# rotting railroad ties



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

I live on a hill. the only part of my property that's relatively level is the front. the back is like a 45 deg. slope all around, therefore,the original builder (30+ years ago) used lots and lots of "railroad ties" for retaining walls. (the state of Co. is just teeming with those things)
now,I'm considering putting in (no DIY,my back won't take it!) one big continuous retaining wall from one side to the other made out of some sort of blocks.
my question is whether I should have all those ties dug out before I have a bunch of dirt put in or maybe just leave 'em in there to rot.

pix can be posted if anyone wants this

tnx,


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

One issue you have is getting rid of them if they are authentic railway ties. They are on EPA watch lists because of all the nasty preservatives in them---creosote just to start. You may need a permit to dispose of them or to wait for a toxic waste recycling event. If when you say railway ties you just mean timbers of that size? You can do what you want with them I guess.

I guess my inclination would be to at least dig them out and stack them so not in your way when framing and pouring your retaining wall. On the other hand, if they are not hurting anything it may be safest to leave them where they are if they do not look disgusting as they rot.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

what I was getting at was if they are under the dirt and rot completely,will this leave a low spot on the surface?

tnx.


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

The ground will definitely settle as they rot if you leave them in place. It will happen slowly so it really may not be a problem as you could always add some dirt as it settles if it's lawn if there will be plantings it may be a different story. If they are really railroad ties then disposing of them could be a major problem.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

Msradell said:


> The ground will definitely settle as they rot if you leave them in place. It will happen slowly so it really may not be a problem as you could always add some dirt as it settles if it's lawn if there will be plantings it may be a different story. If they are really railroad ties then disposing of them could be a major problem.


yes,that's what I'm thinking. my property is just loaded with "real railroad ties" soaked in creosote. my guess is that once they're under ground,they won't be a danger to anyone. as far as the ground "settling",I'll probably leave the space "natural" so a little "waviness" of the ground won't be very noticeable.

tnx,


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The railroad ties will continuously leach creosote over the lifespan it takes to rot. If you are on well water, you may be drinking the leached creosote. As for removing them, it sounds like you may need to build a reasonably high retaining wall, I could not tell from your post. If so, you almost certainly need to put granular fill behind the wall, especially if you go with segmental block. In that case, you may need to remove the railroad ties to allow you to build the block wall and backfill correctly.


----------



## pls8xx (May 2, 2009)

I think the answer depends on the site specifics. There is much we don't know. How tall is the wall? What are the grades above and below the wall? What is the soil type? What type wall will be constructed? How much separation will there be between the new and old walls?

While a slow collapse of the ground as the ties rot may not cause a problem, there is another consideration. Manny soils will not immediately fill in the space created by the tie disintegration. This leaves open voids which can transport water at a much faster rate than through consolidated soil. There is the potential for silt carried by this water to interfere with the wall drainage and cause saturation of the soil behind the wall.

Sometimes it's safe to leave the ties, sometimes you better take them out.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Msradell said:


> If they are really railroad ties then disposing of them could be a major problem.


I hope I did not suggest it will be a major problem; just a PITA! Most landfills may take them but probably under permit only. There are companies around the country that recycle them into fuel and so forth. If one is close to you, you may be in luck. But if permits work like they do for most other things these days you will will probably have to retain a disposal or waste management firm to haul them away and certify the proper disposal. I don't know, but this could cost you a few schillings?


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

sdsester said:


> I hope I did not suggest it will be a major problem; just a PITA! Most landfills may take them but probably under permit only. There are companies around the country that recycle them into fuel and so forth. If one is close to you, you may be in luck. But if permits work like they do for most other things these days you will will probably have to retain a disposal or waste management firm to haul them away and certify the proper disposal. I don't know, but this could cost you a few schillings?


sounds like I ought to remove those ties from reading these posts to be on the "safe side". funny, but I just removed all the rotting ties the original builder put around my window wells, in preparation for some "window well covers". I just threw them in the dumpster the "stucco" guys were using (just had the house "stuccoed") and nobody said anything. well anyway, when it comes time for the wall, I'll just have whoever I hire just throw them all down my hill and let them rot naturally.

tnx,


----------



## TGMcCallie (Nov 12, 2011)

If you are just going to throw them down the hill and let them rot naturally, then I would just leave them in the ground and let them rot naturally. If they are like most rr ties they will take a long time to rot and probably not cause you any trouble at all.

