# Bathroom Remodel Questions



## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Either move the insulation or let it fall with the drywall and replace it. Your choice. No greenboard... was used years ago and was found to be useless. Use mold free drywall everywhere. This fan is a basic fan. Something like fantec will be much much better. a good fan is critical. Place it on a timer which starts when the light is used so the fan always gets used. Do not place it over the shower. A covered recessed light can be used over the shower. Not sure where and why you intend to use plastic. Kraft faced insulation is fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

where do I buy fantech fans? i am doing the bulk of my purchases at Lowe's...

I live in Minnesota, and we have extremely cold winters here, so I was told I needed a plastic vapor barrier on the outside walls


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

in that climate you are correct... use the plastic on the outside walls. Lowes can order these fans for you or order them online. You will not even hear them at all and they will pull twice the moisture out then the Broan models.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

where would I order them online. I am going to Lowe's tonight, which one would you recommend for an average sized bathroom...

also, where should I install it? in the center of the room?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

install between the toilet and the shower/tub. Just search for Fantec. you will find many good suppliers. the fan is installed in the attic inline with the ducting. Only a intake louver goes in the bath ceiling.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

Well I went ahead and ordered a Broan 150 CFM Bath Fan...here is the link to it.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn action=productDetail&productId=207236-14-QTXE150

I hope I made an OK choice. I live in the middle of nowhere and the nearest distributor of Fantech fans was 3 hours away. Will I be ok with this fan? My bathroom is 10x10


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

it will work fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

do you cover the fan unit in the attic with insulation? is it ok to completely cover it up after installation, or do you leave it uncovered? I am going to be using insulation flexible duct to the roof.

Also, can you go straight up from the fan, or should i run the duct straight for a few feet before going up to the roof? 

Do you just lay the fexible duct on the ceiling drywall or do you fasten it to the ceiling joists somehow?

sorry for all of the stupid questions.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

all good questions and you may find many different answers. I use flex duct about 2' laid flat in the ceiling. This keeps the run from being straight out in case of minor water drops entering from above. Then I transition to 4" metal with a 90 ell and go straight up thru the roof. You can insulate completely around the fan.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

Can I use the flex duct all the way to the roof opening? Can i just run the flex duct about 2 feet, then make a gradual turn up towards the roof?

I got some radiator type clamps to connect the flex duct to the fan, and to the roof, will this work? How can I be sure that the duct stays connected to the roof?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

yes you can do it that way. Flex duct has more drag, but as long as the run is short (less than 12') you will be fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

OK, thanks for all the help so far, but I have some more questions....

The tub surround that I bought says to install the surround directly over the studs. I was told by a couple of people to not install it over the studs, but instead put cement board behind it, then install the surround over that. *How do you match up the top drywall that butts up to the surround?*

*Also, what kind of drywall should I use in the bathroom? Should I use all green drywall, or just regular drywall?*

*When installing drywall, how far off the floor do you keep it? I will be puting new plywood on the floor, then a cement backer board, then ceramic tile.*

*Do you put the cement board under the tub and vanity as well, or tile up to the vanity and tub?*


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

to drywall at top question: This depends on your surround. If it says to mount directly on the studs then do so. This would mean the to top is built in such a way the drywall will sit above it. Just caulk this seam. 

I would put the CBU on the entire floor (not under the tub) as well as the tile. Then set the vanity. Now it is easier to change this latter if needed and the height remains correct.

Do not use green board. Use mold free (paperless) drywall in the entire bathroom. Use Zinsser's perma white paint for primer and top coats which adds mildicide to prevent any mold.

Drywall should be kept off the floor. I keep it up 1". This prevents any water from wicking up the sheet.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

*Should the drywall be 1" above where the tile will be, or one inch above the plywood floor?*

*Do you put the drywall up, then the cement board, and tile last?*

*so just put the cement board right up to the tub, or leave a space? same with the tile?*

and yes the surround has a lip so the drywall sits right on top of it. *do you leave a little gap, or sit it right on the surround?*

*Thanks!*


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

drywall 1" above tile. Baseboard will cover this gap.

drywall, cbu then tile

leave a 1/4" gap. fill tub after tile and grout. No grout in corners or tub edge. caulk these areas with color caulking to match grout which you will find at the tile supplier.

leave gap above surround (1/4") which allows space for caulking to grab.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

OK, I might have changed my mind again! lol

How much more work is it to tile the tub surround instead of buying one? How high up the wall do you tile on the 3 sides of the tub surround walls? do you put the cement backer board right over the studs on the walls, and how high up?

do you butt the cement board right to the top lip of the tub? do you have to seal the tile after grouting and stuff?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

tile will take a day, tub surround 2 hours.

tile up as high as you want, usually about right below the shower head. CBU slighly lower so the CBU / drywall seam gets covered with the tile

keep the CBU 1/4" up from tub edge

tape CBU seams and coat with waterproofing like Redguard

Seal with grout sealer. Caulk edges and corners.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

Tile will take longer every time you have to clean it...

