# Digging Hole for Pond in Backyard



## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

I hope this is the right place to post this thread. I have a backyard that is about 18'x20'. I am looking to add a 7'x4' pond for goldfish or koi. The pond will be 2' deep across for roughly 40% of the bottom surface and 3' deep for the other 60% to allow the fish to winter over in Chicago. The pond will be more or less in the center of the yard. The pond will be lined with a pond liner. I figure I need to remove about three yards of soil. Still figuring out what to do with it. 

There are no utility lines in the back yard. I know where the electrical feed is to the detached garage. I do not have any drainage issues. I have checked for permitting or code issues; there are none for the size and location. I have six foot fencing surrounding my backyard. It is locked at all times. Checked with homeowners insurance and there are no issues except that I may want to increase my liability. 

1) Is there anything I need to consider before digging? 
2) Is the best approach to digging the hole simply to start digging? It will be next to impossible to get an machinery into my yard due to the size and fence. 
3) About how long should it take to dig the hole assuming its me and my wife?

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Regardless of how certain you are about the utilities, you absolutely need to call Dig Safe before you begin digging, they will mark out utilities. Digging three cubic yards of soil is hard work, if the soil is rocky at all it can be brutal. Maybe you can get a small machine in there to help.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

You can have that dug before lunch time. 

I wouldn't dig before calling utility locate.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Could you just spread the soil that you excavate out over the rest of your front and back yards? It would certainly be the use way to get rid of it. Also, do you have a way to handle runoff from the pond when you get a big rainfall? Sometimes that can cause problems if not handled correctly.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

SeniorSitizen said:


> You can have that dug before lunch time.
> 
> I wouldn't dig before calling utility locate.


Thanks. Will call tomorrow.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

Msradell said:


> Could you just spread the soil that you excavate out over the rest of your front and back yards? It would certainly be the use way to get rid of it. Also, do you have a way to handle runoff from the pond when you get a big rainfall? Sometimes that can cause problems if not handled correctly.


I plan to create a slope with the excess water sloped toward the side of yard and toward the alley. 

I have new sod (last year) across front and back. Really don't want to lay soil on top of it. Can spread some on side of house but not much. May ask neighbors if they need any.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I would hate to do it now at age 65 but in 1995 I hand dug our pond. To CYA do call the utility locate.

In recent years and even back then I have found that a small Mantis tiller does a great job of digging while leaving an undisturbed bottom layer.

You will need some of that dirt to level the low side of the pond and as mentioned the rest can be spread over the rest yard with minimal impact. Chance are good you will tromp to death any grass growing near the site.

The amount of time is going to depend on the soil quality. It's better to work four hours for 3 days then 8 hours one and 3 days in the bed.

You need a spade, round point and flat nose shovel and maybe a digging bar. An axe or mattock if you hit roots or stones. 

If it is decent dirt I'm sure you can get rid of the excess with a free topsoil ad on Craigslist. People from there have hauled away tons of dirt, rock, brick, and stump grindings for me over the years.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

drelldrell said:


> I
> 
> *3) About how long should it take to dig the hole assuming its me and my wife?*
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.


Depends a little on digging conditions and what kind of shape you are in....


From my experience....I would estimate maybe 2 to 3 days doing it yourself.... 2 to 3 weeks with your wife's help.

Best


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

If you have a gate you can get a mini excavator in there. No way would I dig it by hand but I hate digging in the dirt unless I'm running a machine.


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## TheBobmanNH (Oct 23, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> From my experience....I would estimate maybe 2 to 3 days doing it yourself.... 2 to 3 weeks with your wife's help.


Now that's funny right there.



I drive by signs all the time advertising "fill wanted." If you really don't want to spread out the dirt just put a sign saying "free dirt / free fill" or something. Someone will haul it off.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Are you sure 3' deep is enough for the fish to overwinter in Chicago? A bunch of dead fish stink bad in the spring.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

jogr said:


> Are you sure 3' deep is enough for the fish to overwinter in Chicago? A bunch of dead fish stink bad in the spring.



Maybe not. http://www.mpks.org/faq/ans269.shtml

It would be here but maybe not there.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

A what point in depth does it become a swimming hole rather than a koi hole and codes need to be adhered to. I'm sure codes will be involved at some point.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

SeniorSitizen said:


> A what point in depth does it become a swimming hole rather than a koi hole and codes need to be adhered to. I'm sure codes will be involved at some point.



I'm sure that varies by area. Around here anything over 2 feet deep needs to provide the same safety features as an in ground pool.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

You said you are going to slope towards an alley. Why don't you pull a section of fence and bring in an excavator from the alley ?


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

3-4' is good for Chicago. Apparently there are a number of ponds in Chicago at 2' and the fish survive. I'm not chancing it at less than 3'. 

My garage is on the alley with only about a 6' span for fence with the gate. Land locked in two sides, and from the front is a no go. That's Chicago house density for you. 

This will be a manual labor effort. 

