# Crankshaft and camshaft pointers



## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

People,

1987 Sunbird GT non turbo:

Ive just made a discovery, after chasing for 17 years why my engine runs rough. Chasing vacuum leaks, checking sensors, changing elec components, etc. While replacing my water pump (a real nighmare on my car), I noticed the crank "notch" is not at the 6 0clock position!! Sheeeesh!

Yes, the camshaft sprocket is at 12 oclock, but when it is the crank is not. It happens to be at 7 oclock! No wonder engine runs rough- for 17 years. 

So, asking here, is it simple to just turn the crank backwards to 6 oclock? Timing belt is off, of course.

Not sure how this happened , if it was me or a mech I was using years ago, who changed my timing belt. No matter now. 

Also, your opinions- could this really make a difference which is noticeable?

Thanks, people.


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

If the timing belt is stretched, replace it. However, don't he surprised if there is no improvement.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I would replace it while you are there and after you have tension on it rotate the engine a few times and check the marks. All you need is a little slack left in the wrong place to be out one tooth when you tension it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> People,
> 
> 1987 Sunbird GT non turbo:
> 
> ...


No never turn the crank backward, even a few degrees.

You can damage the oil pump drive, or the distributor drive, or maybe cause some thing internally to lockup.

Always turn the crankshaft the direction that it was designed for. 

Since the timing belt is off the valves are out of the system temporarily, and should not interfere when any of the pistons reach TDC, during this one revolution.

Pull the spark plugs to alleviate any compression, and you should be able to turn it by hand, or a ratchet. 


ED


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> No never turn the crank backward, even a few degrees.
> 
> You can damage the oil pump drive, or the distributor drive, or maybe cause some thing internally to lockup.
> 
> Always turn the crankshaft the direction that it was designed for.


BULLCRAP! You will not damage anything by manually turning the crank backward. :sad:



papereater said:


> People,
> Yes, the camshaft sprocket is at 12 oclock, but when it is the crank is not. It happens to be at 7 oclock! No wonder engine runs rough- for 17 years.


Before you do anything, you need to understand that the cam shaft and crank shaft rotate at different rates. That's the purpose of the cam chain and gears. The crank turns 2:1 with the cam. 

Line up the timing dots on the two cam gears.

*When properly set, both dots on both gears should be pointing at one another. It is not necessarily 12/6-o'clock unless the cam is directly above the crank.* If the two gears are slanted to one another, then the 12/6 o'clock positions won't be lined up. (i.e. consider something like a slant-6. It's not vertical, but the angle from crank to cam.)


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> No never turn the crank backward, even a few degrees.
> 
> You can damage the oil pump drive, or the distributor drive, or maybe cause some thing internally to lockup.
> 
> ...


 I think GM said to turn the engine clockwise 3 or 4 times after setting the belt and checking it. I don't know if they clarified where you should be standing.


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## w0j0 (Dec 29, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> Since the timing belt is off the valves are out of the system temporarily, and should not interfere when any of the pistons reach TDC, during this one revolution.


This is bad advice. 
With the belt off, the valves are in whatever position they were last left--up, down, and partial. Assuming an interference engine, this allows the best opportunity for a piston to valve collision. The only way to prevent contact on an interference engine when turning the crank independent of the cam is to loosen the cam journal caps(overhead cam) or loosen the rockers. By doing this, you remove the cam from the equation and allow all valves to be up, in their seated position. You are then completely free to turn the crank either way to your heart's content.
Mind you, none of that is necessary if your timing is already close and you're just nudging the crank one way or the other.

Sent from my SM-J810Y using Tapatalk


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> BULLCRAP! You will not damage anything by manually turning the crank backward. :sad:


I disagree, You do it your way, I will do it my way, and we will see who has to get more repairs done, Not me.

Have a nice day.

ED


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

I never said what YOU should do.....but that's exactly what you did to the OP.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Wow, somuch good info, and to consider. Thanks, people. Let me look at the set up and get back with feedback to address your replies........


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

OK, for starters, here is a youtube for a sunbird of my generation, showing at 2:07 to about 2:20 minutes into the film, the crankshaft U shaped pointer, facing exactly DOWN at the mark on the engine below it. I mean why would the factory have machined in these marks? Also, please note just before that where he shows the camshaft sprocket, pointing at 12:00, just for the heck of it.....


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

Wow! I can't believe they ran the water pump off the timing belt instead of the serpentine belt. No wonder your timing was off....someone probably replaced the water pump years ago and didn't get the belt back on correctly.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> Wow! I can't believe they ran the water pump off the timing belt instead of the serpentine belt. No wonder your timing was off....someone probably replaced the water pump years ago and didn't get the belt back on correctly.


Thats why the water ppump replacement on this car is a nightmare. Yes, the timing belt HAS to run on the water pump. AND, to make matters worse, if the belt slackens up a bity in time, you have to accesss the water pump AGAIN to crack it, and turn it on a cam type lobe, to tighten the timing belt again. 

Anyway, the crank mark has to be lined up at 6:00, right?


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I think the 92 had a different engine.

I'm guessing that your engine is the 2.0L 96 hp LT2 engine, last used in the Sunbird in 1991. 

From 92 to 94, the Sunbird used a 2.0L 110hp LE4 engine in place of the LT2.

