# THIS is why you don't use Latex Deck Stain



## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

This deck was stained with Behr Latex Deck & Fence stain less than 2 years ago right before my girlfriend bought the house. I saw the cans in the basement on one of the walkthroughs and knew what was going to happen. It was probably 1/2 this bad after the first winter. No, it is not a problem with the wood or application or anything like that. It is what latex stain does on bare wood. USE OIL BASED STAIN !!!!


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## Lovegasoline (Sep 11, 2009)

That's stain? It looks like a completely opaque surface film, like paint.

I do not know about decks, but I've been a woodworker for 30 years and _all_ the stains and dyes I've ever worked with were absorbed by the wood, they did not build a film. The closest to a surface film I've used is a glazing operation, using acetone base stain through a spray gun, but that's as thin as water, transparent, and also builds no appreciable film.

Latex Stain?


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

That's one of the problems with Latex Stain. It doesn't penetrate into the wood.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Lovegasoline said:


> That's stain? It looks like a completely opaque surface film, like paint.
> 
> I do not know about decks, but I've been a woodworker for 30 years and _all_ the stains and dyes I've ever worked with were absorbed by the wood, they did not build a film. The closest to a surface film I've used is a glazing operation, using acetone base stain through a spray gun, but that's as thin as water, transparent, and also builds no appreciable film.
> 
> Latex Stain?


You obviously have not seen BEHR stain applied. This is very common with this product. Do a google search and see for yourself.

Behr stain sucks.:yes:


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## poppameth (Oct 2, 2008)

Yep, Behr is famous for this. Other acrylic stains I've seen work just fine. Oil doesn't penetrate that well any more either. Too must solvent has been pulled from oils now days.


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## Red Squirrel (Jun 29, 2009)

It gives it that "rugged haunted house" look. I like it.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

poppameth said:


> Yep, Behr is famous for this. Other acrylic stains I've seen work just fine. Oil doesn't penetrate that well any more either. Too must solvent has been pulled from oils now days.


I couldn't agree more, most acrylic stains do work just as well as oils and even out performing oils on vertical surfaces, most oils don't absorb into the wood that well on exterior staining and are becoming harder to buy, I prefer to use alkyd on walking surfaces. There is also some misconception that an exterior oil base stain won't peel or crack, but they can.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

housepaintingny said:


> I couldn't agree more, most acrylic stains do work just as well as oils and even out performing oils on vertical surfaces,* most oils don't absorb into the wood that well on exterior staining* and are becoming harder to buy, I prefer to use alkyd on walking surfaces. There is also some misconception that an exterior oil base stain won't peel or crack, but they can.


I know you guys are very knowledgeable painters but you are wrong about oils. Oils time and time again will outperform Latex and Acrylics when it comes to bare wood. I can even get Nester in here and he will explain to you the characteristics of how oils have smaller pigments or whatever for superior penetration. Latex is fine for topcoats and drywall, but fails time and time again on bare wood. I kneo that oils "Can" peel, but comapred to latex they are basicly peel free.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

On a walking surface I would use oil or an alkyd, but for siding or fences I prefer to use an acrylic stain when using a solid or semi-solid, if using a translucent I use an alkyd,


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## poppameth (Oct 2, 2008)

housepaintingny said:


> On a walking surface I would use oil or an alkyd, but for siding or fences I prefer to use an acrylic stain when using a solid or semi-solid, if using a translucent I use an alkyd,



Agreed. At this point a S/T still has enough solvent to make the oil work better. For a solid, there isn't enough solvent to give oil the edge. I've started seeing failures with the oil solids sooner than the acrylics now. Rubbol DEK use to last many years but since they went to the Next Wave technology I'm seeing issues with it peeling after only a couple of years. Sikkens must feel the same if they've discontinued the oil solids in favor of the acrylics.


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## nalabud (Jun 19, 2010)

*Would like to mention....*

The pictures that were posted of the deck look EXACTLY like MY deck does.....SAME stain....TWO years later! Only, we made the very unfortunate mistake of staining a 3 tier deck that is HUGE & levels off at our pool! What a nightmare. I am not even sure where to begin to try to fix this mess. We also stained a retaining wall, all the deck rails, lattice, etc. The only thing that has worn away though is the decking where you walk. Any ideas on how to fix all of that & STILL match it to the rest of everything else??? I don't believe that I will ever use BEHR Stain again!
:furious:


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

I am on the deck 3 times a week and every time I am out there I scrape some more off with just my feet. I plan to chemicly strip the walk on surfaces (unless it all chips off in the next couple weeks which could happen) and then use a semi-transparent oil finish as close to the solid color as I can. Will it look 100%? No, but it will protect the wood and the combination of semi-trans plus sold color may work out well. You can use a solid stain on the deck but then it will tend to show more scuff marks. 

