# New location for main panel



## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

I am preparing to replace my main panel (a Federal Pacific with Stab-Loc breakers). It’s currently located in a half-bathroom. I’m considering relocating the new panel position to a wall on a 4’x4’ stairwell landing between the 1st and 2nd floors. I’m considering this because a) I want the new panel out of the bathroom; and b) there are virtually no alternative locations I can consider, due to floor plan, placement of the 2nd floor (blocking most attic access), and no basement (on a slab).

I’ve been reviewing NEC 2008 – particularly NEC 110.26 – Spaces About Electrical Equipment, and it appears to me that the stairwell meets the space requirements. It’s also the closest location to the service entrance that meets space requirements. However, I’m not sure I’m finding all the NEC sections that are relevant, or that I’m interpreting things correctly.

Is there any code problem with placing the new main panel in the wall on the stairwell landing?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Not that I am aware of as long as all the clearance requirements are met.


do note that a service disconnect must be at the nearest practical location inside the entrance point of the service conductors. That ends up being a local inspectors call. In my area, a lot of people use an 11' rule for the service conductors. I would suggest asking your inspector about the placement before actually getting into the work.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Provided you have the required 30x36" working clearance and the panel can be mounted at an appropriate height...And provided no guardrails or handrails are in the working space...Not a problem. I'm unaware of anything in the NEC or the International Residential Code that would prohibit that installation.

It certainly beats having it in the bathroom!


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## Jupe Blue (Nov 9, 2008)

What is immediately on the other side of the panel? Maybe you could just flip the panel so it's facing into the next room. That way you don't have to relocate the service conductors.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

thekctermite said:


> Provided you have the required 30x36" working clearance and the panel can be mounted at an appropriate height...And provided no guardrails or handrails are in the working space...Not a problem. I'm unaware of anything in the NEC or the International Residential Code that would prohibit that installation.
> 
> It certainly beats having it in the bathroom!






good point about the handrails.

itsdanf; there can be nothing below or above the panel within the clear space designated.

and to appropriate height: not positive but if I remember correctly, the highest breaker can be no higher that 6' 7" in it's uppermost position.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

I'd be positioning the new panel in the wall where the picture is located in the attached photo. Fortunately no handrails there, just a blank wall. Bookcase on right, remaining stairs on left. Minimum ceiling height (on right side) is 7', so I think I'm okay on height issues. The panel would end up about 7' from the meter (about a 10' service wire run).

Jupe, the current panel is in an outside wall; directly on other side is the meter box, mounted on the brick wall. Also, I really don't want to consider an outside panel.

There are no permits/inspections required here (just POCO side; already had them out here), so I really appreciate the responses. It will be real challenging relocating to that spot (attic access is extremely tight there), but it will be worth it to get the panel out of the WC! :thumbup:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I would check with the local inspector. This could be a judgment call. I would consider that located on a stairway and that is not permitted. The bathroom is definitely not permitted.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

It cannot be located on the stairs but it can be located on a landing if the other requirements are met.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

is that landing 3' deep and at least 30" side to side as you face the picture?


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> is that landing 3' deep and at least 30" side to side as you face the picture?


Yes. Landing is 4' deep in front of picture. It's 4'1" side-to-side (from first stair rise on left to end of wall on right). See attached layout.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Oui here ya go that will meet the code on the landing due you say 4 feet both ways so ya good to go.

Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

It turned out to be too difficult to access the proposed panel location in the exterior wall. No access above or below, so I'd have to rip out the drywall and go horizontally through studs. Um, no.

So instead, I've removed the built-in bookcase to the right, and will mount the panel in the wall behind it (see diagram). This location is also well within NEC spacing requirements. 

This will really help the installation process, because that wall backs into the attic -- great access. Also, the location is closer to the old panel, allowing me to move most of the circuit wires from the old panel to the new one without having to splice. I'll only have to splice those wires currently entering the old panel from below (5 circuits). I'll replace the old panel with a smaller box to house the splices. It's just a shame that this solution required losing the built-in book case. 

Thanks again for the replies. It's great to be back on a roll with this project!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

that's a shame. That is the perfect place for a bookcase.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

I would consider your original location on the stairwell landing, and keeping the bookcase. 

You might have to remove some drywall and notch some studs, and then install a piece of conduit between the boxes to relocate the circuits to the new location. You could use the old panel enclosure as a junction box, and install a blank cover over it. 

Small amount of patchwork = bookcase intact! :yes:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Build it against the outside wall maybe ?
Then run a conduit back to the original panel thru the book case if needed
Box the conduit in to match the book case
Box the panel in with the same type wood & add a door
Make it all match


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Hmmm, just when I thought I had the final plan! :wink:

I already removed the bookcase, but it would be easy enough to re-install -- and it will be easier to have it out if I'm going back to the original location.

I had my wife read all your suggestions, and we brainstormed a bit. She'd really like the bookcase back, but we don't want to run conduit/soffit outside of the existing drywall, because we need all the clearance space in the landing for moving furniture through the stairway.

I've currently got 25 circuits (including 8 20A, 8 15A, and nine @220V), plus a sub (three #1, plus a #6 ground); and I'll be adding 3-4 extra circuits (110V/20A). The service lines will be 2/0 for the 200A service.

Questions: Will I need multiple conduit runs for my wiring needs? What size condiuit(s)? Is it better to drill holes through the studs for the conduit(s), or cut notches with metal plates?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> Questions: Will I need multiple conduit runs for my wiring needs? What size condiuit(s)? Is it better to drill holes through the studs for the conduit(s), or cut notches with metal plates?


most likely. Due to the distance being more than a nipple length, you will have to consider derating of the conductors when putting multiple circuits in a conduit.


I prefer to drill holes but in either case, if you remove too much of the stud (maybe kctermite can toss in a % figure or some means to determine "too much") you will have to install (and dang, I cannot remember what they are called) the structural stud brackets made that replace the structural strength you lose by boring too much from the stud.

since this is an outside wall and is surely a load bearing wall, this is an important consideration.


