# Staggering shingles



## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Ok. Here's my question. I roofed for the first time last week-end and I noticed something very peculiar that I can;t figure out. You lay the starter strip. Then you start your first course of shingles by cutting 6" from the end of the first shingle so it does not line up with the starter strip underneath it. Fine, that makes perfect sense. But why is there a need to continually take 6" from each following course when you get the same result if you cut 6" from the first course, then use a full shingle to start your second course, then alternate each succeding course with a with a shingle that has 6" trimmed from it, then followed by a course starting with a full shingle, etc., etc.? The stair step pattern is still preserved, the joints are still staggered from one course to the next, and the waste at the rake is less. I actually drew it up and it just doesn't make much sense to me, but like I said.....this is my first roof so I just want to know the reasoning behind the standard method of laying shingles. thanks :thumbup:


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

In a racking method every other course has two shingles joining together directly above one another all the way up the roof from eave to ridge.

In a step off "stair step" method that should only happen every four too six courses depending on how uniform you are with your steps.

By having fewer shingles joining together in the exact same spot "arguably" will increase wind resistance.


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## waterman1971 (Apr 19, 2009)

It would take longer to do it that way. Seems like you would have to keep moving sideways instead of going up the rack.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

I live north of Dallas, Texas so as far as wind, unless we get a tornado or something, I won;t worry too much about (besides, won't my homeoners insurance cover that??...lol). If it take me a bit longer I won't mind. Because the time I save cutting shingles in 6" increments will make up for the time I spend finishing a course to the edge and coming back. As long as I am still getting the same water barrier/protection then I think I would like to try doing it by cutting 6" off the left or right end (depending on which direction I am going) off a bundle of shingles and laying down a course that has altered shingles followed by a course of full shingles and alternating until I get to the ridge. for me it makes more sense, since I don't have to worry about cutting a shingle wrong and throwing my stagger pattern off. I would actually be out there right now if this weather system would hurry up and move on out of here...lol


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## waterman1971 (Apr 19, 2009)

I would install the shingles as per mfg recommendation. Seems like a 5" reveal is somewhere on the labeling.My concern would be that the ins. co would not cover a loss due to improper installation.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

Why not install it the best possible way? Do you want to be back up there when a storm blows of some of the roof, but not enough file a claim? When perhaps, if installed correctly, there would have been no damage at all? Listen to the pros.


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## iamrfixit (Jan 30, 2011)

Look on the bundle of shingles, you will see directions how the shingle should be cut and where and how often it should be nailed. If you do your own thing instead of lay the shingles according to the manufacturer specs you have basically released the manufacturer from any warranty coverage in the event you need it, and you sometimes do need it.

It is not too complicated, for three tab shingles the offset is in half tab increments. There is a small cut at the top of each shingle marking the cut line for the half tabs, and you split the shingle at the tab marker for the full tab cuts. The piece you cut off can be used on the other end, after trimming to length to finish the course rather than using a full shingle. 

Your method leaves joints lined up on every other course instead of every sixth course, it may work but looks unprofessional and is not correct.
It might be more work to do it right, but not as much as doing it twice.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

iamrfixit said:


> Look on the bundle of shingles, you will see directions how the shingle should be cut and where and how often it should be nailed. If you do your own thing instead of lay the shingles according to the manufacturer specs you have basically released the manufacturer from any warranty coverage in the event you need it, and you sometimes do need it.
> 
> It is not too complicated, for three tab shingles the offset is in half tab increments. There is a small cut at the top of each shingle marking the cut line for the half tabs, and you split the shingle at the tab marker for the full tab cuts. The piece you cut off can be used on the other end, after trimming to length to finish the course rather than using a full shingle.
> 
> ...


Well, like i said, this is my first time and I did follow the manufacturer installation recomendation. You did answer my question to some degree. So my method will leave joints lined up every other course. However, I do not agree that it would look unprofessional as you state. Unless someone were to go up and lift the tabs you could not tell the difference. I have a 880 sq. ft. workhop and before I started my roofing project I taped off a 200 sq.ft. area in my shop and laid out the shingles as per the manufacturer instructions. I then taped off another 200 sq. ft. section and laid out the shingles the way I explained earlier and there was no difference in the stagger pattern. I just wanted to know why it was done the way the manufacturer describes, because it seemed to me to be very wasteful and you answered my question...so...thank you :thumbsup:, but I still feel that it shouldn't matter which way the shingles are laid as long as they have a 5" reveal (which is basically the top of the tab notch) and nailed above the tab notches and at the ends because the sealant underneath will melt over the joints ans seal it. Well, at least now I know that it is only for warranty purposes. thanks :yes:


