# GFCI Nightmare/Mystery



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Have a GFCI outlet hooked to a washing machine which blows intermittantly. It always blows when it has just finished filling and about to change to a wash/rinse cycle.

I have had 3 electricians out and have done the following:

1. Replaced the Washer.
2. Replaced the GFCI, three times.
3. Run new wires to panel.
4. Isolated the circuit with nothing before or after GFCI. Has straight run to panel/breaker.
5. Ran seperate ground from GFCI to ground side of water meter (6 ft) in case there was a bad ground through conduit/ground cable.

Is there any other possibility? Last electrician wanted to do all kinds of grounding work, at panel, etc. After putting direct ground to water pipe and still popping said, "I'll have to ask around."

Would appreciate your wisdom..


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## darren (Nov 25, 2005)

When you say it blows do you mean the breaker trips or the GFI.

It seems like you tried everything else, but my first try would have been to replace the GFI. You tried that 3 times with the same results.

My second attempt would have been to ditch the GFI all together and put on a regular plug. You could be getting nuisance tripping from the motor in the washing machine.

I know in Canada our washer plug does not have to be GFI protected it could be different in the USA, someone from down there will you let know.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

THanks. It's the GFI tripping.. If there is anything else I've missed on this I'd really like to know.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

darren said:


> My second attempt would have been to ditch the GFI all together and put on a regular plug. You could be getting nuisance tripping from the motor in the washing machine.


The washer machine receptacle does not have to be GFCI protected. I think Darren nailed it with the notion of the motor tripping the GFCI. It is known to happen with vacuums and other devices that have electric motors. 

If the washer machine is in the unfinished basement or the garage, install a dedicated single receptacle to be code-legal. A duplex receptacle would have to be GFCI protected in those areas. A dedicated receptacle does not.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> The washer machine receptacle does not have to be GFCI protected. I think Darren nailed it with the notion of the motor tripping the GFCI. It is known to happen with vacuums and other devices that have electric motors.


This is simply untrue.



thekctermite said:


> If the washer machine is in the unfinished basement or the garage, install a dedicated single receptacle to be code-legal. A duplex receptacle would have to be GFCI protected in those areas. A dedicated receptacle does not.



These exceptions vanish in the 2008, so get used to finding the real problem with GFCI's tripping.


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## JohnJ0906 (Mar 18, 2007)

Has a repairman checked the washer? That GFCI could be tripping for a reason.
How old is the washer?


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Washer is 2 yrs old. Replaced another one with same problems..

Initially replaced motor. Still tripping.

Replaced washer, still tripping.

tb


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## brother (Jul 5, 2008)

I know you had electricians out lookin at this, but has anyone made sure the washer cord was correctly wired?? I know this washer suppose to be new but i have seen where the manufacter had that 'ground and neutral' bonded together on a washer and this not right. Also have you checked to be sure that the drain pipe is not leaking anywhere near the gfci inside the wall?? that water can cause it trip but you probably would NOT see the water damage for a while. and as others have said, some motors on these washers can cause a gfci to trip as this sounds like the potential problem since it trips as soon as the wash/rinse cycle starts. 

Also the gfci should be checked to be sure its wired correctly. Since its a new install, and you had electricians do it, i believe it is. The 'hot' and 'neutral ' should be attached to the 'line side' of the gfci and the connections made good and tight!! loose connections can cause a gfci to trip. I had that happen in my house. 

Contrary to popular belief a gfci does NOT need a ground connected to the ground screw to work correctly. A gfci senses an imbalance between the hot and neutral of about 5 milliamps and this is what causes it to trip. You can google gfci's and see for yourself how they work. 

In fact, you can install a 3 hole gfci where a 2 hole receptacle was that had no ground and be legal under the 2005 NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b):thumbsup:
So your electricians pulling in new grounds and hookin them up to the ground rods etc.. doesnt sound like they know a whole lot about gfci's and how they work or the proper grounding of things. 

Lastly, it is VERY RARE this happens, but ive been told that 'certain' frequencys can cause a gfci to trip but only when its real close to it. Had a guy that said on a job that had a radio and was installing a new gfci breaker and whenever he was close to the breaker it would trip the gfci. Some how the frequencies in the radio when close enough cause the gfci to trip.  

Let us know how it turns out.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Appreiate your comments.

The ground wire was run to see if there was any issue with the ground going back to the panel, just in case or if the ground side of the conduit was weird, just trying to cover all the bases.

Illogical questions:

If it only trips when the washer tub is full but not otherwise and only intermittantly then why not all the time?

Also, this is in a laundry room of a small apt bldg. The wiring is run in conduit on the inside wall, not in the wall. I have never seen any water on the floor or seeping by the washer.

Here is a small thought: There is a cable box of some kind, might be an amplifier that is plugged in at the next outlet near along side the GFCI but NOT on the same outlet box or circuit. In fact it is in it's own GFCI and has never popped. The cable box itself is mounted 5 ft away. It is not a junction box but some kind of amplifier, might be for the internet but I don't know. It is not radio frequency as far as I can tell.

Thanks,

Tom


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

roztom said:


> Appreiate your comments.
> 
> The ground wire was run to see if there was any issue with the ground going back to the panel, just in case or if the ground side of the conduit was weird, just trying to cover all the bases.


Still, it has nothing to do with the operation of a GFCI. 




roztom said:


> illogical questions:
> 
> 
> If it only trips when the washer tub is full but not otherwise and only intermittantly then why not all the time?


Thats the problem, you have certain conditions that when met, trip the gfci, your going to just have to find a smarter person to fix your problem.

The problem is NOT the GFCI, its letting you know you do have a problem though... and I always love the just remove the GFCI logic, yeah, lets just forget the fact that we have a serious problem that interferes with our life. (Not directed to the OP)


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*What other variables are there?*

Based on this information, nothing else on the circuit until it gets to the box/breaker, all wires tight, no water anywhere and the conduit run on the inside, not in the wall and only popping after the tub has filled and only intermittantly - where would I look?

BTW: This washer is next to an old concrete tub and the drain hose from the washer dumps into it. I do not know if the GFCI trips at the first tub fill or after it drains and refills. I "suspect" it is both.

Also, since this drain tub is next to the washer, does humidity play any part in this - seems like a longshot and it also trips in the winter and summer. There are also boilers in thew laundry room so it is very warm and dry in the winter and still trips (FYI).

TNx,

Tom


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## brother (Jul 5, 2008)

well moisture/humidity can affect the gfci if it gets wet any kind of way. 

maybe i should not have said 'radio' frequency, im told any kind of frequency if its real close to the gfci can have some effect. 

But you never answered the other question, is the washer itself been check for proper wiring??? I know its new but it still needs to be checked since you claimed you eliminated the other possible problems. Also did any electrician see if there was a small leakage of current on the washer itself even if its wired correctly (ground and neutral seperated on the washer).?? they can use a megger to check things. remember it *only takes 5 milliamps to trip a gfci.* 

When that 'motor' kicks in (after the tub is full it starts agitating or pumping water out) its possible there is a sudden 'surge' in amps and there maybe just enough leakage on the washer that trips it.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I replaced the washer..can't imagine there would be leakage there. 

BTW, what would make it intermittant? IF there was leakage there, it would be there all the time wouldn't it? Also, since moisture/humidity might affect it, with the 2 boilers 6 ft from the washer running that laundry is warm and dry during the winter and it still blows... 

The GFCI doesn't pop on spin, etc. IT only pops when there is water in the tub probably when it is shifting cycles from fill to run... GRRR

Would anything other than ground leakage cause this? What would I need to test this with to see what is going on? 

Tom


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## brother (Jul 5, 2008)

roztom said:


> I replaced the washer..can't imagine there would be leakage there.
> 
> BTW, what would make it intermittant? IF there was leakage there, it would be there all the time wouldn't it? Also, since moisture/humidity might affect it, with the 2 boilers 6 ft from the washer running that laundry is warm and dry during the winter and it still blows...
> 
> ...


 
I thought i made it clear in my last post. You can use a 'megger' to check for the leakage. And as i said before , its possible that the leakage only gets high enuff when there is a sudden surge in the 'amp's when the motor is just starting, when its SHIFTING cycles like u said. You really need to let an electrician/ some experience in testing like this to do it. 

Also water in the tub CAN lower the resistance in the washer for there to be more leakage to trip the gfci. 

In fact, believe it or not, when they make new large wire and put it on a spool, they way they test it is cap one end and SUBMERGE it in water and test for leakage there from the megger. if it passes the WATER test, its good to go. 

I strongly sugges that there be some meggering done on the other 'line side' of the wiring as well.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

brother said:


> I thought i made it clear in my last post. You can use a 'megger' to check for the leakage. And as i said before , its possible that the leakage only gets high enuff when there is a sudden surge in the 'amp's when the motor is just starting, when its SHIFTING cycles like u said. You really need to let an electrician/ some experience in testing like this to do it.


I agree, you need someone who is good at troubleshooting, a megger will eliminate some of the guessing at what you think could be the problem.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Tom, Chris is correct. The GFCI tripping is a symptom of your problem. The ground or lack of it is not the problem. A GFCI measures the current on both conductors. If it detects a difference exceeding 5 milli-amps, the GFCI trips.

I assume the GFCI receptacle does not trip with nothing plugged into it? If that is true, then the problem is from the male plug on out to, and including the washing machine. Somewhere there is a leakage of current.

I hate to have to say this, but I think you may need a better electrician. One who actually knows how a GFCI works would be a huge plus. One who owns and knows how to use test instruments is a requirement.

