# In desperate need of professional help



## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi, I am currently having a major dilemma and am hoping someone here can help give me some insight.
So this is how it starts, my husband and I had a company come out and give an estimate on getting a new shingle roof done. We ended up biting on the bait and signing a contract with this company with the thought that he was going to be here when this work would be started. The salesguy told us that the company he worked for did not use mexicans, he told us that when they did our roof that all the old shingles and felt would be removed down to the decking. And that the decking would be check for any bad spots and if any were found they would be changed. We knew one spot for sure was going to need to be changed, and we told him that and he said he would include a note stating that spot specifically to be changed. So we signed the contract on thursday or friday and on tuesday afternoon i had a knock at the door, which when i opened the door it was my contractor here to deliver some materials, and low and behold the guy was a mexican, so already i am suspicious of being decieved. So the next morning its raining so the crew does not get here until about 1:30, the supervisor of this crew dropped the guys off at my home and did not return for them until almost 8pm. In this time the guys took off all the old shingle and nails from the old felt on the font half of the roof, leaving the felt on and never looking under it, and just started rolling out the new felt on top the old and nailing it down. When I asked I was simply told that it was just to cover the roof in case it rained and that the wood would be checked the next day. So on Thursday they get here and the finish pulling the shingles off the back of the roof. In the meantime I called the guy who sold us the roof asking why was the old felt not being taken off like promised and he said oh we don't take the old felt off if it still looks good. By this time (after watching the workers every move) I see the guys bringing up packs of shingles to the rooftop with the one place still never having wood replaced, when trying to call the guy again he would not answer the phone so i called the main office, and they said someone would call me back. At this time they had already started nailing new shingles to the roof. With my husband not being able to be here(was sent offshore to work) I had two of our neighbors come look at the roof for me, while the workers were using the wood pieces from the trash trailer (they haul the trash away with) to replace the one area we knew needed to be changed. They climbed up on the roof and walked around and both said that there were some places that were soft enough to almost fall through. At this time I had gotten the workers to all stop all the work they were in the process of doing, and then my neighbor took some pictures. This one was of the place we knew needed to be changed and they were not doing it completely they were in the process of covering it back up with the new felt. 



So the supervisor walks around with my neighbors and they are told by him that the roof is not soft, which was the 3rd time i heard him say that it was not bad. So the workers leave for the day, and the guy that sold the roof to us drives up while my neighbor and I are talking, which at this point I had just realized that in their fit of hurry they covered the place that my vent was for my gas hotwater heater with felt and had not reopened the vent so the gases would go out instead of staying in. When i realized this my neighbor fixed it for me. The salesguy gets to my house and starts yelling at my neighbor for telling his workers they were doing the work wrongly, as seen in this photo



As you can see the felt was put under the drippan and the corner is exposed as well as the wood being rotten. Both the salesman and his boss both say that the wood is not bad, and that the whole vent being covered and the old felt not being taken off is all just miscommunications. But I honestly think I was about to be jacked, they were well on their way to put shingles back on my roof asap until i stopped them. So on Friday morning I meet the big boss, who says also the wood is not bad on the roof, but with my insistance of wanting it all changed out before shingles are put down, goes with me to the lumberyard, I pay 1000.00 for the decking wood, and then he wants us to pay them another 2300.00 for the extra labor of laying the decking down. The rain stopped them today but my husband is not happy with any of this. We both think we were being lied to, decieved, nothing we have been told has been completely honest. This is what the one side of the roof that the wood was pulled off of today looked like.....


all the pieces I could see in the trash trailer looked like this or worst. How could they say this was acceptable? Our question for you professionals is this, how do we get our money we paid already back and break the contract, do we have good enough grounds for breaking our contract with these people? In case you need to know we are in Louisiana. I think we have good enough grounds because they have breeched the contract by not taking the old felt off like stated in our signed contract. What do you guys think?


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, you pretty much have been taken to the cleaners. It sounds like you live in the gulf area where most all the roofing is done by illegal labor. By the way, if one of them gets hurt, they are not covered by the contractor and you will be liable. Also, the work will not be warrantied by the insurance company either because again, work done by illegals is not warrantied.

This stuff is pretty standard practice because people don't want to pay a few more dollars to hire a legitimate crew. I don't think you have any reason to continue to work with these guys as long as you are confident that they are indeed legals and that the work is shoddy. Take plenty of pictures and document everything. You shouldn't have to worry about a suit because anyone running illegals won't dare take you to court.

