# Deck building



## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm officially in the market for a new back deck. I'm thinking it will be 15' out from house and 30' across the house. Now can you guys tell me if I'm crazy to think I can have this done for $2-3k for materials and labor? I would like a set of stairs on both sides also.
On


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

How would we possibly know? Draw up some plans and get estimates from local contractors.

That said, I think the answer is not a chance. Around here, $2K would barely pay for just the materials.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

On a side note. How hard is a deck to build? I would pay someone to attach the ledger board to the house just to be sure its font right but other than that how hard would it be? I'd like to use composite material for the floor and railings.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

md2lgyk said:


> How would we possibly know? Draw up some plans and get estimates from local contractors.
> 
> That said, I think the answer is not a chance. Around here, $2K would barely pay for just the materials.


How about this question... How close to a tree can I bring the deck out to? The current deck is about 7' away from a tree in the back yard. I want the new one to extend out from the house more since the current one is only about 6-7' out from house.









That is from the door. The tree on the right is a little closer.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Hmmm....450sf. Good quality composite. My "guess" is 6k for
materials.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

nikeman said:


> I'm officially in the market for a new back deck. I'm thinking it will be 15' out from house and 30' across the house. Now can you guys tell me if I'm crazy to think I can have this done for $2-3k for materials and labor? I would like a set of stairs on both sides also.
> On


Depends what part of VA you're in, but you're probably looking at 2-3k for the price of MATERIALS. That's with pressure treated everything. Composites and the price goes up VERY quickly. So to answer your question, you don't have a chance in hell of having it all done for basically the price of materials.. :no:

You said you ALSO want 2 staircases? Stairs take more time/work, and many contractors want 1-2k for each set of stairs coming down from the 2nd story, that's in my limited experience and based on my area (suburb of DC, not cheap).

For your price the only option is DIY. Asking how "hard" a deck to build is entirely relative. It's a 2+ person job, so you need an extra hand. Also, how familiar/proficient are you with home improvement things? Some people I know call hanging blinds and curtains "home improvement" so it all depends on your skill.  I certainly could have built my deck myself, but simply don't have the time.

Edit: Another piece of advice.. If you're going composite do your research. Trex = junk imo. I have yet to see one after many years that doesn't develop spots due to mold growth from the inside. The best "composites" aren't really composite but just pvc/plastic. Those are the only true "no maintenance" decks I've seen, but the materials are VERY expensive.

Edit2: Here's my local county's code for deck building (yours is likely very similar). http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/publications/decks/details.pdf Just read through that doc it basically explains how to do everything for a single level deck w/ or w/o stairs.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks. I think I could do it myself but I would worry about attaching it to the house the right way. If I use all wood how hard is it to maintain? My current deck is all wood and a lot of the boards are warping and twisting so bad that the nails get pulled out. I'm not sure it's even pressure treated wood because of that. I'm sure it never got maintained and I have never messed with it in the 2 years I have lived in the house because I have always planned on replacing it. If I use stain do I have to stain everything or just the floor and guard rails?


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

nikeman said:


> Thanks. I think I could do it myself but I would worry about attaching it to the house the right way. If I use all wood how hard is it to maintain? My current deck is all wood and a lot of the boards are warping and twisting so bad that the nails get pulled out. I'm not sure it's even pressure treated wood because of that. I'm sure it never got maintained and I have never messed with it in the 2 years I have lived in the house because I have always planned on replacing it. If I use stain do I have to stain everything or just the floor and guard rails?


Honestly, attaching the ledger board is a piece of cake. Basically you just need to make sure you have a rim joist running along the outside of your house (or perhaps use anchors if you have brick), and you basically just use lag bolts to attach the ledger board to the side of the house. That's it. If you have siding you have to pull back the siding and add some flashing/etc, but it's really not that big a deal. I overstressed that same thing, the ledger board attachment because I was worried about water intrusion into the house, but I had to tell the contractor how to do it as he wasn't going to do it properly. Moral of the story is, don't depend on anyone else.

The key with a wood deck is maintenance. No question. Also, when installing the deck boards, use screws NOT nails. You have to pay contractors extra for screws because they're more expensive and take longer, but they keep boards in place and keep them from popping/bowing as much. You current deck might be salvageable. It'd be best to take good pictures and post them to get others' opinions on whether it's salvageable. Keep in mind, you also can decide to simply reface the deck (just replace the deck boards not the whole structure) if the structure is sound.

Regarding staining, there are many options, and I'll be staining my deck come spring time for the first time so I'm not the best person to ask. My understanding though is every 2 yrs though you need to plan on restaining it. There are some stains that seem even more durable (google semi-solid stains, they almost look like paint), but when it comes time to "restain" it might take more of an effort to strip the old stain. Do some searches on this forum for decks and you can read up a lot about it. Good luck!


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I would suggest taking a look at the American Wood Council's "Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide." This is based upon the 2009 International Residential Code. Your actual code may vary.

Check with your local building department. Many building departments in Virginia has a deck handout that will explain the construction standards as well as necessary drawings for the permitting of residential decks.

If you have brick siding you cannot (according to code) have your ledger board anchored into the brick. Again, what you can do and do per code are two different things. You can have an anchored connection through brick if designed by a professional engineer. At least in the parts of the country I have worked in.

I think you are looking at more expense that you realize based upon your $2000 - $3000 pricing. I'm not in Virginia so I do not know material or labor costs, but where I am you wouldn't get much if you have a professional build you a deck for that amount of cost.

Hope this helps! Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

The resource suggested by GBrakins is an excellent one. I used it when building my house. I would never consider composite materials. My brother-in-law in KS built his deck with them and has regretted it ever since. Whatever he used expands and contracts so much that the screws work out and everything is loose. And it's only two years old.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

If this is a single story deck I would not even concider attaching it to the house. Just make it free standing.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's a single story but my yard is so slopped that one door is about 4' off the ground and the other is about 6.5' high. If I build it free standing can I build it right up against the house touching it? Thanks for all the tips. Here's a materials quote I just got. I didn't get all the measurements I needed so this was he could get for me with 2 stair cases. He said it should be about right even without knowing all the heights.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

joecaption said:


> If this is a single story deck I would not even concider attaching it to the house. Just make it free standing.


You've seen my current deck joe. The wood is all twisted and bent around the hand rails and even the steps. It's pretty high off the ground also.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

that's why I would not use 4x4 posts as they tend to twist


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

This is a simple program I used to use that works pretty good.
It will come up with 3 differant views, a material list, let you design about 4 differant style hand railings, three differant styles of attaching the beams, change materials used, mine even came up with Home Depot UPC codes and prices.
http://bighammer.com/

You just use longer 6 X 6's on the low side.
You have to find out how far your footing comes out away from the hole to set your post.
The deck is built cantilevered out so the ledger is about 2" away from the siding. The decking boards sit about 1/2 away from the siding for drainage.
It would sort of look like this.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...D2F07C82B170BD538EA047476C54&selectedIndex=41


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

and remember, if you install posts within 2' of the existing dwelling the foundation (sonotubes, etc.) need to be as deep as the footings on the house. See Figure 21 on page 14

http://www.awc.org/publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks guys. Building it myself is a last resort. I have 2 or 3 guys coming out tomorrow to give me some quotes. I got one estimate for $3500 for labor and materials which seems good considering I just got a material estimate for $2200. Do you guys think the materials listed are good? Will I need more than what's listed. I like the idea of using screws over nails just because of what I'm seeing with my current deck.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes, screws are definitely the way to go. But be sure to use ACQ-rated screws. The chemicals in today's PT lumber will eat up regular screws in very little time.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Want to save some money, ask them to give you a price on just building the framing and you do the decking. Time is money.
Another way is to use ceramic coated decking screws instead of stainless steel. I like them better because stainless is a soft metal and you will get more cam outs.
Call Miss Utilty to mark the lines. 
Do you have town water and sewer?
If not there not going to make anything but Cable power and phone lines so you'll have to find out where your well and sewer lines are.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

The reason that many building codes now require decks to be free standing is embodied in the post by Newdoityourself guy. Most people do not know how load calculations are made, or how to apply them. Thats why so many decks fall down. 

How hard anything is to do is entirely related to the ability and experience of the person doing the work, and the adequacy and quality of the tools that person possesses. That would seem to be rather self evident, would it not?

So far, the composites show me nothing. Very expensive, and they deteriorate faster than real wood. There are several class action lawsuits against the manufacturers of these materials.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Regarding the materials list.. Maybe you guys have eagle eyes but I was having trouble reading it on my monitor. First off I'll say the prices look pretty good (cheaper than what I paid), so that's good. But, not sure if someone else mentioned it, but I didn't see any 6x6 posts in the materials list. I'd personally use 6x6's over 4x4's. Also, of course all the other hardware will have to be added.. nails, screws, concrete for the footings, hurricane ties, bolts/washers/nuts for the beam to joist connections, and probably some other things. For all the hardware and concrete you're looking at several hundred dollars more.

No question free standing is the preferable method. If your deck is currently attached via a ledger board to the house, plan on installing footings close to the house, which means a little more for materials cost (and labor).


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I found a guy who is affordable and he gave me some pictures of a deck he recently built. He recommended the vinyl hand rails and said they are not to much more than wood rails. He's coming by later to talk more.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I plan on tearing down the old deck and stairs myself to save time and labor. Being the the dump will not take all that wood with nails on it I was wondering if burning all the wood down and collecting the nails after would be a good option? What would you guys do?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here's my current deck.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

That deck looks nice, but wouldn't pass code in this county, and many for that matter. I'd double check what your code allows (assuming you have a building code) before building anything. Not sure if you plan on pulling a permit or what. 6x6 posts are required now over 4x4. Some may say that's overkill for a low deck but I wouldn't mind the extra stability. Also, the beams must rest ON the posts and must be fastened w/ through bolts. If you look at the link I posted w/ the pdf you'll see where the differences are.

Your dump won't take wood with nails on it? That sounds really odd.. that can't be right. PT wood has some nasty **** in the wood, and burning it is a very bad idea. I would call up your dump again and see what they recommend for disposing of PT wood. When people demo things they don't go and individually pull nails and screws out of each board.. something sounds off.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

That's what I thought about burning. I have taken wood with nails in it before and they gave me a hard time about it. Because I had so much they said something about me not being in the demo profession or some crap like that. It was a long time ago and I will have A LOT more wood this time around. My dump is a little retarded I think because they tell you to through EVERYTHING in the household bin. I have seen couches in that thing before, but they want to give me a hard time for trying to through a computer desk in the bulk bin without breaking it up first! When I go I get all my stuff out and I leave as fast as I can but with several truck loads of naily wood its going to give them plenty of time to hassle me while not helping me unload like I thought they were supposed to. Don't get me started. Lol


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Oh ya.. regarding the railings.. the white/vinyl railings are nice as they are low maintenance and aren't that expensive making them worth it over PT if you like the look. There are many brands and some are much better than others. Perhaps your installer can recommend one.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Also, he is going to use 6x6's on my deck since its tall. He said he goes by code on everything so I guess that deck was to code for the circumstances? He also said he only uses screws and a certain type due to the pressure treated wood just like you guys mentioned. He has 14 years experience and seems to know his stuff. He said he would attach it to the house with some sort of bracings instead of a ledger and using thick long lag bolts every 16" or so because its more sturdy that way and with freestanding decks the deck would start to shake eventually over time. I wasn't sure what he was talking about their but sounds good.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> Oh ya.. regarding the railings.. the white/vinyl railings are nice as they are low maintenance and aren't that expensive making them worth it over PT if you like the look. There are many brands and some are much better than others. Perhaps your installer can recommend one.


He did recommend a brand along with the caps and decorative footings to cover cut marks near the posts. I wish I could remember the brand name now because I wanted to look it up. It's the brand he used in the pictures.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

What is the difference between salt and pressure treated wood? Which is better for a deck?


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

Here's a good article from Professional Deck Builder magazine that explains about preservatives used to treat exposed wood. http://www.deckmagazine.com/wood/the-new-preservatives.aspx


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks! Lots of information here. I'm starting to get excited about having a bigger deck now as well as more confident in the people I have talked to about building it.

As far as concrete goes, will the fast setting quikrete work or is there another type that needs to be used?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I was just informed that my dad can get me a 10% discount at Home Depot with his government ID. What are your thoughts on buying lumber from them vs a lumber yard? I'v never really thought about it because all there wood seems to be warped and I always have to dig through to find good pieces. I'v only bought a few pieces of 2x4 or maybe 4x4 at a time there for small projects. That 10% discount is tempting though. Lumber yard charges $12.48 a piece for 16' premium decking boards and Home Depot charges $12.97 each(11.67 after discount). Any reasons to avoid them for something like that?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes....support your local lumber yard.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

the only time I'd purchase lumber from HD or Lowes is if I absolutely have to have it right at this moment and the lumber yard is not open! Wood quality is typically better at a lumber yard, and you'll typically find more knowledgeable people working there.

