# How to Fill in Basement



## handyman_20772 (Jun 28, 2006)

What exactly is FEMA safe? And who is gonna pay for the movement of your water and gas lines? Not to mention the lifting of your house, the disconnect/reconnect of the utilities and everything related to moving a house. Is it really worth it? Good luck with whatever you decide to do, I know that it will be a hard decision.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I only know of one person that did that-----your electric panel is one of the big issues---along with the steel lally columns--and any plumbing clean outs---

What you need to know is what they consider "filled in"--My neighbor added 3 feet of Pea gravel--which left the breaker box above the gravel---new sump pits were installed to keep the gravel dry---drain piping was not an issue---I didn't ask about the lally columns.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

find out if you can keep the basement. but not have it insured as a "finished" basement. and don't finish the basement. just use it for storage, pool room, or whatever. and when/if it does flood, hopefully move anything upstairs before hand. then just pump out the basement, let it dry. then back to usual.


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## LVDIY (Mar 28, 2011)

As far as I know, finished basements aren't cover by either FEMA or NFIP in case of flooding, so as long as you leave it unfinished, I don't know why it would make a difference.

I would probably call the National Flood Insurance Program (1-888-379-9531) and ask them directly about your situation. They would be able to hopefully give you much better and more specific answers than what we can provide here.

There is a lot of confusion out there in regards to FEMA and Flood insurance, so don't listen to everything you hear on the radio or from your neighbors. Go straight to the source instead!


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies! It doesn't matter if it is finished or empty. FEMA said that since you have a basement; it could fill again with water and cause problems with the entire house. I was told my flood insurance could go up 20% each year for the next 4 years. This would bring my flood insurance to close to $10K per year compared to about $500 if I don't have a basement! I got so much to learn to make a good a decision!


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

My electric panel is in my garage; got very luck there. The water was 1 foot away of hitting it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

When the neighbor filled his basement---the pea gravel was delivered in a ready mix truck---and the shoot was run into a window-----job went fast-----pea gravel is easy to move around----


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm sure prices up there are way higher, but down here after a hurricane one of my customers had the same issue.
It was a single story ranch.
We had Ace House Movers lifted it above the 100 year floor plain, filled in the foundation up to grade level and just added onto the old block foundation so now it's a crawl space instead of a basement.
We also had to add a flood door to the crawl space, it opens when the water rises so the water can rush back out.
Now there are not required to even have flood insurance.

I Tap Coned OSB to the exposed foundation and added several rows of siding below the old siding so the new foundation does not look so out of place.
We also had to add a steel I beam down the middle of the house.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

jlarnai said:


> We have a big basement (28'x33') that got over 5 feet of water with Hurricane Sandy. We got lucky; we had no water in our house. We got the finished basement gutted, cleaned and sprayed for mold. I am still looking into this; but so far it sounds like if we keep the basement our flood insurance rates would go through the roof; which there is no way we can afford. FEMA told me that I need to fill my basement to get my house "FEMA Safe"
> 
> I don't have the slightest clue where to start. Who can I contact? I live in Union Beach, NJ. What is the process? Does the house need to be lifted? I have support beans that run in the middle of the basement. My water and gas lines are down there. Are there any websites I can look at for ideas? Any help would be appreciated.


Ayuh,... If ya go to the Fema website, there's 100s of pages of ways to get yer house, Outa the flood plain,...
Or, ways to make a flood, much more survivable, with much less damages...

I've got 2 houses in that position,... 
1 I'm raisin' 12', the other, I'll just keep payin' the insurance tab on...


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## markaj311 (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm in a flood zone in WNY and I've had all kinds of issues with FEMA and my bank trying to force the most expensive policy on me, I can't even imagine what you're going through. Lose a big part of your home, or pay $10,000 a year in FLOOD INSURANCE? FEMA is insane I don't know where they come up with their rates, but its crazy. I wish you the best of luck, keep us updated.


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for the repsonses! When I called the FEMA phone number (I have called 3 times) all 3 times they tell me that my flood insurance rate is by the level of the basement and not the first floor. My basement is 7' below the new proposed floodplane. 

