# Neutral & grounds on separate bus bars?



## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

When I purchased this house (late 2008), the home inspection report noted the following about the sub-panel: "Improper wiring to sub-panel, the neutral and ground wires are not on separate bus bars as required on sub-panels."

How significant a problem is this? (...maybe on a scale of 1 to 10?)


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

*Bad*, not sure how bad on a scale
But if the neutral comes loose power will flow across the ground, energizing items that have a ground plug
---is my understanding


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

It is not a problem at all if everything is working as it should -> 1

BUT it could kill someone if there is an electrical malfunction with the wiring between the main and subpanel -> 10!

The problem is if a main wire comes loose. And actually that is not a very uncommon problem. I would not feel comfortable with that in my home and would fix it 1st thing. This would be a priority!

And since this was not wired as it should be, I would closely examine the rest of the electrical system for other handiwork.

And this is the thing with many electrical codes / wiring methods. They are there to protect you and your family in the event of a malfunction. A wire comes loose. A wire touches the metal frame of an appliance. There is a bare wire on an old extension cord used outside...

You are protected with wiring done to code. Get it fixed ASAP.


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## Jupe Blue (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm not seeing a grounding (green or bare) conductor to the sub-panel. That's a code violation also. If you have a grounding conductor, it's an easy thing to add a ground bar in that panel and relocate the grounds to it.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 11, 2008)

Right!

That is the most important part - that 4th green or bare wire (missing).


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't want to be nippick but there are quite few items that need to be addressed here 

• no marking on netural conductor to the subpanel.

• No EGC to subpanel at all { I do not know if that was installed before the code got strict especally after 05 that get really strict with it }

• two netural conductors on one hole that is no-no at all.

• one of the two pole breaker I can see stranded conductor is not landed properly on the breaker lug termatil { you can see it pretty clear with white conductor there }

• missing grounding bar.

For the rest of the building wireing I think it need to be look more closer to verify if that is legit set up.

Merci,Marc


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Need a little more info. Is this in a detached garage? Is there a ground rod at the building? Are there any other metallic pathways to that building? Although not allowed anymore in most areas, this may be a legit install. I do see a larger(4 awg?) GEC going to the bar, so there may be ground rod driven somewhere. However, as pointed out before, there are a few other things in the panel that also need to be addressed.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Check the bus bars for a screw down or metal strap connection to the panel (sheet metal) itself. The bus bar that has such a bonding (firm metal to metal contact) you use for your ground wires. The bus bar without that bonding is used for neutrals.

You can "extend" a wire that is not long enough to reach the other bus bar by wire nutting on a short piece (pigtail) of matching kind (white for neutral or bare (or green) for ground) But do not extend two or more wires using just one pigtail of the same size.

Put a band of white tape on the incoming neutral (did you say it was at #4 gauge or fatter?).

Put a band of red or black tape* or stain on both ends of each white wire connected to the hot lug of a breaker (as used for 240 volt circuits).

The latest code doesn't allow it but just the 3 incoming wires (two hots and a neutral) was permitted in the past for detached buildings provided no other metal connection that could behave as a ground such as a cable TV coaxial or a water pipe went between the buildings.

While you are at it, retighten (not using tremendous strength) each and every screw and set screw holding a wire in place. Of course turn off the respective breaker before tightening the screw for the hot wire attached there.

*You can use other colors, too, other than green.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Billy_Bob said:


> It is not a problem at all if everything is working as it should -> 1
> 
> BUT it could kill someone if there is an electrical malfunction with the wiring between the main and subpanel -> 10!
> 
> ...


It is a possible code violation, regardless if it is safe or not. It should be addressed.



Jupe Blue said:


> I'm not seeing a grounding (green or bare) conductor to the sub-panel. That's a code violation also. If you have a grounding conductor, it's an easy thing to add a ground bar in that panel and relocate the grounds to it.


If he used metal conduit, the conduit can be used as the ground. The OP did not say. He would still need to install a grounding terminal strip and connect all the grounds to it.



jerryh3 said:


> Need a little more info. Is this in a detached garage? Is there a ground rod at the building? Are there any other metallic pathways to that building? Although not allowed anymore in most areas, this may be a legit install. I do see a larger(4 awg?) GEC going to the bar, so there may be ground rod driven somewhere. However, as pointed out before, there are a few other things in the panel that also need to be addressed.


Very good observation Jerry. :thumbsup: Prior to the 2008 code cycle, 3 wire feeders where allowed, making this a compliant install. But Marc (French Electrician) pointed out some other violations that should be corrected.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks all for the great responses! And I thought my biggest concern was having to replace my main breaker box (a Federal Pacific). Oh well...

Here's some additional info:


The thicker bare wire in the middle of the left bus bar is a grounding wire, which attaches to an exterior grounding rod. (You can just see it exiting the bottom of the box in original posted photo).
This sub is for a work shop addition attached to the house. It powers a dedicated A/C (air handler and compressor), lights and outlets.
The sub is sourced from a branch off the meter, not connected to the main breaker box (see attached photo below).
I can't see that either bus bar is grounded to the breaker box itself. However, the box label shown in the attached photo indicates a location for "box bonding" (#1). 
The box label also seems to indicate the top of the right bus bar for "service ground."
Given the feedback already received, I'll be re-seating the double breaker with the wires not seated properly (both wires had this problem). I'll also properly indicate the incoming neutral and hots and re-check all the breaker connections (thanks AllanJ for the DIY-friendly instruction).

Questions:


Can I use the right bus bar as my ground bar, or do I need to add a separate bar?

How do I use the "box bonding" hole to ground the box to the ground bar?

Once the above questions are resolved, is the remainder of the job to just move the ground wires from the existing bar to the ground bar?
I do plan this as a DIY project. Thanks for the continuing support and expert feedback!