Just my humble opinion


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I guess I can get all the vinyl from Home Depot since its cheaper there then the lumber yard. Maybe even the hardware there also. There are bad reviews for the premium decking at Home Depot but their aren't many reviews which tells me the few people why took the time to write the review were just unlucky. Lumber yard offers free delivery also which is a plus. They also say they will come pick up any defective wood and replace it for free which I'm sure would be a huge hassle at HD.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Is this just stained to get this color?


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## bigchaz (Jun 28, 2006)

Yes looks like stained cedar


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

bigchaz said:


> Yes looks like stained cedar


Cedar=expensive. Lol. I was told to wait a few months after I have my deck built before I seal or stain it. I like that brown color but I also like the natural color of the wood. To many decisions and I haven't even filed my taxes yet!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

What will be the easiest way to tear down my current deck? Just pry bars?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Big pry bar, the bigger the better. Hammer, sledge and a reciprocating saw should get you through it.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm thinking it won't be to hard since its put together with all nails and a lot of those are popping out on their own. The steps might be the hardest part.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

got a chain saw?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> got a chain saw?


No but I do have a sawsall if I need it. Lol. Should be a good stress reliever.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Is there a stronger way to attach a deck to a house than a ledger board? If we go that route over free standing he mentioned another method instead of using a ledger board and securing the deck with long lag bolts.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Not that I know of. If its attached to the house it's a ledger. I'd be interested in hearing what your contractor has in mind.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

typically when I designed a deck using a ledger board I use at least two of these lateral connectors with treaded rod. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/DTT2.asp

These attach to the side of the floor joist and another goes on the side of an existing floor joist (1st floor). The treaded rod (1/2" dia.) then connects the two connectors together. keep lateral movement from pulling the ledger loose.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Ya Gary....I started using them too a couple years ago 
when the AWC put it in their publication. The local AHJ's
dont look for them as we aren't in a seismic area. I only
use them now if they ask for them.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

We have some building departments that look for them, some don't ....... some builders will put them in, some don't, I just draw the pretty pictures. It comes down to whether the ledger is attached in end grain or not (existing dwelling joists). That's why I won't design what I haven't seen first hand.

When the 2015 IRC comes out they will have some new info on lateral ties. One day the codes will be correct (I've been saying that since 1973).


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Only reason I asked was because the last guy that have me an estimate looked at how the existing deck and stairs were attached and he said they were just nailed into plywood! He said the type of joists I had would mean I'd have to build a self supported deck. If that's the case then its pretty scary since that deck could come down any time but I just find it hard to believe. It feels very solid when shaking on it and it was dark when he looked. I haven't had a chance to check during the daylight either. The joists under the house look like beams with plywood in the middle. Apparently they are called I-joists.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

go back to post #9 and click on the link to the Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide. That guide will provide you with proper attachment of the ledger and anything else you want to know about deck construction.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Are 2x8 joists good for a deck? Some use 2x8s while others use 2x10s.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

see Table 2 on page 3 of the Guide, I don't know what species lumber you'll purchase, or the span of the joists. Just look at the table and it'll let you know the size


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

More likly it's OSB instead of plywood.
If you insist on building this with a ledger the siding need to come off so Storm and Ice shield can be applyed to the wall to water proof it.
I'd use 1 X 6 vinly lumber as spacers to hold the ledger out away from the side of the house for drainage.
Flashing is installed up the wall and out over the ledger.

Also the sizes your quoting to build this are odd ball sizes.
There's going to be more waste this way.
Check with Fary Brothers lumber in Ark. they have pretty good lumber.


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## rualesbuilding (Dec 15, 2012)

nikeman said:


> I'm officially in the market for a new back deck. I'm thinking it will be 15' out from house and 30' across the house. Now can you guys tell me if I'm crazy to think I can have this done for $2-3k for materials and labor? I would like a set of stairs on both sides also.
> On


I think it would be some stretchable for both side staircase.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

joecaption said:


> More likly it's OSB instead of plywood.
> If you insist on building this with a ledger the siding need to come off so Storm and Ice shield can be applyed to the wall to water proof it.
> I'd use 1 X 6 vinly lumber as spacers to hold the ledger out away from the side of the house for drainage.
> Flashing is installed up the wall and out over the ledger.
> ...


Thanks. I actually just sent my material list to fary bros for an estimate. I switched the size to 16'x30' now to prevent the wasted 1' of each decking board. 30' is pretty much set because of my AC unit and me not wanting to build over that. 

Here's what I'm looking at material wise. Undecided on 2x8s vs 2x10 joists. 2x8s seem to be quite a bit cheaper but of course safety first.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

better check the guide for joist spans, don't believe 2x8 will span 16'


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

GBrackins said:


> better check the guide for joist spans, don't believe 2x8 will span 16'


Not even close... 

2x12 @ 12" O.C. to span 16' or go steel framed, but that'll cost you even more.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I was trying to be nice Robert and get him to look at the span tables .... LOL


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm going with 2x10s. Quote from lumber yard was $4,958.94. Mixing HD and lumber yard materials I'v cut it down to $4,536.90 and am trying to make it lower.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Btw. From what I was told by lumber yard and the guy building it 2x10 joists are up to code. I'm not ignoring any advise given by you guys.


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## pkrapp74 (Dec 16, 2011)

You also have 4x4 posts on the list. You need 6x6 to pass code. (at least, that's what I have read)


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

pkrapp74 said:


> You also have 4x4 posts on the list. You need 6x6 to pass code. (at least, that's what I have read)


I have been told by 2 people that 6x6s are for 2nd story or higher decks. I will look into it more.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

No way would I ever build a deck that high and that big with 4 X 4's!!!


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

2x10 at 12" o.c.? what species wood? not trying to be a pain, just don't want you having issues ......


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

joecaption said:


> No way would I ever build a deck that high and that big with 4 X 4's!!!


me either Joe .... :thumbsup:


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Btw. From what I was told by lumber yard and the guy building it 2x10 joists are up to code. I'm not ignoring any advise given by you guys.


hmmmm, look at the Table I posted and you decide. 2x10 may work at 12" o.c. spacing depending on the species of wood. If they are looking at the joists spans in the code they may be forgetting that preservative treated wood has only 85% of the strength of untreated wood.

They may be correct ...... I don't know which code you are building under, I'm going by the 2009 International Residential Code, and the American Wood Council's "Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide" based upon the IRC. The American Wood Council is the organization that specifies the standards for wood frame construction in the US.

Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

He going to space the 1' apart since he wants 30. This is what the code allows with 2x10s. Only thing I'm concerned about are the 4x4s. 6x6s are very expensive. Also if I use 6x6s how will I use the vinyl hand rails. Don't they slide over the 4x4s on top of the deck?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

No. 6x6 posts support the beam that the joists rest on. 
If you set your beam at say 14', then you can use 16"
centers and save yourself some money on lumber. The 
4x4s for the railing are a separate item and are
usually bolted through the band or joists or both. 

The pictures you showed earlier, of that nice deck 
your contractor built, that's not the correct way to do
things anymore. If I had built that here I'd of had to
tear it all down and start over. 

My advise....get a permit and make sure it gets inspected.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

What was wrong with that other deck? How much are permits? How do I get them? Do I have to pay the inspector? I'm already way over budget so its looking like I'm getting a small loan.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

nikeman said:


> What was wrong with that other deck? How much are permits? How do I get them? Do I have to pay the inspector? I'm already way over budget so its looking like I'm getting a small loan.


Call the building department and ask them how much they are. You need permits and inspections anyway no matter what they cost. 

You should stop worrying about cutting the cost down buy not using the right materials by guessing at what size lumber to use. Draw a sketch and present it to the building department and they'll let you know. 

Building the deck right should be your main concern. If that doesn't for your budget, build a smaller deck.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Joe Carola said:


> Call the building department and ask them how much they are. You need permits and inspections anyway no matter what they cost.
> 
> You should stop worrying about cutting the cost down buy not using the right materials by guessing at what size lumber to use. Draw a sketch and present it to the building department and they'll let you know.
> 
> Building the deck right should be your main concern. If that doesn't for your budget, build a smaller deck.


What he said. 

I said in my post a few pages back exactly what was wrong w/ the deck that guy built, especially for today's code. I've found this forum invaluable in terms of the information and expertise of folks here. I as well as others have posted links to the 2009 building code for decks. Do yourself a favor and read it over a few times, and you'll understand what needs to be done. After reading it over a few times, come and ask questions. It lays out EVERYTHING in plain detail in terms of spans for wood size, how the beams should rest ON the posts, etc. 

If you want to cheap out and build your deck the way you want to go right ahead, but I won't waste anymore time trying to help if you're just going to ignore good advice. When I pulled a permit I think it cost ~$100. Can't remember. Some inspectors can be a bit of a pita (in terms of sticklers for little things), but better to err on the side of caution sometimes than building something shoddy. Especially if you've never built a deck before, the inspectors are your friends. The $100 I spent was well worth it imo.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> He going to space the 1' apart since he wants 30.


better get 31. one to start then one every foot, so if the deck is 30' in length


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

nikeman said:


> What was wrong with that other deck? How much are permits? How do I get them? Do I have to pay the inspector? I'm already way over budget so its looking like I'm getting a small loan.



You need to talk to your local authorities for your answers as it varies in cost from one local to another.

second, if your contractor would build a beam under the deck at approx. 14' out, with 6x6's holding it up, you could use 2x10's, 16 oc, with a 2' overhang over the beam.

The way your contractor built his previous deck is not a proper or right way to do this. This concerns me and I wonder what else he does wrong.

By the way, a ledger is not to be supported by lags. It needs to be bolted to the existing house ledger.

If you don't understand what I mean by beams, I will attempt to find a pict for you.:thumbsup:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...40WUZuoOcfO0QGTkoGQAg&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAg&dur=111


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks guys. I have the guy drawing out a scetch for me to bring in and get a permit. Is the inspector part of the cost of the permit? I plan on bringing in his sketch and the materials list.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes, inspections are covered. 

Here there's 3. Footing, frame and final. If
you fail more than once, they may charge 
for additional trips to the site. 

Also keep this in mind. Their job isn't to 
critique your drawings. I provide CAD 2D and 3D
drawings that are very seldom if ever wrong and
they still stamp them something to the affect of
" all code compliance items are to be field 
verified" that means that just because they give
you the permit doesn't mean the drawings are
correct or to code.


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

Sometimes it's just better to hire a REAL pro (one who gets his own permits) then you know you have a good, safe deck that actually ads value to your home instead of something that may kill someone someday.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

if its only $100 and I do not have to pay a guy each time he comes out then that's not bad at all. If I knew that it would have never been a question. I have been told that I had to pay $80 each time the guy came out along with the cost of the permit which I thought was crazy. So, if I go Tuesday to get the permit and the Deck wont be built until closer to the end of the month or early March at the latest will they allow that? How will they know when I put the footings down? Do I just call them the day I do it and the person will come out the next day or something? Sounds like a PITA but also sounds worth it based on all the info I have been reading here and online. I just worry that the inspector will take his time coming to check it out and make us wait a week after setting the support beams and another week after finishing up the framing. All the code info I have found online and here show crazy pictures of decks falling down or even burning down! With my 17 month old daughter I want it done right. Thanks for all the advise and talking me into getting the permit. I will keep you all posted.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Permits are generally good for a year. 

Our permits include inspection. Yours may
be different. 

I call the morning I start digging the holes 
and schedule for the next day. Sometimes
depending on their work load it's the day 
after. 

Same for framing and final. Call early and 
make the appointment for when that phase
will be done. 

And I think Robert hit it on the head. Any
reputable contractor wouldn't what you
anywhere near this involved. Just sayin.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

guy that is building it isn't a contractor. He just has 14 years of building experience and is basically a buddy of mine. It says in the code book that a contractor does not have to build it as long as it is my personal property and I obtain a permit/inspections. With an inspector coming out to check out all the work as we move along I am even more confident the final product will be very good! Now who can tell me where to get the best deals on screws? Lowes and Home Depot are about the same.. Lumber yard is actually cheaper but still expensive. Are there online stores that have good prices on screws? I'm mainly looking for the 3 25LB boxes of the 2.5" deck screws. HD has them for $296.55 and lumber yard price is $260.25. That's for all 75LBs.

Also, I need a roll of metal flashing for where the deck attaches to the house. The lumber yard quoted me for a rubber flashing and its about $10 cheaper than the vinyl roll at HD. Should I use rubber? I have never heard of rubber flashing before.


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

Dude, you're missing it... I can say I'm not really a doctor but I know how to use a knife, would you let me near you to perform surgery? 

