# 8" deck footings too small for code



## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Dig down a few feet. Install a 12" Sonotube over 8" and pour concrete. If the posts are installed, split the Sonotube to install.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

Would that be up to code? I'd imagine the outside added concrete would just immediately crack within a few months, because they're not one piece. 

It'd probably sneak by if the inspector didn't already see it. But he already said I can't add concrete, and needs to inspect holes again if I dig.

I was leaning towards new posts next to the old, but it's still a major pain to dig in rocky soil, with all the framing already in place (12" joist spacing)


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Your right, new concretes not going to bond to the old and would be a waste of time.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

What if I make the additional concrete 16 inches around? That would give me a 4 inch concrete ring around the original, instead of a 2 inch ring that would crumble.

It'd float independent of the main footing, but would it add the inward support needed? 

Thinking that, with a 8" galvanized steel clamp between for additional shear support.


----------



## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Last time I had an isuue like this I went to a structural engineers office.Showed him the plans which he stamped in a heart beat .Gave him a hundred and left.My issue was more involved than yours but still would be well worth the money.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

Looks like all the structural engineers here want $500 minimum, and push $750 for a redesign.

I'm really pissed the inspectors pulled this on me. They wouldn't tell me the code when I asked originally, so I proposed 8" footings on my plan as a starting point. They signed off on that 3 times, and now share the actual state building code. They just say "Yeah, we shouldn't have approved that. It needs to be redone."

It would have been 0 extra work to do the wider footings, had they told me to before there was a two level octagon deck above it.


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Since it was approved, you could take it to the appeals board. Success there varies, but it was their mistake as well. Be sure to mention the rocky soil as it may help them bend the rules, rocky soil can hold more weight.

How deep is that 8" poured footing and where are you?

Bud


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm in northern NJ.

Soil shouldn't be the issue. I mushroomed the bottom out 4 inches wider under the frost line, 6 inches where the soul was softer. All the bases are 16- 20 inches. I calculated the psf ratings for every post as proof, and they were 3x what was needed.

They're only concerned about the top of the footing, where the post connects. They want 12 inches, 4" edge to post, in case the edges crumble.


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Did you embed the posts in the concrete or did you put brackets on top of the concrete to attach the posts? If the posts are on top of the piers with brackets it shouldn't be a problem at all. If they truly are embedded in the concrete (which isn't recommended) they are going to be quite simple to breaking out of the concrete with any movement.

If you pour concrete around the existing footings you could put some rebar rings in that concrete to prevent separation of the 2 pieces of concrete. The rebar would provide considerable additional strength.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

I have it on top with a simpson connector, to prevent rotting and allow periodic replacement. Literally everything is overengineered except the footings, because I clarified them in the original plans and didn't want to stray...

If you guys think he will pass a wider cement ring around that, I can give that a go. I was thinking 16" diameter, to make the ring 4" wide, then maybe 16" deep for the weight to spread downward at a 45 degree angle. 

Think a steel clamp around the original post to hold it tightly together is a good idea? Then cement around that.

If that doesn't pass, I give up. Not much more I can do, painted into a corner. All the engineers here want $750 just to look at my plan.


----------



## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

paniller said:


> He is failing them for shear strength, as the posts are only 2 inches from the edges of the concrete.
> 
> the posts are only 10" high and it may pass shear load specs as is


ask if you can put in a larger post. or why not move the post over ?


this is a very low deck ?

pics ?


----------



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Ask if additional pier/post will work. He is a bit uncommon to fail mis-centered post. I've done the same on a 12" pier and did get a comment, but passed. NJ also. Are all posts mis centered? Because of this kind of problem as well as soil problems, I always use 12" pier if anything is high enough to need railing.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

picture should be a thousand words. Inspector only seems concerned about the upper level (for now, anyway)


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

One of the footings. 8" post, 2x10 beams. 2x8" joists. Around 28.5" total final height


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

The posts aren't miscentered. The code just calls for 12" concrete for 4x4 posts, to allow 4" of cement edge around the post.

Technically, the deck doesn't even need a railing, it is below 30 inches.


----------



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

The new inspector may want to start his career with a new slate. Not much you can do.
But he may want the numbers, not the exacting quality.:smile:
You could modify (bigger adjustment hole with better washers) the post base and move it closer to center and you could move the post as well in relation to the beam. Inch or two out of the span specs will not matter here. The post does not have to sit exact center of the base, etc, and I think combination of these two adjustments could get you out of this problem.


----------



## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

that will be a nice looking deck right there.

being that low, idk how that asshat finds issue. apply for a variance and tell them what you told us. if that doesn't work, talk to your alderman.


----------



## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

paniller said:


> Technically, the deck doesn't even need a railing, it is below 30 inches.


 Need to check local codes --- some places use 24" as max without railing.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

I could definitely dig and move the posts. The posts are 18" from the beam ends so they're less visible. So I can move them in, or outside the existing posts.

The soil is just a nightmare and rocky for the top 24 inches. It was hard enough digging on open ground, let alone with a beam and 12" joist spacing blocking the way.

I'm leaning towards a 6" concrete ring with the rebar ring inside, around the existing post. Maybe add a third post in the center of each beam that is a true 12" post. Depth requires for the concrete addition? I'd assume below the frost line again, but was hoping just 12" because it can float a bit.


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm actually an engineer, but electrical and never bothered to get certified (more of a civil/mechanical thing). I just thought to ask around work, and it turns out one of our mechanical engineers is certified.

He stamped off on everything in 5 minutes. He even said not to bother reinforcing the footings, as it was a small deck with very little load. Signed off as is, woth no concerns.

His only recommendation was adding an extra post on the outside edge when people would congregate around the railing. Easy enough, easy access. I'll add that after inspection, not about to open a can of worms resubmitting and reopening a case on the footings.

I'm hand him a thank you card with $50 or $100 in it. Saved me from a nightmare.


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for getting back to us, glad to hear that everything worked out!


----------



## paniller (Apr 14, 2016)

Not out of the water yet. His license is NY and we're in NJ...


----------

