# PVC vs. Copper from Water Meter



## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm planning to re-pipe my home and replacing the 84 year old galvanized with copper. I don't have any leaks but I get some of rusty crusty sediment every few months that clogs the faucet particle filter.
I have been talking to a couple of plumbers and one guy said that if I wanted to save money, I could dig the trench from the house to the meter by myself and also use PVC pipe. I don't mind digging to save money but I do not want to use incorrect or non-recommended materials.
I didn't know if using schedule 40 PVC is legal or good practice. I do know that buying 30 feet of 1" PVC will be less expensive than 30 feet of 1" type-L copper. 
I'm also concerned that if use plastic piping, should I run a ground wire from my pipes to the meter since I will break electrical continuity between my pipes and the meter.

Any help, advice or guidance will be appreciated. 
Thanks in advance, VC


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

You need to check with your local water utility about what type of material is allowed between the street and your house. They may have requirements. In some communities, only the utility provider can make the connection. As for grounding, it is certainly true that grounding to a plastic water line is not a ground at all, so if you replace a copper line that has a ground strap on it with a plastic line, you are certainly going to need to install ground rods at the meter in accordance with local electrical practice, if they are not currently installed.


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## plumber666 (Oct 7, 2010)

Copper is the most expensive way to repipe your house. I think Cali approves PEX, go with that. Including from the meter. That and a new ground rod.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

plumber666 said:


> Copper is the most expensive way to repipe your house. I think Cali approves PEX, go with that. Including from the meter. That and a new ground rod.


We haven't been using pex for our main water services yet, but I really think it's a great idea. Still using schedule 40 pvc.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Use of PEX inside the house is generally covered under the State plumbing code. I believe that in many jurisdictions, state plumbing code does not apply to utilities, which have their own regulations. As usual, it is essential to check with the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) about what materials are permitted, who can do the work, and what the specifications are for the work.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

plumber666 said:


> Copper is the most expensive way to repipe your house. I think Cali approves PEX, go with that. Including from the meter. That and a new ground rod.


I'm not too concerned about price. I'm not rich but I can afford to re-pipe the house in copper because I have plumber who is giving me a good deal since I'm going to help.

Regardless, this PEX sounds interesting. I would only be interested in using it for my main service feed. I read that PEX should not be exposed to sunlight. If were to use it for my main service feed, there would be one point where I come up to penetrate the side of the house and that section could be exposed to sunlight.

I like the idea of using schedule 40 PVC. I gotta check with the local utility to see if is acceptable. I live in Santa Clara, CA.

Thanks guys for the advice, VC


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

I agree with checking with the local AHJ first. You may want to take into consideration the soil conditions which the piping will be put into. Around here we have a large amount of what we call "pea gravel", tiny rocks within the soil. Schedule 40 PVC is permitted here for the main from the meter to a residence, not commercial though. BUT-we have found that after some 10-15 years of the PVC being in the soil with this pea gravel, that the pea gravel will rub a tiny hole in the PVC. It is highly recommended here to place the PVC within a layer of sand to protect it from being "rubbed" by the pea gravel. PEX is not permitted here as the main supply line, only used within the residence.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

Thurman said:


> I agree with checking with the local AHJ first. You may want to take into consideration the soil conditions which the piping will be put into. Around here we have a large amount of what we call "pea gravel", tiny rocks within the soil. Schedule 40 PVC is permitted here for the main from the meter to a residence, not commercial though. BUT-we have found that after some 10-15 years of the PVC being in the soil with this pea gravel, that the pea gravel will rub a tiny hole in the PVC. It is highly recommended here to place the PVC within a layer of sand to protect it from being "rubbed" by the pea gravel. PEX is not permitted here as the main supply line, only used within the residence.


I will check with local AHJ. I stopped by the local commercial piping and plumbing store today to get pricing for some schedule 80 PVC and the CPVC. The schedule 80 pipe is heavier duty and should last longer and resist the problems that you mentioned about the pea gravel. We don't have a pea gravel problem here. We have earthquakes instead. 
Does any one have any opinion about using schedule 80 PVC or CPVC. The 1" schedule 80 cost $.73/foot and the CPVC costs $1.99/foot. 

