# hiring a licensed contractor without workers comp?



## pman6 (Jul 11, 2012)

I checked a license of a concrete contractor, and it says he doesn't have workers comp because california law does not require it for a crew of his size or something.

for building a simple driveway, would there be any risk?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

You would have to try pretty hard to get hurt while just finishing a driveway.


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## pman6 (Jul 11, 2012)

I just checked the license again, and it says this contractor claims to have no employees right now.

I wonder if he's using illegals.... here in so cal


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## Mort (Nov 26, 2008)

Finishing concrete, you can bet on it. If he shows up with day laborers, fire him on the spot. I guarantee you won't be happy with the results.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

should you decide to use a contractor without worker's compensation I would recommend contacting your home insurance company and find out if you can get a policy to cover you just in case someone was to be injured. I wouldn't let them know you had it. If they claim an injury you could find yourself footing the bill for their medical expense. of course I'm not an attorney nor do I know your state laws, but have seen it happen in the past. Being injured and claiming injured are two different things.

I'd take Mort's advise to heart


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

pman6 said:


> I checked a license of a concrete contractor, and it says he doesn't have workers comp because california law does not require it for a crew of his size or something.
> 
> for building a simple driveway, would there be any risk?


Not for me I just won't hire a contractor that does not pay workmans comp. Here is why 1 any and I mean any injury or accident from death to a stubbed toe rests on the shoulders of the home owner! That means if for some dumb reason God forbid death should happen to a worker or be hospitalized or what ever your home owners insurance pays the bill to their level of obligation your on the hook for the rest. 2 Good contractors pay in the system no matter how big or small of a crew they have. I have to pay in to it if I hire workers even if it is one person for the day. Best bet is to say thanks but no thanks and find a contractor that has workman comp. One more thing contractors that try and run with out it are the ones with the most safety violations. So be wise and make a good choice.
This is from my state laws very from state to state but it might help you understand what risks you might get into.http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Contractors/HireCon/


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

joecaption said:


> You would have to try pretty hard to get hurt while just finishing a driveway.


Back strain, Pulled muscles soft tissue injuries all can be faked and claimed and the home owner is in a legal nightmare, to the likes they wish they never had.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

joecaption said:


> You would have to try pretty hard to get hurt while just finishing a driveway.




un believable


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

joecaption said:


> You would have to try pretty hard to get hurt while just finishing a driveway.


You would have to try pretty hard to come up with 17,000 posts that make less sense than your's do...............:huh:


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## ktkelly (Apr 7, 2007)

The answer is simple.



He doesn't have a license, liability insurance, and worker's comp. 

*He isn't doing the job*.


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## FixitDragon (Feb 9, 2011)

We are confusing different kinds of coverage here.

WC is to cover employees of a company and protect the company in the event they get hurt on the job. If the company is a sole proprietorship, partnership, or only has shareholders, then everyone in the company has a vested interest and there is absolutly no reason to carry WC. This is because the the owner / partner of the company is not going to go after himself if he gets hurt on the job. Example - a plumber / owner drops a water heater on his foot. He will take himself to the doctor using his private medical insurance (or pay outright), and is not going to sue himself, he IS the compan and there is nothing to be gained.

Liability insurance is to cover and protect the company if the company hurts or damages someone else. Example - the above plumber drops the heater on the customer's foot, or the customer's car. The company's Liability Insurance will cover it.

Licensing requirements vary depending on the state and trade, here to get a specific licence you need to pass a test or prove a certain number of years experience.

Bonding - Is an insurance policy that the company will completely and correctly finish the job. Example - the plumber incorrectly or incompletely installed the heater and could not be contacted to correct it. The homeowner could go after the bond for compensation

The Homeowner's liability insurance is to protect the homeowner in case someone gets hurt on the homeowner's property due to an issue with the property. The plumber would have to prove that he got hurt directly due to some issue with the property.

