# Joists pulling away from header



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Joist hangers are not going to solve your problem! It actually looks like the rim joist has twisted with the top moving inward. The 1st thing to do as a temporary measure would be to sister another rafter inside of the one they are resting on to give them more resting space. The engineer will have to develop a long-term solution but from the pictures you provided looks like it's going to be quite extensive repairs.


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## pacificwing (Dec 18, 2015)

Msradell said:


> The engineer will have to develop a long-term solution but from the pictures you provided looks like it's going to be quite extensive repairs.


I think a sister joist is a good idea. There is not much foundation left to mount it on, however.

Does an engineer normally get involved in these types of repairs? Are rim joists difficult to repair/replace?


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

pacificwing said:


> Does an engineer normally get involved in these types of repairs? Are rim joists difficult to repair/replace?


To me this is not a do-it-yourself type repair. If a job could collapse your house and you are not an expert with a good understanding of the risk, you want an expert with liability insurance to at least sign off on it and preferably to do it, because the value of your house is a lot. (And you want proof of that liability insurance.)


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

I am with Msradell, it looks like the outside band has rolled inward at the top. You need to find out what caused that and have it corrected and soon. There is a lot of pressure on that band and with the floor joists pulling away makes it even more weak. That will be a difficult fix for sure.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

+1

I would scab in a piece across the bottom so that they don't slip off that edge. 

After that, can you shoot a picture from outside? Perhaps some screws to pull that rimjoist back in and lock it together.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Have to agree with Windows on this one.
I'd sister a 2 X 8 ASAP to that rim joist before it all comes down.
Not going to "fix" the real issues going on there but will not effect future repairs and may well prevent a total collapes.
Realtor suggested inspector?


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

joecaption said:


> Realtor suggested inspector?


How could an inspector miss that?

Wow. :surprise:


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

White cane, dark glasses, a dog with a hard harness should have been a tip off.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

123pugsy said:


> How could an inspector miss that?
> 
> Wow. :surprise:


Doesn't take a whole lot to be a home inspector these days. 



joecaption said:


> White cane, dark glasses, a dog with a hard harness should have been a tip off.


:vs_lol:


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Thinking more about the rim joist or outer band rolling like it has. If the rafters and ceiling joists are also loaded on the wall resting on that band, (which I bet they are since the floor joists run in that direction,) you would do well to support the entire floor joist system across there until you can have it fixed. Just nailing a 2x across there is not going to hold if it rolls a little more. The only reason it didn't pull away at the top is the floor decking is nailed to the top of the band/rim joist. If those nails let loose you are in trouble.

I would bet the rim joist or outer band, on the opposite side of the house, is pushed out about the same amount as that is pulled. Screws are not going to pull that back, there is way too much pressure, you would have to pull the weight of entire house with those screws. Even if they did pull the floor joist back, they would pull loose from the other end.

Not trying to scare you but it is very important to have this corrected and soon. I have corrected a couple of situations like this and it was very difficult.

*Edit Look a little closer at the nails, they are rusted and show water has gotten to them. In the first picture look at the shiney spot on the bottom of that floor joist, that is how far it has pulled away.

Look and see if there are enough of the foundation blocks there to rest a 2x on, if so that would be your best bet, secure what you have there and let an engineer check it out and soon.


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## pacificwing (Dec 18, 2015)

123pugsy said:


> How could an inspector miss that?
> 
> Wow. :surprise:


I've asked the same thing several times. One indication that I recently noticed is that on his report, all of the photographs of the crawlspace were taken from the same vantage point, which happens to be directly under the access hatch in the floor.

I suspect he jumped down there for 30 seconds, took 3 pictures, and then got out. 

He missed the cracks in the slab. He missed the cracks in the foundation walls. He missed the obvious signs of drainage problems. We are in the process of consulting with a lawyer to see if there is anything that can be done, since none of the disclaimers on his report mention anything about him not being liable for checking obvious and visible structural problems. We are not hopeful.

I suspect what happened is that the foundation shifted due to previous drainage issues in 2009 (we knew about the perimeter drainage replacement, but not the foundation shift). The shift caused the foundation wall to sink. That side of the house dropped about 1.5". I suspect in a desperate effort to hang onto the floor joists, the rim joist tipped forward at this point. 