If I had a washer which was tripping a GFCI, there is no way I would eliminate the GFCI and allow people to touch that machine. There is a problem. It can be found and eliminated.

I can't explain why two different washers would trip a GFCI. My washers have been on GFCI protected circuits for years without any problems or any tripping.


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## brother (Jul 5, 2008)

a good point that chris states, it doesnt trip when the washer is NOT plug into does it?? have you tried pluggin something else into the gfci to see if it trips??


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

roztom said:


> Appreiate your comments.
> 
> 
> Also, this is in a laundry room of a small apt bldg. The wiring is run in conduit on the inside wall, not in the wall. I have never seen any water on the floor or seeping by the washer.


Now this got me thinking for a minuite .,, how many apt unit is that place have and do each apt have it own meter{s} 

The reason why I ask real quick if this apt have two or more meters [ one for each apt and one for common area aka " house " metering ] some case the netural or bonding is not right.

Anyway did someone test the GFCI without the load on the receptale ? if it don't trip then get a voltmeter and read the voltage from H to G it should be normal 120 volt range and N to G should be zero and last thing get the electrician come out and ampclampped the main bonding wire at the water pipe if you are picking up stray current it can wreck hovac with GFCI { Heard few case like that }

Merci,Marc


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## JohnJ0906 (Mar 18, 2007)

That is a good point Marc.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*New Eletrician Next*

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and insights.

I will be getting a new electrican out this coming week and I will give you an update after. Hopefully I will get a real solution...

Tom


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Yes, do post the outcome. Many of us will be curious about the results.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*One Additional Note/ 3 GFCI's*

I apologize if this is material info:

I forgot to mention that I have 3 GFCI's (2 in a double outlet box and one single outlet) and no matter which one I plug the washer into it will trip. 

Does this make you guys lean in a different direction on this? Remember, the washer was changed out and was at a different location on a GFCI and didn't trip it.

Tnx,

Tom


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Tom; silly question; the original gfci that DID NOT trip was that a 20A? 
are the ones tripping now the same rating as the first? Yeah I know that is 2 questions LOL sorry:laughing:


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

skymaster said:


> Tom; silly question; the original gfci that DID NOT trip was that a 20A?
> are the ones tripping now the same rating as the first? Yeah I know that is 2 questions LOL sorry:laughing:



A gfi does not provide overcurrent protection, so the amperage of the GFCI is irrelevant...


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

so do other people have washers on gfcis and they don't trip? I've never put one on a gfci. Chris says its code now in 2008, but i haven't wired a house in over a year


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> so do other people have washers on gfcis and they don't trip? I've never put one on a gfci. Chris says its code now in 2008, but i haven't wired a house in over a year



I see more laundry units installed in bathrooms more than anything, and those also require GFIC protection...


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

The GFCI that did not trip was at a different location. So we switched washing machines and the replacement started popping the GFCI's at my place.

The washer (previous) would pop any of the GFCI's (3) I have at my location/laundryroom. The previous machine is NOT popping the GFCI at the other location where I got my replacement machine from.

SO.... assuming it is not the machine and all the GFCI's pop at my place after the washer fills. All the GFCI's are alone on their circuit and I have also direct wired one just to be sure and it still pops.

Knowing all this... What is it? Ground at panel? Can't be ground on washer. Can all GFCI's not be grounded properly thru the panel or are all my appliances not grounded properly thru their ground plug?

Where else can their be leakage?? Especially on ALL of them?

Thanks everyone for your patience.

Tom


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## micromind (Mar 9, 2008)

What sort of a washer is this? Just a basic household one? The reason I ask is because I'm getting the idea that the neutral might be bonded to the ground (frame of the washer) somehow. I just can't imagine how this would happen. 

It's a common practice to bond the neutral to the ground on an older 3-wire dryer, but I've never heard of it on a washer. 

The test is really simple, just check for continuity between the ground pin on the cord and either of the flat pins. It should be open. 

If this circuit is not far from the panel, I could easily see the GFI not tripping until the motor started. The fill valves, etc. are very low current, and not enough would go down the ground to trip it. When the motor started though, it would certainly cause more than 5 ma on the ground. then the GFI would trip.

Are the GFI's wired correctly? The incoming power must be on the line side. If it's on the load side, GFIs can behave strangely. They can also act up if the hot and neutral are reversed. Most new ones won't reset at all under these conditions. 

Rob

P.S. If this is one of those new-fangled variable speed machines, the electronics of the speed controller could wreak havoc with the electronics of the GFI. I've seen 120 volt VFD's trip GFIs with absolutely no current imbalance at all. Rare, but it does happen. 

Rob


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

> Knowing all this... What is it? Ground at panel? Can't be ground on washer. Can all GFCI's not be grounded properly thru the panel or are all my appliances not grounded properly thru their ground plug?


As others have pointed out, the ground or lack thereof does not affect the GFCI operation.

From what you have done so far, you have eliminated the washer and the GFCI receptacles as the source of the problem. What's left? Have you tried unplugging the amplifier thingy (technical jargon ) you mentioned in post #9 to see if it still trips? 

You say it trips only when the tub is full... that means the washer weighs more. Any chance something is getting pinched at that point?

Any pictures available of this room?


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

When you say "pinched" what does that mean?

Would a bad ground with somne leakage at the appliance plugs be a cause. Now I have a drier plugged into another GFI and it has never tripped. When I switch them and put the washer on the GFI it trips and only intermittently.

I'm trying to figure if there is a bad ground or should I say some leakage and the water fills the tub aND ADDS SOME MORE LEAKAGE IF THAT IS WHAT MIGHT BE DOING IT. Is it possible that the ground going back to the panel is not very good on that conduit or that the neutrals going back to the panel are not grounded well thru the panel. (If I got it wrong don't shoot me). 

I assume a simple continuity test is not enough since it shows a ground but it might have some resistance in it...

Tom


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

jimmy21 said:


> so do other people have washers on gfcis and they don't trip? I've never put one on a gfci. Chris says its code now in 2008, but i haven't wired a house in over a year


Mine is on a GFCI and has been through 2 washers. I have never had a trip. And I have installed many in bathrooms and a few in garages on GFCI circuits, without any problems. In the 2008, all the exceptions go away, so ALL 120v receptacle outlets in garages and unfinished basements, etc are required to be GFCI protected.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*Recommended Troubleshooting Sequence*

Thanks everyone:

Based on what you all know, I'd appreciate your troubleshooting sequence to diagnose this issue. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

A "mugger" was mentioned, when and would you still recommend it?

I am going to speak to another electrician today and I want to be as specific as I can so he just doesn't come out and do the basic stuff like the others have and find nothing.

Tnx,

Tom


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

roztom said:


> Thanks everyone:
> 
> Based on what you all know, I'd appreciate your troubleshooting sequence to diagnose this issue. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
> 
> ...


A Megger will test for a bad cord or leaky conductors. Have him bring along a new GFCI receptacle outlet just for the heck of it. I have seen 3 packs of Chinese GFCI's in the big box stores and would not be surprised to find 3 bad units in one box.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*Foundation & Standing Water Variable*

While I might be grasping at straws here there is one poosible variable except I have not thought of this and also do not have any documentation if this condition is related to the tripping.

When there is heavy rains the water will puddle outside my foundation against the back wall where these GFCI's are located. 

The laundry room is half-grade down, like a Garden apt,, so the standing water is probably 3 ft below where the outlets are mounted. Remember the outlets are mounted in conduit on the inside of the wall (not in the wall) and their is no seepage through the wall that I have ever seen. The closest I can imagine is that there is a large puddle against the outside foundation of the building a few feet away from the GFCI's with a brick foundation seperating them.

Would this be enough to cause this GFI behavior?

TNx,

Tom


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*Humidity and GFCI*

While it was mentioned before, it did not seem relevant until I thought more about any varibales that would cause intermittant behavior.

Here is a link to a report I found by UL that discusses humidity as a variable for "defective" GFI's.

I am beginning to suspect this might be the cause for the intermittent behavior.. I am going to have another electrician look into it this afternoon. We are supposed to have storms here in the CHicago area this afternoon so I am going to see if I can put the washer under load with a heavy carpet in it and see if I can get it to pop. (WHat are the odds I'll be able to get it to pop?? :furious

Link to report: http://www.cpsc.gov/volstd/gfci/analysisgfci.pdf

If it is the humidity then there is no real solution as far as I can tell. Any realistic suggestions instead of sealing/waterproofing the conduit ?

I'll let you know.

Tom


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*4th Electrician Came Out/Verdict*

Here it is:

THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!!

I know you are going to say there is definitely something wrong, otherwise the GFCI's, all three of them wouldn't be intermittently tripping when the washer was plugged into any one of them.

Here is what they did:

1. Verified each GFCI was on an individual circuit.
2. Tested each GFCI for proper operation.
3. Verified all wiring on each GFCI.
4. Tested washer for ground & any leakage/voltage.
5. Ran washer under load and tested voltage draw on each GFCI.
6. Tested grounds and tightened all grounds at panel and inbetween.

In the end they said that the newer GFCI's were very sensitive to nusience tripping and that possibly electronics in the washer were causing it to pop. 

I asked about a high humidity level and they said that should not be a factor and there is no water or seepage in the room. BTW, it was very humid in the laundry room when we tested it had rained overnight - no issue.

SO what to do? After 4 electricians, switching out washing machines, changing all GFCI's 3X, etc. I have to conclude that this is NOT solvable.

While I'm sure some of you will say there MUST be a reason, as would I, I am convinced, at this point, that the installation is safe. 

