# Tracing doorbell wires behind wall



## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

A device used to find wires in the wall is a two piece tone generator. One piece has a clip on wire or jaw and you need to have at least one wire end exposed to clip onto. The other piece is a hand held "receiver" with an antenna that you move about the wall as you would use a stud finder.

If your tone generator is powerful enough and the wires are arranged just the right way, you could clip one unit to the wires behind someone else's doorbell button and that would "energize" a whole host of wires and if you are lucky, then the wire you are looking for is included for your receiver to pick up.

The tone will probably not go through transformers or chime units. So the entire AC electrical system will probably not be energized (make things very confusing) but at the same time, depending on where you clip on, probably not all parts of the doorbell system will be energized.

There is no shock hazard introduced by the tone generator.

In most condominiums and cooperatives the wiring that runs in exterior walls and the walls between units are a common or collective responsibility. It would then be the board of directors or managing agent who would be responsible for making the repairs happen at no direct cost to you. Check the declaration and bylaws and rules documents.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Remove what's there and install a wireless one.
Might take a whole 1/2 hour to install.


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## Chris130 (Feb 3, 2014)

joecaption said:


> Remove what's there and install a wireless one.
> Might take a whole 1/2 hour to install.


After having faced a very similar situation when I moved into my house, I agree 100% with Joe... Just forget that old setup (remove wires where you can, disconnect from power, etc), and put in a wireless system - I got a simple, cheap, bare-bones system off-the-shelf from HD, and it's been working like a champ for several years now. 

It took me a while to finally find my transformer to make that disconnect - it was hidden over by a junction box in a non-intuitive corner of my basement.

In a colder environment especially, it helps to use lithium batts in the outside buttons of a wireless system.

Cheers, Chris


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Sorry but I do NOT want a wireless system if I can avoid it. I have to be honest. But thanks anyway, for your feedback.


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

You have three options. 
1) Try and find the old (buying or borrowing a tone generator) and hopefuly the wires and transformer are still good.
2) Install new wires and transformer.
C) Wireless. 
I'm all about economy of movement (lazy). I'd go wireless. Keep us up to date. Pete


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

An idea crossed my mind.

1) What if I can trace the doorbell button wires from the first floor (the entrance of the building) to the basement (I'm assuming they go to the basement because I cannot see how they can go up to all the individual condos). If I find these wires I then make sure they go to my circuit breaker box in the basement.

2) I get a new doorbell and transformer for my condo on the 3rd floor. Since I have a new sub-panel in my kitchen, can I wire the doorbell to the sub-panel or do I have to wire it to the circuit breaker box in the basement?

Any feedback will be highly appreciated.


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## petey_c (Jul 25, 2008)

Here's the way the wires run in a typical doorbell set up. Doorbell button ↔ transformer ↔ chimes. 
1) You have to have wires going from the button on the first floor going to the transformer (where ever that is, usually near the panel), then to the chimes, in your case on the third floor. 
2) You can put the transformer near the subpanel, but then you'll still need to get wires from there to the button. 
3) Wireless sounds like less trouble. (no pun intended) :whistling2:


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

You may not do your own work or install things (wires, etc.) in common areas of the condominium complex unless you have specific permission.

You may not install another transformer in the doorbell circuit if the existing transformer is still a part of the circuit.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

Just for the sake of argument, finding the wires in the wall will not be of any use to getting your door bell up and running. For one thing they may be OK in which case you will use them again. And if they are not OK then you just abandon them where they are and run new wire. You say half of twelve work while the other half do not. Perhaps there are 2 transformers and one is bad. The array of buttons pictured suggests the association is not real picky. I would start by checking for voltage myself.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

petey_c,

Thank you very much for your feedback, although it's not what I wanted to hear. 

I've just come back from the basement. I was exploring the area right under the doorbell buttons on the first floor. 

I found the transformer! It's actually above one of the circuit breaker boxes in the basement immediately adjacent to mine. Our basement is divided into 4 sections.

