# Notched studs



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bowler said:


> Had some plumbing work done to install a new water and drain line. 3 studs were deeply notched out for the pipe on a wall approx 12' wide. I don't know if it's load bearing.
> 
> Plumber said it should be fine - is it something I should be worried about? Photos for reference.
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/7pl8x3a


He should have had you re build out to 2x6 wall, I would build a flat 2x4 wall in front of that.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

You gotta love plumbers. Let me rephrase that because we have awesome plumbers on here, a "poser plumber." Wow, nothing like notching out the WHOLE damn middle of those 2x's. Sheesh. I've seen worse. A plumber in my area cut out a 2 foot section of a 2 x 10 to run some drain lines and then, get this, joined the two pieces he created with a 1 x 3. No one knew until the homeowners had issues with a sagging ceiling. Once they uncovered some drywall they found the disaster. Unbelievable.


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

Nealtw do you have a reference photo to illustrate? I'm not sure if I'm understanding the concept


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

Would a stud shoe be helpful?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bowler said:


> Would a stud shoe be helpful?


Not if it is load bearing. Put a straight across there and check for lumps that will show up in the drywall.


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## NotYerUncleBob2 (Dec 29, 2017)

Bowler said:


> I don't know if it's load bearing.


You better find out quick! Because if it was a bearing wall, it ain't bearing at it's capacity anymore.


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

From what I can tell now it doesn't appear to be load bearing. With that in mind are the notches still something to be worried about?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bowler said:


> From what I can tell now it doesn't appear to be load bearing. With that in mind are the notches still something to be worried about?


 What is above and below this wall? they all appear the same.:wink2:


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

Directly below is concrete slab, above is the second floor. The wall does not go up all the way through the second floor. On the other side of the wall there is kitchen cabinetry


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bowler said:


> Directly below is concrete slab, above is the second floor. The wall does not go up all the way through the second floor. On the other side of the wall there is kitchen cabinetry


 Do the floor joists land on this wall?


If you look down in the wall, are there any bolts holding it down?


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

...Is that a cement block wall behind the 90* at the end? IF so, and it's just a "face" wall, meaning the cinder block is the exterior wall, then maybe its okay since it's just a "pretty thing" and completely non-structural. 

Though I gotta say, that wall isn't supporting anything but the sheetrock anymore... I believe building code says you can't notch out that many studs in a row (pretty sure you can only do two studs in a row.)


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## Spyder (Jan 11, 2019)

Mystriss said:


> ...Is that a cement block wall behind the 90* at the end? IF so, and it's just a "face" wall, meaning the cinder block is the exterior wall, then maybe its okay since it's just a "pretty thing" and completely non-structural.
> 
> Though I gotta say, that wall isn't supporting anything but the sheetrock anymore... I believe building code says you can't notch out that many studs in a row (pretty sure you can only do two studs in a row.)


I don't know about consecutive studs, but there are definite guidelines for notching studs both for a load bearing wall and a non loadbearing wall.

That is too much for a non-load bearing wall even. I'd be concerned if you have cabinets hanging from it. I know of stud shoes,but am unsure if that completely solves this problem on so many cut so much when hanging cabinets. 

I'm spitballing, but how about nailing a stud on flat in front of the wall nailed off to each stud shoring i up? not sure if this really solves the issue


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

I'd found this when I was researching for running cat6 and rg6 for my house (relevant to this thread portion highlighted):



Mystriss said:


> I've been poking around random corners of the internet all day and I found code and discussion that indicates the following:
> 
> Holes in bearing walls may not exceed 40% of the width of the stud. Holes in non-bearing walls cannot exceed 60% of the stud width. Edges of holes must be at least 5/8" from the edge of a stud. Romex has to be 1 1/4" back from the front of the stud (to protect from accidental screwing) or a 1/16" thick protective metal plate has to be used. You cannot have a hole and a notch, nor a hole and a horizontal cut/butt joint in the same "cross section" of a stud [basically, you want some continuous meat around the hole/notch.] Holes should be round, cut an octagon if you cannot go round.
> 
> ...


(My original thread here - https://www.diychatroom.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5768871)


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Bowler said:


> From what I can tell now it doesn't appear to be load bearing. With that in mind are the notches still something to be worried about?


Yes... because



Bowler said:


> On the other side of the wall there is kitchen cabinetry


Wall mounted cabinets (not floor mounted) put a bending moment into the studs, see diagram below:

Also the other diagram below is a graphic representation of what was discussed previously about code notching specifications.


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

Nealtw 

Don't see any bolts here. Just concrete slab under, couple nails.

Mystriss

This wall is perpendicular to an exterior wall which I know is load bearing. Thanks for that link and info very useful. I've got about 80% notched out for 3 studs in a row, none are doubled.


HenryMac

I have both cabinets at the base and one at height. The one at height is installed at a corner, so it's connected to this wall and another wall for the pantry. Hopefully this sounds like it could reduce any bend issues.


Sounds like at minimum I need stud shoes and some extra reinforcement. Not sure how I can reinforce correctly- there's only space between the studs. Sounds like I also need to call the plumbing company to have a conversation.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bowler said:


> Nealtw
> 
> Don't see any bolts here. Just concrete slab under, couple nails.
> .



And do the joist land above the wall. 

I don't think you will find a shoe for a cut out that big, that will add to the anti bend strength.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

A) Can you post up a photo of the cabinets on the other side?

B) Is the work that was done something that needs a permit pulled for the work? 

Regardless as to if it will work as-is, it needs to be done to code. Using the cabinets on the other side for supporting shoddy work is a band aid.

What size is the pipe o.d.? Looks to me, to to meet code, even a 2x8 wall wouldn't work.


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

Doesn't appear that the joists land on the wall.

Here's a photo of the other side of the wall
https://imgur.com/a/6M9g9DG

No permit was necessary to my knowledge


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## Bowler (Apr 29, 2019)

The pipe is 2.5" wide. Looks like a standard PVC drain pipe to me


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Which direction do the joists go?


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Bowler said:


> Doesn't appear that the joists land on the wall.
> 
> Here's a photo of the other side of the wall
> https://imgur.com/a/6M9g9DG
> ...


Thanks, that helps a bunch. I wouldn't be worried at all about the weight on the wall from the cabinets since there is a panel that goes all the way to the floor.

Is that a vaulted ceiling? Does it land on this wall?

So it's likely 2" pipe, which is 2-3/8" O.D. (2.375).

Even with a 2x6 wall, anything over 2.2" o.d. isn't really code legal.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I really don't think it matters if it is bearing or not, that wall needs help, more structure.


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