# "Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??



## manhattan42

You need new windows.

Nothing else to be said.


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## joed

The reason there is fog inside the window is because the seal is broken. Even if they defog it, it isn't a thermal window anymore. You need a new window.


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## fhivinylwindows

All it takes is a pin hole to leak moist air into your window. One small pin hole in your 51+51+61+61 inches. If you need a 3rd opinion, get a new window.

Buy one with a lifetime glass warranty.


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## jgiedt

*Yes! Window defogging does work, and well.*

First of all, you do not need a new window if just the insulated glass unit is foggy. There is MUCH more to be said! You can make the repair by replacing the insulated glass unit alone and retain the sash and frame assembly, or you can use the defog repair method you mentioned.

Second, moisture inside a window does not mean the seal has broken. A seal *may* have broken or it may not. The secondary seal of an insulated glass unit is not impervious to air. This is one reason why most every insulated glass unit has a moisture control product inside- a dessicant to absorb the inevitable moisture that will enter every ig during its lifespan. Often the moisture is present because the insulated glass has reached its moisture threshold; there is more moisture inside the glass than the dessicant can effectively absorb and hide. 

Take an ice cube and place it on the "clear" window glass of similar age and design for between :45-1 min. You just lowered the dew point at that spot. Now wipe away the moisture from the outside of the glass. You'll probably find that there is also a moisture spot inbetween the glass too that you cannot wipe away. WoW! Your "clear" window has moisture in it! Where is the seal broken though? Hmmm?

Third, when properly defogged using the methods of the companies you listed in your question, the moist air has been replaced with a still, dry air space and the insulation ability of the window has been greatly improved from the wet condition and will insulate very near its newly manufactured state.

I've got six repaired windows in my own home and will continue to use this defog repair method to maintain my insulated glass as the rest of them fail. It has worked great! 

If you do not have a company in your area to make this repair, then the intermediate cost option would be to have a glass company replace the insulating glass in your window. Buying a whole new window is an option, but may not be necessary unless you are unhappy with the window style or function.

'hope this helps.


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## MikeR

*How long defogged?*

Hi jgiedt,

You mentioned you have six windows in your home that were defogged?

How long have they held up so far?

I have a similar problem in my house with some large (and large $$ replace, uuggh...) windows.

Thanks.

Mike R
Granite Bay, CA (sacramento)


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## jgiedt

I did them in phases, as they fogged. The first three or four has been 3 years. The others are a year or so. No problems. They look great. Simple science on gas in enclosed containers plus the fact that dry air insulates. Why would they all of a sudden NOT hold up? I like it!



MikeR said:


> Hi jgiedt,
> 
> You mentioned you have six windows in your home that were defogged?
> 
> How long have they held up so far?
> 
> I have a similar problem in my house with some large (and large $$ replace, uuggh...) windows.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike R
> Granite Bay, CA (sacramento)


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## oberon

*fixing windows*

Condensation between the lites in an IGU is a cosmetic issue. Unless there is argon loss or there is corrosion of the LowE coating, there is no difference in energy performance between an insulating glass unit with condensation and one without condensation between the lites.

There is a common misconception that all dual panes are gas filled with something other than air – and technically air is a gas of course - when in fact less than half of dual pane windows manufactured today have an argon (or other) gas infill between the lites. 

There is very little likelihood that an older dual pane window ever had a gas infill because until the past few years very few dual pane IGU's were filled with argon. And many of those that were filled probably lost the argon fill years ago due to migration thru the (mostly obsolete) materials that were used to seal the unit at that time. 

Gas escaping from the interior of the IGU does not cause fogging. Fogging is almost always (with a few rare exceptions) caused by moisture penetrating the seal between the two glass panes. 

If anyone is interested, I can make this very long and technical, but for a quick answer, repairing a “failed” IGU is never a DIY project.

There are a number of companies out there that are advertising that they can clear up foggy IGU’s. In some cases they can give the appearance of “fixing” the IGU in the right circumstances. 

The condensation between the lites is almost always caused by an excess of moisture that has entered the space because of a blown seal. The IGU “repair” does not take into account the seal failure and does nothing for it. The IGU repair (or “fog-out”) folks simply arrange for the IGU to evacuate the excess moisture by drilling holes in the glass and placing a one-way valve that works with natural heating and cooling cycles to replace the air within the IGU airspace. Basically, air comes in thru the breach in the seal and goes out thru the one-way valve. 

Again, I can get much more technical on how and why this works – although the “fog-out” guys (and if “fog-out” happens to be a trademark or use name of a particular company I am not aware of it – if so, then I am using it generically and mean no comment for or against a particular company or product) have all sorts of interesting claims on their various sites – often exaggerated and a few that are simply incorrect – concerning the performance of a typical IG window system. 

Still, the basic concept is sound – with certain restrictions it may be possible to clear up the condensation between the lites of an IGU using the method that they promote. Again, they don’t do anything particularly earth-shattering other than allow air movement between the lites which allows the moist air to escape from between the panes – much the same as a single pane acts with a storm window.


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## NickD

*" You need new windows."

*Thought this was a DIY board with real tips, am a retired engineer, not one of those guys that sat behind a desk, have a complete metal, wood, and electronics shop and like to do everything myself. For one thing, a means to beat the credit card companies and the IRS, if some guy is charging you 70 bucks an hour for something you can do yourself, you actually end up paying over twice the price as you are using post tax dollars, and if you have to pay interest, just another slap in your pocket book. I built my own home in 1970 while carrying on a full time job, with good buying and hard work, had it paid off in three years. Also do all my own vehicle work, but do have my Ram reflashed now at the dealer, not about to pay $7,500.00 for the equipment required just for a particular brand of vehicle. Think this reflashing is crazy.

Another thing that is crazy is argon filled windows, I had to sell my own built home because of a job change and purchased my present home in 1985, it's paid off, been for, for some time, take good care of it, but also sharing your problems with foggy windows, I have six out of 45 panes that are foggy, was only four last year, two more this year.

Saving 60 t0 70% off the cost of new windows doesn't sound very good to me to have some guy come out to my home and make a mess out of it. Drilling a couple of holes is no big deal, I have the tools to get those holes to within +/- 0.0001" if I have to but they refuse to sell me those check valves. Then they claim to use a proprietary cleaning solution, what? Soap and water? Maybe even denatured alcohol, I have both air compressors, shop vacuums, and even a good sized vacuum pump and can experiment if need be. They talk about silica jel, I don't see that stuff in my windows.

And I don't throw away my dirty dishes either.

I feel like I was ripped off, not only by Koebe & Koebe that has no solutions, you are out of warranty, twenty years ago, they would sell direct to me, now it's strictly going to some lumber company that doesn't even have a parts book. They tell me to bring a window in and leave it there for a couple of weeks until the no-nothing rep comes around, how stupid do people think I and the rest of us are? And then to have to pay a huge markup on that stuff.

We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.

Then there is the building inspector to deal with, believe the main requirement to get these jobs besides being a brother-in-law to the mayor is to have an IQ less than 1.998. Ran into this about replacing the hot water heater, wanted to install one of these new high effeciency forced ventilated heaters. First I can't install one in the basement because the snow may getter higher than the PVC vents, but why to you permit forced ventilated furnaces in the basement? Duh!!! And why can't I raise these cheap pipes a couple of feet? Besides with my overhangs, no snow every gets near the house anyway. You just can't do that. But after finding about all the problems with these heaters, extra electrical, failure of the control mechanism, but to top everything else off including one a one year warranty on the Chinese made electronic garbage, they only save 20 therms per year at an initial installation cost of several hundreds more.

Where is the savings in either these water heaters or argon filled windows? It's stupid and downright criminal to the home owner, and what about the guy with a 30 year mortgage and every increasing property taxes and interest rates? Work your can off just to end up with a pile of junk?

There has to be a way where a guy can clean and reclaim these windows, after 23 years, they still look new, except for that stupid fog in between the glasses. If I find anything, and I am looking, will let you know, already thought about painting them black.


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## HandyPete

Greetings!

I live next door to a IGU manufacturer. He's going to get a big question from me today! My first thought is to change just the IGU. I see folks going into the shop and buying new units everyday. Expensive? not supposed to be. You can easily change the unit yourself with just a few hand tools. Check the phone book or Internet and find a glass distributer like PPG. Don't go down to the local glass shop or window company!

-- pete


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## kylemfk

just order the IGU from your local building supply house. Pop of the glazing beads cut out the old one pop in the new one, replace glazing bead w a little caulk and goodnight irene


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## oberon

NickD said:


> *" You need new windows."*
> 
> We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.


A 100% argon fill increases the thermal performance of an IG unit by 16%. A 50% argon fill increases the thermal perfomance of an IG unit by 8%.
It's a straight linear relationship.

Argon fill has nothing to do with moisture between the lites of an IG unit, windows with no argon can and do have seal failures. 

If I may ask, what is _solid insulated double thickness glass_ or _real insulated glass_?


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## Mr Chips

a friend of mine had one of these franchised services come to his house and do some windows. this was in spring of last year, by christmas time they fogged up worse than before. 

he would have been better off just covering the glass with $50 bills, still wouldn't be able to see out, but the view would have been much better


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## jupiter2000

*just had the guy here...*

just had the guy here associated with http://www.ccwwi.com.

first off, if its diy then i suggest you do so... kinda a rip off at $300 to do two skylights!

using a dremel type tool the guy put holes on the inside corners of the window (dependent of the size and ability to clean) then he sprayed some cleaning solution in and then a rinse. spray it in the top and suck it out the bottom.

"the installation of the 'micro' DefoggerTM valve and seal"
then he covered the wholes with clear plastic stickers! and the "valve" is another one of these stickers with grating holes... which will definitely keep larger insects out!

now, if this actually works then i will be happy but wish i paid less of course. i should have asked the guy how long it would take him before i agreed cause $300/hour is definitely a rip off!

i think given what everyone has said then i suspect whether this approach works or not is complex. for example, is the seal busted, how much of a leak does one have and is the leak allowing air from inside in or from outside.

i suspect it may be worth a try instead of replacement. if you diy and it fails then you are just out the time taken.


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## NickD

I checked with a local glass supply company, if I bring my casements in, he will measure them order the glass, and on the second two mile trip will install them for an average price of 100 bucks a window using new argon filled gas.

He will do that while I am waiting so I don't have to worry about rain if I pick a clear day. Windows are easy to snap out. Sounds like a much better deal than having some guy come over and drill holes.

I told him I have Koebe & Koebe windows, was to the factory and was told the frames were encased in epoxy. He said he has done many windows like that before and can replace the glass in about twenty minutes. Have no idea what his trick is, but willing to risk 100 bucks and find out, if okay, will bring the others in. I know he was in business for over 30 years.

Was questioning this 

Paul Lacey
Chief Development Officer
Crystal Clear Window Works USA, LLP
475 Craighead Street
Nashville, TN 37204
Tel: 615-385-0240 ext 102
Fax: 615-385-0304
www.getthefogout.com

Never got a quote from them, can't do it myself, but looks like it could be a waste of both time and money.

Has anyone found replacement argon filled glass on the web? Koebe tells me they buy it but wouldn't tell me where. I tried a search, found plenty of new windows for sale, but never just that double glass with the aluminum frame.


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## NickD

Seems like I am up the creek again, have the old style Kolbe & Kolbe windows with the solid wood inside and a snap in vinyl strip on the outside that cannot be removed without wrecking it. A Kolbe rep came over, said these windows are not argon filled, just e-glass, and when that vinyl shrinks moisture can get it. And that is why I have moisture between the glass. Said I should seal those cracks where that vinyl has shrunk to protect the good windows, they will last a lot longer, better do that.

He let me in on a secret, http://www.cardinalcorp.com/ is a key supplier to all the major window manufacturers and their plant is only 50 miles from me. I feel the only way I can save my old windows, if replacement glass doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, is to route out the inside of windows and use a matching window molding that I can easily make while sealing the outside. Otherwise can buy new panels with the glass already installed for about 200 bucks a piece, that can add up in a hurry.

Terrible how this country of ours as become, while natural gas is strictly a domestic product in the last four years the price here went up from 64 cents a therm to $1.56, it's criminal as natural gas has nothing to do with OPEC, man, are we getting screwed.


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## Brik

I just thought I would toss this in - The Handyguys did a how-to podcast/blog post on replacing an IGU in a modern window. We didn't cover every possible window type but hopefully provide enough information for a DIYer to be able to do this themselves. We also covered how to glaze old windows.


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## NickD

Thinking about looking at real estate built in the 30's, hey it's 80 years later and some of these old homes still look great yet. These new story book homes with a two story high bunch of windows as wide as the front wall facing south are sure going to give someone problems down the road, and well before that last payment is made. One neighbor in a new story book home with a huge curve glass argon filled window had the outer glass pop up in our sub zero weather, he got a new window under warranty, but that does not cover installation. The windows I got stuck with, hey they were the greatest thing in the world are removed from the outside with that now unavailable vinyl strip that was told was epoxied in with no way to remove it.

