# Power problems on second floor, first floor is fine



## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

Starting a couple of months ago, we started getting flickering lights and some power drops upstairs (like a fan would suddenly slow down while the lights flickered); save for one sometimes flickering light on the first floor, all of these problems seem confined to the second floor. We eventually called an electrician, who tightened up some loose connections in our circuit box, and made sure there were no fire hazards and all the power was coming through within accepted parameters (he couldn't check all the outlets, though, as many of these are behind large pieces of furniture, bookcases, etc.). After this, things actually got worse, and not only did we continue to have flickering and power drops, but sometimes the drops would be complete and we would totally lose power on the second floor (but never on the first floor; such outages never occurred before in all the time I've lived here). He came out again, at no charge, and just made sure everything was tightened, checked the meter box, which he said was in perfect condition, and then had us put on as many lights, etc. as we could so he could see an outage in action. Unfortunately for us, everything stayed on and we had no problems--and this joyous condition continued for three full days. This miracle, however, ended a couple of days ago and we are back to having fluctuations and outages on the second floor (each outage now seeming to last longer and longer; note, when these outages happen, we usually never have to flip the breaker, the power usually just comes back on its own). His suggestion was to come back and inspect and replace all the outlets, and maybe to put each of the upstairs bedrooms on separate circuits (right now the whole upstairs is on one breaker; the house was built in the 80's). What do you think? Our problems seem confined to the second floor and usually only happen at night and early in the morning (during the day, things are usually totally fine; save for about four lights, we roughly have on the same amount of electrical devices during the day as we do at night--and actually we use the washer/dryer during the day). Sometimes, though not always, the power upstairs is knocked out if somebody uses the microwave on the first floor (though sometimes it goes out without anybody doing anything on the first floor, and many times in the middle of the night, when there is only a tiny led nightlight on in the first floor; when we use the microwave during the day, there never is a problem). I am totally perplexed by all this, as is our electrician. Any ideas as to what the problem could be? Should I take his advice and let him examine all the outlets, or would it be better just to focus on the ones upstairs (the first floor seems to immune to this, though one single light fixture down there does flicker from time to time). The power company is coming out today to make sure things are okay on their end. Could it be that we are being effected by the power needs of our neighbors. Just wondering why all these problems seem to mostly happen at night when ppl are home from work, or in the early morning, when they are getting ready for work (but, then again, why would it only cause outages on the second floor). Confused and frustrated here. Any advice would be appreciated! )

Rob


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

You have a loose connection somewhere. It could be at the weather head, panel, j-box, outlet box, somewhere. If it only happens on the second floor and in no other circuit in the home safe bet is a connection on that circuit is loose. Its a good idea this be corrected ASAP considering its a major fire hazard.


BTW, I would find another electrician. Adding new circuit or replacing all the outlets will not fix a loose connection. Might find it in the process but it wont fix the actual problem.


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

Any qualified electrician should be able to diagnose this, IF, and that's a big IF, the problem is present when he comes to troubleshoot. Finding these intermittent problems is virtually impossible, if the system is not exhibiting trouble when the electrician is present. I recommend the following:

1) Try to find an electrical company that can have someone respond very quickly the next time this happens.

2) Do your part. That is, document EVERYTHING you can about the circumstances when this happens (keep a log). When does it start? How long does it last? What is running when it happens? What happens (flickering, no power at all)? Where EXACTLY in the house does it happen (just receptacles, just lights, everything)? Who is home when it happens. By doing this, you may well find the pattern that allows an electrician to be onsite when it occurs.

Sorry you are frustrated. I understand.

Mark


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## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

Just as an update, I was just on the phone to an electrician I had contacted via Thumbtack. He said he had encountered this problem before and the solution was to have the power company come out and "recharge" and tighten the lines. Hopefully this will work.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

Rodents ?


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

rarken1 said:


> Just as an update, I was just on the phone to an electrician I had contacted via Thumbtack. He said he had encountered this problem before and the solution was to have the power company come out and "recharge" and tighten the lines. Hopefully this will work.


Could be that. 

Weird though

You have first floor on one phase and second floor on the other? 

:- )


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You need to determine if this problem is happening on one or more circuits. If it is only one circuit the problem is not likely the POCO fault. It is likely a loose connection on that one circuit somewhere.
You are probably going to need to move those large pieces of furniture to get at the blocked receptacles.

A very common source of this issue is back stabbed receptacles. Those are receptacle where the connections are made by sticking the wires in small holes on the back and not under the screws.


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## busman (Nov 7, 2008)

joed said:


> You need to determine if this problem is happening on one or more circuits. If it is only one circuit the problem is not likely the POCO fault. It is likely a loose connection on that one circuit somewhere.
> You are probably going to need to move those large pieces of furniture to get at the blocked receptacles.
> 
> A very common source of this issue is back stabbed receptacles. Those are receptacle where the connections are made by sticking the wires in small holes on the back and not under the screws.


I hate to say it, but you are all just stabbing in the dark with this. Yes, it is almost certainly an intermittent connection. That does not mean a loose connection or a back-stab. Had one just yesterday where there was in intermittent connection inside a 60A CH circuit breaker in a split bus panel that would take out half of the lower section intermittently (all connections were tight). And, yes, this can be a risk of fire, but taking guesses won't help that. The reality is what I said: Do your best to have a qualified electrician with troubleshooting skills evaluate this when the problem is actively occurring AND document EVERYTHING you can about the circumstances under which it happens.

