# Re: old buildings



## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: old buildings*



mt999999 said:


> First, I read through and looked at all 8 pages of pictures (multiple times), and I can say that the picture with the trash can collecting rainwater is in the Lowe building next door (fire escape outside window). The Lowe building needs most work, and certainly a new roof over it; it is included in the sale and attached on the upper levels. The main building is pretty solid from what I've seen. I know the plaster damage is bad, but this is an amazing old building with beautiful archetecture, and I can't bear the thought that it might be left to fully rot away.


That's another issue, the attachment to neighboring buildings when one has a leaking roof and is in major deterioration. The plaster damage, celing caving in etc is indicative of a lot of water getting in the walls from the roof, and it's mostly trapped in there.



mt999999 said:


> Maybe I'm trying to jump into this too fast, and maybe I'll get in over my head, but I think it is still saveable..


As long as the foundation and brick walls are solid, in plumb and in good condition it's certainly saveable. The big killer besides cost, is if the leaking rain from the roof soaks into the top and upper brick walls and starts freezing, then you have major trouble!



mt999999 said:


> I'm sure the electrical, plumbing, and all will need work. One of the first things that I would do would be to tar and patch the roof.


I have a feeling all of those will need more than work, closer to replacement with in-code materials and practices. I don't know how stringent your buildings dept is there, but here the city said no permits were needed for renovation/remodelling as long as it's not a structural change, or a change in use i.e. taking the commercially zoned building and making it a residence.
Here, you can get a building permit for $5, I added a new studio room on my house in 2006 and all they required was a rough sketch of the property the room plan, and $5
You certainly could do most of the grunt work yourself, and even if they are stringent, you can do the work and have a licensed pro go over it and check it for a fee, just keep to the code or better, and get every book you can on the particular systems so you can learn the correct practices, techniques,tools to use, materials to use etc and you can't wrong.



mt999999 said:


> If the rafters are too bad, they could be sprayed for mold/mildew and piggy-backed to new rafters for extra support. The sheathing is probably rotted too.


I have a nasty feeling that won't be allowed, besides, the original rafters and floor joists are typically inserted into a pocket in the brick walls at each end, likely the wood in those pockets is rotted and piggy-backing a new board alongside the old will still rely 100% on the integrity of the old wood in the pockets. You can bet the roof deck is rotted where the leaks are.
This is why roofs are so important to keep maintained, the smallest leak can cause big trouble.
The floor in my kitchen- the kitchen was originally a back porch resting on foot square 8 foot long logs that looked like they were once massive supports salvaged from a commercial building, they were laid directly on some flat rocks on the ground and their centers and bottom were basically all rot.
The floor had a 6" tilt to it across the width, the other end of the joists rested on a 2x4 simply nailed to the concrete block foundation wall.
I wound up digging the whole area out, putting in footings, drainage, block walls up, and replacing all the joists with new because the old ones were salvaged junk, some were nothing more than 2x6 and some were 3x12 and every other odd size you can think of, and they had splits and rot.



mt999999 said:


> One thing, I must qoute www.oldhouseguy.com in saying, never, ever, ever, replace historical wooden windows. If this building is ever mine, those will be restored with new glazing, wood putty/epoxy, and paint. New windows would kill the look of the building.


I disagree with that guy, IF the building is a historic designated landmark, or it had unusual curved glass windows, stained glass, bevelled glass, was built by George Washington etc then the originals should be saved, but for the most part those old wood windows were simply purchased off the shelf from a supplier, the old version of Menards in a way. Those drafty loose windows were put in back in the day when coal was $5 a ton or less and they didn't care how much heat went out.

With as many windows as there are there, and the cost for heat these days, and the fact the brick has an almost zero R value, every bit you can do will be a massive help on heating and cooling costs. There are modern replacement windows that look appropriate and have dual pane argon low E glass, and not cost too much.
I replaced all the windows on my 1930 house and it made a huge difference I could measure. My kitchen is where my desk is, it has 3 large windows- about 5' square for the largest (2 double hung set side by side) with the original windows here, in the winter I would actually get ICE on the glass inside, and the glass itself was so cold it set up a convection current that felt like a draft.
I HAD to have a 1500 watt space heater in the room on me all the time because it was so cold.Once I replaced those 3 windows, the first winter I found I didn't need that space heater AT ALL, I found my electric bill dropped by about $35 a month. That winter I saved enough on the electric to cover the cost for one of the windows! I no longer feel a cold draft, ice does not form on the inside of the glass any more.
They don't have stock windows that fit my openings for height, they were close though and I was able to fit them in well.

This is a vinyl window on my new studio room addition, I trimmed around them (replaced all the old ones) with the same style as the original windows, as you can see, it all looks appropriate to the style of the 1930 house, I even sided the room with new clapboard I made sized the same as the originals. As a bonus the window comes in white, and white trim is what I always used on the house, so it was perfect.
The side boards, header and sill are all treated lumber, most of the originals on the house had bad rot. These windows were about $135 each, double glass, argon, low E and with a screen included, I love them!











That is the reality, you can be historic to a "tee" but things like windows will cost you a lot of money for heat/ ac, and lack of comfort.
The rest of my house has R100 attic insulation and R25 in the walls and it's comfortable.
I had added more insulation to the walls by adding a second wall inside as the plaster and lath were in poor condition, on the interior of all exterior walls I screwed 2x2 strips to the wall studs with long screws, filled that 2" space with celotex, a vapor sheet over that,1/2" plywood and 1/2" sheetrock. I used ply in there so I can hang heavy things on the wall and not have to bother finding studs for anchors.




mt999999 said:


> I'd try to save the Plaster and Lathe, but I'm sure the exterior walls would need gutted for plumbing/electrical, and I am willing to be there is little to no insulation in any exterior walls, or even the roof.


If you need to gut the exterior wall plaster/lath to the brick, I would certainly use that opportunity to put insulation in there! It would save a lot of money in heat/ac.
There is at least one contractor I know of who does plaster/lath walls, but this is largely a lost art and it's very expensive and a lot of hand labor involved. You would certainly have to replace with standard sheetrock, but even with this, there's opportunities to give it a texture with sheetrock mud, trowels, stiff brush etc so it's no so flat and smooth.
I used a wallpaper paste brush and sheetrock mud to texture with- moving the brush in rows of semi-circular fan patterns like the old ceiling had in many places.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

What kind of price is the owner looking for for the building?

I bought mine, 20x96 brick with full basement for $15k, and like this one you detailed- mine is right off the city square in a prime high traffic location.

If you look at the National Trust for Historic Preservation site, you might find some ideas and also see what others have done with similar near abandoned falling apart buildings. Their magazine is real good and comes as a membership premium.
The membership cost is $15/year and that includes their magazine.

http://www.preservationnation.org

You might browse this section for adaptive reuse;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/adaptive-reuse/


Now you'll really be surprised, check out this hotel, it's almost a dead ringer for the corner building you detailed;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/...resurrection-of-las-boyle-hotel/#.UQW34uiR2S4










*How Architect Robert Verrier Saved More than 150 Places with Historic Tax Credits*

FAIA, NCARB For more than 30 years, historic preservation tax incentives have been helping architects, builders, and private citizens transform historic buildings for new uses, preserving architectural heritage, and benefiting communities all over the country.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Whew boy, I have alot to reply to... Where to start... 

Well, I don't know what I'd do with the Lowe Building. Could become apartments later on. If you saw the exterior picture, you'd see that it has had the fourth floor added on years later with different colored brick for whatever reason. I'm sure that one has massive leakage, based on the third floor having a squishy floor with trash barels collecting rain water. Knocking off the upper floor is beyond my ability, so I would have to temporarily seal off the roof with plasic tarps (Tricky for a flat roof) and make sure there was proper drainage to prevent further damage until the roof could be fully replaced. The main store front area of the building would be a good money maker if it were rented out, because only one corner has minor water damage by the storefront window. Other than that, that area is spotless and modern. Not to mention a great location right on the Diamond. I would seal off the upstairs, and save it for another day, or year. 
The brick appers solid. As previously stated, the historical society didn't do the greatest job on photographing the thing. Most of the time, they didn't know which floor/building they were in. I knew more from "context clues" of the pictures. Did I menion I am obsessed with the building? I have pin-pointed where almost every picture is on the exterior based on minor flaws with the windows. 

Also, as previously mentioned, this is East Liverpool. Doesn't mean much to out of town people, but around here everyone knows the laws are usually loose. Everything is crumbling. I mentioned the old Sherwin Williams building in the old post in electrical. I have seen pictures of our old Woolworth store, and I have looked in storefront windows. Beautiful tin ceiling rotted to nothing nearly, pigeon waste everywhere. The upstairs is scary rotted, not to mention the pigeons inhabiting it. Holes in the ceiling, mushy floor boards. Called the Exchange building, that one is certainly done for. It won't last much longer. Or, I could be wrong earlier, and the building laws are tighter, so buildings are abandoned. But I doubt that. They let everything go to pot, scum-lords everywhere. I know how to flux and solder copper piping, and I also know PVC, and I have some knowledge on electrical. Regardless, in this potentially 11,000 square foot building, the idea still kind of scares me.
Even if rules dont allow the rafters to be piggy-backed, who will know if it is coverd by drywall? I usually believe by the code, but if it is solid and safe, I won't loose any sleep over it. There isn't any real attic to speak of regardless. Now, if the rafters are set into the brick... well... lets just hope they are in decent-enough shape. Maybe another pocket could be made alongside? Again, it might be a beaking or selling point for anything that I am not sure of. When I tour the place, most of my questions will be answered. I'm sure I could patch and tar a flat roof, but what would your idea be for a qoute on redoing the entire thing? There are a few roof shots from neighboring buildings on the first page of pictures. Minus a few bubbles, the roof doesn't look too bad from what I can see. Hopefully most of the third floor front turret room (where the ceiling is all but entirely missing) is damage from runoff from the Lowe building. The old plaster could be removed, and the lathe could have dry wall nailed over it, keeping it at correct historical thickness. That would make patching the main roof easier. The tiny attic/fourth floor above that front room must be pretty bad regardless. Couldn't find any pictures inside, might be accessable from the fourth floor tower? Pictures show old tar running onto the yellow painted trim, but I am just going to assume it hasn't been painted in a LONG time. The 1970's/80's photo shows it might be the same paint from back then. However, some of the yellow pointed trim pieces at the roof level appear to be a newer-painted lighter yellow color.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/Thompson%20Building.htm
I would like to have it put on the list of historical landmarks one day. Each window has a stained glass panel above it, and I like the look of the main aged glass panels. Storm windows are an option, but it would cover the stained glass, and those wouldn't look as nice. I have heard of interior storm windows, but I don't know about those. Plastic sheating can be put up on the inside for winter, but it doesn't look too pretty from the inside point of view. The third floor windows looked fogged when I walked past it the other day. I'm glad, because it must be atleast somewhat heated. I saw a pictue of a huge possible gas-converted boiler in the cellar. I would think about new wooden windows, but those are expensive and don't last as long as the old ones. Not to mention how expensive special-made windows would be for these large old openings. I like the look of the old ones too. Vinyl windows kill me, they look cheap to me. But, to each his own. I would be on a tight budget anyway, and that many new windows might not be feasable. I think replacing the windows would void the tax credit for restoring old buildings as well. Some of our old windows ice up on cold days inside too. Not pleasant. Thick curtains would help. I think weatherstriping them would seriously help the draft, though. These windows seem decent, but if they were totally trashed, I could definately see replacing them.
How many square feet is your house, and what did the insulation for your walls cost? How about the ceiling? I'd like to get a general idea on what it sells for. I have read up on the National Park Service about platering over lath, and it certainly looks like something for a skilled tradesman. However, I think I could handle patching the plaster on an interior wall to original thickness, as long as the hole isn't too bad. I am sure you could put a plastic vapor barrier over the bare brick once it is gutted, for waterproofing any moisture coming from the brick. Or, the vapor barrier could be put over the insulation like you said. I like the plywood idea, it would bring drywall to proper historical plaster thickness, thus leaving no gaps around adjacent walls. Or, you could re-use the lath in place of the plywood, then drywall. Our house has a brick wall, then 1/2-1 inch furring strips (lathe thickness) attached to it, with early gypsum plaster board attached to the furring. Ours was built in the late 1920's. I certainly hope this building isn't like that, because it would leave virtually no room for insulation.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> What kind of price is the owner looking for for the building?
> 
> I bought mine, 20x96 brick with full basement for $15k, and like this one you detailed- mine is right off the city square in a prime high traffic location.
> 
> ...


He is currently asking $23,000, but I would offer lower. Needs SO much work. It WAS up at $60,000 a few years back. It's been on the market a long time. It also has a full basement, connected with the basement of the building next door also. Yours was the studio from 1910 that I commented on, correct? This one (I want to say mine) is 1892.

http://www.russellrealty.com/p/259/3365601?posc=4&post=20&&cfq=radarea%3D4%26startnewsearch%3D1%26zipcode%255B%255D%3D43920%26pricemax%3D25000%26bedmore%3D1%26bath_thre%3D1%26vtycount%3D2%26restype%3D1%26limit%3D10%26SRSearchDate%3D1359342026%26SRRecordCount%3D20%26SRPage%3D1%26SRPageCount%3D2%26SRPageLinks%3D6

The National Trust website said $20 for a membership, they must have upped it. I will think about it. The picture of that hotel does look similar. I will check out those other two links in a bit here. I initially thought it would make a nice bed and breakfast, and I would have fun running it. However, there is no market for it around here. The Sturgis house in town would take any competition. East Liverpool used to be the pottery capital of the world, but then it all moved to China. No tourist attractions around here except for the world's largest tea kettle in Chester, WV right next door. It's like what happened to Steubenville after the steel mills closed. Such a shame. 

www.sturgishouse.com


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

I did see the pics, the 4th floor was obviously added on, there could be 2 reasons why- there could have been fire damage on the original 4th floor that damaged the brick enough it was all replaced, or they just added another floor on for more space.
I would say adding on is more likely.
At first I thought East Liverpool was referring to the UK, but found it was not the UK.
The Lowe building might be past doing much with, and I think you have a greater fondness for the corner building. That added on 4th floor just ruins the Lowe, I wouldn't say that one was really worth the cost to restore, any money spend is betetr put on the better corner building, and if there was a way to just buy that one independent of Lowe that would be good.

" Knocking off the upper floor is beyond my ability, so I would have to temporarily seal off the roof with plasic tarps (Tricky for a flat roof) and make sure there was proper drainage to prevent further damage until the roof could be fully replaced. "

You'd be surprised, it wouldn't take more than a crowbar, and in NYC that's how they demolished entire buildings like these in the 1970's and 1980's - a crew of 5-6 guys with 4' crowbars take down a floor a day, the bricks were cleaned and sold, the rest has to be hauled away and you would then have to build a new roof deck.
You and a friend could do it, but it would be a real chore and you'd need to get the new deck money and the new deck in quickly to avoid being hit too many times by rain storms with no roof.

" Vinyl windows kill me, they look cheap to me. But, to each his own. I would be on a tight budget anyway, and that many new windows might not be feasable. "

It depends on the brand/style, but the budget is the biggest factor and one that will dictate how much you can replace and with how high a quality.

" I think replacing the windows would void the tax credit for restoring old buildings as well. "

I'm not sure on that, though there is tax credits for replacing old windows with energy efficient ones, my local utility I think offers $50 or $100 per window (or did a while back) but they require a licensed contractor do the work as well as replace the ENTIRE window not just the sash, and so the cost to hire a contractor to do something you can easily do yourself completely kills that rebate or tax credit.
A big issue with saving old wood windows is rot, 2 of them in my kitchen were so bad the previous owner had nailed them shut, the glass was falling out even and the best I could do initially was caulk it real good while trying to find a suitable replacement that fit. As it turned out the closest I could find was2 pella double hung aluminum clad wood windows, they were the right height but 2" too wide together.
I wound up making them fit because the same windows 1" narrower were "custom sized" and going to cost over $450 instead of $159 each.

"How many square feet is your house, and what did the insulation for your walls cost? How about the ceiling? I'd like to get a general idea on what it sells for."

It's about 1,000 sq ft, the original exterior walls have blown-in cellulose insulation put in around 1970s, what I added was 2" of Celotex board, I don't rememebr what it cost and google now seems to pull up nothing but UK results for some reason. You can find it at any home improvement place, Menards, Lowes etc take some time and go browse prices on various items to get an idea of cost. Celotex has the highest R value, but styrofoam is a close second and you can use that instead. I buy 1" styrofoam sheets for packing, and it's around $6.99 a sheet or so at Menards, 2" might be around $12 or close to it.

"However, I think I could handle patching the plaster on an interior wall to original thickness, as long as the hole isn't too bad."

Plastering walls is tricky, it's more of an art than skill

I am sure you could put a plastic vapor barrier over the bare brick once it is gutted, for waterproofing any moisture coming from the brick. Or, the vapor barrier could be put over the insulation like you said."

You also need to be carefull not to trap moisture in the walls, you would probably not want the plastic against the brick, normally the plastic goes right under the sheetrock over the insulation and the interior of the wall is vented up into the attic by the nature of it's construction. As long as the mortar is tight the brick should not transmit moisture into the wall interior, the main moisture comes from the heated rooms, kitchen, bath etc.

"I like the plywood idea, it would bring drywall to proper historical plaster thickness, thus leaving no gaps around adjacent walls. Or, you could re-use the lath in place of the plywood, then drywall. Our house has a brick wall, then 1/2-1 inch furring strips (lathe thickness) attached to it, with early gypsum plaster board attached to the furring. "

I'm wondering if those furring strips are even sold any more, it might be a case of having to make your own.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> He is currently asking $23,000, but I would offer lower. Yours was the studio from 1910 that I commented on, correct?


The land is probably worth about that, but realistically, regardless of the amount of work needed, the amount he might reduce that isn't going to really amount to much in the long run anyway. It's a decent price in my opinion.
The taxes at $1475 will certainly increase since that's the taxes now based on a half abandoned wreck with leaking roof, when you start adding new value to this you can expect that amount to increase proportionally, I would inquire what the rates are per thousand and what it's assessed value is and what it might go up to if it's remodelled.
The commercial building I bought is from about 1910 and will be my gallery yes. That was $15k, the woman was asking $17,900 I made the offer of 15k and it was accepted.
My house on 1/2 acre of land was $7,900





mt999999 said:


> The National Trust website said $20 for a membership, they must have upped it.


Oops my bad, I saw this and quickly posted it as $15:
_*Note:* The portion of your membership dues that exceeds $15.00 is fully tax deductible. $6.00 is for your subscription to Preservation magazine.

_It is $20_
_





mt999999 said:


> I will think about it. The picture of that hotel does look similar. I will check out those other two links in a bit here. I initially thought it would make a nice bed and breakfast, and I would have fun running it. However, there is no market for it around here.
> 
> It's like what happened to Steubenville after the steel mills closed. Such a shame.


See, that's the big problem everywhere now, great buildings but little around for support, that's one reason it's been on the market so long and is that cheap. Starting a new business there or looking to rent stores out is a challenge if there's empty store fronts around and little traffic to support something like a bed and breakfast etc.
I like that idea though, but it doesnt sound like a B&B would be viable.

My boss lives in a big 3 story brick 2900 sq ft Victorian house he fully restored, built in 1901 it's on the historic register and even has a bronze plaque on it, but it costs him $800/mo for utilities with heating being a big part of that because brick has so lilttle R value.
He is trying to sell it for $235,000 and not having any offers. This house is imaculate and gorgeous, no expense spared, but in a little town of 1,800 people, with essentially no jobs available or real industry, who could afford a house like this except maybe a doctor, hospital administrator, lawyer etc? and with a lot of houses for sale in the below $50,000 to $75,000 range it's a hard one to find a buyer for.
More so with a 3 story house, few people want to hike 3 flights of stairs these days! The attic is finished into a gorgeous room, but insulation space was lost by doing this.
The mortgage calculator says $762/mo but add on the $800 he pays for utilities, and already you are up to more than $1500 a month.
The land is assessed at $15k, the house at $163k.
He bought it in 1988 for $14k


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> I did see the pics, the 4th floor was obviously added on, there could be 2 reasons why- there could have been fire damage on the original 4th floor that damaged the brick enough it was all replaced, or they just added another floor on for more space.
> I would say adding on is more likely.
> At first I thought East Liverpool was referring to the UK, but found it was not the UK.
> The Lowe building might be past doing much with, and I think you have a greater fondness for the corner building. That added on 4th floor just ruins the Lowe, I wouldn't say that one was really worth the cost to restore, any money spend is betetr put on the better corner building, and if there was a way to just buy that one independent of Lowe that would be good.
> ...


There have been many fires in this building's history, worst of which was the Diamond fire of 1968. Somehow skipped this building and the Lowe building. Destroyed a huge building two down on the right where it started. Destroyed the upper two floors of the pants shop next to the Lowe building, skipped over the corner building, and ravished the top two floors of the building on the other side of the corner building. Very strange concidence, or just thick brick firewalls on the corner building. The old picture at the top of the historical society's page was from the turn of the century. You can see fancy brickwork at the top of the Lowe Building, and it is only three floors. Must have been an add-on. Honestly, the red bricks on the Lowe building aren't in too good of shape. If I owned it, and decided to keep it all, I might just patch partially-missing bricks and paint the whole Lowe building with red brick paint, all four floors with a roller, trying to avoid the mortar inbetween the brick. Might have interesting results?

East liverpool is certainly in Ohio. It was originally Liverpool, named for Liverpool, England. Alot of skilled potters moved here from England, for the clay-filled soils. The name was changed to East Liverpool, because there was once a Liverpool in western Ohio. Saved confusion, I guess. Whole industry started going down the tubes in the mid 60's or so. The widening of Route 30 that knocked out the first three streets in the late 70's certainly didn't help either. All that is left is Homer Laughlin and Hall China Potteries.

I also like the look of wooden windows on the inside of the house, as well. If it were a portion that was to be rented as apartments, I wouldn't really have as much of an issue with it. All windows should match from the outside though. Plus, alot of vinyl cracks and fades in 20-30 years, then they need to be bought all over again. These old wood windows last forever, it seems. What would be a bugger would be to get matching sashes for those few third floor windows that are boarded up. Sashes might still be upstairs, they could have just been too lazy to put a new glass pane in. One tax credit website I was reading stated that you couldn't replace the windows or the credit would be void. However, I understand that the energy company might offer a credit for new windows. The old house guy might have something going when he says that it takes years upon years to recoupe the savings from new, expensive windows as opposed to weatherstripped old wood windows. With storm windows added, of course.

Did you use batts insulation for your ceiling? I wonder what that stuff runs for. Good point about traping moisture, I didn't think of that. The furring strips are literally the same width and thickness of strips of lathe, except laid sideways. I assumed that they used lathe leftover from the walls in our current house, but I found out that the interior walls were all made using early gypsum boards plastered on, as opposed to lathe and plaster. They still sell lathe strips, don't they? I certainly hope there are fullsized 2 by 6's in the walls (or whatever size they use), as opposed to furring strips, again for the difficulties in insulating in a very small area.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> The land is probably worth about that, but realistically, regardless of the amount of work needed, the amount he might reduce that isn't going to really amount to much in the long run anyway. It's a decent price in my opinion.
> The taxes at $1475 will certainly increase since that's the taxes now based on a half abandoned wreck with leaking roof, when you start adding new value to this you can expect that amount to increase proportionally, I would inquire what the rates are per thousand and what it's assessed value is and what it might go up to if it's remodelled.
> The commercial building I bought is from about 1910 and will be my gallery yes. That was $15k, the woman was asking $17,900 I made the offer of 15k and it was accepted.
> My house on 1/2 acre of land was $7,900
> ...




That house he owns is beautiful. I love the old victorians. There are several 4 bedroom ones crammed onto city lots for sale around here, but none are selling, probably for the same reasons you stated. My main issue is plain and simple, money. I'm younger than you would think just from talking to me. I dream big, that's for certain.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

"There have been many fires in this building's history, worst of which was the Diamond fire of 1968. "

My building had a fire in the basement near the furnace logn ago, they had to replace joists, the foor in the rear and ceiling panels, which is why the tin design in the rear 1/4 differs from the rest, I would guess it happened before 1930s and tin ceilings were still standard and easy to get, but the specific design was no longer available or they didn't bother to match it.

"if I owned it, and decided to keep it all, I might just patch partially-missing bricks and paint the whole Lowe building with red brick paint, all four floors with a roller, trying to avoid the mortar inbetween the brick. Might have interesting results?"

You can use used brick to replace, I would never suggest painting the brick, it's a huge mistake and one you'll regret if you keep the building long enough, or one the next owner will use your name in vane with a few choice 4 letter words.
As you may imagine, repairing brick walls is an art too, it's not easy tuck pointing or replacing damaged brick and making it look good. An amazing fellow here completely restored a 1 story brick facade (was originally a 4 story building) that has unique stone face textured, dark brick, but the bricks were literally falling out of the wall. He spent all summer, fall and winter on this carefully repairing, replacing and restoring, when he was done it was gorgeous! You can't tell where he made repairs or used newer bricks because he hand chiseled them to look like the originals, just amazing work.


"I also like the look of wooden windows on the inside of the house, as well."

Because my walls are thicker and redone, I had to retrim the windows inside, I used oak.

" All windows should match from the outside though. Plus, alot of vinyl cracks and fades in 20-30 years, then they need to be bought all over again. These old wood windows last forever, it seems. "

Well, as long as you keep them caulked and painted, and for this that means scaffolding to reach- the wood windows are ok, but if they aren't kept in constant repair water sheets down the glass and soaks right into the wood sash holding the glass in, that old window glazers putty only lasts a couple of years before it cracks, shrinks and deteriorates, and that is why a lot of old windows rot, the putty goes bad and the water sheets right off the glass into the wood and soaks in. The vinyl may crack in 20 or 30 years but you don't have all that maintenance.

"The old house guy might have something going when he says that it takes years upon years to recoupe the savings from new, expensive windows as opposed to weatherstripped old wood windows. With storm windows added, of course."

My house had all storm windows over windows that had their upper and lower sashes replaced in the 70s, they were ugly. The windows never would stay put- they used that vinyl friction track on the sides. I realized an immediate savings I positively saw on my electric bill, about $35/mo. The old house guy is a purist for one thing, and another issue is he is likely talking about those very expensive top of the line windows AND having a contractor install them which is going to cost hundreds of dollars per window on top.
Then yeah, it's expensive and if you only plan as most do these days- to live in your present house for 5 more years it doesn't make sense to spend the money.
OTH I've lived in my house 15 years, I'm not moving anywhere. I put the 13 windows in myself at a cost of under $2000 total, I know positively the savings on my electric bill is $35/mo and the amount saved on the gas is unknown, my monthly budget payments decreased. Even using just the $35 figure alone and only for winter heating season, that covers the cost for one window each winter, minimum. It would take a maximum of 13 years to pay for all the windows in electric savings. I'd say it's closer to 7 years since it's easier to cool now as well, ONE 5200 btu window a/c comfortably cools my house even during the hot humid Iowa summers.

"Did you use batts insulation for your ceiling? I wonder what that stuff runs for."

No, the attic had blown in cellulose put in around the mid 70's best as I figured, I went to the local lumber yard and bought a number of bags of it and used their blowing machine to blow that all in. It is about 35" deep in the attic, roughly R100 I calculated.
Insulation is not bad price wise, and it's a one time expense, check at Menards and see.

" They still sell lathe strips, don't they? I certainly hope there are fullsized 2 by 6's in the walls (or whatever size they use), as opposed to furring strips, again for the difficulties in insulating in a very small area."

I don't think they do, plaster and lath walls went out of style around the 1950s or 1960s when sheetrock became so easy to get and install, lath is a relic of the days when you hired a plasterer to do your ceilings and wall, and they used oil based paint because that's all that was available. I had a devil of a time finding flat white oil paint, no one carries it any more, but Rustoleum still makes it and I got some at Menards, like plaster gone to sheetrock, oil paint has all gone to latex.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

That building your friend re-did sounds amazing, but I don't think I have the skill or time to do such a thing. As you said earlier, the corner building is one I am going after. I am not really worried about the Lowe building. I would never, ever; not in a million years paint the corner (J.C. Thompson) building. However, it sounded like a quick-and-cheap alternative to repairing a building I am not nearly as interested in. There is no other method I know to make the bricks match. Also, I doubt any future owners (from this area) would care much about that building. It's more of an after thought. As you can see from the four pictures I attached (Think I did it right), the brick isn't too pretty on the Lowe building. I'm sure you've seen worse though. Someone didn't do a very good repointing job on the bulding either. You can also see a newly broken window (fourth floor, bottom right) on the Lowe building. I went past it, and took these pictures, as well as several Thompson (corner) building pictures. If I owned the buildings, I would worry about the Lowe building bricks later on. I'll share some of the Thompson building pictures in a bit... they really show how bad the woodwork, especially around windows, is decaying. 

Yes, I agree, if they are maintained. I am a hard worker, and I would enjoy maintaining them. Call me an oddball if you would, but I would go around and carefully restore every window. I have done glazing before, and if you paint if after it dries, the glazing shrinks less and lasts longer. They sell a silicone-type alternative to traditional DAP 33 Glazing as well. I would keep the windows, at least at first. Replacing might come as an after-thought years later. If the surface is prepped properly, the paint should last a good decade or so. I also agree, that storm windows are usually ugly. However, the good quality new ones (Sometimes 150 dollars or so) are more weather-tight and less ugly than old ones. 

That's great on the air-conditioner. I don't think this building has any A/C in it, but I am still not sure what that large box-fan type thing is on the one roof photoshot from the Historical Society. I aquired a 6000 BTU window A/C unit from a friend recently. Interesting story on it, he got it in the late 70's when he was a cab driver. Man had to go to his storage unit and didn't have enough money for a cab ride, so he gave him an A/C unit from the storage unit as fare. The unit has been in his attic since. He never tried it, but I cleaned it out and put a new filter in it; it fired right up with nearly ice-cold air. I'm sure it would never cover much of this building, though.

I don't know if this lathe in the link below is made to original proportions, but it is all that I could find in my area. However, I did not check the old local hardware store in my town. Don't forget the period when gypsum plaster board was installed as the base coat, with brown and finish coats to original specifications. Our house has a very early example of it, and the house that my grandfather built in the 1940's also has it. I guess drywall (or sheetrock) started becameing popularized in the 60's-70's era. What were you getting oil-based paint for? I searched our local Walmart (although I hate that store, but that is for a different forum) up and down for oil-based paint, but all they had was the expensive rustoleum. Not practial for anything more than trim. Oil-based paint is good for exterior windows and trim for more durability, but you need to paint over it with more oil-based when it wears. Latex tends to peel when applied to old oil-based, unless it is de-glossed or sanded. 

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=3978-199-5860&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3458944&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1#BVRRWidgetID


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I also forgot to mention that, with camera in hand, I stopped by the law firm next to the old Sherwin Williams paint building; the firm now owns both buildings. They slated the Williams building for demolition. I asked for a tour to take pictures, but the lady seemed adamant on her answer that the Historical Society has already taken plenty of pictures. Oh well, it was worth a shot.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah they did a lousy pointing job, the mortar is too white and sloppy, but then again they probably got the job they paid for.
Those fire escapes are another potential problem with the Lowe building, these have a tendency to corrode where the supports go into the brick facade, and they need to be constantly painted to keep corrosion at bay, replacing, removing or repairing these fire escapes is not cheap, and I wouldn't consider it a DIY job either!

Just FYI, I don't know what your budget is, but first let me tell you that since this is going thru a real estate agent, I doubt the owner will come down much from $22,500 or whatever it was, because he will have to pay a percentage out of that to the agent, I'm gussing it might be 10%, and then there's closing costs and pro-rated real estate taxes due on his part too.
I would say at best that's the price you would get it for, you could offer $21,000 and see what he says, but any less than that and I don't really see him coming down much more, certainly not enough to write home about.

On my building I had $5,000 cash so that's what I put down on it, what my bank did was a 5 year loan with a balloon payment, I wasn't thrilled by that but it was what they had. The scheduled payments are around $89/mo (I cover insurance and taxes separately) I asked about and confirmed there was no prepayment penalty, so I decided to pay $200/mo
for the 5 year terms and have it completely paid off before the $7,000 or so balloon payment would even come into play as it would if I only paid the $89/mo.
Because its commercial property thigns work differently, you may find the same kind of terms and your monthly payment might be around $125 on say $15,000 with a balloon payment later.

So you might think on this, if you have say $3,000 to $5,000 to put down, and can handle the $125/mo payment, it's within reach to get started.
Only you know if you can financially handle the costs for materials, the $1400 taxes, and have the time and all to first patch the roof and then clear out the debris, clean up everything, cover any broken out windows and start inspecting everything to see what has to be replaced.

Before signing anything I'd do a complete top to bottom check of everything- including going up on that closed up 4th floor, all the way down to the basement. The furnace may be toast or beyond reasonable life and need replacement, ditto for the hot water heater, you may have to redo all of the electrical wiring down to the circuit breakers.

You'll have your work cut out for you, but if this is your dream, then sit down and figure out your budget- how much you can afford, costs, time, abilities, and write it all down on paper. Then you have to decide to eother move forward on it, or just totally forget it and move on.

The fact there's more than one building involved is going to make this ten times harder and ten times more expensive than you think, if it was me, I would try to get JUST the corner building alone and forget about the Lowe and the other, the corner building by itself is going to run you a considerable amount in materials alone, this isn't a one story building like mine, estimate the repairs for one floor and multiply by at least 4 and see what number you come up with.
That Preservation article on the hotel that is similar to that corner building indicated they spent $30 million restoring it, mind you they did a huge number on it, but keep in mind how easy it will be to figure on $50,000 costs and then turn around months later and find that barely does 1/4 of the work needed when you start tearing into walls and discovering other issues, or that costs are more than expected and budgeted for.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but I know how these things go, and I can tell you that you'll think you have a good handle on what you estimate the cost will be, and you'll find it was way off once you get entrenched in.
Costs for all building materials has increased a lot in the last few years, it will go higher now due to demands for rebuilding thousands of homes after hurricane Sandy.

Offer the guy like, $15k for the corner building and see what he says.


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## ienien1 (Jan 29, 2013)

old buildings will look new if repainted and make some enhancement outside and inside the structure.


_______________________
stainless steel cable railing


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I am way too tired to comprehend all of this information, I can barely keep my eyes open. I am going to call it a night, and respond to this tomorrow when I am wide awake.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

ienien1 said:


> old buildings will look new if repainted and make some enhancement outside and inside the structure.


The problem with painting brick is the paint doesnt last, you now take a permanent material like brick and cover it with cheap temporary paint that cracks, peels and looks like garbage within 3-5 years. Removing paint off a brick facade is very time consuming and expensive, it either has to be sandblasted (damages the brick) water blasted, or chemically removed.
All the preservation groups etc will tell you NEVER paint brick walls, clean them if the brick is dirty but never start the lark of painting them.

Painting 4 floors of bricks just to cover the fact the top floor used a different color brick is just way out there. That top floor is toast anyway due to the roof leaks, it should probably be removed and put back as the 3 story building it was designed to be.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Before I nodd off here, I'd like your opinion. Look at the page below, it was of the 1968 diamond fire. You can see the now-enclosed staircase in one of the last pictures from the back portion of the building. Doesn't it look like the Thompson and Lowe buildings were painted white at the time? Just strikes me as odd, compared to the color of the bricks around them. I'll check for your responce tomorrow.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/diafire68.htm


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Doesn't it look like the Thompson and Lowe buildings were painted white at the time? Just strikes me as odd, compared to the color of the bricks around them. I'll check for your responce tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/diafire68.htm



It does appear to be painted white, though I've seen anomalies in old photos with fading and color shifts (especially instamatic prints whose blue skies turns a cloudy day beige) so it can be difficult to look at the one color photo and say positively one way or another. If they were painted, then some time after 1968 someone had to have gone to the expensive of having it all REMOVED which also seems unlikely.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I also doubted that the buildings had been painted, but the other brick buildings looked normal in the old photo. The bricks look old and worn on both buildings, without much visible mortar as I recall on the corner Thompson building, so I had thought it was possible that the paint had been sandblasted off. However, the Thompson building seems more intact than the Lowe building. Also note the three windows together, one is boarded-up. Looks like the bricks are white above those three, doesn't it? They sell a paint called "Rhino Shield" now. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, but the sales pitch on their website seems hard to beat. Check it out with the link below, and tell me what you think of it. Seems pretty cool, but Lord only knows what the price tag will be.
http://www.rhinoshield.net/
Could the mortar be fixed to blend in better on the Lowe building? Would it require too much work? Also, I wonder how hard it would be to find replacement bricks for the Lowe building. Another possibility would be to attach a thin facade (fake brick?) to the front of the Lowe building to hide the damaged brick. Looking at the first picture of it that I attached, the bricks on the first storefront level look bad in the top left corner. I assumed that the visible water damage inside the left storefront window (See the paint peelings hanging down) was from water leakage clean down from the damaged roof. I have close ups posted. There is minor damage on the right side, mostly brown, dried, water droplets. However, the pictures of the second floor just above it don’t seem to have much of any water damage, unless the water just ran down through the wall. (See the ghost-busting video on youtube.com, link below) The video, ignoring most of the commentary, has some interesting shots that aren’t on the website. I believe the first set of the interior shots are the second floor of the Lowe building, which the website doesn’t really show. The room directly above the damage is not shown, but the room next to it is, @7:03 minutes into the video; or I could be wrong on that location. I had never thought that the water could have come in from those badly-damaged bricks. Or, perhaps, as you had stated, deterioration of the fire escapes above. The fire escapes don’t seem that difficult to remove, but then again, I have never seen someone remove them. How exactly, are they anchored? Are they illegal to remove, without replacing? If the top floor were taken off, the fire escape would look incomplete, and I would assume the best bet would be to remove the rest of it entirely. Must bring in some money as scrap metal, anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvhJiP25y9Q
It is listed for $22,900 at the moment. What are the benefits of paying insurance and property taxes separately? I assumed it would be easier to pay them all together, but I am obviously new to this home buying thing. If I bought the building, I am sure I could patch the roof then tar it myself, afford dumpster rental for the first summer to gut out old, damaged walls and pitch debris, and then have the time to clean the place top to bottom. I don’t know what it would cost to replicate the missing woodwork outside, but I would like to get that done the first summer as well, then paint it all with a fresh coat; preferably oil-based. The old paint is most likely oil-based. I am sure that the woodwork pieces that are still there could be molded to make cheap yet matching replacements. You will see a few close ups of damaged woodwork that I got yesterday below with the Lowe pictures. The fourth floor attic turret is pictured, and in the worst shape. The wood work is better on the third floor turret, and even better on the second floor. Some of the old woodwork could be replicated with a steady hand and a router. All of the exterior windows need glazed/puttied and primered/repainted; possibly epoxied before they are primered/repainted as well. I think I could take a router and make permanent weather-stripping on the windows to seal out drafts. There are a few "interior" windows that can be worried about later. After all of that, and possibly a good cleaning for the bricks, the exterior of the building would look almost as good as new; better than it has in years. I would also have to rip out old carpets, strip old wallpaper, etc… 

Once it was gutted, cleaned, windows repaired, and roof sealed, the rest would come at a much slower pace. I do plan on inspecting the place very well before hand, as you suggested. People have told me that I have an eye for detail, too. I would try to get an idea on the materials needed, to see if I could afford it. I have experience in fluxing and soldering copper pipes, some electrical/HVAC experience, but minimal drywall/sheetrock experience. I’m sure the wallboard couldn’t be that difficult to get the hang of, though. Don’t know if you saw the picture of the furnace, on the 6th page (I think), but that boiler looked OLD. It didn’t appear that this specific furnace was ever coal powered though, looked to be gas from the beginning. The only water-heater that I saw was on the third page, and it appeared very old as well, and disconnected. It was sitting in the hallway. The Lowe building and the main storefront for the Thompson building (Liberty Tax) appear to have individual, new, gas powered, forced air furnaces in them. I’d assume the boiler covers most of the upstairs. Not sure if there are seperate ones for the two buildings, but I hope so.

