# can termites live in Southern CA attic space?



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Why are you worried about them surviving vs. making sure they don't get up there in the first place? If they are all the way up there...you have a host of issues from below already.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

Termites, when exposed to heat over 100* and under 25* will die within minutes. However, when was the last time you saw termites running around?

Termites living in tunnels, burrows, and inside the wood they are destroying. That helps insulate them from the high heat or cold. 

When the temps get too high or low, they tend to slow their activity. In the winter, they really limit their activity and in areas where temps are significantly below freezing for extended periods, they retreat to underground burrows below the frost line.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

If you are worried about drywood termites in the attic, I’d hire a termite inspector. Most people can’t tell the difference between sawdust and termite poop. Nor will they spot the pinholes that are the exit points for it.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

jaykim said:


> I live in a 2 story townhouse in Los Angeles area.
> 
> I learned on some web pages that termites die if they are in temperature above 120F for more than 30 minutes or so. My roof is blackish shingles, and during the summer when the temperature goes above 100F, I think the attic area under the roof may exceed 120F. The attic is about 3 feet high and has insulation materials on the attic bottom above the ceiling. There are two vents of about 6"x24" underneath the roof on both sides of the house. So, I think there is not much air flowing inside.
> 
> ...


What @Oso954 said. What leads you to think there's an issue?

Okay, up on the public service soap box, so you might already know this, so bear with me. This is for others . . . . 

I do know that dry wood termites are all over here in the Land O'La La; they usually show themselves by leaving deposits of "pellets" near holes in the wood where they're nesting. You might also see the winged adults getting ready to fly and make whoopee and start new colonies, which usually happens after it rains, like it just did.

They're very different from the subterranean termites you'll find "back east" that live in HUGE colonies underground, then go after wood at or near ground level.

Dry wood termites usually don't destroy structures the way subterranean types can. (Ohh, baybay, want my mommy!) They love to go after things like fascia boards, molding and the trim around windows. Bad but not apocalyptic.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

@jaykim, if you think you caught some winged termites, maybe show us a picture?


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you DoomDave, Oso954, ktownskier, Windows on Wash all for the good comments.

The reason I asked this question is to see if I need to treat the attic for termite prevention with Boracare. If the condition in So Cal is so unfavorable for termite to live in the attic due to hot temperature in the summer, it would be unnecessary to treat the attic for termites. I am not living in the coastal area, so the temp goes up pretty high in the summer sometimes.

Last time, l went up first time in years to the attic myself and checked if there were any termite damages. As far as I saw, I did not any extensive termite damage, to my relief. Before I went up, I was kind of concerned and worried. I know I am not an expert on termites at all, but I have been dealing and treating termite myself in the garage and inside the wall. So, I can see if there is any sizable damages or droppings.

Is the termite prevalent or hardly occurring in the hot attic area in So Cal, not coastal area? Am I asking too generalized a question?

Thank you very much.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

jaykim said:


> Thank you DoomDave, Oso954, ktownskier, Windows on Wash all for the good comments.
> 
> The reason I asked this question is to see if I need to treat the attic for termite prevention with Boracare. If the condition in So Cal is so unfavorable for termite to live in the attic due to hot temperature in the summer, it would be unnecessary to treat the attic for termites. I am not living in the coastal area, so the temp goes up pretty high in the summer sometimes.
> 
> ...


If you're not sure, have an inspection, if it's not exorbitantly costly. 

See if you have them.

Might not hurt to just assume you do and treat, especially if the last treatment was a while ago, or at an unknown time.

Termites are a part of life here, in the land of La La, like earthquakes, high housing costs, and palm trees.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

It may not be relevant to your situation, but termites here in the South will fly into a structure and chew wood. HOWEVER, they must return to the ground each night to replenish their water supply. THAT is where we get them. Ground treatment around the perimeter of a house usually takes care of them after the first chewing cycle.


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you DoomsDave and chandler48 very much for the comment.

I have lived in my townhouse for 25 years and have not treated at all(knock on wood). I went up there first time in 25 years to check. That is why I am asking this question. If it has been ok for the last 25 years, I am thinking that the treatment may not be necessary because it is not an habitable environment for the termite. It is not easy to go up there due to insulation materials, walking on joists, and small space.

Thank you very much.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

JAYKEM.....This is probably not much help for you except for a generality.

My son lives in very coastal SoCal.

According to his experience in his area, there are just flying drywood termites.

When building or maintaining structures, I know of no known effective trearment to deter termites (apart from materials like hardiboard etc.)

