# wiring diagram



## potter67 (Sep 9, 2007)

where can I find a wiring diagram on the internet showing how to hook up a new circuit of 4 recessed lights


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Honestly,
With a question like that, please look in the Yellow Pages for a Licensed Electrical Contractor.
Be Safe, not sorry...


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## sluggermike (Sep 2, 2007)

If you are up to it, you might go to HD or Lowes and pick up a book on beginning wiring. Black and Decker puts out a book that I found very helpful. I also have a book on advanced wiring which I referred to occasionally.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm curious, Mr. Garth? What sort of question is appropriate for a DIYer? For the OP pick up a book like "Wiring Simplified" so that not only can you figure out safely how to wire your RC's but also learn more about why your doing what you are doing by following a simple diagram. A little education goes along way !:thumbsup:


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

We are not dealing with instructions on how to play Monopoly with his intial posting.

If, after re-reading his intial post, if you have to ask that .... you are not looking at his basic skills. There is a LOT more to even basic wiring than a diagram.

And, and LITTLE knowledge is dangerous ..... especially without the proper training and experience, and that's exactly what we have here.

That should answer your curiosity.
I'm through with this thread.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

That's exactly why I recommended the original poster educate himself. I'm an electrician and yet, overall, the arrogance of some in our trade never ceases to amaze me. What we do is not rocket science, nor is it really very hard. It just must be done perfectly and SAFELY.


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> That's exactly why I recommended the original poster educate himself. I'm an electrician and yet, overall, the arrogance of some in our trade never ceases to amaze me. What we do is not rocket science, nor is it really very hard. *It just must be done perfectly and SAFELY.*


I have heard this comment many times. Unfortunately, without proper instruction, performing any electrical work without appropriate knowledge & 'hands on' experience, can be fatal. Why do electrical apprenticeships in many countries take 4 years to complete?

It's a bit like trying to learn to swim by reading a booking or getting swimming lessons over the internet.


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## sluggermike (Sep 2, 2007)

I agree with you Andy in ATL. I've done quite a bit of wiring taking into consideration that I'm not an electrician. I've changed out two 100 amp panels for 200 amp panels, rewired two house all with permits that were signed off. I've learned by reading books talking to electricians and doing. If I have any doubts about what I'm doing I always research the problem before continuing. So it can be done. If I didn't know how to swim, I might try leaning by reading books, searching the internet and talking to Olympic swimmers. I would definitely start in the shallow end of the pool. Just kidding.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

What's the use of having a do it your self site? SO PEOPLE CAN DO IT THEMSELVES! Today I worked on some fairly complicated 277V lighting with LV momentary switches and a photocell sensor as well as an occupancy sensor. This is an example of something that is not a do it yourself project!:blink: Installing four RC's in a ceiling is something that anyone who is willing to invest some time learning can handle! The fact that working on electricity "can" be fatal is true. Then again, I'm from ATL and driving around here can be fatal also. EDUCATION is key! And to say a four year apprenticeship is necessary to wire a simple circuit is silly and, I will repeat, arrogant!


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

"Then again, I'm from ATL and driving around here can be fatal also."

Come on Andy! Where else can they shut doun 2 interstates because of a loose sign????????


GO JACKETS!!!


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> What's the use of having a do it your self site? SO PEOPLE CAN DO IT THEMSELVES! Today I worked on some fairly complicated 277V lighting with LV momentary switches and a photocell sensor as well as an occupancy sensor. This is an example of something that is not a do it yourself project!:blink: Installing four RC's in a ceiling is something that anyone who is willing to invest some time learning can handle! The fact that working on electricity "can" be fatal is true. Then again, I'm from ATL and driving around here can be fatal also. EDUCATION is key! And to say a four year apprenticeship is necessary to wire a simple circuit is silly and, I will repeat, arrogant!


The comment is in no way arrogant. It was said in the health & safety interests of the OP.

You may also consider that if somebody who is not an electrician, does wiring etc in their home & then sells that home, they are then passing on any potential problems that they may have unwittingly created. Some of these problems have been known to kill people.

You are correct when you say you don't need to do a 4 year apprenticeship in order to do some basic wiring but the overall responsibility of doing any domestic electrical work will ultimately fall back onto the person who did it. In Australia, the electrician that does work in domestic premises is responsible for that work...forever or until somebody else changes it. This means that if his work kills or injures somebody, he's in deep poo.

Maybe we should ask the OP if he has had any electrical experience? Maybe you could 'instruct' him?


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Andy you're a heck of a man and stand out in a crowd. :thumbup:
I couldn't agree more with your statement about not being hard but it has to be done right, it couldn't be more true.

