# Basement redo - 2013



## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

When I first bought my house I tore out the basement due to mold and other issues, and turns out I had to redo weeping tiles because of leaks. Finally got to a point where I saved up enough money for supplies. 

This year my goal is to frame and dricore, and most likely run the wiring for electrical and data as well as various environmental sensors such as floor water moisture sensors.

So far I've only been doing misc projects to prep for the actual framing, but I'm ready to start soon. I kept running into issues where I realize I need a certain tool but think I got everything covered now! Also realized that building the walls in place will be much easier than building on the floor, especially given the limited space I have to work in with all the lumber and stuff around. I'll hopefully be good to go tomorrow! I decided I will build the walls in place starting with the top plate, then using a plumb bob which I bought the other day, to determine where the bottom plate goes, then I can be dead on. 


Hre's some pics:




Lumber and half of the dricore arrived! I had to haul all this myself as the delivery service only drops it outside. That was a workout. 170 2x4's and 120 dricore tiles in that pic. Another 120 outside but I had left it there overnight, was too weak and was literally collapsing. The snow was also starting to come down real hard.



Next morning... I totally wished I had just toughed it out and finished it. 



Done, but a few days later I moved it all in the basement, that much weight on the floor was making me nervous. Floor was not quite level before. It is now. :thumbup:



Had to cap a line as the rest of it was in the way, and not in use anyway, was just capped further down. This is my first copper solder project. Very minor mind you.



Got a pro to break up the floor to save me from doing the work, and I ran a drain pipe leading to the sump pit, and poured concrete. That allows me to get rid of the long condensate going over the floor.


Furnace was leaking from moving the condensate line too much. The clip that keeps in in place broke. Temp fix.... actually it's still like that now and holding up. I might actually just leave it. If it works.... :jester:


Week later, still not cured! Something's gone wrong... ended up redoing it. Even another week and it was still not cured.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Reached image limit.... continued:




New cement. Helps when I use the right stuff, and when it's not like 3 years old! 


Added a drain line for the humidifier, had been wanting to do that but figured I'd wait till I run the new drain in case I change my mind on how I want to do things. 3/4 copper with a ball valve. The capped piece is a place I can connect a hose such as for a dehumidifier (ironicly) in summer. 


Rerouted condensate and joined the humidifier drain. The leak you see in the pic is fixed, I had not pushed it far enough in the shark bite. The shark bite seemed like the most appropriate way to join the two types of pipe. It's a 3/4 CPVC that goes to a T. One end of the T converts to 1/2 for the furnace. I kinda messed up going to the furnace, the horizontal run was a tad too short. Ended up working out ok, since it's not a high pressure system I'm not really that concerned. No leaks. 



And that's it for now. The laundry/furnace room is what needed the most prep work due to stuff in the way. I still have the electrical panel and laundry tub to worry about, and some more plumbing, but I think I will skip that wall for now and decide what to do after. I will also be able to cover the sump pit more or less completely now that I have that floor drain, but I will still make it accessible.

Not much so far, but I'll keep posting as I put in some progress. I've been lazy for the past few weeks and did not touch much. Going to go full tilt tomorrow and try to get at least the first crawlspace wall done. Once I get started I'm sure things will speed up and I may be able to do the rest faster. First time framing.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

I've been lazy and have not been putting much time into my basement, but I finally put work in, and finished the first wall span. This is my first time framing ever. I'd say about half way it was really starting to roll, but it's hard on the knees working in there! Doing the crawlspace first, then the basement. By then I'm sure things will be going faster. What's long though is drilling the holes for the tapcons. Good 10-15 minute per hole! I only put 2 per 2x4, but for basement part I will probably put 3.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Have not been working on this every day, but I put in some time in the past few days and got more progress done. The framing for the crawlspace is almost done. Longest part is the top and bottom plates, once those are in the rest is pretty fast. I just have the studs to put for one length and that's it. Then I can put in the drycore! 

Can't wait to be done working in there, it's hard on the knees and back! Once the crawlspace is done I can start on the actual basement part as well as the server room. The more fun stuff. 

