# Shower installation



## Trucon01 (Jan 10, 2012)

Yes, that is fine and he is correct. The thinset is waterproof, in that it can be used in showers. The tile which is also waterproof, which will cover the gap as well as the grout. Lastly, once the tile is set in and grouted, make sure he or you go over it with a bead of caulk all the way around. Now you have 2 layers of waterproofing . 

If you knew you were tiling, concrete board should/could have been used instead of the drywall, but it is a little more expensive and heavier


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

In my opinion to install tile in a shower onto ONLY drywall is wrong. Grout does leach water to its backside eventually. Other choices are to use a cement board for a backer or a waterproof membrane like Schluter-Ditra.

A 3' x 5' piece of 1/2 cement board is a little more expensive than a sheet of drywall but worth the extra money for the added protection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4HFGNKCQkw&feature=channel&list=UL


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Are you sure that's drywall? I've never seen drywall that dark a color.
Drywall in a shower area should never have been used.
It looks like they ran whatever that stuff is down behind the shower pan, which os a no no.
The wall should have been shimed and the material should have been installed
So it just runs past the pans lip on top. The tile would cover the rest of the gap to about 1/4 from the rim then silicone caulking would have sealed it.
Thin set is not waterproof like the other poster suggested.
If possible have them hold off, we have some really good tiles guys on here that will look over what you have. That's all they do is tile work and will give you some great info.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

scar72 said:


> he said it was the correct way to do it and that the tile/grout would be sufficient protection from the water. Is he right?


No...he is incorrect.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

That shower may be be a nightmare within a few years. :yes: STOP!

Tell us what that substrate is exactly. At first I thought it might be DenShield, but it's too dark. I've seen dark green and purple colored moisture resistant board. The walls should have been shimmed so the boards clear the flange for best results. The corner treatment looks orange in color, is it kerdi Band? 

You said;


> He put some kind of vapor barrier over the drywall but it didn't extend over the gaps.


What would that be and how about some updated pics? 

Some people should re-think the meaning of waterproof as it relates to holding back water in a shower. Thin set, grout, tiles, although may not be adversely affected by water when used properly, will not make a shower waterproof. The shower should be waterproofed BEFORE the tiles are installed. 

Is the installer a handyman or carpenter type? 

Jaz


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## scar72 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I haven't been around when the contractor has been doing the work, but I think he applied some kind of red substance to the drywall (or whatever it is) with a roller. The tiles are now installed so I can't see what else he did.

The guy has an established kitchen and bathroom business so I had assumed he knew what he was doing, but this particular part of the work didn't look right to me.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

scar72 said:


> Thanks for the replies. I haven't been around when the contractor has been doing the work, but I think he applied some kind of red substance to the drywall (or whatever it is) with a roller. The tiles are now installed so I can't see what else he did.
> 
> The guy has an established kitchen and bathroom business so I had assumed he knew what he was doing, but this particular part of the work didn't look right to me.


We can help if you use your eyes to show us what was done and with which specific products. If those sheets are moisture resistant wall board, it's the wrong product for wet areas unless covered with certain products. If the red stuff was Redgard, then it is the wrong stuff to apply over wall board. 

The whole thing was done wrong. Especially the lower half. Got more pics of the process?



> The guy has an established kitchen and bathroom business so I had assumed he knew what he was doing


Well, if he had even seen one done the right way he would know this was not right. I'd like to see how he handled the drywall (?) to flange interface. 

Jaz


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## retired guy 60 (Jun 23, 2009)

Might be Denshield which has a waterproof coating and is blue in color. Redguard covers the screw holes and seams which should have thinset and not drywall compound applied prior to the Redguard. Agreed, the "board" should have been shimmed so the tiles overlap the base. I'd like to see the finished tile job, particularly the base.


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## oldrivers (May 2, 2009)

my method is to use 2 layers of 1/4 inch tile backer board , its twice as expensive cause it cost the same as 1/2 inch , but what you can do is put up 1 layer down to the flange of the shower pan then seal up the joints with mortar , then i install the second layer of 1/4 inch past the flange then seal the joints again , but when you install the 2nd layer stager your joints so that there is no seam from front to back , also the corners are stepped so if a crack develops in the corner its not a straight through to the wood , by the time the tile is on there are 4 angles for water to get past. 

heres a little diagram of what i mean , i left gaps so you could see the different layers , i figure pay double so you get the best defense from water penetrating to the back from cracked grout etc.


