# Does your job require a permit?



## Mike Swearingen

Projects not done to local code with the appropriate permits and inspections can jeopardize the sale of your home. The lender may deny the buyers' loan, and/or a buyer may not accept anything not to code.
Electrical code violations are not only hazardous, they may cause your Homeowner's insurer to deny a fire claim if found to be the cause. 
Plumbing code violations may cause function problems or leaks. Water is the primary source of damage to homes.
Structural code violations are even worse. These will cause even more problems.
If you're going to do it at all, do it to code with all of the proper permits and inspections, and keep the records.
Good Luck!
Mike


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## meiersenterprises

Additionally, you can be fined big time! My neighbor got caught building a room addition and got an $1800 fine. That's STEEP. Get those permits...


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## housedocs

Man $1800 is pretty steep for a unpermited residential addition. What part of the country are you in?


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## abond

*sos. help needed*

SOS, somebody help me please, I need your advise about “evil door”. I live in apartment on the second floor above the side entrance and entrance to the basement, which has laundry inside. The problem is the doors that slam so hard that I can fill vibrating walls and loud annoying noise. It is really TERRIBLE. The doors are metals and very heavy. They should be always locked because the building located in the busiest area of Queens, New York. Somebody, please help me!!!!!! I need your advice how I can bring the doors in normal conditions. By the way, the super of the building is not able to fix, even he tried so many times. The landlord will take a lifetime to take care of it. In other words, WELCOME TO NEW YORK. Lovely handy men, please give me a hint or at least some suggestions that will bring peace in my life. Anna. 

THANK YOU A LOT.


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## Guy

I might also add when changing/expanding the footprint of you home it is sometimes wise to consult a surveyor and have an asbuilt done. My neighbor fighting now where an addition he built on some years ago is too close to property line and the lender will not fund to the new purchaser.


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## Teetorbilt

An addition can often trigger a property reassement as my sister recently found out. Her taxes tripled.


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## penaddict

*Deck*

Does adding a deck up your property tax as this isn't "livable space?" Thanks.


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## the man

*Deck*

Penna
in N. Y. S. your assessment will go up, if you put a roof on the deck it goes up a little more, screen it in --up again, enclose it with windows up again-- an open deck you can use it 4-5 monthe, enclose
the deck you can use it all year


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## depotdon

I just signed up and want to post NEW THREAD, but cant figure how. Yes, I am more computer illiterate than construction savy


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## fhivinylwindows

depotdin, go back one page, then look in the lower left side.....when you click on that you can start a new one.....just make sure that it is in the correct category or they will relocate it.


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## theshark58

You should always pull permits when required. It is better for everyone. If a contractor says for you not to pull one, for example, on a new roof, then walk away.
Some mfr warranties will be void if permits are not pulled, and in case of additions, bath remodels, etc you will need them when you sell.

Mike
http://www.thetradesjournal.com


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## sootybuttercup

Electrical code violations are not only hazardous said:


> My insurer told me that any damage from DIY project (whether done right or wrong) was covered by my policy...provided I didn't cause any of the damage intentionally. Best to ask your insurance company how it works for you!


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## KUIPORNG

Doing right or wrong is a separate issue with having a permit or not, you can do it right but without a permit or vice versa... the question to ask the insurance broker should really be "If I built somthing which required a permit which I didn't obtained, such as basement..etc.. if there is an accident caused by this new built with evidence, will the insurance company cover the lost" an example, if a 6 feet high deck was built, which requires a permit, but you didn't obtain one, should one of your friend broke his leg and sue you because you didn't setup the rail according to code... would the insurance paid for the compensation...etc....


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## MrNoMaintenance

If you get away with only an $1800 fine, consider yourself lucky! They could (in addition to the fine) make you rip it out and start again --- Not very convenient when you’re trying to sell your house. Another thing to consider is if the potential buyer has a thorough lawyer, that digs deep with the city, permit offices, etc. looking for things like old (forgotten) easements or permits [lack of]. The buyer could use that information to get you to lower your selling price OR tip off the city...


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## Tommy Plumb

Even easier then going to that website is to get the number for your local building department or whoever is in charge of issuing permits and ask if you need one. 

It's supriseing what things you need permits for (changeing a window for example) and what you don't need permits for. I can finish my basement includeing remodeling an existing bathroom without a permit due to some grandfather clause in the local building codes.


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## kevjob

your local building dept should have a list available for when a permit is required and when a job is not required to have a permit pulled.


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## always something

*permit concerns!*

I totally understand the concept of permits and as to why they are required and in place, But from what i have seen in my own house when contractors have performed repairs e.g. roofing and a fireplace liner,both to which i was very unhappy with the workmanship, and when consulting the building inspector,he in turn asked advice from the 
contractors........What the... maybe it is just my area, but i sure have lost confidience..


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## AtlanticWBConst.

always something said:


> I totally understand the concept of permits and as to why they are required and in place, But from what i have seen in my own house when contractors have performed repairs e.g. roofing and a fireplace liner,both to which i was very unhappy with the workmanship, and when consulting the building inspector,he in turn asked advice from the
> contractors........What the... maybe it is just my area, but i sure have lost confidience..


 
I am sorry to hear that.....this is always going to be the case from time to time....

There are VERY, VERY knowledgable, cautious, personable, professional, and educated building inspectors....but, it seems for every 10 of these, there are sadly some that should not be in the position that they are in....

Sorry to hear about your experience...


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## always something

*I am sorry to hear that.....this is always going to be the case from time to time....*

Thankyou for your response :thumbup: i totally agree.

I seriously think that those good ones need to be rewarded.


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## elementx440

does tree removal require a permit?


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## AtlanticWBConst.

elementx440 said:


> does tree removal require a permit?


It shouldn't...but if there are certain unusual circumstances (i.e. - over neighbor's yard, near roadway, near powerlines, etc...)
I would check with your town to see what additional requirements they may want.


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## HAASEMAN2003

May not need a permit but also certain home owner covenants need approval and will cost you $ if you don’t.


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## beer_geek

elementx440 said:


> does tree removal require a permit?


 
In some places, it does. IIRC, in Cobb County, GA, you're not supposed to cut down a tree that's greater than 6" in diameter without permission.


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## mikemy6

may need a markout


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## elementx440

just an update...

did the trees a few weeks ago, needed no permit from my rural little city...


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## trptman

Only one in ten inspectors are bad? I think the number is much higher. The most annoying thing are inspectors who don't even know what is in various codes. They essentially make crap up as they go along it would seem. Then you have to fight with them to prove they are wrong which then hacks them off, causing them to try and nitpick even more, which causes them......oh well , you get the idea. I'm not jaded about inpectors or anything.
My favorite line I heard from a plumber once about the inspector that had just given us a hard time about something (I don't even remember what any more) that turned out to be nothing , was 
"There goes the inspector, Last year he could'nt spell it, now he IS it".
Maybe you had to be there and had to know the plumber, but I always thought that was funny.
My area isn't even super controlling with permits and the like. I can't even imagine trying to do work somewhere like Florida where I've heard you almost need a permit to sweep off your front porch.

People wouldn't try to avoid inspectors and permits as much if perhaps the building officials could be counted on to know what they are talking about.


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## KUIPORNG

I think inspector's personality is as important as inspector's knowledge... I come across an inspector whose personality is no good... give us hard time... sometimes we need to correct thing is not a problem... but the way they say when it is humuniating matters...


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## Georg

elementx440 said:


> does tree removal require a permit?


alkways depends on circumstances. Always check with your town first to be on the safe side.


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## moneymgmt

Our town here in Michigan has 6 "Code Enforcement Agents" on the payroll. I've met 3 of them, all have been complete idiots. Their job is to drive around all day and catch people doing things that require a permit. 2 years ago I had new windows installed, they drove up like the place was on fire. She jumped out, demanded all work be ceased (my old windows were out but the new ones not in yet) and started to write me up. I told to get her boss on the phone, I wanted to talk to the city inspector. 2 hours later the work crew is picking their noses sitting around scared for their jobs when the inspector calls back. News flash: so long as the structure is not being altered new windows don't require a permit. You better believe the city had a letter from me come Monday morning questioning why my tax dollars are paying the salaries of complete morons who do not even know the codes they are paid to enforce.

Last year I gutted my kitchen down to the studs. New wiring, plumbing, cabinets, lighting, the whole nine yards..... a bed sheet over the windows is a nice way to avoid needed $500 worth of permits. I'm not saying they aren't necessary because every Tom, ************, and Harry out there shouldn't be doing significant home improvements, but around here its more of a business to the city than a prevention tool.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

moneymgmt said:


> Our town here in Michigan has 6 "Code Enforcement Agents" on the payroll. I've met 3 of them, all have been complete idiots. Their job is to drive around all day and catch people doing things that require a permit. 2 years ago I had new windows installed, they drove up like the place was on fire. She jumped out, demanded all work be ceased (my old windows were out but the new ones not in yet) and started to write me up. I told to get her boss on the phone, I wanted to talk to the city inspector. 2 hours later the work crew is picking their noses sitting around scared for their jobs when the inspector calls back. News flash: so long as the structure is not being altered new windows don't require a permit. You better believe the city had a letter from me come Monday morning questioning why my tax dollars are paying the salaries of complete morons who do not even know the codes they are paid to enforce.
> 
> Last year I gutted my kitchen down to the studs. New wiring, plumbing, cabinets, lighting, the whole nine yards..... a bed sheet over the windows is a nice way to avoid needed $500 worth of permits. I'm not saying they aren't necessary because every Tom, ************, and Harry out there shouldn't be doing significant home improvements, but around here its more of a business to the city than a prevention tool.


Regarding your claim: That's too bad you had to go through that. And my condolences, if, (as you allege) there are 3 inspectors that you have disagreed with, in your town ..... 

Please be aware that in all the towns that we have worked in over the years in 3 states, we have not found anything remotely similar to the one situation that you claim to have gone through. (If that had happened to us, we would have laughed, taken out a copy of code requirements and kept working. You're ignorance of the codes caused your delays and the situation.)

We have a copy of the state building codes on all jobs that we do (it is required by law). We also have State issued ''sheets'' that show what is required and what is not required to have a permit for. 


Regarding Permits, I know that you stated:


moneymgmt said:


> .....I'm not saying they aren't necessary .....


I must say, that I still don't agree that (due to the experience that you claim you went thru) this would ever equate to a valid reason not to follow building code laws and the obtaining of all required permits in any Town, City or Jurisdiction.


And this point:


moneymgmt said:


> .....but around here its more of a business to the city than a prevention tool.


Doesn't matter.....do you NOT pay your property taxes simply because you feel that they are too high? The law is the law. If you don't like it, run for office and change it. If you choose to break the law, please don't come on this site and brag about it, as if to encourage members to do the same.


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## moneymgmt

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> If that had happened to us, we would have laughed, taken out a copy of code requirements and kept working. You're ignorance of the codes caused your delays and the situation.
> 
> I must say, that I still don't agree that (due to the experience that you claim you went thru) this equates to a valid reason not to follow building code laws and obtaining required permits, in general....
> 
> FWIW-We've never had issues with Town building departments in the manner that you claim to have experienced.


 
Geez Atlantic, take it easy... "I allege to have happened...."??? Yes, I CLAIM it happened. (248) 546-2365 That's the number for code enforcement, give them a call at your leisure and keep telling me you know more about the situation and the city workers than I do. I bought 13 windows from a very reputable company, little did I know that they only make the windows and then contract out the installations. So no, the installation crew did not have a permit on hand.... they didn't need to. I fail to see how my ignorance escalated the situation further than a code enforcement agent who didn't have the codes on hand. Its not my job to do your job.

I completely agree with you about codes; precisely nowhere did I say code laws should _not_ be followed. That is rediculous. I said, permits are not necessary in all cases. Following the codes and pulling permits are two different things. I'd venture to say that not all the contractors on this site pull every last legal permit when working on their own homes.


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## HAASEMAN2003

*My 2 cents*

I have remodeled 2 homes now that had some blackout creative remodels done to them. On both I wondered how these places where still standing. I know there are times that I would like to strangle the inspectors the county sends out. It is more of a difference of opinion and less of their intelligence. I to am sorry that you have had this experience with inspectors but I agree with Atlantic whole heartedly that in the end to have the inspection is best. 
Just the opinion of a DIY guy


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## moneymgmt

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Doesn't matter.....do you NOT pay your property taxes simply because you feel that they are too high? The law is the law. If you don't like it, run for office and change it.


Sit back a minute and relax, You keep editing your post like an unfinished novel. I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law. And for the record, I AGREE with my property taxes, that's why I live where I do. You shouldn't assume everyone complains about property taxes.


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## Gerry Kiernan

Why would anyone watch daytime soaps with this going on. Actually it is good to hear both sides.I agree with both. Permits are a pain, but in the long haul they are essential, and sometimes the inspectors are even knowledgeable enough to make good sound recommendations to the homeowner.

Gerry


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## KUIPORNG

The real only thing I don't like about permit is "it has a permanent negative effect to your already very high property tax"... other than that.. I only see positive... the one time fee is well justify with all the questions/advices you can ask the department/inspector....

but the raise in property tax due to increase in property value is going to stay with the home you own for generations or people who is buying your house....


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## Cuc Tu

around here, we need a permit for just about anything, such as repairing a deck over 30" high, or touching any building over 120 sqft.

I was thinking about re-roofing my detached garage, but the permit would cost more than the materials.

"
*When is a Building Permit Required?*
A building permit must be obtained before you erect, construct, enlarge, alter, move, repair, improve, convert, or demolish any building or structure, including decks over 30 inches high, patio covers, sheds over 120 square feet, fences over 6 feet high, and retaining walls."

I thought there was a provision to allow repairs, such as roof repairs, but I guess not.


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## Gerry Kiernan

I agree about the tax thing, but if you ever had a total loss, ie fire, you might have some difficulty establishing the replacement value if all the paper work isn't there. In my neck of the woods the values, as far as tax purposes are concerned, are established by a combination of what the local properties are selling for, and what improvements have been made. Sometimes you just get caught up in what is happening with the real estate market. Up here it is currently smokin' right along at unheard of price increases.

Gerry


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## 747

Where i live a permit is only required if your changing something structual on remodeling.


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## Gerry Kiernan

To me that makes sense. Some jurisdictions want to control every little detail of your day to day.

Gerry


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## AtlanticWBConst.

747 said:


> Where i live a permit is only required if your changing something structual on remodeling.


You might want to check your local inspectional or State code services again about the ''specifics''. 

Jurisdictions are now getting very particular about their wording regarding what has to have a permit and what does not. 
It is usually much more precise than simply: "If you are changing something structural on remodeling".


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## phxcanes

Does anyone have any suggestions for a diy patio cover?


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## Gerry Kiernan

probably the safest bet is to ask your local municipal/city building department . They will likely want to know what type of cover you have in mind.

Gerry


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## AtlanticWBConst.

phxcanes said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions for a diy patio cover?


Any particular reason why this question was posted in the permit requirement thread? Are you concerned about codes in regards to this?

FWIW - Have you considered a simple portable canopy system like these types:

http://www.nextag.com/portable-canopy/search-html

Not quite a DIY system, but inexpensive never the less. You wouldn't be able to leave them up all the time due to the possibility of heavy winds or storms, but that is the case with large expensive awnings as well....


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## Dan101

747 said:


> Where i live a permit is only required if your changing something structual on remodeling.


That's great. But I would prefer to live and work somewhere where the permit requirements are a little more specific. When I was younger, I may have completed a few jobs without pulling all permits but now I realize there are lots of good reasons to work with permits.


