# Help if it's not too late!!



## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Guys- My name is Cyndi and I have started an electrical job for the first time. I hope it's not too late to make any needed corrections.

I run an animal rescue and needed power in my animal barn/garage/shop. The building is 100 feet from the main house panel. The building is 36'x50'. I will be running heat lamps, trough heaters flourescent lights and some power tools.

I ran 3 #8 wires from the main panel next to the house. One white, two black. This was from a 40 amp breaker in the main panel.

From reading some of your input, I am understanding that #1, I should have also run a green #8 wire from the main panel as well? I didn't do that so is it o.k. to just put a grounding rod in at the new sub-panel???

#2 I also did not isolate the ground wiring for the outlets from the neutral wires. There was only one bar in the panel. I guess I need to buy another bar and install it in the panel and separate the ground wires from the neutral wires??

I do not have one breaker that shuts off all power to the panel except for the one in the main panel by the house. Do I need to make that change too???

I'm glad I found your site. Better late than never, huh??

P.S. The outlets all work fine at this point but I want it to be safe. I haven't finished the lighting. I'm working on the conduit runs.

Thanks for your consideration. Cyndi


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> I didn't do that so is it o.k. to just put a grounding rod in at the new sub-panel???
> 
> #2 I also did not isolate the ground wiring for the outlets from the neutral wires. There was only one bar in the panel. I guess I need to buy another bar and install it in the panel and separate the ground wires from the neutral wires??
> 
> I do not have one breaker that shuts off all power to the panel except for the one in the main panel by the house. Do I need to make that change too???


No, yes and yes.

The first two issues are more important from a safety standpoint.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

It is preferred to run four wires...2 hots (black), one white (neutral) and a insulated green equipment grounding wire. However if you are not required to run 4 wires by local code or if you are under the 2005 NEC electrical code then you are allowed to run 3 wires as you have already done. I wish you would have ran a 60 amp feeder to your electrical panel in the animal shelter.
*
Please note that if you have any other metallic paths in addition to the electrical feeder to the sub panel like water lines or phone lines to the shelter you must run four wires to your shelter sub-panel.*

At any rate if you elect to keep the *3* wire feeder you do not separate the grounds and neutrals but you must install the bonding means in the single neutral bar. This is often a green screw that goes into the neutral bar and threads into the back of the metal panel. If you tell me the maker of your panel I can help you with the bonding if your not sure.
You will need a ground rod probably 2 of them. You will run a #6 copper out to those ground rods and use ground rod clamps to bond the wire to the rods.

We can link you to photos of the needed materials if you like. 

Be sure to use gfci protection on your receptacles. Here is a diagram of what you should have...ask lots of question about anything you are unsure of....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*A Great Big Thanks!!!*

A great big THANKS to you Stubbie!!!! Your information was invaluable to me. I wish I had run #6 wire out to the barn with a larger breaker in the main panel as well. I am trying to decide whether I should pull the #8 out, install #6 and if I am to do that I may as well run a ground wire too!!! A lot of work but I do want it to be safe!!!! The panel is a 125 and it does not have a main shut off either. There is no room in the panel to put a shut off breaker as I have used most of the breakers already adding the slim jims to accomodate what I already have planned.

I may need to start with a larger panel, or change it in the near future. It would be smarter to change it now when I only have the left side of the garage wired in I guess.

I have 6 outlets on the left wall on their own circuit. The outlets will most likely have water trough heaters going with additional lamps for heat at times in the winter. The lamps usually have 150 -250 watt bulbs in them to warm the baby goats that are being born. The trough heaters are anywhere from 500-1250 watts each and there will be 2-3 on that same circuit.

All of the ceiling lights on the left, middle and right of the barn are flourescent and they are on their own circuit.

The right side of the barn is to be the same as the left with 6 outlets on their own circuit. 

The rear of the barn will have 5-6 outlets on their own circuit for a shop area for light wood working projects. I have also run a 220 plug for my table saw that requires one.

From that same panel, there are three other circuits that run to outdoor pastures that have water trough heaters, lighting and an outlet at each of three locations. They are functional at this time and were used this past winter with no trouble.

I thought I was ready to wire in the barn, but now I am wondering if I should get a larger panel and do the things that you experts would do if it were your barn. 

Thanks for your consideration and the information/drawing. You are great Stubbie!!!

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi 

You do not need a larger panel. 125 amps should be more than enough for future growth. You would most likely have to upgrade the main panel at your house before you would ever think of upgrading the shelter sub-panel.

What size service in amps do you have for your home?

You should have a disconnect for the panel that will break both the hot conductors of the feeder. If you could give me the model# and maker of your panel I can see if it will accept a main breaker kit or backfed breaker for your disconnect. You have what is called a main lug panel at present sometimes these can convert to main breaker or backfed breaker. Or you can have a separate disconnect from the panel itself.

It is important to know how many heaters you will be operating and the overall load you expect at the shelter in order to properly size the feeder. 

If you have that 125 amp panel full of circuits you likely have way more than a 40 amp feeder can support. Give me a few minutes to look at your load information you posted. I'll post back in few minutes.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*More Info*

Hey Stubbie! Thanks for the quick response. I checked out the information that I think you wanted. We have a panel and meter on a pole outside that is 200amps. The breakers within the panel are a 50, 20, 30 and 40. The 40 going to the barn.

Then there is a 200 amp panel in our man. home, being fed from that pole panel as well.

I ran the #8 wire from the outside pole panel on the 40 amp breaker.

The brand of panel is a Murray. Where is the model # located?? Is it stamped into the metal back of the panel or is it on the paper label. If it is on the label, like a dummy, I put the breaker label sticker over that and when I try to remove it, it peels the underlying label too.

Thanks, Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok... there is no way to run all those heat lamps and heaters on one branch circuit for cord and plug. 

If you are running a 15 amp branch circuit and your outlets are duplexes (2 outlets) one 250 watt lamp and one 1250 watt 120 volt heater is all you operate on one breaker from one duplex receptacle. You have six duplexes it sounds like on one circuit!! A 15 amp breaker can operate 1800 watts of non-continuous load. One lamp and one heater is 1500 watts if you use the maximums that you posted. If you try to operate all those heaters and lamps on one branch circuit whether it is 15 or 20 amp you will be grossly overloaded!

Example: A 20 amp branch circuit will operate 2400 watts of non-continuous load. You have 6 duplexes 3 have 150 watt heat lamps and the other 3 have 250 watt heat lamps these are continuous loads unless you have them on timers. In addition you have 2 500 watt heaters and one 1250 watt heater at 120 volts on a thermostat. 3x150=450 watts 3x250=750watts which equals 1200 watts of continuous load. then you have 500x2 = 1000watts + 1250 watts = 2250 watts of non-continuous load. The circuit requires conductors rated 125% of the continuous load plus the non-continuous load. So you need conductors rated for 3750 watts or 31 amps. Can't do this on *one *20 or 15 amp branch circuit.
The outside heaters in the pastures plus what you have in the shelter will not be supported by 40 amps if you operate all this in the winter. The rest of the year should be ok but still that will not do what you need.

You need to pull in a 60 amp feeder using #6 thwn conductors H-H-N and a #10 ground. 

If this is what you choose then we need to go over what you need to do to connect the 4 wire feeder to your 125 amp sub.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie-

The barn panel is an 8 breaker slot panel. Two are being used for the 220 saw outlet. That leaves 6. I bought slim-jims so now I have 12 besides the 220 breakers. Six are being used for the outside outlets, lights etc. That leaves me with 6. I have one of those six hooked up to the six outlets for the left side of the barn. That leaves me with 5 left. Two other breakers are obligated for the rear circuit and right circuit of the garage. That leaves me 3. I need one for all the flourescent ceiling lights which leaves me with 2 extra breakers in the panel.

I guess I should plan to pull the #8 wire out, put a 60amp breaker in the outside pole panel and run #6 wire to the barn???? I should have hired an electrician!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually it is fun to learn this stuff so if I make some mistakes along the way (as long as they are fixable), I guess that is part of the process.

Thanks, Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Do you still have the box the panel came in?

Use 2 20 amp breakers and split the 6 duplexes 3 on each breaker. Do not put more than one 1250 watt heater on either circuit. You will have 2400 watts to work with on a 20 amp branch circuit.

For ease of installation consider replacing your main lug panel with a 100 amp or 125 amp *main* *breaker* panel.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie-

I just got your load calcs. Wow!!! Anyway, The baby pens are in the planning stage and I could just put 4 pens that have one water trough for 2 pens making a total of 2 water troughs needing one heater each at 500 watts each. Then I would need a lamp for each pen (4) and could put 150 watt bulbs for heating an area in each pen for the babies to keep warm. This would all be on one circuit. The same would apply for the circuit on the right side of the barn. Would that work??? All my breakers are 20 amp with #12 wired circuits-grounded. 

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Also using #6 thwn copper will allow you to place it on a 70 amp breaker. the wire is rated for 65 amps but there is no 65 amp breaker so you can move one size up to a 70 if you wish.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- I do not have the box that the panel came in. The panel was installed last year with the exterior pen wiring. I am just now getting to the barn lighting as the old barn caved in from all the snow this year and the new barn was completed last week. Thank goodness the panel wasn't damaged but here I am wondering what to do next to make it all work out the way that it should. You are a great help and I do appreciate all of your input. I am willing to do whatever it takes to make the system work the way that it should. So, you just let me know what I need to do and I will do it!!! Thanks. Cyndi


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Did you run your feeder wires in conduit or is it direct burial cable? If it is in conduit you may have enough room for the EGC (green ground wire) or possibly run larger conductors. Stubbie is taking good care of you and I encourage you to continue working with him on this project.
Electrical safety is paramount to most of the pros on this site. Operational issues are important too. It looks as if you are in the operational mode now so don't hesitate to ask more questions. There are others available if Stubbie is not.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

As long as you understand how to balance the loads so you don't overload the breaker that is fine.

You need a disconnect of some kind at the panel. A main breaker panel 100 amp or 125 amp is the simplest. Its is ok to feed this with a 60 or 70 amp feeder with the protecting breaker at the pole panel you mentioned. The breaker in the shelter sub-panel will simply be your disconnect.

Your going to need to separate the grounds and neutrals using a 4 wire feeder.
This usually requires purchasing a ground bar kit that will install in the predrilled swaged holes in the back of the panel. Simple installation is required using a couple screws.

Here is another diagram of how it will look...


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- You mentioned replacing the main lug panel with a 100-125 breaker panel. What does that mean. The main panel on the pole is a 200 amp panel??? I don't get it. Thanks, Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

The 200 amps for the house is great and should support your shelters needs provide you don't have that panel maxed out as to load from the demand at the house. This will have nothing to do with the sum of the breakers in the panel!!

I would suggest biting the bullet and getting a main breaker panel with enough circuits for your needs. It is possible to put a main breaker in a main lug panel if it is a convertible panel but I need the Model#. However you will find that the cost for a new panel is going to be about the same as a main breaker kit.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

J.V. Hi!!! I did run the wire within underground conduit to the barn sub-panel. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

We are posting so close together its hard to keep up....

There is a lot to explain.

You have a Murray panel at the barn/shelter correct? What I am saying is replace it with a main breaker panel. I am understanding it to be a main lug only with no main breaker in it. 

You won't do anything to your 200 amp panel.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*Starting Over!!*

Stubbie-

O.K. Let's start all over per your directions. I will get another panel. In the mean time, I will get my lighting up and going for at least part of the barn so that I can do some work at night running the EMT throughout. I don't need to use heaters at this point anyway but I will need it by this fall and winter.

Again, the panel with the meter on the outside pole near the house is a 200 amp panel with the 40 amp breaker to the barn, 50 amp breaker to the well controls and pump, a 20 amp breaker for a GFCI outlet on the pole and a 30 amp outlet that we really don't need or use.

The inside panel that is fed from the pole panel in our manufactured home is a 200 amp. Our home is all electric. We have no Air Conditioning. Electric Range, dishwasher, refrig, microwave, heat, lighting and I did want to put a couple baseboard heaters in our family room which only has wood heat at this time. One 8 foot and 2 four foot heaters is what I was hoping for.

So let's start with this info and if you need more let me know. 

O.K., so I need to replace the barn panel with one that has a main shut off breaker. Do I stick with a 125 amp panel or should I go with a 200 amp breaker panel in the barn???


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi 

Get a 100 amp main breaker load center (sub-panel) that has 12 spaces that will give you 24 single pole circuits using the tandem breakers ( slim jims as you call them)....

Look at this page for Murray load centers....for reference...any make will do.

http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/murray/murraycatalog/2008/08Murray_pdfs/08Murray_01/01_05.pdf

Lets go through this

1.) Install a 70 amp breaker in the 200 amp panel on the pole. 
2.) Pull in 3 #6 awg copper thwn conductors (H-H-N) and use one of your black #8's for the ground. Reidentify it as the equipment ground by wrapping green tape at each end over about 6 inches of the insulation. This will save you some dollars.
3.) Install a ground bar kit (for the make of panel) in the new main breaker panel if it doesn't have a factory one. You will have two bars the neutral and the ground.
4.) Drive a couple ground rods and run a #6 solid copper from the panel ground bar to those rods make it look like the below image. Only you won't be coming from the meter but I think you get the idea. be sure to use the direct burial ground rod clamps not anything else.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

One little thing to what I posted. The electrical code will only allow conductors larger than #6 awg to be reidentified for equipment grounds if they are not green or bare or green and yellow striped. So to be code compliant not necessarily safer you must pull in a green insulated #8 awg copper equipment ground. I'll let you decide. If cost isn't a big deal pull in the #8 copper green insulated equipment ground.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

Forgot to tell you not to pay any attention to those prices on the Murray link. Those are considerably higher than you will actually encounter at the big box stores or hardware.

Also be sure if you are going to operate on the murray panel for a while and a 3 wire feeder that you have the neutral bar bonded to the metal of the panel.

I'm not sure what part of the country you live in but ground rods can be a little tough to sledge hammer into the ground. a t-post driver works pretty good till you get down to where you can drive it with a sledge. the two alternatives to diving one straight down is to drive at a 45 degree angle or in a 30 inch trench. Vertically into the ground is preferred. The rental store will have hammer drills with ground rod chucks and these work very well to get the ground rod in.
For your information ground rods are for protection from lightning and large voltage events. They are designed to be a path for generated high currents to earth and get them off your premise wiring. They do not help breakers trip this is the job of the equipment grounds of the branch circuits and the ground wire in your feeder coming from the 200 amp panel.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*out to the barn for the eve.*

Hey Stubbie-

I'll probably be in the barn till about 9 pm your time. I'm going to wire in the lights and switch on the left side and split the outlets into two circuits like you suggested. That will be easy as I already had enough wires in the conduit for 3 total circuits to begin with. I will just use two of the three for that wall and the other for the back wall. I'll run an additional 2 circuits around to the right wall later. No big deal.

The ground here is very soft and sandy. Not a problem for driving in a ground rod. 

I'm 2 hours from any descent supply house or Home Depot. I will have to plan out what I need to make the needed changes and then run into the big town of Spokane!! Davenport doesn't have much in the way of Hardware stores. 

I sure appreciate your assistance since I am so new at this. This whole thing has been my first project. Nothing like starting big!!!!!

I'm 49 years old and have never had any electrical experience unless you consider being shocked at 29 years old an electrical experience....ha..ha. I'll get in touch tomorrow. THANKS AGAIN....YOU ARE GRRRRRRREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cyndi :clap:


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## HandyPete (Mar 23, 2008)

Hey Stubie, sorry to butt in. Do you really need to run a green bonding wire from the house if you install 2 new ground rods? What's the reasoning on that?

- pete

BTW one of the best threads I've read so far, Stubie is very good and Cyndi is on the ball!

and...I like the idea of new grounding rods, here in Québec it's mandatory if the sub-panel is located in a barn with animals. (poor critters hate stray currents)


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Bonsoir Pete .,,

Oui.,,

the NEC just changed the code not too long ago now we have to run 4 wire feeder to the subpanel location.



