# Carrier Gas Furnace - Problems with Ignition



## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

This button you speak of, does it have two wires connected to it?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

Yes it does. Also, there is no pilot light on this furnace so I should not have written that. I just read more of the instructions and it definitely says not to try and light it on your own. It should light on its own....which it doesn't seem to always do, only when I shut the whole system down and then start it up again.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

No pilot light meaning no consistant flame that lights the gas whence the gas valve opens but rather a spark ignition which acts like a car spark plug or a hot surface ignitor which glows? 

Either way, the little button you are pressing which resets once pressed is called a flame rollout switch. Not good.

This means that your furnace is getting too hot and around the burner orifice. A flame rollout switch is exactly as it sounds, the flame is "rolling out" of it's burner compartment. The switch is doing it's job by shutting the gas (thus heat) off. The problem is not the switch.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

Doc Holliday said:


> No pilot light meaning no consistant flame that lights the gas whence the gas valve opens but rather a spark ignition which acts like a car spark plug or a hot surface ignitor which glows?
> 
> Either way, the little button you are pressing which resets once pressed is called a flame rollout switch. Not good.
> 
> This means that your furnace is getting too hot and around the burner orifice. A flame rollout switch is exactly as it sounds, the flame is "rolling out" of it's burner compartment. The switch is doing it's job by shutting the gas (thus heat) off. The problem is not the switch.


What could be the problem? Why is it getting suddenly so hot whereas a few weeks ago it was working fine?


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## Mr.HVAC (Jan 1, 2010)

jean,

There are alot of reasons why your furnace is overheating. Undersize return, undersize ducts, clogged evaporator coil, clogged filter, ect. 
Try this steps,

1. Check all your supply vents, make sure it is open. Take a flash light and look into it, make sure there is no obstruction.
2. Take a look at your return vent to make sure it's not block by furniture, sofa, ect. It's the biggest vent inside your house. 
3. Change the filter.

If all fail, your best bet is to call a tech.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

jean004 said:


> What could be the problem? Why is it getting suddenly so hot whereas a few weeks ago it was working fine?


If "all of a sudden" is truely it then an air flow issue as Mr. Hvac has said. Most likely an evaporator coil plugged with grime. The evaporator coil is only "used" in cooling mode but it sits in the way of air flow at all times. If it has dirt accumulated than the hot air during heating mode is restricted from flowing thus overheating.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Limits trip from not enough air flow. Roll out switches trip because of blocked flues or cracked heat exchangers.

Small cracks in the exchanger often cause no problems with the furnace operation so folks don't know they're there without annual inspections.Hopefully those inspections are done before the cold weather sets in since parts can take days or weeks to get. Once it has opened up enough to cause roll out then the furnace needs to be shut down, no matter how cold it is outside, and have the heat exchanger replaced or replace the whole furnace.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

We are ASSumeing that she has a limit issue, sounds more to me (re-read her original post ) that the unit is in lock out, and when she flips power it comes back on........seems that alot of us in here tend to "jump"to conclusions with out thinking out the whole situation. Jean if you still haven't gotten resolve on your issue, I suggest that you locate, remove and clean the flame sensor with sand paper or scotchbrite pad.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

Yea I caught that resetting power used to work but now the flame roll out switch must be pushed.IMO at that point it's time to inform the poster of potential serious problems that need checked by a good tech instead of jacking around.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

Marty S. said:


> Yea I caught that resetting power used to work but now the flame roll out switch must be pushed.IMO at that point it's time to inform the poster of potential serious problems that need checked by a good tech instead of jacking around.


Nope, when she pushes the "red reset button" she is breaking and resetting the low voltage, no different then resetting the ssu, or the main panel breaker......the furnace is in a lock out (most likely due to a dirty flame sensor) and is learning every cyce after a reset.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> We are ASSumeing that she has a limit issue, sounds more to me (re-read her original post ) that the unit is in lock out, and when she flips power it comes back on........seems that alot of us in here tend to "jump"to conclusions with out thinking out the whole situation. Jean if you still haven't gotten resolve on your issue, I suggest that you locate, remove and clean the flame sensor with sand paper or scotchbrite pad.


