# center roof drain clogged after roofer finishes, he's denying responsibility



## shazapple (Jun 30, 2011)

Did the drain on your old roof have a strainer? If it was missing the strainer then some gravel could have washed down the drain over the years. Asphalt and gravel roofs tend to shed water slower than modbit, so you wouldn't notice poor drainage until a new roof was installed. 

Ask to make sure the roofer plugged the drain with a rag while stripping.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jells said:


> The day after he was finished cleaning up, and 5 days after the roof was finished I get a midnight call from a tenant saying there's water pouring from all the ceilings in the center. I get up on the roof and see a "plug" of debris about 2-3 feet down. I get a pipe and clear it, but as it rains the water keeps rising to drain between the pipe and the flanged sleeve he installed. The pipe is hopelessly clogged and I get a 24 hr plumber who cuts hole in the pipe in the basement allowing it to drain. Couple of days later he installs a new section with a cleanout, $1100.
> 
> Roofer's reaction next day: he's suspicious that this happens before he gets his last payment! Like I'd flood my building to rip him off for a few thousand. Like every contractor I've ever hired he had insisted that he get paid before the permit inspection. I agreed as I had more work I needed him to do. He pointed out that it had rained several days before with no flooding.
> 
> ...


This happens a lot more then you think. One of the things we always stress is to make sure the drains are clear. Durring the reroofing process the drain strainer and clamping ring is removed. Then a pipe plug or more commonly a ball of rags is placed in the drain to keep the debris from going in. Once the days work is complete the drain bowl is cleaned and the plug removed. 

You said it rained days before after he completed the work and there was no issues.

Is there a drain strainer? Before or after the reroof.
If there is not why did the roofer not install one (at your cost)?
If there is a strainer why is there that much gravel in the pipes?


With the stuff that came out of the drain pipe it sounds like they didn't plug the drain. Since you mentioned suing it would be a difficult thing to prove he actually allowed the debris in the drain if there was in fact a rain event after the roof work had been completed and the drain didn't clog then.

The most concerning part of all this to me is the fact he didn't just take the cost of the drain repair off the amount you still owe. You said your self you have more work for him and you paid up front. 

I wouldn't allow this guy to work on my buildings again to be honest. I would ask him nicely again to deduct the amount and move on. If he doesn't agree to it, call the licensing board, his insurance company and anyone else you can think of. If it is in fact his fault for the pipe clogging he would also be responsible for any repairs to not only the piping but to the damage it caused when it leaked.

Ad for future reference never ever ever push anything down the drain again, get a shop vac and extensions.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. There was a crappy strainer when I bought the place 2 years ago, because the 4" pipe opening had been narrowed by roofing jobs to less than 2" any debris at all clogged the strainer and caused a pond to form eventually overtopping the roof edge and pouring down the sides of the building. But this roof is 40 or so feet up, it's not like even leaves commonly get on it. And the roofer did not leave a strainer. 

A lot of the debris seemed to be rust flakes and particles from a very old pipe. Likely my attempts to clear it with very long metal channel made that worse. I recognize that vacuuming it out would have been better, but it was 1am, and I was up on the roof in a rainstorm trying to stop my property from being flooded! I still can't believe even a semi-competent roofer could miss that plug, nor that it could form in a couple of days. But maybe in bright daylight it couldn't be sen without a flashlight. He did comment that he would check gutter type drains to see if they were blocked. But not apparently my 4" cast iron.

I did take photos as best I could before I cleared it.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't see a clamping ring and it looks like a insert drain. 

How big is this roof that size a drain looks to be to small.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

1985gt said:


> I don't see a clamping ring and it looks like a insert drain.
> 
> How big is this roof that size a drain looks to be to small.


It's about 1000 ft. I commented to him that by the time he put in the insert and glued in the modbit it was looking more like a 3" opening.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Yikes that's a lot of roof area for one drain. Yes if it was a 4" pipe to begin with the insert would be around 3" what was the reason for the insert? 

