# Dealing with Permits & Building Inspector



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Don't feel too bad, often times new/unfamiliar contractors go through the same thing with the building dept.

As for the liscensing though, that's a little different, at least in my state. During the liscensing process, you learn the answers to most of the questions that you had for them. I'm sure Cali isn't much different, & more than likely far more advanced on their info seeing the regulations hve been in place far longer there.

I will admit I don't envy you for having to deal with a gov. entity like this in SF though.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

It's easy to assume someone is not capable when they can't do it for a living. Not saying it's right, but why is that wrong either.

We get the run around sometimes too, especially in a new area. Most of those people you are talking to are VERY LAZY (probably why they have a government job), and they don't want to do their job. They are supposed to help. Remember, they are working for the public, but don't get pushy. They can make it miserable for you. Just take it with a smile. What they think, is no sweat off your back, right?


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

If you go directly to the office and ask the questions face-to-face, you will nit get the "canned" lectures.

Since you are there, they know you are interested in doing it right and that makes everyone's job easier.

Dick


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## rusty baker (Feb 13, 2009)

Here, in rural Missouri, I can wire my house or do plumbing without permits or anything. Out in the county, there is no zoning, no permits are needed for anything except a septic tank.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I've always gone in & talked to them face to face
Never had any problems
Going thru Conservation Committee was a PIA - stream on property


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Locally they would rather just not know about DIY projects. The usual response is "You don't need a permit for that". I mean technically, you are supposed to get a permit for an easy set pool if it iss 4ft or deeper.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

lay out in writing as a proposal the steps you are doing and if possible any drawings/ cut thru pics if possible. would also include photos of the areas you're working on if there will be physical changes made. The more you can show them that you are organized and have thought the process thru the better they will respond. plus it's a good exercise for you to make sure you have everything thought out and have less chance of the oops factor


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

MJW said:


> It's easy to assume someone is not capable when they can't do it for a living. Not saying it's right, but why is that wrong either.
> 
> We get the run around sometimes too, especially in a new area. Most of those people you are talking to are VERY LAZY (probably why they have a government job), and they don't want to do their job. They are supposed to help. Remember, they are working for the public, but don't get pushy. They can make it miserable for you. Just take it with a smile. What they think, is no sweat off your back, right?


The problem is that there are statutes on the Books that prevent anyone BUT licensed Contractors (Both in terms of skill and established as a business, having a permanent mailing address and insurance.) from performing certain types of work where it involves health and public safety. i.e.; Plumbing work where it involves setting up the drainage and venting systems and making sure that the water supply is not contaminated. Or working with gas supply pipes, which in some jurisdictions requires a special license in addition to the regular Plumber's license. Or electrical work, which can cause serious injury or death if not done properly. However, an exception is made for homeowners on their own property. Because preventing someone from working on their own property is somehow undemocratic. Therefore, some localities give a hard time to someone other than the property owner even if their skills would enable them to complete a project safely.:thumbsup:!


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

concretemasonry said:


> If you go directly to the office and ask the questions face-to-face, you will nit get the "canned" lectures.
> 
> Since you are there, they know you are interested in doing it right and that makes everyone's job easier.
> 
> Dick


 
I have also found it makes a big difference from on the phone to being there in person. The city persons here have been great to work with - from permitting to inspections. No problem whatsoever with being owner-builder.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

rusty baker said:


> Here, in rural Missouri, I can wire my house or do plumbing without permits or anything. Out in the county, there is no zoning, no permits are needed for anything except a septic tank.


Lucky for that. (At least installing a septic tank requires a permit (and Inspection.) Sometimes you wonder why we need all these myriad rules and regulations written down in Parts, chapters, Sections and sub-Sections. Maybe out in the rural country the need for all of this is not so obvious. But when you live in an Urban area and you walk on a boulevard or long street and you see all the buildings are lined up and straight, you could very well imagine that without all these regulations there would be chaos. Imagine builders not observing the limits of how far they can extend their structures or keeping them straight in reference to the surrounding area. (Surveying).


