# Front porch rebuild



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Hi after receiving some ridiculously high estimates on rebuilding our front deck I decided to tackle it myself possibly. First I got a demo this thing to see what I'm dealing with. There is so rot near the front door on a count of it being poorly flashed. This thing is falling apart. it was improperly done in the first place probably by the previous homeowner. We knew at the inspection that it's was poorly done it didn't pass the inspection. But we got a break on the price as a result. Finally doing something about it. I've got estimates ranging from $8, 000 to $18,000 so I think it's time I try to do myself if I can.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Can anyone help me figure out how to post pictures from an Android phone?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Figured it out.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Figured it out.


If you are prepared for work and pay attention to the advice you will save lots of cash. I might tie that to the car and take a little dive and see if it just comes away from the house.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It definitely would but probably though the shrubbery.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Not too much progress today started by removing some of the short decking boards in the railing. Going to try to disassemble it carefully to see if there's framing wood underneath that can be salvaged and reused. But I'm not too hopeful.


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## Old Thomas (Nov 28, 2019)

When I bought my house in 1980 it had a porch that looked like it was going to fall down. I had a big 4 wheel drive truck that was set up for off-roading with low gears, a modified engine and lockers in both axles. I hooked it to the porch and I couldn’t pull it down. But it was fun trying.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Couple of more progress pictures I lost yesterday due to having to go to doctor appointments. I'm wondering before I throw all this old Trex out if it's something that could be reused and painted. I've been told it's kind of a first generation Trex it doesn't have a vinyl coating laminated on it like the modern Trex does.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Maybe.
https://www.trexfencing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/trex-product-painting-guide.pdf


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The more I pull this deck apart the more I say holy F!


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## dj3 (Apr 27, 2020)

Demolish everything. 
Even if you buy all new materials, you will be ahead of the estimates.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Here they put two, here they put one, here they put none.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

For reasons I don't understand, they seem to have actually properly through bolted on the side of the deck. However they did not flash at all not even the cobbed together pieces that they had on the other side.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Difficulty loading pics today. Site froze my phone.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Trying to show where the deck failed the most near the entry. Water got trapped at the wedges any called some root they're too. How does one protect the framing under the deck boards to prevent this from happening?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Trying to show where the deck failed the most near the entry. Water got trapped at the wedges any called some root they're too. How does one protect the framing under the deck boards to prevent this from happening?


 Proper house wrap and flashing :wink2:That looks like OSB hopefully the rim joist is still usable.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Rim joist is a concern. Also wondering how to protect the PT framing under the deck boards themselves. Trex is great in the it is weather resistant, but if out let's water trough to the wood underneath, that defeats the purpose.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Rim joist is a concern. Also wondering how to protect the PT framing under the deck boards themselves. Trex is great in the it is weather resistant, but if out let's water trough to the wood underneath, that defeats the purpose.


 There is a tape now tat you put on the to of the joists so water and dirt aren't sit in top of the joist.


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## RRH (Nov 24, 2016)

Jim F said:


> Couple of more progress pictures I lost yesterday due to having to go to doctor appointments. I'm wondering before I throw all this old Trex out if it's something that could be reused and painted. I've been told it's kind of a first generation Trex it doesn't have a vinyl coating laminated on it like the modern Trex does.


Yes that still looks good for some uses. A lot of times wish I could still buy it.
Your problem is it really needs 12 OC space between joist.
I just stained some yesterday on a pool deck and looks great. 
I installed this 25 to 30 years ago.

Pro's are 
1. Was solid color all the way thru. I could do more custom work with it using 
a router for a decorative edge. 
2. Even on wood decks I would use this as the top hand rail. Since no 
cracking or splintering over the years. Would still have a splinter free 
handrail. On all trex decks I liked they made a solid 2 x 4 out of the same 
material.
3. Have one 20 years old I used the Trex to just go over an old 2 x 6 deck. Still in good shape. Did use roof coating first over the old decking. Since otherwise could trap moisture and rot out the old decking underneath. 

4. Was more reasonable priced. Worked better being a solid 5/4 or 2 x 4 with both sides the same. Again good for custom work like if someone wanted a window flower box that would last.

5. Holds stain better than wood. 

After 10 years factory color would be pretty faded. First I liked Cabots oil base stain on it. No with EPA no longer a thru oil base anymore. And acrylic stains have improved.
Now my favorite is a PPG product. Flood Pro Series 100% Acrylic Solid Color stain. Great coverage, dries fast & no peeling. 
To keep it looking very good. I would say recoat every 5 years on horizontal surfaces. And 8 on vertical such as rail pickets.

So every 5 years or so can make it look new again. Quick easy for me with a airless sprayer and fine finish tip for less over spray.

The new capped composites do look great and higher end. But you cant ever stain to make look new again. And anything will fade in the hot sun. 
Also what if you have damage or want to add on later. Most discontinue matching colors after so many years. So cant count on matching.

Because of this there is a lot to be said about going back to wood decking.
I never liked 5/4 deck boards. They never lasted. And would warp and crack more

But I have also got 30 years out of the decks I made with 2 x 6 as decking boards.

I hand pick at a good lumber yard. And on some. Route the edge. Rounding it over so it looks like a standard 5/4 decking board. Cant say it made it last much longer just looked a lot better. Last I did would take me about 60 seconds for a 10 ft board. So not really a lot of extra time when setup for it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Trouble again getting pictures to post. I'm going to try to save the joist hangers if I can probably not going to try to save the nails but I could go through them I suppose. someone suggested a palm nailer to nail these joist hangers is that a good thing to have. That might be the one nailing tool that I don't have yet. I've seen many palm nailers but I don't think that's going to be big enough to do this job or is it?. PS thanks for the help I've got so far I just have not found a thanks button on this mobile site. I will have to go to the full version on my laptop to find the thanks button.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Trouble again getting pictures to post. I'm going to try to save the joist hangers if I can probably not going to try to save the nails but I could go through them I suppose. someone suggested a palm nailer to nail these joist hangers is that a good thing to have. That might be the one nailing tool that I don't have yet. I've seen many palm nailers but I don't think that's going to be big enough to do this job or is it?. PS thanks for the help I've got so far I just have not found a thanks button on this mobile site. I will have to go to the full version on my laptop to find the thanks button.


They changed the treatment on the lumber around 2003 so toss the hangers, the zinc isn't thick enough for the new lumber.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

That will certainly save me time in the teardown thanks.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Old deck was just sitting on the posts.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Progress from yesterday just taking the pictures today. It was brutally hot yesterday. I got the deck boards removed from the front entrance area. I have to disassemble that electrical conduit to get that failed ledger board off. It was pulling down on the Romex I'm lucky it didn't shear that off. As it is, there is exposed insulation that will have to be replaced. Looks like we're going to get rain today. See if I can make a little progress before that starts.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I found no connection in the junction box only looped Romex.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The old deck was attached poorly to the rim joist. Should the new deck be through bolted to the rim joist or the foundation below the rim joist?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> The old deck was attached poorly to the rim joist. Should the new deck be through bolted to the rim joist or the foundation below the rim joist?


 The new deck should have the frame 6" below the sub floor of the house.
A reasonable step down from the house. So that might put you do where you can just anchor to the concrete. 

But you want to rip away all that bad OSB and see if the damage goes up behind the siding too. 

You might ask in electrical, you might be able to just cut that cable and use that for a junction box.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

This is the lumber that was used in the old deck number two kiln-dried looks like. Quite a lot of it maybe half of it is in pretty good shape. I'd like to reuse it if I can. Especially since it is very difficult right now to get pressure treated lumber. They say it is due to the covid shutdown.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerouted that cable underground in the existing conduit. The cable type is 12/2 Romex type UF. So probably didn't need the conduit in the first place but I had it so I used it. The worst of the rimjoice damage seems to be right there under the entry. So I will have to cut out and replace some bad rim joists. I'll have to figure out how best to do that. There are videos online and stuff but open totoosuggestions too.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Rerouted that cable underground in the existing conduit. The cable type is 12/2 Romex type UF. So probably didn't need the conduit in the first place but I had it so I used it. The worst of the rimjoice damage seems to be right there under the entry. So I will have to cut out and replace some bad rim joists. I'll have to figure out how best to do that. There are videos online and stuff but open totoosuggestions too.


Do the floor joists run in the same direction as the rim?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> This is the lumber that was used in the old deck number two kiln-dried looks like. Quite a lot of it maybe half of it is in pretty good shape. I'd like to reuse it if I can. Especially since it is very difficult right now to get pressure treated lumber. They say it is due to the covid shutdown.


If it all looks like that I would use it


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The floor joists do run parallel to that rim joist this is the area from basement it's hard to tell what's going on from this side.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> The floor joists do run parallel to that rim joist this is the area from basement it's hard to tell what's going on from this side.


 Squash blocks are 2x anything that matches the height if the rim joists added behind the rim to add extra support under the 3 studs on each side of the door. 

So you can remove the section i have marked in red and check to see if you have squash blocks or you can install a snug fitting 2x4 or 2x6 in behind and then remove and replace the part under those studs. After that I would just change out the rest of the rim in 30" sections for the rest.
If you can find a very dry replacement for the rim. You want that to match the height as the old and you don't want any shrinkage. Perhaps one of your treated pieces would be dry enough.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Squash blocks are 2x anything that matches the height if the rim joists added behind the rim to add extra support under the 3 studs on each side of the door.
> 
> So you can remove the section i have marked in red and check to see if you have squash blocks or you can install a snug fitting 2x4 or 2x6 in behind and then remove and replace the part under those studs. After that I would just change out the rest of the rim in 30" sections for the rest.
> If you can find a very dry replacement for the rim. You want that to match the height as the old and you don't want any shrinkage. Perhaps one of your treated pieces would be dry enough.


So are you saying I need to place squash blocks made of 2x lumber under the door frame studs before removing that section of bad rim joist?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So are you saying I need to place squash blocks made of 2x lumber under the door frame studs before removing that section of bad rim joist?


You can remove what i outlined in red and if you install the blocks or if it has blocks you can replace the red and yellow parts Just do a join at the conduit.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Some pictures of the cleared out area with a deck all disassembled. From inside the house as well. There is a small shed area that's attached to the A-frame section of the house. So the de ck should continue up to that as well. I would like the deck and the steps to extend out to incorporate not that last concrete step as it's leaning in but the next one after that. I'm looking for as gradual of a transition up as I can achieve. I'm even considering a second deck level up close to the house with the main deck being about 8 in lower or a step lower.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Some pictures of the cleared out area with a deck all disassembled. From inside the house as well. There is a small shed area that's attached to the A-frame section of the house. So the de ck should continue up to that as well. I would like the deck and the steps to extend out to incorporate not that last concrete step as it's leaning in but the next one after that. I'm looking for as gradual of a transition up as I can achieve. I'm even considering a second deck level up close to the house with the main deck being about 8 in lower or a step lower.


 How wide is the space between the shed and the house under the corner window? 

Is all the siding on the shed over concrete or is that white something else?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The space between the house and shed is maybe 5 ft. I'll have to measure it. That is concrete up quite high. They remove some of the siding and attached the deck to the furring strips.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

This is the best overall view I have. I don't intend to build the new deck beyond the wall on the left.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> The space between the house and shed is maybe 5 ft. I'll have to measure it. That is concrete up quite high. They remove some of the siding and attached the deck to the furring strips.


So you build the min deck just up the the shed and then build a landing with a ledger under the corner window against the concrete and this end would sit on the main deck with a couple steps down.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

This is my proposal or possibly a shorter version of this that doesn't come all the way out to the end of the jut out. I may choose also to come just six feet out from the door entrance. I am looking to transition more gradually than the original deck had been. I'm thinking about making the main deck lower and having like an upper deck multi-level and other words that steps up to the entrance starting at those wall jot outs. I was hoping to incorporate those concrete slab steps in but I see the very top one is tipped and that would be a challenge to re-level I think or I might have to put some decking over it to level it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Drilled a pilot hole through to locate the inside. After removing some insulation I have access to the inside. Clearly no squash blocks currently under the door framing so I will have to cut and add some before proceeding with removing the rim joist. Looks like it soaked into the subfloor to a little bit from the outside which is no surprise. The one door frame stud is directly above that junction box so that will be a little bit trickier to place the squash blocks


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Playing with a building app from decks.com. in order to describe what's going on I essentially had to create four houses around my deck. And it still can't seem to wrap around the fact that it attaches on all of the sides. Not sure how to fix that and none of their help videos are helpful. But this is essentially what I'm trying to do. My other option is to extend my new deck out to the front of the house but I'm not sure I want to do that because I'm trying to reduce the number of steps and rise.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Open to suggestions of better free deck building apps.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Open to suggestions of better free deck building apps.


First job, wash this with detergent, bleach and water. 

Paint the water stains with a copper treatment . 

Remove those wires for now.
Rip a piece of dry treated 2x10 to match the height of the rim joist and install it from the inside, One piece or shorter pieces, either way is good. 

Then you can remove the rim from the outside and replace it
I will look at the plan drawings.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Like this? https://www.lowes.com/pd/COPPER-GRE...ditioner-Actual-Net-Contents-1-Gallon/3064247


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Like this? https://www.lowes.com/pd/COPPER-GRE...ditioner-Actual-Net-Contents-1-Gallon/3064247


Yes, 

When you install the inside piece you can leave out the section under the threshold just make sure you have areas under the studs 

When you replace that wire move it out from under the studs a little and use a deck screw when you install that box.


After the deck is done your next job will be to re and re the door and install a pan to stop that water from getting in there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

How do you use this area by the shed other than access to the door?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

For shed access mostly. Its pretty much a reach in shed. Snow slides off the steep A frame roof above it. It just seems more practical to extend the deck into that space.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> For shed access mostly. Its pretty much a reach in shed. Snow slides off the steep A frame roof above it. It just seems more practical to extend the deck into that space.


from the old deck how high was that door step. 20" about?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

20 is probably close. The shed door is higher than the front door. How


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So my plan right now is to attach to the rim joist just below the entry once I get the rim joist repaired. My earlier thought about attaching to the concrete foundation sounds just too complicated. My plan is to use that last level concrete step and build up the crooked one to level that's matching that and that will bring me to almost within 6 ft the stopping point of my new deck. From the top of my threshold down to what looks to be almost level to the six point out point is 32-in. My hope is to start the deck 7-in below that into the rim joist. So I will have to figure out the rise from about 26-in? But I really need to get a line level so I know exactly what my level is going to be I just haven't acquired one yet.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> 20 is probably close. The shed door is higher than the front door. How


What was the question??


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The shed door height.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> The shed door height.


:biggrin2:That was my question, I was referring to your one word "*How"*
I thought maybe you had a question in mind.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Typo.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

So @Jim F what part of attaching to the foundation do you find complicated?

You don't have to fill in the old area with vinyl siding. It can be (and I think would look nice) a belly band board. After that to bring those two walls down to deck level would be easy enough.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because you're in snow country and having the deck a couple of steps down from the finished floor height inside is a huge benefit when it comes to protecting the house from the elements.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I was just thinking in terms of drilling into concrete. I don't own a hammer drill
Also do you drill though and apply through bolts or concrete anchors? Then what? Steps up to the entrance, or a small second level deck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I was just thinking in terms of drilling into concrete. I don't own a hammer drill
> Also do you drill though and apply through bolts or concrete anchors? Then what? Steps up to the entrance, or a small second level deck.