Where is this? Is that the box where the flame is in? If so, I assume I need to shut the whole thing down from the thermostat, breaker, switch, and also turn the furnace gas to off, and then open the box? I believe there is 5 screws or something on the box panel with 2 round windows where I can see the flame.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

jean004 said:


> Where is this? Is that the box where the flame is in? If so, I assume I need to shut the whole thing down from the thermostat, breaker, switch, and also turn the furnace gas to off, and then open the box? I believe there is 5 screws or something on the box panel with 2 round windows where I can see the flame.


 yes, yes and yes......its a steel rod, may have a 90 degree bend on it, may be straight, and it will be opposite of the ignitor. As stated earlier, remove it sand it and put it back in............easy repair to try, before doing much more evasive things to trouble shoot a simple issue.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> yes, yes and yes......its a steel rod, may have a 90 degree bend on it, may be straight, and it will be opposite of the ignitor. As stated earlier, remove it sand it and put it back in............easy repair to try, before doing much more evasive things to trouble shoot a simple issue.


I opened the box, and took some pictures. If possible, it would be great if you could point out what to remove from the box. I don't really want to touch anything I shouldn't.


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## how (Feb 26, 2011)

I can't see it in your picture but I would expect the flame sensor to penetrate into that box but be attached to and be able to be accessed without opening up that box cover. The flame sensor can probably be tracked as being only one of two components that will have a wire attached to it that are connected to the burner box. That assembly will probably be held in place on the outside with a single sheet metal screw.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

how said:


> I can't see it in your picture but I would expect the flame sensor to penetrate into that box but be attached to and be able to be accessed without opening up that box cover. The flame sensor can probably be tracked as being only one of two components that will have a wire attached to it that are connected to the burner box. That assembly will probably be held in place on the outside with a single sheet metal screw.


 yeah, its comming in from the bottom......left side most likley......


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

how said:


> I can't see it in your picture but I would expect the flame sensor to penetrate into that box but be attached to and be able to be accessed without opening up that box cover. The flame sensor can probably be tracked as being only one of two components that will have a wire attached to it that are connected to the burner box. That assembly will probably be held in place on the outside with a single sheet metal screw.


 
The only thing I can see attached to the burner box is the two wires that are attached to the "reset" or red flame rollout button that I mentionned above. On the inside of the burner you see a screw coming through and a round silver piece from the button showing on the inside of the box.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

you will be looking for a single white wire, coming up from the bottom left of the burner box, there will be a single 1/4 inch headed screw holding it in........can be tricky to get out


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> you will be looking for a single white wire, coming up from the bottom left of the burner box, there will be a single 1/4 inch headed screw holding it in........can be tricky to get out


I think I see it...I have no clue how I am going to get it out, and even better get it back in after as it is behind the big black pipe under the box, so getting in there with a scew driver will be very tricky.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

jean004 said:


> I think I see it...I have no clue how I am going to get it out, and even better get it back in after as it is behind the big black pipe under the box, so getting in there with a scew driver will be very tricky.


Got it out, was a pain to get out, and a bigger pain to put back. I ended up "sanding" the steel rod (straight) with steel wool...is that ok?

I've put everything back and waiting to see if the system will kick in.


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

jean004 said:


> Got it out, was a pain to get out, and a bigger pain to put back. I ended up "sanding" the steel rod (straight) with steel wool...is that OK?
> 
> I've put everything back and waiting to see if the system will kick in.


Great job jean, do you have a better appreciation of our skill and trade now? can't wait to hear if its fixed!


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> Great job jean, do you have a better appreciation of our skill and trade now? can't wait to hear if its fixed!


Harley, yes it does appear as though the furnace is back in working order. It has been going through its own cycle for the last 16 hours or so. I am not 100% convinced yet but it is looking good. I will monitor the situation closely over the next few days. For now however it appears I've avoided a dreaded house call and potentially a few hundreds of dollars for new unnecessary parts.

As for the appreciation of your trade, definitely, reaching in there and getting certain parts out is a real pain in the ASS. Its a good thing in my toolbox I have a magnet extender as I ended up losing the bolt a few times into a few unreachable parts of the furnace but was able to get it back with this tool.

Thanks a lot for all your help everyone!

