# Metal roof???



## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

I got a shingled roof. Looks like 4 layers. They are old and worn. I got someone who says we can put a metal roof right over them. Is this a good idea? Or should we have to do a complete tear of, put down some plywood, and then the metal roof? I'm not sure how metal roofs work exactly? Any help would be great. Thanks...:thumbup:


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## perpetual98 (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm curious about metal roofs too. I can't imagine anyone would tell you that it's OK to put a metal roof over 4 layers of shingles though. Maybe someone will chime in with some good links for metal roofs.


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## ajh359 (Nov 22, 2007)

I put a new metal roof on over the shingles, and put foam insulation on too. I see a big difference in the summer with AC not coming as much. The retailer I got it from leave the shingles on. He also said the lighter the color the more heat reflection you will get.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

That just seems insane to me, and probably against the code too.

The integrity of a metal roofing system depends on the flashing details and the fastening of the system. Going through that many layers of old, brittle and decrepit aged roofing shingles would seem that the fasteners would be too prone to back out due to expansion and contraction and also by the toggling effect.

That would not be adviseable and would probably cost you much more money to fix correctly in the long, or even short run.

Ed


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## ajh359 (Nov 22, 2007)

I only had one layer of shingles.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I was referring to the poster who already has 4 layers on now, which already is in violation of any codes I know of.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Its a house...*

Its a house in upstate NY in a small little town. I don't think its breaking any codes. I'm not positive though. We bought the house and it was like this. This roof must be at least 40 years old...

Guess I shouldn't put Metal up over 4 layers of shingles???


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

It most definitely is against the national codes, which all towns reference, even if they do not enforce them.

You may be mistaken if you counted the layers yourself, because each layer of shingles look like 2 layers to the untrained eye.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*ok so if it has 2...*

Yeah i could be wrong. Maybe it only has 2 layers of shingles. Then can I just put a metal roof over it? Does this make a difference? Again it is a very old roof. And their have been leaks and water damage to ceilings inside...


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## wire_twister (Feb 19, 2008)

Around here people will strip the roof with 1x4 lumber then install the metal on that, seems to work, but I wouldent care for the extra weight. I put a metal roof on my house when I built it, no plywood decking just 2x6 strips across the trusses and metal screwed down to the strips kinda like a barn roof. Oh, lest I forget to mention if you use this method count on r-40 attic insulation to hold out the cold.


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*here are some pictures please help guys*

Pictures of the inside roof structure. Any advice would be welcome! Thank You all :thumbsup:


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*a few shots of the outside of the roof*

The outside. :thumbsup:

And some of the damage it has done inside


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## roofboy (Jan 18, 2007)

Hello,

With the snow load that you may get each year I would advise you to tear it all off and start fresh. I install a lot of metal and the added weight of that plus the snow, plus the old roofing would be too much weight(IMO). Ed makes some very good points about the codes and such also.


Keith


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

new york should only allow 2 layers,and if it`s upstate we`re talking mega snow,basically you`re better to remove an old roof with moisture problems than to cover it and allow it to get worse underneath,possibly even grow mold,rip it fix damage,then do the metal-the guys are right,especially the guy who mentioned r-40 insulation,and the weight of the snow load as Keith mentioned


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

With the amount of moisture that has already affected the rafters and decking, not to even mention the soaking of the insulation, this should be a "No-Brainer" to decide on removing the existing roof layers, whether 2 layers or 4 layers, just for the fact of repairing the wet and rotted wood and to have access to the attic to efficiently replace the wet insulation.

From your interior attic photos, I would guess that this home once had a cedar shingle roof on it, which lasted at least 50 years on top of skip shething, space board decking. Then, either after an additional layer of composition shingles were added, which would have lasted 20-30 years, the previous owner had the roofs removed down to the skip sheathing. The decking is now solid sheating, with either the gaps being filled in, or the new sheathing being applied over the spaced decking.

I doubt, from your photos, that you have 4 layers on there currently, but you still need to remove the old roofs to do the repair properly and replace the rotted sections. There also may be more evidence of mold growth gowing on, as the section of rafters in one photo clearly showed significant growth already.

When the roof is being done, ensure that you have a properly balanced system of fresh air intake ventilation and roof top, ridge exhaust ventilation.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*hoping to*

Hoping to do a complete tear off. Then put down all new plywood and put down shingles or possibly a metal roof. Planning to get it done this coming spring. I can't see getting it done in the winter. Sounds like Spring would be better. Thanks for all the Help :thumbsup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Make sure that the contractors all have the opportunity to get inside of your attic to inspect the rafters. 

