# Hole saw advice for ceiling boxes



## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Okay, I've been looking around and trying to figure out the best plan of action.

In a few weeks I am going to be starting the remodel of another bedroom. I am tired of cutting holes in the ceiling for boxes with my sawzall. When we gut the rooms, we leave the existing ceiling in place because of the insulation above. I need to cut through plaster in lath to get a metal ceiling fan box, another box for smoke, then one in the hallway for smoke, and finally one in the living room below for a fan box.

I don't want to have to buy 2 seperate hole saws if possible.

I know this is a remedial question, but are fan rated octagon boxes going to be the same size as an old work box?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

The old work octogons in my house are a size smaller than ceiling fan rated boxes - BUT, in the only act of intelligence the original electrician ever made, they were mounted directly under a stud so I didn't have to add any bracing system - just a bigger box.:thumbup:


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Hole saw kits are invaluable. Give your parents a hint to buy it for you, say for ... your birthday. They are rather inexpensive.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Buy whatever size hole saws you need Andy. Get good ones.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

JGarth said:


> Hole saw kits are invaluable. Give your parents a hint to buy it for you, say for ... your birthday. They are rather inexpensive.


An entire holesaw kit probably wouldnt be that practical for me, as I probably woun't use it much to make it worth it. Most that I have seen are well over the $100 range.

BTW, my parents don't buy me things. I do.

If you didn't have alzheimer's you would remember the nasty PM exhance a while back where you insisted I was "some kid" and for whatever twisted reason do not believe that I am 28 years old, own a house, have a wife and 3 kids.

And have all of my teeth. 

And they are real.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> I don't want to have to buy 2 seperate hole saws if possible.
> 
> I know this is a remedial question, but are fan rated octagon boxes going to be the same size as an old work box?


Are you bored or what?

Get yourself some Great White Hole saws from klien with the correct mandrels.

If you want to do it the hard way take a thin piece of plywood about 12 inches square. Outline the electrical box right in the center of the square. drill a 1/8" hole in the center of the outlined electrical box. 1" or less on each side of that drill 2 ..1/2 inch holes. Mark the spot on the ceiling where the center of the box will be. Hang a string from that point and thread it through the 1/8" hole of the template, drill through the ceiling through the 1/2 inch holes. Insert two toggle bolts through the 1/2" holes using fender washers under the head of the toggle and tighten down the template. Use your sabre saw to cut out the box outline.

Now wouldn't you rather buy a couple hole saws?


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Are you bored or what?
> 
> Get yourself some Great White Hole saws from klien with the correct mandrels.
> 
> ...


I want to aviod buying more than I have to. I don't like doing it with the sawzall because i keep screwing it up.

I'm just wanting to know if there is 1 particular size that I should buy to use for both octagon and old work round boxes...


ETA: Ya, I'm bored today... slow day 'round here...


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## perpetual98 (Nov 2, 2007)

How about a Roto-Zip?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Andy 

As a side note if your thinking about getting into the electrical trade your going to have to have your own tools, the employers don't buy them for you. Buy a good klien electricians hole saw kit. Sometimes emplloyers give you a list of what you need to start out. It won't be cheap to purchase all those tools at once. When I got my brother in law into the trade years ago I loaned him the money to get started. I do admire someone who doesn't want hand outs just so you know. He paid me back in a couple months and has helped me free of charge on many projects on my property.
He turned out loving to bend conduit and is now a very respected electrician and the go to guy for the crews conduit bending. It's an art and a sight to behold watching someone who is good at building a conduit run.

Point being you need the correct tools so get them. And yes I know how the budget gets with 3 kids.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

3-5/8" I believe is the size I use for most old work boxes. You might have to trim that a little for a 4" oct. Also, if you are going through plaster, get the kind with the carbide grit, not the regular toothed version. Plaster and sheetrock will dull the hell out of a holesaw quick.

