# Hot white wire joined to neutral wires!



## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

You most likely have a load imposed on that neutral. Untwisting them while the circuit is energized will make all of `em "hot" except for the one feeding from the main panel.

IF you happen to be dealing with a multi-wire circuit, untwisting the neutrals can cause catastrophic damage downstream to certain loads on one of the circuits.:furious:

Switch off the main power, then hook `em back up the way they were ...


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## dave53 (Jul 12, 2010)

There is no way that a hot wire could have been twisted together with neutrals. There would be a direct short and a blown breaker.

There are cases where a white wire can be hot, but it really should have some black tape on it to identify it as hot. An example is a switch leg, to a light fixture, where the hot wire is in the box supporting the light fixture. A standard 3-strand wire (white, black, ground) is used to send the hot wire down to the the switch. When I do it, I connect the white wire to the hot (black) in the fixture box, sending the hot side down to the switch with a white wire (which should have black tape near the end). The wire coming back up from the switch is black, so the fixture is connected to a black hot wire and a white neutral.

Two circuits in the same box is a no-no, unless it's a case of using a shared neutral. In that case, the breakers are linked together or a 2-pole is used, so both must be shut off at the same time. You can supply two circuits with a 12-3 or 14-3 wire, using only one neutral, as long as both the black and red wires are hooked to different phases. If that's not done, then the neutral would carry the amperage from both circuits and fry.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

dogdutyascetic said:


> one that was hot.


Hot as in it can light an incand. bulb to full brightness or 
hot as in Phantom Voltage or 
hot as in, in series with a load and 120v?


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanx for the reply. My voltage tester was definitely giving me the lights on going from one of the neutrals to the grounded box. The other whites were not hot. I'm not sure if it was 120 because I didn't test it with a multimeter. I understand how to use a white wire when running power from the fixture to the switch, but that's not what's happening here. I'm wondering why this didn't trip the breaker then. Very puzzling. Also, I wasn't aware that switches could not be on different circuits in the same switch box. I guess this is a good reason to pigtail into the power of the working switch then and just marret the old hot and tape it up inside the box.



dave53 said:


> There is no way that a hot wire could have been twisted together with neutrals. There would be a direct short and a blown breaker.
> 
> There are cases where a white wire can be hot, but it really should have some black tape on it to identify it as hot. An example is a switch leg, to a light fixture, where the hot wire is in the box supporting the light fixture. A standard 3-strand wire (white, black, ground) is used to send the hot wire down to the the switch. When I do it, I connect the white wire to the hot (black) in the fixture box, sending the hot side down to the switch with a white wire (which should have black tape near the end). The wire coming back up from the switch is black, so the fixture is connected to a black hot wire and a white neutral.
> 
> Two circuits in the same box is a no-no, unless it's a case of using a shared neutral. In that case, the breakers are linked together or a 2-pole is used, so both must be shut off at the same time. You can supply two circuits with a 12-3 or 14-3 wire, using only one neutral, as long as both the black and red wires are hooked to different phases. If that's not done, then the neutral would carry the amperage from both circuits and fry.


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Why would there be a load imposed on the neutral exactly? I don't understand what you mean by this. Do you mean that the neutral is being juiced by a short circuit? When I untwist them and energize the circuit only one of the whites is hot not all but one. So, I'm not sure what you mean here. Please explain. I'd like to just twist them together the way I found them, but what I found was a mess. I found a junction box with hots from two different circuits joined and a switch which I could shut off with one breaker but is still hot! Oh yeah! Disconnecting these junction box wires is not related to the switch. So there's likely some buried boxes or whatever that's making both wires live at the same time. Thanx



kbsparky said:


> You most likely have a load imposed on that neutral. Untwisting them while the circuit is energized will make all of `em "hot" except for the one feeding from the main panel.
> 
> IF you happen to be dealing with a multi-wire circuit, untwisting the neutrals can cause catastrophic damage downstream to certain loads on one of the circuits.:furious:
> 
> Switch off the main power, then hook `em back up the way they were ...


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Excellent questions. I didn't put a multimeter on it so I'm not sure. How would I test for phantom voltage? 



Yoyizit said:


> Hot as in it can light an incand. bulb to full brightness or
> hot as in Phantom Voltage or
> hot as in, in series with a load and 120v?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

dogdutyascetic said:


> Excellent questions. I didn't put a multimeter on it so I'm not sure. How would I test for phantom voltage?


http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...circuit-considered-mwbc-multiwire-diagram.jpg

An incand. lamp will drop a Phantom Voltage to almost zero.

Be careful.


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Interesting. Are you saying that this circuit may have branched but neutral wires may have been excluded? Could this cause a neutral to show as hot when putting a voltage tester on it? 