It has been my dream for a long time to own and repair a building like this one. I wouldn't know where to begin on the budget if I didn't get at least one good inspection. Most things don't seem too expensive, but I'm sure it will all add up. All the insulation will certianly add up for all exterior-facing areas on a building this big. What would you suggest as the best insulation for walls? How about the upper-most ceilings? I don't know what romex or electrical wires run for price-wise. If the electrical is upgraded in the kitchen, laundry, and utility/HVAC areas, that should take alot of the load off the old knob-and-tube, and I think it could handle living and bedding areas, as well as lighting certainly. I'd say new electrical to any and all window air units, probably on individual circuits as well. I think PVC would be a decent replacement for rotted copper/galvanized/cast iron drainpipes. Leaking copper joints could be re-soldered. Good plasterboard only runs for 8 dollars or so per 4' by 8' sheets, but I'm sure that will add up too.

There are two total buildings involved, the Lowe building and the Thompson building, just to clairfy. The back portion of the Thompson building is where the old Electrical Panel Thread started out, that is part of the corner building for certain. If you saw the old Fire Insurance map on page two of pictures, you'd see that the Thompson building is an L-shape, because of the back portion. The upstairs area of the back portion would make at least two apartments, considering that it is seperate from the main part of the corner building. Did that other guy on the old forum have anything going when he said that it would be strict rules to re-issue occupancy permits? I'm sure every area varies, but it shouldn't be too bad, I wouldn't think. Do all areas even require occupancy permits, or are those just for dilapatated/rehabilitated buildings? The tricky thing about the Lowe building is that it is connected on most of the upper floors. If I only bought the Thompson building, those areas would all have to be bricked up or just covered over, not quite sure how close the buildings were connected. (See the last attached picture) I'm sure the connected basements would simply be a matter of cinder-bricking the wall up between the two. 

Don't forget that the higher the floor, the worse the damage. The second floor wasn't too bad as seen on the first page of pictures, but that God-awful green was painted on all the woodwork. That was just a cosmetic issue, though. Third floor is completely trashed. The store fronts look like they could be rented out (You'd be lucky to make $300-500 in this area, there is not a high demand), and there is minimal damage on the lower levels, no water damage in the Thompson building that low. Basments were part of the dry goods store that started out there in 1892, so they have some interesting tin ceilings and woodwork, but most of the tin is rusted out down there. The cellar is nicer than most are, though. I won't even begin to take any action on it until the spring rolls around. I think the owners brother owns the mens store next to the Lowe building, so it shouldn't be hard to contact them. I will think about just offering for the corner building, but I don't know if they'd only sell the one. Plus, if the Lowe building continues to deteroriate, it could cause damage to the Thompson building just from water run-off. What would it cost to remove a floor of bricks, assuming a construction company came in and took off the top floor of the Lowe building? It would be awesome if someone would do it, and just take all the bricks to be reused as payment.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> It does appear to be painted white, though I've seen anomalies in old photos with fading and color shifts (especially instamatic prints whose blue skies turns a cloudy day beige) so it can be difficult to look at the one color photo and say positively one way or another. If they were painted, then some time after 1968 someone had to have gone to the expensive of having it all REMOVED which also seems unlikely.


Hey.. did you see my last post? Also, I went ahead and posted a picture of the old boiler from the cellar of the building in the HVAC section, and the people there didn't think too highly of it.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f17/ancient-boiler-170660/


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

That looks pretty shot, abused, neglected, possibly frozen at least once and that's all it takes!
I am amazed the gas meter is directly next to this, that seems like a dangerous spot to put a meter!

If it's about 750,000 BTU, you can figure that's about what they originally figured it would take to heat the building, but you don't know know to what comfort level they allowed for 75 degrees or 60 degrees.
Assuming it's about 55% efficient as someone suggested, maybe a modern more efficient unit maybe 500,000 BTU getting at least 90% would be close.
Rememebr too, the all brick uninsulated building has an R value of single digits, if the attic space is insulated and the exterior walls are, and if the windows had double glass it would substantially reduce what's need to heat. If you have to remove/repair the insides of the exterior walls ANYWAY, thats when you can fit insulation in there for little more than the materials cost, and that would be well worth it!

Just Googling for an example to get an idea of cost, I found:
*Dunkirk D248A600A20 D248 Commercial Series Electronic Ignition, Gas Fired, Steam Boiler, Taco Pump, 80% - 600,000 BTU*



Steam System
Natural Gas
Cast Iron Heat Exchanger
Vertical Vented
Price: $6,789.99


That's just for the boiler unit, no installation, chimney, piping or radiator/repair/replacement if needed.


So You are looking at at least $10,000 for a unit like that to get it to the basement, set in place, and a start on the distribution systems.
That's not a whole lot but that one system alone is half the cost of what the owner is trying to sell the building for.
Other options might be looking at zone heat/cool rather than central, by this I mean each "apartment" or whatever has their own unit which they control, and which runs on THEIR electric and gas bill, while you can do with a much smaller unit that would cover any public space such as the hallways etc.
Still, you would have to buy those units and install them, and buying say 4 of those or however many are needed, likely would cost about the same outlay as the one boiler in the basement, though maybe you can buy and put those in when an apartment is rented.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> That looks pretty shot, abused, neglected, possibly frozen at least once and that's all it takes!
> I am amazed the gas meter is directly next to this, that seems like a dangerous spot to put a meter!
> 
> If it's about 750,000 BTU, you can figure that's about what they originally figured it would take to heat the building, but you don't know know to what comfort level they allowed for 75 degrees or 60 degrees.
> ...


It just hit me... it is possible that the ancient boiler is in the basement of the Lowe building, and it might only heat the Lowe building. Just another possibility; the basements are connected on the two buildings. Not to mention, most of the interior shots of the Lowe building have a radiator in them. Not sure how many, if any, rooms of the Thompson building have radiators in them. Hopefully the boiler only covers the Lowe building. If so, I probably wouldn't even worry about replacing it for years to come. Might make some cash on scrap metal, one day.

Did you see my last long post from the other day, with the six pictures I took of old woodwork and the Lowe building storefront? The one with the white on the bricks above the windows always confused me, that's why I assumed it may have been painted and blasted off.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> It just hit me... it is possible that the ancient boiler is in the basement of the Lowe building, and it might only heat the Lowe building. Just another possibility; the basements are connected on the two buildings. Not to mention, most of the interior shots of the Lowe building have a radiator in them. Not sure how many, if any, rooms of the Thompson building have radiators in them. Hopefully the boiler only covers the Lowe building. If so, I probably wouldn't even worry about replacing it for years to come. Might make some cash on scrap metal, one day.


If it only heats the Lowe building then you have a new problem-the condition and size of whatever else is heating the Thompson building, it could be bigger and worse, bigger since the Thompson building is bigger, exposed on an additional side with more windows.
The stores could be heating themselves with space heaters or some alternate due to a larger boiler in there going defunct besides the one in the pictures.
I doubt they would fire up anything this size just for the little ground floor store(s) and with the conditions upstairs I doubt any central heating system could even be working.

You'll either find the stores have some alternate heat like one of those hanging "Modine" heaters, or something else, and that either the boiler you have pics of heated it all once, or there is yet another boiler or furnace somewhere else you haven't found yet.




> "Did you see my last long post from the other day, with the six pictures I took of old woodwork and the Lowe building storefront? The one with the white on the bricks above the windows always confused me, that's why I assumed it may have been painted and blasted off


I did, it could have been whitewashed or painted, seems difficult to imagine anyone spending the tens of thousands it would have cost to sandblast the paint off the entire facade, especially since the total neglect of these buildings is so obvious and has been ongoing for years.
The apparant paint dated to the photo from about 1966?
Your buildings dept may have an archive of permits and improvements over the years, the answer may be in there in the form of a permit for painting or sandblasting as either would likely require extensive scaffolding to be set up on the public sidewalk.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Could the mortar be fixed to blend in better on the Lowe building? Would it require too much work? Also, I wonder how hard it would be to find replacement bricks for the Lowe building. Another possibility would be to attach a thin facade (fake brick?) to the front of the Lowe building to hide the damaged brick. [/QUOTE]

Mortaring to that degree is more art than anything, it's a skill you can learn but one that takes years to master. The problem is every cement and sand differs in color a little depending on where it's from, it will also vary in color depending on the ratio of sand to cement, and what you might add to it like lime. You can add tints to the mix too, but it has to be the right color, and mixed exactly the same every batch.
I would never suggest adhering a veneer of brick over the existing, fake or otherwise. If you really REALLY feel the need to do something to blend it in more, I don't know, maybe you can paint just the top floor to a color that's matched up by a pro to what's below it, but adhering stuff to the brick facade 4 floors above the sidewalk is a real bad idea and it too won't perfectly blend either, not in texture or color.




> I assumed that the visible water damage inside the left storefront window (See the paint peelings hanging down) was from water leakage clean down from the damaged roof.


The water is running down inside the wall cavities then and exiting there, it's still saturated everything above, yet there's enough water left after doing that- to wind up inside the ground floor store windows.




> What are the benefits of paying insurance and property taxes separately?


 You get to choose your OWN insurance co and policy, deductables etc and you have more control over your monthly cost if something bad happens with income. If it's your house and you are paying $250/mo for the loan and insurance is another $75/mo on top, and taxes another $100, if your income dropped suddenly you pay that $250 mortgage so you have a roof over your head, the insurance can go bye bye and the taxes are only due usually once a year and won't go into default for months or more after it's due.
If you pay the bank for all that, it might cost more, and your monthly payment for it all goes to them, in this example say $425/mo you'd better pay that $450 each month or you go into default real fast. Far easier to get $250 and say screw the insurance, work out something on the taxes and still have a roof over your head.
Not all lenders will allow this, it may depend on the size of the loan.
In MY case, the taxes on the building are $1,000 but I sent in the required one page form for the not-for-pofit exemption since it's a non profit project. Even the county assessor had to query another (larger) county because she had never run into this before now, but Iowa state code specifies what is allowed as exempt, and it states that privately owned art galleries, open to the public, non for profit use is included.
You won't have that luxury on your project unless you were planning to convert it's present use/occupancy to one that is non profit.




> I am sure I could patch the roof then tar it myself, afford dumpster rental for the first summer to


All doable, I might even be able to do something for you on the woodwork for a fee.
You would not need to use oil paint, I only used oil paint on the ceiling in my building because it's tin (pressed steel) and even though it's been painted before, people making the mistake of painting these ceiling with latex (water based paint) discover in about 2 years that the moisture in the paint apparantly migrated thru the paint into the steel and caused corrosion, and all the paint starts peeling off.
Oil paint is a real pain to paint ceilings and things with, stick with a good brand/quality latex. I happen to like the Hardware Hank house brand, it's very good quality, very thick bodied and covers well.




> Once it was gutted, cleaned, windows repaired, and roof sealed, the rest would come at a much slower pace.


You may find it of help to find a class this summer maybe at a nearby college or something similar, check if they have some kind of general community non-credit type class (open to everyone regardless of age/schooling) to gain some basic home repairs skills, you may find some that are specialty with a narrower focus like carpentry and roofing together, plumbing and electric together, so it may require more than one class to get broad coverage.
You'll need plumbing, electrical, carpentry, masonry, roofing, insulating or energy efficiency, some trades will overlap a bit- plumbing and that boiler's piping, rough carpentry and installing finished floors, masonry and plastering or sheetrock.
You certainly can do the WORK yourself, but with the extensive scope of what you need to do, plus the fact you may be remodelling this into residences for the public- you will certainly need permits and inspections, you can get the permits you need, you would likely need to pay a licensed guy to check out your work, an electrician to deal with the incoming lines and circuit panels etc

The other issue that come to mind on this- most places have some sort of time limit on work completion of this sort, now, it might be in your area that as long as the visible exterior looks good, they won't care too much how long the interior work takes, but the permit(s) may only be good for a year or 6 months, and you may have to renew it /them (if they allow you to, some may not)
I have read of remodelling projects where the owners dragged it on and on and on and the city finally ordered the place demolished as a safety hazzard and eyesore, so the very best FIRST thing you'd want to do aside from patching the leaks in the roof is get the exterior work completed ASAP- all the missing wood elements replaced, everything caulked and painted, glass and windows repaired or replaced as you see fit.
You can rent or borrow a rolling scaffolding, you'll need it!
Once you have the exterior looking good and the roof has stopped leaking, I'm pretty sure you can take your time on the interior a bit.




> but that boiler looked OLD. It didn’t appear that this specific furnace was ever coal powered


That boiler almost certainly replaced the original one from the 1800s when the building was built, it's almost a sure bet they burned coal, and there would be (have been) a coal bunker under one of the sidewalks, or a shute in the sidewalk near the wall leading to a storage area in the basement. Most likely it's been covered over by new sidewalks. Gas heating did not come into widespread use until the last half of the 20th century, it's relatively new, coal however was plentiful, cheap, put out lots of heat, and it was what I used for heat in the 1980s in New York City, you could still have coal delivered there. The old boilers that burned coal also had some automatic feeders on them in larger buildings.



> appear to have individual, new, gas powered, forced air furnaces in them.


That verifies what I thought- that if there WERE 2 boilers and you only saw one, that the other one must be as defunct since you saw individual forced air gas furnaces.



> It has been my dream for a long time to own and repair a building like this one.


I only wish your dream building was just one building and a bit smaller!
Yeah, where to begin on the budget... true, on the surface most materials are not too bad price wise, you can get sheets of CDX plywood for things like flooring and the roof deck for around $15 a sheet, that's cheap enough, but my 20x42' gallery floor in the front- it took 5 sheets to span the width, and 5 rows of them to reach 40', that's 25 sheets plus 2 more to cover the 20' x 2' spot. 27 sheets of 5/8" CDX all of which I had to haul in my car via 3 trips to Menards 35 miles away (local lumber place wanted almost twice that price and they didn't have 5/8") that was about $450 there. The oak parque tile flooring I planned to get at Menards that was always around a buck a sq foot I figured $900 for the tile to cover the floor- they no longer CARRY the tile and the cheapest elsewhere is closer to $3 a foot and up now.
Every dollar the floor covering costs higher is another $900 on top of what I PLANNED to spend.
You'll find water and sewer pipe is pretty cheap, it's the valves and fittings that they rake you over the coals with on price. You might pay $6.99 for a 10' piece of PVC pipe, then find the shutoff valves for the sink are $14.99 EACH, and the elbows are $4.99 each and so on. You can buy a new toilet for around $100 at Menards, cheap enough if you only need one, but if you need 8, plus 8 $20 toilet seats, plus 8 $14.99 shut of valves, well, you can see how they add up in a hurry.

Roofing, the same thing, you see the price might be $125 a square (10x10') for shingles and that doesn't seem bad, untill you do the measurements and find you need to cover 30 squares worth of roof, plus all the flashing, vents etc (haul it all up 4 flights and put it all in)


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> I think PVC would be a decent replacement for rotted copper/galvanized/cast iron drainpipes. Leaking copper joints could be re-soldered. Good plasterboard only runs for 8 dollars or so per 4' by 8' sheets, but I'm sure that will add up too.


 Cast iron doesn't usually go bad unless it's hit by something and cracked, otherwise PVC works fine for drainpipes, personally I never use plastic pipes for water. Copper can be soldered but it has to be CLEAN to bright metal and fluxed, it also can't have water in the pipe when soldering, even small amounts act like a major heat-sink.




> Did that other guy on the old forum have anything going when he said that it would be strict rules to re-issue occupancy permits? I'm sure every area varies, but it shouldn't be too bad, I wouldn't think. Do all areas even require occupancy permits, or are those just for dilapatated/rehabilitated buildings?


 I don't know what other guy on what forum... but as far as occupancy permits, I can't say for sure, but I am 99% certain you DO need one in some form for any building that is to be occupied as a dwelling, or where the public will access. I am sure there are variances in fees and requirements, but I have no doubt some kind of formal official sanction is required by the county along with zoning rules be met.
In a city like New York City, the Dept of Buildings issues (or used to) an actual little sign with the building's registration number on it and it was required to be installed in a certain location.
If you change the building from what it is now zoned as, to something else, you'll certainly have to do paperwork and all for a variance. It would be more stringent and harder to do if you are converting a commercial building to residences.



> The tricky thing about the Lowe building is that it is connected on most of the upper floors. If I only bought the Thompson building, those areas would all have to be bricked up or just covered over, not quite sure how close the buildings were connected. (See the last attached picture) I'm sure the connected basements would simply be a matter of cinder-bricking the wall up between the two.


 Personally I'd rather brick up a few doorways than deal with two buildings, and actually, I am sure those buildings were originally separate and later had holes punched thru the walls. Cement block is easy to work with, and the blocks are typically cheap, last time I bought some was last spring and I think they were around $1.25 each.


> "What would it cost to remove a floor of bricks, assuming a construction company came in and took off the top floor of the Lowe building? It would be awesome if someone would do it, and just take all the bricks to be reused as payment.


Quite a bit I imagine, but since you likely have to replace at least portions of the roof otherwise, if the roof is to be replaced because rafters are rotted and the deck is too (likely) then there's only the brick to remove. It would be a big job neverthe less, and I doubt you will find anyone willing to do the job for the bricks. The bricks are worth something, but used brick is as common as grass, they even sell used brick by the pallet on Ebay, for around $1 a brick or even a lot less, cleaned and ready to go.
It would be a demolition company who would do that kind of work usually.

It certainly WOULD be awesome if you can find someone to do it for the bricks, but George Washington's slaves didn't hand press those bricks, so they aren't worth more than about a buck a piece for whole unbroken ones, some people use them as pavers and in the garden.



> All the insulation will certianly add up for all exterior-facing areas on a building this big. What would you suggest as the best insulation for walls? How about the upper-most ceilings?


It shouldn't be too bad, you can get rolls of it, I would say probably for this the standard spun glass wood insulation in rolls, it tends to fill irregular spaces a lot better than rigid insulation boards. Your interior walls would have used real 2x4 lumber, it's been my experience in NYC they used that on the inside of exterior walls too- leaving about a 4" cavity, but that may not be typical of all areas, and you might even find they attached thin cleats to the brick and lathe/plaster on that, leaving only a very small gap.
If there's 4" I'd certainly fill it up, the 3-1/2" thick stuff would work, more is better but you want to avoid compressing it to fit, also, your code may require a certain amount like 6", if so that can be done simply by adding to the existing 2x4's to make the cavity deeper.
The ceiling on the top floor is almost certainly going to have a cockloft between it and the roof rafters, you can use the roll insulation, batts, or blown in insulation which is usually easier and quicker. You can do that yourself, and where you get the bags of blow-in insulation they usually have a machine to use free if you buy X number of bags. Getting the machine up 4 flights of stairs I don't know...
The roof must be water tight before you put in ANY insulation anywhere, or the insulation will suck up water like a sponge and be ruined.



> I don't know what romex or electrical wires run for price-wise. If the electrical is upgraded in the kitchen, laundry, and utility/HVAC areas, that should take alot of the load off the old knob-and-tube, and I think it could handle living and bedding areas, as well as lighting certainly.


Oh you are in for sticker shock there, the price of copper has skyrocketed, as a result all romex and copper wire has dramatically increased. I bought 3 rolls, 500' each of the THHN #12 copper wire on Ebay and got the best price by a lot of shopping around.
Menards has it here for $60 a roll + 8% sales tax, but Menards is a 60 mile drive, I found my black and white wire for $68 each brand new unopened, shipped to my door.
Knowing I didn't need as much green ground wire I found a partially used roll on ebay with still 475 feet on it for $34, with postage it was about $40.
I bought the 2 boxes of wire nuts I needed on Amazon for less than I could get them at the local hardware store.
The #8 romex I needed for my kiln was $3 a foot, the receptacle was $17.

You'll definitely want to shop Menards, Lowes, or Home Depot, as well as Amazon.com and Ebay. You can buy almost anything on Amazon and Ebay, including electrical, plumbing, construction materials, appliances, flooring, and even roofing.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

One thing I find with old buildings is once you find it is worth saving and you are going to go ahead with it. The best thing you can do is invest in a complete rehab of the roof. Then you will be able to work inside without worrying about further damage.


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## rrolleston (Oct 17, 2011)

RWolff said:


> You'll definitely want to shop Menards, Lowes, or Home Depot, as well as Amazon.com and Ebay. You can buy almost anything on Amazon and Ebay, including electrical, plumbing, construction materials, appliances, flooring, and even roofing.


Could also price local supply houses sometimes you will be surprised. My local supply house is usually cheaper than any of the big box stores.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

rrolleston said:


> Could also price local supply houses sometimes you will be surprised. My local supply house is usually cheaper than any of the big box stores.


Yep, he could, I sure can't, there's no "local" supply houses anywhere around me in a little town of 1,800 people in the middle of nowhere.
Only thing here is the local hardware store and lumber yard where everything is 50% higher, or limited selection. That's why I buy maybe 95% of everything I need- on line, even dog food for my dogs I have shipped in- it's usually cheaper to start with and delivered to my door for a lot less than I'd pay here.

As an example- the local hardware store has #12 THHN solid copper wire, a spool of 500' is $129 plus 7.5% tax, I found the same item on Ebay from an electrical supply house for $68 to my door. Menards sells it for about $60 but then there's tax and its a 60 mile drive on top- another $20 in gas.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> "Now is the time to start learning if you are truly serious about owning these 2 buildings, if there's no local 4-8 week public classes at a University or equiv in your area to learn basic carpentry/construction, plumbing/electric/roofing/flooring etc then you'd be wise to take a trip to the library or to Amazon.com and start picking up some how-to books so you have at least that much behind you to refer to. Yes, I know, before anyone says something about learning to do complex systems from a book- at least it's something to refer to, would usually include basic information on acceptable/normal/standard practices and methods etc. The electrical book will give you ideas on what kind/size wiring you would need, how high up from the floor wall switches have to be, outlets etc. It's all good reference material and basics, but the grunt work, dealing with things not in the book to guide you, and all the rest you'll have to learn by doing!"


I don't know if there are any classes, but that would be helpful to reinforce any experience I might have. I have a few basic books, but I will look into finding some more. I have learned alot just from some Youtube videos, plus from my step-father with various home improvement projects over the years. He has a background in Plumbing, HVAC, and some experience in electrical. I wouldn't go to the point of installing extra electrical outlets, if the current outlet's electrical boxes are installed properly, assuming there are more than one per room. I have been in several old victorican homes with one outlet per bedroom. They probably started out with 60 amp service too. I am usually a more hands-on person.

Don't mind my slow-ness here, I have alot more to respond to. I'm taking my time


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Yep, he could, I sure can't, there's no "local" supply houses anywhere around me in a little town of 1,800 people in the middle of nowhere.
> Only thing here is the local hardware store and lumber yard where everything is 50% higher, or limited selection. That's why I buy maybe 95% of everything I need- on line, even dog food for my dogs I have shipped in- it's usually cheaper to start with and delivered to my door for a lot less than I'd pay here.
> 
> As an example- the local hardware store has #12 THHN solid copper wire, a spool of 500' is $129 plus 7.5% tax, I found the same item on Ebay from an electrical supply house for $68 to my door. Menards sells it for about $60 but then there's tax and its a 60 mile drive on top- another $20 in gas.


We have a local over-priced hardware store, and Lowes/Home Depot is 30+ minutes out of town. No Mernards anywhere near here. Internet would be a good idea.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

rrolleston said:


> One thing I find with old buildings is once you find it is worth saving and you are going to go ahead with it. The best thing you can do is invest in a complete rehab of the roof. Then you will be able to work inside without worrying about further damage.


Roof on this building certainly needs re-done, or very heavily tarred then re-done shortly there-after.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/Thompson Building.htm


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Roof on this building certainly needs re-done, or very heavily tarred then re-done shortly there-after.
> 
> http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/Thompson%20Building.htm



Don't start going the"temporary" route with an eye of fixing it right "later", 9 times out of 10 the "later" comes and it's still temporarily fixed and now needs to be fixed AGAIN.
By all means PATCH the visible holes and areas of leaking for now, but I wouldn't waste the money to re-tar the entire roof only to tear it all off a year later.
The roof is going to be your most important surface of all, concentrate on getting that fixed right, quickly, the first time.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> 1


"If it only heats the Lowe building then you have a new problem-the condition and size of whatever else is heating the Thompson building, it could be bigger and worse, bigger since the Thompson building is bigger, exposed on an additional side with more windows."
Never thought of that. Hopefully it was added when the buildings were connected. One of the three exposed sides used to be covered, before the top two floors of a neighbor building were torn down after the 1968 Diamond fire (historical district) as I think I had mentioned once.
　
"The stores could be heating themselves with space heaters or some alternate due to a larger boiler in there going defunct besides the one in the pictures"
The two stores that have been used recently (Lowe building) and the Liberty Tax bellow a portion of Thompson building have seperate Forced-air furnaces. Halfway down page five on the historical society website shows both store fronts inside. You'll see new heating vents installed on ceiling-level in both. I believe both have their own new furnaces, gas bill likely paid by the renters. Probably because they didn't want to pay for each other's gas. Neither did the owner. The listing info said seperate utilities were paid in the storefronts.
　
"I did, it could have been whitewashed or painted, seems difficult to imagine anyone spending the tens of thousands it would have cost to sandblast the paint off the entire facade, especially since the total neglect of these buildings is so obvious and has been ongoing for years."
Above those windows is the only white spot, so it shouldn't be too hard to remove it. The Columbiana courthouse (Lisbon, OH) might have those records with property records as well.
　
"I would never suggest adhering a veneer of brick over the existing, fake or otherwise. If you really REALLY feel the need to do something to blend it in more, I don't know, maybe you can paint just the top floor to a color that's matched up by a pro to what's below it, but adhering stuff to the brick facade 4 floors above the sidewalk is a real bad idea and it too won't perfectly blend either, not in texture or color."
I am not worried about that fourth floor. I had mentioned earlier it would be best removed. I am talking about the very small amounts of brick visible beside the storefront windows of the Lowe building. Seems very damaged at street level. Might be a cheap idea to just cover the lower storefront level, while appearing decent to a possible renter.
　
"The water is running down inside the wall cavities then and exiting there, it's still saturated everything above, yet there's enough water left after doing that- to wind up inside the ground floor store windows."
When the roof is sealed, the storefront level could be easily repaired in that small area, considering the rest of the groundfloor is in perfect shape. The plaster didn't look too bad at all in the picture above the less-damaged side. Didn't remember seeing a picture above the other side. I didn't know it would be that expensive to have a floor knocked off. I could just brick up a few doorways, but I hope water runoff from the Lowe building wouldn't damage the Thompson building. They certainly aren't going to start renovating the Lowe building if they keep it.
　
"You would not need to use oil paint"
I have used it, and I know it's tricky. I just assumed it would buy me more time inbetween paint jobs because it is usually more durable. The old paint is probably so worn, with a bit of scraping and sanding, anything will stick. If it really donesn't make a difference, I'll just stick with primer and latex. If I decided to purchase this building one day, I may just come to you for the woodwork.
　
"Once you have the exterior looking good and the roof has stopped leaking, I'm pretty sure you can take your time on the interior a bit."
That's exactly what I would intended on doing. Completely patching then taring the roof, and afterward restoring woodwork and windows from the top down, thus making the exterior look like it was well taken care of. I am hoping the few boarded-up windows have the original sashes inside. If not, wooden sashes are still pretty much the same if they are sized properly. New shash cords and glazing/paint are obviously a must. If time allows, I'd love to strip the paint from the interior of the windows and refinish to a nice wood grain. Hopefully the original wasn't a faux grain. That would be a real pain. I am sure scaffolding would be necessary for painting above the ground, or possibly the second, level. What would renting some be, price-wise? Renting one rolling section wouldn't be too much, I'd imagine. As you stated, I'd have to check if the rental areas needed inspected before occupation. I attached a picture bellow to clairfy which area was the seperate back section. From pictures, I think the second and third stories would each comfortably house a two bedroom apartment unit. While I don't know alot about boiler systems, I have helped install duct work, and could handle that if small forced-air furnaces were installed in those apartments.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> 2QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Don't start going the"temporary" route with an eye of fixing it right "later", 9 times out of 10 the "later" comes and it's still temporarily fixed and now needs to be fixed AGAIN.
> By all means PATCH the visible holes and areas of leaking for now, but I wouldn't waste the money to re-tar the entire roof only to tear it all off a year later.
> The roof is going to be your most important surface of all, concentrate on getting that fixed right, quickly, the first time.


I didn't think that tarring the roof would run that much. It it were patched on the more solid Thompson building roof, then tarred with a few 5-gallon buckets, would that hold out several years? I'm sure the drainage system needs cleaned out to keep water from pooling on the roof. The Lowe roof would probably collapse under the weight of someone standing on it; I'm sure it needs entirely replaced the first time, preferrably after the fourth floor was ripped off.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> RWolff said:
> 
> 
> > 2QUOTE]
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I know how tricky coal is, but I heard it was cheaper still. Maybe not anymore, though. My grandfather would always talk about how cheap it was, and what good heat it provided. Then, he would talk how he hated shoveling it into the furnace, banking it at night, and messing with the flue and damper. I know it's messy too, but the ash makes for great traction on a driveway in the wintertime. Grandpa said they always took the ash out of the furnace and spread it over the driveway. I would have no problem making use of it. Makes great fertilizer for gardens, too. I guess it would be a bit more problematic dealing with the ash in the city, though.

I know you can't use shingles, I was just refrencing what you said. Tar and Tar paper sounds doable, but it probably wouldn't last too long. I just went out and looked up flat roofs a bit, and the new DIY-friendly peel-and-stick sounds good, but it usually only has a ten year warranty. That price you qouted was crazy! I'm sure if the bubbles were sliced open, dried, and patched, and rips were patched with roofing cement and tar paper, the roof would hold out longer. If you then bought several 5 gal cans of specialized roofing tar sealant, the roof would probably last even longer. Honestly, it doesn't seem too bad right now. Can you tell what it's made out of? I thought it was some type of rubber, but then I saw that it was white under the tar they once put over it. See a close-up of the roof in the attached picture bellow. You can see the roof access that I believe is the small blocked-up staircase on the website. That chimney doesn't look too good either. A few pictures of rooms bellow chimneys show that alot of water is leaking around them.

I suppose I never have really paid attention to plumbing pieces before. I have never really paid attention to even the price of lumber. Funny, because I love to visit the hardware store. I'll have to take a better look around next time. Four inches is the standard for toilet drains, right? That's the biggest one would usually need, I'm sure. I think showers and sinks are usually 1 1/2 inch. That's what the kitchen sink took when I replaced a rotted out chrome U-trap and an elbow piece. However, our tub drains incredibly slow. A wider pipe might help.

Even if there was asbestos in it, I would have used a mask and a heat gun CAREFULLY to remove the linoleum to get to the original hardwoods. I think it would be worth it to sand them, and have them showing nicely. The plywood could add too much thickness for doors. Historic houses are worth more with original hardwood floors intact; of course if they are in nice shape.

So would I just have to see the city planning department for occupancy permits? We have a good 11,000 residents in East Liverpool now. Down from 25,000 or so in it's heyday in the mid 50's. I'll have to look up the local codes and restrictions tomorrow. I'd imagine it would beg for trouble if one were to simply sign a lease with a renter without any occupancy permits. I don't know how tight the restrictions are here on these type of things. However, I have heard horror stories from friends who used rent apartments designated for those in the poverty level around here. One went that the building's electricity went out from time to time, winters were always cold, there was no hot water (Imagine all cold showers in the winter), and the worst part... they woke up around midnight one night to the floor "moving" (Cockroaches were having a party). Not pleasant. I would plan to provide a better experience.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> > I know how tricky coal is, but I heard it was cheaper still. Maybe not anymore,
> 
> 
> Definitely not any more, or people would be burning it in protest of high oil and gas heat.
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

“Oh yeah, well you won't be able to spread the ash around driveways much longer if at all in some places, it's being considered a toxic waste, and only a matter of time before it will have to be dealt with like the "toxic" lead paint and "toxic" mercury in thermometers- both so toxic we're led to believe, that just seeing a picture of them will all but give you cancer or something”
Don’t mean to sound like an old man here, but that is just silly. Everything causes cancer according to the government, they pump lab rats full of chemicals until they have cancer, and then, oh no, that causes cancer. Lead paint dust will cause lead poisoning, but only if you are sanding years worth or high lead paint off of woodwork. Wear a good mask, keep good ventilation, and be smart. I used to play with the mercury when one of those thermometers broke, it was smooth and fun to play with. I’m doing just fine now. If I had a coal furnace, I’d spread the ash on the driveway weather the man told me I could or not. What, are the kids rolling around on the driveway eating the black snow?

“The thing with tar is it's BLACK, and black absorbs all the sun's heat, it's not uncommon for black roofs to get well over around 150 degrees in the summer sun, that starts breaking it down. In the winter it gets brittle and can crack, and between sunup and sundown the differences in temperature, expansion and contraction do a number on it too.”
If I am not mistaken, they sell white roof sealant that you can roll on with a brush. I’ll have to look into that. How about those new peel-and-stick roofs? Any thoughts on them? They sell them with white mineral coating too. 

“Yes, that chimney needs pointing for sure, and chimneys are always a big headache for flashing, especially if the original metal installed when the building was built corrodes”
I probably would not attempt repointing brick on the main building, especially street level. However, I think I’d give the chimney a crack at repointing while I was up on the roof. An ugly job wouldn’t really be visible from street level, and it would be more water-tight. I would defiantly re-do the flashing around the chimney, seems to be a lot of leakage around the chimneys on lower levels. I think installing a liner on a chimney is more than a DIY job, but if the chimney is not in use, I would simply cap it up top and keep it water-tight.

“I believe so, it may vary depending on a few things, there's where a plumbing book will come in handy to tell you much of those types of questions.”
I would invest in a book as well, but I would probably also replace with the same sized pipe that was already present, unless it was obviously incorrect. I know some things about plumbing, but I need to touch up on the code. I am not sure quite where it is supposed to vent to the roof. Here’s to hoping it’s already done right for a guide.

“Not me, not 900 sq ft worth!” 
Well, that’s a different story. I would not attempt that much area either. However, if it were a kitchen or a bathroom (10x10 ft. or so) then I would most likely attempt it. Then again, unless I was installing tile and grouting, there would be no need to remove it all. If it were a new kitchen or bathroom floor, and it weren’t too thick, I would clean it, level the holes with putty, and put a new layer of linoleum down. I am speaking of, maybe a small mudroom floor that one would want recovered. Shame they put that much linoleum on your floor.

“_I lived it_ for 4 years in a 9 story 100x200' commercial building that had no hot water anywhere, whose heat was turned off at 5 pm, and went off at 1pm on Saturday and didn't come back on until Monday 7 AM unless the outdoor temperature was 1 degree or lower”
Man, that must have stunk. Wonder why they wouldn’t heat it all the time. And where you mentioned about the sprinkler in the other building you lived in; I can’t believe they let it run for 10 hours! That must have trashed the building. How high up did you live in the building? Bet the landlord was mad. Or did you own it?


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

As I had mentioned earlier, I looked up the white roof coating. I posted a link here for you. Don't know how many five gallon drums a roof like this one will require, but it has great reviews. $72.50 per 5 gal. seems like a good deal for a leak-free enegry efficient roof guarenteed for 7 years.

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-M...=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#specifications

Also, for $73/5 ga. is a very similar product with similar reviews. If the roof were first patched, then this was applied, I think it would make for a great roof over the corner building. Now, the Lowe building... probably too far gone.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...d=-1&keyword=white+roof+coating&storeId=10051


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Wear a good mask, keep good ventilation, and be smart


Yeah the paranoia over lead and mercury has reached epic proportions, just don't EAT paint or swallow the thermometer.
The problem is, the LEGAL problem is, this building is not your private home or bedroom, it would be a rental/commercial building other people use, that means if you create a hazzard or know something like asbestos or lead paint is present and start sanding and removing, and contaminating the place you can be held legally and even criminally responsible for not only the cleanup/remediation costs, but for any damage the tenants etc might have.
There was a building owner in Des Moines who knew there was asbestos in a high rise older building he bought and was renovating:

Jun 22, 2011

Developer Bob Knapp is expected to serve slightly less than three years in federal prison for his role at the head of a conspiracy to ignore federal asbestos regulations during a three-year renovation project at the Equitable Building in downtown Des Moines.
Knapp, was sentenced today to 41 months behind bars. 
Paul Wilson, a longtime Equitable Building engineer, testified this morning that Knapp paid him to work 10-hour shifts on the weekends, with no overtime, to remove pipe coverings and hide them in a dumpster.
Wilson, Knapp and construction supervisor Russ Coco took pains not to ever use the word “asbestos” in public, Wilson testified. Instead, they referred to the need to remove “the product.” That was done, Wilson said, “so that the tenants wouldn’t hear about it and word wouldn’t get around the building.”
Justin Cannon, a $13.50-per-hour construction worker who testified that he helped remove asbestos-containing material and went home wearing clothes caked with construction-related dust.
“If I get sick that’s one thing,” Cannon said in court. “But in 15 years, if one of my kids gets sick, how do I look them in the face? ”

On May 5, 2009, Equitable L.P. was ordered to pay a $500,000 environmental civil penalty for conducting extensive renovations of the historic Equitable Building in downtown Des Moines without taking required precautions for the presence of asbestos-containing material. “This is the largest civil penalty by far in Iowa for asbestos violations,” said Attorney General Tom Miller. “We alleged Equitable L.P. completely ignored asbestos-handling requirements during renovations from 2005 to 2007, until the Iowa DNR became involved.”

Asbestos – which often is present in older building materials – is regulated as a hazardous air pollutant. It can cause lung disease and cancer, especially if it is contained in dust when asbestos-containing material is crumbled, pulverized or reduced to powder. State and federal laws and regulations have stringent requirements for handling regulated asbestos-containing material during demolition or renovations.
The Attorney General’s lawsuit alleged that Equitable L.P., while renovating the top 13 floors of the Equitable Building from 2005 to 2008, failed to inspect for asbestos, failed to provide notice to the Iowa Department of Natural Resources, failed to remove asbestos-containing material before renovation, failed to properly handle the asbestos-containing material disturbed during the renovation, and failed to properly dispose of the material. The first six floors were occupied during the renovation.
The DNR issued an administrative order requiring Equitable L.P. to stop activities until all floors were thoroughly inspected and all asbestos-containing material was removed by a licensed asbestos-abatement contractor – but Equitable L.P. continued with renovation in violation of the order, the suit alleged.




> If I am not mistaken, they sell white roof sealant that you can roll on with a brush. I’ll have to look into that. How about those new peel-and-stick roofs? Any thoughts on them?


Its little more than thick housepaint, I know it well, it's not worth the trip to the hardware store to buy in my opinion. I never heard of peel and stick roofs...


> However, I think I’d give the chimney a crack at repointing while I was up on the roof.


The original old metal flashings were usually installed so the metal went in permanently between the mortar joints, and the rest of the wall or chimney was built on top of it. These days most all flashing I've seen sold in do-it-yourself places is paper thin aluminum, like the aluminum cans- it's so thin you can cut it with paper cutting scissors, it will never last like the thick tin plated or usually copper flashing did, but the flashing needs to be let into the mortar joints, just tacking it to the surface of the brick and globbing some caulk and tar over the joint isn't going to last and that's what a lot of people do..
You ought to be able to do the work yourself, just don't get that cheap paper thin aluminum to do it!



