# Co. installing my impact windows measured all wrong. Now they want to "rig" them in.



## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

*Co. installing my impact windows measured all wrong. Now they want to "rig" them in.*

I signed a contract for impact windows and french doors for my home in Davie. The company is StormWise Shutters. I have been experiencing serious problems with this company. They came to install the windows and noticed that the windows were too short height wise and length wise. The installers realized this after putting up the 1st window. Because they already took down the existing window, they had to "jerry rig" the window into place with wood filler all around the perimeter of the window. They told me they would have to re manufacture all windows. 2-3 days later I got a call from the owner of the company that has consulted with his architecural dept. The owner told me it may be possible to do something with the aluminum frame....to add on to it, or something to that effect that will make the windows fit. I of course was very alarmed to hear this..seems as if though they are trying to get the easy way out and "rig" the windows in lieu of manufacturing new ones. I told him that I was very concerned about them passing inspection....it just didn't sound right. Has anyone here had the experience about making smaller windows that were measure incorrectly being able to fit into openings and pass inspection as well ? Is the owner feeding me a lot of hype or is it possible ? Your insight is greatly appreciated.

ps...the contract was sigend Aug. 6th and clearly states installation will take place 4-6 weeks after permit was pulled. The permit was pulled on Aug. 19th. Aren't they technically in violation of the contract ? Don't I have the right to ask for my 30% deposit back and find another company instead ?


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

They measured the windows?
If so I'd insist the windows installed are the correct size
If your contract states 4-6 weeks after permit for installation that expires on the 30th by my count


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

We can help you to fill them in as this is a* DIY site*. You will need to contact a lawyer for other answers.
Be safe, Gary


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Do you have a picture of the window installed ?

How short is too short ?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

If you are in Davie, you have the same tough codes we have in the Tampa Bay Area concerning excess space between structure and window frames. This sounds like, technically, they can get away with it. But in actuallity, they will be creating much of the same situation the codes were stiffened up to address.

See how your local building department feels about it.


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

You paid for windows of the correct size - that is what should be provided. A workaround would not be satisfactory, IMHO.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Vsheetz..I agree with you 100%. Here are some pics...the first 2 pics are of the sides of the windows and the second two pics are the top and bottom of the window. You can clearly see the wood they stuck into there for the time being. They could not put back the old window because it broke when they took it out. The owner of the company is going to call me tomorrow...it should be interesting to hear what he is going to say. First it was I was going to get new windows (another 3 week delay) and now it's "we can maybe fix them" yeah right. Like I said...stay tuned....can't wait to hear what he has to say. I am probably going to end up asking him for my 30% deposit back and if he says NO...then it's court time. I still can't believe how incompetent some of these companies are....it amazes me. By the way, the companies name is StormWise shutters or Storm Wise shutters with offices in Miami, Ft.Myers and port St.Lucie I believe.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

If you accept the wrong windows you should also insist on a major discount.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

On the 1st pic that seems like a 2" gap ?
That would be unacceptable to me

Call the building Inspector too
If they say no go that is added support on your side
If you can say the building Inspector will not approve the installation then it's not just you refusing the windows
Not that you do not have a right to refuse them


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Just got off the phone with the owner. What a prick to say the least. As soon as I confronted him with the fact that this will NOT pass code, he says I had a condescending attitude and am very confrontational. Can you believe that ? He told me that he hasn't meet with the architecture yet and that he would call me in about an hour. I told him I don't want my windows RIGGED into place...and that there are 2 options. Option # 1.... remanufacture new windows or # 2......give me my deposit back and I will take my business elsewhere. When I mentioned about taking him to court if he doesn't give me my deposit back, he got angry and told me that I am confrontational again...then promptly said he will call me in 1 hour and HUNG UP. Yes....hung up. Can you believe that ?


