# Challenge: Toilet Leaks through bolts but only when flushed!



## racerted

Absolutely frustrated here and I'm an engineer too. I replaced the guts of my toilet (second one) with standard Fluidm**ster replacement kit. And I can't get it to stop leaking but only when I flush the toilet. I've replaced the flange gasket several times. It does not leak between the bowl and the reservoir. It only leaks down the bolts that connect the reservoir to the bowl. 

I don't get it. I used blue pellets to color the water. When I just took the reservoir off, the flange gasket was completely dry with no indications of not seating properly. I didn't think the rubber gaskets under the brass washer and wing nut was really there as a water sealing surface. Is the flange gasket the only water containing component other than what is inside the reservoir itself? 

I have a two bolt configuration for the reservoir.

Thanks for any suggestions and I have rebuilt it several times with all new soft goods to no avail. I thought about a cracked reservoir but wouldn't that leak all the time? It doesn't.

Thanks.
Ted


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## racerted

*Additional info*

I wasn't that clear. When I fill the tank with water, no leaks. When I flush, it only leaks (drips) from the tank to bowl bolts.


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## Bonus

Try putting some grease on the tank bolt washers.


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## redline

racerted said:


> It does not leak between the bowl and the reservoir. It only leaks down the bolts that connect the reservoir to the bowl.
> 
> Ted


Do you have rubber washers on the tank bolts?
Where is the first place that you see water after it is flushed?


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## racerted

*Installed exactly as directed*

I have built and rebuilt with new washers, flange gaskets, etc. Leak only comes from bolts/wingnut that holds tank to bowl. Drip rate is a drip a second. I have rubber washers against porcelan in tank and under bowl. Metal washers between wingnut and rubber washer.

If the flange gasket is installed correctly (flush with tank) and tank is centered over the bowl, how is water getting to the bolts. There should be no path. Also it doesn't leak when sitting there. Only when flushed.


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## Ron The Plumber

The flushvalve in the center could have a crack in it, sounds unlikely but could be it, when I install new bolts I put them in this order.

Bolt > Rubber Washer > Through Tank > Rubber Washer > Metal Washer > Nut > Set Tank on Bowl > Metal Washer > Wing Nut.

With this order I know I will have a positive seal on both the inside and bottom of tank.

Never had a problem yet.


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## Mike Swearingen

Ron (a pro, I'm not) always cringes at this, but it works everytime for me...smear a little clear silicone caulk on the dry washers.
Good luck!
Mike


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## joasis

Mike Swearingen said:


> Ron (a pro, I'm not) always cringes at this, but it works everytime for me...smear a little clear silicone caulk on the dry washers.
> Good luck!
> Mike


I have done this also, it works. I have noticed that the "toilet in a box" deals from Lowes and HD are prone to problems like this, since they are the very bottom in quality. I disposd of one due to a defect where the flapper sits in the bottom of the tank...just wouldn't seal properly...and now I think there is kit to fix these problems. We did quit using the el-cheapo toilets in the spec homes due to problems.


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## racerted

Being an engineer I'm not just looking to fix it. I also want to know why! Anyways, I have a second Fluidmaster kit to fix the third toilet in the house. I'll try that one and see if any different. I've been trying to avoid the caulking and lube on rubber washer. It shouldn't be necessary and it wasn't there on the original. 

Any opinions on one piece toilets other than they are expensive? I don't want to pay $300+ to fix a $20 problem.


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## Ron The Plumber

Yes one piece toilet are expensive, before you buy one, try the way I install new tank to bowl kits in the order I do it, oh and while the tank is off, and you have the bolts installed, take tank outside and test it without it connected to the toilet. Also before you set it back on bowl, tighten up the that large nut on the bottom of the tank flush valve.


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## redline

This is not condensation from the tank?


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## redline

Have you replaced this kit twice for the same problem?
What was the initial problem?

Describe each step as how you removed the tank and guts.
Describe each step to re-installing the guts and tank.