> I would invest in a book as well, but I would probably also replace with the same sized pipe that was already present


That's another thing,you can't always go by what is there now,because there can be codes that had grandfathered in older systems but state once you start altering the system, it ALL has to be brought up to code, and the code may demand a larger size pipe, or more vents, or whatever.
So follow what the book/code says to use not what is there now.




> Shame they put that much linoleum on your floor.


Yes, but that was likely the cheapest solution they had, linoleum tile was always cheap junk but it looked good and was smooth, so a mop could clean the floors well.

“I lived it for 4 years in a 9 story 100x200' commercial building that had no hot water anywhere, whose heat was turned off at 5 pm, and went off at 1pm on Saturday and didn't come back on until Monday 7 AM unless the outdoor temperature was 1 degree or lower”



> Wonder why they wouldn’t heat it all the time.


The two high pressure boilers in the basement were huge, once fired with coal with 9 others, all but 3 were long ago removed, 2 were converted to oil and the 3rd was junk. The building once made it's own power, and had the steam machinery to power the cable car line on Broadway. It was the powerhouse and barn for the cars, and offices and rentals above for revenue.

The 2 boilers burned 5,000 gallons of heating oil a week as it was- heat M-F 7 am -5 pm, sat 8 AM to 1 pm. I know how much they used because I also worked in the building on weekends.
It's a 9 story building with high ceilings huge single pane windows, 2 large airshafts more windows faced, skylights etc. It's 100'x 200' and I had a 1,000 sq ft loft on the 7th floor.

Here it is in 1978












And a view from 1894 from down the street looking North


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> And where you mentioned about the sprinkler in the other building you lived in; I can’t believe they let it run for 10 hours! That must have trashed the building. How high up did you live in the building? Bet the landlord was mad. Or did you own it?


Brooklyn, yeah, it wasn't like anyone had a choice, the story goes- the landlord I rented my space from had bought the place dirt cheap at a city auction, and then rented spaces out advertised as live-in work-in artist or mixed use raw space. He put in a minor amount of work with new bathrooms but they were only framed with studs and outfitted with a toilet, sink and metal shower.
You were to make it livable and provide you own heat if you wanted more.
I rented the top 2 floors in one building (it was 3-4 interconnected buildings) 25'x100' and 25'x50' roughly, for $550/mo. I moved out of the above pictured building to there because my rent had gone from $331 to $656 a month when the lease ended. My main day job at the time paid $5/hour and I worked a full time job and 3-4 part time jobs for a time.

So in that building I had the 2 top floors, floor 4 and 5, the lady below me on the 3rd had a dance studio there and put in a brand new floor 25'x100', the 2nd floor was another guy's place he was fixing up and the ground floor was a storage garage.

What we learned soon enough was the landlord we rented from soon vanished when the city, buildings dept and fire dept started issuing violation notices for hundreds of violations- everything from a wall in one building that was cracked vertically and actually leaning out of plumb, to non functional fire sprinklers, elevator doors with no safety switches/open elevator shaft, no lights in the stairs, floor joists in one building rotted from the wall and falling in and braced with temporary shoring by the tenant, roof leaks etc etc plus not having approval, variances or occupancy permits for residential use of a commercial building.
We further learned he leased the building to another guy, who was a contractor who started some work to appease the violations and get time extensions.
He repaired the whole sprinkler system and got it functional again which was the biggest major violation, but he got in over his head and quit!
Months went by, no landlord, nothing, then we soon discovered the original guy had simply turned the electric on before he rented the spaces out.
The power company one day discovered none of the buildings even had a METER, and that all the power was coming in directly from the street unmetered, so they shut all the power off after demanding the landlord who had already vanished- pay the estimated $35,000 bill then due.
The city foreclosed on the property since the jerk didn't make payments any more, or taxes, and the power was off which meant my elevator was non functional too.
It was shortly after that, some time in January 1984 that it got down near zero for a week and while I was at work the main riser for the sprinker system that passed along the exposed exterior wall in my loft's top floor- froze solid and cracked in half. I didn't know that untill I came home from my Saturday night shift and went to bed, and was awakened by ice cold water dripping on my face around 10 am, and when I was completely awake I hear a big bang upstairs followed by the unmistakable sound of rushing water, and all of a sudden all this water started pouring down from the ceiling like niagara falls.
By the time I got to the back of the place where the stairs were and looked up, I was standing in 2" of water and the water looked like an open fire hydrant on full blast.

I opened my back stairs door and the front elevator shaft door to let the water run out, and it cascaded down to the street in the back, and started filling the basement up from the shaft.
Because the sprinkler system worked, it sent an alarm to the fire dept around the corner and they sent a hook and ladder truck out.

They told me that the amount of water pouring out actually caused a severe pressure drop for the entire block. Since I also agreed to be the building's superintendent and make minor repairs, collect rents etc for the first landlord for $100/mo off the rent, I still had some authority with the other tenants and all, and when the firemen were looking for the shutoff valve I had them break the door in to the garage/storage space as I knew there were no shutoff valves upstairs.
That was when we discovered the guy who repaired the sprinklers had replaced a broken valve near the ceiling with a piece of straight pipe!
About then, a crew from the city water works dept came out and they looked around and found no valve either, and they said that they would have to bring out a crew in the morning and dig up the street to shut it off out there, and that if they do that the water will STAY off.

I noticed a grate on the garage floor and looked in with a flashlight and could see there was an open space under there, so I pulled that up and discovered the water mains and valves under there, the firemen went down to turn the valve off but it hadn't been closed in decades, it took four firemen to shut the valve off!

The system had 200 psi behind it and was originally a pressurized dry system with a special valve that kept the water on one side via air pressure out of the pipes due to their going into unheated areas, but the contractor guy bypassed that and made the system a wet system because the wet/dry valve was defective and it was going to cost thousands of dollars to replace it.

So the water was on about 12 hours I guess before it finally got shut off, of course it totally flooded my place, the danmce studio below me- their new $10,000 floor was totally ruined, the garage/storage on the ground floor had pallets full of newstand magazines- all ruined, the water was 4 feet deep in the basement and also migrated over into the other buildings to some degree.
A business in one of the buildings had bags and bags full of powdered latex and ingredients, all paper sacks, all wet.
In my place everything was soaked and I didn't even have dry clothes, one of the downstairs neighbors who used his space for thigns like teeshirt decal transfers etc loaned me his dry overcoat and I slept that night on a door laid flat over 2 cement blocks in my place.

Now that the fire dept, water dept and others had become involved, it attracted the attention of the city buildings dept and fire headquarters, and a couple of days later I came home from work to find a vacate order from the city and fire dept taped to the building's front door.

Well, us tenants got together and said HELL NO we won't go! and we tore the thing off the door and went about our business.
The city moves slow and it was weeks before anyone did any kind of followup and we all tried negotiating and working with some guy in the city offices, but it was going to be a losing proposition due to all the code and other violations, now a non functional fire sprinkler, use of the commercially zoned building for residential, so I wound up moving out of the city entirely soon after.

There's a whole other story for another time about how I was able to run the building's freight elevator up and down 5 floors without electric so I could move all my stuff out.
See if you can figure out how I might have run an electric freight elevator up and down 5 floors in a building without electric, I think you'll be very surprised. I was 22 at the time, and certainly did not work in the elevator field.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> As I had mentioned earlier, I looked up the white roof coating. I posted a link here for you. Don't know how many five gallon drums a roof like this one will require, but it has great reviews. $72.50 per 5 gal. seems like a good deal for a leak-free enegry efficient roof guarenteed for 7 years.



Yeah but notice that all of the reviews there only rave about how the temperature in the rooms below has decreased- it is a result of applying this white colored material over a black roof, that's what this stuff does best- helps lower the temperature in the attic and rooms below by reflecting the hot sun light instead of absorbing it as black does.

It cant hurt, but dont expect this stuff to plug up cracks and holes so the rain won't come in, it's far too thin to fill any holes.
For your purposes I guess it will buy you time, me, I'd rather fix the my roof right the first time and not dink around with the cost and labor of patching and coating that has to come off again in a year or two.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

There is alot of this building to go around. If all goes well, I'd love to live over part of the main portion as my main residence. Unless there are asbestos floor tiles put in at a later date, this building is pretty well before the era of asbestos, so that really isn't much to be worried about. I would cover over old asbestos floor tiles with new linoleum in any rental area. I would want windows in my residence to be stripped/sanded to original wood and refinished, but I would likely just repaint windows in a rental, unless they were so caked with paint that they would not open. Regardless, I would get any lead/asbestos removal done before any type of inspection on a rental area.

The man you posted about ought to have done renovations before renting out those units... unless the people were already living in them. In that case, asbestos is best left alone unless in damaged/dangerous condition. Even a little ducttape as cover-up would have been a better solution than what he did. If it is in good shape, why would you want to get rid of it? It is an amazing insulator, and it certainly is irreplacable once gone.

Well, you seem to have much more experience than me, so I might just take your word on the white sealant. Are those prices I qouted for you ($72-$73) much more than those of a five gallon drum of tar? They said the white stuff could be painted right over old tar; so, if affordable, the roof could be tarred after being patched, then painted with a coat of the white stuff simply for energy efficiency. The reviews said that it keeps their whole house cooler, and I'd imagine the white coating would also help keep the tar from expanding/contracting and cracking as much in high heat because it reflects the sun. I also saw a pricy coating with a 50 year warranty (bellow). $2000 + is alot, but it comes to a total of 25 gallons to coat a commercial roof.
http://www.bigpaintstore.com/gac-gr...c-gr1600c-5g&gclid=CIzorvqenrUCFQSf4AodI2cASw
I couldn't find much on those new peel and stick roofs, but check out the link bellow. Don't know if this would go well over the current tarpaper roof, but people said it was sturdy enough to replace rusted out floor panels in their cars. Maybe it would even seal the Lowe building roof if done carefully. Tell me what you think about it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_154017-81326-PS625_4294934297__?productId=1018733&Ntt=peel+and+stick&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dpeel%2Band%2Bstick&facetInfo=

So, basically, first install new flashings that are not thin aluminum around the chimney INTO a worn mortar joint like the original one, then repoint the chimney bricks is what you are telling me? Even if that were done, it still couldn't hurt to run a seam of tar or roofing cement along the joint where the flashing is covered, just for an extra good seal. If the original flashings aren't in too bad of shape, it looks like that peel and seal could be used to cover them better than roofing cement for a watertight seal.

So, for the plumbing, just always follow new codes. As previously stated, you can learn an awful lot from just a few youtube.com videos. If the system still works and doesn't leak, I would just leave it alone if it is grandfathered. I'm sure I could get away with replacing a few rotted chrome u-pipes, though, if that is the only real issue. I'm going to have to sit down here and follow up on the local codes to get the hang of them soon.

Do you ever wonder what became of that second building that you told me about? Sounds like it had some serious issues. If the landlord was still gone after they tried to evicted everyone, it probably went abandoned and could have even been torn down by now. I hate slumlords like that... so, who did you pay rent to after the landlord vanished? Free rent sounds fun. Who even kept up with paying the oil bills for the boilers after he left? Now for the elevator... hmm... did you get in the elevator shaft and run the cables manually? Weight the elevator down? I have absolutely no clue, but I am eagar to know now.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999;1109798 Unless there are asbestos floor tiles put in at a later date said:


> Asbestos has been in use for longer than that building is old, it was used extensively for steam pipe coverings- that white plastery powdery stuff encased in a cardboard-like sleave covering steam pipes and valves. Then they started adding it to mortar and concrete, floor tile, roofing. Asbestos building materials have been used in U.S. construction since the 1800s. Asbestos building materials were cheap, strong, and durable.
> 
> Although the link between asbestos and serious health problems was known for centuries, the construction industry continued to use asbestos building materials in most homes, schools and commercial buildings prior to 1975.
> 
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> .


 
I hadn't realized asbestos was used that extensively before the 1920's. I haven't seen anything yet in this building from pictures that I can directly say was asbestos, but there is bound to be some here. I think the main hazard here is lead paint, but that can be controlled with respirators while remodeling. The insulation on the boiler pipes looks more recent, a DIY job where someone ducttaped a foam material or rags to the pipes from the looks of the pictues. Does not look like asbestos there to me. 

I will post a few pictures of an area in the back portion of the building that I think would make a great space for the first rentals. Remember the picture I sent you where I had the back portion circled in red? These pictures are inside that area on the second floor. The first picture shows the "wall of windows" on the second floor from the inside. The damaged wall on the left is a brick division wall between the main and the back portion of the building. I believe the badly damaged spot on the third picture is where a chimney comes down on the opposite side of the wall. Probably could put 2 X 4's over the brick up to the height of the partial wall in the middle of the room and hang drywall. These ceilings are too high and inefficient for a rental. If I knocked out the damaged plaster and lathe (assuming the floor joists above were solid), do you think I could get away with just hanging a drop ceiling down around where that average-hight wall stands? I see where waterpipes are coming in on that wall... with some new electrical it would be ready for a tenant in no time. The fourth picture shows what I believe is the third floor in that back portion... likely the top-left window from the outside of the building.

My dad has original loose-fill vermiculite insulation in his house from the late 50's. Don't know where it was from, or it's R-value, but in recent years he put inexpensive R-19 rolls of batts insulation overtop of the old vermiculite. He figured that the added value of the old insulation to the new would be enough for a decent overall R-value.

You had mentioned that because the tar was black, it will expand and contract and crack after a few years, not to mention holding lots of heat, so if it is affordable, I may just patch and tar the roof, then apply a layer of the white stuff for energy efficiency and hopefully to extend the life of the tar. I am sure the tar will fill holes and stop leaks. Sounds like a good idea, or do you think the white stuff on top is still a waste of time/money?

I agree, self adhesive things don't seem to last as long. But that adhesive ice guard put down over tar paper around the edge of a roof seems pretty good. I will most likely entirely re-do the flashings as you suggested.

Well, at least they fixed that old building up. Or, perhaps, just made it liveable. Wow... that elevator... I would have never thought of that. Wonder how anyone else got their stuff out. Do you think you totaled it, or was it still serviceable? Just when I thought I was border-line hoarder... man, you sure had alot of stuff!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> The insulation on the boiler pipes looks more recent, a DIY job where someone ducttaped a foam material or rags to the pipes from the looks of the pictues. Does not look like asbestos there to me."


Well, lesser risk then is the previous people likely removed all the old asbestos pipe coverings, which means they were likely careless with the removal and disposal and got it on the floor and elsewhere. There's probably traces left but not as bad as it was.



> I will post a few pictures of an area in the back portion of the building that I think would make a great space for the first rentals.
> These ceilings are too high and inefficient for a rental. If I knocked out the damaged plaster and lathe (assuming the floor joists above were solid), do you think I could get away with just hanging a drop ceiling down around where that average-hight wall stands?


Ugh, nothing worse than cheap dropped ceilings, you'd have to re-light or move all the lights too. A ceiling fan is better. My building has 13' ceilings, some fool put adropped ceiling in but it was taken out before I bought and I'm GLAD it's gone!




> My dad has original loose-fill vermiculite insulation in his house from the late 50's. Don't know where it was from, or it's R-value, but in recent years he put inexpensive R-19 rolls of batts insulation overtop of the old vermiculite. He figured that the added value of the old insulation to the new would be enough for a decent overall R-value.


Vermiculite's R value is about 2 per inch, a bit late now I suppose, but the very last thing you ever want to do with vermiculite is disturb it in any way, while laying batts over it is not as bad as drilling out holes for recessed lamps and moving the stuff around, ANY disturbance of this stuff puts the microscopic asbestos particles in the air.
Tests have been done proving this, the stuff produces clouds of microscopic particles, and of course messing around in the attic get's it all over your clothes, hair, shoes and when you leave the attic you inevitably bring this stuff into the room and carpeting below.
My building has 2" of this crap in the attic, soon as I saw it was when I decided to seal the attic up permanently and re-run all the wiring on the ceiling surface. I also caulked every possible crack, crevass and hole. The ceiling is tin, so as long as seams are caulked it's good. The key is leave it 100% undisturbed and it's not an immediate problem, but once you start disturbing it in any way its big trouble!
HVAC, electricians and roofers are at the most risk as these persons would be working long hours around this material cutting holes for ceiling lights and wiring, vents etc. and digging in it. Then they climb down into the living space and get the stuff on the carpeting etc and of course the carpets will get vacuumed and the particles are so small they go through the normal paper/bag type vacuum cleaner filters and into the air.
Then the worker gets in their vehicle, contaminates that, goes into their home and take off their dirty work clothes which usually the wife puts in the washer.

It's an insidious, terrible material.




> You had mentioned that because the tar was black, it will expand and contract and crack after a few years, not to mention holding lots of heat, so if it is affordable, I may just patch and tar the roof, then apply a layer of the white stuff for energy efficiency and hopefully to extend the life of the tar. I am sure the tar will fill holes and stop leaks. Sounds like a good idea, or do you think the white stuff on top is still a waste of time/money?


I don't know how well ANYTHING actually sticks to tar, it's a petroleum based waste product basically, it tends to soften and even melt a bit. Seems to me painting anything over it is like painting a greasy wall.



> Well, at least they fixed that old building up. Or, perhaps, just made it liveable. Wow... that elevator... I would have never thought of that. Wonder how anyone else got their stuff out. Do you think you totaled it, or was it still serviceable? Just when I thought I was border-line hoarder... man, you sure had alot of stuff!


After the deadbeat muslim tenant next to my place who always made excuses why he couldnt give me the rent check for the landlord early on when there was one and got on my bad side with all he did- rang my bell and when I opened the door to the elevator he had a samurai sword in his hand and a stray dog by the collar I had been feeding, and threatened to cut the dog's head off and hang it on my door if he saw him in the hallway again.
I suspect he had to haul all his furniture and stuff down 5 flights of stairs, served him right 

Yes, I had a lot there for sure! It took 5, 24' U-Haul trucks to move out.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, they saved me from having to clean that asbestos up! And about not disturbing it... well... I have a horror story that just got worse. In my dad's house, where the attic was full of vermiculite, the fact that he put down batts is barely the tip of the iceburg when it comes to not disturbing it. Well, he had a leak in the roof. A bad one, before the roof was replaced. I came home to visit him one rainy friday, and a several foot section of plaster had fallen from a hole in the roof where water entered and pooled on the plaster. That vermiculite was EVERYWHERE in the spare bedroom. I was shocked how much had fallen down. Not knowing the hazards of asbestos, we cleaned up the broken plaster, and got out the shop-vac and swept up all of the vermiculite. Boy, bet that left an imprint in my lungs... that was about two years ago.

I know, I know, I hate dropped ceilings too. I really hate them, but you saw those pictures. Plaster was trashed, and the ceilings must have been at least 12 foot! I don't think there is another reasonable way to go with a rental. I would never install them where I lived, but a cheap, clean, easy to create rentable space is a must if I ever hope to save enough to repair/restore the rest of the main portion of the building. That one storefront (Liberty Tax) MIGHT bring in enough to cover a 15 year mortgage plus taxes (hopefully). Can you imagine the heating bill? (Good thing the boiler is shot, LOL). I am afraid to find out what it would cost to insure this place in its current condition. Those lights look dingy anyway, I might just leave them in-place above a dropped ceiling and bring down electrical wires to install ceiling fans at the new room height, to give a more homey feel.

In that first pictue that I posted last time (posted again bellow), I might also just take out that wall in the middle. That back portion has the wall of windows, but the back of the apartment has nearly no natural light (some light allowed through enclosed atruim area). If this wall were taken out, a more open-concept floor plan would be allowed to better distribute natural light. That front area by the windows would serve as a living/dining area, and it would fade back into an open kitchen area with bedrooms/bathrooms in the back. Same applies to the third floor. I think each floor in this back section could accomodate a two bed one bath apartment on it. The wall to the right in the photo, I believe, holds the currently blocked-off stairwell to the main road for the main upstairs access in this wing, which I would re-open. It appears from street level that fiberglass panels were nailed over the doorway, for whatever reason.

About the roof, I would probably end up patching it, then taring it, leaving off the white patch. I think it would hold out several years after that. Now, the Lowe building... that is just a nightmare. I am hoping its roof is solid, and that the leakage that came clean down to the storefront area is just from flashing that has been pulled away from the brick years ago. That would be a nice, easy fix; as opposed to replacing the entire roof. But, then again, that trash bucket full of water WAS in the middle of the floor. Even if it is flaulty flashing, the rafters are likely all along the front of the building, and they are likely all rotted from water seeping in.

Wow... that's pretty harsh with the dog. I would have reported him, personally, after he did that to me... that would have really set me off. Guy sounds like a potential terrorist! It would serve him right, unless he stayed there because he didn't have to pay rent to anyone! Was everyones power still off as well? If so, I see why you wanted to move out. I've never been to New York, but I'm sure it's a pretty rough place.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> That vermiculite was EVERYWHERE in the spare bedroom. I was shocked how much had fallen down. Not knowing the hazards of asbestos, we cleaned up the broken plaster, and got out the shop-vac and swept up all of the vermiculite.


Oh boy, see, that's another thing- roof leaks causing the ceiling to decay and then that vermiculite is in the room everywhere.
Using a shop vac is not good either, from what you describe, there is almost certainly asbestos still there in the rooms, it is an insidious material because it has microscopic particles that float in the air with the slightest disturbance.
It's a tough one to know how much exposure will do how much damage, some people may be much more sensitive than others, but in theory just one particle in the lungs could cause cancer and there's no known safe exposure level, in short we just don't have all the answers.
Obviously the less exposure there is, and the less concentration of it the better, but in the home with a ceiling collapse like that and the stuff getting everywhere, it would cause a high exposure initially and during cleanup, but then continued exposure long term with varying lower levels of it in carpets, bedding, drapes, furniture, on the walls and surfaces etc.

There's not really anything you can do at this point other than stay out of that house. Probably everyone has had exposures of some kind at some point in life since it's so everywhere, just be aware you have been exposed to it and be alert in the future to the first signs of any health issues that could trace back to it.

Here's a scandal if there ever was one, the background story:


W.R. Grace & Co. is associated with the one of the largest asbestos contaminations in American history. The company purchased vermiculite asbestos mines and a processing mill in Libby, Montana in 1963 and operated them until 1990. Vermiculite is a naturally-occurring mineral which is mined from raw ore deposits in a method very similar to asbestos mining.

Employing up to 200 people, Grace & Co.* produced up to 200,000 tons of vermiculite a year. Its Zonolite Mountain mine was shut down in 1990 after large quantities of airborne asbestos fibers were discovered. *From that discovery began a steady stream of asbestos-related lawsuits against W.R. Grace.

More than 400 of Libby's residents died from exposure to the asbestos in the Grace mines,* and at least half of the town's population of 3,000 is currently ill. *Grace has faced more than 250,000 asbestos-related lawsuits, and *it declared bankruptcy in 2001.*

Criminal proceedings against W.R. Grace & Co. began in 2001, and the case is now considered one of the largest asbestos-related environmental cleanup lawsuits in the country. The U.S. government* charged the company and seven of its top executives with concealing information about ongoing health problems caused by exposure to their asbestos-contaminated vermiculite mine in Libby.*

*Records obtained from the company revealed that as far back as the 1970s executives had been aware that the asbestos found in the vermiculite mine was not only sickening employees, but also the residents of the nearby community.* Grace was additionally charged with obstructing Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cleanup efforts at the site.

As a result of the 2009 trial, W.R. Grace & Co. was ordered to pay the U.S. government more than $54 million to cover cleanup costs related to the vermiculite mine that Grace operated near Libby. Now a designated Superfund site, *the mine disturbed a vast area of asbestos that contaminated individual residences, schools and businesses in the town of Libby, as well as the water and soil in the area*. More than $5 million of the fine was earmarked for medical testing and mortality analyses of Libby residents who had perished after mining operations began.

In June 2009 the EPA declared a Public Health Emergency in the towns of Libby and Troy, Montana. Incidence of asbestosis among the residents of these small communities was "staggeringly higher than the national average for the period from 1979-1998," according to the EPA.

*W.R. Grace & Company knew all along that abestos from its Libby, Montana, mine was sickening workers and their families -- but said nothing. *Only now, a decade after the mine closed, are the town's residents learning the painful truth.
Under ordinary circumstances, Gayla Benefield should be looking forward to a peaceful retirement among neighbors and family. But Libby is no ordinary town.

For the past 40 years, Benefield has watched an epidemic of lung disease spread quietly through the valley. It killed both of her parents: First her father, a former miner, then her mother died of asbestosis, a cruel thickening of the lungs caused by exposure to asbestos. "It took my mother 17 months to slowly suffocate," Benefield recalls. "The oxygen she was getting was the equivalent to what you would give a newborn, because that was the size of the lung capacity she had when she died."

Other miners and their families were getting asbestosis too, along with malignant lung tumors and mesothelioma, a rare cancer of the pleural lining. They suspected a connection between their illnesses and the dust in the mine, but they could never be sure.* Every day after work, the men would come home covered with a fine white powder. Their wives inhaled it as they scrubbed clothing and curtains and floors. Their children breathed it in as they played on the carpet. The miners were told it was just "nuisance dust," nothing to worry about -- even though W.R. Grace knew well that the dust they were breathing was loaded with microscopic asbestos fibers that could kill them and their families. *
Two years ago, a Libby jury --* after hearing a Grace executive testify that he knew there was asbestos up in the mine, and that it could kill the mine workers and their families* -- awarded the sisters $250,000 in wrongful-death damages.

Vermiculite is a shiny mineral, similar to mica, that pops like corn when heated. The puffy product, as light as cork, was once a popular form of building insulation and is still an ingredient in potting soil. Vermiculite itself is harmless: The problem is that the layers of igneous rock where it is found almost always contain asbestos, exposure to which has been definitively linked to several fatal lung diseases for more than 70 years. *The vermiculite deposit outside Libby is particularly dangerous because it is laced with tremolite, the most toxic form of asbestos. Tremolite's long fibers are barbed like fishhooks. They work their way into soft lung tissue, and they never come out.*

Until the mid-1970s, the vermiculite mined in Libby was processed in the "dry mill," a place so dusty that workers often couldn't see their hands on their brooms. The mill workers suffered the worst exposure, but the rest of the miners and the townspeople got their share of dust as well. What wasn't swept out of the dry mill and dumped down the mountainside was spewed out a ventilation stack and into the air.* By W.R. Grace's own estimates, some 5,000 pounds or more of asbestos was released each day. On still days, some of it settled back on the mine site. When the wind blew from the east, a film of white dust covered the town.*

it was heated and popped for commercial use under the brand name Zonolite. 

Not all the vermiculite left Libby. *Grace had its own expansion plant and a bagging operation called an "export plant" in town, right next to the baseball diamonds. The area was ringed with spilled or discarded batches of Zonolite. Kids played in the piles, and people brought home bags of the stuff to pour into their attics or use in their gardens. *


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> Can you imagine the heating bill? (Good thing the boiler is shot, LOL). I am afraid to find out what it would cost to insure this place in its current condition.


 High ceilings are not the problem, since the heated floor above acts as insulation, it's the lack of insulation in the walls, leaky single pane windows and no attic insulation, it's also a lack of ceiling fans to push the warmer air back to the floor area. Dropped ceilings won't make any difference on heating costs- the suspended ceilings have no insulation value and the heat just goes up into the space above where at best it warms the floor above from the underside.
I pay $55 a month for insurance for my building- liability, fire, contents etc and it's basically replacement value on it, but then the building is in good condition.




> Wow... that's pretty harsh with the dog. I would have reported him, personally, after he did that to me... that would have really set me off. Guy sounds like a potential terrorist! It would serve him right, unless he stayed there because he didn't have to pay rent to anyone! Was everyones power still off as well? If so, I see why you wanted to move out. I've never been to New York, but I'm sure it's a pretty rough place.


Yes, the power was still off untill the $35,000 bill that was due was paid by someone. Yes it is a tough city, and while that part of Brooklyn near Grand Army Plaza was better than most, during the after-work hours when the huge commercial bakery one street over closed and the workers went home, I was the only white guy around in an all black neighborhood and I had at least 3 very scary confrontations with people there on the streets, one of which was an attempted mugging but my dog who didn't like strangers lunged at the 2 guys and they took off. There was also a gang of kids there too.
It was a pretty tense place, and everyone's lofts in the building complex had been broken into and robbed except mine, and it was because I had 4 large dogs, and my stairway door was covered with a sheet of 3/4" plywood and the door locks had wide 1/4" thick steel plates bolted over them leaving only a hole large enough for the key.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

"High ceilings are not the problem, since the heated floor above acts as insulation"
What would you suggest to do with the twelve foot (or so) ceilings in that bad of shape? You saw the water damage picture. I assumed that ceilings that high would turn away potential renters, and they would assume a lower ceiling with new tiles would be more enegry efficient. I hate drop ceilings, but it would make easy access for installing ductwork and electric, and makes accessing plumbing in case of a leak easier. What does it typically cost to run new wooden framing for a ceiling? I have heard bad things about metal (aluminum) studs, but would they be OK for use solely in the ceiling if they are cheaper to hang drywall? How do you feel on them? I'd imagine that hanging drywall on a ceiling would be much more difficult that installing a drop ceiling. Which would be more cost efficient? Only windows to worry about in this area would be the "window wall" up front. The issue with the rest of the area is likely just uninsulted masonry walls. Doubt the ceilings have any insulation either. I don't know if this place is even insurable. Lots of agents in town, but none likey want to take on the liability. Possibly one of the reasons it's been on the market for so many years.

"Yes it is a tough city, and while that part of Brooklyn near Grand Army Plaza was better than most, during the after-work hours when the huge commercial bakery one street over closed and the workers went home, I was the only white guy around in an all black neighborhood and I had at least 3 very scary confrontations with people there on the streets, one of which was an attempted mugging but my dog who didn't like strangers lunged at the 2 guys and they took off. There was also a gang of kids there too."
Man, I'd never want to live in that area! I can't blame you for moving. I'd be terrified to live in that area. Sounds like you had yourself pretty well secured there. Did anyone ever try to break into your loft? Honestly, when we moved to East Liverpool, I didn't like it a whole lot. I never imagined staying here long-term, but the place has grown on me. It's kind of a sad area, but there are lots of places worse-off. Not to mention the history this town has! There used to be hundreds of potteries here until the 1960's. China has simply taken over everything.

"W.R. Grace & Co. is associated with the one of the largest asbestos contaminations in American history."
I had heard of the asbestos mine in Libby, MT, but I had never read into it. Didn't imagine it was ever that bad! That's one story. I don't care if they filed for bankruptcy, they ought to have still been held accountable for their actions. They likely ended lots of lives, put many in misery, and completely got away with it. Shows how corrupt our justice system is. Their executives that let the mining go on all those years after obvious dangers ought to all be jailed for life. On another note, I heard that asbestos was more of a long-term exposeure damager, so I think our little vermiculite accident will be alright. I couldn't find info on who started using asbestos in building construction, but I did find who I believe to be the inventor of leaded paint. Ironically, he was also the inventor of leaded gasoline, CFC's, and freon. Man, this guy did alot of damage!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> What would you suggest to do with the twelve foot (or so) ceilings in that bad of shape? You saw the water damage picture. I assumed that ceilings that high would turn away potential renters, and they would assume a lower ceiling with new tiles would be more enegry efficient.


The hate of classic high ceilings and putting in "modern" looking suspended ceilings and those semi clear "crackle" panels under the fluorescent lamps hidden above was a phenomenon that was part of the 70s and 80s. It was the same with oak furniture, back then you could't give oak furniture away, no one wanted it, then suddenly EVERYONE wanted those big heavy oak tables and chairs with the carved lion claw feet and they became hot collector's items as antiques selling for thousands.

More people WANT the high classic ceilings, those businesses who don't are more likely looking to rent in a NEW building as they want that contemporary modern sleek office tower look and LED lighting etc. They don't want to be in an 1880s building with wood floors and an antique facade out front (doesn't fit the modern business image well)


> What does it typically cost to run new wooden framing for a ceiling?
> I'd imagine that hanging drywall on a ceiling would be much more difficult that installing a drop ceiling. Which would be more cost efficient


 Installing drywall on the ceiling is certainly not a one man deal, it's a big pain in the behind, and then you have to tape and mud all those joints, oh gawd no thanks!
What's wrong with a classic tin ceiling? it certainly would fit the style of the building and era. It's still made today in a choice of aluminum or tin plated steel in 2 foot square sheets. I tore out the ceiling in what was the dining room in my house and made it a cathedral ceiling and installed tin throughout, it was real easy, one man job just putting up 1/2" CDX and air nailing the tin on.
The tin plated steel is currently $7.75 a section, that is equiv to $62 for a 4'x8' area, at that price it's competitive with a lot of other ceiling materials. Drywall would require at least one helper, the tin you don't need a helper and you just air nail it up and it's done, no taping, sanding, drywall dust.

The tin was so nice I never painted it, it still has it's original mirror polish appearance.
The front parlor I used aluminum as it was the first room I did and they had a sale on the aluminum, this ceiling I painted and detailed with various colors.

http://www.mbossinc.com/

Part of the ceiling in my cathedral ceiling former dining room, I didn't have the top section covered yet in the view from 2008.










I can't advise you on what to do with the ceiling or what the cost is for everything, but I know what I did, and what I would do.

Doubt the ceilings have any insulation either. I don't know if this place is even insurable. Lots of agents in town, but none likey want to take on the liability. Possibly one of the reasons it's been on the market for so many years.

I know the ceilings don't, the ceiling is nothing but the underside of the floor above, so the heat is not wasted. It IS wasted and lost thru an uninsulated attic or cockloft.
The guy who owns the building currently must have insurance, whatever insurance he has today is the one to go to. I'm with State Farm, all I asked about was liability for if someone slipped on the ice on the sidewalk or something, they would not provide JUST liability insurance, they required the building be insured as part of the policy.



> Man, I'd never want to live in that area! I can't blame you for moving. I'd be terrified to live in that area. Sounds like you had yourself pretty well secured there. Did anyone ever try to break into your loft?


Someone tried, I saw evidence of someone working at the back stairwell door with a crowbar, but they gave up. They broke into the other lofts in the building by punching holes through the walls, and the dance studio below me they reached one of their windows from the roof of a lower buiding next door and a ladder. But I had 4 dogs who made a lot of noise when anyone came to the door, so I have no doubt they made a lot of noise during the attempt.



> I had heard of the asbestos mine in Libby, MT, but I had never read into it. Didn't imagine it was ever that bad! That's one story. I don't care if they filed for bankruptcy, they ought to have still been held accountable for their actions.
> 
> Their executives that let the mining go on all those years after obvious dangers ought to all be jailed for life. On another note, I heard that asbestos was more of a long-term exposeure damager, so I think our little vermiculite accident will be alright. I couldn't find info on who started using asbestos in building construction, but I did find who I believe to be the inventor of leaded paint. Ironically, he was also the inventor of leaded gasoline, CFC's, and freon. Man, this guy did alot of damage!


Medical science doesn't have all the answers, and a lot depends on the individual, which is why some people can smoke 3 packs of cigs a day for 50 years and die in their 90s and someone else who never smoked a day in their life develops lung cancer in their 20s, but one thing is clear- ANY exposure, even once is a significant risk. By once or minimal we are talking about say, a guy replacing the brake shoes on his old truck in the driveway and being exposed to the brake dust that has asbestos.
Having a ceiling fall down in a residence whose attic is full of vermiculite is not a one time exposure, it becomes a long term multiple exposures incident because first there's the cleaning up what is on the floors, then there is the use of a vacuum cleaner which further puts it into the air, and then there is the dust that lands on the furniture, walls, light fixtures, carpeting and all other surfaces. Over time with weekly house cleaning what is wiped off the table tops and so forth goes away, but every time that vacuum is used it's putting more into the air that was in the filter, and more if it wasn't totally empted and washed out completely, and new filters put in.
What wound up in the carpeting gets somewhat vacuumed out, but it's still there and getting crunched into the carpet further by walking over it.
This is the risk with this vermiculite when something like a ceiling falls down, the stuff LOOKS harmless and most people have no idea it's contaminated by asbestos because WR Grace and the others have kept things quiet, time has marched on and people forget.
Over the coming years and decades many more people will be inadvertantly exposed to it in older homes if they re-roof the house and it includes replacing the deck sheeting or disturbing the attic to run vent pipes, new skylights, HVAC or wiring. Some, like your dad's house will develop water leaks in the roof and not know it for a while because the vermiculite might absorb small leaks enough it doesn't drip in the room below.
But, as happened with your dad's house- the ceiling can cave in unexpectedly.
Many older houses and buildings with this in the attic at some point will be demolished or have a fire, and for the most part people involved will have no clue what the pebbly like fluffy stuff in the attic is, or means.
I found out only by noticing a couple of empty bags in the building's attic one day when I went to look at the space, and I decided to Google the Vermiculite brand name and find out what the R value was, believe me, Googling that brings forth tens of thousands of asbestos related web sites in connection to it.
That was when I decided to seal the attic up completely.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Personally, I prefer high ceilings in older homes... I was thinking what I thought would attract renters. If I lived in a portion of it, my area would certainly have original-height ceilings. Bellow is a picture of the main front turret room on the third floor. I'd love to have this area as my living room. However, the ceiling is totaled. Assuming the floor/ceiling joists above are still solid (would a wood hardener-link bellow-solve the problem if they are only semi-weakened?), I would tear off the rotted plaster and lathe. Dont know if the area above should be insulated, considering that there is a small attic area/living space (See top of second picture) above that specific room. I imagined nailing up plasterboard, because I though that tin ceiling prices would be through the roof (no pun intended). I never knew that they were so cheap! I would certainly have to consider putting up plywood and a tin ceiling, considering that the rooms in this old building (like so many other) are small. There isn't much more than what you see in the picture. I would have to consider the same in the rental area I posted about last night. I read up on dropped ceilings, and I was shocked to see how expensive they are. Fairly simple to install, but I assumed they would be much cheaper. 

The two smaller unoccupied storefronts on the long side of the main building toward the back are somewhat modern. You can see that the windows have been replaced in recent years (third picture). However, the former tattoo parlor in the very last one is all brick walls, and likely original tin ceilings as well from the pictures. Might be hard on the gas bill, but I really like how it looks on the inside. When I said 'ceilings', I was referring to the the ceilings of the top floor/attic area; I know there is none between the lower levels... sorry for the confusing wording. I would have to ask him who his insurance provider is. If it seems costly, there are several companies just a small walk away downtown where I could get qoutes. There is one right in the building next to this one, as well. For all I know, he could use them. Or, he could have inherited the building or bought it with cash, and simply never aquired insurance because he didn't have to. Just like how he didn't have to patch the roof.

We did a good cleaning of the room, and the plaster was repaired, but that carpet is still in there. I think we hit it with the carpet scrubber, but that might still be an issue. However, that back bedroom is rarely used. Since his attic is now insulated, I might just suggest to nail plywood down to all the floors so the area is sealed off better. There are several things in storage up there. I think the base coat of the plaster had that vermiculite or a similar, styrofoam-type material in it. I recall it when I was looking at the damaged plaster at the time. I thought it was strange that they would put styrofoam material in the base coat of plaster. Did they put asbestos in plaster in the 50's as well?


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

What would you suggest as flooring for the main area in these units; cheap carpet, cheap laminate, or a mix? I don't think that tile or hardwoods would be worth the purchase price (or install time) to be ruined in a rental.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I was thinking what I thought would attract renters.