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## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Hopefully this will get resolved without legal action but I would stand firm. If they delivered the wrong size windows they are not fulfilling their end of the contract. Obviously he doesn't want to have to eat the mistake of the person who measured. You might check with your State Attorney General to see if there are other complaints or is any sort of class action already. This may or may not help your cause. You mentioned an architect? Why isn't he or she handling this for you? I hope the windows were not made to his/her drawings and the dimensions were off or someone framed the window openings wrong.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

sdsester said:


> Hopefully this will get resolved without legal action but I would stand firm. If they delivered the wrong size windows they are not fulfilling their end of the contract. Obviously he doesn't want to have to eat the mistake of the person who measured. You might check with your State Attorney General to see if there are other complaints or is any sort of class action already. This may or may not help your cause. You mentioned an architect? Why isn't he or she handling this for you? I hope the windows were not made to his/her drawings and the dimensions were off or someone framed the window openings wrong.



The architect I am referring to is THEIR architecural department.....not my personal architect. I am only replacing my old 22 year old windows.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

None of the gaps are actually more than 1 inch....they are more like 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. I spoke to the owner again who assured me that they can install it correctly and that it will still pass inspection. I said OK....BUT...under the condition that final payment is made only after final inspection is PASSED. He seems 100% confident that it will pass.


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

You are under TAS 201, 202, and 203 or the "Dade codes" in Davie. 

There is pretty much no "wiggle room" under these codes. The window manufacturer as well as the installer has to build and install the windows EXACTLY as specified. 

Under no circumstances would I agree to allow them to "fix" the problem on site.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

oberon said:


> You are under TAS 201, 202, and 203 or the "Dade codes" in Davie.
> 
> There is pretty much no "wiggle room" under these codes. The window manufacturer as well as the installer has to build and install the windows EXACTLY as specified.
> 
> Under no circumstances would I agree to allow them to "fix" the problem on site.


So if there is a 3/4 inch gap on all sides, then it would not pass code ??


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Why are you willing to accept improperly sized windows? A steep discount at the very least is warranted. However, I personally would never accept a screw up like this. Somebody screwed up and they want you to eat it.

Bringing up the "taking you to court" thing could be taken as a bit confrontational. But that is water under the bridge.

I would also take Scuba Dave's advice and call your building inspector too.

Hope it works out for you and please report back what eventually happens.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

heydade said:


> So if there is a 3/4 inch gap on all sides, then it would not pass code ??


You need to contact your building Inspector & ask them
They are the ones that will be inspecting this


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

The reason why I agreed to this is because they told me that some gaps are normal. I contacted the building department and spoke to a senior permite inspector and he said it's normal sometimes for the windows to be smaller than the opening and all they have to do is just to place 2x buck around the CBS opening to facilitate the window going in right. The important part is fastening the 2x buck to the CBS using the approved fasteners that have to meet tough codes down here. Buck is used all the time to fill in gaps, so I don't see the big deal anymore. Yes, I was very hesitant in the beginning, but now that I educated myself about windows and talked to the building department, I feel more comfortable proceeding. Does this make sense ?


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## majakdragon (Sep 16, 2006)

From your original post, you said the owner was modifying the aluminum around the actual windows, not the opening. Does this compute to modifying the 2x buck? I doubt aluminum will support the same as a 2x. Most contracts have the phrase "work to be done in a professional and journeyman type manner. Mismeasuring the windows does not meet this criteria in my mind.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Sorry. I am completely green when it comes to window installation. NO, he is not going to "modify" the aluminum, only put 2x buck around the opening to "frame it" That's all.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Building Inspector says OK
Only 1/2-3/4" gap is much better then the 2" I thought
In some cases people install another 2x4 on one side or bottom to install a smaller window
Key is as you said making sure that the 2x filler is installed correctly to the existing studs
This then makes a sturdy installation

All seems better & makes sense
I still think they possibly owe you a discount (not steep) for the delay & issue
But if you are happy & passes inspection that is the main thing


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Scuba Dave...yeah, the pictures look worse than it actually is. On another note, I noticed the house you are re-doing. That's a lot of work ! Is that balloon frame construction ? Do the studs run the entire height of the structure ?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

heydade said:


> The reason why I agreed to this is because they told me that some gaps are normal. I contacted the building department and spoke to a senior permite inspector and he said it's normal sometimes for the windows to be smaller than the opening and all they have to do is just to place 2x buck around the CBS opening to facilitate the window going in right. The important part is fastening the 2x buck to the CBS using the approved fasteners that have to meet tough codes down here. Buck is used all the time to fill in gaps, so I don't see the big deal anymore. Yes, I was very hesitant in the beginning, but now that I educated myself about windows and talked to the building department, I feel more comfortable proceeding. Does this make sense ?


