# The pine tongue and groove has no



## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

tongue or groove on the ends. I'm using it for flooring. Do I face nail ends? Or, just leave them alone and use the floor nailer only on the sides? Or, worst case scenario.... is this flooring????? if it has no tongue or groove on the ends. They are long pieces that I intend to cut to sizes I want.


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

and, when face nailing, what nails should be used? It's interior over plywood subflooring.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

brenda....if it was flooring the ends would be t&g. No worry, Ive seen it used and in most cases it looks ok. 

How wide are the boards? It depends how wide your boards are and how flat they are, as to whether you need to nail the ends. I would say anything over 4" should be nailed to keep any bowing in check.

You could have the ends t&g'd, or do it yourself with router and bits.

I suppose biscuits would be an alternative.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

i ran across this problem once, i ended up just cutting the grooves on BOTH ends on my table saw, then ripped out some scrap to glue in tight as a tongue. then i had t&g.... easy and cheap....

DM


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## bjbatlanta (Jul 16, 2008)

Sounds like you've got T&G siding, not flooring......


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

I personally think it will look like crap if you face nail a bunch of boards all over the floor. If you are gonna go that route I would just do them with screw plugs. It will look alot nicer and will probably be quicker than cutting a bunch of tongue and grooves on boards you have to cut to length as well but the T&G would work fine to. The plugs are only really an option if the wood is unfinished too.


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

the boards are 3 1/4 in and seem to look ok butted together now that I've started laying them. I would think the t/g would hold them together anyway, but if anything i would go with gluing the ends and stay with the nailing of just the t/g. I agree, I don't want a bunch of face nails either. My issue is that I specifically asked the vendor and he knew I was purchasing for flooring. Assured me they were for that so don't know why there is no end t/g. and, if i don't glue or nail, will the ends hold together?


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## cdat (Mar 8, 2008)

I'd cut in the T & G myself or else use a biscuit joiner and cut some slots in the ends to hook 'em together.


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

Maybe cause your dealer was either un informed or lying to you :}:}
Biscuit cutter will the the easiest and fastest method, if you wanted to do the ends. That said Make sure the joint is NOT lined up with another and this way the ends are supported by the board that is next in the row, this is how using only the long t&g holds everything together. Staggered joints, the only way to do it and very very easy and NO extra work.:yes:


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brenda o said:


> the boards are 3 1/4 in and seem to look ok butted together now that I've started laying them. I would think the t/g would hold them together anyway, but if anything i would go with gluing the ends and stay with the nailing of just the t/g. I agree, I don't want a bunch of face nails either. My issue is that I specifically asked the vendor and he knew I was purchasing for flooring. Assured me they were for that so don't know why there is no end t/g. and, if i don't glue or nail, will the ends hold together?


 Whether this product is flooring or not should be stated on the package it came in.
Does it say. "Flooring"? If it doesn't, it's not and it should not be used as flooring unless you like the distressed look.
Ron


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## cdat (Mar 8, 2008)

What kind of packaging did this item come in? Was it a return? Random lengths? If so, most likely the person before you took what they needed and returned the unused and cut-offs. Sounds like your dealer is trying to 'get one over on you'. Easy way to tell is if they are all shorter pieces (sorry, missed your last sentence).


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*the boards came from the local "lumbar yard" as we call it. They are*

packaged 6 boards in plastic wrap with all the packs over 10 feet long. It was sold to me by the linear foot after I asked how much a square foot. "Doesn't come like that." Well, ok, what do I know..... they knew it was for flooring and assured me it that it was ok to use. I have a good enough relationship with them there and know people by name, ya know. I built a deck this summer and they made sure i used the right screws and stuff for that so I trusted them. The ends seem to be ok with the t/g holding them together as i nail in the grooves and add the next board. I do want them to stay looking like they do now. I have 6 rows done right now and haven't moved forward until I'm sure about it....i just don't want the ends buckling, ie. "distressed look"


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*reading back*

12penny has seen it used before, i still need help with original question though too. I tried to use that damn floor nailer and sorry but at 120 pounds, I don't have a Paul Bunyan swing to use it. I've been hand nailing and using the nail set so I don't split the wood. Has been working just slow going. The nails are finish nails 2 1/2 in long, am I going to be ok with this part? Again, I appreciate the help! I know, a pneumatic would be better, but thats not happening...........unless I hold off longer even longer. I can do it by hand a little bit at a time after work, weekends....