Ask some real estate rental agents around the area what trends they are seeing for business rental environments.




> Bellow is a picture of the main front turret room on the third floor. I'd love to have this area as my living room. However, the ceiling is totaled. Assuming the floor/ceiling joists above are still solid (would a wood hardener-link bellow-solve the problem if they are only semi-weakened?),


That's real bad, and the fact it's so extensive means it's been going on a while. You know, I really have to point you in the right direction on some of the stuff you are asking about, you really need to stop looking at those homeowner gotcha ADS and promotions, these products are sold to naive homeowners, the elderly who have no idea, and people who don't know any better!
Seriously, a wood hardener??? give us a break! I don't care what glowing testimonials from 85 year old homeowners who have no clue, or how many lifetimes worth of "guarantees" these things have, you can't patch and glue, tape, seal, paint or slather the latest miracle glop over ROTTEN structural lumber or roofs full of holes! Any kind of glop sold over the counter in a can for $29.95 or $49.95 or whatever is NOT going to fix your way out of replacement and proper repair of a roof or load bearing structural members of a floor, and I'm sure others here will agree with me on this.

STOP reading those ads!




> I would tear off the rotted plaster and lathe. Dont know if the area above should be insulated, considering that there is a small attic area/living space


By all means take off the damaged plaster and lathe, and re-sheet it with CDX, 5/8" is good, 1/2" might be okay- screwed into the joists above not nailed. Then you can air nail tin or pressed aluminum ceiling.
The insulation goes in the attic.


> (See top of second picture) above that specific room. I imagined nailing up plasterboard, because I though that tin ceiling prices would be through the roof (no pun intended). I never knew that they were so cheap! I would certainly have to consider putting up plywood and a tin ceiling,


They usually screw plasterboard not nail it.
You don't even really have to put plywood up- just strips per their instructions to nail the perimeters and seams of the tin to, but I prefer plywood because it's SO much easier and you have no issues with missing a badly put up narrow strip of wood due to mismeasurements or whatever.It also adds a little sound resistive material and ties all the joists in together nicely.




> I read up on dropped ceilings, and I was shocked to see how expensive they are. Fairly simple to install, but I assumed they would be much cheaper.


The typical suspended ceiligns I'm famaliar with use sheet metal T shaped strips that are hung from the old ceiling with wires, and the cheap textured pressed carboard stuff lays on the flanges of the strips. Where there's lights they lay in a section of semi clear crackle plastic, and crackle is exactly what that garbage does real quick from the heat and UV light from the bulbs- you go to flex it a little to take it out to replace a bulb and 9 times out of 10 the stuff just cracks apart handling it.
Dust, cobwebs and dirt accumulates in there like nothing else- falls in from the floor above too.
They are not exactly easy to install- you have to get it all level and even everywhere or it looks like mountains and valleys.
My building had one of these ceilings, it must have been down 3-4 feet below the original ceiling, and every few feet they nailed up those suspension wires.




> I would have to ask him who his insurance provider is. If it seems costly, there are several companies just a small walk away downtown where I could get qoutes. There is one right in the building next to this one, as well. For all I know, he could use them. Or, he could have inherited the building or bought it with cash, and simply never aquired insurance because he didn't have to. Just like how he didn't have to patch the roof.


I can all but guarantee he has some insurance, if someone so much as slips on ice on the sidewalk and injures themselves, the person they will SUE is the building owner whose sidewalk they fell on, they can go to court and win by citing the fact the snow was either not removed, or it was removed improperly and incompletely, thereby creating a hazard.
The side walks are public access but it is the property owner who has to remove the snow and who is responsible for injuries.
these 2 buildings have sidewalks on BOTH streets.
A story in the paper here on a different topic detailed the guy who was unemployed suddenly and then shortly afterwards he slipped and fell and BROKE his ankle. His bill for the emergency room was $50,000 and he had no insurance, so you know WHO he will go after for that $50,000, right?




> We did a good cleaning of the room, and the plaster was repaired, but that carpet is still in there. I think we hit it with the carpet scrubber, but that might still be an issue. However, that back bedroom is rarely used. Since his attic is now insulated, I might just suggest to nail plywood down to all the floors so the area is sealed off better. There are several things in storage up there. I think the base coat of the plaster had that vermiculite or a similar, styrofoam-type material in it. I recall it when I was looking at the damaged plaster at the time. I thought it was strange that they would put styrofoam material in the base coat of plaster. Did they put asbestos in plaster in the 50's as well?


Yes, they put asbestos in cement, plaster, wallboard and many products back then, anything they thought a little extra insulation or fireproofing would help they put it in.
They often mixed horsehair in plaster for reinforcement and to lighten it, horsehair was sold by the bale long ago.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

First off, I never read about the wood hardener in a advertisement, I saw it on a home improvement website listed in a section for rotted window sill repair. Never trying it, or even hearing of it, I was just curious if it would work for such an application... I guess I've got my answer now. I am skeptical about every advertisement now-a-days considering the quality of new things; that's why I come here and ask questions. I am obviously not too experienced; but learning.

Sorry again for confusion; I meant to say screwed, not nailed for the drywall. I agree with the plywood, I'd imagine it would make the ceiling thicker, thus more secure. Not to mention making installing a tin ceiling easier as you stated and possibly adding a little bit of R-value. How do you feel about aluminum studs for framing? I've heard that they are cheaper, but I am not too sure about how durable they are. I also know about the horsehair, I have read into old plaster and lathe extensively with intentions of repairing all of the damaged areas to original specifications on our old house before we moved.

How does liability insurance work on property? I know that it only pays for the other car if you get in an accident, but I've never heard of it on a building. I have also wondered who cleans the snow from the sidewalks infront of these buildings. The owner is a dead-beat, and there is alot of sidewalk area. Don't know quite how it would work out with the large fountain area infront of the building. Is that the property owners responsibility, or the cities? Are you only entitled to clean the main strip of sidewalk infront of the building? I'd imagine Liberty Tax likely cleans their own sidewalk area, but who knows about the rest. I ought to take a trip down there after the next good snowfall and see. If I slip on the sidewalk, I can sue him and use the money to purchase the building! :laughing:


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> that's why I come here and ask questions. I am obviously not too experienced; but learning.


That's good, continue to do so.



> How do you feel about aluminum studs for framing? I've heard that they are cheaper, but I am not too sure about how durable they are.


I don't care for them, I prefer real wood.With the price of metal these days I doub't they are cheaper than studs made of wood, you can get studs at Menards etc for $1.99 or thereabouts, ALL metals have gone thru the roof in prices, copper especially, its at the point where brass, bronze, copper, alumimum, iron etc are being stolen from cemetaries, construction sites, churches and more.
I read of a guy caught stealing train batteries and selling them for scrap.




> How does liability insurance work on property? I know that it only pays for the other car if you get in an accident, but I've never heard of it on a building.


The same as any other insurance, on a building usually it's part of the whole package since State Farm would not provide JUST liability coverage, they have to insure the building at least, and it seems to include some amount for the contents. I have essentially a replacement value policy on the building since the amount that is their minimum is considerably more than I paid for the building, it also includes $25,000 for contents, and extends to the same related contents in my home.
It's like your homeowner insurance, you select a deductable, the higher the deductable is the lower the monthly cost. They quoted several rates for various deductables up to $5,000 as requested, I found the best coverage at the best price came with a $3,000 deductable. A $5,000 deductable policy was only something like $6 a month less.
They also came out to see/inspect the building and take pictures, I suspect it was more of a salesman visit than anything since the agent was trying hard to sell me on other coverages too.



> I have also wondered who cleans the snow from the sidewalks infront of these buildings.


YOU do, here, which I'm sure is about the same most places- the city has some snow removal equipment, and usually they will run the plow over the sidewalks in the center of town around the square since they plow it all into a huge pile and haul it away to the river to get rid of it.
My building as a result gets the benefit of that, but even so, the skid loader they use leaves a lot of snow near the wall, by posts etc.
The city ordinance is the property owners have 24 hours after the stopping of snow/storm to clear their public access sidewalks, they can cite/fine you for failing to do so.
Your town might have something similar that removes the HEAVY snow, but if there's only an inch of snow mine doesn't break out the skid loader for the sidewalks.



> The owner is a dead-beat, and there is alot of sidewalk area. Don't know quite how it would work out with the large fountain area infront of the building. Is that the property owners responsibility, or the cities? Are you only entitled to clean the main strip of sidewalk infront of the building? I'd imagine Liberty Tax likely cleans their own sidewalk area, but who knows about the rest.


The sidewalks are usually a right of way kind of thing, where the building owner owns the land to the curb or thereabouts, but the city owns the sidewalk space as a public right of way, the property owner may or may not have to physically maintain the actual sidewalk itself (depends on the city and state I suppose) but the property owner is the one who has to clear debris, keep obstructions off, remove snow and ice. When there's stores on the ground floor, the merchants might clear the space in front of their own store, or they might expect it be done FOR them as part of the rental.
Each store merchant would have their own insurance for losses and liability, though that doesn't let the building owner off the hook,nor would you likely ever find a policy that covers the building but excludes the store spaces.

*Mowing.* Requires the mowing of property within the City. Properties not mowed in accordance with the ordinance shall be mowed by the City or their agents, and billed to the property owner as established in the ordinance.

*Tree Trimming.* Requires property owners to keep tree branches trimmed at least 15’ above the street and 8’ above the sidewalks.



*Property cleanup.* Please keep your property free of junk, junk vehicles. The City has junk, nuisance, and dangerous building ordinances to aid in maintaining a clean community.

*Snow on Sidewalks.* If a property owner does not remove snow, ice or accumulations within a reasonable time, the city may do so and assess the costs against the property owner.
*Snow Ordinance.* When snow is of sufficient depth for plowing, the ordinance shall be placed in effect. The parking ban shall continue for approximately 24-hours after the snow has stopped falling and blowing to allow for plowing of the streets. It is recommended that when snow is forecast overnight, or conditions indicate potential snow, vehicles be moved to off-street, private parking. Violation of this ordinance may result in the issuance of a parking ticket.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I have had trouble finding local codes so far, but I shall continue searching. I can't find much of any information on building permits, either. Is there anything general that is or isn't code everywhere that would relate? For example, I know you don't need a permit to paint windows. Therefore, I'd assume you wouldn't need one to set up a rolling scaffolding to paint windows or re-glaze. I would also assume that the same would apply to minor woodwork repair/replacement before painting was done. And I am sure that you would need a permit to install a new roof, but would you need one to patch an existing roof? How about tarring a roof? I don't know where to look for these questions to be answered. From what I understand, framing studs can be put up, basic electrical/plumbing systems can be installed, and then an inspector needs called in to issue an occupancy permit. Likely before drywall is hung. I'm sure a permit needs to be taken out before anything is altered.

When I mentioned that I didn't know who had to clean the sidewalks, I know that it is the owner's responsibility. That would be no problem for me, especially if I lived here. I know I can handle it. I was referring to the fact that the owner doesn't seem to be involved at ALL. I just find it hard to believe that he shovels it every time it snows. I also find it hard to believe that he would pay someone to do it. Who shovels infront of abandoned or bank-owned properties? Plenty of them around here, that's for certain. East Liverpool has a poor snow removal system, and there are always complaints in the local newspaper about it. Not to mention that only 2 of 4 total plows operate without stalling/overheating during the first half hour. 2 plows just doensn't service a city the size of ours very well.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with mowing! Nothing to mow. Now, I believe the Diamond area with the fountain is all taken care of by the city, but I would likely offer to keep it maintenced as well. Simply, I would miss gardening living in the city... and there are lots of large flower pots filled with hostas for low maintence. I would offer to plant nice, bright-flowering annuals and perenials in this space as well. I'm sure they wouldn't refuse that offer to make the area look nicer. Don't know if the trees along the sidewalk by the long side of the building are maintained by the city or the property owner, but I could easily handle those as well with a pole-pruner. Gardening and landscaping is my other hobby. I don't know if you've ever seen the actual Diamond area infront of the building, so I attached a picture below, taken from the front of the Liberty Tax storefront facing out. Rainy day here, but it is a nice area in the summer, especially when the fountain is going.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I have had trouble finding local codes so far, but I shall continue searching. I can't find much of any information on building permits, either. Is there anything general that is or isn't code everywhere that would relate?


Try --------> the city offices,

http://www.eastliverpool.com/

William Cowan, Director of City Planning/City Engineer
[email protected]
*Phone:* 330-385-5394
http://www.eastliverpool.com/planning.php


The county recorder
http://www.columbianacountyrecorder.org/recorder/services.php
If you have any questions feel free to contact your County Recorder (330) 424-9517.

County treasurer/ real estate taxes;

http://www.columbianacounty.org/treasurer.htm
Real Estate tax bills are generally due the first Friday in March and the last Friday in August. The bills are mailed out twice a year, usually in January and July. 



> For example, I know you don't need a permit to paint windows. Therefore, I'd assume you wouldn't need one to set up a rolling scaffolding to paint windows or re-glaze. I would also assume that the same would apply to minor woodwork repair/replacement before painting was done. And I am sure that you would need a permit to install a new roof, but would you need one to patch an existing roof? How about tarring a roof? I don't know where to look for these questions to be answered.


Usually you don't need permits for cosmetic/maintenance work- painting, patching, caulking, minor repairs. If you get a scaffold the city might require something, or red fluorescent traffic cones be placed so no one not expecting the sidewalk to be blocked- walks into it late at night. They might require it because the scaffold would be shutt access off to the public sidewalk




> From what I understand, framing studs can be put up, basic electrical/plumbing systems can be installed, and then an inspector needs called in to issue an occupancy permit. Likely before drywall is hung. I'm sure a permit needs to be taken out before anything is altered.


They will typically want a permit for any STRUCTURAL work and additions, you start cutting out wall studs, building a new interior wall, taking a floor off the top of the Lowe building etc they'll want you in their office before starting, with written plans in hand showing what is going to be added or replaced, where, how.
The inspector will want to look before you close up any walls with electrical wiring, plumbing in them etc.




> I was referring to the fact that the owner doesn't seem to be involved at ALL. I just find it hard to believe that he shovels it every time it snows. I also find it hard to believe that he would pay someone to do it.


You don't know for sure, for all you know he pays some kid $10 to do it for him, I work with a guy who does exactly that- he pays a kid to mow his lawn and shovel his snow.




> Who shovels infront of abandoned or bank-owned properties?


The smart person who doesn't want to pay a $50 fine or to pay for the billed cost for the city's hired people to do it every time it snows. If the property is truly abandoned, it goes undone or the city does it.



> Don't know if the trees along the sidewalk by the long side of the building are maintained by the city or the property owner, but I could easily handle those as well with a pole-pruner.


Chances are they are city property, and it may in fact be illegal for you to trim, cut or otherwise alter the trees without approval. Chances are the city crews maintain them or they hire an arborist.


The building 522 Sixth & Market sold in 1993 for $18,500
 *Mkt Land Value *  $8,600  
 *Mkt Improvement Value *  $38,400
 *Total Value *  $47,000 

*Annual Taxes *  $1,071.06   *Taxes Paid *  $250.00

 *Land Use *  429 Other Retail  *Taxpayer Name and Address *  DIAMOND REAL ESTATE   520 MARKET ST   E LIVERPOOL, OH
http://www.columbianacntyauditor.org


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I won't call those offices just yet; however, I did save the info on my computer. I will wait until I have decided that I want to purchase it. I shouldn't be getting my hopes up so much. Those most recent photos were from 2011. Two years later, it could be alot worse from leaks for all I know. That trash bucket in the Lowe building may have never been emptied, it may have been left to overflow. The exterior is looking more dingy than in the photos. However, it ALWAYS looks worse in real life than it does in the photos. I have learned that from viewing several local homes on the computer, and then walking to them to visit in real life. Or, It could be nearly identical to how it looked then. Only time will tell.

I guess it would require a permit for tear-down of old plaster and what-not before hand as well. There is no real way to hide that. I'm sure that, with a permit and permission, a dumpster can be rented and parked partially on a sidewalk/parking space bellow upper windows. He might just do that, have a kid shovel it. Or, Liberty Tax may have a very low rent, and they shovel the walks as part of an agreement. Who knows? And I certainly wouldn't trim any trees or do any landscaping before getting permission to do so. I would likely just not bother with the trees, and just ask for permission to maintain the garden area/planters. I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with it. It would pretty the area up to have some bright, colorful blooming flowers growing.

You know, I saw that listing on the auditor's website at one point. I wondered why there wasn't a listing for the Thompson Building (524 Market Street). Perhaps they pay the taxes on all the buildings together. I know they run the Paul Arrow mens pants shop at 520 Market Street. Likely ran it to the ground... it's been open for decades, and they've been "going out of business" for several years now. They are only open for a few hours on saturdays now. "They" would be referring the the two brothers that own the property together, or whatever. Paul and Ian Braslawsce. Found their names on a blog site from the local area. I searched "Braslawsce" on the auditors website to find it. It's listed under Paul's name I believe. They both own alot of property in the area. Perhaps they had a plan to be slumlords and make some easy cash, but maybe it didn't work out. I wondered how they covered the taxes on all that property. Wonder if the sale of the Lowe building (522 Market Street) included the Thompson building as well.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Those most recent photos were from 2011. Two years later, it could be alot worse from leaks for all I know.


I guess I thought those photos were more recent that that, 2 more years of raining inside since then, it could be a LOT worse now than those pics show.




> You know, I saw that listing on the auditor's website at one point. I wondered why there wasn't a listing for the Thompson Building (524 Market Street).


There is a listing for a 524 but it's owned by a different name.

The only entry shown owned by Diamond is:

DIAMOND REAL ESTATE 3709152000 522 MARKET ST 
DIAMOND REAL ESTATE 3709153000 522 SIXTH & MARKET 

http://www.columbianacntyauditor.or...09152000&sid=511A278D12AB47CA9A5F519AD04B49A1





> Wonder if the sale of the Lowe building (522 Market Street) included the Thompson building as well.


It doesnt indicate and the property record for the 2nd entry above leads back to the first and only the first has a detailed "property card" at that url above. The record only has a sketch and it's obviously of the Lowe bldg.

Who knows, maybe they already started some kind of foreclosure for failing to pay the taxes or something and the record is not available right now.
OR it uses a different official address than 524, either way it doesn't show up and Diamond is shown as *only* owning the Lowe building- the only building in the whole county they own it appears.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I am kind of afraid to see how deteriorated it is at this point. I still have a feeling that the Thompson building is solid, but I can't say much for the Lowe building. It has a wonderful commercial space in the lower level (after some repairs to the showcase window area, shouldn't be too hard). Obviously there is no saving anything on the top floor. Those broken windows concern me on the upper floor of the Lowe building, don't know if pigeons have made their way in. If so, hope they haven't found their way to the Thompson building. Don't know how a problem like that could be handled. "Rifle practice" in the city is not the best idea. If I were to purchase it, I might seal the roof with some sheet metal, something to keep it from leaking more into the commercial space temporarily. The commercial space could be repaired, and rented for income. The upper levels would just remain sealed-off for the time being.

The link you gave me only takes me to the home page. If the below link works, it is to the search of "Braslawsce" that shows the brothers own several properties in the area. Most of which are on the second page. I know they at least own the men's pants shop at 520 Market Street. I looked up the two parcel ID's you gave me in your last post. You are saying that 522 Sixth and Market is the corner building? The long side of it faces Sixth street, while the front and the Lowe building face Market street to clarify. I hope they have been paying the taxes! If not, I hope they have quit recently. In that case, I can buy it for back taxes and save some money, maybe. http://www.columbianacntyauditor.or...owner&l_wc=|owner=BRASLAWSCE&owner=BRASLAWSCE


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I am kind of afraid to see how deteriorated it is at this point. I still have a feeling that the Thompson building is solid, but I can't say much for the Lowe building. It has a wonderful commercial space in the lower level (after some repairs to the showcase window area, shouldn't be too hard). Obviously there is no saving anything on the top floor. Those broken windows concern me on the upper floor of the Lowe building, don't know if pigeons have made their way in. If so, hope they haven't found their way to the Thompson building. Don't know how a problem like that could be handled. "Rifle practice" in the city is not the best idea. If I were to purchase it, I might seal the roof with some sheet metal, something to keep it from leaking more into the commercial space temporarily. The commercial space could be repaired, and rented for income. The upper levels would just remain sealed-off for the time being.
> 
> The link you gave me only takes me to the home page. If the below link works, it is to the search of "Braslawsce" that shows the brothers own several properties in the area. Most of which are on the second page. I know they at least own the men's pants shop at 520 Market Street. I looked up the two parcel ID's you gave me in your last post. You are saying that 522 Sixth and Market is the corner building? The long side of it faces Sixth street, while the front and the Lowe building face Market street to clarify. I hope they have been paying the taxes! If not, I hope they have quit recently. In that case, I can buy it for back taxes and save some money, maybe.
> http://www.columbianacntyauditor.or...owner&l_wc=|owner=BRASLAWSCE&owner=BRASLAWSCE


I think I did find the pages when I searched the parcel ID's. It appears that the listing for 522 E. Sixth & Market street is a little different that that of just 522 Market Street. Check them again, the sketches look a little different to me. I think some of the values are different too. Looks like they show it with two store fronts on the land page. Perhaps one is includes the Liberty Tax area and the small middle storefront combined as it used to be, and the other is for the storefront on the far left, in the back of the building. Assuming the below numbers are right (and in acres), that converts a total of 2570 sq. feet in just the Thompson building storefront areas alone! Assuming they are not counting the basement or small fourth floor attic areas, the Thompson building is approx. 7710 sq. feet. The listing on the realty site said the property was 11,211 sq. feet, so it must have been both buildings combined. Doing up all the math, the Lowe building is about 3500 sq. feet, divided by four... If I am correct, each floor of the Lowe building is 875 sq. feet, including the storefront area. That is, assuming each floor of the Lowe building is equal. Well, the Lowe building is 1089 sq. feet according to the auditors website. Either my math is off, or the floors aren't equal. Or, the upper fourth floor is too recent of an add on to be counted? I'm not sure. 3500 divided by 3 is 1166 sq. feet per floor. Hope I haven't lost you here.








*Parcel ID **Address **Index Order **Card(s) *3709153000 522 SIXTH & MARKET Parcel ID 1 *Land Type **Acres **Sq. Ft. **Frontage **Depth **Value *


F9 Front Lot 0.011 0 20 23 $2,110 

F9 Front Lot 0.048 0 28 74 $6,470


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Here's another idea. While the building is being gutted, the upper floor of the Lowe building, which I am sure is entirely trashed, can be gutted to the bare brick. Based on the photo where the third floor had the rainbarrel in it, I am willing to bet most of the studs/rafters in the third floor ceiling are entirely rotted as well. The offending rafters can be replaced, and one could then lay down 3/4 inch plywood or so, install flashing into the original red brick that is showing, and build an entire roof at the floor level of the fourth floor as it originally was. The entire new roof above the third level can remain closed in untill funds/time are there to remove all of the newer yellow bricks of the fourth floor. 

Now you would have a roof; all you would have to do afterward would be to seal off exposed bricks up top. I think it would look neat to match the original red bricks to repair some damaged ones, and then build a decorative area onto the top front of the building (almost similar to what it originally had), incorporating the "LOWE" cement block that was added to the fourth floor. The exterior-facing walls inside of the Lowe Building can be gutted (likely need new studs from water damage), insulated, and drywalled. The second floor ceiling above the rainbarrel likely needs new studs and flooring as well, based on the "unstable" floor comment from the historical society website.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Here's another idea. While the building is being gutted, the upper floor of the Lowe building, which I am sure is entirely trashed, can be gutted to the bare brick.
> 
> install flashing into the original red brick that is showing, and build an entire roof at the floor level of the fourth floor as it originally was. The entire new roof above the third level can remain closed in untill funds/time are there to remove all of the newer yellow bricks of the fourth floor.
> 
> Now you would have a roof; all you would have to do afterward would be to seal off exposed bricks up top. I think it would look neat to match the original red bricks to repair some damaged ones, and then build a decorative area onto the top front of the building (almost similar to what it originally had), incorporating the "LOWE" cement block that was added to the fourth floor.


I am sure you'd have to get approval from the buildings dept to do that, as what you describe would leave basically a freestanding facade of brick on the top floor, with the new roof being on IT'S current floor level.
Seems to me leaving the facade freestanding that way is leaving it very unstable, a wind storm could potentially push it right out onto the sidewalk and street.
The original facade wall cornice in the old photo was either wood or stamped sheet metal, wood was common for those up to about the 1870s, then they found a way to press sheet metal by machine and sodler it together in sections for those cornices.
The stamped metal cornices would be all but impossible to replicate today, a wood replica certainly can be made, and both wood as well as pressed tin decorative brackets and other ornaments in a variety of sizes and designs are available at reasonable cost.
That original design could be closely re-created without a whole lot of trouble.

The LOWE plaque is very likely carved limestone not cement, I would be extremely surprised if it was cement, they typically used limestone (or similar stone,) terracotta, pressed tin or cast iron for these elements, including those lintels over the windows.

In NYC, they used wood like this example, ca 1870










And pressed sheet metal after ca 1870 like this example










The better ones used copper


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I assumed the Brick Facade was the ONLY thing that was stable, and that would be installed first for structure and then wooden framed walls were installed on the inside. I didn't think it would make a difference. Regardless, I would contact the planning department first. Then, first thing In the spring, I could work on removing the bricks until I am down to the original red brick. I have a feeling that it would take awhile, that's why I though it would be best to install a roof first. 

I could only imagine the price tag on having a wood cornice recreated. That must be in the thousands... that would be a project for later on down the road. I would like to somehow include that block with the words "LOWE" if I can make it fit on top of the building. Maybe it is limestone, I don't know. I just assumed it was concrete. Is that what they call the stones over the windows? Lintels? I wonder if the newer lintels over the fourth floor that match the other floors would be worth anything. Perhaps there is a similar design that is damaged somewhere and an owner is looking for new stones to match them. Funny they matched the lintels but couldn't match the brick color... or come even somewhat close to matching it.

Those wall cornices that you posted looked very nice, however they must be very expensive to replace. That wooden one desperately needed a good sanding and priming/painting. I wouldn't want to put a whole lot of money into the Lowe Building, the second and third floors couldn't hold much more than a two or three bedroom apartment each, and that is likely all I would use it for. I could deal with something much smaller and less fancy, just to top off the building. From your point of view, considering that you are an artist, what is a rough estimate for a simple wooden cornice to be created for a bulding like this? The corner Thompson building was built in 1892, and I would imagine that the Lowe buidling was built right around the same era. That old picture I added to my last post was from right around the turn of the century. I know it was taken before the great 1905 Diamond fire, but I am not sure how long before.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I assumed the Brick Facade was the ONLY thing that was stable,
> 
> I could work on removing the bricks until I am down to the original red brick. I have a feeling that it would take awhile, that's why I though it would be best to install a roof first.


Brick walls that are freestanding, especially with four huge window openings in them like this top floor mostly have their weight to keep them in place, once you remove the old roof attached at the top of it you create a loss of strength at the top center over the window openings, as the back would be open to the elements, with a new roof at the floor level, there is a risk that during a wind storm that if the wind hots that from the back, it could push it right out, especially if that wall has any defects or out of plumbness.
I've watched demolition crews pull a wall down exactly like that with nothing more than a rope, here's a photo from 1977 showing just two guys pulled the whole wall in, same as the Lowe building's four windows across. This wall was solid brick, 12" deep, the Lowe building and in other cities it may be more common to use 8" of hollow clay blocks faced with one course of solid brick, in wich case it might be weaker, and certainly lighter in weight:













> I could only imagine the price tag on having a wood cornice recreated. That must be in the thousands... that would be a project for later on down the road.


It's something you could do with a table saw for the structure and purchased corbels and decorative parts, it would not be terribly expensive.




> I would like to somehow include that block with the words "LOWE" if I can make it fit on top of the building. Maybe it is limestone, I don't know. I just assumed it was concrete. Is that what they call the stones over the windows? Lintels? I wonder if the newer lintels over the fourth floor that match the other floors would be worth anything. Perhaps there is a similar design that is damaged somewhere and an owner is looking for new stones to match them. Funny they matched the lintels but couldn't match the brick color... or come even somewhat close to matching it.


Lintels is correct, it spans across the top of the window opening as a structural support for the brick above an opening. Personally I prefer the arch top windows.
There could be a very good reason why the lintels were matched and the bricks not, I can think of several- the lintels were locally available, the bricks were not, or the brickyard that had similar had a huge minimum order and these yellow bricks happened to be more readily available closer.
Maybe since they apparantly painted the facade long ago, they didn't care what color was under the paint. 



> Those wall cornices that you posted looked very nice, however they must be very expensive to replace. That wooden one desperately needed a good sanding and priming/painting.


The copper one is on a designated landmark, it WOULD have to be replaced with in-kind materials if damaged. The wood one dates to the 1870s, it's typically just softwood, some species of knotty pine, but it proves that as long as the wood is under cover as that is, and kept painted, even pine will last outdoors like this for over 140 years and counting.




> I could deal with something much smaller and less fancy, just to top off the building. From your point of view, considering that you are an artist, what is a rough estimate for a simple wooden cornice to be created for a bulding like this?


Well, you are looking at maybe 25 feet across, I used on my building 1x8 or so pressure treated boards 16' long and cut them, you might be looking at a few hundred for the actual boards.
For decorative brackets, WF Norman makes them in zinc and copper, something like this would work, they have larger and smaller and different designs:










Their price list from last year shows the one on the left in zinc is $151.73, in copper it's $303.45 and assembly- soldering it together for you is $65.45.

You'd want maybe four of those, so if cutting boards and basic carpentry is something you can do, $1500-$2000 would do it for the materials.

http://wfnorman.com/about

They also carry tin ceilings, metal roofing and caps, and more.

Download or call to order our 85pg ornamental K Catalog featuring a comprehensive line of exterior sheet metal ornaments originally produced by the Miller & Doing Co. founded in Brooklyn, NY in 1892. Over 1300 catalog items are available in zinc, copper, or brass including: Balusters, Brackets, Capitals, Conductor Heads, Crestings, Crockets, Drops, Eagles, Finials, Gargoyles, Garlands, Leaves, Lion Heads, Mitres, Moldings, Panel Ornaments, Pinnacles, Roosters, Rosettes, Scrolls, Shells, Shields, Urns & Wreaths.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

When I said I would build a roof at the interior fourth floor level, I would intend upon leaving the original, rotted fourth floor roof intact until I was ready to remove the bricks, and board up the mostly broken out windows of the fourth floor for the mean time. Come to think of it, when I re-visited the webpage of the 1968 Diamond fire, I did notice that the red, likely painted over bricks exactly matched the yellow bricks on top of the Lowe building. Both the Lowe and Thompson Buildings matched exactly. Interesting that they painted them instead of just trying to match the bricks closer. The Lowe building has been very poorly repointed, and the Thompson building, for the most part, appears to have never been repointed. I'm sure it will need it a little while down the road. The mortar is worn back, and adding some fresh mortar would liven up the exterior of the building. Is it called repointing, or tuck pointing, when you just add new mortar over top of worn-down older mortar?

That website is very interesting, I didn't know anybody still made historical brackets like that brand new. I found the informative website below, but it still seems complicated. Does the website depict how you built yours? I still can't quite grasp the concept of building a cornice like these. It might help me if you could post a picture of the cornice that you built on top of your building. From the old picture I posted a few days ago, it looks like the original building had five pairs of 2 brackets going across the top. At the prices the website qoutes, I think that only 5 would be sufficient. It looks like that company sells metal frieze panels for inbetween the brackets as well. Did you purchase your tin ceiling panels through this company as well?

http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Building-Construction-V3/14-Cornice-Erection-On-Wood-Supports.html


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> The mortar is worn back, and adding some fresh mortar would liven up the exterior of the building. Is it called repointing, or tuck pointing, when you just add new mortar over top of worn-down older mortar?
> 
> That website is very interesting, I didn't know anybody still made historical brackets like that brand new. I found the informative website below, but it still seems complicated. Does the website depict how you built yours? I still can't quite grasp the concept of building a cornice like these. It might help me if you could post a picture of the cornice that you built on top of your building. From the old picture I posted a few days ago, it looks like the original building had five pairs of 2 brackets going across the top. At the prices the website qoutes, I think that only 5 would be sufficient. It looks like that company sells metal frieze panels for inbetween the brackets as well. Did you purchase your tin ceiling panels through this company as well?



The illustration is typical of how they were installed, with the brick parapet wall extending above the roof line, and a cantilever system with sloped anchorage attahced to the roof deck.. Unlike this illustration tho:











All of those I have seen the sheet metal is not against brick, but is open to the cavity shown, it might be just the illustration does not show this, but accessing that cavity you can see the back of the sheet metal, in this illustration there would be wood structure at the ends and where the center bracket is there would be a verticle stud.

The back of my building's parapet is not very tall;











I removed the redwood siding that was installed around 1973, it was cantlevered over the top by hanging 2x4s from the 2x6s, it was not naield into the bricks;























Removing that siding left a projecting overhang to which the mambrane roof is not only attached to but overlaps the front edge an inch or so and was attached there with a strip of aluminum.
I decided to box it in like a small cornice as the best way to deal with it and not disturb the roof at all;











The red circle shows the 2x4 I attached flat to the capstone with tapcon anchors, next I took 8" long deck screws and screwed them up thru the 2x4 into the projecting horizontal 2x6s to anchor them to the 2x4 to anchor that down against wind uplift.
There already was a 2x4 attached across the upper ends of the 2x6s where the top flashing aluminum strip was screwed into, so screwing another 2x4 along the face below that into the ends of the 2x6s made a flat base about 1-1/2" thick and 8" deep to screw the treated 1x10 ripped on a table saw to 8" to those.
Then I screwed a 1x8 treated board to the underside, screwed to that anchored 2x4 on the capstone's face, and screwed to the underside of the lower 2x4 on the face.
I left a 1/2" over hang from the bottom of the face board to the underside board.
All screw heads were caulked over, all joints caulked, it was primed and painted.





















I didn't have the depth of overhang I wish I had, 6" more would have been great, but would have required a lot.
I had to get the scaffold back, but I have plans to install probbaly 4 of those sheet metal brackets under this.
My tin ceiling came from Mboss


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

If you would like, you could post some interior pictures of the work you have done on the inside of your building, I'd like to see it. I understood alot from the shots of your building. At first, I was very confused. After reading it over about a half dozen times (and then again when I woke up this morning), I'm pretty sure I understand it. What I don't understand is when you said that there is normally a cavity beneath the sheet metal (frieze) between the brick and the metal. Were you referring to the cavity behind the brick wall in the picture, or did you mean that there should be a wood overhang that the metal is attached/nailed to? 

Would it be acceptable to nail small (1/2 or 1 in) wooden furring strips to the brick, then perhaps plywood over them, to attach the brackets and frieze/metal to? There would then be a small cavity between the brick and the metal, and I'd imagine it would be more secure having it nailed to the bricks than to just attach an overhang or attach it directly to the brick. It could be capped off at the bottom up against the brick with a metal "crown molding" type piece as shown at the bottom of the illustration I posted again below. To keep from damaging original brick, and to allow more room for brackets, some of the yellow bricks of the fourth floor could be saved in place to nail the furring strips to, and cover it with sheet metal. After it was all said and done, only the original red brick would be showing below the the end of all the sheet metal. The first picture below shows where the yellow brick could be torn down to. Everything below the windows down to the start of the red brick would be covered up by the sheet metal cornice.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> What I don't understand is when you said that there is normally a cavity beneath the sheet metal (frieze) between the brick and the metal. Were you referring to the cavity behind the brick wall in the picture, or did you mean that there should be a wood overhang that the metal is attached/nailed to?


That illustration does not clearly show it, but normally in all the building's Ive dealt with in New York City anyhow, those sheet metal or wood cornices are quite large, simply because almost all of them are on 5 and 6 story or higher buildings, so the SCALE of the elements has to be increased up there. Once the brick facade is up to roof level and there's a short parapet wall above the roof line to keep people from falling off, they typically did not extend the brickwork all the way up in front in the area which would be behind the sheet metal cornice, they didn't usually attach the cornice to the bricks the way the illustration implies.
The brickwork would normally only be about the height of the rest of it around the perimeter, about 2 feet above the roof, capped with stone or more commonly a fired dark brown colored, glazed terracotta cap made in sections. The cap sheds the water off the top of the wall, here's such a wall but the style of the caps is Tudor, not the normal stock design 99% of the buildings used:










Below is the front of a building in 1977 which fairly well shows the scale and elaborate design of a sheet metal cornice, circa 1895. You can see where the keystones were removed and can see sky thru the hole in one spot. The brick wall didnt go any or much higher than what you see, the sheet metal bottom of the cornice actually rested on the top of the brick, there may have been a board nailed into the top of the brick wall for the sheet metal to nail to.
It doesnt HURT to have more brick in there, if you tore the floor down, you can leave the wall 2 or 3 feet above the roofline, they just didn't normally go that high and fill all that in when these buildings were built because bricks and labor cost money, the fewer unnecessary bricks that are mortared in the more profit the builder made, but since that's not a consideration in your case tearing down, you can leave as many bricks intact as will fit inside the cornice you make.
I would say not more than 3 feet above the roof line since that's likely to be as deep as any cornice would be for this size building anyway. You could actually stop tearing down right at the window sill level it looks like, the window sills would then be a sort of capstone, but they might have to be removed anyway since they project out a bit they may not be very stable with the wall above removed.

























Reverse view of the back, you can see a little bit of daylight thru that same hole, and if you look close you might see the bricks a little- stop just below the actual bottom of the sheet metal, maybe 3 feet above the actual roof deck. The hole in the brick where the keystone was removed can be seen and compared to the front view.
The sloping angled back area on this was quite a bit taller and longer than shown in your illustration, it was about 8 feet high from the roof deck to the top of the cornice, mainly because the cornice was so elaborate and had an extra center section in the design.

The parapet wall on the sides you can see was bulked up in height on the right for a few feet back from the front, the same was done on the left which in this view was chopped away- that's the "ballast" so to speak that helps anchor and secure the whole assembly as well as tie in more with the facade bricks.

Climbing inside that cavity you could touch the back of the sheet metal on it's upper half, they used flat, bent and shaped wrought iron straps and brackets, and wood for a superstructure inside to attach the sheet metal to and support it.
Think of the actual roof of the cornice as being like a floor, but with fewer joists- spaced maybe 24" apart and maybe only 2x4 or 2x6 lumber.
Those in turn were attached to various verticle and angled boards to anchor them and give the back area that angled slope that attaches to the actual roof deck.
The cornice would usually just hang off those on the top like my redwood siding did on my building in the pictures, and the bottom of the cornice would be anchored to the top of the brick wall along the facade, and anchored at the ends well too, the ends of the cavity space were filled with the brick wall to close that space up.


They used wrought iron flats a lot in place of of some of the 2x4s in there, they bent and shaped flats about 1/4 to 5/16" thick, maybe 1-1/4" wide so they could embed one end of those into the wall, or nail an end of them to a support joist, and they bent and shaped those, and added additional pieces on using hot rivets, and the face of the sheet metal cornice's BACK would rest against those iron brackets and attach to them.
They used this more on the very large cornices where they wanted to allow for movement and wind, the iron "gives" a little like a spring and the large cornice is acting like a sail in the wind, so rather than trying to make all the sheet metal totally rigid, it allowed a little give to flex and move.