Our local building department can get funky about anything more than 1/4" per side after bucks are installed.

We have to use those colored plastic "horseshoe" shims so they can easily tell the gap...

Blue: 1/16"
Red: 1/8"
Black: 1/4"


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

heydade said:


> Scuba Dave...yeah, the pictures look worse than it actually is. On another note, I noticed the house you are re-doing. That's a lot of work ! Is that balloon frame construction ? Do the studs run the entire height of the structure ?


No, standard framing - walls go up, then floor on top of walls
Then next wall on top of the floor.....repeated as needed


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

IMO--I'm beginning to think that your contractor's "architect/architectural consultant" is himself. I would not call you confrontational at all, it's your house, your money, and you should have this job done correctly. In addtition to talking to the local permit/building inspection department, have you asked them to come look at this situation? There just might be a mis-understanding as to what the problem really is without seeing it. Good Luck, David


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Hey everyone...I am listening and paying attention to all your comments. I can't sleep right now because my mind is racing. My gut feeling is what all of you are telling me...that I should NOT accept these improperly sized windows. It's funny, because 2 days ago when the owner of the company called me, I was very firm with wanting my deposit back and he never really said NO to me. All he said was that it could be fixed and look perfect in the end AND pass inspection. For whatever reason, he convinced me and I had a change of heart.

It's funny what just 48 hours does to your thinking. Now I think I should just follow my gut feeling and demand my 2,800 dollar deposit back. My question though is this....yes, the windows are not the correct size. As mentioned before, the gaps around the window are anywhere from 1/2 inch all the way to almost nearly 1 inch....all the way around the entire frame of the window. You can see that in the pictures. Let's say he doesn't agree to give me back my deposit and we end up in court, is this variance enough for me to win in court ? I would think it would, but I want to make sure. 

Dealing with this guy is like a thorn in my butt. I just want my deposit back. But what do I say now ? I already verbally agreed to go ahead with the installation. He is supposed to call me Thursday (tomorrow) to let me know if the intallers can make it on Friday. What do I say ? How do I handle this ?

Thanks everyone for your advice...there is a LOT of support on this forum and I really appreciate it.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

You will have these windows for a long time
Decide what you really want & go forward with that decision
If you want the windows originally promised then stick to that

1/2" total is not much
1/2" on each side is 
1" IMO is too much for windows that were measured & supposed to fit existing opening


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

by the way...the owner of the company is a certified general contractor licensed in Florida per records I just pulled up.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Heydade, 

Is getting your deposit back the only alternative you'd accept? I guess I am asking if you would be willing to work with this company to have them make the proper sized windows? Or did they rule that out completely.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

heydade said:


> So if there is a 3/4 inch gap on all sides, then it would not pass code ??


Have you actually spoken with an inspector on the phone about this?

That should provide you with exact answers to many of these questions. 

You won't be guessing, and Camilo will know you have the straight facts.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Willie T said:


> Have you actually spoken with an inspector on the phone about this?
> 
> That should provide you with exact answers to many of these questions.
> 
> You won't be guessing, and Camilo will know you have the straight facts.