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## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

These sections of the NY State building code may come in handy here. Verify with your locality, but at least it gives you a starting point:


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

This info seems consistent with that from NY posted by secundo. See page 126. http://books.google.com/books?id=m6RGS6c9zI8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=drilling+studs+for+wiring&source=bl&ots=4caFjkdFJg&sig=VyDEiBpUFod7L_eiTr9oqXOZ4LU&hl=en&ei=IZOnS62yOIKANpKGgZ0D&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=drilling%20studs%20for%20wiring&f=false

WARNING! THE BOOK TO WHICH I GAVE A LINK MAY BE SUBJECT TO A RECALL RELATED TO INCORRECT DIAGRAMS. It seems to be the same title and publisher of one of several recalled books, but the cover looks different. I don't know if this is a corrected revised edition or not. I did see where a reviewer said he received a notice from Amazon that his was recalled. I do not believe the particular page I sourced is one of the confusing diagrams which I believe concern the actual wiring of devices.

It also indicates that multiple holes should be bored above and not next to the other.

The picture from the NY code indicates that studs are to be doubled if holes are bored oversize up to a maximum of 60%. I saw some metal strips in the plumbing section of Lowes that may be what NAP was talking about.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for the ongoing great feedback! I'll check locally, but it lookes like the NY standards are fairly consistent with other sources I've tried to find.

Key question: Is there any kind of wire that MUST be in a conduit? I figure that the service wires and sub wires do, particularly since they won't be jacketed. But I assume the remaining circuit wires are okay just being routed through many separate small stud holes, without conduit?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> Key question: Is there any kind of wire that MUST be in a conduit? I figure that the service wires and sub wires do, particularly since they won't be jacketed. But I assume the remaining circuit wires are okay just being routed through many separate small stud holes, without conduit?


the NEC allows NM (Romex) cable but there are places such as Chicago and I think some places in the east that require conduit. I do not know of any other areas that require conduit generally BUT unless somebody here is familiar enough with your area to answer that question specifically for your area, I would suggest asking your local building department/electrical department for the correct answer.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> the NEC allows NM (Romex) cable but there are places such as Chicago and I think some places in the east that require conduit. I do not know of any other areas that require conduit generally BUT unless somebody here is familiar enough with your area to answer that question specifically for your area, I would suggest asking your local building department/electrical department for the correct answer.


Thanks. I'll check locally.

Meanwhile, another issue: The wall between the stairway and my attic consists of (in order) drywall, plastic vapor barrier, stud wall with fiberglass bat insulation with paper backing on the outside (seems redundant), and rigid foam board with reflective silver surface on both faces. QUESTION: Any chance this is a fire rated wall that needs special handling? (Remember, I have no local inspectors to ask about this on-site).


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't think an exterior wall is generally considered or required to be a fire wall. 

You might try PM'ing thekctermite and ask him though.


as to construction:

be sure the vapor barrier is sealed behind the panel and not around the panel when all is said and done. Try to retain as much glass insulation behind the panel as possible (outside of the plastic)

and for the life of me, I cannot find those stud braces I was talking about.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

This isn't what I was thinking of and I don't know what NAP is thinking of, but it can be used for stud repairs as well as to protect pipe. http://www.strong-tie.com/ftp/fliers/F-REPRPROTECT09.pdf

There is something from *TEXAS* at 
http://www.willcoxinspections.com/images/framinginspectionreport.pdf 
referencing the International Residential Code

*602.6 Drilling and notching-studs.*
Any stud in an exterior wall or bearing partition may be cut or notched to a depth not exceeding 25 percent of its width. Studs in nonbearing partitions may be notched to a depth not to exceed 40 percent of a single stud width. Any stud may be bored or drilled, provided that the diameter of the resulting hole is no greater than 40 percent of the stud width, the edge of the hole is no closer than 5/8 inch (15.9 mm) to the edge of the stud, and the hole is not located in the same section as a cut or notch. See Figures R602.6(1) and R602.6(2).
Exceptions:
1. A stud may be bored to a diameter not exceeding 60 percent of its width, provided that such studs located in exterior walls or bearing partitions are doubled and that not more than two successive studs are bored.
2. Approved stud shoes may be used when installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation.

Looks like you can double the studs or use approved stud shoes if you bore a hole over 40% of the stud width.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Klawman said:


> This isn't what I was thinking of and I don't know what NAP is thinking of, but it can be used for stud repairs as well as to protect pipe. http://www.strong-tie.com/ftp/fliers/F-REPRPROTECT09.pdf


yep, the guys around the black pipe. 

I didn't read about this particular brand but there is a structural quality of device made that looks basically like that for when you have chewed a bit too much wood away.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Sorry I haven't been back to this thread in a while...

The exterior wall of your home is probably not a firewall unless:

-Your house is within a few feet of your neighbor's house or the property line...Depends on the code you're under but I think 3' is the magic number.
-Your house is a townhome or duplex/triplex
-Your house is a multi-level structure where you have neighbors above or below

If it is a single family residence in the middle of a lot and isn't crammed next to the neighbor's house, I can 100% assure you that you don't have a rated firewall.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Speaking to the no inspections issue, you might double check if you do in fact live in the City limits...From the way I read it a permit is in fact required. http://www.granbury.org/index.aspx?nid=67

From the way it reads, only contractors can obtain permits in Granbury. That sucks if it is true. Some cities aren't DIY friendly, and people that are as thorough and conscientious as yourself illustrate why they should be. :yes:


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm obviously not that familiar with firewalls in a house :whistling2: -- probably because I've almost always lived in single-family residences with lots of space between houses, and never ahd to deal with them. Looks like I'm okay regarding that issue. 

Nap, thanks, I'll definitely work on your suggestions regarding vapor barrier and insulation behind the panel. I was thinking of putting foam board insulation behind the panel, instead of just smooshing the batting (ran into a similar situation when repairing plumbing on an exterior wall...).

Klawman, thanks for the TX code reference and other info! If needed, I'll definitely be looking at shoes, since I don't want to remove enough drywall to double-up a stud.

Thanks for the kind comments, KC. I don't live inside the Granbury city limits (thank goodness). I've discovered that the no-inspection situation is both a blessing and a curse -- but that's a topic for another thread (probably in the off-topic section).


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

*Another issue: Grounding the new panel*

The old panel is in a finished wall, so I can’t see what the existing ground wire is connected to. I don’t see it exiting the house to connect to a grounding rod, so I’m assuming it’s connected to a water pipe.

I’m planning to install a new ground wire (#6 copper), route it to the outside and attach it to a new grounding rod (8ft). I also plan to run a #6 copper wire to the original panel location and connect to the original ground wire, to assure any existing ground connections (e.g., to plumbing, A/C, etc.) are still maintained. 