Other options are to take the boards and flip them over. Some of them are already cupped the wrong way anyways. I am not going to go too crazy on this deck as they did the concrete footings below grade and dirt is right against wood. Pressure treated or not that will easily chop 10 years off the life of your deck.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

*Deck Restoration*

You need to strip it with a Stain & Sealer Remover, then apply a neutralizer/brightner, followed by sanding as needed, let dry at least 48 hours, apply new stain, SW has a good deck striper and neutralizer that will also brighten, wolman also has some great products


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## FrankL (Jun 9, 2010)

I have used Wood RX which is acrylic. I know others who have used it in warm and sunny climates. I generally do not like solid stains. Clear or semi transparent usually make the wood look great. 

Frank Lardino


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## houseinthewoods (Jan 17, 2010)

Will the strippers and cleaners mentioned above remove Thompson Water Seal? It claims to penetrate, but the deck looks like crap even though water still beads up on the surface. I doubt anything else will stick at this point.


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## hyunelan2 (Aug 14, 2007)

The Thompson Water Seal (with natrual cedar tint) did the same thing on my deck after one winter.


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## handycanuck (Jun 18, 2010)

I had the same issue a few years ago with the same product and colour. I prepped the deck properly and after the first winter, it started to peel. 

garbage product.....


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## Chiurato (Mar 23, 2011)

Thompson's isn't any good. Mine looked the same way when I bought my house (175 feet of deck)! Power washed is all off, sanded it real nice, lots and LOTS of work. Then I used Rymar. Really expensive but worth every penny when you figure in your time. Also you have to hit it with at least two coats and back brush it so its no small job. With Thompson's and the others you will be doing it every year. I'm on year three and mine still looks fine so really when you figure it all out (time plus buying stain every year) it really is cheaper.

I was so impressed I also did my cedar siding. It cost me some major $$$ but I'm happy with it.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey my old post.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Yeah, but some things are worth bringing up again.... what ever happened to your deck?
Did you take a broom to it and sweep the rest of that garbage off? :laughing:

DM


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

DangerMouse said:


> Yeah, but some things are worth bringing up again.... what ever happened to your deck?
> Did you take a broom to it and sweep the rest of that garbage off? :laughing:
> 
> DM


LOL. I never mentioned in this thread that the fence was done the same time the deck was by the original homeowners and it was just as bad. I ended up going after the fence last summer instead of the deck. I blasted the hell out of it with a power washer. I only damaged a very small area in a couple spots. Me and the girlfriend (mostly me) then went around with a bunch of sanding blocks getting all the loose chips and stuff off the fence. 6 Gallons of Pittsburg Sunproof and it looks great. I actually had the girlfriend out for a while rolling ahead of me with me backbrushing. I would have went with oil but after power washing there was still 50% of the latex stain left on the fence and never ever ever put oil based stain over latex. Total time was 3 full days. 

The deck will be tackled this summer. I will strip the deck boards and use Sikkens oil but the spindels are in good shape so I may leave them or just give them another coat of Latex.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> LOL. I never mentioned in this thread that the fence was done the same time the deck was by the original homeowners and it was just as bad. I ended up going after the fence last summer instead of the deck. I blasted the hell out of it with a power washer. I only damaged a very small area in a couple spots. Me and the girlfriend (mostly me) then went around with a bunch of sanding blocks getting all the loose chips and stuff off the fence. 6 Gallons of Pittsburg Sunproof and it looks great. I actually had the girlfriend out for a while rolling ahead of me with me backbrushing. I would have went with oil but after power washing there was still 50% of the latex stain left on the fence and never ever ever put oil based stain over latex. Total time was 3 full days.
> 
> The deck will be tackled this summer. I will strip the deck boards and use Sikkens oil but the spindels are in good shape so I may leave them or just give them another coat of Latex.


I can tell from looking at the condition that wood that it sat uncoated for many a hot sunny day prior to that coat of stain. I would highly suggest, at the cost of another coating failure, that the horizontals get a thorough sanding. That's the primary reason that coat failed as it did. UV damaged wood can not hold a stain, and powerwashing alone does not solve the problem.


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## NCpaint1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Matthewt1970 said:


> The deck will be tackled this summer. I will strip the deck boards and use Sikkens oil but the spindels are in good shape so I may leave them or just give them another coat of Latex.


Good luck with that....Sikkens doesnt make a solid oil anymore :furious: They switched to a "hybrid" formula. Seems to be doing pretty well, this will be my 3rd or 4th year selling it, and so far no complaints. :thumbsup:

They still offer an oil Transparent stain, and introduced a "hybrid" transparent late last season.