Now if I can only get the air flow in the rooms at the front of the house to be stronger I will be in business...lol


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## Mr.HVAC (Jan 1, 2010)

LOL,

It's probably a misunderstanding from the read post. 
Sorry 



harleyrider said:


> We are ASSumeing that she has a limit issue, sounds more to me (re-read her original post ) that the unit is in lock out, and when she flips power it comes back on........seems that alot of us in here tend to "jump"to conclusions with out thinking out the whole situation. Jean if you still haven't gotten resolve on your issue, I suggest that you locate, remove and clean the flame sensor with sand paper or scotchbrite pad.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

jean004 said:


> Harley, yes it does appear as though the furnace is back in working order. It has been going through its own cycle for the last 16 hours or so. I am not 100% convinced yet but it is looking good. I will monitor the situation closely over the next few days. For now however it appears I've avoided a dreaded house call and potentially a few hundreds of dollars for new unnecessary parts.
> 
> As for the appreciation of your trade, definitely, reaching in there and getting certain parts out is a real pain in the ASS. Its a good thing in my toolbox I have a magnet extender as I ended up losing the bolt a few times into a few unreachable parts of the furnace but was able to get it back with this tool.
> 
> ...



Well everything was going good until yesterday. The furnace went into code 14 (lockout) again. I let it go to see if it would fix itself and fair enough, by the end of the day yesterday the temperature went back to normal. In the middle of the night it did it again, and this morning the temperature was 13 celsius degrees in the house and the furnace was in lockout again. I didn't do anything at first and the furnace went out of lockout mode and brought the temperature back up. This afternoon, the furnace went into lockout once again. 

The ignitor appears to be working well as there is a orange glow when the furnace is trying to start up. I cleaned the sensor the other day so it should be ok. The flame once lit up is blue with some orange in it. The main board is looking ok as well.

I wondering if I should just order a new sensor and ignitor to see if that resolves?

Do you have any other ideas of what this might be that I can perhaps do from here? Should I clean the actual burners? Would that do anything?


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

I have a few.......could be condensate backing up.......do you feel comfortable with removeing the condensate trap and flushing it out with warm bleach water solution?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> I have a few.......could be condensate backing up.......do you feel comfortable with removeing the condensate trap and flushing it out with warm bleach water solution?


Sure, if its not too much and I don't have to take the whole unit apart.

Regards,

JFG


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> I have a few.......could be condensate backing up.......do you feel comfortable with removeing the condensate trap and flushing it out with warm bleach water solution?


I found the trap, will Ineed
Anything to put evrything back together?


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

jean004 said:


> I found the trap, will Ineed
> Anything to put evrything back together?


 maybe a pair of pliers for the clamps?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> maybe a pair of pliers for the clamps?


I've got everything out, I was a bit unsure if I would need glue for one of the hose but I do not believe I will.

It is sitting in hot water and bleach right now. I rinsed it a few times and some gunk definitely came out. I also vaccumed it when I initially pulled it out.

The hose that go into the big black round thing where the collector tubes connect to....should I do anything with that?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

jean004 said:


> I've got everything out, I was a bit unsure if I would need glue for one of the hose but I do not believe I will.
> 
> It is sitting in hot water and bleach right now. I rinsed it a few times and some gunk definitely came out. I also vaccumed it when I initially pulled it out.
> 
> The hose that go into the big black round thing where the collector tubes connect to....should I do anything with that?


I've got everything back together now. I put the furnace on, the ignitor goes on, (the box becomes orange for 3 secs), did this 3 times and now the furnace locked out again. I just can't get it started now.


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

jean004 said:


> I've got everything back together now. I put the furnace on, the ignitor goes on, (the box becomes orange for 3 secs), did this 3 times and now the furnace locked out again. I just can't get it started now.


Just got it back on, I cleaned the sensor again and it made it on the 3rd try. Any other tricks, or should I try and replace the sensor? I'm assuming the problem is more with the sensor then the ignitor due to the orange glow? Perhaps I am wrong?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

jean004 said:


> Just got it back on, I cleaned the sensor again and it made it on the 3rd try. Any other tricks, or should I try and replace the sensor? I'm assuming the problem is more with the sensor then the ignitor due to the orange glow? Perhaps I am wrong?


Flames going well now, but rather than being a nice blue, there is blue and a lot of orange in the flame as well. My understanding from what I have read is that this should not be the case?


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## harleyrider (Feb 20, 2007)

So you are saying that the burners never lit?


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## jean004 (Nov 1, 2010)

harleyrider said:


> So you are saying that the burners never lit?


Not at first. I just noticed a little while ago that there was quite a bit of water in the pipes outside the furnace that go into the drain....I re-leveled these hose and seeing if that works. I think it is...


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