My wife and MIL own / run a small C-corporation. We are licenced, bonded, and carry liability insurance. They do not carry WC on themselves. Depending on the job, we hire subs who are licenced for the specific type of work. These subs are also usually sole proprietors and have no need for WC. Sometimes we put someone on payroll for a specific job, in that case we call up our insurance company and carry WC for that job for that employee. In construction WC is EXPENSIVE, usually at 10% gross wages. So if we paid the employee $40 an hour, and the job takes 25 hours for $1000 gross wages, we get to pay the insurance company $100 for that employee for that job.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions. I have never found an owner opperator company that has no employees who carries WC insurance on themselves. If you looked us up right now, it would show we have no employees and no WC, but that does not mean we don't pay it if we put someone on payroll for a job. This is different than being licenced bonded and liability insured.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

fixit...goo info...thanks...

pman.....I hope your not using the same guy I used a few years ago for my garage foundation....before the job was done, he used 3 different 'crews'....guys from the HD parking lot....

The pour turned out right because the last 'crew' knew what he was doing....in fact, I've been using him directly ever since.....let me know if you need a good concrete or stucco guy....

If you don't mind, pm me the name of the 'company' I used....I don't want to talk details on an open forum..


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

One of the most reputable and prosperous roofing contractors around here was recently charges with not providing WC for his workers for years back. His first statement when asked why he did not provide WC for his employees was: "They are not my employees, they are all Licensed Contractors who are subbed out to me". Some of these workers have been with him for years, so how did this work? The owner of the roofing company paid for each workers business license every year thus making each one of them an independent contractor. The roofing company owner just kept them working almost every day of the year and paid them by company check each Friday. The case was dropped.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Thurman said:


> One of the most reputable and prosperous roofing contractors around here was recently charges with not providing WC for his workers for years back. His first statement when asked why he did not provide WC for his employees was: "They are not my employees, they are all Licensed Contractors who are subbed out to me". Some of these workers have been with him for years, so how did this work? The owner of the roofing company paid for each workers business license every year thus making each one of them an independent contractor. The roofing company owner just kept them working almost every day of the year and paid them by company check each Friday. The case was dropped.



That would not fly In Washington state. You hire a contractor he becomes your employee if he is behind on WC your on the hook for it.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

pman6 said:


> I checked a license of a concrete contractor, and it says he doesn't have workers comp because california law does not require it for a crew of his size *or something*.


I think you need to get all of the details straight. Look up my licence and it says I have no employees.

He may be running his crew though a temp service (which I do). In that case he doesn't need a policy, comp is covered through the agency and he then has "no employees".

I admit his story (as you tell it) sounds a little fishy...BUT...Just saying.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Nailbags said:


> That would not fly In Washington state. You hire a contractor he becomes your employee if he is behind on WC your on the hook for it. [/SIZE]


That wouldn't fly here either, although quite a few contractors attempt to pull it off here. I'm really surprised that the roofing company didn't have to pay back WC to the state with the few details Thurman provided. Having a liscense and liability insurance is only a minor fraction of the distinction between indep. contractor vs. employee.......


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

If he has plans of any employees on the job, make him supply the proof of coverage, even if it is specific for the duration of the job. 
If not, hire a different contractor.

It is very easy for a small contractor to file for exemption with "no employees" (I don't have any today) and then hire the employees that must be covered.

And, just because someone mentioned Roofers. In California, the sole proprietor of a roofing contracting business (C-39 license), must always carry workmen's comp. They are specifically called out as non-exempt.


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## RWolff (Jan 27, 2013)

> Here is why 1 any and I mean any injury or accident from death to a stubbed toe rests on the shoulders of the home owner! That means if for some dumb reason god forbid death should happen to a worker or be hospitalized or what ever your home owners insurance pays the bill to their level of obligation your on the hook for the rest.


There are videos from WorksafeBC on youtube (they are a Canadian version of OSHA in a way) showing how serious accidents and fatal accidents happen so easily, they use reconstructions and more to show how they happened.
One that comes to mind is about a continuous gutter installing contractor installing gutters on an apartment building, they checked out the power lines going to the building and made sure to avoid them etc.
They had a 56 foot aluminum gutter, guy on the roof of this 3 story building had one end, guy on the other end was climbing the extension ladder with the other end.
They failed to notice the HIGH VOLTAGE power lines partially obscured by trees, as the guy ascended the ladder the other end of the gutter was cantilevered downward by the guy on the roof, it contacted the high voltage lines and the current went into the guy on the ladder since he was on a metal ladder holding an aluminum gutter with one hand. He fell off the ladder 22 feet to the concrete patio below and was killed.

Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGBr_MfhhT0

Well worth watching their other videos to see how easy it is to get into trouble, even finishing a driveway...


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