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> Well, like i said, this is my first time and I did follow the manufacturer installation recomendation. You did answer my question to some degree. So my method will leave joints lined up every other course. However, I do not agree that it would look unprofessional as you state. Unless someone were to go up and lift the tabs you could not tell the difference. I have a 880 sq. ft. workhop and before I started my roofing project I taped off a 200 sq.ft. area in my shop and laid out the shingles as per the manufacturer instructions. I then taped off another 200 sq. ft. section and laid out the shingles the way I explained earlier and there was no difference in the stagger pattern. I just wanted to know why it was done the way the manufacturer describes, because it seemed to me to be very wasteful and you answered my question...so...thank you :thumbsup:, but I still feel that it shouldn't matter which way the shingles are laid as long as they have a 5" reveal (which is basically the top of the tab notch) and nailed above the tab notches and at the ends because the sealant underneath will melt over the joints ans seal it. Well, at least now I know that it is only for warranty purposes. thanks :yes:


The amount of waste "time & material" depends on experience.

Once you have stepped off a few thousand shingle roofs you'll be as quick stepping them as you are racking them and you'll learn how to minimize waste by using the cut off pieces from one rake/hip as fillers on the next, etc.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> Well, like i said, this is my first time and I did follow the manufacturer installation recomendation. You did answer my question to some degree. So my method will leave joints lined up every other course. However, I do not agree that it would look unprofessional as you state. Unless someone were to go up and lift the tabs you could not tell the difference. I have a 880 sq. ft. workhop and before I started my roofing project I taped off a 200 sq.ft. area in my shop and laid out the shingles as per the manufacturer instructions. I then taped off another 200 sq. ft. section and laid out the shingles the way I explained earlier and there was no difference in the stagger pattern. I just wanted to know why it was done the way the manufacturer describes, because it seemed to me to be very wasteful and you answered my question...so...thank you :thumbsup:, but I still feel that it shouldn't matter which way the shingles are laid as long as they have a 5" reveal (which is basically the top of the tab notch) and nailed above the tab notches and at the ends because the sealant underneath will melt over the joints ans seal it. Well, at least now I know that it is only for warranty purposes. thanks :yes:



I can usually spot roofs shingled with your method from a galloping horse. You often get a "zipper" effect that becomes more noticeable as the shingles age.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Zipper effect? 
Never heard of that one before.....can you descibe it or do you have an image that you could show?

You said that you have seen roofs shingled in the way that I described? Darn, I thought I was inventing a new method of laying out shingles....lol...j/k !!!!


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## waterman1971 (Apr 19, 2009)

They used to do it the way you describe years ago down in my part of Texas. When you look at the roof you can see the edges of the shingles going up the roof. For what its worth, those fancy octagon shingles are supposed to be installed using your preferred method.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Well, actually I thought about that....hehehe.....Let's say that I my roof width is 66 feet. It would take 22 or more full shingles to complete one course. I would open...let's say six bundles and take out one shingle sheet from each bundle, then after the sixth shingle I would go back to the first bundle and start again until I have enough shingles to complete the course. I know time wise this would not be feasable, but it would insure a random color pattern because you are mixing bundles and creating a more interesting color variation which would in turn eliminate the visual "zipper effect" that you talked about....right now, I am asking myself, "why the hell am I trying to tell these guys how to lay roof shingles when they have done it thousands of times using the tried and true method??" ...Well, I guess I just like to think about how things are done and I like to know why they are done the way they are and not just blindly go into a project doing it the way it's always been done because there might be a better way to do it for my situation. Anyhoo....time to go wake up the neighbors with the sound of a coil nailer....hahahahah:laughing:


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## waterman1971 (Apr 19, 2009)

The "zipper" effect is not caused by color, it becomes apparent as the shingles themselves age and begin to deteriorate. 

The edges of the shingles will begin to show, kinda like a poorly applied linoleum floor where the plywood edge is visible.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Interesting.....I will have to think on that for a bit because I can't offhand see how the edges would show if they are covered by the shingle above it....but then agian....who the hell am I to correct someone who probably has spent more time on a roof than I've been alive...lol...So....today was great....shingled my right wing and it looks good...the sheathing closest to the eve had to be replaced. My house is old.....it had 1 x 8 boards for sheathing, but at least it was easy to replace that one section. Put my eve drip edge, then felt, then rake drip edge and started shingling (pyramid method...hehe  ) and step-flashing until it got to the last 10: or so from the ridge....then I had to custom cut step-flashing and shingles to fit aroud the nooks and crannies of the roof. Long story short....it took me almost as long to do the last 10 inches of roof as it did to do all the rest !!!!! Somehow, I just know noone else would have taken the time to do the little things cause I was like dammmm....this sucks....I was tempted on more than one occassion to just throw a shingle over the ridge, and trim it to look like there was flashing underneath....but pride took the better of me and I ended up staying up there for close to two and a half hours trimming flashing and triming shingles to fit around all the corners nice and snug.

