# Sump pit filling faster when showers running...



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

We've had no rain for several days, and as my wife was bathing my children at the same time as my daughter was taking a shower, I noticed my sump pump go off twice in a span of 10 minutes which I found very odd. I took the cover off the sump pit and noticed it filling much more quickly than I expected, and the color of the water was not the typical clear water but looked like graywater. When showers and baths were done, sump pit was quiet with a steady water level... no sump activity for hours on end.

This is a 2008 build home - I'm blown away that I have what looks to be a main drain failure of some sort. We're 2nd owners so no warranties. Wondering if there's anything I can do to determine the level of issue and how imminent it is to fix as money is tight and will remain so until daycare bills slow down.

Here is a picture of the main drain just as it exits my basement about 4' above basement floor and about 6' below ground level:









A couple feet to the left of this cleanout is the sump pit. From what I can tell, it only seems to be filling when I'm draining a large volume; slower drains like from handwashing, dishwasher, etc don't appear to make it to the sump pit (or maybe I just don't notice a smaller amount).

I'm thinking that if there is a break it will probably be close to the foundation since it appears drain water appears in the sump very quickly after large drains start ie shower and tub draining simultaneously. Can I remove the pvc cap on this 8yr old cleanout and look inside with a flashlight? I have a waterproof snake-camera that will go a good 10' ... any guesses as to whether I'd be able to see anything?

If the problem is with a breakage or decoupling right outside the foundation, can I roll up my sleeves and dig down 6' to the pipe, maybe a small 4' trench, and resolve the problem myself, or pay a plumber a reasonable sum to fix the section of pipe and then refill the trench? A friend recently had his waste line replaced and was throwing $7k to $12k numbers around which made me want to puke ... but his was a 50yr old clay pipe and needed to be fully replaced. Could I possibly get away with a half day of hand digging and an hour or two of plumber's labor?

Thanks for any help, stressing out about this issue.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You need to get a plumber to run a camera to see why you are getting water from the DWV into the Sump.

If you want to do a quick test to see if it is caused by a problem with the DWV. Pour some liquid dye down the drains for the showers and see if it comes out into the Sump. Make sure that you use different colored dyes and only do one at a time after you flush out the previous dye.


----------



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Lots of shower water and dish water can corrode the sump pump and shorten its life compared with plain ground water.

The sump pump must not discharge into a septic tank and must not leave a puddle against or near the foundation. This increases the chance that somebody might notice shower water and washing machine water flowing on the surface.

Do you see the gray water flowing down one of the side pipes emptying into the sump pit or does it just rise by itself?


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

AllanJ said:


> Do you see the gray water flowing down one of the side pipes emptying into the sump pit or does it just rise by itself?


I do not see anything coming out of the side pipes. I ran the pump until the pit was almost totally empty (keeping the switch on until I heard shlurping noises) and it looked like water was rushing up into the pit from the bottom of the pit.

The side/drain tile pipes only ever seem to have any activity during heavy rainstorms.

My sump pump exhausts to a drainage area several hundred feet away from my home.

I am wondering if it would be a bad idea to take off the cap shown in the image I posted - would I be able to get my arm in there a couple feet and feel around for a break, crack or decoupling? I see a large rubber coupling before I hit wall ... wondering if maybe the other side of that coupling slipped off? What would I see/feel when exploring that waste line cleanout, besides the obvious pleasantries...

I will do the dye test to verify before doing any of this, although gregzoll I am wondering why you suggest using different colored dyes ... don't all roads lead to this waste line? Why would I want to use different colors?

Thanks for the pointers so far.


----------



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

It does. But you want to see which is the culprit. It could be that it was rigged up for gray water discharge. Especially if you are on Septic.

I would still call in a plumber with a camera to check out the DWV to see if there are any breaks in it as it exits the house.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Your main drain snapped where it exits the wall. This is what happens when back filled without taking the time to support the pipe properly. So unscrew that big 4 inch clean out plug and take a look with a bright flashlight.

PS how ever plumbed the house wasn't a good plumber. Love the san tee on its back.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ghostmaker said:


> Your main drain snapped where it exits the wall. This is what happens when back filled without taking the time to support the pipe properly. So unscrew that big 4 inch clean out plug and take a look with a bright flashlight.
> 
> PS how ever plumbed the house wasn't a good plumber. Love the san tee on its back.


