# A few roof questions before I begin...



## chrisexv6 (Feb 11, 2006)

*A few roof questions before I begin (a couple questions added)...*

My shed is in need of some roof fixing. It was a pre-built shed with a gambrel-style roof and so far I know there was no paper laid before the shingles (might be fine if it wasnt standing in our area [northeast us]). 

The problem spots are where the more extreme slope of the gambrel (mansard ?) meets the top caps of the walls at each corner. Im getting black areas that seem to be rotting out and somehow taking on water. After reading around this and other roofing forums, my guess is that the drip edge they installed is OK, but they didnt run the shingles past it (in fact, the shingles end BEFORE the edge of the drip edge). I figure this is just a great passageway for water to get under the shingles and roll down the roof, ending up in each corner and rotting out the wood. So far its not HORRIBLE, but its not looking great either (and this is only what I can see from the inside....Im sure its worse under the shingles)

Im definitely going to re-roof it. I have a few questions:

1. Its been suggested to use flashing where the mansard slope meets the normal slope (not the peak, but the second peak about halfway down each side of the roof). Not a problem to do it, but do i want this flashing over or under the paper? And as I read more, is this some sort of flashing that will be EXTERIOR to the shingles? If so, what type of flashing should I use?

2. Drip edge all around, of course. Question is: what do i do where the different drip edges and flashings meet? Tuck one under the other? Butt joint? Since there are no gutters am I using the same drip edge all around both the gable and fascia ends? How do you bend the drip edge at the mansard/roof slope? Relief cut? Do you use separate pieces (I wouldnt think so, as it could lead to a leak)

3. Ill be using architectural shingles to match my house....I know a starter strip is created by taking a shingle and cutting off the nailing tabs. How do you do this for an architectural? Since the shingle is so "dimensional" this would lead to a wavy starter strip, no? Do I have to get 3 tab shingles in the same color to do this?

4. Where the wood is rotted out, can I patch it by cutting back to good wood and replacing with new ply? Or should I just replace the complete sheet of ply? When replacing, should I use pressure treated or is it not worth it?

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to get them out of the way in one shot 

Thanks in advance.

-Chris


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

1. Its been suggested to use flashing where the mansard slope meets the normal slope (not the peak, but the second peak about halfway down each side of the roof). Not a problem to do it, but do i want this flashing over or under the paper? And as I read more, is this some sort of flashing that will be EXTERIOR to the shingles? If so, what type of flashing should I use?

I would use I&WS to wrap this transition before shingling. If metal flashing is used (my recommendation), then it should go under the paper at the top and over the shingles at the bottom. I'm in the copper business, so naturally I'll suggest copper as the material. 

2. Drip edge all around, of course. Question is: what do i do where the different drip edges and flashings meet? Tuck one under the other? Butt joint? Since there are no gutters am I using the same drip edge all around both the gable and fascia ends? How do you bend the drip edge at the mansard/roof slope? Relief cut? Do you use separate pieces (I wouldnt think so, as it could lead to a leak)

If you use the transition flashing described above, then there's no need for drip edge at the bottom of the upper plane. Relief cut the face flange of the drip edge and bend the roof flange through the pitch change.

3. Ill be using architectural shingles to match my house....I know a starter strip is created by taking a shingle and cutting off the nailing tabs. How do you do this for an architectural? Since the shingle is so "dimensional" this would lead to a wavy starter strip, no? Do I have to get 3 tab shingles in the same color to do this?

Buy a bundle of starter strips. Less work and expense.

4. Where the wood is rotted out, can I patch it by cutting back to good wood and replacing with new ply? Or should I just replace the complete sheet of ply? When replacing, should I use pressure treated or is it not worth it?

You can cut back and patch. If you are removing over half of a sheet,I'd replace the whole sheet. PT is for ground/masonry contact or exterior use. Roof right and the wood won't get wet again.

Good luck and have fun.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

chrisexv6 said:


> My shed is in need of some roof fixing. It was a pre-built shed with a gambrel-style roof and so far I know there was no paper laid before the shingles (might be fine if it wasnt standing in our area [northeast us]).
> 
> The problem spots are where the more extreme slope of the gambrel (mansard ?) meets the top caps of the walls at each corner. Im getting black areas that seem to be rotting out and somehow taking on water. After reading around this and other roofing forums, my guess is that the drip edge they installed is OK, but they didnt run the shingles past it (in fact, the shingles end BEFORE the edge of the drip edge). I figure this is just a great passageway for water to get under the shingles and roll down the roof, ending up in each corner and rotting out the wood. So far its not HORRIBLE, but its not looking great either (and this is only what I can see from the inside....Im sure its worse under the shingles)
> 
> ...


Remove existing shingles, felt if there is any, drip edge, etc.

Cut the roof sheathing out to a point in which you have removed any rotted lumber, make sure you cut it to end on a stud, and replace 'treated is not needed'.

