# Underlay - Right decision because $$? protecto roofgard vs deck armor weather watch



## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

Hello, a couple questions for you all regarding my roof underlay.

*Question 1: Should I save 200 bucks by going option A? (or put another way, are the GAF products worth the extra money?) *

Option A
$240
ProTecto Standard Ice and Water 
Roofgard - Cool Grey 

Option B 
$460
Deck Armor
WeatherWatch 2.0

*Question 2: I would prefer not to overlap the 3 feet of ice and water shield with the roofdeck underlay ...do I have to? * 
I ask because the size of my roof is just on the cusp where if I didn't overlap, I wouldn't have to buy another roll of syn underlay.

Much Thanks, Shawn


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

How do you only save $200 by not using GAF Deck Armor?

My cost is about $220 for one roll and I get good prices.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Why all the concern about the underlay? The roof is what counts. Water gets past the roof and no underlay will keep it out of the house. What are we missing here?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

tinner666 said:


> Why all the concern about the underlay? The roof is what counts. Water gets past the roof and no underlay will keep it out of the house. What are we missing here?


Because, Frank, it appears nowadays everyone expects their roofs to leak and are depending on the underlayment to stop it. Times are a-changin' I guess.


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## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

*Reply to ParagonEx*

GAF WeatherWatch 2.0 ($78/roll, 2 rolls for 120 foot) *$156.00* 
GAF Deck Armor 4 Square Roll($97.50/roll, 3 rolls for 1200 square feet coverage) *$292.50*

ProTecto Ice & Water ($53/roll, 2 rools for 120 foot) *$106*
RoofGard-Cool Grey ($134.roll, 1 roll for 1000 sq. ft coverage) *$134*

Also, I'm in Canada.


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## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

*In Reply to Tinner666*

*"Why all the concern with underlay? ? The roof is what counts. Water gets past the roof and no underlay will keep it out of the house. "* 

Let's just assume by my post that I have decided I'm using underlay. Let's also assume that I decided I didn't want felt. Otherwise, I probably would have put felt up there as an option right? Let's also assume that I have narrowed it down to two options (A & B from above). Oh wait, we don't have to assume any of that cause I spelled it out in my original post by posting my exact dilemma and asked for comments on it. What am I supposed to take from your reply, that with you extensive knowledge of my roof, the pitch, the roof deck itself, the venting... - that you recommend no underlay at all?

*"What are we missing here?"*

1.That you are on a forum where you might get people who are new to roofing who are genuinely doing their best and looking for solid advice. 
2. Chiming in with sarcastic know-it-all comments really doesn't help anything, although i bet it makes you feel superior for a moment or two.
3. That you are a condescending arsehole.

You need to grow up.


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## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

*In reply to OldNBroken*

*"Because, Frank, it appears nowadays everyone expects their roofs to leak and are depending on the underlayment to stop it. Times are a-changin' I guess."*

What? Are you the Laurel to his Hardy? Why don't you and Frank get a private thread where you can reminisce about the days when you could drink a six pack with a smoke hanging out your mouth while installing asbestos insulate after coating walls in lead paint.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

You're right Geez. Sorry I asked for clarification. I'll leave it to the experts.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Geeze said:


> *In Reply to Tinner666*
> 
> *"Why all the concern with underlay? ? The roof is what counts. Water gets past the roof and no underlay will keep it out of the house. "*
> 
> ...


Wow! You are name calling and you are telling Tinner to grow up


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Geeze said:


> *In reply to OldNBroken*
> 
> *"Because, Frank, it appears nowadays everyone expects their roofs to leak and are depending on the underlayment to stop it. Times are a-changin' I guess."*
> 
> What? Are you the Laurel to his Hardy? Why don't you and Frank get a private thread where you can reminisce about the days when you could drink a six pack with a smoke hanging out your mouth while installing asbestos insulate after coating walls in lead paint.


You know ...life doesn't have to be as hard as you're making it..
You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

I was unaware that Deck Armor came in anything less than a 10 square roll.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

tinner666 said:


> You're right Geez. Sorry I asked for clarification. I'll leave it to the experts.


