# Nicotine/Cigarette Smoke Smelling House



## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Hi all,

Bought a house where the previous owners seemed to smoke in the house. As such, there is a nicotine smell.

To start off we want to paint the entire house, top to bottom, and wanted some opinions on some of the research I have done.

We are planning on doing the following:

1. Wash the walls with water
2. Use TSP on the walls
3. Use 2 coats of a oiled based primer, sealer, stain blocker (not sure which brand)
4. Apply paint

It was also suggested to skip 3. above and purchase an additive such as Zorbx Surface Odor Remover and mix it with a primer/paint.

Any thoughts would be great!


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd clean the walls with an orange cleaner avalible at any dollar store.
Need to start at the bottom of the wall and work up because it just melt the stains right off the wall.
No need for an oil based anything. A shellac based primer will seal it and far easier clean up.
More likly the smells coming from the vents and any carpet and padding if there is any.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Wash with ammonia / water and renew ammonia / water often.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

For that sort of thing, B-I-N is awesome although pricey. CoverStain is great too. KILZ is fine if you're on a budget. Just note that anything that is oil-based or shellac based is going to have super strong odors........one coat of primer is sufficient.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Everyone else is telling you how to seal the smell inside the wall. I'm going to tell you how to remove it from the wall. It's more work, but it does remove the smell, not just seal it up.

Dilute bleach with 5 parts water and use a sponge mop to clean the ceiling and walls with that solution. You will see a colour change in the paint as the bleach breaks up the tar and nicotine molecules that are staining the wall.

Much of the stain will be removed with water alone, but to get rid of the stain completely, you need to use bleach.

After cleaning with a sponge mop, then spray water onto the walls and ceilings, scrub with a nylon bristle brush screwed onto a painting pole, and collect the rinse water with a squeegee nozzle connected to a wet/dry vaccuum cleaner. You may have to clean any rubber marks from the squeegee nozzle off the walls and ceilings with a damp sponge.

Also, if you use a cellulose sponge in your sponge mop, rinse it out well at the end of any cleaning session with clean water. Bleach will attack the cellulose and ruin it. So, don't leave the sponge soaked with the bleach cleaning solution if you want to keep using it. I expect that the bleach will gradually attack the cellulose even when you're using the sponge mop to clean with, so maybe keep a sponge refill for the sponge mop handy.

Also, the sponge mop will be dripping bleach cleaning solution all over the floor, so be careful about that. You don't want the bleach dripping onto any flooring that you're not planning to replace that could be harmed by bleach.

You should probably plan on replacing the carpet and draperies as well. These items have a vastly larger surface area than walls or ceilings, and so they harbour odors very much more than walls or ceilings. You can get rid of much of the odor by simply shampoo'ing the carpet, but you'll need to replace it to get rid of the smoke odor coming from the carpet completely.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> We are planning on doing the following:
> 
> 1. Wash the walls with water
> 2. Use TSP on the walls
> ...


Go find the person that told you to use TSP on your walls and hit him really hard for me.

Anyone that knows enough about paint to be giving advice will know that TSP won't do anything unless it is applied to a drying oil type paint (linseed oil or Tung oil). In that case, cleaning the wall with TSP will etch the gloss of the old paint, making it into a flat gloss so that the new paint adheres better. In every other case, the TSP won't do squat. Cleaning latex paint with TSP will be as effective at removing that nicotine and tar as cleaning it with ordinary tap water.

The problem is that the subject of paint isn't taught anywhere, and ignorance is fertile ground for misinformation to grow. Cleaning walls with TSP was the standard procedure years ago when interior walls were painted with linseed oil or Tung oil based paints. As latex paints grew in popularity, no one seemed to understand that TSP DIDN'T etch the gloss of latex paints, and so there was no point in cleaning latex paint with TSP before repainting. If you're going to clean latex painted walls before repainting them, you're much better off using a good detergent like Mr. Clean or Fantastik instead of TSP. You get the walls cleaner for the same amount of work.

Even now, there are "experts" in paint stores that are still telling people to clean latex painted walls with TSP before repainting. And, that's a problem because if people don't rinse the TSP off well, it'll dry to a powder on the wall and interfere with the adhesion of the new paint. That is, cleaning latex paint with TSP is always likely to do more harm than good. They should put TSP behind the counter at the paint store and only sell it to people who know when to use it.

Anyhow...
If you want to remove that smoke smell, wash the walls with a bleach based cleaning solution and rinse with clean water and you'll do less work to achieve very much better results.

...or, just paint over what you have with something that will seal the smell inside the existing paint. I would be concerned about the nicotine and tar on the old paint interfering with the adhesion of the sealer you apply, but just cleaning with water should remove enough of that nicotine and tar to ensure proper adhesion of the sealer.

Also, when cleaning the ceilings, keep a tub of water handy so that you can plunge your face into it if any bleach cleaning solution drips into your eye.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Gymschu said:


> For that sort of thing, B-I-N is awesome although pricey. CoverStain is great too. KILZ is fine if you're on a budget. Just note that anything that is oil-based or shellac based is going to have super strong odors........one coat of primer is sufficient.


Thank you all for the great advice!

So based on the advice I should use one coat of say something like this: zinsser-bin-primer-sealer

How many gallons do you think i would need for about 2200 sq ft? Thanks again! I am very new to all this.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> How many gallons do you think i would need for about 2200 sq ft?


Don't buy it all in advance. Buy more as you use it up. The stores will always have plenty of it to sell.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Don't buy it all in advance. Buy more as you use it up. The stores will always have plenty of it to sell.


Excellent point!

Is that type okay - there's a sale tomorrow so thinking about picking some up.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Everyone else is telling you how to seal the smell inside the wall. I'm going to tell you how to remove it from the wall. It's more work, but it does remove the smell, not just seal it up.
> 
> Dilute bleach with 5 parts water and use a sponge mop to clean the ceiling and walls with that solution. You will see a colour change in the paint as the bleach breaks up the tar and nicotine molecules that are staining the wall.
> 
> ...


Great! Thank you for the advice! We are going to have the hardwood on the main floor sanded down and refinished. There is only carpet in the basement and 2nd floor but you can't smell much on those floors. That said, we are planning on getting the carpet professionally cleaned and will replace drapery.

So I put the solution on the wall with a mop and the paint will likely change colour. And then use 100% bleach on the walls to remove the stain, correct?

