# Showing off my basement framing pics......



## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

After 5 months I have completed one room of my basement. ( I still have another small one to do)

I would like to thank everyone that has helped me with all my newbie questions.

In particular Atlantic, with his expert advice and patience.
And Kuiporng, who has shared all of his experiences with me.

Hopefully, soon, I will be at the drywall stage, and asking my numerous questions....


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Will you be putting up drywall on the ceiling?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

yes I plan to put up drywall on the ceiling.


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

I am remodeling my basement as well.
If I where you, I would remove that vapor barrier before drywalling. 
I live in the northeast, and I definitely disagree witha vapor barrier in the basement. In fact, I dont like poly sheeting anywhere!


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

You are opening yourself up to a world of mold. Water vapor needs to escape through the drywall into the room. It is going to condensate on the poly barrier and the insulation and wood is going to get moldy. I would also use densarmor drywall-it has no paper on it-it made green wall obsolete.
I did my basement with 1 inch pink foam on the walls-the foam will allow vapor through. Then I studded and insulated down to 1 foot above ground with fiberglass UNFACED insulation. Then drywalled with densarmor.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

markd said:


> I am remodeling my basement as well.
> If I where you, I would remove that vapor barrier before drywalling.
> I live in the northeast, and I definitely disagree witha vapor barrier in the basement. In fact, I dont like poly sheeting anywhere!


Incorrect. What you are advising is against ALL cold climate building code regulations. It is required by code that a vapor barrier be installed facing the warm side of the living space. It is common knowledge in the building industry regarding cold air/warm air meeting .... and the results.....do your research before posting wrong information...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

markd said:


> You are opening yourself up to a world of mold. Water vapor needs to escape through the drywall into the room. It is going to condensate on the poly barrier and the insulation and wood is going to get moldy.


Again...incorrect information...

Examples:

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/vaporbarriers
(point made in the above article link:
_*" One of the most important vapor barriers in the home is the one between the wall insulation and the interior side of exterior walls. Because wall cavities are sealed and have no means of allowing accumulated moisture to escape, an effective moisture barrier is crucial in preventing warm, wet air from entering the walls.")*_

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_barrier

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11810

And many, many more articles and building code regulations.....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Thanks Atlantic*

Thanks for the information.

I did doubt a lot of what markd was saying.

Did some research myself on what he had said, and did not think he was correct.

You're always there for me......:thumbsup:


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

*i stand by what i said*

You will get mold!!!
check out www.buildingsciences.com 

vapor barriers below grade are wrong-it is why people still have moldy musty basements-dont keep doing what other people have been doing wrong!


why do you think you need a vapor barrier??


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> yes I plan to put up drywall on the ceiling.


You may have to provide for more support for the 2 x 2 depending on the length of them.. The drywall may be too heavy for the 2 x 2?
The photos do not show the length or if there is more supports for the ceiling 2 x 2.


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

markd said:


> You will get mold!!!
> check out www.buildingsciences.com
> 
> vapor barriers below grade are wrong-it is why people still have moldy musty basements-dont keep doing what other people have been doing wrong!
> ...


What you expect me to search through that whole web site for your proof? Post a link...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*redline*

The 2X2 soffit "ceiling" is approx.3 1/2 to 4 feet wide and was told that I don't need any support between them. 

They are placed 24 inches apart.

They are not structural, as you know, I think they should hold up drywall.

Thanks for your advice.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> The 2X2 soffit "ceiling" is approx.3 1/2 to 4 feet wide and was told that I don't need any support between them.
> 
> They are placed 24 inches apart.
> 
> ...


Y.M., That is pushing it with the distance. The wider the 'spread', the more the lumber used to frame will sag, and so will the sheetrock.

This is what I suggest:
Right now you have your 2x3's space 24" apart. These, you placed on the 'flat' (widest side facing downward). 
You should add more 2x3's in the center of each of those 24" areas. Face them the other way (opposite the 'flat). Framing will sag when placed on the 'flat' side.
Install those the other way.
Then use either 1/4" sheetrock or 3/8" sheetrock for the undersides of the soffit you built. These will have less weight and will be less likely to sag.
Chances are you will not find these sizes at your local Large Home stores, but a drywall or building supply place will have them.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Great job...

vapour barrier is required by code as I live in the same city of you and I apply the permit...

but the code also require another sort of separator between the concrete and the insulation which I am not sure if you have installed...
if you hadn't, may be Markd is not totally wrong...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

I have used 2X2s for the soffit.

Would I be ok if I put another 2X2 in between the 24 inch spacing?

(If it sags a little, I'm the client, and I won't complain. :laughing: )

The only thing I would really be concerned with is if it falls on someone's head.

Also, if I put more screws than usual, would that compensate?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Thanks Kuiporng

I have not put anything against the concrete walls.
(Other than hydraulic cement, where needed)

I have also moved the new walls (my framing) 3 inches away from the cement walls.

I think that should be OK?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

What if I put 2X4's inbetween the 2X2s that are already there now.

Would that work, in terms of sagging?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

3 inches, that is quite some spaces... how do you hold the insulation from falling off to this 3 inches space then? just curious....

I suppose if you have that 3" space, you are kind of protect from getting mold then... although I really didn't see people doing that before... but other than use up some space... I don't see any issue with that...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I had to move in 3 inches because of piping that was behind.

