# what joist hangers to use for blind header



## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

the first thing I recommend is to stop and think about what you are going to do.

It seems to me that you are going to trust someone on the internet to say that you can blindly install a structural member that will be a major part of the ceilings in two rooms and cut into an engineered truss and try and patch it together.

Yup, I'm outa here.

Andy.


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## a.griggs77 (Nov 18, 2011)

the header i know how to do just cant locate the correct hangers for the header. The truss i dont think will be much of a deal they are 2x4 and 16 on center if i add cross braces cut 1 truss and another cross brace to connect the two uncut trusses and run bracing up at angle to top of truss i think it would be fine just wondering what some of u think and if u know a part number or name for the hangers.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

> the header i know how to do


Really? And who told you that?

It seems you know how to cut an engineered truss and fix it too.

For god's sake man, get a real engineer involved in this.

Andy.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

a.griggs77 said:


> I am getting ready to open up a 11 ft hole between living room and kitchen. There will be a arched opening and there isnt room for header below ceiling joist so im going to have to do a blind header. I can not find the right hangers for this. I have 2x6 ceiling joists overlapped over this wall so 3inches with for the two. The beam will be 16 to 18 ft long one end sitting on outside wall and header will be build of 2x12 doubled with 1/2 inch ply sandwiched between. I need a hanger that is 3 1/2 inch for 2x12 and 3 inch 2x6. Any idea where to get the hangers from or what they are called. Also to get 16 to 18ft beam in attic i am going to have to open up the access in garage.


Who spec'd the header for you? Are you getting permits and inspections?



> Garage has 2x4 trusses i am going to have to cut one truss how will i go about doing that without making it weaker. thanks alot


You CAN'T do this without talking to the truss manufacturer and having them tell you how it can be done or you talk to an architect or engineer and they can tell you how it can be done. No one on the internet can tell you this.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

a.griggs77 said:


> the header i know how to do just cant locate the correct hangers for the header.


How do you know?



> The truss i dont think will be much of a deal they are 2x4 and 16 on center if i add cross braces cut 1 truss and another cross brace to connect the two uncut trusses and run bracing up at angle to top of truss i think it would be fine just wondering what some of u think and if u know a part number or name for the hangers.


You have no idea what you are talking about. You cannot come up with your own solution for this. If you were smart you would listen to what we just told you. What makes you think you can come up with a solution to this? Just want to here how you think.

You are not a truss designer and you do not know how to cut a truss and fix it yourself. It's that simple!


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

To answer your specific question....

For the double 2x6's...Simpson LUS26-2 hanger
For a single 2x12, Simpson LUS210

But I have to echo the concerns of the guys above....based on what I'm going through with my 2-story addition, your proposed beam sounds 'lacking' for that kind of span. To give you a relative idea....I'm spaning a 14' distance and one of the load bearing beams is a 12x3.5 PSL. If you do some research, you will find that a PSL beam has a significant load advantage over any solid lumber....even with plywood sandwhiched in between.

If your doing this without permits.....oh boy....this would be a classic example of why we do have building codes and permit requirements.


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## project_guy (Jan 12, 2008)

Sounds like you are planning to put the header above the ceiling joists, hence the 3" wide hangar dimension? (supporting the overlapped part?) I recently did this on my house, and used joist hangers inverted so I didn't have to open up the ceiling below which would have meant tearing out kitchen soffit. 

The span was 14' clear, and I used LVLs. I am a mechanical engineer and design a lot of steel structures and ran all the numbers. I still hired a structural engineer to sign off on it. The loads aren't as straight forward as one may think, so I considered it money well spent. Now I don't have to worry if my assumptions were correct when there's 18" of snow on my 60 year old roof structure, and that helps me sleep better at night... just my experience.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

im with everyone else on this, CONSULT AN ENGINEER!!!. 

i have done this sort of thing and we brought in an engineer first before we cut any wood. you doing it yourself is the sorta thing mike holmes rips apart on his show when he sees this sorta thing done by contractors.

as for the hard to find hangers.. i can get this sort of hanger but thats by special request through my lumber yard. ive always wondered why big box stores dont sell the heavy duty hangers... reading this post makes me realize.. so diy'ers dont try to alter structure, its basically keeping a loaded gun out of the hands of someone who isnt trained to fire it


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

woodworkbykirk said:


> reading this post makes me realize.. so diy'ers dont try to alter structure, its basically keeping a loaded gun out of the hands of someone who isnt trained to fire it


This is the problem with this forum. Just because it's a DIY'er forum many many people come here and think that ANY job is for a DIY'er, especially structural work like this guy here. Some jobs are NOT Diy'er jobs, but you can't get that through their heads.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

exactly joe..

whats diy,,, clean up the yard ,, take out garbage, hang a picture. order pizza

whats not diy

rewire a house, remove a bearing wall, run ductwork in your house for a venmar. lung transplant


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

Ignorance is bliss! Not in this case, ignorance can lead to serious injury, if not death!.

