# Comparing Replacement Windows



## davethebuilder

As you are not experienced in window installation suggest you paya professional to install for you.

The reason: Windows seal your house from the weather, they provide ventilation and light basically they are an integral part of a living space.

To have the windows leak water, draw wind and possibly not function correctly, will be more costly for you to repair later, let alone put up with the potential problems!

Do you get a foot doctor to check your faulty heart because its cheaper!!


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## Amycat

*caulking*

Would you say that putting a bead of caulk around the window's exterior is necessary, to create a seal between the window and the house, is necessary? That would require me to get a ladder, if I did the installation myself. However, I haven't heard anyone say that this is included in a paid-for installation.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

I'd suggest staying away from the American Craftsman windows for this particular installation. They are lower quality windows. They serve a purpose; for projects on a lower-end budget.

My Solid suggestion, is to find a reputable, experienced, and Licensed Contractor to do the installations. Follow thru on all the checks, refences, background, etc...

I suggest this "over" using any Big Home Improvement Store - Service installations for a number of reasons.

Here are a few of the reasons:

1. An independent Licensed Contractor will provide you with a higher quality installation.

2. Hiring an independant Licensed Contractor will provide better reassurance, that the installation will be done correctly. 

The Big Home Improvement Store "contractors" are paid by the Window Installation. That means they rush the jobs, to do the installationj as quickly as possible, to increase their profit margin. They are less likely to inform you of issues during the installation, and are more likely, to "skip over" and "ignore" problems, in order to get the work down, and get paid. 
Additionally, many of the Big Box - installers (laborers) are paid less, and thus have less experience (sometimes even none), when it comes to proper window installation, and carpentry skills. 
By paying the workers less, the experience and skill level of work force (installers) = goes down.

3. An Independant Licensed Contractor will take the job more personally, and there will be a higher level of pride, and workmanship. 
Workmanship, Craftsmanship, & Carpentry details, are a big issue (lack of those points), when it comes to the Big Box Store window installations = and that's a fact.


Also:



Amycat said:


> Any recommendations?


 *Simonton* makes a very good window. Quality at a reasonable price.

Company link: http://www.simonton.com/



Amycat said:


> I plan on contacting more window companies.


Good, you should do that.


Here are some Web Links, in connection with the points being disussed in this Thread:

More information (in a nutshell) on the Federal Energy Tax Credits to installing New Windows. I am primarily posting this link for the benefit of members and readers that are not familiar with this Gvt program: 

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/108223

List of the Major Window Manufacturers:

http://www.replacement-windows.com/top-100-manufacturers.php

Good Luck!


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## oberon

Before you take the step of replacing your windows, I might ask why you want to change them?

Are the old ones in very poor shape?


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## Amycat

oberon said:


> Before you take the step of replacing your windows, I might ask why you want to change them?
> 
> Are the old ones in very poor shape?



They are double hung, single pane, with storm windows. Almost all the windows open to their intended maximum with a thunk or two. But most are loose, rattly, and they they are not going to help much for keeping my heating bills low.They also just plain look ugly with all the old paint on the mullions.


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## Just Bill

Big box windows tend to be inexpensive and "cheap", not somehting you will be happy with over the long haul, and their installation is often below par. For better quality, check a local lumberyard, they generally represent better windows. You don't say where you are located, but I have been installing replacement windows by Viwinco for probably 20 yrs. Excellent product, excellent service if needed, a warranty that will probably be there if needed. Too many replacement window companies are long gone and their 'lifetime' warranties with them.

Look for windows with a glass U factor of <.29, the lower the number the better. That qualifies for the government tax credit for 2009.

You will get a lot of sale pressure that the windows will pay for themselves in savings. That is partially true, but it will take a long time. A quality window properly installed sealing air spaces and gaps, will probaly save you 25-30% over your old single glazed windows. Do the math, if you have a 25% saving on your fuel bill and it is $1000 for the year, the savings is $250. Not chicken feed, but for 10 windows costing $4000-6000 total, you can see it will take a while to "pay for themselves". The bigest sales point is this, your home will be quieter, and more comfortable, since cold drafts are nearly eliminated. Furniture/rug fading due to suns UV rays is reduced by about 90%.


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## Amycat

I am in Rhode Island. Winters are not as cold as where I grew up in Maine but there are still 4 seasons.

I'm fairly sure that I want to pay someone for installation -- probably little is absolutely true in the window frames, and the stops could probably be replaced entirely. I will go with a reputable brand of window rather than a fly-by-night operation. I'm still finding it hard to compare apples to apples -- each company (Anderson, Pella, Simonton, Alside, etc.) seems to have different models with different features at different costs. The trick will be finding an installer with a good reputation I guess.

The company that quoted me $350 per window for a minimum of 10 would be installing Alside triple-glazed with a U factor of .21.

I'm seeing models described as "welded" and "mechanical" sash/frame. Does mechanical means screwed together? I'm assuming welded is better.


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## oberon

Amycat said:


> They are double hung, single pane, with storm windows. Almost all the windows open to their intended maximum with a thunk or two. But most are loose, rattly, and they they are not going to help much for keeping my heating bills low.They also just plain look ugly with all the old paint on the mullions.


 
Are you looking at full frame replacements or inserts? 

Are you thinking about vinyl, wood, or fiberglass for sash/frame material?

I would suggest that before you invest in replacement windows it might be worth while to look at other areas that may need energy performance upgrade before you invest in new windows. 

As Just Bill pointed out, replacing your current windows with a cheap replacement might end up costing you a good bit more than not replacing your windows at all.


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## Amycat

I am interested in vinyl replacement not full frame.

The house has a good layer of cellulose blown into the attic. Windows will be the biggest heat losers.