There are 6 condo units on my half of the condo building. This means that there are 2 hallways. Each hallway has 3 units in a vertical row. 

When I went to the basement and checked under the area where the doorbell buttons are, I noticed 4 wires going in one direction and 4 wires going in another direction. I didn't understand this since I'd assume there would be 6 wires in total. Do you know why this is the case? Is one wire for the transformer?

In any case, the bunch of wires for my row of units went a short distance along the basement wall then entered the floor board above the basement. When I went to the hallway, above the basement and approximated where the wires would come out from, it seemed to be inside the wall that divides the two vertical hallways (with 3 condos each). 

What this means is that the wires probably travel upward and branch off into their respective units. In my case, since I'm on the top floor (3rd) I hope they come up to the attic for this is the only way I'll be able to spot them. 

My next goal is to go back to the blown-insulation filled attic then check the area that is vertically above the spot in the basement where the wires enter the floorboard.

Below are some photos.

The first one shows the wires coming from the area below the doorbell buttons in the basement. The second one is of the 3 wires joining together with a 4th one that comes from the transformer. The third one shows the transformer (above the circuit breaker box).

Now if I can only find the wires that are hopefully above my 3rd floor condo...


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

Everything I've done in the common area has been with the permission of the trustees. Also, I've always pulled a permit for my work.



AllanJ said:


> You may not do your own work or install things (wires, etc.) in common areas of the condominium complex unless you have specific permission.
> 
> You may not install another transformer in the doorbell circuit if the existing transformer is still a part of the circuit.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Easier to just get a wireless doorbell unit. If you cannot find where the wire is nicked or broken, or cannot pull a new run. It could be cut or nicked anywhere along the run.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

stripedbass said:


> Everything I've done in the common area has been with the permission of the trustees. Also, I've always pulled a permit for my work.


Unless you live in an area that requires low voltage permits. This type of work does not need a permit. Try replacing the doorbell button, bell and transformer first. It could be any of those that are bad. You can get a Fox & Hound tone set, for around $40.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

You're making progress. The wires from the door bell switches appear to be 2 pair cables so each one can service two buttons. 2X3=6 as we see in the outside picture. Do you have a multimeter? The reason I ask is the first thing you need to figure out is if there is voltage available to your circuit. Are you sure there is only one transformer that serves all 12 units? This seems like a rather large load for the single transformer shown in your picture.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

PoleCat,

All I can tell from tracing the different wires coming from the transformer is that it services 6 units plus 3 more, so 9 in total. I say this because the wires from the transformer went to my basement and another wire went to the basement where the transformer is located. And a third wire went to yet another basement (each basement is below 3 units).



PoleCat said:


> You're making progress. The wires from the door bell switches appear to be 2 pair cables so each one can service two buttons. 2X3=6 as we see in the outside picture. Do you have a multimeter? The reason I ask is the first thing you need to figure out is if there is voltage available to your circuit. Are you sure there is only one transformer that serves all 12 units? This seems like a rather large load for the single transformer shown in your picture.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

The transformer is between the button and the bell/buzzer. One pair of conductors will go out to each of them. The wires you see have at least four separate conductors in them, maybe more. You need to have access to the ends of these wires to verify what is going where. You will find that there are two wires attached to your button and the picture shows that you have two in your home. The object is to verify these two sets of conductors *AT* the transformer's location.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

You want to go about this in such a manner as to not burn up the transformer. (if it is not already burnt up)


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

To get a handle on this you need to identify the two wires on the transformer that are connected to the 120V supply. This is the primary side of the transformer. The secondary side is the lower voltage side that will be supplying the doorbell circuit(s).


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

From the secondary winding of the transformer there are two wires/connection points. Sometimes there will be two screws on the surface to connect the circuit to, sometimes there are just a couple of wires coming out. At this point you will see exactly how many door bells are being run off of this transformer.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

One thing I know at this point is that my condo originally had 2 doorbell buttons. One was for the front door. The other was for the back door in my kitchen which leads out into a deck and the fire egress.