If hit with termites, the termite services litterally evacuate the home for several days, cover it with tarps, and pump in a gas. It is a regular and regulated termite service called "tenting". Cost's vary with the structure, but are only 3-5-10 thousand....not as expensive as it might first sound.

For the inland high desert, I have no experience, but I'm interested in what you find out. 

I would think any termite service might freely advise you.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

jaykim said:


> Thank you DoomsDave and chandler48 very much for the comment.
> 
> I have lived in my townhouse for 25 years and have not treated at all(knock on wood). I went up there first time in 25 years to check. That is why I am asking this question. If it has been ok for the last 25 years, I am thinking that the treatment may not be necessary because it is not an habitable environment for the termite. It is not easy to go up there due to insulation materials, walking on joists, and small space.
> 
> Thank you very much.


Hain't treated in 25 years?

Dang, take off yore shews, get her inspected, sorry my bad Larry the Cable Guy.


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you MTN REMODEL LLC, DoomsDave very much for the comment.

I happened to talk with my neighbor yesterday. He lives in a separate building about 30 feet away and said his attic did not have any termite damage at all for the past 26 years. The building has almost the same structure and shape as mine. He said maybe the attic area is too hot for the termite to live. 

But, still, I would be more comfortable treating the attic area just in case. 

Thank you.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

jaykim said:


> Thank you MTN REMODEL LLC, DoomsDave very much for the comment.
> 
> I happened to talk with my neighbor yesterday. He lives in a separate building about 30 feet away and said his attic did not have any termite damage at all for the past 26 years. The building has almost the same structure and shape as mine. He said maybe the attic area is too hot for the termite to live.
> 
> ...


You're welcome, and looking won't hurt, if you can do it without spending oodles of money.

But, your neighbor's theory sounds plausible, too. No termites in my hot-assed attic, either.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

chandler48 said:


> It may not be relevant to your situation, but termites here in the South will fly into a structure and chew wood. HOWEVER, they must return to the ground each night to replenish their water supply. THAT is where we get them. Ground treatment around the perimeter of a house usually takes care of them after the first chewing cycle.


Great point, and new soapbox:

Dry wood termites are very different. They live in much smaller colonies. You treat the wood they're nesting in. Sometimes that's spraying, sometimes, it's "tenting" the whole structure. 

Subterranean types cause much worse damage. Really bad. We have them here, too, though they're a lot less common than "back east." An entomologist told me they need moisture in the ground to be happy. 

Oomph, off soapbox. Hope you don't have any termites! :vs_cool:


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you Doomsdave for the comment.

You live in the coastal area(like Huntington Beach, Seal Beach, Long Beach, Santa Monica or El Segundo area?) , and that means the temperature in your area is cooler than the basin area, not just the inland. And do you not have termite in the attic? That means it is highly likely that the attic in southern California is not a good place for the termite to live because of hot temperature in summer.

Thank you.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Here’s an LA times article on termites.
https://www.latimes.com/la-termite-report991017a-story.html

Pay particular attention to what it says about drywood termites.

Here’s another article from epestsupply.
http://www.epestsupply.com/drywood_termites.php#.XfAKMMqIahA

Drywood termites can and do survive in some very hot attics because they are deep in the wood. And, they will often locate in the ceiling joists where the wood is cooler because of the air conditioned space immediately below.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

jaykim said:


> Thank you Doomsdave for the comment.
> 
> You live in the coastal area(like Huntington Beach, Seal Beach, Long Beach, Santa Monica or El Segundo area?) , and that means the temperature in your area is cooler than the basin area, not just the inland. And do you not have termite in the attic? That means it is highly likely that the attic in southern California is not a good place for the termite to live because of hot temperature in summer.
> 
> Thank you.


I'm in the coastal belt, but not at the beach!

It gets hot where I'm at.

Sorry to shout but the coastal area is big and broad, in many places. 

Note Oso's piece, too. Don't assume you don't have termites. 

A timely admonition, though the Devil gets into me . . . :vs_cool:


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

I lived in Socal (Fullerton) for 36 yrs. and the house had a flat hot mop roof. I re-roofed it three times while there. One time it had extensive damage to the roof decking from termites. No attic, roof deck and ceiling lids were on the same joists. Must have been pretty hot in that void.

They got up there from a planter box that butted up against the T1-11 plywood siding on front of the house. Ate up the 2X10 facia board and a large helping of the roof deck.

I fixed all that and treated the perimeter. When I moved 8 years later, it cost 4K to fix the termite damage before escrow would close. It was mostly facia boards although one huge beam was involved, although it wasn't structural. Termites love Socal.


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you Oso954 for the two good articles. 