 You would rent a rotary hammer drill and install with anchor bolts
You would us 1/2" or 5/8" about 4" long/


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Jim F said:


> I was just thinking in terms of drilling into concrete. I don't own a hammer drill
> Also do you drill though and apply through bolts or concrete anchors? Then what? Steps up to the entrance, or a small second level deck.


You can rent a hammer drill for probably $30 for 4 hrs and maybe 50 for the day.

I'd pre-drill the wood for the bolts and use a couple of tapcon screws to initially attach the ledger to the foundation.

After that I'd drill out the concrete using the pre-drilled holes in the ledger as a guide. Drill those holes 1/2-3/4" deeper than they need to be then either blow or vacuum out and dust/debris that remains in the hole you just drilled.

Then insert a wedge anchor bolt.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

What material would I use for this belly band? It would have to be vinyl and assuming correct?


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i just now saw and read this thread.

wow, that was a mess.

myself, i do not believe in attaching a low deck to the house, at all. i find it causes more problems than it solves. my advice = built a floating deck = if the house suddenly disappeared, the deck would still be there and just as strong.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> What material would I use for this belly band? It would have to be vinyl and assuming correct?


There is vinyl boards or paint grade lumber or you could match the siding and add some to the bottom.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> i just now saw and read this thread.
> 
> wow, that was a mess.
> 
> myself, i do not believe in attaching a low deck to the house, at all. i find it causes more problems than it solves. my advice = built a floating deck = if the house suddenly disappeared, the deck would still be there and just as strong.


 I'm not sure how I feel about a floating deck. That would require more footers and the house isn't going anywhere.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Jim F said:


> I'm not sure how I feel about a floating deck. That would require more footers and the house isn't going anywhere.


when i went to do mine, i was going to do like you. guys here said don't do it ! 

i bought a power auger, 8". bore down, then used sonotubes to extend the piers above ground. pretty easy. now, i don't have to worry about my house rotting out.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Jim F said:


> I'm not sure how I feel about a floating deck. That would require more footers and the house isn't going anywhere.


The benefit of floating decks is that you're not attaching a ledger to the wood frame of the house. Doing that eliminates the rot issues you're dealing with now.

By attaching the ledger to the foundation you get that same benefit. No flashing is needed and the foundation will never rot.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I thought the rim joist rotted because the ledger board wasn't properly flashed. Is that what people are doing, floating decks on houses? How close cam you dig to the house for the footers on the house side?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I thought the rim joist rotted because the ledger board wasn't properly flashed. Is that what people are doing, floating decks on houses? How close cam you dig to the house for the footers on the house side?



For all the extra work and expense I would go with the lower deck that bolts to the foundation with a raised step at the door about the size of the wing walls and that step does not need to touch the house. 

You would like to build the step frame out of 2x8s @ 7 1/4" and have about a 7 inch step into the house so you would put the top of the ledger at 14" below the threshold of the door.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Jim F said:


> I thought the rim joist rotted because the ledger board wasn't properly flashed. Is that what people are doing, floating decks on houses? How close cam you dig to the house for the footers on the house side?


A couple of things here...



> I thought the rim joist rotted because the ledger board wasn't properly flashed


And you would be correct. Sadly the "properly" from the last guy got missed on probably 80% of deck rebuilds I've done.

To do it "properly" you will need to remove and replace one course of siding that's above the new ledger. 

If you decide to put the ledger back were it was, could we walk you through to get it right? Absolutely, I still recommend two steps down because of the snow (just one reason) I know you get.



> floating decks on houses? How close cam you dig to the house for the footers on the house


Depending on the size of the joist your going to use the new footings could be 12-18" off of the house. Frost depth requirements aside the footings would need to be at least as deep as the footings for the house (you need to get down to undisturbed soil)


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Jim F said:


> How close cam you dig to the house for the footers on the house side?


mine are a little over 1' away


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

With step down it would look like this with just 2 footings and posts needed.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I like the idea of attaching to the foundation more and more. I will need yo grade this area so ot slopes away from the foundation. Also need to make sure I have access to those two gutter drains in case they get clogged or come loose.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm saying Two steps down...The first step is when you come out of the door onto a landing that would come out to the end (or further) of the dangling walls and then one more step down onto the deck.

The height of the finished deck would be 14" below the door threshold.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kwikfishron said:


> I'm saying Two steps down...The first step is when you come out of the door onto a landing that would come out to the end (or further) of the dangling walls and then one more step down onto the deck.
> 
> The height of the finished deck would be 14" below the door threshold.


 So we agree on the height of the main deck, you would just come out level with the floor instead of the step down at the door. 

He is in snow country so I would stay with the step down at the door.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I like the idea of attaching to the foundation more and more. I will need yo grade this area so ot slopes away from the foundation. Also need to make sure I have access to those two gutter drains in case they get clogged or come loose.


Plumb the pipes with hard pipe, strap it to the frame work and cut the pipe just a little above deck level for a pipe cap and to deal with plugs you remove the down spouts like every one else. :biggrin2:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> So we agree on the height of the main deck, you would just come out level with the floor instead of the step down at the door.





kwikfishron said:


> I'm saying Two steps down...*The first step is when you come out of the door onto a landing*


Maybe I should have said: 'Down' onto a landing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kwikfishron said:


> Maybe I should have said: 'Down' onto a landing.


So two risers, one step. I think we are agreeing :wink2:


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> So two risers, one step. I think we are agreeing :wink2:


Yes, but I'd like to see the first step out of the door (the landing) be at least 36" deep so it's a comfortable space to stand while you're waiting for someone to open the door.

It (36"+) doesn't have to be but that's what I'd want. :smile:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

kwikfishron said:


> Yes, but I'd like to see the first step out of the door (the landing) be at least 36" deep so it's a comfortable space to stand while you're waiting for someone to open the door.
> 
> It (36"+) doesn't have to be but that's what I'd want. :smile:


Yes I think 36" landing would apply if it is more than a reasonable tread depth.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I definitely want to step down from the door. Also agree that it should be a comfortable distance out say 3 ft. My current plans call for coming 6 ft out from that point but giving that the entire deck is going to be lower I may come out a little further than that. My main concern is I don't want to have four step uo from the ground level up to the deck level like I had before. Removed all the furniture into this house from that approach and it was not fun.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

"You would like to build the step frame out of 2x8s @ 7 1/4" This has me a bit confused. If I use 2 x 8s won't my rise be 8 inches? But I have been contemplating building a step frame onto the main deck level.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> "You would like to build the step frame out of 2x8s @ 7 1/4" This has me a bit confused. If I use 2 x 8s won't my rise be 8 inches? But I have been contemplating building a step frame onto the main deck level.


2x8s are around 7 1/4" when they dry out if you but that on the main frame before adding decking the step is 7 1/4 inches and the decking is the same on both.


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## 67IreneRoad (Dec 8, 2019)

There is a membrane called Resisto 4"wide the made to cover the top of joists before decking goes on This will save your joists from standing water Believe its available at HD as well as Lowes


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

67IreneRoad said:


> There is a membrane called Resisto 4"wide the made to cover the top of joists before decking goes on This will save your joists from standing water Believe its available at HD as well as Lowes


 I will be using something like that after finding water damage on the joists in the demo.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I bolted onto the back side of the ruined rim joist a 2x10x8 board that I cut into two sections had to cut notches for the bolts that go through the sill plate. I think it's good news that none of the old board was rotted all the way through, but still quite rotted in places. I didn't want to move that electrical box but apparently I needed to because it was right under the door frame. I will drive wood shims into the gaps of the new repair board to make sure it's tight. Also need to secure that board to the floor above and the rim joist below somehow. Then I will cut away what's rotted on the outside and replace it with new sections of 2x10.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I bolted onto the back side of the ruined rim joist a 2x10 x8 board that I cut into sections had to cut notches for the bolts that go through the cell plate. Next step is to cut away all of that rot from the outside and put a new board in on the outer side or sections of board to repair that. I think it's good news that none of the old board was rotted all the way through. But pretty rotted in places. I didn't want to move that electrical box but apparently I needed to because it was right under the door frame. I will shim also I think I need to secure that new board above and below somehow maybe angle iron pieces. that inner repair board up with wood shims. Just to make sure it's tight. think if I'm smart I will also put squash boards under where the door frame is supported.


 When you are done you will have double thickness rim so you won't need squash blocks ,
When you change the out side. are you going to move that cable as low as you can so it will be under the new deck?
You can toe nail down into the sill plate and other than the door way you can toe nail up into the wall plate above , that will lock it in place when you have to fight with the outer one. 

BTW, except for the cable right next to the floor. nice work.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Cutting the right away with my multi-tool wondering if there's a quicker tool this is taking a while.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Cutting the right away with my multi-tool wondering if there's a quicker tool this is taking a while.


 I was thinking you would have to pull the timber out and change it.
But if the damage is just skin deep, what you are doing is good too. 

I have done that with a stiff wire cup on an angle grinder. I have also done it artfully with a circular saw but you really need to be comfortable with a saw for that. 

You will have to open the siding to get to the top, you will need to do that just to add flashing later anyway. 

Do you know how to open the siding?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> You will have to open the siding to get to the top, you will need to do that just to add flashing later anyway.
> 
> Do you know how to open the siding?


 I know there is a tool for ot that I need to get.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I know there is a tool for ot that I need to get.


The second piece of siding is just hooked on the bottom one, some times you can just pop it off with a screw driver and work it out.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Looks like if I start 14 inches below the threshold like planned, I'll be around 26 inches six feet out. The plan is to level out that tilted top step close to the ground with decking.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Looks like if I start 14 inches below the threshold like planned, I'll be around 26 inches six feet out. The plan is to level out that tilted top step close to the ground with decking.


 so that would give you at least another 30" for stairs . 

so what is the drop at 8' 6" and 9' 3"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Drop at 8 ft 6 is 26 in right in the middle of that crooked stone. 9 ft 3 looks to be about the same.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Drop at 8 ft 6 is 26 in right in the middle of that crooked stone. 9 ft 3 looks to be about the same.


 But you want the stairs to miss the crooked concrete?
They would have to start about 20 inches passed the crooked step unless you are going to remove the crooked one?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

My original idea was to build the crooked step up level somehow with some decking. But I am liking that idea less and less. If I use the first level step that I have that starts at 10 ft 7 in and ends at 14 ft out. And that rise is 31 in to the deck level.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm not actually locked in at the 6-ft deck width at this point I could shrink or expand it however it would fit the overall plans best. materials cost is not going to be that significant if I'm doing it myself.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I'm not actually locked in at the 6-ft deck width at this point I could shrink or expand it however it would fit the overall plans best. materials cost is not going to be that significant if I'm doing it myself.


So go out to 147 and check the height.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

147" out from the doorway? That brings me out halfway between that level step so it would still be 31"


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> 147" out from the doorway? That brings me out halfway between that level step so it would still be 31"


So the 14" was the height of the frame so we add at least 1" for decking so for the stairs we would use 32" /5 = 6.4" risers and 4 treads at 10" so that would leave the deck about 107" or if you remove that crooked step you could make it about 16" shorter so something like 91" long


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So 107" or about 8.9 ' out from the house. The 6.4/10 ratio sounds good as well, That's given me more to think about. My main objectives is to have a comfortable rise to the house level in my old age. The four steps that led up to the original deck were not comfortable.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So 107" or about 8.9 ' out from the house. The 6.4/10 ratio sounds good as well, That's given me more to think about. My main objectives is to have a comfortable rise to the house level in my old age. The four steps that led up to the original deck were not comfortable.


You cut them at 10 and then you use 11" treads. And that is 5 steps up if you count the one up on to the deck.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I built this out just to try to envision what 9 ft out will look like that board being 9 ft long. I'm wondering if I could get away with pushing it back to 8 ft. I'm also thinking in terms of even if I did I could not use standard 8 ft boards there anyway because I do need to trim the ends even. But I am just looking at other width options and trying to decide what would be optimal.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

40 in out for the steps and a 46-in stringer length according to one calculator that I saw online. So this is where the new step should actually land. And that's at 9 ft out.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> 40 in out for the steps and a 46-in stringer length according to one calculator that I saw online. So this is where the new step should actually land. And that's at 9 ft out.


 If you shorten it to 8 ft with the rim and ledger you joists will be 93" and we may have to deal with the end of the sloped concrete for the stringer on the left. 

The 46" may be a bit deceiving, do you still have the old stringers?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I do although the four step stringer combination that I have is not what I want to end up with. I'll have to set that up tomorrow.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I do although the four step stringer combination that I have is not what I want to end up with. I'll have to set that up tomorrow.


Measure the cuts for the rise and run on those so we know what you don't like. :wink2:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Just having 5 steps up to the deck. Looking for a more gradual transition with a lower deck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Just having 5 steps up to the deck. Looking for a more gradual transition with a lower deck.


 Yes but the crooked step was a step so if you go out past that you are adding one.
When i asked about that, I was thinking you could set the stringer in place of the 2x4 to get a better idea where it will have to sit. The angle won't be the same but close enough just for a visual.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yep I'm hoping to take that 9-ft board turn it on outside nail it up with a couple of piece of wood more permanently and nail a stringer for that so I can get a better visual. It is a shame though that I couldn't use the crooked step. But I would rather extend out past it then try to make it level.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Another thought I had though is the new steps I plan on making 4 ft wide so they're actually going to stand past those steps on either side. Not actually land on the steps in other words.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

@Jim F I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. 

I'm all for planning ahead but imo opinion finish up the rot repair and build the deck and let the joist run wild (no rim attached). 

Start the decking with a full board against the house, when you get a few courses from the end stop and figure out where the deck is going to end and the stair.

Doing that will allow you to have a full width decking board against the house and at the end of the deck.

You do not want to land on that crooked step. If it's in the way then you should bust it out of there and pour a new landing.

BTW the stair stringer you show from the last deck is unacceptable imo.

By the end of this I hope you learn how to cut stairs properly (it's easy).


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Another thought I had though is the new steps I plan on making 4 ft wide so they're actually going to stand past those steps on either side. Not actually land on the steps in other words.


Then just build the deck to what works best with your joists and figure out the stairs later.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

At 9 ft out it looks like I have a 27-in rise to the deck frame (not including the decking). I put together kind of a mini deck using the old stair stringer. So it looks like I will have three steps up to the deck level from the level concrete step. And then two more steps up into the house including that one 3-ft wide step up that I'm planning at the entry level. This satisfies my want for a more gradual approach, I want the new steps to be four feet wide so that will bring me out to either side of that step anyway so I guess the plan there is to dig some sort of step footers. From what I've seen online, the step footers typically don't go as deep as the deck footers? Now that I have a better idea of where I'm going, I can get back to the tearing off and cleaning up.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> At 9 ft out it looks like I have a 27-in rise to the deck frame (not including the decking). I put together kind of a mini deck using the old stair stringer. So it looks like I will have three steps up to the deck level from the level concrete step. And then two more steps up into the house including that one 3-ft wide step up that I'm planning at the entry level. This satisfies my want for a more gradual approach, I want the new steps to be four feet wide so that will bring me out to either side of that step anyway so I guess the plan there is to dig some sort of step footers. From what I've seen online, the step footers typically don't go as deep as the deck footers? Now that I have a better idea of where I'm going, I can get back to the tearing off and cleaning up.


almost but you get the height by going out level and measuring the height where the stairs land. Then you get into the math. :wink2:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Didn't photograph it but that brings it up to 32 1/2.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Didn't photograph it but that brings it up to 32 1/2.


