# Basement Renovation Question



## KUIPORNG

Hi everyone,

I intend to revnovate my basement in my 2 years old new house. I have a few questions would like to seek advice:

Question 1:

There are already insulation done on it on the upper part of the basement wall throughout. My question is "Should I tear down all these insulation before framing and put back the insulation after framing, or should I frame on top of these insulation which mean I have to lose a couple of inches of space in the length of all outside wall". 

Question 2:

There are cracks on the floor and one crack on the wall, all these cracks do not leak, should I do some special treatment to these non-leaking crack such as fill them up with somthing before renovating.

Question 3:

As my house is kind of new, the builder put some beams on the ceiling prependicular to the joists, I guess they try to make sure the joists do not shift in positioning. but these beams will make the ceiling uneven and difficult to put drywall on and it does not make much sense to build soffet against these beams as they seems not serve much purposes. Can I say it is safe to just remove these beams?

Any advice to any of above question is greatly appreciated. I may have more questions down the road of this project.

Patrick


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## Bonus

1- can you describe this situation a liitle more? How high do the concrete walls go? Is the insulation you're referring to between the studs or what?

2-You could fill them, but I wouldn't worry about it.

3-These beams probably hold your house up, what makes you think they aren't serving any purpose? How big are the joists on them and how far are they spanning? Don't remove them without an engineer telling you it's ok. (On paper, signed and stamped)


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## KUIPORNG

*more explanation*

the insulation is half way on the upper part of a 8' wall. There is no stud anywhere, the builder just nail the insulation onto the concret wall using big plastic sheets.

the beam add prependicular to the joists are 2x4 type and they running in the middle of the ceiling. they are constructed quite nasty with some nails fail to hold up and some part already falling... It looks to me these 4x8 beams just used to ensure the joist does not shift, there are also those small cross bars in between joists which does not affect the ceiling being even, but these beams making the ceiling not being even.... you probably right that I should consult some experience engineer/contractor before doing anything for them... I was hoping this is kind of common things people in this forum will know and could give quick answer...

Anyhow, thanks for replying...


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## Bonus

Ok, so the full height of the wall is concrete and the insulation is only applied above grade? That's above ground level outside? I would take the insulation down, frame up walls, or shoot some 2x2's onto the concrete wall, then insuate between them, vapour barrier, and then drywall. Use pressure treated wood anywhere it will be in contact with concrete.

I feel real certain that those beams are holding your house up...


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## MinConst

I don't like shooting holes in foundations or floors. I like to build a new walls free standing from floor to joists. Using construction adhesive against the floor and shimming tight to the joists. You can add your insulation to the below grade section. You can also us a couple tap cons per wall section into the floor. PT 2xs on the bottom plate of the new walls are all thats needed.
We use to build the way bonus mentioned but throughout the years have seen many cracked walls with all those holes in the foundation. No offense bonus, just m opinion.


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## KUIPORNG

*follow up*

Thanks for the advice Bonus and Minconst. I did in fact tear down the insulation last night and glad I did that as I saw one rod hole has sign of leak. although quite minor, but would not known if I didn't tear down the insulation, and after tearing down the insulation, it is easier to build the new framed walls. 

My original intentions is to build walls which are at least half inch away from the concrete wall so there is no contact with the concrete walls and I kind of agree with Minconst that nailing/screwing against concrete wall is not a good idea. I intend to nail plates on the ceiling joists and screw plates on the concrete floor to setup walls. Now that Minconst mentioned somthing about adhesive... I doubts if this is strong enough to hold the plates on the floor. If it does, I am sure would prefer to that approach. Could Minconst or others clarify this more..
. 

Anyhow, this is my first time renovating a basement, and I am doing it after hours starting right now. I will try to share my situations here and hopefully will also get some advices from all of you. 

Thank you


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## KUIPORNG

*Do we ACQ treated bottom plate?*

At homedepot the staff told me I should use regular lumber for the bottom plate by just putting a some sort of plastic sheet underneath, and they do sell such pre-cutted plastic sheets to support his suggestion... I saw my builder did that for the little walls they built in my basement.... This approach for sure save money, as ACQ wood cost much more. I read from book though they suggest to used ACQ treated wood and said this is according to code. I kind of leaning towards ACQ but would like to see anyone has a different opinion. It also makes me feel those people in Homedepot sometimes do not give good suggestions... and some of them do not really know...


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## MinConst

Nothing against the people at the box stores but they don't always give the best advice. Go with the PT for your bottom plates. The cost isn't that much different and you are talking about your house. Plastic sheeting is fine for dampness permeating up from the slab but and water that may find its way to the floor will over run the plastic ans soak into the plate. Rot will then begin. It is just insurance to use PT and should be done. Remember toy use the correct fasteners for the bottom plate as ACQ eats allot of material.
As for the walls themselves. As I said before build them tight and use liquid nails heavy duty construction adhesive on the floor. A couple tapcon screws per 10' will suffice. I leave an inch of the block to allow circulation. You also want to deal with the floor. I recommend Dricore. But there are other brands that are equal.
Good luck this will take a long time doing it in your free time.


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## KUIPORNG

*Should we need to apply a permit for renovating basement?*

Thanks for the excellance advice. MinConst. Can you explain more details what do you mean by "leave 1 inch of the block". I don't think I will use Dricore flooring due to the cost involve. My basement seems OK in terms of humidity so far. 

Another question. Can anyone tells me the Pos and Cons of applying a permit for renovating the basement. I live in Toronto. Does anyone have any opinion on this. My major concerns are "the hassel" and "property tax" if informing the goveronment regarding renovation of basement....


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## Bonus

No offense taken Min, I got no problem with either of your suggestions, leaving a 1" space between the stud wall and the concrete walls for air circulation? Fine if you can afford the space. I've never had a problem shooting, occasional cratering, but don't have an issue with glue either. Kui, don't do the plastic under the plate trick, use pt. is my advice.


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## DecksEtc

KUIPORNG said:


> Thanks for the excellance advice. MinConst. Can you explain more details what do you mean by "leave 1 inch of the block". I don't think I will use Dricore flooring due to the cost involve. My basement seems OK in terms of humidity so far.
> 
> Another question. Can anyone tells me the Pos and Cons of applying a permit for renovating the basement. I live in Toronto. Does anyone have any opinion on this. My major concerns are "the hassel" and "property tax" if informing the goveronment regarding renovation of basement....


Technically, you are supposed to have a permit. It's important to ensure the electrical and plumbing are done to code. You could have trouble with your insurance should the unthinkable happen and you have a fire. The insurance company could NOT pay if you didn't have the electrical pass inspection.

Does everyone get a permit when they finish their basement? No. Should they? Yes. There are hassles as you have to wait/stop work to wait for inspectors.


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## KUIPORNG

*Wood studs/plates or Metal studs/plates*

Hi Everyone,

I heard from someone that using metal studs/plates to build the walls on the basement is better/easier than using wood. Could anyone give some opinion on this. Also, can it use metal studs to build the soffit also besides walls.


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## KUIPORNG

*Update on the process*

I would like to provide some update on my basement renovation process: I have made some changes to my initial ideas:

1. I used some outside leak prevention sheet made of strong pastic with little circular small cylinder everywhere then put big 4X8 $11 wood sheet on it. This achieve the similar effect as Dricore at approx. 1/4 of the cost. 
2. I decide to build Steel frame walls from majority of the walls except closet inner walls as I need wood to support shelf inside.
3. I decide to lay a black paper type of sheet against the concret walls before setting up studs and insulation.

These are the plan so far... I will keep posting updates on my basement renovation adventure. If you see some Opps, shouldn't do that stuff, please let me know... Thank You.


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## KUIPORNG

*More Update*

I have finished installing the flooring and set up some walls as planned in above message. I would like to let anyone who intend to do basement know: using steel stud and plates make a lot of sense: it is so much easier to install than wood and as all walls in basement you are going to install is not load bearing, using steel is the perfect solution. In some ocasions when you need to use wood as I would use for doors frame and inside closets, you can still use steel plates, as the 2x4 wood stud seat in the steel plates perfectly, just fit. you don't need to do toe nailing and save a lot of money buying the framing gun, compressor,..All the tools you need is a couple of powerful drills. I intend to build the soffit with steel as well and will let you know how it goes. 

One more thing I didn't mentioned above, I lay a piece of black paper, those they use in roofing, on the concret walls before laying out studs as this separate the concret with those insulation material. I think this is a good idea too, those black paper is quite cheap.


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## KUIPORNG

*Drywall installation questions*

Now that I am moving smoothly in setting up the frame. I expect the drywalling stage may come pretty soon. I would like to get some answers from any of you regarding drywall installation questions, please help if you could:

Q1: Do I need to purchase a drywall screwgun?
I knew good tool make a different, but on a limited budget, I want to get away if I could, can I used a regular 18V drill plus a depth control kit from HomeDepot I saw to achieve the same result of an expensive drywall screwgun? Please advice

Q2: Is renting a drywall lifting tool a good idea and approx. how much and where to rent it?
I knew I can look this up myself but want to save some time if you know the answer already, as I am a one man installer so far, do you think it is a good idea to rent those monster turning the wheel and lift type equipment to lift the drywall in place? If yes, approx how much it cost to rent it do you know.

Q3: and other dump question, Do you know any places which could deliver drywalls right down to your basement with a reasonable charge, of course? Or you think I should just pay for a mover to do this.


This drywall stuff is one of the biggest question mark to me so far as I am on my own on this project and try to get away the hassel of getting someone to help if possible.


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## MinConst

1. You don't need to purchase a gun. Use your screw gun. Those depth gages they sell are crap in my opinion. You will get the feel of it. Just bury the head of the screw but stop before you puncture the paper face.
2. A drywall lifting tool? For ceilings or walls. You might like one if your doing the ceilings. As for the walls lift it yourself. It is easier and quicker.
3. I generally hire a couple young guys to carry rock when its more than a few sheets. 20 somethings can carry enough for a basement in a couple hours with a break even.
Everyone needs help sometimes.


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## DecksEtc

KUIPORNG said:


> Now that I am moving smoothly in setting up the frame. I expect the drywalling stage may come pretty soon. I would like to get some answers from any of you regarding drywall installation questions, please help if you could:
> 
> Q1: Do I need to purchase a drywall screwgun?
> I knew good tool make a different, but on a limited budget, I want to get away if I could, can I used a regular 18V drill plus a depth control kit from HomeDepot I saw to achieve the same result of an expensive drywall screwgun? Please advice
> 
> Q2: Is renting a drywall lifting tool a good idea and approx. how much and where to rent it?
> I knew I can look this up myself but want to save some time if you know the answer already, as I am a one man installer so far, do you think it is a good idea to rent those monster turning the wheel and lift type equipment to lift the drywall in place? If yes, approx how much it cost to rent it do you know.
> 
> Q3: and other dump question, Do you know any places which could deliver drywalls right down to your basement with a reasonable charge, of course? Or you think I should just pay for a mover to do this.
> 
> 
> This drywall stuff is one of the biggest question mark to me so far as I am on my own on this project and try to get away the hassel of getting someone to help if possible.


Kuiporng,

1. Like Min said, you don't need a drywall gun, especially if your just doing your own basement. Personally, I prefer using a dimpler (the attachment for your drill - about $5).

2. I can't tell you how much to rent one of those lifts, I've always had an extra hand when I've needed it.

3. Pretty much anyone that delivers drywall gives you what they call "curbside delivery". You'll be lucky to get them to even put it in your garage.

Re: #'s 2 & 3, your best bet is to hire someone with a bit of experience to help you out. Hopefully, I won't get in trouble for posting this (I hope not/should not since I've been around here awhile) - I have a lot of experience in renovations and hanging drywall and could probably help you out. My contact info is in my profile - feel free to call me if you'd like.


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## jproffer

One concern I have: Steel studs on the ceiling. It was my understanding that those steel studs were intended for use vertically ONLY, as their strength was in the vertical plane ONLY, but that could be completely wrong too. Anyone heard or know for sure...or have tried it and it worked...didn't work...anything?


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## KUIPORNG

*Thank you for the advice and ...*

Thanks for the advice MiniConst and Terry. I will probably call you Terry when I am at the drywall stage, thanks for offering your service. 

For Jproffer, I don't really use steel to support the ceiling, you are right, the steel is kind of for vertical walls only. The ceiling drywall still go to the joists of the house mainly, on cases there is soffit, it will go to the steel , but those are normally small area and the steel should be able to substain the weight. for Large drywall ceiling, it goes to wood.

Jproffer do arise me to ask one question though, may be any of you can help, how about vertical walls around the bathroom/laundryroom, can those use steel studs?, I don't know if there are reasons such as water make steel rust, too much weight for the pipes ...etc. making using wood studs more suitable, I would go for wood unless someone tell me steel is ok for that too.

Thanks everyone for being my resource of help.


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## jproffer

I've never used the steel for anything...wall or ceiling, so take my concerns with a grain of salt because I truly don't know for sure. Just seems to me (me...the guy that's never used them before ) that steel would give if layed out like that. On the other hand, even though I've never used them, I have picked one up a time or two and individually they seem very flimsy. Hopefully (I'm assuming since everyone raves about them) they stiffen up when they're all together.

As for bathrooms and laundryroom. Water rusts steel ....water rots wood, so either way eventually deterioration is happening (but I think those steels are galvanized....look like it anyway). I would go ahead and use them in any wall you wanted to.


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## KUIPORNG

*Anyone use insta-back products?*

from Prest-On, I saw their description in their website, seems quite neat which solve problem for drywalls ending where there is no stud. Eliminate to cut dryall. Their other products don't know if that useful. Anyone has any experience to share?


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## KUIPORNG

*Some tips for DIY first timer :*

This message is for those who like me, enjoy doing things himself/herself but quite inexperience, I have learned some tips after renovating the basement for 3 weeks and would like to share with you before I forget:

- use steel plate and wood stud, this is the best way to construct the basement frame: economical, regid, and easy to construct.
- since using steel means you mainly use screws rather than a hammer, therefore, invest on a powerful screw gun is worth it, as it will make your job so much faster.
- concret screws, make sure you get the right length, not too long, I used 2 1/4 which should have been 1 3/4, the longer does not necessary make the fastening more strength, but definitely make you drill 3 times more effort. I think as long as the screw 1" below the concret, it is good enough.
- you need to replace the concrete screw bits quite often, for me, I need to use over 10 bits. It is not worth to use an old bit and trying to use your effort/time to make up for the worn out bit. replace a new one will make you 5 times faster/easier.
- use long philp screw bit and insert directly to the drill for driving screws, do not use extension, it makes a hell lot different as the bit vibrate a bit with extension and the driving self drilling screw just doesn't work well.
- get a telescope type extenable stick, like those cleaning windows, use it to measure the height of the floor to ceiling for setting up cutting studs, save a lot of eye effort and more accurate than looking at the tape measure, best to get the stick can extend up to 8' if not possible, use a 2x4 fix length block at the bottom as base for measurement, like I did.
- get three drills, one corded hammer drill, one cordless 18v drill, one corded or cordless regular drill, so that you don't need to change bits all the time. the hammer drill is for the floor, the 18v drill is for powerdrive screws, the regular drill is for bit to cut through metal before using the hammer drill (so that you don't damage the concret bit and need to replace all the time), also for pilot hole sometimes.
- self drilling screws, it is dead important, don't use non-self drilling ones, I got the first box wrong the first time and waste me a lot of time and get a lot of frustrations.
- If you use steel studs or plates like I do, don't follow the book for building as they are meant for wood, no need to draw those 16" lines, cross on the plate...etc., it is kind of quite different in one sense, you got a lot of flessibility with steel, and making mistakes is no big deal with steel, just unscrew and screw again... this is different from wood, which you have to pull the nails, so mistake is much less forgiven with wood.
- I am getting a metal saw tonight, cutting steel will make your hand very painful after too many cuts, will let you go how it is going.
- when drilling holes on the concrete for the screws, use the drill bit that come with the screws and the depth can be set at the level where the bit with drilling pattern just totally go inside the floor, no more or no less. This is the best depth.
Also, use 18V drill to drive in the screws, do not over power by using a Dewalt drywall screw gun etc., the bit will break and you cannot get a sense how tight the screws easily.

Framing Bathroom:
Always purchase the shower unit first before framing, when framing for the corner of the shower unit, do not put two studs touch each other at corner walls. Do not screwed the base to the frame, do it at the end, but keep dry fitting it to ensure no surprise not fitting... Only wood studs can be used for washroom, steel studs not a good idea and don't know if it will work, frame all four walls of the bathroom with wood.

Cutting heat supply trunk:
It is not as difficult as I originally thought, and the time of doing the pipe connection and cutting an intake hole is not that long, I did three vents pipe from trunk to floor level and 2 return airs connection in approx one day. I find using the manual cutter is very difficult, using the angle grinder is the easiest but also the most scariest because of the fire work. Using a jigsaw is the safest and pretty fast, except it is kind of hard to use it in tight spot... I used combination of angle grinder, jig saw and manual cutter. I would think if without angle grinder, I would not be able to do it or do it very slow...

Even you use wood studs, do not use wood plate, use steel track, it is so much easier.

Purchasing Tools and Materials

Try to purchase used/new tools from online auction. It save you a lot of money, got to do this sooner than later to eliminate wait time. Some materials can also be purchased online, but this is very minimum. 

