# Freezer tripping GFCI



## davidclements

Dear Forum,

I have had a Kenmore freezer outside in sa partially protected area, plugged into a GFCI. Eventually it stopped working, which we attributed to exposure to outside dirt, and moved it inside. However, it turned out that the outside GFCI was broken, and tripped immediately anytime anything was plugged in. We have replaced the outdoor GFCI, which now works normally.

Now, in its new location, the freezer is plugged into a second GFCI switch. When we plug it in, it appears to operate normally for a short period of time (hours), then trips the GFCI. It has done this numerous times, and we have now unplugged it. I am quite sure that there is no connection to ground anywhere. The freezer is in a basement, elevated from the floor on a wooden pallet. 

My question is, what is more likely to be causing the problem: the freezer, the GFCI outlet, or (possibly) the fact that the freezer should not be plugged into a gfci outlet. Is it possible that whatever surges of demand would trigger a normally working gfci? Can plugging a freezer into a GFCI damage the GFCI, causing it to malfunction?

Thanks for your help.


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## MinConst

Plugging it into a GFCI should not damage the GFCI but a freezer should not be plugged into a GFCI. Not that it is causing the trip, it just isn't a good thing to do. You don't want your food to spoil because something else tripped the GFCI.


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## Docfletcher

Replace the GFCI with standard 20 amp 120v outlet. Then see if the problem goes away. I'd almost bet it will. GFCI's are know to be culpable for problems such as yours. :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906

I know this is an old thread, but I feel compelled to respond to such bad advice.

GFCIs do not trip for no reason. I would strongly suspect a fault in the freezer, especially if it spent time outside.

A high impedance fault can allow enough current through to kill someone, but not trip a breaker. This is the whole point of GFCIs.

There is at least one known case of an electrocution from the frame of a freezer.

I cannot believe that people place the value of food over the value of their family's lives. This was hotly debated during the 2008 National Electric Code process, and the NEC continues to tighten up the GFCI requirements. If a paticular appliance trips a GFCI, CHECK THE APPLIANCE OUT!!!


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## chris75

JohnJ0906 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I feel compelled to respond to such bad advice.
> 
> GFCIs do not trip for no reason. I would strongly suspect a fault in the freezer, especially if it spent time outside.
> 
> A high impedance fault can allow enough current through to kill someone, but not trip a breaker. This is the whole point of GFCIs.
> 
> There is at least one known case of an electrocution from the frame of a freezer.
> 
> I cannot believe that people place the value of food over the value of their family's lives. This was hotly debated during the 2008 National Electric Code process, and the NEC continues to tighten up the GFCI requirements. If a paticular appliance trips a GFCI, CHECK THE APPLIANCE OUT!!!



Just to add my own 2 cents, For an appliance to trip a GFCI, leakage current would have to increase* 8 to 12 times* the permitted leakage current of the appliance. just something to really think about...


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## Docfletcher

Respectfully, I stand by the solution I submitted. GFI 's should not be used for refrigerators or freezers. Many manufacturers state outright that GFI 's are not to be used. Now I never asked why but I suspect it is because the high initial current draw when the compressor kicks in it causes a slight imbalance between the neutral and live conductor, thus tripping the GFI. This is especially true in older models.

Some manufacturers simply state the refrigerator should be on a time delay circuit breaker circuit. None come out and say to use a GFI.

The only exception is commercial kitchen refrigerators and freezers in food prep areas, they are required and designed to be on GFI's. To further support my argument I'd like to offer the following information readily available on the internet...

ARTIC AiIR states in their specification for refrigerator R22CW that GFI's are not allowed.

Intelectric is yet another source stating not to use them, a quote follows.

*Intelectric, Inc. *
3718 Overland Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90034
310.838.5486 voice
310.838.5773 fax


*Refrigerator Power*

If the power goes out to your refrigerator or freezer you need to fix it fast! Here are two tips to help you quickly restore power:


If your refrigerator is plugged into a GFI receptacle, you can re-set the GFI and see if you now have power. If this works, that's great! Now that it's working again you should make arrangements to replace the GFI with a regular receptacle as soon as possible.

Refrigerators should never be plugged into a GFI receptacle because GFIs are very sensitive, and you don't want to be on vacation and lose power to your refrigerator just because the GFI accidentally shut off. So if your refrigerator is plugged into a GFI receptacle, you should replace the GFI with a regular receptacle.
If you can't restore power to the receptacle that your refrigerator is plugged into, you should call an electrician who is good at troubleshooting to locate and fix the problem. But while you're waiting for the electrician to arrive, you can plug the refrigerator into a heavy-duty extension cord and plug it in to a receptacle that has power.

This will keep your food cold and safe until your electrician arrives. :huh:


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## chris75

Docfletcher said:


> Respectfully, I stand by the solution I submitted. GFI 's should not be used for refrigerators or freezers. Many manufacturers state outright that GFI 's are not to be used.


You dont understand how a GFCI works do you? Did you read my post above? If the Appliace is leaking current, it could kill someone, what part of that does not make sense? A GFCI should be mandatory if nothing else. 



Docfletcher said:


> Now I never asked why but I suspect it is because the high initial current draw when the compressor kicks in it causes a slight imbalance between the neutral and live conductor, thus tripping the GFI. This is especially true in older models.


Impossible, current does not magically disappear into the air. what goes IN must come OUT. 