This place can be quite entertaining at times. :laughing:


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

Wow
I did not even get time to get my popcorn popped for this one.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I too prefer synthetics but the roof layer (as said by Tinner) is the primary barrier and a great underlayment did a good roof not make.

I am not a huge fan of Deck Armor as I think the whole breathable aspect is BS. There are much cheaper synthetics out there if you really want to go that route. Ventilation is always at the envelope layer and a breathable underlayment serves no purpose and can actually be a detraction.

BTW...Tinner and was not being sarcastic and both he and OldNBroken have been helping people on these forums for longer than I can remember. You clearly misunderstood their responses (OldNBroken's was a light hearted joke for Tinner).

You won't find a collection of more skilled and helpful people than Tinner, OldNBroken, and Paragon.


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

You need the GAF stuff. I mean, it's the most expensive so it has to be better, right?

Q for ya Geeze, do you know why manufacturers want underlay installed?


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## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

I love to reply to each of you individually but I got one straight answer from Windows on Wash - which seems to be if I'm convinced I need to go with syn underlay, don't shell out more than I have to. Thanks.

Lessons and ideas we can all take away from this thread:

1. Don't use underlay at all. 
2. Or use cheapest felt you can find.
3. Or wait, no one has actually come out and said either of those..so let's just move on to #4.
4. Syn underlays are add-ons SOLELY to make money. Absolutely no value in having it installed at all.
5. The moon landing was faked.
6. Warranty requirements are not a concern.
7. DIY Chatroomer's are surprised when people are called out for unhelpful responses.
8. Experts can be arseholes. In fact, for some experts, their only price is putting up with them.
9. Sometimes you can use honey to get what you need and sometimes you can let people walk on you to get what you need. We each have to figure out our own line in the sand.
10. You can not joke (or use a certain tone) to a person you've known for two paragraphs in the same way you can with someone you've known for years - it can make you seem like a condescending arsehole.
11. People who are trying to overcome their doormat tendencies can overreact to the slightest hint of superior attitudeness.
12. It's never just black or white..usually a shade of grey. Also known as, Your opinion is equally valid from a different perspective. Also known as, I don't know everything, so maybe synthetic underlay is what you need, I'll just stick to the question and answer it, or move on and ignore you're post. 
13. The Peanut gallery enjoys the irritation of others.
14. A little of #8 and a little of #11 equals an entertaining thread.

Peace out.


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

Aww man, I fell asleep.

Anyways Geeze, neither of us said do NOT use underlayment. It is a critical part of a roofing system. What we were both getting at, granted sarcastically, is that too many people nowadays rely on the underlayment to keep mother nature at bay. 

How about I re-word it. A good roofer with a good shingle can put newspaper under it and you will have a solid roof for years to come. I also knew this thread would get numerous responses from numerous good roofers and all would be our personally opinions.

To answer your question though. DekArmor to synthetics is like Grace Vycor to ice/water shield: they are both very very good products however there are many other materials that will serve the same purpose for a fraction of the price.

In roofing, quality installation is 90% of the job.

And, I am sorry, I was not aware you had doormat tendencies. My apologies :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Geeze (May 16, 2012)

Thanks OldnBroken. Have done a few roofs as a labourer, never planned one out. Whatever was there, I put on without wondering about specific material or prices. Doing my parents roof and am learning more about the whys and whats, but for a relatively inexperienced guy with a tendency to overthink it is overwhelming. Getting all stressed out so i can save them a few bucks here or there. Sheesh. I'm little embarrassed on the way I reacted - sorry. You to Tinner - sorry.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

It's OK Geeze. Here's a bit of reading material to lighten the air.