Drain and Supply Water pipes


go back to the drain pipes and supply pipes. I find the drain pipe is not much problem and only challenge is TEE into the existing pipe, you need to cut the length out in exact right length, too short, it couldn't get in, too much, you are in big trouble because you will leave gap... I kind of cut too little and then need to trim more, and trim more... and it was done finally anyway.

for supply pipes... if you are the first timer like me, please use pre-soldered pipe parts + soldering, it just increase your confident that there is no leak, although I used some parts which are not pre-soldered and still not leak... it almost a perfect job except I made a big mistake... I installed the shower unit 90 degree off, that means in-take becomes out-take and vice versa, this is all because I didn't read the manual careful enough, instead I looked at the structure, it has a printed word "UP" and I used it as a guidence, and in fact it is dead wrong, I don't know why they print a big word "UP" there to mislead people,... for that, I need to fix the structure by cutting out some pipes and put in couplers. Teeing into existing lines still the big challenge with similar reason of the drain pipes, you need to cut the right length, I found out soldering is in fact less trouble, although I worried most, I didn't encountered a leak due to wrong soldering yet... Another tip: buy the smallest pipe cutter possible, I made the mistake went for the best looking one, and it is not useful to cut existing pipes due to limited space, I end up require to use rotary tool to do that, so rotary tool is also very useful for tight spot... forget about hand saw, it just too difficult... and ware gloves, I got burn with a hot solder in one of my figure because of rushing into trying the first soldering experience. Also, use a metal plate as sheild for things behind the pipes, don't purchase the expensive HD protecting cloth, somthing like $30 plus tax...Also, buy a $3 long mouth lighter, it is money well spent, rather than using matches or regular lighter... Mark all edges with marker on all connection when you dry fitting, then you know how depth you insert the pipes when you doing the actual fitting. Fitting 90 degree or 45 degree albrow is a real challenge, in fact, I advice don't bother dry fitting them, they are so difficult to fit, and pull out, just fit them and solder them... Make sure you spend the money on the Wrench, it is impossible to push/pull those albrow from the pipes bare hand, I did one with the help of my foot, then I purchased the wench and found out it could have been so much easier...

for threaded joins, make sure you tight it up, it is very trouble to fix later on when everything is all set, and threaded joins are the easiest ones to have leak according to my experience.

will keep you up to date in the future.


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## KUIPORNG

*Tools to have for renovation of basements*

I will keep this message up to date, instead of keep posting new one, so come back to view this particular message time to time, these are the tools I found them very useful so far apart from those regular one like hammer(the more important one list first):
- Books (different types, for framing, dry wall, electrical...etc.) money well invest, you will never waste money on knowledge. You kind of need a book of each type of job, I got one for the basement as a whole, one for plumbing, one for electrical, one for tiling, one for drywalling... but may be you can avoid doing what I did, instead, go to library and search for all books for one subject and borrow all of them, I did that for the plumbing and surprisely, found out each book did got somthing good about somthing, no single book got everything I want... so the library is really good resource for this.
- drywall drill (I got a used Dewalt drywall drill lastnight, it is so powerful, making me change the point of view on the 18v, this one should be used mainly instead, the 18v is now becomes my secondary drill driver and I position this tool to be more important than the 18v drill).
- metal cutter(manual)
- hammer drill
- metal saw (to cut so many steels, you need this if you still want to play badminton like I do.)
- 18v drill 
- chop meter saw
- jig saw
- small circular saw
- T-Jak type jak, got one from HD, much cheaper.
- long level ruler
- telescope stick (very useful)
- clamps (different types), remember, cheaper one may serve better.
- regular corded drill
- compact cordless drill driver for screw driving in tight locations.
- circular saw
- angle grinder
- laser level
- rotary tool with right angle attachment, for drilling pilot hole in tight location.
- Right angle drill, I don't have one, but think would be nice if I have one.
- those stylish gloves(not those clumsy total leather one, but those mixed with nylon and leather), not only they stylish, also very useful to handle steel.
- ear sound protection
- eye protection gogle
- right angle big ruler
- t shaped big ruler


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## KUIPORNG

*Permit application information*

I would also like to provide home owner information regarding permit application:

- as homeowner, you can apply permit yourself, if you hire a contractor and he apply the permit on behalf of you, he must process certain registration/license...etc. so apply it yourself is the best.

- apply the permit and your property tax will increase, but not by much, for a 15000 renovation, is approx 160 per year increase. You got peace of mind, I will do it for that money.

- you get the permit approx 10 days(they say), but the time for you to come up with a solid blue print, take whatever long, then you build then they inspect...

- you need to provide drawing on the basement to them only, not the whole house...

Anyhow, I think apply a permit is better than not, because, strictly speaking, it is against the law not to.

Now that I have involved in appling the permit, I would like to give you more update, there is really good and bad, to be fair, the bad part is really time and hassle, for me, it is better because I am close by the city hall and can visit them as often as I can. The good part is they really tells you a lot you don't know, especially if you are not in the building industry. Some of the restrictions are in fact good for your construction, is for your own benefiicial... But again, the time and hassle is the price you need to pay. But the initial consultation is free, as they won't accept your application until they see an acceptable blue print, therefore, even if you really don't want to apply for a permit, you should at least go to the stage where they are ready to accept your application as by then, you got a lot of good advice from them...

I got my permit this morning, approx after 8 business day of submit the application, on it there are two surprise for me : it requires me to use 5" pipe for bathroom exhausted fan and dryer exhaust. I thought 4" is fine originally, may be it is the size of my bathroom or whatever reason, instead of trying to agrue with them, I will probably use their requirement to avoid hassle. I ended up asking the department why 5" instead of 4", they told me 5" for the fan is the code, but I can use 4" for the dryer... I am glad that I asked because at least I can use 4" for the dryer, you do the math 4" is 2/3 of the size of a 5" making everything easier...

another surprise is that return air has to be at the lower wall level, I thought I can simply open a vent from the ceiling metal sheet to save some hassle, looks like this idea doesn't fly anymore.

before you submit your permit, make sure your layout is firm, I tried to move the dryer from one location to another, and the staff said I need a revision application which cost $60, I didn't do it as I think such a small thing the inspector will let it go... but this remind me you should very firm on your layout design before submitting the application to save on revision fee.

you do not need very details such as how you wire electricity on the diagram, but other details such as heat vent location, wall dimension..etc. you need the details...


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## bob the builder

The diary of 
KUIPORNG


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## KUIPORNG

*Heat bring down to the ground level, Heard of it?*

Our local code requires to bring the heat down to the floor level for basement renovation. Have you people heard of this, and how difficult the job it is to do that. please advice. I suppose is some cutting hole on the heat pipes and connecting with all sort of heat pipes...etc.

This restriction is now seems less scarely to be as after I went back to the basement and check my heat pipes and framwork done around them already, and it seems ok to do the requirement. I also look up the book on how to cut hole ...etc. and it does not seem such a big job...

I got a reply from the government, the person in charge, in fact send me a copy of the part of the law describing this situation. Basically, it requires you to install the heat vent within 6" of the floor level close to the exterior wall.


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## KUIPORNG

*Plumbing question*

My basement has a three pieces rough in by the builder, I saw a h shape pipes from the floor which extend all the way to the ceiling, I think this is the vent stack and for the bathroom sink to connect to. I would like to know if we can connect the wash machine directly to this h shape pipes for washmachine draining water, is this against the code as this mean the wash machine and the sink sharing the same drain pipe and vent. Another way is to get the vent from the h shape pipe but have the wash machine drain to another adjacent drain pipe which run vertically from the floor to the ceiling which I am not sure what is it for. Any advice is appreciated.

After thinking about it more, I think I will go with the second approach. drain the wash machine to a near by drain and get the vent from the vent stack of the three piece rough in. I think that make sense and comply with the code. Please if you see any problem with that let me know, I am going to do it myself as it seems a easy job. If the inspector say there is somthing wrong with my work, I then will hire a plumber....


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## KUIPORNG

*After talking with the permit staff*

Talked to the permit examiner, he is a nice gentleman. Learn these from him:

- need to make sure return air vent on outside wall of the furnance room. It is illegal not to do so, I can understand why. 
- need to make sure there is sufficient combusion air for the furnance room, therefore, need to open up a window kind of vent on the wall of the furance room for breathing air.
- probably need to cut cermant on bathroom floor if need to install washer, need to confirm with plumber....


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## KUIPORNG

*More update on plumbing/bathroom*

I got the plumbing idea done with the help of the permit staff, I can use the same drain for the bathroom sink for the washer, sharing the same P-trap, I didn't know I can do that, but this definitely save me a lot of headache. and the pipe connection is as easiest as it could be, on the other hand, got a quote from a toronto.com plumbing company, he said cost about 8k to 10k to do a complete bathroom. Hearing that, I will do it myself, even I am the first timer, I cannot afford to spend that on a bathroom alone. I did tile my kitchen before succesfully, therefore, will continue go for the DIY approach, well, may be until my wife stop me.. she is in US right now and I got the whole freedom of doing everything for 3 more weeks...

After more investigation, I found out sharing the same P-trap for both wash machine and basin is not as good as opening up a tree below the basin but share the same drain. But this is kind of different from what the city examinier suggest, therefore, kind of still confuse in this issue.


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## KUIPORNG

*Is the builder so nice setting up the return air for me*

I discovered a bit yesterday when looking at the ceiling of the basement, I saw metal sheet covering two rows of joists extending out from the return air tank. Although the return air tank already have a vent open on it, I wonder what these metal sheet is for, Would it be the builder so nice that they expect us to surround the furnish when renovating and then we can just open a vent from these metal sheet on the ceiling and cover the existing vent inside the furnish room and the new supply air will draw from outside the mechanic room.

Would this be so nice and easy and thoughtful from the builder, anyone here can answer me.... 

I think I might go to ask the builder when I have time, but they probably wondering what I am doing as the warantee period still have 4 months to expire....

Anyhow, hope someone can share some knowledge here....

I suppose I can put a piece of small tissue on one of the small opening on the metal sheet see if it attach the tissue to confirm if it is indeed connect to the return air tank. Would this make sense? or there are other way to test...

The tissue method doesn't work well, so instead, I remove the vent from the return air trunk and take a peek inside and does found out there is an opening for from the trunk to the metal sheet, this confirm the metal sheet is indeed connect to the return air trunk, this save me considerable amount of work, how thoughtful the builder is. It is kind of a waste not to renovate the basement when the builder has the mindset you are going to renovate it when building the house.


----------



## Aceinstaller

Hey kuiporng,

where are you from?

you have so many questions that my head is spinning. 

The best advice that I think that I can give you is to approach one question at a time. then I would suggest going to a local home improvement store and picking up a book that best suits your questions. in this case, you might need a few of them.

Then after a little bit of research, you can come back with more specific questions, and i'll do my best to give you some friendly advice.


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## KUIPORNG

*Thanks ACE Installer*

Hi ACE Installer,

You are right, I have too many questions, and many of those previous questions are already obsolete. I should go back and remove them. I am from Toronto. I did purchase at least 4 books for my basement project. I ask question just when it come up, later I found the answers and forget to remove them or the question is not relevant anymore. Sorry for having your head spin because of that.

I am still at the framing stage but sometimes got nervous when thinking about the plumbing stage and electricity stage which will come up soon. As my wife in US keep saying she want everything done when she came back in a short time, she need me help looking after the babies.

Anyhow, I will ask more questions in the future when I go to those other challenging stages.

Thanks again.


----------



## bob the builder

KUIPORNG said:


> Hi ACE Installer,
> 
> You are right, I have too many questions, and many of those previous questions are already obsolete. I should go back and remove them. I am from Toronto. I did purchase at least 4 books for my basement project. I ask question just when it come up, later I found the answers and forget to remove them or the question is not relevant anymore. Sorry for having your head spin because of that.
> 
> I am still at the framing stage but sometimes got nervous when thinking about the plumbing stage and electricity stage which will come up soon. As my wife in US keep saying she want everything done when she came back in a short time, she need me help looking after the babies.
> 
> Anyhow, I will ask more questions in the future when I go to those other challenging stages.
> 
> Thanks again.


At your pace you'll be done in 3 more months.


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## KUIPORNG

*Installing Shower Unit*

I intend to install the shower unit which is the whole thing from HD. I saw one which is compact size. which can fit my limited space. The issue is the drain hole is not align with the rough in drain. What I have in mind is this, please correct me if you think I am wrong, I didn't see book recommend doing this, but I am thinking this is the only way if I don't want to use the shower base linear approach:

redirect the drain pipe to a few inches using albows, then raise the platform by a few inches.

my shower measurement is kind of odd, it can allow 34 inches width shower unit but the drain pipe must be 12" from north and 12" from east, I don't think any unit will have this type of drain hole alignment, but if you happen to know one. Please let me know where to get it.

After talking with people, I got the answer that I should break the concrete and relocate the drain instead of trying to move the pipe above the trap. Well, if this is what I have to do, I will look into how to do that. For JMGP, the book you mentioned is exactly what I bought, but I think it didn't mentioned this shower question I am asking... It is a good book, but miss details in some area...


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## JMGP

www.taunton.com buy the book called "Remodeling a Basement" 

May be at Borders or another book store too... $ 19.95

Full of ALL the information you need to finish a basement.....Step x Step.....


Joe


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## Aceinstaller

Kuiporn

I would listen to the guys that explained to break up the concrete and move the rough pluming under the slab to the appropriate position. Otherwise I would move my framing walls to the proper locations to allow for the drain to be in the location needed for the tub that you purchased. Although if you go to the plumbing supply house, it might be possible to find a tub floor that has an offset drain in the 12" x 12" location.


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## KUIPORNG

*Did install the shower base this weekend*

Thanks ACEInstaller, this is why it is important to ask dump question in order not to make major mistakes. I did end up able to find a shower unit just barefit my drain plan. And did install the frame around it this weekend and cut the drain pipe properly. I did not need to cut the concrete as I am lucky enough to find the last shower unit and purchased it in HD which has just the layout fit in my layout, I did need to turn the base 10 to 15 degree around the corner to allow fitting. 

This is not without any challenge, because of lack of experience, I frame the frame corner with studs, and as experience framer will know, there will never be a perfect 90 degree coner if you put too suds in the corner touching each other, I did that, and end up the base cannot fit in as the base require a perfect 90 degree, I then thought I could trim some wood off using a angle grinder, and hope I dont need to remove the studs and still make it fit. didn't work and I lost quarter inches of studs wood in one of the wall because of that "eager to use the newly bought angle grinder" psycology. I end up have to remove one of the corner stud in order to fit the base.... I am sure an experience framer will not frame one of the corner stud when framing for shower base.... not to mention they don't want to use angle grinder just for the fun of it...

anyhow, now that frame is fine and I am ready to frame the rest of the bathroom.


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## bob the builder

I wonder if you use steel stud in bathroom if it be more dangerous getting electrocuted...mmmmm


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## jproffer

> from Prest-On, I saw their description in their website, seems quite neat which solve problem for drywalls ending where there is no stud. Eliminate to cut dryall. Their other products don't know if that useful. Anyone has any experience to share?


I must have missed this the first time...

Don't buy those things (unless of course you already have). I'm sure they work fine, but so does plywood cut up into 5 or 6 inch strips.


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## KUIPORNG

*more update and duck question*

Thanks for letting me know I don't need to buy those things, use plywood strips instead, I certainly will do that to save money. for Bob the builder, I didn't use steel studs for bathroom. I use wood completely, but use steel tracks. as I don't want to do toe nailing, steel tracks is great even working with wood studs, I installed 3 2x6 studs last night, need to cut hole in middle to accomodate existing pipes, let me tell you 2x6 is really heavy for a 150 lb man like me to handle.... I also got the permit this morning... the information in it is immense, I need to spend quite some time to read it... go to my previous message for permit update info once I finished reading it. I am rush to get it this morning worrying the city talking about strike...

I will do some duct work starting today... the first time I cut duct, hope it is not too difficult, I don't know exactly which way is the best way to cut the steel: use drill then manual cutter, use angle grinder, use rotary tool, use jig saw? well may be I try the manual cutter first see what happen, unless any of your experience guy can give me a good suggestion to start with... I also have another question with this duct thing, I saw them come with those little metal leaves on the lips, do I bend the leaves so that they become 90 degree with the lips or be 0 degree with the lips and stick outside to the supply air trunk. or 90 degree and insert inside the supply air trunk....

Got the answer from the HD guy, gee, I couldn't believe I got A's in high school in Math/Science, it is actually 90 degree goes in then 0 degree fold up when's in, I ask how can we fold it once it feed in, he showed me by putting his hand through the hole... another kind of dump question from an inexperience person....

I did the duct work for one vent, found out angle grinder is the best to give clean, straight cut, if you don't mine fire work going above your head, though, I wore as much protection as possible when doing it, you know, google, ear piece, mask. but should wear a head too for the hair may get burn...


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## KUIPORNG

*drilling 5" holes for exhausted, headache for me*

The permit requires me to drill 5" holes for bath room fan and dryer exhaust. This is kind of surprise me as I originally thought 4" pipe will do the requirement. Now 5" hole, I do some research on internet, looks like you need a very powerful hammer drill and expensive 5" core bit to do this job... cost easily $300 for both drill and the bit alone on the cheap side.... This is quite expensive for two holes. I would look into see if renting the drill from the HD is cheapter, does anyone know how much it costs to hire a professional to drill two 5" holes, I can see the holes should be drill on the brick+wood, I belive that make more sense than drilling on the concrete wall even the concrete is above the ground, well, because I am inexperience, may be even this idea of drilling on the brick + wood is not the best, please let me know your advice. Thank You.

Another thing, my idea of opening up the return air vent from the ceiling metal sheet do not fly as the permit require return air vent at the lower wall location....


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## Mike Swearingen

You can cut circular holes in wood by drawing the 5" circle and drilling a hole large enough inside the edge of the circle for the blade of a rented reciprocating saw blade or jigsaw (depending on thickness of wood). 
You can cut a hole in cinderblock by drilling holes around inside the circle and chipping the hole out with a hammer and chisel.
There's more than one way to do things.
Mike


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## KUIPORNG

*Thanks but the hole place is really a tight spot*

Thanks for your advice, except I have to say, the ceiling in the base ment is really a tight spot, using jigsaw there is too difficult, or even possible, my originally idea is just drill a small bit hole may be 1/4" at the center of the circle to way outside, well may drill a bit bigger to see whats behind the wood to make sure there is no wire/pipes stuff, then the main drilling is done from outside using this center hole, this method is read from a book. I feel more comfortable doing that, provided that I have appropriate equipment. Now it brings to my next question, what sort of hammer drill or even rotary hammer drill we need to drill 5" hole on brick, I mean like 600 Watt, 900 Watt,...etc. anyone with experience of that to share...

Just went to HD to check their rental equipment, it is not too bad, the price depends on the power you want, from $25 to $50 per 4 hours. I am not used to rent equipment, as the feeling of owning is better than the feeling of borrowing... well, this time may need to break the rule as it does seem make more sense to rent in this case.

