# Ceiling Lap Marks



## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

I had my ceilings laminated with a new layer of drywall and finished "Level 5" slick, to remediate a horrible "knock down" texture that was falling off in chunks. 

It was just painted using SW PrepRite primer and two coats of SW Eminence. All was professionally sprayed using an airless sprayer. The primer was allowed to dry overnight. The two coats of Eminence were applied the following day. 

At certain angles and lighting conditions, I can see lap marks. I know many probably wouldn't notice, but after all of this work and money, it's driving me crazy.

I'm sure the only solution is yet another coat of paint but I have no idea what can be done differently to ensure a lap free finish. 

Any thoughts?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

What do you mean by lap marks exactly? 

Was the paint sprayed only and you can see where the spray patterns overlap, or was it back rolled and you can see the overlap of the roller? 

It’s tough to get a smooth ceiling with lots of critical light to look perfect. I find it hard to do if I don’t back roll, but I suppose some painters can make it look right spraying only. 

Some basic rules I use to get the best results in those situations are; 

Apply a good thick coat of paint. Too thin of a coat dries too fast and that increases laps. 

I always back roll in the direction the critical light is coming in. If there are large windows or glass doors on one end that the sunlight is coming through, I try to roll parallel with the light stream. Rolling the opposite direction seems to make the laps stand out more. 

It’s also important to have the finish strokes of the roller all going the same direction. You can roll back and forth across the room of course, but make the last stroke of each set either back or forth and not both. Rollers leave a slightly different texture depending on what direction they are going, and in critical light that can show up as laps. 

Finally, I don’t dislike Eminence as much as some of the pros here. I actually like how it looks most of the time. It’s a nice, cool but bright, white. But it’s not the most forgiving ceiling paint for applications like yours. It has just a touch of sheen and that seems to make it harder to handle on a large well lit ceiling. 

I like the Benjamin Moore 508 ceiling paint for the most challenging situations. It’s about as flat as it gets, and gives best results for me. It does cost about twice as much as Eminence, but it’s worth it sometimes. 


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Just compared the sheen ratings for Eminence vs the 508. The specs tell the tale also. 

Eminence rates at 0-5 units of sheen. 5 units being roughly average for a flat wall paint. 

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777847831/

The 508 on the other hand rates at 0-2 units. That’s really about as flat as regular paint gets. 

http://www2.benjaminmoore.com/Downl...08 TDS US OKF.PDF&propertyName=multidatasheet[0].data_sheet_file_en_US


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## kerryman71 (Feb 26, 2017)

Agree with everything Jmaspaint said, especially the Ben Moore 508. That's pretty much the only ceiling paint I find myself using now. I'm not sure you could find anything near as dead flat as that stuff.

John


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> What do you mean by lap marks exactly?
> 
> Was the paint sprayed only and you can see where the spray patterns overlap, or was it back rolled and you can see the overlap of the roller?
> ...


The paint was sprayed with no back rolling. Yes, I can see pattern overlap. And yes, one side of the room is full width sliding glass doors. 

I can be seated and look straight above my head and it looks terrific. But standing in my kitchen and looking along the ceiling out toward the sliding glass doors, which gives me a sight line of nearly the full length of the room, I can see the pattern. I joked earlier that it's like the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's girlfriend looks gorgeous or unattractive, depending on the lighting.

This seems to be graduate level stuff as 99% of the homes in west Florida (including mine, initially) have some kind of textured ceiling. I suppose the texture makes it much less likely to see this type of result. Just as most dry-wallers in the area don't have the skill to finish a proper slick ceiling, I guess most painters don't have to typically worry about visual lap lines on a ceiling.

Thank you for the detailed feedback. I'm really not sure where I'm going to go from here. It was just completed yesterday and I'm waiting to hear back from the painter. At this point, re-plasticing the house, spraying the ceiling again and cutting in the walls would be tantamount to nearly repeating the entire job, minus the priming.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yeah, texture makes a lot of difference in what’s necessary for a good looking job on a ceiling like that. 
We have almost all smooth finish drywall in this area. Back rolling is all but essential. I worked in north FL for a few years back before the housing crash and painters there rarely back rolled ceilings. Of if they did it was the first coat only. It just wasn’t necessary. 

Good luck resolving your situation. 


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## kerryman71 (Feb 26, 2017)

I just had a painting job that involved painting about 600 square feet of smooth ceiling. Somewhere along the line, most likely a previous homeowner painted them themselves. There were lap marks everywhere, with other areas where it was obvious that they started there with a loaded roller as the paint was noticeably thicker.