Yes, I spoke to the inspector and he said that as long as they can securely put in the window, it will pass inspection. Its going to take more work since now they have to add stucco and put some thicker 2x buck....but it is definitely doable. I am just going to have them install it. I am tired of worrying. If it passes the inspection and looks good.....I will be happy.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Well, I gave them a 2nd chance. Installers were supposed to show up today at 11:30am based on a call I got this morning telling me they are on their way....they called at 10am and told me they would be there in 1 1/2 hours. 12 noon came I called the owner telling him I had to go to work and where are the installers...they are 1/2 hour late. I told him to find out and call me ASAP. Do you think he called me back ? NO. 1pm came and they still didn't show up. I had to leave to work. I called the owner, he didn't answer. Left him a message advising him that I want my deposit back since the window measurements are off and work was not completed in 4-6 week agreed to time in the contract and the fact that the installer never showed up. Im FURIOUS. I cannot recommend StormWise Storm Wise shutters based out of Opa Locka, Miami at all.


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

The proverbial straw that broke the horses back.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Well, just an update on Storm Wise shutters regarding my impact windows. I demanded my 2,700 deposit back. Filed a complaint with the BBB. Waiting to hear from them. If they do not reimburse me, I will file a complaint against their business license and also take legal action. Why oh why !


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

If you made the down payment with your a credit card call the credit card company. Chances are they will get your deposit back pretty quickly. I always try to use a credit card for down payments.

Rege


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

I talked with the owner again yesterday and he swayed me again into having the windows installed. He says I don't have to give him another dime until after the work is done to my liking and it passes final inspection. I STILL DON'T KNOW. I told him I want my deposit back and he said that if I read the back of my contract, it will be pretty hard to do so. I wonder if he is trying to call my bluff. If this goes to small claims court, I'm not sure if I would win. The last thing I want is NO windows and me having to cough up 7,000 dollars. But then again, I have everyone telling me I am in my right and that the windows are not acceptable. But what is ? How much of a gap is required for a court of law to be on my side and award me the deposit back. I'm so confused right now. Really wonder if I should just be FIRM and tell him NO means no and agressively pursue getting my deposit back or just have him install by "building" the windows up a little with 2 inch pressure treated buck which is not uncommon. But for impact windows ? CONFUSED as heck


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Heydade,

I had a few new windows installed yesterday so I can speak to your concerns. Yes, it would be nice if the windows were a little tighter fit in the openings.

My new windows had about a 1/2 an inch of space all the way around. It was more than I would have liked, but on the other hand, that 1/2 inch allowed the installers to ensure a proper seal and proper insulation around the windows. So in hindsight having that teeny bit extra space is a good thing.

Your windows seem to have a bit more space than that and the only downside I see is the slight loss of window area. As long as they can install them and get the interior and exterior to look good, I would be fine with that.

I love my new windows and I am looking forward to a properly sealed and insulated unit when the winter hits here in Canada.

Only downside for me is I lost a hammer yesterday. I think it must have ended up in their tool kit. And the damn thing cost me $3.99.

I hope things turn out for you.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I would accept any window 1/2" to 3/4"
Anything over that would be a redo IMO

$3.99 for a hammer ? My last one was over $20 - steel handle is all I buy now


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## Lucas718 (Nov 5, 2008)

You filed a complaint with the BBB and you're still going to let this company install your windows???

It sounds like you want your money back but you don't want to deal with the hassle of fighting them over it, so you keep letting him talk you into having the windows installed. Many folks on here have said they wouldn't accept this, but the bottom line is you're the one that has to live with your decision.


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## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

heydade, You need to stand firm but it sounds like you blinked first. 
How are they going to trim the windows? 
Outside it's simple just extend the aluminum, inside I don't think it will look good.

If I were the company installing the windows, I'd eat them and apologize for the delay as the reorder goes in.

Once the windows are installed, you will owe them all the money with little recourse.


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## jimmyfloyd (Sep 29, 2008)

Since you have one window installed, why not ask the inspector to stop out and take a look at it first before continuing? While they are there, you can ask them your other questions, and explain the situation to them as well. This should get you the proper answers you need and they'll be able to look at it and tell you if it is acceptable. If it is not, then you can tell the window company you want new ones ordered. If it is acceptable, then you have to decide still if you want them to go through with it. For me, this would be hard since they already bailed on you without explanation.