My wife called from US saying I am spending too much for the basement, I therefore may need to try Mike's approach by drilling many holes to form a circle to avoid spending the money on the expensive drill bit.


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## Aceinstaller

if your wife doesn't want you to spend any more money, I would use a good old hammer and chisel. just be careful not to break too big of a hole in the brick. time and pressure.

I also would recommend that you would be weary of using heavy duty power tools.

past posts such as using grinders in joist bays, are extremely dangerous and are a definate fire hazzard.
read all safety and operating instructions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## KUIPORNG

*Thanks for the advice*

Hi ACEInstaller,

Thanks for your advice, I can tell you are an experience contractor, you are right, the smoke detector went off when I use angle grinder to trim the 2x4 studs... I think using the angle grinder to cut the heat supply trunk is OK though, right, although a lot of fire work generate from metal cutting, but there isn't smoke coming out like when I try to cut wood...


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## KUIPORNG

*combination of wood and steels turn out to be the best*

after framing for the bathroom, I discovered that using wood studs and metal plates to do the basement framing is the best, you kill three birds with one stone: ease of installation, regid structure and economy. I find out screwing into wood, cutting wood... is kind of easier screwing into steels, cutting steels... but the steel plate is much better than wood plates... Also different times you can use small steel sheets to make different angle shapes to attach two woods with screws when nailing is not possible due to tight space.

also framing soffits I would try to use 2" track then 2x2 wood as well. It is because you can build the soffit structure part by part when attaching to the ceiling. I am uncomfortable using the building ladder approach as some variation on height of the object making the ladder useless and all the efforts could be waste or a lot of effort need to spend to fix it.

After thinking about it, I think the metal company won't tell you wood and steel is the best way to build it because they want you to buy more steels, the wood company altogether don't want you to use steel at all so they don't mention that either. but I think after DIY, I conclude wood and steel can be combined and make the work easier.


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## Aceinstaller

Use bow snips to cut your round heating pipe. They look like giant scissors.

Use a pair of red snips to cut circles into the trunk lines.

But, I recommend calling a certified contractor to install your heating. He will make sure that your trunk lines and furnace are the right size to add additional runs for your basement. Without this, you could run into some big problems in comfort throughout your home.

Why in the world would you even be considering using an angle grinder? If that's the only tool that you own to cut metal, then you NEED to hire someone with the tools to complete a job safely and proffesionally.

Quick question,

How many injuries have you sustained in your project so far?


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## KUIPORNG

*Answer to ACEInstaller*

I've been away since my wife just came back from US with the two babies and now my time to work on the project will be much lower than before. Anyhow, to answer ACEInstaller Question, this is my opinion:

- I do not believe anyone need to pay to hire someone to do the heat pipe stuff, to me, it is really the easy part, in terms of size of the pipe, I used 5" pipe (except return air I use 6") which are the same size throughout the house as all other pipes, I don't see any chance of being wrong on this one. All together it takes me approx 3 to 4 hours to setup 4 exhausted vent, two return air holes and pipe, basically the time to spend on heat pipes can be done for sure in one day for the whole basement, whereas for framing, it takes me approx 1 full month. So that is why I see heat pipes is a small job.

- For cutting holes, most of them are square holes, only two circle holes for the return air, for square holes, it mean straight cut, I find the snip cutter is just too difficult to use to make it easy for someone like me, Angle grinder on the other hand, is extremely easy for straight cuts, may be it is dangerous for viewpoints of others, but I think it is not that dangers, those fireworks come out get disappear instantly on the air and didn't catch any damage generally, well, protections can put in surrounding if people worry, but generally this is not really necessary, and you can do it in such a way that the firework go to the opposite direction as your face, so it won't hurt you.

- for the injuries, I got one, by the hammer, on my second finger, as I am a impatient guy. but the injuries is not too bad, if I have not use screws with steels, and use hammer for most of the work, I am sure I will get much more...

- anyhow, I expect to do the two holes drill for the first time this weekend on the brick wall for the vent and dryer, will let you know how it goes... I will use Mike's recommendation to how to do it in earlier post...


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## KUIPORNG

*drilling vent/dryer hole*

I tried the drill hole process a bit last night for a 4" dryer hole, and here is what happen:

I used a 4" hole saw inside to drill on the wood to cut a partial hole as a circle outline for me to work on. I cannot cut through the wood due to the depth of the saw is not enough. I then drill three holes all the way through to outside: one at center and two at the perimeter. I then go outside and take a look. Out of my surprise, these three holes cannot align with a circle, center cannot be center, perimeter cannot be perimeter, this is due to the fact that when I holding the drill it is not level enough, I kind of expect that but not to such degree of misalignment, I then went inside to drill three more holes along the perimeter and trying to hold the drill as level as possible, I am using a cheap $60 bucks hammer drill without level on it. This time I find from outside there are four holes on the perimeter can form quite a circle.

I will drill the circle base on these four holes on Saturday when I can work in daylight.

I just want to say this is not an easy task considering drilling at the top of the ceiling between a wall and and heat trunk and the drill bit has to go across a 110V powerline and telephone line... and you have to raise your hand to hold the drill.... each hole takes you considerable amount of time and effort...

I am trying to think may be it is worth the money to purchase a concrete drill bit and rent the rotary drill from HD.... 

May be one of you can give me some smart insight to improve this process....


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## DecksEtc

KUIPORNG,

This past week I had to drill two 4" holes and one 2" hole through a block foundation from a garage into a basement. The following is how I did it with good results.

Get yourself a 12" long x 1/8" masonry bit for your hammer drill. Draw an outline for the holes(s) you want on the inside and outside of your wall - you'll need to find a common reference point on the inside and outside to measure off of - like a gas line already through the wall. Drill as many 1/8" holes with the masonry bit around the perimeter of the outline for your holes as you can. Then, drill holes in the wood on the inside with a regular wood bit. After you have all the holes drilled, for the wood inside - use a chisel to complete the outline and remove the wood (it doesn't matter if the hole is larger as it will be above the ceiling and won't be seen). For the outside, use a cold chisel and hammer to complete the outline between the holes you have drilled - you'll eventually be able to remove pieces as you complete the hole.

After you've done your holes and run your vent, fill in around the pipe with fiberglass insulation and mix a small amount of concrete to fill the edges around the vent. Also, like the interior, the vent cover has a larger flange around it and will cover the opening should you're hole not be perfect (which it won't).

Good luck!


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## KUIPORNG

*I did it On Saturday*

Thanks for the advice, DesksEtc. I read your post kind of a bit late, after I finished the task. Coincidentally, the process of how I did it is very close to what you suggested, here is what happened:

- It is kind of very important to ensure the inside hole and outside hole coincide with each other, or very close, as, I don't think there can be a perfect fit, but should be very close fit. I tried to ensure that by drawing circle on the inside/outside wall and drill holes either from outside to inside or inside to outside to ensure holes fall in the same perimeter in the inside wall circle/outside wall circle...

- the key is the chisel, here, it plays an unreplaceable role here, I am glad I wasn't be too mean to spend $12 bucks to buy the chisel in HD before I start the job, you know, I almost not doing so thinking as I only used it once, not worth it,...etc, or try to use somthing else to replace it... After doing it, I don't know how it can be replaced....

- also removing the inside wood circle is quite difficult, with hammer, wood chisel, ..etc. for a lengthy time...especially when the hole is larger, with water lines , electric lines, in your ways,... and I don't know if this is true, but I feel after removing the inside wood circle, the chisel work in the outside brick wall becomes much easier, may be it is because of there is no backing for those bricks after the wood is gone, I found the chisel is so difficult to remove bricks otherwise...

- I finished two holes in approx 3 plus hours... it does require a lot of hard work, but satisfaction worths it. I didn't use the fibre glass insulation as suggested by DesksETC. I used a lot of exterior caulking instead, the holes I drilled is not too much off, and have little gap only, so I think this is OK.. I will put fibre glass in the inside hole when at the drywalling stage, all over it...

Anyhow, thanks for the advice, I will move on to finished flaming for 5 to 6 more studs as all difficult to access venting pipes are done, I expect to do the bathroom drain pipes this coming weekend.

Here is my question for that: Does wash machine drain pipe should be 2" pipes, is it the codes? I kind of believe this is the case and intend to do so, but just want to ask here see if anyone has any other opinion... The demo picture in HD, use 1 1/2" pipes instead, I kind of think this is wrong... I suppose even it is not, use a bigger drain pipe does more good, and no harm...


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## Aceinstaller

kuiporn,

I wasn't talking about the size of the runs that you matched to the rest in the house(5" and 6") I was talking about the size of the trunk lines that supply all of these takeoffs. they are designed to supply enough air for what was originally installed in the home. adding more takeoffs to supply the basement with heat might reduce the airflow in all of the other vents upstairs. this can lead to cold rooms in the home. 

Ace


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## KUIPORNG

*Drain and Supply pipes installation*

Hi Everyone,

I was on vacation for three days doing drain piples and supply pipes. But first thanks for ACE installer's clarification, but I think in my case, I should be ok because the supply line I extract heat from has supply line to the same area except it is on the ceiling and I have to bring it down... so I should be fine, I just need to cover up the ceiling hole and make it use the ground level hole... anyhow, this should not be much of a problem for new home as the supply lines have you renovated the basement in their mind...

go back to the drain pipes and supply pipes. I find the drain pipe is not much problem and only challenge is TEE into the existing pipe, you need to cut the length out in exact right length, too short, it couldn't get in, too much, you are in big trouble because you will leave gap... I kind of cut too little and then need to trim more, and trim more... and it was done finally anyway.

for supply pipes... if you are the first timer like me, please use pre-soldered pipe parts + soldering, it just increase your confident that there is no leak, although I used some parts which are not pre-soldered and still not leak... it almost a perfect job except I made a big mistake... I installed the shower unit 90 degree off, that means in-take becomes out-take and vice versa, this is all because I didn't read the manual careful enough, instead I looked at the structure, it has a printed word "UP" and I used it as a guidence, and in fact it is dead wrong, I don't know why they print a big word "UP" there to mislead people,... for that, I need to fix the structure by cutting out some pipes and put in couplers. Teeing into existing lines still the big challenge with similar reason of the drain pipes, you need to cut the right length, I found out soldering is in fact less trouble, although I worried most, I didn't encountered a leak due to wrong soldering yet... Another tip: buy the smallest pipe cutter possible, I made the mistake went for the best looking one, and it is not useful to cut existing pipes due to limited space, I end up require to use rotary tool to do that, so rotary tool is also very useful for tight spot... forget about hand saw, it just too difficult... and ware gloves, I got burn with a hot solder in one of my figure because of rushing into trying the first soldering experience. Also, use a metal plate as sheild for things behind the pipes, don't purchase the expensive HD protecting cloth, somthing like $30 plus tax...Also, buy a $3 long mouth lighter, it is money well spent, rather than using matches or regular lighter... Mark all edges with marker on all connection when you dry fitting, then you know how depth you insert the pipes when you doing the actual fitting. Fitting 90 degree or 45 degree albrow is a real challenge, in fact, I advice don't bother dry fitting them, they are so difficult to fit, and pull out, just fit them and solder them... Make sure you spend the money on the Wrench, it is impossible to push/pull those albrow from the pipes bare hand, I did one with the help of my foot, then I purchased the wench and found out it could have been so much easier...

another thing: I discovered threaded join is more problematic than soldered places, I don't have any leak on any soldered joins so far, but I already encountered three threaded joins need repair, one of them is easy fix, by heat and turn, one of them is trouble, I need to cut out and replace. The other one is to be determined.

I will put more tips in my earlier message for DIY people... when I have time...


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## KUIPORNG

*what is the way to connect two pipes*

Due to the fact that I need to replace a thread adaptor because of the leak, it now end up have two pipes need to be connected. Say the space between them is 4" how do I connect them?

I was thinking this should be easy by buying two couples in HD and cut a 4" inch pipes and fit the couple at each end, this doesn't work because once you fit in the couple the pipe cannot ge in. I tried that and it is not doable. 

HD doesn't sell those couples which can slide through the pipe, if they do, it would work...

I am now thinking may be I should cut a 3" pipe and say the coupling is 1" long, it will fit 0.25" into the pipes at each end and I can fit in the pipe.

But don't know if this is the best way to do it.

Please advice.


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## KUIPORNG

*Would there be a weak join ?*

I went to Home Depot, Canadian Tire and Lowes last night to look for repairing couples, no luck, they don't sell it. Anyhow, I went back home and use what I have and do the work. I fix all leaks (two of them, all because of thread adpator)... I have to cut the pipe shorter than the opening... use the couples(with stop) to bridge them. 

Although there is no leak, I do have some concern though, especially the 0.75" pipes... you know, one of the connection is not straight anymore, as the pipes are not completely fit into the couples, it bend a little bit... although the soldering making the connection secure and tight and therefore no leak, I am worry down the road, will the water pressure break the join, as this may be a weak join because pipes didn't suck in a lot... 

Can anyone let me know is this a concern I should have, or it is safe to say once the soldering indicate no leak, I shouldn't worry about it anymore... I open the switch since last night and this morning I check it still has no leak...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Anyone know where to buy 3/4" repair slip on coupling in Toronto*

I visited a Plumbing part speciality store this afternoon, only be able to get 1/2" repair slip on coupling. I called a few other speciality store base on Yellow pages, none of them carry this parts. I know US online store sell these parts but they don't ship to Canada...

I was so surprise no one selling these stuff here... Anyone know where to buy them in Toronto. I really want to replace the weak join I mentioned in my above message as after talking with some people, they all suggest I replace it to get a peace of mind....

Thank You


----------



## KUIPORNG

*I finally take away the annoying beams...*

After a lot of thinking and experiment, I finally took away those annoying beam which prependicular to the joists and just nailed to the joists in the middle of the ceiling... I didn't see those beams in other houses from other builders... they prevent me from setting up a flat ceiling, setting soffet around them is a pain and looks ugly... Now I feel good about removing them. I think their purpose is to make sure the joists do not shift in position in the begining settlement of the house, and even that there are small wood blocks inside the joists doing that... this probably increase its strength only, other than that, it serves no supporting purpose. I am sure there are people here agree/disagree with my doing this, but I did it and things looks much better now...

I also removed a middle wall which I set up originally for a room, after thinking about it more, there is no need for a room, we rather want open space, thanks to steel setup with screws, it takes approx half an hour to remove the complete middle wall, I am sure it will be a pain doing the same for nailed wood constructions and probably take twice longer...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Next Challenge: Electrical*

I am new to Electrical as well. These are questions I have in mind:

 how many circuits do we normally need for a 1000 square feet basement with one bathroom, one recreation room and one entertainment room, one washer and dryer

Can I use the existing circuit for the washer/dryer to connect to the new washer/dryer... considering that I am going to relocate the machines rather than adding new ones, this won't increase the load...

Thanks for anyone who can answer these questions...


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## KUIPORNG

*painting the wall is expensive and a pain...*

I have run out of paper to cover the wall in order to fullfill the code before laying insulation, I bought a can of concrete paint and start painting few small areas before calling for inspection... I find out painting the wall is really a pain when comparing with hanging those other paper directly, it takes 400% longer time to do it, and the paint is more expensive as well, and it is also messy....


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## KUIPORNG

*Moving slow but Inspection is coming up*

With a 2 years old and 10 months old... You cannot do much in renovation... anyhow, I manage to get the Plumbing and Framing Inspection to start... I sent a request this morning for coming Friday... I am nervous and excited about this event as I never deal with inspector before,.... wonder how it will go... Well... I will let you know... Would anyone who have experiece with inspector and have some idea to share... please let me know...


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## KUIPORNG

*Oops with bathroom flooring...*

Today I went to HD, I saw marble tile only $2.79 per sq ft. I bought 75 of them hoping to do the bathroom tiling as my next task. somthing suddenly terrible happen in my mind: How should I tile the floor portion underneath the shower pan? I just realize when I cut the drain, I didn't consider the thickness of the tiles... that means if I tile the shower pan flooring, the drain pipe will be cut too short and there may be problem when connect the drain hole ... 

If I don't tile the shower pan portion, I am sure everyone agrees it would be ugly.... 

Please what is the best step to take now to face this challenge... I don't know if there is plumbing hardware allow you to extend a pipe by half an inch to one inch.... please advice...


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## KUIPORNG

*Inspector Said*

I went home but the inspector already gone. My wife said the inspector just give 3 words: "Everything is OK". He also said need to re-inspect before putting on drywalls for insulation...

Well, all I feel is the inspection is really a much smaller thing than most people thought. My wife said the inspector only stay for about 2 minutes...

Anyhow... I will start setting up electrical... and need to call for electrical inspection... don't know when... my wife is more ease with me now regarding the timing. She said it is not in a hurry no more... I myself like to get it done sooner but with the babies around... it is not easy...


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## KUIPORNG

*tiling on bathroom*

After further investigation over the internet, I discovered I can cut curve even on marble, with techniques outline in this page:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/cut_in02.htm
therefore, I think I will try to do that, if it doesn't work, I will then build a perform surrounding the pan...
Anyone has experience cutting curve on Marble, the above document basically teach how to do so with circular small wet saw... I wonder anyone tried that here and if it works well...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Installing Can Lights*

I have intalled 6 can lights so far, each can light take approx half an hour to one hour to install including everything... It is pretty straight forward. The concern is really buying the right light to start with... the key is the height, I got a 5" can which just have the height barely fit my situation.... anything more will not fit... the width does not fit our joists space at all, but this can be fix by using blocking and which I did, our joist space is too small to fit in those sliding frames...

Anyhow, it is a fun installation, just if I have more time to do the job....