Then spray water on the walls and ceilings - can I just use a regular mop to get the water off? Thanks!


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## Sir MixAlot (Apr 4, 2008)

Here's a project where the walls and ceilings were covered with nicotine from a smoker. The ceilings had a popcorn texture on them. So we removed the popcorn. Then I cleaned the walls with a light bleach solution and rinsed.

Next, I primed the entire place with Kilz Original oil based primer and painted. The home came out nice and the smell was gone! :yes:









This photo is showing water being sprayed to remove the popcorn and it also help rinse some of the nicotine off the walls. 









Primed and painted two coats. :thumbup:


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

If you go the BIN route the smell is pretty strong as stated but it dissipates really quick.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Also, the sponge mop will be dripping bleach cleaning solution all over the floor, so be careful about that. You don't want the bleach dripping onto any flooring that you're not planning to replace that could be harmed by bleach.


That's why we use ammonia, a product designed to clean floors.


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## 78Vette (Nov 25, 2009)

I've got 26 Gal of BIN sitting on my shelf, I give you a good price on if you are close to me.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

78Vette said:


> I've got 26 Gal of BIN sitting on my shelf, I give you a good price on if you are close to me.


Just wondering what the odds of that would be....

Anyway, BIN works great as a smoke primer. I recently used BIN Advanced instead in a smoker's house to prime the brown popcorn ceilings before repainting. It did fine, but I wasn't to concerned about sealing in odor since he plans to continue smoking in there. But, I am curious if anyone else has used this for a more discriminating situation. It did seam to seal the brown/yellow/nicotine in so it didn't bleed into the ceiling paint.

BTW, I wonder what this stuff really is. People call it "nicotine", but somehow I think it's really the other stuff in smoke. e-cigs, after all, seem to have none of this residue.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Sir MixAlot said:


> Here's a project where the walls and ceilings were covered with nicotine from a smoker. The ceilings had a popcorn texture on them. So we removed the popcorn. Then I cleaned the walls with a light bleach solution and rinsed.
> 
> Next, I primed the entire place with Kilz Original oil based primer and painted. The home came out nice and the smell was gone! :yes:
> 
> ...


Thank you so much!

We are planning on removing the popcorn on the main floor where the smoke smell is stronger. Do you suggest removing the popcorn first and then washing the walls and the cieling with bleach/water?

I am no handyman so it would be great if I could find a service to do this for us...but having trouble finding someone in the Toronto area.

Thanks again


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Yes I would definitely remove the popcorn first, there is no sense trying to deal around that.

Is Angie's List in Canada?


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

78Vette said:


> I've got 26 Gal of BIN sitting on my shelf, I give you a good price on if you are close to me.


Live in GTA...looks like your SW Ontario


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I know NO ONE likes doing nicotine stained paint projects. I've done a few over the years. Some were cleaned and prepped well, others, I just used KILZ or BIN and primed right over top of the stains, mostly apartment repaints. The ones that stick out in my mind are the Homeowners who are life-long smokers and they tell you: "I don't know what all that yellow/brown staining is on our walls and ceilings, but, can you fix it?" LOL, I guess so.


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## 78Vette (Nov 25, 2009)

Alias99 said:


> Live in GTA...looks like your SW Ontario


Well.. not all that far from me. I'm near London. If you want a good deal, PM me and we could meet half way, if you'd like.



jeffnc said:


> Just wondering what the odds of that would be....


Apparently pretty good. It's a small World...:thumbsup:


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## Sir MixAlot (Apr 4, 2008)

Gymschu said:


> The ones that stick out in my mind are the Homeowners who are life-long smokers and they tell you: "I don't know what all that yellow/brown staining is on our walls and ceilings, but, can you fix it?" LOL, I guess so.


Seen a few like that. And you don't realize how really bad they are until you start taking pictures off the walls.


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## Sir MixAlot (Apr 4, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> We are planning on removing the popcorn on the main floor where the smoke smell is stronger. Do you suggest removing the popcorn first and then washing the walls and the cieling with bleach/water?
> 
> ...


Yes, remove the popcorn ceiling texture first for sure. :thumbsup:

Have you tried using Google to find a contractor in your area for popcorn removal?


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## 78Vette (Nov 25, 2009)

Alias99 said:


> Thank you all for the great advice!
> 
> So based on the advice I should use one coat of say something like this: zinsser-bin-primer-sealer
> 
> How many gallons do you think i would need for about 2200 sq ft? Thanks again! I am very new to all this.


511 sq/ft per 3.7 L can. Depending on application method and porosity.
Does your mentioned 2200 sq/ft include the walls and is not just the floor layout/living area (ceilings)?


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> We are going to have the hardwood on the main floor sanded down and refinished.


Bleach proabably won't harm the polyurethane finish on a hardwood floor. Maybe test in an inconspicuous area first by applying bleach with a Q-Tip to the hardwood flooring and seeing if there's any damage caused.



Alias99 said:


> There is only carpet in the basement and 2nd floor but you can't smell much on those floors. That said, we are planning on getting the carpet professionally cleaned and will replace drapery.


The problem is not that bleach dripping off the ceiling onto the carpet will cause the carpet to get dirty, the problem is that any bleach dripping on the carpet will take the dye out of the carpet, leaving white spots on the carpet which can't be removed by cleaning.

If you have carpet on the floors in rooms where you will be cleaning the walls and ceilings with bleach, then you need to use something to protect the carpet from the bleach. The bleach will take the colour out of nylon and polyester carpets. Either use an old scrap carpet (which you can get free from any place that sells carpet) or use plastic tarps to cover and protect your carpet. (You can also buy linen sheets for bedding cheap at any Goodwill store in your area.) And, use a sponge to clean the bottoms of your shoes before walking out of the room where you're cleaning with bleach onto any flooring that might be damaged by bleach.

Having the carpet professionally cleaned will not remove any white spots on the carpet caused by bleach dripping on it.



Alias99 said:


> So I put the solution on the wall with a mop and the paint will likely change colour. And then use 100% bleach on the walls to remove the stain, correct?
> 
> Then spray water on the walls and ceilings - can I just use a regular mop to get the water off? Thanks!


Use a SPONGE MOP to clean the walls and ceilings with a bleach cleaning solution. Any other kind of mop will drip too much when you're using it.

