# New Construction - under roof and water in basement



## Marlee (Nov 25, 2007)

Yep, we had in our new house which we moved into in 1994. The big thing is the sump pump. Sounds like you are near a high water table or to your point just need better drainage from the roof. However, even with this, the house is likely built to be very dependent on the sump pump as water in the tiles and ultimately to the sump is expected. If you are going to finish the basement or stoer things there make sure to get a back-up pump. What I have found is that if your power supply to the house is relaible e.g. underground then your most likely failure mode will be pump failure. What I did was install two seperate pumps on two different circuits. One pump is set to trigger lower (the original "OEM" pump) and the second is a pedistal pump set to trip if the first pump fails. I also have a battery pump installed, but unless you spend big bucks they won't keep up with a torrent.

Hope this helps.... bottom line I wouldn't worry.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

*Thanks..*

Thank you for the quick reply. We are going to have a second sump pump put in once we are in house. I will definately look at the one we were thinking about, it was battery back up. The house is about 600' from the public lake, so I'm sure it's a high water table. The things you learn while building, I don't think any book could teach you!
Cyndi
:wink:


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Myself, I would be very worried. A basement never holds water out any better than when the waterproofing is brand new.

You need to determine how and where the water is intruding. Ask the builder to explain specifically where the water came in and how that will be prevented from happening again. When you say the footings have plenty of drainage do you mean gravity drainage to the yard somewhere (good) or drainage into your basement sump? If the drainage is to your basement sump then good luck - you will always be fighting water.

Why is your basement floor out of level by 3 inches????


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> Hi all,
> I need an opinion here - our house is down to the last stages. Drywall is done and we are now just waiting on the painters so the finish carpenters can do their thing. Our home is two story with a full basement that is approx 1400 sqft with a total of 2900 sqft. We've had extreme heavy rains here in NE Ohio and when we went over to check the house Saturday there was about 4" of water in the center and spread out to about 1" deep on the sides. We immediately went out and purchased downspout extenders (they haven't done the underground trenching yet) and plugged the sump pump in. That's not hooked up all the way either so we went back out to purchase 50' of drainage pipe to get it away from the house. We also purchased a dehumidfier. Now after all that, here is my question. The builder is acting like this is no big deal and that's it's normal part of building. This being our first home that we've built, how do I know. We did poured walls instead of block and there is plenty of drainage at the footers. We also did Owens Corning water proofing system. The only way this water got in is from the walls, right? Has anyone had this happen to them? We're rather clueless and everyone we asked seems in total shock. Builder seems like it's all okay...
> Help in NE Ohio,
> Cyndi


yes, this is common during the building process. your house probably flooded a few more times before this time that you discovered it, but you just didn't know about it. It will flood as long as there is no electrical power to run the sump pump. Water will come through the windows, from the gutters, and from under the slap (french drain and water up the sump pit). Also, any appliances like hot water heater or HVAC air handler/furnance could get rusted out.

The key for you is during the final walkthrough is to note everything. Then you will have a place where this issue is accounted for.

When I had my home built, I had the same issue, but I put it on my punch list. Once the house was settled, I noticed mold in the basement and a musky smell. The builder never fixed settling around the perimeter of the house either, so a little water would pool every time it rained.

From there, I forced the builder to have a mold remediation come in and scrub the basement and the ducts. They sealed it off and bombed it. Replaced all the insulation. It must have cost the builder 25-30K. Better them pay than me.


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## ncgrogan (Dec 3, 2006)

What do you have for below grade waterproofing? I would personally be pissed at someone. Why would you want a basement in a high water table if thats really the issue? Didn't someone survey the property and note the water table?


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

ncgrogan said:


> What do you have for below grade waterproofing? I would personally be pissed at someone. Why would you want a basement in a high water table if thats really the issue? Didn't someone survey the property and note the water table?


Not only do you not want a basement with a high water table, you can't even put a pool on your property. During the winter, assuming it's a northern state, the entire pool can heave.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

jogr said:


> Myself, I would be very worried. A basement never holds water out any better than when the waterproofing is brand new.
> 
> You need to determine how and where the water is intruding. Ask the builder to explain specifically where the water came in and how that will be prevented from happening again. When you say the footings have plenty of drainage do you mean gravity drainage to the yard somewhere (good) or drainage into your basement sump? If the drainage is to your basement sump then good luck - you will always be fighting water.
> 
> Why is your basement floor out of level by 3 inches????