A PROFESSIONAL contractor is worth the money just like a PROFESSIONAL doctor is worth theirs. Hire right and you'll forget about your deck for YEARS... Hire wrong and you'll be here every day during the project and every couple months for years to come. Do it right, do it once.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The guy that inspects it will not allow anything to pass if it is not up to code and safe right? So why would it matter if I built it myself or if a contractor builds it as long as it passes the inspection? I understand the peace of mind aspect of hiring a professional contractor but from my experience they will give anyone a contractors license. The guy thats building it said he could get his renewed or something just by going and taking an 8 hour class/test and paying some money... Its my understanding that he was licensed and had been working for larger companies but let it slip due to the lack of work and the fact that he is going back to school for something else since their isn't enough work to keep him busy anymore. I believe that 100% the way these guys I have contacted for estimates practically beg me to hire them. I tend to have very good common sense and I would not hire just anyone. I'm not being a smart ass or anything, and I really appreciate all the help you guys give me. If it wasn't for you guys I would have just built the deck and when it came time to sale the house it would have bit me in the butt when I had to tear it down because it was not built legally or to code. I just want to set the record straight that I am not just another dummy although I have my dumb moments like everyone else.:wink: lol I would not by any means risk hurting my daughter by having a faulty half assed deck built. This is why I have decided that taking out a small loan would be necessary to get this job done after realizing just how much money I was going to be spending on just materials. I swear I had an estimate last year for $3000 for labor and everything! Its crazy how expensive everything is these days.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Just a few points I noticed; Deck footings closer than 5' of the house require same depth as house footings, not 2' of the house as posted (may need a longer post). SP 2x10's at 12" o.c. span 15'6", plus Lj/4 or 3'10-1/2" each end for 23'3" total. Sp 2x8, 12"oc span 10'9" plus each end OH= 16'1". Need blocking at bearings per local AHJ. 4x4's may work, check the attachment on page 26 in the deck guide... probably require SE though, and read joists- pp24.

Gary


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just went it to get permit and had everything but one thing. Apparently I have to have a 1:60 scale drawing of my entire lot including all existing structures and the new deck. Is this normal? How do I get this? They had a copy of my plot drawing with the house but it was just a copy and was not to scale so they couldn't use it. The clerks office only had a bigger map of all the lots and not just mine. Any pointers?


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

yes, a site plan is common in my area. if you know the size of your lot you can use a copier to enlarge/shrink to get your drawing to scale.

measure a property line you know the distance of using a 60 scale and write down the measurement. if you measure more than the length is actually divide the actual length of the line by what you measured. The you would reduce the size of the drawings by that percentage. If you measure less than the actual length then divide the actual length by what you measured and this will give you the scale factor for enlargement. 

May take a few passes to get it right. That's how I do it.

Good luck!


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Tape measure, pad and pencil?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

They gave me the copy they had and it has all the measurements already including the house I believe. I'd just have to add the shed and the deck I guess. The paper they gave me is the size of 2 normal sheets of printer paper. I am far from being an artist also. Would I have to include my fence?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Need a plot plan here as well, but never had any 
AHJ get anal about the scale. I usually do it in
cad from the original and just add the deck and
any other outbuildings and/or pool.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

She seemed pretty anal. She took out a ruler and measured the copy she gave me to see if it was to scale. I do not have cad, is there free software that will do this for me? What about my fence? It's just a 4' high chain link for my dog.

Will lowes or Home Depot make one up for me if I bring them the measurements?


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Will lowes or Home Depot make one up for me if I bring them the measurements?


a site plan? doubtful, very doubtful ....


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Here's what I'd do. Make a couple of copies of the drawing 
she gave you. On one, add the deck and any outbuildings
you may have. Take it back and tell her you aren't an architect
or an engineer and its the best you can do. 

Is the copy she gave you the right scale?


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

FWIW my county needed a drawing to scale w/ a plot that was to scale. They made a big deal about it being to scale (annoying I know) even though I was no where close to the setback reqs, so I had to just be careful when making copies of the plot I had that it didn't muck w/ the scaling. I guess I was fortunate that I still had the plots from when I purchased the house. See if you can dig up a plot somewhere.. if not talk to the county's office and I'm sure they can advise you. Good luck.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Here's what I'd do. Make a couple of copies of the drawing
> she gave you. On one, add the deck and any outbuildings
> you may have. Take it back and tell her you aren't an architect
> or an engineer and its the best you can do.
> ...


She said it was to scale but it was a faxed copy they had stored and it was no longer to scale since it had been faxed. It has a guys name stamped on it with a phone number. Thinking about calling him but its dated 1998 so who knows if him or his business is still around.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

edited out some things lol


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

u passed ....

that is a proposed site plan, not an as-built plan. your home may or may not be in that location ....


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I noticed that it doesn't have my house on there really. Is that something I can give someone to make me a drawing to scale? The lady acted like if this was still to scale she would let me use it as long as I added the new deck and any other buildings on the property.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm thinking I can just buy some grid paper and use that paper the lady gave me and then just measure my house, add the deck, and the shed and just be done with it. It won't be pretty but like you said before I am no architect and its the best I can do... Are those numbers on the sides of the long verticle bold lines actual measurements of the lot? The yard is .8 achors measuring that would be difficult without one of those rolling measuring tapes that surveyors use.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

sure, whether it is correct or not is another issue. you could makes make a copy of the site plan portion (without the title block) and just draw a box for your deck and see if that flies or not

only thing is you don't know where you deck is on your lot do you????


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

If that 10' drainage is the actual ditch then I can measure from the ditch to the house. I know its closer to one side then the other so I can measure that also. Then I just measure the house in feet and divide by 60 I believe sine 1"=60'. It's not going to be perfect but I can't imagine they would expect perfection. If so, who would bother going through all the hassle as a home owner?


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I can't say what their expectations are .....

do you have any property corners, things such as iron rods, steel pipes or concrete monuments that were set at the various points along your property lines? if you can find two (and know where they are on the drawing) then you could measure from them to corners of your house (measure from two property corners to same building corner). Then on your drawing you'd draw circles (from the property corner) based upon your field measurements. Where two circles intersection would be the corner of the house.

If you are able to locate two building corners you should be able to fill in the rest. More accurate than measuring from a ditch


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

There is only one marked portion on my property and its not a corner. It's just a stake that managed to stay in place. I know the stream is my back property line but its a good distance back and gets pretty thick with trees and thorns and stuff. So, I know where one side line is and I know where the back line is. The front line I assume is at the road but I do not know the other sides line and I do not really know the neighbors on that side.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

your property line along the roadway is not actually the paved portion of the road. There is typically a sidewalk area (whether a sidewalk is installed or not).

guess you're going to have to give it the old college try and see what they say 

sorry, can't think of anything else


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

Hmmm... If you'd hired a REAL professional deck builder you wouldn't even known about this, you'd be sitting drinking mai tai's on your finished deck and not have even know the stuff the contractor has to deal with.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

robertcdf said:


> Hmmm... If you'd hired a REAL professional deck builder you wouldn't even known about this, you'd be sitting drinking mai tai's on your finished deck and not have even know the stuff the contractor has to deal with.


Thanks for Not being helpful at all. I like learning new things so its not a bad thing this happened as far as I'm concerned. I wish more people would educate themselves on what I do so they knew what was involved and what I had to deal with.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Can someone tell me if I'm right to assume that the numbers on the sides of my lot in that picture are the measurements? 

Looks like the left side is 291.23'? 
Right: 286.2'
Front: 383.1'
Front corner: 43'
Back: 122.93'

Its confusing to me because there's no .'s.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> because there's no .'s.


I don't know what you mean by the above, but those are the dimensions in feet.

I can not easily read your photo, if you give me the radius (R =) and arch distance along the front I'll calculate the chord distance (straight line) might help in drawing it up.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It says R=383 10'

I typed it just like its typed. The number 383(space)10'. No decimal which is what confuses me


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

there is another dimension above the R = 383 10' (probably has an L =) I need both numbers to calculate the chord distance


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> there is another dimension above the R = 383 10' (probably has an L =) I need both numbers to calculate the chord distance


Looks like M=95.25'

I thought that was the length of the front property line.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

it is, but along an arc (curve) not a straight line. The straight line distance between the front property corners (at the circle) is 95.0'


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> it is, but along an arc (curve) not a straight line. The straight line distance between the front property corners (at the circle) is 95.0'


That's starting right on the inside ditch line?

Or going through the front ditch line I guess. So basically I can measure from the center of th ditch to on front corner of the house, then measure the house and draw to scale. The measure distance from house to shed and add the shed to scale. Then add the deck also if I had grid paper I think that it might not be to hard.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Can't I just make it a little easier on myself and redraw the lot like they have it but only make it to scale with the measurements they have labeled. Then just add the house, shed, and deck in about the right spot? This gives me a headache.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Of course. :wink: Whatever works best for you.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It is 1"=60' right. That just seems small. The house won't even be an inch.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

if the house is less than 60' in length or width then it will be less than a inch on the drawing ......

as penny said, whatever works for you


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Having a brain fart. To get to 1:60 scale I just take the measurement in feet and divide by 60? So 291.23' will be 4.9"?


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## bigchaz (Jun 28, 2006)

nikeman said:


> Having a brain fart. To get to 1:60 scale I just take the measurement in feet and divide by 60? So 291.23' will be 4.9"?


No, you have to stick with the same unit of measurement. 1:60 scale of 291.23 feet would be 4.85 FEET


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

bigchaz said:


> No, you have to stick with the same unit of measurement. 1:60 scale of 291.23 feet would be 4.85 FEET


If that's the case I will need a huge piece of paper.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

291.23' x 1/60 = 4.85"


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> 291.23' x 1/60 = 4.85"


Thanks. That's what I had but I rounded up. I drew out my lot so far to the best of my ability. I just have to measure the house and see how far it is from my property line. 

I didn't round up on my drawing. I know someone will say something about that. Lol


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here's what I got so far. I will draw yours too if the price is right! Lol


I managed to find the measurements of my house online so now I just need to determine how far from the property line it is.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I finished the drawing and they accepted it today. They even said it was a beautiful drawing. Lol. Anyway, permit should be ready tomorrow or Tuesday and tax money should be deposited tomorrow. Work should begin next week.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

glad to hear you had success!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I tore down the staircase that we never use today and it turned out that the bottom 4x4 posts were not even buried into the ground. It was just nailed to the risers! It was a little scary how easy it all came down. Who ever built them decided to screw right through the vinyl siding beside the door also. So now there are 4 holes on both sides of the door in the siding. I'm sure its done the same way on the deck side also. Need to figure out how to patch those holes to make it look good and of course prevent water from getting in.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

For my footings code says to dig a 16" round and 2' deep hole for each 6x6 beam. Then it says to anchor the beam to the concrete at the bottom of the hole. I am searching for the kind of anchor I need to attach the beams to the concrete. I'm finding all kinds of things on hd's website but they are all expensive. I'm talking $80-300 range for just one. Can you guys point me in the right direction?

Also, I saw these in the store and a box of 50 for $38 seems like a pretty good deal compared to other types of bolts I have found and they have washers built on. Do you guys know anything about ledgerlok bolts for attaching the ledger to the house? Guy asked me for 1/2"x6" lags but these things only come in 5" and there are not a lot of 6" options from what I saw in lowes and HD. 
http://m.homedepot.com/p/FastenMast...Board-Fasteners-50-Pack-FMLL005-50/202268256/


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Can't speak for Virginia, but here we fill the hole with
concrete to above ground level and then anchor the
post to the concrete using a Simpson "stand off post
base". We don't like having the post in contact with 
the ground. Posts last longer that way. 

Ledger locks are legal here, but placement and 
spacing are important. You should check with
local AHJ if they'll accept them.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

My county gives me 3 options for footings. This is the one I'm going with. Just not sure what type of anchor I need to attach to the bottom of the 6x6 to the concrete.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

in my area we use Simpson Strong-Tie ABU66Z or ABA66Z Stand-off post bases to connect the post to foundation. The post bases are attached to the foundation using a 1/2" or 5/8" anchor bolt depending on loads.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Yep...that's the one.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thank you. Checking it out now. Hopefully miss utility doesn't take forever to come out.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's looking like this is the cheaper option if those things are so expensive. Looks like 4 bags per post. So $243 compared to well over $300 using the brackets since I will have 16 posts.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

16! Haven't you read anything we've posted?
30' deck should have at the most 4 posts. 

Ok...maybe five.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> 16! Haven't you read anything we've posted?
> 30' deck should have at the most 4 posts.
> 
> Ok...maybe five.


Code says max spacing of beams Is 8'. Deck comes out almost 16 feet so that's 4 posts across middle and 4 more across front edge of deck. Then Im including posts for the stairs and one staircase will have a platform. 16 6x6s total for deck and staircases not to mention how high some will be . Have I actually over killed something? Lol


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

My phone is nearly out of juice. I'll
reread your dimensions when I get 
home to my laptop. 

If your deck is 16' deep, you only 
need one beam at roughly 14'. 

Beam spam is measured between posts on 
the same beam. Not from beam to beam. 

Sorry. Phone near dead.


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## Pittsville (Jan 8, 2011)

12penny said:


> My phone is nearly out of juice. I'll
> reread your dimensions when I get
> home to my laptop.
> 
> ...