The insulation sits right inbetween the wood studs snuggly and does not move.

When I needed to cut insulation to fit more narrow spaces, I just cut it about 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch wider,and then I got a nice snug fit.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

thanks for the reply... I would guess this is the case ...

anyhow, one last comment... for those piping which will touch the insulation... may be you should consider insulating them to avoid water condensation in the summer... touching the insulation... if they are of cold water pipes...well that is if you have big temperature difference... which not necessary always so may be you don't need it...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

They are gas pipes that run along the top.
So insulating not really an issue.

And one of them is a plastic drain pipe which I did not insulate, and I don't think it should be a problem, hopefully.


How about your pictures, Kuiporng.
I would love to see them.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

yes I am too lazy for those computer picture stuff... I just moved my washer/dryer to the new laundry room and get my two wash cycle done yesterday... on my rock solid marble tiles.... I like it a lot... marble tiles is a big different...

anyhow... I will finish the toilet and pedersin sink... then I will take picture...for sure... should be within this week....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Marble in the laundry room.
Now that is classy. Must look really nice.

Your basement renovation must be really nice. 
Mine is not as detailed as yours.

I decided to put no bathroom. (Too much to learn:laughing: ) Maybe in my next project :laughing: 

My basement basically is one large room, and a smaller room.
With my laundry area sealed off and my furnace sealed off.
Very simple.

I have two concrete columns to deal with still. 
I was thinking of putting mirror (tiles or not), so it would look like
they will disappear. I will leave that till the end.

I am about ready to start my other small room.
Very straight forward.

Perimeter walls, and soffit that runs against top two walls.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Marble tiles is no difference in laying as with regular tile, the only difference is cutting, it takes longer to cut, but with wet saw, it is like cut like plastic, and no dangers at all... it just need more time... but the result is tremendas different from regular tiles... I will never lay anything else in bathroom if I am the one doing the project... it just too good to pass... materials cost is minimum consider there aren't much marbles inside a washroom/laundry room anyway... the main cost is still labour cost in cutting... but DIY makes that nothing...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Your wife, and my husband are lucky that we are DIYers.
Don't you think? :yes: 

I need your opinion on cutting ceramic tiles.
I guess I have to buy some sort of tile cutter.

Are they electric or is there something that I can use that is by hand?

I still have not researched any of that, since I am not ready for that yet.


Any advice for me?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

If you are going to lay your whole basement with tiles, you need a good quality hand cutter, don't buy the cheap one from HD, get a good quality one at low price from the internet or get a good quality expensive one from HD....

options is , also buy a used Makita 9.6V wet saw, this guy is supper in cutting curves in tiles rather than use regular hand biting clamp...


these two tools is all you need for cutting tiles... you don't need wet saw, unless you also use marbles...

and my wife didn't really appreciate it (at least she didn't say so), keep asking me to pay for someone to do it... in order not to use up my time... she doesn't know there are more to this .... besides $$...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

My husband, does not want to hire anyone, and does not want to do it either, (besides the fact that he really does not know what he is doing. 

I am better at DIY things.

Thanks for the advice on the tile cutter.
When the time comes, I will search for a good one.


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

*here is the info you requested*

I do know what I am talking about. It is not code to have a basement vapor barrier where I live.

"In cold climates, the moisture load in the winter months is primarily from the interior, so roof and wall assemblies are generally designed to dry primarily to the exterior. Wintertime condensation control can be facilitated by elevating the temperature of the first condensing surface (the back side of the exterior sheathing) via the use of insulating sheathing. When XPS (with relatively low permeability) is used, then only slow drying is available to the exterior. Accordingly, the majority of drying occurs to the interior during the summer months. Therefore, interior vapor barriers should not be installed."

go see: www.buildingscience.com/bsc/designsthatwork/cold/profiles/chicago.htm


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

don't know much about the technology... they are so confusing... different opinions everywhere... may be what you said is related to other thing like "double barrier"... anyhow... we just do what the goveronment said... the goveronment could be wrong too...


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

*atlantic-*

We are talking about a finished basement-from an engineering standpoint, this exterior wall is entirely different than the above grade exterior wall. Air movement will occur above grade. You will have drying to the outside above grade.
You will not have drying to the exterior below grade. You will always have a concrete wall with a higher than average moisture content. It is cold, in winter and summer, and water molecules will condense on the inside of your poly sheet wher it will have no place to escape!

You can do what you want, I am only offering friendly advice. This is a technologically superior option for below grade construction.

I think it is unfair to blast me by saying I dont know what I am talking about. There are many many contractors who have no idea what they are doing!


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*markd*

Before starting this project, I had blanket insulation in the whole basement which consisted of pink insulation, R12 and a vapor barrier over it.

During the summer months when it was hot, I use to see water droplets under the plastic vapor barrier and then it would dry up.

When I removed it all to do my project, the insulation was not wet at all and the cement walls had no mold on them either.

(It was like that for 3 almost 4 years).


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

markd said:


> We are talking about a finished basement-from an engineering standpoint, this exterior wall is entirely different than the above grade exterior wall. Air movement will occur above grade. You will have drying to the outside above grade.
> You will not have drying to the exterior below grade. You will always have a concrete wall with a higher than average moisture content. It is cold, in winter and summer, and water molecules will condense on the inside of your poly sheet wher it will have no place to escape!
> 
> You can do what you want, I am only offering friendly advice. This is a technologically superior option for below grade construction.
> ...