Was using tapcons to put the bottom plate but it was taking bloody ages, so I decided to get THIS. Very fun tool to use!




Jig I made to quickly measure for studs








Back of crawlspace studs done






Let's play a game! Spot the plumbing issue. Little oopsie there by my contractor from a while back. At least he did not notch the hell out of those joists... he did what he could.



Really I should have rerouted that so it shoots straight along the first joist then just dip down once at the far end. Would have made the top plate easier too.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

What are your plans for the crawlspace? I've never seen anyone finish a crawlspace before.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Spray foam and dricore, and to fire block the insulation I'll have to put up drywall so that's why I'm framing it. I'll probably run a couple electrical outlets and stuff too, never know if I may need to plug something in there, like a vacuum. More or less just want to make it a cleaner space that I can walk in without needing shoes. Used for storage only.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

How high is the ceiling in there?


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

About 44" or so. Low enough that it's a pain to work in, but still high enough that I don't have to actually crawl. The dricore will take off a few inches mind you. Going to start work tonight for 6 days then I'll be off for 6 so probably do the dricore then. Should be fairly easy to install I imagine, never done it before. There's a few spots where it might get tricky though but nothing absurd.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

You may have already mentioned this, but have you thought about taping the seams on the duct work and insulating it?

You're doing a great job in that crawl space. It looks nice & clean.

ETA:
Here is something you might think about getting or making something similar to it. 
It would make it a lot easier to scoot around in the crawl space without having to be on your knees or bending over.
I got one like it and used it when we were insulating my mom's crawl space a few years ago.
You could probably find one at a garage sale or on Craigs List.
Let me know if the picture doesn't show up.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

I thought of sealing the ducts better but figured, it helps add heat in there anyway. Though I should probably block the two supplies so I can get more pressure as I don't really need much heat down there, just enough to say I'm getting some air movement. I also need to remove the dampers, they arn't aligned with the lever anymore so it's a guessing game as to how they are even positioned. The two vents in the living room above (the end of the main duct) don't get much pressure. 

And that toy gave me an idea... You know those scooter thingies in school gym glass as a kid? THAT is what I need. LOL. All done framing now though, just got the dricore to put in, then I can start on the basement part. I have 6 days of 12 hour shifts though, so I'll only be starting after that.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm off work now, so going to continue on this. 

This was fun to build:



I can't help but think of how fun it would be to go down an inclined street with this thing. :jester:The potential trip to the ER that would follow would be less fun. 

It's actually so I can move dricore tiles around when I start on the crawlspace tomorrow. Will also act as a place to put other supplies as I work. Wish I had thought of this sooner actually.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Good updates.

Loving the pictures and the fact that we don't get that kind of snow here.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Finally a bit of dricore installed. Started late today, then ended up going to spend some time with family, so I put maybe an hour or so of work.  I'm a slacker. Not that much in a hurry though so just chipping away at my own leisure. Some days I'm just not in the mood or have other stuff to do around the house. 





Going to be adding a door here. That's the crawlspace under the garage. Not going to do anything special there. 



Goes really well with that cart I made... can't imagine having to haul tiles down there by hand. 

Hoping to finish tomorrow if I can get myself to get up before 2 lol.


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## cdnNick (May 28, 2011)

Wow that's a lot of storage space with room under the garage as well. I wish I had that kind of storage space. Mind you I would probably just collect more crap anyways.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah it is kind of nice to have that much storage. On the other hand, more basement would be nice too, and I could just make a storage room a quarter of that size. Moved lot of stuff out of there today so I can finish the dricore, I actually found two high school year books that I spent almost an hour going through haha. Crazy to think that was 10 years ago. 

Got maybe 2 rows to go then I'm done the crawlspace. Started late today and I have to go to bed early tonight because there's church tomorrow so ran out of time. Going to finish the rest tomorrow. There's one small section I did not frame but decided I'll need to frame it in order to get drywall around it so I'll do that too. 

The dricore does have a bit of tendancy to have slivers chip off given it's waferboard, so I'm probably going to stain and varnish it. Seen it done and looks pretty sharp to consider it's just a sub floor product. Though I'm also debating of maybe using commercial vinyl tile. That would also be more water proof in case a pipe leaks or something.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Crawlspace officially done!





