# Lutron Maestro - light won't turn on?



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi there,

I tried to install this product in my old house, which has 2 wires only; black and white.

I attached the green wire from the Lutron to the white wire from the wall (I read that this product, although it says that a ground is required, can work without a ground if you connect the green to the neutral). I attached the two black wires from the Lutron to the black wire from the wall. Both of the connections are attached with twist caps.

I went to turn on the power in the breaker and the lights will not turn on. However, I can hear "clicks" in the sensor so I guess that is working? 

ANY help would be appreciated. I have been trying to figure this out for 2 hours now!

Oh, and yes, the light was working just fine with a regular switch.


----------



## daveb1 (Jan 15, 2010)

If the only existing wires in your box that housed the old switch are one black and one white then you do not have a neutral. You had a switch loop.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi Daveb1, thanks for replying. Does that mean that I cannot use this Lutron device? 

What I don't understand is that I hear the sensing switch going on and off (as I left the kitchen to come open my computer, I heard it click). So, it's not a problem with the sensor right?

The hot wire, if connected, should turn on the light no?


----------



## Fishbulb28 (Jul 8, 2016)

Can you post the model number of the dimmer? I cannot quite make it out on the photo. It doesn't look like one that will require a neutral connection so it may work for you. What kind of lights are you attempting to dim?

Also, be very careful and *gentle* with the premise wiring coming out of the box. The rubber and cloth insulation used at the time does not age well.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi Fishbulb, the model # is: MS-OPS2H-2-WH.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-M...S_Merch_Ship_Conf-_-pip_203415835__W235451402

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

If you connected both blacks to the wall black the switch is wired wrong.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi jim,

Thanks for writing. Should I do one wall black to one lutron black and wall "white" to other lutron black? And just leave the green dangling?


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

xiaobao12 said:


> Hi jim,
> 
> Thanks for writing. Should I do one wall black to one lutron black and wall "white" to other lutron black? And just leave the green dangling?


Yes. Most lutron mastro dimmers will work this way. If it's a switch it won't work.

Cheers!


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

It's an occupancy sensor. It's not going to work without a ground.

You can try connecting he green to the metal box, but if the box isn't grounded, it will not function properly.

While you can manually switch the device on/off about 30 seconds after you turn the power on, the sensor will not operate for about 2 minutes after power is turned on.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

supers05 said:


> Yes. Most lutron mastro dimmers will work this way. If it's a switch it won't work.
> 
> Cheers!


Thank you for responding.

"If it's a switch it won't work." - what do you mean by this? Does it contradict your prior sentence?


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Oso954 said:


> It's an occupancy sensor. It's not going to work without a ground.
> 
> You can try connecting he green to the metal box, but if the box isn't grounded, it will not function properly.
> 
> While you can manually switch the device on/off about 30 seconds after you turn the power on, the sensor will not operate for about 2 minutes after power is turned on.


Hi - the anecdoes in this thread show that it can work without a ground.

http://community.homedepot.com/howt...-Question-No-Ground-Available-9065000000006Lp


----------



## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

You appear to have a switch loop. A hot wire and a switched hot. No neutral.

The mfg prefers that the green wire is hooked to a ground. But it will also function, if hooked to a neutral. 

Since your white wire is not a neutral, your only hope is that the metal box is grounded.

Without either one, the sensor is not going to work, unless you pull new wire/cable between the light and sensor locations.


----------



## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

xiaobao12 said:


> Thank you for responding.
> 
> "If it's a switch it won't work." - what do you mean by this? Does it contradict your prior sentence?


Someone mentioned that it was a occupancy switch. So it won't work without the ground.

Lutron's dimmers do work without grounds or neutrals. Dimmers are not the same as switches. In lutron's case, their wireless dimmers always leak current through the load. 

Cheers!


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Thank you so much for your detailed explanation Oso. 

I am pretty positive there is no ground as this house is very old and out of the outlets I've replaced and the two light fixtures, none of them had ground wires.

Are you an electrician?


----------



## Erico (Oct 24, 2016)

xiaobao12 said:


> Thank you so much for your detailed explanation Oso.
> 
> I am pretty positive there is no ground as this house is very old and out of the outlets I've replaced and the two light fixtures, none of them had ground wires.
> 
> Are you an electrician?


Where are you located? I'm in Chicago and we don't see ground wires as everything is in metallic conduit which is grounded.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Erico said:


> Where are you located? I'm in Chicago and we don't see ground wires as everything is in metallic conduit which is grounded.


Erico, I am in Boston, where there are lots of old houses.


----------



## Erico (Oct 24, 2016)

xiaobao12 said:


> Erico, I am in Boston, where there are lots of old houses.


I'm not sure but I think Boston/Massachusetts has some of the same rules as us. All grounded conduit no romex.

Do you know if your outlets are grounded? Ever check with a plug/receptacle tester?

Either way:

Attach the hots individually to the wires in the box. It looks like old cloth wire and it is hard to tell which side is the hot and which side is the lead to the light.

But it doesn't matter. Just hook the wires up. The switch just opens and closes that circuit of two wires. Disregard the green. Either your box is grounded or it ain't. If the box is grounded, attaching the dimmer to the box will ground the switch. If not, it is what it is.

The directions on homer's website say no neutral required on this dimmer so you are good to go.

