# new construction no Brick ledge



## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

Hi, I would like to know when the brick ledge is supposed to be poured. We are building a new home and they have already poured the slab and have started the framing. I noticed today that there is no brick ledge. The house is 60% brick, the front and left side is brick, and the right and back is hardiplank.
Thank you for your help.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Your house will now be 0% brick.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

You have several options. What I would do in your situation is the following:

First, I would require a 10 year warranty on water penetration, no pro rating, material and labor.

Second, I would require them to use asphaltic coated copper flashing, at least 3oz grade, with premade dams and corners on the sill (at least 12" up the wall) and over all windows and doors. I would require weeps 12" O.C., and require the use of a product similar to Mortar Net to prevent bridging.

Third, I would personally be onsite when the flashing was installed to make sure it was done correctly, and if possible, bring a manufacturers rep or independant inspector along.

If those things are done, you should not have any issues.

You could also force them to stucco and use veneer stone, but that will be much more expensive.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

I think it is not at all clear what is meant by no brick ledge. If there is no place to put the brick you can't have brick veneer. If the shelf was left out but there is room for brick at the top of the foundation wall that is higher than it should have been you can deal with it with careful flashing (WR GRACE Perm-A-Barrier under copper) and show more of the foundation than was intended. It all depends on the detail which is impossible to understand without a scale drawing or a photograph.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

If you read his other thread on the subject, it appears that the contractor did not block out the ledge, but dimensionally it is there.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

So there is a brick ledge, it's just not below the floor level as it was supposed to be? This is an architectural and waterproofing issue that can not be properly solved without a drawing. I can say a self-adhering flexible flashing turned up BEHIND the sheathing board and turned down the concrete using a water based primer (WB Pimer) on the concrete and copper (not aluminum) protection where it is exposed, is probably called for.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

What exactly do you need a drawing of?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

http://www.bia.org/BIA/technotes/fig4.gif

This would show the appropriate flashing; just imagine that the area filled with mortar on the ledge is concrete. It is not that unusual or difficult a detail, and is not that big of an issue, provied it is flashed correctly.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> What exactly do you need a drawing of?


Well, a drawing might tell me if the house is intended to have brick or stone veneer (one thread mentions brick, the other stone), the size of the cavity, if the back-up is block or wood frame, if there is sheathing, the height of the slab above the ground, the thickness and ltype of insulation and the kind of waterproofing or underlayment. I don't know any other way to design than to learn everything there is to know about the original design and the degree of the error and that can only be learned from a drawing. It's just too easy to lead someone astray in these internet forums so I'll leave you to it.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Regardless of those details, the flashing remains the same. If you have a different opinon, you should voice it.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> Regardless of those details, the flashing remains the same. If you have a different opinon, you should voice it.


OK, here is my opinion:
I strongly suggest that Justbeck101 get a local design professional to help sort this and other problems out rather than relying on an incompetent contractor or unprofessional internet forum advice. This is not a DIY project. The cost of a house is too great to approach design problems in such a naive manner.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> You have several options. What I would do in your situation is the following:
> First, I would require a 10 year warranty on water penetration, no pro rating, material and labor.
> Second, I would require them to use asphaltic coated copper flashing, at least 3oz grade, with premade dams and corners on the sill (at least 12" up the wall) and over all windows and doors. I would require weeps 12" O.C., and require the use of a product similar to Mortar Net to prevent bridging.
> Third, I would personally be onsite when the flashing was installed to make sure it was done correctly, and if possible, bring a manufacturers rep or independant inspector along.
> ...


I hate to get into a tit for tat argument but I feel I now have a professional obligation to respond to these recommendations.

(1) An extended warranty will be little comfort. If this detail is going to leak it will probably happen within the normal contractor's warranty period unless it doesn't rain during that time. When it leaks, the contractor would have to tear out all of the brickwork and install better flashing. That better flashing should be done now. 

(2) If this is a wood frame structure 3 oz. asphalt -saturated copper-fabric flashing is an inappropriate flashing material. It is difficult to attach and seal to the structure and it cannot form the drip needed at the face of the brickwork creating a path for capilary water movement. I don't know how it would be possible to pre-form corners in this material. 12" o.c. weeps would require cutting every other brick in half so I assume it was a typo. Nothing wrong with cavity screening but that is far from this person's problem at the moment.

(3) If an inspector is to be involved all you need to tell the homeowner is to hire him now, let him design a good detail and ignore all other advice. Of course the contractor should pay for that consultant.

(4) I don't know how stucco would fit on a ledge sized for brick without creating a bigger problem than there already is unless you are suggesting making the house 3" larger.

Justbeck101, your detail is quite unusual. The omission of a brick shelf is a serious error. To prevent water from being drawn into the house by capillary action at the floor level brick joint you MUST get a detail from an experienced design professional familiar with the situation instead of using typical details from a contractor or a web site.

In the past 40 years I have detailed brick veneer buildings for Harvard, IBM, C-M U., NYU Law, Princeton, airport authorities and developers. I don't know everything but I worked with people who collectively did and that led me to never use the same detail twice — there are no standard details in building construction — every building is different. 

