# Air handler not pushing enough air



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Could be the cap, or could be a dirty air filter and or evap coil.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Thanx for the reply...
Definitely not the filter... and I assume the coils are fine since two different techs looked at the system and said the look fine...
Hoping its the cap


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Direct drive or belt driven blower? It's possible the belt is loose or worn if the latter. Has the motor been replaced or rewired to run at a lower speed? Lots of variables, sorry. Obstructed intake, bad filter, many different possible causes.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Direct drive
Set on highest speed
Original motor


----------



## Mr.HVAC (Jan 1, 2010)

If you're sure that your ducts are ok. Then yes it could be a capacitor and a motor. I would replace the capacitor since it's cheap. It could also be that the tech reduced the cooling speed when he was there. Try the capacitor first. If you have a meter, then you can know for sure. If you have one let me know and I will show you


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

I have one... doesn't do capacitance though... but I can check it for open or short....
Now I just need to find a local place open tomorrow.
Thanx for your help...


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Many techs look at one side of the coil only.


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> I have one... doesn't do capacitance though... but I can check it for open or short....
> Now I just need to find a local place open tomorrow.
> Thanx for your help...


 You can check it with an ohmmeter...preferably an analog meter. At 1K it should move to 0, then swing to infinity.


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Missouri Bound said:


> Direct drive or belt driven blower? It's possible the belt is loose or worn if the latter. Has the motor been replaced or rewired to run at a lower speed? Lots of variables, sorry. Obstructed intake, bad filter, many different possible causes.


 When the guy was replacing the bearings on squirrel cage could he have adjusted the pulley on motor slowing it down?
Could it just be that the motor sounds quieter now with new bearings in squirrel cage?


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> Thanx for the reply...
> Definitely not the filter... and I assume the coils are fine since two different techs looked at the system and said the look fine...
> Hoping its the cap


They may have only looked at the discharge/fan side of the A/C coil. may techs don't look at both sides of the coil.

Could also be that they wired it to run on low speed by mistake.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Sorry for the confusion...but it was the outside motor that was replaced, the inside unit hasn't been touched by the techs, only inspected.
Thanx


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Could have loose insulation in the blower compartment, that is blocking air flow.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

to check that I would need to remove the blower and look up, right?


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Is it a furnace with A/C coil on top of furnace? Or an air handler.

It can be very hard to see the inlet side of the evap coil, if your looking up from the bottom of the furnace, but it is possible on 80% efficient furnaces.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

So I got a new Run Cap for $35... which I thought was a fair price till I saw Allied sells it for $8, but thats OK, helping to support my local companies 

hooked it up and it seemed a little better...
then I happened to check and saw that the unit still had the same air filter that I installed in september, apparently the renter didnt know you were supposed to change them 

when I took off the dirty filter, I got a decent amount of air coming out the vents... so hopefully that was the main issue...

time will tell...
Thanx a ton for all who offered up some ideas and thoughts....
hoping for another 2 years out of the system before I need to replace it 
-Danny


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

That wasnt it.....

Question... everyone I have talked to says that when a motor goes bad, it will just stop... never do they slow down... is that true? 
I dont want to pay 300 for a motor if thats not the issue....

Next I guess I will try cleaning the evap coils....
from what Ive read, ill start with a shop vac and brush attachment, then maybe some mild dawn soap and water, and rinse it off, then maybe vacuum again...

hopefully that will help


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

They sometimes run slow, instead of just stopping.

make sue you clean the inlet side, not just the discharge side.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

would I be correct in assuming the inlet side is the side the air hits first and then cooled off as it goes out the discharge side?


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> would I be correct in assuming the inlet side is the side the air hits first and then cooled off as it goes out the discharge side?


Yep, you got it.


----------



## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

dcastillo said:


> That wasnt it.....
> 
> Question... everyone I have talked to says that when a motor goes bad, it will just stop... never do they slow down... is that true?
> I dont want to pay 300 for a motor if thats not the issue....
> ...


Most of the time they just stop,but sometimes they just slow down and run real hot in my experiance anyway


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

That's good... cause the inlet is the easy side to get to....


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

beenthere said:


> They sometimes run slow, instead of just stopping.
> 
> make sue you clean the inlet side, not just the discharge side.


Could I check and see if its running slow by reading the current draw to the motor? (with a Clamp meter)

Or is there another way to verify the motor is running at full (proper) speed?

thanx
Danny


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

I have this same issue so I figured I would add my troubleshooting in hopes we can both get this figured out.

You can barely feel any air at all when you put your hand up to the vent.
It doesn't matter if it's on FAN, HEAT, or COOL the air flow coming out of the vents is the same.

I had this problem last year ever since i bought the house and over the winter and cannot seem to get it resolved.


It's a trane XR 11 system. The air handler matches.
It's a 1344 sq foot house, 1 story. 
It has 10 flex ducts run off of the main plenum in a spider configuration.
8 are 6 inches and 2 are 4 inches.

- All my duct work is sealed with mastic and foil tape
- I've had the evap coil, and condensor coil cleaned
- the outside fan runs
- inside air handler runs.
- My plenum came made 2 90 degree turns coming out of the air handler so over the winter I modified it and made it a diagonal in hopes that would help... it didn't.

