# Paver Brick Stoop Help



## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi all,

I am building a stoop on the side of my house and since this is all new to me I need some advice.

I poured a 4' (frost line in my area is 3') foundation that the bricks in the picture are sitting on and mortared in the bricks with type S mortar. The center was dug out a foot and filled with RCA (recycled concrete- it is the standard "gravel" in my area used as a base for paver bricks) and tamped down.

My original plan was to fill in the center with brick, rocks and RCA, then top it off with concrete up to a few inches from the top. Then I planned to put down a bed of sand to sit the paver bricks in.

Now I am thinking I should take out the rocks and brick and just use the RCA and tamp it down in lieu of using the concrete.

Below are some pics of my progress which shows the fill I have in there now (the purpose of the fill is to minimize the amount of concrete required).

Any thoughs on concrete vs. tamped RCA for the paver brick top? On the bottom step I would intend to use the concrete as I will have full nose bricks mortared into it.

Thanks!


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## titanoman (Nov 27, 2011)

I would nix the crete.


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking I should remove the brick and rocks from the fill so I can get a good tamp on the RCA. Would you agree?


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't want to knock any wind out of your sails, but if the top of brick is to be the finished landing height, I would remove the top course of brick. With the amount of effort you put into this so far with the frost footing I think it would be a shame if you didn't pour a concrete slab that bears down directly on the brick/foundation. It would be the longest lasting, least maintenance approach w/o a doubt. Compacted gravel with pavers over the top will need work every few years or so. A wet-set over concrete should last decades, even longer if you were to use a hard clay paver. As for the height issue, the brick really should have an overhang/nosing as well. This is usually accomplished by running a soldier course around the entire perimeter and filling in the field with w/e pattern you choose.


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## Jeeps (Apr 12, 2012)

Nice job on that project. Kind of disappointed though, to see so much nice work done coming out of the ground to then have the part that is the most visible and susceptible to failure, be shortchanged. jmo

Ooop, sorry Joma, we posted at the same time, you are dead on.


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> I don't want to knock any wind out of your sails, but if the top of brick is to be the finished landing height, I would remove the top course of brick. With the amount of effort you put into this so far with the frost footing I think it would be a shame if you didn't pour a concrete slab that bears down directly on the brick/foundation. It would be the longest lasting, least maintenance approach w/o a doubt. Compacted gravel with pavers over the top will need work every few years or so. A wet-set over concrete should last decades, even longer if you were to use a hard clay paver. As for the height issue, the brick really should have an overhang/nosing as well. This is usually accomplished by running a soldier course around the entire perimeter and filling in the field with w/e pattern you choose.


Jomama,

What you see in the picture will not be the finished height. I will have full nose bricks around the perimeter which will overhang the brick, then the inside field will have the pavers. I have included a pic below of the front stoop (done by a contractor) to illustrate.

To clarify your post, you suggest that I go with the wet concrete and set the pavers into that? Are there any issues with the fill that I have in there now? My understanding is that it is common practice to use fill to minimize the amount of concrete needed.

If I do go with concrete I would plan to pour it several inches below the top, then scratch up the surface with nails driven into a board. Then I would use mortar on top of that into which the bricks would be set. The theory is that I would have a much easier time getting things level / pitched by working with batches of mortar than a field of concrete that will certainly dry before I finish all my herringbone cuts.

Here is what the front steps look like and how I have modeled this side stoop / step. The only differences is I used coloring in the mortar (I hate the white in the front! :furious and the step will wrap around from the front to the left side:










So only the faces of the bricks on my "walls" will show.

I appreciate any advice you have!


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Really need to add some flashing where that rim joist is before doing any poring.


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## Jeeps (Apr 12, 2012)

Dont forget the 5/8 in. rebar !


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

joecaption said:


> Really need to add some flashing where that rim joist is before doing any poring.


Thanks Joe. There actually is flashing undneath the door already (I installed that door) but I wouldn't mind adding more. Would it just be a matter of sliding another piece under what is there that runs the entire width of the stoop down to where the foundation starts?

The foundation ends and the wood starts right at the line where you see the the tar paper / house wrap.

My old door had no flashing (it was a few feet to the left) and the old concrete stoop that was there allowed water in and it completey rotted out the sill to the point where you could stick your hand in the crawl space. I want to avoid that at all costs so any advice you have is greatly appreciated :thumbsup:


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Jeeps said:


> Dont forget the 5/8 in. rebar !


 
Hmmm...I used 1/2" 

There sure is a lot of it though - drilled into the foundation and making a grid on the footing as well as underneath that rubble pile - I PL'ed it into the drilled foundation holes as per a Mike Homes show :yes:


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

A layer of Storm and Ice shield slid up under the siding and all the way past any expost wood should be fine.

I never cut out the siding when doing a stoop, I just have them run the stone or bricks about 1/2 from it.

I've seen far to many new and old houses with rotted out rim joist and foundation plates from having the stoop or deck tight to the house.


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## Jeeps (Apr 12, 2012)

Hmmm...I used 1/2" 

There sure is a lot of it though - drilled into the foundation and making a grid on the footing as well as underneath that rubble pile - I PL'ed it into the drilled foundation holes as per a Mike Homes show :yes:[/quote]

That is good, I seem to always overkill my projects. :thumbsup:


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

joecaption said:


> A layer of Storm and Ice shield slid up under the siding and all the way past any expost wood should be fine.
> 
> I never cut out the siding when doing a stoop, I just have them run the stone or bricks about 1/2 from it.
> 
> I've seen far to many new and old houses with rotted out rim joist and foundation plates from having the stoop or deck tight to the house.


