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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I would change everything you can get to to pex


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## Tatertot (Jan 7, 2012)

Do you trust plastic or cooper?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Tatertot said:


> Do you trust plastic or cooper?


I don't know if you're talking to me or not but I want to clarify mt previous post-
Replace all the galvanized pipe you can. I have no problems with copper.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

A whole lot faster and cheaper to use Pex. 
Might want to check out Pex Supply on the net. There prices for things like ball valves run about 1/2 what the box stores charge.
I also change all your main run to 3/4" not 1/2. Sure looks like someone used 1/2 on your water heater.
You will notice a big differance in the water pressure and flow with the larger lines.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

a


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Scully said:


> i'm leaning towards pex, but i have some questions:
> 
> 1. will pex freeze in crawl space?
> 
> ...


1. Pex will freeze- so will copper or steel. But it is more resistant to bursting. Any water line should be properly protected from freezing

2. Yes. You can bend it to save on fittings. The manufacturers websites should list the bending radius allowed.

3. I've heard stories of this happening but have not experienced it- maybe urban legends?


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## funfool (Oct 5, 2012)

The biggest complaints I have heard about pex, mice will chew on it.
I have all pex in my home and have no mice. Plumber have used for years switches all old crap to pex,
It will freeze like any plumbing, will expand when frozen and then thaw out and go back to original size with no leaks.
I have friends that use it in their summer cabins, freezes over the winter and fine in the spring ... they do not bother to blow out the lines when they leave.

I am a fan of pex, I have not heard a good argument against using it.


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

If you feed the rats they will not eat your pex...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Leave the Copper that you have, change out the Galvanized to PEX. Easier to pull than trying to feed long sections of Copper. Especially if you are spending your time laying on your back under there.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Scully said:


> i'm leaning towards pex, but i have some questions:
> 
> 1. will pex freeze in crawl space?
> 
> ...


Everything with water in it, will freeze. You just need to make sure that space does not get down below freezing. If it does, insulate around the pipes, and use heat tape down the length of it, to keep it from freezing.

I would suggest placing a remote temp sensor down there, so that you can read what the temp is from say the utility room. Something like what you see in vehicles works fine. You would just have to drop the wire down the wall, with the bulb hanging down into the crawl space.


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

I heard the pex will not burst augment. All I will say is not true. Pex has replaced copper for price and easy of use. In many cases copper is better.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

mj12 said:


> I heard the pex will not burst augment. All I will say is not true. Pex has replaced copper for price and easy of use. In many cases copper is better.


Pex will burst just like Copper, if you let it freeze. If it gets too cold, it will crack like nothing you have ever seen, because it will become brittle like any plastic product, once you get to really sub-zero temps. Remember Pex is a trademarked name, and not every tubing that you find at the big box stores will truly be PEX brand. Most is cheap Chinese garbage that should never be on the shelf, same as the Copper that is on the shelves at most places.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

mj12 said:


> I heard the pex will not burst augment. All I will say is not true. Pex has replaced copper for price and easy of use. In many cases copper is better.


I prefer copper as well and pex is cheaper and easier. As for freezing- not only have I heard this argument but I have witnessed it. :yes: I have seen 1" CI fittings on fire sprinkler lines crack and flood a casino floor while my pex only froze and swelled, then thaw and return to service with no leaks.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Once, we filled a short piece with water- capped both ends and froze it in the freezer at the shop. Thawed out fine...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

TheEplumber said:


> Once, we filled a short piece with water- capped both ends and froze it in the freezer at the shop. Thawed out fine...


That is different then taking it somewhere with a flash freezer and placing the pipe under pressure at the same time.

Pex has some give, but again, you get at very low sub-freezing temps, it will become brittle same as Copper piping, and will burst under pressure. Now this is interesting: Perforation by insects. PEX tubing is vulnerable to being perforated by the mouthparts of plant-feeding insects; in particular, the Western conifer seed bug (Leptoglossus occidentalis) is known to sometimes pierce through PEX tubing, resulting in leakage.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

gregzoll said:


> That is different then taking it somewhere with a flash freezer and placing the pipe under pressure at the same time.
> 
> Pex has some give, but again, you get at very low sub-freezing temps, it will become brittle same as Copper piping, and will burst under pressure.


I don't think even Ironman could withstand a flash freeze under presure :jester:
We're talking about pex in a crawl space that is assumed to be properly protected with insulation and even heat tape as you suggested....


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Scully said:


> i have 3 more questions:
> 
> 1. let's say there's 27 feet of hot and 27 feet of cold pex piping that needs to be installed. what's a ball park figure for how much it will cost, including labor?
> 
> ...


1. I'd guess around 4 man hrs. judging from a picture. You can plug in the labor rate and material prices for your area.
Labor time will depend on fittings, access, driving distance, etc

2. yes. We would use ploy or pex around here

3. insulate- I don't see the need for heat tape, if you put insulation batts in your joists you won't need to use a pipe wrap on the pipes as long as the pipe is above the batts-at least around my area


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Scully said:


> i'm leaning towards pex, but i have some questions:
> 
> 1. will pex freeze in crawl space?
> 
> ...