Dan


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Is that gizmo up top with the yellow star a breaker with a button or handle that lets you turn the panel completely off? Not just a reset button.

If so, assuming that the incoming #4 wires go directly to the meter, then this is not really a subpanel and the combined grounds and neutrals are proper. (If you turn off the main house main breaker, is this "subpanel" still alive?)

With no main manual disconnecting means in the "subpanel" and its being wired directly to the meter lugs, you would have something dreadfully wrong.

What does the box bonding hole look like? Is it threaded to accept a screw that will dig into the box surface beyond without causing the bar to lift off of (and split irreparably off of) its plastic moorings?

If you were to separate the neutrals and grounds making the right bar the ground bar then you would have to move the fat bare wire over to the right also. Also make sure that the left and right bars are unbonded from each other.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> deleted g


Hmmm... I think this lost something in the editing. :whistling2:


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> *Bad*, not sure how bad on a scale
> But if the neutral comes loose power will flow across the ground, energizing items that have a ground plug
> ---is my understanding


I don't know about "Energizing" the Grounds. But the (sub) panel, if Grounded, will pick up all of the cumulative "Debris", and will, overheat. Yes. Become hot. Sometimes, very Hot (temperature wise), especially if there are many non-linear loads on the various branch circuits.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> Is that gizmo up top with the yellow star a breaker with a button or handle that lets you turn the panel completely off? Not just a reset button.


It's the main breaker for the box. (better photo attached)



AllanJ said:


> If so, assuming that the incoming #4 wires go directly to the meter, then this is not really a subpanel and the combined grounds and neutrals are proper. (If you turn off the main house main breaker, is this "subpanel" still alive?)


The panel isn't connected to the main breaker panel in the original house. Sorry if I confused the issue with improper terminology. Given this is a separate "main" breaker panel, is it still necessary to split the grounds and neutrals?



AllanJ said:


> With no main manual disconnecting means in the "subpanel" and its being wired directly to the meter lugs, you would have something dreadfully wrong.


By this, I assume you're refering to the first question about whether there's a main shutoff in the panel. Since there's a main breaker, shouldn't be a problem (unless I'm misinterpreting...).



AllanJ said:


> What does the box bonding hole look like? Is it threaded to accept a screw that will dig into the box surface beyond without causing the bar to lift off of (and split irreparably off of) its plastic moorings?
> 
> If you were to separate the neutrals and grounds making the right bar the ground bar then you would have to move the fat bare wire over to the right also. Also make sure that the left and right bars are unbonded from each other.


The box bonding hole starts with the metal bar, then a same-sized hole through the underlying plastic, then to a smaller hole through the back metal of the box. Beyond that is wood. (Photo attached; hard to capture...) I can't tell whether the rear hole is threaded, but looks like it'd accept a screw of the correct size.

Regarding unbonding from each other, this seems to be a problem. The silver metal band seems to connect both bus bars. Would it be appropriate to simply disconnect the right bar, and mount it to the box a bit to the right, or lower?
=====================

Again, since I've clarified that this isn't technically a "sub," but rather a separately-wired second "main," can I simply avoid the re-wiring and keep the grounds and neutrals on the same bar?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

This panel appears to be a Main panel fed direct from the meter base
Top is a main 100 breaker, being fed with 3 power feeds, 2 hot & a neutral
Then a grouding wire is attached to a ground rod

So this appears to be a Main panel *IF* it is not being fed from the other panel via a 100a breaker
That is the key

So grounds & neutrals can be mixed
Grounds can be doubled, neutrals can not

Careful remarking those top wires as they are HOT at all times
DO NOT go near the screws !!
I would not be too concerned with that, its obvious which is which
The issue is if the panel is ever replaced


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks, S_D. 

I apologize to all if I initially confused the issue by inappropriately calling it a "sub." Knowing the theory but not knowing proper terminology can make communicating difficult! That's why I try to include photos whenever possible -- but even that doesn't always bridge the gap. Alas... 

Meanwhile, aside from minor housekeeping in the panel (cable labeling, tightening up, refitting, etc.), looks like I'm in good shape. Thanks all for the great input! :thumbup:

Next comes the Federal Pacific panel. (That will be a different thread, when it comes to it).


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Your inspector mistook it for a subpanel.

To use the bonding hole, use a screw that fits through that hole in the uppermost metal not too tightly and which digs into the metal hole in the panel back as it also penetrates the wood behind. There needs to be a firm metal to metal connection somewhere between one of the ground bus bars and the panel metal. A jumper wire occupying one of the set screws and looped under one of the screws holding the panel to the wood behind will also do (scrape the paint off the metal where the wire looped around touches.).

You only need to move a few ground or neutral wires to the right side bus bar so that each neutral (white) wire has its own set screw.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Aside from what has already been pointed out you still have a non compliant installation to the 'attached' panelboard.

What you have is two sets of service entrance conductors feeding two different panelboards used as service equipment. The installation as it is is non-compliant in that you do not have grouped disconnects. Meaning you have one disconnect located remote from the other one. Disconnects must be grouped per service *if* both panels are located in the same dwelling. If the workshop had been a detached structure then the panelboard would be compliant with a 3 wire feeder in pvc. However it is not the case. Disconnects must be grouped at one location. You must be able to remove power from the dwelling from one point not two different points on the dwelling. You can have two service disconnnects they just can't be located in different places.

For this to be compliant you need to locate a service disconnect next to the panel in the dwelling (not the workshop) then a 4 wire feeder to the panel board in the workshop from that disconnect. This will 'group' the disconnects for the service to the dwelling. This will require some rewiring.

The other consideration is the service size for the dwelling and the size of the line side of the meters service entrance conductors. What you have is two 100 amp panels each with a set of service entrance conductors whose load must be carried by the single set of service entrance conductors on the line side of the meter. Those line conductors must be sized to carry the calculated load of both panels.

But again what you have is not a compliant installation.


