# Valspar Duramax Paint



## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

You can thin with clean water, XIM Latex Extender, or Floetrol. XIM is widely reputed to be far better than Floetrol, but Floetrol is on a lot more store shelves.


----------



## cdaniels (Dec 27, 2012)

Pour about a third in a clean gallon can, thin with water just enough it flows really good and use a good brush, not some economy tapered filament piece of trash. Purdy or Wooster and it will level out fine. Long, smooth strokes.


----------



## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

A stiffer brush can help with thicker paint, too.


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Ringmaster said:


> I used the Valspar Duramax Paint with a "Tapered Filament" brush, The paint is so thick, that I could not get the brush marks to flow out; and, the Instructions state "Do not Thin."


When you see the instruction "Do Not Thin" on a can of paint, you need to know exactly what it means.

It means that the company that made the product couldn't get it to flow and level properly without exceeding the EPA rules for VOC emissions. In that case, the only way left for the company to reduce the amount of solvent that evaporates from the paint as it dries is to simply put less solvent in the paint to begin with. They know the paint won't spread and level as it should, but at least it gets them under the EPA VOC rules so that they can still sell the product.

And, then they slap the wording "Do Not Thin." on the can so that (MOST) people won't thin out the product by adding their own solvent. That's the only way the EPA will let the company sell that product. So, to be clear, that Do Not Thin instruction was put on the can as a requirement to satisfy the EPA, not as a recommendation by Valspar. Were it up to Valspar, the wording would be:

"We couldn't get this paint to spread and level properly and still meet the EPA requirements on VOC emissions. So, in order to still be allowed to sell this product, we simply put less VOC's in it to begin with. Now it's up to you to thin it with a latex paint coalescing solvent before you use it. Otherwise the paint will be so thick that you won't be able to get the brush marks to flow out."

If CyrusR says that XIM Latex Extender works well, then I'd try using that first instead of water. The EPA would not be concerned about too much H2O evaporating from the paint.


----------



## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> When you see the instruction "Do Not Thin" on a can of paint, you need to know exactly what it means.
> 
> It means that the company that made the product couldn't get it to flow and level properly without exceeding the EPA rules for VOC emissions. In that case, the only way left for the company to reduce the amount of solvent that evaporates from the paint as it dries is to simply put less solvent in the paint to begin with. They know the paint won't spread and level as it should, but at least it gets them under the EPA VOC rules so that they can still sell the product.
> 
> ...


And this is why oil paint sucks now. 

I think particularly with water-based exterior paint that the paint companies make stuff the consistency of pudding it to make it easier, or even make it possible, to put on a thick enough coat to meet their marketing claims about one coat coverage.


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Well, all of the chemical companies involved with making latex paint resins and coalescing solvents are pouring a lot of money into developing water based paints that are as durable as the old alkyd and alkyd based polyurethane paints WERE.

But, the bottom line is that if the chemists don't provide a solution, the only option a company might have to lower the VOC emissions from their paint is to simply put less VOC's into it in the first place. What's not there to begin with can't evaporate out. The paint is thick as a brick, doesn't spread well and won't level worth a spit, but it'll meet the EPA guidelines, and that's all that matters when it comes to being able to sell the paint legally.

A "Do Not Thin" sticker or text on the label of any paint or coating is a warning that you're going to need to thin the stuff to get it to work the way it was meant to.

PS:
If this XIM Latex Extender works, it's because it's a coalescing solvent that helps latex paints form proper films. That is, it's the VOC's that weren't put in at the factory. But, I think EPA rules only apply to PAINTS, and XIM Latex Extender isn't a paint, so the EPA rules don't apply to it. Someone found a way to get rich by going around the law.


----------



## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I understand most of what you said BUT isn't the solvent in latex basically water (which i know is not totally correct) contains no voc's how would this affect the EPA requirements when you added water to thin it.


----------



## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

ToolSeeker said:


> I understand most of what you said BUT isn't the solvent in latex basically water (which i know is not totally correct) contains no voc's how would this affect the EPA requirements when you added water to thin it.


Toolseeker:

That's an excellent question.

In a nutshell, the VOC's in latex primers and paints are the coalescing solvents, not the water.

But, if you want to know more, read on...

The best way to think about it is as follows:

Latex paint is a SLURRY of solids suspended in a liquid. In this case, however, there are three different kinds of solids suspended in a mixture of two liquids.

The three solids are:

1. The latex paint resins: These are hard spherical clear and colourless plastic particles made of either:
a) polyvinyl acetate (which is what white wood glue is)
b) polymethyl methacrylate (which is what Plexiglas is), or
c) polystyrenated acrylic resins (which is what Zinsser Bullseye 123 uses).
The latex resins are the most expensive component of a paint, which is why high gloss paints cost more than flat paints. In a flat paint, more of the expensive plastic resins are replaced with relatively inexpensive extender pigments.

2. Coloured pigments. Basically, these consist of the titanium dioxide added at the factory to make the tint base white and any coloured pigments in the colourants added to the paint to tint it to the right colour at the point of sale.

