# Splicing on 6 gauge wire



## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Did you bond the j-box?


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

jerryh3 said:


> Did you bond the j-box?


I'm not sure what you mean -- are you referring to attaching a ground wire to the junction box? 

EDIT: You can see the entire wiring job in this picture. (BTW: The electrical tape was just put on there to hold the wires together so I could screw on the wingnut easier -- it ends where the wingnut starts.)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iLbfBv8pRDY/SpMOPCkJk3I/AAAAAAAAAGo/3yQFI_QHIy4/s1600-h/clean.jpg


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Usually dryers are rated 30a, ranges are rated 50a

What size breaker do you have installed & what are the 2 appliances rated for?

You can't run a 30a dryer on a 50a breaker


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

kornbln said:


> Why would you tap into the range circuit?


So I wouldn't have to run a new breaker.



Scuba_Dave said:


> What size breaker do you have installed & what are the 2 appliances rated for?
> 
> You can't run a 30a dryer on a 50a breaker


Its a 60A breaker. When we installed the range, that's what we were told was necessary. I've since decided its a bit of overkill. It doesn't seem like it would be an issue to have more amperage than required -- is it?


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

paxprobellum said:


> I'm not sure what you mean -- are you referring to attaching a ground wire to the junction box?
> 
> EDIT: You can see the entire wiring job in this picture. (BTW: The electrical tape was just put on there to hold the wires together so I could screw on the wingnut easier -- it ends where the wingnut starts.)
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iLbfBv8pRDY/SpMOPCkJk3I/AAAAAAAAAGo/3yQFI_QHIy4/s1600-h/clean.jpg


I just now went back and read what you did. I thought you just extended an existing circuit. Take the splice out and run a new wire for the dryer. It's not overkill, it's just wrong.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

paxprobellum said:


> So I wouldn't have to run a new breaker.
> 
> Its a 60A breaker. When we installed the range, that's what we were told was necessary. I've since decided its a bit of overkill. It doesn't seem like it would be an issue to have more amperage than required -- is it?


YES - VERY BAD
Nothing will prevent that 30a dryer from pulling 60a in case of a problem - which it is not rated for
Put a new run in & a 30a breaker
Dryers are a VERY big cause of fires

DO NOT leave this setup like this


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

jerryh3 said:


> I just now went back and read what you did. I thought you just extended an existing circuit. Take the splice out and run a new wire for the dryer. It's not overkill, it's just wrong.


Uh oh. That doesn't sound particularly enthusiastic. What's the underlying issue here?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Violates NEC electric code to an extreme & possible fire


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Violates NEC electric code to an extreme & possible fire


That pretty much sums it up.


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

kornbln said:


> As others have stated, using a 60 amp breaker for a 50 amp range isnt overkill - it's wrong and dangerous. You can't protect a wire with a breaker that's rated for more than the wire can handle.


Erm. I don't think that's what is being said. I think they are saying a 60A breaker is too much for the dryer, which is typically a 30A breaker.



kornbln said:


> By tapping into the range circuit, you could potentially put 80 amps on your 60 amp circuit which would trip the breaker any time you tried to dry your jeans and cook dinner.


Theoretically speaking. Though I wouldn't really consider this a problem. It seems like the issue is if the dryer pulls 60A from the circuit, it would fry itself.

In other words, the problem with the wiring is a dryer that isn't being protected by the circuit breaker. Right?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

As long as the range is rated for 60a then the 60a breaker is fine for the 
range
I always verify the Mfg instructions for breaker size
If it was a salesman that told you 60a was fine double check it
--especially if it was from a big box store


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## jbberns (Jul 1, 2009)

My tv draws 3 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit? 
And code allows oversizing breakers for motor loads and some other things. Don't have it in front of me but, I can prove it.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You can't compare a TV to a dryer


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> As long as the range is rated for 60a then the 60a breaker is fine for the
> range
> I always verify the Mfg instructions for breaker size
> If it was a salesman that told you 60a was fine double check it
> --especially if it was from a big box store


So I just double checked my range installation instructions:

_This appliance must be supplied with the proper voltage and frequency, and connected to an individual, properly grounded, 40 amp (minimum) branch circuit protected by a circuit breaker or time-delay fuse ...

