# Convert single pole switch to a 3 way!



## secutanudu (Mar 15, 2009)

You can just get a wireless switch...not cheap thought.

http://www.smarthome.com/2494M3/SwitchLinc-3-Way-Dimmer-INSTEON-3-Way-Dimmer-Kit/p.aspx


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

secutanudu said:


> You can just get a wireless switch...not cheap thought.
> 
> http://www.smarthome.com/2494M3/SwitchLinc-3-Way-Dimmer-INSTEON-3-Way-Dimmer-Kit/p.aspx


 How right you are! I must be getting dotty! Less than 12 months ago, I suggested this to a friend, so that they could have 3 way switching at his church!
Then, promptly forgot about it for myself! Duhhh!


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Wildie said:


> ...an unfinished basement...
> 
> ...the 14/2 cable follows a route that cannot be fished or the cable to be pulled out...


So abandon the wire in-place and fish wire from the switch box along some other path. Basically pretend like you were starting over. If you have an unfinished basement, then I would think enough stuff would be open to allow running a whole new circuit.


What about egress, garage, and ventelation requirements. Modern codes require that a bedroom have some sort of direct access to the outside via either a door, or a window of a certain minimum size. The bedroom can not open directly into a garage. (There were so many new requirements between the time our house was built with an unfinished basement, and the time I started to finish in the basement, I just abandoned the idea of adding a bedroom in the basement and I'm making the space to be a huge walking-air-conditioned closet.)


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

> However the 14-2 cable follows a route that cannot ...


Any regular switch can be converted to 3 way thusly: Leave all the existing wiring in place and add a 3 conductor cable from the original switch to the new switch location.

Then you take the two wires off the old switch. Connect one to the common terminal of the first 3 way switch and the other to the black wire of the new cable. At the new switch location connect the black wire to the common terminal of the second 3 way switch. Connect the remaining wires to the traveler terminals of the switches.

It is possible you will need to install a bigger box at the original switch location.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

Allan,

If you are trying to describe how to wire a dead-end three way, the white would be the feed to the switch.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

HooKooDooKu said:


> So abandon the wire in-place and fish wire from the switch box along some other path.  Basically pretend like you were starting over. If you have an unfinished basement, then I would think enough stuff would be open to allow running a whole new circuit.
> 
> 
> What about egress, garage, and ventelation requirements. Modern codes require that a bedroom have some sort of direct access to the outside via either a door, or a window of a certain minimum size. The bedroom can not open directly into a garage. (There were so many new requirements between the time our house was built with an unfinished basement, and the time I started to finish in the basement, I just abandoned the idea of adding a bedroom in the basement and I'm making the space to be a huge walking-air-conditioned closet.)


 The present switch is on the outside wall of the stair well. The wire was run, before the stairs were put in place and the walls were insulated.
The only way I can get new wire to the location would be to run it in surface conduit! 

There are all sorts of regs for basement living accommodations. Emergency egress being one of these! I'm required to provide an exit of 3.8 s.f. and a coal shut was put in place for this place, that is exactly 4 s.f. and I will use this!


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Jim Port said:


> Allan,
> 
> If you are trying to describe how to wire a dead-end three way, the white would be the feed to the switch.


You're right.

Hmmm... Can you get away (I did not say correctly) using a white as a traveler?

What's more important is that the white may not be the switched power coming back to the light. So using the white for the common terminal of the far switch mandates identifying the two wires coming off the old single pole switch as to which is the panel feed (unswitched power) to attach to the white wire of the new 3 wire cable at the near switch, preserving the red and black for use as travelers.


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

NEC 200.7 requires that the white only be used as the supply to the switch in a cable assembly. It cannot be used as the switched hot to the fixture.

The white should also be re-identified as a hot conductor.


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Wildie said:


> The present switch is on the outside wall of the stair well. The wire was run, before the stairs were put in place and the walls were insulated.