First off, I understand your point...as it relates to a DAMP basement or environment. A damp or even wet area should never be sealed off with a vapor barrier. That is common knowledge. 

However, we are talking about DRY basements in the US & North America. If a basement has an unusual amount of dampness or moisture, then no one should be building any kind of living space down there to begin with, without doing something about the moisture.
We always advise Home Owners to address moisture issues before even considering finishing off their basements. 

.....Again, we are are talking about basements that are dry and have been dry for some time - in terms of doing any remodeling. 

Let me share some 1st hand information with you as opposed to simply "information read on the internet":

We have opened MANY, MANY basement walls that were finished 10, 20, 30 years ago. Even my own basement walls (30 years previously done). 
We have NEVER seen ANY issues or signs of mold in dry basements that were finished with insulation & vapor barriers. On the other hand, we have found issues with black mildew on dry basement walls and insulation - without vapor barriers. Again, this is what we have found onsite with our own eyes .... at various home locations.

You keep referring to that one website that is a company in the UK. (I still haven't been able to find any relevant information on it)

Informative site:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11760

From the above link:
_"...As air warms, its ability to hold water vapor increases; this capacity decreases as air cools...._
_The moisture that the air can no longer hold condenses on the first cold surface it encounters (the dew point.) If this surface is within an exterior wall cavity, wet insulation and framing will be the result. In most U.S. climates, properly installed vapor diffusion retarders can be used to reduce the amount of moisture transfer." -_ Thus the reason for vapor barriers.

Properly framed basements should have a space for 'inside' air circulation between the freezwall and the framed wall as well. That is why we advise DIYers to leave a space of about 2"+ between those two walls.

Examples of code requirements:

*IBC code S502.5 Mandatory Moisture Control *(under energy efficiency)
_All framed walls, floors and ceilings that are not ventilated to allow moisture to escape are to have a vapor retarder having a permeance of 1 perm or less. The vapor retarder is to be installed on the warm in winter side of the insulation. _
_Buildings in Climate zones 1,2, and 3 construction where freezing will not damage the materials and locations where approved means to avoid condensation in unventilated spaces are provided are exempt from this requirement._ (this simply means that warmer climate areas are exempt from this)

*MA 780 MCR Building Envelope Requirements:*
*J4.2.1* Vapor Retarders:_ The design shall not create conditions of accelerated deterioration from moisture condensation. In all frame walls, floors, and ceilings not ventilated to allow moisture to escape, an approved vapor retarder having a rating of 1.0 perm, when tested in accordance with standard ASTM E 96...shall be installed on the warm-in-winter side of the thermal insulation._

This website is about finding information that is accurate and code accepted/code approved/code required. It is about helping people to do work that will meet and pass their local building code laws, not break them.
It is not about speculation, testing, estimates, theories, nor is it about pushing things on people that have been read about on the internet (but not locally code approved or accepted)...

You may feel that you are being 'blasted' about this as you stated. But, you should be careful about coming onto any site/forum and advising people to do things that are against their local code regulations and laws....regardless of how much you like the ideas that you have 'read about on the internet'....


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## bjstewa (Feb 23, 2007)

markd said:


> I do know what I am talking about. It is not code to have a basement vapor barrier where I live.
> 
> "In cold climates, the moisture load in the winter months is primarily from the interior, so roof and wall assemblies are generally designed to dry primarily to the exterior. Wintertime condensation control can be facilitated by elevating the temperature of the first condensing surface (the back side of the exterior sheathing) via the use of insulating sheathing. When XPS (with relatively low permeability) is used, then only slow drying is available to the exterior. Accordingly, the majority of drying occurs to the interior during the summer months. Therefore, interior vapor barriers should not be installed."
> 
> go see: www.buildingscience.com/bsc/designsthatwork/cold/profiles/chicago.htm


 
This is a very interesting debate. I am in the process of a basement remodel too, and I have become increasingly frustrated about the vapor barrier topic.

I had already read many of the Web sites linked above, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus. I live in a northern climate as well (Wisconsin) and based on his latest research, my inspector suggested that I do NOT use a vapor barrier at all.

The half of my basement that I am finishing right now is completely below grade. I will need to make my decision within the next couple weeks. I have already framed about half of it and I am planning on using unfaced fiberglass batts either way (fiberglass is also not recommended, but it is too expensive to spray).

One day I think I'm going to go one direction, then I change my mind again. Mold is my biggest fear though.

Ben


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## elementx440 (Jan 24, 2007)

Wouldn't it make more sense to put a vapor barrier right on the block, and put all the insulation on top of it? Wont this keep the moisture away from all the sensitive materials?


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

*yummy mummy*



yummy mummy said:


> Before starting this project, I had blanket insulation in the whole basement which consisted of pink insulation, R12 and a vapor barrier over it.
> 
> During the summer months when it was hot, I use to see water droplets under the plastic vapor barrier and then it would dry up.
> 
> ...


Well there you have it! If you can see water droplets, then imagine what will happen when you cover the wall up with a poly barrier and drywall. Then add some wood, drywall paper, and a dark environment. Mmmm ...that mold is getting really hungry now!! 