Do you have a photo?


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## racerted

Definitely not condensation. I have replaced the kit in upstairs bathroom last year. This is the second toilet that I've worked on. I managed to get it right on the first one but have had no success.

Ron, I'll give it a try installing your way but just don't have much confidence. Your method assumes the leak is coming from the tank. I think it is coming from the connection between the tank and the bowl. You said to basically to seal the tank from both sides with rubber washers but there will be no seal on the bottom of the bowl. Maybe I should just add a rubber washer there also. Can't see how that would hurt.

And by the way guys, I really appreciate your help. Either you get paid for this or really just want us DIY'ers to succeed!


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## Ron The Plumber

We want you to succeed

If you seal the tank my way, then no gasket is needed on the bowl, the only other place leak could be is from the flush valve seal or there is a hairline crack somewhere on the bowl.

See picture below, 










Now see Below tank to bowl, if the toilet leaks only after you flush then it will be between the bowl and tank, the gasket as seen below, is it a thick foam or a thin one, you did install a new tank to bowl gasket right?


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## redline

I was also thinking that there may be a hair line crack in the tank but it has been said that it "only" leaks when it is being flushed?:confused1: 


See what happens if you remove the water line that goes into the overflow and just allow it to put water into the tank?:confused1: 

Have you installed the rubber gasket between the tank and the bowl upside down?:confused1: (I am not sure how this would allow the water to get onto the tank bolts)

Is this a power assisted toilet?


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## Ron The Plumber

racerted said:


> I used blue pellets to color the water.


Where was the color water trial that should have shown up from using this color tablet?


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## racerted

This is standard commerical grade toilet with no pressure assist. In fact it is the Fluidimaster setup that Ron shows in the picture.

I have tried 3 different flange gaskets by two different manufacturers. I have installed them all flush against the tank. They were black or red and thick, about 3/4" to 1" in height. 

I've been busy with kids soccer so I haven't had chance to play with it but will this weekend. Stay tuned.


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## racerted

*Color trail*

Non-existent. That really confused me. It just dripped down the bolts. I couldn't really see anything else. That's what really bothered me. I should have seen a trail from the flange gasket to the bolt but I didn't.


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## Ron The Plumber

I almost believe there is a hairline crack in the bowl, not the tank but bowl near the bolt area, which leak would not be seen until you flush the tank, other then that without seeing it for myself, thats all I the idea's I can give.

When you do solve it please post your findings.


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## racerted

Another few hours of frustration yesterday. I replaced the valves, flange gasket, flange nut. Still leaks. What I did realize is that there is lots of adjustability with centering the tank. The bolts are 1/4" in ~1/2 inch holes. Moving things around didn't seem to work.

Also I tried your bolts installation order. I didn't like the rubber washers on the outside of the tank because the tank didn't seem to sit close enough. I still believe the leak is from the flange gasket as I did see some wet spots on the gasket this time.

I haven't tried removing the rubber grommets on the back of the bowl. I assume they function as shims and bumpers. 

I can't see any cracks nor do I see how these could cause leaks. I'm losing credibility with my wife for fix it jobs too.


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## redline

If your other toilet is the same make then swap out the tanks and see if the problem follows the tank.:confused1:


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## racerted

They are all the same. I'm a little gun shy right now. I'm worried that I might be stuck with two leaky toilets and my wife would really be ticked at me. 

I'm beginning to question my manliness if I can't fix a damn toilet.

Again I come back to being an engineer for this leak. I want to understand the physics of the leak. I'm talking forces, pressure, head, etc. When the toilet is just sitting there, the rubber washers under the bolt head in the tank and the flapper prevent any leaks. Then I flush and the water is supposed to exit the tank via the valve flapper. At this point the water is held in the valve and bowl with the flange gasket. I would think the tank weight along with the tightened wing nuts compress this flange gasket into the female portion of the bowl. With proper centering and compression, there should be no way the water can get to the bolts in the space between the tank and the bowl. 

