# CO detector/monitor placement ?



## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

CO is lighter but just barely
some might tell you to raise it 
(if it has a digital readout technically it might go at eye level)
I'm going to say put another up high on ceiling or wall...
if your house is long/cut up; maybe another on opposite side of house

but definitely put a monitor in your bedroom up high because 
that is where the greatest potential is to go to sleep & not wake up 

Edit: sometime fire department will provide/install new monitor(s)

Peace


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

I've been told CO is approximately neutrally buoyant so like the rest of the 
gases/air it's movement is dominated by convection and blower fan(s). 
Avoiding corners where air will pocket is the main thing I see mattering.


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

The sketch below is my homes layout. Do you all think with where just the one CO is located, will it be adequate for all 3 BR's, as their doors stay open all the time at night ? It is the digital readout detector with highest CO PPM memory recall.


----------



## ChuckF. (Aug 25, 2013)

There's confusion on this with the public because so often they confuse CO and CO2. CO2 is much heavier than air, CO doesn't differ in weight enough with the O2/N2 mixture that is 'air' to separate to any significant degree.


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Greg, what is your concern?
Is the furnace vented out a chimney?
Is that fireplace also vented out a chimney?
Is your crawlspace ventilated to the outside?

Bud


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

CO pretty much mixes well with the air.

You should have an alarm on the same level as the bedrooms so it's audible and every floor with combustion appliances.

What most don't know, is the alarms only go off at harmful levels of c0, 70ppm, and not for a few hours unless the level is really high. 

For better protection, you need something with a digital display that starts reading right away at 30ppm (ul won't allow them to display lower) and allows you to check for peak level below that.

For optimal protection, you need a co monitor, not a ul approved alarm which will report any level above 0.


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

Bud9051 said:


> Greg, what is your concern?
> Is the furnace vented out a chimney?
> Is that fireplace also vented out a chimney?
> Is your crawlspace ventilated to the outside?
> ...


Greg, what is your concern? My concern is with the age of the furnace, it could develop a heat exchanger crack any month or year now, and we would never know it. I guess a person needs to just trust the "flame roll out safety switch" on their furnace to shut down a cracked HE. :smile: I just like a back up plan I guess. 


Is the furnace vented out a chimney? No, it is a 15 y.o. gas fired horizontal flow 95% Eff. unit that vents out of the CS to daylight with a 2 inch PVC pipe. . 

Is that fireplace also vented out a chimney? It has a manual gas log set in it. Just open the "in wall " gas cock, light the logs, and flames up. I crack the FP damper open about 2 inches when we run the logs, which is only during a *furnace has died*...back up heat system for us. 

Is your crawlspace ventilated to the outside? No foundation wall perimeter vents as I had to close them off just to grade the soil up around the foundation to get the water to drain away from it, rather than to it. I have 4 -3" x 16" soffit vents cut in to the sides of the CS bulkhead type door so the CS can get some air.

Thanks, Greg


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

user_12345a said:


> CO pretty much mixes well with the air.
> 
> You should have an alarm on the same level as the bedrooms so it's audible and every floor with combustion appliances.
> 
> ...


I do have the CO monitor. It has the digital display showing the present CO levels in PPM, and has the most current highest levels of CO recorded...in memory recall to pull up if curious.


To do a "live" test on it one day, I plugged it in to one of my one car garage outlets not long ago. With the CO unit being 23 ft. back away from the garage door, as I opened the garage door and drove my car in, it alarmed before I got my car half way under the open garage door.


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Certainly nothing wrong with installing CO detectors but relying on them to compensate for another problem would not be good. Co detectors aren't as sensitive as we might like.

No high risk activities other than someone forgetting to open the damper on that fireplace. A wood stove would quickly tell you there is a problem but a gas unit gives no indication and a malfunctioning burner could be producing lots of CO.

You probably cook with gas as well and most of those combustion byproducts become part of the air we breathe. Be sure to use the kitchen exhaust fan when using the stove it's not just for cooking odors.

Thanks for answering the questions.

As for your question, CO will mix with normal convection plus you have a forced hot air heating system so lots of movement. Advice given from others is good.