Like the Peal and Seal asphapt roll stuff with the foil on it? I think I have some in the basement! (it makes good sound proofing for car audio systems).

I had thought about keeping the siding there but I figured water would find it's way in anyway.


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Jeeps said:


> Hmmm...I used 1/2"
> 
> There sure is a lot of it though - drilled into the foundation and making a grid on the footing as well as underneath that rubble pile - I PL'ed it into the drilled foundation holes as per a Mike Homes show :yes:


That is good, I seem to always overkill my projects. :thumbsup:

This is what happens when the proper foundation is not put in under masonry work. This is sand/rock/broken chips under these bricks being replaced. 


http://







[/quote]

I like to overkill as well. What are your thoughts about the concrete? Should I keep the fill I have and top off with concrete?

The fill is crushed concrete, not dirt as I have seen a lot of people use.


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## Jeeps (Apr 12, 2012)

Post # 4 nailed it.


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## Ravenworks (Oct 31, 2010)

Post # 4 is it
I would be concerned about water getting behind the bricks,"freeze thaw cycle"
Looks like good construction.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

spta97 said:


> Jomama,
> 
> What you see in the picture will not be the finished height. I will have full nose bricks around the perimeter which will overhang the brick, then the inside field will have the pavers. I have included a pic below of the front stoop (done by a contractor) to illustrate.
> 
> ...


The issue I see is that the concrete really needs bearing directly to the foundation on at least 3 sides. Pouring inside the bricks means the slab can easily settle, and the outside perimeter brick (the bull-nose brick) will be supported by the foundation, as they should be.

Typically, we would have brought the foundation up to just below grade, poured a re-enforced slab with brick ledge as necessary, and left the concrete down the thickness of the brick + about 1/2". Some masonry horizontal cladding, like random flagstone, may require as much as 2-3" of mortar bed to level out the surface due to varying thicknesses (bed depth), but brick is good with 1/2". 

Maybe you can figure out how to attach the slab to the brick adequately yet, but the only thing I can think of is to rip the existing top course in half to allow for a 2" slab ledge. Not sure I'd do it though, as it may compromise the integrety of the pavers too much.......

If you get decent bearing on the brick, and subsequently the frost walls, the fill in the middle becomes a non-issue, as the slab will span easily. As a matter of fact, we've poured small stoops over hay/straw in the past in extremely high ground water-level situations to prevent frost heave in the winter.

As for "wet-set", it's simply a term to imply the brick are laid in a mortar vs. a dry set in sand or directly over the concrete.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Ravenworks said:


> Post # 4 is it
> I would be concerned about water getting behind the bricks,"freeze thaw cycle"
> Looks like good construction.


That certainly is another concern if the top isn't sealed up perfectly. Freezing water can certainly push on the veneer brick, eventually displacing them.


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Ok, cement it is - thanks!

I still plan to use the fill to minmize the amount of concrete - please let me know if there are any issues with this.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

spta97 said:


> Ok, cement it is - thanks!
> 
> I still plan to use the fill to minmize the amount of concrete - please let me know if there are any issues with this.


No problem with that, just make sure you leave 4" for concrete, a little more is better........


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

Hey everyone,

I've made some more progress on the stoop - getting to the finish line. Thanks for all the advice thus far - the house is flashed covering the foundation and the top bricks are set in mortar.

I just have to finish the joints on the fullnose bricks and finish mortaring in the cut bricks on the herringbone pattern (in the pic just the full bricks are set, not the cut ones).

Anyway, as you can see I put the pavers in the center in a tight pattern - just the joint of the spacers between the bricks remain (~1/8"). To finish it off I would like to mortar the joints. Now I can't really slap mortar in there as the space is so small so I was thinking about polymetric sand. After doing some research it seems that most people say it doesn't work well at all.

Then I saw another idea of taking DRY mortar and sweeping it into the joints and misting with water to harden it. The only purpose of this is to give it a more finished look and to prevent water from getting in the joints.

Is this a bad idea? Anyone ever do it?

Thanks!


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

.....and why in the world is there rebar in the porch? (rhetorical question) Someone watched too many diy videos? Actually weakens the concrete. Just sayin...


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

spta97 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've made some more progress on the stoop - getting to the finish line. Thanks for all the advice thus far - the house is flashed covering the foundation and the top bricks are set in mortar.
> 
> ...


looks good tho


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## spta97 (Aug 14, 2010)

This is the first vote against rebar I have heard and yes, I watch way too many home improvement shows! It is more to tie it into the house as I have heard steps will often pull away with freeze / thaw cycles. 

And thanks for the complement. This is the first time I have ever done brick work so it was a real learning experience. God bless people who do this for a living!

Any thoughts on my question about the joints on the landing?


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## TRUEPRO (Apr 10, 2012)

Polymeric sand for the pavers on the landing. I love DIY shows too like yardcrashers and bathcrashers

This is very nice for a first timer i can say that im actually very impressed and im not impressed easy at all.

Heres me....www.eagle757.com

The reason i voted against the rebar is that concrete is actually stronger without steel when it comes to small pours like that. 

Did you drill into the original footer of the house 6-8" and insert rebar with epoxy? I just have never seen rebar in a porch is all. Not saying that what you did is wrong in any way. I had to remove a set of cast concrete steps one time that were at least 40 years old. Solid as a rock with no rebar.


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