# Wiring a new 12x20 Storage Shed



## Know A Little (Sep 29, 2013)

This will be a separate service, new utility meter? This will affect a lot of your decisions 

Skill saws and compressors have a high inrush (starting current) I would go with 20 amp #12 AWG branch circuits.

For the cost of a circuit breaker you can minimize problems installing two circuits for the receptacles.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Know A Little said:


> This will be a separate service, new utility meter?


It will be coming off same meter as my house.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok from what I gather from reading.
Its ok to use 14/2 for the lights with a 15amp breaker.
12/2 for the outlets with 20 amp breaker or split them up and use 2 20 amp breakers. 

So with that I still need to know what breaker box to use and how many amps do I need it to be? What size wire from my breaker box inside the building out to my main pole?

I forgot to add that the run from the building to the pole is 25yds appriximate.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

If that's all the load you have listed in your first post, I would run 12/3 off a 20 amp 2 pole breaker in the house to the shed. This is a MWBC (Multi Wire Branch Circuit) and will you give you 2 20 amp 120 volt circuits, plenty for what you list.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

rjniles said:


> If that's all the load you have listed in your first post, I would run 12/3 off a 20 amp 2 pole breaker in the house to the shed. This is a MWBC (Multi Wire Branch Circuit) and will you give you 2 20 amp 120 volt circuits, plenty for what you list.


Well its a lot farther of a run from in the house where my breaker box is to the shed. I really want to come off the meter at the pole as the shed is only about 18yds from the pole but the cable will be approx 30yds or less counting running up in the meter and up the wall in the shed. I'm just unsure what amp service box and wire to do this with. I'm no electrician by no means of figuring stuff out but can do simple wiring if I have all the correct size stuff to get the job done with.

I dont want to over do it but by no means under do it either. I want it done right.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Handyworker said:


> Well its a lot farther of a run from in the house where my breaker box is to the shed. I really want to come off the meter at the pole as the shed is only about 18yds from the pole but the cable will be approx 30yds or less counting running up in the meter and up the wall in the shed. I'm just unsure what amp service box and wire to do this with. I'm no electrician by no means of figuring stuff out but can do simple wiring if I have all the correct size stuff to get the job done with.
> 
> I dont want to over do it but by no means under do it either. I want it done right.


Unless you have a breaker panel at the meter, you will have to feed from the house.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

jbfan said:


> Unless you have a breaker panel at the meter, you will have to feed from the house.


Thanks for pointing that out. I just went and looked and there is a spot for 4 breakers under my meter. 1 spot already has a 20 amp breaker for the outlet thats installed on the bottom of my meter. So that being said. Is a dual 20 amp breaker all I need with 12-3 running to my shed? If so what do I need to run it to to distribute it out in the shed and will I need breakers in the shed?


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok I've thought about the 12-3 with the dual 20 amp breaker. So I've never done this before but seems simple. So the only breaker will be at the pole the dual 20amp. Then take 1 hot to my outlets and 1 hot to my lights and they will share grounds and the white neutral?

Ok this being said where I split them up in the shed from there can I run 14-2 for the lights and 12-2 for the outlets? Also how many outlets can I put on the 20amp circuit? Thanks for all you guys help.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

You will need some sort of service disconnect where the circuit/s first enter the shed. A 2 pole switch will do. All receptacles in the shed will need to be GFI protected.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

k_buz said:


> You will need some sort of service disconnect where the circuit/s first enter the shed. A 2 pole switch will do. All receptacles in the shed will need to be GFI protected.


Ok I see your a license electrician so I'm sure you know what your talking about. Could you please explain the disconnect and why not the 20amp on the pole for the disconnect? Also I have read on the net that GFI outlets dont work properly on a 12-3 sharing a neutral between 2 circuts on a dual breaker. To be honest I'm kinda confusing myself I think reading all this different info. I'm asking about the GFI's because of what I read. I have a bunch of just normal outlets how can I go about using them instead? Thanks.


