# Satin Impervo says "do not thin" but it's too thick, won't level. Why "do not thin"?



## halliwellc (Sep 13, 2012)

*Satin Impervo says "do not thin" but it's too thick, won't level. Why "do not thin"?*

Satin Impervo says "do not thin" but it's too thick, won't level. Why "do not thin"? What are the consequences of thinning it a little?

Benjamin Moore Satin Impervo Alkyd (Oil), thinned with traditional paint thinner.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Go ahead and thin it a little, no harm done, I do it all the time.


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## halliwellc (Sep 13, 2012)

yep. It was dragging. Seems OK now.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

It says "do not thin" so it can be sold in compliance with EPA regulations. Paint has to be sold AND used in accordance with those regs. If you add thinner to it you are raising the VOC level to the point were it is no longer in compliance. I COULD tell you it is OK to go ahead and thin it but then I would actually be breaking the law, so I won't.


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## blackjack (Oct 21, 2015)

If you thin it the epa might show up and red tag your doors.  but your doors would look great! Until they yellow anyway...(.read the bucket about the yellowing comment)


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

halliwellc said:


> Satin Impervo says "do not thin" but it's too thick, won't level. Why "do not thin"? What are the consequences of thinning it a little?
> 
> Benjamin Moore Satin Impervo Alkyd (Oil), thinned with traditional paint thinner.


Hey Hallliwellc....

As has already been mentioned a couple of times, the most likely reason for saying "Do Not Thin" has to do with VOC compliancy - if a product is at the max VOC level, as it stands on the shelf, any amount of added VOC thinners will shoot the product out of compliancy, and no manufacturer would recommend doing that - as they would be in violation of VOC regs...

...and, as others have already mentioned, in most cases thinning the product with a little paint thinner will probably work fine, even without the manufacturer's blessing. 

...but it should be noted that that may not be the only reason an end-user is advised to "Do Not Thin" - In some product formulations, blends of solvents are being used that won't necessarily play well with other, more common types of solvents (specifically with more aliphatic, "oily" solvents such as mineral spirits)... Several manufacturers are now using complex blends of both aromatic and exempt solvents to create more acceptable dry and flow properties of an oil product, and still remain within VOC allowances. 

Now, having already indicated that reducing with common solvents might cause the product to behave strangely with some of these blends may only be partially true. There seems to be a higher probability of a reaction when atmospheric extremes come into play, such as too cool of temps, too high of temps, and too high of humidity. The reaction we have seen is both alligatoring (mud cracking), and film wrinkling (affected solvent evaporation & proper cure)...

After alerting you of this possible, dire and disastrous, total and complete paint failure, I s'pose I should probably point out that the likelihood of a such a reaction is pretty low...but that's not to say a reaction wouldn't, or couldn't, occur. 

The only - sole - reason I mention this is to make you aware of the possibility of a reaction, albeit a low risk, a risk nonetheless. My advice is to check with the manufacturer regarding the "Do Not Thin" stipulation - word your questions to the tech geeks so they won't be advising you to thin the product illegally (they won't/can't do that)...ask in such a way that their answer will tell you whether mineral spirits will harm the product, or could the addition of paint thinner have an adverse affect on the paint film? Unfortunately, these are the games we must play in the ever-changing VOC world.

(P.S. - I know this may be confusing as the dickens...it's confusing for paint manufacturers as well - these changing, and challenging, formulations are the result of a seemingly endless attempt to satisfy the market's demand for a durable and affordable oil based product).


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

ric knows paint said:


> Hey Hallliwellc....
> 
> As has already been mentioned a couple of times, the most likely reason for saying "Do Not Thin" has to do with VOC compliancy - if a product is at the max VOC level, as it stands on the shelf, any amount of added VOC thinners will shoot the product out of compliancy, and no manufacturer would recommend doing that - as they would be in violation of VOC regs...
> 
> ...


This is quite true for "new" products, but Satin Impervo is still the same old Satin Impervo that has been around for ages. BM hasn't done anything to the formulation and if they did it would be to make the product both voc compliant AND Gennex compatible, and it is actually neither. BM pretty much has put all their efforts into Advance and given up on advancing pure alkyd technology. It pretty safe using mineral spirits or "paint thinner" with it.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

ric knows paint said:


> In some product formulations, blends of solvents are being used that won't necessarily play well with other, more common types of solvents (specifically with more aliphatic, "oily" solvents such as mineral spirits)... Several manufacturers are now using complex blends of both aromatic and exempt solvents to create more acceptable dry and flow properties of an oil product, and still remain within VOC allowances.