Last night my wife and I went to our town hall and spoke with a FEMA Flood Mitigation Specialist. He told me that I should be rated at my first floor level. He has been doing this job for years and worked through Katrina. While I was there last night; he called the same number that I called and made believe he was a home owner with a basement. They told him that same thing they told me. He is going to do some research for me and told me to come back in 2 days,

Who Do I believe is correct FEMA or FEMA?

If I do have to get the basement filled; what type of company should I call who woud do this type of job?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

FEMA has a purpose for disaster relief as I understand, since they make emergency methods to provide quick relief, temporary housing and food immediately after a disaster.

I worked for another agency that provided disaster recovery by accessing/processing loans for owners to obtain dirt cheap low interest loans for recovery and mitigation based on what real people would do to recover, rebuild and eliminate future problems. During Katrina, Rita and other disasters, we were in there and told to wear our shirts, hats and identification to not be mistaken for FEMA people that had a different goal. We were happily greeted by home owners that wanted to get back to a real life since many did not have flood insurance for many reasons (some locally politically created). Unfortunately many home owners want to get a cheap loan and divert the money into some remodeling and additions.

Our goal was to identify the damage caused by the disaster a come up with a replacement cost based on what a real home owner would or should do. Our charge was that a home owner with a corner of a roof torn off or cheap vinyl siding stripped off at a corner would want a complete new installation because it was also a visible damage and the roofing or siding may not be able to be matched (fading/weathering) or available. Any furnace or water heater that was exposed to rising water (corrosion/electrical problems) was totaled in the real world and estimated as a full replacement. Any fiberglass exposed to moisture was also totaled because it cannot be re-used. Water inside above 12" was estimated as damage requiring new electrical fixtures, drywall to at least 4' up and complete repainting of the rooms involved. Same applied to landscaping, trees and shrubs for rebuilding. This whole concept is based on rebuilding and correcting site problems by mitigation for future events. It was not a gift for failing to have inadequate insurance.

I am not aware of FEMA having any enforceable "standards" or effects on codes. FEMA does have very good suggestions based on research done or damage to created that have been adopted in some areas as legal code requirements. The "Safe Cell" concept for tornado impact resistance is well founded by research by other professionals and has been adopted by some agencies that have the legal power to make people avoid mistakes. I don't think FEMA has the power or authority set insurance rates, since that is up to the insurers and there choice if they choose to do business in an area with poor preparation on a large scale.

Dick


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

Back in '72 huricane Agnes came thru our area and caused a lot of flooding. Several low lying areas that never saw flooding had 10'+ of water. Areas near the river had extensive flooding that carried a lot of silt and mud into basements. Most people were able to clean them out and get on with life. Others decided that it was not work thi and had them filled in. I know of one house that did this and it was done wrong. They moved the electric service panel out of the basemenr as well as the water and gas meters. Gas was relocated to the outside and the water was located into a closet near the front of the house. What they failed to do however was to address the drain plumbing. Appearantly they left something open, posibly a floor drain or a washing machine hookup. A lot of dirt seems to be getting into the line. Could also be a broken pipe somewhere. They had it scoped but the maze of pipe under the dirt is quite extensive now.
Another issue is the water that migrates into the old basement and can't get out very well. The old basement acts like a dirt filled pool holding water. It was suggested that when they filled it that they remove the old floor but, they did not want to do that work. The house is always musty and the crawlspace alway seems real damp. The dirt almost seems muddy when you feel it.

thinking about how I would aproach this if it were me I would open up several holes in the floor to allow any accumulated water out, fill it with pea gravel and install a sump pit to the bottom just in case. I would cover the gravel with heavy plastic as a vapor barrier and seal it well. I would also consider having the plumbing re routed so that all of the hookups for the various drains are accessable and a cleanout installed somewhere accessable for posible future needs


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## daveplot (Apr 29, 2011)

jlarnai said:


> Thanks for the repsonses! When I called the FEMA phone number (I have called 3 times) all 3 times they tell me that my flood insurance rate is by the level of the basement and not the first floor. My basement is 7' below the new proposed floodplane.
> 
> Last night my wife and I went to our town hall and spoke with a FEMA Flood Mitigation Specialist. He told me that I should be rated at my first floor level. He has been doing this job for years and worked through Katrina. While I was there last night; he called the same number that I called and made believe he was a home owner with a basement. They told him that same thing they told me. He is going to do some research for me and told me to come back in 2 days,
> 
> ...