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## Cement Man

Around here we call 'Dig Safe' whenever we are going to be doing any digging.
My advise about permits? Get one and be safe knowing it was done the right way. If you ever plan to sell your house the 'house inspectors' for the buyer or the bank may just ask to see all of the permits you got. 
Also without a permit your insurance may not cover you if something happens.


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## Jeekinz

Browsing through the thread, there are some very good points. This may have been said already, but this is where I stand:

Permits are good for safety and proper building. But what I can't stand is what I have to pay for them. I recently had my HVAC replaced and had to downgrade because the permits (HVAC, electrical, smoke) put me over budget. And to top it off, I failed for smoke detectors. I have lived there for 2 years and didn't change a thing in regards to the detectors. I guess the person issuing the C.O. missed something.

Second, the town I live in needs to know every single detail you want to do. Do you believe you need a permit to replace more than 4 boards on a stockade fence? WTF is THAT?


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## concretemasonry

*Does you job require a permit?*

The permit is to protect you, you from yourself and any future owners. There is no question that permits provide better construction and resale in terms of solid value.

It makes sense for the person doing the building pay for the permit rather than penalizing others that are not causing the added administrative and inspection costs. - Someone has to pay, so why not the person causing the costs? or are you a charity case?

The amount and controls of when permits are required are usually locally established and administered. If they are not reasonable, the only way to do it is to complain locally (your town) to the people that set the fees and requirements. - No on else will do it for you.


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## Jeekinz

The point was, if there were no charge for permits, people may apply for them more often. I'm sorry but, $750 for 3 township workers to come to my house and say "OK" is a little ridiculous.


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## scsimmons

*What needs to be submitted with permit application?*

I'm considering finishing my basement (already studded and bathroom roughed-in). Exactly what do I need to submit with my permit application? I will still need to run electrical, do some minor framing, plumbing and have someone install an HVAC system. Thanks in advance.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

scsimmons said:


> I'm considering finishing my basement (already studded and bathroom roughed-in). Exactly what do I need to submit with my permit application? I will still need to run electrical, do some minor framing, plumbing and have someone install an HVAC system. Thanks in advance.


Ask your local Town Inspectional Office. They can tell you exactly *what they require* for you to submit.


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## sleepy23

this is actually a pretty entertaining thread to hear about different experiences and different ppls thoughts. My thoughts will get me flamed but they are this:
permits are basically to keep stupid ppl in line. someone with half a brain can usually make the decisions outlined by a permit.
as for me, I havent checked permits to see what is or inst required, but for instance, building non-load bearing walls in my basement to finish a room..i am not going to waste my time pulling and paying for a permit. A major addition..yes , but minor stuff, i like the guys incident of putting a sheet over the window.


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## KUIPORNG

I think one of the main reason from the point of view of the goveronment to requires owner to have permit, besides safty, is to be able to tax you more... 

got a visit from the assessment office asking how large is my baseemnt and whether there is a bathroom, she said she will put that in the book... I hope I won't get a big surprise when I receive my next tax bill...


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## concretemasonry

With a permit also comes proof that it was done properly when you go to sell the house.

The permit also gives you a free inspector to protect you from yourself and what you think you know, but really don't know.


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## sleepy23

well the inspector that surveyed the houses i bought and then when i sold my first one never asked me or the previous owners for permits for anything. however, i dont think we are exactly what you would call real strict around here.

and do you really have to tell the tax accessor anything? I figure if they are going to charge you more, dont make it easy for them.


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## buffalonymann

Whenever your local officials err in administering the laws, you serve them with a notice of intent to sue. Then you proceed to sue them for their negligence, willful or not. This is how we keep the inept out of our governments


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## AtlanticWBConst.

sleepy23 said:


> well the inspector that surveyed the houses i bought and then when i sold my first one never asked me or the previous owners for permits for anything. however, i dont think we are exactly what you would call real strict around here.
> 
> and do you really have to tell the tax accessor anything? I figure if they are going to charge you more, dont make it easy for them.


If by "Inspector", you are refering to the local building inspector; They generally won't check with the Home Owner or propert owner regarding whether a permit was pulled. All they have to do is check their own department records, and that tells them all they need to know....


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## Simbabluenobi

Hi. Newbee here.
I've been working in an outbuilding doing walls and such. As long as it is still considered an outbuilding there is quite a bit more you can do without a permit. I checked the laws and codes for my state and am following them as much as I can ... After I do the inside wall and floor coverings and possibly add a ceiling to the rafters plus regrade the dirt around the building and repair and paint the siding and everything inside and out I'm going to pull a permit to have electricity put in. The way I read it is that all plumbing and electric work needs a permit. Here in my State you can even repair or add to a roof as long as you don't remove the sheathing and don't go over three roof layers. I would like to be able to use this *agricultural* structure to sell 2nd hand goods out of SO when I call about the electric Permit I will ask about what I need to do for change of usage which also requires a permit. At that time the structure should look pretty clean and spiffy and it is secure but to have the inspector come out and take a look could possibly save someone's life IF he found something not quite right. Supposedly, not there yet, If something cannot be brought to code EXACTLY for whatever reason ... IF the way it was done (or could be done) will be structurally safe and sound then it will pass. But, that would be the inspector's call.... Hopefully I get a friendly, forward thinking one who wants to keep the reasoning of the codes (to be safe) and helps to overcome any restrictions there may be which prevents or makes very difficult being able to follow all codes to the letter. From my understanding, Inspectors will work with you at times even if it means varying from the strict letter of the codes. Course I don't want anyone to get hurt and I don't want to have to rip it all down either so when I have my agricultural coded structure ready for Prime Time I will call for an inspection and permit for change of usage and take it from there with my fingers crossed. We'll see.


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## schnizzzle

Hello all,

First post because I both love and hate this discussion. What to do? I did a basement finish on my first home a few years ago and being my first significant project I bought all the permits, had all the inspections, and lived comfortably in my new space, but upon completion, I was feeling confused about the permit and inspection process. I thought, "this will keep me safe if I do something wrong". They'll point out bad things, suggest new ideas or even compliment the work. I was even nervous before each inspection, thinking I was going to fail something. But each inspector after the other came into the newly built space, looked around for a minute or two, put an approved sticker on the wall with their signature on it and left. They didn't check jack****. I say to them, "so that's it", and they say "looks good". Uhhhh, I was pissed and relieved I guess. I must have done something good, I thought, but they didn't even look at anything up close. How could they tell? So in the end, I payed close to $500 in permits for what. So the city knows I added more taxable value to my home....uhh, yeah, that's it. It left a bad taste in my mouth about the process. If I have an opportunity to build another basement, which I might, I don't know if I would pull permits this time. Maybe some of you will talk me into it. Make me believe it is worth my time and extra money. Perhaps some of you will help me decide to go on without the permits. I am interested to hear the debate continue at any rate because it is so divided. Thx all.


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## Amber

In lovely San Francisco you cannot even change your water heater without a permit. What baffles me about the city is that they consider it a historical area so you can only change the windows on the face of the building with like windows. What the city has failed to do is define (for the permit process) what a wood window is for these areas. They want no cladding and other details. We are fighting the permit department currently because with their guidelines currently set there are no windows available that fit their description. What are apartment building owners/ and homeowners to do? Sadley until the system is fixed alot of them are doing the jobs without permits at a large cost to the city for revenue they could be producing from the permits.


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## KUIPORNG

I think permit is for minimum standard... so inspector only check for minimum standard... minimum standard does not include thing like if your stud is straight or banded...etc... they don't care cosmetic... they only concern the minimum/obvious fault... so that is why inspection are quick to them... they only want to see if you miss for example the plastic sheet for insulation..etc... if you had it... they don't give a damn on how straight nice you put it up...etc.


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## anileater

*taxachusetts*

I do not have as much an issue with permits that I have with inspectors
I should be allowed to pull my own permits and have the work inspected for code,instead my options are to hire an overpriced licensed installer or do the work illegally. Why can't the inspector inspect my work? Does this have more to do with unions than safety!!!!
Denver has a system where you can get tested in order to be allowed to do your own work,while this is a nuisance it does favor both government and homeowner,everything gets done properly and legally


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## Simbabluenobi

*Live or let die*

I bought our place here which had two sheds already built next to eachother. One is a 10X13 and newer and the other is 30X12 which is older but standing just fine. The older structure has overspanned 2X4 rafters at 24"OC supporting a Light metal roof. However, I would like to Repair sister and replace some of those rafters for safety reasons. In fact I'd like to add more rafters to bring them to 12"OC plus repair and sister. Living in Oregon the winters are mostly rain BUT things change and they are weather/climate wise. I would like the roof to be able to sustain the heavier snows when they come our way BUT due to the noncompliance issue in the codes I am not allowed to pull a permit to repair those rafters or make the roof stronger as that would increase the longevity of that structure and thereby increase the length of time of the noncompliance issue. That wall can be made fireproof and the small area between those two buildings can also be blocked off with fireproof material which would make the noncompliance issue for fire reasons nonexistent BUT apparently they'd rather allow disrepair to cause the thing to fall into an unsafe situation where it would need to be tore down. This is a waste of wood and energy and everythingelse to just allow the building to go to H*ll as opposed to just letting the permit be granted so it can be safely and legally repaired and brought to code and live and serve a useful purpose. But they'd rather let it fall down. Stupid in my opinion.


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## rariti

This is my first post.
I am wanting to finish my garage (adding drywall).
The detached garage dimensions are 18'x18', and currently uses 2"x4" joists (48"oc), and has two runs of enclosed wires outside the studs. 
I am no licensed contractor, but the existing work looks pretty solid (wires are tied in nicely, run along top plates and enclosed, etc).

So, my plan is too: 
- move 2 wires within the wall (tied in overhead from house, pipe enclosed)
- adding 2x6 joists (16"oc) across 18ft spans (following existing rafter count).
- insulate, 1/2" drywall, and paint.

Moving the two wires, is where the permit comes in.
Here in San Bernardino, CA the city tells me I would need a permit and 3 inspections and pay someone to design the layout. Each inspection will cost roughly 150-200 plus the permit.

I already have the materials, except for the 2x6.
The city has informed me that doing this with permits will cost roughly 700-800 bucks. The 2x6's will cost me less that 80 bucks. 

It would be nice to do a project the correct way, with a permit, but the costs just doesn't justify it. 
I just don't think it makes much sense. 80 bucks vs a possible 800 is crazy.
Even if I had the purchase the drywall, the cost would not be over 300. 
What gets me is the price for such a thing. And to pay someone to design a wiring layout? All it takes is drill a few wholes, run the wires, close it up.

I am a pretty handy guy, I do alot of research before tackling DYI projects around the house, or fixing/making furniture.

This is San Bernardino, CA, and not the most nicest part of it. Where most people rent their homes, I take pride in owning, and making efforts to improve my home, which in turn improves the neighborhood.

I just don't think, its very encouraging to do this type of improvement with such a steep permit. 

The other issue is, IF the existing detached garage didn't have a permit, when it was built (long before we bought it), apparently that is a deemed a special inspection and can run me another 550 bucks.

Doing with a permit can end up being well over a thousand bucks.

I am leaning towards just doing it to code.
My neighbors are pretty cool, I doubt they would turn me in.

Can anyone see my point here? Am I alone on this?
Am I better off getting one?


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## schnizzzle

rariti,

I am in the same boat as you. Asking this forum of DIY'ers and professionals to explain their own opinion on why I should or shouldn't pull a permit to build. I personally feel very comfortable doing my own work to code without the inspector process. Like I said in my first post, I spent a ton of money pulling all necessary permits and in the end was left feeling like all I did was sign myself up on the "who can we tax more now that they've built something" list :huh:. I certainly didn't feel protected after the fact. I sold my home and nobody asked about the basement remodel or requested to see permits for the work done. But I had to go through the permit process the first time to understand it. Now I have an opinion on it. Doesn't mean I won't pull a permit on my next big project. Can't promise that I will either. I'm hoping I'll learn something from this forum on this topic. Good luck.


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## Simbabluenobi

*48"oc*

rariti
 That doesn't sound right. 2X4 joists running eighteen feet span at 48"OC is way over max load for 2X4s which is like only 12 feet at 24"OC. They must be supported somewhere by a wall or something? Are they ceiling or rafter joists? Not that it would matter if they were 48"OC they would still be way over max load and its lucky your garage is still standing.
If they are only 2X4s and they do span 18 feet and they are 48"OC and the garage *was* put up before you bought the place .... well, theres a GOOD Reason for pulling a permit. Or did I read the post wrong?


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## rariti

Thanks schnizzzle and simbabluenobi for your replies.

I figured I couldn't be the only one. I too am perfectly comfortable with my own work. 

As the the 48"oc, I failed to mention that there are 2x4 braces on top of the top plates as well, connecting adjacent walls. And to add, I will not be removing structure, but beefing it up. 

The issue again is the wiring.

I spoke to a county inspector, his feedback was great. The county offers free pre-alter inspections to give the homeowner recommendations for putting a plan in place. They only charge 77 dollars for two inspections (before and after closing it in). His said my plan was good and more than enough. He knew exactly what I was talking about. Most of the garages here in San Bernardino are built the same. My next door neighbor garage is identical structure-wise. As mentioned, before I do any projects, I do research (buy books, get contractor feedback, tivo DIY, look up codes, etc).

I was very excited to get it going, until I found out that my address falls into "city" jurisdiction.

So now, for me to do this with a permit, I have to go to city hall, look up laserfiche records to see if a permit exists for the detached garage. Even if I want a new permit for the finishing my garage, there will not grant me one, unless there was an existing permit for the original build. If no permit exists then I gotta pay 550 bucks for a special inspection. So worse case scenario, for me to simply move the wires within the walls this could end up costing me well over 1600 (old permit, new permits and design). 
When all I need to do is spend 80 bucks more.
So as it stands, I really don't see a reason to get one for simply moving wires into a wall to drywall the garage.

However, our other project, renovating the kitchen(next year) into more of a gourmet kitchen, I do see a justifiable reason for that. We are opening up the kitchen (removing a wall, putting in a header), and changing electrical, new cabinets, etc. That project is gonna be at least 10-15k (mostly cabinets, countertops and floor tiles). And the existing electrical is a mess. That will involve a contractor for the structure (header only) and electrician (tying into an updated panel only). Everything else, I can do.


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## Simbabluenobi

Hi
rariti 
The County inspector said no permit was needed to add rafters and Beef it up? But I thought the coding read something like Modification or alteration of rafters required structural permit? 
That FREE County advise from an inspector sounds interesting eventhough it comes with locked in fees for inspection afterwards .... 
Being up here and 18 minutes out of town might have more benefits than I realize. I DO plan to touch bases with them somehow after I get my (no permit needed) work done as I really would like to be able to fix (beef up) my rafters and roof in doing so.


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## rariti

Hi Simba,
The county indicated that the current garage meets minimum code. The permit is required because of the electrical (moving a wire into the wall). The beefing up I am doing is additive, doesn't remove existing structure. the 18ft spanned 2x4's 48"oc insn't adequate to hang drywall, due to the weight of the drywall and the 48"oc. He informed me that 2x6's 16"oc is more than adequate for drywall. The strength is in the 16"oc. The safety issue is preventing the drywall from falling on somebody.

When I initially spoke to him, he was stumped. Because as far as he knew, simply drywalling your garage doesn't need a permit, especially if the existing structure meets code. He consulted a couple of his senior inspectors, and they concurred... in SB county, as long as it meets minimum, adding joists won't need a permit.

The cheaper county permit would have been ideal for me at 77 bucks for 2 inspections. But of course mine is a city issue, which could result in well over a grand in permits, for simply moving wires into the wall.

