# tile shower replacement with new tile



## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.

This method is what I use most frequently---Check with Schluter about their premade pan and surface membrane---

You have a heated floor right now---hydronic---how is that built? If you can stick with the hot water heat you have your heating question---is the floor in good shape right now? No cracked tiles or loose grout?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

One concern I would have is that old in floor heating.
It was common years ago to just install copper tubing and pore the concrete around it.
Copper reacts with copper and will leak at some point.
Several of the Frank Lloyd Wright homes were done this way and all of then failed.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The floor in both of these bathrooms is sill in solid condition, and the grout seems to be in place for the most part. There are several stress cracks that run across each bathroom floor, that would indicate a high floor joist underneath. Everything is 35+ years old and in need of replacement, and I figured it would be a good time to replace the subfloor heating system. 

Someone mentioned a shower pan, are these good long term solutions? 

I believe using mortar, thin set and tile would be the best, long term, long lasting, leak free shower drain floor, but I am open to all suggestions!

When you install the membrane over the previously sloped mortar, what holds it in place? And then, what goes on top of the membrane? Thin set and tile? It seems like it could shift and separate over time? I take it you DO NOT anchor the membrane anywhere that needs to hold water, because you do not want to puncture it, leading to leaks in the future, so that means it is anchored at the drain, and up high on the wall, and the back side of the curb. This means the membrane is floating, is it not? What holds in place for the next thirty years?

Aren't there new subfloor heating systems that are powered by electricity vice hot water re circulation? It would be nice to have the option to program when the floor gets heated, and then maybe save in heating costs by not heating the floors during other times. I definitely want to do this part right, I am only doing this job once.

One and done!

Thanks again for all the comments, I'm all ears at this point.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm in NC, just south of the Tidewater area.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

There are many electric heating methods for floors----all seem to work well and can be controlled by a thermostat or timer---

I like the economy of hot water heat and would consider updating the coils and perhaps adding a separate zone for the bath.

Did you read the link in my previous post? Preslope first--then clamp drain and membrane---then deck mud to form the base for the tile---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

oh'mike said:


> There are many electric heating methods for floors----all seem to work well and can be controlled by a thermostat or timer---
> 
> I like the economy of hot water heat and would consider updating the coils and perhaps adding a separate zone for the bath.
> 
> Did you read the link in my previous post? Preslope first--then clamp drain and membrane---then deck mud to form the base for the tile---


Yes, Mike, I did read/view the link. It seems like after the mortar has cured, and the membrane simply lays on top of the cured mortar, the membrane is held in place by gravity, and the drain clamp, and where its tacked around the walls and curb. It just seems like a delamination waiting to happen, because it is never really bonded together from the beginning. What goes on top of the membrane, prior to the tile?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Look at the link again---after the membrane a layer of deck mud is placed over the membrane---let me look at the link again----


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Look at the last four pictures in the link--this shows the deck mud and curb ---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, the membrane is sandwiched between two layers of deck mud, the deck mud in those pictures looks to be dry, is that normal? What is the difference between deck-mud and mortar? it looks the same. I guess they will have all of these supplies at HD or Lowes? Is that drain a special, adjustable drain? 

So the drain pan gets deck-mud, and the walls and ceiling get backer board, then the tiles go down with thin-set, and eventually grouted. Is there a special thin-set for the walls and the ceiling, more of an adhesive? Is there a special grout for showers?

As far as the floor heating, I figured during the tile removal process, I would be removing the previous membrane, coils, deck-mud and everything else above the wood floor structure, and install all new. Does that sound right?

Thanks!


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I'll cover the deck mud first----deck mud is a dry sort of mix---you can use masons mortar or mix your own according to the recipe in the article --

The mix is wet only to the point that it will form a ball when you pack it like a snow ball---the deck mud is packed into the pan to form using a level and a wood float or board---high spots are shaved off with a steel trowel.

The curb uses 'fat mud'---which is a wetter mix than the deck mud---look at that article again.

Walls,floor and ceiling will use a good grade of powdered modified thinset.

