas issue (r410a is about 1500 times worse as a green house gas than Co2 is). In fact it can be vented and dissipated into the atmosphere because it has such a short life span.

There are people really pushing to make propane a little more acceptable as a refrigerant. So far they have succeeded in making it acceptable in small appliances at small levels.... we'll see if it goes further.


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## aluminumwelder (Apr 3, 2015)

"This product is being sold on fleebay by a seller who has sold over 200 tanks of this product, and has a 100% feedback rating, so I would think it must work."

this is a logical falacy, ebay ratings have nothing to do with product's quality.
you can buy r22 on ebay in 10 lb cylinders too, it's about $17 a lb, yes that is expensive 
last hvac top off I paid $450 in labor and about $150 for a lb of r22 refrigerant, nice mark up!


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

aluminumwelder said:


> "This product is being sold on fleebay by a seller who has sold over 200 tanks of this product, and has a 100% feedback rating, so I would think it must work."
> 
> this is a logical falacy, ebay ratings have nothing to do with product's quality.
> you can buy r22 on ebay in 10 lb cylinders too, it's about $17 a lb, yes that is expensive
> last hvac top off I paid $450 in labor and about $150 for a lb of r22 refrigerant, nice mark up!


Your statement is the "fallacy", and it's spelled with two l's. Did I ever say a fleebay feedback has to do with product quality? No I didn't! But the fact is it is half the cost of R-22, and runs cooler through the lines, and is much more environmentally safer than R-22. As for a fleebay ratings go, a seller would have a 100% feedback rating, and many negative ratings if this product didn't work, and you would also be seeing negative comments in the feedback's, not positive ones like this seller is getting.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

What does "runs cooler through the lines" mean???


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Bob Sanders said:


> It's not illegal to make propane or encase it in smaller containers.
> 
> We're sitting on a fence with propane... and have been for a while now. It most definitely has flammability issues, but aside from that it happens to be one of the most environmentally safe refrigerants there is next to CO2 and water. It's not toxic to inhale. It does no damage to the ozone layer. It is not a green house gas issue (r410a is about 1500 times worse as a green house gas than Co2 is). In fact it can be vented and dissipated into the atmosphere because it has such a short life span.
> 
> There are people really pushing to make propane a little more acceptable as a refrigerant. So far they have succeeded in making it acceptable in small appliances at small levels.... we'll see if it goes further.


Bob,
I have to agree with everything in your post. It is very nice to have a Canadian perspective to this discussion. The EPA to me is as dishonest as all the other alphabet agencies in government today. I am sure the fact that these products like R-22A and 290A can be sold to and installed by any homeowner, has both the manufacturers of Air Conditioning units (with their big lobbyist in Washington), and HVAC techs alike, both applying pressure to trash, ban, and destroy this companies, because it means big money out of the pockets of the techs who have homeowners at their mercy. :yes:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

roughneck said:


> What does "runs cooler through the lines" mean???


Bump.........


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> What does "runs cooler through the lines" mean???


I am not exactly sure I was right there, as I have been reading about many things lately. However, I did find this information below:

Ecofreeez EF-22A allows your system to operate with less head pressure than R-22, and is extremely efficient! 

I also found information on the flammability issue with this EF-22a refrigerant. It is listed below:


Is EcoFreeez hydrocarbon refrigerant flammable?

YES, as are all lubricants, additives and oils used in air-conditioning systems. The key is that hydrocarbon refrigerant’s flammability is highly controllable.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Define"_* hydrocarbon refrigerant’s flammability is highly controllable*_". How do you "control" flammability? It either catches on fire or it don't. The problem is in cases where it cannot rise out like a cooler and it builds up in that area and the concentration gets to the combustion point ( air to fuel ) ratio and then it can be ignited. If it is in a outdoor unit or car and can rise straight up and out it is safer. The law has to protect us from the worst case scenario plus the insurance companies look at that too. THat is why we have UL and other agencies like CGA/AGA.

These substitutes have NO long term track record. In a AC or refrig system the oil must travel with the refrigerant and if they don't go well together then the compressor may die from poor lube. THat is why Pro's don't care for it. You take a system worth hundred of thousands of $$ and slap some el cheapo substitute in an damage it . Not likely any Pro will go for that. What Joe homeowner does with his own unit we could not care about except if we have to work on it and there is a explosion and we get hurt. Has nothing to do with Pros wanting to hog the market or profits. My company is big enough that if we lose 1-2 jobs a year it won't even dent our profits plus we get to sell Joe a new unit a few years down the road when his dies from poor lube.

Why can a company sell a "dangerous" product. You can buy gunpowder and fertilizer and makes bombs as well. After there are a few explosions/fires and lawsuits then the gov't may step in and ban them but the gov't and laws move slowly and something really bad has to happen first.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Wow! I just glanced over at the fleabay sellers auction and he has 718 of these EF-22A tanks sold, with 7 being sold in the past 24 hours. 

It makes you wonder if these tanks are not also being bought by HVAC techs, which are charging their customers the R-22 current price, which we ALL know is twice as much as this EF-22A refrigerant. After all, there are bad apples in every business. :yes:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Have to get me some of that now that I know I can rip people off more.

I thought my selling the dirty refrigerant I sucked out of that burnout unit as "new" was a good scam but hey I can buy greater amounts of this juice and do more topping/ripping off now. By the light of the moon of course.:thumbsup::laughing:


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

Just curious, does this EF-22A stuff have the same issues as R22 with becoming acidic and damaging the compressor? Is this stuff more or less DIY friendly if it ever became legal?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

R22 does not beome acidic ever. If you have a compressor burnout the oil becomes acidic.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Define"_* hydrocarbon refrigerant’s flammability is highly controllable*_". How do you "control" flammability? It either catches on fire or it don't. The problem is in cases where it cannot rise out like a cooler and it builds up in that area and the concentration gets to the combustion point ( air to fuel ) ratio and then it can be ignited. If it is in a outdoor unit or car and can rise straight up and out it is safer. The law has to protect us from the worst case scenario plus the insurance companies look at that too. THat is why we have UL and other agencies like CGA/AGA.
> 
> These substitutes have NO long term track record. In a AC or refrig system the oil must travel with the refrigerant and if they don't go well together then the compressor may die from poor lube. THat is why Pro's don't care for it. You take a system worth hundred of thousands of $$ and slap some el cheapo substitute in an damage it . Not likely any Pro will go for that. What Joe homeowner does with his own unit we could not care about except if we have to work on it and there is a explosion and we get hurt. Has nothing to do with Pros wanting to hog the market or profits. My company is big enough that if we lose 1-2 jobs a year it won't even dent our profits plus we get to sell Joe a new unit a few years down the road when his dies from poor lube.
> 
> Why can a company sell a "dangerous" product. You can buy gunpowder and fertilizer and makes bombs as well. After there are a few explosions/fires and lawsuits then the gov't may step in and ban them but the gov't and laws move slowly and something really bad has to happen first.


You are sounding like and angry Canadian. Did you just coming from a Hockey game? :laughing:

All joking aside, I think they mean by the flammability issue, is that this product is no more flammable than the oil and additives that come inside of R-22, not the amount of flammability. 

As for your el cheapo substitute comment, it is absolutely ridiculous, as it is not that cheap. If not for the supply and demand for R-22 at this time, it would be cheaper than this EF-22A refrigerant.

Last but certainly not least is your uneducated opinionated comment as this product making the unit die from poor lube. This is a knew technology and nobody can yet determine what will happen in time. It just may revolutionize the refrigerant industry. Only time will tell.

As for as the dent it makes on your income personally. Not all HVAC guys in areas that have a small markets with many HVAC techs, will say the same thing about the dent it may make in their pockets.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Have to get me some of that now that I know I can rip people off more.
> 
> I thought my selling the dirty refrigerant I sucked out of that burnout unit as "new" was a good scam but hey I can buy greater amounts of this juice and do more topping/ripping off now. By the light of the moon of course.:thumbsup::laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing: 

I know you're joking yuri (are at least think you're joking ) But you do know the FACT that HVAC guys around the world do that every day. :thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I am not angry. I love to "Haggle" and debate. Haggling and get the best deal for your buck/loonie is part of the Ukerainian DNA. We NEVER pay retail.

From an Engineering standpoint the only known refrigerant that mixes well with the mineral oil is R22. By the time this other stuff has a track record all these units will have worn out and been replaced so it is a moot point.

If a company/tech is skating on the edge profit/income wise then they need to do more side jobs or get a better reputation or into another field. The worst problem is the Joe's heat em and cheat em undercutting each other until no one makes a profit issue not some fake freon. The fact DIYers in the US can buy ACs online and install them is a much bigger loss of revenue and there is nothing anyone can do about that. Fake freon is not going to put them under. Bad market and business practices will. Most HVAC companies fail because of their egos and drinking and gambling problems. Buy a $40,000 van or fleet of them and fancy paint or decal jobs etc and live way beyond their income. You have to build a business and that takes time.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> I am not angry. I love to "Haggle" and debate. Haggling and get the best deal for your buck/loonie is part of the Ukerainian DNA. We NEVER pay retail.
> 
> From an Engineering standpoint the only known refrigerant that mixes well with the mineral oil is R22. By the time this other stuff has a track record all these units will have worn out and been replaced so it is a moot point.
> 
> If a company/tech is skating on the edge profit/income wise then they need to do more side jobs or get a better reputation or into another field. The worst problem is the Joe's heat em and cheat em undercutting each other until no one makes a profit issue not some fake freon. The fact DIYers in the US can buy ACs online and install them is a much bigger loss of revenue and there is nothing anyone can do about that. Fake freon is not going to put them under. Bad market and business practices will. Most HVAC companies fail because of their egos and drinking and gambling problems. Buy a $40,000 van or fleet of them and fancy paint or decal jobs etc and live way beyond their income. You have to build a business and that takes time.


As for as your last paragraph I totally agree with you, with the exception of what you call fake freon, which I call different refrigerant technology. Different can be good and is not always bad. I did not say it would put a tech out of business, but like in our area it might mean having those extra greedy bucks to spend the weekend at the Casino. :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Propane/R290 is not new technology


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Propane/R290 is not new technology


Yup.

Started using it on a residential level in something like the late 20's when people were dying from the Methyl hydrate which was used in the new fridges of that time period. It was shortly after that though that r12 was born so there was no further reason to use propane. r12 was deemed "safe" and non flammable to boot.


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## aluminumwelder (Apr 3, 2015)

satman858 said:


> Your statement is the "fallacy", and it's spelled with two l's. Did I ever say a fleebay feedback has to do with product quality? No I didn't! But the fact is it is half the cost of R-22, and runs cooler through the lines, and is much more environmentally safer than R-22. As for a fleebay ratings go, a seller would have a 100% feedback rating, and many negative ratings if this product didn't work, and you would also be seeing negative comments in the feedback's, not positive ones like this seller is getting.


yeah cause all the people that buy off ebay are obviously highly trained hvac techs, and they would spot the issues within the 60 day period that people have to give feedback. LOL, logical fallacy indeed! please stop while you are ahead. :laughing: please spelling police forgive my mispellings


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

aluminumwelder said:


> yeah cause all the people that buy off ebay are obviously highly trained hvac techs, and they would spot the issues within the 60 day period that people have to give feedback. LOL, logical fallacy indeed! please stop while you are ahead. :laughing: please spelling police forgive my mispellings


Highly trained HVAC tech that can't spell. :laughing:

Highly trained HVAC techs in my neck of the woods is a real joke. :yes:

I know of plenty of HVAC techs that have told me that a basic knowledge and understanding of a system, and that a few hours of studying, will get you a HVAC license in our state.

P.S. If you took the time to read all the pages of comments of these buyers like I have, you would have seen that there all many return customers from the last 2 years.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> Wow! I just glanced over at the fleabay sellers auction and he has 718 of these EF-22A tanks sold, with 7 being sold in the past 24 hours.
> 
> It makes you wonder if these tanks are not also being bought by HVAC techs, which are charging their customers the R-22 current price, which we ALL know is twice as much as this EF-22A refrigerant. After all, there are bad apples in every business. :yes:


718 jugs in 9 years isn't a lot. A rounded up 80 jugs a year.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Your ramblings come across as a sales pitch. You also appear to have already made up your mind to use this product, which your free to do. However you are not going to convince others that this is the wave of the future, when its nothing more then someone's pipe dream. The "facts" on those websites are all sales ploys to get homeowners such as yourself to buy the product, which you appear to have fully embraced.
If its so great, why hasn't the industry gobbled it up? Why aren't supply houses selling pallet loads of it? The industry usually trends to the latest greatest thing. But maybe we don't use it so we can just charge more $$$$, as you have suggested :whistling2:.



> All joking aside, I think they mean by the flammability issue, is that this product is no more flammable than the oil and additives that come inside of R-22, not the amount of flammability.


 What additives? Refrigerant is not flammable, and there isn't near enough oil in a system to cause an issue. An indoor leak putting out EF22A next to a gas fired water heater might prove to be a different story.
Shouldn't be anything else in a system unless you like dumping snake oil in there believing its "helping" efficiency.



> But you do know the FACT that HVAC guys around the world do that every day.


 There's crooks in every field, every business, every state, and every country. Its your choice who you use for professional services. Do your research and pick a good one. Suggesting professionals buy this stuff only to charge R22 prices is no different is no different then Bubba getting caught down at the local lube mart giving fake oil changes on your car.



> If you took the time to read all the pages of comments of these buyers like I have, you would have seen that there all many return customers from the last 2 years.


