# Looking For A Sub $100 Circular Saw



## ihildreth (Sep 12, 2009)

I have one of the el-cheapo Ryobi saws at home. It does all right even on dense or pressure treated wood so long as the blade isn't dull, and can bevel up to 50 degrees or so. Probably a decent saw for occasional mostly light duty work.


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## jte1130 (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks. The price is definitely right on the Ryobi tools. I was just wondering about the quality. I'm not doing any heavy construction so it probably is just right for me. I also noticed they had a table saw for about $119 that I was considering.


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## Kevin M. (Nov 26, 2009)

Are you right handed? If so a blade left saw is more user friendly.

These are great saws for the money.









* Porter Cable 423MAG 15 Amp 7-1/4-Inch Circular Saw with Blade Left *

Tool Class: Power Tools - Tool Type: Saws, Knives and Blades 

Featuring an ultra-powerful 15 Amp, 5,800 RPM motor, the Porter-Cable 423MAG delivers precise, straight, and accurate cuts quickly and efficiently. An on-board cord clip makes sure the power cord stays clear of your cutting more ... 

Part #: 423MAG more ..., PORCAB 423MAG 


Sellers Found: 8 
Available Since: Apr 29, 2005

Lowest Price: $79.95


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

jte, I have Festool, Porter Cable, & DeWalt circular saws and I would not be afraid to buy one of these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95004


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Post some candidate specs on amp draw vs. price; at least five samples. A scatterplot should show what's a 'normal' $/A ratio. The less dollars per amp the better, other things being equal. 

From above, 15A for $80 = ~$5 per amp and $40 for 10A = $4 per amp. I'd be suspicious of way low dollars per amp. And Grainger had one for $10/amp so that's probably the high end of the range.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

The PC MAGs are an excellent choice, even if they come to a bit over $100
Available for lefty or righty, it's not a tool you'll "outgrow" (find it's limitations fall short of your needs) even if you find more ambitious projects to use it for
And it is a joy to use, so you may find yourself using it more than you thought

A word of warning if shopping for one of these by price alone:
The H/D versions of this model are de-spec'd for H/D's price points
Spend the few extra bucks for a good/real one @ your local tool supply store
It's well worth it

The Ryobis...well...now admittedly I haven't used their circ. saw
But after having two old-school Ryobi tools (pre-H/D buyout and China-sourced tools, these were made in Japan and Taiwan) that work quite well, and have for years... I bit the bait and went for a H/D Ryobi table saw (great price :wink a few years ago
Even after extensive modifications it never cut true or well
As mentioned, it cut PT just fine with a sharp blade, and it was "close enough" for a deck or fence posts and pickets (any PT project)
But it was frustrating (time, material, and caulk consuming) on exterior trim and nearly useless on interior trim
I can only imagine the horrors of trying to use it for bookcases or picture framing
Needless to say I soon got to the point of leaving the back of the truck open, and it on the back, hoping it would fall off and be smashed to pieces

Having used and/or owned some Dewalt and Makita circ saws (among other tools), I would be open to their current offerings (and have considered the smaller Makita circ. and the Dewalt Table Saw offerings more than once)
Again, I would be hesitant to purchase either from H/D, because at least in regards to the the specific tools I was looking for at the time (DeWalt Table Saws, Makita Drill Drivers), the HD offerings were de-spec'd compared to the Tool Supply places

*A Note In Regards To De-Spec'ing:*
Just because a tool offered @ H/D doesn't have the _exact_ same specs as the "same" model (model-wise, there will often be only a letter or number different), and the actual spec. diff. might not appear in the lit. (motor casing material, bushings, options vs. standard, tech. specs. like harshness and vibration and Amp Hrs as compared to just plain Amps) doesn't mean it might not be worth it for _your_ needs
Just go into it with your eyes wide open as to the fact that it's simply not the same tool you saw at "Northeast Tool Supply" for less money
It is a product/tool worth less than what you tried out at NE Tool Sup.
Is it worth it to you?


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

I have always thought that De-Spec'ing for price points was a urban legend. I can't imagine what kind of logistics would be involved in keeping separate supply lines for a PC MAG saw from HD vs another source other than changes in the factory feature set. For example Quik change blade or regular change, or with/without a blade.

There is price a difference for different models of tools just like there is a price difference between different models of cars. To be specific for the case in point the PC 7-1/4" Mag saw with blade left Model #423MAG is carried by HD in two versions. With or without the Quik Change blade.