If they didn't install a strainer then it's their fault IMO, insert drains come with their own strainers.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

1985gt said:


> Yikes that's a lot of roof area for one drain. Yes if it was a 4" pipe to begin with the insert would be around 3" what was the reason for the insert?
> 
> If they didn't install a strainer then it's their fault IMO, insert drains come with their own strainers.


I think your "insert" is different from what I have. This is simply an aluminum tube with a flange around it. Tube goes in the pipe, modbit goes over the flange and inside the pipe as in the pic.

I dunno, like I said my experience with strainers was bad, debris that would have no problem going down the pipe would cause a lake on the roof. I think they didn't stuff a rag in the pipe during the stripping off of the old roof.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

Insert drains are all basically the same. There should be a clamping ring though. The clamping ring compresses the modbit and that's what creates the seal, if there is not a clamping ring the seal will break free from the flange probably the first winter. 










The strainers area necessary evil. Yes they can get debris built up in them, that's the job so the debris do not go down the pipes and cause clogs. We have various companies we go and do roof maintenance on, this is part of the roof maintenance. 

Part of the issue is the lack of drainage on the roof, this is pretty common on older structures. 

I agree they didn't plug the drain or they didn't take care to clean out the area. 

I would suggest getting them to also install the clamping ring I really hope the drain included one and to install the strainer then just make going on the roof to clean it out a every 2 month project.


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## hotrod351 (Jun 15, 2012)

1/2 ass job of connecting to drain, and yes = where is the clamping ring. its the roofers job to make sure the roof is water tight.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

I don't think that device would fit in the trough set between 2 joists on my roof. I'm still a little confused as to what this "clamping ring" does. If it does not create a seal between the 4" cast iron and the insert it would not have changed the outcome of my situation.

I met again with roofer, despite the roof debris in the trap he utterly denies responsibility and won't even cover the plumber. Not only that, he got hysterical and ethnically insulting when I told him I would wait til the city inspection to pay him the final 20%, as every permit card here tells you to do. I wonder if it will not pass.

I also wonder if I'm hurting myself by not lawyering up and making him pay for the plumber, floor refinishing and plasterwork.


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## Marqed97 (Mar 19, 2011)

At a minimum, despite all else, don't pay until it passes inspection. And I would from here on out record any interactions you have with this nitwit. 

I recently waited an extra 3 weeks to make final payment...didn't have an issue with the contractor, but the delay was between him and the inspector. Finally happened, it passed, and I paid the balance owed. That's how it should work. I wouldn't pay for work that hasn't been inspected (and needs to be).


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jells said:


> I don't think that device would fit in the trough set between 2 joists on my roof. I'm still a little confused as to what this "clamping ring" does. If it does not create a seal between the 4" cast iron and the insert it would not have changed the outcome of my situation.
> 
> I met again with roofer, despite the roof debris in the trap he utterly denies responsibility and won't even cover the plumber. Not only that, he got hysterical and ethnically insulting when I told him I would wait til the city inspection to pay him the final 20%, as every permit card here tells you to do. I wonder if it will not pass.
> 
> I also wonder if I'm hurting myself by not lawyering up and making him pay for the plumber, floor refinishing and plasterwork.



The flange is set on the roof, the tube goes down in to the existing piping. The seal at the bottom is either self expanding or compression type. The clamping ring sandwiches the flange, roof membrane together.

Wait until the roof gets inspected before you give him the remaining money. It might not be a bad idea to get some consultation from a lawyer. 

The roofer if found at fault will be responsible for any damages that has occurred.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Clearing of the drains, and in your case, a new cast Iron roof drain with a cast Iron grille (Dome) should have been installed with a sump receiver. A 24 inch square lead flashing should have been installed along with the roof system and the lead flashing and a target of the MB should have been used in the drain. From your description, I cannot tell if your roof drain is tied into the city storm water system, or into your sanitary sewer system. The latter is prohibited for obvious reasons. The drain in the attached illustration is a type A right angle drain which I have used in situations where the drain conductor has to run between ceiling joists. You should have overflow provision on your roof if you have parapet walls. A single drain in any roof area is dangerous.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