That copper cornice in another photo is so massive you can stand up inside, I did that back in the early 80s when I went inside. I made a sketch in fact;










The iron brackets can be seen, but these were substantially larger than the 1/4" thick stuff, the drawing also eliminates most of the brackets for clarity, in the drawing they appear to be about 5 feet apart, but in reality they were closer to about 18" apart.
This view would be standing inside the cornice, you can see a row of oval dark holes extending from the lower left corner, those are actually terracotta blocks- the top of a terracotta molding under the cornice, the holes are handholes in the blocks.
In this case they DID extend the brick wall up to the roof of the cornice due to the fact it was required to anchor the iron brackets too, and due to the sheer size, overhang being about 6 feet, weight and wind loading. In this case the brick wall was needed for anchorage and "ballast" to counteract the extreme overhang.
Not easy to see due to an optical illusion, but in the right lower corner is a little scroll design, that is actually the INSIDE of a bracket, the scroll is the inside of the scroll design on the bracket. further away from that a square is one of those raised panels like you see in your illustration.
The roof has a wood grain in the sketch as they laid boards over the iron brackets, the copper cornice did not extend much over the top but was attached to those boards.





> Would it be acceptable to nail small (1/2 or 1 in) wooden furring strips to the brick, then perhaps plywood over them, to attach the brackets and frieze/metal to?


I am not a fan of NAILING things to a brick wall, nails tend to come loose, pounding them in tends to loosen the mortar, you can get away with it on a NEW wall, but you don't want to disturb the bricks on an old building like this by pounding on it, the mortar in these old buildings is usually little stronger than sugar cubes, you can actually pull bricks right out of the wall with a screw driver and once you pull one out the rest are much easier to get out.
I prefer tapcon anchors, you drill the hole and screw the anchor in with a drill.
When I add the zinc brackets to my building, that is a good method, but for those I will need 2 treated boards for the zinc to nail to along the sides and top edges, so it will take a board say an inch thick or so, the width and length of the INSIDE of the bracket in it's back, and another board for the inside top. The one board would be tapconned to the brick wall in to the mortar joints, 4 screws would do it, and the other board gets screwed to the underside of the cornice with regular deck screws, and then the bracket slips on over the board in the back and over the board on top, and gets small nails driven thru the sheet metal into the side edges, front and bottom edges of the boards, and it's secure. A little caulk is good even though it's protected under the cornice overhang- it will help keep insects like bees from building nests inside etc.

The maker of the sheet metal designs would have instructions for mounting their products, they might even have different or alternate mounting provisions built-in that differ from the old methods.



> To keep from damaging original brick, and to allow more room for brackets, some of the yellow bricks of the fourth floor could be saved in place to nail


You make sure to measure properly so the tapcons don't go INTO bricks, but into the mortar between them. Those bricks are likely to be extremely hard, the facade bricks typically always are much higher quality, much harder bricks than used anywhere else in the building. You don't want to be drilling holes in those bricks, trust me on that 

Another sloped back, back of the cornice rooftop view looking towards the front of a building, circa 1975, this height was more typical, maybe 3 feet above the roof line;


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I do like the capstone on that first picture. Now tell me, is that a brick roof, or am I just blind? Almost looks like bricks on the roof, but that just doesn't seem right. That building where the keystone was missing was a real shame. Looked trashed and forgotten... I hope they were restoring it. That sketch you drew, was that the inside of the cornice of that building you posted a few days ago with the copper cornice? I think you said it was a historical landmark. Was that a rubber membrane roof on the last photo? Man, you have some interesting pictures in your archives. Bet you have alot more, I'd love to be able to look through those! Did you work as a construction worker, or repair old buildings in NYC?

Below, I attached two pictures of the Lowe Building. You can see where I circled showing the original brick line in comparison to that stone on the corner of the Thompson building, and then again on the old turn-of-the-century photograph where the original cornice was still attached. Assuming they didn't remove any of the old original red brick when they built on the fourth floor, and only the original capstone was removed, the brick line on this building here stopped right below the cornice as well when it was built.

When I said I'd save some of the yellow bricks to nail into, I didn't mean into the bricks, I meant the mortar inbetween... I just mis-worded that. Would it be OK to just 'tapcon' wooden furring strips into the mortar joints to anchor the sheet metal/brackets to? Honestly though, I've never heard of tapcon anchors. Look at the link below, are these them, or do I have the wrong product?
http://www.concretefasteners.com/anchors-fasteners/tapcon-screw/pricing.aspx?gclid=COy2rZKKu7UCFUid4AodvRYAmw


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I do like the capstone on that first picture. Now tell me, is that a brick roof, or am I just blind? Almost looks like bricks on the roof, but that just doesn't seem right.


Those are clay tiles on the roof, it wasn't done often, but in high rise apartments like that building there is usually a penthouse on the very top floor or the roof itself, and tenants also usually had access to the roof, so a tiled roof was used to create a "floor" for people to walk on rather than tarpaper.
Google Tudor City, NYC














> That building where the keystone was missing was a real shame. Looked trashed and forgotten... I hope they were restoring it.


That building and the entire block was under demolition at the time around 1977, those keystones were removed by me, I was 17 at the time back then.



> That sketch you drew, was that the inside of the cornice of that building you posted a few days ago with the copper cornice? I think you said it was a historical landmark. Was that a rubber membrane roof on the last photo?


Yes that is the one, it is on the NW corner of Broadway and W. Houston st in NYC if you care to google map/street view/google earth it.
The last roof photo was not a rubber roof, just regular tarpaper, and that roof was directly across the street from the building I removed the keystones from.

Another view of that block, that roof was on the building in the center:













> Man, you have some interesting pictures in your archives. Bet you have alot more, I'd love to be able to look through those! Did you work as a construction worker, or repair old buildings in NYC?


Oh yes I have pretty extensive archives, about 200 photos wound up in my book. No, when I was 13, I started collecting artifacts from buildings being torn down, and by the time I was 19 I had 50 tons worth stored in several lofts around the city and working a full time job and 4 part time jobs to pay all the rents.



> Below, I attached two pictures of the Lowe Building. You can see where I circled showing the original brick line in comparison to that stone on the corner of the Thompson building, and then again on the old turn-of-the-century photograph where the original cornice was still attached. Assuming they didn't remove any of the old original red brick when they built on the fourth floor, and only the original capstone was removed, the brick line on this building here stopped right below the cornice as well when it was built.


Actually, if you look closer, you'll notice the actual cornice is not as high as you think, the very top of the brick wall appears they finished with a diamond pattern row across, and the actual cornice starts just about at the top of your red circle. Scale wise it looks to have been no more than 2 feet high, with the diamond pattern below it about a foot high. The diamond pattern section could be called part of the cornice design, it's just that part of the cornice was executed in brick and the rest in sheet metal.
The cornice as a design by the way, is very old and goes back to the classical period with the Greeks and Romans. They used the column as the base design with it's 3 elements: the base, shaft and capital, and almost all of these old buildings built before 1900 have that concept, especially tall ones. You'll see usually an elaborate ground floor design, sometimes obscured by store signs or alterations for stores and new display windows, then the shaft represented by a relatively plain 2nd floor up, capped by an elaborate top floor representing the capital, with the cornice at the top representing the abacus found on the Corinthian capital which does the actual supporting.



> Would it be OK to just 'tapcon' wooden furring strips into the mortar joints to anchor the sheet metal/brackets to? Honestly though, I've never heard of tapcon anchors. Look at the link below, are these them, or do I have the wrong product?


You would use something more substantial than furring strips, but yes, that is the idea- anchoring the lumber, and those are the correct screws on that link. Tapcon brand is the "standard" for these screws. They also sell a handy driver you chuck into a drill that drives the screws in and then automatically disengages from the screws head when it's seated properly.
I would get that because using a socket wrench or flat head screw is a real pain!
The caution in using these is make SURE you drill not only the correct sized hole, but that the holes are deeper than the length of the screw.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

That old photo was a little fuzzy, and initially, I assumed it was all decorative brick. After talking to you, I thought it was all likely a sheet metal cornice. I never paid close enough attention to see the diamond shaped bricks I guess... shame they tore them off. Well, I can't remake those, so I would likely just install a cornice, leaving the yellow brick from the windows down for extra area to mount to. I wish I had more photos from the building. I'd like to know when the large metal dome cap was taken off the Thompson building turret (see the old picture), and I'd like to know when they added the fourth floor onto the Lowe building. Everyone I talked to doesn't seem to remember, so it must have been awhile ago. Is there a place I can go to research this? Maybe the county courthouse?

That tile roof was interesting, I really like the greenhouse on the roof. Do they just double up the supports underneath the roof to allow for all of this weight? Makes me wonder how they waterproof clay tiles. I've read into the colum with the three elements before. Pretty sure it relates right into the golden triangle of architecture. When you told me you had a whole lot of stuff to transfer down the freight elevator, I was wondering all you could have possible owned... I suppose I know now. What did you do with all that stuff when you moved to Iowa? Storage units?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I never paid close enough attention to see the diamond shaped bricks I guess... shame they tore them off. Well, I can't remake those,


They appear to be just different colored bricks set into a repeating pattern, looks like this is what they had there but a single row of white bricks;














> I'd like to know when the large metal dome cap was taken off the Thompson building turret (see the old picture), and I'd like to know when they added the fourth floor onto the Lowe building. Everyone I talked to doesn't seem to remember, so it must have been awhile ago. Is there a place I can go to research this? Maybe the county courthouse?


Chances are the dome was damaged by a wind storm, if so, big longshot- you might find an old newspaper article about a big wind or hail storm that damaged a number of buildings, it it might mention something like "the Thompson building was also damaged".
If not, then the 1970s was a time when a LOT of this stuff was removed or covered over in the misguided quest to make old buildings look more modern and sleek. That was when stupid things like installing ugly, cheap looking redwood siding over a brick facade like my building was done.
Here the local paper turned over all of their archives going back the 1800s to the local museum housed in an old primary school, who put all the material on microfilm.
Your town may have a similar newspaper who has archives or gave them to a third party, but searching for such a small detail involves a lot of work and time, only you can decide if learning the relatively unimportant detail is worth your time, especially since the chance of failure to find anything about that is probably 95%.

Your buildings dept etc are certainly to only have records pertaining to the property ownership and transfers, but they will also have building permits that might have enough details to learn what work was done when, but that is a relatively new thing because back in the old days people just build their buildings and homes, most with little paperwork to them, and many alterations and repairs done over the years in the 20s, 30s 40s etc were just done also with little to no paperwork.
The exceptions would be in the big city like New York City where they recorded almost everything, including alterations, even simple additions of a slop sink in the basement etc.

If you do buy the building, or not, the abstracts are usually public records you can see at the buildings dept.
Mine are quite interesting, and you'll find entries like these:











http://imgur.com/yloSAmE

http://imgur.com/mtyHVcl

The second one is page two from 1855 showing the first entry, whith the US Govt granting the land, and the second entry of Peter Smith shows that Smith (who was the founder of the town) transferred the land to the town.
At that point there was nothing there but bare land or maybe a wood shack type building. It wasn't untill 1910 there was an entry for a $20,000 mortgage and I take that as the evidence of when the building was built on the land.





> That tile roof was interesting, I really like the greenhouse on the roof. Do they just double up the supports underneath the roof to allow for all of this weight? Makes me wonder how they waterproof clay tiles.


I'm not sure how it was done, but that building would have used concrete slab floors since the complex was built in the mid 1920s, the red tile was originally part of the roof deck, though over the decades I'm sure it's been replaced at least once. As long as the mortar is kept in good condition and drainage is good, and any cracks that appear attended to promptly, the system should not leak.
The tiles are vitrified, so they are essentially waterproof, it's the mortar joints and where the tiles meet chimney's pipes and vents, builkheads and the walls that there can be leaks.



> When you told me you had a whole lot of stuff to transfer down the freight elevator, I was wondering all you could have possible owned... I suppose I know now. What did you do with all that stuff when you moved to Iowa? Storage units?


I sold half of it before I moved, and I've moved to two other states since then and sold off pretty much the rest, but started a new second collection 15 years ago.

This was a view of one of my lofts, in fact on the 7th floor of that building with the copper cornice posted earlier;












Musician David Peel even came by on occasion;










And then in Brooklyn a couple of views;


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, I wouldn't want to go through the trouble of removing all the yellow bricks, then adding more onto it. It isn't worth all the work to go and find out about the turret dome cap, but it still makes me wonder. It's a shame that it's missing, it topped off the building. I don't even know how I would go about having one of those remade. It was probably all made of sheet metal, and I bet it would be expensive for a replacement. But, then again, I was wrong on the sheet metal cornice, so who knows. It might have even been made of copper. I'll have to ask around town more.

Those papers were interesting, I'll have to look into finding some on this building. I know the original owner was John C. Thompson, and that is the Thompson family block, but I don't know anything about the man, or the following owners. I heard the last person living on the third floor was a little old lady who passed away in the 1950's. Makes me wonder how buildings are just let go like this one. 

Man, you needed a warehouse for all of that! It looked amazing though, I'd have loved to have been through those lofts. I had vaguely heard of David Peel once... he was a street performer, wasn't he? Did you know him personally? I looked up a few of his songs on youtube... interesting stuff I suppose 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hghUdXKykM


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Did you see my last post on page 5? Just making sure, I noticed this new one was bumped to a new page.

Have you ever heard of Brownsville, PA? What a sad story, the town has become virtually abandoned. The Market Street has only a few businesses left. I explored parts of it with the nicer weather this saturday. I went behind the Second National Bank building, and this is what I found. I suppose this building would be considered to have brick walls that are not in plumb and decent condition as we once discussed. In the bottom of the second picture, you can see a window that has fallen, with the faded brown and orange 1960's-70's window blinds that my Grandmother installed new back when someone actually care about this building. The whole town is virtually abandoned. The cellar door was wide open. It invited me in, and I was greeted by a massive 450,000 BTU boiler and a huge old hot water heater. I plan to come back one day and see if there are any valuables, architectural or not, that are worth saving on the upper levels. On the fourth picture, the painted "ghost" type sign on the side of the building was an advertisement for the hotel type building next door which is now abandoned as well. I found an electric shut off notice in the door jamb of the "Town House" building next door dated for February of this year.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Yes, I did!
Never been to brownsville, the street view map looks like it's a dump.
The brick wall collapsing like that is pretty much the end of that building, it probably developed a bulge from water leaking inside and freezing, or washing out mortar and it gave out. Usually there's signs, but when the wall collapses it just happens in an instant.
In 1973 an 8 story 1867 hotel in NYC developed a bulge in the facade wall that a city inspector reported as a violation, nothing was done about it and a couple of weeks later it collapsed onto the street.
A chase for drains or something had been cut in the wall, and a doorway was cut at some point in the basement.
It was built on the foundation and lower 3 story ruins of a theater building that burned down. My guess is building the much taller building on a foundation and walls that had been damaged by the fire was a real bad idea.
The center section under the tallest tower is what collapsed out onto the street, from an 1870s view, absolutely nothing in this image still exists today;











Doubt you'll find anything in that building, I'm sure anything of any value has already been stripped out.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Yes, I did!
> Never been to brownsville, the street view map looks like it's a dump.
> The brick wall collapsing like that is pretty much the end of that building, it probably developed a bulge from water leaking inside and freezing, or washing out mortar and it gave out. Usually there's signs, but when the wall collapses it just happens in an instant.
> In 1973 an 8 story 1867 hotel in NYC developed a bulge in the facade wall that a city inspector reported as a violation, nothing was done about it and a couple of weeks later it collapsed onto the street.
> ...


It is a dump now-a-days, but it is better off than Detroit. I have heard several people state that Brownsville, PA has more abandoned buildings than anywhere outside of Detroit. It used to be a very promising city, now they are tearing-down several buildings on the same side of Market Street that the Second National Bank building is on. If they continue in that line, they will remove the main Monongahalea Bank building, the Town House building, and then this bank, the Second National Bank building. I'm sure you have heard of Pittsburgh, PA. They used to say that Pittsburgh wouldn't ever amount to anything, because it was too close to Brownsville. Certainly not true anymore. Brownsville still has potential, it has the oldest standing castiron bridge in the nation going down Market Street, which goes over Dunlap Creek. It also has, which was recently restored, the Flat Iron building, which I believe is the oldest of it's kind left as well. I think all that is left is an attorney, and a small drugstore on Market Street. 

I believe this building dated back to the 1860's, when the original First National Bank was formed. If this building were in a larger city, or if Brownsville wasn't virtually a ghost town, I'm sure someone could knock-out surrounding damaged bricks, and buy a large lot of cheap, off-color bricks (perhaps what they did with the Lowe Building), rebuild the brick wall, and seal off the entire back wall with a good coat of paint to match the bricks, considering the bricks in the back aren't too pretty, and no one at street level will see it. The wooden joists inside look solid, and the floor didn't seem all too bad, considering the hole in the wall. I assume water was seeping into the bricks for an extended period of time, and it fell down very recently, perhaps within a year from the current date. Looked like there was a pretty cool looking vault inside as well. I didn't get much beyond the basement, but I plan to. I don't think there is anything really of value in there either, but who knows. I love to explore abandoned buildings, regardless. Below is a good shot of the building and then the Union Central Train Station in Brownsville, also now abandoned. Used to have storefronts on the main level in the 90's, before it was cleared-out.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> I believe this building dated back to the 1860's, when the original First National Bank was formed. If this building were in a larger city, or if Brownsville wasn't virtually a ghost town, I'm sure someone could knock-out surrounding damaged bricks, and buy a large lot of cheap,


I don't see this as dating to that era, this is a newer building, and the facade if it isn't stone blocks is terracotta blocks, I'd say the latter since theres a couple of carvings that look to me like they are definitely terracotta, and that would date this building closer to about 1900.
It is an interesting building, in fact it reminds me a lot of a firehouse of that era, but the doorway is too narrow. I would not be surprised if it's architect had designed firehouses too.

The thing with the wall is, that wall fell down all on it's own, no earthquakes, tornado, or anything of the sort, that means the rest of that wall could be extremely unstable right now and could collapse at any time without warning.
The foundation could have settled there, or water leaks, any number of things, and no matter what the cause this would be a very expensive repair! Knocking more loose bricks out of that hole could cause the whole thing to go.
That is not a load bearing wall, if it was- the floor would have collapsed as the joists would have been supported by that wall, this must be a rear wall or something, because typically the side walls are the load bearing ones as the joists that were cut back then were cut out of single boards about 24 feet long or so, and if your building was that width or less, the joists spanned across the whole width in one shot, if it was wider you had to use two joists across and have a supporting bearing wall or columns in the center which increased costs.
The joist length is one reason you see most all small footprint older buildings in cities like NYC have 4 windows across the facade, and average around 24 feet or so wide.

The eagle plaque is terracotta, I'm 99.9% certain of it just from the photo, that puts the building in the 1880-1910 era for construction












REDEVELOPMENT AUTH CO OF FAYETTE


62 MARKET ST 
Commercial Structure 
Type BANK
*Year Built**1900*
Gross Floor Area 5840

Base Year of Valuation 01/01/2003
Current Land 12,480
Current Building 16,150
Current Total 28,630

This last bit will get you going:

03-JUN-2009 
LAND & BUILDING 
*Sale price $1 *
Deed book and page 3095 - 198


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

A dollar? Really? Just pay closing costs -- and it's yours! Bet that brick wall was still standing in 2009. The "Redevelopment" company got lazy, because this building hasn't been touched in years. I know it is stable enough to walk in, and it appears that the roof drainage was clogged, water seeped into the bricks for years, and BOOM! It crashed down. I have closely inspected it, the side walls seem sound. Just major deterioration in the back. You can see the floor joists running from the sidewalls from the picture. The private upstairs access door on the left side of the front is unlocked, I didn't go up there because cars were going down the street, and I didn't want a police report called in. It was a very tempting offer when the door swung right open though. Right below that eagle plaque, you can see one of the vintage blinds that my grandmother installed new back in the day.

About the date, I didn't think it was that old, but I read an interview with an older gentleman who had passed away in the 90's, possibly a historian too. He stated that the First National Bank's charter from the 1860's (when they first formed) ran out after 20 years, and it couldn't be renewed. So they liquidated and reformed in the 1880's as the Second National Bank. He mentioned that they returned to the original First National Bank building, across from the flatiron building on Market St., which is right where this building is located. Seems like alot of buildings where they weren't sure of the date were listed at 1900. It's possible this building dated from the late 1880's as I had initially assumed before I found that interview, or the "original building" burned down in 1900, was rebuilt, and the older man didn't know about it. He mentioned they merged with the larger Monongahalea Bank before the Great Depression, so who knows what this building was used as from then up until it was left to rot. For all I know, it's slated for demolition. That would be a shame, but such as life I suppose.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Ya know, one could buy the entire Market Street of Brownsville, all the buildings, for next to nothing. That would include the huge abandoned Central Train Station as well. But the issue is, there is nothing that can be done with it. There is a little town local to us in East Liverpool here. I doubt you've heard of it, it's called Midland, PA. It was a total dump, and it was miserable driving through it even just a decade ago or so. Now, since a large school, possibly a cyber school, moved in, it has totally turned around. The whole main drag looks really nice, new streetlights, buildings refurbished, the works. Lots of businesses moved in, and it's a very nice little area now. Have you ever heard of California University, of California, PA? Thats right next to Brownsville, and because of the college, it is much better off than Brownsville.

The shipping industry in Brownsville is dead... if a new industry were to move into Brownsville, it would become really nice again. The place just needs jobs to attract people. If someone bought all the buildings up for pennies (obviously having some money to start with for necessary structural repairs), and a new industry moved in, paired with the amazing history of the town, it would boom again. Not to mention that the fellow that owns all the historical buildings on Market Street, considering the new interest in the area, would make a nice chunk of cash. The population peeked in the 1940's at 8 thousand or so, mind you it was bigger than Pittsburgh at the time. I think it is down to 2 thousand some now. East Liverpool houses more now, even more than Brownsville did at it's peak, with 11,000 current residents, but it is headed on track to being a Brownsville. 

What town do you live in again? How is it doing, at least on a comparison to the towns aforementioned?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Ya know, one could buy the entire Market Street of Brownsville, all the buildings, for next to nothing. That would include the huge abandoned Central Train Station as well. But the issue is, there is nothing that can be done with it
> 
> The shipping industry in Brownsville is dead... if a new industry were to move into Brownsville, it would become really nice again. The place just needs jobs to attract people. If someone bought all the buildings up for pennies


The problem is, these buildings deteriorate so rapidly and extensively once the roof starts leaking and window panes are gone, that it would cost a fortune, more than the buildings are worth just to stop further deterioration and seal them up.
Even that bank building was only assessed around $25,000 and I suspect that was mostly for the LAND.
The thing is, where there is one or two buildings in a neighborhood like this, it's no big deal, but when the entire block, or the neighborhood is essentially abandoned, no business you could put there will ever get walk-in traffic sales, people will not feel safe walking down a street past 12 abandoned buildings with broken windows and cracked sidewalks to shop at a five and dime store.

As far as bringing in a new industry, and saving the town, it aint gonna happen, not in today's economy and it's not going to improve much more than it has the last 4 years for YEARS yet to come, by then these abandoned buildings will probably be gone or so bad they will never be rehabbed and will be on a demolition list.

NYC, the South Bronx had a huge abandonment problem in the 70s and 80s, the movie; "Fort Apache: The Bronx" accurately depicts what the South Bronx looked like. The city was tearing down thousands of buildings per month and not keeping up!

Here's some samples, every single building in these shots was abandoned, all the bare land is where buildings once stood:






























Every big city is having this problem- Detroit, Chicago, you name it. Where the business districts have been decimated you'll find nearby residential neighborhoods look like these shots more or less too, not as many buildings like these but homes instead of brick buildings abandoned.

One of the news magazines, 48 hours I think did a documentary on home foreclosures, they went with a banker, and then some city official to look at some of the homes the bank foreclosed on, every home had been broken into, stripped of everything of value- electrical wiring, plumbing, fixtures, appliances, even aluminum siding all ripped out and hauled off.
The reporter brought up the question of if someone wanted to buy the house they were standing in filming, for a dollar, could they, yes, even for one dollar, but no one wants those houses and no one wants to live in a neighborhood that looks like Beirut after the war!
There were even brand new row homes, with construction scaffolding still in front and porch/steps not installed yet, that were standing there abandoned by the builder who went bankrupt, the glass in the windows was all smashed, the fixtures etc all ripped out
There's millions of these old buildings and homes out there no one wants, falling apart because there's no money, no new start up industries moving in, and people will not live in a place that bad.
Detroit, Vegas, Pittsburgh, Chicago, it's all bad and getting worse, check out the Lee Plaza hotel in Detroit:

This is what part of it looked like in 1999

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/362309606/

Interior shots in 2008, THIS much damage in under 8 years:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/detroitliger/2822760633/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/detroitliger/3045123498/

What the upper part looked like with the windows smashed out, ornaments pulled out of the walls, and the copper roof stripped off:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/decojim/461029792/

The city put the chain link fence around it, but obviously it was too little too late in this 2007 view;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/decojim/461029788/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/decojim/461029782/in/photostream/

http://www.forgottendetroit.com/leeplaza/index.html


There was a small hope a few eyars ago it would be renovated and saved, but the money is not there, a buyer is not there, and this 15 stroy building if it's still there is almost beyond salvage now.




> What town do you live in again? How is it doing, at least on a comparison to the towns aforementioned?


Lake city, a small town of 1700 people, it's doing fine but there is no real industry here other than a major hospital. There's quite a few houses for sale, the thing is there's essentially no jobs here, so the town would never attract families who need work unless they are willing to drive 45 minutes to an hour to the nearest larger town. Several businesses that tried, failed, such as a couple of computer stores, one didn't last two months, the other gave up after a year.
So it's a case of about the only way anyone will move to a small town like this is if they bring their own established small business and it's one people want. There's no real market for another hardware store, grocery store, variety store, hair salon, bank, computer store, veterinarian, etc


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

RWolff said:


> There are modern replacement windows that look appropriate and have dual pane argon low E glass, and not cost too much.
> .


That is one of the worst possible things you can do to an old building. The modern double glazed copies with imitation 'Georgian' style glazing bars are dreadful.
You cannot replicate the 'shimmer' of such materials as traditional Crown glass in small panels, with modern float glass; and the stick-on glazing bars deceive no-one.
In restoration, you repair what's there; you don't make cheap immitations.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> That is one of the worst possible things you can do to an old building. The modern double glazed copies with imitation 'Georgian' style glazing bars are dreadful.
> You cannot replicate the 'shimmer' of such materials as traditional Crown glass in small panels, with modern float glass; and the stick-on glazing bars deceive no-one.



I disagree, and I was not suggesting one buy those CHEAP plastic windows witht he fake between the glass dividers, or the fake stick-on dividers, there are limitations to everything, and one limitation is how much energy costs to heat a building with drafty, half rotted, half working half not old wood windows that saw their best days in the 1890s.

With the cost for heat today it is absolutely foolish and stupid to waste energy and money that can be better spent not enriching the oil companies or polluting the air even more burning coal at power plants- just for minor COSMETICS.
When coal was $2 a TON delivered no one cared if half the heat was lost out the drafty old windows.
Unless you are restoring a HISTORIC, valuable, landmark building, those old wood windows can be replaced with double pane, argon filled, low E replacements that eliminate the air infiltration and leakage, reduce the amount of heating the uv from the sun puts into a room, and it greatly reduces the wasted heat out the single pane glass, which in my house would develop an actual layer of ICE on the INSIDE during the winter!

Since I replaced all the windows in my house with new ones, my electric bill dropped by at least $35 per month since I don't have to run a 1500 watt space heater 16 hours a day any more just to keep warm when sitting at the computer!
I did have to do that with the original windows because the glass cloated with ICE on the inside was 3 feet away from where I'm sitting at my desk.

Since I replaced the windows, I no longer get ice on the inside, I no longer feel cold drafts from leaks or the convection caused by that cold surface.
Those who don't mind throwing hundreds of dollars out the windows literally by retaining outdated, obsolete, rotted, loose, impossible to repair single pane windows be my guest, but I have seen a positive reduction in my energy costs that is verifiable by my utility bills, and it amounts to a savings that will cover the full cost for 2 or 3 of the new windows a year.

I can cool my entire 1,000 sq foot house with one 5200 BTU window air conditioner even in hot humid Iowa summers.

Again: unless your building is on the historic register, a designated landmark having significant architectural history, or George Washington's slaves personallyl made your windows, or you have windows with the rare curved glass, bevelled glass, stained glass etc then there are high quality new energy efficient windows that will replace those old wood ones with something better that will absolutely save money on gas/electric/oil



> Windows in historic wood frame buildings are usually twice as tall as they are wide. Traditional exterior trim includes
> the sill, a four-inch wide casing at the sides (jam) and at the
> top (head), and a wood drip mold to shed water.
> 
> ...



That is why you don't buy stock windows with the fake dividers- they rarely will fit the existing opening, you have to order custom sizes, and trim can be replaced/replicated real easy.







> In restoration, you repair what's there; you don't make cheap immitations.


In normal restoration, not historic landmark restorations- you repair what is worth saving that can't be reproduced- wood carvings, stained glass, pressed tin, terracotta elements, carved stone, bronze fixtures, intricate tile work, marble floors, wood wainscot, and you replace what is unnecessarily wasting huge amounts of energy, is a safety risk, or a fire risk.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

RWolff;
I understand - and agree with - some of the points you make. However, there are a couple of aspects which I believe you may not have considered, or maybe just dismissed too lightly.

1. You rightly say that historic or architecturally significant buildings should be carefully preserved. By these I assume you mean the George Washington's house/Empire State/medieval cathedral category. However, lower down the social and architectural scale there are a great many older buildings from the late 18th- up to the early 20th centuries, which make up a fair proportion of our towns and cities. 

These more humble buildings may not have neo-classical columns or grand porticos but still display solid and careful craftsmanship from earlier and less hurried times. It is these buildings which can often profitably be repaired and maintained in use. Repairing (rather than trashing) old windows is a case in point. For example, a carefully-repaired leaded glass window always looks infinitely better than a modern pane with stick-on lead cames.

A further justification for maintaining old work, be it joinery, masonry, brickwork, tiling, leadwork etc is that it keeps the crafts alive, with younger workers being trained in these traditional techniques.

In short, these humble buildings often form the backcloth to our lives. Who wants to live in a world where there is no everyday historical link with the past - where all older buildings are smartened-up, re-clad, smoothed, straightened-out and generally tarted-up?



2. You put considerable emphasis on energy conservation, which is obviously where most older buildings fail. Even so, I would question the extent to which energy conservation should have priority over maintaining the building fabric. To give an example; I may be wrong, but I think in an earlier post you mentioned lining the interior of solid brick walls with PUR/PIR boards. This can often speed up deterioration of the brickwork by keeping it cooler and therefore damper.
Ultimately, if you are after energy conservation, then long-term we should demolish and re-build all older buildings (other than G.W.'s house, medieval cathedrals etc), but who wants to live in a world where you have to drive x miles to see a bit of history?

Just my thoughts.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> RWolff;
> 
> 
> > It is these buildings which can often profitably be repaired and maintained in use. Repairing (rather than trashing) old windows is a case in point. For example, a carefully-repaired leaded glass window always looks infinitely better than a modern pane with stick-on lead cames.
> ...


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

Take a group of abandoned 19th-century brick town houses. 

At one extreme, you could put in new windows and doors, reconfigure the interiors with new stairs, floors, partitions etc; perhaps stucco the exterior to smarten it up and keep the rain out, line walls with insulation/drywall, and finally give it a nice new roof. Result? A smart, energy-efficient building.

At the other extreme, you could patch it up, repair and repoint the brickwork; repair, re-felt and reslate the roof and perhaps put some loft insulation in. Result; a relatively energy inefficient building, but one which maintains that link with the past.

It's not a case of right or wrong; it's really just a case of balance, and where between these two extremes we sit. You possibly lean more to the former approach, while others among us may sympathise more with the latter. My own preference is to see solid but obsolete buildings sympathetically saved and re-used where possible, though not to thoughtlessly sacrifice them on the altar of energy conservation and efficiency.

re. your point on windows; rot or not will depend on climate, maintenance (or lack of it) and quality of timber. My own house is 1920s and has original timber casement (hinged) windows. The old wood is generally very good, though inevitably rotted in one or two places. Ive just spliced pieces in where necessary, and paint them every 3/4 years. They look good and go with the age of the building. Most of my neighbours have replaced theirs with double-glazed PVC windows and they look dreadful. But again its down to preferences. As a kid I grew up in a house heated by open coal fires, ice on the windows (as your old ones) and getting dressed for school in bed - so I don't care about a bit of a draught, but that's my choice!

By the way and as a matter of interest; that old pine floor in your kitchen - 
do you remember how the boards were fixed to the joists? nails?(oval or round) screws? brads? - it's just that I'm interested in these old details!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> , but I think in an earlier post you mentioned lining the interior of solid brick walls with PUR/PIR boards. This can often speed up deterioration of the brickwork by keeping it cooler and therefore damper.


I have no idea what "PUR/PIR boards" are, I only said that if our colleague here buys the Thompson building he will have to almost beyond doubt tear out interior walls, plaster and lathe and replace them due to the extensive water damage from the long leaking roofs (the attached building had a 50 gallon garbage can full of rainwater sitting on an upper floor where the floor was rotted.
I suggested that if he wound up having to do that, that it would be a good idea to put in roll or batts of insulation, and that the wall cavities would need to be vented so moisture can get out.




tony.g said:


> Take a group of abandoned 19th-century brick town houses.
> 
> At one extreme, you could put in new windows and doors, reconfigure the
> 
> though not to thoughtlessly sacrifice them on the altar of energy conservation and efficiency.


Again: I am talking about replacing rotted, deteriorated, common, run of the mill, inefficient single pane old wood WINDOWS, with new ones that will save energy by having two panes of glass with argon and low E coating, and look just as good. You get what you pay for, if you go to Menards you get cheap looking windows with the fake stick-on grills for $129.95, if you go to Pella and get a custom sized wood or wood covered with aluminum or vinyl window, they have them in styles that will look original and be sized right. It doesn't matter if the window has vinyl or aluminum covering over wood- you PAINT wood windows anyway, if the aluminum or vinyl has integrated color to it, in my case- white, you aren't going to tell whether the painted window is wood or aluminim, but the wood will need constant paint and caulk, the aluminum or vinyl wont.

I'm not advocating nor do I approve of destroying brick facades with stucco overlays, replacing hand laid parquet floors with linoleum or carpets, ripping out carved wood stairwells, or replacing stained glass transoms with plexiglass.
I'm talking about replacing windows that are BEYOND any help with paint, caulk, resins, adding more nails or new panes to, whose structural integrity is gone, where the glass is loose and falling out, the corners rotted, the sill rotted enough a screw driver can push thru it, and it's nailed shut because it's non functional any more.
My kitchen windows were like that- nailed shut years before, with the glass literally falling out.





> re. your point on windows; rot or not will depend on climate, maintenance (or lack of it) and quality of timber. My own house is 1920s and has original timber casement (hinged) windows. The old wood is generally very good, though inevitably rotted in one or two places. Ive just spliced pieces in where necessary, and paint them every 3/4 years. They look good and go with the age of the building.


That's fine for a house, but what if you had to hire a contractor to come set up 3 floors worth of scaffolding on two sides of a building like that Thompson building every 3-4 years to do this? You know they aren't going to come out and do that for anything less than 4 figures!



> Most of my neighbours have replaced theirs with double-glazed PVC windows and they look dreadful.


No doubt because they went with the cheap stuff and had a contractor put it in, you get what you pay for, but I bet their utility bill dropped considerably after they changed those windows out.



> But again its down to preferences. As a kid I grew up in a house heated by open coal fires, ice on the windows (as your old ones) and getting dressed for school in bed - so I don't care about a bit of a draught, but that's my choice!


Oh I sure do, I keep my heat set to 72 degrees all winter.



> By the way and as a matter of interest; that old pine floor in your kitchen
> do you remember how the boards were fixed to the joists? nails?(oval or round) screws? brads? - it's just that I'm interested in these old details!


They were just nailed in, it was a former back porch converted into a kitchen around 1950, and they used plaster and lathe on the walls.
The joists that were used were random pieces of what looked like salvaged boards of every size imaginable, there would be a massive 2x12 next to a 2x6 which was next to a 2x8, they just used whatever was laying around. One end of the joists were toe nailed to a 2x4 which was nailed to the concrete block on the foundation of the house, the other end of the joists rested on 12"x12" x8' long timbers that looked like they were salvaged from the long gone railroad roundhouse nearby that was demolished in the 20s. Those were just laid on flat rocks on the ground and were totally rotted on the bottom and inside.

I wound up removing the entire floor and joists and replacing them, and building a block foundation wall.

With most of the old floor out;










New joists in, the original joists were just toenailed to a 2x4 that was nailed to the concrete block wall, I didn't like that at all, I used steel joist straps and screwed them to the wood beam, and then built a stud wall in the basement under it to support that end of the joists.
The original floor was tilted almost 5" across this 8 foot width, and with it the outside wall and roof it was supporting.












With the white porcellain tile in and freshly grouted:










This was the front of the house in 1999 when I moved in, I had just added one railing section by this point as there were no railings;











And the back, it had two doors with cheap storm doors, and a crazy horizontal aluminum slider window, I got rid of one of the door openings;












The front in 2006.
I added two more support columns and enclosed the porch. I was unable to get the roof line sag out because it was so bad for so long the beam took that shape. Two of the original three posts were rotted at the bottoms and were replaced.
I also added an "eyebrow" with curved brackets over the large window and opened the basement windows to light again- they had all been boarded over and covered with tarpaper which made the basement like a dark damp tomb.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

First off, those buildings are ashame, especially the hotel in Detroit! That last link had some pretty gruesome interior pictures. I know there is likely no hope for this town, I'm just stating what needs to happen. You never know what the future will hold, there are a million possibilities. Now, I'm going to add my opinion in here over all of this. 

First off, I have read studies that state that only 10 percent of energy loss in homes is due to old windows, and that new replacement windows only reduce that to 5 percent loss, so that 50 percent savings on new windows is only 5 percent of overall energy loss. However, this likely wouldn't account for extremely deteroriated wooden windows. I have also heard that old wooden windows that are up-kept, with brand new, tight, storm windows, have a higher R-value than new double pane windows, simply because of the dead air space inbetween the panes, Low-E agron gas or not. However, these articles may be biased toward old windows. I likely would NOT replace the windows in the Thompson building, for several reasons. One, the original architectural elements (in what I believe are the original windows) which simply cannot be replicated at a reasonable cost. Two, plain and simple, the cost. I don't wan't crappy 150 dollar replacement windows, and I certainly don't want to pay a thousand on top of that for replacement windows. Think, on the 45 windows JUST on the FRONT of the Thompson building alone, that would be 54 THOUSAND dollars. How would that money be recouped? It would take awhile. It could be more, these old windows are HUGE. It just doesn't seem reasonable. For a third reason, I think the existing windows look fairly solid. Those old hardwoods last SO much longer than todays youngwood windows. New windows just won't hold up. Storm windows would be costly on a job like this too. Re-glaze and re-paint properly with good paint, and it should last nearly a decade. Personally, I would stick up plastic over interior windows for dead air space, and to stop convection currents. This could be repeated annually. Just hang heavy curtains. 

Now, in your case, with windows that were replaced cheaply in the 70's, I would put up no arguement on modern replacements. Original windows, when repairable (I've seen miracles with epoxy putty, it can make wood harder than when it was new), should try to be conserved. Original weighted windows were made much better than cheap, spring-loaded, wooden sashes with plastic tracks. I would nail new oak hardwoods over that old subfloor of yours, personally. Then again, if there was rot bellow, I guess the best method would be to rip it all out. See how the siding is level with the window casing on your house? There really aren't any shadows that make it pop, there is no depth. Historic architecture has the window casings sticking out from the siding. Around here, with the Marcellus Shale, gas prices are at an all-time low. The gas bills were 120 dollars in the 90's, and 90 dollars when the 1957 furnace was replaced later that decade. Gas bills are around 50 dollars recently. I believe insulation is key in energy savings, and should be worried about over windows, unless windows are rotted to the point that there is no saveable wood left.