As said you also are missing the bonding screw to bond the metal can of the panelboard (due to 3 wire feed) to the neutral of the service. So if you do not change anything be sure you at least install the bonding screw.

You do not need or want the grounding to earth (ground rod) at the panelboard located in the workshop. You could if you wanted disconnect it from the workshop panelboard and run a bonding wire from the other ground rod at the other panelboard to the ground rod at the workshop.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> This panel appears to be a Main panel fed direct from the meter base
> Top is a main 100 breaker, being fed with 3 power feeds, 2 hot & a neutral
> Then a grouding wire is attached to a ground rod
> 
> ...


Yes. But the OP (Itsdanf) states that the feeders to the panel (which, BTW look like Square D breakers) come off the MAIN breaker, which is an FPE. Then, technically the main panel is considered a SUB PANEL, and the Grounds and Neutrals must be kept separate! But then again, I don't understand what the purpose is for the Main Breaker inside the panel!:no:!


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

spark plug said:


> Yes. But the OP (Itsdanf) states that the feeders to the panel (which, BTW look like Square D breakers) come off the MAIN breaker, which is an FPE. Then, technically the main panel is considered a SUB PANEL, and the Grounds and Neutrals must be kept separate! But then again, I don't understand what the purpose is for the Main Breaker inside the panel!:no:!


Read post #10


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

spark plug said:


> Yes. But the OP (Itsdanf) states that the feeders to the panel (which, BTW look like Square D breakers) come off the MAIN breaker, which is an FPE. Then, technically the main panel is considered a SUB PANEL, and the Grounds and Neutrals must be kept separate! But then again, I don't understand what the purpose is for the Main Breaker inside the panel!:no:!


The Main breaker shuts off the power in the panel :huh: ?
Every sub I run has a Main breaker - just my preference

Actually the picture he posted shows the feed for this panel coming from the meter
And the other panel also supposedly being fed from the meter: 



Itsdanf said:


> Here's some additional info:
> 
> 
> The sub is sourced from a branch off the meter, not connected to the main breaker box (see attached photo below)


As Stubbie pointed out having 2 Main panels in different locations is not allowed by Code
Was it ever allowed? 
Also the fact of the dual ground rods....

I think ItsDanf needs to verify how both panels are powered
And total power that the service feed can handle

100a panel shown
Did you say you have a 200a Main ?
That's 300a total possible direct feed from meter ?


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

jerryh3 said:


> Read post #10


Yes. I've read post #10, where the OP states that the panel that goes to the shop is branched directly off the meter. Fine. That makes it a main panel. But what about the House panel. THAT, apparently comes off the FPE MAIN BREAKER. If that is the case, then the House panel IS considered a SUB panel. In either case, this house is supplied by 2 Main Panels. As J.V. pointed out, in addition to all other issues, 2 Service disconnects in an attached building should be GROUPED together, as per NEC!


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Itsdanf said:


> When I purchased this house (late 2008), the home inspection report noted the following about the sub-panel: "Improper wiring to sub-panel, the neutral and ground wires are not on separate bus bars as required on sub-panels."
> 
> How significant a problem is this? (...maybe on a scale of 1 to 10?)


 id be more concerned about the piss poor workmanship myself! :whistling2:


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

Granted there are a number of code violations in this situation, the most abosolute danger in this panel is the missing bonding screw. You need to bond that panel case one way or another! :yes:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

spark plug said:


> Yes. I've read post #10, where the OP states that the panel that goes to the shop is branched directly off the meter. Fine. That makes it a main panel. But what about the House panel. THAT, apparently comes off the FPE MAIN BREAKER. If that is the case, then the House panel IS considered a SUB panel. In either case, this house is supplied by 2 Main Panels. As J.V. pointed out, in addition to all other issues, 2 Service disconnects in an attached building should be GROUPED together, as per NEC!


Why would the other panel be a sub ?
Its fed direct from the meter ?
He posted a pic here:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/unintended-kitchen-remodel-59526/


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Just addressing Scuba Dave (Post #21). The First Paragraph states that "The main breaker shuts off power to the panel". IMHO, this looks like a Square D breaker (as do all the other breakers in this panel) And the OP mentioned something about "The main breaker box being a FPE". Either he has the terminology (or brand name) confused or there exists another disconnect for the branch circuits of this panel.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes - the main breaker being located in the (other) main panel - he thought this one was a sub


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yes - the main breaker being located in the (other) main panel - he thought this one was a sub


Thanks for clearing it up. I happen to have a vivid imagination. In my mind's eye I saw a Third Disconnect box.:laughing:!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah....its like whisper down the lane at times :laughing:
I thought maybe I was missing something

My concern is a 100 Main & a 200a Main ??
Probably never pull 300a....


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yeah....its like whisper down the lane at times :laughing:
> I thought maybe I was missing something
> 
> My concern is a 100 Main & a 200a Main ??
> Probably never pull 300a....


They'll hear from the PoCo! But, it's a known fact that the Utility wires are of a higher quality and can pull much, much more than their rated capacity (Something we wouldn't dare to do ourselves) When I walk by on the street and see what the PoCo connects as a temporary (overhead) connection. Sometimes, they run an entire multi-dwelling building on a single #10, 4-wire cable!!


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## Jupe Blue (Nov 9, 2008)

In Oregon it's a code violation to use the meter can as a pass-thru for other conductors. I suppose it would be legal if the meter lugs are rated to accept two sets of feeders to separate panels. And the service entrance conductors are sized appropriately for the combined loads.

It's seems that there are a number of issues that people are pointing out on this thread. It might be useful to hire a local electrician to do an inspection if the main and sub-panel, meter base and service drop, and the grounding system. They could point out any items that are in violation of local codes. 