Went to a couple building supply stores and looked at new windows, many of them you have to remove the entire frame to remove the panel to change a piece of glass, what happens if a kid throws a baseball at that? You're screwed, what are they thinking? But it is that way everywhere, if the motor and heater element goes bad in a dryer, it's cheaper to buy a new dryer than the price of those two parts. But then you are also stuck with a 30 buck recycling bill to carry your old dryer to the dump, they won't even pick it up!

I don't like the way our world is going.


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## magictouch

*foggy windows*

I have read much but no real answers. First I will have to look up desiccant in the dictionary, then convert to the every day word.
Not sure what happened to my large Thermal window slider but I have 10 more just like it and some very large Thermal windows, basically every window in the house is the same (Andersen) and no help from them at all.
My windows are 3 years out of warranty and yet the company states the seal they use is 50 to 100 year flexible, guess not!
So some say seal break some say not seal problem, these windows were not cheap at installation and the manufactures are not offering any help or solutions for the window problems they have been aware of for 30 years.
My question is why haven't the thermal window manufactures come up with a home kit to resolve this 300,000,000 window problem in 2 countries??? There must be some serious money to be made in these window home kits at $50.00 bucks a pop. After all the manufactures make plenty of dough replacing broken windows from storms and from new contruction. So lets get some lobbyist going to Washinton and force the Companies to give something back to the suckers that fell for the pitch, maybe offer a vent repair kit with every window sold like it or not!


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## concretemasonry

Broken seals are more cosmetic than energy losers.

Look at the R-values or U-values of the different window panes.

1. A leaking seal is not as good a good seal, but it may look O.K.

2. A good seal will rovide a clear view and and percentage improvement in insulation.

3. An Argon fill cavity will offer a bigger improvement over a unfilled normal glazing.

All are just small degrees degrees of insulation and none of them are very good compared to the rest of the walls (R2 compared to R19). In many cases, curtains or blinds drawn at night will offer more savings annually that fancy glazing.

It is very difficult to cost-justify the replacement of IGU panels. If you have a fogged window that is unattractive, that is a different story. The window insulating game is just that, when you consider that you probably lose more from infiltration around outlets in exterior walls than the benefit of up-selling glazing systems.

I replaced an oversized IGU panel in an old sliding door that was sound and had low infiltration because it was visually not acceptable. I was glad to pay the installed price for the panel. I have three other panels that are leaking, but it is difficult to find (depends on the time of day and the sun angle), so there is little reason to do so. My annual heat with R13 2x4 construction in Minnesota is very low (max of $85.00 for heat and hot water in the winter in Minnesota) for a 150 sf townhouse. Due to my north and east exposure, my AC is only a max of $50.00/mo over the average for lights, so sun is not an issue. In the winter, all windows coverings are obviously open during the day and most are closed at night. - I have a hard time justifying replacing a good looking panel or four on energy savings compared to what I normally spend.

Dick


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## magictouch

*fogged up*

Good point what does Holiday Inn do for fogged windows?
I guess the point of my venting this situation, our income like many others has gone sour. Gasoline, food and the utilities companies has a death grip on our throats and can't afford to replace anything. I can only work part time at 60 and hubby at 65 will never be able to work again and nothing to show for it.
My neighbor said if I ever find a solution he will be happy to defog my window along with many other seniors in this community.
Rust is starting to show at the bottom between the glass of that Vinyl door window by Andersen.


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## d.a.n

*What's the solution sprayed inside the window (see: http://www.cvwei.com/video.html)*

What's the solution sprayed inside the window (see video: http://www.cvwei.com/video.html)_*?*_ 
Alcohol? Methyl Hydrate? 
I have many fogged windows (34 panes in 19 windows). 
So, I decided to experiment on one small fogged window (with two about 18" x 18" panes).
I drilled a tiny hole (pin-hole size) with a diamond bit and Dremel in a small window (interior-side, upper-left and lower-right).
Waited a few days.
The fog was still there.
Drilled another tiny hole in the exterior-side (upper-right).
Waited a few hours.
Still no change.

So, I took the other pane apart.
There are tiny desiccant beads in the hollow aluminum border between the two panes of glass.
If you shake or turn the the window, you may be able to hear them rattling inside the frame.
What's up with that? Well, it turns out that window manufacturers put desiccant beads in the window to absorb moisture.
However, that desiccant has a limited effectiveness.
Also, few windows are truly air-tight (hence, the reason for the desiccant beads).
Therefore, most (if not all) two-pane windows have a built-in obsolesence. 
Imagine that? 
That's nice if your business is selling windws, eh*?*

Therefore, since the window is still fogged, I'm wondering if the solution injected in the window has some evaporation and desiccant qualities_*?*_
It would be nice to know how to do this since $45 per pane (for 34 panes) would run about $1530, and replacing the 19 windows would be triple that cost (or much more depending on the quality of the replacement windows).

And replacment windows might fog-up too within a few years (if not sooner; especially for cheaper brands).

Hmmmmmm . . . so, I guess the next step will be to try and wash and drain the test window pane with alcohol.
And there's still one other unknown: the seals on the holes. Whatever is used should be semi-transparent, allow air to escape when air pressure increases, and keep insects out.


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## d.a.n

Made the holes in the upper-left and lower-right side of the windows a little larger (about 1/8 inch diameter), and the fog and water drops disappeared completely in both panes in two days (and there was quite a bit in both windows).
So, it appears that the holes can not be too small.
Next, I ordered some small one-way valves (which come on degassing coffee bags), and will (next) attach one to the top of each window, and place an air-permeable gauze over the lower holes of each window, and wait to see if the fog returns.
I believe the top valve must be a one-way valve (out), while the lower hole must have a simple two-way gauze (preferrably a transparent gauze to be less noticeable). If this works, it will be much less expensive than replacing all windows 17 windows in the house.


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## Brik

d.a.n said:


> Made the holes in the upper-left and lower-right side of the windows a little larger (about 1/8 inch diameter), and the fog and water drops disappeared completely in both panes in two days (and there was quite a bit in both windows).
> So, it appears that the holes can not be too small.
> Next, I ordered some small one-way valves (which come on degassing coffee bags), and will (next) attach one to the top of each window, and place an air-permeable gauze over the lower holes of each window, and wait to see if the fog returns.
> I believe the top valve must be a one-way valve (out), while the lower hole must have a simple two-way gauze (preferrably a transparent gauze to be less noticeable). If this works, it will be much less expensive than replacing all windows 17 windows in the house.


That's pretty cool. Assuming these holes were on the inside. I would be curious if you just used some clear tape and covered the holes how it would do. Or, if you could just leave them as is. The tape could easily be removed to defog as needed, if needed at all. Put the tape on when the humidity is very low and maybe you would be fine. Put it on when humidity is high then things may fog again.


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## jupiter2000

*coffee valves*

how industrious, dan!

let us know how that turns out over the long term. the treatment of my windows by a 'professional' has been less than adequate to date.

its beautiful sunny warm weather now and my skylights are clear... any other weather and they are fogged!


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## d.a.n

Brik said:


> That's pretty cool. Assuming these holes were on the inside. I would be curious if you just used some clear tape and covered the holes how it would do. Or, if you could just leave them as is. The tape could easily be removed to defog as needed, if needed at all. Put the tape on when the humidity is very low and maybe you would be fine. Put it on when humidity is high then things may fog again.


Brik, I drilled the holes on the inside (i.e. inside the house).

Brik, That's a good question (i.e. tape over the holes). I might try that (tape) and let you know. However, I believe there needs to be a one-way valve at the top to let air-pressure out, and a two-way valve at the bottom to let air in (and keep insects out). I'm going to use a little silicone caulk on the one-way valve so that it can be replaced (if necessary). 

Jupiter2000, Thanks. I'll let ya'll know what happens. I was very impressed that the fog and water drops disappeared, and the window looks quite good. I have one window that is etched, and plan to try a dental-water-pick (except using alcohol) to see if it can be cleaned. 

I think the minor loss in R-value due to the small holes (with a one-way valve) will be minimal, and with a dryer air-space, the window may in fact be more efficient than when it is full of fog and water drops. The elimination of the fog and water droplets will be much preferrable to a tiny loss of R-Value (if any, since a dry air space will also improve the R-value).

By the way, it rained the other day, and it was quite humid afterward (at 95 degrees F), and the fog did not return with the top and bottom holes open. Of course, the question remains, will the fog return when the valves are attached to the window.


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## joed

The only question is what is the energy efficiency of the window now that you have holes in them?
How does it work if you have triple panes with the sheet of plastic up the center?


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## d.a.n

joed said:


> The only question is what is the energy efficiency of the window now that you have holes in them?
> How does it work if you have triple panes with the sheet of plastic up the center?


Good question.

With a 3 pane window, it may be necessary to do the same thing on the outside of the window. I've seen some of the service franchises doing their (e.g. Window Medics, defogit.com, etc.) process on both the inside *OR* outside. For a 3 pane window with fog on both sides of the center pane, it may be necessary to do the same thing on both the inside *AND *outside.

First of all, most windows only have an R-value of 2-to-4.
Expensive windows are only slightly better.
Compare those R-Values to that of a brick wall of about R-12.

______________________________________________________________
*Table 1. Clear-Wall and Whole-Wall R-Values for Tested Wall Systems*
*#, System Description, **Clear Wall R-Value (Rcw), **Whole Wall R-Value (Rww), **(Rww/Rcw) x 100%*
*1.* 12-in two-core insulating units concrete 120lb/ft3, EPS inserts 1 7/8-in thick, grout fillings 24 in o.c.*, **R=3.7, *3.6*, *97%
*2.* 12-in two-core insulating units wood concrete 40lb/ft3, EPS inserts 1 7/8-in thick, grout fillings 24 in o.c.*, R=9.4, *8.6*, *92%
*3.* 12-in cut-web insulating units concrete 120lb/ft3, EPS inserts 2 1/2 in thick, grout fillings 16 in o.c.*, **R=4.7, *4.1*, *88%
*4.* 12-in cut-web insulating units wood concrete 40lb/ft3, EPS inserts 2 1/2 in thick, grout fillings 16 in o.c.*, **R=10.7, *9.2*, *86%
*5.* 12-in multicore insulating units polystyrene beads concrete 30lb/ft3, EPS inserts in all cores*, R=19.2**, *14.7*, *77%
*6.* EPS block forms poured in place with concrete, block walls 1 7/8 in thick*, **R=15.2, *15.7*, *103%
*7.* 2 x 4 wood stud wall 16 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, **R=10.6, *9.6*, *91%
*8.* 2 x 4 wood stud wall 24 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, **R=10.8, *9.9*, *91%
*9.* 2 x 6 wood stud wall 24 in o.c., R-19 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, **R=16.4, *13.7*, *84%
*10.* Larsen truss walls 2 x 4 wood stud wall 16 in o.c., R-11 batts + 8-in-thick Larsen trusses insulated by 8-in-thick batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, R=40.4, *38.5*, *95%
*11.* Stressed-skin panel wall, 6-in-thick foam core + 1/2-in oriented strand board (OSB) boards, 1/2-in plywood exterior, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, **R=24.7, *21.6*, *88%
*12.* 4-in metal stud wall 24 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1-in EPS sheathing + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. NAHB Energy Conservation House Details*, **R=14.8, *10.9*, *74%
*13.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 16 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior*, **R=7.4, *6.1*, *83%
*14.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 16 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1/2-in EPS sheathing + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. AISI Manual details*, **R=9.9, *8.0*, *81%
*15.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 16 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1-in EPS sheathing + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. AISI Manual details*, **R=11.8, *9.5*, *81%
*16.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 24 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. AISI Manual details*, **R=9.4, *7.1*, *75%
*17.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 24 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1/2-in EPS sheathing + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. AISI Manual details*, **R=11.8, *8.9*, *76%
*18.* 3 1/2-in metal stud wall 24 in o.c., R-11 batts, 1/2-in plywood exterior + 1-in EPS sheathing + 1/2-in wood siding, 1/2-in gypsum board interior. AISI Manual details*, **R=13.3, *10.2*, *77%
______________________________________________________________

Windows with fog and water drops inside (moisture) have a slightyly reduced R-Value (than the same window with a dry airspace).
The holes are small (about 1/8 inch), and a one-way valve at the top, and a two-way valve at the bottom should restrict significant air-flow, but allow moisture to escape at the top of the window.

The R-Value (insulating quality) of the dry window (even with two small 1/8" holes (in upper-left and lower-right) covered with the one-way and two-way valves) may have a better (or equal) R-Value of a window full of fog and water drops.

The fact is, the R-Value of a fogged window is not too terribly less than an unfogged window (of the same quality). 

The real problem is more of a cosmetic nature, and repairing the windows is preferrable to the cost of replacing 17 windows (with 34 separate window panes) if the R-Value of the window has not been significantly altered by the two holes.

I'll know in a few days if the one-way valves work. I also plan to try a simple bead of clear silicone caulk at the top hole, with a few pin holes in the caulk. That may be enough to allow moisture to escape, while being much less conspicuous than a small one-way valve (which came from a degassing coffee bag; see below).


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## Brik

Given that you have a bunch of windows you have a perfect opportunity to measure results with different methods.

I do not know how to measure r-value so I think thats off the table. My gut is that a 1/8" hole in one pane of a double pane window is statistically insignificant. 