----------



## KUIPORNG

*the more I do the wireing, the more I hate steel studs*

I wish I had made the decision to use wood studs earlier, now when I doing the wiring, try to attach a electrical box to steel stud is a pain. I know you can buy those specialize electrical box for steel stud... but I happen to win a large lot of regular electrical boxes from Ebay, why pay premium for those specialize stuff, I hate these steel studs, its not being rigid gives me headache, I have to go back to wood to put it around the box together with the steel stud... Gee, the only advantage of steel stud I can see is its being guarantee to be straight, but if you don't mind spending time investigating every single wood stud in the lumber store, don't buy steel studs...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*make sure you bought a live wire tester*

During wiring when testing a light circuit and connecting last can light, I made the wrong connection at the regular socket plug. the lighting circuit I am testing hot wire connect to neutral and vise versa... Thanks to this small testing tool. I was able to detect this, otherwise, I could have got shock... because the light did turn off, but the hot wire still have current if you make the mistake as I did... To do electric work, you definitely need this testing tool for safty purpose... The one I bought is like a small screw driver which when you touch the metal part, it shows you whether there is voltage and how much... it is great handy tool... The wiring is really easy thing, for industry charging $100 per can, you can save a log for DIY, well, it is easy for new construction, I am not sure about remodeling as I never try it, working behind a drywall may be a different story ...


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

If you have insulation in the areas where you installed the can/recessed lighting, make sure you use insulated cans....
Alot of people have insulation in between the floors for 'sound insulation', But often use un-insulated cans.....
The miss-match always results in a 'flunk' on the electrical inspection.


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Thank you and more about Lighting*

Thank you for the advice for insulated/uninsulated cans, I didn't use insulation on the ceiling of the basement, so this should not be an issue... The area I am a little bit concern about inspection is really the number of can lights they allow me to tire to one home run, the way I am doing now, it could easily reach 20 cans per home run. But if I do the math, assume 60 W (max) per can, 20 cans only 1200 W which should be OK for a 15 A wire, but don't know if the inspector will be picky etc... and I am using those energy saving 15W bulb anyway... Any advice/experience on this are appreciated.

My other experience is that, I found out planning on paper only help a bit, I found most effective way to do the cans layout is by actually looking at the ceiling and found the most convenient spot for installation as well as trying out after setting up one set control by one switch to see if enough lighting result, I am adding 3 more lights from my original plan because of this exerise, I really didn't have a detail plan except a rought plan and think about it in details while it goes, I think this is kind of Just in Time Planning... I know many people disagree with this approach saying everything should be on paper first... but I did find out for wiring this just in time type work better for me... I did try draw a few circuts on paper before but didn't find those too useful ...

And this is not related to lighting, but I want to bring it up for major renovation, those metal storage box with rolling wheels and many drawers is a pain saver. I finally got one from Walmart last weekend when they are selling it for only $69 CAD. After using it for a couple of days, man, this thing is one of the preferred to have stuff, now I can find the bits,screw drivers...etc. so much easier and the tool box move to where I am working... If only WalMart have put this stuff on sale last winter...

Another complain to the steel studs stuff, yes, they predrill holes for you on the studs, so that you can put wire through them without drilling, but man, you need to put in those specialize plastic circles on the holes to avoid the wire being cut by the steel... but do you know how much they charge for those plastic circles... it is unreasonably high, a handful of those you need to pay 10, 20 dollars... man, they try to eat you when you do not know... I hate to see people doing business like that... not that I cannot afford 10,20 dollars... for xyz sake, this is plastic... I intend to use wood pieces and drill hole through them... I know, this mean I need to do more work than regular wood, that is exactly why I hate steel studs so much.


----------



## KUIPORNG

*any suggestion on existing hot wire?*

I have to use one of the existing switch location for the going down to basement light, change it to 3 ways switch controling different set of lights so that it can turn on/off upstairs as well as downstair. My question is: when I disassemble the switch, what do I do with these hot wires? What I intend to do is pigtail them and include them into the electrical box connect to nothing. Although I prefer to just pigtail them and let them outside the electrical box, because the electrical box is already very crowded having a 14/3 and 14/2 wires input, may be I can use a bigger electrical box to accomodate this.

Is this arrangement ok or there is somthing I need to do or code forbidden doing this etc... anyone knows?


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Insulation material reusable?*

Hi Everyone,

I removed all the half-wall insulation from the builder and framing for the basement I am building, I do not know the cost of buying new insulation and wonder should I kept the old insulation I removed from the builder, I kept them in a number of garbage bags now, but do not know if this is really necessary. Can someone tell me if those insulation generally reusable, or it does not make much sense to reuse them because of either insulation is so cheap that do not bother, or reusing them is too difficult because they no longer easily cut and paste onto the framing member nice and clean..

If the answer is no, I should not reuse them, I would rather dump those 10 or 20's big garbage bags away earlier rather than later...

Please advice

(For someone who interested in knowing, my current status for this long going project is still electrical wiring. I am currently wiring for the bathroom, I have finished the recreation area and downstair entrance area, me and my wife have accept the reality that this project's deadline would be year 2007 rather than year 2006)

Thank You


----------



## KUIPORNG

*bathroom WIRING answer from the authority*

I sent an email to Canadian Code Authority in Toronto region, got answer back, share with you here in case you want to know, see below questions and reply (read from bottom up):



1. If the bathroom circuit includes lighting outlets, then the maximum rating of the circuit is 15 amps. 
2. Lighting and receptacle outlets in a bathroom can be on the same circuit. 
3. The code requires that receptacles in a bathroom be GFCI protected. The code does not require the lighting outlets or the exhaust fan to be GFCI protected.
Ontario Electrical Safety Code Rules 26-700, 30-104. 
Code Specialist 
Electrical Safety Authority 
ESA encourages the use of Licensed Electrical Contractors. 
All electrical work requires a Certificate of Inspection from the Electrical Safety Authority. 
-----Original Message----- 
From: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 4:33 PM 
Subject: ESA email contact form 

I am doing wiring on my basement. Few questions related to bathroom wiring: 
1: 
Do I need to use 20A circuit for the basement bathroom circuit? or 15A is fine as long as it is not overloaded. 
2: 
Dose receptacle and lights on the bathroom must be on two separate circuits? 
3: 
Does everything in the bathroom including lights/fan/receptacle have to be GFCI protected? 


Thanks.


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## KUIPORNG

After going through a few electrical box installation, here is some experience I can share:

- do not fix the electrical device box in position before making the connection, this is recommended from the book, but I find it not the best, instead, make the connection first and do all wiring then attach the electrical box to the studs, I do need to install one or two horizontal beams between the two studs in order to do that though, but I think this is easier than try to do things when the electrical box are fix in place, especially those electrical box close to the floor, bending down is a pain... well at least this is my opinion, may be some expert out there will give a different opinion.

- connect the first ground wire hook around the device box screw first before bringing in other wires. 

- cut wires to shorter/convenient lengths before pigtailing them instead of pigtailing them then force the excess wires to fit into the box.

That's about the experience I gain for electrical box connection.


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## KUIPORNG

*cut 2x4 with 1.25 inches for wire protection*

I find out cutting 1.25 inches of 2x4 stud and use it for fitting wire through the metal stud is perfect, no need to screw the wood onto the steel studs as the wood can hold itself up, all you need is to drill a hole on the center of the piece. This is much better than buying those adaptor they are selling expensively in HD...

I also find out attached device box to studs first sometimes has its advantageous and I am doing so for the receptacles outlets. idea sometimes changed....

I also find out there is a deadline on the permit... but talking with the department people, they extend my deadline to next year... So if you have a permit and DIY, please remember to check the expiry date,it is not indefinite...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*more Q/A for Receptacles wiring (Canadian Code Only) (answers from Authority)*

I am wiring receptacles on my basement, would like to ask these two questions: 
1. is there a height restriction on the receptacle above the floor. I set them up a bit higher than regular ones: the length of a hammer, there is no violation to code for that, right?
2. running the wire across the studs, is there a code restriction such as the wire must be at least 1 feet above the receptacles etc.? If there is such restrictions, are they the same for both wood studs and steel studs? or there is no restriction at all..


1. The Ontario Electrical Safety Code does not contain rules that specify the mounting height of receptacles and switches.
Common trade practice is to mount receptacles at 300 mm (12") to the bottom of the outlet above the floor and switches at 1.2 m (48") to the bottom of the outlet above the floor, however these heights are not mandatory.
2. The Ontario Electrical Safety Code does not contain rules that specify the height of cables that are installed through wall studs.

ESA encourages the use of Licensed Electrical Contractors. 
All electrical work requires a Certificate of Inspection from the Electrical Safety Authority.


----------



## KUIPORNG

*make sure you upgrade your main panel when purchase a new home from builder*

I didn't and I am now working into difficulty. The 100A panel is really crowdy and I saw my neighbour who has upgraded to 200A is so much roomy and he can do a lot of stuff.. I know I can add sub-panel... but it is a big headache... I still trying to fit into the one or two empty slots hoping the inspector won't say anything about it....


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Electrical Inspection Done*

Again, inspection is kind of less serious then I thought, again, I was not at the scene. Inspector call me at work and I was away from my desk, then he visited my place as my wife is home. It took approx 5 minutes. He did point out three things:

- the switch for the furnance has to be moved outside the furnance room, this is because in case there is trouble inside the furnance room, someone can turn off the switch without opening the door.

- insulation material need to be put between wires and heat supply pipe when they are close together

- do not use metal claims but plastic ones, I am talking about those metal strips which has a holes at each end where you can screw them into place... I used plastic ones in the beginning, but at the end, I saw those metal ones and they are 3 times cheaper.. so I purchase one bag to fastening the last 25 clamps... well end up, I need to remove them... 

- inspector also suggest to install a outlet for ironing in the laundry/bath room... good idea.. 

overall, this is not too bad... although it costs me $160 bucks... I am quite please with it...


----------



## KUIPORNG

INSULATION INSTALLATION

In case you have insulation you tore down like I did which can be reused... do not reuse them right away... instead, purchase new ones... use them on the regular 16" spacing studs... for those irregular spacing studs. use the old one... the old one can be reused but make sure you double them up as it is thinner than the new one because when you tore down the old one... part of it is gone sticking to the plastic sheets... I made the mistake rush in using them on one wall without doubling it up... I may redo it at the end if I have left over insulation... installing new insulation is really quick and easy as they are precut at the 16" spacing... don't hire someone to do this easy job rather than doing it yourself...


----------



## KUIPORNG

Start feeling pain on the electrical permit stuff...

Yesterday I received a letter from the electrical safty authorization outlining four defects reported by the 5 minutes visit inspector... I didn't know they have to do it so formal... saying I have to correct them in xyz days to avoid their taking further actions... One of the defect is in fact not ture... don't know how the inspector come up with that... saying I didn't have a dedicated circuit for the washer...etc. which is exactly untrue, I reported that this morning.... the other 3 defects is so minor I wonder they bother putting them on paper... well the bad news is it costs extra to have those defects being reinspect.... those three other defects are : 1. move the furnance switch from inside furnance room to outside furnance room. 2. remove metal strip clamps (a handful of them) and replace with plastics ones. 3. put insulation on wire where it is close to heat supply lines....


----------



## KUIPORNG

The inspector will make surprise visit... but they are generally reasonable, not trying to pin you down by checking every minor aspects of your installation... I am close to the drywalling stage now... I intend to hire a student, kind of to help me, not that I don't want to pass the job to a contractor, but after significant considerations, I choose this because:

1. I know what I should do and therefore only doing it myself would ensure that, if you rely on a contractor, he will do it his way and more than likely it will be differed from what you have in mind...

2. it is again the pride and ownership reason, as you want to say you build everything, rather than everything but drywalling...

3. it should cost less as you use your own labour, as you are the director, the student kind of helping you, so you don't need to pay primium wages...


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## harleysilo

Please tell me you've taken some pictures of your project and are going to post them sometime soon? Yes?


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## KUIPORNG

Thank you for your interested Harleysilo, I will post the pictures in next few days.. with explanations..etc. it is going to be fun...

Anyhow, you know what people, I post an AD in the internet in my community (free), and get reply from a 30 years old person from my community, don't say I am cheap. but that is the market wages in Toronto this days. $10 per hour... I will use him in Oct for drywalling after I done with all insulations and minor framing work...etc...

Bad news is my mom is in hospital, so I need to look after her sometimes... but we believe in God(Jesus) and put everything on his shoulder... this will slow my project a bit though....

side news, electrical inspector came again yesterday, but this time he complained he thought I finished drywalling and waste him a trip... he said I should have let him know not to come as it is not finished drywalling etc.etc. when he called... the problem is, the original inspector is on vacation causing all these confusion... the bottom line is I hope they wouldn't charge me for this visit, my wife think otherwise though... so make sure you know if an inspector should come or not , clear communications, before letting/inviting them to come... it costs ...


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## KUIPORNG

*Pictures of my basement*

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kuiporng/album?.dir=/4641re2&.src=ph

first picture is the wash/laundry room. See all the plumbing I did.

the other pictures show steel studs, wood studs, flooring, lighting...etc.


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## redline

Will the inspector allow you to email photos of the items that need inspecton rather then having him come out to look at the items?

Hope your mother health improves:thumbup:


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## KUIPORNG

Thank you for your concern regarding my mom's health, Redline, as a matter of fact, my mom's situation is getting better, which is kind of out of our surprise, thanks God for that, and we hope she and us continue to have strength to face what ever challenge up coming...

Inspectors here is divided by regions, so they drive around all the time from place to place nearby, for them to pop in is not much, and they definitely preferred that than looking at the tube, after all, Canada is kind of a more old fashion country when comparing to US, may be after 10 or so years, they will consider that, but I don't think they consider it now...


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## J187

KUIPORNG said:


> after all, Canada is kind of a more old fashion country when comparing to US, may be after 10 or so years, they will consider that, but I don't think they consider it now...


 
Yeah, I hear that, every time I drive through Canada, I'm amazed at how behind the music is in relation to the US.

Glad to hear your mom is doing better.


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## KUIPORNG

Another headache today. Inspector said the vapour barrier I used is too thin... not the standard one... I saw a big plastic rolls selling in Ebay for 99 cents... they are self sticking... so that I don't need to use stapler, and I don't have one... then I bought it and use it... now it is no good..... I need to clarify now with inspector can I just put the standard one on top of what I had in place so that at least I have two layers of vapour barrier one on top of the other.... so that my labour and material cost is not totally waste and I can sleep better...

this time the inspector is a lady... don't know if this has anything to do with it being so strict... My six sense told me there is going to be somthing wrong after I learned that it is a lady inspector coming over...


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## KUIPORNG

*questions about insulation*

Here is the details:

the lady inspector said I need to find a specification for the plastic I am using for the vapour barrier, from the store where I bought it, to see if it fullfill the city's standard... I didn't tell her I get it from Ebay...

she said it is ok for me to buy the regular plastic and put it on top of the existing one... is this true, ... or it is again somthing called double barrier?.... I should tear down existing plastic? anyone know?

she said I need to put in vapour barrier in the washroom even I intend to use green board... can anyone clarify this is correct? because I remember reading from book, it is a "not to do thing" to avoid double barrier....

I need to insulated all the small stone areas she see. Is this normal for basement you have a little area here or there don't insulated, such as area below the electrical panel, behind the water heater..etc because those areas are hard to frame... anyone has any experience on this to share... 

the good news is next inspectation will be passed back to my original inspector, this inspector is worse than my mother in law ...

Well, insulation is more complicated than I thought...


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

KUIPORNG said:


> Here is the details:
> she said it is ok for me to buy the regular plastic and put it on top of the existing one... is this true, ... or it is again somthing called double barrier?.... I should tear down existing plastic? anyone know?
> ...


It would not be a double barrier. 



KUIPORNG said:


> she said I need to put in vapour barrier in the washroom even I intend to use green board... can anyone clarify this is correct? because I remember reading from book, it is a "not to do thing" to avoid double barrier.......


Green Board (Moisture resistant board) is not rated to serve as a vapor barrier. It has a light waxed coating over the paper face. It is NOT a vapor tight material.



KUIPORNG said:


> I need to insulated all the small stone areas she see. Is this normal for basement you have a little area here or there don't insulated, such as area below the electrical panel, behind the water heater..etc because those areas are hard to frame... anyone has any experience on this to share... ...


Yes, it is as she told you.


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## KUIPORNG

Thanks for the information and confirmation AtlanticWBConst. It does make me feel better... 

Now I can see insulation is kind of a big job.... not much less than electricity. well may be a bit less.. considering you have to cover every corner of stones here or there... it probably takes a couple of weeks or so to finish it..

I kind of ok with the inspector as well now...

in theory, if I had not applied the permit, I would not have discovered these mistakes... so for perfectionist, applying permit is the way to go... I bet even some contractors do not do things 100% according to code... 

Thanks...


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## toneendrew

I have been doing research because my I want to finish my basement. So I ended up here and have read your saga Kuiporng. Mind you my husband and I are both DIY'ers and have done all of our home remodelling. But you have just scared me into getting a home equity loan so that we can hire someone else to do it for us. Your saga is very informative. 
Goodluck on finishing your project. Hope you finish soon so you can enjoy all of your hard work. Glad your mom is doing better.


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## KUIPORNG

Hi Toneendrew, I would have thought otherwise, that someone like me can do the basement, so could anyone else... the project went slow... not because it is time demanding as it looks... just because I have a 1,2,10,3x years old to take care... 3x is my wife... I spent roughly 30 minutes per day (weekday only) on it... so if you have more time... you can do it faster... most things sound scare but not such a big deal when doing it... like I have to tear down all plastics mentioned above.. which take me all together half an hour to do.... anyhow... thanks for your regards to my mom....


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## KUIPORNG

*What thickness of drywall for ceilings...*

I am going to order drywalls from HD and they offer delivery for $60 bucks regardless quantities... this is much better than me and a friend to go to pickup ourselves.... now my question:

can I use 0.5 inch thickness drywalls throughout... including ceiling... you know, book said using 5/8 inches for ceiling for better result etc... but it just too much difficult for me to figure out that how many of this type for ceiling ... and how many for wall... I would rather go with one thickness for simplicity sake... please let me know if I could use 0.5 inches thickness throughout and if this is a common practice...


Thanks for info...


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## AtlanticWBConst.

KUIPORNG said:


> I am going to order drywalls from HD and they offer delivery for $60 bucks regardless quantities... this is much better than me and a friend to go to pickup ourselves.... now my question:
> 
> can I use 0.5 inch thickness drywalls throughout... including ceiling... you know, book said using 5/8 inches for ceiling for better result etc... but it just too much difficult for me to figure out that how many of this type for ceiling ... and how many for wall... I would rather go with one thickness for simplicity sake... please let me know if I could use 0.5 inches thickness throughout and if this is a common practice...
> 
> 
> Thanks for info...