Well Jagans, there's nothing that elaborate up there! Just a hole as you see in the pics. One roofer I priced did mention a cast iron bowl, but he was nearly 3x the price of the one I used, like $26k to do a 1000k ft roof. He also seemed obsessed with fire, saying flame down should be illegal, as should the old tar shingle siding I had, and that there needed to be a cement board substrate on the roof.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

jells said:


> Well Jagans, there's nothing that elaborate up there! Just a hole as you see in the pics. One roofer I priced did mention a cast iron bowl, but he was nearly 3x the price of the one I used, like $26k to do a 1000k ft roof. He also seemed obsessed with fire, saying flame down should be illegal, as should the old tar shingle siding I had, and that there needed to be a cement board substrate on the roof.


Well, 26 dollars a square foot is insane, but I do not know the circumstances, and I do not know what roof system you got. I was showing what you should probably have, without regard to what you DO have. The problem with any type of insert drain is that it cannot withstand any back pressure at all, not that a roof drain should have to do so. A company called Marathon used to make a copper insert drain that had an integral lead ring on the spigot. A special expansion tool was used to expand the lead ring on the inside of the pipe. They worked pretty good as long as you cleaned out the pipe real well and used water block mastic on the ring. What you have to realize is that you probably had a couple of built up roofs with gravel, and in the summer time some bitumen and gravel fell down that pipe and then set up in there. Complete replacement of your cast iron pipe with 4 inch DWV PVC is probably in order. If you have a straight down shot, you can use something like a Zurn Z-100 No-Hub drain and connect it with a fernco or mission coupling. The drain is probably around 230 bucks, but be sure to get a cast iron dome, plastic is worthless, and the sun will destroy it in a couple of years. Stainless hardware is also prudent.

If you are getting back pressure on that POS that you currently have for a drain, you are going to lose your roof, so you may want to have your drain conductor scoped to make sure it is clear.

The roofer that was afraid of fire when using a torch down material on an old wood framed building was right on the money. I will not specify a torched material on such a building. The chance of fire is much too high. You are very lucky. You cannot see it in daylight, but when you trigger a modified torch, a blue flame of about 6 feet long shoots out like an F-16 going full military in afterburner. I would recommend that any roofer reading this go out and trigger a torch at night, you will be amazed, and alarmed.

I am sure that I am going to hear the "Its just residential, not commercial" retort here, so I will answer the way I always do:

Do you think water cares?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jells said:


> Well Jagans, there's nothing that elaborate up there! Just a hole as you see in the pics. One roofer I priced did mention a cast iron bowl, but he was nearly 3x the price of the one I used, like $26k to do a 1000k ft roof. He also seemed obsessed with fire, saying flame down should be illegal, as should the old tar shingle siding I had, and that there needed to be a cement board substrate on the roof.


Not to kick you while your down but you seem to have gotten what you paid for. $260 a sq, I'm guessing it was someone torching on a new cap sheet and calling it a new roof.




jagans said:


> Well, 26 dollars a square foot is insane, but I do not know the circumstances, and I do not know what roof system you got. I was showing what you should probably have, without regard to what you DO have. The problem with any type of insert drain is that it cannot withstand any back pressure at all, not that a roof drain should have to do so. A company called Marathon used to make a copper insert drain that had an integral lead ring on the spigot. A special expansion tool was used to expand the lead ring on the inside of the pipe. They worked pretty good as long as you cleaned out the pipe real well and used water block mastic on the ring. What you have to realize is that you probably had a couple of built up roofs with gravel, and in the summer time some bitumen and gravel fell down that pipe and then set up in there. Complete replacement of your cast iron pipe with 4 inch DWV PVC is probably in order. If you have a straight down shot, you can use something like a Zurn Z-100 No-Hub drain and connect it with a fernco or mission coupling. The drain is probably around 230 bucks, but be sure to get a cast iron dome, plastic is worthless, and the sun will destroy it in a couple of years. Stainless hardware is also prudent.
> 
> If you are getting back pressure on that POS that you currently have for a drain, you are going to lose your roof, so you may want to have your drain conductor scoped to make sure it is clear.
> 
> ...


