# copper clad aluminum



## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

i honestly don't know the rule but why not use cu/al wire nuts anyways. Cover all your bases, for the cost of a few extra bucks you can have peace of mind.

edit 
i just found this
110.14 Electrical Connections

Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and *copper-clad aluminum*, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Yes thank you for posting the 110.14. So what is the clarity in that??? *er-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use* ... So all I have to do is put whatever nut I want there and label it copper clad aluminum to copper connection? Then I identified it and I'm being compliant to code right?


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I have never seen copper clad aluminum ever used for branch circuit wiring. 15 and 20 amps. I have seen aluminum or copper. Or I did not know?
Copper clad is reserved for large metallic surfaces where pure copper would not be cost effective. A ground rod would be a good example of a copper clad application. Bus bars are another.
Anyway your question is a bit hard to understand as the remedy for AL to CU is simple. This is what I would use in your case.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

I would also use the alumiconn connector if I had a CU/AL connection to make. I'm trying to make a CU/CCA connection. I haven't read anywhere on any site selling the king innovations connector that specifies it is to be used in that kind of connection. It states CU/CU , CU/AL, AL/AL. Why would I buy a box of 100 for $311 if it is perfectly acceptable to use a standard CU/CU wire nut with Noalox or similar? Just looking for a little more clarification.


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

that rule i posted says it's not ok to use a regular wire nut, you have to use equipment rated for cu/al connections.

Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where *physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors* (such as copper and aluminum, *copper AND copper-clad aluminum*, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use.

You asked for an answer, i provided it. I get the feeling you don't like the answer and your going to use cu/cu equipment anyways. There is no cca designation for splices, it's considered as aluminum. What happens when you knick the copper cladding? you now have aluminum wire and copper mixed together, this wire will fall apart eventually. They used copper clad aluminum way back in the day when they realized aluminum was bad but copper was still too expensive. It only needs a surface area of 10% copper so it's easy for a wire nut to knick it.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

It's not that I don't like the answer, I am all about doing what is right per code no matter the dollar amount. It's just that when you have 3 " master electricians" come into your home and they tell you the way "they" would go about pigtailing copper to copper clad aluminum is by using a regular wire nut with Noalox. It was by my "own" research that threw up the red flags about it. I understand the only approved permanent fix for AL to CU is the Alumiconn connector and the Copalum crimper. However by what you are saying is that copper clad aluminum should be treated as aluminum, therefore those would be my only 2 choices. So the master technicians I had come to quote me are wrong?


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

your basically doing the same thing that the purple wire nuts were designed to do, here's an article on how well they perform. 
http://www.alcopstore.com/
granted this is biased due to the source, but it's been a long time since i've seen a noalux install. Personally i think it all boils down to people doing things the right way. If you install a noalox wire nut and then take it off then reinstall it without refilling then it's likely going to break down eventually. As with everything the equipment is probably good it's the person doing the install that can screw it up.

So your guys are probably right......provided they do all the connections absolutely perfect. 
ideal still sells these with a UL and CSA listing so they haven't cracked down too hard on them yet.
http://www.idealindustries.com/products/wire_termination/twist-on/twister_al-cu.jsp


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf I don't know how to copy and paste from a PDF file or I would.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

Copper clad aluminum is helpful for electronic circuits with high frequencies since alternating current at high frequencies tends to be conducted near the surface of the conductor (skin effect). For household power the skin effect is negligible and you must use the current ratings and rules for aluminum wire.

When aluminum wire is clamped or otherwise screwed down firmly, when it expands due to heat, it deforms in a way that when it cools down and contracts, there is now a gap i.e. loose connection. CO/ALR terminals put some spring pressure on the wires so as they expand and contract they stay in contact. In addition, aluminum corrodes more readily than copper in less than perfectly dry air so a grease is needed to coat the connection.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

So you're saying that copper clad aluminum should follow the same rules as AL. But in the publication from the CSPC describing the ways to permanently fix AL wiring issues does it state : be sure to read as much of the markings as possible because the marking "CU-clad" or "copper clad" in addition to "AL" aluminum means that this cable uses copper-coated aluminum wire and is NOT covered by the repair recommendations outlined in this publication. And there is no "fix" for copper clad wiring because it is deemed " safe " and no correction is needed.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

You want to know something...

When you analyze the price, you are probably better off running new copper circuits to the kitchen anyway. A 250' roll of 12-2 romex is like 75 buck or something.