Does this make any sense in terms of the photos?

Below is a photo of my back door doorbell button. Needless to say, it doesn't work.



PoleCat said:


> From the secondary winding of the transformer there are two wires/connection points. Sometimes there will be two screws on the surface to connect the circuit to, sometimes there are just a couple of wires coming out. At this point you will see exactly how many door bells are being run off of this transformer.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Pole Cat, the transformer could have been sized to service all units. The problem the OP will have, is that if the wiring was installed during the build. They will be stapled inside the walls. They may have better luck either going with the Wireless unit, or finding an easier way to pull the bell chime wire (ie where the thermostat is at). The bell button is going to be harder. Since the structure has been resided.

When I redid my door bell wiring. I had to pull the siding out of the J-Channel, so I could run it behind the siding and down into the existing hole at the Rim Sill, to get it into the basement.

I would say for the OP. Go with separate transformers for each unit. Vs. one for all.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I can see using a snake to put new wiring for the button to the basement then connecting this wiring to my basement circuit breaker box. 

I can see installing a new transformer by my basement circuit breaker box.

I can see installing a new doorbell in my condo on the 3rd floor.

The hard part is getting the wiring from the basement to the 3rd floor. I can use the same route that I used for the sub-panel cable. The electrician ran the cable along a plumbing vent stack that started in the basement and ended above the roof. The only problem was that it took a while to get a snake (or fishing wire) from the gap where the vent stack went through the attic to the basement. Fortunately, the doorbell wires are not thick.

I really thought a sub-panel would help things but I guess when it comes to doorbells this is not the case.




gregzoll said:


> Pole Cat, the transformer could have been sized to service all units. The problem the OP will have, is that if the wiring was installed during the build. They will be stapled inside the walls. They may have better luck either going with the Wireless unit, or finding an easier way to pull the bell chime wire (ie where the thermostat is at). The bell button is going to be harder. Since the structure has been resided.
> 
> When I redid my door bell wiring. I had to pull the siding out of the J-Channel, so I could run it behind the siding and down into the existing hole at the Rim Sill, to get it into the basement.
> 
> I would say for the OP. Go with separate transformers for each unit. Vs. one for all.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

gregzoll said:


> Pole Cat, the transformer could have been sized to service all units. The problem the OP will have, is that if the wiring was installed during the build. They will be stapled inside the walls. They may have better luck either going with the Wireless unit, or finding an easier way to pull the bell chime wire (ie where the thermostat is at). The bell button is going to be harder. Since the structure has been resided.
> 
> When I redid my door bell wiring. I had to pull the siding out of the J-Channel, so I could run it behind the siding and down into the existing hole at the Rim Sill, to get it into the basement.
> 
> I would say for the OP. Go with separate transformers for each unit. Vs. one for all.


I was going to suggest taking the pipe chase from the basement to the attic with a new wire if it is needed.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

That is why we are suggesting to just go with the wireless route. Now if you can get the wire ran. Instead of going with just the push button. Go with an Intercom type system. They make them with Blue-Tooth capability now. That way the resident can pick up their phone and ask who is there, vs. getting up if not able to get to the intercom at where it would be placed.

You may end up having to farm it out for a company that does Low voltage wiring. If you find that it costs more for the Fish Sticks.

Can you use the existing wiring as a pull wire. Or is it stapled inside the wall? Can you maybe just cut a hole about the size of a single gang box hole, so you can have a better visual when pulling the new wire up the wall.

There are many ways to skin this horse. It is just how much is your time worth, spending on this.

I did look up what multi-tap 120vAC-24vAC transformers are. They are a lot more than it would be worth, just setting up a Junction box with six transformers inside of it.

Here is one setup for MDU's (Multi-Dwelling Units). Vs. having individual door bells at the front entry. http://www.quantometrix.com/door_en...i_unit_apartment_building_doorbell_panels.htm Most of these can also be set up with a visual annunciation, in case you have someone living there that is deaf or has poor hearing.

