# 120V between black/ground wire but ONLY 11-12V between black/white???



## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

You have an open neutral(white wire). If the entire circuit is not working then the problem is likely the connection in the panel.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

Do the same thing at the other outlet and retest. You have a loose or missing neutral.


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## rgsgww (Jul 5, 2008)

Kind of odd for a not so big load to do this, but I think loose connections did this. Turn the power off, and use the "ohm" setting (Ω) on your multimeter (picture of it below). Test between neutral and ground. Post results.

Test each junction (outlet, switch box, etc.) If you can't find it, shut your main breaker off (keep a flashlight on hand) and check the neutral for your circuit there.


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

Residential troubleshooting 101.

As the others have stated, you have a very common *open *orbroken neutral.

Power comes to the recep on the black and goes back on the white. If the white wire connection is broken somewhere on the way back, the circuit is not complete.

You are reading voltage to *ground* because the ground wire is not *open. *It is still connected all the way back to the panel where it lands on the same bus as the neutral.

Bt far, the most common cause is a *bad connection in a receptical*. 

The circuit goes from recep to recep to switch to recep etc.

Remove the first non working recep or the last working one on *that circuit*. The circuit relies on a connesction built into the receps and they have a tendency to fail when they are connected via the backstab rather than the side screw terminals. The bad connection could be *anywhere *between the recep and the panel but generally the culprit is in a recep.


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## dumbo (Feb 9, 2009)

*Thank you to all for your quick responses!*



joed said:


> You have an open neutral(white wire). If the entire circuit is not working then the problem is likely the connection in the panel.


Yeah, this is what I am thinking, but I just don't understand what could be going on there: corrosion, loose connection? And how could that be related to plugging a radio into an outlet, and that little spark/flash I saw? Since that point the whole circuit is indicating this open neutral... 



jbfan said:


> Do the same thing at the other outlet and retest. You have a loose or missing neutral.


All the outlets are testing this "low voltage" (now 10-11V) hot-neutral load (in fact, found two more on the same breaker, just outside of the room). The outlet the halogen was plugged into has only one each of the hot and neutral wires, so there's no way for me to isolate it like the other one by removing and wire nutting.



rgsgww said:


> Kind of odd for a not so big load to do this, but I think loose connections did this. Turn the power off, and use the "ohm" setting (Ω) on your multimeter (picture of it below). Test between neutral and ground. Post results.
> 
> Test each junction (outlet, switch box, etc.) If you can't find it, shut your main breaker off (keep a flashlight on hand) and check the neutral for your circuit there.


Testing between neutral and ground on each of the outlets with power off unfortunately showed no measurement... touching the probes together registers "0", but touching neutral and ground got no movement away from "1" regardless of Ω setting... I'll have to wait to get back from work to check out the panel.



220/221 said:


> Remove the first non working recep or the last working one on *that circuit*. The circuit relies on a connesction built into the receps and they have a tendency to fail when they are connected via the backstab rather than the side screw terminals. The bad connection could be *anywhere *between the recep and the panel but generally the culprit is in a recep.


No backstabbing on any of the outlets, but after work I'll have to work my way around all of the nine outlets to check for connection rigidity...

Again, thank you to ALL!

p.s. even got out one of those cheapo, three-light plug-type outlet testers: bright orange on the hot wire, flickering duller orange on the neutral - guess that's what 11V looks like


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## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> I just don't understand what could be going on there: corrosion, loose connection?


There are connections at most every single recep and switch box. Things fail, especially receps.







> And how could that be related to plugging a radio into an outlet, and that little spark/flash I saw?


Check that recep first. 





> Since that point the whole circuit is indicating this open neutral...


 
Are you sure the *whole* circuit is out??? Turn off the *breaker* in question and see if *anything else* goes off. Often the issue is in the last *working *recep.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

If the entire circuit is dead the I would open the panel and look for a loose neutral wire in the neutral bus.


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## dumbo (Feb 9, 2009)

*Thank you VERY much to joed, jbfan, rgsgww and 220/221: FIXED!!!*

I really appreciate all of your input, and I finally got around to checking out the circuit panel - it's been a real learning experience. It's the first time I ever posted on the net, and was pleasantly surprised by the rapid and conscientious responses of you all.

After throwing the main breaker, I focused in on the neutral bus bar, and noticed that some of the screws were locking down 2 wires, so I started in on those first. None of them were what I would call loose - in fact, without some way of measuring torque, I wasn't going to go beyond the subjective impression of "hey, that screw ain't gonna' turn any more" - but one of them *did* give about 1/8+ of a turn... all of the single held wires were solid.

Well, after getting the panel back on, setting the main breaker ON as well as all the subsidiary breakers, I was greeted by power on the affected circuit...

Though the circuit is back to function, and other than finding it merely coincidental, is that all it might have taken to bring this circuit back on line? Having worked a lot with electronic equipment, one would never have needed that kind of pressure to get WATTS flowing from an amplifier to a speaker with stranded copper wire... is this the way it is with VOLTS and solid copper? Could that extra tension have "bit" into the copper sufficiently to once again complete the circuit?

I'm almost tempted to de-energize the panel again and spray some quick-dry contact/deoxidizing cleaner on the neutral bus...

Nahhhh: I better leave well enough alone!

Once again, thank you very, VERY much.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Loose connection = high impedance at the contact interface. 

It should have gotten hot when you tried to pull current through it but the busbar conducts heat pretty well.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

By code there is only supposed to be one neutral wire per lug. That 1/8 turn could have been all it took. The wire could have been partially corroded or oxidized and the turn fix it.


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## dumbo (Feb 9, 2009)

joed said:


> By code there is only supposed to be one neutral wire per lug.


Would that include a ground too, i.e. a ground *and* neutral under the same lug?

I'd have to check behind the breaker panel again to see what the combos were, but there are two bus bars - one on either side of the breakers - and there were grounds *and* neutrals attached to each of them.

Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't code... there have been other things we've found in our short home ownership... amazing what a home inspection *doesn't* turn up AND what passed inspection when the home was first built almost ten years ago!



> That 1/8 turn could have been all it took. The wire could have been partially corroded or oxidized and the turn fix it.


AMAZING, given the power of all of those volts... as I said earlier, this has been a learning experience... thank you.


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## rovers1973 (Feb 2, 2009)

Ground and neutral bar are interchangeable in the service entrance (main) panel since they are tied together.
Should only be one neutral wire per connector, grounds can be more than one but how many I think depends on the panel manufacturer.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

dumbo said:


> amazing what a home inspection *doesn't* turn up


The horns of their dilemma is 
killing the real estate agent's deal 
vs. 
getting sued for wrongful death. 

Kilobucks worth of landscaping to solve a drainage problem that they should have told me about does not meet this standard.

No real estate agent wants a customer who is 
a civil engineer, 
an attorney, 
and is vengeful.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Double neutrals is a code violation however it is not serious to have two under one lug. It is only a hazard when you attempt to remove one neutral and the other circuit is still energized. It could be a shock hazard.


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