InPhase277


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yep a lot of guys use roto-zips. I didn't mention it because of the cost. Andy doesn't have the funds as yet for that kind of purchase it seems.


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

CowboyAndy said:


> An entire holesaw kit probably wouldnt be that practical for me, as I probably woun't use it much to make it worth it. Most that I have seen are well over the $100 range.
> 
> BTW, my parents don't buy me things. I do.
> 
> ...


All you need now ... is a steady *J O B* ... then you could buy the hole saws for yourself ....


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## perpetual98 (Nov 2, 2007)

I got a knockoff Roto-Zip from Menards a while back for $30 I think. I've only used it a few times, but so far it's been worth the money. We'll see how it goes when I get further into my basement remodel.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Andy
> 
> As a side note if your thinking about getting into the electrical trade your going to have to have your own tools, the employers don't buy them for you. Buy a good klien electricians hole saw kit. Sometimes emplloyers give you a list of what you need to start out. It won't be cheap to purchase all those tools at once. When I got my brother in law into the trade years ago I loaned him the money to get started. I do admire someone who doesn't want hand outs just so you know. He paid me back in a couple months and has helped me free of charge on many projects on my property.
> He turned out loving to bend conduit and is now a very respected electrician and the go to guy for the crews conduit bending. It's an art and a sight to behold watching someone who is good at building a conduit run.
> ...


I don't want you to think that I don't have respect for your opinion, because I do.

But, I also have a wife who is in charge of the $$$. She doesn't understand the concept of the right tool for the right job. We have had the chat about me getting into the electrical field, and the response has been "well, when the time comes"...

You know how wives can be...

I would love to buy a roto zip. There are a ton of things I could use it for. 



InPhase277 said:


> 3-5/8" I believe is the size I use for most old work boxes. You might have to trim that a little for a 4" oct. Also, if you are going through plaster, get the kind with the carbide grit, not the regular toothed version. Plaster and sheetrock will dull the hell out of a holesaw quick.
> 
> InPhase277


Is this the type you are refering to?
http://www.holesaws.com.cn/products/holesaws/gritsaw/gritsaw02.htm

or this?

http://www.holesaws.com.cn/products/holesaws/gritsaw/gritsaw01.htm


JGarth said:


> All you need now ... is a steady *J O B* ... then you could buy the hole saws for yourself ....


Maybe you could get me one as a janitor at the nursing home you are in...


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Plaster and sheetrock will dull the hell out of a holesaw quick.


:yes: 

If all you have is a standard holesaw, run the drill backwards. Works fine for drywall and, in a pinch on plaster.





> You know how wives can be...


You need to sac up an take charge. Chicks dig that :thumbup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Plaster and sheetrock will dull the hell out of a holesaw quick.


 That is true but good carbide grit holes saws for ceiling boxes 3 5/8" and 4 " on up to can light size are interestingly priced..... Oh crap now I'm sounding cheap....


Reminds me of how outrageous uni-bits are.....


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

CowboyAndy said:


> Maybe you could get me one as a janitor at the nursing home you are in...


Sorry, ya' gotta have atleast a High School Diploma for that, not a GED.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

JGarth said:


> Sorry, ya' gotta have atleast a High School Diploma for that, not a GED.


Damn... only made it to 5th grade...


Then again, schools weren't invented yet when you were my age...





Well, I think I have been convinced to get a rotozip.

I guess I will use it more than I think. I just wrapped up doing some drywall in my bathroom project and it would have been handy! 

220/221... she is only in charge of the finances... But I think I can "persuade" her later on...


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

Keep in mind that a rotozip blows dust like a mofo. Rough consruction is fine but working in a home will make a *huge* mess. Good bits aren't cheap either.