Another company. http://www.doorentrysystemsforflats.com/


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

stripedbass said:


> One thing I know at this point is that my condo originally had 2 doorbell buttons. One was for the front door. The other was for the back door in my kitchen which leads out into a deck and the fire egress.
> 
> Does this make any sense in terms of the photos?
> 
> Below is a photo of my back door doorbell button. Needless to say, it doesn't work.


Yeah that was pretty common back then. The back door sounded different than the front door so you would know where to go. Deliveries where typically to the back door.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I really detest wireless doorbells. I don't know why. I guess I'm old fashioned.
I'd rather go without a doorbell (as I've done for 10 years) than get a wireless one.

But thanks for your feedback.



gregzoll said:


> That is why we are suggesting to just go with the wireless route. Now if you can get the wire ran. Instead of going with just the push button. Go with an Intercom type system. They make them with Blue-Tooth capability now. That way the resident can pick up their phone and ask who is there, vs. getting up if not able to get to the intercom at where it would be placed.
> 
> You may end up having to farm it out for a company that does Low voltage wiring. If you find that it costs more for the Fish Sticks.
> 
> ...


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Wireless units have gotten better. The problem is when you get channel interference with some units. Along with people forget to change out the battery at the button unit.

You may have to just find someone to fish the wires where you need them. That may mean pulling some siding out of the way, where you can get it fished behind and down into the basement.

Pulling the wiring up to the units, would be actually the easiest part. Just fish up where the thermostats are located.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

If you had gone wireless, you would be sitting on the couch right now sucking down a beer or two and playing with the wife.

Instead, you're playing with the wires and the wife is.........

Never mind.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

We don't have thermostats in our building.



gregzoll said:


> Wireless units have gotten better. The problem is when you get channel interference with some units. Along with people forget to change out the battery at the button unit.
> 
> You may have to just find someone to fish the wires where you need them. That may mean pulling some siding out of the way, where you can get it fished behind and down into the basement.
> 
> Pulling the wiring up to the units, would be actually the easiest part. Just fish up where the thermostats are located.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You are going to have problems with pulling new wiring then. I would find a common chase, for those condo's that sit above the other. If you have coax wiring in the wall, that was pulled at a later date. You may be able to attach a pull string to that, and use that for pulling the new buzzer wiring.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

Have the wires been verified as bad? i.e. open or shorted.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

The neighbor below me found the wiring for his doorbell and simply connected it to a new doorbell. Actually, I should say that the contractor who bought the condo did this before selling it to my neighbor. This was 4 years ago. I wish I had asked the contractor's electrician where he found the wires. I remember this electrician telling me all this but back then I wasn't thinking of my own non-functioning doorbell.

The neighbor on the same floor but in the adjacent hallway has a functioning doorbell with the same wiring.

I'm not sure I need new wiring. My biggest challenge is simply locating where it is: In the attic above my condo? In a wall? I simply don't know.



gregzoll said:


> You are going to have problems with pulling new wiring then. I would find a common chase, for those condo's that sit above the other. If you have coax wiring in the wall, that was pulled at a later date. You may be able to attach a pull string to that, and use that for pulling the new buzzer wiring.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

So far the only wires I've found are the ones from the doorbell buttons to the transformer in the basement and the same wires going up from the basement through a floorboard above the basement. 

I'm guessing these wires are good because half of the 12 doorbells in the building work. The ones that don't work, like mine, have probably been cut somewhere between the basement and the individual condos (I'm hoping my wires were cut on the 3rd floor). 

Someone on the 3rd floor like me, but on the other end of the building, had a doorbell that did not work. Also, his doorbell was in the hallway. But he was able to find the wires, re-directed them to the inside of his condo and connected them to a new doorbell he bought. Since this person used to be the superintendent when the building was a rental apartment building, I've been trying to rack his brain. Yesterday he finally vaguely recalled possibly wiring my doorbell but he wasn't sure since it was 20 years ago! 

