# Mystery - car suspension knock after turning



## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry to pinch your pride, :wink:but none of those was ball joint test. you did tierod end test and hub bearing test, assuming it's a front wheel drive vehicle. as you provided no info to The People. :no:

you get a loud knock from the front. car is a metal box, metal conducts noises very well, so it is very hard to exactly determine where it's coming from. 

in general:


 *Noises while turning a corner:*
You notice a knocking, clunking, and/or squeaking noise while you turn a corner. Everything else seems to be fine except for the noise. The problem seems to be getting worse over time.
*Possible causes:*

 Something is rubbing against or hitting the steering column: Locate the interference and repair.
 The steering gear needs to be lubricated or repaired: Lubricate or replace steering gear parts as required.
 Parts of the steering linkage are loose and need to be tightened: Tighten or replace loose parts as required.
 Your tires are hitting or rubbing against something: Locate the interference and repair.
 You have worn suspension parts: Replace suspension parts as required.


but that's WHEN TURNING. you have clunk AFTER you turned. now, just to make sure, you had that noise BEFORE you replaced rack n pinion? 
well, you still need to do ball joint test, but i doubt, as ball joint shows itself when you turn and wheel goes down or up, like when you enter a street off parking lot, wheels are turned to the right, and you have to traverse that transitional area between curb and street itself. here's a maybe strange suggestion for you. engine mount. one or all. see, powertrain moves actually quite a bit when you turn front wheels. so, a busted mount can easily cause this type of a noise. 
 next, if you have mcpherson struts in the front(as People don't know) an upper strut plate can do this easy; also, a loose strut spring can move on the lower plate, just a bit, making nasty click related to turns.:whistling2:


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

well, apparently rocking non-weight bearing wheel at 6 and 9 IS a ball joint test in this country, though it is also test for hub bearing:

_If you jack up the car and get the tire off the ground, does shaking the tire with one hand on the top and the other hand on the bottom shake the whole wheel, produce little clunking or clicking sounds? That's typical for a failed lower ball joint. Ball joints look pretty much like the name, it's just a captured ball with a post sticking out the top or the bottom, which moves (very stiffly) in its housing. If you wiggle the grease fitting and you get movement, the ball joint is shot (unless the grease fitting happens to be breaking off). The lower ball joint is the main connection holding the steering knuckle (and thus the wheel) onto the car. The other steering knuckle connections are more about control and alignment. If the rubber boot on the ball joint is broken and it hasn't been greased on a regular basis, it's probably bad. _
_Return to Steering Diagnostic Chart_ 
_Is the tie rod loose? With the car sitting on the ground, can you shake the tire left to right, and feel looseness with a soft clunking or ticking noise? With the car jacked up and the tire off the ground, does shaking the tire the left to right produce more looseness and clinking than shaking the tire from top to bottom? The left to right looseness is a sign of a worn component in the steering linkage, which is what controls the wheel movement in the left-right direction. It could be the tie rod end, which connects the tie rod to the steering knuckle through a ball joint, it could be the inner tie rod joint, which attaches the tie rod assembly to the piston end coming out of the rack, or it could be looseness in the rack itself. I have an illustrated page with photos and videos for diagnosing tie rod problems, and replacing the tie rod end or the inner tie rod. _
_ Replacing the inner tie rod usually requires a special tool, but it's only around $50, or you may be able to borrow or rent one from your local parts store. The real problem is that you may have to remove the rack in order to replace the inner tie rod, if it is staked or pinned to the shaft. There's generally not enough room to swing any tools around the inner tie rod joint, but you may be able to get it if you have large a large crows foot and a couple feet of extension for your ratchet. The job isn't that complicated, but any time you remove the outer tie rod, you should count the exposed threads or take a good picture first so you can reassemble it to exactly the same length - otherwise you'll change the toe and need to realign the the wheels. 
_


so, let me try to tell you how it's done in the old country.
jackstand the front end wheel in question, so that tire is off the ground. turn wheel all the way to one side, which ever way it exposes ball joint the best. now, what you need is a pry bar. test is little tricky. you need to get flat side of the pry bar between control arm and ball joint head. there's not much room there and boot gets in your way, so do your best. now, try to move pry bar up and down. if you can move parts against each other, that ball joint is shut.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks a bunch, UK. Yeah, that test was specified in a few manuals. Now, remember, I did replace the steering rack, so I doubt thats it. Struts are new. BUT, I will take another loo at them, like you said. 

