# PEX vs. Copper



## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

I've never heard of rodents eating pex. I suppose if for whatever reason they chose too they could though. Copper is much more expensive then pex, I'm not sure where he gets that bit of information from. Did these plumbers give you estimates?


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## That one Guy (May 24, 2007)

I have heard this is code not to use pex under a building somewhere on the east coast because of rats chewing through it. But who knows, here copper was in the same price range as pex a few yrs ago but now copper is sky high.


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## Mike Swearingen (Mar 15, 2005)

All of the pro plumbers in this area are using PEX _unless_ copper is actually specified by the builder or homeowner. There is a great deal of difference in the materials and installation cost here (copper is higher).
Get quotes. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with rats eating PEX.
Mike


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## Chris Johnson (Oct 31, 2007)

Uponor (PEX) is very familar with the rat story, it is not true. In the labrotory test....the rat died before he ever chew threw the pipe.


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## scorrpio (Aug 14, 2006)

Is the house infested with rats/mice that potentially might chew the PEX? Cause if it ain't, why should you worry? And if it is, you should see to exterminating them for many other reasons besides plumbing.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

My advice:
1. You'll find the pex quotes to be cheaper and pex works fine.
2. If boyfriend doesn't think you're good enough to marry but thinks you are good enough to help pay for his house it's time to dump boyfriend and find a real man who values you.

(or did you only want advice about the plumbing)


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## rwinford (Jan 20, 2009)

*Rats DO chew through PEX*

We had a major remodeling job finished at our house June 2008. We did a lot of bathroom changes, and the plumbers ran PEX from the new tankless hot-water heater to the new and updated bathrooms. In January 2009, in about 48 hours we've had at least 4 water leaks caused by rats chewing through the PEX. Our plumbing contractor contacted his PEX supplier who reported to him that they have had a few reports of rats chewing into/through the PEX. I have photos of ours. One 3 ft section had more than 50 holes or almost holes in it.

Yes, we are working on getting rid of the rats, but I can't ever be 100% sure that we will never have a rat in the attic again. So, we are replacing the PEX with copper. At much more expense now than it would have been to run copper the first time.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Fascinating about the rats! I've never seen or heard of that in years of inspecting homes with PEX water lines. Those little boogers will eat anything though I guess. Unless you have a rat problem I wouldn't give it a thought.

Rats aside, PEX is an awesome product and you can't usually go wrong with it. As stated, PEX materials are considerably cheaper than copper and the installation is much faster and therefore might be cheaper as well. The plumber that is telling you that PEX and copper are similarly priced is misleading you, probably because he can make more money on a copper job because it takes longer and there's more potential for materials markup because the materials cost more.


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## MgMopar (Jul 31, 2004)

rwinford said:


> We had a major remodeling job finished at our house June 2008. We did a lot of bathroom changes, and the plumbers ran PEX from the new tankless hot-water heater to the new and updated bathrooms. In January 2009, in about 48 hours we've had at least 4 water leaks caused by rats chewing through the PEX. Our plumbing contractor contacted his PEX supplier who reported to him that they have had a few reports of rats chewing into/through the PEX. I have photos of ours. One 3 ft section had more than 50 holes or almost holes in it.
> 
> Yes, we are working on getting rid of the rats, but I can't ever be 100% sure that we will never have a rat in the attic again. So, we are replacing the PEX with copper. At much more expense now than it would have been to run copper the first time.


I would of thought after the rats chews threw the first hole the would have been taking a shower! It's hard to believe they made so many holes so close together. You must have a very serious rat problem. :wink:


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## AndrewF (Dec 29, 2008)

MgMopar said:


> I would of thought after the rats chews threw the first hole the would have been taking a shower! It's hard to believe they made so many holes so close together. You must have a very serious rat problem. :wink:


I agree, to have so many holes near each other means that either they ALL chewed it at once, or you had a BAD leak for an extended period of time (flooding) or these creatures dont care about getting wet with HOT water and kept on chewing, which seems unlikely.

Are you sure someone isnt pranking you?


