# Short patio wall - Do I really need footing?



## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Hello, 

I want to build a short wall (2 or 3 ft high) in a few segments around a new patio at my home. The idea is cinder blocks with stone veneer and wall cap on top.

I have 150 cinder blocks stacked in the driveway for this project. I kind of "winged" the plan while at the supply yard but now I'm trying to finalize the plan.

I've dug 4 feet down, wide enough for the blocks. I was thinking that I could simply pour 8 inches or so of gravel in, tamp it down and sit the blocks on that. I'd then mortar my way up. I went that far to get past the frost line.

Is that good enough, or do I really have to build some kind of footing? I've had little luck, surprisingly, finding much information on this. My theory was that a really short wall should be just fine without a footing. Also, I assume for something of this size I don't need any rebar, or to fill the blocks with concrete.

Another (probably stupid because of all the custom cuts required) idea was to orient SOME of the first few courses perpendicular to the wall in order to build mini footings at regular intervals, as seen in the attached diagram.









>>Link to photo<<

Thank you for any advice.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

One more thought occurred to me. I suppose I could have someone fill in my trench with concrete or cement to ground level, forming the foundation and then build up from there with blocks. I'd have a ton of left over blocks, but boy, would that save me a lot of time and effort, over building a 4 foot tall footing out of block.


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## BrowneBearLLC (Apr 8, 2015)

Let’s give this a little thought, a footing is a means to take a load and spread it across a larger area or foot print so that the wall above can handle more weight.As I see it you have a non-load bearing wall below the frost line … I think you would be fine.In fact it will be kind of like a gloried rat wall.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. The latest idea about pouring does, however, seem like it would save me a substantial amount of work - at a highest cost.


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

I read where the frost line is 36", so you could just fill in with concrete to that point, then start with your block.


Dry stack the blocks, use surface bonding cement, and then cover with your stone facing and cap.


Sound like a plan?


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Having a wall with a wider base is less likely to topple than one without. 
I see you are in Boston and I would think with freeze/thaw cycles you have there that a footer would be more important.
Someone will be along to better inform the discussion.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

I was dreading mortaring blocks at the bottom of that narrow trench, but now I'm excited about the idea of having the entire trench filled with concrete or mortar. There is a slight slope to the driveway, so I believe the best approach would be to build a small form above ground to allow the cement to self-level.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Always go at least 6" deeper than what the frost line is.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

I'm not a mason so I'm guessing, but your wall is going to be 6-7' tall, not 2-3. That is getting near to a basement wall - a foundation - that always has a footing. It has to support its own weight as well. Might as well fill the trench with gravel just 16" below the ground level for good drainage, pour 16x16 (?) reinforced beam and put a short wall on that. Use filter fabric around the gravel.


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## tbeaulieu (Apr 6, 2009)

What I can do is widen the bottom of the trench a bit to accommodate more concrete. I'm at around 4 yards without that, so it shouldn't add that much cost.

I will be posting another question about a slab if I can't find the answer by searching. If I were to pour a slab integrated with this trench I suspect a "footing" wouldn't add much value.

Thank you.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I would pour a footing (8" thick and at least 4" wider than the block wall on each side) and start laying block from there if you already have them. Practice in the trench (where it won't be seen) and get better when you get out of the ground. If the wall is retaining soil, you'll likely want to add some grouted pilasters inside the wall with rebar.......


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