I start work tomorrow, so I'll be taking a break for a week or so till I'm off again. Nice to be more or less done with the crawlspace now. Just need to decide how to finish the floor as it will be staying that way permanently, at least in the crawlspace.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

More progress, been working on this on and off, so seems it's taking long, but sometimes I go multiple weeks without touching it, due to work and other stuff that has to be done. 

Framed rest of basement (these pics were taken today but it was done a while back)









Also added more lighting on one side:




Today I did the laundry room.

Before: 



Plumbing removed:



And after:





Was a tricky wall to do since there is lot of stuff on top making it impossible to put the top plate on the joists. So had to get a bit creative. Yesterday I put some nailing blocks using construction adhesive and let it cure overnight, then today I did the rest. 

Also had to remove all the plumbing, so terminated the hot and cold with valves so I can turn the water back on. Never hurts to have valves anyway to isolate part of the plumbing. If I was to do it all from scratch I'd go the manifold route.


Tomorrow I'm hoping to fix some electrical stuff (relocate dryer and washer outlets) and also do the plumbing, then the dricore. Once the dricore is in I can move the laundry tub, washer and dryer back. Also debating on buying a new laundry tub, the one I have is a double, and one leg is kinda loose. Might replace with a single, that will allow me to push the washer and dryer more to the side to give better access to the electrical panel.

I also plan to get an estimate to see how much it would cost to upgrade to 200 amps so at the same time I can frame behind it which will allow me to insulate. I'll also get an estimate on the cost of simply moving it as is. 

Worse case scenario, I can always just put an insulated door that seals all around.


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## Sunnybono (Apr 20, 2013)

Hey RS, nice work so far. Looking forward to seeing your final product. 

I see that you used Dricore. Im thinking the same thing too for the basement. Just wandering if you would share where you bought the dricore from and how much??

sk


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## ehoez (May 12, 2008)

did you waterproof /seal that block wall behind the washer/dryer first?


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

In what way? Next year or whenever I have the money I'll be getting it spray foamed. I did get outside waterproofing done for most of the house last year though as there was a few leaky issues including the laundry room. Some of the blocks are "rotted" from excessive moisture so they look wet but they just stay black all the time. 

Also realized I forgot to update this thread, more pics!





New laundry room plumbing... was tricky getting those in given I did not have room to crimp the elbow in place, but it gets the job done.




Laundry room pretty much finished, though once the whole basement is done I want to revisit the dricore and decide on a surfacing to make it at least water resistant. Maybe a couple thick coats of varnish or something. Want to be able to walk bare foot on it. 





Here was tricky... floor is very bouncy because of sump pit, tapcons arn't any good for pull strength, tried that and failed. I shimmed it up so it does not bounce anymore but it's like almost an inch off the ground. Will have to do, it's just to give me a clean surface to walk on, laundry room will probably stay in it's rough in state, no tiles or anything. 





And new laundry tub! This enabled me to push the washer and dryer further, making it easier to access the electrical panel.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Sunnybono said:


> Hey RS, nice work so far. Looking forward to seeing your final product.
> 
> I see that you used Dricore. Im thinking the same thing too for the basement. Just wandering if you would share where you bought the dricore from and how much??
> 
> sk




I bought it at Home Depot.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/2-f...ed-subfloor-panel-system-pallet-of-120/813185
(I like how it says "in store only", imagine the shipping cost on that LOL)

You can buy individually or buy in skids. I bought 2 skids. My measurements called for a bit more than 2 skids, but figured I'd start with that and buy any extra I do need, as I was generous when measuring so may have ended up with too many anyway.