The worse brick problem I ever had was 30 years ago when water continually entered an IBM office building in Essex Junction, VT because I put the flashing one course higher than the relieving angle without a drip. I spent a lot of time in the basket of a cherry picker trying to solve that leak so I haven't made that mistake again. That detail is similar to yours and I promise you that you would be amazed at the quantity of water that can enter a virtually invisible mortar joint crack and how far it can travel into a building. Don’t rely on standard details and warranties. Fix it now!

I have attached a detail with double flashing and a drip but I have no idea if it is appropriate for your circumstance since I only have the vaguest of hints about the construction configuration. Use it as a starting point, not a solution.

Good luck


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Now that is a good detail.


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Why the double flashing, though? Won't that just trap moisture into the sheathing?


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

No more than the underlayment (probably Tyvek) would.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Can't the contractor cut a shelf into the concrete?


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## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

*A little more detail*

Okay, I dont think I explained myself very well.
We are having a 1701 sqft one story house built. The house was supposed to be brick. The builder has an in house architect to draw the plans(blueprints). The architect drew the plan for the concrete man. When the architect drew the plan he put the deminsions in for the brick ledge but he forgot to put the actual brick ledge in the drawing. When the concrete man poured the slab he did not know it was to have a brick ledge. Thus now our square footage is larger (atleast this is what the builder said the reason is) 1728 square feet. I noticed this after the framing of the house was done. The bolts that hold the framing down are placed about an inch in from the edge of the slab. I told the builder that I did not think there was a brick ledge. I went to other construction sites to see what a brick ledge looked like. I am now positive there in no brick ledge. In fact at some points the framing hangs over the edge of the slab 1 to 1 1/2 inches. The builder first offered to pour an additional 1 and 1/2 inches of concrete on top of the existing slab and add the brick ledge onto the sides that way. After speaking with many cancrete and slab people I told the builder no. I asked him if stone would work without a brick ledge and he said that Cultured stone (manufactured stone) would work. I do not know anything about this product. I am in the process of trying to find out about it. I hired an inspector to come out and he found multiple things wrong. He also told me that the stone would be sticking out from the house abour 3 inches or so. I am now also aware that the slab was not inspected by the loan people like it was supposed to be. The builder was supposed to be making draws from the loan that way the loan people could inspect prior to giving any money. The builder used his own funds. I am now faced with, are we splitting hairs or should I make them bulldoze it?


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## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

*One more thing*

The builder is using fiberbrace and is not putting anything over it, like tyvec.
Thanks


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

It sounds like big trouble but it's too complicated for me to offer any certain advice. I would get an architect — this is what they do for a living. It is inconceivable to me that someone would spend enough money to build house and let a contractor control everything. You will never learn enough to make an intelligent decision. Hire an architect to review the drawings, look at the construction and give you a written report with recommendations for appropriate action. This is not a do-it-yourself kind of thing. 

As for fiber brace, it appears to be a dirt cheap substitute for plywood or OSB sheathing. I assume it goes behind the brick with an inch or more air space. Even if the builder can somehow provide enough lateral bracing for the building the joints are unprotected. This is not aceptable practice in my experience. I would ask for #30 (not the thin stuff) asphalt saturated building felt (building paper) installed over the board or that the joints be sealed with something compatible with the asphalt fiberboard.

If you want professional advice you will need to hire a professional or at least draw a detail or post photographs so others can understand what has been built.

I'll bet the contractor's "architect" was not really an architect. I love the oxymoron, "unregistered architect"


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## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

*Okay, Pics here*

Here are a few pictures of the house. The front view, a view of where the house overhangs, a view of the rear of the house with the hardiplank, and a view of where the slab has chipped off, and one of the drain pipe showing through the side of the slab.


As for letting the contractor control everything, we are not really sure of what we do and do not have control over. We have never built a house before and we do not have money to go hire who ever we feel like highering to fix the problem that the builder has created. We are trying to find out what our options are. When I went out and told the construction crew to go home after I had already told the builder to stop the day before, the builder jumped my butt for it and threatend me with, (1st) your house could take a long time to build (until I told him I have been renting all my life, I cant rent some more!) to (2nd) my loan company is going to charge me with going over the dates of when the house is supposed to be finished, because we are not using a convential loan company.
Anyway, I talked to the loan company and they said that was not true, but the point is he tried to threaten me.
We are young with three children and I do not work so really we don't have many options when it comes to highering people. That is why I research everyting on the internet.
Thank you for any help you can give me. All of your advice is great.
If you need more pictures let me know of what you want a picture of. 
Thanks


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## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

*Sorry, pics of overhang here*

2pics of overhang


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

I can see all the photos except the first one. Is this actually your house? Has the contractor given up on brick and installed siding instead? Are there still places where you hope to have brick? I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to do.

Some suggestions:
Make sure the flashing at the window heads goes as high as possible, even up to the top of the wall so that water can't get behind it. Of course, if the flashing is UNDER the fiberboard at the window head it will be ok. I just can't tell from the photograph. I've never seen construction without underlaymnet (building paper or Tyvek, etc) under the siding to cover the joints in the sheathing and overlap the window flashing.