Thanks, VC


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

I wouldn't put CPVC in the ground ever personally. Can you do it? Maybe. I sure wouldn't.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

Alan said:


> I wouldn't put CPVC in the ground ever personally. Can you do it? Maybe. I sure wouldn't.


Hi Alan,

Just out of curiosity. Why no CPVC underground?

I've attached a couple of photos of my water meter. There is a 3/4" pipe running from my meter to the house. It appears to be galvanized pipe. The nut on the end confuses me. It look like some kind of compression fitting.

I want to run a 1" PVC pipe from the meter to the house. I'm curious to hear a couple of suggestions about how connect the new 1" PVC pipe to the meter and if there are any problems that will occur by upsizing my main water service line diameter. My plumber said that most of the repipe jobs that he does involves upsizing the pipe. any help or advice will be appreciated. Thx, VC

Photos are below:


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't know its technical name, but around here the connection from the meter to the house or, in my case, from the well to the house, is made using black flexible pipe that comes in rolls. It's less expensive and easier to work with. I don't think PVC or CPVC would fare well in an earthquake-prone environment.


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## burnt03 (Sep 20, 2009)

vcheez,

The nuts in the picture are union nuts. Specific thread to match the meter, sealed with a rubber washer. The entire unit is called a tailpiece. At the other end of the tailpiece (going through the box) is the threaded end, likely 3/4" MIP. 

To join your new pipe, would simply need an adapter for whatever you're threading in (ie. 1" PVC pipe, use a 3/4" thread by 1" slip female adapter).

In our municipality, we typically use a black HDPE pipe we call municipal tubing, similar to PEX.

Call your local water department and ask them their opinion. They'll know what materials are the most reliable in your area and what's legal as well.


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## andrew4096 (Oct 22, 2010)

md2lgyk said:


> I don't know its technical name, but around here the connection from the meter to the house or, in my case, from the well to the house, is made using black flexible pipe that comes in rolls. It's less expensive and easier to work with. I don't think PVC or CPVC would fare well in an earthquake-prone environment.


If it's black, it may be polybutylene, a material that got a bad reputation in the 1980s due to poor manufacturing quality that resulted in a huge class action lawsuit that put the main manufacturer out of business. It could also be High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is good stuff.

I live in earthquake country and my water service from the meter to the house is 1 inch Schedule 40 PVC. It works fine. In fact, it's _better_ than copper, because we have very hard water here that is known to destroy copper pipes in a few years. Consequently, our local plumbing codes require Type "L" copper as a minimum, even above ground. PVC is fairly flexible, so it will give a bit with soil movement. Any soil movement large enough to damage PVC will also damage galvanized iron and copper lines. In fact, if there is local shear in the soil, it's most likely because the house is (was) located directly over the fault, and any movement sufficient to rupture the buried water line will most likely flatten the house, too. :whistling2:


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## andrew4096 (Oct 22, 2010)

vcheez said:


> I want to run a 1" PVC pipe from the meter to the house. I'm curious to hear a couple of suggestions about how connect the new 1" PVC pipe to the meter and if there are any problems that will occur by upsizing my main water service line diameter. My plumber said that most of the repipe jobs that he does involves upsizing the pipe. any help or advice will be appreciated.


I did exactly what you're contemplating about 10 years ago. The brass tailpiece coming out of the 3/4" meter ended in a male pipe thread. I added a brass 3/4" x 1" reducer (bell) at the end of the tailpiece, then screwed in a a PVC 1" MPT x 1" Slip fitting, using about 5-6 turns of Teflon plumber's tape, and the 1" Schedule 40 PVC pipe was cemented into it. For long-term reliability, a male PVC thread should be screwed into a female metal fitting, so that the plastic is in compression. Screwing a female PVC fitting onto metal puts the plastic under tensile stress, and it can crack over time. The galvanized pipe that it replaced had a bend in it to negotiate a change of grade from the meter to the house. Since the PVC line was flexible, it was not necessary to bend it; a gentle curve was sufficient. (If you're going to bend the PVC run, it is actually better to cement the MPT x Slip fitting onto the end of the first length of pipe and let it cure for 30-60 minutes before screwing it into the brass reducer.) As the PVC pipe leaves the brass tailpiece from the meter, it should have zero angle to (1) avoid putting asymmetric stress on the rubber washer in the union at the meter, which will eventually cause a leak, and (2) avoid stressing the thread of the MPT x slip adapter, as the threads act as stress risers and will likely cause the adapter to fail at the thread eventually.

