# Arc Fault Break Tripping when any light switch turned on



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Seems to me that when the light is switched on there's a "leak" of current to something somewhere within that circuit. Could be an arc somewhere in the wiring, could be a bad switch, could be a low quality switch. 

Might be a wild goose chase but it might be worth swapping the switch(es) whose use is causing the AFCI to trip with new ones. That would at least rule them out.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

elab1 said:


> ……… when it tripped I turned off all the switches, unplugged *everything* and still the breaker would immediately trip. ….


 Congratulations on including some history. It sounds like you have started with all the right steps.

When you say *everything* did you mean just the AFCI breaker? If so there may be an overlooked AFCI protected receptacle that is outside the Bedroom.

Have there been ANY changes in plugged in devices, or lamp bulbs, or any changes at all in your home wiring?

Here is the Square D AFCI Data Sheet. I don’t know your brand, but this may
Spark an idea:
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ci...QO-QOB Circuit Breakers/QO-AFI/0760DB0204.pdf

You will get more suggestions as you continue to respond, but please let us know the outcome because you WILL Find the solution that will help a lot of folks on this forum. Including Me.
.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Instead of replacing the switches right away, bypass them with a jumper (piece of wire and alligator clips) across the two screws (turn the power off first, of course). Once the switches are bypassed, turn the power back on. The breaker shouldn't trip if it's a bad switch. If it does trip, you have an arc fault somewhere. (Duh, but at least you'll know it isn't the switches. )


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Bigplanz said:


> Instead of replacing the switches right away, bypass them with a jumper (piece of wire and alligator clips) across the two screws (turn the power off first, of course). Once the switches are bypassed, turn the power back on. The breaker shouldn't trip if it's a bad switch. If it does trip, you have an arc fault somewhere. (Duh, but at least you'll know it isn't the switches. )


Good.
I was going to say tease the switches on or off and listen with an AM radio tuned between stations for a drawn-out arc (if you can somehow bypass the AFCI).


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

*.......any light switch turned on*




elab1 said:


> ......
> If I turn on any of the light switches (bedroom closet, hall, other closet) the breaker immediately trips.


He has four switches

Chances are He doesn't suddenly have four bad switches

elab, We can't help until we get more info from you. 
.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> Seems to me that when the light is switched on there's a "leak" of current to something somewhere within that circuit. Could be an arc somewhere in the wiring, could be a bad switch, could be a low quality switch.
> 
> Might be a wild goose chase but it might be worth swapping the switch(es) whose use is causing the AFCI to trip with new ones. That would at least rule them out.


Hi.
I'm an old hat when it comes to residual earth leakage circuit breakers, having BUILT heavy Industrial "switchboards" & motor control centres, distribution mains etc., as a "FULLY REGISTERED Industrial Electrician - since 1985... so.
the quick answer is VERY VERY simple.
On the circuit in question..."SOMEWHERE" there is a direct fault "short_circuit_ to earth - between NOT a phase LIVE - but ALL connected Neutrals (A common problem - MOST often overlooked even by fully registered sparkies - unfimiliar with these devices)

Basically, I would strongly suspect rodent damage - somewhere inside Ur attic, or even a wall cavity..
AS this can be a very "difficult fault to pinpint & trace.. I would strongly suggest - wherever YOU reside- to go & thumb through your local service directory- & GRAB an electrical contractor - whom will HAVE the specialist tools, testing equipment & replacement cables.
Cheers.

Oh & P.s. any "out_of_balance" between current passing IN via a live line - MUST come OUT through the same circuit breakers neutral - or it WILL always "trip".
(which is exactly as this is doing.
SO - IF you are a home handyman - as I suspect... DO NOT stuff around with your life... as any illegal repair work COULD BE LETHAL.
OK?


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Oh & ps... YOU should NEVER have general power outlets... connected into a "lower" fuse rated LIGHTING CIRCUIT.
For safety's sake & for general "fue rating purposes - these two circuits ARE not normally compatible. & split your house into several "lighting areas (as you obviously have - as YOU do not want "all" lights = out in a minor fault.

The gen purpose WALL outlets... should NEVER be part of general lighting... but as FEW per main cuircuit as possible.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

For those of YOU - in the United States (as I now suspect this site "is" based") ... I am from way down "under"- in New Zealand - so do not ask for anything other than safety & fault finding advise.
As a quick flash across MAPS.GOOGLE [ http://tiny.cc/QUIX_View ] will show - via the "streetview" (link" I put here - as few in the USA? would even "know" the country I'm IN-?- let alone my rural area...

Cheers 
Be safe 
Do not LIVEN the circuit & DIE;
But "deaden" the circuit & LIVE


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

? I also notice that there is NO blog date posted here - so I will put todays date here - for my reference...