This problem has cost me a substntial amt of $ with no resolution. SO you know the $ are not number one, safety is. I am comfortable that this is safe and that the popping, being intermittent, and verified by the electrician does not pose any danger to the tenants based on the steps that have been taken.

While I'm sure more testing could be done and maybe a reason might be found at some point, this would not in any material way affect the safe operation of a washer.

I hope this information will be helful to anyone who has a problem like this. Logic says this should not be happening. 4 electricians say it shouldn't either.

Thanks,

Tom


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

roztom said:


> Also, this is in a laundry room of a small apt bldg.


Not an electrical solution, but were you in the laundry room when the gfci tripped? Is it possible that another tenant is tripping your gfci?


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I assume you are asking if the tripping is malicious. I don't believe so.

IT has been going on intermittantly for over a year, maybe 2 and my tenants are all professional non-lunatic types and I have also turned all my tenants over so.... I beleve it is just a thing that happens. 

I have also discovered the GFCI popped during a load but have never seen it pop while observing it in realtime...

I suspect this will just stand the way it is.

Tom


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

roztom said:


> Here it is:
> 
> THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!!
> 
> ...


And it shouldn't, but what are you going to do? And who did these tests? and why does everyone insist on tightening the grounds?  Did they use a megger? are they qualified testers?


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

Try replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker, and run this to one dedicated outlet.
It is possible that the GFCI breaker will be less susceptible to motor spikes.

BTW, if GFCI are required for washing machine in 2008, is there a Grandfather clause that will allow my washer to remain on a non-GFCI receptacle?

FW


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

fw2007 said:


> BTW, if GFCI are required for washing machine in 2008, is there a Grandfather clause that will allow my washer to remain on a non-GFCI receptacle?
> 
> FW



New codes are not retroactive. And washing machines are not required to have GFCI protection in 2008.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

fw2007 said:


> Try replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker, and run this to one dedicated outlet. It is possible that the GFCI breaker will be less susceptible to motor spikes.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but what is the rationale here? I don't want to get hot about this but motors DO NOT cause GFCI's to trip. Inrush currents do not matter. Spikes? Hogwash. Phase angles? Sorry. Unless the motor's insulation is breaking down (and a leakage can be intermittent and triggered by heat and/or vibration), motors do not mysteriously eat, steal, hide or leak current. As long as |I(in)-I(out)|<5mA, there is no trip. 



fw2007 said:


> BTW, if GFCI are required for washing machine in 2008, is there a Grandfather clause that will allow my washer to remain on a non-GFCI receptacle?


 If the installation exists prior to the adoption of the new code, then what you have now is acceptable "as-is."


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

BigJimmy said:


> I don't mean to be argumentative, but what is the rationale here? I don't want to get hot about this but motors DO NOT cause GFCI's to trip. Inrush currents do not matter. Spikes? Hogwash. Phase angles? Sorry. Unless the motor's insulation is breaking down (and a leakage can be intermittent and triggered by heat and/or vibration), motors do not mysteriously eat, steal, hide or leak current. As long as |I(in)-I(out)|<5mA, there is no trip.



Thank god, someone else that understands how a GFCI works... :thumbsup:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

210.8 only states that a GFCI is needed in the Laundry room, not for the Washer. This would mean that the circuit for the Washer needs to be a dedicated outlet, and because of the fact that the motor would cause nuisance tripping, you do not want to use a GFCI. Same for a Freezer or Refrigerator, or even Garage Door Opener.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> 210.8 only states that a GFCI is needed in the Laundry room, not for the Washer.


What? Actually the only receptacle needing GFCI protection in a laundry type room would be one within 6' of a sink. So, if the washer is installed within 6' of the sink guess what, GFCI protection is now required. 



gregzoll said:


> This would mean that the circuit for the Washer needs to be a dedicated outlet, and because of the fact that the motor would cause nuisance tripping, you do not want to use a GFCI. Same for a Freezer or Refrigerator, or even Garage Door Opener.


THis is just sooooooooooooooooo untrue.


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## mstar (Jul 9, 2008)

*same problem*

I recently started having the same problem.
A Kenmore Series 70 washer (older model) that was working fine on 20 amp. GFI just started to trip the GFI.
Tried it on other GFI outlets and it will trip them when the motor tries to turn on.

Plugged into a non GFI and all cycles will run fine and there is no warmth in the plug or outlet. Touching the machine I did not feel a shock.

As I said, this has been running without trippig for two years and have tried this on other GFI using an 3 prong extension to two other GFI outlets which it will trip. 

Could the motor start capacitor be the issue? That is, if the capacitor was failing could the motor be trying to draw more power than the GFI breaker likes?


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

chris75 said:


> THis is just sooooooooooooooooo untrue.


Some of the original post was lost in this quote but for god sakes, why do people keep saying that motors do not work with GFCI's?? Ok, let's take a typical MV power distribution example. A 1000A feeder breaker is protected by phase overcurrent relays, i.e. three 51's, and a 51G relay. The three phase conductors pass through a GF CT which measures residual ground fault current, exactly the same as in that little GFCI breaker or recept (I'm not kidding, it's the same magnetic flux principle, kids). So every time one of my buildings kicks on a 50HP chiller motor, my feeder should trip??

As I said previously, a properly working (and JRClen mentioned that there are a lot of junk GFCI's out there) GFCI should only trip on 5mA or greater _leakage_ current. That means that current is leaving the normal power delivery circuit (i.e. hot and neutral in _any_ single phase circuit, I don't care if it's residential, commercial, industrial or whathaveyou) which represents a ground fault. This is not normal. Motors are not designed to nor under normal circumstances do they drain current to ground. I don't care if they are three phase or single phase. I've got motors in my house operating under GF protected breakers with no issue. I would have never thought that this would have been a problem either. Understand the technology completely before you make false claims. I just don't get it.

And reading through this thread, any electrician that would have thought that tightening the ground screws in the panel would have made a difference was, in my opinion, at a loss but trying to justify to the HO that he somehow deserved something for the call. I would love to ask this electrician about GFCI's feeding receptacles with no EGC's.

Sorry to be flamey if I come across that way but c'mon.

Jimmy


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

gregzoll said:


> and because of the fact that the motor would cause nuisance tripping, you do not want to use a GFCI. Same for a Freezer or Refrigerator, or even Garage Door Opener.


Wrongo. I don't care what the motor is powering, compressor, fan, door opener or that laser cutter that almost killed bond in the Goldfinger movie. GFCI's don't have an issue with a normal, insulated motor. My garage door opener is on a GFCI breaker circuit and has been working just fine for many years. And yes, I check the breaker regularly. Maybe it's a midwest thing <shaking head guy>


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Big Jimmy: Will you contact me by PM. I live in the same town.

I am going to "tiptoe" in with a final comment. The guys I had in were not grunts.. they know their stuff. They did everything (except the megger). We could not get it to trip. THey watched the voltage while operating the washer..we put the washer under load and couldn't get it near to popping the GFCI. WE tested the washer (a replacement) and there was no leakage on it.

The grounds were just because...why not look to see if everything is right? We ended up putting the washer alone on a dedicated circuit as mentioned in this thread. 

I welcome any qualified, licensed person in the Chicago area, who has the test equipt to contact me directly by PM to take this issue on. 

THanks again to all of you for your interest and participation in this thread.

Tom


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

Myths and mysteries about GFCI's.
First off, I have experienced GFCI tripping due to power fluctuations on a number of occasions. Once was during a lightning storm, when I admit, we may have disproportionate currents flowing between hot and neutral. The other experience was during a time when the power utility was experiencing problems. The voltage would occasionally spike up or down, causing a flickering in lights. The breaker tripped three times before I contacted the utility. Since they did not have any record of trouble in the area, the linesman replaced the butt splices on our service, but that did not help at all. The problem eventually resolved on it's own, when the faulty switch or whatever was causing the problem at the substation was corrected.

Radio frequency can also induce currents between either hot or neutral and earth, causing the GFCI to trip. I am an amateur radio operator, and have also experienced this condition when my transmitter output power was only 100W.
As I recall, the problem was corrected when I fixed a bad coax, which was causing a high VSWR on the antenna line. 

My thinking on replacing the GFCI receptacle with a GFCI breaker is that if the washer motor or other component is causing the problem, that a breaker, located further away from the cause will receive an attenuated signal. 
While your standard 12/2 cable presents a very low resistance to 60HZ or DC currents, it represents a higher resistance to RF and high frequency "noise" signals.

There is the possibility that due to the nature of construction for washers, there is some capacitive coupling between the motor or other component and earth ground.
A high start current could cause some momentary leakage to earth, which would cause an imbalance in current between hot and neutral, tripping the GFCI.

To make matters much simpler, why not follow advice given here and ditch the GFCI for the washer, install the dedicated line. I have never used a GFCI for a heavy appliance like a washer, and do not feel that they are appropriate for such devices, whether or not code says you need them.

That said, be absolutely sure that your washer is properly grounded. I think someone suggested using a "megger" (I use a multimeter, but I admit they cannot read very low resistances very well) to check ground continuity.

I have to admit that some of my thinking can be a bit "odd" at times, but I have a history of finding solutions for difficult problems by thinking "out of the box".

FW


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

Sorry for the drawn-out explanation above. Since I cannot edit my previous post, let me clarify:

Often, spikes that occur on the power line from equipment or power company switching do not produce equal currents on both hot and neutral. In the case of the washer, it is quite possible that a portion of the energy from the motor start spike is being conducted capacitively to earth, which will cause the GFCI to trip since currents in the hot and neutral will not be equal.

