# No splice made. Does metal j-box need to be grounded



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Metal box equals shock hazard. YES you need to attach a ground to the box, from the incoming ground.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Even if like I said the conductors are "just passing thru"??


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Minus08 said:


> Even if like I said the conductors are "just passing thru"??


It does not matter. It is a metal box, the NEC requires that it be grounded to the incoming ground from the panel.

If you want to just leave the grounds tied together without attaching to the metal junction box that is your choice. Lets hope no one decides to touch the box while standing in a puddle of water on the garage floor.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> It does not matter. It is a metal box, the NEC requires that it be grounded to the incoming ground from the panel.
> 
> If you want to just leave the grounds tied together without attaching to the metal junction box that is your choice.


The ground from the 10-2 NM cable was not going to be cut so no need to tie them together. Like I said I was just going to strip the sheating off of about 5 foot of the NM cable once it enters the j-box and run the 2 conductors plus ground into the greenfield routed to the heater.

But you're saying cut the ground wire and wire nut on a pigtail to go to the j-box?

Will do.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Minus08 said:


> The ground from the 10-2 NM cable was not going to be cut so no need to tie them together. Like I said I was just going to strip the sheating off of about 5 foot of the NM cable once it enters the j-box and run the 2 conductors plus ground into the greenfield routed to the heater.
> 
> But you're saying cut the ground wire and wire nut on a pigtail to go to the j-box?
> 
> Will do.


Five feet of romex? What do you plan on doing, skip rope with it?:whistling2:


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Five feet of romex? What do you plan on doing, skip rope with it?:whistling2:


What are you talking about. 

If I need 4 feet of greenfield to get to the heater and have 1 foot extra of wire to make connections in heater why is that so suprising?? I am going to use the conductors from the romex and just pass-em thru the j-box like in the photo in post #1


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Minus08 said:


> What are you talking about.
> 
> If I need 4 feet of greenfield to get to the heater and have 1 foot extra of wire to make connections in heater why is that so suprising??


Suggest you go back and re-read post #5 that you stated and I quote "Like I said I was just going to strip the sheating off of about 5 foot of the NM cable once it enters the j-box and run the 2 conductors plus ground into the greenfield routed to the heater." :detective:

Suggest at this point you contact an electrician that knows what they are doing. I am done with you at this point, due to I am not going to be responsible if you electrocute someone, or burn your place down. :whistling2:


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Suggest you go back and re-read post #5 that you stated and I quote "Like I said I was just going to strip the sheating off of about 5 foot of the NM cable once it enters the j-box and run the 2 conductors plus ground into the greenfield routed to the heater." :detective:


Should I just run the NM cable straight thru the box and into the greenfield

I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But thanks for your time.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Minus08 said:


> Should I just run the NM cable straight thru the box and into the greenfield
> 
> I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But thanks for your time.


I understand what you are talking about, but I do not think that you know what you are talking about what you are wanting to do. Here is a clue, Greenfield is no longer used. MC or Metal Conduit is what is used now. It contains a Ground, Neutral and Hot. Even if Greenfield was in use, it would have a Neutral & Hot, with the outer jacket having a bonding strip in it still for ground. How did you plan on pulling five feet of wires from a romex, which is illegal to begin with, inside of something that already has wires inside? So again, suggest that you have a licensed electrician do the work, due to you seem to not understand how to properly wire this.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> How did you plan on pulling five feet of wires from a romex,




Are you serious. You use a razor knife, slice 5 feet of the sheathing of the romex and now you have 5 feet of conductors "dangling" that you now put thru a piece of greenfield or flexible metal conduit.

The flexible metal conduit will OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO CONDUCTORS IN IT PRIOR TO INSERTION OF THE DANGLING CONDUCTORS.

I have a roll of 1/2" greenfield with zero conductors in it.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Look a roll of greenfield with no conductors in it.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> pulling five feet of wires from a romex, which is illegal to begin with,



Hey Greg I think I see what you are referring to now looking back at my post #11. 

Once I strip the sheathing off the romex, the individual conductors may not be suitable or designed and UL-listed to be used as "free conductors" in another raceway.

So best to splice inside the j-box with some THHN conductors.

Thanks for the beating


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

A few things:

1) Any metal raceway system MUST be bonded!
2) You do not have to cut your ground wire to do this. Simply loop your bare conductor around a green screw in the metal box, and you're good to go!

3) Some folks would argue that the individual conductors from within a non-metallic sheathed cable are not listed for use within other raceway systems. But romex cable is allowed to be sleeved inside of EMT for physical protection. I personally don't believe that sleeving it inside of greenfield or other conduit will cause anything to "burn down" however. Metal flex is more protection than plastic sheathing any day.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> ...Here is a clue, Greenfield is no longer used....


