# Both signal lights quit at same time



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Look for the fuse.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

Hard pressed memory on this one, at one time if one bulb went out on a blinker none would work.
But I think that was back in the sixties and seventies maybe.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Steve2444 said:


> Hard pressed memory on this one, at one time if one bulb went out on a blinker none would work.
> But I think that was back in the sixties and seventies maybe.


Tail lights are always on the same fuse as the dash lights to let you know the tail lights are out.


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

Make sure you changed the right flasher? It should have two, one for the emergency flashers and a separate one for the turn signals. Do the 4-way flashers work? If so you can feel the flasher click when they're on. That can also confirm the bulbs and wiring is functional.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> Look for the fuse.


Right- but fuses are still good.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

iamrfixit said:


> Make sure you changed the right flasher? It should have two, one for the emergency flashers and a separate one for the turn signals. Do the 4-way flashers work? If so you can feel the flasher click when they're on. That can also confirm the bulbs and wiring is functional.


let me check, will get back to you here soon........


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Maybe you have lost ground to the body?


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

So, the box that holds the flasher has 2 relays/flasher thingies and 2 empty spots/ports. The round flasher that is currently there clicks when I push the emergency /hazard button you can even feel with your fingers that the flasher is clicking, and hear it as well. But the port that has embossed "T/S " for turn signal , I suppose, is totally empty, with not even wires behind it!

The other port indicates HR N, which should be Horn (?). That has a relay in it, Incidentally, my horn stopped working a year ago. So, Obviously, there is a mystery as to where is the flasher for the turn signal lights? 

I replaced it 11 years ago, but cant remember what I did. I think I replaced that 2 pronged flasher that works for the Haz lights. Is it possible that it doubles as both? If so, then the flasher is not the problem, could be this:





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www.carparts.com





Not sure what to do. Probably start changing parts, when one cannot figure things out.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Nealtw said:


> Maybe you have lost ground to the body?


Which ground? The main engine ground?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

papereater said:


> Which ground? The main engine ground?


The engine has rubber mounts, there is one to the body somewhere.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

papereater said:


> Which ground? The main engine ground?


The electrical system should be grounded. Try running a ground wire from the battery ground, to one of the grounds on one of the bulbs. That should let you know if it is a ground problem. Do the bulbs light but not flash? If so, probably not a ground issue.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

grounds appear OK. So measnwhile, I spent a while studying the shop manual, and it said to put a test lighht on the purple wire at the turn switch that mounts around the steering wheel, and ground. Test light lit up, and manual says I need a new turn signal switch! This was a bit of good detective work I figure! BUT, now I found out I have to yank the steering wheel! Scary, never done that. 

Meanwhile, I cannot find a turn/signal switch on amazon that fits my 1987 sunbird. Maybe ebay.........


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Either leave the nut on it or use a steering wheel puller.

If you take the nut off before breaking the wheel loose and yank, you are likely to break your nose or knock a tooth out.


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

papereater said:


> grounds appear OK. So measnwhile, I spent a while studying the shop manual, and it said to put a test lighht on the purple wire at the turn switch that mounts around the steering wheel, and ground. Test light lit up, and manual says I need a new turn signal switch! This was a bit of good detective work I figure! BUT, now I found out I have to yank the steering wheel! Scary, never done that.
> 
> Meanwhile, I cannot find a turn/signal switch on amazon that fits my 1987 sunbird. Maybe ebay.........


Might have to take a chance of a used one. Car part.com or any salvage yard with a nationwide connection.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

It may not have them, but if it is equipped with SRS or air bags, there are specific ways of going about disarming them so you don't blow your head into the back seat.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

papereater said:


> grounds appear OK. So measnwhile, I spent a while studying the shop manual, and it said to put a test lighht on the purple wire at the turn switch that mounts around the steering wheel, and ground. Test light lit up, and manual says I need a new turn signal switch! This was a bit of good detective work I figure! BUT, now I found out I have to yank the steering wheel! Scary, never done that.
> 
> Meanwhile, I cannot find a turn/signal switch on amazon that fits my 1987 sunbird. Maybe ebay.........


Rockauto.

Looks like fun.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Thanks so much, people. This is turning out to be a not so fun project, which has to be done, period. I dont have an airbag. Anyway, thanks, and i will let yous know what happens!


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oso954 said:


> Either leave the nut on it or use a steering wheel puller.
> 
> If you take the nut off before breaking the wheel loose and yank, you are likely to break your nose or knock a tooth out.


Good tip.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Oh- wondering, since my steering wheel is off kilter, about 1/8 of a turn too far clockwise, when I put it back and tighten, can I put it on straight> I mean, isnt there a kind of splined shaft that would allow me to do that?


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Mark the wheel and the shaft before you take it off. When replacing it, you can offset it the number of teeth you think you need.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

papereater said:


> Oh- wondering, since my steering wheel is off kilter, about 1/8 of a turn too far clockwise, when I put it back and tighten, can I put it on straight> I mean, isnt there a kind of splined shaft that would allow me to do that?


As I remember it, the steering wheel being off center is correctable during a wheel alignment.
Either your out of alignment, or the last putz didn't lock the wheel in when doing the alignment.