Might not hurt to get a waiver signed if you do decide to go this route. The wood should have been replaced and for a much better price than he's giving you. These kind of guys are just there to line their pockets.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Yes we live far downsouth in Louisiana. As of this morning I called the guy whom I believe is the owner and told him not to send his people back over here that he needs to meet with my husband when he gets home from work. I had my brother come up on the roof with me this morning and they were leaving the old felt on under their new layer, but we realized there was a third layer on the roof from the previous roof change. I asked the guy for their permit number and he said he called the city permit office and said that b.c. we are out of the city limits we didn't need one which is a lie b.c. i found this info on the website..PENALTY FOR CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT A PERMIT – TRIPLE BASIC FEE
OR MINIMUM CHARGE OF $250.00
ACT 1146 of the 2003 Legislature; requires the “Registration” of all home
improvements contractors, subcontractors, renovators, and remodelers who
bid and perform construction work valued at $7,500.00 and above.
We paid them half of the total they were charging which was 8,000.00 plus i paid another 1000.00 for the wood to change the roof. I think they knew about the bad wood and didn't want to have to change it so thats why they were leaving the old felt on and when i caught them they had already reshingled almost half of the backside of my house already. So that is all wasted materials, because it all has to come off. Our main question I guess now is how much of our money should we be entitled to get back? I think after all the bs the have pulled we should get all our money back...minus labor for them taking the shingles off which totals to one days work.(for 2 guys) I have enclosed pictures of the new wood on one side they have replaced.... take a look at this...


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I bet this happens often. Don't hire someone out of the yellow pages..........Get references, and someone local.

Can your building inspector help you? Do you have a licensing department where you live? Complain to the BBB. Any way that you do it, get them off your property and don't pay them for anything they haven't done (according to contract).

People here are quick to call Contractors hacks.....this is a situation that is easily labeled as hacks. Let me guess, it was nice clean cut guy who sold to you, right? And then an entirely different crew showed up, right. 
Plenty of them around here, but it's probably worse in the south. Alot of people want to talk the talk, but very few can handle the business and walk the walk also. These jobs are labeled as "not jobs Americans are willing to do". I think that is BS. The real quote should be "jobs Americans are unwilling to do for very little money, like illegals do now"

These types of companies are ruining the business and as you can see, ruining alot of people's homes along the way if they are not properly trained.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

You are sooo right! Yes very clean cut guy, who had certificates from the local BBB saying they were an A+ company in customer service. He also showed us their insurance papers saying it covered the workers in the event that they were hurt while on our roof....but after we signed the contract all his lies started flowing. I called him out on all of them and the only answer I can get from either of them is "it was a miscommunication" even about the gas water heater vent being covered up with felt paper. I plan on Monday morning to get in touch with our permit office, get our building inspector involved and get some consultation with an attorney.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

Photo, it is easy to be confused by the terminology in this business and anything you read here should be considered only as a gesture of guidance. First off, let's understand the difference in "Registered" and "Licensed". Registered implies a contractor has notified a state, county, parrish or other govt entity of their tax information. Most state or municipalities require registration so that they may collect taxes from the Registered business entity. Registered has nothing to do with a contractors skill level. Licensed means a contractor has passed a series of tests (trade knowledge, business law, etc.) and has proven work experience to show that he is capable and worthy of becoming a licensed contractor based upon the criteria required by the state. Secondly, and not knowing what website you are refering to, I do not think the article you cited has a thing to do about permitting, it is referencing "Registration". Permitting is done at the local govt entity. If in fact you are not within city limits you should check with your parrish to see if the job should be permitted. Lastly, I believe I am correct in saying that, in the State of Louisiana a contractor does not have to be licensed if the contract price is less than $25,000.00. Please verify this because I think the legislature has altered this requirement over the past few years because of the hurricanes. All that being said changes nothing about your situation, you have a "HACK" for a contractor by anybody's standard. You should send him certified mail informing him to cease his work. Should it become necessary to make a financial settlement with him keep in mind some of the work he has done will have to be redone (ie; tear off). Hopefully this has provided some understanding. Best of luck.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

http://www.iberiaparishgovernment.com/forms/dept-permits-01.pdf
This is the website I found that information on. But as I stated I will call the permit office to make sure they needed one....


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Well I'm her husband that got sent to work early and couldn't be there for all of this fun she is having.
We have made up our mind that these people are not coming back to do any more work on our home.What we would like to know is: 
1. do we have a good enough reason to break the contract with them?We have in writing on the contract to remove old felt and lay new,along with all the other wrong doings they have done.
2. If so how much of the money should we get back or ask to get back?We gave $4000 up front and the other $4000 when the job is done and we are completly satisfied (which aint going to happen).

For the record these people are ranked A+ with the better business beaur for over three years.
Thanks for any help or advise on this in advance.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

photo, this is what I would do to attempt a settlement. Have a new roofer give you an estimate of what it will take to complete the job. Have him give you another estimate for what he would charge for the work completed satisfactorily by your first contractor. Settle with the first contractor for the amount the second contractor gave you for the work completed to your satisfaction. If this does not work, tell the first contractor you are willing to have two more contractors provide similar estimates and you will settle for the average. Also, you might ask the second roofer if his warranty will cover work done by the first contractor. If he won't, he needs to rework what ever he needs to so that he can warranty the entire work.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

rwa,thanks for your help and input on this matter.