3. Extender pigments, which are particles of talc, chaulk, pulverized quartz sand and other materials. These materials are pulverized down to various grades of coarseness and added in various amounts to lower the gloss of a paint. So, flat paints would contain not only more extender pigment than gloss paints, but they would use more coarsely ground extender pigments.

All three of the above are solid particles suspended in the liquid in the paint can.

The liquids are:

4. Water, and

5. A coalescing solvent (typically a product called "Texanol" made by the Eastman Chemical Company). Coalescing solvents are either alcohols or alcohol esters which are soluble in water, but are fairly low "volatility", which means they don't evaporate very fast. It's THIS STUFF that the EPA is concerned about.

Side note: (There is actually a third liquid involved. The colourants added when tinting the paint to the right colour in the paint store consist of coloured pigments suspended in glycerine. They use glycerine because it's equally soluble in both water and mineral spirits, so it can be used to tint both oil based primers and water based paints and primers. So, glycerine is added when the paint is tinted to the desired colour. But, glycerine doesn't play any role in the process called "coalescence" by which latex paints form films, so it's in the paint, but it doesn't play any role in how the paint forms a proper film.)

NOW:

When you spread the latex paint on the wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates from it.

As the water evaporates, those plastic resins find themselves surrounded by the coalescing solvent at a steadily increasing concentration. The coalescing solvents soften the plastic resins so that they becomes very soft and sticky. If you ever get latex paint on your hands and don't wash it off right away you'll find that it becomes quite sticky before it dries up.

Once the latex resins in the paint film are soft and sticky enough, then the forces of capillary pressure and surface tension cause each plastic resin to stick to and pull on each of it's neighbors, so that what you have on the wall is a film of soft sticky plastic with the coloured and extender pigments suspended in it very much like the raisins in raisin bread.

Side note: (In clowds, it the forces capillary pressure and surface tension that cause tiny water particles to coalesce into large rain drops.)

Side note: (The reason why adding too much colourant can ruin a latex paint is that the glycerine added when tinting the paint is the last liquid to evaporate from the paint film. So, if there's too much glycerine in the paint film after the water evaporates, the concentration of coalescing solvent won't be high enough to soften the plastic resins sufficiently for proper film formation. It will have been diluted by the glycerine.)

Side note: (The reason why latex paints will typically have a minimum application temperature of 50 degrees Farenheit is that the plastic resins get harder when they get cold, and below 50 deg. F, the coalescing solvent concentration might not be sufficient to soften the plastic resins sufficiently for proper film formation.)


Anyhow, that process by which the soft sticky latex particles stick to and pull on one another is called "coalescence", and it's during this period that the paint actually adheres to the wall. Once coalescense is complete, the paint film consists of a solid continuous film of plastic with the coloured and extender pigments suspended within the film.

After coalescence is complete, the coalescing solvents then evaporate from the soft sticky paint film over the next day or two, thereby filling the room with that "freshly painted smell". As the coalescing solvents evaporate from the paint, the plastic hardens back up again to the same hardness the paint resins were when they were in the can. Also, as the coalescing solvents evaporate from the plastic, the plastic loses it's stickiness.

The result is a clear plastic film on the wall that gets it's colour from all of the different coloured pigments suspended in the paint film and whose surface roughness is determined by the amount and fineness of grind of the extender pigments suspended in the paint film.

(Depending on temperature, the glycerine added when tinting the paint to the right colour can take up to a month to evaporate completely from the paint film, but it's usually gone in 3 or 4 days.)

And, that's how latex primers and paints work.

Linseed oil based, alkyd and alkyd based polyurethane paints work by a completely different process.


----------



## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

painted


Nestor_Kelebay said:


> When you see the instruction "Do Not Thin" on a can of paint, you need to know exactly what it means.
> 
> It means that the company that made the product couldn't get it to flow and level properly without exceeding the EPA rules for VOC emissions. In that case, the only way left for the company to reduce the amount of solvent that evaporates from the paint as it dries is to simply put less solvent in the paint to begin with. They know the paint won't spread and level as it should, but at least it gets them under the EPA VOC rules so that they can still sell the product.
> 
> ...


There are flow additives that can be used that are VOC compliant, Valspar just doesn't use them in the Lowe's paint lines because they are somewhat expensive and they couldn't make their margins at the price they have to sell to Lowe's for.

There is a lot that can be done to make a can of paint apply better, it is usually just a matter of how much they have to cheapen a product to get their profit out of it. Look at how Accolade lays out. It has to comply with the same VOC regulations. They just charge a little more for it.

There is always a balance between quality, cost, and profit and that is the big reason the Duramax doesn't brush worth a crap. I painted half of a garage door with two coats of Duramax a few years ago and the other half with a coat of California Troubleshooter acrylic primer and 2010 topcoat. Guess which one looks like it was put on with a mop and is peeling like crazy already.


----------



## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

ToolSeeker said:


> I understand most of what you said BUT isn't the solvent in latex basically water (which i know is not totally correct) contains no voc's how would this affect the EPA requirements when you added water to thin it.


According to the SCAQMD, as soon as water comes into contact with any paint product, it becomes a VOC. My store had to pay a $500.00 fine for not putting an air tight lid on the water can in our spray booth that we used to clean our W/R paint guns.


----------