As to grout? I use Latacretes epoxy grout for most showers---you might consider it--however, if done wrong the epoxy grout will ruin the job---so read the instructions first.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks Mike, your info is helping me to understand how this project will be completed. What about that drain in the link? Do I have to replace the current drain and install a new one? I guess I'll understand that drain better after I remove the old shower deck. Tomorrow I go to work with a hammer and a chisel.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The drain is a membrane clamp drain---sold at the Home Depot---however, I get mine at the plumbing sipply house--there I get one with a heavy cast square cover--much easier to set tile to a square cover.

Expect to change the P-trap as well as the drain set----that is an old shower and the piping may be in need of updating.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, I removed the shower wall tile & backerboard, ceiling tile & backerboard and floorpan, which is a soft heavy metal, I think it's lead sheet metal. I will remove the bathroom wall and floor tile tomorrow. One more day and the hard part is done! The demolition part of the job.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The floor structure appears to be in good condition, without any evidence of leakage, so I guess that's good news.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The plumbing seems to be OK, I guess I should replace this valve while I have access to it. I need to replace it with a high quality unit that will last another thirty five years like the original. Who make makes quality plumbing? I prefer to avoid anything made in China.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Now that I have removed the membrane and drain fitting, I understand how the drain fitting works. Four bolts attach it to the plumbing, while sandwiching the membrane. It is a two piece unit, with the base being bolted down, then the second upper plate can be rotated to increase or decrease its height, so as to allow for floor pan/ tile thickness.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Now you are ready to work on the new shower----I use Moen and Delta mixers----

What is the drain pipe made of? If it is copper or galvanized steep--replace the P-trap with PVC----


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm pretty sure the sewage/gray water plumbing is all PVC, it was crusty and messy in that shower yesterday, I did not clean and inspect the drain fitting, by the time I wrestled that lead membrane into a small enough shape to fit through the window, I was whooped!

After the wrestling match with the shower membrane, I hopped on the lawn mower to cut the grass, before the forecast rain. Unfortunately my left rear tire went flat on the mower, with the unfinished lawn awaiting my attention, with looming rain.

I'm planning on a dump run and a stop at the mower shop this morning, I really want to finish the grass before its too tall.

Having said that, I might not get to the remaining tile removal today.

The lead membrane was strong enough to hold its shape, by nailing it to the studs only. Do I need to install some wood between the studs to provide strong walls for the new membrane to attach to? Since the new membranes are flimsy unlike the lead. How far up the walls should the membrane extend? 12-18"? I seem to remember seeing that in the link you provided, I will view it against after I get this lawn under control.

Thanks for the help Mike!


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.

I usually go up the wall about 10" to 12"--no need for blocking --you want the stud bays open so you can fold and tuck the membrane into the open bays---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, I removed the toilet, sink & cabinet and the remaining tile on the walls. The only tile left is on the floor. I went up in the attic and turned off the water valves, there was one on each side of the pump, and one on the return. The plumbing in the attic for this floor heat system is PVC. I guess there are two lines behind the drywall feeding the underfloor system. Is there anything I need to do or be carefully about as I remove the remaining tile, thinset and hot water heating system? I know there will be some water leakage at some point when I break the lines. I'm planning on ripping it all out tomorrow. Thanks!


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

This is where the Cabinet sat.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

This is where the toilet sat.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

This stuff is about two inches thick.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I went to HD to look at tile with my wife. I wanted to give her a chance to pick the color tile, and I wanted to new control valve for the shower. They had Moen, Delta and American Standard, among others. My wife liked the American Standard style and appearance,so I asked the salesman where American Standard products are made, and his reply was in the USA. So that's what I bought.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I open the box to make sure it will fit and do what I want it to do, and there is a sticker on the valve that says made in Mexico.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I want a high quality valve that will not fail, is this valve a high quality valve? I am only doing this job once, at least that's the plan. Should I return this and buy a Moen or Delta?


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## redman88 (Oct 5, 2012)

Axhammer said:


> I went to HD to look at tile with my wife. I wanted to give her a chance to pick the color tile, and I wanted to new control valve for the shower. They had Moen, Delta and American Standard, among others. My wife liked the American Standard style and appearance,so I asked the salesman where American Standard products are made, and his reply was in the USA. So that's what I bought.


Really you believed the guy at HD


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Axhammer said:


> I want a high quality valve that will not fail, is this valve a high quality valve? I am only doing this job once, at least that's the plan. Should I return this and buy a Moen or Delta?


