# gutting bathroom



## debiasio (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi - I'm gutting a full bathroom in my 1940s home. Been quite an experience so far. Mummified mice, old Chesterfield cigarette packs and me knicking a water supply line with my sawzall to name a few interesting things. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with only a couple. 

Heating - I had a 2 ft section of radiator in the corner of the bathroom. I've been thinking of something less intrusive to replace it with. I was thinking of replacing it with a couple sections of Slant Fin series 80, which would wrap around an inside corner. The bathroom is 6 x 4', not including tub space, which wouldn't require that much heat. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Electrical - I'm going to run a new 20A circuit that includes a GFCI outlet in this bathroom and also in our half bath downstairs. Is it OK to power bathroom lighting and the vent fan on this circuit? In one of the photos you can see an outlet for the adjacent bedroom. I assume it's not code to power this outlet on the bathroom circuit? The outlet is currently fed from the light/fan, but isn't grounded, so I was thinking of re-wiring that outlet so the bedroom has at least one grounded outlet.

Insulation - The exterior bathroom wall has insulation, but it is probably original. While the wall is open, should I just replace it? I also noticed remnants of insulation between the floor joists. Should I put insulation in between the joists?


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## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

Bet that was fun.........all mud tile, concrete floor. I did a late 40's bathrom couple of years ago, 9x6, took out 6200lbs of tile, plaster, cement.

Replace as much of the 1 1/2 or 2" galvanized drain as practical.

One 20A circuit required for the GFCI outlet, cannot power the lighting/fan. Use the old circuit for lighting, and run a new for outlet.

Tear out any old insulation, install full thick batts/rolls, and add plastic vapor barrier.


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## debiasio (Jun 28, 2010)

>>Bet that was fun.........all mud tile, concrete floor. I did a late 40's bathrom couple of years ago, 9x6, took out 6200lbs of tile, plaster, cement.

I couldn't believe how thick the mud was. They really built things to last back then. 


>>Tear out any old insulation, install full thick batts/rolls, and add plastic vapor barrier. 

Is there any need to put insulation between the floor joists?

>>One 20A circuit required for the GFCI outlet, cannot power the lighting/fan. Use the old circuit for lighting, and run a new for outlet.

I don't have enough breakers to have the GFCIs separated...so they'll need to be on the same circuit. I'll deal with the hair-dryer problem later, or maybe I'll have all boys :thumbup:

If anyone is familiar with connecting Slant-Fin baseboard to an existing steam supply, I'd appreciate some help. The guy at my local plumbing/heating supply store said it couldn't be done, but I thought Slant-Fin makes a model that hooks up to steam.


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## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

Insulation in the floor usually a waste of time, unless there is a crawl space under.

Not a heat pro, so can't help with that. There are modern radiators that can equal the output of an old cast iron, check with a plumbing supplier.

Check local electrical code for what is required. Even if you do it, it has to be inspected.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

I'd lose the Slant fin idea and put in a recessed convection radiator. If you want a baseboard heat, put in a cast iron baseboard unit. Something that will hold the heat. The other baseboard will cool off too quickly to keep the room warm.
If you need more breakers, put in a subpanel so you can properly run your electric. Doing it half assed makes no sense.
Ron


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## toddmanqa (Oct 31, 2008)

*Open Walls = Time for Upgrades*

You don't mention where you are located, but if it's somewhere cold, I would foam the walls.

You can buy a 200 cubic foam tank for about $280. That would be plenty to do the bathroom walls and celing to 3.5" and likely have some left over to put under the floor. No need for a vapor barrier afterwards. Note: Don't foam directly to a recessed light (if you are putting any in)--you have to leave some space for heat dissipation.

If you don't have enough room for two GFCIs, then you should probably have a new panel put in (probably $700 - $1000) if you already have 200 AMP panel.

20 AMP GFCI for the outlet (I don't know why girls have to use a hair dryer AND a curling iron at the same time, but whatever...)

Separate 15 AMP for the ceiling fan/light (which will avoid the annoying problem of the lights flickering when you turn on a device at the outlet).

Always run new wiring when remodeling an old house.

Have you considered radiant heat? Electrical is easiest, but wet could be an option.

Have considered replacing your old water lines with PEX? Old water lines usually have junk buildup that reduces water flow/pressure.

