# How to run wiring for lights with vaulted ceiling, no attic access?



## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Wire mold.

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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

*Wire Mold?*

Thanks, but I cannot help but think that would look really really bad and forced. Better to not have lights there at all... or put the light switch to the right of the bar (out side of kitchen.) I would know it was there and it would drive me crazy. Only other way would be to route it from above the cabinets against the wall, and through the wall between facing cabinets... so the conduit would not be seen... Difficult too because there is a closet accessible on the other side, on the first corner. I do not think there is a moulding that would be attractive on this ceiling either. Granted we are on a low budget, there are some lines I do not wish to cross. 
Maybe I am misunderstanding?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Can you explain what the HOA has to do with getting in your attic? This is a townhome, right, meaning you own your slice of a 3 or 4 unit building? Each unit needs to have their own attic access within their unit, and walls between the units in the attic are fire separated. Where have you seen the attic from, and being vaulted it is either rafters with no attic or scissor trusses with possible little room to maneuver up between trusses.

BTW it's not really a big deal for a vapor retarder to have a minor hole here and there. It is the air sealing where having holes is detrimental.


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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

My side of the firewall has eight condo's - 4 a floor with a common hall down the middle. There is only one access door to the attics. The attic is walled like the common hall walls, two doors, one each side that gives access to the front and back condos on each side. I would have to crawl through part of my neighbor's attic to get to mine. Luckily the condos partitions closest to the common hall are not vaulted but 8' ceilings instead (where the HVAC Supply ducts are.) It is hard to put into words so I wasted some time drawing it out below. Crude, I know. There are no firewalls between the front and back condos. Only the walls on the common wall sides... which is fire code gypsum. NC 2005 codes... go figure. There is a fire wall between us and the condos on the other side (a mirror of our 8 condos.) The attic door is supposed to be locked.

In our attic, there are no boards to walk on. The fluff insulation is well over a foot higher than the trusses. If I were to go up there I would have to set planks and push down some of the insulation so that I would not fall through the ceiling.
The trusses are probably the lattice kind like same as the floor under us... but I don't know.
What does all this mean: I am 275lbs and 56. even a young light dude would have difficulty in this attic as you have to crawl over the supply box and some duct work while trying to find a place to put your foot. One could bring up plywood to fashion a walk way... but still have to replace the fluff over it. I am also concerned about cutting in from below because of the vapor barrier and the fluff falling through.










Seeing as how there are already wires coming from the switchbox, up the wall, to the florescent lights, I figured it would be easy enough to thread some 12 or 14 romex using the same holes, then pulling it to the location for the pendants. Easy peazy except for navigating the attic. Probably 30 minutes work. Lets say 90 minutes to take the time and do it right 3 hours for a novice. That should not cost $1000 (even for spacing the lights.)


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Guess you are not friends then with the neighbor who's running the Condo Association, or is it because you are going to DIY it? It's been a while since you asked for advice on placement for these pendants, so I assume it's not a rush. I say that, because of the other wiring you want to do, and maybe might think about doing in the future, where getting such regulated attic access would be allowed for a larger scope of work. So, maybe you hire an electrician and also update the cloud flourescent light to recessed cans and do all the wiring in the kitchen in one fell swoop.

Without attic access, it definitely is more difficult. The pendants will need old-work ceiling boxes rated for fixtures. Here's a Raco, electricians may have others to suggest. As far as drilling the top plates, you can access it with small holes in the drywall and patch later.

I would conceptualize the lighting as if you were designing from new. I don't know why a Dishwasher switch, never seen it done that way. But I would have pendants switched next to the sink. The under cab lighting switch would be next to the main ceiling light switch. Be aware that having under cab lights on the stove wall, but not next to the pantry cab wall will look unfinished. I would even think about uplights on top of the cabinets, with a crown moulding cornice. Then recessed cans. The hot for the new lights should not be pulling from the GFCI circuit. A sparky would have to advise if they can pull from the dishwasher/disposal circuit, if you can't get to the light circuit.

P.S. always fun to spend other people's money!


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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

3onthetree said:


> Guess you are not friends then with the neighbor who's running the Condo Association, or is it because you are going to DIY it? It's been a while since you asked for advice on placement for these pendants, so I assume it's not a rush.


Actually with Covid and other things I put the whole thing off until we can get the wiring planned. Once the tile is in, we will not be able to change the receptacles... So we at least need to decide which way we are going to do the electronics. The condo association does not want to give professional electricians access to the attic. It is not about me personally!



3onthetree said:


> ... update the cloud fluorescent light to recessed cans and do all the wiring in the kitchen in one fell swoop.


That is an interesting idea. They also have LED cans that require minimal work, but then again, recessed and vaulted ceilings... Lighting seems tricky to me and this would require a designer to get involved... Mucho $$$. I would hate to screw up the lighting even more as I would not know where to place them for the best effect.



