# Raising 1st floor ceiling height



## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

My "expert" advise ????? With no plans or procedure described, you want my expert opinion on if they are good ???

This is a Do-It Yourself Forum. The "expert" is the structural engineer that has been hired to create the plans.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Sorry, I do not have the "Repair" plans on hand to share that. 

The only advise I was looking for was whether raising a ceiling is a doable thing for builders in this day and age and something I should not stress myself with too much as Structural engineer will make sure process of re-reinforcements is in place.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

That is not an easy thing to do. I think you should just settle for the 8' ceilings and a huge discount. I can't imagine how no one noticed this earlier. Poor job site supervision.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Newperson said:


> Sorry, I do not have the "Repair" plans on hand to share that.
> 
> The only advise I was looking for was whether raising a ceiling is a doable thing for builders in this day and age and something I should not stress myself with too much as* Structural engineer will make sure process of re-reinforcements is in place*.


Ayuh,... It's Doable, 'n so long as designed properly, it'll be fine, or better than before,...

However,...
I like sixeightten's idea,....

8' ceilin's are plenty tall, 'n ya might negotiate a serious discount for the mistake,...


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

Do you know what the mark up was to go from 8 to 9' ceilings? Usually several thousand dollars. So you should be entitled to that, plus a few thousand for them not having to spend more than a few thousand to raise everything. Maybe you could turn it into upgrades down the road?


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Thank you all for your input. 
Well, let me say that I had paid $7200 to get the ceiling's upgraded to 9 feet.
The home is pretty much all upgraded. Therefore, if I leave the ceilings at 8 feet, it will bring down the entire look of the place and will shadow the rest of the upgrades in place. To me, the difference between an 8 feet Vs 9 feet ceiling is substantial from a cosmetic purpose. It really does make a huge difference to me and even if the builder pays me 3 times the amount, I would still not be happy. I will not think the builder paying me back 4to5 times which would be a starting point to even consider leaving the ceiling at 8 feet.

I am happy to know that Bondo has given some positives to the notion of making the repairs to correct the height of the ceiling to 9 feet.

The fact that the house just got done with Framing, and 2nd floor and roof, and nothing else, and other work ( electrical, sheet rock, plumbing etc are far way out) I hope this fix is not too intrusive. 

Well, keeping my hopes high on hearing back from the builder about some solid "Repair" Plans which of course I will have an attorney approve before signing off on it. 

At that point, I can probably include them here to see if it makes sense to you all with more knowledge on this than me. 

thanks again fellas!!!


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

Np, I don't know how they will do this job of raising the ceiling, but if it were me, I would want the whole second floor raised up and out of the way. Then tear out ALL the first floor walls and rebuild the first floor with the nine foot high walls, just like it would have been had they done it right the first time. Then set the second floor back on and fasten down. I wouldn't let them either scab on to the existing first floor walls to gain the extra foot, or sister taller studs along side the existing. 
I remember the first house I ever built for a customer was a 5000 sq. ft. Georgian style colonial with a full finished walkout basement. It was in a very ritzy development. When the truck with the trusses arrived late one afternoon, he got stuck in the mud. I took a look at the trusses and realized right away they weren't built according to print. They were supposed to have a raised heal to allow for wood trim under the eaves. I told the driver when the tow truck comes, to keep on going and take the trusses back. The sales rep from the truss company wanted to scab some 2 x 10's on top of each truss to jury rig a fix. I told him I would burn the trusses if they showed up on site that way. They built new trusses the right way and delivered them finally. 
Moral or the story: you're in the driver's seat, have them rebuild it the right way, not what's cheaper for the builder.
Mike Hawkins


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Thank you firehawkmph for your advise. 

I am worried that it will not be an easy battle with the Builder to make it do it correctly as you prescribed. But I am willing to fight it all the way.

Let's just say I don't come out a winner, what would you say are negatives about doing it by either 

1. Scabing onto the existing walls 
2. Sister taller studs along side existing would be. 

And which one out of 1. & 2. is a better option. 

Thank you.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

firehawkmph said:


> I wouldn't let them either scab on to the existing first floor walls to gain the extra foot, or sister taller studs along side the existing.