A range cord rated at 40 amps with 125/250 minimum volt range is required. A 50 amp range cord is not recommended, but if used, it should be marked for use with nominal 1 3/8" diameter connection openings._

Seems to indicate to me that 40 amps is the minimum, but 50 amps is okay. How far up the amperage meter does this logic go?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

The 50a ranges are fairly common
If they stated 40a, & 50a was OK - fine ---- but I would not go to 60a


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

So I'm trying to decide how I want to rectify the issues here.

Downsizing the breaker on the range seems like a good idea, but doesn't seem like a safety issue.

Putting the dryer on its own 30A circuit seems like the way to go. Though I don't have any documentation on it, this size seems to be the standard. I have 1 more spot on my panel for a double pole breaker, but that would leave me completely breakerless for any projects in the future (ie tool area, music room, and more?). 

I am considering scrapping what I've done so far and using the 60A double pole breaker for a sub panel to power the range, the dryer, and any future projects.

Thoughts?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

What size service do you have?
100a...200a ......or ?


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> What size service do you have?
> 100a...200a ......or ?


It's 125A


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

For one, the dryer receptacle is only rated at 30 A, not to be protected at more than 30 A, and it is on a 60 A circuit. Two, the range receptacle is only rated at 50 A, and can be protected at 40 or 50 A. What I'm saying is that 60 A is overkill for not just the appliances, but the connection devices especially.

I think using that range circuit to feed a subpanel and feeding each appliance from there is the right thing to do, next to running a circuit for the dryer.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

jbberns said:


> My tv draws 3 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit?
> And code allows oversizing breakers for motor loads and some other things. Don't have it in front of me but, I can prove it.


Your TV has a plug that is made to fit into a 15 or 20 A receptacle.

Code does allow oversizing breakers for motor loads where overload protection is provided by the motor itself. A dryer is not just a motor load, and a range definitely is not, and neither have built in overload protection.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yup, remove the splice
Put a 50a in place of the 60a & feed the range w/50a
Use the 60a & feed a sub-panel
Then feed the 30 dryer from the sub
You'll have some extra room in the sub for other smaller loads

Any other big electric draw items in the house?


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Yup, remove the splice
> Put a 50a in place of the 60a & feed the range w/50a
> Use the 60a & feed a sub-panel
> Then feed the 30 dryer from the sub
> ...


Nope, unless you count the A/C.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Issue of oversized breaker for dryer!*



jbberns said:


> My tv draws 3 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit?
> And code allows oversizing breakers for motor loads and some other things. Don't have it in front of me but, I can prove it.


Friend. You are confusing the issues! When you cite the example of the 3 amp. TV running on a line protected by a 20 Amp. breaker. You're failing to understand that the 20 amp. breaker feeds a line that is the appropriate size. Meaning that until you have (more than) 20 Amps on the line, nothing bad is happening. Whereas here, the heating elements in the dryer could overheat and the entire spliced line could overheat and the breaker would not trip. As far as oversizing the Circuit breaker on large motors (which is permitted by the National Electrical Code) That is done for the reason that a motor will draw more than double its rating for a split second. Furthermore. It is protected by built-in "heating Elements" that would melt if there is a sustained overload or short circuit! (Now more than ever):yes::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive!!!


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I am somewhat confused about this discussion. I understood that the purpose of a breaker was to protect the WIRING and the RECEPTACLES, not the appliances. This issue has been discussed repeatedly on this forum, and the discussions have always reached the conclusion that the breaker protected the circuit, and the appliance manufacturer was responsible for protecting the appliance.

For example, my electric oven has a fuse that protects the APPLIANCE ONLY from overcurrent exceeding the rated capacity of the appliance, this has nothing to do with protecting the wiring. As long as the wire is sufficiently sized to match the breaker, i.e. #12 wire with a 20A breaker, #10 with 30A etc., that meets code as I understand it. If you are running device such as a toaster, drill, range, dryer etc. that can internally handle only up to a certain amount of current, I understood that it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to provide overcurrent protection, and the method of providing such protection is not dictated by the NEC.

If this analysis is correct, there is nothing wrong with splicing into a #6 gage circuit to place more than one device on the circuit, and protecting the circuit with a breaker rated no larger than the maximum allowable draw on the wire. I don't have my NEC book with me, but I recall that #6 copper is rated for 50A, possibly 60A, in any case the breaker (by my understanding of code) should be rated no larger than 50A or 60A (whichever is appropriate for #6 wire). The argument that you could put 80A on the circuit is erroneous, because the breaker will trip. The argument that you could put 60A on the circuit and burn up the dryer, well the dryer should be protected against that outcome with appropriate internal overcurrent devices.

