# Changing all outlets, what do I buy?



## oilseal (Aug 24, 2009)

Regardless of the brand, I've opted for the more expensive devices when replacing; they conform to commercial or industrial specifications. They are cheaper in the long run. They are made beefier and some are back-wired using screws to hold the connection, not backstabbed.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You are required to buy the Tamper proof under NEC 2008
I also opt for the heavier duty outlets
I actually bought some 20a outlets for my house just in case
I've never had any item that needed a 20a plug

Switches I have just bought the normal switches

I have just about all Leviton
GFCI's I like the ones with the little LED light to let you know if there is power or tripped
I bought true 20a GFCI's since the bathroom gets heavy use from my wife's hair dryer

Kitchen the outlets only have to be GFCI protected
So this will depend upon your wiring
Replacing the 1st outlet in the line & connecting the rest to the LOAD side will meet code


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I use the 39-49 cent ones. If I have a certain receptacle that gets plugged and unplugged alot I might go to the $2.00 one there only. If you think about it. How much do you unplug and plug stuff in? Switches get used much more. But I still get the El-Cheapos.


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## reno 101 (Oct 3, 2009)

I have used both brands and for a home owner you do not need a spec grade device. Changing your GFI's to 20 amp does not give you more power, your breaker is only going to be 15amp, if you change your wire size from 14 to 12 then you can up your breaker size. Your recept. within 5' of your kitchen sink should be changed to GFI's, yes it is code, for new constuction you run 12/2. Now would I change my split recept. in my kitchen to a gfi, I would not.


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## Mike2181 (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Since the requirement for TP I haven't seen any .39-.49 outlets any more
Cheapest I think might be $1.19-1.49
The 20a GFCI's were actually less via the Internet then anything local


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## JonboyAU (Sep 28, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Since the requirement for TP I haven't seen any .39-.49 outlets any more
> Cheapest I think might be $1.19-1.49
> The 20a GFCI's were actually less via the Internet then anything local


The 2008 NEC is adopted on a state by state basis. New Jersey adopted the code effective 4/09 (original poster's state) but some states will not adopt until 2011. So, tamper resistant receptacles are not yet required in every state.


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## JonboyAU (Sep 28, 2009)

oilseal said:


> Regardless of the brand, I've opted for the more expensive devices when replacing; they conform to commercial or industrial specifications. They are cheaper in the long run. They are made beefier and some are back-wired using screws to hold the connection, not backstabbed.


There are three types of connection used with wiring devices and not all devices incorporate all these types. Quick-wire or push-wire is available on some devices for use with #14 wire- to use you would strip the wire (solid only) to the proper length and push it into the back of the device where it would be held in place. A number of years ago this type of termination was also used with #12 wire until UL changed their requirements for listing these devices. Any device currently manufactured must allow only #14 wire or it is not UL listed. I am unaware of any manufacturer making any devices allowing #12 wire to be used currently. This connection is normally used in residential applications.

Side wire is when the installer utilizes the screw terminals on the side of the device and wraps the wire (solid or stranded) around the screw and tightens it down. This is normally used in residential and commercial applications.

Back-wire is when an installer inserts the wire between a clamp or two clamps or plates on the back of the device and then tightens the screw terminal causing the plates to come together and trap the wire between them. This is not generally found on lower priced devices (read residential) except for GFCIs. It is the preferred way to terminate a device if it is available.

It is fine to put a higher grade device in a residential application, though it is often overkill. Industrial grade or hospital grade receptacles are quite expensive and quite hard to insert a plug into- they meet certain specs with regard to blade retention and other considerations. A good residential grade receptacle (or in some cases a commercial grade) will probably outlast the home owner.

I only quoted you, oilseal, to elaborate on what you were saying a little bit as I have seen some confusion in some of the posts on here with regard to types of termination and grades of devices. I do not at all disagree with what you say. :thumbsup:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

The majority of states have adopted NEC 2008
Some states hav eadopted part but not all
Local codes canvary, so you always need to check with your loac Inspector

http://www.childoutletsafety.org/files/NECAdoptionMap.pdf


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## HandyPete (Mar 23, 2008)

I have a hard time buying "cheapo" stuff for my home.

First, I just hate the way it feels and acts when I install the stuff;

second, I love the touch and sound of a quality switch;

third, reliability and safety are always important to me

and lastly, I love spending the extra money to encourage companies to make better products.

