# Arc Fault breakers (warning)



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

You can make a splice inside the panel. You can extend the neutral to the bar.



Speedy Petey said:


> Splicing in a panel in a case like this is perfectly fine. IMO it is a better job than putting several splice boxes above the panel and extending the whole branch circuit because one wire was too short.


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## borninpa (Jan 15, 2008)

*extend white wire?*

Can't you just extend the white wire with a pigtail and wire connector to make it reach?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

What you're doing is fine and the 2008 code has extended afci's to many more rooms of the dwelling. You need to make sure the bedrooms are not on multiwire circuits or your afci will not hold and will trip out. 

Personally I would have not bothered worrying about it. First and foremost I would want a complete understanding of the wiring so I wouldn't create little gremlins by adding afci protection.

A splice in a wirenut is fine.


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## Potomac101 (Dec 18, 2007)

The panel box is laid out with the neutral/ground bar on the left. In the middle are two columns of beakers. The breakers that I'm trying to replace are in the right-hand column about mid-way.

Sounds like the splice is the best bet - for some reason I had thought that this wasn't considered a good idea. Thanks for the help.
potomac101


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## borninpa (Jan 15, 2008)

*Can you add another ground bar?*

Perhaps you can add another ground bar on the right side?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

borninpa said:


> Perhaps you can add another ground bar on the right side?


That won't help for the neutrals though.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> That won't help for the neutrals though.


Can't they land on the same bar in the main panel?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Neutrals cannot land on an added ground bar. Only grounding conductors can.

The main factory installed bars are for both grounds and neutrals in a main panel.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

arichard21 said:


> You can make a splice inside the panel.


Ok, someone please set me straight. I was always told that you cannot splice inside a breaker panel. In fact, I was told that when retrofitting a dated fuse or breaker panel, often the existing wiring will be short. The way I was taught to handle it is to install a wireway/junction box where the existing pipes connected to the old panel and make the splices therein to lengthen the circuits sufficiently to reach the new panel/breakers.

HELP!


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## goose134 (Nov 4, 2007)

Jimmy, technically speaking you can splice in a panel. That said, the only reason to do this in a new installation would be a shunt trip breaker or something like this post is talking about. I have to look again at Chicago book for this one. 

As to the OP, you do not need to keep updating your existing installation to meet current electrical code. Unless you are remodeling to the standards that would require you to do so.. AFCI breakers are obscenely expensive and just because 2008 says you've got to have them doesn't necessarily mean that your house does. So who says anyway?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

This has been discussed NUMEROUS times and I have not heard of a place that forbids extending old wires to reach breakers.

Big Jim, that scenario IMO is CRAZY! Cut into pipe runs and add j-boxes??? Just to extend existing wires in a panel???
If this is so then it is just more crazy Chicago nonsense!  

Sorry guys. It's just how I feel.


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## Potomac101 (Dec 18, 2007)

goose134 said:


> As to the OP, you do not need to keep updating your existing installation to meet current electrical code. Unless you are remodeling to the standards that would require you to do so.. AFCI breakers are obscenely expensive and just because 2008 says you've got to have them doesn't necessarily mean that your house does.


My reasoning went something like - Whoever is writing the code knows more than I do (this is a large group) and thinks that AFCI breakers improve home safety - enough to make it law. If these breakers prevent a house fire (or give me a little peace of mind), they are worth the extra cost.

By the way - there's no market in counterfeit AFCI breakers is there? I got these on eBay (new-in-box) at a pretty reasonable price.

potomac101


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## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Potomac101 said:


> My reasoning went something like - Whoever is writing the code knows more than I do (this is a large group) and thinks that AFCI breakers improve home safety - enough to make it law. If these breakers prevent a house fire (or give me a little peace of mind), they are worth the extra cost.
> 
> By the way - there's no market in counterfeit AFCI breakers is there? I got these on eBay (new-in-box) at a pretty reasonable price.
> 
> potomac101


 
I actually agree with you, if there is a chance that it will make things safer, well it's pretty cheap insurance IMO.



Regarding a splice in a box, look at it this way. Essentially, a panel is a huge junction box. Sometimes (not all) in older houses when new service is added and is placed in a different location the old box will be used as a big jbox to extend all the wires. I have seen it done nice and neatly, and seen it done where it was pretty scary.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

I haven't had any trouble with my service... Plenty of room for expansion...