(i'm the husband)The only way to fix it to satisfactory would be to take up everything the first contractor has done.This is the only way to pull up the old felt that they felted over and started putting shingles on top of (wast of materals).Only thing I see worth paying them for is taking off the old shingles, wich we will now have to pay someone else to take off the new shingles and new felt that they put down to be able to get to the old felt that they should have done in the first place.Even the few places that they did change sheath will need to be redone as you can see in the pictures.I should be charging them for the waste off sheath that they used.She had went and bought another $1000 worth of the sheath to redo the roof out of pocket and they want to charge her another $2300 for the labor of installing it.

I'm not a happy camper here and hope they will work with me so we dont have to go to court,I just want my roof done right by someone else.This is a lesson learned.
I will be home from Offshore on Tuesday to sit down and have a talk with the owner,We're just trying to get our ducks in a row before meeting with him.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

I think the going rate for roof deck is about $45-50 dollars for a 4x8 sheet. That's labor and material so if she purchased $1000 and they wanted $2300 you should have about 66 sheets of decking, about 2100sf. I can verify the decking cost tomorrow and let you know. My price list (Xactimate), allows for $35.00 per square for tear of on a single story, 1 layer. BTW, I just checked my price sheet for decking, labor and material is $1.63 per sf or $52.00 per 4x8 sheet. Hope this info helps. I think you are justified in paying roofer 1 for less than the tear off of the roof.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks again rwa.

Our prices must be pretty close because my wife did say she bought 70 sheets of decking for $999.Seems like you and I are on the same page here,maybe we can get a couple more opinions before I meet with the guy on Tuesday.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

There is a poster on this site, Ed the Roofer. Hopefully he will respond, I've seen numerous post from him and his opinion should be of great value.

Ed, if you're out there, can you offer an opinion?


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

RWA, Xactimate is great, but remember it is area specific. TX prices are usually much lower than any other state. $35 for tear off.........We were getting that since 1995. Prices have doubled since then, unless the company uses illegals. Then they can be at $50/square off and on.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

Checking my Baton Rouge prices, I come up with $45.00 a square for take off. Once again remember, that is for a single story structure, one layer.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

rwa said:


> There is a poster on this site, Ed the Roofer. Hopefully he will respond, I've seen numerous post from him and his opinion should be of great value.
> 
> Ed, if you're out there, can you offer an opinion?


 
I've read a few post on this forum and have a couple people I would lik to respond on this,Ed being one of them.I was going to PM them the post to see if they would respond,but no one excepts PMs.:huh:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

You must have clicked a different function than the PM, because you clicked the "Add A Friend" function, but this is the first i have been online since you originally posted yesterday.

RWA is very correct in how to approach this situation.

Stop all work and send a Certified Letter with Return Receipt Requested.

Start taking all notes and times and dates and whom you speak with for documentation.

Get proposals from other contractors that have been established and use local experienced roofers for their crew, which may be hard, since your area was deluged with transient workers looking to cash in on the extent of existing damages needing repairs made.

You may or may not have to go to small claims court, but you also may be able to just get the contractor to back off.

Whatever price it costs for the new contractor to finish the work, Not Including the additional costs of the decking repairs, which would have been an extra fee from the original contractor also, you allow them to keep the difference in what it will cost you.

You may have to go to court to get a portion of your funds paid already to get reimbursed back to you, but if they you and they do not come to an agreeable amount, then court is the resolution process, where everyone will lose because of the time and aggravation it will take.

Bottom line is, you do not want them to continue the performance of this contract.

They "May" be entitled, not only to the cost difference calculated after you get other proposals, but also "Possibly" an amount for lost profit. I, personally would not allow that argument to have any merit, due to the shoddy workmanship, but they may feel it is deserved.

If no resolution is forthcoming, then I would contact every consumer protection agency and the TV and Radio News Media outlets who do consumer rip-off reports and see if they would be interested in your story.

Even if they are not, use the fact that you will be contacting all of those entities to get public exposure to point out there poor contracting abilities, which may make them sing a different tune as far as being ameniable to a resolution that you can live with.

Remember, neither party will be 100% happy with the resolution agreement, but it still will have closure and add to a lesson learned.

Get references and check with those customers for your next contractor choice.

Ed


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Thank you Ed,I will have my wife send the letter to them in the morning.

Do we have a right to keep all the material left at our home to have something to show for the $4000 tied up in the mess and to help with the expenses of installing the new roof (we cant leave our roof like it is now)? My wife will be calling around tomorrow to get a retail price on the materials that are there unused and I am willing to deduct that price from the $4000 we have spent on this already.
77 total packs of shingles
2 whirlies
6 rolls of felt not opened and 3 or 4 with some used out of them,30#
18 strips of the drip pan
1 box of round plasticap 200 ct nails


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not a roofer & never had to work out a problems as described
So I can't really add much to what Ed has stated
I would say that you should "secure" the materials that are still there
Possible they may decide to come back & take everything


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Now the picture gets muddier.

