# nails vs screws



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds perfectly logical.


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## teflonphil (Mar 6, 2010)

That's what I would do, nail to hold in place so true and plumb, then go around and screw to secure.


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## Big Bob (Jul 27, 2007)

now you have done it !

I wonder when this will be required by code.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The best discussion I have read on the subject of nails vs. screws is chapter 7 of Gen. Tech. Rep. FPL–GTR–113. This paper was published by the Forest Products Laboratory in 1999, and Chapter 7 was written by *Lawrence A. Soltis. *If you can wade through all the formulas and technical discussion, you will find answers to every possible question about the strength of nails, screws, lag bolts, threaded connections, split rings, and a few more exotic fasteners. If this paper is not techical enough for you, I can point you to even more technical reports that explain in excruciating detail the theory of fasteners.

Google Forest Products Laboratory, and you can download this paper in PDF format at no charge. There will be a quiz in the morning.


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## Big Bob (Jul 27, 2007)

Daniel,
very good info, but they did not factor in gorilla glue! :laughing:


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Big Bob said:


> Daniel,
> very good info, but they did not factor in gorilla glue! :laughing:


Gorilla Glue is no good! It's almost impossible to get those big hairy beasts to hold still long enough for it to set up.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Some of my tricks I use when framing with nails: angle two nails 1-1/2" apart into the jack/stud combo, every 12" apart with opposing angles every pair, full length of the jack (holds together better while drying out during the building stages) and very helpful when installing doors when shimming against tight stud/jack joints; toe-nail the lower top plate into the header along it's length as well as face nailing through the king stud and lower top plate (angle nail all header end face nails at jacks); start nailing decking ply from the center outward, not to leave a void and poor glue contact; bend a single galv. nail in the middle by hitting with hammer for a 20-30* angle to drive at a toe-nail behind the barge rafters of the gable overhang to positive connect them in the caulking applied while assembling (it will follow the grain into the wood without exiting); toe-nail blocking into TJI's, never face nail to weaken top or bottom chords (against Manufacturer's instructions); drive a 10d nail at a 15* angle at each end of a wall to plumb and line, about 1-1/2" above inside edge, hooking string on one end, make a loop-twist with finger in loop 4-5 times before slipping it on the nail head, then pull it tight with one hand on major string, other on bitter end from loop to get tight, then wrap twice around nail head. Sight wall line from below from stud bay lining wall top plates with string line, nail brace. 

Be safe, Gary


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Daniel Holzman said:


> The best discussion I have read on the subject of nails vs. screws is chapter 7 of Gen. Tech. Rep. FPL–GTR–113. This paper was published by the Forest Products Laboratory in 1999, and Chapter 7 was written by *Lawrence A. Soltis. *If you can wade through all the formulas and technical discussion, you will find answers to every possible question about the strength of nails, screws, lag bolts, threaded connections, split rings, and a few more exotic fasteners. If this paper is not techical enough for you, I can point you to even more technical reports that explain in excruciating detail the theory of fasteners.
> 
> Google Forest Products Laboratory, and you can download this paper in PDF format at no charge. There will be a quiz in the morning.


That gave me a headache. All in all in is OK to drive a screw next to a nail?


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

dont think screws have been rated yet as a structural fastener for shear as nails have which if tru is a pity


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Certain screws are structurally rated, check out the Simpson web site, they have a series of structurally rated screws designed for use with their Strongtie framing brackets.

Personally I love using screws versus nails, they have fantastic pullout strength, and as long as the shank is appropriately sized, and the steel is the same as the equivalent nail steel, they are just as good in shear. And to answer the OPS, you certainly can drive a screw next to a nail, just keep them separated by at least 3 nail diameters and you are good to go. Also, bore a pilot hole in hard wood, the pilot hole should be the size of the screw root.

One little tip about screws. If you want to draw two boards together, make sure you drill an oversize pilot hole in the first board that is slightly larger than the thread diameter of the screw. Failure to do this will result in the screw locking up, and the boards will not draw together. Alternatively, drive a few nails to draw the boards together, then screw them together. Or, clamp the boards prior to installing the screw.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Daniel Holzman said:


> Certain screws are structurally rated, check out the Simpson web site, they have a series of structurally rated screws designed for use with their Strongtie framing brackets.
> 
> Personally I love using screws versus nails, they have fantastic pullout strength, and as long as the shank is appropriately sized, and the steel is the same as the equivalent nail steel, they are just as good in shear. And to answer the OPS, you certainly can drive a screw next to a nail, just keep them separated by at least 3 nail diameters and you are good to go. Also, bore a pilot hole in hard wood, the pilot hole should be the size of the screw root.
> 
> One little tip about screws. If you want to draw two boards together, make sure you drill an oversize pilot hole in the first board that is slightly larger than the thread diameter of the screw. Failure to do this will result in the screw locking up, and the boards will not draw together. Alternatively, drive a few nails to draw the boards together, then screw them together. Or, clamp the boards prior to installing the screw.


