# Attic Insulation



## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

So, i went into my attic to check it out (the insulation and stuff). the reason i did that was to try and understand why i have a temperature difference my main floor and my upstairs. Roughly 2 degrees celcious.

I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and its winter right now. So, i went upstairs and measure the depth of the insulation, 9-10 inches in 90% of the area, the edges, where the roof meets the house doesn't really have any. And some random small areas are also less than 9" in depth of coverage.

The temperature in the attic is 2 degrees celcious. Is that considered normal? It felt like winter (like being outside without a jacket) up there.

Is that all normal, should i have an insulation company come in and inspect?


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

i believe R49 is the minimum for your area. requirements might be something different entirely.you should have the baffles at the outsides ( eaves where venting is ) 9 inches is not enough for R49. what type on insulation is in there now?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Keep in mind these are the bare minimums to pass code.
http://greenzone.com/general.php?section_url=12

If it's uneven just use a hard rake upside down to smooth it out.
Unless some one air sealed all the holes where plumbing and wiring was run through the top plates and around all the ceiling light and fan fixtures your still leaking air.
And yes it's suppost to be about the same temperature in the attic as outside. If not your loosing heat.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

+1 to the above posts. 
- Your attic should be very cold, if it was warmer, that would mean that you are losing too much heat into the attic.
- You need insulation dam and baffles at your eaves. That will prevent the wind wash which has blown insulation away from that area.
- You could probably use some additional insulation, and air sealing as well if that was not done. We are usually going R50-R60 around here.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the reply.

I don't have any baffles (i googled them, as i didnt know what they were) installed in my attic. nor insulation damns, which i think are the same things as baffles. I could see how wind running up the inside of the roof would push the insulation.

the insulation right now is just the blown in stuff.

Is it worth getting an attic insulation company in, or could i do this myself.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

The insulation dams block the flow between the soffit and attic space and prevent the insulation from blowing/falling. The baffles are placed to allow that ventilation without messing up the insulation... This is all fairly doable DIY stuff as long as you educate yourself thoroughly on the subject first. 
Here is a nice illustration:


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Yeah, that pic looks about right and what i mean about that, my roof (attic) doesnt have that.

I am going to have to do some exploration in the attic, ie. actually climb in, take some pictures and roll up the sleeves to get it (the attic) up to a higher standard. I probably will have to air seal (as i high doubt thats been done), probably have to install the baffles and damns.

My house does feel drafty, especially the second floor. I wonder if working on the attic would fix the drafty issue and temperature difference between first and second (at least 2 degrees)

thanx for the input.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

Here is a handy table to convert thickness to r-values. As previously stated in our area building code is r-40 but it is being changed to r-50 for new builds. 
Your 9 inches is not enough. You need at least 25 inches. 

You will notice an immediate difference in comfort and energy savings

*Insulation*

Type of insulation R-value
per inch of thickness
Vermiculite, loose fill 2.08
Perlite, loose fill 2.7
Fiberglass, blankets and batts 3.33
Fiberglass, blown loose fill 2.2
Fiberglass, boards 4.5
Rock wool, batts 3.66
Rock wool, blown loose fill 2.93
Polystyrene boards 3.45
Cellulose, blown loose fill 3.6
Urea-formaldehyde foam 4.48
Urethane foam 5.3


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

so i need at least 25 inches of blown in insulation to get R-50?

i think i am reading conflicting information. Could someone please clarify?

R30 - how many inches
R40
R50

what i did notice is that there is a piece of paper on my attic that has r-30 circled, but the depth of insulation is 9" or less, depending on the area.

Also, i could simple add blown in insulation to the existing correct? Should i even bother to lay down fibreglass batts instead (between joist) and then lay loose afterwords (but this would require me to remove the loose). dont know how to do that.

PTMD


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

Amitabh said:


> Thank you everyone for the reply.
> 
> I don't have any baffles (i googled them, as i didnt know what they were) installed in my attic. nor insulation damns, which i think are the same things as baffles. I could see how wind running up the inside of the roof would push the insulation.
> 
> ...