I will study more what you advised above. Lots of info, and I appreciate it big time. 

Oh, its an 88 Pontiac Sunbird....I should have mentioned. New link pins. rubber boots on the ball joints are looking bad. I will tug on the grease fittings like you said.......


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry, i could not correct it earlier, i had home network installed.
you get pry bar between the control arm and lower knuckle on the hub. my bad, sorry.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

is it just a single knock or multiple?

does it do it when turning either direction?

can you make it do it multiple times by turning, straightening and turning again all within the same turn?

does it act any differently if you accelerate as you turn or coast while you turn?


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

well, if you had struts replaced, that normally involves springs removal and re-install. springs have to sit just right on lower support plates, mating with notch for the spring end, or it will move and click when you turn steering wheel. 
i'd never ever do any strenuous pull or push on grease fittings. never.
try grabbing your engine valve cover and rocking it back and for. you may get lucky and reproduce the clunk. now, with that being 88, i betcha engine mounts are shot. honestly, for the year, there might be somany different areas it can clunk....


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

nap said:


> is it just a single knock or multiple?
> 
> does it do it when turning either direction?
> 
> ...


Yes, does it while either turning L or R. Also, new engine mounts 2 yrs ago. 

Will have to see next few days if your idea of the car doing it wwwwwhile either accelerating or coasting.........


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> well, if you had struts replaced, that normally involves springs removal and re-install. springs have to sit just right on lower support plates, mating with notch for the spring end, or it will move and click when you turn steering wheel.
> i'd never ever do any strenuous pull or push on grease fittings. never.
> try grabbing your engine valve cover and rocking it back and for. you may get lucky and reproduce the clunk. now, with that being 88, i betcha engine mounts are shot. honestly, for the year, there might be somany different areas it can clunk....


Thanks again, UK. I made sure to install struts the RIGHT way.....I kinda obsess over stuff like that. Still, cant rule anything out yet. very elusive, this clunk/pop

Again, new mounts as mentioned above.......


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> sorry, i could not correct it earlier, i had home network installed.
> you get pry bar between the control arm and lower knuckle on the hub. my bad, sorry.


No problem. So, you must mean put the tip of the crow bar lever right at the ball joint, as thats wwhere the control arm ends- at the joint, eh?


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

control arm end is mated with knuckle via ball joint. some have ball joint bolted into control arm, some have it pressed in. ball joint knuckle is conical and permits some clearance between control arm and hub knuckle. usually, it is covered with ball joint rubber boot.
that's the gap you want to get into. you will have to work in a very small area, as ledge on the hub knuckle is usually only 3-4mm wide. strong flat head screwdriver works very well for this.
why don't you list ALL the suspension parts that were replaced so far?
clicking is "something is catching on something, then released" type of noise.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

hey, just a quick word. that part was replaced does not mean that it will work well and for long time. many aftermarket parts are, basically, junk, and it takes a lot of School of The Hard Knocks education to know what to buy and who not to buy from. i had *three* out of the box alternators bad one night from Al's Auto Supply here. then again, some aftermarket parts are better quality and design than OEM ones. :yes:


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> control arm end is mated with knuckle via ball joint. some have ball joint bolted into control arm, some have it pressed in. ball joint knuckle is conical and permits some clearance between control arm and hub knuckle. usually, it is covered with ball joint rubber boot.
> that's the gap you want to get into. you will have to work in a very small area, as ledge on the hub knuckle is usually only 3-4mm wide. strong flat head screwdriver works very well for this.
> why don't you list ALL the suspension parts that were replaced so far?
> clicking is "something is catching on something, then released" type of noise.


oK, UK. Tanks. Yes, it is the type that bolts on the control arm- with 3 bolts. I get it- put the pry bar/tool/whatever at that point and gently pry.......