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

rwinford said:


> We had a major remodeling job finished at our house June 2008. We did a lot of bathroom changes, and the plumbers ran PEX from the new tankless hot-water heater to the new and updated bathrooms. In January 2009, in about 48 hours we've had at least 4 water leaks caused by rats chewing through the PEX. Our plumbing contractor contacted his PEX supplier who reported to him that they have had a few reports of rats chewing into/through the PEX. I have photos of ours. One 3 ft section had more than 50 holes or almost holes in it.
> 
> Yes, we are working on getting rid of the rats, but I can't ever be 100% sure that we will never have a rat in the attic again. So, we are replacing the PEX with copper. At much more expense now than it would have been to run copper the first time.


these are not rat bites, looks more like an out of work Union plumber:laughing:


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## zosoplumber (Nov 21, 2008)

I agree, it looks like it could have been chewed through or rubbed on an abrasive, anyway once they got through the first time they wouldn't stick around for the second, third or fourth hole.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

If the plumber you liked can do your job within your budget and use copper, I see no reason to not use him. Metal prices have fallen drastically in the last few months, but I cant imagine that it will be comparable to having it done with PEX. Maybe he has a large amount of copper on hand, but most plumbers usually dont keep that kind of inventory laying around. Like previously stated, get your estimates and check their references so that you will have a good replumbing experience.


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## moneymgmt (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm old school and never much for being on the cutting edge of the "latest and greatest" so I still use copper. Price hasn't changed much in the last few years after it rose so steeply, and around here its actually going back down slightly. Yes its probably more expensive, but I know what copper will do over time, for me PEX hasn't been around long enough to prove itself yet. The fittings are still what bug me about PEX, not the tubing itself.


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## rwinford (Jan 20, 2009)

AndrewF said:


> I agree, to have so many holes near each other means that either they ALL chewed it at once, or you had a BAD leak for an extended period of time (flooding) or these creatures dont care about getting wet with HOT water and kept on chewing, which seems unlikely.
> 
> Are you sure someone isnt pranking you?


I'm sure I am not being pranked. I was standing in the bathroom with the plumber when he cut a hole in the wall. We both saw the PEX at the same time.

I believe the reason for multiple holes is that we had turned off the water at the sign of the first leak. It was about 48 hours before the plumber could get there and open the wall. Our assumption is that the rat(s) kept chewing into the PEX looking for water, since he (she?) had gotten water from it the first time.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

While I believe everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions about a product, don't let anyone tell you that PEX hasn't been around long enough to prove itself. PEX was introduced to the European market in 1972 by Wirsbo and has been in use in the states since the 80's.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

moneymgmt said:


> I'm old school and never much for being on the cutting edge of the "latest and greatest" so I still use copper. Price hasn't changed much in the last few years after it rose so steeply, and around here its actually going back down slightly. Yes its probably more expensive, but I know what copper will do over time, for me PEX hasn't been around long enough to prove itself yet. The fittings are still what bug me about PEX, not the tubing itself.


Viega pex has been around since 1980 Just how long must a proven improvement be around for the old guys to accept it? And I am 59 and used it for 8 years now with no leaks or callbacks.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Bob, I'm sure in the early 1900's there were people that refused to ride in cars because horses were better. :laughing:


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## rwinford (Jan 20, 2009)

I am not a plumber (and don't even play one on TV) and I am ambivalent about copper versus PEX for the industry. I am replacing it only because of the rat problem. I am actively working with a professional exterminator to get rid of the rats, and I believe I can get rid of them. However, I don't believe I can make the house completely rodent-proof, and therefore I would always worry about a new leak and major water damage to the house if it happens while we're gone for a few days.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

rwinford said:


> I am not a plumber (and don't even play one on TV) and I am ambivalent about copper versus PEX for the industry. I am replacing it only because of the rat problem. I am actively working with a professional exterminator to get rid of the rats, and I believe I can get rid of them. However, I don't believe I can make the house completely rodent-proof, and therefore I would always worry about a new leak and major water damage to the house if it happens while we're gone for a few days.


Do you live near a lot of fast food restaurants?

Where's the source of the rats coming from?


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## MgMopar (Jul 31, 2004)

I am pretty sure if you put a copper tube in the way of a rat it can chew threw it. I have seen holes in other metals from rats. I have seen holes in flat sheet metal flashing harder to chew the copper? To prevent the possibility, Solid threaded pipe would be the best in a infested building.





moneymgmt said:


> I'm old school and never much for being on the cutting edge of the "latest and greatest" so I still use copper. Price hasn't changed much in the last few years after it rose so steeply, and around here its actually going back down slightly. Yes its probably more expensive, but I know what copper will do over time, for me PEX hasn't been around long enough to prove itself yet. The fittings are still what bug me about PEX, not the tubing itself.




I would think when copper (at one time "latest and greatest" ) was introduced to the industry there were most likely many were thinking that threaded pipe was the only way to go. And this soldered together stuff just won't do the job.


