# GFCI breaker trips randomly



## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

I will try to keep this short...being that my longer post got lost as I was typing it and how 220/221 likes long posts 


- Bathroom remodel required extending wiring for whirlpool tub. I added a metal J box and extended it with 10AWG wire since the old one was 10 as well. 
- 20 A GFCI breaker
- 20 A outlet.
- Breaker tripped a few times but never as I was using the outlet. One time as I was resetting it sparked inside. I decided to get a new breaker. 

- Electrician put in the new breaker few weeks ago and when he removed the old one, he said it was broken and showed it to me. The terminal screw was basically broken off. I don't know if it broke as he removed it or what, but regardless we wrote it tripping to the bad breaker.

- Last night I went to the panel to check something and breaker was tripped again. I am fairly certain I didn't use the outlet between the time I saw the breaker on and when I saw it tripped.

WTF is going on and how do I troubleshoot this?


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## tripflex (Sep 15, 2009)

BimmerRacer said:


> I will try to keep this short...being that my longer post got lost as I was typing it and how 220/221 likes long posts
> 
> 
> - Bathroom remodel required extending wiring for whirlpool tub. I added a metal J box and extended it with 10AWG wire since the old one was 10 as well.
> ...



Check the J box make sure there aren't any connections touching. Did you ground out the box? 

Try a couple different things... 

Unplug everything and see if it still trips

Is there anything else on the circuit besides the tub?


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

tripflex said:


> Check the J box make sure there aren't any connections touching. Did you ground out the box?


If connectors were touching, wouln't it trip right away? Yes, I believe the box is grounded, same with the outlet. I will double check.


tripflex said:


> Try a couple different things...
> 
> Unplug everything and see if it still trips


Nothing is plugged in when it trips.


tripflex said:


> Is there anything else on the circuit besides the tub?


Not that I know of, but I have not traced the wire back to the panel.


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## tripflex (Sep 15, 2009)

You said there was an outlet and a gfci outlet on same circuit, correct? If so, does the GFCI feed to outlet or vice versa? 

I have seen numerous faulty GFCI outlets that have caused breakers to trip. Disconnect the GFCI and see what happens. If that doesn't help, disconnect everything up to the point to where the old wire is. 

If it trips after that, then you know the problem is in the breaker panel, or the wire running from the panel to the jbox.

Let us know what you find...


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

tripflex said:


> You said there was an outlet and a gfci outlet on same circuit, correct? If so, does the GFCI feed to outlet or vice versa?
> 
> I have seen numerous faulty GFCI outlets that have caused breakers to trip. Disconnect the GFCI and see what happens. If that doesn't help, disconnect everything up to the point to where the old wire is.
> 
> ...


 
No, I said a GFCI breaker which feeds a 20A outlet for a whirlpool tub. It's marked as a dedicated circuit in the panel.


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## Magnettica (Jan 13, 2009)

BimmerRacer said:


> No, I said a GFCI breaker which feeds a 20A outlet for a whirlpool tub. It's marked as a dedicated circuit in the panel.


Unplug the jacuzzi motor, reset the GFCI circuit breaker, and see if it holds. 

If it holds, then the problem is your jacuzzi motor.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Unplug the jacuzzi motor, reset the GFCI circuit breaker, and see if it holds.
> 
> If it holds, then the problem is your jacuzzi motor.


Nothing is connected to the outlet. I have connected a simple wiring tester, a construction lamp and a table saw into that outlet and it never tripped while under load. That's what is puzzling to me.


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## tripflex (Sep 15, 2009)

BimmerRacer said:


> Nothing is connected to the outlet. I have connected a simple wiring tester, a construction lamp and a table saw into that outlet and it never tripped while under load. That's what is puzzling to me.



haha ohhhhhhhhhh my bad. Yeah if it's a GFCI breaker...that's probably why...i've had so many problems with those before, i just switched all mine out to a regular 20a breaker


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Or put a 7-1/2w incand. bulb in series with your jacuzzi motor ground lead. More than 1v with the motor powered is a ground fault.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Or put a 7-1/2w incand. bulb in series with your jacuzzi motor ground lead. More than 1v with the motor powered is a ground fault.


Yes, I read that post, but as I said already, I have no motor connected to it currently.


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## Magnettica (Jan 13, 2009)

The GFCI works on the principle that it will trip when it detects current leakage. 

You may just have a bad GFCI breaker or there's something else you're not telling us. 

