# Shoring a block wall



## de-nagorg (Feb 23, 2014)

I think that you will crush the blocks long before you push that much dirt back to it's original position. 

Once dirt settles into something like this it is usually quite permanent.

Unless dug out .


And if those blocks crush, you will have major structure collapse that Insurance will most likely not cover.


ED


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I cannot tell from the photo if that is a block wall or a concrete wall, makes a difference in recommended fix. If a block wall, do you know if the block is filled or empty, and is there any reinforcing in the block?


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

All good points Ed. The only thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is that the deflection is so small. It may actually be a little less than 2". And when I say steady force over time, I am thinking several months to possibly years.

I got you down on the "nay" side, thanks Ed


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I cannot tell from the photo if that is a block wall or a concrete wall, makes a difference in recommended fix. If a block wall, do you know if the block is filled or empty, and is there any reinforcing in the block?



Dan, It is a block wall. 
While drilling for Tap-cons in another location I hit what I believed to be re-bar. From this I can only surmise that the cavity's are filled and re-enforced. To be 100% I will need to drill some holes in the target area.


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## MikeFL (Nov 14, 2016)

The proper fix would have been to excavate on the outside of the wall and replace the wall. 

A next best approach is to build a sheer wall or pilaster perpendicular to that wall. Use 8" block and make it 8' long. You don't say how long the wall is.

From your photos it appears to carry only the load of the beam in the photo as far as vertical loads. Lateral load is the soil on the outside.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

In my experience, it is almost impossible to successfully push a block wall back into vertical without removing the soil. The amount of force required is high, it is difficult to distribute the force evenly across the wall, so the result of aggressive efforts to push the block wall back into position can include crushing the block, or irregular movement of the block.

I recently designed a project to stabilize a block wall that had bowed inward. In that project, I specified steel columns (I shape), similar to what was depicted in the article you referenced. We made no effort to plumb the wall, the goal was to stabilize in place, and the project was successful. The owner could cover the steel columns with drywall if they did not want to look at the exposed steel.

I would rate this an advance DIY project, if you have not done this before, you would do well to find someone with experience to help you out, it is not quite as easy as the article suggests, that contractor had a lot of experience and knowledge, and probably could tell you some interesting stories over a few beers.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Dan thank you for your comments. The scope of this project does not intimidate me in the least. I am experienced in all facets of residential construction including structural. Although masonry work I have the least time with, I can competently mix and pour concrete and build block walls. I do have the capabilities and equipment to excavate the outer wall but would prefer not to as long as a reasonable repair can be made without. If moving the wall is a unrealistic approach, then stabilization using steel I-beams will likely be the next approach.

I would be a 100% full time GC but I spend 95% of my time working on my own properties.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> The proper fix would have been to excavate on the outside of the wall and replace the wall.
> 
> A next best approach is to build a sheer wall or pilaster perpendicular to that wall. Use 8" block and make it 8' long. You don't say how long the wall is.
> 
> From your photos it appears to carry only the load of the beam in the photo as far as vertical loads. Lateral load is the soil on the outside.



Mike this wall is 24' long. The most severe deflection occurs at 6 to 8' from the left. And you are correct with your loading assumptions.

I might consider blocking up a shear wall under the beam, but I believe would still need I-beam supports on either side. Probably two on the left and one on the right at 4' OC.

Anyone with experience using helical anchors?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

"I like the idea of straightening the wall if its possible. But if its not possible without excavating, then I will use one of the other methods. "


Helical bracing requires excavation, and i'm not even sure it can be done with a block wall, if you have to excavate you might as well just replace the wall, Helical work is EXPENSIVE.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

.
"Helical bracing requires excavation, and i'm not even sure it can be done with a block wall, if you have to excavate you might as well just replace the wall, Helical work is EXPENSIVE."

Canarywood,
Thanks for your comment. On my original post there is a link to a helical anchor repair done by drilling thru the wall, screw insertion of the anchor then adding a plate and nut. My first impression was that no excavation would be required and thus a less expensive repair. I am not convinced it would be a suitable repair but still find the technique worth some exploration.
I have a couple months to sort out what method to take. So plenty of time to come up with a feasible plan.


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Yodaman said:


> .
> "Helical bracing requires excavation, and i'm not even sure it can be done with a block wall, if you have to excavate you might as well just replace the wall, Helical work is EXPENSIVE."
> 
> Canarywood,
> ...




The bulge in the wall indicates the ground is anything but stable, thus the reason for excavation, as there's nothing to screw the helical anchor into.


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## MikeFL (Nov 14, 2016)

If anyone has pointed up that wall or even painted it since it's been moving, you're not going to push it back. 

