# 150amp to 200amp service upgrade...



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Bring the 2/0 into the meter, then leave the meter to your disconnect or panel with 4/0 Al. Install your 200 A main. You only have to comply with wire sizing rules on the load side of the meter.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Bring the 2/0 into the meter, then leave the meter to your disconnect or panel with 4/0 Al. Install your 200 A main. You only have to comply with wire sizing rules on the load side of the meter.


Really? Is this documented somewhere like a code reference? The power company says I am responsible for ungrading the wiring in the ground to the meter for the upgraded service. I have no problem buying and putting in the 4/0 from the meter to the new panel, that's less than 5 feet. 

My concern would be when I have the final electrical inspection that they will red-flag it becuase the line side of the meter wiring isn't capable of 200 amps. I would love to do it this way and not install a disconnect/OCPD between the panel and the meter.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

theatretch85 said:


> Really? Is this documented somewhere like a code reference? The power company says I am responsible for ungrading the wiring in the ground to the meter for the upgraded service. I have no problem buying and putting in the 4/0 from the meter to the new panel, that's less than 5 feet.
> 
> My concern would be when I have the final electrical inspection that they will red-flag it becuase the line side of the meter wiring isn't capable of 200 amps. I would love to do it this way and not install a disconnect/OCPD between the panel and the meter.


The inspector isn't looking at the line side of the meter. The assumption is that the POCO knows what they're doing and that they will size their wire appropriately. What I'm saying is, there is no NEC code regarding what the POCO has to run. For instance, I have a 200 A service at my house fed from #4 triplex overhead. I replaced a burned out 150 A service a couple weeks back. It was fed with 2/0, 2/0, 1/0 underground, and I told the POCO I would be replacing the service with a 200 A. They said no problem, the 2/0 was fine as far as they are concerned.

You likely will never approach 200 A, and even if you do, the size of the conductors is overrated anyway. There is a large margin factored into the ampacity tables of the NEC. Unless you are adding a significant amount of new load, or are experiencing large voltage drop, I see no reason to upgrade the conductors to the transformer.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

Uh.... while technically correct (in that you are responsible for your wiring from the meter into your house), I wouldn't load up service with a substandad line from the transformer to your meter. The POCO WILL cut your power if they find out. I don't know about your area, but the inspectors here cross check the amperage of the service with the utility service. They won't permit a mismatch except to allow you to install service smaller than the utility can provide. (You can install a 150A service on a 200A line, in other words, but not the other way around).


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Bigplanz said:


> Uh.... while technically correct (in that you are responsible for your wiring from the meter into your house), I wouldn't load up service with a substandad line from the transformer to your meter. The POCO WILL cut your power if they find out. I don't know about your area, but the inspectors here cross check the amperage of the service with the utility service. They won't permit a mismatch except to allow you to install service smaller than the utility can provide. (You can install a 150A service on a 200A line, in other words, but not the other way around).


The utility undersizes their wire all the time :laughing:
They replace the wire or the transformer when they go
I know people with large Christma displays (200-400a) & the POCO said no problem.
So far a couple transformers have gone....no wires....ever


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## rgsgww (Jul 5, 2008)

They try to keep their wire at all times here, There was a tree that crashed through some lines, the fix was over 5 butt splices all over the phases.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

According to SouthWire's ampacity charts, direct-buried underground 2/0 aluminum wire is good for 245 Amps, and their 4/0 is good for 315 Amps.

The poco won't have to change out anything for a simple 200 Amp upgrade in most cases.

Since the utility is not subject to the provisions of the NEC, the limitations placed on utility owned conductors ampacity from table 310.16 do not apply. :whistling2:


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> Since the utility is not subject to the provisions of the NEC, the limitations placed on utility owned conductors ampacity from table 310.16 do not apply. :whistling2:


Absolutely correct. The POCO is exempt from the NEC, which is why I didn't mention the ampacity chart. It is irrelevant as far as the POCO is concerned. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the OP was told by the POCO that his service was undersized from the transformer. The required service line is whatever the POCO says it is. The OP should check with them.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Well when I called to setup the service in my name for the new house, I asked about upgrading to a 200 amp panel. They got back to me this morning saying that without sending out a crew to pull the meter and check the wire that it is probably 2/0 which she told me was only rated for 150 amp service. Per both the electrical inspector and the POCO, the customer is responsible for the wire from the transformer to the meter and into the service panel with Dakota Electric. If I was with Xcel Energy, they do it for you.

