# What's funny about the Homeowners' naivete?



## HowUthink (Mar 20, 2013)

Hello, 

I happened across a lengthy discussion on the contractors' side about the seemingly idiotic assumptions homeowners make when they try to get a "ballpark estimate" over the phone. Could it be we're not greedy or moronic, but just naive?

I got that there are a zillion variables, and respect a professional's desire to give an accurate estimate, as well as avoid shooting himself in the foot (losing the job, or getting stuck with a nightmare he doesn't want for any kind of money) by over- or under-estimating, sight unseen. :whistling2:Those were some impressive and funny horror stories.

But I also thought, "Hey, guys, were not stupid, so have a little respect, please...." I mean, we all know when we have our car oil changed that the BMW garage probably costs more, and 5 vs 4 quarts, or full synthetic vs house stock run higher, but if we called XYZ garage and asked, "How much for an oil change?" and heard, "I have no clue without seeing your car first", :huh: we'd be amazed and disgusted. We would wonder how they got a license, right? Mostly, a car is a car, so there is a range, right? So it could seem.

Most of us homeowners have to hire many good-sized jobs, before we (sadly) learn how many variables there are, and how wide the range of professionalism and craftsmanship are. And how few "standard" things there really are, especially in custom or antique (aka "money pit") houses! 

We learn about the evil-doers and low-ballers (usually the same) only by asking around to see if we are being charged WAY under, or way over. the usual, a sure sign of something not right. When I ask for a ball park now, it is just so I will recognize these creeps before I get taken to the cleaners as I have been more than once. 

I now know a reputable contractor or trades-person will take the time to give an informed written estimate based on the facts. But I learned the hard way, and NOT by trying to grab a bargain :no:; I was just a beginner (and single woman with no DIY knowledge), with an old house.

There's nothing more embarrassing and infuriating to, when we tried to ask around, have been told, "You can't ask for a ballpark" and then AFTER we're ripped off, also be told, "A new bathroom for under X grand??? What kind of an idiot are you! No wonder you got ripped off!" Soooo, are we supposed to know the common-sense "ballpark", or not?

I'd have been grateful for a few warnings from a kind contractor, rather than the sarcastic laughs a few of you guys have about the people who "want it done yesterday for half price". (Amazing how some who would NEVER give the "idiot homeowner" a "ballpark" over the phone, are sometimes quick to tell you how far OUT of the ball park your evildoer's price was, after the fact. Some even laugh at the things you were told made it more or less expensive, to justify the "idiot price" you believed was honest.)

It seems the real truth is that you are expected to learn by osmosis, from friend-of-a-friend, and your own more expensive DIY failures. Which can leave those of us who have no trades-persons in the family clueless. Not fair!

But I thought of a new way to look at this from both sides...

I do diabetes patient education for a living, and I know that eating 15 grams of sugar will raise the average person's blood sugar about 20 points. So why, the "average" ("standard") person asks me, does it not work that way when he eats 15 grams? Isn't that what all the diabetes guide books say? (Yep, it is!) They naturally get a little steamed when I tell them, "It's not quite that simple.":no:

I could ask:

How...

...old are you?
...fat are you?
...much do you move around?
...late in the evening do you eat?
...much stress do you have?
...sex are you?
...fat or fiber did you eat with it?
...many hours since your previous meal?
...time since your last dose of medicine?
...and a whole lot more.

So, contractors, I must ask you diabetic (and almost-diabetic) guys, how much of those variables did YOU know? But also to other frustrated laypeople, does this help us understand why we can't get an accurate estimate over the phone? Once I saw the parallels, it did for me. 

Of course, I've also learned many of the "slime ball warning signs", too, so it's been a while since I've been TOO badly burned. I've gotten used to the last-minutes add-on mark-ups, too, and that I have yet to see a last-minute "came in under budget". Best of all, I have had the luck to hire some good guys at last. 

Sign me,
Wiser Now in St. Louis

P.S. I never use mood icons, but it has been fun adding irritation value to this post. Hope you can laugh with me.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Bravo!!

I love HowUthink . 

I too found this place as a result of getting burned over some reno's. I vowed it would never happen again.

I can't comment on the other place, but you will find for the most part that the Gents and Ladies here are of the non condesending variety although the pricing thing is as you so eloquently pointed out..an issue

Welcome


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Comparing an oil change to repairs on your house is not fair. An oil change is almost exactly the same on all cars. There is not much that is the same between houses one of them being age and every one of them being built different.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

It has been stated that understanding the variables was brought to light through her diabetes education.
Just as two differing bodies burn carbs at differing rates


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

joed said:


> Comparing an oil change to repairs on your house is not fair. An oil change is almost exactly the same on all cars. There is not much that is the same between houses one of them being age and every one of them being built different.


But it might be fair if BMWs were each hand made by a different person, using different parts and instead of an oil change the question was "My BMW stopped running. How much time and money to fix it?":laughing:

This is why most reputable contractors offer free estimates. But here we don't worry about that since we are here to help you Do-It-Yourself.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

I thought it was a great post. 

Kinda like a "Light Bulb Moment" for her (was my take anyway).

Welcome to the forum...Hope ya come back and see us again ya hear.


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It sounds like the OP went over to Contractor Talk and got a little steamed over contractors blowing off steam about their clients on their own dedicated site. Seh should try to bear in mind that over here is the place where contractors go to help DIYer's free of charge.

If the OP is a Diabetes educator, she is probably a Doctor or RN. As such, she has undoubetedly heard conversations in the break room about dopey patients with unrealistic expectations. That is how she should look at Contractor's Talk- as a sort of break room for contractors.


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## Dave88LX (Nov 10, 2011)

I noticed ContractorTalk redirects you to this site if you click that you are a homeowner. Perhaps the sites are related/co-owned. I'm too new to know.

I'm glad this forum here exists though.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

I think she hit it perfectly. I don't do remodels, so its a little bit different. But if I get a call for an insulation job, I ask some questions about what it entails, and throw some numbers around. Saves myself some time too. I had a guy freak out on me for being twice his first estimate. I just told him beware of the red flags and have a nice day.

Its qualifying, and it helps both contractor and homeowner. The only problem is when the homeowner will not reveal any of the numbers at their disposal. If I don't know your budget, I don't know what your capable of accomplishing, and I really don't like my time wasted when I spend an hour on an estimate with somebody to find out they have a $500 budget. Works both ways I suppose


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## dftc (Nov 12, 2012)

First off, I get that the guys on Contractor Talk were blowing off steam in a semi-private setting. I work with the public and some of the things I say when in the company of other people in my field would probably not go over well if we were overheard.

However, one of the reasons I became a guy who does so much DIY work is because of bad experiences with contractor quotes.

Shortly after I bought my first house I had two separate plumbing issues arise. I'd never had to call a plumber before so I started calling around to ask for quotes and quickly heard everyone say they needed to look in person and would not quote over the phone. I was annoyed but agreed in both cases. In the first case the guy gave me such a ridiculously high quote I almost yelled at him to get out of my house. He wanted almost $1000 to replace a worn out gasket. He even told me that's all he planned to do, although he made it sound very complex. I could easily see that it wasn't complex and I did it myself for under $3 and about 10 minutes of work. He still charged me $20 just for the quote. I suspect many people would just pay and that's why he had no trouble quoting me that price with a straight face.
The second plumber to come to my house was a little more reasonable, but still wanted $350 to replace the flex pipe on top of my water heater in addition to other work I called him for, unrelated to the flex pipe (replacing a leaking gate valve with a ball valve). When I told him I'd replace the flex pipe myself he said he couldn't do the job without replacing it himself. I thanked him and fixed it all myself. It was a very small leak so I had plenty of time to teach myself to solder. It was far less intimidating than I thought and I found I'm pretty good at it.

The thing that really struck me was in both cases these guys looked at my plumbing and then consulted binders full of prices to tell me what they would charge. My immediate thought is, "So there is a base price they could have told me over the phone." It would have been easy to say something like, that work starts at X dollars, but there are many variables and we can't give you a quote without seeing it." Even saying, "That will probably cost more than X dollars, but I cant give you a better number without looking." Would make me feel better about the honesty of the guy I'm calling.

Basically I get the feeling that one of the primary reasons for an in-person quote is to add some subtle psychological pressure to accept the quote when it is delivered in-person. Most people have a hard time saying no to a another person's face. It's also a hassle to set up appointments with multiple contractors for small repairs, so I suspect many homeowners just go with the first guy who shows up and seems somewhat competent. Especially if that guy offers to fix it right then.

Like the OP said, this feeling gets re-enforced every time I read a comment from a pro here who says it's impossible to give a ballpark figure, then scoffs when a homeowner posts a cost that the pro feels is too low or too high. I read those comments here constantly, for big and small jobs, and it really annoys me that some pros can have such disrespect for the homeowners who could be paying them.

I don't do most of my work as DIY because I'm cheap. In fact, I suspect I sometimes spend much more than I need to as I learn the proper way to do something. I also place a high value on my time. I work long hours at a fairly stressful job. Coming home to more work isn't the highlight of my day.
A big part of the reason I DIY is because I've learned that without a base knowledge of what things should cost it's too easy for a disreputable contractor to take advantage of me. I have no problem paying a pro to do good work, but it really irritates me to feel like I'm being lied to or manipulated. I have no good way to know who's fair and honest when the industry seems to be colluding to hide prices.
Is the guy quoting me a lower price than the others being fair, or is he a hack? Is the guy with the higher price really good and going to do superior work or is he trying to rip me off? I have no good way to know when everyone refuses to even discuss prices in general terms.

I'm sure some pros will get upset. I've seen a lot of posts about pricing with pros angrily defending their practices. I still haven't read an argument that has swayed my way of thinking. If I had I'd be happily paying plumbers and electricians to do work on my house while I relax in front of the TV with a beer.

On the plus side I'm a little more well-rounded person than I used to be. I know how to sweat copper fittings now.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

I've never given an estimate over the phone. When I get the call, I tell them I'll come over and look at what they want and then give them a price, no charge. I can't ballpark because so many homeowners haven't a clue what is involved in electrical jobs and therefore cannot give an educated and detailed explanation of the work they want done, unless it's something simple, like installing a ceiling fan.

Yes, there are contractors with no conscience. And there are contractors who are hacks. But there are also many very good contractors. Being in the trades, I can spot who is who fairly easily. But I've walked on to jobs where I have felt sorry for the homeowner. They didn't have a clue, until the end, or worse, after they paid for the work and everyone was gone.

I understand the OP's side of things but it seems the OP has run into the hack and got taken and has learned from the school of hard knocks. If so, that's unfortunate. It's sad there are hacks like that out there creating this kind of thing, and giving all contractors a bad name along the way. Maybe that's why Angie's List is so successful.

But to the "no ballpark over the phone" issue, that depends on the job and the ability of the homeowner to explain exactly what they need. If you say, "I just want to change a few fixtures" and I find out your wiring or loading or switching needs attention first, that ballpark estimate goes right out the window. Then the homeowner gets upset and possibly refuses to pay for the extra and much needed work. One never knows what they are getting into until they open up the patient. If you want a ballpark estimate, don't hold my feet to the fire if the final costs are more because you didn't, or couldn't, explain all the work that needed to be done when you pressed for that sight unseen ballpark estimate.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

OP joins...1st and last post is a long one....has not been back to even read the responses......go figure...


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

It helps me a lot knowing many of you guys are dealing with a number of the same problems I run into. People will hold you to a price even over 20 dollars. A job you told them over the phone would be 150 dollars. Or the homeowner that gets impatient and gets in the middle of what you are doing and does what you told them they can not do until you were done with your part. What about the homeowner that calls you out to tell them how to snake a circuit through their house only so they can then do it themselves. No, I do not understand how contractors could show resentment to homeowners


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

ddawg16 said:


> OP joins...1st and last post is a long one....has not been back to even read the responses......go figure...


It's kind of like banging on your front door, asking to be let in, then pooping on your living room floor and leaving. :blink:

After being pressed one time for a ballpark figure over the phone by a doctor, I said to him, "I don't feel too good. Can you give me a ballpark figure what it will cost for you to make me feel better?" He replied, "When can you stop by to take a look at the job?"