The paint will likely change colour somewhat as the bleach breaks apart the tar and nicotine molecules on the wall, thereby removing the brownish discolouration on the walls and ceiliings. Maybe apply some bleach to a wall with a Q-tip and see if there's a perceptible colour change as a result of the bleach breaking up the tar and nicotine molecules.

You make the cleaning solution by mixing 1 part bleach with 5 parts water, NOT by using pure bleach. There's no reason to use pure bleach as diluted bleach is quite effective. Then, after cleaning with diluted bleach, you just need to clean the dried bleach cleaning solution off the walls and ceiliings with clean rinse water. You don't use straight 100% bleach at any time in the cleaning process; or at least you don't need to.

Your throat will start to feel a bit irritated after working with bleach for a while, so maybe buy a dust mask with filters on it for removing bleach fumes. You should be able to pick up a dust mask for bleach at any safety supply store. Either that, or do the work over a period of time, allowing your throat to recover after each cleaning session.

You can also use the sponge mop to clean the bleach off the ceiling with clean rinse water, but you just have to rinse the sponge mop out often enough and change your rinse water often enough to know that you're not just spreading the bleach residue around instead of removing it. Ideally it would be best to spray water on and squeegee it off. You can buy a cheap pump sprayer for misting plants at any garden store for $15 or so. You can also buy a garden sprayer for $35 or so. Any home center will sell wet/dry vaccuum cleaners and squeegee nozzles to go with them. There may be other ways to put the bleach cleaning solution on and take the rinse water off, but that's the way I do it because I have all of the tools to do it the way I described.


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## 78Vette (Nov 25, 2009)

You should also be prepared to put a coat of compound on all the seams/screw holes, after popcorn removal. What many drywallers do when do they tape knowing that popcorn will be sprayed, is only apply 2 coats of mudd without the need for a perfect finish.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Popcorn removal almost alway involves a skim coat.


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## Sir MixAlot (Apr 4, 2008)

ToolSeeker said:


> Popcorn removal almost alway involves a skim coat.


 Or at least some type of texture. I rarely have to skim coat if I'm doing a knockdown or skip trowel texture after the popcorn removal.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

One problem I've encountered is that if there's any "residue" (for lack of a better word) of popcorn "compound" on the ceiling after removing it, when put joint compound over it, it gets wetted again and sometimes messes up the compound when troweling. Anyone experience that?


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I really haven't.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> One problem I've encountered is that if there's any "residue" (for lack of a better word) of popcorn "compound" on the ceiling after removing it, when put joint compound over it, it gets wetted again and sometimes messes up the compound when troweling. Anyone experience that?


Could you not get rid of that residue by brushing the ceiling with a small push broom?

I was going to suggest using a leaf blower to blast it off the ceiling real fast, but people would have assumed I was joking.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

If I decide to leave the popcorn, to get rid of the nicotine on the ceiling, would I just use the diluted bleach on the ceiling as well?

Thanks!


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Bleach proabably won't harm the polyurethane finish on a hardwood floor. Maybe test in an inconspicuous area first by applying bleach with a Q-Tip to the hardwood flooring and seeing if there's any damage caused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With the naked eye, the wall colour seems to look normal as opposed to yellowish. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I thought the yellowish is seen once the bleach is applied? Thank you so much for the in-depth response as well!


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## fireweed (Jun 11, 2013)

When we bought our house it was smoked in for 30 something years. This is how we got rid of ALL the nicotine smell:
- tore out and threw out all carpeting, light fixtures (could have cleaned them but didn't like the style anyways), all the window coverings and blinds.
- refinished the hardwood floors that were under carpet
- took down the popcorn ceiling (it was only in living room/dining room. Luckily the drywall looked great underneath with no obvious seams
- scrubbed all walls, ceilings, windows, cabinets etc with bleach solution
- primed everything with BIN shellac primer - don't forget ceilings
- 2 coats of latex paint on top of that 
- got ducts and furnace cleaned

That took care of all the smell upstairs. The finished basement wasn't smoked in as much but we painted and cleaned all the walls, replaced ceiling tiles and installed new carpet in the basement.

You cannot smell smoke at all anymore. It's been 2.5 years since we bought it and it's been fine - even on high humidity days. I ask visitors often out of curiosity.

We love our home now but I wouldn't buy a smokers house again. It was a lot of work but nice to have a clean start.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias:

Yes, if you choose to leave the stipple ceiling, then washing the ceiling with water will remove MOST of the tar/nicotine residue. But, to remove it completely, you have to use a bleach cleaning solution to break up those remaining tar and nicotine molecules. That will eliminate the staining colour and smell completely (without using a sealing primer to seal the smell inside the wall).



Alias99 said:


> With the naked eye, the wall colour seems to look normal as opposed to yellowish. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I thought the yellowish is seen once the bleach is applied? Thank you so much for the in-depth response as well!



In this post I'm going to use the terms "smoke staining" and "tar/nicotine residue" interchangably cuz they're the same thing.

When you ask if the yellow colour appears AFTER you apply bleach, the answer is No. Perhaps the tar/nicotine deposits on your walls aren't nearly as bad as I am visualizing. On the top right corner of each post in this thread is a Post Number. Your last two posta were Post #31 and Post #32.

Go back and look at the picture in Post #19 by Gymschu. What that photo shows is a badly smoke stained wall. The two light rectangles are areas on the wall that weren't smoke stained because they were each covered by a picture. So, the actual colour of the paint on those walls is the light colour of the rectangles, and the yellow/brownish colour around those rectangles is caused by the tar/nicotine smoke staining from cigarette smoke.

The first picture in Post #11 by Sir MixALot shows what happens when you clean cigarette smoke staining off a wall. Most of the tar/nicotine stain dissolves in water and as that water drips down the wall it collects more and more tar and nicotine in it. When that water dries up, what you have left behind are brown streaks of tar and nicotine. The cleaned areas at the top of the wall in that picture looks pretty clean, but it's still not the actual colour of the paint. It's still got a bit of beige tar and nicotine stain on it. The only way to get back to the actual colour of the paint is to clean with a bleach cleaning solution to break up the remaining tar and nicotine molecules.

So, the beige colour I'm talking about is the discolouration caused by the smoke staining. Cleaning with water will remove MOST of that smoke staining. But, to remove the last remaining bits of it, you need to clean with a bleach based cleaning solution.

Hope this clarifies things.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Could you not get rid of that residue by brushing the ceiling with a small push broom?