Hopefully, I have no junk parts. Youre right though, Ive sen reman stuff from china....just resprayed with black paint. 

I wil get back to you. Thanks. Might be 2-3 days.......


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Make, model, year of car and mileage, please.

Oops! an 88 Pontiac Sunbird... Probably over 100K... first guess, sway bar bushings... Jack up car's front end, get both wheels off the ground, support the car on jack stands, start it, turn the steering wheel. If sound is gone, it's suspension wear, if it's still there, it's the steering system, maybe a binding/flexing inner tie rod. Check the boots for wear/twisted rubber.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

noquacks said:


> oK, UK. Tanks. Yes, it is the type that bolts on the control arm- with 3 bolts. I get it- put the pry bar/tool/whatever at that point and gently pry.......
> 
> Hopefully, I have no junk parts. Youre right though, Ive sen reman stuff from china....just resprayed with black paint.
> 
> I wil get back to you. Thanks. Might be 2-3 days.......



sure. we'll get it. forums are great helpers for descriptive and persistent members. i had one guy that spent hrs and days with me, chasing my septic problem. we got it.
big is also right. sort of interesting, as i had just posted a similar suggestion in another forum:

_get her on jackstands, so that wheels are off the ground, lock rear wheels, start the engine, and get her into drive. so that wheels spin. then turn wheels left and right. if it does it with wheels in non-weight bearing, it's prolly driveaxles. if it does not, then it's suspension elements. struts, maybe ball joint. either way, it might be easier to locate the noise origin._

but he definitely has merit to it.


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

CV joint(s). Plain & simple


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Keep your eyes open for rubber bushings (sway bar, engine brace, etc) that may have shifted. I once had a knock from the back end, made sound when turning, -- turned out that a rubber bushing had shifted laterally, and the trailing arm was rubbing the steel bracket. Took a while to figure that one out. I thought it was my differential going away.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Bigplanz said:


> Make, model, year of car and mileage, please.
> 
> Oops! an 88 Pontiac Sunbird... Probably over 100K... first guess, sway bar bushings... Jack up car's front end, get both wheels off the ground, support the car on jack stands, start it, turn the steering wheel. If sound is gone, it's suspension wear, if it's still there, it's the steering system, maybe a binding/flexing inner tie rod. Check the boots for wear/twisted rubber.


Thnaks, Big, its got 175.000 on it!! Good tip. still maybe cab do this test this week.....please stay tuned, even though I cant jump on it today.......still too many silk worms on the oaks............Now, one thing to add from todays testing/driving: it does it after a turn, in between shifting from 1st to 2nd....while clutch is depressed. Meaning: tranny disengaged.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

I'd check a motor mount. If the tranny isn't engaged and you clunk coming out of a turn, the motor mount might be loose or the bushing deteriorated. Check every rubber bushing, motor mount, control arm, sway bar. Also check tranny mount too. If it isn't these, a CV joint is a distinct possibility, but it should make a real distinctive sound if it's a CV joint. To test, get it on the highway, accelerate to about 50 mph real fast, then let off on the gas. A bad CV joint will then go clunk. It it's only in turns, it's probably a bushing or tie rod (my guess),


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

+1 for BigPlanz -

I'm a vote for suspension bushings especially with the high mileage. I'm betting they've not been changed? 

Noquacks - if they haven't been done, do them. It will be like getting a new suspension for your well-loved old car. :thumbsup: 

When I put new ones on our '86 Volvo it handled like a new car. 200,000 miles later I need to do them again. 

we've got 450,000 on it, only on it's 3rd clutch, no engine re-build - it's had synthetic in it since day 1, and it still gets 25-28 mpg. The A/C doesn't work and the interior has seen better days. But it costs me $100 bucks a year to insure, I do all the work on it, and parts at the pick-and-pull are pretty cheap.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

if it is a CV joint, it will make one of two sounds, based on it being an inner or outer joint. If outer, it will make the distinctive "click-click-click-click" when turning but almost always only does it when powering around a corner.