But I think too often we shoot ourselves in the foot. We devalue our knowledge and experience. There's no shortage of professional trades people willingly giving out free advise, on forums and elsewhere. We spend years learning the trade, then more years improving our knowledge and skills only to jump at the chance to help someone out, for free, who is trying to avoid paying one of us to the work in the first place. It's only when we stop handing out free advise that non-professionals will respect us for our knowledge and skills, and willingly pay us to do the work.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm glad a few of you give estimates over the phone or at least after a free visit. There are jobs that I would have guessed cost a few hundred dollars but they're much more in _every_ case, and it's good to know that ahead of time. I recently read that building a typical bedroom closet costs about $2000. I would have figured about $100 for drywall and drywall supplies, $50 for framing, $50 for wooden shelves and rails, $200 for doors, $40 an hour for four hours work for one man. That's $560. If I had three times that amount I'd feel more than confident that was enough but it wouldn't be.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

One thing many homeowners can't wrap their heads around is our time giving them estimates for free means lost revenue if the homeowner is just trying to see if they can afford the work they want done. I've also heard homeowners complain about paying for travel time. Time is money. If someone came up to the homeowner and asked them to do their job for free, most would say, "NO WAY!" 

About the closet...


What kind of demolition has to be done before the closet installation can begin?
What kind of closet is this? One with a lot of shelves? One just for hanging clothes? Or one with slide out shelves and drawers?
What kind of materials do you want used? Metal or wood? Laminated MDF or finished mahogany?
Do you want the paint on the exterior to match exactly the rest of the walls in the room?
Do you want a self-taught DIYer to do the installation or a seasoned professional who learned his or her craft under another seasoned professional?

Sure, a closet could cost you $560 or ten times that much. It all depends on what you want in the finished product.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

The $2000 cost for a closet came from this post on another forum. The specs look like it's a simple closet. Maybe lower cost than an average bedroom closet. So, if I'm the home owner and specify the relevant things for a simple closet like that, the cost would be almost four times what I would have expected. Even a rough estimate would likely be much higher than what I expected and would be helpful. I might wonder "how can that be" and look for a handyman who charges something closer to $560, or do it myself.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

Dorado said:


> I'm glad a few of you give estimates over the phone or at least after a free visit. There are jobs that I would have guessed cost a few hundred dollars but they're much more in _every_ case, and it's good to know that ahead of time. I recently read that building a typical bedroom closet costs about $2000. I would have figured about $100 for drywall and drywall supplies, $50 for framing, $50 for wooden shelves and rails, $200 for doors, $40 an hour for four hours work for one man. That's $560. If I had three times that amount I'd feel more than confident that was enough but it wouldn't be.


Four hours of work to demo, frame, hang/finish drywall, paint/stain, install base/doors/casings?

Not reasonable at all. I suppost you think this would all be accomplished in half a day also?


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

sixeightten said:


> Four hours of work to demo, frame, hang/finish drywall, paint/stain, install base/doors/casings?
> 
> Not reasonable at all. I suppost you think this would all be accomplished in half a day also?


No demo. In an existing corner, but I tried calculated cost for three walls plus doors. If I'm off by 4 hours, that's still only a $160 difference.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dave88LX said:


> I noticed ContractorTalk redirects you to this site if you click that you are a homeowner. Perhaps the sites are related/co-owned. I'm too new to know.
> 
> I'm glad this forum here exists though.


Yes, contractor talk is a sister site.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> No demo. In an existing corner, but I tried calculated cost for three walls plus doors. If I'm off by 4 hours, that's still only a $160 difference.


Ain't gonna mud and finish drywall in 4 hours.


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

Someone that has no idea what is involved in a job told me I was crazy for my bid. Which was on the low side. Very easily I could make an 1/8 of an inch mistake and I would be eating a few hundred dollars only in materials. I had to lay everything out, set everything, measure a few times. Make absolute sure I was dead on, make all my cuts, put everything bad together, make more marks, tear everything back apart, re cut, re install. This is not my first time doing these things. Get someone else that will do a hundred dollar job for you.


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## halfamp (Nov 25, 2012)

Dorado said:


> I'm glad a few of you give estimates over the phone or at least after a free visit. There are jobs that I would have guessed cost a few hundred dollars but they're much more in _every_ case, and it's good to know that ahead of time. I recently read that building a typical bedroom closet costs about $2000. I would have figured about $100 for drywall and drywall supplies, $50 for framing, $50 for wooden shelves and rails, $200 for doors, $40 an hour for four hours work for one man. That's $560. If I had three times that amount I'd feel more than confident that was enough but it wouldn't be.



This here is exactly why HO's get the attitude from professionals. Here, you are assuming you know what the professional's time is worth. $40/hr will get you a run of the mill craigslist hack. 

I've stopped working for HO's for exactly the sentiments you posted. They go to Menard's and buy all the stuff they think is required to do a job, only to beat me up when it takes longer than they think it should (how they are suddenly experts on my trade?) or they didn't have the right materials, missing parts, etc.

I've been to jobs where it takes me a long time to dig into a wiring issue and solve it. I've also been to jobs where the issue is so apparent I'm in and out in under 10 minutes. The customers get billed the same usually. It took me 12 years to be able to solve a wiring issue in 10 minutes, good on me. Don't give me grief that your bill was $189, it would've been the same if it took me 2 hours.


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## redman88 (Oct 5, 2012)

i feel a ballpark estimate should be free. a detailed estimate with a line by line brake down, and more time spent on it should have a reasonable cost. you say you have X amount of years doing this job you should be able to say $to$$$ based on the what you have said about the project, but if you want a detailed estimate, i will need to come and see, and that will cost, but it will be more detailed. That's just how i feel about this whole issue. And when i start making calls for estimates i hope i can convey this to the people i talk to, and if they understand and agree i think it will point out who is a better contractor.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

halfamp said:


> $40/hr will get you a run of the mill craigslist hack.


In the forum post that I linked to, pros are saying building a closet is a handyman's job and not worth their time. I see now that people are saying $40/hr is in the handyman range. That seems high for a handyman, but I guess that's the price and that's who to go to for a job like this. If it takes 8 hours instead of my initial guess of four, that's $720 for the total cost to a home owner to get a closet built (by my estimation). A "real" contractor would give a $2000 estimate based on the posts in the other forum. That's a crazy difference for construction of a simple closet and I wouldn't want to be surprised with a bill that's more than double what I estimated (even with twice the hours I originally figured!). If the "real" contractor (I don't really know the difference between a handyman and whatever those people on the other forum consider themselves...I think both are contractors) is charging that much, he's either charging more than $100/hr or he's charging $100/hr and multiplying the cost of supplies by something. I read on this forum that some contractors double the cost of materials. I can see charging for gas but doubling the price of materials is deceptive. If you look at the net income per hour of someone who does that, it would be higher than most home owners would consider fair, and probably more than $100/hr in some cases. I'd like to have an idea of the costs ahead of time so I'd know to head for the handymen.


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## redman88 (Oct 5, 2012)

when it comes to materials there a calculators out there to help with finding out how much of everything you need. just takes home work. then some leg work or key strokes to put together a list on some place like home depot or lowes. that will give you a ball park on the cost of meterials, then you just need to find the guy that will charge what you feel is fair for his time and effort.


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## packer_rich (Jan 16, 2011)

Dorado said:


> The $2000 cost for a closet came from this post on another forum. The specs look like it's a simple closet. Maybe lower cost than an average bedroom closet. So, if I'm the home owner and specify the relevant things for a simple closet like that, the cost would be almost four times what I would have expected. Even a rough estimate would likely be much higher than what I expected and would be helpful. I might wonder "how can that be" and look for a handyman who charges something closer to $560, or do it myself.


Seems most estimates consider this a 2 day job. The multiple trips are required because of the drying time for the drywall mud and the fact there is virtually no work to be done while the mud drys. Extra trips increase overhead. $40.00/hr. may seem like a good living, but when it takes you 1 hr to put the mud on, then you have to load your tools, go to another job; well no pay for that down time.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> In the forum post that I linked to, pros are saying building a closet is a handyman's job and not worth their time. I see now that people are saying $40/hr is in the handyman range. That seems high for a handyman, but I guess that's the price and that's who to go to for a job like this. If it takes 8 hours instead of my initial guess of four, that's $720 for the total cost to a home owner to get a closet built (by my estimation). A "real" contractor would give a $2000 estimate based on the posts in the other forum. That's a crazy difference for construction of a simple closet and I wouldn't want to be surprised with a bill that's more than double what I estimated (even with twice the hours I originally figured!). If the "real" contractor (I don't really know the difference between a handyman and whatever those people on the other forum consider themselves...I think both are contractors) is charging that much, he's either charging more than $100/hr or he's charging $100/hr and multiplying the cost of supplies by something. I read on this forum that some contractors double the cost of materials. I can see charging for gas but doubling the price of materials is deceptive. If you look at the net income per hour of someone who does that, it would be higher than most home owners would consider fair, and probably more than $100/hr in some cases. I'd like to have an idea of the costs ahead of time so I'd know to head for the handymen.


Hanymen basically work for labor only. Contractors charge mark up for parts and materials. plus charge a labor rate to cover all operating cost and turn a profit on labor.

You do know that Lowes/HD sell their drywall for more then they pay for it. They don't just add the cost of employee labor to it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion-----I also see that many folks are not aware of the current labor rates for legitimate contractors.

$40 an hour ? The workmans comp insurance--liability--vacation pay--health insurance--truck and travel-tools and other overhead makes that number rather out dated----

a carpenter in this area can expect the boss to pay $32 to $36 per hour. add the above costs plus overhead and profit-----plus his portion of the selling costs and you will see that a higher number is needed.


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## oldhouseguy (Sep 7, 2011)

I base a lot of my decisions on contractors/specialists from my initial conversations with them.

Sometimes not even my initial conversation, but my attempts to have a conversation.

For me, It is almost always true that the ease at which I can get a contractor to respond to an email, take a call, come for an estimate, etc... has a direct correlation to the quality of the whole experience.

In the past, If I heard about a guy who charges $30 an hour to do a task, while everyone else charges $60, I might have called or sent an inquiry email. Typically this guy will put me off, not return an email, not be able to come out until next Thursday, etc. It has gotten to the point where I just know someone who doesn't price themselves to the market price will not be a great person to do business with. Even if they are, they won't be in business for long without raising their rates.

I am always shocked at how many guys will have an email address to reach them, and then it becomes clear they never check or return emails. This is a red flag for me, because in 2013 a credible email is certainly the same as a credible phone call.

My only point in posting to his forum is not to criticize trade specialists for what they charge, but just to point out how important it is to watch how they run the rest of their business. It will usually tell you all you need to know.

I worked in automotive retail marketing for over 20 years. Most of the great salespeople I have encountered know that people who come to them are likely to have had a bad experience along the way. The great salespeople understand this and go out of their way with each customer to try and right the wrongs of an entire industry. In doing so they earn the confidence of the customer. Sadly, yet importantly, the salespeople just know they have to do this, it is a huge part of their job.

The same can be said of the great contractors who get called on a job, one thing that makes them great is their desire to educate you in layman's terms as to why you should choose them.

Just my thoughts.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

My computer was acting up so I called an IT pro and asked for a ballpark figure what it would cost to fix my computer. He told me his hourly rate, to which I balked, and then said he'd have to look inside my computer to find out what's wrong before he had any idea how much it will cost to fix it. I told him I'd fix it myself. 

I needed some legal work done so I called a lawyer and asked for a ballpark figure what it would cost. She said she'd need to know more details and that I could set up a consultation with her and she could give me a ballpark figure after that. The consultation fee was $300. I told her I'd take care of it myself.

I wasn't feeling too good so I called my doctor and asked him for a ballpark figure what it would cost to make me feel better. He told me to make an appointment and if needed he would have to run some tests and told me the cost of the office visit and some test costs. I told him I'll just let my body heal itself.

My computer is still acting up. I got a raw deal in court. And I'm feeling worse everyday. But I didn't fall for those hacks who were only trying to make a buck off me!


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

for the closet, it would be very reasonable to pay the guy installing $40 an hour. So find a guy to do that off the books, on the side, cash, or do it for yourself. You have to remember, there are other moving parts to running a business then what you see happening in your home, and they need to be funded. There are bills to pay, taxes to pay, unseen time. If my job were as easy as saying "K, materials cost this much, times $35 per hour I want to make, price is this", life would be much, much easier. That time you see the contractor at your home, getting his hands dirty, is only half the battle of running business.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Dorado said:


> In the forum post that I linked to, pros are saying building a closet is a handyman's job and not worth their time. I see now that people are saying $40/hr is in the handyman range. That seems high for a handyman, but I guess that's the price and that's who to go to for a job like this. If it takes 8 hours instead of my initial guess of four, that's $720 for the total cost to a home owner to get a closet built (by my estimation). A "real" contractor would give a $2000 estimate based on the posts in the other forum. That's a crazy difference for construction of a simple closet and I wouldn't want to be surprised with a bill that's more than double what I estimated (even with twice the hours I originally figured!). If the "real" contractor (I don't really know the difference between a handyman and whatever those people on the other forum consider themselves...I think both are contractors) is charging that much, he's either charging more than $100/hr or he's charging $100/hr and multiplying the cost of supplies by something. I read on this forum that some contractors double the cost of materials. I can see charging for gas but doubling the price of materials is deceptive. If you look at the net income per hour of someone who does that, it would be higher than most home owners would consider fair, and probably more than $100/hr in some cases. I'd like to have an idea of the costs ahead of time so I'd know to head for the handymen.