Docfletcher said:


> Some manufacturers simply state the refrigerator should be on a time delay circuit breaker circuit. None come out and say to use a GFI.


Its the NEC's job to specify GFCI protection, and face it, the 2008 is getting pretty strict on GFCI requirements, soon it will be pretty much required everywhere, what are you going to do then? 



Docfletcher said:


> The only exception is commercial kitchen refrigerators and freezers in food prep areas, they are required and designed to be on GFI's. To further support my argument I'd like to offer the following information readily available on the internet...


Every receptacle in a commerical kitcher requires GFCI protection, You want to tell me why you think that is? Gee, is it for personal protection from appliances leaking current? 





Docfletcher said:


> ARTIC AiIR states in their specification for refrigerator R22CW that GFI's are not allowed.
> 
> Intelectric is yet another source stating not to use them, a quote follows.
> 
> *Intelectric, Inc. *
> 3718 Overland Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90034
> 310.838.5486 voice
> 310.838.5773 fax
> 
> 
> *Refrigerator Power*
> 
> If the power goes out to your refrigerator or freezer you need to fix it fast! Here are two tips to help you quickly restore power:
> 
> 
> If your refrigerator is plugged into a GFI receptacle, you can re-set the GFI and see if you now have power. If this works, that's great! Now that it's working again you should make arrangements to replace the GFI with a regular receptacle as soon as possible.
> 
> Refrigerators should never be plugged into a GFI receptacle because GFIs are very sensitive, and you don't want to be on vacation and lose power to your refrigerator just because the GFI accidentally shut off. So if your refrigerator is plugged into a GFI receptacle, you should replace the GFI with a regular receptacle.
> If you can't restore power to the receptacle that your refrigerator is plugged into, you should call an electrician who is good at troubleshooting to locate and fix the problem. But while you're waiting for the electrician to arrive, you can plug the refrigerator into a heavy-duty extension cord and plug it in to a receptacle that has power.
> 
> This will keep your food cold and safe until your electrician arrives. :huh:



Thats nice, too bad if that fridge is in an area that requires GFCI protection, you cannot just change it to a regular receptacle.


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## Docfletcher

Gfi are required in commercial kitchens due to the constant wet environment .
Much more so than a residential setting.

As the GFCI monitors current flowing from hot to neutral it looks for a imbalance in current between the two points. Due to the sensitive nature of GFI's even a slight imbalance (or mismatch) of 4 or 5 milliamps will trip the GFI. The GFI is more suited to locations which can be wet, like counter tops, where your toaster and blender type appliances are located. 
I'd be interested to see which states and towns now require GFI's for refrigerators and which are planing to require them.

I'd also like to see the statistics for electrocution by refrigerators. :laughing:

s


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## chris75

Docfletcher said:


> Gfi are required in commercial kitchens due to the constant wet environment .
> Much more so than a residential setting.


That is incorrect my friend. Its because employees have been electrocuted in the workplace due to equipment failure. frayed cords, etc... 




Docfletcher said:


> As the GFCI monitors current flowing from hot to neutral it looks for a imbalance in current between the two points. Due to the sensitive nature of GFI's even a slight imbalance (or mismatch) of 4 or 5 milliamps will trip the GFI.


ANd you dont have a problem with this mismatch? You feel that its safe for current to flow wherever? 

What sensitive nature are you talking about, 4-5 milliamps is 8-12 times more current then a product is permitted, If its tripping a GFCI the appliance has a SERIOUS problem. 



Docfletcher said:


> The GFI is more suited to locations which can be wet, like counter tops, where your toaster and blender type appliances are located.


Is this your opinion or fact? 



Docfletcher said:


> I'd be interested to see which states and towns now require GFI's for refrigerators and which are planing to require them.


Its all in the location of the fridge, not the fridge itself, read up on 210.8 of the NEC.


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## Docfletcher

Suitability was in part opinion, based on factual readings at various periods of time. Since I am not in the trade I spend little time dwelling on such matters. I refer you back to NEC 210-8(6)...  Residential refer's are not required to be GFIC protected only rec. serving counter top spaces.NEC 210-8(6)

My argument is well supported in more than several locations on the internet. 

Such a mismatch with regard to current in refrigerators is common and as such I have no problem with it. Thats why GFI's trip so often in refrigerators and freezers, and thats why most sources tell you not to use them. 

You said your piece and I said mine. Which reminds of a saying. :laughing:

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. :yes:


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## chris75

Docfletcher said:


> Such a mismatch with regard to current in refrigerators is common and as such I have no problem with it. Thats why GFI's trip so often in refrigerators and freezers, and thats why most sources tell you not to use them.


What ever you wanna believe. just keep it to yourself and stop misleading people into believing GFCI's are not allowed to supply a fridge.


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## Docfletcher

Never said that!!! Only quoted what Artic Air said in their fridge/freezer spec sheet.

Only quoted NEC-8 (6) which you may want to study further...

Says not required! Did you notice ?

 Residential refer's are not required to be GFIC protected only rec. serving counter top spaces.NEC 210-8(6)

Good bye, and good fortune to you sir. :yes:


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## Stubbie

That's absolutely correct... it is not required ... however you are absolutely incorrect in stating that it is the fault of the gfci if a refrigerator is tripping it. Telling people to remove the gfci protection or move the appliance to a non-gfci receptacle is pure and simple ridiculous and irresponsible. The gfci is tripping because of a fault with the refrigerator. Sorry facts hurt sometimes but your fairytales and myths need to be exposed so that people don't follow such dangerous advice. 



