# Cardboard Crown Moulding



## rosco

tonight we got crown moulding for a room we are slowly refinishing. instead of wood, the moulding is cardboard. 

It is hard to saw and i can't get a nice cut and only get shaggy broken cuts. it seems this stuff will swell with moisture and warp quickly.

first question, why can't i find wood crown moulding at Home Depot? 

Second, won't this crap warp out of shape and fall off the nails?


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## Just Bill

That is hardboard(masonite) molding, and it works fine if not in a bathroom or steam room. It requires a good sharp carbide blade, and the dust is very fine, gets up the nose easily. It does sometimes bulge around nail heads, which may need to be sanded. And they also have wood molding, right next to the hardboard, available is clear unfinished or preprimed fingerjoint


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## bjbatlanta

Yep, every HD I've been in carries wood and MDF (medium density fiberboard). Bill is dead on that a sharp blade is necessary for MDF. I generally pay the extra few cents a foot for wood trim...


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## rosco

Okay. Thanks! 

the hardboard cuts like cardboard when using a regular "saw." hopefully this will be the last project for a while. i'm thinking to rent a miter saw (w/ a carbide blade). 

if you get a chance, i posted a thread about putting this crown moulding up onto a "gap." no kidding. there is brick below and plywood on top. there are 2"x6" running on top of the plywood. how in the world am i going to put this section of crown noulding up? i'd rather not use Mastic adhesive. i guess i'll have to get some really long nails and go diagonally upward. i considered putting 2"x4" in the gap, but access there is blocked off (an atrocious job by roofers years ago. they actually left the framework of the older smaller roof inside the now larger and higher roof. and i can't cut it out as they've used it as a frame for the new roof). maybe one masonry screw w/ a washer every 5' to hold it up while i nail diagonally and apply silicone to glue it in place. this is pay back for using a handyman to do a job that requires a professional.  i wasn't here soooooo


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## rosco

bjbatlanta said:


> Yep, every HD I've been in carries wood and MDF (medium density fiberboard). Bill is dead on that a sharp blade is necessary for MDF. I generally pay the extra few cents a foot for wood trim...


i'm thinking the same thing. return this hardboard and get wood. :yes:


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## bjbatlanta

If this is outside woodwork, I wouldn't use MDF at all. As Bill said, it is not meant for wet/humid areas.
Sounds like you need to rip a 2"x4" on a 45 and somehow attach in the gap between the two roofs to nail your crown to. A picture would help....


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## rosco

our home depot doesn't sell moulding this wide ~6"+ in wood. so we are stuck with the "hardboard." 

we bought a slide compound miter saw but can't figure out how to tweek the Bevel adjustments to get at least a 0^o and 45^o angle cut. :huh: but we'll figure that out soon. 

i guess the photo i tried to post didn't catch. here is one from the bottom:






...


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## Thurman

"rosco" - -Depending on how much crown you may have already installed in this room: With this large gap at the top, get innovative. Try using more than one piece of crown, or other trim boards to create a design unique to your room. Even a piece of 1x4, or 1x6 laid against the wall with some type of trim attached can look nice. Go to HD, or Lowe's and lay trim on the floor to see what you can come up with. I see this done almost every day, even by custom trim carpenters with homeowners present to show them what can be done. David


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## bjbatlanta

Thurman's suggestion is a good one. I actually did that in my living room, around my (brick) fireplace surround. I took a piece of regular 3-1/4" base and put it upside down on the brick with a few tap-cons so when the crown (I used 2-1/2") was up there was about 1-1/4' reveal of the base showing below the crown. The screws are hidden. This gave an added "profile" as well as covering the gap between the brick and ceiling. I only used the base around the fireplace, using just the regular 2-1/2" crown around the rest of the room. (I prefer the 2-1/2" on 8' ceilings, some like wider.) It kind of accents the fireplace and isn't too "busy" for the rest of the room. If necessary, the addition of another trim piece top and bottom could be used....