I read that entire thread (notice it's 10 years old too) and I have no idea where you're coming up with 4-8 hours to do the job?? It seems most, if not all, of the experienced contractors estimated 16-18 hours for a skilled tradesman to complete the job. Do you think the handyman could do a job on par with the skilled tradesman in half the time? There's a reason the skilled guys charge more, their generally far more efficient.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

The 4 hours didn't come from that thread, but I remember at least one person saying it could be done in a day. I just tried to picture how long it would take while looking at my closet. I can't picture more than 8 hours, but I'm not very experienced at framing or mudding. I was thinking something like:

One side of the closet: measure and cut two 2 studs and 2 tracks (10 minutes), hammer plates to floor and ceiling (10 minutes), hammer studs (10 minutes), total: 30 minutes

Opposite side of closet: same as above (30 minutes)

Back of closet: multiply by 3 (1 hr 30 min)

Cut and install two shelves: 30 minutes

Install hardware to ceiling and floor for door: 30 minutes

So far the total is 3-1/2 hours. Trim, hanging doors, and hanging drywall would bring it to between 4 and 4-1/2 hours. Mudding is hard to say because I've never done it, but a total of over 8 hours is hard to believe unless it's man hours that include an assistant who stands around half the time, or travel and setup time for a second trip.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> The 4 hours didn't come from that thread, but I remember at least one person saying it could be done in a day. I just tried to picture how long it would take while looking at my closet. I can't picture more than 8 hours, but I'm not very experienced at framing or mudding. I was thinking something like:
> 
> One side of the closet: measure and cut two 2 studs and 2 tracks (10 minutes), hammer plates to floor and ceiling (10 minutes), hammer studs (10 minutes), total: 30 minutes
> 
> ...


You should build a 3 sided close in your house, and see how long it takes you. Track everything. how long it takes you to drive to Lowes or HD. How long your in one of them. How long it takes you to walk in and out of your house(your not actually gonna cut those 2X4's in your house are ya?).

Do the actual work yourself, and see how long it takes. That way you won't be guessing so much.


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

Nothing burns me up than a homeowner trying to tell me how long something is going to take me. They have this cartoon like understanding of what is involved. It is like that in many trades across the board. Or they think, hey here is 50 dollars it is only going to take you and your 40 foot ladder like ten minutes tops to fix this. AS Mama mentioned an experienced contractor is much more efficient than some handyman. I generally pay around 50 dollars an hour here in depressed Detroit for a legitimate handyman. Key word being legitimate.


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## oldhouseguy (Sep 7, 2011)

The closet mudding takes someone like me a long time. It's basically a tiny room, except it has the same number of edges and corners as a 40x40 room, and you get to work in a tiny confined space making it even harder.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

It would take me a week. All I could do is guess about how long it would take a pro. I'm on my second day of just trying to move my desk.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

mj12 said:


> Nothing burns me up than a homeowner trying to tell me how long something is going to take me. They have this cartoon like understanding of what is involved.


Sometimes the HO expectation is not cartoon-like. Here's an example.

We had a thin crack on our foundation wall along a preformed fault line. I didn't want to deal w it so we called a company that looked reputable online and had local presence. They couldn't quote me on the phone (no surprise) so fine have them out. He gives my wife a quote. $500. (!)

Couple days later he calls to ask if he can do the work. I said no you're charging too much. He pressed for what I would pay... citing it was structural (scare tactics) and just layin on the schmooze. I said ok, $200. He said nobody would do it for that price and -- got annoyed! Presumably cuz I had an idea what he should make. I told him no thank you then.

Moving on. Got the mtls at Menards for $60. Paste, 2-part poly, tubes. Took me all of an hour to fix, split in two 30-min sessions by the paste dry time. All up, if you really stretch, you could say it was two hours of time invested to do this, counting the drive time for the 2nd trip to make up that 2nd hour.

So net? I offered him $200-$60=$140. That's $70/hour. And he said no! (his call). He wanted $500-$60=$440. $220/hour. Was I "wrong" to basically assert that I didn't feel right paying $220 /hour? He did get annoyed at the thought of me suggesting that price. Even tho he asked! I said "no" plainly, first.

Anyways, it took me easily 6 hours of time between the actual work plus reading and researching for hours. But it was of course time well spent. Point is, I did not have a cartoon-like idea of what to pay him. I had a ballpark in mind that this was a couple hours work, no more. A ballpark that turned out to be right on. I made a lucrative offer of $70/hour to him.

I think he simply expected the gruff exterior and scare tactics to push a certain % of ppl to just buy in and say "fine do it" cuz they don't want to deal w it further or be intimidated calling yet another company out. Heck if you get even a 20% hit rate at $220/hr you're raking in the dough.

People SHOULD have a ballpark in mind before getting quotes. People should form an idea of what they expect to pay. Otherwise you can have absolutely ridiculous charges like this and end up just saying ok.

If I'm gonna buy a pair of jeans, I might set a ballpark of $15-$40. If I go to a store and see they're $150 that day, I'm going to pass because that is outside of my almost 3:1 (very wide) range. I would not just go to the store and pay whatever someone says. For anything.

Homeowners should always always always research to get an understanding and form an opinion. First. Then if quotes come back a lot higher, figure out why or find another way.


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## JasperST (Sep 7, 2012)

SquishyBall said:


> Sometimes the HO expectation is not cartoon-like. Here's an example.
> 
> We had a thin crack on our foundation wall along a preformed fault line. I didn't want to deal w it so we called a company that looked reputable online and had local presence. They couldn't quote me on the phone (no surprise) so fine have them out. He gives my wife a quote. $500. (!)


Is that what he was going to do? II don't know what a preformed fault line is but the foundation cracked for a reason and you made it look cosmetically better but the crack is still there. Maybe he was going to dig into it and fill it? You left that part out so it's hard to say if he was unreasonable. It does sound reasonable to need to see it to give a quote since many people tend to understate their end and expect you to hold to the estimate.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

JasperST said:


> I don't know what a preformed fault line is


When our foundation was poured, it had deliberate indentations every 8' or so. (like a sidewalk) This way if a crack is going to form, it will crack straight, and not take a meandering path. This method seems to be liked because it controls cracks but disliked because it almost ensures that it will crack.



JasperST said:


> But the foundation cracked for a reason


Of course. But there was no settling, out of level, or lateral displacement so it is not structural. It is purely a moisture blocking thing.



JasperST said:


> and you made it look cosmetically better but the crack is still there.


It didn't really affect the cosmetics. It was behind a wall, and will once again be behind a wall. So cosmetics were irrelevant. The goal was just preventative maintenance to keep moisture and bugs from using that as a path.



JasperST said:


> Maybe he was going to dig into it and fill it?


He was going to injection fill it with a 2-part poly.



JasperST said:


> It does sound reasonable to need to see it to give a quote since many people tend to understate their end and expect you to hold to the estimate.


Understood. I didn't fault them for this. Perfectly reasonable to want to see it.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

redman88 said:


> i feel a ballpark estimate should be free. a detailed estimate with a line by line brake down, and more time spent on it should have a reasonable cost. you say you have X amount of years doing this job you should be able to say $to$$$ based on the what you have said about the project, but if you want a detailed estimate, i will need to come and see, and that will cost, but it will be more detailed. That's just how i feel about this whole issue. And when i start making calls for estimates i hope i can convey this to the people i talk to, and if they understand and agree i think it will point out who is a better contractor.


I will tell you this I never charge for a estimate. why? because it is just that. break open a wall and find that it has been a all you can eat buffet for termites and stuff then the cost change. I always give a fair price and if I get the work or not it is no big deal to me. I live by the three s's Some will Some won't So what.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

most homeowners will never understand unless they are on the other side of the fence. Likewise, most contractors are not going to understand the pricing of another contractor. I do have my hourly rate that is priced into all my projects, but also there are fixed bills that need to happen, and the $ amount varies drastically from company to company, and even year to year for each of those companies. I always use this formula.

I bank on doing 150 jobs throughout the year. I NEED to hit this goal, minimum, to cover all costs of my overhead. I price out my work comp, utilities, gen lia, medical, auto for the course of the year. I divide by 150 and add that number to my hourly rate. Now, my insurance costs the same to carry whether your job is $200 or $20,000, so that number applies to EVERYBODY, no matter the circumstances. 

Now, maybe that's not fair to the customers after I hit my 150 job benchmark, but guess what, if I do 225 jobs that year, my insurances are going UP. So its simply paying the premium that is going to increase.

Now, take that $200 bucks, minus $60 on material, minus his overhead(which he may have a very different system then myself, but its still there), minus the fuel, and pay the taxes on the income. He makes FAR less then $70 an hour that you are assuming. Now, you are in Chicago. It gets extremely cold, then warms up, everything contracts and expands, and he's back out again doing a patch on the job. Well, now he would certainly be losing money on the job. 

My opinion, he's not a rip-off. He is simply a BUSINESS man, which you need to be to have any success contracting, and protecting his own investment. If I dropped a price on a customer and they offered me less then 50%, I would get annoyed too. As I said before, having your hands dirty is only half a contractors battle, and you need to respect the other half of it as well, or go on craigslist and find the other guy to do the job.


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## HowUthink (Mar 20, 2013)

*gee whiz--it's exciting to have stimulated so much response!*

First of all, to those few of you who described my posting and then not returning for a few days as "pooping on your living room floor" :shutup:, etc., and as very rude behavior, I'm guessing you are self-employed.

I'm not. I work 45 hours a week, and commute for 8, and I have 3 little dogs that have to be walked very late at night...and then I am in school, and then there's the aforementioned "money pit" to clean and prepare for the Good-Guy (I pray) electricians coming next week.

You also sound unnecessarily hostile, Julie and one other. Just a little. Did I not present a balanced view, meant to help both sides comprehend the other's feelings and perspective? I think so. I even ran it by a 3rd party before posting, to make sure.

I can give another example from medical work, to show I understand the "variables" aspect:

A guy needs a bandage on his hip changed. It's removal of old dressing, irrigation, application of fresh medicine, and cover again. Pretty straightforward, right? :no::innocent:

But maybe he is in bed, weighs 600 lbs (oh yes, they certainly do sometimes), can't turn himself or hold himself over where you can get to the wound, and his bed is soggy from sweat or Lord knows what, and he has a "Super Bug" infection in the wound that requires Haz-Mat gear before going in and touching him...and then it's going to hurt, deep as it turns out to be, once uncovered, so you know he needs a pain shot first..

...Of course, that means wasted lost time, waiting for it to take effect....and the more you do for him, the more hours of write-up you do immediately afterward, to legally show it was done. Of course, while you're there, his wife will want you to "take a quick look" at some other problem he (or she!) has, and he needs to use the urinal, so...etc, etc. It's 15 minutes--or 4 hours...quick and simple--or a grueling mess that leaves you needing a shower, or at least a clothing change, yourself, and gritting your teeth over the add-ons, some of which do not even fall under your practice laws.

Not to mention your own neighbors and relatives who are always asking for free advice, and just as often then ignoring it.:wallbash:

Okay, Julie, and others who misunderstood?

I could mention that, no, I'm "just" a nurse, and as such, unlike the doctor, I can't raise my hourly fee to cover the 600-lb surprise. :whistling2:What I see is what I get. I'm guessing you (good-hearted) contractors find that shocking , and will now make sure when you have a professional nurse care for you she or he drops by for a preview first and then bills you accordingly. Yes? :laughing: Or at least think about it at such moments.

As for the handmade car--yup, totally get it...but the car was used as an example, because it IS possible to say, "Well, a bandage isn't back surgery, so if the patient can walk by himself, is clean and dry, and able to expose the wound for me, has no major infection, will let me walk away when I've finished that expected task, and no one else in the house wants free medical advice, I can say it will run you about x to y..understanding that any surprises (named or not named) mean all bets may be off."

So, 160 ft of 4 foot picket fence, low-end aluminum, standard spacing on the pickets, 2 3-foot gates with standard latch, flat soft ground, warm Spring day, city lot, "U-shaped" stretch, no cutting into the 6 or 8 ft manufactured lengths, all permits already paid and posted...underground utilities marked..Perhaps such a thing permits a "ballpark"? 

The understanding homeowners could be told, "If you can answer all these things ACCURATELY, we can tell you if you have a prayer of affording it." Those like me would "get it". (One did that for me today, and all I could think was OMG, that's over $43.00 a foot! Saved us both some time...will be doing it myself, or do without.)