> Due to the sensitive nature of GFI's even a slight imbalance (or mismatch) of 4 or 5 milliamps will trip the GFI.


Thank goodness cause that is right at touch potential and is very close to fatal amperage. But heck it is alright if the appliance leaks this to ground and fools the gfci into tripping....jeez fella. 




> Originally Posted by *Docfletcher*
> Gfi are required in commercial kitchens due to the constant wet environment .
> Much more so than a residential setting


Thats funny... because the r22cw you said the manufacturing company said gfci's are not allowed....is a commercial refrigerator...so to use the laughing icon....:laughing: I wonder how they got their UL listing if they are not allowed on gfci due to leakage tripping of gfci's....hmmm :whistling2:

And again whats is with the wet environment thing, hard to put much faith in someone that cannot make an accurate statement.

BTW you didn't provide any links to the manufacturers you said wrote that BS about gfci's, in my opinion that was all make believe.. by you. As there aren't many technical writers that would use that type language....after all you presented it as a qoute. If I read that in a manual for the appliance I would run like hell.

As for the deaths due to electrocution from refrigerators here is a little article from the consumer products commission, please note table 2. also note this is the statistical results from 1997 updated in 2000. Also note that the deaths are decreasing for *large* appliances. And note again that the nfpa research attributes this to increased use of gfci's. Go over to the nfpa and give it a look. Might be interesting to read something factual for a change. 

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/shock97.pdf

For those reading this thread I hope that they consider what has been said and can separate the foolish rhetoric mentioned here from what is real. So I urgently request to readers of this thread that if they have a gfci tripping on a refrigerator.. remove it from service until you can have it properly inspected for electrical fault to the frame. These appliances have large surface areas of metal and increased potential for electrical shock if grounded faults occur. Never consider that the gfci is the cause for a trip out due to an appliance motor.


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## Docfletcher

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/GFI-installation-4.htm

Heres a bunch of residential refrigerator manufacturers that do not recommend their refrigerators on GFI outlets... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

ttp://www.applianceaid.com/gfi_plugs.html

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2008/03/28/using-gfci-outlets-with-appliances/

http://www.intelectric.net/tips.html Paragraph 1, under refrigerator power.

It's all right out there on the internet. Not just the examples I give, but pages and pages of " Do not use GFI with refrigerator " . I don't see any support for the use of the GFI. 

Just so you know I believe the 2008 code requires GFI on refrigerators. We will see if a rash of issues with them occors.

http://easydiyelectricity.com/?p=490 A good read.


I never meant to imply it is the GFI's fault. To clarify it is the refrigerator which causes the GFI to trip. But that does not necessarily mean their is a problem with the fridge. One should have it checked out after the GFI trips and if it is then proven there is no electical issue with with the fridge... Remove the GFI and install a standard outlet. Like most people all over these united states have.


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## chris75

Docfletcher said:


> http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/GFI-installation-4.htm
> 
> Heres a bunch of residential refrigerator manufacturers that do not recommend their refrigerators on GFI outlets... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> ttp://www.applianceaid.com/gfi_plugs.html
> 
> http://fixitnow.com/wp/2008/03/28/using-gfci-outlets-with-appliances/
> 
> http://www.intelectric.net/tips.html Paragraph 1, under refrigerator power.
> 
> It's all right out there on the internet. Not just the examples I give, but pages and pages of " Do not use GFI with refrigerator " . I don't see any support for the use of the GFI.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so you know I believe the 2008 code requires GFI on refrigerators. We will see if a rash of issues with them occors.
> 
> http://easydiyelectricity.com/?p=490 A good read.


No one is saying a GFCI is required for every refrigerator, only where the NEC requires them, you obvioulsly have don't understand how a GFCI works and the dangers of a fridge or freezer that trips a gfci, so let it go, do what you want in your home, but do not post your nonsense here.


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## Docfletcher

The first link at all experts touches on the the subject of why the fridge can and does trip the gfi without their being any problem with the fridge. 

Garage door openers are going to have problems with the new GFI code as well.

Anyway I'm of the same opinion as countless others out on the net. Their "nonsense" is far more widespread and pervasive then mine.


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## Stubbie

> Many manufacturers state outright that GFI 's are not to be used.


What manufacturers?? None of those links are makers of refrigerators:no: 



> It's all right out there on the internet. Not just the examples I give, but pages and pages of " Do not use GFI with refrigerator " . I don't see any support for the use of the GFI.


*You* don't see it because your relying on the easy way out and you want to believe the gfci conspiracy theory as I like to call it.

Fixitnow makes a terrible mistatement of why your protected with a 3 wire receptacle for over current and therefore gfci is unnecessary for a refrigerator. 

Bob Osgood over on all experts is an excellent electrician however he made a opinion why the gfci tripped and his imbalance theory on compressor start up causing a gfci to trip is not accurate, if you talk to Bob now about that thread you will get a different answer. Did you notice the new gfci that guy installed wouldn't even reset with that fridge plugged into it...:thumbsup: as a side you will find that most of the electrical forum moderators no longer support the gfci nuisance trip theory anymore when it comes to large appliance.

That last link to that small electric company is nothing but a laugh. Sorry but that is pitiful writing and grossly inaccurate. 