The devil is in the details, and MOST individuals have the capacity to learn. While it's important to know how do something, it's more important to realize when you don't know and need to do some research to get up to speed.


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Maybe we should ask the OP if he has had any electrical experience? Maybe you could 'instruct' him?[/quote]

In many jurisdictions, including my own, a home owner can pull their own permit and do their own work on their house. The fact that they are responsible is obvious and applies for much of what we do in life. The fact that electrical problems due to shoddy installation don't always manifest themselves immediately also can't be ignored. But that doesn't change the fact that after a little education any circuitry in a house is not beyond MOST peoples grasp. If people go to the effort to post a question then they are interested in the education. If the OP was more specific than more info could have been given. Not all people are interested in DIY. Quess how many times I've changed my oil? I pay a pro... but you can bet your tail if I was interested than it would take me ten minutes at a DIY change your oil forum to figure it out because it too isn't rocket science:laughing:


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## potter67 (Sep 9, 2007)

*wiring diagram for recessed lights*

Sorry, I did not give enough details. I have installed a new circuit in the breaker box and run a new line over to the kitchen ceiling. I can't find a wiring diagram for a series of recessed lights. any suggestions ?


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## potter67 (Sep 9, 2007)

ps: I installed a 15 amp breaker for the 4 recessed lights (50 watt bulbs each)


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Are you taking the incoming power to the switch, or the first light?
If to the switch, connect all white wires, all bare wires, and break the hot through the switch.
In each can, connect, all like colors to each other.
You will have an incoming wire and an outgoing wire and the wires for the cans.
At the last can, you will only have the icoming wire and the wires in the can.
If you are bringing the power into the first light, let me know then I will type the answer.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

jbfan said:


> ...if you are bringing the power into the first light..


It's basically the same except at the last light we will switch the black.

At the last light the white from the other lights will connect and end.
Run a wire from the light to the switch.
At the last light -- Connect the grounds together.
At the last light -- Connect the black from the other lights to the black in the new wire going to the switch.
At the last light -- Wrap a small piece of black electrical tape on the white to the new switch and connect it to the black at the light.
AT THE SWITCH, wrap a small piece of black electrical tape on the white and connect to the bottom. The black goes on the top, ground to the ground screw.
You can switch the lights anywhere along the line it doesn't have to be at the beginning or end. Just think of running a loop of black out to the switch and back to the lights. You can use one wire in this instance since you are taping each end of the white. 

At the light though, the whites will have to be connected at all the lights. The taped white is the exception...it will NEVER connect to another white...always to a black.

Hope that makes sense...good luck and turn the power off before starting.

Rip


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## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

*Corrections to Rippy*

The switch loop has to be run from the light where the power enters, it can't go to just any light unless you run xx/3 cable between the lights. 

The switch loop remarked white will connect to the incoming hot and the switch loop black will connect to the black from the lights. The incoming white will connect to the white from the lights.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Your right. In addition the xx/3 only needs to run between the lights before the switch. I try to avoid this and route it so I'm don't get into that situation...but sometimes...it just doesn't make sense. 

For example in my attic, the source comes in at the far corner, and there's 5 lights between the source and the switch in the garage. The lights are connected to the red in a 14/3 and the white...the blacks are connected straight through to the switch. I don't know if it's code or even a best practice...but I switch the red.


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> That's exactly why I recommended the original poster educate himself. I'm an electrician and yet, overall, the arrogance of some in our trade never ceases to amaze me. What we do is not rocket science, nor is it really very hard. It just must be done perfectly and SAFELY.


Good grief....Certified and competent electricians would never make such a statement!

Perhaps you've mimicked a couple of residential electrical installations, and now consider yourself an electrician, and only after killing somebody or helping somebody to kill themselves will change your attitude.


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Buffalo...
Absolutely true .... he's no licensed journeyman, and with that attitude .... never will be, yet alone a Master Electrician ... he's goin' help get someone hurt ....


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

buffalonymann said:


> Good grief....Certified and competent electricians would never make such a statement!
> 
> Perhaps you've mimicked a couple of residential electrical installations, and now consider yourself an electrician, and only after killing somebody or helping somebody to kill themselves will change your attitude.





JGarth said:


> Buffalo...
> Absolutely true .... he's no licensed journeyman, and with that attitude .... never will be, yet alone a Master Electrician ... he's goin' help get someone hurt ....



Dear oh dear!!! I was the arrogant one for even suggesting safety.

PS I'm sure the OP totally understands the 'instructive posts' so far. The poor bugger is probably totally bamboozled by now. Maybe he can reply to tell us how he is going regarding the 'instruction' so far? Maybe he is totally confused?

Dear potter67, how do you feel about this so far? Is more help required? If so, in what way can you be helped?