So we need to measure defogging and how well windows stay defogged.

1 window - do nothing to cover holes
1 window - tape over holes
1 window - your valves
1 window - caulk with pinholes
1 window - caulk only
1 window - caulk one hole only

you get the idea - Report back if any windows fogged up again and if any draft is noticed for holes not covered.


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## d.a.n

That's a good plan.

However, any strategy should include something covering the hole, even if it is gas-permeable, in order to keep insects from getting inside (between) the window panes. 

It will take a few weeks to try all of the combinations, but I'll let ya'll know what happens, since I have 17 windows to work with.

Worst case, the windows have to be replaced anyway, so there's not much reason to not try to fix the existing fogged-up windows. 

Here's another issue: tempered versus non-tempered glass. Drilling into tempered glass will shatter it. It's hard to tell what is tempered or non-tempered glass. So I tried using a camera flash to see if there was any difference. The first photo below is a non-tempered window (one I've already drilled). The second is a shower-door that I know is tempered glass, but there are no markings on it to identify it as being tempered glass. Notice the strange pattern on the tempered glass? But I'm not sure that is a definitive determination. Does anyone know of an easy way (aside from a $350 to $500 tempered *glass detector*) of detecting tempered glass?

Thanks_*!*_

_*NON-TEMPERED GLASS:*_
_*







*_

*TEMPERED GLASS:*


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## Aron in Toronto

I recently spec'd Pella window for a job in NM and they all had small aluminum vent tubes to equalize the pressure inside the units during transportation from the manufacturing plant to the job site. The tubes are supposed to be trimmed off by the installer, but It seems like there is a big opportunity for mistakes if the installer is not up to speed. The thermal units were supposed to be "sealed" but perhaps that doesn't mean what the average person on the street would think sealed means.


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## Brik

Dan, what you did with the flash is interesting. Even more interesting is if its definitive. Your best bet in determining tempered or not would be based on location and age. In my newer house - All door glass is tempered and I have two windows above a soaking tub that are tempered. I'm not sure about the side lights on the door. I suspect they are too. That's it as far as I know. In an older house it would likely be less places.


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## d.a.n

Brik, Thanks. I have a back door (24 years old) that I thought would be tempered, but it does not produce the same star-burst flash pattern that the shower-door did (which I know is tempered glass). What I need to do is take some more flash-photos of windows that I know are tempered and non-tempered. If it is definitive, it will be cheaper than buying a $350-to-$500 glass-detector. Those glass detectors display different colored LEDs for tempered-glass, and same-colored LEDs for non-tempered-glass. Thus, it appears that tempered glass is causing some prism-like distortions, due to the high-heat treatment (versus annealing) of the glass at the factory.

By the way, I took several photos of the same glass panes (in macro; i.e. close-up mode, and at night when it was dark outside), and the patterns are consisitent in all photos. The tempered glass photos always produce a strange granular, star-burst pattern (as shown above). None of the photos of non-tempered glass produce that distorted pattern. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else sees the same thing.

P.S. Nice web-site: http://www.handyguyspodcast.com/


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## oberon

d.a.n.

Any tempered lites _should_ have a logo, or bug, in one corner that identifies them as tempered. If there is no bug, then the glass should not be tempered. 

Of course if the bug is covered or for some reason not there, then you have a mess of timy glass fragments to contend with.

Tempered glass has an outer compression and inner tension layer that act together to make tempered glass what it is. I have never heard of checking tempered glass by using a flash as you did, but I am intrigued enough by your pictures to do some testing to see if I can reproduce your results. Very interesting; thanks for the idea.

If you have polarized sunglasses, try looking at the windows while wearing 
them. Tempered class produces a "rainbow pattern" under polarized light, but it is not always easy to see.


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## d.a.n

*Polarized sun glasses*

I'll have to see if I have any polarized sun glasses.
If not, they shouldn't be very expensive.
Almost anything would be cheaper than $350-to-$500 for an electronic *tempered-glass detector*.

I didn't see any logo or bug on the glass, but it may be hidden by the surrounding encasement holding the glass.

I just received the one-way valves in the mail. I'm going to try those out next on the windows I already drilled holes in (which expelled the fog and water drops), to see if the fog returns.


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## d.a.n

OK. I put some silicone caulk with some pin holes in the windows.
They have not yet fogged up again.
I'm going to give it a while.


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## JoeBeta

*Thanks*

I recently bought a new home with its share of foggy windows and eagerly await further D.A.N. posts. I will be experimenting myself in the fall and will post my results as well then.


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## d.a.n

JoeBeta, 

I think we have a solution. 
Drilling holes and letting the window breath eliminates the fog.
One some windows, it can take about a week for the fog to dissappear.
After sealing the holes in the windows with clear silicone caulk with tiny holes made with a sharp needle, the windows did not fog up again.

However, removing the caulk, once applied, was not easy, since I put a little too much caulk in the hole. The reason I want to be able to remove the seal is in case the window fogs up again. I want an easy and inexpensive replacement seal for the two holes in each window. Therefore, I next tried a thick, clear piece of adhesive tape (used for sealing packages) cut in a small circle about a quarter inch in diameter, with small pin holes poked into the tape with a sharp needle. So far, the window has not fogged up again, and the tape with tiny holes can be removed and/or replaced if necessary, and it is barely noticeable.

The next thing I'm going to try is washing the inside of the window.
A few of my windows have streaks due to not only fog, but water drops.
In some windows, after all of the moisture disappeared, there were some streaks. Therefore, I'm going to use a water-pik (except using alcohol instead of water) to wash the inside of the window, and a wet/dry shop-vac to vacuum out the water, allow enough time for all of the moisture to evaporate, and then reseal with small pieces of clear packing tape.

Also, I suspect the small pieces of perforated tape may yellow or age over time, but fortunately, the tape is cheap and easy to remove (i.e. with a flat razor blade) and replace.

Also, I have not done all of my windows yet, but I have not seen any change in my electricity usage (KiloWatts Per Hour). But here's something interesting and unexpected. I had two windows side by side. One was still fogged up, and one had holes drilled into it. When the hot afternoon sun was shining on both windows, the fogged window (with no holes) was noticeably warmer to the touch than the window with two holes drilled into it. All I can think of to explain that is the water vapor must be lowering the R-value of the fogged window, because I don't think much heat-transfer can be occurring through the tiny holes covered with perforated clear tape. At any rate, I can live with a tiny loss in R-Value if the window is nice and clear. It's more of a cosmetic issue than an energy efficiency problem. Also, I have other plans to improve the efficiency of the windows drastically. Unfortunately, the long sides of my 2-story house face east and west. That's bad. The back side with the most windows (and a 2-car automatic aluminum garage door) faces the hot afternoon sun. Therefore, I'm going to install shutters and/or solar screens on the windows on the back side. That should cool things down a lot. 

Also, I glued a radiant barrier on the entire inside area of the garage door, and it appears to have cooled down the garage quite a bit.

I also put my hot water tank on a timer, and that saves about $40 per month.

There's more that needs to be done, since my last electric bill for only 2176 KWH was $423.17 (i.e. 19.45 cents per KWH)*! *That's the highest electricity bill ever. The electricity situation here in Texas is getting bad. Check out these *electricity rates*.

I'll be back later to let you know how the other windows go (with the washing, etc.).


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## pjm

Dan,

If you wouldn't mind can you post detailed instructions of how you drilled the holes? As like what kind of bit you used, etc. Maybe even with a few photo's? I also have a foggy window and would like to try what you did and see if it works before throwing in the towel and buying a new window. Instructions would really help.

Thanks for posting this and I hope it has continued success.

Paul


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## JoeBeta

*Thanks again*

The clear tape with pinholes sounds like the solution. Don't forget to patent the idea so you can start your own franchise


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## d.a.n

pjm,

I used a *Dremel* tool and these *diamond bits*.

I didn't use a liquid coolant (seen in the video referenced below), but may do that in the future (using a dental water-pik). Sometimes, the tip of the drill bit actually glowed orange/red when it got too hot. 

Here's a *video* of the process.

I'll work on getting some photos and a list of the detailed steps.

One thing I haven't discovered yet is a cheap way to definitively detect tempered glass (without buying a $349+ *detector*). I'm afraid one of my windows is tempered glass, but there are no markings on it. You shouldn't try to drill tempered glass, because it will explode into a thousand tiny bits of glass. Most windows are not tempered glass. Usually, only doors with glass, or low windows. 

P.S. Yes, I drilled on the inside. I think the seals with tape will last much longer on the inside. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that due to the wide temperature and moisture extremes outside than inside would make drilling the holes on the inside a better choice.


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## pjm

Dan,

Thanks for the info, and the video. You said you did your's on the inside of the house right? I don't have a dremel, but I have a roto-zip which I think is basically the same tool. I'll have to give it a try and see how it works.

Thanks again.


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## macman

d.a.n said:


> I'll know in a few days if the one-way valves work. I also plan to try a simple bead of clear silicone caulk at the top hole, with a few pin holes in the caulk. That may be enough to allow moisture to escape, while being much less conspicuous than a small one-way valve (which came from a degassing coffee bag; see below).


Hi everybody,
I'm a newbie to this forum, and have been searching for a method to get rid of the condensation between my windows...that's how i ended-up in this forum.

The degassing valve in the coffee pouch is a great idea, which I'm going to look into. Another thought was the similar valve that is now being used in the Reynolds Vacuum freezer bags....too bad their colored light blue.

Another thought might be to use the little vacuum that Reynolds sells to work with those vacuum bags to remove excess moisture and air from the window....any thoughts if that's a good, or not so good idea?:confused1:


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## d.a.n

*Defogging windows*

Macman,

I've tried a small piece of thick transparent packing tape with tiny holes poked in each, and the windows have not fogged up again.

My next step is to try washing the inside of the windows with:
(1) a dental pick (with alcohol) that provides a strong fluid stream.
(2) a web-shop-vac for suction out the alcohol.

I think alcohol will clean the inside of the windows better, and evaporate without leaving spots.

PJM, Yes, I drilled the holes on the inside of the window. The tape (or seal) will last much longer on the inside, aside from being much easier to replace (especially on upper floors not at ground level).


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## ddodge

Dan, I may have missed a couple of things you already discussed, but can you explain how you plan to suction out the alcohol through the tiny hole? And secondly, would it make more sense to drill one hole at the top of the outside and the other on the inside bottom, Or vice- versa? In the video they did drill both on the outside though, didn't they? Why did you decide to drill the holes on the inside, other than the fact it's harder to reach outside. Did you do the water-pic rinse yet? Hope you keep up with your findings. 

Thanks for this great thread. This problem has troubled me for years. I've often wondered if drilling a hole would work, because on one of my windows (One that has a crack) there is a big difference in the fogging compared to the rest. It makes sense. I can finally do something about them. Thanks again.


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## d.a.n

ddodge said:


> Dan, I may have missed a couple of things you already discussed, but can you explain how you plan to suction out the alcohol through the tiny hole?


I haven't done it yet, but I'm going tape a small plastic tube taped to the end of my wet-shop-vacuum hose. 



ddodge said:


> And secondly, would it make more sense to drill one hole at the top of the outside and the other on the inside bottom, Or vice- versa? In the video they did drill both on the outside though, didn't they? Why did you decide to drill the holes on the inside, other than the fact it's harder to reach outside.


I recommend doing it on the inside, for 4 reasons:
(1) convenience; I have a two story home;
(2) the thin tape seals on the inside (which I poked tiny pin holes with a small needle) will last much longer on the inside;
(3) it reduces the risk of moisture getting inside the window, should the seals leak due to deterioration due to exposure to the outdoors which will have more extreme temperatures and rain.
(4) I talked to a guy at WindowMedics who does this as a business, and he said he drills the holes on the inside.

The only downside for doing it on the inside is the messiness of spraying water on the drill bit while drilling a hole.



ddodge said:


> Did you do the water-pic rise yet? Hope you keep up with your findings.


Not yet. I'm planning to do that soon though, soon as I get some time.



ddodge said:


> Thanks for this great thread. This problem has troubled me for years. I've often wondered if drilling a hole would work, because on one of my windows (One that has a crack) there is a big difference in the fogging compared to the rest. It makes sense. I can finally do something about them. Thanks again.


Sure. I'll be back, as soon as I try out the dental water-pic (with alcohol) and the wet-shop vac. I'm hoping this will wash away some of the spots cause by water droplets. Also, I think the alcohol will evaporate quickly. I may have to leave the seals off for a few days until all of the alcohol and moisture evaporates.


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## d.a.n

*Washed and drained inside of window*


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## ddodge

Dan, How did the alcohol do? Did it do a good job of cleaning the water streaks? And did there seem to be a film or anything on the inside from the cleaning? Great illustration. I appreciate your keeping everyone infomed... You will probably know more in a couple of days, but I couldn't wait that long to ask. Thanks


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## Lauz

DAN - you're awesome...rarely have I seen as comprehensive a discussion on something I'm having the exact same problem with.

Curious to hear about the results of the Alcohol wash...streak free?

I assume the bottom hole is an inch or so above the bottom of the window - how did you get the bottom inch of alcohol out - I'm guessing the shop vac wouldn't get rid of it all - did it just evaporate?