So for those of you who live out of town, it might be worthwhile, to check if you fall into city or county jurisdiction. Apparently, here in cali anyways... county offices have more funding than city.


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## Simbabluenobi

*additive*

Hi rariti
Additive. hmmm not modifying structural as its additive.  If I think about that a bit I just might solve my Ceiling and rafter problems I have in my shed/barn by adding 2X6s. 
Good Luck
Beet


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## Simbabluenobi

Permits may have their place... but. In order for me to *legally* use my storage structure to store inventory, I have to apply for and be granted a change of use. I can use the structure to store tools and household stuff BUT if I want to keep anything related to my gift shop in it I have to pay for and be granted a permit with other *brought to code* requirements. This is pure gimmee your money beuracracy and it isn't right. The structure would still be used for storage in either case whether it be my personal stuff or my *soleproprietor business* inventory. Noone would go into the structure except myself and possibly wife in both cases but because I'd want to store that extra 2 dozen of whatever from my business in there they'd want permit and money and perhaps structural modifications. What the ** is the difference in what I store there as it is still all MY stuff. The Crap you get into when you try to follow their rules and play their game ... no wonder so many businesses I know of sidestep the permit process. I originally called about adding rafters so I could make the roof more structurally sound and insulate and I wanted to be all legal about it despite numerous people saying JUST DO IT. They make it hard for the little guys yet allow all sorts of variances and loopholes for the WalMarts of the world.


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## windowman

Here in my country, the local government seem so lax at permits and the jobs especially small ones like carpentry do not require to have permits, just a sort of a building permit for constructing little changes to the house or patio.

But usually, there is no need to get one especially if it's just some small bit of work required to finish it.


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## MaroonStangMan

Hi guys! First post and I'm sorry to say that it is a question about building permits and my lack of knowledge on such things.

I just recently bought my first home and one of the things that came up in the home inspection was water damage in the bathroom. I started tearing into it and it ended up being a lot worse than what I thought. The basement ceiling was "finished" with loosely hung foam-board so everything bad was hidden and not picked up in the inspection. We're talking floors rotted through and joists being damaged.

I have the money and decided to do a complete renovation of the bathroom, including moving two walls to make it larger and fix everything as I go. My problem is that I've never had ANY experience with building permits, even though I've worked for a contractor for many years. I was just never involved in the process and never understood what all they were required for. I've always thought permits were only for exterior additions or any changes made to your lot.

My question is how much trouble could I get in? I've already torn out some electrical work, plumbing and a wall and have just recently been learning about what permits are needed. Even the contractor that I worked for said NOTHING about needing permits for what I was doing. I feel like an idiot asking but I need to know what to do. Do I continue doing my work? Even if I'm very meticulous, which I always am, it sounds like I could get into a lot of trouble.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Maroon,

If you have started the process and are in the middle of this renovation, just go down to the local inspectional offices and tell them that a minor bathroom face-lift job, "grew" and that you would like to pull a permit before you go any further.
Believe it or not, it is very commonf for minor jobs or minor repairs to "grow" during their process. There are many times that we have had to run out and get a permit because a small project grew into something bigger, or rot/damage was found that required replacing large areas of a home's structure.

There is this inate "fear" of building inspectors due to "urban legend tale-horror stories" spread by 3rd parties or a few bad experiences by that a very small number of people have experienced. We have never had a bad experience in 22 years of pulling permits and getting inspections in many different towns. I've been quite "blown-away" by some of the very understanding experiences that we have seen or been part of, when dealing with inspectors and inspection offices.

That's my 2 cents.


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## MaroonStangMan

Thanks Atlantic! Your response is definitely appreciated. I've just started reading through these forums and it certainly sounds like your advice is very highly regarded! :thumbsup: 

The only thing I'm worried about now is that I found out through some coworkers that the township requires a licensed plumber to do any work.

This could get hairy and expensive beyond what I was hoping to spend or could afford as a new home owner. The previous owners did a lot of bad work and then covered it up. Once I took down the ceiling in the basement, there were loads of what I'm sure are code violations with electrical, plumbing and even structural. For crying out loud they had a spool of hot wire just rolled up in the wall that led to nothing!!! :furious: God knows what all the inspector will see or make me do.

Perhaps I will try to fix most of it before contacting them or I should have just waited until I was settled in.


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## hubbard53

was browsing through this thread and began wondering about basement finishing permits. What permits if any are required for work in the basement? I know it varies by locality but in general, does basement work (plumbing, electric, fraking) require permits since it is not liveable space?


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## KUIPORNG

In Toronto, you need two permits, one for general, one for electrical.

the general are those for mechanical, insulation, plumbing, framing...etc.etc.

I got my Tax assessment, my property value increase by 20,000 ... this seems reasonable to me.... even without the basement, the property value would have been gone up here in Toronto...


so base on that, the actual tax increase should be around $100 bucks per year... this seem to me a fair amount...

I will wait for my bill to see the actual increase which should arrive soon....


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## borninpa

If you are finishing your basement, you are making it into "livable space" so it requires a permit. Most people do not get one, but it is still required....


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## kevjob

here in denver to convert to legal space 

1. construction permit
2. electrical permit
3.hvac permit
4.plumbing permit

also for legal bedroom egress window is required and if there plans for clsoets in any room that will be considered a bedroom and needs an egress.


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## Leah Frances

Anyone dealt with MDIA (middle development inspection agency) for electrical permits? Thoughts? Recommendations?


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Pretty much all U.S. areas: You WILL need a building permit. Contact your local inspectional offices. More and more towns/cities are going online with their own sites for permits and requirement information and forms.


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## Knucklez

this is what gets me...

1) do you think all those people asking the electrical guy at home depot a question about some switch are next going to get a permit? 

2) i bet 99% of all homes out there have at least at some time in its history had work that required a permit but DIY'er didn't bother. i.e. in my area, even to add a light fixture requires a permit!

3) when was the last time someone bought a home and you asked "did you get a permit for ... " 

ok, perhaps item #3 does happen on occasion.. but in that situation, i would not be surprised if the seller said in response to that question "i am no longer interested in selling the house to you". 

any DIY'er should be well aware of the code for the project they are working on. this is to make sure it is safe for you and others. so this is worth your time/effort. 

the permit is too expensive and this is wrong. if the city were really concerned about the safety then they should make permits costs reasonable. also, in most cases your taxes go up, so they will make the money back on your renovation anyway, so the permit fee and inspection should be free! 

it is NOT reasonable to have a $100 materials project cost way more beacuse of need for a permit. this city process is broken in my opinion.

having said all that... i like to get permits because some jobs are scary. i want the reassurance that my plan is safe. for example, digging out a basement... or constructing a roof on a garage. 

Knucklez


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## terri_and_jj

Knucklez said:


> 3) when was the last time someone bought a home and you asked "did you get a permit for ... "
> 
> ok, perhaps item #3 does happen on occasion.. but in that situation, i would not be surprised if the seller said in response to that question "i am no longer interested in selling the house to you".


In many places, to sell your home you have to get a Certificate of Occupancy before anyone can buy it. To get this you go through an inspection, much like a regular home inspection, except its someone from the city doing the inspecting. if he sees improvements that were made since the last time the home was inspected, or things that simply look new, they check against permit records. if you did not get a permit, you have to get one, even if the work was done 5 years ago, you can't sell your home until the permit and inspection process is complete, and you are subject to fines.

bottom line, if your project is straightforward, or complex, get in the habit of checking your local codes. failing to get an expensive permit can cost you much more in the long run


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## justdon

"MY" problem with permits and such is ---in a rental situation,non owner occupied house-you are required to qualify as a contractor. THAT includes having a half or million dollar insurance policy that I am 'told' doesnt help you one iota if something you do goes haywire and a tenant gets hurt. As I understand it,it only covers somebody NOT suing the city for your neglegence. As I understand it it is VERY expensive and for a diy only occasional little project that requires a permit, like every other year or so gets REAL expensive as you cant take it out and drop it as projects go,,,you HAVE to keep it in force year after year!! Is anyone else familiar with this insurance portion,,,and do I have the correct info?? Thanks,,,interesting reading here-I agree with the 'concept' of public protection,also agree fees should be reasonable. Does evryone have this insurance reqirements in THEIR towns and cities???

Additional question,,,do permits expire?? Like a diy project that gets sidetracked and cant be completed till months or years later cause of lack of funds,,,OR illness etc??


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## justdon

Okay IF anyone has a clue,,,my daughter lives 100 miles away in city of Omaha Nebr. they have an old rotten deck on back of their house that is in need of replacing. Does 'replacing' a existing deck require a permit?? This deck is basicly ground level, No steps(Or railings) except for stepping OFF the deck onto the ground!!(thinking that is around 8" step down,,,easy at least) IF they call city I am sure that would trigger the alarms and descend the wrath of G-d on their head,,,just from caller id etc. As to taxes increasing,,,IF they are paying taxes on a rotten deck,wouldnt the taxes be same with a new deck??(I dont think tax assesors care wether a new or rotten deck for assessing purposes) usually when you get a permit for this as an example,,,your spending 2K for a new deck they think your value should be 2K more,,,I dont get it.(where did the current value of the existing deck go???) Thanks for ANY knowledge of decks go in Omaha. I think we will end up doing it as a family project!!(hopefully)


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## AtlanticWBConst.

I can't comment for the area. But, as a general rule you are supposed to pull a permit for any such deck demolition and new construction. People have been seriously injured, or even died, from deck collapses (decks not being built, or "re-built"....properly).


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## Allison1888

*Permits*

Also avoid any contractors who try to get you to allow them to work without permits. If they are cutting corners in that important area, what else will they do by cutting corners?


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## Knucklez

fully agreed with last poster.

if you are getting a contractor to do the work then you are paying through the nose anyway.. so might as well spring a couple of hundred more for the permits. this is your main legal recourse should your contractor screw the job up badly.

Knucklez


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## trptman

It is never good advice to tell someone, "don't bother with permits". It is possible to never have any problems but you always run the risk of a big headache down the road. 
There are a couple of things governments could do to encourage permits.
one is to have the costs of the permits in line with the scope of the project. If you have someone doing a 100 dollar repair, it is not surprising at all that they will choose to not double or triple the cost of the repair with a permit. They'll just skip it.
The other thing is that they really need better training for the code officials. In my town the building inspector and his secretary are, well, shall we say, not the brightest.

Example: I have rentals as part of my business and I had a new commercial tenant moving in once. Well, in my town the electric utility is city owned. When there is a change of service, they send out the bldg inspector and the fire inspector to check for "safety" before transferring utilities.
The buildings zoning allowed the use I was renting it out for. I knew this for 100% fact. They show up to do their safety inspection, he tells me they can't move in until they apply for a zoning permit. After discussing with him that the zoning allows the use etc...he won't budge. so, ok I go down and fill out the zoning permit and pay my 50 buck fee (what he was really after the whole time) he says he needs a floorplan showing the space to be rented. I go back, make a drawing, submit it saying if there is anything else he needs let me know. 2 weeks go by...I hear nothing. I assume he must have no more questions and I go down to pick up my cert.. (2 weeks here is a long wait). It's not done. He wants more info. He never told me he wants more info. I guess I'm supposed to be a mindreader. I have tenants sitting around waiting to move in and this could have been done a week ago but he didn't care enough about the realities of the businesspeople he is dealing with to bother to contact me. 
His secretary tells me he wants the desks drawn on the plan where people are going to sit. I just looked at her for a few seconds...I make her get the guy on the radio and ask what he wants? surely he can't want to know exactely where everyone is going to sit within one large room. How am I supposed to control that? What difference does it make, either the room is ok for use or not. They might walk all over the room at any given time. But that's what he wants..I just shook my head, left.....made a drawing with some desks on it and then he passed it. No justification for why he wanted it. He just makes it up as he goes quite often. I could have refused..and fought more because I know he is wrong but that wouldnt have served my tenant. too often its just a power play with inspectors. Not all are this way...but I've run into this guy waaay too often.

Thats just one example of permits gone wrong..I could keep going if I wanted or had time.
Permits do serve a function and it is not a good idea to give out advice to "skip them", but cities would have a much higher compliance rate if they did some things to make the experience smoother for people. I have to deal with them, so I do. But it is hard to blame the average Homeowner for not wanting to fool with them for the occasional project.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

trptman said:


> .....he says he needs a floorplan showing the space to be rented. I go back, make a drawing, submit it saying if there is anything else he needs let me know. .....His secretary tells me he wants the desks drawn on the plan where people are going to sit. I just looked at her for a few seconds...I make her get the guy on the radio and ask what he wants? surely he can't want to know exactely where everyone is going to sit within one large room. How am I supposed to control that? What difference does it make, either the room is ok for use or not. They might walk all over the room at any given time. But that's what he wants..I just shook my head, left.....made a drawing with some desks on it and then he passed it. No justification for why he wanted it. He just makes it up as he goes quite often.....


"We _mock_, what we don't understand."

The Building Inspectional Dept. is part of PUBLIC SAFETY. They have an assigned responsibility and obligation to protect the public. When they don't, bad things can happen. When bad things happen (and they do), the public goes after them.

You were asked these questions regarding the area's layout, because of "Means of Egress". Escape routes, in the event of an emergency. 

Fire, building collapse, mad gun-man, bomb, etc...

He wanted to make sure that the area would not become an escape route death trap. It has happened (People bunched up in desk filled offices, exits blocked by filing cabinets, etc). 

In areas where certain fatal accidents have occurred, prudence dictates that the local gvt. start initiating greater measures to ensure that people are safe. (or get out safe).
Example: Station Fire.

Some things to think about, and understand....


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## beer_geek

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> "We _mock_, what we don't understand."
> 
> The Building Inspectional Dept. is part of PUBLIC SAFETY. They have an assigned responsibility and obligation to protect the public. When they don't, bad things can happen. When bad things happen (and they do), the public goes after them.
> 
> You were asked these questions regarding the area's layout, because of "Means of Egress". Escape routes, in the event of an emergency.
> 
> Fire, building collapse, mad gun-man, bomb, etc...
> 
> He wanted to make sure that the area would not become an escape route death trap. It has happened (People bunched up in desk filled offices, exits blocked by filing cabinets, etc).
> 
> In areas where certain fatal accidents have occurred, prudence dictates that the local gvt. start initiating greater measures to ensure that people are safe. (or get out safe).
> Example: Station Fire.
> 
> Some things to think about, and understand....


Pretty condesending post there. Perhaps you failed to notice the poster saying, 

"No justification for why he wanted it." 

Other than the condesension, your post is giving justification. If the inspector had taken 15 seconds to do what you did, I'd bet things would have been smoother for all parties concerned.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

I am sorry that you feel that way. It was not meant to be condescending. It was meant to be truthful.

I noted a "saying/movie quote", which summed up the previous poster's frustration (we have all been there). Then I explained what the issue was, from the alternative viewpoint. 

The first line paraphrases an idiom that bears this connotation: 
It's a statement of fact regarding human nature: _"*We* mock, that which we don't understand."_ *We* all, as a whole, by human nature, have the tendancy to jump to conclusions, then criticize, and judge a situation, before *we* find-out/know all the facts. *We *all do it, *we *all are guilty of it, - myself included. 

I also noted an important fact, which many people (home owners also) are not aware of, or fail to see. That being; The Local Building Depts, and their inspectors, are under the jurisdiction of Public Safety. They, thus, have a heavier responsibility on their shoulders, than simply pushing paperwork, and noting Ok, or Nay - to inspections and applications. They are looking out for your personal safety, for the community's safety.

