# Insulation on no attic roof.



## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Long story short, I had to rip out some ceiling due to a leak. Now, I will need to put up a new one. I like the beadboard look and thought about leaving the wood look. The problem is, it had fiberglass insulation before, but, I found some mice had been making a nest in behind parts of my drywall in the insulation. A lot of this insulation was either mold, damp, mice damaged. I have an attic in the other rooms... but, not this one. Should I go with different insulation because of these issues? I live in Michigan and this room skylights. Photos of damage.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Does this roof have venting at the eaves and top ends? Do you need a new roof now?


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

The roofers finished a week ago. They put vents in all over. Here's the vents, and then, there's the original baffles I'm not sure about needing more or if its bad for roll out insulation that may block the baffles. It is a dark day so, I had to lighten the photos.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

The room from the inside and where the leak was that I was told to bleach.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

It looks like you should have more low venting but need more information to advise properly. Having no attic implies the insulation is installed between the rafters which would need to be 14" or so deep to provide the required insulation level for Michigan allowing ventilation space above.

Pictures of whatever you can see from the attic space above might help.

Bud
I see you added pictures while I was posting, I will review them.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Will baffles help because I don't have lower vents? There's no attic on that room. It's kind of a sunroom or 4 season's room.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I see that roof joins the main house but you are saying it does not connect to the main attic??

Bud


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Yes it does not. It was an add on and has new skylights in


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You have a wall above the house wall, go in the attic and cut thru the sheeting to gain access to that area and that will give you high end venting to the house attic.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

The living room which is attached to the attic. Then what we call the sunroom on the other side. The living room was previously a garage turned into a living room and a sunroom add on (before we bought the house) the tarp is dividing the sections because its freezing with no insulation.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

More of the lower ceiling so you can see


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

shawnawrites said:


> The living room which is attached to the attic. Then what we call the sunroom on the other side. The living room was previously a garage turned into a living room and a sunroom add on (before we bought the house) the tarp is dividing the sections because its freezing with no insulation.


So does the living room have an attic or is the ceiling the same slope as the sun room or the slope of the original roof?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Had to run into town.
What I'm seeing is that ventilation was not installed when that was built. Very likely the moisture issue you had (have) was due to that lack of ventilation, ie condensation. The stains I see on the bottom of the roof are where I would expect the condensation to collect.

Whether that is a correct assumption or not, clearly ventilation needs to be established before this is closed up. If there is no common space above those rafters then each one needs a low and high vent. I see 4 roof vents on this room (two pairs) but they are positioned one above the other which if there is no common space above they are only venting those two rafter bays. 

Sorry if I sound lost, but I am. I need to understand how that room connects to the main house, basically the question Neal asked. If there is a cavity created by those rafters where they go above the main roof that may be the common attic space we need.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Had to run into town.
> What I'm seeing is that ventilation was not installed when that was built. Very likely the moisture issue you had (have) was due to that lack of ventilation, ie condensation. The stains I see on the bottom of the roof are where I would expect the condensation to collect.
> 
> Whether that is a correct assumption or not, clearly ventilation needs to be established before this is closed up. If there is no common space above those rafters then each one needs a low and high vent. I see 4 roof vents on this room (two pairs) but they are positioned one above the other which if there is no common space above they are only venting those two rafter bays.
> ...


It looks like it has a common space, well hopefully it does, the big concern is the lower and around the skylights.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Agreed the skylight is an issue, but the high and low placement of the new vents is confusing me.
Also, the blue tarp must be a different room than the clear plastic, rafters set on a small cut where the clear plastic rafters go down below the double top plate.

Bud


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Someone please advise me where on the planet they build homes with 14" rafters...


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

If 14" is what codes require you take what you have and add what you need, common approach. The actual depth needed is based upon minimum required r-value and type of insulation being used.

For new construction some will go with web trusses and they come in a wide range of depths.


Where r-60 or more is required a vaulted ceiling might be a poor choice.


Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Agreed the skylight is an issue, but the high and low placement of the new vents is confusing me.
> Also, the blue tarp must be a different room than the clear plastic, rafters set on a small cut where the clear plastic rafters go down below the double top plate.
> 
> Bud


 You can see the gap over the lower wall


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Neal, I'm trying to locate that image and can't find where it was posted. I see the vent but don't see a top plate, actually the double top plate I'm looking for?