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

This is great... I sit for my unrestricted in GA in 3 mos. I have 10 yrs. total experience residential, commercial as well as atiny bit of industrial. All the OP has to do is purchase book mentioned in previous book and he won't need a diagram. I stand by all my previous posts. If you would like to debate big "tough" code and electrical issues avail yourself of other forums. But caution gentlemen, These other forums are for professionals only.:thumbsup: Remember that this is a DIY site...


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Andy in ATL said:


> This is great... I sit for my unrestricted in GA in 3 mos. I have 10 yrs. total experience residential, commercial as well as atiny bit of industrial. All the OP has to do is purchase book mentioned in previous book and he won't need a diagram. I stand by all my previous posts. If you would like to debate big "tough" code and electrical issues avail yourself of other forums. But caution gentlemen, These other forums are for professionals only.:thumbsup: Remember that this is a DIY site...


Good luck with you're test Andy.
Longest day in my life was that test in 94. Passed on the first try. I think the rate was 50% first time passing.
Where are you taking it?


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

Andy in ATL said:


> This is great... I sit for my unrestricted in GA in 3 mos. I have 10 yrs. total experience residential, commercial as well as atiny bit of industrial. All the OP has to do is purchase book mentioned in previous book and he won't need a diagram. I stand by all my previous posts. If you would like to debate big "tough" code and electrical issues avail yourself of other forums. But caution gentlemen, These other forums are for professionals only.:thumbsup: Remember that this is a DIY site...


It is true that putting a wire under a screw, and tightening the screw is not rocket science....a monkey can do it.

Monkeys cannot however learn how to design electrical systems, that is where the rocket science comes into play.

There are books on brain surgery too, but I would never suggest a DIYer to get one for any small brain surgery jobs (s)he may encounter.

I've been in the trade more than 25 years, I did attend school to learn electrical theory and how to design safe electrical systems. I have obtained (4) Master Electrician licenses, and I am certified by New York State as a journeyman inside wireman. I was found competent by (5) different goverment agencies to design and build any electrical system. 

It is never a good idea to tell anybody who is unfamilar with the electrical trade to make electrical installations because there are too many variables that can result in death.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

buffalonymann said:


> I've been in the trade more than 25 years, I did attend school to learn electrical theory and how to design safe electrical systems. I have obtained (4) Master Electrician licenses, and I am certified by New York State as a journeyman inside wireman. I was found competent by (5) different goverment agencies to design and build any electrical system.


That's funny. There is NO State certification in NY.I wonder what you mean by this......
Uness of course you are talking about the union, which I suspect you are. NO ONE uses the term "inside wireman" except the union.
In this case the "state" certification is meaningless in the non-union world.









buffalonymann said:


> It is never a good idea to tell anybody who is unfamilar with the electrical trade to make electrical installations because there are too many variables that can result in death.


So we ignore these folks and let them wing it, huh? You need to remember, some folks will do things no matter what. Us giving them a push in the right direction can only be a good thing. As long as we do push in the right direction.

At the same time, this iS a DIY site. With your opinion, what are you doing here?
I will say though, I DO NOT agree with the sentiment: _"What we do is not rocket science, nor is it really very hard."_
Anyone who makes a statement like that does not yet have the experience to make a statement like that. If you know what I mean.


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

speedy petey writes...._That's funny. There is NO State certification in NY.I wonder what you mean by this......_

_:laughing: _

New York State operates an apprenticeship program for inside wiremen. Those who successfully complete the program are issued certificates by NEW York State. Clearly you have no clue what you're talking about, try reading about it on New York State website
:whistling2:


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Like I said, the "certification" is from the union. 
There is NO required certification and NO state licensing.

Tell me, what does this certification enable you to do?


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Like I said, the "certification" is from the union.
> There is NO required certification and NO state licensing.
> 
> Tell me, what does this certification enable you to do?


:laughing: 

Like I said, New York State operates the apprenticeship program, and New york State issues the Certificate


What part of this did you not understand the first time?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

Is this "certificate" part of a union program?
I'm having a hard time getting an answer to this one.


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Is this "certificate" part of a union program?
> I'm having a hard time getting an answer to this one.


I told you who issues the certificates twice already, perhaps you are lacking in comprehension skills


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

buffalonymann said:


> I told you who issues the certificates twice already, perhaps you are lacking in comprehension skills


Don't even go there buddy. I guess I have my answer. 

Can you do me a favor though. Find a link to that NYS web page you were referring to. I searched and searched. I cannot find anything on it. If I need to be certified in NYS to be an electrical contractor I'd like to know how I go about getting this certification. 
I want to be up to speed.


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## Joba Fett (Aug 14, 2007)

Petey,...Buffalo...
You two outta' get married ...