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## Chazbe (Jul 19, 2007)

I may be in the minority here but any time I have to cut holes in lath and plaster I use a keyhole saw with a fine blade. Using a sawzall or some other type of reciprocating saw is just too aggressive. Same with the hole saw. It is better than the sawzall but still scares me. I have had it happen too many times the lath catches or pulls and then cracks the plaster till the next nailing point. Yea, it takes way more time to hand cut it but I feel it saves more time in the long run. 
I always score the plaster first and try to remove it before cutting the lath
Chuck


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## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

CowboyAndy said:


> I know this is a remedial question, but are fan rated octagon boxes going to be the same size as an old work box?



4" holesaw....

Box for smokes....











Box for fan....









Same size...


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

Chazbe said:


> I may be in the minority here but any time I have to cut holes in lath and plaster I use a keyhole saw with a fine blade. Using a sawzall or some other type of reciprocating saw is just too aggressive. Same with the hole saw. It is better than the sawzall but still scares me. I have had it happen too many times the lath catches or pulls and then cracks the plaster till the next nailing point. Yea, it takes way more time to hand cut it but I feel it saves more time in the long run.
> I always score the plaster first and try to remove it before cutting the lath
> Chuck


 
In my house, this isn't a concern because the plaster and lath is getting covered with drywall anyways. The whole room gets gutted, except for the 2nd floor bedrooms so we dont lose all that insulation in the attic.


Has anyone ever bought tools off ebay? I was on there and found these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosch-Rotozip-R...ryZ20791QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROTOZIP-SPIRAL-...ryZ29528QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the big box stores seem to sell the same thing for about $99.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Forget the second one it is junk and for hobby stuff. the bosch link is a good spiral but I've never used reconditioned roto's before in fact I've always used routers for drywall. Plaster and lathe is a differrent story.

Remember I come from a primarily industrial background so the other guys here have done more of this type work than I have so I would follow their lead on whether or not to use a roto zip or not. I know for a fact many like those for plaster and lathe but I do not know if they are any better than a carbide grit hole saw. I would imagine that the bit you use is the key to the roto zip's ability to cut those nuclear hardened wooden lathes. As you know the plaster is very unfriendly to a regular bi-metal hole saw if it grabs. So I think inphase77 is right on with the carbide grit hole saw. I think 221 also recommended those....so there is two fellows that have done a lot of this. I do know that the roto is used but I've never done plaster and lathe with one.. Seems you might be borderline on the bit length but I'm not sure.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

220/221 said:


> Keep in mind that a rotozip blows dust like a mofo. Rough consruction is fine but working in a home will make a *huge* mess. Good bits aren't cheap either.


I cannot agree more about the dust.

Andy, my house sounds similar to yours in that everything is plaster over lath. As I gut the rooms, I've been slowly getting rid of it however and after I demolished the ceiling in my living room (and had to haul all that crap), I've learned my lesson. Next room, I'll repair any sags in the ceiling with plaster washers and then cover it with 1/4" sheetrock.

I had to cut a bunch of 4 inch holes in my upper floor ceiling for HVAC. I bought a 4-in. Ridgid hole cutter/mandrel and used it for this purpose. 20 holes later, I must admit that the teeth were pretty worn. On the other hand, the sacrificial $16 (I think that was what it cost anyway) was worth it for the perfect (and fast) holes it made. To minimize dust, I made this rather neat contraption that I'll share with you.

I found a Ziplok (i.e. Tupperware) bowl (about 8 in. in diameter) and cut a small hole in its bottom, about 1/4" larger than the part of the mandrel that you chuck into the drill. Then I cut another hole in its side, its diameter just slightly smaller than my 1-1/4" vacuum hose. Now, I put the saw _in_ the bowl with the mandrel extending out of the bottom of the bowl and chucked it into my right angle drill. Then, I attached my 1-1/4" shop vac hose to the bowl with a 1/2" or so protruding into it. Since the hole is just smaller than the hose diameter, the corrugations force the hose to stay in place.