Wow, I did not know Simpson made screws. I remember hearing that they'd only allow nails in their connectors, such as joist hangers. Screws would be awesome 

And that "3 nail diameters apart" is the answer I was looking for. Thanks!


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

I bet their screws wont pass inspections without certification from an engineer on a residential build


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Boy I hate to be the one to bring up one silly little point----

To many fasteners in a stud will actually weaken the joint. 

I had what one taught to me long ago--More than three nails through the stud(2x4 ) is not good.


That still doesn't answer the screw or nail thing----Why?????--Mike----


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## Kevin M. (Nov 26, 2009)

Daniel Holzman said:


> Certain screws are structurally rated, check out the Simpson web site, they have a series of structurally rated screws designed for use with their Strongtie framing brackets.
> 
> Personally I love using screws versus nails, they have fantastic pullout strength, and as long as the shank is appropriately sized, and the steel is the same as the equivalent nail steel, they are just as good in shear. And to answer the OPS, you certainly can drive a screw next to a nail, just keep them separated by at least 3 nail diameters and you are good to go. Also, bore a pilot hole in hard wood, the pilot hole should be the size of the screw root.
> 
> ...


They make screws with thread and shank design to avoid "bridging." Mcfeelys sells them. 

Kevin


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

teflonphil said:


> That's what I would do, nail to hold in place so true and plumb, then go around and screw to secure.


 I have found that when driving nails that there is tendency for the hammer blows to move the material away from where you want it!
If you plan to use both screws and nails, I would suggest that the joint would be screwed first, then nailed secondly!
The screws would hold things in position, while being nailed.


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## Earnie (Jan 24, 2008)

If screws provide no shear strength, how can screws be used in metal framing construction?


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

Not to downtalk screws, but for most of framing, nails are adequate. Very few things require screws. Some of the new Simpson engineering components do require screws, which they provide. Strong Walls, hold-downs, etc etc. Any framing thing that really needs support from pulling apart(floor sheeting/stairs), a strong glue is required(sub-floor adhesive will hold more than 3/4" flooring will, when you try to pry it apart the flooring will come apart before the glue will separate from the joist and flooring) AND ring shank nails(have you ever tried pulling one of those!?)








And whoever said before that over nailing a stud weakens it, is 100% correct. Try overnailing a sheer wall, do you think the inspector will like that, saying that you did more than required? No, he won't. All fasteners are supposed to be at least 3" apart on a 3x member. Anything more than that is the opposite of helpful. Sheer strength is depleted. So putting a screw next to a nail? If you're made of money and you put in double studs throughout the whole framing of the house, then more power to you, do it, but if you aren't, then just stick to nails. If you're made of money, and want a good alternative, that would be 1/3 of the price, just use ring shank. Honestly, how many houses have you seen pull apart that were framed with nails? And if you have an answer greater than 0, how many houses framed with nails have you not seen pull apart... if this was anything less than a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance, code would call for something more.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

GarageDoorCente said:


> Not to downtalk screws, but for most of framing, nails are adequate. Very few things require screws. Some of the new Simpson engineering components do require screws, which they provide. Strong Walls, hold-downs, etc etc. Any framing thing that really needs support from pulling apart(floor sheeting/stairs), a strong glue is required(sub-floor adhesive will hold more than 3/4" flooring will, when you try to pry it apart the flooring will come apart before the glue will separate from the joist and flooring) AND ring shank nails(have you ever tried pulling one of those!?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, in a high windstorm/small tornado, are you saying that the nails don't pull out?