As for rip-offs, I have had a licensed contractor take me for a very expensive ride. He allegedly hired a Master Plumber to do work on my home, at a reduced rate for "volume discount"...and also because he admitted his crew was hit very hard by the housing-development crash, and "really needed" the work. I believed him. I gave him half up front on an amount that seemed scarily huge to me....only to have him take the money and run. The he "Master plumber" dropped by the next day, only to tell me the contractor knew such a job required a backhoe, and a prior agreement from the plumber, who was an independent subcontractor, and had not been asked beforehand. He said it had happened before. But that didn't stop him from working with this guy.

Did I check the BBB? A couple of references? Was it a contract on letterhead paper? Was he licensed? Yes, yes, and yes. Did it clean me out of a few grand I couldn't afford in the first place? Damage my home? Did I hear later (from the "no ballpark" checks I did before, and had to hire anyway later), that I should have known the job would cost a few MORE grand ordinarily, and that a low-ball offer was a red flag? Did that Master Plumber shake his head and say, "4 or 5 grand at least" (the "post-mortem ballpark, I call it now)?

Yes, yes, and yes. and yes. Oh, I've learned plenty. Some contractors might be thinking I got the proper financial spanking for trying to get it at half-price. Actually, no...it was a must-do repair while I was in a very tight spot, and this was a licensed relative of a coworker. 

I've also had a (diabetic) handyman leave halfway through an outdoor job when it started to snow (with my blessing),and got paid over half for the day, but never come back to finish nor contact me again. His wife called for free medical advice a month later, from his bedside, because he'd just then had a heart attack! 

Naturally she promised that when he was well she'd make sure he finished the job, and claimed he had "a little problem these days with his memory" before. LOL. But did he ask for some diabetic advice while he worked? Yup. It's not free expertise--it's just information from someone who knows, right?

I had another tell me his hourly rate for less than a full day's work was higher, because it is hard to find a matching half-day, plus with the commute it's costlier for him. And 4 hours is the minimum. Okay, I can see that. But when he came up with an hourly figure that made the half-day, including a 2-mile to trip to Lowe's, _more expensive than a full day would have been._..well. No, I'm not kidding.

Not to mention Home Health nurses commute from visit to visit all day, and they get gas mileage only.

And then there's the self-employed guy--but who had professional tools and could provide references-- who let me know he would charge 50.00 for every trip to the store, and NO, under no circumstances "do I need a helper" to be a go-fer, but NO, he would not look in ANY detail at the work in advance, so he could come prepared to make far fewer surprise trips to the store.

I could go on and on...most of these guys were small-time self-employed, semi-retired, etc., but with licensed experience...some who could have done quite well but lacked insurance, etc. Most I did not hire, of course, after some learning. That's sad for the honest ones among them, as it could have been a win-win for tradesman and homeowner.

The sides such as DIYorNot seem to underestimate my area's cost for most professional work considerably, even though it asks for my zip code. Or, is it just me, a single woman, who gets a higher price? Surely not. But again, no way to check.

So, now I get 3-4 written estimates from a star performer on Angie's list, at equally premium rates, of course...and no. they NEVER, EVER (so far, I grant you, it could still happen) come in one cent under budget--or at budget. EVER. So far.

One day one will, and I will marry him or her. :thumbup:

I try to be a good customer: I provide accurate details, I get up on 3 hours sleep at their convenience, not mine...I stay out well out of their way, pay up promptly, am flexible as to start and finish dates, allow them to squeeze my smaller job in when they have a break between bigger jobs (without a discount). 

I offer water and soda, restroom and wash-ups, give them a good reference on web sites, don't complain about the noise or mess or additional time and steps to finish...and add a $$ thank you for a reasonably good job, when custom allows. 

Am I being too nice? I have had people say, "Never let them use your bathroom; let them drive to the gas station; no wonder they lack respect" (!) I find that attitude disgusting...but guess which of us has had fewer rip-offs? Who gets yes, ma'am, no ma'am treatment? Not me.

It feels a lot, actually, like seeing a very highly regarded doctor--you do the same at-his-convenience scheduling, and even bend over backwards to keep him or her happy, forgetting sometimes who's the paying customer there, too. Interestingly, it's also how I've been advised to treat an auto-shop owner who specializes in older-car repair.

What do you suppose these things have in common, that is different from the nurse? It's a puzzle, no? :wink:


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## HowUthink (Mar 20, 2013)

*Part 2 of my long-winded reply*

Part 2 of my reply (also quite long-winded)
That said about small-scale single contractors vs big-name A-list ones, there are bad big ones and fine small ones, too, of course. Very much so!
When a top-rated As List contractor came to look at a big job a few years back, and I expressed shock at the cost (making clear I did not think it was improper or totally beyond my means, although I admitted it would be a serious stretch), he mentioned he was in the business of buying houses in distress and flipping them, and that maybe it would be best for me to sell as his mother had. He also told me my desire to preserve the historic charm of my "money pit" was "not worth it" in my price range, so I should not bother. He said this very firmly, as though I had asked.

Maybe he meant well, and didn't realize how it sounded...but, he should have!...I hired another firm for a slightly higher price.

I wonder if he described my reaction as "wanting it for half price" though I never said any such thing? Actually, it was more the way you feel when you hear, "Sorry, ma'am...it's cancer, and you need chemo NOW."

So, again, it's both sides. I'm sure the house-flipper assumed I'd never call again, and was speaking out of pity...maybe meant well vs fishing to see if I would sell...but it was inappropriate, and embarrassing. I don't say anything now, even when they suggest an arm and a leg. I ask why, and then just decide. Sometimes the difference is HUGE among equally respectable companies doing on-site firm estimates and I'd like to know why...but again..essentially sealed bids.

I know the main site's a forum for coffee/beer chat among contractors, and letting off steam on the contractor side...no problem. I have a sense of humor, and there are enough parallels with nursing that I can totally empathize and laugh with them. And yes, medical break-room chats can get kinda salty and cynical, too.

I felt moved to comment only because so many posts over there discussed, "What should I charge?" and the results were enlightening. Many seemed to be practical and fair-minded calculations from experience, but some essentially said, "Whatever the market will bear! The cost is what you want to earn for the job, divided by square feet, hours in a day, whatever" (yuk, yuk).

And that was true even when the questioner admitted he had NO EXPERIENCE doing the work, but had also not TOLD the customer!

I guess that means if I'm having a bad day, and feel I need more per hour, or the boat payment's due, even the guy who can move himself and has no "Super Bug" will be paying more for that dressing change. Even if I've never changed a bandage.

And then when I got redirected here, there was this major disclaimer at the top of the first page saying (to paraphrase) we WILL NOT be asking for ball park estimates here! We KNOW that's a no-no! and we will be ejected...etc.

(Why not, if we are asking only each other, and we know no contractor will answer?) It had that toadying-up or religious sound to it. A lot like you see on "ask the doctor" forums, where liability is part, but not all, of the reason for the warning. Perhaps I misunderstood the mood, I thought, so I posted what I hoped was a balanced commentary.

In my view, you've got a few selfish pigs and idiots on both sides, and (much more common) honest ignorance on both sides...

Ignorance means including the apparent struggle (or lack of it) of some contractors to put themselves in the shoes of the homeowner who 100% DOES wants to do right, and be as fair and courteous toward the contractor as he wants be treated himself. (But also be reasonably cautious, spend wisely, and strike a good deal, as you would in most other professional-service-for-hire or large-purchase situations.)

He may jump the gun in labeling us due to the nutcase or abusive homeowners, just as he gets labeled, because those creeps such as I once hired are out there. Of course.

That's what I meant, and some of the background.

I do wonder, and always will: If someone who also does dirty, scary, dangerous, hard labor requiring physical stamina, extreme self-control, high expertise, and constant vigilance at all hours of the day or night, using their own hands and (sometimes dangerous) tools, at risk of physical injury, infection, sometimes getting shot at, kicked, or punched, while putting up with the everyday-type petty abusive customer behavior (on the grounds that they're sick and supposedly "not themselves") and sometimes much disrespect...someone with at least an undergraduate college degree (costing about $25-80,000, with annual upkeep, too) earns far less than 1/3 of what some contractors do....

Why is that? And yes, I am describing a Registered Nurse with a 3-7 year degree. I have wondered many times whether I should switch careers, so I could pay off my college loans before my body gives out.

You hear, "Well, let's see YOU get into a sewer with a heavy and dangerous power auger!" .

True, and yet: When's the last time you and 1 or 2 other persons, each under 120 lbs., moved a 600-lb naked, combative person by yourselves, off the floor where he tried to get out of bed, alone, for no good reason...out of a 3-foot wide pool of unspeakable (sewer) filth,
so he could be cleaned and moved to safety--even though the need for quick rescue action meant you couldn't put on most of your "Haz-Mat" type protective gear beforehand?

Of course, you have to keep all of his serious medical issues in mind, because moving him the wrong way, or upsetting him could cause harm only an expert would know might happen! His heart might stop, for example, though he can still curse and complain.

I hope these added observations don't sting the contractors and DIYers who were kind in their comments. I do believe even those blowing off steam, or perhaps a but too defensive are probably just that--Good Guys blowing off steam or a bit too defensive.


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## HowUthink (Mar 20, 2013)

asinsulation...actually, that information is helpful. I think you might be mistaken that homeowners will never understand. I am amazed to hear that you make under 70/hour, because I would have thought even with all the overhead it would be far more. I believe you. Furthermore, I am comforted to hear even you guys/ladies don't necessarily understand each other's pricing, because otherwise I would not believe it when told in the midst of an estimate. I also don't feels so dumb for not knowing the "ballpark" in advance. Even when I calculate all the overhead I can imagine, it seems they make way more than 70/hour, so this is enlightening news. As nurses top out at 30-ish and have those big student loans plus some liability insurance, annual fees, etc., it is comforting to hear it's no THAT much more. Thanks for commenting, all of you., even the critical ones. Dialogue is good!


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

As a contractor, who's darn fair with all of his customers, and net's far less per hour than the average RN/LPN, I find these last few posts "interesting" to say the least. SOmeone from the medical field thinks the construction trades make too much, when our anesthesiologist "makes" more in one hour than I do some months........................:whistling2:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HowUthink said:


> I hope these added observations don't sting the contractors and DIYers who were kind in their comments. I do believe even those blowing off steam, or perhaps a but too defensive are probably just that--Good Guys blowing off steam or a bit too defensive.


You mean you wouldn't like going into a dirt floor basement to work on a furnace. that has a leaking ewer pipe beside it that has been leaking for months. I don't have a haz mat suit.

Or humping 60 plus pounds of tools up a 35 foot suicide ladder to get to the RTU while its raining to get the pharmacy's heat working again(working on 480 volt in the rain is fun). Its even more fun when you have to rope a 168 pound compressor up on to that roof.

Of course working on a foundry's burners is ok in the winter. But in the summer when its 135°F average in the foundry, its not pleasant.

Ah the joy of opening up someone's air handler, and seeing all the mold you put your fingers into when you removed the access panel. Glad I don't have medical training to know how risky that is.

I get sick and can't work for 2 weeks. I lose customers. You would lose 2 weeks income. Then return to work.

All fields have their ups and downs.

My neighbor sells fences. Hates doing the ball park over the phone. The customer only wants to hear the lower price they heard over the phone. not the true cost after he sees the job site.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

HowUthink said:


> asinsulation...actually, that information is helpful. I think you might be mistaken that homeowners will never understand. I am amazed to hear that you make under 70/hour, because I would have thought even with all the overhead it would be far more. I believe you. Furthermore, I am comforted to hear even you guys/ladies don't necessarily understand each other's pricing, because otherwise I would not believe it when told in the midst of an estimate. I also don't feels so dumb for not knowing the "ballpark" in advance. Even when I calculate all the overhead I can imagine, it seems they make way more than 70/hour, so this is enlightening news. As nurses top out at 30-ish and have those big student loans plus some liability insurance, annual fees, etc., it is comforting to hear it's no THAT much more. Thanks for commenting, all of you., even the critical ones. Dialogue is good!


Get into dialysis. They make more then 30s.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I took a call today- the man wants a bathroom in the basement of his 1955 home. Care to guess what his first, second & third question was? 
Can you give me a ballpark? What do you think it'll cost? How long will it take?
I got a meeting scheduled for tomorrow :thumbsup: I told him he can save money doing his own slab demo. Plumbers shouldn't have to carry concrete rubble. I don't get paid enough for that.....