It looks like, from your 3rd and 4th photos, that there may be too much rot occurring on those rafters to be comfortable with and there are probably more that you did not take photos of too.

They probably can "sister" in new rafters right next to them, unless they are falling apart.

Ventilation will be key, though. Also, you probably do not have to replace all of the plywood decking on top of the skip sheathing, but just to cover you butt, get an option for pricing that out with your contractor. Most of the surface applied decking is probably still in good shape, just not where thew leak stains are located.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

I got a quote for between 4-5K. He wants to do a tear off and then put up plywood and Architectural shingles. And he was talking about putting up ridge vents. Does this sound about right? Don't think he said anything about adding rafters though...

He said I could do a metal roof if wanted also. Its up to me. Metal would be a little more.

He is pretty well known in the area and has done several roofs.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

There are so many factors that go into a proper roofing project. 

Firstly, disregarding anyones price, which contractor that you interviewed had the most knowledge and the most detailed specifications?

If it is not written down in the proposal, it is not part of the contract.

If the contractor who gave you the most confidence winds up being the higher priced contractor, please take the time to set up an additional appointment with him, and show the other proposal. Ask where he sees any vast disparities in the specifications.

If those differences are significant enough to you and you can see the benefit of the additional value of a properly trained and quality oriented work force and also if the specifications for the protection of your home, which is probably your most valuable asset, are the most proficient and precisely detailed, you may want to consider using that contractor instead.

Your roof is steep. It is dangerous to work on. Don't let anybody fool you about how they never have any accidents. They can happen.

Does the contractor use empoloyees or farm the job out to subcontractors? Is so, is the subcontractor licensed? Is he insured? Does he pay his employees with actual wages or does he hide the fact from the government and misclassify them as individual subcontractors? 

How can you find that information out? Ask for the crew foremans name and one other roofer that will be on the crew working on your home. Then ask for the most current check stub which shows the taxes deducted. If they fail to provide you with this validation, they have something to hide. Period! Don't trust them from that point on.

Here, I just recently posted this in another topic thread, but it will be a valuable guide for you on how to choose a good contractor and what questions to ask them.

Follow the guidelines and most importantly, check on the items I just spoke of and also previous references.

Also, ask for a home owner who they had a problem job with and how they straightened it out to everyones mutual satisfaction. If they have been in business for any reasonable length of time, they will have had some obstacles in their desire to achieve customer satisfaction.

It is not as important that they had any problems, but more so, how did they react to resolve them. That will show their true character.

Ed


*Roofing is Not Brain Surgery.* *There are many Wrong ways to roof a house. But…There is only…**O**ne “**R**ight **W**ay”,** By Following All of the Manufacturers Specifications. Over 90 % of All Roofs Done - DO NOT Qualify for the Manufacturers Long Term Warranty!!! ( According to studies by GAF Roofing Corp., Air Vent Inc., & Alcoa )*
*10 Very Important Tips You Should Always Follow*

*“What You Should Know Before Hiring Any Contractor!!!”*​

1) *RELIABILITY:* Verify that the contractor you call has been in business in your area for At Least 10 Years. Over 85 % of all roofing contractors are out of business in less than 5 years, way before the warranty expires and before many roofing problems begin to show up and cause problems. 85 % of those remaining do not last till the 10th year. (Department of Labor Statistics)

2) *INTERVIEW:* Make time to meet with any contractor you call, in person, at your home to review the proposal and detailed specifications. Try to select a Knowledgeable, Organized, Experienced, and Locally Established contractor who will take a personal interest in your roofing project. Choose one who has an established track record of many similar roofing projects done in your local area. If they will farm out your roofing job to an unknown subcontractor, you should interview them as well. 

3) *REFERENCES:* Insist on a minimum of at least 20 - 50 recent job references & also several from each year they say they were in business. Ask for customer testimonials. Drive past several of the jobs to check for proper venting, flashing details, and general appearance. Ask previous customers if they were satisfied and if they would use them again. Contact your local building inspector for verification.

4) *BUYER BEWARE:* Be suspicious if any contractor requires you to get the roofing permit. The party who applies for the permit is responsible for building code compliance. What happens when the roofing specs do not conform to the local codes? Why won’t they be responsible for it? Also, Do Not Ever pay more than 50 % when paying a deposit.