I added 1" for the decking on top of that so you will have 4 steps and 5 risers at 6.7"


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Didn't photograph it but that brings it up to 32 1/2.


If you back to the 8 feet you could just add to that top step with out to much difficulty.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> When you change the out side. are you going to move that cable as low as you can so it will be under the new deck?


So I'm going to have to drill through the foundation to feed that cable through by the looks. I should probably just invest in a hammer frill if they are not too expensive.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm going to have to drill through the foundation to feed that cable through by the looks. I should probably just invest in a hammer frill if they are not too expensive.


*rotary hammer* drill and the are a little pricey but they really do a nice job. 
You will be raising a step in front of the door, so the cable could go higher into the bottom of the rim. 
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Tools-Power-Tools-Drills-Rotary-Hammers/N-5yc1vZc8wv


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm getting this bottom course of vinyl siding off as what's recommended and the starter strip but my question is what's my next step after cleaning up all of the rot and mess. How do I flash this thing and how do I get that bottom strip back on?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I'm getting this bottom course of vinyl siding off as what's recommended and the starter strip but my question is what's my next step after cleaning up all of the rot and mess. How do I flash this thing and how do I get that bottom strip back on?


 It will clip back on just in the reverse of taking it off. 

If we lower the deck, you will have to decide how to finish the wall below the siding but what ever that is the flashing will go behind the starter strip. 

The other problem is, you have no house wrap and we can see how water does get passed the siding like around the outlet.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So then it seems like I will have to do some sort of house wrap down low where I'm replacing and pulling siding. I'm wondering how far up I should go. There is no putting house wrap on save taking the entire wall down of siding. No I have no interest in doing that. I also have to replace some of that rotted sheathing I'm wondering if zip system is the thing to use there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So then it seems like I will have to do some sort of house wrap down low where I'm replacing and pulling siding. I'm wondering how far up I should go. There is no putting house wrap on save taking the entire wall down of siding. No I have no interest in doing that. I also have to replace some of that rotted sheathing I'm wondering if zip system is the thing to use there.


 What we have done is paper the area we have open just like we would if there was paper everywhere and if the siding is ever removed or changed that person can just add to ours and carry on. 

Windows and door will always leak sooner or later and need work so having paper to add to is a bonus when that work is needed. You just tape the top of the paper or use a peel and stick so any water coming down behind the siding has a path out.
We always use a heavy tar paper for what we do and the siding guys often use house wraps and mixing the two is fine as long as they are installed shingle style with over laps. 

I would put tar paper as far up as you can behind that lose siding and still tape it with red tuck tape. Then when you want to put a flashing in later you can just cut the paper and tuck the flashing behind it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So so fold the bottom of the house wrap under itself leaving enough to go up over the flashing? From everything I'm reading Z flashing seems to be what they recommend for over the top of a ledger board. So if I'm understanding it correctly I'm going to put the top of that z flashing under my house wrap the bottom part of the wrap over the ledger board. The smaller quantities of house wrap that I need for this relatively small job come in three foot widths. I do most of my shopping at Lowe's since I get a 10% veterans discount. Are there any brands at Lowe's including Lowe's brand that I should absolutely avoid?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Cutting out the rot in this section. There is more than I thought at first. This is going to take a few sessions. There were Carpenter ants and maybe powder post beetles.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Cutting out the rot in this section. There is more than I thought at first. This is going to take a few sessions. There were Carpenter ants and maybe powder post beetles.


It might be fast to rip out sections and change it, you have the new one behind it so nothing will fall down.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I guess I decided to start cutting away that board after all I have the board behind kind of being held in place as I replace. I found the rot to be more extensive than I originally thought it was it's going up into the door frame. Obviously the previous owners try to hide the rot in the door frame by filling it in with some wood putty or some such thing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I guess I decided to start cutting away that board after all I have the board behind kind of being held in place as I replace. I found the rot to be more extensive than I originally thought it was it's going up into the door frame. Obviously the previous owners try to hide the rot in the door frame by filling it in with some wood putty or some such thing.


When you installed the board inside, did you nail it in place or just bolt it?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Not yet, but now that I'm talking the other out I will toe nail it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Not yet, but now that I'm talking the other out I will toe nail it.


 Shorter nails up under the door. :wink2:
For the door I would find a local real door shop who could build you a new jam, So you could drop off the door and side light. 

You can leave that until after the deck.


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## RockyMtBeerMan (Dec 12, 2018)

Might want to use some PT wood. Red Gard works well at blocking water, too.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Finally got this completed and another picture to post. There is another two sections of 2x10 on the inside of this one. I'm close to being ready to start the actual deck work. I got my permit this week. The code enforcement officer suggested I could drop a bag of concrete still in the paper down on the bottom of my footer holes place a post on top of that cover it up and call it good. Well I don't know that this is necessarily sound advice even considering he's a builder. I am wondering if there is an alternative to using all that concrete and sonotubes because it is just an awful lot of concrete to be mixing and pouring. Or is that really the best option. What about those Bigfoot forms that they sell at Lowe's? Are they a good thing. Still trying to figure out the thickness of the footers that I need to be for the deck that I'm building but I guess there's information to be had on that on x.com.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Finally got this completed and another picture to post. There is another two sections of 2x10 on the inside of this one. I'm close to being ready to start the actual deck work. I got my permit this week. The code enforcement officer suggested I could drop a bag of concrete still in the paper down on the bottom of my footer holes place a post on top of that cover it up and call it good. Well I don't know that this is necessarily sound advice even considering he's a builder. I am wondering if there is an alternative to using all that concrete and sonotubes because it is just an awful lot of concrete to be mixing and pouring. Or is that really the best option. What about those Bigfoot forms that they sell at Lowe's? Are they a good thing. Still trying to figure out the thickness of the footers that I need to be for the deck that I'm building but I guess there's information to be had on that on x.com.


 That is looking better. 

We just dig the holes like 16" across and fill the bottom 6 to 8 inches and set the tube on that, and push it down an inch and drop on a piece of rebar and wait about a 1/2 hour and then fill it up and set the post saddle and make sure they line up straight with the building. 

We build a frame work that will just lay on the ground to position you right and will hole the tube straight. 8" tube is plenty and just 3" above ground level.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

What is the footing spacing on the drawing above with the attachment to the house. And how to attach to the house? Do I attach a ledger board to that side to the house?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> What is the footing spacing on the drawing above with the attachment to the house. And how to attach to the house? Do I attach a ledger board to that side to the house?


We have to get into details of the deck.
14" below the house floor, does that put the ledger onto the foundation? 

Will that leave enough room to put a beam below the deck on the outside or do we have to build the beam into the frame? 



Can you give me these measurements. I think the green is the shape of the main deck


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I have submitted this plan to the Code enforcement officer for my building permit. 9 feet out from the door entry, 11 feet out from the back part of the house.15 feet across from the front corner to the side of the house and 20 feet back to the point that meets the utility shed. I do believe there is room for a beam below the deck but will measure it again. It shows footers where it will attach to the house because the deck software would only let me attach to the house along one surface.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I am also considering cutting back to 8 feet and 10 feet but that would have the steps landing short on the crooked top step and don't know if that would be a problem with the permit department as I've already submitted the other plan. But, it would save me on lumber costs.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I have submitted this plan to the Code enforcement officer for my building permit. 9 feet out from the door entry, 11 feet out from the back part of the house.15 feet across from the front corner to the side of the house and 20 feet back to the point that meets the utility shed. I do believe there is room for a beam below the deck but will measure it again. It shows footers where it will attach to the house because the deck software would only let me attach to the house along one surface.


 I am having problems playing with your picture so give me a little time to draw up what I am thinking. 

I am thinking you need steps up to the shed so you could raise that section of deck 7 1/4" with the joist going the other way in there so the ledger would be under the window for that.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I have submitted this plan to the Code enforcement officer for my building permit. 9 feet out from the door entry, 11 feet out from the back part of the house.15 feet across from the front corner to the side of the house and 20 feet back to the point that meets the utility shed. I do believe there is room for a beam below the deck but will measure it again. It shows footers where it will attach to the house because the deck software would only let me attach to the house along one surface.



I am having trouble reading the numbers on your print so i am still faking it. 

I think it says 20 ft cross. 

I backed up the beam 1 ft and moved the one post in 1 ft .
A 2 ply 2x10 beam should span 10 ft 

I haven't the hanger but Simpson's have one to go to concrete. 

We always allow for a paint grade to go around the perimeter on the rim 2" taller than the rim so it is easier to add stairs and you can add lattice behind the 2".


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I am also considering cutting back to 8 feet and 10 feet but that would have the steps landing short on the crooked top step and don't know if that would be a problem with the permit department as I've already submitted the other plan. But, it would save me on lumber costs.


That crooked step would be an hour or 2 with a 10 pound sledge just dig the dirt out from below what you want to break.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So it looks like I attach the one corner to the side of the house and i only need 
two footers?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Hopefully better from my phone. Seems like i can do this with 2x8 boards but the deck planning software calls for 2x10.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm watching a video where they're attaching ledger board directly to the concrete wall not using any flashing is it not necessary to use flashing when you're securing to the concrete foundation?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I'm watching a video where they're attaching ledger board directly to the concrete wall not using any flashing is it not necessary to use flashing when you're securing to the concrete foundation?


 No, it's not called for but it is a good idea to keep water off the top. depending on how close you are to the siding you might put one ther or even above the decking behind the siding. 

If you are taping the top of the joists, there is a primer that will stick that stuff to concrete and you just run it up the wall an inch so it is out of side when the decking is on.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I am having trouble reading the numbers on your print so i am still faking it.
> 
> I think it says 20 ft cross.
> 
> ...


I was just talking about receding the footings and the beam by one foot with the guy at 84 Lumber. They are working on a price for my materials.I can use 2x8 rather than 2x10 as the deck software plan calls for. It is 15 feet across at the front. 20 feet at the longest point, but I'm counting on support from the house foundation in that space by the shed.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I think I'm also planning to drop the overall width from 9 and 11 feet to 8 and 10 feet. It will save me on waste and possibly as much as $100. I'll deal with where it hits the crooked step either by chipping that out of notching the inner two step stringers.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I think I'm also planning to drop the overall width from 9 and 11 feet to 8 and 10 feet. It will save me on waste and possibly as much as $100. I'll deal with where it hits the crooked step either by chipping that out of notching the inner two step stringers.


Sounds good, we build everything with 2x10s here so that is what always come to my thinking. :wink2:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I got this uncovered so I can flash it. Also got a 3-ft roll of house wrap to put behind this. I think I need to pick up a roll of sticky flashing tape of some sort.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I got this uncovered so I can flash it. Also got a 3-ft roll of house wrap to put behind this. I think I need to pick up a roll of sticky flashing tape of some sort.


 Like this 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-5-8-in-x-50-ft-Butyl-Joist-Tape-398228/311992207
And
https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-1-8-in-x-50-ft-Butyl-Joist-Tape-398229/311992231
And if you want to stick it to concrete 

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/bakor-blueskin-ultra-primer-425g/1000403480
You need a proper box with cover and J box for the siding.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I have this one that I took off that I plan to reuse.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So a photographic walkthrough prior to digging footings. The posts that I have hammered are not exactly square, but close. I plan on digging the footings one foot set back from the corner one and diagonally and one foot set back in the middle one. As I understand it, I can find a Simpson hanger that will allow me to securely hang the end of that beam onto my concrete foundation as opposed to digging another footing. I haven't got this exactly square with the batter boards yet but I'm thinking the post holes are going to be kind of large and I should be able to accurately center a tube in the middle of that. How does one typically go about digging post holes are they mostly dug by hand? That seems like a lot of digging. I have an option to rent for a day for about $90 a post hole auger. It's going to be kind of limited though The guy said it will only go down 42 inches max and it will dig a 10-ft diameter max hole. But I'm thinking it will give me a good start and I can probably finish the rest by hand. I'm wondering if it's worth it to rent one of those. Plus I've also been in contact with a deck building company that drills in helical peers and I'm wondering if they would just do that for me and how much that would cost but I'm expecting a call back from them later, but they don't always call back when you expect them to. I'm feeling pressure to get these footings dug. So my measurements here are 8 feet away feet the house to the deck corner. The house sets back another 2 feet beyond that point. The planned footings are 8 feet apart or maybe 7 feet including the 1 foot setback. The inside footer is 7 feet from the concrete foundation wall that I plan to attach to.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It was suggested that I change the direction and add a ledger board to the back wall of the shed alcove space. But, won't I also have to change the direction of my deck boards if I do that? Is that the best alternative, or could I also attache to the two walls that will have my joists going in the same direction?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Working on this today. I'm sure I screwed it up but I got house wrap behind the last three feet or so and it's got to be better than it was.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I thought about going down one more course of vinyl but that would have me putting a starter strip in the concrete foundation I don't think I want to do that. I'm going to have to come up with something else to finish that up with some kind of belly board as was proposed earlier in this thread.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I thought about going down one more course of vinyl but that would have me putting a starter strip in the concrete foundation I don't think I want to do that. I'm going to have to come up with something else to finish that up with some kind of belly board as was proposed earlier in this thread.


 If you do a belly band, you would do that before the siding because it would need flashing.
Or you could do the flashing now and fit the band later.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

How deep is the frost depth there?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Humble beginnings of a footings hole just want to know if I'm in the right spot.?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Humble beginnings of a footings hole just want to know if I'm in the right spot.?


centered a foot short and a foot narrow. :wink2:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> If you do a belly band, you would do that before the siding because it would need flashing.
> Or you could do the flashing now and fit the band later.


Where would the flashing start and end for the belly board? Like how far up under the siding and how low?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> centered a foot short and a foot narrow. :wink2:


a foot short in which direction?I thought the beam was supposed to be set back a foot from the joist ends. So am I centering my that footer out to the corner? Or do I need to push it back a foot? I think the hole will grow as I dig down.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> a foot short in which direction?I thought the beam was supposed to be set back a foot from the joist ends. So am I centering my that footer out to the corner? Or do I need to push it back a foot? I think the hole will grow as I dig down.


Yes, the beam will be back on foot from the front and the post one foot short of the side of the deck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Where would the flashing start and end for the belly board? Like how far up under the siding and how low?


 Oops. this guy says you can put the flashing in later. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeY8wRnpp


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Where would the flashing start and end for the belly board? Like how far up under the siding and how low?


 Oops. this guy says you can put the flashing in later.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Here's another question I'm not able to find an answer to on the web, my plan is to use 2x8s because I have a lot left over and it's adequate for the span that I'm planning. The question though is do I still use 10x10 in the ledger and on the beam or does that also need to match the 2x8 dimension?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Brief rundown on my deck build It's going to be 8 ft out from the front part 10 ft out from the recessed part 15 ft across at the front 20 ft across at the widest point but I'm stepping up to the shed deck with a ledger board under the window that rests on the main deck with 2x8s and I'm also building a step up to the front door 3 ft wide and the width of the jot outs with 2x8s that rest against the main deck frame. So my joist direction changes in both of these step up areas my question is then is I'm going to am I going to have to also change the direction of my finished decking and how will that look? I do plan to frame all of the decking whichever direction it goes.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Here's another question I'm not able to find an answer to on the web, my plan is to use 2x8s because I have a lot left over and it's adequate for the span that I'm planning. The question though is do I still use 10x10 in the ledger and on the beam or does that also need to match the 2x8 dimension?