OMG. PEX, and it's not even close for a DIYer.

PEX can freeze, but it is less likely to do so, because the thicker plastic transmits heat less than thinner metal. That's just common sense. (By the way, that means it holds its temperature better on the way to your fixture as well.) And if PEX _does_ freeze, the pipe is less likely to burst because there's a bit of flexibility in it.

Of course PEX works better with angles and curves.

I've never heard anything about rodents and PEX, good question. But of course your crawlspace should be sealed off to rodents.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

funfool said:


> It will freeze like any plumbing


Do you mean "like all plumbing pipes, PEX will freeze", or "PEX will freeze in the same manner as any plumbing pipes"? The latter isn't true.

Keeping them up close to your insulation along joists will help keep them from freezing.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

mj12 said:


> I heard the pex will not burst augment. All I will say is not true.


That's not really the point. The point is that it doesn't burst as easily.



mj12 said:


> Pex has replaced copper for price and easy of use. In many cases copper is better.


It's replaced it for more reasons than that. In which cases is copper better?


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

TheEplumber said:


> 1. I'd guess around 4 man hrs. judging from a picture.


Really depends on how many branches and connections there are (perhaps you picked that up from the picture - I can't tell.) If it was replacing a 20 foot section here and a 25 foot section there, I don't see why it would take more than 1 hour.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

I had a plumber re-do most of the plumbing in my 1950s house during a gut remodel of the kitchen/bath. I have an unfinished basement.

He used copper in all the walls. He used PEX in the basement.

His argument is that he trusts copper fittings to not leak over time and would rather put them in walls vs. PEX. But that PEX is so much better to use for unfinished spaces due to cost and flexibility.

The only things I've done myself in the house are to add/replace outside hose bibs and install a water heater, in both cases the work was in the basement and I used PEX piping and SharkBite fittings... all I can say that is the doing plumbing work used to literally (pun intended) make me sweat and I dreaded it... now it's a 30 second activity and I have had zero problems.

Something to think about if you go with SharkBite... the money you save on PEX vs. copper for the piping will be quickly eaten up by the increased cost for the fittings, elbows, etc... 

Make sure you support runs of PEX well--it's not like copper where you can fudge it, you should try to get support in there every 16-24" and don't ever leave it in a state where pressure on/off will cause the pipe will wiggle much, or any other reason will cause movement, because I think it will fatigue connection points (same is true for copper of course, but I think PEX is going to be less forgiving).

Buy a decent PEX cutter... don't chop/hack with scissors or dull knives... it can deform the pipe or cause bad edges, etc... I bought one that looks like a big cigar cutter... gives me a nice clean cut with even edges each time.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Sharkbite-style fittings are great in really hard to reach places, or copper to PEX connections, or other situations, but yes - if you use them you'll pretty much eat up your PEX savings over copper. If you're going to do much, you really have to invest in a PEX crimper, that's where the savings start showing up. You can connect PEX wet, which is a huge advantage over copper IMO.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

They can rent the Pex crimper Jeffnc, or just do the rough pull work, then have a plumber that knows how to terminate the PEX, do that, and the pressure testing, then sign off on the job, so the city knows that it was done per their rules. There are still some cities/villages, that look at PEX as not as trustworthy as Copper, even though PEX has been around for over 80 years, and is also used around High voltage lines as a insulator.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I have this kit, so it's getting to a price point where it's got to be of questionable value to rent (but I could be wrong) especially since you could always sell your kit on eBay if you won't be using it anymore.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_151617-61002-69PTKH0015K_0__

I like the idea of doing part of the work and then getting a plumber (or in other cases an electrician) to finish the work and permit it, but around here I haven't had any luck getting any of them to do that for me.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Off topic posts removed-


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

all your copper pipes are fine. Just replace the rest with pex. Not a bad job for a plumber.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

thanks to all for your advices. i have 2 questions:

1. does pex react with bleach? as in when bleach is used to chlorinate the well.

2. i'm certain that the 2" steel water pipe from the well is rusty. i don't know if/when i'll ditch the well and bring in city water...so i'm not sure if i should keep this steel pipe. any thoughts?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

It depends on how much bleach is being used in the chlorination. When was the last time that you had your water checked at Uni of Wi Stevens Point? http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/weal/Pages/Homeowner.aspx Here is a White paper regarding your question http://www.ppxiv.com/posters/castagnetti_poster.pdf


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

I have used pex made by Uponor and use the slide over rings and expansion gun. I have never had a problem with pex bursting. Where I have seen it happen is were the fittings are and when they are brass fittings the composite fittings I have yet to see break.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I personally would use CPVC, and transition to Copper inside. CPVC is quite resistant to freeze thaw cycling, from what I understand. 