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jerryh3 said:


> I haven't had any trouble with my service... Plenty of room for expansion...


Wow, got enough wires under one screw? Its also a violation by the way.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> This has been discussed NUMEROUS times and I have not heard of a place that forbids extending old wires to reach breakers.
> 
> Big Jim, that scenario IMO is CRAZY! Cut into pipe runs and add j-boxes??? Just to extend existing wires in a panel???


I had no idea that it had been discussed previously.

I don't disagree that it seems crazy and that's why I was asking.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> I haven't had any trouble with my service... Plenty of room for expansion...





chris75 said:


> Wow, got enough wires under one screw? Its also a violation by the way.


 
Yes, it is. Read here: http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=16542


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

CowboyAndy said:


> Yes, it is. Read here: http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=16542


I hope you all realize that post what just a joke. The picture came from a home inspector's forum of how not to wire grounds and nuetrals.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

jerryh3 said:


> I hope you all realize that post what just a joke. The picture came from a home inspector's forum of how not to wire grounds and nuetrals.


The problem is, it is not a joke. I find that much more than I would like too. The worst part is it passed inspection!


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## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Jerry, I am the absolute worst at understanding sarcasm in print... perhaps try using this :wink: or :001_tongue: or :icon_rolleyes: to show sarcasm. I hope I am not out of line by saying that.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

My joke would have been to tell him to see if any of those whites were shared neutrals from an unsplit multiwire and he should not turn the power off and remove them one at a time till he saw smoke coming from his new big screen......


Actually I caught the joke....and I admit I did have to chuckle


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> My joke would have been to tell him to see if any of those whites were shared neutrals from an unsplit multiwire and he should not turn the power off and remove them one at a time till he saw smoke coming from his new big screen......
> 
> 
> Actually I caught the joke....and I admit I did have to chuckle


Speaking of shared neutrals. I just finished helping my brother re-wire his entire house after a total gut. There was a section of the house kinda far from the main panel that had two receptacle circuits. I ran a 12/3 MWBC to a j-box(in basement, accessible) and split off that with 12/2 to the two independent circuits. I used a two-pole 20A breaker for the 12/3. Do the receptacles need to be pigtailed to guard against an open neutral? Or is there no danger since only 12/2 is used for the two independent circuits?


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> My joke would have been to tell him to see if any of those whites were shared neutrals from an unsplit multiwire and he should not turn the power off and remove them one at a time till he saw smoke coming from his new big screen......
> 
> 
> Actually I caught the joke....and I admit I did have to chuckle


I hope not. The big screen is on it's own circuit with a power conditioner.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

arichard21 said:


> Jerry, I am the absolute worst at understanding sarcasm in print... perhaps try using this :wink: or :001_tongue: or :icon_rolleyes: to show sarcasm. I hope I am not out of line by saying that.


Point taken. I thought it was so over the top it could only be taken as sarcasm.:thumbup:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> Speaking of shared neutrals. I just finished helping my brother re-wire his entire house after a total gut. There was a section of the house kinda far from the main panel that had two receptacle circuits. I ran a 12/3 MWBC to a j-box(in basement, accessible) and split off that with 12/2 to the two independent circuits. I used a two-pole 20A breaker for the 12/3. Do the receptacles need to be pigtailed to guard against an open neutral? Or is there no danger since only 12/2 is used for the two independent circuits?


You don't have to pigtail the receptacles, but it is a good practice to do so anyhow, that way you don't rely on the device to complete the circuit.

You should also know that some places have adopted the 2008 NEC, and MWBC won't work on the AFCI breakers that are required. A bunch of bunk if you ask me, but if it is required, it is required.

InPhase277


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

jerryh3 said:


> Point taken. I thought it was so over the top it could only be taken as sarcasm.:thumbup:


Over the top on a DIY site? I dont think so...


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> You don't have to pigtail the receptacles, but it is a good practice to do so anyhow, that way you don't rely on the device to complete the circuit.
> 
> You should also know that some places have adopted the 2008 NEC, and MWBC won't work on the AFCI breakers that are required. A bunch of bunk if you ask me, but if it is required, it is required.
> 
> InPhase277


No AFCI's. These were circuits for a living room and a dining room. Do you think 12/2/2 will become more popular for running long runs to bedrooms? Also, I was in HD the other day and noticed a display saying that all receptacles are required to be tamper resistant with 2008 NEC. Have you run into this yet?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

InPhase277 said:


> .....and MWBC won't work on the AFCI breakers that are required.