I agree with Hawk. But when you do get your plans or they let you know how they are going to remedy this, post back here and let us know.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Absolutely.. I am hoping for a turnaround time of a week. 
I will attach the "repair" plans here!! thanks guys!!


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

Newperson said:


> The builder / architect have realized their mistake and have offered to "repair" the problem and raise the height to 9 foot as per the plan. Also, they will have a structural engineer sign off on the plan before repair process begins. And me and my wife as buyers would need to re-sign the new "repair" plans for us to agree and work to begin.


Whatever repair the builder and his structural engineer suggest, with all due respect, you would be a fool to sign off on anything without getting your own independent professional to validate this fix. And by professional I do not mean on an internet forum.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Builder called me to notify that they have found a professional 3rd party company that their structural engineer has recommended, which deals with moving houses from one place to another and has experience with floor lifts using cranes. While he sets up the plans on paper, he told me that the plan of action would be to lift the top floor and then add onto the walls of the 1st floor. In this process they will use steel column reinforcements. He told me that the costs to do all this is $17,000.00 and he would obviously cover that. He reassured me verbally that by putting in steel beam that end result would come out even better than what it would have been prior to the mistake. 
But as Hammerlane suggested, I should run the plans by my own professional as well.


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

Steel Beam ? where? I would not be happy which a hack job. Maybe it will be strong when its done but what happens when you want to do work to the house in the future? Maybe take down a wall, add more or bigger windows, add opening to sunroom. Even trying to fish an electrical,cable internet wire. It would be a nightmare. 
Plus with all the extra studs walls it will not be properly insulated. 
At the very min. I would ask for 1" xps insulation on the outside and spray foam added to inside.


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

Also with 9' ceilings you should have higher windows or transoms above windows and doors. So all the windows and doors need to be reframed. If they are lifting the 2nd floor up why don't they just remove and reframe first floor.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Frankly this whole thread is a little strange. Your builder misreads the plans and builds an entire floor the wrong height. No one notices until it is finished. Now you are stuck with a partially constructed house that fails to meet the plans. And the same incompetent builder who cannot read the plans in the first place is going to present you with a suitable solution. I agree with previous posters, you need to have a professional architect and engineer review the "fix" to make sure it will be at least as good as if the builder had correctly constructed, and of course your attorney needs to review the agreement to repair to make sure it is properly drafted so you do not have to go through this again if the builder fails to properly construct a second time.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

JustinK said:


> If they are lifting the 2nd floor up why don't they just remove and reframe first floor.


I agree. This question should be answered. Would seem a proper fix.


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

Newperson said:


> Thank you firehawkmph for your advise.
> 
> I am worried that it will not be an easy battle with the Builder to make it do it correctly as you prescribed. But I am willing to fight it all the way.
> 
> ...


I was thinking along the same lines as Justin. You may end up with some unforeseen problems with either extra framing where it wouldn't normally be as far as making changes in the future, insulation not up to snuff,etc. I would think that adding that foot on top of the wall would not be as strong as the properly framed walls. May have a tendency to act as a hinge in the wall. Just my opinion. Again, if it were my dream house, I wouldn't settle for anything less than what it was supposed to be in the first place. That's what prints are for. If the builder refuses to do the proper repair, which would be to raise the second floor, tear out the first and reframe, then I would recommend getting a good attorney. No builder likes to hear that. One other option, how attached are you to this particular lot? Does the builder have another lot he could build you the same house on? Then he could just finish this house and sell it, use it as a model, etc.
Mike Hawkins


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

View attachment 81910
Ok I have rec'd the plans to fix the ceiling height. This has been approved by a structural engineer.
Does this look ok to you all?


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Submitting Pictures


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

What about door and window transoms? Did your plans call for these. I have 9' ceiling and made the mistake not to add them. Now there is a 2' of empty space above windows and doors which is a little awkward. 

The plans are a little hard to read. Tension ties are a good idea. I would be fine with it on interior walls but i would still want it done right on exterior. The electrician plumber and hvac guys are not going to like it and will hack it all up .


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

2nd set is clearer. 
The cost of all those tension ties are going to cost about the same as just replacing 2x6 studs.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Uploading another picture of the plans. Hopefully these are much clearer.