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## Gary in WA

Page #170:
 http://books.google.com/books?id=CzpAD6kdgjgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=installing+crown+molding&hl=en&ei=x3QeTJazEKC2nAfflaDnAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=installing%20crown%20molding&f=false


http://www.google.com/search?q=inst...t&sa=X&ei=v3QeTNL1DtGKnQe_oNnnAw&ved=0CBUQpwU

Be safe, Gary


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## rosco

Thurman said:


> "rosco" - -Depending on how much crown you may have already installed in this room: With this large gap at the top, get innovative. Try using more than one piece of crown, or other trim boards to create a design unique to your room. Even a piece of 1x4, or 1x6 laid against the wall with some type of trim attached can look nice. Go to HD, or Lowe's and lay trim on the floor to see what you can come up with. I see this done almost every day, even by custom trim carpenters with homeowners present to show them what can be done. David


 
You are sent from the heavens! Thank you for bringing me outside of the "box." 

to make sure i'm on the same page - i could use masonry screws w/ a washer to hold a board up agains the brick. this would provide a backing to nail the hardboard moulding up. it would be easiest to use a 1x4. to fill in the gap below, i'd use a piece of corner trim (the trim that is about 1" wide and is used everywhere in homes).



bjbatlanta said:


> Thurman's suggestion is a good one. I actually did that in my living room, around my (brick) fireplace surround. I took a piece of regular 3-1/4" base and put it upside down on the brick with a few tap-cons so when the crown (I used 2-1/2") was up there was about 1-1/4' reveal of the base showing below the crown. The screws are hidden. This gave an added "profile" as well as covering the gap between the brick and ceiling. I only used the base around the fireplace, using just the regular 2-1/2" crown around the rest of the room. (I prefer the 2-1/2" on 8' ceilings, some like wider.) It kind of accents the fireplace and isn't too "busy" for the rest of the room. If necessary, the addition of another trim piece top and bottom could be used....


not sure i'm following. is it possible you post a photo of this or PM one to me? THX!



GBR in WA said:


> Page #170:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Cz...#v=onepage&q=installing crown molding&f=false
> 
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=inst...t&sa=X&ei=v3QeTNL1DtGKnQe_oNnnAw&ved=0CBUQpwU
> 
> Be safe, Gary


WOOOOOWWWWW! the first link is a book with photos of some amazzzzzzing trim work. I'm trying to fathom the amount of work and $ .....


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## rosco

*is this the idea?*

here is a photo of what i'm thinking is suggested:








the moulding is 4 5/8". 

here is another shot but i'd have to place a triangular cut board in back to hold it. that would be an expensive piece or sections of wood. here is a photo of that. along with the section below needing to be covered with corner trim:







by the way, does anyone know which side of that crown moulding is the top side?


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## Thurman

You are getting close now, I would use a wider board behind the crown so it would leave more reveal. The crown looks to be correct as to "UP", but the spring angle needs to be set. By using a wider board, secured to the brick as suggested before, you _could_ nail the crown to the board with the nails also entering the space just above the bricks. With the extra reveal of the wider board you would have room to add some 1/4 round, or shoe mold, or anything which suits your taste. We're not talking major monies here either, and as stated-you may only need to dress out the fireplace itself to prevent overkill in the room. Good Luck, David


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## jomama45

I thnk the suggestion here is to use a piece of base moulding first under your crown. It's actually a fairly common practice in finish carpentry that I've seen, as it gives far more dimension & "mass" to the crown, w/o havign to spend huge amounts on massive crown. Here's a pic of what I (& BJB & Thurman I believe) are talking about:


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## rosco

i think that is what BJB did with his chimney brick but i'm pretty sure that Thurman was speaking of using lumber as backing. i've no idea how one would put the lower base into brick and if it could be, i'd have to use nails that are a 1/4" or less in length?


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## Thurman

Using a good grade of dimensional lumber, or the base as shown, has been used by me and others in my area. I think the bottom line here is the homeowner has to decide what "look" he/she wants. As I stated earlier, I have seen homeowners and professional trim carpenters placing trim on the floor of supply houses to see what they can come up with. Sometimes this gets rather interesting as someone else walks by and adds their two cents worth, which may or may not be good. One small piece of trim can change the appearance of an entire room. David


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## bjbatlanta

That's what I did except I only needed the base on the bottom to cover the gap. I use a few dabs of adhesive and a couple of TapCons to hold the base in place. I nailed into the ceiling joists on the top of the crown and 1-1/4" nails near the bottom, shot at an upward angle so as to not hit the brick....