Just to clarify this myth, again.

AFCIs WILL work with MWBC's. You just need to use a two-pole AFCI breaker. YES, a few of them are available, and obviously more will follow. 
YES, they are expensive, but not really any more than two single poles.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Just to clarify this myth, again.
> 
> AFCIs WILL work with MWBC's. You just need to use a two-pole AFCI breaker. YES, a few of them are available, and obviously more will follow.
> YES, they are expensive, but not really any more than two single poles.


Really? Hadn't heard this, but then again, I'm not a resi guy per se... Why do they make 12-2-2 if you can share the neutral?

InPhase277


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> No AFCI's. These were circuits for a living room and a dining room. Do you think 12/2/2 will become more popular for running long runs to bedrooms? Also, I was in HD the other day and noticed a display saying that all receptacles are required to be tamper resistant with 2008 NEC. Have you run into this yet?


I personally have not had to face this problem. Any residential type work I do is in Alabama, and in this particular area there is no adopted code. I will continue to use the standards of the 05 until such time the local authorities decide to open a building dept. that enforces the 08 code. As far as circuit location, the 08 code specifies all locations other than those already protected by GFCIs to be AFCI protected.

According to Speedy Pete, MWBCs will work with AFCIs, though I have heard different and haven't verified that yet.

InPhase277


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

For one example. If you have a 3-way switch with a feed at one end and a switch leg on the other, and you need that feed at both boxes, the 1x/2/2 cable can carry the two travelers with the neutral, and also a constant hot, between the boxes.

I love 1x/2/2 (or 1x/4) cable. It is a REAL time, money and work saver.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

InPhase277 said:


> According to Speedy Pete, MWBCs will work with AFCIs, though I have heard different and haven't verified that yet.


I do know for fact that a "BR series" two-pole AFCI is available.
http://electricalsupplies4less.stores.yahoo.net/tybrarcfacii.html


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> For one example. If you have a 3-way switch with a feed at one end and a switch leg on the other, and you need that feed at both boxes, the 1x/2/2 cable can carry the two travelers with the neutral, and also a constant hot, between the boxes.
> 
> I love 1x/2/2 (or 1x/4) cable. It is a REAL time, money and work saver.


Don't get me wrong, I am 12-4 junkie. I only let certain guys on my crew use it because it can be a real f-up too! But the NM version was designed specifically for AFCI uses with two hots and two neutrals. I was under the impression (actually, I was told that very thing) that AFCIs would not function with a shared neutral.

InPhase277


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

InPhase277 said:


> I was under the impression (actually, I was told that very thing) that AFCIs would not function with a shared neutral.


No, not with two single pole breakers.






InPhase277 said:


> But the NM version was designed specifically for AFCI uses with two hots and two neutrals.


Sorry, I don't mean to drag this out, but I want to see proof of this one. I DO NOT buy it.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> No, not with two single pole breakers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I'M sorry to drag this out. I'm striving to understand. I think I gotcha. Being that two separate breakers have separate neutrals. I see.

But are you saying you don't buy that 12-2-2 was made for AFCIs? From the Southwire website:



> The Type NM-B 2/2/conductor cable, marketed by Southwire under the ROMEX® brand name, is designed for running two circuits to bedrooms in areas that require the new Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI).


InPhase277


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## wire_twister (Feb 19, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Neutrals cannot land on an added ground bar. Only grounding conductors can.
> 
> The main factory installed bars are for both grounds and neutrals in a main panel.


Actually one bar is for grounds and one is for neutrals, the 2 should not be mixed.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

InPhase277 said:


> But are you saying you don't buy that 12-2-2 was made for AFCIs? From the Southwire website:


Ah ha! Thank you. Now I DO buy it.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

wire_twister said:


> Actually one bar is for grounds and one is for neutrals, the 2 should not be mixed.


Are you serious?


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

wire_twister said:


> Actually one bar is for grounds and one is for neutrals, the 2 should not be mixed.


 
Hey, my inspector showed up!

Just like I said to him, care to cite a code reference?