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## kevinp22 (Sep 23, 2010)

i agree, i bought a 250 foot roll at the orange store last week and it was 69 bucks. i think it was almost 80 bucks about 6 months ago. copper prices have been falling due to the "soft landing" of china's economy

also, dont use copper clad for anything except 5/8 and 3/4 ground rods


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

It really isn't about the price... I'm just trying to find a correct answer that doesn't seem to exist.. I'm already running new copper to the kitchen to meet the stringent codes regarding counter top receptacles. There is a 20A circuit by the sink with the copper clad that I had planned on leaving though. That's part of the reason I started all of the research due to the fact they don't make a CO/ALR GFCI anymore which would be required for the copper clad to be pigtailed with copper.. Even that one I'm not sure of anymore.. :confused1:


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

J. V. said:


> I have never seen copper clad aluminum ever used for branch circuit wiring. 15 and 20 amps. I have seen aluminum or copper. Or I did not know?
> Copper clad is reserved for large metallic surfaces where pure copper would not be cost effective. A ground rod would be a good example of a copper clad application. Bus bars are another.
> Anyway your question is a bit hard to understand as the remedy for AL to CU is simple. This is what I would use in your case.


60's through the 70's http://www.buildingspecs.com/aluminum_branch_wiring.php

*Copper Clad Aluminum*

Copper Clad Aluminum is easily mistaken for copper. It does not have the same problem with oxidation build up as aluminum. It is typically a #12 wire and still needs proper devices with the larger screw heads or approved pig tailing methods. To identify Copper Clad Aluminum, look for a silver color at the ends of the wires where they are connected to the grounding bar. Copper Clad Aluminum can also be identified in the attic or crawlspace, or other locations where the wiring is visible, by looking for the identification on the wire sheathing, i.e. CU Clad AL.


Also http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...www.icf.at/en/6049/copper_clad_aluminium.html


And of course the Inspectapedia link http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> It's just that when you have 3 " master electricians" come into your home and they tell you the way "they" would go about pigtailing copper to copper clad aluminum is by using a regular wire nut with Noalox.


Those so called "master" electricians should try educating themselves first before claiming that title.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Where do they get the education from? I can't find any definitive answers concerning the "proper" action required with the use of copper clad aluminum anywhere. So they definitely can't educate themselves on the internet which is the only place to get a good eduamicasion.. Especially when it involves electricity..


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> Where do they get the education from? I can't find any definitive answers concerning the "proper" action required with the use of copper clad aluminum anywhere. So they definitely can't educate themselves on the internet which is the only place to get a good eduamicasion.. Especially when it involves electricity..


The nec code section has already been posted...so why anyone would suggest a wire nut and noalox is beyond me.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

CopperClad said:


> Where do they get the education from? I can't find any definitive answers concerning the "proper" action required with the use of copper clad aluminum anywhere. So they definitely can't educate themselves on the internet which is the only place to get a good eduamicasion.. Especially when it involves electricity..


You learn from doing, and working beside those with experience. The thing is, you are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. Aluminum is no more dangerous as Copper, as long as it is done correctly. That means proper equipment, using the correct methods to terminate and also making sure that it is maintained as specified by the rules and instructions in the NEC, and manufacturer spec's.

Now of course, those who like to strike fear into people, for instance Home Inspectors, that do not understand that AL is no more dangerous than Cu, as long as you install and maintain it properly, love to cause the Chicken Little Effect.

It is only when people bypass proper rules, do not maintain and inspect the equipment or wiring, then you have problems. The reason that Copper is placed over Aluminum wiring, is to protect it from oxidizing. Now of course, you are probably wondering, what is keeping the little small amount showing at the end of the "stinger" from oxidizing, it would be because, there is not enough surface area for it to happen.

If you look at your main drop, or even at the high voltage wires across the distribution systems, it is the majority Aluminum wire at the core.


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

i'm from canada and it took me about 30 seconds to find the NEC rule on google so i suggest the internet is a great place to find out :thumbsup:


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

And again. The NEC 110.14 is vague in the least. *ical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors* (such as copper and aluminum, *copper AND copper-clad aluminum*, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. So let me break the "answer" down. If you use copper to aluminum, you use a CU/AL connector. If you use copper and copper-clad aluminum, then by what you're saying you use a CU/AL connector. But if you use aluminum and copper-clad you use...um.. AL/AL but wait, it states it's a dissimilar conductor, so you would use a AL/CU connector? If it was a similar conductor why would it even list it?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> And again. The NEC 110.14 is vague in the least. *ical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors* (such as copper and aluminum, *copper AND copper-clad aluminum*, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. So let me break the "answer" down. If you use copper to aluminum, you use a CU/AL connector. If you use copper and copper-clad aluminum, then by what you're saying you use a CU/AL connector. But if you use aluminum and copper-clad you use...um.. AL/AL but wait, it states it's a dissimilar conductor, so you would use a AL/CU connector? If it was a similar conductor why would it even list it?