5) *ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER:*Make sure that the contractor actually has a physical location that you can find if you need to locate them in the future, not just a mailbox etc., drop box. Do they have an actual office and material storage shop or just work out of the back of their pick up truck. Make sure they have an actual local telephone # and not just a cell phone. When problems occur, it is much easier to find someone if you already know how to, in advance. Check out his drivers license address.

6) *LICENSE, INSURANCE AND BONDS:* Insist on receiving a copy of the Contractors State of Illinois Roofing License, General Liability Insurance, Workers Compensation Insurance and their Roofing Bond. Don’t just assume they have it because they tell you so. They should have enough pride in themselves to include a copy for each customer.

7) *PROPOSAL AND/OR CONTRACT:*Insist on a very thorough and detailed written proposal and examine it for complete descriptions of the work and specifications, including approximate length of the job and payment procedures. Verbal agreements should be added to the written agreement. You *MUST*, by law, be advised in writing of your 3-Day “Right To Rescind” if you change your mind and receive all of your deposit money refunded to you.

8) *EMPLOYEES OR SUB-CONTRACTORS:* If your contractor farms out the job to a sub-contracting crew, they too must supply you with their Roofing License, General Liability and Workers Compensation Insurance and Roofing Bond. If they don’t and someone gets hurt, you may be liable. The sub-contractor should be interviewed as well. Dedicated trained experienced Employees are more desirable due to continuing training and experience.

9) *CONTRACTOR TRADE ASSOCIATIONS:* Quality control begins with dedication, the amount of proper knowledge and previous training from past projects and from advanced learning through many contractor trade associations. Memberships in any related trade association and certificates of completion from manufacturers product training classes authenticate the more dedicated professional.


10) *USE YOUR NOGGIN:* 85 % of all construction lawsuits involve roofing related problems. You only have one chance to make the *“Right 1st Choice”. *If one contractor tells you something extremely different than another contractor, then either do your own research or have the contractor provide documentation to justify and support his analysis, especially about Intake & Exhaust Ventilation, Plywood vs. OSB Particle Board, Ice & Water Shield & Flashings.

*You need to be concerned with the initial price only once… But you are going*
*to be concerned about **Quality…**for many years to come!!!*
*The following named Roofing Contractor is an esteemed selected board member of the Professional Roofers Advisory Council, (PRAC). If You Want Solutions, Not Problems, Call…*


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Thank You Ed*

Ed thanks for all these tips. Yeah I want to get it done right. I want it to last a long, long time. And doing it right will be the way for that to happen...

I have had several different estimates already. From 5K-13,5000. I will continue to have.... Thanks again...:thumbsup:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

not to correct anyone but the plywood doesn`t show in the pics,what you see is probably 1x8-10 decking with 1x2s filling the spaces,he definitely should have the entire roof resheathed over the 1xs,I also see poor spacing on the beams,and areas where the beams appear to be missing and broken,so you should be looking at that also in addition to the mold growth visible in some pics---I`m a rockland county roofer--where exactly are you in upstate new york ???


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I couldn't really tell from the photos I mentioned, if that was plywood decking already over laid on top of the skip sheathing, or if it was already filled in with firring strips.

We need people like you, with better eyesight on here more often to correct my vision.

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

no,I just have seen the hacks pull these maneuvers before,thought it didn`t look right,and when I looked close,I realized what it was,when they put that 1x2 filler in,god help you if you hit it with a nail ,it will break,this house could be very close to me,looks like spring valley or hillburn,but the older towns have a lot of these older homes,when I worked for someone else,I would always find my name on contracts to these style houses(dogs/pigs),and the boss would smile and say ,It`s because you do them so well-lol


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*I am in.....*

Ever here of Hornell NY? I'm very close to that. Feel like coming down for some work?


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

what county is that in?


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Steuben county*

ITs in Steuben County... Know any good roofers from Steuben???


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

have to figure out where steuben is (lol),is that by utica,syracuse,newark (ny),canada ,give me some landmarks


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*lets see*

About an hour and a half South of Rochester... Maybe three or 4 hours South of Canada... Have you ever heard of Livingston County? Monroe County?

I think I am like 4 and a half hours away from you in Rockland County...


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

at least 3 or more looking at the map,closest I know a roofer is newark,and that`s far for him--you have an old home,the details are what`s gonna make or break the roof,I think a proper bid would be closer to 10-12,000.00$ to get it done right and not leave things out ,be very thorough as you don`t want to be doing it again in 5 yrs,the homeowners who think their roofs look pretty usually have no clue as to what`s proper,be sure any rafters are repaired,any plywood installed is cut at and secured to rafters(more plywood waste)with odd size rafters do not let him end plywood off the rafters and "rabbit"nail it to the pine boards ,it will come up thru the roof if you do--post your proposals here so ed,I,or other pros can evaluate them for you-good luck-the guy in newark is marshall exteriors


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Here is some information on the company TRG referred.