Seems to me the worst that happens is that you turn on both devices simultaneously and blow the breaker, which is no different than turning on two 12A devices like a vacuum and a toaster on different outlets wired to the same circuit and blowing the breaker. That is what the breaker is for, isn't it?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Daniel, you are right about protecting the wiring and receptacles. Which is why it is still a non-compliant set up. The dryer receptacle is rated at 30 A, and the range receptacle is rated at 50 A. If the appliance malfunctions, then it can draw as much current as it wants, up to 60 A or so. What happens to a 30 A receptacle with 60 A running through it? I can tell you this, any receptacle operating at its max rated current is quite warm to the touch, now imagine doubling it.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

So if the owner replaces the 30A dryer receptacle with a 50A rated receptacle of the type that will accept a dryer plug, the setup is OK? Assuming that such a receptacle is available, of course. That would seem to be a simple alternative to running a new line for the dryer.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> So if the owner replaces the 30A dryer receptacle with a 50A rated receptacle of the type that will accept a dryer plug, the setup is OK? Assuming that such a receptacle is available, of course. That would seem to be a simple alternative to running a new line for the dryer.


Not exactly. I'm pretty sure the literature that came with the dryer specifies the maximum size branch circuit the appliance can be connected to.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Did you bond the j-box?


That's the least of his worries :jester:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Lets approach this in terms of code first. Please refer to Nec 210.19(A)(3) exception one. 

This exception allows tap conductors on 40 and 50 amp branch circuits that supply cooking appliances . For example if I run a 50 amp branch circuit to a range I am allowed to run taps off that branch circuit to other cooking appliances and the taps must be at least 20 amp rated. These taps must meet all of the four requirements of that exception. I am not allowed to run taps to clothes dryers off a range circuit. I don't cook with a clothes dryer. Code wise that is pretty clear in my opinion. 

Now design. It would be unusual to tap a range circuit to supply a cooktop or counter mounted oven though you could have this design. It is more often that a 50 amp branch circuit is ran to a junction box with the intent to tap it to serve two or more cooking appliances. This is done on a calculated load basis knowing that load diversity of Art.220 is allowed. In other words if both appliances are rated 30 amps then the calculated load is 60 amps. but we can supply them with a 50 amp branch circuit per 210.19(A)(3). The tap conductors are usually the applaince whip conductors that originate from the appliance and terminate in the junction box connecting to the 50 amp branch circuit. These tap conductors must terminate in a junction box that is adjacent to the appliances and can be no longer than required to service the appliance. They must be minimum 20 amp taps or sufficient to supply the load.

So I don't see a dryer working out here...

Now there are other loads allowed to be tapped from 50 amp branch circuits under 210.19(A)(4) 'Other loads'. You will notice a Dryer doesn't qualify.

OK pretty clear IMO that a clothes dryer can't be supplied or tapped from a single family residence branch circuit that is 40 or 50 amps that serves one or more cooking appliances as far as the NEC is concerned.

Dan brings up the point... what is so unsafe about it looking at it in terms of overcurrent protection for the appliance and branch circuit. If I tap the 50 amp branch circuit to supply the dryer what is different about doing the same to a cooktop. Answer.. nothing really.. both are 30 amp rated appliances and would have 30 amp taps with upstream OCPD of 50 amps.

So whats the deal...very simply the NEC doesn't want power taken from kitchen branch circuits to operate other appliances not associated with the kitchen. 

Dryers by their load ratings pretty much require individual (dedicated) branch circuits in single family homes... almost always 30 amp breaker on 10 awg copper however the manufacturers generally do not state the maximum breaker to be used on the branch circuit. This is a cover my ass requirement in case a thermal overload or other current limiting device fails in the appliance.... the breaker becomes the backup protection for the appliance.

So IMO a tap to a 30 amp dryer from a 50 amp branch circuit is no different than a tap to a 30 amp cooktop and poses the same issues as to overload and overcurrent. It's just that the NEC doesn't allow it from a 50 amp branch circuit serving cooking appliances in a single family residence.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Stubbie, you forgot to mention the requirements in 210.21(B)(3):



> *Receptacle Ratings.* Where connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3), or where larger than 50 Amps, the receptacle ratings shall not be less than the branch circuit rating.
> 
> *Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits.
> Circuit Rating -------- Receptacle Rating*
> ...


From this information, you cannot use a 60 Amp breaker feeding either a 30 or a 50 Amp receptacle.