The timing marks are unlikely to be the same.

The first thing you need to do is get a positive ID on your engine.
Then you can find the cam timing instructions.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oso954 said:


> I think the 92 had a different engine.
> 
> I'm guessing that your engine is the 2.0L 96 hp LT2 engine, last used in the Sunbird in 1991.
> 
> ...


OK, Oso, you may be right. Would my serial # help? it is a 2.0L. OHC. But my engine has the SAME marks as the one in the video. Just that the U shaped mark now is at 7:00. Why would GM make same marks intended for my engine's U mark to be at 7:00?

Meanwhile, my Haynes mentions nothing about that. Nothing at all, as far as I can see....


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

According to the Autozone procedure,
https://www.autozone.com/repairguides/GM-Cavalier-Sunbird-Skyhawk-Firenza-1982-1994/ENGINE-MECHANICAL/Timing-Belt/_/P-0900c1528003b9d1

For a new belt installation, your camshaft mark aligns with a mark on the rear timing belt cover.
Meanwhile the crankshaft pulley mark is supposed to align with 10 btdc on the timing indicator scale.

Also note the warning
Do not turn the camshaft. Use only the crankshaft nut to turn. Turning the nut on the camshaft directly can damage the camshaft bearings.

You may want to check additional sources.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oso954 said:


> According to the Autozone procedure,
> https://www.autozone.com/repairguides/GM-Cavalier-Sunbird-Skyhawk-Firenza-1982-1994/ENGINE-MECHANICAL/Timing-Belt/_/P-0900c1528003b9d1
> 
> For a new belt installation, your camshaft mark aligns with a mark on the rear timing belt cover.
> ...


Thanks, Os, I have seen this before, and it is a handy guide/procedure. But here's where we're at- my car does not have a timing mark indicator. Yes, it is ABSENT. Maybe another victim of past mechanics years ago before I learned/started to take care of my own car. So, we have no such indicator mark (where normally one would use to time the car to 10 deg BTDC).

So, what does one do/decide? The fact that that notch (mark) on crank pulley would be 10 deg BTDC means the notch has to be at about say, 11:30 position, and currently, as I removed the pulley, being careful not to move the crank, that notch was at about 12:30, PAST THE 12:00 position. So, if one respects the U shaped indentation on the video to be at 6:00 that would move the notch on pullet COUNTERCLOCKWISE to BTDC. 

You see how Im thinking the crank was molested years ago? This is the opportunity to correct it. I still dont understand why GM would have cut such a notch in the crank if it should not be lined up with similar notch in bottom of engine (shown in video) 

And yes, I never rotate camshaft from nut- i dont even move it- no need to. That always remains lined up with pointer on plastic rear timing belt cover. 

Wow- hope I didnt confuse anybody. I appreciate your help as I am otherwise alone in this ordeal of a molested car trying to recuperate.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

You need to look around for it.

You seem to think that it should be at 12 o’clock. Timing marks/indicator scales are often moved around on engines. If The Mfg wants the thing at 45 degrees to make it easy to hit with a timing light, the marks are put there. 10 btdc would be at 35 or 55 degrees, depending on engine rotation.

I remember some vehicles (not which ones) that had timing marks at 6 o’clock, you had to crawl under them to check timing.

I’d be looking down around the 7 o’clock area where you say the Mark is currently. I’d continue looking around over towards the 5 o’clock position. Clean things up well and use a bright light.

I also see a slot or notch in that timing belt cover in about the 6 o’clock position below the crank. (See figure 9,autozone) That might be used with an indication scale on the crankshaft pulley (not sprocket).
I’m also starting to believe that these marks are for crankshaft/camshaft timing only, not setting ignition timing. If I am correct, they would not necessarily be visible with the front cover on. 

I saw a reference to Direct Ignition System (DIS) or Electronic Ignition (EI) being used between 87 and 92. Do you know which one you have ?
They fire off a crank position sensor signal and input from the ECM.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Don't confuse external timing marks used to time the spark with the 2 dots on the gears that time the cam to the crank. They are 2 different things.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

If I owned that 32 year old limited production car, I'd buy this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Pontiac-Sunbird-GM-Factory-Service-Shop-Repair-Manual-OEM/163446668311?hash=item260e2e3c17:g:8YoAAOSw4bhcHvz3

It's also a great item to have to go with the vehicle, if you decide to sell it at some point.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oso954 said:


> You need to look around for it.
> 
> You seem to think that it should be at 12 o’clock. Timing marks/indicator scales are often moved around on engines. If The Mfg wants the thing at 45 degrees to make it easy to hit with a timing light, the marks are put there. 10 btdc would be at 35 or 55 degrees, depending on engine rotation.
> 
> ...


It is not DIS, but HEI (high energy ignition). Has a dist cap.rotor. 

There is no timing scale anywhere. I would have seen it removing the water pump as one is all over inside there. It might have been removed as it is attached with a bolt, based on past diagrams Ive seen. Oh well.

The cam sprocket has to be set at 12:00. Thats where the pointer is on plastic cover. Thats not so confusing. Its the crank. Anyway, Os, let me study some more as you suggested that AZ diagram, as well as my manual. I dont want to jump to conclusions, as you advise. Thanks for all your patience. 