Adam Olschewske
newark, NY 14513 
Username: marshall exteriors 
Website: http://www.marshallexteriorsny.com

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

and that`s an internet friend,never seen his work personally,but people speak well of him


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Thats the same way I know of him too.

He does have good credentials on his site though.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Looks like...*

Looks like this guy has a Pro business for sure. But that usually means Big Bucks for the person getting the work done.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Price is in the eye of the beholder. If a 30 year roof last 30 years, because someone spent the proper investment initially, or if a 30 year roof only lasts 12-15 years, but was half the price, which one was the better deal?

Remember, now in that shorter time frame, the costs wil have gone up substantially and you will possibly be paying to have the erroneously installed work previously installed, removed down to the decking once again. 

Who is actually doing the job "Precisely" to the manufacturers specifications, especially when it comes to properly balancing the ventilation. I know from studies by the major manufacturers, that over 90% do not adhere to their specifications, and therefor, would have a warranty that is nul and void and worthless from day one.

I am not stating that I know if this contractor does the highest quality, only that his personal knowledge shared on another forum seems to indicate that he would.

That is why you "Interview" each contractor being considered and you "Check References" on similar projects and you get the "Most Detailed Proposal" possible, leaving no doubt what is and is not agreed to get done. You also ask for a customer that they had a problem with, in any manner and follow up on how well the customer felt the situation was handled and resolved.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Yeah....*

I appreciate all the help. Your only being Honest. And I really appreciate that. Your advice has been great. Yeah quality costs money. And your right "when done right" should last a long time. Better then getting some hack job done. Thanks Again. :thumbsup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I am really glad that you see it that way. Comments like that are part of what makes spending time on this forum worthwhile.

Good or bad, I do try to be accurate and honest, to the best of my abilities.

Thanks,

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Your.....*

Your very welcome. I appreciate the time you spend on this forum. :thumbsup:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

hope the mailman doesn`t fall off your roof without proper workmans comp and roofing insurance


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

roofboy said:


> Hello,
> 
> With the snow load that you may get each year I would advise you to tear it all off and start fresh. I install a lot of metal and the added weight of that plus the snow, plus the old roofing would be too much weight(IMO). Ed makes some very good points about the codes and such also.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure the snow load would be of concern here for a couple reasons:

1) The pitch of the roof wouldn't allow any snow to stay on the roof 
2)I see plywood sheathing has already been installed(as evidenced by the pics)so there may only be two layers on that roof.

*As mentioned by Ed.
I doubt, from your photos, that you have 4 layers on there currently

* If you try to count the layers of existing roofing from the eaves or rakes,it's possible that you are counting the starter course or solger course as a layer.
Since plywood has been installed already,I doubt there could be more than two layers because roofing practices 40 years ago(the age of the two existing layers)was to just keep adding over the existing.

A lot of Inspectors will allow a roof-over of metal roofing with two existing layers of asphalt because of the relative weightlessness of the metal roofing and the fact that the snow will not remain on the roof. 

1)I would however replace/reinforce broken and missing rafters.
2)Check the structural integrity of the moisture laden areas.
Is this old water damage?From recent leaks?

When addressing the ventilation aspect of the project,pay attention to the area where the exterior walls meet the roof.
I these older homes,the balloon framing would allow heat to escape up the exterior framing to the attic area very easily.Insure that the bays of the framing are insulated to prevent heat loss into the attic which could add to excessive moisture problems.


Check with your local official for his interpitation of the codes as far as the # of layers with a metal roof.

Depending on your budget and the local codes,a roof -over may be a viable remedy here.

Just make sure ,as mentioned in other replies,that there isn't a lot of wet molding wood.
It's hard to tell from the pics if the stains are old or new and
I've seen a lot of homes where the roof had been repaired and the ceilings never repainted.Yes,even 40 years later.

Just trying to cover all the options for you and offer a secondary opinion.


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*We had...*

We had a land contract with someone. They lived in our house for about 3 years. Not sure exactly how old the leaks are. Their are three leaks that I can see. One in our open room upstairs. A small leak that is letting water in. The other is a leak in an extra room that we have upstairs in the crawl space. And finally our bathroom ceiling downstairs on the main level has a leak. That section of the roof is actually missing some shingles. Their are a few outside on the ground that fell of that section of the roof. I'll include some pictures. 