(NZ) 
GMT+12
Sunday 12th July - 2009, 9:26 pm


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

'p.ppppss? or whatever
;-)
as ONLY the phase of the lights is switched- ANY ligth sw - will activate power to the neutrel - then via the fault - HALF the current will go "back" via the EARTH - & ONLY half back through the Neutral- thus an IMMEDIATE TRIP.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Referenced via:-
http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/
&
*2007 WiringRules Standard* 
AS/NZS 3000:2007, Electrical Installations Standard - OUT NOW! 
www.SaiGlobal.com/wiringrules


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

L84D, Welcome to the Forum


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> L84D, Welcome to the Forum


Thankyou...
but hopefully the original thread starter (whom seems to have vanished) has ACTUALLY taken some notice, & NOT fried himself inside his switchboard 

(Me? I've been there "too" & ended UP with a very frazzled head, electrocution'ally THROWN_PHYSICALLY across a "freezing_works" floor one afternoon in ? 1983?)


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> L84D, Welcome to the Forum


PS - its all in the "word" abriviation (LATE FOR DINNER)
I'ts not L84D? 
As that simply means ? nothing


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> L84D, Welcome to the Forum


Oh & just the other day - I spotted that the OLD_FIRM (I left the firm in 1989), now has a rather "major" website...
LINK REMOVEDhttp://www.clivewilson.co.nz

Thus- if anyone "wishes" to check with them- yes I WAS- the TOP electrical student (as an adult apprentice of only 4yrs), & was thus sent to the National Fieldays at Mystery Creek, in Hamilton - in 1986, to represent the whole of Southland.

So - yes... I do know a wee thing or two - about elecricity.
;-)
Glad to be of assistance.
& Cheers.


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## PaliBob (Jun 11, 2008)

L84DnR said:


> PS - its all in the "word" abbreviation *(LATE FOR DINNER)*


 *L8FDnR*, Thanks, I should have seen that when you posted your License Plate Avatar.

You're right it looks like the OP has vanished. My sweet talking did not convince him to do the right thing by responding to the forum when he found the solution. Even if he made a dumb ass mistake like miswired the Neutral when he replaced the AFCI, he should have fessed up.
.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

PaliBob.,

Most AFCI will trip if you have netrual conductor nicked or pintched that useally will trip unloaded circuit.

As I am pretty sure you have pretty good rescoures and yes SqD did have issue with early model of AFCI breakers IIRC the early one were green test button while the latter is bleu button verison.

( side note state of Wisconsin do not use the AFCI until 2010 )
(French electrical system used the RCD for majorty of circuits btw RCD simauir to GFCI /AFCI )

L84DnR., 

Welcome to the DIY chatroom fourm and I do have a freind he live in NZ area as well.

Merci,Marc


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

L84Dnr, please keep your posts on topic related to the original poster's thread. If you wish to introduce yourself or give your credentials you can do so in the introductions subforum.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> ...SqD did have issue with early model of AFCI breakers IIRC the early one were green test button while the latter is bleu button verison.


Marc, I think you have that reversed. I believe the earlier version had the blue test button and the newer version has the green test button.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

theatretch85 said:


> Marc, I think you have that reversed. I believe the earlier version had the blue test button and the newer version has the green test button.


 
Merde!.. 

Thanks for correcting me I got two items switched around in my mind :whistling2: { I am used the European verison of SqD products and they are RCD and they are backward on me sorry about that }

I know for a fact the GFCI breakers { SqD } have yellow test button so they were never change at all.


Merci,Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

And the new afci's (2005 and newer combination type) from square d are equipped with white test buttons.....:thumbsup: I'm glad we have that settled  

The recalled ones had blue test buttons.....


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> And the new afci's (2005 and newer combination type) from square d are equipped with white test buttons.....:thumbsup: I'm glad we have that settled
> 
> The recalled ones had blue test buttons.....


 
That is good to know with new AFCI's I will remember it.

Yeah that correct the bleu verison was recalled in USA but in France it was Green RCD they have issue with it for while but now clear up they changed to red button verison.

Merci,Marc


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## n0c7 (May 15, 2008)

I remember learning that light switches with AFCI breakers was a bad idea because switches can create false arcs when they're flipped on causing the breaker to trip similar to when a lamp light bulb burns out on an AFCI and trips the breaker.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

n0c7 said:


> I remember learning that light switches with AFCI breakers was a bad idea because switches can create false arcs when they're flipped on causing the breaker to trip similar to when a lamp light bulb burns out on an AFCI and trips the breaker.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


That's the whole "signature analysis" thing with AFCIs; distinguishing good arcs from bad arcs.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

WOW ?. 
Just as well something kept troubling me
Something within this... "problem"

I'v just re-read some (Un) advice?
above & WOW.?

(I say this to BOTH Bigplanz & Yoyizit)

WOW?
How do SOME PEOPLE continue "to_live"?

Bigplanz. 
DO NOT EVER "simply" 
TOSS ?
an aligator clip_wire onto- or JUMP_BYPASS ?

ANY PROTECTIVE ELECTRICAL DEVICE.