Will get back to your soon.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

Osso and Neal, He *is *talking about crank to cam timing, not ignition timing.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

papereater said:


> Anyway, the crank mark has to be lined up at 6:00, right?


Get in there with a rag and some solvent and try to clean things up. There must be a timing mark that you can't see. But barring that, yeah, I'd say 6 o'clock.


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## w0j0 (Dec 29, 2017)

On some engines, you can find TDC by pulling the #1 spark plug and dropping a probe(best is attached to a dial indicator) into the cylinder to measure the height of the piston as you rotate the crank cw/ccw. Not that the tolerance of the system justifies it but best practice is to overshoot TDC while turning ccw and then sneak back up on it while turning cw. By doing so, it takes up the backlash in the bearings, not that such a small error will outweigh the angular misalignment caused by tensioning the timing belt...

Sent from my SM-J810Y using Tapatalk


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Oso954 said:


> If I owned that 32 year old limited production car, I'd buy this.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Pontiac-Sunbird-GM-Factory-Service-Shop-Repair-Manual-OEM/163446668311?hash=item260e2e3c17:g:8YoAAOSw4bhcHvz3
> 
> It's also a great item to have to go with the vehicle, if you decide to sell it at some point.


And at that price, a real steal, considering the heck that you are experiencing at this time. 

And as with value, the car will be worth more, when it has an included service factory manual.

If you ever decide to sell it to a collector.

I have seen some that required the two dots on the cam and crank gear, be pointed at each other, others on opposite sides from each other. 

ED


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

Disconnect the negative battery cable.
Remove the serpentine belt. Unfasten the belt tensioner bolt, the tensioner arm will swing down, then remove the tensioner.
Either unsnap (upper first) or unfasten the cover bolts and nuts, then remove the cover.


​

On vehicles through 1988, unsnap the top then the bottom of the timing belt cover, then ...
Click to Enlarge ​... remove the timing belt cover - 1988 2.0L (VIN K) Sunbird shown
Click to Enlarge ​Exploded view of the timing belt cover and related components - 1989 2.0L OHC engine shown
Click to Enlarge*To install:*

Install the cover by snapping it in place, or secure with the retaining bolts and nut. Tighten to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm).
Place the serpentine belt tensioner into position, then tighten the retaining bolt to 40 ft. lbs. (54 Nm). Install the serpentine belt.
Connect the negative battery cable.:vs_cool:


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

When installing the timing belt, the crankshaft pulley should line up at the 10 BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) mark on the indicator, not at TDC. Remove the timing cover and inspect the timing marks. Correct if necessary. After installation, rotate crank clockwise for 2 revolutions and then line up the timing marks. If they line up, your done. If not, do reinstall.:vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Just got home from work. Time for fun.

So, yeah, I am concerned at this time with JUST cam/crank timing. And, to recap, I am concerned only with the setting of the crank which has a notch milled in it (U shaped) and acording to that video it has to match/line up with the same U shaped notch right below it, or on the engine itself. 

I know you guys are trying to implore me to look closely for that timing scale but there is none. completely gone, at the spot that was dedicated for it. 

So, again, I present the video and.......






please view around 2:05-2:20 which shows the whiteouted notched BOTH on crank and engine (below). My car has the same notches. Right above the oil pan. 

But , as I mentioned, when I removed the timing belt that notch on crank was at past the bottom (6:00) position. around say, 7:00. And the notch on the crank PULLEY would have been past the 10 deg BTDC. Maybe around 12:00. Thats why Im thinking if I move crank notch back to bottom, the pulley notch will go back to where it should be. 

Sorry for the repetition, people. I am not trying to print out a 360 deg protractor, and level it up against the crank, then mark off 10 deg. What the heck.

Meanwhile, water pump is on order........no hurry.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oh- havent studied my shop manual yet- maybe tonight after dark, after eating some dinner with some vegetables.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> And at that price, a real steal, considering the heck that you are experiencing at this time.
> 
> And as with value, the car will be worth more, when it has an included service factory manual.
> 
> ...


Wow- I paid way more for that years ago.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

This is the actual photo of my car- see the 2 marks (I put whiteout on them). They dont line up, as I explained. And something tells me they should. Also, I studied for about 1/2 hr my shop manual and it mentions absolutely nothing about this, not does it have any decent pictured where one could view. 

Anyway, comments appreciated.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Darn, seems there is no feature to clip/attach a photo. Sorry, people. Oh well........


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox?projector=1


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox?projector=1


The link demands that I start an account, which I will not.

There is an extensive procedure to post pictures here, posted elsewhere on here explaining the procedure.

Everything states to only turn the crank CLOCKWISE, so do not turn it backwards. 

And for future work on this car, find and replace the timing pointers that you say are missing, take the guesswork out of the work. 

A job done correct the first time stops having to do it over.

Scan your manual for what they look like, maybe buy NOS parts and get the engine back to where it should be.

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Whoops, sorry about that accidentally pasted the wrong thing from my clipboard (that link to my gmail account). I would edit the post and remove it but I can't seem to find the edit feature on that post specifically, probably because I did it on my home comp and now on my work comp. Any mods, feel free to remove otherwise I'll remove later tonight.

