# Is this acceptable method of securing beam to concrete pier?



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

A BC40 is designed to connect a wooden post to a wooden beam. So by attempting to connect a wooden beam to a concrete base, you are well outside anything Simpson would approve. Possibly your building inspector would allow it, but only he can answer that question.


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> A BC40 is designed to connect a wooden post to a wooden beam. So by attempting to connect a wooden beam to a concrete base, you are well outside anything Simpson would approve. Possibly your building inspector would allow it, but only he can answer that question.


Thanks!

Given the situation at hand (pier already cast), what would be the best method of securing the 2-2x beam to the pier? Design has the beam flush to the pier.


----------



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

No one can see the design. Or even what your trying to do so some pictures would sure help.


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I assume you placed the concrete pier with no J bolt in it, and now you are trying to figure out how to attach a base to the concrete. You can drill the concrete and epoxy in a bolt, then use a based designed to take a bolt and nut. Run it by your inspector first, but they should be OK with it, this technique is frequently used in retrofit situations. Make sure you use high quality two part epoxy, like the Hilti prepackaged epoxy, or Sika, not the big box store special. And make sure you use the manufacturer recommended bit size and bolt size. Your inspector may want to look at the hole before you put in the epoxy.


----------



## user1007 (Sep 23, 2009)

Daniel Holzman said:


> A BC40 is designed to connect a wooden post to a wooden beam. So by attempting to connect a wooden beam to a concrete base, you are well outside anything Simpson would approve. Possibly your building inspector would allow it, but only he can answer that question.


Dan is right. You should not be able to pass inspection with what you have in mind.:thumbsup:

I can guess but how big is this deck you are going to build going to be? You plan at looking at it without live loads added by spouse (they all put on a few after high school yearbook photos), kids, cats, dogs?


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I assume you placed the concrete pier with no J bolt in it, and now you are trying to figure out how to attach a base to the concrete. You can drill the concrete and epoxy in a bolt, then use a based designed to take a bolt and nut. Run it by your inspector first, but they should be OK with it, this technique is frequently used in retrofit situations. Make sure you use high quality two part epoxy, like the Hilti prepackaged epoxy, or Sika, not the big box store special. And make sure you use the manufacturer recommended bit size and bolt size. Your inspector may want to look at the hole before you put in the epoxy.


 
yes you are 100% correct, no J bolt in the pier, so its a level 12" dia pier I was planning on placing the beam. I was led to believe there was another method of securing the beam other than using a J bolt, so I cast the 3 without.

If I were to drill and sink a bolt into the concrete with epoxy, I'd have to notch out the beam so it does not sit directly on the bolt/nut, but on the pier keeping everything level to plan. Would this be acceptable? In essence I guess I'd drill a large hole vertically in the beam to accept the nut and bolt.

Are there saddles or similar that would bolt down as mentioned with the 1/2" bolt, but not have a stand off base like the ABE44's?

Any other means of securing beams to concrete piers? I think I saw on simpsons site there are load rated "L" type brackets which look like they could be used?


----------



## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

Quicksmoke said:


> yes you are 100% correct, no J bolt in the pier, so its a level 12" dia pier I was planning on placing the beam. I was led to believe there was another method of securing the beam other than using a J bolt, so I cast the 3 without.
> 
> If I were to drill and sink a bolt into the concrete with epoxy, I'd have to notch out the beam so it does not sit directly on the bolt/nut, but on the pier keeping everything level to plan. Would this be acceptable? In essence I guess I'd drill a large hole vertically in the beam to accept the nut and bolt.
> 
> ...


You generally want a standoff between the concrete and the beam. If the wood beam is in contact with the concrete, that is a space that will hold water and eventually cause rot in the beam. My guess is that you would want to use a retrofit post base. I think this is what Daniel Holzman is suggesting. 

http://www.dhcsupplies.com/store/p/3315-Simpson-Strong-Tie-ABU-Series-Adjustable-Post-Bases.html 

They make a variety of sizes, so you would pick the one for your beam size. The Z-max versions have an anti-corrosion coating. Down at the bottom they show some of the anchor bolts that can be used. I like the wedge anchors, but this is something you should consult your local inspector about.

*LMHmedchem*


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The ABU series medchem suggested should be OK. There are also ABA series that should work. The catalog shows these connectors supporting columns, whereas you are supporting a beam, but I think it would be OK, but you should ALWAYS check with Simpson and your building inspector first whenever you deviate from the manufacturer recommendations. Note that the ABA and ABU series can be installed using epoxy, in fact Simpson appears to make an epoxy bolt product suitable for this application. Expansion anchors or Redheads can also be used, as always follow manufacturer recommendations on installation.


----------



## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> ...I think it would be OK, but you should ALWAYS check with Simpson and your building inspector first whenever you deviate from the manufacturer recommendations.


This is a very important point and something you always need to keep in mind. Remember that the inspectors work for you and are there to make sure that you don't do something that at best needs to be redone, and at worst is dangerous. 

You may want to think about using a 4x6 post base, ABU46Z, since these are 5 inches wide and will create a bit bigger 3 9/16 x 5 footprint for your beam end, as opposed to the 3 9/16 x 3 footprint from the 4x4 post base. 