 Still doesn't give any hard data. Perhaps they use it because they don't know any better. Doesn't explain a thing.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

beenthere said:


> 718 jugs in 9 years isn't a lot. A rounded up 80 jugs a year.


Indeed, in the last 3 weeks I'm sitting at 9 bottles of R410A and 2 of R22 in the last month.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

roughneck said:


> Indeed, in the last 3 weeks I'm sitting at 9 bottles of R410A and 2 of R22 in the last month.


Last 2 weeks. 3-R410A, 2-R22. Of course several of the systems I worked on, I was able to reuse the charge of the unit. Or that would add 4 more bottles of R22.

I hope everyone reading this thread realizes that current standard recovery machines, aren't safe to use on systems containing Propane.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

beenthere said:


> Last 2 weeks. 3-R410A, 2-R22. Of course several of the systems I worked on, I was able to reuse the charge of the unit. Or that would add 4 more bottles of R22.
> 
> I hope everyone reading this thread realizes that current standard recovery machines, aren't safe to use on systems containing Propane.


Excellent point about the recovery machines.
I'm high on 410 use lately, had several startups that have eaten up bottles.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

There will always be snake oil products when there is a large demand for something especially if what is "replacing" is going obsolete.

I wonder what Goodman will have to say when the compressors fail on those dry units they are still selling after the DIYers or hackers slam in that "snake oil". If they cut open a few and find snake oil residue then no warranty.

Now most "un-professional" techs could not give a da*mn about some customer they probably will never see again so yeah it is a quick buck for them.

The Pro's here who own their companies are not going to jepordise losing their customers by using that crap.

The "Industry" follows what the compressor manufacturers like Copeland approve and it has to be from DuPont or tried for a long time and proven like R22.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> 718 jugs in 9 years isn't a lot. A rounded up 80 jugs a year.


His time as a member of fleebay could very well have nothing to do with this. I personal have been a member of fleebay for 15 years and I have not sold anything there for 10 years. Who is to say, that he didn't begin selling these units 2 years ago which would mean he may be averaging 359 units a year. :thumbsup:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

So buy some and leave him (or yourself) feedback on how awesome it is


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> His time as a member of fleebay could very well have nothing to do with this. I personal have been a member of fleebay for 15 years and I have not sold anything there for 10 years. Who is to say, that he didn't begin selling these units 2 years ago which would mean he may be averaging 359 units a year. :thumbsup:



Your right. He may not be a good businessman. A good businessman wouldn't wait 9 years to start selling the product that he choose as his account name.

You do know that he/his product is under investigation by both the FBI and EPA.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> I hope everyone reading this thread realizes that current standard recovery machines, aren't safe to use on systems containing Propane.


You don't need to recover. You can vent to the atmosphere. Propane based refrigerants pose no threat to the environment.



> The EPA is proposing to exempt from the venting prohibition hydrocarbons listed as “acceptable” or “acceptable under use conditions” under the SNAP Program in December 2011:
> 
> 
> *Isobutane (R600a) and R441A*, which were listed as acceptable, subject to use conditions, as refrigerant substitutes in household refrigerators, freezers, and combination refrigerators and freezers, and
> *Propane (R290)*, which was listed as acceptable, subject to use conditions, as a refrigerant substitute in stand-alone retail food refrigerators and freezers.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> You don't need to recover. You can vent to the atmosphere. Propane based refrigerants pose no threat to the environment.
> 
> [/LIST]



If you don't recover the R290. Then you have the potential to blow up the system if you use a torch to braze a leak, or braze in a new LLFD.

Just blowing it off, will not get all of it out.

Makes me wonder how many people bought that stuff thinking they can just blow it off, and then safely use a torch around the unit.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

I doubt many of the users know you have to use a torch on the equipment at all. 
Open flame+flammable refrigerant=boom
Just a little oil laying in the line can make for an impressive show. Let alone something in vapor form that's still boiling out of the system.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

FIRST thing my first Journeyman taught me/ told me is a wise old saying: Ignorance is Bliss.

Our Boss had a habit of continuosly pressing a RA890 reset control on large gas fired Mammoth rooftop units hoping to get the heat on for the customer if we were busy. Blissfully unaware you don't press those or oil burner resets too many times. There is a reason they trip. :yes:

Could have blown himself off the roof.

What you don't know CAN hurt you. Snake oil/snakes can bite.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> If you don't recover the R290.


You need to evacuate. That's not the same as recovery.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

roughneck said:


> Open flame+flammable refrigerant=boom


Well... yes and no. 
You can't have an explosion without air (oxygen).

I've worked on propane systems before (without evacuating). You get a loud POP and a flame shoots out about 8 inches or so for an instant then it quickly fades to a flame the size of a bic lighter. There is very little air in a refrigeration system so the only pop you get is the propane near the break or open part of the pipe which has had time to mix with air. The rest kind of of burns like a lighter.

My buddy does gas line welding for the city. I'm always amazed at these guys because they never bother to turn the gas off. I've asked what happens of you accidentally burn through while welding and he says he's done it before. You just get a flame shooting out at you is all. You just weld right over the flame until the hole is sealed.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

I'd hope there would be no air in a refrigeration system........


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> You need to evacuate. That's not the same as recovery.



No, you recover it. That is why they make R290/Care40 recovery machines.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> No, you recover it. That is why they make R290/Care40 recovery machines.





> *recover*
> 1. to get back or regain (something lost or taken away)
> 
> *evacuate*
> 2_. _remove air, water, or other contents from (a container).





> The venting of hydrocarbons R600a, R441A and R290 used as substitutes in domestic and stand-alone retail refrigeration, previously prohibited under section 608 of the Clean Air Act legalized in 1995, have been exempt by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) earlier this week (20/05/2014). hydrocarbons21.com talks to leading industry equipment manufacturers, end users and NGOs to understand what this development means for hydrocarbon refrigeration technologies in the US market


Once again... R290 has been exempt from having to recover. Now no one says you CAN'T recover if you wish. 

Now you are correct in that the existing gas after a venting still poses a (small) threat and needs to be removed (evacuated), which can be done in a number of ways.... and that includes the use of a recovery machine OR... you can just open another end of it and blow nitrogen through it.

Either way, recovery machines are unessesary for r290 work.


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## aluminumwelder (Apr 3, 2015)

satman858 said:


> Highly trained HVAC tech that can't spell. :laughing:
> 
> Highly trained HVAC techs in my neck of the woods is a real joke. :yes:
> 
> ...


so let me get this straight, you looked at all the ebay feedback which only lists the first and last letter of their username like this: k***e 
and some how determined there were "many" repeat buyers?

how do you know they aren't different buyers with the same first and last letters? and who would actually waste their time to even try and figgure that out? sorry you are not tellign the truth, wouldn't surprise me if you were the seller himself trying to drum up business.


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## aluminumwelder (Apr 3, 2015)

and the price difference between this and real R22 would amount to maybe $10 to $40 on a typical HVAC job, 
anyone that believes a business is going to pump illegal refrigerant to save a paltry sum like that is paranoid.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> Once again... R290 has been exempt from having to recover. Now no one says you CAN'T recover if you wish.
> 
> Now you are correct in that the existing gas after a venting still poses a (small) threat and needs to be removed (evacuated), which can be done in a number of ways.... and that includes the use of a recovery machine OR... you can just open another end of it and blow nitrogen through it.
> 
> Either way, recovery machines are unessesary for r290 work.


When you recover a few A/C systems in mild weather(containing R22, R410A, R407C). Tell me how cold the lower section of the compressor gets. This will be the refrigerant boiling out of the oil.

R290 also mixes in with the oil of a compressor. So blowing nitrogen through won't remove all of the R290. Recovering it is the only way to get all of it out.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> . This will be the refrigerant boiling out of the oil.
> 
> .


Which means it's turning into a gas which can be blown out with nitrogen.

You're just being argumentative now and I am not interested in playing that game. You are wrong and you have been corrected. You can take it ... or not. It makes no matter to me.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Nitrogen will not "blow out" refrigerant that's been absorbed into refrigerant oil. The system must be pulled down so that the refrigerant can boil out.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> Which means it's turning into a gas which can be blown out with nitrogen.
> 
> You're just being argumentative now and I am not interested in playing that game. You are wrong and you have been corrected. You can take it ... or not. It makes no matter to me.



It can take more then 15 minutes to boil (by vacuum during the recovery process) all of the R290 off(at low/mild outdoor temps). 

Using nitrogen. It may take hours, and you wouldn't know for sure if all of the R290 was out or not.

Like I said. After you have actually recovered some systems(recovering a heat pump in 20°F outdoor temps takes forever sometimes). You'll see. Till then, you have no idea.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

roughneck said:


> Nitrogen will not "blow out" refrigerant that's been absorbed into refrigerant oil.


I never for one second claimed nitrogen could.

It boils off on it's own with the pressure drop. Ever left the top off your coke bottle and come back later to find it has gone flat? Ever wonder why?

When it boils off ON ITS OWN it turns into a gas. *THAT* gets blown off with nitrogen.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Using nitrogen. It may take hours, and you wouldn't know for sure if all of the R290 was out or not.


You won't get it all out... not with nitrogen... not with a vacuum.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> You'll see. Till then, you have no idea.


I have most likely done more propane work than you have.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> I never for one second claimed nitrogen could.
> 
> It boils off on it's own with the pressure drop. Ever left the top off your coke bottle and come back later to find it has gone flat? Ever wonder why?
> 
> When it boils off ON ITS OWN it turns into a gas. *THAT* gets blown off with nitrogen.


At 70°F, CO2(the carbonation in soda) has a saturation pressure of 852 PSIG.
At 70°F, R290(the refrigerant we have been talking about) has a saturation pressure of 110 PSIG.

So yes, CO2 boils off at room temp fairly quickly(much much quicker the R290 will). But we aren't talking about CO2. And it is not comparable to R290.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> I have most likely done more propane work than you have.



I don't know. But now that you bring it up, how many propane A/Cs have you actually worked on?


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> I don't know. But now that you bring it up, how many propane A/Cs have you actually worked on?


Quite a few.

I have been building my own for years and using propane because until now I have had no reason to get a license in order to legally purchase the regulated stuff (r410, 134... etc). I've done cars with it... window shakers with it, fridges with it... etc.

I have done A LOT of backyard work with propane... most likely MUCH more than the average pro who have had legal access to the regulated refrigerants and therefore have had no reason to bother with it.... at least until as of late with the newer small appliances done with propane.

Backyard guys like me have LOTS of experience with propane... we've been doing it for years.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> At 70°F, CO2(the carbonation in soda) has a saturation pressure of 852 PSIG.
> At 70°F, R290(the refrigerant we have been talking about) has a saturation pressure of 110 PSIG.
> 
> So yes, CO2 boils off at room temp fairly quickly(much much quicker the R290 will). But we aren't talking about CO2. And it is not comparable to R290.


You're trying to get technical in order to side track. :thumbsup:

You said it needs to be recovered. I said no... it needs to be *EVACUATED*. New EPA regulations allow for venting. There is no need to recover.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Evacuating propane with a vacuum pump. Lets lots of nice flammable propane just hanging around the work area.

Recovering it keeps it in a container. Safe from accidental exposure to an open lame or spark.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Lots of techs have used propane in their cars. Not really a brilliant thing to do, but done.

Most techs don't use it for safety reasons. Never know what someone else will be doing if they try to work on it later down the road.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> You're trying to get technical in order to side track. :thumbsup:


No, I pointed out your trying to compare apples to oranges with your example.

Like trying to compare POE and MIN oil exposure to air/moisture.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Evacuating propane with a vacuum pump. Lets lots of nice flammable propane just hanging around the work area.


Right... so the epa changed the law so we could all blow ourselves up? Don't be silly.

It doesn't "hang around". It dissipates pretty fast and what doesn't is too weak of an air/fuel mixture to be of very much danger. You seem to forget we're talking ounces... not pounds.

Now that's not to belittle the dangers of propane. If you don't treat it with respect then it will surely bite you. If someone is dumb enough to vent it indoors in a small room and then have a cigarette directly afterwards.... well... they deserve what they're about to get for being so dumb... but that's not exactly what we're talking about here.

ONCE AGAIN.... The epa has OFFICIALLY okay'ed the venting of propane. It does not have to be recovered. If you feel that's wrong... then take it up with them.


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

*R290 22a*

Virgin R-22 in central Fl. customer price (last year) $65.00 - $150.00 per pound----------------22a and other refrigerants are flammable OK - some have gas stove-water heaters-furnace-etc etc in their home. IMO if air handlers had enclosed blower motor flammable refrigerant would be OK.:yes: Some of 22a company puts in additive so you can smell it.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

I think the OP figured he couldn't make a sale here and left........


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## DOUG1111 (Apr 13, 2015)

Bob good post inclosed blower motor in air handlers might make 22a more safe???? Comments please!!!!! Also heavy duty relay VS contactor ?? NO sparks


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

roughneck said:


> I think the OP figured he couldn't make a sale here and left........



Must be kinda strange to post on a DIY forum and have a half dozen high powered Pros' shoot holes in you. I would not want to go up against a few of you guys. Maybe one on one but not as a group.:no:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

I'm almost convinced he was involved in the eBay sale somehow. Why push it so hard and make such preposterous claims? 
I have yet to see a hydrocarbon in the field, but I know with the cheap price it goes for that it's coming. Not looking forward to it.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

aluminumwelder said:


> so let me get this straight, you looked at all the ebay feedback which only lists the first and last letter of their username like this: k***e
> and some how determined there were "many" repeat buyers?
> 
> how do you know they aren't different buyers with the same first and last letters? and who would actually waste their time to even try and figgure that out? sorry you are not tellign the truth, wouldn't surprise me if you were the seller himself trying to drum up business.