Take a look at Symmons and take a look at a plumbing supply house. Can't say for sure, but some manufacturers make products specifically for the big box stores and the quality is not the same.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Axhammer said:


> I want a high quality valve that will not fail, is this valve a high quality valve? I am only doing this job once, at least that's the plan. Should I return this and buy a Moen or Delta?



Yes--return that and get Moen or Delta---you will not be sorry---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I still have not decided on which floor heating system to use. Is there any reason, or should I try salvage the system that is still in place? I was planning on ripping it all out and replacing it. I am going to HD to replace my valve later this morning. After I get the valve replaced, the next step will be to remove the remaining tile/thinset/and subfloor heat plumbing. Can I save it or should I rip it out and start with an all new system?


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## Arsinek (Aug 13, 2012)

Wow, this all looks very familiar. Im in the middle of doing 2 bathrooms myself.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I went to HD and got my Moen valve, also confirmed they have the membrane, mortar mix, and all the other materials nessessary to do this job. I'm going to a local plumbing supply store to get a square drain valve. Today the valve gets soldered in place, and the remaining tile is getting removed, thanks for all the help everyone!

Now where did I put my hammer?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If the old system is working well and the tile is still sound---you may be safe tiling right over the old floor--Just a thought---How old is the existing system? What are the heating coils made of?


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

That's the question? What are the coils made of? The house is 35 years old, built in 1978.

The system works fine as far as I can tell, I just want to be maintenance free for another 35 years.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I guess I'll try to expose whats under the tile to see what it is, before I commit to actually removing it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

If that is the case--replace with PEX or consult with you nearest hydronic heating supplier for the proper stuff---there are spacer blocks available to hold the tubing in place before you pour a new top coat---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

What is PEX? That must be the mix or substance that holds the water coils in place under the thin set and tile.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

PEX is the plastic pipe that the water runs through---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

OK, the floor had copper tubbing under the tile, and some kind of mortar mix. The top of the rafters are flush with the top of what is visible now. They must have installed some structure mid span of the rafters to support the mortar mix that is still in place between the rafters. I guess they did this to lower the floor some, so that after adding the 2" of mortar mix to house the copper tubing, it would not be too high. There are some considerable high spots I'll have to deal with.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Here is one of the high spots


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Another


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I loosely coiled the copper tubing and layed it in the shower while I was removing the tile floor. Tomorrow I need to go up into the attic and figure out how to terminate the supply & return for these lines.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

This is where the lines exit under the drywall. It looks like larger tubing was used behind the drywall, and pitched down and soldered where it exits the wall and used to enter the mortar mix.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Another view


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I forgot to mention. There was a foil-like paper that separated the surface that is now visible, and the thick layer of mortar/copper coils, and tile buildup. The floor construction consisted of two separate layers of a concrete/mortar type of mix. I am planning on using an electric blanket type of floor heating. I like the idea of being able to control temps and schedule heat cycles. Tomorrow after figuring out how to terminate the copper lines in the attic, I'm going to figure out what those high spots are, and measure how much I want to raise the floor level to match the hardwood floors. Then I need to figure out if I should.mortar-down a layer of backer board to smooth and level everything, while adding thickness to achieve the desired height. I also need to do more research on installing the new
heat blankets.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

What are you going to do for floor heat?

To level the existing floor--do not 'mortar down backer board'----that method is a failure---simply prime the existing--then pour self leveling compound---

If you are using electric floor heat---lay out your coils,then embed them in the self leveling compound---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I want to go with electric heat, the style that uses a mat imbedded in the thin set under the tile. I like the idea of having a control unit to dictate when and how much heat is produced. Is there a particular brand that is better than the others? The floor can be raised up to two inches, that was one reason for using mortar?(thin set) and backer board to raise and level the subfloor. Can I still use the backer board after the self leveling compound? I'd like to get the level of the tile close to the hardwood floors.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The shower pan floor is in pretty good condition, I don't think it saw any leakage over the last 35 years. The worst damage or deterioration of the shower floor pan is adjacent to the drain. I was going to buy a square drain today, but all the good plumbing supply stores are closed on Saturdays. I'm planning on going first thing Monday, to get a new drain. This pan is 33" x 55". It would be easy to cut a piece of 3/4" plywood with a hole in it and install it over the existing floor. Since I am replacing the drain, it would not be hard to readjust the drain height to account for the new floor height. Does that sound like a worthwhile effort?