How much water do you have coming in?


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

' If anyone has pointed up that wall or even painted it since it's been moving, you're not going to push it back ',,, what kind of engineer are you - electrical ? certainly can't be structural or soils,,, trying to push the wall back into position w/o exterior excavation's impossible so stop even thinking about it,,, you'll have more luck putting 5gal of wtr into a 4gal bucket,,, there's a lot of lateral pressure on that wall from the soil outside but not abnormal for any block wall,,, should that pressure have been anticipated & more strength included in the original wall ? moot point now !

you can either attempt to prevent more move by installing daniel's 3"x4" i-beams anchored to the footer ( not floor ) & plate attached to floor joists ( typical bsmnt wtrproofer's solution ) OR install concealed steel reinforced concrete ' wall pins ' ( i like these more ),,, neither disguise a visible ' belly ' - here's some info: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/b...all-strengthening-w-concealed-wall-pins.htmlb

we prefer them,,, when installed, there's no broadcasting to future buyers the wall's experienced any distress,,, strength is the same as i-beams, no leverage against floor joists above,,, i always thought i-beams were kind of like using skyhooks anyway

most of the other responders have seen this before - they just forgot :vs_worry:

best of luck


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## MikeFL (Nov 14, 2016)

Brainiac:

If you read the thread there was discussion about excavating the other side of the wall as well as other suggestions on how to straighten the wall. The statement I was making was that regardless of what method he uses, nothing is going to straighten the wall if anything has been put in the fracture.



stadry said:


> ' If anyone has pointed up that wall or even painted it since it's been moving, you're not going to push it back ',,, what kind of engineer are you - electrical ? certainly can't be structural or soils,,, trying to push the wall back into position w/o exterior excavation's impossible so stop even thinking about it,,, you'll have more luck putting 5gal of wtr into a 4gal bucket,,, there's a lot of lateral pressure on that wall from the soil outside but not abnormal for any block wall,,, should that pressure have been anticipated & more strength included in the original wall ? moot point now !
> 
> you can either attempt to prevent more move by installing daniel's 3"x4" i-beams anchored to the footer ( not floor ) & plate attached to floor joists ( typical bsmnt wtrproofer's solution ) OR install concealed steel reinforced concrete ' wall pins ' ( i like these more ),,, neither disguise a visible ' belly ' - here's some info: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/b...all-strengthening-w-concealed-wall-pins.htmlb
> 
> ...


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

we do it, yes, it requires more work & cost increases but its certainly do-able


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> If anyone has pointed up that wall or even painted it since it's been moving, you're not going to push it back.
> 
> How much water do you have coming in?




There is no water coming in now. Not certain that it ever really did. But I am sure it is contributing factor in the failure. Just purchased this HUD property over the summer. The gutters were not maintained. Making matters worse there is a valley that funneled water onto the subject wall side. Combine this with annual freeze thaw cycles that opens a crack between block wall and paved driveway and this would be the sources of water. 

Run off concerns have been corrected.

Looks like a portion of the wall has been painted since the movement started. The right hand side, to the right of the remains of the studded wall


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

if you need to repaint, that's not expensive,,, iirc, sec 8/hud doesn't worry about basements IF you're renting to tenants


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

stadry said:


> '
> 
> you can either attempt to prevent more move by installing daniel's 3"x4" i-beams anchored to the footer ( not floor ) & plate attached to floor joists ( typical bsmnt wtrproofer's solution ) OR install concealed steel reinforced concrete ' wall pins ' ( i like these more ),,, neither disguise a visible ' belly ' - here's some info: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/b...all-strengthening-w-concealed-wall-pins.htmlb
> 
> ...



Staydry, the link you posted does not work, however I have read some of your other posts detailing the technique. I would have to drill some test holes, but I think the cores are already filled. I hit rebar
(I think) in another location.

I understand your point of a less visible repair. But just to play devils advocate, since the bulge or failure is visible, wouldn't it be better to 
see the repair? In my case, it's not likely the house will be sold in my life time, so visibility is not a major concern. 
Thanks


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

sorry for the delay - we were in the land of oz for 2wks

noting you post, i wouldn't disagree,,, we have done both,,, the method i post'd was a chicago pe's solution maybe 35yrs ago,,, w/i-beams, you have only 1 contact point,,, w/concealed wall pins, total contact

but its not my house either - best wishes ! no snow in binghamton !


