# rebar exposed on foundation



## noquacks

people,

wanting to buy this house, but the garage foundation has exposed pcs of rebar showing about every 2-3'. About 12-20" of bar showing/poking through, and repeats every 2-3', where the neaxt rebar was placed. This has probably scared many porospective buyers in the past (its a foreclosure), and I dont want to buy this house and have big problems selling it in the future. 

Would you stay away from this? And is this a serious problem with foundations? (its a 1948 house, and heck- it hasnt collapsed...LOL)

Thanks!


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## noquacks

Oh, the garage is built into the side of a hill-the back part of thegarage is quite high- say, 7-8' of concrete foundation UNDER GROUND while the front is of course, down to ground level.


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## titanoman

Depends on how much more rebar is in there that you can't see.


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## oh'mike

No picture?

Often long lengths sticking up indicate plans for a masonry wall on top of the foundation--

Could be the budget changed and they went for a framed structure instead of the planned brick or block --picture could help explain it--Rebar could be cut back so it doesn't allarm future buyers.


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## noquacks

oh'mike said:


> No picture?
> 
> Often long lengths sticking up indicate plans for a masonry wall on top of the foundation--
> 
> Could be the budget changed and they went for a framed structure instead of the planned brick or block --picture could help explain it--Rebar could be cut back so it doesn't allarm future buyers.


Thanks, Mike, but I think you have the wrong idea- the bars are not sticking up/out/through, they are exposed- like after pouring, they cut the tops off, built the house, done. But after , I guess, they removed the plywood forms, rebar was showing on the SIDES of the wall. 

I kniow a picture is a good idea- hmmm, maybe I can get it.....lets see......


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## woodworkbykirk

without seeing whats physically there its hard to say.. as mike mentioned it could be do to a change over in materials to reduce costs.. it could have also been because the rebar was just dropped into the forms without cutting it to length so now its sticking out of the concrete. it can easily be cut off with a mini grinder and a cutting wheel


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## joed

I think what he is describing is rebar that was too close to the side of the pour and is exposed on the walls.

Probably something similar to this.


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## noquacks

joed said:


> I think what he is describing is rebar that was too close to the side of the pour and is exposed on the walls.
> 
> Probably something similar to this.


Right!! thats it! except repeated many times- say, a few feet apart. On a wall thats a full 7-8' high. (still waiting to recv that pic so I can post it, if it still helps). Also, difference being the rebar is inside the garage, not outside like here. 

Thanks, joed.!


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## oh'mike

Unsightly but not a big deal--that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me---

If you can't stand looking at it--Parge the walls and bury it---


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## Hardway

Is the rebar rusting?


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## noquacks

Hardway said:


> Is the rebar rusting?


couldnt tell by the pictures, but I would say no way steel can not rust after 60+ yrs, eh? Anyway, good to know its maybe not a deal breaker from Mike. Mightbe able to treat it/patch/paint/cover up somehow for future, if I wanted to. Hate to cut it with a disc, and then patch as I willbe weakening the whole wall, right?


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## noquacks

https://mail-attachment.googleuserc...2&ik=f796d43365&view=att&th=135e00b34789b174&


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## noquacks

Darn- server error ......


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## oh'mike

I put that as 'funky by functional' and would not cut out the exposed rod---

Like you said--it's been there since it was made and hasn't fallen down---

Still doesn't sound like a deal breaker.

Do you have a skilled contractor that you could call in to assess the house for you?
Not an inspector--that is needed perhaps --but a person knowledgeable in older homes that could quickly go through the place and give you a thumbs up or thumbs down on the structure--and mechanical of the house?


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## noquacks




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## noquacks

oh'mike said:


> I put that as 'funky by functional' and would not cut out the exposed rod---
> 
> Like you said--it's been there since it was made and hasn't fallen down---
> 
> Still doesn't sound like a deal breaker.
> 
> Do you have a skilled contractor that you could call in to assess the house for you?
> Not an inspector--that is needed perhaps --but a person knowledgeable in older homes that could quickly go through the place and give you a thumbs up or thumbs down on the structure--and mechanical of the house?


Right, Mike. I feel so much better now. Oh, picture above- Im sure you saw it by now. I will not cut them out. 

Now, new problem- this thread is morphing- all of a sudden, rebar is no big deal anymore- its the seepage of water coming through one of these walls. After a local moderate rain last wk, seepage is showing into the garage. remember, the back wall (concrete) is totally below ground, and judging by the look of my picture, when this was poured, I bet the workers did not purge all the air pockets from the slurry, and it entrained/trapped air which now, are the least path of resistance for ground water seepage. 