Yes, it would have been great if the inspector had explained it all. That was the first thought to go through my head. 
Unfortunately, we do not live in a "perfect" world, with perfect people. 

When we get frustrated over an issue, it is always best to find all the facts. There may be a reason for someone's actions, that we may not realize at the moment. This goes beyond just the situation mentioned. It's a good principle to incorporate ...... in life.


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## trptman

Atlantic, I've read enough of your posts to see that you're an intelligent guy and _like I said in my post_, it's not good advice to just tell someone to skip the permit process -whether its a PITA or not. 
I was giving an example of something that became a headache that didn't have to, as a way to illustrate how things could be better and therefore less intimidating for the ave. person debating whether to contact the building department. 
Because I've read enough of your past posts, I have respect for what you are trying to say. With that in mind, I'm going to try to _refrain from getting too insulted_ by the fact that you are insinuating I don't understand what the point of inspections are.

As far as my example you commented on,
The ingress, egress issue is a good point, but we are talking about a 900+ sq. foot room with no dividing walls and about 8 people in it. Hardly the makings of a stampede where people are going to get trapped by desks.
As far back as I remember there have been no incidents where there were injuries or deaths in this town because of blocked ingress/egress points. so being extra sensitive to an issue because of local history is not the motivator.
In fact, this is an older building and he's inspected this exact space many times before for other tenants in the last 15 years that wev'e had the building and I can't recall he (the same exact guy operating under the same exact ordinances-that's a whole other issue I'll get to in a minute) has EVER asked for a drawing with desks on it. Another reason why I was so surprised he wanted that detail.
My other point to the building dept. when they asked for the "desk detail" was, how am I supposed to control where they put their desks? Once they move in, I'm not obligated to police where they put their office furniture am I? I don't think so. Just because they set up the room a certain way now, doesn't mean that in 6 months they won't figure out the room works for them set up differently. If they stack all their desks in front of the doors and can't get out, that's not my fault, sorry. 
When I ask for a justification for why the inspector wants something and he won't or can't say, I get the feeling I'm being toyed with. I dont' like being toyed with and it makes me less eager to deal with him next time. That's what the city doesn't seem to understand or care about. 
One more thing to add to this whole "mini saga", 
as another example of why I dread inspections-
about 7 months ago I had a tenant sell their existing business to another person who was simply taking over in the same space doing the same thing.
They of course needed to transfer electric to their name so they call to do that. Out comes the inspector. Now keep in mind this is a building that is about 90 years old. The business that is there now has been there about 5 years. He inspected and passed it when they opened. There hasn't been anything of a construction nature happen there since. So what happens? He starts finding things "wrong" now that now I've got to alter.
I want to argue with him and not do the alterations -he passed the place once but the tenant is getting nervous about it etc. so I spend more money I don't have to just to make the inspector happy because he decides to change the rules in the middle of the game. (I'd like to ask him if we can play poker and I can change the rules to allow a pair of 4's to beat 3 kings when it's handy for me.) 
And before you ask, no there are no inspection forms that once something is passed that I can pull out and waive to him to prove he passed something. The whole thing is very informal. In fact that brings me to the other point I wanted to bring up. The best part about all of this, is that when pressed (because I've gotten sick of dealing with this kind of thing) the inspector finally admitted that there is no actual authority in the city codes granted to him to even do these "safety inspections", they've just "always done it this way". But since it's a city owned utility and he's a city official it's just easier to hope he's having a "good day" when he shows up. He's not always a PITA when he shows up, but sometimes I wonder if he's bipolar or something. seriously, I do. 
Well, I've carried on long enough. For anyone still reading this long winded mess, you deserve a medal. 

Permits and inspections are necessary but my experience has left me a bit jaded.
Atlantic, from the sounds of your posts, your experience is the opposite. Consider yourself fortunate. Wish we all had inspectors like yours. They are not.


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## HMB3307

*Work done without permit*

I currently reside in Rhode Island.  I regret to say that my husband and I have done work to our house without pulling permits. Please, don't lecture. I'm fully regretting not doing the process correctly. We have relocated the sink and gas stove, have installed recessed lighting in the kitchen and added a closet (removing a supporting wall). My husband works in construction, and we're confident everything is done correctly., However we're wondering what kind of problems would this cause for homeowers insurance? Could they drop us because of these unpermitted renovations, or just not cover any incident which these renovations caused (such as fire, water leak, etc)? We recently received a call from our homeowners insurance company saying they need to perform an inspection, however we're nervous because of the unpermitted changes we've made. Do you think they might report this to the building inspector of the city, and therefore causing us many headaches with fines? :huh:


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## KUIPORNG

*difficult choice*

why would an insurance company suddently making such request... this is rather unusual as they should have better things to do...

well... you can choose switching a insurance company.... as home insurance is kind of a buyer's market... to the very least ... if you are uncomfortable with this inspection .... which you are...

then... you can figure out what to do next with your unpermitted renovation... one good thing I have to say... I would think lots of people in the same shoe of you... not getting permit... so it shouldn't be the end of the world...


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## HMB3307

*was wondering the same*

I was wondering the same thing. They caught me off guard calling me at work. We've owned the house about a year and a half now. We just refinanced in December, but still...why would they wait five months to do an inspection if the refinance spurred it. :huh: 

Unfortunatley, the insurance company we're with right now is the only company in Rhode Island that will insure us because we have a rottweiller; and there's no giving him away to change companies. He's part of the family, also. And there's no fibbing saying it's a mixed breed because he AKC registered purebred. No mistaking that. :no: 

I read something somewhere that it's estimated that 70% of renovations in RI are done w/o permits. But I've also read that it can effect the value of your house when the time comes to sell it. And that they can charge you up to 10 times more than what the fee originally costs, and make you tear everything down.  

Thanks for your imput.


----------



## Termite

I'll be the first building inspector to weigh in on this one. (Don't shoot)

First of all, I understand the frustrations that a lot of people have with some inspectors. From my experience, for every 10 inspectors, at least 2 or 3 of them are the "ten pound badge" type, and will tell you to do things a certain way without giving any code-based justification. Their common answer is "because I said so." I know these kind of guys. I've worked with them. I've had my own work inspected by them. Not fun. 

The only way to deal with an inspector like that is to know the code better than he does. Often, they're acting like tough guy Barney Feif to compensate for a lack of actual code/construction knowledge. So, the best thing to do is to pull out a code book and ask that he go over the code with you to substantiate the call. 

As an inspector, I'm always willing to provide documentation to substantiate a call I make. I'm also willing to explain the hazard, and why it needs to be fixed. I'll often instruct people on how to make a deficiency code-compliant. 

Earlier in this thread, I read a post by someone in San Francisco, complaining that their city required permits for water heater installations. For illustrative purposes of why it is good to get them inspected I'll tell you what....
There are few things in a home that can kill your family faster than a water heater. Off the top of my head, here's some of them....

-Improper fuel gas connections
-T&P blowoff issues 
-Flue issues (ever hear about people dying in their sleep from carbon monoxide?), if they remember to hook it up!
-Electrical bonding of the metallic water piping
-Wiring issues a-plenty on an electric water heater
-Improper installations in garages (heavy combustible vapors)
-I could go on
Yeah, a water heater is small and easily installed. I've looked at literally thousands of them. I've seen well over 100 that were so dangerous it made my heart skip a beat. Nearly all of those 100+ scary ones were installed by PLUMBERS THAT WERE HIRED TO INSTALL THEM. 

Never assume that because you're paying a professional to do a job for you that you're getting a job done correctly. Assume that you are, but take the extra step to be vigilant and be an advocate for yourself and your family, and get a permit. If the inspector doesn't satisfy you, contact his boss and voice your concerns professionally. If he comes into your home and finds code violations on yours or your contractor's work, be appreciative. He's advocating for you and your family as well.

DIY-ers (and a lot of builders) just can't become familiar with the entire code. My residential code book has 611 pages. Then there's the National Electric Code, the gas code, etc. That's where communicating with the inspector before the work begins will benefit you or your builder!!!

If a contractor tells you that you shouldn't get a permit, take a minute to think about why he's telling you that. Be suspicious. Why would he not want to ensure his work's complaince with MINUMUM STANDARDS? One way or another, corners are being cut. Permits don't cost all that much for the average little project. 

We aren't paid a commission for finding extra code violations. I get paid the same whether I pass someone or fail them. Most of us care about the end-user of the building and do our job as an advocate for them.


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## KUIPORNG

*All true but ...*

Our properties is somewhat 2 to 3 % increase in access value more after the basement finished... compare to our neighbour.... because we apply permit.... so we need to pay 2 to 3% more property tax than them every year as long as we live in your home... not that much... still

not that I regret....

but another factor is people try to avoid paying extra property tax....

well... don't know how to judge that... but why would someone need to pay more tax after spending so much $$ renovating their home... this is really a phiological question ... if the goveronment don't do this annoying thing... I am sure there will be substancial more people applying for permit...


----------



## Termite

KUIPORNG said:


> Our properties is somewhat 2 to 3 % increase in access value more after the basement finished... compare to our neighbour.... because we apply permit.... so we need to pay 2 to 3% more property tax than them every year as long as we live in your home... not that much... still
> 
> not that I regret....
> 
> but another factor is people try to avoid paying extra property tax....
> 
> well... don't know how to judge that... but why would someone need to pay more tax after spending so much $$ renovating their home... this is really a phiological question ... if the goveronment don't do this annoying thing... I am sure there will be substancial more people applying for permit...


Here's a scenario for you...
If you do another remodel or addition and decide not to get a permit...Then your house burns to the ground because you or your electrician don't understand the phasing on a multiwire branch circuit and your overloaded neutral burns up...You'll be glad that you saved the 2% tax increase and permit/inspection costs that you're complaining about paying. 

Complaining isn't going to do you any good. This is a capitalist society and government/tax process, not a socialist one, and unfortunately, we all have to pay our share.


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## AndyH

Teetorbilt said:


> An addition can often trigger a property reassement as my sister recently found out. Her taxes tripled.




you better believe that city assessor will be there bright and early once your done with your addition. 

its more money for the county


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## AndyH

When i rewired my addition.(i was an apprentice for 1yr so i had some backround) I hired a local, licensed journeyman to come out and fix any "mishaps" Turns out he said he couldnt have done it better himself. It was well worth the 45 bucks


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## AndyH

I avoid permits like the plague. Because up here in michigan, houses are loosing value faster than cars. And ill be damned if im going to have my taxes raised when my property values are plummeting every year. I rehabbed a forclosure and did not pull one permit.



KUIPORNG said:


> Our properties is somewhat 2 to 3 % increase in access value more after the basement finished... compare to our neighbour.... because we apply permit.... so we need to pay 2 to 3% more property tax than them every year as long as we live in your home... not that much... still
> 
> not that I regret....
> 
> but another factor is people try to avoid paying extra property tax....
> 
> well... don't know how to judge that... but why would someone need to pay more tax after spending so much $$ renovating their home... this is really a phiological question ... if the goveronment don't do this annoying thing... I am sure there will be substancial more people applying for permit...


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## robut

*No inspector shows up*

In my town Richmond mi.
I and I know of three others who pulled permits at $ 50.00
no one ever saw an inspector ?

These were for roofing, and a fence. Just give us the money so we can get a raise. A rip off. I know it's important to have an inspection but at least walk by and say Hi ya'll :laughing:
Deck hand:jester:


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## Knucklez

thekctermite, that's what house insurance is for! even if the root cause WAS the poor wiring, if you can substantiate that the wiring had been in good working order for "some time" previous, then no big worry i think. you know how many people install ceiling fans, or change their light switch to a decor type? you need permits for that too! all those people in HD.. think they got permits?

i bet 99% of the houses out there had some work done without permits atleast once in their long life times.. yet there property insurance still fully covers all damages. nobody ever gives _them_ any trouble.. why would it be any different?

$0.02


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## Termite

Knucklez,
Ever wonder why homeowners insurance costs so much? 

Yes, homeowners insurance will cover the damages. Problem is that the insurance agent hasn't figured out how to replace dead family members. The insurance agent won't be there to help you out of a smoke filled house when the smoke detectors weren't installed where they should be so you didn't hear them. The insurance agent can't help you when your kid is in the burn unit. The insurance agent won't console the family of the firefighter that gets injured or dies while fighting the fire that someone's poor wiring techniques caused. The insurance agent sure can't save every kid from being shocked in a pool or getting stuck on the improperly installed suction drain. 

Fact is that you don't need a permit to change out a light fixture, a fan, or a switch in most jurisdictions.

Some people are so convinced of their talents that they won't advocate for themselves and pull a permit to ensure that everything they did is safe. That's just fine. It is their/your decision. The truly sad fact is that people spew the awful advice that others should not advocate for themselves by pulling a permit and getting an inspection or two. Nothing wrong with taking your own bad advice, but why spread it to others who might actually want to abide by the law and advocate for their own safety at the same time?

I'm not going to change some of your minds. I hope my reasonable and helpful nature on this site will convince some people that building inspectors aren't the boogeyman and that we are in fact in place to protect people...And that sometimes includes protecting people from themselves.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Well stated.


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## Knucklez

agreed, good points.

i guess your viewpoint was for more serious projects like installing electrical for a hot-tub. or digging out a basement or building a deck that needs to support your first margaritaville celebration party!

yes, i agree 100%, get professional opinion & get a permit.

i was thinking more about minor things like how i find it ridiculous that one needs a permit for a light switch (true in my location). or if my kitchen sink faucet is leaking and i want to replace it. what is considered "minor" and who does the considering is a separate, and long, story 

Knucklez


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## Termite

Knucklez said:


> i was thinking more about minor things like how i find it ridiculous that one needs a permit for a light switch (true in my location). or if my kitchen sink faucet is leaking and i want to replace it.


We agree in full! :thumbsup:


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## Big Bob

HMB3307 said:


> I currently reside in Rhode Island.  I regret to say that my husband and I have done work to our house without pulling permits. Please, don't lecture. I'm fully regretting not doing the process correctly. We have relocated the sink and gas stove, have installed recessed lighting in the kitchen and added a closet (removing a supporting wall). My husband works in construction, and we're confident everything is done correctly., However we're wondering what kind of problems would this cause for homeowners insurance? Could they drop us because of these unpermitted renovations, or just not cover any incident which these renovations caused (such as fire, water leak, etc)? We recently received a call from our homeowners insurance company saying they need to perform an inspection, however we're nervous because of the unpermitted changes we've made. Do you think they might report this to the building inspector of the city, and therefore causing us many headaches with fines? :huh:


Insurance inspections as exampled above are typically for updating risk to the carrier. They involve what is termed a four point inspection. Roof, electrical, plumbing & HVAC. The carrier wants to know if your systems have been upgraded. These inspectors really don't care if you pulled a permit or not. ( permits are helpful to date your improvements)
The inspector might also look for other risk factors...trees hanging over the house...the pool that does not have a fence...is FeFee a peaceful poodle or mailman eating mutt... some will even look for good locks, fire extinguishers, functioning alarm systems... to help reduce your premium.

Most States now require carriers to offer Ordinance and Law coverage.
So the homeowner will not be out of pocket for reconstruction to current code requirements.

If You have a lot of older systems then the carriers risk is increased.
Old electric may mean fire hazard... old plumbing... might leak...
Old roof... can't repair will need to replace...

If you have significantly improved your dwelling (addition ..etc..)
and not increased your insurance then you may be subject to co-insurance or under insured clauses in your policy that could limit your payment if you had to file a claim.

Carriers will cover you even if you drop a tree on your house... but not if you aimed it at the house.:furious:


----------



## pws

*deck construction*



penaddict said:


> Does adding a deck up your property tax as this isn't "livable space?" Thanks.