_pete

oh..and I forgot to mention that houses that are worth over 100 grand deserve something better than "cheapo" materials. :thumbsup:


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## oilseal (Aug 24, 2009)

Pete: You are quite right. I wonder how they get away with offering such El Cheapo devices -- they are no bargain. Don't you hate it when the cord plug almost drops out. Just from that standpoint, they can present a hazard.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I bought true 20a GFCI's since the bathroom gets heavy use from my wife's hair dryer


The only difference in the 15 and 20 amp devices are the shape of the slots. The 15 amp GFI is still rated for 20 amp feed thru.



reno 101 said:


> Your recept. within 5' of your kitchen sink should be changed to GFI's, yes it is code, .


The NEC requirement for GFI protection is for all the receptacles serving the countertop area, not just the ones within 5' of the sink.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Jim Port said:


> The only difference in the 15 and 20 amp devices are the shape of the slots. The 15 amp GFI is still rated for 20 amp feed thru.





Scuba_Dave said:


> The 20a GFCI's were actually less via the Internet then anything local


I prefer to buy the less expensive 20a :wink:


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Since the requirement for TP I haven't seen any .39-.49 outlets any more
> Cheapest I think might be $1.19-1.49
> The 20a GFCI's were actually less via the Internet then anything local


Dave, You mean I can't get my El-Cheapos anymore?  To be honest I have not purchased a receptacle or switch in quite a while. :thumbup: Whats the deal? Thanks John


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah I was surpised as I have not bought a switch in a while
I bought about 40 20a outlets for my construction
But with the new NEC 2008 requiring Tamper Proof (TP) & Weather Resistant/Proof (not sure which) prices went up

They may still have some inexpensive switches
But last I checked the outlets were up around $1.19-1.89
I think once production fully changes over to the new TP then prices may drop again
They still have the old stock on the shelves...not as much
So they are still available for now...not sure the prices on old stock

GFCI's went up a lot, used to be $3 in bulk...now I think over $10 ?
I'm all for the Tamper proof, I may have been "grandfarthered" since my permit was issued before 2008
But I'd rather have the TP then my wife sticking all those child proof caps over all the outlets


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## JonboyAU (Sep 28, 2009)

GFCI's were were always a good bit higher than $3 if you bought those made by reputable manufacturers. The cheapo Chinese imports were doing fun stuff like not putting in the proper electronic components or just putting a fake UL label on altogether. If you have a problem with them then try and go find them.
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_safety_alert_gfcis/
http://onwatergarden.com/others/cgfirecall.htm

I am not saying that all GFCIs made in China are bad- that could hardly be the case since nearly all GFCIs sold in the US are made in China. You just have to watch what brand you choose.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I did buy reputable brands, & they were selling for $3 in bulk - for as little as 6 outlets

Unless you are saying Leviton is bad brand ??

I bought 15-20 at a time


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## JonboyAU (Sep 28, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I did buy reputable brands, & they were selling for $3 in bulk - for as little as 6 outlets
> 
> Unless you are saying Leviton is bad brand ??
> 
> I bought 15-20 at a time


How long ago was that? Prior to revised UL standard 943? I will keep my opinion on Leviton to myself, but I certainly wouldn't term it a bad brand.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Since the requirement for TP I haven't seen any .39-.49 outlets any more
> Cheapest I think might be $1.19-1.49
> The 20a GFCI's were actually less via the Internet then anything local


What about shipping/handling charges?! I prefer buying local. Unless you purchase in bulk! (No matter what) :yes::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
p.s.: If someone gets a royalty for (other people) using smilies, I think that person (author) (probably) qualifies for an overseas vacation!!!


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## mikey48 (Dec 6, 2007)

I would think TP would only be required for new construction or rewire, not for replacement.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Nope, you replace something you are usually required to put a device in that meets current code

Shipping was free on the GFCI's
They were bought before the current TP/WP NEC 2008 requirements


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

mikey48 said:


> I would think TP would only be required for new construction or rewire, not for replacement.


I think mikey's got a point. Why must I use TP recepts for replacements? The ones I have know are compliant. I am bustin balls, but he does have a good point and I think it requires further discussion. :yes:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Well, stretching that point if you replace a toilet you have to use a newer 1.6g water saver, not supposed to use an old 5g model
BUt with the cost of water & sewer these days I think most would not want a 5g toilet

So if a breaker failed would you also say that an AFCI would not be required if serving a bedroom?
If an older outlet is being replaced in a bathroom a GFCI is not needed as a replacement?