Or you could see if you can get a courtesy inspection by the local AHJ.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Jupe Blue said:


> In Oregon it's a code violation to use the meter can as a pass-thru for other conductors. I suppose it would be legal if the meter lugs are rated to accept two sets of feeders to separate panels. And the service entrance conductors are sized appropriately for the combined loads.
> 
> It's seems that there are a number of issues that people are pointing out on this thread. It might be useful to hire a local electrician to do an inspection if the main and sub-panel, meter base and service drop, and the grounding system. They could point out any items that are in violation of local codes.
> 
> Or you could see if you can get a courtesy inspection by the local AHJ.


As I mentioned in a previous post (on another thread) that to the local utility in New York --Con ed-- one of the biggest no no/s is "Double Lugging". And I understand the potential danger in it. In cases where an extra meter has to be added, they require to run the connections in a trough (below or above the meter) rather than tapping into the existing meter! I think the best advice for the OP would be to call a local Licensed electrician to inspect the service and give him a clear picture what he's dealing with. Calling the local Utility or the AHJ is not ideal. Because if they find something they don't like , they might shut down the power, rather than have it repaired not under stress! (No matter what) Don't drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> My concern is a 100 Main & a 200a Main ??





> Next step will be to analyzing existing circuit loads. I’ll evaluate whether I should upgrade my panel capacity while I’m swapping, and whether I need to adjust any existing circuits that might be too overloaded. I currently have 200A service, with a 100A main panel, and a 100A sub-panel (not wired to the main panel, but branched out immediately from the meter; it's newer and doe


Scuba

The second qoute from your link is what I based my reply on. He says he has a 100 amp main breaker fpe panel and a 100 amp main breaker sub-panel (square d) and 200 amp service. Both are fed from the meter base so they are not feeders. They are service entrance.

The grouped disconnect requirement has been on the books for as long as my old bones can remember. 

Aside from that I agree with Spark Plug best see how that tap was made in the meter can because this smells like and looks like a previous homeowner and his knowledgable electician friend did this work. 

It is very common to see sub feed lugs (tap connectors) installed on the load side terminals of a meter socket like the image below but this is never done to a 2nd panelboard location that is service equipment that is not grouped. These are for spa/pool panels. detached building panelboards, outdoor lighting panels that sort of thing.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ah....I was somehow thinking he had a 200 "Main" panel
I have heard of the double tapped meters
I thought some were made for that ?
IE - 400a service that feeds (2) 200a panels

I agree that an inspection needs to occur...if only to make sure everything is on the up & up


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Ah....I was somehow thinking he had a 200 "Main" panel
> I have heard of the double tapped meters
> I thought some were made for that ?
> IE - 400a servcoce that feeds (2) 200a panels
> ...


 
I have done that from time to time but very limited use per NEC code plus state requirement.

That what I called take off tap there are few circitas you have to check it out before you can use the takeoff taps like Stubbie provied the photo.

Basically you will need a legit *200* amp socket not the *100* amp socket that is the whole key issue and with that set up you can have two 100 amp panels.

Merci,Marc


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Can you tell the Meter size just from looking at it ?
I was assuming a 200a service needed a 200a meter ?
I don't know one meter size from another


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Yes and No depending on which meter socket some 200 amp verison use narrow verison which it is basically the same width as 100 amp socket is.

my POCO in Wisconsin do not allow narrow 200 amp socket at all due not much margin in the tub.

In France we run CT's anything over 120 or 160 amp depending on the set up.

The narrow socket typically about 9 inches wide just wide engough for meter socket to fit in there while standard 200 amp socket typically about 12 or 14 inches depending on manufacter plus the POCO specs requirement.

Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Sorry for the late reply, but I was out tonight...

To summarize some facts: I have 200A meter service, a 100A FPE panel in the original house, and the 100A panel in the workshop. Both are directly fed from the meter, and neither are "interconnected."

I had a POCO inspection just last week, since I've been planning to replace the FPE panel, and wanted to assure no surprises when I requested them to reinstall the meter when the work occurred. He reviewed the whole setup, and said everything was okay from the POCO side. He even let me snap a photo of the inside of the meter :thumbup: (see attached). Said they'd upgrade the meter service level if I needed to increase the size of the new panel. Discussed everything openly.

I've already marked the feed wires in the workshop panel, and re-seated the wires in the problem breaker. I also moved the doubled-up neutral wires into separate slots. Also tightened up some of the other breaker screws which had come a bit lose. Tomorrow I'll try to find a suitable bonding screw.

Since the POCO is okay with the way the wiring comes out of the meter box, I guess I need to look at resolving the issue of how to set up a grouped disconnect. If I may, a couple questions:


Any way this can be a DIY project? (That's why we're at this site, right)?
Any reason why the grouped disconnect cannot be established in the workshop? As an intregal part of the house, it'd still be "in the house." Also, the original panel is in a bathroom, and there's not lots of room for adding additional switches. (I'd love to move the whole panel to another location, but I'm concerned that'd be too difficult for DIY, and too expensive to contract out).
Thanks for your ongoing help!

Dan


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Ok as I did see the photo that is narrow 200 socket { my terms sorry about that one }

However the only quirk is netural connection due the meter socket cover it up but as long you got the POCO inspected you should be ok.

If this was done in my way I will use proper meter socket and have a disconnection switch right next to the meter socket that will take care all the issue related to the disconnecting means due you allready ran that to second main panel if this is detached garage then you must have main breaker at the meter socket.

Now you mention bathroom this is not my favour spot at all.{ the code is pretty specficed on this matter } and per current code we can not install the breaker box in bathroom in resdentail building.
What you have on the other side of the wall where the breaker box located?

Adding a disconnection switch near meter socket at DIY level ,..

Well if you are well verised and the local inspectors do not have any issue and POCO cut the drop off it can be done however before you start anything here it is a good time to check the local office to see what they stand on this matter due some area they do not want the DIY touch the meter socket { simaur way with some POCO }

The other issue is power outage expect at least minum of half day I am qouteing from my experanice so it can go long as a full day without power in case something else do come up so just Attendez-vous l'inattendu.{ expect the unexpected }

If you have question just holler here one of us will help ya.