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## fireguy (May 3, 2007)

Don't feel bad, even contractors go through that until they get some credibility. I even have that attitude until I know the inspector I am dealing with is qualified to pass judgement on my work. 

As has been said before, visit them in person. Don't call, just go in. In some jurisdictions you will visit with a counter person who cannot tell a nail from a screw, and does not care. Ask to see an inspector, take notes, get phone numbers, fax numbers. Exchange business cards. Ask for what code they claim to follow. The local library probably has a current copy. If you have to, buy your own copy, the last 2 code books I bought were less than $250.00 for both. When the inspector comes for an inspection, chances are they will not have a code book. Besides, it is nice if you need ti challange a ruling and offer your code book so they can show you the exact code. But, you better know the code prior to the challange. You want to appear professional. Inspectors constantly deal with un-professional people, contractors and non-contractors. Get a notebook for notes. Keep notes as you meet w/the inspector and notes about the project. You may be given copies of the codes, ask if there is a charge. If so, pay it, don't complain.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

acerunner said:


> I called the office to ask basic questions about what kind of documentation they want to see from me when I apply for permits, and they give me a whole lecture about that I shouldn't be doing this and that. *Even though I insist that I know what I'm doing*. In the end, they didn't answer my questions and basically told me to talk to a contractor.
> 
> How do you guys prove to your inspectors that you are capable of doing the work?


_"even though I insist that I know what I'm doing...."_

Maybe that is what is ruffling their feathers.

When ever I deal with inspectors, commisioners, etc, for any reason at all - I make an extra effort to be mild mannered, courteous, and professional.....

....."not" over confident......never pushy......never insistent.


Attitude and demeanor - goes a long, long way.

I am not saying that you have an attitude, I am simply stating that maybe you should re-evaluate how you are carrying yourself, your speech, words, and how you are coming across to them. Maybe you are doing nothing wrong and its all "them", or, maybe you could change your approach.

Example: 

_"....I know what I am doing....but what do I do with Form 10-J?...."_

_*OR*_

_"....I hope you could help me out, this is my first house build (my own) and I have a few questions, if you have the time to help answer them for me, I would really appreciate it...."_


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

acerunner said:


> have you guys ever had the building inspector or plan approval people give you problems with being owner-builder? How do you deal with it?


I found (or really my wife found out) that the fewer questions you ask, the more likely the inspectors are to grant you a permit. I went in with all sorts of questions too and found that always seemed to need more of something.
For our projects, my wife went in with no questions and showed them what she's doing and walks out with a permit. The moral of the story... send your significant other.


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## xxPaulCPxx (Dec 2, 2006)

Something you need to understand as a DIYer is at the end, when you are getting your inspections, is that you need to STFU! Quiet and courteous, don't try to explain anything preemptively, you will only dig yourself a hole.


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## acerunner (Dec 16, 2009)

spark plug said:


> The problem is that there are statutes on the Books that prevent anyone BUT licensed Contractors (Both in terms of skill and established as a business, having a permanent mailing address and insurance.) from performing certain types of work where it involves health and public safety. i.e.; Plumbing work where it involves setting up the drainage and venting systems and making sure that the water supply is not contaminated. Or working with gas supply pipes, which in some jurisdictions requires a special license in addition to the regular Plumber's license. Or electrical work, which can cause serious injury or death if not done properly. However, an exception is made for homeowners on their own property. Because preventing someone from working on their own property is somehow undemocratic. Therefore, some localities give a hard time to someone other than the property owner even if their skills would enable them to complete a project safely.:thumbsup:!


i certainly do agree with that. Certain things I know to leave to the pros. I just wish they weren't so judgmental, and that not all non licensed person is dumb as a brick. I've worked with electricals with much more power than what runs through a house, so I know my way around high voltage. I don't mind that they give me a hard time, because that will weed out those that really shouldn't be doing their own work, but at least answer my questions.