With:http://www.homedepot.com/Porter-Cab...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Without:http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Other than the blade and blade change, There is no difference between these saws from HD or those from any other source.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I am inclined to agree about the despeccing being an urban legend. Why would a longstanding company want to compromise it's reputation selling poorly made knockoffs with their name on it to Home Depot. That would be a very poor marketing strategy.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

Slick does bring up a good point that when shopping for a specific model of tool, the buyer has to be aware of what is included. The 7-1/4" #423Mag from HD is a good example because while HD gives these two models their own HD model number, they share the 423Mag label. A casual reading of their specs as seen by the HD web editor not only does not highlight the difference but has errors from the actual factory specs. For example the 2nd 423Mag Specifications state the Horsepower as _'0 hp_'

This to me meant that the two versions of the HD 423MAG had two different editors that were tasked to take the Porter Cable 423Mag specs and write up a web page.

The bottom line is that the buyer has to be aware of just what will be included in that UPS box. I recently got a great deal on a rebuilt DeWalt 16 gauge nailer that came with an optional bump trigger,oil, and safety glasses, but *NO Case*. The Web ad did not say* No Case* but then it's "Buyer Beware" 
.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

*Urban legend:*
Yes, I know, most people would like to think so
But my diligent research into the specific examples I mentioned, along with statements from my friends in the manufacturing industry who actually supply these de-spec'd products, lead me to mention the fact


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

Jim F said:


> I am inclined to agree about the despeccing being an urban legend. Why would a longstanding company want to compromise it's reputation selling poorly made knockoffs with their name on it to Home Depot. That would be a very poor marketing strategy.


You'd think....
H/D sells 20% of all lawn care machinery in this country
If H/D said we need a "de-spec'd" version of your (picture it's you who makes/sells it) popular lawn mower to sell for less, or else we'll drop your line...would you (as a business-person) say "No" to this?
This is why the H/D "Honda" powered lawn mowers (Chinese-made) are nothing like the "real" Honda-powered (Japanese-made) lawn mowers our "Lawn Care Professionals" love and swear by

More generally, if you sell ten million of an item, and can save ten bucks cost on each, you just saved yourself (your share-holders) a million bucks!
If the target customer (one-off project clueless-to-tool-quality DIYers) can't tell the difference...why not do it!

I DO NOT repeat "urban legends" here
I hate them
I am here to DISPEL them

But what I have stated above is in fact completely true

Sorry you don't "get it"


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

slickshift said:


> *Urban legend:*
> Yes, I know, most people would like to think so
> But my diligent research into the specific examples I mentioned, along with statements from my friends in the manufacturing industry who actually supply these de-spec'd products, lead me to mention the fact


 Perhaps your research or your friends can supply one example of how a 423Mag saw from HD is different from one sold by say Amazon.com? Or are they also in on the scam?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

---And now-Back to the question------Listen to Keven M's suggestion--
That Porter Cable saw is a sweet looking tool--It'll give you a lifetime of quality cuts--Cheap-o saws are a constant irritation and slowly become dangerous-as the parts fall off.

I have two old Skill worm drives--they will out live me--I've looked at the Porter Cable--Looks like a fine light saw---I am right handed--Porter is the only side-winder I know of with the blade on the left------Where it belongs for a right handed person.

--Mike--


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Re: de-speccing, can anyone provide evidence [lawsuits, ripoff reports, MBA theses, on-the-record statements, etc] to support either position?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

I kinda' think HD and their suppliers can do whatever they want to. If they're found out they can mount an advertising campaign.

Maybe that's why nobody publishes reliability numbers [MTBF]. It's a gentlemen's agreement.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

There is no crime in making something that uses less expensive parts
So any lawsuit would be unfounded
Its simply a lower quality Mfg, there are tons of things like this on the market
So I would not consider it a rip-off either


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty

and

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define:+fraud&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The thing is, of 20,000 people in prison in MD only 40 are there for fraud. Seems to me it should be the other way 'round.
For a low-risk, potentially high income enterprise, try fraud! Just ask Bernie!


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

People want things to cost less, Mfg's have met that demand
One item has a 90 day warranty, the other has a 2 year warranty
Which do you buy ?
The "implied warranty" (actually real in this case) is that one will not last as long

Warranty on cars is a big deal...many Mfg's include so many fine print details & exclusions that almost make these worthless
Biggest $$ maker is the extended warranty on items purchased
Many stores sell these when you buy an item
What they don't tell you is that the warranty usually starts when you buy the item, NOT once the Mfg warranty has expired

Buyer beware


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

*Oh Gawd*

Oh Gawd
I did not wish this thread would come to this but;
Look...I do not have an agenda
I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" per say
(though that _can_ be a good selling point)
I took this job (as a Mod) to educate DIYers
I do/will not post anything of "opinion" unless I specifically say "IMO"
(or else I would lose this job)

I'm just saying due to my years in retail where I was told repeatedly that de-spec-ing does exist, the tales of my long term friends in the supply-side end of the biz, and my years investigating the "de-specing" of specific examples I've mentioned and investigated (including the cut-away of the aforementioned MAG guide plate), de-spec'ing is real, does exist, and is common in the "Big Box" stores

I'm just saying (as mentioned above) "Buyer Beware" and "You Get What You Pay For"


---Slick


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

You've sold me, but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

slickshift said:


> .......and my years investigating the "de-specing" of specific examples I've mentioned and investigated *(including the cut-away of the aforementioned MAG guide plate)*, de-spec'ing is real, does exist...


 Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?
.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

PaliBob said:


> Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?


(please excuse the exactness of this reply, but I think you and anyone reading this far deserve(s) it, and there are "other considerations" for me and the site if I reply too simply)

Full Disclosure:
This specific example was a few years ago, I'm sorry I don't recall the model number
-though I may be able to find it, they've been out long enough to have had a few generations of the same model so the point may be moot
The MAGS were relatively new at the time, so there were precious few models out
But that made comparing them rather easy



PaliBob said:


> Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?


At the time of my investigation, on the only MAG model(s) available (LH/RH) at the time, the answer is *yes* absolutely, the MAG guide plates on the H/D model(s) were of lower quality
And frighteningly so...on more than one level
Not only was the guide plate on the H/D version easily broken, it frankly had the look and feel (to me) of a poor quality cast aluminum
I was told it was by a few people that it was in fact cast aluminum, but admittedly metallurgy is not something I'm familiar enough with to make that call
It may have been poor quality magnesium for all I know
But at least it was truly of a poorer quality material than represented by the (and here's the second frightening thing) _name_ and marketing of the product
If you know what I mean


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

Yoyizit said:


> You've sold me, but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?


It comes up all the time

Basically, it comes down to lost sales
No manufacturing company wants that

Hypothetically, In the case of a company like P/C, let's say H/D sells 20% of circ. saws
H/D says "we'd like to carry your saws, but we want a lower cost than True Value gets
P/C says "OK, 2% or 3% is about the best we can do and still be profitable"
H/D says: "we want more"
P/C says: " we can't do that unless we de-spec and we don't want to do that"
H/D says: "OK, then take all your stuff back and we won't carry P/C"
Would you want to be the person going back to your share-holders saying you just lost 20% of your business because you refused to lower your costs for a customer base that wouldn't know the difference?

In reality:
H/D sells 20% (or more) of all lawnmowers
John Deere has a heck-of-a-name
H/D wants John Deere in their line-up
But J/D's price is too high for the average H/D consumer
Why not add an off-shore manufactured J/D mower for that market?


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

Yoyizit said:


> ...but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?


It comes up all the time

Perhaps this particular story has little value here, as it deals with non-tool things
But maybe not, as they are all "consumer goods" in the end

In a former life I used to sell (and train salespeople on selling) furniture, including mattresses
Inevitably the "Big Name" Mattress Companies would offer a $99 mattress
Of course, those products were complete crap
Those products were manufactured for the specific reasoning that some people only buy as to price, and those consumers need to be led into the store, and then educated and then "stepped up" to a decent product

Time after time one would be besieged by a $99 expecting consumer with a realistically $300 target saying "but it's a Sealy, ...how does the [name brand supplier] address the possible damage to their reputation?"

Sales my friend, sales...


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

slickshift said:


> .....the MAG guide plates on the *H/D model(s)* were of lower quality........


That is quite an accusation without documentation. I hope you posted your findings on the DIY forum and that your claim of lower quality parts at HD was not just hearsay. You said your investigation was a few years ago but the only thing I found relevant in a search of the DIY Archives using your name was a link that led to a CPSC recall of about 196,000 PC Mag Saws in November of 2005. This was a National Recall not specific to HD and only referred to a problem with the blade guard sticking in the 'UP' position.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f29/circular-saw-recommendation-1513/

Slick, did my search fail to find any your posts that referred to "*guide plates on the H/D version*" of the Mag Saws? I could have missed it, in which case I sincerely apologize. I still do not think that there is a distinct PC Saw model for HD that differs from the standard PC model number.