Usually they match the size but bigger is fine if you have it already.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Brief rundown on my deck build It's going to be 8 ft out from the front part 10 ft out from the recessed part 15 ft across at the front 20 ft across at the widest point but I'm stepping up to the shed deck with a ledger board under the window that rests on the main deck with 2x8s and I'm also building a step up to the front door 3 ft wide and the width of the jot outs with 2x8s that rest against the main deck frame. So my joist direction changes in both of these step up areas my question is then is I'm going to am I going to have to also change the direction of my finished decking and how will that look? I do plan to frame all of the decking whichever direction it goes.


At the shed it will change direction .
At the front door you can just build a box with short joist in the same direction as the deck and screw it down.
The box for the front door step will not have to attach to the house. 

Then the decking is the same direction 

When you get closer to laying out the joist we can work out the details.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Ledger is next, 2x8 or 2x10 for the ledger and beam? Using 2x8 for the joist' do they need to match?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Ledger is next, 2x8 or 2x10 for the ledger and beam? Using 2x8 for the joist' do they need to match?


They usually match.. Will you be using anchor bolts into the concrete?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I will be anchoring into the concrete. Stranely, i could not find wedge anchors that are approved for use with PT lumber, only zinc plated.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I will be anchoring into the concrete. Stranely, i could not find wedge anchors that are approved for use with PT lumber, only zinc plated.


 1/2" hot dipped galvanized is the normal 

On the ledger you want to figure out the lay out first, so you don't put bolts where the hangers want to go. 

Will the step at the front door go all the way under those wing walls?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yes my plan is to extend it under the wing walls. And there should be plenty of room because the original deck came up to just inches under the door entrance.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes my plan is to extend it under the wing walls. And there should be plenty of room because the original deck came up to just inches under the door entrance.


 We want the end of the step to land on a joist and then you need a joist to screw down the other deck 

I am thinking the 2 foot ledger should be 4 or 5 ft to help with that.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes my plan is to extend it under the wing walls. And there should be plenty of room because the original deck came up to just inches under the door entrance.



I found the hanger for the beam, depending on cost you could also just bolt a short ledger there and use a 2 ply joist hanger. 

https://www.strongtie.com/facemount...angers/lgum-hgum_productgroup_wcc/p/lgum.hgum


It is heavy duty for beams and girders.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I found the hanger for the beam, depending on cost you could also just bolt a short ledger there and use a 2 ply joist hanger.
> 
> https://www.strongtie.com/facemount...angers/lgum-hgum_productgroup_wcc/p/lgum.hgum
> 
> ...


Having difficulty finding this one online. Found a galvanized version, not for treated lumber for $93. But I can't used that one.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I am thinking the 2 foot ledger should be 4 or 5 ft to help with that.


Not sure what you mean by this.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I've been looking for these wedge anchors. The search is proven difficult. As I understand it I need 1/2 in diameter by 4-in length hot dip galvanized for the treated lumber I'm going into. Lowes has all kinds of zinc plated wedge anchors none that I can use and only one size of hot dip galvanized which I think we're way too long like 5 in. Could I go bigger if that's all I can find? I haven't checked out home Depot or 84 lumber yet.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Didn't find anything called kick out flashing at Lowes. I found these three profiles. One is Z flashing, one is drip edge, one is vinyl specifically for ledger boards. Wonder of I can use the Z for between my vinyl siding and the belly board.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Found these at Lowe's today The wrap is sure that the nails are adequate for what I need I'm not sure if the tie is going to be adequate for the double end beam where I'm planning it or will it be adequate with the ledger board that I will need to attach there.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

This is really all I'm finding on the shelves. Is five and a half going to be too long? I read a post earlier in the thread that recommended 4-in long anchor bolts but I'm not finding those I'm only finding these 5 and 1/2-in long ones. I can order 4-in length bolts but it's going to take a while to get them maybe till mid-September.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Didn't find anything called kick out flashing at Lowes. I found these three profiles. One is Z flashing, one is drip edge, one is vinyl specifically for ledger boards. Wonder of I can use the Z for between my vinyl siding and the belly board.


 You can use the aluminum as long as the band board is *not treated* ,
If your ledger is just on concrete and you have a flashing above the band board. I wouldn't bother with the ledger one.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> This is really all I'm finding on the shelves. Is five and a half going to be too long? I read a post earlier in the thread that recommended 4-in long anchor bolts but I'm not finding those I'm only finding these 5 and 1/2-in long ones. I can order 4-in length bolts but it's going to take a while to get them maybe till mid-September.


They will work and you will need that length for one spot at the shed.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Not sure what you mean by this.


 Where we are putting a box for a raised step on to of the joist we need something to nail the lower decking to.
See the red arrows in both areas we need double joists. 

The one at the font door you can just have that short one made long enough .
See the black arrow , just make that ledger a little long so for the hanger to nail to it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Found these at Lowe's today The wrap is sure that the nails are adequate for what I need I'm not sure if the tie is going to be adequate for the double end beam where I'm planning it or will it be adequate with the ledger board that I will need to attach there.



Those are the right nails for the nails that go straight into the ledger but the nails that go in the side on an angle need to be HDG 3" or 3 1/4" long. 



I think the hanger is fine.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Post hole footings dog rented a power auger from Taylor rental. The one I had success just going in with the 8-in auger that they gave me and that one isn't much more than 8-in in diameter. Which is about what I need for my sonoIt took me a day and a half to dig that auger out of there It was about 42 in deep and it was mired in damp clay down at the bottom not even any rocks. tube I think 8-in. I need to widen the bottom of it for the footing which means I'm probably going to widen the top of it to get at the bottom to widen it a little bit. The other one I got a 10-in auger stuck in there and I had a dig all around it so it is very big around and it's going to be a lot of backfill to get that one right but still only going to be an 8-in signal tube with a footer at the bottom.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Post hole footings dog rented a power auger from Taylor rental. The one I had success just going in with the 8-in auger that they gave me and that one isn't much more than 8-in in diameter. Which is about what I need for my sonoIt took me a day and a half to dig that auger out of there It was about 42 in deep and it was mired in damp clay down at the bottom not even any rocks. tube I think 8-in. I need to widen the bottom of it for the footing which means I'm probably going to widen the top of it to get at the bottom to widen it a little bit. The other one I got a 10-in auger stuck in there and I had a dig all around it so it is very big around and it's going to be a lot of backfill to get that one right but still only going to be an 8-in signal tube with a footer at the bottom.


 Sounds like you have been having fun. 

You might use a 5 ft digging bar to make the small hole bigger at the bottom.
If you build a frame of sorts to sit on the ground and hold the top of the tubes where you want them.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> See the black arrow , just make that ledger a little long so for the hanger to nail to it.


So the ledger on the recessed house front which measures about 7 feet needs to be a little longer than 7 feet to accommodate a double hanger. Then that joist that extends to the beam gets two wedge anchor bolts into the shed foundation for added support before it rests on the end of the beam that is hung on the double hanger. And then the short ledger behind that beam hanger only needs to be just a little wider than the hanger itself?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So the ledger on the recessed house front which measures about 7 feet needs to be a little longer than 7 feet to accommodate a double hanger. Then that joist that extends to the beam gets two wedge anchor bolts into the shed foundation for added support before it rests on the end of the beam that is hung on the double hanger. And then the short ledger behind that beam hanger only needs to be just a little wider than the hanger itself?


 The bolts are long enough to bolt thru the double joist at the shed corner.
So what ever that distance to the shed is just add a foot for the second one. 

The short one for the beam, maybe 12 inches, to short it may just split. 



Yes I think you have it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It occurred to me that this all must have started with vinyl. So it's not logical that the starter strip would fall below so I dry fitted this again and came to a very happy realization that I can in fact nail the starter strip on the bottom at a bottom course of vinyl I will be doing that instead of any kind of a belly board It will be a lot cheaper and simpler.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> It occurred to me that this all must have started with vinyl. So it's not logical that the starter strip would fall below so I dry fitted this again and came to a very happy realization that I can in fact nail the starter strip on the bottom at a bottom course of vinyl I will be doing that instead of any kind of a belly board It will be a lot cheaper and simpler.


So you could put all the vinyl back up now? :wink2:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Jim F said:
> 
> 
> > So you could put all the vinyl back up now?
> ...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Nealtw said:
> 
> 
> > Yes hoping to find what I need a few pieces and some starter strips at the material store on Tuesday when they open back up.
> ...


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

There is wood under that vinyl unprotected wood that jeez!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> There is wood under that vinyl unprotected wood that jeez!


Is that the top of the concrete or is that just strapping?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I believe that is 3/4 plywood sheathing.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I believe that is 3/4 plywood sheathing.


You could just add some flat 3" or 4" wide sheet metal up behind the starter.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Planning to pour my footings Friday what i have the day off as well the ledger boards. Here I thought i was all set with a plan but then I read that I actually need to mount a double ledger to accommodate the 3 inch 10D nails I'll need for the joist hangers to be up to code. Sound right?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Planning to pour my footings Friday what i have the day off as well the ledger boards. Here I thought i was all set with a plan but then I read that I actually need to mount a double ledger to accommodate the 3 inch 10D nails I'll need for the joist hangers to be up to code. Sound right?


 Hot dip gal. 3" with heads, yes I don't know from 10d.:biggrin2:
Do you have use of a rotary hammer drill for those anchor bolts.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Hot dip gal. 3" with heads, yes I don't know from 10d.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, bought a cheap hammer drill, well see how it does. I guess that's a go for the double deck ledger as the 3 inch nails won't drive into the concrete like s room joist.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes, bought a cheap hammer drill, well see how it does. I guess that's a go for the double deck ledger as the 3 inch nails won't drive into the concrete like s room joist.



The three inch nails are for the hangers that the nails do not go straight in the joist but on an angle. Use the short ones for the ones going to the ledger 



Good luck with a hammer drill. Nothing like a rotary hammer.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Jim F said:
> 
> 
> > Good luck with a hammer drill. Nothing like a rotary hammer.
> ...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Nealtw said:
> 
> 
> > Looked up rotary vs hammer drill. I'll have to exchange one for the other. Harbor Freight has rotary drills of varying prices. I wonder how much drill I need to buy for my limited use.
> ...


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

My plan was to be 7 ft out from the house to the center It looks like I'm closer to 6 1/2 ft out from the center My plan was to have 1 ft of setback from the beam I'm wondering if a can tolerate a foot and a half. or should I really dig that hole out and move that center out another 6 in?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Footers and post for now took five bags. It is what it is Hope it's all lined up and centered good I did do all that as I set the tubes.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Footers and post for now took five bags. It is what it is Hope it's all lined up and centered good I did do all that as I set the tubes.


It looks good, do you have a certain post saddle on mind?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> It looks good, do you have a certain post saddle on mind?


 I bought two basic 4x4 post saddles are there other kinds?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I bought two basic 4x4 post saddles are there other kinds?


I have not seen one that you place a bolt for. There is a bunch of different kinds, Should have been 6x6 but I won't tell any one.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I have not seen one that you place a bolt for. There is a bunch of different kinds, Should have been 6x6 but I won't tell any one.


6x6 was and still is an option. They cost all lot more and the guy at the 84 Lumber said 6x6 was overkill. Now I'm thinking I should go with 6x6.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> 6x6 was and still is an option. They cost all lot more and the guy at the 84 Lumber said 6x6 was overkill. Now I'm thinking I should go with 6x6.


 It likely is overkill but we haven't been able to use 4x4 for about 20 years. 

And you can notch them so the beam sits in the notch and you bolt thru. 

If you are getting inspections you likely should go with 6x6 or check with them about the 4x4.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Jim= why did you dig those holes so large ?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> Jim= why did you dig those holes so large ?


A few posts up you'll see where I got an auger stuck in the one hole and had to dig out around it to get it out. The other hole is just over 8 in in diameter which is the size of ager that I use for that hole.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Jim F said:


> A few posts up you'll see where I got an auger stuck in the one hole and had to dig out around it to get it out. The other hole is just over 8 in in diameter which is the size of ager that I use for that hole.


gotcha


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Found a really good match for my missing siding on the bottom. They had to order it and it only takes a day for them to get the order in. It was a bit of a drive out the local supplier that most of the contractors swear by could only sell me what they had in stock. The color is wheat. The new panels are slightly darker than the existing panels but barely noticeable. It wasn't that much either it was only like $8.50 per 12-ft section. I've got the starter strip temp nailed up and will permanently nail it with the Z flashing under it which I also have started. I've got it sitting about a quarter inch or a little more beneath the lower panel and under the starter and above the house wrap. Hoping that that's right. I didn't think the Z needed to be quite that low below the panel but I also am going to need space to attach this panel to the starter strip. It's too cold this morning to do anything more with a vinyl. I was hoping it the sun would warm it up enough before I have to head out to work, but that's not going to happen. Hopefully tomorrow I can wrap this up.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The question was asked a few posts back, "what is under the siding under the shed door?" I got some more detailed pictures and I believe the foundation ends right where it appears to and the inside picture is verifies that. there is maybe a 12 or 14-in strip of 3/4 plywood that of course is not properly flashed that I'll have to address. But the deck is going to end up below that level even at this upper deck level.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Laying out my first deck ledger here. I'm thinking that my rim joist wants to be on the outside of that ledger to go flush with the house foundation. And then the rim joist will be structurally screwed into the end of the ledger board and it will double up with the first joist of the deck. So I'm thinking that that deck ledger needs to be cut down that inch and a half width of the outer rim joist. Or should I hang the rim joist onto the ledger board with the outer joist on a double hanger?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Laying out my first deck ledger here. I'm thinking that my rim joist wants to be on the outside of that ledger to go flush with the house foundation. And then the rim joist will be structurally screwed into the end of the ledger board and it will double up with the first joist of the deck. So I'm thinking that that deck ledger needs to be cut down that inch and a half width of the outer rim joist. Or should I hang the rim joist onto the ledger board with the outer joist on a double hanger?



You need this style of hanger for that . If the ledger is cut back the joist next to it gets a single hanger.
Or you can hang them both in the double hanger.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Found a really good match for my missing siding on the bottom. They had to order it and it only takes a day for them to get the order in. It was a bit of a drive out the local supplier that most of the contractors swear by could only sell me what they had in stock. The color is wheat. The new panels are slightly darker than the existing panels but barely noticeable. It wasn't that much either it was only like $8.50 per 12-ft section. I've got the starter strip temp nailed up and will permanently nail it with the Z flashing under it which I also have started. I've got it sitting about a quarter inch or a little more beneath the lower panel and under the starter and above the house wrap. Hoping that that's right. I didn't think the Z needed to be quite that low below the panel but I also am going to need space to attach this panel to the starter strip. It's too cold this morning to do anything more with a vinyl. I was hoping it the sun would warm it up enough before I have to head out to work, but that's not going to happen. Hopefully tomorrow I can wrap this up.