Spot on with this. I've been pretty clear with my distaste for Torch roofs, for many many reasons why. This is a main concern. Too many people have started to many fires from torch on roofs. A 1 hr fire watch is not always long enough, wood fiber cant strip and plywood will smolder for a long time.


Back to topic. With one drain, one really undersized drain on that roof area every substantial rain you will have issues. That is too much surface area for one 3" drain. Since there is no strainer now all debris will clog up the drain and it will back up, even with a strainer a heavy rain will over whelm your pipings capacity to remove the water. With no clamping ring that will allow water in and a lot of it, all the time. Caulking it is wrong.


If this roof passes an inspection I would honestly consider moving to a different jurisdiction.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Not to kick you while your down but you seem to have gotten what you paid for. $260 a sq, I'm guessing it was someone torching on a new cap sheet and calling it a new roof.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1985GT is right, as usual. You need to have another drain, or at least an overflow drain.

Now, as far a Modified Bitumen roof systems go, consider the following:

The importation of modified bitumen into this country from Europe triggered what can only be regarded as a disaster, because all you need to be able to install modified bitumen is a propane tank and a torch. "Real" roofers had a considerable investment in equipment in kettles, tankers, and hot application equipment. Most also had a commitment to the roofing industry, and belonged to the NRCA, SMACNA, and other professional organizations, and regularly attended educational seminars and schools to constantly upgrade their knowledge. 

Modified Bitumen is sold through roofing supply houses as a "commodity" item, and no training or license is required to be able to buy the product.

All manufacturers have fairly good technical data regarding how their products are to be installed, and I would most definately go to the web sight of the manufacturer of the product that you had installed and look at their installation details. Most of the big names in roofing do not provide system warranties on residential roofs, but you should still insist that the selected manufacturers installation instructions be followed as if you were receiving a system warranty.

Hint: A "Product" warranty is not a "System" warranty.

PS to 1985: We always used to dip our cant strip into hot asphalt as a fire prevention measure. Works good. :thumbsup:


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jagans said:


> 1985GT is right, as usual. You need to have another drain, or at least an overflow drain.
> 
> Now, as far a Modified Bitumen roof systems go, consider the following:
> 
> ...


Once again so much information in a post from Jagans. Most of the manufactures details are very similar, they tend to not stray far from what they know what works. 

Another way to tell a professional roofing contractor from a fly by night, the roof details are done the same way every time, of course dependent on system and length of warranty. For us say on a single ply roof it doesn't matter if it's a 2 year warranty or a 15 year warranty the roof is installed with the same details, 20-30 years are different. While a fair amount of roofing manufactures do not warranty residential roofs a lot of contractors will. We will offer at a max 15 years most of the time 10. Will your roof last 10 years then fail, no it really shouldn't. A word of caution on contractor warranties, they often do not mean squat if the warranty term is longer then the company has been in business. Along with a warranty we also offer a maintenance contract, for a yearly fee of X amount of dollars we will come out once or twice a year to inspect the roof and clear it of debris, this will extend the warranty for up to 10 more years. The best part about it is you pay a few dollars a year and you get gutters/drains cleared out and eyes on the roof see if and when there may be problems.


Jagans, that is a heck of an idea with the cant strip, but a perfectly good waste of a kettle that could be pumping asphalt up to the roof and in to the mop carts. :laughing:


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1985gt said:


> Once again so much information in a post from Jagans. Most of the manufactures details are very similar, they tend to not stray far from what they know what works.
> 
> Another way to tell a professional roofing contractor from a fly by night, the roof details are done the same way every time, of course dependent on system and length of warranty. For us say on a single ply roof it doesn't matter if it's a 2 year warranty or a 15 year warranty the roof is installed with the same details, 20-30 years are different. While a fair amount of roofing manufactures do not warranty residential roofs a lot of contractors will. We will offer at a max 15 years most of the time 10. Will your roof last 10 years then fail, no it really shouldn't. A word of caution on contractor warranties, they often do not mean squat if the warranty term is longer then the company has been in business. Along with a warranty we also offer a maintenance contract, for a yearly fee of X amount of dollars we will come out once or twice a year to inspect the roof and clear it of debris, this will extend the warranty for up to 10 more years. The best part about it is you pay a few dollars a year and you get gutters/drains cleared out and eyes on the roof see if and when there may be problems.
> 
> ...