I meant to post a picture, which I'll dig back up and post again shortly.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> The link demands that I start an account, which I will not.
> 
> There is an extensive procedure to post pictures here, posted elsewhere on here explaining the procedure.
> 
> ...


OK, so clockwise it goes. And I agree about a job done right, especially if youre the original owner of 32 years. But, Denorg, finding that timing scale for my generation J cars (GM- cavaliers, grand ams, cimmarons, etc) probably impossible. Forget junk yards. Sugegstions welcome.

I do have a picture (posted above, actually) of what it looks like. Meanwhile, working on getting my picture up.....


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Picture attached:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Got it up finally. You can see what I meant - I white outed ( a new word??) both U shaped notches, one at 7:00 (on crank nut/sprocket gismo), and the one at 6:00 on bottom flanged portion of engine, right above the oil pan, somewhat difficult to make out from the glare. This is consistent with that video posted as well. Isnt that strange place for a notch to be sitting, people? This position is how crank was when I removed the old timing belt!


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

You do understand that when the engine shuts off, it does not always align perfectly with the timing marks?

Follow the procedure in the manual to align all the marks, before reinstalling the new belt.

Get the parts wherever you can, it might take some HARD searching, but they are out there somewhere. 

I'm thinking that you are making much ADO about this, and need to stop overthinking the remedy. 

Yes the engine is a little specific, but GM used it in several brands across the board, so there will be the timing parts available somewhere. 

Have you looked at JC Whitney, parts direct, or several other NOS specialty shops?


ED


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> I'm thinking that you are making much ADO about this, and need to stop overthinking the remedy.


That's because too many google warriors keep misinforming him. Stop giving advise on topics you know only via Google. It's pretty clear that he has timing marks on the oil pan and crank pulley. Moreover, if crank rotation is clockwise, then 10 degrees BDC sure as hell isn't at the 7 o'clock position!


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

de-nagorg said:


> You do understand that when the engine shuts off, it does not always align perfectly with the timing marks?
> 
> Follow the procedure in the manual to align all the marks, before reinstalling the new belt.
> 
> ...


Thanks as always, denorg, Of course I understand that when engine shuts off marks can align at any position. I purposefully turned cam sprocket to 12:00 BEFORE removing belt, wasnt that clear? Likewise, the crank turns respectively. But the crank is not at where it is supposed to be. And right now it is off, unless someone here disputes it with confidence. I welcome that. 

With all the help here so far I am still surprised that no fellow member has committed to either say yes, keep it at 7:00 or no, move it at 6:00. I understand it may be difficult to commit. No problem, but thats why it may be much "ado". 

I will try JC Whitneys. etc. Yes, as you say, it WILL be hard to find. These J cars are ancient history and frankly are recognised as junk GM, although it is not junk to me. But denorg, I dont think my proposed remedy is overthinking. I just hate to line up that crank wrong cuz readjusting the timing belt will be another ordeal. 

Thanks for your support and advice.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> It's pretty clear that he has timing marks on the oil pan and crank pulley.


Exactly, Brown. Crankshaft timing marks. U shaped/milled, as in picture. Dont know how much clearer I can make it.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> That's because too many google warriors keep misinforming him. Stop giving advise on topics you know only via Google. It's pretty clear that he has timing marks on the oil pan and crank pulley. Moreover, if crank rotation is clockwise, then 10 degrees BDC sure as hell isn't at the 7 o'clock position!


And you should not ASSUME things, you do know what happens when one assumes anything.

So leave the me out of it. 

I happen to have 50+ years on car repair, even spent a few years as a PRO, So I know what of I speak.

And paper, the only way to be positive is to actually do one's homework, being a teacher you do understand HOMEWORK? 

Read the tech manual and verify all your suppositions, about those u marks, most likely is the proper marks, but without it in factory print, no one in their right mind is going to say either way, and if they do, VERIFY, because they might full of it up to their BROWN EYES. 

ED


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

de-nagorg said:


> And you should not ASSUME things, you do know what happens when one assumes anything.
> 
> So leave the me out of it.
> 
> ...


Nice rant. But tell me again, Mr. Mechanic, what components on that engine are going to be damaged when you back the crank up "even a few degrees", as you said? Be specific.

Oh, and aren't you the same guy that told him it would be OK to turn his crank one revolution while the timing belt was off?

I couldn't really care less that you changed your own oil for 50 years, and spent a couple years "as a pro" mounting tires at the local gas station as a high schooler.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

OK, side note, a breather from this auto repair thread- Margret Thatcher said the most difficult position is the middle ground. Everyone here is trying to help me out, tough as it may be. So,because I both need continuous clarification and at the same time dont want to be responsible for any back /forth stressful tone/atmosphere I hope and implore that we continue in the best "spirit" (Im not religious), and proceed as fellow members best can. I need this forum.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I am a pro. Started doing this since I was 9 (1969) years old. (Thanks Dad  ) Professionally since 78. ASE Master since 82 I think? Have my own shop since 2010. I get the ones other shops can't or won't fix. I work on all cars from Mercedes to Yugo, (I haven't seen Yugos for quite sometime) Sometimes that's a curse. You can rotate the crank backward BY HAND and if it's an interference engine, it will stop. The valve and piston is now making contact. If you force it, that's when the damage occurs. I have done this with no damage, but it's by hand and gently. If it's a non-interference engine, it will not stop but will continue to rotate with no damage. Do it by the manual. After you install belt, rotate engine crank 2 revolutions and line up the timing marks. they should line up. If they don't, reinstall it again. Sometimes I have to reinstall it several times to get the marks to line up, but that's on duel cam engines. Key here is to check your work so it will be right when you put it back together with confidence.:vs_cool:


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

Brainbucket said:


> You can rotate the crank backward BY HAND and if it's an interference engine, it will stop. The valve and piston is now making contact................ If it's a non-interference engine, it will not stop but will continue to rotate with no damage.