So Once again... does this look like a solid sound repair plan. As I said the builder is writing in contract that all repair will be as per town codes and having a Sr. Structural engineer sign off on it with his name. Also has named the company doing this repair. I checked all their credentials. They are coming Ok.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

JustinK said:


> 2nd set is clearer.
> The cost of all those tension ties are going to cost about the same as just replacing 2x6 studs.


From your comment, it looks like you are against adding all the tention ties and just going with replacing the studs to match the 9 feet height. So besides, the cost factor, doing this repair with tention ties has any down side over replacing the entire stud?


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

All the same reasons mention before. Insulation, problems running duct work. Future work done to house.


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## landfillwizard (Feb 21, 2014)

I agree with justink and firehawk that the studding should be remove and built according to the plans. The plumbers, electricians and HVAC contractors will have a nightmare running utilities to the upper floor. My last job was working as a third party construction inspector for the person havng the work done. I found many problems with construction errors prior to the contractor finishing the sections being built. Not all were the contractors fault. Some were the engineer/architects fault. Most problems were found in the foundation. Bearing grade insufficient or concrete footer and walls not built according to design. 

Our company was called in when the owner of a new house didn't think the contractor knew what he was doing. I was sent out with a current set of plans to do an inspection. The contractor said that it wasn't necessary because the building inspector had been there that morning. 

Within 1 hours, I found 12 serious mistakes and the contractor hadn't even got the basement covered. I called my boss to contact the owner and he also sent out one our engineers to cover my ass. Needless to say after 2 hours of listening to the contractor whine about the cost of fixing the problems, the owner removed him from the job and hired another contractor. I was called into court for the lawsuit that followed and the owner won the judgement against the first contractor.

I know I might have changed the course of this thread, but when someone is paying $250K or more for a house the cost of a reputable construction inspector is well worth the money.


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

SO their solution is what most of us thought. To build a small wall on top of the existing 8' wall to get to the 9' height. I do not envy the predicament you are in. This is a major decision. 

What kind of time frame do you have to accept this remedy.

Have you thought about requiring the builder to establish an escrow account for say $25K for 36 months in case of any unforeseen issues.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

It couldn't have been in the plans submitted. 
And now the prints ( with changes) would have to be re-submitted and approved.
If it's not built according to the plans you will not get a certificate of occupancy.

Just my opinion.... Pay a lot less for the house as is... Or, get your money back and run like hell.

A certificate of occupancy is a document issued by a local government agency or building department certifying a building's compliance with applicable building codes and other laws, and indicating it to be in a condition suitable for occupancy.[1]
The procedure and requirements for the certificate vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and on the type of structure. In the United States, obtaining a certificate is generally required whenever:
a new building is constructed
a building built for one use is to be used for another (e.g. an industrial building converted for residential use)
occupancy of a commercial or industrial building changes, or ownership of a commercial, industrial, or multiple-family residential building changes
The purpose of obtaining a certificate of occupancy is to prove that, according to the law, the house or building is in livable condition. Generally, such a certificate is necessary to be able to occupy the structure for everyday use, as well as to be able to sign a contract to sell the space and close on a mortgage for the space.
A certificate of occupancy is evidence that the building complies substantially with the plans and specifications that have been submitted to, and approved by, the local authority. It complements a building permit—a document that must be filed by the applicant with the local authority before construction to indicate that the proposed construction will adhere to ordinances, codes and laws.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

i dont know if the code is the same where you are to where i am. but all bearing wall studs must be continous in a wall assembly.. 

you will have a hinge point otherwise.. just make the builder give you a rebate for the difference in material cost for the studs,, extra insulation, extra drywall and sidng

heres another question. how big are the windows going in those walls.. reason being if they are less than 18" off the floor they either have to be made of tempered glass or have to have restraints on them which inhibit how far open they open or a bar across them to stop someone from falling out of them, namely small children


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## hammerlane (Oct 6, 2011)

ron45 said:


> If it's not built according to the plans you will not get a certificate of occupancy.


The CO is the least of his worries. The building department will approve whatever change is made once the PE stamp is on the revision.

If it were me, I'd stay as is and ask for some upgrades like a finished basement or the like.


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## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

hammerlane said:


> The CO is the least of his worries. The building department will approve whatever change is made once the PE stamp is on the revision.
> 
> If it were me, I'd stay as is and ask for some upgrades like a finished basement or the like.


