# Whisper Heat by Lennox not working



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Carefully describe the sequence of operation.

Spark, burners ignite, furnace overheats and shuts down isn't a ignition module problem.

If you turn the fan to ON and get heat, the problem lies in a connection or the blower control board.

It's possible that the board isn't bringing on the fan or the speed tap used for heat is bad. On this furnace, fan on is the same speed as a/c while heat uses a lower tap. The board doesn't have any logic built into it and doesn't switch to the right speed for heat when the fan switch is in the on position.


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## Tacticalmedic (Mar 26, 2016)

I simply haven't had any heat at all coming from the furnace. When the thermostat is selected to heat and the desired temperature is well above ambient temperature nothing happens on the furnace. There's no gas ignited. Nothing. The only thing I can hear is the buzzing when the rocker switch is engaged. The manifold stays closed. Nothing happens.


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## roughneck (Nov 28, 2014)

Door switch made? What filter did you install? Do you have troubleshooting tools like a meter? Some work will involve working with live gas and electricity.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Check the thermostat control wire connections.

Jumper R and W and depress the door switch for 60 secons. (the module may have a pre-purge delay)

With a bad module you will get 24vac at the module but no activity - the fan may time on after a delay. The module is more reliable than other parts of the ignition system.

If the module isn't getting power you have to check elsewhere in the furnace.

Troubleshoot with the meter, do not just change parts.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

Jumping the thermostat connections R & W inside the furnace will eliminate the possibility of a stat wire or connection fault. That kind of fault will often not cause any diagnostic led fault on the S8610U.
And
I believe with a whisper heat, the first noticeable action that the furnace is supposed to take with a call for heat..is the motorized opening of the door to the burner compartment.
If that is not happening then I'd be checking the reset buttons on the roll out and limit switches or at least checking where on that whole damper motor circuit, the 24 Volts is being stopped.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I work on LOTS of them and HOW is correct.

When it calls for heat the damper door on the burner box must open and then it activates a end switch to start the burner.

The buzzing may be the normal sound of the 24volt transformer.

You may have broken a thermostat wire when changing the filter.

Follow them into the furnace and see if any are broken.

They attach to the BCC blower control board with the fuse.


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## Tacticalmedic (Mar 26, 2016)

You're absolutely correct. There was a loose connection when I changed the filter. Thanks guys you saved me big bucks! 

Have a great Easter.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Glad U got it going.:smile:

That is a old furnace and not worth spending lots of $$ on to repair IMO. I can list 6 expensive repairs ranging from $400-800 that may need to be done soon plus the heat exchangers crack on them. 

I would start budgeting for a new one unless you like doing repairs.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Belongs in the scrap yard.


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## Tacticalmedic (Mar 26, 2016)

Hahaha in sure it's past its prime but as long as it keeps the house warm and is working then it's all good. Definitely started budgeting for a new one.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Was kind of kidding - don't believe in changing working equipment for the most part but when it needs heat exchanger replacement, module or blower motor you should scrap it.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

A Whisperheat's worth depends how it's been installed and how mild or harsh a climate it's had to deal with. I don't know where the OP lives but in Vancouver I still have lots of Whisperheats that have been chugging contentedly along since the 80's.
When listening to you harsher weather HVAC techs, I think your furnaces wear out twice as fast as what I am used to seeing..


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## Tacticalmedic (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm in the Fraser Valley, so not too far away. Hopefully it's got another 20 years in her.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

heh, vancouver doesn't have real winters compared to the rest of the country. barely need a furnace - climate mild enough for heatpumps. 

main thing about that furnace is heat exchangers cracking - i've been told that by a tech a long time ago and have seen numerous pictures online.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

*
Y*up, spending my weekend in shorts and a t-shirt, sweeping cherry blossoms off the walkways.
*
All* heat exchangers eventually crack. Since new furnaces usually have heat exchangers with shorter lifespans than the older furnaces, I think that the longevity question is a disingenuous argument that conveniently feeds the economic investments of our own furnace sale incomes.
I do think that we *can* legitimately argue that potential CO poisonings are better mitigated through the better safety controls of newer furnaces but I have found that this comparison really only applies to those furnaces that are not regularly inspected by professionals who know what they are doing.

Of course, on a DIY site, we might be mostly dealing with the folks least likely to be getting their own furnaces serviced by outside help.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The great unknown truth and I won't debate it with usertech/wannabees is that even though heat exchangers crack UNLESS the crack opens up and air gets thru and forces the flames out the burners/front or causes bad combustion a huge majority never cause safety issues.

With the S shaped duracurve of the Lennox I have never had a flame rollout or problem even though most of them crack at the back.