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

HowUthink said:


> I do wonder, and always will: If someone who also does dirty, scary, dangerous, hard labor requiring physical stamina, extreme self-control, high expertise, and constant vigilance at all hours of the day or night, using their own hands and (sometimes dangerous) tools, at risk of physical injury, infection, sometimes getting shot at, kicked, or punched, while putting up with the everyday-type petty abusive customer behavior (on the grounds that they're sick and supposedly "not themselves") and sometimes much disrespect...someone with at least an undergraduate college degree (costing about $25-80,000, with annual upkeep, too) earns far less than 1/3 of what some contractors do....



Comparing what an employee makes per hour against what a company charges is ridiculous, apples-to-oranges.

If you want a fair comparison, contrast what an employee within the medical field makes per hour with benefits verse what their counterpart in the construction field makes.

And if you want a comparison of how much contractor's actually make, contrast what they bill per hour vs. what the hospital bills per hour.

Something tells me the hospital might actually charge more per hour for their service.............


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You mentioned that a nurse 'gets' 30 an hour----what do you think the doctor must bill her for to cover her overhead?

Don't forget vacation pay,workmans com, heath insurance, paid training classes, breaks and lunch,--hours billable v. hours on the clock----


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## LVDIY (Mar 28, 2011)

I can't believe how long this thread is. It's pretty simple:

A homeowner is not the professional part, the contractor is. So if a homeowner asks a "stupid" question then that's an opportunity for a contractor to educate the consumer.

Don't get mad at or make fun of a consumer asking for a ballpark estimate. Simply just explain what your process is. Either they get it or they don't. 

If you don't like homeowners who buy their own supplies at home depot, then don't do work for them in the first place.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

That and if you're a contractor then you already know what ranges of prices exist for a given kind of job. Estimating properly is a skill, often lacking in many professions. As is qualifying customers. It critical to learn how to tell if a job is going to be cost-effective enough to pursue, while remaining competitive in the market. 

Yeah, the customers are naive and possibly unreasonable. Experience will teach you whether or not you're capable of maintaining a profitable business working around those givens. This is true in just about any profession, not just residential contracting.


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

I do wonder, and always will: If someone who also does dirty, scary, dangerous, hard labor requiring physical stamina, extreme self-control, high expertise, and constant vigilance at all hours of the day or night, using their own hands and (sometimes dangerous) tools, at risk of physical injury, infection, sometimes getting shot at, kicked, or punched, while putting up with the everyday-type petty abusive customer behavior (on the grounds that they're sick and supposedly "not themselves") and sometimes much disrespect...someone with at least an undergraduate college degree (costing about $25-80,000, with annual upkeep, too) earns far less than 1/3 of what some contractors do....

Why is that? And yes, I am describing a Registered Nurse with a 3-7 year degree. I have wondered many times whether I should switch careers, so I could pay off my college loans before my body gives out.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not know where you live but your pay scale is out of whack.

by the way, assuming contractors make more than you is just that, and assumption.

i also have a BS degree in business. i also will give ball parks over the phone if pressed.

i also give estimates where my price remains he same at he end of the job.

i also know that unforeseen problems occur on old houses. This is because as an owner of a house built in the 1870's, I know that there have been many people working on it, some good and some bad.

your ranting I hope makes you feel better, but assuming that a carpenter will not charge for time spent getting materials is just plain ignorant.


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## oldhouseguy (Sep 7, 2011)

I just find it amazing that someone who works 45 hours a week, and commutes for 8, has 3 little dogs that have to be walked very late at night...and then goes to school, and also cleans their money pit has time to post such a lengthy dissertation.

For me personally, I find that explaining to a contractor why you might need a ballpark over the phone works pretty well. 

I always say something like, "Look I know you can't tell me exactly without seeing this job, but I don't want to waste your time, so if you can give me some sort of idea about what is involved cost-wise... I won't hold you to an exact figure, but it would help me with figuring out whether or not to have you out here to take a look."

I am honest with them, and 9 out of 10 times, they give me some sort of range or idea, and I can usually tell if they are blowing smoke or not.

But, I also do this with a respect for the person I am speaking with. When people go in with a $40 budget in mind to finish a job that clearly calls for $200, I can totally imagine that contractors are not interested in helping you figure out you aren't even in the ballpark.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

> I price out my work comp, utilities, gen lia, medical, auto for the course of the year. I divide by 150 and add that number to my hourly rate.


Could you imagine if every profession did this?

Customer: "Why does my $20 entree cost $120 on the bill"?

Owner: "Because this is a privately owned restaurant. I have to add on to cover my workers comp, social security, utilities, liability, medical, auto, gas, time at Costco, shipping, deoderant for my employees (your server did smell nice, right?) and aspirin to deal with you. See? It says right there, all orders come with a $100 fee to cover these things."

That'd be silly. Your costs of being employable are your costs. They don't concern the customer. What matters to the customer is one thing... THE PRICE TO GET THE JOB DONE SATISFACTORILY. That is all that matters. Because that is so important, this thread was started to gripe about why contractors seemingly often, despite doing this for a living and likely having fixed 1000 cracks in their life, can so rarely quote a price.

In fact some contractors have said they don't even understand each others' pricing. How on Earth could a customer understand it then when it is so arbitrary and varied?

That I think is the OP's general gripe. That a basic job (like filling a simple crack) should be able to be described on the phone as "Barring any complications, it'll be around $500 to injection fill a crack". Yet you don't find that. 



> Now, take that $200 bucks, minus $60 on material, minus his overhead, minus the fuel, and pay the taxes on the income.


It's sounding like you're saying a customer should _pay for the fuel_ for someone to do their job. Really? I drive to work. Nobody pays for my fuel. That serves to reduce my post-tax discretionary funds. And the customer should pay your income tax? :whistling2:

As you said, the reason contractors generally won't quote, is because this is BUSINESS. It is the eternal dichotomy between customer and provider... the customer wants to pay the minimum while the provider wants to earn the maximum. By not quoting out, one can get onsite and put the customer in a situation where they are more likely to say yes to a higher price. It is just BUSINESS and we're all in our respective businesses to make money. Giving a quote on the phone, it is simply too easy for the customer to decline and call another till they get a price they like, which leads to a net of lower prices paid. Nothing wrong w that. It is Capitalism at work. Thus I don't fault my concrete guy for not bidding on the phone.

This mechanic will not likely change, and it will forever be a sore spot for homeowners who simply want to be able to shop prices like w anything else.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know that some contractors (and I include handymen in that category) could charge $40 and hour and less and make a good, honest living and get the job done well, and even build the closet I was talking about for $560 - $700 rather than the $2000 quoted on the other forum. It's also helpful to know that contractors actually admit (again on the other forum) that a handyman is sometimes the right person for a job such as building a closet. Maybe some contractors can't stay in business if they charge under $2000 but I'm not going to pay more than twice the price just to give someone with business model that's optimized for something else my little closet job, unless for some reason I'm pretty darn worried about the quality of work I'd get from the $40/hr guy compared to the guy will the alleged extra overhead.

I remember a few years ago building contractors topped the list in consumer complaints. I think dating services were contenders. And I remember an investigation that found the majority of air conditioner repair companies rip people off. Consumers have good reason to be wary of these companies and their charges.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

Dorado said:


> A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know that some contractors (and I include handymen in that category) could charge $40 and hour and less and make a good, honest living and get the job done well, and even build the closet I was talking about for $560 - $700 rather than the $2000 quoted on the other forum.


I doubt it. He would need to work with his tools 8hrs. a day, bid work at night- including meeting with prospective clients, balance his books on the weekend, change his oil on monday holidays, talk to his accountant and attorney on the phone while swinging his hammer, get materials on his lunch break, because he can't afford any support staff.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

If it's a side job where he could go weeks without a job he could do it. And $40/hr is way above minimum wage so I think he could do it anyway, maybe making a somewhat less than "nice" living.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Dorado said:


> A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know that some contractors (and I include handymen in that category) could charge $40 and hour and less and make a good, honest living and get the job done well, and even build the closet I was talking about for $560 - $700 rather than the $2000 quoted on the other forum.


Maybe you should lead by example and ask your boss for a pay reduction?



Dorado said:


> Maybe some contractors can't stay in business if they charge under $2000 but I'm not going to pay more than twice the price just to give someone with business model that's optimized for something else my little closet job, unless for some reason I'm pretty darn worried about the quality of work I'd get from the $40/hr guy compared to the guy will the alleged extra overhead.


You asked for a price, got one and are not obligated to have anyone do the work... Supply and demand is a free market system not a FREE market.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Dorado said:


> A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know...


Amen brother, you're spot-on. Trouble is people don't know and don't have enough of this kind of work done to build anything resembling a useful amount of knowledge about it. And it's damned expensive educating themselves. Possibly just as expensive as it is for a contractor to afford 'educating' them only to have them take that knowledge and attempt it DIY.

It's an eternal problem, not just limited to any one profession or type of customer.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

SquishyBall said:


> Could you imagine if every profession did this?
> 
> Customer: "Why does my $20 entree cost $120 on the bill"?
> 
> ...


Ever have a job with a company vehicle? Or just got a gas card as a sales rep or anything to that effect? It's an expense you need to budget for. It is billed into the price of any contractor that wants to survive more then 5 years in business. You may work at an office. Entirely different then driving to 4 appointments in a day in various locations. You wouldn't be able to constantly afford that bill I bet.

And the food service industry is a different animal in the same environment. The food is marked up and includes cost of overhead, as well as wages. Are you truly ignorant enough to think that somebody is just pulling money out of their personal bank account to get the supplies shipped to applebees on a regular basis? LMAO

It is just broken down differently. A successful restaurant will serve more people in a night then I do in a year, so do some math. They break down their costs, maybe apply 50-70 cents to each item on the menu, and it adds up to cover these additional costs to OPERATE a business.

Take my advice my friend, and never become self employed. Because if you don't price things out at least along the lines of what I said, bankruptcy would be in your near future.


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

Dorado said:


> If it's a side job where he could go weeks without a job he could do it. And $40/hr is way above minimum wage so I think he could do it anyway, maybe making a somewhat less than "nice" living.


40$/ hr is standard for me to charge to cover my expenses and make a decent living.

The $40 includes all of my overhead and physically swinging a hammer 1600 hours a year. the other 600 hours I work each year is to market and sell myself.

so the 
440/hour is actually less than 40 as I have 25% of my time that isn't billable at the 40/hour figure.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

framer52 said:


> 40$/ hr is standard for me to charge to cover my expenses and make a decent living.
> 
> The $40 includes all of my overhead and physically swinging a hammer 1600 hours a year. the other 600 hours I work each year is to market and sell myself.
> 
> ...


Does this also include material and what not?

Figure $64000 a year, minus insurances, taxes, and operations, you are probably between 50-55 grand annually. If you were coming out of pocket for materials as well, I'd imagine your living on a tight budget!


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

asinsulation said:


> Does this also include material and what not?
> 
> Figure $64000 a year, minus insurances, taxes, and operations, you are probably between 50-55 grand annually. If you were coming out of pocket for materials as well, I'd imagine your living on a tight budget!


materials are always extra. I also charge the same for my helper.

I know what I make and it is more than what you quoted. i found the best way to make more is to leverage it by hiring help.


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## Metro (Mar 28, 2013)

Since the prices of materials also fluctuate, another good way to start getting a ballpark figure is through your local home improvement store. Tell them what kind of project you have and they'll tell you how much material you need, how much it will all cost and how long it should take for 1 person. From that, add on 40 bucks an hour for labor and you have a ballpark figure.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

framer52 said:


> materials are always extra. I also charge the same for my helper.
> 
> I know what I make and it is more than what you quoted. i found the best way to make more is to leverage it by hiring help.


I just got that number with 40x1600. Now, having the labor help is a whole added expense. But don't try to explain to a homeowner like squish that you need to charge more for your laborers hour then what you pay him!:laughing:


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

asinsulation said:


> But don't try to explain to a homeowner like squish that you need to charge more for your laborers hour then what you pay him!:laughing:


Correct, and that's part of how you qualify a sale. It's sometimes hard to do and sometimes you waste time/money making the determination. But when you do, you avoid wasting any more time/money/hassle trying to put up with the wrong customer for you. 

I've found it useful to be 'too busy' or pretend to be unable to help with 'how complicated their particular problem is' as a means to avoid taking on a client like that. This way they only think of you once, during that qualifying period and don't go on to whinge about you online. Better to let them pass on to the next poor sap instead.


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

asinsulation said:


> I just got that number with 40x1600. Now, having the labor help is a whole added expense. But don't try to explain to a homeowner like squish that you need to charge more for your laborers hour then what you pay him!:laughing:



I never work by the hour anyway:thumbsup:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> If it's a side job where he could go weeks without a job he could do it. And $40/hr is way above minimum wage so I think he could do it anyway, maybe making a somewhat less than "nice" living.