To be perfectly honest, I would expect paint companies to give that as a reason not to thin their alkyd paints. It seems to me that every hydrocarbon solvent I know of is miscible with every other hydrocarbon solvent. I can mix mineral spirits with toluene with acetone with xylene with lacquer thinner with naptha with MEK and the list goes on. I'm skeptical that any hydrocarbon thinner they use in their paint isn't compatible with mineral spirits.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> To be perfectly honest, I would expect paint companies to give that as a reason not to thin their alkyd paints. It seems to me that every hydrocarbon solvent I know of is miscible with every other hydrocarbon solvent. I can mix mineral spirits with toluene with acetone with xylene with lacquer thinner with naptha with MEK and the list goes on. I'm skeptical that any hydrocarbon thinner they use in their paint isn't compatible with mineral spirits.


You "would "expect" paint companies to give that as a reason not to thin alkyd paints"? Why? ...and what the hell does that mean? So mineral spirits are miscible with every other hydrocarbon solvent - that doesn't mean that every hydrocarbon solvent is compatible with all resins...agreed? If so, most lacquer thinners contain toluene, so therefore mineral spirits can be an alternative to thin NC lacquer with, right? ...and remember, not every solvent used in paint is a petro-derivative. How 'bout this...the diluent of many alkyds is strictly aliphatic, but since they're all miscible, you believe you could then thin this alkyd product with toluene? ...without disastrous consequence?...and vice-versa - a resin suspended in aromatics thinned with an aliphatic could result in some wicked coagulation of the resin. But apparently there's no need to explain this to the OP, or others, since all hydrocarbon solvents are miscible with mineral spirits... Geezus, What was I thinking?


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

ric knows paint said:


> You "would "expect" paint companies to give that as a reason not to thin alkyd paints"? Why? ...and what the hell does that mean? So mineral spirits are miscible with every other hydrocarbon solvent - that doesn't mean that every hydrocarbon solvent is compatible with all resins...agreed? If so, most lacquer thinners contain toluene, so therefore mineral spirits can be an alternative to thin NC lacquer with, right? ...and remember, not every solvent used in paint is a petro-derivative. How 'bout this...the diluent of many alkyds is strictly aliphatic, but since they're all miscible, you believe you could then thin this alkyd product with toluene? ...without disastrous consequence?...and vice-versa - a resin suspended in aromatics thinned with an aliphatic could result in some wicked coagulation of the resin. But apparently there's no need to explain this to the OP, or others, since all hydrocarbon solvents are miscible with mineral spirits... Geezus, What was I thinking?


1. If paint companies are telling people "Do Not Thin" their alkyd products, they need to come up with a reason. I'm convinced that incompatibility between their solvents and mineral spirits is as good a lie as any.

2. No, in general, lacquer thinner is mostly toluene.

All I'm saying is that if the paint companies are saying not to thin their alkyd products because of incompatibilities between their solvents and mineral spirits, I'd put that explanation in the same bag as "Do Not Thin".


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> 1. If paint companies are telling people "Do Not Thin" their alkyd products, they need to come up with a reason. I'm convinced that incompatibility between their solvents and mineral spirits is as good a lie as any.
> 
> 2. No, in general, lacquer thinner is mostly toluene.
> 
> All I'm saying is that if the paint companies are saying not to thin their alkyd products because of incompatibilities between their solvents and mineral spirits, I'd put that explanation in the same bag as "Do Not Thin".




Why not being smart but "DO NOT THIN" seems to say it all.


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## fortunerestore (Mar 6, 2014)

Here it is important to know why that “do not thin" is stated along. It is done so that it can be sold in compliance with EPA regulations. The paint needs to be sold and used in accordance with several regulations. And in case you add the thinner, you are doing nothing else that raising the VOC level of the paint to the point, where it will be no longer in compliance. Hence, if you step ahead with it, you breaking the law, so it is not recommended.


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