The old school straight heat exchangers were the worst as they crack and split wide open.

However a crack is a crack and can get bigger so the exchanger needs to be changed.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

No need for debate, I know that. the natural draft water-heaters with no vent safeties are far more dangerous.

just saying, it's a crap furnace.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

I have not found the dura curve heat exchangers to be any particular problem other than most of their cracks tend to occur just out of line of direct or mirrored sight. Nothing that a good skinny flexible camera scope can't overcome.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The Whisper heat just like any furnace if you got lucky and got a good one could go for 20-25 years. There are 30+ yr old Pulse furnaces still running with original parts. I have seen the circuit board last 25+ yrs on them and they vibrate like crazy.

Just the luck of the draw.

The Whisperheat is a pain in the azz to work on but Lennox made a fortune on them. Was the only 80% efficient furnace w/o a noisy ventor fan. VERY quiet furnace and people appreciate that.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

My opinion doesn't count because i'm not a tech - i'll post it anyhow...

Calling a natural draft unit with a damper on the burner inlet 80% efficient is laughable. The draft hood vents air up the stack continuously when off.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

OK...A bit of a segway but
This made me wonder about the Bymetal Ameritherm dampers that came out to address this issue with natural draft appliances in the 80's. 
Some one called me the other day because a real estate building inspector said their bymetal damper should be removed whether it was operating OK or not.

I remember them needing to be tested during servicing to insure that they took less than 60 seconds to fully open but can't remember there being any official notice asking for them to be removed whenever found.

Retirement just can't come soon enough.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We had a bunch of them and I don't know of a notice to remove them. Legally it had a sticker saying test annualy so that covered their butt. Ours were made by Autoflo I believe. When I ran into them (most are gone now) I would show the customer how they caused flue gas to spill from being very slow to open from age and they wanted to get rid of it. Replaced them with a piece of pipe.

The Whisperheat falls into category #2

Pilot light 50-60% efficient

Mid efficiency with no pilot

High efficiency condensing.

They were marketed as "mid" efficiency.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

AFUE is a bit of a numbers game which i'm sure varies from the reality in the field just like car fuel economy ratings do.

What happens when the unit is in the field is what matters. 

The manufacturers I'm sure know the game and tweak the equipment to get the highest rating. Add dampers where they shouldn't be used, ship the furnace from the factory at a high blower speed/low high limit, throw time delays on blowers to get higher seer rating, etc, etc.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Really, Friend:biggrin2:
Governments dictate to the Industry what the minimum SEER rating can be to allow a unit to be sold in Canada and the US.

That is for energy conservation which prevents global warming etc which you seem to be in favor of. Not because Lennox or Trane want to build higher efficiency or think it is a good idea out of the blue.

Most of the HVAC supply goes to California and hotter US States so the manufacturers build fans and set them for where most deliveries will go and it sure ain't Canada. 10% of the market is Canada and I kinda doubt they even know we exist at Lennox in Dallas. Peanuts we are in the grand scheme of things.

Time delay blowers and TX valves with equalizers etc are necessary to get the SEER and a lot has to do with utility rebates. If MB Hydro or Hydro One or whatever ON elec calls themselves now wants to give out huge amounts of $$ in rebates then the SEER has to be there and not just close. There is no magic hat that you can pull a rabbit out of and get SEER so they do it however is mechanically and thermodynamically possible.

Also bear in mind where most of the AC units go and how they need to do more de-humidification and you get a idea of what goes where and why. No conspiracies just plain do what it takes to get the SEER of AFUE.

In Canada we demand 95% efficiency now so we are picky about gas burning and the US is more concerned with cooling due to our different climates.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm pro energy conservation, anti-technicality. 

The regulations are better than nothing - better to have them than not. They aren't necessarily the most accurate.

For example as u probably know the following - u're an expert: SEER goes up the difference between seer and steady state, hot weather EER skyrockets so the savings on peak demand aren't that great on 16+. with the super high seer needing a large coil latent capacity suffers especially when cycled - runs a warmer coil, takes longer for the coil to get down to operating temp.

I care about what happens in the real world. I'm not fond of using an expensive ecm motor loaded with electronics to get an extra seer point, txvs which are all from third world countries and break.

Also no point with 95% vs 90% furnaces where the actual efficiency falls short due to the lack of comissioning done in resi install. splitting hairs.

Better to keep it simple; I was very much for bumping the minimum from 10 to 13. 90% gas furnaces? Good idea except with a finished basement.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It is not just about 1 SEER point. It is about comfort.

ECM fans save NRG but they also can run slower than any PSC without cheezy speed controls which don't work well anyway and can damage motors.