Legally, materials that are already affixed to your home can not be removed.

Since you seem intent on not allowing them to finish the job, due to incorrect performance and procedures, they may feel that the unused shingles belong to them, as well as the plywood delivered.

But, you have paid them 50% of the contract sum upfront, which May or May Not be a fair evaluation for the materials and the labor supplied thus far.

The cloudier the picture gets, the less chance for both parties to be on the same page as far as coming to a mutual agreement.

You and your contractor are both in a quandary right now and some very earnest discussions need to take place as soon as possible to come to a resolution.

At this point, what if it rains and creates any internal damages?

Who is at fault? The contractor for not covering up the roof or completing the job, or yourselves, for not allowing them to proceed, even though you have valid reasons to have shut them down until it gets resolved.

How detailed was the contract, IN WRITING, not the verbal comments made? Does any of the general conditions address a situation like this? If so, what is the written and prescribed method of recourse?

Unfortunately, you are in a difficult situation, which needs immediate attention and resolution.

If the contractor could convince you that a different crew with supervision could proceed and complete the work required, would that be acceptable to you? You have to think of that possibility beforehand.

Also, relating to the price for the wood replacement to be charged.....

What amount did the contract state as the price per sheet or per square foot or if it were to be done at a Time Plus Materials Cost Basis?

The amount in the contract takes precedent over any amount bandied about by any other party, including posters on this or other forums or well intentioned neighbors.

My presumption, is that the contract details, not only including the specifications for the actual job materials and methods were not spelled out, but also conditional clauses, which should be fair to both parties, which describe how unexpected situations will be dealt with and concluded to an agreed upon resolution, which should have been in the original contract.

Ed


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

So below are the front and back of the contract that was signed. The part about the changing any bads spots was just verbal, but the written part was not upheld, because they felted over the old felt that was two layers thick. And when I called to ask why was the felt not being taken off the reply I was given was because as long as the felt still looks good they don't remove it. Even after telling them we wanted it off because that is what we were promised they were trying to talk me out of it saying thats their policy that they leave it on. And today while noone was home they came to get their trashtrailer and took some felt and the plastic off the new wood. So now the wood is unprotected and they came onto our property after they were told not to be here, that they were not wanted here anylonger. Noone ever called to say they were coming to get it either so I knew nothing until I returned and the trailer was gone.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Sorry I missed your post, we had a death in the family this past Thursday thus been spending a lot more time with family members than working.
Don't have time to read through all the post because the funeral is this morning and got to get going, will read more later.

Like Ed said, this is going to get real ugly before it's over.
One of the first things a Judge is going to look at is did you 'the home owner' exhaust all efforts to settle this situation before taking legal action.

I would contact your State Attorney's office and get your complaint on file as well as ask for any known problems with the roofing contractor.
Contact the Better Business Bureau and do the same.
Get what materials that have been left by the roofers moved inside the garage/car port and covered back up.

Get together with the neighbors who witnessed the workers on your home,
take notes of how many workers were there, any 'workers' names you may have gotten/overheard, get additional photos of materials all ready installed and materials left on the ground not yet used.
"if he's using illegal labor he will show 3 employees during the legal process, so if you show he had 8 workers on your home he will have to explain who they were in court"


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

It is time to speak to your attorney for advice.

According to the contracts terms in the general conditions page, you have agreed to obligate the dispute by arbitration, with no recourse for any further legal action.

That may, or may not hold true in your legal jurisdiction, which is why legal advice from a local attorney would be prudent.

Also, it would be beneficial if you and this contractor can resolve the issues and proceed, as I stated previously.

Ed


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Ed the Roofer said:


> It is time to speak to your attorney for advice.
> 
> According to the contracts terms in the general conditions page, you have agreed to obligate the dispute by arbitration, with no recourse for any further legal action.
> 
> ...


The funny thing about that is..... I just called the home builders that its states in the contract and the man i spoke with says, can you send me a copy of this, because this is not how we state our contracts! So I am waiting to hear from them, I didn't disclose the company name, but just covering all grounds before my husband meets with him, I also have a free consultation set for 10am tomorrow morning to help get sorted through this. It seems this will be very ugly, unless by some miracle he decides to give our money back minus the supplies we have which i have called and gotten prices from 3 lumber yards to go by. But I am very nitpicky about things and I have taken photos of everything, the water heater vent being covered with felt paper, all the way down to the empty bud light 12 pk with 4 empty cans in their trash trailer. Pictures speak a million words. I really thank all of you who have taken the time to read through all of my rambling and giving your professional advice and thoughts on everything. It is greatly appreciated!! I thank god that I have neighbors who care enough to help me out while my husband is not here. Im not a roofer but I know when I am about to be jacked.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> Sorry I missed your post, we had a death in the family this past Thursday thus been spending a lot more time with family members than working.
> Don't have time to read through all the post because the funeral is this morning and got to get going, will read more later.
> 
> Like Ed said, this is going to get real ugly before it's over.
> ...