The only piece of info I haven't provided is that I used the standard replacement brass washer and nut on the outside of the tank. I think the original that I removed and discarded was a plastic one. I guess its possible this is creating an interference and I can't get the compression on the gasket that is necessary. This could just be that it doesn't fit. However, this a standard "Gerber" elongated two piece toilet. When I compare this toilet to the one in which I already replaced the valves etc, I see the same clearance between the bowl and tank.


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## J187

My advice would be to try and get over your gunshyness and swap out those tanks. Redline's right. It may be a problem that you simply cannot see and swapping out the tanks will narrow the possiblity of troublespots. C'mon, being an engineer, you"ve GOT to respect the process of elimination...


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## Ron The Plumber

Did you install a new flush valve?


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## racerted

I'm not gun shy. As far as I see it, I'll still have one working toilet. But then the wife will be all over me.

Yes, I tried another valve assembly and got the same results.


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## tribe_fan

My two cents - I'm not a pro but have replaced a few of these in my time.

The leak has to caused by fit of the tank onto bowl.

- Make darn sure the the "gasket" is fitted properly over the large nut.
- Make sure there is nothing "rough" where the gasket fits onto the bowl. 
- Remove those bumpers - I've never seen them. 
- If your supply line is a "solid" copper tube vrs the flexible supply line - make sure that it is not pulling the tank down or pushing the tank up before starting to tighten the nuts-
- Use brass nut instead of the wing nuts - don't overtighten, but make sure that you tighten them equally - kind of wiggle it into place then alternate. It should be reasonably level when complete. and not tilted front to back.


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## Ron The Plumber

Did you take the tank outside and run any test on it, like fill tank flush it, fill tank flush it . 

Hairline crack on tank where the problem bolt is, replace the tank or get a new toilet.


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## redline

Update?:whistling2:


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## Double A

Stop the presses. 

He said the magic "G" word, "Gerber". 

Gerber doesn't use a standard spud gasket that you will find in the kit, its uses a special thick gasket. In fact, its the thickest one made, as far as I know (at least for domestic toilets).

Most spud gaskets are 3/4" to 1" thick. The Gerber is 1-3/16" - 1-1/4". Go down to your local hardware store and ask them for a Gerber spud (tank-to-bowl) gasket.

As for the physics, I can't say for sure, but I think that during a flush water is returning up the gasket between the flush valve and gasket and hitting the bottom of the tank and washing to the sides, wetting your tank bolts. Your gasket is not compressing enough. Gerber has a large recess for this to fit into and its quite difficult to see the spud gasket with the tank installed, let alone see if its leaking.


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## 747

I would take that toliet outside and smash it in the drive way. Why? Because its peeing me off.


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## hobbyfixer

*toilet leak*

Come on Racerted, you're an engineer, I'm an engineer too. Obviously if the leak is only when you flush, it has to come from the toilet to bowl gasket connection as Ron says. I would make dam* sure the gasket is the right thickness and size as the original and is fit snugly. As for the wet bolts and pipes, it may as well be a fine spray while flushing. Good luck with it :thumbsup: . Cheers.


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## dourobob

Thanks Ron
I am new to this forum and you have just saved me from hours of frustration. The toilet we bought did NOT have the extra (according to them) rubber washers for under the tank and under the bowl. With these in place (an aftermarket kit - about $7) we now have a leak free toilet.

Cheers 
Douro Bob


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## Ron The Plumber

Glad you found your answer on here, welcome to the site.