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## Faron79 (Jul 16, 2008)

JS's post FINALLY hit on the main reason that coating didn't hold...

NO/LITTLE sanding.

From what I can see under the peeled coating, the wood itself wouldn't have held much of anything...for long.

You can have the cleanest deck on the planet...p-washed/stripped/neutralized/brightened/magic powder/whatever.............

If it's not sanded occasionally, IT WON'T HOLD SQUAT....FOR LONG.

It's literally that simple.

(sorry I'm so vague about this...:jester

Faron


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

NCpaint1 said:


> Good luck with that....Sikkens doesnt make a solid oil anymore :furious: They switched to a "hybrid" formula. Seems to be doing pretty well, this will be my 3rd or 4th year selling it, and so far no complaints. :thumbsup:
> 
> They still offer an oil Transparent stain, and introduced a "hybrid" transparent late last season.


Sorry, I should have been more clear. I would never put a solid stain on a walking surface. 

"I can tell from looking at the condition that wood that it sat uncoated for many a hot sunny day prior to that coat of stain. I would highly suggest, at the cost of another coating failure, that the horizontals get a thorough sanding. That's the primary reason that coat failed as it did. UV damaged wood can not hold a stain, and powerwashing alone does not solve the problem."

When you have massive sections peel like that, you will have sun damage in no time in the peeled sections. If I peel back a new section on that deck you will see the wood is in good shape.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Matthewt1970 said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I would never put a solid stain on a walking surface.
> 
> "I can tell from looking at the condition that wood that it sat uncoated for many a hot sunny day prior to that coat of stain. I would highly suggest, at the cost of another coating failure, that the horizontals get a thorough sanding. That's the primary reason that coat failed as it did. UV damaged wood can not hold a stain, and powerwashing alone does not solve the problem."
> 
> When you have massive sections peel like that, you will have sun damage in no time in the peeled sections. If I peel back a new section on that deck you will see the wood is in good shape.


Why not put a solid stain on a walking surface? 

Research UV and lignin. Any wood that is exposed to UV for any length of time requires a sanding to remove damaged wood fibers. I believe the lack of understanding of that fact is a major contributor to deck failure where people complain about the deck product. I'll bet if you had a picture of that deck before it was done last, the fail pattern would pretty close to what it is now. And, the areas that aren't failed would have a decent surface. Look closely at the pictures. The splitting wood, the lateral consecutive splitting in the middle of the bottom pic, and the rivelets (channels, third pic) in the wood are indicators of uv damage. If I remember correctly, you're girl bought that house 2-3 years ago and the deck was done by the previous ho, right? That deck was neglected for long stretches of time. I'm away from my home pc where I have some links which i'll post on return.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

The words "solid stain" never made sense to me..... if it's opaque, I'd just call it paint! :laughing:
This thread sure makes me glad I did my porch in Jarrah and Ipey and all I have to do IF I want it pretty and new looking is get a rag on a stick and mop on some boiled linseed oil!

DM


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

jsheridan said:


> Why not put a solid stain on a walking surface?
> 
> Research UV and lignin. Any wood that is exposed to UV for any length of time requires a sanding to remove damaged wood fibers. I believe the lack of understanding of that fact is a major contributor to deck failure where people complain about the deck product. I'll bet if you had a picture of that deck before it was done last, the fail pattern would pretty close to what it is now. And, the areas that aren't failed would have a decent surface. Look closely at the pictures. The splitting wood, the lateral consecutive splitting in the middle of the bottom pic, and the rivulets (channels, third pic) in the wood are indicators of uv damage. If I remember correctly, you're girl bought that house 2-3 years ago and the deck was done by the previous ho, right? That deck was neglected for long stretches of time. I'm away from my home pc where I have some links which i'll post on return.


Solid stains will typically not penetrate as well as semi-transparent stains which leads them to forming more of a film on the surface. That can lead to the film layer having a better bond to itself than the wood. They also show more marks and wear. If the wood itself was to blame then there would be a small layers of wood coming up with the chips and that just isn't the case here. 

Keep in mind this is Latex Stain and it typically will not penetrate wood as well as oil.


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## Mbrooks (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm a paint rep and CIL is bringing back an oil based stain exclusive to Home Depot canada. It's called Fine Wood Finish. This is not just a stain, but a varnish like finish. Like all CIL stain, they are hybrids, and outlast most of the 100% latex stains on the market. Hybrid stains have natural oils (linseed oils based) which penetrate into the wood. 
Howevwr proper prep is extremely important.


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