Regarding the insulation in your ceiling -- if you have easy access to the area, you might want to move it with a rake. You can also just let it drop into the room. It makes a mess. Wear a mask. That's what we did when we took the living room ceiling out -- just let it fall.

Don't try to put it back though -- just get new. It's pretty cheap and moving it kind of mats it down. It doesn't work as well, and you really want good insulation in a bathroom.

Regarding the fan, the instruction manual should tell you if you can put insulation on it. More particularly, it will definitely tell you if there are required clearances.

Do you need to take a bathroom fan through the roof? Around here they usually either go through a wall (like a dryer) or end inside the soffit. That ending in the soffit leaves me uncomfortable, but a licensed guy who does a lot of them tells me he's never seen any problem as a result.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

so if i just move the insulation in the attic, and then spread it back out when im done, that will be ok right?

Also, I cant go out the wall since it is only a single story, and there isnt enough room, and I live in Minnesota, and I don't like the thought of hot moisture going out my soffit and rotting out the wood or going back into the attic.

I would much rather go out the roof.

How hard is it to keep tile clean in a shower? is it worth going that route instead of a surround?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

tile is not hard to keep clean. The fan will help a lot there also. What I do is use a squeegee after each shower to wipe the tile and glass door down. It takes only a few seconds. Never had to do more to keep it looking new for many years now. Also seal the grout twice helps and should always be done.


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

You could spread it back, but it won't be as good, and insulation is really cheap. If it was me I'd put new in.

My parents house has tile surrounds on steel tubs. The grout is always nasty looking. Whether it's worth the extra hassle depends on how much you want it vs. how much you don't like cleaning it. How hard it is to keep clean depends in part on your water. It also depends on the size of the tiles -- bigger tiles have fewer grout lines.

We have a one piece fiberglass tub/surround in the bathroom we just put in. It's not something we use on a regular basis, so for us it would have been silly to put in tile. In our main bathroom we have a fiberglass shower. Tile would look nicer, but it would have cost more and taken more time. 

If you have tile you have to scrub the grout lines individually. Or spray them with heavy cleaners.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

I have heard of some tub surrounds leaking where the surround meets the tub...

man im just not sure what i want to do...

I have blown in insulation in the attic, so its not that easy to replace, have to buy the insulation, rent the blower, and do that entire process over again.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

Is it ok to gut the bathroom down to the studs and still use the bathroom for taking showers? It gets pretty steamy in there, but I almost have to use it while doing the work, or is this something I should not do?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Should be no problem unless water is splashing out and sitting on the floor. Any studs that get wet will dry. The moisture problem happens when water cannot escape.( a sealed wall)


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

ok so if the walls are exposed, it wont hurt if the moisture from the shower gets into the walls and maybe some into the attic for a little while?

it is our only bathroom, so we need to do this on the fly...


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

I cannot see how it gets into the attic. This would have insulation which should not get wet. Seems like a better solution will be to tack some 6 mil plastic to the ceiling and walls leaving it overhang the tub or shower base edge.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

what kind of grout sealer do you use? Lowes has something called 'Grout Boost', you add it to the grout instead of water, and it says you never have to seal the tile again.

Also, would you tile the tub surround all the way to the ceiling, or only about 6 feet up, then dry wall the rest of the way up to the ceiling? which would look nicer?

if i tear down everything but the walls, will that keep the moisture out of the attic, as long as the ceiling is still up... remember i do not have a moisture barrier up until i tear down the old drywall ceiling and replace it.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

use a grout sealer not some short cut that low end supplies like Lowes has to offer. More work, but something that will work. Apply it twice... with 24 hours between applications. Only way to control moisture is with a quality properly sized exhaust fan. Tile up to the ceiling or the shower head is just a matter of your taste. Either will look fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

so what brands of grout sealer do you recommend?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

these are pretty basic and I suspect whatever is available at your local tile supplier will be fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

does it matter if it is water based or not?

also, can I install the new fan into the old ceiling, then gut the entire bathroom, that way I will have a working fan during the remodel process, or is it best to wait until the new drywall is installed?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

I would wait. Maybe use a window fan to exhaust during construction. Water based is fine.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

I was just reading the instalation manual for my broan bathroom fan and they recommend using regular duct instead of flex duct.

I already bought the flex duct, will it still be ok to use the flex duct? I will have a run of about 8-10 feet to the roof


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

It is okay just not as good as the steel duct. The flex has more resistance. 10 foot is close to the limit to be effective.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

so you think I should use regular duct instead? I would then have to insulate it myself.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

no you should use flex duct first for about 12" then tie to a 4" round 90 ell then up through the roof with 4" round metal pipe. The flex isolates the fan's vibrations. The 90 ell keeps any water entering the duct from outside the ability to get into the bathroom. The duct seems should then be sealed with metal duct tape and insulated.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

do you think my 150 CFM fan will be too big for my bathroom...

the bathroom is 10 feet long, and where the tub is the width of the room is 8 feet, but the rest of the room is only 5 feet wide...does it hurt to have your fan oversized?

sorry for all the stupid questions lol, but this is my first DIY project in my house, and I want to do it right


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

it will not hurt to be oversized


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## LeviDIY (Apr 16, 2009)

Bob - I assume the invoice is in the mail? This thread is a nice back and forth


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

LeviDIY said:


> Bob - I assume the invoice is in the mail? This thread is a nice back and forth


Too broke now to buy new invoice forms.:no:


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

OK next question...

