# Large Porcelain Tiles for Shower Walls



## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am at the point of starting to install a walkin shower to replace the tub in our small bathroom. It has been a while since I have done tile and there are so many new products on the market that I haven't even heard of so I am needing help and have a ton of questions.

We want to install 12X12 Porcelain tiles on our shower walls. I am using a factory composite shower base, mainly because I can't get down on the floor very well anymore. I want to run the wall tiles on a 45 degree angle and we will have a tumbled marble border in the walls. Is this a bad idea or will it work?

I am using 1/2" Dur-rock with RedGard water proofing, I am using fiberglass tape for the joints of the Dur-rock. What grid should the screws be on the Dur-rock?
Another question is, how good is Mapei modified thinset and Mapei grout. Will this work with Porclain. 

I have unsanded grout as I plan to have a 1/8" grout line or should I go with a sanded grout with a 1/4" grout line?

Another question, we want glass shower doors, will the doors mount on the tile or the wall with the tile butting the glass door trim behind. The tile is going from shower base to ceiling.

I have been reading on the forum and have seen some mistakes I would have made had I not read here. I appreciate any help I can get.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Mapie makes good setting materials---and grout--let us know what exact one you are considering--I usually use white thinset--much easier to clean the squeeze out.

door is mounted to the tile---hopefully you have a stud in line with the door---easier to hang the door--but you can work around a missing stud and attach right to the tile,

Diagonal on a wall adds a challenge--your cuts need to be tight--1/8 inch where the walls meet--

Often it is easiest to lay out the tile on the floor---and transfer the wall measurements to the layed out tile---like a sheet of plywood---

Spacers are your choice--I often use 3/16" with 12x12--1/8 is a little small and any lippage will be very obvious.

Back buttering the porcelain on a wall is a good idea---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Mapie makes good setting materials---and grout--let us know what exact one you are considering--I usually use white thinset--much easier to clean the squeeze out.
> 
> door is mounted to the tile---hopefully you have a stud in line with the door---easier to hang the door--but you can work around a missing stud and attach right to the tile,
> 
> ...


Mike, the thinset is Mapei Ultraflex with Polymer, white.

I will be sure to put a double stud where the shower door mounts, that is a good idea.

I will be sure to back butter. 

What size trowel teeth do I need to use. The Porcelain is 1/4 inch, I think, it may be thicker, I will check to see.

Can I use unsanded grout with a 3/16 grout line?

I like the idea of laying out the tiles on the floor first. 

The shower base has supports at different places on the bottom of the base, should I bed the base in anything or will it be OK on the subfloor?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

1/4 x3/8/x/1/4 will do---

3/16" requires sanded grout---1/8" is okay for unsanded although some shrinkage can occur so be careful not to over wipe the grout--

I usually bed the pan in masons mortar--I'd need to see the pan to tell you not to bother--I always have set the things with mortar.

If you are still in the framing stage---add wide blocking for future safety grab rails---they never seem to fall on a stud--and how would you know where a stud is after tiling?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, I will take the unsanded grout back and get the sanded. Judy said she didn't want the tile run on a 45 degree after all so that will sure make it easier.

On storing the Durock, can I stand it on edge, I really don't have a good place I can lay it flat in the house. Our house is really small but that is all we need. 

I will be sure to use blocking where the grab bars will go, we are at the point now that we really do need them. I got a feeling this is going to take a long time to complete. I just know some of the joists will need replacing.

I hope to be able to install the base and use it while doing the rest of the walls. I will put plastic up so the walls and things won't get wet when we take a shower.

I will take a picture of the base and post it a little later. When we bought the shower valve and head we had a hard time understanding why the valve and shower head was $24 higher than the same thing but with the tub spout. The valve we have looks exactly the same as the tub set, it has the opening at the bottom for the tub spout. The fellow there just said Delta makes the price, we don't. I said thank you, that was very helpful.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I just read the instruction PDF and it says the Durock can not be stored on edge. I have a shed but it gets very hot in there and the Durock will be in there maybe three weeks or so, the best I figure. Will the heat hurt the Durock and how long after I hang it should I let it acclimate before applying the Redguard?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Jim,

It's best to store the boards flat, but I've broken that rule many times, no problem. Try to stand them as vertical as possible, maybe a partial sheet of ply or a board behind them so they don't bow. 

I would use sanded grout even with 1/8" gaps. Some brands of sanded can even go 1/16". I think you get a better joint, looks better and easier too. I recommend min. 3/16 too unless it's really high quality tile. If you got it at one of the big boxes, stay with 3/16 or 1/4". Was this 12x12 tile $2-3 or was it $5 and up? 

Thank goodness for Judy, all diagonal would be no fun. 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Jim,
> 
> It's best to store the boards flat, but I've broken that rule many times, no problem. Try to stand them as vertical as possible, maybe a partial sheet of ply or a board behind them so they don't bow.
> 
> ...


Jaz, it isn't the high dollar porcelain so I'll go with a 1/4 inch joint, I will exchange the unsanded for the sanded grout.

I carried the Durock back out to the storage and laid it flat, it does get very hot out there but hopefully it will acclimate in two days after it is hung. Do I need a backer for the Durock or just screw it to the studs?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

If you're applying a surface membrane, screw the Durock to the studs with no plastic or tarpaper. Using a surface membrane is the best way. Heat will not affect the board, you'll be fine.

Jaz


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Jim--If you water proof it correctly--you can use the shower until you get the tile set--after all.it's waterproofed---

As to the mixer valve---if the tub valve was cheaper than the shower valve---you could have used the tub valve---the brass plug must be made with gold--the valves are the same---I have several extra tub spouts thanks to the goofy pricing.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> If you're applying a surface membrane, screw the Durock to the studs with no plastic or tarpaper. Using a surface membrane is the best way. Heat will not affect the board, you'll be fine.
> 
> Jaz


Thank you Jaz, I really appreciate you.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Jim--If you water proof it correctly--you can use the shower until you get the tile set--after all.it's waterproofed---
> 
> As to the mixer valve---if the tub valve was cheaper than the shower valve---you could have used the tub valve---the brass plug must be made with gold--the valves are the same---I have several extra tub spouts thanks to the goofy pricing.


I didn't think of that but you are right, it will be waterproof.

That is just the craziest thing I have heard of, we had to pay $24 for them not to put the spout in the box and they didn't even give us a plug for it. It is just as well, I plan to put a handycap handheld sprayer at a built in bench so I can use the tub outlet for the sprayer, all I will need is a two way valve, I think. I may need two two way valves, I need to think on that one for a while.

I checked online yesterday for one of the slide bar type hand held sprayers and thought I had found one but it turned out to be too good to be true, it was all plastic.

Since I will need to run extra pipe back to the sprayer, would you run the pipe under the shower base laying on top of the floor or through the wall, which is exterior, or maybe under the floor?

Thanks Mike.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

jiju1943 said:


> I am using 1/2" Dur-rock with RedGard water proofing, I am using fiberglass tape for the joints of the Dur-rock...
> ...I have been reading on the forum and have seen some mistakes I would have made had I not read here. I appreciate any help I can get.


Been there, done that. One trick I learned after the fact was to wet the durrock with water just before taping the seams. I didn't and the CBU sucked all the moisture out of the thinset.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

If you properly caulk the bottom and apply surface waterproofing, you can use the shower without tiles. BUT, be sure you clean the Durock before tiling. Shampoo, cream rinse, soap film and body oils are not adhesive friendly, you know. Do you have a basement?