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Really? Hadn't heard this, but then again, I'm not a resi guy per se... Why do they make 12-2-2 if you can share the neutral?
> 
> InPhase277


You can use 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 for other applications, I've never seen a 2-pole arc fault breaker myself.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

So, is there a significant cost savings to using XX-2-2 for something similar to a MWBC??

What exactly are the conductors in it?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

chris75 said:


> You can use 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 for other applications, I've never seen a 2-pole arc fault breaker myself.


I included a link in post #33.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

CowboyAndy said:


> So, is there a significant cost savings to using XX-2-2 for something similar to a MWBC??
> 
> What exactly are the conductors in it?


One version has: black, white, red, white with a red tracer.
Another version has: black, red, white, blue.


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> One version has: black, white, red, white with a red tracer.


 That's the xx/2/2 for AFCI use.



Speedy Petey said:


> Another version has: black, red, white, blue.


 And that's the xx/4 used primarily (by me at least) for the combination nightlight/light/vent exhaust units.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

How avalible is XX/2/2 wire? Do places like homers and blows sell it?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

CowboyAndy said:


> How avalible is XX/2/2 wire? Do places like homers and blows sell it?


Yes. ..


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't know if I should start a new thread on this or not, but what is the feeling from the pros on using jboxes in new construction? 

Scenerio: Wiring a house wanting to use the XX/2/2 for 2 bedrooms on the opposite end of the house from the panel. How would you wire it? My first thought would be to run the XX/2/2 to a location underneath an adjoining wall for the 2 rooms, then split off from there with XX/2 to each room. Would you do that the same way?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> I don't know if I should start a new thread on this or not, but what is the feeling from the pros on using jboxes in new construction?
> 
> Scenerio: Wiring a house wanting to use the XX/2/2 for 2 bedrooms on the opposite end of the house from the panel. How would you wire it? My first thought would be to run the XX/2/2 to a location underneath an adjoining wall for the 2 rooms, then split off from there with XX/2 to each room. Would you do that the same way?


Well, you certainly have to make j-boxes accessible, so if you use them you have to put them in an attic or basement, cubby hole etc. Or a blank box in a closet or inconspicuous location. Most likely, you take the xx-2-2 to the first appropriately-sized outlet box, and make the tap there.

Of course, you have the disadvantage of having taps in places that aren't necessarily obvious to future troubleshooters. For example, if the circuit on the other side of the house isn't working, it takes a leap of imagination to think to look in an outlet box on what appears to be an unrelated circuit. Of course any tap made should be done in such a manner as it isn't likely to fail, that is, making sure the wire is twisted properly under the wirenut etc.

InPhase277


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> You can use 12-2-2 and 14-2-2 for other applications, I've never seen a 2-pole arc fault breaker myself.


Oh I certainly agree that it would be great for any application that you need the extra conductor for. The only problem I have with it is that it also allows Joe Shmuck home owner to use it on his single phase system to run multiwire circuits with a shared neutral and three hots.

InPhase277


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> One version has: black, white, red, white with a red tracer.
> Another version has: black, red, white, blue.


They actually make an NM cable with a blue conductor? I haven't seen this one yet. They don't have this one at my local Home Desperate. They stock the independent neutral xx-2-2.

But I guess since I don't do any three phase jobs in NM I have never had chance to see it at the supply house either.

InPhase277


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## Randell Tarin (Jan 19, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> Speaking of shared neutrals...I ran a 12/3 MWBC to a j-box(in basement, accessible) and split off that with 12/2 to the two independent circuits. I used a two-pole 20A breaker for the 12/3. Do the receptacles need to be pigtailed to guard against an open neutral? Or is there no danger since only 12/2 is used for the two independent circuits?





InPhase277 said:


> You don't have to pigtail the receptacles, but it is a good practice to do so anyhow, that way you don't rely on the device to complete the circuit.
> 
> InPhase277


In this particular scenario, how is pigtailing used? Wouldn't the 3 neutrals be tied together in the J-Box? What's pigtailed?


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Randell Tarin said:


> In this particular scenario, how is pigtailing used? Wouldn't the 3 neutrals be tied together in the J-Box? What's pigtailed?