I'm eager to try this too, but couple of questions...

1 - I live in Toronto, not Texas, so our weather conditions are much different - winter temps go below freezing (32F) fairly regularly, sometimes weeks at a stretch. I'm not so concerned about losing R-values, but I'm concerned that something may happen to the glass - cracks? ...frost? Any thoughts? How about from Nick the engineer dude? I'm pretty sure that if DAN's fix doesn't work I won't have much choice other than to replace the windows, but right now it's a cosmetic issue that I can live with instead of spending the cash - if the window cracks in the middle of winter, I'll be forced to replace it and I'll probably get scalped then.

2 - How much space is between the panes? I'm a bit concerned that my hand won't be steady enough to get my Dremel through the first pane without going through the second one as well...

3 - Did you spray water on the drill as it was going through the glass? At one point it sounded like you didn't, then later it sounded like you did. Is this sufficient to keep the glass from cracking, or should you put some tape or something similar around the spot you're drilling first?

4 - If you only drilled a 1/8 inch hole, what kind of tube did you use to siphon out the alcohol? something like one of those straw things on a can of WD40?

I'm fairly handy, but have never tried anything like this before, (also don't have anywhere I can really test this), so I'd like to be sure before I give it a shot.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## TheNiceGuy

I didn't read through all the posts. But I may be able to help with some questions not covered, as I was a journeyman glazier before going to university. Been a while though.
Anyway:

-If the condensation is left for a long time, it will cause a kind of calcifying or etching on the glass that cannot be removed with alcohol/scrubbing, etc. (a glass buffer will work). 
-Tempered class should have a seal on the corner stating such. If it doesn't, you can tell by knocking on the glass, as it has a different feel/sound to it. Also, tempered glass will only be put in areas where it's likely to receive impact, such as floor level. Most homes only use tempered glass in sliding patio doors, skylights, veranda railings, etc.
-Glass drill bits are pretty cheap, and you can use a garden mister with water to keep it cool while drilling so as not to crack the glass.
-Sealed units are not that hard to replace yourself. Usually all you need is a couple of putty knives and a razor knife. You can often reuse the old glaze tape, etc. If not just strip it off and use a roll of glaze tape. Make sure to put the new unit on the 2 rubber mounts, clear of debris/frame.
-In a pinch, you could open up the unit with a razor knife, and clean it out, put some silica gel inside, and reseal with silicon. Its not pretty, but it's free and it works.
-You can recycle the glass for other projects. We would often replace large fogged units, and then cut them apart and use a flat razor to clean the edges up. We would then resell the glass as used, which a lot of people appreciated as it was much cheaper.
-Not all sealed units are created equal. There was a big company called Skyline in our town that made a lot of units with a 1-year warranty and was able to undercut everyone else. But most units failed within 3 years, and the customers were pretty surprised to have to redo the whole house when they called us.


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## ddodge

Quote "-In a pinch, you could open up the unit with a razor knife, and clean it out, put some silica gel inside, and reseal with silicon. Its not pretty, but it's free and it works."

Niceguy, when you say it's not pretty, how noticable is this method? Is it downright ugly, or can you spend some time and make it decent looking?


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## TheNiceGuy

It depends on your skill with razor knife and silicone gun. And the seal will be much weaker than the original window. And there is a chance you will get fogging again anyway.
But if you have some time and don't mind taking a chance, then give it a whirl. You have nothing to lose.
What kind of window is it, how big?
Be really careful when removing the window from the frame so as not to crack it during the cut out. Use a razor knife and cut as close to one sheet as possible. Use multiple strokes so as not to crack the glass, and don't cut into the spacer bar in the middle. Open it up and clean it out. Obviously make sure its dry when you're done. Put your silica (chemical desiccant) in the bottom. Use a straight razor to scrape off teh excess sealant on the sheet. Get some automotive (windshield) sealant and a caulking gun. Use a very small bead if you are worried about looks. Apply a bead to the middle of the spacer bar, and the carefuly lower the othe rsheet ontop. Gently press all around the edges and make sure you have an airtight seal. Then apply lots of sealant arounf the edges of eh frame, and smooth it out with your fingers. You're trying to make an airtight seal. Of course, make sure all the sufaces are clean. If possible, let it dry for a day. If you're in a hurry, you can install sooner, but you have to be really careful not to allow the sheets to shift. Then reinstall the window, making sure there is even support on the shim blocks, and very firm pressure from the . And you're done!


----------



## ddodge

I have "Better Built windows". The name is a contradiction. The company gave me the run-around on the warranty until we got tired of fighting them and gave up. I have 10 which are about (I'm at work) 16" X 6', and probably 10 more at around 4' x 5'. Most of the problems are in the 16" X 6' windows that face the east and the lake. The windows that get more shade have kept their seal. I've asked anyone and everyone if you can repair the windows like you suggest and the answer is always "You need new windows". I'm up for trying one or both of these suggestions. Like you say ..... what have I got to loose. Thanks. Finally something a DIYer can have a go at on my windows. I would rather try and fail, than not try and be angry about it one more year.


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## oberon

This is a really interesting thread. 

Dan, very nice descriptions of your process. 

I do have to disagree with TheNiceGuy however on one point. When opening an IG unit you do have something to lose...skin and blood. 

Opening an IG for someone who is totally inexperienced can be very dangerous. It can hurt you and it can make you bleed. If you decide to open your IGU, then be really careful!!! Glass edges are SHARP and you will be dragging a thin razor knife along that edge with your hand very close to that edge.

Keep in mind that an IG with seal failure looks ugly, but the energy performance hasn't changed by losing the seal unless the unit was argon filled in which case the argon is gone and the window has lost some value because of that reason. If the window has a softcoat LowE coating, then the seal loss will result in damage to the coating, but it won't happen right away. The point being that it is an aesthetic issue and not a performance one, so there is no reason to rush into anything until you are fully ready to do so.

If anyone does decide to open an IG, keep in mind that there are a number of different seal systems in use and while some of them will be reuseable (to a greater or lesser degree), some of them will not be reuseable when cut into. 

TheNiceGuy gave good instructions for opening and resealing an IG unit. I would personally not recommend it, but if anyone wants to try it then follow his instructions and be very careful.


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## sreynolds1977

I own a house that was built in 1992 and the windows started fogging about 5 years ago. This summer I finally started to address the issue and was hoping I might be able to repair them myself. The sash's are wood and the exterior of the sash is wrapped in aluminum. The IGU's are held into the sash with vinyl moldings that lock into grooves cut into the perimeter of the sash. Using a couple of putty knives, I was able to release the moldings, remove all 4 of them and then remove the IGU. The bedding "glaze" used for the IGU is a clear, non-hardening type of glaze, so the IGU's came out easily once the vinyl trim was removed. 

To start, I cut open one of the IGU's and tried to remove the calcium deposits on the glass. I tried various fine-grade rubbing compounds with an electric buffer, but I was only able to remove about 70% of the calcium etching. Unless you have a glass buffing set-up (which run $200-300), forget about cleaning the old glass. Even if you get the calcium spots off, the glass underneath them is etched or frosted. Unless the etching is buffed out, the window will still appear slightly cloudy.

You can buy new glass of course, so that was my next course of action. Glass comes in various grades for windows. There is clear, low E, bronze tinted, etc. You want to try and buy glass that will match the rest of your windows. Mine was clear and two pieces of clear glass in a standard window size runs about $20. 

After I cut the old glass off the IGU spacers and cleaned the butyl off the spacers and glass, I found that two of the spacers are filled with molecular sieves (a desiccant). This is used to absorb any moisture that is in the air when the IGU is assembled and to absorb any moisture that might leak in when the IGU starts to fail. You can buy new desiccant (it runs about $30 for 5 lbs - enough to do all the windows on your block) or you can dry the old desiccant (and hope it's microscopic pores are not clogged with minerals) and reuse it. I dried mine in an oven set on warm, then put it in an air tight container after it cooled.

When ready to assemble, I reloaded the spacers with desiccant and prepared my new glass for assembly. You'll find new glass is filthy and since the inside surfaces are forever encapsulated and unaccessible once assembled, these surfaces have to be perfectly clean before hand. In factories where IGU's are built, this is accomplished in a clean room by an automated glass cleaning machine. In my basement this is accomplished by windex and a lint-free cloth. Each surface has to cleaned at least 3 times to get the glass perfectly clean. Even so, there will be some lint particles that will find their way into the IGU, but that's about the best your going to do under the circumstances. After cleaning the glass I carefully positioned the IGU spacer frame on the glass, set the other piece of glass on top of the spacer and clamped the IGU "sandwich" with spring clamps.

When choosing an adhesive to seal the IGU with, I decided that automotive windshield urethane would be best. In IGU factories though, Butyl rubber is used. Butyl is a solid at room temperature, and so in order to apply it (and to help it stick tenaciously to the glass), the butyl is heated and pressure-fed through a "gun" directly into the outer space between the glass and spacer. These heated butyl set-ups cost around $5000, so windshield urethane seemed more cost effective in my situation. I cleaned the outer glass edges and spacer with alcohol and when it dried, caulked the cavity between the spacer and glass edge with urethane. I used a putty knife to smooth the filled cavity flush with the outer edges of the glass. The finished result looked pretty good, but when it dried I found I could easily peel the urethane from the inner glass surface. Auto windshields have a black primer applied to their outer edge and this surface allows the urethane to stick to the glass. Apparently, urethane won't stick very well to plain glass and so my "experimental project" was unsuitable for use as an IGU.

At this point I called around to a couple of glass shops and priced out some new, factory made IGU's. They were around $63 per sash or about $130 per window (for my 22" x 28" IGU's - prices vary by size). You can buy an inexpensive, new vinyl window at Home Depot for about $150, although the quality of these windows might be an issue. Next I did some more research and found some local "factories" where IGU's are made. Some will deal with the general public and their prices are $48 for each sash or about $100 per window. These are the factories where the glass shops get their IGU's made. The glass shops mark up the price, so if you can find an IGU factory in your area, this is where you will find the cheapest price. $100 per window for the 8 windows in my small house seems like a fair deal to me. When you compare that to the price and labor for a new window it's a no-brainer (as long as your sash and frames are OK). When compared to the price of rebuilding your existing IGU's (provided you can find a method that would perform as well as a new IGU) it's only about 30-40% more. At this point in my project, this seems like a bargain.

Rebuilding your own IGU's may be feasible, but there are many pitfalls along the way and the cost savings may not be what you think, especially when you figure in all the aggravation. You basically have to educate yourself on how IGU's are commercially manufactured and then try and duplicate that in your own shop. Getting the right kind of glass cut to the exact size, cleaning the glass surfaces, dealing with whether to use new desiccant or not and finding a suitable adhesive to seal the unit are some of the more difficult issues.

I hope my post has helped some of you with your IGU issues and I wish you good luck with your own IGU projects.


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## bbass

*Drilled thru glasss*

So I bought a $5 1/4inch grinder bit (for glass/tile) for my dremel and slowly ...about 15 minutes drilled a hole at top and bottom of my double pane window. Went well...paused every few to let stuff cool down. Just a little powder glass dust to clean up. Go slow when finishing cause the glass tends too flake at the exit side. Nice smooth hole.
Will try the waterpick alcohol cleaning soon.


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## TechMan

Has anyone tried pulling a vacumn on the area between the panes with a HVAC pump? The lower pressure will boil off the water as it does when evacuating AC line sets.
What about driling the spacer?
I have several fogged tempered (can not drill) panes from a sun room headed for solar hot air collectors, they were easy enough to disassemble, but I am concerned with the moisture on reassembly.


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## plazomat

*How about Gore Vents?*

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/venting/technical/forms/adhesive_cut_parts.html

We use them in a screw in format to keep our sealed enclosures (avionics applications) from trapping moisture..

Seems like they would be perfect to seal over hole, allowing airspace to naturally vent...they allow vapors to pass freely but prevent liquids etc...

Will try and contact our rep this week to get samples. I am a ways away from drilling holes but will gladly send a few over to someone as a trial..

They look suspiciously the same as some franchisers are using....\

Plaz


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## NJLJ

Interesting thread. I am going to have to try it with some of the windows of a house I just bought that I am planning on renting out.

I am wondering if, instead of drilling through the glass itself, maybe I can try drilling at an angle through the window frame next to where the glass is, and have the drill hole go into the channel between the panes of glass.


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## plazomat

NJLJ said:


> Interesting thread. I am going to have to try it with some of the windows of a house I just bought that I am planning on renting out.
> 
> I am wondering if, instead of drilling through the glass itself, maybe I can try drilling at an angle through the window frame next to where the glass is, and have the drill hole go into the channel between the panes of glass.



This should work just the same, what you are trying to do here is ventilate the space between the 2 panes...let us know how u make out this should be a lot easier than the glass drilling.