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## Know A Little (Sep 29, 2013)

k_buz said:


> You will need some sort of service disconnect where the circuit/s first enter the shed. A 2 pole switch will do. All receptacles in the shed will need to be GFI protected.


One think I have learned from this forum is somewhat confusing when we (DIY'ers and licensed electricians) add bits and pieces. I am as guilty of this as anybody.

KBUZ- If this was your job lay it out from house over current protection to shed all inclusive.

And of course there is the old BMW or Yugo.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

There is a reason I don't do that. If a DIYer is going to take on a electrical project, I am not going to hold their hand. I will give information that they should already know if they are going to take on the project. If they don't, they need to buy a basic electrical wiring type book and do some research on their own.

I usually get paid for my knowledge in this area and if I am going to help out, it's the least the DIYers can do.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Handyworker said:


> Ok I see your a license electrician so I'm sure you know what your talking about. Could you please explain the disconnect and why not the 20amp on the pole for the disconnect? Also I have read on the net that GFI outlets dont work properly on a 12-3 sharing a neutral between 2 circuts on a dual breaker. To be honest I'm kinda confusing myself I think reading all this different info. I'm asking about the GFI's because of what I read. I have a bunch of just normal outlets how can I go about using them instead? Thanks.


Every structure needs its own disconnect at the structure. For a small circuit like this, a 20A double pole light switch is all you need to disconnect both hot wires.

You can use the GFCIs on an MWBC, you just have to split the MWBC into two circuits first, and put a GFCI at the beginning of each circuit. So you'd run the neutral and one of the hots to each GFCI, and come off the load side of each GFCI with a 12-2 cable to all of the other outlets you install.


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## Know A Little (Sep 29, 2013)

k_buz said:


> There is a reason I don't do that. If a DIYer is going to take on a electrical project, I am not going to hold their hand. I will give information that they should already know if they are going to take on the project. If they don't, they need to buy a basic electrical wiring type book and do some research on their own.
> 
> I usually get paid for my knowledge in this area and if I am going to help out, it's the least the DIYers can do.


YOu already got him started and are always HELPING on this site!

Myself I have no problem sharing my knowledge, one a DIYer will do it with or without your help, two the knowledge is out there just look at youtube, and three if he screws up he is suing you not me!


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Well I joined this forum just to get some info to make sure I'm doing things right. If you don't want to share your knowledge why bother to post on this thread? Thats what forums are for on the net and I find them useful. I'm on several pc and computer forums and I like sharing my knowledge fixing computers and such. I try to share everything I know helping folks and try save them a few $$ from getting ripped off at the local PC store. Thanks to all who have helped me on this forum its greatly appreciated.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

I thought I did help. I'm just not going to give step by step instructions on how to do this job.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

I would run 8 ga wire to a small load center. The initial cost is not much more.
Never assume you won't run anything on 240 volts later. Something may come up.
Somebody offers you a 240 volt compressor or something for free, whatever....it happens.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Yeah, that's the other thing; run a larger conduit than you need, because eventually you will want more power out there.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Handyworker said:


> Ok this being said where I split them up in the shed from there can I run 14-2 for the lights and 12-2 for the outlets? Also how many outlets can I put on the 20amp circuit? Thanks for all you guys help.


Since you are using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker as the supply, all wiring must be #12.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok I think thats what I would rather do is run like the #8 wire to a small breaker box in the shed. This is what my first plan was originally. What amp should the main shut off breaker be in the shed? Then I can get a 15 amp breaker and 14-2 wire for the lights and 2 20 amp breakers and 12-2 wire for the outlets and split them up 4 outlets per 20 amp breaker. That way if I need to add on later it will be easy.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Handyworker said:


> * all I want is a couple lights and about 8 outlets and thats it. I will never use 220 so just need regular 110 outlets. I only plan to be using a maintainer for my motorcycle and maybe some regular power tools if any skill saw, jigsaw small air compressor . *


From your first post, now you want a sub panel so you can add on later:whistling2:


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

rjniles said:


> From your first post, now you want a sub panel so you can add on later:whistling2:


This is what I had in mind is a small breaker box to have 2-4 breakers. This is the way im used to doing things. When someone brought up the 12-3 thing I was kinda confused and used google to look it up and got 10 different answers.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

:whistling2:My first post ask what size wire to run from pole to main breaker then have 2 breakers 1 for lights and 1 for outlets.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

You will need to run 4 wires...H, H, N, G. Drive two ground rods, don't bond neutral and ground in the sub and keep the neutrals and grounds separate. Size of the feeders would be completely up to you...minimum #10's.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

If I run a small breaker box that has a main breaker and then distribute the power from there can I use these regular outlets that I already have?


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Handyworker said:


> If I run a small breaker box that has a main breaker and then distribute the power from there can I use these regular outlets that I already have?


Not unless you install GFI breakers.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

k_buz said:


> Not unless you install GFI breakers.


Whats with the GFI stuff? We done my dads shop 10yrs ago. We ran like 6 or 8ga from the pole to a 100amp service panel then installed breakers from there and installed like 20 regular outlets and a ton of lights. Why cant this be done in my building? Of course I dont need the 100 amp service in my case but same setup just smaller.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Handyworker said:


> Whats with the GFI stuff? We done my dads shop 10yrs ago. We ran like 6 or 8ga from the pole to a 100amp service panel then installed breakers from there and installed like 20 regular outlets and a ton of lights. Why cant this be done in my building? Of course I dont need the 100 amp service in my case but same setup just smaller.



Found this:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-requirements-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfci


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

123pugsy said:


> Found this:
> 
> http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-requirements-ground-fault-circuit-interrupters-gfci


So this is in a non commercial 12x20 building out in the middle of nowhere 10 miles from civilization so I don't need the GFI correct?
Pugsy I tried to send you a pm but it wouldn't let me.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

.http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Handyworker said:


> So this is in a non commercial 12x20 building out in the middle of nowhere 10 miles from civilization so I don't need the GFI correct?
> Pugsy I tried to send you a pm but it wouldn't let me.



If no permits, you can do anything you like.

If I myself were to do something w/o pulling a permit, I would however make sure I did my research and build it to current codes.

As for PM's my settings allow any forum member to PM me. Perhaps the site has a minimum 25 post rule or something.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

There is no debating it. You are required to install GFI protection for the 120V receptacles. It is for your protection.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

123pugsy said:


> If no permits, you can do anything you like.
> 
> If I myself were to do something w/o pulling a permit, I would however make sure I did my research and build it to current codes.
> 
> As for PM's my settings allow any forum member to PM me. Perhaps the site has a minimum 25 post rule or something.


Why would you tell him that? :icon_rolleyes:


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok the pm worked I had to have 15 post. I just need to know if its safe to just install the regular breakers and outlets. Thats the way every shop in 100 miles of here is done. I have never seen a GFI installed except for in my home or someone else home. No permit is required here I live 10 miles out in middle of nowhere and just need safe power in my shed. I dont want to get shocked or burn it down thats all. I dont care about any code.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Handyworker said:


> I dont care about any code.


That's what I figured. I suggest nobody else gives advice. Living in the middle of nowhere doesn't exempt you from current codes.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

k_buz said:


> Why would you tell him that? :icon_rolleyes:



I'll admit it's a bad call as I don't know the OP's capabilites.
One thing I can tell about the OP is that he will do it with or without our help.

Is it better to not guide him and in not doing so, he goes and does something dangerous? Tough call.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

k_buz said:


> That's what I figured. I suggest nobody else gives advice. Living in the middle of nowhere doesn't exempt you from current codes.


I'm not spending the money on extra stuff unless its something that I have to do. No one will see this but me. But if I need to install the GFI on one end or the other I can do it.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Is it cheaper to by a 15 and 20 amp GFI breaker or the 8 outlets and light switch?