An inner joint will make a thump, thud, or pop sound but only once. It won't do it on a straight run. It will do it when turning and usually only happens if you accelerate while turning. The sound comes from the plunging movement specific to an inner joint. What happens is the housing/races become worn in a particular spot. As you turn, the rollers hang up in that wear groove and when you accelerate while turning, it causes the suspension to drop which requires the shaft to elongate and when the rollers bind in the housing, you hear the noise when they pop free.

If any CV joint, the OP would appear to be experiencing an inner. To test that, simply drive the car in circles. Start slowly and then accelerate to cause the car to lean. Do not alter your steering angle (that will help prevent other factors coming into play). You can so this continually until you are satisfied you hear something, or not. Then circle the opposite direction and do the same thing to check the inner cv joint on the other side.


quacks: did you put a new or used rack in? Either new or used; did you use new mounting bushings?

If a used rack, I would look to a bad bushing that holds the rack in place. You should be able to grab the inner tie rod and shake it perpendicular to the rack/rod line. If the bushings are bad, you should get noticeable movement. You will also likely have power steering fluid leakage at the seal. Look inside the boot that spans from the rack to the tie rod.

I have also seen bad racks that had too much slop in the rack and pinion interface and cause a looseness but until that looseness is noticeable with a hands on inspection, the weight of a car being able to impart much more force, may cause a knock similar to a bad inner tie rod socket.

If the bushings are bad, they may act in a similar way. Not enough slop to move by hand but the force of the car is much more powerful.



With the miles on the car, I would also look at control arm bushings. They are often overlooked because they seem to last forever.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks again, guys. What great support/concern Ive found here!! Some answers to your questions:
1) Yes, new rack with new rubber mounts. Pretty tight. But steering is still kinda sloppy (pointing to cv joint play??)
2) Motor mount (front) and trans mount new 2 yrs ago
3) Original control arm bushings- appear solid/one piece/no rot. Wedged a crow bar in them and no play


I am focusing more now on the CV joint, especially the driv side which has a boot that has been for years a split boot. I redress it with grease say, every 2 years. Last time appeared to be not dried out. But who knows.Heres what Ive found for a cv joint test:

 *SYMPTOMS OF CV JOINT FAILURE*
Bad boots are not the only thing you need to look for. You also need to listen for noise or complaints that might indicate a *CV* *joint* problem. These include: 
Popping or clicking noises when turning. This almost always indicates a worn or damaged outer *CV* *joint*. To verify this condition, place the vehicle in reverse, crank the steering wheel to one side and drive the vehicle backwards in a circle (check the rearview mirror first!). If the noise gets louder, it confirms the diagnosis and the need for a new *CV* *joint* or replacement shaft assembly.

Ive always ben aware of this test, and actually, did it about a month ago. BUT, Im still suspicious of it. So, right now, silkworms or more silkworms hanging all over my driveway/property, working their way down my shirt collar, Im gonna jack up the sunbird......

Oh, I thought the classic sound of a bad cv joint was a click-click-click driving it in REVERSE kinda fastly, but Im getting just one POP. Could be inner?

Leah, amazing mileage on that Volvo! Im jealous........a sunbird is not a Volvo......


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Ok, did it. Well, only thing is I cant turn fast in a circle well in my driveway, but managed to do partial....and yes, I hear a pop when turning, but no click click click. Kinda spliting hairs, I figure. Now, tomorrow, Im taking it to work and I have the whole parking lot, and thats where a GOOD test will be able to be done. Im gonna do both rear turn right, and left. I'll let yous know. I cant draw conclusion with my driveway test....not good enough. 

Whattya think so far? I tyink Im on the right track (pun?)


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

When you're in the parking lot - get under your car with a flashlight and look at all your bushings.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

when testing for the inner joints, go in a circle...slowly. Maintain that same turn and accelerate a bit until you get the car to roll a bit. It is then when you should hear an inner joint if it is the inner joint making the noise. Do it in both directions. When turning left, you are checking the left joint. When turning right, the right joint.
you need to do this in a big empty parking lot where you have a lot of room.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

OK, did more tests.....went in circles backwards at work......boss said it was strange. 