I'm leaning towards there's something you're not telling us, not that you don't want to, just that you don't know.


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## Magnettica (Jan 13, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Or put a 7-1/2w incand. bulb in series with your jacuzzi motor ground lead. More than 1v with the motor powered is a ground fault.



Are you serious? :furious:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> Are you serious? :furious:


Using 5 mA and the cold resistance of that lamp, work out the math:thumbsup:
The advantage of using the lamp is that you don't blow out your milliammeter.


Trust me, I'm also from "Joisey" [Bergen County].


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> The GFCI works on the principle that it will trip when it detects current leakage.
> 
> You may just have a bad GFCI breaker or there's something else you're not telling us.
> 
> I'm leaning towards there's something you're not telling us, not that you don't want to, just that you don't know.


Given the fact that the problem happened with the old breaker as well as the brand new one I think we can pretty much rule out the breaker itself. 

Don't know what else to tell, certainly not hiding anything  I just don't know what would cause this and what steps I should be taking in order to get this resolved. Switching out to a non-GFCI breaker is not an option IMO.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

BimmerRacer said:


> Given the fact that the problem happened with the old breaker as well as the brand new one I think we can pretty much rule out the breaker itself.


I agree. About the only thing left is the wiring in and downstream of the panel.

This problem has come up before but the OP didn't provide feedback on what finally happened.

GFCIs at the load end are way easier to troubleshoot because how they are wired and where the current is going is much clearer.

If you can post a link to your particular panel GFCI there might be things that haven't yet been tried. 

You'll need a DVM.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Can you check the wire path all the way to the jacuzzi?
Any chance a screw went into the wire somewhere during renovations?

If you disconnect everything at the splice you made & it trips then there is a problem with the old wiring

Putting a normal breaker in should never be an option unless ONLY to test
People who take out GFCI's really aren't thinking properly
Especially with a tub


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Can you check the wire path all the way to the jacuzzi?
> Any chance a screw went into the wire somewhere during renovations?
> 
> If you disconnect everything at the splice you made & it trips then there is a problem with the old wiring
> ...


I think that's my next step...although if a screw went through the wire I would think it would trip right away?


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> If you can post a link to your particular panel GFCI there might be things that haven't yet been tried.


A link to it? What do u mean? A picture of the panel? Its a SquareD Q series panel


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Vibration could be an issue
Loose wire or screw barely touching until vibration from someone walking makes it touch
Only other thing I can think of


Last person had installed a ceiling fan brace thru a wire during a remodel that caused the breaker to kick
But he didn't notice the breaker off until days later so never connected the 2 events


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Just walked the wire, it goes straight into the panel. The only J box is the one I added. Too tired to mess with it now, will have to wait until this weekend I think. I'll post what I find.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Assuming the breaker feeds a Romex cable with hot, neutral and ground, 
if you disconnect the ground wire from that cable at the panel busbar and the breaker then doesn't trip, 
the leakage current is not going into the cable ground conductor 
so it must be finding some other path to ground.


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## rkess (Sep 16, 2009)

*Gfci tripping*

check that your ground wire (bare) is not touching the neutral wire (white) in both the metal junction box and in the recpt. box. They might be really close to each other and vibration could make them touch thus tripping the gfci


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Puzzled by GFCI Breaker trip?*



Yoyizit said:


> Or put a 7-1/2w incand. bulb in series with your jacuzzi motor ground lead. More than 1v with the motor powered is a ground fault.


I vote with you! It is DEFINITELY a ground fault condition and the breaker is performing as intended. There could be moisture around the motor or timer wiring!:furious::no::drinkNo matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with the J box or the outlet. Does anyone? As you can see, a tester is plugged in and is powered, obviously not tripping the GFI




































And a link to high res picture of the inside of the panel. 


http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/640369391_Ey6Np-O.jpg


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Check the clamps at each metal box. If they are too tight, you may be getting intermittent contact between ground and neutral causing the GFCI to trip. Loosen and inspect the cable cover and wires for damage.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Puzzled about GFCI Breaker tripping,Cont'd.*



HouseHelper said:


> Check the clamps at each metal box. If they are too tight, you may be getting intermittent contact between ground and neutral causing the GFCI to trip. Loosen and inspect the cable cover and wires for damage.