The FEMA flood manual says the basement floor. See chapter 7 here: http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=6713


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

FEMA confirmed last night that my house is going to be rated at the basement level; which is 7' below the new proposed floodplain in Zone A. They told me that if I don't fill my basement; my flood insurance will be at least $20,000 a year. So now I have to learn what is need to get my basement filled.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

I'd be tempted to lay a floor down over the entrance to the basement and board up the windows and fill the wells so it looks like the basement is gone. Then after the inspection open it all up again but never make a claim for anything in the basement.

Or I'd move. 

It would seem the cost of filling the basement and relocating all the mechanicals would probably cost as much as a few years insurance, at the price you stated.

When we built our house we had to remove some bad soil. They used 3" stone to fill it back up because it was cheaper than any other fill and stays put. But to fill a basement through a window would require a lot of labor. Speaking of that, how can they expect you to completely fill the basement without lifting the house? That last foot or so would be almost impossible to fill.


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

Selling is not a option. I live in Union Beach, NJ; one of the towns that got hid very hard by Hurricane Sandy. Yes; I got very lucky that my house is dry. They have already tore down 3 houses on my block already. Nobody want to buy property in my town; unless you sell really cheap.
It's going to be a wait and see if our government can help.

I think that the flood insurance will do a thorough inspection; so we can't trick them. I am going to have to start pricing it out; even though I know I can't afford. I am so scared and confused what awaits us. There is a lot of people in the same situation!

Who do I need to call to get an estimate?


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## mgp roofing (Aug 15, 2011)

Does anyone in your area have a system like this: http://www.excaveyor.com/ ? I have seen it in action, perfect to get fill into a basement. Its often used when excavating a new basement under an existing house here.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

jlarnai said:


> Who do I need to call to get an estimate?


The contractor that arranged for the 3" stone fill was the concrete guy. So you might start there. An excavator would be next on my list. Then a general contractor. You might hear talk about raising the house. I'd ask whoever will be inspecting the house if you fill to an area where no human can crawl, would that be enough?



jlarnai said:


> It doesn't matter if it is finished or empty. FEMA said that since you have a basement; it could fill again with water and cause problems with the entire house.


What I'm trying to wrap my head around is the logic of that comment. Let's say you completely empty your basement and seal the interior foundation wall to the same code standards as the exterior and concrete up the windows, just as if you were filling it in. 

If the basement fills with water and all electrical panels and devices are above the 7' mark, and all HVAC equipment, ducts and other equipment are above 7' (which you have to do regardless), what problems could happen that wouldn't happen if you filled it?

The water would equalize the outside pressure, so the walls won't cave in. Support columns would be affected similarly, with or without the fill, and if they are metal, you'll probably have to encase them in concrete anyway. 

The concrete sealant would protect the inside walls, just like it does the exterior walls. All electric would be out of the way. Plumbing pipes that are below 7' wouldn't be affected. Submersible sumps, that keep the basement dry in normal circumstances, wouldn't be affected, as long as you have long cords on the pumps and no extension cords.

So I'm wondering how simply emptying the basement and getting anything susceptible to being submerged safely out of harms way could *"cause problems with the entire house."* What am I missing?

Considering the financial hit victims have taken from this disaster, it would seem our government could allow this instead of causing homeowners to spend thousands more dollars, all out of pocket. And if the homeowner re-occupies the basement, they are on their own for the contents.

Maybe it's time to gather up similarly affected homeowners and have a talk with the Gov. If he won't listen, the media sure will, especially if you have a structural engineer backing you up.