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## Fusion1

I have a similar problem as the original poster only the leak isn't from the tank bolts like he was having. I have noticed this for a month or so but at first it was only a slight amount of water but it only leaked in the center of where the tank meets bowl and the water would generally flow into the bowl from under the tank if that makes sense. Since I had no idea about toilets in general I had no idea what would be causing the problem. First I thought maybe it was the tank bolts but they were dry underneath and the rushing water from the center made me think it was the flush valve. Before I remove the tank and spend the time draining it, I would like to know if I am going to have a hard time finding a replacement repair kit like the original poster did? It took months before someone randomly mentioned, "Oh it was a Gerber, so he bought the wrong sized gasket". If I can avoid an oversight like that I would appreciate it. Also on some of the DIY sites they show the gasket with a flange, but they say with the flange facing up towards the pipe, yet the drawing shows the flange facing down towards the bowl (very contradictory). I am confused if the washer goes on the flush valve before the tank is placed back on the bowl or after it is on. Also where is the other metal washer that I read about besides the rubber spud washer?

Excerpt:Now take the rubber spud washer, which fits between the tank and bowl, and set it squarely into the flush valve opening in the bottom of the tank. *The washer goes beveled side out* (Fig. 10). 

Oddly the figure showed the bevel on a downward angle. Not sure what beveled side out means...


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## Fusion1

Also the other thing that seems contradictory is in the last paragraph of my last post in the excerpt it mentions the rubber spud washer fits between the tank and bowl, yet it says it fits between the opening of the flush valve *in* the tank itself. The pictures I have seen makes the gasket look like a small donut, so how can it be between the tank and bowl as well as being on the inside of the tank?


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## gogo

Ron The Plumber said:


> The flushvalve in the center could have a crack in it, sounds unlikely but could be it, when I install new bolts I put them in this order.
> 
> Bolt > Rubber Washer > Through Tank > Rubber Washer > Metal Washer > Nut > Set Tank on Bowl > Metal Washer > Wing Nut.
> 
> With this order I know I will have a positive seal on both the inside and bottom of tank.
> 
> Never had a problem yet.


Hey Ron, I used this bolt/washer order during my recent replacement of the tank-to-bowl bolts and gasket, but I have a leak somewhere still, I'm guessing from the gasket. I'm concerned that the nuts between the tank and the bowl are preventing the gasket from getting the tight, snug fit that it needs to keep water from leaking out. Before my repair, there were no nuts/washers between the tank and the bowl. (The bowl came with rubber gaskets that fit into the bolt holes.) Could this be the problem? Isn't the tank supposed to sit directly on top of the bowl? Thanks in advance!

Jed


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## ponch37300

Fusion1... The flush valve goes threw the tank from the inside, there is a washer that screws onto the flush valve from the bottom(outside) of the tank, then the doughnut washer fits onto the flush valve, beveled side facing away from the tank. In other words the beveled side goes into the hole on the bowl of the toilet, so if you are looking at the toilet all put together the beveled side would be facing down. Hope this helps.


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## chowman

Just experienced the exact same problem as original poster - verbatim. Measured old Gerber spud gasket vs universal replacement(same manufacturer as poster) and came to same conclusion as the poster who already knew Gerber gasket was larger. Found this site while googling for Gerber gasket to buy. Hope this helps spare anyone with Gerber toilet future headache.


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## jpgaskell

*Gerber toilet leaks between tank & bowl*

The Gerber toilet requires an extra-large gasket between the tank and the bowl.

Lavelle Industries (Lavelle.Com or Korky.Com) makes a #460 gasket that will do the job.

Aubuchon Hardware (HardwareStore.Com) carries them, but they must be special ordered (sets of 10) $33 incl S&H.


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## Yoyizit

*I use that white teflon paste so I don't have to torque down the fasteners so tight that I worry about stripping the threads (especially when installing Fluidmasters) or cracking porcelain.*


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## TazinCR

It has to be the bowl cracked. Think about it when you flush the pressure in the tanks never changes just the flow. My guess would be you tightened the bolts a little to much and cracked the bowl or there was a defect and you opened it up.Just my two cents worth.