A few months ago, I had a GFCI trip out when I ran fast on my treadmill. This only occurred when I ran at close to the TM's max speed of 12mph.
The suggestion I got on this forum was not to connect the TM to a GFCI. That is how I solved the problem.

FW


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

fw2007 said:


> Myths and mysteries about GFCI's.
> First off, I have experienced GFCI tripping due to power fluctuations on a number of occasions. Once was during a lightning storm, when I admit, we may have disproportionate currents flowing between hot and neutral. The other experience was during a time when the power utility was experiencing problems. The voltage would occasionally spike up or down, causing a flickering in lights. The breaker tripped three times before I contacted the utility. Since they did not have any record of trouble in the area, the linesman replaced the butt splices on our service, but that did not help at all. The problem eventually resolved on it's own, when the faulty switch or whatever was causing the problem at the substation was corrected.
> 
> Radio frequency can also induce currents between either hot or neutral and earth, causing the GFCI to trip. I am an amateur radio operator, and have also experienced this condition when my transmitter output power was only 100W.
> ...


FW, interesting points here. Here are a couple of my thoughts in response.

The RF noise issue is intriguing. I would guess that you'd need a substantial output power in order to couple enough magnetic field to create the current required to trick bag the GFCI. But, even so, I could see it possibly. When I think about it, the induced current would be the same direction/phase in both circuit conductors which would be additive from the perspective of the torroid in the GFCI. Your bad connection based on your low VSWR reading was probably leaking or radiating RF energy.

I understand your thinking regarding the breaker vs. recept. It is possible but probably unlikely. Then again, the OP lives near me and I may have the opportunity to check this problem out first hand. And I will certainly keep RF sources in mind when I audit the site conditions.

Capacitive leakage? Well, the capacitive reactance between the motor windings and frame should be a constant based on the supply frequency and capacitance of the insulation. Obviously, as the frequency approaches DC, this reactance approaches infinity. I would assume (and here's where Micromind can probably help) that by design, a motor's insulation is such to avoid this under normal operating conditions. While I would agree that under _abnormal_ conditions, enough leakage could occur to cause a nuissance trip, this is far from the frequency that the OP is experiencing.

The megger is very different from your multimeter. The test voltage applied by a handheld meter is quite low whereas in the case of the megger, it applies a much higher voltage (i.e. 500 or 1000V typically). Weak insulation would not necessarily show itself when subjected to the small voltage associated with your meter but can be discovered when tested with the meg-ohm meter.

Good points from a different perspective. I didn't mean to come across as being combative but I grow a little tired when I hear so much misinformation floating around about how GF devices work. Thanks for the fresh insights!:thumbsup:

Jimmy


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

fw2007 said:


> A few months ago, I had a GFCI trip out when I ran fast on my treadmill. This only occurred when I ran at close to the TM's max speed of 12mph. The suggestion I got on this forum was not to connect the TM to a GFCI. That is how I solved the problem.FW


Sorry that I didn't see this when you originally posted. I would have told you to stop running so damn fast! :laughing:


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Interesting comments on the RF. There ia no RF in the area. I haven't seen any antenna's, etc. BTW, I am an Advanced Class Amatuer OP myself. 

One thing the electrician did say to me but without a lot of confidence was to put a GFCI breaker at the panel side and remove the outlet GFCI. 

Why this would make a difference I don't know except if there is some inductance or capacitance of some kind taking place at the outlet that might not be "seen" at the breaker side..might be worth a shot.

Would the distance, about 15ft to the panel make a difference? 

Would a panel GFCI breaker see the washer differently?

BTW, all GFCI's are alone on dedicated circuits. All pop when the washer is connected to any of them. 

A megger seems to be the only test that hasn't been done on this..anybody got a spare one laying around the house? LOL

Interesting...


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

I have to admit that the chances a GFCI breaker would not trip where the GFCI recept would are small. After all, an imbalance between hot and neutral at the receptacle will be the same imbalance at the breaker. I was thinking more along the lines of RF noise than actual current flow.

The issues I experienced with my Amateur station were only while I was running the 100W "Low Band" rig, not my 20W VHF rig, so yes, it does take a significant output.

As for the treadmill, I don't normally run so fast. Just short sprints from time to time.

I guess a megger is more along the lines of a "Hi Pot" tester, which applies a high voltage to test for insulation breakdown.

FW


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

chris75 said:


> And washing machines are not required to have GFCI protection in 2008.


Unless they are located in a bathroom, an unfinished basement, a garage, or a work shop. Or within 6 feet of a sink. :whistling2:


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

roztom said:


> Have a GFCI outlet hooked to a washing machine which blows intermittantly. It always blows when it has just finished filling and about to change to a wash/rinse cycle.


Is there any possibility that water is leaking or spilling on the controls or motor intermittently? I am thinking about your statement above about "just finished filling."

Was a new GFCI installed, not of the same batch as your existing three?


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jrclen said:


> Unless they are located in a bathroom, an unfinished basement, a garage, or a work shop. Or within 6 feet of a sink. :whistling2:



Or outside, accessory buildings, and crawl spaces.... :wink:


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

There is no water coming or splasing from the washer. This is a typical Whirlpool Commercial coin-op washer.

The first washer which had the problem, we replaced the motor and had the same problem. We then replaced the washer, same problem = 3 new or at least different motors. All blow the GFCI's no matter which of three I put the washer on.

The GFCI's were all replaced one at a time and several more than once at different times.

:furious:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Regardless, the 2005 & 2008 NEC states that there is an exception in which a GFCI does not need to be used, and that is Washer, Fridge & Freezer, and Garage Door Openers. Okay, I will take the 6' within a sink, but what Electrician do you know, that will place a Washing Machine outlet at that min. or use a GFCI on a Washing Machine outlet?

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/06_c/cook.html
*In dwelling unit crawl spaces
*_NEC_-1990 added an additional requirement for GFCI protection of 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles installed in crawl spaces [currently 210.8(A)(4)] to the section covering basements.
The basement requirement was also revised to limit the GFCI protection for the 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles installed in unfinished areas. Three exceptions were added for basement receptacles as follows: *(1) A single receptacle supplied by a dedicated branch circuit and located and identified for specific use by a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer. (2) The laundry circuit. (3) A single receptacle supplying a permanently installed sump pump. Three exceptions that are worded differently from the exceptions of the 1990 edition exist today in 210.8(A)(5). The current exceptions include the original applications and additional applications. 
*
*At unfinished accessory buildings
In addition to the reformatting of 210.8, NEC-1996 included several additional changes for GFCI protection. Grade level portions of unfinished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas were added to the garage section of 210.8. This section did not require accessory buildings to be energized, but did require GFCI protection of 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles that were installed.
The exceptions that were already part of 210.8(A)(2) for garages also applied to the accessory buildings. This edition deleted the limitation for GCFI protection for outdoor receptacles installed at grade level. Although 210.52 did not require outdoor receptacles for elevated areas, if they were installed, GFCI protection would be required. An exception was included that still remains today to exclude receptacles that are not readily accessible, supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or de-icing equipment. This equipment is required to be provided with GFPE protection by Article 426. This edition deleted the specific exception for receptacles that supply sump pumps in basements. The permission to supply that equipment from a receptacle without GFCI protection was considered to be covered by the “appliance located in dedicated space” exception. The 1996 edition also changed the GFCI protection requirements for kitchens. The requirement was expanded to require the protection for all receptacles serving countertops rather than limiting the protection to receptacles within 6 ft. of the sink.
*


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> Regardless, the 2005 & 2008 NEC states that there is an exception in which a GFCI does not need to be used, and that is Washer, Fridge & Freezer, and Garage Door Openers. As for the Washer being within 6' of the Deep Sink, the exception of the NEC still states that a dedicated outlet for a Washer without GFCI can be used.


Those exceptions are not in the 2008 NEC. They have been eliminated. If there is a 125V receptacle outlet located in a location covered by 210.8A 1 through 8 they must be GFCI protected regardless of what is plugged into them. Even the sump pump. :yes:

Exceptions: deicing equipment outdoors, and fire alarm or burglar alarms in basements.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

gregzoll said:


> but what Electrician do you know, that will place a Washing Machine outlet at that min. or use a GFCI on a Washing Machine outlet?



Me, because alot of the homes I wire, the home owners stuff the laundry equipment in a bathroom or unfinished basement, or they install a laundry sink next to the laundry equipment, and its code. Thats why I have a license, thats why people pay me money.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> Okay, I will take the 6' within a sink, but what Electrician do you know, that will place a Washing Machine outlet at that min. or use a GFCI on a Washing Machine outlet?


Most electricians will install a receptacle receptacle outlet within 3 feet of the washing machine, whether it is located next to the deep sink or not. And if that receptacle outlet is closer than 6 feet from the sink, we will install a GFCI protected receptacle. Electricians don't write the code, but we do comply with it.


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> motors do not mysteriously eat, steal, hide or leak current.


 a motor can't, but could a capacitor? Thats not a smart ass comment, its a real question


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

> Okay, I will take the 6' within a sink, but what Electrician do you know, that will place a Washing Machine outlet at that min. or use a GFCI on a Washing Machine outlet?


I will, because it is required by code. If I don't, it's a red tag.


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

roztom said:


> There is no water coming or splasing from the washer. This is a typical Whirlpool Commercial coin-op washer.
> 
> The first washer which had the problem, we replaced the motor and had the same problem. We then replaced the washer, same problem = 3 new or at least different motors. All blow the GFCI's no matter which of three I put the washer on.
> 
> ...


You said you replaced the washer. Is this now a bran-new washer, or a used one from somewhere else?