I could have used 3/4" PVC, since my service from the city's water main is only 3/4", but I wanted to lower the dynamic pressure drop between the meter and the house, so I chose to step up to the next larger standard pipe size.

When using Teflon tape to seal threaded PVC joints, I've found that at least 5 turns are needed, especially when transitioning between metal and plastic. If one uses only 3-4 turns, the joint is likely to leak.

Bear in mind that the pressure regulator is located at the house wall in most installations, so the PVC run from the meter will be carrying full main pressure continuously. In my area, the static pressure is 100 lb/sq. in. Bursting pressure of 1" PVC is about 1440 PSI, and maximum operating pressure is 270 PSI, according to ASTM D1785, so my water main pressure of 100 PSI is well within the safe operating range and allows for pressure spikes on the main.


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## md2lgyk (Jan 6, 2009)

andrew4096 said:


> If it's black, it may be polybutylene, a material that got a bad reputation in the 1980s due to poor manufacturing quality that resulted in a huge class action lawsuit that put the main manufacturer out of business. It could also be High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is good stuff.


I've never seen PB that wasn't gray. In any case, what I have must be HDPE since it's only two years old.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with CPVC except the price, and some people are concerned about chemicals leaching from CPVC into their water supply. In any case, CPVC is used commercially for hot water only, since there is no advantage over standard PVC for cold water, however PVC is not suitable for hot water applications. Regardless, I prefer PEX, or HDPE for outdoor applications. Easier to work with, get a long roll, no joints.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

md2lgyk said:


> I've never seen PB that wasn't gray. In any case, what I have must be HDPE since it's only two years old.


"polybutylene" is gray . 

" Polyethylene " is black.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

andrew4096 said:


> I did exactly what you're contemplating about 10 years ago. The brass tailpiece coming out of the 3/4" meter ended in a male pipe thread. I added a brass 3/4" x 1" reducer (bell) at the end of the tailpiece, then screwed in a a PVC 1" MPT x 1" Slip fitting, using about 5-6 turns of Teflon plumber's tape, and the 1" Schedule 40 PVC pipe was cemented into it. For long-term reliability, a male PVC thread should be screwed into a female metal fitting, so that the plastic is in compression. Screwing a female PVC fitting onto metal puts the plastic under tensile stress, and it can crack over time.
> Bear in mind that the pressure regulator is located at the house wall in most installations, so the PVC run from the meter will be carrying full main pressure continuously.


Thanks for the good info. I'm a little confused about what is the brass 3/4" x 1" reducer (bell). If you have a photo of one that would be cool. Also is the pressure regulator needed. I spoke the local plumbing inspector and the only specific rules that he mentioned was that I needed to add a backflow prevention device and if I install a plastic pipe instead of metal from the meter to the house, the new rules requires that I run a #14 blue wire along the path of the pipe and it have to have 6" left on either end. This is so they can detect it via radar at some point in the future. He also mentioned that I should 90 down from the meter to 18"-24" deep before running the pipe to the house so I need to find a fitting that can connect to the meter and then 90 down and then transition to PVC. I like your comments about screwing the male plastic into the metal rather than the other way around that makes good sense. Unfortunately, the inspector was just spouting off rules very casually and he could not give me a list of all of the requirements so it makes me not want to pull a permit since I don't want any $urprises when the inspector shows up. Thanks in advance, VC


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

If you decide on copper Don't use L go one step better and use k in a roll no joints like Daniel said.