One another note.....I think my house is haunted !!!! We bought the house from the daughter of the folks who were the original owners. We have a side porch/patio outside the master bedroom and I have a rocking chair outside that I sit in sometimes when I drink a beer and relax or drink coffee in the morning....anyhoo....last night, I woke up to the sound of the chair creaking back and forth like someone was rocking in it. Funny thing is....there are windchimes but they were not chimming so I know it wasn't the wind.....I think the old dude that lived here before is like watching me and seeing what I'm doing to his house...I think he is OK with the quality of the work....lol....BTW.....what or who is USS.....the markings on the house wrap ????? from the picture I took after I took off the aluminum siding.


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## mem (Dec 15, 2010)

Sounds like a labor of love (love/hate?). Keep up the good work and how about some during and after pics?

And that logo belongs to United States Steel http://www.ussteel.com/corp/index.asp


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

wow that's good to know....i guess that is were the siding came from???? I am still having trouble locating aluminum siding...anyhoo, here's the before after...I still need to put the siding back on, and trim the rake end, but overall I like the way it turned out....I wish the sun would come out and warm those shingles up so the would lay down properly.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> wow that's good to know....i guess that is were the siding came from????* I am still having trouble locating aluminum siding..*.anyhoo, here's the before after...I still need to put the siding back on, and trim the rake end, but overall I like the way it turned out....I wish the sun would come out and warm those shingles up so the would lay down properly.


Have you done a magnet test on the siding? Since it had USS underlayment, it's likely steel siding.

The roof looks good.

edit: I can see a little bit of a zipper where you used small pieces against the wall. No big deal. An untrained eye will never catch it, but that's a reason not to rack shingles.


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## waterman1971 (Apr 19, 2009)

seeyou said:


> Have you done a magnet test on the siding? Since it had USS underlayment, it's likely steel siding.
> 
> The roof looks good.
> 
> edit: I can see a little bit of a zipper where you used small pieces against the wall. No big deal. An untrained eye will never catch it, but that's a reason not to rack shingles.


That ain't no steel siding, no rust. I just tore all the old aluminum off my place. it was identical to yours. I got $739.00 pretty good start toward new siding.

He said he applied them as per mfg.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah, it's definitely aluminum....did the magnet test. Funny, my wife and I were joking about that last night. She said if things get bad we can always start selling the aluminum siding to pay the electric bill for a few months, then maybe move on to the copper pipes...:laughing:


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## A Squared (Dec 19, 2005)

cherry_560sel said:


> because it seemed to me to be very wasteful........



It's only wasteful if you throw away the cutoff from the first shingle of each row. if you use the cutoff to finish the rows on the other edge, you have no more waste than your zipper style.


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## packer_rich (Jan 16, 2011)

I've seen houses in my area shingled using both methods. One thing to remember is that over time, especially with low quality shingles, the paper and fiberglass base material of the shingle will start to shrink. This will eventually cause the shingles to curl. This is aggrivated if the roof is not well vented. When this happens the butt joints of the stacked shingle method really stand out.


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## 12penny (Nov 21, 2008)

....just a couple questions/observations.

The soffit is vented...any reason you didnt vent the ridge?

Why does the first course look all cattywampus in relation to the fascia?

Where your shingle hangs over the gable end, looks like 3 or 4 inches. Arent you worried that will begin to droop in the hot weather or is it supported somehow?


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

12penny said:


> ....just a couple questions/observations.
> 
> The soffit is vented...any reason you didnt vent the ridge?
> 
> ...


I installed the vents before I laid the new shingles down....Apparently, the house was built with a vent ridge, but never had any soffit vents...weird right !!!! So I installed some soffit vents and also put up attic rafter vents so insulation would not cover the vent area. I am doing this roof in stages (left wing front, right wing front, and main gable front, then the entire back side because the back side is one continous roof line) so I am just putting ridge caps back on knowing that I will install the cobra ridge vents when I do the entire rear section of the roof. As far as the firt course looking uneven, that is because I leaned the ladder on it and crushed the new drip edge underneath. Don't know how to fix that, other than installing another drip edge..lol:whistling2:....I have already trimmed the rake end down so it only extends about 1/4" past the gable end.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Just wondering.....since there are gable vents on both ends and two turbines already installed, wouldn't adding the ridge vent be overkill? ?I know there is ratio of venting per square footage of attic space, but i have also read that mixing venting systems is not wise. Given that there are gable vents and turbines, I think that adding soffit vents would be enough without installing the ridge vents. Maybe that is why the ridge vents were covered up with just ridge caps????:wink:


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> Just wondering.....since there are gable vents on both ends and two turbines already installed, wouldn't adding the ridge vent be overkill? ?I know there is ratio of venting per square footage of attic space, but i have also read that mixing venting systems is not wise. Given that there are gable vents and turbines, I think that adding soffit vents would be enough without installing the ridge vents. Maybe that is why the ridge vents were covered up with just ridge caps????:wink:


You are correct. Carry on.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Welp, here is the pictures of the main gable roof teardown. I found some badly rotted sheathing and soffits under the old shingles. So, i took the circular saw to the sheathing and ripped off the soffits to the left of the fireplace and replaced with new wood. This is getting scary :whistling2: since I have never done anything like this before, but hey...there's doers and theres talkers right.....lol.....:jester:


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi!
USS was short for United States Steel.
Seeing that on the foil-paper, and looking at the siding -
probable means the siding is "Alside".
(I know WAY too much about siding  )

Regards!
rossfingal


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

I was just looking at last 3 pictures you posted.
You might want to consider adding a "cricket"/saddle behind the chimney.
Or, at least, some type of metal pan (copper, aluminum, galvanized).
Remember to use "Ice and Water Shield" along the edge of the roof and
around the chimney.
Also, if you have to seal/caulk anything - don't use any type of tar.
Use something like "Solar Seal", "Quad", "PL Roof and Siding Sealant", etc.
Don't use Silicone caulk.
Looks like a very, "Fun" job - sorry I can't be there! 

RF


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

rossfingal said:


> I was just looking at last 3 pictures you posted.
> You might want to consider adding a "cricket"/saddle behind the chimney.
> Or, at least, some type of metal pan (copper, aluminum, galvanized).
> Remember to use "Ice and Water Shield" along the edge of the roof and
> ...



"FUN"............This is the hardest, most frustrating thing I have EVER done ! I snap chalk lines, and still get off track......lol...THE MOST PHYSICALLY draining type of work I have ever done. Would not want to do this for a living (unless I could do 2 houses a MONTH with a helper, even then it wouldn't be worth the stress). So, can you help me with this siding issue????? Can't seem to find anyone that has a match for me. I will try to google the brand you mentioned before. Anyhoo, yes, chimney had been properly sealed at the point where it meets the roof. No problems there. So far the main gabble has taken me about 43.5 hours of work (including removing and replacing rotted out soffits and rotted sheathing). I think I have another 4-6 hours befoer I am done. So many unexpected issues ....jeezz...Three things I have definitely learned...

1) Get help laying down the felt. Windy days SUCK  !!! I had to re-do felt twice !!!!!

2) Snap vertical chalk lines AS YOU GO.

3) tooo tired...can;t think about the third one...:wink:


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Here's a "Link" to Alside locations in Texas:
http://www.alside.com/locations.aspx#Texas
When you go to reinstall the siding - use 2 inch Aluminum nails -
not galvanized roofing nails!
As far as the "Felt" goes - staple it down with a "Hammer Tacker"/"Slap-Gun" - then nail it down with "Plastic-Cap" nails.
Not knowing what siding was available, in the Denton, Texas area when your
house was sided - it was probably .019 inch, backed (fiber-board/foam) -
I think you can still get .024 inch, backed siding.
If all that you can get is .024 inch (might be .027 inch) and you have a 
difficult time getting the new siding to clip-up to the old siding - try rubbing
the bottom-clip of the new siding with wax (parafin block/candle).
Wear gloves - aluminum siding is sharp!!
Do not nail the new siding "dead-tight/too "snug" - a little "float" is required.
Remember: even if you can find the identical siding that's on your house -
it WILL NOT MATCH! (weathering/UV exposure/chalking, etc.).
However; aluminum siding can be painted and it holds paint very well -
with the proper preparation.
If you're going to use Ice and Water Shield - install it before you put the
felt on.

Sure does look like you're having a whole lot of FUN!!  
(some people have all the luck!!)