Looks good, put the flashing down 1/4 to 1./2" below the siding.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It feels like I'm overthinking this by a lot. I was thinking in terms of attaching a single outer joist with an inside face joist and then having the rim joist attached to hide the butt end of the rim. But that leaves me with only one structural member on the outside and my question is do I actually need to. And that leaves me with a choice of hanging two on a double hanger and perhaps having the rim joist as a third since it's non-structural on the outside of that. This could work as I am planning on having a border with the decking around where the main decking is going perpendicular to the joist the border piece will run parallel to those so maybe having three out there is the thing to do? there's no way to make that rim joist structural as far as I can tell I know that I can't screw or nail it into the end of the rim joist all I can do is throw bolt it to that outer joist with bolts or with the structural screws that they sell now.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

If you just run the ledger out to the end and used a concealed flange hanger for the double.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> If you just run the ledger out to the end and used a concealed flange hanger for the double.


 A couple of questions about these concealed flange hangers. I'm not finding doubles in the store I'm going to have to order them online and it's quite more expensive. I'm wondering if I can use two singles side-by-side to run double joists. Seems like I should be able to. The other thing is they only have nail holes in the center of them and I can only put in the inch and a half nails in there or do I need the structural screws that the Simpson sells for hangers?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> A couple of questions about these concealed flange hangers. I'm not finding doubles in the store I'm going to have to order them online and it's quite more expensive. I'm wondering if I can use two singles side-by-side to run double joists. Seems like I should be able to. The other thing is they only have nail holes in the center of them and I can only put in the inch and a half nails in there or do I need the structural screws that the Simpson sells for hangers?


 Actually a single has the same number of nails as a double. We get away with using a single and just nailing the next joist to the first. If you did that you could use a regular hanger and just cut the last one 1/4" shorter to allow for hanger and nails. We are not allowed to use screws so they all get 1 1/2" hanger nails.
And yes I think 2 singles would work too.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I've got 1/2-in concrete wedge bolts for the ledger that are 4 in in length as was recommended. Cannot seem to find a consensus online about the spacing most say in a w pattern some say 12 in on center some say 16 on center. Would 16 on center be adequate or should I go 12 on center to be extra safe?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I've got 1/2-in concrete wedge bolts for the ledger that are 4 in in length as was recommended. Cannot seem to find a consensus online about the spacing most say in a w pattern some say 12 in on center some say 16 on center. Would 16 on center be adequate or should I go 12 on center to be extra safe?


 16 OC is good enough W pattern is good.
Figure out where the joists will go and do the lay out first so you don't end up moving joist because bolts are in the way. :wink2:


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I've got 1/2-in concrete wedge bolts for the ledger that are 4 in in length as was recommended. Cannot seem to find a consensus online about the spacing most say in a w pattern some say 12 in on center some say 16 on center. Would 16 on center be adequate or should I go 12 on center to be extra safe?


Be sure to have a nut on the bolts before you hammer them in.:vs_cool:


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Started setting these 4-in galvanized concrete anchors for my ledger board. I have the rotary hammer drill I have the Bosch SDS 6-in half inch drill bits the first two holes went well I drilled them out I blew out the dust tap them in They tightened right up. Next two holes not such good luck seem to chew out more material I went to hammer them in and tighten them up and they did not tighten the bolt just turn when I tried to tighten it. So I can't understand what's going on did my bit fail? I really don't know. Open to suggestions.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Started setting these 4-in galvanized concrete anchors for my ledger board. I have the rotary hammer drill I have the Bosch SDS 6-in half inch drill bits the first two holes went well I drilled them out I blew out the dust tap them in They tightened right up. Next two holes not such good luck seem to chew out more material I went to hammer them in and tighten them up and they did not tighten the bolt just turn when I tried to tighten it. So I can't understand what's going on did my bit fail? I really don't know. Open to suggestions.



You likely hit a pocket like an air bubble that didn't get vibrated out. 

I would just do another 3 inches away.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Some updates. Trying to navigate this new site. And figure out how to post new pictures. I got my deck ledger board figured out I did move 3 in beyond the failed ledger bolts that I did added for in total actually today and did not have a failure with any of them. One other thing I did was I switched bits. I had a two-point bit that seemed to be going in kind of aggressively and I wonder if that wasn't part of the problem. But I exchanged that one for a four-point bit and that goes slower but seem to be more successful. But I'm also leaning toward the fact that I may have just hit air pockets in the foundation wall. As was suggested.I haven't quite figured out what I want to do with this space underneath. I have siding to replace. And I'm tempted to go all the way across with it. or I may just extend the siding to the left of the door and just underneath the bump out wall on the right and do something else below the door. extending the siding all the way across would give me about a three or four inch kind of toe kick area where I can put some kind of material in. Some of the siding would be showing above my step up for the future deck that's going in there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Some updates. Trying to navigate this new site. And figure out how to post new pictures. I got my deck ledger board figured out I did move 3 in beyond the failed ledger bolts that I did added for in total actually today and did not have a failure with any of them. One other thing I did was I switched bits. I had a two-point bit that seemed to be going in kind of aggressively and I wonder if that wasn't part of the problem. But I exchanged that one for a four-point bit and that goes slower but seem to be more successful. But I'm also leaning toward the fact that I may have just hit air pockets in the foundation wall. As was suggested.I haven't quite figured out what I want to do with this space underneath. I have siding to replace. And I'm tempted to go all the way across with it. or I may just extend the siding to the left of the door and just underneath the bump out wall on the right and do something else below the door. extending the siding all the way across would give me about a three or four inch kind of toe kick area where I can put some kind of material in. Some of the siding would be showing above my step up for the future deck that's going in there.


I have never seen a bit with more than 2 cutters, so I think it was just poorly vibrated concrete.
So if you have siding in those 2 little sections, you would have to figure some way to work in a corner on both sides where there is no corner now.
I think I would go right across with one piece of siding with a cut out for 4" of wood just under the door.
Can you post a picture of one side where the corner will stick out?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I I think this is what you're looking for. I guess there are outside corners I could use. I hadn't planned beyond just using two piece of J.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> View attachment 630020
> View attachment 630021
> I I think this is what you're looking for. I guess there are outside corners I could use. I hadn't planned beyond just using two piece of J.


I guess that is as good as anything else as long as you do a good job of house wrap behind the corner. 
On the right side , the siding could have been down below the wood on the wing wall.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I guess that is as good as anything else as long as you do a good job of house wrap behind the corner.
> On the right side , the siding could have been down below the wood on the wing wall.


There are two aluminum pieces that get nailed back on there. I'm going to have to lay on my back to do it though.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

But that could still be a worthwhile thing to do. I have the materials to do it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm finally in the planning stages of framing this deck It's looking like I'm going to have 8 ft and then add another 3-in on either end one for the ledger board one for the rim joist on the main part of the deck It's looking like I would end up with an exact number of five and a half inch decking boards on the number being 18. Or am I missing something? And then on the longer section where it is 10 ft and total length I'm not going to end up with an even number if that is 10 ft plus the same three inches so 10 ft 3 in that number doesn't divide evenly into the 5 1/2. So naturally I'm wondering how best if any I can plan the length of the shorter one maybe cut the 8-ft boards a little longer so I end up with something even. Any ideas? I'll continue to sit down and try to work out the math on this. But it doesn't look like it's going to quite work out. On


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

We usually just start on the outside and work in and cut the one against the house to fit. the trim or siding hides that.
The step at the door will sit on the framing so it can be adjusted to fit the layout if you want then you can just worry about the 10 ft section.
I think that step needs to be 3 ft and a little could be added to make it work.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I'm finally in the planning stages of framing this deck It's looking like I'm going to have 8 ft and then add another 3-in on either end one for the ledger board one for the rim joist on the main part of the deck It's looking like I would end up with an exact number of five and a half inch decking boards on the number being 18. Or am I missing something? And then on the longer section where it is 10 ft and total length I'm not going to end up with an even number if that is 10 ft plus the same three inches so 10 ft 3 in that number doesn't divide evenly into the 5 1/2. So naturally I'm wondering how best if any I can plan the length of the shorter one maybe cut the 8-ft boards a little longer so I end up with something even. Any ideas? I'll continue to sit down and try to work out the math on this. But it doesn't look like it's going to quite work out. On


Are you allowing for the space between in that 5 1/2"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I have not considered the space what is that like an eighth of an inch. nope that definitely is going to factor into it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I'm starting to fit the frame together and as I feared I really don't have enough height for any kind of a post 4x4 6x6 either or. As it sits another quarter inch brings it up level between the beam and the joist it's almost nearly level sitting right on that post mounter. I do have 4x4 post holders as well that leaves us a little bit shy I would have to shim a piece into mount that double beam on a 4x4. Also the other footing is going to rise a little higher than that maybe an inch and a half so I've got to come up with some way to mount these things with that low of a clearance because the option of cutting a post to height to level it is not there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm starting to fit the frame together and as I feared I really don't have enough height for any kind of a post 4x4 6x6 either or. As it sits another quarter inch brings it up level between the beam and the joist it's almost nearly level sitting right on that post mounter. I do have 4x4 post holders as well that leaves us a little bit shy I would have to shim a piece into mount that double beam on a 4x4. Also the other footing is going to rise a little higher than that maybe an inch and a half so I've got to come up with some way to mount these things with that low of a clearance because the option of cutting a post to height to level it is not there.


I would go with smaller holder and just shim things to make them work. 
Is one to high for that? 
Lowe's carries this HBC40HDG


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

No the other is lowes by maybe 1-2 inches I think.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> No the other is lowes by maybe 1-2 inches I think.


Sorry, I don't understand.
From the bottom of the beam how much do you have to the concrete?
2x10s beam 9 1/4"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Sorry, I don't understand.
> From the bottom of the beam how much do you have to the concrete?
> 2x10s beam 9 1/4"


The other concrete pier sits slightly lower than the one in the picture. Where I need maybe 1/4 inch to shim level, eother needs maybe 1.5 inches.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So this is what I've actually got going on not quite an inch of rise on the left pier and about 3 in of rise on the right pier And this is off of the 6x6 mounting block. The 4x 4 mounting blocks are about the same height looks to be about an inch off the concrete.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So this is what I've actually got going on not quite an inch of rise on the left pier and about 3 in of rise on the right pier And this is off of the 6x6 mounting block. The 4x 4 mounting blocks are about the same height looks to be about an inch off the concrete.


Maybe something like this.
A spacer cut to fit the right height and a 2x6 on each side to fill the 6" holder.
These holders are designed to sit on flat concrete so you might need to mix up some mortar to set them on and level under them, so they don't bend down.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I had just swapped out the 6x6s for the 4x4s. I'm thinking I might try to use those 4x4s after all that will be a less wide base and less opportunity to bend down. I did realize that afterward and tried to file the tops down a little bit flatter but kind of a job now that it's set. I wish I had set them flat to begin with but they tell you to set them slightly rounded.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Anything wrong with using a section of pressure-treated 2x4 and 4x4 to shim this beam? Looks like that might be the answer to my conundrum. I may have to shave just a hair off the 2x4 with my table saw.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Anything wrong with using a section of pressure-treated 2x4 and 4x4 to shim this beam? Looks like that might be the answer to my conundrum. I may have to shave just a hair off the 2x4 with my table saw.


You are in that wonderful place we find ourselves in from time to time. Just do what ever you have to do to make it work.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Anything wrong with using a section of pressure-treated 2x4 and 4x4 to shim this beam? Looks like that might be the answer to my conundrum. I may have to shave just a hair off the 2x4 with my table saw.


With the dome in the concrete my fear would be that the holder could bend over time. 
Maybe you could put a big dent in the bottom so it sits down better.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I bought a couple of thick reinforcing plates with the same kind of adjustable spot like the post holders have in them. The plan is to put those up under the post holder in the hopes of preventing them from bending in over time. They are about an eighth inch thick or look to be that thick anyway.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It's starting to come together!


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Got this brand of flashing tape from Amazon. Barricade, with a bear picture on it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I have this stuff to drain the rain pipes under the deck. I think the jounts can be primed and glued together but I've heard different things. I have screws as a back up but I'd rather not use them.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Pro-poly , I think is the glue for that, but I have been wrong before.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Two types of hurricane ties I found. I started using the one type to the end board I haven't put in all the nails yet. I'm trying to decide if I still want to use this other type that I have It seems like kind of a double tie. I'm thinking I need one on each side of the of the first type and the other kind of works for both sides. I haven't decided if I want to use those yet or exchange them for the more conventional ones that I have on the end boards. Are these even appropriate for what I'm doing? I think they are.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

By the time I get this closed in I'm not going to have any access under the back part of this deck which I shouldn't need. I have just barely crawl space under the main part of the deck where there is that electrical junction box should I ever need to do any modifications there. The rain gutter system should be maintenance free. I'm a little bit concerned and have been wondering if I should have some kind of a ground covering under all this be a plastic I think plastic might be the thing but plastic could also let water puddle in places if I'm not careful. Or should I use that landscape fabric?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Two types of hurricane ties I found. I started using the one type to the end board I haven't put in all the nails yet. I'm trying to decide if I still want to use this other type that I have It seems like kind of a double tie. I'm thinking I need one on each side of the of the first type and the other kind of works for both sides. I haven't decided if I want to use those yet or exchange them for the more conventional ones that I have on the end boards. Are these even appropriate for what I'm doing? I think they are.


When we do roof trusses we get either of those. They are treated as equal here.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> By the time I get this closed in I'm not going to have any access under the back part of this deck which I shouldn't need. I have just barely crawl space under the main part of the deck where there is that electrical junction box should I ever need to do any modifications there. The rain gutter system should be maintenance free. I'm a little bit concerned and have been wondering if I should have some kind of a ground covering under all this be a plastic I think plastic might be the thing but plastic could also let water puddle in places if I'm not careful. Or should I use that landscape fabric?


There is a landscape fabric that is 12 ft wide, I think it is woven polyester it feels like fibreglass, it is made to go under gravel .
You might slope the dirt up to the house so water tends to run away before soaking into the dirt. 
Our down spout systems are buried and seldom have a problem. If you are not burying them you may want to stack it at the bends so if you ever have to snake it, it will stay in place. 
If you ever have a problem with the conduit, you would likely just figure a work around with new.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

More progress, the double joist that the raised shed joists wil rest on and the final ledger board for that space is still in place.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> More progress, the double joist that the raised shed joists wil rest on and the final ledger board for that space is still in place.


How far from that ledger up to the bottom of the shed door. It looks more than I expected?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

We will have to come up with a plan for stairs to the shed.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Maybe slightly lower than the original deck. The shed is a reach in rather than a walk in. There is not room to stand up on that she'd either. I'm not too concerned about it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Didn't really get anything accomplished today had too much other stuff come up which is a shame because there's another beautiful day here in New York which is unusual this time of year. I'm starting to look at this box that I've got to build that's going to be 3 ft out from the entrance that will step up to the entrance. Still not quite sure I'm going to build it. I understand it's going to be not quite up against the house which is fine basically a box with two 2x8 x 8s. looks like some 2x8x3 in the middle will have to attach somehow?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Maybe slightly lower than the original deck. The shed is a reach in rather than a walk in. There is not room to stand up on that she'd either. I'm not too concerned about it.


So a short ladder with a few steps for the times you need to get inside.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Didn't really get anything accomplished today had too much other stuff come up which is a shame because there's another beautiful day here in New York which is unusual this time of year. I'm starting to look at this box that I've got to build that's going to be 3 ft out from the entrance that will step up to the entrance. Still not quite sure I'm going to build it. I understand it's going to be not quite up against the house which is fine basically a box with two 2x8 x 8s. looks like some 2x8x3 in the middle will have to attach somehow?