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## old man

*replacement windows*

Here is a company that has excellent reviews and great customer sevice
*http://www.gorell.com/index.htm*


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## diy'er on LI

When I asked 3 different highly regarded siding and window people to give us estimates on our home... all three insisted on installing andersen windows.

For the tax credit, however, only the andersen 400 windows with the UV coated glass ("sunglass") qualify. 

Other than those (fairly expensive windows) and Marvin (even more $$), Pella were the only ones they'd consider.... 

hope this helps....


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## Amycat

I met with the guy who runs the company that installs the Alside windows. He charges $325 per window to install a double-glazed (.30) and $350 per window to install triple glazed (.21).

I'm going to get an estimate from another local company that I think uses Harvey or Simonton windows.


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## oldfrt

Amycat said:


> I met with the guy who runs the company that installs the Alside windows. He charges $325 per window to install a double-glazed (.30) and $350 per window to install triple glazed (.21).
> 
> I'm going to get an estimate from another local company that I think uses Harvey or Simonton windows.


 I have personally installed the Harvey units for about 15 years.Their service dept.has been very responsive on the few callbacks that I've had.


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## EmilyP

Amycat said:


> I am interested in vinyl replacement not full frame.
> 
> The house has a good layer of cellulose blown into the attic. Windows will be the biggest heat losers.


 
I"d stay away from Pella THerma Star windows. They use double sided tape to hold in their glass. Not a good sealled system. Also, paper thin exterior glazing stops, weep holes in frames -idea for bug nests, jamb screw adjustment -there are much better windows than Pella why do people think they make a good product- it's average at best.
For vinyl window companies:
Siminton
Allside
Great Lakes
Silver Line 9500/8500 Series 


Vinyl is vinyl (plastic)any way-most companies are here today and gone tomorrow- be sure to buy a national brand name-most vinyl companies claim to have the best window- when most are the same- oh yeah watch and read the fine print on warranties - good luck-
I like Marvin and Andersen Insert Windows as replacements- wood for the most part will last longer and you can get parts for most -good luck-


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## Amycat

Estimate #1: Alside windows, $325 each for double-glazed (U-factor .30) and $350 each for triple-glazed (U-factor .21). Minimum order = 10 windows.

Got estimate #2 today: Stergis double-glazed (U-factor .30) at $300 each. Minimum order = 6 windows. Fusion-welded and all stainless steel hardware inside.

For estimate #2, the sales guy was talking about wind resistance and said the Stergis windows are DP 50. I don't know if that's good or bad compared to other windows, but he did say these windows qualify for the tax credit.

Anyone have any comments on Stergis?

I have a Harvey installer scheduled to come by to give me an estimate tomorrow and a Champion installer is coming next week.

The Stergis model for estimate #2 is the Belmont.


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## oldfrt

Amycat said:


> I have a Harvey installer scheduled to come by to give me an estimate tomorrow and a Champion installer is coming next week.
> 
> The Stergis model for estimate #2 is the Belmont.


There are a few grades in The Harvey Units.

The ' Classic ' is pretty much the middle of the road and best bang for the buck.
They also offer the fuse welded frames and sash.Ask him about his service policy.


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## Amycat

Got estimate #3 today:

Harvey Classics that meet the tax credit standard (not sure what the DP is): $360 per window, installed.

The estimate seems high.


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## fenestrationman

The DP rating is the performance criteria for windows and doors. Most reputable window manufacturers test their windows and doors for air and water infiltration along with structural and forced entry testing.
I believe you are in the Rhode Island area. The wind zone there is between 110 and 120 mph. I would suggest at least a DP rating of 35 to 40. You are safe with the DP50 that was mentioned.
Hope this helps.


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## oldfrt

Amycat said:


> Got estimate #3 today:
> 
> Harvey Classics that meet the tax credit standard (not sure what the DP is): $360 per window, installed.
> 
> The estimate seems high.


 
We used to install these windows for around $375.
The price will always be dependent on the components that are added to the unit sa welded frames and sash/grids/double locks/lowE/Argon/full or half screens.Their warranty service is great so you may consider that as an asset.
Make sure all the windows you compare pricewise have the same components to make a fair comparison.
Check references for any installer you use also for peace of mind.Always better to be safe before than be sorry later.
Also some installers may include wrapping the exterior casings as part of the price.


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## Amycat

Does "wrapping the exterior casings" mean the same as "capping"? The rep from the company that is selling the Stergis/Alliance Belmont windows said capping was included.

All my estimates are for grids in the top sash, none on the bottom, federal tax credit eligible, etc.

What do you think of this --

Salesman #1 came inside my house, counted windows, but did not measure.

Sales rep #2 came inside house and measured every window.

Sales rep #3 did not come inside, supposedly measured from outside when I wasn't home.

All my windows are fairly standard size -- nothing really large.


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## oldfrt

Amycat said:


> Does "wrapping the exterior casings" mean the same as "capping"? The rep from the company that is selling the Stergis/Alliance Belmont windows said capping was included.
> 
> All my estimates are for grids in the top sash, none on the bottom, federal tax credit eligible, etc.
> 
> What do you think of this --
> 
> Salesman #1 came inside my house, counted windows, but did not measure.
> 
> Sales rep #2 came inside house and measured every window.
> 
> Sales rep #3 did not come inside, supposedly measured from outside when I wasn't home.
> 
> All my windows are fairly standard size -- nothing really large.


 Yes caping is the same as wraping,different areas,different terms.

I like salesman #2,seeing he took the time to measure each window,but this shouldn't be a deal breaker.

If the installer is the same person who showed up to give you a price,than he would be working on a lower overhead and IMO is more apt to do a good job,but ask for and check references.
Ask for years in business,past jobs,insurance certificates,etc.