Geez- is it even possible to fix that? Are there foundation specialists that can , with a stethescope type tool, locate these "pockets", drill, and "fill" in the voide, if thats the cause?

This MAY be the deal breaker, I dunno- I like the house. I cant have a river flowing in and then out to the front garage door to the street in heavy 3 day downpours.......


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## Hardway

noquacks said:


> couldnt tell by the pictures, but I would say no way steel can not rust after 60+ yrs, eh? Anyway, good to know its maybe not a deal breaker from Mike. Mightbe able to treat it/patch/paint/cover up somehow for future, if I wanted to. Hate to cut it with a disc, and then patch as I willbe weakening the whole wall, right?


 
If it is rusty, a patch wont hold.


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## Hardway

noquacks said:


>


the foundation is failing.


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## oh'mike

You will need a basement waterproofing expert or a foundation expert to look at that---

If it is rain related then a set of drain tiles might be all that is needed--
worse case? excavate and waterproof--then backfill and drain tiles--

Not likely you will get a great answer here---a good one ? Maybe--there are several foundation pros here.


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## oh'mike

the foundation is failing.:eek:[/quote said:


> Why did you say that? The rebar was placed to close to the forms and the concrete spalled off--
> 
> are you seeing something I missed?


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## Hardway

oh'mike said:


> Why did you say that? The rebar was placed to close to the forms and the concrete spalled off--
> 
> are you seeing something I missed?


the concrete is spalling because the rebar is rusting. when the rebar rusts it expands and cause the the concrete to expand causing spalling. The DOT is testing using carbon fibers in place of rebar in an attemp to stop the spalling from the rebar rusting and expanding. with the carbon fibers the concrete may crack but wont spall.

http://www.buildingonline.com/news/viewnews.pl?id=3782


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## oh'mike

I understand that ---why did you say the foundation was failing?


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## Nailbags

That is a major Deal breaker for me. It is shoddy construction. Very Sub standard. What else is wrong? that has been covered up? If that happened on a foundation I would sub out I would have the whole thing redone at the expense of the SC.


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## oh'mike

Poster is looking at an vintage house (1948) -- a foreclosure--this is a garage foundation--


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## Hardway

oh'mike said:


> I understand that ---why did you say the foundation was failing?


 
The OP said now there is water seeping in thru the poured foundation. If the rebar is rusting and spalling on the inside and the outside. What is the rebar doing on the inside? I can’t see inside the wall and say what is going on. But the surface is spalling as seen in the picture. Need to have someone that is an expert in foundation, I suspect they would 
x-ray the wall and see what is going on.

http://concretesealerandblanket.org/blog/?p=61

“Concrete has two layers: an attractive, smooth, outer surface, and a rough, rocky interior. *Concrete spalling* occurs when the attractive top layer chips away, revealing that ugly interior material.”
“In my research, I’ve come across a great many explanations of what causes spalling. Some claim that damage and wear are the primary causes of spalling. Others say that spalling is caused by rebar corrosion. I have also seen it claimed that concrete spalling is caused by “carbonation of the concrete where carbon dioxide reacts to chemicals within the concrete”, while even others say that poor concrete construction habits are the culprit for most spalling issues.”
Have you ever seen this on a foundation before? See photo below. 
The rebar showing in this Austin home is called a “concrete spall” Basically this situation happened because the rebar in this concrete slab was too close to the surface of the slab edge and it started to rust because it was getting moisture and oxygen.
The rust is a growth on the surface of the steel and because of this growth, the rebar is getting fatter and the rebar requires more room to expand. The expanding steel causes the concrete to crack, break and delaminate the area around the rusting steel. Many times just a little rust can cause the first cracks in the concrete surface, but then the rust growth can really pick up speed as water and air enters the small cracks and feeds the rust, which I call “cancer” to the steel.
In Austin, the climate is fairly dry, and there is no salt air from the ocean so the rebar can take a long time to cause spalling to happen. In this case, the slab edge was getting wet from years of sprinklers feeding the problem.
*The solution to a spall, is to review if the steel is needed to structurally support the foundation or if it is not.* In this case, the steel is multiple layers of overlapping rebar and the bar close to the surface is redundant and can be cut out. The other bars are going to have to be cleaned to bare metal. All rust has to be removed.
To remove the rust, first chip away all loose concrete around the rebar and chip the solid concrete to expose the entire rebar as best as possible. Grind, wire brush or hammer off all the rust on the rebar. The rebar will need to be coated with an epoxy paint to seal the steel from any moisture or oxygen. At that time, the concrete can be patched with a quality mortar patch with vinyl adhesive added for strength and adhesion to the existing slab. *Care should be taken to keep all sprinklers from watering the sides of our concrete slabs as the water causes damage to siding, bricks, stones and concrete.*
Do you have questions about your Austin Foundation – Slab on Grade or Pier & Beam? Douglas Foundation Repair of Austin is your home’s foundation doctor. Call today! 512-740-8114
_Writer’s information is for discussion purpose only and should be confirmed by an independent source._
_I am not an expert and don’t claim to be, these are just my views and opinions._