Other than that I'm at a loss of what to do. I've looked into getting in line duct booster fans but they said those are just for if you have 1 or 2 rooms that have low air flow...this is all of them. 

Will be payng close attention to this thread to see the results.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> Could I check and see if its running slow by reading the current draw to the motor? (with a Clamp meter)
> 
> Or is there another way to verify the motor is running at full (proper) speed?
> 
> ...


 
You can check amperage. Also check the capacitor. Need a meter that reads microfarad (mfd).


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

capacitor is brand new, just installed it.... didnt seem to help...
Thanx
Danny


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> I have this same issue so I figured I would add my troubleshooting in hopes we can both get this figured out.
> 
> You can barely feel any air at all when you put your hand up to the vent.
> It doesn't matter if it's on FAN, HEAT, or COOL the air flow coming out of the vents is the same.
> ...


 
How's the air flow with the plenum completely off? Does it blow hard? A plenum should be straight, should fit the opening of the rear of the coil perfectly, 3' in length and then you should have the proper sized duct work.

You can check the static pressure (hire someone to do so if need be as you need a magnahelic or a digital manometer) to see how badly the air is being retricted.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> capacitor is brand new, just installed it.... didnt seem to help...
> Thanx
> Danny


Check voltage to the unit ,to and through the board and to the motor. What is it at each spot? Check that amperage draw. Usually when a motor begins to weaken it will pull higher amps as it slows down trying to accomplish the work by use of more power, pulling more amps.

Run windings could be weak.

A big thing when motors fail is lack of proper air flow. The motors require a certain amount of cfm to keep them cool enough to not burn up.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Ill check the current draw and the voltage to the motor next time I get to the rental unit... hopefully tonight...
thanx for the advice.
Danny


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> How's the air flow with the plenum completely off? Does it blow hard? A plenum should be straight, should fit the opening of the rear of the coil perfectly, 3' in length and then you should have the proper sized duct work.
> 
> You can check the static pressure (hire someone to do so if need be as you need a magnahelic or a digital manometer) to see how badly the air is being retricted.


 
How hard is hard? When I had it open it didnt blow any harder than a 20 inch box fan from walmart.

The plenum can only be 3 feet in length? Wow. Mines alot longer than that. See pic here:


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Have you checked to see if there are speed taps on the control board and if the motor is connected to the proper one for each call? There are usually four; hi, med-hi, med-lo, lo. It also could be labeled cool and heat.

In cooling mode the fan should be set at highest speed and for heating on med-lo to low unless again, there are air flow issues and the unit trips out of high temperature limit which one way to "fix" that would be to increase the speed during heating.

Has the outdor unit ever been changed and if so is it the correct size for the air handler or is it too small thereby someone lowered the blower motor setting to match the smaller outside condenser?

All possibilities.


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> Have you checked to see if there are speed taps on the control board and if the motor is connected to the proper one for each call? There are usually four; hi, med-hi, med-lo, lo. It also could be labeled cool and heat.
> 
> In cooling mode the fan should be set at highest speed and for heating on med-lo to low unless again, there are air flow issues and the unit trips out of high temperature limit which one way to "fix" that would be to increase the speed during heating.
> 
> ...


According to the techs I had out there the outdoor unit and indoor unit matched. I do not know if anything has been swapped out as I've only had the house a year and it was a bank owned property. 

I tried to check the control board before but couldn't figure it out. It wasn't labeled at all so I didn't want to mess anything up. I'll see if I can find some instructions on that though.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> How hard is hard? When I had it open it didnt blow any harder than a 20 inch box fan from walmart.
> 
> The plenum can only be 3 feet in length? Wow. Mines alot longer than that. See pic here:


 
That is simply idiotic. That's a commercial step down trunk line design used on big commercial systems. 

What you need is a regular residential 3' PLENUM, not a 30' duct board commercial trunk line. And some dampers so you can balance that air meaning turn the air flow down through a few if you want more elsewhere.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

I've built and hung those trunk lines 100's of time over but ONLY on commerical work, never residential.


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Haha It's pretty much chaos up there but in my parents house which was built in the 90s their system is run the exact same way. Maybe whoever is doing the duct training in VA has been smoking something. I didn't do any of this duct work I'm just trying to fix the hell that has been unleashed already.

Let me make sure I understand correctly what i need to have.

3 foot plenum and then flex duct from that plenum to all of my vents?


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> Haha It's pretty much chaos up there but in my parents house which was built in the 90s their system is run the exact same way. Maybe whoever is doing the duct training in VA has been smoking something. I didn't do any of this duct work I'm just trying to fix the hell that has been unleashed already.
> 
> Let me make sure I understand correctly what i need to have.
> 
> 3 foot plenum and then flex duct from that plenum to all of my vents?


 
I guess I should slow my roll a bit. Not sure about other areas of the US, just that down here in Texas you won't find anything remotely close to that, not in residential.