If its a side job. then he has another source of income. And doesn't need to build your closet to live. Its done for extra money. not as a way to make a living.


What do you do for a living. Do you own or operate/manage a company. Do you control the price of what your product/service is sold/charged for?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> And I remember an investigation that found the majority of air conditioner repair companies rip people off. Consumers have good reason to be wary of these companies and their charges.


You were probably watch one of the TV stings, that call up contractors that people have complained about. So that they can show those companies, and get better ratings. So they can charge their sponcors more money to advertise on their show.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Dorado said:


> A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know that some contractors (and I include handymen in that category) could charge $40 and hour and less and make a good, honest living and get the job done well, and even build the closet I was talking about for $560 - $700 rather than the $2000 quoted on the other forum. It's also helpful to know that contractors actually admit (again on the other forum) that a handyman is sometimes the right person for a job such as building a closet. Maybe some contractors can't stay in business if they charge under $2000 but I'm not going to pay more than twice the price just to give someone with business model that's optimized for something else my little closet job, unless for some reason I'm pretty darn worried about the quality of work I'd get from the $40/hr guy compared to the guy will the alleged extra overhead.
> 
> I remember a few years ago building contractors topped the list in consumer complaints. I think dating services were contenders. And I remember an investigation that found the majority of air conditioner repair companies rip people off. Consumers have good reason to be wary of these companies and their charges.


I still don't get where you come up with your number. The general consensus at the other forum was 16-18 hours for the project. Probably about $4-500 in materials. You say it would take yourself a week to complete the project. Yet, you think a handyman is going to build the closet in a fraction of the time, about 4 hours or so???

And for the record, I could charge $40/hr, and survive. Mostly because I have employees that I would make a few bucks off of as well. But, after 14 years of risk exposure, 7 day weeks, unappreciated HO's, countless hours bidding, fixxing warranty issues years after installation, etc... there's no way I'd work for hamburger flipper's wages just because I "can".........


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

It's funny- A new member can come in here, make 1 post, walk her dogs, come back and post 2 more times and the thread explodes to 73 er.. 74 posts.
You'd think we were talking religion or politics :laughing:


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

beenthere said:


> If its a side job. then he has another source of income. And doesn't need to build your closet to live. Its done for extra money. not as a way to make a living.


I understand what a side job is. There are people who work side jobs who just post a notice and wait for calls so it takes no significant time or money and they don't fail due to too little work and can save people money. But a couple of hours per week doing bookkeeping and returning calls is probably all it takes to be full time especially once there's word of mouth about your work. At $40/hr that's only an $80/week cost of doing business.




> Do you own or operate/manage a company. Do you control the price of what your product/service is sold/charged for?


I used to do freelance work and I'll get back to it eventually but I never set prices.



beenthere said:


> You were probably watch one of the TV stings, that call up contractors that people have complained about. So that they can show those companies, and get better ratings. So they can charge their sponcors more money to advertise on their show.


I don't remember who investigated. I just remember the majority of repair places doing things like filling up an already full freon reservoir causing freon to spill onto the floor.


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## LVDIY (Mar 28, 2011)

Why would anyone care what a contractor makes per hour?

I never hired a contractor on an hourly basis. 

We agree on the scope of the project and the price. That's it. Everything else is irrelevant to me. I don't need to know about his overhead, material cost or how many mouths he have to feed. I assume a contractor will have all that factored in in the final price he gives me.

If he makes good money, then good for him. As long as I pay a fair price for the work, then I'm happy.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

jomama45 said:


> I still don't get where you come up with your number. The general consensus at the other forum was 16-18 hours for the project.


I broke it down - you must have missed that post. I'd like to see them do the same, or anyone here. People are saying things like "it takes time to walk around." Fine, include walking time into your calculation of the time it takes to frame a 30" x 8' wall and all the other steps and lets see how you can make it add up to 16 hours.



> You say it would take yourself a week to complete the project. Yet, you think a handyman is going to build the closet in a fraction of the time, about 4 hours or so???


If he's experienced in drywall and uses the fast setting mud and breaks for lunch while it dries without charging me for his lunch hour. Maybe 5, 6, or 7 hours even, but not 16-18.



> And for the record, I could charge $40/hr, and survive.


Of course you could. People here are talking like you have to be an incompetent tax evader to do that.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Dorado said:


> I broke it down - you must have missed that post. I'd like to see them do the same, or anyone here. People are saying things like "it takes time to walk around." Fine, include walking time into your calculation of the time it takes to frame a 30" x 8' wall and all the other steps and lets see how you can make it add up to 16 hours.
> 
> 
> Your "breakdown" was merely several guesses, it wasn't realistic.
> ...


Maybe not a tax evader, but certainly not intelligent either. If you have the oppurtunity to consistently make $60.00 an hour, why would you settle for $40? When was the last time you negotiated your salary down with your employer? It's obvious, you never have, because you want to make as much as possible, no different than most contractors............


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

jomama45 said:


> If you have the oppurtunity to consistently make $60.00 an hour, why would you settle for $40?


You wouldn't. But if someone better is doing it for $60, you may have to, and I heard $40 _is_ what handymen are charging, so I don't know why this is even an issue.

I don't think drywall takes 4-5 coats.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> I understand what a side job is. There are people who work side jobs who just post a notice and wait for calls so it takes no significant time or money and they don't fail due to too little work and can save people money.
> 
> And they have no insurance. And since it isn't their full time job/way to make money, they cn get a way with charging labor rates only.
> 
> ...


Freon reservoir? There is no such thing. 

I have seen those shows. they already know that the companies they are going to call, have had complaints filed against them. So when they say the majority. They're setting you up to believe a false report.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Freon reservoir? There is no such thing.


OK, I looked it up for you. Condenser.



> I have seen those shows. they already know that the companies they are going to call, have had complaints filed against them. So when they say the majority. They're setting you up to believe a false report.


I don't know how you can assume that. I doubt that's true. To say a certain percentage of AC repair companies (it was in NY City) rip people off when they only investigated those with complaints against them is itself fraudulent.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

LVDIY said:


> Why would anyone care what a contractor makes per hour?
> 
> I never hired a contractor on an hourly basis.
> 
> ...


And that's the way it should be...Here's my proposal, take it or leave it. It's pretty simple really and is the way it's always been done.

When I show up for the first meeting with a new potential customer, believe me, I'm sizing them up as much or more then they are me. Beyond the money thing I'm trying to figure out if they will be a pleasure to work for a just be a PITA. If I sense the latter then I'll either say no thanks or just bid myself out of the job, depending.....

I'd much rather be at home working on my own stuff than deal with a high maintenance customer that's micro analyzing my every move.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

LVDIY said:


> Why would anyone care what a contractor makes per hour?
> 
> I never hired a contractor on an hourly basis.
> 
> ...


Great post!

I need my house sided.
What options do I have, how much does each cost, and how long will it take, do you have insurance and references.

That should be what I would be concerned with.

If I think the price and quality are fair and what I'm looking for, I could care less that you are making $50 an hour or $150 and hour.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

beenthere said:


> So when they say the majority. They're setting you up to believe a false report.


FWIW, I found a similar report. In a hidden-camera investigation, 6 out of 6 tried to charge for unnecessary work. Senior Vice Chair of the Air Conditioning Contractors of America helped with the investigation.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> OK, I looked it up for you. Condenser.
> 
> An over charged unit won't spill freon(thats just a trade name) out on the floor. A contractor could intentionally vent it out.
> 
> ...


A. Just like on the internet, not every thing you see on TV is true.

B. Because I have seen those shows. And they don't pic companies randomly. One of those shows out west. Later had an article that said they had given the lady calling the companies was given a list to call. Even though the show showed her looking in the phone book.

Those stings have been done across the country, pretty much all done the same way.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> FWIW, I found a similar report. In a hidden-camera investigation, 6 out of 6 tried to charge for unnecessary work. Senior Vice Chair of the Air Conditioning Contractors of America helped with the investigation.


Yep, and when he found out those companies weren't picked randomly as he was told they would be. He left the station know it wasn't an accurate sampling.

The odds of 6 dishonest companies out of 6 companies called. Is about as probable as guessing the wrong color card 52 times out of 52 tries with a deck of regular playing cards.

It was a show to get ratings. And that is all it really was.

Oh, and by the way. Top left corner of the electrical compartment of that Rheem condenser, there is a small black rectangular box. Which looks very much like a time delay relay. And is in the position where a time delay relay would be on that unit. And Rossen said it doesn't have one in it. Hmm, strange. Perhaps Rossen doesn't know what is in that unit to be telling people what isn't in it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

On another forum. One of the members was called on a truly random sting/check. He found the problem right a way. Fixed it, and informed the lady of what was wrong and presented his bill. He was paid and informed that it was a sting operation. He was congratulated on his honesty. And when the show aired. He wasn't shown. They did say at the end of the show, that 3 contractors fixed the problem only, and didn't try to add on extra charges. Took them about 10 seconds to say that. Gee, wonder why honesty wasn't worth air time. Guess because it doesn't increase the ratings so they can charge their sponsors more money.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Dorado said:


> But a couple of hours per week doing bookkeeping and returning calls is probably all it takes to be full time especially once there's word of mouth about your work. At $40/hr that's only an $80/week cost of doing business.


You have got to be kidding, you for sure haven't done construction full time or you had someone running interference for you, thinking like this. Try 6AM-10PM most times.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

BigJim said:


> You have got to be kidding, you for sure haven't done construction full time or you had someone running interference for you, thinking like this. Try 6AM-10PM most times.


Some will never understand and that's OK. Got to love that Internet. :laughing:

I know I'll be working Sun. (Easter) for half the day anyway. Kinda cleaning up from last week and getting ready (re-tooling) for a new gig on Mon. 

Not really sure who to bill on that day...Well actually, It's my family that pays the price.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Old sayings become old sayings for a reason. Walk a mile in another's shoes or Don't judge

Which is precisely what the op meant all along. Consider the variables, behave properly when conducting business and respect each others professionalism.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

beenthere said:


> > But a couple of hours per week doing bookkeeping and returning calls is probably all it takes to be full time especially once there's word of mouth about your work. At $40/hr that's only an $80/week cost of doing business.
> 
> 
> ROFL, you have no idea how to run a business by that statement.


People were saying a two day job isn't big enough. I can't picture a guy working for himself having offers for week-long jobs rolling in every hour.



> > I used to do freelance work and I'll get back to it eventually but I never set prices.
> 
> 
> So you didn't make enough money to keep being a freelance. I'm surprised.


I don't seek work from any old company that's willing to pay me when I freelance. I get paid the going rate for what I'm selling, and unfortunately that has become zero because my interest turned to essays in journals that don't pay for them. Everything on my short list of what to do now requires a computer that I'm still setting up.




> They did say at the end of the show, that 3 contractors fixed the problem only, and didn't try to add on extra charges. Took them about 10 seconds to say that. Gee, wonder why honesty wasn't worth air time. Guess because it doesn't increase the ratings so they can charge their sponsors more money.


I think that's OK, but the report I linked to should have been clear about how the companies were chosen.


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## asinsulation (Apr 11, 2011)

show me how to do my bookkeeping and return my calls in 2 hours for an entire week, every week, and i will PRAISE you. I will pay you the extra 15 hours you are saving me ever week for a year!!!!!!!

Do you know the first thing about accounting? Creating accurate P&L statements, projections, budgeting??? Obviously not if you think this takes 2 hours a week. Maybe if I only did 2 jobs that week, didn't need to get gas or buy supplies.

Just read back over this topic and it gives you a perfect example of what contractors deal with. I can pretty much predict who would be an absolute pleasure to work for and I would produce grade A work, and who would be complaining about my pricing not realizing I purposely priced myself out as to not deal with the headaches.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> People were saying a two day job isn't big enough. I can't picture a guy working for himself having offers for week-long jobs rolling in every hour.
> 
> Of course not. It takes advertising. Street pounding. Making new contacts. Not the couple hours a week you said.
> 
> ...


Its clear they were not random companies.

So you think its ok to only show the dishonest companies. Which of course is not reporting factual news. But an invention of how bad something may be.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

beenthere said:


> On another forum. One of the members was called on a truly random sting/check. He found the problem right a way. Fixed it, and informed the lady of what was wrong and presented his bill. He was paid and informed that it was a sting operation. He was congratulated on his honesty. And when the show aired. He wasn't shown. They did say at the end of the show, that 3 contractors fixed the problem only, and didn't try to add on extra charges. Took them about 10 seconds to say that. Gee, wonder why honesty wasn't worth air time. Guess because it doesn't increase the ratings so they can charge their sponsors more money.