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## Philly Master (Mar 30, 2013)

you should GFI the outlets ..

so 1 GFI could do all the outlets ... wire the outlets 12/2 with 1 20 amp GFI ..


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

So this is a no no on the grounding on a sub panel? So do you just put the grounds coming out of the main cable with the grounds going to the outlets and lights? Instead of tying them to the bar with the neutral wires?


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Some places in the southern country there are no codes or inspectors. Just go out there and build anyway you want to. I am sure as time passes that will change. If I were to build myself a home and shop in an area like that I would want to build to code for my family's safety as well as the investment. If a person doesn't know how to build to code he may or may not get it right. IMHO it is best to know what code is so that person can make the decision to do it right or chance it. One thing is for sure, if it isn't to code and someone is injured or property is destroyed insurance won't pay, not to mention the guilt of hurting someone.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Yea I'm gonna go with the GFI brekaers and a sub panel and use my normal outlets that I got. This panel above will be like the one I'm gonna try to purchase. If I run #8 wire do I need to use a double 40 amp breaker at the meter pole? I will probably get a box that has at least 4 spots for later use. I wasnt aware you could get a box like this with no main breaker in the box thats where I was getting confused.


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## Philly Master (Mar 30, 2013)

Handyworker said:


> So this is a no no on the grounding on a sub panel? So do you just put the grounds coming out of the main cable with the grounds going to the outlets and lights? Instead of tying them to the bar with the neutral wires?



on the right side of the panel ... you see the HOLES ??

they are to ADD a Ground bar .. you can buy them for about 10$ ..


then move the grounds to there ...leave the neutrals where they are ...


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Philly Master said:


> on the right side of the panel ... you see the HOLES ??
> 
> they are to ADD a Ground bar .. you can buy them for about 10$ ..
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info!!


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Now I'm getting somewhere. What size wire and double post breaker do I need to feed the panel? I'm gonna install a 20amp or maybe 2 20 amp for the outlets and a 15amp for the lights.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

The breaker and wire size depend on how much capacity you want the panel to have.


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

Handyworker said:


> Yea I'm gonna go with the GFI brekaers and a sub panel and use my normal outlets that I got. This panel above will be like the one I'm gonna try to purchase. If I run #8 wire do I need to use a double 40 amp breaker at the meter pole? I will probably get a box that has at least 4 spots for later use. I wasnt aware you could get a box like this with no main breaker in the box thats where I was getting confused.


a gfci circuit breaker is significantly more expensive than a gfci receptacle (like, $65 vs $10). use a 'regular' breaker to serve a gfci receptacle and then serve the remaining receptacles from the load side of the gfci receptacle. the downstream receptacles can be the 'regular' receptacles you already have but they will now be gfci protected. same protection as the breaker but an extra $50 in your pocket. :thumbup:


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

itsnotrequired said:


> a gfci circuit breaker is significantly more expensive than a gfci receptacle (like, $65 vs $10). use a 'regular' breaker to serve a gfci receptacle and then serve the remaining receptacles from the load side of the gfci receptacle. the downstream receptacles can be the 'regular' receptacles you already have but they will now be gfci protected. same protection as the breaker but an extra $50 in your pocket. :thumbup:


Thanks for explaining that to me. I didn't know that.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Someone correct me if this is not what I will need please.
50' of 10-3 with ground.
30amp dual breaker at the pole then run the 10-3 from that to the sub panel. In the panel keep the grounds and neutrals on separate buss bar. 
In the panel I will add a 20amp breaker with 12-2 wire to the GFI protected outlet then chain the remaining outlets to it.

For the lights is there a GFI protected switch? Can I run 14-2 with a 15amp breaker just for the lights?

Will a 100 amp panel work for this I know it wont be 100amp but all the smaller ones I looked at really didnt have much room or spots for breakers.


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

the lights do not need gfci protection. a 100 amp panel will work just fine.

what's your plan for running the feeder from the pole to the shed? direct buried? conduit? what type of cable?