GET A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER! DO NOT PASS GO! DO NOT COLLECT $200. GO TO JAIL WITH NO FREE CARDS! In Australia, we call ignorant buffoon DIY's dipsticks.

To quote Napolean, "My greatest battle was to convince an idiot he was one". 

My blood rush to the head is slowly abating - Cheers from OZ. :thumbdown:


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

JoJo-Arch said:


> Ignorance is bliss! Not in this case,* ignorance can lead to serious injury, if not death!.*


That's been explained to many people here before about doing things like this. Some people just don't care and think they know it all...even though they don't and still ask the question and when they don't like the answer they insist on doing it their way.


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

hear! hear! I'M WITH JOE ALL THE WAY!

FROM AN ARCHITECT ALSO NAMED JOE


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

Can I add this general observation. Can all questions based on safety issues, structural issues, code issues, compliance issues etc. be carefully analysed as to the motives behind the question. It's dangerous for DIY's with basic knowledge to bridge the gap between DIY and professional, qualified responses and advise other DIY's without considering the consequences and how such advice will be used. In this case, a highly technical and structural question was asked (cut through a load bearing truss), masked with trivia detail. Some responded by answering the easy part of the question, that is what hangers to be used, rather than looking deeper and telling the original poster he is playing with fire. In such cases and questions, I would not personally advise anything structural unless I knew all the facts and know the difference between how far an architect can recommend advice and when to bring in the structural engineer. Fortunately, I have enough knowledge and experience to only provide a measured response, one that I have already experienced or discussed with structural engineers and one within an architect's field of expertise. Apologies if this sounds like a lecture, but DIY tasks are sometimes getting out of hand, Cheers from Oz.


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## a.griggs77 (Nov 18, 2011)

so basically if im not painting or doing trim work dont go to this site. You all are saying no one on here does anything with out paying an engineer out the @ss to tell them how to do everything i call bs.  just asked about the joist hangers. If u dont know dont respond and if the house fell and killed me so f%cking be it. I will not post here again unless i cant figure out how to mix paint or pull a nail.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

a.griggs77 said:


> so basically if im not painting or doing trim work dont go to this site. You all are saying no one on here does anything with out paying an engineer out the @ss to tell them how to do everything i call bs.  just asked about the joist hangers. If u dont know dont respond *and if the house fell and killed me so f%cking be it*.


Brilliant!!!....Problem with your mentality is that if that were to happen it would probably kill someone else. Sad thing is that it sounds like you will do what you want and cut the trusses and probably kill someone.




> I will not post here again unless i cant figure out how to mix paint or pull a nail.


Finally the smartest thing you have said so far.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

To the original poster:

Joe, Kirk, and myself probably have a combined total of 100 years of framing experience. I would not even think to do what you are planning. I urge you to seek out a competent framing contractor, and let him tell you the same thing in person. You are about to alter your house in a way that will cost you many times over to repair.


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

Yep! You can at least draw conclusions


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

the absolute only time i would say its ok to cut a truss that in place is if. and thats a big if there were extras sent and instead of those extra trusses up and tossing em in the dumpster they were installed in a random spot in the floor or ceiling.. however this is extremely rare

when you recieve a package of floor trusses to install when framing a new house a install manual is enclose, it clearly will state " DO NOT CUT OR MODIFY ANY OF THE TRUSSES WITHOUT WRITTEN CONSENT FROM THE ENGINEER WHO DESIGNED THE FLOOR OR ROOF SYSTEM" the floor or roof layout will have a contact number for the engineer who designed it. if a problem arises you call the engineer they will either give you a quick fix to remedy the problem or will have however many trusses needed to fix the problem made up and sent out immediately... as those who have modern houses would know.. theres a reason these systems are called "Engineered floor system or roof system.. " a engineer designed them and must be installed exactly as shown in the drawing other wise it will not pass inspection.. if what was done deviates what the drawing is showing in any major way the inspector will not only fail it they have the power to condem it.

NOW. one thing you seriously have to realize is. municipalities keep records of what renovations have been done to homes.. if something major is done to a place and the proper steps werent taken i.e permit... and something happens you can and will be sued plus your insurance company wont back you in this situation.. case in point 8 years ago. a single mother in my city hired a contractor to underpin and jack up her house so to install a full basement. she didnt get a permit and didnt use a contractor who was insured for this type of work. she figured she could save money by doing it this way... she was very wrong. the house collapsed and was condemned.. she tried claiming it through her insurance company.. when they investigated the contractor and saw no insurance for that type of work.. the womans insurance company told her your s%it outta luck not getting any money and they cancelled her plan..

so.. whats my point,, there is a reason there are diy projects and projects that require proffesionals.. pros have the knowledge, skill and resource pool to safely alter structure. one thing i was taught very early on in my career was.. "before you can learn to renovate and do structural alterations, you have to learn how to build structure and frame a house" you cant learn by pulling things apart and trying to figure out how to put it back together