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> If you properly caulk the bottom and apply surface waterproofing, you can use the shower without tiles. BUT, be sure you clean the Durock before tiling. Shampoo, cream rinse, soap film and body oils are not adhesive friendly, you know. Do you have a basement?
> 
> Jaz


That is good to know Jaz, I appreciate it. No we don't have a basement we have a crawl space.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Blondesense said:


> Been there, done that. One trick I learned after the fact was to wet the durrock with water just before taping the seams. I didn't and the CBU sucked all the moisture out of the thinset.


Do you think I should dampen the Durock before tiling also?


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

I back-buttered all my tiles, so I didn't notice the same problem setting the tiles. I assumed it was more of an issue taping the seams because with the minimal amount of thinset used it dries out much easier.
Perhaps Jaz will help us out here, I really don't know for sure.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I've never dampened Durrock before tiling---I have heard of folks doing that with Hardi backer--I don't use that product myself--

Jim, You will be sealing the rock with Redguard---so the issue will not apply to you any way---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> I've never dampened Durrock before tiling---I have heard of folks doing that with Hardi backer--I don't use that product myself--
> 
> Jim, You will be sealing the rock with Redguard---so the issue will not apply to you any way---


For crying out loud, I am really thinking aren't I, man, this getting old stuff is for the birds. Thanks for keeping me straight buddy.


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## Blondesense (Sep 23, 2008)

My bad. Mike, you're right, I did use hardiebacker not durrock. But you tape the seams before you appy Redgard or whatever.
I don't know if durrock is as..., well, can I say sucky?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Hardi sucks out the juice--I've never had that problem with Durrock


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Well I tore into the wall for adding the half bath today and my grandson and I picked up literally a large coffee can full to the top of used razor blades someone had trashed down inside the wall and of all things, there are two old galvanized pipes right where I plan to put the linen closet door. 

We have the old three tower electric heat and I plan to take it out and hopefully get new heat before next winter.

It looks like I may have to cantilever the outside bath wall by about 10-12 inches as we are getting mighty close on space in there, I guess we will see later.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

I was thinking you could make a temporary shower with plastic over a floor drain. You could actually do that outside too in the right environmen

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> I was thinking you could make a temporary shower with plastic over a floor drain. You could actually do that outside too in the right environmen
> 
> Jaz


Jaz I have been thinking how I might be able to do that, I thought about installing a 2 inch drain line to the little sink that will be in the half bath, I could use the old shower fixture for the temporary shower. Come to think of it, we have a small shower tent that we used when we built a little teardrop camper a few years ago. The little tent is to the left of the little camper in the picture. I am going to give it a try and see if it will work.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

In the case of a laundry room, you just hang plastic and use a garden hose attached to the laundry tub.

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> In the case of a laundry room, you just hang plastic and use a garden hose attached to the laundry tub.
> 
> Jaz


That would sure work but our house is so small we don't have room for one of the laundry room sinks. That is a good idea though.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I finally got started on the bathroom tear out today. A few things got in the way of the bath makeover.:whistling2: I did get a little torn out today and found as I thought, quite a bit of rot in one of the walls so far. I also got the roof to leaking some way. 

I am trying to do the tear out systematically so we don't have to be without the tub/shower for too long . I plan to do the plumbing first and leave the tub in place until the sheetrock has been removed around the tub. Hopefully there won't be much needing replacing. 

We want to have a seat in the shower but we want to be able to remove it or fold it up so it will be easy to clean. We plan to use the hand held at the seat because we have to sit to shower at times. We want one of the rain type fixtures over head then a regular shower where the shower is now. I have all the heads except for the rain one. Will I need a three way valve or a four way valve for this set up.

I plan to drop the ceiling about 3 1/2 inches or so over the shower to run the pipes through, or should I make the ceiling lower for the overhead shower? Hopefully we plan to use T&G Western Cedar on the ceiling. Should I seal the cedar totally top, ends and bottom or not seal it at all. I will try to get some pictures tomorrow.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I'd seal all surfaces on the cedar----as to lowering the ceiling---how high is it now? Will the rain head be at a comfortable height?

Before you hang your rock---add lots of blocking for grab rails---doors--spray wand bracket---

And take pictures with a ruler in the frame so you can remember where the blocking is---(Forgot that part a few times,myself)


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> I'd seal all surfaces on the cedar----as to lowering the ceiling---how high is it now? Will the rain head be at a comfortable height?
> 
> Before you hang your rock---add lots of blocking for grab rails---doors--spray wand bracket---
> 
> And take pictures with a ruler in the frame so you can remember where the blocking is---(Forgot that part a few times,myself)


Man, if you had been my business partner back a few years we could have been rich now, you come up with some things I never thought of buddy.

The ceiling in our bath is 8 foot, I don't like the idea of running pipes in the attic with the chance they could freeze. I did think of the blocking but not taking pictures of where they will be, that is just too neat. We will for sure have grab bars, we are at that age now.

Buying a package deal for the fixtures is totally out of our reach, that is the reason I was asking about the valve to control each fixture. The hand held, I plan to use, is the one I just took out yesterday and is only a few months old. We have most of all we need, I think, so far. I do know we will need some lumber and RedGuard, the valve and rain fixture, but this fixture can wait, I will stub out and cap it off for now.

I thought with the 32" shower base I would have to move the commode but there is room without moving it, I am happy to say.

I have a question about the main valve we bought a few months back. The valve we bought looks exactly like the one for the tub and shower but no spout, I will get a photo of it later today. If this valve is for the tub and shower I could use the outlet for tub to go to the over head fixture. Hmmmm, I see I need to think about this one for a while, I will need a valve from this outlet to control the over head and a valve to shut off the over head and a valve to shut off the main shower for the hand held on the back wall. This could get good. Got to do some drawing to see what can be done. 

Pictures coming up soon.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You may need to visit a plumbing supply house for the transfer valves--there are several types --

When to have an idea exactly what you want to do---we will step in with the kind you need.

If overhead piping is needed----consider PEX---that has the best freeze/burst rating around--
and it's inexpensive and fast to install--We can't use it here---except for hydyonic heating---

Pex will make your attic run much safer.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, I got the valves figured out today, all I will need is two, two way valves. I will check out the Pex, I have never used it before, I still have a bunch of copper fittings and some copper pipe left. I plan to run the overhead pipe under the sheet rock that is there now and add 2 inch rigid styrofoam insulation as an added measure. The attic is well insulated already so I think that will work.
Here is where I am now, I did finish tearing out the rock on the back wall. Also a couple of pictures of the half bath we built before we started the full bath.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I like the colors in the 1/2 bath--- 

Your plan for the plumbing will be fine---I've done that in this area and not had a freezing problem---


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

BigJim said:


> We want to install 12X12 Porcelain tiles on our shower walls. I am using a factory composite shower base, mainly because I can't get down on the floor very well anymore. I want to run the wall tiles on a 45 degree angle and we will have a tumbled marble border in the walls. Is this a bad idea or will it work?


Fine. Wall tile is preferable to floor tile for walls.



BigJim said:


> I am using 1/2" Dur-rock with RedGard water proofing, I am using fiberglass tape for the joints of the Dur-rock. What grid should the screws be on the Dur-rock?


Just read the Durock instructions.



BigJim said:


> Another question is, how good is Mapei modified thinset and Mapei grout. Will this work with Porclain.