Plaz


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## [email protected]

*Any word on how to buy the flat vents from the Rep?*

I just about passed out when a guy came and told me it would be about $900.0o to "vent" 12 windows in my house. I totally want to dremmel it out.... I checked out the website to get the vents that are adhesive. Any chance on buying them????? Dan can't wait to hear how your project is going. I love the fact that you gave such detailed directions. I am going to try it. Thanks, keep up this thread!!!!!:thumbsup:


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## chrishosley

*waiting to hear about how folks made out*

I too have several very large fogged up tempered windows that are framed in easy to disassemble wood frames which when removed provide access to the aluminum channel in most cases. I'm thinking maybe right angle drill attachment would work, maybe dremel makes one? In those where I can't get to the channel, I suppose disassembly or replacement is the only solution. I am looking forward to hearing more about the availability of the screw in vents as well as how disassembly worked out for anyone who has tried it. I have a garage side door window I will tear apart as a test and use the quick & dirty venting and post the details. If anyone has additional details or has heard or learned anything new please post. My replacement costs would be well over 10k!


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## Duffmid

Just had to register with this forum to post and say thanks so much to Dan and the other posters. I am looking to buy a new house in OC California and one of the windows is badly fogged. Agent was saying she knows some company who can defog them so I started doing some surfing for more info, but based on this thread I could buy myself some diamond drill bits and save myself a few hundred dollars. Also wondering if it's possible to buy those gore vents anywhere.


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## Duffmid

I have a question though, is there any reason why you couldn't use a regular drill with diamond bits? It seemed like everyone was using Dremel's or something similar. Is that just because it is a bit smaller and easier to be more precise?


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## bradnailer

Duffmid said:


> I have a question though, is there any reason why you couldn't use a regular drill with diamond bits? It seemed like everyone was using Dremel's or something similar. Is that just because it is a bit smaller and easier to be more precise?


Normally, a regular drill bit will not penetrate the glass and if it does, it is so coarse, there is a chance it will crack the glass.


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## Duffmid

But couldn't you just use these types of bit http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Quality-2...ype-Rotary/dp/B000MOI9G6/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b put into a regular cordless drill?


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## NickD

What a fiasco with meager attempts to save on energy, not only with windows, but with other means. Ha, purchased ten CFL lamps a few months ago, so far, three of them exploded and most of them that were rarely used. Friends electronic ignition went out in his furnace, really stupid compared to the cheap thermocouple and reliable units we had years ago. That little bit of heat was helping to heat the home and would always turn it off during the AC season, so how much energy is being saved? Friend had to pay $560.00 to get a new ignition module, what a ripoff. Did have to replace my gas hot water heater, and looked into the power vented models, is eligible for a tax credit, but still a major loss initially. Building inspector said I cannot mount it in my basement, because the snow could cover the vents, but it's okay to mount a vented furnace, you figure that out. But in comparing energy cost, would only save about a therm per month, and with the problems in the electronics, vent motor, ignition, and the very poor warranty, only a year on these parts, could cost an extra fortune. Cheapest one was over twice the price as a conventional hot water heater, but the conventional one had a 12 year warranty, where the vented version had a 6 year tank warranty, but only a year on the electronics.

Ethanol gas is yet another ripoff, first off, they didn't figure the price of corn with the increase in demand would rise the price of corn from a buck and a half per bushel to over nine bucks, this drastically affected all of us at the grocery store. Still takes over a gallon of fossil fuels to make a gallon of ethanol. Got a bad mix at a Milwaukee station, that is all you can buy, detonation was so bad, had to drive home with a MT vehicle in third gear to keep the engine from blowing apart and averaged a very poor 17 mpg instead of the usual 36 mpg I get from using real gas. On an older Toyota, ethanol swelled up the fuel pump made with plastic parts, 450 bucks for a new fuel pump, I was really teed off, took a picture of it and sent that to my governor that is really pushing ethanol. No reply as usual.

Son has a 14 month old energy efficient furnance, control board went to hell, his dealer said it was under a five year warranty, wanted a 150 bucks to come out plus another 110 bucks an hour to change it, but with my vast electronic knowledge, convinced him, I could change it to save my son a couple of bucks. But what happens after warranty? I did note they changed the new board, old board was crap. Guess they didn't hear about surge protection with microcontrollers. More made in China crap. I dropped everything when his furnace went out, have a new two month old granddaughter and determined his control board was a piece of crap.

So are our windows, have you checked these out lately? With many, even the multiple pane type, one baseball at the wrong spot means replacing the entire window and the also includes the frame! Breakage is not warranteed by anyone. And if you have a mortgage paying for that window at three times the price, you are really in bad shape.

My first approach was to contact http://www.crystalclearwindowworks.com/Default.html, what a load of BS I got from these people, no service guy in my area, so asked if I could buy the check valves, no, it takes great skill to install them, if they do even work. Later learned that this great skill is gained in a two day training period, but I never did get a quote.

Second approach is to treat the window as a broken one, a guy in town claims he can get the glass panels, would have to see the window, but would run about 200 bucks per panel, I have casements that I can remove in seconds, that would save me a lot as opposed to him coming out here, all these guys are charging a small fortune now to come out. Also contacted the window manufacturer, also about 200 bucks a panel, but comes with new weather stripping and just snaps in, but have to go to a dealer, they don't sell direct anymore, and screw you if you have a problem after the warranty. Mine were warranteed for twenty years, started having problems after twenty-one. The window manufacturer was kind enough to come to my home and look at them, asked him if I could buy that vinyl molding that holds the glass panel in, he was kind enough to give me his souce of the glass, a factory only 70 miles from me. Haven't contacted them yet, as can no longer get that vinyl molding, and any attempts to remove it will break it into tiny pieces. Did point out, they don't use that anymore, has been a source of problems for them, but did tell me the source of fogging is caused by that vinyl skinkage. On this note, did use silicone seal on the joints for the good windows.

I do have a wooded lot, but the windows exposed to the south sun are the problem ones, thank God or whoever, my large picture windows are on the north side of the house.

Well, I haven't done anything yet, but yearn for the days when I had very good storm windows on my older homes. Thinking about building a new home, but would really look into windows with easy to change panels if such a thing really exists. My neighbor with the same age home simply spend over 40,000 bucks for all new windows, that is also a solution. But where is the savings with these pieces of crap if you have to go through all that. Did write my congressman about these so called energy saving devices, said something about a war in Iraq. Maybe if enough of us wrote we could make a difference.

Best window is no window, but kind of hard to convince a wife of that. Ha, we want to bring the outdoors into the indoors, the whole concept is stupid.


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## Runway

*Calcifying Streaks*

I wonder how the cleaning of the window streaks by d.a.n has worked. We have not heard from him for a while.


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## Kent

*Calcifying in windows*

This occurs when the wet surface is sun-baked over and over. The window defogging mentioned before will tell you they have a majic potion which is actually availble from window cleaning supplier.

They will also tell you about their other majic solution that leaves no streaks to sun bake, but don't get me wrong these guy's (franchisees) are brainwashed by these Companies into believing all this.

Each one of those defoggers are franchised and they are told about these majic solutions formulated just for them and each franchisee gets to pay $20 a gal. for what is 99% water. They call this Wetter Water, well wetter water is available from people like ABC Window cleaning Supply as wetter water or slik. The window cleaning induxtry use this to lessen the wear on their squeegees and disapate water faster.

Both these products are sold in concentrates and 1 gallon of concentrate makes 1,200 gals of the majic potion. Oh yes, the concentrate sells for about $12 a gallon.

To remove the calcium deposit buy some calcium remover, mix it accordingly, if you have drilled a 3-5mm hole at the bottom of your window, put your solution into a garden pressure sprayer and jig a small metal tube bent at a angle, introduce into the hole and spray the inside of your thermopane a few time. The excess water will escape through the hole you drilled and suck up the balance of the liquid with a syringe.

Hope this helps.


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## Shamus

Well, this is a very old thread but I think worth keeping alive.

In manufacture the space between the glass is purged of air and typically Argon or Krypton is fed into that space and then plugged off. Those gases are void of oxygen. Oxygen holds moisture. If there is oxygen infiltration into the space between the two sheets of glass water molecules will condense and fogging occurs.
The desiccant is added to absorb some of the moisture when the seal between the pains begins to fail. The Manufacturer puts it there to help get them through the warranty period. In any event, It does not magically make moisture go away. It absorbs it until it becomes saturated. Then your windows begin to fog up. All windows will eventually fail.
Any attempt to repair a fogged window without taking it apart and resealing the pains is a waste of time. Just my opinion and the fix is is a DIY project.
My suggestion is this. Disassemble the window. Remove all the silicone on all glass surfaces. Clean the glass carefully and thoroughly and use a lint free cotton cloth. Use 4 - ¼” sq clear plastic spacers cut from plastic rods available at most hobby stores. (NOTE: Your windows may vary with the factory spacing between the pains so measure that before disassembly, you might need a 3/16” spacer, as an example.) With the glass on a flat surface place the spacers on all 4 corners of the pain. Apply a silicon bead around the entire edge using a quality clear “glass silicon”. Place the second pain on top any align the two. Once the silicon has set-up remove the 4 spacers. Silicon over 2 of the 4 holes. That leaves you an inlet/outlet hole. 
I use the argon from my wire-feed welder to purge the window of O2. After 5 seconds I’ve pushed 98+% of the O2 out of the sandwiched pains and I apply silicon to first the outlet hole while I'm still purging and then the inlet. 
This process is very close to how the window was made at the factory. Argon is available anywhere that sells Oxygen/Acetylene for your gas torch set. For $250-$300 in materials you can do 500 windows +.
I’ve used lengths of silicon “rod” that you cut to fit a window and just add a dab of the tube stuff at the corners. I’ll have to look who it was that sold these to me. The rods are cut to fit and they are firm enough to hold the pains apart without using any spacers.

It's worth noting that Argon is a noble gas and is not flamable. 

Just my ol 2¢


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## AllanJ

TechMan said:


> Has anyone tried pulling a vacumn on the area between the panes with a HVAC pump? The lower pressure will boil off the water as it does when evacuating AC line sets.
> What about driling the spacer?.


I wold not try using vacuum. This will make the two glass sheets bow in towards each other and they will shatter.


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## [email protected]

Yikes, I drilled out two holes. First I used a glass 3/16" bit, was going great until I got impatient and pushed too quickly and broke the glass. Next try I used a ceramic drill bit on my rotozip and went much slower and made a hole a little bigger than 1/8". I live in So. Cal and we have had a lot of rain. Sadly the window hasn't cleared up, it had a LOT of water streaks. Half the window has cleared but not the lower. I have some adhesive vents but haven't applied them yet. I am going to use packaging tape over the lower hole and put the vent on the top. Has anyone else done this and had success????? I've tried to contact Dan but because I haven't made 25 posts I can't PM him. Help!!!!!


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## Kent

*To sckarsten*

You need to use a variable spped dremel with a diamond bit ball end. Start drilling at 45 degree angle to set a mark and as the bit start going deeper straighten out your angle. You need a hole at the bottom and one at the opposing top. Do not block the holes with tape that defeats the purpose. What you want to create is air flow to dry out the window. Good luck


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## [email protected]

Kent, thanks, just checked out the site, couldn't read the forum???? How long should it take for the windows to clear out the water still on the inside panes of the glass. I did do opposing corners. I figured it out with the roto zip at an angle and sprayed water while I drilled. I went really slow and it worked. I guess I have to cover one hole and then put a two way valve (which I have) on the other hole. Have you done this procedure yet? I hope it works. I initially tried on a window that his hidden to practice on. I got the valves from GORE, but you need a resale number to use them. I am going to try them on remodeling jobs. Thanks.


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## [email protected]

*Kent how big should the dremmel bit be?*

I noticed after the rain that one of my drilled windows cleared out quickly. It looks like you can cover one hole and put a vent on the other hole. I think that is how the pros do it. :thumbup:


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## ddodge

Did you drill both holes outside, Inside, or one in and one outside?


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## [email protected]

*Drilled opposite, inside*

My first attempt was with a 3/16" glass cutting bit for a drill. Big mistake. Just happened to buy some glass for our church and the glass man even said it would crack the glass. It did. I went slow and sprayed water, but I got impatient and cracked the glass.
Then I used a roto zip ceramic straight shaft bit, went at it at a 45 degree, with water spritzing, really slow. It took forever about 15 minutes. It worked. I drilled inside opposing corners as close as I could get to the edge considering the roto zip. Another person suggested that I buy a ball end dremmel diamond bit. I've checked them out on line for less than 10 dollars.
I am still a little confused about covering the holes. I think only one hole gets the vent and the other hole gets covered after the moisture is gone, otherwise little ants would cruise in. I have windows out in site and am hesitant to use my rotozip straight shaft ceramic bit, but the cracked window is out of sight. Hope this helps.


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## [email protected]

*Successful drilling on a good window!*

:no:Well a lot of patinece and it worked. I haven't ordered the ball bit diamond dremmel bit and used my straight shaft ceramic drill bit with my rotozip. It took a long time, it took about 45 minutes for two holes. I had to go slow because this was a big window in my living room. I left the vents off the window to let it air out and let the moisture escape and then I'll put the vent on it. My question is.... Do the pros seal one hole and leave a vent on the other, or two vents on the both holes. Any ideas would be great.