Mark


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## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

Hopefully the power company ppl, who should be coming today, will be able to fix something. If not, should I get an electrician to focus on the upstairs connections (since only the upstairs has outages)? If there is a loose connection in, let's say, a junction box or some wire corrosion, can he/she detect this by examining all the outlets?


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

since power is on... turn off/on the circuit breakers one at a time and turn off what goes off when that second floor goes out and see if the second floor is on 1 or more circuits..

the utility will check for connection at their lines, and that would be it.

if it is one circuit, then it is probably one circuit in the house.

if it is 2 or more circuits it could be the phase at the utility or in your panel

If it is two or more circuits you would check to see if it is the same phase.

a is next to a
b is next to b
a and b will alternate going down the panel board (if you have a normal newer panel board)
so if a,a,a is out or b,b,b then it's a phase or leg..

only one breaker then one circuit in house


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## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

ritelec said:


> since power is on... turn off/on the circuit breakers one at a time and turn off what goes off when that second floor goes out and see if the second floor is on 1 or more circuits.."
> 
> 
> Well, the whole second floor is connected to one circuit breaker. Flipping this off, takes off power to the entire floor (all three bedrooms, the bathroom and the hallway light). All the other breakers are for the first floor or the big machines in the basement. The electrician who came out before examined all the breakers and said they all looked good (and he tightened some loose connections). Since then, though, problems have only gotten worse, and instead of just flickering and fluctuations, we have full on power outages on the second floor.
> ...


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

rarken1 said:


> should I get an electrician to focus on the upstairs connections (since only the upstairs has outages)? If there is a loose connection in, let's say, a junction box or some wire corrosion, can he/she detect this by examining all the outlets?


maybe maybe not... how many circuits are involved needs to be determined...

could be in a box in the basement, the first flr, or second... maybe a box in the attic..

maybe no box..
maybe a screw or nail through the cable... maybe rodents nibbling, maybe spooks.


whats you're wiring method...

too many unknowns at the moment


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

rarken1 said:


> ritelec said:
> 
> 
> > since power is on... turn off/on the circuit breakers one at a time and turn off what goes off when that second floor goes out and see if the second floor is on 1 or more circuits.."
> ...


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

The first thing I would do if all the problems are on 1 circuit is replace the breaker.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

The power company is only going to test their stuff down to your meter or main breaker. If it is on their side, they will fix it. Otherwise they tell you it's your problem. Because it is only on the second floor, my guess is it is your problem.

If your problem is a loose connection, the electrician potentially needs to look at every connection point on the circuit(s) that are affected. This means every receptacle, switch, light fixture, junction box all the way to the panel. Depending on how your house is wired, that could include points anywhere from the basement to the attic.

However, that just takes care of the loose connection possibility, it doesn't find broken or chewed wires or other potential sources of your problem.

Don't try limiting the electricians work scope. That will often cost you money in the long run. Describe your problem as completely as you can, answer any question that he asks to the best of your ability, and let him go to work. Any good electrician will try to narrow the problem down as soon as possible, using his training, tools, experience, gut instinct, etc. He will usually find the problem for you much quicker by following his own nose, than any path of your choosing.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

When I said rodents I was thinking Guinea pigs not mice. 
:- ) 
Either way. Doubt they would eat thru metal but was throwing it out there


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

My bet is on the bedroom circuit, however if you notice absolutely no problem on any other circuit in the home its a safe bet its not the POCO. Either way having them out is a good idea. 

As others have said back stabbed outlets are usually notorious for this, and a real possibility when they are "daisy chained", that is all the down stream loads feed through the outlet itself.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Since we now know it all on one circuit, it is safe to assume that it is not the POCO issue. 
Even with the power currently on some tests can be done to determine how the circuit is routed. By separating the circuit while it is working the circuit route can be mapped. This will make tracing the issue much easier when the power goes out. By doing this, when the power goes out next time you can start at the beginning and work outwards until you find the break.
If power is out right at the beginning of the circuit then problem could be in the main panel.


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## ritelec (Aug 30, 2009)

joed said:


> Since we now know it all on one circuit, it is safe to assume that it is not the POCO issue.
> Even with the power currently on some tests can be done to determine how the circuit is routed. By separating the circuit while it is working the circuit route can be mapped. This will make tracing the issue much easier when the power goes out. By doing this, when the power goes out next time you can start at the beginning and work outwards until you find the break.
> If power is out right at the beginning of the circuit then problem could be in the main panel.


also, check in the panel.. it very well be one circuit with one wire leaving the panel, but it also may be two or more wires under the screw of the breaker or pigtail..........................

Guess work..................

(I know he said he had an electrician in but doesn't mean it wasn't or still is that way)(Just throwing it out there)

Guess work..................

I doubt suggestions will help as I'm not sure the op is able to open any boxes or would know what he is looking at...........


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## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

Thanks for all the help and advice, guys! Helps to be informed about such matters when I talk to the electrician about this. Will pass along the ideas and hopefully I can get this finally sorted out.


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## rarken1 (May 15, 2015)

An interesting development here. Yesterday I had a chance to speak to my next door neighbors and they say that they've been having pretty much the same problems (flickering and fluctuations but not outages, though). We live in adjoining town homes and share a wall together. Still waiting for the power company to show up, but will call them and let them know about this.


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## Jump-start (Sep 26, 2012)

rarken1 said:


> An interesting development here. Yesterday I had a chance to speak to my next door neighbors and they say that they've been having pretty much the same problems (flickering and fluctuations but not outages, though). We live in adjoining town homes and share a wall together. Still waiting for the power company to show up, but will call them and let them know about this.


Could be a loose neutral or a loose hot from the POCO.


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