Are all of the GFCI receptacles of the same manufacturer?
If they have been, try one of a different mfr.
BTW, I would not be tossing out any of the GFCI's removed. They are probably good.

FW


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

fw2007 said:


> You said you replaced the washer. Is this now a bran-new washer, or a used one from somewhere else?
> 
> Are all of the GFCI receptacles of the same manufacturer?
> If they have been, try one of a different mfr.
> ...



I'm beginning to think this is some rebuilt piece of equipment.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Or, that the GFCI could be underrated for the circuit (ie 15amp on a 20amp circuit). This would mean that the Start up load on the Washer motor is enough to trip the GFCI.


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> Or, that the GFCI could be underrated for the circuit (ie 15amp on a 20amp circuit). This would mean that the Start up load on the Washer motor is enough to trip the GFCI.



once again in this thread, over current is not how a gfi works. IT WILL ONLY TRIP if there is more current on the hot than on the nuetral. ie some voltage going to ground instead of to the nuetral


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Okay genius, inform me how the current path goes from the point of the startup of the Washer, to the time it gets past the load on the motor so that it can spin? Whenever we started up the Generators on board ship, we would have to keep resetting the breakers, because the Startup load on the Generator would be higher on oh my god, the Hot side of the circuit, because the return path is oh my god, the Neutral side.

Just because not everyone is a certified Electrician, does not make them ignorant of how a Electrical Circuit works, or how a GFCI can trip by a nuisance load such as a motor.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

gregzoll said:


> Just because not everyone is a certified Electrician, does not make them ignorant of how a Electrical Circuit works, or how a GFCI can trip by a nuisance load such as a motor.


Ok, the mean side of me may be coming out. A motor is not a "nuisance load." Neither is a fluorescent light, or a capacitor. The GFCI has a toroidal coil in it, though which traces/wires (Rob/Micromind-I'm sure you know) pass. When current is balanced, i.e. current in the hot = neutral current, the resultant magnetic flux in the torroid is zero. It is only when the two are imbalanced on the "primary side" (this is not strictly correct) by an amount in excess of effectively 5mA that the device trips. This indicates that at least some of the current is leaving the circuit and represents a ground fault. Motors, ballasts, etc. do not deviate, i.e. they do not steal current from the hot and blast those electrons into the "ether." Sorry, it just doesn't happen. A surge caused by a rotating load creates a current that, while perhaps greater than the nominal operating current, is still a series current, and again its magnitude is equal in both hot and neutral conductors.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

gregzoll said:


> Okay genius, inform me how the current path goes from the point of the startup of the Washer, to the time it gets past the load on the motor so that it can spin? Whenever we started up the Generators on board ship, we would have to keep resetting the breakers, because the Startup load on the Generator would be higher on oh my god, the Hot side of the circuit, because the return path is oh my god, the Neutral side.
> 
> Just because not everyone is a certified Electrician, does not make them ignorant of how a Electrical Circuit works, or how a GFCI can trip by a nuisance load such as a motor.


Greg, I think you might want to do some reading before shooting your mouth off like this. You were darn sure you could teach us the National Electric Code, and put your foot in your mouth. Now you are convinced that GFCI's work the same as circuit breakers, but if you read and listen, you will find out that is not the case. I suggest you loose the "know it all" attitude.

A motor is not a nuisance load. Neither is any other load. In rush current has no effect what so ever on a GFCI device. Many of us here would be more than happy to explain to you how a GFCI device works if you haven't gotten enough info yet to understand it. Just ask.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

my head is going to explode....


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

chris75 said:


> my head is going to explode....


 
Really?? but it allready past the 4th of July and someone still have leftover blackcat firecracker going off ??


Merci,Marc


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## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

jimmy21 said:


> a motor can't, but could a capacitor? Thats not a smart ass comment, its a real question


A capacitor will certainly "leak" current to ground if it is wired between hot and earth.
I'm wondering whether it's possible that the mfr of the washer(s) places caps in this manner to help supress noise spikes that might cause problems with electronic gear in the house.
If the washer has to meet FCC EMC requirements, they certainly would have to do something to supress noise.

FW


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

fw2007 said:


> A capacitor will certainly "leak" current to ground if it is wired between hot and earth.
> I'm wondering whether it's possible that the mfr of the washer(s) places caps in this manner to help supress noise spikes that might cause problems with electronic gear in the house.
> If the washer has to meet FCC EMC requirements, they certainly would have to do something to supress noise.
> 
> FW


Good theory. We need to wake up the Maytag repairman and bring him in here. I would want to know how old this machine is, that the manufacturer would design it in a way that was not compatible with GFCI protection. Especially a commercial coil machine.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

The machine is appx 2 yrs old. The one it replaced was the same unit purchased at the same time. 

When we tested the GFI's with the washer on line, the GFCI's did not pop and the washer did not create any imbalance. All GFI's are alone on individual circuits. The GFCI's all worked properly when they were meter tested for trip ma and also proper wiring. 

We are not done with ths yet, but....


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

jrclen said:


> Good theory. We need to wake up the Maytag repairman and bring him in here. I would want to know how old this machine is, that the manufacturer would design it in a way that was not compatible with GFCI protection. Especially a commercial coil machine.


See Tom's comment. Being a fellow Oak Parker, I've been doing quite a bit of talking with him regarding the problem and I'm hopefully going to make a house call either this weekend or early next week.

The theory about the cap is plausible but note that when he had a known "good" machine brought in from another location (where it was in fact working without fail from a GFCI receptacle), it behaves the same way, i.e. trips the recept. This got me thinking though. When I was talking to Tom, he told me that the electricians that came in actually tested the GFCI's with a rig that reported the imbalance level at which the device trips. They found no issue with any of the three at the subject site. However, no one has tested the GFCI at the supposed "good" location to know for sure that it is working _and will actually trip due to an excessive ground fault_. In the event that we find that it is _not _working, we may have one of a few issues: 1. By (inadvertent) design, these washers will in fact trick-bag a GFCI device; 2. Both washing machines have issues.

I know that the latter is a stretch but I'd feel great if that was indeed the problem. I'm sure many of you can think of experiences where we changed a defective part/fuse/device with a new one, straight out of the box, and wound up with a still non-working machine, system, circuit, etc. And after hours of ripping hair out, come to find that the "new" thing we installed was just as _bad_ (out of the box, even) as the original!

Now, Tom tells me that the problem occurs when the cycle changes from fill to agitate. These machines use a rotary timer device with index fingers that operate the various controllers, solenoid valves, etc. I have seen electro-mechanical switching devices go bad due to excessive wear of mechanical parts. As much as I'd like to get inside though, Tom tells me that he cannot access the internals (of course I do have my set of security screw bits :jester.

I am going to try and monitor the equipment ground between the washer and receptacle with a piece of equipment that can capture/hold any non-zero current. And just for GP, I will do some checking of the wiring, but I must admit that I don't expect that I will find anything. If the wiring was an issue, I would imagine that the machine wouldn't even get through the fill cycle (and besides, from my discussions with Tom, it does in fact really sound like these were some first-rate guys and they checked the obvious stuff too).

I'll update the forum with any findings.

Jimmy


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*GFCI Nightmare*

A properly wired GFI senses the difference in current leaving the H wire and coming back on the N wire. It's kind of a differential ammeter and it doesn't "know" ground.
If you exceed its budget of 4 milliamps it assumes the extra current is giving someone a shock. If you exceed 4 mA for >10 seconds the GFI is supposed to trip.

Contributions to correct tripping and false tripping:
leakage current in degraded insulation
leakage current is otherwise working appliances
reactive leakage current due to the distributed capacitance in cable (~100 picofarads/foot)
normal motor winding-to-shell capacitance
normal motor currents that are not sine-wave-shaped
normal motor startup currents that are nowhere near sine-shaped


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## KHouse75 (May 14, 2008)

Plug it in to another GFCI in your house with a properly rated extension cord. See if it trips that GFCI.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

KHouse75 said:


> Plug it in to another GFCI in your house with a properly rated extension cord. See if it trips that GFCI.


Hey guys, read all of the thread. A considerable amount of info has been presented. Yes, we all understand how GFCI's operate. A lot of things (and certainly the usual stuff) have been shared. This is not black and white.


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## Jacques (Jul 9, 2008)

iv'e been doing appliance repair for 42 years and can tell you that any appliance connected to a gfi will eventually trip. the manf. all state that it is not advisable to use them but what they mean is don't use. there is a specfic meter avail. to measure current leakage and manf spec' as to allowable leakage this is done at factory. just put it on a dedicated line and your problems resolved.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Jacques said:


> iv'e been doing appliance repair for 42 years and can tell you that any appliance connected to a gfi will eventually trip. the manf. all state that it is not advisable to use them but what they mean is don't use. there is a specfic meter avail. to measure current leakage and manf spec' as to allowable leakage this is done at factory. just put it on a dedicated line and your problems resolved.


And after GFCI receptacles are required with the adoption of the 2008 code? There will be no exemption for appliances. I have installed scores of washing machines on GFCI receptacles and have NEVER had a call back due to nuisance tripping.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*NEVER had a call back*

Both sides swear to what they are seeing, so I think there is some other factor involved here. 

There may not be a single cause. It might have to do with the interaction of several components. Each component passes its own manu specs, but together all the tolerances add up in the wrong direction, and the power quality-GF-motor system fails intermittently.

And it might not be in the interest of any particular manu to pursue this knotty problem.