Dude! Do you know what spell check is??? tellign = telling

So, I got you convinced that I am that fleebay seller!!! :laughing:

The reason I know there are a lot of repeat customers because I read it in comments of the 20+ pages I zipped though in his feedbacks. duh

Man you need to move down my way, cause I got some prime swamp land to sell to you, down here on the bayou. :thumbsup:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Must be kinda strange to post on a DIY forum and have a half dozen high powered Pros' shoot holes in you. I would not want to go up against a few of you guys. Maybe one on one but not as a group.:no:


I have been business the last couple of days, as to why I have not been here. I guess I am not like you Yuri and whiskers to rush in here everyday like a little girls to see if I posted. Anyway, Bob's put all you so called pro's in your place, destroying all you propane haters, with very logical comments. I am still trying to figure out why some of you are hanging out here at a DIY forum, and not over at the HVAC-Talk forum, where the real pro's converse with each other. :lol:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> Right... so the epa changed the law so we could all blow ourselves up? Don't be silly.
> 
> It doesn't "hang around". It dissipates pretty fast and what doesn't is too weak of an air/fuel mixture to be of very much danger. You seem to forget we're talking ounces... not pounds.
> 
> ...


Your hung up on the EPA regs. EPA is not about personal safety. Only pollution.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> I have been business the last couple of days, as to why I have not been here. I guess I am not like you Yuri and whiskers to rush in here everyday like a little girls to see if I posted. Anyway, Bob's put all you so called pro's in your place, destroying all you propane haters, with very logical comments. I am still trying to figure out why some of you are hanging out here at a DIY forum, and not over at the HVAC-Talk forum, where the real pro's converse with each other. :lol:



There are a fair number of members here that are also members over there. Some post here, some just lurk here.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

We hang out on a DIY forum to give homeowners safe, logical advice on their equipment. Not to drink the kool-aide and believe in some miracle cure all snake oil being sold on ebay.
If this stuff is so great then why have I NEVER seen any fellow technician or maintenance person use it, EVER, in the 14 years I've been in this trade? Or witnessed a manufacturer experiment with it?


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Your hung up on the EPA regs. EPA is not about personal safety. Only pollution.


That's just a silly statement.



> How many ounces of propane are in a system that takes 8 pounds of EF-22A.


 'Ounces... not pounds'. It's an expression to denote size. 'Penny pinchers' don't actually pinch pennies.




> Harming one's self, or others is exactly what I have been talking about


 No. You were talking about recovering. You need to evacuate not recover. There is no law on R290 recovery anymore. You're hung up on making yourself right when you are not.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

roughneck said:


> If this stuff is so great then why have I NEVER seen any fellow technician or maintenance person use it, EVER, in the 14 years I've been in this trade? Or witnessed a manufacturer experiment with it?


It's not "great", and it's not "snake oil" either. It's just another refrigerant is all. The pros and commercial outfits have had no reason to use it prior to this point. The game is changing however since propane poses no threat to the environment in the way that the ones we usually use, do.

Meanwhile, back yard guys like me have been using it for years. I started using it back when R12 became hard to get in Canada. Back then there were no special little cans with neat names. Instead we pulled it right out of the same propane tank you connect to your BBQ.

The "snake oil" is in the claims some of these r290 venders make. It's not nearly as 'drop in' as they suggest. It works, but there is a difference between having it work, and having it work efficiently. Any system needs to be properly designed for the refrigerent in mind, and that includes propane.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

satman858 said:


> Anyway, Bob's put all you so called pro's in your place, destroying all you propane haters, with very logical comments. I am still trying to figure out why some of you are hanging out here at a DIY forum, and not over at the HVAC-Talk forum, where the real pro's converse with each other. :lol:


Sorry man... this isn't about putting pros in their place. I have the utmost of respect for BT and guys like him on this site. It's not often I get to correct BT. Usually it's the other way around. I'm just having a bit of fun with him because he's like me... he hates to admit when he's wrong


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

There is another alternative to R22 and as soon as the virgin R22 runs out "The Industry" is likely to use it. DuPont M099.

For liability reasons most major companies will not be interested in anything that has Propane in it for fear of lawsuits so they will go with the DuPont.

"The Industry" is a vague term like " The Church". No one group represents the Industry.

Of course there will be "techs" using "alternative refrigerants (aka serpent lube ) but they will do it because it is cheap. I can tell any customer his R22 is obsolete and I his savior have a replacement for it and he does not need a new system. Of course he will buy it without asking what is in it.

As far as HVAC talk, I am a Pro and don't need more technical info or education from them as I know it all. Not interested in their pizzzing contests. Helping homeowners and DIYers is why I am here ( good Karma points ) and to have some fun "debating" with Bob and the Boys. Also like to get into it in the Controversial Forum.:yes:

http://www2.dupont.com/ISCEON/en_US/products/ISCEON_MO99.html


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

How expensive is this ISCEON MO99 stuff?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

mikegp said:


> How expensive is this ISCEON MO99 stuff?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=dupont+M099


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not sure. I can still get the Virgin stuff and apparently it has a 10% loss of capacity. I am sure it is just as expensive as Virgin.

The residential market and R22 units will disappear in 10 yrs from age and worn out compressors etc. With less than 10% of the units now running there will be less demand for it. The big expensive Commercial units are different and maybe the M099 will be used there. Liability is a HUGE concern as well as proper oil return. No major Commercial companies are going to mess with some "alternative freon" for those reasons. If the M099 wrecks compressors then DuPont will be on the hook. I am sure they have torture and field tested a bunch of units with it for years B4 releasing it on the market unlike the home brew from Jersey.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

roughneck said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=dupont+M099


According to that it's $13/lbs. It also says it's a 25lbs jug on the box, but the description says shipping weight is 1.6 ounces.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

mikegp said:


> According to that it's $13/lbs. It also says it's a 25lbs jug on the box, but the description says shipping weight is 1.6 ounces.


The total weight is probably around 35 lbs for bottle and refrigerant. 
Not sure on anything else, I've never used it.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

Found another site that has the 25lbs jug for $260. No license required to purchase, but voids all warranties.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

mikegp said:


> Found another site that has the 25lbs jug for $260. No license required to purchase, but voids all warranties.


Many "alternative" refrigerants will


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

*Ok guys! You win I lose!!!:surrender:

*If you really paid attention to my post I used smilies but never a mad :furious: one. Chains were pulled, but on my side of the keyboard it was all in funny. If some people were actually offended by my comments I apologize to them. 

I ran across this R-22a product and thought I would throw it by you guys, however it was not just to replace my refrigerant. I will explain later. If my wife knew there was just a small chance of any danger by using R-22 for the problem she would be more than :furious: she would :bangin:and then I would be doing this :wallbash: all day long. 

I really do respect you guys otherwise I would not be here. As for as doing any of this myself, I have past the age of doing this kind of work like this anyway. A license tech friend will becoming out on Friday to do the work I need. Now here is the work I need.

I have a Rheem 5 ton unit and my compressor went out after 12 years. I know you guys are going to say after 12 years I should get a new unit. Just remember, I am old and money is an issue. My wife and I after weighing several options, like replacing the entire outside condensing unit, we made the decision to just replace the compressor, and just hope and pray we won't have problems just doing it that way. I bought a 5-2-1 Compressor Saver CSR-U3 Hard Start to add to my system, hoping that it will help out my new compressor. In the 12 year history of my Rheem unit, it was never serviced once, not single ounce of Refrigerant ever added. The Contactor went out once, and since it was so simple to change I bought one and changed it myself, after watching a Youtube video on how to change it.

Now seriously here is where I want you guys professional help. REALLY I do respect you guys trade and your professional judgment. With that I ask a few of questions.

1. Should I ONLY use virgin R-22 after replacing my new Copeland compressor, or would recycled R-22 be ok?

I am thinking about doing this. I throw it by my Hvac tech friend and he had no problem doing this for me. Since the production of R-22 will be ending, I asked him about buying me a 30lb tank when he buys the compressor, use what is needed when he changes out my compressor, and I leaving the tank with me stored here at my house, and should I ever need to use it, I will have him just come out to add more to my unit.

2. Does this sound like a good thing to do? 

3. I was thinking about having him add a stop leak when adding the refrigerant as a precaution. What is a good stop leak product?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

First of all did you ever clean the outdoor unit/coil? If not that will kill the compressor as the freon pressure will be too high and overwork it. Especially on some Rheems you have to take the top off to get at the part of the coil behind the compressor.

Obviously your friend can get R22 at wholesale $$ price so buy a jug.

Stop leak is another product that will get you roasted. Suffice to say most Pro's hate it and it rarely works. It can plug up your metering device and cause problems.

Be careful what you read on the net. There are LOTS of wannabee techs/Apprentices/Fakers and pretenders out there telling people all kinds of rubbish.

What actually happend to the compressor?

Did it seize up or burnout?

If it burned out then you need to replace the liquid line drier and flush it with Rx11 and add a suction line filter drier to decontaminate it. 

We like to have some fun here arnd I LOVE to shoot trolls.:2guns::2guns:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> First of all did you ever clean the outdoor unit/coil? If not that will kill the compressor as the freon pressure will be too high and overwork it. Especially on some Rheems you have to take the top off to get at the part of the coil behind the compressor.
> 
> Obviously your friend can get R22 at wholesale $$ price so buy a jug.
> 
> ...


Yes, I did do a very good hose cleaning of condenser coil as soon as I started seeing signs of a problem. The compressor did not go out right away. As for as a burnout. I was asked by the tech if I every smelled an odor come from the the outside compressor unit, which I never did, so he believe that it was not a burnout. He will be replacing the dryers. 

Any other opinions from other guys will truly be appreciated.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The only way to know if it was a burnout is to smell the actual freon plus test the oil in the compressor with an acid tester. Kinda wonder about your "tech" but Good Luck anyway.

The coil needed to be cleaned by vacuuming the coil with the top removed and backwashing once /yr for other readers of this post. Fail to do so and you get.:hang:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> The only way to know if it was a burnout is to smell the actual freon plus test the oil in the compressor with an acid tester. Kinda wonder about your "tech" but Good Luck anyway.
> 
> The coil needed to be cleaned by vacuuming the coil with the top removed and backwashing once /yr for other readers of this post. Fail to do so and you get.:hang:


Well explain how you do test of the oil in the compressor with a acid tester, when the compressor is dead with open windings?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

You remove the oil from the compressor. 
In a residential unit this involves removing the compressor


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Right On.:thumbsup:


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

satman858 said:


> Well explain how you do test of the oil in the compressor with a acid tester, when the compressor is dead with open windings?



Cause the little acid testor I use says the compressor has to be operating....but if I just use it on the suction line and it registers acid...WTF....there is acid there...

Here is my vent for the day.

All this talk about R22 and using propane to replace it...etc....etc....etc... I have been converting my customers to r410a since 2005, most of them are on the new stuff...no problems...So how come its R22 has to go away time and now people are worrying about it now???? If you had a good contractor that stayed abreast of new regulations..and counseled you accordingly...none of you would be here trying to get a few years out of something that should have been replaced long ago.

Bottom line

R22a propane based is available and like the marketing gurus do...they take a negative and turn it into a positive.....less amount...less pressure....less energy used.....which by the way means it doesnt generate the same amount of cooling energy----but hey----they never said that did they?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Good contractor. Heck why should you wash your condensor or get the freon checked. Them contractors are nothing but thieves anyway. Then again maybe some maintenance prevents expensive compressor failures and lowers your elec bill.:yes:


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## HVACDave (Oct 16, 2007)

An interesting conversation, but realistically, there are already drop ins to replace r-22 available that are classified as A1 refrigerants (which is the real problem with your 22a product). In order to make it legal to use in residential systems and public occupancy buildings you would have to see many of the building codes in place be changed. 

Conversion to 407c requires an oil change, conversion to MO99 does not. 
MO99 has been used in large quantities in the US already, so it must be readily available. (Last report I heard was over 10 million lbs of it used so far in US.) That was from a DuPont rep last week.

As contractors and tradespeople there is no current need to put our licenses or reputations in danger by using alternate products than those that we know are safe and appropriately classed for use at this point in time. Whether or not they work satisfactorily or not is a mute point to the professional tech who does things properly.

As in all cases, opinions vary, and we have seen many in this string, but the intent of the pro's here is to give the DIY'er some decent guidance and caution of how things should be done, as well as how they shouldn't.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Good contractor. Heck why should you wash your condensor or get the freon checked. Them contractors are nothing but thieves anyway. Then again maybe some maintenance prevents expensive compressor failures and lowers your elec bill.:yes:


That however is certainly not true, as I never had a cleaning service done with a compressor check in the entire 12 year history of the unit. Had I paid for the HVAC serviceman contract of $185.00 a year (which is the going rate in my area) I would have just gotten a $185.00 wash job to my condensing unit, because I never EVER needed refrigerate. 

$185.00 for 12 years = a $2,200.00 wash job. 

Hell after 12 years my compressor was on it's last leg away. We all know these companies make compressor's just good enough to last out their 10 year warranty. :yes:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> That's just a silly statement.
> 
> No, its ture.
> 
> ...