No arguement there, but it can be done back at the shop under a canopy when your best men need to be kept busy :wink:

We always mopped the first ply or plies anyway, but there were occasions when we could not use a kettle, like a high rise building. I agree with you, though 3 plies of type 4 glass felt with a torched cap makes a heck of a roof, of course, so does 4 plies with gravel surfacing. LOL

By the way, 26 bucks a sq foot is $2,600 a square. The high bidder did not want this job. I wonder what number took it?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jagans said:


> No arguement there, but it can be done back at the shop under a canopy when your best men need to be kept busy :wink:
> 
> We always mopped the first ply or plies anyway, but there were occasions when we could not use a kettle, like a high rise building. I agree with you, though 3 plies of type 4 glass felt with a torched cap makes a heck of a roof, of course, so does 4 plies with gravel surfacing. LOL
> 
> By the way, 26 bucks a sq foot is $2,600 a square. The high bidder did not want this job. I wonder what number took it?



That is true.

Hahaha you will have to forgive me I've been pushing papers pretty hard today.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

1985gt said:


> That is true.
> 
> Hahaha you will have to forgive me I've been pushing papers pretty hard today.


I hope they weren't invoices. LOLOLOL


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Dear OP, I went back and looked at your pictures and it looks like the person you hired actually used an inverted tall cone flashing in your drain. It looks like he has cut down the flow from what was probably 4 inches to about 1.5 inches inside the drain. This cuts your flow area from 12.56 sq. Inches to about 2 square inches. Not good. Also. you mentioned in your first post something about a floor drain. You do not mean to say that your storm water from your roof is connected to a floor drain in your basement do you? That is insane if that is the case, as a clog downstream of the floor drain could flood you out. Better check that out.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jagans said:


> I hope they weren't invoices. LOLOLOL



Oh no I don't pay the bills! I just have to get to the stack that brings money in, So many bids going out these last few weeks and of course stuff we bid months ago we are getting contracts on. I swear I could work 80 hours a week and maybe would be caught up. It crazy enough we are hiring at this time of the year, yes putting on new people at the end of October! I should feel lucky if these are the only things I have to complain about :laughing:


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

Well, the latest chapter, involving city inspectors, is Kafkaesque. Yesterday the roof inspector finally came, and said he didn't know anything about drains, call the plumbing inspectors. Today a plumbing inspector came and said since no plumber did the work there was no plumbing work done because he just jammed a sleeve in, there was nothing for him to be involved in. He then said I should have gotten a better contractor. I actually have an audio recording of this conversation. It's mind blowing. So in my city how the roof is connected to the plumbing is utterly unregulated. I tried to corner him into defining just when a cast iron bowl as Jagans has show is required, but he evaded.

I looked at another bid I had received and that guy had a separate line of $3500 to install the cast iron bowl, in addition to the $27k to do the 1k sq ft roof.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

So the roof inspector doesn't know anything about drains? Part of the reason why I dislike the inspection requirement in some areas. 

I'm not sure exactly what was stated in your contract but it sounds like you may have little recourse now. Unless the contract stated something to the fact of how the drain was going to be replace or how the work was going to be preformed there is not a lot of ground to stand on. I guess you could get a consultant and try and sue but it would cost more then what you would get.

I guess looking to the future on how it will be done the next time would be the next step. If you have troubles with the drain again I'd look at options on getting it fixed and by fixed I mean replaced. and look at extra drainage and overflow drains.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks 1985gt. I don't even think I can safely stiff him for the 20% balance of $2100. Won't he then put a "contractors lien" on my property? How do these liens get resolved? If I wanted to pursue this in small claims, should I pay him first? Or should I just pay and consider it peace of mind that it's over and the roof is probably fine now with the drain cleared. I don't think the suspicion that the sleeve is tapered is correct, it's just an artifact of the photo.