To do so- or to "instruct" another - could result in YOUR DEATH (or a charge of manslaughter if someone else DIES as a direct result of such sheer STUPIDITY)

Whether or NOT...?
That RCD is defective- will have NO EFFECT- if there is ANY OTHER FAULT
Which caused that unit to "fail" in the first instant.

Doing such a completely idiotic thing... simply means one thing & one thing ONLY.

YOU have completely removed ANY SAFETY FEATURE- between U (or someone else) AND DEATH.
HOW?

By removing the OVERLOAD, "SHORT_CIRCUIT" FUNCTION... that those devices ALSO "protect_against"... INSTANTLY makes the ENTIRE CIRCUIT liable to?

AND YES- wait for this "revelation"

WITHOUT satisfactory overload protection ?
THE subcircuits beyond that device WILL BE...

THEN "subjected" to tens of thousands of AMPS...
During an Instantainious "HIGH_FAULT_CURRENT" situation.

Oh & please do "not" assume - ?
that an electrical "fault" is going to wait ten minutes - (yeah ryt)

>>>???>>> 
whilst U do a "check" in that fashion?

ANY MAJOR FAULT, which instantly trips a circuit protection device... 
WILL FRY (not only) YOU,
BUT... YOUR HOUSE WIRING AND YOUR HOUSE. 
Before YOU can remove that "JUMPER" wire.

& Yoyizit...
DELEBERATLY TEASING "any" switch to "CREATE" an arc- ?

Does in itself...
NOT TEST FOR A FAULY SWITCH?

BUT - IT DOES CREATE ONE.

PLUS... You will "also" HEAT the unit unnescessarily
CAUSING ANOTHER POSSIBLE RISK- 
a "delayed" action - "Wall fire".

Same result- A burnt down house.

Oh yes... a RADIO will "hear" THAT ARC? BUT it is a DELIBERATE ARC... not a "fault" ARC.

Can U tell the difference?

THE RADIO CAN NOT.

Please, please- all of U so_called- do_gooder "COWBOYS"
Go & play with Ur animals... 

NOT ELECTRICITY.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

*Reasonable vs. unreasonable fear*

Causes of death

1000/day from smoking
250/day from hospitals
160/day from guns
110/day die on the highways
14/day from food poisoning
4/day from electrocutions

170/yr from CO poisoning
55/yr from lightning

1 injury in 50 yrs from a meterorite

Here's some homework for ya', Mr. R
http://www.probability.ca/sbl/

As to house fires, dividing your fire insurance premium by the replacement value of your house will approximate the likelihood of a house fire *for any reason*, per year.

It should be impossible to tease a good switch; there is a built-in snap action, the effect being the same as what hysteresis gives you.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> L84Dnr, please keep your posts on topic related to the original poster's thread. If you wish to introduce yourself or give your credentials you can do so in the introductions subforum.


?
*thekctermite* 
Building codes guy, Mod

?

I'm sorry- apart from THIS one- in reply to UR off topic? 

WHICH ONE IS OFF (in mine)?
ALL relate to the problem...

SURE ?
We here in NZ - know you AMERICANS "often" call items, such as these something (utterly) stupid?

?
Arc Fault Breaker (indeed)

THESE are NOTHING BUT:- 
a "residual current device, formally known as an EARTH LEAKAGE BREAKER (also) incorporating a "set" overload rating...ie:- 20AMPS. 3kva (fault rating =) or say 63a 6kva - or the ones I USED TO INSTALL- upwards of 2,000 amp 50kva rating... so (please) do not tell me- I am "off' topic.

AS I WAS trying to say - (AS AN INDUSTRIAL ELECTRICIAN) - I know these devices, how they function, why they "function" ( & OR FAIL ), & how they are made? & I know this backwards.

PLUS... some OFF topics already exist?

As like JUMPER WIRING a "protective" device... does NOTHING to find a fault & actually CREATES extreme DEATH & FIRE RISK.

Plus teasing sw's of ANY sort...
Actually finds NO FAULT- BUT it "creates" FUTURE faults, burns sw contacts, & creates latent "ARC_sparks", (which can inside your walls & other cavities.. smolder for several HOURS & OR DAYS, un-noticed, ???
& LATER BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN.

SO.
Is that NOT relevant... when telling (someone) the correct method to "repair" 

(AND WHY NOT TO DO IT WRONG).

Electricity is NOT a toy.
Please no-one- DO NOT PLAY WITH UR LIFE, & anyone elses.
Safety_protection Residual earth leakage current devices (incorporating an OVERLOAD device), 

AND ANY OTHER SW-BD related devices are there to "protect" YOU.

NOTHING (else) protects U from the tens of thousands OF instantainious HIGH_FAULT currents, 
that WILL occur...
If U try to "jumper" (bypass), or "tease" these & get it WRONG.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Causes of death
> 
> 1000/day from smoking
> 250/day from hospitals
> ...