> I like the idea of new grounding rods, here in Québec it's mandatory if the sub-panel is located in a barn with animals.


 oui C'est vari.

Merci,Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Hey Stubie, sorry to butt in. Do you really need to run a green bonding wire from the house if you install 2 new ground rods? What's the reasoning on that?


Hello Handy

The green bonding wire is for an effective low impedance fault current path back to the service panel and then back to the center tap of the transformer (the source). This facilitates the opening of a circuit breaker in the event of a ground fault. I'm not sure what type conduit Cyndi used but I assume it is pvc.

The ground rods have nothing to do with the green bonding wire (equipment ground) in the feeder. The rods are for lightning and high voltage events, they do not clear faults. They are meant for property protection. the bonding wire or EGC is for human safety to open the circuit breaker in the event of fault to ground or bonded metal.


I believe Washington has required 4 wire feeders for a couple code cycles so she would have needed to do this to be compliant with state electrical codes.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi


Are you using the EMT as your equipment ground or are you pulling in a green equipment ground wire?

*Never work in that barn panel while it is hot go out to the pole and turn that 40 amp breaker off. And make freakin sure no one can turn it back on without you knowing that information. Tie your mean ass dog or goat to the pole to keep anyone away from it while your working on the electrical.
* 
Also to refresh your memory, you are going to need a 4 wire feeder from the pole service equipment to the new main breaker panel in the barn. 

At present you are using a 3 wire feeder thats OK but get this changed as soon as your able to do so. Be absolutely sure you have the neutral bar bonded to the metal of the panel at the barn while you use that 3 wire feeder.

When you get the new panel your going to do things differently. This will depend on the panel you buy but it will need two bars in it.. one will be for the neutrals (whites) and one will be for the bares and any greens. The neutral bar will be the one from the factory installed in the panel on insulators when you purchase it. If the panel has two bars in it then one may possibly be used as the ground bar but it depends so be sure you know how to do the bonding with the panel you buy . If not come back to this forum and we will help you figure it out. 

Remember with a 4 wire feeder you will not bond the neutral to the metal of the panel or to the ground bar. Only the ground bar will be bonded to the the metal. A ground kit is required when a panel only comes with one neutral bar. The factory mounting screws that come with the ground bar kit will do the required bonding. These kits will mount in predrilled holes in the back of the panel. The kits must be for the make of panel you purchase. They look like this.....might be smaller in size but you get the idea.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*Back again!!!*

Back again!! Did you miss me???? ha ha. Well I got the flourescent lights all hooked up and working for now. That is it until I get a new panel.

I did use underground pvc for the conduit from the main pole panel to the barn.

You wanted to know if I am using emt as equipment ground or pulling in a green ground wire. I don't think I am using anything at this time but for the new panel, I will pull in a green wire with the others like you suggested before. Is that what you mean or are you talking about the current panel????

Also, as far as working with the 40 amp breaker off, I GOT IT:thumbup: . I was electrocuted when I was 29 and it stopped my heart causing damage to the muscle. I am VERY careful!!!! I work on the panel and no one else is here. Good idea about the mean-ass dog or goat!!!!!!!:laughing: 

You also said that while I have the 3 wires going without the ground wire installed, the neutral bar should be bonded to the metal of the panel. I think it is but how can I be sure? Is it the flat shaped bar that goes from the bar and screws into the back of the panel??? Thanks again. Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey, can anyone tell me how I can import photos into my messages if need be??? That way if I am not sure what you are asking, I can send a picture. Thanks, Cyndi


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## junkcollector (Nov 25, 2007)

Cyndi,

one of the easiest things is to go to a site like photobucket.com and open up an account. Then upload all your photos there and cut and paste the links to the pictures in your posts.:thumbsup:

Stubbie,

Keep up the good work.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

Well I'm glad your using emt because you have to have an equipment ground. I would prefer you pull in #12 green for your branch circuits and not rely on the metal conduit. The conduit is allowed to be your equipment ground if you want but if it comes apart anywhere you have a big safety issue. 

I sure wish you had some knowledgeable help with your project but I'll do my best to get you through this from 2000 miles away.


The flat shaped bar if it is metal and connects to the neutral bar and is screwed into the panel back then that probably is the neutral bond. A picture would be nice.

Most photos have a file size that is too big for the manage attachements option at the bottom of the edit page. What you have to do is open a free account at a hosting site like photobucket or dropshots. I like dropshots. They allow free storing of pictures in an album format. You just upload your pics to the album then open the picture you want and right click on it and copy the image location then come to the edit page and click on the image icon just below the undo arrow. Paste in the image location and it will appear in your post.

You have taken on a pretty big project for your skill level so pay close attention to what we tell you. Be sure you have good solid connection to your metal boxes with your emt. Are you using gfci receptacles? Or gfci breakers?

It is very important ( your life important) that that emt is solidly connected all the way back to the subpanel. All fittings, boxes, and so forth. The emt is your equipment ground since you did not pull in ground wires. 

I sure wish you would have come here before starting this project.

Here is a little article to help you with the equipment grounding when using metal boxes and emt. Click on the article images to make them bigger

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=241


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- I did run ground wires from the panel to all of my outlets and lights. However, I don't have a ground rod installed from the panel to the ground yet and as you know I didn't run a ground wire from the main panel to the sub-panel. This is the next thing that I am going to do with the new panel that I purchase. I will run 4- #6 wires from the panel on the pole to the sub-panel in the barn as well as install a grounding rod. At least I think that is what you have advised on that part of the installation. I could pull the 3 #8 wires out and add a ground wire and run it back through temporarily, till I get the new panel and new size wiring if you think that would be the best thing to do. If it is the best thing to do at this point for safety, what size ground wire should I run through with the #8. Should it be the same size??? Also, should I go ahead and install 1 or 2 grounding rods??? If I do the above, I will also purchase an additional bar for the sub-panel so that I can separate the neutrals and grounds like it should have been done in the first place. If I do all of that, at least I would have a safer system until I can get a new panel and wiring. I won't be overloading any of the breakers as I will not be needing heaters and such till winter. I can have the new panel and 70amp breaker at the main panel done by then. What do ya think???

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Glad you have those ground wires..... 

Well my best advice is that if it isn't to big of a hassle pull out the # 8's and add a ground wire. If you stay with a 40 amp breaker it only needs to be a #10 awg ground wire with the #8's. Get the ground bar kit and add it to the panel. Your are going to remove that neutral bar bonding we spoke of earlier and install the ground bar. The ground rods can be added when you get the time in the next few weeks but get them installed soon. Your going to connect those to the ground bar you installed with a #6 solid bare ground wire. The big box will have it on a spool just have them cut how many feet you need. Put it inside some pvc conduit for protection till you get it underground to the rods.

Your ground bar kit will be for a Murray panel made now by Seimens. Look in your panel you should see a pair or pairs of holes for ground bar(s).

If you can post up some pictures of the panel with the cover off this will help but it's ok if you can't do that. 

So get the ground bar kit and some #10 green ground with thwn insulation. Pull out the 8's and reinstall with the #10 ground. *Unbond *the neutral bar install the ground bar and connect the feeder ground to the ground bar. You know where the others go. Only grounds on the ground bar including the ground rods #6. The branch circuit grounded legs (usually white also called neutrals) to the neutral bar.

At the 200 amp panel on the pole it is fine for grounds and grounded legs (white) to connect to the same bar it is supposed to be that way.

As an added note #8 thwn or other 75C rated wire can be protected by a 50 amp breaker. Give that a try you just might get by with that and good load balancing.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- Thanks once again. That is what I will do for now. I will get all the needed supplies this week and then I will do the temporary fix until I can get the new panel, 70 amp breaker and #6 wiring. I can always use most of the supplies for the existing panel in another building down the road. One that does not require so many circuits!!!!! 

I will try to get some photos to you. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I added a note on the last post at the bottom go back and read it. This might work out well for your needs and save the the cost of new wire and that 70 amp breaker.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I managed to erase the added note somehow.. I'll put it back. Here is a very good site for some good information and tables for you to look at. #8 thwn in conduit is good for 50 amps as long as you have 75C connections on the pole panel. It would have to be very old not to be rated for 75C. Follow the *4 wire* feeder diagram I posted earlier as a guide.

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/conductor/table310-16.htm


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

One last question to Stubbie for the night-

I looked at your link to the receptacle diagrams. My outlets have a ground wire from the panel to the green screw on the receptacle. I do not have a green ground screw in the metal box to the receptacle. Will that be o.k. after I change all the ground wires to the new ground bar that I install in the panel or do I need to have the ground wire to a screw in the metal receptacle box too?? Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Oops that was the ampacity table try this one.....:thumbsup:


http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/ind_table.htm


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Your receptacles are fine the way I read how you have them grounded...good job....have a nice evening and don't dream about those goats.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I'm sorry I misread how you have the receptacles connected to the equipment ground. There are actually a few ways but it would be best to connect a pigtail to the metal box along with the pigtail to the receptacle or switch. Connecting to the receptacle green screw only is incorrect. There are several situations where you don't have to connect to the green screw of the receptacle but you must have a pigtail to the metal box. 

You will need to get some grounding screws when you go to town. In the back of the metal boxes is a threaded hole for a 10-32 ground screw. Connect your pigtail under the screw










These work very well to connect your branch circuit grounds and pigtail from the receptacle the metal box. Or you can make you own.









Of course the number of grounds and pigtails will vary... below is a example of a ground entering and leaving and the associated pigtails.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- I got your message and will add the screws to my list. Good Night and more tomorrow!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Great.... have a nice evening you probably have a long day tomorrow.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi.

A little lesson for you so you understand why the importance of the equipment ground. All your metal is bonded to the equipment ground....boxes, conduit, metal yokes on your receptacles and switches. The equipment ground then goes all the way back unbroken to the 200 amp panel on the pole where it then bonds with the service neutral along with all your branch circuit neutrals and grounded legs. The service neutral then goes to the center tap of the transformer. All your current returns to the source. Fault current when something goes wrong also goes back to the source. The source being the utility transformer. The fault current follows the effective ground fault path that you build and put together as you wire your barn. If you have a fault as I have shown in the diagram below the fault current follows the green or bare safety ground wires wires back the the bonding with the service neutral at your 200 amp panel out on the pole. Then out the service neutral to the center tap of the transformer. This low impedance or resistance path allows enough current to flow to exceed the trip rating on your circuit breaker and cause the breaker to open the circuit and clear the fault. Keeps you from going through that little event when you were 29 years old. GFCI's also play an important role in what you doing out there in the barn. Anyway this diagram will give you a good idea of what happens if you have the bare part of a hot wire touch a metal box. In the case of the drawing lets say you skinned the hot wire pulling it through your conduit and the exposed bare part of the hot wire contacted the metal box. Click the image to enlarge.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Good Afternoon Stubbie!

I have spent most of the morning on the internet looking for needed parts at Home Depot and Lowe's. I do have a few questions.....Of Course.......

After a sleepless night thinking about this project, it seems to make more sense to me......correct me if I am wrong........ to just run the # 6 four wires a new panel. If I am going to pull the #8 wires out anyway, I may as well replace them with the #6 wires.

I just hate to do it the other way and then wonder if I did it good enough.

Lowe's has a GE panel. 100 amp with a Main breaker . It has 12 spaces and 24 circuits. It comes with four 20 amp breakers and a 24 hole ground bar. $54.00. 
Will that do?? Will a Cutler Hammer, SquareD or ITE 70 amp breaker fit my Challenger panel??? No one seems to have a Challenger Brand 70 amp breaker.

I am going to keep the 40 amp breaker off to the barn since I can do without the electric for now. In the mean time, I am also going to get all the grounding items completed. 

When you say I need to pigtail the ground wiring from the panel to a green screw in the back of the metal box, one that I install, does that mean I will end up with 3 green wires capped together? One from the panel , one from the light fixture box screw and and then one going on to the next light??? That's how I understand it.

Then for the duplex receptacles, I would have the ground coming from the panel to the receptacle box, a ground on the ground screw in the box, a ground on the receptacle and one going to the next receptacle making 4 wires capped together??

If I have that right, I will get busy and fix that portion of the system before I continue.

Let me know you electrical GURU!!!! Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- I've been thinking....yeah it does hurt!.... and I wanted to let you know why I decided to tackle this job in the first place. My dad was a Master Electrician and was visiting last August. He knew I needed electrical done but he has severe COPD and could't do the work as he had hoped. He stood by and told me everything that I needed to do. Or so I thought. 

After having an electrician stop by to look at some goats for sale last week, I told him about my electrical project and he took a look. To his surprise, and mine, he immediately observed the deficiencies.

When I called my dad, last week, who is 72 and asked him some questions, his response was....."oh, I thought we did run a #8 ground wire from the main panel to the sub-panel. and "Well I thought we did ground the light fixtures to the boxes and the receptacles. Although it breaks my heart, I think he is starting to forget.

At that point, I went onto the internet and found you. And for this I am greatful. Please bare with me and be as patient as you can be. I really want to understand and will do my best to do it right this time. I do understand the safety aspects while working on electrical and will take all the necessary precautions. Let's just take it slow and I am confident that together we can build a safe system for thebarn. I'm in no hurry. Better Safe Than Sorry!!!:yes: If I am taking up too much of your time, just let me know and we can take a break!!!!! Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Wow!!! I just calculated the cost of the new #6 wires. $500.00!!!! I guess if I do it this way it will have to wait till the late summer. Bummer.

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes copper has really gone up these last few years. I figured you would have sticker shock....


You have the grounding of your light fixtures and receptacle boxes figured correctly. So go ahead and do the fix.

The GE panel is fine. You may have to get an electrician to find the challenger breaker for you or go to a electrical pro supply. I'll check to see if I can find one ..can you get me the type of breakers off the spec sheet on the pole panel? Or maybe one of the other breakers...? Some common challengers would be C2,QCAL,RC or BQ2. You might call Bay Breakers in California or check this site out.....

http://www.baybreakers.com/catalog/search.html

This is what I would do under your circumstances. I would pull out the 8's and install a #8 green ground. You could go with a #10 if you want but if you go to 70 amps someday then you will need a #8. Install the new GE sub-panel. Find a 50 amp Challenger breaker or classified substitute. I'll find one for you if you can get me the correct type breaker for the panel. Challenger as 4 types to my knowledge for residential applications. Or a picture of one of them will work. This will give you a 50 amp feeder and that just might get you by even in the winter.

If you have to go to 70 amps and you get ready to pull in #6 thwn for 70 amps let me know on this forum and I just might have some on the truck.....:yes: Might cost you some shipping charges though.... right now I only have about 150' of #6 copper.

I understand about your DAD, don't sweat it, everything you have can be easily fixed. Enjoy your DAD it doesn't matter if he made a few mistakes after all these years. 

Any other questions?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Oh and Cyndi do not forget to pull in a pull string behind the #8's so you have something to pull the wires back in with...:thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for the reminder about the pull string. I remembered today but maybe not tomorrow.:laughing: 

If I don't hear from you soon, I will get in touch when I get all the grounding done in the outlets and light fixtures to go on to the next step. cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- By the way, it is snowing here and FREEZING outside so I will probably not get to the grounding changes for a few days. I'll also get you the Challenger breaker info then. After I am finished with the tedious little corrections, I will bug you again!!! In other words.......ENJOY YOUR BREAK FROM THE NEWBIE!!!! Have a great week and unless I have an imperative question for the electrical Guru, I'm signing off for now. Thanks a million.........Cyndi


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

Joba Fett said:


> It was meant for your listing, not the entire site.
> And it was very positive. Read it and learn.
> I'm not the one way over my head in this fabricated scenario.