Sorry for your loss! Thanks for your input. Looking forward to any further comments.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

The first bit of advice I would give you now that you have your pictures, have someone get the roof under tarp. As far as permits where I am there is no permit required for re roofing or siding a structure. I do know that some of the gulf states have made it now a job that requires a permit. A call to your building department will answer that question.

Contracting laws vary from state to state including what company information must be on the contract, how disputes may be handled and resolved, what must be detailed in the contract, deposit amounts, progress payments, etc. You are at the point you need to contact an attorney specializing in contract law immediately. Document everything, the more you have the better your chances of getting this resolved.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> The first bit of advice I would give you now that you have your pictures, have someone get the roof under tarp. As far as permits where I am there is no permit required for re roofing or siding a structure. I do know that some of the gulf states have made it now a job that requires a permit. A call to your building department will answer that question.
> 
> Contracting laws vary from state to state including what company information must be on the contract, how disputes may be handled and resolved, what must be detailed in the contract, deposit amounts, progress payments, etc. You are at the point you need to contact an attorney specializing in contract law immediately. Document everything, the more you have the better your chances of getting this resolved.


Thanks, I also did that this morning as well, I called our permit office and the lady I spoke with said they are required to have a permit to do the job. I am also in the process of writing every piece of information I have from the day the salesman came to sell us the roof, leaving out no details. Like I said previously on the back of the contract in #7, I placed a call out to these folks and didn't mention the company name, but he had me send that copy to him and it seems as the info may not be correct. He said that is not how they state their contracts... so I am waiting to hear back on that. I also placed a call to our State attorney's office and waiting on their call back also. So we shall see how this turns out. Thanks for your input.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

photosbyvj said:


> Sorry for your loss! Thanks for your input. Looking forward to any further comments.


Thank You.

There's really nothing left to be said except to further speak about what ED all ready said about how it would be better/easier to settle this situation with the current contractor rather than pushing for a new contractor.

Insist on a new crew, with an owner/supervisor on site full time through out the duration of the job.
Insist on a discount/break/retribution for the mix up/inconvenience.
Insist he sign an agreement that the roof will meet manufacturer
specifications and let him know you will be hiring some one to inspect the work once it's been completed.
Insist he provide written proof of both liability and worker compensation insurances.
Let him know your willing to work this out with him, but you will take legal steps if you have to.

The easiest and best way out of a situation like this is always to work things out with the contractor if possible, you will never get all your money back through legal action.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> Thank You.
> 
> There's really nothing left to be said except to further speak about what ED all ready said about how it would be better/easier to settle this situation with the current contractor rather than pushing for a new contractor.
> 
> ...


OK, I see your points, although the whole company is said to have 12 employers, unless they were all illegals that was pretty much almost everyone that has already been here. The owner, the salesguy, an office lady, the supervisor, and in total there were 4 or 5 other guys working on the crew, so thats a total of 8 or 9 people there. I believe that my husband and I have both agreed that we do not want them on our job anymore. Because from the owner of the company, the salesperson all the way to the supervisor has lied one lie after another. They were not even doing things the correct way, my neighbor whom was a roofer for 4 years was watching them and they were mad because he called them out. Because of him calling them out, they all stood at their vehicle flipping him off. So i would rather not have them back here, because I believe it would just cause more problems. I simply have no trust in the company as a whole because of the lies i was told and because of the lack of sympathy or concern the owner showed for his crew almost killing myself and my 4 girls by covering the hot water heater vent and leaving for the day with it still covered. The only thing he could say was that it was a miscommunication in all the confusion and that is it! Say I had not been paying attention and not noticed that they had covered the vent and left it covered, what then? Before anyone would have realized we would all be seriously injured if not killed from carbon monoxide poisioning. But I do see where you are coming from, and we want to work with the guy without going to court. We think we at least deserve 1500.00 of the 4000.00 we paid. If we can not work that out then we may just have to go to court. I am meeting with an attorney just to help guide us and get some understanding on what we are entitled to and not entitled to. I did let the attorney know from getgo that he will be a last resort of trying to resolve the issue.I just can't allow that company to continue the work, they have just decieved wayyyyyy to much. He even lied and said they didn't need a permit and I called this morning and they said that we do need a permit even though we are out of the city limits. I don't think we are being selfish, I think we are trying to be as fair as possible?


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Yeah, it sounds as if this roofer and his workers crossed the line of no return.
With as bold as you state they are I would consider getting a house sitter, some one to be on the property while you and your husband are at work, etc.

I'm not sure if asking for $1500.00 back will be sufficient, start higher and let him talk you down a little bit.

If this ends up in court the roofers going to claim he has nothing so you may want to "if you can safely" get some pictures of the roofers property 'work shop', vehicles, tools & equipment, etc.
So when he tells a Judge he has nothing, you can say, well who owns this, this and that.
Ask your attorney if you can widen the scope of the lawsuit to include the workers who did the damage to your home rather than just naming the company, because the workers/subs may own some of the vehicles, tools & equipment, etc., themselves.