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## kay_kay_3233 (Apr 30, 2013)

*Same issue*

I have the same issue with FEMA where my basement is 7' and 4' of that is in the flood zone. I was told if I were to fill it that my flood insurance would go down drastically. I contacted two companies who specialized in basements and they told me that the pressure on the foundation walls would be too much if I were to fill it with either dirt or concrete. Both companies wanted to install drain tiles, a new sump pump and a base layer of concrete (for a mere $12,000). My basement is completely unfinished.....brick walls, gravel/dirt/ and some concrete floors. I do have a sump pump and that has saved me with the hurricanes that I have gone through. However, it seems like the water fills up very fast even if its just a small rain. I am still trying to figure out how to lower my insurance ....... so keep me updated with what you decide or any information you find out.

Amanda


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## jlarnai (Feb 12, 2013)

We are still waiting for the official word on if we can get our flood insurance lowered by just filling it in with 5' of fill or do we have to fill all 8' and raise the house. Nobody still knows!


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

Do you have fire insurance? Just sayin'.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

kay_kay_3233 said:


> I have the same issue with FEMA where my basement is 7' and 4' of that is in the flood zone. I was told if I were to fill it that my flood insurance would go down drastically. *I contacted two companies who specialized in basements and they told me that the pressure on the foundation walls would be too much if I were to fill it with either dirt or concrete.* Both companies wanted to install drain tiles, a new sump pump and a base layer of concrete (for a mere $12,000). My basement is completely unfinished.....brick walls, gravel/dirt/ and some concrete floors. I do have a sump pump and that has saved me with the hurricanes that I have gone through. However, it seems like the water fills up very fast even if its just a small rain. I am still trying to figure out how to lower my insurance ....... so keep me updated with what you decide or any information you find out.
> 
> Amanda


That doesn't make any sense to me, unless I'm mis-understanding something. If you current basement walls have unbalanced fill (dirt only on the outside) I have no idea how balancing the load between the two lateral forces could cause a basement to fail. As a matter of fact, we put balanced fill foundations in all the time, and they take far less re-enforcement than a full basment with un-balanced fill........


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

I'd imagine the kind of fill put into the basement would make a big difference in the pressure against the wall, especially during a flooding situation. 

As for unfilled there's the standing water health hazard problems, and mold to the structure above.


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## ttech (Sep 18, 2008)

If you fill it with gravel till the ceiling is below the Ceiling height needed for code, Would it then be a crawl space?

Then you wouldn't have a basement anymore but a deep crawlspace.


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## PetroSS (Mar 3, 2015)

Did you ever get a definitive answer on filling in your basement and what did you do to correct the issue? I am in Toms River and have the same problem with a walk out basement and I am at a total loss of what to do!


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,.... The OP ain't been back since post #22,....


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

PetroSS said:


> Did you ever get a definitive answer on filling in your basement and what did you do to correct the issue? I am in Toms River and have the same problem with a walk out basement and I am at a total loss of what to do!


Ayuh,.... Any questions you've got for mitigation plans, per Fema, can be answered at Fema's website,...


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

An interesting, sorta-related story: I used to live in Richland, WA, site of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. When the Government built the city in the early 1940s for the Manhattan Project, they put up 1600 "alphabet houses" in just over a year (Google that term and you'll see what I mean). If you didn't work at Hanford, you couldn't live in Richland. Obviously, there were some mistakes made. Sometimes a basement foundation was constructed where a no-basement house was to go. The answer? Fill in the basement with sand and gravel (quite plentiful considering the area is high desert). I owned a "Z" house, which did not come with a basement.

Fast foward 15 years or so, after the town was turned over to local control and all the houses sold to private parties. Those with one of the houses over a filled-in basement wanted them emptied so they could be used. Who did most of it? The local Boy Scouts. For a donation, they'd shovel out all the gravel. Tough way to raise money.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

$20,000 a year, I say cut out the middleman. Install something like this and tell the insurance company where to go.

http://cmisheetpiling.com/


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I am sure you heard the news how the insurance companies are faking the report so they don't have to pay. I'd make sure (lawyers may be needed- do not depend on fema-not negligence, just benign intentional ignorance) your plan has universal acceptance and history of such repairs and pay outs. You may need the Act of God on your side.

Personally, I resent subsidizing your beach front house.


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