While everyone here offers good advice, the best advice would come from either and inspector or lawyer in your area familiar with the building code and/or laws concerning contracts.


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

I have tried calling the bulding dept. They told me I need to talk to the Chief Sructural engineer who will not pick up the phone or call me back after I leave messages. That is another problem I am dealing with.

I did contact the manufacturer of the window to ask him what the tolerances should be for the window install and this was their response : 

_First of all, thank you for choosing our product.

As per the NOA, the windows can go to different opening structures (concrete, wood, steel or aluminum) that are describe in the NOA as far they are structural and can withstand the pressures. 1 by or 2 x wood bucks are permitted.

Between the window and any of this structures, there should be more than 1/4 “ space that have to be filled with a plastic shim wherever there is a anchoring screw. If the space between the window and the structure is greater than this, a special engineering must be made for the specific field conditions.

The inspector must check that everything is supported by the NOA or the special engineering if that is the case.

If you have any further questions please let me know_

I attached the pictures you all see in this thread to the email asking him about the tolerances. So I am still a little confused...does this mean that there should be no more than 1/4 gap BEFORE or AFTER the wood buck is in place ? Also, what do they mean by "special engineering" Thanks..


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Asked the same questions to the window manufacturer and this is what I got :

Unfortunately those pictures don’t tell us much.

If the wood bucks are properly attached to the structure of the house, and if between the wood buck and the window the gap is less than ¼”, there shouldn’t be any problem.

By special engineering I meant that after putting everything properly to receive the windows, still a gap greater than ¼”, an engineer can calculate a different anchoring arrangement for the windows and that should be accepted by the inspector. This calculations must be signed and sealed by the engineer.

Nelson, anyway the inspector should check everything so the installation and the windows are up to the Florida Building Code, if he fails the inspection then becomes an issue.

If you wish I can talk to your vendor to find out what are they doing.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

Having installed windows in Fla for many years I have run into some very challenging installations. Most times, things are pretty straight forward and present no problems, but then you come across a house where the difference between inside and outside measurements are quite considerable, requiring that bucks _must_ be used for the window to even be able to operate after install. While it is entirely possible that the windows were measured wrong or manufactured incorrectly, it is also possible that they were ordered slightly smaller to accomodate the openings. For example, some of the concrete block bungalows that were thrown up here in the 40s and 50s as vacation homes often have issues that have to be taken into consideration when measuring for replacement windows as they have undergone many changes over the years (like stucco added to the exterior/furring out interior walls etc). As stated by the inspector and manufacturer, it is not uncommon to frame out the rough opening to allow for proper installation, as long as the bucks are properly anchored, especially since yours are impact windows and require more fasteners than usual to meet the new codes. 
I would give your contractor the chance to fullfil his contract and then if you are not happy with the finished installation you may have cause for action. I would assume that they plan to trim the inside of the window with a vinyl trim (something like RWD's Extender trim) to give the window a proper finished look? Have you asked him about the inside trim? You wrote that they are going to stucco the outside. 
If you still have concerns, I would do as suggested and try to get an inspector out there to approve the window already installed. Since they did pull a permit, an inspector does eventually need to come out and approve the install. 
Good luck, and keep us updated!


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

wrangler, they are going to STUCCO the inside of the window and CAULK the outside. They heard about the RWD extender trim, but don't have it. Is this acceptable what they want to do ?

They are here right now ready to install, hopefully someone or you can chime in ASAP for me. Funny too...they came with PINE for the wood bucking. I told them they needed pressure treated wood and they are off to home depot to go get some. Why didn't they show up with pressure treated in the first place ?


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## heydade (Aug 7, 2009)

Well, here are the final results for some of the windows. They put in 3 today. They are scheduled to come back tomorrow morning and finish the rest (8 total windows and 1 french door) They left it unfinished like that because the inspector needs to come and see the fasteners before they caulk and stucco the rest. Tell me what you guys think honestly. Would it still be OK to call the owner and tell him that the work is not coming out to be what I expected and that I want my deposit back ? Even if they already put 3 windows in ?


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