Bud


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Sorry, I was gone all day. Yes, I didn't realize how hodge podge things are in this house. I went into the attic after reading on here and realized the roof guy didn't attach my bathroom vent. Now for what I did learn...I was told there's no attic in that side (on that roof of the sunroom) well, I have a door that leads to the other side. I'll send the interesting photos. The first is a cold air return that wasn't attached. I can see into that on a ladder from the room in question. I couldn't understand what the wood wall with squares cut out was. So, I went through this door that was in the attic I use that leads to another. That's when I saw the old section of the house roof. I can't climb up on that old roof to get to the other side it's too high. The roof part shows those cut out squares though next is my new fan for the bathroom that is taped. I didn't get the unattached picture. Last is what I'm explaining that I can't get into. Its the old section/ side of the house... both sections (there's 3) are attached to the room I said has no attic on the one side but, has an attic on the other side.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

So, since there is a gap of attic in the wall... do I put baffles or something so I don't get moisture in the insulation I put in the ceiling of that room? I am trying to see which estimate person actually knew what is needed and if it's roll out insulation... that's doable but baffles or venting I want it done right. As you can see... this is like a rabbit hole in the alice in wonderland book. If I know it, i can fix it. If not and it's fixed wrong it'll begin another issue again. (That's what happened with the first roof guy who supposedly fixed the leak 3 years ago second roof guy just finished)


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

shawnawrites said:


> So, since there is a gap of attic in the wall... do I put baffles or something so I don't get moisture in the insulation I put in the ceiling of that room? I am trying to see which estimate person actually knew what is needed and if it's roll out insulation... that's doable but baffles or venting I want it done right. As you can see... this is like a rabbit hole in the alice in wonderland book. If I know it, i can fix it. If not and it's fixed wrong it'll begin another issue again. (That's what happened with the first roof guy who supposedly fixed the leak 3 years ago second roof guy just finished)


 That is a mess,
This hole cut thru the old roof near the top is what we would like to see when ever one roof covers another. So warm air can work it's way to the top of the attic an out the upper vents. The new vents they added above the sun room should look after the sun room even if that attic is not cut into.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You have a vented soffit, that needs to feed into each bay that we can't see from the pictures, there maybe a common space where on vent can feed more than one bay. . the air chutes want take air from the soffit all the way into the attic space above the living room.
Sky lights to be discussed separately.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> If 14" is what codes require you take what you have and add what you need, common approach. The actual depth needed is based upon minimum required r-value and type of insulation being used.
> 
> For new construction some will go with web trusses and they come in a wide range of depths.
> 
> ...



If I was in his situation, I would just put what would fit and get on with life...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> If I was in his situation, I would just put what would fit and get on with life...


That is what the last guy did, and here he is.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> That is what the last guy did, and here he is.



The insulation caused a roof leak?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

If you had read all of the posts you would understand the he has a major lack of ventilation which has been causing condensation which either was his water problem of in addition to a leak. I think it was his water problem, seen it before, but he isn't listening. 

Telling him to "I would just put what would fit and get on with life..." is not responsible or informed advice.

Bud


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> The insulation caused a roof leak?


 The lack of venting cause mold, the amount of insulation depends on where he lives and what he can live with. 

The leak as bad as that is alerted him to a bigger problem to a bigger problem, that needs to be discussed and understood so the OP can make an educated decision on what he should do.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> The lack of venting cause mold, the amount of insulation depends on where he lives and what he can live with.
> 
> The leak as bad as that is alerted him to a bigger problem to a bigger problem, that needs to be discussed and understood so the OP can make an educated decision on what he should do.





I understand that, but are we sure that the mold came from condensation or the leaky roof? I never understand how fiberglass insulation needs baffles because all I read on here is it is nothing but an air filter. Anyway, it looks more and more like a sizable check to a pro is all that is going to fix this. The best guess methods of a message board are not going to be appropriate in this case...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

APA said:


> I understand that, but are we sure that the mold came from condensation or the leaky roof? I never understand how fiberglass insulation needs baffles because all I read on here is it is nothing but an air filter. Anyway, it looks more and more like a sizable check to a pro is all that is going to fix this. The best guess methods of a message board are not going to be appropriate in this case...