Good Luck


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## roofrite (Jul 21, 2009)

*In need of professional help*

photosbyjv

I see from the contract you posted it does state that the old felt will be removed. I also spec out in my contracts whether the old felt is to be removed or not. Depending on what part of the country your from stripping the roof down to the bare decking may or may not be S.O.P. 
I have had occasions where the HO specified that they wanted the old roofing material stripped down to the bare decking and when the crew began working they weren't removing the old felt. In all cases it was either caught by myself, a field supervisor or the HO. If I caught it, it was corrected.
If the field supervisor caught it, it was correted. If the HO caught it they simply called pointed it out and it was corrected. 
I have also rolled out felt over an area where there was bad decking to get the roof dried in to keep it water tight over night. The next day we simply removed the felt and replaced the damaged or rotted roof decking.
I have seen hundreds of hack jobs over the years, but I have never seen anyone try to roof over an area that was as rotted as the area that you posted in your photo.
I have also rolled felt over penetrations as you describe to keep the roof water tight overnight. There is no carbon monoxide produced as you stated and you are not going to die in your sleep.
And I have also had neighbors who were purported "ex roofers" monitor and critique the work as it was being performed. The purported neighbor "ex roofers" where all knows who didn't know there azz from a hole in the ground. 
You used the word "nitpicky" to describe yourself. I'm sorry but I call into question your being completely transparent about your role in fueling this fire. 
Actually I feel sorry for the next guy who comes in to complete the job with you, your husband and the "ex roofer" neighbors all sitting in the yard in lounge chairs directing the professionals on all the things they are doing wrong.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

roofrite said:


> photosbyjv
> 
> I see from the contract you posted it does state that the old felt will be removed. I also spec out in my contracts whether the old felt is to be removed or not. Depending on what part of the country your from stripping the roof down to the bare decking may or may not be S.O.P.
> I have had occasions where the HO specified that they wanted the old roofing material stripped down to the bare decking and when the crew began working they weren't removing the old felt. In all cases it was either caught by myself, a field supervisor or the HO. If I caught it, it was corrected.
> ...


First off, I am not sure what your occupation is BUT take a look at this...
*Gas-Fired Water Heaters:*








Gas-fired water heaters have a gas burner located below the tank, a thermostatic switch, a gas valve and a pilot light. The thermostat will open the gas valve when it senses the water temperature at the bottom of the tank has dropped below the present limit. Gas flows to the burner and is ignited by the pilot light, heating the tank from below. In addition, the hot exhaust gases are vented through a hollow core in the center of the tank to help heat the water. The exhaust is then passed into the draft hood and to the vent connector where it is discharged to a chimney flue.







Once the water temperature reaches the set limit of 120° F to 140° F, the gas valve is closed and the burner is turned off.







Note: Fuel-fired systems heat the water by heating the tank. As a result, the tank experiences more wear and tear than with an internal electric heat source. In addition, proper venting of the exhaust is always important to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning. Be sure that the vent/exhaust system is properly installed at a positive angle (upward slope).
found on this website...... http://www.thehome-inspection.com/waterheater.htm.
Next when I say that I am nitpicky, that is just meaning when I know I am getting screwed I get all the evidence I can, and I do not see where you can think that I have fueled this fire when they, the hired workers were destroying my home more than it already was(rotten wood). They were trying to pull a fast one over my head and my neighbor who was a roofer for 4 years actually is still in contracting business as we speak. And you know what I think if more HO watched the work being done on their homes more of this kind of thing would be caught. And it would not be so easy for those kind of people to get over us paying customers. I do not work, I am a stay at home mom and I was not sitting in a lounge chair watching them, I did not start watching them until I saw through the front window that they were carrying shingles onto the rooftop without changing any wood nor did they have any wood to change the places we knew needed to be. So before I get all worked up over you, let me just close with saying know your facts before you speak.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Why doesn't your neighbor help you out? Why didn't he do it in the first place?


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Good luck on your meeting today with the contractor.

I hope that he sees the light and offers to resolve the situation in a amenable fashion, but to sort of twist his arm to get to that point, please try to keep the tone civil and work towards a resolution.

At this point, devoid yourselves of any emotional ties you have and look at the oncoming meeting as an objective and unbiased outsider, but at the same time, present your case and issues with all of your documentation to enlighten the person who comes out to attempt to either resolve the situation, or attempts to coerce you into being sheepishly bull-dozed over, which I am confident that you will not allow to happen.

At the beginning of the meeting, mention that you have substantial issues that you will not accept and point out that you have lost any faith in their ability to provide the workmanship as originally contracted for.

Your purpose of this meeting will be to get him to consider, not make a final decision, but just to consider the best way to mitigate further damages to yourself and to their company.