No permit needed. 

Utility locator may have come out this afternoon (at work now), but promised by Wednesday. 

Thanks for all the advice.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

Also with my fencing and secured access, I have the protections for a pool. Along with a dog that looks scary as hell!


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Do not say that there are no utility lines in the back. You would be amazed how many people have started digging, and come across a Com Ed buried trunk line in their yard.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

gregzoll said:


> Do not say that there are no utility lines in the back. You would be amazed how many people have started digging, and come across a Com Ed buried trunk line in their yard.


DIGGER, the local utility checking entity, came our today and marked water, gas, electricity, and AT&T/Cable. I am clear to dig. 

As a side note, this process was a bit confusing because the locator stuck an orange flag in the backyard that said "AT&T/D distribution buried cable" along with an orange marking in the grass that at first appeared to be a circle with an arrow. I panicked when I saw a flag stating buried cable. I then confirmed with the locator that the orange marking in the grass spelled "OK". So, I am OK to did.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Here is a great link for you..?

Look at several of them and let us know what you think.?

http://www.familyhandyman.com/search/index?search=pond


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Sounds as if you guys are good to go. Start digging and if she breaks her shovel handle, remember, it could have been on purpose. Hand her yours while you go buy her another.:laughing:

We love pond pictures.:yes:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Even those that have called before they dig does not find all utilities. The owner ends up finding hidden lines, that even the utilities forgot, or were never updated in the computer or on Blue Prints.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

ron45 said:


> Here is a great link for you..?
> 
> Look at several of them and let us know what you think.?
> 
> http://www.familyhandyman.com/search/index?search=pond


Thanks for the link.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

SeniorSitizen said:


> Sounds as if you guys are good to go. Start digging and if she breaks her shovel handle, remember, it could have been on purpose. Hand her yours while you go buy her another.:laughing:
> 
> We love pond pictures.:yes:


Haha. I have four in the garage! Pics will be posted as I get started.


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## iminaquagmire (Jul 10, 2010)

Clean fill dirt is like gold around here. You will have no issues getting rid of it. I don't know if you have raccoons but be wary of them. A friend lost all of his koi in one year. He also had a 6' privacy fence.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

drelldrell said:


> My garage is on the alley with only about a 6' span for fence with the gate. Land locked in two sides, and from the front is a no go. That's Chicago house density for you.
> 
> .



I took your initial post at face value and did not preach 'excavator' but you do know there are rental units that are only 39" wide?

The bottom foot would still need to be hand work to leave undisturbed soil.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

Colbyt said:


> I took your initial post at face value and did not preach 'excavator' but you do know there are rental units that are only 39" wide?
> 
> The bottom foot would still need to be hand work to leave undisturbed soil.


I was not aware of that. Going to call a rental place today.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

drelldrell said:


> Is the best approach to digging the hole simply to start digging?


The key easy digging in hard soil is to have some sort of digging bar or pick. Use the bar to break up the soil and then a shovel to remove it. http://www.harborfreight.com/17-lb-digging-bar-with-tamper-93612.html

Personally, I wouldn't even consider hiring or renting an excavator for something that small. It would be a lot cheaper and have much less impact on the surrounding area to hire someone to dig it for you if you don't feel up to the task.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> The key easy digging in hard soil is to have some sort of digging bar or pick. Use the bar to break up the soil and then a shovel to remove it. http://www.harborfreight.com/17-lb-digging-bar-with-tamper-93612.html
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't even consider hiring or renting an excavator for something that small. It would be a lot cheaper and have much less impact on the surrounding area to hire someone to dig it for you if you don't feel up to the task.


Day Labor in the HD parking lot....?????


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## High Gear (Nov 30, 2009)

4x7 isn't even the imprint of a sheet of plywood. 
Easy peasy with a shovel providing you don't hit a lot of rock .
In that case a pick will save the day there.
Don't forget to sharpen your shovel ( and keep it sharp) 
...makes a world of difference.
If its hard clay and dry , water it the night before.
Let us know if you find Jimmy Hoffa.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

High Gear said:


> 4x7 isn't even the imprint of a sheet of plywood.
> Easy peasy with a shovel providing you don't hit a lot of rock .
> In that case a pick will save the day there.
> Don't forget to sharpen your shovel ( and keep it sharp)
> ...


Nothing pleases a handyman more than a stripper that paints too slow. 

FIFY


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

drelldrell said:


> I was not aware of that. Going to call a rental place today.



Here is a picture of one. Claims to be able to dig 7' deep, went through a walkway gate. Dug a footer for a retain wall in only a few hours.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

That seems like cheating.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

With all the safety concerns I can't believe that top heavy tinker toy can be rented without a roll cage. Better keep that little feller on dead level ground.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

A suggestion about wintering over your fish----

3 feet is fine for Chicago winters, if you set up a temporary green house cover in the winter.
Your water pump should also be rerouted so it splashes a hole in the center of the pond---if the pond ices over the trapped gasses will sour the water and kill the fish.