Didnt get any noises when just turning in reverse. BUT, when going forward got the POP. POP was only when turning right, then straightening out, between 1st and 2nd....in "neutral". No pop when turning left then going straight. 

So, whats the verdict? Im kinda confused. I can say for sure, thet when I get the pop, it is right under my left foot, near clutch pedal. No way its at the far right......


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

1. like i said, engine mount; i don't think you did ALL of them. right? engine normally has 3 and trannie has at least 2, and where your foot feels it, it's one of them close by.
2. you had rack n pinion replaced, right? it is loose on one of it's mounts/bolts
3. if you feel it under your left foot, in the body, then it's somewhere close. depending on your steering configuration, it might be link between steering column and rack n pinion. those are usually very hard to get to, and shops do sloppy jobs on re-fastening everything back.
4. you do have a cardan joint between steering column and pinion? see where i'm headed to? that should be right next to your foot.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> 1. like i said, engine mount; i don't think you did ALL of them. right? engine normally has 3 and trannie has at least 2, and where your foot feels it, it's one of them close by.
> 2. you had rack n pinion replaced, right? it is loose on one of it's mounts/bolts
> 3. if you feel it under your left foot, in the body, then it's somewhere close. depending on your steering configuration, it might be link between steering column and rack n pinion. those are usually very hard to get to, and shops do sloppy jobs on re-fastening everything back.
> 4. you do have a cardan joint between steering column and pinion? see where i'm headed to? that should be right next to your foot.


OK, one more look at it.....what the heck. I'll shake the engine maybe, with a 6' 2x4. But, like I said in post #22, rack is TIGHT. I checked it. And yes, I did put in new bushings. Now, UK, I did the rack myself. Yes, that cardan(?) joint is a pain to get to, but Im not gonna take it apart now.....LOL

I doubt its the rack. So, I gotta say, UK, you have a good point on the idea of the noise being cl;ose to the floor/left foot. If it was the cv joint on driv side, would one feel that that way??

Time to head back outside.......


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

OK, firdt, before going back outside and crawl under car, heres the onnly mount I did not replace:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=315098

Its the right-rear mount. Kinda a pain to get to........

be back.........


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Whew......what a pain. Cant even get a good view down there. Kinda felt around with my fingers and go from a "mental" picture. Im thinking UK has a point: replace that final mount that has not been replaced, and go from there. Its cheap, and probably not a big deal to yank. Easier than a cv joint.

THEN, at least you have that covered. Right?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

noquacks said:


> . Easier than a cv joint.


if you say so.

I don't know how difficult it is to replace that mount but I have had some that were real mo.., uh, bears....ya, that;'s it, bears to change.

A cv shaft; piece of cake. I think my record is 10 minutes (not counting getting the car on the lift) from start to finish, including removing and re-installing the wheel.

the shaft is more than likely a lot more expensive than the mount though. 

I cannot endorse anything at this point as the problem. Too many possibilities and sometimes, if I can't hear it myself, I tend to not diagnose it with much certainty. This is one of those times.


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## mickey cassiba (Mar 17, 2011)

I had a 98 Chrysler that made a clunk on right turns only...turned out to be the rear transmission mount broken. That after lots and and lots of driving in circles backwards and forwards. 
Disclaimer: I am a "shade tree mechanic" The newer stuff never ceases to amaze, or bewilder me.
Mick


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

noquacks, what shape are your cv joints in? THAT you can check, right?

butlike i said few times already. power train moves quite a bit when steering wheel is turned. that's rack and pinion thing. and side-wise engine mount. it's very different on rear wheel drive and longitudinal engine mount.

buddy, if it's that mount, then bingo! i am seriously hoping it is not as hard to replace as one on my ex, 91 Civic. nothing was easy on that car, but one in the back of the engine was an absolute biatch. i tackled that 3 times, and three times i failed, and i finally got it on the forth. there was one bolt hidden by undercarriage, and you have to drop entire crossmember and disconnect steering shaft, or there will not be enough clearance to do it. well, that's books way, we did it without all this. but that's when i bought meself THREE flexible drives, that can go in curves.

also, before you tackle that job, reach to that cardan on steering shaft and yank it this way and that way. but frankly, should it have been that cardan, it'd kick into steering wheel. if you feel it through the floor, it's something attached to it. crossmeber if you have one, steering rack, or power train.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Well, thanks again, guys. Man, (scratching 2 day old beard stubble), yous might be right on that rear mount being a pain to change. Should look at it more first. Hey, I could always return the rubber mount if I fail. 