We were told water was coming in from crock (sp?) and from the sump.
I also asked about the floor and I was told that it was pitched to the main drain in the middle of the floor. We are dealing with a known builder and the home does come with a 10 year warranty. Have a feeling we just might need it.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> yes, this is common during the building process. your house probably flooded a few more times before this time that you discovered it, but you just didn't know about it. It will flood as long as there is no electrical power to run the sump pump. Water will come through the windows, from the gutters, and from under the slap (french drain and water up the sump pit). Also, any appliances like hot water heater or HVAC air handler/furnance could get rusted out.
> 
> The key for you is during the final walkthrough is to note everything. Then you will have a place where this issue is accounted for.
> 
> ...


Excellent idea about having it put in the final walk through and I have plenty of pictures of it under water. I've kept a complete log of all steps of the building, down to any questions we had and builder had fixed, just in case there was a problem later. A picture is a hard thing to argue with. The mold was my main concern, I'm highly allergic to it. Today I checked it with my husband on our way home and it's dried up a lot. The dehumidfier is doing its job, but rather disgusted with the entire thing.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

ncgrogan said:


> What do you have for below grade waterproofing? I would personally be pissed at someone. Why would you want a basement in a high water table if thats really the issue? Didn't someone survey the property and note the water table?


We have the Tuff N Dri 30 year system with the exterior insulation. The soil was tested and we were told it was okay. We even put an extra 4K in a "safety net" just incase once they started digging and found further problems the money was there to fix the extra drainage issues.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> Not only do you not want a basement with a high water table, you can't even put a pool on your property. During the winter, assuming it's a northern state, the entire pool can heave.


Our neighbor has an inground pool, so I'm praying that there hasn't been a mistake with water table. I really think that here in NE Ohio we've had LOTS of rain and the down spouts were just dumping at the corners of the house. Combine that with the grade not done and no power it just backed up. Soil is clay clay clay - they did go out several feet from the foundation with drainage gravel. Water never touched the furnace, but still took pictures of it all and how close it was. Furnace is not running yet, thank the lord.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

When you build a basement in clay soil, relying on a waterproofing film on the exterior is definitely not enough. That is a concept invented by the people that sell the "black goop" and DryLok. Water can come up from below.

Your situation is like building a house in a swimming pool and the drainage system at or below the footings is absolutely necessary. When the home is built the excavation limits can be 5 to 15 feet beyong the foundation walls - That is the size of your "pool" and you have to make sure your downspout extensions go beyond this to keep from filling the pool up.

One other thing to recognize is that in order to dig a foundation out, there is usually an access ramp that will collect water and funnel it down to the footings. Add into that, you have the treches for water, sewer, electrical, etc. that can add more water.

Invest in good sump pumps with a back-up. - That will be the best investment you can make.

One good thing is that when you have got the whole thing stabilized, you may not have a great deal of moisture around the foundation. The good thing about clay is that it does not relate to a high water table and does not permit the flow of water through it, so you only have to worry about the trenches, surface drainage and the remote possibility of a seam of gravel that will carry water toward the foundation.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> We were told water was coming in from crock (sp?) and from the sump.
> I also asked about the floor and I was told that it was pitched to the main drain in the middle of the floor. We are dealing with a known builder and the home does come with a 10 year warranty. Have a feeling we just might need it.



10 year warranty generally only covers the structure and plumbing though, not other issues in the house.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> Excellent idea about having it put in the final walk through and I have plenty of pictures of it under water. I've kept a complete log of all steps of the building, down to any questions we had and builder had fixed, just in case there was a problem later. A picture is a hard thing to argue with. The mold was my main concern, I'm highly allergic to it. Today I checked it with my husband on our way home and it's dried up a lot. The dehumidfier is doing its job, but rather disgusted with the entire thing.


A small home dehumidifier is great, but what you need is circulation in the basement also. When mold remediation companies hit a house, they use huge dehumidifiers and fans to circulate air. What you also need to check is the HVAC system/air handler and the hot water heater for rust, and the ducting for mold.

If you want to spend the money, you may need to hire an environmental company to do a mold inspection and an air sample as part of your final home inspection.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> Our neighbor has an inground pool, so I'm praying that there hasn't been a mistake with water table. I really think that here in NE Ohio we've had LOTS of rain and the down spouts were just dumping at the corners of the house. Combine that with the grade not done and no power it just backed up. Soil is clay clay clay - they did go out several feet from the foundation with drainage gravel. Water never touched the furnace, but still took pictures of it all and how close it was. Furnace is not running yet, thank the lord.


