# Fastening sleepers to concrete



## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

No shims. If 2 x 4 is not wide enuf than use 2 x 6 and scribe em. PT is a must, Being only 1 1/2 wide it will make life interesting but I would try to use wedge anchors. countersink the tops for nut and washer,run a 1/2 hole thru.
Shims will move,shrink etc not good.


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

I was planning on laying the sleepers flat and shimming them with 4x4 PT cut to proper width and placing under fastening points I suppose I could put my sleepers on edge and start them off as 1.5" and have them end up 2.5" at the other side. Is there a trick to scribing these on the tablesaw? or just mark a line and follow it?


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

hmmmmmmmmmm OK IMHO I am not a fan of 2x on the flat. There will be alot of flex in that 1 1/2 " I also trust you are going WITH the water flow not across it. You can go it your way but man a full inch of shims? Me personally I would not do it. SCribing the answer is YES just rip to your line with circ saw. NOW IF they are all happily going to be the same dimension ( yeah like that will happen :}:} } but if so then get a width or rip to it so when you do rip you get 2 pcs from one cut.:wink:


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

well I'll probably go the scribe route, starting not to seem that difficult (famous last words). What is the recommended spacing between the concrete anchors I was thinking about every 2 feet? Also what is the recommend spacing for IPE boards, was thinking about the thickness of a 16 penny nail


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

I think 2' would be fine. I would also use some good PL500 or whatever they now use for pressure treated. just remember as you get to the thinner sections you should reduce the length of the fastner and hole depth. If you can vacuum the dust out of the holes before you put your fastners in to them.


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

Skymaster thanks for all the input, are you suggesting the adhesive for glueing the wood to the concrete?


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Yes. Will help hold, take up the bounce, insulate the wood from concrete ect. All around helps ya out alot.
You realize that you have had em thinkin bout this fer a day or two eh ROFLMAO :laughing::laughing::yes:

Am thunkin I would snap lines, pre drill all the sleepers, place em, drill all the holes at farthest point, than put one fastner in each at the thickest end, place em on the lines, just snug it down,than drill every hole using sleepers as template,witness mark em, loosen the anchor pull em up, vacuum all the holes, then put the adhesive on em, place em back down and tighten them up


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

skymaster said:


> I think 2' would be fine. I would also use some good PL500 or whatever they now use for pressure treated. just remember as you get to the thinner sections you should reduce the length of the fastner and hole depth. If you can vacuum the dust out of the holes before you put your fastners in to them.


2' spacing is PLENTY, even if you are using 1" diameter wedge anchors!!

If you are going to reduce hole depth, keep in mind that wedge anchors all have a minimum embedment depth. The min.embed for a 1/2" wedge anchor is about 2-1/2" ( depends on brand, make sure you pay attention to this). the other thing to keep in mind with wedge anchors is edge distance. You never want your anchor to be less than 5 anchor diameters from the pad edge. 12 diameters or more is recommended

If you can't vacuum out the hole, you can use a compressor, or even your mouth and a straw) to blow out the hole. it's not critical, but will help you get the most out of your anchors


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

I am curious about another way of fastning the sleepers. what about laying a 2X4 flat and fastening the sleepers to them. I can glue both boards down and shoot concrete nails into the ones running flat


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Can do. The issue is that pins are great for preventing side to side, in a house the weight of the building prevents lifting, with a deck I would be concerned about lifting because of a live load, IE people walkin, furniture moving etc. Now If you use wedge anchors to hold em down and the screw etc sleepers to them that should be fine.