If I can only find the wires in one of the 3rd floor walls of my condo or the attic above me, I could test them.

If an electrician used one of those wire tracking tools called a toner, doesn't he have to actually touch a wire for it to give off a sound? In other words, if a wire is buried under blown-in insulation in the attic or behind a wall, will the toner be able to detect anything?



PoleCat said:


> Have the wires been verified as bad? i.e. open or shorted.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

I bet that cold beer and wireless door bell are starting to sound better and better.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

stripedbass, they actually make Fox & Hound sets, where you attach different colored transmitters to each pair. Then you take the receiver and go through the pairs, marking them for which unit they go to.

Any that do not tone out, consider them as a damaged pair.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

ddawg16 said:


> I bet that cold beer and wireless door bell are starting to sound better and better.


Especially in this kind of situation. If there was a common chase to get the wires from the basement panel, to each condo for the bell chime. Then run from the basement panel to the doorbells.

It could take me maybe a couple of days busting this out. Working maybe 4-6 hours. If working with another person. I could have the wires pulled in one day. The next day would be hooking up the chimes. Then maybe a third to put in the outdoor button panel, that would allow for a clean install at the main entrance.

I never did do my backdoor, when I redid my doorbell for the house. We only use the front for deliveries or people coming to the house. All other traffic through the front door.

Plus if I am too lazy to get up. I can just look at the camera that is pointed towards the front porch. So I do not have to get up to see who is there.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

stripedbass said:


> So far the only wires I've found are the ones from the doorbell buttons to the transformer in the basement and the same wires going up from the basement through a floorboard above the basement.
> 
> I'm guessing these wires are good because half of the 12 doorbells in the building work. The ones that don't work, like mine, have probably been cut somewhere between the basement and the individual condos (I'm hoping my wires were cut on the 3rd floor).
> 
> ...


All you need access to for checking the wires is the ends. The location at your doorbell button is one location. The bell itself in your home is another. The *one that matters* is at the location of the transformer. If you want to trouble shoot it I will help you. But you will need to borrow or buy a multimeter. If this is not possible then I can't help you.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

PoleCat,

Your advice (and that of others) has been very useful. Thank you very much.

My aim has all along been to acquire as much info on doorbells as possible then do the grunt work in terms of locating the doorbell buttons, their wires and the transformer. Once I did this, my next goal was to get an electrician to actually do the tracing and wire connecting.

I think I'm now at the stage of locating an electrician.



PoleCat said:


> All you need access to for checking the wires is the ends. The location at your doorbell button is one location. The bell itself in your home is another. The *one that matters* is at the location of the transformer. If you want to trouble shoot it I will help you. But you will need to borrow or buy a multimeter. If this is not possible then I can't help you.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

For the cost of an electrician:

You can buy 2-3 wireless door bells and a lifetime supply of batteries

And a case of beer...good beer.


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## stripedbass (May 2, 2014)

I have a wired doorbell at last! 

I called an electrician today. I thought he would only be able to come next week. But he said he was doing nothing and could come immediately. 

When he got to my place we went to the transformer. Then we went to my 3rd floor condo with his detector thing. In no time he was able to locate the doorbell wires. They were behind a wall in my hallway, right outside my condo. They were halfway up the wall. He cut a small hole in the sheetrock and pulled them out. He then tested them. They had voltage! 

While he was running new wiring, from behind the sheetrock up into the attic and into the inside of my condo, I rushed to my local Home Depot and bought a new doorbell. When I got back he connected the new doorbell. I then decided to also get a new doorbell button. This time I went to my local hardware store. He connected the button. 

I now have a new and wired doorbell! 

I want to thank all of you who gave me good advice here. The grunt work that I did helped in locating the transformer and the doorbell wires from the buttons in the basement. 

Below is a photo of my new doorbell baby.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

Well, so much for the beer.


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