No it's "sticky" stuff - really you'd need to spray water on it and scrape it off. In other words it's still part of the popcorn application, but it's just the thick goo, not the popcorn "kernels". It looks like you can smooth right over it with compound. If you work it too much, like passing the knife over that spot 2 or 3 times, it wrecks your smooth work.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Alias99 said:


> If I decide to leave the popcorn, to get rid of the nicotine on the ceiling, would I just use the diluted bleach on the ceiling as well?
> 
> Thanks!


Unless the popcorn has been painted there is no way you can wash it with anything. Water is what we use to remove it, to try and wash it it will come off.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Just had another painter come in and he was saying the smell isn't bad and the ceilings aren't yellow so they likely didn't smoke much. I mentioned cleaning the walls with bleach and he told me not to do that....and how it'll turn the paint different colours. But that's the point to eliminate the nicotine off the walls.

A cleaning lady said to use TSP on the walls as the bleach will kill bacteria but not remove the oil and tar. Based on a previous post in this thread it was said TSP won't do anything to latex paint. I guess I should stick the bleach then or do both?

Thanks again - really do appreciate all the advice!


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Actually I'm a little confused about Nestor's bleach advice. I agree TSP is not really a good choice for cleaning. It does clean and it is a degreaser, but not the best to use. Personally I've had very good results with TSP substitutes that don't require rinsing. Of course you'll wipe them off as part of cleaning, but they don't require the extra rinsing real TSP requires. TSP substitute is not necessarily a deglosser (some might claim deglossing on the label, and some do not). So if you're cleaning walls painted in semi-gloss, you will still want to scuff sand, but other than that, it seems to me to leave a surface that paint actually sticks better to. If there is any residue, it seems to be a helpful residue if anything.

Getting back to the bleach, Nestor refers to it as a cleaner, but bleach really isn't a cleaner. Bleach basically does 2 things:
- removes color
- kills living organisms

So it's used as a disinfectant/sanitizer/mold-algae killer. But as far as removing color, it's not really "cleaning". I mean, leaving things in sunlight also "bleaches" them, but doesn't "clean" them. Oxidizers break down the color components of things. It changes the molecule that provides the color, but it doesn't remove the molecule, hence it doesn't really clean.

So I don't really know if bleach as a chemical would "clean" smoke stained walls. It certainly could change their color. Maybe there's something specific about the chemicals in smoke that bleach will "break down", but generally you want to "clean" with a cleaner, which normally means a detergent of some kind. I suppose solvents for specific compounds could also be considered cleaners. Alcohol is an ingredient in some glass cleaners because it dissolves some of the oily smears that get on glass for example.

So I don't know if bleach would be a good solution for smoky walls - it would be the first I've heard of that, but it's possible I guess.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> Just had another painter come in and he was saying the smell isn't bad and the ceilings aren't yellow so they likely didn't smoke much. I mentioned cleaning the walls with bleach and he told me not to do that....and how it'll turn the paint different colours. But that's the point to eliminate the nicotine off the walls.
> 
> A cleaning lady said to use TSP on the walls as the bleach will kill bacteria but not remove the oil and tar. Based on a previous post in this thread it was said TSP won't do anything to latex paint. I guess I should stick the bleach then or do both?
> 
> Thanks again - really do appreciate all the advice!


That painter that said it would turn the paint different colours doesn't know what he's talking about. Use straight bleach right out of the jug on a Q-Tip to clean a square inch or two of your wall or ceiling, and if you don't see any lightening of the wall colour, then your smoke staining is very mild and you could probably get by with just cleaning the walls with tap water, shampoo'ing the carpet and laundering the drapes.

The cleaning lady that said to use TSP on the walls doesn't know what she's talking about either.

Use a Q-tip with undiluted bleach on it to clean a square inch or two of wall or ceiling space and see if you observe any colour change in that small area over the course of the next few seconds. If so, that lighter colour is the true colour of your paint. If you don't see any appreciable colour change, then the smoke staining is so minimal that you can probably just clean with water, and not bother with bleach.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Go find the person that told you to use TSP on your walls and hit him really hard for me.
> 
> Anyone that knows enough about paint to be giving advice will know that TSP won't do anything unless it is applied to a drying oil type paint (linseed oil or Tung oil). In that case, cleaning the wall with TSP will etch the gloss of the old paint, making it into a flat gloss so that the new paint adheres better. In every other case, the TSP won't do squat. Cleaning latex paint with TSP will be as effective at removing that nicotine and tar as cleaning it with ordinary tap water.
> 
> ...


Scrubbing with a TSP solution is a great way to tell if a trim paint is an alkyd or an acrylic. If it is alkyd(oil) it will dull the sheen. If it is acrylic(latex,i.e.water clean-up) it doesn't do jack squat. That's the only reason I have any in the store.

I can't believe after 30 years in this business salespeople are still telling customers to use TSP to clean before painting. I wonder how many paint failures are caused by this, And no one has a clue why there is a paint failure. I bet this is costing Behr, Valspar, etc. millions in replacement paint every year.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Could you not get rid of that residue by brushing the ceiling with a small push broom?
> 
> I was going to suggest using a leaf blower to blast it off the ceiling real fast, but people would have assumed I was joking.


Hey I have had people in my area that could blow Deckover and Restore off with a leaf blower!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> Actually I'm a little confused about Nestor's bleach advice.
> 
> Getting back to the bleach, Nestor refers to it as a cleaner, but bleach really isn't a cleaner. Bleach basically does 2 things:
> - removes color
> ...



JeffNC:

Household bleach is one of several chemicals called "oxidizing bleaches" because they spontaneously break down to form more stable compounds, and in the process, spit out a lone oxygen atom.

For example bleach, which is NaOCl breaks down to form salt water, and in the process spits out a lone oxygen atom. Hydrogen peroxide (HOOH) and ozone (O3) spontaneously break down to form water and oxygen gas, and in the process spit out a single oxygen atom.

Lone oxygen atoms are the horny drunken sailors of the chemical world. They will react with anything and everything that's unstable enough to react with them. And, those unstable things are most often large organic molecules. Oxygen atoms react with these large molecules at active sites on them, thereby breaking them up into pieces of molecules.