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## Charlie Howard

*Dan's method seems to work*

Thank you, Dan. Our "problem" window is a large semi-circular one, with several metal ribs between the inner and outer panes. Moisture's been accumulating for years. The problem with replacing it (besides $$$) is that the window is embedded in the outside stucco and inside plaster, so walls would have to be torn open, and I don't know how weather-proof the repaired surfaces would be. Before finding this thread, I'd been thinking about making holes in the glass, but didn't know what to use, whether it would work, or whether it would just shatter the window (not a good idea in mid-winter).

Now that it's (almost) Spring, I used a variation of Dan's method: drilled two 1/8" holes through the interior pane, but had to put both at the bottom, because a hole at the top would have been very visible as well as hard to reach. Each hole took about 30 minutes, using a variety of diamond bits from that $6 kit at Amazon. More than half that time was spent pausing to let things cool off, and I occasionally wiped the glass and the bit with a damp sponge. Nothing cracked; I never used much pressure, so the Dremel mostly ran at full speed.

In an effort to keep bugs out while letting the window dry out, I cut 2-inch lengths of drinking straws that fit snugly into the holes, and wrapped Scotch tape around the loose ends of the straws, so that only a little of the tape was on the straws and the rest presented a sticky inside surface. (The sticky tape became an extension of the straw, providing a tunnel that has a sticky inside surface.) This is easy to remove and re-insert, lets air circulate a bit, and hopefully will trap any bugs or dust particles that enter the sticky passageway. The straws are stiff enough to insert and remove without collapsing from finger pressure; tape alone is not.

Since the holes are at the same level, there won't be any convection currents to circulate air through the window, so I've been blowing air into one hole with a low-pressure air-mattress inflator: remove one straw, partly cover the hole with the inflator nozzle, run it for a few seconds, remove and cover the hole with a finger until the air stops whistling out of the other hole; then repeat. I'm afraid to do this for more than 10-15 seconds at a time, because air pressure's clearly building up between the panes and I don't want to break the window. Even though I can feel air coming out of the uncovered hole while the pump is running, it takes almost as long for the pressure to return to normal as it took to pump air into the window. I do a few reps of this at a time, and a few sets a day. Works best when the window's warmed by the sun.

The holes were made two days ago and the pump's been used maybe 10-15 times since then. Originally, every section of the window showed moderate to severe condensation, but now, about half of the window looks clear and mostly or completely dry. The two triangular wedges at bottom-center still look very, very wet, so it'll take a while longer before I know how close to being completely successful this method is. I'll post an update sometime in the future.

When finished, I'll follow the rest of Dan's suggestion to cover the two holes with small pieces of clear packaging tape and make a few pinholes through the tape.

Again, thank you Dan.


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## Charlie Howard

*It worked and it didn't work*

Update on my earlier post: using a small air pump to blow air through the double-pane window eventually dried it out, but as soon as the blower was removed, the window started to fog again. The seals probably are too badly compromised for a lasting benefit. Also, this is a semi-circular window with internal struts and, consequently, a dozen semi-isolated compartments. That made it harder to dry out all of them.

Bottom line: Dan's method is excellent, but when the window is in really bad shape, only a replacement will solve the problem.


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## Doddy

*De fogging insulating units*

A great thread, and some very inventive contributions.
I think I can clear up a couple of the unknowns.
Firstly, the inside or outside drilling question; 
If you live in an area where you are in heating mode most of the year and hardly ever use A/C (like here in the UK), then it is only worthwhile drilling the outside. That is because the outside atmosphere has lower absolute humidity (less mass of water for a given volume of air) than the indoor air. What happens when the unit warms up is that the trapped air goes out of the small hole and the absolute humidity equalises with the outside eventually when the desiccant has dried out somewhat. It is known as vapour pressure equalisation. The air between the panes will always be a bit warmer than the outside air, lower relative humidity, so condensation will not form between the panes.
If you live in a hot humid region in cooling mode most of the year, it might work to drill the inside. In those conditions it will be lower absolute humidity inside the room than out of doors, and again the cavity will be a bit warmer so will not condense.
If you drill the hole the wrong side then comparatively warm humid air gets into the cavity and reaches a colder pane of glass and condensation forms. That may be the reason some people have reported the technique not working.

Secondly tempered glass:
The glass type question limits where you can use vapour pressure equalisation because, as many people have rightly said, you can't drill tempered glass, and it is often used as exterior lites. Polaroid sunglasses work fine to detect it; if you can't find a brand mark in a corner of the glass and you can't see a pattern of marks through the polaroids (or other polarising filters like 3d glasses, experiment with rotating the lens) then it is probably not tempered.

Hope this helps.


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## NickD

*That E coating could well be the problem.*

Sure most of you used a garden hose to spray off your car or home windows and while wet, the windows were super clear. Just happened to play with a piece of glass from an old double pane argon filled E glass window. That E coating is on the inside of the glass, has a grit like feeling, no smooth like glass.

When spraying the E side with a garden hose with the glass laying on my deck, could barely see my deck as that window really became cloudy. I wiped that side with a clean rag, and when the sun hit it and it dried, it was crystal clear again, but just wiping the E coating with a damp rag, it clouded up like crazy again.

I flipped the glass over with the outside of it facing me, the smooth side, getting water on the outside of the glass does not cloud it up.

Has to be a reaction between that E coating and the slightest bit of moisture.

This particular window was from an old patio door, has a 3/4" thick aluminum frame with approximately 7/32" glass. Gathering in manufacturing that laid the glass on each side, E coating on the inside and some managed to either dip the edges in some kind of soft rubber. It was easy to cut around the sheet of glass from that assembly to remove the glass.

This particular window, foggy, had one tiny corner that was dipped or some kind of automatic applied rubber coating that wasn't properly applied leaving a very tiny crack in that rubber coating. That must be all it takes to have a foggy window.

Piece of glass was 30" wide and 75" high, I was handling it very carefully, but in haste, lifted it off my deck from the center letting the ends bend just a bit. The glass exploded like a bomb just like the side windows of your vehicle with thousands of bubble like pieces all over my deck. Would really think twice about drilling any kind of hole in it.

I found this old door panel at our garbage dump and took it home to play with it to see what I am in for with my own foggy patio doors. I can remove the glass panel, but without a factory, really doubt if I could repair mine. I called my door company, they want 415 bucks for just the glass panel, but only 350 bucks for a new door panel with the glass installed, this whole country is crazy with replacement parts, cheaper to buy new than to buy parts anymore.

Thinking now just about replacing the entire door, we live in a throwaway society today. Looking at a lot of new windows, even with one broken pane of glass, you have to replace the entire window. Now I am interested in learning how more effective these argon filled windows are instead of the old fashion single pane windows with storms, least those could be repaired.

If you have kids, do not buy them a baseball.


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## NickD

*With luck, found a clear glass for my patio door at the garbage dump*

Guy said take it, also had a bottle of Windex and roll of paper towels to make sure it was clear.

Practiced removing the glass from the old frame, that was chopped up for firewood using a razor blade on the inside without hurting the wood.

In inspecting the glass, that rubber seal was perfect at the sides and the top of the glass, but just starting to separate at the bottom. The seal between the molding and the glass wasn't exactly perfect at the point and suspect water is dripping down into the frame.

This gives me a hint to check all my other good windows and doors for leaks at the bottom of the frame. My guess is that water that does get in freezes and is disturbing that rubber seal. Thinking about a thin bead of silicon at the base of each window after a good cleaning.

My door, the door I wrecked, and this one all seem to have the same problem with that rubber seal between the glass and internal aluminum frame at the bottom of the window, that's three out of three.

Perhaps an ounce of prevention will save all of my other windows and doors.

Met a man with young kids that recently purchased a home, ironically new in 1985 just like my home with cloudy windows. Hired a contractor, with these flanged windows, all of the siding had to be removed, but since his was plastic, would crack so all that had to be replaced. Also they couldn't find the exact size, so had to modify the rough opening. I didn't ask him what he paid, but you can assume he not only has his primary mortgage but a second mortgage as well.

I look at the way they are building homes today, pure crap, and wonder if that couple of extra bucks you may save in energy costs is really worth this extra expense.

It's seems perfectly stupid to me they are making doors and windows where you can't even replace the glass. That is stupid, stupid, stupid.


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## NickD

South facing windows are my major problem, but do have a large white pine tree blocking the sun on eight panels, they are okay. Kitchen is my next challenge, and is hit directly by the sun. They want 154 bucks for just the glass, and only another 30 for the complete panel with the glass installed, so I ordered those.

If I did order just the glass, would be a challenge just to change it, the four frame pieces are mitered over that glass and all glued together, heck of a lot easier to glue something than to take it apart.

Got to thinking about the good old single pane windows and storms, all can be cleaned. But what is the cheapest way to get an equivalent of a single pane window and a storm window?

Simple, just slap two pieces of glass in the same frame. Call it energy efficient and charge a bundle for it. Believe that is where we are today.


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## Testers

*Trying it with one hole inside*

I "drilled" one hole in a foggy window by grinding. I'm in no rush, so we'll see how that one hole works by itself, and I'll repost.. 

I used a 30,000RPM Dremel and a "Dremel Silicone Carbide Rotary Tool Grinding Stone". Item #94739 at Lowes, and it costs about $3 bucks. It took less than ten minutes, the tool never bucked, and I never felt like I wasn't in control. I didn't use any kind of sprayer for cooling while grinding, and the hole is clean on the inside and outside edges. Don't push too hard, just let the tool do the work and take away the unwanted material.

Just had a few thoughts to share here... 

If you do this, making the hole(s) inside the house is the *only* way it should be done in my opinion, for several reasons.

First off, you want the windows to keep your house warm or cool. Hopefully, the air in your house is cooler than the outside air in Summer, and warmer than the outside air in Winter. By opening a small hole on the interior of your double pane glass, you are exposing it to the flow (or convection) of air. This minimal flow of your indoor air into the window is still going to push the hot or cold temperature out and a little bit further away from you, thus keeping you warm in Winter and cool in Summer. This is my theory anyway... I think that's why you could feel such a temperature difference in your testing Dan.

Think of it like those expensive heated windows they have for Winter. Instead of electrical energy being used to warm the glass and keep the cold away from you, you're using the power of convective air flow from the heat in your house to warm the interior of the window and keep the cold further from you.

Secondly, if you make these holes outside they are subject to filling with water in a heavy rain.

Thirdly, think of a strong rain followed by a cold snap. A window even slightly full of water is likely to break as that water expands from freezing.

Fourth, if you put the holes outside, you are bringing the outdoor temperature that much closer to you inside. Thus, pretty much negating having a second pane of glass at all. 

Thanks to everyone for contributing to a very helpful and interesting thread! :thumbup:


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## mistaway

hi i am not advertising but giving some advice which i defiantly know about as i have been doing this for 4 years now

there are many presumptions with drilling glass and venting

first of all IT DOES WORK

tools/parts needed 

1 dremmel mains or battery
2 diamond burr(drill) cylinder type 
3 water sprayer
4 valves

i am obviously not go into the full process of repairing DGU's but here is a brief out line if you want more info you can of course contact me if admin and moderators of this forum don't mind

you drill 2 holes in the glass from the outside in opposite corners through 1 lite of course then you apply valves the valves are not too ready available but i know where sorry this part doesn't help much but as i said i am not advertising just helping out 

these so called valves shelter the hole from driving rain and of course stops water getting between glass

the effectiveness of the r value of your DGU is hardly altered and no figures are out as yet

i short the small amount of cold air that enters the DGU is quickly warmed up by either sunlight or indoor heating

i have done 1000,s units and no complaints

hope this help some who doubt and encourages some further


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## vanoricj

*successful defog*

I had about 10 windows defogged 6-7 yrs ago. They are still clean and clear. My cost was only about 10% of replacement cost. I was thrilled with the results and would recommend this option as the best choice vs replacement (not environmenmentally friendly) and status quo as people hate the asthetics of a foggy window.