Covering the sheathing with building paper or Tyvek is standard construction most places and required by code in many places. The cost is small but the benefit could be enormous. I can't imagine someone would be so uninformed or cheap as to omit this kind of weather protection. 

There should be no gaps or openings in the fiberboard sheathing — no daylight showing.

Is there a building code in your town? Building inspectors?

What state are you in? 

Are there specifications or drawings and a contract that you approved? 

I've been a registered architect in Boston for 36 years with experience in every kind of building type. I have 4 houses in construction right now. And I hate to see anyone taken advantage of.

From what you said about the contractor's comments, he thinks he can intimidate you. That's unfortunate and his personality may prove to be the biggest problem you face. It may take a higher authority like a lawyer or the building department to change his attitude. 

If you were near Boston I would enjoy helping you to hammer this guy into the ground.


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## Justbeck101 (Mar 30, 2006)

1.Is this actually your house? 

Yes this is our house.

2.Has the contractor given up on brick and installed siding instead?

Originally we were doing 60% brick and the rest Hardiplank, now our builder wants to place manufactured stone on the face of the house and waynescoat on the left and right with hardiplank on the rest of the sides and the rear of the house.

We wanted brick, but if it is going to be risky adding a brick ledge then we would rather do stone, but now we found out that the stone is going to protrude 3 to 4 inches past the slab.

3.Make sure the flashing at the window heads goes as high as possible, even up to the top of the wall so that water can't get behind it.

The only "window flashing" being used is "window wrap". We were told that this is flashing. I also asked about the windows being caulked when installed and I was told that this was done when the sheet rock guy came.......

4. Is there a building code in your town? Building inspectors?
What state are you in? 

I am in Texas and we are outside the city limits. We do not have a county inspector, but our loan officer said that he is a qualified inspector and he was going to be inspecting every step of the way. When I called him and told him that there was no brick ledge, he thought I was looking at the wrong house because the builder has not made any draws on the loan and has not told the loan officer to inspect anything. 

5.Are there specifications or drawings and a contract that you approved? 

Yes, we have a contract and a floor plan/house plan. We agreed to the fiberbrace not realizing what it was. We assumed that plywood and tyvec was standard for all housing. That is what we always see on houses being built!

The contractor did tell me yesterday that they did not have time to get the forms for the slab inspected prior to pouring. When we asked the first time they told us that their inspector inspected and that everything was fine.....I asked again yesterday and he admited that it was not inspected. Hence, no brick ledge, and a non squared slab!

We spoke with an attorney today and he said we could either try to agree on a list of requests that we make for the builder and they eat the cost or we can go to court and try to get them to have to bulldoze the slab.

The problem is nothing can fix the slab except bulldozing it. 

Thanks


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

I would be more concerned about weather protection than brick or stone, but then I have never liked partial brick houses; the ones designed by contractor’s usually look pretty bad, especially on a small house, but I haven’t seen your design.

I think you could still put brick (don't know why stone would be installed differently) on the house using the detail I gave you (no brick shelf) but it would mean tearing down the walls and setting them back about 5".

If you are willing to have the exterior walls be all siding, perhaps you could get a financial settlement from the contractor for not providing it since it is in the contract. Or perhaps he would let you build another house on another lot with the original design. Or perhaps his errors are great enough to void the contract and get your money back. I would think the loan company would be way ahead of you on this — it's their house too!

Although Texas has adopted the 2000 International Residential Code (IRC), the code must be adopted at the local level prior to enforcement. The Texas Department of Insurance has replaced the Texas Windstorm Insurance Association (TWIA) code with the IRC and IBC. You should call someone at the state or county level and see if the IRC applies to you. It appears that it doesn’t or the contractor wouldn’t even try to build this way. He probably intentionally builds in unregulated communities.

The 2003 IRC Section R703.2 requires minimum 14 lb/100 s.f. asphalt saturated felt (building paper) under the Hardiplank siding. That would be the equivalent of #30 building paper (not #15). Tyvek or Typar would be an acceptable substitute. I can give you the full text if you need it. I am shocked that your lending company did not require the construction to meet the IRC regardless of the local enforcement or that they didn't review the construction documents and apply their own standards. 

It appears your contractor is either incompetent, dishonest or both. I would start looking for other people he has hurt and projects that have turned bad. Your house can't be the only one.


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## tgeb (Feb 11, 2006)

Two ways I can think of to put brick on your house without taking any thing down.

1). dig down next to the foundation and pour a footing next to the one that is there, drill and epoxy set rebar into the existing to lock it all together. Then brick up from there.

2). Dig down to below grade and bolt a steel angle iron to the existing foundation. The brick would be set on this angle. I would use a galvanized 4"x6" and attach it every 12 to 16 inches.

Tom


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## SeanB (Jun 21, 2012)

So why can't you just put the brick on the footings that are already there? That is how I always saw it done back in Arkansas.


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