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

For those interested in a study of the pull out strength of various types of fasteners, check out the following study:

*HURRICANE LOSS REDUCTION​FOR​H​OUSING IN FLORIDA:​
ROOF SHEATHING FASTENER STUDY​A Research Project Funded by
The State of Florida Department of Community Affairs
Through Contract # 05RC-11-13-00-05-001​*PREPARED BY​T​HE INTERNATIONAL HURRICANE RESEARCH CENTER​
FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY

http://www.ihc.fiu.edu/

Very interesting study that analyzes the performance of various types of fasteners under high wind conditions. Typical nails perform very poorly. I have personally performed approximately 180 inspections of structures damaged by wind and water after hurricanes Katrina and Rita. Roof sheathing attached using common nails performed very poorly. Ring shank nails definitely did better, but best were structurally rated screws, unfortunately rarely used for a wide variety of cultural and historical reasons. I expect the same issues that impact roof performance under hurricane conditions would apply to tornadoes, and since most of the U.S. is subject to high wind from hurricanes, tornadoes or straight line wind shear, I would think that roof sheathing attached using properly installed screws would be a no brainer, but there seems to be resistance.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

Daniel Holzman said:


> For those interested in a study of the pull out strength of various types of fasteners, check out the following study:
> 
> *HURRICANE LOSS REDUCTION​FOR​H​OUSING IN FLORIDA:​
> ROOF SHEATHING FASTENER STUDY​A Research Project Funded by
> ...


Does roof failure typically precede wall failure, or can it be vice versa?


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Numerous studies indicate that the damage to a house increases slowly until the shell is breached. This is fully consistent with my experience. Even a poorly constructed roof will sustain mostly shingle damage in winds up to 80 mph. At around 100 mph, the shingles start to come off, but if the sheathing is screwed down it remains in winds up to 125 mph if the shape of the roof is good. The best roof shape seems to be hip, followed by gable, and the worst is flat.

If the windows break, or the door blows in, the whole house will be torn apart in winds of as little as 75 mph. So the priorities in resisting wind damage seem to be:

1. Make sure you use 5/8" or better yet 3/4" plywood screwed to the rafters.
2. A hip roof > gable roof > flat roof.
3. Architectural shingles, heavy weight (140 lb) work better than standard 3 tab shingles. Nails are fine on shingles as long as you use 5 of them per shingle in hurricane country, and ring shank are better than common galvanized. Expect to lose most of your shingles if the wind gets over 120 mph anyway, as long as the sheathing stays on you are OK.
4. Install robust shutters, preferably steel, over all the windows, and make sure they are capable of resisting wind blown debris up to design speed. There are sacrificial shutters that are very good, designed to absorb impact and get replaced after a hurricane.
5. The best performance I have seen on outside walls came from full length, 3/4 inch thick plywood screwed to the studs. I have some amazing photos of a series of houses, most of which were destroyed, and there is one house that survived 120 mph wind plus flooding because it was built using plywood sheathing screwed to the 2x6 studs that extended from the bottom of the sill plate to the top plate.
6. Got to have hurricane clips for the rafters, I like the Simpson rafter ties. They seem to work OK with the Simpson nails, got to make sure you use all the nails, I have a photo of a house that got destroyed by wind because half the nails were missing from the connectors.

As to which goes first, the roof or the walls, it depends on which one is the weak link. If no shutters, the windows will blow out or be destroyed by debris impact, then the house disintegrates. If the roof is not tied down with hurricane clips, it goes pretty quickly, followed almost immediately by the rest of the house. If the sheathing is attached using common nails, or the nails missed the rafters, the entire roof can come off in one piece. I have a photo of a church in Biloxi MS that lost half the roof because half of the roof was improperly nailed into the rafters. The rafters were still there, just no sheathing, and of course the contents of the church were destroyed.


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## tpolk (Nov 7, 2009)

Earnie said:


> If screws provide no shear strength, how can screws be used in metal framing construction?


the screws holding structural elements in metal framing are more of a lag than a screw. They also make nails for fastening plywood sheathing to structural metal framing that are near impossible to pull out


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

Tonglebeak said:


> So, in a high windstorm/small tornado, are you saying that the nails don't pull out?


If you're in a high enough wind storm to pull nails, the last thing you're going to be worried about is your nails pulling out of the framing. The reduced sheer on most screws will cause them to snap, rendering them useless for holding stuff together, then you will also be losing so much other things, siding, shingles, etc. If there was a significant difference, then in these high wind areas, code would require the use of screws, but the force needed to pull a nail is so great, that in some cases, the nail holds longer than the wood it is nailed into. On many occasions, for repairs, I've had to remove sheer nailed plywood off the side of the house; I removed one side of nails, then proceeded to pry on the wood with my hands, and sure enough, the plywood broke off around the nails, leaving a small piece of plywood in place underneath the nail. If you have the extra thousands of dollars to use screws instead of nails, then go ahead and frame with them, but like I said, it is overkill. Most wood won't hold through nails. I've even pulled 2x4s and had the nails stay and pull straight through the the 2x4.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

After re-reading the ring shank post...those are the same things we use at work to attach aerial drop cable to power poles (except ours has a j-hook to attach the messenger to it). And you're right, those things do have incredible pullout strength: I end up shearing it out of the pole if I need to remove one.