NickD said:


> *" You need new windows."*
> 
> Thought this was a DIY board with real tips, am a retired engineer, not one of those guys that sat behind a desk, have a complete metal, wood, and electronics shop and like to do everything myself. For one thing, a means to beat the credit card companies and the IRS, if some guy is charging you 70 bucks an hour for something you can do yourself, you actually end up paying over twice the price as you are using post tax dollars, and if you have to pay interest, just another slap in your pocket book. I built my own home in 1970 while carrying on a full time job, with good buying and hard work, had it paid off in three years. Also do all my own vehicle work, but do have my Ram reflashed now at the dealer, not about to pay $7,500.00 for the equipment required just for a particular brand of vehicle. Think this reflashing is crazy.
> 
> Another thing that is crazy is argon filled windows, I had to sell my own built home because of a job change and purchased my present home in 1985, it's paid off, been for, for some time, take good care of it, but also sharing your problems with foggy windows, I have six out of 45 panes that are foggy, was only four last year, two more this year.
> 
> Saving 60 t0 70% off the cost of new windows doesn't sound very good to me to have some guy come out to my home and make a mess out of it. Drilling a couple of holes is no big deal, I have the tools to get those holes to within +/- 0.0001" if I have to but they refuse to sell me those check valves. Then they claim to use a proprietary cleaning solution, what? Soap and water? Maybe even denatured alcohol, I have both air compressors, shop vacuums, and even a good sized vacuum pump and can experiment if need be. They talk about silica jel, I don't see that stuff in my windows.
> 
> And I don't throw away my dirty dishes either.
> 
> I feel like I was ripped off, not only by Koebe & Koebe that has no solutions, you are out of warranty, twenty years ago, they would sell direct to me, now it's strictly going to some lumber company that doesn't even have a parts book. They tell me to bring a window in and leave it there for a couple of weeks until the no-nothing rep comes around, how stupid do people think I and the rest of us are? And then to have to pay a huge markup on that stuff.
> 
> We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.
> 
> Then there is the building inspector to deal with, believe the main requirement to get these jobs besides being a brother-in-law to the mayor is to have an IQ less than 1.998. Ran into this about replacing the hot water heater, wanted to install one of these new high effeciency forced ventilated heaters. First I can't install one in the basement because the snow may getter higher than the PVC vents, but why to you permit forced ventilated furnaces in the basement? Duh!!! And why can't I raise these cheap pipes a couple of feet? Besides with my overhangs, no snow every gets near the house anyway. You just can't do that. But after finding about all the problems with these heaters, extra electrical, failure of the control mechanism, but to top everything else off including one a one year warranty on the Chinese made electronic garbage, they only save 20 therms per year at an initial installation cost of several hundreds more.
> 
> Where is the savings in either these water heaters or argon filled windows? It's stupid and downright criminal to the home owner, and what about the guy with a 30 year mortgage and every increasing property taxes and interest rates? Work your can off just to end up with a pile of junk?
> 
> There has to be a way where a guy can clean and reclaim these windows, after 23 years, they still look new, except for that stupid fog in between the glasses. If I find anything, and I am looking, will let you know, already thought about painting them black.


----------



## fenestrationman

I have read a few comments on this subject. Quite interesting. In the comments that state that this system works, did the fogged unit have low e coating? Was it a hard coat or soft coat? Low e is a micro thin metallic material. In the soft coats, the failed unit, due to the presence of moisture begin to oxydize(rust). Just curious as how this is handled.
thanks for the input.


----------



## NickD

Our problem is only on the windows facing south, I did buy new casement panels for our kitchen window, was 150 bucks just for the glass, 180 for the glass with new frames, but those have to be varnished. Needed two of those. Did the frames as well, now it looks like a brand new window. That gave me the old panels to play with.

Unlike what the Kolbe rep told me, I was able to unsnap the exterior plastic moldings by using a heat gun. Unlike our patio door that had both moisture and e-glass cloudiness, these panels were perfectly sealed. I played with all kinds of window cleaners, only thing that works is a polishing compound with an electric buffer, but still not perfect. Then the problem of resealing the windows again. Kitchen window is the worse, but would cost me another 1800 bucks to replace all the windows with new panels on the south facing wall plus will be getting new weather stripping with it. Easiest and most reliable thing for me to do, is to replace them, one by one. It only take a couple of minutes to replace the panels.

Find this U-factor crazy, the reciprocal of R factor with an R factor range of from 1 to 3, they are all poor compared to an R-22 wall, but claim they are energy efficient. Just fraction of an improvement with argon filled windows compared to dry air. But don't read about how much energy you will save over a ten year span. But sure are going into a hole if you have to replace them. Wife saw a home with a two story great room she liked with floor to ceiling argon filled windows, said I don't think we would want that. She agreed. And read the fine print on the warranty. Baseballs are excluded. Couldn't find the U-factor on good old fashion storms, had those in our last home, was easy to replace both the glass, and to clean them.

Feel we live in a era of BS, son's high energy savings furnace blower went out after 13 mounts, 1/2 HP just like my 25 year old motor. Got a new piece of crap under warranty, they never varnished the stator windings if you can believe that that caused rubbing of the magnet wire shorting it out. Bought along my power analyser, is new motor was pulling 400 watts under no load, where my old Made in the USA motor only pulls 75 watts. This is a sign of undersized magnet wire and over saturated magnetics, but yet, his is energy efficient where mine is not. It's all BS, and especially from our government.


----------



## pplui

WOW, what a great thread!!

I just bought a 17 year old house in winterpeg.
All the windows are tri-panes (glass sandwich made of three sheets with two spacers in the middle).
Here, in winterpeg, we have extreme cold. The temperature in the winter can go down to -40 celsius (-15 farenheit)

Two of the windows have fog.

Should i drill also the middle glass to allow ventilation in the two empty cavities?

Thanks!!


----------



## eqppwqqep

I am sure this thread is long and dead, but I just drilled out a badly condensed kitchen window and thought I would share that process and ask a few questions at the same time.

I didn't have any of the stuff required, so I had to buy drill, bits, tubing, syringe, etc. My total cost was something like $15. This is why:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94076

That dude right there will put holes in your windows without having to buy an $80 dremmel. I am sure this won't last as long as a dremmel, but it sure spins faster and strong enough to bore out glass. It comes with the diamond bits as well.

I set the dremmel in place on the upper-left corner (inside) and began drilling with the cone shaped bit. It took about 5 minutes to come through and made a 2mm hole (roughly). Then I did the bottom right corner (inside). 10 mins and $10 later, I had access to the cavity of my double-pane window. 

Mind you the window had so much vapor in it that it was constantly wet. It literally looked like my double-pane was a single pane on a rainy day. I took my syringe and stuck it in the hole and shot 10ml of windex right into some condensation. Bang, instant clarity. That was the end of that because my syringe only shot maybe 6 inches in this 29" pane of glass. I decided to hunt down 1/8"OD tubing...heh. 

NO SUCH ANIMAL EXISTS IN MY PART OF THE WORLD. I couldn't find it to save my life. I thought either I'd have to just fill up the window or make the hole bigger. Instead I got some of this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98073 except in 1/4" variety and heated it. using its 2:1 shrink ration, I got my 1/8" tubing relatively easy. I ran it in the window and sprayed most what I could reach. The problem I have is my window has crossbracing and this stops the spray and tubing from going past halfway in the window. Next step is to flood the window and drain it.

My question to you all is how long did it take after cleaning for the condensation to dissappear? I let mine sit all weekend and it really didn't change. I did make the holes a little bigger tonight (probably 3/16"). These defogging companies state they make 2mm holes, a tad bigger than 1/8" I suppose. I figure this is worth a shot considering i'm only out $14 and the time spent vs a $120 window. Thoughts?


----------



## Turbotail

Loved your post! Especially the last sentence...


----------



## TjbDIY

*Going to give this a try...*

I'm going to give this a try on this guy:










Has anyone used a variable speed drill with a 3/16" cobalt and tungsten carbide tip drill bit? I don't have a dremel, but do have those 2 pieces of equipment.

The last thing I want to do is crack this puppy and make it look even worse than it already does. If a dremel is a requirement over a drill I'm happy to go and buy one.

Thanks in advance, and once again, great thread!


----------



## eqppwqqep

Let me strongly suggest you get one of those $9 rotary drills from Harbor Freight. You'll need the speed to cleanly drill through the glass. I though about using my regular drill to through glass but it looked harder to control and a little less precise. It took about 4 mins per hole with that Harbor Freight tool.

BTW, my window has cleared completely. it took about 1 week to do so. Now off to find "valves"...probably 3M gause tape.



TjbDIY said:


> I'm going to give this a try on this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone used a variable speed drill with a 3/16" cobalt and tungsten carbide tip drill bit? I don't have a dremel, but do have those 2 pieces of equipment.
> 
> The last thing I want to do is crack this puppy and make it look even worse than it already does. If a dremel is a requirement over a drill I'm happy to go and buy one.
> 
> Thanks in advance, and once again, great thread!


----------



## eqppwqqep

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94076

BTW, here is the tool. You can order online to have shipped. I would stick with that. That's not to say that the regular drill wouldn't work, but why change it up when you are nearly guaranteed a clean hole with a $10 tool? it comes with several diamond bits.:thumbup:


----------



## TjbDIY

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the reply, I actually found an old black and decker rotary tool ( dremel like ) that I got as a gift about 10 years ago and promptly forgot about. I bought a $3 dremel bit from Home Depot and made 2 holes in opposing corners of the window.

It was no problem at all, each hole took about 10-15 mins, I used little to no pressure and let the tool do the work, the holes are really clean.

I'll wait for the window to defog and then decide if I need to clean it with a syringe before adding some kind of valve / tape solution.

Thanks again for a great thread, I'll post pics of my process start to finish once I'm done.


----------



## eqppwqqep

TjbDIY said:


> Thanks for the reply, I actually found an old black and decker rotary tool ( dremel like ) that I got as a gift about 10 years ago and promptly forgot about. I bought a $3 dremel bit from Home Depot and made 2 holes in opposing corners of the window.
> 
> It was no problem at all, each hole took about 10-15 mins, I used little to no pressure and let the tool do the work, the holes are really clean.
> 
> I'll wait for the window to defog and then decide if I need to clean it with a syringe before adding some kind of valve / tape solution.
> 
> Thanks again for a great thread, I'll post pics of my process start to finish once I'm done.


I should have made pics of mine. I am astounded with the results. I literally had water droplet running down between my panes. It looked like someone was getting up before me every day and spraying inside the window pane with a garden hose. 1 week later and absolutely no moisture. One thing I will recommend is that you let all the moisture in there dry out before trying to clean. Had I done this, I wouldn't have to clean it out now. I actually inserted more junk in the window than was originally there.


----------



## TjbDIY

*Quick update...*

Drilled my holes with no problem and waited 9 days...so far the fogging in the window has not really improved, it's changed ( got better, then worse ) a few times, but overall is not improved.

Next stop is to make the drilled holes larger I think...any other advice?

Thanks!


----------



## eqppwqqep

TjbDIY said:


> Drilled my holes with no problem and waited 9 days...so far the fogging in the window has not really improved, it's changed ( got better, then worse ) a few times, but overall is not improved.
> 
> Next stop is to make the drilled holes larger I think...any other advice?
> 
> Thanks!


I'd wait more. Mine took about 15 days. If you make the holes bigger, you can't make them smaller again.


----------



## TjbDIY

*No love...*

Well, sadly this isn't working for me. I've tried making the holes larger which helped initially. However, the window seems to be in a perpetual state of gradual defogging which is most pronounced in the areas closest to the holes, then next morning back to square one.

Not sure if there's anything else I can try before I bite the expensive new pane bullet - I really hoped this would work. 

The holes I have are a little over 1/8 of an inch in the top right / bottom left of the window, not sure if I could make them any bigger. I guess the size of the window could be a problem, it's a big one, I'm guessing 5ft tall and 2ft wide.

Any other ideas are greatly appreciated!


----------



## susanhough

Did you ever find a solution to your fog problem in the windows? I have the same thing and refuse to pay some idiot a ton of money for something simple. I got the drilling 2mm holes part, but what do I use to clean the inside? I hope you found something that works, because these defogging companies are a total rip off!!
Sue


----------



## TjbDIY

*susanhough *- this didn't really work for me, I suspect that my window is too large for the process - it's about 5ft tall by 2ft wide. It has worked for plenty of people though so I would give it a shot for sure, nothing to lose if you do it carefully.

I currently have 2 holes in my window ( both about 1/8 inch diameter ), one top right, one bottom left. Does anyone think this may work better for such a large window if I open up 2 more holes so I have 1 hole in each of the 4 corners? Maybe open 2 more on each side halfway up also? As it stands right now the window is still well fogged after at least 3 weeks of having the original 2 holes opened.

Any help is very gratefully received. Anyone? Anyone?


----------



## ccarlisle

I got suckered earlier this month by them and have placed a claim with PayPal.


----------



## fenestrationman

I have been following this post for a while now and I am still skeptical as to how this is accomplished. I had replied a while back see below.

I have read a few comments on this subject. Quite interesting. In the comments that state that this system works, did the fogged unit have low e coating? Was it a hard coat or soft coat? Low e is a micro thin metallic material. In the soft coats, the failed unit, due to the presence of moisture begin to oxydize(rust). Just curious as how this is handled.
Thanks for the input.


----------



## ccarlisle

Got my refund from PayPal today too!


----------



## ccarlisle

I might have a source. PM me...


----------



## SEP

ccarlisle said:


> I might have a source. PM me...


Can't PM. 

Thanks


----------



## PTP WX

TjbDIY said:


> I currently have 2 holes in my window ( both about 1/8 inch diameter ), one top right, one bottom left. Does anyone think this may work better for such a large window if I open up 2 more holes so I have 1 hole in each of the 4 corners? Maybe open 2 more on each side halfway up also? As it stands right now the window is still well fogged after at least 3 weeks of having the original 2 holes opened.
> 
> Any help is very gratefully received. Anyone? Anyone?


Do you have a work horse shop light? I am thinking that the volume of air inside a window that size may not be venting effectively thus leaving the higher humidity values inside the window. I am thinking out loud here, and don't want to cause any damage, but I am thinking that you point a very bright shop light toward the bottom hole. I wouldn't get the light to close to the glass, just aimed at the side and bottom of the window pane. Heating the inside of the pane would 1) cause the air inside to expand and force more air exchange, especially out of the top hole. 2) the heated air would drop the relative humidity and vaporize the remaining condesation, hopefully venting it out the top hole.