Kuiporng

1/2" for ceilings and walls are fine. (p.s.-throw the book away:wink: )


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## KUIPORNG

insulation inspection just passed... this time it is a 2 minutes visit.

drywalls will arrive next Saturday...


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## KUIPORNG

*Don't be cheap on materials... sometimes*

Yesterday, I bought some telephone wires from HD, even the sells person recommend to buy the 50cents/M one, I picked the 30cents/M one as I thought it just an extra telephone, wire is wire, who care about better quality...

I then run the 20 Meter cables on the ceiling... guess what, it doesn't work... I am so lucky that the wire contains 2 pairs of wires, and I am so lucky I thought of trying the second pair, when I tried the 2nd pair of wires, it works, as the first pair is broken somewhere in between...

I almost need to redo my 20 Meter cable running work because of saving five bucks.....


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## KUIPORNG

Drywalls arrived from HD Saturday, "Delivery" is a wise choice, they are so equipped that they are able to put all drywalls inside your garage. So order a large quantity from them and have them deliver.... it makes a lot of sense... I moved half of them to basement already with my relatives already, both of us complain about back pain the next day, we will wait for a while before moving the other half, I am delighted we space out the garage before the delivery, couldn't think of what can we do if the drywalls were dumped on the driveway only in a rainy day...


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## KUIPORNG

*my first ceiling drywall get up*

After I got the lift yesterday, I quickly tried to install my first ceiling drywall.... now learn these :

1. don't be too eager to try your new toy (lift in this case), got scold by my wifle at 12 pm doing screwing where she and her two children, mine too, standing besides the stairway...

2. mark the opening on the drywall before putting it up, I found it so difficult to work against the earth gravity, try to drew up side down, ink don't even come out, and the long ruler just not holding up even they are made of steel and I have to use my head to hold them against the drywall to draw a line.

3. the lift is great, it takes no effort... only effort is to put the drywall onto the lift which is better done with two people, in this case, my cousin give me a hand and then he walked back to his internet poker game...

4. if you don't mark on the top plates like I didn't, not following up the book... you then need to use a hand held lazer level, this tool is super, you can tace the whole line from the joist by making out a lazer line along the joist... in theory, you don't need to mark anything if you have this tool... I discover this method half of the job... not taught in the book, may be that time they wrote the book , lazer level is not available yet...

5. get a good spiral saw, I used my cheap rotary tool from Canadian T... it just not up for the job, bit fall out after a little bit run... Now I am back to the market shopping for a real powerful one...and yes, ware a mask and eye potection... I miss the fine print on the book talking about a lot of dust with spiral saw... it is in deed a lot of dust...

That's it for now...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

I am reading your experiences with drywall, kuiporng, and am paying close attention. 

I am learning from your experiences.


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## KUIPORNG

Yes yummy mummy, read on, I am going to try to use another approach to cut hole for the recess light, base on the book, they said, put some chaulk on the metal frame, press the drywall on it, then cut the hole base on the chaulk mark with a hole saw... I will try that as with the lift, this should be doable... as I cannot wait for the spirtal saw which _I _don't know when I will have it, I need to shop around for that... I will also try to use zaber saw to cut some drywall opening for the one I already put up... for the first ceiling ... it is not too bad...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Best tool to cut drywall window opening...*

I cut an opening on the drywall I posted day before. I used the Black and Decker cordless versapak three inch circular saw. This tool is perfect for this job, light, no noise, enough power for cutting drywall, the drywall wound is so precise and clean... I used it together with a hand saw for corner.... I should tried the versapak jigsaw next time.... anyway, for long line window/door opening type cut... 3" circular saw I believe is the best to use... using spiral saw generate a lot of dust and cannot cut that straight, use hand saw, the wound will not be that pretty, and again it won't be as straight, use jig saw also not as straight....

only did that much today due to time constraint.... in the end of Dec, my wife is again going to visit her parents in US for a few months... I expect major time will be spent then...


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## iGotNoTime

Great job so far! I too have learned alot and think I will also use steel in my basement now. Thank you for taking so many hours to document your troubles and successes. It means alot to us DIY'ers out here.

I just closed on my first real house a couple weeks ago we are trying to work in at while we are living in it. Just got all moved last week and have already began the plumbing process. So my basement is still drying out yet. As soon as I can find my camera I too want to document every little step with loads of pictures to put on my website. Hopefully more than just myself will learn from my mistakes too. 

I am only replying to say thank you for all the effort put into this thread, I do hope you have more pictures coming soon and continue writing on your project/s as they should come along.


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## KUIPORNG

*two mistakes learned , when not listening to book(s)*

1. don't force/jam a drywall into place, it will break, and it did

if it happens, replace it by cutting out a small piece and I am glad I did that, the broken piece is completely useless and is affecting the infrastructure if left alone

2. make sure screws go in pretty vertical

I didn't do that and found out screws cannot go in at the end and a little bit expose, if it is not vertica angle, the screw does not have enough force to push in at the end, and cannot flush...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*how to tackle situation when it is not a right angle?*

which is most of the case, there are two approach I have in mind:

1. left gap here or there and let the tapper to fill in the gap(s)

2. use angle grinder to trim the rock to while fitting in

I don't like the book recommendation saying to do exact measurment and do precutting before hanging. to me that is too much mathematics and too time consuming...

any professional can give some advice here?


----------



## KUIPORNG

*cordless 3" circular saw is the way to go to cut drywall*

I finally tried the book recommended method /traditional method of cutting drywall, with cutter and snapping...

I found the wound is by no mean close to the perfect cut from circular saw...

I think a non smooth edge is not as good and probably will make the tapper a little bit more difficult...

I don't know why no where in the book/net tell people to use circular saw for cutting drywall rather than cutter/snapping approach...

I already stock myself up with 9 versa pak batteries and intend to do all my drywall cutting with circular saw....

I wonder if any professional using circular saw... it indeed takes longer... but it has better result...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*chalk mark approach to cut hole is so so...*

I tried this, unfortunately, I have two recess lights holes on the same sheet, it only stamp one recess light sucessfully.... it is still quite hard to press it up with the lift....

I will try again next time with the help of two home-made T support see if it gets better result...

Seems to me Spiral saw is still the way to go for cutting holes...

Traditional old fashion way of measuring and cut before hanging is too much mathematics to me, even I got A in my high school Math...


----------



## Big Dave

*Drywall 101*

I used to hang and finish drywall a few years ago and did it for about 7 years.

When hanging drywall cut all peices 1/4" short of actual measurement. If your house is old and crooked then measure at the top and bottom and make the sheet 1/4" shorter than shortest measurement.

Cut with a utility knife and then take a rasp like the one below and smooth the cut with it. It makes for a better fit and looks more professional.









When hanging walls always start with the wall oposite the door. Then hang both walls that attach to that one and hang the door wall last. The only exception to this rule is if you have an outside corner. If you do then hang so that the outside corner is the last two peices. The reason for this is it keeps you from having to tight fit peices. It allows you to cut and hang a piece 1/4" short and then the next peice covers up the gap, just be sure to place the next peice tight to the first. Also a 1/4" gap is nothing that can't be covered by drywall tape.

Hope this helps.


----------



## KUIPORNG

Thanks BigDave... I am content with the circular saw cutting approach, although your cutting method probably be the widely used one... I will probably stick with the circular saw, well, until I see some bad things about it , may be...

I think your suggestion regarding "not perfect right angle" is kind of leave gap here or there as long as it is not more than 0.25 inch.... I will try that as well... although that mean I cannot use another toy "angle grinder"...

Thanks...


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Big Dave said:


> I used to hang and finish drywall a few years ago and did it for about 7 years.
> 
> When hanging drywall cut all peices 1/4" short of actual measurement. If your house is old and crooked then measure at the top and bottom and make the sheet 1/4" shorter than shortest measurement.
> 
> Cut with a utility knife and then take a rasp like the one below and smooth the cut with it. It makes for a better fit and looks more professional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When hanging walls always start with the wall oposite the door. Then hang both walls that attach to that one and hang the door wall last. The only exception to this rule is if you have an outside corner. If you do then hang so that the outside corner is the last two peices. The reason for this is it keeps you from having to tight fit peices. It allows you to cut and hang a piece 1/4" short and then the next peice covers up the gap, just be sure to place the next peice tight to the first. Also a 1/4" gap is nothing that can't be covered by drywall tape.
> 
> Hope this helps.


:thumbsup: All good advice from a fellow old drywaller.....


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## Big Dave

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> :thumbsup: All good advice from a fellow old drywaller.....


I thought for sure someone would rape me for my advice and point out something wrong.:laughing:


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## KUIPORNG

*Paint rather than chalk to do the marking*

is much better, together with an extra telescope support stand, I can mark and cut the recess light opening very nicely...

as the lift itself can only hold the drywall roughly to its position, to put the drywall to the exact position you need a telescope support stand or self made T-support, and do not use chalk to mark, use colorful paint, the chalk just don't attached when it is upside down... but paint work perfectly... now I probably use this method rather than spiral saw for recess light cutting as the result is so perfect with the help of a 5" hole saw....


I probably used the spiral saw for cutting electrical outlet only...well, may be I even use the stamp approach for that... as it is safer to do the cutting before hanging...

I do not have much luck with the drywall gun, I feel easier with my jobmate 18v screw driver.. with adjustable torque, I am able to put in the screws easier, the drywall gun is heavy, the adjustment is kind of no use.... you either not enough in, or break the paper, sometimes, it did it... but not all times...


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## AtlanticWBConst.

KUIPORNG said:


> I do not have much luck with the drywall gun, I feel easier with my jobmate 18v screw driver.. with adjustable torque, I am able to put in the screws easier, the drywall gun is heavy, the adjustment is kind of no use.... you either not enough in, or break the paper, sometimes, it did it... but not all times...


I'm not surprised that you had a difficult time with the screw gun. Really, to properly learn how to use it, you need someone with you to actually show you how to hold the screwgun, how to adjust it, how to put the screws in, how much pressure to put on it, etc...
It is not easy to figure out by just reading about it....

Whenever we would show a new guy how to use a screw gun...the first day was like listening to someone grinding their finger nails on a chaulk board.....
Big Dave, I'm sure will know exactly what the sound of a new "screw gun operator" sounds like....ouch, my ears....:laughing:


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## Big Dave

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> I'm not surprised that you had a difficult time with the screw gun. Really, to properly learn how to use it, you need someone with you to actually show you how to hold the screwgun, how to adjust it, how to put the screws in, how much pressure to put on it, etc...
> It is not easy to figure out by just reading about it....
> 
> Whenever we would show a new guy how to use a screw gun...the first day was like listening to someone grinding their finger nails on a chaulk board.....
> Big Dave, I'm sure will know exactly what the sound of a new "screw gun operator" sounds like....ouch, my ears....:laughing:


Yeah.....We would always give them the wore out gun to practice with.:laughing:


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## KUIPORNG

Hi AtlanticWBConst and BigDave, you probably right on the screw gun is not a "by default" easy to use tool... but don't blame the book... I in fact thought it is so easy to use and didn't read anything about how to use it... may be I should download some manual or stuff to try to see if I can learn somthing out of it on how to operate.... well... except, the 18V screwdriver seems quite sufficient for my needs... we DIYers besides rely on reading materials, is hard to find opportunities with hand-on teaching personnels... not that I disagree with you that hand-on teaching is valuable... it just not easy to have such for a busy life of everyone...


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## KUIPORNG

*How to trim drywall to fit...*

I finally find a use of the cheap rotary tool... it is quite good at triming... when you cut a piece which is a bit too big to fit into place... this cheap rotary tool is very good at triming it, it is not powerful enough for cutting through drywall, but triming is very good, just adaquet power. just slide the drywall bit from left to right along the edge, the drywall edge can be trim nicely... a lot of dust though... so far I have not use any cutter to cut drywall... only circular saw, hole saw, and this triming tool... it works well...


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## Big Dave

You know what they say.....If it aint broke don't fix it. Keep up the good work.


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## KUIPORNG

*drywall hand saws are also good idea*

I have two hand saws, one with the pointy end with bigger teeth which can be used for initial rough opening... I have another hand saw which is used to cut ABS plumbing pipe also which have a more fine teeth... I find these two hand saws are very handy for drywall cutting.... if you want to have a feel of what you are cutting as circular saw you cannot has as much feel when cutting through opening like window...Also, circular saw cannot cut the end of a 90 degree corner easily, you either over/under cut it... a plumbing hand saw in this case is perfect... I used them today because my circular saw batteries went out and discovered that they are not that bad...


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## Hammatime

I'm not sure why you are cutting the drywall with a circular saw, but these inexpensive tools are the best things to cut and trim drywall.






















Rasp, Drywall saw and Utility knife


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## KUIPORNG

circular saw have the edge cut so smooth... I tried other ways.. I happened to have a back and decker 3 inch versapak saw... that tool is so good and smooth... also very fast, no need to put the drywall on top of somewhere to snap ..etc. I in fact draw/cut many times when the drywall still on the lift... if you look at the edge of the unbutted seam on top and bottom, that is result from a circular saw is similar to that type of cut from the manufacturer... the saw in your picture is one of the hand saw I have... it is good for some type of cut, but it has too big a teeth for other finer cut sometimes you want... for that.. I use ABS pipe saw and it is very nice... The RASP in your picture probably be the tool I am missing.. but I would think it is used to smooth out the rough cut from the traditional method... but I am thinking... wouldn't it be better if you can have a smooth cut right from start....


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## KUIPORNG

*stud finder comes handy as well*

this morning I put up a ceiling forget to measure the window opening at the end... before.. when I have this situation... I kind of using a spiral saw to cut through to locate the edge... this morning I tried a different approach... use a stud finder... well ... it did the job ... the good thing about this approach is you can avoid all dust cloud from the spirtual saw on top of your head... my experience say spiral saw is ok if it is below your eye level... but when it is above... it is messy...


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## KUIPORNG

*circular saw can cut a 1 inch 8 ft strip drywall*

can you do that with a cutter?


not much else to update...

in theory, it can even cut thinner, say half an inch... if you need to...

has to use the thin blade like the 3" black and decker cordless saw...


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## KUIPORNG

*cuter to cut drywall has its merits...*

I have to admit use cuter to cut drywall has its merits... it has no noise and minimum dust...

so I think it is really a combination of cutter, circular saw, jigsaw, handsaw,... for all drywall cutting depends on the situation... 

I would sumerize it like this:

circular saw is good at: doing irregular and long straight cut... or thin strips cut...

jigsaw/hand saw is good at: doing small irregular and corner cut...

cutter is good at : doing straight cut...

and it also depends on the location of your operation for which saw is more convenient...


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## KUIPORNG

*Best way to protect eye/nose/mouth... equipment...*

After trying Goggles, Hospital Mask...etc. equipment... I finally find one equipment which is much better :

it is something you put on your head like a regular head and it has a plastic shield (transparent) which you can flip up or down to activate the protection or not... Why this is better?

1. it is so convenient in wearing the equipment, like putting on a regular summar head... 

2. after flip down the protection shield, you still breath easily and no annoying moisture all over your glasses... this is the big problem for me for the mask and goggle...

3. you can see so clear when the shield is up, as literally, there is nothing in front of your eye... 

4. for people who need to wear prescription glasses, like me, tripple the factor in above points...

this equipment cost $20 dollars though.. but it is money well worth spent...


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## KUIPORNG

My mother is going to the hospital now again... Please pray for her not to suffer and get well .... Thanks to God... letting her went back to her home town, Hong Kong for 10 days last month to see all relatives and finish anything left unfinished......

My mom is at her last days and her cancel is not going to be treated as it grows... I went to see her today and I talked to her, read Bibles to her... I gave her a hut and kiss before I left... I feel much better now... I intend to visit her more often... I feel so lucky that we can still spend quality time together even for 20 minutes after everyone knew the situation...To me, visiting my mom is like a date I am looking forward to or more... I have to value it so much as it may not be another chance...

Anyhow... back to Basement... I figure cutting 2x4 into half like the book recommended is better to buy 2x2 for two reasons: 1. it is stronger. 2. it is cheaper...like half price.... but cutting 2x4 into half is not an easy job and I am still working on it...


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## KUIPORNG

*I got a new drywall screwgun, it makes a hell of difference*

I spent a hundred bucks on a Makita new drywall screwgun... Men, it makes a hell of difference, I got it from Ebay, cost approx $200 in store... anyway... I now know my old Dewalt screwgun is a malfunction gun after using Makita.... It is not difficult to use at all and it is so good... Anyone should use it if they intend to put in 2000 plus drywall screws... the money is nothing compare to the time/effort/no damage result you got... it is totally amazing...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Nice to see you back, with all your information again.

I hope you enjoyed your visit with your mom.


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## KUIPORNG

*drywall lift can hang walls besides ceilings*

I finally hang my first wall yesterday after hanging a bunch of ceilings... I worried before the drywall lift won't be helpful as it cannot turn 90 degree, it can only turn 60 degree, so I thought the wall will not be vertical using it... well... out of my surprise... it works and I don't know how else can I hang walls by myself without the lift... the lift is a must have for one person team like my case....


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

I am already looking into purchasing a drywall lift. 
Not right now, but in the future.

Where did you get yours?
E-bay?


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## KUIPORNG

Yes E-Bay... it is the best... I pay approx $270 Canadian Dollars include shipping and everything... As I told you before... if you are interested in mine... I can sell to you at great deal when I finished with it... otherwise... you can do the same get the same one as mine... there is one company in BC, Vancouver selling the equipment... It is basically new... but I saw a little bit scatch in one of the stand but it is still new.... who care about the scatch...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Yes, I will be interested in purchasing drywall lift, when the time comes for me to drywall.
But not for a while yet.
I will keep in touch with you.
I live in Toronto?
Are you in Toronto?