3 onehundred THOUSANDTHS of a second- is ALL it takes- to consume an entire room- in an electrical switchboard "HIGH_FAULT EXPLOSION.?
I don't care if u smoke, have cancer- even parachute jump- without ur parachute
0.0003secs is a very QUICK way to die.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> That's the whole "signature analysis" thing with AFCIs; distinguishing good arcs from bad arcs.


Ah- so? (I'll play dumb here- as I KNOW the answer)
These AFCI's that U americans use (on Ur lower voltage 120v - we use 240v/415volt in NZ), DO THEY "somehow tell the difference, between the "sort circuit "arc" of the capacitive "trickle leackage fault, caused by poor insulation, or he NORMAL running current of say a 15watt pilot bulb, as well as the "teasing" arc, from some idiot trying to BURN the contacts of what WAS a good switch, from THAT of the INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS "large arc's always occurring INSIDE Ur wife's VACUUM CLEANER MOTOR, as well as telling?
NO?
it does not.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

PaliBob said:


> Congratulations on including some history. It sounds like you have started with all the right steps.
> 
> When you say *everything* did you mean just the AFCI breaker? If so there may be an overlooked AFCI protected receptacle that is outside the Bedroom.
> 
> ...


But? Obviously, SOME here, BUILDING INSPECTORS EVEN, as well as a few DIY homehandy men, "appear' to be vastly more skill trained than A "mere" Industrial Electrician ((whom graduated WITH HONOURS)) so- go fry yourselves.. 
I don't care.
.
All I care about- is the 1st precaution in that PDF that PaliBob submitted... BUT NONE OF YOU READ.

? 
& U do not know- SO
"go" & read it now.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

*Precautions:-

DANGER:-

HAZARD OF ELECTRIC SHOCK, EXPLOSION OR ARC FLASH​This document is written for qualified electricians. Other than connecting
and disconnecting receptacle loads, the work described here should be
done only by trained professionals.​Failure to follow these instructions will result in death or​serious injury.
*


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

L84DnR said:


> *Precautions:-
> 
> DANGER:-
> 
> ...


READ THE LINE- it says "WILL" KILL"

Not "maybe"
Not "oh - can I tease?
Can I "bypass"?

CAN I DISOBEY ALL SAFETY ADVICE?
?

The thread starter said a PROTECTION DEVICE FAILED.?
& asked for help.

THE PRECAUTIONS GIVEN WITH THESE UNITS...
specifically say- FIND THE FAULT-

BEFORE RE-POWERING THE CIRCIUIT..

There ARE no 2nd chances... Uv had it.

The protection "tripped".

DO NOT thinK? Oh? I can tease a "sw" (after U were told a fault exists) NOR to "bypass_this" ? with a "piece" of non_protection wire? & Simply being "able" to do an inspection of the building- for "overviews" does NOT imply U know what to look for- UNLESS U are a fully HIGHLY qualified Electrical Inspector, (& even they die- when they "GET IT WRONG").

DO NOT PLAY.
If the device trips. LEAVE THE CIRCUIT DEAD & fault find the CORRECT WAY.


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

But?
Then again- I should have "known" better...
this is NOT an electrician's SITE...

It's a DIY (DEAD_IF_YOU) DO IT YOURSELF - "home" handy man's "UM? site...


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

You already done with that lightning book?

Here's some more homework; Google the phrase below

define: bombast


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Yoyizit said:


> Causes of death
> 
> 1000/day from smoking
> 250/day from hospitals
> ...


P.s 
U "forgot" the 100% death rate- at the END of any "life".
So it does NOT matter what statistic U throw at me-? 
If U die - (as a result of ELECTRICAL INCOMPETENCE)

It's a 100% fatality RATE.

Plus? I suppose U do HAVE "fire" insurence?
Which simply means ths...
Ur RISK is actually HIGHER than mine.

I have ZERO insurance... thus ZERO risk.

& finally...
U ARE WRONG... as it does NOT MATTER ... if you use an OLD sw or circuit breaker, NEW sw or circuit breaker...

IF U tease a "sw" ("precisely")... 
IT IS POSSIBLE with ANY "switch" to create a delay_crossover function ... & thus an ARC (however minor)

The SNAP action- to which U refer- is the one the CIRCUIT BREAKER USES... & even "these" (NEW) can ARC severely... which is WHY they are specifically "built" with "extremely_efficient" (ANTI_ARC) suppression_chambers... 

THEY ARC.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

:laughing: Sometimes I feel like I talk to much. :laughing: Guess not. :laughing:


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## L84DnR (Jul 12, 2009)

Leah Frances said:


> :laughing: Sometimes I feel like I talk to much. :laughing: Guess not. :laughing:


;-) ok POINT NOTED.. 
I'm login off...