I think 1 or 2" polystyrene foam on the basement wall, (tape all seams of course) followed by a 2x3 wall at 24" on center, with no vapor barrier or further fiberglass insulation is the best bet. I would use densarmor drywall because it contains no paper to feed mold-it is a thin coat of fiberglass cloth. I dont like metal because they are too cold and the condensation on these below grade makes them unsuitable.

Well enough of this. Good luck yummy mummy. I would tear that plastic off, remove the last foot of fiberglass, and replace with 2" foam in between studs (unless you are totally sure you will never get any water, then just remove the poly, apply densarmor and call it a day. I dont think the code officers are going to throw you in jail for not wanting mold in your house.
Good luck!


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm keeping the vapor barrier.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm also 3 inches away from all the walls.
I have no concern with mold. I have never seen mold in my basement.

The blanket insulation was half hazardly put on and that is why the water droplets were there.
Even thought there was water droplets, still there is absolutely no mold there whatsoever.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*elementx440*

I think the reason for not putting the vapor barrier right up against the cement wall is because you have to allow for air circulation.

(In my case, I have moved in 3 inches all around the perimeter of the room) to allow for that.

( I think that's why) (I am still a newbie at this, but am learning)

Have fun with your reno.


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## markd (Mar 4, 2007)

*read away...here is everything you need*

fantastic link!!

buildingscience.com/bsc/*...*/*Basement*_Insulation_Systems-2002.pdf 


hope you dont get mold, but I think you will

well thats all I have to say about that.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

I'd like to end this right here.

Obviously there is alot to be said in regards to this issue... 
This debate has been going on for the past 10 + years in the industry (I heard about it back then too)...

Let people do what they want. Consider your local climate zone, area, and what your individual basement conditions dictate.

Also, be careful about what your own local building codes/laws require - call your local building departments for what is approved of in your climate area for; _'dry'_ basements .... or.... for '_high-humidity-prone'_ basements.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

This is not about vapor barriers 

Are you putting in doors to the mechanicals? I think you are going to need a second stud on each side of the doorway for rigidity.

One more thing: What is the distance between the receptacles?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*beer geek*

Hi 

No, I will not be putting doors for the furnace area.

I don't know what you mean by distance between the receptacles.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

AKA Electrical outlets.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*beer geek*

I know what receptacles are, beer geek.

What I don't know is what you mean by "distance".

I have put a receptacle on each wall, where I thought I needed one for future use.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

If you measure along the wall from one to the other; how far apart are they? That's what I mean by the distance between them. Here, you need one every 12 feet(or less). I only see one in each of the first 2 pictures. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like there are enough.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

No, beer geek, I did not put one every 12 feet. There is one on every wall, but some are further apart.

I don't think I will need that many.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

I understand about what you think you need but what do the electrical codes for your area say you should have?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Code says one every 12 feet.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

OK. Nevermind then.


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## steel (Feb 20, 2007)

yummy mummy said:


>


That cat would have been a serious fire hazard on an old school wood burner.

It looks good, but all of those soffits make me cringe. I have been building two bedrooms and a living room for my girls down in our basement for the past 1-1/2 years. I had quite the mess of ducts and beams to wrap. It came out looking really nice, but it really tested my patience. Drywall is certainly not my thing.

If you can spare the headroom down there, a more simplistic fix to the drywall on the 2x2's could be to screw a sheet of OSB to the underside of it to sturdy everything up. I don't know if this is the best idea, but it worked for me. Run a bunch of 3" screws everywhere that might help and you have yourself a nice quick, cheap hillbilly fix. You might want to check this idea with someone who might have more experience in a situation like this.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

steel said:


> That cat would have been a serious fire hazard on an old school wood burner.
> 
> It looks good, but all of those soffits make me cringe. I have been building two bedrooms and a living room for my girls down in our basement for the past 1-1/2 years. I had quite the mess of ducts and beams to wrap. It came out looking really nice, but it really tested my patience. Drywall is certainly not my thing.
> 
> If you can spare the headroom down there, a more simplistic fix to the drywall on the 2x2's could be to screw a sheet of OSB to the underside of it to sturdy everything up. I don't know if this is the best idea, but it worked for me. Run a bunch of 3" screws everywhere that might help and you have yourself a nice quick, cheap hillbilly fix. You might want to check this idea with someone who might have more experience in a situation like this.


The cat..ha, ha...

Duct work soffits: Yes, it can be a project to frame these. You have little head space to work with ...and ....you don't want to add any thickness to the framing to take away from the limited head space.

When we have to do a 'spread' like that in regards to soffits - We frame each side of the soffit so that the bottom plate of the frame is even with the bottom of the duct work. Then we use 3/4" Plywood ripped down to 24" widths x 8'. We use these widths like WIDE strapping. By doing it this way, you can make one 4'x8' sheet of plywood stretch a much larger area, than using entire sheets to frame the bottom of the soffits. The results are just as rigid.
This is really the way to do the soffit frame in order to eliminate any sagging. This type of frame is rigid enough that you could even use 1/4" sheetrock on the underside of the soffit.
Done it many times with great results.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

The soffit was a pain in the  .