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

stadry said:


> sorry for the delay - we were in the land of oz for 2wks
> 
> noting you post, i wouldn't disagree,,, we have done both,,, the method i post'd was a chicago pe's solution maybe 35yrs ago,,, *w/i-beams, you have only 1 contact point,,, w/concealed wall pins, total contact
> *
> but its not my house either - best wishes ! no snow in binghamton !


I tend to disagree, after spending much time discussing with several structural engineers in my area, including one who is considered to be the area "expert". Here, in SE Wisconsin, we have to grout behind the entire height of the wall restraint with NS grout. 

I fail to see any downside to fastening the wall restraints to the wood floor system, as it's actually quite beneical. Ater all, why wouldn't you use the lateral restraint of the floor joists to help support the oundation walls?

Even though your link didn't work, I think I know what you're suggesting, which is similar to the "seat of the pants engineering" approach I used to take as well. The problem with that style o repair is that there's no way to ensure the rebar is close to the inner face of the foundation wall, where it needs to be to be placed in tension under load, it requires small diameter rebar to be used, it's messy, and it doesn't attach the foundation to the balance of the house.


Yodaman, here is a link to a limited amount of requirements we're required to use here for foundation repairs. An in-depth google search may net you the 40+ pages of drawings and specs for specific situations, that should cover most every situation. Note that the steel restraints and spacing are much more robust than you mentioned earlier, just know there's a reason for that......

http://www.wafrp.com/wafrp_foundation_repair_standards.asp


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

Jomama, Thanks for the Wisconsin link. Looks like under their guidelines any repair made would involve excavation because I am more than 1" out. Although I am not going to excavate I am leaning toward using the steal I-beam repair method and was curious what their recommendation was regarding spacing. Says to ref Apendix AA, but had no luck loading or finding.

The link I posted in the first post suggest 4' to 5' centers, sounds like you, (or Wisconsin) thinks they should be much closer.


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## jomama45 (Nov 13, 2008)

Yodaman said:


> Jomama, Thanks for the Wisconsin link. Looks like under their guidelines any repair made would involve excavation because I am more than 1" out. Although I am not going to excavate I am leaning toward using the steal I-beam repair method and was curious what their recommendation was regarding spacing. Says to ref Apendix AA, but had no luck loading or finding.
> 
> The link I posted in the first post suggest 4' to 5' centers, sounds like you, (or Wisconsin) thinks they should be much closer.


THe link to Appendix AA is at the bottom of the first page, or here:

http://www.wafrp.com/wafrp_documents/WAFRP Standards Document Appendix AA.pdf


When you open it, you'll see the spacing and tubing size varies dependign on a number of variables.


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## Mrbuilder (Nov 15, 2016)

Yodaman, I've read and gone to all the links from all the guys helping. Great advice from them all. What I think the bottom line is, nothing you can do, short of excavation and re-doing drainage to prevent reoccurrence, will SOLVE your problem. In my opinion, and in my experience of 40+ yrs in construction, If the root cause is not addressed (water drainage), it'll happen again, or get worse. Unfortunately Yodaman, inexpensive doesn't apply here. The structure has been compromised, and the wall cannot be pushed back to it's original form without excavation. :vs_cool::vs_coffee:


My oppinion


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Mrbuilder said:


> Yodaman, I've read and gone to all the links from all the guys helping. Great advice from them all. What I think the bottom line is, nothing you can do, short of excavation and re-doing drainage to prevent reoccurrence, will SOLVE your problem. In my opinion, and in my experience of 40+ yrs in construction, If the root cause is not addressed (water drainage), it'll happen again, or get worse. Unfortunately Yodaman, inexpensive doesn't apply here. The structure has been compromised, and the wall cannot be pushed back to it's original form without excavation. :vs_cool::vs_coffee:
> 
> 
> My oppinion




I agree, anything short of excavation and repair, is just a bandaid.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

I appreciate the feedback from all. As stated earlier the drainage issues that contributed to this have been corrected. I agree the the wall has been compromised and stabilization is a band aid. A band aid will take me 2-3 days, surgery will take me 2-3 weeks. Its Just not in the cards right now. 

If this band aid gets me 10 years I will consider it a success.


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## stadry (Jun 20, 2009)

jomama's post noted & appreciated - we also use 12,000 # non-shrink grout


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## MI-Roger (Aug 8, 2009)

You need helical tie-backs augered into the earth beneath your driveway, then hydraulically jacked to straighten the wall. This is NOT a D-I-Y repair. See the link below for a variation of this method.

http://www.drymich.com/foundation-repair/foundation-services/wall-straightening.html

This company is in Michigan but I am certain there will be similar specialty contractors in your area. Expect to pay ~$1,500 per installed tie-back based on my experience with similar repair technique for a different problem.


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