Table 210.24 also reinforces this concept.
:whistling2:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah I was looking at that Kb, I was having a little trouble getting myself squared away on the tap thing, cause you know how code is....somewhere in the murky waters there is another exception... 

But yes I agree couldn't have the receptacle rated 30 amps on a 50 amp branch circuit. I also overlooked that he said he had this on a 60 amp breaker in post 4. So my post was concerning a 50 amp branch circuit to the range but this still doesn't change what you posted.

I have seen a 4 wire feeder ran to the range location and a small sub-panel installed (accessible) with two breakers. One for a range or cooktop and one was for a hot water tank. This was rather common in modular homes in my area. This would be about the only way he could do what he wants.


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## KayJay (Apr 2, 2008)

Sometimes DIY should be DDIY – Don’t Do In Yourself.

Since dryers are appliances, you could start with 422.11[A] and 422.62 *,1. These should help guide you into compliance with the most basic requirements of 110.3  and the manufactures UL listing of the appliance, which would include the nameplate data and printed instructions. IMO at this point, applying code articles beyond this now becomes irrelevant to the OP’s original botched installation since there is truly no practical way to make it right other than to start over from the beginning. :no:*


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Well I credit him for coming on & posting what he did & asking if it is right

How many people are out there doing the work without 2x checking?
One reason I bought the NEC 2005 code book I wanted to know what the code actually was instead of being told something that might not be true

I've done electric work since I was a kid - father taught me
"Simple" stuff outlets, lights & switches, Dad was the Inspector & a task master
After moving out I know I have done some "bad" wiring, did not know everything
The more you read, the more you learn
I've learned more about electric in the past 6 years then the rest of my life
And I doubt I know even 5-10% of what a real electrician knows


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

KayJay said:


> Sometimes DIY should be DDIY – Don’t Do In Yourself.
> 
> Since dryers are appliances, you could start with 422.11[A] and 422.62 *,1. These should help guide you into compliance with the most basic requirements of 110.3  and the manufactures UL listing of the appliance, which would include the nameplate data and printed instructions. IMO at this point, applying code articles beyond this now becomes irrelevant to the OP’s original botched installation since there is truly no practical way to make it right other than to start over from the beginning. :no:*


*

Unfortunately that wasn't the questions asked and if you can show me a dryer with a maximum breaker listed on the nameplate I'm all ears. Most are marked in accordance with 422.62(B)(2) then go back to 422.11 and it states "if marked with maximum breaker". 

The instructions will state a recommended minimum branch circuit rating using 10 awg and if you cord and plug the dryer it follows that you will be using a 30 amp receptacle and then it follows that you will have to protect with ocpd of 30 amps.

If the dryer is hardwired (many are) then the branch circuit must be minimum 30 amps and the supply cord if used must match the power supply not the appliance.

What Dan was asking is what is the safety issue considering overload protection provided for by the manufacturer integral for the appliance heater and motor. Overcurrent ground faults would be handled by the breaker in the panel and the branch circuit. The question actually had nothing to do with code. It had to do with what is different with a 30 amp tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit or 30 amp tap to a dryer from same.

Tossing out any cord and plug restrictions and hardwiring I see no difference what so ever because the same requirments associated with the art. 422's subsections you cited are applied to both... only one has a motor and the other doesn't.
It was established early in the thread that the installation as it was wasn't code compliant as far as code was concerned. The other replies were to Dan's question. So a discussion was IMO necessary to take a stand one way or the other if a tap to a dryer would be any different than a tap to a cooktop from a 50 amp branch circuit. I say 'no difference' outside of code requirements. One being code compliant and one being non code compliant. 
If all the safety overload devices (also required in the sub-sections of 422) fail in either appliance that is placed on these taps the 30 amp conductors are in jeopardy of insulation failure due to the 50 amp ocpd in the panel protecting the branch circuit conductors becoming the overload protection for the appliances. 

UL listing and manufacturer instructions and code really had no bearing on Dans question.*


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

paxprobellum said:


> Erm. I don't think that's what is being said. I think they are saying a 60A breaker is too much for the dryer, which is typically a 30A breaker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be _profanity removed_.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

rjniles said:


> Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be _profanity removed_.


I don't see anywhere that he has claimed to be a know-it-all
He came on this site to find out if what he did was correct
He has gone on to find out what he can do to correct this & his options

That said, profanity is not needed
And, if you have nothing to contribute-please refrain from these types of posts


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## paxprobellum (Aug 27, 2009)

rjniles said:


> Why try to influence a "know it all", he is going to do what he wants. Let the code be _profanity removed_.