Most states property tax is based on the value of the home, not necessarily the living space...If you permit the construction of the deck (which probably should be done), they will most likely increase the value of your property assessment, thus increasing your taxes each year...


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## DUDE!

*mixed feelings*

Just adding my two cents to the pile, at my last house, I pulled a permit to do the roof, never seen the inspector but I wasn't home during his work day, pulled one to add some fill, (100 tons). Had a neighbor, we didn't always see eye to eye, he pulled a permit to renovate his kitchen, only original thing standing when he finished was the back steps, complete new house. I heard him complain about the inspector's wants so I figure the inspector must of shown up. I've done my share of work with no permits, buried a dry well in that fill area. Put it down on paper when we were selling, realtor said, "too much info'. I did declare the problem on that declaration paper from the state. Forget the title of that form. About nine months after buying this house, ins. agent said I need to reroof, I took off two layers and laid new roof, no permit. Last year I added a half-bath, again no permit, and have to admit, if I'd gotton one, I wouldn't of had to do the sewer pipe over again. This past weekend, had a contractor help me fix a portion of the sill plate that was rotted away from the water that seeped behind the front stoop that my home inspector failed to tell me about, again no permit. I have no valid reason for not getting permits, and I would suggest that anyone doing work, get one, I understand they are there to help you. If I hired a contractor, I definitly would get one, in my case this past weekend, he wouldn't even take fuel money. And as for tax records, my present house is listed at town hall as having three bedrooms, damn if I can find that third one. I'm probably paying for that one. Last rambling thought, if I was an inspector before I signed my name on that job, I wouldn't want anything to come back to bite me. We live in a law-suit society.


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## chalk_hill

pws said:


> Most states property tax is based on the value of the home, not necessarily the living space...If you permit the construction of the deck (which probably should be done), they will most likely increase the value of your property assessment, thus increasing your taxes each year...


Chances are that when you (or your heirs) decide to sell your home the appraisal will include a search of the permit records. Typically, items added without permits are excluded from the valuation. So even if that deck or room addition turned out great that square footage is effectively deducted from the estimate of your home value. The buyer's mortgage company will only lend based on the appraised value, so in some situations it can be an expensive lesson for the few $$ saved in not paying permit fees.

It can take many years for some shortcuts to come all the way around and bite you back, but when they do the bite is all the harder.


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## Big Bob

chalk_hill said:


> Chances are that when you (or your heirs) decide to sell your home the appraisal will include a search of the permit records. Typically, items added without permits are excluded from the valuation. So even if that deck or room addition turned out great that square footage is effectively deducted from the estimate of your home value. The buyer's mortgage company will only lend based on the appraised value, so in some situations it can be an expensive lesson for the few $$ saved in not paying permit fees.
> 
> It can take many years for some shortcuts to come all the way around and bite you back, but when they do the bite is all the harder.


This sounds like state laws may vary a lot. In Florida we have annual percentile caps "State Statute" on taxable appraised value that are not effected by renovation and repair permits. Permits for additions increasing the foot print are subject to occasional review by (under staffed local property tax appraisers office) once every three or so years. When a house is sold ...a new "fair market value" has been established and the tax rate is adjusted to the sale price of the home. Mortgage appraisals (what have similar homes sold for) and insurance inspections ( is the 4 point inspection acceptable to the underwriters) have nothing to do with Florida property taxes other than their effect on the selling price of the dwelling when the house sells. When a house is being sold Title insurers do search local permit records and county records for notice of commencements.. to be sure no liens are or can be attached to the deeded property. 

I advocate pulling permits when local and state ordinance requires them.
Can permits be a PITA.?.yes! Can they add time and cost to a project.?.yes!

Can they help insure your safety and the safety of others?...YES!

Do I pull permits when I am working on my own home? ...no...Do I worry about this...No! Do I do this work to code or better?..Yes

My church is full of hypocrites too... we have room for a few more.


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## chalk_hill

Big Bob said:


> Mortgage appraisals (what have similar homes sold for) and insurance inspections ( is the 4 point inspection acceptable to the underwriters) have nothing to do with Florida property taxes other than their effect on the selling price of the dwelling when the house sells.


I didn't intend to imply a link between mortgage valuations and property taxes, but to point out that adding large items to your home without inspections can come around to hit you as unintended consequences at resale.

Even if you are a knowledgeable workman and do everything right, subsequent potential owners / insurers have no way to validate that what is under the drywall is correct. This is the bonus value of permits - written certification by an accepted institution.


> When a house is being sold Title insurers do search local permit records and county records for notice of commencements.. to be sure no liens are or can be attached to the deeded property.


Realtors worth their salt will look into this too. As time passes and litigation increases such things become obligatory.


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## KUIPORNG

*may be we should*

submit permit when requires and do the projects...

don't submit permit when requires and don't do the project....

do project which don't require permits and don't submit permits...

see you in fact do have a legitmate choice.... it is not that you are force to a corner...


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## ScottR

This thread has been long-running, so I figured I'd jump in to share an (as far as I know) *unusual *town code regarding electrical work where I live. The code basically defines the standards for licensing electricians, and what the code applies to -- it defers any actual wiring rules, etc to the latest version of the NEC.

This quote is from the Applicability section of the code, under Electrical Standards:



Code of the Town Of Oyster Bay said:


> E. A resident of the Town of Oyster Bay shall not be subject to the requirements of this chapter when temporarily performing minor electrical work in a one-family dwelling, which he owns and wherein he actually resides, except that he shall comply with the following:
> 
> (1)An affidavit shall be submitted to the Superintendent of the Division of Building, Department of Planning and Development or his designee stating that the homeowner both resides in and owns the premises and will actually perform the electrical work in his one-family dwelling.
> 
> (2)Additional requirements.
> 
> (a)The homeowner shall complete the application required by an approved electrical inspection service, which application shall accompany the aforesaid affidavit.
> 
> (b)The homeowner shall submit a schematic of the work to be performed.
> 
> (c)The homeowner shall submit a brief letter stating his qualifications to do the work indicated.
> 
> (3) The Town of Oyster Bay Electrical Board of Examiners shall prepare several general knowledge written tests to ascertain a homeowner's qualifications, ability and general electrical knowledge. These tests are to be changed at intervals at the request of the Superintendent of the Division of Building to reflect updated codes and methods.
> 
> (4)The aforesaid examination shall be administered by the Superintendent of the Division of Building, or a duly appointed designee.
> 
> (5)Upon a passing grade, the electrical work may be performed by the homeowner only for the prescribed work, and it is to be inspected by an approved electrical inspection company. If the applicant fails to obtain a passing grade, he or she will be denied approval to perform the work proposed. He or she may take future tests but not for the same proposed work as that of which he or she failed to obtain a passing grade.
> 
> [... Here I removed some more points from this section that state the homeowner has to comply with code in materials and workmanship and some other "standard"/sensible things...]


Note this would apply to me if I was "temporarily performing minor electrical work" in my home -- now what that means is completely open to interpretation by town officials. And it technically encompasses anything from changing a light switch to installing a ceiling fan.

So they are DIY 'friendly'... Sort of. You just have to sign an affidavit, hire an inspector, make/submit a schematic, write a letter of qualifications, and pass a test, and _then _you can change that switch to a dimmer. 

I suppose the code is sort of progressive, but the entire process above can be a *multi-day *affair, and the town business has to be conducted during *weekday business hours*. Which means taking time off of work. Which means it's probably just cheaper to hire an electrician than miss days of work. But what fun is that?

At least you can hire your own inspector (in fact, according to the code, any Master Electrician is qualified to inspect), so you can't get stuck with one of those aforementioned power-trip/ignorant guys.

And is this next one typical of other codes around the country?



Code of the Town Of Oyster Bay said:


> § 180-17. Right of entry.
> 
> In the discharge of his duties, the Plumbing Inspector shall have authority to enter any premises, building or structure.


I imagine it's typical in other codes to allow the Inspector to enter premises to do his duty. What irks me about the way they word it is that, by law, he could leap into my bedroom in the middle of the night or walk around my house when I'm not there without notifying me, so long as I'm in the process of having plumbing work done.



Code of the Town Of Oyster Bay said:


> ARTICLE IV, Plumbing Permits
> 
> § 180-22. Required.
> 
> A.At the time of filing an application for a building permit, each applicant shall include an application for a plumbing permit properly signed by a master plumber. The applicant shall pay the prescribed fee.


No DIY there. A master plumber must apply for the permit. It *does not say *(anywhere I could find) that a master plumber must *do the work*. I have yet to find out if a master plumber anywhere will sign a permit, then let me do the work. Anyone have a guess there?

Finally (and if you've gotten this far, thanks for humoring me), I'd like to say that all this and more is regulated at the town level. And each town is in charge of *electrical and plumbing licensing.* That means that if you, an electrician, have a license in my town, you don't automatically have a license in the next town. And BTW - around here, it's not like towns are 100 miles apart. I could probably go through 3 towns in a 15 minute drive in any direction.

The point of all of this *isn't* to say that we should avoid permits nor inspections. It's only to highlight how some jurisdictions make it difficult and intimidating for the average DIYer to get started on their project.


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## eis61374

*Different answers from NYC Dept of Building*

Hi all, the 2 times I have called the NYC Dept. of Buildings (I live in manhattan) I have been told different things regarding my need for permits in order to replace my condo flooring. 
First time I was told I didn't need to submit plans, but would have to go to their offices & fill out paperwork in order to get a permit that would allow me to do the work.
Second time I was told that I had to submit plans & also have an architect examine them.
Has anyone here dealt with the DoB here in NYC?
Thanks again all!


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## gma2rjc

I have some questions I want to ask my township inspector about my attic, mostly I want to ask his advice about some safety issues with insulation. I'm not worried about him going up in my attic, but a year ago I remodeled my bathroom with no permits. I didn't pull permits for it because I wasn't planning on changing any of the electrical, plumbing, structure or HVAC. 

3 questions:
Did I even need permits for my bathroom if I wasn't changing any of the above?

Is the inspector there to answer questions I have, or is that not part of his job description? (that sounds sarcastic, but it isn't meant to be) 

My taxes didn't go up very much at all after I built a two-tier deck on the back of the house (had a permit for that) but will taxes go up if I'm adding insulation? It doesn't seem like they should.


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## gma2rjc

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Code of the Town Of Oyster Bay, NY* 
_
§ 180-17. Right of entry. 

In the discharge of his duties, the Plumbing Inspector shall have authority to enter any premises, building or structure._


The real reason this part of the 'code' is written this way, is that when the Plumbing Inspector has a problem with his plumbing (needs to use a bathroom suddenly) he has plenty of bathrooms to choose from. :no: I'm just kidding. Actually, I'm glad/lucky we had an inspector do a final inspection on our deck. He found 3 things that needed to be done before he would sign-off on it. Two of the three things, had they not been noticed by him, would have been dangerous if children were using the deck.


----------



## AtlanticWBConst.

gma2rjc said:


> I have some questions I want to ask my township inspector about my attic, mostly I want to ask his advice about some safety issues with insulation. I'm not worried about him going up in my attic, but a year ago I remodeled my bathroom with no permits. I didn't pull permits for it because I wasn't planning on changing any of the electrical, plumbing, structure or HVAC.


Then just stick to the subject you want to ask him about. I'd suggest you either call, or go down and ask him in person.



gma2rjc said:


> 3 questions:
> Did I even need permits for my bathroom if I wasn't changing any of the above?


Most likely....You stated that you remodeled your bathroom. If that is what you did, as opposed to doing some drywall repairs, paint and new molding, then you probably should have gotten a permit. That is also something that should be asked by you, maybe at another time. Often, such a question can even be answered by someone else at the Building Dept Counter, as it is a general question.



gma2rjc said:


> Is the inspector there to answer questions I have, or is that not part of his job description? (that sounds sarcastic, but it isn't meant to be)


He should be there to do that. I cannot comment for all, but I have run into some miserable SOB's that will answer your question, with a question.
That is a rarity. The majority of inspectors are very decent and helpful individuals who are eager to be of help to answer questions by property owners.



gma2rjc said:


> My taxes didn't go up very much at all after I built a two-tier deck on the back of the house (had a permit for that) but will taxes go up if I'm adding insulation? It doesn't seem like they should.


That is a question for your local Town Hall.


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## jenoble99

*Inspections/permits pointless*

A few months ago while my wife and I were home shopping we ran across a piece of property with an older mobile home on it for dirt cheap. We made an offer and such with one contigency being we could build with no issues(were goign to scrap the mobile home). Well my wife calls the county building inspector to see what's required for a building permit. He says you need to have the current septic (about 5 years old)inspected first. So we call the health department, he checks the system and finds it to be in violation of several county ordinances, let alone common sense. They pulled no permit for the septic, it was installed without a drain field, essentially piped into a ditch. We asked what we could do, he said we could request it be fixed by the seller, request money off, or do nothing and pay for it ourselves. one way or another it HAD to be fixed. When asked what they would do he said he'll forward a letter to the prosecutor but nothing will be done more than likely. 
My point is I understand the reasoning behind permits and inspections, they keep folks safe when used properly. But in my county at least they are a useless time and money wasting pieces of paper, people get away without getting them all the time. For the record we passed on the mobile home property, what else the sellers were not telling us, we didn't care to find out. And also for the record, if needed I would probably pull a permit, it's just the way I am, do it the right way, even though it would be worthless in the long run.


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## Termite

jenoble99, the sad thing is that many people in your situation with the septic tank would look at it a different way. If they bought the house with the faulty system and moved in, they'd gripe about the need for a permit and inspection. The same people would be very quick to place blame on the local authority having jurisdiction if the system failed and no permit had been required. 

The county inspector was 100% correct in requiring that the septic be brought into compliance if a new home was to be built on the property. By doing so, he'd have been doing you a favor. That is apparently overshadowed by the apparent inconvenience and expense. The fact that it was improperly installed in the first place is only the fault of the county if they knew it was going in at the time and didn't do anything. 

To state that inspections and permits are pointless or worthless pretty much destroys someone's credibility in my opinion and that of most informed professionals. Worse yet, it spreads what is generally a very false impression of a process that is in place to make structures safe.


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## AtlanticWBConst.

*FWIW - If anyone is looking for the last several posts on this thread. They have been moved over to a separate discussion. The posts were going off topic, in relation to what the title of this thread is about.*

Link to where posts were moved to: http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=33537


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## Aggie67

I don't know about any one else's experience, but I'd like to know:

When I sold my house, the buyer's agent wanted copies of permits for every improvement made on the structure, for the entire history of the house. The agent said she was going to pursue price breaks of around $30,000 if we didn't cough up paperwork on the deck, the basement, the wood stove, the shed...

Needless to say, I had permits for every single job, sitting neatly in my property's jacket down at town hall. I took a ride, made the copies, learned a few things about my home's history I didn't know. The buyers sat on my stack of permits for a little while, but ultimately bought the house. The agent tried every trick in the book to nail me on not having permits or not having certain items up to code. That stack of permits I had pulled all those years were like a $30,000 lottery ticket, because without them I was either not getting my price or not selling (and both selling and selling it for my price were required if I wanted to buy another house).

A few months later, when I was looking to buy a house, I asked the owner for copies of permits on any work done since the home was built. He had maybe a third of them. I was able to negotiate the price down a large sum because certain permits were never pulled, and the work had to be inspected and brought up to code, wiring had to be redone. I found out that once that horse is out of the barn - that the nice addition with the wet bar and extra bathroom was not built under a permit nor ever properly inspected - it becomes an item that needs to be disclosed on the disclosure statement. In his case, the house instantly became uninsurable, and thus unsellable. 