Now, UK, oyu ask what shape are my cv joints? How can one tell? Could I maybe jack up the car and with tires removed, grab/twist/shake them at BOTH ends to determine? I mean, how does one tell for sure without yanking it? Thats what Im after. All I know is what Ive posted earlier- the boot was replaced with a split one (driv side) years ago, and redressed occasionally.

I told you it was a mystery. I hate to keep this soap opera going, but thats what it is......


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

usually, a torn boot is well enough indicator.
if you had boot replaced - that joint is prolly no good. reason being, unless you do regular inspections and correct this type of things right away, dirt gets inside and is SEALED INSIDE with a replacement boot. thereafter, keeps doing its job, grinding on the joint innards.
i do not want to sound like a rich cat, but nowadays it is more feasible to replace the whole driveaxle with a new of remanufactured one, than boot itself.
i agree with the rest of the folks - CV joint will show itself in a turn at a low speed.
if i were you, and you want to tackle that mount, and they are roughly in the same place on all side mount engines - get yourself flexible drive extension. or, at least, a cardan type one. flexi drive is only 7 bucks on Amazon. unless you can find it locally, i could not. 
http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=p76ETZXCIofAsAPRv_D9AQ&ved=0CC0Q8wIwAg# :thumbsup::thumbup:


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks, UK. I never knew of such a tool. Good tip. I do have the universall joint for ratchets but not this. Thanks for all your help over the days. I will ge back to you with what happens. Have a good wekend.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Replacing a drive axle on an 88 Pontiac should be fairly easy. I'd rather have that job than replacing a motor mount. Hardest part of getting the drive axle out will be getting the hub nut off. Make sure you have a 25 inch (minimum) 1/2 inch breaker bar. A 3/4 inch is better. Oh, don't reuse the old nut. It has to be torqued down pretty tight (around 184 ft/lbs or thereabouts, check the manual). The old one will be no good after you get it off; you need a new one to set the torque right.

Edit to add: I just checked RockAuto. A drive axle for your car can be had for about $45, axle nut included.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

noquacks said:


> Thanks, UK. I never knew of such a tool. Good tip. I do have the universall joint for ratchets but not this. Thanks for all your help over the days. I will ge back to you with what happens. Have a good wekend.



he-he. i have sports interest in this. my gut tells me it's that mount. gut next to that gut says it's driveaxle you had boot replaced on.

btw, quick and dirty with drivexale nut is to drive to any close by tire shop and ask them to break it loose for you. you will have to have a suitable socket also, any major parts store rents - for free - what is called front axle socket kit. after done, hand torque as much as you can with long extension (you will have to jam a prybar under a wheel stud to prevent it from turning; i have turned every single wheel on every single car with a 2 feet cheat pipe and long extension) and then drive back to same shop and have it torqued again.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Man, yous must have thought noquacks gave up- quit. But, no way! Just that I had a massive storm hit us 2 wks ago....( 3 tornadoes locally), and made trees fall in our yard- what a mess!

Anyway, I finally got the ball joint popped off, and man, that thing is so beat up!! I did the pop off with a chisel, and the joint tore apart! The bottom of it kinda just fell off! So, im thinking maybe thats got to be the culprit! So, Im gonna get a new joint, then drive it to see if the popping/clunking is gone. If now, hey, no big deal, I'll pop itr off again.

Thing is, on this car, that ball joint is kinda rivited on with 3 huge rivets, it appears. How do I get that joint of? I dont want to buy a whole comnntrol arm.....