I am a layman yet knew soon after we closed on the house that the plumber that worked on this house was lazy. Saw some ugly work when I replaced a toilet and thought "one day this trade will bite me." I suppose this is that day.

Just googled what you mentioned about the sanitary tee ... nice. In the course of fixing this issue I'll have a competent plumber put in a wye (right?).

I believe this is likely what happened based on all symptoms (low flow makes it to the pipe, high flow goes over the breakage - If so, is a diy or hybrid diy fix out of the question for me? Can I shovel down to where the pipe is severed, enough feet away from foundation so I can lift a portion up, lay in some crushed stone, put back together? Or should I be looking to cancel vacation plans?


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

First open up the clean out and take a look. If it is what I think it is it's a DIY project to fix. We got an entire board here to help.

Go on vacation it hasn't killed anyone yet! Enjoy yourself then get ready to dig but first we need a look.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ghostmaker said:


> First open up the clean out and take a look. If it is what I think it is it's a DIY project to fix. We got an entire board here to help.
> 
> Go on vacation it hasn't killed anyone yet! Enjoy yourself then get ready to dig but first we need a look.


Thanks for easing my mind - I called a couple plumbers to see how much it would be for a quick video inspection of my line, I figured I should verify the pipe far downstream is in ok shape.

Prices started at "at least $225" so I thought I would give it a go myself ... purchased a 15' USB endoscope ($25 on Amazon) and today attached it to a snake and went in through the exterior cleanout which is a few feet away from the wall, directly above where the inside basement cleanout:









Unfortunately, the boroscope was a piece of crap, no pun intended, and I couldn't see anything with it. I used my cellphone and a camera to peer down into the outside cleanout:









I saw some water, some TP and other fun things. The water didn't seem to move. I had my wife pull the plug on our upstairs tub, a little movement, but not much. My anxiety went up as I ran test after test, it looks like that exterior cleanout is showing me that very little is actually going past that point.

I think my next move will be to take the pvc cap off on the interior cleanout and feel around. I have some questions:

There is a lot of standing water in the cleanout so does that mean at least part of the pipe is pitched back to the house? Any guesses/advice on a type or size of container I should have at the ready when that cap comes off?

Can I take a big pipe wrench and just unscrew that white cap? Pic of cleanout in first post.

Once I'm done with this adventure, how do I put the cap back? Just screw it back in or should I use tape, or some other kind of sealant/gunk?

Btw the pipe is about 4.5' down from grade. It will be a heck of a dig but I think I'll be able to manage it. 

Thanks for any tips and advice, I will wait to hear from those with more experience before opening pandora's cleanout. lain:


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Ghostmaker said:


> Your main drain snapped where it exits the wall. This is what happens when back filled without taking the time to support the pipe properly. So unscrew that big 4 inch clean out plug and take a look with a bright flashlight.
> 
> PS how ever plumbed the house wasn't a good plumber. Love the san tee on its back.


More than likely, I've seen it numerous times through the years. I get a call to look at a "wet basement wall" around the sewer pipe and it ends up the sewer line is sheared off right outide of the foundation. As mentioned, the sewer lines get pulled downn from settling soil with no support under them, and simply break.

Pulling off the clean-out cover on the inside should tell you instantly if this is the case........


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Thanks - I'm ready to take the cap off, just a little terrified of what's going to come dumping out. :vs_worry: Would like to hear any words of advice before I attempt this.


----------



## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Put a pail under the pipe. It's not as bad as you may think............


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ghostmaker said:


> Your main drain snapped where it exits the wall. This is what happens when back filled without taking the time to support the pipe properly. So unscrew that big 4 inch clean out plug and take a look with a bright flashlight.
> 
> PS how ever plumbed the house wasn't a good plumber. Love the san tee on its back.


Well I finally unscrewed the cleanout - don't know why I waited so long, I've had jars of jelly that were harder to turn. 

As Ghostmaker and jomama45 predicted, the pipe is disconnected right at the house:









So that connection is about 5' under grade. What do I do now ... grab my shovel and cancel my gym membership?


----------



## Olcrazy1 (May 28, 2013)

Looks like you are lucky to find the problem and have an easy fix. Grab that shovel and start digging, reconnect the pipes, put stone under the pipe to support it so it doesn't settle, backfill and have a drink.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Olcrazy1 said:


> Looks like you are lucky to find the problem and have an easy fix. Grab that shovel and start digging, reconnect the pipes, put stone under the pipe to support it so it doesn't settle, backfill and have a drink.


