# 1993 Toyota Pervia van went kerflooey



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

In other words the number two cylinder needs a valve job. No compression.

Bummer!

I’ve heard varying reports about the efficacy of valve jobs engine replacement etc.

There’s always the option of getting another vehicle, perhaps even an Astro Van.
Thoughts?


----------



## Joeywhat (Apr 18, 2020)

For a car that old any sort of engine work will cost much more than the value of the vehicle.

Donate or scrap it and by something different.


----------



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Time to put it out to pasture. it has had a good life.


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

Mooo


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Look for a local College, that has an automotive repair course, approach the professor with a deal, you will supply the vehicle that needs repaired, and buy the required parts, they will provide the labor, and training to said laborer .

You win, the student wins, the College wins.

All are happy.

While you wait for the repair, buy a temporary replacement vehicle, then after you get the van back, sell whichever one you do not want to keep.

Or donate the van to the College, they will fix it, and either use it, or sell it.

If donating , you get a TAX WRITEOFF. 

ED


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

Another one bites the dust.
My brother taught at a school that had an automotive program. They were a GM and Toyota training center. Both manufacturers donated cars, especially when a hurricane broke windows and got interiors wet. Schools don’t want to teach with 27 year old cars, that isn’t even OBD2.They teach with current cars so the students can get dealership jobs.
If I had your money I would have a different color new car for every day of the week!


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

If the car is in otherwise decent shape and you have the time and inclination pull the heads yourself and take 'em to a machine shop. That makes a valve job very affordable. Although that might be a bear of a job on a Previa. I have never worked on one of those.


----------



## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Could be a busted piston or ring, won't know until you tear into it. I personally like some of the older cars and trucks they seem to be built better...sometimes.


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

Old Thomas said:


> Another one bites the dust.
> My brother taught at a school that had an automotive program. They were a GM and Toyota training center. Both manufacturers donated cars, especially when a hurricane broke windows and got interiors wet. Schools don’t want to teach with 27 year old cars, that isn’t even OBD2.They teach with current cars so the students can get dealership jobs.
> If I had your money I would have a different color new car for every day of the week!


Yeah, good point.

"[My] money"? Seriously?


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Old Thomas said:


> Another one bites the dust.
> 
> 
> Schools don’t want to teach with 27 year old cars, that isn’t even OBD2.They teach with current cars so the students can get dealership jobs.


 Therein lies the reason that I will not take a repair to a Dealership.

The techs know nothing about REAL repairs.

All they know is " Parts Changer" , as told by the computer. 

Not a very good training they get then.


ED


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

BigJim said:


> Could be a busted piston or ring, won't know until you tear into it. I personally like some of the older cars and trucks they seem to be built better...sometimes.


Yeah, I'm not tearing into anything. My days of fiddling with engines are over. Arthritis in the hands, and not enough time on my hands. 

But, I'm definitely going to get another older vehicle to replace it with.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I don't know what the money situation is but you could save yourself a lot of grief if you got a new or lightly used Honda or somesuch. We'd miss your posts in this forum about these relics but your life would be so much easier. Trust me.




DoomsDave said:


> Yeah, I'm not tearing into anything. My days of fiddling with engines are over. Arthritis in the hands, and not enough time on my hands.
> 
> But, I'm definitely going to get another older vehicle to replace it with.


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

raylo32 said:


> I don't know what the money situation is but you could save yourself a lot of grief if you got a new or lightly used Honda or somesuch. We'd miss your posts in this forum about these relics but your life would be so much easier. Trust me.


Hmm.

I'm gravely skeptical as to the benefits of new vehicles. My experiences and observations over about four decades are that the only thing really guaranteed by a newer vehicle is a higher price tag, combined, often, with interest and "comprehensive" insurance payments to protect others.


----------



## Joeywhat (Apr 18, 2020)

de-nagorg said:


> Therein lies the reason that I will not take a repair to a Dealership.
> 
> The techs know nothing about REAL repairs.
> 
> ...