I was referring to pigtailing the receptacles that are downstream of the j-box. Yes, the three neutrals in the initial j-box would be connected together.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Randell Tarin said:


> In this particular scenario, how is pigtailing used? Wouldn't the 3 neutrals be tied together in the J-Box? What's pigtailed?


All the wires would pigtail. In other words, wire all the whites together, all the blacks together, and all the grounds together. Then pigtail to the receptacle. This is with the 12-2 in each box after you branch out from the multiwire j-box.

InPhase277


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Oh I certainly agree that it would be great for any application that you need the extra conductor for. The only problem I have with it is that it also allows Joe Shmuck home owner to use it on his single phase system to run multiwire circuits with a shared neutral and three hots.
> 
> InPhase277


Why would you worry at all what joe shmuck does? I've seen electricians do the same thing...


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> Why would you worry at all what joe shmuck does? I've seen electricians do the same thing...


Not too worried. Just slightly concerned. And no, you haven't seen "electricians" do that, what you have witnessed my friend is a "jackleg"

InPhase277


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## Randell Tarin (Jan 19, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> All the wires would pigtail. In other words, wire all the whites together, all the blacks together, and all the grounds together. Then pigtail to the receptacle. This is with the 12-2 in each box after you branch out from the multiwire j-box.
> 
> InPhase277


You might want to restate this.

He said he was feeding this from a two-pole breaker with 12/3 to the J-box. He has two hots. You wouldn't want to pigtail them together.

One of the hots coming off the 12/3 is going to be red. You would pigtail the black from circuit #1 to the black and the black from circuit #2 to the red. THEN the whites would be pigtailed together.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Randell Tarin said:


> You might want to restate this.
> 
> He said he was feeding this from a two-pole breaker with 12/3 to the J-box. He has two hots. You wouldn't want to pigtail them together.
> 
> One of the hots coming off the 12/3 is going to be red. You would pigtail the black from circuit #1 to the black and the black from circuit #2 to the red. THEN the whites would be pigtailed together.


What I mean is, after you leave your j-box with 12-2, and begin jumping your receptacles together, it is good practice to pigtail in your receptacle boxes.

InPhase277


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> What I mean is, after you leave your j-box with 12-2, and begin jumping your receptacles together, it is good practice to pigtail in your receptacle boxes.
> 
> InPhase277


I didn't want to bring up the whole "discussion" about pigtailing vs. screw terminals again. I just wanted to know if pigtailing was neccessary after the j-box in a MWBC. I guess I answered my own question because there would only be a 120V potential in each receptacle box after the j-box so there would be no possibility of an overvoltage situation unless the grounded conductors in the j-box seperated.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This is what inphase77 is refering to and it is a matter of preference after the jbox but I would much rather land 2 wires on a receptacle than 4.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> This is what inphase77 is refering to and it is a matter of preference after the jbox but I would much rather land 2 wires on a receptacle than 4.


Yep. That's it, minus the GFCIs. I did find that pigtailing at the receptacles was sometimes more convinient. Bending 3 wires back into the box vs. 5 is a lot easier.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Would you believe I didn't have that one drawn......

Anyway....corrected drawing now inserted in previous post.


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Would you believe I didn't have that one drawn......
> 
> Anyway....corrected drawing now inserted in previous post.


Is the 10/3 for votage drop?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks Jerry. That is a typo. Correction on the way....:thumbsup:


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Thanks Jerry. That is a typo. Correction on the way....:thumbsup:


I just thought you were planning ahead for a long run... :clap:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Nope just fat fingered the key board...2 and 0 are so close together ya know...


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

So Stubbie, what would the difference be with 12/2/2 instead of a true MWBC... should the neutral be pigtailed at each recep? Also, the 2 neutrals SHOULDN'T be tied together in a jbox, right?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> So Stubbie, what would the difference be with 12/2/2 instead of a true MWBC... should the neutral be pigtailed at each recep? Also, the 2 neutrals SHOULDN'T be tied together in a jbox, right?


A true MWBC has a shared neutral, with an equal voltage between each hot to that neutral. Thus, the two circuits of a 12-2-2 don't fit the Code's definition of an MWBC. With 12-2-2, you have would keep all hots separate and all neutrals separate. From there on, when running 12-2 to the devices down stream, pigtailing is not necessary, but is, in my opinion, a good practice.

InPhase277


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## dhawk (Jan 5, 2012)

xxxxx


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