3onthetree said:


> Without attic access, it definitely is more difficult. The pendants will need old-work ceiling boxes rated for fixtures. Here's a Raco, electricians may have others to suggest. As far as drilling the top plates, you can access it with small holes in the drywall and patch later.


I was hoping to get by with three pancake ceiling boxes mounted on the truss in line with the wall ... if that is possible. and just worry about the pendants.

The dishwasher and Disposal are both on designated circuits each... and are not allowed to have anything else on them. It would solve a lot of problems if could just tap on or the other. LED's dont consume that much power. Now I am thinking maybe I should just go wireless controller and use hidden outlets for power on the cabinet lights. Could move the dishwasher switch to under the sink and use the original on for the pendanats. If I pulled power for them from the disposal circuit... I might just get away with it. GF would prefer the disposal switch is not under the sink. Spec is to have it so you cannot put one hand in the disposal while turning it on.



3onthetree said:


> I would conceptualize the lighting as if you were designing from new. I don't know why a Dishwasher switch, never seen it done that way. But I would have pendants switched next to the sink.


Maybe it is to prevent flooding? But it is code here.



3onthetree said:


> I would even think about uplights on top of the cabinets, with a crown moulding cornice. Then recessed cans. The hot for the new lights should not be pulling from the GFCI circuit. A sparky would have to advise if they can pull from the dishwasher/disposal circuit, if you can't get to the light circuit.
> 
> P.S. always fun to spend other people's money!


Wholly crap! I Have the dining room, main room foyer and kitchen all sharing the same ceiling. (open design) to do that kind of crown work would require over $1K in moulding alone! I do not think it would look right to just do the kitchen. This picture is warped... (Wall lines are straight...) but the panorama shows some of what would have to be done to get the moulding in. (That one edge in the wall that terminates just before the apex... nightmare.)










*Thanks for the consideration put into your response and info to chew on!* Now looking at probably 20 times the $$$
Getting it all done at the same time is indeed a good idea. I* would be happy if I could just pick how many switches are needed so I can install the correct receptacles (maybe some romex) and have them ready for when we get the rest installed. The main goal was to get the backsplash in and move the tools and materials out to storage... *We can access them from the other side of the walls if necessary. Wireless controllers for the cabinet lighting and tapping into the light switch for power for the cabinetry side and using the microwave outlet and running wire along the top of the cabinet to the underside for the stove side seems favorable compared to the expenditure you are talking about. Could probably put a mount for the controller where the phone receptacle is. Then again not. Will have to sleep on it.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

wraiththe said:


> Now looking at probably 20 times the $$$


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to empty your wallet! I just noticed you have upgraded to granite, have nice cabinets, and are adding the pendants and undercabs so I'm just offering what else is out there that people typically do to kitchens, so if you are going to the trouble of drywall dust, clearing cabinets and stuff, might as well plan ahead for all possiblities and do it at once. So many threads on this site from DIYers doing things piecemeal because they didn't plan ahead and have to redo or tear into something again.



wraiththe said:


> The condo association does not want to give professional electricians access to the attic. It is not about me personally!


So the condo association not allowing you up in the multi-unit attic, I suppose has to do with you not actually owning the walls. You probably only own from paint-to-paint. The attic does have a rated ceiling and draftstopping, so make sure you don't alter anything existing and draftstop your penetrations.



wraiththe said:


> Lighting seems tricky to me and this would require a designer to get involved... Mucho $$$. I would hate to screw up the lighting even more as I would not know where to place them for the best effect.


Not necessarily, I see probably 5 cans in your kitchen. But I still have a couple houses from the 90s with the cloud fluorescents too, upgraded the tubes to LED.



wraiththe said:


> I was hoping to get by with three pancake ceiling boxes mounted on the truss in line with the wall ... if that is possible. and just worry about the pendants.


Lucky if your truss is right where your pendants will be (either pancake underneath or box mounted to side). That's why I suggested the retro-Raco if you need to span between two trusses. Pancakes could work, couple things though. You will need to have your hand up through the hole to move the insulation and catch the romex you're fishing, can't do that with a truss in the way of a small hole. Also the pancake boxes are limited for amount of fill, so depending on wiring layout that could be a negative.



wraiththe said:


> Could move the dishwasher switch to under the sink


AFAIK dishwashers need to be accessible to be unplugged, so a receptacle undersink and a direct-wired plug-in cord accomplishes that. A switch ganged with lights I'm not familiar with, seems odd to be able to accidentally turn it off mid-cycle.



wraiththe said:


> Wholly crap! I Have the dining room, main room foyer and kitchen all sharing the same ceiling. (open design) to do that kind of crown work would require over $1K in moulding alone!


I was just talking about cornice (via crown moulding) on the cabinets, a method to hide uplighting if you were to choose that in addition to the undercab lighting.












wraiththe said:


> I would be happy if I could just pick how many switches are needed so I can install the correct receptacles


It would be very easy to just tie in the pendants right there at the hot at the switch. But, I don't believe NEC allows a light to be attached to the small appliance circuit (and you mentioned backstabbing the GFCI - best practice is not to backstab any receptacles). Also some things to think about where the undercab transformer will plug in, and how you jump across the kitchen if you put some over there too.

