# Sherwin Williams at Lowe's



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

As a plumber, I feel for you.
A lot of my clients supply their own fixtures, even some pipe and fittings. The brands are the same as I purchase from my supply house. 
I tell them that they now have no warranty beyond what I'm legally obligated for.


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## ben's plumbing (Oct 6, 2011)

its my understanding lowes purchased sherwin williams.....just hear say at this point...expect the sw stores to slowly close....


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Not likely Ben... SW is a NYSE listed company.... certainly there would be business news.

Valspar reported they lost a 200M retail account... must have been Lowes.


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## ront02769 (Nov 28, 2008)

Goes way back to mid December. Valspar lost ground, SW contracted to supply certain lines of paint to lowes.....and have same available in their own stores also. Ron


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## pman6 (Jul 11, 2012)

doesn't matter to me. I will pick the best paint that fits my budget.

What's the price on these lowes SW paints anyway?


I just checked lowes.com, and they have $5 quarts of SW HGTV paint.
That's the cheapest I've ever seen for a quart


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Just bought 2 gallons of exterior Semi-Gloss in the Ovation just to give it a whirl. I actually bought a lot of the Valspar Semi-gloss at Lowe's because it was so much cheaper than what I paid for SG at SW. Now it's gone! Replaced with the Ovation. It (the Ovation) was $34 a gallon.

Toolseeker, I feel your pain about SW. If I didn't have one of the few awesome SW stores, I would certainly consider a move. Lord knows they've never given me (small contractor) much of a price break on paint. I do get good pricing on SuperPaint and Cashmere but that's bout it, and that took me many years of coaxing and begging. BM would be a consideration for me, but, at this stage of my painting life, change might not be so good unless I would get unbelievable contractor pricing.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I would switch to BM in a heartbeat, if it was not 20 miles away. PPG works great for me, good paint, good pricing. WAY better price than SW


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm not trying to get anyone to switch. And like Shu I have a good SW store I have dealt with for years. I just feel that this is a slap in the face to contractors. For years I have told people that my paint was better than box store paint because I really felt it was. How can I do that now when I feel it's the same paint just re-labeled.

I have used most paints out there, some good, some not so good, But I kept going back to SW because I knew what to expect from what paint line because I was familiar with it. I like Porter/PPG and I like Ben Moore, Pratt and Lambert is another good paint although hard to find in my area. I'm just not familiar with some of their lines. But I think that's going to change.

This is just my opinions. Really don't know why it bugs me so much, they did the same thing with Purdy brushes. Can be bought at the box store cheaper than at SW store.


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## ZTMAN (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't understand the problem. What's the difference if a homeowner goes in to a big box store or sw store to buy paint. People that hire a professional painter are paying him or her to paint, not buy paint.
Kind of like Titleist golf balls. They used to only be available at pro shops. Not you can purchase them in most sporting good stores. Companies want to expand market share


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

What I don't understand about SW is the apparent devotion to the Homeowner like Toolseeker said. In my thinking, the contractors across the country surely buy more paint than the homeowners, or, then again, maybe not. The guy that buys 5,000 gallons a year is surely worth more to SW than the guy buying 10 gallons one time to paint his house?


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Gymschu said:


> What I don't understand about SW is the apparent devotion to the Homeowner like Toolseeker said. In my thinking, the contractors across the country surely buy more paint than the homeowners, or, then again, maybe not. The guy that buys 5,000 gallons a year is surely worth more to SW than the guy buying 10 gallons one time to paint his house?


 Commercial sales account for over 70% of the paint sold in the US. Of course some HD employees in NC would dispute that.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

My primary source for paint is Sherwin Williams. I also have an account at Benjamin Moore, but I don't use it as much. (Nothing against BM, it's just that I feel it's better to get more familiar with 1 paint line, than spread myself too thin, pun intended). I get 5% at Home Depot and Lowe's. I like Home Depot more than Lowe's, so I sometimes buy Behr, and very rarely Valspar. I couldn't really tell you what my discount is at SW or BM, but let's say it's about 25-30% average.

