# Water seeped through tiles in shower, wall ruined, need help.



## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hello.
After finding water in the basement, I found out water has been seeping through cracks in the grout in the shower, and has pretty much ruined the whole back wall. This wall is facing outside, ie it's outside on the other side of the wall. The beams and insulation appears to be dry. Pretty much the whole wall was wet, so we took it all down. A little part of the wall the shower is on is wet, about 1' x 1'. Opposite wall looks fine.

We decided since it needs to be fixed, we'll probably put up new tile anyways, and possibly get a new tub since we are doing all this work.

What do I need to do?
I read we should use some type of cement board, but how does cement board work? Would I just use cement board as high as I will be tiling? Or do I use cement board right to the ceiling?

What do I do about the 1'x1' piece that is wet? Cut it out and replace it? Or should I be replacing all parts of the shower walls with some type of cement board instead?

Also there are some screws in the very corner on the edge, that I guess were put in as that wall was the first wall installed. How can I get those screws out? They are sticking out about an inch.

Pictures attached.
Red is the water on the shower wall, blue is the screws.
Thank you for any guidance. I'm not very handy so simple terms is best for me 
Please move to appropriate forum if this isn't the one, had no idea where to put it.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Looks like a total re-do is in order. Cement backerboard will be what you need. You only install it where you're going to tile, and slightly overlap the top and outside tiles over mold resistant sheetrock. 

You install 1/2" cement board with special backerboard screws. After installing the board, you must mud and tape the seams with fiberglass mesh backerboard tape and thinset. It does not have to look good, but must be done at all seams and corners to prevent cracking. The backerboard will come right to the new tub's lip, but not touching or overlapping. This gap should be caulked before tiling.

After that, the backerboard must be waterproofed, because as you now know, tile and grout are not waterproof. Backerboard won't be harmed if it gets wet repeatedly, but the wall it is mounted on will mold for sure. The easiest method is a product called RedGuard, which is a paint on red goop that will keep moisture from penetrating the backerboard. It is applied with a brush or roller to the exposed face and all the seams and corners. If you skip this step, you'll be replacing the entire shower again in a few years.

Another alternative to RedGuard is an applied membrane called Kerdi. It is awesome stuff and will never leak. It is pricey, but can be done by a DIYer if they do their homework. Youtube has some Kerdi videos. It is the best system out there in my opinion.

You'll use thinset to attach your new tiles. Don't buy the pre-mixed crap. Use good quality dry mix thinset. For walls, I really like the non-sag thinset that you can get at tile supply shops. Combined with spacers, it makes it easier to keep the tiles in place while the thinset dries. The trowel you'll use depends on the size of tiles. 

If you come across questions, we're here to help.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

It is also an opportune time to replace the plumbing in the shower, since you'll be tearing the existing wallboard down.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

The screws can probably be backed out with a screwdriver. If not, bend and break them with pliers. 

All the wallboard has to go. The only wallboard that should be left in place is the stuff that won't have tile on it. Sheetrock wallboard should never, never be used behind tile in wet applications.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Awesome thank you very much.
I think you answered every single question and concern I had.
One more question actually, what does one cut cement board with? Actually, what all types of saws would I need?
Also, what type of screws for the mold resistance sheetrock (above the tiling)?
Also, is the cement board the same thickness as the wallboard? And would I put the fibreglass mesh tape on the gap of the cementboard and wallboard/sheetrock?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

doogie88 said:


> One more question actually, what does one cut cement board with?
> You can score it with a utility knife and then break it, but it is a pain. I prefer to install an inexpensive abrasive masonry blade in my circular saw and cut it that way. It makes crazy amounts of dust, but cuts very cleanly that way. Holes for plumbing are made by scoring the face of it with a knife and hitting it with a hammer when it is laying flat on your garage slab or another flat surface. A $15 drywall square makes cutting straight lines much easier.
> 
> Actually, what all types of saws would I need?
> ...


Hope this clears everything up. Feel free to ask any other questions you encounter!


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thank you!
You are unbelievable!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

You're welcome. Have fun with it.