No, its recover. I don't ant to just get it out of teh system. i want to put it in a cylinder where its safe to store it. And I didn't say it is a law, or reg. Thats you being hung up on the EPA.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> Hell after 12 years my compressor was on it's last leg away. We all know these companies make compressor's just good enough to last out their 10 year warranty. :yes:


You should have a Copeland scroll compressor in your condenser. Copeland provided a 36 month warranty on the compressor. Rheem held the other 84 months. 

Copeland scrolls last a lot longer then 12 years on average. So you or you tech need to find out what really killed the compressor.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

satman858 said:


> Hell after 12 years my compressor was on it's last leg away. We all know these companies make compressor's just good enough to last out their 10 year warranty. :yes:


Compressors rarely just "die", they are killed. Very rarely have I changed a compressor and not found some sort of contributing factor that led to the compressor failure


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> No, its recover. I don't ant to just get it out of teh system. i want to put it in a cylinder where its safe to store it. And I didn't say it is a law, or reg. Thats you being hung up on the EPA.


As stated before... there is no law preventing YOU from recovering the propane if YOU wish. That doesn't change the fact that it does not have to be.



> No, its ture.


First google hit on epa and safety:


> EPA’s Current Agricultural Worker Protection Standard (WPS) is a regulation published in 1992 that is aimed at reducing the risk of pesticide poisoning and injury among agricultural workers and pesticide handlers.


From wiki:


> The *United States Environmental Protection Agency*[2] (*EPA* or sometimes *USEPA*) is an agency of the U.S. federal government which was created for the purpose of protecting human health and the environment by writing and enforcing regulations based on laws passed by Congress.[3]


Once again... very silly statement. You're starting to act like a drowning man here. The entire premise of the epa is about health and safety. Building a clean and healthy environment for us to live in. The very idea that we are not allowed to use propane in larger devices PROVES the epa is worried about safety. Larger devices pose a threat because of the larger volumes of propane and the better the chance of an explosion.

Let me know when you want me to throw you a life preserver BT


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Your compressor could easily last 20 yrs. If you believe it is just a wash job we do you are entitled to your opinion. 

Most quality techs check the voltage, amps, indoor coil, freon level, drain, wiring, superheat or subcool and other important points. A simple loose connection on the compressor can harm it.

Running low on freon and with a dirty outdoor coil will kill any compressor. Yours may have died from usage but not doing proper maintenance does not help. If your local techs are hackers that is too bad. The Pros here do proper maintenance.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Technow said:


> All this talk about R22 and using propane to replace it...etc....etc....etc... I have been converting my customers to r410a since 2005, most of them are on the new stuff...no problems...So how come its R22 has to go away time and now people are worrying about it now????


People are looking for that cheap 'drop in' answer



> R22a propane based is available and like the marketing gurus do...they take a negative and turn it into a positive.....less amount...less pressure....less energy used.....which by the way means it doesnt generate the same amount of cooling energy----but hey----they never said that did they?


Propane is actually a pretty good refrigerant as refrigerants go. Just running your BBQ on high and you will notice the top of the propane tank getting a little cool.... but it's not a drop in answer. The marketing gurus are adjusting pressures and volumes to try and make it more efficient in a system which wasn't designed for propane. In effect they're selling you a square hole and round peg and telling you it fits perfect.


----------



## HVACDave (Oct 16, 2007)

Hey Bob,

What do you think the building codes were created for? You seem to be slamming BT for EPA comments, but at the same time pointing out there are government regulations to be followed, yet in the same breath say there is no law about recovering the propane which you introduced into the refrigeration system, which you are now using as a refrigerant, which is in direct neglect of the building code, which is also a regulation. Seems like you may be the one that needs a life preserver.

No one said propane wasn't a good refrigerant, just that it isn't a good idea to use it where it doesn't meet the application guidelines created for public safety. (just like the EPA, as you quoted)


----------



## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Running low on freon and with a dirty outdoor coil will kill any compressor.


This is the exactly reason the tech believes my compressor went out. Remember he knew the freon was low because the coil inside was freezing up, as to causing the warm air blowing out of the duct vents, and the colder air coming threw the return air vent. Also remember that I cleaned the condenser coil after the frigg went low, not before the new season started, (which was my fault not my units fault) and most likely my compressor had already sustained damage by then. He also mentioned that he believes that lack of oil in the compressor, with it having low freon caused the compressor to die. We absolute do not know for sure about a leak. But he said, the fact that the original frigg (that came with the unit 12 years ago) was the last time frigg touched the system, could well be why the frigg had gotten low. I guess we will find out in time.




yuri said:


> Your compressor could easily last 20 yrs. If you believe it is just a wash job we do you are entitled to your opinion. Most quality techs check the voltage, amps, indoor coil, freon level, drain, wiring, superheat or subcool and other important points. A simple loose connection on the compressor can harm it. If your local techs are hackers that is too bad. The Pros here do proper maintenance.


My mom and wife at work place pays for a tech yearly service contract, and I have personally seen what they do. They just hook the gauges up, clean the condenser, and check voltage on the components on the outside unit. Never have they ever went in the attic to check anything in the up stairs unit.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Still nobody has answered my question many pages back, as to if they would only put virgin R-22 refrigerant with this compressor today. 

What would your recommendation be?


----------



## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Test the refrigerant for acid. Test kits are cheap and easy to use. 
Being the failure was how you describe, it's sounds like a burnout which would require the system to be cleaned up internally and also require virgin refrigerant. 
If the burnout was especially bad then the tech might have to return to change the driers. Also a bad burnout should require a temporary suction filter/drier. This would be removed after some extended runtime


----------



## HVACDave (Oct 16, 2007)

I would make the switch to M099, if you have the option. The price for the refrigerant is currently 2/3 the cost of virgin r-22 and is compatible with all your r-22 equipment components. Going forward r-22 is only going to go up in price, so future service will cost more with r-22 than other options. If you will see the savings depends on whether your contractor will pass on the price savings on the cost of refrigerant to you, or not.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> As stated before... there is no law preventing YOU from recovering the propane if YOU wish. That doesn't change the fact that it does not have to be.
> 
> First google hit on epa and safety:
> From wiki:
> ...


And according to our Constitution, the entire premise of our government is "we the people". And it hasn't been like that for a couple hundred years.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

satman858 said:


> Still nobody has answered my question many pages back, as to if they would only put virgin R-22 refrigerant with this compressor today.
> 
> What would your recommendation be?



Only pure R22 from a tank.

EVER


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

HVACDave said:


> Hey Bob,
> 
> What do you think the building codes were created for? You seem to be slamming BT for EPA comments, but at the same time pointing out there are government regulations to be followed, yet in the same breath say there is no law about recovering the propane which you introduced into the refrigeration system, which you are now using as a refrigerant, which is in direct neglect of the building code, which is also a regulation. Seems like you may be the one that needs a life preserver.
> 
> No one said propane wasn't a good refrigerant, just that it isn't a good idea to use it where it doesn't meet the application guidelines created for public safety. (just like the EPA, as you quoted)


Left hand not catching up with the right is all.
It's not that there is (was) no law. It's that it has been CHANGED. Indeed it was changed in May of 2014.... less than a year ago. Until such time it was included in the venting laws.


----------



## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> And according to our Constitution, the entire premise of our government is "we the people". And it hasn't been like that for a couple hundred years.


????
Two things come to mind...
1) Might this be fact... or your opinion?
2) Just how far off the beaten track are you willing to take this?



> The OP has been asking about a larger device. Not a little 4 oz cooler.


Then there is no such thing as venting, evacuating, recovering... etc, because the law prohibits propane being used in larger devices.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Here is the EPA not caring about public health and safety 



> *EPA Warns Against Use of Refrigerant Substitutes That Pose Fire and Explosion Risk*
> 
> 
> *WASHINGTON* – The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is warning homeowners, propane manufacturers and sellers, home improvement contractors and air conditioning technicians of potential safety hazards related to the use of propane or other unapproved refrigerants in home air conditioning systems.



http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...61416ea839b0618e85257b9b0065aec0!OpenDocument


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> ????
> Two things come to mind...
> 1) Might this be fact... or your opinion?
> 
> ...



So you missed the fact that the OP was asking about a larger appliance, a 5 ton A/C.

Whether you like it or not. People are buying R22A and using it in their regular split system A/Cs instead of real R22. Sorry, but some people don't care what the law says.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> So you missed the fact that the OP was asking about a larger appliance, a 5 ton A/C.


No, but just for the sake of argument... if I missed it then so did you. You're talking about "recovering" when it's illegal in the first place.



> Whether you like it or not. People are buying R22A and using it in their regular split system A/Cs instead of real R22. Sorry, but some people don't care what the law says.


No argument there.



> Allowed or not. It is used in certain larger appliances. And it has to be recovered to work on them.


WRONG. ONCE AGAIN....
The law has changed. You don't have to recover. You should consider evacuating. You need to learn the difference between the two terms.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> So you missed the fact that the OP was asking about a larger appliance, a 5 ton A/C.


Not withstanding, here is your statement:

post 27


beenthere said:


> Propane/R290 is not new technology


post 41


beenthere said:


> If you don't recover the R290. Then you have the potential to blow up the system if you use a torch to braze a leak, or braze in a new LLFD.


You're going to have to make up your mind what you want to argue about. R290 is not necessarily R22a. It contains propane but it can also contain other things. You keep flipping back and forth.

R290 does not NEED to be recovered. You can if you wish but the law has changed.

Now... would you like to stick to the thread and 22a, or do you want to talk about r290 as suggested above, or would you rather go off on more wild tangents and talk about presidents and voting... maybe fishing or igloos?

Of course it might just be easier to admit your were wrong... and move on


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

wow really..what is the purpose and how does it help the op....


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Sanders said:


> No, but just for the sake of argument... if I missed it then so did you. You're talking about "recovering" when it's illegal in the first place.
> 
> No argument there.
> 
> ...



You keep talking about the EPA not requiring recovery. Your hung up on the EPA.

I am not talking about an EPA requirement. But about how it needs to be done safely. 

I know the difference between recovery and evacuation, been doing both for a long long time. R290 needs to be recovered to work on the system safely(ain't talking about little appliances with 4.98 oz of charge). It would be foolish to blow off several pounds of it and then use a torch.

Just because its not allowed to be used in larger systems, doesn't mean it isn't. And with the advise you were first giving, the OP would have been putting it in his 5 ton A/C. 


As you said, EF-22A is R290/propane. Guess you don't realize it has been put in systems that contain several pounds of charge. And it needs to be recovered to safely work on those systems. 

EF-22A is propane. With an odorant added. Look at the P/T chart for EF-22A, and then look at the P/T chart for R290. Its the same. 

From their MSDS:

Company: EcoFreeez Inc. Product Name: EcoFreeez EF- 22a Refrigerant 
(206) 426-0677 Proper Shipping Name: Petroleum Gases Liquefied 
UN Number: UN1075 
Dangerous Goods Hazard Class/Division: 2.1


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> I am not talking about an EPA requirement. But about how it needs to be done safely.
> 
> I know the difference between recovery and evacuation, been doing both for a long long time. R290 needs to be recovered to work on the system safely(ain't talking about little appliances with 4.98 oz of charge). It would be foolish to blow off several pounds of it and then use a torch.


No. You weren't talking about that before. It's simply what your story has converted itself to. Here, let me remind you what you said:

Post 41:


> If you don't recover the R290. Then you have the potential to blow up the system if you use a torch to braze a leak, or braze in a new LLFD.
> 
> Just blowing it off, will not get all of it out.
> 
> Makes me wonder how many people bought that stuff thinking they can just blow it off, and then safely use a torch around the unit.


Clearly you were talking about residual gas *inside* the system. You have switched your argument merely because you believe you have a better chance at coming off looking right with this new angle 

Venting propane is just like anything else... if done PROPERLY there are no issues. If done improperly you can hurt yourself. For that matter, if you recover improperly you can hurt yourself.... walking across the street without looking... you can hurt yourself.

Indeed they specifically place an odor in the gas so that you can smell it to *verify* whether or not it has dissipated. Super-Freeze in fact is being investigated by the FBI because they DIDN'T include the odor and people got hurt.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

I have said how to do it the safe way, the whole time. Of course I have been talking about residual gas in the system the whole time. Hence the need to recover to do any repairs in a safe manor. You didn't even know we were talking about a 5 ton A/C until I pointed it out.

Just tell it to suit your wants Bob.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

beenthere said:


> I have said how to do it the safe way, the whole time. Of course I have been talking about residual gas in the system the whole time. Hence the need to recover to do any repairs in a safe manor.


Residual gas is removed by evacuation, not recovery. Once again, R290 does not have to be recovered anymore. It can be vented and it can be vented in a safe fashion. If you as a refrigeration tech can't vent propane in a safe fashion then maybe you should be looking at another line of work.



> RECOVER:
> 1. to get back or regain (something lost or taken away):
> 
> EVACUATE:
> 2. remove air, water, or other contents from (a container).





> You didn't even know we were talking about a 5 ton A/C until I pointed it out.


LOL! Trying to turn your mistake into mine! Oh how low can we go!


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> I have said how to do it the safe way, the whole time. Of course I have been talking about residual gas in the system the whole time. Hence the need to recover to do any repairs in a safe manor. You didn't even know we were talking about a 5 ton A/C until I pointed it out.
> 
> Just tell it to suit your wants Bob.


Can't wait for Bob to come back cause he WILL. :laughing:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The reason I don't spend a lot of time on Pro forums. Just a bunch of pizzzing nonsense on obscure details that don't really matter.

This will go on a LONG time.:laughing:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Pro's the AC tech came out yesterday and change out both the Compressor and the Dryer, but he ran into another problem. 