I understand your point about the SW manager, from his point of view. But I don't even know who my SW store managers are, so I'm not sure why I'd care too much about them him myself.

I wouldn't really call myself a "loyal" SW customer, even though that's where I get most of my paint. And I've never tried to tell customers that SW is the best. I try to get a feel for what their biases are, and work with that. I feel that there are good enough products at SW, BM, or HD that I can get a product that I'm comfortable with and results they'll be happy with. Some customers already know they want Cashmere, or Duration, or Aura. Some customers who start out with "Well, I know that BM is the best...." - I have to have a longer conversation with, because I know they heard that on some blog somewhere.

I've had some problems with SW in the past. To name them:
- inconsistent discounts/pricing
- changing my discount level without telling me
- having to ask for pricing information (these 3 things mean I never know exactly how much my paint costs are going to be, month to month)
- bad paint matching in the past (has improved in the last couple years as they have relied more on computer matching, not people)
- some dumb associates who can't answer questions about products
- lack of some products in some stores
- one case of just plain bad finish from a Color Accent paint that was never resolved or explained
- high cost of some paints that I don't use a lot of

If it weren't for the fact that SuperPaint has performed so well for me as my bread and butter wall paint over the past decade or two, I probably wouldn't even use SW much. If I had a truly expert sales rep from SW who talked to me and really helped me solve problems, I'd probably feel different. To be honest, I bump into the Behr rep at my local HD from time to time, and he seems to know more about paint than the people I talk to at SW. Granted, the paint counter people range from completely clueless to barely competent, so they're of no use to me either.

So even though I plan to keep them as my main supplier for now, I really don't care how they run their business, because they don't really seem to care a whole lot about me (I don't use 5,000 gals/yr, but still....) If those paints are available at Lowes, it's probably better for me anyway, because then I don't have to make 2 stops for my various job supplies.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> It (the Ovation) was $34 a gallon.


I am going to have to look into this. If exterior semi-gloss is $34, then wouldn't interior flat be less than $30? If this is true, and if toolseeker is right that this is SuperPaint, then Lowes might have a new customer. As I said in my other post, I don't know how much I pay for SuperPaint from month to month, but I think it's always $30+, let's say $32. If I can get Ovation/SuperPaint for $28, then game on.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> My primary source for paint is Sherwin Williams. I also have an account at Benjamin Moore, but I don't use it as much. (Nothing against BM, it's just that I feel it's better to get more familiar with 1 paint line, than spread myself too thin, pun intended). I get 5% at Home Depot and Lowe's. I like Home Depot more than Lowe's, so I sometimes buy Behr, and very rarely Valspar. I couldn't really tell you what my discount is at SW or BM, but let's say it's about 25-30% average.
> 
> I understand your point about the SW manager, from his point of view. But I don't even know who my SW store managers are, so I'm not sure why I'd care too much about them him myself.
> 
> ...


 The retail prices are lower at Lowe's, but it's hard to tell what kind of discount SW can give you on Ovation. It seems their margins are pretty tight already.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> What I don't understand about SW is the apparent devotion to the Homeowner like Toolseeker said. In my thinking, the contractors across the country surely buy more paint than the homeowners


Maybe if I were a big time paint contractor, I'd have a different relationship with SW. Maybe there are super experts there who only have time for the big contractors, so I never see them. But for the little guy like me, SW has just shown me a completely inconsistent mish-mash of service and price. That's why I have no particular loyalty.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> they did the same thing with Purdy brushes. Can be bought at the box store cheaper than at SW store.


That is kind of funny. I basically never buy anything but paint at SW. Have never bought a brush there. (I prefer Wooster brushes anyway, and have to get more esoteric brushes like Picasso online anyway.) The only 2 things I buy at SW are these collapsible trash cans they sell, and these caulk guns I don't find anywhere else locally, that actually don't drip.