What size system is it? And yes, a regular 3' plenum with main lines running out of it. For the amount of air I'm suspecting you need and to save space on the plenum, probably Y connections meaning you could come out with one 10" which would split down the line into two 8's.

Of course the size do the lines is all specualtion until we know the size requirements of the structure (heat load analysis), what is there right now, the duct sizes (if they are too big/small) and the size in cubic feet of each room so we know what size duct will be required to feed said room. 

Just looking at that big old trunk lines is making me cringe, I feel all hot and sticky.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't beleive that there is enough power in that residential blower to accomodate such a big trunk line. You're losing velocity and a lot of it.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Im guess that wasnt directed at me, but the guy who hijacked my thread  J/K... hopefully we both get our issues resolved...

If it was at me then...
nothing on the inside unit has been altered in the last 3 years.
The issue with the lower air pressure coming out the vents just started a month or so ago...
thanx
Danny


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

It's like if a girl is an inch away from you and blowing in your ear. Now let her walk to the other side of the room and try blowing in your ear from there. 

You won't feel it.

I guess that's a good comparison. :thumbup:


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> Im guess that wasnt directed at me, but the guy who hijacked my thread  J/K... hopefully we both get our issues resolved...
> 
> If it was at me then...
> nothing on the inside unit has been altered in the last 3 years.
> ...


 
It's an electrical problem. Board, capacitor, voltage or motor.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Both pics are of regular residential supply plenum box.


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Well I figure Texas is hot as crap in the summer and can get pretty cold in the winter too so you all prolly know what you are talking about and if it works better than the crap I have going on now then I'm all for changing it up. 

I have been told it's a 2 ton system.
I have done research on this style of duct system and they call it a Reducecd extended plenum duct system.
Apparently the plenum goes a certain distance then steps down a size as vents are run off of it.

I would love to be able to do a shorter plenum. It would make maneuvering around the attic alot easier. 

You have a how to or some diagrams somewhere so I can maybe design a better configuration.

I'll work on all the details of that analysis today.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Doc Holliday said:


> It's like if a girl is an inch away from you and blowing in your ear. Now let her walk to the other side of the room and try blowing in your ear from there.
> 
> You won't feel it.
> 
> I guess that's a good comparison. :thumbup:


Thats deep.....


And all I learned in school about electricity is comparing it to water.... wish I went to your school...


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

> Originally Posted by dcastillo
> _Im guess that wasnt directed at me, but the guy who hijacked my thread
> 
> 
> ...


 
Sorry I wasn't trying to hijack. I thought we might have the same issue but it appears we do not. I'll shut up haha.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

ryanxo said:


> Well I figure Texas is hot as crap in the summer and can get pretty cold in the winter too so you all prolly know what you are talking about and if it works better than the crap I have going on now then I'm all for changing it up.
> 
> I have been told it's a 2 ton system.
> I have done research on this style of duct system and they call it a Reducecd extended plenum duct system.
> ...


Im definitely not an AC expert....but wouldnt a 1344sqr ft house need more then a 2 ton system?


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> Well I figure Texas is hot as crap in the summer and can get pretty cold in the winter too so you all prolly know what you are talking about and if it works better than the crap I have going on now then I'm all for changing it up.
> 
> I have been told it's a 2 ton system.
> I have done research on this style of duct system and they call it a Reducecd extended plenum duct system.
> ...


 
2 ton? You kidding me? What size trunk line is it from there it starts off? And how big are those duct take offs/flex duct lines? 

Judging by the size of that trunk, the length and the size of the ducts your trunk line would be for something like a 7.5 ton minimum.

Let's say for each single ton you push 400 cfm. That would mean, and I'd have to ge out my ductulator and do some real research for the exact numbers, you could only use something like TWO 10" flext duct at best. That is all the air that system can push.

How many lines of what size duct is on that right now? No wonder you have no air. 

http://efficientcomfort.net/Rules_and_Rules_of_Thumb_for_Duct_Systems.pdf


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> 2 ton? You kidding me? What size trunk line is it from there it starts off? And how big are those duct take offs/flex duct lines?
> 
> Judging by the size of that trunk, the length and the size of the ducts your trunk line would be for something like a 7.5 ton minimum.
> 
> ...


There are 10 flex duct lines.
8 are 6 inches.
2 are 4 inches

Isnt the rule 1 ton per 600 square feet? That's what I was told.

According to that PDF. "A 2 ton system should have 10 or 11 outlets"


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> Im definitely not an AC expert....but wouldnt a 1344sqr ft house need more then a 2 ton system?


 
Rule of thumb only from the older days of less efficient systems such as the Trane XR11 woud be 500 sq ft per one ton. Btw, efficientcy means energy consumption, not that it won't produce cold or hot air, just that you pay more for it on your elecrical bill. 

Nowdays, around here at least, they say 600 sq ft per one ton with insulation and envelope being so much better than the old days. Again, just a simple rule of thumb and not the correct or scientific way to size an hvac system to a structure.

Better to be slightly undersized than slightly oversized for dehumidification factor, heat intensity of the air molecules. A 72 degree air molecule with high moisture content (humidity) will feel hotter and stickier to the skin than a much drier 72 degree air molecule due to less moisture in the air.