Chemical dyes that give our clothing colour and the smells and tastes in our food all come from large organic molecules. When any oxidizing bleach reacts with these molecules, the resulting pieces of molecules don't absorb light or affect the olefactory sensors in our nose the way the original molecule did, and that's what causes the broken pieces of molecules to become "disappear" from our senses. So, if you bleach a red cotton Tee Shirt, the red dye molecules are still on the shirt, only they're broken into pieces, none of which absorbs all the other colours of light except red the way the original molecule did. The result is chunks of molecules that don't absorb any light, and so what we see is normal white cotton.

Similarly, when a person who lives alone dies in their house, and the body isn't discovered until neighbors start to complain about the stench coming from the house, it's an ozone generator (also called an "ozone machine") that's used to eliminate the smell in the house before it's put up for sale by the beneficiaries of the will, or whatever. The ozone moelcules from the ozone machine molecules break down to form O2 gas and a lone oxygen atom. The oxygen atoms react with and break up those large organic molecules in the air which are causing the smell, and the pieces of those molecules don't affect the olefactory sensors in our noses the way the original molecule did, so we can't smell anything.

No living thing can survive having the molecules it's make of being broken into pieces, and this is why bleach will kill bacteria, mold and it's spores, and to my understanding, even viruses. It would also remove any taste from food if anyone would use bleach on their food before eating it.

Anyhow, this is how oxidizing bleaches work; by spontaneously breaking down to form more stable compounds and spitting out lone oxygen atoms in the process, and then those lone oxygen atoms react with and break apart large organic molecules they encounter. It's the fact that the pieces of those large organic molecules don't behave the same way as the original molecule did that makes them "invisible to our senses".

Using bleach to clean smoke stained walls will break the tar and nicotine molecules into pieces which will no longer have a beige colour and won't smell like stale smoke.

There are other "bleaches" that can remove colour from clothing, but "oxidizing bleaches" work by spontaneously breaking down to form more stable compounds and spitting out an oxygen atom when they do so. In the case of bleach, what you have in the water are Na+ ions and OCl- ions. It's those OCl- ions that break up to form oxygen atoms and chlorine ions that provide the oxygen atoms to do the dirty work. Chlorine ions themselves don't disinfect or remove colour from clothing. If they did, then anyone swimming in salt water on the beaches of Hawaii or Florida would have their skin irritated and their swim suits bleached white.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

OxiCLEAN is a type of bleach (there are more than one). Active ingredient-sodium percarbonate. But like nestor says, it isn't actually a "cleaner". Just acts like a typical "bleach" in a much safer form then a chlorine bleach.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

In case you forgot your basic chemistry don't EVER mix bleach and ammonia. Just seeing them both in the same thread gives me the heebie jeebies.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Also, I just realized there is popcorn ceilings on the second floor which we do not want to remove. I am a little confused on what to do with this. Is it okay to use the diluted bleach on this or will it cause it to look weird or break it down?

The walls are a greyish colour. If I apply the bleach won't it turn white anyway?

Going to the house shortly to try the bleach on a q-tip in a couple of areas. Will take pics of before and after.

Thanks!


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

So went to the house, put 100% bleach on a few q-tips and rubbed it on a couple of square inches on the wall and certain flat (non-popcorn) ceilings. See before and after pictures below (before picture is the one where you can see a circle which is the bleach on the wall).


After applying the bleach I let is dry for a bit and using a flash night I tried to find the spots and had a lot of trouble seeing any difference between the before and after application of the bleach. There may have been a little difference but very, very small. The colour of the paint was greyish and it may have turned a little lighter/whiter but again, very minor difference.

Does this mean that the walls and ceilings are pretty much OK and that using water to rinse them down would be enough?

Thanks again!


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Wash the walls with Dirtex then prime with BIN. Do not try to wash popcorn. I would not use bleach, I would under no circumstance use TSP. 

Or don't use the Dirtex and just prime with bin or cover stain. Popcorn, remove or paint, can't wash.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

78Vette said:


> 511 sq/ft per 3.7 L can. Depending on application method and porosity.
> Does your mentioned 2200 sq/ft include the walls and is not just the floor layout/living area (ceilings)?


Just floors.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Using bleach to clean smoke stained walls will break the tar and nicotine molecules into pieces which will no longer have a beige colour and won't smell like stale smoke.


OK that sounds reasonable (I didn't know it would change the smell as well as color.)

However, for painting purposes, I still would think you'd prefer to actually get that stuff off the wall. Although maybe just the water and sponging will do that, but in that case if it's gone, there doesn't seem to be much need for the bleach!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> Does this mean that the walls and ceilings are pretty much OK and that using water to rinse them down would be enough?


Correct. If anyone was smoking in that house, not enough smoke got into the rooms where you did the Q-Tip tests to be concerned about. There's no perceptible change in colour due to cleaning with bleach, and so there's not enough smoke residue on those walls to make any difference in colour. To get any smoke smell out of the house, I'd focus on shampoo-ing the carpets and laundering the curtains. Those have very much more surface area than walls and ceilings, and so they harbour much more odors than flat surfaces.

Be careful if your carpet is old. Old carpets have lots of organic matter accumulated in the pile, (skin cells, paper fibers, pollen, cotton fibers, etc.) and if you get the carpet wet, all of that organic matter will start to rot and create a stink worse than the cigarette smoke. Professional carpet cleaners will add a biocide to their solution tank to kill any bacteria the solution tank water contacts, and that prevents the rotting and subsequent stink that cleaning with just tap water only might create. So, on this one you might want to hire a carpet cleaning company to clean your carpet if it's old and you suspect it might stink if you get it wet. That is in fact why dogs smell after they get wet. They have enough organic matter in and under their fur, that when they get wet it's a bacterium's idea of heaven; plenty of food, and the ability to move around in the water. So, the bacteria multiply like crazy and I think it's the gasses that the bacteria produce when they feed that creates that rotten smell.

Alternatively, shampoo the carpet yourself, but use a dehumidifier or an air conditioner to remove the moisture from the air in the room, causing the carpet to dry out much faster than it otherwise would. Once the carpet is dry again, that bacterial action where the bacteria feed on all the organic crap in the carpet stops, and hence the smell dissipates.