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

itsnotrequired said:


> the lights do not need gfci protection. a 100 amp panel will work just fine.
> 
> what's your plan for running the feeder from the pole to the shed? direct buried? conduit? what type of cable?


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-100-ft-10-3-UF-B-with-Gauge-Cable-Grey-13059123/202316273

Thats what I plan to run from the pole to the sub panel in the shed. It says its direct bury wire. I found same on ebay for 50' which is what I need for $68.50 shipped to my door. Thanks for your help and info.


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## crescere (Aug 17, 2012)

Handyworker said:


> * Is 14/2 wire fine for the inside running to the lights and outlets? What wire for main breaker to my outside pole/meeter loop. *


 
I have a house that has no power in the garage. I did not want to dig a trench becuse there is brick in the ground that serves as a patio. Can I just run up a pole? How high does it have to be? How is it done?


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

*Got my list together today and figured out my wire lengths.

1 Sub Panel still gotta figure out which one I want.
1 30AMP Dual Post Breaker
2 20AMP Single Breakers to spit up the outlets
1 15AMP Breaker for the Lights
5 single outlets and covers brown
1 double outlet and cover brown
1 brown switch and cover
1 double outlet box already mounted
1 light switch box already mounted
5 single outlet boxes already mounted

50' of 10-3 with ground
75' of 12-2 with ground
50' of 14-2 with ground

I think I got it all figured out and its not gonna be that bad or expensive as I thought. That 10-3 wire i'm getting is direct bury without conduit so how deep should it be buried?

*


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## Philly Master (Mar 30, 2013)

Handyworker said:


> *Got my list together today and figured out my wire lengths.
> 
> 1 Sub Panel still gotta figure out which one I want.
> 1 30AMP Dual Post Breaker
> ...



2 20 amp GFI outlets ...LOL


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Philly Master said:


> 2 20 amp GFI outlets ...LOL


Yea it definitely wont be 2 20amp GFI breakers who could afford that.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

24 inches


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## itsnotrequired (Apr 30, 2010)

24" is what code would require but if you are not bound to any code, i guess it could be shallower.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

This is what I'm doing in my shed. I'm installing 2 lights and a single pole switch. Just simple wiring. The problem I got is what do you do with the ground at the light? Its plastic boxes with ceramic light inlets. No place for a ground on ceramic fixture and of course its not gonna go to a plastic box.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Handyworker said:


> This is what I'm doing in my shed. I'm installing 2 lights and a single pole switch. Just simple wiring. The problem I got is what do you do with the ground at the light? Its plastic boxes with ceramic light inlets. No place for a ground on ceramic fixture and of course its not gonna go to a plastic box.


Coil up the ground in the back of the box.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Should I go ahead and connect the ground from the sub panel to the switch itself then just dont tie it in from there?


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

The box for the switch is plastic also. The switch I bought today just has 2 brass screws for the hot coming in and hot going out to the lights. I just use a wire nut to connect the neutral to keep it going to the lights but there is nowhere to put a ground on the switch either. It looks like there is a whole where a ground possibly could go but the whole isn't threaded for a screw.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Get another switch with a ground screw.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

jbfan said:


> Get another switch with a ground screw.


Ok I was gonna go ahead and do that tomorrow. I dunno why this don't have one. I bought it new today and didn't notice till I got home it didn't have one. I guess after I ground the switch no need for attaching the ground in the wire going up to the lights since there just tucked in the boxes because there plastic. I figured all new outlets and switches would have a ground on them. I guess I figured wrong. Thanks again for your input.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

All the grounds need to be spliced together.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Jim Port said:


> All the grounds need to be spliced together.


Ok I can splice the ground in the wire thats running up to the lights where I tie the main wire ground coming into the switch. But whats the point if the ground is just coiled up in the 2 light boxes cause there is no where to put them down?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

It will be available and functional should the fixtures ever get changed.


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## Handyworker (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok that makes sense. I will do that. Thanks!


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