It's a fine company, but of course like most companies they make more than 1 line of thinset and grout.



BigJim said:


> I have unsanded grout as I plan to have a 1/8" grout line or should I go with a sanded grout with a 1/4" grout line?


I think a sanded 1/4" grout line on a shower wall would tend toward the ugly side.



BigJim said:


> Another question, we want glass shower doors, will the doors mount on the tile or the wall with the tile butting the glass door trim behind. The tile is going from shower base to ceiling.


The door mounting hardware goes on top of the finished tile. Make sure you have double studs in the wall behind the tile where you want the doors to go. Cutting the holes for the mounting screws through tile is pretty easy.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate your input. I can't remember which I have now, sanded or unsanded, I will have to look. 

I had thought about quartering all the 12" tiles but then I thought about how to edge them and how accurate I could cut them consistently so I forgot about that. 

Today I am working on getting the rest of the sheet rock out, I see some rot behind the commode also. While getting the wainscoting from behind the commode yesterday I messed the seals up from the tank to the base so now I will need to replace them while I am at it. I should have just taken the commode out of the way to start with.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

BigJim said:


> I had thought about quartering all the 12" tiles but then I thought about how to edge them and how accurate I could cut them consistently so I forgot about that.


I'm glad you did


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Sounds like fun----That's the joys of remodeling an older house---some surprises are always hiding behind the wall board.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

BigJim said:


> For crying out loud, I am really thinking aren't I, man, this getting old stuff is for the birds. Thanks for keeping me straight buddy.


Getting old ain't for sissies.:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

BigJim said:


> For crying out loud, I am really thinking aren't I, man, this getting old stuff is for the birds. Thanks for keeping me straight buddy.


Getting old ain't for sissies.:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
As long as you can get to it also but blocking around toilet for grab bars. You never know.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

ToolSeeker said:


> Getting old ain't for sissies.:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:
> As long as you can get to it also but blocking around toilet for grab bars. You never know.


Ain't that the truth.

I put one of my tarps around the tub so we could take a shower and not having anything at all to hold on to was scary. I told Judy we were going to have grab bars everywhere.

Wes, our grandson came by after school again today and helped me out a lot. All we have to tear out is the wall behind the commode. Wes is a real life saver, he has helped me so much and I really appreciate it a bunch.
Tomorrow the tub is coming out, I hope.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Got a little more done today, the tub is out and I can see what I need to replace from top side, I will look under tomorrow and see what needs replacing under there. I was surprised to see no more damage that there actually is. 

Mike, I have a shot of the bottom of the shower base, how thick should I make the mud base under the shower base? The instructions call for plaster to be mound up in four places then set the base forcing the plaster to spread out under. Would I do the mortar the same way?

Here are the pictures.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I put the base in place to see what all I would need to do to get ready to set it, the first thing, cut the hole for the drain and wouldn't you know it. And the joists are red oak and hard as Superman's knee caps.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Damn----I hate it when that happens!!!

Any possibility you could shift the location a couple of inches??

As to the mud under the pan--I usually make about 8 piles about the size of a cow patty---enough that when you push, wiggle and press--the pan ends up sitting flat.

That joist is one reason I build so many pans by hand---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Damn----I hate it when that happens!!!
> 
> Any possibility you could shift the location a couple of inches??
> 
> ...


I wish I could but I can't. I will just head the joist off in a couple of places and be done with it. I took the underlayment and sub floor up a little while ago, one joist is rotten and one is not even there at all. No insulation under the floor either so this will give me a chance to put more in.

Thanks for telling me about the mud, This what I was looking for.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Your house sure has had some water damage over the years----at least you can do some of that from the top--


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Your house sure has had some water damage over the years----at least you can do some of that from the top--


That water has been pouring in through a 3 inch hole in the roof since 1994 and we didn't know it. The hole can't be seen from the ground.

I got a question, when I put the mounds of mortar under the base, I know the drain fitting must be fastened to the base permanently as I can not take the base back up, right? Do I put some mortar where the drain fitting is so that part will be supported? 

I have built membrane bases with the grout and laid tiles using Portland back when we had to soak the tiles over night. I wonder why they stopped doing it that way, it sure was easy and quick. I just have never installed a fiberglass base before. I appreciate your help Mike.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Install the drain set before you install the pan--- 
don't be concerned with any mortar that fall through the hole into the crawl space--

the pan has plenty of strength to bridge the gap by the drain--and any voids created buy some uneven coverage in the mortar --


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Install the drain set before you install the pan---
> don't be concerned with any mortar that fall through the hole into the crawl space--
> 
> the pan has plenty of strength to bridge the gap by the drain--and any voids created buy some uneven coverage in the mortar --


Thanks buddy, I appreciate that. I will let you know how it goes after I replace all the floor.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I got the floor joists replaced that needed it and reenforced just to be sure. I have the new floor down and have sealed all cracks around the outside with the spray foam. I have the hole cut for the drain and the drain fitting on the pan. Some of the lower plates were gone so I replaced the ones around the shower for now and will get to the others as I dig into the walls.

The floor had a 1/2 inch hump in it so I fixed that, the walls were out of square and were not straight at all so I corrected that. I am at the point of putting the mortar under the base today and setting it. 

Question, do I need plastic on the plywood under the base before I put the mortar bed down?

One more question, how long do I have to stay off the base after I put the mortar and base down?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

> Question, do I need plastic on the plywood under the base before I put the mortar bed down?


Yes. Use plastic or tarpaper. Then staple the lath, you're using lath right? So I don't have to read all the post again, (I don't recall) are you doing a traditional shower or Kerdi? 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey Jaz, no I put a fiberglass base in today already. I can't stay on my knees long enough to put the real shower in we wanted so we had to settle for a fiberglass base. I am going to tile the walls and build a red wood seat that we can remove. I haven't figured out how I am going to make cleats that won't leak though. I also plan to make a couple of recesses and plenty of grab bars.

I still have to frame in for the plumbing but at least for me the hard part is done. I mixed the mortar a little too stiff but we finally got the base down like it should be. All is level and the drain is hooked up and working perfect, I am a happy camper today. The weather turned out to be nice and sunny and almost warm here today so it was the perfect time to crawl under the house.

I will have to go back under the house again before I finish the bath, I saw where a repaired water line is not long for this world. Someone hooked galvanized pipe into copper pipe. I will take the galvanized pipe out and run copper, I don't want to do it but once.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

OK, the mortar base is for the fiberglass base. :thumbsup:

Glad the project is going well. Glad, and envious about the warm weather too. High here yesterday was 12, it's 18 today.

Jaz


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Good to hear that part is done!

I'll think about that seat mount


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> OK, the mortar base is for the fiberglass base. :thumbsup:
> 
> Glad the project is going well. Glad, and envious about the warm weather too. High here yesterday was 12, it's 18 today.
> 
> Jaz


Good gravy, that is cooooold, I sure hope it doesn't get that cold here, we don't have permanent heat yet. We have two of the little oil filled radiator heaters and it keeps the house toasty warm, so far. The lows so far have only hit the high teens but our house is small and doesn't take much to heat.