I'm not sure where this came from. Let the record show that I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten on the forum, and I plan to correct my wiring ASAP as I stated earlier in the thread. Many thanks to those who shared their electrical expertise with me -- no thanks to the quoted author.


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## KayJay (Apr 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Unfortunately that wasn't the questions asked and if you can show me a dryer with a maximum breaker listed on the nameplate I'm all ears. Most are marked in accordance with 422.62(B)(2) then go back to 422.11 and it states "if marked with maximum breaker".
> 
> The instructions will state a recommended minimum branch circuit rating using 10 awg and if you cord and plug the dryer it follows that you will be using a 30 amp receptacle and then it follows that you will have to protect with ocpd of 30 amps.
> 
> ...


IMO, the NEC and UL listing have everything to do with an electrical installation, even a botched DIY job. As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything, since it can’t legally be done.

*Example from page-2 of the UL listed installation instructions from a GE model WJSE4150B1WW electric dryer:*

*ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENTS*
*This dryer must be connected to an individual branch circuit, protected by the required time-delay fuses or circuit breakers. A four wire or three-wire, single phase, 120/240V or 120/208V, 60Hz, 30Amp circuit is required.*
*If the electric supply does not meet the above specifications, then call a licensed electrician.*

*GROUNDING INSTRUCTIONS*
*This dryer must be connected to grounded metal, permanent wiring system, or an equipment-grounding conductor must be run with the circuit conductors and connected to the equipment-grounding terminal on the appliance. *

What code article are you referring to regarding cord and plug restrictions for this installation?. 210.19?, 210.20?, 210.21B[2]?, 210.23?, 240.5?, 400.5[A]?
These and several others have already been addressed by the manufactures UL listed instructions based on the electrical requirements and nameplate data for the appliance. This is what makes them so important to follow.

BTW, if you hard wire it you need further address the issue of a code compliant disconnecting means. Very few dryers are hard wired for this reason including the large commercial gas dryers that I service.

It stands to reason that appliances submitted for UL testing along with the internal wiring and protective devices built into the appliance by the manufacturer are tested taking the branch circuit size and protection ahead of them into account, which is likely why the manufactures UL listed instructions include specific electrical supply requirements for the appliance. :whistling2:


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I have to say this was possibly the most interesting thread I have read in the last few months. Several very good posts, thorough, thoughtful, and well researched.

What I have concluded is that the NEC code, for reasons not entirely clear, carefully distinguishes between tapping multiple kitchen appliances off a single 50A circuit versus tapping a combination of kitchen and non-kitchen appliances. This is pretty arcane stuff, but rules are rules. Not that I ever really considered wiring any other way, I have always run separate wires for each major appliance, but I was unaware of the full NEC background.

The fact the UL listings for specific appliances may impose additional restrictions on the specific size of the breaker or circuit raises some interesting questions. For example, I have a built in electric oven that required a 40A circuit. No problem, I put in the appropriate breaker and wiring. Now if I replace the oven with a unit that has a UL listing requiring a 30A maximum circuit, presumably I need to replace the breaker with a smaller one.

As I see it, the manufacturer appears to be using the breaker as belt and suspenders to protect their device from overcurrent conditions, presumably on the theory that their fuse or internal breaker might fail, and the house breaker would then be the backup to prevent damage, I assume, to the appliance.

This approach seems to be limited to major appliances. I do not ever recall, for example, instructions with an electric drill to only plug the drill into a circuit with a 5A breaker, for example, even though the average electric drill is only rated for 2 or 3 amps. Similarly, I can't recall seeing instructions on a toaster, microwave oven, lamp, electric grill etc. limiting the device to a circuit with a maximum breaker size. I wonder why an electric dryer would be different? Is it because the dryer poses a serious potential fire hazard because it is used unattended and generates large amounts of heat?

The same argument could be made for ovens, cooktops, crock pots, electric kilns, and a variety of other heat generating devices. I wonder if someone with background in this area could enlighten me, and presumably others, about the history and reasoning behind this part of the code,and explain the relationship between UL listing requirements and the NEC.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes, very informative thread

My 1/2" hammer drill is rated at 9a
My Dewalt reg 3/8 drill is rated at 7a

I'm not sure how much they actually pull while running
I would think it will depend upon the load, what you are drilling, bit in use etc


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

The appliances and tools mentioned above, by Daniel and Scuba, are automatically limited to a specific circuit size by the plugs they came with. The idea is that a receptacle that accepts such a plug should be wired to a branch circuit of the appropriate size (15 or 20 A). And, if you read your tool manuals carefully, they usually DO detail the size of the circuit the device is intended to operate on.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?