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## rwinford (Jan 20, 2009)

handy man88 said:


> Do you live near a lot of fast food restaurants?
> 
> Where's the source of the rats coming from?


 
we are not close to fast-food restaurants. Closest one is probably a mile or more away. We are in a regular housing sub-division, with extra large lots (1 acre or bigger). I have talked with 8 other people/families in this area (suburb of Dallas) and there has been a lot of rat problems over the last 6 months. EVERYONE I have talked with has had problems, either in the attic, the house, or the garage. Our rat exterminator has indicated that this is the worst he has ever seen it (in over 15 years). We have put out bait and set traps. I think we will get ahead of them.


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## benjamincall (Apr 25, 2008)

moneymgmt said:


> I'm old school and never much for being on the cutting edge of the "latest and greatest" so I still use copper. Price hasn't changed much in the last few years after it rose so steeply, and around here its actually going back down slightly. Yes its probably more expensive, but I know what copper will do over time, for me PEX hasn't been around long enough to prove itself yet. The fittings are still what bug me about PEX, not the tubing itself.


What about PEX fittings bugs you? Such a variety options exists, that I'm sure we could find one that suits your fancy. The ProPex expansion fittings from Wirsbo-Uponor seem pretty resilient to me. They also seem to restrict flow less because the ID of the fitting can match that of the tubing. Most of the pros who use PEX on a regular basis seem to favor the expansion approach. I believe that QPex (Zurn?) had a Chinese supplier provide brass fittings of inferior quality (excessive zinc?) that caused some major problems. I have several of those fittings in my shower, but they are soon to be replaced with ProPex.

On a different note, I believe peppermint oil or Shake Away in close proximity to the PEX might be good a deterrant to rodents if you can't eradicate them.


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## handy man88 (Jan 23, 2007)

rwinford said:


> we are not close to fast-food restaurants. Closest one is probably a mile or more away. We are in a regular housing sub-division, with extra large lots (1 acre or bigger). I have talked with 8 other people/families in this area (suburb of Dallas) and there has been a lot of rat problems over the last 6 months. EVERYONE I have talked with has had problems, either in the attic, the house, or the garage. Our rat exterminator has indicated that this is the worst he has ever seen it (in over 15 years). We have put out bait and set traps. I think we will get ahead of them.


You might want to get a cat then.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

MgMopar said:


> I am pretty sure if you put a copper tube in the way of a rat it can chew threw it. I have seen holes in other metals from rats. I have seen holes in flat sheet metal flashing harder to chew the copper? To prevent the possibility, Solid threaded pipe would be the best in a infested building.


Rats can chew through not only copper, but galvanized steel as well. As stated before, do whatever is needed to eradicate the rats. If needed, give them a better option, such as a water source outside next to a nice healthy bowl of rat poison. Of course not a good option if you have pets or children outside as well. But beware that they might probably return to their nest in the home to die... another problem altogether.


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## Brickkicker (Feb 8, 2010)

wrangler said:


> Rats can chew through not only copper, but galvanized steel as well. As stated before, do whatever is needed to eradicate the rats. If needed, give them a better option, such as a water source outside next to a nice healthy bowl of rat poison. Of course not a good option if you have pets or children outside as well. But beware that they might probably return to their nest in the home to die... another problem altogether.


Most commercial rat poisons will cause them to dehydrate, minimizing any potential for bad odors. I know the thought of dead rats inside walls and in the attic is not pleasant, but if bones are all that's left, I could deal with it.

For those of you with a rat or mouse problem: 

Rats don't just magically appear inside the walls, they have to have a way to get in. Check for holes in foundation vent screens and basement or crawl space access doors. 

They can access the roof via tree limbs, vegetation on walls, or overhead electrical lines, and can get into the attic through small openings between roof tiles and shakes. (Composition shingle roofs are harder for them to get past) 
If you limit the ways they can get in, you will solve the problem without having to use poison or traps.


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## ChrisDIY (Feb 1, 2010)

Brickkicker said:


> Most commercial rat poisons will cause them to dehydrate, minimizing any potential for bad odors. I know the thought of dead rats inside walls and in the attic is not pleasant, but if bones are all that's left, I could deal with it.
> 
> For those of you with a rat or mouse problem:
> 
> ...


I agree go into attic and crawlspace during midday and turn the lights off. Anywhere you see light is a possible path of entry. Not going to find all but I found a hole in my foundation behind foam insulation that way.