I usually keep my mouth shut in these situations BUT. Dude. SHUT UP!!!!!! SO what if her letters are big. Whats that got to do with ANYTHING..Only posts in here I have ever seen from you is meaningless. Let her get the help she asked for and if SHE decides it's over her head, then SHE will make a decision to call someone.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Mr. 500-THANKS! I don't let what Joba has to say bother me. If it looks like an ass, acts like an ass and posts like an ass.......HE"S AN ASS !!!!:laughing:


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

Haha yeah. And to think guys like me getting shot at so that he can live the life he leads. But hey, not here to start a political debate, just had to say my peace. Its a great forum and I have had LOADS of help on my wiring dilemmas and I just hate that certain ones chime in with nothing but dumb idiotic things to say. Ill get off my soap box now. Back to the wiring at hand!!  :thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Mr. 500- We can just consider the source. I have seen several of his other postings and none of them are worth reading. It's too bad that he is offended or upset because newbies like me, man or woman have the capacity to learn a trade that has probably taken him years to learn and probably still has not mastered. What low self-esteem he has!!!!! Probably not breast fed as a baby!!!!!:laughing: :laughing: He needs to talk to Dr. Phil:yes: :yes: Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

Freezing..... its 73 here in Kansas today just got in from taking my lab for a walk......I'll be around when you warmup and we can continue. In the mean time good luck and by the way you are doing fine.

You have asked very good questions and tells me you want to get things right. This is a DIY site so ask any questions you feel you need to.


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Hi Cyndi
> 
> Freezing..... its 73 here in Kansas today just got in from taking my lab for a walk......I'll be around when you warmup and we can continue. In the mean time good luck and by the way you are doing fine.
> 
> You have asked very good questions and tells me you want to get things right. This is a DIY site so ask any questions you feel you need to.


Totally agree.
LOL Stubbie I mentioned your name in my "It Is Done" post :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes, I saw that and thank you. I'm glad you took the time to say thanks to everyone cause we have a a great group of professionals and Diyers on this site who deserve equal credit.


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

YES I totally agree with that. Some are well....you know ..But majority are good people and they have taught me a lot. and other stuff I had to figure out on my own. BUT Im use to that being partly married to Uncle Sam LOL. Thanks AGAIN!!!!!

Mike


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*Goin Shoppin!!*

Well I'm making my list and checking it twice for the two hour drive to Home Depot. Don't want to forget anything.:no: I have been reading other posts and need your opinion on what panel I should buy. I have always heard that Square D and Cutler Hammer are the panels to buy if possible. I was going to get a GE, just because that one showed up on the Home Depot site first for a descent price. After reading some posts that say they don't like the GE slims, I'm thinking maybe I should go with a panel that has the double slims for one slot like what was mentioned for a better contact???? 

Also, when I buy a new panel, should I stick with all new breakers of the same manufacturer of the panel?? If some of the other breakers from my Murray (seimens and GE breakers) fit the new panel should I use them or not? I would rather spend a little more if that is recommended.

Shopping list so far: 1- Main breaker panel 100-125 amp, Appropriate breakers, Appropriate ground kit, # 8 ground wire for 140 feet, #6 bare wire for ground rods to panel, 50 amp breaker for main panel at house (Challenger). GFCI receptacles. Ground screws for correcting the ground system in boxes.

For later:
 1/2" box connectors (screw type), 1/2" emt couplings (screw type), 1/2" emt conduit (for additional lighting and outlets,  rectangle boxes/covers, octagon boxes/covers, duplex receptacles.

Already have left over #12 wire spools-black, red, white, green. Ceramic light fixtures, some connectors and, emt conduit and couplings.

ANYTHING ELSE????????


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Shopping list so far: 1- Main breaker panel 100-125 amp, Appropriate breakers, Appropriate ground kit, # 8 ground wire for 140 feet, #6 bare wire for ground rods to panel, 50 amp breaker for main panel at house (Challenger). GFCI receptacles. Ground screws for correcting the ground system in boxes.

I like the blue....

Yes that sounds good. But get a 100 amp panel if you can 125 just isn't necessary. At 140 feet we are really pushing to keep the voltage drop within reason using #8. Remember you also have circuit runs out to pastures... so that distance is how far out from the barn panel??? I don't know what your voltage is at the pole panel but assuming 240 volts you will be close to 230 at the barn panel using 140 feet as the distance and calculating 50 amps at any given time as a maximum non-continuous load. Anything under 50 amps improves the voltage drop.
Square d or cutler hammer are fine... personally I like cutler hammer (ch) but really any panel is going to be good. Usually they have contractor packages that come with several breakers. But always use the same maker of circuit breaker that matches the panel maker. You have a Murray out in the barn so get another one if you can and use the breakers you already have.
As for gfci receptacles you only need one per branch circuit. Put normal receptacles downstream of the gfci and wire them from the "load terminals" of the gfci. Generally put your lights on one circuit and the receptacles on another. Don't have to but a good idea.

Do your gfci's like this....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Good Morning!!! Morning here anyway! I wish I could send a drawing of the layout. I tried importing a photo yesterday for kicks, obviously it didn't work. I must be missing a step in your photo instructions or something.

The 200 amp panel at the house is approx. 140 feet from the barn panel. From the barn panel one underground run goes out to the left approx. 60 feet to a pasture. The other three underground runs go 70 feet (one to the direct right) and another run goes 160 feet and then continues to another location on another circuit which is approx. 300 from the panel at the end. Each of those circuits have a light fixture with 2-150 watt spots that are sensored and a duplex outlet for the trough heaters. (One trough heater on a duplex, one sensored light fixture per circuit.) with the exception of one which just has 2-150 sensored spots for arena lighting and a duplex receptcle which isn't used. The present trough heaters that were used this winter are 1250 watts each but if need be I can buy more of the 500 watt heaters for 2 of the circuits because they are smaller goat troughs, but I need the larger heater for the larger trough in the horse pasure. 

With this information, do I scrap the #8 wire idea and go with the #6 in a few months when the budget allows? Either way is o.k. with me if that's what I need to do.

Lights and receptacles are already on separate circuits. You mentioned in the beginning of our contact that I should split my receptacles to have 3 on one circuit and 3 on another for the left wall of the barn instead of 6 on one circuit because of my use. I am still going to do that as well and put a GFCI in the first one from the panel on each circuit.... right?

I was also reading on another posting some information about 2 circuits using the same nuetral. That is how mine is set up on the left of the barn. I have 3 circuits in one conduit with one ground and two neutral wires. The first set of 3 outlets will have its own hot, neutral and shared ground. The second circuit will have its own hot, shared ground (all 3 circuits on same ground) and shared neutral with the third circuit. Sound right?? My question by reading some of the other posts is about how to hook them up in the panel on the right breakers to balance the load????? This is where a photo of the new panel will come in handy and I guess that would be the best time to show me. 

I ran my different circuits with different colored hot wires to keep it simple. One black one red and another red marked with tape at both ends. 

Originally I was going to have the 6 outets on the left on one circuit, I was going to continue on with the other two circuits, one for the back wall (shop area) and one for the right of the barn. Now because I will be splitting the 6 outlets on the left, I will use two circuits for that and then go on with the last circuit to the back wall and add a run with two new circuits from the panel in a new conduit run to the right side for the same set up as the left (6 outlets on two circuits. Does it matter if the 6 left outlets that will be split 3/3 use the same neutral wire or can the last 3 outlets on the left side share the neutral with the shop outlets on the rear of the barn?? There will be 6 shop outlets (duplexes) on the rear wall for some woodworking tools. Nothing major. 

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

The general idea is to get enough voltage to the barn to deliver the needed amperage that is being utilized by what you are operating at the barn. Then you have to be sure to get enough voltage to the farthest heater or trough from the barn sub-panel. So if we get 50 amps at 230 volts to the barn then we use the 230 volts as a starting point to size the wire for the branch circuits going out to the pastures. 220 volts or close is about as low as you want to get at the end of the circuit. Since those circuits are already in place and I assume they have been working fine then I also assume the right wire size was used on those particular branch circuits. The 300 and 160 foot runs need bigger wire than 14 or 12. I'm glad your not using any motors or electric pumps way out like that.

As for shared neutral circuits, these are called multiwires and they indeed help with voltage drop. If you balance the load exactly on the two hots (on different legs) that share the same neutral all return current will cancel and your voltage drop only is calculated on the one way distance to the heater or what ever your using. None the less they are very useful to control voltage drop. You use a double pole common trip breaker it looks like this...notice every other receptacle is connected to a different leg.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

All branch wiring is # 12!!!! Yet another glitch??? It appears that all was working fine through this winter. Now what?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Using the word Ass hardly makes one a vulgar potty mouth. If you came here to push your anti lib agenda please go over to "My Space" where you spend most of your time with the other adolescents. This is a electrical forum where people come for advice. Which you are not skilled enough to give. Take your labels you tack on people and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.

How long do you think you will still be obsessed with star wars? If you liken yourself to the role JOBA FET played then hopefully Luke Skywalker will kick your "ASS" into that same hole you ended up in during the movie.

Be Gone or perish evil one......:thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Joba-Great comeback!! What time do you get out of preschool today?? You can use this one too. "I know you are but what am I?" How about "You're not the boss of me!! or "I'm telling!" You don't immpress anyone, you little man. You just have a little boy bad attitued and I'm sure that's not all that's little.

"Nothing can stop the man/woman with the right mental attitude from acheiving his/her goal; Nothing on earth can help the man (little man) with the wrong attitude. " Original Quote from Thhomas Jefferson-Tweeked by Cyndi ....................Grow up.:laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi said:


> All branch wiring is # 12!!!! Yet another glitch??? It appears that all was working fine through this winter. Now what?


Nothing will change until you start adding more load to the circuits as
you expand your needs. Stay the course and don't change a thing except the ground in the feeder and lets see how things work out for you. Right now you need to be code compliant and new main breaker panel fixes the disconnect issue... bigger breaker (50 amp) gives you more load capability that is still reasonable with voltage drop on #8. If you increase the load on those long runs and it is still resistive type loads like heaters and lights then you will just not generate as much heat from the element and dimmer lights due to the voltage drop from the amperage demands. If the 20 amp breaker doesn't trip and it probably won't unless you exceed 20 amps you will just not have the amperage needed to operate the heaters a peak levels or the lights at their brightest.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Stubbie- If we ignore him, maybe he will just go away like the little child that he is. He just wants attention, huh? I notice that his input has the same slant on everything he posts. He likes reading his own words or something!!! Not impressive to anyone else but himself.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

O.K. Stubbie-I'm goin Shoppin!!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Lord help us... a woman goin shopping in the electrical department....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Never made it to town!!! One of those days. I called my hubby and he is going to pick up th #8 ground wire as well as the ground screws and GFCI receptacles. I'm going to try to make it to town tomorrow or Friday for the panel and the rest of the goods. At least I can work on the feed and the grounding portion of the job until I get the rest.

Thanks, Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I can't say shopping in the electrical department floats my boat, but shopping in the tool department does!!!! :boat: 

Yeah, I like the flower department too!!!!!! I'm looking forward to stocking my new shop! That is if I don't fill it completely with goats!!! I need to save some room for the fun stuff.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Are you able to get your album uploaded on dropshots?.... if so... open your album on dropshots. double click the photo to open and enlarge it. Right click the photo. click "copy image location" or whatever your showing for copy the image location as a selection.
Go to the reply page of chatroom for the thread you want. Click the image icon 4th from the right. Right click and Paste the location in the text bar. Click ok and the image will appear in your post. If your not showing a image location to copy then right click on ' properties' on the bottom and copy the location. then go back to chatroom and paste it to the image icon text bar.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Now that I got the photo thing going, I will take some photos of the project and get them to you as soon as the rain stops. Probably tomorrow. Supposed to be raining all day today. I just looked out the window and now it is snowing AGAIN!!!!!! P.S. The photo is a small portion of our back yard.

Have a good one!!!! Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes you can reduce the photo but just leave it big we like stuff that is easier to see. Is that your place?

OOPs I guess it is......


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I've been reading all the stuff that I can on this forum for electrical. I came across one that I want to get clear in my head....at least to the point of some understanding anyway.

It is regarding two circuits that share a common neutral.

I understand that the two circuits need to be wired into two separate breakers that are on different Phases.

When my dad told me how to wire the panel, I had the regular size 20 amp beakers in each slot. He said to always run one red and one black wire for two different circuits in one conduit run. This I did. He then said to always make sure that the red wire is on one breaker and the black is on the one next to it. He didn't explain why. Now I think I get it.

However, now I have two slims in each breaker slot. Therefore, I would not want to put a red wire one slim breaker and the black on the other if they are in the same breaker slot...right???? I would want to skip that slim and put the wire in the breaker above that one on a different breaker slot.

When my dad said one breaker red, one black he didn't clarify that it was the breaker slot that was critical. Do I get this right???


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

Your Dad told you correctly. A 'Multiwire' circuit as you are descibing uses the same neutral between the two hot wires. Those hot wires must be connected to opposite busses or 'phases' if you like. This is so that the neutral current returning on the shared neutral from the loads those two hot wires are serving is subtracting on the neutral and not adding ... so that it will not be overloaded. 



> However, now I have two slims in each breaker slot. Therefore, I would not want to put a red wire one slim breaker and the black on the other if they are in the same breaker slot...right???? I would want to skip that slim and put the wire in the breaker above that one on a different breaker slot.


Absoluetly correct! Above or below if your panel has two vertical rows of breakers. The slimlines (tandems) you are using are single pole so connection of one hot wire to another slim on a different buss or leg is required. See the below image but *note that this panel does not allow* *tandems to be installed next to each other*. So use your imagination and say that it does. One is a slim (tandem) the one across is a full size both are on the same bus stab and the same leg. In order two have a multiwire with shared neutral *using slims* I would need to install one either above or below the one you see in the image. One hot to each one will result in a multiwire like you are describing.

Multiwires have other requirements one being that your neutrals to all your receptacles must be pigtailed to the receptacle so that if you take out the receptacle you will not break or open the neutral. Doing so and then restoring power to the circuit will place high voltage on the circuit much like a 240 volt branch circuit that has no neutral. This will not be good for the stuff you have plugged in that only wants 120 volts. 

My advice is to use full size double pole breakers and you can't screw the opposite leg thing up. Also the new 2008 code requires them and no longer allows using individual breakers to support a multiwire circuit.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Great thread you guys. Maybe I missed something, but is there a reason for not using Aluminum feeder? Quite a bit cheaper. I saw the post about the cost.

Ok so tell me about the pictures. Stubbie is that you? Cyndi is that from around your place? I like pictures. :thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

jrclen- Just a little bit of heaven on earth here in Washington. We have 20 acres with 45 animals!! A lot of work, and a lot of rewards!!!! Thanks for asking. And Spread the word on the great job Stubbie is doing for me!!!! What a patient guy to help out a Newbie like me!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi John

Cyndi has a conduit buried already with 3 #8 thwn coppers installed. I haven't asked Cyndi the size of conduit that is in the ground already. An aluminum feeder is a great idea if the conduit will allow it. I was suggesting to just stick with the THWN number 8's and add the ground sized large enough for a 100 OCPD to match her new panel in the event she would ever need that as she expands her animal shelter. Right now she has the #8's on a 40 breaker. She can go up to a 50 breaker and at 140' she will have a reasonable voltage drop though not the best. She has indicated the #8's on the 40 have been getting the job done with her present load demands. So we are going to go up to a 50 and only add the ground #8 to be compliant with the feeder needing to be 4 wires. (Washington State requirement). I suggested #6 copper later on only because I know the conduit is large enough to accept the #6's if copper thwn. If she has 1" PVC then she could get 3 #4 al plus reuse the ground she has ...so your suggestion is warranted knowing the conduit size.

Sorry that is not me.......:no: that is HonkerinMO and AndyInATL. You would have to go back to the HotTub thread to see how they got together but the moderators moved all the good stuff to the off subject area. I think they were jealous of the Romance that got started as we helped Honker fix a faulty gfci breaker.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Guys! The conduit is larger than 1" as there is a clearly marked 1" pvc conduit next to it and the one that I ran is larger. It says TC2 #8 on it with a bunch of other stuff but no clear size. So it is at least 1-1/2". Overkill huh???


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi again Cyndi

Sorry stepped out for a burger at my favorite spot. John is correct aluminum is cheaper and it is fine to use for a feeder. The thing to remember is that aluminum needs to be larger than copper. So to have aluminum on a 70 amp breaker like we were talking earlier with #6 copper you will need #4 aluminum XHHW or other wet location insulation. Just look for the W on the wire labeling.