So basically, those ring shank nails provide nearly the same pullout resistance as a screw, but are much easier to install, correct? My only concern would be IF I needed to pull one out, then I would destroy the wood.


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

Tonglebeak said:


> After re-reading the ring shank post...those are the same things we use at work to attach aerial drop cable to power poles (except ours has a j-hook to attach the messenger to it). And you're right, those things do have incredible pullout strength: I end up shearing it out of the pole if I need to remove one.
> 
> So basically, those ring shank nails provide nearly the same pullout resistance as a screw, but are much easier to install, correct? My only concern would be IF I needed to pull one out, then I would destroy the wood.


You don't pull them you cut the head off. And as for ease of installation, have you ever used a nail gun? You shoot them through a nail gun. Way easier than any screw application, and YES I do have a Quik Drive screw gun, the exact one in this picture








BUT it's still not as easy as either loading up the coil gun, or the regular strip nail gun, and shooting away. I could nail a whole floor off in a quarter of the time someone could screw it off with one of those. And in the way of price, you're talking about more than DOUBLING the price to use that thing compared to ring shanks, which are expensive nails. 
Between the time, and cost, of using screws over nails, :hammer: the nail wins, pullout of a normal nail vs. a normal screw, yes the screw is better, but imagine framing with a screw gun. Could you imagine making a mistake in your wall layout???? Lets see you go through the wall and pull every screw that you put in, or dish out the extra money to buy a wall full of screws, because screws over 1 1/2" long aren't cheap. But 12d nails are. For a small project, I would justify using screws for building a tornado shelter, or some sort of hurricane prevention. But, in all practicality, you're more likely to have something fall over, or be thrown into your house, than you're house pulling apart. 16 years of framing in Washington, and I have yet to see one of my houses pull apart.


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

So, what do you think would be the best way to do things?

Nails - for anything inside of sheathing.
Screws - for sheathing, siding, etc - anything that is directly exposed to wind.

Is that logical?


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

I honestly feel that people underestimate nails. You're going to be spending a lot more putting in screws, for a small gain in pullout strength. Screws are good for things that get pulled on as a way of life. I don't screw siding trim, and windows in. Staples are great for roof sheeting, but are no longer allowed in Washington =[ cheap fast and more safe(staples won't shoot through if you miss a truss) HardiPlank siding can be nailed, and so can vinyl. Screwing vinyl wouldn't be half bad, but you'll find that the siding will break off around a nail before you'll pull the nail out when you yank on vinyl siding. Things like doors, cabinet handles, and things in the house that have a lot of wear and tear on a daily basis, are what NEED screws. Floor sheeting though, most people underestimate subfloor adhesive. Most screws can't hold anywhere near what that glue can. I can say, that when it comes to the rough framing, siding, and trim,(the things I have done the most) you don't ever need screws. Places that you could screw, without reducing the sheer strength of the member that you are fastening to, would be seams, such as where the plywood breaks on the roof, floor, and walls, and things like that. It IS overkill, but if the wind will rip the screws off of the seams, it will rip them out of the rest of the plywood. If you're made of money, or screws, then go ahead and do that. Any more, like I've said, is overkill. Better safe than sorry, but there is a top level in safety, and if your plywood is ripping out around the nails, then the nail has hit the highest level a fastener can, because it will rip out around a screw, unless you're screwing it in with huge nail heads or washers,  overkill. So with how business is, I'll stick to this>>:hammer:


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

Wildie said:


> I have found that when driving nails that there is tendency for the hammer blows to move the material away from where you want it!
> If you plan to use both screws and nails, I would suggest that the joint would be screwed first, then nailed secondly!
> The screws would hold things in position, while being nailed.