I don't know about correcting it by reinstalling the S wheel though.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

For some reason I didn't see Chandler48's reply, probably because it was on the next page ?


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Good to know, members. So, update- I removed/loosened the nut, but the wheel wone come off for beans. Time to pull out the puller.......

(I had it aligned years ago, not sure what the guy did, but I doubt he messed with this wheel. )


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

papereater said:


> Good to know, members. So, update- I removed/loosened the nut, but the wheel wone come off for beans. Time to pull out the puller.......
> 
> (I had it aligned years ago, not sure what the guy did, but I doubt he messed with this wheel. )


The good ones lock the steering wheel at center and adjust to that, if not it can end up wonky.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

papereater said:


> Good to know, members. So, update- I removed/loosened the nut, but the wheel wone come off for beans. Time to pull out the puller.......
> 
> (I had it aligned years ago, not sure what the guy did, but I doubt he messed with this wheel. )


There was a spreader/clamp type thing that they would put between the wheel and the seat to hold the wheel centered while they did the alignment.


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

Most likely the shaft and wheel will have one missing spline so the wheel only fit one way, the steering wheel angle must be corrected with tie rod adjustments during alignment. 

Those years of GM vehicles had a spring loaded index ring to lock the steering when the key is off. You have to press it in and remove the snap ring. Takes a special compressing tool, not too expensive back then, might be hard to find one today. You can't really do it without having the tool or making something to push the plate inward. I really hated dealing with those, even with the tool. 

I've pulled many steering wheels by just loosening the nut. Then I get my knees up under the bottom of the wheel, apply leverage to the bottom at the same time pulling at the top. Sometimes that's enough, if not use one hand (or have a helper) tap the shaft and nut with a hammer and the wheel will pop off. Keep the nut on a few threads, that is what keeps you from hitting yourself in the face, lol.

I'd look long and hard for a second flasher up under the dash somewhere hanging loose. Can't remember any vehicles of that vintage that used a single flasher for both turn signals and 4-way flashers. One flasher was often not on the fuse panel despite seeming to have a dedicated space. It was sometimes done that way from the factory, I have no idea why.


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

Before tearing into the steering column, check the connector mounted on the steering column under the dash. Unplug it, plug it back in and test. You want to test everything possible before getting into the column.



iamrfixit said:


> Takes a special compressing tool, not too expensive back then, might be hard to find one today.


*THE FOLLOWING IS BASED ON A VEHICLE WITHOUT AN AIR BAR.
1. *Remove the horn trim (probably 7mm).
*2. *Use a wheel puller to remove the steering wheel.
*3.* There is a plastic cover snapped on the lock plate. If the cover is metal, there will be 3 phillips-head screws holding it to the lock plate. Remove the cover.
Lock Plate (one version)







Steering Wheel Lock Plate Compressor compresses the steering wheel lock plate to remove or install the snap ring.
Needed for accessing the turn signal switch and S.I.R. modules on current GM vehicles.
Also works on older GM, AMC, and Chrysler vehicles with tilt or conventional steering columns.
Lock Plate Compressor





​*4.* Use the Lock Plate Compressor to give you room to use an ice pick and remove the ring up onto the bell end of the Lock Plate Compressor shaft (makes it *much *easier to reinstall the ring during reassembly).
*Note:* One threaded shaft is for SAE threads on steering column, the other for metric threads (by '87 it's most likely metric). Finger tighten only; the wrong one will cross thread the threads on the steering column!​*Note: *Do not over-tighten the lock-plate compressor or you can deform the lock plate.​*5.* Release tension on the lock plate and remove the Lock Plate Compressor.
*6.* Remove the cancel cam (may be a different color). There may be a loose spring in the tube that sticks up thru the steering wheel.
Cancel cam





​*7.* Remove the turn signal lever from the switch assembly. 
*8.* Remove the three screws attaching the switch assembly to the steering column.
*9.* Attach a pull string to the the plug connector under the dash and work the wires back through the housing.

Good luck!


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

The flasher thing remains a mystery as there is only one there- hazard flasher. I think it has to double as a signal flasher as well(?), Even the shop manual shows an empty port for another flasher/relay. Wierd. 

The other relay is for the horn, and turns out my horn wasnt working for a year, and I stumbled upon this by accident- ordered a new relay and now the horn works!! I can honk at the dangerous reckless drivers out there now.

But I (we?) cant celebrate too early as people, I installed a new turn signal switch and nothing, no worky signal lights. Yes, I was so proud of myself having rempoved the steering wheel, and all (withh the guidance of members here), but now I am back to square 1.

Without the signal lights working I may have to sell my car, after 34 years or ownership. What else could it be, people?


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

papereater said:


> The flasher thing remains a mystery as there is only one there- hazard flasher. I think it has to double as a signal flasher as well(?), Even the shop manual shows an empty port for another flasher/relay. Wierd.
> 
> The other relay is for the horn, and turns out my horn wasnt working for a year, and I stumbled upon this by accident- ordered a new relay and now the horn works!! I can honk at the dangerous reckless drivers out there now.
> 
> ...