--Chris


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## kenm09 (Feb 11, 2010)

Something to think about...and I know its a bathroom. BUT, if you had two glasses of water in your fridge, and one was made of copper, and the other was plastic, what would you drink out of first?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

kenm09 said:


> Something to think about...and I know its a bathroom. BUT, if you had two glasses of water in your fridge, and one was made of copper, and the other was plastic, what would you drink out of first?


For me it would be copper, becase it kills germs
After 2 years I think the OP has decided


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

kenm09 said:


> Something to think about...and I know its a bathroom. BUT, if you had two glasses of water in your fridge, and one was made of copper, and the other was plastic, what would you drink out of first?


I can assure you we have all drank from plastic cups and plastic glasses with no concern. But when has anyone opened a refrigerator and seen a copper glass of water....


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## kenm09 (Feb 11, 2010)

exactly. that is precisely the point, bob.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

The pex lawsuits are beginning to roll in now, one after another. Some deal with the system fittings and dezincafication issues, some like Nibco pex deal with defects that cause the pipe to split down the length. Several Pex manufacturers have already folded up and a couple more are on the way out. Every single pex manufacturer is involved in litigation of one sort or another. The common argument that the stuff has been used in Europe for 50 years with no trouble is misleading at best. The reason you don't hear about European pex problems is because their legal system operates a bit differently than ours and the lawsuits don't make it to the public forum but All european Pex manufacturers have paid off millions in damages. Still, it is here and it is not going away anytime soon. Because it's cheap, easy and fast it has gained a foothold with the diy crowd as well as many plumbers. Personally, I would not install it in a concealed location in my own house. If I can et to it to inspect and repair it, I don't have a problem with it. If it lets go in the ceiling it's going to be a big issue. As for copper leaching out of copper pipes and causing health problems, I challange anyone to find one single provable case of that happening. If it did, it's one in 10 million.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> Research shows that not to be true


It is True, Try again:



> The Copper Development Association, a trade group for copper companies, said Tuesday that federal regulators had approved its application to market a group of copper alloys, including brass and bronze, as capable of killing bacteria and microbes effectively enough to protect human health.
> Copper ions can penetrate the cell walls of microbes and can disrupt reproduction and other cell functions.
> The approval is the first time that the Environmental Protection Agency has allowed health claims to be attached to a solid antimicrobial material rather than a liquid or aerosol disinfectant. The agency regulates antimicrobials not applied directly to the body under the laws intended to control agricultural pesticides.
> How widely the copper products will penetrate the multibillion-dollar market for antimicrobial products remains unclear. Copper is a relatively soft, easily tarnished metal that may not be suitable for many applications.
> Researchers who worked on the concept expect hospitals and other public institutions to be the initial market for the product, based on the approvals gained by the trade group. The tests showed 99.9 percent kill rates within two hours against the leading antibiotic-resistant bacteria now plaguing hospitals, said Harold T. Michels, senior vice president for technology and technical services at the trade group.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99458486

https://www.asrt.org/content/News/IndustryNewsBriefs/GenRes/coppersurf081121.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/business/26microbes.html


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Due to the source of my information regarding european pex lawsuits I will decline to give you a link, suffice to say that the information is damaging at best and the gentleman that gave it to me could and would probably loose his job as he reps for one of the larger manufacturers.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Here is a very well documented domestic case.

﻿*residential buildings. In 2000, Pulte homes built 27,781 homes; in 
2006 this number rose to 41,487. If these houses are then built in an 
area, for example in Nevada, where water quality is critical to pip- 
ing installations no matter what pipe type used and non- 
dezincification-resistant fittings have been installed, damage 
can be immense. In this context, the largest class-action lawsuit has been filed with respect to 5,300 
buildings erected from May 2002 until January 2006 with an amount of loss of $7,800 each which 
totals to $41.3 million not including lawyer’s fees. When such disasters happen, the only thing to be 
done is a strategic withdrawal. ([email protected]) 
*


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

NHMaster said:


> Here is a very well documented domestic case.
> 
> *residential buildings. In 2000, Pulte homes built 27,781 homes; in
> 2006 this number rose to 41,487. If these houses are then built in an
> ...



