# J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.



## Spud (Apr 23, 2008)

Hello

I am thinking of applying cultured stone veneer to the exterior. The instructions I have seen soo far from *Owens Corning* and *Boulder Creek Stone* state to first *apply Flashing / J-Weep 4 " above grade* followed by a water resistant barrier (something like Tvyek*?*) then metal lathe then mortar scratch coat then the stone veneer buttered with mortar.

Instructions from *Boulder Creep Stone* for stone veneer installation.
http://www.bouldercreekstone.com/documents/StoneInstallation.pdf

Instruction from *Owens Corning* for stone veneer installation.
http://www.culturedstone.com/technical/flashingdetail1.asp

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Now these cultured stone veneers unlike full brick veneers don't require a an air gap between brick wall and the sheathing/housewrap

The Owens Corning instructions shows the WRB lapped over the flashing.
*
My question is where does the moisture collect to run down the flashing since there is no air cavity/gap anywhere ?

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*I am planning on replacing my exterior sheathing with the below sheathing product which does NOT require a housewrap. Found out about this on _Contractor Talk forum_ and it has good reviews by the pros.

http://huberwood.com/

The thread on the above sheathing
http://www.contractortalk.com/f4/anyone-use-product-yet-sheathing-38512/

Since the above sheathing requires no housewrap, I need to know if I even need a J-Weep / Flashing and the moisture discharge issue.

Thanks


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Spud, there are many ways to address the underlayment for cultured stone, but only a few that are ideals IMO. Kudos to you for looking into this BEFORE starting the project.

IMO, the absolute best procedure is to use a system like this:http://www.mtidry.com/hyperspecs/hyperspec.php?id=01ST02WD003

As another option, you can use:
- 2 -layers of WRB, alternating joints. (If tyvek exists over sheathing already, just put 1 additional layer of tarpaper over.)
- A product like Tyvek Drainwrap, which allows for small drainage channels behind the wall.
- Install a simple plastic weep screed at the base of the wall, either designed for EIFS or Cultured stone.
- Study all illustrations at MTI for window & penetration flashings to get an idea of how to keep the water out.

BTW, I would NOT recommend laying any masonry directly against normal Tyvek. There's evidence out now that direct contact to mortar can disinegrate Tyvek. As a matter of fact, as of April 1 this year, our code was updated to require 15# tarpaper min. behind all residential masonry.

Kind of funny how there was a false sense of security connected to Tyvek, like it was some "cure all" in modern construction, & now we seem to be going back to the old reliable tar paper.

Kind of scary to think there are hundreds of thousands of homes with Tyvek & flashings (or lack of) that will severly limit the lifespan of the masonry veneer over it. It's actually kind of sad, as most full masonry veneer should see a lifespan of 100-300+ years, but will be lucky to see 10-20 years due to improper prep bhind it.

Spud, this may seem like overkill, but your really investing a little more to insure the veneer application, & ultimately the house in which it's installed.


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## Spud (Apr 23, 2008)

Hello

Much thanks for reponding. I made a thread (on vaulted ceiling insulation) here like a week ago and got no response so seeing you reply with a detailed post is great.

I am also in Wisconsin, Waukesha to be exact. 

The house is 50-60s era ranch single story. I don't even know if any housewrap was used. The front of the house has a mix of partial full real brick siding and complete (from ground to roof) brick siding . All there is behind the brick in the partial section is a 1" air cavity and homasote sheathing .

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Question
Is WRB considered housewrap?

About the *Sure Cavity* , is that considered a housewrap?
Is it a water resistant barrier?

On the "How to install Sure Cavity"
it says "Construction paper, Sure Cavity™ and metal lath to extend down over top of foundation wall a minimum of 2"." What is this construction paper they are talking about?

The pictorial doesn't mention all the components that go after the OSB/Plywood sheathing so am I right in the below understanding?

OSB/Plywood sheathing--->Sure Cavity--->Metal lathe---->Scratch coat mortar---->Stone siding with mortar setting.

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If I used that *Huberboard *product* Zip Wall system*, can and do I need to still use Sure Cavity or an alternative like Tvyek Drainwrap?
If I use Sure Cavity or Drainwrap over the Zip Wall system will it create a moisture problem where moisture is trapped between 2 moisture barriers (which I hear is a big NO NO) since the Zip Wall system is "*ZIP System® wall sheathing has a built-in, water-resistive barrier that lets you say goodbye to housewrap forever"

*http://huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagename=zipsystemwalloverview

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Going off on a tangent but related. I tried to enroll for Masonry class at Milwaukee Area Technical College but couldn't because the classes are only available to those in the Masonry program which had it's registration deadline in Spring for this Fall classes. So I am within the next couple of hours gona see if Waukesha County Technical College will allow me to take Masonry classes though I doubt it as they also require being in a program.