Petey, do you take Buffalo.....he does ..
Buffalo, do you take Petey.....he does ..

I pronounce you *WIRE & NUT* .....


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Guys, the OP wasn't asking how to install a radio ra system for his entire house that he could program from his laptop while on a flight to Paris. I should have said that most DIY projects aren't rocket science or hard. NOWHERE in this thread have I said that anyone should do anything without researching some literature such as "wiring simplified" that explains in detail the dangers of working on electricity. :jester:


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## buffalonymann (Sep 14, 2007)

Andy....listen....I reviewed the post about the person who thought he had 3-phase in his house. You, stubbie, speedy, and others came up with the idea that he did have 3-phase. You all claim to be electricians, but none of you even knew what you were looking at. I knew right away what it was.

Had this guy tried to use a wirng diagram for a three phase system, on the 1phase system in his house, he would have had a serious explosion.

If you 'electricians' don't know what you're looking at, imagine what could happen to those who know nothing, and start playing around with their electric.

I undertsand this is a DIY orientated MB, but there are some things DIYers should not do


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

Buffalo, please explain 210V to ground on the A leg of this "single phase service". I won't disparage your qualifications but if this isn't a three phase delta with a "bastard leg" than the voltages as well as the picture make no sense. The explosion and the smoke letting happens when he plugs his computer into the A leg.:laughing: I certainly have much to learn and will learn till the day I die but explain to me how this is single phase.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

buffalonymann said:


> Andy....listen....I reviewed the post about the person who thought he had 3-phase in his house. You, stubbie, speedy, and others came up with the idea that he did have 3-phase. You all claim to be electricians, but none of you even knew what you were looking at. I knew right away what it was.
> 
> Had this guy tried to use a wirng diagram for a three phase system, on the 1phase system in his house, he would have had a serious explosion.
> 
> If you 'electricians' don't know what you're looking at, imagine what could happen to those who know nothing, and start playing around with their electric.


I never thought it would be possible......but I am speechless. :laughing:


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## potter67 (Sep 9, 2007)

*RE; Recessed lights*

First of all, thanks to jbfam, rippyskippy for ypur help. I thought this was a do it.yourself site.I really don't need lectures on safety or discourses on "union terms" or I told you so's. I have 40 years of experience in an industrial enviorment an participated in wiring projects. I have seen a " certified electricial" kill himself and seriously injure 2 other men, so I have 
a very serious respect for electricity. I have written up a lot of electricians for not following basic safety proceedures. with that let me get on to my problem.

I have hooked up a new circuit for 4 recessed lights ( each 50 watts). power is coming from the switch. I hooked up the first light and checked it
and it worked ok. I then hooked up the next 3, white to white and black to black turned on the breaker and then turned on the light switch. It immediately kicked off the breaker. I then went back and rechecked all connections and taped all connections, and turned on power, sme thing
breaker kicked off. I checked data on recessed lights it says 120 volts and
recommends noting over 50 watts. Does any one have any suggestions ?
tked


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## elkangorito (Sep 10, 2007)

Potter, please see the attached diagram. I think this is generally what you want to do, that is, switch 4 lights on & off with the one switch.

Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Potter.... if your wiring matches the diagram then you will have working lights. If no... you have a short somewhere in the chain. The most common thing I find is that home owners tighten the romex clamps so tight that they damage the hot conductors insulation and it shorts to the can wiring enclosure. Look very close to where the wires are at the clamps (if you used clamps) or where they enter the wiring compartment and look to see if you have a damaged hot wire that is shorting to the metal of a clamp or knockout. 

Stubbie


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 28, 2007)

What stubbie says plus I would unhook the last light in the series and check to see if there is still a fault. If there is, then I would keep working backwards toward the one light that does work. This will help you isolate the location of the fault. Best of luck and keep us posted!


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## mdlbldrmatt135 (May 31, 2006)

Amazing what google finds............

http://www.nationalponsi.org/ccr/Listings/nys_jatc_electrical_industry_home.htm


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

mdlbldrmatt135 said:


> Amazing what google finds............
> 
> http://www.nationalponsi.org/ccr/Listings/nys_jatc_electrical_industry_home.htm


Nice try. This is NOT administered by New York State. 
Read:

_"The National Electrical Course for Apprentice Inside Wiremen, which is administered by many local Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committees *in* New York State, has been developed by the National Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee for the Electrical Industry."_

Also:

*"Source of official student records:*_ Administrator of the apprenticeship program in the area or (where applicable) the Business Manager of the I.B.E.W. Local in the area. For further information on loca contacts, please consult the National Program on Noncollegiate Sponsored Instruction."_

This is simply the union apprenticeship program, although anyone can attend these classes. 
This is NOT STATE certification.


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