Having the furnace run is actually a good thing, because the furnace quickly dries the air by removing moisture. You're a bit lucky now because if this were summer time, with the heat, mold would be a bigger issue.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> A small home dehumidifier is great, but what you need is circulation in the basement also. When mold remediation companies hit a house, they use huge dehumidifiers and fans to circulate air. What you also need to check is the HVAC system/air handler and the hot water heater for rust, and the ducting for mold.
> 
> If you want to spend the money, you may need to hire an environmental company to do a mold inspection and an air sample as part of your final home inspection.


We put the 50 pint dehumidifier with a kerosene forced air heater that heats upto 2700 sqft. That combined with several portable fans the basement is almost dry. BUT I'm going to ask the builder today about having it inspected for mold issues before we sign, if they wont we will. I definately have to read the 10 year warranty book to see if mold is an exclusion. 

Thank you for all the advice!
Cyndi Lou
:thumbup:


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

I'd consider installing a 5' deep french drain 10' within the boundary of your entire perimeter. Pipe your leaders and gutters and sump pump discharge to the french drain. 

Keep in mind though, when a home is built a giant hole is dug, and after the foundation is complete the area goes through various stages of backfilling, settling, backfilling, etc. But all that disturbed clay soil around your foundation is probably serving as the "best" place for water to drain, right now.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> We put the 50 pint dehumidifier with a kerosene forced air heater that heats upto 2700 sqft. That combined with several portable fans the basement is almost dry. BUT I'm going to ask the builder today about having it inspected for mold issues before we sign, if they wont we will. I definately have to read the 10 year warranty book to see if mold is an exclusion.
> 
> Thank you for all the advice!
> Cyndi Lou
> :thumbup:


I'm surprised the builder would let you use that kerosene heater in the house. In case of fire, it would be their loss if you put that heater in the house. They could sue you if there's a fire and the house burns. Then, you'd be out of your money to get the house replaced, and then you won't have a house either.

I would not ask the builder to have the house inspected for mold. Instead, I would ask the builder to reimburse you for having a mold inspection done before settlement. If the builder pays outright, the mold inspector reports to the builder and the builder gets the results. If you pay, then the mold inspector is accountable to you.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

handy man88 said:


> I'm surprised the builder would let you use that kerosene heater in the house. In case of fire, it would be their loss if you put that heater in the house. They could sue you if there's a fire and the house burns. Then, you'd be out of your money to get the house replaced, and then you won't have a house either.
> 
> I would not ask the builder to have the house inspected for mold. Instead, I would ask the builder to reimburse you for having a mold inspection done before settlement. If the builder pays outright, the mold inspector reports to the builder and the builder gets the results. If you pay, then the mold inspector is accountable to you.


House is full insured for any issues thru our insurance. That was done day one before they broke ground. If it would burn to the ground we are covered completely. That much I can be positive of, I'm a nut about proper insurance coverage and we have a builders risk insurance. The kerosene heater is the same unit their own workers were using, except we purchase one new this past weekend. 

Another good idea on the mold issue - the things I'm learning about building a home is just amazing. There are tons of things you are prepared for then the things you never though you would have to deal with or educate yourself about happen. No book can prepare you enough.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Stop using that kerosene heater. It puts out boatloads of humidity! When you burn kerosene the primary output is water and carbon dioxide. The heater is working against the dehumidifier!

Use electric for heat.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

jogr said:


> Stop using that kerosene heater. It puts out boatloads of humidity! When you burn kerosene the primary output is water and carbon dioxide. The heater is working against the dehumidifier!
> 
> Use electric for heat.


Well that is a problem since the power isn't hooked up to the furnace yet and the gas line doesn't go in until Monday. I can't imagine heating a house this size by electric heaters.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> Well that is a problem since the power isn't hooked up to the furnace yet and the gas line doesn't go in until Monday. I can't imagine heating a house this size by electric heaters.



How about propane? That's what most builders use when the house is dry walled or painted during the winter. I've seen 100 gallon tanks at costco.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Propane is just as bad as kerosene if not worse because you do not notice it. Any unvented heater will just warm the air and pump out moisture than can condense on cold surfaces.

I was called in on a $900,000 law suit where the concrete moisture, drywall compound and heated pumped enough water in to the house for a major mold problem (removed drywall, killed mold, removed drywall again and then sued).