Mmm... beam spam.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

So how your saying will pass code going by this?


http://www.gloucesterva.info/Portals/0/codes/documents/DeckDetail09.pdf

That would take away 4 6x6s and a lot of concrete! Ill have to bring it up when I talk to him again. It's 15'9" from house and 30' wide btw. 15'9" is Max depth that allows 2x10s over 2x12s.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It looks to me that if I have a overhang with a span of 12'8" or more requires 2x12s. Even so i would be saving over $50 that way. Now, someone told be the face board needs to be bigger than the joists. Just talking about the boards that go in front of the joists and on the sides. I thought that was just to hide the joists and make it look better.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

no...your joist span is 12'8". Fine for 2x10. With 3' overhang it gives you 15'8".

Joist span is ledger to beam. Youre getting confused.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Hi Guys, You may want to check your local code re: allowable cantilever. Some only allow 2 feet if you are over a certain height. Why, I have no idea, as physics does not change within 12 feet or so :laughing:


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

All it says is max overhang is 3'. So the deck will be sturdy if I span 14' from house and over hang 2' with just the 4 6x6s underneath and the ledger board? I'd use 2x12s with that span and still save $56 in lumber plus less concrete and through bolts! Not to mention less holes to dig. Since I have the permit already can I change it up like that? I submitted the typical deck detail as my plans so I assume I can do it how ever I want as long as its to code by that handout. I did tell them the square footage based on 15'9"x30 so I assume that has to remain the same or will the Inspectors know any of that?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

I'd bring the back back to 13'. That'll take 
a little of the spring out of it. 

You're on the right path.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> I'd bring the back back to 13'. That'll take
> a little of the spring out of it.
> 
> You're on the right path.


That sounds good but it just seems like the ledger would be holding all of the weight and to me that means all the weight is being held by the lag bolts.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

According to the link you posted, that
would be 60 lag bolts. 

If it makes you feel better, use carriage
bolts, nuts and washers. Basement 
ceiling needs to be open for this. 

I'd ask the AHJ if you need the lateral 
ties. They're expensive and here they 
only require them on really high decks. 
We don't have a seismic problem.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> According to the link you posted, that
> would be 60 lag bolts.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, use carriage
> ...


I plan on putting a lag every 4" so that would be 90 lags all together in that W formation if my math is right. We have had one minor earth quake her in the 20 years I have lived here and that was a huge deal apparently.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Just ask them. They may let it slide 
and you can save the money.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Is that this thing?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> According to the link you posted, that
> would be 60 lag bolts.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, use carriage
> ...


Also, I do not have a basement. I do have a nice high crawl space and full access to the floor joists. What are those hold down tension things in the last picture I posted?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Lateral ties. Keeps the deck from pulling away from the house.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Lateral ties. Keeps the deck from pulling away from the house.


What do they look like? I didn't buy any of those. I got 125 lag bolts today and I'm thinking that's a lot more then ill need. Bought all lumber and hardware today.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Simpson# DTT2z. One pair on each end of deck. 
One piece get nailed to inside floor joist. Other
one gets nailed to deck floor joist. 1/2" threaded
rod and nuts connect the two. Holds ledger to house.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Simpson# DTT2z. One pair on each end of deck.
> One piece get nailed to inside floor joist. Other
> one gets nailed to deck floor joist. 1/2" threaded
> rod and nuts connect the two. Holds ledger to house.


Thanks. At least they aren't expensive.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

For some reason only one Home Depot anywhere near me carries these things and its about 45 mins away. They have 21 in stock while no others have any. What's up with that?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Did you ask if you were required 
to have them? Not all areas do.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Did you ask if you were required
> to have them? Not all areas do.


They are required. It says I need a min of 2. It's very easy to miss but I'm sure the inspector will know.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just out of curiosity how do you install these? You just screw one to the house floor joist and the other to the deck joist? I can't find a good explanation. Home Depot has a "2 pack" but don't they work in pairs? If they don't work in pairs then I'm thinking I will buy 2 pairs anyway just for extra security. All pictures I have seen Show a long rod that connects the 2 but it doesn't look look like the Home Depot comes with any rod?

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Z-Max Deck Tension Tie (2-Pack)/100671103/


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

Simpson book shows how it's done. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/DTT2.asp Be sure to read all the details carefully, keep in mind that you need to tear up the flooring to nail off the joist-subfloor at 6" O.C. (and to prove to the inspector that it is).


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

robertcdf said:


> Simpson book shows how it's done. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/DTT2.asp Be sure to read all the details carefully, keep in mind that you need to tear up the flooring to nail off the joist-subfloor at 6" O.C. (and to prove to the inspector that it is).


Not sure why you say I have to tear up the flooring since I have full access to the joists from under the house. Can I just connect one to the floor joist on either side of the deck and connect them to the ledger? Would that not be the same thing preventing the ledger from pulling off the house? Just curious, I'm trying to learn so I can build my own deck on my shed later on.


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

nikeman said:


> Not sure why you say I have to tear up the flooring since I have full access to the joists from under the house. Can I just connect one to the floor joist on either side of the deck and connect them to the ledger? Would that not be the same thing preventing the ledger from pulling off the house? Just curious, I'm trying to learn so I can build my own deck on my shed later on.


You need to look closely at the details and the notes. The notes say that the SUBFLOORING needs to be nailed off at 6" O.C. to the joist that you are attaching the lateral load bracket to. There isn't a way to do that from below (without maybe an engineered design).


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

nikeman said:


> Not sure why you say I have to tear up the flooring since I have full access to the joists from under the house._ *Can I just connect one to the floor joist on either side of the deck and connect them to the ledger?*_ Would that not be the same thing preventing the ledger from pulling off the house? Just curious, I'm trying to learn so I can build my own deck on my shed later on.


The point of the lateral load device is to keep the joists and ledger from pulling away from the house. They must be attached to house floor joist.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> That deck looks nice, but wouldn't pass code in this county, and many for that matter. I'd double check what your code allows (assuming you have a building code) before building anything. Not sure if you plan on pulling a permit or what. 6x6 posts are required now over 4x4. Some may say that's overkill for a low deck but I wouldn't mind the extra stability. Also, the beams must rest ON the posts and must be fastened w/ through bolts. If you look at the link I posted w/ the pdf you'll see where the differences are.
> 
> Your dump won't take wood with nails on it? That sounds really odd.. that can't be right. PT wood has some nasty **** in the wood, and burning it is a very bad idea. I would call up your dump again and see what they recommend for disposing of PT wood. When people demo things they don't go and individually pull nails and screws out of each board.. something sounds off.


"I wouldn't build a deck without the posts resting on the support posts.
There's not enough shear strength the other way"


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I got the tension ties and bought 2- 2' long threaded rods which I think will be plenty long enough. The 3 footers seemed a little bit to long. I now have everything ready to go minus the concrete which I am getting the day we will use it. 

In the near future after the deck is completed I want to add gates to block both sets of stairs. I have seen a few online but they seem to all be in the 36"-42" range and one of my stairways will be 6' wide. Any ideas where to get a gate that wide even if its a double? I plan on leaving them open all the time except when my daughter, and possibly another child by the end of the year, are out there with us. We don't use our back yard much because its pretty much in the woods and poison ivy grows all around the perimeter. With this deck we can go out there a lot more often though!


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

2 36" gates would be fine. 
May need a center post for 
them to close against. Then 
you can open one side or the other.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> 2 36" gates would be fine.
> May need a center post for
> them to close against. Then
> you can open one side or the other.


Thanks. I saw pictures of double gates that latch to each other but I didn't see the right sizes. I will search again to see if I can find it. It looked just like my hand rails so it would be perfect if i can find the right size. Other staircase will be smaller, close to 5' I think, so it might be harder to find a gate for it. Someone online suggested using a regular vinyl fence gate which was a good idea also. I assume I can just screw through the vinyl sleeves and into the 4x4 for the latches pretty easily.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

This would be perfect. Not sure how it stays closed though.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

If you zoom on it, there's 
a pin on each one that drops 
into a hole in the deck board. 
You only need on side 
stationary though and a simple 
gate latch on the other.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Update:
Deck has been torn down and the 4x4s that held it up were only buried about 2 inches in the dirt with no concrete! The stairs I tore down were the same way also so I can't imagine how they passed any kind of inspections when the house was being built! I'm assuming they were just placed on top of the ground and they sunk 2" over the years... Kind of makes me mad since I was all over that thing with my daughter! Anyway, its down and hopefully the holes will be dug today so the first inspection can be done and out of the way!


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Good to hear on the progress. Ya, if you look at some construction it's amazing how shoddy some of the work is that gets by. I'd be willing to bet whoever built the deck did it w/o a permit, either the previous homeowner or the contractor they hired. That's one of the advantages of pulling a permit yourself (especially if some contractors don't want to pull a permit), some contractors may try to be lazy or sloppy, and the inspector will hold them to the code. It definitely gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling though when you're done with yours since your new deck will be built much more solidly, and it's amazing how even the shoddy stuff seems to hold together.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I am ready for it to be done. Its raining now even though its not supposed to rain for the next 6 or 7 days so its break time to see what happens with the weather. When he tore the ledger off from where the stairs were the metal flashing was not even half way down the plywood and water has rotted part of that to a point that it might need to be replaced! Theirs no paper or anything on it either which worries me a little about the rest of the house. I guess when you do something major to your house your bound to open a can of worms..


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

nikeman said:


> I am ready for it to be done. Its raining now even though its not supposed to rain for the next 6 or 7 days so its break time to see what happens with the weather. When he tore the ledger off from where the stairs were the metal flashing was not even half way down the plywood and water has rotted part of that to a point that it might need to be replaced! Theirs no paper or anything on it either which worries me a little about the rest of the house. I guess when you do something major to your house your bound to open a can of worms..


Aint that the truth. Murphy's law in effect. :thumbup: I've learned from home renovations that things will ALWAYS take longer than expected, and costs very likely will rise due to unforeseen things (things not being level/flat, needing reinforcement/etc). It's one of the reasons many contractors bid higher, because homeowners hate hearing "oh, we found something and it's going to cost X more." That's why I find hiring contractors honestly requires decent knowledge beforehand, so you know what has to be done, and any problems they come across are in fact problems, and how much is reasonable to pay extra to cover them. I have no problem paying extra if some extra problems pop up. I think the best contractors are the ones that show you the problem and try to explain what needs to be done, much like a car mechanic, so you don't feel like you're getting ripped off. 

I hate bringing my car in for a state safety inspection and having a mechanic coming back just saying "X is wrong or X needs to be replaced" without showing me the problem. If it's something simple like an axle boot or cv boot/etc, showing the customer the problem only takes a minute but goes a long way towards making them trust you. Good luck.

One piece of advice is try to avoid digging the holes for the footings and leaving them uncovered if it's going to rain the day of or before the inspection. Sometimes it can soften up the ground and the inspector will find the ground not solid enough and make you dig deeper and have it reinspected. Heck, even if you are deep enough according to code and the ground feels semi-soft (they use a rod to measure the hardness of the ground), keep digging a few more inches or so till you hit more solid ground. It'll save you time in the long run.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> Murphy's law in effect.


I've found that O'Reily's Law comes into play. O'Reily's Law says Murphy was an optimist.

Better to find it this way than from something collapsing ...... :thumbsup:


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I think it has rained pretty much every day this month so the ground is very soft as it is. Also all of the utility markings are gone and the red line went right where a corner post was supposed to go. Not a big deal since I had measured to include a 3 foot overhang so I have a 3 foot cushion but it seems like utility companies can see the future and try to screw you.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

every place is different, in my area they paint the street but place small flags in the yard (so as not to damage your grass). if you have any doubts have them come back out. don't want part of your budget going to the utility company.


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## CoconutPete (Jan 22, 2010)

It rained for 3 days straight after my footings were poured also, if nothing else - it reassured me they weren't going anywhere!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Holes are dug and inspector came right as I was finishing up last hole. All passed and the inspector was impressed with my knowledge of the current codes. Lol. We hit the water line from the well along with the wire for the pump that was right on top of the pipe. Had to move 2 posts over a foot which will make my platform 5' for the stairs instead of 4' so not a bad thing.










Also found a large knife over beside my shed that was broken and on top of the ground where I should have seen it before. It's a mystery where that came from.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I plan on getting the concrete today and putting down the 8" layer that has to go down before posts are set in another 8" layer. Can I pour 2 80lb bags in each hole and just spray them down with the hose or do I have to mix up each bag and pour it in wet?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

This is the concrete I got


http://m.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-80-lb-Concrete-Mix-110180/100318511/

I know the fast setting stuff can be poured dry and soaked with water but not sure about this.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

nikeman said:


> I plan on getting the concrete today and putting down the 8" layer that has to go down before posts are set in another 8" layer. Can I pour 2 80lb bags in each hole and just spray them down with the hose or do I have to mix up each bag and pour it in wet?


 
Not sure thats the way to go about it....never did it that way. The way it looks in the code drawing, you poor 16" of crete then set the post into it 8". Two different poors you'll have a cold joint between them.