And one point to consider with long runs of electrical wire is voltage drop, using these wire sizes above we are at the teetering edge for a reasonable design at the distances your giving us. If you can install a bigger wire than #4 in aluminum at a price you can afford then by all means do so. A good wire size in aluminum would be #1 awg at 65 amps and 140 feet. That is close to 2% voltage drop on the feeder. The ground will also have to increase in size.

But the conduit has to be large enough so let me post back in a few minutes with that information.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie-I was wrong on the distance from the pole panel to the barn. It is 100 feet plus an additional 10 feet to run up to the panels. Total of 110 feet. Sorry. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thats ok Cyndi. 110 feet it is. That brings the copper #8's we are planning closer into the center of the ballpark we are wanting. So lets just stick with that until you get ready to have a bigger feeder to the barn if you need it someday. Right now you are only buying one wire for the ground. We will talk aluminum if you upgrade... unless you are in a change of mind.

The other thing that concerns me is you said you had a 300 foot run of #12 copper out to a pasture. Is that on a multiwire shared neutral or a 120 volt circuit on a single breaker?


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

two circuits/shared neutral.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

By the way, I had a building inspector come by today for the new building that houses the sub-panel. He didn't even check it. I had the breaker off and was in the process of pulling wire. That got me to thinking, should I have had a permit?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok Cyndi

Let me see if I can explain this easily. A shared neutral multiwire is just like a 240 volt circuit with no neutral when considering voltage drop....if for example you have a load on each hot wire that is the same in amps and both loads are at the exact same distance from the panel. This is the ideal situation as only the one way distance is calculated in the voltage drop because there is no return current on the neutral or at least very little.
So lets say I had two of your 1200 watt 120 volt heaters at 300 feet in the same water trough. Each heater plugged into gfci receptacles served by the hots wires of the multiwire. If I use a voltage drop calculator it assumes the one way distance of 300 feet to be one half the distance round trip for 120 volts So it calculates the distance to be 600 feet for 120 volts.

The multiwire is serving two 10 amp balanced loads at 300 feet not 600 because current is not returning to the panel over the neutral. So when I enter this into a calculator using 120 volts 10 amps I set the distance to 150 feet so that it will calculate 300 feet not 600. This gives me a drop of 6 volts or 114 volts at each heater if we have 120 volts at the panel. This is a 5% voltage drop. You don't want much more than that on resistive heater loads.

Now in contrast lets just run one heater a 1200 watts (10 amps) on 120 volts 300 feet. When I calculate this I will get a result from a round trip of 600 feet because all the current is traveling on the neutral back to the panel. That will be 12 volts of drop or 108 volts at the heater 10% voltage drop. Notice this is double the drop of a multiwire branch circuit with balanced loads at the same distance.

Now it gets a little trickier when we vary the loads and the loads aren't at the same distances but the voltage drop advantages are still there balanced loads or not. 

If however no load is operating on one leg..... for instance lets say you unplug one of those heaters on the multiwire example I gave.. you now have lost all the advantages of the multiwire because you now just have one 120 volt circuit operating and all its current is returning to the panel and source so your at 600 feet of voltage drop instead of 300. The advantage in voltage drop comes when cancellation of the neutral current is occurring when both legs of the multiwire are operating loads.

So if you have multiwires to those heaters in the pasture be sure to have both legs operating something like the heaters and the thermostats set the same. Balance the loads between legs best you can.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi, that is a pretty place. I live way out in the sticks in Wisconsin, I appreciate country views. And I know how well Stubbie does on electrical advise. He is an ace. You're in good hands.

Stubbie, I didn't mean to muddy the waters with the alum feeder. I thought I read a post in the middle about pulling new conductors in to increase the sub panel size. I didn't think that was you in the photo. When I was that young the pictures were all black and white. :laughing:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Morning! I think I get most of what you have explained about voltage drop. I will have to read it over several times before it all makes sense. The Heaters that I have (don't know if there is any other kind) do not have a thermostat that I can regulate. They are simply heaters that you drop into a tank with a waterproof chord that plugs into the receptacle. So if I understand it, they may come on at different times as the temperature changes in each trough causing an unbalanced load. Is that what I should understand. If so, how can I remedy that? Or should I not worry about it at this time? I have till this next winter to get it all right so you tell me what I need and I will get r done!

Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

P.S. None of the 4 outside receptacles are gfci. Another change to make!!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I went out to work on the barn and just in case, I checked the 40 amp breaker at the pole and someone had turned it on!!! Never assume that it is the way that you left it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess the neighbor wanted to see the barn lights or something but never said anything to me about it and didn't put it back the way I had it. 

Well, I am pulling the breaker out today so that doesn't happen again!!!! Now I can see how terrible accidents could happen if you just don't double check.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

John

You did read where we were thinking about new conductors. So the aluminum feeder is an excellent advice. Cyndi is operating on a budget so we are trying to get a reasonable design at minimum cost. My concern was conduit size which Cyndi has clarified. So most likely an aluminum feeder is in the works later unless she prices aluminum wire and thinks the cost is within her budget. I'm not sure if the big box stores carry aluminum xhhw in sizes smaller than 1/0. 

Anyway good advice John.

Cyndi

See if you can get a per foot price on aluminum xhhw wire size #3 this will give you 3% drop or better for 65 amps on the feeder at around 50 cents per foot I think. OCPD will stay a 70 as we were talking earlier in the thread. As John said copper has gone through the roof and since your conduit is larger than 1" this is a great way to go.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Morning Cyndi

I thought I told you to tie your bad ass (oops I'm being vulgar) dog to that pole....

Ok my previous reply was addressing the issue of having more power for the barn as we discussed earlier. #6 copper is higher in cost per foot than al #3 so that is what i'm getting at and you still need a ground. The ground if aluminum needs to be#6 or a use a#8 copper. I really didn't think you had conduit larger than one inch so that's what I get for assuming.

So heres the decision... if your budget doesn't allow all new wires in aluminum for a higher amperage feeder then just do the #8 copper ground with what you already have. Plus the other stuff.

If you can afford aluminum then the design gets even better for future expansion. Let us know. 

So your basically deciding on buying one #8 ground for an average design that will get you by on your budget. Or deciding to use aluminum and changing out the entire feeder, as John correctly pointed out, for a better design. It's pretty much a cost thing. The change out to an aluminum feeder will be more cost than one #8 copper but it may fit your budget.

If the heaters do not have adjustable thermostats ( I've done several of these trough heaters by the way) then they may have a fixed temp thermosatat and that is good or if they stay on all the time that is also good. Just operate your heaters together and don't unplug any so that one leg is not being used.... since your using 12 awg at that distance. There really isn't any harm when you operate resistive loads like heaters and lights. You just don't get the heaters to reach the peak temps they are designed for and the lights may be a tad dimmer than normal.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I already got the # 8 copper stranded ground and will price the alum today! Thanks. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thats fine Cyndi.

You can use it with an aluminum feeder down the road unless you want to change things now. So in other words you will need 3 aluminum wires plus that copper ground if you choose.

If affordable I would consider how much you intend to grow over what you have out at the barn and change things now. If you dont see any more change than what we have discussed I would just put in the ground wire with the #8 coppers and see how it works out. This will give you 50 amps noncontinuous load if you put a 50 amp breaker in the pole panel. I really think that will work for you at this time.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

O.K.- This is what Home Depot has. #2 alum black @46 cents per foot or #4 alum black @37 cents per foot. Lowes has #4 alum @ 30 cents a foot and a 3 wire # 2 @1.39 per foot. Whacha think???? Obviously if #4 works I can go with Lowes. If not will I use the #2 single wires or the 3 wire combo???


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

by the way, I totally screwed up figuring the copper #6. I don't know why but I was thinking 4 number 6 wires. At 126.00 per wire, that was $500.00!!! In reality, with the #8 ground at $65.00 and the 2 # 6 copper it would have been $320 bucks. Duh.

If #2 or #4 works, that will still be cheaper, if not I will probably have to go to an electrical supply house right??


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

If your sure the conduit is at least 1 1/4 inch then go with the #2 at home depot and the #8 copper ground you already have,... I need to now what kind of wire that 3 wire combo is before I can say if it is ok but the cost is the same either way.

#2 aluminum will set you up for a 90 amp feeder and that is great I wouldn't want any more demand out at the barn than that without a service upgrade.

Remember your service supplies both the house and the barn so don't expand too much and cut your house short of power.

With #2 you can install a 90 amp breaker or any breaker less that will accept that size wire. I really think a 70 will do you but installing a 90 now will fill the bill for your new panel which is 100 amps or will give your 125 amps panel 90 amps instead of the 40 it has at present at not much more cost. Then if you need we can address any problems you have with the long runs at the barn.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm just gonna quit figuring while I'm not too far behind!!! I need 3 alum #2 wires not 2 of them right????? One for the neutral and 2 for the hot??? Plus the #8 ground that I already have.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I called Lowe's again on the 3 wire. It has two 2 guage and one 4 guage wire in it. Yokee Dokee???? He says it is for direct burial or conduit.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

No....I'd just say you know what it takes to get him to agree with you.....:thumbsup:

It is a beautiful day here after a bunch of rain yesterday. I'm going fishing for awhile I'll be back on this afternoon late.

If you get the aluminum it is much bigger wire and takes more effort to get it through the conduit. Use wire pulling lubricant like Ideal 77 or clear guide. Have someone feed the wires into the conduit while applying the lubricant as you go. Use a conduit pull string rather than the #8 wires its easier to tie off on the pulling grip (see below). Put some lube on the start of the new wires before putting them in the conduit. 

Use a pulling grip like this in the below link....Put it on one of the #2's and tape and stager the remaining wires. Don't have a big ball of wires taper them!!!

http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/kln34.html

Its very hard Cyndi to go over everything. Also do you remember if you have a lot of bends in the conduit if you have more than a couple 90's you're really going to have a hard time with these large wires.. so maybe you can explain how your conduit is assembled before we go any farther.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Have fun fishing!!! I AM JEALOUS, I LOVE TO FISH!!!!!

This will be waiting for you when you get back with your huge fish tales, I mean huge fish!!!

From the main panel the conduit runs down into the ground with a 90 underground heading toward the barn. It's straight from there till ya get to the sub panel and it has a 90 underground and then goes up to the sub panel. Not bad huh?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

You can also put all the cables in one grip if you like but I have had better success not doing that but here is a link to show you how to get the right size pulling grip.
You can also be resourceful use one of the #8's to pull with and use the #8 ground to tie to but if it comes loose or breaks in the conduit that really sucks.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/kp.html


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Just saw your post before leaving .....that is as good as it gets. You are wiser than you may think in this electrcial stuff.


Fish for dinner tonight!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

In most cases, would I be able to get a cable grip cheaper on-line or at a supply house?? I hate to spend $79.00 if I am only going to use this tool once. But, you got me kinda leery to pull it with the #8 as it might break you say. That would suck!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

Home depot or Lowes has them much cheaper probably will be greenlee brand.. If you want use a couple of your #8's to a #2 just be sure to get them connected really good. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pull the whole works on the #8 ground Especially since only two 90 sweeps in the conduit. I'm just trying to be cautious. If they have a grip for a #2 awg at the big box it should'nt be any where near that outrageous price of $79.00 you saw on that link. It just makes life much easier than taping and twisting and cussin trying to get wires hooked together to make a pull like you have.

Also don't measure too close but be sure to get an accurate distance. Add several feet to the exact measurement. The absolute worst thing that could happen is the wires not be long enough.....yuck... and you will think of a better word than "ass" if that happens.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Are ya back yet??? How many fish TALES......I mean fish tails did you come back with? What kind of fish were you fishing for anyway back there? We live just a hop, skip and a jump from a HUGE lake and River. We have lived here 3 years and I have yet to go fishing. My hubby is not into fishing but says he would take me, but no boat yet. I guess I could fish off the shore. I bought a license last year...it went unused.

Well, I have thought long and hard and some discussion with Randy, my other half. Unless I stay awake all night and change my mind, I am going to pull the existing #8s out, add a #8 ground , run it back through the feeder conduit, get a new panel and buy a 50 amp Challenger breaker for the main panel for now. Once I get everything all wired in the way it should be (grounded), in the late summer I will just pull the #8s out, run the alum. with the copper ground #8 and put a 70-90 amp breaker in...so lets get this party started!!!!!!!:thumbup: 

Do you need any pictures now of anything??? Any exact measurements??? By the way, if the panel knock outs don't match the conduit that I have already run for lights and outlets in the left of the garage, should I buy some kind of flex conduit to match it up or try to do some off-set bends. So far my 90 bends are perfect but not sure about off-sets. I guess I could practice on some scraps, huh?? After all it's gotta be PURTY!!!!!!!!!

Talk to you all later.
Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

I don't have to go far to fish.. about 5 miles. I went fishing for crappie I only caught 8 of the beggers but enough for dinner they are in the oven as we speak. I was only gone about two hours ...it started to rain again..:furious:

Ok I guess we have gone full circle so that is fine and it should get you by for the summer.

If I understand you correctly your conduit isn't lining up with the knockouts at the panel. You should always start at the panel and build your conduit runs from there. So if that is the case then you will have to buy some pre made offsets and hope they work out or bend your own.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

The conduit runs line up with the existing panel perfectly cause I did start at the panel. My question is, if they don't line up with the new panel, what can I do? You just answered my question though.

Although I like the idea that jrclen had about the aluminum wiring, it will be quicker for me to continue with your original plan and that will give me a little more time to budget for the new wiring.

And if I am understanding everything so far, when I am all done with the original plan and all of my other wiring, the only thing that I will have to do to upgrade the service wires to the sub-panel is to pull the 8s and put the aluminum wiring in with a ground and larger breaker in the main. Is that correct??

Maybe by the time I get everything done, in a few weeks, I will be able to get the alum wiring anyway and BINGO! It will be Great!!

But if not, at least I have a safe system to work from and the other will come at the end of summer at the very latest.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> And if I am understanding everything so far, when I am all done with the original plan and all of my other wiring, the only thing that I will have to do to upgrade the service wires to the sub-panel is to pull the 8s and put the aluminum wiring in with a ground and larger breaker in the main. Is that correct??


Yes, that is correct.

Sorry I didn't realize you were talking about the new panel of course you would since the other one is existing....duh....

Yep you just have to undo some of it back to the first device box and redo the run to the new sub.

Hasn't this been fun.....:thumbsup:

Be sure to seperate the ground and neutral in that sub look at the graphic back on post 14.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I have all your graph, charts etc. in a notebook to refer to when I need. Thank you so much for the effort!!! They definitely are going to come in handy in the next couple days.

I hope you don't feel like I waisted your time with the decision to follow your first plan. I still needed the other infor for the near future anyway.... sorry.

You have to remember, a woman has the right to change her mind again and again. That is just nature!!!!!!!!!! It's written in our genetics:laughing: 

By the way, how were your fish? My cookies were great!!! What does crappie tast like....Walleye or trout or ???? I like Walleye, halibut, shark, swordfish and any other mild tasting fish. Not much for the strong flavored kind. Trout is good too if it is prepared right. I had fresh salmon on the barbecue one time. It was the best. I haven't made it since. I don't even remember how I did it but it was fish-o-licious!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You did not waste my time. I'm retired so that is something I have. I was glad to help. If you learned something then it was all worth it.

Crappie are mild tasting white flesh and similar to walleye. They were delicious with a noodles and cream sauce. By gosh I think I'll go catch some more tomorrow...


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Hi Cyndi
> 
> I don't have to go far to fish.. about 5 miles. I went fishing for crappie I only caught 8 of the beggers but enough for dinner they are in the oven as we speak. I was only gone about two hours ...it started to rain again..:furious:


Do the crappie out your way get to be any size? We tear crappie up here in alabama when the season hits. That and bream too. We have caught some nice crappie so far. Few pounds a piece make for some good eating. Just hate ripping off them scales . Catfish are a LOT easier lol. Ok back to Electricity 201 :thumbup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Just hate ripping off them scales


I filet them no messing with the scales and boneless. 