Questions: Are there any potential problems with this approach? It’s okay to use uninsulated copper wire for these grounding connections, right? Is #6 the right size (max length run will be under 13’)?


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

A #6 bare or insulated wire is the max size required when connecting to a "made" electrode, such as a ground rod(s).


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> A #6 bare or insulated wire is the max size required when connecting to a "made" electrode, such as a ground rod(s).


Thanks for the response. If #6 is the max size, does that mean I could/should go smaller? Or do you mean max AWG (i.e., smallest), and I could/should go bigger?

Also, what's a _"made" electrode_ (aside from a ground rod)? Never heard that phrase before...

(Sorry, I'm in confused mode tonight) :icon_confused:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> Thanks for the response. If #6 is the max size, does that mean I could/should go smaller? Or do you mean max AWG (i.e., smallest), and I could/should go bigger?
> 
> Also, what's a _"made" electrode_ (aside from a ground rod)? Never heard that phrase before...
> 
> (Sorry, I'm in confused mode tonight) :icon_confused:




a made electrode is an electrode that is simply an electrode. A water pipe, concrete encased electrode, and building steel are not made electrodes. They are what they are but the get used for an electrode as well,

a rod, pipe, or plate electrode is just that, an electrode made of rod, pipe, or plate and that is all it is; an electrode

the size of the conductor is based on the size of the service entrance conductors. If copper SE conductors #2 or smaller, you would need to use a #8 cu GEC to the made electrodes. SE conductor of 1 or 1/0 would need a #6 GEC. Regardless of how large the SE conductors are after that, you only need to use a #6 GEC to the made electrodes. You can always use a larger wire if you want but not smaller and it doesn't need to be larger.

If running to other electrodes, the size requirements are different.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> a made electrode is an electrode that is simply an electrode. A water pipe, concrete encased electrode, and building steel are not made electrodes. They are what they are but the get used for an electrode as well,
> 
> a rod, pipe, or plate electrode is just that, an electrode made of rod, pipe, or plate and that is all it is; an electrode
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification, Nap! I'm back on track (for now.... :whistling2.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

*ROUTING CONDUIT:*

I've cut out the drywall for the new panel location, and am trying to determine how to route conduit. There are actually two walls: The interior wall, and the exterior wall built on top of the brick facade on the lower floor (see diagrams). There's 4" of space between the interior and exterior walls.

Question: Can I route conduit between the two stud walls for about 3 1/2 feet? I'd be using 1 1/2" EMT for 2/0 wires from meter, and 1 1/4" PVC for sub-panel (attached to the inner-wall studs).


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Itsdanf said:


> *ROUTING CONDUIT:*
> 
> I've cut out the drywall for the new panel location, and am trying to determine how to route conduit. There are actually two walls: The interior wall, and the exterior wall built on top of the brick facade on the lower floor (see diagrams). There's 4" of space between the interior and exterior walls.
> 
> Question: Can I route conduit between the two stud walls for about 3 1/2 feet? I'd be using 1 1/2" EMT for SE wire, and 1 1/4" PVC for sub-panel (attached to the inner-wall studs).


You don't need conduit for SE cable.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

brric said:


> You don't need conduit for SE cable.


Sorry, my error: Not "SE cable." Will be three 2/0 wires for my service entry feed (i.e., wire from the meter socket to the main panel). I understand I need to use 1 1/2" EMT for these.

The 1 1/4" PVC conduit will carry three #1 wire and a #6 green for a sub-panel.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Itsdanf said:


> Sorry, my error: Not "SE cable." Will be three 2/0 wires for my service entry feed (i.e., wire from the meter socket to the main panel). I understand I need to use 1 1/2" EMT for these.
> 
> The 1 1/4" PVC conduit will carry three #1 wire and a #6 green for a sub-panel.


NEC requires 2" EMT for 3 2/0 conductors.

Both sets copper I presume?


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

brric said:


> NEC requires 2" EMT for 3 2/0 conductors.
> 
> Both sets copper I presume?


:furious: That's what I get for listening to the guy at the electrical supply shop...

Okay, 2" EMT (thanks!). Yes, both sets will be copper.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

So ..... back to the question from post #34: Is the use of conduit between the two walls okay?


(I'm hoping so, 'cause it will sure make the install easier!)


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Itsdanf said:


> So ..... back to the question from post #34: Is the use of conduit between the two walls okay?
> 
> 
> (I'm hoping so, 'cause it will sure make the install easier!)


Yes, as long as it is properly secured.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

brric said:


> Yes, as long as it is properly secured.


Great! 

I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to secure them, since I can't access the back of the studs from the front... -- but I'll think of something!

Thanks for the great feedback.

Dan


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

brric said:


> NEC requires 2" EMT for 3 2/0 conductors.
> 
> Both sets copper I presume?


my 2008 NEC says 1 1/2":whistling2:
specs: THWN wire, EMT

dan, post 34. You are going to have a problem running the conduit like you picture. a 90º bend is like a foot tall (don't have the exact height at hand) so unless you have that much room behind the panels, you are going to have to run the conduit into the side of the panel and use an offset to run it behind the studs.

how are you entering the meter box?

you might have to remove some more drywall like so you can get to the top and bottom plates of the wall. If it were me, I would cut out the stud shown to be on the right hand side of the panel and use a header and appropriate king and jack studs. By the time you come into the side of the panel, it will remove almost all of the stud on that side. Not a good thing to do.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

nap said:


> my 2008 NEC says 1 1/2":whistling2:
> specs: THWN wire, EMT
> 
> dan, post 34. You are going to have a problem running the conduit like you picture. a 90º bend is like a foot tall (don't have the exact height at hand) so unless you have that much room behind the panels, you are going to have to run the conduit into the side of the panel and use an offset to run it behind the studs.
> ...


Sorry, Nap is correct. I looked at the wrong wire type. I don't know why you don't just use SE cable.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I see 1.5" also for EMT...if this chart is right ?
Seems same as Annex C

http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=47


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

brric said:


> Sorry, Nap is correct. I looked at the wrong wire type. I don't know why you don't just use SE cable.