I would like to have used the 3/4" plywood, but if I told my husband that I wanted another power tool, (circular saw) I would not be very "yummy" any longer. :wink: 

So, I decided to do the 2X2's. The head space is very limited.
I know that drywall will be a challenge, since this soffit is also part of 2 concrete beams that I had to deal with.

(If I was not the determined type, I would have given up long ago).

But I'm going to do it.

Now I'm going to tell you something that you guys may not believe, but very true. 

I have put in approx. 700 wood scews, BY HAND, (yes, I'm crazy)
but I have found it much faster to do a pilot hole and then just grab by screwdriver and put them in, instead of changing bits.

(I plan to do the same with drywall) :yes: (Obviously, I'm in no real hurry).


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## bjstewa (Feb 23, 2007)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> The cat..ha, ha...
> 
> Duct work soffits: Yes, it can be a project to frame these. You have little head space to work with ...and ....you don't want to add any thickness to the framing to take away from the limited head space.
> 
> ...


Any chance you could post a pic (or pics) of this technique? I think I understand, but I'm not 100% sure. My supply and return mains are side by side and they run perpendicular to the joists. My soffits will need to be about 36" in width.

Also, on a related note: the hallway wall needs to be framed parallel and directly underneath the soffit. Any thoughts or concerns with this?

Ben


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

bjstewa said:


> Any chance you could post a pic (or pics) of this technique? I think I understand, but I'm not 100% sure. My supply and return mains are side by side and they run perpendicular to the joists. My soffits will need to be about 36" in width.


I am sorry that I don't have any pictures, I have not always made it a point to take pics of our work, especially the different phases of the work. I am now trying 'trying' to take pics of everything on the jobs to serve as better points of illustration and for discussions such as this. 

In essence, what you do is to build a soffit front on each side of the duct work. This soffit front looks like a 'mini' wall. It consists of a top plate and a bottom plate, with 'short' studs placed 16" O.C. We prefer to use 2x4's for this rather than 2x3's, as the 2x4's are straighter, and there is less twisting than you get when using 2x3's for such an application. We take a measurement of the lowest hanging point of the duct work (Ceiling Joist to bottom of duct). Then take that measure ment and subtract 3" (The top and bottom plate: 1 1/2" + 1 1/2" = 3"). Add about 1/4" To clear any possible duct work 'projections (Screw heads, connection flanges, brackets, etc.) Thew final nukmber, then gives you the measurement of your short studs or jacks, in this case. Obviously, duble check all these measurements and also check to see if each area of the ductwork is the same measurement from start to finish of length of it's run.

We pre-assemble them and pre nail them 'on the floor', then lift them into place and nail them up onto each side of your Duct work. We usually also pre-measure and mark (The ceiling joists) where the soffit fronts will run. Snap a chalk line to align these soffit fronts so that they will be the same width (apart) ....all the way down the run of the ducts in the ceiling.
You could then use the 3/4" Plywood and install under the soffits...to the outside edge of them. In your case, it maybe easier to just go ahead and use the full widths of sheets edge to edge all the way down (rather than cutting 24" strips).
In your situation, this works well, since your ducts run perpendiculer to the joists, you can easily nail the 'top plate' of these soffit faces into the ceiling joists.



bjstewa said:


> Also, on a related note: the hallway wall needs to be framed parallel and directly underneath the soffit. Any thoughts or concerns with this?
> Ben


No concerns about this, just make sure that the screws or nails don't penetrate thru to the duct work overhead while attaching the wall to the bottom soffit members (3/4" plywood or strapping) I note ... "strapping" since, you could actually use strapping, rather than the 3/4" plywood for the soffit bottom, under these conditions. 
You see, even tho the span will be 36", by installing a wall centered underneath the soffit, you will then be creating support under it. That span will now only by about 16" on each side, and then it will be supported by the 2x4 wall. Tie the top plate of that wall into the strapping underneath using about 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" Nails or screws. Attach the bottom plate securely to the concrete floor and you will have a solid framing arrangement.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Now I'm going to tell you something that you guys may not believe, but very true.
> 
> I have put in approx. 700 wood scews, BY HAND, (yes, I'm crazy)
> but I have found it much faster to do a pilot hole and then just grab by screwdriver and put them in, instead of changing bits.
> ...


You well deserve all the tool help you can get... get the tool early which you can use it at the earlier stage of your project.... I don't think anyone could possibly hand screwing when hanging drywalls... may be if you have two helpers who can help you keep the drywall in place... but even that, it is just too hard... even with a lift, you still only have a very short time period for the drywall be held steadily, power drive is not just save you effort, it let you put screw in fast enough... you can definitely not able to drill a pilot hole when hanging drywall....

so go get a Makita Drywall Screwgun ASAP (which can be used to screw other thing as well)... you won't regret and you will thank me for suggesting you to do it earlier rather than later.... the good thing is you got none, you should buy the good quality one rather than owning many pieces of not so good one like I do besides the good one...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I don't understand what you mean by that I only have a short time to put drywall screw in.

If the lift holds it in place, can I not just put a screw into the drywall, by hand, no using a pilot hole?

I figure how difficult is it to put a screw into paper and gypsum?

So after I have put in a few to hold it in place, then I can do the rest?

Or am I just saying this because I have not yet tried it yet?