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## Amycat

The people I've been dealing with work for/own companies that do their own installations.

#2 was also the only one that provided a long list of references, unasked. This particular company has gone from a rent-a-space storage facility to a 25,000 square foot showroom/warehouse over the last 25 years.

The others also seem reputable. I always ask who does the work -- full-time employees or subcontracted/day labor crews.


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## djcOhio

*Window Replacement*

Hi Amy,

I too am looking at replacing old wood double hung windows in my home and find that all the various choices make the selection process confusing.

Since this is a significant investment, I'm not planning on trying to do the work myself, but plan on hiring the installation work probably by the manufacturer.

I've selected vinyl instead of fiberglass due to the costs, but I am still wondering whether or not insulated vinyl is worth the extra money.

The installer I'm thinking about is looking to use a non-metal spacer (Super Spacer - his term), and is looking to provide Owens-Corning insulation rather than foam.

Does anyone in the community have input regarding the two items above?

Thank you for your input and have a great Labor Day weekend!:thumbup:


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## Amycat

Owens-Corning meaning the pink stuff?


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## oldfrt

djcOhio said:


> Hi Amy,
> 
> I too am looking at replacing old wood double hung windows in my home and find that all the various choices make the selection process confusing.
> 
> Since this is a significant investment, I'm not planning on trying to do the work myself, but plan on hiring the installation work probably by the manufacturer.
> 
> I've selected vinyl instead of fiberglass due to the costs, but I am still wondering whether or not insulated vinyl is worth the extra money.
> 
> The installer I'm thinking about is looking to use a non-metal spacer (Super Spacer - his term), and is looking to provide Owens-Corning insulation rather than foam.
> 
> Does anyone in the community have input regarding the two items above?
> 
> Thank you for your input and have a great Labor Day weekend!:thumbup:


 
The non metal spacer is a fairly recent substitute for the older method of making insulated glass.
Some call it warm edge glazing,and is known to cut down on heat loss through convection and because of it's properties extends the life of the panels.
The Owen -Corning is probably being used to insulate around the perimeter of the unit and is a matter of choice by each installer.
Some claim the foam is better,but we have used an O-C equivalent for years without any drawbacks.


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## Amycat

Estimate #4: Champion windows, $525 installed. This window has a U-factor and SGHC similar to the Alside triple glazed. The window has weep holes -- any idea if this method is good or bad for drainage?

I think I need to go to the showroom and examine the Stergis/Alliance Belmont more closely.

Given that this is a 90 year old house without insulation in the walls, I don't think it's cost effective to pay for anything more efficient than what's required for the federal tax credit. Does this sound logical?


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## djcOhio

*Window Replacement*

Owens-Coring is the pink stuff. Champion quoted a foam they claimed was proprietary to their company, but was willing to fill in with O-C the cavities where the weights were from the original windows. So far, they have come in at about $570, DH mostly, and 3 sliders, two of which were significant sizes. Also it is a tan color and that was slightly more.

I think I like the Champion window better, but am concerned with their warranty - lifetime for me, but only 1 year for anyone that purchases the home. They also have an "out" in their warranty regarding condensation, where as WindowNation pushes their "super spacer" preventing condensation issues.

WindowNation (Soft-lite distributor) is at about $600 per window, but they are trying to push a trim that is called a Nomar-5000.

So many decisions, so little money! :huh:


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## integlikewhoa

Well you know where near me but here in California I have personally upgraded my own wooden double hung single pain windows to vinyl. 

I used Milgard vinyl double hung replacement windows. I used a slope sill replacement type. It was easy for me. My local supplier www.doorandwindowplus.com charged me around 180.00 for a 4ft tall 3 foot wide double hung retrofit milgard window. They charge 110.00 per window for installation. I installed 4 in around 5-6 hours without ever doing it before. You need to have some tools tho. If you have a chop saw and possibly a table saw ( I had to cut down some custom sized stops) and can use a caulking gun and install molding your good. 

Also 1stwindows.com will give you quick online prices after you pick your type and size of milgard window. Hope this helps.


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## Amycat

I've made the decision to pay for an installation because of lack of tools and time. My house has over 30 windows in it, so even though I'm not looking to replace all of them at the same time, it would still take me many weekends to get a significant part of the house completed.

Is capping that critical? Isn't it an extra layer over the exterior edge of the window to help prevent wind/rain penetration? I live in southern New England, so there's a winter, but I'm not on the ocean so no constant wind.

Since all the windows I'm looking at qualify for federal tax credit, I'm trying to figure out why two windows with the same energy efficiency (for example, the Champion at $525 vs. the Alside 3-glazed at $350) are priced differently. 

The price on the Stergis Belmont includes capping. The Alside installer (estimate #1) charges $40 per window for capping. So it appears that when comparing apples to apples, the Alside 2-glazed is $365 and the Stergis Belmont is $300. Again a significant price difference.


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## my5sons

Amycat said:


> I've made the decision to pay for an installation because of lack of tools and time. My house has over 30 windows in it, so even though I'm not looking to replace all of them at the same time, it would still take me many weekends to get a significant part of the house completed.
> 
> Is capping that critical? Isn't it an extra layer over the exterior edge of the window to help prevent wind/rain penetration? I live in southern New England, so there's a winter, but I'm not on the ocean so no constant wind.
> 
> Since all the windows I'm looking at qualify for federal tax credit, I'm trying to figure out why two windows with the same energy efficiency (for example, the Champion at $525 vs. the Alside 3-glazed at $350) are priced differently.
> 
> The price on the Stergis Belmont includes capping. The Alside installer (estimate #1) charges $40 per window for capping. So it appears that when comparing apples to apples, the Alside 2-glazed is $365 and the Stergis Belmont is $300. Again a significant price difference.