Personally, I prefer it a little cold. I would prefer 68 degrees over 72. I wouldn't hire a contractor, I would rent scaffolding and do it myself. It would take time, but I'd save myself a huge chunk of money. I am obviously more on the side of repair over replace, but you bring up some good points. For instance, I am ALWAYS for repairing historical plaster and lathe, but in a building like this it is only feasable for interior walls. The only practical way to do it would be to tear down all exterior walls to the studs and re-do plumbing, electrical, and insulate, then hang drywall. In the first picture, the Lowe building wall, third floor, I would repair. In the second picture, the Thompson building front turret room ceiling, third floor, I would have to replace. I could purchase these buildings, repair the roof, tear-down all rotted material, clean up, and even repair and repaint exterior woodwork and windows in the first summer, all including dumpster rental. That's the easy (and affordable) part. The hard part (read: expensive) is what comes after, like running new plumbing and electrical where applicable, insulating, hanging drywall, flooring, ceilings, ect... and, of course, keep it all up to code and under budget. The price on materials will kill you. After the demolition, the rebuild would come very slowly. Renting more storefronts will help fund it, but there is no demand in this area. You'd be lucky to rent to anyone at all!


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

RWolff said:


>


Nice job and a lovely house.

Leaving aside materials, the only thing I would disagree with is your comment about the porch roof sagging. Personally I don't think it detracts from the house at all. It's part of the history of your house, and something which distinguishes it from the cheap, neat, mass-produced stuff of today.

Besides, it's hardly noticeable unless it's pointed out!

Great job.

By the way; FYI, PUR = rigid polyurethane and PIR = polyisocyanate. These are the yellow insulation boards which are usually faced both sides with aluminium foil. They are extremely good insulators, inch-for-inch being about twice as efficient as ordinary polystyrene board (though more expensive).


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> Nice job and a lovely house.
> 
> Leaving aside materials, the only thing I would disagree with is your comment about the porch roof sagging. Personally I don't think it detracts from the house at all. It's part of the history of your house, and something which distinguishes it from the cheap, neat, mass-produced stuff of today.
> 
> ...


The sag doesn't bother me really, it's there, in fact, I had to replace that porch DECK last summer due to the ends of all the deck boards being rotted under the paint (they had used plain pine 2x6) I installed concrete footings and pier blocks and replaced all of the structural lumber under the deck with treated lumber and beefed it up.
I decided to see if that sag would come out as I had to replace the last original column due to base rot (they were just 4 boards 3/4" thick nailed into a square configuration) I actually had the left half supported by nothing when I tried to see if it would flex down, and even it's own weight didn't bend it down at all, so the horizontal beam is permanently warped that way and it's going to stay like that.

Ok, I get it, no I didn't suggest using the urethane board on the brick building, I used then in my house on the inside. I had added depth to the inside of all exterior walls by screwing 2x2 cleats to the wall surfaces, with long screws going into the studs in the wall. That gave me a 2" additional depth which I filled with Celotex, overlaid that with a sheet of plastic, then 1/2" CDX and then 1/2" sheetrock.
The original plaster/lath was not in good shape and had a dozen layers of wallpaper on it.
I used the plywood because I wanted to be able to hang heavy things (up to 100#) on the walls anywhere I wanted to.
I gave the sheetrock a texture with drywall mud using a trowel and a stiff wallpaper glue brush.
Thanks for the comments.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> I have read studies that state that only 10 percent of energy loss in homes is due to old windows,


The majority of heat is lost thru the uninsulated roof space, which in the Thompson and Lowe buildings is certainly going to have zero insulation, or if there is any it's ruined by the leaks.
The biggest issue with the windows is air infiltration, you'd be surprised at how one TINY little crack on a windy day you can feel the room get cold from the air coming in. You can't caulk you way air tight on loose, warped, water/weather damaged wood frames and still expect thse windows to OPEN and CLOSE when you want them to.
People today have no patience, and people don't want windows they have to "mess with" every time they want it open or shut- tenants especially won't put up with windows they have to prop open, use a screw driver to get to open, or leak cold air in that costs THEM more money for heat if they are paying to heat their own spaces.

You will have to consider that in your case, it won't be as much about what you want as it will be about what your future tenants and renders will demand, and they will almost certainly not put up with having to apply weatherstipping all the time, loose, leaky windows that ice up etc etc.
As to the 5% or 10%, 5% is a considerable amount even if it doesn't seem so, and that's 5% every month, every year, year after year, the number changes dollar wise when the cost of gas for heat increases as it inevitable does. There are other harder to measure things such as how often the heating appliance cycles causing wear and tear on it, i.e having to replace that sooner, we could assume maybe for the heck of it that it might run 5% more frequently with retaining the old windows than it would if the windows are replaced.
The percentage differs per building, I know I saw an immediate measureable reduction in MY electric bill amounting to about $35 a month by replacing just windows in 3 openings in the kitchen where my computer desk office is. I replaced one set of 2 double hung windows that appeared to be salvaged from somewhere butted against one another, with 2 Pella wood windows, aluminum clad on the outside that were within one inch of being the same size $192 each.
I replaced that ugly, stupid aluminum horizontal storm window and the completely inoperative old wood slider with the vinyl tracks with these two wood, aluminum clad Pella windows, they were about $125 each and I made the opening taller than the ugly original slider was to let more light in.
And I replaced the door as mentioned earlier, with a window, a Pella wood, aluminum clad as the others, that was around $189 as I recall.

This was where the horizontal slider was, bad pic due to the sun, but all the trim is stained oak, and modelled after the original painted pine window trim that the rest of the normal windows had.











That saves me a measureable $35 a month minimum because now that I don't have ICE on the inside of the glass and all that cold surface setting up a convection draft (cold surfaces chill the air and it falls to the floor, it creates an air movement that feels like a DRAFT) I no longer have to have a 1500 watt space heater behind my chair ON me to keep from freezing. Do the math: 1500 watts x roughly 12 hours a day x 30 days = 18,000 watts or 18 kwh x .08/kwh comes to about $43 a month during the heating season. I have not calculated what the summer cooling is, but my electric company dropped my monthly equal budget payment to $103 and my one 5200 btu window a/c cools the entire 1000 sq ft house.

Soon as I put those windows in the savings started and it's more than 5%, the savings is every month, the window replacement cost is a one time thing.



> "I think the existing windows look fairly solid."


 All but guaranteed those windows are NOT hardwood, the interior TRIM might be, but the actual windows are almost certainly softwood caked with layers of lead paint.
Looks from the outside don't always tell the whole story.



> "Personally, I would stick up plastic over interior windows for dead air space, and to stop convection currents. This could be repeated annually."


 Oh yes, repeat anually! I got sick and tired of the staple-the-plastic sheeting over the windows routine, having them come loose in winter storms, get dirty and hard to see thru. If you have renters/tenants you can't expect they will put up with that.

Aluminum storm widows are UGLY, my house had them and they were piss ugly, you could only open the bottom, they were a major chore to clean too, I got rid of all of mine. New storm windows would likely have to be custom made to fit old windows of a non stock size, the cost for new storm windows comes close to just replacing the old windows in the first place with a quality brand like Pella, solid wood, aluminum clad. Granted, storm windows do help a lot, but new ones, custom sized to fit old windows not only look ugly to begin with, and add an odd looking gap between the glasses that is noticeable, but harder to keep clean, and cost almost as much as new windows.


> http://www.oldhouseweb.com/product-showcase/windows/
> Here's our growing collection of replacement windows (and accessories) for old houses.





> " I likely would NOT replace the windows in the Thompson building, for several reasons. One, the original architectural elements (in what I believe are the original windows) which simply cannot be replicated at a reasonable cost. Two, plain and simple, the cost. I don't wan't crappy 150 dollar"


Which elements are you talking about? Yes, you could be talking about $54,000 there v/s maybe $7,000 for the $150 windows, but this is what I have been trying to say all along, the costs will be more than you expect to renovate this building, that is a big reason why it's been on the market so long and is so low priced and no one has snapped it up yet- those who would renovate a building like this know pretty well how much it will cost, we're not talking here about $50,000 or $75,000 to renovate a building this size, were talking in the upper six to seven figure levels here when you consider all the stuff that has to be replaced or repaired- plumbing, electrical, roof, interior walls, flooring, fixtures etc

Here's a comment from another forum that sums it up pretty well:

"I will tell you though, as an old house lover & renovator, old houses will ALWAYS cost more than you think. Always.
As an example:
We blew out the back of our third floor walk in attic space for a master bedroom addition in our 1902 house.
When it was all said and done, it cost us about 200k....and that's not because we dipped it all in gold or that we're idiots.
When you pull back a wonky subfloor and find that there are about 5 generations worth of electrical additions/splits/ etc. then that's how things add up. Plus add in that we're in earthquake country and had to jackhammer out the foundation, and rip out and restore walls on the 1st and 2nd floors to put in a 3 story post....and then the new roof, gutters,new windows, new HVAC additions, moving plumbing out of the way plumbing, paint house, the cost of the architect, the gc, the subs, the permits, the structural engineer, etc etc you get the picture....."




> "I would nail new oak hardwoods over that old subfloor of yours"


 Wood floors and multiple large dogs don't go well together at all!, I wanted a permanent durable, easy to mop floor which is why I went with white commercial grade porcellain tile in all the rooms, including the bedroom. Only the front parlor and my added on studio room have wood, oak parquet.



> "See how the siding is level with the window casing on your house?


"

I duplicated what the original windows were exactly, that's exactly how they were made in 1930 on my house, the trim and header were flush with the clapboard. I don't know who designed the house but it was not well designed or built well, even the roof didn't have a ridge beam, I added one in the attic. They used 2x4s over 16 feet long spaced on 2 foot centers for the heavy plaster and lathe ceiling in the front room, running them the long way across the length of the room! It was no wonder the ceiling sagged down 6" in the center.
There are different styles and different methods of building depending on the area, if projecting the windows out further is the style in your area that was the style then, there. You have to consider other issues too- the more you project out, the more likely leaks and rot will happen.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> "I am ALWAYS for repairing historical plaster and lathe, "


Repairing a few holes and cracks is one thing, but when you have huge areas of plaster fallen off the lath due to water leaks, that goes well beyond "repairing." Plaster and lath walls and especially ceilings are not in my opinion a do-it-yourself job, and that photo above is not going to be a repair job, it will be knocking down the rest of that plaster that is ready to fall down and replacing it all. The ceiling is the worst surface of all to spend time messing with!

They applied the materials in layers, starting with a cement/sand/lime mixture which I have seen, and it may depend on the place and time what exactly they used, but what I've seen is a thick layer of sandy cement to start with, covered with layers of finish plaster.

Temporary lath guides are placed vertically to the wall, usually at the studs. Plaster is then applied, typically using a wooden board as the application tool. The applier drags the board upward over the wall, forcing the plaster into the gaps between the lath and leaving a layer on the front the depth of the temporary guides, typically about 1/4 inch. A helper feeds new plaster onto the board, as the plaster is applied in quantity. When the wall is fully covered, the vertical lath "guides" are removed, and their "slots" are filled in, leaving a fairly uniform undercoat.

It is standard to apply a second layer in the same fashion, leaving about a half inch of rough, sandy plaster (called a brown coat). A smooth, white finish coat goes on last. After the plaster is completely dry, the walls are ready to be painted. Traditional lime based mortar/plaster often incorporated horsehair which reinforces the plasterwork.

It's an artform you have to learn from someone who does this kind of work, I personally would never even attempt it and I work with plaster and concrete every day.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I am sure the windows are currently as you described, caked with layers of leaded paint, sash cords rotted. I would certainly NOT leave them like that. Now, I'm no fool, I know I would spend a long time, likely all summer (or longer), restoring them. I've used the following process on a smaller scale of windows before. I'll describe the process, but let me mention first that I understand the hazards of leaded paint, and I would keep the area very well ventilated, while wearing a good dust mask as well. 

First, I would pry off the interior sash stop. Next, I would chip away the old glazing and pins, and remove the glass panes. Afterward, for the exterior side, I would sand it down with a rough grade of sandpaper, then again with a more fine grain, until the paint was more thin, and even. Following, depending on the time I had to spend on the project, I would either do the same for the inside of the sashes (and interior woodwork/window casings), or, as I would always prefer, I would use a heat gun to strip the paint all off of the interiors, sand lightly, and refinish the wood. If it is a softwood like pine as you said, or if it has been painted with a bugger like milk paint (that stuff never comes off), I'll just sand them like the exteriors and primer/repaint both sides. I really hate the Victorian era pine woodwork faux finished to look like it was oak, that is nearly impossible to replicate. Obviously, I would need to re-pin and glaze the window sashes before I repainted, and it takes time for the glazing to set. I prefer DAP-33 myself over silicone based glazings. 

Now, for the bottom window sashes, I would re-hang them with new sash cords, or better yet, sash chains to last longer. After weather-striping, they would be in proper order, ready-to-go. The hardware like locks and handles would likely need replaced too. I would simply nail or screw the upper sashes in; no sense in fooling around making them work. It would be too difficult to reach the upper window sashes on these huge windows anyway. As long as the lower sashes work smoothly, I don't see a problem here. Now, I would be much more partial toward replacing the windows on the Lowe building, but I don't think I could bring myself to do it on the Thompson building. Plus, I would have to go with a new color scheme on the thompson building, there is no way to match vinyl or cladding to paint, unless you go with pure white, which I don't want to do. 

Remember the back portion of the building I showed you in a picture earlier? I posted it below, again. These two upper floors, based on the floor plan I saw, would make nice two bedroom units, one per floor. It would kill me to replace those windows, but this portion almost appears as a seperate building. After the windows were restored, I would debate installing storm windows over this portion to attract potential renters. There shouldn't be a problem if it functions properly. If not, I would offer to stick up transparent plastic every year, if that helps. They sell interior plastic too. Like the Lowe building, I would be more partial to replacing these windows, over the windows in the main portion of the building.

New 3 track storms open on the bottom and top, your storm windows were cheap and junky when they were new. I totally understand replacing in a case of non-original rotted-out windows like yours, but I honestly believe these windows can be salvaged. Modern storm windows are less ugly, see the link below. Now, you would need a different style/size to match certain windows, but this Low-E window would be decent, functional, and pleasing style in my eyes. However, it is a two-track window. There are lots of nice styles of 3 track windows on the Lowes website.

http://menards.com/main/storm-screen-windows/larson-24-x-39-white-aluminum-low-e-glass-storm-window/p-1364219-c-9460.htm

Also see: http://www.lowes.com/pd_13148-78360-C3033647_0__?productId=3039593&Ntt=storm+windows&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dstorm%2Bwindows&facetInfo= 

I agree that the ceiling picture you re-posted is NOT repairable, and it is a tear-down and start over project. I would seriously consider installing a tin ceiling in that room as you suggested. You cut off my sentence in your quote early, and that made it sound like I was trying to get a different point across; I was agreeing with you. Here is my entire sentence: "I am ALWAYS for repairing historical plaster and lathe, but in a building like this it is only feasable for interior walls." Afterward, I went on explaining that I would tear-down exterior plaster and late walls, as well as damaged ceilings. I agree, I would not mess around with a ceiling. I posted that picture stating that it was beyond my abilities; I used it as an example. 

Now, my other picture showed a repair I WOULD attempt, which was and INTERIOR wall on the Lowe building, with a much smaller hole. For that, you would wet the visible lathe to keep it from twisting and warping, then do a few coats over it with a large trowel. I have watched extensive videos on it, and I have attempted much smaller-scale repairs with non-traditional products, such as plaster of paris and joint compound. By the way, you do have a lovely house, and those kitchen windows look very nice. Considering my budget, I could not afford any replacement windows with other necessary repairs that are needed to the building, to make it liveable.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I am sure the windows are currently as you described, caked with layers of leaded paint, sash cords rotted. I would certainly NOT leave them like that. Now, I'm no fool, I know I would spend a long time, likely all summer (or longer), restoring them.


Well you may find out just how much of a pain in the azz this really is, and how much time it takes. Personally just the thought of all that gives me as much "thrill" as removing layers of paint from a tin ceiling, there's no way on earth I would do that, not when there's alternatives and int he case of the tin ceilings- they are still made today the same patterns the same way.




> I would use a heat gun to strip the paint all off of the interiors,


NEVER use a heat gun on this, aside from the lead poison, more old buildings have been burned to the ground by the use of heat guns for paint removal, torches on the roof etc than probably any other cause I know.

FYI No. 10

BURNING THE PAINT OFF

The Dangers Associated with Torches, Heat Guns, and other Thermal Devices for Paint Removal

Updated July 2000

Buildup of old paint on wooden, masonry, or metal surfaces can inhibit the ability of new coats of paint to adhere. Buildup of paint on millwork can diminish the texture and depth of the historic materials. In some cases, excessive layers of old paint can inhibit a building's ability to breathe. Many rehabilitation and restoration projects, accordingly, call for removal of old paint as preparation for new finishes. Some contractors find that thermal devices, including heat plates, heat guns, and open flame butane or propane torches, are effective tools for paint removal.
These methods are extremely dangerous. Buildings catch fire because of these practices. Irreplaceable historic buildings have been destroyed and lives have been threatened. Despite the continued warnings of the State Fire Marshall's office, the Department of Historic Resources, and the Department of the Interior, the number of important buildings threatened, damaged, or destroyed by this practice keeps growing:.

The danger is greater on old buildings. Flammable debris, including animal nests, sawdust, lint, and cobwebs, accumulates in joist pockets, attics, and other recesses. This debris can be easily ignited by blowtorches, and it can a
lso be ignited by the lower temperatures created by heat 
plates or heat guns. Fires started in such recesses can smolder for hours before flames break through to the surface.
Even if the surface to be stripped of paint is a non flammable material, such 
as metal or masonry, torches or heat guns can ignite nearby flammable materials. The fire at the Stonewall Jackson School was caused when torches ignited the wood backing behind the metal cornice.


http://www.nps.gov/hps/tps/briefs/b...the Appropriate/Safest Method to Remove Paint




> there is no way to match vinyl or cladding to paint, unless you go with pure white, which I don't want to do.


White is an almost universal color, it goes with everything, you don't have to match up walls or other things to white window frames, I didn't, my house is pale yellow, the windows and trim I painted white the first time, so the white windows I put in last summer were a perfect match that way since that's the color the old ones were.



New 3 track storms open on the bottom and top, your storm windows were cheap and junky when they were new. I totally understand replacing in a case of non-original rotted-out windows like yours, but I honestly believe these windows can be salvaged. Modern storm windows are less ugly, see the link below. Now, you would need a different style/size to match certain windows, but this Low-E window would be decent, functional, and pleasing style in my eyes. However, it is a two-track window. There are lots of nice styles of 3 track windows on the Lowes website.




> I agree that the ceiling picture you re-posted is NOT repairable, and it is a tear-down and start over project. I would seriously consider installing a tin ceiling in that room as you suggested. You cut off my sentence in your quote early, and that made it sound like I was trying to get a different point across; I was agreeing with you. Here is my entire sentence: "I am ALWAYS for repairing historical plaster and lathe, but in a building like this it is only feasable for interior walls." Afterward, I went on explaining that I would tear-down exterior plaster and late walls, as well as damaged ceilings. I agree, I would not mess around with a ceiling. I posted that picture stating that it was beyond my abilities; I used it as an example.


Okay.



> Considering my budget, I could not afford any replacement windows with other necessary repairs that are needed to the building, to make it liveable.


Okay, but now I guess we get to the root of the whole thing, I mean all these ideas and plans are great, but you are going to have to do two things very soon, one is decide if you are going to BUY the place or not, the other thing is you need to sit down and figure out exactly how MUCH your budget IS, what can you afford, how much you can put down on a mortgage and can you afford the monthly loan cost plus insurance of roughly $100/mo, real estate taxes adding about another$100/mo, the minimum charges for utilities like your electric, water/sewer/garbage/storm sewer can be another $100/mo since it's commercial and you usually will be paying this to the city.

Just the loan, taxes and insurance is likely to run around $500/mo minimum, and that's assuming you put roughly $5,000 down cash and only carry about $10,000 mortgage.

There is also closing costs, title search fees, apprasal fees, the county recorder fees, and most people pay a lawyer to do the things the bank requires, or the bank charges the fees at closing which can be several hundred dollars.
You already have a pretty good idea now what just replacing unrepairable windows would cost, and some of the basic costs for some of the materials.
You really need to sit down with pen and paper and figure out how many sheets of drywall you might need to repair the walls and ceilings, that are beyond patching with plaster, how many tin sheets to cover that ceiling, how many square feet of flooring is rotted and needs replacement, what the roof will cost (mine on a 20x96 building would cost around $20,000 to replace the PVC membrane, that's just the fabric no structural!!)

Come up with a ballpark figure, research some on-line prices for materials at lumber yards etc and come up with a total. Then divide that by 3-5 years to come up with a rough idea of the averaged out costs per month.
I say 3-5 years because most, many municipalities have ordinances that require such work be COMPLETED within a certain set time frame, this is to avoid those who buy a junker of a house and then much to the annoyance of all the neighbors, the place looks half finished for YEARS, with construction debris laying all around, scaffolding rusting away, windows still boarded over etc
The city will usually grant an extension, but there's a limit as to how many extensions and how much time they will give you to finish the work for final inspection.
Improvements also get them more tax revenue, they want that ASAP too.
The insurance carrier also will be putting pressure on because a half finished renovation is an extreme risk for them, more buildings being renovated burn down than you'd imagine, from temporary wiring and extension cords, old wiring that becomes damaged during the renovation, power tools, things falling etc.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

it might be more energy-efficient (and more interesting) if you two guys could hire a hall somewhere neutral, and have a debate on window conservation or replacement in front of an audience; then take a vote.:laughing:

I've found both your comments interesting and both give food for thought.
Personally, I'm a little more inclined to mt's view on repair rather than wholesale replacement. Just because items were stock/cheap a century ago, doesn't make them not worth repairing; old timber is often of better quality than new. Retaining some of the old also keeps the history of the building. 

But then again, I'm not paying!

Good debate, and good luck with your projects.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks Tony! Now tell me, what's your background? What do you specialize in?

Now, about the windows, while it would be a pain to get up there and paint them, it honestly wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run. The pictures below are from the historical society, and they aren't the greatest. I'll try to post some better ones that I took when I get home. Now, you can see some of the extent of the woodwork below. Regardless of the windows, I'll still have to get up there every 7-10 years at least to repaint the woodwork and original window casings. One cannot replicate this design with vinyl, and there is NO WAY that I would do away with the original woodwork. Basically, if I have to repaint the woodwork as often as the windows need repainted, the arguement of replacing windows for easier maintenace is invalid, because it wouldn't really make much of a difference.

Another issue about replacing the windows is the stained glass above every window. Now, on the majority of the winows, the stained glass is in a seperate pane above the actual window, and if all of the main window sashes were removed, a replacement window could be installed in the opening, saving the stained glass windows above. However, the stained glass would damage efficiency, and installing a storm window pane outside of the stained glass would cover up the beauty of it. Another thing I would NEVER EVER do, would be to remove the stained glass above the windows. Back to my main point, not every window has the stained glass panes above them. The "Wall of Windows", in the apartment area, second floor (see the second picture in the red circle), has the stained glass literally ATTACHED to the glass of the upper sash. Replacing these windows would entirely do away with the stained glass. You can't see it well here, but I have close-ups I took of it, I'll post them tonight.

Another thing, I know there are some dangers to heat guns, but I didn't know they were that bad. Usually, I just put the gun down for a while when the paint chips start to smoke and glow. Then again, that sounds a little more dangerous when typed, I suppose. Well, it appears that all of the windows are painted from the inside from Historical Society photographs. While I would love to have natual wooden windows, heat guns do occasionally scare me. Not to mention, they are likely victorian era pine windows that are faux finished to look like oak. I'll most likely sand each side of the window, and primer/paint them. I don't think that will look too bad. Not to mention, ALL the woodwork on the second floor is painted the UGLIEST shade of green! I don't know if you saw the pictures on the first page, but it was AWFUL! I do not want to remove all of that paint. I posted one of the shots below. 

Wow... $100 a month JUST for real estate taxes? For the whole duration of the mortgage? That seems over the top to me, but what do I know? With all of the different colors of roofing material on the Thompson building, one would hope that someone has made an attempt at patching leaks. Looks like it has been tarred somewhat recently, and the white, I would assume, is where someone tried to use the white patch to seal the roof recently as well; see the last picture below. Also, the fact that the 2009 pictures resemble the 2011 pictures very well. As in, no new aparent leaks. Hopefully, it still looks the same in 2013 when I tour it this spring. It looks like they have totally given up on the Lowe building, though. And again, as I stated before, I can't judge the materials needed until I tour it. There are WAY to few photographs to judge anything, I can barely get my bearings as to where I am in the building from the photos. I can't do anything until the weather warms up, but I certainly plan on seeing it in a few months. Only time will tell what happens.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> Another thing, I know there are some dangers to heat guns, but I didn't know they were that bad. Usually, I just put the gun down for a while when the paint chips start to smoke and glow.


Old buildings have accumulations of dust, cobwebs, lint and extremely dry wood, it takes very little to get a fire going. I know of a number of churches who had roofs replaced or repaired by contractors and invariably someone used a heat gun or open torch and the old wood and dust caught fire burning the place down in minutes.

The former state capital building here had a large dome and cupula, and the contractors were removing paint and/or re-roofing and they caught the wood on fire, and the whole cupula went up in flames.



> On November 20, 2001, contractors using open flame torches and heat guns on the cupola supporting the building's gold dome accidentally set the cupola on fire. Golden smoke rose from the Old Capitol Building as the dome burned. The fire was limited to the cupola of the building, thanks to a concrete slab firewall that had been installed during the 1920s renovation. The bell at the top of the Old Capitol was irreparably damaged, the dome was destroyed, and the tens of thousands of gallons of water used to douse the blaze caused major damage. The University of Iowa later settled a lawsuit with the contractors for $1.9 million


.














> ALL the woodwork on the second floor is painted the UGLIEST shade of green! I don't know if you saw the pictures on the first page, but it was AWFUL! I do not want to remove all of that paint.


That green is what I call seasick green, or Willowbrooke green, Willowbrooke being a mental hospital and they painted the walls that dark green to keep the patients calm or something.
The walls in the rear of my building had that kind of green paint, it was horrible, and you have to wonder what goes thru people's minds to select a ****ty, dark color like that.
Trust me, you DON'T want to strip that paint. There is nothing unique about any of those elements, the wainscoting etc is a case of it's cheaper to replace than spend the time and expensive paint remover trying to hand strip all that.
It might be oak but more likely just the lowest cost softwood since it was painted.




> Wow... $100 a month JUST for real estate taxes? For the whole duration of the mortgage? That seems over the top to me, but what do I know?


That's $1,200 a year yes, according to your tax assessor page, 

http://www.columbianacntyauditor.org/propertymax/rover30.asp?sid=F7AB66D90ED14529A3082BD77AFECE6C

the tax rate in East Liverpool is $60.05/$1000 assessed valuation according to that web page. There could be discounts or other reductions I am unaware of but that's the amount it shows, and that's per year.
Figure on a minimum of $1,000 a year as it stands now in the condition it's in, as you increase the value the taxes will increase as well over time.
Probably half the funds go to the local school, another chunk to the county, the city, for storm sewer maintenance, fire dept, police etc.
Your $1,000 a year payment won't even cover the payroll cost for one full time city police officer for two weeks.
And with the insurance, the mortgage holder- the bank will require insurance be maintained the full duration of the loan, the bank will be listed as the primary beneficiary, with you as the second.
I pay around $70/mo for my insurance, for the Thompson and Lowe together and all that sidewalk, plus the age/condition, you can bet $100/mo is almost certain.



> With all of the different colors of roofing material on the Thompson building, one would hope that someone has made an attempt at patching leaks. Looks like it has been tarred somewhat recently, and the white,


No doubt that's what happened, patches on patches on patches, never getting the leaks stopped and never spending the money to do it right once.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

mt & RW;
Just regarding the windows. As I said, my own preference in an ideal world would be conservation and repair rather than wholesale replacement. However, regardless of any repairs which may be needed, removing the old paintwork would be one of your most time-consuming jobs.

None of the 3 methods (mechanical, heat or chemical) is easy, and RWolff makes the sensible point regarding the fire risk if using a torch or heat gun. Chemical has its own problems, and is often not easy to apply to horizontal members. You've also got to clean it off with water, or a solvent stipulated by the manufacturer, and then the grain will come up.

If that were my job, I'd tackle the workings first, replacing chords, pulleys etc as necessary. Then I'd just wash the frames thoroughly to get rid of the grease and grime, and then sand them by hand, though not down to the wood. 
Now here's where the purists would disagree; the frames will of course have many layer of paint on them, and will be chipped and marked. They are big, and will need many hours painstaking work to get them back to the wood, and then of course filling gouges and inevitable blemishes. The danger is that the job is so big that it would be easy to give up part-way through and just buy new. I don't see the harm of leaving the blemishes under new paint. After all, the wear-and-tear is part of the history of the building, and I'd rather see old, well-worn original (but clean) work rather than new.
That's just my own opinion and I know many will disagree. 

Almost forgot; you asked my background; I trained as an architect but then went into historic building conservation. Most of the buildings I deal with are late-18th and 19th century domestic. Biggest problem is dealing with later additions and alterations to old buildings - a balance has to be struck. We generally try to preserve as much as possible of the history of the building, rather than attempting to return it to what we think it might have looked like when built. 
As always, though, it's down to money !!

cheers.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> mt & RW;
> 
> Now here's where the purists would disagree; the frames will of course have many layer of paint on them, and will be chipped and marked. They are big, and will need many hours painstaking work to get them back to the wood, and then of course filling gouges and inevitable blemishes. The danger is that the job is so big that it would be easy to give up part-way through and just buy new. I don't see the harm of leaving the blemishes under new paint.


Most people have no idea how much time and remover it takes to strip paint off woodwork, the stuff CLAIMS it removes X number of layers but the cold hard fact is all of these chemicals sold for homeowner and do it yourself use are so watered down to reduce injury lawsuits it's laughable, absoluteky none of the stuff has the strength and power it did 20 or 30 years ago.
Back then you could get a lime remover to take lime deposits off your toilet bowl etc and it worked, now the stuff is so diluted even the entire container can't remove half of the lime, and if you get any on your skin it's not much more than orange juice.

So it goes with stripper, you are reduced to removing about ONE layer of paint at a time with the junk sold in the hardware store no matter what the label says.
A co-worker gave me a pickup truck full of old salvaged window trim boards, they were softwood and had a few routed beads on the face surfaces, I thought I might use them in my house, but wanted to see how much work it would be to cleamn the paint off since I wanted stained wood.
It took an entire quart of remover to get most, not all the paint off ONE 5" wide or so by maybe 6-1/2 foot long board! It was a joke, I was not going to do that when I could buy new solid oak boards that size for about $9 and just rout them with a decorative cutter, and that's what I wound up doing.
I liked one of the header boards in the pile and traced it out on a new piece of oak:









TThe doorway face trim boards only took one pass with a router down one side and back the other side to make this design.










And the baseboard











It's been several years since I put these in and there's lots more to do yet, but it's coming along.




> Most of the buildings I deal with are late-18th and 19th century domestic. Biggest problem is dealing with later additions and alterations to old buildings - a balance has to be struck.


Yes, like those Menards type decorative iron trellis things people add to their porch to replace the bannisters and balustrades, or the posts, aluminum or vinyl siding with wide "boards" on a Victorian house that once had clapboard, suspended ceilings, and modern entry doors with oval glass and lever handles, yeah I know all about that stuff.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

I like the plinth block at the bottom of the architrave, where it meets the skirting board at floor level.
Most old houses have this nice detail - too many builders today leave this off and just let the architrave go right down to the floor and that looks so cheap.
(the terms I use may be different but you'll know what I mean!).

Agree about the chemical stripper. For removeable items like old doors, you can take them to a local yard where they have vats of the stuff and they just dip it in (and hope that the door doesn't fall apart if the glue gets affected).
But you can't do that with skirting boards and dado rails etc. I used some a few years ago and, like you said, it takes several applications to get through multiple layers. And the mess......!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> I like the plinth block at the bottom of the architrave, where it meets the skirting board at floor level.
> Most old houses have this nice detail - too many builders today leave this off and just let the architrave go right down to the floor and that looks so cheap.
> (the terms I use may be different but you'll know what I mean!).
> 
> ...


I forgot where I came up with the design, but it was a combination of what the windows here had inside, and other features I liked. The bird's beak or sawtooth headers were inspired by finding a 4' long scrap in a pile of old salvaged moldings, I liked the gothic craftsman style of it, so I replicated it.
I have several windows to trim inside yet, including one that was a second front door that I filled in and put a window in place of.

In the kitchen, because it was originally a back porch, the low ceiling and this doorway to the basement and outside was a real challenge. I replaced the original garbage door that was there with one I made from oak and 2 pieces of custom cut 1/4" glass to let more light through both ways.
They had the hinge pins buried against the wall which was insane. I added 2" of wall inside for more insulation and the tile below, and pine beadboard above.
That required moving the door opening over slightly and then the first concrete step on the other side needed to be made wider.
It may not look it, but the door is just wide enough to get a washingmachine/dryer through.










The window that can be seen a little, a little better shot of it, replaced that ugly aluminum and wood horizontal slider window that looked suitable for a mobile home or some other cheap construction. I opened the wall opening at the top and bottom to fit a pair of small Pella wood/aluminum clad windows in, and trimmed the inside with natural stained white oak in the same style the windows originally had but in painted softwood.











In what was the dining room, I removed the ceiling to make a cathedral ceiling in that room, the ceiling was sagged a few inches and they originally had used ordinary 2x4s for rafters holding up a heavy plaster and lath ceiling.
I framed in the wide doorway with the new oak, and a pair of salvaged heavy cast-iron brackets from 1856 are hanging in the two corners.
The horizontal cornice covers the stubs of the rafter and ceiling attachment and provides a little shelf.
I built the gothic style bookcase out of solid oak boards, it was so heavy I had to use a chain hoist to stand it up, and it was a real chore to work around when I redid the floor with porcellain tile and tore out the old floor, it had to be moved around LOL.
A tiny corner of this room's tin ceiling can be seen, as can the tin ceiling in the adjacent room.

The adjacent room's ceiling was really bad, it had sagged down 5" and they had originally used 2x4s for rafters there too, with a heavy plaster and lath ceiling. spaced on 24" centers one of the 2x4s twisted and warped and that left a huge bulge.
My solution to deal with it was I bolted 1/4" thick 2x2 angle irons along both long walls, and used them to support two 4" C channels across the width of the room. I first sheeted the ceiling with 3/4" CDX and used a jack and post to push the ceiling back up in the center, slipped the C channels in and let the weight back down to rest on those.
Then I boxed them in with pine boards, and installed the metal ceiling and painted it since this was aluminum.











The doorway from the other side, it's doubtful there were doors, no evidence of any having ever been there, but the front door is on the right in the pic, and there was a second front door of a different style around the corner in the adjacent room.
I made the pair of gothic styled gates for the doorway out of walnut scraps, and stained them with red mohogany oil stain, keeps the dogs out of this front room which has parquet flooring.














The ceiling in this room, showing an example of the boxed in C channel. I cast 4 reproduction brackets in plaster to hang under them as an added decorative touch. The original was a very ornate antique French wood carving bought on Ebay


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

1. I was intrigued by the tin ceiling, never having seen one before. I googled it and was amazed by the retro patterns available - presumably there's a good business in restoration of old ceilings.
It must have saved a lot in the old days in terms of plastering; a good early example of rationalization of building perhaps.

2. The craftsman gothic style bookcase I really like - and the gates, and what's the gothic feature behind (like a church organ?). The atmosphere reminds me a little of that painting by Grant Wood (not the expression on the man's face I would add!) but rather taking the style of another land and time and turning it into something distinctly American. I thought the house looked really nice and homely outside, and the interiors do it justice - you must be proud of it.

Great job!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> 1. I was intrigued by the tin ceiling, never having seen one before. I googled it and was amazed by the retro patterns available - presumably there's a good business in restoration of old ceilings.
> It must have saved a lot in the old days in terms of plastering; a good early example of rationalization of building perhaps.


I see you are not in the USA, I assume these tin ceilings are an American phenomenon, the concept dates back to around the 1880s and it was originally invented as a low cost replacement or alternative for plaster ceilings. It was extremely popular in commercial buildings and stores because most of them had a large amount of square footage.
I think the tin was more popular in commercial applications in the Victorian era and the houses built then tended to lean more towards elaborate wallpapers with lots of colors and designs.
There are probably half a dozen firms making new tin and aluminum ceilings today, though 1 or 2 may be just resalers that appear to be manufacturers since they have the same exact designs 1 or 2 others do.




> 2. The craftsman gothic style bookcase I really like - and the gates,


Here's a picture before I added the rest of the door pull rings, and obviously before I replaced the floor too.
I just came up with something for the design on scrap paper and this was the result. The oak boards used was all 5/4" thick, so those inset panels on the side are not panels at all, that's actually one board.













> and what's the gothic feature behind (like a church organ?). The atmosphere reminds me a little of that painting by Grant Wood (not the expression on the man's face I would add!) but rather taking the style of another land and time and turning it into something distinctly American. I thought the house looked really nice and homely outside, and the interiors do it justice - you must be proud of it.


It actually IS an organ facade, it was my class woodworking project when I went to a community non credit 15-16 course years ago, everyone else built cutting boards and little cabinets and pencil boxes, this was my project.

In the former bedroom behind it the wall is mostly removed behind this, and the bedroom has most of the guts of a 1930 pipe organ, the mechanicals, including the blower is in the basement, and the console is in the adjacent room.
The hanging lamp I also made out of oak, it needs some of that bubble glass used for stained glass windows yet.












Difficult to tell in this photo, but the console is actually on a large platform that has 4 casters under it so it can be rolled out a little or moved as needed, it can't move far since there is a 100pr telco cable and a flexible windline going to the controls from the basement.
This is all solid mohogany with some cherry accents, it was dinged up and some moldings missing that I had to replicate, refinished stained with red mohogany oil stain. It was stored for some time in the churchs' nursery/daycare room but the kids didn't do any damage to it.
I bought the whole thing from them for $1500 around 1996 and it took a medium sized U-Haul truck to move all the parts.
It was built in 1930 and some of it is working, but a lot more to do to get it all working.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, I got news today that crushed my hopes and dreams like a garbage compactor, or so it felt anyway. I heard that someone bought the building for "a project". The next thing I learned, was that it was just sold for ONLY $13,000; the Lowe building included in the price. I'm very disappointed, but perhaps God has other plans for me...

Beautiful house, by the way. I love the old woodwork and the organ. I especially like the white painted tin ceiling, I think it looks even nice than the bare metal one. Must have taken you a long time on just the woodwork alone.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

mt999999 said:


> perhaps God has other plans for me...
> 
> .


They say the 'Powers That Be' sometimes move in mysterious ways.
Maybe there is an even better proposition waiting for you around the corner.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Well, I got news today that crushed my hopes and dreams like a garbage compactor, or so it felt anyway. I heard that someone bought the building for "a project". The next thing I learned, was that it was just sold for ONLY $13,000; the Lowe building included in the price. I'm very disappointed, but perhaps God has other plans for me...
> 
> Beautiful house, by the way. I love the old woodwork and the organ. I especially like the white painted tin ceiling, I think it looks even nice than the bare metal one. Must have taken you a long time on just the woodwork alone.