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## burnt03 (Sep 20, 2009)

vcheez said:


> Thanks for the good info. I'm a little confused about what is the brass 3/4" x 1" reducer (bell). If you have a photo of one that would be cool. Also is the pressure regulator needed. I spoke the local plumbing inspector and the only specific rules that he mentioned was that I needed to add a backflow prevention device and if I install a plastic pipe instead of metal from the meter to the house, the new rules requires that I run a #14 blue wire along the path of the pipe and it have to have 6" left on either end. This is so they can detect it via radar at some point in the future. He also mentioned that I should 90 down from the meter to 18"-24" deep before running the pipe to the house so I need to find a fitting that can connect to the meter and then 90 down and then transition to PVC. I like your comments about screwing the male plastic into the metal rather than the other way around that makes good sense. Unfortunately, the inspector was just spouting off rules very casually and he could not give me a list of all of the requirements so it makes me not want to pull a permit since I don't want any $urprises when the inspector shows up. Thanks in advance, VC












If it were me, I'd install a pressure reducer. If there is a hydrant used in your neighborhood and it's opened/closed too quickly, it causes a pressure wave that could be 2-3X the static pressure at the curb. Without a PRV, your home is unprotected.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

burnt03 said:


> If it were me, I'd install a pressure reducer. If there is a hydrant used in your neighborhood and it's opened/closed too quickly, it causes a pressure wave that could be 2-3X the static pressure at the curb. Without a PRV, your home is unprotected.



Thanks for the tip man. I'm going to the local plumbing store tomorrow morning. Do you have a brand of pressure regulator that you like. It will go on a 1" copper line. Check out the fittings below that picked up from a industrial piping supplier yesterday. Do you think this would work at my meter for a metal to PVC transition. These are brass and PVC some how bonded together. I got a 1" and 3/4" NPT style.

*PVC Side*









*Brass Side*


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> There is nothing wrong with CPVC except the price, and some people are concerned about chemicals leaching from CPVC into their water supply. In any case, CPVC is used commercially for hot water only, since there is no advantage over standard PVC for cold water, however PVC is not suitable for hot water applications. Regardless, I prefer PEX, or HDPE for outdoor applications. Easier to work with, get a long roll, no joints.


I changed my mind about PVC not only because of the price but because of the hassle. Since I'm working on my home, this work will be done on the weekend. Also, since I'm not a pro, I'm sure I will need to run to the store to grab some parts that I forgot or realize that I need and the stores that sell CPVC fittings in my town are only open Monday thru Friday. At least I can run to Home Depot on a Saturday afternoon and grab what I need and not delay my work until the following weekend.


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## kwhit190211 (Dec 25, 2009)

*Underground insulation of pipe*

You have to check out what your local & county codes say to use. Then check out what the utility company to make sure they don't want something else. I'm old school personality, I use copper. As a Pipefitter I've had to many jobs where using plasic tubing or pipe failed underground. Digging the trench the first time was bad enough & now you have to dig again but now there is a line in this one. If your going to use plastic make sure that you put something hard just above it so that you don't cut through it if you have to dig it back up again. Also, when you backfill use loam first. I've had to many cases where when they backfiled, the material used eventually put a hole in the plastic and, we were using CPVC.


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## burnt03 (Sep 20, 2009)

vcheez said:


> Thanks for the tip man. I'm going to the local plumbing store tomorrow morning. Do you have a brand of pressure regulator that you like. It will go on a 1" copper line. Check out the fittings below that picked up from a industrial piping supplier yesterday. Do you think this would work at my meter for a metal to PVC transition. These are brass and PVC some how bonded together. I got a 1" and 3/4" NPT style.
> 
> *PVC Side*
> 
> ...


Try to get a PRV that has a removable screen inside, nice if you have some dirt in the main and need to give it a clean










Whatever pipe material you use, make sure you bed the pipe top and bottom with lots of sand. The more sand you use, the less likely it'll be that you (or a future owner) will have to dig it up in the future.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> If you decide on copper Don't use L go one step better and use k in a roll no joints like Daniel said.


Is the "k" copper only to be used from the meter to the house or can it be used to repipe the whole house too? I'm just curious. None of the plumbers that I have spoken to has mentioned using flexible copper roll. Thx, VC


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

burnt03 said:


> Try to get a PRV that has a removable screen inside, nice if you have some dirt in the main and need to give it a clean
> 
> Whatever pipe material you use, make sure you bed the pipe top and bottom with lots of sand. The more sand you use, the less likely it'll be that you (or a future owner) will have to dig it up in the future.