Finally, why not replace the cast iron drain lines with PVC? The drain lines are likely 60+ years old. Gonna break someday if not replaced.


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## Tangelo (Sep 13, 2010)

I agree with _toddmanqa_ for the Electric Radiant Heat. The coils come in a variety of sizes, and you can get a thermostat that will turn on and warm up the bathroom floor before get up in the morning--it doesn't make sense to use the Slant-fin type heating when Electric Radiant Heat will do so much more for you, i.e. save wall space, & no hot spots. When I was in England years ago, they even had heated towel bars, now that felt good on a chilly morning!


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## debiasio (Jun 28, 2010)

I live in Massachusetts. I've never heard of foaming walls. Is this significantly better than adding new fiberglass insulation?

I have a 100A panel and I am maxed out on breakers. Up until now I've been able to abandon wires in the wall (dead on both ends of course) and run new wiring. I have one breaker earmarked to run a new 20A circuit with two. 

Radiant heat sounds interesting but they require yet another dedicated circuit. I think I need to start thinking about a subpanel...is that a DIY project? 

The old sink had great water pressure, so I don't think I need to replace the supply lines. 

Do you mean replace the cast iron soil pipe all the way to the stack? Will think about that too. If it's not a DIY project, then I may have to pass, as money is a limiting factor.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

debiasio said:


> I live in Massachusetts. I've never heard of foaming walls. Is this significantly better than adding new fiberglass insulation?
> 
> I have a 100A panel and I am maxed out on breakers. Up until now I've been able to abandon wires in the wall (dead on both ends of course) and run new wiring. I have one breaker earmarked to run a new 20A circuit with two.
> 
> ...


Adding a subpanel can be DIY, if you know what you're doing, or know someone who knows what they're doing.
Good water pressure is not an indication the pipes need changing or do not need changing. It's their age.
Changing the iron pipes to pvc requires a hacksaw and a screwdriver and a careful touch when you get near the toilet.
All the things you want to avoid doing because of cost or experience will bite you in the ass in the long run. You'll end up tearing up the bathroom to get to the things you're now avoiding.
Ron


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## debiasio (Jun 28, 2010)

Do in-wall or baseboard heaters located in bathrooms need to be GFCI protected? The in-wall heater I am looking at says it has to be, but was thinking it was more CYA than following electrical code.


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

I was reading this post and just had to ask. I am no electrician but I am planning to remodel my bathroom and on this forum I was told one circuit was fine to run GFCI outlet, fan and lights as long as it is dedicated to just the bathroom and nothing else. I was told to Reference 210.11(C)(3), exception.

Is that not correct?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> I was reading this post and just had to ask. I am no electrician but I am planning to remodel my bathroom and on this forum I was told one circuit was fine to run GFCI outlet, fan and lights as long as it is dedicated to just the bathroom and nothing else. I was told to Reference 210.11(C)(3), exception.
> 
> Is that not correct?


I always run 2 circuits to the bathroom. If the GFCI trips the outlet, I don't want the bathroon to go dark.
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> I always run 2 circuits to the bathroom. If the GFCI trips the outlet, I don't want the bathroon to go dark.
> Ron


 
But it is not required by code correct? Especially in a small bathroom. Why not run the lights first then the GFCI outlet so if the GFCI trips the lights stay on?


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## gilbo125 (Jan 18, 2011)

Can't you just go to the gfci outlet first, just have a big enough box to pigtail of the line to the outlet?!?!?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> But it is not required by code correct? Especially in a small bathroom. Why not run the lights first then the GFCI outlet so if the GFCI trips the lights stay on?


No, it's not required by code. I just do it that way. I can run a 12-3 just as easily as a 12-2. I put the whole bath on GFCI's. The lights and fan are on a GFCI breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI. 
Ron


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## gilbo125 (Jan 18, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> No, it's not required by code. I just do it that way. I can run a 12-3 just as easily as a 12-2. I put the whole bath on GFCI's. The lights and fan are on a GFCI breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI.
> Ron


I plan on doing something similiar so I am just asking for some clarification. The 12-3 is wired into two single poles at the breaker or a double?