Install new drip edge across the bottom,
than install felt paper, stopping it at the break point where it goe's from mansard to lower slope.
Install drip edge up the sides, the nailer 'portion on roof' and the face 'portion on facial' should extend past the break point a little, 1/4" to 1/2".
Run your starter course across the bottom from side to side, than run the starter strips up the sides stopping at the break point, not short of it, not just past it, at it. 
(3-tab shingles will work, you cut the tab portion of the 3-tab off and use the portion that has the sealer strip on it for the starter),

Install your shingles in a step off pattern "it's shown on the bundle wrapper" and continue up toward the break point until you come to a point that the top of a shingle surpasses that break point, you want the exposed portion of the shingle to be with in 5" of the break point, closer is ok, further is not.
Than with that shingles top folding over the break point you add a piece of flat stock aluminum, it should be roughly 6" wide and be bent at the correct angle to allow 3" to lay on each side "lower and upper".

The lower section is now complete and water tight.
Now you install felt paper across the top 'lower slope' portion,
than drip edge on each side,
than starter strips on just the sides,
than start installing your shingles with the the first course starting at the notches/placement line of the shingle you stopped with on the steeper slope portion, that shingle will 'roll' over the break point and be fastened only on the top portion.
(you will need to fasten the lower portion of the shingle that rolls down onto the steeper slope section, but do not do that until the end, letting nature pull it down into place prior to fastening it.)
You will continue running your shingles up to the main ridge until the shingle rolls over and the exposed portion of the shingle is with in 3" of the ridge, at that point if you have ridge vent than cut the tops of the shingles off, if you don't than you can let them roll over and stay.

Good Luck.


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## chrisexv6 (Feb 11, 2006)

First off I need to say thanks for the great replies. They help A LOT!

I just got back from HD and Lowes (I know, I know!!) looking at the flashings, etc. I notice HD refers to a "roof apron" flashing for roofs without gutters, it looks like a regular drip edge but its angled on the drip-leg portion. Of course HD being HD, they dont actually stock it. Is this something I should use on the eave edges? Or can I get away with what Lowes (I know, I know) says should work (which is just normal drip edge)? 

Im not sure if there are any local roof supply stores around here will sell small invoice stuff (the few pieces of drip edge and bent aluminum flashing that I need).

Any suggestions would be appreciated. And again, thanks for the help thus far.

EDIT: BTW, my local HD had 4 square rolls of ShingleMate underlayment on clearance for 12 bux. Im not sure if its the best underlayment to use, just relaying the message (I bought a roll to use on my shed, hopefully its not that bad a product)

-Chris


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## chrisexv6 (Feb 11, 2006)

I just pulled half of the shingles off and found that the rake boards on each end are rotted out. No felt under the shingles so the drip edge was installed directly onto the rake boards. The boards are just 2x4s laid down but the drip edge that was used didnt go past the seam between the rake boards and roof decking.

Question is....should I get drip edge thats "deep" enough to go past that seam and completely cover the rake board (the rake boards will be replaced, of course)? 

Thanks in advance.

-Chris


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## chrisexv6 (Feb 11, 2006)

Knee deep into the project, Im about to put on drip edge and underlayment and finally shingles.

A few questions popped up:

1. I was going to use felt, but looking at the gaps between the mansard and low slope roof portion, along with the patches I made in the plywood, it makes me wonder if I should use ice and water barrier. Then the question is, over the whole roof just to be sure? Only over the gaps? Id tend to say over the whole roof, but the only worry I have at that point is heat buildup (the shed currently has two small gable vents). What do the pros suggest?

2. The flashing between low and steep slope.....how long should I run it? Outer edge of rake board to outer edge of rake board? Just past the roof decking (but not to the outer edge of the rake board)? Is it OK to nail this flashing down thru the ice and water barrier? Once the shingles are over the flashing, how do I fasten them to the shingles on the steeper slope? Face nail or adhesive?

3. Last one! The Timerline shingles are speced at full first shingle on 1st course, 6" off first on 2nd course, 11" off on 3rd course, etc. Problem is with the length of my shed on the first course Ill end up with a 5" piece of shingle at the end. Didnt think that was enough, so....can I turn it into a 5-6-5-6 pattern, intead of a 0-5-6-5 pattern? That would make the smallest "sliver" 10" on the far end which I think is a lot better.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

chrisexv6 said:


> Knee deep into the project, Im about to put on drip edge and underlayment and finally shingles.
> 
> A few questions popped up:
> 
> ...


1)The I&WS won't cause any heat build up, but I can't imagine any necessity to use it as you describe. Won't hurt anything except your wallet. 

2) Outside of rake to outside of rake. Install the steep slope shingles. Install the metal flashing so it covers the nail strip on the top course by nailing through the metal, through the I&WS. I'd then seal the top of the flashing with a strip of I&WS, especially if you're in heavy snow country. Then install the shallower slope shingles covering the top flange of the flashing. No nails will be exposed. 

3)You can do what you propose with the stagger, but it might show an undesirable pattern (that 9 out of 10 people won't ever notice). Stretch the manufacturer's pattern out a little so that there's one less course and the shortest piece is 8"-10" long.


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