Merci,Marc


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Wouldn't the easiest solution be a new meter/base with a main 200a disconnect ?
POCO here would not allow me to replace service feed, never asked about the meter setup
I'm willing to bet I could have done the meter & new panel & then just hired an electrician to make the final connection with new feed

That's nice that you snapped that pic, ends all doubt as to how its all hooked up


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Don't forget if you put the main disconnect (group disconnect) at the meter, then both panels have to have ground wires strung to them through the respective conduits and have neutrals and grounds separated within the panels.

Does this project have to be done yesterday? Or can you leave it as-is whil you think about the alternatives?


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> What you have on the other side of the wall where the breaker box located?


The breaker panel is located directly behind the meter, mounted into the exterior wall. I'm attaching a diagram that gives more detail to the layout.

De temps en temps au moin l'inattendu. (My wife's quote from barely-remembered highschool French...)

Dan


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Well at least there isn't a shower in that bathroom - less moisture

A question for the Pro's
Did it ever meet code to have panels like this in 2 different locations ?
If so, then it's pre-existing...maybe


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

AllanJ said:


> Does this project have to be done yesterday? Or can you leave it as-is whil you think about the alternatives?


Nope, I can wait! :yes: I'll get the bonding screw in today, but otherwise I'm still in planning mode (and may stay that way for a while; this situation's definitely more complex than I expected).

Is there a reference source for learning more about setting up group disconnects? I'd like to get more details about the materials involved, and the standard setup...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

It's always hard to say if previous installations were inspected or not. This installation likely would not have been approved. The poco guy may not have a problem with the meter can but IMO your building code inspector isn't going to like it one bit. And then again he may let it go as is .. 

Your eventually going to have to deal with the local codes authority to determine how they want the grouping of disconnects. But it won't be at the workshop it will be close to the meter location and likely in the form of a meter/main enclosure or main disconnect enclosure close to the meter. Both disconnects must be together not on one side of the wall from each other.

The poco will have a list of meter enclosure manufacturers the accept or they may not care and you can get whatever you want....usually though they have preferences.

A simple way to be compliant (if the local codes authority wants grouping) is a meter/main. What you ideally want is some way to use the wires to the workshop panelboard without splicing them. The wires to the fpe panel board behind the brick are short so replacing them is not an issue. 

Or you can have two service disconnects on that outside wall by the meter. 

Anyway I don't see any reason to correct this grouping thing till you have time to look at options and talk to the local code people.

The bonding screw needs to be a sqaured d 'green' bonding screw which you can get at an electrical supply. I wouldn't use just any ole machine screw.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

No inspections here. I live in an area where there are no inspections required. In this type of situation, I'm begining to see the downside of this. The immediate downside is that there's nobody to consult with. I guess the upside is that any solution I decide on will be "approved." :wink:

Meanwhile, I just got back from making the shopping rounds, including a bonding screw. Doesn't fit. :furious: My fault, didn't know the brand of the 2nd panel (after all this, you'd think.......).

While at the orange box (which didn't have any bonding screws), I talked to their electrician sales person. Another concern he raised: If #4 wire is going from the meter to either panel (or both), it's a problem because it junctures off the 200A meter; a short could cause 200A to feed to a single panel, which could overload #4 wire.

We discussed a solution of converting the situation to a true main and sub panel setup. I'm replacing the FPE panel anyway, so I could replace with a 200A panel, sub the other panel off it, and use the existing cable to finish the connection (plus the other obvious details). I might have to splice the #4 wire, though, to reach the the main panel. I could to this in the junction box just off the meter, and feed the cable through the meter box into the wall to the panel. (See attached photo). Any problems with splicing, if done with proper splicing harness?

Also talked possibly putting the new main panel outside, to remove it from the bathroom. I hate outside panels, particularly since this panel would would be street-facing (although only a cul-de-sac street; we're on a corner). I'd have to make a new hole through the brick wall for wiring, deal with splices, etc. I just don't know...


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I just looked at the close-up pic of the wire to the further panel & it looks like #2 wire

Do not do anything a big box store tells you to or trust what they say until you have verified it
Some stores may have some knowledgeable people, most do not

Power doesn't "Go" it is drawn
You would have to exceed 100a on one feed wire before you would have a problem
And even then the breaker panel main 100a breaker kicks out


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

(Hmmm. I posted a reply earlier, but don't see it here now. Must have missed a button before jumping to lunch. Guess I'll try again...)

Good eye, Dave. I don't do this every day, so I don't recognize the guages of wires by site. Also, the exposed wire printed everything BUT the guage. At least I know it's rated for outdoor conduit.

The "drawn" vs "go" error is mine, not the orange apron guy (I'm still screwing up standard terminology). He's apparently this store's go-to guy for all things electrical, and seemed to have a lot of experience as an electrician before retiring to HD.

Anyway, good to know the wire issue isn't another problem -- plenty enough as is!

I've installed the correct bonding screw. Now to contemplate solutions to the bigger problems...


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I just looked at the close-up pic of the wire to the further panel & it looks like #2 wire
> 
> Do not do anything a big box store tells you to or trust what they say until you have verified it
> Some stores may have some knowledgeable people, most do not
> ...


Dave. On the subject of obtaining reliable technical and Code-compliant information. I just heard on the news (I think CBS Radio) this past Friday, that one of the major home renovation organizations attached to Home centers is recalling One Million copies of a book that shows a diagram for electrical wiring, that if followed, could cause a fire! In one of the threads there was a discussion by an OP, where he said that a book that's being published, surely checks out the technical information. :no:!