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## skymaster (Jun 6, 2007)

brendaO : you can go to the pot or Lowes and get a pneumatic kit for less than dirt, several guns and compressor. It would pay for itself in the first 8 hours. You can get a 1/2" crown gun with long enuf capacity for under 200 bucks I wood think


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brenda o said:


> packaged 6 boards in plastic wrap with all the packs over 10 feet long. It was sold to me by the linear foot after I asked how much a square foot. "Doesn't come like that." Well, ok, what do I know..... they knew it was for flooring and assured me it that it was ok to use. I have a good enough relationship with them there and know people by name, ya know. I built a deck this summer and they made sure i used the right screws and stuff for that so I trusted them. The ends seem to be ok with the t/g holding them together as i nail in the grooves and add the next board. I do want them to stay looking like they do now. I have 6 rows done right now and haven't moved forward until I'm sure about it....i just don't want the ends buckling, ie. "distressed look"


The only pine that is used for flooring is Southern yellow pine. You bought wood that is used for walls or ceilings.
The person who advised you is misinformed. 
Around here, lumber yards do not carry flooring.
Ron


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Looks like you getting lot of different points of view. Southern yellow pine is not the only pine used for flooring. I've seen many other types of pine including white pine. They are not used that often because they are softer and don't take abuse like maple or oak. They also tend to move around a lot more with the seasons. It is not uncommon to find flooring without tongue and groove on the ends of the planks. It will be fine as long as you butt the ends up tight to each other. You shouldn't have to face nail with 3 1/4 inch wide board but you should check the material with a moisture meter before you lay any of it down and with pine you will have a little shrinkage even if the moisture is okay. Also, make sure you have a decent substrate to attach the flooring to. A flooring nailer would be your best option.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

DangerMouse said:


> i ran across this problem once, i ended up just cutting the grooves on BOTH ends on my table saw, then ripped out some scrap to glue in tight as a tongue. then i had t&g.... easy and cheap....
> 
> DM


ya mean like this? http://hardwood-floors.mgcrenovations.us/albums/glue down/thumb_tongue_and_groove_flooring.jpg


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

nap said:


> ya mean like this? http://hardwood-floors.mgcrenovations.us/albums/glue down/thumb_tongue_and_groove_flooring.jpg


exactically, except i just had to do the ends....

DM


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

So, here are my thoughts 


cut a dado on the ends so a spline such as I linked will fit snug. There is no more reason to glue the ends than there is the lengths especially since the shrinkage will be greater the width of the board because of grain direction.

If the ends are not cut very cleanly, I would run them through a good table saw or radial arm saw or cut-off saw with a finish blade so the ends are _very _square and clean cut. BOTH ends. If you do not do this, there is a good chance of having a gap showing.

there would be no reason to nail the end with the spline system as it will only flex as much as any other board. Remember, the spline should be snug but not forced tight. It should also be of the same wood as the flooring so the swelling/shrinking cycle would be similar and equal.


your nails should be going into the floor joists, not just the plywood. They ply is not solid enough to hold a nail but the joist is. That means you use quite long nails. I would say around 2 1/4 (allowing for 1" penetration into the joist, through the 3/4" ply and depending on how thick the floorboards are, about 3/4 of that thickness plus the nails are going in at an angle).

as to what wood you are using:

it doesn't make any difference, if the wood you are using is what you want. You should understand any shortcomings of a softer wood though if this is a softer type of pine. If southern yellow pine, this is a very common and desirable floor wood.

Personally, I intend on installing a cork floor (talk about soft) and a bamboo floor in a couple of different rooms in my house. You install what you like and what you want.

when you sand this, you might want the help of a bigger person. A large heavy drum sander is the best way to go with successively finer grits. I cannot tell you what you should end with though. It's been too long for me to remember at the moment.

If you cannot handle the sander, you can damage the floor.

edit: I went back and caught something from another poster:

you should be allowing the boards to acclimate to the temp and humidity of the room at least 2 weeks before installing. You should open up all the packaging you believe you will need and attempt to separate the boards as best you can to speed the process.


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

ahh, such good info! I'll take it all in and thanks again everyone for the help!


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## Gary_602z (Nov 15, 2008)

nap said:


> If you cannot handle the sander, you can damage the floor.


Very true! Just ask me how I know! How thick is the flooring you are putting down?

Gary


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Gary_602z said:


> Very true! Just ask me how I know! How thick is the flooring you are putting down?
> 
> Gary


Oh, that's funny, sort of.