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## scar72 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks again for the advice. I've attached a more few pictures, including a close-up of where the shower lever will go in case anyone can see what kind of material was used. I'll ask the contractor to describe in detail what he did.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Sorry Oldrivers but what you've shown us is a big waste of time and money, it's not as sturdy and doing all the staggers etc. does not make it waterproof. Did you dream up of that all by yourself? Back to the drawing board. Why try to re-invent the wheel? 

!/4" as you know, (?) is not for walls, it's too flimsy for 16" o.c. fastening. You'd also have to laminate the sheets to get a stiff wall.

Please refer us to any manufacturer's instructions or the TCNA method that represents this method. 

Jaz


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Scar,

Sorry, but the pics don't show much, mostly the tiles. That doesn't tell us anything. We can see what looks like a gypsum product from the hole for the valve, but it could be WR board or Denshield. Why don't you just tell us what you and the contractor agreed to use, read the contract or the receipts. Or maybe look at the left over scrap or? 

Jaz


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## scar72 (May 2, 2012)

Good suggestion about the scrap, Jaz. I went through the rubble and found some pieces of the blue stuff, although I don't know if that's what is behind the tiles (I will confirm later): it's Humitek Sheetrock gypsum panels (1/2po X 4pi X 8pi). Does this help?

http://www.cgcinc.com/en/products/panels/interior-panels/mould--moisture-resistant-panels/sheetrock%C2%AE-humitek%E2%84%A2-gypsum-panels.aspx?pType=DIY

http://www.cgcinc.com/en/products/p...uld--moisture-resistant-panels.aspx?pType=PRO


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## oldrivers (May 2, 2009)

JazMan said:


> Sorry Oldrivers but what you've shown us is a big waste of time and money, it's not as sturdy and doing all the staggers etc. does not make it waterproof. Did you dream up of that all by yourself? Back to the drawing board. Why try to re-invent the wheel?
> 
> !/4" as you know, (?) is not for walls, it's too flimsy for 16" o.c. fastening. You'd also have to laminate the sheets to get a stiff wall.
> 
> ...



well after being in the construction trade for almost 30 years now and seeing almost every method fail i started using my own methods. i dont go by national standards . why would 2 layers of 1/4 inch tile backer board be flimsier than any 1/2 inch drywall product? i use dura rock or that other solid material much stronger than any drywall based product . and maybe its not water proof but there is always a solid back behind any seem. im not a tiler but to me it makes more sense than most procedures out there. but ill put my money on tile backer board being less flimsy than a 1/2 inch drywall product even 2 layers of 1/4 inch . green board, blue board not for me. i was just pointing out my DIY method. if 1 layer of board cracks it doesnt crack through the second layer. seems like common sense to me . all these new products have not been around long enough to know if they pass the test of time anyways.


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## oldrivers (May 2, 2009)

also 1 more thing, looks like you used drywall tape and mud that is not mold resistant or moisture resistant . you just negated any benefit of using that board material . maybe im wrong but thats what it looks like anyways polagise if im mistaken ..


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Did you read the lmitations on that type board?
Says right on it not for use in a shower!
http://www.cgcinc.com/media/22582/sr_hmtx_data_sht.pdf

Would have been fine for the rest of the walls but not in the shower.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Have you paid them yet?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Yup, just as we thought. Wrong stuff, wrong handyman.

Jaz


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## retired guy 60 (Jun 23, 2009)

Sorry but it really was the wrong stuff for a shower enclosure, However, it seems like a decent product for the bathroom walls, not including the shower area. See if the contactor will acknowledge his error and make some accomodation. However, I would like to share with you one of my first goofs, made about thirty years ago. It might make you feel a little better, I had just bought my first home and decided to gut the bathroom. Not knowing any better I used greenboard in the bathtub area with a vapor barrier behind the greenboard and mastic to hold the tiles. Any pro here will call that a recipe for disaster and he would be right. Ten years later I did a second remodel of that bathroom. The tiles I put up were stuck solid and there was no sign of mold. I expected the worst during demolition but nothing bad had happened. I guess I was lucky.
Now in your case you hired a man who held himself out as an expert. You had the right to have the work done correctly which it was not. So you have a legitimate gripe. IF you pay for professional work you deserve professional work. And don't blame yourself for your pros mistakes.


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## retired guy 60 (Jun 23, 2009)

Scar72
If you want to see if any other aspects of your tile job don't meet professional muster I suggest two simple tests:

1. Place a straight edge about three feet long (could be a level, yard stick on edge, a straight piece of 2x4) on the bottom of the lowest tile going up vertically. Does the straight edge touch all tiles that it covers? I doubt that it will. It should if the installation was done correctly.
2. Place the esctcheon plate (that decorative plumbing fixture that sits behind the shower lever) over the large irregular opening that your contractor left by cutting tiles and the drywall and see if it covers the entire opening. It is supposed to, not only for cosmetic reasons but to keep water and water vapor from getting into the wall.