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

So far all discussions have been concerning the shower floor pan and the bathroom floor. I have never tiled a shower before. The way I understand the process, I need to install backer board in the gutted shower, then tape and thin set seal all seams. What is next? Are the tiles simply glued to the backer board? The way it came apart it looked like the backer board had a wire mesh or expanded steel layer attached to the backer board, and then the tile was attached to the mesh with what looked like thin set. Thanks in advance?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Backer board can not be installed over a concrete base---if you wish to add height to the floor, more cement based products must be used---for a shallow layer,self leveling compound is usually used.

When a bed deeper than an an inch is needed , deck mud is usually applied over a fresh layer of wet thinset.

I will post a link to building a shower with a liner----there is no need to build up the floor under the pan---yoou can do that with the deck mud as you build it--
How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.

I usually waterproof the walls with Red Guard or Hydroban before tiling---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

1- Do you think my current shower pan plywood condition is OK, or should I cut a 33"x55" piece to put on top of the old plywood? 

2- In pictures 4 and 6 (of your link) the drain base is sitting above the shower pan plywood, by about 1/2 " or the desired thickness of the mortar bed (in the area surrounding the drain), correct? This way, when the mortar bed is finished with the correct slope, and the membrane is layed in place, the top surface of the bottom flange is at the correct level and can make a clean seal with the underside of the membrane when the top flange is bolted down on the top side of the membrane. I'm just making sure I have the procedure correct!

3- I'll use self leveling compound to get it level before I can make the determination whether or not it needs to be raised more. I guess That decision will come after the shower pan is finished. If I do raise it more after the self leveling compound, I can use the same mix as used on the shower pan?

Did you post the shower walls link? Or did I miss it?

I have finals this week, and then I have a week off. 

I am hoping to finish this project in the next couple weeks, I really appreciate the help and guidance!


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I cut and removed the old drain. Put down a new sheet of 3/4" plywood, and installed the shower ceiling backer board. I would have installed the new drain, but I cannot find the 2' section of 2" PVC and coupling I bought the other day. I guess I'll be heading to HD in the AM.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

New plywood.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Ceiling backer board installed.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Looking good so far----did you read the link I posted on building a shower ?How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I capped off the copper water lines that provided the heat to the subfloor, since I'm installing an electric system back into this bathroom. I left the lines feeding the bathroom on the other side of this wall, since I'm not sure when I'll have time to remodel it.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Check out how the system is piped----if some other room is on that circuit--you may need to connect those pipes together so the water goes to the next room---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

That's why I opened up the drywall there, so I could see what's in the wall. In the pic you can see two vertical lines, one is a supply from the hot water heater and the other is the return, back to the hot water heater in the attic. They each have a T fitting at the bottom, feeding a bathroom floor on each side of the wall. After capping them I ran the water pump and put my hands on each side. Initially one side was warm and the other cold. After several minutes, they both got warmer. This was my leak check as well.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

oh'mike said:


> Looking good so far----did you read the link I posted on building a shower ?How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.


When I click on that link it goes to the "how to build a shower pan" link. I don't see anything about tiling a shower. I watched one on youtube this morning, but I'd like to see more.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You should be fine----my bath is on the same line as a bed room---that's why I suggested you check---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I finished installing the drain, installed some vapor barrier and some backer board, and fabricated a couple nooks. I plan on pouring mortar mud, and getting the pan shaped in th morning. Then I get to take the afternoon off and go see a movie with the family.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

One of the nooks.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I forgot to replace the shower head pipe while I had the system drained yesterday, I need to drain it so I can replace the pipe, before I put up the backer board on this wall.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Ready for mud, in the morning, as soon as I can get the tar paper and expanded steel mesh in place. I'm hoping to be finished working on it by noon.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Your use of the word 'pour' has me concerned--pack is the right word---deck mud is rather dry and is packed---and shaped with the edge of a trowel----


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, I used the wrong word I suppose. I saw a video that claims when you can take a hand full of the dryish mix, and pack it together like a snowball, it is at a good consistency. Anyway, I'm getting ready to turn-to, I'll post up some picks after its "packed & troweled". Thanks for the input mike, I appreciate it!