A 2 lb crappie is a big fish here, we catch them but not a lot of them the average in my area is probably 3/4 lb.

You're making me hungry talkin that way.....:thumbup:


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## mr500 (Mar 8, 2008)

Down here usually they are on avg about 2-4 lbs IF you get on a good mess of them. We usually stay out most of the night catching 30-50 of them. Pretty fun stuff!! We toss the whole thing over in the pan.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Good Morning! I sold one of my paintings this morning and made some bucks!!! That was a nice surprise. So.................guess what?............................Aluminum wire it is!!!!!!!! Randy is going to pick everything up for me at the Home Depot late today on his way home and I will start tomorrow morn.

Hasn't this been a roller coaster ride??? By the way, I have a fishin joke for ya but it's a long one so I will send it later. No time for now, I gotta get some housework done while I have the chance. Thanks! Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I'm starting to get a little dizzy....

Your going to need help pulling the wire.

Remember you have 4 wires. The ground bar will be the bonded to the metal of the panel the neutral bar will not. So green screw or whatever bonds the neutral bar to the metal of the panel you do not want it installed and if it is installed remove it. Your #8 ground in the feeder will connect to the ground bar as will the #6 to the ground rod(s) all your equipment grounds (probably green) in your branch circuits will connect to the ground bar. You can double the grounds if they are the same size.
All your grounded legs or neutrals if you prefer will connect to the neutral bar.

To visuallize the separation of grounds and neutrals this is the idea....Your grounds are for wiring or equipment faults to allow the fault current to flow to the ground bar onto the equipment ground ran with the feeder conductors. Then flows off the feeder equipment ground onto the neutral bar in the 200 amp panel which is bonded to the service neutral that goes to the center tap of the transformer. This is where the fault current flows to.....the source of the premise wiring which is the transformer.
If you were to install the green bonding screw in the neutral bar at the sub panel...that screw goes thru the metal of the panel connecting it or bonding it to the neutral bar.....but....since that metal of the panel is also bonded to the ground bar you create a parallel path for current to flow on. 

Current should never be on the equipment ground wires unless there is a fault and then it will only be there until the circuit breaker opens...a blink of the eye. However neutral current is allows flowing on the branch circuit grounded legs or neutrals back to the neutral bar of the sub-panel. If you install the green bonding screw you give that neutral current a way to get to the equipment ground wires. Understand that current will take all paths to get back to the source, man made or otherwise, it will even use the earth if it has to. So current will split 1/2 will go on the green screw and travel to the the metal of the panel to the ground bar onto the feeder ground and to the panel at the pole. The other 1/2 of the current will flow off the neutral bar of the sub panel to the feeder neutral back to the pole panel. So you have current on the feeder neutral and the feeder equipment ground. You do not want neutral current on the equipment ground because this poses a shock hazard on the metal of the panel since your ground bar is bonded to it. By removing or not installing that green screw you have broken the path to the equipment ground bar and have now separated the grounds and neutrals as they should be. If you look.... the neutral bar is always on non-conductive insulators that keep it off the metal of the panel. The only way to connect the neutral bar to the metal is to do it intentionally with that green screw or other means.

Your lesson for the day....


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Gaylord? What is he? Are they good to eat...... Just joking


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie!!!! I need you asap. Randy is at Home Depot and they are trying to tell him that it is all the wrong stuff and that it can't be done the way we talked. They say we need a 90 in the main panel and have to buy a 90 for the sub panel and bypass the main breaker in the sub panel. Therefore he says buying a main breaker panel is not right, that we need a lug panel and need to put in a 90 amp breaker. Let me know what I should tell Randy as soon as you can as he has to leave the store for a job in a few minutes. Hope to hear soon. If not, we will just do it next week instead. 
Thanks .....Cyndi P.S. I knew this would happen.... That's Home Depot


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Jeez those guys at home depot are something. Tell him to get the the materials whether they like it or not.


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## Cow (Jan 5, 2008)

Does a HD employee know electrical code better than a forum full of licensed electricians??:no: He can save the advice and stick to just selling the parts...:wink:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Now They are saying they have a 1o 3wire in one . yes or no


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

The #2 aluminum is rated 90 amps it can be protected at 90 amps or anything less than 90 amps. This will be the job of the 70 amp breaker at the panel on the pole. You can also some day if you want put in a 90 amp breaker. The new sub must have a main disconnect cause it is in a detached building. It will have a 100 amp breaker in it. It will act as the main disconnect for the barn panel because the 70 will trip before the 100 amp will so the 70 is the feeder protection not the 100 amp in the sub-panel. As long as the pole panel is a 90 or less there is no issue.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Tell Randy to get the aluminum #2 individual wire with a W on the insulation unless they can prove to me that the 3 wire combo stuff is at least USE-2 and can enter a building. What is this 3 wire stuff? Have him read the jacket for the insulation ratings. I don't want this to be an overhead triplex drop not rated for underground conduit.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I just got off the phone with the "Home Depot Electrical 18 year Expert Licensed Electrician" That's what he actually said:furious: I am so stressed after that cause he just basically told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  

Anyway, I told Randy to get the panel, the breakers and the 100 amp main for the sub. They don't have a 70 or 90 so I will get that later. I also told them not to cut the tri-plex wire but they did anyway.....I told them too bad, I don't want it. So Randy is getting the 3 single wires #2 that I will pull with the #8 ground. Man I hate Home Depot!!!!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm sure they already cut the #2 aluminum by now so if it's o.k., I'm not going to call back and confuse anybody any more than they are already.:huh: 

So as it is, We have three 125' lengths of #2 alum. wire coming with a 125 amp panel if 125 will work, that is all they had with the number of breaker slots that I need. Is that o.k.???


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## Cow (Jan 5, 2008)

Don't sweat it, your doing fine Cyndi. You're in good hands with Stubbie!
:thumbsup: 
What are the markings on the wire? Does it say USE or USE-2? The 125 amp panel is fine.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Now they called and they only have enough alum#2 for 2 wires. They say they have #4 that can be used as the neutral. Is that correct. Should I have Randy get 120' of the #4 for the neutral or go somewhere else for the #2 alum??????

Also is it true that the panels do not come with a 100 amp breaker already and that we need to buy one for the panel with a Breaker Retaining Kit???


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes a 125 will work. It is coming with a main breaker correct? The 70 or 90 is the one you want for the pole panel I believe you said it needs to be a challenger.

I wouldn't call those guys back it would just be another cluster @#$#$!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Use-2


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Don't know if you saw the last question. they say they only have enough #2 alum for 2 wires to the barn. They said they have #4 alum that can be used for the neutral. Should I have Randy get the #4 alum for the neutral or try and find more #2 somewhere else??????


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

USE-2 is good for your needs if that is what the 3 wire stuff is. I don't like reduced neutral but a #4 will work with #2 conductors.

If they can't come up with a 100 amp main breaker panel they need to get out of the business. If all they have is a back fed main breaker panel thats ok but I would shop elsewhere for a main breaker panel. go to lowes or somewhere else for it.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

How many circuits do you need? You can get 100 amp main breaker load centers up to 40 circuits.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

the USE-2 is what is on the #2 single wires that I am getting. If you don't think I should get #4 alum for the neutral, I won't. It would be a shame do do all of this and then do something to get by on the neutral. If you don't like it, I DONT LIKE IT!!!!:no:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I'm sorry for this mess with home depot.

A reduced neutral is fine at #4 al and the # USE-2 is ok also but I'm like you makes you want to go elsewhere.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, Randy had to leave the store short handed. No time to dicker around with them. Anyway, I told him not to get the #4 neutral. We will have to find the #2 somewhere else or wait till they get more. No big deal, I just wanted to get the main wire pulled this weekend but believe me, I have enough other electrical to keep me busy!!!

:thumbup: 

So, I have a 125 amp panel coming, two 120' #2 aluminum wires....(more to come later), a 100 amp breaker for the new sub panel. The ground bar kit, ground rods etc. 

Basically he should have everything except one of the #2 alum. wires and the Challenger breaker for the main pole panel. WHEW!!!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Run the deal with the backfed main breaker panel by me again I'm not sure I follow


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok thats fine . Is the 125 amp panel coming with a 100 amp backfed kit? Or 125 amp main breaker. If back fed did they include the retainer kit? Thats fine just trying to get things straight

What are you drinking.....

this was home depot just relax it will all work out.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- I didn't mention a back fed panel...are you talking to someone else???? Randy is getting a 125 amp main breaker panel. With a 100 amp breaker in it. Did I imply something different.....Sorry??


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I tell you what....When Randy gets home with the GOODS, I will make a list of everything that he got. Who knows what I will find!!!!!!!!!

Then I will send the list to you and you can tell us what to take back and what to keep. DEAL?????:laughing: :laughing: 

Hey as long as I get it done by next fall I'll be o.k.!!!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok Cyndi

I'm not understanding if you mean the panel has a 125 amp main breaker factory installed. 

Or did they sell you a 125 amp convertible main lug rated panel and then a 100 amp main breaker kit to put in it?

You do not want a 100 amp breaker and a 125 amp breaker one or the other but not both

Deal


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Here's rough (very rough) drawing of the property and electrical layout.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm glad you decided to wait on the neutral. In most cases reduced neutrals are used for service entrance say for instance a mobile home feeder for 100 amps would be 2-2-4-6 ....4 being the reduced neutral. I would rather you go with a full sized neutral.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Yippeeeee!! I made a good choice!!! 

Randy just called on his way to work and said that he got a 125 amp Cutler Hammer panel with a factory installed 125 amp breaker.

And........I had you fooled....I drank a cup of coffee:laughing: If I would have had some rum, I would have had a rum and coke though!!!!!

Outa Booze for now.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Good deal... 125 amp main is just fine. Now have you found a source for your challenger breaker for the pole panel?


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Randy didn't have time to go to an electrical supply to check it out. I will have to call around and see what we can do for Monday. That will be the next time we make the trip in to Spokane.

I know you said you might have one so if we can't locate one.....maybe I can buy the one from you???? Whatever it takes....right?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Get me a photo of the pole panel and the circuit breakers and if still readable the spec sheet should give the type breakers it takes. Challenger has 3 or 4 types.

An electrical supply will have no trouble getting a 70 for you. If not 70 then anything up to 90. they come 70,80 and 90 there are no inbetweens like 75 or 85.

yes I can get one for you.

If all else fails turn off the main as a last resort and take a double pole out and get me a picture of it or tell me what the type is.

It will say something like type A, type BC, type C etc...


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Lotsa information on that panel lid!!! I think I found the info. It says the main is a QFP and that the others should be A, C, HAGF or HQFP compatable. Is that the right info?? Looks like most of the breakers in the main pole panel are either Murray, Seimens or no name brand.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I don't know how to put more than one photo on each page sorry.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)




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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I'll get back later Gotta take the wife dancing......:thumbsup:

Who makes the panel? You seem to have two different breakers manufacturers installed in it. The red toggle one and the upper right one and the ones on the bottom appear to be challengers.

What size is the upper right breaker?


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

the panel sticker inside the door says Challenger. The breaker on the upper right is a 50 amp breaker for the well system. The bottom 40 amp is for the barn sub-panel and they are Murray. The 30 and 20 above don't have a name on them.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok let me get them identified I think the challengers? are type C full size version. 

I'll get back Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

O.K. the 50 amp is a Westinghouse HACR type
The 20 amp is a Westinghouse HACR type
The 30 amp is a Seimens QP type
The 40 amp to the barn is a Murray MPT

Have fun dancing and I'll get the list of goods when Randy gets home.  
I guess Challenger is now Westinghouse?? According to the supply house. They have a 90 amp breaker that will fit the Challenger panel for $35.00 Not Bad.
Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok that all makes sense. The 40 and 30 Murrays are very similar to challenger type A's not C's. Types A's are 1/2" size not full size 1 inch like yours.
It appears the electrician played the replacement breaker game in your panel the Westinghouse is a replacement breaker for challenger TYPE C which is the brand name that panel accepts. I can't find anything about the Murrays or Seimens being replacements for Challenger type C. 

But your in luck!! Cutler hammer purchased Westinghouse who owned Challenger. The Challenger Type C which fits your pole panel can be replaced by Cutler Hammer BR breakers. These are common as day and are easily obtained at the home centers.... Lowes or Home Depot or many other stores. And they are listed direct replacements by cutler hammer. The cutler hammer BR load centers are also designed to allow replacement with challenger C and Westinghouse and Bryant.

So there you go a stroke of luck. It could be that Randy bought a Cutler Hammer BR load center at Home Depot for the sub in the barn.

Speaking of the barn that is a very nice photo and you are well on your way to lighting that baby up now. Soooo if you want you can put the #2 aluminum on a 90,80,or 70 cutler hammer type BR. If you want to spend the difference in price (about 9 bucks) between a 70 amp double pole and a 90 amp double pole that will set you up for the future and no more changes needed.

* Edited:* I just noticed your comment on the Westinghouse 90 amp breaker..... that is fine if you want that breaker and a darn good price. That will give you the maximum amperage out of your feeder to the sub and you will be set for the future. But remember the cutler hammer BR's they will be easier to get. 

Yes Westinghouse bought challenger then Cutler Hammer bought Westinghouse/Challenger

Stubbie


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- Did ya have a boot scootin time???

Randy finally got home after his work and brought a truck load of elec. stuff too!!! He did get a Cutler Hammer BR panel. 125 with a factory installed 125 breaker. 

We still have to find #2 Alum. wire for one more strand. Home Depot only had 250 feet total and I need 3 @ 120 feet each. The place that has the Challenger breaker should have the wire too. I forgot to ask them. Regardless we won't be going back to Spokane till Monday and we definitely are not going back to Home Depot.  Therefore, I can't pull the feed wire but I can do other stuff.

Should I secure the new panel to the wall and hook everything else up or will that be too hard to pull the wire up and out with the panel already secured? I guess maybe I could just leave some of the breakers off of the bus bar and that will give me room to pull the wires up and out of the PVC.

Did I answer my own question?????

Well, Nighty-nite for tonight and I will probably talk to you tomorrow.

Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

One more thing before I hit the sack. I was reading back through the whole thread just to get things clear and make sure that I am not missing anything, and, a while back you mentioned that the circuits that run out far should have #10 wire instead of #12. I measured today and one circuit (by itself) runs 120' to the horse arena, there is one at 170' to the llama pen and then goes on another 220' to the goat pen. The latter being on a shared neutral. 

I was going to change the receptacles to GFCIs tomorrow, however, if I need to buy different wire and all, I will wait so I only have to do it once. I have plenty of other circuits to run that can use the #12 wire that I pull out if I need to pull it. 

Let me know when you have a chance. I plan on starting tomorrow morn. Have a good one you night owl. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

It is early morning here and I'm doing a trench today to a horse barn and hanging two panels. Just got the permit so gotta get moving on it instead of playing and fishing. Being retired I take a side once in a while to help buy my toys. My brother in law is new in the trade so he is coming along to get the hands on experience but I wish I could bend conduit like he does. Boy is he good at it......
I'm not any good painting like you, though I have a friend that is very talented in that area. He paints mostly mountain scenes. I wish I could have that skill it looks genuinely fun.

I'll be back on later today. 

PS.. the dancing was fun, it is something we do together so that we stay married.... 


Stubbie


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> JR- Here is the photo I tried to send over the e-mail. Yup he's a Spitter. His name is Gaylord (Perry) :laughing:


I don't know if I'd want to meet him in the woods. :laughing: Some people around me raise llamas and alpacas. And bison also.

That dummy at Home Depot should be transfered to the potted plant department.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Jr-

I guess Stubbie won't be around today.... busy busy!! I will be working on some of the electrical later today. About noon our time. One thing that I need to know.....I did'nt get an answer from Stubbie cause I probably asked the question prematurely.

I originally had 3 circuits running in one emt from the left side wall of the barn around the back side wall of the barn. 2 Neutrals in the conduit. There are 6 outlets on the left and I haven't installed the 6 on the rear side. I was originally going to run one circuit for the left, one circuit for the rear and continue the third circuit around for the right side of the barn.