So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
But a 3a household device can be protected bya 20a breaker?

I think that's where he is going ?


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Scuba_Dave said:


> I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
> I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?
> 
> So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
> ...


I get it, but a 3 A rated drill won't maintain 10 A for long before it burns a winding up. Same with a toaster. Those things have inherent limitations mostly due to the simplicity of the design. But as the amount of available power goes up, the amount of potential external damage rises exponentially (I think).

In other words, a toaster will never draw 100 A, even if given the chance, but a 30 A dryer might.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok, I figured it must be something like that
I guess we have to trust the Mfg
Hopefully as long as its not made in China :laughing:


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> In other words, a toaster will never draw 100 A, even if given the chance, but a 30 A dryer might.


A toaster could draw 100A pretty easily. At least, for a little while.

I'm not sure there's an entirely rational safety reason behind "max breaker" ratings on things like heat pumps. If it's a cord and plug thing then yeah you don't want to overload the outlet.

A motor with no built in overloads can burn up and catch fire without ever drawing more than its "max breaker" rating. One with overloads will trip those anyway.

Of course there should be common sense involved, but I really don't see a compelling safety argument against an extra 10 or 20 amps on the breaker past the max rating when no cord and plug are involved and the wire is large enough.

All that said... I wouldn't mess around with a clothes dryer. Those things are enough of a fire hazard even without pushing your luck on something that isn't code compliant.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Issue of "small" appliances protected by "Large" circuit*



Scuba_Dave said:


> I think he's pointing out that a lot of household items are plugged into circuits that could supply a lot more power then what they are rated for
> I have no idea how a household item is "protected" against a defect/problem where it could pull up to the circuit rating?
> 
> So a 30a dryer must have a 30 breaker
> ...


I think I pointed out in a previous post (when someone cited the example of the 3a. TV being protected by a 15 or 20a. circuit breaker) that the larger size protection is to protect the supply line (Branch Circuit). The appliance itself might or might not have internal protection. As some industrial motors have overload and short circuit protective heaters in the Magnetic Starter that are a fraction of the supply line (branch circuit). Whereas in the case of the 30amp. Dryer supply line being tapped into the 50 Amp. Branch Circuit of the Range, the entire branch circuit is in jeopardy in addition to the Dryer!(No matter what):yes::no::drinkon't Drink and Drive!!!


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

*Pointing out distinction Bet. small & major appliances!*

Daniel Holzman (post # 47?) Your observations are very well noted! As you point out in the Fourth and Fifth paragraphs the distinction (from the viewpoint of both, the UL and NEC) between small and major appliances, particularly those whose primary function is to produce heat. Let's assume, hypothetically if the motor of a drill, for some reason (Prolonged LR condition?) burns out. It's not a pleasant situation, but no major safety hazard has occurred. But a clothes dryer whose heating elements draw more than their rated power could very well cause a serious fire!:yes::no:Eliminate confusion through Education!!! No matter what:drinkon't Drink and Drive!!!


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Gigs said:


> A toaster could draw 100A pretty easily. At least, for a little while.


Maybe, if measured in hundredths or thousandths of a second. A toaster's heating elements are quite fragile. They would melt and open at not much more current than they draw at normal operating conditions.



> I'm not sure there's an entirely rational safety reason behind "max breaker" ratings on things like heat pumps. If it's a cord and plug thing then yeah you don't want to overload the outlet.
> 
> A motor with no built in overloads can burn up and catch fire without ever drawing more than its "max breaker" rating. One with overloads will trip those anyway.
> 
> ...


The max breaker size on things like heat pumps is to protect the wiring, not the machine, because the wire can be smaller than what would normally be used.


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## spark plug (May 5, 2009)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Ok, I figured it must be something like that
> I guess we have to trust the Mfg
> Hopefully as long as its not made in China :laughing:


The Chinese "industries" can imitate the UL and CSA symbols, too. Electrical Contractor Magazine had a recent article about it! This blog is not about exposing the bootlegging by that country. But if it were, I'd have plenty to say about it!!!:yes::no::drink:No matter what! Don't Drink and Drive!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

KayJay said:


> IMO, the NEC and UL listing have everything to do with an electrical installation, even a botched DIY job. As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything, since it can’t legally be done.
> 
> *Example from page-2 of the UL listed installation instructions from a GE model WJSE4150B1WW electric dryer:*
> 
> ...