A lot of the guys really like PEX. Crimped fittings give me the willies. Mixing different materials gives me the willies. (Plastic/copper crimp rings) I may be wrong. I was once in 1956 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Time will tell.


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## Tatertot (Jan 7, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> It's replaced it for more reasons than that. In which cases is copper better?


When a homeowner hangs a picture :laughing::laughing:


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

jagans said:


> A lot of the guys really like PEX. Crimped fittings give me the willies. Mixing different materials gives me the willies. (Plastic/copper crimp rings) I may be wrong. I was once in 1956 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Time will tell.


i thought about that also: is mixing copper and pex as reliable, like this section in pic?


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Scully said:


> i thought about that also: is mixing copper and pex as reliable, like this section in pic?


Copper converts to pex rather well- a lot better than your current condition.
In my part of the country pex is the preferred re-pipe material
Copper is to expensive and requires more labor plus the risk of fire.
CPVC is almost nonexistent at my supplier. It has a bad reputation around my parts


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Tatertot said:


> When a homeowner hangs a picture :laughing::laughing:


I see the smiley, but not necessarily. Copper stays in place firmly, so a screw can pierce it. PEX is flexible, and might get nudged out of the way.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm a big fan of Pez, never had any problems.


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

I agree expansion gun over crippling tool. Pex has a memory will go back to original size. I think guys go with the crippling tool because its cheaper then buying the expansion gun. I could be wrong. They might be the same price.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

747 said:


> I agree expansion gun over crippling tool.


Hell, I'd take almost anything over a crippling tool.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

i have a section of copper pipes that looks very dated (see the red circle below). they go through the crawl space and connect to the kitchen sink. should i replace this section with pex? NOTE: i can only put my hand in slightly in the box section in pic 2.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

That section is up to you. Personally, just replace everything in the crawlspace that is galvanized. Only replace Copper piping, if it is getting really bad in shape (ie dinged up, fittings are getting to the point that they are corroding), with newer sections.

Your best thing to do, is really get three or four plumbers that have done this type of work, interview them, show them a drawing of what you want done (if you want a manifold for shutting of separate runs to various areas, at the main line coming in, make that up along with maybe another one without the manifold, but where you would like shutoffs to be easily reached).


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Ghostmaker said:


> If you feed the rats they will not eat your pex...


Yeah, Feed them No.6. That has pretty good spread and good hitting power in 12 Gage, modified choke.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

I wonder what AH left that galvanized pipe in the crawlspace? I guess the low bidder, and he was right there to remove the drain lines, geeez. No support at the tub trap either. Hack. What do the two rubber lines in photo 2 go to?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

jagans said:


> I wonder what AH left that galvanized pipe in the crawlspace? I guess the low bidder, and he was right there to remove the drain lines, geeez. No support at the tub trap either. Hack. What do the two rubber lines in photo 2 go to?


It was done that way 40-50 years ago, when people changed from galvanized to Copper in those older homes with Galv. potable water pipe. If the piping was good, they would leave it in place, and only replace those sections that needed to be.


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

gregzoll said:


> It was done that way 40-50 years ago, when people changed from galvanized to Copper in those older homes with Galv. potable water pipe. If the piping was good, they would leave it in place, and only replace those sections that needed to be.


Yeah, I know Greg. I replumbed houses years ago that had more transition fittings than Els. The copper in the OP's home looked fairly new though and that house was built in the 40's or early 50's based on the diagonal Doug Fir T&G subfloor.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

jagans said:


> What do the two rubber lines in photo 2 go to?


the 2 lines go to the kitchen...see below.



i'm confused...these 2 lines circled in red is copper? would it be best to replace this entire section in crawl space with pex?


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## jagans (Oct 21, 2012)

Note the severe galvanic action going on in the left side of the red circle where the copper pipe is hitting the galvanized pipe. You need to get on this pretty quick. Really slipshod work.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

jagans said:


> Note the severe galvanic action going on in the left side of the red circle where the copper pipe is hitting the galvanized pipe. You need to get on this pretty quick. Really slipshod work.


i know...that's why i've stopped using kitchen sink. i think it's been like this for almost 10 years.

can this section circled in red be replaced with new copper, even with the angle it has to make in crawl space?


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

this picture is the well water pipe. what is that dark pipe? is that copper? if i had the budget, i'd replace the steel pipes from the well, as well (no pun intended).


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## Ralph Coolong (Jun 19, 2013)

Pex it.. Good stuff. I live up here in Maine and it gets 30 below in the winter.
I hooked up my outside water faucet with pex and shark bite fittings and I don't even drain the line that's exposed to the out side all winter..Five years now and not a problem.. Now I am doing my new bathroom with the pex.
Its a little more money :whistling2:but worth every penny..
Good luck


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## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

That black pipe may be plastic well line.


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## Scully (Dec 3, 2011)

Ghostmaker said:


> That black pipe may be plastic well line.


you are probably right. a new well pump was installed in 2002. is there any point to replacing the rest of the steel well pipes if the inside of the well casing looks like this?



another shot of the black well pipe.


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