In other words, a/c run time needs to appropriate enough to dry the air as an a/c system is a dehumidier. A bigger or oversized system will shorten the run time as it satisfies the stat quicker. Not good.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> There are 10 flex duct lines.
> 8 are 6 inches.
> 2 are 4 inches
> 
> ...


Funny, it all looks so much bigger in the pic, like they're 10's and 12's.

Perhaps if they are very small 6" duct lines. It's actually not the amount of lines you have but the combined total cfm the system has to offer and how you disperse it, with the correct sized ducts leading to a room of equal cfm requirement.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/Ductwork.pdf


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_btuh_duct_sizing_air_conditioning_systems.html


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> Rule of thumb only from the older days of less efficient systems such as the Trane XR11 woud be 500 sq ft per one ton. Btw, efficientcy means energy consumption, not that it won't produce cold or hot air, just that you pay more for it on your elecrical bill.
> 
> Nowdays, around here at least, they say 600 sq ft per one ton with insulation and envelope being so much better than the old days. Again, just a simple rule of thumb and not the correct or scientific way to size an hvac system to a structure.
> 
> ...


 
The XR11 is an older system? Dang i thought it was newer. How old is it? Maybe it's time for a new one while I'm at it.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

If I'm not mistaken Trane prints the date of manufacture on their equipment data plate/sticker. American Standard and Trane are one and the same, why I'm posting the pic.


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Ok I have a pic of my air handler label that I took last year.

Looking at the manufacturer date now the air handler looks like it says 90 something but I know the outdoor unit was either 2007 or 2009 so that means they don't match I guess. Awesome! << Sarcasm


The pic is huge I'll resize it and add it later...


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Post the model numbers of both the inside air handler and the outside condenser. The size will be in the model number.


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> Could I check and see if its running slow by reading the current draw to the motor? (with a Clamp meter)
> 
> Or is there another way to verify the motor is running at full (proper) speed?
> 
> ...


I usually just look at them. Seen enough to pretty much know by sight if its running slow or not.

If its bearings causing it to run slow, then the amp draw will be high.


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Indoor Air Handler:

American Standard Inc.
Model: TWE024C140A0
Serial: N3234X11V
Motor HP: 1/4
F.L AMPS 1.7
Volts: 200-230
MFR Date: 08/96 << I think its hard to read. I know it's 90 something
I took a pic of the outdoor one but apparently it didn't save on my phone. I know it's XR11 tho.
Aha found the model #: model: 2TWR1024A1000AB
Checking my notes I wrote down that the outdoor unit was 6 years old and this was last year meaning it is 7 years old now.
Aka manufactured year: 2005


I used the indoor model# to do some searching and found this other thread on a HVAC forum. The fellow was having the same issue where the air flow out of his vents was just a trickle and he could barely feel it. The issue turned out to be the main control board.... "After many (good) limit switches being changed, the repair company finally replaced the main control board and the furnace is back to working as it did after it was initially installed."

Could that be an issue with mine? When I first got the house the attic fan didn't work so it was pushing 140+ up there during summer days... It could have easily burnt something up.


dcastillo did you check out things at your rental last night? Any updates? I'm still hoping our findings overlap and fix both of our issues.


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Of course it could be. All you need is an electrical meter to check the voltage being applied through the board to the motor. 

I think I've already stated that on here somewhere, to check voltages.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

ryanxo said:


> dcastillo did you check out things at your rental last night? Any updates? I'm still hoping our findings overlap and fix both of our issues.


Nope... 
Love how the tenant complains about the AC, but cant seem to find time for me to come take a look....

-Danny


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

dcastillo said:


> Nope...
> Love how the tenant complains about the AC, but cant seem to find time for me to come take a look....
> 
> -Danny


Ha! I was out in BFE Conroe, about 65 miles from where I live, on a service call. The home owner was talking to me on the phone, the tenants had a very difficult time waking up to let me in. I was banging and banging on their door and windows as I knew they were there, their vehicle was on the driveway.

Said their a/c was out for over a week and she, the landlord, had other people there to try and repair the problem but the tenants would never wake up to let them in. 

Go figure.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Doc, you seem to know your stuff.... 

Tenant said I can come by tomorrow evening...
While there I plan on cleaning the inlet side of the fins (bough a cleaner from HomeDepot) then will use a spray bottle to spray water to ensure all the cleaner is gone and finish off with a shopvac with brush attachment...

Ill also verify the current and voltage being delivered to the motor.
Am I correct in assuming if the voltage is low the circuit board is possibly bad, if the Current is high, then the motor is probably bad?


Ive been trying to locate a replacement motor just incase, but having a hard time figuring out the exact one I need

i found these three that seem correct
http://www.americanhvacparts.com/Me...Category_Code=m-trane&Product_Code=MOT39GE232
http://www.americanhvacparts.com/Me...ategory_Code=m-trane&Product_Code=MOT24251190
http://www.americanhvacparts.com/Me...&Category_Code=m-trane&Product_Code=MOT33GE23

but not sure how to verify...
attached is a picture of my airhandler, can you advise of if I am specking out the correct motor?