I will explain what happened first, and then I want you guys to tell me if you think he may be right in his assumption to the problem. 

OK, at first as he began adding the virgin R-22, both the low and high pressure on the gauges begin going up, with the thermostat in the house going down from 80 down to 77. Then problems begin to occur. The pressure on the low side of the manifold stopped going up and then started going down, however the pressure on the high end stayed steady at around 200. As this begin to happen he went upstairs and tried tapping on the thermal expansion valve, trying to get it to flow, because that is where he believes the problem is. He said tapping it, sometimes unclogs it. But it didn't work. So on Monday he suppose to be buying me a new TXV and replacing it. To replace the TXV, he will now have to do a entire vacuum of the system all over again, (and after saying that, then he told me that the new virgin R-22 just put in today, SHOULD NOT be recycled) meaning new virgin R-22 will be pumped in all over again. With this said, please answer the following questions by number. Thanks everyone for your replies and help!

1. When changing out a compressor do you feel that the TXV should have be changed out as a normal procedure for a compressor replacement?

2. Should I be the one to have to eat the labor cost time for him to do a vacuum again, and pay for the cost of addition virgin R-22 he will be needing to reinstall because of the faulty TXV, or is that problem something that sometimes happens, and I should be the one to eat the cost of both of these things?

3. Do you guys feel from the paragraph above of what happened, he is making the right evaluation that this problem truly is a faulty TXV?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Could be a clog or a faulty expansion valve. 
Being this is above and beyond the scope of the compressor replacement, you should be the one to pay for the additional work. 
This is why major repairs are rarely done on residential equipment that's out of warranty


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

1. No way to know with a dead compressor that a TXV is bad/not working right.

2. No reason teh R22 he just put in has to be replaced with new refrigerant. He can recover it in a clean recovery cylinder, and reuse it. He should recover it using a new 052 flare LLFD, and then put it back in the system using either the same or a new 052 LLFD.


3. May or may not be a TXV problem. Tapping on a TXV is not a proper way to tell if its the problem or not.

4. Yes, this may be what killed your original compressor.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

There is a LOT of variables here and I /we need to know a bunch of readings to diagnose it.

Ideally when you start a new system or after a compressor change/ I will use average temps this happens.

Outdoor temp 70 F, Indoor 76F.

1) Compressor starts and as he adds freon the pressure will climb to about 65psig. As the evap/indoor coil cools down AND the house temp drops it will come down to around 50psig. At the same time the discharge pressure will be around 175-200 and will stay there. It only changes when the outdoor temp increases or the house heats up.

3) After 20-30 min of running I check the temp drop across the evap and if it is 16-20 deg F you are Golden.

Not sure why he thinks there is a problem. If a TX valve is plugged it will pump down and you will get very high discharge and very low suction.

Does it cool properly and are you getting 16-20 F drop across the coil. If so you may not have a problem. I am sure he is trying hard and we all have to learn but there may or may not be a problem and without ALL the readings we cannot know for sure. There is a superheat reading and humidity to factor in but I gave you the basic under average conditons. 50% RH outside and 40% inside.

Did it eventually cool the house below 77F or just keep running.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

beenthere said:


> 1. No way to know with a dead compressor that a TXV is bad/not working right.
> 
> 2. No reason teh R22 he just put in has to be replaced with new refrigerant. He can recover it in a clean recovery cylinder, and reuse it. He should recover it using a new 052 flare LLFD, and then put it back in the system using either the same or a new 052 LLFD.
> 
> ...


Extra plus for #2


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Did he test the oil for acid?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

One thing I did not add is that when he did the work the outdoor temperature was 87 degrees with the indoor temperature 80 degrees.




yuri said:


> Did he test the oil for acid?


Was not home most of the time he was there doing this install and didn't ask him that. I will ask when he comes back to change the TXV.



yuri said:


> Did it eventually cool the house below 77F or just keep running?


No, actually after it went down indoors from 80 to 77, and the reading on the low pressure gauge begin to drop the temperature indoors rose back up to 80. I might add as the low pressure gauge (blue) dropped, the high pressure gauge (red) did increase above 200. After that increase happened he let some of the pressure out, before he left to go home.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Usually when a TX valve is bad it is bad and does not happen all of a sudden. Meaning it should have been bad when he started and gave unusual pressures not after running 1/2 a hr. All this is speculation as none of us were there to know what he did.

I suspect your tech who may be a nice guy is a bit in-experienced. Lots of crazy shi*t happened to me when I was learning along with the other Pro's and sometimes jobs go bad and you have to figure them out by trying different things. It may be the TX valve but w/o any of us seeing the pressures etc it is impossible to tell.

Post # 89 asking you to sniff for an odor is not the way to check for a burnout nor is tapping the TX valve to make it work which leads me to question how much he knows.

If it was a bad burnout then crud may have got into the TX valve.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

87 outdoor temp, R22 should be in the range of 225 to 260 depending on its efficiency.

He should have weighed in the initial charge. And adjusted from there.

How low did the suction pressure drop.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Usually when a TX valve is bad it is bad and does not happen all of a sudden. Meaning it should have been bad when he started and gave unusual pressures not after running 1/2 a hr. All this is speculation as none of us were there to know what he did.
> 
> I suspect your tech who may be a nice guy is a bit in-experienced. Lots of crazy shi*t happened to me when I was learning along with the other Pro's and sometimes jobs go bad and you have to figure them out by trying different things. It may be the TX valve but w/o any of us seeing the pressures etc it is impossible to tell.
> 
> ...


Actually I have to question your experience not his. He has been in this business for more than 20 a years, and just may know a few tricks of the trade that you never learned yet. He has tapped on many expansive valves over the years and temporarily got them cleared up. Just over the past few months he said he had done tapping a few times to his own mother's expansion valve, before it no longer worked, and he had to then change it out. He didn't change it right away, because her's required braising, while mine can be just be changed by way of the plugs on tubing coming from both sides of the expansion valve. As far as the smell from the compressor at the time last year when it went out, he asked me this before ever even looking at the unit. If you don't know that compressor burn outs can give off an odor, then maybe you haven't been around when it went out. That is however common knowledge in the Hvac business.

*Compressor*



 A burned out compressor will cause a refrigerator to give off a burning smell. Similarly, compressors that are in danger of burning out completely will emit a burning smell while they draw too much current from your power supply. Dust on the terminals on either end of the compressor will get hot while the refrigerator is running, which can also cause a burning smell. Clean the terminals, then replace the compressor if the smell persists.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> 87 outdoor temp, R22 should be in the range of 225 to 260 depending on its efficiency.
> 
> He should have weighed in the initial charge. And adjusted from there.
> 
> How low did the suction pressure drop.


I were referring of the air temperature both indoor and outside of the house. 87 degrees was the temperature of the weather outside yesterday, knucklehead. Today it might even reach 90 which is burning hot!!! :furious:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The burnout is from the freon/oil inside the compressor gettting burnt when the windings burn out. As it is a hermetic unit you cannot smell the freon/burnt oil unless it is leaking. Not something I ask my customers. With electric motors they will smell. So may a household fridge. Tapping a TX valve may loosen it temporarily. Like Been~ said it may have caused your compressor to fail along with a dozen other possibilities. Hopefuly he acid tested it and is not lying to you or you will be doing this procedure/compressor with a year.

Internet diagnoses can be tricky and hopefully he solves your 
problem.

PS We don't condemn and change fridge compressors by smell. They have a overload which shuts them down when they start to or seize/ on the starting relay. Not sure where you are getting your snoop dogg troubleshooting info from. Real techs use a amprobe not their nose.:no::laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> I were referring of the air temperature both indoor and outside of the house. 87 degrees was the temperature of the weather outside yesterday, knucklehead. Today it might even reach 90 which is burning hot!!! :furious:


I know you were referring to the outdoor temp. So was I. At 87°F outdoor temp. Depending on the condensers efficiency, the head pressure should have been between 225 and 260 PSIG.

Now, how low did the suction pressure drop?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I would remove the TX valve and flush the lines thru with nitrogen.

Install new valve and drier and weigh in the charge according to the amount on the model # plate. Then check the temp drop across the coil and superheat and subcool temps.

I am sure he knows how.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> The burnout is from the freon/oil inside the compressor gettting burnt when the windings burn out. As it is a hermetic unit you cannot smell the freon/burnt oil unless it is leaking. Not something I ask my customers. With electric motors they will smell. So may a household fridge. Tapping a TX valve may loosen it temporarily. Like Been~ said it may have caused your compressor to fail along with a dozen other possibilities. Hopefuly he acid tested it and is not lying to you or you will be doing this procedure/compressor with a year.
> 
> Internet diagnoses can be tricky and hopefully he solves your
> problem.
> ...


Wake up :sleep1:dude! You need to quit ASSuming and ask to hear the REAL story before posting stupid snoop dog jokes.:no: 

I personally knew from the get go I had open windings on my compressor, because I PERSONALLY did a ohm out test for resistance on the compressor MYSELF with my multimeter before I even called him out. He new this, and before he looked at it he asked me if I had smelled an odor coming from the compressor. (I am guessing he asked this to see if it might have went out mechanically or electrically.) I had him double check it, and he confirmed with his own multimeter, what I already knew, that the compressor had open windings and was bad. duh


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> I know you were referring to the outdoor temp. So was I. At 87°F outdoor temp. Depending on the condensers efficiency, the head pressure should have been between 225 and 260 PSIG.
> 
> Now, how low did the suction pressure drop?


I am not exactly sure, but I think he said something like 85. Does that sound, like that could right?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> I would remove the TX valve and flush the lines thru with nitrogen.
> 
> Install new valve and drier and weigh in the charge according to the amount on the model # plate. Then check the temp drop across the coil and superheat and subcool temps.
> 
> I am sure he knows how.


I guess l should ask him to do what you say. Because you are the guru of this forum who every tech around here bow down too. :laughing::notworthy:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Why do you keep getting an additude with those trying to help?
The compressor doesn't smell on the outside, it's the odor of the refrigerant that can be an alert. Even so an acid test should be done to be certain. 
Being it sounds like you had a burnout, normal cleanup procedures should be followed. Like acid treatment and returning to change driers if deemed necessary. 
Tapping on a TXV neither proves not fixes anything.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Not sure why he thinks there is a problem. If a TX valve is plugged it will pump down and you will get very high discharge and very low suction.


This is exactly what happen. :yes: 

So with your statement don't you yourself believe that this looks like the problem? :wink::yes:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Why do you keep getting an additude with those trying to help?
> The compressor doesn't smell on the outside, it's the odor of the refrigerant that can be an alert. Even so an acid test should be done to be certain.
> Being it sounds like you had a burnout, normal cleanup procedures should be followed. Like acid treatment and returning to change driers if deemed necessary.
> Tapping on a TXV neither proves not fixes anything.


It is the added little comments, that get's guys. :bangin::laughing:

Man some of you guys are something else. You should know that if a expansion valve is clogged that tapping could possibly free the clog up. He was only doing this for temporary purposes to help us to have AC over the weekend, because he would not be able to get an expansion valve until Monday.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Valves don't normally clog from solid debris. It's the slurry of burned oil and sludge that normally kills them, as we have all seen when we remove the valve for diagnosis teardown. 
I'm sure he made sure to check if it had a screen to, and what condition it was in


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

I realize this thread got hijacked because of the pissing contest from some numbnuts in canada....

......**** it....nevermind..... what a worthless thread from the lack of information from the op and all the ****.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> I am not exactly sure, but I think he said something like 85. Does that sound, like that could right?


85 PSIG would be too high for an R22 system, when the indoor temp is below 90, and the outdoor temp is less then 100.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Okay. Now wearing my Moderator hat. Please don't make any post that are disrespectful toward any member. We expect all of our members to treat all of our other members with respect.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

To roughneck, 
He has not changed the TXV yet, as he needs to find a TXV first, and remove the refrigerant before removing the TXV.



Now to all the license HVAC guys I really could use your help. I am getting a little concerned about him being able to replace my TXV with the original TXV part that came with my unit 12 years ago. I would think many parts that are 12 years old are hard to find. Since I am not a license HVAC tech and not able to contact Rheem for this information. 

I know this would be my techs job to do, but as much as I hate to say this, I am thinking that I may have made a mistake in hiring him. The attic is probably 110 degrees since it is near 90 outside, and he seems to not want to change it if he would need to replace it with a sweat TXV. If he would be able to get the original TXV that came with the unit, it could be changed at both ends of the tubing, without needing to do any braising. With this said, please help me guys on this.

Could or would one of you HVAC license guys contact Rheem for me, and see if they still have or make the original TXV's for a 5 ton rheem Model# RBHC-24J21SHG unit and Serial# T M2003 10492, or see what replacement TXV's they suggest using?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

He should be able to contact Rheem and see. 
If the valve is no longer available one can be easily built at the counter in the supply house. All you need is body style, refrigerant, temperature range and capacity.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> He should be able to contact Rheem and see.
> If the valve is no longer available one can be easily built at the counter in the supply house. All you need is body style, refrigerant, temperature range and capacity.


He mentioned something about a universal TXV. Can I or should I use a universal TXV when Rheem might have the original part or a replacement for my older model?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

If the original is available then by all means use that. 
But a properly selected replacement would work just fine. 
This is providing this is the actual problem and you didn't just clog up a drier or strainer


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> If the original is available then by all means use that.
> But a properly selected replacement would work just fine.
> This is providing this is the actual problem and you didn't just clog up a drier or strainer


He replaced the dryer when he replaced the compressor, so I would doubt the dryer is clogged. Don't know what you mean by strainer. What do you mean by strainer?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not to hijack my Buddy Roughneck.

