# 14 gauge wire, 20 amp breaker?



## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Yeah that's not code compliant. You have yourself an overloaded circuit. If you're drawing 18amps on a 15 amp breaker, you're not gonna trip right away, it may take awhile. But in Canada you can't have 20 amp breakers on #14 with 15 amp receptacles. You would need #12 with T slot receptacles


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## JustChecking (Jul 7, 2012)

Thank you! That's what I suspected. I asked him, don't 20 A circuits need 12 gauge and different receptacles? (I thought this, because I read into it while planning my basement setup a few months ago)

His response was "Not in a commercial environment, new code says you can put a 20A breaker on 14 gauge wire"...and of course, the receptacles here are all "normal" receptacles, no T.

Is his claim of "new code", BS?

I'd love to throw a regulatory paragraph back at them if you had one handy.


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Ampacity has gone up for wires, but there's is a rule, I don't have handy at the moment, that stipulates that although the ampacity has slightly increased, the breaker and receptacles for #14,#12, and #10 don't change. For example you can't put a Tslot and 20 amp breaker on a #14. The ampacity increase was mainly for derating purposes.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Have some fun. Ask for that in writing on company letterhead and see how quickly the story gets modified.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd be contacting the building dept. on this one and asking for a reinspection.
If he's doing this to you I'm sure your not the first.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

I cant speak for CEC (I am really curious though) but in the NEC 240.4 (D) limits the OCPD to 15 amps for 14 gauge wire. Motors and some other stuff are allowed to go higher but not general use circuits.


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Jump-start said:


> I cant speak for CEC (I am really curious though) but in the NEC 240.4 (D) limits the OCPD to 15 amps for 14 gauge wire. Motors and some other stuff are allowed to go higher but not general use circuits.


This is all the same in CEC.
The ampacity of #14 copper is either 20 or 25 depending on the type of insulation, but this is strictly for derating purposes. Rule 14-104 states that despite this ampacity increase, #14 is limited to a 15 amp breaker


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Not sure why anyone would want to run 15 computers and 25 screens off of 1 circuit.

18 amps continuous is too much for a 20 amp circuit also.


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## Hick (Nov 21, 2014)

Colbyt said:


> Have some fun. Ask for that in writing on company letterhead and see how quickly the story gets modified.


Yep, get it in writing...if ya can :thumbsup:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

His claim is BS. 20 amp circuits need #12 wire AND the 20 amp T slot receptacles. There is no distinction between home and commercial on that.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

htae said:


> This is all the same in CEC.
> The ampacity of #14 copper is either 20 or 25 depending on the type of insulation, but this is strictly for derating purposes. Rule 14-104 states that despite this ampacity increase, #14 is limited to a 15 amp breaker


Just wondering, what do you mean by ampacity increase? The table was changed?


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

CEC, table 2-allowable ampacities for not more than three copper conductors in a raceway or cable. The values in the table had increased in 2012 compared to 2009


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

htae said:


> CEC, table 2-allowable ampacities for not more than three copper conductors in a raceway or cable. The values in the table had increased in 2012 compared to 2009


What were they and what did they increase to? Just curious.


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Cec 2012


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Cec 2009


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

Thanks! 

That is interesting, I guess they figured applications outside of 14-104 could handle smaller wire while still having enough safety factor? FWIW the NEC went the opposite direction. The 2005 and 2008 NEC ampacity table resembled the 2012 CEC while the codes that came after that somewhat resemble the 2009 CEC.

2005 and 2014 respectively:


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## JustChecking (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks so much for all of your insight guys!

To me, the non-electrician, the 2012 CEC table has 20s in the columns next to the 14 gauge. How can I use this table to confront my sinister electrician?

Thanks again!


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## htae (Apr 14, 2013)

Rule 14-104 
Notice how size 14,12 & 10 have an asterisks. This refers you to a rule 14-104


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

JustChecking said:


> Thanks so much for all of your insight guys!
> 
> To me, the non-electrician, the 2012 CEC table has 20s in the columns next to the 14 gauge. How can I use this table to confront my sinister electrician?
> 
> Thanks again!


Htae is correct. 14-104 basically say this: it doesn't matter what the wire is listed for, #14 goes on a 15 breaker while #12 goes on a 20.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

The table is used for derating. it allows more conductors now before derating is required because you start with 20 amps instead of 15 when doing the calc.


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## JustChecking (Jul 7, 2012)

Thank you very much. Can't wait to listen to them repeat that it's ok to do what they'd proposed. Might even make a great Youtube video!


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

JustChecking said:


> Thank you very much. Can't wait to listen to them repeat that it's ok to do what they'd proposed. Might even make a great Youtube video!


your glowing :yes:

Not sure what the business at hand was....
and there are always two sides to a story (actually three but)
He was off mentioning to put that one circuit on the 20 amp breaker...

but did you guys overload that 15 amp circuit?

was he directed to run 1- 15 amp circuit and not two 15 or 20 amp circuits?

just thinking out loud.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

JustChecking said:


> It's a newly renovated space, and where we'd asked for a 20A breaker during spec, we're now discovering that it's a 15A breaker on 14 gauge wire.


ok caught this part... but as mentioned your load is still too much for that...

was it a verbal ask?...

that the person doing the install didn't hear?

did you put it in writing? was there a print??

This was commercial.... why you in a diy?


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

JustChecking said:


> Can't wait to listen to them


you're better than that


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