An alternate drain would be a quite a project. Perhaps the easiest would be putting a gutter on the lowest point on the roof edge where it would overflow and a leader to the yard.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

jells said:


> Thanks 1985gt. I don't even think I can safely stiff him for the 20% balance of $2100. Won't he then put a "contractors lien" on my property? How do these liens get resolved? If I wanted to pursue this in small claims, should I pay him first? Or should I just pay and consider it peace of mind that it's over and the roof is probably fine now with the drain cleared. I don't think the suspicion that the sleeve is tapered is correct, it's just an artifact of the photo.
> 
> An alternate drain would be a quite a project. Perhaps the easiest would be putting a gutter on the lowest point on the roof edge where it would overflow and a leader to the yard.


Yes he can lien the property if you don't pay. The piping would be a project adding a drain is fairly simple. A gutter and downspouts is a good idea if the roof is sloped to it.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

jells said:


> Well, the latest chapter, involving city inspectors, is Kafkaesque. Yesterday the roof inspector finally came, and said he didn't know anything about drains, call the plumbing inspectors. Today a plumbing inspector came and said since no plumber did the work there was no plumbing work done because he just jammed a sleeve in, there was nothing for him to be involved in. He then said I should have gotten a better contractor. I actually have an audio recording of this conversation. It's mind blowing. So in my city how the roof is connected to the plumbing is utterly unregulated. I tried to corner him into defining just when a cast iron bowl as Jagans has show is required, but he evaded.
> 
> I looked at another bid I had received and that guy had a separate line of $3500 to install the cast iron bowl, in addition to the $27k to do the 1k sq ft roof.


Well, the plumbing inspector is correct. On commercial projects, the plumbers are responsible for setting the bowls and installing the under-deck clamps. The roofer has to accept the work done by the decking contractor, and the plumber, so that proper drainage results. It is the plumbers responsibility to install the drain bawl and the piping so that expansion and contraction in the system is allowed. You will note that in the drawing I posted, there is a rubber coupling between the Iron nipple in the CI bowl, and the conductor. I once installed 10 retrofit cast iron drain bowls on a large commercial project, and learned, much to my chagrin, that ALL of the PVC Threaded adapters that I screwed into the threaded Cast Iron drain bowls cracked. Why? Because the internally installed PVC "rings" could not deal with the rapid rate of contraction that occurred when a hot CI drain bowl dropped rapidly in temperature due to a thunderstorm.

The bottom line here is that you need to download the selected roof system manufacturers details, and reference them to your contractor and insist that he/she install your roof according to those details. Since most manufacturers follow the details in the National Roofing Contractors Roofing and Waterproofing Manual, you can usually go by NRCA's details.

The picture that you posted was of an inverted cone flashing. This is NOT a roof drain in any way shape or form. 

I insist on a lead flashing in ALL of my roof drains, be they on a BUR, MB, or Single Ply roof. Why? Because over 80% of the failures I see on all of these roofs are at the drains. Installing a lead flashing, and then adhering the membrane to it in a single ply roof distributes the stress in the field sheet over the entire flashing, not simply point loading the compression ring. 

You need a proper roof drain, so I would suggest that you get a good roofer to put one in. If you show your roofer the detail I posted and get a decent price for a CI roof drain, let him install the drain. 

Once again, the problem of sequencing pops up. The new drain should have been the first consideration, not the last. After all, its what gets rid of your storm water.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

So the homeowner is supposed to acquire enough expertise to know whether a properly designed drain is to be installed? What about the ignorant homeowner who doesn't even know there's a wrong way that would flood his building? And that the city inspectors, who are SUPPOSED to be there to protect the homeowners, not just collect fees, would have no interest in how this connection is done? I'm sorry, maybe that's reasonable if I was a GC, but that seems a pretty high bar for a civilian. Most of us hire a roofer a couple of times in our lives, if that.

What I still don't get is how the plumbing inspector can wash his hands of something tied into the plumbing just because it was not done by a plumber. Gas work done by a carpenter sure wouldn't get a shrug, and a boiler that's installed legally by a plumber still gets inspected here by plumbing, electric and fire officials. You say the inverted cone is crap, I belive you, how is there's simply no one at all regulating this??