There is a strainer/mesh screen in the inlet of the TX valve or in it.

If it were my job I would recover the freon. Check the tx valve strainer if it has one. Flush the lines with nitrogen to make sure there are no blockages. There may have been a bunch of burnout crap that got circulated and plugged a drier or the TX valve.

Rheem should have a TX valve or cross reference for it.

All joking and smart azz sheet aside ( which I plan to cut down on ) we want to help you.

It can be hard to tell your guy what to do and I doubt he will like it but you have a major problem here. If it was a burnout and the acid test proved it then he should have put on a suction line filter drier and new liquid line filter drier and purged it with RX11 flush and nitrogen. 

That is standard procedure.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

The fact that the drier was recently replaced means nothing. I've witnessed them clog within seconds of compressor startup on a badly contaminated system, such as a bad burnout. 
There are sometimes strainers just before critical devices like TXVs. On flair body valves they go in between the flair nut and valve body. 
He should change the drier again when he opens the system back up to replace the valve. Driers hold moisture and contaminates, they do not eliminate them.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Yuri, I am glad you came in!!!

I will take and post photos of what work he did in a couple hours, and I will talk to him about your suggestions, when he comes out rather he likes what you say or not. 

Now would you guys do me a favor, and call Rheem for me, and find out what the TXV part or cross reference part number is, so I can call him and demand that he inly replaces it with that part and not some off brand TXV universal part?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I am a Lennox dealer. I cannot just call Rheem and where I am they have a secondary distributor which is rather difficult to use at times.

If it were my job I would sit down and negotiate with him.

Say you found out some info on the net about the procedure to replace a compressor ( in a nice non accusing tone ). I have been thru these crappy situations hundreds of times. Either I dealt with it or my Service manager did plus myself.

If you want to save the system IMO this needs to be done:

1) Recover freon and it can be re-used.

2) Take inlet off the TX valve and see if there is a screen. May just need cleaning

3) Flush the liquid line as it will be off to check the screen with nitrogen to see if it is blocked

4) Put a new liquid line AND suction line filter drier on. The suction one can be expensive up to $50-100 depending on size and what he marks it up.

5) Pull a 500 micron vaccum or at least a good 1 hour vacuum if he has no micron gauge ( Not going to get into whether he has one or "knows what he is doing" ).

6) Weigh in freon according to the Rheem amount on the model # plate. Check superheat and subcooling. There may be a chart in the electrcial box or install manual.

If anyone wants to add or subtract to this feel free as we don't all do things the same way.

** Be diplomatic ** as no one wins when fingers get pointed. Sounds like he is a decent guy and these crappy situations happen to everyone.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Thanks for the info and time you took to post. I can understand why you can not contact Rheem for me. Hopefully someone else in the forum can contact Rheem or a Rheem supplier and get that TXV part number for me.



Here are the pics below of the work done so far, along with both of my Rheem upstairs and downstairs unit tags.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Is this a heat pump?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Is this a heat pump?


I do not believe this system has a heat pump, but I do not know for sure. 

How can I determine this?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Does the outside unit run in the winter?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't see a reversing valve on the suction line or accumulator.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Does the outside unit run in the winter?


I am pretty sure it doesn't. Something tells me I believe this unit has a heat strip. Were they around 12 years ago?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Where exactly do you live?

It may be a airhandler with a heat strip rather than a horizontal furnace.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

It is an air conditioner... not a heat pump.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Where exactly do you live?
> 
> It may be a airhandler with a heat strip rather than a horizontal furnace.


The southeastern USA.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

It's an AC not a heat pump and it has heat strips. Look at the tags. It looks like a 2 stage heat strip 15/21 Kw

If you're in the Southern USA then I wouldn't fix that relic. Trash it and get a heat pump. In the Southern USA you should be able to run a heat pump year round with very little dependance on the heat strips. That would amount to a pretty big savings on the annual heating bill.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Bob may be right. If you have a high elec rate and live in a hot climate then going from a 10 SEER AC to a 16 SEER or higher will save a lot of $$ in elec plus your heating costs will be a lot less.

Going to require some serious upfront costs for a new heatpump and airhandler ( with a heat strip for when the heat pump cannot keep up but may be rarely used ). Other problem you may have is your + 10 yr old unit may spring a freon leak in the indoor coil and then you are back to replacing it.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Guys, I can't afford not to save this system now. I am already almost $1,500 into it at this point. My wife still works, but I am unemployed with no money coming in. 
Compressor ------- $694
R-22 Refigerant---- $375
Sporlan Drier ------ $20
[email protected]$67.= $368

Total money out so far $1457.00

One thing I am fortunate about is a have a energy that the rates are very low. My 2,100 sq ft home is totally electric, and my electric bill has never been over $200 a month in the 10 years I have lived here. My average electric over the past 12 month year was $108.14. Actually the bill runs a little higher in the winter, (probably because I don't have a heat pump), but the saving by having one with my small electric bill would not be that much at all.

Bob, Yuri posted this reply I will quote below about what he would do to try to save my system, could you give me your opinion too, as to what you would do, and since I know you read my tags, if you can find out from Rheem TXV model number they recommend I use to replace it, I would also appreciate that too?



yuri said:


> If it were my job I would sit down and negotiate with him.
> 
> Say you found out some info on the net about the procedure to replace a compressor ( in a nice non accusing tone ). I have been thru these crappy situations hundreds of times. Either I dealt with it or my Service manager did plus myself.
> 
> ...


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Not trying to interupt or be smart but I know Bob and he is a Power Engineer and operates boilers in a powerhouse. Doubt he can get that Rheem info for you.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Yuri is correct. I don't know much about Rheem AC's

What I will say is that if you have already dumped $1450 into it and it's still not running correctly then I would cut the losses and chuck it. You can get a new 5ton AC unit complete with new indoor coil for something like $1498 (free shipping). That's with the new R410 refrigerant.

What you have now is a 1450 dollar money pit with not much warranty to speak of.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

I haven't followed this whole thread but went back 3 pages. It seems you may have a restriction and possibly acid, correct? When you open the system up again I would add some acid away to neutralize any possible acid residual. If your contractor would check he might be able to replace the txv with a piston(flow rater). They cost about $3.00. As for the txv, if you still want one I copied your model # and could call Rheem tomorrow. Let me know


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

McGee said:


> I haven't followed this whole thread but went back 3 pages. It seems you may have a restriction and possibly acid, correct? When you open the system up again I would add some acid away to neutralize any possible acid residual. If your contractor would check he might be able to replace the txv with a piston(flow rater). They cost about $3.00. As for the txv, if you still want one I copied your model # and could call Rheem tomorrow. Let me know


Sorry to read this so late, please call Rheem for me.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

I will call tomorrow.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

The model# rbhc-24j21shg. 
The number they gave me was (rxct-chl)
The cost was $103.13
eBay has it for $50.00


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Okay guys! The tech said that one of the suppliers says that have a TX valve for my my unit. (McGee, please still call Rheem for me today and post back the model number you get from them, thanks!) 

His is coming out today with that TX valve, and I took some of you guys suggestions, and I told him when he gets to the supplier to pick up the TX valve, buy another dryer as roughneck suggested in post 154, and to also buy a RX-11 pro flush start kit as Yuri suggested in post 153, because I want him to do this job right, and get the residue in those lines all cleaned out too. The $100 or so I spend on this kit, many be the best investment I make with this system. By the way guys, I asked him if he did an acid check and he said NO. So the fact that this was not done, even more makes my feel that all of this needs to be done, and right this time. 

Also, I asked him about checking out the strainer/mesh screen first to see if it just can be cleaned instead of replacing the TX valve. He said the strainer/mesh screen was enclosed inside the TX valve, and he said although buying a new TX valve, after he opens up the old TX valve, he plans on trying to blow it out with nitrogen to see if it can be salvaged. If it can he would just return the new one he bought. 

Any other suggestion on what else he should do, post them back Please! 

One more thing concerning what Yuri says in the quote below. The tech said there was only a one dryer made for my system. I do not remember what filter drier he said he changed. I believe it is the suction line filter drier, see attachment photo below, and tell me what filter drier this is?

Yuri



yuri said:


> If it was a burnout and the acid test proved it then he should have put on a suction line filter drier and new liquid line filter drier and purged it with RX11 flush and nitrogen.
> 
> That is standard procedure.


About the fact that he did not do an acid check. Should I have him buy an acid test kit, and if acid is found, should it be dealt with after the R-22 flush? 
Also, what should I suggest he do if acid is found?


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

I sent you the numbers above before your last post. I always use acid away to neutralize any acid residual. It's cheap and additional insurance.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

McGee said:


> I sent you the numbers above before your last post. I always use acid away to neutralize any acid residual. It's cheap and additional insurance.


Thanks McGee! 

Could you link me to the product you use to do this?





McGee said:


> The model# rbhc-24j21shg.
> The number they gave me was (rxct-chl)
> The cost was $103.13
> eBay has it for $50.00


If the ebay seller http://www.ebay.com/usr/theacoutlet?_trksid=p2047675.l2559 "theacoutlet" if the guy on Ebay you are referring to, that is $50 with $21.92 shipping, his auction says it is for a 4 ton. Well, I have a 5 ton, should that matter?


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

You can pick up an acid away at any a/c store. There are more than one brand. Make sure it is for r22. The txv should match the outside unit. Txv's are rated for more than one application. Not sure about this one but some may go from 2-3 ton and some 3.5-5 ton. Most likely it covers 4 and 5 ton systems. Myself I would just pay the additional cost and pick it up locally but if your trying to save money and taxes then online might be better.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh Lawd here I go again. DO NOT get me wrong but IMO this guy does not know what he is doing or have the necessary experience. Not sure what he has been doing for 20 yrs. Don't get upset but it is the way it is. I see LOTS of techs who are no better than him. I have a ton of experience and so does Been~ and a few others here but we are not there.

Your system may have acid in it now because he did not test it properly in the first place and deal with it properly then. Now the acid is in your new compressor oil. If he does not know what a suction line filter drier is then he is not well experienced. Any half decent refrigeration tech knows what it is but I suppose AC guys don't unless they have been to proper trade school and not learned on the job like this guy.

They ARE available and he needs to talk go to a refrigeration parts wholesaler and ask for one. It matches the size of the suction line and we install it in the line outside the unit as it is rather large. The drier he changed is the liquid line drier. The bigger line is the suction line. You want to filter both. He must wrap a wet rag on them when welding or they will get damaged.

He probably will not know what to do with a RX11 flush kit and it is difficult to use if you don't know how. I would skip it now. If he puts a new liquid line drier and suction line drier on there is a good chance they will catch the acid. Not familiar with this acid away product but if it is available and he can figure it out then he should use it.

I am NOT running him down as it is apparent what his experience is. Not too often you get top notch techs like Been~ and myself but that is just life and the way it is.

If he puts those 2 new driers on and uses that acid product and pulls a 1 hour vacuum there is a very good chance your system will be OK.

Sorry to upset you but you must see by now his skillset or lack of.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Yuri is offering some good advice. We are all trying to help.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Just a addition to Yuris post, it's a good idea to return later and remove the suction drier. They can clog and cause compressor damage, or rot from sweating, or cause system performance issues. 
Never unsweat a drier. It's much better to cut them out. Unsweating them can boil the contaminates right back into the system out of the filter media and desiccant


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Oh Lawd here I go again. DO NOT get me wrong but IMO this guy does not know what he is doing or have the necessary experience. Not sure what he has been doing for 20 yrs. Don't get upset but it is the way it is. I see LOTS of techs who are no better than him. I have a ton of experience and so does Been~ and a few others here but we are not there.
> 
> Your system may have acid in it now because he did not test it properly in the first place and deal with it properly then. Now the acid is in your new compressor oil. If he does not know what a suction line filter drier is then he is not well experienced. Any half decent refrigeration tech knows what it is but I suppose AC guys don't unless they have been to proper trade school and not learned on the job like this guy.
> 
> ...


You need to reread my post Yuri!!! I AM the one that said I DO NOT REMEMBER WHICH DRIER HE CHANGED, (that is why I posted the picture) He knew right away about both the suction filter drier and the liquid line filter drier, but my unit ONLY comes with 1 drier. I believed it was the liquid line filter drier that does NOT come on my unit, but I was wrong. It was the liquid drier he replaced before, as there was no suction line drier that came with my Rheem unit. 

I just talked to him, and I am getting him to "ADD" a liquid line filter drier ALSO, along with the suction drier he will be replacing "ONCE" again. He also bought a 4-Ounce Bottle of Rectorseal 45004 Acid-Away Compressor Burnout Neutralizer. So after he either changes the TX valve, or if the screen can be cleaned and not need to replace the old TX valve, he will then replace the 2 driers, put an hour vacuum, as Yuri suggested, and I will be hoping and praying it will be okay. If not I will have to go the route of the R-11 flush method.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Evac should be conducted using a micron gauge rather then a just a certain time.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

If the system test positive for acid. Then the proper Sporlan filter driers for clean up would be a C-163-S-HH for the liquid line, and either a C-166-S-T-HH or C167-S-T-HH suction filter drier depending on suction line size.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> If the system test positive for acid. Then the proper Sporlan filter driers for clean up would be a C-163-S-HH for the liquid line, and either a C-166-S-T-HH or C167-S-T-HH suction filter drier depending on suction line size.



beenthere,

The suction line is 7/8", so would it be the C-166-S-T-HH or C167-S-T-HH suction filter drier?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Evac should be conducted using a micron gauge rather then a just a certain time.