You can do it yourself Home Depot will let you use their machine for free if you buy ten bags of insulation to blow in I would go to r-60 which is a total of 25 inches. 
Here is two links that can help you out.
http://insulation.owenscorning.com/assets/0/428/429/431/af2a2cae-f7c3-43bd-8e88-9313ed87dd2d.pdf
http://www.greenfiber.com/step_one_-_calculate_your_need_how_to_install.html
But pound for pound I would go with fiberglass. Read the amount you have use for each one. you will use more cellulose then fiberglass and as a green stand point cellulose takes paper out of the recycle loop to the tune of 2.3 million tons per year that is green fiber numbers. That 2.3 million tons of paper could still each year be made back in to paper and news print or cardboard stock. So 188,253 trees each year have to be killed to meet the needs of insulation. Fiberglass yes it itchy, yet they use 50% post consumer glass equal to the amount of 2.2 billion tons of glass that would have ended up in the land fill and glass made from sand is the most sustainable resource the planet has. Just my two cents worth.


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## creeper (Mar 11, 2011)

I know without a doubt that you need r40 to r50 in our area. 
It is possible that at the time of installation it was r30 but overtime it has compressed down

I would just go ahead and add more blown in on top. Do not remove the old unless its wet.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/enefcosa/enefcosa_002.cfm


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Amitabh said:


> My house does feel drafty, especially the second floor. I wonder if working on the attic would fix the drafty issue and temperature difference between first and second (at least 2 degrees)
> 
> thanx for the input.


It will definitely help. You did not mention (or I didn't see) what your existing material is, but for cellulose you want about 15-16"(total) , and closer to 19-20"(total) for fg. 
On material, both sides make a lot of wacky claims about the other, but at the end of the day, either will do the job. Most pros prefer cellulose as despite being dustier, it does not itch, it is cheaper, and more dense. FG has some major marketing $$$ behind it, and is only getting more expensive as its market share is eaten away by cellulose and spray foam.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

HomeSealed said:


> It will definitely help. You did not mention (or I didn't see) what your existing material is, but for cellulose you want about 15-16"(total) , and closer to 19-20"(total) for fg.
> On material, both sides make a lot of wacky claims about the other, but at the end of the day, either will do the job. Most pros prefer cellulose as despite being dustier, it does not itch, it is cheaper, and more dense. FG has some major marketing $$$ behind it, and is only getting more expensive as its market share is eaten away by cellulose and spray foam.


Thank you everyone for their feedback. To be quite honest, i am just going to go to HD or Lowes and pick up whatever loose fill in they carry. From HD website in Canada, i see AttiCat and Weathershield Cellulose Fiber. Price difference is huge, AttiCat is $33, Weahtershield is $8.5.

As for the material already being used, i will get a picture up this weekend hopefully. My two toddlers dont give me much free time. But i can tell you its a bunch of white fluff.

As for the attic baffles and dams, could i bend the venting mechnasim so that it creates the dam/wall and maintain its venting ability. Or should it be more like the picture, a rigid foam dam wall and the vent simple stapled to the roof.


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

Amitabh said:


> As for the attic baffles and dams, could i bend the venting mechnasim so that it creates the dam/wall and maintain its venting ability. Or should it be more like the picture, a rigid foam dam wall and the vent simple stapled to the roof.



there are some made that bend like you propose.

accuvent is one brand.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Not sure on what the rule is here, but couldnt i simple use this product

http://www.lowes.ca/insulation-acce...27&term=attic&linkloc=searchProductItemsImage

its a rafter vent and dam in 1. That way i only have to staple the product in, as oppose to making dams from rigid foam.


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

Amitabh said:


> Not sure on what the rule is here, but couldnt i simple use this product
> 
> http://www.lowes.ca/insulation-acce...27&term=attic&linkloc=searchProductItemsImage
> 
> its a rafter vent and dam in 1. That way i only have to staple the product in, as oppose to making dams from rigid foam.


yes, like I mentioned previously. similar to the accuvent.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

*Good News Or bad*

So, i went up in the attic, its pretty tight walking around up there, you can see from the pictures the type of insulation that was used.

I measured random places and i would have to say that its disappointing, alot of 5" to 7" spots, some crumpled spots and a few 8" or greater spots. I definitely need a top up and everywhere

As for the rafters, not sure how i could reach them. Or even do then, i could not even see my soffit vents, it looks like there is a fiber glass dam already. thats good no?

Quick question, what happens if i dont walk on the wood, could i fall through the dry wall? probably a dumb question.

PTMD


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Nobody said it would be easy:laughing:. That's why my insulation guys are about 5'6 and 150lbs soaking wet.:yes:
And yes, you will most likely go through your ceiling if you step on the drywall with any amount of weight. Get your self a nice plank or two to use so that you can move around up there more freely.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

dang, my neck is hurting AGAIN. 