Can I buy a drywall bit to put in front of my drill? Would that work?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

The drywall lift will make the drywall very close to the position you want the drywall to be held at the ceiling or wall, but most of the time, not exactly the position, especially the wall, you still need to use your hand/body/leg to push the drywall to the final inch and then quickly screw the screw into the stud to held the drywall in place.

you cannot use drill to drive screw, it will burnt your drill at no time... and you end up waste money... you need high special screw driver with high torque and low rpm.


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## steel (Feb 20, 2007)

KUIPORNG said:


> you cannot use drill to drive screw, it will burnt your drill at no time... and you end up waste money... you need high special screw driver with high torque and low rpm.


 
I have never heard of this happening. Maybe for a contractor to constantly be using a drill in the wrong application daily, but for a job this size, the drill will be fine.

Yummy - I don't see why you would need to drill a pilot hole for drywall. The screws will drive right in. I would definately get a drywall bit or you will be blowing screws through the drywall all over the place.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

AtlanticWBConst, or others, can you give your opinion here: 

I don't think you can use hammer drill (for example) to drive screws, may be it is OK for a couple of them, but once you do that for more, you will burn it... because it just don't have the torque...

may be you mixed up with the cordless 18v, those many design to drive screw as they have swith to change torque (or gear)... internally... but this is unusual for corded hammer drill which Yummy Mummy is using... I think your advice will make her burnt her hammer drill and waste hundreds of dollars....

and the theory is very simple, would you drive a manual car to put the gear 5 speed and start it on a up hill (60 degree)... would you do that to your car even it can move a bit... sure you can go up a bit, you probably burn your engine sooner than later...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Kuiporng*

I don't know anything about burning drills, but if I put a drywall screw bit in front of my drill, would that not work, and how would I burn my drill that way?

I would be just putting in a drywall screw, slowly?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I understand what you mean about the lift only lifting it to the approximate area that you want. I know I will have to manouver the drywall into place, and that is where my husband comes in to help.

(He better, or else, I won't be very "yummy" :wink: )


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

it is not regard to your bit, it is the equipment, to drive in screws into wood, it require force... whether it turn slow or fast, it is still large turning force... hammer drill is no difference from a regular drill with the exception of hammering action (vertical)... a drill has a lot of power, but most these power is in the form of speed, not turning force... it is exactly like drive a manual car, you won't put in on speed 5 for low speed driving....

it doesn't mean you cannot drive in some screws with drill, but your drill will suddenly not moving and at that time you will know what I meant... I had that experience with a right angle drill before, try to use it to drive a screw at tight spot... and it was a goner...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

You are very knowledgeable in the area.
I am going to listen to you and not do that.
I thought that it would be OK to just attach a bit and away I go.

I think I am starting to think that I need to start looking for that Makita drywall screw drill. (or whatever it's called).


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

try hang one drywall with your husband holding it and some support... you will see ... another reason is drywall surface is so delicate and you want the screw and the drywall hole in good intact, hand drive will most likely weaken that part and your drywall will not hold as firm vs power drive...


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

*Makita Drywall Screwgun*

don't be tempt by buying a less cost regular power screw driver.... "Drywall Screwgun" can do what regular screw gun do but not the vice versa...

The ability of Drywall Screwgun able to set the depth automatically for you when hanging drywall, solve 90% of the drywall screwing challenge for you, as setting right depth is the most difficult job when screwing drywall screws... especially when you need to do that 2000 times... don't believe yourself you will have the patient to do it carefully...even you do... you will never done a as good job...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I was thinking that because drywall is so delicate and you don't want the screw to break the paper, then what better way to do that then to have complete control when you are screwing it in.

I guess, I should not be commenting because I have still not tried it.
You have much more experience than me when it comes to drywalling.

Hopefully, one of these days I will try.


Also, what size screws do you need for the 1/2 inch drywall?

I have some scrap drywall pieces that the contractors left behind, and I want to try to put one in.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Next time I go to HD, I will take a look at the drywall screw gun.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

*1 1/4" Screws*

If my memory is still good... is what I remember....

but it was the most common type and you saw them everywhere in HD....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I have seen the drywall screws but I did not know which length to use.

I saw different lengths.


Thanks for all your time and help kuiporng.
You are a great help to me, sharing your experiences


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

I have not been following your whole discussion on this page, but I caught the last 2 posts about drywall screws. For standard 1/2" sheetrock on wood framing - you want 1 1/4" course thread drywall screws. Depending on how many sheets you are going to install....I would suggest getting a 5 pound box to start off with ...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

If you are going to be using a 'drill' to install your screws to sheetrock, purchase a drywall 'bit' attachment. This will keep the screw head from sinking too far in and 'breaking' the paper surface....

The issue brought up about 'buring out' your drill revolves around this:

When you are driving the drywall screw in...it enters the sheetrock easily and then suddenly hits the wood framing which raises the torque (since it is denser material). So the concern is that if you are going to attach hundreds and hundreds of sheets of sheetrock, you will eventually burn the motor out because it was not designed to have that kind of stress put on it (The constant heavy torqing - 'on' and 'off' of the motor)
Analogy: It's like taking your car out to the highway, getting it up to 55 and then using the gear shift to drop it down to a lower gear, then putting it back in drive, getting it up to 55 again and dropping it down to a lower gear...again,.... & Doing this over, and over, and over... It would not be long before you would be kissing the transmission good bye.