There is an active Koi Sociaty that meets in Broadview,I believe--might be worth attending a meeting or two.--Mike---


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

SeniorSitizen said:


> With all the safety concerns I can't believe that top heavy tinker toy can be rented without a roll cage. Better keep that little feller on dead level ground.



That picture is from 2001. The current rental models do have a roll cage and seat belt.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

SeniorSitizen said:


> With all the safety concerns I can't believe that top heavy tinker toy can be rented without a roll cage. Better keep that little feller on dead level ground.


With the tracks extended they are pretty stable, when they are sucked in they can get tippy with a good load of dirt in the bucket.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

Ended up digging the hole by hand. Hit some thick clay about 2' down. Did not have any issues with rocks. The upper side of the pond is 6" wide and the lower end is 7' wide; the length of the pond is 8.5' (all approximates). 

The deepest section in the upper right corner (when facing the waterfall) is 40" deep. There is a section that is 24" deep on the right lower section. Finally, there is a shelf along the left side that ranges from 14" to 18". Along the left side there is a 3" by 4" ledge that allowed us to add rocks along the edge to hide the pond liner. The same was done on the right side but not shown in the pic below. 

As we started digging, we got a little creative with size and shape - yet still within the planned shape/dimensions. 

All done now except for minor tweaks and figuring out how to reconfigure electrical. Ton of work. But nice sense of accomplishment. Overall, we saved a at least 50% by doing this now our own. This is based on a local independent pond digger/designer who quoted me prices. Compared to the few local pond companies cost, I likely save 80%. Great DIY project. 

See pics attached.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

oh'mike said:


> A suggestion about wintering over your fish----
> 
> 3 feet is fine for Chicago winters, if you set up a temporary green house cover in the winter.
> Your water pump should also be rerouted so it splashes a hole in the center of the pond---if the pond ices over the trapped gasses will sour the water and kill the fish.
> ...


I just noticed this post. Missed if before. Fortunately, I have a 3' by 4' (roughly) section that is 40" deep. I will look into the Koi Society. 

Can you provide details on a greenhouse over the pond in the winter? I have thought about this idea in the past. Worried about snow load.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

That looks very nice drelldrell....Well done.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Looks great. Did you find enough clay or did you have to put in a liner? 

For winter, I use a bubbler and a heated ring. All you need is an air hole to allow gas exchange. 

Good suggestion about finding a local group for the do's and don'ts for your area. Don't forget about the place you get your koi. Mine is extremely helpful.


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## drelldrell (May 12, 2014)

47_47 said:


> Looks great. Did you find enough clay or did you have to put in a liner?
> 
> For winter, I use a bubbler and a heated ring. All you need is an air hole to allow gas exchange.
> 
> Good suggestion about finding a local group for the do's and don'ts for your area. Don't forget about the place you get your koi. Mine is extremely helpful.


Not enough clay at all. Didn't hit clay until about 2' down. Used a 40 mil EPDM liner. I wrapped about 2' over the sides, more near waterfall, to create a berm that can take up to 3" of rain. And in the last week we had two 3" rain events. Fortunately, no runoff made it to the pond and the pond did not overflow since I removed water between the rain events. Will add a planned overflow somehow, but not too worried because if we get more than 3" in a short timeframe I don't think any practical overflow will help and I will have bigger worries than the pond!

On a side note - can you let me know what type of heated ring you use?


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

I'll have to look at what is the make.

I drilled a hole for a 4" pipe in my skimmer and lead it to a dry well. You could probably use 3/4" pipe for your 500 gallon pond.

Instead of a green house, for the winter, look into getting a netted cover for the fall to keep leaves out. Decomposing leaves will increase the nitrogen and promote algae.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

There is a greenhouse supply company in Rolling Meadows--I don't know the name,sorry.

There he bought some steel hoops (Closh(sp) frames--)(no spell check on this computer)
He drove mating pipes into the ground---slipped on the hoops---made a wood frame with a storm door for one end--and covered it with clear plastic----

The solar gain was enough to keep the ice manageable--we did place a propane corn boiler stove in there a couple of times when we had a long spell of sub-zero days--


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

I use this.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=5163+7660+15048&pcatid=15048


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

QUOTE=drelldrell;2184666] 
On a side note - can you let me know what type of heated ring you use?[/QUOTE]


*Very nice job!*

A 6" plastic ball works for free and well until it gets really cold.

Since I'm sure it does in your area. I use this when I absolutely have to http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/farm-innovators-premium-floating-stock-tank-deicer-1250-watt and no exposed elements. Fortunately I never have to use for more than a few days at a time. There may be less consumptive options.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Temperature / location plays a big part. All you need is to keep an air hole open. As Colby stated the ball method works for him, I tried it and doesn't work effectively for me.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

You may need to put in a liner or a waterproof bottom to keep from losing the water into the ground and having to replenish (metered) from the tap.


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