That being said, I have a foundation and structural contractor coming in next week to give me a consult on repair. I'm not going to tell him about the SE or all of the other advice I've been given (to see if I can detect him trying to rip me off. I'm very cynical now). This is why I was trying to get an idea of what I can reasonably expect him to suggest.

In the interim, should I sister the sill along with the rim joist? If I don't sister the sill, then the sister joist will just be floating over the lip of the foundation wall when I attach it to the existing rim. I've googled it and found multiple techniques. What do you guys recommend? Nails; Screws; Bolts; etc? 

As you can tell, this isn't really my strong area.


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## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

Crawl space, that answers my question as to how you might missed it. Glad I read to the end . Good luck .


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## pacificwing (Dec 18, 2015)

BigJim said:


> Not trying to scare you but it is very important to have this corrected and soon. I have corrected a couple of situations like this and it was very difficult.


I'm pretty much passed the scared point already.

Can I ask what you did to resolve these issues? What was involved? What can I expect a contractor/engineer to tell me? 

The direction of the joists change direction halfway through the house. On the north side, they run north-south (shown in picture). On the south side, they run east-west. There is a double joist header that runs along the middle of the house (east-west) where the change in direction happens. I did check the other side of the joists shown in the picture, and they are still securely on their joist hangers and attached to the header with no gap. I've also checked the perimeter of the rest of the house. The problem is entirely on the north end.

I did notice the black spot around the nails and spot below the joists. As far as I can tell, there is only apparent water damage to the nails on two of the joists. I will point this out to the contractor.


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## Jnaas2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Hire someone to repair this mess, I have a friend that was crushed by a house trying to repair a nightmare just like this, It should be obvious on the outside that this foundation wall is bowed


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

123pugsy said:


> How could an inspector miss that?
> 
> Wow. :surprise:


They pretend to miss things. They're in cahoots with the realtors and lawyers. 

Their job is to rubber-stamp the house and push the sale through.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

Ultimately, if you're sinking a few hundred thousand dollars into a home and want to get a reliable report, you need to do inspections with contractors, not inspectors.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

it's impossible to get to know a house in a few hours. trouble is everything is hidden from view.

It doesn't matter how good the inspector is.


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## Tom738 (Jun 1, 2010)

user_12345a said:


> it's impossible to get to know a house in a few hours. trouble is everything is hidden from view.
> 
> It doesn't matter how good the inspector is.


It absolutely matters how good the inspector is. The problem is that most formal "inspectors" make their money by getting repeat business from Realtors, and that means not breaking deals. So they'll probably break a deal if they see something this egregious, but they don't go looking for major problems and they don't even try to list all of the problems. 

But if you get a good, experienced contractor to spend a few hours inspecting the home, you'll learn a lot more about its problems than you will from a Realtor-recommended home inspector.

Edit: of course, you're right that they still won't find the really hidden stuff. But this was in a crawlspace, relatively checkable.


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## Thecrawlguy (Jan 3, 2016)

user_12345a said:


> it's impossible to get to know a house in a few hours. trouble is everything is hidden from view.
> 
> It doesn't matter how good the inspector is.


The real estate home inspector is liable if he misses any problems, whether major or minor, with any of the items on his checklist. Some might be minor, like a leaky faucet, that a buyer would overlook and not pursue. A major problem would be a furnace that will need to be replaced before the next winter. The buyer would have asked the seller to install a new furnace, or give the buyer credit for the cost of a new furnace. The inspector's mistake will cause the buyer to have to purchase a new furnace. The buyer will look to the inspector for reimbursement.


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## Thecrawlguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Thecrawlguy said:


> user_12345a said:
> 
> 
> > it's impossible to get to know a house in a few hours. trouble is everything is hidden from view.
> ...





Tom738 said:


> user_12345a said:
> 
> 
> > it's impossible to get to know a house in a few hours. trouble is everything is hidden from view.
> ...


A real estate home inspector can insert a clause in his contract that limits his liability to the cost of the inspection. In other words, if he misses a problem, the most he can pay is the return of his fee. Joe Ferry, an attorney who advises home inspectors, says he thinks these clauses are counterproductive. For one, many buyers will not hire an inspector who insists on such a clause. The second reason involves the effect of the language, known as an exculpatory clause. It only applies to the person who signed the contract. If the buyer sues the real estate agent and the inspector, the clause does not protect the inspector from liability to the agent.


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