My opinion only, stay away from Champion. My parents and a friend both used Champion after a good sales pitch and dog and pony show, both regret with all the issues they have had. Besides the over-priced windows and false claims (block 150% of UV rays and lower your heating bills by 400% etc *exaggerating a bit*  ), it will require your congressman to get them to honor a warranty.


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## Amycat

Now I"m totally confused. I spoke with a colleague who does a lot of architectural preservation work, and he sent me the following:

"I'd never use a vinyl replacement window, not because I'm a snob (although I am) but because I've yet to meet a manufacturer who'll guarantee me more than 10-15 years (AT MOST) on the product. As you no doubt know, the product consists of two layers of glass with something like argon pumped between them. As the window goes up and down and up and down, the gasket sealing the glass begins to fail. This results in almost certain clouding (and a gradual tailing off of the e-value.) So you're stuck with windows that are clouded and of dubious weather-tightness.

I think you get more bang for the buck by having the original windows (which of course, look nicer) reglazed. Then spend the money on a high-end storm system, properly caulked.

If you do go with a replacement window, then go with a clad unit (a Marvin, maybe) or a wood one with the sill. Even the most expensive windows you list here are frankly sh!t and they will eventually ding and look cheap."


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## oldfrt

Amycat said:


> Now I"m totally confused. I spoke with a colleague who does a lot of architectural preservation work, and he sent me the following:
> 
> "I'd never use a vinyl replacement window, not because I'm a snob (although I am) but because I've yet to meet a manufacturer who'll guarantee me more than 10-15 years (AT MOST) on the product. As you no doubt know, the product consists of two layers of glass with something like argon pumped between them. As the window goes up and down and up and down, the gasket sealing the glass begins to fail. This results in almost certain clouding (and a gradual tailing off of the e-value.) So you're stuck with windows that are clouded and of dubious weather-tightness.
> 
> I think you get more bang for the buck by having the original windows (which of course, look nicer) reglazed. Then spend the money on a high-end storm system, properly caulked.
> 
> If you do go with a replacement window, then go with a clad unit (a Marvin, maybe) or a wood one with the sill. Even the most expensive windows you list here are frankly sh!t and they will eventually ding and look cheap."


Well,he admitted to being a snob and his remarks didn't prove him wrong!

Amycat,
If you add up the costs of reglazing and painting all your windows,and install storm units you'll have spent about as much as replacing the units,and have twice as much glass to clean.
Wood replacements,although more historically correct will set you back almost twice the cost of most vinyl replacements.
If your concerned about resale value on your home,think about what you would want to find if you were looking to buy another house.
Most people want maintainence free.

For whatever reason,Mr." Architectural preservation work" is not stating facts:
These windows do not ding.
Warranty is for 20 years.
All windows will have wear,(going up and down)
especially old wood windows that will eventually need reglazing ,recaulking,and paint,which is an added expense.

Is your home in a Historical District?If not,bang for the buck is mute point.

Inre;
Given that this is a 90 year old house without insulation in the walls, I don't think it's cost effective to pay for anything more efficient than what's required for the federal tax credit. Does this sound logical? 

This is a good question if you don't have any insulation in the walls.
If there's a way to have it installed,it should be a consideration.
What about insulation in the ceiling?

Sequence should be:
Ceilings first/R40
Walls next/fill with blown in.
Windows and doors last.
If your windows have a signifigant breeze coming through,they may be done for comfort,but heat loss will not be greatly reduced because of the uninsulated areas.
The tax credit also applies to insulation if that is a consideration.

Another good point that all my clients add is that outside noise is signifigantly reduced with the replacement windows,even over old windows that had storms.

It's great to get opinions,especially when making a sizable purchase,but this guy's nose seems to be so far up in the air ,that he can't see what's going on around him.


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## Amycat

Thank you for your comments. I've seen the prices of the wood replacement windows and they are just not financially feasible. I don't have that kind of money.

What you say about the cost/maintenance of the reglazing and new storm units option sounds very logical. There's also the time aspect -- as I indicated before, I'm not willing to spend every weekend for the next several months doing nothing but reglazing windows. Besides, my wife would kill me.

My home is not in a historic district.

While better energy efficiency is important to me (I have steam heat - expensive), cosmetics are also a consideration. My windows are not the worst I've ever seen, but they have layers of (flaking) paint, rattle, some get stuck when moved 6 inches up, and the glazing is breaking off. Though I would like to stay in this house for 20 years or more, I think replacement windows would combine lower utility bills starting now with higher resale value if I'm forced to sell in the future.

Also -- do you think a vinyl replacement window has a lifetime of more than 20 years? Do they typically have seal failure right after the warranty expires?


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## oldfrt

Amycat,

I hope you don't mind,but what your colleague told you hit a nerve,so I posted his remarks in the Contractors Forum to get some opinions from other people that sell and install windows.
Here's the link so you can see what they say:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f33/biased-opinion-fact-64621/

I gotta warn you,there are some jokers over there.
You'll see what I mean!


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## my5sons

Sometimes people repeat what they overhear in a conversation (right or wrong). Pretty soon, it becomes fact to them and anyone else they tell it to. Most people don't do their own research... You are like me Amy, I overanalyze to the point that I practically get an ulcer. Investigate, but don't kill yourself trying to make a window purchase!


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## Amycat

Doing some further investigation, it looks like Alside Excalibur and UltraMaxx models have a snap-on sill. Bad?

Also there is metal reinforcement in the rail where the sashes meet. I would expect a vinyl window to be constructed so that it will stay true without metal innards. Am I wrong here?