Great, so the TV shows don't always cast things in a completely accurate light. This comes as no surprise.

But here's the thing, homeowners out there aren't dealing with TV shows, they're dealing with contractors and a great many of them aren't confident about the work being done for them. 

When a TV show focuses on hyping the bad stuff they're certainly chasing the ratings, but they're responding to market concerns. All too often it's only the bad news dug up by the news programs that does anything to educate the consumer.

What is the industry being criticized doing to inform the homeowners about the situation? Quite often, nothing. Meanwhile irritated "contractors" dig the hole deeper attacking the customers, further widening the hostility. To what end? That does more to make the *service providers look bad* than anything else.

Some customers are never going to be happy. Learn to recognize whether you can make a profit working with that kind of customer, or whether you're happier avoiding them as early in the process as possible.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

wkearney99 said:


> Great, so the TV shows don't always cast things in a completely accurate light. This comes as no surprise.
> 
> Many people believe anything they see on news shows like that.
> 
> ...


I have customers that are never happy. But they are satisfied that the work they paid for was done right, and needed.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

So what if people believe what they see on TV? It's your job to decide how to perform your business profitably. If that's in the face of an ill-informed consumer base then perhaps your costs will have to include educating the consumers about why working with you is the best course of action for them. Otherwise factor that mis-education into your equation on avoiding them. Because they're not going to suddenly get smarter unless someone takes the time to educate them.

The TV people wouldn't be shining a bad light if there wasn't something bad to shine it upon.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

As in all trades there are good,intelligent--honest,ones and incompetent and some times crooked ones.

One of the hardest tasks for a general contractor to do is set up a team of honest hard working subs---

This is where a home owner has a disadvantage----I can ask other contractors for a referral---
and try the new guy out on a small job----

I have now got a darn nice little group of trades all tested and true----but the cost of weeding out the bad ones? Big bucks----

But we are all aware of how to protect ourselves----Lien Waivers---signed change orders--and time limits----along with other measures the homeowner needs to learn.

That's why this site exists------so we can help a person avoid the tough lessons taught in the school of hard knocks-----------


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

wkearney99 said:


> So what if people believe what they see on TV? It's your job to decide how to perform your business profitably. If that's in the face of an ill-informed consumer base then perhaps your costs will have to include educating the consumers about why working with you is the best course of action for them. Otherwise factor that mis-education into your equation on avoiding them. Because they're not going to suddenly get smarter unless someone takes the time to educate them.
> 
> The TV people wouldn't be shining a bad light if there wasn't something bad to shine it upon.


I have a great way. $125.00 to come out and find the problem. It eliminates tire kickers.


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## paintdrying (Jul 13, 2012)

125 dollars. Does that include fixing the problem? I simply can not afford to pull in your driveway for less than $200 dollars. Many times these simple fixes end up taking half a day If someone was a long time customer then I may not even charge them at all. For me it is not always the present service call, it is what I could be doing instead of working at your house.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

mj12 said:


> 125 dollars. Does that include fixing the problem? I simply can not afford to pull in your driveway for less than $200 dollars. Many times these simple fixes end up taking half a day If someone was a long time customer then I may not even charge them at all. For me it is not always the present service call, it is what I could be doing instead of working at your house.


Nope, that just gets them a diagnostic. Repair is extra, and their option. I give them the price up front. They say yes or no.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

Part of the cost of doing business is the expense of finding and qualifying it. 

Having a fee for examining the situation is not uncommon, it's often a fine idea. It can certainly help set the tone for how the relationship with the customer is going to proceed. A lot of the time it's rolled back into the cost of the project if it proceeds. Otherwise it's an out-of-pocket expense for the homeowner to have educated themselves. Might seem like a lot to some, or not enough to others. 

I had one situation like that during our new house build. An AV contractor was incredibly helpful in discussing the whole range of solutions and their possible implementations. But his estimate for the job was, honestly, ludicrously overpriced. I'm well aware of *all *the costs involved and his numbers were just crazy-high, on both materials and labor. The fee I paid to have him come out was worth it to me. Whether it was worth it to him is his business. He didn't waste his time for nothing, and I paid to pick his brain. I was fully prepared to have him do the work had he come in with a better estimate. Now, should I go back and forth with him to argue over the numbers? That just sets the situation up to fail.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

If I was thinking about going out on my own to make a living and came here and read this thread first, I'd steer clear of working for homeowners. Many contractors do because of the increased costs involved in doing that type of work. 

As to the value of a tradesman, I can think of many times I thought I was grossly underpaid because my life was on the line. When there's 7200 volts just inches from your head and you know one little mistake and you're instant barbecue, that hourly rate you're getting seems pretty dismal. 

I know plenty of electricians who have been seriously injured and two who were killed doing their job. I've never heard of a doctor, a lawyer, an IT pro, a business person, or any of the other "white collar" workers I've known in my life, talk about the dangerous conditions they put up with at work but I've heard plenty of them say construction workers are overpaid. :huh:


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> *If I was thinking about going out on my own to make a living and came here and read this thread first, I'd steer clear of working for homeowners.* Many contractors do because of the increased costs involved in doing that type of work.
> 
> As to the value of a tradesman, I can think of many times I thought I was grossly underpaid because my life was on the line. When there's 7200 volts just inches from your head and you know one little mistake and you're instant barbecue, that hourly rate you're getting seems pretty dismal.
> 
> I know plenty of electricians who have been seriously injured and two who were killed doing their job. I've never heard of a doctor, a lawyer, an IT pro, a business person, or any of the other "white collar" workers I've known in my life, talk about the dangerous conditions they put up with at work but I've heard plenty of them say construction workers are overpaid. :huh:


I kind feel that way about GC's. I was looking into plumbing a couple homes here for a builder. I wanted the drawings to work up a quote. As he handed them to me he said " I'll pay you $xxx to plumb this floor plan and $xxx to plumb this one"  No thanks


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

So much for respecting others professions.

Everybody always thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Until they give a try. Take me the lowly highly overpaid ..underworked Real Estate Rep. I willing to bet most people think we make a boatload for doing next to nothing.

Try putting up with someone for 6 mnths , while you waste gas, pay baby sitters, draw up contracts, late night negotiations only to be told..no I think we will stay put after all. 6 mnths work down the tube....zero pay, tons of expenses. 

And if the deal does come together, the commission is split 4 ways with a huge amount of fee's on top of that. all the while being told you are robbing them.

I'm not complaining..(maybe a little) but the point is, this is what I chose to do. If I wanted to be an electrician I would go to community college for 2 years and start the process.

If I wanted to be a Doctor then I'd head off to university for 10 years (way to expensive) to learn how to save lives.

Each of us is in our chosen field for a reason..there are no mistakes..but for gawds sake stop complaining ...if you don't like what you do , then change it

You are after all, living in the so called land of opportunity


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

beenthere said:


> So you think its ok to only show the dishonest companies. Which of course is not reporting factual news. But an invention of how bad something may be.


You said the report mentioned how many honest companies there were. There's no invention there. Claims of fraud need evidence and they showed it like they should. There was no misinformation there, but the one I linked to was a little misleading.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> If I was thinking about going out on my own to make a living and came here and read this thread first, I'd steer clear of working for homeowners. Many contractors do because of the increased costs involved in doing that type of work.
> 
> As to the value of a tradesman, I can think of many times I thought I was grossly underpaid because my life was on the line. When there's 7200 volts just inches from your head and you know one little mistake and you're instant barbecue, that hourly rate you're getting seems pretty dismal.
> 
> I know plenty of electricians who have been seriously injured and two who were killed doing their job. I've never heard of a doctor, a lawyer, an IT pro, a business person, or any of the other "white collar" workers I've known in my life, talk about the dangerous conditions they put up with at work but I've heard plenty of them say construction workers are overpaid. :huh:


Which says a lot about career choices. Chose wisely or have the gumption to change when a path you're on isn't the right one. 

Those other professions are not without their risks, granted probably not the same as imminent risks from high voltage, but they've still got a lot to lose if they make mistakes. You can complain about close calls or other risks because they're just your mistakes, not much else is on the line for anyone else. That other pro would be an idiot to likewise rant about their mistakes because that sort of talk would very likely come back to bite them should a lawsuit or other liability claim be made. Perhaps you're lucky being able to vent about it, eh?

It doesn't help much to claim someone else's position is any better or worse, they're still there and you're still where you are. But sometimes it sure feels good to ***** about it though!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> You said the report mentioned how many honest companies there were. There's no invention there. Claims of fraud need evidence and they showed it like they should. There was no misinformation there, but the one I linked to was a little misleading.


They showed it in a manor to simply raise their ratings. Had they shown the honest contractors. Then they would have had to taken more air time, and would have made less money. And heaven forbid. gave the honest contractors free advertising.


The link you posted was completely misleading, and self serving. Disguises as a service to people. It was a for profit broadcast. Gotta get/keep those ratings up.


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## Dorado (Feb 7, 2013)

It shows that government isn't doing a good enough job regulating fraud when you see so many AC repair business in one area ripping people off. If the media could discover this, so could regulatory agencies. The difference between 6 out of 6 doing it (which was probably a more misleading than average report) and just 30% doing it isn't that big a deal to me. Either way, if my AC breaks, I'll be more likely to get a new one knowing of such widespread fraud, and more likely to check reviews and avoid small businesses that post ads on lamp posts and slip fliers under my door. Even in the report that I think was misleading about the scale of the fraud they mentioned some companies that they used to check out the ACs before the sting. That's useful information too. I'd probably choose one of those companies if they were in the area.

About the cost of advertising and bookkeeping, some people operate on word of mouth alone. I know less about bookkeeping, but how much bookkeeping would the owner of a small sole proprietorship have to do per 24 hours worth of projects?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado;1148551
About the cost of advertising and bookkeeping said:


> Varying with the project. You can have 20 invoices from vendors/suppliers for just 3 invoices to the customer. 24 hours worth of billable time for me doing only diagnostic and minor repair service is 2 to 3 hours of paper work/book keeping. Sometimes more, sometimes less. All depends on the type of work I was doing.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Dorado said:


> It shows that government isn't doing a good enough job regulating fraud when you see so many AC repair business in one area ripping people off. If the media could discover this, so could regulatory agencies. The difference between 6 out of 6 doing it (which was probably a more misleading than average report) and just 30% doing it isn't that big a deal to me. Either way, if my AC breaks, I'll be more likely to get a new one knowing of such widespread fraud, and more likely to check reviews and avoid small businesses that post ads on lamp posts and slip fliers under my door. Even in the report that I think was misleading about the scale of the fraud they mentioned some companies that they used to check out the ACs before the sting. That's useful information too. I'd probably choose one of those companies if they were in the area.
> 
> About the cost of advertising and bookkeeping, some people operate on word of mouth alone. I know less about bookkeeping, but how much bookkeeping would the owner of a small sole proprietorship have to do per 24 hours worth of projects?


First. They didn't actually show a single company that was dishonest. Or atleast they didn't prove any of the companies that ent someone out were dishonest. They showed 6 people that were taking advantage of a female customer.

Had it been man there, and that man looked like he was in some type of mechanical or construction trade. They would have had a different diagnostic given by those guys.

They blew that show by not reporting what they actually saw. They only wanted ratings. And a show on how woman can\are taken advantage of by some. Would have taken longer to prep for and to do. So no, they failed, as bad as you think the gov did.

Funny thing is. if the gov policed the HVAC industry more. We would have to charge more yet.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

wkearney99 said:


> Which says a lot about career choices. Chose wisely or have the gumption to change when a path you're on isn't the right one.
> 
> Those other professions are not without their risks, granted probably not the same as imminent risks from high voltage, but they've still got a lot to lose if they make mistakes. You can complain about close calls or other risks because they're just your mistakes, not much else is on the line for anyone else. That other pro would be an idiot to likewise rant about their mistakes because that sort of talk would very likely come back to bite them should a lawsuit or other liability claim be made. Perhaps you're lucky being able to vent about it, eh?
> 
> It doesn't help much to claim someone else's position is any better or worse, they're still there and you're still where you are. But sometimes it sure feels good to ***** about it though!


The point is when making complaints about what someone makes, remember, "Everyone is overpaid but me. I'm underpaid." :whistling2: So rather than griping about how much someone charges for their work, just move on and find someone else to do it or pay the man and keep quiet.


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## operagost (Jan 8, 2010)

beenthere said:


> On another forum. One of the members was called on a truly random sting/check. He found the problem right a way. Fixed it, and informed the lady of what was wrong and presented his bill. He was paid and informed that it was a sting operation. He was congratulated on his honesty. And when the show aired. He wasn't shown. They did say at the end of the show, that 3 contractors fixed the problem only, and didn't try to add on extra charges. Took them about 10 seconds to say that. Gee, wonder why honesty wasn't worth air time. Guess because it doesn't increase the ratings so they can charge their sponsors more money.