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## a.griggs77 (Nov 18, 2011)

This is all were going to do. Im not tearing the house down or the whole wall. The ceilling is too low so I have to use a blind header. All Im asking is if anybody knows what joist hangers to use. Just forget about cutting the trusses in the garage. I didnt ask for all this other BS if you cant answer the question I asked then please dont answer at all.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 25, 2011)

what we're telling you is to get an engineer to spec a proper size beam for what you intend to do!!!!! you need the correct size beam first from there you get the hanger that matches!

and in your sketch there thats not a blind beam... its a dropped beam with a archway framed to it... and also its called a FLUSH BEAM


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

I think what he wants is to place the beam on top of the joists. Then hang the joist under the beam. But he is showing drop beam in the illustration. 
Andy.


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

From your very nice sketch, the picture changes entirely. It may be possible to support the ceiilngs either side of the wall by placing 2x6 on the flat and prop every 3'0'' or so from underneath. Then you can remove the studs and plasterboard to make the opening. Make the opening 11'8'' wide. Then install a 3''x12'' glulam beam (laminated beam) hard up against the existing joists, supported on 4''x4'' posts either side. This will give you an opening close to 11'0'' wide and 8'0'' high at the top of the arch if you have 9'0'' ceilings. You can then cut the arch out of two 1/2'' plasterboard sheets and nail or glue to the beam either side. Fill in the curve with 3/8'' plastersheet after using plaster steel angle to get a sharp and neat edge. If you find this tricky, maybe a plasterer friend will do it for you. Once everything is in place, remove the temporary supports, paint the ceilings and arched opening and enjoy. 

This all hinges on two main conditions, firstly check the roof space and make sure the wall is only supporting the ceiling joists and there are no other vertical or angled props supporting the roof coming off this wall. Secondly you need a ceiling height of at least 8'6'' to get a spring height (the lowest point of the arch) of 7'1'' at the ends of the arch. The arch will be very shallow and you can make it look deeper if you have a higher ceiling.

With this method, provided you satisfy the above conditions, you can do all the work with total freedom from floor level. You don't need to get a large and heavy beam into the ceiling, or even think about touching trusses in the garage. You don't even have to go into the roof space, you don't need hangers and you can lift the 11'8'' beam if a couple of friends manouvre it at each end. You can also prefix the end posts to the beam and erect it as one piece. Then you can form the arch and cover in drywall. Make sure you don't skimp on the temporary propping. You can hire builders props which are strong and adjustable. You will need about 8 props and two pieces of 2x6, 12'0'' long or so to hold up the ceiling & joists while you remove the wall studs for the opening. Leave the existing wall plate over the opening in place and sit the new beam hard up against it from underneath.

I don't normally give this type of advice, and I would still run it past a structural engineer and get his opinion whether your local codes allow this type of modification without certification. Cheers! (ps who did the nice sketch?) from Joe of Oz.


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## a.griggs77 (Nov 18, 2011)

Thanks jo jo arch this was the most help Ive gotten yet and what I was looking for. The picture came off the internet some place i dont even remember. I guess I wasnt explaining it clearly. But the only issue i have is we only have 8' ceiling. 11' for the width isnt set in stone but around that. If anything it can actually be a little smaller then 11' since our kitchen for now, is on the other side and fridge is on left side and I dont want to look at it. But the arch will be trimmed out and will be painted. I was thinking of using 1/4" birch plywood soaked to form the top arch instead of drywall. I called today to see about permits and we dont need one unless we are building a new structure or adding on a addition. My plan is to build the beam way overkill. The beam in attic, im thinking doubled, or maybe tripled 2x12 with one end of beam sitting on outside 2x6 wall and on right side of arch 4-2x4 jacks. There will only be a foot and a half from the ouside wall to the right side of arch. Then on the left side of arch have 4 more. The 2x12 are 18' long and at the end of that on left, have 3 or 4 more 2x4 jacks. Then im thinking if i drop the side of arch down to 6 ft 3 inchs my height that would give me room to add a normal 2x8 header below the ceiling joists. I dont see how this could go anywhere. And to take the advice on truss im just going to remove a few pieces of siding and cut the sheeting and slide the pieces for beam in then patch it back. And assemble the header in attic. Thanks for the input.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

> Thanks jo jo arch this was the most help Ive gotten yet and what I was looking for.


So all you were looking for is for someone, on the internet to design this for you for free?

Congratulations, you are a winner.

Andy.


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## JoJo-Arch (Sep 15, 2011)

Just noticed you state the ceiling is 8'0' high. Code (in Oz) requires an arch must start no lower than 7'1''. This means 99% of people won't bang their heads on the Arch. You need to speak to a structural engineer, as the only way you get away with it is to go to a steel hollow section beam which may go down to 4''x8" (depending what the SE says) and bye-bye arch, Otherwise you have to revise the whole idea and try an get a beam in the ceiling and hang the joits from it. Either way, it's not going to be a simple job.


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