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## Burger

*Gerber toilet leak (spud question)*

My problem is the same as the original poster. I purchased a flui.......er kit and replaced all the parts and still leaked. One poster suggested buying a gerber spud which I did. I am having trouble getting the spud over the plastic nut on the bottom of the tank. Does it need to fit over the nut and if so, is there any trick to getting it to stay in place before re-installing. Or, will the spud form to the pressure when the tank bolts are tightened. Tax and investments I can do, repairing a toilet....WOW! Thanks for your help.


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## mstplumber

Based on your description of the problem, it sounds like their could be a crack in the bowl itself. Since water flows into the bowl at the tank connection and then through various channels in the bowl, depending on the bowl design, a crack in the bolt hole area could cause the kind of leak you have.

It sounds like you have done a good job of eliminating the tank as the culprit so that only leaves the bowl, especially since it only leaks when flushed, which is also the only time water is in the top section of the bowl.

Also, you shouldn't have to spend several hundred bucks on a one- piece toilet to avoid this issue. There are millions of two-piece toilets installed with no problems.


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## SD515

Ron the Plumber said: 

Bolt > Rubber Washer > Through Tank > **Rubber Washer**> Metal Washer > Nut > Set Tank on Bowl > Metal Washer > Wing Nut.

Check the instructions again. I've installed quite a few Fluidmaster kits with great success, but it's been a while. The only thing I don't remember is putting a rubber washer directly under the tank (see above where I added the asteriks). When I had a leak coming down the new bolt, usually I could tighten the nut just a tad bit and stop it. A hairline crack by the tank mount bolts or a bit of dirt under the rubber washer (inside) may cause a small leak also.


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## Alan

tribe_fan said:


> My two cents - I'm not a pro but have replaced a few of these in my time.
> 
> The leak has to caused by fit of the tank onto bowl.
> 
> - Make darn sure the the "gasket" is fitted properly over the large nut.
> - Make sure there is nothing "rough" where the gasket fits onto the bowl.
> - Remove those bumpers - I've never seen them.
> - If your supply line is a "solid" copper tube vrs the flexible supply line - make sure that it is not pulling the tank down or pushing the tank up before starting to tighten the nuts-
> - Use brass nut instead of the wing nuts - don't overtighten, but make sure that you tighten them equally - kind of wiggle it into place then alternate. It should be reasonably level when complete. and not tilted front to back.


those bumpers come standard in every gerber toilet. It makes for a nice soft fit of the tank onto the bowl when you tighten 'er down. :thumbup:


We've had a lot of trouble with sterling toilets. For some reason the tank to bowl gasket just doesn't seat very easily. If you're not spot-on when you set that tank down, you'll have a leak when flushing.

It's gotta be the tank to bowl gasket. Did you note whether it was smaller or larger than the original? Different shape? Different material?


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## lucaboy

*Same problem different solution*

First thanks to everyone who has replied to the post, really gave me direction in trying to fix the same issue that others have had. So here was my issue and how i resolved it:
My wife was bugging me about fixing our bottom stairs toilet because it was running every five minutes. I wasn't sure why the toilet was running by my assumption was that there was a leak that was causing water from the tank to the toilet bowl. In order to track if there was a leak I added a few drops of food coloring to the tank and almost immediately saw the water in the bowl turning color. I decided to buy a complete Fluidmaster toilet tank repair valve kit from Lowes and installed it per the instructions. I filled up the tank with water and waited about 20 minutes just watching for any leaks on the bolts or base of the bowl, none occurred. I felt confident enough for the inaugural flush however as the water began flowing into the bowl, i saw that a ton of water was leaking from the bolts as well as on the floor. 
After some trial and error as well as a few visits to Lowes I decided to drive down to Homedepot.. there I found out that I needed to get the correct gasket for the bowl. In my case, my bowl was a Briggs... sure enough Fluidmaster made a gasket for Briggs (Extra Thick Gasket 3 1/2 Outer Diameter, 2 1/8 Inner Diameter, 1 1/8 thick) Fits American Standard, Briggs, Kilgore, Norris and Universal Rundle bowls. 
After I installed it the toilet worked perfectly... and I test drove it that night!
So moral of the story, the Fluidmaster Kits work, however double check the parts are comparable to what is currently installed. Good luck to those of you earning your plumbers crack! :thumbup:


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## markwintch

I have a Gerber toilet and bought the Fluidmaster complete repair kit for $20 at Wal Mart. I had the exact same problem, after reading this thread I replaced the bowl to tank seal with the old one and the problem is fixed. Thank you for the information.