PEX use solid brass fittings... are you suggesting that these are bad compared to copper fittings.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

I refuse to go out on a limb on anything though Uponor is strongly suggesting that everyone use their plastic fittings. remember though that pex failures go beyond just fittings alone. Due to differences in manufacturing processes ( and you can google and read for a solid week on that subject) there have been cases where the cross link process went bad and the pipe has developed splits along it's length. The viega crowd will tell you that their stuff is solid and to be honest, so far it has. My advice to anyone installing pex is to make sure your insurance is paid up. :thumbup:


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Right, Hospitals are going to use it because it doesn't kill germs :jester:


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I did a little research on PEX lawsuits, and discovered that there are several ongoing lawsuits in addition to the Zurn fitting case. One case involves Heatway, a now bankrupt company that distributed PEX heating tubing manufactured by Goodyear. They recently lost a lawsuit against Goodyear in which Heatway claimed that all the Goodyear PEX tubing supplied to Heatway was defective, resulting in rupturing of the tubing in some cases. Goodyear countersued, claiming that Heatway had failed to properly instruct installers, and had failed to inform clients that the presence of acid in the water/glycol mixture could lead to pipe damage.

Goodyear won the case, and Heatway went bankrupt, however they are apparently in the process of being sold to Watts.

I also stumbled across a number of articles claiming that PEX tubing is not resistant to warm, chlorinated water such as would likely be encountered in most U.S. potable water distribution systems (muicipal water supplies). I was unable to confirm this assertion. I also came across an article describing the need for special antioxidant chemicals that must be added to PEX to resist damage from oxygen in water. This is apparently accurate, since there is an ASTM test for antioxidant PEX chemical, however I was unable to determine how much life reduction of piping could be attributed to high oxygen content water.

One article I ran across claimed that PEX tubing used in heating systems could last up to 300 years because the oxygen and chlorine in the recirculated water was rapidly used up by the sacrificial antioxidant chemicals included in the PEX tubing. However, the article suggested that ordinary potable water continuously replenishes the oxygen supply, therefore the article suggested that PEX could last only ten years if it were used with harsh conditions such as low pH water, high chlorine content, high oxygen content, and warm water.

All of this is needless to say very difficult to digest. We have a pretty good history of copper pipe, however I know from personal experience with my house that copper pipe does poorly in acidic conditions such as I have. I do not know whether copper is adversely affected by chlorine, ozone, high oxygen content, or organic chlorine derivatives such as are found in many municipal water supplies.

It is common with any new innovation to discover at some point down the line that there are problems that are not obvious initially. For example, the Romans introduced lead pipe, which seemed to perform very well, until it was determined that lead in water was hazardous to health. Polybutylene pipe was manufactured for many years (and is still available outside the U.S.), but was ultimately withdrawn from the U.S. due to issues with fittings, and a large class action lawsuit. Solder for copper pipes used to be 50/50, meaning 50 percent lead, 50 percent tin (I still have some in my basement). Now all solder for potable water must be lead free, but still uses additives such as antimony. I wonder how safe antimony is.

I don't see any way forward to determining which pipes are safe, long lasting, and cost effective. Too many seemingly knowledgeable people with wildly divergent opinions. One thing that is clear to me is that anyone with a personal financial stake in the discussion should be viewed with some skepticism, i.e. the PEX tubing association is not likely to present a balanced view of the viability of PEX, similarly the copper pipe association is not going to tell us about problems with copper.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

Gary Slusser said:


> Then IMO your statement is not much better than gossip used against a competing product.



Why yes, indeed, unless I want to cost someone their job, at this point it is just that. But did I not make that point clear? 

36 years as a licensed plumber. Most of that as a master plumber. I've seen products come and products go. Some were exceptionally good, others not so much. I have installed miles and miles of copper. Much to my dismay, I also installed miles of polybutlyne and paid the price for that mistake. I have consequently also installed many thousands of feet of pex. Most of it on radiant heat jobs but admittedly, some has been for domestic water. After all, though not much of a justification, we must all remain competitive and there is no doubt that pex is cheaper than copper both in cost and in labor. That said I keep my fingers crossed and make sure my liability insurance is paid up. I find it disconcerting though when folks that have never installed more than a couple hundred feet of the stuff, and installed that in their own homes ( only liability is their own ) are so willing to give an unequivical thumbs up to a product that they have close to no experience with.


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## NHMaster (Dec 21, 2009)

That is correct, I have not had any problems. Partly because I did quite a bit of research before deciding who's product to use and partly because we are very careful during installation. At this point the sheer volume of installed product vs the number of failures and problems is still pretty low. I just hope it stays that way. One of the issues that rarely gets discussed is the effect that chlorine has on pex. It takes time but eventually it degrades the pipe and causes it to go brittle.


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