I don't think I was giving the inspector any attitude, I quietly listened while he lectured me and responded with "yes sir". At no point did I say or imply that I know more than a contractor. I know I dont, but I do know enough for the current project at hand. My attitude developed in the end after the call when I realized "wait a minute, he didn't help me at all wtf". 

One thing he mentioned that irks me was that with the down economy and contractors out of work, more contractors are complaining to them about people doing their own work. That didn't make sense to me. That seems to me like a case of schoolyard whining "teacher teacher, they won't let me play with their ball".


Anyway, I guess I will have to go in person. I have documentation done, but I just wanted to double check that there wasn't anything else they wanted to see. It'll save me a trip since the office takes me a while to get to.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

acerunner (Poster #16) Please don't misunderstand my point as barring anyone other than a contractor to do work on their on property. Certainly not DIY'rs. Because they are as close as you can get to being a pro. They take consultation (as on this wonderful site) and prepare well and plan everything out before they start the project. Unfortunately, there are some individuals who think they know everything and are not willing to take any advice. They are called tinkerers. their example should not be followed.:no:!


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## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

Here in Miami Florida depending on the municipality they give you a test. When I replaced my roof after Hurricane Wilma I pulled an owner builder permit, but before they would issue the permit I was quizzed on things like spacing of tin caps, overlap and drip edge installation. Relatively simple questions and I walked out with permit in hand and a smile on my face.


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## acerunner (Dec 16, 2009)

spark plug said:


> acerunner (Poster #16) Please don't misunderstand my point as barring anyone other than a contractor to do work on their on property. Certainly not DIY'rs. Because they are as close as you can get to being a pro. They take consultation (as on this wonderful site) and prepare well and plan everything out before they start the project. Unfortunately, there are some individuals who think they know everything and are not willing to take any advice. They are called tinkerers. their example should not be followed.:no:!


no, i didnt misunderstand u. I was saying the inspectors seems to be that way. I like ur explaination of diyer vs tinkerer. :thumbup:



sparks1up said:


> Here in Miami Florida depending on the municipality they give you a test. When I replaced my roof after Hurricane Wilma I pulled an owner builder permit, but before they would issue the permit I was quizzed on things like spacing of tin caps, overlap and drip edge installation. Relatively simple questions and I walked out with permit in hand and a smile on my face.


according to all codes, owner-builder is allowed here with a test if u want electrical/plumbing permit. However, even though it is allowed, it seems inspectors have their personal opinion about it, and discourages that route, and by discourage I mean be a dick about it. At least was the case with the guy i talked to.

anyway, i'm just kind of ranting here. I spoke to a friend who went through the same thing several times, who told me that the inspector for my district is like that to everyone, even licensed contractors.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

One thing I have noticed in my small upstate NY village is that there is never a permit conspicuously displayed on the premisis where there is construction going on even though it says to do just that on the permit.

My next door neighbor is building an atrocious looking 2nd floor addition on his 1 and 1/4 story house. It has a reverse pitch so there is standing room on one side of the addition. Everyone that visits my house has the same reaction to what they see. Now I'm starting to wonder about how it will affect my property value. I wonder if I should call the code enforcement officer?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I displayed mine in the window at 1st
Then realized the sun was fading everything on the permit
So I pulled them out of the window
Everyone in the building Dept knows me & the permits I have out


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

acerunner said:


> no, i didnt misunderstand u. I was saying the inspectors seems to be that way. I like ur explaination of diyer vs tinkerer. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, as I pointed out in another post. Barring homeowners from working on their own property IS undemocratic. On the other hand, we (as a society) must assure that any work performed on a property is safe and does not put the life and well being of all concerned in jeopardy. As for the Inspectors. they're people. Like everyone else. But, in my own experience. The vast majority are reasonable. I had an electrical inspector raise a question about the proper size of a feeder circuit (which another inspector made a note about). When I told him that I'm willing to pull the entire wire out and show him that the right size (for the load) was stamped on the cable, he signed off on the job.:yes::thumbsup:!