I am assuming that your beam is 4 inches; wide, but I guess I should ask first. 

*LMHmedchem*


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Thank you guys! All great suggestions, and thank you for the link showing the epoxy/bolt product that can be used.

If I use the stand off plates, the 2x 2x8 beam will be raised around 1/2" roughly it looks. With this the beam will be 1/2" high. Any thoughts on how to level back down? I know this much sounds trivial, but design has the planks set just below a sliding door which is trimmed further below by red clay brick. Plan was to set the planks just below the brick work which extends from the sliding door. If the beam is set 1/2" high then the planks will not set below the brick work.

For any wood to concrete contact was planning on using ground contact grade PT.


----------



## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Given you situation, I'd hire someone to cut the pier down to where you need it? I'd say you could do this yourself but the saw is very expensive.


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Clutchcargo said:


> Given you situation, I'd hire someone to cut the pier down to where you need it? I'd say you could do this yourself but the saw is very expensive.


I have a circular saw with a diamond blade for cutting concrete, but this would have to be the worste nightmare ever in doing zig zag lines and then chiseling down.... I guess I wouldn't have to do the whole 12" pier but a 4" notch to set the stand off plate.

Just curious, what do people with beam to slab connections do? I imagine that they don't stand the beam off the slab do they?


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

The main reason for the standoff is to eliminate water pooling immediately adjacent to the lumber. The wood is not in immediate contact with concrete, but you don't need the standoff for that, because the brackets are typically about 1/8 inch thick galvanized steel anyway, and the wood sits on the bracket. When it is necessary to attach a beam to a concrete pier, usually it is designed to use the standoff bracket, and you design for the 1/2 inch height of the standoff. There are also adjustable standoff brackets that allow you to fix the height within a reasonable range, these are very good when levelling a beam.

It sounds like in your case the pier is poured already, and you are going to be 1/2 inch high. You can cut a notch in the beam 1/2 inch deep to compensate, or you can grind the concrete down 1/2 inch, or you can cut a slot 1/2 inch deep in the concrete. Cutting a 1/2 inch deep slot is not that difficult in concrete,use a diamond masonry blade, set it to 1/2 inch deep on a circular saw, make several passes across the concrete, and chisel out the waste using a masonry chisel. Should take you less than 1/2 hour. Make sure you wear a NIOSH approved mask when you do this, concrete dust is very bad for your lungs. And make sure you use a diamond blade, the carbide masonry blades are worthless on hard concrete. And make sure the method is OK with your building inspector first.


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> It sounds like in your case the pier is poured already, and you are going to be 1/2 inch high. You can cut a notch in the beam 1/2 inch deep to compensate, or you can grind the concrete down 1/2 inch, or you can cut a slot 1/2 inch deep in the concrete.


Is it acceptable to notch out about 1/2" from a 2x 2x8" beam? There are 3 piers this beam will sit on, with the 2 outer piers pushed to the far edge, span of ~14'

Not worried about inspector. He was only worried about the piers meeting the 36" depth before pouring the concrete. Just need to make sure I'm using approved connectors, in this case sounds like sinking a bolt with epoxy and one of the various stand off plates to saddle the beam.


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> . Make sure you wear a NIOSH approved mask when you do this, concrete dust is very bad for your lungs. And make sure you use a diamond blade, the carbide masonry blades are worthless on hard concrete.


Have the good blade for this :wink: Put a retaining wall in for some landscaping. Hot dry day and high winds made for some spectacular dust clouds when cutting!!!


----------



## LMHmedchem (Aug 14, 2010)

Quicksmoke said:


> Is it acceptable to notch out about 1/2" from a 2x 2x8" beam? There are 3 piers this beam will sit on, with the 2 outer piers pushed to the far edge, span of ~14'
> 
> Not worried about inspector. He was only worried about the piers meeting the 36" depth before pouring the concrete. Just need to make sure I'm using approved connectors, in this case sounds like sinking a bolt with epoxy and one of the various stand off plates to saddle the beam.


These post base connectors usually have a 1" standoff. If the beam is going to sit on allot of the concrete pier, I might use two post bases side by side so that the weight is distributed over a wider area. I think it might look better as well. If the beam is only going to rest on half the pier, then I would just use 1 4"x5" post base. In one of your earlier posts, it looked like you gave the dimensions of the beam as 2x2x8, which doesn't make any sense. Did I read that right?

Generally, you can notch up to 1/4 of the beam height, but that is something to ask the inspector. That is a dimension that is applied to a joist where the bottom edge of the joist will be supported by a hanger. This case is a bit different, so I would get their advice. If you cut into the concrete 1" using a grinding saw, then the issue goes away. You can probably rent a saw for this that wouldn't be too hard to use.

*LMHmedchem*


----------



## Quicksmoke (Aug 23, 2011)

Just found this base from simpson:
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/EPB44T.asp

This could potentially solve my issue. I'd have to drill a pilot hole into the beam to allow the bolt to insert freely. I'd have to still notch the pier to countersink the lock nut and washer to allow the beam to set at the correct level.

The beam is a doubled up 2x8" (x2 - 2" x 8").

This this may be better, or just go with plan of using stand off base?


----------