I'm sorry to hear, I know how wrapped up in this you were, but still, I can't help but think maybe it's for the best! Unless you have a large disposable income and a good sized nest egg and steady sure income, this project would have run you into the poorhouse fast.
So someone else bought it, now you know fairly sure that they won't rot further or be demolished, time for you to keep an eye out for something similar even if it's in a nearby town.
I kind of figured that the time that went by since this topic started with your plans, that someone would come along and make an offer and walk away with the buildings.
As I say with real estate, procrastination is someone else's opportunity to come in unexpectedly and snap up an opportunity from under you. Most likely this deal has been in the works for some time, you just were not party to it.
Thanks for the complements and yes, it's taken a long time!


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> I'm sorry to hear, I know how wrapped up in this you were, but still, I can't help but think maybe it's for the best! Unless you have a large disposable income and a good sized nest egg and steady sure income, this project would have run you into the poorhouse fast.
> So someone else bought it, now you know fairly sure that they won't rot further or be demolished, time for you to keep an eye out for something similar even if it's in a nearby town.
> I kind of figured that the time that went by since this topic started with your plans, that someone would come along and make an offer and walk away with the buildings.
> As I say with real estate, procrastination is someone else's opportunity to come in unexpectedly and snap up an opportunity from under you. Most likely this deal has been in the works for some time, you just were not party to it.
> Thanks for the complements and yes, it's taken a long time!


I certainly would hope so, Tony!

Yes, perhaps your are right. A large, disposable income is certainly NOT something that I have, but I feel that when there is a will, there is a way. I tend to be a dreamer, and perhaps my plans were over my head. I imagined I could make the back area a liveable space, not to mention the storefronts would take minimal efforts to be useable as well, and that would start a good income for needed repair funds for the rest of the building. I could have atleast started with the storefront areas and then moved on to the upstairs. Not to mention the Liberty Tax store occupying the main storefront; that would bring in revenue as well. 

I can't be sure it wont be demolished, I don't know the people very well who purchased it. A woman bought it, and I was talking to her son. He said she purchased it for a "project", and she wanted to turn the "30 or so upstairs rooms" into a hotel/apartments type area. He didn't sound too sure, and lord knows how his mom could handle a complete renovation/restoration. He stressed that there was a full bar in the cellar, and that's all he seemed interested in.

I'd imagine the woman has barely seen the building, and would likely just leave the deterorating woodwork and windows as they are, perhaps because they still are somewhat painted yellow. I don't imagine that those type of people will do much with it at all, and I'm sure they wouldn't pay me to paint the windows/woodwork. I can't afford to voulenteer to do a job like that for free, despite how much it would kill me to see it rot more.

Plus, I have been talking to the man that runs the historical society, and I got wind of a rumor that a Utah Firm (Better Cities LCC) has put that building on it's list of buildings it would like to see torn down to "better the city". They were hired to help the city's economic development, I suppose. They couldn't pay me enough for the deed if I owned it, but that woman might jump on the offer if they offered her, say, $30,000 to purchase it and tear it down. I guess it is because the building has a great location. The whole thought just makes me sick, I hope it's all just a rumor.

Who knows, maybe I'll be in better financial shape in a few years, the woman will realize she is in over her head after doing nearly nothing to the building, and I will once again have the opprotunity to purchase it. Hopefully she'll value historical architecture over making a few bucks, incase that firm does make an offer on it. 

Perhaps the deal has been going on for awhile. I did have trouble finding the tax information on it under Ian Braslawsce's name. Funny though, the for sale sign is still in the back storefront's window, and it is still listed on the website. Her son told me she paid in cash, maybe they just went around the real estate company to avoid real estate fees. 

The buildings were for sale for years and years, like other downtown buildings. I didn't imagine anyone was interested. That was my mistake. Well, at least I learned a lesson from all of this. Not to mention, I learned lots of procedures from you on building repair and what not. I'll just wait to see what the future holds. We can continue this thread on another building just for the sake of conversation, and learning new things, if you want.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

A little trip over to Detroit's situation will be a real eye opener:

$1 to buy a house...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRpG9CjjhWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWEdjiEJg0U

Detroit on fire...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDoUpXNmcZA


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> A little trip over to Detroit's situation will be a real eye opener:
> 
> $1 to buy a house...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRpG9CjjhWI
> ...



Holy cow... Detroit sure is a mess. I can't believe it only costs a dollar to buy some homes. How does the real estate agent even make any profits? If I lived closer to detroit, I might try to invest in a few of those one dollar homes and try to make a little money off of renting them as low-income housing. Couldn't put any money into the homes, though, because the tenants would likely trash them. Just an interesting idea. I will have to visit the city one day, though. It would be an interesting sight to see. Have you ever been to Detroit yourself? 

Since Pittsburgh, Pa is local, I tend to go through the city alot. There is a small area surrounded by the city that refused to merge with it called Mt. Oliver. They even maintain their own police force. Anyway, in Mt. Oliver, there was a Catholic school called Bishop Leonard. There was another Catholic school called St. Mary of the Mount up on Mount Washington. There was not enough funds or attendance for both schools, and they had to merge. The local bishop of the Pittsburgh area attended St. Mary of the Mount when he was young, so he decided that it would stay open, and the larger, nicer school, which was Bishop Leonard, would close. The school even had their own bowling alley in the cellar. 

Anyway, Bishop Leonard has been closed for 8 years now or so, and it is a sad sight. Broken windows everywhere, and pigeons are flying in and out of upstairs windows. I took several exterior pictures. When I get the chance, I will post them. This spring, I would like to go inside with a small group and get more pictures. There is a broken groundfloor window, with a folding chair convienently place outside for easy enterance. The building is a real shame. I couldn't find any online pictures, but I'll post some when I get home.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I photographed the Little building in downtown East Liverpool today. The building is anything but little, it is massive. There are four floors of offices above the storefront level (6 storefronts and a lobby), and when you walk in the main lobby (door on the corner to the left of the telephone-pole), you are greeted by a staircase and an elevator. The elevator is old-fashioned, and only operated by the elevator operator. The man is only there two days of the week (lack of demand), and he wasn't there today. The pictures below are ones I took today. I took over 200 hundred pictures today, and some of my favorites are posted below. BTW, the ONLY occupied office is a lawyer. The rest are entirely empty. Almost all of the upstairs offices were left unlocked and empty, so I went in and took pictures. It is a cool building, although it is very poorly maintained.

First picture, exterior (1914). Second, nice Thompson building view from the fifth floor. Third, nice view of part of East Liverpool from the fifth floor bathroom. Fourth, hallway, fourth floor. Fifth, old Dr's office, fourth floor. Sixth, last occupied office, third floor.

Now, I can't find the pictures of Bishop Leonard, but that could be for another day. Another bit of good news. I talked with the new owners of the Thompson building, and they said the deed will be in their name next week. They told me that before they changed anything, I could get a photographic tour of building. They seemed ambitious, so maybe they will make something out of it. At the least, I could offer to re-do the windows to make a little money on the side. It's worth a shot, I think.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

I like that "little" building, it has a not very common angled corners.
I've been following that German house rebuild here, 150+ pages worth!

It is interesting to see the differences in construction compared to here, the guy posted loads of progress pics, I'm up to page 80 so far:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f49/german-house-rebuild-23424/

I had posted a pic of this house there, the 1870 Stewart mansion, stone, faced with white marble, it was demolished in 1901- just 30 years after it was built.
This was on 5th Avenue at 34th street in Manhattan, across the street from where the Empire State Building would be built 30 years later:











Here's a view down Broadway (Manhattan) looking South towards Trinity church from a ca.1860 magic lantern glass slide I own, only 2 buildings in this view survive today- the church in the background, and another church on the right in the foreground with the columns. It is slightly out of focus in the picture because the image is sandwiched between two pieces of glass and I scanned it, but the original slide is so razer sharp it has no grain or blur to it











And this is an interesting scene too, on a stereoview card I also own, this dates back to around 1880 and the interesting thing is, up ahead on the left is where that building I posted the photo of with the copper cornice was built in 1892, so this view shows what was there BEFORE.
Also, it is fun to examine under a magnifier every milimeter of a picture like this, and the last photo will show why:












It's not obvious in the view, but in the lower left corner you can see this:










Obviously a boy riding somewhere on the back of probably his father's wagon heading North up Broadway around Prince Street, his shadow offers some clues too, since East is to the right in this photo, and the weather does not appear to be cold/winter, it appears this was taken not long before noon maybe in the spring or early fall, which would mean boy and father were most likely heading back somewhere after having unloaded whatever was in the wagon.
Clearly the kid has spotted the photographer who would have been standing on a balcony at the hotel at this location, on the 2nd floor with a tripod and large format wet plate camera, quite obvious. It appears the glare of the sun is being fought by the boy as he looks up.
Where were they heading, what did they unload? so many questions in this view that will never be answered!

In this view, most all of the buildings in it still exist, except next to the Vogel Brothers on the left- they widened that cross-street and that little 2 story building beyond it and one of the buildings further up were demolished, and the 1892 building with the copper cornice was built on the other side of that widened cross street further up, taking out a couple of other buildings on that side.
One can also see in this view, the pair of horses pulling the horse car, these were converted (replaced) to a cable pulled system in 1894


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I like the Little building too! A few storefronts downstairs are occupied as well. It is for sale, but the man selling it is crazy; he wants $175,000! With the Thompson and Lowe buildings across the street selling for $13,000, buildings just don't sell that expensive in this area. It is a cool building; not to mention the beautiful tile floors, original 1914 elevator, and the cast iron mail drops on each floor. But, it's purpose is about gone in this town. There is not enough business to boast it anymore; it's just not worth the asking price. 

It is a nice place for people like me without cars; when it's cold out, I can just stop into the heated building and warm up. It's nice and quiet! Speaking of heated, look at the old boiler in this building! (posted below) I believe they are still using this boiler, (I think it's original) and I'm sure it's converted to gas. See the other historical society pictures on the page below, they are pretty cool. I couldn't get into the basement; I'm sure they had a "tour guide" on their visit.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/LittleBuilding.htm

Why did they tear down the Stewart Mansion after just 30 years? I seem to remember the Empire State building being build in 1933 (or was it 1931?), correct? I didn't even notice the boy on the cart at first; pretty cool. You must have alot more old New York memoribilia; you ought to start a website!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

More decay in Detroit!

On the left is a recent drive by video from youtube, on the right is Google's street view images from about 5 years ago or so:

































The guy makign the vide drove up and down several streets, many of them have every house on them like these- abandoned, maybe 1 or 2 holdouts surrounded by a bombed out Cairo like neighborhood.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

I was inside the Thompson building the other day. I wasn't prepared to go in it, and I didn't have my camera on me, so I didn't get any pictures. The woman seemed pretty iffy about me going through it, it's in bad shape. Her son convinced her to let me come back later in the summer, likely several times, and he said he'd get me into areas of the building that I didn't get the chance to see. I offered to help them clean and repair things, permitted that I have the extra time. They haven't done much, but there were lots of boxes in disarray, and they were dismantling a radiator on the second floor landing. She said she was cleaning and restoring the radiators.

Now, I was up inside the whole second floor of the Thompson building, including the back portion above the former tattoo parlor (Second Floor; Truck Drivers Union). I was allowed only to the landing of the third floor, and there was a long, narrow roof hatch ahead, and several dead pigeons. He told me they were up on the roof, and used several drums of tar just to slow the leaks, there were several. They said there were still a few small ones that needed tending to. I was only able to explore on the third floor above the old tattoo parlor (and above the second floor truck driver's union). There were several buckled floor boards from moisture on that level, and most of the plaster on the ceiling was missing. Lots of spots on the floors where plastic was laid out, as well as spots with buckets, likely where the leaks were worse. I was also inside the street level, former tattoo parlor. The tin ceiling in that room was pretty bad as well.

Everything was filthy in general, and it was very poorly lit, the whole building. The condition of the building might have gotten worse since pictures were last taken, but that camera flash from the historical society pictures must have made it a lot brighter. Plus, it was a cloudy day when I went into it. It really didn't seem a whole lot worse. It was about 20 degrees colder in the building than it was outside. The windows were bad. Most were painted shut, and some were falling inward, certain ones rattled in the wind. I will offer my knowledge on restoring those old double hung windows. There were lots of tiny, very dark rooms and cubby holes throughout. She didn't yet want anyone inside the Lowe building, which is probably understandable. She didn't want anyone in the basement either, for some reason. Her son said he'd get me in those areas, as well as the third floor of the Thompson building later this summer. I saw an entrance to the Lowe building from the second floor main landing of the Thompson building.

Her son also told me that he found a small hatch on the roof level that led into the fourth level of the turret, but he could not find any entrance to the area with the two small windows and the slanted roof that is right next to it, anywhere. I said I'd help look for it. He also said he could not get inside the cubby hole door on the roof to get to the turret, simply because the many layers of roofing tar that have been applied over the years has gummed up the bottom of the door, but I suppose it could really be forced open. It's possible that the entrance to the little room with the slanted roof was through the top turret room, that no one has been in yet. Likely hasn't been entered in years and years. You never know what treasures might be up in the attic of really old buildings like these. The attic of the Lowe building has over a foot of pigeon crap in some spots, above the fourth floor. It's a short area, maybe 2 and a half feet tall ceiling, and it's in really bad shape!

Another note; her son told me that the previous owner of the building didn't really seem to care about it at all, but he was a much older guy. Now, she didn't see half of the issues with it until after money had been exchanged. I believe she bought it with cash. He didn't really explain any of the building to them. Now, from what I've been told, I believe the previous owner's son, probably Ian, was in there smashing things up just for the fun of it. There were boxes of stuff dumped and scattered across the floor, and the carpeting was very trashed in spots. It is such a sad building, and it really deserves some care. I am glad that they bought it at this point. It might not have been able to hold out a few more years until I got my opportunity. They will likely be the ones to save the place. I might still get my chance though, she seems a bit regretful of it. She discussed doing "some work" and then selling the place again.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Odd to start this with cleaning the radiators! That one really baffles me, since the whole boiler and heating system is likely going to need replacement and it's spring, the most important thing to start with is the roof leaks not the radiators...
Well it sounds like they are going to do something at least.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Odd to start this with cleaning the radiators! That one really baffles me, since the whole boiler and heating system is likely going to need replacement and it's spring, the most important thing to start with is the roof leaks not the radiators...
> Well it sounds like they are going to do something at least.


I thought it was strange too, but I am glad they are doing it. I would have no clue how to tear them apart and put them back together. They did get up on the roof and tar it, which is a good place to start. Apparantly, she wants to save the windows too. Now, I don't know how they will go about doing it. Personally, I would remove the glass and carefully label the sashes, and them ship them out to be "dipped and stripped" of paint. If they are interested, would you still be interested in replicating some missing/damaged woodwork? I know some of the "long lost" pieces of woodwork were saved indoors (As in, woodwork that had fallen off before the last painting, which was in the early '90's). It's still repairable, but when you let the paint go for 20 years, it makes a mess. It should have been painted 2, maybe even 3 times over since the last coat. I still think some of the water damage is coming from the Lowe building. I don't think that roof is repairable at all.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Just an update, while it sure isn't as grand as the Thompson Building, I did just purchase a house with cash. Talked the pastor at the church it was donated to down to a thousand dollars. Minus missing/damaged electrical and plumbing, completely rotted-out windows, plaster damage, rotted-out deck, likely non-functional furnace and water heater... where was I going with this? Well... on top of it all, a large portion of non-loadbearing foundation wall has caved in as well. 

The good news is that I have been working as an apprentice to a contractor since May. As a bonus, the roof has been replaced a few years ago with quality 30 year shingles. Place has been empty for 7 years, minus the squatters. Cleanup had been interesting. I boarded up the missing cellar door to keep out the "rif-raf". Should be an interesting project. Ill have to post pictures.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Just an update, while it sure isn't as grand as the Thompson Building, I did just purchase a house with cash. Talked the pastor at the church it was donated to down to a thousand dollars. Minus missing/damaged electrical and plumbing, completely rotted-out windows, plaster damage, rotted-out deck, likely non-functional furnace and water heater... where was I going with this? Well... on top of it all, a large portion of non-loadbearing foundation wall has caved in as well.
> 
> The good news is that I have been working as an apprentice to a contractor since May. As a bonus, the roof has been replaced a few years ago with quality 30 year shingles. Place has been empty for 7 years, minus the squatters. Cleanup had been interesting. I boarded up the missing cellar door to keep out the "rif-raf". Should be an interesting project. Ill have to post pictures.


Sounds good, photos will be good but from your description I do have some concerns on the sheer scope of this, the foundation wall is a big concern.
Yeah I know all about the 30 year shingles... I did my roof over with Certainteed 30 year shingles, they failed in about 6 and then I discovered there was a class-action lawsuit over you guessed it- defective shingles.
I got about $1,200 from the class-action administrator which was about a 110% refund on the shingles so to speak in my case, but it doesn't begin to cover the time and all the rest, now I have to replace the ENTIRE roof again which was not what I wanted to do again and is why I used the 30 year shingles instead of the cheap stuff and why I covered the entire deck with that rubberized moisture guard roll used for eaves.
I'm going with the aluminum lock shingles and ordered one square a year ago to look at, but I'm on partial layoff at work and replacing the roof isn't going to happen any time real soon, it will also be a case of having to either do it in two halves over two summers and figuring out how to deal with the ridge vents which will have to be taken off and put back on, taken off again to finish the other half and putting it or a different ridge vent on if I do it this way, or buying all the materials needed before starting.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Sounds good, photos will be good but from your description I do have some concerns on the sheer scope of this, the foundation wall is a big concern.
> Yeah I know all about the 30 year shingles... I did my roof over with Certainteed 30 year shingles, they failed in about 6 and then I discovered there was a class-action lawsuit over you guessed it- defective shingles.
> I got about $1,200 from the class-action administrator which was about a 110% refund on the shingles so to speak in my case, but it doesn't begin to cover the time and all the rest, now I have to replace the ENTIRE roof again which was not what I wanted to do again and is why I used the 30 year shingles instead of the cheap stuff and why I covered the entire deck with that rubberized moisture guard roll used for eaves.
> I'm going with the aluminum lock shingles and ordered one square a year ago to look at, but I'm on partial layoff at work and replacing the roof isn't going to happen any time real soon, it will also be a case of having to either do it in two halves over two summers and figuring out how to deal with the ridge vents which will have to be taken off and put back on, taken off again to finish the other half and putting it or a different ridge vent on if I do it this way, or buying all the materials needed before starting.


There was a small spot that had I minor leak. Just a tiny hole in a shingle the size width of a pencil. Tarred it, and it's all good now. Tarred around the chimney for good measure, but the plaster over the chimney inside is still peeling/cracking. Likely due to the fact that the chimney has no liner or cap, just bare brick. Brick is crumbling up top, gotta tuck-point them and level the top. Needs a cap too. 80% furnace, if it works, still vents up the chimney. Other than the small hole, doesn't seem to be any sign of failure going on 7 years, thank God. Can't afford a new roof. Pictures in posts bellow.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

House front, House left, Damaged deck 1, Damaged deck 2, House right, House rear. 

I have since painted the upstairs windows white, and covered the hole in the back of the house. That was not the beaten down cellar door, however. I made that hole for hauling stones and dirt out of the cellar. Plaster by the rotted-out deck is from the upstairs bedroom ceiling I dropped. Damaged of siding on left side from gutters. I'll have to remove the siding and install new plywood below the surface. Meter was only pulled a couple months ago, right before I started looking at the place. Rotted deck needs rebuilt and needs a new roof over the portion that is over the main cellar. Other side of the deck has a small cellar that can only be accessed from the outside. Large house to the right is abandoned; small house to the left is occupied.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Living room one and two, Den (next to living room) one and two, attic above kitchen, and cellar steps. 

You can see the fireplace that collapsed on me (just chimney now, chimney is soild) in the living room, and the new wooden fireplace I found in the house. Den with no windows (I opened up the hole on the right side. Suprise, there was a cut-out facing the enclosed porch where a window once was behind the drywall). Enclosed porch was an ad-on as well. Coal cellar below part of it. Den is full of stuff I have removed from other rooms, and has double closets. Obvious water damage to attic above kitchen, causing the ceiling to crack and bow. Vent will need blocked-off.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Kitchen one, two and three. Bathroom one, two and three. 

Kitchen and bathroom are an addition (original siding inside of kitchen attic) on the back of the first floor. Main house is an old colonial, once with a fireplace on both sides. Kitchen looks more like the bathroom walls now that I have dropped all of the exterior kitchen walls. I also tore down the bathroom ceiling and the kitchen wall with the orange cabinet marks. All of which was drywall, except the kitchen ceiling. I was as black as a coal miner after the plaster and lathe ceiling was dropped, from years of coal dust. Kitchen carpet was pulled (2 layers-glued down) to reveal plywood. I dropped the ceiling to level out the huge bow, and to install more proper insulation. Walls were dropped because I wanted to access wires, and insulate; not to mention water damage from attic vent. The bathroom is the only bathroom in the house, and I intend saving the old cast iron bathtub, which still has the original finish on it. I'd like to install a full bath with a shower in the cellar at some point.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Steps going up, Bedroom on left one and two, Bedroom on right one and two, and Steps going down.

Bedroom on left contains water damage from small hole and from lack of chimney liner/cap. Dropped the ceiling already in bedroom on right. Lots of holes from a previous leaks, so I ripped it all down. Will likely need drywalled. I left the lathe in place to hold up the inadequate R-11 insulation in the attic, which will eventually be replaced. You can also see evidence of a former chimney on that side of the house. Closet was once double-sided, but was partially blocked leaving the right bedroom with no closet. I plan on framing out a small closet in the corner. Main closet contains the very small trap to the main attic, which I have been in, but did not photograph. Nothing special to note up there.

Windows are in horrible shape, but they will do for now. I bought new glass and putty, and glued/screwed the sashes back together. The windows in worse shape were glued in place for support. I then smoothed them in wood putty and painted the exteriors. These windows, in my opinion, are beyond reasonable repair. But, for budgetary concerns, I will attempt to stretch a few more years out of them. Living room window is not much better, but the the two-over-two's in the kitchen and bathroom were in better shape. The window exteriors were down to the bare wood from years of no paint, most glass was broken, and the previous owners decided a layer of plastic would fix the window issues... *sigh*


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

Looking into cellar, Damaged foundation wall below den one and two, 60 Amp main service disconnect, Cellar below kitchen, and Cellar below living room.

Door I opened and re-sealed from back yard. Was previously a door into a whole other house that consumed the entire back yard. Previous owner moved in 1958-2007 (written on furnace duct). The man is still alive, but he's in his 80's and not able to handle the steps or live anone anymore. Sold for $10,000 to investor in 2007, who tore down the dilapatated house in the backyard, and left the entire rear foundation below the kitchen wide open. Place was condemned, and donated to a church in 2010; likely wrote it off on his taxes. Pastor/contractor built a new support wall below kitchen, and had it removed from the condemned list. Hasn't touched it since. The hedges in front were grown over the porch roof before they met my chainsaw.

Damaged foundation wall is below den. From what I can understand, it wasn't nearly this bad since the church built the new rear wall. A gutter was left to empty onto the foundation wall for several years until it caved. It was like a small water-fall in the cellar until I re-directed the gutter. Caved-in section on right is less important (only below rotted deck). Caved-in section on left with all of the dirt is more vital, although it is not load-bearing considering the studs in the floor run the other way. Seems to have a fairly solid header under it. I have removed some of the dirt and stones since, which are still burying the water-meter. Place is full of damaged galvanized plumbing and broken PVC which need replaced. 60 Amp fusebox will likely need replaced, as well as the missing copper (only missing in cellar ceiling). Gas meter hook-up is next to furnace inside for some reason (don't know it that's to code). Huge "body-sized" chest freezer left in cellar as well. Duct work is newer and in nice shape. Supply in every room, Return in every room except for the kitchen and bathroom. I also plan on removing the asbestos tiles from below the enclosed front porch windows and using them to cover the missing tiles below the kitchen windows (where the rear house once met the main house).

***This Post - End of Pictures -- Posts start on page 8 of thread***

So, what do you think? Obviously, the cellar wall is the biggest issue. But, if the man-power needed is over-looked, I roughly price the materials (Cinderblock, moartar, etc...) at under $1,000. That will be the biggest project, however.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Wow you really have your work cut out for you on this, even my house which I bought for $7,900 on 1/2 acre of land wasn't anywhere near this bad, it was in move-in condition though the exterior paint was almost all peeled down to bare clapboards which turned grey, there was no real rot.
This house looks like it will almost have to be totally gutted to the bare walls and everything from electrical to plumbing etc replaced. That fuse box is definitely obsolete and have to be replaced, I would be amazed if the power company will even connect power to this in it's present condition, if there is power currently then count your blessings, leave well enough alone and don't do anything to cause them to come out and look or they could order the power turned off right then and there and the wiring and fuse box replaced by a licensed electrician before they'll even turn power back on again.

Are you even going to be able to get insurance on this property? I guess since the purchase price was only $1000 there's no mortgage/bank involved (who WOULD require insurance you'd likely never get for this place in the current condition)

I do have some concerns too about that abandoned house on the right so close, any kid, vandal, scrapper, druggie or homeless person could drop a match, lit cigarette butt or even a lit candle in there some night and if that place goes up it's so close to your house it would definitely be a severe risk to your property.

With winter coming now, you do need to get the holes closed up at least.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

Hello guys - don't mean to 'intrude' on this thread but I followed it earlier as I found both of your comments interesting and well-worth reading; same for the pics.

@mt99999; that's a lovely little house and I'm curious about it's age. Looking at the design of the downstairs front windows (small panes above, larger panes below), over here it would be about 1880's/1890's. Would that be about right, or am I way out!?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Nah, no intrusion, it's a public thread, feel free to chime in anywhere!
I'm thinking this house is closer to the 1910s to 1920 era, I think too it's been resided with that wider material which was popular in the 70s.
This reminds me of that guy in Detroit on youtube who seems to have a nice little business of finding and repairing houses for investors, he puts up videos showing the houses and he hires people to renovate and repair, paint etc and then finds renters for the new owner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DhuYPBtTmk


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

tony.g said:


> Hello guys - don't mean to 'intrude' on this thread but I followed it earlier as I found both of your comments interesting and well-worth reading; same for the pics.
> 
> @mt99999; that's a lovely little house and I'm curious about it's age. Looking at the design of the downstairs front windows (small panes above, larger panes below), over here it would be about 1880's/1890's. Would that be about right, or am I way out!?


No problem Tony! When it was listed with a realty company many moons ago, the listing stated 1920. I believe this to be inaccurate, considering that the first floor kitchen and bathroom appear to be a 1920's addition. If you look at the attic above the kitchen, you can see original wooden siding that indicates that the kitchen didn't used to be there. Plus, the 2-over-2 windows in the kitchen and bathroom appear from a different time period, and the wall between the kitchen and the rest of the first floor is significantly thicker than the other walls. 

The front porch with the 4-over-1 windows is an addition that I would imagine to be around the time of the kitchen considering the original front door added on the enclosed porch that I found, and the windows. Plus, the original siding is visible behind the porch drywall. You can see the opening I cut into one room where I was accurate that a window was once there, with the original siding cut around it. It is currently sided in asbestos siding that I plan on caulking and patching, then painting. Under the porch, you can see where the stone wall would have originally come, and it was cut back. The original porch posts are being used as support posts for the front of the house now, LOL. There is a coal room under half of the porch. 

I believe the house was an old colonial, with evidence of a fireplace on either side of the house, and the four 12X15 rooms, the living room and bedrooms, were the only original part of the house. There is evidence of an old single-pass steam boiler with a pipe coming out of the floor by the chimney in each main room. I have a thread on this site in HVAC about the current furnace in this house. The fact that the woodwork was installed, and THEN plaster and lathe was added, says something to the old age of the place. To get to the point... my guess, with other minor evidence, is that the original portion of this house was built in the late 1800's, with a kitchen and bath added in the 1920's. What do you think, RWolf?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Could be, there's not much left visibly of the original house after they apparantly did some extensive remodelling in 1920, it's basically a 1920 house now.

Mine was built in 1930 but I found plenty of clear proof the kitchen was originally a back porch and it was converted around 1950 to a kitchen by installing plaster and lath walls etc. The abstracts show a loan and the bathroom sink, tub and toilet were dated 1950 and under the old oil cloth flooring were sheets of newspapers from early 1950s.
By the 60s plaster and lath walls were no more, since sheetrock came out.
The wall between the kitchen and the rest of the house had wide horizontal pine boards normally used under clapboard, and that wall has blown-in insulation like the rest of the exterior walls.
The front porch was not originally there either, I could see roof shingles and some painted clapboard inside the ceiling of it, it was probably added a few years later or maybe in 1950 too.

Your abstracts might say more, look for loans, second mortgages or sudden increases in property taxes- that's when new portions would have been added.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Wow you really have your work cut out for you on this, even my house which I bought for $7,900 on 1/2 acre of land wasn't anywhere near this bad, it was in though the exterior paint was almost all peeled down to bare clapboards which turned grey, there was no real rot.move-in condition
> This house looks like it will almost have to be totally gutted to the bare walls and everything from electrical to plumbing etc replaced. That fuse box is definitely obsolete and have to be replaced, I would be amazed if the power company will even connect power to this in it's present condition, if there is power currently then count your blessings, leave well enough alone and don't do anything to cause them to come out and look or they could order the power turned off right then and there and the wiring and fuse box replaced by a licensed electrician before they'll even turn power back on again.
> 
> Are you even going to be able to get insurance on this property? I guess since the purchase price was only $1000 there's no mortgage/bank involved (who WOULD require insurance you'd likely never get for this place in the current condition)
> ...


I have heard that I have my work cut out for me a dozen times over, between family, friends and neighbors... in those words. A pattern is developing... LOL. This place was listed for $7,400. I talked him down to a much more reasonable price considering condition and location. Parking is tough on this hill. I park on the perpendicular street across from me. I found the pastor and his "team" rebuilt the rear support wall on the back of the kitchen (pink plastic on rear of house). It was once wide open when the house behind it was torn down after the old man moved out. That new wall got it off of the condemned list... good thing the city doesn't know about the other wall! The city did send an order a year ago to rebuild or tear down the rotted-out deck.

I have been all through the place next door. Looks like it was once a storefront, which I learned a sandwich shop was in a storefront on this hill a LONG time ago. It has been converted to two houses. Still has the steps coming up from the street to the second floor from the sidewalk. There are alot of burnt spoons and needles in that place to give you the idea. I plan on investing a few bucks in plywood to cover the broken windows and the beaten-in door to keep the brats and bums out. Neighbors told me that teenage kids sometimes sleep inside of it. I have been worried about someone lighting a fire, and I certainly can't afford insurance at the moment. I'm "donating" a thousand dollars to the church, and they are quit-claiming the property to me. Clever.. huh? Money is tight, I have to do it all on a budget. Don't know if I mentioned it before, but I am fresh out of high school. I suppose the Thompson building was a bit out of my range.

I have already gutted the kitchen walls and ceiling, as well as the bathroom. I'd like to keep the plaster in the other rooms. The man had a good amount of outlets installed. Three per bedroom, and like 6 per room downstairs. The dry-wall sections in the house were done by the previous owner who moved in in 1958, and out in 2007. He wrote his name behind the plaster board, installed 1976, and that he was 47 years old. He has half of his life story written on the ductwork in the cellar LOL. Don't know when the siding was done, but likely between 50's and 70's. The dingy green color is original factory finish... I'll just paint it with a sprayer. Already puttied and painted what is left of the upstairs windows white. Kitchen/bathroom windows are still in fairly good shape.

Plumbing is a mix of rusty galvanized and broken PVC. It all needs re-done, but the job is simple. Water heater is directly below kitchen sink and the bathroom, so not many runs needed. The water heater has been full of water for the past 7 years! I drained it... at least the tank isn't broken! Electrical is scary. Mix-up of knob and tube spliced into old romex. I'll slap some new romex where necessary, and several junction boxes. Some of the wiring is stolen out of the cellar ceiling, but it's still in the walls. Kitchen sink and bathroom with get new GFCI outlets on a 12 ga. line to comply with code. I already have a cabinet plan (when I can afford it) pictured below. Did it up on the internet. Neat... eh? The left kitchen window from the inside will be partially covered by the cabnet, but oh well. I'll paint it shut! LOL. The 2D version doesn't seem to be showing. The 36" cabinet to the left of the bathroom door by the wall is a double sink basin cabinet.

No utilites are connected at the moment. Power company just pulled the meter a couple months ago. I called in to see what it would need to be reconnected, and she said a deposit to turn on the electric, and an engineer from the company will be sent out to inspect the fusebox. Darn... I'll probably have to replace it. I was hoping to get away with patching in the missing wires convicingly, but one of the pull-out fuse blocks up top is quite corroded. Don't think they still sell replacenets. Gas meter is (or was) located inside next to the furnace for some reason. Water meter is (or was) buried under the collapsed cellar wall. I'll use something to block those holes this weekend.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999;1267081
There are alot of burnt spoons and needles in that place to give you the idea. I plan on investing a few bucks in plywood to cover the broken windows and the beaten-in door to keep the brats and bums out. Neighbors told me that teenage kids sometimes sleep inside of it. I have been worried about someone lighting a fire said:


> It's already a big risk- people have been cooking cocaine or something in there and half stoned fools with a lit lighter or matches in one hand and needle in the other losing consciousness is a perfect way to start a fire, hopefully you can secure it with a couple of sheets of plywood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> It's already a big risk- people have been cooking cocaine or something in there and half stoned fools with a lit lighter or matches in one hand and needle in the other losing consciousness is a perfect way to start a fire, hopefully you can secure it with a couple of sheets of plywood.
> 
> Not that I recall, I guess I thought you were older, 30s or 40s, fresh out of high school folks don't usually embark on trying to buy a building to renovate, but yeah we're ALL on a budget these days...
> 
> ...


 
There are a couple street level windows that are smashed. Plus the front door, 2 back doors, and very small basement "hatch" on the side. The other windows would require a ladder, and I doubt someone would go to that extent, considering an empty lot away, the next house down the hill is also abandoned with the door wide open. I "toured" it also. Roof is shot, and it is very small, so I kept on looking. This house is too far away to be a threat. All other near-by houses are occupied. 

People usually think I am significantly older than I am. I hope I'll be living in a better place when I'm 30/40 years old! A garage would be nice. I know I'm young, but I'd like to get away from my parents eventually, and I just can't see throwing away the money every month for a rental. I'd rather have a place with no mortgage or rent, and this seems like a deal. Property taxes are only $150 a year at the moment. All of this assuming I can get the cash to get it liveable. I'll likely have to try and get a small loan, maybe $10,000 to put in the minimal making it liveable. It would be alot less per month than rent or a mortgage. I'm fine with Goodwill furniture, used cabinets and stick-down linoleum. It doesn't have to be high-class.

I was initially thinking about PEX piping, but seeing how small the runs will be, might as well use copper. I am more comfortable with copper, believe it or not. Even more than just the feel of soldering, it seems more sturdy than clamp-together plastic lines. I'll look into the new breaker box. Can't be too hard to install. I know a little bit of electrical. Wost case, if I can only find a new-looking box, I'll paint the box to match the cellar walls with dry-lok paint. Some white dry-lok would really brighten up that dingy cellar... of course, after there are complete walls to dry-lok.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> I'll likely have to try and get a small loan, maybe $10,000 to put in the minimal making it liveable.


This could prove to be the more difficult part of this, with several things working against you- the banks have become much more stringent on loans, this property would not be able to be used as collateral and even if it was they would require it be insured which brings out another difficulty.
Unless you have great credit, it might be that your parents would have to co-sign and guarantee the loan or even apply for the loan themselves and loan it to you. It's a catch 22, you need great credit, good downpayment in cash, and assetts to GET mortgages and loans but if you have all that you don't really NEED a loan now eh!

The bank _will_ run a credit check on you, if you have no credit history that's real bad. When I bought my building I had $5000 cash to put down on the $15k purchase, I also have a higher than 800 credit score which when my bank manager went over the whole thing with me he actually remarked "you have an excellent credit score, over 800." I've also banked with my bank for 16 years and my house mortgage was obtained through them, so the small staff there all know me very well more or less personally.

I think your best bet is going to, or through your parents for the loan in some way.

Yes, you could get a newer breaker box and just paint over it along with the wall which would help make it look like it's always been there, or is not a recent install.
15 years ago that's pretty much what I did, took out the old two fuse fuse box and put in a Homline main lugs breaker box, yep I worked live but made sure I was not grounded in any way and removed one main wire at a time and wire nutted and taped the bare ends then pulled them out of the old box one at a time.
Put the new box in and installed each of the 3 main wires in one at a time carefully keeping the nut and taped ends intact and covered untill they were where they needed to be.

In your case the power is already off so that will be good for you.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> This could prove to be the more difficult part of this, with several things working against you- the banks have become much more stringent on loans, this property would not be able to be used as collateral and even if it was they would require it be insured which brings out another difficulty.
> Unless you have great credit, it might be that your parents would have to co-sign and guarantee the loan or even apply for the loan themselves and loan it to you. It's a catch 22, you need great credit, good downpayment in cash, and assetts to GET mortgages and loans but if you have all that you don't really NEED a loan now eh!
> 
> The bank _will_ run a credit check on you, if you have no credit history that's real bad. When I bought my building I had $5000 cash to put down on the $15k purchase, I also have a higher than 800 credit score which when my bank manager went over the whole thing with me he actually remarked "you have an excellent credit score, over 800." I've also banked with my bank for 16 years and my house mortgage was obtained through them, so the small staff there all know me very well more or less personally.
> ...


Currently, I don't have cash on hand for a down payment. Out of high school in May I had no credit, but I did get a $10,000 loan for a car. My mom's name is on the title, I guess I co-signed. However that works, we did it so that I would get some credit to my name. I make all of the payments since we have bought it, but that is only a couple of months. I haven't had any late, but I don't know what a few months of payments will even add up to. I could try to get one of my parents to co-sign for me. I'm not making enough at my current job to handle utilities, but I'm looking for a job closer. Knock 60-70 dollars out of the gas every week. I have a pretty sucky commute. Ought to take up DJ'ing on weekends.

I don't think I mentioned it, but at the moment, I don't currently "own" the house. I have an agreement worked out with the pastor, but I probably ought to get something on paper. He said a thousand dollars cash was fine in the spring. I have been setting a small amount of money out of every pay to be on track to having a thousand dollars cash in April. He told me he didn't care what I did to the place in the meantime. I guess he figures it can't get any worse. Point is, I figure instead of giving him that thousand dollars, I could use it as a down payment on the $10,000, and just give him a thousand dollars out of the loan. Wouldn't that work?


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Currently, I don't have cash on hand for a down payment. Out of high school in May I had no credit, but I did get a $10,000 loan for a car. My mom's name is on the title, I guess I co-signed. However that works, we did it so that I would get some credit to my name. I make all of the payments since we have bought it, but that is only a couple of months.