Why not SE cable? Probably because, in my ignorance, I didn't ask the right questions ahead of time. I'm in the "knows enough to be dangerous" mode. For some stupid reason, I thought all meter-to-panel conductors were always supposed to be individual wires in conduit. If I'd only known!!!! :furious:

Unfortunately I spent $170 this afternoon buying 2/0 wire and 2" EMT conduit and couplings from the electrical supply shop. Based on my previous conversations with them (about returning unused conduit parts), I believe they'll let me exchange the 2" EMT stuff for 1 1/2"; however, I doubt they'll let me exchange it all for SE cable. 

Well, guess I can talk to them and see. Now that I know about SE cable (just Googled a bit on it), I might try to return the EMT parts, eat the cost of the 2/0 wire, and buy some SE cable -- just for the easier installation.

Who knows, maybe I can sell the 2/0 wire on craigslist...


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!


depending on the distance and the local inspector, he may not be able to use SE cable. I can promise you, in my area, the inspector would not allow SE in the wall like that.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> WAIT A MINUTE!!!!
> 
> 
> depending on the distance and the local inspector, he may not be able to use SE cable. I can promise you, in my area, the inspector would not allow SE in the wall like that.


Distance would be approx 7' run. If I used SE, it would be routed through the studs, not around them.

I'm the only inspector. :whistling2: I'm tough, but cautiously open to pragmatic solutions. What are the issues with using SE? Seriously, I don't want to use it if it's not compliant. Since I don't have an inspector, I'm leaning heavily on the great advise I'm getting on this site!.....


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

code requires a disconnect (generally the main in the panel) be installed in a readily accessible location inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors

the inspector in my area has deemed that to mean you cannot run the cable parallel through a wall more than just enough to change the height difference between the entrance points or possibly a very small sideward distance.


We used to have a unwritten rule that as long as the cable was less than 11 feet, you were good.

just to give you a reason for this: that cable is fused only by what ever the power company has inline. Since 1 transformer is often used to feed multiple houses, that means that wire can actually be way overfused.

and a little story:

guy was building a house. Ran the SE from one side of the house to the other, exposed. Somebody ran a screw into the cable but not enough contact to blow the fuse so basically, it ended up being a nice resistance heater, at least until it started the wood on fire and burned the house down.


so now, you can do it however you want now that you understand why it is done a particular way.:yes:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

didn't mean to freak you out. In many areas, using SE cable would be just fine as you are using it. I'm a commercial/industrial guy so as far as we are concerned, anybody that doesn't use conduit is a weenie. As we often say, we don't pull no rope (a slang term for NM cable)


and if you saw me installing NM, you would understand why I don't pull no rope and might not want me to pull your either. I admit, there is an art to it and I just don't do enough to become really good at it.:whistling2:

anyway, I always prefer pipe but that doesn't mean some other installation is not just fine. Hang on for a few of the other guys to comment on your intended use though just to get some resi guys (rope yankers) opinions before you start swapping stuff.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

I was going thru this part and Nap did offer one option and for myself there is other option if you insted using the SE cable inside the wall if that part is unfused many inspector will get worry about it due many location they will say one word " short as possible ".

If your local stated under 5 feet then you may open up new can of worms so one soultion I done pretty often when I see more than 5 feet worth of SE or service entrance conduit going in the building then I put in main breaker or fuse box outside location and with outdoor main breaker you can basically run unlimited of SE or service entrance conduit but ya have to use 4 wire set up instead of three wire set up.

But I heard but I will not able confirm with Texas codes some stated 5 foot some say 3 foots so it kinda pretty wide open shot with distance so check with the inspector { county electrique inspector } to see what they have to say for unfused conductors in the building.

Merci,Marc


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

That will be one long screw to reach an SE cable installed between those two stud walls. Anyway, what you are arguing would require a disconnect at the meter whether one is using SE cable or a conduit installation.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

brric said:


> That will be one long screw to reach an SE cable installed between those two stud walls. Anyway, what you are arguing would require a disconnect at the meter whether one is using SE cable or a conduit installation.


just trying to give reasoning with the information.

and no, if it is in conduit, it changes everything. If in conduit, it is considered to be protected (not as in fused properly but physical protection) and as such, would be allowed to extend further. He is very concerned about unprotected (physically) SE conductors.

I have to admit, the inspector in our area is not very lenient in this and it is his interpretation. It simply isn't worth it to argue this type of point with him as the state could easily see it his way and allow his ruling to stand since there is no well defined directive in the code.

Ya gotta learn what battles are worth fighting and understand how those battles affect the overall war. Winning one battle simply for the sake of winning it is foolish if winning that battle causes you to lose the war.:thumbsup:

Personally, I could reasonably argue that the panel is in fact the nearest point of entrance of the SE conductors as the bathroom is a no no. His argument would be to move the point where the cable enters the wall (i.e. run the cable outside the wall either in conduit or exposed, it wouldn't matter). a battle not worth fighting IMO.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Well, it's a moot point. Apparently no place around here carries 2/0 SE cable or can get it in small lengths. One place said they could get an order from the factory, but I would have to buy 500' minimum. Uh, ...no thank you! 

My conduit source is willing to swap out my 2" EMT parts for 1.5". Not surprisingly, he wasn't able to consider taking back the 2/0 wire.

I'm not a total weenie, Nap. I'm going with conduit! :yes:

Now, regarding how to secure the conduit: It'd be very difficult to secure standard fasteners on the back side of the wall, given there's only 4" of space back there. I considered the following two options, and think I'll go with #2, using a one-hole mounting strap.....


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

#2 looks good.

can you reach the framing for the outside wall? What about simply taking the conduit back to that framing and using a 1 hole strap on the edge of the studs facing you?

FYI: conduit must be secured within 3 feet of a box so that means you would need two attachments. One within 3 feet of each end. That's it.

have you thought about how to enter the panel. Like I said, a 90º bend isn't going to fit between the panel and the back wall.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Get the 15 or 22° kick or ell it will bend toward the excat location where you will land in the stud so 22° plus 90° Ell it will go nice in that spot.

Otherwise I will say some I just say some electrical shops in your area may willing to bend the conduit for you like make first 90° then 20° or 22° kick over that will fit right in the two by four cavity.

Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> #2 looks good.
> 
> can you reach the framing for the outside wall? What about simply taking the conduit back to that framing and using a 1 hole strap on the edge of the studs facing you?
> 
> ...


The outside of the inner wall is sheathed in foam board. I took the photo below in the attic, looking between the two walls (inner wall on left, outer on right). I’ve input white lines showing the approximate path of the conduit.