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I used two and a half bags of 4/1 mortar mud. I mixed a baba and a half hoping it would be enought to do the job. I had to mix a second batch when I realized it Wasent enough. I think the second batch was a Lille wetter than the first, as a lot of water floated to the surface. I sprinkled some dry mix on top after I was finished.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Final results.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

That is what? the preslope? 

Did you read the link I posted?

Yikes---next step is the liner---folded --no cuts---

then the durrock----after that the pan mud---but jezz---that stuff should be as dry as beach sand---read the link----just enough water to dampen the mortar enough to stick together when packed like a snow ball---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, it is ready for the membrane, same stage as pic #9 in your link. I put a level on all sides and I'm happy with the way it turned out. I better run to HD in the morning, I used two and a half bags (of three) so far. How thick should the top layer be? I think I'll get three more bags, better to have and not need, than to need and it have. Plus I have to do the step. Will I be able to walk on this tomorrow? Or should I wail a couple days?


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

So far I happy with it, I'll run the shower after the membrane is installed to see how well it drains.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

1 1/2" to 2" is the typical depth of the deck mud ---


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Installed the membrane, and the rest of the backer board in the shower. Next I need to install the backer board in the shower entrance jamb, tape & mud all seams and pack the final layer bedding mortar, and form the curb.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Next I get to replace my vintage medicine cabinet.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Remember when companies had there own line of products, and the stuff was made in factories in the USA and it lasted for than 2-3 years.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

What are the odds of finding a medicine cabinet made in USA?


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The pan is ready for the final mud. As soon as I'm done with a little chow break, I mixing and packing some mud or bedding mortar.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

It's done, I think it turned out OK, I guess when I put a level on it in the morning I'll know.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

Overhead view.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I didn't work on it at all today. I did order a new medicine cabinet, light and fan. I also bought a new drill and tile saw. I have a little backer board in the nooks to finish up, and then tape and seal the seams with thinset. Then I have some self-leveling underlayment to use on the bathroom floor, it's 4.5' x 6' and its pretty rough, mostly hight spots (joist tops). Anyway, I have a full day planned tomorrow, and a visit to the tile store on Monday.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I taped and mudded (thinset) all seams in the shower. I mixed and poured two bags of self-leveling underlayment in the bathroom. Other than one spot, the new floor looks pretty good. 

In the morning I'm going to the tile store to pick out my tile, and a marble door strip, so I can start looking at the end height-requirement to get the tile to the desired height.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

The self leveling compound did a nice job, I could tile on it now if I wanted to, but I need to raise it more first. My toilet flange is too high, I take it it should be level or flush with the top of the tile. I still have the heat mat to install. I'm open to suggestions on raising the floor another inch.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I have received my Thermo-Tile radiant floor heating mat and thermostat. I also received my new medicine cabinet and light. I went to the tile store to pick up my new stone tile, and associated materials, including six bags of quick-level, to raise the floor about an inch and a half, leaving another half an inch for the 3/8 tile and thin- set. Does that sound right? I am planning on gaining a half inch of floor height with 3/8" thick 12x12 stone tile and thin-set.


I applied some red guard inside the shower tonight, should I put it on the shower pan? Seems like it wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure whether or not that is the intended application.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I put down the Thermo-soft radiant floor heat mat, and two sensors, then reinstalled the cabinet and flooded the floor with quick-lite. I put down a total of four bags in two different pours. Tomorrow I'll cut and install the threshold stone with thinset, and then one more pour towards the door entrance, and the bathroom floor will be ready for tile.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

I think I have the floor height back where it needs to be adjacent to the toilet. I'll lay a couple tiles around the flange to see how it looks.


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## Axhammer (Mar 29, 2009)

http://www.diychatroom.com/f84/installing-new-stone-tile-my-bathroom-185484/

See link above...

I took this project to the tiling forum looking for more feedback, but that seems to have had little affect.

Anyway, I'm going to start on the shower walls this morning, and I'll update the thread in the tiling forum. Hopefully it will help someone out one day. Thanks for all the input so far!


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