I don't see where it is vague at all, you need a device listed for cu and cu clad aluminum... if you can't find such a device listed for your application then just abandon the existing wiring. You're just reading the section the way you want to read it, not the way it was written.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

So you're stating that the millions of americans that have copper clad wiring should.. Gut their houses?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> So you're stating that the millions of americans that have copper clad wiring should.. Gut their houses?


Of course not, just don't splice the existing wiring with wire of different characteristics of dissimilar metals without an approved device.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

I understand that. It is the year 2012.. Am I the only person with a house from the 70's that is trying to update a home to "code" that requires GFCI in the kitchen whom has copper clad wiring? Maybe it has never been an issue because the "masters" just use the regular CU/CU wire nuts, with the Noalox and deem that as meeting code requirements. They obviously must have passed a few inspections in there day.. Again, I'm just a son trying to do right for his parents. I just am trying to find out the "right" way.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> I understand that. It is the year 2012.. Am I the only person with a house from the 70's that is trying to update a home to "code" that requires GFCI in the kitchen whom has copper clad wiring? Maybe it has never been an issue because the "masters" just use the regular CU/CU wire nuts, with the Noalox and deem that as meeting code requirements. They obviously must have passed a few inspections in there day.. Again, I'm just a son trying to do right for his parents. I just am trying to find out the "right" way.


You certainly can do whatever you want to, but if it was my insurance and liability, you would be getting a new circuit installed.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

So I just found interesting info on UL.com. I don't know how to copy and paste from a PDF file so I will just type it out. Supply terminals of 15A and 20A switches and receptacles NOT marked "CO/ALR" are for use with copper and copper-clad aluminum conductors only. Terminals MARKED "CO/ALR" are for use with aluminum, copper, and copper-clad aluminum... So with that being read, I technically can hook a standard GFCI directly to the copper-clad aluminum without using a copper pigtail at all.. correct?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> So I just found interesting info on UL.com. I don't know how to copy and paste from a PDF file so I will just type it out. Supply terminals of 15A and 20A switches and receptacles NOT marked "CO/ALR" are for use with copper and copper-clad aluminum conductors only. Terminals MARKED "CO/ALR" are for use with aluminum, copper, and copper-clad aluminum... So with that being read, I technically can hook a standard GFCI directly to the copper-clad aluminum without using a copper pigtail at all.. correct?


Yes. but I would adhere to the tightening torques of the device being installed...


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

So if I can hook copper clad aluminum to a CU receptacle, then wouldn't it be interpreted that I would be able to use a CU/CU wire nut for a copper to copper clad splice?


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> So if I can hook copper clad aluminum to a CU receptacle, then wouldn't it be interpreted that I would be able to use a CU/CU wire nut for a copper to copper clad splice?


No, because the device is listed, the wire nut it not... 

Just like the NEC says.  As I stated before, you can "do" anything you want. Here is an opinion for you though, why not install the copper clad on one set of screws on the device, and copper on the other set of screws, this way you have a legal splice.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Copperclad, face it. You are just winning a losing battle with the youngster.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

LOL ! I'm not trying to win anything. I'm just trying to gain knowledge on the particular subject so I don't let some master electrician burn my parents house down, or pull a fast one on them either.. I just joined this forum yesterday so about the youngster comment, more then likely I'm the youngster.. I don't remember revealing my age during registration, but it has been a frustrating few days trying to find out my answer..


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

The way I see it, legally, you cannot splice copper clad with any aluminum or copper without an approved/listed product, you could call the company that makes the splice kits and ask for there blessing on the situation.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

I disagree. I think its perfectly acceptable to use the Alumiconn connector which states it is UL listed for CU/CU , CU/AL, and AL/AL. But at $311 for a box of 100, what electrician in their right mind would pay that much for a CU/CU connection? If that indeed is what a copper clad to copper connection is. Still haven't found a definitive answer yet.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> I disagree. I think its perfectly acceptable to use the Alumiconn connector which states it is UL listed for CU/CU , CU/AL, and AL/AL. But at $311 for a box of 100, what electrician in their right mind would pay that much for a CU/CU connection? If that indeed is what a copper clad to copper connection is. Still haven't found a definitive answer yet.