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## rosco

*wider board and "reveal"*



Thurman said:


> You are getting close now, I would use a wider board behind the crown so it would leave more reveal. The crown looks to be correct as to "UP", but the spring angle needs to be set. By using a wider board, secured to the brick as suggested before, you _could_ nail the crown to the board with the nails also entering the space just above the bricks. With the extra reveal of the wider board you would have room to add some 1/4 round, or shoe mold, or anything which suits your taste. We're not talking major monies here either, and as stated-you may only need to dress out the fireplace itself to prevent overkill in the room. Good Luck, David


i'm a bit confused on many things here but want to start. i'll start with "wider board." do you mean thicker board when you wrote "wider board" or wide as in l*w*h (meaning i should look at using a 1x6?) 

if i bought an actual 1x4 board; anchored it to the brick w/ 2" tapcons (is this the right length tapcon?) - the crown moulding wouldn't cover the 1x4" i think, as in picture. this leads me to what "reveal" means. i think i should wait here for help before proceeding further. but i must ask, if i were to go the way of using shoe moulding as in the diagram, i'd anchor it to the brick using tapcons? then nail the crown moulding to that? this idea i like, but i've not figured out how i'd sink nails into such a thin piece of backing. i'm missing something, as usual


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## rosco

in the first photo, i'm using baseboard moulding (i'd substitute shoe moulding for both $ and elimination of grooves). the problem i see here are inability to use it as a backing to sink nails into at any angle.








here is a photo using baseboard on ceiling along with one on the brick (i'd substitute again with shoe moulding or 1/4" round moulding):






this would be cost prohibitive as it will be installed in several rooms. 

here is a photo using a 2x4 for better backing to sink nails into:







here is a photo of what it would look like if i used a 1x6:








i'm still stuck on what "reveal" means. i've googled it but the meaning still evades me


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## Willie T

rosco said:


> in the first photo, i'm using baseboard moulding (i'd substitute shoe moulding for both $ and elimination of grooves). the problem i see here are inability to use it as a backing to sink nails into at any angle.
> View attachment 22038
> 
> 
> here is a photo using baseboard on ceiling along with one on the brick (i'd substitute again with shoe moulding or 1/4" round moulding):
> View attachment 22039
> this would be cost prohibitive as it will be installed in several rooms.
> 
> here is a photo using a 2x4 for better backing to sink nails into:
> View attachment 22040
> 
> here is a photo of what it would look like if i used a 1x6:
> View attachment 22042
> 
> 
> i'm still stuck on what "reveal" means. i've googled it but the meaning still evades me


"Reveal" generally indicates the amount of material showing from underneath something or around a corner (such as where the wall edge turns to go back to the window (usually about 3" of 'reveal' there). Just a change of material or a turn. Larger turns such at a window are more often called "returns". Pretty much the same thing though.

Go look at your door trim edges. That little 3/16" strip of jamb edge showing alongside the casing trim is called 'reveal'.

It probably comes from "*revealing* a portion of something that's different." Using the bottom two photos where you have unfinished wood showing below (or alongside) the painted molding... In the top photo you have about 1/4" reveal (revealed)... in the lower photo you have about 2 1/2" reveal (revealed).


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## rosco

okay, i think i'm getting it. something like this?


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## drtbk4ever

I'm not an expert, but I would say no.

Have a look at the attached as an example.


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## drtbk4ever

Here is the same photo with the "reveals" identified.


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## rosco

right, that idea has been thrown out. my question is how in the world would i anchor the bottom of the crown to the lower piece of base? using 1/2" tack nails? regular nails (6d) would have to be at such an angle it'd splinter the wood like crazy. i'm really missing something here.

actually, if the crown moulding is ~1/2" thick (it is 5/8" thick in middle, not where i'll be nailing it) and the shoe moulding is 1/4" thick and i drove the nail at a 45^o angle, i'd have 1.4" to anchor a nail. i think my math is wrong. it has been many years. But, is this what everyone means?


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## rosco

i heard there are tiny nails that will go through the crown moulding and into the brick. diamond heads or something. these are small enough that they will not be noticeable in the crown moulding. 

has anyone heard of these? 

and how much would one expect to pay to have an area to cover 12 sheets of sheet rock w/ three vents and one fan to cut around? the sqft is roughly 260sqft.


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## drtbk4ever

Rosco, I am still a bit confused as to what you are trying to do. 

What I would do is attach a mdf 1X4 or a base moulding (like in the photo i posted) directly to the brick with some type of masonary fasteners. I would also put a similar piece on the ceiling. Then you would just brad nail the crown to the 1X4 top and bottom. This way you arent attaching the crown to the brick and the fasteners for the the 1X4 on the bricks will be hidden behind the crown moulding.