You could probably get most of the smoke smell out of your curtains by simply soaking them in water, and without actually laundering them in a washing machine. Just add some laundry soap to your water and agitate with your hands periodically. The tar and nicotine from cigarette smoke is largely soluble in water, but I've found that on walls the water will get MOST of the smoke staining off, but you have to use bleach to get it ALL off. On your Q-tip tested walls, there isn't enough smoke staining to be concerned about. I wouldn't bother doing anything to your Q-Tip tested walls other than simply repainting them as desired.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Correct. If anyone was smoking in that house, not enough smoke got into the rooms where you did the Q-Tip tests to be concerned about. There's no perceptible change in colour due to cleaning with bleach, and so there's not enough smoke residue on those walls to make any difference in colour. To get any smoke smell out of the house, I'd focus on shampoo-ing the carpets and laundering the curtains. Those have very much more surface area than walls and ceilings, and so they harbour much more odors than flat surfaces.
> 
> Be careful if your carpet is old. Old carpets have lots of organic matter accumulated in the pile, (skin cells, paper fibers, pollen, cotton fibers, etc.) and if you get the carpet wet, all of that organic matter will start to rot and create a stink worse than the cigarette smoke. Professional carpet cleaners will add a biocide to their solution tank to kill any bacteria the solution tank water contacts, and that prevents the rotting and subsequent stink that cleaning with just tap water only might create. So, on this one you might want to hire a carpet cleaning company to clean your carpet if it's old and you suspect it might stink if you get it wet. That is in fact why dogs smell after they get wet. They have enough organic matter in and under their fur, that when they get wet it's a bacterium's idea of heaven; plenty of food, and the ability to move around in the water. So, the bacteria multiply like crazy and I think it's the gasses that the bacteria produce when they feed that creates that rotten smell.
> 
> ...


Thank you again so much!

I wonder where the smell is coming from because there are few drapes on the main floor. Could it be on the blinds? Would you recommend replacing those or getting rid of them?

I am going to hire a carpet cleaning service to come in and do the carpets in the basement and the top floor. We are planning on either getting the hardwood on the main floor buffed and refinished or sanded down and refinished.

As for the walls, I think we're going to go in and wash the walls with water. Any particular type of water we should use (i.e., hot, cold), should we use soap as well? 

Lastly, can we use water on the popcorn ceilings just to clean it? I had two painters come in today and they both said if we paint the stucco it won't look as good anymore. Not sure what to do about this.

Thanks!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> OK that sounds reasonable (I didn't know it would change the smell as well as color.)
> 
> However, for painting purposes, I still would think you'd prefer to actually get that stuff off the wall. Although maybe just the water and sponging will do that, but in that case if it's gone, there doesn't seem to be much need for the bleach!


The problem is this:

You can wash the walls (and ceiliings) with water, and that will remove MOST of the smoke staining. I believe that's because tar and nicotine are soluble in water. But, in my experience with badly smoke stained walls, a brownish tint will still remain even after cleaning with water.

Bleach will remove that residual brown discolouration by breaking up the molecules that are causing that discolouration (and any smell associated with it).

But, another point that I did not mention previously, is the the broken fragments of large organic molecules tend to be more easily suspended in water than the large original molecules would be. That is, small pieces of molecules tend to be more soluble in water because they're smaller. So, even though no one can say that ALL of those original smoke stain molecules will be removed, we can at least say that what's left of them won't cause any discolouration, or smell, and there should be less crap there because the pieces are more soluble in water. That's about the best we can do with existing technology.

Scrubbing the wall with a brush, rag or Magic Eraser doesn't remove that residual brownish stain from badly smoke stained walls, so what other option is there?

PS: Typically, Name Brand bleaches like Chlorox and Javex are 6 1/4 percent NaOCl, whereas No Name bleach is typically 5 percent NaOCl. So, bleach is mostly water, and that water will suspend a lot of molecule fragments in solution.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> I wonder where the smell is coming from because there are few drapes on the main floor. Could it be on the blinds? Would you recommend replacing those or getting rid of them?


It could be. Do a Q-tip test on the blinds and see if they need cleaning. You could simply wipe the blinds off with a sponge dipped in a dilute bleach cleaning solution. Be careful of dripping bleach on any flooring that could be damaged by bleach, tho.



Alias99 said:


> I am going to hire a carpet cleaning service to come in and do the carpets in the basement and the top floor. We are planning on either getting the hardwood on the main floor buffed and refinished or sanded down and refinished.


I'd clean your hardwood floors with a sponge mop to get rid of MOST of any smoke staining that's on them. Maybe try a Q-tip test on the floors to see if they're smoke stained enough to warrant using bleach to clean them.



Alias99 said:


> As for the walls, I think we're going to go in and wash the walls with water. Any particular type of water we should use (i.e., hot, cold), should we use soap as well?


Tell you the truth, I would simply clean any marks off your Q-tip tested walls with a damp Magic Eraser, and proceed with painting over them. If you are dead set on cleaning them, then I would use a very dilute solution of Mr. Clean in water. There should be instructions on the Mr. Clean label as to dilution rates. Use the highest dilution rate since there's nothing really on your walls (except dust, perhaps) that needs to be removed prior to repainting.




Alias99 said:


> Lastly, can we use water on the popcorn ceilings just to clean it? I had two painters come in today and they both said if we paint the stucco it won't look as good anymore. Not sure what to do about this.


Yes, you can clean your ceilings with water, but I would use a nylon or Tampico bristle brush on the end of a painting pole instead of a sponge mop. A brush won't get torn up by the texture on your ceilings the way a sponge would. If you can find a brush that's 10 inches wide or less, you can use a paint roller tray to wet your brush in. Just put down cotton or linen drop clothes (or bed sheets cheap from Good Will) and go nutz with the brush. Let the dirty water drip off the ceiling onto the drop cloths so that you don't need to remove the water from the ceiling. Launder the drop cloths afterward. Any janitorial supply company listed under "Janitorial Equipment & Supplies" in your yellow pages phone directory will sell nylon and tampico fiber brushes in various width with and without threaded holes in them for screwing onto a painting pole. You should also be able to find something in your local home center as well.

PS: Tampico fiber is similar to cellulose in that water "sticks to it". Tampico fibers absorb water and become a bit softer when wet. Water also sticks to nylon, but not as well as it does to Tampico. And, nylon doesn;t soften when wet. Look in your yellow pages and any Janitorial Supply store will sell Tampico fiber brushes which you can use to clean the textured surfaces in your house.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> It could be. Do a Q-tip test on the blinds and see if they need cleaning. You could simply wipe the blinds off with a sponge dipped in a dilute bleach cleaning solution. Be careful of dripping bleach on any flooring that could be damaged by bleach, tho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I were to do a q-tip test on the floors, wouldn't it turn the hardwood white? Actually, on the walls when I did the q-tip test because it was 100% bleach shouldn't the walls have turned white?