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

What's sucks is that my cell phone took a poop on me yesterday or I'd call the local Trane supply house and with the use of your model and serial numbers, find out exactly what motor to use. 

On a condenser fan motor you can see the sticker with the HP (horsepower), the rpm and the electrical supply. You'd have to literally pull the blower motor out of the air handler to be able to see the sticker on an air handler's motor. Other than that, use the model and serial numbers of the actual unit. 

Can you take a picture of the control board? Does it have speed taps or is it the pin type? There are different color wires going to the motor itself. One will be used for cooling, one for heat and one for fan and most likely an extra will be "parked" on the board, unused. 

If pin connection you need to see, if you can on the motor, which wire is being used for which call. Then check the pins for voltage by removing the actual pin harness connection and checking each individual pin for voltage while the unit is on call for either cool or heat or fan. Make sure you have the door switch taped in or the unit will have no power. You can pinpoint which pin is being used for cool or heat this way and then simply put the connector back on see which color wire lays on that pin. That will tell you which wire is being used for which call to the blower motor.

All a control board does is by way of low voltage direct the "traffic" of the high voltage. On call for cool, the high voltage should go through only one high voltage pin/spade on the board to the motor. On call for heat, a different pin/spade terminal. 

It's much easier to do if the board has spade terminsal with cool, heat, fan or hi, med-hi, med-lo, and lo. 

Can you take pics of the board?


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

But yes, the board needs to be receiving full voltage and it needs to be sending full voltage out of it to the blower. You check the incoming power at the furnace and the outgoing on the pins or spades to the blower. It should be the same.

If you have a clamp meter, check the amperage draw of the motor and compare it to what the motor calls for. Again, we'd need to be able to have that information which Trane does but my phone is dead. Sorry.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

I will try tomorrow....
thanx again
-Danny


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

All three of those motors are condenser fan motors, not air handler motors.

Can't remember, have you checked the run capacitor yet.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

yep, replaced it last week....

when I get there tomorrow, Ill just try and pull the blower assembly out and get the exact model off the motor, just incase its the issue....


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Blower motors are easy. Have 1/4" through 1/2" nutrdivers and or wratchets with you. That'd be 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2". Those are the common sizes of the individual screws and bolts to remove and dissassemble blower motor assemblies completely. 

And a good flashlight.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

just remembered... while Im in there, ill try to find the 1/4" socket i dropped last time


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

And a medium size (8" would work, or 10") adjustable wrench to loosen the blower wheel screw and to hold onto the blower motor shaft. DO NOT TAP ON THE END OF THE SHAFT OR YOU"LL MESS YOURSELF UP! Use some WD-40 or if you have to automotive or household cooking oil even and add some into where the screw on the blower housing attaches it to the blower shaft (you'll have to completely remove the screw and pour it into the hole), hold the shaft of the motor with the adjustable wrench (one side at minimum will have a straight edge), and twist the blower wheel. It'll loosen and slide off. 

If you tap on the end of the motor shaft you'll be needing to cut it to remove it from the blower wheel.


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> just remembered... while Im in there, ill try to find the 1/4" socket i dropped last time


Now we know whats slowing the blower down. LOL... J/K


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Now we know whats slowing the blower down. LOL... J/K


HA!! For the WIN!! :thumbup:


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

So here is what I found/did tonight....
First got access to the fins and vacuumed both sides (inlet and discharge) with a brush attachment.
Then sprayed it with some coil cleaner, let it soak, sprayed it with a water bottle.... then repeated... then vacuumed it after if dried
I then removed the blower assembly to try and get the model # of the motor...but it was hidden under hte bracket that goes around it, even tried to disconnect the squirrel cage but it wasnt happening... and I was pressed for time so I jsut took a bunch of photos and hopefully that can identify the model I need (If I need one)
I then put everything back together and verified the voltage to the entire blower assembly, it was about 243. 
I then verified the current draw to the motor at about 1.2Amps (well under the 1.7Amp rating on the front of the unit)
Also, someone (Doc?) was talking about checking the ciruit board while different things were being ran to see different speeds or something.... after looking at my system (and talking with an AC Journeyman that the tenant hired to put in the thermostat) there are only to positive connection points (red wire) to the motor, medium and low speed (high speed doesnt have a spade). So it would appear the only way to vary the speed of the fan is manually moving the wire.... but its currently on the highest possible setting....
Unfortunately I had to leave in a hurry before the guy finished putting in the thermostat to try everything out... so I will call her in the AM for an update....

Hopefully the problem is solved, cause Im out of ideas....

Is it bad to replace the motor with a stronger model (possibly higher RPMs) in order to increase the air flow some? Or would that mess up the entire balance of the system....
thanx for all your help...
I think (as a new homeowner) I may have to start hanging around this forum more for all the great advice...
Maybe layoff the Android Forum I normally hang out in 

-Danny


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The blower motor is a 1075RPM motor. A higher HP higher RPM motor wouldn't help much if any, unless if was about 60% higher speed, which would mean the motor would need to be about 4 times the HP of the current motor.

