# flashing replacement window



## AGWhitehouse (Jul 1, 2011)

Can flanges be retrofitted? I know that most vinyl windows have the channels molded into ALL the frame types so they can use the same extruders to save on manufacturing. Then if a window needs a flange, they slide it into the channel, miter cut and weld the corners. Give them a call.

A window without a flange is considered a "replacement" window while the a flanged window is a "new construction". I cannot and do not recommend installing your replacement windows in a new construction type of opening that you are describing. It is practically impossible to flash it properly...sorry


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to disagree completely with AG Whitehouse. There is no reason for your windows to be removed, and fin-less windows can and are installed in RO's regularly for a variety of reasons. It may not be ideal, nor is it the cookie-cutter method that framers and new construction guys are used to, but you have what you have so you just need to work with it. 
What you will need to do is some high-end flashing work, which may be above your level of expertise and equipment. There are a few different ways to attack it, but my recommendation would be to call a professional (at least for this phase of the project).


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

And if it didn't have a nail fin.. Didn't they leave the frames of your old window in?


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

re stuccoing would give you the opportunity to put a drip cap over the stucco fin,you could actually close of the sides and the head wth a Z bend flash that like a flange,leave the bottom open


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

*more info*

Thanks for the help.

AGWhitehouse inspired me to call a local Anlin installer. 

Yes, the old frames are still there. 

The local installer recommended that I remove the old frames when I remove the stucco. The old frames should have flanges for flashing. After demolition, I should install the OSB first. Then I should re-install the old frames into the OSB , using all applicable flashing techniques, incorporating the house wrap. Then, install the concrete siding. The local installer said I should seal the replacement window to the old frame. In this way, I take advantage of the flashing of the old frame. Then, the sealing of the replacement window "fin" to the concrete siding is only one part of the protection. I told him how the replacement windows are installed now, with only a seal to the stucco and no seal to the old frame and he called that an incorrect installation.

I'm still not clear on how to accomplish the seal to the old frame, but if I can solve that I would feel like this is do-able. I can understand the position of AGWhitehouse, that nothing beats the window system designed for new construction. One helpful thing in my present case is that I have a one-story house and the tops of the windows are under the eaves; not too much water cascades down onto the top of the window.

Comments, anyone?

Tom


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

i really don't understand what you or the local installer are talking about,what makes you think the old frames have a fin?

a fin is an installation aid..nothing more


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

He's talking about the nailing flange of the OLD window that is original to the house.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

If I were you.. Since you're already going to be removing the old frames anyway.. Just build out your opening to properly fit your replacement window. Just add 2 1/4 trim on the inside sheetrock rock to picture frame it and then a little paint and your done. Are you able to install a flange on your block frame Anlin? I'm pretty sure you can.. And from there it seems you understand how to do the rest.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

what makes you think the OLD windows had a flange?


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

100% of the thousands of windows I set in new construction had flanges. Whether it was vinyl, aluminum, or wood.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

oh well if your that sure:whistling2:


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Maybe I'm missing something here,but why is the old frame being removed, followed by reinstalling replacement windows that were sized to fit within it? Am I reading that wrong?.... That would be utterly pointless because the windows would then be undersized for the RO and need a buck frame built anyway,which is essentially the same thing as leaving the existing frame... I realize that things are done a little differently out west, so maybe there is some regional difference?:huh:


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

*fins and flanges*

May I attempt to define two words based on the context of the comments?

I gather that a "fin" is flush with the exterior of the window and slightly too big to fit through the hole made for the body of the window. As such, it is an installation aid. Water getting behind the fin may well get inside the wall, unless the body of the window is sealed to another surface that is water-tight to the exterior of the wall (I'm still not sure _how_ that is done).

A "flange" is not flush with the front of the window and may leave some of the window frame proud of the surface to which the flange is nailed. The flange is integral to the window and hence any water in front of the flange will remain outside the wall. Flashing makes sure that any water is kept in front of the flange.

Have I defined flange and fin correctly?

Yes, we cannot be sure that the old frames had flanges or that the frames will be re-useable (i.e., easy to integrate into new construction).

I'll have to do the demolition on one window to see what's there.

Thank you for the vigorous discussion. All of the possibilities raised convey useful information to me.

I'll be sure to post follow-ups. But continue to share your ideas in the meantime.

Thanks,

Tom


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

*reply to HomeSealed*

HomeSealed,

Here is the picture as I understand it.

The old frame has a flange (we think) but it is embedded in (or behind) the stucco. We will be removing the stucco

The new exterior will include 7/16 OSB, with house wrap over it. The old frame needs to be flush with the surface of the OSB, so it needs to be removed and reinstalled.

If I leave the existing frame in place, it will be behind the OSB and water in front of its flange will contact the OSB.

I have not done this before and am echoing the guidance that I am getting.


tom


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

*to CopperClad*

I checked with Anlin - can't install a flange.

Tom


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

see if reading post 5 helps


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Millions of windows have been installed and not leaked that did not have nailing flanges.

I still see guys working today with felt and would bet you and arm and a leg their installs won't leak before the new construction crap going up with graco on it.

Nailing flanges are a valuable tool if used right but they are not a 100% requirement.

If the old windows were frame jumped and you are replacing the stucco, you will ideally need bigger windows to install to the RO.

Most newer replacement do have an accessory groove as AG said that can accept a clip in flange.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

tom31415926 said:


> I checked with Anlin - can't install a flange.
> 
> Tom


Do they have a groove on the exterior edge of the window? If so, you can put a flange on them.


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Pretty sad.. But I actually sold Anlin windows for several months. They are only a replacement window manufacturer. They either have a block frame. Or they have a rather large fin that covers the old frame and comes tight to the stucco/siding or whatever they have on the exterior of their home.


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

*drip cap and installation order*

I had thought about something like this (post #5).

I'm going to re-side with hardiboard. I could still extend some sort of z-bar over the top of the window. It would go under the housewrap and any additional flashing, then over the top of the window. It would be visible and should be white to match the window fin. It would have to be installed after the OSB but before the concrete siding. 

Here's an issue. In new construction, I think the window is installed after the OSB and the housewrap, but before the siding.

For retro-fit windows, in order to maximize the overlap of the fin and the siding, the windows could be installed after the siding. 

So I guess I have a choice to make . . .

Tom


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

:wackoh..my..God


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## tom31415926 (Jul 24, 2010)

> oh..my..God


I gather I said something wrong?



I know that the normal way to install a window in new construction is to install it on the OSB and housewrap, and cut a flap of housewrap to go over the nailing flange at the top of the window, etc. 

Maybe my comment about installing the window after the siding was out-of-order. (Ideally the wall is water-tight before the siding is installed). 
But replacement windows are made for applications where the siding (be it stucco or panel) is not removed, and the window is simply pushed into the hole with sealant all around it. Not the best system, I guess, but it is done.

If I did install the windows after the OSB and housewrap, but before the siding, I'd have to make the opening in the siding as large as the fin on the window, which is larger than the body of the window. An exception would be where the window spans a vertical seam and I can (carefully) slide the panel behind the window fin from each side.

feedback?

Tom


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## CopperClad (Jun 22, 2012)

Tom. I think Anlin makes a tremendous replacement window. Ideally for your application a new construction window would be best. But as someone already stated you have what you have and you need to work with it. It really seems like you have a clear understanding on what needs to happen to make it work. There's numerous ways it can be done. Right? Wrong? In the end as long as you don't have any water infiltration then all is well. Good luck in which ever way you choose. :thumbsup:


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