It costs the dealer significantly more to tear into an engine and fix whatever might be wrong (let's face it, no one knows the real damage until it's all apart) then it does to just swap in a long or short block depending on the diagnosis. It's less work (they don't have to pay for as many master technicians), and nobody wants their car in the shop for 2 week so the engine can be rebuilt. You can swap in the new block in a day, and maybe another day to make sure the various electronics are all still working together and that it actually runs right.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

You shouldn't be. New cars are really better than ever and need far less routine maintenance than older models. Maybe not as easy to work on but then you won't need to work on them. Get a newish Honda, Toyota, or even some others and it is likely that all you will need to do is put gas in and change the oil for many many years. Then maybe tires and brakes. It almost gets boring and you end up losing some mechanic skills. Of course there are exceptions.... and the vehicle's history and maintenance matter. Take my 2009 Toyota Tacoma that I bought new. Other than aftermarket stereos and such the first real work I needed to do on it other than routine maintenance was at ~ 12 years and 100,000 miles when the trans cooler line rusted (really a function of this area not the vehicle) and a failed O2 sensor. Still runs like the day I bought it.



DoomsDave said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I'm gravely skeptical as to the benefits of new vehicles. My experiences and observations over about four decades are that the only thing really guaranteed by a newer vehicle is a higher price tag, combined, often, with interest and "comprehensive" insurance payments to protect others.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

I have an Impala that presented what seems to be similar symptoms - one cylinder with zero compression, but others are ok(?). It had a broken valve spring. Fixed it for under $50, and all I had to remove to get to it and replace it, was the valve cover (getting the valve cover off of mine required removing several other parts, but that's not typical). A few bucks and a few hours, and it's been running like a champ for 4 years since.

Sounds like you aren't into working on it, but it might be worth having someone pull the valve cover to check whether that's the problem. It's a cheap fix, even if you have someone do it, if that's the problem.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Maybe do a quick check to make sure you don't have an interference engine before pulling the valve cover to look at this. If it is, and you dropped a valve, you're already done for sure. BTW, which engine does your Previa have? The wiki shows that it is likely the 2TZ-FE. I haven't found info as to whether it is interference or not. Even in non-interference engines broken valve springs can drop a valve far enough to destroy a piston. Kind of depends on how and where the spring breaks and if it holds the valve up a little, or not. Believe it or not Chevrolet has a major problem with this on new C8 Corvettes. They got some bad springs from a supplier. Sometimes the valve stays up enough to be OK, but often not. There are guys with brand new $100k Corvettes getting new engines after such a failure in a few hundred miles.

Toyota Previa - Wikipedia




HotRodx10 said:


> I have an Impala that presented what seems to be similar symptoms - one cylinder with zero compression, but others are ok(?). It had a broken valve spring. Fixed it for under $50, and all I had to remove to get to it and replace it, was the valve cover (getting the valve cover off of mine required removing several other parts, but that's not typical). A few bucks and a few hours, and it's been running like a champ for 4 years since.
> 
> Sounds like you aren't into working on it, but it might be worth having someone pull the valve cover to check whether that's the problem. It's a cheap fix, even if you have someone do it, if that's the problem.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

raylo32 said:


> Maybe do a quick check to make sure you don't have an interference engine before pulling the valve cover to look at this. If it is, and you dropped a valve, you're already done for sure. BTW, which engine does your Previa have? The wiki shows that it is likely the 2TZ-FE. I haven't found info as to whether it is interference or not.
> 
> Toyota Previa - Wikipedia


That's why you pressurize the cylinder with an air compressor before removing the valve spring, and keep it pressurized until the new one is in place. That's what I did.

A broken valve spring doesn't usually drop the valve. Mine is an interference engine, and the valve was fine.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Oh for sure. Another trick is to turn the motor by hand to get that piston to TDC to keep the valve up whilst replacing the spring and/or seals. Just saying if a spring broken such that one of the valves fell all the way and he already ran it like that... =:O And they can and do fall far enough to damage pistons, interference or not. See my post above or google for C8 Corvette valve spring failures.