Would have been a whole lot easier to pour concrete to a couple inches above grade and use post bases.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Not sure thats the way to go about it....never did it that way. The way it looks in the code drawing, you poor 16" of crete then set the post into it 8". Two different poors you'll have a cold joint between them.
> 
> Would have been a whole lot easier to pour concrete to a couple inches above grade and use post bases.


I think your right. Code says pour 8", set post on top, then pour another 8". I poured 2 80lb bags in one of the stair post holes so far so maybe I only messed up one hole at the most. It's more than 8" thick also and my hole is wider than 16" and right at 2' deep. Ill wait and let the guy do it all at once on Monday. I can buy a post anchor for the hole I put concrete in and do the rest the right way. Ill buy one of those anchors that attaches to the bottom of the 6x6 and screw it into the concrete once it dries and put another bag in the hole around it.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Is there a cheaper way to prevent the cold joint? Is it best to just use one of these and another bag of concrete on top?

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Z-Max-6x6-Standoff-Post-Base-ABA66Z/100375370/

I know quikrete makes something to bond new concrete to new but is that a good route to take in this case?


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

concrete is easiest to pour once and be done. adding wet to dry requires re bar to lock them together. How tall is the deck going to be? why exactly are you wanting to bury the posts into the concrete?

a lot of times I build the deck on temp posts (2x4 with a 12" 2x6 foot nailed to 2x4) and permanent post down to footing later, I've even had entire decks almost built before the footings were even dug- helps to know the local inspectors if building this way


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

I learned to start at the bottom
and work my way up. I have a 
friend who builds like you do, 
top down. 

It's funny when we have the 
opportunity to work together. :laughing:


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I am building to code and it says to pour 8" thick layer in 2' deep hole, place 6x6 on top of 8" thick layer, then pour another 8" thick layer around the post. It just shows a picture so at first I though I needed to let the first layer dry and put the post on solid concrete before putting in the second layer. I realized quickly that that was not right (just not quick enough). Now I have 12 empty holes and 1 with 160lbs of concrete. Lol. Ill just buy an anchor for that on and a 6" x 5/8" bolt. Then ill pour another 80lb bag on top of that.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

12penny said:


> I learned to start at the bottom
> and work my way up. I have a
> friend who builds like you do,
> top down.
> ...


I do not lose sight of the beginning stage but push ahead regardless. also to note, I build with the temp brace when framing flush joists with hangers, a drop beam works totally different because the footings are up under the deck( who wants to crawl under and dig those footings??  ).


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Don't you guys think it would be stronger to use maybe 4" of concrete below post with 12" around it? 8" of concrete just doesn't seem all that strong to me. For the rest of the holes I'm thinking 1.5 80lb bags in the empty hole followed by the post on top and another 2.5 80lb bags around it. It would be the same amount of concrete but since the posts will be a little over 6' out of the ground on one side I feel like more around the post will be stronger.

Will the posts have any lateral pressure once they are all set level and attached to the framing? If not then a thicker layer underneath would make sense to handle the downward pressure of the weight of the framing/people on that post. .


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Don't you guys think it would be stronger to use maybe 4" of concrete below post with 12" around it? 8" of concrete just doesn't seem all that strong to me. For the rest of the holes I'm thinking 1.5 80lb bags in the empty hole followed by the post on top and another 2.5 80lb bags around it. It would be the same amount of concrete but since the posts will be a little over 6' out of the ground on one side I feel like more around the post will be stronger.
> 
> Will the posts have any lateral pressure once they are all set level and attached to the framing? If not then a thicker layer underneath would make sense to handle the downward pressure of the weight of the framing/people on that post. .


you need at least 8" of solid concrete under post to hold the weight of the deck and people etc... diagonal bracing at the top of the posts where they meet the floor system is how to laterally support the deck. honestly, I'd forget adding any concrete around the posts- not a good idea for the most part because of the long term rot potential of the post buried forever.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Code says lateral supports attached from post to deck framing are only for free standing decks. It says all lateral support for my deck is provided by the house attachment. I may add the lateral bracing at the end anyway. It makes a lot more since doing the footings like they say now. But in order to pass inspection and have posts on top of concrete I'd have to have the entire hole filled with concrete and a preset j-hook looking anchor in place. 

How does wood rot in concrete? It's protected from the soil and most moisture right? Could I wrap the ends in plastic before covering with concrete? The old deck posts were only buried 2" in the dirt with no concrete or anything for 14 or so years and they had no signs of rot where they touched the ground all that time. I'm actually thinking about reusing some of those 4xs as hand rail posts since I'm using vinyl sleeves anyway.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Code says lateral supports attached from post to deck framing are only for free standing decks. It says all lateral support for my deck is provided by the house attachment. I may add the lateral bracing at the end anyway. It makes a lot more since doing the footings like they say now. But in order to pass inspection and have posts on top of concrete I'd have to have the entire hole filled with concrete and a preset j-hook looking anchor in place.
> 
> How does wood rot in concrete? It's protected from the soil and most moisture right? Could I wrap the ends in plastic before covering with concrete? The old deck posts were only buried 2" in the dirt with no concrete or anything for 14 or so years and they had no signs of rot where they touched the ground all that time. I'm actually thinking about reusing some of those 4xs as hand rail posts since I'm using vinyl sleeves anyway.


would be smart to add lateral bracing at the end away from the dwelling. you are correct in the house provides lateral bracing at that end of the deck, but not at the opposite end.

rot requires high moisture levels and air. if rot is so common in buried wood then why don't wharf piers rot? they will at the water-to-air intersection not below the water line. the reason? no air to support the organisms responsible for rot. if you have a concern about buried wood then wrap the post in ice and water shield (especially the bottom & where the post comes out of the ground) and use ground contact rated preservative treated wood. slope the ground so that water run away from the posts and does not pond at those locations. Also the building code (2009 IRC) has prescriptive design requirements for subsurface wooden foundations.

with that said I always install my wood post above grade with the use of a stand-off post base (the ones I posted earlier) so that visual inspections of the deck can be made easier. You need to perform inspections on a yearly (at minimum) basis to find potential problems and fix them before they become serious problems.

Hope this helps! :thumbsup:


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

I"m talking long term and codes are based on long term as well. when I build a deck I'm thinking out 50 years- that is about as far out as can be realistically projected. your 14 year deck was but a small time period in the over all scheme. if deck is over 4' tall lateral bracing is needed out on the ends, not at the house unless freestanding. posts buried in concrete should be left for fences only IMO and they need to be ground contact treated lumber.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Nikeman,

Installing the posts can be done many ways, and you will get different opinions on what people think is correct. I know around here many contractors will do as you first said. Pour the footing (whatever thickness/diameter), let it cure, then come back and mix a bag of concrete, dump a little in the hole, set the 6x6 post in the hole, then pour the rest of the concrete in the hole. The footing is what's important, and the additional concrete with the post is just so the post sits level on the footing and is held in place, but the weight is born fully by the footing. The local inspectors say this is ok, and I think it depends on the area/grading/climate/etc. in terms of how long the posts will last before worrying about rot.

The obvious problem with this method is it makes inspecting the wood near impossible underground, and makes replacing them more difficult down the road, but that's obviously your decision.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

All my 6x6s are ground contact treated. If this deck lasts 14 years then I will be happy since I probably won't be living here that long and I have been told that decks typically last about 10-15 years without all the maintenance such as stain/seal etc... I do plan to seal the deck every 2 years at least though. Everything is so expensive these days. Quality goes down but prices go up!

Anyway, as far as that one footer... Will a stand off anchor bolted to the concrete with a 5/8" bolt be sufficient?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> Nikeman,
> 
> Installing the posts can be done many ways, and you will get different opinions on what people think is correct. I know around here many contractors will do as you first said. Pour the footing (whatever thickness/diameter), let it cure, then come back and mix a bag of concrete, dump a little in the hole, set the 6x6 post in the hole, then pour the rest of the concrete in the hole. The footing is what's important, and the additional concrete with the post is just so the post sits level on the footing and is held in place, but the weight is born fully by the footing. The local inspectors say this is ok, and I think it depends on the area/grading/climate/etc. in terms of how long the footings will last before worrying about rot.
> 
> The obvious problem with this method is it makes inspecting the wood near impossible underground, and makes replacing them more difficult down the road, but that's obviously your decision.


My concern with the new concrete on old was that the newer concrete would be able to slide around on the older concrete because of the joint between them. Is that not something to worry about?


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

nikeman said:


> My concern with the new concrete on old was that the newer concrete would be able to slide around on the older concrete because of the joint between them. Is that not something to worry about?


In theory yes, but if your post is buried, you'll have 2' of dirt sitting on top of it as well which should help prevent it from going anywhere. Unless the post is moving (which it shouldn't), then this shouldn't be a problem.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

nikeman said:


> All my 6x6s are ground contact treated. If this deck lasts 14 years then I will be happy since I probably won't be living here that long and I have been told that decks typically last about 10-15 years without all the maintenance such as stain/seal etc... I do plan to seal the deck every 2 years at least though. Everything is so expensive these days. Quality goes down but prices go up!
> 
> Anyway, as far as that one footer... Will a stand off anchor bolted to the concrete with a 5/8" bolt be sufficient?


"When I see posts like this I wonder if designers of sky scrapers and Bridges say to themselves oh well I will be dead before the building or bridge falls so it will be OK"


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## House2HomeLLC (Feb 17, 2013)

So why don't you drill a couple holes and add rebar from the existing into the new. That will prevent movement even better.


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

COLDIRON said:


> "When I see posts like this I wonder if designers of sky scrapers and Bridges say to themselves oh well I will be dead before the building or bridge falls so it will be OK"


No, because they are professional. Big difference between how a pro thinks and a DIY thinks.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Coldiron, you have a point, and I agree that you don't want a shoddy pos built, but commerical construction that lasts forever doesn't use much/maybe any? PT wood that sits exposed to the elements. Everything is steel and concrete. Decks are wear items, since they're exposed to the elements/etc. Regarding how long a deck lasts, the decking may only last 14 yrs, but the framing should hopefully last a lot longer than that. If people had to redo their entire deck every 14 yrs there'd be a lot more patios..


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> "When I see posts like this I wonder if designers of sky scrapers and Bridges say to themselves oh well I will be dead before the building or bridge falls so it will be OK"


They probably do. Look at my house. It had a bad leak underneath and contractor put foam around it to stop it long enough for me to sign the paper work on the house. Now a crack in my foundation has been discovered (may or may not be because of builder). The house is only 14 years old and its having problems I might expect form a 100 year old house. It's a little ridiculous. Obviously people don't care about longevity anymore and only want a pretty finished product long enough to get paid. 

Anyway, ledger being put up as I type this and posts should be set after if weather permits. Progress is being made.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

What is that plywood looking material that is used in floor joists/band boards called? The joists look like 2x on top, plywood looking stuff in middle, and 2x on bottom. I-beam is what they are called. Anyway, how is that stuff strong enough to support a house? Is it reall as strong as old style thick wood joists?


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

sounds like you are talking about I-joists which use Laminated Strand Lumber (LSL) rim boards, typically 1-1/8" to 1-1/4"


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> sounds like you are talking about I-joists which use Laminated Strand Lumber (LSL) rim boards, typically 1-1/8" to 1-1/4"


Is this stuff really strong? With my lag bolts at every 4" a lot of the go through this material after the ledger board. I'm assuming this is just extra support because there are a lot of lag bolts!! Lol


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

lags at every 4" on centers? what size?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The lags are 5 1/2" long and 1/2" diameter. Code says to start 2" from edge and place a bolt every 4" in a W pattern.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

ok, so actually 8" in between top and bottom lags


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

The posts did not get set today since problems came up while installing the ledger (cracked foundation). He is going to finish up the ledger tomorrow and set the posts in the morning. There's a chance of rain tomorrow night and its going to rain Wednesday for sure. Will it be okay? Could we just cover the concrete with plastic for a day or 2? This would be a big set back. I swear it rains every other day around here lately. At this rate the deck may never get built and walking my dog around to the back yard is getting old quick on these cold nights. 
Should I just scrap it until Friday when its "not going to rain"?