With my luck so far, I doubt that he will have a micron gauge. If not, how long would you suggest that he vacuum the system?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> beenthere,
> 
> The suction line is 7/8", so would it be the C-166-S-T-HH or C167-S-T-HH suction filter drier?


C-167-S-T-HH would be for 7/8" suction line.

All HH filters are clean up filters. Removes wax and acid from system.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

If he doesn't have a vacuum guage....why are you wasting your time with him.

I have had systems take 30minutes to 4 hours.... but the only reason I knew was I had a vacuum guage (actually I carry 2 just in case one breaks on the job)


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> C-167-S-T-HH would be for 7/8" suction line.
> 
> All HH filters are clean up filters. Removes wax and acid from system.


Please answer these questions by numbering them as I am asking them.

1.) Are you are telling me that these 2 Sporlan brand of driers with the "HH" at the end, should be used before replacing the driers he has already purchased, because they are designed to work much better at remove wax and acid from the system, then the normal driers he bought for me?

2.) Should I also have him use the "Acid Away" at the time when he installs those Sporlan "HH" series filter driers?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Technow said:


> If he doesn't have a vacuum guage....why are you wasting your time with him.
> 
> I have had systems take 30minutes to 4 hours.... but the only reason I knew was I had a vacuum guage (actually I carry 2 just in case one breaks on the job)


He may have one. I will ask him if he has a vacuum gauge when I talk to him. Like I said in previous post. I was not at home when he did the work the first time.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Can "acid away" be used in a poe system?

The website for Acid Away only mentions, (mineral oil or alkylbenzene type of refrigeration oils).


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

beenthere said:


> C-167-S-T-HH would be for 7/8" suction line.
> 
> All HH filters are clean up filters. Removes wax and acid from system.


Could a C-307-S-T-Hh work on my system too, because that is what he bought?


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Some acid away is designed for most all oils including poe.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

McGee said:


> Some acid away is designed for most all oils including poe.


McGee,
It looks like the one in the photo is the one he needs.

Also McGee, he found 2 pin hole leaks in the evaporator coil. What brand stop leak would you recommend?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

satman858 said:


> Can "acid away" be used in a poe system?
> 
> The website for Acid Away only mentions, (mineral oil or alkylbenzene type of refrigeration oils).


I don't use it, since I put a HH in the suction line of a system that test positive. or that I suspect has acid from a burn out. But it is made for POE oil as well.



satman858 said:


> Could a C-307-S-T-Hh work on my system too, because that is what he bought?


That filter will work fine. Larger then needed, but no harm.

A 167 has 16 cubic inches of desiccant, a 307 has 30 cubic inches.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

I would not use stop leak. I have had compressor failures because of it, then you also have a mess to clean up. Sounds like its time to replace the coil now. The only other option IMO is to braze the pin holes carefully without unbrazing near by joints. I have done that but only as a last option. Others may like leak seal but I thru what I had left in the trash. I have heard that some are better than others. Remember if it fails you are back to square one and possibly voiding the compressor warranty.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If it is 12 yrs old then it is likely a 10 SEER coil which is obsolete. The minimum is 13 SEER now and if it is built into the airhandler is a special size. He can check with Rheem if it is available but I highly doubt it. If it has 2 pinholes then it probably will have a few more about to spring open soon. Not sure what your best option is and that stop leak VERY few Pros use as it can plug up components and do a lot of damage.

If you run a 13 SEER coil with a 10 SEER outdoor unit you will not get proper pressures or cooling.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Like I said I haven't read all the posts but a 13 seer coil would only be larger than a 10 seer coil. It should be fine with a txv but may be about as cheap to replace the whole airhandler. I have used slightly larger coils many times with no issues. Some say you may lose a little latent heat removal but I haven't had any problems. Unfortunately you seem to be having a string of bad luck.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

How did he find leak? I thought he was just doing the TXV? Why weren't the leaks discovered during the pressure test immediately after the compressor replacement?
My company has banned the use of any stop leak other then in systems that are getting ready to be scrapped or are otherwise of throw away status. 
I'm being completely honest here, talking to you with my experiance. I will add I don't have any personal interest in what you do-stop the bleeding now. Start saving to replace the entire system. You've invested thousands of dollars with no guarantees on performance or warrantys. Next week you could loose a blower or outdoor fan or even pop a hole in another part of the system. I've seen it happen, and it makes me shake my head everytime. By the end of all this I'd almost guarantee you'll have invested several times over what a replacement system would have cost. I wouldn't sink another dime into that old unit. It WILL keep rolling the bill up farther and it's operation or longevity is questionable at best. 
Now, I've seen several red flags that would make me call into question the ability of the tech your using. Seems like your having to make a lot of the decisions for him. 
See, the thing is a good tech should not only be able to fix things but also have the customers best interests in mind during the entire diagnostic and repair process. Plus a good tech should show up with the proper tools and supplies and be ready to go. It seems like yours is just spinning his wheels and not getting anywhere. Which is rolling your bill higher and higher. 
Is this a company your using? A moonlighter doing this on the side? Cheap guy you found off Craigslist? 
Like I said, I only offer suggestions and mean nothing personal. I'd love to see you get your problems fixed


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

At the end of the day we don't even know if the TX valve is bad. Our OP could not provide us with any accurate operating pressures. Would be a shame if he changed the TX valve and the problem is elsewhere. Maybe the compressor is bad or damaged. Apparently it stopped building head pressure. post #124. If the TX valve was plugged it should pump down and build head pressure and lose suction which it does not sound like it did. The tech should be able to recognize this and not condemn the valve. I was not there and the descriptions we have are vague and impossible for us to know the problem w/o the pressures. Only so much you can do over the net.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

I forgot to ask, did your tech provide you with any suggestions on protecting the unit from future low pressure conditions, so the compressor isn't killed again? 
You really need to stop and evaluate where you go from here.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

yuri said:


> At the end of the day we don't even know if the TX valve is bad. Our OP could not provide us with any operating pressures. Would be a shame if he changed the TX valve and the problem is elsewhere. Maybe the compressor is bad or damaged. Apparently it stopped building head pressure. post #124


Could be that the TXV's power head lost its charge. And that its replaceable. Cheaper and faster then changing out a TXV. 

A pic of it would tell us if its replaceable or not.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I really don't want to insult his tech but as we all know some people are just parts changers or have never been trained properly. He*ll half the techs in my company I would not let into any of my relatives houses.

From doing this for too long a time I am too analytical and can judge techs and their skillset and maybe I should stop that here. May end up with less helpful info, I have to sort that concept out.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

OK guys! I will try to answer as many questions that my memory serves you asking, to let you know what happened yesterday. I am VERY much considering taking your suggestions on just cutting my cost and moving on from here. 

(If you have any other questions about the work the tech did feel free to post them.)

The tech came out on Saturday, and he recovered what was left of the refrigerant he put in one week ago last Saturday. It seemed to not take but about 5 minutes to do, so I think it may have leaked out quite a bit over the past week. Remember though last week he found a blockage, as the low pressure (blue) liquid side of his gauge keep dropping. So after removing the R-22 yesterday, and (I think running a vacuum) he went upstairs and changed the piston in the TXV, and said he said the TXV was okay. After doing that he wanted to run nitrogen threw the lines, I guess to see if there was a blockage there, or to see just how dirty the lines were. So with the lines upstairs unhooked I was the downstairs guy at the control of the nitrogen. By my home telephone intercom system we communicated with each other. He told me when to open the valve handle, and what pressure to adjust it to. After doing this he said that some oil came out on the lines upstairs, but not all that much, and it appeared to be free of any blockage. He then reattached the lines upstairs and we pumped in nitrogen, that is when he slide out the coil from within the air handler, and checked the coil for leaks (by I guess the old fashion way) of soap and water. I watched him do this, and we seen 2 pin hole leaks on 2 spots of the coil. He then marked them with a marks-a-lot. He left the gauges on the unit for me to check the falling pressure with just the nitrogen in the system. In 18 hours now the low pressure (blue) suction side has dropped from 205 to 170, and the high pressure side from (red) liquid side from 220 to 195. I do not know it this matters, but the gauges he has hooked up are R-134A and not R-22 gauges. Give me your opinion on the pressure drop with even the unit (not running) as to just how bad you think this leakage is?

I will post back after your comments are given as to what options I may want to take.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

That's a decent pressure drop. 
You may repair or replace the coil and then find more leaks. 
You said you had a TXV. Why did he replace a piston? Which do you have?


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Please get another contractor!


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

I don't know what roughneck means by a decent drop. Does decent mean more than that 2 pin hole leak? 

Now 24 hours later the low pressure (blue) suction side has dropped from 205 to 163, and the high pressure side from (red) liquid side from 220 to 185. 

Give me your opinion on the [COLOR=blue !important]pressure drop[/COLOR] with even the unit (not running) as to just how bad you think this leakage is?

I do not know if this matters, but the gauges he has hooked up are R-134A and not R-22 gauges. Does that fact that theR-134a gauges he is using, not R-22 gauges make any difference.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Any leak is bad. It should not drop any pressure if he is using nitrogen. If he has freon in there then it may change 1-2 psi and go up/down as the outdoor temp changes but no more. You got a bad leak and we cannot tell how many pinholes there are. There may be more he has not found. Sounds like the coil is thin and rotten to me.

Does not matter what type of gauges as pressure is pressure. Refrig gauges are meant for several types of freon. R410 is a LOT higher than R22 so we need higher pressure hoses and gauges plus we do not want POE oil getting into a R22 system or mineral oil into R410 systems so we use 2 different sets ( or should ).

In theory a R410 set can do any refrigerant but we don't want oil mixing and you get oil in the hoses when you take them off etc.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Where are these pin holes in the coil. In the coil section with the aluminum fins, or at a bare copper section.

From your description of the leak rate. Its a bad enough leak that it wouldn't have worked for long after he recharged it.

While I can't say for 100%, you most likely had these leaks when he changed out the compressor.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

beenthere said:


> Where are these pin holes in the coil. In the coil section with the aluminum fins, or at a bare copper section.
> 
> From your description of the leak rate. Its a bad enough leak that it wouldn't have worked for long after he recharged it.
> 
> While I can't say for 100%, you most likely had these leaks when he changed out the compressor.


I'd second that last part, and add the leaks led to a low refrigerant charge situation that very well could have led to the death of the old compressor. 
Low charge burnouts can be very messy. Major cleanup is sometimes required.
To add to an earlier post, a burnout such as this can lead to a very acidic nasty smell. This will come from the refrigerant and/or oil. You will not walk up to the equipment and smell the evidance of a potential burnout. An experianced nose will sometimes catch it when the gauges are attached during diagnosis.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

To the OP, to answer your question, it doesn't matter what the gauges are rated for. A nitro pressure test is almost the same across the board. A drop in pressure like you describe is an automatic failure. 
This should have been caught by the pressure test and micron gauge he should have done after the compressor changeout. 
Your situation is textbook of the reasons it's not a good idea to perform major repairs on a residential system that's out of warranty. If this system is fixed, there are no guarantees it'll stay running next week, next month or next year. Literally you could loose a blower motor, outdoor fan motor or even suffer an irreparable leak in the outdoor coil a week after the service man leaves.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Okay HVAC guys, I am ready to take all your bashing!!!

I have not talked to the tech friend of mine yet, but I placed a call tonight into him on his answer machine, saying do not do anything more, and saying that I needed to talk to him. After losing sleep all of last night worrying about all of these problems I have been facing, and the things you guys said today, my wife and I plan on giving up on this expensive adventure. What I am thinking about doing I am sure will bring REAL bashing by you guys, because it will go against what you do as your business income. Anyway I am throwing it out on the table. If we can get a few FREE estimates for an inexpensive central air and heat unit, and see what their labor cost would be, we would weigh it into our decision, but I doubt it will be anything close in price to what I am thinking on doing. Well here it is below!!!

About a year ago I bought a $300.00 Shinco 10,000 btu portable air condition unit for my bedroom from Walmart, because it was always hot at night in our room. You see the ducts in our room is furthers room away from the attic unit. In just 10 minute I hooked this little unit up connected the accessories, and had it running out of our bedroom window. This little thing has been totally maintenance free. You see it has a self-evaporative system with no water tank, and the condensing water is recycled to improve the efficiency through cooling condenser. I fell in love with this little unit, I have felt it was the best decision I made in 2014. Maybe it just may come through again, and help make up for the worst decision I made in 2015, by trying to get this 12 year old Rheem central air unit working again. 

My thought thoughts are now this. My older 5 ton unit is a total of 57,000 btu's, so what I would plan to do is strategically put 4 more of these little units throughout my house, which would give me a total of 50,000 btu's of air conditioning cooling in my house, and if the house were to get cooler than need be, I can simple shut down 1 or 2 of the units, which would naturally lower the temperature. 4 more of these little portable units would be right at $1,300 tax included. 

OKAY GUYS HAVE AT IT!!! I WANT TO HERE ALL THE NEGATIVES OF DOING THIS!!!