From a strict standpoint some say that replacing any device requires a permit & inspection
So that would require meeting today's code on that device
I wonder if eventually non-TP devices will be hard to find or rise in price due to reduced quantity being produced

With a kid in the house I prefer the TP devices
We may not all like meeting current code, but I think it would be required


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Well, stretching that point if you replace a toilet you have to use a newer 1.6g water saver, not supposed to use an old 5g model
> BUt with the cost of water & sewer these days I think most would not want a 5g toilet
> 
> So if a breaker failed would you also say that an AFCI would not be required if serving a bedroom?
> ...


I think there's a stipulation to the requirement of Tamper resistant outlets in new construction. Where children under a certain age will be part of the residents in that dwelling. But in new construction your prospective (future) owners might have children of a certain (required) age. Whereas, with the current owner ONLY replacing (a/o major rewiring) the requirement does not apply!!! (No matter what) :yes::no::drink:don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

spark plug said:


> I think there's a stipulation to the requirement of Tamper resistant outlets in new construction. Where children under a certain age will be part of the residents in that dwelling. But in new construction your prospective (future) owners might have children of a certain (required) age. Whereas, with the current owner ONLY replacing (a/o major rewiring) the requirement does not apply!!! (No matter what) :yes::no::drink:don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


I've never heard of any stipulation in the NEC regarding this being aimed at only houses that will/might have children
Local codes can vary & some states may have changed the way they accepted that part of the code



> *406.11 — TAMPER-RESISTANT RECEPTACLES IN DWELLING UNITS*
> Requirements for tamper-resistant receptacles were added to the 2008 NEC.
> *In dwelling units, all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles shall be listed as tamper resistant.*
> 
> _This new section requires the use of listed tamper-resistant receptacles for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed in dwelling units._


Note - says areas specified in 210.52

Right you do not need to replace working outlets
But what happens when an outlet fails?
Or if you want to add an outlet?
You can't be saying that existing houses never have to install the newer outlets VS an older outlet?


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## KAdams4458 (Jan 29, 2006)

The way I see it, and that is has been explained to me, is that the old receptacles will be sort of grandfathered in. 

Example 1: You have an old house with no TR receptacles. You need to replace one due to wear, damage, or maybe you just don't want almond receptacles any more. No wiring changes are being made and no circuits are being added, so you do not need to use TR receptacles.

Example 2: You want to add a new receptacle to an older house where one previously did not exist. You're either tapping in to and adding to an existing circuit, or running an entirely new one, but everything you install will need to meet current code. In this case, you would need to use a TR receptacle anywhere you put the new one(s). 

It's like when you have a house wired without grounded receptacles and need to replace one. Code does not force you to rewire and provide a ground. You can either replace the receptacle with an ol' two prong, or use a GFCI with a visible_ no equipment ground_ label.

Of course, as is always the case, your inspector or the AHJ will have the last word, so I could just argue that this point isn't even worth arguing. :laughing:

I personally believe these TR receptacles are a big mistake. You know there are those folks that will tamper with these things like they do with every other tamper-resistant device on the planet. That may actually make them more dangerous in the end. How many people do you think are going to try to use a screwdriver on these things to defeat the tamper resistant covers? I tell you, these things might just dare people to be stupid.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Changing all outlets, what do I buy?


Smoke deteectors and insurance *:whistling2:*


And pay attention so you don't have to come back and ask how to wire a 3 way switch and a 1/2 switched receptacle


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Ka Adams4458 (poster #27)
In your last paragraph you state that "People" i.e. adults will defeat them, anyway. The purpose of this new regulation in the 2008 NEC is not against adults who have no brains. It is meant to protect children who explore their world and in the process tend to stick all kinds of objects in outlets. (No matter what):furious::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

KAdams4458 said:


> The way I see it, and that is has been explained to me, is that the old receptacles will be sort of grandfathered in.


You must be reading hidden text in the NEC 2008 code
I see nothing about grandfathering existing installations, any more then not needing GFCI or AFCI when replacing outlets where needed

All new code applies to new construction
But, existing installations are not exempt when replacing outlets

And Yes - the Tamper proof requirement is geared towards protecting kids
Something must be inserted into both prongs to open them, not just one
I'm sure some curious kids may be able to bypass this



> Approximately 2,400 children receive emergency room treatment every year for injuries caused
> by inserting objects into electrical receptacles, according to U.S. Consumer Product Safety​
> Commission (CPSC) data. This equates to
> _about seven children each day_. Injuries range from
> ...


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