You make it sound so simple. 

How far under the pipe should I dig - 6" good? Then what kind of stone, crusher? Do I reuse that fernco? What about the pipe - it almost looks like it barely reaches the fernco at this point. I imagine I'll need to remove the section leading to the cleanout-T to get the crusher in and tamp the hell out of it, so maybe it would be smart to get a new slightly longer pipe so I can really cram it into that fernco nice and secure?

Looking forward to that drink.


----------



## Olcrazy1 (May 28, 2013)

Old fill should not settle anymore but if you disturb is go down to where it is undisturbed and fill with stone or pea gravel. Since its all PVC as you stated would be easy to make it longer if you have to.


----------



## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Digging is hard work and it will take you a lot longer than you think.
But, that drink will taste oh so much sweeter.....ha...

Go for it and start digging. Buy what you need after you've assessed the damage.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

Your going to have to clear enough of the pipe so you can fix it but also it is important that any that remains is falling towards your septic field. You may need to clean 10 foot or so completely to make a repair. I would not use an all rubber fernco because they tend to mis-align quickly. I would suggest a proflex band coupling from fernco. While your at it I would also move that inside clean out outside. and get rid of that san tee your idiot gluer of pipe put in. You want that CO outside because when you need to snake you want to keep the nasty stuff outside instead of in your basement.

If it is 5 foot down it might be a good time to rent a mini backhole. They are fun to learn anyways.


----------



## York v45 (Feb 23, 2014)

If you have the option a backhoe rental makes this a few hour job and will still save you thousands. Besides that learning to run the backhoe is fun.....just don't hit the house!


----------



## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Ghostmaker made an important point. Just in case, he means that the sunken pipe will have to be raised back up. That means you need enough earth removed so that the pipe will move up. Alls good if you knew that already. You probably will need to remove that 10' section and replace. Remaining may want jet cleaning.
Also making sure there's nothing else around the area such as electrical, etc.
Refilling - I'd not use gravel or well draining soil since you don't want to create a channel for the water. I'd have some means of compacting the earth under the pipe and refill should be compacted as well. Separate the top soil from bad soil etc.
The repair and refill can go a lot faster if you can arrange not to use the plumbing at least a day and refill, at least under the pipe, should be dry as possible. There may be ground water which would need a pump.


----------



## ChuckF. (Aug 25, 2013)

Get a decent sized tarp, lay it out and pile the dirt from the hole onto it. Makes reassembly and cleanup so much easier.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Thanks for all the suggestions and support.

I have a call into the original builder, and am waiting to hear back on the possibility that the original sewer contractor (would that just be the plumber that plumbed this house?) might have guaranteed the sewer for some amount of time and maybe that guarantee would transfer to me. Granted, an extreme long shot, but the builder has a solid reputation so who knows, maybe I'll be thrown a bone. Unlikely, but I'm a dreamer.

I considered renting some machinery but the proximity to the house, and the exterior cleanout that's a few feet from the wall, and the retaining wall near this whole mess, is making me think of a hand-dug solution. I know an extremly hard working landscaper that charges $15/hr - I figure for the cost of the rental I've got 12+ hours of sweatpower - and I'd need to dig by hand once I got to the pipe anyways so that's what I'm leaning toward.

Ghostmaker - I'm hoping the problem pitch will end at the cleanout outside (see pic earlier) so my digging will hopefully end right at that CO. You suggested moving the inside CO outside - since I already have one there I'm leaving the inside CO as is right? Seems like the more the merrier.

I will hopefully have a plumber buddy assist - if so I will try to get the sanitary swapped out w/a wye as suggested. Also will be getting the stiffer fernco, makes sense. 

The only thing I don't really understand is how the outside cleanout is connected. It's hard to see 5' down a 4" pipe but it looks like it's not setup like a clean upside-down 'T' as I would expect. It almost looks like there's a drop from the pipe to the house to right at the cleanout. When my kid flushed the toilet I saw her little turds go over a little waterfall of sorts and I can't tell how/where that stuff ends up going after that point as there's sort of a pool of water/stuff that I'm staring down into. I wish I could describe it better. 