A couple points:

1. Squirrels apparently got into the attic and nested there, prior to my owning the house. That’s what caused all the damage to the foam board.

2. The horizontal run of the conduit will only be about 5.5 feet. I’m assuming you need two supports, regardless of length. There's only about 1.5 feet of open space before the conduit enters the "inbetween" area, so I can't access the exterior wall for the 2nd support without going through the foam board. That's one reason I considered option #1 from my previous post, since I could cut a small hole in the board, slip the wood in and secure it, then route the conduit through the hole -- minimal tearout of the foam board. Of course, I'd have to be very precise to make the EMT end up at the right panel position!

I’m not sure how to turn the corner into the panel. I was going to ask the supply shop tomorrow about options. In PVC conduit, there’s a “LB access fitting." Is there such a fitting for EMT? That, or something similar, would allow me to enter from the back of the panel. 

I could go higher with the conduit, do a downwards 90*, then a couple of 45*s to "zig-zag" over for a top entry to the panel (2nd photo). However, this would probably add a number of feet to the overall run, and I don't think I have enough wire length! 

Any other suggestions? After looking at the 90 degree fitting, I’m realizing it’s going to be a problem….. (and I'm starting to feel like a weenie again)


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

dang, whack me with a stick. I look at itdanf's drawing and all I see it the pipe coming into the back of the box.


Thanks for waking me up Marc.

come out of the top or bottom of the box, then a 90º bend and the a 20º bend with the centerline of the bend at a 90º rotation from the centerline oc the 90º bend. Geesh. Don't know what I was thinking.


itsdanf, is this conduit then going to the meter base which will be outside facing directly opposite of the inside panel? If so, getting into that presents s few problems of it's own.

You're pretty good with the drawings. Can you take the one in post #34 and add to it to show where the meter base is. If you could toss some dimension in it might help as well.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

LB's are available for use with emt but they must remain accessible and cannot be buried in the walls.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

nap said:


> Thanks for waking me up Marc.


Sûr n'importe quand mais obtiennent une bonne tasse de café d'abord avant que vous ne doubliez le contrôle l'écran MDR!! 

Sure anytime but get a good cup of coffee first before you double check the screen LOL !! 

Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> ...come out of the top or bottom of the box, then a 90º bend and the a 20º bend with the centerline of the bend at a 90º rotation from the centerline oc the 90º bend...


Uh........:huh:

I'll work on that drawing. What I lack in good drawing software, I make up in persistence. :laughing: Will take me a few minutes....


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

LB's can't be buried in the wall. They must remain accessible.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

The best route you can do with this set up with new load centre is run the main conductors from bottom so that way it will keep it short as possible then you can able deal with smaller conduits that will be far much eaiser to deal with it otherwise you can run with MC { metal clad } cable that will work very well also.

Merci,Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Itsdanf.,

You can able run couple 90°'s without issue and just add a 20° kick it will work without need to use any LB fitting at all and it will work alot better this way.

Merci,Marc


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

frenchelectrican said:


> otherwise you can run with MC { metal clad } cable that will work very well also.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Now there's a good idea, if itsdanf can get a short piece of it.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Get sum 4/0 Al SE cable.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks (and merci) for the ongoing advice and support!! :yes:

Here's the drawing I promised. Couldn't get the stud cavities to scale, but hopefully you can get the general idea. 

The meter currently connects to the old panel with a nipple. My plan was to route the new 2/0 wire into the old panel (which I'm gutting and keeping as a junction box),then to the attic with EMT conduit, and from there to the new box.

Okay, I won't use LB's in closed-off walls (neither for this, nor for the sub-panel PVC conduit). I assume it's still okay to use in the attic if accessible.

I like the idea of 2/0 MC or 4/0 AL SEU, but will have to see availability (and cost). I'll check tomorrow.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Itsdanf said:


> Distance would be approx 7' run. If I used SE, it would be routed through the studs, not around them.





Itsdanf said:


> 1. Squirrels apparently got into the attic and nested there, prior to my owning the house. That’s what caused all the damage to the foam board.
> 
> 2. The horizontal run of the conduit will only be about 5.5 feet. I’m assuming you need two supports, regardless of length. There's only about 1.5 feet of open space before the conduit enters the "inbetween" area, so I can't access the exterior wall for the 2nd support without going through the foam board. That's one reason I considered option #1 from my previous post, since I could cut a small hole in the board, slip the wood in and secure it, then route the conduit through the hole -- minimal tearout of the foam board. Of course, I'd have to be very precise to make the EMT end up at the right panel position!





brric said:


> Get sum 4/0 Al SE cable.




Brric.,

Look back to the OP's comment as I quoted in here and the total run is about 7 feet long so it is not very long run at all so if OP do make a EMT conduit and bend to the shape.
I can belive he should able get the conduit in the place and the tub { panel } centred in the stud cavity he should able hit the nail right on dead centre.

I have a feeling he {OP } may end up have two peices of EMT to get all together on this one depending on how sharp the kick it will be bend in there and as long he follow our directions there is no need to use the LB fitting at all { it will make heckva better to pull the conductors }

If I was near his place for sure I will swing by and give him a hand to deal with it.

Merci,Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Merci for the drawing here now I can able visuized it clear however I have one major question where you will run new conductors from meter socket to the new load centre due I know NEC code do not allow unfused and fused conductors in the same box at all { what I will be pointing to the gutted out load centre } so that something else you have to think about.

sorry to step on your toes but that do click on my mind .,,,,

Merci,Marc

P.s. how deep between the old tub and meter socket on that wall cavity ?? I may have a idea or duex.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

heck, if you are keeping the old panel as a junction box, 

a couple different ways and depending on the clearances with the studs, it may be easier one way or another.

1 method. out of the bottom of the new panel, the a kick (20º-30º) back into the all. Then a 90º bend towards the right (towards old panel). Then when you get above the old panel, 90º turn down. then an offset to bring the conduit to the face of the wall so it will enter the old panel.


are you understanding the kicks? what they are? what they do?


and to Marc point about fused and unfused conductors in the same box: I have never been dinged by an inspector for making my own dividers in a box. If you make a path straight up from where the nipple to the meter base is to the top of the old panel, and then make the new conduit enter the old panel at that point, you should be fine as long as you can effectively prevent intermingling of fused and unfused conductors.


and yes, I realize you do not happen to have a 555 bender laying around to bend this conduit. We will work on this one step at a time but we'll get you there.

how about a pic of the old panel so we can see how things are routed in there?