P.S. This little portable unit can be seen in the link below:


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

We aren't bashing, just trying to guide you before any more of your money is waisted trying to bring a 12 year old unit back from the grave. 
What will you do for heat with portable air conditioners? If you allow your existing system to leak down to nothing, you run the risk of contaminating the lineset, which I'm not sure if you'd want to reuse that for future air conditioning. 
I'd also be a bit concerned about energy usage and cost. 
Sounds like you have duct issues if you have hot rooms.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

First since there are no ducts etc to cool down they would be more effecient so you may get away with less btu. Second you should have designated circuits for each one. Is your elect able to handle them and at a minimal each is on a separate circuit and each is enough amps to support the unit and other loads on that circuit? Only proper extension rated for them and preferable none.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Unless you plan to die and leave the house and lack of central AC problem to your kids how are you going to sell it w/o one? Eventually someone will have to deal with it and as mentioned the lines will get ruined unless you get them capped off/sealed at both ends.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Unless you plan to die and leave the house and lack of central AC problem to your kids how are you going to sell it w/o one? Eventually someone will have to deal with it and as mentioned the lines will get ruined unless you get them capped off/sealed at both ends.


Yes we did considered that. I am 60 and my wife is 58, and my wife's two grown kids would want to sell the house, and not want to live here. Since that's the case, putting in central air then would be small investment to get, close to 300 grand for our house with 3 acres of land on it. 

You bring up a good point about the lines. Since my confidence level with the tech is no longer very good I ask you this instead of him. How exactly do you cap off the lines? Do they make copper caps?


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Yes, you braze the lines with copper caps and stick valves, do a quick evacuation and charge with nitrogen.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

McGee said:


> First since there are no ducts etc to cool down they would be more effecient so you may get away with less btu. Second you should have designated circuits for each one. Is your elect able to handle them and at a minimal each is on a separate circuit and each is enough amps to support the unit and other loads on that circuit? Only proper extension rated for them and preferable none.


Well the btu's would not be much less at 50,000 comparing to the 57,000 the old 5 ton unit had, so I see it as not that big of issue. They will be in different places, but I didn't think about that about designated circuits. You do make a good point about designated circuits. I assume you are saying that there should not be more than one unit per breaker. If that is correct, I assume you have concerns about the information I will list below. I know we have used a blow dryer in the master bathroom at the same time the unit we have now was running, and it did not trip a breaker, so that room seems to be good. About the other units I was planning on buying. Two of the bedrooms I was planning to put two of units are not being use. One of the units would be placed on the back porch which we just just spent $3,000 to enclose which I think would be okay. The last could be a reason to be concerned, as it will be in the breakfast room which is close to my master bedroom where the one I have my currently using is located.

Do you suggest I take a blow dryer to the outlets I plan to put these units, and do a breaker test to make sure there are no units on the same breaker?


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

roughneck said:


> Yes, you braze the lines with copper caps and stick valves, do a quick evacuation and charge with nitrogen.


So you are saying that only two caps are needed. Only the end of the two lines in the attic need to be capped, correct?


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## WyrTwister (Jul 22, 2013)

Each unit should have its own circuit ( circuit breaker and wiring ) . Forget the blow dryer .

Cap each lines at each end . 4 caps . That is what I would do . And evacuate , then pressurize with dry nitrogen .

As has been indicated .

God bless
Wyr


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

Maybe I am missing something, but how would lines get "ruined" that are already sealed for a pressure check....or even if its still connected to the unit....what is the difference if the unit has to be replaced by new owners anyway....

ITs just a copper line??? Its not open where bugs get in it???? Water just gonna fill it up???? 50 years from now I would flush and re-use if not replaceable.

Part 2

From your description above-let the heirs pay for it. Put em in the will. When they go to sell it and the home inspector comes in.....they are going to have to do it anyway.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

If he leaves the lines they way they are now hooked to a leaking evap coil all the freon will leak out. Then they are exposed to the atmosphere ( in theory ). Not that rain is going to pour in but you don't want refrig lines exposed to the atmosphere. Or so they taught me in trade school.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

yuri said:


> If he leaves the lines they way they are now hooked to a leaking evap coil all the freon will leak out. Then they are exposed to the atmosphere ( in theory ). Not that rain is going to pour in but you don't want refrig lines exposed to the atmosphere. Or so they taught me in trade school.


:thumbup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Get the window shakers and save your $$ for a year and buy a proper system in the off season when prices are better if you have a off season. Sell the shakers on flea bay later.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Even if the breaker will hold, it really should have its own circuit. If it is on a breaker that your computer, tv, etc is on it could cause a problem with those loads such as flickering etc which could damage sensitive electronics. You can flip breakers one at a time and see what each controls. The copper lines can be pinched shut and soldered or even a compression fitting and caps if you don't have a torch at outside if the old unit is removed. I wouldn't worry much about the pinholes.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> If he leaves the lines they way they are now hooked to a leaking evap coil all the freon will leak out. Then they are exposed to the atmosphere ( in theory ). Not that rain is going to pour in but you don't want refrig lines exposed to the atmosphere. Or so they taught me in trade school.


Nitrogen is the only thing in the lines.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

yuri said:


> Get the window shakers and save your $$ for a year and buy a proper system in the off season when prices are better if you have a off season. Sell the shakers on flea bay later.


my price is the same off season or not. If a contractor has to give his work away during the off season.....yeah....he's probably a good one....NOT.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Get the window shakers and save your $$ for a year and buy a proper system in the off season when prices are better if you have a off season. Sell the shakers on flea bay later.


Now you're being a joker again, yuri. Truth be told from reading reviews of owners of this portable I have, they seem to be lasting longer, and being more reliable than most of this big companies central air and heating units they sell.:thumbsup:


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Once the nitrogen leaks out then they are exposed so they need to be sealed.

Some companies have sales/promotions in the off season to generate work. Nothing to do with giving away his work. Lennox has promos where you get free upgrades on the unit if you buy a pkg at certain times of the year. Costs us nothing but the customer benefits from it and so does Lennox.

Window units used to be loud and crude and vibrate ( shake the windows) and in the same category as swamp coolers. Kinda a trailer park trash thing. The new ones are better but HVAC techs don't think much of them as they are non repairable.

A house with 4 shakers would be a tourist attraction where I am.:yes::laughing:


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

yuri said:


> Once the nitrogen leaks out then they are exposed so they need to be sealed.
> 
> Some companies have sales/promotions in the off season to generate work. Nothing to do with giving away his work. Lennox has promos where you get free upgrades on the unit if you buy a pkg at certain times of the year. Costs us nothing but the customer benefits from it and so does Lennox.


Yes, they pay for part of the rebate they give and the price is built into the price they sell at. Do they really tell you at the company you work at that lennox sends a bill for the rebates???:thumbsup:

Its like HVAC financing offers......You pay $800 more for the system and then pay interest on the larger amount.:thumbsup:


So....why are the rebates offered in spring and fall????? If its to benefit anyone "off Season"


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I am not going to argue. What I see is if you buy a furnace and AC and filter box or humidifier pkg you get the next tier up quality AC. That is normally a $500 value. Of course it costs Lennox $50 but it still value for the buyer.

As far as sales if I am struggling now and can sell a few units for $100-200 less and line up some work for June then we do so. As we all know we make a fortune when it gets hot so to have less of a fortune now is better than none.

If you have the same price year round and a steady clientele then good 4 U. Most companies have to compete and price is everything.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

If price were EVERYTHING, the guys doing 1/2 a job will rule the world....but they can't because like all the posts like this where people put price above getting a great job by a knowledgeable reasonably priced contractor. And reasonably doesn't mean the cheapest you can get if for. 

For perspective: I am a small company...same price spring summer fall winter ....I don't participate in rebates from my distributor because I have to pay more to pay them back with an "advertising fee"... I don't finance because I have to raise my price and offer a "cash discount" to cover the "bank buy-in" because the bank does not want the customer to know you have to pay a fee on their behalf to offer the financing. I like my life simple, I offer a price that isn't the lowest (there are plenty of unknowlegable guys for that) and I am not the most expensive...(I am not advertising in my city as some astounding rate on radio and tv)


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

nevermind


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Window units used to be loud and crude and vibrate ( shake the windows) and in the same category as swamp coolers. Kinda a trailer park trash thing. The new ones are better but HVAC techs don't think much of them as they are non repairable.
> 
> A house with 4 shakers would be a tourist attraction where I am.:yes::laughing:


Yuri, you must live in an area of nose up snobs. :no: The attitude of spoiled kids of today is simply amazing. As a kid I grew up with NO air condition, as I live 2 or 3,000 miles south of you on the bayou where even at NIGHT with the window open, we learned to sleep with 85 degree temperatures and 90% humidity. I wished I could see you through this screen because you up there may be the one living in Bubble's and Ricky's neighborhood. :yes::laughing:

As for the other subject. Portable units are not window units, as the one I have is very quiet, and actually produces white noise that is rather soothing and comforting. :thumbsup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Are these single or 2 pipe units. If single pipe, they might bring in a lot of fresh air that will need to be conditioned. or they may be over whelmed by the fresh air, and not be able to get the humidity low enough.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Ah, portable not window shakers.

From what I heard like Been~ said they have issues with humidity removal etc.

Ricky and Julian and Bubbles are my heroes. I have all the shows and movies on DVD. I grew up next to a trailer park.

One of my favorite shows is Swamp People so yeah I have a idea what the bayou is about.:yes:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Okay guys I want to be fair with the work the tech did, but I also do not want to be taken advantaged of either. I need some questions answered.

I agreed from the outset that I would pay him labor at the rate of $67.00 a hour. He worked 5.5 hours the first Saturday, and 2.5 hours the second Saturday totaling 8 hours which would equal $536.00. Here is where my questions start. He said to me from the outset, that he would be willing to buy back the virgin R-22 tank he bought for me, (because he could use it for other jobs) and just charge me for what he used in my unit.

1. Is there any way of telling from my upstairs and downstairs tags I will post below, just how much R-22 my unit takes, so I would know how many pounds of R-22 he used the one time he filled my my unit, after running the initial vacuum?

2. Should I be responsible for paying him money for the nitrogen he used, and if so, what would you guys charge?


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

It says 192oz or 12 lbs. Usually you will add .6oz for every foot of line over 15 ft. That is assuming he charged it correctly. With all the mistakes that were made etc I am not even sure what to say is fair.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

yuri said:


> Ah, portable not window shakers.
> 
> From what I heard like Been~ said they have issues with humidity removal etc.
> 
> ...


I live in the most humid area in not just the USA, but the entire North American continent. (THE BIG EASY NOLA BABY!!!) 
I don't know what type of issues you may be speaking of by saying there are humidity removal issues to think about, but I have been using one of these portable units in my bedroom for a year with all the doors closed, including my bathroom door and have not any problems. 

To spite the fact that I live closer to the Swamp people (as a matter of fact one of the guys on that show lives in my town) I am a Duck Dynasty man. :thumbup:


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

McGee said:


> It says 192oz or 12 lbs. Usually you will add .6oz for every foot of line over 15 ft. That is assuming he charged it correctly. With all the mistakes that were made etc I am not even sure what to say is fair.



When I talked to him before he came out he thought my unit would take about 6 lbs. If I would had thought about reading the tags myself and know this, I might have questioned my decision on hiring him back then.

I do not think the line is even 15ft long, so are you saying it would be a minimum of 12 lbs.?


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, some people don't care about humidity so if it does not bother you then forget it.

Everyone is different. If you just want cool air then the portables work. However you need to remove windows or somehow exhaust them. That is not easy and those plastic accordian fences that come with them don't always fit well. Having to remove windows and blank them off with plywood or whatever to make them work sounds bush league to me. For one unit maybe and especially if you have no other option in a rental or apartment. To do a entire house sounds like a Bubba job but whatever works for you go 4 it.

I hate snakes so I doubt I could live anywhere with reptiles and spiders and bats etc. The human body adapts to it's climate and people think we freeze to death where I am. After a week of -5 to -10 Celsius you get used to it and can open your jacket and be OK. We have immigrants from Africa and the Phillipines and they adapt well. Same with the Bayou I imagine.

Only people who freeze to death are drunks who pass out in snowbanks or alleys.

Home is where you hang yer hat.


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## McGee (Jun 12, 2014)

Yep, 12 lbs.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Could someone answer the following question.

Should I be responsible for paying him money for the nitrogen he used, and if so, what would you guys charge for any nitrogen used?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

12 pounds.

Min of 20 bucks for the nitrogen.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Thanks beenthere for your opinion on what you would charge for the nitrogen.

Could other people give me there opinion on what they would charge for the 12lbs of nitrogen?


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

I would want to steal the job from beenthere, so 19.99 minimum

And then again, I would make it back on something else......Lots of pieces and parts are in this business that are in the TOTAL $$$....not necessarily these items.


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## Technow (Nov 12, 2010)

This thread reminds me of a story from my youth.

there was a retired guy living across the street from my grandfather's shop. One day my grandfather is going into town to run errands and sees the guy across the street hitchhiking. My grandfather being neighborly picks him up to take him into town. On the way my grandfather asks "is there something wrong with your brand new cadillac?" the guy replies "No, I just don't want to spend money on the gas" My grandfather got to the next corner, let him out, and said I'm not going that direction.


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## satman858 (May 4, 2015)

Technow said:


> This thread reminds me of a story from my youth.
> 
> there was a retired guy living across the street from my grandfather's shop. One day my grandfather is going into town to run errands and sees the guy across the street hitchhiking. My grandfather being neighborly picks him up to take him into town. On the way my grandfather asks "is there something wrong with your brand new cadillac?" the guy replies "No, I just don't want to spend money on the gas" My grandfather got to the next corner, let him out, and said I'm not going that direction.


You need to teach your grandfather that things are not same in this Satanic world we live in, and that it certainly not wise to pick up strangers, cause one day you will find him on the side of the road dead in his car.


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