To put this to rest your free to believe what others tell you, I would suggest you get yourself educated on the subject.... And I have never seen a manufacturer discuss gfci in their product literature. There is really no reason to because ul (ul 250) requires them to operate on gfci. In fact ul recently proposed with the NEC being in hand to require integral gfci on refrigerators. You will hear more about this in 2011's code cycle..

Now in your defense as early as 1995 there was a nuisance tripping problem with motor/compressors on gfci branch circuits. And the nec did exclude refrigerators (in the kitchen) from gfci because of this.....no longer. The typical requirements placed on manufactures by UL for minumum current leakage was not compatible with gfci technology of that era. Things have changed since those days but the damage to the reputation of gfci's tripping on refrigerators and freezers is still widespread today.

So I would like you to consider that you may be in error by todays standards or living in a bygone era entertaining old school thoughts about gfci nuisance tripping. There are many thousands of freezers and fridges on gfci protected circuits that are operating just fine.


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## Docfletcher

Your post is well written. I will eat some crow, but not all of it. In my reply to the posters question I stated that GFI's were known to trip when used with refrigerators. Which is true as far as it goes. I should have qualified the statement further by stating "older refrigerators" of the 1995 vintage. I was not aware the new refrigerator lines
were made more compatible for GFI use.

I called GE and posed the question... GE rep said GFI's are OK with their current refrigerator product line.


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## Stubbie

And I will apologize for being so rudely outspoken in the beginning of my replies. Occasionally I get a button pushed that I have difficulty in being quiet... I need to work on that.....:wink:

I'm going to provide a link for you to see and read that is from an authority that has the inside scoop on most things electrical...notice the article is dated 1995. Also remember that manufacturers have a personal agenda and ain't real keen to having to spend money to improve the safety of their products. Usually an outside source has to sorta make it a requirement or them to do so.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_think_gfci/

We have been arguing and should have been discussing....:thumbsup:

The article (by my choice) was written in 1995 and gives the overall about gfci's as they new them then. About half way through is a section about gfci's and refrigerators and that the NEC does not require them due to older units causing nuisance tripping and to route gfci protection around these types of appliances. This makes sense because they (the NEC) have no control over the age of the unit being used.... no more than they have control of it today. 

However as fewer and fewer of these older units leave service it becomes more important to pay closer attention to the _real _cause when a gfci trips when an appliance is plugged into it.

And I'm also eating a little crow myself for not approaching this subject in a more professional manner...have a good day Doc....

EDIT...And by the way the nuisance tripping by refrigerators and freezers normally occurs during their defrost cycles and is the result of poor motor insulation allowing capacitive current leakage to the frame of the unit. Very typical in older units. The very common belief that motor start up and inrush currents related to that are inaccurate for the actual cause of a gfci tripping. Current in wires stays in wires unless some type of capacitive coupling takes affect with nearby metal.


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## Docfletcher

Stubie, I read the article pretty much start to finish. It was very informative. Thanks for putting it up.


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## JohnJ0906

One of the intents behind the removal of some of the GFCI exceptions pertaining to fridges, is to remove the old units from service.
Just because it still gets cold, doesn't mean it is in good shape.
Also, the UL standards have changed.

A fridge or freezer that meets the UL standard will not trip the GFCI, unless/until there is ground leakage. The max permitted is .75 milliamp. It takes 4 to 6 milliamps to trip a GFCI.



National Electric Code said:


> NEC 90.1(A) The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.


The words "if it is convenient" don't appear in the above article.


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## oniondip1

Hello everyone, I have a question about this topic. I bought a small chest freezer today, brand new, it's a Frigidaire. The instructions state "Receptacles protected by Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) are NOT RECOMMENDED." The instructions were printed in 2006 (date on front cover).

I am an electrical novice, so I don't really know how to read this. I have it plugged in to a GFCI outlet in the basement now (I don't currently have an outlet without GFCI). I would hate to spoil food with a tripped GFCI, but I would much rather avoid killing myself or one of my kids by touching an appliance with a ground fault. Why does a new appliance still have this in the instructions? Should I wire a dedicated receptacle (non-GFCI)? I really don't want to run new wire, and I want to have as safe an electrical setup as possible.

Thanks in advance for your replies.


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## Macadactyl

Please tell me this thread is still alive.

I've searched high and low for an answer to my problem and this thread seems to be the answer I was looking for.

I have a kegerator manufactured in 1998 that I just bought off of a restaurant replacing it. I plugged into into my garage's GFI receptacle and it tripped it. I ran an extension cord inside to a regular outlet and it ran fine. I did not know it had the possibility to kill me before reading this post so I have touched the kegerator and lived (to this point). My father-in-law is a construction contractor (not an electrician) and he gave the same advice as 1 of the posters of the thread to just replace the outlet with a regular receptacle because "GFI's are notoriously over-sensitive." 

After reading this thread I realize I don't want to do this, but I found a different solution and now I want to know if this is also dangerous.

I put a cheap $8 surge protector between the kegerator and the outlet and it no longer trips the GFI. Is this a safe solution?


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## Docfletcher

I probably catch flak for this reply. In a perfect world everyone would bring everything up to the latest code. Of all the (who knows how many) homes in our great land very few people are running out to buy GFI's to hook up their refrigerators. 

Your used restaurant fridge is older and may not be made to the standards with regard to not tripping GFI devices. As I have been told on this board older 1995 era fridges do trip GFI devices. This could well be the case with your fridge.