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Itsdanf said:


> We discussed a solution of converting the situation to a true main and sub panel setup. I'm replacing the FPE panel anyway, so I could replace with a 200A panel, sub the other panel off it, and use the existing cable to finish the connection (plus the other obvious details). I might have to splice the #4 wire [_*actually #2*_] , though, to reach the the main panel. I could to this in the junction box just off the meter, and feed the cable through the meter box into the wall to the panel. (See attached photo). Any problems with splicing, if done with proper splicing harness?
> 
> Also talked possibly putting the new main panel outside, to remove it from the bathroom. I hate outside panels, particularly since this panel would would be street-facing (although only a cul-de-sac street; we're on a corner). I'd have to make a new hole through the brick wall for wiring, deal with splices, etc. I just don't know...


Any suggestions on these options...?


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

You are not supposed to take unfused wire (the wire from the power co) through the samp pipe with fused wire ( the wire you will be running to make your other wire a sub panel)! :no:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> Any suggestions on these options...?



Looking at this whole installation for code compliance you have several issues to overcome.

The FPE panel is in a bathroom behind the toilet. This in itself is a big code violation. The worst place for an electrical panel is a bathroom and having a toilet set in front of it is another code violation. So if you upgrade the FPE panel an inspector is going to require you to move it out of the bathroom. Or remove the bathroom..... This of course is based on your area requiring inspections for this type work. I wouldn't want my FPE loadcenter where yours is....:no:

Not wanting a outside meter/main set-up I would do the following. I'd extend the circuts or move them to a new location close to the meter outside of the bathroom and not in a closet. Install my new *200* amp loadcenter. Then replace the service entrance wires to the new loadcenter (the old ones are not going to reach anyway).

Once that is done you need to run a *4* wire feeder to the square d panel at the workshop. Your present feeder is three wire so your going to have to run a equipment ground to the workshop panel. It looks to me like those a #1 or 1/0 copper conductors in that conduit to the workshop. so your probably going to have to pull those out and reinstall all four wires together. If you do that be sure to pull rope/string in the conduit as you pull the wires out. 

I hate splicing feeders but you can if you want as you mentioned earlier. But that conduit run across the outside of your house looks cheesy.... I would look for an alternate route either inside using cable like SER or underground in conduit using the existing wires. Hopefully without splicing them. Then install a 100 amp breaker in the new loadcenter to protect the new feeder. Do away with the tap at the meter. This way you have a single disconnect at the new main breaker loadcenter that removes power from your home and all is well.

You cannot run the feeder to the workshop in the same conduit with the service entrance wires coming from the meter to the new 200 amp panel. You might consider using cable like SEU or SER for the service entrance conductors from meter to new panel location using the existing hole in the brick if it makes life easier.

Does the house have basement access below the meter location? I am assuming the window to the left of the meter is the bathroom window?


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Okay, I've resigned myself to moving the main panel, and avoiding routing anything through the meter enclosure.

I've been struggling with a new pannel location, because 1) I'm on a slab, and 2) I've got a partial 2nd floor, which covers most of the obvious locations for a new panel. On the attached diagram. The shaded area shows the 2nd floor covered area -- the area I have no attic access for installing a panel below. 

After some study (i.e., eliminating unavailable walls and consulting with the wife), I've marked the preferred location for the new box. The upside to this location is that the circuit wires coming from the attic (majority of the wires to the panel) will likely reach the new location with no splicing. :thumbup: The downside is that the new panel will be above the side of the dryer, which raises the panel up a bit (see photo of location; old panel is just in the background). Let me guess: Code problems? I could move the panel instead to the alternative location; however, I'd have to splice most of the wiring, and deal with a tighter work location in the attic (close to roof overhang).

Either way, I'll plan on re-wiring to the panel in the workshop (thanks Stubbie for the detailed advice). I'll probably re-route the conduit to go into the attic above the brick. I can't route through the attic due to the 2nd level, and don't want to try going under the driveway. (Anyway, I'm not sure it's so cheezy -- it's more like post-modern industrial chic :laughing:; see photos).

Thanks for ongoing feedback!

Dan

PS: Is there a link to code restrictions regarding panel locations? I'd like to read up more...


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Have you considered the garage for the new main ?
Then you could re-use the wiring to the shop as it would be long enough


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Have you considered the garage for the new main ?
> Then you could re-use the wiring to the shop as it would be long enough


The garage was my first preference, but the upstairs covers ALL of the garage. I couldn't figure out a way to route any wiring to there from the attic. 

...unless I put it all into conduit and route through the top of the walls (just below the ceilings, or via the outside). Of course, if I did that, I'd have to deal with routing any future circuit additions through the conduit. Also, I already have 27 circuits from the original panel (including 7 240V), plus the wiring from the workshop panel-- yuck. (Also, it might look... hmm, what's the phrase?... -- yeah, cheezy. :yes

There are disadvantages to having a slab (along with the advantages, of course...).


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

As per the NEC for your service disconnect
225.31 Disconnecting Means.​​​​Means shall be provided
for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or
pass through the building or structure.​
225.32 Location.​​​​The disconnecting means shall be installed
either inside or outside of the building or structure
served or where the conductors pass through the building or
structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.
For the purposes of this section, the requirements​
in 230.6 shall be utilized.
230.6 ​​​​Conductors Considered Outside the Building.​
Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or
other structure under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of
concrete beneath a building or other structure
(2) Where installed within a building or other structure in a
raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less
than 50 mm (2 in.) thick
(3) Where installed in any vault that meets the construction
requirements of Article 450, Part III
(4) Where installed in conduit and under not less than
450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other​structure

225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General.​​​​The disconnecting means for each supply
permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six
switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure,​
in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switch-
board. There shall be no more than six disconnects per​supply grouped in anyone location.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm sorry but I am not following. What does feeders to detached buildings in part 2 of art 225 have to do with anything we are talking about? This is a service to a single family dwelling.