What kind of primer and paint should I use in the bathroom? I want something that is really mold and mildew resistant. 

Also, do I use a different kind for the ceiling vs. the walls?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

Use Zinsser's Perma White. The same paint is used for the primer and both top coats. It will give the most protection since the mildicide is an active ingredient in the paint the continues to migrate to the surface continuing to kill mold and mildew longer than any other solution. You can have it tinted to any color you want. Use the same for the ceiling and walls.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

"the bathroom is 10 feet long, and where the tub is the width of the room is 8 feet, but the rest of the room is only 5 feet wide...does it hurt to have your fan oversized?" ----- It is about twice as big: http://www.efi.org/factoids/bathroom_sizing.html
It may hurt your pocket book pulling twice as much conditioned air from the house. You might want to shorten the bathroom clearance under the door or the higher negative pressure created will pull supply air from the crawl space (stinky) or attic space (scratchy) from the shower pipe hole and sink pipes. LOL It will strain if not enough air supply which taxes it and could shorten its life. 

As Bob said on the flex ducting, try not to use it for over 2' runs. Use one size bigger diameter than equal straight pipe. (2-10 times higher pressure loss). A lot more surface area to collect water from vapor exiting. (especially if not expanded) http://rockwallcontrols.com/Residential/?tag=air-ducting http://www.mmmfg.com/pdfs/True_Cost_of_Flex_10-27-06.pdf
Be safe, Gary


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

My local lumber yard did not have any moisture resistant or greenboard drywall, so I had to get regular drywall...

I am very worried this will cause problems later with mold and mildew. Will I be ok using regular drywall in my bathroom, or did I make a major mistake...

we already have the ceilings up with regular drywall


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## pyper (Jul 1, 2009)

Vikeologist said:


> My local lumber yard did not have any moisture resistant or greenboard drywall, so I had to get regular drywall...
> 
> I am very worried this will cause problems later with mold and mildew. Will I be ok using regular drywall in my bathroom, or did I make a major mistake...
> 
> we already have the ceilings up with regular drywall


My bathroom has regular drywall. I wish it had moisture resistant, but it is what it is. There doesn't seem to be any problem in my specific case, although I'm pretty big on running the fan when showering. I get occasional mold growing on the ceiling but I clean it off right away.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

so should I tear down the regular drywall and re-do it with moisture resistant drywall?

what about the walls, should I use moisture resistant on the walls, or just continue with the regular drywall? Thanks!


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## Haff (Sep 18, 2009)

Drywall is fairly cheap and now is the time to do it. Sure you might get away with a well sealed regular dryway, but why risk it?


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

wow, so I should tear it down and start over huh?


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

OK I am at the point of getting the subfloor ready before I have the tub installed.

I have what looks to be 2 layers of wood nailed as a subfloor in my bathroom. The floor was squeaky, so I screwed the subfloor to the floor joists.

What do I do next. *Do I install plywood over the top, and if so, how thick, and what kind? Do I put thinset in between the subfloor and the plywood? Do I screw the plywood into the joists or just to the subfloor only? Do I run the plywood all the way under where the new tub will be?*

After the plywood then do I install a cement board over the plywood, if so, *how thick? Do I install the cement board under the tub as well, or should I wait with the cement board until the tub is installed and just install it up to the side of the tub?*

Thanks!


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

if you have two layers of wood over the joists you may be fine. you need 1 1/8" of sub flooring. But what are these layers? Plywood (exterior grade for top level) should be used. If not you may want to remove one of the two layers and use one sheet of plywood. Even under the tub with this. Then use either 1/4" CBU or Ditra on the plywood prior to tiling. this does not go under the tub. So put the tub in after plywood is installed. Pl400 is used with screws or nails to lay the plywood. Thinset with approved screws is used for the cement backer. Modified thinset to set the Ditra with unmodified thinset to lay the tiles.


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## Vikeologist (Aug 2, 2006)

no there is no plywood. It looks to be some 3 inch wide boards...not sure if they are tongue and groove or not.

I already screwed this all down to the joists, can I add a layer of plywood over the 2 layers of wood flooring, then add the cement board over that, then the tile over that? how much space am I going to need for this?

how thick of plywood, then a 1/4 inch of cement board, then the tile


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

yes you can add 1 1/2" exterior grade plywood glued and screwed. Then 1/4" cement board set in thinset and screwed.


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