What planet are you on?? "Greenfield" as it is called is quite commonly used all over and is readily available. Especially in places like Chicago where metal raceway systems are required.

The proper generic name is flexible metal conduit, and is covered by the NEC in article 348.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> What planet are you on?? "Greenfield" as it is called is quite commonly used all over and is readily available. Especially in places like Chicago where metal raceway systems are required.
> 
> The proper generic name is flexible metal conduit, and is covered by the NEC in article 348.


I thought I had the right terminology.

Thanks KBSparky


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> Suggest you go back and re-read post #5 that you stated and I quote "Like I said I was just going to strip the sheating off of about 5 foot of the NM cable once it enters the j-box and run the 2 conductors plus ground into the greenfield routed to the heater." :detective:
> 
> Suggest at this point you contact an electrician that knows what they are doing. I am done with you at this point, due to I am not going to be responsible if you electrocute someone, or burn your place down. :whistling2:


I understood what he was talking about without much trouble. :laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Minus08 said:


> Should I just run the NM cable straight thru the box and into the greenfield
> 
> I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But thanks for your time.


You can run the wires like you said just put a little loop in your ground wire inside your box and wrap it around a ground screw so its bonded,no need to cut/splice the wire


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

YES, you certainly DO need to ground the box. ALL metallic boxes MUST be grounded. Want the code section?

Yes, it is non-complaint to strip off part of the sheathing to do what you propose. 
Yes, it is still done all the time for short sections of a few feet or less. (I never said that)


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> ...Yes, it is still done all the time for short sections of a few feet or less. (I never said that)


Exactly. While a technical violation may exist, it really is not hazardous. The rule that allows for NM cable to be sleeved in conduit requires the sheathing to remain until it enters the final outlet box.


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## Evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> I understand what you are talking about, but I do not think that you know what you are talking about what you are wanting to do. Here is a clue, Greenfield is no longer used. MC or Metal Conduit is what is used now. It contains a Ground, Neutral and Hot. Even if Greenfield was in use, it would have a Neutral & Hot, with the outer jacket having a bonding strip in it still for ground. How did you plan on pulling five feet of wires from a romex, which is illegal to begin with, inside of something that already has wires inside? So again, suggest that you have a licensed electrician do the work, due to you seem to not understand how to properly wire this.


Greenfield is empty flexible metallic conduit... BX has wire in it and is no longer used at least most places. If it's legal to use nm cable (romex) where you are then do it but leave a loop of wire in that j box in case you need to tap it later and loop the ground around a ground screw without cutting it.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Evstarr said:


> Greenfield is empty flexible metallic conduit... BX has wire in it and is no longer used at least most places. If it's legal to use nm cable (romex) where you are then do it but leave a loop of wire in that j box in case you need to tap it later and loop the ground around a ground screw without cutting it.


May want to go back and look that term up. Greenfield is the original term for BX. That is where it came from. Flexcon is what the empty metal corrigated is, without any wiring inside.

Two totally different creatures.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

I have only heard the term Greenfield to mean FMC in over 30 years of the trade.

I believe Flexcon is just one brand of FMC.


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## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

I too only know the term Greenfield to mean FMC, whereas BX cable and AC cable were commonly interchanged (though not necessarily correctly).


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

Kleenex, Xerox, Q-tips, Greenfield. :wink:

Armored cable (AC) was first listed in 1899 for the Sprague Electric Co. of New York, and was originally called “Greenfield Flexible Steel-Armored Conductors,” after one of its inventors, Harry Greenfield. There were originally two experimental versions of this product, one called “AX” and the other “BX,” with the “X” standing for “experimental.” The “BX” version became the one that eventually got produced, and hence the name “BX” stuck, which also became the registered trade name of armored cable for General Electric, who later acquired Sprague Electric. Armored Cable first appeared in the NEC in 1903. (Source Underwriters Laboratories).


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## Julius793 (Dec 13, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> May want to go back and look that term up. Greenfield is the original term for BX. That is where it came from. Flexcon is what the empty metal corrigated is, without any wiring inside.
> 
> Two totally different creatures.