 * I never understand how fiberglass insulation needs baffles*

Perhaps that is question you should have asked*. *In fact the baffles are there not for the insulation but the lack of insulation. In cold climates there is never enough insulation over the exterior wall, the heat from the wall will melt snow, which will refreeze just down slope and cause ice dams, that is solved by the air chutes moving warm air up to the attic. 

I warmer weather we want to cool the roof so the heat collected does not damage the roofing and we want to dissipate the heat so it doesn't radiate to the living space.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Let me try to get everyone on the same page.

1. Found wet carpet Dec '18
a. Traced water up wall and pulled drywall and insulation from side walls to edge of ceiling where they meet.
b. Found water dripping from top where wall meets ceiling.
c. Removed ceiling drywall and insulation and found streaming leaks in 3-5 places across the roof.
d. Found there to be storm damage present on top of roof. 
2. Signs of moisture present in places not near direct leaks.
a. No baffles at soffits, each one was stuffed tight with insulation and rafters were stuffed with 12" × 24" insulation.
b. Moisture staining darker near the 3 vents in sunroom roof.
3. Entire roof replaced
a. Stripped down to sheeting, new sheeting over 80% of roof
b. 13 total roof vents
c. Other soffits cleared out
d. 2 Velux FS M08 2004 skylights and install kits
e. Complete GAF Roofing System with 30/50 yr. Labor/Material warranty

Present Day...
1. I plan on adding baffles in each of the sections of the beams 
Q1. Do I bring the baffles from the soffits to the attic?
Q2. Do I stop the baffles at the vents on the sections that have a vent, or carry it straight up to the attic?
2. I plan on using all new insulation. 
Q3. Since I an replacing all drywall in this room should I use 5/8" ceiling and walls since both are outer-most walls?
Q4. If the insulation is the correct R-value, is there a type that's better, blown, foam, fiber, etc.?
3. There is common space in the attic where the sunroom roof leans into the original peak with the equivalent of 40 sq. ft. of openings where it meets the original house. 
Q5. When the beams are insulated again, should they be stuffed all the way to where it meets the attic?
Q6. If the baffles run all the way into the attic, do the use anything to keep bugs out?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

1. Just past the wall above the original wall into the common space.
2, you are just concerned with the vaulted ceiling
3. If the rafters are 24" on center you need 5/8, walls usually 1/2" but your choice. 

4. I would use a bat insulation that gave you the best bang for the buck you will have about 9 -9 1/2" of usable space. If that isn't enough you can put foam board above the drywall. Here is a chart you can find what you should have. 

http://dallasinsulationcompanytx.com/r-value.html

5. stuffed, no but placed all the way just over that wall, the back side of that wall should be insulated on the attic side. 



6. not usually and you have limited venting if you had more venting you could do a bug screen but over time that plugs up with dust and blocks the vent. 



We still need to figure the best way to vent above and below the sky lights.
I am going to look over you pictures. 

Ceiling light fixtures will need to be sealed against air getting past them.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

In this picture we can see that they notched the rafters which is a big no no. 

They need hangers and they are cheap and easy but they don't make a hanger for that so you have to cut the bottom level to take a regular hanger. That will not effect the drywall.

http://www.dhcsupplies.com/store/p/3524-U26-Standard-Joist-Hanger.html


The hangers get more important because i want you to drill hole3 right next to sheet just below and just above the skylight to allow air movement. Like 3 1 1/2" hole right next to the sheeting on both side just below and above the skylights and then when you do the chutes, doctor something up that will keep the space open for that air flow.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

Thanks for all the answers. I can add the rafter joints and drill out the holes for the skylights. By what you said its 4 holes total for each skylight, right?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

shawnawrites said:


> Thanks for all the answers. I can add the rafter joints and drill out the holes for the skylights. By what you said its 4 holes total for each skylight, right?



I have marked three of the four areas to drill the holes. I would do 3 in each area right next to the sheeting.


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## shawnawrites (Dec 4, 2018)

I finished the room and roof Thanks for all the help. Yes, it took a long time to finish.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Nice work!!


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