That PRV looks nice but expensive. How much does one of these go for? Im sure its less expesive than a future repair caused by over pressure Does it double Asa back flow prevention device? Thx, VC


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## Bob999 (Mar 4, 2010)

burnt03 said:


> Whatever pipe material you use, make sure you bed the pipe top and bottom with lots of sand. The more sand you use, the less likely it'll be that you (or a future owner) will have to dig it up in the future.


Better yet--run the pipe in conduit. The 4" corregated pipe used for drainage makes good conduit and is inexpensive--the electric utility in my area uses it for the 3 wire connection from the transformer to the house. (For high voltage single phase underground service they use a single wire that is supplied in preinstalled in conduit.)


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

vcheez said:


> That PRV looks nice but expensive.



They're not nice. We used to use them all the time and then we got a batch with bad "Tops" They are painted pot metal and they were completely rotting through in less than 1 year. We were out there replacing them for free.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

vcheez said:


> Is the "k" copper only to be used from the meter to the house or can it be used to repipe the whole house too? I'm just curious. None of the plumbers that I have spoken to has mentioned using flexible copper roll. Thx, VC


Mostly it is used from the street to the house or anywhere underground, it's the thickest and is used mostly on water service.

It's probably to expensive to run inside most people just run L or M inside the house.


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## VIPlumber (Aug 2, 2010)

vcheez said:


> Does it double Asa back flow prevention device? Thx, VC


Nope.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

Hey guys, 

Day-1 of the re-pipe job went okay. I spent $1,200 of materials with greatest portion of that going towards all of the copper pipe and half of that goings towards fittings. The PRV was expensive at $74 and the GE water filtration unit with filter was about $95.
My main concern right now is that the compression nut with gasket at the main is leaking. The gasket cracked. My plumber found a couple lying in the meter box that he claims are always left in there in case of a "rainy day" but they were old and hard and I bet they cracked too. Unfortnately, Home Depot does not have those gaskets and commercial plumbing store is not open on Sundays so I may have a small leak at the meter until Monday evening. Today, we accomplished replacing the main and connecting back into existing pipes so I can at at least take a shower. I'm glad for that since this was a really dirty day. It seems like the water pressure is lower than it was before. Would making my main go from 3/4" to 1" reduce the pressure. The pressure regulator is new. May be it's too low? How do you increase the pressure on these things. Does the water filtration unit reduce the water pressure? It has a 1" inlet and outlet.

Thanks so much for all of the advice that I have received so far. It has helped me check my plumbers work and to be able to provide so knowledgable insight and to prevent them from cutting corners.

Here are a few photos of the work in progress. If you see anything that looks problematic, please let me know. The guys will be back at 9AM tomorrow just before the games start and I will have them make the corrections if it makes sense. Thanks in advance, VC

*Trench *









*Connection on My side of the meter*









*Offset Piping at meter*









*Beginning Sand Back Fill*









*Connection at House So Far*


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## burnt03 (Sep 20, 2009)

lol at the gun show in the first pic.

The PRV is probably set at about 40-50 psi. You can increase the pressure by turning the screw clockwise, but it'd probably be safest to do it with a pressure gauge to check what you're at. 

If the filtration is a new addition, you'll probably see a pressure drop through the unit. Always remember to check and change out those filters. I've seen a couple here where they've left it too long and they're just bacteria breeding grounds.

Looks good!


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't like joints underground, but who cares what I like it's not my job. Thought you were using a material off a roll with no joints.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> I don't like joints underground, but who cares what I like it's not my job. Thought you were using a material off a roll with no joints.


The joints underground are a definitely a point of concern. I appreciate the opinion. The schedule 40 PVC is what we decided to go with based on familarity and affordability. The rolled K copper sounded cool but I couldn't find it at the last minute.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about the joints underground. It's not like they're under concrete or something. If you tested them, and they're not blowing apart, they're fine.