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## jonblack (Sep 19, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> ... The backerboard will come right to the new tub's lip, but not touching or overlapping. This gap should be caulked before tiling..


Why is it that you don't want this to touch or overlap?

jonblack


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Because if water gets under the Caulk, it will weep up the board. The same when you place Drywall in a basement, or with a chair rail, leave a small gap, especially with the Chair rail. You would only have to replace the lower 4', not all if there is water damage on the lower part.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

One more quick question.
There is about 3" beside the tub, to the flooring, that had tile on it. Should I just keep that as drywall or whatever it is? Or should I somehow cut that out and put the cement board there? If so, what do I do if there is nothing to nail it into?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Anything that Tile will be adhered to, should be Cement Board, and everything else, should be Paperless Gypsum. Personally, I would gut the whole Bathroom, and do it right, which is what we will have to do with ours, in order to get rid of all of the tile in it, and redo the wiring.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

But I mean it is like a 3" x 15" piece I need to put cement board in. How do I cut it for that? and what do I screw it into if there is no beam there?

Also, what do I put on the seam of the cement board and mold resistant sheetrock? And should I be cutting out the sheetrock where the shower head is, above where the tile is going to go and put mold resistant sheetrock there? Or just keep the sheetrock there?

And how do I cut out holes for the bath spout and handles in the cement board?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

doogie88 said:


> But I mean it is like a 3" x 15" piece I need to put cement board in. How do I cut it for that? and what do I screw it into if there is no beam there?
> If it is not in a wet area and the sheetrock is in good shape, there's no reason you can't stick tile to sheetrock. Just do a very good job of caulking the tub to the tile. If it is a wet area, cut out the sheetrock and install the necessary wood blocking to fasten replacement backerboard and sheetrock to. Your seams should always land on studs or blocking.
> 
> Also, what do I put on the seam of the cement board and mold resistant sheetrock?
> ...


And FYI...Mold resistant paper faced sheetrock is the industry standard for bathrooms, provided it isn't used in wet areas. Unless you feel like taking on the task of sheetrocking the entire room, I don't see any reason to gut the bathroom completely. Taping and finishing drywall properly takes a heck of a lot of skill, and isn't something I'd suggest doing unless you need to. I'd take care of that shower area and call it good. :yes:


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thank you so much for your thorough answers, and patience with me! I appreciate it so much.
Okay, I have some pictures. I took all the wall down in the shower.
But, I don't know how far to go? To the next beam?

1) The sheetrock beside the tub turned out to be wet and mushy, as well as much more of it, as you will see. Should I cut out right to the next beam, which I guess would be a couple feet? And put the moisture resistant sheetrock from that beam to the one at the shower? then put the concrete board for the rest? The boards you see beside the beams now, are not very sturdy.

2) My floor is ruined, wet from a week ago, and warped/bubbling, do I need to replace my whole floor (floorboard?)? My bathroom IS pretty small. 8' x 5' I believe. Or could I just cut out 2 1/2' and put a sheet of concrete board there?

3) What do I used to cut the wall straight and level so I can match up the new moisture resistant sheetrock with it? Drywall saw?

4) The plastic covering the insulation now has some holes in it form all the screws. Are those important? Do I need to patch them up or replastic? Or the face that I will have sealed concrete board be ok?

Thank you so much!


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Ok Doogie88, we've got to get some terminology right. The vertical 2x4's in your walls are called studs. Beams are horizontal and support your floor, roof, and ceiling. When we refer to studs, you gotta know what we mean! :yes: Not trying to pick on you. (well, maybe a little)



doogie88 said:


> Thank you so much for your thorough answers, and patience with me! I appreciate it so much.
> Okay, I have some pictures. I took all the wall down in the shower.
> But, I don't know how far to go? To the next beam?
> The existing sheetrock should get cut back to a stud or a corner. You never, never, never should have vertical seams of sheetrock or backerboard (or both) that don't securely fasten to a stud. It is common to need to install additional pieces of 2x4 against an existing stud to facilitate good attachment of new rock or backer without disturbing the old stuff too much. Use deck screws to secure the new stud material to the old. It doesn't have to be as tall as the wall, just enough to allow you to put a screw every 8" or so along the seam.
> ...