I'm going to look for a local Simonton installer.

I managed to answer some of my own questions by going to the showroom of the company that gave me estimate #2. The Alliance/Stergis Belmont is not a low profile window -- it looks very boxy. The sizable vinyl means there's no need for metal reinforcement.

This company sells an Associated Materials Inc (AMI) window that is the equivalent of the AMI Alside Excalibur. It's not boxy ooking like the Stergis Belmont or the Alside Centurion, and the company sells it for $50 less than #1 is selling the Excalibur.


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## oberon

Amycat said:


> Now I"m totally confused. I spoke with a colleague who does a lot of architectural preservation work, and he sent me the following:
> 
> "I'd never use a vinyl replacement window, not because I'm a snob (although I am) but because I've yet to meet a manufacturer who'll guarantee me more than 10-15 years (AT MOST) on the product. As you no doubt know, the product consists of two layers of glass with something like argon pumped between them. As the window goes up and down and up and down, the gasket sealing the glass begins to fail. This results in almost certain clouding (and a gradual tailing off of the e-value.) So you're stuck with windows that are clouded and of dubious weather-tightness.
> 
> I think you get more bang for the buck by having the original windows (which of course, look nicer) reglazed. Then spend the money on a high-end storm system, properly caulked.
> 
> If you do go with a replacement window, then go with a clad unit (a Marvin, maybe) or a wood one with the sill. Even the most expensive windows you list here are frankly sh!t and they will eventually ding and look cheap."


 
Amycat,

Although like a few other folks here, I suggested in an earlier post that you consider renovation of the existing windws as a cost effective alternative to replacement, I did not do it because I have the same opinion as your colleague. 

Meaning no disrespect to him, but based on his comments, he appears to know very little about windows or window performance.


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## Amycat

Amycat said:


> What you say about the cost/maintenance of the reglazing and new storm units option sounds very logical. There's also the time aspect -- as I indicated before, I'm not willing to spend every weekend for the next several months doing nothing but reglazing windows. Besides, my wife would kill me.
> 
> ----
> 
> While better energy efficiency is important to me (I have steam heat - expensive), cosmetics are also a consideration. My windows are not the worst I've ever seen, but they have layers of (flaking) paint, rattle, some get stuck when moved 6 inches up, and the glazing is breaking off. Though I would like to stay in this house for 20 years or more, I think replacement windows would combine lower utility bills starting now with higher resale value if I'm forced to sell in the future.


Oberon -- do you think I'm off base with my last sentence above? I definitely don't have the time to take apart some windows for the scrape/strip, repaint and reglaze process. Would hiring someone to do this for me save me money? I have no idea how much someone who does this kind of work or how much a "super storm window system" costs.


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## oldfrt

Installed,a storm window may cost close to $150/ea,then add labor to remove,reglaze,prime,paint,and reinstall old sash,probably close to cost of Vinyl replacements.
You won't qualify for tax credit,you'll have twice as much glass to clean,it will be harder to clean glass,and you won't get the performance of qualifying windows,and you still have to maintain glazing and paint.
In dollars vs.sense,I'd replace for maintainence reasons alone.


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## Amycat

Thanks. I do want to point out, in case anyone missed it in my original posts, that the existing windows DO have storm windows, but they are the usual regular glass, aluminum-framed kind on the exterior. Same as the house I grew up in 35 years ago. Yes, they minimize air transfer between the inside and outside. But they are not airtight nor do they or the original windows have lowE glass, etc.

I found a company called Innerglass that makes an "interior storm window" that pops in and out of the window opening from the inside. For the size of windows in my house, these things would run $170-$220 per window.

I'm editing this post to add the following: the previous owner said she'd burn 6 cords of wood each winter in the woodstove insert in the living room to avoid using the gas boiler/steam heat. She said that if she kept the doors to the upstairs rooms open, the upstairs was livable. Close a door though and the room would get too cold.


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## oldfrt

I keep going back to the claim in your OP;

* I will be getting windows that qualify for the tax **credit** no matter what. I live in southern New England.*

And wonder why you keep searching for alternatives for your windows that will not fit this statement.
Storms of any kind will not qualify for tax credit.The windows have to meet min Federal guidelines to be eligible.


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## Amycat

Sorry, the reference to the tax credit was for vinyl replacement windows. Some of the companies/contractors I've spoken with offer a variety of windows, with low end models that don't meet the tax credit requirements.


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## Scuba_Dave

I'd insulate the walls before I worried about the windows too much
Do you have updated wiring or older - any knob & tube?

I went with new Anderson windows since I am residing the whole house


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## oberon

Okay, so anyone else ever have the problem of logging in and writing a reply only to be told when you are posting that you aren't logged in and your reply ends up lost somewhere in the aether? 

One day I am going to remember to do a copy _before_ I hit the "submit reply" button just in case.

Amycat,

I can fully appreciate that you don't want to refurbish your windows yourself. It can be one heck-of-a-lot of work and it can take a lot longer than a few weekends. There are stories on some of the restoration sites of people taking years to finish refurbishing a housefull of windows. I don't think that you are off base in the least.

It is possible to be able to find someone to refurbish the windows for you, but it could be difficult and it is entirely possible that the cost could exceed the cost of replacements without the advantage of the rebate, and with less of an improvemet in performance. 

What your colleague said about replacement windows is pretty much the mantra in the restoration world. Many (most? all?) restoration folks will tell you that no matter what you do new windows can never equal the energy performance of refurbished single pane original windows with storms. The fact that they are wrong doesn't seems to matter.

However, while replacement windows may have better performance numbers, the cost of the replacement windows versus the improvement in energy performance (depending on quality, options, etc), may not be justified if your primary consideration is cost savings. 