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Merci for the drawing here now I can able visuized it clear however I have one major question where you will run new conductors from meter socket to the new load centre due I know NEC code do not allow unfused and fused conductors in the same box at all { what I will be pointing to the gutted out load centre } so that something else you have to think about.
> 
> sorry to step on your toes but that do click on my mind .,,,,
> 
> ...


Marc, you're not stepping on my toes -- but I feel sometimes like the NEC is stepping on my neck! 

There's only about a 1-1.5 inch gap between the back of the panel and the brick wall; the external brick wall on the ground floor is thicker than the external stud wall above it.



nap said:


> heck, if you are keeping the old panel as a junction box,
> 
> a couple different ways and depending on the clearances with the studs, it may be easier one way or another.
> 
> ...


Photos attached. I was going to use the center-top cutout for the EMT. For the other conductors (for the 5 circuits entering from the bottom), I was going to route them through holes on the upper-right side.

I think I'm getting your suggested "kicks," but I'm more of a visual guy. I'll try to play with parts to get the picture. I'm not sure what a "555 bender" is, but I've seen large pipe benders near the EMT in a big box store recently. I can check it out more closely (maybe even find someone there who knows which one can handle 1.5" EMT -- maybe... :whistling2: ).

PS: Yes, those are dead wasps on the bottom of the panel. To add to my varied challenges, I have wasps entering the weather head and going down the mast into the meter box -- and even coming into the panel! Yet another thing to deal with.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Here what Nap is refering the 555 bender look like;











As I speak in French we call them " C triplé " { cinq cinq cinq }

And this bender can have diffrent shoe size to work with other conduit size.

BTW some are electrique drive and some are hydruallique drive and some are manual { that only can go up to 1.5 inch emt otherwise ya will have heckva a time to bend it }

Now for wall gap I don't think it going to be festivable to do this but Nap have correct idea and now that will be little " fun " to deal topback loaders { that what I call them like that set up } 

IIRC you can get 3X70mm² { 3X 2/0 AWG } copper MC cable otherwise you will need 3X95mm² { 3X 3/0 AWG } Alum MC cable overall length IMO best get 15 foot so you will have more than engouh to make the termation with MC's plus you will have to bring in new bonding conductors as well.

Now this is the example of the conduit kick as we electricians terms is so here the photo look like but it pretty big











Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Here what Nap is refering the 555 bender look like;
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> ...


Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender. 

Merci for the drawing! I'm understanding the conduit kick concept better. As shown in the attached diagram (top view): A 90* elbow coming out the top of the new box, but angled to just clear the stud. Then a straight conduit bent on one end to straighten out the run; then bent at the other end to connect with another 90* turn down into the wall; then going straight down to the old panel. The trick will be to avoid going too deep into the cavity between the two walls. I might have to trim off some of the 90* pieces to make it all fit.

When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.

Thanks again, all of you, for the great guidance and suggestions!


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Itsdanf said:


> Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender.


 I have manual rachting bender for that size and it is pretty big beast at first but once you use it a bit it is not too bad and also I keep the C triplé with me also for larger conduit but for monster size conduit myself and other EC share this hydraullique bender that can bend much bigger conduits 4 inch is the largest I useally deal but from time to time I get monster 6 inches :huh:



> Merci for the drawing! I'm understanding the conduit kick concept better. As shown in the attached diagram (top view): A 90* elbow coming out the top of the new box, but angled to just clear the stud. Then a straight conduit bent on one end to straighten out the run; then bent at the other end to connect with another 90* turn down into the wall; then going straight down to the old panel. The trick will be to avoid going too deep into the cavity between the two walls. I might have to trim off some of the 90* pieces to make it all fit.


 May I suggest the other idea with old panel run the conduit up a little then kick it out so that way you have straght section of EMT conduit going horzontal then bend 90° and kick it up toward to bottom of new load centre so that way you can keep the conduit run short as possible and with new load centre you can have it bottom feed so the guts in there is invertiable { can switch from top feed to bottom feed } as long you have horzontal main breaker handle but with vertical main breaker handle the bet is off unless you snag a bottom feed main breaker verison. { few case I can able swap it around }




> When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.
> 
> Thanks again, all of you, for the great guidance and suggestions!


 Bon Chance { good luck } but as long as we say again keep the conduit run short as possible you may get lucky on this part and yeah I really recomoned get a fish tape as well so you can able pull the new conductors and get wire lube as well that will make it easier to pull in { yeah it will be little messy but it do wonders }

Merci,Marc


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> Itsdanf;422043]Nope, the 555 doesn't look like a DIY tool! The good news is that, since I'll be using 1.5" EMT, I might be able to bend it with a manual bender.


 Like in a hand bender?

nope. 1 1/4 is the largest hand bender I am aware of.





> When I bought my 2/0 wire, I was an optimist: I only bought 36' -- enough for 12' per wire. I should have bought longer. Guess we'll see.


hopefully you haven't cut it. If not, you will still be able to get 2 conductors out of the 36' and only have to buy enough for the 3rd conductor.

Never cut wire until you have the pipe installed and can measure the run. You would be surprised how much a kick here and there can add to the overall length.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

*Challenge #1: Bending 1.5" EMT:* Called around and verified there are no hand benders for 1.5". Rats. HOWEVER, the blue box guy suggested asking a muffler shop to bend it. Brilliant! Called a local muffler shop, and they said EMT's outside diameter might not fit their clamps perfectly, but for 20* it would probably work anyway. EMT's cheap enough to try! I'll try 20*, and if it doesn't work, buy another pipe and try a different angle.

*Challenge #2: Length of 2/0 wire:* I haven't cut it. I realized that I wouldn't know the real length until I knew the exact conduit run length. Worst case, I'll be buying another 15' or so, and selling 10' or so on craigslist. :laughing: I have a Square-D Homeline 40/40 panel with a horizontal main shutoff (photo attached). It's 39" tall. Can I simply install the whole panel upside-down? That could save as much as 3 -5 feet of run!

*Side note:* While calling around, I asked about metalic-clad cable. Nope, not available.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Yes, I would bottom feed the panel.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

#1; you can purchase factory 90º's, 45º's, and maybe some of lesser angle. Not sure about the last one as when I'm running conduit, I happen to have a bender available to me so it has never been important to me. If you can buy some lesser angles, you can piece this all together Using factory bends, straight pieces, and couplings. Isn't my favorite way to do it but it's legal, it will be hidden, and it will get the job done.