HotRodx10 said:


> That's why you pressurize the cylinder with an air compressor before removing the valve spring, and keep it pressurized until the new one is in place. That's what I did.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

raylo32 said:


> Oh for sure. Another trick is to turn the motor by hand to get that piston to TDC to keep the valve up whilst replacing the spring and/or seals. Just saying if it's broken and fell all the way and he already ran it like that... =:O


Pressurizing the cylinder is much more effective, as it keeps the valve all the way up in the closed position, making it easier to get the new spring on.

Yeah, could be, but mine didn't really "break"; more like it bent a little; 2 of the coils were laying together. It wasn't in the fully open position; it jut didn't close all the way. from what I understand, that is the typical failure mode for a valve spring. All that to say, even on an interference engine, it's unlikely a bad valve spring would drop the valve enough for it to get bent.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I've done it by rotating the engine... replacing a whole set of springs with a set for a higher lift cam. Worked like a champ. And it made more sense on that car (4th gen Camaro) since the spark plugs were so hard to get out. Just had to have the firing order diagram handy and get it correct before releasing a spring.

The spring failures on the new Corvettes are more catastrophic due to bad materials or manufacturing. They are breaking... and depending on which coil and whether the valve stays bound up or not determines whether your engine is toast or not.



HotRodx10 said:


> Pressurizing the cylinder is much more effective, as it keeps the valve all the way up in the closed position, making it easier to get the new spring on.
> 
> Yeah, could be, but mine didn't really "break"; more like it bent a little; 2 of the coils were laying together. It wasn't in the fully open position; it jut didn't close all the way. from what I understand, that is the typical failure mode for a valve spring. All that to say, even on an interference engine, it's unlikely a bad valve spring would drop the valve enough for it to get bent.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

DoomsDave said:


> Yeah, good point.
> 
> "[My] money"? Seriously?


I thought everyone in your region is rich. Of course, the cost of living eats it all quickly.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

de-nagorg said:


> Therein lies the reason that I will not take a repair to a Dealership.
> 
> The techs know nothing about REAL repairs.
> 
> ...


Not so. My brother taught everything from a simple brake job to completely overhauling a modern electronic 10 speed automatic transmission. Every year he had about 2 or 3 outstanding students. They went on to large regional dealerships and made well over $100k per year diagnosing problems without turning a wrench. At the other end of the bell curve were a few who found a career busting tires at Pep Boys. The rest were good technicians. As you stated, many repairs involve changing parts. The hard part is figuring out which part to change. The techs with a good education get it right. The ones who learned down at Goober’s Filling Station shoot in the dark and don’t understand how the electronics work.


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

raylo32 said:


> I've done it by rotating the engine... replacing a whole set of springs with a set for a higher lift cam. Worked like a champ. And it made more sense on that car (4th gen Camaro) since the spark plugs were so hard to get out. Just had to have the firing order diagram handy and get it correct before releasing a spring.
> 
> The spring failures on the new Corvettes are more catastrophic due to bad materials or manufacturing. They are breaking... and depending on which coil and whether the valve stays bound up or not determines whether your engine is toast or not.


With mine, it was tricky enough getting the spring compressed enough to get the wedges in. I think it would've been much more difficult without the valve all the way up. I'm glad it worked for you.

I hadn't heard that about the Corvettes. Do you happen to know which engine that is? Is it only used in the Corvette?


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

The C8 uses the newest version of the Chevy small block V8, called the LT2. I believe a version of it is also used in the GM pickup truck lines. There have also been some valve spring failures in C7s like mine with LT1 engines, but not near as prevalent as in the C8s. Chevy has a TSB or such for a certain run of C8 VIN numbers for the springs. Some poor guys waited years to get one of these cars... and then the motor blows up a week later. Ooof.



HotRodx10 said:


> With mine, it was tricky enough getting the spring compressed enough to get the wedges in. I think it would've been much more difficult without the valve all the way up. I'm glad it worked for you.
> 
> I hadn't heard that about the Corvettes. Do you happen to know which engine that is? Is it only used in the Corvette?