One skid of 120 is $836.40. They are 2'x2' so that comes up to about 2 bucks per square foot. I'll be using it as the actual floor, which is not what it's designed for, but I'll try to make it work. Eventually I will put proper floor over it, but goal of this particular reno is to simply have a clean walkable floor and insulation. So once the drywall goes up (code, due to foam insulation) it will stay that way for a while before I do anything else. I'm single, so I don't need two bathrooms, or anything like that. It would just be more stuff I have to clean. :laughing:


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Bit more progress, started on the server room stuff:





Added some cable management "ducts" for the existing server rack, put the new rack against it, and built a battery rack. Still have to finish the cable management for the other side. I added 3 ABS pipes going back to front in case I need to route cables. All exposed wood will be painted black afterwards.

Plan is to have everything fairly well sealed up so air can be forced through the equipment, and batteries. I'll be designing an air exchange system to keep it cool while also recycling the exhaust air to help heat the house. Though I will have to also exhaust it outside at certain intervals to clear any hydrogen. There will be a sensor to monitor levels at all times coming out of the battery rack.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

More pics!


Battery rack bolted



Server rack bolted


Racks

I plan to paint all wood black. I may even attempt to paint the beige rack too. 

The holes in the wooden battery rack will have fans in them to keep the air circulating to avoid hydrogen built up.



Today I added the intake and exhaust. I plan to have a custom hvac system that will basically grab air and exhaust air from/to different locations based on indoor and outdoor temperature. Ex: in winter I will grab air from the crawlspace under the garage and exhaust it to the furnace return. In summer when it's hot but cooler outside it will grab air from outside and exhaust outside. Though I may also add a HRV to the mix and always exhaust outside that way I am playing it safe with any hydrogen build up, and I can add as many batteries as I want without having to worry about that. With the 4 batteries I have now though I'm not too worried.


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## charliebaird (Oct 19, 2013)

Looks good so far . Are you planning on spray foaming everything?


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Yep next year or whenever I have the money I'll get everything spray foamed. I left about half an inch of space behind the studs too so that shoudl work out nicely. Will make the world of a difference in winter as the basement is really drafty and cold in winter considering there's no insulation or vapor barrier. 

Just finished cleaning out lot of stuff to prep for dricore. Getting near the end.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Had a bit of time off to do some more work, the cleanup actually took the longest, as I had to clear out all the basement. Once that was done I started on dricore.

Doing around the servers and stairs was a pain, but it's all going to go faster from here. Going to build the server room walls before I finish the dricore though, to get the rest of the lumber out of the way.






And a shoddy cabling job behind the server rack. That will be fixed once I'm done the rest. That hanging electrical outlet is also going to be fixed, I don't think that is to code. :laughing:

I work a bunch more hours starting tomorrow though so wont be touching this for another 2 weeks at least.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

If you were thinking about using zipties for cable management, don't. Try velcro straps. Best trick I've learned in a long time.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah I only use tie wraps for permanent stuff and even then I've started using velcro as when I run new cable it's easier to just undo the bundle and add in the new cable then reput the velcro. For new runs I run a metal wire and tension it so when I'm going across joists I can velcro the cables to the metal wire and it keeps them from sagging. 

At the rack, I probably wont even use much of anything as the wires will be going through the ducts on the side. There will be wood slats to keep the cables in place. Though I might staple velcro strips instead too.


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

I like the metal wire idea. I'd probably never have a use for it, but it's better than those mini catwalk like trays that people use.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Some more progress. Framed the server room and stuff. 




Going to add a door for the crawlspace



Like a glove... and I did not even plan to put the file cabinet there!


overkill concrete anchors


 

Vapor barrier + wood added. This will all be painted, probably black.



This will be closed in with plywood, probably use it for various controls and stuff, as well as voltage display and stuff of that sort. Maybe even put a bunch of buttons that don't actually do anything, just for fun. 

Need to do lot of caulking too and even spray foam in a few spots like between the racks then once that is done I'll be ready to paint. Goal is to seal everything as best as I can to optimize the hot/cold aisle air flow.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Another update!


Sub panel, lighting and electrical is mostly done:





Finally retired my old trusty 1960's outlet that I never bothered putting a switch plate on:



Next project once all this is done is to organize the cabling behind the server rack. 

Got rid of the extension cord for my fibre internet:


All neat and labeled!



Server rack feeder circuits:


Cable management system done on the front, now to do the back:



Also installed the door, forgot to take a pic of that, I'll post it next update.