No one on this planet or in this universe will ever be able to convince me that permits aren't worth the time and expense.


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## Termite

Great post Aggie67. Thanks for sharing your experiences. :thumbsup:


----------



## gma2rjc

That's very interesting Aggie. The threat of either not being able to sell a house or of losing thousands of dollars on the sale of it is a good incentive to get permits. Thanks for posting that. 



> In his case, the house instantly became uninsurable, and thus unsellable.


Do insurance companies ask for proof of permits now too? This all seems like it's something new with buying/selling a house. Getting a permit to do work in a house obviously isn't anything new, but I've never heard of realtors or insurance companies asking for proof of a permit. It sure does make sense though. Mostly it makes me mad at myself for not getting more permits than I did, in case I ever do want to sell. Like the saying goes, you live and you learn. Have a Merry Christmas!


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## Aggie67

I hadn't ever heard of the whole requiring-proof-of-permit contingency until I tried to sell. It was new to me, but I see on the internet that it's not uncommon. It'll only be a matter of time until folks use that, especially in a buyer's market. 

When I purchased, I was upfront with the insurance company during the negotiation process. They said they would not cover any claim on the addition or in the original house, unless corrective work was performed under a permit and everything brought up to code and inspected, and a CO issued. 

(I looked on the internet and the common refrain is that the insurance co's will use it as an excuse to not honor a claim. I don't see anywhere where they require it. I guess they're ok banging you for the premium, but when the claim gets submitted, out comes the magnifying glass for the policy's fine print.)


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## gma2rjc

That's all good information for home buyer's and home owners to have.


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## Leah Frances

It's the insurance company's job to avoid paying on claims whenever they can, that's how they make $$$. Failing to get proper permits INVITES your insurance company to refuse and or revoke coverage.

Why gamble with the biggest investment you'll ever make?


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## ramcharger

always something said:


> I totally understand the concept of permits and as to why they are required and in place, But from what i have seen in my own house when contractors have performed repairs e.g. roofing and a fireplace liner,both to which i was very unhappy with the workmanship, and when consulting the building inspector,he in turn asked advice from the
> contractors........What the... maybe it is just my area, but i sure have lost confidience..


The problem most people have with these type of problems is because they did not verify the contractor's license and require him to pull all of the necessary permits. If he does not want to pull the permits, its probably because he is in trouble with the inspector because of his work ethics.........ramcharger

*http://www.findagoodcontractor.net*


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## DigitalDodge

How can we really call this a free country and how can we say we really own property when you have to beg the government for permission to build an addition to your own home.


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## jerryh3

DigitalDodge said:


> How can we really call this a free country and how can we say we really own property when you have to beg the government for permission to build an addition to your own home.


Because it may not always be your home. What if something you did compromised the safety of someone that buys the house from you?


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## Termite

DigitalDodge said:


> How can we really call this a free country and how can we say we really own property when you have to beg the government for permission to build an addition to your own home.


Oh give me a break. You're really floating the "free country" argument? :no:

Would you make the same ridiculous free country argument because you're only allowed to drive 65mph on the highway? If you would, your credibility is irreparably damaged. If you wouldn't then you're being a hypocrite.

Most peoples' inability to build and wire structures to safe standards negatively effects the safety of the occupants of your home and your neighbors' properties. The government involvement you speak of simply ensures everyone's safety and also helps ensure that your structure will not lose all its value due to poor construction practices.


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## jenoble99

thekctermite said:


> jenoble99, the sad thing is that many people in your situation with the septic tank would look at it a different way. If they bought the house with the faulty system and moved in, they'd gripe about the need for a permit and inspection. The same people would be very quick to place blame on the local authority having jurisdiction if the system failed and no permit had been required.
> 
> The county inspector was 100% correct in requiring that the septic be brought into compliance if a new home was to be built on the property. By doing so, he'd have been doing you a favor. That is apparently overshadowed by the apparent inconvenience and expense. The fact that it was improperly installed in the first place is only the fault of the county if they knew it was going in at the time and didn't do anything.
> 
> To state that inspections and permits are pointless or worthless pretty much destroys someone's credibility in my opinion and that of most informed professionals. Worse yet, it spreads what is generally a very false impression of a process that is in place to make structures safe.


 I had totally forgotten about this thread. Our main reason for not buying the property was they advertised it in a certain way, it ended up not being what was advertised, they did not disclose the issue with the sewage on top of the ground and the faulty septic. 
I have no problem with permits, my point was if I HAVE to pull a permit, then so should the guy down the street. If you aren't going to enforce it, then lots of folks out there figure what's the point, essentially making them worthless in my county. Another example would be my parents when they built a storage shed. My Dad went to the CO inspectors office and told them what he wanted and he needed the proper permit. They started in with you have to do this and an engineer to sign off on the plan, blueprints, a whole list of things they needed. Well when they asked where we lived, he told them our address, the lady asked I thought "name here" lived there. My dad told them yeah that's my father-in-law, he moved down the street and sold us this place. Her next statement was, well don't worry about all the drawings, here's your permit. Once again, not enforced, the building was never inspectedeven though we notified them it was completed, and therefore nullifying the whole point of permits, proper and safe structures and buildings. In my County it's all about who you know. Hopefully this clears up my statement about permits being somewhat pointless, the county makes them pointless by not enforcing the rules. I agree if a potential buyer asks then they should be presented, this about the only reason they are worth getting where I live.


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## Aggie67

thekctermite said:


> Oh give me a break. You're really floating the "free country" argument? :no:
> 
> Would you make the same ridiculous free country argument because you're only allowed to drive 65mph on the highway? If you would, your credibility is irreparably damaged. If you wouldn't then you're being a hypocrite.
> 
> Most peoples' inability to build and wire structures to safe standards negatively effects the safety of the occupants of your home and your neighbors' properties. The government involvement you speak of simply ensures everyone's safety and also helps ensure that your structure will not lose all its value due to poor construction practices.


Ahhhh, I can always count on theKCtermite for sage advice and a direct response. You said it all. I second this post.


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## Scuba_Dave

My last house I pulled one permit

Redo roof, renovate house
That basically covered anything & everything I would do
Prior owners never a pulled a permit for anything (AFAIK)
They tried to enclose the front porch - after already enclosing the last one - and the building inspector stopped them

Before purchase I asked the building inspector if he had any issues with the house, He wanted a fridge gone from side yard (door still on), shed moved, warned me that the porch could not be made a room unless I applied for a permit/variance. After purchase I took care of the things he wanted & tore the 1/2 wall off the front porch

My neighbor was selling his house. Someone tried the permit thing & had a list of items & they wanted thousands off the listing price. Neighbor turned their offer down, fixed the items on the list, raised the price by $5k & sold the house. The original buyer made another offer & he turned him down again

Frankly if a buyer tried that I'd tell them to get lost
I've pulled permits here for all my work
But I'm basically doubling the size of the house


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## JULIE Inc

*Always call before you dig.*



housedocs said:


> Thinking about a home improvement project? My muncipalities require permits for many types of home improvement projects. These codes are in place for safety of all and take into consideration local conditions, (such as hurricane zones, earthquake zones, snowloads in northern regions, etc. which must be taken into account during the planning phase of your project. From here you'll be able to find out what type of permits are required for your region and who to contact about them.
> 
> It's also important to consider what's beneath your yard before you start digging and post holes, footers, etc. Every state has a different phone number to call fo this, but if you will do a google search with the terms "call before you dig & Your State" You'll find the link to the approriate local agency, many allow you to register your dig on-line and nearly all have toll free phone numbers. *Warning*, failure to follow established procedures will in most cases leave you or your contractor liable for any damages which may occur to underground utilities not to mention possibly be hazardous to your health!!
> 
> Another reason, (that I'm sure Mike S. could elobrate on) for taking the time to pull permits for remodeling and additions (a deck is an addition to the structure) is prevent future headaches if and when you should choose to sell your property. Items that don't meet code will be on the home inspector's hit list of items that will devalue your property.
> 
> Work safe, follow the rules & codes, you'll be glad you did.


 It is very important to know whats buried in your yard before you begin any digging project. Now it's even easier to reach the one-call in your state by simply calling 811. This three digit number was federally mandated 2 years ago. The only difference state to state may be the number of days required to call prior to digging. To be safe I would allow at least 3 working days for the utilities to come out and mark their buried facilities.


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## gma2rjc

Good info Julie, thanks.


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## Knucklez

selling a home, buyer asks for permits? my house is over a 100yrs old. i have NO IDEA what work was done with or without permits during its history. if you ask for money off the price because of this, i tell you to get a good house inspector or get lost. 

its "*buyer beware*" in my county baby!

Knucklez


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## Ezhel

yes indeed!they wanted to know if we follow certain rules for home improvement or renovations.


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## BowDown

I have to pull a permit to run my new 200A service. New weather head, 4/0 alum, meter box, new main panel, GFI outlet. Ok, I can see why a permit would be necessary... but does the permit cover my NYS Electrical Inspection? No. I don't honestly know what the permit does outside of document the upgrade somewhere in the City's database. I still have to drop $100 for an inspector to come out and certify my work so the electric can be turned back on.

-Justin


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## Scuba_Dave

Here it covers the Inspection
And here a HO is not allowed to run the main service feed
Permit is part of the process, it differs depending upon where you are. Many people pull permits & then never do the work. So possibly in your area they divided the fee between permit & inspection
The process is there to insure that the job is done correctly


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## BowDown

This is true. Don't get me wrong... when messing with 200A + of current I want to make sure my wiring is up to par. I can connect all my circuits later without an inspection. The city, and utility co. just wants to know that the main feed, meter, and main panel are wired correctly.


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## bbnet

i think, everyone should research before

http://www.blinkb.vn


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## LifeTimeLumber

I have sold a few decks, and I always tell my customers that no matter what it is critical to go through the hassle and get all the papers in order. If you don't, there is a chance that you will have to tear down what you built, just because it is just ever so slightly not up to code in one spot.

http://www.ltlumber.com


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## Aggie67

ksart said:


> What's the most common reason have you seen in the past for people to lose their decks?


My apologies up front for the hijack, but I have 2 cents to add that people would probably want to hear about:

3 times in last 3 years I've had to go to bat for folks for after-the-fact jobs:
Two cases where setbacks were encroached (and never got zoning appvl or permit - they really dislike that), and had to be modified
One case where stairs, railings and balusters were insufficient, and had to be rebuilt

I also just did a set of prints for a client in an Atlantic City rooftop penthouse where the officials called out height of the parapet and handrails relative to the deck surface. Deck is being lowered 1.25 inch to comply, although the deck was going to be replaced anyway.

One person asked me to sign off on his unpermitted deck 6 years after install so he could sell the property. I had to decline. He had to get the deck rebuilt. Footings were salvaged, sidewalk leading up to it was salvaged. Electrical was torn out and left out.

I've also seen a fire escape type egress stair/deck come down for an apartment that was deficient for balusters and stair dimensions. I did drawings and a zoning meeting for that replacement job just after Thanksgiving. Landlord still hasn't replaced it.


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## DMDz

*Permits*

How sad is this, I am in the business of drawing details for permits. I can not stand the process here in Newport Beach, CA. As the rules here are made so you can pretty much can't build anything with shape, and make sure its smaller then the last year! :laughing:

I love drafting, but these guys are just out of control with these silly rules. The funny thing is I can go over to the next town, 5 minutes away and get all new rules that are much easier, and make sense. 

So its not just the med field that needs a change

Dave


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## Termite

Aggie67 said:


> One person asked me to sign off on his unpermitted deck 6 years after install so he could sell the property. I had to decline. He had to get the deck rebuilt. Footings were salvaged, sidewalk leading up to it was salvaged. Electrical was torn out and left out.


So many engineers prostitute themselves out on this sort of thing, it is refreshing that there are still engineers and others in the trades out there with principles, morality and a sense of liability. Well done. :yes:


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## AtlanticWBConst.

thekctermite said:


> So many engineers prostitute themselves out on this sort of thing, it is refreshing that there are still engineers and others in the trades out there with principles, morality and a sense of liability. Well done. :yes:


I've run into similar circumstances KCT. I'd never put my License on the line for anyone, or any amount of money. 

Beyond the ethics of it, it's just plain common sense to most decent people.

BTW - You need to lighten up on the postings, you're getting a little too far ahead of me.


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## Termite

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> BTW - You need to lighten up on the postings, you're getting a little too far ahead of me.


Scuba Dave will have exceeded both our post counts within a month! I'm thinking Vegas is taking odds on the date.


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## Scuba_Dave

I'm still 1400 back, maybe when the kids are born & you are napping when they are :yes:
1400/18 posts per day = 78 days to catch up to current post count. Not counting additional posts made during that time
But if you are making say 10 posts a day then I only gain 8 a day
So 1400/8 = 175 days to catch up
So sometime in March maybe 

But I will lose time once I start setting up for Halloween
Which I will need to start towards the end of Sept


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## gma2rjc

Thanks for changing the 'you' to 'your' in the title of this thread.


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## Scuba_Dave

gma2rjc said:


> Thanks for changing the 'you' to 'your' in the title of this thread.


It bugged me every time I saw it
I kept meaning to....finally I did


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## gma2rjc

:thumbup:


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## Debbiesue

*Permits*

I live in Newport News Virginia. My project is to install sote facing onto an existing fireplace. The stone will not extend into the firebox or alter the fireplace in any way other than appearance The fireplace is a zero clearnce type and has a black metal insert in it. The stone will go ver the exsisting slate and up to but not onto the metal at all. Do I need a permit for this?


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## Termite

Debbiesue said:


> I live in Newport News Virginia. My project is to install sote facing onto an existing fireplace. The stone will not extend into the firebox or alter the fireplace in any way other than appearance The fireplace is a zero clearnce type and has a black metal insert in it. The stone will go ver the exsisting slate and up to but not onto the metal at all. Do I need a permit for this?


The only way to know for sure is to call your local inspections department. I doubt they'll fuss much. Be sure to let them know it is a zero clearance unit and you're only adding stone around it for aesthetics. If you're leaving the existing framing as-is and are simply adding some stone veneer on the existing surfaces they may not care to see it. 

If it is a woodburning fireplace, there are circumstances that warrant inspections and permits. Modifications to the hearth extension, mantle and surround all have applicable codes.

On remodels the way I treat this is if you're making modifications to an existing fireplace you bring the portions that are being modified up to code. If you're working on the hearth I'd make you bring it up to code dimensions but if that's all you're doing I'm not going to measure the smoke chamber that is 20 years old to see if it meets current code. 

Very interpretive issue. Make the phonecall and they'll let you know what to do, if anything.