I guess you can add that to the list of reasons I'm not too loyal to SW - they can't even sell me a good brush or rolling supplies at a decent price.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/arc...cts/catalog/collapsible-trash-can-39-gallons/

http://www.thepaintstore.com/Dripless_ETS_2000_Contractor_Grade_Caulk_Gun_p/ets2000.htm


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm sure a lot of this came about because of the HGTV connection. As far as it being a slap in the face of contractors, you gotta kind of look at it SW's way. Quite a few contractors will bail on SW over price, so what were they supposed to do? They need to put their product in more outlets to stay competitive overall. And they have to keep with what PPG has been doing with the box stores.(Glidden at HD and walmart, Pittsburgh at Menard's). SW burned their bridge with HD back in the late 80's and early 90's, they recently lost the Walmart business to PPG, so this was their best option as far as the box stores go. They have the Dutchboy line, but I'm sure HGTV was having none of that. And they would rather keep P&L as a dealer exclusive line, which is one area that PPG has failed. PPG has no dealer exclusive product line. This is the wave of the future, as paint companies have come to realize that they need to put a more "Premium" name brand in the box stores. But long term, it will slowly cause the separate paint store, whether independent or company owned, to disappear. But it doesn't seem to bother most consumers that they are slowly losing those choices and the expertise that traditionally went with them. I see a future of increasingly hyped up product performance and more product failures.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Maybe if I were a big time paint contractor, I'd have a different relationship with SW. Maybe there are super experts there who only have time for the big contractors, so I never see them. But for the little guy like me, SW has just shown me a completely inconsistent mish-mash of service and price. That's why I have no particular loyalty.


 Mish-mash is a good term for it. Very inconsistent depending on where you are in the US.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> The retail prices are lower at Lowe's, but it's hard to tell what kind of discount SW can give you on Ovation.


Oh, I was confused. I had the impression Ovation was only sold at Lowes, I didn't understand they had it at SW too.

All this talk about suppliers got me thinking. There's a PPG store very close to me house. It must be fairly new. It's actually called a Glidden store, but they just answered the phone "PPG". They said PPG bought Glidden. I'm going to go over there sometime and look into their line, and see what sort of pricing I can get. See if they treat me decently :huh:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

klaatu said:


> I'm sure a lot of this came about because of the HGTV connection.


I have no doubt of that. A lot of customers I talk to get a lot of their ideas from DIY TV shows (for better or worse - at least they are trying to learn.)


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Alright, I just called my local SW, and here is what they (she) told me.

She says Ovation is the new version of their discontinued HGTV line. They do sell Ovation at SW. She had never heard of Showcase.

She said Ovation is basically the lowest level of quality they sell. I asked if she could equate it to something I would be familiar with, in either the retail or contractor lines. She said it would be equivalent to ProMar 400. I asked her "If it's was the lowest line, wouldn't it be more like ProMar 700? She was not familiar with ProMar 700.

By the way, if I had relayed this as a story from Home Depot, I think a bunch of people would be shouting "See! Home Depot sux!"

OK, maybe I just got a noob at the phone. But still, it doesn't particularly endear me to SW. I'm not sure how much you can take from the above conversation, but I guess I will talk to someone else next time I'm in the store. Or I could just try Ovation myself. (I do have a rental property job coming up..... I think owners would appreciate a paint which can be purchased at either Sherwin Williams or Lowes, whichever is more convenient for them or the contractor, for future maintenance.)


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Oh, I was confused. I had the impression Ovation was only sold at Lowes, I didn't understand they had it at SW too.
> 
> All this talk about suppliers got me thinking. There's a PPG store very close to me house. It must be fairly new. It's actually called a Glidden store, but they just answered the phone "PPG". They said PPG bought Glidden. I'm going to go over there sometime and look into their line, and see what sort of pricing I can get. See if they treat me decently :huh:


 Yeah the HGTV branded Ovation is available at SW as well as Lowe's.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

OK, called a different store. She told me Ovation was sold at the store, Showcase was only at Lowes. She said HGTV was still sold, not discontinued. She said based on the paints I was familiar with, Ovation would be lesser quality than SuperPaint or Duration, maybe somewhere in between ProMar 200 and ProMar 400, and that my price on it would be $27. (If this is sold at Lowes, then I'm assuming my price and Lowes price are going to be about the same.)