To drill the hole, start the vacuum and line up the mandrel bit with the ceiling mark and apply some pressure(the bowl will hang down, more so on one side so eyeballing the mark is no problemo). Now, push the bowl up to the ceiling and it will basically stick to the surface due to the suction of the vacuum. Start the drill and go to town. It's a beautiful thing to watch all the plaster dust swirl around inside the bowl before it's sucked up by the vac. As you drill, the drill chuck will tend to smush the bottom of the bowl but being as they are so pliable, it'll spring back into shape when you're done. My only other piece of advice is to use a fine-dust bag in the shop vacuum.

Happy hole cutting!
Jimmy


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> I cannot agree more about the dust.
> 
> Andy, my house sounds similar to yours in that everything is plaster over lath. As I gut the rooms, I've been slowly getting rid of it however and after I demolished the ceiling in my living room (and had to haul all that crap), I've learned my lesson. Next room, I'll repair any sags in the ceiling with plaster washers and then cover it with 1/4" sheetrock.
> 
> ...


Im not as much concerned about dust, because 90% of the stuff I do is in gutted rooms. The only place as of now that I am going to have to deal with the dust is the living room, as I plan to open up part of the floor of the bedroom I am doing so I can wire a ceiling fan for the living room.

the living room is hardwood floor, which makes for pretty easy cleanup.

That is a good tip though. Thanks!


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## atty_toconnor (Feb 4, 2008)

Cowboy Andy, I'm the typical DIY'er: usually have a tool that works, but isn't ideal for the project, and don't want to spend additional money for the ideal tool becuase it might not be used that much in the future. The same issue surfaced with my kitchen remodel job and the recessed lights. I used my sawzall. It worked, but was an ordeal. My electrician buddy (whose kind enough to check on what I'm doing and make sure I'm doing correctly what he and you guys tell me do to), couldn't believe I didn't have/use a hole saw. He lent me his for the other recessed lights. It was unbelievably quicker and easier, and it came out much better. My advice: buy or borrow a hole saw. You'll be glad you did.


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## CowboyAndy (Feb 19, 2008)

atty_toconnor said:


> Cowboy Andy, I'm the typical DIY'er: usually have a tool that works, but isn't ideal for the project, and don't want to spend additional money for the ideal tool becuase it might not be used that much in the future. The same issue surfaced with my kitchen remodel job and the recessed lights. I used my sawzall. It worked, but was an ordeal. My electrician buddy (whose kind enough to check on what I'm doing and make sure I'm doing correctly what he and you guys tell me do to), couldn't believe I didn't have/use a hole saw. He lent me his for the other recessed lights. It was unbelievably quicker and easier, and it came out much better. My advice: buy or borrow a hole saw. You'll be glad you did.


 
Thanks for that advice...


I was leaning toward buying a rotozip, but I have been sitting right on the fence. I am going to wait until my brother in law gets home from college for the year and see what he has to say about his rotozip (no, I can't borrow it - he WILL NOT lend his tools!)


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

CowboyAndy said:


> Thanks for that advice...
> 
> 
> I was leaning toward buying a rotozip, but I have been sitting right on the fence. I am going to wait until my brother in law gets home from college for the year and see what he has to say about his rotozip (no, I can't borrow it - he WILL NOT lend his tools!)


Yesterday I went to trim out my latest residential job. I found that the drywallers had used a roto zip and buzzed through the sides of many boxes and cut and nicked lots of my wires inside the boxes. I have a huge mess on my hands. I called the inspector who promptly red tagged the job. He is going to call the drywall company who will have to remove the drywall so I can pull new wires at the drywallers expense. I bet they will sell you that rotozip very cheap, as their screw up is going to cost them a few grand.