Be sure to ream or file the cut ends of the conduit so there are no burrs that could cut the insulation on the wire.

#1a. if you have a friend or a friend of a friend that has an electrician buddy that has access to a bender, beer or money can be a great persuader. 


#2. sounds good

#3 as long as the main breaker is side to side, yes, you can mount it upside down. If you look at the thing, you will probably see decals/labels that are installed both ways just so one of them will be right side up however you mount it.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

The guy at the local muffler shop bent the EMT pipe for me (refused compensation; said come back when I need muffler work -- I will). He put a 20* bend on both ends of a 10' segment.

I'm finding it a bit challenging trying to get it all to fit, however. I punched through the inner wall and took some measurements, and figured out that a) the old and new box are a bit closer than I thought; and b) the new box location is not as high as I thought. As you can see in the attached diagram, I only have 14" to play with to route the EMT from the bottom of the new panel to the top plate over the old one. I really need 24" to make a flat run, given the 90* fittings take about 12" in height. I can gain a couple inches by cutting the 90* fitting, but still not enough.

I'm going to play around with the parts a bit, and see if I can figure out how to make the run with the horizontal conduit crossing over at an angle, to manage the space problem. I can see where it'd be beneficial to have a bender, to customize the fit for this awkward situation. Instead, I'll just need to take my time and figure out how to twist and angle all the parts to finally fit (hopefully without having to go back to the muffler place for an "adjustment").

Not sure you all can help more at this point (unless you want to visit...-- and bring a bender). Thanks again for all the great advice! I could not have done it without your help! 

Dan

PS: Cutting EMT sucks. Used a hacksaw, but think my blade's not sharp enough. Used a metal-cutting blade in a jigsaw. Used a metal-cutting disk in my circular saw. Still looking for the best approach. Guess I'll buy new hacksaw blades, and try to cut straighter...:whistling2:


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

So, is this installation going to have service conductors and branch circuit conductors in the same emt?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

brric said:


> So, is this installation going to have service conductors and branch circuit conductors in the same emt?


 I just hope the OP not doing that route at all with other conduits I know there are a bit of feixable conduit he can use it will be easier to fish in new conductors and I am sure it will be more than 6 flex conduits for sure all it depending on the numbers and size of conductors.

Merci,Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

What you should ask the muffer shop for Manderel bend which it mean it will bend without any kinks or shunked in couple part that can kill the whole conduit run.

otherwise you can try the offset kick if I remember right you have 2X4 construction on the walls so set the kicks at 4 or 4 1/2 inches it will fit in really nice.

Merci,Marc


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Service conductors are not allowed in the same raceway as branch circuit conductors and feeders.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

brric said:


> So, is this installation going to have service conductors and branch circuit conductors in the same emt?


No way I'd do that. The 1 1/2" EMT is just for the service conductors (2/0). 

I'll have a separate PVC conduit entering the box for the wires to the sub-panel (1 1/4" gray PVC, with 3 #1 wires and a #6 green). I'm routing it from the outside, so I think I'll be able to come straight into the back of the box for that one (no routing nightmares, I hope).

For the branch circuits, I'll route cables through the studs using a lot of bore holes (aligned vertically in the studs, with no side-by-side holes, and not too close to the forward stud edge).


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

I guess I'm lost as to why the emt is going to the old panel.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> What you should ask the muffer shop for Manderel bend which it mean it will bend without any kinks or shunked in couple part that can kill the whole conduit run.
> 
> otherwise you can try the offset kick if I remember right you have 2X4 construction on the walls so set the kicks at 4 or 4 1/2 inches it will fit in really nice.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Hmmm... The bends do have a bit of a kink in them. I'm attaching some photos.

"Manderel bend," eh? Rats......... I hope these bends are okay.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

brric said:


> I guess I'm lost as to why the emt is going to the old panel.


the old panel sets in front of the meter base. this is the easiest method to get in from the meter base and eventually up to the new panel. He doesn't have enough room to go in the back of the meter base because the old panel and the wall is not thick enough to allow room for a 90º bend going into the meter base. anything else to get into the meter base would look pretty ugly.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> Hmmm... The bends do have a bit of a kink in them. I'm attaching some photos.
> 
> "Manderel bend," eh? Rats......... I hope these bends are okay.


if you don't tell, I know I won't.:whistling2: they will suffice and they aren't really that bad to get freaked about.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

nap said:


> the old panel sets in front of the meter base. this is the easiest method to get in from the meter base and eventually up to the new panel. He doesn't have enough room to go in the back of the meter base because the old panel and the wall is not thick enough to allow room for a 90º bend going into the meter base. anything else to get into the meter base would look pretty ugly.


Now I see said the blind man. The old branch circuits are then going to a new location.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

with that little kink like that you show on the photo IMO it should be ok but any more bend than that you will raise serious issue with inside opening as long you bring the new conductors in staggered pattern you will be fine.

Merci,Marc


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

hay dan, a fine toothed hacksaw blade (24 tpi or finer) that has the paint scraped off, a real good grip with the opposite hand and a position that would make a yogi proud.:yes:


put the pipe behind the knee furthest from the hacksaw hand. then bend the knee closed onto the pipe. The pipe continues across the front of the thigh of the other leg. You end up in a kind of kneeling/seetting position. Then, using a Hulk grip with the non-saw hand, hold on and whack away with the whacksaw.

Looks weird, works pretty good.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

brric said:


> Now I see said the blind man. The old branch circuits are then going to a new location.


yes via either a different conduit or many runs of NM I would expect.


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

Great, the bends will work! (thank goodness......) :thumbup:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

:laughing:if you don't have room to do the bottom of new to top of old panel, what about top to top or bottom to bottom of each of the panels. Since this is close than you realized, maybe it won't be so bad for conductor length after all.

I also just noticed: in the picture with the 90º bend attached to the stick with the kick in it, the 90º is NOT exactly perpendicular to the kick bend. If we are going to be helping you, we want to see some tradesman quality work out there:laughing:

where is your torpedo level????


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> yes via either a different conduit or many runs of NM I would expect.


Many runs of NM thru the studs.

NM cable that enter the bottom of the old panel will be spliced inside the old panel to new cable, and run up the wall into the attic (using holes from circuits that previously entere from the top). 