They are constant speed or torque which a PSC cannot do and provide good circulation at lower speeds etc etc.

People want higher efficiency and more features for comfort reasons and what the consumer wants and can afford he can get. Cars have to be complex to get the fuel mileage and longevity they do now.

Back in the 60's and 70's once you got 100,000 miles you either rebuilt the engine or scrapped the car. Brakes were not great and tires were not as safe either. Now you can get 3-400,000 miles on a engine and yeah it is more complex but it lasts longer so it pays off. We also have airbags and roll cage construction and people are not dying as much.

I am not interested in debating SEER and EER etc and quite frankly could not give a da*mn about it.

Build a good quality well sealed house with 3 pane low E argon windows and R40 in the attic and you are set.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Once you're at design temp, you're not going to get much better efficiency, without touching efficiencies of the motors themselves. This includes adding rate earth magnets in the rotors. (ECM, and higher end compressor windings and types, magnetic bearings, etc.) 

The biggest boost to efficiencies however, running at reduced capacity, with optimal lift ratio. This means controlling condenser fans, evap fans, and compressor capacity, along with a TXV or EXV. You see this in new ductless splits. You also see it in 30 year old rooftops and chillers. This isn't new, and I'm sure yuri and the other techs here have seen over the decades. In fact, Daikin has been making vrf for 34 years. 

My predecessor cut the electricity bills to an office building by 30% simply by adding unloaders and fan cyclers. (That's the total electric bill, not just for the a/c, 20 years ago) Essentially, raising the seer several points. I'll even take efficiency measurements the next time I'm there. 

What we did was to use 2 very large coils for only 66% of capacity. (indoor is actually only 33% if you count the whole surface during low load) However, the condenser fans are cycled to maintain near 80-90% coil usage. It significantly reduces the electricity usage of the condenser fans, and keeps the compressor at it's maximum performance envelope. It also allows longer run times, achieving steady state efficiencies for a larger ratio of time. (peak startup of large compressors are quite expensive) 

Those "super high seer" units with larger coils move less air over the coil to reduce the condenser fan motor rating. The cooling performance, pressures and temps are nearly otherwise identical. It's engineered to be so. The balance is how big is your back yard compared to how efficient the condenser fan motor/blade is. IE. A bigger unit isn't so desirable but neither is a noisy power hungry fan motor. 

Furnaces are similar, where it's a balance of how much electricity is consumed for operation compared to the fuel consumed for heat. It also is the balance is the overall price of a retrofit the potential savings for each climate. In Ontario, some of our customers have seen significant drops in NG usage just by upgrading from 80 to 95% boilers. The only thing that will erase that is a poor install, with inadequate controls. 

Cheers!


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm sure that when you get into commercial stuff - properly commissioned and engineered with high duty cycles (like needing cooling almost the entire year) the energy savings add up with the more complex stuff. Commercial property owners are dealing with utility bills in the thousands each month.

With resi it's different - the contractor and buyer ideally would look at the situation and determine if ecm motors, variable capacity is worth it. The government shouldn't force things with unintended consequences.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Higher SEER's and AFUE's are to benefit the user and the world as a whole. While the end user may only see a small savings. The total amount of energy savings a country may see on 1,000,000 units is something to talk about. 

Even Canada with all of its hydro damns doesn't produce enough electric to be able to forgo the use of nuclear, and fossil fuel power plants. 

Most places don't stay at or reach design conditions for more then 100(there are those areas that are exceptions) hours a year. But need cooling or heating for 1,000 to 3,000 or more hours a year. Design conditions are less then 2.5% conditions of the year.

My area averages 5200 HDDs. So only 130 of those HDDs are at design conditions.
At 1200 CDDs, only 30 of those CDDs are at design conditions.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

We live in a Democracy and the Canadian and US Governments are elected by the people and decide what seems the best for us with our input. The environmental movement has a lot of political influence on our Governments and that is just how Democracies work.

We are concerned with global warming and if they decide ECM motors are good and save NRG then you can either stay or leave and go live in China where they have no concern about the environment and you can breath filthy air.

ECM motors are used in a lot of different applications besides furnace fans. They have small versions in walk in coolers etc etc. 

Canada could produce enough Hydro elec for the entire country but transmitting it from Manitoba to BC would be VERY expensive due to the distance and nobody wants huge power lines running everywhere. Plus the Provinces don't get along well when it comes to sharing. We like to sell it to the US rather than each other. With our oil and elec exports/sales to the US our 2 countries are married pretty deep and fortunately get along.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Sometimes the road to hell can be paved with good intentions (the politicians who don't know very much making policies with unintended consequences) and it's not only about environment, the main thing is energy security.