Thus my comments that restoring your original windows and either restoring or adding new (good) storms may be a cost effective alternative to replacement. And there are also the potential architectural considerations when replacing windows in an older home like yours.

And as several folks have mentioned, replacing windows without addressing several other energy performance issues may result in very little overall energy savings if the windows aren't the primary energy drain. You may end up disappointed when you calculate the actual cost savings. 

Are you looking at full frame replacements or inserts?


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## Scuba_Dave

oberon said:


> Many (most? all?) restoration folks will tell you that no matter what you do new windows can never equal the energy performance of refurbished single pane original windows with storms. The fact that they are wrong doesn't seems to matter


I'm not sure where you get that information, provide a link if you have one

The Data I have seen:



> David Martin, president of Allied Window, Inc. in Cincinnati, OH, says that energy loss through a window opening can be reduced by nearly 50% when a storm window is installed. “Glazing materials with added performance features—such as a low-e coating—can reduce the U-value even further, but at least 80% of the [nearly 50%] energy savings comes from having the basic storm window in place,” he says.
> Martin adds, “The U-value of a standard single pane, wooden, double hung window is about 1.12. The addition of a storm window will reduce that U-value to about .50 to .58, depending on the type of storm window which is used.”
> 
> Research for this article included information from Martin (www.alliedwindow.com), Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL), and the Efficient Windows Collaborative (www.efficientwindows.org). The LBNL study cited can be found at http://repositories.cdlib.org/lbnl/LBNL-51453/.


That doesn't even come close to the .30 (or lower) of new energy saving windows
And many people in really cold areas will add a storm on a double pane window. I would only consider single pane if REQUIRED by a Historic District ruling


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## Amycat

Replacement windows would be inserts, not full frame.

Architecturally I am under no real constraints. Almost every house on this block (all 70-100 years old) has replacement windows. The houses across the street have vinyl. My neighbor on one side has older (1970s?) double-pane windows with metal frames. My kitchen has some of these -- 3 casement windows (I'm not replacing these until and if I do a kitchen remodel).

In addition to energy efficiency, cosmetics and maintenance are considerations.

The exterior walls in my living room, where the fireplace insert is (as well as two steam radiators), are more window than wall. I'm assuming they are big heat sinks, even with the existing storm windows. The adjoining dining room is the same.


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## oldfrt

Amycat,
Seeing that you seem to be in the planning stage for making your home more comfortable and energy efficient,I would consider also getting estimates for an insulation update.
I'm pretty sure that it would be covered by the rebate and it may give you more bang for the buck.You could always cover the interior of your windows with plastic if they are real leakers.
Just leakage through the sill/plate section of an older home can cause it to feel signifigantly cooler in the winter,and heat loss through the attic is is just burning up extra fuel.The money you save on heating this winter could be set aside for windows later on.
I'm just saying that you should consider where the most heat loss is and fix that first.


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## oberon

Scuba_Dave said:


> I'm not sure where you get that information, provide a link if you have one
> 
> The Data I have seen:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't even come close to the .30 (or lower) of new energy saving windows
> And many people in really cold areas will add a storm on a double pane window. I would only consider single pane if REQUIRED by a Historic District ruling


I agree with you. 

If you reread my post (and maybe I worded it poorly), I said that restoration folks (Amycat's colleague for example) will tell you that adding a storm to a single pane window will give you energy performance numbers equal to or BETTER than those from a new dual pane with LowE and argon - etc. In fact, a few years back Fine Homebuilding did an article on window restoration and the gentleman who wrote the article said exactly that within the first couple paragraphs.

What I said in my post was that the restoration folks are wrong. They say it, but it simply isn't true.

Restoration with a good quality storm window will improve window performance over a leaky single pane window. As a percentage, it can double the energy performance numbers. If done correctly, restoration can do a lot with air infiltration as well. 

However, no matter how well a restoration is done, it is simply not physically possible to get the same energy performance that the highest performing new windows can provide. But again, restoration can very much be a cost effective alternative to replacement in the right circumstances.


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## oberon

Amycat said:


> Replacement windows would be inserts, not full frame.
> 
> Architecturally I am under no real constraints. Almost every house on this block (all 70-100 years old) has replacement windows. The houses across the street have vinyl. My neighbor on one side has older (1970s?) double-pane windows with metal frames. My kitchen has some of these -- 3 casement windows (I'm not replacing these until and if I do a kitchen remodel).
> 
> In addition to energy efficiency, cosmetics and maintenance are considerations.
> 
> The exterior walls in my living room, where the fireplace insert is (as well as two steam radiators), are more window than wall. I'm assuming they are big heat sinks, even with the existing storm windows. The adjoining dining room is the same.


 

Amycat,

This is a great thread. There is a lot of good information and some excellent discussions pertaining to replacement windows and overall home energy performance.

Going back to your original post, it might be worth your while to contact a couple of professional window installers to get a few more quotes and to discuss with them the advantages and disadvantages of different window brands. 

The more quotes that you receive, the more comfortable you will be when you make the final decision.


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## Amycat

Yes, this thread has been very informative. Thanks for you advice Oberon. Here are the quotes I've gathered. All are from licensed/insured installers, all include capping/wrapping unless otherwise indicated. All the windows qualify for the tax credit:

Champion $525 ("includes exterior trim," which I assume means capping)

Alside UltraMaxx R10 $400

AMI Alside Excalibur $375

Simonton 5500 $365

Harvey Classic $360 (no capping mentioned)

AMI Alside Excalibur $325

AMI Weatherguard $325

Alliance Stergis Belmont $300

Of the above, the Belmont, the Harvey Classic, the Simonton 5500, and the Alside Excalibur looked boxy -- I don't think they can be considered low profile. The Weatherguard is almost exactly the same as the Excalibur, it's made by AMI/Alside for a local company, but it has a lower profile. It looks similar to photos of the Simonton Impressions (which I have not seen a display version of). Also the local company does a 5 year guarantee on labor on top of the manufacturer's warranty. This company has a good reputation and has been installing windows here for 25 years.