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## mike6x7

I've had 4 houses and have always been a DIY junkie. I will research how to do something if I've never done it before ( Duh, that's why I'm HERE), and I will build it to code. But every house I've owned has gotten a deck and new flooring, a couple I put in recessed lighting, one I remodeled two of the bathrooms, replace some windows, etc, etc. and never even thought about getting a permit and I never had a problem selling the houses or had an inspector question the house having a deck now that it didn't when I bought it.
Yes, Inspectors are there to make sure the job is done right. IMO that responsibility falls on the person doing the job, i.e. me. I don't want my house to burn down, or fall down for that matter, so it's my job to do it right. Years ago when permits were cheap, they were for safety. now they are just fundraisers


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## gripp2020

*I know, I know, buuuuuttttt.......*

I live in (around atlanta) Ga. My county wants a purmit for EVERYTHING!! My basement is 1600 sq. I will do as much of it as i can myself. I do have one of the guys who built my house (2 years ago) to help me frame it. I will get licensed guys to "help" with electrical and plumbing. I plan to do everything to code, just not pull the permit for it. My friend lives in the county next to mine, and his county does not require them to get one but mine does. Also, my house was built (of course) with a permit for the house with the basement so if im only adding NONE LOADBEARING WALLS what the heck is their problem?? The code reads 


*"The fee, rounded to the nearest dollar, is calculated as follows: $41.44 multiplied by the total heated square feet and the result then multiplied by $0.006, and $6 per $1,000 of estimated construction cost for each unheated square foot (minimum fee is $30), plus a $25 Certificate of Occupancy fee. Fees must be paid at time of permit issuance."*


Ok mine came out to about 450 to 500 bucks. I said thanks and left the office. The other problem with this is that i was told that it will ADD another $300 to my monthly payment. Taxes are high as hell here any way, for real. I CANT AFFORD THAT!! I was thinking i would video and take pics to show what was done at the beginning of each part in case i got caught and need to prove it so that i dont have to pull the damn walls down. I am paying for this out of my own part time job money so i dont have the money to waist. I went to HD and Lowes and lots of guys finnished theirs and didnt pull permits.

Just picking your brain pans...


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## Scuba_Dave

If caught they can make you take it down to bare studs so they see how everything is framed & wired
I doubt many inspectors would take the pics & video as proof since you avoided the inspection process


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## gripp2020

Ok, is it possible to get a permit just for individual parts. I dont know how long this will take since im paying for it myself. Can i get a permit now JUST for framming? Then later on get one for elec. HVAC and so on? OR can i hire my own licensed inspecter to serve as proff the job was done to code??


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## Scuba_Dave

You would need to check with your local building Dept
Here the electric permit/inspection is seperate from the rest
Order of inspections here:
Rough electric
Rough framing
Rough plumbing
Insulation

Final:
includes wiring/plumbing & Fire Inspection
Gas inspection (I don't have gas)


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## Sheila4467

Back in 1985, when I moved into my new home, my new neighbor was about to put up a huge deck, over 75' long and 14' deep, with a small deck that came out of his second floor bedroom. 

It was then that I told him about the big fight that was going on in the local paper, about the new building codes.
Everyone was mad about the changes, but they said, "You build it without the permits, and you will have to take it down."

Sure enough, he built it anyway. It was up for exactly 4 days. 

Then they came, and made him take it down. One of our other neighbors told on him. 

After taking all the cemented 4x4's out of the ground, and taking it all apart, he never built it the size it was originally again. He never even finished the deck to his bedroom either. He had to go to the Planning Office dozens of times, and had to do a million things they required of him from then on. It was a nightmare. He spent more time having to make up for what he had done, than he had time for rebuilding the deck.

Too bad too, it really was a beautiful deck that wrapped around the house. I doubt that Dave will ever build again without getting a permit and the Planning Comm's OK!


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## Scuba_Dave

Here I was able to just pull the framing permit for my addition
I've been working on the framing for a year & have yet to pull the permit for electric & start that


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## gripp2020

does pulling a permit just for framming STILL increase your taxes? Or is it just when the basement is finnished that it will raise the property taxes. Like i said earlier. I cant afford an additional $300 to my mortgage. If i can get a permit for individual parts that is a better way to go.


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## Scuba_Dave

Contact your local building Dept
Usually ANY improvement to your home CAN increase your taxes
If you don't want your taxes to increase then don't improve your home


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## Knucklez

> Back in 1985, when I moved into my new home, my new neighbor was about to put up a huge deck, over 75' long and 14' deep, with a small deck that came out of his second floor bedroom.
> 
> It was then that I told him about the big fight that was going on in the local paper, about the new building codes.
> Everyone was mad about the changes, but they said, "You build it without the permits, and you will have to take it down."
> 
> Sure enough, he built it anyway. It was up for exactly 4 days.
> 
> Then they came, and made him take it down. One of our other neighbors told on him.
> 
> After taking all the cemented 4x4's out of the ground, and taking it all apart, he never built it the size it was originally again. He never even finished the deck to his bedroom either. He had to go to the Planning Office dozens of times, and had to do a million things they required of him from then on. It was a nightmare. He spent more time having to make up for what he had done, than he had time for rebuilding the deck.
> 
> Too bad too, it really was a beautiful deck that wrapped around the house. I doubt that Dave will ever build again without getting a permit and the Planning Comm's OK!


in a related story, every neighbour's window got egged.


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## Knucklez

we have articles running in the local paper talking about how people should get permits, what the value of that process is, how wonderful the staff are that want to help you .. etc etc.

then you go there with an application and you find a different story. you notice you fall into one of two groups

1) architect/builder job = no hassle

2) homeowner DIY = get hassled and frowned upon, and then more hassles

i fall into group 2). :wallbash:

but then a curious thing happens... the 2nd time you submit a permit for DIY you know what the city is looking for and you do a better job describing the project and communicating with the city pros. and the hassles are less. 

by the 3rd time you are finally treated with some respect (grudgingly) and things go smoother. :donatello:

i was under the impression that my drawings to scale with dimensions and on graph paper were not as good as pro's CAD drawing - but surely better than the back of the envelope sketches that the city must be getting from DIY'ers on a regular basis. so i wasn't expecting any problems. but what i learned from the process was:

*a)* nobody does work themselves, so no DIY is drawing plans and submitting. thus my permit application must have looked like mickey mouse compared to what city staff are used to seeing.

*b)* their job is NOT to tell you what you need to do to meet code. their job is to review and reject. ... _if , _and i stress _if, _they tell you what is wrong with your permit then it is solely out of the goodness of their hart. otherwise, its up to you to figure it out (and they suggest you hire an engineer to draft the plans). 

Knucklez


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## MBH210

i have a question about installing rounded door hinges


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## Scuba_Dave

I guess I went overboard then with 3 different software programs for design
I submitted detailed plans, plus a plot plan with all dimensions on the plan
I had a computer generated blueprint of each floor & each wall
Plus I had someone draw up ($100) a 3D sketch of what the house would look like after construction

My biggest hurdle was the Conservation Committee due to a stream on the property
And that paperwork/requirements were State/Federal requirements
They (Town) had no problem with the work I wanted to do
But they explained unless it was all outlined correctly & approved by Conservation then the State could actually make me take it down even if the Town approved it


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## Knucklez

sounds like you did your homework. you set a good example for all of us DIY'ers :thumbsup:


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## Sheila4467

Years ago, in Southern Maryland, you could build almost anything without a permit, however when the codes were about to change, I believe the State looked for every code ever created, to include into the new rules. 

Since most in So. MD are DIY'ers, it was not taken lightly that things were changing. Everyone complained, wrote their Congressman, County Commissioners, the editors of all the local Newspapers, and you couldn't even shop for groceries, without hearing the latest complaints about the new building codes. 

Eventually, things calmed down, and even though MD'ers still feel that there are too many building codes, we do agree, that changing the codes, was a very important thing to do. 

It's nice to know, that if you purchased a home, built after about 1977, no one was going to have to worry about shabby wiring, plumbing, or anything else. 

To be honest, homes built before that time were fine too, but the codes did MAKE everyone live with safety and better building. That's a "Good Thing"
__________________________________________

HOWEVER........................

Now that it's MY TURN to have to face the "Permit's People" I shake every time I even think of it. 

My project really is ME doing this myself!
It's not that I will be, the perfect definition of a DIYer, but that I will be doing as much as I am able to do, alone. (decision wise)

Yes, I'm going to have to get a lot of Permits, a lot more than I thought, or they listed, but not more than I knew had to be done, job wise.
(many attachments to the permit applications)

Funny, this is the only part that actually scares me. 

Thank goodness I found this forum! Someone to talk to, can make all the difference sometimes.

Your experiences here, help me put things into perspective, and gives me a "heads up" on what to expect. It helps so much!


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## fireguy

The % of hack contractors is about equal to the % of hack inspectors. Recently, the owner of the sheet metal shop I work with and I went to a code class in Salem. Out of all the contractors in the State of Oregon who install commercial kitchen exhaust systems & fire suppression systems, only Steve & I were in attendance. Steve & I work with about 20 fire and building inspectors. Only 1 attended the class. Fortunalty, he will be the inspector on our next exhaust system/fire system install. I am constantly amazed at the ignorance of those in the building trades, at all levels. And I am even more amazed and dismayed at the lack of code enforcement. 

Next April, the State of Oregon will have new amendments to the specialty mechanical code & a new Fire Code. I will spend about $300.00 for the new code books. There will be classes available. Steve and I will be in attendance, but we do not expect to see any other contractors in class, again. But I do expect to see some of the inspectors I work with. That helps when it is time for job inspections. 

Before starting a project, go to the inspectors office and ask questions, lots of questions. Ask to see the code book. If you are a contractor, you should already have the code books. If you are not a contractor, they should make copies for you. There may be a charge for copies. Study the codes and then go back and ask questions. What may be common sense to someone in the trades, may not be common sense to a home owner. If the inspector does not seem to know what he is talking about, ask for another inspector. Document everything you are told. If you are lucky you will get an inspector like the termite from KC. If you get the other type of inspector, ask for another inspector.


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## Sheila4467

In So. MD you have to collect the codes yourself! NOT a very easy job, and at first, I couldn't get anyone that even knew which ones I needed! 

The best information I finally got was from the Library. They have all of them right there on two connected tables, two sets lined up together, but also opposite each other, so you have two sides to use. The table is a long one, and the books sit in the middle and take up about half of the tables. It has dozens of sections, and even if you know what you want, good luck at finding what you want, or trying to understand them. They are very complicated.

THAT is when I learned the value of an inspector.
I still fear Permits, but have learned that if I want to do anyting, I better get a to know an inspector and make friends. It took 3 actual appointments to find the one I could stand, but he showed me he would take some time for me, and that is all I was looking for, since that is the biggest problem here. Rushed inspectors, with no time for anyone!

I had to agree, I'm not going to get anywhere without them, so I decided to take a gulp, and be thankful that there is someone there to help, even if they have little time for me. I then added a lot of extra inspector time to my time line. So.......... If it's on the timetable, I gotta follow it!

Never Give Up! (best lesson I ever learned)


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## Aggie67

thekctermite said:


> So many engineers prostitute themselves out on this sort of thing:yes:


KC, I've got a new one for you. This is an example of the lower reaches of the industry we're in.

It's 10:20pm one night this week, and I get a call from a builder I ran into over the summer. Not even a client. He has to respond to a suit by the end of the next day. He gives me no details what so ever. No address, nothing, just a brief "I'm getting sued, and the architect is getting sued, but the architect has O&E insurance and I don't." He says "I need a letter from a PE by 4pm tomorrow or I'm screwed. My lawyer will call you in a few minutes." It's 10:20 at night. I tried to tell him the truth, that it's 10:20 the night before, I'd need to know what the issue was and do a site visit, etc, and there isn't any guarantee that you wouldn't be at fault, and by the way I have meetings already booked Friday up to 2pm, so I can't help you. "You don't need to do any of that, just talk to my lawyer."

(Long and short of it, though, the lawyer never calls me.)


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## fishtale

can someone help me out. i keep gettin mixed answers about permits.
i am remodeling my bathroom.(almost done)all the way to the studs.only had to move the sink plumbing up a few inches. and the tub water pipes needed a few elbows to back it up a few inches to make room for the jucuzzi tub pipes. i also ran 2 15amp dedicated lines for the pump and heater.
what should i have a permit for???
thanks for any info.
jim

also. where can i finf out how to post pics??
thanks


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## Scuba_Dave

Contact your local building Dept, they will tell you what permits you should have pulled before you started
Plumbing, electric & framing most likely
May be the same permit in some cases, here electric is a seperate permit


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## Sheila4467

To post a photo, you first click on Post Reply, and after you finish write your message, you go down the page to Additional Options and click where it says Manage Attachments, then click the brouse button and download the photo from your computer. Tthen you click to close that window, hit the "submit reply" button, and it will be in the post.

As far as the permits go, every state is different, so you will have to find out from your state. It's not really possible to give all the details on each request, but it is important to have the infomation from your state, to make sure you won't have to pull it out, or correct it, after you finished.


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## mike6x7

Sheila4467 said:


> Back in 1985, when I moved into my new home, my new neighbor was about to put up a huge deck, over 75' long and 14' deep, with a small deck that came out of his second floor bedroom.
> 
> It was then that I told him about the big fight that was going on in the local paper, about the new building codes.
> Everyone was mad about the changes, but they said, "You build it without the permits, and you will have to take it down."
> 
> Sure enough, he built it anyway. It was up for exactly 4 days.
> 
> Then they came, and made him take it down. One of our other neighbors told on him.
> 
> After taking all the cemented 4x4's out of the ground, and taking it all apart, he never built it the size it was originally again. He never even finished the deck to his bedroom either. He had to go to the Planning Office dozens of times, and had to do a million things they required of him from then on. It was a nightmare. He spent more time having to make up for what he had done, than he had time for rebuilding the deck.
> 
> Too bad too, it really was a beautiful deck that wrapped around the house. I doubt that Dave will ever build again without getting a permit and the Planning Comm's OK!


 
Sounds like your neighbors need to mind their own business


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## Scuba_Dave

mike6x7 said:


> Sounds like your neighbors need to mind their own business


No, sounds like he should have gone for the permit to find out what he was *allowed* to build


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## Sheila4467

The sad part of this is, he lived next to the only woman in the neighborhood that was so nasty, even the most forgiving could not stand her. She was a mean woman, but because I knew that, and what was going on in the papers at the time, I tried to tell him to get permits first, but he didn't listen.

He was young and a go getter, did it his way. 

I can thankfully say that he is a lot more grown up now, and doesn't do a thing without a permit today. 

As far as my old neighbors go, she and David are still there, and he is doing well, and she is still as nasty as before.

I have to say, I have met a lot of people in my day, but none as mean as she was. She still picks on David, but he has learned to deal with her, and I can't say that he has grown up in that department yet, and I think she is a little sorry that she told on him, because he torments her to this day too.

Gorgeous neighborhood, great neighbors, and a standoff that has lasted for over 22 years!!!:laughing:


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## Dave in Michigan

Hi, the original (first) post mentioned a site to check for permit information for different states, but I just checked and found that the link no longer works. Does anyone know if there is such a site to check?

Do I need a permit to hang those standard hanging ceilings in my basement?

Thanks!


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## sumrluv3

*Basement Permit questions*

I purchased my first home that had a room finished in the basement with out a permit. Does anyone know how that will effect me getting a permit to finish the rest of my basement? Will we be held responsible for the previous owners mistakes? 

Also, what is considered structural? I mean, in a basement you are not actually changing the house just puttin up drywall and subfloor. My space is already wired for electric so I don't find a permit necessary.


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## Scuba_Dave

sumrluv3 said:


> I purchased my first home that had a room finished in the basement with out a permit. Does anyone know how that will effect me getting a permit to finish the rest of my basement? Will we be held responsible for the previous owners mistakes?
> 
> Also, what is considered structural? I mean, in a basement you are not actually changing the house just puttin up drywall and subfloor. My space is already wired for electric so I don't find a permit necessary.


You will need to contact your building Dept
Yes you can be held responsible for unpermitted work
You own the house now & any problems/issues


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## kwikfishron

*Permit's who needs them*

I’d like to hear more discussion on this site about the importance of “Pulling Permits”.

The permit process is not your local government wanting to squeeze more money out of you, it’s to keep you and others safe.

The permit process (usually) is simple.

You have an idea, then You or a Drafter turns that idea into a plan. More times than not you don’t need a Engineer a Drafter has enough knowledge in their database to create drawings of your project to submit.

