# Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable



## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

I primed my newly plastered interior walls by spraying on Kilz 2 latex primer and now all the finish latex paint is easily nicked, pulls away from the wall even when removing gentle adhesive tape. It also peels easily like sunburned skin and nicks with the slightest bump from furniture, etc. Is this because I sprayed on the primer? Is it the type of primer itself? Is there a remedy? I have used the finish paints (various brands) in other areas of my home without having this problem. There is appx 1,000 sq. feet of wall space that I'm dealing with here. Any help solving this problem would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks,
Dorothyolive


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Raw plaster as a rule does not like latex primer. How long ago was it plastered ? Plaster really should cure for atleast 30 days and depending on what kind it is it could be up to 90 days. If it was not properly cured, then yes, it can peel up. Some plasters will do ok with Latex Primer, but it should be watered down for penetration which it is always just a safer bet to prime it with oil based primer. Also spraying does run the risk especially with plaster of having the primer or paint just sit on the surface and not penetrate like it would with a brush and roller. Most new construction painters will like to either back-roll sprayed areas or just roll it to begin with.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

Actual plaster?
(some people call drywall/joint-compound "plaster")

True, actual plaster should be cured before attempting to prime
Once cured, latex primers generally work fine

However, latex Kilz is one of the worst products ever to bear the words "primer" on it's can
It is a stain hider (sealer), not a primer at all really, and an extremely poor stain hider at that
It's an even worse primer than stain sealer

Most real paint stores I know of refuse to carry the product as the failure rate is huge

The fix is the scrape and sand any loosely adhering finish/"primer", seal with a specialty penetrating primer (like Zinsser's Gardz), and top coat with a premium quality paint (two coats)


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

*Thank You!*

Looks like I have a long job ahead of me. Thank you for the advice on the primer...Some I had talked to previous to priming had told me of the issues associated with Kilz primers but I thought that Kilz 2 was a different, safer alternative. If the paint peels off very easily do I have to sand/scrape the original primer or is there a product I can use to soften or dissolve the primer without damaging the plaster (this is real plaster...not joint compound). I beileve that there was a sufficient amount of curing time for the plaster: Appx. one month. 

Thank you again, the advice is appreciated.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

That was plenty of cure time
The issue is the Kilz2, which is the problem Kilz
(original Kilz oil-based stain sealer is actually quite good)

As the issue is the primer, it is best if you can remove any and all of the poorly adhering product

You should use Zinsser's Gardz to seal any remaining paint/primer
Then do any repairs/skim coating if needed
Then re-prime repair areas
The you should be good for 2 coats quality paint


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

So there is no magical product to make the problem just go away? 

Would it be wise to use A product like "Peel Away 6" to remove the paint and primer? If so, after rinsing should i let the plaster cure again?


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

No

No

Sorry, the magical solution is some elbow grease
(honestly the peel away and liquid sanders and such require more work then most people think)


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks everyone for the help. I have started the "old fashioned elbow grease" removal of the paint and primer. It is coming off quite easily (together). Some of the "sheets" I'm pulling off are 1'x1' or even larger. One room at a time I guess. This whole disaster is quite costly, in time, money and mess. Oh well, you live and you learn. 

Again Thank you!!
Dorothyolive


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Raw plaster as a rule does not like latex primer. How long ago was it plastered ? Plaster really should cure for atleast 30 days and depending on what kind it is it could be up to 90 days. If it was not properly cured, then yes, it can peel up. Some plasters will do ok with Latex Primer, but it should be watered down for penetration which it is always just a safer bet to prime it with oil based primer. Also spraying does run the risk especially with plaster of having the primer or paint just sit on the surface and not penetrate like it would with a brush and roller. Most new construction painters will like to either back-roll sprayed areas or just roll it to begin with.