NM cable that previously entered the old panel from the top MAY be long enough to reach the new panel. If so, life will be grand! If not, I bought a small panel that I'll gut and use as a junction box in the attic to splice the remaining NM (but I REALLY hope this won't be needed).


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> :laughing:if you don't have room to do the bottom of new to top of old panel, what about top to top or bottom to bottom of each of the panels. Since this is close than you realized, maybe it won't be so bad for conductor length after all.
> 
> I also just noticed: in the picture with the 90º bend attached to the stick with the kick in it, the 90º is NOT exactly perpendicular to the kick bend. If we are going to be helping you, we want to see some tradesman quality work out there:laughing:
> 
> where is your torpedo level????


:laughing: The lack of tradesman quality is in the photo, not the elbow.

Okay, it actually, it IS off a bit, but I'm still playing with angles to see what might fit. Wait until you see the final photo! :laughing:

If I go top-to-top, I think I'll still be short for the service conductors. Not huge issue to buy more, but I am on a budget. That's my backup plan. 

It's actually hard to fix the conduit situation, since I can't drill into the top plate above the old panel yet -- that must wait until the day I have the power shut off and do the whole transition. Until then, I'm trying to do as much work as possible before power-down. Regardless, i think I can figure this out (famous last words...).


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

When you doing this changeover the load centre location so I will give you the head up from my experince you will have no power for at least more than half day some case a full day so plan to rent a generator or beg your freind's generator but please heed our safety warning do not backfeed to the house system at all.

I have done worst than that.

Merci,Marc


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> hay dan, a fine toothed hacksaw blade (24 tpi or finer) that has the paint scraped off, a real good grip with the opposite hand and a position that would make a yogi proud.:yes:
> 
> 
> put the pipe behind the knee furthest from the hacksaw hand. then bend the knee closed onto the pipe. The pipe continues across the front of the thigh of the other leg. You end up in a kind of kneeling/seetting position. Then, using a Hulk grip with the non-saw hand, hold on and whack away with the whacksaw.
> ...


I almost missed this post!

Okay, your turn to post photos. :laughing:


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> When you doing this changeover the load centre location so I will give you the head up from my experince you will have no power for at least more than half day some case a full day so plan to rent a generator or beg your freind's generator but please heed our safety warning do not backfeed to the house system at all.
> 
> I have done worst than that.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Yup, I planned on the transition taking a full day -- and possibly going overnight. Ony real concern is the refrigerator and freezer. I'm planning to run extension cords from my two neighbors -- one to keep batteries charged for the drill and flashlight; the other to run the fridge or freezer. That will be an eat-out day!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Itsdanf said:


> I almost missed this post!
> 
> Okay, your turn to post photos. :laughing:


trust me, you wouldn't really want to see an old guy whacking conduit.

Hey, if you have a 6 foot step ladder, there is a real easy way to use it as a pipe holder while you cut.

simply put the pipe through the rungs, front to back at a comfortable height. Push the pipe to the right if you cut right handed, to the left if you cut left handed.

Then, using the hand without the saw in it, grasp around the pipe and the rail of the ladder and hold it there while whacking with the saw in the other hand.

When cutting conduit, start out gentle and work into an aggressive action. It usually is easier that way.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

Could Dan have ran those cables through two pieces of smaller diameter emt?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Klawman said:


> Could Dan have ran those cables through two pieces of smaller diameter emt?


simple answer is no you can not run seperated conductors in seperated conduit the key issue is magatnic effect that will heat up the conduit I allready see that before.

And the OP did mention he will be running 70mm² { 2/0 AWG } conductors.
{ that is new unfused conductors from meter socket to the new load centre location }

Merci,Marc


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> simple answer is no you can not run seperated conductors in seperated conduit the key issue is magatnic effect that will heat up the conduit I allready see that before.
> 
> And the OP did mention he will be running 70mm² { 2/0 AWG } conductors.
> { that is new unfused conductors from meter socket to the new load centre location }
> ...


I figured there was a reason for not splitting the conductors, else that would have been suggested, but had no idea what; especially magnetic effect heating the conduit. Thank you for explaining.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Klawman said:


> I figured there was a reason for not splitting the conductors, else that would have been suggested, but had no idea what; especially magnetic effect heating the conduit. Thank you for explaining.


It is actually a kind of curiously neat thing to see.

If you google "induction heating" you will understand what is happening. 

it can create a LOT of heat.


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## Klawman (Nov 10, 2009)

nap said:


> It is actually a kind of curiously neat thing to see.
> 
> If you google "induction heating" you will understand what is happening.
> 
> it can create a LOT of heat.



I see what you guys are talking about, sort of, after looking at wikipedia for induction heating. Just a guess, but I imagine you don't have the problem, or not to the same degree, when the wires are in one conduit as the (I know I am not supposed to say positive and negative) alternating currents balance each other out. That is getting to far afield. Thank you guys for answering my question.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Klawman said:


> , when the wires are in one conduit as the (I know I am not supposed to say positive and negative) alternating currents balance each other out.


close enough for this thread


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## Itsdanf (Jan 29, 2009)

nap said:


> trust me, you wouldn't really want to see an old guy whacking conduit.
> 
> Hey, if you have a 6 foot step ladder, there is a real easy way to use it as a pipe holder while you cut.
> 
> ...


Nap, great recommendations for cutting EMT. I used your original suggestion ("put the pipe behind the knee furthest from the hacksaw hand. then bend the knee closed onto the pipe. The pipe continues across the front of the thigh of the other leg. You end up in a kind of kneeling/seetting position. Then, using a Hulk grip with the non-saw hand, hold on and whack away with the whacksaw"), and between that and a new (w)hacksaw blade, it worked fine!

Thanks to you and all the other posters on this thread for the great advice. I've now completed the bulk of the work (documented on the Project Showcase thread: http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/unintended-kitchen-remodel-59526/, starting around post #74). While I've got a lot of "tidying up" to do, I'm quite pleased with how things turned out -- and I couldn't have done it without all your help! THANKS!!!!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I took a look at the thread. Didn't want to post there and interrupt the flow so I figured I would post here.

Not bad days work:whistling2:



for future reference; Clear Glide, SylGlide, OptiLube all suck for general electrical use IMO.

Ideal Yellow 77 or 77+ is my lube of choice.

the others are good for Cat cable, coax, fiber, and the like.


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