Lastly, if I may ask, what are your thoughts on painting the stucco?

Thanks again - not sure how else to say it but really appreciate all your help. It's our first home and your knowledge and assistance is making us feel a lot more comfortable!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

jeffnc said:


> OK that sounds reasonable (I didn't know it would change the smell as well as color.)
> 
> However, for painting purposes, I still would think you'd prefer to actually get that stuff off the wall. Although maybe just the water and sponging will do that, but in that case if it's gone, there doesn't seem to be much need for the bleach!



OK, Good. If you understood that bleach, hydrogen peroxide and ozone all spontaneously break down to form salt water, water and oxygen gas, and spit out a lone oxygen atom each time they do that, and it's those lone oxygen atoms that break apart the large organic molecules in dyes and that cause smells in the air and tastes, you know more than 99% of people about how oxidizing bleaches work.

*NOW, there's only one exception to that general game plan that I'm aware of. Even though hydrogen peroxide will break apart the large organic molecules in your hair that give it colour, it won't break apart the dye molecules that give fabrics, draperies and upholstery colour.
*
I don't know why; the oxygen molecules are the same in all cases. It might have something to do with the stability of hydrogen peroxide. Ozone breaks down to form oxygen within a few hours. Bleach breaks down to form salt water over the course of a few years. Hydrogen peroxide is the slowest to break down into water. But, because hydrogen peroxide doesn't harm fabric dyes, I use it all the time to remove stains from my draperies. I just put the hydrogen peroxide on the stain with an eye dropper and let it work. Gradually, the stain disappears with no change at all to the colour of the drapery. In fact, hydrogen peroxide is the chemical that professional carpet cleaners use to remove stains from draperies and upholstery, and you can buy it cheap in any drug store.

So, why that's the case, I don't know. But now you know that you CAN use hydrogen peroxide on fabrics, and that is valuable knowledge. It works just like bleach or ozone, but it doesn't harm fabric dyes for some reason.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> If I were to do a q-tip test on the floors, wouldn't it turn the hardwood white? Actually, on the walls when I did the q-tip test because it was 100% bleach shouldn't the walls have turned white?


No, your hardwood floors are coated with either polyurethane or Carnauba Wax. The bleach wouldn't penetrate through either of those floor finishes. And, professional woodworkers find that ordinary bleach isn't strong enough to remove wood stains from wood. They have to mix up stronger bleach solutions by dissolving Potassium Hypochloride (KOCl) crystals in water to make a solution strong enough to remove wood stains. Potassium hypochlorite is the stuff that's added to swimming pool water to "chlorinate" it. (But remember, it's not the Cl in the OCl- ions that kill germs, it's that the OCl- ions break down to form oxygen atoms and Cl- ions, and it's those oxygen atoms that do the killin. Otherwise the worlds salt water oceans would be sterile expanses of lifeless water.)



Alias99 said:


> Lastly, if I may ask, what are your thoughts on painting the stucco?


I'm not a painter by trade, but I don't see any problems with painting OVER *painted* texture or stucco. People paint over painted textured walls and ceilings inside their homes and over painted stucco exteriors on their homes all the time.

But, if a texture is sprayed on, and not painted, it has a particular look to it that painting over it would change by painting over it. Similarily, if stucco on the exterior of your house isn't painted, it has a look to it that would change by painting over it.

So, I'd see what some of the professional painters in here tell you about painting over unpainted texture or stucco. But, if it were me, I would be happy to paint over anything that's already been painted, but I would't paint over anything that hasn't been previously painted unless and until I talked to a knowledgeable painter about it.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> No, your hardwood floors are coated with either polyurethane or Carnauba Wax. The bleach wouldn't penetrate through either of those floor finishes. And, professional woodworkers find that ordinary bleach isn't strong enough to remove wood stains from wood. They have to mix up stronger bleach solutions by dissolving Potassium Hypochloride (KOCl) crystals in water to make a solution strong enough to remove wood stains. Potassium hypochlorite is the stuff that's added to swimming pool water to "chlorinate" it. (But remember, it's not the Cl in the OCl- ions that kill germs, it's that the OCl- ions break down to form oxygen atoms and Cl- ions, and it's those oxygen atoms that do the killin. Otherwise the worlds salt water oceans would be sterile expanses of lifeless water.)


Is that the same reason the walls didn't turn white when I applied the 100% bleach to it?

Also, I imagine after using the diluted Mr. Clean, we would then proceed to rinse the walls with water to get the soap off of it, correct?

Thanks again!


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

So we washed the entire main floor today with mr clean diluted and then using a sponge mop and water rinsed it off. Tried hard to make sure all the soap came off but if some got left on will that cause as issue for the primer (I.e., adhesion)? Thanks


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## layryan88 (May 18, 2015)

no just give it time to completely dry


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Alias99 said:


> Is that the same reason the walls didn't turn white when I applied the 100% bleach to it?


No, a latex paint film on a wall is a film of clear colourless plastic with solid particles suspended inside it very much like the raisins in raisin bread. The particles suspended inside that plastic film are coloured pigments and extender pigments. The coloured pigments are very tiny and give the film colour and the extender pigments are more coarsely ground and lessen the gloss of the dry film. Were it not for extender pigments, all paints would dry to a high gloss film.

The bleach didn't affect the colour of the paint for two reasons. First, the coloured pigments are encased in the plastic film, so the bleach never actually came into contact with the coloured pigments. Secondly, a lot of coloured pigments are metal oxides, like titanium dioxide and iron oxide, and are extremely chemically stable, and therefore they aren't affected by bleach.




Alias99 said:


> Also, I imagine after using the diluted Mr. Clean, we would then proceed to rinse the walls with water to get the soap off of it, correct?


Yes, you really should. But, if you used the Mr. Clean at a really high dilution ratio, the residual detergent probably wouldn't do anything to the paint. Latex paints have detergents in them already to help them wet the surface they're applied to for better adhesion. The residual Mr. Clean would simply add to the surfactants already in the paint.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Thank you so much! We're going back tomorrow to finish up cleaning the walls.

The sponges didn't get too dirty which kind of indicates to me the walls aren't all that dirty. When rinsing the soap though the bucket was getting a little dirty.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

A little dirty isn't a problem. People paint over dirty walls all the time.