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I displayed mine in the window at 1st
> Then realized the sun was fading everything on the permit
> So I pulled them out of the window
> Everyone in the building Dept knows me & the permits I have out


Here, in NYC. (The Electrical permits for all the other Boroughs of NYC are still handled only from the Municipal Bldg. in Manhattan) The staff also know most electrical contractors personally. But you're allowed to display a copy of the permit. As long as you have the original to show on demand. Additionally. What the Bldng. Dep't started doing lately (in the last year.) They patrol by helicopter to see which sites are illegal. (don't have a permit).:yes:!


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## xxPaulCPxx (Dec 2, 2006)

The thing that most people forget, is that building inspectors don't protect YOU, they protect the community... and the main part of the community they are protecting is the other theoretical occupants who will move in and out every 5 years after you do the work for the next hundred years. The would be 200 FAMILIES! (that was a great line from Aliens)


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

xxPaulCPxx said:


> The thing that most people forget, is that building inspectors don't protect YOU, they protect the community... and the main part of the community they are protecting is the other theoretical occupants who will move in and out every 5 years after you do the work for the next hundred years. The would be 200 FAMILIES! (that was a great line from Aliens)


Thank you for injecting a little humor in this very serious (and mundane?) subject! Some Police Officers smile when they give you a ticket. Others show you a sour face in addition to the ticket. Some inspectors issue violations with a smile or apologies...Something like.. "I would love to pass your work, but you understand that for the public good I can't do that. Then, they dramatize that (heaven forbid) if your job is approved and then a major explosion or fire occurs, not only will they lose their job but will be dragged out of bed at midnight and thrown in a dark, cold cell. I once received a speeding ticket from a State Trooper, who "tricked" me into speeding and then apologized profusely, that...personally he feels very bad for me, but... He's forced to issue the speeding violation, and that, hopefully, I understand..!:laughing:!


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## gmhammes (Jan 10, 2010)

Just adding my 2 cents. I've done 3 or 4 big projects on my house, and every time i check for a permit they tell me, "oh you don't need one.. go ahead". 

My fence, they said you had a permit 10 years ago...lol it was two owners ago and only a chainlink which was torn down 5 years ago but they said it will still be valid.

The most recent was my deck addition and again there was a permit pulled 10 years ago, so they see no reason to get another permit for just extending. 

So even though they always tell me the permit is not neccessary, i make sure to get it in written form (email) and i will still always check with them on each project i do. 
I do however always talk to them face to face and they are much nicer than on the phone!


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

gmhammes said:


> Just adding my 2 cents. I've done 3 or 4 big projects on my house, and every time i check for a permit they tell me, "oh you don't need one.. go ahead".
> 
> My fence, they said you had a permit 10 years ago...lol it was two owners ago and only a chainlink which was torn down 5 years ago but they said it will still be valid.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely doing the right thing. You never know when an insurance Co. or an attorney for a prospective buyer will dig up the record and find that there was no permit pulled for the work performed. Then, your argument that you were (verbally) assured by the town officials that no permit was needed will not be of much help.:thumbsup:!


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

My wife and I have been building our own log home for the past year or so. It is nearly done, and except for the foundation and the standing seam roof, she and I have literally done everything ourselves. We have had no problems with the inspector. Quite the contrary - he has been very helpful, even offering to loan us tools if we needed them (he used to be a contractor). And he subtly makes it known what he'll be looking for when he comes for the next inspection. His main focus is ensuring what we build is safe and structurally sound, and most other things he's pretty slack about. Though our plans didn't call for them, he made us put in hurricane clips for the rafters. No big deal. But it's obvious he doesn't care if the radon mitigation even works as long as he can see we put something in.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I will have to post a picture of the addition that is going up next door to me. It is a nightmare and still not completely sided after almost 2 years. To add to the frustration, there are 3 or 4 unrelated men living under that one roof. The poster from Brooklyn reminds me of how much better regulated things are in a big city. None of this would fly in Binghamton NY where I grew up.


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