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## rosco

the original and present quest is to attach the piece of crown moulding at an angle against the brick to the ceiling. if possible, we'd not like to attach more pieces of moulding or lumbar to the brick wall. But at one time it seemed necessary. i know Home Depot has it displayed that one should use three pieces of moulding but we'd like to just stick the one piece up there. the 1x4 idea was cool. 

i learned there is a type of nail with a diamond head that can be used to anchor dry wall to brick. w/o any lumbar or further trim we will put the crown moulding up with these nails, bought from a contractor's store here in town. i've not seen them yet or tried them, but two people have said it will work. have you heard of these nails? what are they called? and do you know if holes must be drilled first? that be like a 1/64" bit or something from how these things have been described to me. 

i need to do alot to the ceiling before putting up the crown moulding. but when i do i'll shoot a photo of these nails up on this thread.

ps. i think they are some sort of diamond-tipped "flute masonry nail" but could be way off


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## drtbk4ever

OK, I understand. Definitely let us know how it goes.


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## jomama45

I didn't realize earlier that the ceiling is plywood. In this case, i'd simply make an "L" out of the 2 peices of crown by gluing & finish nailing them together on the floor first. This should be strong enough to hold the crown up w/o anchoring into the brick, just nail into the ceiling. A few dabs of glue between the brick & crown probably wouldn't hurt either.

As for the masonry nails, I can't think of any anchor or nail that would be easily concealed later. They're generally fairly substantially sized nails. The only thing that comes to mind it a "T nailer" that's used to fasten carpet tack strips down, but those nails maybe "ugly" as well, plus you'd have to get your hands on the air tool.


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## rosco

drtbk4ever said:


> OK, I understand. Definitely let us know how it goes.


Everyone in town has used them but no one sells them. someone sells them or no one would have used them or heard of them. apparently, they are used in a finishing or trim nail-gun. one must buy the gun i think. the contractor who would do it would simply pop-up the moulding with these nails after cutting it, but the contractor's $ is too much. 

Jomama, if it all possible, we'd like to only put up this piece of crown trim. if i can find this nail and a way to get it in w/o too much expense, it will just be the cutting (and i hear that is all backwards and difficult).


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## rosco

*back to this way*



bjbatlanta said:


> That's what I did except I only needed the base on the bottom to cover the gap. I use a few dabs of adhesive and a couple of TapCons to hold the base in place. I nailed into the ceiling joists on the top of the crown and 1-1/4" nails near the bottom, shot at an upward angle so as to not hit the brick....


BJ - 
we are back to considering this option, again. it just doesn't seem that 1 1/4" nails ... i don't think i can nail that good. heck, i'm still trying to nail the baseboard moulding in. i keep missing the studs (that the stud finder says are there). 
i hear a nail gun is the answer, but i think it best that i not use a nail gun. to buy that and a compressor plus the specialty nails is a lot for one project. but still ,,, considering the cost of the contractors who have bid on the job, i'd pay the same and end up with a nail gun and compressor :thumbup:. for what i don't know, but we'd have one. 
the more i do these home projects the more i realize why i was not allowed around tools as a child. 

i'm stymied


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## kwikfishron

All you have to do is find one stud or ceiling joist and pull layout from there. You know there’s a stud next to a electrical outlet, that’s a good place to start looking.

I run trim all the time and can’t remember the last time I used a stud finder. I think I have one though.

What BJB said for dealing with the brick “is the answer”. :yes:

Every DIY trim man need one of these. 

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Nail are cheap. :whistling2:


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## rosco

i think i'll spend tomorrow or the next reading a book on Crown moulding. i saw one at Lowes H.I. tonight and saw some have entire sections on using a slide compound miter saw. i still have yet to follow yoylitz's instructions to do this.


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## rosco

kwikfishron said:


> All you have to do is find one stud or ceiling joist and pull layout from there. You know there’s a stud next to a electrical outlet, that’s a good place to start looking.
> 
> I run trim all the time and can’t remember the last time I used a stud finder. I think I have one though.
> 
> What BJB said for dealing with the brick “is the answer”. :yes:
> 
> Every DIY trim man need one of these.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
> 
> Nail are cheap. :whistling2:



maybe i could rent that unit. i don't think i'll ever use one again. i can't find these nails in town anywhere and used tools on craigslist are almost at list price.


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