Do tell....Why is it that you keep wanting to pat yourself on the back with all your ramblings about this being a code violation .. we have known that from page one. BTW KBsparky listed the receptacle limitations I refered to earlier.

Are you trying to impress someone with all those code sub-sections??

Unfortunately you are still are focused on it being a code violation to connect a dryer to a typical 50 or 60 amp branch circuit...because of manufacturers instructions. This was never the question.. violation or not. 
The original question was about connecting a dryer to a 50 amp branch circuit to a range (cooking appliance) by tapping into the branch circuit conductors. I cited the codes that are directly associated with tapping 50 amp branch circuits to cooking appliances and what is necessary to meet code in that application. That was hardly rambling.

And give me a break on the disconnect fella it is an easy compliance and less costly than a receptacle for a residential dryer.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> *ELECTRICAL REQUIREMENTS*
> *This dryer must be connected to an individual branch circuit, protected by the required time-delay fuses or circuit breakers. A four wire or three-wire, single phase, 120/240V or 120/208V, 60Hz, 30Amp circuit is required.*
> *If the electric supply does not meet the above specifications, then call a licensed electrician.*


*

I would call this a minimum.....

Open question..


*Everyone here knows that we would wire this dryer on 10 awg with a 30 amp breaker. probably to a receptacle. But would I be in violation of the NEC or manufacturers instructions if I hardwired it with 35 or 40 amp branch circuit rating. What I'm asking... Is it cut in stone from the manufacturers instructions listed above to be 30 amps 10 awg maximum? Keeping in mind that this is an individual branch circuit requirement from the manufacturer.


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## KayJay (Apr 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Do tell....Why is it that you keep wanting to pat yourself on the back with all your ramblings about this being a code violation .. we have known that from page one. BTW KBsparky listed the receptacle limitations I refered to earlier.
> 
> Are you trying to impress someone with all those code sub-sections??
> 
> ...


There is no need or desire to attempt to impress or indulge in any self-gratification on my part. Just trying to figure out where you are coming from on this.

If you attempt to take all professionalism, the NEC and listing issues out of the discussion of any electrical installation… you are left with nothing but unsafe freestyle DIY installation techniques and meaningless rhetoric. Is this what you are striving for?

You accept that it’s a violation, and then are attempting to rationalize and compare it to another installation, when even the method of installation you are referencing might be considered a violation on a very basic elementary level.

The point here is that it could even be successfully argued that if the listed instructions for a cooktop and a wall-mount oven each specify that they require properly protected individual branch circuits, you could forget about using the tap rule in 210.19[A],[3], exception #1, since the manufactures listed installation instructions would supersede the NEC.


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

spark plug said:


> The Chinese "industries" can imitate the UL and CSA symbols, too.


Customs will stop it at the border as a trademark violation if they find out about it.


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## KayJay (Apr 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> *I would call this a minimum.....*
> 
> *Open question..*
> 
> ...


I don’t see any reference to minimum, but I do see the word required in there twice. Once for overcurrent protection and once for circuit ampacity.
The reason they specify required ampacity and not wire size is because you could use conductors larger than #10 for a 30A circuit if you want or need to, such as for voltage drop issues.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Kayjay
> 
> 
> You accept that it’s a violation, and then are attempting to rationalize and compare it to another installation, when even the method of installation you are referencing might be considered a violation on a very basic elementary level.
> ...


I give up.... I am not arguing or comparing or rationalizing anything to the OP's code violation You keep responding to my replies to Dans question which had nothing to do with the op's installation ... Dans question was a result of it.

Rambling post to follow.....after deleting long winded post.....

The OP's installation is a code violation for many reasons including 110.13(B). You keep asking and I keep telling you its a code violation and you keep asking.

You spun this into 110.13(B) I didn't. You have yet to step up to the plate and answer DANs question in post #27. I will not pursue any more code rhetoric with you. His question (for the last time) has nothing to do with all these code articles you are throwing around like popcorn at a ballgame.

I'm trying to figure out where your coming from.... 

I answered DANs questions plain and simple... you keep referring to codes and the original posters installation. Can we please get on the same page ?? 

And would you stop with setting up the codes to suit your purpose. Hell man we could both manipulate the code to our satisfaction. You seem to think there is a code answer to DAN's question. Would you please go back and look at what he asked...and then come back here and tell me how your going to answer it with code and especially with 110.13(B)?