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## codeone (Dec 31, 2009)

Stubbie said:


> I'm sorry but I am not following. What does feeders to detached buildings in part 2 of art 225 have to do with anything we are talking about? This is a service to a single family dwelling.


Oops wrong section , was in a hurry and tired sorry.:whistling2:
Should have been=

VI. Service Equipment - Disconnecting Means
230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all
conductors in a building or other structure from the serviceentrance
conductors.
(A) Location. The· service disconnecting means shall be
installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(l), (A)(2), and
(A)(3).
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
means shall be installed at a readily accessible location
either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the​
point of entrance of the service conductors.
(2) Bathrooms. Service disconnecting means shall not be​
installed in bathrooms.
230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each
service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of serviceentrance
conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No.1,
3,4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets
of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six
switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single
enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a
switchboard. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects​
per service grouped in anyone location.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

codeone said:


> Oops wrong section , was in a hurry and tired sorry.:whistling2:
> Should have been=
> 
> VI. Service Equipment - Disconnecting Means
> ...


No problem I understand what happens when your tired....


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok using the word "cheesy" for that conduit was not politically correct. Let me re-phrase ... the LB conduit body on the side of the meter can is "cheesy" and the conduit is peachy nice.... That conduit does have support brackets I hope....

Well ... you have more obstacles than I thought so I see your dilemma. I don't think you gain much moving that panel from where it is now. Above the dryer is not compliant either. You do not have the required "free" working space.

Let me run this by you. What about a meter main combo like this ....










This has 8 spaces with a 200 amp main breaker installed and feed thru lugs at the bottom of the buss rack. You would install a 100 amp breaker under the 200 amp main breaker in two of the spaces for the feeder to the shop. The other spaces could be for outdoor lighting or whatever you would like. 

There may be some meter mains with less spaces you just have to go to an electrical supply and see what they have in their catalogs.

Use the feed thru lugs to feed a new 200 amp mlo panel (no main breaker in it just main lugs) installed where your existing fpe panel is now unless you can figure out a way to get to the garage. 

This will get rid of those big split bolt splices you have now.

We are splitting hairs here as for code compliance for a service. Art. 230.70 (A)(2) says service disconnecting means are not to be installed in bathrooms. So in this case your service disconnecting means is not in the bathroom it is in the outside meter main. but then you have problems with panelboards in bathrooms but one out of two ain't all bad..... Also you do not have a shower or bath tub so the humidity issue is considerably less. Panels don't like humid environments....

Anyway though I don't in particular like this advice it is a viable option IMO under the circumstances. You need 4 wire feeders to both panels with neutral and ground separated in those panels which means your going to be throwing away that bonding screw you just bought and adding grounding bars to the square d panel. The ground and neutral are bonded at your meter main (service equipment). I'd opt for a square d 200 amp mlo panel in the bathroom also or whatever location you end up with just to keep uniformity of the panels.

EDIT: If I were you I'd have the power company come out and pull the meter and get power off the line side if you choose this option. You really are not to mess with the meter as a DIY project. You do not want to install a new meter can with hot line side service entrance conductors so cover that base and don't be foolish.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

codeone said:


> Oops wrong section , was in a hurry and tired sorry.:whistling2:
> Should have been=
> 
> VI. Service Equipment - Disconnecting Means
> ...


Codeone, I hope you know that not just I, but hundreds of us on this site appreciate the efforts you and the other pros put to give us useful, valid and safe information. You could be relaxing somewhere, having a cold one, doing something else. Instead, you're working on this site to share your knowledge, help all of us out and do a good thing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your efforts greatly. To you and all the other expert contributors, thank you.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Stubbie said:


> Ok using the word "cheesy" for that conduit was not politically correct. Let me re-phrase ... the LB conduit body on the side of the meter can is "cheesy" and the conduit is peachy nice.... That conduit does have support brackets I hope....
> 
> Well ... you have more obstacles than I thought so I see your dilemma. I don't think you gain much moving that panel from where it is now. Above the dryer is not compliant either. You do not have the required "free" working space.
> 
> ...


I was ROFLMAO when I saw the original "cheesy" comment! I couldn't resist plagiarizing it one (or twice). :laughing: 

I'm surprised you're giving up on moving the panel out of the bathroom. In some twisted, masochistic way, I was almost looking forward to moving it out of there. However, doesn't make sense to move it if it will still be out of compliance or irregularly installed. It sounds like your latest recommendations make a lot of sense. My POCO inspector/engineer seems like a good guy, and I'll consult in detail with him to figure how this can work out with them. I'm willing for him to do as much as he's willing, including as much of the meter can install as he can. :yes:

Thanks for all the great advice and patience through my irregular situation.

Dan


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Your welcome ... the more I look at your house the more I think some jokester turned it around backwards.....:wink:


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

I REALLY hate bumping this thread up again, but I need input on my latest situation, and don't want to replicate a lot of historical info in a new post...

Here's the deal: I decided to simply replace my main load center, and properly wire the "sub" panel as a true sub. I'd planned everything out, and with the good weather recently, was ready to purchase a new panel and parts, and get started.

However, I took a closer look at the service feed from the meter socket box. The meter box is attached to the outside brick wall, and a nipple (2" metal tube with threads on each end) connects the back of the meter box, through the wall, to the back of the load center -- through which the service wires travel (see photo below; service wires enter in upper-left of back of panel). The old box is 24" tall. The new box will be 39" tall. There's NO WAY to connect the existing nipple to the new box through an available cutout in the new box without having a serious alignment problem -- either forcing me to install the box too high or too low. Because the load center mounts flush into the wall, there's no room behind it to route the service wires higher and keep the box flush with the wall.

The only way I can see to fix this: Use conduit within the wall cavity to move the service wires up to a higher level. Then fur out the studs a couple inches to frame a new opening for the load center to mount into. Then drywall around the opening to minimize the ugly mess! Not a lovely sight for a small, finished half-bath!