My concern would be that the installation would be flagged by the inspector and being without power until its fixed properly. I would agree that the underground wire would be adequate, especially since I won't be using 200 amps all the time. 

I did one year put up 37,000 lights on my parents house, nearly 120 amps worth of holiday lighting very carefully balanced out on a 100 amp service and a dual pole 60 amp breaker. I did manage to pop the main (100amp) breaker a few times during the balancing load process. The winter time would be the only time of the year that the panel/underground wiring would see an increased load. 

One year I noticed that the lights would actually trip the sub panel breaker when the weather got too warm, it actually needed to be cold in order to keep the wires and breaker cool enough to keep from tripping. Turning the lights on in the day to test them was not an option without turning some of the breakers to the lights off first.

150 amp service would be an upgrade to what I had to deal with at my parents place, but I would rather just go to the full 200 amp to have the flexibility. The only thing that will be electric is the dryer for the time being until I get a gas dryer installed. Everything else is gas (furnace, water heater, stove).


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't want to suggest that you do anything sneaky or underhanded, but in reality it isn't that big of a deal. Just call the POCO and tell them you are swapping the service out. Tell them it is an old service and you are modernizing it. Not adding any more load or new equipment. Make the application to the permit office. If they ask what size service on the permit, tell them the truth, 200 A.

I think what has happened is that you have opened a can of worms by even mentioning upgrading the wire size. If you hadn't said anything, the POCO wouldn't have said anything. I have swapped out I don't know how many services, or installed them new, where the utility feeder is 2/0, or smaller if overhead. 

Get your permit. Call the POCO for disconnect. Build your service. Get the inspection. Call for reconnect. Of course, have it in the budget to get the wire, just in case the POCO does demand that it be upgraded. But as it stands now, there really is no reason to waste the money, unless they make you do it. You stay quiet, and likely it will go smoothly.


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## Bigplanz (Apr 10, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I think what has happened is that you have opened a can of worms by even mentioning upgrading the wire size. If you hadn't said anything, the POCO wouldn't have said anything. I have swapped out I don't know how many services, or installed them new, where the utility feeder is 2/0, or smaller if overhead.
> 
> Get your permit. Call the POCO for disconnect. Build your service. Get the inspection. Call for reconnect. Of course, have it in the budget to get the wire, just in case the POCO does demand that it be upgraded. But as it stands now, there really is no reason to waste the money, unless they make you do it. You stay quiet, and likely it will go smoothly.


Inphase is wise in the ways of bureaucracy. In my office this scenario (described above) happens a lot. Just proceed forward, be truthful when asked questions. Let them bring up wire size. If they bring it up, politely ask them about the NEC ampacity chart.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Bigplanz said:


> .... If they bring it up, politely ask them about the NEC ampacity chart.


Also politely show them the Southwire ampacity chart.
 
Ask them which one applies to their end of the installation. :whistling2:


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Haha, sounds good. I think as far as replacing the wire, I'd rather just install a 150 amp disconnect/OCPD, that would be a lot cheaper than the wire would be. 

I have already filed the electrical permit or "Request for Electrical Inspection" as they call the form to do a rough-in on the bathroom and bedroom wiring downstairs, and then a final once I replace the panel and hook it all up. I am also supposed to submit this permit to the power company before I proceed with the service change, so hopefully they don't put 2 and 2 together there.

I am hoping to have the rough-in inspection done next week so that the sheet-rock can start going up in the basement.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

I found a 150 amp main breaker that I could use in one of the 200 amp square D panels I have, though I'd want to get the 40 space panel verses the 30 space I have now. It looks like I can just un-bolt the 200 amp breaker and bolt in the 150 amp. Then when I do upgrade the wire and the service I can put the 200 amp breaker back in.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-150-Am...s=66:2|65:15|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Yeah I know its an ebay link, trying to not spend a ton of money on this panel upgrade. This seems like a better idea than installing a separate 150 amp disconnect, or waiting until I can upgrade the wire in the ground to the transformer.


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

I just cannot see how a service lateral is the HO's responsibility. What if you had a pole mounted XFMR. Are you supposed to run that lateral? You cannot access their XFMR. On the ground or 30 feet in the air. 
Or, do they do the work, then charge you for the materials and labor? I know every jurisdiction is different, but this is a bunch of you know what!