Have a number in mind that is reasonable, but be ready to make amends to change that dollar amount if it means that this matter can be put to rest quickly without further negotiations and aggravation.

Remember, No One is coming out of this situation a winner. The best that both parties can attempt to conjure up through these negotiations, is to have a conclusion that you both can live with. 

Know your rights and inform them that you will be willing to take this to the next legal steps required if there is no prompt resolution made, but be willing to back off from that harsher move, if it means that you can be done with the mess in dealing with them.

Leave your own ego's in check and if the other party becomes confrontational, suggest that you all take a 10-15 minute break to cool down to be able to come back to the bargaining table to continue the dialog, even if one party is completely belligerent for a brief period of time. Do not get offended. Take a time out and re-collect the more neutral attitude and still work towards the end goal.

Ed


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

MJW, he didn't do it in the first place because 1 we didn't ask him to and 2 because he works fulltime with a construction company doing remodeling work.

Ed, the owner of this company knows because it came from his mouth "you don't trust us", and i answered him " no , i don't trust none of you because of all the lies that have been tried to be slipped by me, can you blame me for not trusting any of you?" So he knows, how can you allow someone you can't trust to continue working on your job? It just makes no sense at all.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I understand that.

Now, the entire meeting is all about arriving at a mutually agreeable resolution.

Keep that in mind and don't worry about the finger pointing as far as this stage is concerned.

You and he have the option to turn this into a non-conclusive argument or for it to put the matter behind you with a meeting of the minds to come up with a conclusion to your nightmare.

This meeting is not to lie blame, but to agree to dissolve the contractual relationship, with somewhere near a fair dispersement of the finances being accommodated for, agreed to and followed up on in a timely manner.

Ed


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

roofrite said:


> photosbyjv
> 
> I see from the contract you posted it does state that the old felt will be removed. I also spec out in my contracts whether the old felt is to be removed or not. Depending on what part of the country your from stripping the roof down to the bare decking may or may not be S.O.P.
> I have had occasions where the HO specified that they wanted the old roofing material stripped down to the bare decking and when the crew began working they weren't removing the old felt. In all cases it was either caught by myself, a field supervisor or the HO. If I caught it, it was corrected.
> ...


lmao, feel sorry for your customers with an attitude like yours, Don't worry ma'm the poison won't kill you in just one night of breathing it in, it takes much much longer, maybe two nights? a week??
You sound like you might be the roofer in question, are you?


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

photosbyvj said:


> First off, I am not sure what your occupation is BUT take a look at this...
> *Gas-Fired Water Heaters:*
> 
> 
> ...


Your right, if people 'home owners' would take the time to inspect the work of the roofers they hire as their installing the materials it would be much easier for us guys who actually take pride in our workmanship to keep a full schedule of work.
It's hard to compete price wise with contractors who skip certain installment procedures simply because they know they won't be around anymore by the time the skip procedures start leaking or burning up the shingles.
I am ok with the 'ex-roofers' watching me and my guys work and will often joke with them about helping us out.
I am ok with nit-picky home owners as well, they normally have better paying jobs because they want everything done right and installed to last.

Make sure to take a moment to relax and be as calm as possible before you meet the roofer, you do not want to end up arguing with this guy, be firm but calm.
Let him tell his side of the story as he see's it than you do the same.
Let him offer a solution and go from there.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I agree with you Sly, but what is the need for inspection by the homeowner. They should have hired someone they trusted in the first place.

To be honest, I really don't understand this story.........The neighbor has time to come over, fix things, and point out things, but the homeowner didn't hire him for the job.

Aside from hacks cutting corners with your project, others cut corners with cheap labor. Both make the competent contractors look bad initially to a price shopper.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

*I'm the husband.*

Just to give you guys a heads up on this.
I'm home from offshore and called the owner who said he was sick and couldn't make it yesterday that he would be here around 9 am central time today.We already have three other estamates on finishing the job and checked with real good references on one guy we liked.
As for what i'm seeing I dont trust the guys first crew for sure and I think i'd be having a divorce if I let him send another crew out here,lol.
I'm a little more calm than my wife when it comes to things like this so I feel good that he and I can come to some understanding.
We found the place they get their materials and have a retail price of everything new that is setting on the ground,with the money already given to the contractor we should have around $1500 left over.I'm willing to work with him on this and not have to go to court or drag his name all in the dirt.

I'll post up after the meeting.Again thanks for all the points of veiws on this being pro or negative for us.This is why we came here to be able to see it from all sides and make sure we weren't over looking things just because we are upset with the contractor.


Talked to the owner he is going back to his office to figure out how much of the $1500 he will offer us back.Think he is also going to write another contract saying we cant file a complant and all.
I'll post back after hearing from him.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

Photo, sounds like things are going to turn out ok. Two more things you might want to take into consideration before finalization; 1) obtain a Lien Release, 2) if possible, make sure the contractor has paid for the materials.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

You're getting good advice here. I can't get over the osb being 5" off from the hip rafter.