----------



## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

raylo32 said:


> The C8 uses the newest version of the Chevy small block V8, called the LT2. I believe a version of it is also used in the GM pickup truck lines. There have also been some valve spring failures in C7s like mine with LT1 engines, but not near as prevalent as in the C8s. Chevy has a TSB or such for a certain run of C8 VIN numbers for the springs. Some poor guys waited years to get one of these cars... and then the motor blows up a week later. Ooof.


Sounds kinda like the old 409 Chevy engine, that engine had solid lifters and tight springs, if you missed a gear winding it tight, you could kiss the engine good bye. It would pop the top of the valve stim off at the keepers and there she goes.

I was going to suggest a stuck valve might be the problem, then thought that the engine could be interference. But, it could have been a stuck valve and the piston could have slapped the valve and bent it so it doesn't close. Oh well, it could be a lot of things. You will never know for sure until that engine is tore into.


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Just FYI since we were discussing it, here is the GM bulletin. It affects most if not all of their current V8 motors.

*#PIP5752A: Service Engine Light misfire engine noise With DTC P0300 P0106 P0506 - (Sep 22, 2020)*

Subject: Service Engine Light misfire engine noise With DTC P0300 P0106 P0506

_Involved Region or Country _North America

_Condition_

A Vehicle may have a concern of service engine light, misfire and engine noise with possible of DTC P0300 P0106 P0506.

_Cause_

Possible broken valve spring.
CorrectionDuring inspection if you determine that the engine has a broken valve spring it will be necessary to perform a cylinder leakage test on the affected cylinder.

*If no cylinder leakage is observed it will be necessary to replace all valve springs on both banks if the vehicle is built between June 1, 2020 to September 15, 2020. Note: This only applies to the 6.2L engines RPOs L87, LT1, LT4 and LT2. For all other engine RPOs L82, L84 and L8T just replace the affected valve spring.*

If you determine that engine has cylinder leakage it will be necessary to inspect further to determine the extent of the engine damage to determine correct repair required.

*Important: All valve springs will be requested back for further analysis and inspection.*


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

See post #277 here to see what this looks like in the worst case scenario. This is really what we mean by kerflooey!

Attention Valve Spring Failures/Concerns - Page 14 - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion


----------



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

Old Thomas said:


> Not so. My brother taught everything from a simple brake job to completely overhauling a modern electronic 10 speed automatic transmission. Every year he had about 2 or 3 outstanding students. They went on to large regional dealerships and made well over $100k per year diagnosing problems without turning a wrench. At the other end of the bell curve were a few who found a career busting tires at Pep Boys. The rest were good technicians. As you stated, many repairs involve changing parts. The hard part is figuring out which part to change. The techs with a good education get it right. The ones who learned down at Goober’s Filling Station shoot in the dark and don’t understand how the electronics work.


Have you ever been misinformed!

Case in point, at a local dealer 10 years ago, I took an F250, with a rebuilt 429CJ, in because it had lost power after 1000 miles.

Was told that it was wore out and needed a new engine.

This I knew to be BS, and took it home and did my own work.

Turns out that the rebuilder had used a cull Camshaft from a Major racing cam manufacturer, and it had wore down the lifters, and the lobes on the camshaft.

I replaced the parts with my personal inspected parts, and to this day, it runs like a champ.

Case #2, about 5 years ago, I took an old Bronco II into the same dealer, because it had lost power, was again told that it needed a new engine.

Again BS, I took it home, and found 1 broken valve spring, again fixed it, and it runs great.

Case #3, 2 years ago, My sister took their F250 diesel into the same dealer, it ran lousy, She was told , again it needs a new engine.

My nephew, cleaned all the injectors, and it still runs great.

So my contention that dealer techs, are nothing but "PARTS CHANGERS", still stands.

They only know how to plug in a diagnostic machine, and regurgitate whatever the machine says.

And if any tech is making $50.00 per hour, consistently, they are ripping people off, that do not know any better.