...but, I've come up with another idea. The current load center's in a bathroom wall. As discussed earlier in this thread, it's not a good location, but it's very difficult to relocate due to the upper floor and slab foundation. However, to the left of the bathroom is a stairwell, with a 4' x 4' landing (see photo below). If I can access the landing wall from the attic, I might be able to relocate the panel there (about where the picture is on the wall). It'd end up about 7' from the meter (about a 10' service wire run). I'd put a smaller junction box where the current load center is, to hold some required splicing.

So, if this is possible, are there any code problems or other issues with placing the service panel in the wall of a 4' x 4' stairwell landing??


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## kossuth (Aug 15, 2009)

Ok reading this just made me alittle confused, so help me out if you wouldn't mind. My home on the the neutral and the ground are bonded, always has been. Passed home inspection that way, and has a sticker from the county electrican saying it was up to date on XXX date. I'm not an electrican so beg my ignorance. My understanding is that the only time the neutral and ground must be separate is with a subpanel being feed by a main panel, correct? :huh:


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

tsdanf (Poster#64) I will not address myself to the Code compliance part of your planned installation. I'm just commenting on the urgent need to replace the loadcenter that is presently in use. It looks like it's made by Federal Pacific Electric. (FPE). A formerly great Company, that went down due to shortcuts in the manufacturing process and low quality materials. People don't realize how dangerous these products are. (Both, the breakers and the panel). Because they present a passive danger. Meaning. they are not an active fire hazard. But when called upon to cut the power when a short circuit or ground fault occurs, they don't perform. Another fact that lulls people into thinking the breakers are OK, is that they DO provide excellent overload protection (Even the bad ones.):furious:!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

kossuth said:


> Ok reading this just made me alittle confused, so help me out if you wouldn't mind. My home on the the neutral and the ground are bonded, always has been. Passed home inspection that way, and has a sticker from the county electrican saying it was up to date on XXX date. I'm not an electrican so beg my ignorance. My understanding is that the only time the neutral and ground must be separate is with a subpanel being feed by a main panel, correct? :huh:


Where are you located ?

Any Main shut-off located before the panel ?


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

kossuth said:


> Ok reading this just made me alittle confused, so help me out if you wouldn't mind. My home on the the neutral and the ground are bonded, always has been. Passed home inspection that way, and has a sticker from the county electrican saying it was up to date on XXX date. I'm not an electrican so beg my ignorance. My understanding is that the only time the neutral and ground must be separate is with a subpanel being feed by a main panel, correct? :huh:


No. It's slightly different. The rule is that at the Service entrance the Neutral MUST be Grounded. Meaning. They must be together. But on any connection further downstream they MUST be Separate. Also, any connection past the first Switch, is no longer considered Service Equipment. The conclusion is, that any Sub panel or even the main panel that is past a Service Disconnect Switch must have the GROUND and NEUTRAL connections separate.:yes::yes:!


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

spark plug said:


> tsdanf (Poster#64) I will not address myself to the Code compliance part of your planned installation. I'm just commenting on the urgent need to replace the loadcenter that is presently in use. It looks like it's made by Federal Pacific Electric. (FPE). A formerly great Company, that went down due to shortcuts in the manufacturing process and low quality materials. People don't realize how dangerous these products are. (Both, the breakers and the panel). Because they present a passive danger. Meaning. they are not an active fire hazard. But when called upon to cut the power when a short circuit or ground fault occurs, they don't perform. Another fact that lulls people into thinking the breakers are OK, is that they DO provide excellent overload protection (Even the bad ones.):furious:!


Spark Plug,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, it's definitely an FPE, and I'm aware of the dangers associated with them. It's my primary motivation for tackling this effort -- not the irregular "sub" (that was a side issue for me). I'm preparing for a kitchen remodel, and need to add circuits for the project. I refuse to expand the current unsafe FPE box; I want it gone, and replaced with a decent box with breakers I can trust, and which can handle the upcoming expansion.

I want to be fully up to code if possible, even though my area requires no inspections. Fixing the sub is the easy issue. However, I'm challenged with the key problem of the primary load center's location (the background on that was the only reason I kept the original thread, instead of starting a new one -- a mistake, I now realize; too much information on old and confusing issues).

Since the original thread discussions in January, I've been considering the options, and the only thing that makes sense to me is to either relocate the load center to the stairwell landing, or keep it in the 1/2 bath. 

I know that my current FPE load center with the disconnecting means violates NEC 230.70(A)(2). If I simply replace it, the new box will still be in violation -- but it won't be a FPE anymore! The thread in January discussed putting a separate disconnecting means outside, with the new load center remaining in the 1/2 bath -- still be a code violation. Since then, I've lost my belief that an outside disconnecting means is significantly better than simply replacing the box -- both scenarios are code violations, and the complexities of adding the outside disconnecting means makes that scenario less attractive.

I was back in the attic today, and it looks like it will be more difficult to route to the stairway landing location than I thought. :furious: If that location would avoid code violations, I might attempt it anyway. However, if it's still a bad location, I'm inclined to stick with the bathroom -- lesser of all other evils.

Any expert feedback on this mess would be greatly appreciated!


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## kossuth (Aug 15, 2009)

spark plug said:


> No. It's slightly different. The rule is that at the Service entrance the Neutral MUST be Grounded. Meaning. They must be together. But on any connection further downstream they MUST be Separate. Also, any connection past the first Switch, is no longer considered Service Equipment. The conclusion is, that any Sub panel or even the main panel that is past a Service Disconnect Switch must have the GROUND and NEUTRAL connections separate.:yes::yes:!


Thanks a bunch that is perfectly clear. In my case the power comes off the pole, hits the meter and goes straight to the main panel. So there's no disconnect prior to the main panel in my case (but I imagine places like apartments and such may/will require one). Thanks again.


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