We have to do it all the time here, people live on hillsides, and so that leaves us making swing joints at the meter, and another one up at the house.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

burnt03 said:


> lol at the gun show in the first pic.
> 
> The PRV is probably set at about 40-50 psi. You can increase the pressure by turning the screw clockwise, but it'd probably be safest to do it with a pressure gauge to check what you're at.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I'll check at Home Depot to see if I can find a water pressure gauge. You are correct, it says that it is factory set to 50PSI. If I cant find a gauge, I should be ok since I never had one before, even I open it wide open, there should not be problem. The water filter does however say 100 psi max.

Thanks for the tip on the water filter. It has some type of timer that tells you when it should be switched. I don't think it senses if the filter is too dirty but it instead just makes it so you buy a new filter on a regular basis.

Thanks, Vc


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

burnt03 said:


> lol at the gun show in the first pic.
> 
> The PRV is probably set at about 40-50 psi. You can increase the pressure by turning the screw clockwise, but it'd probably be safest to do it with a pressure gauge to check what you're at.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I'll check at Home Depot to see if I can find a water pressure gauge. You are correct, it says that it is factory set to 50PSI. If I cant find a gauge, I should be ok since I never had one before, even I open it wide open, there should not be problem. The water filter does however say 100 psi max.

Thanks for the tip on the water filter. It has some type of timer that tells you when it should be switched. I don't think it senses if the filter is too dirty but it instead just makes it so you buy a new filter on a regular basis.

Thanks, VC


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Sep 18, 2011)

Did you backfill on a Sunday ?
I hope you got your inspection before hand. The inspector can and some will make you expose your work for inspection.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

Alan said:


> I wouldn't worry about the joints underground. It's not like they're under concrete or something. If you tested them, and they're not blowing apart, they're fine.
> 
> We have to do it all the time here, people live on hillsides, and so that leaves us making swing joints at the meter, and another one up at the house.


 
First of all it don't matter what their under, second testing is another question who tested and to what pressure?, just because someone does something all the time does not make it right. I knew people that did things for 20 or 30 years wrong they thought it was right. To me plumbing is like electrical don't bury junction boxes, don't make connections underground unless there is access. Most major Utility Companies do not put joints where they can not reach. But in this case it's OK because a leak would be on his side of the meter. Bills, Bills, Bills.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> To me plumbing is like electrical don't bury junction boxes, don't make connections underground unless there is access. Most major Utility Companies do not put joints where they can not reach. But in this case it's OK because a leak would be on his side of the meter. Bills, Bills, Bills.


Hopefully, I will not have a leak at these joints. It was hard watching my workers dig that trench. :wink: For future work, I'll remember the rule of thumb about not making joints under ground. If I would have known that it is not good practice, I may have chosen another option. I have had no problems with properly primed and sealed PVC joints under pressure and since the pipe is sold in 20' sections, I had assumed that it was okay to make the joints underground. Fortunately, the trench is easily accessible via shovel and man power. It took my guys about 45 minutes to dig that hole. The section next to the meter where I have the elbows is near the surface and takes five minutes to reach so I'm not too worried about accessibility.
Day-2 went better than day-1 but we got distracted by NFL so we didn't get as much done. I'm glad the guys are working for me for a flat fee and not by the hour or I would be worried because its gonna take longer than was quoted. I'll probably give them a few more bucks.
We tied into the sprinklers and added a pressure gauge to the system as per the suggestion burnt03. The regulator is set at 50PSI. Is there any need to raise the pressure? I went to all of my fixtures in the house and the water seems to be flowing fine.. I'll have to see how the water feels after we finish ripping out the galvanized. 