Unless its spray-foam insulation, I don't see why you can't fish a new wire through the wall just because it is insulated. You'll likely pull a little insulation out in the process, and that you can minimize if you can keep the fishing line along the edge of the wall.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

HooKooDooKu said:


> Unless its spray-foam insulation, I don't see why you can't fish a new wire through the wall just because it is insulated. You'll likely pull a little insulation out in the process, and that you can minimize if you can keep the fishing line along the edge of the wall.


 Believe me, there is no way to run new wire without ripping off door casing, lifting the stair case and smashing open the plaster! 
And that's not going to happen! :no:


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Just to clarify, what I would like to do, I'll attempt to attach a sketch of what I visualize! 

That was easier than I thought! [grin] I would like to use a relay with a 120 volt coil and a set of make/break contacts! And am looking for ideas of where to find one that would work in this application!


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi! I'm still looking for comments on my 2 way switching work around!

In the main, I'm wondering if there's a commercial product that I can use for the relay!


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Just a personal comment. While it will work as a 3 way workaround, I don't feel comfortable with a simple relay system since depending on the switch positions, the relay coil may be energized for long periods of time such as overnight holding the contacts in the position for lights off.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Wildie said:


> The relay having a 120 volt coil and a set of make/break contacts, to perform the function of the 3 way switch.
> So, my question is, is this legal? And if so, is there a product out there, that is available for this type of function?


Go to a relay with a 24 vac coil or less, it probably will be.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Go to a relay with a 24 vac coil or less, it probably will be.


 What would be the advantage of using 24 vac versus 120 vac?
I'm not totally happy about having the relay energized all the time, and if there was a 'ratchet' type relay, that would be ideal!
Maybe, I should rethink this! Perhaps a surface run of 'Wiremold' should be considered!


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## HooKooDooKu (Jan 7, 2008)

Will these electronic switches work for you?
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-VPS15-1LX-Electronic-Switch-Single/dp/B001RIYQNQ
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-VP0SR-1LZ-Matching-Remote-Switch/dp/B001HSYT3S/ref=pd_sim_hi_3

Specs available at http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/xxlcfbuibeCSrdSrchResults.jsp?cg=&kw=VPS15&ds=0&dr=20&st=kw&cpg=0 show that two wires are all that are needed between the VPS15 switch and the VPOSR remote.

From what I can tell, the way you would wire it up is to run power to the VPS15 switch at the bottom of the stairs, replace the existing switch with a VPOSR, and use the existing 14/2 cable to connect the two.

As I generally understand it, when you flip the VPOSR switch, that sends a single to the VPS15 telling it to toggle. In other words, the actual control of the power to the lights occurs in the VPS15. Via the VPOSR, you basically tell the VPS15 to toggle its current state.

The cost of the two switches together (excluding shipping, etc) is around $30.


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## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

Try googling "wireless 3 way switching" There are alot of wireless 3-way switches from many manufacturers available! I have never used them but I haven't heard anything bad about them either. Might be worth a shot! Here's a couple links!

http://www.smarthome.com/2531W/Wireless-3-Way-Decora-Switch-Kit-White-6696-W/p.aspx

http://www.smarthome.com/2533T/Wireless-Three-Way-Light-Switch-HW2155D/p.aspx

http://www.google.com/products?client=opera&rls=en&q=wireless+3-way+switching&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=CyrrS7LPE4H78AbL1ZXiDg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CC8QrQQwAg


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

HooKooDooKu said:


> Will these electronic switches work for you?
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-VPS15-1LX-Electronic-Switch-Single/dp/B001RIYQNQ
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-VP0SR-1LZ-Matching-Remote-Switch/dp/B001HSYT3S/ref=pd_sim_hi_3
> 
> ...


 Hey, I think that you have come up with the solution. Took me a half hour to understand how they work!
It gets even better, as I was considering a 4 way switch. I think that you can have any number of remote switch's, any one of which can trigger the main, off and on!

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll explore this further and if I go this way, I'll let you know!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Wildie said:


> What would be the advantage of using 24 vac versus 120 vac?


Safer and less NEC restrictions and smaller wire so it can be routed almost anywhere.


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