I cleaned the ceilings and sanded them to get as much of the imperfections out. I then primed with Insl-X Aquablock, which has a sheen of its own, bringing out the imperfections that were left over. 

Long story short, the top coat I used was the aforementioned Ben Moore 508 ceiling paint. After the first coat, you couldn't see the imperfections from the floor anymore. The second coat made it that much better looking. 

John


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I use lots of Emminence. It's tough to keep it from lapping. It wasn't a problem with its predecessor, Classic 99 Ceiling paint. I cringe when I have to use Emminence on a flat ceiling. I know I'm going to get lap marks no matter how fast I roll. (In your case, spray). It's not quite as bad on textured ceilings. In fact, it creates quite a bright white ceiling that really "pops." So, I don't know if applying another coat of Emminence is going to fix the problem. It could also be a technique thing with your painter.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

Gymschu said:


> I use lots of Emminence. It's tough to keep it from lapping. It wasn't a problem with its predecessor, Classic 99 Ceiling paint. I cringe when I have to use Emminence on a flat ceiling. I know I'm going to get lap marks no matter how fast I roll. (In your case, spray). It's not quite as bad on textured ceilings. In fact, it creates quite a bright white ceiling that really "pops." So, I don't know if applying another coat of Emminence is going to fix the problem. It could also be a technique thing with your painter.


If only I had known this yesterday. I would have insisted they back roll and would have specified the Benjamin Moore product. 

Live and learn I guess but I've just traded one frustrating ceiling situation (failing, ugly knockdown) for another...and paid thousands of dollars in the process.


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## mathmonger (Dec 27, 2012)

I've had a few complaints with Eminence. But it seems to get better with age. I wouldn't do anything for 2 weeks and the problem might magically go away. Lately, I use Promar 400 because it is dead flat and I can leave the job with the ceiling looking perfect.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

mathmonger said:


> I've had a few complaints with Eminence. But it seems to get better with age. I wouldn't do anything for 2 weeks and the problem might magically go away. Lately, I use Promar 400 because it is dead flat and I can leave the job with the ceiling looking perfect.


Is that really likely? I saw the lapping the evening they finished and hoped it was still drying and would disappear overnight. But 24 hours later, no change. 

I've had every lighting fixture, A/C supply, A/C return, fire detector, etc. off the ceiling for nearly a month. I need to get things back together. I don't want to put all of that back up if it's going to be sprayed again but I can't really wait another two weeks to make a decision.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Occasionally lap marks will cure out but often the only fix is another coat applied properly. I did a commercial job at the end of last century where I opted to not back roll the ceilings [working by myself] The spec'd ceiling paint left lap marks so I switched paints - end of problem.


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## mathmonger (Dec 27, 2012)

TipsyMcStagger said:


> Is that really likely? I saw the lapping the evening they finished and hoped it was still drying and would disappear overnight. But 24 hours later, no change.
> 
> I've had every lighting fixture, A/C supply, A/C return, fire detector, etc. off the ceiling for nearly a month. I need to get things back together. I don't want to put all of that back up if it's going to be sprayed again but I can't really wait another two weeks to make a decision.


Most people don't realize that paint does cure for a few weeks after it's "dry". The chemistry is pretty complicated. But it will definitely get harder and adhere better. This is common knowledge among anybody who knows paint. I'm not talking voodoo magic. And that's what I see happen. But I can understand why you might be skeptical. 

I say 25% chance it fixes itself, 25% chance another coat of paint fixes it, 50% chance the light is just hitting the ceiling in a really bad way and it will never really be right.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

I had emailed the painter at 9am yesterday and received no reply. First thing this morning, I received a reply apologizing for both the lap marks and for a lack of reply yesterday. 

He will be here first thing tomorrow to see what he can do. He briefly mentioned bringing a roller. At this point, I'm not sure if I should let him have a go at it with the Eminence or if I should buy the Benjamin Moore 508 for a final coat. 

I will obviously discuss this with him tomorrow.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

If he changes paints he'll need to completely repaint the ceiling. He might be able to just roll another coat if he stays with the same paint. You both should know more once he gets a chance to look at it.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

mark sr said:


> If he changes paints he'll need to completely repaint the ceiling. He might be able to just roll another coat if he stays with the same paint. You both should know more once he gets a chance to look at it.


I guess it makes the most sense to stick with Eminence. 

He seems genuinely concerned and motivated to make it right.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

I just came across this thread. If you change the date and username, it could have been written by me. It's literally the exact same scenario and circumstances.