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## Phillysun (Jun 19, 2008)

Best deal for cutting holes in ceilings is one of the Hole Pro adjustable hole cutters. They adjust to whatever size you need (and the last time I checked my supplier had more than a dozen different sizes of recessed light cans) and the shield catches all the dust. I use mine for sheetrock, plaster, and even hardwood ceilings. I cut 18 6-5/8" holes in a 5/8" tongue and groove ceiling last week in less than an hour. The model I use the most goes to 12" so it works great for exhaust fans in the kitchen or bathroom and even for the new in-ceiling speakers for home theater or wholehouse audio systems. I have used their 6" model that adjusts below 2" diameter for a lot of 3-7/8" to 4" holes of HVAC outlets with a small diameter high velocity system from Unico (SpacePak makes something similar). I had to make holes in the wood flooring and in the plaster ceiling. I used the high speed steel blades that come with the kit for the floor outlets and the tungsten carbide blades for the holes in the plaster ceiling. Phil


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## wire_twister (Feb 19, 2008)

I use a 4 1/8 hole saw for both cut in plastic and metal octagonal and fan boxes. A 4 inch leaves a little trimming to be done with the plastic boxes where the tabs are, no problem with sheetrock, just push it in, a little tougher with lath and plaster.


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## Phillysun (Jun 19, 2008)

*best tool for the job*

I have used the Hole Pro model X-305 adjustable hole cutter on numerous projects with an old house I am remodeling. I put in light cans (4-5/8", 6-5/8") in plaster ceilings and the cutting action of the tool goes with the grain so their is no delamination of the plaster layers or cracking. It tool me far less time and no plaster dust in my eyes, ears, lungs, etc.

I put in another 16 light cans in a room with 5/8 tongue and groove wood ceiling and it took less than an hour and the cuts were perfect. What I like is that I can set the depth of the cut so I do not accidentally cut something hidden behind the wall. That would turn a relatively minor job into a major one.

I got the 12" model as I am putting in a wholehouse audio system with 6" and 8" in-ceiling speakers (6/7/8 to 11" cut-outs. It is in a basement I had sheetrocked and am making into a home theater. I cut the holes in the ceiling in less time than it would have taken to trace the holes for a rotozip or jab saw. 

I helped my brother add a tankless water heater for his master bath and needed a 7-1/8" hole in his Hardi board siding. The tungsten carbide blades made short work of it. My brother who has been a carpenter for the past 30 years was happy not to be breathing in the silica dust as his lungs have taken a beating over the year. Now he wishes he had been more careful.

I have yet to find a dust mask or respirator that will work when I wear glasses and if I use goggles my glasses fog up (old person's disease) and the shield on the Hole Pro hole cutter eliminates both those problems.

I have pointed friends to the DIYnetwork Cool Tools video of the Hole Pro tool in action so they can see what it can do, even with plywood. I just wish I had bought one years ago. 

Older and a wee bit wiser.

Phil


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm a firm believer in buying the best tools you can afford. Actually, I've been know to buy the best tools that I can't afford. Lots of 'em.

I've used this thing to install a number of can lights because I can't justify buying a set of hole saws for cans and recessed ceiling boxes. I would never recommend buying one to anyone that could afford to buy a hole saw, but it will get the job done.

Greenlee makes this one, and I got it at Home Depot. It is the kind of too I would throw away as soon as I got a hole saw. It is an innacurate nasty contraption.


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## BillyD (Mar 15, 2008)

Do it the old fashion way and use a keyhole saw. It works great and very cheap.


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

BillyD said:


> Do it the old fashion way and use a keyhole saw. It works great and very cheap.


not for lath and plaster it won't


If i were you andy, id buy a rotozip, it'll cut through lath and plaster perfect and you can use it for many things. A 3 5/8 or 4 inch hole saw you will never use again unless you need to cut in electrical boxes. And a sawzall is an absolute terrible choice on lath and plaster




Stubbie said:


> Andy
> 
> As a side note if your thinking about getting into the electrical trade your going to have to have your own tools, the employers don't buy them for you.