Bud


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Cracked heat exchangers don't directly leak out co, they run under negative pressure so extra air gets pulled in.

The issue is interference with combustion, leading to higher than normal co and risk of flame rollout, exhaust being pushed out the burner openings - fire risk.

Don't rely on a co alarm to detect a cracked heat exchanger, it needs to be inspected for cracks, corrosion and popped eyelets (if crimped clamshell type) regularly.

Can have messed up combustion and excessive co being produced, but being vented outside; if it's windy enough the co won't enter the house.


----------



## ScottK1 (Sep 14, 2017)

I asked on my local city's Facebook page, when they posted a Informational post about putting up CO Detectors.

Here is their response:

CO typically stays near the floor. The best places to have them is knee level. We like to tell people to buy the digital read out, plug-in / battery back-up CO detector, separate from smoke detectors. That way they can be plugged in and stay at the appropriate level near the floor. If people choose to buy combination smoke/CO detectors they need to be at ceiling level. Fire Chief, Rick Steinhaus


----------



## ChuckF. (Aug 25, 2013)

ScottK1 said:


> I asked on my local city's Facebook page, when they posted a Informational post about putting up CO Detectors.
> 
> Here is their response:
> 
> CO typically stays near the floor. The best places to have them is knee level. We like to tell people to buy the digital read out, plug-in / battery back-up CO detector, separate from smoke detectors. That way they can be plugged in and stay at the appropriate level near the floor. If people choose to buy combination smoke/CO detectors they need to be at ceiling level. Fire Chief, Rick Steinhaus


He is wrong.


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

ChuckF. said:


> He is wrong.


 I guess you know that when a person tells a Fire Chief they are wrong, they have to post legitimate sources to prove they are wrong. :smile:


----------



## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

both answers are correct, technically... 
it all depends on the source of CO & if heat is mixed into the equation... 
in your example with a 90+ furnace under floor, 
the CO would originate at floor level without a heat factor involved
same as CO from car exhaust (due to very little residual heat in fumes)...

but if your fumes are originating from your gas logs or water heater, 
a definite heat factor is mixed with the CO causing it to rise...
that said, most CO fumes sources do occur with a HEAT FACTOR...
causing the CO GAS TO RISE TOWARD CEILING...

but in you context, with your 90+ furnace & a worse case furnace 
functioning but with a separated/disconnected exhaust inside the CS, 
the exhaust fan could eventually pump/Fill cooled CO into crawl & 
eventually up through flooring therefore 
a more sensitive/readable monitor near floor (like you have) makes sense...

I personally would prefer a second monitor (as a backup redundancy) 
in my bedroom where I sleep that also has readout sensitivity... 
height level dictated by manufacturer; 
but if broad height range is allowed, 
I would place another sensitive monitor
where it could be read from in bed & while standing up - 
therefore no more than 3-4 ft off floor *for you situation*
& I would still place another monitor up high in between FP & BR 
if you ever consider using your FP truly as backup heating source...
Monitors should be replaced at least every 10 yrs & are cheap insurance
yes nothing replaces needed/scheduled maintenance 
but things are missed & *stuff* happens... 

Peace


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

While reading the replies here, I cannot help to recall back when we were living in Lexington Ky. A 4 member young family all, died from CO poisoning. They lived in a split foyer home with the two car garage attached that sits under the upper bedrooms.


Apparently though the heyday of getting groceries unloaded etc, regardless, some major distraction occurred and the family car was left running in the garage and they went to bed that night. 

No Co monitors were in the home, as this happened back before the public information/education push of homes needing smoke detectors and CO monitors came about. Too sad.. :sad:


----------



## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

Gregsoldtruck79 said:


> While reading the replies here, I cannot help to recall back when we were living in Lexington Ky. A 4 member young family all, died from CO poisoning. They lived in a split foyer home with the two car garage attached that sits under the upper bedrooms.
> 
> 
> Apparently though the heyday of getting groceries unloaded etc, regardless, some major distraction occurred and the family car was left running in the garage and they went to bed that night.
> ...