Is the black wire connected? Its the high speed tap.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

There were only 2 wires going directly to the motor windings, black and yellow. teh other ends went to each side of the cap...
then there was a red wire coming straight from the contactor/relay and that could be plugged into either A (low) or B (med), there was no C on my motor. 
There was a third wire on the capacitor (the first two went into the motor coils) connected to the same capacitor terminal as the black wire to the windings, and I beleive it went back to the circuit board area...

any thoughts?
I have a few pictures of the motor, circuit board and schematic if that helps...

thanx again, Ill call the tenat this AM and see what she thinks.
Danny


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

I went into mine yesterday and took the box out that has all the wires that run to the thermostat on it and looked inside and there was nothing in there that indicated choosing airflow speed. After tracing the schematic though I followed the wires running to the motor. There are 4 slots/clips to put wires on and according to the schematic A was Low, B was Med, and C was high. There was a red and a blue running to A and B. So i took those wires and moved them to B and C. 

Good news is when I turned my AC on and cranked the temp down a few degrees the air flow was about double the trickle it was before.
Then I turned it off and let the system turn off.
Bad news is that when I turned it to heat and cranked the temp up a few degrees above what it was in the house...there was nothing. 
So then I turned the fan from Auto to On and it came on.

I'm guessing that C aka high speed does not work on my motor.

Which wire controls which btw? I assumed Red for heat and blue for cool because it wouldnt make a damn bit of sense for them to make them that color then reverse it unless they were just trying to screw with DIYers.



dcastillo:

I may not be an AC pro by any means but I am a Google pro and I used those skills to find you this!
http://www.myhvacparts.com/store/trane-moto2615.php#1130 and it says it fits TWV024A140A0 with about 80 other models so I thought it might be a good shot.

They also carry the motor that fits mine which I'll include for future reference for any poor souls that have the same issues. 
*MOT02611 Trane 1/4 HP Air Handler Blower Motor (MOT02611)*


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Thanx Ryanxo.....

The (Google) Force is strong with you 

Now that I have the part number I could use a bit more of my Google skillz and found this
http://americanhvacparts.com/Mercha...&Product_Code=MOT512089&Category_Code=m-amana
much cheaper and supposedly replace my motor (and it claims to be more energy efficient too....


But Im still not sure if the motor is the issue or not...


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> There were only 2 wires going directly to the motor windings, black and yellow. teh other ends went to each side of the cap...
> then there was a red wire coming straight from the contactor/relay and that could be plugged into either A (low) or B (med), there was no C on my motor.
> There was a third wire on the capacitor (the first two went into the motor coils) connected to the same capacitor terminal as the black wire to the windings, and I beleive it went back to the circuit board area...
> 
> ...


Pics are always helpfull.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

here ye go


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The plug where the red wire is, should have high, med, and low. Put it on high if it isn't.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

correct, its got A, B, and C... but only A and B have the male spade, C (high) is empty... so it cant be connected to.... so I have it on medium....


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> correct, its got A, B, and C... but only A and B have the male spade, C (high) is empty... so it cant be connected to.... so I have it on medium....


Ok. Then you gotta cross your fingers cleaning the coil took care of the air flow.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

aint that the truth....

now my tenant is saying I should buy a new AC system just to get a more efficient one so she doesnt have to pay as high of an electric bill... jeeze.... I hate being a landlord!!!!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> aint that the truth....
> 
> now my tenant is saying I should buy a new AC system just to get a more efficient one so she doesnt have to pay as high of an electric bill... jeeze.... I hate being a landlord!!!!


LOl... Tell her ok, but she has to pay for 20% of it, since she'll be the one saving money.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

not sure how well that will fly, since legally I cant force that.....

But I could spec out the lowest end AC unit rated for my house and tell her she has to pay extra if she wants a better unit 

I guess it would be a good idea to get some type of an extended warranty on it so I dont have to deal with any issues down the road....


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> not sure how well that will fly, since legally I cant force that.....
> 
> But I could spec out the lowest end AC unit rated for my house and tell her she has to pay extra if she wants a better unit
> 
> I guess it would be a good idea to get some type of an extended warranty on it so I dont have to deal with any issues down the road....


Didn't mean to actually do it, just to say it to her, and watch her reaction.

Quite often, after a major improvement, or upgrade. many landlords raise the rent slightly to recover the cost.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

This tenant actually might be a bit more difficult...
at her last place, when the landlord did buy a new AC (since the old died and the house was going into foreclosure and he didnt want to put money into it), so she bought one and deducted it from her rent... he tried to take her to court and she won...

I just dont like the idea that she could easily sabotage the AC system so if doesnt work and force me into buying one.... I hate this landlord stuff... should have just given the house back to the bank


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

dcastillo said:


> This tenant actually might be a bit more difficult...
> at her last place, when the landlord did buy a new AC (since the old died and the house was going into foreclosure and he didnt want to put money into it), so she bought one and deducted it from her rent... he tried to take her to court and she won...
> 
> I just dont like the idea that she could easily sabotage the AC system so if doesnt work and force me into buying one.... I hate this landlord stuff... should have just given the house back to the bank


If your lease includes working CA, then she could. if it doesn't she can't make you replace it, or deduct the cost of a new one from the rent.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

This is awesome!!!!
So I text her two days later and asked if the AC seemed to be working any better... her response... wait for it.....