Yoyizit said:


> http://www.diychatroom.com/attachme...circuit-considered-mwbc-multiwire-diagram.jpg
> 
> An incand. lamp will drop a Phantom Voltage to almost zero.
> 
> Be careful.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

This is NOT a case of a switch loop.

A load on the neutral means you disconnected the neutral but left the hot connected. Voltage is still flowing on the hot wire, through the load, and into your now disconnected neutral. The load will not be active since the circuit is no longer completed.

Sorry, but one of the dumbest things you can do is disconnect a neutral with the power on and a load on the circuit, especially if it is a multi-wire circuit as KB stated.


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## dave53 (Jul 12, 2010)

Since we have a licensed electrical contractor commenting, please explain when it's appropriate to use a black wire, twisted together with several white neutrals. I can't think of an appropriate situation.


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Agreed it's not a switch loop. The rest of what you say is very interesting. I understand you as saying that a neutral has been disconnected downstream while the load is still connected. I personally can't see how there would be any current in a disconnected neutral wire even if its load wire were still connected. Wouldn't you just have a hot load wire and no current on the neutral? Please explain. I agree that it would be a pretty dumb thing to do. This is only one of many dumb things I've found in an old house, probably one of the less dumb ones actually. 



Speedy Petey said:


> This is NOT a case of a switch loop.
> 
> A load on the neutral means you disconnected the neutral but left the hot connected. Voltage is still flowing on the hot wire, through the load, and into your now disconnected neutral. The load will not be active since the circuit is no longer completed.
> 
> Sorry, but one of the dumbest things you can do is disconnect a neutral with the power on and a load on the circuit, especially if it is a multi-wire circuit as KB stated.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

It is acceptable to have more than one circuit entering a box but here you keep the neutrals for each circuit separate.

There must be exactly one path back to the panel for each neutral (and one path for each hot). And the neutral must follow the path of the corresponding hot. (Might not be true of really old knob and tube house wiring)

Do not undo neutrals unless the power is off. Now that you have it taken apart, you really should figure out how many circuits are entering the box, and separating out the feed and continuing neutrals for one circuit and marretting (wire nutting) them back together, separating out the feed and continuing neutrals for another circuit if any, etc. Also separating out the feed and continuing hots for each circuit if more than one. If there was only one bundle of colored wires coming in and when taken apart and the power turned on for a moment only one of the ends was hot, then you you have just one circuit feeding the box.

If you left the power on in an ordinary* circuit, and there was a light (or appliance) still switched on, and you undid the neutral, you will see a spark, the light will go out, and the neutral coming back from the light will show hot when you applied volt meter probes to it and to ground (or to the neutral wire continuing on back to the panel). Once the connection is broken (any circuit is broken), the current drops to zero* (amps) but the voltage measured across the break is the full 120* or so.

If you turned off the light switch, you will no longer measure the loose neutral wire as hot (except for possible phantom voltage).

When wiring up a switch, always use a colored wire (not green) from the switch to the black wire or gold screw (hot side) of the light fixture. In a typical switch loop setup, the white wire in a pre-made cable going down to the switch will be the raw (unswitched) power line and connected to the (black) wire supplying the power up at the light fixture box.

Never wire up a real neutral to a switch although you may find this in really old house wiring.

* Different things may happen in combination 120/240 volt circuits aka multiwire branch circuits where the neutral is disconnected. See other descriptions preceding.


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

A final question. This is looking like something a licensed electrician should be dealing with, which I am not. In the mean time what's the safest thing other than turning the breaker off on that circuit. I assume disconnecting the hot white from the other whites and marretting and taping it should do as a very short term stop gap until this can be dealt with properly, like a week or so. Does that seem reasonable?


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

If everything was working properly before you made the change, why are you trying to disassemble the circuit? It still does not sound like you understand what has been explained to you.



kbsparky said:


> Switch off the main power, then hook `em back up the way they were ...


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## dogdutyascetic (Jul 5, 2010)

Ok, well I don't think you put together a circuit again that is showing a hot white joined to other neutrals without sorting it out. Also, this was only one problem on this circuit. The switch was also connected to a hot wire that I traced back to a junction box in which hots from two difference circuits were joined, which explains why one breaker killed the light, but power was still going to the switch from a separate circuit! And the junction box was also tied to some old K&T that was looping back toward the panel and was left with a couple of old live knob and tube wires chopped off loose in the ceiling with the wires just taped! So, just marretting everything back together and closing up the junction box and switch because it was working before seems to be pretty unethical. I've found some serious problems here and I want to know whether in the mean time putting a wire nut on the end of the hot white and separating it from the other whites is the safest way to reduce fire risk. I've already disconnected everything else from the problematic junction box; so all I want to know about is whether, given that it is potentially unsafe to have a hot white joined to the other whites I should isolate that wire and put a wire nut and tape on it until this can be solved. Thanx for your input. 



Jim Port said:


> If everything was working properly before you made the change, why are you trying to disassemble the circuit? It still does not sound like you understand what has been explained to you.