I read them for more understanding. As you mentioned, I am especially concerned about the ceiling joists at the bottom and the floor board in the attic. They are covered by fluffy insulation materials(I was told by my next town house building neighbor that they are not asbestos because they had theirs inspected, but I am not sure 100% since my town house was built in 1977) and it is hard to see without moving the messy materials. And it is quite difficult to move around up in the attic from joist to joist in duck walk with about 3 feet height.

I want to spray all the wood in the attic with Bora Care for prevention, and the insulation materials is a very big problem. 


Thank you DoomsDave for the comment. I want to go up to the attic again and double check, at least once a year.


Thank you surferdude2 for the comment, especially for the new construction terminology. Fullerton is not far from where I live. Can I ask 2 questions? 

1. What is the a large helping of the roof deck?
2. When the termite ate the fascia boards, can you see the damage from the outside when it starts or does the termite start eating from the inside so it is not visible from the outside?

I wish that when they built houses, they had treated all the wood for permanent protection from termite, esp those structural and hidden wood.

Thank you very much.


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

jaykim said:


> Thank you surferdude2 for the comment, especially for the new construction terminology. Fullerton is not far from where I live. Can I ask 2 questions?
> 
> 1. What is the a large helping of the roof deck?
> 2. When the termite ate the fascia boards, can you see the damage from the outside when it starts or does the termite start eating from the inside so it is not visible from the outside?
> ...


1. I had to replace two 4X8 panels of the plywood deck

2. It's rarely ever visible from the outside, especially on facia boards. Termite will eat all of the wood but the paint will stay to conceal the damage. The test is to use a dull ended probe and go along tapping it sharply into the some likely area and listen for a changing sound it may produce... sometimes it will even punch right on through and expose the damage.

ps. Often a favorite point of entry is often the cold joint around the toilet vent stack and into that wall interior. Any pipe coming through the slab and into a wall interior or any crack in the slab that runs under a wall will be a potential entry point of course.

Regards, SD2


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

You probably will not spot Drywood termites by damage until real late in the game. If anything, you will spot it by their droppings, which look similar to saw dust. Clean away the "sawdust". If it reappears, it's most likely termites.

The holes that they use to push the droppings out of the nest are called kick holes. They are about 1mm in diameter and may be closed by the last few pellets they were pushing out. Unless you have learned what they look like and are really close, you won't see them. If an untrained eye happens to see a kick hole, they are likely to overlook them as a fly speck or some discolored spot.

Btw if your insulation is fluffy I wouldn't worry about asbestos. The most common asbestos source in ceiling insulation was vermiculite, especially from a couple specific mines. Vermiculite is a granular loose fill. It isn't "fluffy".


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

As a side note, I had carpenter ants in my present home. Their droppings are similar to dry wood termite ones. Mine in particular had a somewhat shiny amber color, resembling the color of pine sap.

They're often the easiest pest to fight off. They establish a colony inside some of your wood structure but, like the subterranean termite, they must return to the soil to get their moisture to survive. Fortunately they go back the way the came in and that is often on the outside surface of the house where you can easily see their activity.


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you very much surferdude2 for the reply and additional comments.
I will use a long rod and tap the fascia boards to see if I can feel or hear the difference. I think the water and sewer pipes are inside the drywall and go into the slab, so it is kind of hard to see the crack in the slab. I bought 2 weeks ago a 5.5mm wireless endoscope to look around and inside the drywall for the termites. I hope I can detect the termite if any inside the drywall with this. I hope you can eliminate the new pest problem easily.

Thank you Oso954 very much for the comment. 

Last spring, my family (they have young eyes) found a kick hole and a few droppings on the 1st floor drywall, and I treated myself using Spectracide Terminate 16-oz Termite Killer by drilling holes of 3/32" along the both sides of the stud from the top to bottom at every 12" or so and by shooting the spray into the drywall and the kick hole. After more than six month, I think it is gone, but I need to double check using the endoscope I bought. During this process, I learned more on termite finding and treating. 

Regarding the insulation, after googling, it looks similar to the blown-in cellulose in color or texture, but I am not sure. 

I included the photo of attic insulation material to see if anyone has any opinion in guessing. I know it is not easy just looking at photo. Is it easy to move this insulation material from one place to another to treat the wood underneath and at the side joists with Bora Care and move back to its original place?




















Thank you very much.


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

@jaykim! You are an apt pupil and a quick study.

I concur in all that surferdude and Oso have said, and add that sometimes termites can eat wood out almost to a papery shell, and you might not notice till you bump against it. 

They love my firewood pile, till I have a fire. :devil3: Termite-eaten wood goes up very fast!


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

The insulation in the photo appears to be old, blown in cellulose.