Stubbie recommended that I split the 6 outlets on the left as they will be hooked up to heaters and heat lamps etc. (Too much for one circuit.) 

If I do that, and if I understand how a shared neutral works now, I would want the 6 outlets on the left wall to be on one shared neutral (two circuits) as they will carry a similar load and the six on the back wall to be on their own neutral as they are for my power tools and will not be used regularly. Is that right???

If it is, then I will run another emt conduit around to the right side and split those 6 outlets as well for additional heaters and heat lamps later.

Does that make sense???? Thanks, Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

JR- As far as the Home Depot guys, they do this to us every time. Then after an hour of their debating, I start doubting myself. I started thinking that maybe I didn't explain things to Stubbie correctly. They had my head swimming by the time they were done!!!!! I am so glad that Stubbie was on line at the time. At least I had someone that knew what they were talking about and could re-assure me that I had the information correct in the first place.

As far as Gaylord.......he is a rescue llama/alpaca cross with an attitude. He needs a girlfriend cause he is getting pretty aggressive and frustrated. If not, he needs to be neutered or something!!!!!

Anyway, join in the fun and frustration with me and Stubbie anytime. Thanks. Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Hey Jr-
> 
> I guess Stubbie won't be around today.... busy busy!! I will be working on some of the electrical later today. About noon our time. One thing that I need to know.....I did'nt get an answer from Stubbie cause I probably asked the question prematurely.
> 
> ...


You are correct. The shared neutral and the 2 hot wires to the left. 3 outlets on each hot wire and the neutral to all 6. Then the remaining hot and neutral to the back wall.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> JR- As far as the Home Depot guys, they do this to us every time. Then after an hour of their debating, I start doubting myself.
> Anyway, join in the fun and frustration with me and Stubbie anytime. Thanks. Cyndi


I understand about Home Depot. Just so you know, I like to pay them back in my own fun way. I seldom shop there, but my wife buys certain things there and at other big box type places. While she shops, I go look for the resident "master electrician." I make up a project and start asking questions. Then I get a good chuckle at the wrong and sometimes silly answers I get. Some times it gets downright funny. Then my wife will show up and ask if I am ready to go. Great way to kill time.

But the big thing is not to trust them. They are wrong way more often then they are correct. I don't suppose there is a supply house in your area where the electricians and contractors buy their materials? That would be a much better choice than HD.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

JR-Thanks for the answer. I forgot to reply. I didn't get much accomplished today. I mostly got organized with all the supplies Randy came home with. It looks like most of the holes in the new panel won't line up real well with the conduit that comes in from underground runs. Oh well. My other panel had all the runs clustered together. The knock outs for this new panel has them spread out. We'll see how it goes. I may be cutting and fitting again!!

I'm not worried about the other 1/2 inch emt runs to the outlets and lights. That will be an easy fix if need be. There aren't that many installed yet.

It took me 2 hours to find the ground screws that Randy brought home the other day. He forgot to tell me they were still in the trunk of the car!!!! That was one of the main things that I was going to do today is make sure all the metal boxes were grounded. I have a heck of a time getting all the wires back in the boxes behind the receptacles. Man what a pain. It really hurts my fingers and hands. It is still fairly cold here and I imagine it makes it a little harder for the wires to bend too. Maybe not?? I don't know.

Thanks again for letting me know that I got the info straight on the shared neutral circuits. I appreciate that. I guess some of this stuff is soaking in!!

P.S. I'd love to see you in action at HOME DEPOT!!!!

Well, gotta go. Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm just a little confused by your grounding the boxes comment. The emt conduit is an approved ground. Do you have a local code I'm missing? I'm to lazy to go back and reread all the posts.

I agree about working in the cold. Fingers and wire both bend harder in the cold.

It's good that you are understanding why as well as how. That is a good thing.

Good fishing joke. My wife agreed.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I am supposed to pull all the receptacles out of the metal boxes and add a ground screw to the back of the box pigtailing a #12 ground wire to it. Same thing for the light fixtures to make sure the system is safe.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> I am supposed to pull all the receptacles out of the metal boxes and add a ground screw to the back of the box pigtailing a #12 ground wire to it. Same thing for the light fixtures to make sure the system is safe.


OK. That is required with certain receptacle covers. And not a bad idea for a shed type location. Safe is good. :thumbup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Just don't get too technical on me!!! For the most part, I get what Stubbie is teaching me. Some of the things are a over my head when I first read them. I go over them a few more times and refer to his diagrams and photos and then I seem to get a lot more out of it. Probably not all yet!!!! I don't think I'm doing to bad for and old gal!!!! As long as I can understand the directions and follow them I should be o.k.:thumbup: What I don't understand, I will just ask the same dumb question again!!!! I asked my dad the other day why he didn't teach me any electrical since that was his trade. He said that I was more interested in boys back then. Go figure!!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hello Cyndi

Well it's 11:30 pm here and I'm just getting on the computer. It's been a long day. Several things came up unexpectedly so not able to get back as planned.

John told you correctly on the shared neutral circuit. Be sure that the breaker is a double pole common trip. Be sure your whites are pigtailed to the receptacle.

Now about your equipment grounds. Emt is allowed to serve as the equipment ground. However, you ran a green ground in your circuits and it is required to be connected to the metal box. There are situations with metal box cover types and metal boxes that have direct contact with the metal yoke of a device that does not need to be connected to the green equipment ground you ran and the green screw on the metal yoke of the device.. However it would be almost impossible to go over this...it would take a lot of explanation. Connecting the green to both the yoke and box covers all situations.
Now having said that.... be glad you ran that green in your emt. You never want to rely on emt for your equipment ground in a building or barn that is going to have animals in it. It is only a matter of time before an animal (Like Gaylord) will push , pull, lay against that emt and it come apart and the fault path will be broken back to the source. Or you will hit it with a piece of equipment causing it to come apart. The installation of the green wire, though not required, is something you will never regret in your situation. I would like a dollar for every horse barn I've been in that used emt that I have observed separated emt runs due to damage from animals.
Horses are the absolute worst animal for destroying emt runs.

I liked your joke....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Morning! Hey did I miss something before?? I thought if I ran 2 circuits with a shared neutral, I just needed to make sure that the one circuit (red) was on a different breaker pole than the other circuit (black). I didn't buy any double pole common trip breakers other than for the 220 table saw receptacle at 30amps. All of the others are 20 amp regular breakers for the new panel. Do I need to put different breakers on my shopping list???? 

Cyndi

P.S. If so,,is that because if one of the 2 circuits trips a single breaker, it will then put an undue load on the other circuit because of the shared neutral???

In the electrical world, wouldn't it be better to put all circuits on their own breaker with their own neutrals to avoid all this confusion?? HAHA


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Cyndi said:


> In the electrical world, wouldn't it be better to put all circuits on their own breaker with their own neutrals to avoid all this confusion?? HAHA


No, not in the real electrical world. In the DIY electrical world maybe. 
Most electricians love MWBC's.

I have not been keeping track of this thread because I saw it was being handled great.



PS- Hey Stubbie, I see you have another fan. :thumbsup:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> P.S. If so,,is that because if one of the 2 circuits trips a single breaker, it will then put an undue load on the other circuit because of the shared neutral???


You are ok with what you did but the answer is this....as long as you have those breakers on opposite legs things are fine (for your situation.) If your local code mandates double poles for shared neutral multiwire circuits ( I've never known any that do ) or your local codes department has adopted the 2008 NEC then you are required to use double pole common trip breakers. This is because they want to assure that both hot wires are disconnected when working on the circuit. And that is because both hot wires appear in most or part of the branch circuit jb's and device boxes and they don't want you mistakenly only turning one breaker off and leaving the other leg of the multiwire hot. Handle tied or common trip double pole breakers assure that both hots are denergized because turning the breaker off turns both legs off.

Use of multiwire shared neutrals for you situation I think is fine as long as you understand how to do them properly.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I thought the mystery of what I looked like was GOOD???? 
Well, are ya disappointed???? Now I may never get the help I need  By the way, this photo is 10 years old, but I like it !!!!! Add a LITTLE grey hair and a few pounds and ya got me now!!!!!!! HAHA


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie- O.K. That makes a bucket load of sense:yes: I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Thank God you're not a blonde.....cause then we would start getting the blonde jokes on this thread....whew..

I swear to God I've seen you somewhere... was it sports illustrated swimsuit edition??

Note that was an 'electrical' question....and one my wife always liked....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

:laughing: :yes: :wink: :thumbsup: I'm out to the barn to do some grounding!!!! If you saw the unedited post, I decided I better omit that before I get myself in trouble........Not really that kinda gal. We better get back to the Elecrical stuff.....!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Well I'm sure if you had posted it we would never get this barn wired....

By the way you're not hard to look at......:thumbsup: It is my experience that women only get better looking with a few added pounds and years .

How am I doing so far....


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

You just scored some big brownie points!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This where the forum Moderator steps in and says we are off subject......:laughing:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Uh-oh!! I don"t want the SHERIFF to get me!!!

I'm going to drive the ground rods in today. How far apart should I put the two ground rods? Should I put them on the inside of the barn next to the wall or on the outside?? Either way there will not be a concrete floor.

According to the diagram you sent, they should be buried completely under the ground. Is that right?

I run the bare wire from the ground bar in the panel to the first rod, then jumper it to the second rod from the first clamp without a break in the wire?

The idiots at Home Depot cut my bare wire in half for some reason.

Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Good eve Stubbie-

Here is a photo of the new panel. I understand the green screw with the little bar needs to be removed, correct? I went to put the new ground bar kit in and it didn't fit. Then,.......I looked at the package and surprize....it said Square D. The new panel is a Cutler Hammer!!!!! Another point for the Home Depot guys!!!!!! And I guess their 18 year veteran electrician picked it out!!! Hum.........Duh.........Oops!!!!

Needless to say, I haven't got much done in the electrical dept. today. Oh well, it's Sunday.....I should be goofin off anyway.

Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Nice picture Cyndi.

I agree with Stubbie 100% on running a ground wire inside the EMT in a barn or animal building. I just wasn't aware you did that. He has you doing the right thing with the grounds in the boxes and on the receptacles.

Stubbie didn't answer yet, so I'll take on the ground rod questions. 6 feet apart minimum. I prefer the rods outside and out just past the drip line of the roof, in dirt that gets moist from rain from time to time. Your ground rod wire only needs to be one piece to the first rod. But then you will need an extra clamp to run to the second rod. Only 1 wire is allowed in a clamp. Yes the rods will be sunk below the ground along with the wire. We don't want you tripping and falling down. Or Gaylord getting hurt. If you are having an inspection, make sure the inspector can see them before burying them.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

I see John has saved me some typing. 

As for unbonding the BR panel from the ground you do not install the little bar with the green screw.

Should look like image below.


How many bars came factory installed 1 or 2 ?

Is this what you have?


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## helpless handyman (Jul 6, 2006)

This Stubbie is Grrrreat!!! Really takes time to describe things to the details!:thumbup:


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

All the Cutler Hammer BR panels I have bought, do not have the main bonding jumper connected. It is bolted to the bottom of the can, but turned to the side and not inserted into the neutral bus. It will be interesting to see what Cyndi finds in her new panel.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cydni

Another lesson and it is more for other diyers searching the forums than for you because I think you understand the separation of the neutral and ground. But may be this will clear up a few gray areas or give you more gray hairs.....

To explain why I asked about two neutral bars in your panel or one....Many panels including cutler hammer BR and CH have what is called split neutral or twin neutral designs. These are the panels that have 2 factory installed neutral bars that can be bonded to the metal of the panel with your little strap shown in the image earlier. If your 125 amp panel has 2 factory installed *neutral *bars you will notice that both are set on insulated standoffs which keep them from being connected to the metal of the panel. And on BR panels of this type you will notice a nylon sleeve running along the back of the panel. 

This sleeve insulates a thin flat metal strap that goes between the neutral bars from the metal of the panel and it is what they use to bond the two neutral bars together (but not the neutral bars to the metal of the panel) essentially making them one neutral bar electrically. 

The little main bonding jumper shown earlier is used to bond the neutral bar(s) to the metal of the panel to include it in the effective fault current path. You do not use this bonding jumper on sub-panels with 4 wire feeders like yours.


If you notice in the image below this BR panel has a spilt neutral so you simply do not connect that jumper to the neutral bar it is next to in your situation.

I think you are clear on this but I want you to understand the why of it.

You will then see some factory drilled pairs of holes to mount the ground bar kits. The mounting screws will bond these bars to the metal of the panel. So if the metal of the panel by accident gets energized by a hot wire the fault current will flow to the ground bar and use the feeder equipment ground which is connected to that ground bar to get pack to the pole panel to the transformer and facilitate the trip out of the breaker in the sub-panel where the fault originates and the fault will clear.

The reason we want that bonding jumper removed is to keep neutral current from using that bonding jumper to get to the metal of the panel then flowing to the ground bar and then using the feeder equipment ground to get back to the source transformer. Neutral current will now be pretty much evenly split with 1/2 using the feeder neutral to get back to the source and the other half using the equipment ground of the feeder. This is a parallel path with neutral current on both the neutral of the feeder and the equipment ground of the feeder. We don't want neutral current on the equipment ground!!

So when that bonding jumper is removed we have eliminated the path for neutral current to get to the ground bar.

Hope that wasn't to confusing....:huh: 

Use the image below to help you understand what I explained. This is a BR load center with twin neutral design. If your load center is only one neutral bar then the concept is the same you just don't have a second neutral bar and removing the jumper when it is connected to the bar itself unbonds the bar to the metal of the panel. In the picture the jumper is of course not connected to the neutral bar and therefore no bonding is taking place to the neutral.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I forgot to mention the freakin Square d ground bar Randy was sold. That's a shame that they didn't know it was not going to fit a BR panel from cutler hammer. Thing to remember with the big box stores is it is very common for this type of thing to happen. It is not a place to take advice, just present a materials list and tell them that is what you want and that an electrician told you to get the items on the list. Don't elaborate or you are going to get results that will be very confusing. When buying accessories for electrical panels at the big box... if it isn't made by the same manufacturer it likely will not be correct.

I apologize for not telling you that Randy needed to get a ground bar kit acceptable only to cutler hammer. that was my oversite. I just didn't think that would be one of the things they would get wrong.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Stubbie- That is the panel configuration that I got. I understand the principle of it all and figured that little green screw and little bar should be removed. Thanks. 

Also I think you made it clear to me that the ground bar needed to be for that particular panel. Randy also knew but didn't double check. He figured that wasn't something he had to check on but .......guess so!!

I am busy digging holes to uncover all the underground runs. I called the Labor and Industries to get this all legal. It did open a little can of worms but it will be worth it in the end I hope. At least it will be legal!!!!!

The inspector was real nice and said normally they would make me dig up the entire runs. All 700+ feet of them. He said to just dig up a spot every 15-20 feet and he would let it go without a citation. Whew!!!! I got two holes dug (by shovel) this morning so far. The conduit is 30" deep. That is a lot of digging!!! I only have 35 more holes to go!!!!!!!!

Once I get the holes dug, he will come out and then I can continue with all the information that you have given me. I'm sure I'll be bugging you still!!!

Talk to ya later and Thanks for now. Enjoy your break from the Newbie girl!!! :thumbsup: Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

I'm glad you talked to the inspector about getting your project inspected. You made another great decision....:thumbsup:

As for the conduit being thirty inches deep I assume you must have put it in with the water line trenches. Wow! that is going to be a lot of diggin. For your information PVC only needed to be 18" deep. The biggest deal if electrical is in the same trench with water is there may be a separation requirement of say 12" or so. Maybe you can make the inspector some of those cookies and you will not have to dig so many freakin holes......


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

The water lines are 4-5 foot deep and then the excavator back filled it to leave the rest open for electrical. Wish he would have filled it in more. I got 3 holes dug now but one I've gone 36 inches and haven't hit anything. the problem is the trenches were about 24 inches wide and the conduit could have been on one side or the other. You're right...a lot of diggin for an ol gal. I'm tired!!!!! I figure I will finish finding this spot and then maybe do one more for the day. At this rate it should take me a week or two!!!!

Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> The water lines are 4-5 foot deep and then the excavator back filled it to leave the rest open for electrical. Wish he would have filled it in more. I got 3 holes dug now but one I've gone 36 inches and haven't hit anything. the problem is the trenches were about 24 inches wide and the conduit could have been on one side or the other. You're right...a lot of diggin for an ol gal. I'm tired!!!!! I figure I will finish finding this spot and then maybe do one more for the day. At this rate it should take me a week or two!!!!
> 
> Cyndi


I would call the inspector and ask if you could dig less holes. One at each end and one in the middle would show him what he needs to see. Tell him how hard it is for you to dig. It's worth a phone call. Good luck.


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

mr500 said:


> Down here we love them with fries, hush puppies, baked beans, cole slaw..LOL. ******* dinner I suppose. Having fish fries and knocking down a few cold ones. Maybe even pitch some horseshoes!! :laughing:lol.


 
When my kids were little we used to go to Indian Rocks Beach Florida every year on vacation. There was a restaurant called the Hungry Fisherman that served the best damn hush puppies ever. I have never been able to get them that good ever again. *I would be eternally grateful if you could tell me the secret to good hush puppies*


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Silk- did you post about the hush-puppies by mistake. I haven't made those for years. Cyndi


 
No, a few pages ago in this thread mr500 said he makes hush puppies, and I haven't had any good hush puppies in probably 20 years cause I live up north and nobody up here has even heard of them.

Do you make good hush puppies? If you do I'll be your BFF (Best Friend Forever):yes:


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Besides the slippers I had when I was a kid, what's a hush puppy? :jester:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hush Puppies recipe

1-1/2 cups cornmeal
1-1/2 cup water
1/3 cup of milk
1 Tablespoon Vegetable Oil
2 teasp. grated onion
2 eggs beaten
1 cup flour
3 teasp. baking power
2 teasp. salt
1 teasp. sugar
oil for deep frying

Over medium heat, cook cornmeal and water, stirring until batter becomes stiff and begins to roll into a ball....about 6 minutes.
Remove from heat and stir in milk, oil and onion.
Gradually stir batter into beaten eggs in a large bowl.
Sift flour, baking powder, sugar and salt together. Blend into cornmeal batter.

Drop batter by teaspoonfuls into heated oil (350 degrees).
Fry until golden brown...6-7 minutes turning once in the process.

Drain on paper towel.....and EAT!!! YUMMY!! This is my mom's recipe. Let me know if you survive!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Here's a recipe from the internet that sound Spicey Good. Try it and let me know how great it is!!!

We ate a lot of cornmeal based foods when I was
growing up because corn meal was cheap. In fact,
we could even take grain to the local mill and
have it ground into flour, meal, livestock feed,
etc. Cornbread or biscuits were almost always 
served at any meal I attended at many houses in 
the neighborhood. They were usually pretty good 
too, although I preferred the lighter tasting 
hush puppies. Eaten fresh out of the fryer, they 
practically melted in your mouth. Here is my
recipe:

*Ingredients:*
2 cups yellow corn meal
1 cup plain flour (flour is what gave it the
lighter taste and you can experiment with the
amount you use if you want)
2 eggs
1 cup buttermilk (you can also use plain milk in
a pinch, but nothing compares to buttermilk)
3/4 teaspoon seasoned salt. I use Lowreys but just
about any brand will work as you are just looking
for something to spice things up a little
1/2 teaspoon ground pepper blend (again, the idea
is to spice things up a little).
1 teaspoon baking powder
2/3 teaspoon baking soda
1/8 cup bacon grease. This is another big key to 
the flavor. In a pinch you can use other types
of cooking oil, but bacon is my favorite.

You also need some type of cooking oil to deep fry
these in. I usually use Crisco oil although peanut oil
and some of the lower fat oils work well too. 

Mix all of the dry ingredients in a bowl. Add your
eggs, oil, and buttermilk. Stir it all up until
the flavors are thoroughly blended. 

Turn your cooker on medium-high heat. When it's 
hot you can drop your hush puppies in using a
table spoon. Allow them to brown on all sides.
They should begin floating when done, but if they
don't, don't overcook them.

Serve as a side dish with just about any meal. I
loved eating them with fried catfish or fresh
chopped or pulled pork barbecue. Most of the local
resturants added them as a standard feature when you
bought plate meals.

After getting to Alaska, I visited a restaurant that
also added yellow corn to their hush puppies and a 
touch of sugar. If you want to give this a try, 
precook the corn, but don't overcook it. Use 3/4 cups 
in the recipe above. On top of that add 2 table spoons
of white sugar. The recipe at the restaurant in
Alaska was so popular that customers often ordered
side orders to take home. I always though that it
tasted pretty good.

You can also store this mixture in the refrigerator
for a day or so if you are only cooking for a smaller
group. Before cooking let it reach near room 
temperature.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ahhhhh.....hush pups now were gettin somewhere. Ain't nothin better with fish. Unless it would be frog legs... I've never had crayfish but that is something I hear is darn worth the wait.

Cyndi:

I agree with John. I think I would call back I really think if you used the right wire and he sees a conduit 30 Inches down at one end he will be satisfied. He ain't no dummy and he knows that the trench was backfilled so you pretty well can bet that the conduit is at 30" all the way. give him a call and tell him what the deal is about the trench. I'll bet he will sign off on it with only one hole at the beginning of the trenches.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I gave up on the third hole. I dug 36" deep and 30 "wide and didn't hit anything. That third hole wore me out!!! I will call tomorrow. As a matter of fact, I left him a message and hopefully he will call me first.

Randy only found a 10 slot Cutler Hammer ground bar. Is that enough spaces for all the circuits that I am planning? Can a second 10 slot be added to the other side of the panel as well. There appear to be holes for a second one. I guess I need to see how many grounds I am going to have in order to determine if I even need more than 10.

Hope you all had a great day and I'll check my replies later. Thanks again!!:wink:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yes you can add a ground bar to the other set of mounting holes. You will have the #8 equipment ground of the feeder connect to a ground bar and the #6 out to the ground rods connected to a ground bar. So if using only one 10 hole ground bar those will occupy 2 set screw holes. That leaves eight positions. You are allowed two or more equipment grounds of the *same size* per hole. The specification sheet will tell you how many per hole on the panel cover. So if all the others are 12AWG for example thats sixteen grounds on that ground bar at two per hole.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

16 auta-be plenty!!! Thanks again. Cyndi


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Hush Puppies recipe
> 
> 
> Drain on paper towel.....and EAT!!! YUMMY!! This is my mom's recipe. Let me know if you survive!!!


Thanks so much for the recipe Cindy, you are truly a doll for helping me out. I can't wait to taste these. That's what I was looking for, a good "home" recipe from a real southern belle:thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Silk- 
If you like the buttermilk recipe, try adding onions to it if you like onions!! Yum!!!

Stubbie and Jrclen-

I did get the inspector to call me back this morn. He is going to let me just dig a hole every 50-60 feet or so just to let him see that the conduit is buried deep enough. Thanks for the tip!! That saved me a lot of sore muscles and exhaustion!!!

The electrical supply houses want 1.40 per foot on the #2 Alum new and 1.20 per foot for used!!! I guess we'll wait till HD gets more in at .47 per foot. What a difference!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie-

I think I have everything that will be needed to complete the electrical system. The only thing that I will have to get is #10 wire if you think the #12 is not large enough for the 220' and 390' distance circuits. I also saw someone mention on another thread that if you run alum. feeders, you need some type of contact goop or something for the ends that go into the breakers.. If so, I need to get that too and I should be done shopping!!! So, do I need some type of goop or not really? As for the #10 wire, I can get that later if I need to.

The inspector will be out next Tues. and then I can proceed. Have a great weekend and Bye for now. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

What your being told to use is called anti oxidant. There is no electrical code requirement to use it. Some electricians do....some don't. Aluminum alloys have come a long way from 20 years ago when anti oxidant was used all the time on the stripped end of aluminum wires. There are still electrical contractors that require their electricians to use it. My opinion is that unless specifically told by the literature that comes with an electrical product it is not necessary to use it. There are some electrical lugs that come preloaded with anti oxidant so naturally that manufacturer wants it.


----------



## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

HI Stubbie!

The 170' run had a 1250 watt heater last year with a sensored light that had two 250 watt bulbs. Then from that location another circuit was run with a shared neutral 220 more feet. It had the same load. 

Now, I could make sure that I buy 500 watt water trough heaters for this winter and that would reduce the load if need be. 

Those locations also at times need to have a heat lamp added to the receptacle if an animal gets too cold in their shelter. I usually run that with an outdoor extension chord because the shelters are just portable sheds that get moved around sometimes. I usually put a 150-250 watt bulb if needed.

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> The 170' run had a 1250 watt heater last year with a sensored light that had two 250 watt bulbs. Then from that location another circuit was run with a shared neutral 220 more feet. It had the same load.


Ok so you have a shared neutral circuit that starts at the sub-panel goes 170' to a receptacle then you carry one of the hot legs and the shared neutral another 220' to a second receptacle.


Ok Cyndi let me give you some guidelines on what I use to calculate the size of heaters for a given outside average winter air temp and water tank
capacity. 

First always figure O degrees and then get colder to size a 120 volt water heater.

Tank size 5 gal at 0 F needs a 250 watt heater these generally are your plastic buckets with a heater built into the bottom.

Tank size 5 gal at -20F needs a 500 watt heater

Tank size 25 gal at 0 F needs 500 watt heater

Tank size 25 gal at -20 F needs 1000 watt heater

Tank size 50 gal at 0 F needs 1000 watt heater

Tank size 50 gal at -20 F needs 1500 watt heater

So what tank size do you have? 

I think the first thing to do is get the heaters sized properly or down size the tank so we can use a smaller heater on that 390 foot run.

Then we will take a look at wire sizes and voltage drops to get the most out of the heaters and heat lamps.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

JMHO, I like anti oxidant on aluminum wires. Especially in out buildings. I also torque the wires in the terminals, leave them sit while I do some other work, and then check them again after 15 min or so. I've been called out for many corroded and overheated terminal connections over the years. Usually in the middle of the night. :laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Cyndi

I'm leaving on a fishing trip for 4 days starting tomorrow morning. Others will help you out if you need it. I'll check back on Monday.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Cyndi
> 
> I'm leaving on a fishing trip for 4 days starting tomorrow morning. Others will help you out if you need it. I'll check back on Monday.


Good luck Stubbie. Have a great time.


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## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Cyndi
> 
> I'm leaving on a fishing trip for 4 days starting tomorrow morning. Others will help you out if you need it. I'll check back on Monday.


 
Who's going to hold down the fort while you're off playing?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Good luck Stubbie. Have a great time.


Thank You.. should be fun , going to Truman Lake, Missouri....crappie are on the banks and the bass are doing their prespawn feeding. Weather is going to be decent so should be one of the better trips for catching of the year. I'm packing at the moment and wouldn't you know the fellow who we are staying with at the lake wants a couple motion lights set up with remote sensors. So now I'm out to the truck to gather my tools to take along. I'm going to forget the one tool I will need desperately to finish the job it never fails.



> Who's going to hold down the fort while you're off playing?


Well.... it looks to me like you are a prime candidate.......:thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

John and Silk-

It's nice to know that you guys are there if I need help. I can't really do anything until the Inspector comes out this coming Tuesday. Then we can get this party started!!! Thanks again and try not to miss me too much till then!!:thumbup: Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> John and Silk-
> 
> It's nice to know that you guys are there if I need help. I can't really do anything until the Inspector comes out this coming Tuesday. Then we can get this party started!!! Thanks again and try not to miss me too much till then!!:thumbup: Cyndi


We'll be here Cyndi. Silk and I to help with your questions, and Joba to recommend you hire an electrician. :whistling2:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Stubbie!!! Welcome back!!! Hope you had a great time fishing. 

I got the holes dug for the inspector. He'll be out tomorrow and then it should be good from then on!!

Have a great day! Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Hey Stubbie!!! Welcome back!!! Hope you had a great time fishing.
> 
> I got the holes dug for the inspector. He'll be out tomorrow and then it should be good from then on!!
> 
> Have a great day! Cyndi


OK, if Stubbie is back, shhhhhhh, don't tell him all that bad advice we gave you while he was gone. :laughing:


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

jrclen said:


> OK, if Stubbie is back, shhhhhhh, don't tell him all that bad advice we gave you while he was gone.


He'll figure it out John as Cindy's gone (whoa-that rhymes). She took Joba's advice and hired an "electrician" that she met in the electrical department at Home Depot. You just can't trust that Stubbie!:laughing:


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

I looked at the thread early this morning for a few minutes. Then had tons of yard work to do. Anyway back from my fishing trip. We had high winds for 3 of the 4 days so only got in one full day where we could fish without getting blown off the lake after a few hours.. We caught lots of fish though the weather didn't cooperate as we thought. I may post a few pictures of some of the crappie.

I told you that the other guys here would take good care of you but I didn't think Joba Fett would show up. Anyway when the inspector finishes we can continue with the water heaters and those branch circuits that were soooooooo loooooong and see what we come up with.

I'll have to read back through the thread to see if you posted the size of water troughs your using.


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## BigJimmy (Jun 30, 2006)

Stubbie said:


> Hi Cyndi


Stub-

Great to have you back. Hope the fish were biting! (we all know that Joba is).


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

BigJimmy said:


> She took Joba's advice and hired an "electrician" that she met in the electrical department at Home Depot.


Dang Jimmy, I was drinking coffee when I read that and almost drowned. That is funny. :laughing:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Why would I hire a self-proclaimed master electrician from Home Depot when I can follow the directions of a self-proclaimed expert on just about everything like Jobe Fett?????? :laughing::thumbup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Joba- I don't need luck, I have real electrical experts that have offered great assistance and information here on this forum. I'm sure we will have success!! As for my girlfriend.....not sure what you are referring to. I am sure that Stubbie, Jrclen, Silk, Mr.500 and the rest of the guys don't consider themselves of the female gender. Maybe you are a little mixed up. Better get some help man. :laughing::laughing:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Guys- The inspector came today and now I can proceed with the project. The excavator is going to fill in the trenches tomorrow and then Thursday thru Sunday I will be doing what I can. Thanks for all your help and I am sure that I will have a zillion questions once I get going again. You guys have been great......and a special GREAT BIG thanks to Stubbie!!!!

I will try not to bug you guys till after I get the new wiring run through the conduit. 

The inspector stated that I could keep the #12 wiring if I wanted to but #10 would be an improvement for the longer runs...like you said Stubbie. I will most likely change it to #10 just in case I need to run something else off of it. In fact I may run a third circuit and terminate it there for future use. We will most likely add another animal enclosure as we expand.

Talk to you all soon. Cyndi

P.S. I told the electrical inspector, Mike that this was a great site and forum for us newbies. He might check it out. I hope he does so that he can refer others to the site.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Joba Fett said:


> And I do wish you and your girlfriend luck in finishing this project.


 
Eh.,,Buvez-vous la mauvaise bière aujourd'hui ?? :whistling2:

Merci,Marc



[ Eh., are you drinking wrong beer today ?? ]


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> Eh.,,Buvez-vous la mauvaise bière aujourd'hui ?? :whistling2:
> 
> Merci,Marc


l'homme est fou! :yes:

Merci, John


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Good Morning Guys!! I am pulling the #8 wire out this weekend and replacing with the #2 alum for the feed to the sub-panel. 

Before I install the new sub-panel, I want to make sure that I replace all the necessary wire through the conduit runs.

I plan on replacing the #12 wire on the 390 foot run with #10 per Stubbies suggestion. My question is....do I replace the #12 wire that is on the shared neutral with the 390 foot wire as well?? This circuit is 170 feet from the sub-panel.

Also, by reading some of the other postings in the electrical section, I understand that I need to install a GFCI breaker (double pole..common trip) on these shared exterior circuits instead of a GFCI receptacle at each location. Is this correct?? 