Talking about cold weather, I had one house that a customer wanted just the trim and stairs, I told him he needed heat in the house for his benefit. He was too cheap to turn the heat on, I told him all of his joints would open up about two or there months after they turned the heat on. They turned the heat on, painted and moved in, and sure enough almost every joint in the house popped open. He called me and asked what I was going to do, I told him, nothing, I told you that would happen. He was not a happy camper.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I was just reading on the redgard container the coverage, it says it will cover 35-40 sq ft, is this correct? If so I will need another gallon.(walls are 77 sq ft) 

For a cleat for the Red Wood seat hopefully the Redgard and porcelain will be good enough. I try to make sure there are no voids behind the tiles by back buttering so hopefully this will be solid enough to hold.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

You're gonna use 2 gal. to achieve the proper wet/dry mil thickness. Apply 2 coats.

Apply a second coat at right angles to the first coat. Periodically check the film thickness with a wet-film gauge. Combined dried coatings must be at least 30-35 mils thick. When wet, the combined coatings must be at least 60-70 mils.

Do you have a wet-film gauge? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...xX8BUc7oK8rBqAGml4GgAw&ved=0CHYQ9QEwBQ&dur=34

Jaz


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

JazMan said:


> Do you have a wet-film gauge?



Other than this, what do you (meaning you literally) use a wet film gauge for?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

It's used to gauge anything that is applied wet. Like paint, if you have to check and meet certain specifications. Don't buy one though. They're available from distributors at no charge usually.

If you're a "tile guy" and use liquid applied membranes but don't use a wet-film gauge, people are liable to look down at you. Lots of guys buy Redgard at HD cuz it's easy to find and cheaper than other membranes but just slap on a thin coat so it turns the substrate red and that's it. YIKES!

I know a tile guy who uses Hydroban, buys it in 5 gal. pails. (big bucks, more than Redgard), he used to just apply it to get an even layer. No gauge and probably just one coat. Then while discussing it he was told the right way. He was using less than half the minimum amount. He's otherwise a very good tile setter and bathroom remodeler. Me, I use Kerdi and sleep well.

Jaz


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

JazMan said:


> It's used to gauge anything that is applied wet.


Yes I know but I was asking what you personally have used it for (other than RedGard of course.)

It's not much use for things applied with a notched applicator (for example I have applied garage floor epoxy with a notched squeegee.)

I can't see it being much use for paint, because a) a rolled on film is "bumpy" (variable thickness), and b) you can gauge that by sf coverage anyway based on the spec sheet film thickness provided.

I don't use RegGard.

So I'm just looking for an excuse to get another tool


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

It's used the gauge paint thousands of times every day. Get one, it'll probably be at no charge. it's just a small piece of aluminum, and hopefully not radioactive. (p.j.)

In the case of the notched squeegee, that is the gauge. As for paints, sometimes it's kinda impossible to measure square feet coverage. All high-tech contracts call for a specific mil film thickness in order to get paid. The "super" isn't going to stay there to measure area and hand out paint.

Call Laticrete, they'll send you one..or four. Henry was sending them out to us a while back. 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Jaz, looks like another trip to home d. I looked at the cost of Hydroban today, it is twice the price of Redgard. I also read if you over apply the thickness it will void the warranty also. If you ever have a claim with Redgard the rep will check with one of the little gauges, to thick or too thin and they are off the hook.

I have a plumbing question and it is a little strange. Will the valves for a shower work in reverse? What I mean is, will the valves work if water pressure is applied to the outlet port and supplied to the two inlet ports? I want to use a regular shower valve to divert water from the shower port of the main shower valve to two other shower fixtures. I just didn't know if it would work backwards.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

The shower valve will probably work backwards, but there may be a problem with proper gpm flow. Ask your question at the plumbing forum at this site. Click above near the header.

Jaz


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Depends on the brand and model--but my guess is --no--the newer mixer valves are not simple water shufflers---they have a pressure balancing cartridge--so nobody gets scalded if the hot or cold water pressure changes suddenly----

you may need to go to a plumbing house for a proper valve.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Depends on the brand and model--but my guess is --no--the newer mixer valves are not simple water shufflers---they have a pressure balancing cartridge--so nobody gets scalded if the hot or cold water pressure changes suddenly----
> 
> you may need to go to a plumbing house for a proper valve.


I didn't think about that, well back to the drawing board. After thinking about the valves I will need three shut offs instead of two anyway. I am trying to stay away from the manifolds because they are out of our reach. I have found fairly nice looking shut off valves on line but they are the really cheap ones and I don't think they will hold up long. There has to be a way to have all three fixtures working without breaking the bank.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Exactly what are the three fixtures?

Could two separate mixer valves be used and one switching valve?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Exactly what are the three fixtures?
> 
> Could two separate mixer valves be used and one switching valve?


I don't know how I missed this post. Mike there is a 1.5 gpm shower head with a Delta one leaver scald guard valve on one end and there will be a 2 gpm shower head in the center over head sort a like a rain shower. On the other wall at the seat will be a hand held sprayer and shower head combo. I have it figured out now, I think. The old valve I took out I reworked as it is a Delta and in great shape. I reinstalled it below the new scald guard valve and hooked the feed into the same shower head as the new Delta.

The old valve had a shut off for the shower or the tub. It isn't the type where you have to pull a nob up on the tub spout, this one you just turn the center valve. I am going to use the center valve to go to the over head shower head and the hand held at the other end. I will need a two way valve to divert the water from the over head shower to the hand held. Here is the set up I posted in another thread. The supply line for the over head and hand held is stubbed out pointing downward in the lower valve.

I plan to install T&G western cedar overhead after I drop the ceiling over the shower. I do not plan to use any trim on the ceiling, I can cut it close enough where none is needed. My question is, should the cedar ceiling butt the tile, or should the tile butt the ceiling. 

Here is the way I have it plumbed now.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You are a better woodworker that you are a tile setter----I vote tile first--then wood--

You might even want to 'bread board' the cut ends--that would not add much to the work and give the bead board a nice finished end----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> You are a better woodworker that you are a tile setter----I vote tile first--then wood--
> 
> You might even want to 'bread board' the cut ends--that would not add much to the work and give the bead board a nice finished end----


You are right, I have done way more wood working than tile. I don't follow you on the bread board cuts on the ends, you know how I am, kinda thick.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Instead of the cut end butting against the tile-----add a strip of the cedar to that edge first--then bitt the cuts against that----a groove in the 'bread board' and a tongue on the strips would really keep the ceiling looking trim---

Think of the way you would end a hardwood floor around a hearth----or at a doorway.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Instead of the cut end butting against the tile-----add a strip of the cedar to that edge first--then bitt the cuts against that----a groove in the 'bread board' and a tongue on the strips would really keep the ceiling looking trim---
> 
> Think of the way you would end a hardwood floor around a hearth----or at a doorway.


Now I see why you make the big bucks, that will look sharp buddy, thanks a ton.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Little details add a lot----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am at the point of installing the durock. Today I built the inset and discovered there are very few studs that are plumb, what a mess. Here is the deal the shower base is close enough to level to call it that, maybe just a fudge out but not enough to worry about but, with the back wall is almost an inch out of plumb and the base maybe 3/16" out of level, I don't know exactly which way to go. 

I cut a straight 2X4 and took a tile and set the tile down on the base and the back edge of the tile against the 2X4 to see how out of hoo doo it is. If I rip a 2X to fur the back wall to fit the tiles it is going to look somewhat out of plumb, I think. The first run of tiles will have to be cut to work out the way I want them to layout anyway. If I rip a strip to make the back wall in plumb and cut the first run of tiles on the side walls to keep the same margin at the bottom I think that would be the least conspicuous. Does this sound about right.