I would just leave them and cover over them with soil and forget it.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

ok, here's some pix. figured you guys need to see the situation.
you can see all the ties the original builder put down. (at least most of them...actually only SOME of them )
I was thinking since this wall will be pretty high in places,I may have to go with a cement block wall.

tnx,


----------



## TGMcCallie (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks like the builder had a pretty good idea. The only thing is that they do not hold up forever and thus begins to look bad. If he had used some type of paver block it would still be looking good. That would have cost him more money, I guess espedially if he got the old RR ties free. If they were free because the railroad and removed them due to their deteriating condition, he should not have expected them to last forever anyway.

This being said, I would not have used them in the first place because I do not like the look they present.

Tom


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Looks like a gorgeous piece of land. In looking at it, you have a fair amount of retaining wall to put in. Before you jump at cinder block? Have you had a concrete company out to give you estimate on forming and pouring everything? Might be cheaper, stronger and offer some added flexibility. You could color the concrete if you didn't want the stark gray look. You won't be able to do that with block.

I guess I am now somewhat confused. Are you replacing all the ties or just that uppermost linear retaining wall?

I see you started in with some path lights? Solar I presume? You might want to run some low voltage line to extend that lighting scheme before you build the new retaining system. That is if you are replacing everything I see that now has RR ties. 

Hope you post pics of the finished results.


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

to tell the truth,I got "inspired" by my neighbor's yard. he has a really nice wall and it makes the back of his property stunning with the view and all. trouble is, my wall is going to be "mucho" bigger. (and lots more expensive ) oh well,I'd better get that done and make the back relatively level before I'm confined to a wheelchair full time. (I'll want to be able to get around my own property with relatively easy access)
"sdster", you really think a poured wall might be cheaper than "cinder block"?

tnx,


----------



## TGMcCallie (Nov 12, 2011)

Enjoy it, you can't take it with you (the wall or the money).
Tom


----------



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

A poured cantilever reinforced concrete wall is more costly than a dry stack segmental wall in almost every place in the world if the site will accept one. - I have seen 40' high with no steel reinforcement, mortar, grout or poured footings along freeways/international highways. It is a question of the space between the wall and the rock and if the rock can support lateral loads - must be engineered.

edit: Any high wall is pricey, but some systems work better especially for varying heights or curves.

Dick


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

analogmusicman said:


> "sdster", you really think a poured wall might be cheaper than "cinder block"?
> 
> tnx,


There is less labor involved in forming and pouring a solid wall than fitting and "mortaring" it together with blocks. A good concrete person can offer control of colorants and even stamped or formed in surface texture or pattern. 

I would at least get some estimates. And if you are planning to replace all the railway ties I see in the pic? I should think forming and pouring would save you quite a bit over block work. 

Obviously you are going to need some rebar in either situation. Make sure that is in the bids.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

You know I came back to this post later today. You have such a gorgeous piece of land. Let's see the back of the house. I remember this wonderful interview Barbara Walter's did with Steve Martin years ago. 

Seriously. Most people are afraid of landscape architects (or architects in general) because only the really rich can afford them? What total nonsense. Architects, next to pharmacists, commit suicide more than any other professions because nobody thinks they dare call an architect. Pharmacist suicide must be attributed to something else. So call one. Keep them from jumping over the edge. 

And like good accountants, good landscape architects should pay for themselves. Trust me. Call one to figure all this out for you. You will have a really great experience. I always do. And then rather than pay them, I beat there heads in with a shovel and bury them. 

Yes, all of them have coupon books for $10 off at a box store. I do not think so. What if, just what if, they had other sources and contractors to match at the same price point?

http://www.asla.org/

Just saying you might ask around. Or I guess you could do the yellow pages on your own. I know, this is DIY site. So tar feather drag and hang me. You have a complex situation the more I look at it beyond retaining things and replacing rr ties.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

concretemasonry said:


> I have seen 40' high with no steel reinforcement, mortar, grout or poured footings along freeways/international highways.