Hi,
I have completely removed the sheets of paint/primer from one entire room and after cleaning the dust residue from it, have tested the plaster surfaces with various brands of primer, primer/paint, and paint alone (all latex based) combinations. It seems as though the plaster surface itself may be the major problem and the inability of latex based products to adhere firmly. I want to do the prep properly so that the peeling/bubbling paint problem doesn't recur. Do you think I should use an oil based primer? I tested with an enamel (latex) undercoat but that just pulled away from the wall too. I see alcyd (?) products and shellac based (zinsser) products, oil based, etc. ???? I went to my local paint store and it seems everyone has a different opinion. Maybe you know of something that is made specifically for conditioning the plaster itself before I prime? I really need help with this. And who ever thought painting walls was mindless work should be in my shoes now!
I'd appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks,
DorothyOlive


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hello Dorothy. This is the stuff I would use. 

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=12

If you want to do a test spot, get yourself a can of the spray version, usually less than $5 and a cheap throw-away brush. It is the exact same stuff that is in the gallon. Spray a good 12"x12" section and then use the brush to to both work it in like you were using it out of the gallon can and also incase you get any runs. If that works well, keep the can onhand for any other jobs that may pop up and go back and get a gallon of the stuff. It may be labeled "All-Prime" but it is the same stuff. The stuff really does dry quick and you may be able to topcoat the same day. The stuff will be a little stinky untill you get the topcoat on, but it not near as bad as some other oil primers out there like Kilz. BTW, after you get the oil primer on there, you can topcoat with anything you want. It will stick.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I would advise a respirator when using

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=12


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## joewho (Nov 1, 2006)

You may still be able to use a latex primer. You'll want something that bonds. Not an underbody or undercoat.

As someone mentioned above, thin the primer. Don't worry about coverage, you really need a very thin first coat to soak into the plaster. Once you get the first thin coat to stick, subsequent coats will perform as you expect.

Another suggestion is to check the ph balance before you do anything.
If the plaster hasn't cured to the proper ph, nothing will stick.


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## sirwired (Jun 22, 2007)

Ordinarily, water-base bonding primers such as SW PrepRite Pro Block Latex work quite well, but since you have had so much trouble, I would instead use an alkyd-base bonding (or stain-blocking) primer. I don' think a shellac-based primer such as BIN is necessary here.

Go to an actual paint store (as opposed to Big Box that happens to have a paint counter), tell them what problems you are having, and they should be able suggest a product that will work.

FYI, for the application of non-water-base primers indoors, a respirator is STRONGLY suggested. Not a dinky little dust mask, but an actual cartridge respirator.

SirWired


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi Everyone :O) !!
Thank you all for the advise :O) By the way, how do I test the Ph of the plaster? I have never heard of this, but I am certainly questioning if the plaster is the actual root of the problem. I brought a "sheet" of the paint/primer that I had peeled off of the wall to my small "real" paint store. The gentleman who was helping me was puzzled when I showed him the large "sheet". He commented that he'd never seen anything like it. He asked to keep it so he could discuss it with some other folks. He took my name and number. I hope he comes back with a solution that agrees with the opinions here. Thinning the primer sounds almost logical, that's if the plaster is ok. To what ratio would I thin it. The spray test also sounds like a good idea. I did mention alkyd to the man at the paint store and he believed that because of it's quick drying time, it most likely would crackle (?) on the chalky surface.
I'm going to do this right if it kills me :huh:. I should have already gotten a gas mask . I may already have suffered irreparable brain damage.
Thans again everyone. I'll do some more testing and let you know the outcome.
DorothyOlive


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

dorothyolive said:


> ...The gentleman who was helping me was puzzled when I showed him the large "sheet". He commented that he'd never seen anything like it.


He's new
...or at least "just a salesperson"
To those that have been in the repaint biz for a while, the words "Kilz2" and what you describe, are (unfortunately) common


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

slickshift said:


> He's new
> ...or at least "just a salesperson"
> To those that have been in the repaint biz for a while, the words "Kilz2" and what you describe, are (unfortunately) common


Hi Slick,
I'm pretty certain that he's been with this store forever... or at least as long as I have been in town (close to 20 years). He seems to take his business quite seriously. The sample "sheet" I showed him was probably 18" X 12". Most people who have seen how the walls are peeling are astonished and dumbfounded. He was very busy at the time though. Maybe that is why he chose to handle the problem later and call me with his opinion.
 DorothyOlive


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## joewho (Nov 1, 2006)

This sometimes happens on regular drywall compound also.