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## Aggie67

There are methods of determining what size rebar is hidden within concrete, and what the spacing is. Cobalt x-ray technology has been around a while. But you need to put the cobalt on one side, and the film on the other side. I've had shots taken of concrete walls and piers, and the images are freakishly clear, and tell the complete story of what's inside the concrete. It's not terribly expensive either.

Fixing exposed rebar can be accomplished. Just take a drive by the Manhattan Bridge's west end abutment. Which is probably a bad example, since nearly every component on that bridge except the main cables and towers has been 100% replaced over its 100 year history. (Really shoddy construction, and complete replacement is out of the question.)

Fixing leaks can also be accomplished with epoxy injection.

However, with that said, these repairs would all be useless if the wall itself is unstable, insufficiently designed, or shoddily constructed. There are engineers out there that do nothing but inspect, assess, and recommend repairs on concrete structures. If it's an asset that you can't walk away from, hiring one of those engineers is a good first step.


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## Hardway

Aggie67 said:


> There are methods of determining what size rebar is hidden within concrete, and what the spacing is. Cobalt x-ray technology has been around a while. But you need to put the cobalt on one side, and the film on the other side. I've had shots taken of concrete walls and piers, and the images are freakishly clear, and tell the complete story of what's inside the concrete. It's not terribly expensive either.
> 
> Fixing exposed rebar can be accomplished. Just take a drive by the Manhattan Bridge's west end abutment. Which is probably a bad example, since nearly every component on that bridge except the main cables and towers has been 100% replaced over its 100 year history. (Really shoddy construction, and complete replacement is out of the question.)
> 
> Fixing leaks can also be accomplished with epoxy injection.
> 
> However, with that said, these repairs would all be useless if the wall itself is unstable, insufficiently designed, or shoddily constructed. There are engineers out there that do nothing but inspect, assess, and recommend repairs on concrete structures. If it's an asset that you can't walk away from, hiring one of those engineers is a good first step.


 

agreed!:thumbsup:


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## Hardway

joed said:


> I think what he is describing is rebar that was too close to the side of the pour and is exposed on the walls.
> 
> Probably something similar to this.


in time if this get wrose the bricks will fail.


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## noquacks

Geez, looks like I have some reconsidering to do. Bank owns the house, of course, maybe I can throw it back to them and give them the opportunity to hire an expert, and go from there. The rear wall leakage is what bothers me, and the spalling concept. I suspect this can snowball into something too big, we'll se.......


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## jomama45

That wall doesn't really scare me at all. I can't even tell if those really are rebar, may very well be part of the primitive forming system that was used. As for the water issues, one way or another, they can be solved from the exterior side of the wall.

One more thing about rusting rebar: The rebar in the center of the wall (if there is any, and it's not lightning rod material or old water pipe) is far less prone to rusting & failing than the steel that was placed directly next to the old hardwood formwork. It takes more than moisture migrating through the concrete to create rust. The term "oxidation" is a clear indication that sufficient amounts of oxygen must be present to sustain the process of "rusting"..........


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## Hardway

jomama45 said:


> That wall doesn't really scare me at all. I can't even tell if those really are rebar, may very well be part of the primitive forming system that was used. As for the water issues, one way or another, they can be solved from the exterior side of the wall.
> 
> One more thing about rusting rebar: The rebar in the center of the wall (if there is any, and it's not lightning rod material or old water pipe) is far less prone to rusting & failing than the steel that was placed directly next to the old hardwood formwork. It takes more than moisture migrating through the concrete to create rust. The term "oxidation" is a clear indication that sufficient amounts of oxygen must be present to sustain the process of "rusting"..........


