# Support I beam needed



## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

I have a house that the previous owner installed two 4"X6" posts under the second story sub floor that hold the main support beam for the second floor of my two story house. These two posts are in the middle of my garage supporting the beam that runs from the back of my house to the front of my house between both garage doors. 
The beam will be 19'8" from wall to wall. 

As you can see from the pictures I did make a home made beam thinking it would be strong enough. This beam is still in place but it still flex's to much and I ended up leaving one of the 4"X6" posts under it to help hold the second floor (which is my living room)

My question is.. I want to remove the existing home made beam and buy a 14"X22lbpf I beam and install that bad boy. How do I beef the 14" beam up so it is stronger? *I need a diagram.* 
My engineer here at work said to Zig Zaz some 1/4" plate thats the same width of one side of the flanges in an up and down pattern about 4 feet long along the beam both sides with gussets in between. 
Like this: |/|\|/|\|/| ok I know thats a cheap example but will this work?
I was thinking of welding in some 2" pipe in a X pattern about every 3 feet along both sides of the flanges. 
Is the 14" overkill? its only 200 bucks from my metal supply company. 

Thanks
Mick 
Galveston/Houston Tx


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Mick, hard to say what your beam needs given the information. There is a lot that goes in to properly sizing a beam...A lot of engineering. Most on this site are not qualified to give that information even with the right information. Its like asking "how long is a rope"...

What made you decide on a W14x22 beam and how do you know it will need to be strengthened? Why not go with a deeper or heavier beam shape instead of fiddling with welding additional metal to the W14x22?

I can say that the truss-like fix that your engineer friend came up with is unconventional at best, and in all my years of inspecting beams I've never seen that done. Not to mention the impracticality of it. :no: The normal way that beams in span are strengthened is by adding thickness to the underside of the bottom flange, like 1/2x6" steel the full length of the beam. Correct welding and good penetration are of course critical.

I'd abandon the idea of welding steel tube to it in the suggested fashion, and I'd get a qualified engineer to design you a real-world fix. For less than $300 you can get an engineer to come over and design the fix. That would be required for the inspector anyway, and it'll help you out if and when you sell the place.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

yep I do want to do it correctly so if I do ever sell it wont be cause a problem with the sale. 
I chose the w14X22 because its big, and only weighs in at 430 lbs. 
thanks for your help, I guess I will keep digging for more information.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I totally agree with Kc. And want to add, the engineer may have your get bigger hangers after you thicken the beam to carry the joist from it's bottom. Here is the problem you have with splitting, rating your joists to one size smaller:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DW...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA750,M1

Be safe, G


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

GBAR in WA said:


> I totally agree with Kc. And want to add, the engineer may have your get bigger hangers after you thicken the beam to carry the joist from it's bottom. Here is the problem you have with splitting, rating your joists to one size smaller:
> 
> 
> Be safe, G


Yes I was wondering about that. The house use to not have hangers. I removed the 2x2 and installed them. The joist were only toenailed in. House built in 80 buy a german husband and wife. I have redone alot but want to install this new beam.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Another consideration is whether or not the structure is able to support the beam. The plate/bolts configuration you've got in the picture is not good, and certainly wouldn't properly transfer the loads from the beam to the wall. There should be several studs ganged together in the wall under the beam (or a pipe column), and 4x thickness solid blocking (one 2x rim and 2x vertical blocking) from the bottom plate down to the foundation. If not, plan on doing some framing.

On a side note, you should realize that the garage ceiling is required to be rocked with 5/8" rock, and that includes wrapping the beam so it isn't exposed to fire.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

ThisOldH0use said:


> I chose the w14X22 because its big, and only weighs in at 430 lbs.


As you've probably realized from my posts, that tactic isn't going to be an effective way to choose a beam. It needs to be professionally sized. Everything from the floor's tributary load to the roof loads to even the wind loads on the structure will be taken into account. It isn't something you can go to a chart and look up unfortunately...Although there are charts out there that will give you a false sense of security.

I've found that there's often a lot of misunderstanding about structural steel out there, especially with DIYers. People look up and see a steel beam and assume it is really strong. People often don't like the steel posts in their basement and they look up and see that there's a steel beam up there and put their faith in the notion that it is steel so it is really strong....Next thing you know the posts are "no longer needed" and are removed. Not the case. Steel is soft and malleable, and weak as hell in the event of a fire. It bends under loads as you've found out. Can't tell you how many times I've seen people use 6" and 8" beams instead of the 12" or 14" beams they needed just because they figured that a little steel has to be stronger than a lot of wood!