Sigh - worst case I ever remember was 3 deaths 
(less than 2 months apart) in same hotel room

*stuff* happens & then there is criminal...

https://carbonmonoxide.com/tag/boone
2013 - 3 deaths from 2 different incidences
fire department didn't even check for CO 1st time
& ME didnt expedite tests for COD of 1st 2 dead 
(but still got results back a week before 3rd death)
room still allowed to be rented in meantime
no permit/inspection for pool heater install
no CO detector in hotel room although a
different contractor did erroneously install 
combustible gas detectors instead of CO monitors
when installing gas logs into rooms with FPs

Kind of makes you wonder what & who to trust

Peace (of mind ?)


----------



## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

We lose a few every year here in Maine. My dates might not be correct but I think it was last year the snow blocked the exhaust on a pvc exhaust. It should have shut down but didn't. Then a year of so before that it was a camper with several people running a ventless heater inside. Often the news never follows up to point a finger at CO as the cause but the details are obvious.

Beyond the fatalities are many health related issues that go for years or are never diagnosed as low level CO poisoning. And low level detection is one area that CO detectors don't do well in. I shutter every time we get a poster here who rants about defending ventless gas heaters.

Bud


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

fire fighter associations lobbied against having co alarms being allow to go off at low levels.

In the 1990s the alarms used to have a low level warning before full blown alarm.

If they go off below 70 ppm, unless the exposure is like a month, they fail the test.


----------



## CodeMatters (Aug 16, 2017)

Rooms over garages are cold and at greater risk from CO. 
Put the kid you don't like in there. :brows:


----------



## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

Another view to add to the confusion:

http://www.s-tech.ca/gas/index.htm

OP -you say you 'tested' your detector in the garage. You might want to check with the manufacturer. I recall - but cannot cite - that detectors exposed to high levels should be replaced.


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

CodeMatters said:


> Rooms over garages are cold and at greater risk from CO.
> Put the kid you don't like in there. :brows:


nah - kids don't have life insurance.


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

user_12345a said:


> nah - kids don't have life insurance.



I just got a letter in the mail yesterday offering me life insurance coverage for kids or grandkids. For just pennies a day they said.

Now that I saw on the news where some of these teens out here are popping Tide detergent pods in to their mouth and drinking the contents, hmmmm... may not be a bad idea for one to profit from stupidity. J/K yall.


----------



## CrazyGuy (Nov 18, 2017)

lenaitch said:


> Another view to add to the confusion:
> 
> http://www.s-tech.ca/gas/index.htm
> 
> OP -you say you 'tested' your detector in the garage. You might want to check with the manufacturer. I recall - but cannot cite - that detectors exposed to high levels should be replaced.


Yes, this is true, high levels are bad on equipment. They make test kits to test carbon monoxide meters/detectors. It comes with a glass vial of carbon monoxide and a plastic baggie with a tie. you put your meter/detector in the baggie with the vial of carbon monoxide, tie the bag tight, then break the vial to let the CO out of it. They are hard to find, but found one here on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Heuck-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-Test-Kit-Home-Gas-Safety-FREE-U-S-SHIPPING-/253156139633?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

should be okay as you as it's not put right at the end of exhaust pipe.


----------



## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

follow-up actions to 3 dead from CO poisoning in 2013

http://www.wataugademocrat.com/news...cle_5d4a2ac4-f50a-11e5-a470-5fc2f57d100a.html

ironically just heard on TV that the CEO of guilty corporation is now filing suit against town of Boone... go figure

Peace


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

The way the prosecution went after everyone that even had knowledge of the installation of the pool heater, will now turn the building/fire safety/NFPA codes up a notch I bet. 

Where I worked as the maintenance manager 12 years ago, they did a huge renovation in the"hospitality" facility. Every piece of mechanical equipment HVAC/plumbing/electrical was installed new. It had a state of the art fire alarm system, fire sprinkler, and a "Smart" control system for all the HVAC systems. 

And it had a new, large mechanical room in its basement. In the MR, it had 3- 120 gallon natural gas fired water heaters and two large gas fired " Turbo" style 250,000 BTU boilers for the facilities hydronic heat pumps. Vent pipes from these units were everywhere hanging down from the MR ceiling on their way out to be terminated to exterior vent caps. 