Maybe the outside cleanout connection is messed up somehow too? Considering my house was apparently plumbed by a 1st year apprentice anything is possible....


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Just got the word - no warranty. Oh well.

For this kind of job, would a good plumber be able to do what needs to be done? The builder recommended a certain 'sewer contractor' ... is there a difference between a plumber and a sewer guy?


----------



## jimn (Nov 13, 2010)

You may need both . In my area sewer lines are handled by General contractors, septic tank maintenance and installers, excavation companies and larger plumbing companies that do sewer and drain work. I am not a pro, but I tend to agree with Ghost. You are going to have to excavate much more than you think to make this repair properly and make sure it will last. There would not likely be an warranty no matter what as earth movement etc that probably contributed to the issue would not be a covered peril .


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

I figured it was a longshot - as an aside it turns out the original sewer contractor passed away shortly after my home was built.

At this point I think I want to dig up the pipe to just beyond the outside cleanout and assess the situation then - I'm really hoping the pipe after the cleanout to the street is a solid, well pitched run - and if that's the case it should be fairly straightforward to fix.

Any danger in leaving the pipe open for a couple days before I'm able to get a pro in if needed? Obviously will board off the opening, but I'm thinking once it's all dug up I can probably pop the pipe back onto the current fernco to allow for temporary normal use?


----------



## ZTMAN (Feb 19, 2015)

Cowbell, this has been going on 20 days. Grab the shovel and start digging. No drink for you until the job is done


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

I like a well-laid plan.  I have hired help coming at the crack of dawn this Saturday to help me dig. I'll be back with updates!


----------



## ChuckF. (Aug 25, 2013)

Re "The only thing I don't really understand is how the outside cleanout is connected. It's hard to see 5' down a 4" pipe but it looks like it's not setup like a clean upside-down 'T' as I would expect."

I would not expect a 90deg Tee there. The job of the cleanout is to provide a place to clean out downstream of the cleanout using a roto-rooter. I would expect a y-shaped fitting there with the entry pointed downstream and then another fitting to transition to a pipe to go straight up. The idea is to drop your roto-rooter down and have it smoothly enter the main sewer pipe downstream.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

You might want to check on your home owners insurance before you start. They might cover this.


----------



## Olcrazy1 (May 28, 2013)

Chuck, I'd plumb the outside CO like this. Imagine to the right of the picture is running into the house. Take the cap just above grade.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

No go on the home insurance. I checked, and as usual none of this would be covered.

Operation dig has begun - my hired help flaked out so it's all on me. Luckily this is cathartic work - one shovelfull at a time, I'll get there eventually:









I have a question for anyone that might know. As I'm hacking through hard clay I'm wondering if there's anything else near the sewer that I might harm. Namely, my water supply. Here's a picture of the cleanout and water supply in the basement, can I be reasonably sure the pipe and the supply line are about as far apart from each other as they are here, or would they have been laid in the same ditch together? Any special precautions I should take? Should I maybe call 811 (call before you dig)? :vs_worry:

Thanks for the support. Taking a couple hours to eat and cool down and then I'll continue attacking.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Mar 2, 2013)

If the waterline is in the same ditch it should be 1 foot above the sewer. So be careful once your within a foot of that. If your digging 5 foot down it really is not a hand dig job. See if you can hire an excavator.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

Was quoted $400 to excavate. And wouldn't they need to stop with the machinery at the water line if it's in the same ditch? Happy to do it by hand as long as I don't wreck something. Reassessed the depth, probably just over 4' at the wall. Close to 5' by the cleanout.


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm at 2.5ft now. four hours and I'll be there.


----------



## York v45 (Feb 23, 2014)

Well, how did it go? How long did you dig before you hired the excavator?


----------



## MoreCowbell70 (Apr 14, 2015)

York v45 said:


> Well, how did it go? How long did you dig before you hired the excavator?


Hah - you guys are funny. It took approximately 5 hours total to get to this:









I put in a few buckets to crusher and tamped down until it felt like a concrete floor - this will never happen again in my lifetime. Called in a plumber, took under and hour to fix everything up nice and tight.

All said & done for under $300. Not horrible.

Thanks for the support!


----------



## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

That's fantastic. Thanks for the update.


----------



## York v45 (Feb 23, 2014)

Well done! You're a tougher man than I am. I would have headed straight to the rental yard.


----------