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## KUIPORNG

Yes I am in Markham Toronto... I know you probably won't be drywalling for a long while considering you also a lone warrier... I did my drywall only after exactly one year I start the project... Not to discourage you, but I wouldn't be surprised that you may not finish it all by yourself and pass to a GC in the middle of the project... it is really interests who drive me rather than anything else as it really a lot of work and my wife keep asking me to pass to a GC even now she keep saying if I find out I am not up to the job in tapping... pass to a GC... but I kind of want to give it a try first.. but I do not eliminate the chance by asking a GC to do the tapping.... you know as a lady, it is quite heavy to lift drywalls... even with the lift, you need to lift the drywall to put on the lift... I can never imagine my wife doing that...


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## KUIPORNG

*How to move the measurements from object to drywall...?*

I found out it is very difficult to move the measurement from physical objects to drywall.. using tape measures is too tedius and not accurate sometimes... especially you need to cut a large sheet which has a stair types shape at the corner...

Now, I wounder have anyone try this:

use a paper with reasonable size and hardiness to mold the objects then transfer it to the drywall for cutting...

I am going to try that tonight.... but where do I got those papers... newspaper is too soft... anyway... may invest some on dollar stores' craft paper to give it a try...

I wonder why books never mention somthing like that,,, I think this method is the best for cutting electrical outlet...even with a rotorzip drywall cutter...


Another thing, I purchased a $6 drywall carrier from HD yesterday besides the $13 step drywall lift... the step drywall lift for sure is required... but the drywall carrier is also very useful for carring drywall around... it is much better than holding it with your figures...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

You are right, drywall is heavy, even to lift it and put it on the lift.
But my husband will help me with that.

I know it will take me a long time, but I am determined to do it.
When we asked the GC that did my house to do the basement, he quoted me too much, so I told him that I am going to do it myself.
So I am not going to give up as I have to prove to him that this is not brain surgery.

Also, I am not putting in any doors, or bathroom, no stairs to do. All I am doing is basically one large room and a smaller one, with drywall, trim, paint and ceramic tiling on the floor. And move the laundry tub over approx. 6 ft., add some pot lights, and enclose the furnace. That's it.

Basically to clean it up and for the kids to use. 
I am determined not to ask a GC to finish it, as I have to prove to myself that this is really not that difficult work. Yes, it is time consuming because I am not an expert but I AM going to finish. I don't know when but I am.
Also, I have learned a lot about the building industry so far.


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## KUIPORNG

Hi Yummy_mummy, good to hear you are determine to do it.. and you have a husband as a helper.. I think you can finish your basement no problem... after doing it myself though, I wouldn't blame people charge handsomely on finish a basement, if someone ask me to do their basement, just a guess, I will have to charge them a lot as well knowing that it really requires a lot of work...


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## KUIPORNG

*the flooring I did actually has a official site*

http://www.systemplaton.com/

I didn't know what I did is in fact a standard from this company.... my coworker shows me a bouchure today... which shows that....


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

I am planning to avoid any problem with carpeting or hardwood flooring in my basement.

I plan on putting in all ceramic tile, right on top of the concrete, if I can do it, that is, on top of the concrete.

So that if there is some water that may come in, in the future, then at least the floor will not ruin.


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## KUIPORNG

Good idea... a lot of work for tiling... My parent's old house used to do that. They hire a contractor doing this. May be the tile they choose or whatever reason or may be you want to consult some tiling expert here... I found out there are condensation moisture on the surface of the tiles in summar times... making the tiles not very present feeling and quite sticky and dirty.... or may be just because my parents is not very tidy people... the tiles they choose are those shinely types, may be different types will help... well, they don't have air conditioner either... may be that is why...


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## KUIPORNG

*Tape measures seems still the way to go*

I tried the paper cutting mould approach to transfer shapes to drywall cutting... not too successful... I waste $5 bucks buying those paper... I end up have places with large gaps which I need to fill in small pieces of drywalls...

looks like tape measure still the best way even I hate it so much...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Tape measure I guess would give you the most accurate cut.

How about marking the area with lipstick and them press the drywall against it and then bring it down and cut it.

Do you think would work?

My parents also have ceramic in basement and it is pretty good.
They have the one that is not shiny.
Also, I will have area rugs throughout the basement for the kids area.
Hopefully it will work. 
At least it will be better than concrete, which is what is there now, and it is very difficult to keep it clean, even though I clean it all the time. Dust always seems to get there somehow.


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## KUIPORNG

the problem with the stamp and press approach is that drywall is too heavy and it is not always work on odd spaces..... the tape is accurate only when it is linear, when it is two dimension when things are not right angle, tape measure is not accurate either...

anyway...

if anyone can invent somthing to solve this difficulties. I am sure his invention can bring him multi-million dollars...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

What do you think the professionals do?

I wonder?


If they can put up drywall so fast, then they must have some secret that we don't know.
:yes:


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## KUIPORNG

I think they use the tape measure... tape measure is not particular slow. it just eat my mind power... which I need to remember the numbers... such as 18 3/16 inches height , 63 1/2 inches width. and I don't like to carry pen/notebook around, so I have to repeating two or three numbers from where I measure to where I cut... and the drywall whether up side down will change the measurement from left to right or right to left... all these stuff making my mind very tiring... I don't like to use my brain as my full time job already use it for so much as I am a computer person...


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## AtlanticWBConst.

yummy mummy said:


> What do you think the professionals do?
> 
> I wonder?
> 
> 
> If they can put up drywall so fast, then they must have some secret that we don't know.
> :yes:


 
As with all areas of the trades, there are MANY, many tricks, shortcuts, etc...Not to mention having all the right tools needed.

We measure to within 1/4" of actual measurements. We rarely have to 'trim' down a cut.... If you ever see a pro running a screw gun, 'he or she'... is popping the screws in about every 2 seconds. We use routers to cut out electrical boxes and lights. The utility knives (the ones we use don't retract) ... move so fast you would think that the workers cut themselves more often. In a good long day, an experinced hanger can put up 40 sheets...

Don't compare yourself to any of that....you'll get depressed. Just go at your own pace and enjoy your DIY project while learning more tips of the trade ...


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## yummy mummy

*atlantic*

I did assume that they have much more experience than a regular diy person.

I have seen them work before, on my house and could not believe how quick the house was transformed in just 2 days.

I plan to do it one small step at a time when I am at that point.
Because even one small step, eventually, it gets done.

I have a knack for paying attention to detail, so hopefully that will come in handy, in terms of measurements, etc.

By the way, Atlantic, I have built my first soffit. I am pretty impressed with myself as I am only 1/4 inch off, which for a first timer, to me, is not that bad.


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## KUIPORNG

Atlantic is right, I hang 2 sheets this morning in about an hour. so for one day 8 hours, I can hang 16 sheets in theory... but I get tire so often taking break so often... so I will be looking at less than that in practical.... I also have all the tools mentioned by Atlantic, drywall screwgun, router,...etc. I have yet to cut an outlet without any mud fixing required, the lights I used 5" circle bit and it was perfect all the time... I find the outlet standard cover is just too little tolerance for mistake... anyhow... I will try my next outlet to be perfect... I didn't do those measurement, but the routher goes to the box which has the receptacles installed already, the router bit can cut into the receptacle easily.... may be there is a trick to tackle this... any idea is appreciated as I still have quite a number of receptacles need to handle...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Can you make a hole in the area that you have to cut on the drywall, and then draw what you need to cut and use a drywall knife to cut it out?

I was just wondering.


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## KUIPORNG

the point of using the router is you don't need to measure and draw on drywall before hanging... what I did is just make a rough measure on the center of the box approx, hang the drywall, the use the router to cutin the center then to the way out, as there is receptacles on the other side, I cannot cut through the drywall, instead, I adjust the routher to the width of the drywall.. this sounds good but give practical problem because it always left some paper at the end which make visability not good and I then use some utility knife to clear up the end side... then when seeing what's behind start cutting... sounds in theory you won't cut too much... but that depends if you are a patient guy, for me, not too patient, I always cut a bit too much with the router...well I hope the next one will be better,... it is not the end of the world, as it can be fixed by muds... just a bit extra work...


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## KUIPORNG

*Drywalling during the Christmas and New Years*

I have finished drywalling during the holiday... here are some new experience to share:

1. do not cheap on materials... use bit and pieces, it is not worth considering drywalls are so cheap, always try to use the largest piece possible.

2. stuff heat resistant insulation into soffit which contains ducts/heat trunks... they are cheaper and easier than those silver shinning materials.

3. a drywall cutting router, a drywall screw gun, a lift... is a very good thing to have for DIYers .... if not a must.... also cordless compact cutting saw (receptical, circular, jig-saw) are very handy when cutting various shaped drywalls.

4. use wood studs rather than steels... this is reiteration, but I find it is much more easier to install the corner bead with wood than steel... just another reason...

5. I still use some molding technique to cut strange shaped drywalls...by stapled a bunch of cardboard papers on the wall/ceiling then tape them together then take it down for molding ... a perfect shape can be made, it is worth the time for somthing large/strange/shapes... I have one of those in the ceiling...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Congratulations, kuiporng

You are finished. Your wife must be really happy.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will need to refer to them one day. :yes:


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## KUIPORNG

*not quite finish yet*

_I actually only finished hanging the drywalls..._

_mudding and painting...etc. stuff has not done yet... as I heard mudding is the toughest job which requires most skills... so I should not be happy too soon... may be after one or more month... I will sure post some pictures to show the result..._


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## yummy mummy

I would love to see some pictures.
Yes, I also heard that mudding is a job that requires some skill.
But I also think that if you practice and practice, you will for sure get it.


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## KUIPORNG

*more update*

I have setup the shower enclsed unit... didn't follow the instruction though, the instruction said to assembly the two walls and the base first before fitting it... I found this is too hard to do... rather I fit in the base first before drywalling... then install the walls... then some screws cannot applied as the instuctions... but I thinks those screws are not so important...

anyhow... started drywall taping... one extremely important thing: make sure your screws slightly under the surface... I have quite some not exactly under but at the same level or slightly higher... due to not too careful when using the screwgun, not 100% prependicular... now this thing eat me up at taping stage... I found those screws which is under the surface takes no effort to tape, but those not, take 5 times more effort...the book even suggest fix them before tapping... me on the other hand don't want to go back thousands of screws to check this... it just too much time effort, I hope the second coat will be easier as the first coat should have make them more flush...


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## KUIPORNG

*correction*

Actually, I find out screwing those not perfect sitting screws using hand held screw driver is worthwhile and fast... so do it before tapping...

and a rotery tool for cleaning equipment is very good, you will get satisfaction when you see the hardest spot in the mixer change into dust by the rotery tool...

setting compound is good, I want strong bonding to this outside corner, but the problem is you only get a small size batch, to make the cleaning effort justified, go for those longer time setting compound as suggested by AtlanticWBConst and others ...


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## KUIPORNG

*Mudding experience*

If you are going to mix your own compound. Make sure you try some already mixed one first to get a feel of how the compound should be when finished mixing. I made the mistake of not doing this and only discovered my thought to be correct concentration is in fact not correct... hopefully, it is only the first coat which can be covered up...

Setting compound have the advantageous of strong bonding which I personally think it is important for many outside corner which will suffer heavy traffic and bombarment... but you cannot beat ready mixed drying type compound for this reasons: you don't need to spend time/effort to clean the hard to clean equipments on every batch... you can take your time do the mudding until it is perfect looking without worrying the mud is going to dry soon... you don't need to worry about wrong concentration by mixing yourself... if you got the mud concentration correct, you are 50% done with mudding if not more...

So for non-experience DIYers, here is what I recommend, first coat on outside corner and screwheads, setting compond... anything else, use ready mixed all purpose compound...

well this is what I think for now...


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## jadams68

Keep up the good work and thank you so much for logging all your progress in this thread... I'm entering the framing stage on Monday morning! Wish me luck!

- Jim


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## yummy mummy

*jadams68*

Good luck with your framing project.
I am also in the process of framing my basement.
I am enjoying it, whenever I get a chance.

Kuiporng, is a real help since he is documenting everything and we are learning from his experiences.

Way to to Kuiporng.


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## KUIPORNG

*outside corner mud applying trick*

Thanks for the encouragement: Yummy Mummy and jadams68...

After so doing quite some outside corner mudding, here is what I can share:

- again, first coat = setting compound

- make sure there is no screw/nail not flush with surface, this will make your mudding job 5 times easier, you will get less water wave effect

- if you are using setting compound, that stuff is really bond, that means you can get away with less fasteners, although I am sure some people out there must disagree with me on this, but I found out the setting compound is so hard it stick some of my corner which is quite loose at some part to become hard and strong...

- when put on first coat, use horizontal and veritcal application, one small length at a time, and don't worry about those not pretty surface, they will be cover up by second coat, just make sure there are no very high point you created ...

- when put on second coat, put mud on the whole length using 5" knife, then use a 10" straight head knife to sweep from top to bottom or bottom to top, at the longest length you can do...

there is a quite link which teach DIYers do mudding, I borrow some idea from it but not all:

http://www.drywallinfo.com/outsidecorners.html

don't know if Nathan will allow me to put here, just put it anyway...


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## KUIPORNG

*Too much compound (drying type) will crack*

Learning from mistakes, I found out if there are too thick a layer in the compond for one coat, it will crack easily for drying type compound, luckily, in my case, there aren't too many of those, but when laying the pre-mixed compound, don't build a thick layer with one coat, it will crack, get the thickness you need by multiple coat...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Tape Shooter experience*

I tried the Tape shooter last night, it is called somthing like Banjoe... This thing is great, it should be rewarded as one of the best construction tool design of the decade....

my experience is:

- it can tape all seams: inside corner, butted, tapered... all the similar ease

- taping vertical seam is a bit easier than horizontal

- it is fast, you can finish one seam in 2 minutes or faster if you want to be fast. 

- I tried the first one not so successful, because I didn't put enough mud in the container, the amount of mud is the driving force to put enough mud on the tape. Once I figure that out, it is as easy as eating a cake.

- Thanks to AtlanticWBConst who highly recommended this tool and I follow his advice... otherwise the counterless seams is going to be a big headache for me...

- With this tool, the outside corner is now for me consider the most difficult to tape .... rather than inside/seam..etc.

- the only challenge I can see is when taping the ceiling which I haven't try yet, I can see it being difficult as the gravity is reverse...
well, even it can only do walls, it is still $50 bucks well spent for me...


----------



## Brik

Wow - Quite a thread, chronicling your project. Keep up the good work. Also, don't nexecarily rely on homecheapo for all your supplies. They can be rediciously expensive for some things.


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Few more points to share for Tapping*

1. Buy those more expensive all-purpose muds... there are a few variaties, I find the more expensive ones get the mudding job easier... don't buy the lowest price one... I tried them all... the more expensive ones seems better...

2. always add a little bit of water and mix the mud with electric mixer rather than directly apply from the package... the mud with a bit of water and after mixed seems to be better and easier to apply

3. Instead of using different sides of knifes, and mud pans... use a 5-6" knife plus a 14x4 inch towel, only these two tools to do most of your mudding work... use the towel to hold the mud... use the knife to apply it... after all the mud almost gone from the towel, trasfer the mud from towel to knife then use the towel to run the smoothing path... and you don't need to use water to wash the tool that way... it is nice and clean... when you are done... the two tools are clean as it started... you only put in small amount of mud to the towel at a time rather than use the mud pan to carry with you a large amount which got dry out...and you need to carry so much tools around...


----------



## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

I just came across this website that has demonstrations on mudding.
You might be interested in checking it out.

www.drywallschool.com


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

BWB said:


> You should be VERY careful who you take advice from as well. I read some posts recommending pressure treated sill plates - it's against code to use PT lumber inside a house, it's toxic.
> 
> You also shouldn't strap the walls with 2 x 2's, you won't get the required R value.


Your post is very vague. It is also miss-leading and even sounds COMPLETELY miss-informed.

I suggest that you either put more thought into the wording of your posts or do more research PRIOR to making such a 'blanket or vague statement'. 

This forum is for people who need ACCURATE help and information.


----------



## BWB

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Your post is very vague. It is also miss-leading and even sounds COMPLETELY miss-informed.
> 
> I suggest that you either put more thought into the wording of your posts or do more research PRIOR to making such a 'blanket or vague statement'.
> 
> This forum is for people who need ACCURATE help and information.


Sorry for the confusion, I just realized you're in a COMPLETELY different country where codes are different. Thanks for the lesson. Keep in mind building codes, no matter where you live, are the bare 'minimum requirement', not the best alternative.

A better option than PT indoors is using a foam or poly sillgasket, or a dri-cor subfloor which gives you the dampproofing, and allows airflow at the same time. Great stuff, and no toxic leaching which is a benefit.


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

BWB said:


> A better option than PT indoors is using a foam or poly sillgasket, or a dri-cor subfloor which gives you the dampproofing, and allows airflow at the same time. Great stuff, and no toxic leaching which is a benefit.


 
It is required by CODE that all bottom sill plates or other framing members that will be attached dirctly to concrete be TREATED Lumber.

On exteiror walls, Foam sill should be used between the freezewall and the bottom treated plate. 

Again, this is REQUIRED CODE in the international building code (IBC), as well as most of the northern continenent in this area. 

Please do more research on the composition of Current approved pressure treated lumber:

The following information is off FINE HOME BUILDING's website:

Taking CCA's place as a preservative are two waterborne compounds: alkaline copper quat (ACQ types B and D) and copper azole (CBA-A, CA-B). Sold under the trade names Preserve, NatureWood, and Natural Select, they have been used around the world for up to 15 years. These EPA-approved low-toxicity pesticides resist bugs, mold, and rot as effectively as CCA.

They're safer for the environment... There's no hazardous waste produced in the manufacture of azoles and quat compounds, and lumber treated with these chemicals can be thrown away at the dump. But you still can't burn the stuff because burning copper-based preservatives produces toxic smoke and toxic ashes. And you still need to wear gloves and a dust mask when working with pressure-treated wood.


----------



## BWB

It is NOT required by code that they be pressure treated - It's required that they be protected from dampness or decay by* either* using PT, *or* poly / felt etc. There are 18 other code references regarding PT lumber in Part 9, Part 1 and Part 4.

Why have wood that you need gloves and a mask to handle in your house when there are safer alternatives? i.e. a dri-cor subfloor or plate which allows for air flow, and doesn't leave wood in contact with cement? 