So the best route is to pull out the switches and receptacles so you can see the wiring. You'll chart where the hot feeds come from, pass-throughs in the box, mark circuits, and that will lead you how/where your new switches and receptacles will either be placed as easiest to do or if you place them based on best layout and code.


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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

* Sincerely, I really appreciate what you have typed. I feel the same way about heading things off. My bathroom came out superb but with months of planning and reviewing over and over asking the right questions and I still had a few issues to deal with on the fly.

* Draftstopping... New word for me will keep this in mind. I really find it hard to believe they could prevent a hired professional from access. The attic is bizarre to me, which means nothing. I can see sunlight coming in off the apex, so there is some kind of vent. There is no division between my condo and the one behind me. There is also the matter of the fire sprinkler system. Certainly, want to avoid hitting that!

* The circuits are mapped, but I lost the sheet. May have to do it again. There are Two GFI SAC sets of outlets that are in the kitchen and one extends into the dining room (one powers the refrigerator. The lighting circuit covers kitchen and dining lights at least. Two Circuits Isolated, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Forget the specifics, I would need to dig up my diagram.

* Thanks for clarifying about the molding.. That would be cool! Another day, but not sure how to match the color... I have a few spots around the handles that are brightened and it looks like there is no way to fix it. If we every decide to paint them while... I would really consider doing that! The light bouncing off the ceiling would look nice.

* Not sure if the truss is a 2x8 2-x*8's or a lattice type in which case the 2x4 would be wide side down.
Apparently it is illegal to put a vapor barrier above the ceiling sheet rock??? One less thing to worry about, although i still worry about getting the proper filling back in before closing up.

* I think the dishwasher switch is 1) because the dishwasher is hardwired, 2) in case there is flooding, 3) a short. If memory serves right, by code, the disposal switch needs to be far enough from the disposal so that a young adult cannot have hand in the disposal when flipping the switch. (amazing.)

* You are correct, You are not supposed to connect any lights to an SAC. However what pisses me off is that I can just plug it in to the same circuit at the outlet.

Most likely the transformer will go in the corner cabinet on first shelf... however i could just stuff it in the corner gap behind the shelf.

I was talking to a retired electrician. Let's see if I can relate this clearly. The circuit panel is behind the pantry door at the end of the kitchen. The wall the panel is on is the back wall of a closet. The wall of that closet is against the pantry and continues to be the back wall of the kitchen (with the door.) For brevity: I could run romex from the breaker panel to the closet, to above the cabinet, above the switches, then in the wall to the main switches and back to the laundry room. Across the back wall of the laundry room to the wall the stove is on an through the wall over cabinets above the stove and to the wall the switches by the sink are. (I could run enough cable to do a variety of set ups including enough wire to run cabinet lights on both sides powered by one switch and the same for the pendants. 
Cost would be a lot less than 1K and I could probably run the cable myself... most of it. Then hire a bonded pro to wire it up at the ends so I do not get in trouble. 

Ceiling lights: I am seriously considering what you said about replacing the ceiling light. However, I am worried that the end result could be worse in terms of aesthetics. I see there are IC rated LED canned lights that you can set the temp on. some will also extend out and let you angle them and rotate 360 degrees. (COOL) They could all be fished from the location of the existing light... however I am not sure of the wiring pattern. 5 lights from two wires (2-6 wire splices) (and grounds) and would there need to be a junction box? Also, some of these look like they would be hard to remove when they fail. Hard like ripping out drywall if there is no attic access. Some anyway.



















Not a major expenditure to do it all at once and less expensive to have an electrician address it all at once...

3onthethree I really appreciate the help, if you were local, I could at least drop off a six pack of Guinness or something.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

wraiththe said:


> I can see sunlight coming in off the apex, so there is some kind of vent.


Ridge vent.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The kitchen and dining receptacle circuits cannot be used for lighting. You should also not tap into fixed in place appliance circuits.


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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

Jim Port said:


> The kitchen and dining receptacle circuits cannot be used for lighting. You should also not tap into fixed in place appliance circuits.


Painfully aware. Would have made life easier, but whoever said life was easy. Looks like there may be conduit in our future.


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## wraiththe (Sep 27, 2011)

Apparently you are not supposed to go in and out of the walls with romex... it is against code, even if you use wire mold???
Now I may just go though the walls and open up the closet wall behind the breaker and to the right side and where ever else needed to go from the breaker, to the switches, then back and around the kitchen back to the short wall at the front, then up to the lights and down to the cabinet lights. This way I can have a new circuit breaker for these lights?
Not sure if that is the best way to go.


















Dumb Idea? Will require some drywalling... Could be fugly if not done right.


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