You're discussing rotating the crank with the timing belt/chain removed. That's not what was discussed here. That's never a good idea. 

With the timing belt still in place, the valves are still going to be closed when the piston reaches the top, regardless which direction it comes from.


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## jmig7 (Jul 11, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> I disagree, You do it your way, I will do it my way, and we will see who has to get more repairs done, Not me.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> ED





Here come the ALPHA males out of the wood work, I hear the violin playing. Lets stay focused on the OP question. You have to look at the type of engine and design.
Example: On a 4 banger 1ZZFE majority produced by toyota in all of your corrollas, vibes, Matrix's you can turn the engine backwards or forwards in fact to engage the timing chain tensioner one must turn the crankshaft backwards (counterclockwise) 90 degrees before moving forward (clockwise) one revolution. There is a retain-ment hook that needs to release (rotation backwards) before forward rotation-that produces tension plunger against/engages chain. You will hear a click of engagement rotating the engine backwards ((counter clockwise))- YOU will not engage the tensioner if you ONLY move the engine clockwise- then your in trouble if you start the 1zzfe without proper tensioner engagement.
WOW!

That said one would look at the tensioner set up on how an engine is rotated per engine and not make any blanket statement either way.



More importantly the OP asks why this happened?


If you pull up your specs you probably will realize the timing chain needs to be checked or timing changed replaced after "x" amount of miles on engines: On ((metal)) timing chains its a lot longer most of the time i.e 250000/300,000 miles or MORE!! depending on how you drive and maintain on interferance engines that use TIMING BELTS (RUBBER) NOT CHAINS its 100,000 miles on some makes and models ((recommended by stealership))

For the 1987 sunbird the following engines were used:


1.8 L _L46_ OHV I4
1.8 L _LH8_ SOHC I4
1.8 L _LA5_ turbo SOHC I4
2.0 L _LQ5_ OHV I4
2.0 L _LT2_ SOHC I4
2.0 L _LT3_ turbo SOHC I4
Since you said its NOT a turbo guesing yours is 2.0 L _LQ5_ OHV I4???










If you replace the engine timing CHAIN I would also change out the tensioner assmebly.


Check this pdf out below as it shows a GM tensioning tool it does take you through the process of finding TDC and aligning the proper timing marks and then using to tool to keep those marks aligned properly when re applying tension. Amazon.com has a lot of tensioning tools for very reasonable price. ** One of the mistakes DIYERS make is applying the tensioner then losing alignment of the timing marks.

Lastly - check your cam shafts and other internal specs there might be some unnecessary wear if this has been going on for 17 years- not sure what type of oil and how often you change it ( i.e. full sythetic vs conventional). Again no data fuel trims, compression tests etc that lead you too timing.



http://https://www.otctools.com/sites/default/files/532208_revb.pdf

Majority of mechanics dont know how to look at fuel trim values, MAF, Oxy, Compression tests etc, etc how these sensors intertwine with a EFI engine: #1 A CYLINDER COMPRESSION TEST is mechanic 101 verifying timing issue or not. A rough idle is a effect of more fuel trim short term which conveys to long term. LEARN your fuel trims and you will be ahead of 90% of mechanics in this world this will lead you to the next area to test and confirm.
AIR>FUEL>SPARK>COMPRESSION>TIMING.


I say all this because you didnt provide any data (off your PCM through an OBDII tool)) and for 17 years you chased misdiagnosis, became a parts changer instead of a engine diagnotics person, and didnt evaluate any tests.


Hopefully someone reading this will go through less pain: diagnostic skills is a science and an art.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> You can rotate the crank backward BY HAND and if it's an interference engine, it will stop. The valve and piston is now making contact. If you force it, that's when the damage occurs. I have done this with no damage, but it's by hand and gently. If it's a non-interference engine, it will not stop but will continue to rotate with no damage. Do it by the manual. After you install belt, rotate engine crank 2 revolutions and line up the timing marks. they should line up. If they don't, reinstall it again. Sometimes I have to reinstall it several times to get the marks to line up, but that's on duel cam engines. Key here is to check your work so it will be right when you put it back together with confidence.:vs_cool:


So, Brain, when you mean "by hand" is that by taking your bare hand, grabbing the crank nut/sprocket assembly, and turning it a tad counterclockwise to get back to 6:00 BEFORE attaching timing belt? 

Seems like that would be a hard hard turn with bare hands/fingers. Maybe you mean with the assistance of a socket/ratchet, and gently turn back a bit "BY HAND"? 

I understand about turning engine a few times clockwise AFTER belt it on, and checking it. 