Everyone should do more research on modern products and processes and not get stuck with the minimum requirements. You need to understand the full interpretation of the building codes - MINIMUM requirements are not the best building practices.


*9.23.2.3. Protection from Dampness*
* (1) *Except as permitted in Sentence (2), wood framing members that are not pressure treated with a wood preservative and which are supported on concrete in contact with the ground or _fill_ shall be separated from the concrete by not less than 0.05 mm polyethylene film or Type S roll roofing.
* (2) *Dampproofing material referred to in Sentence (1) is not required where the wood member is at least 150 mm above the ground.


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

BWB said:


> It is NOT required by code that they be pressure treated - It's required that they be protected from dampness or decay by* either* using PT, *or* poly / felt
> etc.


Ummm…yes it is required by code:

*MA 780 CMR: 2311.4.6 Posts or columns: *
Posts or columns supporting permanent structures and supported by concrete or masonry slab or footing which is in direct contact with the earth shall be approved naturally durable or _preservation-treated _wood.

You listed the ‘exceptions’ that fall UNDER ... the PRIMARY CODE. The point is, that it's clearly listed as the primary CODE requirement (with some exceptions - which you listed).

So your statement that it is ‘not required by code’ is incorrect. Again: It IS the primary Code - with some exceptions listed as a ..... sub paragraph.



BWB said:


> Why have wood that you need gloves and a mask to handle in your house when there are safer alternatives? i.e. a dri-cor subfloor or plate which allows for air flow, and doesn't leave wood in contact with cement?


Cement board is hazardous when cutting, Sanding sheetrock, sheetrock dust can be hazardous when cutting, When handling cement, thin-set, mastic, other adhesives- gloves should be worn. If you find termites or carpenter ants infesting your property, there is only one course of action: Pesticide spray...I could go on and on…
You keep bringing up Dri-Core flooring, which is a very good product. But, it is FLOORING, not framing. What does that have to do with the structural framing members attached to the concrete floor or freezewalls?
I know that Dri-core states that you can attach framing to their floor. But it is described as a 'floating' floor that needs to have room to exband and contract. I would not install framing to such a floor. I would use it in between walls.

Incidentally: Try installing something other than Pressure treated lumber as a bottom plate on top of the freezewalls of an addition or home in our area and see if it will pass any kind of inspection. Whether there is a moisture retardent layer there or not, it will not pass.


----------



## BWB

Basement wall plates are not 'posts or columns'. Building codes are interpretive, and mandate the minimum permissable practices. Read past the first sentence and find the best option, not the first one on the list. Suggest a better alternative than methods used when the codes were written.

The other products you mentioned don't leach chemicals or off-gas. Granted, PT plates won't kill anyone in the long haul, but there are better products available.

On the other hand, this is a pointless discussion, you obviously already know EVERYTHING! Cheers.


----------



## KUIPORNG

*the expert in the book still better*

After trying techniques from the famous drywall book (the most popular one if you do a search in Amazon)... and the web site for DIYers which I gave earlier... it ends up the book still better, the web site technique takes forever to do ... it may be ok if you only need to do one drywall... but not good for major project.... anyhow.... I find out the quality of the mud is extremely important... if you somehow got a bad batch.... either bad product, or bad mixing or too long ago...whatever reason... do not use them... buy different ones in the local store to try them first see which is the best.. the one I found the best are the blue paper box ones from CGC... as you are going to buy 20 buckets... finding which one is the best first rather than buy all 20 not good ones at once is a good idea... and the 4x14 towel and 6" knife.... is two fantastic tools to use together... it can almost do everything, well almost...


----------



## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Which book did you buy for drywall?

I think soon I will need to start to do some reading.

What is your 4X14 "towel".
Is this a tool?


----------



## KUIPORNG

the book I used is

*Drywall: Hanging and Taping (Paperback) *
by Myron R. Ferguson (Author) 

I saw it selling in HD as well... This books give a lot of info... I use most of them... but doesn't mean I follow it 100% either... you need to find your own personal favour from it...

the towel thing I am talking about is those with a handle underneath, it is a very common hand tool, it comes with different size, I just find 4"x14" is the most convenient size...


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## KUIPORNG

*Just did a few third coating*

I just did a few thrid coating, here is some observation:

- yes, only very thin layer of mud would be on the surface, it is so thin that it dry out a bit after you swipe them through... 

- yes, like AtlanticWBConst said, the mud should be quite dilute with water, but not too much, dilute mud when put on thin layer, have a very smooth surface.

- the book above is really work, I felt its techniques really the best way to use... 

- I find out the mudding concentration throughout the 1st,2nd,3rd coating can make your job work/easier/more difficult...etc... so use right concentration is important, on the otherhand, it is not difficult to achieve certain concentration... just add more water/mud and remix when necessary... a machine mixer is a must have, couldn't imagine using hand mixing to go through 20 or more buckets mixing...


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## KUIPORNG

*More update*

First, my mom passed away peacefully last Saturday. Although we missed her, we are glad that she does not need to suffer anymore. We believe she is going to a better place.

Back to my basement,

I got the aliked Porter Cable Drywall Sander, I don't know if it is such a good idea to invest this for sanding once event, as I did the sanding for the laundry room using pole sander, which is pretty quick, except for the dust... it is not that difficult... anyway I got it so I will use it for the rest of the area... I also find it very useful on one thing, last night I used it to sand clean the plywooded floor in the bathroom before tiling... this is quick and fast... comparing to all those hand scrapting and sweeping... you can do this in 1/20'th amount of time... so if you have a large wood flooring need to be cleaned up before tiling... this is a good tool to use as well...

Sanding, I found out sanding can really make big corrections on the surface... so make sure you don't skip this step or spend little effort on this step... 

I am going to go away from finishing the third mud for a little while as I want to complete the laundry/bath room in order to move the washer/dryer to the basement first... as the Boss want that... once I finish that, I will post picture for that.

for tiling, I changed my mind of using Ditra, as I figure there wouldn't be really wet on the floor, I am going to lay the marbles directly on the plywood after pouring some self leveling mud... using Ditra I am afraid will raise the floor too much...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

I am sorry to hear that your mother passed away.
I hope your memories will help you during this difficult time.

I am looking forward to seeing your basement pics.

Is there anything on the market that would reduce the dust when sanding?

Someone should invent something that attaches to the sander that is sort of like a vacuum cleaner that will suck up the dust as you are sanding. I would buy that, because I really hate the mess that it will create.


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

What is a pole sander?

I imagine it is a block with sandpaper on it, with a long pole?

(I know it's a stupid question.):yes:


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## KUIPORNG

*yes there is somthing in the market*

Thanks for your nice message. Yummy Mummy

Yes, there is somthing in the market to reduce dust, for what I research there are two types:

one is like pole sander but you can attach it to the vacuum at one end, this seems work well base on people's experience, except it really takes much longer to sand... it is good if you have small area to sand or you only sand a little bit a time for a long period of time

the other one is what I bought.. which is fast and vacuum dust: Porter Cable Drywall Sander.. this guy is really expensive though... I spent over $300 on it... I hope I can recover some of the cost once I finished with this guy... I don't really recommend this tool due to its high cost...


Pole sander is like you describ... it is the most common type of sanding tool... most go rectangular in shape, now there are round shape... the problem of round shape is you need to order special sanding paper from the net rather than going to HD to get it...

the vacuum is those shop vacumm to be used... regular home used vacuum in theory can be used but you don't want to abuse such delicated equipment with construction type job...


----------



## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Thanks for the information about the vacuum sander.

Do you have to attach your vacuum to it or do you have to buy a special vacuum for it?

I hope your expensive tool makes your job easier.

I plan to do my sanding and taping, a little at a time, due to my time constraints.

Thanks for the information.


----------



## Brik

The dust from a pole sander is not too bad usually. It cleans up easily.

You may also want to consider a little "wet sanding". You would just use a ever so slightly damp sponge instead of a sander. It will get things very smooth and no risk of fuzzing up the drywall paper. They make a sponge for this purpose, it has a rough side (green) and a smooth side (yellow), its about 4"x8"x1.5".

Wet sanding doesn't really remove much of the mud, it only moves it around a little. If you have way too much mud on your joints a sander may be required first.

Let me know if you want more details on the wet sanding.

(BTW - I am doing trim now, drywall done, walls painted, doors in, fireplace in. I have not yet scheduled the carpet as I'm unsure when I'll finish the trim. I need to go on a business trip for a week. Looks like, if all goes well, I will be ready for carpet in 2 weeks. Carpet is my very last thing. YEA)


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## yummy mummy

Would love to see some pics of your place brik!


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## KUIPORNG

*picture of the laundry room*

don't know how to attach a more high resolution pictures as it said max file size is 97 kbytes


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## KUIPORNG

*recreation room almost finish tapping picture*

almost done tapping recreation room...


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## yummy mummy

*kuiporng*

Fantastic job, kuiporng!

Looks really good.

I used photobucket.com to post my pics. They can be larger.
All you have to do is get an account. (free)

I really like the marble in the bathroom. Nice colour.

You're almost done.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Kuiporng,

Is that little blue chair for when you get tired?

:laughing: 

http://www.diychatroom.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=684&d=1173408735




(Just a friendly joke)


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Thanks*

Yes, Yummy Mummy, my wife also like the marble so much that she even ask could we change marble for the kitchen, although she is the one oppose in the beginning thinking it is too luxuary/expensive for basement bathroom.... anyhow... don't think we can change for kitchen because it is just too much work, not for a while at least... To be honest, though, I pick the marble only because I saw it on sale in HD somthing like $2.xx per sq.ft... and that is the only color... but may be luckily the color end up good...

you almost correct AtlanticWBConst, that chair in fact is so useful for many works I need to do at the lower position, such as fixing electrical outlet... doing somthing when there is no table ... and resting sometimes...


----------



## yummy mummy

That was a great deal on marble for $2.

Are you putting laminate on the floor of the rec room?

How many square feet is your rec. room Kuiporng?

How about you do it all marble?

(Classy, luxurious basement!)


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## KUIPORNG

marbles is too sleepy and dangereous for the kids... anyhow... but I know what you meant.... I intend to lay everything else laminate... not just the recreational room... total area I guess is approx 900 sq. ft... my recreational room area is approx 500 to 600 sq. ft...


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Apply with a roller for third coat on seams*

It is the fastest/least tire way to do it... for third coat... unfortunately, only find that possible for seams... for outside corner and inside corner, still need to use the knife to mud.... when using the roller, just put it onto the mud directly, soak it onto the mud, no need to do like painting where you need to roll against a rough surface to take away the excess before roll on the wall, this step can be ommitted when rolling mud... once rolled against the wall, a thin layer of mud will be left, then use the wide straight head to wipe the excess away.... there will be quite a lot of excess, I use put the excess onto the 14x4 trowel, then use a knife to take some of the mud onto some low spot, then wipe again with the straight head, then it is done.... you can do a long seam using this method with less than 5 minutes, not bad for a DIYer...

also no need to make the mud more dilute for the sake of using rollar, just mix it the same way as if you are using knife to mud.... roller can use with thick or thin mixing... no need to adjust for it...


----------



## Stingray

Wow , that is a quite a post Kuiporng. I am at the beginning stages of my basement remodel and I will be looking at this thread as I progress. Thank you for taking the time to detail your journey.


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## KUIPORNG

*The only advice for painting....*

I've started painting last weekend... there is only one advice:

- buy the most expensive roll, it makes big difference, it is faster and easier to paint...when you see $2, $3, $4, $7 roll, buy the $7 one... same idea for brush, get the most expensive one...


it is better to own only one good quality roll than own 5 not so good quality ones....


Another advice for sanding... get your wife to do it... it may end up like my case, she do a better job than me... I cannot imagine myself holding a small piece of sander going around different spots in the drywall to sand things to perfection... it just don't inside the blood of men... I don't know how gentlemen contractors did that either... but my wife, she is so skillfull on that... and believe or not, it makes a big difference.... sanding is so important but it is not really a men's job in my point of view.... it is more tailored for women... 

I bought the Porter Cable Alike disc sander... it is fast and not difficult to use, but can only use to sand major initial run... after than.. my next tool is "my wife"... she is my detail sander.... (hope she didn't see this message).... 


anyhow Porter Cable is very expensive sander and I only used it a bit... it save me a lot of time for the inital run... but for the $$... I intend to use it to sand other things to make it more justified... I see it can be a fast sanding tool for any large area you need to sand.... I won't sell it until I have use it more ... ....


----------



## yummy mummy

I guess then, I will be good at sanding since I am a woman and very detail oriented.

Just not looking forward to the dust. I have to buy that vaccum one.


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## KUIPORNG

my wife wear dust mask, neck covered with my son's used miltary clothing... head wearing some sort of miltary colored head .. look like some sort of combat solider... it is so interesting when I saw her, except I didn't tell her... I wonder the vacuum thing really works... my porter cable aliked sander suppose to do that... but there are too much dusts and it end up congest the filter and I didn't bother clearing them up because if you do you probably end up spending 80% of the time cleaning the filter and 20% of time sanding...


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## Brik

*Finished mine, yea!*

See http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=7379


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## KUIPORNG

*minor mudding after painting*

The bad news is :I saw some spots that shows after priming or final painting... The good news is: I found out those spots are not difficult to correct with a thin mud plus 6" knife wipe through.


----------



## jcrampton

*thanks for all your detail*

Your details will help me in my remodel.

I started my basement project last month. I hope to finish by Memorial Day. I began with just the typical unfinished basement, approx. 1000 sq. ft. Last year I had an electrician upgrade the box to 200 amp and had an HVAC contractor replace the furnace (the old one was 45 years old!). I had a plumber consult with me on adding a full bathroom to the basement. I jackhammered the floor, he laid and connected the pipes and roughed-in the new supply lines. The rest is up to me.

I'm currently in the framing portion of the remodel. Last weekend I rented a cut-off concrete saw to make the windows bigger and bring them up to code. The 3 new double-hung vinyl windows really make it look like a normal level of the house vs. a basement.

Each night I try to frame another section of wall.

Keep up the good posts!


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## KUIPORNG

*concrete cutting window opening...*

wah.... this is a lot to me... I don't know if I dare to do things like that... you must have a walk out basement I guess... which make this a bit more comfortable as there is less chance of leaking to worry about...


----------



## jcrampton

*concrete cutting for windows*

I do have a walk-out basement, so luckily I don't have to worry about groundwater runoff running into my basement windows. Still, in true DIY fashion, contractors quoted me $1000-$2000 to do what I did for less than $100 (the cost of the concrete saw rental).

I'm encouraged in my basement remodel by everyone's pictures. Unfortunately, the property values in my area do not increase as fast as Yummy Mummy's. Only by adding blood, sweat, and tears will the value increase significantly.


----------



## JimmyC

Looks really good.:thumbup:



Who said bathroom renovating isn't exciting?


----------



## KUIPORNG

*Basement Flooring*

I have done most of the laminate flooring on the basement. There are somthing to share:

- while it looks good, but laminate flooring still very different from hardwood flooring experience, one problem with it is it floats, so there are some spots which really has a floating feel(bouncing), this probably be able to be fixed by putting concrete mix below the underlayment before laying... but I doubt in reality, anyone can 100% eliminate these spots as there will always be some spots cannot be detected... when doing the leveling excerise, although I skip this step... but I doubt I can eliminate all floating spots... from the experience of my sisters' condo and my father's condo which installed by contractor, laminate flooring always has some floating spots (which bouncing a bit)... I wounder even professional can 100% eliminate these few bouncing spots completely, I heard my coworkers say they put heavy furniture on the floor which will eliminate some of these spots...

- my kids love the floor though, they already running on it and have a lot of fun, driving their car..etc... For look and maintainability, it still better than carpet in my opinion

- if I do it again... I probably will do the annoying leveling exercise... but I won't bother for now...


----------



## mcvane

*'floating' floor*

Hi There.

I am also about 60% done in my laminate flooring project for a 9x11 bedroom. It is kind of neat how everything has fallen into place it seems. The toughest part now is to stick my head into the closet to try to measure, cut and install those parts...

However, like you, I noticed a few spots are a bit more bouncy than others. However, it might have to do with the underpad? I went to Rona and found that the selection they had for underpad was greater than at Home Depot and the quality of the pad I bought was a lot more sturdy. The one I purchased is called "Comfort Walk" and it also provides a bit of R value insulation (works well for me as, the room I was doing is cold in the winter).

Anyways, the biggest problem I will likely have is getting the doorway to properly be cut and a nice entrance be framed...


----------



## KUIPORNG

Thanks for the sharing, for 100 sq. feet area... you should finish pretty fast... My next challenge is the stair to basement.. I intend to lay hardwood on it... It is going to be fun... I got my table saw today...

anyhow... a friend suggest to put heavy rug on bouncy spot of laminate floor...


----------



## mcvane

*best saw to use?*

Speaking of saws...

I kind of didn't want to spend several hundred on a table saw, so I basically have been using either my hand saw or jigsaw. However, I find that when I do use it, the laminate cuts are slightly chipped. In most cases, this doesn't matter because the cuts which are rough will be hidden under the baseboard/quarterround, but I am a bit afraid when any of these rough cuts will be 'exposed'

Any ideas or suggestions?

About laminate on stairs...man, that looks to be a challenge...I don't know how that would be done...?


----------



## KUIPORNG

the best saw to cut is Miter saw/chop saw... the best saw to divide is either table saw or circular saw... and jigsaw is indispensible in various minor irregular cut....

anyhow... I got table saw because I intend to do more than just laying laminate floor... I intend to build some furnitures (like bar table) later on... after purchasing some plans from internet...

and I do not building laminate on stairs as I know that does not last... I am building Oak hard wood on the stairs... just got most of the materials today... the one kill me is the stair Nose... two steps of this guy cost the same of 20 sq. feet of Oak hardwood... and the 12 steps stair cost me about $500 in materials... Gee... didn't know it will be that expensive for a basement stair...


----------



## mcvane

*stairs are tough*

Yes...it seems like the cost/work for the stairs is a challenge.

But when its done, I'm sure it will look nice.

I'm not that ambitious yet - I think I'd buy carpet for the stairs


----------



## KUIPORNG

*My hardwood stair adventure*

I spent 2,3 hours last night finish building the first step of my 12 steps stairs... what a adventure...