Remember I am an ole nail whooper, they use to call us, "Pouncy pound and the nail driving five":whistling2:


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

No tub or shower base is perfect---so count on a cut on the first row----

Any way to sister in some studs to plum up the walls?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> No tub or shower base is perfect---so count on a cut on the first row----
> 
> Any way to sister in some studs to plum up the walls?


I just about have it furred out now. Another question, on the durock I have 3 feet on the side walls, can I just stand the durock up the five foot way or do I have to stack it the 3 foot way? 

On the thinset, do I put the fiberglass tape on the seams then put the thin set into the tape or do I make the thinset really smooth in the joints, let dry the put the fiberglass tape over the thinset joints?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Stand up the narrow side of the shower----taping---first press some thinset into the gaps--then top with the mesh and add the thinnest possible layer of mud----the mesh will show---that is okay--
the Red Guard is thick and will bridge small gaps-

You do not want a hump---thin---very thin is best---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Stand up the narrow side of the shower----taping---first press some thinset into the gaps--then top with the mesh and add the thinnest possible layer of mud----the mesh will show---that is okay--
> the Red Guard is thick and will bridge small gaps-
> 
> You do not want a hump---thin---very thin is best---


Thanks buddy, you are a life saver. I wish I had stuck around and watched the tile guys now. I have done tile where I had to put in a thick mud bed, soak the tile in water over night and use dry portland sprinkled on the mud bed as an adhesive but this new day materials I haven't used but a few times.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

This 'modern' thinset and Durrock makes tile work much simpler than the old ways---

When you buy your spacers (if you don't have them yet)--get the round ones from Lowes--they are easier to use than the X shaped ones---not worth a special trip if you have the cross shaped one already--

Also a bag of small rubber wedges fron the Home Depot--those are helpful with the bottom course.

I use a ledger board and leave the bottom tile for last--the weight of the tiles frequently shifts the bottom tile-----some times I will start at the bottom---but rarely---


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi Jim,

I see you're progressing well.:thumbsup: That was the "neat cement" method you were describing, when was that, the '70's? 

I haven't had good luck with the round spacers for walls, the Tavy brand. They kept falling out. I think they'd work on a floor, if I used spacers on floors.:no: I usually use the + with just one point inserted, they wanna fall too, but not as bad. Actually small pieces of tile-box cardboard make the best spacers. I like double thickness and you can compress them if needed. Don't leave them in too long though, cuz they'l tear when pulling them out.

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> This 'modern' thinset and Durrock makes tile work much simpler than the old ways---
> 
> When you buy your spacers (if you don't have them yet)--get the round ones from Lowes--they are easier to use than the X shaped ones---not worth a special trip if you have the cross shaped one already--
> 
> ...


Man, you got my attention now, I never heard of rubber wedges, how do you use them? If you don't start at the bottom where do you start. I like that ledger board idea, that will insure a good straight run. I did get the round spacers, they just looked like they would work best. 

While I am thinking about it, how do I drill a hole in the porcelain, a diamond hole saw?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The wedges are hard white rubber ---they are needed for fine tuning the tiles where they meet the pan---also handy when the side wall meets the back wall to keep the tiles from sliding---

Ledger---I use whatever straight wood I have----usually plywood rips left over from cabinet making---a good straight 1x4 will do if you don't have scrap---

the ledger makes the work fast and straight----do your layout on the wall--so you have good large cuts,top and bottom---figure out where the second tile row will be---and screw that ledger onto all three walls----

leave the bottom row for the second day---

Diamond core drill with a plastic stick on guide---easily found at any big box store----
The drill bits are dirt cheap on Ebay--but you must wait-----I buy 1/4" bits for about a $1 each from Hong Kong in bags of 10----but the delivery time is slow---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> The wedges are hard white rubber ---they are needed for fine tuning the tiles where they meet the pan---also handy when the side wall meets the back wall to keep the tiles from sliding---
> 
> Ledger---I use whatever straight wood I have----usually plywood rips left over from cabinet making---a good straight 1x4 will do if you don't have scrap---
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike, that is a big help. Hopefully I will have the studs furred out by tomorrow and get on the durock, I did get the durock screws like you suggested. I hope I got a handle on the tile now. I got the shower valves figured out without having to buy any more. I have the ceiling lowered also, I think we are in good shape, so far. I really appreciate it buddy.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

The durock is in and the seams and joints are taped and thinset applied to the joints. How long do I wait to put the Redguard on, I have a fan blowing on it now.

I saw the spot on the inset, I already fixed that.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Jim,

I'm concerned how the Durock meets the fiberglass base. What happened? That's not gonna cut it if I'm seeing it right.

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jaz, the durock overlaps the base lip by 1 inch, the two ends turned in because of the lip so I took the back side of the rock out and put thinset and fiberglass tape over the edges to reinforce. I went ahead and ran the thinset all the way down to the ledge on the two ends. What I plan to do is cut the durock back on the end walls and fill with 100% silicone so water won't wick up to the durock. The back wall just overlaps the lip by 1 inch, Will that work?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

The end walls look like are both bowed in, might be the wide angle lens though. I tried to magnify the back wall and darn if it looks like the base protrudes in from of the Durock. I may not be seeing it right. Do you have a link to that base so I can see a diagram?

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Whew, scared me there, the walls just look that way, the camera must have made it look like that. I put a straight edge on all of the walls and there isn't more than a heavy 1/16th out of being totally flat. I plumbed and leveled everything and measured to make sure there is the same distance top, middle and bottom. Here is a picture of the shower pan standing on end before I installed it. The back wall the rock over laps the lip by 1 inch. By all means if I goofed somewhere please let me know I don't have enough steam to tear it out and do it over. I appreciate it Jaz.

The front edge is on the floor.

I just went back and looked at the pictures, man, you are right, the end walls do look bowed big time but they aren't.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

OK Jim, false alarm. I've never seen that design. And if the sides are plumb, it must be the lens. 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Man am I glad to hear that, I always appreciate any help you can give me Jaz.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Looking good--I'm glad Jaz is keeping an eye on this----he spots everything ----

I usually wait 24 hours before Red Guard----brush and roller---cover the pan well----that stuff is difficult to remove from finished surfaces----Keep a 'finger bucket' of warm water close by so you can keep the tools/hands/finished surfaces clean as you go---

Just a tip---cut the handle of your brush so it will fit into the bucket with the lid on---there is no way to clean the brush---best to just put it into the bucket and close the lid----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Looking good--I'm glad Jaz is keeping an eye on this----he spots everything ----
> 
> I usually wait 24 hours before Red Guard----brush and roller---cover the pan well----that stuff is difficult to remove from finished surfaces----Keep a 'finger bucket' of warm water close by so you can keep the tools/hands/finished surfaces clean as you go---
> 
> Just a tip---cut the handle of your brush so it will fit into the bucket with the lid on---there is no way to clean the brush---best to just put it into the bucket and close the lid----


Thanks Mike, that is a big help, I kinda figured the brush and roller would be shot. I put a fan in the room all night last night so I think it is about as dry as it will get for right now, I also have the heat cranked up so it would dry faster. How long do I have wait before we can get the redguard wet? Would it be OK if we covered it up and took a shower tonight?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

The Redguard is done, that stuff will make your coffee taste funny not to mention make ya drunk. I rolled the first coat, then used a brush and made sure all of the pin holes and little bubbles were filled completely for the second coat, just finished the third coat. I think we are in good shape now. I put 4 coats in the little inset area. Hopefully the tile will be complete next week.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Sounds like you are ready to tile---enjoy the shower----you are water proof now------


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I noticed last night that when I took a shower and the Redgard got wet it streaked sorta looked like soap streaks. This morning most of the streaks are gone but a couple of very small ones remain. I am sure they will go away today. 