I just want to make sure that I have a clear understanding on this aspect before I make some of the needed changes.

I have the same situation on the interior of the garage where two circuits share one neutral and I thought I could just put a GFCI outlet at the first receptacle of each circuit. If this is the case, does the same apply for the exterior outlets as well??

Thanks,, Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

*5 months later*

Hi All!!

It's been 5 months since I started this project and I want to thank all of you that helped me with the installation of the sub-panel and all the animal pasture lights and receptacles. Everything is working with the exception of one light fixture at one of the pastures. I can't seem to figure that one out no matter what I do.

Thanks again for all of your help. Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for letting us know things worked out well. That is great news. Have you checked voltage at the non working fixture? What type of fixture?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yeah.. Cyndi lets get the whole thing working properly...how you going to see the bears without light???


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi John and Stubbie!!! I feel like I have just met up with some old friends again!!!! I missed you guys a bunch.

Anyway, the GFCI outlet at the location works but the light at the top of the pole does not. It is a sensor light that came on when I turned on the breaker, but then shut off like it was supposed to do, then it will not turn on again. I fiddled with the wiring a bit in the receptacle box to make sure that there were good connections, the light came on again, then turned off and did not come on at dark. This is the one that is on the multi wire circuit, the nearest to the panel and the other one at the end works fine.

It may be that the sensor light is malfunctioning?? The light fixtures were hooked up last year and worked fine but this particular one, did set outside in the weather for a few months when it was disconnected. I thought it was protected but maybe not.

I would like to get it figured out as we have a huge cougar hanging around. It was spotted day before yesterday about 100 feet from our driveway.

Cyndi


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I would suspect the photo eye (sensor). When you turn the circuit off and then on, the photo eye contacts close and the light comes on. But then the contacts are not closing again at dark. That sounds like a defective eye.

I would want more than a light with that cat prowling. Big gun sounds about right.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeh, that sounds about right, but with an animal rescue......it would be bad publicity for us to do him in!!!! We did notify some of the hunting neighbors that have cougar tags for the hunt. Hopefully they will take care of the situation.

I have been busy running new circuits from the interior house panel, then down under the house and up into some new bedroom walls. I am opening an Adult Family Home in our house for the elderly. I needed dedicated circuits for their oxygen concentrators and also separate circuits for the air conditioners that we are going to install in the walls. So I added 4 circuits all together. Two for each bedroom. That project went real well. Lots easier than the last one!! I helped my cousin frame the walls and then I drywalled, taped and textured them. Just an ol' handy- woman!!!

I still can't believe I tackled the barn project as my first one. I guess I should be proud of myself, huh??? I only got shocked once and that was once too many.

I do have another "fix it" on the first job. The receptacle at the light that doesn't work needs replaced as the box broke when I was attaching a box extender. The metal bracket on the box attached to the wood pole came loose at the weld and now it is no longer able to be put together with screws to make it water proof. Always something. Now I have to dismantle the whole thing, light and all to replace that box. What a pain!!!!:furious: I couldn't fit all the wires in a regular box cause this was where the multi-wired circuit continued to the next pole and outlet on the second circuit. I think I had 14 wires in that box from different directions. Including the ones on the receptacle. Crazy!!!

I hate the bubble covers that I had to put on them. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Have you ever used the expandable kind??? They looked pretty cool. You just expand them when you are going to use them. HD said they were to code but I didn't take their word for it. I just bought the bubble ones cause I knew they were o.k.

My next project is to add baseboard heaters to a 600 square foot family room. There is no crawl and no basement for that room so I have to run the circuits from the panel in the house, outside and along the exterior wall, then back into that room through the wall. I am going to install 3 heaters in all. I may have some questions!!! There is also a funky old light fixture on a wall that used to be an exterior wall and is now a wall in the family room. The fixture is open with no cover. There are wires capped and some attached to romex that runs up the wall and into the ceiling of the family room addition. This one feeds two ceiling fans/lights and the other romex wire is hanging loose with caps. Looks pretty tacky to say the least. I will send a photo later and maybe you all can make suggestions as how to remedy the situation without comprimising the ceiling fan/lights.

Well, hope you all have a good night. Talk with you soon. Thanks again for all your help. Cyndi


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

Think of putting hydronic heating in the ground rather than heat lamps. Hydronic heating is way more efficient. It is also more expensive to install but well worth the effort in the long run.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Yeh, that sounds about right, but with an animal rescue......it would be bad publicity for us to do him in!!!!


I forgot about the rescue part. I agree, killing it would be rather tacky. I would fire a warning shot first of course. I only kill what I eat. And my cat Benny would frown on my eating kitty cat.



> So I added 4 circuits all together. Two for each bedroom. That project went real well. Lots easier than the last one!! I helped my cousin frame the walls and then I drywalled, taped and textured them. Just an ol' handy- woman!!!


That is great. And think of all the cash you saved.



> I still can't believe I tackled the barn project as my first one. I guess I should be proud of myself, huh??? I only got shocked once and that was once too many.


That was a large project but you did it. You are lucky, under the right (wrong) conditions, one shock can be the last one. Get a contact voltage detector and put it in your tool belt. Use it religiously.



> I do have another "fix it" on the first job. The receptacle at the light that doesn't work needs replaced as the box broke when I was attaching a box extender. The metal bracket on the box attached to the wood pole came loose


I once installed a run of rigid conduit, screwed into weather proof boxes, down an ally, attached to a cement wall, for plugging in truck heaters. This was a three phase (multi wire) circuit with 5 wires. I was called back two weeks later. A truck had backed into the first box in the run where the conduit came up from under the driveway. I had to dismantle 9 boxes and the conduit and wires between them to replace that one box. Only getting paid by the hour saves my attitude on days like that.



> I hate the bubble covers that I had to put on them. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Have you ever used the expandable kind??? They looked pretty cool. You just expand them when you are going to use them. HD said they were to code but I didn't take their word for it. I just bought the bubble ones cause I knew they were o.k.


I agree those bubbles are just plain ugly. And they break within the first year. If the box and cover is UL listed and is still rain tight with a cord plugged in, it meets code.



> My next project is to add baseboard heaters to a 600 square foot family room. There is no crawl and no basement for that room so I have to run the circuits from the panel in the house, outside and along the exterior wall, then back into that room through the wall. I am going to install 3 heaters in all. I may have some questions!!!


Make sure the conductors are rated for a wet location. We will be happy to answer any questions you have.



> There is also a funky old light fixture on a wall that used to be an exterior wall and is now a wall in the family room. The fixture is open with no cover. There are wires capped and some attached to romex that runs up the wall and into the ceiling of the family room addition. This one feeds two ceiling fans/lights and the other romex wire is hanging loose with caps. Looks pretty tacky to say the least. I will send a photo later and maybe you all can make suggestions as how to remedy the situation without compromising the ceiling fan/lights.


Pictures are always good.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

John and Stubbie-

I am building a llama shelter today. We had an unexpected baby llama born 3 days ago and the weather is supposed to cool down considerably in the next couple of days.

Then off to work for a couple of days. I had to take up some elderly care work in Spokane to help supplement our income. Crappy economy!!!!!!! Like I have nothing better to do than to drive into town (1-1/2 hours each way) to work for 9 dollars an hour. Gotta do what ya gotta do till our new venture gets started. We have been in the real estate field for 6 years and you know how that has gone down the toilet.:furious:

I'll be off line for a few days. Thanks again for all of your help guys. I couldn't have done it without you by any means. Thanks for the education. Maybe I should get a job as an aprentice electrician!!!:laughing::thumbup:

Cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Marvin Gardens- I just read your post. I don't know what you were talking about....heat lamps. Did you mean the ones that I am hooking up in the barn for the animals???? Cause in the house, I am putting in baseboard heaters.

In the barn, the flooring is dirt and the feces and urine would probably not work with in the ground Hydronic heat would it??? Plus it sounds like overkill for what I need.

Thanks anyway. cyndi


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

John- About the shock......I was putting a plastic bag over the exposed wiring in one of the boxes at a pole cause I couldn't fit all of the wires in at the time and needed to protect it from the weather when I touched the metal screw on the side of the receptacle. It was a small shock but I do take it seriously. Now I turn of the power no matter what I am doing which is what I should have done in the first place. That is the only time that I have had the power on in the entire process.:thumbsup:

Hey, by the way. How do you take my quotes and put them in your reply??? That sure would be handy.

Cyndi


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Hey, by the way. How do you take my quotes and put them in your reply??? That sure would be handy.
> 
> Cyndi


Very carefully...


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hope there is more helpful information to come cause that wasn't too helpful!!!! :no:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> Hope there is more helpful information to come cause that wasn't too helpful!!!! :no:


I know, I saw that you were on, and wanted to be a smart arse. But you click the quote button at the bottom of the form.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

Two ways to qoute, if you want the entire reply in qoutes just click the qoute tab at bottom right of the reply your wanting to refer.

If you want to select what you qoute you can go to the post reply page and the far right ICON that looks like it has text inside the borders. Select and highlight by clicking and dragging over the text you want. Then go up to the qoute icon and click on it. It will put what you highlighted in qoutes. It won't show until you submit your reply but the qoutes will show at the beginning and end of the text you selected. If you click the preview tab next to the submit reply it will show you what you have before you send it for posting.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

I didn't know that Stubbie. I'll have to try that someday. I just type [quot] before the section and [/quot] after the section that I want to quote. Of course I spell it quote each time. Seems to work. :thumbsup:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

I must be missing something cause I just can't seem to get it to work. Duh!!!!


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Cyndi said:


> I must be missing something cause I just can't seem to get it to work. Duh!!!!


I have heard of other people's browser not showing all the buttons for some reason. But, like jrclen said, you can quote text by placing the text between html commands. Like this:

[quot]Enter text here[/quot]

Except it is spelled quote when inside the brackets. I spelled quot because it would have quoted me otherwise!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

> I have heard of other people's browser not showing all the buttons for some reason. But, like jrclen said, you can quote text by placing the text between html commands. Like this:
> 
> [quot]Enter text here[/quot]
> 
> Except it is spelled quote when inside the brackets. I spelled quot because it would have quoted me otherwise!


Did this work???


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Yipppeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Thanks. I feel official now!!!!


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok Cindy I think your using the wrong ICON...it's the third from the far right next to the icon with the mountains (image). If you hold your cursor on the icon it will tell what it does.

Drag and highlight the text I have below on your reply page..scroll down to see my reply then left click highlight the text then right click and copy. Then go up to your reply and right click and paste it. Now highlight it again and left click the qoute tab. the qoutes will appear at the beginning and end of your selected text. Now look at it on the preview post.



"It is my understanding that the Senate and Congress wouldn't give the 700 billion of our tax money back to us (the people who earned it) because they said individuals who don't deserve it would get it. So they decided to give it to the investment bankers that caused the whole mess".


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

If you don't like that way you can click on the quote tab which will put everything in the reply in qoutes. You can then highlight the text you *don't
*want and hit delete then leaving the text you want. Hightlight the text you want then click on the quote icon on the tool bar of the reply page.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Stubbie-Thanks.....and one quick question before I go for the night. Sitting here in the family room, I notice that the ceiling fan/lights flicker. They are on a dimmer as well. They are both on one 15 amp breaker and have 4-60 watt bulbs in each of the two fans, eight all together. Is that most likely why they flicker. The fans are off right now but the bulbs are flickering.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

MIght be several things...dimmer needs replacement, loose connection somewhere, bulbs have become loose due to fan vibration,....

Is it just the bulbs on the ceiling fan fixtures? Are these bulbs ceiling fan rated?


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Bulbs not loose, don't know the rating....just regular cheap bulbs. Probably not. I guess I will get the proper bulbs and then go from there. Nighty-night all. Catch ya next week when I get home from Spokane!!!!


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Morning Stubbie!!

Was up early this morning...the horses got out and we had to round em up

Anyway, the weather dropped way down last night and our family room was freezing this morning. I am going to put the ceiling fan issue on hold and start on the baseboard heaters.

For a 24 x 24 room, I have one eight footer and two 4 footers. Is it correct that if I install them with 220 its cheaper to run???? Let's start from the beginning with this one, o.k.??

I have 3 available breaker slots in the house panel. I have already cut a hole in the outside wall from the panel...throught the siding...to the exterior. I have installed a weather tight junction box on the exterior to run the initial romex from the interior panel to the exterior box. I have to run emt from that box, 35 feet to the place that I need to cut back into the interior. I have all the weather tight connectors, boxes and emt. What next??? What size breaker do you recommend and what size wire. If you need more info on the heater, I will have it later today. Thanks

By the way, I thought the heater came with a thermostat but I guess that is separate,, huh? DUH:whistling2:


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Any electrician on line...... I finally got the part to do the permanant hook up to the main outside panel from the barn. I ordered a flexible 1-1/4 inch conduit and the appropriate connectors to fit onto my underground conduit that leads to the panel. Low and behold when I looked at the available knock out spaces, there is none for that size.  In fact the largest is 3/4 inch. Can I legally saw a new hole in the panel that will accomodate the 1-1/4 inch pipe or what should I do???? The side of the panel has more room to drill than the bottom. Any helpful suggestions????


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Morning Stubbie!!


Good evening Cyndi, I must have missed you this morning as I was getting ready for a days fishing.




> For a 24 x 24 room, I have one eight footer and two 4 footers. Is it correct that if I install them with 220 its cheaper to run???? Let's start from the beginning with this one, o.k.?


Cyndi.... I need to know the wattage of the heaters and the voltage they require. For a 24x24 room your going to need around 4800 watts worth of heaters if the room has average insulation and 8 foot ceilings.

No it is not cheaper it is the same cost. With 240 volt heaters you can get twice the heater in watts on smaller wire so you save on installation costs.

Example...2400/120 = 20 amps......2400/240 = 10 amps .... notice the higher voltage is exactly half the amperage to deliver the same power. Baseboard heat is a continuous load so the wire is sized at 125% of the rated load. Sooooo as for wire size the 20 amp load is 1.25 x 20 = 25 amps minimum ampacity of the wire. So you need a 30 amp single pole breaker on 10 awg copper wire.
For the 240 volt heater its 1.25 x 10 = 12.5 amps so 14 awg on a 15 amp double pole breaker.

Anyway give me the specs and manufacturer of the heaters.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Morning Stubbie- The 8' heater is 2000 watts, 240 volts, 8.3 amps. Mod#8f2000
The two smaller heaters are 500 watts, 240 volts, 2.1 amps each. Mod#2f500
The man. is cadet. Bought em last year from HD. Guess I need to use the two small ones somewhere else and get two more 8 footers.

Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Cyndi

I think probably the 6f1500's ( 6 footers) would be fine and that keeps you on a wire size that is much more manageable and you stay within branch circuit limits for baseboard heat. At 5000 watts that is 26 amps needed for the conductor ampacity. So 30 amp double pole breaker using 10/2 G awg copper cable then thhn/thwn through the conduit. Anyway 10 awg copper however you decide to do it. You are just slightly over 30 amps going with 3 eight footers and you wouldn't be code compliant by just a hair... 31 amps and 8 awg wire 40 amp breaker. For a single branch circuit serving more than one heater, the requirement is no more than 30 amps for a single family dwelling.
You should have manuals that give you the wiring diagrams and be sure to get thermostats, you can go to the cadet website for your choices. Being one room I would opt for a single wall mounted double pole thermostat that controlled all 3 heaters.

This is the cadet page with the thermostats that install on the heaters themselves.

http://www.cadetco.com/show_product.php?prodid=1004

As for the single thermostat they only need to be rated for the load so they need to be able to switch 21 amps or there abouts. The line voltage thermostats I'm familiar with usually will switch 22 amps . Any way your choice on how you want to do the thermostats.


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## Cyndi (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Stubbie! Would it be a bad idea to put the 8 footer on one circuit and the 2-6 footers on another circuit??? The reason I ask is because I have lots of #12 single wire- red, black, green, white but no #10 at this time. Would that work??? I could free up some breakers in my panel to make room for 4 more. Thanks. Cyndi


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Yep that would work just fine.


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