Hope this helps.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Those are typical moisture-resistant gypsum panels bought from a big-box store in Canada. Equivalent to US 'greenboard'. MAAX is also a Canadian manufacturer of shower components and whose products are also available from big-box stores in Canada.

This base is one component of a complete acrylic shower assembly, including three wall components - which together give you a waterproof shower. The instructions for insertion of a shower base into an alcove are quite clear on the fact that bases are to be installed against the studs, not the drywall.

This is a bad installation; yet not uncommmon, and will last you maybe 5 years before mould sets in.


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## scar72 (May 2, 2012)

It turns out that the contractor used Redgard over the gypsum panels. I will be talking to him tomorrow (when he expects to get paid).


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## bryan1282 (Sep 29, 2009)

Looks like blue board to me, i think you plaster over the entire board instead of just the joints and the blue paper absorbs the moisture from the plaster to help hold it. Have also seen it on HGTV shows based in canada as a previous poster stated. Please let me recommend Schluter Kerdi shower systems, these things are the BOMB! its a bit expensive up front, but how many times do you wanna redo your shower? i only wanna do it once. its one big kit in 3 or 4 sizes and its easy to install. Thinset and grout is not waterproof, at the very least cement board should have been used and all the joints waterproofed with mesh tape and a waterproofing product. I used schluter kerdi shower kit.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

scar72


> It turns out that the contractor used Redgard over the gypsum panels. I will be talking to him tomorrow (when he expects to get paid).


Gypsum board should not be used in wet areas. They were never intended for wet areas, but were used anyway since there is no inspection standards in many places. Redgard is not for use over wallboard, green board, blue board, purple board etc. 

Jaz


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

I'd make one exception to not using gypsum panels in a shower and that's 'unless it's under Kerdi'; otherwise I wouldn't use any gypsum panels. 

Now the difference in cost between using and not using Kerdi isn't all that much and should be properly explained to the homeowner before the work starts, selling a better shower that will last longer than the 3-5 years normal construction wil give you. But if the homeowner doesn't go for it, then normally they're at the mercy of the installer who may just read the blurb on 'RedGard' and take it for gospel that it can be used over drywall and under tiles. Maybe in the US it can (where there isn't the temperature drive of moisture in midwinter) but not up here, I don't think.

Still, shower installers put up these middle-of-the-road showers, using drywall and RedGard - for a god price. So it depends on what you're paying and who you're paying it to; the job of a professional is to give the homeowner the options that go with the job. In one case, you get a 5-year shower in the other you get 15-20yrs... 

You might start out by asking him if he used 1 or 2 coats of RedGard, if not three. Because that's what it should take to seal all the miniscule openings in a painted-on covering through which vapour can travel in our climate. If he says 'one', you're screwed. 

Just pay him for a 'temporary' shower like he gave you.


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## scar72 (May 2, 2012)

He says he used 3 coats of Redgard over the gypsum. Whether he did in fact do that is anyone's guess.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Well OK then, if he says so. But you're still at his mercy.

That membrane is the only thing that separates a "waterproofed" shower from one that'll mould and turn to mush in 5 years. The jury is still out on that particular method of waterproofing and I feel it has to do with our climate up here; I may be wrong. We seem to favour the Kerdi membrane method which is favoured by many, just as fast to put up - and fool-proof. However, since your guy didn't tell you about it, your fate was in his hands.

Guess it all depends on where you are, where the shower is etc...let's just say there are better ways that you should have been aware of - anyway, too late now. Let's hope you get many years out of that shower.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

scar72


> He says he used 3 coats of Redgard over the gypsum. Whether he did in fact do that is anyone's guess.


ccarlisle


> Well OK then, if he says so. But you're still at his mercy.


ccarlisle, I'm not sure why you replied with the above comment. 3 coats of Redgard is 3 coats too many since wallboard is not a recommended substrate for Redgard. 

Suitable Substrates

Concrete, cement mortar beds, masonry
WonderBoard®, cement backerboards
Exterior Grade Plywood For crack isolation of interior dry areas only
Exterior decks- contact Technical Services for information related to
exterior applications and the use of pressure treated wood decks
Lightweight concrete
Gypsum-based cement toppings

Jaz


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