I say have the fridge checked out by a licensed electrician. If it gets a clean bill of health hook it up to a standard outlet. Preferably a dedicated one. 

Safety is important, but so is common sense. We all want to keep safe. Most people die from causes other than refrigerators. Since yours is used and older as well it would be very prudent to have it checked out.


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## sv9779

"What ever you wanna believe. just keep it to yourself and stop misleading people into believing GFCI's are not allowed to supply a fridge"

When you talk to any fridg manufacturer the first thing they'll tell you is get the fridg off the GFI. That's why in any new kitchen you'll see a dedicated circuit behind the fridg that is not on a GFI with the rest of the kitchen.


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## chris75

Macadactyl said:


> I have a kegerator manufactured in 1998 that I just bought off of a restaurant replacing it. I plugged into into my garage's GFI receptacle and it tripped it.


Sounds like a bad unit, I personally would megger it and that will tell you if the unit is good or bad.



Macadactyl said:


> I ran an extension cord inside to a regular outlet and it ran fine.


Of course it will, a normal receptacle will not detect a current imbalance




Macadactyl said:


> I did not know it had the possibility to kill me before reading this post so I have touched the kegerator and lived (to this point). My father-in-law is a construction contractor (not an electrician) and he gave the same advice as 1 of the posters of the thread to just replace the outlet with a regular receptacle because "GFI's are notoriously over-sensitive."


Are you really going to listen to your father-in-law? First off, you cannot by code replace the gfci with a regular receptacle, 2nd, gfci's are NOT notoriously over-sensitive, the average joe just does not understand how they work and why they trip. 



Macadactyl said:


> After reading this thread I realize I don't want to do this, but I found a different solution and now I want to know if this is also dangerous.
> 
> I put a cheap $8 surge protector between the kegerator and the outlet and it no longer trips the GFI. Is this a safe solution?


 
So you plugged a surge protector into a gfci receptacle? If so then your good to go.


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## gregzoll

I have no problems with the GFCI that my Garage Door opener is connected to, but then again 99% of the time, only thing hooked to that circuit (20amp with 20amp GCFI) is the opener. Other times during summer it is the XM unit, but the door stays open.


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## bobelectric

Docfletcher said:


> Gfi are required in commercial kitchens due to the constant wet environment .
> Much more so than a residential setting.
> 
> As the GFCI monitors current flowing from hot to neutral it looks for a imbalance in current between the two points. Due to the sensitive nature of GFI's even a slight imbalance (or mismatch) of 4 or 5 milliamps will trip the GFI. The GFI is more suited to locations which can be wet, like counter tops, where your toaster and blender type appliances are located.
> I'd be interested to see which states and towns now require GFI's for refrigerators and which are planing to require them.
> 
> I'd also like to see the statistics for electrocution by refrigerators. :laughing:
> 
> s


I did a service call in an apartment unit,"get a shock when I touch fridge and water at sink." Fridge compressor leaking to ground.Two wire system, installed g.f.c.i. receptacle,told landlord of my quick fix to protect tentant untill you buy a new appliance.G.f.c.i. tripped ,food thawed out overnight, Guess who is the J.O. ?


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## boman47k

Don't mind me folks. I just kind of pop in heref rom time to time, and I find this an interesting thread.

For the electricians. Can a surge in power to the start windings in a motor not cause an imbalance and throw the GFCI? I know compressors take a pretty good jolt to start especially when they get a little age on them. What, about 3 times or more the normal amperage required to run the compressor?

What happens with the GFCI if one of the windings are bad. Start or run windings? What about a weak capacitor on some motors. Will it just burn completely, or will it trip a breaker before the it trips the GFCI?

If you ohm a fridge out looking for a leak after discharging the parts that need discharging, to you ohm the compressor then the timer leads, or do you ohm all the stats and defrost heater element, fan motor, etc.?

I haven't given this subject any thought in a long time.


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## Leah Frances

Docfletcher said:


> One should have it checked out after the GFI trips and if it is then proven there is no electical issue with with the fridge... Remove the GFI and install a standard outlet. Like most people all over these united states have.


I'm MOST PEOPLE and I have my upright freezer plugged into a GFCI rec. 

Sure, the NEC does not _require_ GFCI for a receptacle on a *dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance*,* such as a refrigerator or freezer*. 

BUT I did not get the feeling that is what the OP was talking about. 

BTW, when I moved into my new-old house the previous owner left a fridge in the basement, the door handle was energized. This led to a... wait for it.. shocking situation. 

I don't know where I read it, but: "Meat that is already dead needs less protection than Meat that is still alive."

Leah - just call me Live Meat - Frances


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## piraqadam

I am no expert, though I have dabbled in home repair projects from time to time. I seem to feel that there is a common sense middle ground. 

First of all, I do believe that there is a real danger that can be caused from large appliances with ground faults. So I agree that simply changing out a gfi with a standard receptacle may be an issue IF the problem is a ground fault.

However, the other side (pro GFI) states that a ground fault MUST be the problem and so it is NEVER OK to switch out the outlets. If this is the case, if the ONLY reason GFI's trip is because of a malfunction in the appliance plugged into them, then why aren't they required code for THROUGHOUT the home? I know from experience that if you plug a vacuum into a GFI it may trip.

So taking into consideration both sides, wouldn't the best course of action be to check out the fridge or freezer to make sure it isn't "live"? Then if it checks out, it would be safe to plug into a standard receptacle? 