I don't believe that's correct greenfield were the inventors but they never called it bx. Bx got it's name cuz it was invented in da bronx


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> If I need 4 feet of greenfield to get to the heater...


use a threaded coupling...
thread the romex clamp and the greenfield fitting into each end.
No box.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> YES, you certainly DO need to ground the box. ALL metallic boxes MUST be grounded. Want the code section?
> 
> Yes, it is non-complaint to strip off part of the sheathing to do what you propose.
> Yes, it is still done all the time for short sections of a few feet or less. (I never said that)


 
OK...
1.I bring the romex(10-2 wG) into the j-box.... 
2.strip off about 5 feet of sheathing.... 
3.now I have 5 feet of "dangling" wires(2 insulated and 1 bare ground).....
4.I wrap the bare ground around the ground screw on the j-box....
5.now feed the bare ground and the 2 insulated conductors into the flex
metal conduit(greenfield)

Question: isnt there an issue with the bare ground wire running thru the greenfield

THANKS

I attached a mock up photos because sometime I do not explain good. Anyway only difference in what we are planning to do compared to what is pictured is that the Romex is going to be brought into thru a knockout at the back of the j-box instead of like pictured where its coming into bottom of box.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

TarheelTerp said:


> use a threaded coupling...
> thread the romex clamp and the greenfield fitting into each end.
> No box.


After thinking about the code implications, I vote for this solution. Do not bother stripping the sheath off the NM cable. I believe this would qualify as an acceptable means of sleeving the NM cable to protect it from damage. Just use clamps to anchor the FMC well at the end. The FMC will be bonded through its connection to the heater chassis.

Every electrician I've worked with in the Midwest and Southwest has used "Greenfield" to refer to FMC only, never to BX or MC. Greenfield is currently Eastern Wire's trade name for their reduced-wall aluminum flexible conduit products:
http://www.easternwire.com/flex-home.html
Thus, that is the only stuff that comes in a box marked "Greenfield" these days.
http://www.easternwire.com/flex-home.html


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

TarheelTerp said:


> use a threaded coupling...
> thread the romex clamp and the greenfield fitting into each end.
> No box.


 
hmmmm???? I know Julius is gonna get me for bringing this up again....but the romex...from the breaker... is being brought out of a joist cavity which is covered by drywall...I was under impression you can't just poke a hole in drywall and bring the romex out of the hole and leave it exposed like that???

thats why the plan was to put the j-box over the hole in drywall and use a knockout on the rear of the j-box to get the romex into box.

Like in photo above on post #28...imagine the pegboard is drywall and the romex is being brought into the box via a rear knockout


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Im guessing they want you to sleeve the gf over the wire up into the ceiling and strap the gf to the rafter before it drops through the ceiling.
Sounds kind of hacked to me id go with the 4sq box idea myself,but what do I know? :laughing:


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## TarheelTerp (Jan 6, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> hmmmm???? I know Julius is gonna get me for bringing this up again....but the romex...from the breaker... is being brought out of a joist cavity which is covered by drywall


didn't see that part of the problem mentioned.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

TarheelTerp said:


> didn't see that part of the problem mentioned.


No problem....heres a mock up with the romex being brought into the j-box via a rear knockout as the j-box is surface mounted on drywall.

Still can someone address any concerns about running the bare ground wire through the greenfield???

Also Tarheel: do "they" make a threaded coupling to transition right from romex to greenfield?


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

I personally see no problem running the bare ground wire in the gf,its same as pulling ground wire through conduit in my book anyway.
Just bond it with a ground screw in the junction box and the heater 
I would get a couple more screws to hold that junction box though


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## Code05 (May 24, 2009)

Bare grounding wire in FMC is legal.


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## jlmran (Feb 8, 2010)

Code05 said:


> Bare grounding wire in FMC is legal.


Edit deleted


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

plummen said:


> I would get a couple more screws to hold that junction box though


Thats not the final set up...I have lots of drywall scraps so I just shot a piece into my workbench, popped a hole in it and attached the j-box(with 1 screw) just to show what I want to do. 

Figured a picture is worth a thousand words.

didnt think someone would think the photo was my final answer:laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I can't really add much to the options but being a little overboard on appearance I would use a 'lay in' grounding lug instead of the wrap around method.
I'm not actually sure that a connection to the box is necessary if the fmc is less than 6 feet in length it would bond the box back to the heater terminal box where the bare equipment ground of the nm would terminate.

I think it would give me more piece of mind to catch the box though.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Stubbie said:


> I would use a 'lay in' grounding lug instead of the wrap around method.


are you referring to the greenfield to j-box connector???


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Stubbie was talking about using a lug instead of the green grounding screw.

IMO the ground screw is fine as shown. I would leave more conductor in the box.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I agree with Jim that the wrap around the green screw is just fine. I was merely giving you a different means of doing the same thing. I was talking about one of these ...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

For the difference in cost and ease of finding the ground screw it is probably easier to use the screw. Those lugs are nice in a trough tho or to bond multiple panels.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> I would leave more conductor in the box.


Yeah on the real set up we're probably going to use a 2-1/8 deep box and leave a "loop" of wire inside j-box just in case he wants to add a switch at a later date.