I would think it's probably because people doing what they're supposed to is not news. At least, I hope it still isn't.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

asinsulation said:


> Ever have a job with a company vehicle?


No, and I'd say "most people" do not fall into such a category. The fact that some positions may get perks is irrelevant to this discussion.



asinsulation said:


> You may work at an office. Entirely different then driving to 4 appointments in a day in various locations. You wouldn't be able to constantly afford that bill I bet.


And you'd lose that bet.  IT contractor for 20 yrs here that's made an honest living from customers that won't let me go because I charge a fair price and provide a valueable resource. I survived the "dot com bust" by having a solid understanding of how to treat customers. I have never gouged a customer, never tried to.

Look, you're being deliberately silly in your exaggerations. Point was, a contractor offered to do a job for $500, for which the known cost of supplies was $60, and for which the actual job takes no more than two hours.

This is not rocket science. AS the customer in this case, one is fully entitled to decide what he or she is willing to pay, to come up w a ballpark based on forums, advice, research and some elbow grease -- then decide if that is reasonable or not. That is what this thread was about... that a homeowner SHOULD come up w what he thinks he should pay, whether it is the closet example that permeates this thread or a wall crack or a furnace repair. 

I don't CARE what he makes. I have nothing against him (well, besides lying to me and using scare tactics). I do the math purely to make a sensible decision. How else should one decide if $500 should just be paid or not? Magic 8-ball? No -- you think it out.

Now my lawyer who went to law school? Yes I'll pay him $220 per hour. It has absolutely nothing to do w covering his costs, his gas, his "employability" like taxes, liability, school loans, etc.



asinsulation said:


> Take my advice my friend, and never become self employed. Because if you don't price things out at least along the lines of what I said, bankruptcy would be in your near future.


Assumptions are great aren't they. :thumbsup:


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

That is where you are wrong.

If a lawyer in private practice doesn't meet their costs then they will go out of business in short order.

By the way, 220 and hour is a cheap lawyer today....


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

JulieMor said:


> As to the value of a tradesman, I can think of many times I thought I was grossly underpaid because my life was on the line. When there's 7200 volts just inches from your head and you know one little mistake and you're instant barbecue, that hourly rate you're getting seems pretty dismal.


Heh. In general, everyone likes to believe that what they do is more important and more dangerous than the average job. When in reality, we all drive to work. And we are 1000x more likely to die driving to work and getting hit by a drunk driver than we are to die by getting electricuted. I'll guess an electrician is less likely to die while doing electrical work (which he's trained to do) than when he's getting to work, and an electrician doing electrical work is actually a pretty safe thing because again of the training and focus on the work at hand. Given this, I think we're all _about equally likely_ to be hurt (or worse) on the job by the things that are most likely to actually be harmful or deathly (trivial things like driving or using a ladder).

Personally, I would say the health risks a doctor or nurse faces far exceed the health risks that an electrician faces. No research behind this tho...


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

As long as we are talking about risk takers lets applaud the law enforcement and firefighters who put their lives at risk every damn day to save your fat anonymous asses.


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## toluene_hawk (Jan 25, 2013)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_109579.html

And that.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

Dorado said:


> A huge problem with how the world works in general is bad communication/lack of knowledge. People should know that some contractors could charge $40 and hour and less and make a good, honest living and get the job done well, and even build the closet I was talking about for $560 - $700 rather than the $2000 quoted on the other forum.


You know, having just built some rooms... and in reading this thread... I've been trying to think about what it would cost if a friend came to me and said "hey can you build me a closet"... And I think even to a friend, it would cost me more than $560.

Thing is... every time I go to the store, I don't walk out of there for less than $100 even if I go in thinking I'm just getting one thing or group of things. Last trip - to drywall one small room, over $100. ($6x14+$9x3). That's just for the drywall. Add mud, tape, corner bead, etc. 2 hours of labor with my wife helping to get to the store and get the drywall into the house and down the stairs.

Lumber
Electrical... wire... switch... fixture... how far is the nearest circuit?
Nails, Screws
Insulation (?)
Drywall, tape, mud, blades, trays, mixer, drill
Primer, paint, rollers, brushes, plastic pour toppers, all the little stuff.
Baseboard Trim
Casing
Jamb (bifold or slider closet doors require a custom jamb)
Doors (cheap slab bifolds cuz a mirror slider can run $300 itself)
Door hardware
Flooring (?) unmentioned what's needed here
Finish the trim? Stain? Paint?
Wooden shelves, closet rod
Disposing of the bulk trash

The little things get ya too. Like gloves. Knee pads. Drill bits. Screwdrivers. Saw blades. Electrical tape. General consumables that you dont think about when you decide to do a project. Yet you inevitably break a drill bit or saw blade.

There's a lot of time involved in that list, including finicky detail work. 

Maybe 3 days if I could spend them pretty much full time. Could I do this in 2 days? i.e. a weekend, from tear-out to finished product? No, I'm not that good. I think I could get to "rough finished" in a weekend... leaving the floor, trim, door install, priming and painting for a 2nd weekend. And that's if I had my "friend" (or whoever) helping me to run to the store to pick stuff up so I could keep working.

Anyways... I think $2000 is high, but $560 is low. I'd probly go somewhere in between -- maybe $1500. That's $750 labor and $750 mtls. (The specific door would affect this a lot)

I dunno if that's fair as it's about $250/day of labor (7 hours) -- works out to about $35/hr... but it's a start...

But I don't think it's possible to build a rough-to-finished closet for $560 even if the labor was donated.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> The point is when making complaints about what someone makes, remember, "Everyone is overpaid but me. I'm underpaid." :whistling2: So rather than griping about how much someone charges for their work, just move on and find someone else to do it or pay the man and keep quiet.


I kind of saw this first hand today- A GC (house flipper) called me to plumb a bath addition. The drains are in a crawl space- cast iron drains and galv water.
We discussed the scope of the work, etc. He tells me HE is supplying all material including pipe, fixtures and permit. So I'm into it for labor only. I told him 750.
"Well my budget is only 500", he says. "Hmm- Can you get to 700?" 
I said "OK" Then he says he wants it done by Friday PM so he can meet the draw deadline Why didn't he start plumbing last week instead of waiting till the last minute? I guess I need to reschedule some other projects....
I left him a quote and said "call me tonight" because he wanted to get another bid- which I have no problem with BTW.
So, he calls a couple hrs later and gives me the go ahead. But wait-- he calls again and tells me he just got a price for $325! Less then 1/2 my number- go figure. :whistling2: Now I'm out 60 miles round trip fuel, windshield time, lost wages from another project that I could have been on, etc..... Oh well, cost of doing business I guess


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Welcome to my world E


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

creeper said:


> Welcome to my world E


I've seen it before...But all parties involved in my little story are "professionals" :whistling2:


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

A wiseguy huh


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

creeper said:


> A wiseguy huh


That wasn't directed at you! Simply saying the GC's allowance was too low, the competitions bid was way too low and my number was just right :thumbup:


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

o









.....


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

TheEplumber said:


> I've seen it before...But all parties involved in my little story are "professionals" :whistling2:



He might have done you a favor. 

You know how it goes when they are supplying at parts/materials. Suddenly its, oh, I forgot to get that while I was out, i'll have it tomorrow. Then you have more windshield time.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

beenthere said:


> He might have done you a favor.
> 
> You know how it goes when they are supplying at parts/materials. Suddenly its, oh, I forgot to get that while I was out, i'll have it tomorrow. Then you have more windshield time.


I thought of that- and that his scheduling was a little out of whack.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Unless the guy was going to be on site as a 'go for' the idea of a homeowner supplying plumbing parts is kind of a joke----

"Gee,I didn't know what a street 45 was so I got you one of these................."


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

SquishyBall said:


> Heh. In general, everyone likes to believe that what they do is more important and more dangerous than the average job. When in reality, we all drive to work. And we are 1000x more likely to die driving to work and getting hit by a drunk driver than we are to die by getting electricuted. I'll guess an electrician is less likely to die while doing electrical work (which he's trained to do) than when he's getting to work, and an electrician doing electrical work is actually a pretty safe thing because again of the training and focus on the work at hand. Given this, I think we're all _about equally likely_ to be hurt (or worse) on the job by the things that are most likely to actually be harmful or deathly (trivial things like driving or using a ladder).


Well, I drove to work for over 40 years and have logged over 1,000,000 miles on the road in my lifetime and never once sweated as much behind the wheel as I did when I was working live 480v or had that 7200v overhead line only inches from my head. Guess you had to be there.



SquishyBall said:


> Personally, I would say the health risks a doctor or nurse faces far exceed the health risks that an electrician faces.


And how did you arrive at THAT conclusion?



SquishyBall said:


> No research behind this tho...


Oh... Okay... Now I understand.


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

JulieMor said:


> And how did you arrive at THAT conclusion?


Rough guess? At least with electrocution you'd likely die straight-away. Not catch something debilitating and end up lingering with it until it kills you. Either way there's risks to be considered. Everyone thinks theirs are worse than anyone else's. Doesn't make them right though, either way.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

I would have to say that working as a healthcare pro brings several different risk challenges...all the time...

Besides working with the potentially mentally unstable patient who's life they are trying to save, the exposure to diseases on a daily basis trumps pretty much everything but the emergency first responders.

Remember Sars?? Drs and nurses can't just not show up when the plague hits, just like cops and firefighters.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

*


wkearney99 said:



Rough guess? At least with electrocution you'd likely die straight-away

Click to expand...

*


wkearney99 said:


> .
> 
> Don't be so sure about that.
> 
> ...


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

......


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

jbfan said:


> *
> 
> 
> wkearney99 said:
> ...


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## wkearney99 (Apr 8, 2009)

jbfan said:


> Don't be so sure about that.


I did say 'likely' not absolutely. No need to peddle gore, that's just juvenile.


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## JulieMor (Apr 25, 2012)

jbfan said:


> Contains graphic scenes and not for the faint of heart.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMb5zhtR8hw


No thanks. When I was a 1st year apprentice, we were shown several gruesome pictures of charred bodies that were meant to wake us up to what can happen if you're not constantly aware of your surroundings. That was in 1974 and the images are still burned into my brain. And that's why working live 480v and above made me nervous.


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## SquishyBall (Mar 19, 2013)

JulieMor said:


> No thanks. When I was a 1st year apprentice, we were shown several gruesome pictures of charred bodies that were meant to wake us up to what can happen if you're not constantly aware of your surroundings. That was in 1974 and the images are still burned into my brain. And that's why working live 480v and above made me nervous.


It's good to be nervous! That means you acknowledge the danger and prepare accordingly to operate safely. The issue with simple but dangerous every day tasks is that ppl are not nervous about them. Like driving or climbing a ladder. All it takes is one fall off a ladder or thinking about something other than the road while driving to ruin your life, and you don't have to be working on 480v to do that. It happens all the time.

I'll bet many everyday ppl would reach a little further than they should on a household ladder... but you would not reach a little further than you know is absolutely safe and keeps you fully in control of your fate while working on 480v.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

we can all dig up videos of things gone horribly wrong on our jobs. It wouldn't be hard to do.

K ..my turn..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l1Rouq8rZQ&playnext=1&list=PLBC63355351910FBF&feature=results_video


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

creeper said:


> we can all dig up videos of things gone horribly wrong on our jobs. It wouldn't be hard to do.
> 
> K ..my turn..
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l1Rouq8rZQ&playnext=1&list=PLBC63355351910FBF&feature=results_video


Maybe carrying a pistol might give ya a little peace of mind.:whistling2: Sorry, I couldn't help myself there.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

No Jim..I doubt it. That little old lady didn't stand a chance against a psycho who came up behind her and strangled her. Even if he came staight on..nope..she was a goner.

The only way a pistol would have saved her if he had of announced to her ahead of time his intention, then she could open her purse, take aim and ...


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

creeper said:


> No Jim..I doubt it. That little old lady didn't stand a chance against a psycho who came up behind her and strangled her. Even if he came staight on..nope..she was a goner.
> 
> The only way a pistol would have saved her if he had of announced to her ahead of time his intention, then she could open her purse, take aim and ...


I apologize, I didn't check out the video because youtube slows my PC down so bad, situations like that are not to joke about. 

If I were in your shoes I would never show a house after a certain hour, there has been way too many women harmed or killed in that situation.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

No harm done my gentle American friend..

You do give good advice, but you need not fear for my safety. I am a 6ft tall, 8th degree marshall artist.. 250 lbs..:huh:

No one messes with me:wink:


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