There must be a hidden flasher somewhere....you need a wiring schematic.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Dash lights go out with tail lights, if it not a fuse, blicker switch then look at the head light switch as that turns on the dash lights.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

Ok, did some investigating. They make two parts for your car so it must be there somewhere. Also, this is where it's supposed to be. Check again.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

As the 1986 sunbird is a J-body platform, I looked up the 1986 flasher location on another J-body (celebrity)
Should be in the same location as they moved down the same assembly line.
Here is a link to the celebrities flasher location with Picture.





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www.justanswer.com





Note... the picture is shown from the front of the car.
So it's on the left side of the steering wheel as Your sitting in the car.


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Wow, I was looking in the wrong place al the time! I will look again, on the RIGHT side of the steering column, asap. Looking like I did all he work replacing the switch for nothing.......


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

papereater said:


> Wow, I was looking in the wrong place al the time! I will look again, on the RIGHT side of the steering column, asap. Looking like I did all he work replacing the switch for nothing.......


No it's on the left side as you are sitting in the car, the pic shows from the front bumper of the car.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

Steve2444 said:


> No it's on the left side as you are sitting in the car, the pic shows from the front bumper of the car.


How do you know it's the left side, from your link I can't tell where the column is? Also, the OP already said that was the emergency flasher.

One thing is for sure, they sell two flashers so it there somewhere.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

Matt1963 said:


> How do you know it's the left side, from your link I can't tell where the column is? Also, the OP already said that was the emergency flasher.
> 
> One thing is for sure, they sell two flashers so it there somewhere.


This diagram points to front of car.









Screenshot


Captured with Lightshot




prnt.sc






That and the aldl is near the colunm on those J bodies, and you can see the cut out for the glove box and the cut out for the colunm.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

Just remembered to go check my old auto books, and I have th chiltons auto repair manual 1980-1987.
Going to do some reading.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

I also read one thread where a guy was having issues with his emergency flasher switch. He claimed it affected his turn signals. He pushed the switch on and off 6 to 8 times and then his turn signal started working.


Could be but I still am betting on the turn signal flasher.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

What a blast from the past, unfortunately Chiltons does not cover the wiring harness.

Other cars to look up that are also "J" bodies are ...
Cavalier, Firenza,Skyhawk, Cimarron all 1987 J-bodies.
The wire harness and flasher location should be the same as the are the same car with different name plates, moldings fenders etc.


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## Steve2444 (Sep 28, 2020)

Ok, not a J body car but here is where GM hid the flasher on a 1987 Olds Calais



https://www.fixya.com/cars/t7849109-turn_signal_flashers_located


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Steve and Matt,

Thanks for so much work- I understand the conflicting diagrams and posts. My car , on left of steering column has a convenience center, with only one hazard flasher, and one horn relay. The other "port" which can accomodate another 2 prong flasher has NO wires behind it. So bizzare. And, my shop manual which is what a GM mech would have had 30 years ago shows that block with one port empty. Why would they show a diagram in a GM shop manual with a vacant/empty port? AND that port has embossed in it "turn flasher". 

I am still searching way up in there, for another flasher, with a light. On the right side of the steering column.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

papereater said:


> Steve and Matt,
> 
> Thanks for so much work- I understand the conflicting diagrams and posts. My car , on left of steering column has a convenience center, with only one hazard flasher, and one horn relay. The other "port" which can accomodate another 2 prong flasher has NO wires behind it. So bizzare. And, my shop manual which is what a GM mech would have had 30 years ago shows that block with one port empty. Why would they show a diagram in a GM shop manual with a vacant/empty port? AND that port has embossed in it "turn flasher".
> 
> I am still searching way up in there, for another flasher, with a light. On the right side of the steering column.


Yes, that's strange.

Have you used the hazard switch recently?


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

I found it!!! It was on the Right side of the steering column! Burried behind the ac control switches. Man, what a waste of me changing out the turn switch for nothing. I swapped out the flasher with the functioning haz flasher just to see if the turn lights work and they do now work! Whew. 

The irony is that I followed the troubleshooting guide in the shop manual and it indicated to change out the switch, made no mention of the flasher. Anyway, thanks to all here who saw me through this, much appreciated!! I dont have to sell the car now (a sad day for my wife).


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## GrayHair (Apr 9, 2015)

👍 Thanks for posting your resolution! It might help someone else.


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## Matt1963 (5 mo ago)

papereater said:


> I found it!!! It was on the Right side of the steering column! Burried behind the ac control switches. Man, what a waste of me changing out the turn switch for nothing. I swapped out the flasher with the functioning haz flasher just to see if the turn lights work and they do now work! Whew.
> 
> The irony is that I followed the troubleshooting guide in the shop manual and it indicated to change out the switch, made no mention of the flasher. Anyway, thanks to all here who saw me through this, much appreciated!! I dont have to sell the car now (a sad day for my wife).


Okay, what I read was correct. Glad you found it and good job for being persistent.

Enjoy your car....


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## papereater (Sep 16, 2016)

Matt1963 said:


> Okay, what I read was correct. Glad you found it and good job for being persistent.
> 
> Enjoy your car....


Right! Thanks!


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