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## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Looks good. A few questions.

1.
Are you putting a surge on your main panel?
http://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-CHSPT2ULTRA-Single-Edition/dp/B005C5NQTA

2.
Do you have a HVAC run to the server room?

3.
What are you running that you need a server room? Feel free to PM me about it, I"m in the same field.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

I want to put a surge actually, I just want to find an inline one, all the ones seem to simply rely on the fact that electricity takes the path of least resistance, it does not actually cut off power. So some of the surge will still make it to the equipment. Do they make inline ones that work like the power bars? If there's a surge it will trip, cutting all power to the panel. That's what I'd like to put. 

That room will have it's own hvac, basically I will suck air from the crawlspace under the garage (there's zero air circulation there, so it will kill two birds with one stone) and it will then be pushed into the cold aisle. The hot isle will have air sucked out and put somewhere else in the house that has an air path to the garage crawlspace. I might just put it in the main crawlspace. The entrance to the other crawlspace is at the other end. 

I may also make this air go through a HRV type system so I recycle the air but retain the heat. In summer it may bypass the HRV if the outside air is cooler than inside. This will be controlled by an arduino board and several dampers. Wont be doing the hvac this year though, but the two outside vents are installed so if I do end up wanting to do it throughout the year, at least they're there. The main reason for the HRV would be to ensure that I'm always exhausting the hot aisle air outside, as it may contain a small amount of hydrogen from the batteries charging.

This stuff mostly just runs stuff around the house. Home automation server, file server, VM server etc... I plan to put some upgrades though, I want more VM power so I can start playing around in more serious lab environments and keep my skills up to par. The last version of Windows I touched was XP and server 2003 so I'll want to learn the latest ones to stay ahead in case I lose my job and need to be job searching. Mostly, this is just hobby stuff. I do lot of coding as well and it requires some test environments, which I can do with VMs.


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## hyunelan2 (Aug 14, 2007)

Red Squirrel said:


> This stuff mostly just runs stuff around the house. Home automation server, file server, VM server etc... I plan to put some upgrades though, I want more VM power so I can start playing around in more serious lab environments and keep my skills up to par.


It seems pretty-robust and overkill just for those things, but most of the things "we" [people on this site] do is for the fun of "because I can," not always necessity.



> The last version of Windows I touched was XP and server 2003 so I'll want to learn the latest ones to stay ahead in case I lose my job and need to be job searching. Mostly, this is just hobby stuff. I do lot of coding as well and it requires some test environments, which I can do with VMs.


Get ready to be confused. Moving to Windows 8.1+ with having skipped over Vista and 7 will be more than slightly frustrating. It all seems to operate in the same way, but is different enough to make it take forever to do something. With XP support ending in April, just about every company is trying to be off the XP/2003 platform before support officially ends. My systems are all W7/2008R2, and I'm still confused by 8.1 and Server 2012.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah I like to go overkill with stuff. Even debating on running a couple 30A 120/240 twistlock plugs now. Will be hard to do so in the future if I start to load equipment in that rack. 


I did play slightly with Vista/7/8 and slightly with server 2008. Definitely lots of changes. 8 is a huge joke too. Server 2012 is also a joke from what heard, Metro, on a server?!? MS and Rob Ford have some things in common. They're both on crack. :laughing:


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

And the paint is done!

Some spots could use a touch up though, but I'll leave that for the end, if I feel like it.  Need to get a small paintbrush for some of those. 






Side:



Back:










Tomorrow I should be good to install the two PDUs and start on the DC wiring. Running a full backup of my server environment right now to prep for the shut down when I move the inverter-charger. The main server is kinda sketchy when it comes to being shut down, it usually wont come back up on it's own without replacing a couple drives. Once this basement project is settled I will want to start looking at migrating over to my new storage box. I should have enough UPS capacity for it and the extra batteries will make up for the extra load in terms of run time. 

The big thing too is now I'll be able to organize the cables better, that will be another project for later, but I'll do the power right away as to avoid having to shut down the main server again. 