Unfortunately, other than bashing Eminence, there was no resolution posted.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

While I've used a good bit of SWP coatings, I don't recall having used Eminence but I've been retired for awhile. I assume your painter has used a good bit of it and knows the ins/outs of that particular coating. If it's a coating he just started using or has had issues with in the past he'll likely switch coatings. At least he sounds like a contractor that cares about his reputation.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

TipsyMcStagger;5215577
Unfortunately said:


> The only answer, and it's a rough one, is to re-skim the ceiling and re-paint with BETTER ceiling paint. Simply applying ANOTHER coat of Emminence is only going to make matters worse. Even sanding the lap marks isn't going to do much. They don't completely go away even with aggressive sanding. It's hard to imagine re-doing it all and it will be an expensive proposition unless the painter re-does it for minimum cost.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

The painter showed up this morning when he said he would. He took one look at the ceiling and immediately agreed the finish was unacceptable. He said there's no question that it needs an additional coat and this time, it would be back rolled. Although he's not 100% sure why it came out the way it did (he offered several possibilities) he accepted responsibility and seems committed to making it right.

We discussed which paint to use and agreed that I would pay the difference to use BM 508. I wanted to be very clear that I wasn't telling him what to do, what paint to use or how to do his job. I don't want to be in a position where he says, "well, I used the paint you told me to use!" if the result is still less than proper. He was clear on this point and feels it's best to recoat with BM.

They are hanging plastic as I type. Thank you for the continued good input.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

Lets call today a success! The Benjamin Moore 508 looks beautiful. They completely resprayed and back rolled the entire ceiling. There are a few spots where I can see some lines from the edge of the roller but overall, it's a _vast_ improvement. I think they were pressing a little too hard on the roller at the start but then got it figured it out.

I can't say enough about this painter's work ethic and willingness to correct a bad situation. In the eight years I've been in FL, it's been an uphill battle to find trades people who have the common decency to return a phone call or show up for an appointment, no less perform quality work that they stand behind.

Thanks again for the input and for steering me toward BM 508. I'm somewhat doubtful the end result would have been as good had we continued with SW Eminence.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

> In the eight years I've been in FL, it's been an uphill battle to find trades people who have the common decency to return a phone call or show up for an appointment, no less perform quality work that they stand behind.


Remember him and spread the word. No better advertising than a well satisfied customer! Glad he got it fixed to your satisfaction.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

mark sr said:


> Remember him and spread the word. No better advertising than a well satisfied customer! Glad he got it fixed to your satisfaction.


Yep, I've already told him his attitude, responsiveness and ethic are what impressed me the most. He's from Venezuela and has only been in the USA for three years (and has only been speaking English for three years). 

He impressed me way more than 90% of the trades people I've had come through here in the past eight years. And he knows I'm going to let others know about him.

I don't want to get political but I hate all of the immigrant bashing. If the average American trades-person was as respectful and cared about their customer, their reputation and the quality of their work half as much as this guy...


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

" can't say enough about this painter's work ethic and willingness to correct a bad situation. In the eight years I've been in FL, it's been an uphill battle to find trades people who have the common decency to return a phone call or show up for an appointment, no less perform quality work that they stand behind."--TipsyMcStagger

^^^^^Love hearing outcomes like this. Believe it or not, most of us painters try our very best to make the finished product look the way the Homeowner wants it to look.


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## TipsyMcStagger (Oct 27, 2009)

I just wanted to post a follow up for anyone who might read this in the future; Now that it's been a few months, it's clear there will always be visible lap marks in this ceiling. Fortunately, they are most pronounced only when illuminated by direct natural light or given certain artificial lighting conditions, which is less than all of the time. 

The moral of the story is that the initial application was flawed. The first coats of primer and paint were not back rolled, resulting in visible lap marks. And proper back rolling technique is also important. I can see where the BM 508 was back-rolled with less than continuous strokes. In other words, I can see (given the correct lighting conditions) where the roller was lifted rather than continuing the stroke all the way to the adjacent wall.

As has been posted by others earlier in this thread, sanding might be the only way to correct this, and even that is not guaranteed (and I'm not willing to create that mess, at this point). Benjamin Moore 508 is definitely a much flatter paint than SW Eminence, which helped to improve the appearance. But the takeaway is - for a "slick" ceiling - use a very flat paint and _back roll with long, uninterrupted strokes in the initial application_. Otherwise, the finish will be flawed and nearly impossible to correct.

And as I wrote earlier, while I appreciate the painters' willingness to try to correct a bad situation, the simple fact is that his initial flawed application is what caused this outcome. I hope he's learned from this.