I don't know if your situation is as bad as you say, but you can always use a generator to run your furnace and get more and better heat AND drying.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> Propane is just as bad as kerosene if not worse because you do not notice it. Any unvented heater will just warm the air and pump out moisture than can condense on cold surfaces.
> 
> I was called in on a $900,000 law suit where the concrete moisture, drywall compound and heated pumped enough water in to the house for a major mold problem (removed drywall, killed mold, removed drywall again and then sued).
> 
> I don't know if your situation is as bad as you say, but you can always use a generator to run your furnace and get more and better heat AND drying.


Can't leave a generator unmonitored or overnight. It'll either get stolen or pulverized by annoyed neighbors.


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## ponch37300 (Nov 27, 2007)

Around here(WI) i've actually seen drywallers leave a propane heater run over night to help the mud dry. If propane heaters put out humidity wouldn't this make the mud drying time longer? Not starting an arguement cause i don't know, just currious! Thanks


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Guys, there's already plenty of electric power at the house. A little heat from electric heaters in the basement would help the dehumidifier rather than hinder it. 

Cyndi, You don't need to heat the whole house to 80. Just put a couple 1500 watt 110 volt electric heaters in the basement to get the chill off and help the dehumidifier. A couple good fans will help too. You've already pumped the water out right? 
Once the gas is hooked up Monday you'll have plenty of dry heat. Just be careful to keep good air filters in your furnace during construction.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

ponch -

You are right about drying drywall compound. What happens is that the propane heater heats the air, which allows it to dry out the drywall compound AS LONG AS the humidity does not get too high. I am sure you notice the high humidity when this happens.

If you have a lot of extra humidity from water and concrete (usually in the lower levels), the humidity from the heater can reduce the rate of drying and the only parts of the house that do dry are the warmer, upper areas and not the lower cooler areas.


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## LawnGuyLandSparky (Nov 18, 2007)

Cyndi, how did you insure a house w/o a C of O? What kind of insurance is it? Is the builder insured? (Construction insurance) Did you hire this builder to build you a house on your land, or is this a new subdivision or offering from a builder on speculation?


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> Propane is just as bad as kerosene if not worse because you do not notice it. Any unvented heater will just warm the air and pump out moisture than can condense on cold surfaces.
> 
> I don't know if your situation is as bad as you say, but you can always use a generator to run your furnace and get more and better heat AND drying.


We have opened a window in each room on the second floor about an inch - we have the kerosene heater, which is forced air one, set at a low setting, the house is a bout 50 degrees inside right now. We pumped the water out of the basement, put fans in the basement along as one on the steps going up to help circulate the air. I was there this morning for the appliances to be delivered and there is no longer any moisture on the window seals. Basement is dry other than it looks to be damp on the bottom of the walls, but the floor is dry. I'm assuming it's going to take a while for that to dry out, maybe until the furnace is hooked up. My husband who was a commercial carpenter for 12 years was concerned about the moisture it was going to cause in the house from the get go. He was the one that said to make sure to keep the windows open so the moisture has a way to get out.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

ponch37300 said:


> Around here(WI) i've actually seen drywallers leave a propane heater run over night to help the mud dry. If propane heaters put out humidity wouldn't this make the mud drying time longer? Not starting an arguement cause i don't know, just currious! Thanks


That's the exact reason we purchased a kerosene heater (forced air model) because the drywallers had that running to keep the house warm. We also approved that with our builder before putting the unit in.


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## Cyndi Lou (Nov 28, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Cyndi, how did you insure a house w/o a C of O? What kind of insurance is it? Is the builder insured? (Construction insurance) Did you hire this builder to build you a house on your land, or is this a new subdivision or offering from a builder on speculation?


Builder is building on our land and the policy that we are carring during construction is a Builders Risk Policy. It covers the house the same as if we lived there with the exception it will cover all the supplies that are stored in the house, wood, cabinets, faucets, copper piping, etc. We have American Family Insurance and our agent is great. He made sure that if any thing happens, we are covered at the building site as well as covered at our current home. This entire building process has been a lot more time involved on our part then either of us imagined. Again, we have a reputable builder, but I had the feeling that this issue of water in the basement wasn't as much of a every day thing as our foreman made it out to be. 

Since the gas is going in on Monday, takes up to two days to have it inspected by Dominion, then another day for the guys to finish hooking it up, I figure we are at another week of heating the house with heater.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

Cyndi Lou said:


> That's the exact reason we purchased a kerosene heater (forced air model) because the drywallers had that running to keep the house warm. We also approved that with our builder before putting the unit in.




I think you're doing the best that you can do, and everything I personally would do. Good work.


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