Crunch time- got the water pump today.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

jmig7 said:


> Here come the ALPHA males out of the wood work, I hear the violin playing. Lets stay focused on the OP question. You have to look at the type of engine and design.
> Example: On a 4 banger 1ZZFE majority produced by toyota in all of your corrollas, vibes, Matrix's you can turn the engine backwards or forwards in fact to engage the timing chain tensioner one must turn the crankshaft backwards (counterclockwise) 90 degrees before moving forward (clockwise) one revolution. There is a retain-ment hook that needs to release (rotation backwards) before forward rotation-that produces tension plunger against/engages chain. You will hear a click of engagement rotating the engine backwards ((counter clockwise))- YOU will not engage the tensioner if you ONLY move the engine clockwise- then your in trouble if you start the 1zzfe without proper tensioner engagement.
> WOW!
> 
> ...


Thanks. It is the SOHC above. 2.0L. I dont think it is the type that crashes into the valves, but not 100% sure. Anyway, you dont use an OBD II on this, OBD I. No codes anywhere, BTW. My car is too primitive to detect many of these symptoms. 

I have tested every sensor with voltmeter/ohmmeter. And did vacuum checks of all kinds, including my favorite- stethescope type. Compression is fine, and NO oil consumption after 210,000 miles. Dino oil or synth- doesnt matter- I have proven it. 

Also, Im not redoing the valves as I am just changing the water pump/timing belt. I did measure valve lobes/springs/camshaft tolerances in 2002 with head gasket job.

Thanks


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

papereater said:


> Also, Im not redoing the valves as I am just changing the water pump/timing belt. I did measure valve lobes/springs/camshaft tolerances in 2002 with head gasket job.


YOU did head gasket in 2002? What did you do about cam timing back then?

Take a closer look at your crank pulley (serpentine belt), and see if there is anything resembling a timing mark on it. Take a picture. If there is an ignition timing mark, as suggested in some of the procedures, it will be on the pulley that you haven't showed us. The missing timing pointer would be a steel bracket that bolts to the block just to the right of the water pump, but extends way down to where the serpentine pulley would be.


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

papereater said:


> So, Brain, when you mean "by hand" is that by taking your bare hand, grabbing the crank nut/sprocket assembly, and turning it a tad counterclockwise to get back to 6:00 BEFORE attaching timing belt?
> 
> Seems like that would be a hard hard turn with bare hands/fingers. Maybe you mean with the assistance of a socket/ratchet, and gently turn back a bit "BY HAND"?
> 
> ...



By hand meant with a wrench on the crank bolt or socket. Not saying to do it, but was saying it can be done. Now you can go back or forth a few degrees to align the marks but be careful. Hope it goes well.
:vs_cool:


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I had a crank timing pulley that wollered out the key slot but you couldn't see it until I took the pulley off. Might wanna check that.:vs_cool:


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## jmig7 (Jul 11, 2017)

papereater said:


> Thanks. It is the SOHC above. 2.0L. I dont think it is the type that crashes into the valves, but not 100% sure. Anyway, you dont use an OBD II on this, OBD I. No codes anywhere, BTW. My car is too primitive to detect many of these symptoms.
> 
> I have tested every sensor with voltmeter/ohmmeter. And did vacuum checks of all kinds, including my favorite- stethescope type. Compression is fine, and NO oil consumption after 210,000 miles. Dino oil or synth- doesnt matter- I have proven it.
> 
> ...





The point I was making about data: yes 1987 sunbird has a OBD I port that connects to your ECM (computer). You can get very very important data out of it without a trouble code (sidenote GM 2 digits-get code flashing on the dash using the assembly line lead if you dont have a OBD I scan tool- sounds like you did this). 



Im talking about data: Live data and past data and Freeze frame data. Fuel trim short term and long term data will 95% lead you in the right direction(if you know the science behind it) with or without a code. :smile:One can have a rough idle with out a MIL code- that's engine modern engineering. 



Without data your just guessing and a part changer. There are many reasonable priced OBD I and OBD II live data (bi directional) scanners out there: Bluedriver is a good start. 



i.e. looking at your fuel trims you will know: are your running lean or rich at what point/temperature/many tests can performed while in live mode. From there with live data : one you can start to test the science: what happens when I introduce air (throttle)?
A client of mine went to (3) mechanics and 1 stealership and they didnt look at the data: PROBLEM: No start/rough idle that would end up stalling. Once the NO start situation was fixed (relay). They all said things like spark plugs, vacuum leak, spark wires, alternator blah blah blah. Hooked up the scanner- looked at live data started looking at the fuel trims, testing, lead me to fuel pressure since there was rich STFT not LEAN: Looking at live data graph of fuel trims, manipulating the throttle RPMS (air) the car smoothed out then hooked up a vacuum guage to the EGR and I could manipulate the EGR- a stuck diagrapham. Once unstuck- rough idle gone Fuel trims right in line. Car fixed recommended EGR replacement- see picture below of EGR carbon deposits.



Point being if your not working with data, *live data, then its not diagnostics.

The timing may be "A" problem (previous mechanic created) but it might not be THE PROBLEM-rough idle 17 years. The modern engine regardles of OBD I or II- will adjust fuel based on problems with air and visa versa = fuel trims.