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Someone owes me a dollar.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Assuming nothing has been changed the odds are he has a neutral fault that is common to all lights on that branch circuit. Likely in the switch box where power is brought first then onward to the other switches and lights. But could be in a receptacle box if power went to the switches and lights from it. He could narrow things down a tad if he removed light bulbs then tried the switches to see when the neutral fault showed itself with only one fixture with bulbs installed.

As for all the conversation from our friend in NZ ..120 volt single phase branch circuits do not react the same to arc flash as large switch gear in *high* voltage cabinets. It's like comparing apples to mangoes... or is it oranges...

RCD's cannot be compared to AFCI's. They can be compared to GFCI breakers to the extent of protecting one branch circuit. An RCD protects several branch circuits. Afci's if installed since 2005 are combination devices that detect both series and parallel arcs of the bad kind. Duration has a big play in a good and bad arc and current flow at the arc.. RCD's do not detect arcs. They only detect loss of current equalization between conductors in the branch circuit. Arcs do not always display themselves with minute current leakages to ground or neutral and therefore will not be detected by a RCD or GFCI which is our similar protective device. 


Rather than me giving one of my famous always clear as mud dissertations I would suggest googling 'combination afci'. And spend some time reading. Square d offers a 'free' 10 minute training on afci if you want to order the product at no cost. They were sending it via e-mail but I'm not sure now what they do.

BTW the afci is very controversial at this time as most of us know and is not yet widely accepted by local jurisdictions, though more and more are requiring them.

For those interested here is a basic explaination of the combination afci now mandated by the national electrical code in the USA.

http://www.squared.com/us/products/...6852571F1005D526F/$file/IAEI - Jan-Feb 08.pdf

Unfortunately the OP seems to have vanished so we may never know if he revealed the whole stroy or not...nor will we find out the solution.....

Thanks Leah........:thumbup:


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Stubbie - As for all the conversation from our friend in NZ ..120 volt single phase branch circuits do not react the same to arc flash as large switch gear in high voltage cabinets. It's like comparing apples to mangoes... or is it oranges...

*KIWIS*

Oh stop me, or I'll go too far.... :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Stubbie.,

Let me expand with the RCD due you know I do work both USA and France system { yeah I go back and forth both places}

The older RCD are nortius for tripping due very poor design sorta simauir to the early generation GFCI were way back early to mid 70's if you recall that.

Now speed the time warp to modern time most RCD's are not really capabaile to fuction like AFCI but few do detect arc fault but at diffrent setting than what the North American verison is.

And yes the RCD do come in single , double and YES the triphase verison as well.

Merci,Marc


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## bodner (Jul 31, 2009)

*Arch fault devise*

Great forum, I am a woman sculptor and specialize in custom chandelier art, I am a UL certified engineer for luminairs. Recently a designer client emailed me with a bill (6 months after work was done and a year after fixtures were installed)for an electrician who switched out sockets on several of my fixtures claiming they were causing the new Arch fault devise to trip, the sockets, were brand new UL listed high quality Leviton, tested in my shop three times for shorts, damage and Hi-pot tested as well, fixtures passed. After emailing back and forth the electrician says the fixture worked fine but the light bulbs were not staying screwed in the socket "due to thermal shrinkage" which I find to be silly as I have been using these sockets for 10 years,

My UL inpector advised me to not pay the bill but get the old sockets back from client and send to manufacturer for a claim, client said work was dome months ago (they did not call me then of course) and sockets were gone. I do not feel resposible for the $1200 bill as this soulds like a faulty devise? Client is very upset and wants to pass the buck to me but even though they are a good client, I was not given a chance to inspect fixtures myself or even trouble shoot over the phone and I stand by the high quality of my work, paying would admit my fixtures were at fault.

what do you guys think?

Any help would be greatly apprciated


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

bodner said:


> what do you guys think?
> 
> Any help would be greatly apprciated


http://www.google.com/search?client..."+nuisance+arc+fault+patent&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...hts=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=off

So is the Burden of Proof on you or them?


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## bodner (Jul 31, 2009)

*Arch fault devise*

Them, they did not provide any proof or even give me a call back in Feb when the issue came up, no image, no returned fixture, just the Electricians bill


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Expressing concern and hope*



L84DnR said:


> Thankyou...
> but hopefully the original thread starter (whom seems to have vanished) has ACTUALLY taken some notice, & NOT fried himself inside his switchboard
> 
> (Me? I've been there "too" & ended UP with a very frazzled head, electrocution'ally THROWN_PHYSICALLY across a "freezing_works" floor one afternoon in ? 1983?)


To enhance your concern and hope for the safety of the "Original Thread Starter" who "Seems to have vanished". Let's go by the assumption that he/she doesn't have a high voltage Switchboard in the house. (No matter what):laughing::no::drink:don't drink and Drive!!!


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Addendum to previous post*

ALL the posters have been wonderful with the advice! It enhaces my point on another thread, that with such expert, professional advice, anyone who knows on which end to pick up a screwdriver --or a pair of plyers-- should get into DIY and take advantage of this site to take and offer advice. (No matter what :yes::no::drinkon't drink and Drive!!!