The solution to this is, get a nailgun, or learn how to swing a hammer :laughing:


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## Tonglebeak (Dec 28, 2009)

GarageDoorCente said:


> I honestly feel that people underestimate nails. You're going to be spending a lot more putting in screws, for a small gain in pullout strength. Screws are good for things that get pulled on as a way of life. I don't screw siding trim, and windows in. Staples are great for roof sheeting, but are no longer allowed in Washington =[ cheap fast and more safe(staples won't shoot through if you miss a truss) HardiPlank siding can be nailed, and so can vinyl. Screwing vinyl wouldn't be half bad, but you'll find that the siding will break off around a nail before you'll pull the nail out when you yank on vinyl siding. Things like doors, cabinet handles, and things in the house that have a lot of wear and tear on a daily basis, are what NEED screws. Floor sheeting though, most people underestimate subfloor adhesive. Most screws can't hold anywhere near what that glue can. I can say, that when it comes to the rough framing, siding, and trim,(the things I have done the most) you don't ever need screws. Places that you could screw, without reducing the sheer strength of the member that you are fastening to, would be seams, such as where the plywood breaks on the roof, floor, and walls, and things like that. It IS overkill, but if the wind will rip the screws off of the seams, it will rip them out of the rest of the plywood. If you're made of money, or screws, then go ahead and do that. Any more, like I've said, is overkill. Better safe than sorry, but there is a top level in safety, and if your plywood is ripping out around the nails, then the nail has hit the highest level a fastener can, because it will rip out around a screw, unless you're screwing it in with huge nail heads or washers,  overkill. So with how business is, I'll stick to this>>:hammer:


Staples on the roof? How can that resist uplift?


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## Big Bob (Jul 27, 2007)

staples have been forbiden by code on wall and roof sheathing in FL since Andrew visited. Rightfully so...

Herr Holzman metioned screws in 5/8 - 3/4 ply roof sheathing for
better high wind resistance... I predict this will be code in FL after the next big blow.

GarageDoorCenteQuote:
Originally Posted by *Wildie*  
_I have found that when driving nails that there is tendency for the hammer blows to move the material away from where you want it!_
_If you plan to use both screws and nails, I would suggest that the joint would be screwed first, then nailed secondly!_
_The screws would hold things in position, while being nailed._

The solution to this is, get a nailgun, or learn how to swing a hammer :laughing: 



Good inspectors watch for proper depth on nails ...if gun is set to high nails will bite to deep. Set to low .. you get wiggle room.

A good mechanic with good eye site, a hammer/nail , the right rythem, should not have a problem with framing member material separations and proper nail placement.


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## GarageDoorCente (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, staples have been banned. We've built probably 500+ houses with staples though, in high wind areas of the Puget Sound, but have not had any problems with the sheeting coming off. High wind in these areas is 60-80mph, so it's nothign really compared to tornado/hurricane areas. You can use more staples, for cheaper, and closer together on a rood, so it kind of works out, like I've said though, that's up here, and a few in Missouri. I have yet to see any one of my projects just pull apart. And I've never used 3/4 on the roof, but I could see how it would help. Soon they'll be asking for floor sheeting to be put on the roof, glued to the trusses and screwed off. Kind of like how every piece of hardware that you need in a house right now is patented by Simpson.... hmmmm... if someone is making good enough money on it, it'll become the standard one way or another. I've never experienced problems with my earlier in the 90's houses, just earthquake straps and hurricane clips, no hold downs, strong walls, etc. I've even seen a few houses stay standing when the hill that they were built on washed out, and took part of the foundation with it, but today, if that were to happen, the house won't do that, with so many things put in between. New changes that are over kill, bearing plates? Not too many times I've seen one of those put to use,








the hold down








the hold down replaced the old method of an earthquake strap









so many of these new pieces of hardware are a little bit overkill. Doing all this has made most people paranoid that things like nails and staples aren't enough. Keep in mind though, that while screws may be more effective at their jobs than nails, the wood can only hold so much too. So unless you replace sheeting with 1/2" steel plates, the screws are going to tear right through, if enough pressure is put on the sheeting that you use, most times nails tear through also. So the next step to prevent pullout isn't to use new fasteners, it's to use new sheeting, the solution to this is 3/4" sheeting, but once again, overkill. With 100's of houses framed from 93 to 04, when the newer codes were implemented where we lived, staples out-held any weather applied to the roof, and the nails used for shearing kept the sheeting on the side of the house. Also, nailed in hurricane clips kept the roof on the house, and earthquake straps kept the house on the foundation. I do not live in a tornado/hurricane area, but we do get some pretty high winds here, and when I lived in Missouri, where we were in an area with numerous tornadoes, the houses still held, unless they were hit pretty directly.


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