If it were my house, I'd clean the walls and ceilings before painting them too.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

We did the rest today. Just the basement left - no smell in the basement but figured we may as well. Put some vinagar in some buckets around the house as well. Had Painters come in today and they said they didn't smell anything.

Thanks again for all the advice!


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

Just a quick update - after cleaning pretty much all the walls, doors etc...the smell seems to be mostly gone. Still put some vinegar out to help.

Bought BIN primer and hopefully well get the house primed and painted within the next couple of weeks. Any recommendation on paint brands? Was thinking Benjamin Moore


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## pman6 (Jul 11, 2012)

dunno if anyone mentioned. But ozone machine supposedly gets rid of the smell.

Not sure if it actually removes the stain though


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Alias99 said:


> Just a quick update - after cleaning pretty much all the walls, doors etc...the smell seems to be mostly gone. Still put some vinegar out to help.
> 
> Bought BIN primer and hopefully well get the house primed and painted within the next couple of weeks. Any recommendation on paint brands? Was thinking Benjamin Moore


:thumbsup:


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

> Was thinking Benjamin Moore


I'll tell you a dirty little secret if you promise not to tell anyone...

So far as I know, the only paint company that makes it's own acrylic resins is ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries of Britain). Everyone else, including Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, Pratt & Lambert, Pittsburg, and everyone else buys their acrylic resins from the chemical companies that make plastic resins, notably Rohm & Haas (now part of DuPont), Akzo Nobel, Dow, and others.

And, it's the same story for all the other chemicals that go into a gallon of paint. The coloured pigments are bought from chemical companies like Sun Chemical, BASF, and Bayer. Other chemical companies like Eastman Chemical sell the coalescing solvents for latex paints. Other chemical companies sell the rheology modifiers, still others sell the white TiO2 pigments and the list goes on.

So, none of the paint companies make their own paint from scratch, they all buy the ingredients for making latex paint from the chemical companies that sell those products. And, as you would expect, each chemical company is continuously sending it's sales reps to take the CEO of each paint company out to lunch to impress on him how much better their latest and greatest offing would improve his paint's performance. And, as you would expect, that CEO isn't going to buy the product unless he's convinced the extra money he has to pay for it is going to improve his paint's performance sufficiently to justify a higher price point. So, the bottom line is that anyone can make the best paint in the world if they're willing to buy all the latest and greatest offerings from the chemical suppliers.

There is a company called "C2 Paints". C2 used to buy the latest and greatest everything that came available SO THAT they could have independant lab tests done to compare C2 paint to Pratt & Lambert Accolade, Benjamin Moore "Regal" line (which includes Aqua Velvet and Aqua Pearl) and Sherwilliams SuperPaint. And predictibly, the C2 paints performed the best in all those comparison tests.. But, the paint cost from $65 to $75 per gallon. C2 doesn't do that any more, but at one time they did it just to supply their marketing department with a lot of comparison charts showing how C2 outperformed all the other paints.

http://c2paint.com/

So, buy any paint company's "top-of-the-line" paint and you'll be getting the best paint that company can put together for the customer who wants quality, but not at an unreasonable price.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> I'll tell you a dirty little secret if you promise not to tell anyone...
> 
> So far as I know, the only paint company that makes it's own acrylic resins is ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries of Britain). Everyone else, including Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, Pratt & Lambert, Pittsburg, and everyone else buys their acrylic resins from the chemical companies that make plastic resins, notably Rohm & Haas (now part of DuPont), Akzo Nobel, Dow, and others.
> 
> ...


What about the tint base? Does not BM have a different one than all others? genix (sp) or something?


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

chrisn said:


> What about the tint base? Does not BM have a different one than all others? genix (sp) or something?


Chrisn: A tint base is nothing more than a gallon of paint with the colourants added to make it the right colour taken out.

Benjamin Moore makes it's tint bases with the chemicals it buys from the various chemical companies. It follows the advice of those chemical companies on how to integrate each additive into it's paint formulations. About the only thing in a can of Benjamin Moore latex paint that's provided by Benjamin Moore is the water. And, that's true for all the paint companies.

No single paint company in the world has the technical expertise to make their own acrylic resins, coloured pigments, extender pigments, coalescing solvents, rheology modifiers, mildewcides, rust inhibitors, glycols to prevent the paint from freezing if you leave it in the trunk of your car overnight in winter, etc. It's the various chemical companies that make these products and sell them to Benny Moore, Mr. Pratt and Mr. Lambert, Mr. S. Williams, etc. And, that's true of all paints.

It's directly analagous to making a computer; several different companies make the chips that another company puts on it's circuit boards, and the resulting motherboard works with this company's video card and that company's hard drive and a third company's BIOS. The bottom line is that the company whose name is on the computer case didn't actually make ANY of the components that are in the box. They bought those components from other companies that specialize in each kind of component. It's exactly the same thing with making a can of paint.

So, just as with paint, any computer company can make the best personal computer in the world as long as they're willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest technological marvel available form each of the companies that supply computer components. It's the same with paint, only the decision as to whether a new chemical provides sufficient improvement in paint performance to justify it's higher cost is perhaps a more difficult one to make. The basic game plan is that each paint company will offer typically two lines of paint; it's "budget priced" paint and it's "top-of-the-line" paint. The budget priced paint give the best value for your dollar if you're watching how you spend your dollars. The "top-of-the-line" paints are for people who have more dollars to spend and want the best quality paint at a justifiable price.

So, how good each company's top-of-the-line paint is isn't a limitation of that company's paint chemists or their engineering department to mix the paint according to the chemist's instructions, but rather a management decision on what price point to shoot for to best serve their established customer base as well as attract new customers to increase market share. ANY paint company can make the best paint in the world by buying all the latest chemical wizardry from the chemical companies that cater to the paint manufacturing industry. But, few customers are willing to pay a lot more for paint that's only a little better.


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## Alias99 (Jun 20, 2015)

The Painter I hired started priming today and I took a look at how he did it and had a couple of questions. Firstly, the BIN primer I purchased for him to use wasn't tinted by the Painter - that said, we initially planned 2 coats of paint on top of the primer. Is this OK?

Also, doesn't look like he hit every single spot on the wall with the primer (i.e., corners). Should I ask him to touch all those up so every single spot is covered with the primer?

Thanks!


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