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## bodner (Jul 31, 2009)

*great site*

:thumbsup:

Happy to have found this thread***hoping to find a resolution to my problem with the arch fault devise issue for my client. HAPPY TO GIVE MY EXPERT ADVISE ON LIGHTING FIXTURES and or WELDING/FABRICATION**


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*definition of terms!*



bodner said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Happy to have found this thread***hoping to find a resolution to my problem with the arch fault devise issue for my client. HAPPY TO GIVE MY EXPERT ADVISE ON LIGHTING FIXTURES and or WELDING/FABRICATION**


You've come to the right place. But it's not ARCH faults that we're concerned 
about here. Rather ARC, as in Spark (plug). Does anyone see the irony here?!
(No matter what) :laughing::no::drinkon't drink and Drive!!!


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## Sparkykaboom (Nov 15, 2009)

*Switches arc thus...*

Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Sparkykaboom said:


> Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.


Seems like the NEC 2008 considers lighting bedrooms & other areas are required to be AFCI protected

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

Lighting *Outlet*: An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire



> The 2005 _National Electrical Code_ mandated combination AFCIs for all 120-V, 15- and 20-A branch circuits that supply bedroom outlets in new homes starting January 1, 2008, which generally includes receptacle outlets, lighting outlets and smoke alarm outlets. The 2008 NEC expands the requirements for combination AFCIs beyond bedroom circuits to include other areas in a home, such as family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, closets and hallways


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## n0c7 (May 15, 2008)

Sparkykaboom said:


> Switches are not to be on an Arc Fault circuit as they produce arcing switching on/off. The purpose of an Arc Fault is to reduce/prevent a fire from a device plugged into the wall outlet that having furniture pushed up against the cord. Which is why this is in bedrooms.


I remember this being preached as well. I stopped using lights altogether on the same circuits as receptacles because of this. Do you know what the CEC says for us?


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## Sparkykaboom (Nov 15, 2009)

*cec code for afci*



n0c7 said:


> I remember this being preached as well. I stopped using lights altogether on the same circuits as receptacles because of this. Do you know what the CEC says for us?


The rule specifically states receptacles must be on a afci... which also implies no lighting as a switch produces an arc and would trip the afci breaker. You're rule of thumb of not putting lights on the same circuit as plugs is the same as mine... eliminate problems. Dislike opening a panel and seeing "lights & plugs" marking breakers 3-8 times. Like thanks really... not like anyone needs to know where in the house.


CEC 26-722 (f) Branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter; and 
(g) for the purpose if Item (f); an "arc-fault circuit interrupter" means a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc-faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc-fault is detected.

32-110 (fire alarm section) smoke alarms/carbon monoxide detectors shall not be installed where a circuit is protected by GFCI or AFCI


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Sparkykaboom said:


> The rule specifically states receptacles must be on a afci... which also implies no lighting as a switch produces an arc and would trip the afci breaker. You're rule of thumb of not putting lights on the same circuit as plugs is the same as mine... eliminate problems. Dislike opening a panel and seeing "lights & plugs" marking breakers 3-8 times. Like thanks really... not like anyone needs to know where in the house.
> 
> 
> CEC 26-722 (f) Branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter; and
> ...


Unfortunately your belief that switches and lights are not put on AFCI is misinformation.... but it's your story....

I'm also not sure how you stretch the cec code to say that light switches are not put on afci based on the code section you quote...I don't see how you can read it that way. I also don't see how you could ever have switched receptacles in your bedroom which is commonly done in both the USA and Canada. The normal operation of a switch will not create an arc that is of enough duration for the afci to detect it or identify its signature as a bad series or parallel arc...so it will not trip... unless the switch is defective. And BTW switches were one of the major reasons that AFCI came into being.... Faulty switches have been the cause of many bedroom fires. So you dang sure want them on AFCI....if you believe in afci.. many still do not and I might be one of them...:wink:

Anyway operation of a correctly working switch will not open an afci, this is common knowledge in the trade. There are many events that cause arcs on afci protected circuits Simply plugging in your vacuum sweeper may cause an arc if you forget and have it turned on. This will not trip your afci unless the arc lasts long enough to exceed the threshold of the afci parameters once it starts reading the arc signature.

There was a problem with nuisance tripping in the beginning of afci technology but this was because these early devices could only determine arc signatures for parallel arcs and could not detect a series arc as being bad. The technology has improved vastly to where afci's are now combination devices...meaning they detect and signature both series and parallel arcs. Once this was accomplished both the cec and the nec expanded the requirement of afci protected branch circuits to go outside sleeping areas.

FWIW... I'm not a fan of afci... but it is because of cost vs benefit not so much the issue with the devices tripping out unnecessarily.