If all that is true, I don't think toolseeker has a lot to worry about. Nothing much has changed, and he can still steer customers toward higher quality SW paints than these.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Alright, I just called my local SW, and here is what they (she) told me.
> 
> She says Ovation is the new version of their discontinued HGTV line. They do sell Ovation at SW. She had never heard of Showcase.
> 
> ...


 This is on their website. I think this means it is available from SW as it lists Sw pricing. http://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/hgtv-home-by-sherwin-williams/paints-and-supplies/


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> Alright, I just called my local SW, and here is what they (she) told me.
> 
> She says Ovation is the new version of their discontinued HGTV line. They do sell Ovation at SW. She had never heard of Showcase.
> 
> ...


 She is telling you what she has been told. Whether it is true or not we will never know. I don't think SW is going to be very willing to actually tell people it is Superpaint at a lower retail price. Trying it is the best way to tell.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> OK, called a different store. She told me Ovation was sold at the store, Showcase was only at Lowes. She said HGTV was still sold, not discontinued. She said based on the paints I was familiar with, Ovation would be lesser quality than SuperPaint or Duration, maybe somewhere in between ProMar 200 and ProMar 400, and that my price on it would be $27. (If this is sold at Lowes, then I'm assuming my price and Lowes price are going to be about the same.)
> 
> If all that is true, I don't think toolseeker has a lot to worry about. Nothing much has changed, and he can still steer customers toward higher quality SW paints than these.


 The flat at Lowe's in my area is going for $26.59 retail.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

HDTV paint (which is re-labeled pro mar) is still available. Lowe's just put in a large display so I don't think it's going anywhere soon. If you go to the website and look at the tech sheets on super and ovation they are the same including the colorants.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm not sure where you found the tech sheets online for Ovation, because I couldn't find them. I called SW tech support, and she sent me to paintdocs.com, where I found it.

And you're right - they might be the same. The film thickness specs on Ovation are kind of messed up, but aside from that, the volume solids are 43%, weight per gallon is 12.1 lbs vs. 12.05 (could be just more precise measuring with the newer sheet). Ovation claims it has ScrubSure and SmoothCoverage, whatever the hell that is. Both claim Paint & Primer. For tinting strength, SuperPaint says "125%, 100%, 125%" while Ovation just says "SherColor" for each.

That is all for Flat. For Semi-Gloss, the numbers aren't exact matches, but only off by a tiny bit - accountable by different measuring and rounding error.

Impressive specs for $27 - a possible winner.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

As I said don't know why this is bothering me so much, maybe just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. Like that store Jeff called that person should not have been allowed to answer a telephone until they were at least familiar with the paint lines available. Showcase is new I might let that go, but, ProMar 700 has been around for many years. Is it a good paint, not in my opinion, but it is used quite a bit in new construction. Builders use it because it is really cheap and in new construction they want cheap paint because they fell a new buyer will shortly want their own colors. Plus the statement about HDTV.

Jeff you said you were going to try the ovation and Schu said he had some please after you try it tell us if you don't think it's a lot better than ProMar 400.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> I'm not sure where you found the tech sheets online for Ovation, because I couldn't find them. I called SW tech support, and she sent me to paintdocs.com, where I found it.
> 
> And you're right - they might be the same. The film thickness specs on Ovation are kind of messed up, but aside from that, the volume solids are 43%, weight per gallon is 12.1 lbs vs. 12.05 (could be just more precise measuring with the newer sheet). Ovation claims it has ScrubSure and SmoothCoverage, whatever the hell that is. Both claim Paint & Primer. For tinting strength, SuperPaint says "125%, 100%, 125%" while Ovation just says "SherColor" for each.
> 
> ...