My primary concern (in all installations) is about the HOT and NEUTRAL or HOT to GROUND making contact when overtightening the clamps. Then, of course you would have the breaker trip immediately. If that's not happening, it's safe to assume that you didn't over tighten. Tightening just right is something you've got to have a feel for. It comes over time! (No matter what):yes::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Joe F (Jan 27, 2008)

The first picture appears to have a drop of water on the neutral.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Joe F said:


> The first picture appears to have a drop of water on the neutral.


I don't know exactly what you are looking at but there has not been any running water in that portion of the house for quite some time.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

"ELIMINATE ALL OTHER FACTORS OR POSSIBILITIES AND THE ONE WHICH REMAINS MUST BE THE TRUTH, HOWEVER UNLIKELY."
-S. Holmes
:thumbsup:



BimmerRacer said:


> a tester is plugged in and is powered, obviously not tripping the GFI


If the tester pulls more than 5 mA between hot and ground it should trip the CB.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

1. Check the clamps (see post #25)
2. If #1 doesn't reveal a problem, disconnect the wires at the new junction box, cap all the ends, turn breaker on to see if it still randomly trips. This will help isolate the problem to either the new wiring or the old wiring.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Bimmer, This is NOT causing your GFCI problem
But give those wire-nuts some more twists
.


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## rkess (Sep 16, 2009)

*randomly tripping GFCI*

Another thing to check is the romex staples. As with the clamps, if a staple is driven in to hard it could cause the breaker to trip. You could remove the GFCI breaker replace it with a regular breaker. Remove the recpt. and replace it with a 20 amp GFCI recpt. Just a thought.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*(Elusive cause of) GFCI Breaker trip, Cont'd.*



rkess said:


> Another thing to check is the romex staples. As with the clamps, if a staple is driven in to hard it could cause the breaker to trip. You could remove the GFCI breaker replace it with a regular breaker. Remove the recpt. and replace it with a 20 amp GFCI recpt. Just a thought.


Yes. But (IMHO) the reason for the INTERMITTENT nature of the breaker trip is a moisture condition somewhere. A regular short or ground fault would cause the breaker to trip with great fanfare (Lots of fireworks and noise)! (No matter what):furious::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

spark plug said:


> Yes. But (IMHO) the reason for the INTERMITTENT nature of the breaker trip is a moisture condition somewhere. A regular short or ground fault would cause the breaker to trip with great fanfare (Lots of fireworks and noise)! (No matter what):furious::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


Could it be moisture condition near the panel which would only effect the GFCI breaker?


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

spark plug said:


> Yes. But (IMHO) the reason for the INTERMITTENT nature of the breaker trip is a moisture condition somewhere. A regular short or ground fault would cause the breaker to trip with great fanfare (Lots of fireworks and noise)! (No matter what):furious::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


Since it is a GFCI breaker, contact between the neutral and ground will cause a trip with no "fanfare" whatsoever. Moisture, metal expansion, vibration could all cause random tripping if the wires are very close together or a clamp has cut into the insulation.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

well, I didnt get a chance to look at anything this past weekend, but the breaker hasn't tripped since I started this thread.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

BimmerRacer said:


> well, I didnt get a chance to look at anything this past weekend, but the breaker hasn't tripped since I started this thread.


I'd put a milliammeter in series with a 1/16th A fuse in series with the ground lead from the busbar to see how close you are to tripping.
90' of Romex will normally give you 0.5 mA due to capacitive coupling. If you have 3 or 4 mA there is probably a problem that hasn't yet tripped the GFCI.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> I'd put a milliammeter in series with a 1/16th A fuse in series with the ground lead from the busbar to see how close you are to tripping.
> 90' of Romex will normally give you 0.5 mA due to capacitive coupling. If you have 3 or 4 mA there is probably a problem that hasn't yet tripped the GFCI.


1/16A? where would I get that?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

BimmerRacer said:


> 1/16A? where would I get that?


Possibly Radio Shack. 
If you're on the 200 mA scale the meter's internal fuse might be 500 mA. You want a series fuse small enough that it trips instead of your meter's internal fuse.

The other way is to measure the cold resistance of a 4w or 7-1/2w 120v incand. lamp and use this as a current sensing resistor, in series with the ground lead. 
If the lamp filament reads 100 ohms and the voltage across it is 0.4v then 4 mA is passing through the ground lead.

But always start with your meter set on the highest voltage or current scale.


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## BimmerRacer (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

BimmerRacer said:


> Thanks


My pleasure. Good luck.


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