Sorry to hear it sounds like you learned the hard way. Hopefully things all worked out well eventually.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

yup, after the first "oops", you learn to use those things correctly real fast....:wink:

DM


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

its about an inch thick, 3 and a half wide....omg... i saw this one show on DIY with this guy and a run away sander.... was it you


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*seriously though, the sander*

should only smooth it out and then I'm told to use some lacquer thinner or something to get all the grit off. I may just use a small hand sander though.....


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*and i'm using a miter saw to make sure the ends are even. I*

have been making sure both sides are level before cutting too. The ends seem to be butting up good. Using 2 1/2 in nails and have a couple rows done. Looks good. I didn't make t/g ends or bisquits cause I don't know how. I appreciate the comments that are encouraging to use what I want to get the look I want. I was getting pretty nervous there. If I could have I would have went with 5 inch planks but it wasn't available to the extent I was willing to go to purchase it. It will still look nice, its "clean" pine, no knots and the boards haven't been warped. Have had the wood inside for almost a month. Doing a little here and there now with them since I have all the plywood laid now. The particle board underneath wasn't good enough and I listened. That would have been a brutal mistake. So once I get it laid, sanded and cleaned with lacquer thinner? I'll think about staining it, plan on using oil base polyurethane, not sure how many coats so my wood doesn't dent all up since it is a softer wood. Not as soft as bamboo though and do I have to sand in between coats. And, how long between coats, I don't have a lot of room to spare while doing this so time is "of the essence"


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brenda o said:


> should only smooth it out and then I'm told to use some lacquer thinner or something to get all the grit off. I may just use a small hand sander though.....[/quote
> Lacquer thinner is very flammable, so that would be a very,very bad idea.
> Try a vacuum to get the grit off.
> Ron


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*no lacquer thinner then...*

that was the neighbors idea... when I have projects going, everyone has ideas so try to feedback on pretty much everything. And, if I stain it, is it still going to darken on its own even more?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

brenda o said:


> should only smooth it out and then I'm told to use some lacquer thinner or something to get all the grit off. I may just use a small hand sander though.....


a small hand sander will give you an uneven floor. You really need to use as big of a sander as you can. A hand held belt sander would be the smallest I would ever use but understand the limitations.

Ever run a floor polisher?









You can use something like this but you would need to use a belt sander after that to clean off the cross grain sanding that will leave the wood fuzzy.

Not as good as a large drum sander but definitely better than a small sander and less prone to damage by misuse.


small belt sander:


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## indy500 (Oct 27, 2009)

i ve used yellow pine before-#2 - the mill i bought from called it porch lumber-haha- looked good in my 1850 farmhouse.


use a tack rag (moistened rag -i use minerals spirits) before applying urethane-2 -3 coats. the soft pine grain will still raise after coats of urethane- it'll take the fuzz off your socks. i would suggest to buff (floor machine) and wax.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brenda o said:


> that was the neighbors idea... when I have projects going, everyone has ideas so try to feedback on pretty much everything. And, if I stain it, is it still going to darken on its own even more?


 Before you can stain this pine, you need to know what species you have. Soft pine will need to be conditioned first or the wood will splotch due to uneven absorption of the stain.
Ron


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*sanding machine pics very helpful*

as well as the directions with mineral spirits, # of coats of polyurethane to use. When you say "buffer", hmmm... does that mean use the "machine sander" between coats.... or after all 2-3 coats or does that mean a floor polisher buffer of some sort. The pics are helpful to know what I'm suppose to use, thanks again for the help!


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*conditioning the pine flooring first*

hmmm, how? and with what?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the reason you use a large surface area sander when doing the actual sanding is it will make for a smoother floor. A smaller sander will follow the ups and downs of an uneven surface more closely and while smoothing the surface, it will not smooth the area so you can have whoop-de-doos in your floor. They will be smooth though. A large surface area sander will remove the high points so your floor is flatter.

When you sand across the grain of wood, it tears the fibers and jerks them sideways, causing the to no be cut off cleanly, leaving a fuzzy surface. That is why you would go and sand, with the grain, with a directional sander (belt or drum) in the direction of the grain.

Regardless how well you do this, you will end up with some fuzz. The softer the wood, the more fuzz you tend to have. To remedy this, after you begin finishing the floor (as in sealing and floor finish applications), you sand after the applications to:
1: remove any fuzz

2: prep the surface to accept the next coat (some do not need this, some do. it is specific to the finish being used)

3: remove anything that happened to get stuck in the coating of whatever. Bugs are a great part of nature but when finishing a floor, they can...well, they can really bug you by landing in the wet floor finish.