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

rwa said:


> Photo, sounds like things are going to turn out ok. Two more things you might want to take into consideration before finalization; 1) obtain a Lien Release, 2) if possible, make sure the contractor has paid for the materials.


 
Thanks for your help rwa and all who have gave us pointers on this matter.
I'd like to say that:
salesman F
inatallers F
owner A-

After talking to the owner with a level head we came up with them giving us a check minus the New materials we have and the labor for taking off the old shingles.:thumbup:We also signed a paper stating the end of the contract.

We have four estimates now and the one we like the most we called four references on him and all said he was a stand up guy and did great work.He did say his crew was a mexican crew but we are more than welcome with the neighbor to pull up some lawn chairs drink beer and watch them all we want,lol.

Only thing wrong is he said he couldn't start till next week being his work schedule,which is good in away that he has this much work that other people are using him (the other peoplesaid they could start in the morning and have been calling back asking if we are ready yet,lol)

Thanks again for all the help here on the forum and will be checking the forum out before our next project (drywall).


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## johnnyboy (Oct 8, 2007)

sorry about the trouble you've had but for anyone else reading... NEVER PAY A DIME UP FRONT AND GET IT IN WRITING! I've always told anyone who wanted cash upfront to take a hike. If they don't have a line of credit somewhere they're worthless to begin with. A contract is good as gold for them and you. Once they get your money... that's it.


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

That is a great outcome. Daddy use to say, "Its not what you did, its what you do next." Sounds like the owner understands that well. Hopefully you will not have to endure any of these type problems when you do your drywall project. If you do, let us know and we will try to help.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

johnnyboy said:


> sorry about the trouble you've had but for anyone else reading... NEVER PAY A DIME UP FRONT AND GET IT IN WRITING! I've always told anyone who wanted cash upfront to take a hike. If they don't have a line of credit somewhere they're worthless to begin with. A contract is good as gold for them and you. Once they get your money... that's it.


In most cases if a client does not want to make a reasonable deposit that is a red flag to the contractor. That said 50% is not reasonable and you should run from anyone requiring more than 30% down at contract signing. 

Johnnyboy, running on credit is bad business practice, it is always preferable to operate on a cash basis as you pay no interest. It is also preferable to finance as little of a job as possible. The more of my money I have to put up to do a job for someone the higher my risk factor. The higher the risk factor, the more I am going to charge. These are basic business principles. In addition you will probably find contracts written in those situations to be front loaded with progress payments. 

Photo, 
I'm glad everything worked out for you.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

johnnyboy said:


> sorry about the trouble you've had but for anyone else reading... NEVER PAY A DIME UP FRONT AND GET IT IN WRITING! I've always told anyone who wanted cash upfront to take a hike. If they don't have a line of credit somewhere they're worthless to begin with. A contract is good as gold for them and you. Once they get your money... that's it.


If someone wants me to leave an opening in my schedule, I want a financial guarantee that they will not pull out at the last minute.

My employees would not like finding out the day before we were to start some job, that all of a sudden, they have to stay home for 1-3 days until I speak with the next home owner on the schedule to tell him we will be arriving.

1/3rd up front is valid if the contractor has been in business under the same business name and has a good reputation, along with a fist full of satisfied previous customer reference testimonials.

10% is too much for someone using a cell phone as the only business line and a PO Box as their business address.

Ed

Ed


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

Once again just would like to really really thank all of you guys for the help, it was a great tool for my husband and I in taking steps to get this resolved! We thought we had a good company, and not sure if people just don't watch them or if they really are that good but it seems there were no complaints on file with them. One thing I do know they were about to pull a fast one on us. On yesterday, because I am a very hotheaded person, I let my husband handle talking things over with the owner without me being present and we are very thankful that he was so willing to be fair with us, I think partly that was on account of all their wrongs. We did sign a contract with the company that my husband said we had called references on and thankfully will be having our work done and hopefully completed all in one day on tomorrow!! yeeeeaaaaa because we have lots of rain coming this way in the beginning of next week! Once they are done I will post a photo to show you guys our results which I am stolked to see! Can't wait. But just really wanted to say a big THANKS to all you guys who helped!


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## photosbyvj (Jul 18, 2009)

*The Finishing Result*

Sorry I didn't get these up sooner! But here you go, this is our roof now completed, ready for this? In one day they arrived here at about 6 am and at 4:30 they were cleaning up the mess that they had. Amazing!!! I wish I had found these people first! Thanks again to everyone who has helped with this problem!! :thumbsup:


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## rwa (May 10, 2009)

and just in time for all of us to come by for jambalaya .. congrats, glad your misery had a good ending


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

I'm glad you got your situation worked out........

Don't take this the wrong way. I just take observations on the average person and their logic when it comes to our trades........

Notice how the presence of possible illegal aliens (also possibly under paid and not treated fairly)and giving them our money seems to escape people's minds when the work is "done in one day".


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