Thanks for the reply.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Spud said:


> Hello
> 
> Much thanks for reponding. I made a thread (on vaulted ceiling insulation) here like a week ago and got no response so seeing you reply with a detailed post is great.
> 
> ...


Spud, have I got a deal for YOU!

You pay ME the tuition, come work for me for 3 weeks (no pay of course!), & I can guarantee YOU that you have taken more away than any Tech School semester! JUST KIDDING! :laughing:

After 3 weeks with me & my crew, you'll probably decide to just hire this job out!


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

I simply consider faux stone products to be the finish coat of a three-coat cementious stucco system and case, flash, and weep accordingly.


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## Spud (Apr 23, 2008)

> _*No, anything but a WRB. It's design is to allow water thru the front to the back, & it merely serves as an un-obstructed channel to get any water to the base of the wall, & out from behind the wall as fast as possible.*_


Does water pass straight through the front *and* also through the back side of the Sure Cavity or does it just pass through the front then enters the channels *but* does NOT pass through the back side? Is the back side a WRB?

So using a Sure cavity , a wall would look like this?

Sheathing--->Flashing (bottom only) ---->Tvyek/Housewrap---> Tarpaper---->Sure Cavity---->Metal Lathe---->mortar scratchcoat----->Stone Veneer buttered with setting mortar

Does there need to be a housewrap like Tvyek *and* Tarpaper or will Tarpaper alone suffice?
--------------------------------------------

I talked to a technical Info representative at Huberboard about their Zip Wall System Board and installation of Stone Veneer Siding.

The Rep. on the phone said flashing directly onto their Wallboard then taped with *Zip Sealing Tape* over the top edge of the flashing would suffice but he emailed me their installation practice and It says:

Install flashing directly on top of *Zip Wallboard* then tape with *Zip sealing tape *lapped over top edge of flashing then *Water Resistant Barrier* for entire wall area . Dam it, I thought I could just forgo the WRB!

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Reading your response , I understand I need to use tarpaper if Tvyek is used as it is best practice and also now Wis. code. You mention that Tarpaper is a WRB so this would satisfy the Zip Wallboard installation requirement for a WRB between mortar and the wallboard.

I got interested in the Zip system because it does away with a housewrap/WRB . With a housewrap/WRB I think I would have to remove the windows so the WRB/Housewrap can be folded into the window opening??, something I am not keen on doing.

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I am seriously considering ditching the cultured Stone Veneer siding idea because due to weather I am not sure I can accomplish it all , with this daily rain and soon to come cold weather. Especially if I have to remove windows to install tarpaper/WRB and the Sure Cavity requires flashing around windows. Just the short time window is putting me off . 

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I currently just have partial full brick siding on the front, was thinking of just making it total front brick siding. There are no veep holes for this brick siding so I would have to knock it down then install flashing then brick it up. I don't like the color of the brick anyways so knocking it down isn't a big deal for me.

Reason I was looking at the Stone Veneer is 
a) like the Stone (flagstones) look over brick
b) can do the sides of the house without need for a concrete footing, currently sides of house has no concrete footing/foundation past the walls.

I don't know how to build a concrete footing, which is a requirement for full brick siding. I assume the front has this footing since it already has full brick siding.

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Whew soo many questions and typing. Thanks for patiently addressing my queries.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

*Problems with manufactured stone (faux stone) at home inspections in the Chicago area*

A word of caution: manufactured stone *as it is often actually installed *is regarded by some water intrusion inspectors (myself included) as the next EIFS, especially when installed at frame construction and over conventional sheathing and vapor retarders... only it's often a _*lot*_ more expensive, time consuming, messy and destructive to diagnose problems behind faux stone than behind EIFS, for example moisture meters don't work through manufactured stone, you have to drill and probe, or remove sections of material to determine what's happening below the stone.

See, for example: http://www.impressionsinstone.biz/IIS-InstallationBestPractices.pdf


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

:thumbsup:

GREAT POST MIKE


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## Spud (Apr 23, 2008)

Michael Thomas said:


> See, for example: http://www.impressionsinstone.biz/IIS-InstallationBestPractices.pdf


That is scary.

I haven't even looked at flashing for windows for cultured Stone Veneer.

Makes me lean more and more towards sticking with the full brick veneer siding with the 1" air cavity. 