All this argument about code and instructions is pointless.

If we want to argue about 110.13(B) lets start a new thread


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## KayJay (Apr 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> I give up.... I am not arguing or comparing or rationalizing anything to the OP's code violation You keep responding to my replies to Dans question which had nothing to do with the op's installation ... Dans question was a result of it.
> 
> Rambling post to follow.....after deleting long winded post.....
> 
> ...


Regarding this and the earlier response that you recently edited.

My original reply to the OP’s post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.
This DIY job was botched, but I don’t recall insulting the OP’s intelligence by stating that known fact. I have simply been questioning your logic since your first reply to me.

I’m not sure how knowing the correct way to do something and being able to reference the appropriate answer to back up my statements for others to verify somehow puts me on a high horse, but if so, then that is just the unfortunate result of living this trade for several decades. I am also still learning every day. Are you saying that you do not have the ability to do the same? 

The code says what it says, I don’t manipulate it. I try to reference known formal interpretations whenever possible. There are also other things you must take into account in addition to the NEC for electrical installations, such as the UL white book, where again you will find written text to back up my statement about following the manufactures installation instructions, even for household cooking equipment, if you care to look.
Also, I never mentioned anything about 110.13*, so not sure where that came from. :huh:

I have turned off email notifications, so you can feel free to reply and edit your response as many times as you need to try and make your point relevant and coherent. :whistling2:

Regards*


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

KayJay said:


> My original reply to the OP’s post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.


It seems like you threw the first stone with this statement:



> As far as I can tell though, your hypothetical ramblings have nothing to do with anything...


Before that, Stubbie was very cordial. The first tones of hostility crept up in your quote above.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> My original reply to the OP’s post was open, but it was you who decided to belligerently respond in an erroneous attempt to assert some posture of superior technical ability as the sensei of intellectual prowess and deep thought.
> This DIY job was botched, but I don’t recall insulting the OP’s intelligence by stating that known fact. I have simply been questioning your logic since your first reply to me.
> 
> I’m not sure how knowing the correct way to do something and being able to reference the appropriate answer to back up my statements for others to verify somehow puts me on a high horse, but if so, then that is just the unfortunate result of living this trade for several decades. I am also still learning every day. Are you saying that you do not have the ability to do the same?


I'm not sure what the first paragraph said.... but I think it was a compliment...:jester:

I do apologize for being a bit testy and for the deleted post ...it was unfair and too personal.. reason I deleted it. But I dislike internet police that come into a thread declare the discussion irrelevant because it is a code violation and further discussion is fruitless "sayeth the lord".

Dan's question was a technical question not a code question. He simply wanted to know more about the 'why' of the tap being incorrect "electrically speaking" and stated his reasoning. Frankly we never got to finish that discussion... it was unfortunate....as there was much more to be discussed little of which had to do with codes. And none of it would have had to do with 110.13(B) or any appliances articles in 422. 

The fact that you can tap a cooking appliance branch circuit made things relevant in my opinion. Why a cooktop tap but not a dryer? Why not 50 amp on a 30 amp branch circuit to a dryer? DANs understanding had several merits and some misunderstandings..most of which I should have returned to... but chose instead to spar with you. My mistake.

Where I was going with the posting of those instructions was this qoute below...and this is a qoute from someone who knows more in his little finger than I will ever know.. maybe you wrote it??

Commentary to 422.11(A) " If a labeled or listed appliance is provided with installation instructions from the manufacturer, the branch circuit is not permitted to be *less than* the *minimum* size stated in the installation instructions." "Also see 110.13(B)" 
And frankly the above commentary is how I have been told and trained by several electricians and instructors over the years. So shoot me if you want.

Your example used the word "required" pretty hard to agrue what that means but on a more prestigous professional forum than here they do a good job of it. The consensus is from that discussion is it is a code violation...you must supply with only a 30 amp branch circuit with 10 awg copper conductors. So I would likely lose the argument that required is a minimum.

ALSO I respect anyone who cites code to defend their stand. What I didn't like is your attempt to make the questions Dan asked a code compliance issue no discussion neccesary... case closed..plain as that. 

And for what it is worth I would certainly say your someone who knows a little. So maybe in the future we can have a disussion to a posters question that we will find some common ground.

With that I will apologize and in hind sight I could have found a much better response to your replies. 

Sorry but I have good days and bad.


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