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> They probably do. Look at my house. It had a bad leak underneath and contractor put foam around it to stop it long enough for me to sign the paper work on the house. Now a crack in my foundation has been discovered (may or may not be because of builder). The house is only 14 years old and its having problems I might expect form a 100 year old house. It's a little ridiculous. Obviously people don't care about longevity anymore and only want a pretty finished product long enough to get paid.
> 
> Anyway, ledger being put up as I type this and posts should be set after if weather permits. Progress is being made.


in comparison to the building materials that we have now compered to 100 years ago we have maybe 20 percent the strength of the old growth lumber used back then, and that translates to every piece of wood used in the house, framing - trim, cabinets, etc.... the only thing still the same is brick and mortar and some types of roofing. I've always thought that commercial type building ( metal framed buildings) would lead more into the residential sector but wood still rules.



nikeman said:


> The posts did not get set today since problems came up while installing the ledger (cracked foundation). He is going to finish up the ledger tomorrow and set the posts in the morning. There's a chance of rain tomorrow night and its going to rain Wednesday for sure. Will it be okay? Could we just cover the concrete with plastic for a day or 2? This would be a big set back. I swear it rains every other day around here lately. At this rate the deck may never get built and walking my dog around to the back yard is getting old quick on these cold nights.



if you are able to, put up some plastic over the holes that is like a tent and drains the rain water away from the holes. you will get seepage from underground water still but if direct water is re directed it isn't as bad.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just found out its supposed to snow Wednesday and maybe Thursday. Its a double whammy of wetness and cold so it looks like no concrete until Friday if the ground is not covered in snow then. What a way to start march!


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

hand drive said:


> in comparison to the building materials that we have now compered to 100 years ago we have maybe 20 percent the strength of the old growth lumber used back then, and that translates to every piece of wood used in the house, framing - trim, cabinets, etc.... the only thing still the same is brick and mortar and some types of roofing. I've always thought that commercial type building ( metal framed buildings) would lead more into the residential sector but wood still rules.


If only more people would realize this... Quality of lumber has gone to absolute crap.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

robertcdf said:


> If only more people would realize this... Quality of lumber has gone to absolute crap.


Anyone care to comment why lumber has gone to absolute crap? Is it just that we've cut down and used all the "old" trees, and instead are using younger trees for construction? I guess older trees/wood is harder/of better quality than younger/newer growth? I've heard this from so many people but haven't heard anyone explain why. Thanks.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I know that back in the day a 2x4 was actually 2"x4" where as now they are 1.5"x3.5". Same goes with all size wood. I'm sure that is a big part of it. Also, wood is treated differently now due to new laws and the old cancer causing chemicals or what ever that used to be used. In California everything causes cancer. Don't know about the new vs old trees but it seems like younger trees would be stronger but also more prone to warp and twist.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

nikeman said:


> I know that back in the day a 2x4 was actually 2"x4" where as now they are 1.5"x3.5". Same goes with all size wood. I'm sure that is a big part of it. Also, wood is treated differently now due to new laws and the old cancer causing chemicals or what ever that used to be used. In California everything causes cancer. Don't know about the new vs old trees but it seems like younger trees would be stronger but also more prone to warp and twist.


Wow, wood was actually its stated dimensions back in the day? You sure about that, just seems odd how they'd suddenly start shipping things smaller.. but stranger things have happened. I'll never forget the first time I went to buy some wood for a little table I was building.. I didn't measure it at the store and brought it home, measured it and it was too small.. I was like WTF?! :laughing:

Well I know the pressure treated wood for outdoor use is different now. No more CCA except for commercial use, and now there's mca/mcq/etc. My understanding though it the actual lumber is of worse quality and less hardy which is why it's less durable/doesn't last as long..?

Edit: I guess this explains it.. http://www.humboldt.net/~hrsp/oldgrowth.htm Older growth have more tightly packed together growth rings = tougher/stronger wood.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> Wow, wood was actually its stated dimensions back in the day? You sure about that, just seems odd how they'd suddenly start shipping things smaller.. but stranger things have happened. I'll never forget the first time I went to buy some wood for a little table I was building.. I didn't measure it at the store and brought it home, measured it and it was too small.. I was like WTF?! :laughing:
> 
> Well I know the pressure treated wood for outdoor use is different now. No more CCA except for commercial use, and now there's mca/mcq/etc. My understanding though it the actual lumber is of worse quality and less hardy which is why it's less durable/doesn't last as long..?
> 
> Edit: I guess this explains it.. http://www.humboldt.net/~hrsp/oldgrowth.htm Older growth have more tightly packed together growth rings = tougher/stronger wood.


Oh yeah. Before my time it was. I helped a friend rip out his kitchen floor and replace a rotted joist in a really old house (maybe close to 100 years). Those joists were HUGE! He went to get a replacement joist and the new one was so much smaller that it was ridiculous. I think he added more wood to make it the same width as the original. I had never seen wood that big on a house before!!


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Oh yeah. Before my time it was. I helped a friend rip out his kitchen floor and replace a rotted joist in a really old house (maybe close to 100 years). Those joists were HUGE! He went to get a replacement joist and the new one was so much smaller that it was ridiculous. I think he added more wood to make it the same width as the original. I had never seen wood that big on a house before!!



I've worked on numerous houses where a 2x4 was 2 1/2"thick x4 1/2" wide normal size throughout the house- that was their version of a 2x4 and those sizes lasted up to probably the 30's or 40's before size reduction principles were introduced at the saw mills. around the 50's 2x was down to 1 5/8" thick and has only gotten thinner over time as well as our overall wood quality being poorer and poorer. our knowledge of how to build more effectively now is not matched by the current available offerings material wise...


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## MisterSteve (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm enjoying this thread and look forward to seeing your progress Nikeman. I plan on taking on taking on a similar project in the fall. 

By the way, CCA is still used for residential use where I'm at in NC near the ocean. Nearly every house here is on 8 x 8 or larger CCA pilings including mine.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

If it would not rain for a few days in a row progress would be much faster. Right now the ledger is up and I have 13 holes full of rain water.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> If it would not rain for a few days in a row progress would be much faster. Right now the ledger is up and I have 13 holes full of rain water.



shop vac without the filter works to get rid of the built up water. after the water is gone scrape the sludge out of the bottom and get back to solid ground before your concrete. looks like dry weather for a few days in our area.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Shop vac'd the holes and got all the leaves out as well as as much runny liquidy mud as I could with my shovel. Some of the holes ended up having water seep back up into them but I figure that little bit will prob not hurt anything and might help a little when concrete it poured in. Shop vac worked very good! I was surprised how fast the bucket filled up in that thing!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

This is driving me a little crazy. I really wanted to see what my ledger board attached to but of course I had to be at work and it was all done when I got home. Looking from under the house all I can see are the joists seemingly resting on the foundation wall with that plywood looking stuff going across the entire house. I know there has to be some sort of band board on the house and its driving me crazy that I didn't get to see it. The old deck was attached to the house with nails and the nails weren't visible from under the house but the 6" lag bolts are visible. I'm sure it's all right but curiosity is killing me. What's behind my ledger and vinyl flashing?

Here's some pics. First 2 are looking straight up. I just took off the door to the crawl space. The last one is from under the house. The black is the vinyl flashing under behind the ledger. 





























Does that thick piece of wood behind the ledger go all the way across the house? Can't see it anymore after crawl space opening.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

In the last picture, the through-bolts (not lag-bolts) require a washer and nut against the engineered rim joist, *pp.13*; http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf
Or am I of-base here...lol, as they are not done. Though I would bolt/nut before joisting, IMO.

Gary

Gary


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sneak peak of progress.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I've peeked in on this thread a few times but haven't really followed it. Looking where you're at now I wouldn't attach your rim joist yet. I'd start laying decking from the house out and when you get close to the end figure out and then cut the ends of the joist and install the rim so you end up with a full deck board at the end and not a rip.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> I've peeked in on this thread a few times but haven't really followed it. Looking where you're at now I wouldn't attach your rim joist yet. I'd start laying decking from the house out and when you get close to the end figure out and then cut the ends of the joist and install the rim so you end up with a full deck board at the end and not a rip.


I can't. I have to have it inspected once framing is done before any decking is put down. The last deck board will be cut up anyway for the hand rails but I think it will work out pretty good anyway.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's supposed to rain tomorrow (again) but Wednesday the stair framing should begin. Concrete should be poured and posts set that day I hope. Then Friday after concrete sets stairs should be framed up and inspection can be scheduled. I have never cut or even seen stringers being cut. How long do they take? He will have to cut about 9 sets for the 2 sets of stairs (one with a platform). Is that a full day job? I know once this framing inspection is complete and passed the decking and handrails can be down in a day and the deck will finally be done.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

nikeman said:


> I can't. I have to have it inspected once framing is done before any decking is put down.


That's a new one on me...Never heard of that one before on a deck. :wink:


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Some places require a framing inspection, and some just inspect the framing during the final inspection. Around here, if you're building a low deck so the framing can't be inspected w/ the completed deck, you need a separate framing inspection. Regarding the rim joist, that's a good idea. Nikeman, you could probably get away w/ not attaching the rim joist by just telling the inspector what kwik said, but that's your call.

Stairs can definitely take some time, but like everything, just depends how fast the guy(s) is. If it's two sets of stringers + a landing in the middle + footings for the stairs, it probably would take the better part of a day.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

We are allowed to include the framing inspection with the final but I am choosing to get it separate just because if something is found wrong with framing it would suck to have to remove the decking and hand rails. You never know what the inspector will say. The first guy who inspected the holes was very nice and even chatted with me for a while and told me to look into the crack on my foundation. Not sure if the same guy will be coming out again.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

nikeman said:


> Sneak peak of progress.
> 
> View attachment 67147


 
Hope you crowned all them joists.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> Hope you crowned all them joists.


Explain. Still need 1 joist on each side and then the rim joist.


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## MisterSteve (Feb 15, 2012)

The crown is the bow or curve of the boards. The crown of the board should be at the top of the joist. They can sometimes be crowned or cupped so bad they can't be used but if you ordered the exact number of joists needed then they likely just used what was available. If who you hired knows what they're doing it should be done without question.


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## tjbingha (Nov 28, 2012)

I think he is just referring to placing the crown side up so that when the joists sag they eventually sag to level and not start sagging and settle even lower.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Pretty sure he did that. All the boards were pretty straight but some had some zigzag curves that I can only see when looking eye level down the board.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Pretty sure he did that. All the boards were pretty straight but some had some zigzag curves that I can only see when looking eye level down the board.



best is to take a 2x4 and slide it across the framing perpendicular at mid span. start at the edge and go inward, you will bump the high ones with the 2x, you can also sight across perp to the joists mid span and see the high and low ones. nothing you can really do now but rip the top off of a high one and scab next to a low one with another joist.


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

hand drive said:


> best is to take a 2x4 and slide it across the framing perpendicular at mid span. start at the edge and go inward, you will bump the high ones with the 2x, you can also sight across perp to the joists mid span and see the high and low ones. nothing you can really do now but rip the top off of a high one and scab next to a low one with another joist.


Using a portable planer is the best way, however even with all that work we would come back 6 months later and it still looked like crap because PT framing lumber sucks.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I slid my 48" level across all the beams and there are 2 that are low and maybe 1 that was a slight bit higher. The rest are as level as can be. Not concerned at all.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

You should be concerned Carpenter's don't build houses without crowning. All lumber facing the same direction.

Not good enough. You might be able to crown them buy looking from the end toward the house. No crown = problems in a couple years.


Nails popping, cracking boards, roller coaster 5/4 boards, etc etc. Oh and that level thing that was described don't work because it only tells the level of a couple joists at a time , you need the whole joist layout level not just a 48".


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

They are crowned. I looked down each one and its very hard to see but they all bend up ever so slightly near the middle. Looking from below from the side is a little more obvious actually.

I swear I posted this last night but its not here anymore. maybe I dreamed it.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Concrete for the bottom stair posts were poured yesterday around 2:30 or so. It rained pretty good for about 20 mins around 8:30 this morning. It was enough to puddle water in the holes on top of the concrete. I estimate the concrete sat drying for about 18 hours before the rain. Think it will be okay? It feels pretty hard on top but not completely solid yet. Those post only stick out a foot or 2 above the concrete. I plan on putting more concrete on top later on in those holes to fill them up more and to put concrete under the 2x that attaches the bottom of the stringers


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

It can pour/cure underwater...

Gary


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Framing inspection set for tomorrow morning. Will they still come if its raining? It's supposed to rain until at least 10am and then a 40-50% chance the rest of the day and Tuesday morning. I'll be at work so hopefully they will call and give me a heads up if/before they come. We shall see.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

You don't necessarily have to be there. However,
I think your contractor should be. I try to be at all
inspections just to handle any concerns that may arise.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> You don't necessarily have to be there. However,
> I think your contractor should be. I try to be at all
> inspections just to handle any concerns that may arise.


He will be there in my place. He was at the first one also but we were still digging the last hole when the inspector came. Lol


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> He will be there in my place. He was at the first one also but we were still digging the last hole when the inspector came. Lol



happens all the time, good to have the contractor there to handle issues found (if any) by the inspector.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Passed framing inspection. Today is a rain out day though so no work until tomorrow if weather holds out. Should be down hill and hopefully fast from here.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

Congratulations on passing!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

How fast do you guys think 1 person can put up hand/stair rails and decking down on a 16x30 deck with 2 stair cases and one stair platform? He's saying it will be done by Thursday or Friday but I know that once he gets going he can move along pretty good. I'm hoping he can finish up Wednesday or Thursday at the latest so I can have the final inspection done this week. If it wasn't for all the rain we've had over the last few weeks I could be cooking on the deck tonight for sure!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I also measured the stair framing and one is 46" wide and the other is 55" wide. I have seen 46" gates but I can't find any for the 55" opening. Closest I saw was 49". Any suggestions there?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Have your carpenter make them?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Have your carpenter make them?