I don't think that the amount of sheets that you will probably be installing in your basement (at the pace that you will be doing it) will put that much strain on your drill.

The big difference with screw guns is that they have a built in coupling that dissengages the drive shaft of the drill when it reaches a certain torque. This action, takes all the strain nad stress off of the motor. We have screw guns that are 10 years old that are still working fine. If we had drills that were put thru what those 10 year old screw guns were put thru...forget it, they would have been dead along time ago.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Atlantic, as usual, you provide an excellent explanation on how drills can be burned.

Considering that I will be going at a slow pace, would a drill bit suffice for my hammer drill?

I don't really want to burn the drill.
But I still have to try just doing it by hand. :laughing:


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Atlantic, as usual, you provide an excellent explanation on how drills can be burned.
> 
> Considering that I will be going at a slow pace, would a drill bit suffice for my hammer drill?
> 
> ...


 
Does your 'hammer drill' have a selector switch on it use it as a normal drill?


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## steel (Feb 20, 2007)

Sorry, I missed the part about it being a hammer drill. I don't know much about the hammer drills, just my every day corded cheap drill.

It sounds to me like you need a new drill. Whether or not you actually do need one is irrelevant. Who ever said you need a rock solid reason for going out and buying more tools? As far as I am concerned, I DO need 5 claw hammers.


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## digthisbigcrux (Feb 2, 2007)

Hey Yummy - that looks great! You sure are adding some major equity to your house.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Yes, Atlantic, it does have a dial for slow speed and one for fast and also a lever for screwing and one for when I need to use it as a hammer drill.


Thanks digthisbigcrux. Actually, the equity that I added really came approx. 3 years ago when I (the contractor, actually) totally gutted the bungalow and added a second addition. 
I bought the home, in 93 for $240,000.00.

If I had done nothing to it, I would have been able to sell it for
500,000.
But because of the new home I am now able to sell for over 1M.
(Mainly because of the location that I am located.)

Actually, by doing the basement, it really doesn't add much to the value.

More a labour of love for the kids.


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## digthisbigcrux (Feb 2, 2007)

yummy mummy said:


> Yes, Atlantic, it does have a dial for slow speed and one for fast and also a lever for screwing and one for when I need to use it as a hammer drill.
> 
> 
> Thanks digthisbigcrux. Actually, the equity that I added really came approx. 3 years ago when I (the contractor, actually) totally gutted the bungalow and added a second addition.
> ...


Holy cow. You should go pro.

And you might want to think again about how much equity you basement remod will add - any time you add finished square footage to a house you defacto increase the value A LOT.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*thanks digthisbigcrux*

I think my home is valuable because of the location.
But of course, if I don't sell it and cash in, it may as well be worth nothing.

I don't plan on selling and moving. I really like where I am living.

(I keep telling my kids that this is not their inheritance, it is my retirement.) :laughing:


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

digthisbigcrux,

When you do renovations that are less than code, you actually take away from the value. vbmenu_register("postmenu_36437", true);


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

Nice Work. Too bad about the water meter location. Do you have enough recptacles for future use? Also, whats with the plus strip next to the water heater?

Bob O. 84,Pa.15330


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## rb_in_va (Mar 10, 2007)

yummy mummy,
I can't believe you did all that work without a circular saw or a cordless drill! Not sure how much the drywall screwgun is, but my Dewalt 18V with a drywall attachment works great for drywall screws. I've had the drill for 10 years or so and it still works very well. Of course I'm not a contractor either.:thumbsup:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*bobelectric*

The plug strip next to the furnace is a temporary one put in as I did not have enough receptacles at that time, and have still not removed it, now that I have more receptacles.

Will be removing it. No longer need it there.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*rb in va*

Yes rb in va, I have done the work without a circular saw, (I have a compound saw for my 2X4s), and I have a hammer drill (electric) that I drill pilot holes with.

Not that difficult, (mind you it's been 5 months since I started framing and still not done) :laughing: .


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*bobelectric*

Yes, too bad about my water meter.
I plan to put something in front of it, ie. book shelf or some other creative way to hide it.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*beer geek*



beer_geek said:


> digthisbigcrux,
> 
> When you do renovations that are less than code, you actually take away from the value. vbmenu_register("postmenu_36437", true);


 
I Don't think so.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

yummy mummy said:


> I Don't think so.


Obviously, since that's what you've done. 

However, when you blatantly cut corners in a "$1M" home, it certainly can't help the value.

One other question, is the bottom plate on the right side of the second picture pressure treated?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*beer geek*



beer_geek said:


> Obviously, since that's what you've done.
> 
> However, when you blatantly cut corners in a "$1M" home, it certainly can't help the value.
> 
> One other question, is the bottom plate on the right side of the second picture pressure treated?


 

Yes, beer geek, all of my bottom plates are pressure treated. 


I really don't think that not adding more receptacles is "cutting corners".


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

What would you call doing less than the minimum required by code?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I guess we should all envy you for doing everything to code.

Some of us, fall short of perfection. 

(I better get my $1,000,000+ out now before my home is worth nothing).


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## bobelectric (Mar 3, 2007)

What if you do have to sell for whatever cause.Those Home Inspectors will zoom in on receptacle spacing and cause greif.Consider cost before boarding up V.after.