Just some thoughts from a meteorologist and former contractor! Good luck.


----------



## matthewb

Does anyone have any information as to acquiring the one-way valves? I am wanting to do this myself, and I can't find where to get them.

Thanks!


----------



## matthewb

Anyone? Still have had no luck locating and kind of valve.


----------



## ccarlisle

Again: 
I might have a source. PM me...


----------



## matthewb

ccarlisle said:


> Again:
> I might have a source. PM me...


Ok, will do.


----------



## sam3

*Defogging double-pane windows*

I haven't tried it yet, but I believe a window could be quickly defogged by filling a small cylinder (about 1" diameter by 6" long) with silica gel and attaching tubing to each end. Insert one end of the tubing into one of the holes in the glass and supply air to the other end of the cylinder. A small air compressor or manual pump could be used. A simple squeeze bulb could also be used, but it would need to be disconnected for refilling each time. BE CAREFUL TO NOT OVER PRESSURIZE THE SPACE BETWEEN THE GLASS. Even a small pressure will exert a large force on the large area of glass. Some filter material, such as cotton, should be placed in the downstream end of the cylinder to prevent any of the silica gel from being expelled. All moisture will be removed from the supply air, and the very dry air should remove the moisture from the window. Silica gel can usually be purchased at a crafts store. "Indicating" large-grain silica gel is best so you can tell when it is saturated with moisture. The indicating material usually changes color from blue to pink as it picks up moisture. The saturated silica gel can be regenerated by drying in a microwave oven.


----------



## SEP

*Searching for Defogging valves*

Hi All,
I've been searching for valves and sieves companies for awhile and I came up with this one, Defogsupplies but they are a bit pricey. They sell the 1/2" valves in cards of 25 for $150 and the sieves for $112.50. Don't know anything else about the company (good or bad) so you're on your own.
I'll continue my search. Good Luck.


----------



## fixawindow.com

*popped seals*

While it's true that some companies are having some success "removing the fog" out of leaking IGU's. they will tell you that only 50% of the glass units they run into can be cleaned up and if it's etched with mineral deposits from the condensation you are out of luck.

Glass breakage while drilling, repeat visits for second applications, etc. are commonplace I am told by a franchisor. While I was intrigued enough to research the process, I decided that I would stay the course and replace a bad IGU instead.

A qualified glazing contractor can replace the glass unit for much less than replacing the window and give you a 10 year warranty on the IGU and a longer warranty period on a ETCC glass unit to boot.

While you can experiment with one way valves to let the moisture escape. it seems to me that a new glass unit will win hands down, while looking and performing better than the "defogging" method.


----------



## ccarlisle

_"ETCC glass unit" _

Define that for us.

So let me understand: you're saying that the inside surfaces of an IGU become etched (with acid rain, I presume) and can't be cleaned? How does the acid water or vapour get in there in sufficient amount to etch glass? 

Mineral deposits come from hard water...Why wouldn't mineral deposits be removable? are they resistant to acids where you are? I know it would be difficult, especially in IGUs but that doesn't mean they're permanent.

Sure a $500 IGU would look better than a $125 visit from a defogger but not everyone has the same standards. That's why dollar stores exist and why they still make Rolls-Royce cars to move people from A to B... 

"Chacun a son gout" as they say in German.


----------



## fixawindow.com

What I am saying ccarlisle is, the residue left from the moisture in IGU's dries and bakes in the sun. You will notice a whitish looking stain on surface 2 or 3 or both. This residue which is deposits in the moisture cannot be removed by the defogging method. The main reason is they cook inside the glass unit and get crusty, nevermind the damage it also causes the glass surface. It is my understanding that the success rate of defogging the IGU depends on when you apply it. If you draw the drapes and wait too long the technology doesn't work. It also, in my estimation, will not work if one of the pieces of glass delaminates from the spacer which happens all the time. Can you clean it off? One company has a little magnet and they stick a scraping tool in the IGU and you move it with an exterior magnet on surface 1 or 4 and it gets some of it off. It's the same as cleaning an aquarium interior surface with that sponge magnet deal. Those of you that ever had or has an aquaruim know what I mean.

It's not a question of dollar store vs Macey's or Rolls Royce vs Carolla. It's a question of the right thing to do vs the wrong thing to do for a particular application. I don't think "Chacun a son gout" is the deal. It is not a matter of personal preference. It's a matter of what is going to work over the long haul.

By the way, ETCC is Energy Tax Credit Compliant glass. This glass has a SHGC of.30 or less and a Ufactor of .30 or less.


----------



## ccarlisle

OK, fixawindow, I hear ya! The whitish mineral salts are calcium and magnesium salts from hard water vapour that leaks into the IGU around the spacers. We have only slightly hard water up here so we don't see that problem as much and even if we did, it would be hard to dissolve them. How did they get those magnetic sponges into the IGU?

Boy, a lot of people would be broke if the "right thing to do" was the only criteria for doing something. Sure wearing a $1000 Georgio Armani suit is -in some circles - the "right" thing to do but nowhere is there any definition of the "right thing". This isn't wiring an electrical panel, or plumbing a gas water heater - this is making a choice between a $125 item and a $500 item. Every man has his thing, and hopefully all we can do is educate the buyer into the choices that are out there.

If I bring up all the disadvantages to doing a defogging job and all the advantages of replacing the complete IGU or window, then present the $$ involved, I'd still get alot of business. 

My analogy about the cars was just that: I can present all the advantages of driving to your mother-in-laws Sunday dinner in $140,000 Silver Shadow, and then the disadvantages of going in a Rambler and my Rambler would _still_ be used. No accounting for taste! LOL:laughing:

You seem to have good knowledge on all this; hope you'll stick around!

PS: Thanks for the "ETCC" clarification; don't know if we have the same thing up here.


----------



## Scuba_Dave

I think its also a matter of what people can afford to do
I've replaced all of our windows in the past 5 years
But if I was faced with doing that today I would have to pass/postpone as not affordable right now


----------



## fixawindow.com

*affordability*

Replacement glass is affordable. It will last a minimum of ten years and longer if you buy a quality IGU and have it installed by a quality reglazing company. There are plenty of ways to save money on glass repair. Just like there are many ways to get a 1000.00 suit for 199.00. A Silver Shadow to Rambler would be a good analogy if we were talking about glass replacement or a new top of the line Marvin window. We are talking about used tires or new tires for your Rambler. new tires will last longer and probably be a better value. The right thing to do isn't always a have or have not issue. It isn't always an affordable or not affordable issue either. It usually is about getting the right information to make a good decision


----------



## ccarlisle

We installed 3 commercial windows for a restaurant front up here, double pane, 5mm glass (3/16ths), 19/32nd" separation with an aluminum spacer, approx 48"x66" each, in a simple aluminum frame - and they took 6 weeks to get! 

Cost about a grand each, and although competively-priced for a city of 3 million people, I really scratched my head at the delay. So my question: if it's relatively affordable, who's making all the money? or do we have a questionable supplier.

If it's affordable, it means that there are enough suppliers to fill the demand and prices are in line with their perceived value. But where's the catch? glass is cheap, aluminum is too. So making an IGU to fit into a frame is... what?...hard? specialized? difficult? time-consuming? labour- intensive? high standards to meet?

:huh:


----------



## fixawindow.com

C,

Six weeks to get a thermal glass unit? I don't know how it works north of the border but quite frankly, I would be looking for different vendors were it down here. Turn around on that glass in the states is 7-10 business days. As far as your cost per unit, I would say based on what we do here you should be shopping around for other vendors.


----------



## matthewb

Mishael said:


> SEP, I placed an order with defogsupplies about 8 weeks ago. I still haven't gotten all of my order, and the owner won't call me back. I have tried numerous times to get him on the phone. Had to buy a Canada calling card to afford to call him as many times as I've had to. His employee screens the calls it seems. She never puts me through to him. I've left emails and gotten zero replies. From my experience I definitely cannot recommend him.


Many thanks for the heads-up! I am sorry to hear they ripped you off and wont even talk to you. I hope you can get your money back.


----------



## SEP

Mishael said:


> SEP, I placed an order with defogsupplies about 8 weeks ago. I still haven't gotten all of my order, and the owner won't call me back. I have tried numerous times to get him on the phone. Had to buy a Canada calling card to afford to call him as many times as I've had to. His employee screens the calls it seems. She never puts me through to him. I've left emails and gotten zero replies. From my experience I definitely cannot recommend him.


Mishael
Thanks for your posting. I hope you can get you money back. 
So, fellow members have tried Defogkits and Defogsupplies without ever getting products, phone calls or emails returned. Why can't we find any reputable DeFog Kit merchants? Does anybody out there know of anyone that actually purchased AND received any defog kit supplies from a vendor? I'll keep researching it too. Mishael, let everyone know if you get your refund.


----------



## SEP

*Stick on Vents*



Mishael said:


> Well, I was showing one of the vents to my dad today and noticed something that I had missed. The paper that I would peel off to expose the sticky side of the vent is on the opposite side as the bubbled side of the vent. So that means when I stick the vent to the glass, the bubbled side will be sticking OUT! I wasn't sent any instructions with these vents, but I wouldn't think the bubbled side should be sticking out. It should go INTO the drilled hole, right? These are worthless.


Mishael
Where did you finally end up getting the vents?
I haven't seen the adhesive type vents, but just from looking at the vents that come on the bags of coffee, I noticed that the bump is on the outside of the bag. No instructions came with the products I guess?
Again, let us know where you got the vents and how they perform.
Good Luck
SEP


----------



## matthewb

*I had the procedure done..*

I have a 2x5 slider that had moisture in between the panes. The repair procedure was done professionally in November. I was told it would take up to 10 weeks to clear. After a little over 3 weeks the window was clear. There is a tiny bit of white etching on parts of the glass (obviously not their fault), but you have to be right up on the window to see it. So far, no problems and I am pleased. Since this process has sucessfully been proven to me, this is not a gimmick as far as I am concerend.

Matt


----------



## Giles

How I did mine.---I am not suggesting that anyone follow my procedure, but I chose a little different drilling method.
Instead of drilling through the glass, I went through the framework. You have to be very precise and careful to drill between the panes of glass. I went through the frame, straight down on the upper left corner and through the bottom righ hand corner. I drilled the "butal rubber" that separates the glass panes, by hand.
It has been about 10 hours since I did this and the panes are almost clear. There was enough moisture in the window that it was running down the panes. 
I plan to just leave the 1/8" holes and see what happens. If it fogs again, I will seal the holes and see what happens.


----------



## ccarlisle

_site link removed_

I haven't ordered from them yet.


----------



## Sunadan

*Defogging Valves*

In response to Mishael. We are DefogSupplies and we would like to set the matter straight, If you placed an order that you have not recieved that would be news to me and I am the Owner.

Could it be that you have not paid your bill, and on the other matter of not returning calls, I sincerely doubt that, I have been serving the industry for 5 years with great success and excellent customer communication and support, so yes we take exception to your post and strongly defend our track record.

Could it be that we refused to sell to you and you are upset. *Defog Supplies only sells to the trade, we do not sell to the DIY's* because
we are set-up to support them technicaly.

If any readers have questions we will gladly response and answer your questions as best we can,
Thank You


----------



## ccarlisle

Sunadan said:


> In response to Mishael. We are DefogSupplies and we would like to set the matter straight, If you placed an order that you have not recieved that would be news to me and I am the Owner.
> 
> Could it be that you have not paid your bill, and on the other matter of not returning calls, I sincerely doubt that, I have been serving the industry for 5 years with great success and excellent customer communication and support, so yes we take exception to your post and strongly defend our track record.
> 
> Could it be that we refused to sell to you and you are upset. *Defog Supplies only sells to the trade, we do not sell to the DIY's* because
> we are set-up to support them technicaly.
> 
> If any readers have questions we will gladly response and answer your questions as best we can, _e-mail removed_
> Thank You


I placed an order for valves from Defogkits via PayPal. After emails and an attempt to phone them, there was no response. I waited 6-8 weeks before I contacted PayPal again to ask for their help. They were not succesful in reaching them either.

Therefore I cancelled the order. They were quick at taking the money but offer nothing to show for order fulfilment. I conclude they are full of it. Why as Canadians we put up with mediocre business people is beyond me.


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## ccarlisle

I corrected my earlier post...


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## Scuba_Dave

Since Defog supplies has stated they *do not sell to DIY* this matter is closed in regards to that company


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## Sunadan

*Defogging Problem*

Re: *Mischael* in defense of Defog Supplies which is me, why don't you post your real name, or better yet contact me.


I will report back to this forum. You ordered valves and did not get right?
well come out of hidding and lets find out the thruth.

My name is Hector and I am President of Defog Supplies.


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## Nathan

Glad you got a chance to respond "Sundan". Hopefully these matters will get resolved soon. Since there seemed to be some question about *Mishael* posts I went ahead and removed them since it's a customer service issue that is beyond the scope of DIYChatroom.com


Sunadan said:


> *Defog Supplies only sells to the trade, we do not sell to the DIY's*


If this is not a DIY product it sounds like there is no need to discuss this any further than.

I'm closing this thread.

Thanks,


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