The board above the file cabinet will have the power meter for the UPS, as well as any misc button/displays I choose to add in the future. I'm also going to get two 100a battery switches so I can isolate the batteries for maintenance. I'll have two banks basically, so I can take one offline and pull the batteries out to maintain. Because of how tight they will fit in the shelves I don't think I'll be able to maintain them in place. 

Still need to decide what to do about the acid mitigation, those trays are kinda pricy. Might go with battery boxes, I'll have to buy 4 of them and make sure they fit properly. Not really that worried about a leak, these batteries are designed to be bounced around in boats and RVs, but I figure better safe than sorry.


As for the rest of the basement I just have a small section of dricore left, once I'm done with the server stuff I'll cleanup all the junk I have lying around from working on the server stuff, and finish it off and then clean up and it will more or less complete this project for now. Next year or when I have the money I'll get it spray foamed and drywalled. At some point probably install a real floor too. Was going to paint/varnish the dricore but think I'll just leave it as is and put a proper floor later.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Another update on the server room.

I have a small chunk of dricore to do and I'll be "done" this project. The rest will be another phase that I'll do later. Need to save up more cash. I have some cleaning up to do but everything is more or less done in the server room. The inverter-charger has been moved to it's new and permanent location. 

Both battery banks online:





Inverter in the new rack:



Power cable management done and everything plugged into proper PDU:





Full view:



Future plan is to add hvac to that room to properly vent out hydrogen from the batteries. I have a hydrogen sensor and I really don't think I'm producing enough to be an issue (4 12v 100ah batteries total) but better safe than sorry. The room will also be sealed up and insulated once the hvac is added, to keep the noise in.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Between taking a break around Christmas, and just generally having lot of work hours, took me a while to get started again, but I'm finally done all of the dricore. 






Tomorrow I'm going to clean everything up and reorganize tools etc and put shelves back up. Will also tapcon the perimeter and any other areas that are too bouncy. 

This mostly completes this phase. The ultamate goal was rough in, and a proper walkable surface that does not turn my socks black, so that has been achieved. I have no immediate plans for what I do next, but probably electrical and spray foam. Probably next year some time. I have other projects I want to move on to for now.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Today I just finished up fastning the drycore in the spots that are bouncy. I was frustingly using tapcons (those things are such a pain) and even with my new impact drill, it's a pain since I'd say 2/3 of them just break half way through.

Then I decided to try a technique that a guy at Home Depot told me about. I was skeptical, but it works!

Drill a hole like you normally would, take a few pieces of metal wire (I was using 2) and stick them in the hole, then put in a framing nail, and hammer it in! It totally works! From now on this is what I'm doing whenever I have to fasten something to concrete, where a powder actuated hammer may not be viable.

This pretty much completes this phase, I will move on to other projects now, and continue on this in a year or so. I'd say the worse is done though, the rest is mostly finishing. I may actually get some stuff done by a contractor, such as the drywall and plastering, just so it goes faster.


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## hyunelan2 (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm surprised you had issues with the Tapcons. I never had problems with them when I did my basement over the past 2 years. As long as I drilled the hole deep enough they went right in. I used my DeWalt hammer drill to make the hole (using provided Tapcon bit), and my little 13v corldess Hitachi impact driver to set the 3" Tapcons home.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

Oh wow, when I used my dewalt hammer drill it would take like 5-10 minutes per hole, was brutal. The bit would often start to loosen as well so I was always having to retighten the chuck. Bought a Bosh Bulldog with SDS bit and it was about 1-2 sec per hole. Best drill purchase ever. I only used it for a few jobs, but those few jobs took 1/10 of the time it would have normally taken. I'd drill as far as the bit can go (about an inch more than the tapcon). The tapcons had about a 2/3 failure rate. When I used a regular drill to drive them often it would just stop half way and cause the drill to strip the head. I bought an impact, it worked better, but then instead of staying stuck, they just break. 

The nails + wire method worked incredibly well, I wish I had tried that from the very beginning! I bent a nail by accident and tried to pull it out, and was unable to, so it is a very strong fit too.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Looking good!!


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## csmurray1 (Feb 23, 2014)

nice work


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