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

jells said:


> So the homeowner is supposed to acquire enough expertise to know whether a properly designed drain is to be installed? What about the ignorant homeowner who doesn't even know there's a wrong way that would flood his building? And that the city inspectors, who are SUPPOSED to be there to protect the homeowners, not just collect fees, would have no interest in how this connection is done? I'm sorry, maybe that's reasonable if I was a GC, but that seems a pretty high bar for a civilian. Most of us hire a roofer a couple of times in our lives, if that.
> 
> What I still don't get is how the plumbing inspector can wash his hands of something tied into the plumbing just because it was not done by a plumber. Gas work done by a carpenter sure wouldn't get a shrug, and a boiler that's installed legally by a plumber still gets inspected here by plumbing, electric and fire officials. You say the inverted cone is crap, I belive you, how is there's simply no one at all regulating this??


I just took another look at the photos that you posted, and I think you may have been ripped off. It appears to me that there is insulation showing in the picture you took, and we should not be seeing that. Where do you live? How do you know that all of the original roofing was removed? Did you see them taking it off? Do you, or they have pictures of the old roof being removed?

I think you may need a professional out there to do a comprehensive survey. You never said exactly what the makeup of your new roof system is, unless I missed it. All you said was Mod Bit. What was the entire system?


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## aquafab (Nov 20, 2014)

I've researched a lot of under the deck drainage systems, but it looks easy to install for 2nd floor decks.When I realized my roof needed to be repaired, I had several estimates, including Home Depot. the actual roof work is neat and professional. However Darren and crew aren't particularly respectful in the house and caused damage, they ruined my bathroom ceiling which is now full of cracks.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

jagans said:


> I just took another look at the photos that you posted, and I think you may have been ripped off. It appears to me that there is insulation showing in the picture you took, and we should not be seeing that. Where do you live? How do you know that all of the original roofing was removed? Did you see them taking it off? Do you, or they have pictures of the old roof being removed?
> 
> I think you may need a professional out there to do a comprehensive survey. You never said exactly what the makeup of your new roof system is, unless I missed it. All you said was Mod Bit. What was the entire system?


I saw them rip it to the sheathing, and they found the trough was rotted out and needed to be completely rebuilt. the brown in the photo is some kind of lighting artifact, the roofing material is glued down inside the tube. As for the construction, it called for fiberboard, base layer, and Mod Bit. I did not witness the base layer personally. 

Yesterday I paid this loser, even though it twisted my guts. their self righteous bullying and hysteria about having to follow the law and wait till inspection for the final 20% payment was an outrage, never mind the flood incident.

Had there been tenants in the units this would definitely be in court for their personal property damage, but as it is, I could not see going there for a sub small claims amount, primarily refinishing 350 sq ft floor and the $1100 plumbers bill. I fixed the one sheetrock ceiling myself.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

jells said:


> I saw them rip it to the sheathing, and they found the trough was rotted out and needed to be completely rebuilt. the brown in the photo is some kind of lighting artifact, the roofing material is glued down inside the tube. As for the construction, it called for fiberboard, base layer, and Mod Bit. I did not witness the base layer personally.
> 
> Yesterday I paid this loser, even though it twisted my guts. their self righteous bullying and hysteria about having to follow the law and wait till inspection for the final 20% payment was an outrage, never mind the flood incident.
> 
> Had there been tenants in the units this would definitely be in court for their personal property damage, but as it is, I could not see going there for a sub small claims amount, primarily refinishing 350 sq ft floor and the $1100 plumbers bill. I fixed the one sheetrock ceiling myself.