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## siffleur (Aug 19, 2013)

*Square one*



TipsyMcStagger said:


> I just wanted to post a follow up for anyone who might read this in the future; Now that it's been a few months, it's clear there will always be visible lap marks in this ceiling. Fortunately, they are most pronounced only when illuminated by direct natural light or given certain artificial lighting conditions, which is less than all of the time.
> 
> The moral of the story is that the initial application was flawed. The first coats of primer and paint were not back rolled, resulting in visible lap marks. And proper back rolling technique is also important. I can see where the BM 508 was back-rolled with less than continuous strokes. In other words, I can see (given the correct lighting conditions) where the roller was lifted rather than continuing the stroke all the way to the adjacent wall.
> 
> ...


TMS, since you have revived your post from last February, I will chime in with my 2 cents.

If I was doing this work for a customer, I might consider whether to skim coat or drywall over the old texture. Hard call to make without being there to look at it. I would be approaching the job with a view to making everything look as smooth and uniform as possible, whichever route I took.

If I ended up drywalling the ceiling, I would make sure that the tape job was top notch and very evenly sanded, after which I would vacuum the surface. Next I would go over the whole ceiling with a strong light to help highlight all the dings and scratches that easily show up (like poc marks from bubbles in the joint compound that have been sanded through and filled with dut, making them invisible if they are not vacuumed out). I would mark these areas, then skim coat to fill them in, sand and vac again.

Next I would roll a thorough coat of sealer onto the ceiling. The best sealer available to me in the Chicago area is Gardz by Zinsser. The sealer is milky white and dries clear. After the Gardz has dried, I would skim coat the ceiling again to fill in everything that I missed before. There will be many little places that will have been missed, so this step is necessary. After the skim coat is dry I would sand the whole ceiling again to make smooth, then vacuum the dust off.

At this point the ceiling should be close enough to a level 5 finish to start thinking about finishing the ceiling.

First, I would apply Gardz over the last skim coat and let dry. Then I would apply a second coat of Gardz and let this dry thoroughly as well. When the 2nd coat is dry, I would take a careful look at the sheen of the Gardz coating to see if it is uniform and not flashing anywhere (see Gardz TDS under application procedures). If I saw any dull spots I would roll a quick 3rd coat and let dry thoroughly. When the Gardz has dried I would give the ceiling a gentle scuf sand as Gardz gets too gummy for heavy sanding and a light sanding to get off the nubs should be enough.

Now the ceiling is ready for painting. This is where I find myself in a quandry. If all I have on the ceiling is a clear sealer (Gardz), the ceiling paint might not hide well enough to cover in one coat. I absolutely love rolling a first coat of ceiling paint over a sealed surface, but I find that if I have to roll a 2nd coat of ceiling paint over the same surface to get better coverage and uniformity, the 2nd coat goes on in a way that is similar to rolling over a surface that was not sealed by Gardz.

I don't believe that I have rolled ceiling paint without a roller nap in excess of 1/2". Perhaps if i used a 3/4" nap it would cover in one coat.

I like to use Wooster Micro Plush rollers as they seem to give a uniform appearance regardless of which direction the paint is rolled in. To date I have only used the 5/16" and 9/16" naps of these roller covers. I have use both on ceilings and I think I like the 9/16" nap better, but I am very curious to see how the Micro Plush 3/4" nap roller will work on ceilings.

All for now.

siffleur


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

It’s really tough to do a ceiling like that. Even in the best conditions, any little screw up in technique will show in critical lighting. 

It’s possible to backroll a large ceiling with continuous strokes all finishing in the same direction, but it’s quite challenging to do. You basically have to walk across the entire room, in the direction the light comes in, without stopping over and over. 

An 18” roller is a must of course. For back rolling, I like to use an 18” nap on a 14” frame. That way you get the extra width while still being able to roll up close to things. That 2” strip around the walls that you couldn’t get to because of a double ended roller frame will likely show a variance too in extreme lighting. 


Kudos to the guy for getting it as good as he did considering he’s operating in the land of texture. Differences in regional norms matter a lot. Just try to find a drywall guy in east TN that can do really nice knock down, or a painter that can do a good looking spray only job on texture. It’s just not a big part of the trade here. 




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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Strange, cuz everywhere I've ever lived, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona and Texas, 95% of homes are textured. Commercial is often smooth though. I have yet to do smooth wall new construction on homes. My old boss had a system, where he would backroll every coat, and it would cut any need for pole sanding between coats.


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

90% of the homes in east tenn have slick finished walls. It does vary across the country. I moved around a lot when I was young and texture could be prevalent in one area and non existent 200 miles down the road.


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