Here is the 2005 Recall:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06040.html
.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 25, 2006)

I would spend a few extra $ for the Porter Cable saw, and have a functional , quality tool that will perform any task you ask, and will last even an avid DIY a lifetime. Compare by handling the various saws and you will see some of the things that separate the pro saws from the junk (which is often only a modest amount cheaper),pretty readily. For instance, compare these items on the PC to the cheaper stuff

The thick cast base plate, not a flimsy piece of stamped metal that will bend the first time you drop it or knock it off a saw horse.
The nice long supple cord, not a 5' cord with a cheap brittle outer casing that has all the flexibility of a piece of conduit when the temp is under 70 degrees; coupled with a cheap plug that will have a broken blade after you plug/unplug it 20 times.
The overall well balanced feel of the tool in your hands.
Then there is the stuff you can not readily see, but is there in a pro grade tool; thicker, better quality materials for the motor housing, quality bearings instead of bushings, superior trigger quality, higher quality machined gears and tighter tolereances for arbor runout(resulting in less blade wobble/vibration)
IMO, a quality tool makes any job much less frustrating.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

PaliBob said:


> I hope you posted your findings on the DIY forum and that your claim of lower quality parts at HD was not just hearsay.


I have mentioned what I've found in this regard before on different forums such as and including this one

I generally don't repeat hearsay
In the rare chance I do I always put an "I've heard" type disclaimer in the statement


PaliBob said:


> Slick, did my search fail to find any your posts that referred to "*guide plates on the H/D version*" of the Mag Saws? I could have missed it, in which case I sincerely apologize. I still do not think that there is a distinct PC Saw model for HD that differs from the standard PC model number.


Well, I've mentioned the issues, but usually in more general terms
I do not recall if I've specifically mentioned guide plates here

IIRC this particular case was in fact one of those model #"123-XXX" vs "123D-XXX" deals
I remember it most because I had looked at both models more than once and didn't notice the slight difference at first
-in my defense, the L/H R/H designations (or lack of them) did sort of confuse that little difference a bit lol

True, it might not be "solid enough to hold up in court" as I didn't write it down, and conceivably and admittedly I could be confusing that particular case with some other of the many I found over the years
I didn't document many of my findings
...I wasn't intending to find the findings!
I was just comparing prices and specs on tools I needed or was considering
I had no ulterior motive in my searches...I wasn't writing down specifics
I just wanted to know what I was buying and why there seemed to be some price differences, and I was just being more thorough than most average DIY consumers and although wanting the best value, I was not being sold on price alone
I'm sure my retail experience with such model number mumbo-jumbo, product lines, branding (and bringing in cheaper product under the "brand") and de-spec'ing led to my more specific comparisons into the guts of the tools than most
For the most part the information _is_ available...it's just the manufacturers and the retailers have no real reason to slap it on the box in big bold lettering*

And again, that doesn't mean a de-spec'd product isn't worth the price savings for many people (I realize that there's a difference between buying a saw to build a deck, and buying a saw that will survive a drop off a 32' ladder), and also not everything at Big Box stores is de-spec'd
But one should go into it with their eyes and ears wide open


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

* A Good One:
There was a spray sealer that came in a few sizes
Specifically I'm talking about the 8oz (smaller can) and 12oz (larger can)
An independant retailer that carried the product "tipped me off" that the Big Box store didn't have the full amount of product in the cans
Of course I didn't believe him...that's silly...he's just "dissing the competition"
Well, my next trip to the Big Box, I had to wander over there and check
Sure enough, there were the 12oz cans at a decent discount over the "indy" shop
As I'm looking at the can, sure enough, right there on the bottom it said "8oz"
Well...they weren't lying about it...lol


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

slickshift said:


> .....right there on the bottom it said "8oz"
> Well...they weren't lying about it...lol


 So you saw a can that was marked 12oz but only contained 8oz. 

That is great documentation.

Can you post a pic?
.


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## slickshift (Aug 25, 2005)

PaliBob said:


> So you saw a can that was marked 12oz but only contained 8oz.


No...that's the thing...it was the larger _sized_ can (12oz), but if you looked at the label and checked, it _was_ marked "8oz"

I guess it's like the "pound" bags of coffee you see on the shelves that are now really only 12oz (and labeled as such, but we still think of them as a pound), or the bags of potato chips that used to have 6 or 8 oz of chips in them, but now have 4 or 5 oz...but the bag stayed the same size!

I am now sorry I didn't buy the can...it would have been worth it for the pic!

But like I said, I wasn't on a mission...it's just when I started looking into these things the more things I found
The next time I saw the guy I told him what I found and we had a chuckle over how clever it was


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## kredman (Apr 22, 2010)

So, apart from this, does anyone have any other suggestions?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I bought a Rigid saw at HD years ago
I can't remember the cost off hand, I think under $100 but not sure
I've done a ton of stuff on my house & never a problem with the saw


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

If did not already have three circular saws, I would seriously consider this $80 HF 7-1/4" Mag saw with a built in laser guide:

http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-7-1-4-quarter-inch-magnesium-circular-saw-98058.html
.


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