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> Another consideration is whether or not the structure is able to support the beam. The plate/bolts configuration you've got in the picture is not good, and certainly wouldn't properly transfer the loads from the beam to the wall. There should be several studs ganged together in the wall under the beam (or a pipe column), and 4x thickness solid blocking (one 2x rim and 2x vertical blocking) from the bottom plate down to the foundation. If not, plan on doing some framing.
> 
> On a side note, you should realize that the garage ceiling is required to be rocked with 5/8" rock, and that includes wrapping the beam so it isn't exposed to fire.


Yes I did plan on running the new beam into that wall and supporting it from the bottom. I did load that wall with about 8 2X4's but I realized the support needs to be under the ends of the beam which is what I will do on both ends. 
As far as sheetrocking it, Thats not a problem im not against it. 
Believe me im not going to install another I beam untill I get proof what im installing is going to work. 
Thanks for your help.


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## comp1911 (Jul 20, 2007)

You should consult with a structural engineer in your area.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

comp1911 said:


> You should consult with a structural engineer in your area.


 
Yea im in contact with one now. 
Thanks


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

The metal fabricator that I bought my beam from had an engineer on staff that sized it for me for free since I was buying the beam from them. I just brought in my plans, he did his calcs and spec'd the beam. Mine was a 22 ft span with no posts and one level above. It was a very heavy beam (over 800 lbs). You'll probably need a couple genie lifts to put it in position. Be very careful, one slip could actually kill someone.

And as others have said, getting the right beam is only part of it. You need to make sure you have the right end bearing, end posts and that the footing below the end posts is adequate for the large point loads.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

ThisOldH0use said:


> Yea im in contact with one now.
> Thanks


 
Make sure to post back your results.


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## DigitalDreams (May 31, 2009)

*Research is required*

I do structural I beams construction and here is the steps you need to follow to get a proper beam.

1etermine load in easy words how much weight does the beam need to hold.
2:Convert that weight to fkips and find a fkips chart they can be found online
and determine height and weight per foot of beam needed to hold the weight 
over distance you want to run beam.(example on 18 foot opening needing to hold 20,000 pounds I would use a 8x 28 I beam(this is just a example )and then add weight of beam to that figure.
3: Find support columns that can hold weight plus beam weight and then you have a good safe support.
4:To find the weight of the beam (example 14 x 24 beam 20 feet long is 14 is height of beam 24 is pounds it weighs per foot times length.


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## DigitalDreams (May 31, 2009)

Additional note based on your photos above the header looks like tube and is plated into wall and post on other end. If my observations are right you need bigger tube with thicker wall for less flex and hopefully
the wood post end is sitting on top of the post making use of compressive load versus bolted to side and relying on shear the concrete end looks ok as long as you used proper length adhesive anchors into block.However tube is designed to flex and while it may be strong enough for the load it will not be rigid as a I beam which is cambered and designed to flatten out with increased load.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

DigitalDreams said:


> I do structural I beams construction and here is the steps you need to follow to get a proper beam.
> 
> 1etermine load in easy words how much weight does the beam need to hold.
> 2:Convert that weight to fkips and find a fkips chart they can be found online
> ...


DD, hmm I have no way of knowing what that part of my house weighs. 
I know that # needs to be factored into the equasion, but I just dont know how I can come up with that number. 

The beam needs to be approx. 20 feet long. the width of my garage is about 22 feet wide. 

Thank you very much for your help too. I appreciate it. 
I can post more detailed pics if needed. 

I was getting tired of the "You should consult with a structural engineer in your area" captain ovbious statements.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

ThisOldH0use said:


> DD, hmm I have no way of knowing what that part of my house weighs.
> I know that # needs to be factored into the equasion, but I just dont know how I can come up with that number.
> 
> I was getting tired of the "You should consult with a structural engineer in your area" captain ovbious statements.


Well, here's another Captain Obvious statement that apparently isn't obvious to you: if you give the engineer the details of your house construction he will figure out the loads in order to spec the beam.:laughing:

Doesn't your metal fabricator have an engineer on staff? If not find another one. Your making this much to hard. Put together some drawings of your current house floorplan showing the dimensions, walk into the fabricator and in 15 minutes or less they'll figure it out and you'll have a beam ordered.