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## zlionsfan

*wish I'd found this thread years ago*

The toilet in my guest bathroom hasn't worked well in years; I don't know that much about plumbing, so I figured I'd try switching out the works to see if that helped. I thought I'd done it correctly, but there was a significant leak between tank and bowl when I flushed it, so I figured I'd missed something and I left it alone. 

Well, the toilet in the master bathroom had problems, so I had to replace the flush and fill valve, and lo! The same problem occurred ... but this time I found this thread, went back and checked, and sure enough, they're both Gerber toilets, and I'd bought Fluidmaster kits to fix both of them. I had saved one of the old gaskets: when I swapped that one in for the Fluidmaster gasket, the toilet worked fine. 

Thanks to you all for explaining it so clearly! I knew something was off but didn't know where to look. Now I do: back at the store to find the correct size gasket for the guest toilet.


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## diyguy92

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It helped me diagnose my Gerber toilet that had suddenly started leaking when flushed, dripping from the tank bolts. 

I replaced the tank-to-bowl gasket with a generic one from the local hardware store, but that did not help. Apparently the Gerber _*does*_ need a thicker gasket. 

I removed the U-shaped rubber spacers from between tank and bowl, allowing the gasket to seat deeper and tighter, and that seems to have fixed the problem. The tank now easily comes right down against the bowl pedestal, which would seem to show that the generic gasket is not really thick enough to make a tight seal with the spacers in place. 

I had lost one of the four spacers anyway - it probably got flushed down the drain.

I am just glad that the bowl is not cracked.


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## Lightfoot

wow, this thread been here longer than me.


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## lake repair

*Fancy Spud Gasket*

After calling several plumbing supply stores and them not having the thicker spud gasket - Gerber's existing toilet lost out to a new Eljer toilet. after spending 2 days trying to fix the gerber I threw in the towel, bought a new toilet. the new toilet was installed in about an hour.


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## mattrbl

Hello

Commenting on the toilet leaking when flushed conversation. 

I have one doing the same thing. Seems to me that it must be the gasket that is leaking. If true, after the flush, it leaks, and the water runs to the lowest point as gravity takes it downward. That's to the end of the bols and then it drips to the floor. it must be the gasket that is bad or a crack right?


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## plummen

racerted said:


> Definitely not condensation. I have replaced the kit in upstairs bathroom last year. This is the second toilet that I've worked on. I managed to get it right on the first one but have had no success.
> 
> Ron, I'll give it a try installing your way but just don't have much confidence. Your method assumes the leak is coming from the tank. I think it is coming from the connection between the tank and the bowl. You said to basically to seal the tank from both sides with rubber washers but there will be no seal on the bottom of the bowl. Maybe I should just add a rubber washer there also. Can't see how that would hurt.
> 
> And by the way guys, I really appreciate your help. Either you get paid for this or really just want us DIY'ers to succeed!


 Adding rubber washers under the bowl side will do no good,youre trying to seal the bolts coming through the tank itself.
Ive been installing toilets exactly the same way as he said for years also,if that doesnt cure it look for a crack in tank or a bad seal in center.


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## phxhawk

I had the same issue with a Gerber. Get the next size up gasket(thicker and larger diameter), put the Flu******er one on the hex nut, place the bigger one on the bowl, set tank on, tighten wing nuts, and be done. This was not bolt leaks, but tank/bowl leak when flushed.


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