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## Sparkykaboom (Nov 15, 2009)

*NEC is not CEC*

It is not misinformation to Canadians and It's not my "story" that is what has been explained to me by Electrical Inspectors in my province. That is the interpretation that the Electrical Council decided in my province (talking with other jmen from across canada it seems that is the standard to NOT put lights on the afci circuits).
NEC & CEC do vary on many many codes & we can argue back & forth all day long on that point. The understanding is the standards in the US are different than Canadian standards. We do things differently in Canada. CEC Code. 26-722(f),(g) and 32-110(a)(ii) 

I follow the 2009 CEC and in definitions receptacles are "one or more female contact devices, on the same yoke, installed at an outlet for connection of one or more attachment plugs".
There is a completely different definition for luminaries, lampholders.
Luminarie "a complete lighting unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s) and to connect the lamp(s) to circuit conductors"
Lampholder "a device constructed for the mechanical support of lamps and for connecting them to circuit conductors.

This being said Canadian code is bedroom receptacle are to be protected by an afci. NOT smokies, Co2, or lighting.

I have done many houses/condos, etc and I have yet to put a switched receptacle in a bedroom - the plugging in a lamp to light a room no so common where I'm from. Now my house has 1 in the master bedroom but it was also built in 1982. I've put many switched receptacles in the living room of houses/condos.

To use an afci outside of the bedroom I'm not against as it's a step above what code asks for... again not on lighting.

2009 CEC afci is stated in the 2 areas I stated previously from the code book - thus no mentioning of placing them outside of the bedroom. Arc-Flash (which is completely different) has been majorly overhauled.

Comment on NEC all you like, it's clear you are not up to CEC code again it's vastly different than NEC.

"the 2008 NEC now requires the technology to be installed in additional areas of the home, including dining rooms, living rooms, and other habitable areas" - this isn't CEC

*The Evolution to Develop Arc Fault Technology*

Research in the arc fault arena began in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) identified a concern with residential fires of electrical origin. The CPSC discovered that one-third of electrical fires originated in the branch-circuit wiring systems of homes, which led to the first Code proposals to require AFCI protection.
The first requirement for AFCIs appeared in the 1999 NEC under Sec. 210.12. Subsequent NEC editions have further upgraded the requirements for its use. The 1999 edition rules, which became effective in 2002, required that dwelling unit bedrooms in new homes have AFCIs installed to protect only branch circuits that supply 125V, single-phase, 15A and 20A receptacle outlets.
 After further research and analysis of the technology and its potential safety benefits, the 2002 edition updated Sec. 210.12 and expanded the requirement for AFCIs to include all bedroom circuits in new homes, including those that supply lighting fixtures, smoke alarms, and other equipment. Section 210.12 was again revised in 2005 to provide for a technology upgrade to the combination type of AFCIs. While previous generations of AFCIs detected parallel arcing, the combination AFCI could also detect series arcing.
The 2008 NEC further recognized the combination AFCI. In its attempt to take electrical safety a step further, it now requires that all new home construction install combination AFCIs in additional living areas in the home as well as bedrooms.


That article again is for the United States and NOT Canada. Please don't be spreading misinformation to Canadians by applying National Electrical Code vs the Canadian Electrical Code.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

And this is why people need to fill out their location in their profile
It's the 1st question I usually ask if the info is not there
I sometimes will not reply until the person indicates where they are


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I apologize if you felt I was insulting the Canadian code, that was not my intention. They do differ in many areas. In some cases I find the CEC superior to the NEC. I'm simply stating that your not showing in the CEC code where lights cannot be on afci. I have no intention of arguing CEC over NEC or one is better than the other. You guys have the CEC and it is very well respected even here in the USA.. I have no intention of disputing its worthiness... that would be rather stupid don't you think? I do have a brain though and unless you can show me how you go from a sub-section stating that branch circuits serving receptacles in bedrooms must be afci and that implies you can't afci lights I'm going to have trouble understanding.... What you say may very well be true but I would like to see something more definitive. The defintions are helpful but only if you can link them to the code articles about afci where they substantiate language.

Somewhere it should say lighting branch circuits are not to be on afci. Or that lights are not to be on branch circuits serving receptacles that are afci protected. I find it hard to believe that they would imply something this critical. Otherwise maybe this is a provincial requirement or maybe a common practice. 

What I would really like to see is a device that sets off the smokies when the wife plugs 25 cords into receptacles to cook for the holidays.... 

Have a good day


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## Sparkykaboom (Nov 15, 2009)

"I'm simply stating that your not showing in the CEC code where lights cannot be on afci."
The answer as in the code book 26-722 (f) and (g) - I typed out (f) already.

"unless you can show me how you go from a sub-section stating that branch circuits serving receptacles in bedrooms must be afci and that implies you can't afci lights"
26-722 (f) and see Section 0 of the CEC for definitions of Receptacle (which is clearly stated in 26-722 (f) "branch circuits that supply receptacles installed in a sleeping facilities of a dwelling unit shall be protected by an afci" No where in that code does it say luminarie or lampholder. Referring back to Section 0 of the CEC a receptacle is something you plug into a female device - not a luminarie or lampholder. Therefore lighting (switching from a wall plate) is not a receptacle and bedroom lights are NOT to be on a afci.