This seems like a logical and safe solution to me? If this is a good way to proceed, then my question would be how do you check out the fridge or freezer to see if it had a ground fault? 

Thanks!


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## sv9779

Seems to me I read that some refrigerators would bleed voltage during the defrost cycle causing a ground fault to trip. 
If the ground fault trips while your on vacation for 2 weeks you'll come home to a real mess. That's the biggest reason to keep them off of ground faults


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## piraqadam

SV9779, I think that makes perfect sense.


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## mtbdudex

This happened 2 years ago, but relevant to this thread.
My refrigerator fan was fried in a brown out. I ordered a service replacement part. Compare the 2 sitting on the table they look different but the service was guaranteed to perform same as OE part.
OE is LH part (went bad), service is RH part.
















Upon re-installation in the freezer section (fan is in freezer, it blows cold air into the fridge portion), I noticed the service part has exposed 120 VAC plugs just above the coils. The OE part used a more expensive sealed connection system. Is there a difference? Under 99% of time, no. However when there is another failure in the fridge system and ice forms on those coils a short to ice could exists and possible electrocution could happen. I filed a claim for this as data point to CPSP. 
GFCI would catch this.


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## Handy Not

To GFI or Not To GFI.....that is my question. After reading the posts (dating back to 2007, I might add), I'm still a bit confused. We have a freezer in the garage that is closest to a GFI outlet...but not close enough. We currently have a 1150 Joulies, 15A/125W surge protector plugged into the GFI and the freezer plugged into the surge protector. This was the best solution that the guy at Lowes could come up with (outside of hiring an electrician to install a new non-GFI outlet next to the freezer). I'd like to know my risks, if any, and if anyone can offer up a better solution. PLEASE give it to me at about a Kindergarten level......


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## racebum

no fridge / freezer should be ran on a gfi, they trip them from time to time and the biggest risk is just your food going bad.


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## Handy Not

Thank you, Racebum. That helps. I'm ok if that's the worst risk I'm taking...as I am in the freezer at least once a day and we're in and out of the garage. I was more concerned about frying the freezer (literally), frying myself, or frying the electrical system in my walls. So, if spoiled food is the only issue....we're good.


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## dontkd

*Freezer keeps tripping the GFI*

The issue below is exactly what has happened to my freezer. We defrosted it and now when we plug it in it trips the GFI..It is about 14 years old kennmore. What can I do to resove this issue. It has worked with no problem up to the defrost ..

"And by the way the nuisance tripping by refrigerators and freezers normally occurs during their defrost cycles and is the result of poor motor insulation allowing capacitive current leakage to the frame of the unit. Very typical in older units."


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## kenmac

plug it into a non gfci outlet. I have an older freezer that I ran a non gfci circuit / outlet for


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## HVAC_NW

Most houses already have the fridge outlet on the same circuit as the one serving kitchen counters. Don't they have to be GFCI'd by code?



dontkd said:


> The issue below is exactly what has happened to my freezer. W*e defrosted it and now when we plug it in it trips the GFI*..It is about 14 years old kennmore. What can I do to resove this issue. *It has worked with no problem up to the defrost ..*
> 
> "And by the way the nuisance tripping by refrigerators and freezers normally occurs during their defrost cycles and is the result of poor motor insulation allowing capacitive current leakage to the frame of the unit. Very typical in older units."


Then, it would appear that water got into power carrying wires, then leaking into ground through wet insulation. If you were to plug that thing into a non-grounded outlet, you will get shocked when you touch it. If it's not the inductive kick from compressor turning on/off occasionally tripping, you've got a legitimate leak. Unplug the thing. 

Take DMM and measure the reasistance between the case/ground prong and the hot. It should be close to infinity.


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## kenmac

some appliances will cause a gfci to trip. A small arc at the fan will trip these. Had a fart fan that used a wire off gfci. When the fan was turned off it would trip the gfci. I ran a new wire & haven't had any problems


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## xrlclarkx

*Freezer tripping gfci outlet*

My friend recently moved and had to put his freezer in the garage at the new location (no other option). The garage outlets are gfci protected as the State electrical code requires. His freezer ran fine for a day then tripped the gfci. He asked me for help--here is what I found: The freezer ran fine until the timer turned on the defrost heater (which it does for each 12 hours of compressor run time). I removed the panel covering components inside the freezer to expose the defroster heater and removed it. This heater was a calrod type unit. Resistance readings revealed: end to end resistance within specifications. BUT measuring inside conductor to outside metal revealed a 50k ohm reading. Quick calculation told me that the leak current would be in the 25 milliamp range (more than enough to trip the gfci). A new heating element with infinite resistance (inside to outside metal) fixed the problem. My theory is that internal insulation can deterioate over time (numerous on-off cycles) or moisture might invade some heaters as seals fail on the defrost heaters causing a similar ground fault which trips the gfci.
You might disconnect the supply wire to the defroster temporarily to verify a defroster ground fault if you have similar problems.


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## cbandler

*Nice to find others with similar issues...*

I have a 'new' Frigidaire upright freezer in my garage. New construction home, plugged in to a GFCI on a dedicated 15A circuit. GFCI trips once/day. 

Frigidaire said they can send a tech but will charge me for the visit due to 'improper installation' since they say in the manual to not use extension cords and DO NOT PLUG INTO GFI outlets.