I am the first time user of both table saw and Porter Cable Finish nailer... both of these tools require some sort of brave to operate them in the beginning, especially the table saw, got to use it bare hand without guide. But it is this type of dangereous make this exercise more attractive/fun...

Anyhow, waked up at 6:00 am this morning, starting on this guy. didn't open the window at the basement, smoke alarm come off after doing a couple of table saw cut, use a big piece of sheet to circulate air hoping the alarm shut off. didn't work, find the chair and go up unplug the detector worring my wife coming down anytime holding the babies..... 

anyhow... although a lot of work. the result is satisfactory and a lot of skills learned for using table saw... next time I wear a ear piece to make it less scarely...

1 down 11 to go, that should be faster as I learn the experience for the first one...

the Porter Cable cordless nailer is super, so cool...

anyhow, this is the link of how to lay hardwood on stairs:

http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/stairs-measuring.htm


----------



## Brik

Kuiporng - 

I suggest you learn a little more about table saw operation and set-up.
There are NEVER any cuts that should be made without some type of guide. The guide is either a miter gauge or a rip fence. There are a few cuts that, unfortunately, must be made without a blade guard. I suspect your stairs cuts may not be one of them.

As for the smoke detector. You should NOT be setting off a smoke detector. This tells me of a few possible problems.
1 - you have a dull blade or wrong blade or blade is installed incorrectly.
2 - your rip fence is not adjusted properly
3 - both

What kind of cut were you making with the table saw when the smoke detector went of? Rip or crosscut? What kind of table saw do you have?

be safe - Listen to your inner voice. If a cut seems unsafe it likely is. There are safe ways to make all cuts a table saw is designed to do. Learn what they are before you proceed.


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

Brik said:


> be safe - Listen to your inner voice. If a cut seems unsafe it likely is. There are safe ways to make all cuts a table saw is designed to do. Learn what they are before you proceed.


Good safety advice...


----------



## mcvane

*smoke detectors can be sensitive*

Safety is definitely an issue, but the wood dust in the air can be a contributor to triggering the smoke alarm.

Our smoke alarm can go off when a piece of toast has become 'well done' (not burnt).

I think if you were to setup the table saw in the garage (if possible), you would avoid the mess, dust particles and smoke from going off (including alarming the little family members of your house!).

I have found that when cutting the laminate floor planks in my current project, I measure and mark the cut spot and take the plank to the garage and do my cut. I know it is a pain and it is more time consuming to go back and forth, but I really don't want dust in the air inside the home!

If you can do that, it might be more helpful.

Be safe and successful in the project.


----------



## KUIPORNG

Thanks for the advice for table saw, here is the situation,

I have craftsman 10 inch 3 amp table saw
When I use the guide, I find hard to made the wood not to deviate a little bit from the lean against guide.
Also some time the cut is not a 90 degree cut, it is easier to do free hand, and yes, I take off the protection shield as it let me see clear. and sometimes you only need to trim 1/8 of a inch or smaller, for that, do you still use guide?...

I do wear a safty glass though.

I will try to take your advice to use guide somehow... thanks...

as I am cutting Oak, pretty hard, there are black mark at the cut due to heat, that probably cause smoke, I think one reason is I didn't open the window which I do now...

Dust control is definitely an issue in renovation. but I probably won't go that far to run to garage.. you are talking about up and down a 12 steps stair... I probably should put some encloser plastic to protect the finished area though...


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## Brik

Yea, your saw is out of adjustment. A 3AMP say is very small. Sure its not a 3HP saw?

I cant give you specific advice for making adjustments on your particular saw. Go over to woodnet and ask if you do not have the manual for making the adjustments I describe. http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php (power tools section)

First, make sure the blade is exactly parallel to the miter slot. Second, make sure the rip fence is exactly parrallel to the blade and the miter slot.

It sounds like you are also making cross cuts. You never use the rip fence and the miter gauge at the same time. Your miter gauge is designed so you can set an angle if you need to. You can attach a longer piece of wood to it to make it easier to cross cut larger pieces. 

To adjust the blade you may need to either loosen bolts on the table or adjust the "trunion" from below the table. To adjust the fence will be done on the fence itself but will vary depending on what fence you have.

Bottom line - You should never have any burning of wood when you cut and you should always have the wood supported on either the fence or miter gauge, not both.

Also, may I suggest you get this book
http://www.amazon.com/Table-Saw-Book-Completely-Revised/dp/1561584266


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## KUIPORNG

yes it is not 3amp, it is 3 HP... and thanks for all the advice... I do have a neighbour who is very good at wood working... after hearing from you... I probably do the easiest, invite him to my home to see if I need to tune and how to tune, may ask him how to use the table saw ...etc. I will also read those link when I have time...

Thanks a lot...


Also, I have a cheap chop saw, I found when it cut, it does not leave a perfect cut like the table saw, so I cross cut a bit more with the chop saw, then use the table saw to fine tune it....

Also, I think I did use the guide most of the time, the "rip fence ", I seldom use the "miter gauge" because when I use the "miter gauge" to push forward the wood, the wood do not go straight... so that is what I mean I use free hand... I try to use the "rip fence" most of the time though, only when I am triming I use nothing.... Does that sound better? I didn't know you don't use the "miter gauge" and the "rip fence" at the same time...


I just order the book, thanks again Brik...


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## KUIPORNG

*Revisiting Tablesaw*

This morning I used the tablesaw again with the precautions I didn't take as I learned somthing yesterday... This time the experience is much better. I did feel more safe when using the tool and feeling that I found the tool be so useful on various things... I wouldn't be surprise this tool is the "most important" tool when working with wood...

anyhow, what I did this morning to make it more safe is:

- lower the blade so that it kind of just enough to cut the material
- put on the protection shield in most cuts.
- wear my ear piece

I still need to use free hand without guide though when try to dividing a long piece of laminate... I don't think you can use any guide because it is too thin to reach the fence and too long to use the other guide... free hand is the only possible option and I don't think it is dangerous as it is so long and your hand is so far away from the blade....


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## barnsng

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Good safety advice...


 
I agree with AtlanticWBConst. Safety comes first


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## Brik

KUIPORNG said:


> I still need to use free hand without guide though when try to dividing a long piece of laminate... I don't think you can use any guide because it is too thin to reach the fence and too long to use the other guide... free hand is the only possible option and I don't think it is dangerous as it is so long and your hand is so far away from the blade....



Describe better the cut you are trying to make. A rip cut is cutting a long board length wise. A cross cut is cutting a board across the narrow side.

What you are risking (a very serious risk) is something called kick back. I have seen pieces of wood thrown 10 feet away and stuck into drywall walls. I have personally had kickback and has a small piece of wood (about 1"x1"x2") come back and hit me in the gut causing a huge welt. 

Describe the size of the piece and the size of the piece after the cut. I'm positive I can tell you how to do it safely without doing it freehand. What model saw do you have?


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## KUIPORNG

Hi Brik,

Thank you for your wellingless to help. Here is the information. I usuall don't cut or trim short piece of wood as there is little to grap for those... I usually make sure the piece of wood I am handling is at least 8 or 9" in length and prefer longer... I think the one I mention free hand here is for cross cut as you state... I know I can use the gate to adjust the angle so that I don't need to do free hand.... I sometimes still do freehand to try to save the trouble... but anyhow... I seems more comfortable with the tool now... and will keep safety in mind.... the model I have is :SEARS CRAFTSMAN 10" TABLE SAW MODEL# 137.218100


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## KUIPORNG

*An update and somthing about stairs/doors...*

I have finished installing the hardwood stairs and 4 doors. here something to share:

- hard wood stairs really time consuming to install but I think it is a entertaining and worth project. I have 8 steps nose with finished nails and first 2 steps without nails at all.. the without nails nose seems be able to stand up strong... I don't want to nail them because of part of my curoristy seeing if nose without finish nailing can surivive like the instructions said...

- for doors, it is really piece of cake to install.. but one advice is: when doing rough opening, make sure you know what type of door you are going to install, whether those regular hinge type or sliding/byfold types... as the rough opening for them are different even for standard 30x80 size... the hinge types require 2" extra but the other type does not... this preplaning can save you expensive custom doors $$.

- for hinge door, those pre-hinged easy fit door is a beaty to install... so easy/fast, can be done in one hour for first time installer like me... this guy can really change the way door installation used to be so difficult and only professional can do it.... forget to mention... I do have a cutting edge tool though: Porter Cable Cordless Finish Nailers... gee.. holding this tool make me feel like holding the best gun in the cowboy movie...

I know I should post some pictures... but my wife took some pictures but unable to put them in the new Vista O/S from uncle Bill... anyhow... I become handicap with electronic equipment like the new sony camera my wife purchased reasonaly from US.... anyhow... I will start moulding very soon... after that.. for sure will post pictures ...


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## kevicoll

*firestops and fireblocks*

Friends,

Scanned your thread, did I miss discussion of fireblocks? I built in Rhode Island where they are very sensitive to this issue. Didn't learn about fireblocks until after the walls were up, would have been much easier if I did it first. Some good info:

http://www.hopkinsmn.com/inspections/building/fireblocking.html

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/publications/basements/details.pdf

Happy building.


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## mcvane

*table saw recommendation*

Since there was a lot of info regarding table saws/saws in general on this thread, can someone take a look at this link and suggest if this is a good deal?

I'm in Canada and the Canadian Tire has a sale on.

www.canadiantire.ca (it's under the TOOLS section on the bottom right)

Thanks.


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## KUIPORNG

I used Craftsman table saw for my laminate floor and hardwood stairs... and find it excellant.... the one in Canadian Tire is good price for sure. Except the brand is Mastercraft which is kind of a bit lower than Craftsman in terms of quality in general. However, if you are not making furniture... for just rough cutting... may be it is good enough... I spent $26 on a Table saw book (kind of a mistake, as I really don't need that much info)... for entertainment, I browse the book a bit and learn quite some knowledge regarding tablesaw.... the bottom line is, if you are kind of a home owner seldom use it... the one in Canadian Tire shoud do it... but if you are a die hard wood worker or intend to be... go for some better brand for confidence/image/presidge ..etc. reason... I do own an inexpensive master craft miter saw and it works great though...for my purposes may be...


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## KUIPORNG

*Final Baseboard done*

I have finished the basement finally. final advices for baseboard installation:

- paintable caulking can perform magic to hide a lot of inperfections... that is why it is critical to use white baseboard as you can match the caulking easily....

- I even use caulking alone to attached short baseboards and avoid nailing/screws... (thanks for the tips from send_it_all)

- coping with angle grinder is nice but always leave black mark on the baseboard due to smoke/burn...master tape it before cutting is a good idea...

- use caulking and random nail the baseboard at few ponts seems the best way to attach the baseboard if you want to be quick and avoid stud finding...

Last night, I took some pictures but after my children mess up the play room... so will wait until my wife tidy up the basement to post as I promised.... 


Now I need to convince my wife to do ceiling moulding in the future... she still laugh at me when I mention it...


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## yummy mummy

Congratulations Kuiporng!
You finished your basement yourself.

How do you plan to do the ceiling moulding?
I bet it will look really nice.

Tell your wife not to laugh.
She will love it.

I'm still framing. I only have one duct to frame in and then some electrical hook up, and then I will be ready for drywall.

I find it difficult to find the time to do it in the summer as opposed to winter.
There is too much to do outside, kids, etc.......
Parties to go to, BBQs, etc......

Great job. 
I can't wait to see the pics.


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## send_it_all

What an honor to be in your closing credits.....you're very welcome:thumbsup:


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## send_it_all

If your angle grinder is leavingskid marks on your base...you need a coarser sanding disk....like a 40 grit flap disk....no skid marks but watch your fingers, it removes material fast.


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## mcvane

*Congratulations*

Congratulations on your massive accomplishment Kuiporng! This kind of work is not easy, especially for some of us who are non-professionals, but who like to try and learn.

I learned a lot just from this thread! By the way, is there going to be a sequel to this movie?


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## KUIPORNG

Here goes to the pictures of my basement

http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/kuiporng/

the playroom is in use and kids and us has a lot of fun over there... it is actually bigger than it looks from the picture...

the entertaining room have a lot of stuff laying around because I need to renovate the cold room a bit to house my equipments and empty out the stuff over there for now... I hope one day I will be watching a big screen projector movie over there. It has exactly 12' depth, should work with projector.

For the sequent, if any, in my mind is the deck, I hope I can build a professionally looked deck. We still fear small animals will build nest underneath the deck though, need to do more research, may be project of next year..


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## yummy mummy

Kuiporng:

AMAZING-
Excellent work kuiporng.
You are now a "professional".

Enjoy it with your family.
And thanks for all of your advice and help that you have given me.
Now, I hope that you don't plan on disappearing from this forum as I still need your help and advice for a long time still.

Now you need to start another project?
:thumbsup:


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## yummy mummy

Is that some type of moulding that you put in the corners between ceiling and wall?


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## KUIPORNG

I think you refer to crown moulding ... they are for beatiful cosmetic only... and not really for basement ... so in my basement there isn't any.

I was thinking to put those in my first floor living/family/kitchen though one day... when my wife get her CPA license... my youngest daugther (which I have most faith on) find a money making carreer and decide to give some to her dad...etc....


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## Brik

Wow, all those soffits, angles and different ceiling heights. What a pain.

A few suggestions for others. Don't take this as badmouthing you, KUIPORNG.

One can avoid some of the differing ceiling heights and soffit maze Kuiporng has by moving, adjusting and relocating some obstructions. This will not completely eliminate the need for soffits but can minimize, sometimes, differing heights.

Also, if the gain in only an inch or two, I am of the opinion its better to just make a straight soffit. For example, in this picture








I would personally have just run the soffit straight across.

The reason to run straight across is to minimize drywall cuts and to give a cleaner finish look. if you like the look, appreciate the headroom, and do not mind the extra work then you have done the right thing.


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## KUIPORNG

I totally agree with you Brik... in fact.. I remember I mention somthing similar in some messages above... that is why experience count... 

I said a lot of XYZ$%&^#^ when I mudding those soffet... and definitely will go with the route you talked about if I ever done another soffet in my life time....

for the example you given above though, there is a window behind the soffet making straight not possible... but the idea I agree 100%


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## 9728

Hi Kuiporng.......I noticed you had sliding doors on one of your walls........I'm creating a storage space and the entrance will be the 72"WX80"H sliding doors from HD........seeing as you seem to be a frequent visitor to HD I'm assuming this is where you got your's.......
My question is, what was the actual size of the doors when you got them home - meaning, would a 72" opening be all I should leave when I build the wall across the room to accomodate the 72"door.......or do I need to leave an extra inch or two on either side like you would for a standard door.......what did you find???..........

Pat


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## KUIPORNG

Hi Pat the Dad, very good question, don't make the mistake like I do which end up I spent $60 bucks for custom made sliding door had I did the homework like you are trying to do now. OK, here is the points you need to note:

- sliding door normally install on finished wall (drywalled) so this is different from regular door which have rough opening etc.etc. so your measurement must the between finished surfaces including wall to wall and wall to floor measurements.

- width-wise speaking is not a big issue as sliding door has a range for width somthing like good for opening from xx inches to yy inches and a lot of acommodation... 

- length-wise speaking, it is a different story. there isn't much tolerance, but they do come with two different size.... 

I cannot give you the exact number off my head but consider you probably live in a different city as mine, you better off visit HD once and write down the measurement from there. As what we sell here probably manufactured locally from some warehouse which may be different from your states.

Hopes this help... if you insist being lazy to check it out... 80" length I think is kind of the standard. width really flessible as long as you are not way too wide or way too narrow....

one more point, make sure the opening is as square as possible and have solid wood support (good width) at the header, otherwise, the sliding door cannot be installed easily and may not slide good.... but like everything, there is a tolerance, just try your best... I made a bit of mistake at that as well as my sliding door is right below a support steel beam of the house... I had hard time finding spot to screw in my upper track which is the main weight support... but luckily there do have one thin strip which can hole screws.... I consider myself so lucky... I could have waste $180 for the doors...


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## 9728

Thanks Kuiporng.........I actually live in Ottawa so wherever these doors are made they are probably the same ones that get shipped up here to HD..........80" height is what I'm going with and a 72" width......so it sounds like with an 80" door the finished opening needs to be pretty exact (80") or is their like a 1/2 inch tolerance???? And width wise if the opening is 72" there will still be enough for the doors to cover it???

Pat


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## KUIPORNG

Hi Pat, 

I think 1/2" probably ok... because it is really small and they do have tolerance...

for 72" width... that should be no problem... also.. they sell in different width set... I am there will be sure one set cover that.

it is again really the length, they only have two standard, one is somthing like 80" the other is somthing like 82".... but be honest... I cannot remember and the one installed in my home is a non-standard custom made one... So if you want 100%, please take a look at HD's existing stock next time you are there....

Good luck and enjoy your project....


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## 9728

no worries there Kuiporng........it's definitely 72" width (it was the widest they had - in stock anyway)......thanks again


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## Brik

Hey - Its been a while since I chimed in on this forum. I got my email saying this thread was responded to and I thought I would jump in.

For doors (Interior, exterior, pre-hung, sliders) and windows for that matter.

What I do is get the required doors and windows on the project site BEFORE the framing. This can be a pain, storage wise. The reason is I want to measure the actual door or window. I am of the opinion that the documented rough openings on the packages and documentation from the manufacturer is way too generous and makes it awkward to shim. Those large rough openings are there to accommodate for grossly out of square/plumb openings.

Us DIYers tend to go slower and check every little thing for plumb. When we do that we do not need those large openings as suggested by the mfg.

So, again, what I do is get the door first and measure it. I ignore the mfgs suggestion for a rough opening.

If the door being discussed is a bi-fold door that goes into a finished opening then I make sure the finished opening is exactly what is specified.


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## KUIPORNG

*It's done a year ago.*

got some photo before but accidentally erases them in photobucket....anyhow... it is a ok job... for regular home... not bad.... not for the state of art expensive renovation though... for everyday usage it servers its purpose.... would look better if I got $$ to furnished it better ... anyhow... I will try to retake some photos and post it again...


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