In the meanwhile I did a search about the streaks and found where a few folks who had some problems with the redgard bleeding through the grout when they used the bone colored grout, that is close to the color we plan to us also. This was back in 2008, I just wonder if Redgard has been modified since then or has anyone had this problem and how did they solve it.

I will say the tems outside are the coldest it has been all winter here and all we have for heat is two small chill chasers and it did get a little chilly in here last night, I wonder if that would have any effect on the Redgard and is there and cause for concern. We will not get the Redgard wet directly again, we will cover it until all the tile is totally dry.

Got another question, how much thinset will I need for 77 sq ft of wall space, I do back butter the tiles if that has anything to do with it. I forgot, the tiles are 12X12 inch


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I never heard of color bleeding with red guard----never---

If your tiles are 12x12---You will use about a bag and a half--I prefer white--easier to clean up the goo that squeezes into the grout lines----but grey will be fine if that is what you already have---

I hope Jaz looks in---he knows the brands and such much better than I do----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Is that the big bag or small bag? Also I saw where one guy said he didn't grout the corners, he caulked them, is this right? Man this not remembering is for the birds

Thanks Mike, I appreciate it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That would be a big bag----depending on waste---that what's you will use---

Grouting and corners----inside corners move just a bit----so a flexible caulk is needed there--and where the wall meets the pan----

As you grout----while the grout is still soft---run a utility knife into the corner and pull out the grout---you need not be perfect--but clean it out enough that the caulk can enter the corner---I'll give you pointers on grouting and caulking when the time comes--

In some ways---the grouting requires more attention than the tile setting----done correctly---it;s not hard, just tedious---done wrong, it can make you cry---before grouting---come back for pointers---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Doing shower walls and doing regular tile floors are a lot different, I had no idea they were that different. I really should have paid more attention years back. You are a life saver Mike, thanks a bunch.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Here is a post from Jim Fs bathroom remodel---

*Jim's downstairs bathroom project*


Jim, The grout that you have chosen is a good one---Mix with cold clean water --about the consistancy of yellow mustard--

You don't want to do any of the water spraying goofyness--I suggest that ,as a novice, you do one wall at a time.--Use a soft white grout float--the disposable black sponge rubber ones tend to dig into the cracks and cause frustration.

Go back and forth several times and really pack the joints full--use the float like a squeegee--on an angle to the joints,to remove as much excess as you can--

Go have a small cup of coffee-----give the grout 10 to 15 minutes to set a little---

Then start the first 'break'(cleaning)--You will want to have 2 or 3 grout sponges and a couple of buckets of clean water---

The first break is to shape the joints and remove the majority of the excess grout---

Ring out your sponges almost dry--start cleaning using a gentle circular motion---don't try to actually clean the surface with the first break---just shape the joints and remove the majority from the face of the tile------You will probably only get 4 to 9 tiles before you need to flip the sponge---

Second break----no coffee this time--clean water --ring out the sponges almost dry--

All that should be on the tiles at this point is a messy smear---start wiping on a diagonal--

press the sponge flat with both hands and slowly pull the sponge and roll it as you pull --

You should get about 12 inches wiped before you flip the sponge and --press -slowly pull and roll up.


Final cleaning---at this point all that should be on the face of the tile is haze and a lot of small streaks---You can have another cup of coffee----Wait about 15 minutes--

Final wipe--if done correctly--the tile should (had better be) be clean and shiny--done except for the tiniest bit of streaks.

This time --go with the tiles,not diagonally--two hands on the sponge- press-pull and roll only about 12 inches --then flip the sponge and do another 12 inches--rinse ring dry and repeat--

Most beginners try to get to much cleaning out of a dirty sponge--Any one who has wiped up a glob of jelly knows the press and roll of the sponge----Good luck--Mike-- 







      *The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oh'mike For This Useful Post:* Blondesense (11-05-2010), Jim F (10-0


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Hope this gives you an idea of the grouting process----

He was using 4 1/4" x 4 1/4" squares---so adjust the thinking for the tile size you will be using----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Here is a post from Jim Fs bathroom remodel---
> 
> *Jim's downstairs bathroom project*
> 
> ...


That is a big help Mike, I will put this in my file. Thanks again


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Back to the streaks. Redgard will dry to the dry red color in 1-1 1/2 hours. If the temp is cold or damp it can take 12 hours. I'd protect it if you're gonna use the shower.

One bag of modified thinset will do the area, but you're gonna waste some, some have two #50 bags. You can do 4 floors in the time it takes to do one set of walls like yours. 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jaz we used the shower last night but there is just one slight streak left, it was cold even with the over head bathroom heater on, hopefully it will be OK by tomorrow. I hope to get fired up on the tile tomorrow.

I have one 50 LB bag of modified thinset but I used a couple of sheetrock mudd trays of the thinset to fill the seams and joints, I will pick up a small bag to be sure I have enough. Thanks Jaz and Mike I appreciate your help.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am about to get started on the tile here in a few minutes, I had a story pole with the tile layout made up, guess where it is, yep in the wall behind the Durock, kinda makes me wonder what else I left in there. 

When I do the back wall, will it be OK if the tile on that wall is within a 1/8th or so of the side walls? I was wondering if it is OK for the tile on the side wall to overlap the back wall tile but leave a 1/4 space. Or is it best to make sure the tile on the back wall is 1/4 inch away from the durock on the side walls and the tile on the side wall a 1/4 inch away from the tile on the back wall?


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Too funny about the layout. :laughing::no:

End the tiles of the backwall just short of the sidewalls. Will you be cutting both ends? Bring the sidewall tiles to about 1/8" of the backwall tiles. The 1/8 will appear wider cuz of the curve when you caulk. !/4" caulk is way wide and it's likely to droop too. 

Keep em level & plumb. :thumbsup:

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Too funny about the layout. :laughing::no:
> 
> End the tiles of the backwall just short of the sidewalls. Will you be cutting both ends? Bring the sidewall tiles to about 1/8" of the backwall tiles. The 1/8 will appear wider cuz of the curve when you caulk. !/4" caulk is way wide and it's likely to droop too.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jaz, I didn't get to put any up today, I went and picked up some more thinset so I wouldn't get started and have to stop and go get more. The bad part is Lowe's didn't have any more of the first bag. The first bag is Mapei Ultraflex 1 standard white tile mortar with polymer.
They said this I got today is the same thing just in a different bag, it is Mapei porcelain polymer enriched white. I don't plan to mix them, I just hope they are the same thing and install the same.

I did get the layout done and cut a few tiles to be ready for in the morning. I had to take my pump apart and turn the prop by hand to get it going but finally it went to working fine. Don't you hate it when you loan your wet saw out a few times then when you are ready to use it the blade is about wore out. Oh well, if I can make it through this one time I probably will never use it again anyway.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I feel like I am homesteading the tile in the shower, talk about slow. I am about 2/3s with the install. The inset and the border tiles really slowed me down, today I hope to have the tiles installed. I have to drill the holes for the valves and shower head pipes, hopefully that won't be too bad. 