*The Underlay Story*

The execs at a major shingle manufacturer felt they needed to increase sales somehow. Memos were sent to all departments in search of ideas.
Some months went by and a fellow in marketing wanted to present an idea. A couple, really.
He met with the execs one day and said “Let’s sell felt. The only people in the market are Bird and JM.”
The execs all spoke up and said their entire market share there was new construction! “Only builders buy the felt to keep their projects dry until the roofers come and install the shingles. The roofers are often installing our shingles without felt. And it can’t be used on a re roof. What the heck do we want to sell felt for? The only felt we need is the 12” rag for our shingles. There will never be a need or market for us there. It could open us up to some new liability! And it isn‘t used under tin! Follansbee will void their warranty if they find felt under tin. We can‘t sell it there. There isn’t a roof in the world that requires felt…. How are you planning on selling THAT?” Get out of here with that hair-brained scheme!”
“Please! Just give me a minute and you’ll see the logic! Please!”
“You have 10 minutes.”
“Here’s the deal. Our 15 year shingles regularly last 17-22 years minimum. And our 5 year warranty never needs to be honored, right?”
Nods, and “yeses” from the execs. ‘So?”
“ We will need to market ourselves as a leader to be envied. Let’s offer a ’7 year’ warranty ’if’ installers use our felt under our shingles! It’s a win-win. The shingles will go the term with or without the felt, but we can open up a whole new market and give glossy brochures to dealers to hand to installers and it only costs us pennies. The installers will do our marketing for us! We’ll always be able to ‘prove’ installation error if any warranty issues ever occur anyway. We can’t lose….It‘s a win-win and we get a larger market share all around.” 
“Research is showing that anybody less than 50 year old gets caught up in the hype that glossy brochures, TV ads, and radio ads spout. Any glossy ads we print will be taken as gospel. And it’s real easy to brainwash people if we were to do TV ads. Ignorant people soak them up like sponges! Older people tend to take ads with a grain of salt and figure that if it‘s worth being on TV, it‘ll be announced during the news as a news item. They seem to know the difference.”
“The established and older roofers will never fall for that line.., but we could give it a try for a limited period of time. It’s your job on the line though!”
“No problem Boss. We’ve been looking hard into this and we believe some hard pressed companies will use the ploy to increase their sales. And the newcomers to the roofing industry won’t know any better anyway. We won’t tool up for this, we’ll order from other makers and have our names stamped on the rolls. If this takes off, we’ll see about tooling up to make it ourselves, maybe. Who knows for sure. I do believe we can even make a market for it in the metal roofing side of things. Bill, Bob, myself a couple of others are looking into now.” 
“Joe and a small team are working on their own time to see if they can come up with some form of sticky felt. They heard a rumor that a company is working on a product that can be used on eaves to help with ice-dam issues. If it’s as good as rumor has it, even jacklegs will be able to do roofs with too many leaks further helping us avoid nay warranty issues. If it has merit, we we can come up with a marketing gimmick for it too.”
“Just think ‘underlay’ and we’ll market the term and use it all the time until people start forgetting the roof itself and the underlay becomes the priority. Like I mentioned before, there is plenty up sell potential here and no liability beyond the pennies on the dollar we’re already liable for anyway. How can we lose?”
“OK, we’ll also have legal look into all facets before anything goes public! One slip and you’re fired!”
“Remember, this will have nothing to do with roof performance, it’s all about marketing! The New buzzword will be ‘Underlay!’ We will be working on selling an underlay for other standard systems like EPDM, TPO, and the like. It’ll be a harder sell, but if they’ll buy the one idea, I believe that in time we can sell them the other.”


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

ROFLMAO Frank, exactly how much time did you spend on that jewel? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## bcdemon (Jul 12, 2010)

Geeze said:


> GAF Deck Armor 4 Square Roll
> Also, I'm in Canada.


I'm in Canada as well and I have never seen a 400 sq ft roll of Deck Armor.
Just curious where you would buy that.


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## packer_rich (Jan 16, 2011)

You came to a forum looking for advice, and you got it. Some here believed that the options you started with were not your best choices. They explained this in their own way. Maybe condecending, maybe not. Maybe sarcastic, maybe not. Take the info you can use and leave the rest. This thread may have useful info for someone else in the future. Someone who has not already narrowed down their options. Sorry if you thought the forum was just to address your own particular situation, but others have been coming here for a long time, including me, to find answers in old threads. Good luck to you and congratulations on learning more by DIY>


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Not long OB. I just complied some interoffice memos from a couple of the larger shingle manufacturers.:laughing:


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