Thanks, people!


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

you see, this picture shows my ball joint with threaded bolts(3 of them), not rivets......
http://www.carparts.com/details/Pon...Ball_Joint/1987/MEMK5273.html?TID=froogle&cpm

Maybe I have to chisel off the rivets? drill them out?


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

chisel off one side or the other and then use a drift punch and hammer to drive the rivets out.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

You must have the original ball joints on your car if there are rivets. Drill them out, slowly. High torque, low RPM drill works best. A chisel will work, but if you deform the ball joint holes, forget it, the whole control arm has to be replaced. The replacement ball joint will have bolts and nuts. Be sure to torque them to specs! My Olds Silhouette had riveted ball joints! Replaced mine at 88K and once since then. 178K and still going strong! 

Buy a grease gun and keep them lubed and they'll last forever. That's what burned up my second set, some DA at the lube place never greased the ball joints and tie rods! Now I do them once every year or so and haven't had a ball joint/tie rod problem in 10 years.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Thaks again, people. Update: I couldnt get a drill under the joint to drill out, and neither on top cuz the cv joint end is in the way. So, ground the heads off from underneath to flush. Now, trying to gently bump off the rivets from through the top. Stubborn!!!!!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

noquacks said:


> Thaks again, people. Update: I couldnt get a drill under the joint to drill out, and neither on top cuz the cv joint end is in the way. So, ground the heads off from underneath to flush. Now, trying to gently bump off the rivets from through the top. Stubborn!!!!!


did you miss my previous post? You can grind or chisel off the rivet heads. Use a punch and drive from the side you ground off. I generally grind or chisel off the top and drive downward. Unless you are on a car lift, you usually don't have room to use a punch and get a swing on it with a hammer from the bottom.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

nap said:


> did you miss my previous post? You can grind or chisel off the rivet heads. Use a punch and drive from the side you ground off. I generally grind or chisel off the top and drive downward. Unless you are on a car lift, you usually don't have room to use a punch and get a swing on it with a hammer from the bottom.


OK, Nap. Youve given me one last hope- I did see your post, but Maybe I didnt explain well......I cant get neither a drill now grinder to do the top rivet heads.....CV JOINT IS IN THE WAY.

Now, even chiseling them may be tough...theres not the right angle for it. lemme go there one more time............


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Getting under the rivets is pretty difficult on a GM balljoint. I used a low torque right angle drill when I did mine, but it was still a pain. Grind the rivet and use a punch is good, if you can get an angle. Hard to swing a three-pound hammer up though. 

This is why a car lift makes everything so much easier. Lift the car up five feet off the ground and you can get to the rivets easy!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I currently have my daughters sunfire front wheel about 2 feet off the ground so I can work on finishing a transmission swap. I could get a really good swing on a hammer going up. 

When I used to do auto repair for a living, I don't remember ever drilling out a rivet. Either an air hammer with a chisel tip or a oxy-acetylene torch. Then a hammer and punch to knock the rivets out on most OR a chisel between the ball joint and the control arm. I usually tool off the head of the rivet on the side that is next to the part being replaced. 

A little persistence and patience is required. You don't want to damage things like the CV boot or your hands.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Yahooooooo!!!

man, finally getting somewhere! Bit the bullet and yanked the control arm! Now, its easy to manipulate! Grinding the top of river right now.........

Thanks guys!


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

it's kinda too late..

book says to remove control arm and drill a pilot hole dead in the rivet head center, then increase it consecutively with 2 more larger size bits, until the job is done.

not to argue with the enlightened folks that had it done otherwise, but drilling does make the most sense. safe.:thumbsup:


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

Despite what you think, UK, its not too late. I did mess up by not aiming in the center, yeah. But, there is an alternative- which does require me to yank the control arm. It involves an air hammer......gonna get it done tomorrow. Way I understand it, the air hammer uses some kind of tool to impact that spot to drive the rivet center out- independantof drilled holes.....

I'll let you know what happens. man, cant wait....what a project. But, I do have to thank all of yous here- it would have been worse without your support. guys!