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> No, it's not required by code. I just do it that way. I can run a 12-3 just as easily as a 12-2. I put the whole bath on GFCI's. The lights and fan are on a GFCI breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI.
> Ron


 
thanks! Wated to make sure. Just reading through these response made me wonder why people are suggesting to replace the entire panel or put in a subpanel when it is acceptable by code to run one dedicated circuit for the entire bathroom...


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

gilbo125 said:


> I plan on doing something similiar so I am just asking for some clarification. The 12-3 is wired into two single poles at the breaker or a double?


If you put in a GFCI breaker it would be 2 single pole breakers. If the lights and fan were not GFCI protected, you could put in a single tandem breaker.
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> If you put in a GFCI breaker it would be 2 single pole breakers. If the lights and fan were not GFCI protected, you could put in a single tandem breaker.
> Ron


 
Wasn't your reference to the 12/3 wire to continue the power form the lights to the GFCI recept I mentioned. Just to continue the power from the lights...

So 12/2 from the panel to the light switch, 12/3 to the light, 12/2 to the GFCI and then 12/2 downstream....


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> Wasn't your reference to the 12/3 wire to continue the power form the lights to the GFCI recept I mentioned. Just to continue the power from the lights...
> 
> So 12/2 from the panel to the light switch, 12/3 to the light, 12/2 to the GFCI and then 12/2 downstream....


You can wire it a number of ways. It all depends on how you set up the electrical. You can have a light over the sink with a switch. You can have general lighting in the ceiling and shower. The fan you get could have 3 switches(light, night light and fan) just for that. Or you could separate the fan controller to a timer.
But if you run a 12-3, you put it on 2 separate breakers.
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> You can wire it a number of ways. It all depends on how you set up the electrical. You can have a light over the sink with a switch. You can have general lighting in the ceiling and shower. The fan you get could have 3 switches(light, night light and fan) just for that. Or you could separate the fan controller to a timer.
> But if you run a 12-3, you put it on 2 separate breakers.
> Ron


 
Back to my original question then 
If you run 12/3 it has to be on 2 breakers by code or no? 
Rhetorical question - Is it legal by code to run 12/2 to vanity switch, then 12/3 to vanity light, 12/2 on to GFCI outlet, 12/2 to shower light and fan.


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## RMCarner (Mar 23, 2009)

Ron6519 said:


> No, it's not required by code. I just do it that way. I can run a 12-3 just as easily as a 12-2. I put the whole bath on GFCI's. The lights and fan are on a GFCI breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI.
> Ron


There is not many situations where you need to put lights on the Line Side of a GFCI. Let's say it's dark outside and for some reason you trip the GFCI. Maybe a short in the hair dryer - whatever. You don't want the lights to go out! I just did a complete gut of a bath and kitchen and whenever I found occasion to take travelers up to lights from a GFCI, I attached them to the Load Side. That way the lights stay on even if you trip the GFCI.

Whoops. On my first cup of coffee. Meant to write... Attach travelers to lights from Line Side. The LOAD terminals of course are always connected to any down-stream receptacles that need to be ground-fault protected.


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

RMCarner said:


> There is not many situations where you need to put lights on the Line Side of a GFCI. Let's say it's dark outside and for some reason you trip the GFCI. Maybe a short in the hair dryer - whatever. You don't want the lights to go out! I just did a complete gut of a bath and kitchen and whenever I found occasion to take travelers up to lights from a GFCI, I attached them to the Load Side. That way the lights stay on even if you trip the GFCI.
> 
> Whoops. On my first cup of coffee. Meant to write... Attach travelers to lights from Line Side. The LOAD terminals of course are always connected to any down-stream receptacles that need to be ground-fault protected.


So would this be the proper way to wire that setup?
Run 12/2 to vanity switch, then 12/3 to vanity light, 12/2 on to GFCI outlet, 12/2 to shower light and fan.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> So would this be the proper way to wire that setup?
> Run 12/2 to vanity switch, then 12/3 to vanity light, 12/2 on to GFCI outlet, 12/2 to shower light and fan.