Do I still need flashing for windows with full brick veneer siding? Since the house only has full brick veneer going up to waist level for most of the front, it doesn't reach the bedroom windows but the living room window has brick on the bottom and on 1 side. I'll post a pic soon to better explain.

Edit, picture


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If you apply it as I said, all of those issues are addressed by long proven methods. It is NOT EIFS and it is NOT a new system. It is a finish coat for a traditional 3 coat cementious stucco wall system. Done to those specifications, there are no issues remotely similar to EIFS, which can have issues even when it is applied to it's own standards.

Comparing the 2 is not a valid statement.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> I simply consider faux stone products to be the finish coat of a three-coat cementious stucco system and case, flash, and weep accordingly.


Manufactured stone is a very different system from hard coat stucco, for example stucco is self supporting, while faux stone often requires mechanical support.

For example, here's what what happens when a builder assumes that manufactured stone can be treated as as an adhered, self-supporting material like the three coat stucco above it, with a continuous drainage plane behind them.









Fig 1 Water table support and flashing as specified.









Fig 2 Water table as built, tilting back toward the wall as its suport failed, no flashing to top exterior surface of table and incorrect support.

My point is not that it _cannot _be done properly, my point is that it _is not_ done properly - that average contractors have a great difficulty properly installing even much simpler systems, and real-world when you specify more complicated systems, you are specifying failure.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Begging your pardon, but that detail is not done according to specifications for 3 coat stucco. I do not reacall stating that you should use faux stone manufacturers details, I thought I was clear that you should not.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

And just as an FYI, it doesn't matter what system you use, if you do it wrong, that is not an indicator of the capabilities of the system.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> Begging your pardon, but that detail is not done according to specifications for 3 coat stucco. I do not reacall stating that you should use faux stone manufacturers details, I thought I was clear that you should not.


I'm perhaps getting a bit confused as this discussion has run across several posts.

Are you recommending that installers disregarding the manufacturer's installation instructions, and installing faux stone materials as though they were a three coat stucco system?


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> And just as an FYI, it doesn't matter what system you use, if you do it wrong, that is not an indicator of the capabilities of the system.


Well, that was certainly the initial position taken by the EIFS manufactures...


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Spud said:


> Does water pass straight through the front *and* also through the back side of the Sure Cavity or does it just pass through the front then enters the channels *but* does NOT pass through the back side? Is the back side a WRB?
> 
> *The Sure Cavity or Drainwrap merely form a drainage plain behind the stone system. Any water is intended to drain thru or behind (against the second layer of tarpaper) the drainage plain & out @ the bottom of the wall.*
> 
> ...


*No problem, I merely want to help you & others understand that cultured stone isn't as simple as it may appear, but is attainable with correct understanding & preperation. :thumbup:*


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

That is exactly what I am advocating, Jomamma. The EIFS manufacturers were correct Michael Thomas. That is a very technical system, and unless done exactly right, and in only the correct application locations, it will fail. The same is true of an adhered veneer, with the following caveat: Treated as the finish coat of a traditional 3-coat cementious stucco wall system, the veneer stone will neither create or cause any issues.

As always, the devil is in the details.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Tscar, I know next to nothing about any stucco system, as it's not very common in this area. The few jobs that were done years ago were done by plasterers, & not masons. Now, it seems to be all EIFS. 

I did a search for 3 coat stucco systems & found this link below. If this is what you would recommend, I would tend to agree. The only thing I would add would be the Drainwrap or Sure Cavity type product over the tarpaper layer for added insurance.

http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/topics/exterior-finishes/stucco-3-coat.aspx

I would also agree that the wall should be water-proof BEFORE the lath is installed. Cultured Stone is far too porous, & the joints (or lack thereof) can contain many areas for water to enter.

There is one other issue I should mention that lead WI to add tarpaper to the code recently. Example: Rain soaks the masonry wall (brick, cultured stone, whatever it is), sun eventually bakes on the wall when damp, water in stone heats up & eventually becomes VAPOR, & vapor gets driven thru the Tyvek to the interior, now colder, side of the wall. As we know, Tyvek cannot stop vapor, as it is intended only to stop actual water.

Spud, you could use the above link (up to the second coat & minus the control joints) to give yourself a better idea of how to properly prep the wall.


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## jeffsayers (Sep 1, 2009)

Here are a couple new systems you might want to investigate:

www.tru-brix.com
www.fusionstone.ca

They may not have the same look you are going for, but they are mechanically sound and pretty simple to install.


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