If you are talking about moving it back and forth, it is a lot of work to do so. The fact that you are even thinking about it implies that your attic is under insulated by modern standards. Due to age, what ever thickness that was originally blown in has settled/compressed To an inadequate thickness.

I’d talk to an insulation company to price the work with a delay between vacuuming the old stuff out (time required for your treatment) and installing new insulation.


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

That may be rock wool. In its loose form, it was the insulation of choice for years. Fiberglass pushed it out of the market for several years. It's now making a comeback but not in loose form. Rock wool batts are superior to fiberglass, as was the old loose form as well. It has slightly better R-value and it's fireproof (well, highly resistant to fire) since, it's actually made from rock, as the name implies.

It does cost more than glass. Some areas require it in firewall applications or between floors. Better check before removing it, just in case.

ps. Proof testing it with a lit match might tell.

SD2


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## DoomsDave (Dec 6, 2018)

take the time to inspect for termites!


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you DoomsDave for the comment. Actually, I am not a quick learner. The termite treatment that I did was from the advice from a general contractor that I happened to know. He showed me the trick and the product to use. He said that when drilling a hole, drill in upward direction and toward the stud so that when shooting the foam spray into the hole, the spray covers the more stud area because the spray shoots up and then flows down along the stud due to gravity. It sounded like a good idea, so I tried.

Thank you Oso954 for the comment. Can I ask what it means by " your attic is under insulated by modern standards."? Do you mean that over time, the fluffy material settles to a small thickness so that there is not much air pocket in the insulation material and it reduces the insulation effectiveness? When I went up, I noticed that the insulation materials were above the joists( not in all area though), so that it was difficult to put temporarily one 2 x 4 plywood to step on. I was worried that stepping on the plywood might put adverse downward pressure on the 2nd floor ceiling panel wood because the plywood is not on the joists all sides. If the insulation materials have to removed by a company, it would be a work of great complexity and cost. I have never thought that far.

Thank you surferdude2 very much for the comment. From your comment, I am really learning a lot. I thought of it as rock wool, but it looks a little different from the google photo. So I was not sure. Do you think it has any possibility of having any asbestos in it? If I do the lit match test later on, what does it tell? If it burns, is it the cellulose? If not, is it rock wool or asbestos? I discarded it into the trash, so I can not do the test right away. 

Yesterday, I treated about 2/3 of the inside of the garage joists, studs, and plywood panel with Bora Care myself after having swept once the surface for dust, hoping it would go a long long way. Like any work, preparation is a lot more difficult and time-consuming than the actual spraying. 

Thank you all very much.


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

Rock wool has no asbestos in it and it will not burn at match flame temperature since it's made totally from stone..

Cellulose will burn at match flame temp but it may be treated to resist that.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> Can I ask what it means by " your attic is under insulated by modern standards."? Do you mean that over time, the fluffy material settles to a small thickness so that there is not much air pocket in the insulation material and it reduces the insulation effectiveness?


Under insulated by modern standards means California has increased the R-value required for the attic a number of times over the years. The R value will translate to X inches of a specific type of insulation. If your builder used the minimum required thickness of insulation, it probably would not meet the 2019 minimum.

The loose fill settling over 40+ years further reduces whatever thickness was installed. That also reduces R value.

Extra insulation helps. So exceeding the minimum required, is not a bad idea. 
A recommended R value or a thickness of a specific type, for your area, is liable to be a lot more than what you are currently seeing.


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## surferdude2 (Nov 21, 2019)

It takes about 12" +- of insulation, depending on the type to come up to the recommended R-value (R-38). I have that and it really pays off, year around! Savings vary with the climate. YMMV

SD2

ps. A couple of points to keep in mind when insulating or re-insulating an attic are:

1. Be sure not to block the air vents at the eaves (is such there be)

2. Verify that any light fixture cans extending into the attic are rated IC (intimate contact) lest they get too hot when smothered. If they aren't rated, stop the insulation short of them 6" or so to allow air exposure.


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## jaykim (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you surferdude2 and Oso954 for the additional comments.
And please pardon my ignorance in these areas. I thought what could go wrong with the insulation material, and that it would last forever without needing to add or upgrade, having never heard of the word R-value.

I think removing and adding the insulation materials are beyond my capacity at this time, so I will check with the local insulation company for that.

surferdude2, as for the insulation material, I just wanted to make sure and was hoping that insulation materials do not have any asbestos because I heard that it would be a big issue by itself. And, I think there are 2 air vents on under the eaves on both sides, and there is no lighting fixture on the ceiling except for the ceiling fans.

Thank you very much.


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