I have an older MK 370 wet saw, yesterday every tile I cut would break about 1/2 inch before completing the cut. I noticed the carriage had a dip at the point the blade travels. I had an old tri square and I took the blade and used it to rest the tile on. By being very careful I made it work. I had on tile cut that had 5/8 inch on one leg and 3/4 inch on the other (lot of waste), it cut that one without breaking and I was sure it would.

What kind of gloves do you guys use? I have literally worn the skin off a couple of fingers. 

I am not really please with the install because I have had to adjust a few of the tiles which aren't spaced exactly as planned, Judy said she liked it but I will always see the goofups. I will make some pictures a little later.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

BigJim said:


> What kind of gloves do you guys use? I have literally worn the skin off a couple of fingers.


Gloves? :no: How you gonna set tiles with gloves on? Orange gloves used when I grout. Where are you puttin those fingers?

We like pictures!

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jaz, I am washing my mud bucket out after each batch I mix and the easiest way is to use my hand to rub the sides of the bucket. I am just mixing small batches at a time because I am so slow, so I have to wash the bucket a lot. I also wash my trowel and putty knife each time. I also drop mud on tiles below and rub it off with my finger. Sometimes I will get the mud on the wall a little heavy and will run my finger across the top of the tile to get some of the mud off so it won't ooz out between the tiles. Ya got to remember I am an ole man and my skin is really thin.:yes:

I will get a few pictures here in a little while. I found out why I am having some problems with spacing, these cotten pickin tiles aren't all the same size, kinda makes you want to pull your hair out.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

> I found out why I am having some problems with spacing, these cotten pickin tiles aren't all the same size,


Oh, Oh, You musta bought some "specials" at the big box store. And I would not use spacers, they'll mess you up with the cheaper tiles that are off-size.

Jaz


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Jim---get yourself a green scrub pad or a small scrub brush---always keep a finger bucket close by with water and a sponge---

You remember the wedges I mentioned? From the Home Depot? Those may be helpful if you had out of size tiles---that's bad---it will add a lot of extra time----

Wear rubber gloves when cleaning your equipment----and grease up your hands----that lime in the thinset will really dry out your skin.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Jaz that is what I wound up doing, the spacers are really fouling things up. I don't remember where we picked the tiles up now, it probably was Lowe's. Hmmmm, the brush makes good sense, it will sure save the ole fingers. I came in here to rest a few before going back at it, jumped right off into one of my social security naps, going to grab a cup of coffee and install the last 8 tiles. How long should I wait before grouting? 

The border will need sealing before I grout, how many coats. it is tumbled trevitine ( I can't spell that word and neither can spell checker)


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Over night is enough time to wait----knife out any squeeze out as soon as you can---

seal the travertine tonight before bed ,if you can---one coat should do---let the sealer dry for at least 4 hours--12 is better before grout---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that buddy.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Try rinsing your hands with vinegar after washing them. I hear that work well. I usually apply some hand cream on my drive home. The one I've got now is called _Udder_ly S_moo_th. Seems dairy farmers like it.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Try rinsing your hands with vinegar after washing them. I hear that work well. I usually apply some hand cream on my drive home. The one I've got now is called _Udder_ly S_moo_th. Seems dairy farmers like it.


Jaz, I got some stuff that may be about the same thing, it is called bag balm, farmers use it, it does seem to help. I will try the vinegar. My hands are rough as 80 grit sandpaper. You are sure right about shower walls taking a lot longer than a floor.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Finally, the tile is set, yesterday was one of those days, I had to cut the bottom run and the tile saw kept breaking the tiles about 1/2 inch before the cut was finished. I found out the table had a bow in it so I took it off and heated the bottom support and clamped it with a reverse bow until it cooled off, hey, it worked. I put the table or sliding carriage or what ever it is called back on. Next the pump wasn't pumping very well at all so I fooled with it forever and got it so it would soak me from head to toe really good, now I am wet, freezing and disgusted. The plastic hose had a kink in it so I heated the hoes and got the kink out.

Anyway, I took the water line loose because it was spraying water but not on the blade. Mean while I touch the running blade ,,, twice before I learned where it was. To make a short story longer, I got the tiles finally cut with a machine that looks like a bicycle without the chain guard. 

The rest of the day went great, our daughter and two of our grandsons called and wanted us to come over, well we needed a shower so we went over there, our daughter had bought me a new Ipod, I was beside myself, I have wanted one of these for a while but they were just out of reach. I got one now and am texting all over the place. This is a new game to me, I have never used one before. I did replace the glass on our grandson's Ipad, that was an experience, touchy like devils. I am a happy ole man today.

Well until I realized I really fouled up yesterday when I installed the last run of tile. This morning I realized I have a problem that I have to over come before I can grout. The sides walls are fine, I ran the durock on down like I was supposed to, the back wall I ran the durock down inside the lip of the shower only about an inch, this leaves about 2-2 1/2 inches of space where there is nothing behind the bottom tiles for 1/2 inch X 2-2 1/2 inches. In other words the last couple of inches of the tile is touching noting. My thoughts at the time were, if there is nothing there then water can't wick up or touch anything to cause mold. 

Well today the realization set in, what am I going to stick in there to keep from filling the void completely with grout. Would the grout ever dry, will it fall out, any suggestions other than taking the tiles back off, I don't have enough extras now that the saw wasn't cutting right.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Jim, 

Congrats about the generous daughter, she sounds sweet.

I would have placed a gob of thinset to the back of the affected tile for support then cut away any excess while still plastic. But with 12" tiles you should still be ok. Just grout it trying to force a little more grout in that area. It won't fill the entire space unless you mix it like soup. Should work well. You're gonna caulk along the tub anyway.

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Jaz that is a relief, I was afraid it would sag being that deep, I may cut some styrofoam and fill the joint so there is still 3/8 inch for the grout. I really hate to ask this but I honestly can't remember and I have done tile several times before. My memory is just terrible now days. What consistency should the grout be? By the way, here is a couple of picture of the tile before grout. It sure isn't a pro job but it is better than what we had. By the way, how long after I seal the grout can we use the shower?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That is a nice looking shower----I really like the trim around the niche----

how are you treating that exposed wood I see on the left of the niche?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that coming from a pro. The border is just some extra 12X12 tiles that was on sale and I figured I could make a border out of them. The inset is discontinued stuff on sale, they had 9 and I needed 6. If a person watches it and can figure out different ways to do something they can save some money, that stuff is high if you buy the regular border.

I got fired up on the grout and after a little while I knew I had mixed the grout too thick, I fought my way through the first batch and finally remembered how to do it. Man this ole memory stuff is for the birds. If I don't hurry up I am going to run out of grout. Just having a good ole cup of coffee before I go back. 

Oh, that is a stud outside the shower, I am redoing all the walls in there, we hate sheetrock so we are going back with wood.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Grouting done, when do I seal and how long after that do we have to wait before we can use the shower? Bed time.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Looks very nice Jim.!:thumbsup:

Normally you'd have all the walls covered and then tiled. But I know you had to do it this way, so fine to get the shower in operation. 

The sealer will tell you how long to wait after grouting, normally it'll say 48 hours or longer. Then not to get wet for another 12 or so. You can wipe any residue grout film tomorrow, and it's actually a good idea to mist the tilework with water to help cure. In the old days you'd want to keep it damp for at least 3 days, but with polymer grout these days, it's not as important. (plus the customer doesn't want to hear that). 