 It is a little odd that the data sheets aren't on SW's website. Maybe they just haven't updated it yet.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> So even though I plan to keep them as my main supplier for now, I really don't care how they run their business, because they don't really seem to care a whole lot about me (I don't use 5,000 gals/yr, but still....) If those paints are available at Lowes, it's probably better for me anyway, because then I don't have to make 2 stops for my various job supplies.


This is the crux of it.

It's economics. Don't take it personally. They have a duty to shareholders to maximize profit; if they think they can do that by making contracts with big box stores for their decent paints, and that it won't hurt their brand significantly, they will.

If the big box stores are now carrying a good paint, that's good for everybody in the world except in some instances a painter. (OK, maybe it's worse for anybody who relies on that to expect the HD guy to know about painting, I suppose.) 

It's not designed to hurt a painter, but it makes one advertising carrot a bit wrong, so that advertising has to be changed--your paint is still better than Behr and Glidden brands, for example, or better than Home Depot paint.

Homeowners are paying for time and expertise. They should get that without regard to whether they bring a part or buy an SW product at a big box store, even if you think SW shouldn't be selling there. You shouldn't penalize people for trying to save money unless they're trying to do it with an insufficient product.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Tom738 said:


> Don't take it personally.


I don't. It's business. But I have to think about how _I _want to spend my day doing business.

When I ask for advice from my SW store, and they tell me Ovation is about like ProMar 400, and not like SuperPaint, and I look at the spec sheet and see that's obviously not true, it really irritates me. If I can't get straight answers from them, then why do I need them? Obviously they don't want me buying Ovation from them. If they did, they wouldn't give me a higher price than I can buy it at Lowes. So I get that. They want me buying SuperPaint and ProClassic by the truckload, without asking questions.

But from my point of view, I can find people who don't know what they're talking about for a few cents less at Lowes, so I might as well go there, while I'm picking up my trim and drywall and tile and thinset, not to mention tray liners and roller covers.

So technically I'm still buying SW paint, and the shareholders are fine with that. But I don't think they'd be fine with me being in Lowes more and SW less, since I'm going to be buying primer and other paints from Lowes more often now.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

klaatu said:


> I'm sure a lot of this came about because of the HGTV connection. As far as it being a slap in the face of contractors, you gotta kind of look at it SW's way. Quite a few contractors will bail on SW over price, so what were they supposed to do? They need to put their product in more outlets to stay competitive overall. And they have to keep with what PPG has been doing with the box stores.(Glidden at HD and walmart, Pittsburgh at Menard's). SW burned their bridge with HD back in the late 80's and early 90's, they recently lost the Walmart business to PPG, so this was their best option as far as the box stores go. They have the Dutchboy line, but I'm sure HGTV was having none of that. And they would rather keep P&L as a dealer exclusive line, which is one area that PPG has failed. PPG has no dealer exclusive product line. This is the wave of the future, as paint companies have come to realize that they need to put a more "Premium" name brand in the box stores. But long term, it will slowly cause the separate paint store, whether independent or company owned, to disappear. But it doesn't seem to bother most consumers that they are slowly losing those choices and the expertise that traditionally went with them. I see a future of increasingly hyped up product performance and more product failures.


As far more outlets I live in the fairly small area around Ocala Fl. and I would guess there are between 15 and 20 SW stores just in this area.

Most contractors I know who have left SW has been over pricing not over 
prices. I know a little confusing.

What do you mean PPG doesn't have a dealer exclusive line? They have Manor Hall, Acri shield, and Breakthrough, just to name a few.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Don't confuse WalMart Paint with a brand, no matter who makes it, it is made to WalMart specs, to be sold at Walmart Prices, at Walmart stores.

And to be honest I was led to believe that the Ovation and Showcase would only be sold at Lowe's. To find out it's being sold in the stores is a surprise to me. Price wise I wonder how that will work.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> As far more outlets I live in the fairly small area around Ocala Fl. and I would guess there are between 15 and 20 SW stores just in this area.
> 
> Most contractors I know who have left SW has been over pricing not over
> prices. I know a little confusing.
> ...