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Jacques said:


> iv'e been doing appliance repair for 42 years and can tell you that any appliance connected to a gfi will eventually trip. the manf. all state that it is not advisable to use them but what they mean is don't use. there is a specfic meter avail. to measure current leakage and manf spec' as to allowable leakage this is done at factory. just put it on a dedicated line and your problems resolved.



That is just so wrong in so many ways....


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## mstar (Jul 9, 2008)

SO what was the answer. Could a weak start capacitor cause the GFI to trip? Could replacing it fix the problem or would it be a waste of money?
Thanks


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*This may not help. . .*

but it can't hurt.

Here are the guts of one version of a GFI
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM1851.pdf
See page 6 for an overall block diagram. 

If it takes 10 sec to trip after the wash cycle starts, the GF suddenly sees ~4 mA after the wash cycle starts. 1 sec, 20 mA; 0.1 sec, 100 mA (all according to the UL spec that addresses this device)
If it trips fast, there are not too many places that 100 mA can hide. 
Then, in order to trace this high leakage current you'd have to substitute a conventional outlet, so watch for shock hazard or get someone comfortable with elec. to do it.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Here's a clue*

that points to more than one cause.

In the abstract of this patent
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6327124.html
they say ". . .without experiencing nuisance tripping
due to extraneous noise." which seems to say that GF's feeding a motor are more sensitive to noise. 

I also notice that the waveform of the current is not addressed in the data sheet from my previous post. Unless this issue is covered in the UL943 spec referenced, this toroidal ammeter can not possibly treat all current waveforms the same.
Fault currents are different and that base is covered.

Since the consequences of tripping for no reason are much better than not tripping on a valid fault, I would think the design of GFs is intentionally biased in the direction of nuisance trips (and away from product liability lawsuits).


----------



## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

micromind said:


> It's a common practice to bond the neutral to the ground on an older 3-wire dryer, but I've never heard of it on a washer.


I have NEVER seen an appliance which has a plug have bonded neutral to ground.
I have seen it on dryers, as mentioned, but these are hard-wired - no plug.

FW


----------



## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

I think BigJimmy has a point. The GFCI at the OTHER location, where the washer never tripped, has not been tested.
I would have that one tested as well. At least, push the test button to see that it is working.

FW


----------



## haristy (Jul 13, 2008)

*master electrician heidi*

You did not mention the wire size or amperage of the breaker. Although grounding is very important so is the wire size going to the load and the amperage on the circuit. Yoyizit is forgetting that the technical jargen is difficult to understand to the "typical dyi -er."



roztom said:


> Have a GFCI outlet hooked to a washing machine which blows intermittantly. It always blows when it has just finished filling and about to change to a wash/rinse cycle.
> 
> I have had 3 electricians out and have done the following:
> 
> ...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

For the Washer, it should be a dedicated outlet, with 12/2 (may be 12/3 if feeding another convenience outlet), and breaker can be 20amp, with a 15amp GFCI for the Washer. Problem is, if all units are showing signs of GFCI trips, could be just poor quality product, due to we all know that majority of Apartment & condo maintenance companies will purchase the cheapest product out there, vs. a self- purchaser who would get the best product.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

fw2007 said:


> I think BigJimmy has a point. The GFCI at the OTHER location, where the washer never tripped, has not been tested.
> I would have that one tested as well. At least, push the test button to see that it is working.FW


Thanks, man!


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Testing a GFI for too much sensitivity*

While being mindful of shock hazards, running a resistor of more than 120/4mA = 30K (1w) from the H outlet slot to the G hole should not trip the thing.


I guess it's possible some of these GFIs could trip with 40K (1/2w) or 60K (1/2w) resistors to ground, and this would not show up with the test button [which uses a 16K resistor].

Also, if the GFI holds during the low-current-demand fill cycle, adding a resistor to ground will tell you how close to tripping you are, i.e., how much of the 4 mA budget you've already used up. 
This resistor must have a wattage rating > [14400 divided by the R value in ohms].

If a 120K (1/4w) resistor trips the thing, I'd wonder where the other 3 mA are going.


----------



## fw2007 (Jul 11, 2007)

Yoyizit said:


> While being mindful of shock hazards, running a resistor of more than 120/4mA = 30K (1w) from the H outlet slot to the G hole should not trip the thing.
> 
> 
> I guess it's possible some of these GFIs could trip with 40K (1/2w) or 60K (1/2w) resistors to ground, and this would not show up with the test button [which uses a 16K resistor].
> ...


I wouldn't try that yourself. Get a qualified electrician who will have the proper test equipment.

FW


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Just a suggestion without getting too deep into this, if code allows, why not try a class B (20MA)GFI breaker and see if that works.


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Is Class B 20ma GFCI compliant for a residential installation within 6ft of a sink?

Tom


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## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Probably not, under definitions it says a Class A. Is this in your house? For some reason I was thinking this was a laundry room in an apartment complex. Don;t feel like reading through 95 posts


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

It is in a basement/utility room of a "3-flat" building. 

BTW: I have done a search on the web to see if there are any posts about the specific commercial washer having GFCI tripping issues and I found none... I would assume there would be others if this was a manufacturing defect.

Tom


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

fw2007 said:


> I wouldn't try that yourself. Get a qualified electrician who will have the proper test equipment.FW


He has. I was impressed as the guys that he had out originally tested all of the GFCI's with a GF test rig and all passed within spec.


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

wirenut1110 said:


> Just a suggestion without getting too deep into this, if code allows, why not try a class B (20MA)GFI breaker and see if that works.


You cannot use a class B GFCI device....


----------



## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tom, can you post a pic of the schematic? Maybe we could look at it and see possibly where this fault could be occuring. We could find the problem and sell it back to the manufacturer.. lol


----------



## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

chris75 said:


> You cannot use a class B GFCI device....


I already said that


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

wirenut1110 said:


> I already said that


I just like to sound important....


----------



## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

chris75 said:


> I just like to sound important....


:laughing::thumbup: I'm with ya there


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Guys: No schematic here... Thanks, Tom


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

roztom said:


> Guys: No schematic here... Thanks, Tom


Tom-

I went looking yesterday for any schematics and wasn't very lucky. What manuf/model are these again? Also, I'm still planning on coming by but it will have to be next week in the evening. The whole weekend fell apart yesterday when son #1 flushed my toothbrush down the toilet...


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

LOL.:laughing: Sorry... I assume it got stuck... must be a large toothbrush... maybe we should have a toothbrush/toilet thread. It would probably be "very" interesting, almost as much as this one. :wink:

This thread has been most interesting and educational. Way beyond anything I expected. All good. Of course, the mystery still continues.

Tom


----------



## wirenut1110 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think you should win a prize for the most threads and views. Drop that in the suggestion box. One thing I've noticed that the subject hasn't changed either.


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*I'm out of cards. . .*

Is there anything that has not been tried?

Is there a single thing that can account for most, or some, of what has been happening?

Did what was tried make any faulty assumptions about how this washer-romex-GFI system works?

Is the problem cause coming from outside of the washer-romex-GFI system?


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I don't know if this is material but the wires are pulled thru conduit. 

Jimmy is planning on coming over some time this week to check it out. We will try to get the washer to create an imbalance. OF course when we have tried it before with monitors/meters on it it did nothing..All the numbers were right on and the draw on the GFI didn't even hiccup.

What other variables would there be based on what we know so far?

Tom


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> Is there anything that has not been tried?
> 
> Is there a single thing that can account for most, or some, of what has been happening?


Yes, it could be two bad machines. We still do not know if the GFCI at the "good" location works or not.





Yoyizit said:


> Did what was tried make any faulty assumptions about how this washer-romex-GFI system works?





Yoyizit said:


> Is the problem cause coming from outside of the washer-romex-GFI system?


No romex, instead loose conductors in pipe. This shouldn't make a bit of difference though. And yes, the problem could exist outside of the circuit but thus far, nothing has seemed to be an issue.



roztom said:


> I don't know if this is material but the wires are pulled thru conduit. Tom


In general, conduit is good. Conduit is our _friend_. The only major issue I've ever seen with metallic conduit is when some knucklehead didn't run all of the circuit conductors through the same pipe. This can lead to inductive heating due to eddy currents. If this happens to be some big current carrying wire, the effect can be very real and very devastating. The other major problem is when some nimble-minded engineer whistling2 steps on a loose piece laying on the plant floor and winds up on his heiny.:laughing:


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*


fw2007 said:



I wouldn't try that yourself. Get a qualified electrician who will have the proper test equipment.

Click to expand...

* 
*That's kind of my point. I don't know of any GFI test unit that tests for a GFI that's too sensitive, or one that tests for a GFI that has most of its 4 mA budget used up. *
*There are tests and then there tests.*

*It's kind of strange, since no one complains about a GFI that didn't trip and I don't think the reason for this is that all of them are dead (!) yet the GFI testers do essentially the same thing as the GFI test button and it is almost guaranteed to pass.*

*I suppose if you can get past the marketing people and talk to an Applications Engineer for the particular GFI manu you might get some clues, if he will speak to you. *
*I wouldn't even try the washer maker, but perhaps an App Engineer for the washer motor OEM. . .?*

*I don't guess electricians customarily get this deep into a problem like this, and if there is no perceived demand for a homebuilt or commercially built "GFI Headroom Tester", or special test equipment found only in a factory, who else can be called?*

*I'd like to go 15 rounds with this system problem in person, but IL is not down the block from me. *

*The problem could also be that this type of problem can't be solved in Cyberspace; you have to be there.*


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I would not hesitate to contact the manufacturer or their rep. Commercial equipment usually gets a response unless it's really old and outdated. It's something that hasn't been tried yet.