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

Decided not to go with Red heads for setting sleeprs, I was terrible y succesful setting them, I had to hammer them hard in and either they didn't set or the threads got screwed up (i had the nut on when hammering them in). I have a lot to set for my sleepers so don't want to mess around with ones that don't set, im going to go with screwing the Sleaper into a 2X4 set flat. I'll securing it with shooting concrete nails into the sleeper and glueing the sleepers and 2x4 as well. Also before securing sleeper since I plan on installing cut side down I was going to coat it with copper green to allow for great rot resistance.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

rocketdoctor said:


> Decided not to go with Red heads for setting sleeprs, I was terrible y succesful setting them, I had to hammer them hard in and either they didn't set or the threads got screwed up (i had the nut on when hammering them in).


if you are having problems with wedge anchors, you might want to consider sleeve anchors ( Red Head's trade name for sleeve anchor is Dyna-Bolt). They are more versitle and easier to use but don't hold has much as a wedge. They will hold a lot more than a powder actuated nail for sure


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Rocket: the problems you are having sound like you either the drill size is too small, depth too shallow, or drill dust left in hole and/or comination of all. This IS NOT meant personsal :}:}:} Usually the drill size is the thread size IE: 1/2" anchor means 1/2" hole. Am really surprised at the problems  Curiosity what type drill are you using? I have a Bosch SDS roatry hammer and I gotta tell ya there is NO comparision to a hammer drill. I have both types and the reason I own the SDS is because of the problems I get with a hammer drill using larger drill sizes. Since you have a fair amount of holes you might consider one. I bought a refurb from CPO tools, only needed a 1" and it is fantastic you will never go back to a hammer drill. Was reasonable under 200 bucks and reduces workload on your body by about 90%


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

I am a software engineer and even though I have done lots of DIY projects, nothing has ever been simple or level so nothing personal taken. You are correct about the SDS, my nieghbor let me his and it does rock, I am using the 3/8" bit for 3/8' redheads. I wire brush and blow the air out (I even have a tip on blower to get it all the way down in the hole). The redheads don't go in easy I have to tap them quite a bit to set them to their dept and then they don't seem to set. Hitting them harder causes the threads to get messed up. I know I must be doing something wrong here. I think I'll try the sleeved ones if I can find them, I think the holding power will be sufficient. I was thinking epoxy as well but I think that would be pricey and time consuming for the 50 that I have to install.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

For your Ipe question, I believe the spacing between boards is 1/4" for the 5/4X6.

But to be sure, the place you purchase your Ipe from should have access to an information sheet. At the very least, they should be able to direct you to a suppliers website. From my experience you will get a different answer from everyone you talk to. So much information out there.

Good luck with your project and please post pictures.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

rocketdoctor said:


> I am a software engineer and even though I have done lots of DIY projects, nothing has ever been simple or level so nothing personal taken. You are correct about the SDS, my nieghbor let me his and it does rock, I am using the 3/8" bit for 3/8' redheads. I wire brush and blow the air out (I even have a tip on blower to get it all the way down in the hole). The redheads don't go in easy I have to tap them quite a bit to set them to their dept and then they don't seem to set. Hitting them harder causes the threads to get messed up. I know I must be doing something wrong here. I think I'll try the sleeved ones if I can find them, I think the holding power will be sufficient. I was thinking epoxy as well but I think that would be pricey and time consuming for the 50 that I have to install.


 
the 3/8 sds bit you are using doesn't happen to be blue on the tool end, or have a *WB* stamped on it does it?


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Rocket: epoxy is a total waste of time and money, if you set a wedge anchor properly HELL will freeze over before it lets loose :}:}:}:}
A suggestion; head out to blowes or homedumpo, buy a Bosch bit the size stated on the BOX of anchors, drill a good 1/2" or more DEEPER, clean out lika ya doin, as far as whacking em in get a DEADBLOW hammer, double nut right at the top, you should NOT have any problems what so ever.
I really suspect the drill bit u have is no good
Jack


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

skymaster said:


> Rocket: epoxy is a total waste of time and money, if you set a wedge anchor properly HELL will freeze over before it lets loose :}:}:}:}


epoxy is probably overkill for this application, but there are many applications were it is the ONLY option. Wedge anchors fail all the time, and proper installation is secondary to proper specification.

i also suspect a bad bit, but it could be voids in your concrete or even faulty anchors as well


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

skymaster said:


> Rocket: epoxy is a total waste of time and money, if you set a wedge anchor properly HELL will freeze over before it lets loose :}:}:}:}
> A suggestion; head out to blowes or homedumpo, buy a Bosch bit the size stated on the BOX of anchors, drill a good 1/2" or more DEEPER, clean out lika ya doin, as far as whacking em in get a DEADBLOW hammer, double nut right at the top, you should NOT have any problems what so ever.
> I really suspect the drill bit u have is no good
> Jack


pretty much did this except doublenut and deadblow. I'll give them one more try with that method


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Rocket: I re read youR info and I figured out what the problem is: YOU IZ ON DA LEFT COAST!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFLMAO:laughing::laughing::yes:
Reall tho it is baffeling. Are you pre drilling the holes in the sleepers oversized? 
Here is my method: layout da holes in the sleeper, predrill them a good 1/8 to 1/4 oversize, lay sleeper in position and use it as a template to just start each hole, remove it, drill the concrete, clean out, put sleeper back down, tap anchors into holes,tighten. When I put anchors in I only leave enuf threads to get full nut and washer on with 1/4" or so of thread exposed after I tighten them. They WILL pull up a bit when you tighten so that is Y I start with a lesser amount of stud above the sleeper. Wish we were closer cause I would find out and fix this problem for ya.
Jack


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

skymaster said:


> I figured out what the problem is: YOU IZ ON DA LEFT COAST!!!!!!!!!!!!


'

Skymaster , very funny, 

Not having any problems getting the sleepers set, just getting anchors to set on some other places I was practicing. Im going to practice a couple more times , also try a different different drill bit see if the anchor will set easier.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

Take a look at both ends of your bit. on the shank end, make sure it's not painted blue, or has a *WB* stamped on it. if it does, this bit is made for a specific product and is slightly undersized, even though it might say 3/8" (or whatever size you need) , go buy a new bit

on the tip, the carbide should be slightly wider than the shank on both sides, if they are not, the bit you are using is simply worn out, and a fresh bit might be all you need


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## Bronx (Apr 11, 2008)

*Dyna bolts are only for brick and block*

The red heads are a name brand of wedge anchor. The problem with red heads is in most cases the installer and not the fastener. There is a 
instalation video on you-tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyD8JOAsN2I The wedge anchor is designed for solid concrete and should work fine in your application http://www.wedge-type-anchor.com/


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

Bronx said:


> *Dyna bolts are only for brick and block*


 
That would be entirely incorrect. Sleeve anchors (which is what a DynaBolt is) work GREAT in concrete, and are recommended for concrete by every manufacturer of them that I can think of

i agree that operator error is the main factor for wedge failure, which is another reason to use sleeve anchors if your design specs will allow it. they install MUCH easier

Because of their design, they tend to offer lower tension and shear loads than a similiarly sized wedge anchor, ( EX: a 3/8 sleeve anchor utilizes a 5/16" bolt, while a 3/8" wedge is a true 3/8") which is why in solid concrete, wedge anchors are the perferred choice.

http://www.itw-redhead.com/dynabolt_prod01.asp



Bronx said:


> The red heads are a name brand of wedge anchor


Not exactly..... ITW's brand name for their wedge anchor is a TruBolt. Red Head is actually the name of an entire anchoring line that used to be known as Ramset and Ramset/Redhead. Now ITW uses the Ramset brandname for their fastening lines (gas and powder actuated) and Red Head for their anchoring product line (chemical adhesives, sleeve anchors, blue screws, wedge anchors etc...)

The original Ramset Red Head was actually what is now their Stud anchor http://www.itw-redhead.com/stud01.asp
It's similiar but it came with a little red wedge that you stuck in the bottom of the stud. when you drove this against the bottom of the hole, it caused the anchor to expand. These are not very popular any more because your hole depth is important, whereas a wedge or Sleeve anchor can be set in a bottomless hole


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## Bronx (Apr 11, 2008)

*Wedge anchor*

Mr. Chips, the wedge anchor is designed for solid concrete and the sleeve anchor is designed for brick and block. The sleeve anchor can be used in concete and will get the job done but with lower holding values. I dont use the red head brand because they are made in china. In most cases it comes down to personal preference. I have seen the sleeve anchor used in many base materials and have only seen it fail when the base material has failed.