So far no leaks but I'll keep an eye on things. My moonlighting plumbers will not be back until Tuesday night. So I have another day to inspect their work to make sure there are no leaks or any other potential problems. Here are few more photos. If you guyz see anything problematic, please chime in. Thanks in advance, VC

*Outdoors Complete and Sprinklers Tied In*









*In the Basement with Gauge and Filter*









*Ground Connection to Water Main Between Electrical Panel and Ground Rod
*








*
Trench Closed Back and Lawn Put Back
*


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

VC. you guys do nice work. My last comment was not to you but to Alan your job just happened to be the subject.


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## burnt03 (Sep 20, 2009)

50psi is fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about the joints underground. Like you said, it's easy enough to expose when they're shallow like that. Our lines here are dug to about 4' deep (and further north, they go 10' and deeper!) so that's when you would try to avoid the joints.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

COLDIRON said:


> To me plumbing is like electrical don't bury junction boxes, don't make connections underground unless there is access.


Plumbing code does not prohibit this practice. If he made good glue joints and the ground isn't moving, he'll probably get 40+ years out of that piping. 

Typically the pvc failures we see are the male adapters where they are threaded into some sort of metal fitting IE : meter box, and when someone drives on the meter box, the threads snap right off.

What about PE piping? That stuff splits right down the middle after 25 years. No joints there, yet you still have to make repairs. It happens all the time. We dig it up, we fix it, we bury it back over, hopefully never to look at that same pipe again in our lifetime.


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## COLDIRON (Mar 15, 2009)

This is a recording, there is no reason in this case to have joints underground, I understand sometimes it can not be avoided.
It just makes sense to not place joints underground if you don't have to regardless if your 10 ' deep or 1' deep why even think about digging it up and making a repair just because it's not 10' deep?. Who wants to dig it again?

I definitely would have put signal tape or some cover on that line to prevent something from topside hitting it .


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

COLDIRON said:


> This is a recording, there is no reason in this case to have joints underground, I understand sometimes it can not be avoided.
> It just makes sense to not place joints underground if you don't have to regardless if your 10 ' deep or 1' deep why even think about digging it up and making a repair just because it's not 10' deep?. Who wants to dig it again?
> 
> I definitely would have put signal tape or some cover on that line to prevent something from topside hitting it .


What I like about this forum is that even amongst experts and pros, there are many differing opinions. I love to absorb it all and try my best to make a smart decision for my situation. After hearing the negatives about my install, I think it makes since to not put joints underground. On the other hand, PVC with proper sealing is really strong and lasts along time. Since, schedule 40 PVC was my material of choice and they only come in 20 foot lengths, I could not avoid making joints underground. What would you have used instead? If my pipe busts in the near future I'll need an alternative. I wasn't real keen on putting a soldered copper line underground due to the cost and soil properties in my area and that rolled flexible stuff just looks so wimpy and I have no knowledge of the fittings
There is no doubt that digging sux and nobody wants to do it but it is cheap labor that can easily be done in the future if I get a failure. Besides, I won't be doing the digging and I also am not going to rip up and redo last weekends work just because of the possibility of a future failure of an underground PVC joint. I'm going to live with it for now and hopefully until I can have my grandkids dig it up next time.

I agree with you about protecting the connections near the surface. some kid could be riding his bike down the side walk and wipeout on curb and bust my PVC elbows near the meter since they are only about a foot deep. See the attached photo of the big round flat concrete circle that I put over the critical area to provide some protection. Thanks for the advice, VC

*Concrete Pad Protecting Underground PVC Joints*


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

vcheez said:


> some kid could be riding his bike down the side walk and wipeout on curb and bust my PVC elbows near the meter since they are only about a foot deep.


I can assure you sir, that if your line is properly bedded, this situation will NEVER EVER occur.


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## Alan (Apr 12, 2006)

I just noticed a picture of the bonding to the copper piping.

I'm no electrician, but something in our code requires that bonding be moved to an appropriate location when the water main is non-metallic.

Something to look into.


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## vcheez (Jul 12, 2010)

Alan said:


> I just noticed a picture of the bonding to the copper piping.
> 
> I'm no electrician, but something in our code requires that bonding be moved to an appropriate location when the water main is non-metallic.
> 
> Something to look into.


The copper pipe is bonded between the ground at my service panel and 10' ground rod. If you notice from my picture there is loop in the grounding terminal. This is because one half of the loop is connected to the electrical service panel ground and the other end of the loop is connected to the 10' earth ground rod. The ground rod maybe 8' long. It's been a few years since I installed it and I forgot which one we installed.


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