Are they saying you must do it, or are they saying you must pay for it? Because you CANNOT do it. Period.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Here I had to pay an electrician to run the wire
Then the POCO hooked the wire up to the pole


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## handyman78 (Dec 29, 2007)

J. V. said:


> I just cannot see how a service lateral is the HO's responsibility.


It sounds as if they make you responsible for it, not that you are actively expected to repair it! 

In my area of PA, we are responsible to keep our sidewalks free of breaks and root damage for someone tripping although it is the rule that the county owns the pavement! Same goes for the water line from the neighborhood trunk line to your house before the meter- The homeowner is responsible.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

The way I understand it, with Dakota Electric it is my responsibility as the customer/homeowner to upgrade the meter can, and underground service lateral up to the transformer. Whether that be done by me or by an electrician its my responsibility. They would have to take care of disconnecting the old lines and connecting the new lines once its inspected. If I was with Xcel Energy, they take care of everything up to the meter can.

We measured the distance to the transformer and its about 120' and I found Menards sells the 4/0 4/0 2/0 alluminum for $2.47/ft which is not that bad, and at 120' thats about $296.40 though i'd certaintly get a few extra feet just to be sure I have enough, nothing like being a few feet short on a run that long.

I told the inspector that I talked to the power company about doing a "panel replacement" and they said "go ahead" and he said that "they will shut you down if the service doesn't match the service latteral." I tried to convince him that the poco said ok (even though they didn't, haha) but he basically said the panel has to match the ungerground latteral, though I could go smaller (but why???).

I think at this point, I am going to buy the 150 amp main breaker for this QO load center I have (I found a new in box never used breaker on eBay), and then when I go to do the 200 amp upgrade later, I will already have a 200 amp breaker to put back in the panel and only have to change the service latteral up to the panel. I certaintly don't want to buy any breakers for this FPE panel.


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

Well do you really need 200 amps? 

People are using more computers and electronics, but at the same time, CFL lights and more efficient appliances are reducing other areas of energy usage.... so really you may not need a lot more capacity in the future.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Well I am a holiday lighting enthusiast and one year I setup 37,000 lights that took 120 amps worth of power. I managed to trip the 100 amp main breaker at my parents place a couple times while I was balancing loads out. Problem was I balanced it out on the holiday lights subpanel but was out of balance on the main panel and tripped the main breaker. I'd like to be able to do the holiday lights at my new house without having to worry about tripping the main breaker again. 

And for the record, I HATE CFL's! Florescents are "ok" for the garage and workshop areas, but for everyday living I prefer incandescents or halogens.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Try the higher "K" value CFL's
Normal CFL's are around 3000K light spectrum
Then they have around 4,000LK lights
I bought (blue pkg) Daylight CFL bulbs at Home Depot - very nice
I then found Bright effects 6500K bulbs at Lowes - even better!!


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## Gigs (Oct 26, 2008)

You won't have a choice. Incandescent lights are banned. 100 watts is banned in 2012 and down through 40 watts in 2014.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Actually they aren't banned, they are required to be more efficient
They did come out with a new incandescent that meets the new requirements
But they opted to drop the technology & instead concentrate on the next technology LED & OLED

http://www.geconsumerproducts.com/pressroom/press_releases/lighting/new_products/HE_lamps_07.htm


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## J. V. (Jun 1, 2007)

Scuba_Dave said:


> Here I had to pay an electrician to run the wire
> Then the POCO hooked the wire up to the pole


Did the electrician just leave enough on the ground for them to reach the xfmr? Just leave a few sticks of PVC for them too? Maybe a few 1 hole straps too? Then I think I get it, but?

A licensed electrician or contractor is usually not allowed to climb a power pole and has no ability to access a ground mounted transformer.
Even if you must provide the lateral, who installs the conduit to the side of the pole and pulls the wire up to the transformer? Who opens up the transformer on the ground and gets his conductors in there? Only the POCO can climb the pole, install the conduit to the side of it, or open up the ground mounted transformer.

Thats like saying run a conduit from point A to point B, but you cannot access point A.

The only way this lateral can be installed and be his responsibility is for the POCO to install it and then he pays for it. 

I could understand if the service were overhead. Then he could build a mast and leave the SE conductors hanging for the POCO to connect. But underground it would be impossible unless electricians are allowed to work on/in/around POCO equipment.