I want them to be white vinyl to match the rest of the rails. I can make a gate out of wood but do they make vinyl sleeves for the 1x pickets and 2x top and bottom? I've only seen 4x4 sleeves.

I like this a lot but can I buy pieces to customize its size?
http://m.homedepot.com/p/RDI-Standa...-Rail-Porch-Rail-or-Titan-XL-EAG36/203896424/


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

So far it's been a decent day with no rain but the builder decided not to show up or answer his phone. Not sure what's going on with him and I hope it's nothing bad but I'm a little irritated because now I know for sure ill have to wait another weekend at least before the final inspection. All that's left is the decking and hand rails. I'm wondering if I can just do that part myself but I've never done it before. I know the 4x4s have to go up first but with the stair openings I'd have to cut the vinyl railings a little around the stairs and where ever else to make everything fit together. I don't even know where to start on something like that. Then with the decking, could I put one whole length piece on one side, and put a piece beside it starting on the other side of the deck? That way there will be a 14' or so difference on where the ends of the boards land. Does that make since?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Maybe he thought it was too wet to work.
Maybe had a previously scheduled appointment.
Maybe he took his poor old mother to the doctor. 
There could be hundred reasons why
he isn't there. I wouldn't fire him for
missing a few days.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

depends on your contract with your builder. if you mess up something and he has to fix it it'll cost you more. 

patience, patience, patience .....


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

We spoke yesterday after framing inspection and he said it was going to rain today and I told him it wasn't and he said he'd keep an eye on it. It hasn't rained a drop so he should be there. I'm being patient but I can only be patient for so long. If something happened then I would understand completely and would wish him the best. My pet peeve is bad communication. It's so easy to call or text me anytime. I'm not firing him for one day but now I will never know if he's going to work or not and I will have to wonder while I'm at work all day. 

Like I said, I hope nothing bad happened. I'm just hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. So, worst case scenario, how do I lay decking boards and cut vinyl hand rails to fit? Lol


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

You can only be patient for so long?
He just started it! Relax, enjoy
the process. It'll get done.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> We spoke yesterday after framing inspection and he said it was going to rain today and I told him it wasn't and he said he'd keep an eye on it.
> 
> So, worst case scenario, how do I lay decking boards and cut vinyl hand rails to fit? Lol


maybe it's raining where he is, I know it's raining where I am right now, of course it was snow a little earlier ....

not to be a smart *ss, but use a tape and saw if you can't wait for his return. lay the deck boards on the flat. :wink:

as long as it has taken to get to this point (this being post #253) sit back and pop the top on a cold one and chillax, it'll all be fine


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> You can only be patient for so long?
> He just started it! Relax, enjoy
> the process. It'll get done.


It's been about 3 weeks. He responded to me now so at least I know what's going on. It's hard to enjoy the process when I have to walk my dog to the fenced in back yard at 5:30am in the cold rain. Not to mention my wife asking when it will be done all the time. It's taking so long mainly because of the weather which obviously can't be controlled. When I start dreaming about it never being done then I know I'm getting tired of the process. Lol This is why I am getting irritated today because its a good weather day. Things happen I guess.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

GBrackins said:


> maybe it's raining where he is, I know it's raining where I am right now, of course it was snow a little earlier ....
> 
> not to be a smart *ss, but use a tape and saw if you can't wait for his return. lay the deck boards on the flat. :wink:
> 
> as long as it has taken to get to this point (this being post #253) sit back and pop the top on a cold one and chillax, it'll all be fine


Lol, since your the 2nd person to tell me to relax maybe I'm over stressing about it. It's like being a kid when you get in trouble and your parents tell you to go to your room and all your friends are out side laughing extra loud due to the fun they are having and all you can do is stare at them out the window. I want to go outside and play on my deck!


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

nikeman said:


> I want to go outside and play on my deck!


so go get a couple sheets of plywood and tack them down on the joists and sit on your deck ..... especially if the sun is shinning!

nice place to sit and have that cold one :thumbup:

if you don't use the plywood just be careful where you step, don't want to step over a joist and your foot fall in between them  "ouch"


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I actually started to do that yesterday but not for me. Just for the dog. Then I realized I'd have to put temp stairs down and it would be a lot of crap for the guy to move out of the way.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I can't remember if you guys told me this or if the builder did. I need to wait 6 months after buying the wood before I stain or seal it? I know the wood is really wet and almost feels like you can ring water out of some of it. I am thinking of staining a light tannish brown color but I want to do it right. Wood was delivered at the end of February so I'm waiting until end of August or early September to stain? I love the look of the fresh clean wood but I know it will all dry out and turn a grayish color like my old deck which was just ugly and I dont think any amount of stain would have helped that deck out.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Welcome to the world of treated Pine...There are reasons that it's the cheapest decking material on the market.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

So am I right about waiting a full 6 months?


I bought some solar powered post caps at Home Depot yesterday because they were cheap and had 4 stars on hd's website. When I got home I figured out that they do not fit over the vinyl sleeve and its made for the top of the bare wood post. I told the builder I would mark the ones I plan to put the lights on so he won't glue the other caps down. I think I can make these work by simply cutting out 1" thick squares off of the scrap 4x4 I have and screwing them to the top of the posts after all the sleeves and railings are on. The lights mount with 2 screws on the sides and will go into the 1" of wood I screw down to the top of the posts. Will this work? What could I use to make it water tight around the bottom of the light caps that won't look ugly but is removable?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Instead of making something I bought fit,
I would exchange them for something that fits. 

I'm like that.

And yes, wait for the wood to dry before stain/seal.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

And ask him to lay the deck boards tight. 
They shrink when they dry out giving you
the proper spacing.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Instead of making something I bought fit,
> I would exchange them for something that fits.
> 
> I'm like that.
> ...


The other light caps are $20+. If I can make these cheap ones work then I will be happy with that. It's not much work cutting 12 1" squares to save quite a bit of money. 

Most of the decking on the main deck are down and yes they are tight against each other. I wish they would stay that way. For some reason he stopped with only 2' left of the main deck not covered with deck boards. Now he supposedly is going to finish up that plus the stairs and small platform along with the railings tomorrow. I'm not getting my hopes up on that yet.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I went to Home Depot yesterday to ask about gates for my stairs. They said that they didn't carry any in the sizes I will need but they might could cut a rail kit to a custom size and put hinges on them for me. They are going to call me back Monday and let me know for sure. Each rail kit is about $70 compared to $189 or so for one of there prefab gates that they do sale but would be to big. Can't wait to see what they say when they call me back. They weren't sure how sturdy they would be if cut but I think they are designed to be cut because they have to fit it tight spots sometimes. I never knew Home Depot could be so helpful.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Wheres the deck pictures? We havent seen anything in a couple weeks.


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## harrymontana (Mar 1, 2013)

building a deck is not just a short term price efficiency, you have to calculate over time and yes can can buy treated pine, but what about labour costs and after a couple of years more labour costs on cleaning and maintenance, while your deck is just getting older whilst you keep on spending money on it. Therefore we recommend you to make a long term sheet on costs (20 - 30 years) and compare this with installing a hardwood deck not to speak about the increased value of your house.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Wheres the deck pictures? We havent seen anything in a couple weeks.


Deck floor is down at this point. I'll take pictures later today. It's looking like it won't be done today either so ill have to cancel my Monday inspection since its going to rain tomorrow and Monday. Maybe Tuesday it will finally be done but I'm not getting my hopes up until the inspector comes and goes. Been told it'd be done 3 different days now so only time will tell. On the bright side, I can walk on it and let my dog out the back door which was the biggest inconvenience during the process. Dog it happy! Lol. 

Pictures will be posted this afternoon. The part that's done is looking really good!


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)




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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Please tell me the railing posts aren't notched 
around the band and rim joists.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Please tell me the railing posts aren't notched
> around the band and rim joists.


He did. I'm waiting to see what inspector says. If they have to be redone then that's on him. Considering the deck was supposed to be done a while ago I'm sick of worrying about it. I have extra decking boards but he will buy the 4x4s. He's supposedly going by the code book.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Lazy inspector might let it go but wouldn't fly here. 
New code specifically says no notch on railing posts. 
I guess we'll see.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Lazy inspector might let it go but wouldn't fly here.
> New code specifically says no notch on railing posts.
> I guess we'll see.


Yep. If they have to be redone don't you think he could use an oscillating tool to notch out the decking boards a little farther to fit a full 4x4? Or maybe there's a way to make it stronger as is? Not sure why he did them like that. It looks good but seems weak. It'd probably be easier just to mount new posts outside the rim joist and replace the decking.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

I mount mine inside the rim and notch 
deck boards accordingly.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> I mount mine inside the rim and notch
> deck boards accordingly.


How do you cover the top of the rim joist behind the post?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

With a deck board notched to go around the post.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> With a deck board notched to go around the post.


So you cut a square hole in the decking board? I have access to a jigsaw also.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Exactly. But because the post is inboard, 
deck boards go all around it.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Exactly. But because the post is inboard,
> deck boards go all around it.


If this guy ends of quitting and I have to fix this myself or something it would prob be easier just to take the notched boards out, mount the posts outside the rim boards and just do a straight cut on the deck boards to the post. I'd like to do it inside so I can use the vinyl post bottom trim pieces I bought though. I just don't have experience with saws like that.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Lets wait and see what the inspector says.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Lets wait and see what the inspector says.


If inspector lets it go can I make it stronger? The more I look at it the more I feel like it will break off if someone leans on it.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Is there some sort of metal bracket I can attach to the notched bottom and to the rim joist?


Another angle


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

On second thought, the 4xs are notched flush to the 2 2x12 rim boards so there's no access to the bottoms of them. They are also between 34 and 35" high and min is 36" according to code. Not sure that will matter much with the vinyl installed though. 

Would it look okay if I cut end pieces off to cover behind the 4x? I'm not sure i have the skill to cut a square hole. Lol.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

if you need to cut a square hole purchase a multi tasker tool and a wood blade for it or drill corner holes big enough for a saw blade to fit through and sawz all or jig saw the rest of the hole out. for years a lot of the decks we built had notched posts ( 1 1/2" notch) and they were bolted to the rim band and the railings worked out to/with the 1 1/2" notch. never had any problems with railings not being strong enough.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I read over the codes again and found this. Now I know it won't pass final inspection. I read this thing 100 times and never really noticed that part.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It shouldn't be to difficult to fix this right? I'm thinking just unscrew affected decking boards, remove posts, cut new posts and mount to rim joist, put new pieces of decking down notched around new posts. Call it a day. There are 14 posts around the deck, 4 on platform, 4 more on bottom of stair cases. So I just need 11 8' 4x4s cut in half.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Just chill out until the inspector comes. 

Notched post used to be common place in my neck of the woods and I still see it done.

I've had inspectors that that were on top of new codes before I even new them and others that were just plain clueless.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

When you install the post on the inside of the rim joist you have to add blocking to support the deck boards around the post.
http://www.decks.com/deckbuilding/Deck_Rail_Post_Attachment


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> Just chill out until the inspector comes.
> 
> Notched post used to be common place in my neck of the woods and I still see it done.
> 
> I've had inspectors that that were on top of new codes before I even new them and others that were just plain clueless.


How strong is it though? If a couple people leaned on the same railing would it break the post? Could I add a long flat metal bracket to the back of the posts to make it stronger? Should be enough room in the vinyl sleeve to cover a thin gauge steel bracket I think.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

The other reason I put posts inboard is so I can bolt them to a joist, or to blocking nailed between joists. To me it makes more sense than attaching them to the rim which is just nailed to the joist ends.

Also, post wraps wont look right with 10" of the post sticking out of the bottom of the wrap.


Edit to add: The post bases/trim wont work with the post hanging over the edge.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Most of that flexing your feeling could be the rim joist twisting when pressures applyed. Add the blocking under the deck and it should stop.
Main reason on larger decks I like to use a double rim joist.
Did he at least through bolt the post, and not just use lags?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

joecaption said:


> Most of that flexing your feeling could be the rim joist twisting when pressures applyed. Add the blocking under the deck and it should stop.
> Main reason on larger decks I like to use a double rim joist.
> Did he at least through bolt the post, and not just use lags?


He hasn't yet but he's going to because I bought all the bolts for it and code requires it.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

As Joe mentioned,where the joists run parallel to the rim board make sure there is blocking in the joist bays where the posts are to keep the rim board from swaying from the vertical pressure applied to the posts, and/or also add consecutive blocking down through the whole bay. this is usually not an issue where the joists run perpendicular to the rim board and connect to the rim board. strong railing like a 2x6 help to make the whole system stronger as well.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

hand drive said:


> As Joe mentioned,where the joists run parallel to the rim board make sure there is blocking in the joist bays where the posts are to keep the rim board from swaying from the vertical pressure applied to the posts, and/or also add consecutive blocking down through the whole bay. this is usually not an issue where the joists run perpendicular to the rim board and connect to the rim board. strong railing like a 2x6 help to make the whole system stronger as well.