Not one carbon monoxide station was installed or required to be, in that mechanical room anywhere. If the architect/mechanical engineer's or the local AHJ had required it, they would have been installed by either the electrical contractor or the FA contractor. And most likely the CO monitors would have been wired in to the FA system for instant " trouble or supervisory problems" notification of a high CO alarm. 24/7/365 

So it looks like now every* states building and fire code boards*, had better sharpen their design/regulatory pencils. The prosecutors on this case, have set a *precedent* by throwing out a WIDE net of blame on to any hands ....touching that pool heater project OR in the decision making process of its installation. 

So basically now...every architect, engineer, property owner, board of directors, contractor or maintenance person that has had "hands on" or even administrative duties, related to a piece of equipment with the potential to emit dangerous levels of CO, ...have been put up as fresh meat for the next attorney... handling a CO poisoning case. JMO


----------



## DR P (Dec 16, 2017)

Amen Greg; makes *this* one wonder about those businesses & companies that are more focused on their production/profit than safety in general - or that *worst* employee we've all had to deal with ... I use to label them as "knows just enough to be dangerous"...

Maybe I never paid close enough attention before but - 
Never heard of a corporation being found guilty of a crime...
Go Figure

Peace


----------



## Gregsoldtruck79 (Dec 21, 2017)

True Doc, 


And you and I have worked in the trades long enough to know, when the semi or annual budgets/capital expenditure meetings are held, the "maintenance" budget is over shadowed immediately by the other directors needs...that want the monies spent on what is "seen" or used by the customer/guest. Not on CO monitors, hidden heating pipes, drains or electrical wires. 


Deferred maintenance is always a problem with any facility and the maintenance director, the contractors hired, all the way down to the maintenance staff, while having to deal with smaller operating budgets.

And the ONLY way to change this, is for the state AHJ to step in and implement CO protection rules. I do not feel for one millisecond, that this maintenance guy on the pool heater case had ANY intentions of anyone ever being harmed from that pool heater. 

I feel sure the thought never entered his mind about CO and how it could get in the building. I have never met one contractor or maintenance man in 45 years, that gave me the impression they never cared about the safety of others from their handiwork. 

Just like I did not think of dangerous levels of CO being in the facility I maintained. Why ? Because a whole boat load of architects, engineers, state and local inspector's with a world of $$$ education pertaining to building codes and safety, knew how to keep a buildings occupants safe. And all inspections were passed and a COO granted on my facilties renovation by the AHJ.

Who was I, with my tool pouch and high school education, to even mention facility wide CO monitoring ? Most likely if I had done so, I would have been vocally shut down or my hand slapped by the general manager/Board of Directors. JMO


----------



## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> Just like I did not think of dangerous levels of CO being in the facility I maintained. Why ? Because a whole boat load of architects, engineers, state and local inspector's with a world of $$$ education pertaining to building codes and safety, knew how to keep a buildings occupants safe. And all inspections were passed and a COO granted on my facilties renovation by the AHJ.
> 
> Who was I, with my tool pouch and high school education, to even mention facility wide CO monitoring ? Most likely if I had done so, I would have been vocally shut down or my hand slapped by the general manager/Board of Directors. JMO


Just shows, people can not rely on experts for anything, especially safety, they're in it for themselves. 

Not on any level.

Even if a government says you need co alarms, the standards are so poor once the alarms go off you've been poisoned.

People need to get educated, do their own research, make sure the work is being done right and advocate for themselves or be screwed.

Doesn't matter how much education the professional has; the professional will forget and move on to the next job/client, the client or customer gets stuck with the impact, possibly for life.

I have zero faith in professionals in our messed up failing civilization, they've screwed up enough things to never be trusted.


----------



## Flashover (Jan 1, 2017)

Just my 2 cents...CO detectors should be the digital readout variety, plug in with battery backup. Keep the directions as they help you understand what levels are dangerous. Put them in sleeping areas...when you are awake, you will feel the symptoms. CO is heavier than air and will sink. Putting them by fuel burning appliances may cause unwanted false alarms. Local laws may have requirements as to quantity and location, and yes, some jurisdictions offer free alarms, but usually not the more expensive digital readout variety. They should be replaced every 5-7 years.


----------