You want to flash the rim first, I would cut the paper and slip the flashing behind it. 
You want the nose of the decking to be 36" or more from the siding.
Do if you want to have all full pieces of decking you may want to figure out where 13 pieces will get you. 
Then the nose can hang over 3/4 to 1" front and back and you can subtract the thickness of what ever you will dress the front with and then subtract the 3" for the 2 rims.
If you start the lay out from the other end the joists will not be lined up with the lower ones and you would be able to join them with those hangers on the inside.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> So a short ladder with a few steps for the times you need to get inside.


That's what I did before.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> You want to flash the rim first, I would cut the paper and slip the flashing behind it.
> You want the nose of the decking to be 36" or more from the siding.
> Do if you want to have all full pieces of decking you may want to figure out where 13 pieces will get you.
> Then the nose can hang over 3/4 to 1" front and back and you can subtract the thickness of what ever you will dress the front with and then subtract the 3" for the 2 rims.
> If you start the lay out from the other end the joists will not be lined up with the lower ones and you would be able to join them with those hangers on the inside.


I was thinking I may is hangers. Composite decking is on such short supply right now I'm going I can find what I need.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I was thinking I may is hangers. Composite decking is on such short supply right now I'm going I can find what I need.


Ouch.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

There is paper tucked under the threshold and some Z flashing. I'm going to have to cut a piece of trim to fit in that space. This conduit enters a house at a bad place I'm thinking I may screw a couple of separated boards onto the back of my front board to make up the difference to get around that.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It was a great relief today to find the materials that I need to get closer to finishing my deck. 84 Lumber which is very local to me had Trex select in saddle which is a good shade of brown for where this is going. They were also able to estimate the amount of connectors I need or fasteners rather and I think they're pretty accurate with it. I needed to have it delivered since these 16-ft boards are too long for my pickup truck. They should be delivered Thursday late afternoon.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> There is paper tucked under the threshold and some Z flashing. I'm going to have to cut a piece of trim to fit in that space. This conduit enters a house at a bad place I'm thinking I may screw a couple of separated boards onto the back of my front board to make up the difference to get around that.


Electrical has a removable lid It should be accessible
I would cut out the rim for it and add a 2x2 below the box. Or add blocks to the ledger below for support.








Or just go straight in thru the lower ledger and the concrete with the conduit.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Not sure I want to core through the concert wall. I wonder if I'd be better off rerouting through new conduit around to the side of the house away from the deck. Granted, it would be a lot of digging.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Not sure I want to core through the concert wall. I wonder if I'd be better off rerouting through new conduit around to the side of the house away from the deck. Granted, it would be a lot of digging.


I would just cut out the rim and add extra support below it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

By rim do you mean the backboard of that step up box that I'm making?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> By rim do you mean the backboard of that step up box that I'm making?


Yes, Or if there is enough room maybe just cut a slot for the pipe and drop it behind the box


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Debating how to plan this next step. I think these cross joists need to rest fully on this double beam. But I also will need a rim joist across the ends of those joists. So they are coming out to be I think 62 in even if I cut them so that they are even with both of those. I don't think I should cut them back to where they only rest on one beam but that would give me room for the rim joist. I'm also trying to figure out my framing with a piece of 2x4 for the border decking that has to go in front of that upper deck. That's why I have that 4x4 block in there currently.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Debating how to plan this next step. I think these cross joists need to rest fully on this double beam. But I also will need a rim joist across the ends of those joists. So they are coming out to be I think 62 in even if I cut them so that they are even with both of those. I don't think I should cut them back to where they only rest on one beam but that would give me room for the rim joist. I'm also trying to figure out my framing with a piece of 2x4 for the border decking that has to go in front of that upper deck. That's why I have that 4x4 block in there currently.


Put the rim for the upper deck on top of the first one and hang the joists with hangers from that. 
The double joist is laminated with 3 nails or 4 screws every 16 inches?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Then you have to decide how to deal with the boarder board.
Rip the boarder to fit or add more so it will jog around.
I have never done a boarder on the inside like this.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Then you have to decide how to deal with the boarder board.
> Rip the boarder to fit or add more so it will jog around.
> I have never done a boarder on the inside like this.
> View attachment 633470


Maybe it doesn't need an inside border there. I have to think about that. So then the rimjoice attaches to the first joist with mending plates?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

And yes I did laminate them together with structural screws which may be overkill that just happened this morning.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> And yes I did laminate them together with structural screws which may be overkill that just happened this morning.


That's not over kill, it is required.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Maybe it doesn't need an inside border there. I have to think about that. So then the rimjoice attaches to the first joist with mending plates?


Yes or just blocks on the inside.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Well I got this box set for the upper deck. With the two outside joists. They are away from the walls. But I couldn't figure out any other way to set hangers if I was too close to the walls. That space isn't quite square it might be a half inch off square but I kind of expected that given that it is new construction joined to old construction.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Well I got this box set for the upper deck. With the two outside joists. They are away from the walls. But I couldn't figure out any other way to set hangers if I was too close to the walls. That space isn't quite square it might be a half inch off square but I kind of expected that given that it is new construction joined to old construction.


That shouldn't be a problem, you could tuck a 2x4 in behind and screw thru the joist for a little more support?
You will want to box around the downspout? Are you going to extend the brown down below the deck.
With primer that joist tape will stick to concrete, I would run the tape up that back wall 1/2 to 3/4"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Wasn't planning on extending below the deck with the brown down spout but that would look better and be a smaller intrusion. I hadn't actually figured out how far up to go with the white yet.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So the upper deck by the shed is framed in finally. These things always take longer than they should. Turns out that front rim joist is a little warped on one end. So I'm going to have to plan that down to make it flush. But all the joist members are flushing level with each other. Nearing completion of the joist hangers and I just finally realized that I could squeeze those things in and make them closer to the correct shape and they would be a lot easier to hang. It's amazing how little things like that can throw you for a loop.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So the upper deck by the shed is framed in finally. These things always take longer than they should. Turns out that front rim joist is a little warped on one end. So I'm going to have to plan that down to make it flush. But all the joist members are flushing level with each other. Nearing completion of the joist hangers and I just finally realized that I could squeeze those things in and make them closer to the correct shape and they would be a lot easier to hang. It's amazing how little things like that can throw you for a loop.


Looks good, you can just add 2x4 blocks around the pipe to support the decking there.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Trying to plan this raised deck next. This is how it looks at 3 feet out from the house. There is a plan to cut the rear rim to access the junction box. I also trying yo figure out how to plan the railing where the higher deck extends out from the wing wall.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

For some reason I can not post pictures. 
I would stay at the height for the lower deck and screw it to the side of the joist and the end of the wing wall, 
At the other end of that 3 ft deck you may want to shorten it to the joist there so you could add a 2x4 to the side of that lower joist for the lower decking.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yeah I do plan on shortening those 2x8s to match that back That makes sense. But I'm trying to envision this how to plan the posts for the railings where the upper meets the lower and it falls short of the wing wall. I put a scrap piece of decking there same height as the new decking to get a better picture of it. Somehow I think I'm going to just need a short bit of railing there to meet that upper part and then transition on a rail post to the lower part. The plan at this point is to have 3 ft high railings with black aluminum spindles and pressure treated 2x4 for the rails so kind of a hybrid between prefab and hand-built. But just for that short transition I need to go 3 ft up from the upper deck and then 3 ft down from the lower deck. And I can see where I definitely don't want to have that upper step in any closer to the house. You definitely want to be able to take a second comfortable step away from the threshold before stepping down.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yeah I do plan on shortening those 2x8s to match that back That makes sense. But I'm trying to envision this how to plan the posts for the railings where the upper meets the lower and it falls short of the wing wall. I put a scrap piece of decking there same height as the new decking to get a better picture of it. Somehow I think I'm going to just need a short bit of railing there to meet that upper part and then transition on a rail post to the lower part. The plan at this point is to have 3 ft high railings with black aluminum spindles and pressure treated 2x4 for the rails so kind of a hybrid between prefab and hand-built. But just for that short transition I need to go 3 ft up from the upper deck and then 3 ft down from the lower deck. And I can see where I definitely don't want to have that upper step in any closer to the house. You definitely want to be able to take a second comfortable step away from the threshold before stepping down.


I think the top railing has to be 42 or 43 inches or? 
How about this with a 2x4 screwed to the wing wall.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I think the top railing has to be 42 or 43 inches or?
> How about this with a 2x4 screwed to the wing wall.
> View attachment 634315


Thanks, I'll have to check with local code enforcement about the railing height. The whole lower part of the deck is 32-in off the ground and I could almost get away with no railing I think but I still need a railing for the stairs and I think that would look kind of strange to have stair railings and not the rest of the railings. The railings on my back deck are 3 ft tall but again I will check with Nick my code enforcement guy.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Thanks, I'll have to check with local code enforcement about the railing height. The whole lower part of the deck is 32-in off the ground and I could almost get away with no railing I think but I still need a railing for the stairs and I think that would look kind of strange to have stair railings and not the rest of the railings. The railings on my back deck are 3 ft tall but again I will check with Nick my code enforcement guy.


The step is so short there you could likely forget the post and just stay with the lower railing right to the wing wall. 
One step doesn't need a rail so it is just the height for that little bit. You could ask the inspectors what they think.


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## mikecheq (Nov 19, 2020)

Wow! I went through all 15 pages. I am blow away at the progress. I don't think I could have done this on my own. I'm excited to see the end result.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

A little bit of progress on this fine Thanksgiving Day. Happy Thanksgiving to all by the way! I cut the notch in the joist for the access to the junction box. Now just working out a way to reinforce where that is notched. I cut it in between thinking in terms of maybe face nailing it and screwing it into the joist s just kind of sistering it. Not really sure how I'm going to resolve that. I really don't want to pull that back rim out any further away from the house where it is I kind of like it where it sits.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Kind of working out the logistics of the step stringers. My total rise to the finish deck will be 35 in. Deciding to go with a 10 and 1/2-in tread and a 7-in rise. I think that will give me two widths of Trex board with a little space in between and it will give me an adequate nose for the fascia that I'm planning. Still haven't completely committed to that. And have to watch a few more videos about step stringers and how to attach to the deck. I sort of like the idea of attaching to the inside frame that is behind the rim joist but it seems a bit more complicated so I'm thinking I will probably mount it to the outside of the joist. A step stringers are going to be costly my total stringer run looks to be 4 ft 2 in and 1/2 so I won't get quite two stringers out of an 8 ft board and these 2 by 12's run pretty high price wise. I see where they do have longer boards I think I'm probably if I can find 10 ft boards I know I can definitely find 12 footers but that's not going to help me reduce wasted materials either.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> A little bit of progress on this fine Thanksgiving Day. Happy Thanksgiving to all by the way! I cut the notch in the joist for the access to the junction box. Now just working out a way to reinforce where that is notched. I cut it in between thinking in terms of maybe face nailing it and screwing it into the joist s just kind of sistering it. Not really sure how I'm going to resolve that. I really don't want to pull that back rim out any further away from the house where it is I kind of like it where it sits.


Looks like you need a little more notch. 
Just screw a block below it to the lower rim.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Kind of working out the logistics of the step stringers. My total rise to the finish deck will be 35 in. Deciding to go with a 10 and 1/2-in tread and a 7-in rise. I think that will give me two widths of Trex board with a little space in between and it will give me an adequate nose for the fascia that I'm planning. Still haven't completely committed to that. And have to watch a few more videos about step stringers and how to attach to the deck. I sort of like the idea of attaching to the inside frame that is behind the rim joist but it seems a bit more complicated so I'm thinking I will probably mount it to the outside of the joist. A step stringers are going to be costly my total stringer run looks to be 4 ft 2 in and 1/2 so I won't get quite two stringers out of an 8 ft board and these 2 by 12's run pretty high price wise. I see where they do have longer boards I think I'm probably if I can find 10 ft boards I know I can definitely find 12 footers but that's not going to help me reduce wasted materials either.


The 35" is to the landing zone
How thick is the fascia that you will use?









I would do it like the one on the left with 2x10 and a 7/10 rise run.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> The 35" is to the landing zone
> How thick is the fascia that you will use?
> View attachment 634905
> 
> ...


Yes 35 inch to land to the level pad below the unlevel one. Haven't decided on whether to use matching trex fascia yet or not. It would be cheaper if I could get away with a generic. Wish my house was trimmed in white rather than brown. I like decks I've seen with white fascia but not sure how it works like being the only white on the house.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

2x10 for the stringers? I am planning 5 stringers for 4 feet wide staircase. Some sources say to use 2x12. Decks.com say to use 12 but aldo say minimum 5 inches of wood left. I've read that 3 1/2 is code minimum so don't know what to believe. The 2x12 might have me hitting the top concrete step that's crooked so 10 inch may work better.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> 2x10 for the stringers? I am planning 5 stringers for 4 feet wide staircase. Some sources say to use 2x12. Decks.com say to use 12 but aldo say minimum 5 inches of wood left. I've read that 3 1/2 is code minimum so don't know what to believe. The 2x12 might have me hitting the top concrete step that's crooked so 10 inch may work better.


We always do 2x10 and run a 2x4 down inside flush with the bottom. That makes it much stronger.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes 35 inch to land to the level pad below the unlevel one. Haven't decided on whether to use matching trex fascia yet or not. It would be cheaper if I could get away with a generic. Wish my house was trimmed in white rather than brown. I like decks I've seen with white fascia but not sure how it works like being the only white on the house.


When we do them with thin fascia we just cut 2x8 for the riser first and then the fascia You just have top adjust the top tread for that.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I'm working out the details of planning this decking and also the stairs. I figure I want to have full decking boards up to that first rise to the entrance. The reasoning being it will be harder to rip full-length boards to fit than 8-ft boards on the riser. I have 16-ft boards which means I can go 15-ft across in the longest part of that field and have to cut a foot off of each board. I figure 11 boards will give me more than enough overhang hopefully without being too much. I will have to measure that out better. Also not sure how far I want to cut this deck back. I know that I'm 15" of cantilever right now not sure if maybe that's a little more than I should be. But I also know that I don't want to end up too far back or my step stringers Well collide with that unlevel concrete step. Although if I need to I will break that up to make the steps work It's all going to be covered anyway. So I've got some thinking and planning to do.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm working out the details of planning this decking and also the stairs. I figure I want to have full decking boards up to that first rise to the entrance. The reasoning being it will be harder to rip full-length boards to fit than 8-ft boards on the riser. I have 16-ft boards which means I can go 15-ft across in the longest part of that field and have to cut a foot off of each board. I figure 11 boards will give me more than enough overhang hopefully without being too much. I will have to measure that out better. Also not sure how far I want to cut this deck back. I know that I'm 15" of cantilever right now not sure if maybe that's a little more than I should be. But I also know that I don't want to end up too far back or my step stringers Well collide with that unlevel concrete step. Although if I need to I will break that up to make the steps work It's all going to be covered anyway. So I've got some thinking and planning to do.