Talking to a Sears tech, they think it's the defroster that kicks on about once/day and can cause a 10%+ swing in the load which could easily trip the GFCI.

Even though it is in the garage, and would be non-compliant with NEC to use a non-GFCI...should I put a standard outlet?

I've read (here and elsewhere) about GFCI breaker. Is that the fix...standard outlet and GFCI breaker?


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## Syberia

If a GFCI outlet trips, any regular outlet on a GFCI breaker will also trip. There is still a GFCI in the circuit, all you would be changing is where it is located.

Sent from my Tricorder using Tapatalk


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## cbandler

Thanks. That is what I was thinking...just pushing the GFCI down stream won't change anything.

Guess it's standard outlet time for me.


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## Oso954

> Talking to a Sears tech, they think it's the defroster that kicks on about once/day and can cause a 10%+ swing in the load which could easily trip the GFCI.


He may have said that, but he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Load swings don't matter to a GFCI, unbalanced current (between hot and neutral) does. So, where is the unbalanced current coming from?

Properly working refrigerators that are less than 20 years old, should not trip a properly working GFCI. One or the other needs to be replaced (or repaired).


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## rjniles

cbandler said:


> I have a 'new' Frigidaire upright freezer in my garage. New construction home, plugged in to a GFCI on a dedicated 15A circuit. GFCI trips once/day.
> 
> Frigidaire said they can send a tech but will charge me for the visit due to 'improper installation' since they say in the manual to not use extension cords and DO NOT PLUG INTO GFI outlets.
> 
> Talking to a Sears tech, they think it's the defroster that kicks on about once/day and can cause a 10%+ swing in the load which could easily trip the GFCI.
> 
> Even though it is in the garage, and would be non-compliant with NEC to use a non-GFCI...should I put a standard outlet?
> 
> I've read (here and elsewhere) about GFCI breaker. Is that the fix...standard outlet and GFCI breaker?


Replace the GFCI receptacle with the chance that it is defective. If it still trips the freezer is defective.


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## sparky90

I am writing this from the beyond. I GFI'ed my un GFI'ed fridge circuit but I was electrocuted by my un GFI'ed dishwasher.:laughing:


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## cbandler

Just spoke to yet another technician. According to this one, the appliances (refrigerator and freezer) are designed in such a manner that when the compressor kicks on, there is a momentary voltage to ground condition caused by a relay. This is the design and part of the reason they state not to run residential units on GFCI. When asked why any electrical device/appliance would be designed to knowingly create a 'short circuit' condition, he replied that he didn't know and was only telling me what the manufacturers tell them at repair school.

So fed up. They sell these things knowing many are headed straight to garage and that current NEC doesn't allow for non-GFCI. What a crock of BS.

My personal solution is to put a standard outlet on the circuit. I now sit and wait for the code/hazard police to reply that I'm going to kill someone with my properly operating appliance. :gunsmilie:


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## cbandler

rjniles said:


> Replace the GFCI receptacle with the chance that it is defective. If it still trips the freezer is defective.


Did that, and GFCI still trips. Freezer is not defective. In fact, read my other post about this being a normal condition. :whistling2:


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## cbandler

Oso954 said:


> He may have said that, but he doesn't know what he is talking about.
> 
> Load swings don't matter to a GFCI, unbalanced current (between hot and neutral) does. So, where is the unbalanced current coming from?
> 
> Properly working refrigerators that are less than 20 years old, should not trip a properly working GFCI. One or the other needs to be replaced (or repaired).


So he was wrong about the 'load swing'. It's 110V to ground when the relay closes for a split second, which trips the GFCI. This is a normal condition for the appliance and the reason they state in the manual not to use on a GFCI.

It's less than 20 years old, and working properly. Guess who is wrong


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## AandPDan

cbandler said:


> So he was wrong about the 'load swing'. It's 110V to ground when the relay closes for a split second, which trips the GFCI. This is a normal condition for the appliance and the reason they state in the manual not to use on a GFCI.
> 
> It's less than 20 years old, and working properly. Guess who is wrong


Your technician is either a bold faced liar, an idiot, or both.

GFCI's don't trip on a short or overload. That's what a circuit breaker is for.


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## rjniles

cbandler said:


> Did that, and GFCI still trips. Freezer is not defective. In fact, read my other post about this being a normal condition. :whistling2:


Sorry but you are wrong. If a appliance trips a properly working GFCI, it i s defective.


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## cbandler

rjniles said:


> Sorry but you are wrong. If a appliance trips a properly working GFCI, it i s defective.


I'm not the one stating this. It's the manufacturer, Sears Tech, and another independent tech. It's the reason they state right on the owner's manual that you are not to plug them in to a GFI/GFCI.


I'll trust them over 'experts' on the internet. Thanks for the advice, all.

Enjoy the continued debate.


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## AandPDan

The ground on the freezer should only be conducting fault current. There should be no current on a properly designed installation.

To clarify my last post, GFCI's may trip with a hot-ground short due to an imbalance in the hot-neutral current. They won't trip on an overload. A circuit breaker is designed to do protect from both conditions.


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## cbandler

AandPDan said:


> The ground on the freezer should only be conducting fault current. There should be no current on a properly designed installation.
> 
> To clarify my last post, GFCI's may trip with a hot-ground short due to an imbalance in the hot-neutral current. They won't trip on an overload. A circuit breaker is designed to do protect from both conditions.