 Those products are sold to dealers true, but they can and will sell them through their company stores. They are not exclusive to dealers. You can go to a glidden store fpr example and they can order any PPG product, except what they sell to Menard's. And they can sell them to painters far below the cost they give to dealers. Believe me, I almost got caught with this. I can break my butt selling a PPG line to a contractor and they can go into any PPG company store and buy it for what I would pay for it. Doesn't matter what brand it is. I had the purchase agreement in my hand to become a Pittsburgh/porter dealer and if i hadn't questioned this I would have been screwed. They said they would give me a verbal agreement not to do it, but after nine years of them not being able to keep their own stores from cutting prices on each other I know better. Verbal agreements don't mean crap in the real business world. The fact that they refused to put it in writing tells everything.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> Most contractors I know who have left SW has been over pricing not over prices. I know a little confusing.


Yes I think I know exactly what you mean.



ToolSeeker said:


> What do you mean PPG doesn't have a dealer exclusive line? They have Manor Hall, Acri shield, and Breakthrough, just to name a few.


Was it you that was recommending Breakthrough in the other thread? I'd like to try it. Even more reason to check out my local PPG.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> And to be honest I was led to believe that the Ovation and Showcase would only be sold at Lowe's. To find out it's being sold in the stores is a surprise to me. Price wise I wonder how that will work.


Apparently it's designed to send some contractors to Lowes, since Lowes retail is 40 cents less than my SW business discount! :laughing: (Showcase apparently exclusive to Lowes).


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

klaatu said:


> Those products are sold to dealers true, but they can and will sell them through their company stores. They are not exclusive to dealers. You can go to a glidden store fpr example and they can order any PPG product, except what they sell to Menard's. And they can sell them to painters far below the cost they give to dealers. Believe me, I almost got caught with this. I can break my butt selling a PPG line to a contractor and they can go into any PPG company store and buy it for what I would pay for it. Doesn't matter what brand it is. I had the purchase agreement in my hand to become a Pittsburgh/porter dealer and if i hadn't questioned this I would have been screwed. They said they would give me a verbal agreement not to do it, but after nine years of them not being able to keep their own stores from cutting prices on each other I know better. Verbal agreements don't mean crap in the real business world. The fact that they refused to put it in writing tells everything.


Sorry, I guess I read your other post wrong. I was not aware of this, I have several Porter stores near me but the closest Glidden store would be Orlando (over 100 miles) Thanks for the info. I think that would hiss me off too. Wouldn't it be nice if these chains were set up like McDonalds. If you buy a Big Mac in Ohio and then go to Kansas and buy one the price is the same.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> Yes I think I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> Was it you that was recommending Breakthrough in the other thread? I'd like to try it. Even more reason to check out my local PPG.


I don't think it was me as I haven't tried it yet. If you go over to Paint Talk and read Repaint Florida's thread on painting cabinets it will make you want to try it.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> Sorry, I guess I read your other post wrong. I was not aware of this, I have several Porter stores near me but the closest Glidden store would be Orlando (over 100 miles) Thanks for the info. I think that would hiss me off too. Wouldn't it be nice if these chains were set up like McDonalds. If you buy a Big Mac in Ohio and then go to Kansas and buy one the price is the same.


 Yeah. They refused to give me any kind of price protection, unlike the vendors that I carry. It's unfortunate, because PPG has some pretty good products at pretty reasonable prices. Porter Silken Touch for example. I also stained my deck with Sunproof Semitransparent 8 years ago and have only had to re-coat once.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Does anyone know what percentage of the stores are franchised vs company owned?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Yes I think I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> Was it you that was recommending Breakthrough in the other thread? I'd like to try it. Even more reason to check out my local PPG.



Give it a try Jeff, it's some pretty amazing stuff. I got a gallon a few weeks ago to demo and have tried it on several different things. It's bonding capability and film hardness are unparalleled. It's hard as a rock and will sand to powder in a couple hours or less. Almost unbelievable really. 