By the time you get to the final coat, there should be no need to sand, polish, or wax to remove any fuzz. It should all be well below the finish.


Ron 6519 has a very good point. Soft pine will be very blotchy if not treated properly. It sounds like he has a direction for a successful method and I do not so I will let him expand on his post.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

brenda o said:


> hmmm, how? and with what?


 Most stain companies carry a Wood Conditioner in their product line. It's on the shelf among the stains. Make sure you get the correct conditioner for the stain your using. As an example. Minwax carries two lines of stain. Oil and latex. You need to use the oil conditioner with the oil stain.
The idea of the conditioner is to equalize the stains penetration into the wood.
Follow the directions on the container for the proper use.
For a large area application, I would use a roller with at least a 3/8" nap.
Ron


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## brenda o (Sep 25, 2009)

*k, will do the sanding with the grain of the wood,*

which is really quite gorgeous now that i have some of it laid down and nailed in. just takes time..... 

I think I'll go with renting a sander. I just don't want it to "take off on me". I don't want to have it catch a high spot on the ends and have it rip or tear the wood. The ends have lined up pretty tight for the most part but i can see how a sander could "catch". But then again, the samller one in the pic in this "thread" looks more "my size" to work with. 

I will clean up the dust ( not with anything flammable and use the oil conditioner since i want to use oil base. For some reason, I have it in my head that it will preserve the wood better than latex. I have some scrap pieces and did my own samples for colors. Wow, what a variation between the board pieces even with the same stain. That must be the blotchy thing. See, keep learning from you guys Am i going to sand again after staining before i use the polyurethane? and sand again to remove "bugs" and probably my dog's hair and then another coat of poyurethne. So, thats three "toppings" then if I think it needs another coat, go again...

and i can use a roller to do the staining part. i would prefer to brush the poly though. ok, have a plan for this part now thanks again and i'll be back the pine really does look nice, i love the grain in it, it just needs to be a little darker


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

They have lambs wool applicators for this work. You want to use something that uniformly applies the stain but does not toss splatter like a roller. If you really like the roller option, you will need to mask the bottom 2 feet or so of the walls.
Follow the directions on both the wood conditioner and the stain to the letter if you want the job to look good. Have everything set up before hand so you can go through the various stages without unnecessary delay. The transition from conditioner to stain must be done timely or you will still get splothes. The removing of the excess stain and blending is also important. If you wait too long it will not look even.
You can use the same type of applicators with the poly. You will hand cut by the wall and use the applicators in the field. Light coats are better than heavy coats and be careful of puddles. You can't really go back to fix these once the floor is wet. Good light,close to the floor will be your friend.
Ron


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## roxksears (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi Brenda,
I'm glad to see another 'chick' who isn't afraid to jump in and DIY!

I have been renovating my 1957 home for the past 6 years and this fall took on refinishing an oak floor. It was in good shape (not gouges, humps, etc), but the finish was shot! I was quite fearful of this project because of the sanding part of it. Six yrs ago I rented a floor belt sander to do another floor and it about killed me. My buddy helped me but it was really brutal on his body too. (and I haven't even mentioned the ungodly amount of dust it kicked up)!

I just posted some photos http://www.diychatroom.com/members/roxksears-64928/albums/my-hardwood-floor-refinishing-project/

... and realized that continuing here will detract from your post so I've started a new one. Check it out for detailed info of my progress if you like: 
http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/my-hardwood-floor-refinishing-project-56329/


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## organick (Sep 4, 2009)

brenda o said:


> which is really quite gorgeous now that i have some of it laid down and nailed in. just takes time.....
> 
> I think I'll go with renting a sander. I just don't want it to "take off on me". I don't want to have it catch a high spot on the ends and have it rip or tear the wood. The ends have lined up pretty tight for the most part but i can see how a sander could "catch". But then again, the samller one in the pic in this "thread" looks more "my size" to work with.
> 
> ...



Just be aware that even a hand belt sander can do quite a number on wood if you don't keep it flat/level. If you you let it, it can sand a gauge into wood in a few seconds. Its not like a palm sander where you can just cruise along, you really need to be in control of it to keep it from causing dips. If you can rent a big floor sander ask the guys at the store to show you how to run it, they might even let you try it out so they can help you with it before you take it home.:thumbup:


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