You guys have to buy your own hole saws? We aren't even allowed to carry anything of our own other than hand tools. Nothing with a motor or electric, and no drill bits of any kind


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

thekctermite said:


> I'm a firm believer in buying the best tools you can afford. Actually, I've been know to buy the best tools that I can't afford. Lots of 'em.


Shhh. Don't tell my wife! I do the same LOL!

Ok, my joint is plaster and lathe. Drywall saws and anything that pulls like a typical saw are no good. They will destroy the plaster because they grab the lathe boards. Rotozip type tools are good but they create a terrible amount of dust. Hole cutting saws are IMO the best but the plaster can dull the teeth pretty quickly. I think that it may have been the Stub-master that talked about cutting through the plaster with a hole saw running in reverse. Then when you get through (pull the plaster circle out), reverse the drill motor and finish in the forward direction. This will cut a really nice hole with minimal (or the _least_ I should say) dust.

Do not use any type of push-pull saw. They will engage the lathe and break all of the plaster keys away. You'll have quite a mess on your hands!

Jimmy


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## BillyD (Mar 15, 2008)

Sure a key hole saw will work. What do you think they used way back. It is hard work but you won't make mistakes but once.


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## Phillysun (Jun 19, 2008)

I have used jab saws and roto zips and they work well OK for square outlet boxes but are marginal for round holes and the larger the hole or the more holes you need to cut the worse they perform. Try following a circle trace on a ceiling with dust going everywhere and then catching the cut plug. 

I did a new home with over 200 light cans in sheetrock, plaster, and 5/8" tongue and groove and used a Hole Pro adjustable hole cutter for every single hole. I had all the holes cut in under 4 hours with clean edges and no damage to the surrounding area. And cleanup was not a concern as everything, dust, shavings, and the cut plugs went into a 5 gallon pail and then out to the dump box. Never needed the shop vac. 

No way would I go back to a roto zip any more than I would go back to using a cord drill or a hand auger. I can cut the holes faster than I can trace the cutouts and there are no worries about accidently cutting into a wire, plumbing, or stud. With the economy as bad as it is (and getting worse every day) I need to get the job done as quickly as possible and move on to the next one.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Phillysun said:


> I did a new home with over 200 light cans in sheetrock, plaster, and 5/8" tongue and groove and used a Hole Pro adjustable hole cutter for every single hole. I had all the holes cut in under 4 hours with clean edges and no damage to the surrounding area. And cleanup was not a concern as everything, dust, shavings, and the cut plugs went into a 5 gallon pail and then out to the dump box. Never needed the shop vac.


You guys are going to talk me into getting one of these very soon. :thumbup:


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## ScottR (Oct 6, 2008)

Just wanted to jump in and thank you guys for referencing the Hole Pro.. I never knew it existed, and I'm going to be doing cans and speakers in a bunch of rooms (in drywall, thank god) and that will probably be worth the $.

BigJimmy - I like that dust collector idea.. I wish I'd thought of that on some past installs. Sounds more fun than a face full of dust.

My 2c on the RotoZip is that they work great, so long as you set the depth of the bit to a hair over the thickness of the wall surface to avoid nicking wires/boxes. (Actually, I never used a RotoZip, but a Dremel with the "router" base attachment which is adjustable. Not sure about the RZ). I'd probably be more careful when using around plastic boxes though.


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## rtoni (Jul 18, 2007)

total DIY here - got a Roto-Zip and found it useful for a few minor jobs. Like any other tool, in the hands of a person with some experience, probably a good bet. For me, a few "mistakes" before I got the hang of it (if you're not careful especially in all the dust it can get away on you)

biggest concern was sinking a bit too far into the mat'l - like the post here about the drywaller's mistake - pretty easy to fly thru a bunch of wires

from the dust perspective (I also had to work on lathe and plaster) running the rotozip on the wall boxes was much easier than anything overhead (as you would probably guess) - rotozip flew thru those areas - overhead for me (klutz) was a bit of swearing

just my 2c from a DIY point of view....


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