I tried it on one of those slick laminate cabinets that I've never been able to get anything to bond too except shellac, and it stuck like chuck. 

Application is tricky though. It's thin and ultra fast drying. It Can level out really well, and as a consequence it's prone to micro run if you get it on uneven at all. I don't have it totally figured out yet, but seeing some smooth results with a short nap microfiber. It too fast drying to back brush it like you can Advance or other paints, for me it is anyway. 

One drawback is it doesn't come in semi gloss. Satin and gloss only. The gloss is only about 10 units shinier than Advance semi though, so it might pass as a semi in some cases. The satin is pretty dull. 

It's rated for floors with forklift traffic, so it must be some tough stuff. I'm thinking of trying it on a full set of cabinets next week.


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## Premium08 (Jul 28, 2014)

SW sells a lot of other coatings that cost way more than house paint, so I wouldn't think the store owners would be to worried.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

kwikfishron said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of the stores are franchised vs company owned?


No I really don't know.


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## KStatefan (Jan 23, 2012)

kwikfishron said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of the stores are franchised vs company owned?


I would be mad if I was a franchise owner.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

kwikfishron said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of the stores are franchised vs company owned?


 ALL Sherwin Williams stores are corporately owned. They DO NOT have franchises. All SW store employees are full SW paid employees. This has always been this way and I have heard this question before. I really don't know were it comes from. And I questioned my Pratt & Lambert rep about this and he asked his jogging buddy who happens to be the CEO of Sherwin Williams and he confirmed it. Now, in Mexico and Canada, there are some independent paint stores that are grandfathered to sell SW. Other then that, in the US they are all corporate stores and employees.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

If you were a manufacturer wouldn't you want as many avenues as possible for sales?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

BREAKING NEWS--The grades are in.....at least on the Ovation EXTERIOR. I'm giving it a "D". Applying white on white aluminum and not getting good coverage with two coats. At first I thought it was similar to SW's A-100, but it is well below that in quality. Disappointed but not surprised.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Gymschu said:


> BREAKING NEWS--The grades are in.....at least on the Ovation EXTERIOR. I'm giving it a "D". Applying white on white aluminum and not getting good coverage with two coats. At first I thought it was similar to SW's A-100, but it is well below that in quality. Disappointed but not surprised.


 WHAAAT? Please excuse my sarcasm. And A-100 is more like a-50.


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## MinnesotaSteve (Apr 7, 2013)

I just thought I'd chime in here... realize this thread is a month old but it was interesting. 

But it reminded me of an article I read last year...

http://fortune.com/2014/09/17/warren-buffett-benjamin-moore/

When Buffet bought Benjamin Moore back in 2000 he promised the dealers he wasn't going to sell the paint through the big box stores, keeping it as a premium brand. Somewhere around 2012 the CEO of BM made a deal with Lowes.... and when Buffet found out he had the CEO fired.

Obviously Sherwin Williams is in a different position.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

ToolSeeker said:


> As I said don't know why this is bothering me so much, maybe just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. Like that store Jeff called that person should not have been allowed to answer a telephone until they were at least familiar with the paint lines available. Showcase is new I might let that go, but, ProMar 700 has been around for many years. Is it a good paint, not in my opinion, but it is used quite a bit in new construction. Builders use it because it is really cheap and in new construction they want cheap paint because they fell a new buyer will shortly want their own colors. Plus the statement about HDTV.
> 
> Jeff you said you were going to try the ovation and Schu said he had some please after you try it tell us if you don't think it's a lot better than ProMar 400.


I have put on about 15 gallons of Ovation in the last month. It goes on smooth and covers really good. Much better paint than PM 400. Flat is around $27 and eggshell around $30 at Lowe's where I buy mine.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

MinnesotaSteve said:


> I just thought I'd chime in here... realize this thread is a month old but it was interesting.
> 
> But it reminded me of an article I read last year...
> 
> ...