"It takes more than moisture migrating through the concrete to create rust."

What else is needed?


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## jomama45

Hardway said:


> What else is needed?





jomama45 said:


> That wall doesn't really scare me at all. I can't even tell if those really are rebar, may very well be part of the primitive forming system that was used. As for the water issues, one way or another, they can be solved from the exterior side of the wall.
> 
> One more thing about rusting rebar: The rebar in the center of the wall (if there is any, and it's not lightning rod material or old water pipe) is far less prone to rusting & failing than the steel that was placed directly next to the old hardwood formwork. It takes more than moisture migrating through the concrete to create rust. *The term "oxidation" is a clear indication that sufficient amounts of oxygen must be present to sustain the process of "rusting".*.........


.................


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## Hardway

jomama45 said:


> .................


*And oxygen is there, if water is there, oxygen is there. Water flowing thru so is oxygen. Also what ever is in the rain water in the area. IE acid rain and other corrosives.*

*"How safe is rainwater and how can it be used?*
Water seldom exists in a pure state and almost always comes with contaminants. Atmospheric contaminants may consist primarily of dust but other considerations include fungi, bacteria, insect parts, and even radioactive materials. Rainwater is generally of good quality but there is no guarantee. It *may be sufficiently acid to be corrosive.* And that brings us to a bigger weakness in the safety of rainwater use: our catchment, conduction, and storage facilities." 

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/chatham/ag/RainHarvest.html




_Writer’s information is for discussion purpose only and should be confirmed by an independent source._
_I am not an expert and don’t claim to be, these are just my views and opinions._


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## jomama45

No need to complicate this any further than it already is. Wall failure due to rebar corrosion is no epidemic, and most all info about failing rebar you'll find will pertain to issues with chloride attack, often seen in muni infastructure, not residential foundations.

To the OP, if you're that concerned, you need to have a professional take a look at this, rather than be swayed by some folks on the web trying to make you believe "the sky is falling:........


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## Aggie67

Having inspected foreclosures, I know that banks are rarely interested in sinking money into making improvements for investors interested in scooping up property. So hoping they'd fix it (and warranty the work) is close to the "pipe dream" end of the expectation spectrum. The bank wants one thing, and that is "out". They'd sooner break into a home to shut the water off than fix the heat.

If I were looking at this property, I'd use the condition of the foundation as a fat bargaining chip. But I wouldn't make an offer without an engineer's report and a quote for rehabbing the damage.


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## noquacks

OK, back home to read posts- thanks to all here so far. Yes, bank is supposed to get back to us with a reply/opinion. Im not trying to steel (pun?) the house- believe me, this house needs tons of work- havnt even gotten into that- no reason to, actually. I was willing to take this fixer upper, and accept the disrepairs (all of which are yes, labor/expense, but not a huge deal, but the water /seepage- thats different.

But, yes, I agree at thios point, time to get a pro out there and acess/diagnose, like jomama sais, right? But, betwen the members here and me, Im not gonna sink in more concessions/fork out $2-5000$$ for this waterproofing unless bank maybe meets me half way. Thats fair, I figure- half way- 

Thanks! (I'll let yous know what happpens....)


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## joed

They should meet you full way. Why should you absorb half the cost of the repairs.


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## oh'mike

Most foreclosures are sold 'as is'---and the selling price reflects the flaws---stolen plumbing--flooded basements and all---so don't be dissapointed if they say--"this is the price--take it or leave it"


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## noquacks

Update:

Well, its a go- bank will help us out with the repair/upgrade bills. So, heres what we have now:

Foundation has some cracks, as I showed in that photo, and some water oozes through during a moderate rain. Some of that water Im sure comes from the roof above (traced it), but water through the cracks is obvious. Will this work:
http://www.radonseal.com/crack-injection/diy-injection.htm

Does maybe HD sell anything like that? Or strictly mail order?

Advice, as always, appreciated.


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## oh'mike

The foundation crack injection services do a very good job----I've never seen a DIY product the worked from the inside of the house.


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## noquacks

oh'mike said:


> The foundation crack injection services do a very good job----I've never seen a DIY product the worked from the inside of the house.


Thanks, Mike, but what do you mean by crack injection services? That it CAN work if a pro does it but not a diy with these kits? If so, why?


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## oh'mike

They use a pump with 2000 pounds of pressure--really pushes the epoxy deep into the crack--often all the way outside the house.

I don't see a homeowner kit having that kind of force.


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