Over thinking it Jim
I would build the stairs where it is Install the fascia. Work my way with staggered joins in the decking and cut around obstacles 
How long will the pieces be at the door box including what you need to cover any fascia on each end? How many boards?
How long are the boards from the front door box to the shed? how many?
How long will the pieces be for the deck by the shed? How many board?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm working out the details of planning this decking and also the stairs. I figure I want to have full decking boards up to that first rise to the entrance. The reasoning being it will be harder to rip full-length boards to fit than 8-ft boards on the riser. I have 16-ft boards which means I can go 15-ft across in the longest part of that field and have to cut a foot off of each board. I figure 11 boards will give me more than enough overhang hopefully without being too much. I will have to measure that out better. Also not sure how far I want to cut this deck back. I know that I'm 15" of cantilever right now not sure if maybe that's a little more than I should be. But I also know that I don't want to end up too far back or my step stringers Well collide with that unlevel concrete step. Although if I need to I will break that up to make the steps work It's all going to be covered anyway. So I've got some thinking and planning to do.


With the decking I might do something like this, I was just guessing at measurements. 
Pre cut the pieces for the front door, the pieces for the area from the front door to the shed the stars and 1/2 of the pieces for the deck at the shed . All out of full length pieces. And use the cut off pieces to stagger across the deck. 

And now my picture does not paste.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I'll have to look at it and consider some of these questions as I'm looking at the project. So the fascia has got to go on first. Guess thst would take some of the guesswork out of the overhang. I was thinking about using full-length pieces to not have butt joints but might be more efficient to stagger pieces as you suggested. The lengths of the boards in front of the shed will be 6 ft minus the 5 1/2" per each side for the border frame that I'm planning. In front of the door those will be 8 ft minus again 5 1/2" each side for the border.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

When I bought these boards I bought enough 12 footers to cover the area in front of the shed thinking in terms of 6 ft each board but of course minus the border. Also doubling up 16 footers for the 8-ft section in front of the front door. And then 16-footers for the rest of the deck. So I may have planned a fair amount of waste into my initial plan say a foot off of each of the 16 footers but I don't have to see maybe I can lay them out and eliminate some of the waste and I can return some of the boards if I don't use them maybe I can save myself a little bit that way.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> When I bought these boards I bought enough 12 footers to cover the area in front of the shed thinking in terms of 6 ft each board but of course minus the border. Also doubling up 16 footers for the 8-ft section in front of the front door. And then 16-footers for the rest of the deck. So I may have planned a fair amount of waste into my initial plan say a foot off of each of the 16 footers but I don't have to see maybe I can lay them out and eliminate some of the waste and I can return some of the boards if I don't use them maybe I can save myself a little bit that way.


If it was a straight deck 17 ft or any length we just finish the first row and use the left over to start the next row. 
That staggers the joints and never draws your eye to them. You never wants 2 joints side by side or shorts like on ft. 
I still can't post a picture but i found this. 








How to Stagger Deck Boards


Are you planning to build a deck and trying to determine the layout for the deck boards? Dimensional deck lumber is commonly available in 8, 12, 14, and 16-foot lengths. If the deck is longer




plasticinehouse.com


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I'll have to look at it and consider some of these questions as I'm looking at the project. So the fascia has got to go on first. Guess thst would take some of the guesswork out of the overhang. I was thinking about using full-length pieces to not have butt joints but might be more efficient to stagger pieces as you suggested. The lengths of the boards in front of the shed will be 6 ft minus the 5 1/2" per each side for the border frame that I'm planning. In front of the door those will be 8 ft minus again 5 1/2" each side for the border.


Yes I would build the stairs first and put the fascia on the risers and the main deck. 
I think I would do the decking on the main deck and then add fascia to the smaller decks to hide the cuts in the decking boards.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Cut the ends of these joists didn't do a perfect job but I think I'm close enough.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Figuring on an inch and a half of overhang beyond the rim joist which will give me enough overhang for fascia as well, I have room for 11 full width boards before I start the riser which will start by the looks of things around 38 inches out from the house.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Figuring on an inch and a half of overhang beyond the rim joist which will give me enough overhang for fascia as well, I have room for 11 full width boards before I start the riser which will start by the looks of things around 38 inches out from the house.


Close is good, if some are short loosen the screws to make the rim straight and add a block to the side of the joist to screw tight to.
You will want to decide on the fascia before you cut the stairs.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Currently wondering if this would work as fascia board? Cheap it's paintable and only 3/8 of an inch thick.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Got the entry box started today. 37.5" with by 8 ft. length.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Got the entry box started today. 37.5" with by 8 ft. length.


That look good.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Currently wondering if this would work as fascia board? Cheap it's paintable and only 3/8 of an inch thick.


You would need something solid behind it on the stairs. Does 3/8 plywood have exterior glue? 
What we get is combed faced fascia. All that is, is regular SPF lumber with the face roughed up to look like rough cut and it comes pre primed on all sides with oi base primer. We would get 1 x12 for the deck and 1x8 for the steps. 
Some times the painters do one coat of house paint on the face before we install it. Then they do touch up later and call that 2 coats. Our house has it everywhere, window trim, corners, rake boards, 13 years and paint still looks good.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> You would need something solid behind it on the stairs. Does 3/8 plywood have exterior glue?
> What we get is combed faced fascia. All that is, is regular SPF lumber with the face roughed up to look like rough cut and it comes pre primed on all sides with oi base primer. We would get 1 x12 for the deck and 1x8 for the steps.
> Some times the painters do one coat of house paint on the face before we install it. Then they do touch up later and call that 2 coats. Our house has it everywhere, window trim, corners, rake boards, 13 years and paint still looks good.


I guess I failed to mention that this is James Hardie siding. The stairs will have that to buy toe kick board seems like that should be solid enough. I just thought this could mount directly to the two by framing to hide it instead of fascia board which is quite expensive.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I guess I failed to mention that this is James Hardie siding. The stairs will have that to buy toe kick board seems like that should be solid enough. I just thought this could mount directly to the two by framing to hide it instead of fascia board which is quite expensive.


Seldom see plywood as exterior trim so i really don't know. You might look at Hardie planks.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Seldom see plywood as exterior trim so i really don't know. You might look at Hardie planks.


Yes, these are Hardie planks that I'm looking to buy from Lowe's, not plywood.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes, these are Hardie planks that I'm looking to buy from Lowe's, not plywood.


Sorry about that, yes.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

In the process of fitting these blocking pieces. I suppose I should have done this before I secured the joists. But I didn't wondering if I can use 16 d 3 and 1/2-in nails in here that I have on hand or do I have to get something like structural screws which I suspect will need to be around 4 or 4 and 1/2 in. As usual I can't really get straight answers from Google. I actually have three and a half inch and five and a half inch structural screws but I think one is not going to be long enough and the other is going to be too long.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Also going to be installing blocking here to install a length of 2x4 to support my picture frame decking.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Are they called for there, we just do a 2x4 block near the bottom in the center of the joists when there is more than 7 ft between bearing points.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Also going to be installing blocking here to install a length of 2x4 to support my picture frame decking.


we support that 2x4 with a block every 24"


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Are they called for there, we just do a 2x4 block near the bottom in the center of the joists when there is more than 7 ft between bearing points.


Somewhere, I read or saw on a video that they are called for. I really don't know.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Somewhere, I read or saw on a video that they are called for. I really don't know.


One end is ties to the shed so not likely going to lean over. 
There is a bigger chance of them leaning mid span under over load.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> One end is ties to the shed so not likely going to lean over.
> There is a bigger chance of them leaning mid span under over load.


At the ten foot section I was planning mid span blocking. Debating about the 8 foot section as I am planning hurricane ties to the upper deck section. The blocks I have fitted in place have taken the twist out of some of the boards. I cut to the bottom widths where they are tied and hammered them up into place. I think I can just used 16 penny nails in these perhaps 3 per side?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> At the ten foot section I was planning mid span blocking. Debating about the 8 foot section as I am planning hurricane ties to the upper deck section. The blocks I have fitted in place have taken the twist out of some of the boards. I cut to the bottom widths where they are tied and hammered them up into place. I think I can just used 16 penny nails in these perhaps 3 per side?


Is 16 penny a 3" common HDG? We just use measurements and a common as a head.
I don't know what to think about the deck on top, it is the bottom of the joists you worry about flopping under load. The deck boards hold the top in place, but you measure from the beam to the house as they are nailed to the beam


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Is 16 penny a 3" common HDG? We just use measurements and a common as a head.
> I don't know what to think about the deck on top, it is the bottom of the joists you worry about flopping under load. The deck boards hold the top in place, but you measure from the beam to the house as they are nailed to the beam


This is what I have for nails that I want to nail the blocks with. Yes the bottoms of the joists were what I measured and they are what is attached to the beam. It was the tops that were warping out of shape and sliding these blocks up from the bottom with a rubber hammer was what straightened out the warp on the top. Guess I should plan on mid-blocking the shorter section Midway as well so they don't move under load.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Bought a pre-cut five-step stringer from Lowe's just to see where it would drop on my deck. Also posted a picture of the actual stringers that I planned to cut that I think will work. I don't really want to step out away from the deck with the top step being level I want to step up to the deck hoping I can do that. The pre-cut from Lowe's costs $22 so it'll be quite expensive to use those. I plan to return this one. The rise on it is six and a half which would be a more comfortable rise but really not going to work here. Tred is not deep enough it is 10 in and I've got 11 in of decking to cover the steps with both boards being 5 and 1/2 so I think that would give me way too much overhang.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> This is what I have for nails that I want to nail the blocks with. Yes the bottoms of the joists were what I measured and they are what is attached to the beam. It was the tops that were warping out of shape and sliding these blocks up from the bottom with a rubber hammer was what straightened out the warp on the top. Guess I should plan on mid-blocking the shorter section Midway as well so they don't move under load.


Most times you install the rim and blocks right away , you have given them time to dry a little, then they can do what ever they do.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> Most times you install the rim and blocks right away , you have given them time to dry a little, then they can do what ever they do.


Yeah I started out following the advice of letting the joists run wild till I could figure out my decking. Maybe not the best advice. Some of these boards for being number one kiln dried pressure treated were warped right out of the box. Still this end blocking seems to have straightened them out satisfactory. I knew I would want to do that before I did install the rim joist. Which I haven't quite done yet maybe by the end of today's work shift. I only get a few hours in the morning before I have to start my evening shift. And foolishly I volunteered to work tomorrow which looks like a good day that I'm going to lose most of.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Bought a pre-cut five-step stringer from Lowe's just to see where it would drop on my deck. Also posted a picture of the actual stringers that I planned to cut that I think will work. I don't really want to step out away from the deck with the top step being level I want to step up to the deck hoping I can do that. The pre-cut from Lowe's costs $22 so it'll be quite expensive to use those. I plan to return this one. The rise on it is six and a half which would be a more comfortable rise but really not going to work here. Tred is not deep enough it is 10 in and I've got 11 in of decking to cover the steps with both boards being 5 and 1/2 so I think that would give me way too much overhang.


We do every set of stairs with a 10" cut tread with 11" treads.
except for the times we have to adjust to hit the landing spot. 
I can't count the times people have asked me to install pre cuts from a store. I have never found one that fits and stays in code. 
We did some concrete stairs where the siding guys got there first so we had to to follow their lead on the angle.
They were 6/12 for a 11 ft rise. They were the most uncomfortable stairs to climb.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

https://www.mycarpentry.com/image-files/xflush-mounted-stringer.jpg.pagespeed.ic.Q4Rt-jxsEH.jpg Don't know if this link will post right but it's starting to look like I'm going to have to do something like this flush mount the top step and go with five steps so that I don't hit that crooked step. And more importantly land on the level step correctly.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> We do every set of stairs with a 10" cut tread with 11" treads.
> except for the times we have to adjust to hit the landing spot.
> I can't count the times people have asked me to install pre cuts from a store. I have never found one that fits and stays in code.
> We did some concrete stairs where the siding guys got there first so we had to to follow their lead on the angle.
> They were 6/12 for a 11 ft rise. They were the most uncomfortable stairs to climb.


So maybe the 10-in tread would work. Personally I would just rather have less of a rise if I could work it out somehow I have to do some more calculating on that. Although seven isn't bad.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yeah I started out following the advice of letting the joists run wild till I could figure out my decking. Maybe not the best advice. Some of these boards for being number one kiln dried pressure treated were warped right out of the box. Still this end blocking seems to have straightened them out satisfactory. I knew I would want to do that before I did install the rim joist. Which I haven't quite done yet maybe by the end of today's work shift. I only get a few hours in the morning before I have to start my evening shift. And foolishly I volunteered to work tomorrow which looks like a good day that I'm going to lose most of.


They were dry until they pumped 15 lbs of water into each one. When they are fresh they are easier to bend back to straight and work with.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> https://www.mycarpentry.com/image-files/xflush-mounted-stringer.jpg.pagespeed.ic.Q4Rt-jxsEH.jpg Don't know if this link will post right but it's starting to look like I'm going to have to do something like this flush mount the top step and go with five steps so that I don't hit that crooked step. And more importantly land on the level step correctly.


The hand rail gets tricky, you need a taller post or an extra post each side, unless you are going with aluminum made to fit.
I have seen where they do 1/2 tread on top, I guess that was to hit the landing. I have never had to build level off the deck like that.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Laid out the boards today to see where they will land versus my upper deck. came to a conclusion that in order to get full with boards I need to come out with that upper deck to 43 inches, which means I need to rebuild that box wider so that will come out 43 inches. This will give me 10 full with boards before the rise. I don't have full with boards on the upper deck but I will rip them possibly the first and last to fit or figure out some combination so they will all fit. I could shorten it the other way too and make 11 full boards but I don't think that will give me the minimum 3 ft away from the door that I'm looking to accomplish for comfort.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

This is what I think the step stringer plan that I'm going with. Two slightly different calculations. The second calculation I based on what is the actual width of the Trex boards based on the Trex website which is .82 inch.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> The hand rail gets tricky, you need a taller post or an extra post each side, unless you are going with aluminum made to fit.
> I have seen where they do 1/2 tread on top, I guess that was to hit the landing. I have never had to build level off the deck like that.


Having a hard time visualizing the taller post option. Still, it sounds like a better alternative to a second post for 11 inches of flush tread/


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Having a hard time visualizing the taller post option. Still, it sounds like a better alternative to a second post for 11 inches of flush tread/


These posts are all the same height. The middle one is just for demonstration.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Jim F said:


> So I built this out just to try to envision what 9 ft out will look like that board being 9 ft long. I'm wondering if I could get away with pushing it back to 8 ft. I'm also thinking in terms of even if I did I could not use standard 8 ft boards there anyway because I do need to trim the ends even. But I am just looking at other width options and trying to decide what would be optimal.


This came back to bite me! Looking though old posts, I had a thought of making this deck come 9 feet out from the house. That extra foot would have had me hitting the level step where I need to. My thought at the time was the cost and availability of 10' boards to make the 9' happen. Plus, I would have needed 12' boards to make the 11' section happen. Come to think of it, adding an extra step flush to the main level probably was the way to go. I'm just not fond of the look of it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> These posts are all the same height. The middle one is just for demonstration.
> View attachment 636528


Yes, maybe the way to go.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Deck project temporarily on hold.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Back to it after a long winter. What a harsh few months of winter we had! We tapped an all-time record with over a hundred inches of snow in this region this year. I've got four step stringers cut to the right height flush to the deck and with the tracks on top of both they will be flush to each other. Not a perfect cut by any means definitely some mistakes but I think those will buff out. these are not in their final resting place I haven't decided between a 3-ft wide step which is about what this would be or 4-ft and I will have to dig into the Earth on each side of that step if I do that though and pour a concrete patio pad and the one side is kind of close to the tree so if I did that I would probably offset to the other side I may just stick with this. But glad to be back to it.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

It is looking good but the landing at the bottom should be straight out from the bottom step 3 ft


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Just a thought. Stairs cut back in on an angle.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Or cut the top stair off and move the stringers in?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

123pugsy said:


> Or cut the top stair off and move the stringers in?