If you want to see something more definitive I suggest you buy a CEC, talk to an electrical inspector in Canada, or take the advice of someone who's been working in the trade for a long time and has been told by the provincial and federal bodies that create our code book what the rules are and how they are to be interpreted. Or Better yet call the CSA and talk to one of the electrical staff and ask them your question.

"What you say may very well be true but I would like to see something more definitive. The defintions are helpful but only if you can link them to the code articles about afci where they substantiate language."
There seems to be a lack of understanding how the CEC works because it is all within the CEC of definitions and code. It's an easy book to follow for Canadians.

"Somewhere it should say lighting branch circuits are not to be on afci. Or that lights are not to be on branch circuits serving receptacles that are afci protected. I find it hard to believe that they would imply something this critical. Otherwise maybe this is a provincial requirement or maybe a common practice. "
Like I've said above so I'll repeat it again. When it says receptacles (a device you plug into thus not being a lamp/light/luminarie) in bedroom must be afci... in Canada you don't imply that you can put it on and afci because it just told you in black & white receptacles, receptacles, receptacles. Just like the cec states you can't put smoke alarm/detector, CO2 on with an afci circuit. If you were allowed luminaries, lights, lampholders on an afci it would state you can and not have 3 notes in the cec about afci's in the bedroom. Just like there is NO code change on having it anywhere else in the house. I understand and have read the NEC on the afci and what can go on it. The case is just not the same in Canada.

For the simple fact you keep saying the information I'm giving is wrong - that's arguing plain and simple. Offer your advice, give your opinion on a subject. But to tell someone who knows the codes of Canada inside and out that they don't know how to interpret their code is ignorant. Please do not address this point with me unless you come up with solid proof that says luminarie, lampholders, or lights can be put on an afci in Canada. A lot of products in the states are not certified for use in canada. There will be no changes to the cec until 2012.

peace out


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok how about we set aside our bad start and we start over?

I am not a Canadian code expert so I'm asking you to help me understand if the CEC prohibits afci on bedroom lights. Maybe this is where I got off track and came across as saying that the CEC requires lights to be afci...

What I understand from your explanation is that rule 26-722(F)(G) says that only bedroom receptacles are required to be afci.... that's my interpretation. It says nothing about whether or not lights might also be on the same branch circuit or that they are prohibited on the branch circuit with the receptacles.

It is common in the USA to have both receptacles and lights on the same bedroom branch circuit.

So the question is... why are lights not on branch circuits that serve bedroom receptacles in Canada? Because very simply if I have to protect the entire branch circuit with an afci breaker then if lights are also on that branch circuit they would also be protected.


So I'm looking at rule 30-104 (A) that says lights are to be on 15 amp branch circuits only... I think that is what it is saying...

So from what I know about Canadian code you cannot put 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp branch circuits like you can in the USA. 

If I am correctly interpreting that section of code then it could be that your receptacles circuits for bedrooms are 20 amp? And therefore this would prohibit lights from sharing the branch circuit with 20 amp receptacles...

So I must agree with you in that the CEC does not require lights to be afci protected... but.. I don't think it prohibits it....

My problem with the rule 26-722 (F)(G) is it says branch circuits serving receptacles to bedrooms must be afci protected but it does not say that lights would not also be on that branch circuit and therefore would inherit the afci protection because everything on the branch circuit is protected using a afci breaker..

So if lights are not to share bedroom receptacle branch circuits then there must be something that keeps this from happening. It could be that rule 30- 104(A) is why??

But if bedroom branch circuits can have 15 amp receptacles on 15 amp breakers in Canada then you could share with them with lighting circuits. And then the rule would include the lights if shared on the bedroom receptacle branch circuit.

So my question is does the CEC require 20 amp branch circuits for bedrooms? Because this is the only way that you could insure that lights were not also on the branch circuit in terms of code. Or they would have to have a rule....I can't find it...that states lights are not to share a branch circuit serving bedroom receptacles.

I hope I didn't make to much of a shambles of the CEC in my defense to prove what is correct with this afci thing. 

I was incorrect about the CEC expanding the required use of AFCI outside the bedroom. It is now clear to me that is not the case. Sorry for that goof.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

SparkyKaboom (poster #56) I didn't notice your geographic location. I once (some time ago) worked with the Canadian Electrical Code. Right now the NEC (National Electrical Code) on top of the local amendments is what I apply to my work. But what I said in one of my posts applies just the same. That it's much easier and less costly in terms of time and money spent, to correct a violation rather than take it to Court. Because when an Inspector issues a violation, it's based on Code. The court will automatically call an Expert Witness, who will only confirm that the violation must be corrected.
Eliminate confusion:yes::no: Through Education:smartass:!!!


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