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## BusterT (Oct 3, 2012)

*Was the issue resolved? Same issue here.*

I too have a very similar problem. Was curious if you solved your issue?

I have two circuits running to a double switch box. One circuit controls a ceiling light and it works fine. 

The other side of the box has 3 sets of wires in it - each set has a black, a white and a ground. The grounds are all connected in a wire nut and attached to the metal electrical box.

Originally two sets of white/black wires ran to a double switch. It had the tab removed (so it could split into 2 circuits itself?). One set of white/black wires went to the line/load terminals on top if switch, and another set of white/black wires went to the other line/load terminals on bottom of switch. Only one switch worked at the time and it was for another ceiling light. The third set of black/white wires were pushed in box and not used. They were run into attic presumably for future ceiling vent (this is a bathroom).

I installed the ceiling vent, attached the third set of wires to it, and replaced the switch with a new double switch with the tab not removed. I ran the line black to the gold hot terminal, and connected the other two black lines to the load silver terminals, and connected all 3 white neutrals together. This did not work. Ended up the only wire of the six providing any voltage was one of the white wires. I measured at 122.5 volts.

I switched this white and black wires, and still same problem.

The problem is I get a weak current sent off of one of the switches that goes to both the ceiling fan and the ceiling light at the same time. Light barely lights, and fan barely moves. No juice runs through the other switch.

Is this wired correctly inside the box presuming the wires are what i think they are? What else could be the problem?

Thanks


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

This thread is two years old; you should probably start a new one.

MODS: Why don't old threads auto-lock on this forum? That would solve this recurring problem of resurrecting ancient zombie threads.


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

mpoulton said:


> This thread is two years old; you should probably start a new one.
> 
> MODS: Why don't old threads auto-lock on this forum? That would solve this recurring problem of resurrecting ancient zombie threads.


Especially when people also double post. Do they think the exact same question posted twice in the same forum will get better results??? :icon_rolleyes:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

BusterT said:


> IThe other side of the box has 3 sets of wires in it - each set has a black, a white and a ground. The grounds are all connected in a wire nut and attached to the metal electrical box.


Is this the way it was originally or is this what you created?

The box was probably (not certainly) wired up correctly but what you did was incorrect.

A white wire attached to a switch terminal is not neutral. It may (should) have a band of black or red tape or stain at both ends.

You cannot hook up a new ceiling fan or receptacle or other device to a box unless you have a neutral in there.

Normally one of the two wires hooked up to each switch should be hot (120 volts to neutral and usually 120 volts to ground). There are, however, a few exceptions. If one of two wires going to a switch is white, that should be the always hot wire.


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## BusterT (Oct 3, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> Especially when people also double post. Do they think the exact same question posted twice in the same forum will get better results??? :icon_rolleyes:


The 2nd post was in anticipation of the first being removed by the moderator per an earlier comment. If removing the earlier post I entered on the other thread is something you can show me how to do, and the follow up posts that were added to it, I'd be grateful. Thanks for your help.


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## BusterT (Oct 3, 2012)

AllanJ said:


> Is this the way it was originally or is this what you created?


The original wiring description I gave is how the box was wired when I bought the house.

There are no black or red markings on the hot white wire.

The unused switch and the loose unused wires in the box that ran to the attic were presumably in an anticipation of a ceiling fan being installed, which I am now attempting. I want to believe that the box has all the necessary wiring to operate a ceiling fan, but I am now at a standstill.

I will see if I can determine what else may be on this circuit, maybe that will help. I know there's a GFCI outlet in the bathroom on this circuit as well, but connecting/disconnecting this outlet has no impact on the switch in question, so it appears not to be wired in series.


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## electures (Dec 22, 2009)

dave53 said:


> There is no way that a hot wire could have been twisted together with neutrals. There would be a direct short and a blown breaker.
> 
> There are cases where a white wire can be hot, but it really should have some black tape on it to identify it as hot. An example is a switch leg, to a light fixture, where the hot wire is in the box supporting the light fixture. A standard 3-strand wire (white, black, ground) is used to send the hot wire down to the the switch. When I do it, I connect the white wire to the hot (black) in the fixture box, sending the hot side down to the switch with a white wire (which should have black tape near the end). The wire coming back up from the switch is black, so the fixture is connected to a black hot wire and a white neutral.
> 
> *Two circuits in the same box is a no-no*, unless it's a case of using a shared neutral. In that case, the breakers are linked together or a 2-pole is used, so both must be shut off at the same time. You can supply two circuits with a 12-3 or 14-3 wire, using only one neutral, as long as both the black and red wires are hooked to different phases. If that's not done, then the neutral would carry the amperage from both circuits and fry.


Where is that in the NEC? 

Edit - Aah crap!! Just realized this is a two year old thread. Anyway.....,


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