"I dont know, I havent turned it on, Im afraid of my electric bill being high!!!!"

ummm... so people scare me... is she just gonna wait till it gets really hot and has to turn it on to see if it works?

I just dont get some people...
-D


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

It's your property so if you upgrade the entire system than you'll not only be doing the tenant a favor but yourself as well. 

I've installed a bottom of the the line/entry level 14 SEER 410-A Rheem complete system in a one level approximately 1800 sq ft home. I went back one month later to address a drain issue (turned out to be the plumbing, not hvac) and she told me that last year her electric bill for the same month was over $400. This time it was $200. She couldn't be happier and more comfortable and all equipment is under warranty.

That's just one of many new system advantages, the bill.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

true, but the bill, doesnt help me at all... so its hard to see that point of view... personally I would like to just give the house to the bank, (underwater about 70K) but I dont feel thats rights, so Im trying to stick it out and do the right thing.
My goal is to take care of the tenant and provide a livable house per the lease...
if the AC system works, but isnt the most efficient, it stilll works and the lease didnt include anything about upgrading the the system...

on a side note, what is a reasonable cost for a new complete system?
house is 1267sqrft, wouldnt want the best or worse system, just average with a decent warranty.

thanx
Danny


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Depends. This beinga DIY site I migh even suggest purchasing the equipment yourself on line and having a licensed hvac contractor install and warranty the equipment. That way you'll only be paing labor and no equipment mark up.

Last month a guy approached me to do the exact same thing on his 600 sq ft. condo. He paid something like $1500 for all equipment, 3 ton (far too big) which also included the duct work. He paid a contractor $1500 to install it all so he got away dirt cheap for 3k total installed and warrantied.

If you were to pay a contractor from the get go (who has overhead and cost), just for new equipment installed (no duct work) and I'd suspect the system to be no bigger than 2 tons, possibly 3 tons, you might see prices in the range of 4-6k depending on your area. 

The system I installed wasn't any more than 6k total. Electric air handler (with evaporator coil inside) pan and condenser and that also included moving the system into the attic from a closet. 

Very reasonable.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Quick update.... after having another AC company take a look.... it appears the system is running perfectly fine, its just that after 12 yrs its no longer as efficient as it used to be and since it was slightly undersized to start... it just can't handle the house anymore..... (its a 2 ton, house is 1268sqrft)

I have gotten one quote for replacement using a trane 2.5 ton 13seer i think for $3300 with ten year warranty.....
Was going to get one more quote, but I don't think anyone is going to beat that price....

Question... should I keep my old unit? Could I sell it for parts on Craig's? Atleast the outside motor is only a week old.....

Thanx
Danny


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

A two ton unit should have no problem taking care of the HVAC needs for a house that size. Now keeping in mind windows and their condition, insulation or lack there of, climate and general construction methods will have an affect on that determination.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Climate = Florida
Its not even summer and some nights we barely hit 75 it seems like....
My unheated pool is already over 90!!!!
Thanx
Danny


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> Last month a guy approached me to do the exact same thing on his 600 sq ft. condo.


You have got to be kidding. 3 ton for 600sq ft.? What exactly did you tell him?


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Missouri Bound said:


> You have got to be kidding. 3 ton for 600sq ft.? What exactly did you tell him?


Maybe he's got really high ceilings


----------



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> You have got to be kidding. 3 ton for 600sq ft.? What exactly did you tell him?


 
I told him it was far too big but he had already bought the equipment. Same guy who he bought it from installed it in the end.


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Hmm. Well at least he won't have to buy a refrigerator.:laughing:


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Hey all. I'm back. 

Just to recap what I have done lately.
I redid my trunk into a 45 degree slant rather than the 2 90 degree turns it was and there was no Improvement in air flow. 
I moved the wires from A and B on the motor to B and C. Now AC works and has a little more air flow than before and heat doesnt work at all. I'm guessing that C on the motor doesn't work.
In the control box there was no place to change the speed .

The air handler is from 96. How much does a new one cost? The outdoor unit is a 2 ton Trane XR11. 
Is replacing just the air handler a bad idea? Obviously whoever replaced it before just replaced the outdoor unit and didn't replace the air handler. Can I do the opposite to bring them both up to par?


dcastillo... that lady sounds like a nut! Be careful!


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Yes, you can just replace the air handler.


----------



## kilosos2 (Oct 14, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Yes, you can just replace the air handler.


beenthere does the xr11 take 410a?


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

kilosos2 said:


> beenthere does the xr11 take 410a?


No, its an R22 unit. The new air handle will just need either the correct size R22 piston, or R22 TXV installed on it.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

anybody want to buy my outside universal motor? 
less then 2 months old....

(just thought Id ask...)