And thanks Stubbie for the photo of the ground lug you were referring to.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I do not agree regarding grounding the wires or cable that only passes through the box requiring the grounding jumper. It is only required to use the ground pig tail when a device is located at the box or it is the very last box in the run. See articles 408.40 and 250.148. As long as the cable or wire is intact as it passes through, there is no code requiring you to cut, strip and make this connection. The only time this is required is if the box contains a device, the cable or wire is not intact and it is the last box in the run with a receptacle or other device. We do not interupt wire runs in pull boxes. If connections are made in the box, then the ground jumper *may* be required.

As for the NM (Romex) entering the back of the box. As long as you use a connector, the NM cable can pass through the drywall. This is also true for block walls, brick walls or any other type of wall. As long as the NM cable is not subject to physical damage you can install it most anywhere that is dry. See article 334.

I am also in agreement that the term "Greenfield" is just a brand name, and it's true definition is FMC. (flexible metallic conduit) I still call it Greenfield and if you ask for Greenfield at the supply house you get FMC. See article 348.


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## zappa (Nov 25, 2011)

J. V. said:


> I am also in agreement that the term "Greenfield" is just a brand name, and it's true definition is FMC. (flexible metallic conduit) I still call it Greenfield and if you ask for Greenfield at the supply house you get FMC. See article 348.


I agree with the box bonding also, plus it may get grounded from the heater.

Didja see post #25? The name certainly has been passed around throughout the years but I found the history interesting.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

zappa said:


> I agree with the box bonding also, plus it may get grounded from the heater.


Right. You could have an metal conduit run with 100 empty boxes and not one grounding jumper would be required if this run terminated and was grounded in the heater. 
Add a receptacle/switch/any device to one of the boxes. Bingo, jumper required. :thumbsup:


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## jlmran (Feb 8, 2010)

TarheelTerp said:


> use a threaded coupling...
> thread the romex clamp and the greenfield fitting into each end.
> No box.


This is the best post of the entire thread. No pontificating, only solutions.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

OK...we did the install before the New England/Balt game and had a couple beers AFTERWARDS.

-new breaker installed
-drywall cut in joist cavity next to panel
-joist drilled to run 10-2 romex from breaker to the hole in drywall
-hole drilled in 3/4" piece birch plywood then installed over hole in drywall
-rear knockout punchout out in j-box
-cable clamp intalled
-romex pulled into j-box, secured with clamp, 
-j-box secured to plywood
-greenfield connectors install on j-box and heater
-romex from j-box looped once in j-box and sleaved thru greenfield
-connections made at heater
-breaker on
-heat on
-beer open
-Baltimore Ravens lose....good day.


Thanks for all advice here and yes I know we still need the 4" square cover. Also we left the sheathing on the romex in the j-box.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Minus08 said:


> OK...we did the install before the New England/Balt game and had a couple beers AFTERWARDS.
> 
> -new breaker installed
> -drywall cut in joist cavity next to panel
> ...


I also enjoyed the game, and am still working on the beer. The only thing I would have done different is the plywood backboard and the box would have been up higher, out of the way. The backboard was unnecessary. I would have mounted the box to a stud for appearance sake. But it looks safe and compliant. :thumbsup:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

You need a strap on the flex.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

jbfan said:


> You need a strap on the flex.


where on the flex....we wanted to leave some play for heater to swivel a little bit

And JV you're prob right. Could of / should of been up higher but forget the ladders.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Minus08 said:


> OK...we did the install before the New England/Balt game and had a couple beers AFTERWARDS.
> 
> -new breaker installed
> -drywall cut in joist cavity next to panel
> ...


Can you clock that box about 90 degrees to the left to put that knock out on the side instead of bottem?
Leaving the sheething on that wire inside the gf makes it kind of rough looking with those kinks in it,if you strip the sheething off the romex then shorten up the gf going to the heater I promise I wont tell anybody. :laughing:


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I would rotate the box so the flex feeds from the top.
Put a strap in the middle, and you still have room to swivel.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

plummen said:


> Can you clock that box about 90 degrees to the left to put that knock out on the side instead of bottem?


Good point on rotating the box. Will do.

And you're right about the leaving the sheathing on romex inside the GF. Does make the GF look kind of rough.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

jbfan said:


> I would rotate the box so the flex feeds from the top.


JB:
that was the idea when we first planned it but then after hanging the heater and seeing how far down the heater hung, feeding the GF from top of box would of required kind of making an "S" to route GF into heater. With leaving the sheathing on romex inside GF, I think the GF would of really looked rough then. But initially the top feed out of the box was the idea.


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