Do not get me wrong; I am not one of those right wing resource depletion, polluting denying nuts.


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## HVACDave (Oct 16, 2007)

It's all about availability and demand to get the energy saving devices utilized in different areas. Rebates get consumers interested in various products for the residential market, and even some of the commercial market (eg. LED lighting rebates). In the commercial market ECM motors can have a significant impact on electrical consumption as an average supermarket can use up to $250k/yr in energy for the refrigeration systems alone. Movement to multiple compressors (rack systems) and ECM motors in all the display units, combined with heat reclaim for building heat and domestic water heat can greatly increase the overall efficiency of the operation, while at the same time decreasing electricity usage by upwards of 35%. 

industrially, and even some large commercial applications for HVAC have moved to low resistance centrifugal units with magnetically levitated bearings resulting in energy savings of over 60% of traditional compression units. (Turbocor) 

The quest for higher energy efficiencies will continue to increase in all market segments (lighting, HVAC, water usage etc.) as the costs for these necessities and conveniences will only continue to increase. 

The debate on whether it is a better option, delivers a longer life cycle, etc. is ongoing, but in reality is not driven by the consumer or the contractor, but by the government and the manufacturers who have the vested interest in producing more efficient products that will hopefully cause less harm to the environment. At least that is my take on it.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, the resi market is a trickle down effect of Commercial.

I worked with VFD drives 14 yrs ago at the Convention Centre in Calgary. We had them on all our big fan units and married to a Siemens BAS. Total digital control. We had VFD York Chillers we could run in the winter and had to. We could do some AMAZING unloading of them. Now they probably have them for cooling tower drives.

They build a super energy efficient new Safeway store in North Kildonan a few years ago like you described and I imagine that is a model for all their new stores.

I think user hangs out on some other HVAC sites and people are moaning and groaning about the price we charge to install a ECM motor in a furnace vs the energy savings. They break even IMO if you run it 24 hrs a day for circ. Probably save lots of $$ in high elec $$ cost places like Ontario and California etc.

You can still get PSC motors in furnaces although I imagine in a few years the manufacturers will be forced to go with at least a X13 motor as standard.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> I think user hangs out on some other HVAC sites and people are moaning and groaning about the price we charge to install a ECM motor


No - ECMs are great when used in the right applications. 

The problem becomes when people in resi do it to just to get a government rebate or it becomes mandated.

It's very much like mandating the use of CFL or LED light bulbs. (which the canadian government isn't doing BTW - they're setting standard which can be reached with halogen)

CFLs and LEDs like ECM motors are great when they're used in the right applications. Use them in enclosed fixtures, certain other bad apps by "john q public" or have "john q public" style polticians/environmentalists push them without knowing the implication and you could get a disaster.

Same with ECMs; they great - they aren't so great when "john q public" style salespeople who don't have the knowledge you guys have put them on undersized, high static duct systems because of the rebates or government mandates. (...the motor ends up drawing more current to get the proper airflow and the module has a short life)

x13? Word is just on "the internets" that they've been a total disaster especially in high moisture environments.

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> I think user hangs out on some other HVAC sites and people are moaning and groaning about the price we charge to install a ECM motor in a furnace vs the energy savings.


Attack the character rather than the message - classic on forums.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

I have never heard of X13's being a disaster. Have sold lots of them and we have damp basements where I am. 

In a perfect world we would check the duct sizing and rip out all the undersized stuff and reno each house while we are at it but it is not a perfect world and nobody is going to pay for that or want to do it. We work with what we have and yeah I don't own a ECM as my ducts are big and I don't recirc air and my elec is cheap. However if a customer wants continuos circ I like them and they have ball bearings instead of sleeves and can do a lot more than a PSC. They are also a LOT quieter with ramping and we can fine tune the cfms. Not so with a PSC.

People need to be educated about HVAC but in the real world that won't happen. I don't like our Senate or politicians and non proportional representation either. It is a everyone for himself, keep your hands off my pile world.

At least in Canada we don't have the terrorist or gang or social problems a lot of other Countries have so I am not complaining.

My water bill keeps going up because of new pollution standards for our waterways and new treatment plants we have to get but I have no say in the matter. Just pay the bill and live as best as you can.


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

Actually, that specific setup was with vvt. 50% runtime on cool, before switching back to heat for significant portions of the year. This is where the energy savings really piled up, we weren't over cooling with 15 ton stages, and having it shut off before the control cycle. You can get cheaper condenser fan speed control that does a very good job of saving energy while maintaining peak compressor efficiency. (around $150 for scr based, the last I checked before the currency dropped like a stone) 

Cheers!


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