I don't understand this at all. You need to decide the setup first before you decide on a wiring sequence. And if you want guidance, you need to tell us what that setup is.
You need to specify the fan you chose and what controllers you're using.
Is it a 3 use fan(light,night light and fan). A simple fan with a switch(or timer)
Are you having 2 banks of switches? General lighting and fan by the door and outlet and sink light on the wall by the sink?
When you start the electrical work, you're past the, "big picture" and need to deal in the details.
In this 2 bank set up, I would run the 12-3 to the outlet/sink switch bank and a 12-2 from the outlet bank to feed the general lighting/fan bank. From those banks you would feed the light over the sink and the fan/general lighting units.
If you want a different setup, let us know.
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> I don't understand this at all. You need to decide the setup first before you decide on a wiring sequence. And if you want guidance, you need to tell us what that setup is.
> You need to specify the fan you chose and what controllers you're using.
> Is it a 3 use fan(light,night light and fan). A simple fan with a switch(or timer)
> Are you having 2 banks of switches? General lighting and fan by the door and outlet and sink light on the wall by the sink?
> ...


Setup in Bathroom is GFCI outlet, 3 switches- 1 for the vanity light, 1 for the shower light and 1 for the fan. Just a basic on/off for the fan. So my question being -Running a 1 20Amp ciruit in the bathroom - these are the 2 setups I was thinking of doing:

Setup 1:
Run 12/2 wire from the panel to the vanity light switch, 12/3 to the light and pigtailed to 12/2 to the GFCI line side. 12/2 Load side to switches for fan and shower light. And 12/2 from each switch for the fan and shower to the fan and light.

Setup 2:
Run the 12/2 wire from the panel to the GFCI outlet pigtail to the line side to keep the vanity light on the line side. Line side -12/2 to the vanity light and then to vanity switch. Load side -12/2 to fan and shower switch and then 12/2 to shower light and fan

From what I understand each setup is permissable to do but would one be recommended over the other?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Setup is still not clear. Is the outlet separate, over the sink? Are the 3 switches in the same bank, using a triple box, by the door?
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> Setup is still not clear. Is the outlet separate, over the sink? Are the 3 switches in the same bank, using a triple box, by the door?
> Ron


 
Outlet is seperate and over the sink. 3 switches by door in same bank.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> Outlet is seperate and over the sink. 3 switches by door in same bank.


Run the 12-2 to either the switch bank or the outlet.
Run the 12-2 line to the other location to power it up.
Branch off to fans an lights as needed.
Since the bath light and shower light are on 2 separate switches, you can feed the first light with a 12-3 and continue to the shower light with a 12-2 Instead of running 2 separate lines of 12-2. If you don't have the 12-3 handy, the other way will work. 
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> Run the 12-2 to either the switch bank or the outlet.
> Run the 12-2 line to the other location to power it up.
> Branch off to fans an lights as needed.
> Since the bath light and shower light are on 2 separate switches, you can feed the first light with a 12-3 and continue to the shower light with a 12-2 Instead of running 2 separate lines of 12-2. If you don't have the 12-3 handy, the other way will work.
> Ron


Should I even bother keeping the vanity on the line side of the GFCI? the easiest would be to just run the line to the GFCI and then to the switch bank and go from there.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

zephed666 said:


> Should I even bother keeping the vanity on the line side of the GFCI? the easiest would be to just run the line to the GFCI and then to the switch bank and go from there.


I don't know exactly what you mean by, "Should I even bother keeping the vanity on the line side of the GFCI?"
Are you speaking about the light over the vanity? All the lines going to lights and fans would go out of the triple switch bank. The only wire(12-2) that goes to the vanity wall is the line to the GFCI from the switch bank.
Ron


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## zephed666 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ron6519 said:


> I don't know exactly what you mean by, "Should I even bother keeping the vanity on the line side of the GFCI?"
> Are you speaking about the light over the vanity? All the lines going to lights and fans would go out of the triple switch bank. The only wire(12-2) that goes to the vanity wall is the line to the GFCI from the switch bank.
> Ron


I am saying that the fan and shower light need to be GFCI protected. Not the vanity. Vanity can be on the line side of the GFCI (so not to be in the dark if it trips) and the fan and shower light on the load side so they are protected by the GFCI.

So what I said previously:
Run the 12/2 wire from the panel to the GFCI outlet pigtail to the line side to keep the vanity light on the line side. Line side -12/2 to the vanity light and then to vanity switch. Load side -12/2 to fan and shower switch and then 12/2 to shower light and fan (separate lines from switch)


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