Should I bother keeping anything else off the unit when they remove it, or just let them take it?
I know I could get some money if I strip it apart myself, but I dont htink its much and I would still need someway to get it to my house, since I dont own a truck....
They also said its against the law for them to remove the freon for me... So Im not sure how much I could really take apart...
thanx
Danny


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

LOL... There is NO law against them removing the refrigerant for you. They want it to scrap it themselves. Many contractors figure the scrap value as part of the job price. And some leave their guys have it as a bonus.

They can charge you a fee for recovering it though if they were to recover it for you.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

Is it even worth it for me... how much are we talking ?


----------



## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Varies with the unit. 75, maybe 150 bucks. Of course, they could charge you 75 bucks to recover it. And you won't know unit you scrap it how much you'll get for scrap.


----------



## dcastillo (Apr 6, 2012)

So... new system is installed... everything seems to be working well...
I let them take the old unit, but I kept the universal motor...
let me know if anyone is interested...
-Danny


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

I've been searching for air handlers and checking prices. I think at this point I am just going to replace the whole thing for a more efficient one. It's from the 90s so I'm ok with that. I'll call my AC friend and see if he can hook me up with the labor


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

ryanxo said:


> I've been searching for air handlers and checking prices. I think at this point I am just going to replace the whole thing for a more efficient one. It's from the 90s so I'm ok with that. I'll call my AC friend and see if he can hook me up with the labor


Have you looked here yet? Alpine Home Air Products: Contractor-grade furnaces, heaters, air conditioners


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Nope sure had not. So I figured since I'm on here and my equipment is listed in the thread I'd go ahead and ask. Should I just replace the air handler or replace the whole system for a newer one?

If I'm correct then if i just replace the air handler I don't need to re-run the copper lines going to the outdoor unit so the labor would be much less and I don't get a new outdoor unit so save cost there butttt it wouldn't be as efficient as the newer systems. 

I just don't know if that increase in efficiency warrants replacing the whole thing. 

I guess I could just get the new air handler now and if the outdoor unit craps out in the future then replace that one for a higher SEER. Outdoor unit isn't that old though... 5 years i think.


----------



## Kempryan (Jun 23, 2012)

*Air handler not moving any air after AC unit is on for a few hours*

So I thought I'd start with this thread, after reading all 8 pages and you guys seem to know your stuff.

My air handler after about 2-3 hours or so will stop moving any air through the vents in my house. The AC unit outside is on and seems to be functioning properly, but the cold air never reaches my house with any force. I don't think it's the AC because the vents all feel cold and are moving just a little bit of air but nothing with significance. When I look into the air handler it is spinning but I am unsure if it is at full speed or not. I also went under the house yesterday and all the ducts are in tact so that's not it. I changed the air filters yesterday after finding out that this may be the problem and all was well this morning with a running unit that moved air again, but now it is back to slow/no air out of my vents after just a few hours. I suspect the air mover motor is overheating for some reason and then getting sluggish but am not sure 1) if I am on the right train of thought and 2) how I would test this? I do have a meter voltmeter.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Kempryan (Jun 23, 2012)

Also the model # for furnace system is GPD075-3 REV B made by goodman manufacturing if that helps.


----------



## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Check for any diagnostic light.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CJMBEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hvacpartsshop.com%2FGmph075-4%2520Series.Pdf&ei=7ezlT_XhO4Ot2QXjrNDZCQ&usg=AFQjCNEYhGvpuppQxE9x31LJ8T5P-6S32A&sig2=WoqeV9GV6MJrvxSQopk1qw


----------



## Kempryan (Jun 23, 2012)

JJboy said:


> Check for any diagnostic light.


It is on and constant red which according to the label on the inside of the unit means it is functioning properly. But I still have no significant air to the vents. I am wondering if the light is not working as well.


----------



## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Check for these:

1 -Is the A-coil getting frozen after 2-3 hours? 
2- The controller board can be weak making the blower motor stop or slow the speed. 
3 -The blower motor is getting hot and stop running.


----------



## Kempryan (Jun 23, 2012)

JJboy said:


> Check for these:
> 
> 1 -Is the A-coil getting frozen after 2-3 hours?
> 2- The controller board can be weak making the blower motor stop or slow the speed.
> 3 -The blower motor is getting hot and stop running.


How can I check for 1 and 2? I don't think it's 3 because the motor it at least turning the blower but I am wondering if it has reduced power (capacitor?)


----------



## JJboy (Oct 12, 2010)

Kempryan said:


> How can I check for 1 and 2? I don't think it's 3 because the motor it at least turning the blower but I am wondering if it has reduced power (capacitor?)


When you don't feel the air at the supply register go outside and see if the line set is frozen.

Test the blower motor with multimeter in the continuity scale.

ex: Capacitor 10MFD 5%.....It's good capacitor 9.5MFD - 10.5MFD


----------



## ryanxo (Jun 7, 2011)

Just wanted to come back and post the fix for the issue. My air handler was set on the wrong speed. For most units A is high speed... well for mine C is high speed. My AC is now blowing a ton of air. The only issue still remains is that the air is 70 degrees coming out of my supply while 75 going in the return. FML


----------



## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

A 15 to 20 degree difference is normal....have the referigerant charge checked.


----------