Later!
RF


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

Alside is steel siding...i have aluminum siding..(magnet will not stick)...I guess you are right..I am having fun doing this, in spite of all the work and frustration. I get a sense of satifaction in some way knowing that I did it right and that I did it myself ...lol


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Yes, Alside does make steel siding.
However, they used to make aluminum siding - I know.
I sided some houses with Alside aluminum siding in Carol Stream, Ill. -
years ago. 
I was working for "Alside" - directly: as a sub-contractor.
I remember very clearly, because I suffered a severely, sprained ankle
while I was working for them - you tend to recall life's "pleasant"
experiences, like that.
Do a search for "Rollex", "Alcan", Napco", "Alsco-Anaconda", "Alcoa",
and "Aluminum Siding".
What you're looking for would be referred to as "Straight 8, Smooth" -
or "8 inch exposure, Smooth" aluminum siding.
The reason I assumed, it was "Alside": was the foil-paper we used
while we were working for them, was identical to the foil-paper that
you showed in your picture.
What we installed was definitely "Aluminum" - I've installed steel.
They could have been using some other manufacturer's siding,
and had it re-packaged in boxes that said "Alside" on them.
I didn't ask if they made the siding - the only thing I wanted to know
was - "when do I get payed?!" 

Later!
RF


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

but my problem is that they will not sell to me directly....lol...i have to go to a contrator just to get the stuff.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> but my problem is that they will not sell to me directly....lol...i have to go to a contrator just to get the stuff.


If you're having trouble purchasing matching siding, any decent sheet metal fabricator should be able to make you some. I get called on several times a year to duplicate siding that's no longer made or massive quantities have to be purchased to acquire a few pieces.


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

really !!!!

can they match the faux wood grain too?????? that would be awesome. I will call around and see what comes up...great idea  thanks !!!!


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

cherry_560sel said:


> really !!!!
> 
> can they match the faux wood grain too?????? that would be awesome. I will call around and see what comes up...great idea  thanks !!!!


Matching the wood grain might be a problem. We have lots of aluminum siding around here, but I don't think I've ever seen any with wood grain. 

I looked before I posted and apparently wood grain coil stock is available:
http://www.iwanthardwaredeals.com/woodgrain-acrylic-aluminum-trim-coil-6615.html?___store=default

Not sure if it would match yours, though.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

@cherry 560sel
Sorry! I assumed the siding you had was smooth (My bad!).
Most siding manufacturers produced wood grain (aluminum, vinyl, steel).
You'll probably have a hard time finding anything that will match - exactly.
Most wood grain coil stock, probably wouldn't match.
Who knows - you might get lucky! 
We've gotten wood grain, coil stock from Home Depot - that's what's on 
my building (fascia, window and door trim).

@seeyou
Good "Link"! Thanks 

rossfingal


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## cherry_560sel (Dec 6, 2010)

*Finally finished *

Hooray !!!!! The front of the house has been entirely re-roofed and it looks great. My neighbors have come out and complimented me on the roof and have been amazed that one person did it all :thumbup:. I personally was a little disappointed because I can see all the little imperfections from where I got off my lines and had to compensate, but after taking a long look from the sidewalk or from across the street it really does look nice. I am glad I did this project because it really gave me a sense of fullfillment, but it is HARD HARD work. I plan to get help with the back side only because it is one continous roof line and I don't want to get caught without a roof in one of our infamous Texas "out of nowhere all of a sudden" storms that pop up around this time of year. Can't wait for the first big rain so I can hang out in the attic and check for any leaks. I don't think there will be any, but I want to be sure...lol. Thanks to everyone for all the input and suggestions.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

cherry 560 sel

Glad someone could help!
It looks good from my house!! 
Good luck with the siding!

rossfingal


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## integrahi (May 1, 2011)

*Roof Shingle Staggering*

I am a home inspector in Eastern Pa and I am on 1-2 roofs a day and see the result of improper staggering on occasion. Staggering each coarse 6" left and right and working your way up instead of across is not the correct method and also not recommended by the mfg. One of the posts stated that you tried laying it out both ways in your shop and couldn't tell the difference. That may be true when the shingles are new but given as little as 7-10yrs it will become more pronounced. I have seen several roofs installed this way and often find signs of leakage and then silicone caulking between the ends of the shingles. The shingles will also sometimes begin to curl up on the ends when installed this way. It is not that difficult or really that more time consuming to just install it the right way.


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## steves7839 (Aug 18, 2019)

cherry_560sel said:


> Ok. Here's my question. I roofed for the first time last week-end and I noticed something very peculiar that I can;t figure out. You lay the starter strip. Then you start your first course of shingles by cutting 6" from the end of the first shingle so it does not line up with the starter strip underneath it.


No. You cut 6" from the starter strip. (Per Certainteed CT20 install manual.) Use a whole three-tab shingle on the first row, cut 6" off the next row first shingle, 12" off the third and so on.

The goal is to keep the starter gap 6" away from the first row shingle gap. Unless you are shingling center outward to center a pattern between the rake edges, (unusual), you do not cut the first row shingle.


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