The above example of rough idle: NEVER CREATED A MONEY LIGHT= MIL code.


SIDENOTE for other DIYERS: I stress this if you do have a MIL code you have to look up what causes that MIL code: called " Conditions of code" NOT just what the code name means "title".


Cheers.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Brainbucket said:


> I had a crank timing pulley that wollered out the key slot but you couldn't see it until I took the pulley off. Might wanna check that.:vs_cool:


I too have found strange things.

Had one come in that was running, but did not perform as it should have.

Seems that the owner had bought it from a local less than reliable used car dealer. 

They had replaced the timing belt and gears, and gotten the thing off by a few degrees and instead of re-doing it correct, they had pulled the distributor and turned the rotor as close to T D C as they could get it, and timed it by ear, to nearly correct, as I said it would run, and drive, but dog out at a higher RPM, because the mechanical timing advance would stop advancing before peak performance was reached. 

Took me a full day, before I took it apart, and realigned the gears, then pulled the distributor and reinstalled it correctly, the car ran excellent afterwards. 

Is there a possibility that whoever lost the timing pointer, also did some screwball thing like this to it. 

And no I never worked in a tire store. I got fed up working in a REAL shop, the office politics was ridiculous. 

Kind of like this thread.


ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> YOU did head gasket in 2002? What did you do about cam timing back then?
> 
> Take a closer look at your crank pulley (serpentine belt), and see if there is anything resembling a timing mark on it. Take a picture. If there is an ignition timing mark, as suggested in some of the procedures, it will be on the pulley that you haven't showed us. The missing timing pointer would be a steel bracket that bolts to the block just to the right of the water pump, but extends way down to where the serpentine pulley would be.


LOL!! Yes, I did a head gasket job back then. Didnt think it mattered as I basically copied everything the way it was and didnt even know about this crank sprocket U notch. I was so dumb back then. But at leasst I knew enough not to mess with the crank once the old tining belt was removed. And so, I placed the new belt on crank as it stood. The wrong way. It either skipped a fewe notches and I didnt know about it or the mach who did my water pump in about 1995 moved the crank. Who knows. 

There is no such missing pointer /steel bracket, which would be the timing scale. Yes, I know what it looks like. I dont have one (sad face). What the heck??!! I'll never know. Factory bungle or careless mechanic.

As I said before, I will figure out about where the 10 deg BTDC is with a circle protractor, and good level, if I cant find a replacement scale from say, JC Whitney, as Denorg suggested.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Heres one:

https://www.carparts.com/details/Pr...vHM4gXi9IJ-ma0EWV0RoCjSYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

But who knows if it will even fit right, maybe it can be bent/twisted a little if necessary(?). I could just take a chance......


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

jmig7 said:


> The point I was making about data: yes 1987 sunbird has a OBD I port that connects to your ECM (computer). You can get very very important data out of it without a trouble code (sidenote GM 2 digits-get code flashing on the dash using the assembly line lead if you dont have a OBD I scan tool- sounds like you did this).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes, Jmig, that all sounds way too high tech for me. Fuel trim? Freeze data? I know science, but not "the science behind it". This all might be useful to me at a later point if I study all this (maybe with your assistance(?). But right now I will just focus on timing marks/scale set up. Hey, lets see if my old car will start after that. Then we can go into fuel trim analysis, if I can even understand it. Thanks for all your contribution and detailed imput.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

papereater said:


> As I said before, I will figure out about where the 10 deg BTDC is with a circle protractor, and good level, if I cant find a replacement scale from say, JC Whitney, as Denorg suggested.


The only reason I asked about the ignition timing indicator was to eliminate it as a possibility....just to make sure you weren't overlooking something.

Right now, it would appear that your cam timing is about 15 degrees after-TDC. So before you try to set this to 10-BDC, first try it at 0-TDC. 

My reasoning is that if there is going to be a collision, it would be if you set the timing too early, as opposed to too late. And jumping from +15 to a -10 is pretty drastic (25 degrees total).

So set your timing based on the mark on the pan (its actually the oil pump), and then carefully turn the crank over several revolutions and feel for any collisions. (Also re-check marks to make sure they are still lined up.) If OK, then see how it runs.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

BrownEyedGuy said:


> The only reason I asked about the ignition timing indicator was to eliminate it as a possibility....just to make sure you weren't overlooking something.
> 
> Right now, it would appear that your cam timing is about 15 degrees after-TDC. So before you try to set this to 10-BDC, first try it at 0-TDC.
> 
> ...


Big Thanks, Brown. I didnt know about the collision, although, not sure my car is that type, but better safe than sorry. Meanwhile, yes, I did (last night) set the crank sprocket mark to match the oil pan one. Then placed ("dry fitted") the pulley (harmonic balancer) gently on the crank key slot, and put up my protractor/level and geez- the cut notch on the balancer which you would expect to match the 10 deg BTDC mark on the non exixtent timing scale now reads at about 30-35 deg BTDC. Do you believe it??? Way too advanced.

Wonder if a engine can even start that advanced, not to mention if it could, and run, it could cause bad pre ignition (detonation?). So, after so much debate/advice here I have NO CHOICE to have to find TDC on piston #1. Agree? Wouldnt you also do that? 