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Ok, looking to finally swap out my panel this week, have a few last minute questions regarding the swap.

Main questions are regarding the ground of the new panel. I am installing 2 5/8" ground rods outside with the inentions on upgrading to a 200 amp service later. Can I just run this ground wire through this 4" hole where the A/C compressor lines and CATV line run through, or does it need to be protected as the wire passes through the wall (hole will be filled in once work has been completed)? What is the preferred/required way to route the ground wires from the water pipe bond and the ground rods into the panel? Just puch a knockout and run the wires through or does there need to be some sort of a gromet or conduit bushing for the wires to pass through?

Also, I will be replacing the wire that runs to the water pipe bond as the old wire is a 4 gauge aluminum wire that appears to be oxidized (no compund used prior?). I would like to change this wire to copper and want to make sure its adequate for a furture upgrade to 200 amp service. Is 6 gauge copper adequate or does this water pipe bond need to be larger?

Wet Bar outlets that will be GFCI and in a family room area, do these need to be AFCI protected as well? I assume the bathroom circuit is fine on a standard breaker as long as the outlet is GFCI protected correct?

Lastly, I am installing 2 - 15 amp AFCI circuit breakers for 2 circuits that have been altered/installed and one of these circuits happens to include the hard-wired smoke detectors. I know you can't put the hard-wired smoke detectors on a GFCI circut but will they work on an AFCI circuit or will I be experiencing issues with this?

I am looking to have the POCO disconnect on Tuesday afternoon with an inspection on Wednesday morning this week, so hopefully everything goes well and as planned....


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

J. V. said:


> Did the electrician just leave enough on the ground for them to reach the xfmr? Just leave a few sticks of PVC for them too? Maybe a few 1 hole straps too? Then I think I get it, but?
> 
> A licensed electrician or contractor is usually not allowed to climb a power pole and has no ability to access a ground mounted transformer.
> Even if you must provide the lateral, who installs the conduit to the side of the pole and pulls the wire up to the transformer? Who opens up the transformer on the ground and gets his conductors in there? Only the POCO can climb the pole, install the conduit to the side of it, or open up the ground mounted transformer.
> ...


Wire was required to be run inside a 10' galvy conduit, Enough slack was left for the POCO to make the connections on the pole
POCO requirements, not mine or the Inspectors


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## theatretch85 (May 17, 2008)

Well I ended up getting about 50' of the insulated THWN 6 gauge green grounding wire. Re-strung the ground to the water pipe bonding both before and after the meter with new grounding lugs (previously there was only one lug before the meter). Drove 2 8' 5/8" ground rods at about 7' apart, connected them with another run of the 6guage THWN wire, fed through the previously mentioned 4" hole. 

POCO will be out today to disconnect power at my house at 3pm, with hopes of completing everything and passing a final inspection tomorrow morning.


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## mnbowhunter77 (Jul 2, 2009)

theatretch85 said:


> Well I ended up getting about 50' of the insulated THWN 6 gauge green grounding wire. Re-strung the ground to the water pipe bonding both before and after the meter with new grounding lugs (previously there was only one lug before the meter). Drove 2 8' 5/8" ground rods at about 7' apart, connected them with another run of the 6guage THWN wire, fed through the previously mentioned 4" hole.
> 
> POCO will be out today to disconnect power at my house at 3pm, with hopes of completing everything and passing a final inspection tomorrow morning.


Let us know what happens.. I'm in Farmington and am looking at replacing my overhead with an underground line. I currently have a 100amp setup and would like to get a 200amp underground. My run is also about 125', so I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of your situation  .. GoodLuck


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## AndrewF (Dec 29, 2008)

J. V. said:


> . . . then he could build a mast and leave the SE conductors hanging for the POCO to connect. But underground it would be impossible unless electricians are allowed to work on/in/around POCO equipment.


In my case, POCO told me to stop 2' short of the transformer with my trench and they would take it from there. Out here, they also provide the wire from the meter can to their transformer.

So for my upgrade, I chose to put 3" PVC conduit from the meter socket to their transformer so that I would never have to tear up the yard or patio if new wire had to be pulled. (I plan on doing concrete stamping over the area where the trench was.) The conduit cost me around $100.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> Well I ended up getting about 50' of the insulated THWN 6 gauge green grounding wire


Good for the ground rods but the water requires #4. Maybe they will let it slide.


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