If I were you I would invest in a plug receptacle tester. $5 bucks-ish? You can check your outlets for ground out of curiosity and to make sure they are not reversed polarity if you change any outlets in the future. With that old cloth wire it is easy to mix the wires up. Also, get a circuit tester for like $13ish bucks. The one that is pen/maker size and has a green/red led light. Handy to have especially when it's hard to determine which is hot in those old wires.

Always strip and twist your wires well. Use the proper wire nuts. Loose connections cause fires.


----------



## xiaobao12 (Dec 28, 2016)

Erico said:


> I'm not sure but I think Boston/Massachusetts has some of the same rules as us. All grounded conduit no romex.
> 
> Do you know if your outlets are grounded? Ever check with a plug/receptacle tester?
> 
> ...


Thanks so much Erico. Just to be sure: The directions say you need a ground but people have been able to get it to work without a ground but instead connecting it to neutral. Right?

I already put back the old switch this afternoon. If there is a chance that the box is grounded, I may take another deep breath and try again tomorrow morning but it's a pain in the butt running down to the basement, shutting off the panel, and running back up, etc.

As for your recommendations: 

Is this a plug tester you meant? 

https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instr...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=44FEERVC5FSTE5K4YM80

and is this the circuit tester that you mentioned?

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-1AC-A1...82987380&sr=1-1&keywords=circuit+tester+fluke

Thanks so much for your advice!


----------



## Erico (Oct 24, 2016)

Also, I'm guessing the reason you have what appears to be a white and a black wire is the conduit behind the wall is flexible metallic cable that comes pre-wired with a black and a white.

When you have a switch leg drop down from a light fixture the white wire should be taped black to show it is a hot. But nobody does it.

Not unlike romex.

There may have been an old bare ground wire somewhere in there that may have broken offf. If the metallic cable is attached to the grounded house conduit system, it will be grounded.

We see a lot of this stuff fished through walls in these old buildings in Chicago. It's illegal, I think, in most cases but it's everywhere. We usually can't buy romex around here because it's not allowed in cook county.


----------



## Erico (Oct 24, 2016)

xiaobao12 said:


> Thanks so much Erico. Just to be sure: The directions say you need a ground but people have been able to get it to work without a ground but instead connecting it to neutral. Right?
> 
> I already put back the old switch this afternoon. If there is a chance that the box is grounded, I may take another deep breath and try again tomorrow morning but it's a pain in the butt running down to the basement, shutting off the panel, and running back up, etc.
> 
> ...


On third read, yeah you need to attach that green wire to the box and hope the box is grounded. My guess is it is.

It appears you have two ground wires on the dimmer. The bare One is probably soldered to the metal frame. I usually snip those here as the metal frame grounds itself when the switch screwed in to the grounded box. Or you can attach it.

The other green wire will need to be attached to the grounded box for your switch to operate. There may be attachment holes in the back of the box. I think a short number 8 by 32 machine screw will work. Or you can improvise and wrap the green wire on one of the switch attachment screws and sandwich it between the frame and the box. You could pre attach a (preferably green) wire in the box and then connect with wire nuts.

Normally the first ground is there on any electrical device just to protect people in the event a hot wire touches the metallic piece of an appliance or fixture. If ungrounded, the metallic portion becomes hot and waits for someone to come along and get a shock. Could be really bad if it's, say, an ungrounded stove or refrigerator. If the appliance is grounded, the breaker trips and says hey, we have a problem here. Obviously not as big a concern for a light switch as the metal parts are covered.

Why your switch needs a ground is above my pay grade. Obviously some work around to the neutral wire problem that most people will have. When I read "no neutral needed" I was like yayyy! Now I see you need a ground you should still be ok even though you don't have a wire handy.

These new fangled devices can be tricky and it always pays to read directions. A couple years ago we were finishing a kitchen and the customer wanted a dimmer on a three way after the sparky left. No problem I told him you can only dim one side/switch. So I pick up a dimmer. My brother is pulling his hair out not getting it to work. He keeps reading something about a "companion" dimmer. Wtf? Swearing up and down. This went on for a day. So I'm in homers again and I see the same dimmer but in a set with a "companion". Turns out this dimmer CAN dim on both ends but you need the companion dimmer for anything to work. Doh!

Re your choices for testers. Both will work. The $28 dollar tester might be more than you need. It is rated for higher voltage and, I think, closer to the box work. There are different levels (CAT 2 or 3 or 4 or?) of protection and restrictions on how close to the source/box you should be. If I remember correctly, the ones I use are rated for more than 25 feet from the service/box. Fine for simple homeowner tasks but don't go poking around in a breaker box unless you know what you are doing and have the right equipment.

Obviously the plug tester and non contact tester are pretty run of the mill. People get in trouble with multimeters and contact testers if not careful. My understanding is a multimeter can blow up in your face if not used properly or not rated properly. I have a multimeter that I really only use to test non energized floor heat wires for continuity. Haven't done much poking around in junction boxes. Definitely need to read up before poking around.

This is the non contact circuit tester I use

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-NCVT-1SEN/100661787


----------



## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Erico, wrapping the ground around the mounting screw to ground a device is not a valid method. Also the ground screws are 10-32, not 8-32.

What is your experience with electrical?


----------