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## DigitalDreams (May 31, 2009)

*Easy guess*

Well if you don't know what the house weighs simply find out what the 
combined compression load was of the posts and header you removed 
and add 20% overkill never hurt in most construction.I mean if a guy comes into our shop needs a 8 X 28 and right now and we don't have what he needs 
in stock we just find a 8 x 34 that is drop from a bigger job and make him a deal.

Any decent lumber guy should be able to give you compression load per post and lbs per foot margin on the lumber header.


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

DigitalDreams said:


> I do structural I beams construction and here is the steps you need to follow to get a proper beam.
> 
> 1etermine load in easy words how much weight does the beam need to hold.
> 2:Convert that weight to fkips and find a fkips chart they can be found online
> ...



:no:
There's a little bit more to it than that.

Dead load calc, live load calc, eccentric load conditions, combined loading calcs, does shear or flexure govern, bracing calc, buckling calcs, deflection calcs, moment calcs, end reactions, connections, weld strength calc...


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

DigitalDreams said:


> Well if you don't know what the house weighs simply find out what the
> combined compression load was of the posts and header you removed
> and add 20% overkill never hurt in most construction.I mean if a guy comes into our shop needs a 8 X 28 and right now and we don't have what he needs
> in stock we just find a 8 x 34 that is drop from a bigger job and make him a deal.
> ...


I sent all my info to my buddy so he can give it to his boss who is a engineer. He said he will look at it for me. First thing he said was the bolting of the beam to the wall has to go. I chuckled and said I agreed.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

Aggie67 said:


> :no:
> There's a little bit more to it than that.
> 
> Dead load calc, live load calc, eccentric load conditions, combined loading calcs, does shear or flexure govern, bracing calc, buckling calcs, deflection calcs, moment calcs, end reactions, connections, weld strength calc...


So if I fax you over my information you want to give a shot at what size beam I should use, and how to beef it up some?? I can compensate you for your time. 

Captian obvious said it should only take 15 mins of your time. But I know better.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

You're probably better off finding someone in your own area. Your local snow loads are, most likely, different than anyone that may spec for you on the internet. 
If you know the load specs and measurements where those loads are, it shouldn't take long at all to plug the numbers into the software. The beams that I had sized only took about 10 minutes to spec.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

Clutchcargo said:


> You're probably better off finding someone in your own area. Your local snow loads are, most likely, different than anyone that may spec for you on the internet.
> If you know the load specs and measurements where those loads are, it shouldn't take long at all to plug the numbers into the software. The beams that I had sized only took about 10 minutes to spec.


Yea but It snowed a inch here once, im more worried about hurricanes. 

Im located between Houston and Galveston Texas. 

I lost 3 shingles during hurricane Ike. I was one of the few in my neighbourhood that had no damage and the only one with no flooding. The guy that built my house built it on a pile of dirt about a foot high. 10 more inches and my house would of had water in it.


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

ThisOldH0use said:


> So if I fax you over my information you want to give a shot at what size beam I should use, and how to beef it up some?? I can compensate you for your time.
> 
> Captian obvious said it should only take 15 mins of your time. But I know better.


I'd love to, but my license only covers in NJ. That's a big no-no with licensed engineers, and I could get my license yanked.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Clutchcargo said:


> The beams that I had sized only took about 10 minutes to spec.


Mine had to get some coffee so 15 minutes.:laughing:


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

Aggie67 said:


> I'd love to, but my license only covers in NJ. That's a big no-no with licensed engineers, and I could get my license yanked.


oh, yea that wouldnt be good. I now have two different engineer's working on a beam/s support. I will see what they want to do and go from there.


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

jogr said:


> Mine had to get some coffee so 15 minutes.:laughing:


I bet you used a egg timer. :lol:


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## DeanColumn1 (Feb 29, 2012)

*Column*

I hope everything worked out. What did you ever decide to do?

David


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## ThisOldH0use (May 27, 2009)

I never did put a beam under the wooden support, other than the one in the pics I posted. I removed the metal beam, cut back all the joist 4" on one side and 3 on the other. I bought 3 2x12's and glued plywood on the side of them, slid them up and screwed the sht out of them like a boss. two on one side and one on the other of the origional beam. I will post a pic. Problem solved. Oh and I added longer hangers.


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## DeanColumn1 (Feb 29, 2012)

That is a good way of doing it. Glad it worked out for you. 

David


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