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I looked up the model's spec's online and it is compliant to 2007 standards I believe. 

*Whirlpool CAM2752TQ *

*http://www.whirlpoolcommerciallaundry.com/admin/prod_lit/Documents/SalesLit/AA801071_CWLL118_s.pdf*

Tom


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Go online and check out tech support. Send an email or call. Many times problems like this show up, and they have a solution already figured out. It's worth a try at this point.

http://www.whirlpool.com/custserv/index.jsp

From the manual online:

If you need
assistance…
The Whirlpool Consumer Interaction
Center will answer any questions
about operating or maintaining your
washer not covered in the Installation
Instructions. The Whirlpool Consumer
Interaction Center is open 24 hours
a day, 7 days a week. Just dial
1-800 NO BELTS (1-800-662-3587) —
the call is free.
When you call, you will need the
washer model number and serial
number. Both numbers can be found
on the serial-rating plate located on
your appliance.
IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
WARNING: To reduce the risk of fire, electric shock, or injury to persons
when using your washer, follow basic precautions, including the following:
SAVE THESE INSTRUCTIONS


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*Don't Shoot The Messenger*

JRCLEN suggested I call Whirlpool, which I did.

Before you come after me with a pitchfork, or worse, here is what they told me:

Heavy Duty Appliances: Washers, Refrig, Freezers, Disposals, Dishwashers,etc are exempted from requiring a GFCI. He said they get calls all the time about this issue and it is not specific to their equiptment manufacture or spec.

I told him that the 2008 code had changed and that anything within 6 ft of water/tub, etc. was required to have a GFI. He said washers, etc were still exempted.

He said that almost all of these washers were installed next to a tub like mine. He said they all would/could blow the GFI which is why they are exempted.

I asked again about the 2008 code update. He said that if the electric was updated in a room that all outlets must be brought up to current code with the "exception" of heavy duty appliances like washers, etc.

While this information may not agree based on what we have discussed here, it came directly from the manufacturer. While I am not defending them in any way, it seems from a liability standpoint that they would/shoud not dispense erroneous info.

I know that many of you have GFI's installed with no problems. I do have the problem and you know that my installation has been checked out thoroughly.

I really am at a loss on this and suspect I will rest my case.

I'm interested in your thoughts. (Please don't tell me the manuf is #@^*% in the head)

Tom


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Tom-

I noticed this in the brochure when I was reading earlier:

120V, 60 Hz., A.C.
*Standard* 15 Amp Breaker/
Fuse Branch Circuit​for Each Washer

I wasn't sure what they meant by "standard" so I wound up emailing them too. I haven't heard back but they probably think that we're the same two people:no:.

What would be more interesting would be to talk to one of their design engineers who may have some insight into it.

So, if your next step is to replace the recept and you're not comfortable doing it yourself, let me know and I'll swing by and replace them (I work cheaply, for beer, just not for _cheap_ beer!). I'm still baffled as to why you are having the problem here whereas the same machine worked fine at another location that was also GFCI protected.


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

roztom said:


> While this information may not agree based on what we have discussed here, it came directly from the manufacturer. While I am not defending them in any way, it seems from a liability standpoint that they would/shoud not dispense erroneous info.


Or maybe it's simply like when you call your internet service provider and they ask if you've re-booted.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks JIm: I'll buy you a beer anyway..:thumbup: and anyone else who wants to make the trip to Chicagoland.. (whatever that is).

I do have it on it's own standard receptacle which I put in several weeks ago while I researched a solution. (My tenants were rebelling) 

I did however, not want to have any issue with safety which is why I wanted to pursue this and exhaust all possibilities. I just could not and cannot accept that this is an issue that is just part of the normal operation of the machine. They say otherwise.

I assume this is where we need to park this thread, other than any further comments, laments, etc.

Beer for everyone and you can have more than one.

Tom


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

roztom said:


> Beer for everyone and you can have more than one.


Shhh...JRClen may have heard you!


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## vietnogi (Jul 4, 2008)

yum, beer......


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

And here I have already designed and built a roomful of special test equipment just for solving this problem, that I was going to ship to you!!!


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Beer? Did someone mention beer? I like beer.

Tom, I'm glad you called the manufacturer. 

He said they get calls all the time about this issue and it is not specific to their equiptment manufacture or spec.

That tells us something right there. There obviously is a problem and other people have experienced it besides you.

You have certainly gone above and beyond on this.


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

jrclen said:


> Beer? Did someone mention beer? I like beer.


Sorry this is all coming to and end. I was hoping that I could inspire you to drive down to chi-town with your pipes!


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

*Thanks to ALL OF YOU*

I have to say. This group has been incredible... You guys certainly gave an incredible amount of your time and interest. Some of you volunteered to cross state lines or ship homebrewed test eqipt.

Jim even volunteered to visit the location and a do a site survey. JIm: I really think it was the thought of a cold beer that got your attention..:laughing:

Isn't it amazing that manufacturers can still produce equiptment that overrides consumer safety. After all, a GFI is a good idea. Sure we all lived without them forever but I'm sure GFI's have saved many a consumers life...

I really just don't get it.

Best to all of you...and my most sincere appreciation..

Tom:cool2:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Wait, wait. .*

What is the moral of this story?
Did we do all the right things and still came out wrong?


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Looks that way.... 

"_Apparently_" the "heavy duty motor" GFI exemption still exists...

It is so strange that this is not posted anywhere on the web or mentioned or shows up in any kind of search. Think of all the wear and tear it would have saved if it was.

Maybe now if someone searches this, it will bring them to this thread...



Tom


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

So if the following applies

"if a [DIY member] misdiagnoses a [problem], the question is not, _"Was that diagnosis wrong?"_ but rather, _"Would a professional acting under the same circumstances, with the knowledge available to the field at the time of the diagnosis, have concluded that the given diagnosis was reasonable?"_

then we all (still) meet this standard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

Oh, yeah!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I still wish we knew what in this machine is causing the trip. There are motors and controls and appliances all over which do not trip a GFCI.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

dang have to change this post oh well.,,,,,,,,


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Frenchy.


Reading back in the thread it appears this is dwelling unit (Apartments?) but I don't think the laundry washer is required to be gfci unless within six feet of a basin.

I do think the manufacturer thought it was commercial. But I have never heard of a heavy duty motor at 120 volts tripping gfci's.

I deleted the previous post (sorry) because I believe it was not applicable to this situation.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> Hi Frenchy.
> 
> 
> Reading back in the thread it appears this is dwelling unit (Apartments?) but I don't think the laundry washer is required to be gfci unless within six feet of a basin.
> ...


 I understand you deleted that part that allright.,,

Now let get into diffrent matter now and yes I am pretty sure the OP mention a resdential Apartment set up but the question is that room is finshed basement room or unfinished room it can really change the code a bit on 2005 or earliers codes but on 2008 ya are out of luck mantory GFCI or AFCI depending how you destaned the room.

In unfinshed dry basement the old code say don't need GFCI unless you are near sink/ landry tub [ 6 feet or less { 1.8 M or less} ] then yes GFCI'ed

A 120 v hevey duty motor trip the GFCI ?? naw that pretty much myth a good motor will useally not affect the GFCI unless the winding or starting capaitor go bonkers.

But IIRC the OP is in Chicago area they may have additional local codes what we may not aware with it.

Merci,Marc


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks Frenchy 

That clears things up as to code. Gfci is good IMO for the washer... lots of metal there.

I still think the tech guy was blowing smoke rings out his ears about heavy duty exemption ....


----------



## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I am thinking also if the tech guy don't like the GFCI at all well.,, too bad we have no choice but follow the codes we can't go A**backward on this one.

Yeah from time to time I do get some story about washer or dryer get " charged up " and give someone a shock and with 120 volts it very easy to do that. That one reason why I like the GFCI it will work properly.

Merci,Marc


----------



## Jacques (Jul 9, 2008)

Jacques said:


> iv'e been doing appliance repair for 42 years and can tell you that any appliance connected to a gfi will eventually trip. the manf. all state that it is not advisable to use them but what they mean is don't use. there is a specfic meter avail. to measure current leakage and manf spec' as to allowable leakage this is done at factory. just put it on a dedicated line and your problems resolved.


SOOO, although scorn was heaped upon my unrepentent head. it appears i am vindicated at last.


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I explained to the tech guy that washer was located in the finished basement area.

I told him it was next to a tub.

I also asked him if it was in a residence if the exemption still existed. He said YES.

I was very suspect so I was asking him over and over.. I brought up the 208 code, etc. and he said it was still exempt...


Tom


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Transient vs. steady-state*




frenchelectrican said:


> 120 v hevey duty motor trip the GFCI ??


 
Not just a motor, but a motor that goes *abruptly* from lightly loaded to heavily loaded.

I've not seen the transient response of resi GFs published or addressed, anywhere. The manu is probably busy optimizing noise immunity.


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Not just a motor, but a motor that goes *abruptly* from lightly loaded to heavily loaded.


All motors do that. And the inrush does not affect the GFCI because all the current is accounted for.


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Jacques said:


> SOOO, although scorn was heaped upon my unrepentent head. it appears i am vindicated at last.


I would like to be there when you and the factory guy argue with the electrical inspector that the washing machine receptacle outlet is exempt from the National Electric code. :laughing:

If Whirlpool cannot manufacture a washer which can be legally installed in a dwelling unit basement, people will be forced to buy a brand which can. Even if it comes from China. That is going to dawn on Whirlpool sooner or later.

I'm installing a laundry circuit in a bathroom on my latest job. That receptacle is required to be GFCI protected.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

John-

Funny coincidence...