Jaz


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Jaz, you are too kind buddy. keeping the joints damp is kinda like we use to do our slabs, we would keep a sprinkler on it for a day or so, helped a little to keep from cracking. 

I got most of the haze off tonight, I have one of the little white pads with a handle for taking the haze off, does a pretty good job, but you still have to wash with sponges like crazy before using the little white thing. The second batch of grout I mixed a little thinner, I think I liked it better a little stiff but not so stiff it won't stay on your trowel.

I will check out the sealer and see what it says, it is DuPoint Grout sealer, I hope it is good. I know I went at this backwards but we have to have the shower back in operation quickly we can only mooch so many showers before we wear out our welcome.

Jaz, I can't thank you and Mike enough for walking me through this, you have really pulled me through this one.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

It's a lot more work, grouting, than most people imagine-----

Now that you are done---reread my grouting instructions and let me know if they are accurate----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Mike, you are dead on, that is some good instructions, I wish I had remembered that you wrote that. I did a little different on the sponges, I have 4 of them and use two buckets of water, the first bucket I use to really wash the sponges and the second rinses them, it worked out fairly well for me. I have a little haze this morning but that is a piece of cake compared to the rest of it. I definitely have a new found respect for tile guys who do showers especially, floors are hard enough, but a shower is a whole different animal. My hat is off to you guys, that is not easy work.

Mike, I loved the little rubber wedges, they were a life saver and worth way more than they cost. I wasn't wild about the orange spacers, they didn't work well with these out of square different size tiles, I used more of the rubber + shaped spacers with the little rubber wedges. 

Before I put that wet saw back up, that pump and I are going to have a serious talk. Maybe it didn't work right because I didn't change the water everyday but I did clean the filter. I hope I never need that saw again but if I get rid of it I want it to be in real good shape for the next guy. I am a happy camper today.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I use epoxy grout on most jobs-----talk about unforgiving!!

Glad it all went well----If you need tips on neat caulking let us know----


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Mike, I wouldn't be brave enough to use epoxy grout. I read the instructions on the sealer, I have to wait 72 hours for the grout to cure. The instructions say to wait 4 hours before walking on the floors and full cure of the sealer is 24-48 hours. I can not find anywhere it tells about a shower, I just hope 24-48 hours is enough before using the shower. Our daughter is going to get tired of us using her shower. With this time frame it will be Thursday before we can use it.

I got plenty to do while waiting. Any structural work I do will have to be fastened with screws, that close to the shower, I don't want to take any chances. I really don't think nailing would hurt anything but I sure don't want to find out either.

Mike, I have caulked a lot but since doing the shower I am second guessing myself, I am getting a little gun shy. As many houses as I have built and now doubting my ability, but I am. Here is the way I was going to seal the bottom where the tile sits 1/8 inch up from the shower base. I am going to buy 100% silicone lay the blue tape down and on the tile so there is just a small area exposed to caulk. I use to use tub dap to reseal a tub, what would you suggest for the corners. I left 1/8 inch to a little less gap between walls as you suggested, there is no grout in these joints.

The shower door and glass will have to wait a couple of months or so but we can put the shower curtains back up til then. I am hoping to go to a glass company and see if they have a come back, or a mistaken cut, piece of glass I can buy for the door. The glass panel shouldn't be too much of a problem. The last bathroom I reworked 9 or so years ago, the door alone cost $800. (I didn't do all of the tile work in there, I hired a pro for that) 

I will go ahead and install the can light in the ceiling above the shower hopefully today. I have a drawer I need to reglue up for a friend's daughter I have put off for a while now, so I will get that out of the way and clean the shop, what a mess.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I will be sealing the grout tomorrow evening, do I caulk before the sealer goes on or after? Here are a couple of pictures of the shower after the grout. I wish now I hadn't got the tile that looks like the edges are chipped, although it doesn't look all that bad in person.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I suggest you seal the grout first---but it really doesn't make much difference----

I have a different method of caulking----It's about time for bed---I'll type out instructions in the morning---Mike-----


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Applying silicone neatly can be a challenge--- This is the method that counter top and tilers use to get a perfect bead---

Remember this---silicone will stick to any clean--dry surface.

It will not stick to a wet soapy surface---

For this you need paper towels and a spray bottle of 'Greased Lightning' household cleaner.

Start low and work your way up so no spray wets any area yet to be done.

1. Apply a bead of silicone --do not leave any gaps or air pockets--
2. Spray the bead and surrounding area with Greased Lightning
3. Spray your finger
4.Tool the joint with your finger
5.remove excess to the paper towel

Do an experimental test----I believe you will like this technique. 
__________________
New members: Adding your location to your profile helps in many ways.--M--


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

oh'mike said:


> Applying silicone neatly can be a challenge--- This is the method that counter top and tilers use to get a perfect bead---
> 
> Remember this---silicone will stick to any clean--dry surface.
> 
> ...


I had to read that a couple of times before it sunk in, but I think I have it now. You run a good looking bead first, then spray the bead and surrounding area, right? If so that is the neatest trick I have ever seen. I wish I had known that back when I was working, I just learned how to run a decent looking bead without touching it again but every once in a while I made a goof up and had a mess to deal with. 

I can't thank you enough buddy.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That's it----This is the method that granite counter top guys use to end up with a tiny caulked corner---Just get that spray on as quick as you can ,so the silicone doesn't skin over---


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Mike, that is too just cool buddy, I will let you know how I do.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

The grout is sealed now, I did notice the second coat didn't seem to want to take, it almost acted like water running off a ducks back, I had to work it for it to soak in but it finally did. Will it hurt anything if I got some of the sealer on the porcelain, there was noway to keep from getting some on the tile. If it does matter how do I get it off the tiles. I am running the silicone this morning, I am so glad this part is behind me.

I just noticed, Mike, that you said get Greased Lightning cleaner and I got Simple Green, will that make a difference or are they about the same thing?

Next I am buying 1X6 T&G white pine for the walls and ceiling. I can't touch the western cedar and I can get the 1X6 T&G for less than $1 a sq ft. I will tear the rest of the sheet rock out today. 

I will have to re plumb the commode, for some reason, some one installed it too close to the wall then used an off set flange which restricts the flow some.


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## maranello055 (Mar 1, 2012)

Post some more pictures when you have time! Looks good so far!


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks Maranell, I appreciate that, I will post some more pictures as I get a little further along.

I am one happy camper right now, the shower is finished except for the ceiling and door, but the door will have to wait.

Mike that trick with the spray soapy stuff worked like a charm it made it super easy to deal with the silicone, thanks buddy, I do appreciate that a ton.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

So the spray soap works better than spitting on your finger?

Good job BigJim.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

drtbk4ever said:


> So the spray soap works better than spitting on your finger?
> 
> Good job BigJim.


Aahaa, you been watching me:yes:, I am guilty of doing that a time or two.LOL Thanks Bill I appreciate that.

The only down side of this is you best have enough silicone covering all holes because once you spray it, it is all over then, it will not stick to the soapy stuff. With a good bead all you have to do is spray the stuff on the tile and your finger and zip it is done. On the larger joints I used a putty knife sprayed and this is what that looked like.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Whew, is there a way to get rid of the smell of the silicone, it has dried but man it smells so bad it gives us a headache. Can I spray something in there?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Just turn on a fan----that vinegar smell leaves pretty quick---

Glad that spray worked for you----it does make applying silicone painless----


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