Where did you read they were listed for copper clad? And copper to copper clad is not a cu/cu connection. If it was, the nec would never address copper clad to begin with. It's a permissive document. In my eyes, $311 bucks sounds like a bargain vs hiring a lawyer and going to court.


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

i just checked it out, levitrons gfci are good for copper and copper clad as well, that should solve your problem right there, no joints needed anymore. It's possible that this is a case by case situation. Every situation that would arise like this would require a different fix. I don't think there will be a "universal fix' out there.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

No where does it say its listed for copper clad.. Only definitive thing I read was on the UL site that stated the acceptable use for copper clad on devices without the listing of CO/ALR. To my knowledge the only other receptacle that is made is listed for CU only. Therefore, UL would be considering copper clad fitting that criteria. With that, my "assumption" would follow the same guidelines for wire nuts.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Andrew. So safe to say the electricians did have it right with a regular CU/CU wire nut with Noalox then? If so then case is closed.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

IMO, we can't take two products of the shelf and make our own listed product, another example of this would be taking silicon and injecting a wire nut and calling it a direct burial wire nut.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

If UL states its acceptable to use a copper clad conductor on a CU receptacle, why wouldn't the same rule apply for a wire nut? I'm not making it my "own" , I'm just trying to interpret the way it was vaguely written.


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## stickboy1375 (Apr 28, 2012)

CopperClad said:


> If UL states its acceptable to use a copper clad conductor on a CU receptacle, why wouldn't the same rule apply for a wire nut? I'm not making it my "own" , I'm just trying to interpret the way it was vaguely written.


Because It was tested that way. So it has a listing, best I can say. A wire nut may very well be suitable for use, but without the listing, you'll never really know.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

No, I consider Stickboy a youngster, due to he questions too much about stuff that is just common sense. As for dealing with Copper Coated Aluminum, as stated before, as long as you do the work properly and follow the rules, you will have no problem. It is better to think out of the box, then delve on the little stuff.

The reason that Copper Coated Aluminum is used, is because it is cheaper, but it is still as safe as Copper or Aluminum, as long as you follow the rules. That means, if the wiring in your home is in good working order, and everything checks out then just do a little PM (Preventative maintenance) on it. To rip it all out takes time, so if you do want to bring 40y/o wiring up to more modern codes, you will have to think it out and figure how much it will cost to replace all of those runs with Copper wiring.


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## k_buz (Mar 22, 2012)

Wirenuts are a completely different animal than screw terminals on a device. The backside of the screw that come in contact with the wire are smooth. The inside of a wirenut are a spring. The metal that makes up the spring isn't round, its triangular to grab the wire. Aluminum and copper-clad aluminum is generally softer than copper so the spring may dig into the aluminum more and thus create a larger possibility of failure.

Another thing to take into account is the manufacturer's instructions for wirenuts (yes, there are instructions). If they say a wirenut is only intended for CU/CU connections, then you cannot violate that.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

I get where you are coming from. But before I documented the UL listing stating it was safe to use copper clad on a receptacle that doesn't have a CO/ALR identification which only leaves devices marked CU only... Why do these receptacles listed as CU only not state CU/CCA or CU/CU-clad or something to that affect?


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## andrew79 (Mar 25, 2010)

i copied and pasted this from the manual on a gfci
• To prevent severe shock or
electrocution always turn the power
OFF at the service panel before
working with wiring.
•* Use this GFCI with copper or copperclad wire. Do not use it with aluminum
wire.*
• Do not install this GFCI receptacle on
a circuit that powers life support
equipment because if the GFCI trips it
will shut down the equipment.
• For installation in wet locations,
protect the GFCI receptacle with a
weatherproof cover that will keep both
the receptacle and any plugs dry.
• Must be installed in accordance with
national and local electrical codes.


reference is here http://www.hipspro.com/pubs/How-to-install-GFCI.pdf

for the record i'm probably the young one, i've only been licensed for 6 years and i've only had my masters for 2 years.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

I want to thank everyone that has posted.. Before I joined this forum yesterday there really was little information regarding the topic..I just googled copper clad aluminum. Guess what??? We are all famous now ! We are on a ground breaking revolutionary tip of the iceberg solution!! ... Almost there..


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