The problem, sir, is that the drain you currently have is not capable of taking any sort of back pressure at all, because it does not have a compression (clamping) ring. It is entirely possible that your current rainwater conductor system is at least partially clogged with debris which has settled to the bottom of your lateral run to your catch basin or street or wherever your rainwater discharges. Furthermore, it is very wise to provide the proper amount of drainage based on your location and the anticipated rainfall in your area. A typical 4 inch conductor has 12.56 square inches of drainage area. From the looks of your drain, you have about 2 square inches, and no strainer, or dome. Additionally you do not have any overflow provision, unless you just did not tell us about that. Frankly, I do not think that your problems are over, from what I can see. You need to address this problem properly, and considering the age of your property, you may just need to replace your drainage system in its entirety. You really should have it scoped, and put in a real drain or at least a Marathon Insert.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

I'm not saying the drain issue is over, just my involvement with this roofer, unless I decide to small claims him. but for your points: the opening at it's narrowest seems to be greater than 3", not as narrow as you fear. How feasible is it to have a competent person cut this flange out and install a CI bowl system or that Marathon insert? Can the CI even be done between 16" joists? But roof overflow is something to address. Is what I described in post 27 possible? 

As for the lateral from the trap to the main, when the plumber cleared the trap I poured a 5 gallon bucket into the 4" drain basically as fast as I could without missing, and there were no problems. It at least appears the trap trapped the solids. If it did clog, at least the basement can't fill, it's street level at the sidewalk. It could fill a few inches, and I might lose the water heater, which was not installed on blocks (before my ownership).


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

jells said:


> I'm not saying the drain issue is over, just my involvement with this roofer, unless I decide to small claims him. but for your points: the opening at it's narrowest seems to be greater than 3", not as narrow as you fear. How feasible is it to have a competent person cut this flange out and install a CI bowl system or that Marathon insert? Can the CI even be done between 16" joists? But roof overflow is something to address. Is what I described in post 27 possible?
> 
> As for the lateral from the trap to the main, when the plumber cleared the trap I poured a 5 gallon bucket into the 4" drain basically as fast as I could without missing, and there were no problems. It at least appears the trap trapped the solids. If it did clog, at least the basement can't fill, it's street level at the sidewalk. It could fill a few inches, and I might lose the water heater, which was not installed on blocks (before my ownership).


A five gallon bucket does not even begin to mimic a torrential downpour. You do not know if your conductor from roof to grade is backing up with that amount of water. As I mentioned before, roofing is sequential, so it is best to install t your drain bowl first, and sump it properly. This requires some insulation so you can install tapered edge around the drain. Most compression rings are about an inch high so some insulation is needed to afford a sump. You can use a Marathon insert, but I really do not like inserts at all, because they reduce the cross section of the outlet, and your seal to the down pipe is always questionable. If you have to use an insert, make sure you wire wheel out the inside of the pipe, and use water cut off above the lead seal on the drain. The flange on both sides must be primed with D-41 Asphalt Primer, and set in modified cement, and then double stripped in Most guys use a target torched in as a first stripping ply, and then I would strip in the edge with 6 inch asphalt saturated fabric and modified cement. Prime wherever you strip or use cement. Henry makes a spray primer that is great for stuff like this.

Good Luck.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

Let's see the actual estimate......
I'm willing to bet that drain is not included....
I would not put a warranty on someone Else's work. A go over is a go over..... I would have sealed it down to the drain so water couldn't penetrate the layers.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Lawyer and if paying retainer, will go over what you may recover from the roofer. But show your commitment to pursue your case.
I'd record all talks with the roofer and make plenty of evidence records. Send written letters and emails to the roofer. Pay for signed receipt. Get a statement from your tenant. Record all repairs. Do not become emotional, but it's ok if the roofer becomes one, lol.

If town inspector passes the work, which is based on minimum visual inspection (and not guessing if the drain was plugged at the time), you may have to pay up and go on with your life.


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## jells (Oct 21, 2014)

carpdad said:


> Lawyer and if paying retainer, will go over what you may recover from the roofer. But show your commitment to pursue your case.
> I'd record all talks with the roofer and make plenty of evidence records. Send written letters and emails to the roofer. Pay for signed receipt. Get a statement from your tenant. Record all repairs. Do not become emotional, but it's ok if the roofer becomes one, lol.
> 
> If town inspector passes the work, which is based on minimum visual inspection (and not guessing if the drain was plugged at the time), you may have to pay up and go on with your life.


I've paid, as neither of the lame inspectors would admit being responsible for regulating the drain connection.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

:thumbsup:
Town inspector is a job, not a vocation. They are also entrenched in the local culture.:laughing:


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