That's a good start, the other issue is the bank will see that you already HAVE a recent $10k loan outstanding and that becomes a negative in some ways- they look at total debt, income etc. Having one loan and applying for another is like having _several_ credit cards which is also a negative usually.
Car loans are usually ridiculously easy to get mainly because the car will have value and even if it's destroyed in a crash it's insured and the bank or finance company are not going to lose out.
It differs with a deteriorated house like this one, it has no resale value and really about the only value there- is the land it sits on is likely to be worth at least what you are paying for the place.
Look up the assessed value of the property to see what the county has figured the lot is worth, the assessed value should be broken down into land, and then buildings/structures, that will give you a better idea. The bank will almost certainly not lend more than the land is worth, it's just not enough value or profit to bother with a mortgage loan on a property a house sits on in this condition.
Your best bet is going thru mom/dad similar to how you did the car loan, they may agree to it if you come up with the cash to pay all the fees involved to get the loan, it shouldn't be very much but there would be some fees.



> I haven't had any late, but I don't know what a few months of payments will even add up to.


I can tell you that the amount you paid in a few months has hardly reduced the loan principal by much at all, I don't know how it is with car loans but with mortgage loans and personal loans you are mostly paying down the _interest_ first for the first year or something like that.



> I could try to get one of my parents to co-sign for me. I'm not making enough at my current job to handle utilities, but I'm looking for a job closer.


The income angle is going to be a big issue, if you don't have enough to cover utilities how will you cover them in a few months, PLUS the payments on $10,000 loan too?
Even if you use no gas and electric there are always minimum meter charges for the service each month, it might be $10-$15 for the gas and maybe that amount for the electric, that means $20-$30 a month even if you use nothing at all, they will certainly also require some amount as a deposit, it might be $100 or some amount based on average billing of service used by the previous owner when it was occupied.




> I don't think I mentioned it, but at the moment, I don't currently "own" the house. I have an agreement worked out with the pastor, but I probably ought to get something on paper. He said a thousand dollars cash was fine in the spring.


Whatever works for them, works, they did get the place for free and tax-free, so it's not like they can complain!



> I have been setting a small amount of money out of every pay to be on track to having a thousand dollars cash in April.


One thing you might not have noticed, 4 times a year, about every third month you get a 5th payday that month in place of the usual 4, the months it happens depends on the day of the week you get paid, so if you look at the callendar you'll see which months have 5 paydays and since most bills and the like are monthly, that
s almost getting one extra paycheck every 3 months, plan on setting a large chunk of that aside.



> I figure instead of giving him that thousand dollars, I could use it as a down payment on the $10,000, and just give him a thousand dollars out of the loan. Wouldn't that work?


I couldn't say, it depends, there will be some fees for the loan and they may require collateral or something else from your parents. A second mortgage on their house for example would almost certainly cause the bank to want an apprasal or some such, credit check etc and there's fees involved with all of that, it could amount to a few hundred dollars or more in fees and out of $1,000 a few hundred dollars doesn't leave a whole lot left over.

Here's a video I was watching last night, the Shea show I mentioned before, this guy with the little business in Detroit finding and renovating junker and foreclosed houses for investors, a woman bought this really cute house for $1500, he shows the inside and largely downtrods it. The front door has been gone for a couple of years as google street view shows, you might watch his videos because he covers a lot of things about buying and fixing up old junker houses and foreclosed houses, costs and things like that too;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8250YsJlvhM

He has another clip showing 7 houses someone bought on Ebay for $5,000 sight unseen! every one of them is basically ready for the bulldozer- roofs caved in, windows gone, stripped out, brick entry fallen down etc.;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuJFLJ0JApA


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

The property is assessed at $1,400 Land Value, and $8,900 "Improvements", for a total of $10,300 property value. I checked these out at the courthouse a few months ago just to be sure no taxes were due, and that there were no leins on the property. The title came back clear. I also checked to ensure that it was not condemned at our local city hall. The man said it used to be, but not any more. But they said an order was sent a year ago to have the deck repaired or torn-down. Good thing they don't know about the foundation wall! It's not a load-bearing wall, so I am wondering if it would be easier to put up mesh and have a cement truck pour a concrete wall in place. Cement sidewalk on that side of the house needs re-done as well.

http://www.columbianacntyauditor.org/propertymax/rover30.asp?sid=99889947285D4C54B6907DEF7E999838

The gas minimum around here is $20 with the furnace off, but the house has a gas water heater. Water/Sewage minimum is $50, but that includes trash pick-up and recycling. Even with 9 people using water at our house (mother-in-law suite above the garage), paired with several leaky faucets, the maximum monthly bill is $65-70. Some other people I know in the area pay less than $60 monthly with a family of four people. Don't know the electric minimum, but I found several electric bills while the house was sitting empty that weren't more than 4 or 5 dollars a piece, stating transmission fee and things like that. Some of the bills were even zero dollars, but he might have had money on the account. Before I really jump on it, I know I need to secure a better job, although, I could handle the minimums right now. What I can't handle is $150 or whatever gas bill in the winter.

If the pastor of the church will go along with it, I'm hoping to "donate" a thousand dollars to the church (tax deductable), and they will sign over the deed tax free. Saves a couple bucks that way! Couldn't be more than $50 to notarize a quit-claim form and have it registered with the county recorder. The church does have a small amount invested. Three years of property taxes, and they did build a new support wall on the back of the property, which took voulenteers and time, plus lumber. They won't be making much on this deal, but if they wait any longer, the place will have to be torn down, plus more years of property taxes. I'm sure the guy just wants the place out of his hair at this point.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> The property is assessed at $1,400 Land Value, and $8,900 "Improvements", for a total of $10,300 property value


I would pretty write off the "improvements" portion since repairs would cost more than the house is assessed at, so you know it's worth at least the $1400 for the land.



> so I am wondering if it would be easier to put up mesh and have a cement truck pour a concrete wall in place. Cement sidewalk on that side of the house needs re-done as well.


Concrete delivery typically has a minimum charge, last I heard it was a certain amount of concrete plus the delivery charge, for some reason I'm thinking $800.
You'd be probably better off mixing it yourself like I did, or buy/rent a portable electric concrete mixer, I bought mine from Grizzley for something like $200 a number of years ago and I've used it a LOT for foundation and slab work.
The sidewalk may be CITY responsibility to repair/maintain, you should not touch the sidewalk at all without finding out first.




> The gas minimum around here is $20 with the furnace off, but the house has a gas water heater. Water/Sewage minimum is $50,
> Don't know the electric minimum,


The electric minimum is likely to be around what the gas is, $15-$20



> Before I really jump on it, I know I need to secure a better job, although, I could handle the minimums right now. What I can't handle is $150 or whatever gas bill in the winter.


Of course, and that house likely is not well insulated too.
A new job is another one of the bank negatives for loans and mortgages, they like to see a long term thing.



> If the pastor of the church will go along with it, I'm hoping to "donate" a thousand dollars to the church (tax deductable), and they will sign over the deed tax free. Saves a couple bucks that way! Couldn't be more than $50 to notarize a quit-claim form and have it registered with the county recorder.


I would really advise you to run this transaction through an attorney to make sure everything is in order for sure and guaranteed to be. I think my attorney's fee was $135 to handle my building transaction, do the title and lien search and all the rest needed. I don't remember if he did the county recorder stuff or the real estate agent did, but between the two of them they did everything that was required, and there was loads of forms and paperwork and I was glad to let them deal with all that garbage.

My lawyer mailed me as well as the bank documents and a letter explaining what he checked, the results, and that he guaranteed there were no liens, clear title etc etc.

Since you are going through an agent all of this paperwork, abstract and records checking and filing will have to be done by you, preferably with a lawyer. There are a lot of things the lawyer and an agent do behind the scenes you don't see that if you do it yourself and you overlook some important detail it can come back later and bite you.
Spend the money and have a local lawyer involved in checking the property and filing any paperwork and forms required by the county to do the transfer.

That url only goes to their main page.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> I would pretty write off the "improvements" portion since repairs would cost more than the house is assessed at, so you know it's worth at least the $1400 for the land.
> 
> Concrete delivery typically has a minimum charge, last I heard it was a certain amount of concrete plus the delivery charge, for some reason I'm thinking $800.
> You'd be probably better off mixing it yourself like I did, or buy/rent a portable electric concrete mixer, I bought mine from Grizzley for something like $200 a number of years ago and I've used it a LOT for foundation and slab work.
> ...


I might rent a mixer, I've used one before. Just seemed a bit inadequate for such a large project. The sidewalk is not the front sidewalk, but one that goes along the side of the house, entirely on my property. I'm sure they have nothing to do with it. Some walls were insulated, some weren't. I plan on putting up something in the kitchen and bathroom walls that I dropped, and R-30 in the attic. Currently, the main and kitchen attic are insulated with R-11, but that seems a little inadequate. It will do for now, but it will eventually need replaced with R-30... I think that's the new standard for attics.

If the property was transferred for zero dollars with a quit-claim deed, I thought that would avoid the annoying paper work. It's not through a real estate agent. It's been off of the market for quite some time now. I was hoping just to get it signed over and avoid all the crap. I assumed that a lawyer's fee would be alot more than $135, so I may just look into that. I forgot that stupid website always takes you back to the main page. If you want to see the page, just go back to the link, click on "search by parcle number". The parcle number is: "37-02299.000". By the way, I posted in the concrete and block section of the site if you want to chime in, link below.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f105/foundation-wall-repair-replace-190520/#post1268042


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> I might rent a mixer, I've used one before. Just seemed a bit inadequate for such a large project.


You'd be surprised, they will mix up about a wheel barrow's worth at a time, and all you have to do is shovel the portland and sand in, add water and it does the rest, they could keep two men busy.



> and R-30 in the attic. Currently, the main and kitchen attic are insulated with R-11, but that seems a little inadequate. It will do for now, but it will eventually need replaced with R-30... I think that's the new standard for attics.


More is always better, I have R-100 in my attic and R-24 in the walls from what I've calculated. I keep the thermostat set the same all winter at 70.




> If the property was transferred for zero dollars with a quit-claim deed, I thought that would avoid the annoying paper work. It's not through a real estate agent. It's been off of the market for quite some time now.


I realise it's not thru an agent, it doesn't matter if it's zero dollars, this is REAL ESTATE, not used furniture someone can simply pass along to you free of sales tax or something, even if a family member gifts the property for free to another family member it still has to go thru all the customary and normal paperwork, title, deed etc because it's legal real estate.



> I was hoping just to get it signed over and avoid all the crap. I assumed that a lawyer's fee would be alot more than $135, so I may just look into that.


Real estate transfers are real standard fare, there's rarely anything unique or difficult for a lawyer to do who normally does real estate related legal transactions.

Attorneys normally charge by the hour, at rates ranging from $150 to $350. You may also find attorneys who charge flat fees for specific services, such as preparing real estate closing documents. On your transaction it should not take long since there's no mortgage, agent, repairs that you expect the seller to do etc.

Just some FYI's, some of which won't apply to your purchase:

The buyer usually pays for the mortgage fees – application, origination points, discount points, mortgage insurance, credit report, mortgage broker fee. Lenders don’t normally charge all of these fees for every transaction.

*Title insurance protects against past defects in title – forged documents, undiscovered heirs, undisclosed liens.* 
There are two different policies usually issued at the same time. One’s a lender’s policy that’s mandatory if you're receiving a mortgage. The second is the optional, but highly recommended, homeowner’s policy. Local customs affect who pays, but buyers and sellers often negotiate title insurance payment. The policy typically costs less than 1 percent of the purchase price of the home.

*Document recording fees are charged for the deed, and the mortgage or deed of trust. The state may also assess transfer fees on new and assumed mortgages – typically paid by the borrower – and on the deed, paid by the seller.*
Lenders require homeowner’s hazard insurance. Additional flood, wind or earthquake coverage may also be mandatory, depending on the location of the property.

Lenders require a property appraisal that the buyer normally pays at the time of the inspection.




> I forgot that stupid website always takes you back to the main page. If you want to see the page, just go back to the link, click on "search by parcle number". The parcle number is: "37-02299.000". By the way, I posted in the concrete and block section of the site if you want to chime in, link below.


I'll take a look.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> You'd be surprised, they will mix up about a wheel barrow's worth at a time, and all you have to do is shovel the portland and sand in, add water and it does the rest, they could keep two men busy.
> 
> More is always better, I have R-100 in my attic and R-24 in the walls from what I've calculated. I keep the thermostat set the same all winter at 70.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am familiar with the mixers from work. Usually takes a mixer and two of us to do a sidewalk. Asking around at work, I have heard horror stories of molds that were very well sured-up for pouring concrete walls, but the molds still buckled and broke under the weight. I am thinking I will pour a 16 in. wide by 10 in. deep footer with rebar, and pour maybe 4 inches of concrete for the rotted sections of wooden flooring around the perimeter to get a smooth concrete floor all around. I'll likely just build a block wall up from there, and I'd like to get a couple glass block windows installed there as well. 

Boy, that sure is alot of insulation! Furnace in our house is usually set to 68, and the heating bill isn't pretty. $300-400 monthly in winter usually, sometimes more. However, we have R-19 at best in the attic, 3 floors to heat, and likely uninsulated masonary walls. Not to mention 2 forced-air gas furnaces in the main house and a gas boiler for the garage and mother-in-law suite. Just wondering -- what do you pay in the cold months for gas? Assuming you have a gas furnace, that is. I don't want to spend a fortune on insulation, so at the moment, I think I'll go with R-30 for the attic, and use some R-11 in the kitchen and bathroom walls.

Well, I guess I'll need to do more homework on real estate. I was told that one could transfer property with a quit-claim deed, just without title insurance, and avoid any extra paperwork or closing costs. It's still new to me at the moment. I'll have to talk with the pastor and ask what he had to go through when the place was donated to get a better idea. What do you figure the closing cost would be on a place that was "sold" for free or donated? I have heard that it is usually a couple thousand dollars, but I was hoping it would be significantly less in a situation such as this.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Boy, that sure is alot of insulation! Furnace in our house is usually set to 68, and the heating bill isn't pretty. $300-400 monthly in winter usually, sometimes more.


I added more cellulose blown in insulation to what was already there, it's waist-high in the attic as a result.




> what do you pay in the cold months for gas? Assuming you have a gas furnace, that is. I don't want to spend a fortune on insulation, so at the moment, I think I'll go with R-30 for the attic, and use some R-11 in the kitchen and bathroom walls.


Yes I have gas furnace, water heater and stove, I'm on the equalized payments plan so the monthly bills are pretty much predictably even all year, but here's the use in therms (100,000 BTU) for heat, hot water and cooking all combined. These amounts include the monthly meter fee which I think was $10 or $12;










And billing amount actual use;










I didn't add it up and divide by 12 but I once figured it's about $80/mo averaged ($900 a year) for all gas use. That's keeping the thermostat set about 70-71 deg F 24/7 all winter.




> Well, I guess I'll need to do more homework on real estate. I was told that one could transfer property with a quit-claim deed, just without title insurance, and avoid any extra paperwork or closing costs.


People give bad advice too, sure you CAN do it, just like you CAN drive your car along the edge of the water on a soft sandy beach but just because you can doesn't mean it's a hot idea. 
Worst case scenario you buy real estate with no title insurance etc and spend tens of thousands of dollars and lots of time on renovations only to discover a certified letter in the mail informs you that you really don't own the property after all because of some problem with a previous transfer that was in error, a lien on the property, or an injury lawsuit that was never paid, or you discover there was an underground tank you didn't know about, lead, mercury, some toxic stuff on the property, an error in an easement that means your back yard actually belongs to the neighbor's property.
There's all kinds of really nasty things that can happen with real estate transactions and you DON'T want to learn about them after spending $25,000 in renovations and a couple of years of hard work only to lose it due to some stupid technicality with the title!

Get the transfer and paperwork done by a local attorney who deals with real estate, and get the title insurance or whatever the attorney suggests to protect YOUR behind.



> It's still new to me at the moment. I'll have to talk with the pastor and ask what he had to go through when the place was donated to get a better idea.


Donations to a church are a completely different ballgame, better talk to your parents if they bought their house and ask.



> What do you figure the closing cost would be on a place that was "sold" for free or donated? I have heard that it is usually a couple thousand dollars, but I was hoping it would be significantly less in a situation such as this.


It depends, it shouldn't be a few hundred bucks, my closing on my building was not much, a few filing fees that were like $15 or something each, my attorney's fee was around $135, title search, title insurance, I don't remember it being more than around $300 or so.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

RWolff said:


> I didn't add it up and divide by 12 but I once figured it's about $80/mo averaged ($900 a year) for all gas use. That's keeping the thermostat set about 70-71 deg F 24/7 all winter.


 You're so fortunate in having all that shale gas over there! Our gas bill last winter quarter was £400 ($600?) and only a 4-bed house, and heating on only 18 hours!
They've recently found large reserves of shale gas not far from where I live, but the locals are up in arms and don't want it extracted!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> You're so fortunate in having all that shale gas over there! Our gas bill last winter quarter was £400 ($600?) and only a 4-bed house, and heating on only 18 hours!
> They've recently found large reserves of shale gas not far from where I live, but the locals are up in arms and don't want it extracted!


I don't know the source of our gas here in Iowa but looking at my bill for October, the gas portion breakdown has;

31 ccf (31 therms)

Basic service charge $10.00
Delivery charge 31 x 0.23567 $7.31
Pipeline transport charge 31 x 0.08350 $2.59
Gas supply charge 31 x 0.36253 $0.31
TOTAL: $31.45

The basic service charge of $10 taken out of that since it's charged whether you use the gas or not- means the actual gas used cost me $21.45 for 31 therms, I averaged using 1 therm per day.
Rounded out it looks like a therm is 67 cents with tax included but not the $10 service charge.

My furnace is about 100,000 BTU, I also forgot to mention I have a gas DRYER too, so the gas bill is for heat, hot water, cooking and drying all my weekly laundry.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> I added more cellulose blown in insulation to what was already there, it's waist-high in the attic as a result.
> 
> Yes I have gas furnace, water heater and stove, I'm on the equalized payments plan so the monthly bills are pretty much predictably even all year, but here's the use in therms (100,000 BTU) for heat, hot water and cooking all combined. These amounts include the monthly meter fee which I think was $10 or $12;
> 
> ...


Waist-high insulation... holy cow! Must not be any room for storage. But, I bet your house is nice and cozy in the winter. Ours is drafty and cold in most spots. The heating system is designed for an old octupus furnace with a supply in the larger rooms, more downstairs than upstairs for rising heat. The only returns are at the bottom of the main staircase, typical for an old gravity-fed furnace. Currently there is an 80 percent gas furnace in place, but the ductwork hasn't been altered for a forced air furnace. As a result, my bedroom is usually uncomfortably hot in the winter, while surrounding rooms are too chilly. For the central A/C system in the summer, the ductwork is even less functional with its current design.

With all gas appliances and heating, I'd say that's a darn low bill. The house I'm buying is set up for a gas dryer, stove, heat, and water heater. I do intend on keeping a gas furnace and water heater, but I have no intention on keeping a gas stove or dryer. Gas dryers are more expensive, and they just seem strange to me. Same goes for gas stoves. I've grown up with all electric appliances, and as a result, I am not as comfortable cooking on a gas stove. Gas lines in this house snaked all the way around the cellar to a very old 50's stove in the cellar, and then up to the kitchen. It broke easily around the cellar stove with some tension applied to it, which was very disconcerting to me! Gas meter is inside the cellar for some reason. Furnace and water heater are next to the meter, so I plan on capping the line somewhere around there, and then running electric to the stove and dryer.

There are a couple of lawyers around town, none that I know personally. I'll have to ask around for fees. Guess I never gave most of that stuff any thought. If a lawyers fee for such a service is in the $100-200 range, It's certainly worth it. Atleast the closing fee is significantly less than I thought it would be. You paid around Seven thousand dollars for your house, correct? I do need to have a good talk with the pastor regardless, haven't talked to him in a month or so. I was going to drive out to his church for sunday service to meet with him afterward, but after realizing that it is a two hour drive, I decided to pass on it. I don't know how a church in the middle of the state got ahold of this property. East liverpool is on the far east side of Ohio.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

tony.g said:


> You're so fortunate in having all that shale gas over there! Our gas bill last winter quarter was £400 ($600?) and only a 4-bed house, and heating on only 18 hours!
> They've recently found large reserves of shale gas not far from where I live, but the locals are up in arms and don't want it extracted!


I don't know if RWolff has Shale gas out in the midwest. I know where I live (Western Pennsylvania/Eastern Ohio) its booming for sure! My dad said it significantly decreased his gas bill a few years ago. Not only does it create so many new jobs (which we need with Obama killing the coal industry), but it lowers gas prices in the area. I'm not trying to turn this into a political debate, but it seems that only environmentalists are trying to shoot down the Shale people. It's a shame, because it really doesn't affect the environment any. Shame they won't extract it where you live!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> its booming for sure! My dad said it significantly decreased his gas bill a few years ago. Not only does it create so many new jobs (which we need with Obama killing the coal industry), but it lowers gas prices in the area.


Only jobs it creates is for highly skilled OIL & GAS FIELD workers, not "Jane" the waitress or "Joe" the stock broker and it will be the same for keystone- a few temporary jobs for those with skills and training to operate cats, dozers, weld and big machinery.
The Canadian oil is NOT for us, it is to use our dirty refineries to process it (and leave the pollution HERE) while they ship the oil overseas where people in China, Asia, and Europe have been paying the equiv of $8 a gallon for gasoline and are happy to get it and don't complain $3 is too high!

There is and never has been any gas shortage, we don't have enough STORAGE facilities for it nor incentives, they don't WANT the prices lower by building more capacity, same with the oil co's more supplies = lower prices = lower profits, TIGHT supplies and low capacity = higher prices and higher profits, it also translates into higher TAX revenue for the states.
When you look into the big picture it's easy to see the fraud and why supplies are always tight, no brand new refineries built in decades to increase capacity etc etc, they don't want prices low and supplies plentiful.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> Waist-high insulation... holy cow! Must not be any room for storage. But, I bet your house is nice and cozy in the winter. Ours is drafty and cold in most spots.




The attic is not big enough or having access to it larger than a 15" square hatch in the bathroom over the sink it is useless for storage anyway.
This is why replacing old single paned doublehung wood windows with double paned modern windows makes a difference.




> Currently there is an 80 percent gas furnace in place, but the ductwork hasn't been altered for a forced air furnace.


My furnace, a Lenox conservator G11E came from my work place around 2001 when they replaced all the perfectly good working furnaces with the 92% high efficiency units along with all the lamp ballasts in an energy bill cost cutting reduction plan.
After they replaced the furnaces with new "Dependable 92s" they had a heat exchanger crack on one, and at least a couple of service calls for ignitor related problems.
I don't think the difference between 85% and 92% on a 100,000 BTU furnace is worth the cost of replacing it just to save at best a claimed 7%.

What was hilarious is the installer tried to claim that the heat exchanger cracked because the filter was "dirty", it was NOT dirty as in caked, they were changed WEEKLY, and if a slightly dirty filter you can see light through is all it takes to crack the heat exchanger- the major part of the furnace then the design STINKS, there should be an airflow sensor that shuts it off if it's _that_ critical.

In fact to his face in front of my foreman the day he tried to pull that garbage on us I told him just what I thought about the lousy design and the warrantee scam- they warrantee the heat exchanger for x years but disclaim it if filters are not changed frequently enough, now tell me HOW someone can PROVE they changed filters enough??? WHo but the manufacturer determines how frequent, "frequent" is?

I told him it's a scam to cover up a crappy furnace design and a heat exchanger that was made too thin, and shoddy manufacturing if it even WAS cracked. I never saw a crack in it, he never showed it to me, and the furnace with the alledged crack in it has still been in use since 2001.

I brought home the furnace that served the front offices and installed it in the area I dug out under the kitchen for a utility room.
It's run perfectly and flawlessly with nothing more than filter changes and periodic vacuuming out since the day I installed it.
I believe it is 80% or 85% which is an improvement over the freestanding 65% gas heater that was here originally in the living room.
I had to run all the ducts and it was a major chore due to the layout of the house and the low ceiling in the basement but I managed to get heat to each room and a couple of returns.




> Gas dryers are more expensive, and they just seem strange to me. Same goes for gas stoves. I've grown up with all electric appliances, and as a result, I am not as comfortable cooking on a gas stove.




Gas dryers are more expensive because of the safety devices and regulator inside, but gas dries the clothes a lot faster, and gas stves start heating instantly. I've always had both.



> Gas lines in this house snaked all the way around the cellar to a very old 50's stove in the cellar, and then up to the kitchen. It broke easily around the cellar stove with some tension applied to it, which was very disconcerting to me!


This is why you replace old lines, and replace old flexible copper tubing with 1/2" threaded PIPE, threaded pipe is what they always used in New York City buildings, it's strong, durable.
All of my gas piping is threaded black iron pipe.



> Gas meter is inside the cellar for some reason. Furnace and water heater are next to the meter,


Gas meters have seals and a rubber diaphragm in them and can leak, they also have a vent on them that can release gas odors, just seems like a poor idea to have one indoors, I would never have one installed indoors.



> There are a couple of lawyers around town, none that I know personally. I'll have to ask around for fees. Guess I never gave most of that stuff any thought. If a lawyers fee for such a service is in the $100-200 range, It's certainly worth it. At least the closing fee is significantly less than I thought it would be.




Should not be a lot of costs, this isn't a $250,000 house and you aren't getting a 30 year mortgage, you will be paying a pro-rated property tax and various recording/county fees.



> You paid around Seven thousand dollars for your house, correct?


For the 2 bedroom farmhouse, full basement on 1/2 acre they wanted $12,500 I offered $7,900 and they immediately accepted it, the house needed a lot of work. They did not go thru a broker just a sign on the front lawn and having a new baby they moved in with the woman's father and needed the money sooner than later.
I did not get a traditional mortgage with escrow, it was a "commercial loan" around 7% and I did not have to do the escrow, points etc and paid the taxes separately myself as I do on my building.
I had put $1500 down, the closing costs were low.


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## tony.g (Apr 15, 2012)

RWolff said:


> Only jobs it creates is for highly skilled OIL & GAS FIELD workers, not "Jane" the waitress or "Joe" the stock broker and it will be the same for keystone- a few temporary jobs for those with skills and training to operate cats, dozers, weld and big machinery.
> The Canadian oil is NOT for us, it is to use our dirty refineries to process it (and leave the pollution HERE) while they ship the oil overseas where people in China, Asia, and Europe have been paying the equiv of $8 a gallon for gasoline and are happy to get it and don't complain $3 is too high!


I can agree partly with that in the initial construction phase, but low energy prices eventually feed through into consumer's pockets, increasing spending and helping the economy. 

And lower energy prices also encourage industries. I know this because several large energy-using industries here have closed and gone overseas where energy costs are cheaper. Alcoa is one example, which a year ago closed a large aluminium smelter because of energy costs. Our energy costs are high because of government-imposed green taxes to pay for wind turbines and other stupid forms of power generation.

Sad thing is, in UK we are sitting on 100 + years of coal, yet high carbon taxes prohibit mining. And yet the Chinese are busy opening new coal-fired power stations at fifty to the dozen: crazy.

By the way, we are not happy to be paying the equivalent of $8 a gallon for petrol and diesel:no:! $3 a gallon would be Christmas-come-early!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

tony.g said:


> And lower energy prices also encourage industries. I know this because several large energy-using industries here have closed and gone overseas where energy costs are cheaper


They, like the other's have left mainly due to high _labor_ costs plus worker's comp, vacation, SS and insurance along with benefits.
When they can hire workers in Afcrapistan to work for $2 a day and no benefits they are happy to move their production overseas.




> Sad thing is, in UK we are sitting on 100 + years of coal, yet high carbon taxes prohibit mining. And yet the Chinese are busy opening new coal-fired power stations at fifty to the dozen: crazy.


Coal is one of the dirtiest pollution sources there is, that's why China has a massive SMOG problem in Beijing and other big cities- they burn all that coal and other stuff and the media shows this thick grey crud hanging in the air with everyone having to wear surgical masks when they go outdoors.
The planet is like a sealed fishtank, nothing escapes into space, the pollution, toxins and chemicals all stay here like one big churning toilet bowl, we can't continue as we have been.




> By the way, we are not happy to be paying the equivalent of $8 a gallon for petrol and diesel:no:! $3 a gallon would be Christmas-come-early!


Could be worse, In Norway the price of a gallon of gas is $9.97

Some other average prices;

Canada $5.56 per gallon
France $8.29 per gallon
Turkey $9.96 per gallon
Saudi Arabia $0.76 per gallon
Iran $0.04 per gallon
UK $7.88
Venezuela $0.08 per gallon
Italy $8.84

http://www.mytravelcost.com/petrol-prices/

I totally disagree on wind turbines, at the moment 1/3 of the electric in the state of Iowa is being generated by non polluting, always produced wind turbines now and the number is increasing rapidly, that is why Google built a huge server farm here after seeing the electric costs are so cheap, I pay about 6-1/2 cents a kwh.


August 2013:

Hundreds of new MidAmerican Energy wind turbines will be sprouting up in five Iowa counties soon as part of a $1.9 billion project that will generate up to 1,050 megawatts of power in Iowa by 2015, Gov. Terry Branstad said Monday.

Branstad said the project – the largest economic development investment in state history — will create about 460 construction jobs over two years with an estimated payroll of $30 million and 48 permanent jobs with a $2.4 million payment, and an overall economic impact for Iowa that includes about $360 million in additional property tax revenue for local governments over the next 30 years, as well as payments of up to $3.2 million annually to farmers for the use of their land.

Since 2004, MidAmerican has installed 1,267 wind turbines in Iowa representing a total investment of about $4 billion and making it the largest rate-regulated utility owner of wind generation in the United States. 

The electric generation capability for MidAmerican Energy will comprise about 39 percent wind, 33 percent coal, 18 percent natural gas, 6 percent nuclear, and 4 percent other by July 2016.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> They, like the other's have left mainly due to high _labor_ costs plus worker's comp, vacation, SS and insurance along with benefits.
> When they can hire workers in Afcrapistan to work for $2 a day and no benefits they are happy to move their production overseas.
> 
> Coal is one of the dirtiest pollution sources there is, that's why China has a massive SMOG problem in Beijing and other big cities- they burn all that coal and other stuff and the media shows this thick grey crud hanging in the air with everyone having to wear surgical masks when they go outdoors.
> ...


This website really isn't the place for this type of discussion, however I will throw in a little bit more of my two cents. The media is all liberal, and they love to show things that get environmentalists going. I am aware of the smog problem in China, but I am also aware of all of the coal miners that will be loosing out on work over here from very tight restrictions that our lovely president is laying down. Modern coal plants are much cleaner than they used to be. The train used to go through town here twice a day, once with a full load of coal from the mines, and once with an empty load coming back. Thanks to our government, the train hasn't come through, ironically, since shortly after Obama came into office. Several local coal plants that can't meet nearly impossible restrictions are shutting down, costing job after job. Then, on top of the war on coal, this health care garbage is killing almost any full time job around. Look around, all positions hiring are part-time only, 28 hours a week. Concidence?


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> The attic is not big enough or having access to it larger than a 15" square hatch in the bathroom over the sink it is useless for storage anyway.
> This is why replacing old single paned doublehung wood windows with double paned modern windows makes a difference.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Attic hatch in the place I'm buying is barely 15-16 inches wide, just the size to fit it inbetween the rafters. Not to mention the slope of the roof above it, getting into the attic is a real bear. I've done it, and don't intend on doing it again until the time comes to pull the old R-11 and then feed up one batt of R-30 at a time. Maybe I'll find something good under the batts... but not likely. I don't like blown-in because I have heard many a story about people getting blown-in in walls of their house, and moisture that is designed to bleed through the plaster and lathe and dissappate into the empty wall cavities slowly soaks through the blown-in, causing it to get heavy and wet, and sag in the walls. Eventually it is just a wet mass in the bottoms of the walls causing plaster damage, and wooden siding rot outside. So people then make a vapor barrier by slaping vinyl siding over the outside of their house, and this compounds the problem by keeping moisture trapped in the walls, which then attracts termites to their rotting walls. 

My parent's house has all casements, new and old. Funny thing is that the highest quality wooden Andersen windows with the vinyl or aluminum wrap on the outside, 30 some years after installation, are not only hideous on the outside from fading and and weathering, but the built-in weatherstripping is all but completely missing and dry-rotted, several of the windows don't open from stripped gears in the opening mechanisms, and many of the double panes' seals have been breached, resulting in fog between the panes of glass which makes the windows impossible to see out of, while killing the efficiency. Some investment! Boy, I'd hate to see how the cheap ones hold up! Let me tell you that our remaining original casements from the late 1920's have held up so much better than these so called high quality replacements. Just keep a coat of paint on them, and they are set to go for another century. I need to put new weatherstripping on the old windows, and I need to get the original wooden storm windows in to stop some of the drafts. Other drafts are caused from uninsulatable masonary walls where there are large holes in the plaster from previous water damage that my stepdad decided he doesn't need to fix. 

I like to line-dry my clothes personally. Saves on energy bills, and keeps the clothes from wearing as fast. Can't forget all of the lint that the dryers pull out of clothes. I only use ours for air fluffing clothes in the summer. Before I had a full time job, I even line dryed and air fluffed all of my clothes in the winter in our cellar. Just let 'em hang over night and they will be fine. I just don't have time for such things now. I barely have time in the summer to line dry clothes outside anymore. We have a stove with a gas range and an electric convection oven at the moment. It is an interesting combination. I certainly prefer an electric oven over a gas oven. My grandmother's gas oven must have scarred me. You had to crawl inside with a match to light it, and she always made me do it for her. Gas lines in this house are threaded black iron, with a flexible copper line going to the gas stove in the cellar. Lines must just be old. The line around the furnace seems in decent condition, however. I don't know if they will move the meter outside. I just don't want to pay to have it done!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

mt999999 said:


> The media is all liberal, and they love to show things that get environmentalists going


Yeah, the "liberal" media is behind all the evil, if you say so...
Ok now that I know what "groups" you've obviously lumped me in with as a result of your comments I think I'm done with this thread and you as well, good luck with your house you'll need it!


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Yeah, the "liberal" media is behind all the evil, if you say so...
> Ok now that I know what "groups" you've obviously lumped me in with as a result of your comments I think I'm done with this thread and you as well, good luck with your house you'll need it!


Ouch! This is why I don't like discussing politics... I should have kept my big mouth shut. My comment was not meant to be a personal attack, and I had no intentions on causing any harm, nor did I intend that you were an evironmentalist on some kind of rant, that was totally unrealated and coincidental. I am truly sorry that I offended you. It would be ashame to end such a good thread with the people who were following and reading the comments, but if you are still done with this thread, and "me", so be it. But again, I apologize, and I am sorry that I offended you.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

THIS is why those old single pane windows will NEVER match the dual pane argon filled modern ones, I'm sitting here as comfortable as can be, not a particle of frost on any of my windows and it's a pleasant 72 degrees.
Had I still had the old single panel junk they would all right now be covered with a LAYER of ice/frost on the INSIDE and I would be sitting here freezing my butt off even with a space heater behind my chair as happened every winter before I replaced the damn windows.


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> THIS is why those old single pane windows will NEVER match the dual pane argon filled modern ones, I'm sitting here as comfortable as can be, not a particle of frost on any of my windows and it's a pleasant 72 degrees.
> Had I still had the old single panel junk they would all right now be covered with a LAYER of ice/frost on the INSIDE and I would be sitting here freezing my butt off even with a space heater behind my chair as happened every winter before I replaced the damn windows.


If you choose replacement windows, that is up to you. I look at it from the historical standpoint, where most old, original wooden windows add beauty and charm to the structure, inside and out. I feel that vinyl replacements look "cold and bleak", just plain square boxes. But, each to his own I suppose. One must make the choice between beauty and character, or saving some money. Perhaps they make you more comfortable, and that is fine. Aside from the maintence, one can paint wooden windows any color, adding a personal touch to a home. I do like painting. Some may not like painting, especially on a rental, and that is a reason why people would replace windows. Perhaps some people prefer the look of vinyl, it's also about personal taste. I prefer the look of original windows.

Below are a few pictures of my house I took on New Years day, while I was photographing progress inside for friends and family. Even though the recently-painted upstairs windows are still more bland-looking, the reason that I have not replaced them is mainly based on money. I agree there is nothing much special about them, and I honestly considered replacing them considering the very large amount of decay and neglect they had faced. But, replacement Windows are so expensive, and generally only take up 10% of home energy loss. A much more effective method would be to caulk gaps and cracks, and insulate, which add up to nearly 90% of energy loss (based on studies I have looked into). I have two current pictures of the kitchen below, and a picture of a cabinet layout that I designed. Despite being a common style, I like the two-over-two windows, and they are in nicer shape than any other windows in the house. However, they may have to be replaced (or somehow shortened with new glass added) to make the cabinets work.

Now, the porch windows, on the other hand, are more unique 4-over-1 style windows. While they are not anything fancy, they do have character, and the sun porch is not likely to be heated in the winter as a side note. You can see a close-up on damage to the far-left front window. A couple other front porch windows are like this, with less damage. However, since I do not intend on making the front porch windows functional (only the side porch windows), I can easily repair and paint this. I have seen some very beautiful, well-maintained and unique diamond-shaped, almost leaded-glass looking (wood mutton dividers) upper windows sashes before. I wish I had taken a picture of those windows, but I still know where the building is in Pittsburgh. However, I could imagine how painful the glazing process must be with all those curved muttons on the upper sashes, not to mention getting replacement curved glass cut to shape, or even measured to be cut.

In conclusion, new windows may be more efficient, but also have a large base cost, and will need replaced, likely by the time they are paid off. To me, even if some savings are achieved, the cost of loosing such beautiful architectural details could never be made up. I feel the old windows are priceless! Old windows are more maintence, but It's a decision any homeowner will have to make. I still feel that most old original wooden windows are worth saving, unless they are totally trashed or their current use is not practical (very tall windows barring the installation of kitchen cabinets or the like). If you are happy and more comfortable with your replacement windows, I wish you all the best. A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well!


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

Caulk helps cut actual drafts but does absolutely nothing to stop the convection process cold surfaces generate:

*Freezing from Window Cold Air Convection*



> We moved into the house 2.5 years ago. We've noticed a "draft" in this room during the winter. Going nutso over this "Draft" , I pulled all 8 recessed light cans and stuffed R-13 insulation in front and behind the Cans...leaving some space of course. I also plugged up all the holes under the Direct Vent Fireplace where air was coming in. I then caulked the two HVAC vents I have. I also pulled all the swtichplates and put in those insulation foam pads behind the switch plates.
> 
> *As I was caulking the small crevices around the vent boots, I noticed that my problem was not "leaky" air spaces, but cold air convection coming off the windows and making my room "feel" drafty.*
> 
> ...





> *Why Single-Pane Windows Feel Drafty*
> 
> July 6, 2013
> 
> ...


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## mt999999 (Jan 26, 2013)

RWolff said:


> Caulk helps cut actual drafts but does absolutely nothing to stop the convection process cold surfaces generate.


I understand the convection process, but honestly, I feel the same convection on all of our late 70's dual-pane windows, french doors and all, that I feel in the original 1920's french doors in my bedroom, with the storm windows up. Not to mention how freezing cold those 70's steel doors get! Even with a pine core, you can't beat a solid-wood door. In my bedroom, I just close the thick curtains at night. Windows insulated, problem solved! Plastic works too, but it's a little trashy. The "curtain method" works best for me.

I've gone around and caulked every gap in crack in our house, but the fact that the attic only has R-19, the masonary walls have only an inch of dead air space between the brick and the plaster (no insulation possible), we have two gas furnaces, a boiler in the 3-story garage, with a mother-in-law suite on top (with only pointless R-11 on the attic ceiling, none on the attic floor), 2 gas water heaters, all of those cold double and single pane windows, several skylights... point is, our gas bill was a whopping $800 last month, no kidding! Thank God I don't have to pay it...


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