You submit your plan to your local Building Department for review. They either say, “looks good go ahead and proceeded“, or “looks good but we would like to see this 2x6 a 2x8, change that and then you can proceeded“, or they say “ No way, your not zoned for that”.

You have been approved now you can build.:thumbup: 

During the building process there are inspections to make sure you used the approved beam, actually installed the hardware, didn’t overload the circuit before you cover everything with drywall and siding.

Why? 

To keep you and others safe. To make sure you don’t burn your house down. To make sure the wedding party photo on your new second story deck with the beautiful view is just that, a photo and not a live shot on the evening news.

Time and time again people are asking questions on this site, showing pictures of their remodels in progress and now their stumped, getting all kinds of answers, most good, some scary. Questions that would never have had to have been asked here if they had pull a permit.

The first skill any DIY’r should learn before they start ripping their house apart is the “Planning Process” which will take you to the “Permit Process” which will give you the visuals you’ll need for a safe and successful project.

For just a few hundred up front you will learn more, build better, and 
possibly have saved thousands of dollars and even lives.


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## moorewarner

I heartily second this.

I think a lot of folks think the permit is to be avoided. That the building division is going to look at them and say "your not a processional, go hire someone" and that is going to cost them a bunch of money. That is not the way it works.

The building division wants a correct result, and the pride I know folks take in doing stuff themselves indicates to me that they want the same thing. The building division is actually another source of info on how to get that *correct* result *you* want, just like an architect/engineer/draftsman, or God help you the Interweb. :laughing:

In my city, for my own home, I can actually pull plumbing and electric permits. The city has a basic skills/understanding test that needs to be passed but after that, short of rewiring my whole house, I can do most anything.

The point is, just as you come on this site and try to answer questions about is this or that right, and are prepared to take some internet advice; right in your own location there is a great resource of info that I think most people are afraid to utilize.

The truth is forget about it being the law, if you want to play contractor then *conduct* yourself as a contractor. You feel as though you can do the job as well as a professional contractor then prove it, to yourself and to the same folks (your local Building Division) everyone out here humpin' it has to.

If your plan is correct enough to pass muster with skilled knowledgeable contractors then it is also correct enough to pass muster with your local Building Division. The cost for that process is nominal compared to your material cost or the money you are saving by doing your own labor.

If your not prepared to do that then you're not prepared to do the job you're contemplating.


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## user69544

We have to get permits to drill water wells. It is necessary to protect the customer, aquifer and myself.

One odd thing is the price difference county to county for the same thing.

Bay $256.25
Clare $164
Midland, Gladwin and Arence $159


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## racebum

oregon is easy, they have online handouts

http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/pdf/2672.pdf

i checked on this before i did my roof project. no permit was needed to reroof


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## adamnoel

*Building Codes...public domain?*

I am contemplating building a deck. I have been daydreaming, studying, designing, searching for answers, shopping for product, starting to buy tools, and already called the Diggers Hotline and got my yard flags and OKs from the local utilities...

One thing still troubling me that this site specifically should address (and maybe it's hiding in here somewhere) is where to go to get the codes for your municipality. I scoured the web of the county/city/planning/permits dept to only find the address that I need to go to apply for a permit (location and hours are the most convenient, of course) and a FAQ section with a 2-page "Residential Deck Guidelines" a link to the AWC DCA6-09 and references that the city adopted the IRC 2006 codes. Ok, so my taxes pay for all the bureaucracy to make sure we are safe in our community and I feel that should cover the cost of providing a copy of the building codes.

I understand capitalism and copyright protection and respect the International Code Council's mission. However, I am very frustrated by the lack of information and guidance on how the tax-paying citizens of a public community like myself can adhere to the code without going to a private company to buy their information. I saw somewhere (probably on the wicked-pedia) that there was an area of concern regarding copyright protection and codes adopted by a municipality becoming public domain...that's it...a discussion about discussions about the codes.

If necessary, I guess I'll fork over another $100 to ICC to make sure I build my deck safely...after I go through the detailed website of amendments and make the changes indicated, complete with chapter, page, paragraph and line numbers showing strike-throughs and replacement wording for the publication...that I have to buy...

Any guidance would be appreciated. 
Sleepless in Omaha


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## Big Bob

*see link below*

http://www.dca.state.fl.us/fbc/thecode/Code_Dev_2007_supplement/IRC06_FL03comp2.pdf

IRC 2006 is on the left side... changes for FL 2007 on the right side 
238 pages.... 

As you noted IRC 2006 local approved supplement is on Omaha, NE city web site.

hope this helps..


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## KUIPORNG

*A live experience I am involving with and without permit*

Long story short, a true experience:

I sold my house to party A, party A sold the house to party B. My house has a renovated basement with permit applied. Party A also has a renovated basement without permit. 

All went well for a few weeks after the signing of all agreements of buy and sell by all parties.

after a month or so... party B don't want to buy party A's house anymore...probably because of price of house dropped substanially... so party B found a way out... goto cityhall and find out party A's basement is without permit.. so party B got his deposit and walk out the deal... party A want to walk out the deal for the house I sold him as well..but couldn't because our basement has permit...

now we are negotiating the compensation .....

imagine if I don't have permit in my basement.... I could easily lost tens of thousands of dollars in this situations.....

so my advice to everyone:

get the permit just for this poltical reason...apart from the safty issue.


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## Hohn

In my locale (Indiana), I believe anything over $300 requires a permit.

Get those permits! They are only expensive when you DON'T get them!


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## Sheila4467

A small 32 X 32 home, will take everything, including the size of your underware, to build in Maryland. Maryland has changed so much in the past 10 years that, a permit is not the biggest problem anymore. 

You HAVE to have an Architect, no exceptions, you have to put out MANY Thousands of dollars BEFORE you can even apply for a permit, and to make it plain and simple, Maryland is a nightmare when it comes to building. 

I want permits, I will abide by the rules, but if you really want to either do it yourself, or at least be the contractor, it turns into a FIGHT TO THE FINISH.

As a contractor you can say that it's simple, and that is true, FOR YOU, but being on the other side, I have to say that has not been MY experience. 

I have sat in offices watching this happen for too long to say that getting permits, AS A PERSON, AND NOT A CONTRACTOR, IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE HERE.

Your years of experience is wonderful, but you have ONE VIEW. How often do you go up against an official as a novice? with an official that HAS to show that THEY ARE IN CHARGE AND YOU ARE STUPID?

You come as a person that is seasoned right from the start, and believe me, I have watched officials take advantage of people for years.

It's so bad, that people KNOW who the ego nuts are, and pass on the names to keep away from.

It's sick that those of us that are just trying to be a part of building our own home, have to deal with some that just want to make you jump up and down, and only AFTER they are tired of you, finally help.

I DO play by the rules, and I would never start anything without a permit, but to say that it's easy, is NOT always the case.

You pay between $2,500.00 to $5,000.00 up front, that they HOLD, just to put one temp. drain pipe on your property, that has to be removed and reinstalled by a professional, and they keep the money for 8 months after that. AND NO PERMIT UNTIL IT'S DONE, AND THEY INSPECT IT. Then you have to start all over and have a certified professional re-install it.
How simple is that?

Being a do-it-yourselfer is not as easy as it used to be.

Last, I finally figured out, that what I needed was a "Point Man" and when I had a friend, a big guy, wearing his tool belt, and covered in local dirt, looking like a pro, do the talking for me, surprise! it went like clockwork.

Backward towns are something to deal with, and yes, parts of Maryland are still the "Man of the House" thinkers. 

Life is not the same everywhere you go, and Southern Maryland is one of them. NOT EVERYONE, but enough to make it a nightmare sometimes.

I will always follow the rules, but that does not mean that it is easy.

Especially as a woman, talking to a know it all.


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## Shawnna

Sheila4467 said:


> Last, I finally figured out, that what I needed was a "Point Man" and when I had a friend, a big guy, wearing his tool belt, and covered in local dirt, looking like a pro, do the talking for me, surprise! it went like clockwork.
> 
> Backward towns are something to deal with, and yes, parts of Maryland are still the "Man of the House" thinkers.
> 
> Life is not the same everywhere you go, and Southern Maryland is one of them. NOT EVERYONE, but enough to make it a nightmare sometimes.
> 
> I will always follow the rules, but that does not mean that it is easy.
> 
> Especially as a woman, talking to a know it all.


Best post I've read here all day!! Thank you for giving me a good laugh, and a knowing smile.

:thumbsup:


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## SeniorCitizen

I live in Westchester County NY (right above Manhattan) where a permit's needed for most everything, so chuckled at someone getting a fine of $1,800. In last year one neighbor got hit with a $10,000 fine for not enough smoke detectors, installing a sink in basement w/o a permit, installing a wall where one wasn't before, and finishing one corner of the basement to make a sleeping room. Another neighbor was hit with a $32,000 fine, that was reduced to $25,000 if he paid it by a certain time. 

Install new electrical wiring, a permit is needed. New plumbing lines, a permit is needed. A new furnace or a new deck, ditto. Replacing a roof, a permit isn't needed. However, if you change the slope you'd need a permit. 

Many folks complain about building codes but it's in the building codes, and most laws are in place to protect us. If I'm ever in doubt about something, I open the Code Book and read. ... just learned a smoke alarm is not only needed outside every sleeping room, they're now required INSIDE the room also. ... so goes life.


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## racebum

some of these states sound nuts. ours is pretty common sense. we can replace sheetrock, roofing, cabinets and a whole host of stuff without one. it's only structural they require one. with roofing the sheathing issue is to make sure you use appropriately material and nail correctly with the right nails. walls, permit is to check joist attachment, falling walls aren't in the citys best interest. 

i bought a house awhile back that had a few non code, non permit things done. 20 amp breakers on 14-2 wire {dangerous} a wall built that did not attach to ceiling joists and a roofing install that was plain horrible. i've since corrected the issues but the electrical one did make me want to slap the previous owner, it was bad enough he over breakered the wire, what's worse is he ran the wire nearly 50', double bad.


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## Knucklez

a friend wanted to build a simple 5x8 porch with a roof (just replace what already exists today). the permit was in excess of $500. the material for this job was $800. decided not to do the job because of permit cost and just kept what already exists there. and guess what, what is already there is probably LESS safe than what the new porch would have been .. but this old porch is acceptable by code since it is grandfathered. stupid rules and unfair pricing just made life LESS safe. 

i think we all agree that permits are useful for many reasons. we also all agree that we would benefit politically, safety, and legally if we have them. 

now the last question that needs to be hammered out.

what is a FAIR price for this service? 
free? (i.e. let taxes pay for it) 
based on your material cost? 
less if you have pre-engineered plans?

Knucklez


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## Scuba_Dave

Wow...that's a lot
The permit fee for my 24x36 garage/great room/walk up attic was only $545


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## frenchelectrican

I was reading thru this section and I know I did see quite few peoples mention electicial from time to time and of course I am Electrician by trade and I have automatically have to pull the permits and I do this everyday so almost like cake walk.

I have one customer some time back he was not a happy camper when he learn that I get the permit for this particair job { a basement bedroom } and he say WTF that cost alot of money for other things that is not related to electrical I expain to him that the building code is very specfic on what it cover and the only way I can do that is have *ALL* the proper permits covered first before I do anything.

Majtory of Licensed tradepersons will know what to do with permits and they will pull proper one.

I know many of you are DIY'er but PLEASE .,,, PLEASE make sure you have proper permit and it up to date I know it will cost you some money but in long run as other members explaing here to save your butt.

One house I have done not too long ago in France we have alot of rules to follow and this person remodel the kitchen but did NOT read the electrical codes very clear and that person called me in for simple repair and I indefity it and it was not permited job so I put my work on hold and get proper permit to get it fix right { the issue was the Ring circuit it is NOT allowed in France at all } the result was have to take all the cabents and tear the wall apart and redo the wiring to proper one and have inspector check it and pass it.


So you can see why if you do any pretty good size project make sure you talk to the inspector or local building department first before you do anything so you can get all the base covered.

Merci.
Marc


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## Knucklez

i hear you and totally agree. 

this is my beef.. if it takes the inspector 5 minutes to show up to my house, shake the meter, give a quick look to see if the PVC has been strapped to the house properly and then leave.. why is my permit over $100? 

that is $100 for 5 minutes of work.

????

on the plus side, the electrical inspector was great. really accomodating to my wild schedule. 

Knucklez


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## Jim F

Knucklez said:


> i hear you and totally agree.
> 
> this is my beef.. if it takes the inspector 5 minutes to show up to my house, shake the meter, give a quick look to see if the PVC has been strapped to the house properly and then leave.. why is my permit over $100?
> 
> that is $100 for 5 minutes of work.
> 
> ????
> 
> on the plus side, the electrical inspector was great. really accomodating to my wild schedule.
> 
> Knucklez


I had a 200 amp service and breaker box installed at a cost of 1200 3-4 weeks ago. 100 of that was for the electrical inspector. I have not seen the electrical inspector yet. If he has been by he definitely did not inspect the new breaker box in the basement.


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## Jim F

Jim F said:


> I had a 200 amp service and breaker box installed at a cost of 1200 3-4 weeks ago. 100 of that was for the electrical inspector. I have not seen the electrical inspector yet. If he has been by he definitely did not inspect the new breaker box in the basement.


I just received the certificate from the electrical inspector today from the guy that put in the new service. I guess they don't need to inspect the breaker box. Either that or he let himself into my basement. I guess I'd better check that bulkhead lock.:laughing:


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## alecmcmahon

I am starting a remodel of my basement of a house i bought this year. The basement was ' half finished ' It has a section on the back where the washer / dryer / boiler / comode is that is unfinished.

Due to the 70's style decor ( ugly carpet / panel walls / drop ceiling, etc ) I decided to rip that out to put up 2x4's and drywall, as well as re-do the electrical outlets and lights/ drop ceiling, etc.

There is currently a toilet in the basement, just sort of there. it's not in a room, encolsed, no sink, etc. Just a bowl. 

Upon finishing the basement i'd like to frame in a laundry room and a bathroom, maybe even a half bath with a shower in it.


I plan on doing all the work myself, not sure if i want to pull a permit for the stuff like putting up drywall and updating all the basement wiring, but am I right assuming that i'll NEED to pull a permit for adding a bathroom in order to be able to list my house as having 2 bathrooms when i go to sell it? 

Also, In NJ... Does livable square footage ( like on a realesate listing ) include the finished basement? I think I read something along the lines of in nj the state does not count any livable space in the basement unless there is a seperate entrance to the basement or something?

And lastly, If i bring in an inspector to inspect for example the plumbing in the bathroom, can he cite me/fine me / give me trouble over new electrical work/ new studs/ etc

thanks


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## southernmom

Here is what are county says about permits. I found it by typing in my search engine madison county alabama building permits. At least they are right to the point on this one.

Beginning June 3rd, 2009 changes take effect on permit requirement and fees. 
If you construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish, or change the occupancy of a building or other residential structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done *whenever the reasonable cost of the material and labor for such work is in excess of One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), you shall first make application to the Inspection Department and obtain the required permits.* Whenever the work being performed includes any construction, alteration, addition, or modification to the plumbing drainage system, or requires disconnection of the electrical system in any way whatsoever, any owner or authorized agent shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit regardless of the reasonable cost of the material and labor for such work. Other work requiring permits and inspections include: roofing, re-roofing, window replacement, siding, swimming pools and spas, and *all commercial work regardless of cost*. 
If you have questions as to whether your project requires permits, please call our office prior to the commencement of any work.


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## rightnwrong

What is the news on your neighbor now meiersenterprises?


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