He is trying to avoid the tilted concrete step but that might not be avoidable .


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

The first option looks less complicated than the second option. I would have to build some kind of short angle decking to make that come straight out. But the second option has me cutting into the rim joist but both options seem viable. Going into it I knew that the step that I'm landing on was coming in at an angle. I was thinking it wasn't ideal but that it would work. I'll have to give more thought into that.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I will avoid the crooked pad at all costs. I will have to see how much wiggle room I have there possibly can cut those top stringers a little short to angle the staircase but more likely I would build a short step out deck from the other step to make it come straight. Or just live with it the way it lands and deal with the angle. It seems to have a comfortable enough step anyway. It may look a little odd but I think it will be functional just the way it hits now.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

A little side project today that kept me from the main project which always is just terrible. But this is a railing that was not put on right it is not holding up to the sands of Time. I had to reinforce with proper corner posts because it was ready to fall off of there. Right now looks like crap but at least nobody falls off and dies.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> A little side project today that kept me from the main project which always is just terrible. But this is a railing that was not put on right it is not holding up to the sands of Time. I had to reinforce with proper corner posts because it was ready to fall off of there. Right now looks like crap but at least nobody falls off and dies.


Keep an eye on the joists for rot, not a good plan to have a lot of faith in that deck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> I will avoid the crooked pad at all costs. I will have to see how much wiggle room I have there possibly can cut those top stringers a little short to angle the staircase but more likely I would build a short step out deck from the other step to make it come straight. Or just live with it the way it lands and deal with the angle. It seems to have a comfortable enough step anyway. It may look a little odd but I think it will be functional just the way it hits now.


Best plan would be o rent a jack hammer and start over with the landing.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Couple of pictures of the step stringers. Working on trying to get them all even. They didn't come out exactly even. As they sit the bottom three steps are sitting level the top tread that meets the deck is unlevel higher on the front than the back. Can probably get away with shaving those down a little bit. Trying to figure out how best to proceed. I haven't ruled out the idea of jackhammering the top step and pouring a new pad but I'm not in love with the idea as it's going to set me back time and cost wise.


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## Labradors (Feb 25, 2016)

As was previously mentioned, I think you need to eliminate that top step. 


Sammy

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Labradors said:


> As was previously mentioned, I think you need to eliminate that top step.
> 
> 
> Sammy
> ...


I own a rotary hammer drill. If I bought the right bit could that jackhammer concrete? Still rented jackhammer would be quicker and easier. Just pondering my options. Also I've never poured a concrete pad. I will have to look into that a little bit.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Just ordered chisels for my rotary hammer drill.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

A few progress pics. I only have to chip away at the edge of that slab. The steps will still land on the lower slab and attach properly to the deck without that top step that's flush.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Brutal 90° weather. Took a video of my rotary hammer drill in action. Would have been easier with a rented jackhammer. But also would have had to pay the rental rate for the jackhammer. Biggest problem I had with this thing is the chisel doesn't lock in and I could not figure out anyway with this harbor freight rotary hammer drill to lock the chisel in place. It kept wanting to turn.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Brutal 90° weather. Took a video of my rotary hammer drill in action. Would have been easier with a rented jackhammer. But also would have had to pay the rental rate for the jackhammer. Biggest problem I had with this thing is the chisel doesn't lock in and I could not figure out anyway with this harbor freight rotary hammer drill to lock the chisel in place. It kept wanting to turn.


You did change it from drill to hammer only.
It might be eisier to drill some 1/2" holes first and the chisel.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> You did change it from drill to hammer only.
> It might be eisier to drill some 1/2" holes first and the chisel.


Yes and the video didn't post because it was MP4 format and I'm not tech savvy enough to convert it. I don't understand why the chisel doesn't lock in place, it seems like it should. But it was switched over to hammer only, both switches on the tool. I actually did consider drilling holes first. I only chiseled out where the stringers are going to lay. Being that it was so on level it needed a lot more on the one side than the other.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes and the video didn't post because it was MP4 format and I'm not tech savvy enough to convert it. I don't understand why the chisel doesn't lock in place, it seems like it should. But it was switched over to hammer only, both switches on the tool. I actually did consider drilling holes first. I only chiseled out where the stringers are going to lay. Being that it was so on level it needed a lot more on the one side than the other.


when you load the chisel are you just pushing it in or pulling the collar back at the same time?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> when you load the chisel are you just pushing it in or pulling the collar back at the same time?


Pulling the collar back.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Rent a real machine and live life a wee bit better. Sometimes it's really worth it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

123pugsy said:


> Rent a real machine and live life a wee bit better. Sometimes it's really worth it.


I retrospect, I wished I had but it's done now.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Getting ready to finall pit down the Trex. I have the router bit for the hidden fasteners. Do I still need starter clips which I don't have yet, or can I just cut grooves with the router bit?


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Some progress pics. Just dry fitted right now. Trying to decide if the fake grain patterns should all go the same way, or alternate like in the pic.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Some progress pics. Just dry fitted right now. Trying to decide if the fake grain patterns should all go the same way, or alternate like in the pic.


i never noticed it had a direction, we must have put them as they came from the pile.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Some more progress today. The sections aren't exactly square so it's a challenge to get the short section to merge with the rest of the long section which is just begun. Really just dry fitted at this point. I have one board that's going to be shaved down to four and three quarters of an inch from five and a half inches. And one more board toward the front that is ripped down a 1/2 in to 5 in. I still have to cut a board for that section near the drain pipe. Which I haven't done yet. I just have a couple of scrap pieces which I ripped to figure out the width that I need in there.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Some more progress today. The sections aren't exactly square so it's a challenge to get the short section to merge with the rest of the long section which is just begun. Really just dry fitted at this point. I have one board that's going to be shaved down to four and three quarters of an inch from five and a half inches. And one more board toward the front that is ripped down a 1/2 in to 5 in. I still have to cut a board for that section near the drain pipe. Which I haven't done yet. I just have a couple of scrap pieces which I ripped to figure out the width that I need in there.


We always start at the outside and cut to fit the wall last.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> We always start at the outside and cut to fit the wall last.


That explains why the starter clips I ordered didn't really work. I've been using the slot cutter and the conventional in between hidden fasteners and the pro plugs for the end pieces. Also have been dry fitting these in and ripping them accordingly. I try not to rip too much width out of one either I prefer to average it out over two or three pieces if possible.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> That explains why the starter clips I ordered didn't really work. I've been using the slot cutter and the conventional in between hidden fasteners and the pro plugs for the end pieces. Also have been dry fitting these in and ripping them accordingly. I try not to rip too much width out of one either I prefer to average it out over two or three pieces if possible.


I have never done it like that so I really can't suggest anything.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> I have never done it like that so I really can't suggest anything.


The thing is, it's been so long between watching videos and actually starting the board laying that I probably forgot a lot of it. I'm finding that on spite of my best efforts at setting the joists level, I've still got irregularities where I must plane some down and shim others up and that's slowing my progress. But I am closing in on it.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Kind of where I'm at. I suspended laying the decking long enough to secure the front part. I had the step stringers set where I want them to be. I had a thought in mind about doing picture framing steps but I'm not sure that I'm going to. I will probably just go with conventional longboards to the Trex decking for the steps.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Kind of where I'm at. I suspended laying the decking long enough to secure the front part. I had the step stringers set where I want them to be. I had a thought in mind about doing picture framing steps but I'm not sure that I'm going to. I will probably just go with conventional longboards to the Trex decking for the steps.


They look good, I have not seen anyone try to picture frame them.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Some more progress pics. Treads aren't attached yet. Decking is done though.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

It is looking great.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So I'm trying to plan out these step treads. My son says I'm overthinking it. My answer to that is you can't overthink steps because it's a safety issue. After putting them together and trying them with the tread flush against the risers the top tread seemed a little bit too close to the deck surface. Putting the toe kick in front of my treads extends everything out and inch and a half. But that leaves me with a conundrum on the top tread where I may need an inch and a half narrow strip of tread which I kind of have measured out with a piece of scrap. Is that tread being an inch and a half wider on the top going to trip people up? Am I just better off having them all the same uniform to tread width?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm trying to plan out these step treads. My son says I'm overthinking it. My answer to that is you can't overthink steps because it's a safety issue. After putting them together and trying them with the tread flush against the risers the top tread seemed a little bit too close to the deck surface. Putting the toe kick in front of my treads extends everything out and inch and a half. But that leaves me with a conundrum on the top tread where I may need an inch and a half narrow strip of tread which I kind of have measured out with a piece of scrap. Is that tread being an inch and a half wider on the top going to trip people up? Am I just better off having them all the same uniform to tread width?


You added 1 1/2" you should have shortened the top tread moving it close to the deck.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> So I'm trying to plan out these step treads. My son says I'm overthinking it. My answer to that is you can't overthink steps because it's a safety issue. After putting them together and trying them with the tread flush against the risers the top tread seemed a little bit too close to the deck surface. Putting the toe kick in front of my treads extends everything out and inch and a half. But that leaves me with a conundrum on the top tread where I may need an inch and a half narrow strip of tread which I kind of have measured out with a piece of scrap. Is that tread being an inch and a half wider on the top going to trip people up? Am I just better off having them all the same uniform to tread width?


Jim, Will you be putting a facsia or something on the face of the deck. remove the 2x on the face of the stairs and do the same as the face of the deck.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Oh yeah, that's where it should have been made up. Well, I'm not committed to those front boards, thay ate just standing there. I'll just cut them so they are flush with the risers like I was originally planning. I'm not remounting my stringers. Just amazing


Nealtw said:


> Jim, Will you be putting a facsia or something on the face of the deck. remove the 2x on the face of the stairs and do the same as the face of the deck.


I will be using this, painted to match the house siding. I got a few planks, at $8-9 each, it's much cheaper than PVC or composite.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Oh yeah, that's where it should have been made up. Well, I'm not committed to those front boards, thay ate just standing there. I'll just cut them so they are flush with the risers like I was originally planning. I'm not remounting my stringers. Just amazing
> 
> I will be using this, painted to match the house siding. I got a few planks, at $8-9 each, it's much cheaper than PVC or composite.


Yes blocking between the stringers would be better and with those boards on the risers and the deck face you will be back to equal treads.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Most recent progress pics I have. Started installing the Trex treads using the pro plugs. Hit and miss with those screws in my stringers. Maybe to do with the angle of the wood grain. Some of yhrm.dont want to drive all the way on and now I have to back them out and try a different screw. Then drill out the pilot holes for the plugs.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Moving forward one thing I've discovered is my cordless drills just don't have the power so I got my plug in 7 amp drill that seems to be doing a better job. But I still don't know what to do about these ones that drove in most of the way and stopped turning. Going to have to come up with a different solution.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

There are countersink drill bits with a tapered drill bit. Great for screws. 
Muye 4PCS 1/4" Hex Shank High Speed Steel Tapered Countersunk Drill Bits Woodworking Hole Countersunk Drill Cone Opener Wood Taper Sink Hole Drilling #6#10#13#16 : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

What Neal said. 
If they are stopping with your cordless, they need a pilot hole.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for the responses. I actually did do pilot holes on these. These screws don't require a countersink, they make their own as they drive in. I think my cordless battery may be going since it seemed to be getting the job done on the test of the deck. I'm still going to need to countersink some of the failed screw holes. Best info I can get the pro plugs need a number 8.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So here's where I'm at with my railing system. My wife likes the looks of these round aluminum balusters. Lowe's has them they're 17.97 for 10. I bought two kits today to get started. I can see already they're going to be very unstable until I get the rails toenailed into place. As they sit on top of the treads they are at 34 and 1/2 in. I know the code is between 34 and 38 in. I was kind of hoping to have a little bit more height on the post to put some solar lighted post caps on. But I'm afraid I left them too short on top. From the deck surface they are at 40 in. Two options are to rip the 2x4s down by maybe an inch each or cut the ballasters down by 2 in which I really think is a bad plan and don't think I'm going to do it. I just don't know. I do need to come up with some kind of handrail on top of those cross rails. And I haven't quite decided what I'm going to do there yet. I am open to suggestions, as always.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

I wonder how the aluminum will stand up to the treatment in the lumber. 
Maybe just a saw cut into the end of the 2x4 to make room for the light,


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

Nealtw said:


> I wonder how the aluminum will stand up to the treatment in the lumber.


those look like mine. they have plastic end caps that screw into the wood, the aluminum doesn't touch the wood. mine have been on for over 6 years, no issues.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Fix'n it said:


> those look like mine. they have plastic end caps that screw into the wood, the aluminum doesn't touch the wood. mine have been on for over 6 years, no issues.


Thank you.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yes they have plastic caps. How high of the steps should the bottom rail be?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Yes they have plastic caps. How high of the steps should the bottom rail be?


Someone here will know, I do not know if there is a code for that.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Around here, a 6" diameter sphere is not allowed to pass thru the space between stairs and bottom of the railing.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Stair railings set.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Looks good.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Got all the fascia boards cut and painted. So far only have the stairs done. I'm using Hardie siding planks for this.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Looking really nice Jim.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

So all the fascia board sections that I cut and painted are in place now. Came out pretty good. I use Hardie siding for this. I found that I was able to snap cut the lengths. And rip the width of some of these on my table saw.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Just now catching up on update pics. This first set is the wall rebuild part of it. Just took the final picture today. There is an older piece in there with newer pieces. Found the exact match of the siding but the old pieces faded with age.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

And some I took today of my nearly complete deck railing. I am putting left over Trex decking on top as drink rails as they call them. This will also have the added benefit of protecting the rail beneath them. There is window flashing between the tracks and that 2x4 top piece for weather protection.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

That looks fantastic Jim. Nice job.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Looking just fine there. Good job of it.


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## razzle (Oct 1, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> That looks fantastic Jim. Nice job.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm very late to this "discussion." But, looking at the before and after pictures, all I can say is WELL DONE! Wowza - it looks fantastic!


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nothing big to report, just the addition of there two Lowes PT hand rails. I couldn't find composite hand rails or I would have preferred to use those. I found myself back and forth to the miter saw jist shaving off a little bit at a time until they fit. Adding to the frustration is the fact that the 4x4s like to twist as they dry.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim F said:


> Nothing big to report, just the addition of there two Lowes PT hand rails. I couldn't find composite hand rails or I would have preferred to use those. I found myself back and forth to the miter saw jist shaving off a little bit at a time until they fit. Adding to the frustration is the fact that the 4x4s like to twist as they dry.


When we have done that we had to add, what (they) consider a hand rail


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> When we have done that we had to add, what (they) consider a hand rail
> View attachment 676200


Oh look at that! Well I'm going to try to make do with what I have because I really don't want to narrow the width of that by adding an official inside handrail. Don't know if it's cold around here or not may have to add it someday if we go to sell the place. If I was going to do that I might have just continued the drink rails the top.


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