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

i worked as a toolmaker for 7 yrs, i know how hard is it to center punch anything without proper tool. eyeballing center of a rod is a tough job even for a seazoned driller.
otherwise, you do have to be careful with alternative methods. all of the guys here are correct about potential damage. and grinding it off is damaging either, as the very moment metal starts turning blue - it loses it's strength.

hey, btw, if you have them control arms out - replace bushings same time, including antisway bar ones. will make your front end rock solid again.:thumbsup:


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> i worked as a toolmaker for 7 yrs, i know how hard is it to center punch anything without proper tool. eyeballing center of a rod is a tough job even for a seazoned driller.
> otherwise, you do have to be careful with alternative methods. all of the guys here are correct about potential damage. and grinding it off is damaging either, as the very moment metal starts turning blue - it loses it's strength.
> 
> hey, btw, if you have them control arms out - replace bushings same time, including antisway bar ones. will make your front end rock solid again.:thumbsup:


Geez, UK, now youre gonna make me do MORE work.....LOL. If I do the bushings now, and sway /stabilizer bar rubber now, what will I do for fun in a year or 2...LOL

Well, my buddy with a machine shop/industrial presses, etc etc etc, did some work, but finally got those dang rivet centers out! Man, talk about tough. He had to press them out. Good budy to have locally. 

Now, gonna get out there and mount it all together. I'll let yous know. 

Thanks, People.


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

OK, theres no spec for torqueing the 3- 1/2" bolts with lock nuts. Auto zone knows nothing (was that a surprise?). Manual has no info on torquing, as I figure they know its aftermarket, and have no control over this stuff(?). 

Now what do I do? I just dont want to guess "hey, thats good ennough"........


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

are they grade 8 bolts?







the head has the 6 lines on it like in the pic


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

no lines like your drawing showed, NAP. AZ manager looked it up finally for me and said spec was 50 ' lbs. Thanks, anyway. But: I DID IT! Tomorrow I test drive it to work!! Whew. I'll let yous know if the joint definitively was the culprit and not the CV joint/motor mounts.......

Thanks!!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

after all of that, I surely hope that takes care if it.


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## ukrkoz (Dec 31, 2010)

i think, we all need to applaud noquaks for being a great sport and dedicated DIY-er. that's the course to stay on, buddy!:thumbup:


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

ukrkoz said:


> i think, we all need to applaud noquaks for being a great sport and dedicated DIY-er. that's the course to stay on, buddy!:thumbup:


Here here, UK!!! Drove it to work and back, and man, what a difference a new joint makes!! (smiling, much joy)

Sucess at last....Yeah, this "mystery " as it started took us here and there, but I remember UK saying [we WILL eventually get it]!! He was right, and again, thanks to all here (too many to mention).

Ball joint done. (when will the passenger side one quit.......LOL)


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

noquacks said:


> Ball joint done. (when will the passenger side one quit.......LOL)


um, does it have the same amount of miles on it as the driver's side did?


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## noquacks (Jun 5, 2010)

nap said:


> um, does it have the same amount of miles on it as the driver's side did?


Well, nap, your suspicion is understood. Guess I need to tell the WHOLE story.....

technically, it does have the same mileage- original, 176,000 miles. And its still good. Why did I have to replacce the driv side one which was clunking? Lemme go back, way back, to say, Last December. 3AM, going 45-50mph, left front wheel falls off car. yeah. Driver survives unhurt 100% (except for a few shattered nerves). During the scraping/slowing down, inthe dark, sparks flying everywhere. Oncoming traffic honking horns.

Wheel studs completely tear off, and the mech at the site told me only thing wrong was the disc flattened out a bit- which I verified after getting the car home. He installed 5 new studs, and that was it. 

This is, I never suspected the ball joint!! The bottom of it is about 1" below level of the bottom of the disc/rotor. So, bottom half of the joint got ground off, even exposing the innards of the ball itself!

Sheesh. Took me about well, you know now, say, 5 months to figure it out.....LOL. Pass side joint should last a while, I figure, unless wheeel falls off that side...LOL


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