 Yeah. Sw is still a separate company. The CEO that made this decision won't fire himself.lol.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Red Dog said:


> I have put on about 15 gallons of Ovation in the last month. It goes on smooth and covers really good. Much better paint than PM 400. Flat is around $27 and eggshell around $30 at Lowe's where I buy mine.


Ovation is very obviously Superpaint re-labeled. I have a side by side drawdown I did with them both and there is absolutely no visible difference between the two using a 10x magnification. No texture difference, no color difference in the pastel/white base, no difference in hide, nothing. In fact using 10x magnification there is no visible dividing line between the two, which is virtually impossible if there is even the slightest difference in their chemical make-up. If you look at their product data sheets and their MSDS sheets, they are identical. In fact you could put the Ovation product data sheet on a transparent sheet and lay it on top of the Superpaint data sheet and the only difference is the names.

Anyone at SW that tells you differently is just trying to protect their butts.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

I tried some of the HGTV Showcase the other day. Small interior where the home owner had bought the paint. They got all Valspar Signature except one color that they got in the Showcase for some reason. 

Compared to the Valspar it was absolutely terrible. Very thin, and didn't cover worth crap. Was also impossible to keep a wet edge even on small walls. It did that thing where it gums up when you roll over the cut even after a less than a minute. 

Complete crap. They ended up going back and having it matched in the Valspar to finish. Was a accent wall.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

sounds like the "showcase" did not show too well:laughing:


does not surprise me at all


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Whew! I was starting to wonder about my sanity. Glad, (well not glad for you JMays) that someone else had a struggle with the "new" paint at Lowe's. I'm steering clear of it for now.


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## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

I haven't used the Showcase yet and don't think I want to after reading Jmays' review. Same with the exterior Ovation. The interior Ovation is however a good paint IMO and I will continue to use it.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Red Dog said:


> I haven't used the Showcase yet and don't think I want to after reading Jmays' review. Same with the exterior Ovation. The interior Ovation is however a good paint IMO and I will continue to use it.


Yeah it is a pretty good paint, especially in it's price range. Fairly bright white and good coverage. No application issues that I've noticed. This is another reason it can't possibly be the Promar 200 that all the SW people say it is.

Just remember to save yourself a buck a gallon and buy it at Lowe's.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

ToolSeeker said:


> A line called Ovation, which from everything I can read is re-labeled SuperPaint, and Showcase which seems to be re-labeled ProMar 200.


By the way, when I originally read this, I hadn't seen the paints yet. I just assumed you meant the Ovation is the better paint. At least, I certainly consider SuperPaint to be better than ProMar 200. Maybe you don't. But in the stores, the Showcase is the more expensive, and presumably better, paint.

With respect to jmays' experience, I couldn't say what it means.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

jeffnc said:


> By the way, when I originally read this, I hadn't seen the paints yet. I just assumed you meant the Ovation is the better paint. At least, I certainly consider SuperPaint to be better than ProMar 200. Maybe you don't. But in the stores, the Showcase is the more expensive, and presumably better, paint.
> 
> With respect to jmays' experience, I couldn't say what it means.


my gut feeling is that Showcase is Durations. Just a hunch though because I haven't done my hillbilly lab testing on it yet. I can't afford to buy Durations to test it!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

You mean Duration? That doesn't seem to jibe with jmays' comment that it's complete crap.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> By the way, when I originally read this, I hadn't seen the paints yet. I just assumed you meant the Ovation is the better paint. At least, I certainly consider SuperPaint to be better than ProMar 200. Maybe you don't. But in the stores, the Showcase is the more expensive, and presumably better, paint.
> 
> With respect to jmays' experience, I couldn't say what it means.



Showcase is the higher line? Interesting. 
To be fair the color was a medium yellow that I wouldn't expect stellar coverage in with any paint. But having the Signature right beside it to compare, the Showcase was certainly inferior and much thinner.

Could have been an anomy I guess, or that certain base or something. I was actually surprised at how bad it was.


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