There may be excessive dust or the material pulls the moisture out so quickly that the paint/primer lays on top, not adhering to the material.

A few options to try: Wet a section of the wall and then immediatly prime that area. Let it dry and see how well it sticks. Use a thin coat.

You could just thin the primer or use a primer that is already very thin. The idea is to saturate the plaster with moisture the first time around. I think regular pva primer thinned 10% is a good place to start. You can experiment with the kilz2, but I wouldn't trust it.

You could go to the local hardware store or call your plaster man to find out about a ph test kit. If you can't get any primer to stick to the plaster, then follow up on the alkalinity level.

You could just get an alkali resistant primer, your paint dealer should know about it.

I suggest starting with a damp wall and testing with water based primer.

Sounds like you are committed to this, so I'm thinking you should learn how to do it with water based products, rather than thinking you'll have to use oil at all times.


Paint takes time to cure. It dries quicklyl, but takes at least 30 days to cure. So, if you paint, wait a while before doing a scratch test.


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## Bubbagump (Apr 10, 2008)

Sounds like a moisture problem.


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

*to joewho and bubbagump re: moisture*

Hi Folks, Sounds like joewho and bubbagump might be on to something with the moisture. I'll give the damp wall/thin water based primer test a try.(thanks but no thanks to the suggestion to retry the Kilz2) I was just on my way out and decided to log on to recheck the type of oil based primer that was suggested above but if I can avoid the fumes I'll try other options. I feel a bit overwhelmed at this point. You know when you are on a mission and something like this impedes your progress it's difficult to find the oomph to continue. Everything looked SO good not a month or so ago... who knows WHAT LIES BENEATH dm,dm, dm, dm... the SAGA continues
Bubbagump, may I have shrimp with that? .
I'll let you all know if I make any progress. If any of my mistakes/tests/progress help prevent someone else from dealing with the same thing, I suppose it will be worth it.
Thanks for all the help!!
DorothyOlive


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

slickshift said:


> He's new
> ...or at least "just a salesperson"
> To those that have been in the repaint biz for a while, the words "Kilz2" and what you describe, are (unfortunately) common


Hi Slickshift, I asked him how long he's been in the business. He smiled and said "53 years, but I rather like being called 'new'. " He actually showed the "sample" to many other professionals and they all reacted the same way. He recommended I try a product called STIX manufactured by Insl-x Products Corp. It's a Waterborne Bonding Primer - urethane Acrylic.
I'm going to try it out today on an area that I'm certain (through other testing) has given me much difficulty with adhesion.
I'll post the results :O). I really hope THIS works. He agrees with the "bad batch of plaster" theory and said if this product doesn't work then I should check the batch/lot # of the plaster. I still have some bags left that I can get those #s from. He said to look it up to see if there have been other cases like mine.
DorothyOlive


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ugg, well good luck with that, but there have countless stories on the net about latex paint no sticking to new plaster.


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## Chazbe (Jul 19, 2007)

The Sherwin Williams Prep Rite Pro Block primer earlier gave you the wrong product for new plaster. You need the Loxon Masonry Primer or just the regular Prep Right Masonry primer. These primers will even out the PH level to a good point for the topcoat to bond to. The Pro Block is a great product just not the one to use in this case. BTW we sell boat loads of the masonry primer to new construction painters who paint over 1 week old plaster with no ill effects. Not the ideal situation but it works.
Chuck


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi Chazbe (Chuck),
Right now I have the STIX on one test area and BM Aura on one and thinned primer on another. I haven't applied a coat of paint yet due to the moisture in the air (it's raining outside). I don't want to jeopardize the test in any way. I applied it on Saturday and wanted to apply the paint today (Monday) but... ! If these tests fail and I find that the plaster batch is okay, I haven't checked that yet, then I'll test all these suggestions until I find a solution before I go ahead and redo ALL of my walls.
Thank you for your suggestion, it is very much appreciated.
DorothyOlive


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## RolandOG (May 23, 2008)

Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.

When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.

BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

RolandOG said:


> Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.
> 
> When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.
> 
> BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?


Well you won't find many pro painters in here that will recommed you put anything Behr on any surface. I have used both thier interior and exterior and liked neither. The interior stuff sagged, and by sagged I mean it would actually almost run where the the bottom roll marks met the cut in. It was not just a one time thing in one spot that I cold attribute to being put on too thick. I had to babysit the whole room for over an hour constantly going back over the spots where it was sagging. This was a fresly shaken can of a custom color so I couldn't blame it on the can sitting forever on a shelf. The covereage was moderate but no where near what a quality paint would have been from Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. The exterior paint I used met will equal dissapointment. I was basicly full priming the areas with white oil based primer since I was scraping a lot of the old paint of to begin with and the Behr just didn't cover. Even the spots I gave 2 coats was streaky. Both the interior and the exterior paints were the Premium Plus.

I would HIGHLY recommend you get a better primer for a first coat on fresh plaster. As far as curing times and what you can use for a primer, that really all depends on the type of plaster being used.


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## RolandOG (May 23, 2008)

The bag said, I believe, USG Diamond Veneer Finish. That's all I know about what was used.

I understand Behr isn't what the pros use, but as I said, I've had good results with it. If I stuck with Behr for the color, but switched primers, what would you recommend?


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

*RolandOG re plaster*

I just checked my bags of plaster and mine is the same as yours. Diamond Finish plaster is highly alkaline w/ a pH of 13+. I have learned that PVA based primers SHOULD NOT be used over plaster of any kind. PVA tends to combine w/ or dissolve in water and thus is highly susceptible to swelling when wetted and shrinking when re-dried. Use an alkali resistant primers and paints only. Use only high quality acrylic latex, high-grade vinyl acrylic latex or alkyd paint. Avoid paint dilution which ofter results in sheen variation. Use alkali resistant epoxy-based finish systems over lime containing finish plasters. Be certain, if you sand any areas prior to primer application, that all dust is removed with a damp cloth. Any dust will cause adhesion problems. Apply with a roller. If you spray-apply be certain to back-roll to work the coating into the substrate or underlying coat. If there is moisture in the air allow for extra drying time. I'll get back to you about the appropriate drying time of the plaster and how to tell if it is definitely dry. Don't rush things. You may end up with all sorts of trouble. As for the Behr (sorry about the spelling?) Personally, I detested it in every way. It was difficult to apply and the finish sheen has variations. If you can return it, do so and go to a "paint" store for your paint. It's worth the extra money for good quality paint.:wink:
DorothyOlive


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## dorothyolive (Sep 28, 2008)

*plaster drying times*



RolandOG said:


> Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.
> 
> When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.
> 
> BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?


Hi,
Ideal drying conditions for this plaster are 77 degrees F and 50% humidity. If the plaster is not dry completely the paint bonding process will be greatly reduced. You can test to see if the plaster is fully dried by taping a one square foot sheet of clear polyethylene plastic film to the wall. Wait 24 hours. If the plaster is still wet you'll see beads or droplets on the underside of the film. Generally, under the "ideal" drying conditions this plaster will dry in 24 hours. You'll need to apply 1 coat of alkali-resistant primer/sealer followed by 2 separate coats of topcoat. Avoid applying the paint too thickly and let it dry thoroughly in between coats.
Good luck and remember to eliminate any dust with a damp cloth before priming.
DorothyOlive


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

RolandOG said:


> BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?





dorothyolive said:


> I have learned that PVA based primers SHOULD NOT be used over plaster of any kind.


The Behr product is a PVA type primer
The regret factor is high on this one


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## RolandOG (May 23, 2008)

Thanks for the additional info, and I hope you don't mind me posting in your thread. I figured with related questions it made more sense than starting a new thread.

Anyway, I just got back from my local Sherwin Williams store and the Behr paint will be going back to HD. The guy there suggests using SW PrepRite Masonry Primer unless I'm willing to wait for 30 days to use a latex one. At the moment I plan on waiting a minimum of 2 weeks. If it's dry then I'll use the masonry primer. Does this seem like the right approach? Was the guy right about the masonry primer?


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