Or transom windows...
The situation isn't ideal, frankly I can't see how this fix could be cheaper or easier than just boosting the house and re-building the 1st floor framing. Tough decision, but whatever you decide I hope It all turns out OK and you enjoy the heck out of your new home!


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I don't like the 4"x1/8" slots being cut in the "continuous bottom plate" of the added section. That leaves about 1 1/2" of wood every 4 feet. 

I wouldn't accept that.


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

NewP,
I would not want this in my new house. If you let them do it this way, I can almost guarantee you it will bother you mentally the whole time you live there. What about the question I asker before about starting another house on a different lot? If not, I think I would force the builder to do it the way it should have been from the beginning, or ask for a full refund of any monies paid to date plus any expenses you may have incurred during this process and then go find a legit builder.
Mike Hawkins


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

firehawkmph said:


> Np, I don't know how they will do this job of raising the ceiling, but if it were me, I would want the whole second floor raised up and out of the way. Then tear out ALL the first floor walls and rebuild the first floor with the nine foot high walls, just like it would have been had they done it right the first time. Then set the second floor back on and fasten down. I wouldn't let them either scab on to the existing first floor walls to gain the extra foot, or sister taller studs along side the existing.
> I remember the first house I ever built for a customer was a 5000 sq. ft. Georgian style colonial with a full finished walkout basement. It was in a very ritzy development. When the truck with the trusses arrived late one afternoon, he got stuck in the mud. I took a look at the trusses and realized right away they weren't built according to print. They were supposed to have a raised heal to allow for wood trim under the eaves. I told the driver when the tow truck comes, to keep on going and take the trusses back. The sales rep from the truss company wanted to scab some 2 x 10's on top of each truss to jury rig a fix. I told him I would burn the trusses if they showed up on site that way. They built new trusses the right way and delivered them finally.
> Moral or the story: you're in the driver's seat, have them rebuild it the right way, not what's cheaper for the builder.
> Mike Hawkins


You're the kind of contractor that gives the rest of you a good name.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks Mike Hawkins!! I went back to Builder and suggested I would like them to fix it properly by tearing down 1st floor and rebuilding. I am pasting their reply below. 
One question on their reply- How would this make my house stronger?


"To comply with your request, we would not suggest completely removing the walls that are built now. We would be able to remove the top plate and install next to all existing wall studs, a second stud that is the appropriate height. We would then block the existing stud with a 12" piece to fit next to the newly installed 9' stud. You would end up with two studs in each place where you would typically have only one. This would certainly make the house stronger than it ever would have been. It will also eliminate the need for us to completely remove a lot of the framing work that is already in place. This will save a significant amount of time and provide additional structural support.
Would you be agreeable to this plan?"


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

Found this on a website. 

Approximately 11% of your home is not insulated properly due to wood framing however, wall studs are a fact in home construction. Before you cover up the wall studs, making house insulation diagrams for any future reference is a good idea.
The r-values of wood studs act as a thermal bridge. The r-values of wood can create a cold area in the insulation where the wood stud meets the sheetrock. The cold spots can compromise the insulation and lower the effective average R-values of the whole wall. In addition to the poor r-values of wood lowering the R-values of the wall, a cold spot may lead to condensation problems. Moisture could condense through wall studs, which generally have the lowest insulation r-values, and other framing materials of the home. If moisture does get into the wall cavity, moisture condensation can begin where the cold r-values of wood studs meet the sheetrock.
The r-values of wood wall studs are linear and are measured in terms of inches. However, wood wall studs generally lower the r-values of your insulation.
The r-values of wood are specified as 1.25 per inch.

A 2X6 wall studs r values are measured as,
5.5" X 1.25. The r values = 6.875


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## atun willis (Feb 28, 2014)

its going to be a long and tricky works


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## firehawkmph (Dec 12, 2009)

NewP,
What Justin said above was my first thought when reading your last post. While sintering the studs is better plan than the builders first plan, it's still not right. In reality, it wouldn't take an insurmountable amount of work to take those outside walls out, scrap them or he can use them for another house if he wishes, and then build new walls from scratch the proper way. Sounds like you have him on the run, make him do it right, no compromises, and you'll sleep better at night and maybe he'll learn how to read a print and keep an eye on his crews in the future.
Mike Hawkins


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks again! I totally agree. I will request him nicely to perform the job properly.