I would love to just do a roof over. But there is mold all over the outside of the shingles in plain site. At least on one section of the roof. Plus the molded ceilings and what looks to be mold on the plastered walls also. Got to think I just get a tear off done and then let them put up new plywood "if needed" and new shingles. Then start on some interior work...Walls and ceilings...

Below are pictures of the open room leak. Crawl space leak and Bathroom ceiling leaks.

That 2nd skinny piece of wood up is where the open room leak is. That is right after it rained. That Dark Brown spot there.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

After seeing these pics ,I think a complete tear off and re-shingle or metal roof would be the way to go.


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*I thought you were going to say that...*

Yeah got to agree. These leaks have done some real damage. Thanks for the info though.:thumbsup:


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Got to think this is what it looks like...*

Did a little research and i got to think this is what my roof is basically...

So I'm not going to need any plywood?? once the roof is torn off and they put up a new one?

Or am I going to be putting down New Sheathing??? is Sheathing also known as OSB???

Those whitish-looking narrow boards... I believe those were the original roofing strips when the house was built. In 1907 most houses were roofed with cedar shakes, *not* asphalt composition shingles. Wood shake or shingle roofs do not require a full deck of sheathing, only narrow strips of wood spaced about 6 inches apart. At some point in the past century they added wood planks between those narrow boards.















The old solid wood sheathing had many holes like these.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> With the amount of moisture that has already affected the rafters and decking, not to even mention the soaking of the insulation, this should be a "No-Brainer" to decide on removing the existing roof layers, whether 2 layers or 4 layers, just for the fact of repairing the wet and rotted wood and to have access to the attic to efficiently replace the wet insulation.
> 
> From your interior attic photos, I would guess that this home once had a cedar shingle roof on it, which lasted at least 50 years on top of skip shething, space board decking. Then, either after an additional layer of composition shingles were added, which would have lasted 20-30 years, the previous owner had the roofs removed down to the skip sheathing.* The decking is now solid sheating, with either the gaps being filled in,* or the new sheathing being applied over the spaced decking.
> 
> ...


 
The severely rotted decking should still get replaced.

No need for new plywood on top, as long as the roofing contractor who is installing the shingles does not get the nailing line in alignment with the fill in boards. Those firring strips were added after the original cedar shingle layer plus whatever amount of layers of asphalt composition shingles were torn off ??? many years ago. Those firring strips, or whitish boards definitely were NOT installed in 1907.

The problem with nailing the shingles into the thin firring strips, would be that they either crack or not supply enough holding pull out resistance strength for the nails from the newly applied shingles.

Ed


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Got ya*

Thanks Ed. I got some good questions to ask some local roofers now. Thanks for all he info. No new plywood is good. Replacing the rotted decking shouldn't be to bad. Going to get a few estimates now. Thanks again. :thumbsup:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

I would recommend new plywood!!!,when they cover that deck,and then gun nail the roof,you won`t know they missed till the nails are popping up thru the new roof-don`t be silly


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

as I wrote previously:
not to correct anyone but the plywood doesn`t show in the pics,what you see is probably 1x8-10 decking with 1x2s filling the spaces,he definitely should have the entire roof resheathed over the 1xs,I also see poor spacing on the beams,and areas where the beams appear to be missing and broken,so you should be looking at that also in addition to the mold growth visible in some pics---
__________________
*"If it`s worth doing,It`s worth doing right!!" :thumbup: *


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*sounds like...*

Yeah sounds like no plywood. And just go with having the whole roof resheathed. :wink:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

resheathing is installing plywood over the entire existing roof


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*it is...*

Can you tell I know nothing about roofing, lol :thumbsup:

ok so all new plywood it is!!!! Which is also known as "resheathing" :thumbsup:

roofing God your in Rockland County. I wish you were in "Steuben County" :-(


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

thanks for the compliment--be sure not to remove the old sheathing,as that is a lot of your structural support with this old house,better to strengthen it by sheathingt over,then do any necessary repairs to framing from below-best of luck-use a good contractor,it sucks to use someone cheap,then have to redo it long before you should have to :yes:


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## Tdoggy187 (Jan 20, 2008)

*i hope to*

Yeah I hope to use a good one. when exactly I'm not sure of. Hopefully soon though. Got to think some rain will be coming with Spring right around the corner.


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