I hold an A S E certificate myself, and have worked in a dealership myself, so I know some of the shenanigans pulled on the uneducated public.

ED


----------



## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

de-nagorg said:


> Case #2, about 5 years ago, I took an old Bronco II into the same dealer, because it had lost power, was again told that it needed a new engine.
> 
> Again BS, I took it home, and found 1 broken valve spring, again fixed it, and it runs great.


That was the case with my '06 Impala, except it wasn't me that took it to the dealer; it was a good friend who was the previous owner. I cautioned him that it might not be as bad as they said, and offered to check it out for him. He said he'd think about it. The next time I talked to him a few days later, he had bought a new car, and told me I could have the '06 for free if I wanted it. Of course, I jumped at the offer. When I found out what was wrong with it, I offered it back to him or to pay him what it was worth, less the repairs. He just said " Nope, it's yours. I'm glad it worked out for you." As I said, a good friend.


----------



## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

de-nagorg said:


> Have you ever been misinformed!
> 
> Case in point, at a local dealer 10 years ago, I took an F250, with a rebuilt 429CJ, in because it had lost power after 1000 miles.
> 
> ...


Obviously your dealerships did not have well trained and educated mechanics. That happens. 3 cases of anecdotal evidence hardly condemns an industry where millions of repairs are done every year. I, too, have had unsatisfactory repair experiences. Like every profession, 50% of all mechanics are in the bottom half of their class. Good diagnostic techs at large regional dealerships do indeed make $50 per hour without fixing anything, all they do is diagnose. I wonder why someone like you, who has coronated himself as smartest mechanic on earth, takes vehicles to mechanics, tells them they are wrong, and then fixes them yourself just to prove it. I guess that if you live somewhere in remote Wyoming it would be hard to find a dealer with a decent mechanic. Someone with top notch skills can make a lot more money elsewhere, leaving that aforementioned bottom 50%.


----------



## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

Here she is


----------



## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Looks pretty good for a 1993, Dave. I guess living in an warm, arid no-salt area is both good and bad. On the one hand your cars don't rust so that the bodies and frames last forever... but on the other hand eventually the mechanicals will fail... but since they still look good you don't want to let them go. Here back east the bodies and mechs tend to go off closer to the same schedule.




DoomsDave said:


> Here she is
> 
> View attachment 636206


----------



## LawrenceS (Oct 21, 2020)

Old Thomas said:


> Obviously your dealerships did not have well trained and educated mechanics. That happens. 3 cases of anecdotal evidence hardly condemns an industry where millions of repairs are done every year. I, too, have had unsatisfactory repair experiences. Like every profession, 50% of all mechanics are in the bottom half of their class. Good diagnostic techs at large regional dealerships do indeed make $50 per hour without fixing anything, all they do is diagnose. I wonder why someone like you, who has coronated himself as smartest mechanic on earth, takes vehicles to mechanics, tells them they are wrong, and then fixes them yourself just to prove it. I guess that if you live somewhere in remote Wyoming it would be hard to find a dealer with a decent mechanic. Someone with top notch skills can make a lot more money elsewhere, leaving that aforementioned bottom 50%.


I work at a large(35 bay, probably 600 cars sold a month, precovid probably 100 cars a day through service, busy days 150-200) regional(6 miles from boston) dealership and I've never heard of Diagnostic techs as you describe them. Maybe in increasingly rare dealers you will get a salaried foreman who does what you describe, but those types of positions are going away.

I won't disagree that a large majority of dealer techs are terrible at their jobs and it's only getting worse as companies don't want to pay for good techs and don't get me started on warranty times.

But to the OP it is no where as simple as plugging the machine in and regurgitating information. Scan tools point you at what is malfunctioning not what is going to fix it. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, people care more about time these days then anything. So there is less chance for error with replacing something that RDI'ing it and attempting repair if possible, plus people don't comprehend it will cost "x" to figure it out and if it still need complete replacement you still pay "x" dollars for figuring it out plus cost of replacement.


----------