The builder providing me half fast patch fix has proved himself to be looking out for short cuts. He should have atleast proposed sistering stud in to start off with. That is what also his own Structural engineer also said to me, he was not recommending him to do the scabbing onto existing stud in the 1st place, but builder insisted. 

Anyhow, even in this work there is little truth. for e.g sistering studs would not make it stronger. As he is mentioning just to add a 12 '' piece which would hardly do anything for giving support.

Also I researched and found out by doing the below, I will lose Floor Space, atleast 4 inches on all sides on the 1st floor. Is that a true statement?

"We would be able to remove the top plate and install next to all existing wall studs, a second stud that is the appropriate height. We would then block the existing stud with a 12" piece to fit next to the newly installed 9' stud. You would end up with two studs in each place where you would typically have only one. This would certainly make the house stronger than it ever would have been."


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## mikegp (Jul 17, 2011)

After they crane up the second floor, they can knock out and completely rebuild the first floor walls. I'm not sure I'd be happy about the second floor being lifted as it could weaken certain connections, but that's up to you. Talk to your municipality if they give you trouble to see if they would even pass it the way they proposed doing it. Threatening to sue would be a last option if they insist on half assing it. You are paying for a house to be built a certain way, they messed that up so they should fix it.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

I called the town Director of Inspections. 
He suggested I do not go with this plan of "Ripping" my whole house apart as he knows this sort of fix, causes issues with the house later on. 

He suggested to get a house built on another lot. Or ask for heavy monetary compensation if I were to leave things as-is at 8 foot height.


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

I have now reached a point where I am deciding whether to even consider raising the ceiling or live with 8 Feet.

Any Votes ?


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

Newperson said:


> I have now reached a point where I am deciding whether to even consider raising the ceiling or live with 8 Feet.
> 
> Any Votes ?


If it were me, and I truly wanted 9' ceilings, I would insist on 9' ceilings. My current house has 8' and it would feel so much more open and spacious with that extra foot. However, if I were planning on moving again in the future then I might consider dealing with the 8' if i was well compensated for my aggravation. You can also look on the bright side and know that you will pay a bit less to heat and cool the rooms as there is less volume. This is a difficult decision. I would be really upset that I even had to make it. I hope you will be happy in your new house whatever decision you make.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> Votes ?


I am not sure you are voting on the right question.
8 or 9 foot ceilings ?
How about "Do I really want a house built by this guy ?"

His cheapo approach to your specific problem (and ignoring some of the problems they would cause) is probably his way of doing business.

What about other problems you haven't caught, or problems with a new house on a different lot???

I'd be asking for any of my money back and looking for a new builder. There are a lot of good builders out there.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Newperson said:


> I called the town Director of Inspections.
> He suggested I do not go with this plan of "Ripping" my whole house apart as he knows this sort of fix, causes issues with the house later on.


I don't get why he'd think that, house are lifted and set back down all the time without issue. Assuming yours still isn't plumbed, wired, etc. it's even easier yet.

Got any pictures of this house?


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## Newperson (Feb 20, 2014)

Yes posting a pic of it.


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## landfillwizard (Feb 21, 2014)

I agree with Oso! If he couldn't read the plans that said 9' studs, how do you know if anything else is not done correctly. I would go back to the architect and tell him what is going on and insist that he find another site and get another builder to do it correctly! I also would insist that the architect have a construction inspector onsite during the build!


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

I may have missed another architect, but the discussion started with *The Builder's Architect. 


*


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Actually, the discussion started with:
"My Builder's architect submitted incorrect plans to the contractor...."

The builder has become incompetent by page 4 of this thread. I think hammerlane gave good advise back on page 1 ---- hire your own structural engineer. He will probably charge you $100/hr, but in the overall scheme of building a house, its a small amount. And most certainly carries more weight with the builder than you walking in and saying "they guy on the internet said...."


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## JustinK (Oct 4, 2009)

I enjoy my 9' ceilings, feels much bigger


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

> My Builder's architect submitted incorrect plans to the contractor


Who's who here.

Do you have a "builder" who then hired an architect and a framer (contractor)?

Why is the "builder" picking up the tab? It should be the archy's E&O.


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