Wow. Too cool!Hope you were moving at a highspeed. I almost got nailed by natural rock with no poured fittings, mortar or grout twice in my life. 

Once in Colorado and once in California. 

The road in Colorado was closed for a time---three days as I remember---just after I passed. The rock that came loose with whatever tremor in California was only twice the size of the Sunbeam Alpine I had just restored. It hit the pavement just behind me, bounced, and landed in the yard of some guy's cattle yard. The cows just looked at it as another daily occurence so I drove on.

I say, just to test fate, we build 40 foot walls without steel reinforcement all over the World again. It is all over for us in a month you know. Aztec/Inca calendar and all.


----------



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

The walls I referred were designed by professionals and very often by DOTs using proven systems.

The block are segmental retaining wall (SRWs) for the uniformed. They are currently the most common product for retaining walls in the U.S. they system came to the U.S. from foreign companies that had decades of experience. Obviously, the higher walls are professionally designed, as are rigid reinforced concrete wall. With an SRW, no concrete footing is used or allowed and the same applies to rebar, mortar and grout. This is a very important advantage since the logistics of getting these materials to a high wall on a difficult to access site.

The most impressive installation was along a 20 mile stretch of freeway in spain. The highest wall was only 300' feet long, but the adjacent segments were 5 to about 30' depending on the grade and cuts. - This was built 12 years ago and almost every segment had inside or outside corners, or both. There also some high SRW walls in the U.S. The 4 major product licensors in the U.S. were organized in the 1980s and hundreds of producer licensees around the world making similar systems that are engineered almost identically by a licensed engineer working with a soils engineer.

Wake up and look around!

Dick


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Don't go there. What you forget to mention is the blocks in those wall were not square edged like here at box stores. They interlocked. And they did have steel.


----------



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

What you see in a box store are usually just DIY junior(or less), smaller units for decorative landscaping. They usually have smooth bottoms, but some may have lips for shear resistance and some box stores do carry the real SRW units (40-85#) with beveled sides for corners. Again, for the hard-nosed, no SRW units should not and cannot be used with steel or mortar or concrete footings.

A Certified SRW would never use steel,mortar or grout for risk of losing his certification and of course all guarantees are voided. There are some unknowing producers (generally in the East) that make knock-offs, but do not understand are so stupid to suggest the use of steel and grout because they do not understand the system is to make a wall that has some "flex" to handle weather cycles and frost heaving.

I personally visited the walls I referred to and saw the production and then met with the designers.

I think in the Chicago area there are at least 3 of the 4 major systems (Allan Block, Anchor Wall Systems, Keystone and Versalok) available from different local producers that sell landscape to the box stores and real SRWs to contractors.

Dick


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

sdsester said:


> Don't go there. What you forget to mention is the blocks in those wall were not square edged like here at box stores. They interlocked. And they did have steel.


 The interlocking ones are also available for residential use and many of the big box stores carry them. Steel is not required until they exceed about 10 feet, the manufacturer's websites give clear details on this. The steel is only there to hold it back into the face of the wall behind it. They're certainly the easiest and strongest way to build a retaining wall at a reasonable price.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Msradell said:


> The interlocking ones are also available for residential use and many of the big box stores carry them. Steel is not required until they exceed about 10 feet, the manufacturer's websites give clear details on this. The steel is only there to hold it back into the face of the wall behind it. They're certainly the easiest and strongest way to build a retaining wall at a reasonable price.


Nonsense. :furious::furious::furious::furious:

That sort of wall may not fail in total and only cause a partial failure. You willing to park your Mercedes anywhere near it? Your construction suggestion cannot survive even calculated dead, let along live shifting loads. Add some water for fun.


----------



## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

sdsester said:


> You willing to park your Mercedes anywhere near it? Your construction suggestion cannot survive even calculated dead, let along live shifting loads. Add some water for fun.


I certainly would be willing to do that! You obviously are not familiar with this type of wall based on your comments. Look at some of the websites of the suppliers mentioned above to familiarize yourself with the technology! :whistling2:


----------



## analogmusicman (Feb 4, 2008)

so I guess I should employ a "lanscape architect" since this has to be done "right". wouldn't want my wall collapsing! (especially if I was around the top with my "Mercedes )

tnx,


----------