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

Bronx said:


> Mr. Chips, the wedge anchor is designed for solid concrete and the sleeve anchor is designed for brick and block. The sleeve anchor can be used in concete and will get the job done but with lower holding values. I dont use the red head brand because they are made in china. In most cases it comes down to personal preference. I have seen the sleeve anchor used in many base materials and have only seen it fail when the base material has failed.


I'm not trying to scold you, but I felt that you were giving bad information, and felt that it needed to be corrected, especially since the OP was looking for a solution to a problem were this product could be the answer.

In his posts on this thread he repeatedly said that for some reason he was having no luck using wedge anchors. I don't think it is the anchors, but i have seen first hand instances where bad anchors did get into the market, and I think you may have too, since you are reluctant to use anchors from China. 

I suggested sleeve anchors, since they are much easier to use, and as you admit in your last post "will get the job done", which is EXACTLY what the OP is trying to do. Had your last post been your only post, I might have still responded to find out whose anchors you do use ( Wejit is the only US manufacturer i can think of), but that's about it.

I was concerned that you gave the OP misinformation when you said that sleeve anchors are only for brick and block, since this is totally false, and actually I feel that sleeve anchors might be the perfect product for this user, in this application. I have no idea how you know that sleeve anchors were "designed for brick and block" and I would love to know what your source is for this statement. My guess is that sleeve anchors were designed to be a medium-heavy duty anchor that work in many substrates, making them much more versitle than many products on the market at the time.



Bronx said:


> I have seen the sleeve anchor used in many base materials and have only seen it fail when the base material has failed.


One of the biggest failures of sleeve anchors used in solid concrete I have ever seen occurs during installation. Installers will often overtorque them, causing the plowbolt to snap or pull through the sleeve.


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## Bronx (Apr 11, 2008)

No hard feelings. The sleeve anchors are made in the USA also by Marksman Mfg. in NYC


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

well I got all my sleepers cut last weekend and have been dreading the task of installing them this weekend with 40 redheads. Another contractor recommeded TapCon concrete screws instead, I think I am going to go this route it will save me a lot of time and I also won't have to worry as much of the placement of the 1/4 screws as I was with the wedge anchors since this would have required a 3/4 countersink. The concrete pass is not a standalone deck there are joists on both sides of it so when the boards are down everything shoud hold together just fine.

P.S. I think I finally figured how to install the red heads correctly


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## Mr Chips (Mar 23, 2008)

make sure the screws will give you the load values you need

there is a *HUGE* difference in both tension and shear values between wedge anchors and blue screws....like using classroom paste instead of construction adhesive


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

not sure how to calculate the load here, Its for a deck so the majority of the load will be downward. Im not cantelevilering anything off these joists. Im pretty sure these screws will do the job. I'll use some adhesive too, I was planning on use PL is that good enough for this or any other recommendation for glueing wood to concrete


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## rocketdoctor (Mar 18, 2009)

*making progress*

I finally got around to installing my sleepers last weekend (this deck project is a lot harder and time consuming than I anticipated). I decided to wedge anchor a 2X4 laid flat and then screw the sleeper to it. After cutting sleepers the majority of them bowed quite a bit and i decided that using the 2X4 flat would solve alot of problems including not interfereing with deck screw placement. 

I finally got the anchors to work, double nutting and deadblow definately help prevent me from overdriving and stripping threads. Still there was a couple wedges that didn't set properly so I put a couple tapcons by those. I also had a hilti concrete nail gun and gave that a try it sank one fine but the rest I couldn't get it to sit, those nails are a ***** to cut I ruined a sawsall blade trying to remove them.

The anchor wedges are time consuming but I think the right way to go, the big drawback is I just read that i shouldn't have used the Zinc ones with the pressure treated wood, so i ordered the galvanized ones online since no hardware store seemed to carry them, hopefully i'll get them by next weekend. I'll install a couple of these in the sleepers I did put in.


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