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks again, I am actually enjoying this.
Oops, forget the pictures.
Here they are to get a better understanding.
Basically the next STUD is going to be behind my toilet, but I'm going to get a new toilet, so it shouldn't be too hard to work with.
I'm mid 20s and work on the computer 12 hours a day, so thanks for the terminology.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

An added stud (or two fastened together) would work great behind the toilet, or wherever you choose to splice the rock. 

Here's a crude diagram showing how to handle the vertical seams you'll encounter. We'll cover mudding and taping sheetrock joints later when you come to that.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks. I will do that.
How come the bevel though? And do I have to do it the the old sheetrock too?
Do I put drywall tape over it?


Also, for my floor, should I replace the whole floor? Minus the tub, it's about 5' x 5 1/2'.
I'm actually going to be replacing the vanity, my current one goes right to the floor, the new one does not, so the anolium(sp?) will be coming out no matter what.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Answers...



doogie88 said:


> Thanks. I will do that.
> How come the bevel though? And do I have to do it the the old sheetrock too?
> Do I put drywall tape over it?
> The bevel is only about 1/4", and helps hide the seam, which is tough for a rookie, but can be done with some practice. Without the bevel, the rough square edges of your cuts will telegraph through the seam. Yes, you'll mud and tape the seam. I'd wait to do that until you're done hanging backerboard. Fill the joint with drywall mud, then lay in the paper drywall tape (don't use mesh for this joint), bed it in the mud, and let it dry. It will take 3 or 4 applications of mud and subsequent light sanding to get the joint feathered out. It'll be about 12" wide when you're done. Otherwise it will show. We can cover this in depth later if needed.
> ...


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

On a recent bathroom remodel in my house, I had to add a lot of wood studs and blocking to facilitate attachment of backerboard and rock, as well as replace sections of water-damaged studs.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thank you very much. Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I do it right.
One last question (I hope!), how should I handle this (pic attached) with the backerboard.
I mean the stud is already about 4" in from the end of the tub. And since there was water there, I'm kinda worried about using the water resistant sheetrock along the side of the tub. Or do you think it will be okay as long as I caulk it properly?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I think your concern of using sheetrock against the tub is justified. If you can wrap perhaps a 4" tile around the edge of the tub with backerboard underneath it, that would be ideal. If there will be a shower door I'd be less concerned, but if there's only going to be a shower curtain, water would inevitably get down there. If you're willing to use tile, that's the way I'd go.

Just add a couple studs to the one that's there. That way you can fasten your sheetrock.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Okay, thank you very much.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Okay, one more question.
How important is it to replace the plumbing? The house about 20 years old.
It just seems a bit expensive for the part, and a lot more work on top of what I already have to do.
And replace plumbing, you mean pretty much everything?


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

Ya now is the time to put a antiscalding water valve in that shower/tub combo.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Okay, I got my stuff. RedGuard was $80, didn't think it was that much. Guys at HD didn't even know what it was. Luckily they thought they knew something like it, and sent me towards the kitchen/bath, and I found it there.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Be sure to tape and thinset those backerboard seams and let them dry before applying the RedGuard. Yup, its $80, but that's cheap insurance against leaks! :yes:


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

I took out the tub and linolium so far. Have the floor has water damage so I guess I will try and replace it.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Okay, here are some pictures of my floor.
It seems the top layer is particle board(?), I think 1/2" thick. Then there seems to be another type of board below it, a more solid board. The board below is wet, but doesn't fall apart as easy.
I'm not too sure what to do here?

You see the water marks go pretty far, do I have to replace that far?
Should I just take off this top 1/2" board, and replace it with 1/2" cement board? The guy at HD said not to use cement board because it was heavy. He said to fix the problem first and use what was there. :/

Do I have to buy some type of electric saw for this? Or borrow or anything?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

That floor is obviously shot. It needs to be removed, and taken down to the open floor joists. A circular saw set no deeper than 7/8" will aid in removal. Buy, beg, borrow, or steal one. Don't set it any deeper than 7/8" to avoid cutting into floor joists, wires, pipes, etc.