Bob O.84,Pa.15330


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## clasact (Oct 21, 2006)

very nice work cnat wait to see it when your done just hope that aint another 5 months but considering how time consuming drywall is it may take longer (lol) I would however take the advice and add a little support between


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## steel (Feb 20, 2007)

beer_geek said:


> What would you call doing less than the minimum required by code?


 
You should probably stop and think to yourself "Is it really worth it?" When was the last time you heard of someone passing on the sale of a home because the receptacles were spaced a wee bit too far apart?

You have had your say. We all get it. You space your outlets perfectly every time.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

steel said:


> You should probably stop and think to yourself "Is it really worth it?" When was the last time you heard of someone passing on the sale of a home because the receptacles were spaced a wee bit too far apart?
> 
> You have had your say. We all get it. You space your outlets perfectly every time.


 
When there is one thing that stands out like a sore thumb, it makes me wonder "what else did they do wrong?" From reading some of the posts here, it also looks like the soffits are framed wrong. What else can't we see?

You wouldn't pay for shoddy work, why would you do it yourself?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*beer geek*

Actually, beer geek, everything is wrong. :laughing: 

I will PM you and give you my address and you can come over and show me the right way of doing things (because I am certain that you always do that), and in exchange we can talk (I have a pysch. degree) and discuss what really is underlying your concern for my basement reno.

And, for you, I will even forgo the fee, (even though that is against what I normally do.)

You never know, after our chat, I may save you money. You may not even have to buy as much beer.


Yummy sends you hugs and kisses.


:wink: 

P.S. Will you send me a picture of your bar when it's done. I would love to see. 

(kiss, kiss)


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*clasact*

Yes, I will definitely add more support under the soffit. They are now spaced 24 inches apart, and I will add another support, in between that. I think that should make it stronger so that my drywall will not, hopefully, sag.

Thanks for your advice. 

Much appreciated.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

Now you're going to play amatuer psychologist. That's great. What's underlying? It's really quite simple. You posted pictures seeking affirmation. Some people, including myself have pointed out some things that are improperly done. Things that won't pass inspection. You are getting it inspected, right? You have the proper permits, right? 

Sorry I didn't give you what you need by pointing out potential problems. Isn't that what this place it about; providing people with information on the correct ways to do things?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Y.M. - I sent you a PM about this debate.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks Atlantic.


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Y.M. - I sent you a PM about this debate.


 
Why a private message? I would love to hear a pro's opinion on this subject.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> Why a private message? I would love to hear a pro's opinion on this subject.


 
Honestly...you guys seemed to be a little too ... 'publicly' ... harsh on her in trying to get your point across. 
....... I decided to try and use a little more 'discretion' when offering my '2 cents'....


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## beer_geek (Feb 19, 2007)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Honestly...you guys seemed to be a little too ... 'publicly' ... harsh on her in trying to get your point across.
> ....... I decided to try and use a little more 'discretion' when offering my '2 cents'....


 
It's a public thread on a public message board. Taking it offline does a disservice to everyone who is reading this thread.

Since your sig is "Build Well", I can only guess that you agree with the folks who think it's important to follow the codes. However, without confirmation, we'll never know.


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## gar (Mar 17, 2007)

As a contractor who has installed a lot of framing, insulation and poly in basements, it's easy to think the old way is the best way. But the current thinking among those who test this sort of thing is that there is no way you are going to prevent moisture from permeating subgrade concrete walls. Foundation waterproofing, Dry-Lok, etc all help, but vapor and, in some cases, liquid water will find it's way in from the outside. By installing the plastic sheet on top of the framing and insulation, you are in effect trapping that moisture in place. And materials that stay constantly damp will mold. 

The preferred method is to attach 3/4 - 1" extruded polystyrene directly to the masonry walls to prevent condensation from forming when warm, moist air hits the cold walls. Then, frame and insulate with unfaced batting. This way, we have controlled the liquid water which cannot pass through the XPS, but still allow vapor to pass through the drywall without being trapped and causing mildew and rot. 

The references you provided for vapor barriers do not apply to subgrade installations, which are a completely different can of worms. 

Remember, just because we've been doing something forever, doesn't mean it's right.

Gar out.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

gar said:


> As a contractor who has installed a lot of framing, insulation and poly in basements, it's easy to think the old way is the best way. But the current thinking among those who test this sort of thing is that there is no way you are going to prevent moisture from permeating subgrade concrete walls. Foundation waterproofing, Dry-Lok, etc all help, but vapor and, in some cases, liquid water will find it's way in from the outside. By installing the plastic sheet on top of the framing and insulation, you are in effect trapping that moisture in place. And materials that stay constantly damp will mold.
> 
> The preferred method is to attach 3/4 - 1" extruded polystyrene directly to the masonry walls to prevent condensation from forming when warm, moist air hits the cold walls. Then, frame and insulate with unfaced batting. This way, we have controlled the liquid water which cannot pass through the XPS, but still allow vapor to pass through the drywall without being trapped and causing mildew and rot.
> 
> ...


 
Huh? :huh: ??

...Talk about digging up a 'post'... hijack skeleton....:yawn:


:icon_rolleyes: There should be a seperate forum just to discuss this 'belly-button' topic ....and there the different opinion discussions should stay...


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## gar (Mar 17, 2007)

Sorry, the reply did seem out of left field. Well, maybe it will at least show up in a search.


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