Once I find TDC then I will mark stuff, and see if , like a fellow member advised above, the crank is not "true". Then go from there. 

I dont trust anything anymore on this engine. I will ask the wife to help me with this TDC search. Im sure she will be thrilled.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

A quick way to find T D C, remove spark plug #1, rotate engine CLOCKWISE, by hand ( as opposed to the starter, by hand means you can use a socket/ ratchet.) .

Hold thumb over spark plug hole, when Compression is felt by maybe blowing thumb from hole, you have T D C on #1 cylinder.

Then you can place all the timing stuff properly.

ED


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## Brainbucket (Mar 30, 2015)

I believe the ignition timing indicator in on the outer timing cover on this engine if my memory serves me correctly. :vs_cool:


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Brainbucket said:


> I believe the ignition timing indicator in on the outer timing cover on this engine if my memory serves me correctly. :vs_cool:


Thanks, Brain, and Denorg. I have looked at that black plastic timing cover a hundred time, but who knows, maybe Im just not recognizing it.Hey , weve come this far, and always a new surprise- I will post a picture of it!! What the heck!! If you can find a pointer we (I) will have to celebrate!! Give me a few hours, as Im still at work.........Boss doesnt know Im goofing off on the internet.....LOL


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

heres the pic of the timing cover :


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Also, forgive my childish exuberance but Yipeeee, I just found TDC!! I used Denorgs trick with thumb (and some spit, if thats ok), and it worked! I even verified it also with visual and TDC was the same. 



Turns out the 6:00 crank sprocket mark was almost perfect, but TDC was about 6:15, Good enough for me cuz for 17 years Ive been driving it with ignition timing waaaaay retarded! No wonder car ran rough (we'll wee once 



I start it).


Now, Haynes says to grease inside of o ring of water pump with moly grease. Not sure what that is, but I have axle grease, camshaft grease, rtv, silicone, motor oil. Or nothing? I heard also to use coolant. 



Thnaks.


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

papereater said:


> ........Then placed ("dry fitted") the pulley (harmonic balancer) gently on the crank key slot, and put up my protractor/level and geez- the cut notch on the balancer which you would expect to match the 10 deg BTDC mark on the non exixtent timing scale now reads at about 30-35 deg BTDC. Do you believe it??? Way too advanced.


I was just about to correct you on this, but you posted about finding your TDC anyway. :vs_cool:

In my previous post I was trying to point out that you are currently 10 to 15 degrees retarded, and that's why I suggested it is safest to first try 0 degrees TDC before going 10 degrees advanced.

So yes, what you have just found is exactly what I was expecting (hoping) you would find. Setting your timing to zero, as you have now done, should be completely safe, even if the proper spec is later found to be 10 degrees advanced. (The more advanced you go, the greater the risk of collision.)


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

papereater said:


> Turns out the 6:00 crank sprocket mark was almost perfect, but TDC was about *6:15, Good enough* for me cuz for 17 years Ive been driving it with ignition timing waaaaay retarded! No wonder car ran rough


By the way, unless you used a dial indicator into the cylinder to physically measure TDC, you should assume that the existing timing marks on the crank and pan at 6:00 are correct. The method Denarg told you is an approximate method to get you in the ballpark. Only a dial indicator is going to give you the exact. (or timing marks of course).

In reality, when the crank is within a few degrees of TDC, the piston barely moves for each degree turned. Conversely, when the crank is at 90 degrees, the piston moves the most for each degree the crank turns.


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## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

papereater said:


> Also, forgive my childish exuberance but Yipeeee, I just found TDC!! I used Denorgs trick with thumb (and some spit, if thats ok), and it worked! I even verified it also with visual and TDC was the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Moly grease, is a molybdemum based grease, Black in color, sold in tubes at auto parts stores, I keep a tube around, because it is what my Weed Wacker uses to lube the flex-shaft, each spring.

Might be able to buy a small tube there also, won't hurt to ask. 

Best to use it instead of what you have on hand.


Had another thought, now that you have found as close to T D C as necessary to get it going, pop the distributor cap, and see if the rotor is pointing close to #1 plug wire, it should be at or very close approaching the node in the cap.

While there inspect the rotor and nodes for any burn marks, or wear, cracking and signs that it's time to replace them. 

ED


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

patching it up today. One true/false question: Crank/cam timing is a good approximate method for later ignition FINE TUNE timing. True or false?


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## BrownEyedGuy (Oct 2, 2018)

false. they are not directly related


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Very cool thread... The amazing thing is that this 1987 'Bird is still running and apparently used as a DD. Hope you get this issue corrected. But a water pump running off the timing belt? Sheeesh. What was GM thinking??


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

raylo32 said:


> Very cool thread... The amazing thing is that this 1987 'Bird is still running and apparently used as a DD. Hope you get this issue corrected. But a water pump running off the timing belt? Sheeesh. What was GM thinking??



Right- its a brutal job. Glad you liked my story. GM also goofed on the name- the hotter car is perceived to be its cousin the firebird but they got the names mixed up as the sun is way hotter then fire. Therefore, the sunbird has to be the hotter car. 



The car started right up. But cant test drive it yet cuz doing brakes at same time. I will advise on driving success asap.


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