The side rim boards are doubled up 2x12 and there are pieces of 2x12 between each joist right down the middle. They didn't wobble at all even before the decking was installed.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

with a strong rail system and correct bolts used on the posts I honestly think you will be fine and lots here think the same. none of us are your inspector though?? call the inspector before you spend more time on the project and make sure what you have will pass before having to take stuff apart later. it is always easier to ask first and build second...


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

According to most building codes a guardrail must be able to resist a 200 pound lateral load applied at any point along the top rail. The code uses a 2-1/2:1 safety factor so the theoretical load would be 500 pounds. A guard post acts as a lever providing a mechanical advantage. With a guard post being 36" above the deck 3' x 500 pounds = 1500 ft-pounds (more or less) of force being applied to the rim joist. If the posts are not properly secured you can peel off your rim.

Research that was performed at Virginia Tech in regards to code compliant deck construction led to the numerous changes in the way we construct code-compliant decks. Here are some interesting articles for those with inquiring minds ..... plus Nike it will give you something to do and not worry so much about when your deck will be completed .... :wink:

http://www.vt.edu/spotlight/impact/2010-05-10-deck-safety/safety.html

http://www.dickseibert.com/Woeste.pdf

http://www.beverlyma.gov/docs/dm/Decks-Coastal.pdf

http://www.nadra.org/industry_news/april07_woodbits.pdf


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

hand drive said:


> with a strong rail system and correct bolts used on the posts I honestly think you will be fine and lots here think the same. none of us are your inspector though?? call the inspector before you spend more time on the project and make sure what you have will pass before having to take stuff apart later. it is always easier to ask first and build second...


Good advise here! But, shoulda been done right the first time.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

All true. The fact that it says in all capital letters "DO NOT NOTCH" where it talks about guard rails makes me not want to take the chance. If I call and ask I know they will say its not allowed. I'd much rather have it done right and no that it will pass. The one board beside the house has some extra notches to go around some wire the big metal conduit that goes down from the panel and under the house. That board I'm thinking will be a pita to replace but the rest might not be bad.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Would it work if I laid the decking boards down, traced out where the posts will go through, and use an oscillating tool to cut out the squares? This seems like the easiest and fastest way to make clean cuts. Why would this not work?


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

I use a jig saw...but whatever works for you.

Is your contractor "off the job"?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> I use a jig saw...but whatever works for you.
> 
> Is your contractor "off the job"?


Nope. I mentioned it to him and he said he called an inspector and he said it was fine as long as it wasn't notched to thin. They all have about 2" on the thin part so if it passes inspection I'm okay with it. I might see if I can strengthen it up a little anyway. Just for more peace of mind. Any ideas?


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

Do like Joe said and install blocks on the inside to prevent the pushing out effect.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Nope. I mentioned it to him and he said he called an inspector and he said it was fine as long as it wasn't notched to thin. They all have about 2" on the thin part so if it passes inspection I'm okay with it. I might see if I can strengthen it up a little anyway. Just for more peace of mind. Any ideas?



as long as the posts are bolted correctly and the rim board is braced correctly that is about as far as you can go with the system and the only limitation is the 11 -1/4" of available flat against the rim board to work with. The entire rail system is the key to making it all strong and locked together, start with adequate bolts through post into the rim and make the railings strong and that is the entire system...


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

hand drive said:


> as long as the posts are bolted correctly and the rim board is braced correctly that is about as far as you can go with the system and the only limitation is the 11 -1/4" of available flat against the rim board to work with. The entire rail system is the key to making it all strong and locked together, start with adequate bolts through post into the rim and make the railings strong and that is the entire system...


They will be 2 bolts staggered on each post going through the thin part and the 2 2x12 rim boards. They have to be 1" from edge on opposite sides top and bottom.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm not sure what your county requires, but Fairfax county requires the outter joist be tied to the inner joist, be it a rim joist, or just an outter joist. There is different hardware that you can use to tie the outter/rim joist to an inner joist and pass code here. One is a stud tie plate at the top and bottom of the joist blocking (inside and outside also), which means 4 stud tie plates for 1 piece of blocking, and another is a hardware that uses a bolt and nut I believe, forget the name of it. If you use either of the methods it should be very solid. Of course, notching the post now makes the weak part for you the notched post rather than the outter joist flexing, and there's no way to fix that short of replacing the 4x4 posts. Whether it's really "necessary" is debatable of course. I think you could have a basketball team run full steam at my railing and it wouldn't break, yet my neighbors old deck railing would probably break from just leaning on it.. :thumbup: Some would argue the current code is overkill..


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> another is a hardware that uses a bolt and nut I believe, forget the name of it.


is this what you mean http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/DTT2.asp


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Yep.. forget how many you need per code, but think for the rim joist you need one on each joist to the left and right of the railing post location, and outter joist on the inside and outside of the blocking.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I used those as tension ties connecting the deck to the house. One in each end.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

they are also shown in the Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide for post attachment.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Man...what we do without Simpson? Seems all they need to do is develop a new hanger/bracket and the code writers will find some place to use it.

Exactly the reason I put my posts inside, thru bolted to double blocking. Posts become even more rigid once you get the decking snugged up against them.

You do lose some space that way but Ive never had a customer question my method. And code inspectors never give them a second look.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Some of the posts have been bolted down and they are strong! They are being left notched with 2" of "meat" on the thin side and I have put them to the test to say the least. Lol

A couple of those are bolted through a 6x6 also which I'm sure helps.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Everything is done except the stair rails and the rail caps. All hand rails are up. I think I would have finished up myself if I knew I could cut the rails right but it'll get done tomorrow. Inspection set for Friday morning since I had an inkling that it wouldn't get finished today. I'll post pictures when I get home from work tomorrow. It SHOULD be 100% complete then.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

depending on the rail type make sure the hand rails are routed to smooth the edges if they are sharp edges and are splinter prone. I'd recommend routing with a small roundover first and then a few years later after wear has set in round it over again with a larger round over, this will help keep check of the splintering and you live there so doing this would work in your case if needed...


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## jardinier (Mar 27, 2013)

*Deck and patio*

I built it too last year...

Lucky time for price of the wood at this time !


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's all done. At least 99.9% anyway. There are a few posts that stick out above the vinyl sleeve that needs to be cut down so I can put caps on them. I'm guessing a hack saw will do the trick? I'm so done with the whole process that I'm not going to mention it to him. Final inspection is tomorrow morning and I'm praying it passes. I will be at work so I can't be here which sucks but it is what it is.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

One more thing I'd like to add are the pieces that go under the middle of the rails to prevent sagging. I thought they came with something but apparently now. What can I use?


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

usually just the top rail profile is used under the rail , 2 1/2" to the underside for most decks I built. if you have vinyl wrapped railing then use the wrap underneath the rail


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Holy Cow! 22 pages of posts for a deck? I guess they talked you through every nail.


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## pkrapp74 (Dec 16, 2011)

jagans said:


> Holy Cow! 22 pages of posts for a deck? I guess they talked you through every nail.


You should have seen how many there were for his shed behind the house.

Just looked....only 9


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I just k ow how to keep people interested! Lol


It did not pass final inspection because of the posts. Inspector said a brand new code says I have to put L-brackets on each handrail post and they are on now. Re inspection is Monday so we'll see. Seems pointless but I guess there is a reason.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Can u link to the hardware he wants u 2 use?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

12penny said:


> Can u link to the hardware he wants u 2 use?


I wasn't here during the inspection but the builder said he had to put l-brackets on each post because they are notched. They are just regular old l-brackets from what I can tell. They are behind each post and the top of the L is attached under the decking boards and into the post with screws. My guess is it adds strength to the posts so that they won't snap at the the notch. There's a good number of screws in the thing. I wish I was here for the inspection so I knew more but I will be here Monday.









Edit: maybe its am alternative to blocking behind post to prevent the rim joist from pulling? I have no clue.

Inspector also mentioned holes not being filled back in but he didn't note it apparently. I don't have the paper either. I'm going to fill them with gravel instead of dirt anyway.


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm not sure how much strength those L brackets add, but if that's what the inspector wanted.. I'm not sure if filling the holes with gravel really buys you anything, maybe someone else can comment. If you fill with dirt, it should help lateral movement though.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

I really wish I could have been here so I knew exactly what the inspector said. It's driving me crazy not knowing what all was said. I have to wait until Monday now and if it doesn't pass that time then I won't know what to do. I hope I won't have to pay for the reinspection which is another reason I wish I was here. Builder doesn't respond during the weekends or evenings so no point asking him really.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

How big are those bolts? They barely look 5/16".


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> How big are those bolts? They barely look 5/16".


They are 1/2". I bought them so that I'm sure of. It's impossible to judge bolt size on a computer screen accurately. You'll have to just take my word on it. Lol


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

asyoukeepitz said:


> that's too big for that bolt but it will guarantee not to let you down
> 
> ____________
> home reports


1/2" is the min required diameter by code for all the through bolts and the lag bolts holding the ledger up.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

Not trying to be a downer, but those brackets do zero to
keep a post from breaking. It appears they're there to 
keep the rim from twisting. I would rather have seen a 
bracket where the joist and rim meet.

And how did he keep the screws from going thru the top
side of the decking. I didn't realize deck screws came
that short.


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## hand drive (Apr 21, 2012)

nikeman said:


> Inspector also mentioned holes not being filled back in but he didn't note it apparently. I don't have the paper either. I'm going to fill them with gravel instead of dirt anyway.



final inspection should include area around/under deck being graded as well. Final means final, if it is not graded when inspector sees it then inspector will have to take your word for it which leaves a lot to question...


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Passed final inspection. The inspector didn't even look twice at the posts. All is done and the grill has its new home.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

congratulations! 'bout time :thumbup:


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks. Inspector said it was nice and joecaption stopped by and said it looked good. I was expecting the worst but it went well and the builder stopped by just incase. Inspector only stayed about 10 mins. He walked up and down the stair cases and walked around shaking the guard rails and the he was done.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

hmmmmm, joe stopped by? have to get his opinion on your deck, he's tougher than the BO


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

nikeman said:


> joecaption stopped by and said it looked good.


Well that explains why he only had 19 post instead of 35 that day. :laughing:

All kidding aside... CONGRATULATIONS. :thumbsup:

So what's next nikeman???


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

kwikfishron said:


> Well that explains why he only had 19 post instead of 35 that day. :laughing:
> 
> All kidding aside... CONGRATULATIONS. :thumbsup:
> 
> So what's next nikeman???


Next is putting gravel down under and around the deck and building gates. I actually have a gate made but I need longer screws to put it together. I'm not very skilled with my miter saw but I think I did pretty good. Some of the balusters are a tiny bit shorter then the rest but other than that it should look good when completed. I'll probably start a thread on the gates eventually. I need ideas on how to prevent the balusters from spinning or do I even have to worry about that when using screws?


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## no1hustler (Aug 11, 2010)

No final pics?


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## robertcdf (Nov 12, 2005)

no1hustler said:


> No final pics?


After 23 pages you'd think we'd get some huh?


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here ya go. First pic is the gate. It's not put together yet so I know it's not straight. I'm sure someone will comment on that right away if I don't say something. Lol Also, I still have to trim down some of the posts and put the light caps on them


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## NewHomeDIYGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

Looks good! That top picture a gate you're making for the stairs? I need to make/buy one my deck as well.. Gotta add that to my to do list..


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

NewHomeDIYGuy said:


> Looks good! That top picture a gate you're making for the stairs? I need to make/buy one my deck as well.. Gotta add that to my to do list..


Thanks, and yes it's for my smaller staircase and is just a test run. If it works out good I'm going to build a double gate just like it for the other stair case. My cuts aren't perfect but I'm hoping its close enough to fit together. I'll find out in a couple hours when my daughter naps.


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just an interesting thing I learned. I was told they they are working to change the code so that the handrail posts have to be 4x6! How expensive would that be to put vinyl on? Loo


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

if it becomes code then manufacturer's will make 'em or lose business


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## calrsen (Jun 14, 2013)

12penny said:


> Not trying to be a downer, but those brackets do zero to
> keep a post from breaking. It appears they're there to
> keep the rim from twisting. I would rather have seen a
> bracket where the joist and rim meet.
> ...



i have a question which is better for deck building, I'm planning to build one , can you give some advice of what to use is it L-brackets or I-brackets please help me

______________
Cheltenham


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## nikeman (Nov 8, 2010)

calrsen said:


> i have a question which is better for deck building, I'm planning to build one , can you give some advice of what to use is it L-brackets or I-brackets please help me
> 
> ______________
> Cheltenham


If your talking about the hand rail posts you shouldn't really need brackets. Just don't cut the posts and bolt them behind or infront of the rim joist.


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