So I'm leaning toward the AMI Weatherguard. I could get the living room and an upstairs bedroom done this year. By watching, I might learn enough about the installation process to install the windows in the dining room myself next year.


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## fenestrationman

If I may chime in. Concerning storms and the tax credit. Depending on the existing window makeup(frame material, glass, etc.), what tint of glass will be used in the storm window, and the climate zone in which the structure is located, some storm products qualify for the credit. If you get on NFRC and 
energy Stars website and search for 2004 IECC(supplement to 2003 IECC), you should be able to find the information.
There are two companies that I know of that has this information posted on their websites. They are 
Gorell and ProVia.
I am not sure that this information is useful for this dicussion, but maybe useful down the road.
Take care,


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## bsperr

I just replaced a few old single pane, double hung windows with the Pella Thermastar inserts from Lowes that qualify for the tax credit. I was very pleased with the quality, and the installation was not too difficult (about an hour per window including taking out the old window and insulating around the frame). I don't expect to recoup the costs w/ energy savings, but it definitely improves the appearance, cuts down on sound, and will hopefully help with resell.


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## Scicluna

*Simonton 5500 $365*

I also live in Southern New England. Who gave you the quote for Simonton 5500 @ $365?



Amycat said:


> Yes, this thread has been very informative. Thanks for you advice Oberon. Here are the quotes I've gathered. All are from licensed/insured installers, all include capping/wrapping unless otherwise indicated. All the windows qualify for the tax credit:
> 
> Champion $525 ("includes exterior trim," which I assume means capping)
> 
> Alside UltraMaxx R10 $400
> 
> AMI Alside Excalibur $375
> 
> Simonton 5500 $365
> 
> Harvey Classic $360 (no capping mentioned)
> 
> AMI Alside Excalibur $325
> 
> AMI Weatherguard $325
> 
> Alliance Stergis Belmont $300
> 
> Of the above, the Belmont, the Harvey Classic, the Simonton 5500, and the Alside Excalibur looked boxy -- I don't think they can be considered low profile. The Weatherguard is almost exactly the same as the Excalibur, it's made by AMI/Alside for a local company, but it has a lower profile. It looks similar to photos of the Simonton Impressions (which I have not seen a display version of). Also the local company does a 5 year guarantee on labor on top of the manufacturer's warranty. This company has a good reputation and has been installing windows here for 25 years.
> 
> So I'm leaning toward the AMI Weatherguard. I could get the living room and an upstairs bedroom done this year. By watching, I might learn enough about the installation process to install the windows in the dining room myself next year.


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## Amycat

United Better Homes, North Providence, RI. Why, do you think that's low or high?


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## Scicluna

Amycat said:


> United Better Homes, North Providence, RI. Why, do you think that's low or high?


Seems like a good price based on the quotes I have been getting in MA.


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## Amycat

I was told that the company also operates in MA.

This evening while removing an electric baseboard radiator from the wall in an upstairs bathroom, a bunch of cellulose insulation fell out of the hole in the drywall. I know this is no guarantee all the exterior walls are insulated, but I'm thinking that maybe cellulose was blown in when the house got siding. This would mean the windows are the major heat sinks.


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## lffisher

*Emily - what do you think of Lowes Reliabilt (now Atrium)*

How about the Lowes Reliabilt Series 3301 or 3500 Double Hung vinyl window. I belive Lowes Reliabilt is now an Atrium window - they switched it earlier this year. I'm not sure exactly which Atrium model number this corresponds to - will call Atrium on Monday.

Just wondering what you thought about their construction. Lowes also sells the Pella Therma Star and I'm not getting those. But Lowes is also offering a $99/window pocket replacement install and I'm leaning toward that, even given what people have said about their installers.

Thanks!





EMILY P said:


> I"d stay away from Pella THerma Star windows. They use double sided tape to hold in their glass. Not a good sealled system. Also, paper thin exterior glazing stops, weep holes in frames -idea for bug nests, jamb screw adjustment -there are much better windows than Pella why do people think they make a good product- it's average at best.
> For vinyl window companies:
> Siminton
> Allside
> Great Lakes
> Silver Line 9500/8500 Series
> 
> 
> Vinyl is vinyl (plastic)any way-most companies are here today and gone tomorrow- be sure to buy a national brand name-most vinyl companies claim to have the best window- when most are the same- oh yeah watch and read the fine print on warranties - good luck-
> I like Marvin and Andersen Insert Windows as replacements- wood for the most part will last longer and you can get parts for most -good luck-


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## paulv

I'd listen to *AtlanticWBConst's *post up above. (And I'm clear out here on the West Coast.)

See if you can get the company to break out the window cost from the install cost. If you buy windows that meet the "less than .30 U factor and .30 solar heat gain" numbers in the Federal stimulus bill, you'll qualify for 30% off the window cost - up to $1,500. The installation costs, or labor, don't qualify. 

I work with Milgard Windows out here, but I don't think you'll find them up where you are. 

Also, YES. The "mechanical" joined corners are screwed together and are nowhere near as good as "welded" at the corners. 

- paulv


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## Amycat

*An update*

Thought I'd post an update. I had 8 vinyl double-pane replacement windows installed almost 6 months ago, an AMI product with grids on the top sash and exterior wrapping, for $300+ each (I did some negotiation). The U-factor is .30 and SHGC is .19. They are really airtight and easy to operate. The ones in the living room, in combination with two French doors that I got hung to block airflow to the enclosed porch (which has the old windows all the way around), really made a difference. 