I get these job solicitations from Career Builder once a day. This morning's top job: Senior Electrical Engineer at _Whirlpool_ (I am not even kidding). Maybe they sh**-canned the guy that talked to Tom :laughing:


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Based on what I learned here, I might qualify for the Whirlpool job..what's it pay?

Can I get a free washer too?

Tom


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

jrclen said:


> And the inrush does not affect the GFCI because all the current is accounted for.


 
Accounting for all the current took up the first installment of a graduate course called Transients in Linear Systems. Taking that course was about the worse beating I ever survived.

I regretfully and respectfully disagree with the current being accounted for _on a transient basis_. Steady-state, yes, but I don't think this washer problem lends itself to steady state analysis. 
I think that's one reason why it was so puzzling. We should have been looking at waveforms on a storage oscilloscope.

With all the electronics nowadays, more and more problems will only be solved by looking in the transient domain; they won't be seen with meters that take dozens of milliseconds to respond.


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> John-
> 
> Funny coincidence...
> 
> I get these job solicitations from Career Builder once a day. This morning's top job: Senior Electrical Engineer at _Whirlpool_ (I am not even kidding). Maybe they sh**-canned the guy that talked to Tom :laughing:


Hey Jim,
Maybe they discovered their washers need to work on a GFCI protected circuits and they want to hire a guy to make that happen. :whistling2:


----------



## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> Accounting for all the current took up the first installment of a graduate course called Transients in Linear Systems. Taking that course was about the worse beating I ever survived.
> 
> I regretfully and respectfully disagree with the current being accounted for _on a transient basis_. Steady-state, yes, but I don't think this washer problem lends itself to steady state analysis.
> I think that's one reason why it was so puzzling. We should have been looking at waveforms on a storage oscilloscope.
> ...


Ok, FYI I am but a lowly undergraduate electrical engineer and have slept through a lot of boring and useless courses myself. "Transients in Linear Systems" sounds about as relevant as "stochastic communication systems," a course that I failed miserably as it had not one connection to reality. BUT, I have gained a lot of experience working with motors of all shapes and sizes not to mention power systems in general. I tend to get a little rubbed when people try to convince me that motor starting/inrush currents somehow magically violate the laws of magnetism. Perhaps you could explain how when a motor starts (and slip=100% making the motor appear as a near short circuit to the supply) that this is somehow different from normal operating conditions? As John mentions, even though the current is elevated, as long as no real ground fault exists, the magnitudes of the currents in both supply conductors is equal and therefore the net magnetic flux in the GFCI's torroid is zero. A three-phase motor is no different really in that the instantaneous currents in the phase conductors result in, surprise!, _zero_ resultant magnetic flux in the GF CT. I have started a bizillion large 3-ph motors (>450HP) most of which had ground fault protection. And not once, NOT ONCE did one trip due to some alleged "transient" BS effect. In fact, most courses that deal with transients are focusing around abnormal (and sometimes normal, i.e. switching) events. A motor starting would not be categorized as a "transient event" (at least not according to the several dozens of sharp engineers that I've worked with in the past, but hey, maybe we _all_ slept through school and are therein equally stupid).

I think that this site needs a GFCI FAQ.:no:

Signing off,
Jimmy


----------



## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Great post Jim. :thumbup:


----------



## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

roztom said:


> I explained to the tech guy that washer was located in the finished basement area.
> 
> I told him it was next to a tub.
> 
> ...


Well, in certain areas, some communities have not adopted the latest electrical code, so if you live in one of those areas, he might be right and still meet the city/county/state requirements. For instance, in Madison County Alabama (outside of Huntsville) still only lists the 2002 NEC (and presumably enforces). It is always important to check what the local codes are.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> We should have been looking at waveforms on a storage oscilloscope.


Or perhaps we could have applied a couple of current sensors to the supply conductors to measure the difference. Or maybe measured the current through the ground conductor for the presence of some non-zero value. Hmmm, but then again, since this is a transient issue, the current is probably leaking out of the motor and drifting to ground through the ether in which case we'd need a quad-trace, color, whole-room hall-effect-ether-sensing scope with 1GB/sec sampling rate with the flux capacitor option to figure out that you don't have enough quarters to start the stupid machine.

I'll be in the next room, drinking beer. Let me know how it pans out.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

roztom said:


> I also asked him if it was in a residence if the exemption still existed. He said YES.


Mike Holt admitted to me once that he always calls the Whirlpool engineers when he's stumped on the code.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I worked in an assembly plant for 25 years and then along came a fellow who was going to find all the missing electrons costing the company money. He loved blue ink and was his way of saying "pay attention what I'm about to say is worthy of the nobel prize". 

Could it be? If so I want to thank yoyizit as the two years I searched for the missing little beggers in our motor control panels and having never found them I appreciate the countless hours of overtime in trying to find the scientific answer to our energy losses. Those were the best payroll years of my career. I also want to thank you for the beautiful 10 ton hoist we recieved back in 2001 when I spec'd a 10 thousand pound hoist. That was generous of you, I believe it is still in the crate it came in as we were not able to erect it in our shop....size ya know... Oh and about the 400 fluorescent light fixtures that we used to replace the high bay HPS in warehouse A. Those 4 bulb fixtures were 250 bucks a piece as I recall...400x250 = 100,000... but they were efficient fixtures. Used the same wattage as the ones we took down 5 years earlier (when another energy seeker wanted the HPS) and still had them in storage at the royal warehouse. Remember I wrote you (in blue ink) about that minor issue.

I'm sure Ford appreciates all the cost savings....by the way....how was Brazil?? I heard you were a big hit at the San Paulo plant.


I'm sorry but the blue ink. lt just has to be you...if not...my apologies...


----------



## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

Jim: When you up for a beer... ? tom


----------



## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*transients*

I have called upon a Supreme Being to assist me in this effort, but She hasn't called back yet.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Yoyizit said:


> I have called upon a Supreme Being to assist me in this effort, but She hasn't called back yet.


I'm a Virgo. Find out what you can about next week for me. Thx. :thumbsup:


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> Mike Holt admitted to me once that he always calls the Whirlpool engineers when he's stumped on the code.


Darn near sprayed beer all over. :laughing::laughing:


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jrclen said:


> Darn near sprayed beer all over. :laughing::laughing:


I thought that was pretty darn funny also...


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

chris75 said:


> I thought that was pretty darn funny also...


Listen you guys: this includes Speedy, JRClen, JV, Stubbie, Chris, Joed and Nap. We need to have a GFCI summit. My place. I'll supply the booze, the patio, the table and ashtrays (Stub-I'll have the non-alcoholics too, I promise!). We'll f'ing talk about this forum! That conversation will go until dawn, I imagine! You guys all _rock_!

PS-Sorry. I forgot Micromind. That guy is the rotating machinery master! Come liquor with us.

Peace,
Jimmy


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I'm a Virgo. Find out what you can about next week for me. Thx. :thumbsup:


Speedy,

Based on your funny as "H" response here (not to mention others elsewhere in this forum), I figured you _had_ to be from NYC. You are classic my friend:thumbsup:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

BigJimmy said:


> Listen you guys: this includes Speedy, JRClen, JV, Stubbie, Chris, Joed and Nap. We need to have a GFCI summit. My place. I'll supply the booze, the patio, the table and ashtrays (Stub-I'll have the non-alcoholics too, I promise!). We'll f'ing talk about this forum! That conversation will go until dawn, I imagine! You guys all _rock_!
> 
> PS-Sorry. I forgot Micromind. That guy is the rotating machinery master! Come liquor with us.
> 
> ...


 Don't forget JR's huge wood pile for bonfire as well if he come to the party lol.

I will add my European debate with the RCD { GFCI } as well so we can swap notes :yes:

Merci,Marc


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

frenchelectrican said:


> Don't forget JR's huge wood pile for bonfire as well if he come to the party lol.
> 
> I will add my European debate with the RCD { GFCI } as well so we can swap notes :yes:
> 
> Merci,Marc


Marc-

Sorry to have inadvertently forgotten to address you in my invite. You're more than welcome too, of course! And John's not invited unless he brings the pipes!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm not sure I would want to go to the windy city area right now. The Gov. is offering to send in the guard to help fight crime. Whats up with that?


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

jbfan said:


> I'm not sure I would want to go to the windy city area right now. The Gov. is offering to send in the guard to help fight crime. Whats up with that?


Piece of travel advice for you, JBfan. When visiting Chicago, never get in a cab and say "south side" or "west side" and you'll be fine (although I must admit: "south side" is pretty broad. There are a ton of good ole south-side Irish boys down there!).

I live just on the outside of the city these days where it's safe! No gun shots reported on my patio lately!


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> "south side" is pretty broad. There are a ton of good ole south-side Irish boys down there!).



And a ton of good Irish pubs. My buddies and I took our bag pipes down there one day. To say we had a lot of fun would be the understatement of the year. We even had the Irish cops coming in after their shift, some with pipes. And I'm pretty sure there were some Scotsmen in the crowds. Drinking north sea crude (Guinness).

Your get together sounds good to me Jim.


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## mstar (Jul 9, 2008)

*my problem solved itself*

Well my problem solved itself. Since I posted I plugged back into the GFI and the washer no longer trips.
It is very humid in my basement. 64% I am not sure if that had something to do with it or if something slashed where it should not and then dried out in the last couple weeks.

It is still humid down there so I can not see that being the only reason. I ran two loads just fine.
Hmmm


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## Roztom1 (Oct 6, 2007)

I like those problems that fix themselves... Now if my electricians bill would only pay itself..... :laughing:

Tom


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