# how to veneer brick porch piers with stone



## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

I'm considering veneering my front porch brick piers with stone. You will see in this post two photos. One of the house (which is a 1925 Sears Vallonia). And the second is what I hope the piers will look like. Most models of this house that I have seen have straight sided brick piers. I have seen very few with tapered piers. But there are a few out there. The original blueprints showed tapered piers. In fact 6 degrees from vertical. Incidentally during that time, Sears did not supply the foundation or brickwork. It was up to the owner to build that or contract it out. So they built them straight sided in my case. Anyway I have calculated that the piers will be 24 in square at the top (basically the same dimension as originally built) and 40 in. square at the bottom. So my first concern is does a footer have to be dug for the veneer portion. There is already a footer for the brick pier I'm pretty sure, but I haven't dug down there to examine it. if the stone veneer extends 8 inches out from the brick at the base on each side (by virtue of 6 deg. taper), will that portion need a footer? 
Thank you for any help. I also have a few other questions concerning the construction (maybe even deconstruction) of the piers.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

That seems like a lot of taper for the column. I know we did a bunch of tapered stone columns on 2 different homes a few years ago, and you could literaly climb the 6 degree stone columns if you wanted. I'd suggest a more subtle taper, like -4 degrees if I were you. It will still be obvious, and will look more like the picture you posted.


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. I am looking into the 6 deg taper and will get back to this thread on what I find. You have a good point, thanks. However, I must add that I'm in favor of the ORIGINAL BLUPRINTS from 1925 that I have in my possession.... "Period Correctness".
I have photos of a couple examples with tapered piers. which I will post shortly. I must point out that I opened the files of the original blueprints in AutoCAD and struck/snapped a line along the original profile of the tapered column and found it to be 6 degrees, plus or minus a VERY SMALL amount, I figure.


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

QWefD


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

A 6° taper 48" tall would mean the bottom was offset 5" from the top how tall is the total height of the columns you want to taper?


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## Tscarborough (Mar 31, 2006)

Do you want to do it right, or just make it look right (for a while)?


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. I would like to do it right if I can. The piers are 6 ft. to the underside of the cap (the brick portion that you see). Which means the base would be approx 40", given the top 24" on a side. The columns are hollow, square 24 in. on a side; in probing the inside there appears to be nothing inside, simply straight walls of a single brick's depth. Meaning it's roughly about 17" square (or so, hard to tell exactly) inside of empty space. I suppose I could tear the entire piers down and rebuild the walls with stone. I would like to use natural stone veneer that has depth of 3.5" - 4" or so, like the brick is now. Question then is how to properly build the pier as in the example picture I posted? That particular stone pier is made with natural stone veneers from Van Ness Stone which is a local supplier here. It seems to me the footing for the existing piers are OK - they have stood for 90 years! The porch roof is not sagging or anything. I have been all over the underside and even crawled inside the porch roof - everything seems very good, especially considering standing 90 years. The mortar in the brickwork is not showing any signs of cracking, falling out or pier shifting. Given that, many would just keep the brick but I'm in favor of the look of the stone, which is fairly rare around here. I've only seen a few examples. But I want to study and learn about the task such that if I do decide to do it, I will know how it has to be done in order for it to hopefully last another 60+ years or so. Thanks again everyone.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

If you want to do it right, you need to dig to the bottom of the existing footings, extend them out at least 4" farther than you need for block (sounds like at least 48" at the footing), dowel into the existing footing with a few rebar, and block the new wider brickledge up to the bottom of the veneer. The stone starts at this point, generally a few inches below grade.

Not sure if the wood posts are bearing on caps right now, but if they are, you'll need to support the roof temporarily. This is nothing to take lightly.

Also, it's best to make a wood template at the top of the pier, set a nail in each corner, and extend a taught line down at each corner to keep them straight while laying. Making the corners straight with stone like that generally requires a lot of chiseling and skill, especially hard with granite stone.......


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

Is there a use for a concrete block column inside? I thought about if one were to build a column inside (the now hollow space) with either regular sized block 8 x 15 1/2 (or if it won't fit, 8x8 half block) extending from the footing all the way up, where the cap will then being able to bear on it; it would take up a good portion of the forces exerting on the stone veneer.

The wooden posts DO bear on the cap. I plan to support the porch roof with four steel jack posts at the corner (well, actually about 2 feet back from the corner in each direction so they don't interfere with working on the masonry pier). Doing one corner of the porch at a time; maybe even one corner per year! LOL.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I would definately use concrete block inside, along with galvanized wall ties sticking out from the joints. You can even use 6" or even 4" wide block if it's easier. Obviously, you'll want to taper the block back-up as well. Also, make sure you leave enough room for the stone, most take at least 5" without some major alterring, where brick can generally fit in 4" space........


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

Many thanks for your reply! What do you do with the space between the interior concrete block column and the stone? Just use the metal wall ties at the joints? I'm pretty sure one is not supposed to mortar the backs of the stone directly to the cinder block. But the gap there concerns me - should I be concerned about it? From what I've seen already this stone is roughly about 3-3/4 deep just like bricks,up to maybe 4-1/2 inches; I have seen brick over concrete block in new construction (shopping malls and the like) where there is a gap, but with metal ties though. I always thought "Isn't the wall weak with that gap in there? It's almost a single thickness wall with another wall set back from it!" Of course it's not like someone is going to crash their car into the wall at 40 mph. Still, I was always skeptical about that method. But then I don't know. I'm an electrician (with a smattering of couple other trades) and not a mason. Pretty good with my hands all around. So when I figure out how this is supposed to be done, I think I can do it. So then it will not be possible to make the concrete block taper at 6 deg. unless each is only 4 thick and 4 inches deep, so do you just do the best you can with existing block sizes and the gap will be larger in some places than in others? Does it matter how big the gap can be? My original thought was just to use a straight sided column, because that's the simplest.
Thanks again.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

An airspace between the two is actually advantageous for drainage, but with stone, you'll likely still get a few areas where there's mortar touching the block. The wall ties alone are enough support for the stone.


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## pcshay (Jun 15, 2014)

I discovered that I may be able to half height block either 4" or 6" tall build a central tapered column behind the stone. So would one fill the hollow cores of the concrete block with concrete and place rebar? 

Also the bottom 9 or so courses of existing brick do not need to be torn down all the way down to the footer. These would end up being inside the tapered stone pier anyway. Is there a way I can use these structurally to advantage? Like tying the stone to these? If so how do you metal tie the stone joints to an already exsiting brick joints? Thanks for any help!


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