I will probably get another 8 or so of these windows installed this summer.

I'm still getting some grief from people who exclaim about the benefits of restoring existing sashes. As I mentioned (I think) when I started this thread, my house is 90 years old; the windows are old but I don't think they are original. They just don't work well -- sticky/jammed, drafty -- and are covered with a lot of (lead) paint.

I did a little poking around. Getting brand new custom wooden sashes are $450 per window. Refurbishing the existing sashes and hardware looks to be at least $300 per window. Neither figure includes installation or new storm windows. So my guess is going this route runs anywhere from $500 to $800 per window, and the energy efficiency probably isn't as great.

According to the people who exclaim about restoring old windows, wood sash windows last 100 years and vinyl replacement windows last 25. Guess what? I'm 45 years old. At 70, I'll be nearing retirement, the mortgage on this house will be paid off, and I'll sell it.


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## Windows

I would be very surprised if your double hung windows are not original. Because they are so serviceable, they can last for hundreds of years, and they are built the way they are so they can be repaired, not replaced. If they are coated in paint and barely working, you can be sure they are original. I am in the process of restoring my 90 year old wooden d.h. windows and it has been a great project . You really cannot touch the elegance of properly working, actual double hung windows. However restoration is only a cost effective alternative to replacement if you do the work yourself. With the number of hours I have put into each window, it would have been far cheaper to get new windows than pay an outside restorer, and they wouldn't have done as good a job as I've done. As for the lead issue, adherence to a few basic abatement techniques takes your risk of contamination way, way down. 

For the record, if I lived in a cold weather place, I probably would be replacing my windows, not restoring.


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## Mudball

Great information. Thanks for taking the time to update.


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## Amycat

I did some more poking around. A restoration company says that the windows are probably original. Removal, stripping, re-installation with new hardware and cords, plus the same kind of ugly aluminum storms that I have now: $1,000 per opening. 

So if I was immortal, I could put in new vinyl replacement windows every 25 years for the next 75 years at the cost of restoring the windows that are original to the house, which, by the way, is not architecturally significant.

A weekend stroll around various streets in the area revealed that only a couple of the highest-end homes have original windows without storms. A lot of homes have vinyl replacements.


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## Windows

That is why restoration work always commands a premium at resale - because it is expensive, difficult and relatively rare. Vinyl windows are practical, comfortable and extremely common, and while nice to have, they don't really add value to a home.


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## Amycat

In my local real estate market, there is no way I could recoup the investment in restored windows; however, energy efficient replacement windows are a selling point.


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## Scuba_Dave

Windows said:


> Vinyl windows are practical, comfortable and extremely common, and while nice to have, they don't really add value to a home.


I think that very much depends upon the area & the house
Given the choice between single pane & new vinyl I'll take the new vinyl


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## Windows

Scuba_Dave said:


> I think that very much depends upon the area & the house
> Given the choice between single pane & new vinyl I'll take the new vinyl


I throw some pictures of my single pane windows on the site when I get them finished and we'll see if you still feel the same way. :thumbsup:


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## Scuba_Dave

Single pane to me means maintenance & higher energy bills
I've replaced every window in my house now, 25 in the original house
Add to that the 31 in the new sunroom & addition...I'd be doing a lot of work long term
I like the cleaner look of just a top & bottom pane
And there is no way my wife wants to clean between divided lights like a 6 over 6
I like the look on some houses....but I'm very happy with what we have

Our front picture window is fractional grille at the top, Dining room picture window now matches
Its been 5 years for most windows & I have yet to have to do anything to them


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## Windows

I must admit that fractional grille has a nice appearance.


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## Amycat

My pro-preservation acquaintances say restoring the original windows is architecturally consistent and therefore looks better. The problem with that logic, in my case at least, is that most of the houses on this street, including mine, have vinyl siding. Add to that the exterior aluminum storm windows and it's definitely not the way the house looked originally.

Also, I grew up with single-pane, double-hung sashes and aluminum storm windows. I've never been impressed by their air-tightness. This house has them, and the plastic sheeting I've got taped over them in the dining room billows in and out.


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## Scuba_Dave

It depends upon what you want long term
We had vinyl siding & I knew from Day One I was getting rid of it
The existing windows were one over one so we knew we already liked that look
We are going back to wood siding on the sides & painted siding front & back
The peak in the fornt will have blue rounded shingles (stained I think)

Think of how you want the house to look long term
They do make the vinyl windows with divided lights
Some people are alos only doing the top with the grilles/divided lights
The thing I do not like on most vinylks windows is the flimsy grille inserts
They are made to be removed for easy cleaning...but look cheap IMO


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## ProudlyBuilt

*The Average homeowner can replace their own windows*



davethebuilder said:


> As you are not experienced in window installation suggest you paya professional to install for you.
> 
> The reason: Windows seal your house from the weather, they provide ventilation and light basically they are an integral part of a living space.
> 
> To have the windows leak water, draw wind and possibly not function correctly, will be more costly for you to repair later, let alone put up with the potential problems!
> 
> Do you get a foot doctor to check your faulty heart because its cheaper!!


I've been installing replacement windows for years, as well as every aspect of framing and fine finishwork. Although there can be complications, most window installations are extremely overpriced due to lead regulations and contractor overhead. With the right instruction, anyone can measure, order, and install their own windows.

Luke


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## homeremodelguy

I've been using Eco View Windows for the past 10 years. There are only a hand full of companies that have the good housekeeping seal and that are affordable. Half the price of Andersen.
__________________
Home Improvement Specialist
HomeImprovementCompare.com


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