I may/may not be properly wording exactly what they said as I paraphrase. Long and short is they said it's normal condition.:thumbsup:


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## rjniles

cbandler said:


> I'm not the one stating this. It's the manufacturer, Sears Tech, and another independent tech. It's the reason they state right on the owner's manual that you are not to plug them in to a GFI/GFCI.
> 
> 
> I'll trust them over 'experts' on the internet. Thanks for the advice, all.
> 
> Enjoy the continued debate.


If your frig cannot be used in a GFCI circuit then in it cannot be used in an unfinished basement or other area that requires GFCI protection.
Your experts are playing CYA.


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## cbandler

rjniles said:


> If your frig cannot be used in a GFCI circuit then in it cannot be used in an unfinished basement or other area that requires GFCI protection.
> Your experts are playing CYA.


That's the exact point I made to them. The response was 'crickets'...or just put a standard receptacle.


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## jsigmo

*Interesting, and contentious thread!*

As an electronics designer, I may have some useful input that might help resolve some of the arguments presented in this thread.

Having studied the circuits used in several GFCIs, what I found in those units was that they determined when a ground fault was occurring by a clever trick using a small transformer which runs the hot and neutral currents through a pair of windings such that if the currents are the same, their magnetic fields will cancel, thus, inducing no current in a separate sense winding.

Any current that is produced in the sense winding represents an image of the current imbalance between the hot and neutral lines. The assumption is then made that this imbalance must be due to leakage from the hot line to ground, thus bypassing the correct path back through the neutral wire.

This sounds reasonable enough.

However, this assumption is not true in all cases. Brief transients can cause momentary imbalances in the currents due to capacitive or inductive coupling from one or both of the lines to ground. If the GFCI is not tolerant of this sort of transient, it can trip when no real ground fault exists.

Further, the extreme sensitivity required of a GFCI, to detect an imbalance of current in the 4 mA range while passing currents up to 20 Amperes, can render the circuits sensitive to RF or transient spike electromagnetic radiation, etc.

So to think that a GFCI cannot, under any circumstances, trip when no real ground fault exists is asking a lot.

My experience with GFCIs over the years has been that certain completely safe motor devices can and will trip GFCIs when no actual ground fault exists and the GFCI is not defective. It's just a difficult problem to completely solve.

However, newer GFCIs are generally better in this regard. But they can still be fooled into tripping falsely. 

This is probably why manufacturers of freezers and refrigerators have (apparently) advised that their products not be used on GFCI-protected circuits. 

Fridge compressors are often capacitor-start motors. During start-up, they may produce transients which can trigger the GFCI device even though there is no actual hazardous leakage path present.

I have a swamp cooler that I put on a GFCI many years ago because I wanted the safety of that protection on an outdoor device which contains water. It trips the GFCI every so often, maybe once per summer. Often this happens when there is nearby lightning, but not always. I simply reset the GFCI and am good to go for another year or so.

The cooler has no fault. It is obviously a transient issue. I want the protection the GFCI offers, so I put up with this infrequent inconvenience. 

If this was a freezer, however, I doubt that I would be so tolerant about losing hundreds of dollars worth of food once a year or so! A power failure or temperature alarm would be vital. Or, I might install a dedicated non GFCI outlet just for the freezer.

If the frame of the freezer is properly grounded, a true ground fault should trip the breaker if it is of low enough resistance. A small leakage problem would not be noticed (which isn't good) but it couldn't create a shock hazard. That's the whole point of grounding a metal frame appliance.

In these cases where people were being shocked by contact between their freezer and ground, why wasn't the ground integrity of the system investigated and fixed?

OK, I have seen an old freezer that was a 2 wire device. But that is an unusual situation. A GFCI would be highly advisable in that situation. Better yet, replace the freezer! 

I am not advocating violating the code. GFCIs serve a valid purpose.

But to believe that they cannot trip unless there is a true fault in the appliance that causes the trip is a bit naive. 

Appliance manufacturers would not advise people to not use them on GFCI circuits without good reason. Their lawyers wouldn't allow it.


Also, for the guy who solved his problem by using a surge protector between the fridge and the GFCI: This is not a fluke. The surge protector places a MOV (metal oxide varistor) across the line (hot to neutral). When the transient surge comes out of the fridge, the MOV "breaks down" at some voltage higher than normal line voltage and shunts the spike across. This absorbs much of the energy of the spike and the MOV simply dissipates it as heat. This keeps the GFCI from falsely tripping, yet it does not defeat the true protection of the GFCI. This is a good solution. 

Some modern appliances incorporate MOVs or the like into their design to make them less prone to causing EMI or, of course, nuisance false trips of GFCIs. Snubber circuts can also be included to accomplish a similar fix.

MOVs (or snubbers) placed across the contacts of relays can accomplish a lot in this regard, and will also prevent burning and pitting (thus preventing most welding) of the contacts. This is especially important when inductive loads are being switched (like a fridge compressor motor). You'd be surprised at how many industrial-grade fridges don't include this cheap protection, and then stick on and freeze a customer's bottled goods (or laboratory samples), causing thousands of dollars in damage.

A similar problem could be caused by a GFCI falsely tripping. At home, I might lose several hundred dollars worth of food. At a lab whare I worked, they lost thousands of customers' samples, causing the cutomers to need to resample, and in some cases to be in violation of EPA regulations, etc. This was expensive and damaging to the lab's reputation.


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