Don't listen to guys that work at Home Depot. :no: They're not known for their rock-solid advice. 

You'll replace the floor sheathing with 3/4" plywood, assuming your joists are spaced 16" on center. If they're spaced wider than that let us know. It comes in 4x8' sheets. If you have seams, be sure they land on a joist. Screw it to every joist with 1-1/2" or 2" screws about 8" on center. On top of that, you'll use 1/4" cement backerboard (which weighs nothing in comparison to the tile, the tub, the water in the tub, and the people in the bathroom). Backerboard usually comes in 3x5' sheets. Set the backerboard in thinset laid down with a notched trowel and screw it to the plywood with backerboard screws.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Quick question before I start on the walls.
*edited*Okay, question was if I had the right thinset, which I did not, they gave me drywall filler. I went back to the store today, went to Rona, and gave me the right stuff. Good thing I double checked!

Should I use the fiberglass drywall tape for my sheetrock too? or should I use regular drywall tape? I bought both, but will return the regular drywall tape if the fiberglass tape is good enough or better.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Bump to the question above of using fibreglass tape on the drywall joints.
Also, when I do the cement joints/corners of the cement board do I have to do it really thin to avoid it from pushing the tiles out when I put thinset on for the tiles?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Your backerboard seams must be "mudded" and taped with thinset and backerboard tape. I'd suggest avoiding pre-mixed thinset in wet locations. Get the dry stuff and mix it yourself. The mesh backerboard tape isn't the same as the mesh drywall tape, although they look the same. 

For backerboard to drywall transitions, I personally never worry about them too much. I fill them with thinset and tape them. It can't hurt. 

For drywall seams, I really don't recommend the mesh tape very often. It can be harder to hide, especially for a drywall newbie. I'd suggest conventional paper tape. Remember when mudding and taping drywall, it isn't a one-time deal. You'll have to go back at least three times in order to properly fill and feather the joint. There are some good online instructional resources available if you need them.

Hope this answers your question. If not, let me know.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Shoot, I threw the label out, but I have Fibreglass mesh drywall tape. Is that the wrong stuff? That's what they gave me at HD. If that is the wrong stuff for the cement board seams, what is the correct one called?

So I tape and thinset the seams.
Then reguard the whole cement area.
Then thinset and add tiles, correct?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm told that the mesh backerboard tape is different than the mesh sheetrock tape in its resistance to some chemical or compound in the thinset. I can't speak to the validity of it, but can tell you that backerboard tape is sold as backerboard tape, not sheetrock tape. It is available at the box stores. For $4, I wouldn't risk it.

Yes, you've got the process right. Be sure to let your thinset seams set up for a day before applying the Redguard. It makes a mess, so use drop cloths if you don't want it on the floor. After the Redguard has set up (follow the instructions), you're ready to install the tiles. Once again, don't use pre-mixed thinset for your walls, no matter how tempting it is. Be sure to use dry mix, and gently mix it with hand tools, not a drill mixer. I like the anti-sag thinset for walls, but as long as you're using tile spacers any good quality thinset mix will do.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks. I have the dry thinset.
One last question. When I put the thinset on the seams, won't it make the surface uneven when I tile?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Nope. You'll use a putty knife to get it reasonably smooth, but don't worry about it too much. Just make sure there's no globs or high spots. Putty knife smooth is adequate...Just use a 3" or larger knife. 

You've got to remember that you're going to be using a notched trowel to apply the thinset to the tiles or walls (or both) and it will be smashed down when you apply the tile. Minor little bumps and variances will be concealed by the thickness of the thinset that sticks the tile up.

Another tip:
Thinset will last for quite a while in the bucket before it sets up, but I'd suggest mixing fairly small amounts at first until you get some experience putting the tiles up and really get rolling. 

What size are your tiles? We need to make sure you're using the right size of notched trowel.


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## doogie88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Probably gonna go with 12" tiles.
I don't have a trowel yet, so recommendation is welcomed.
Thank you.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I'd probably go with a 1/4" wide x 3/8" deep square notched trowel for 12x12 ceramics.


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