OP, you have a lot of working room up there. i have seen houses with 1/2 that(roof pitch).

btw. when buying the cellulose. buy a LOT of it. you "think" you need 20 bags = buy 40. wait, no, buy 50-60 bags.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

HomeSealed said:


> Nobody said it would be easy:laughing:. That's why my insulation guys are about 5'6 and 150lbs soaking wet.:yes:
> And yes, you will most likely go through your ceiling if you step on the drywall with any amount of weight. Get your self a nice plank or two to use so that you can move around up there more freely.


ah, dont meet those height and weight requirements, i am not allowed on the ride! 

so, i am going to have to remove the fiber glass wall (touching both the floor and rafter) in the corner and figure out whats going on there? Hopefully seeing a soffit vent below it or behind it?

Given what is already in place, would I actually improve the insulation system by putting a baffle and vent system in place instead of the existing system? Obviously the house was built to code in 2004 (i hope), so if that pass doesnt that mean its ok?

Safety question? what should i be wearing when up there? Mask? Gloves? i dont know.

I am assuming the material is cellulose fiber, correct?

This project is going to take a few days, am i right?


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> dang, my neck is hurting AGAIN.
> 
> OP, you have a lot of working room up there. i have seen houses with 1/2 that(roof pitch).
> 
> btw. when buying the cellulose. buy a LOT of it. you "think" you need 20 bags = buy 40. wait, no, buy 50-60 bags.


So - i did a rough estimate of my second floor area, assuming that it would be the area that needs to fill the attic.

1100 sq. ft is a rough estimate of coverage, how many of these bags do it need. knowing that i already have 5" to 7" in place already.

http://www.lowes.ca/greenfiber-blown-in-insulation_15017_m14021.html?rd=A


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

just a guesstimate. but i would say that you would use 70-80 bags, and then want more. i did about 800sf to about 9" and ate up 30 bags. and i had some old insulation under parts of that 800sf. just to top off that area, i figure i would need about 40 bags. 

my advice = buy way more than you "think" you need. then, if you do not use it all. just take back what you do not use.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

That is fiberglass that you have. It looks fairly clean, but it will irritate your skin and throat so wear a mask, gloves, and either some junky clothes or a tyvek suit (be prepared to sweat if you do that because it doesn't breathe). I would add FG rather than cellulose since that is what you already have. If you can figure out where your soffit vents are, just stuff the baffle down over the fg batting to let that airflow through. Leave the fg in place to prevent wind-washing of the insulation. I would spend the a day doing that and airsealing the major chases (chimey, electrical boxes, drop soffits, etc) and then come in the following day and blow over it with the additional insulation. You could hit all of the top plates etc as well (would be ideal), but it is not gonna be easy with that blown fg in there.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

So, i did it, after all the chatting and learning, i did it, i added *one *rafter (with baffle) vent. lol

check the picture out.

Here was my experience, first off, dress up in junky clothes, wore a mask, hat, and gloves, got a plank of wood (need more than 1) - man did it get hot

Used a leaf rake to move the FG blown-in insulation away from the corner. - great tool for attic work and moving blown-in insulation.

The FG insulation was used as a wall that touch the rafter and the joist, so no air flow (or at least block). I removed the FG insulation and behind the insulation itself was a little dirt, but the soffit vent itself was clear open. 

I did notice something interesting, and you may see it in the picture, there is a piece of plywood acting as a rafter vent (i have maybe 4 of these, across the entire attic).

After cleaning out the area, i stapled the rafter vent in, it didnt fit perfectly or even flush, it require some bending to "squeeze" in between the rafter joist.

i noticed that i don't have a ridge vent, but circular holes in the rafter itself, that are attic vents. (perhaps 3 to 5, didnt count them all)

I put back the FG insulation wall back into the newly created dam and brush back and puff up the blown-insulation.

Thoughts? suggestions? validation?

p.s. to the people that do this as a profession, you have found another humble person that respects what you do.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks like you are on the right track  It sounds like you have regular box style roof vents as opposed to a ridge vent. Those are perfectly adequate provided that you have the correct amount. 
I see that plywood tacked on to create a cavity. Does that extend down between the joists to block the insulation from falling into the soffit?


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Yes, i could see the soffit vent clearly.

I called an attic insulator and he told me that i dont need rafter vent in every bay, is that true?


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## framer52 (Jul 17, 2009)

Amitabh said:


> Yes, i could see the soffit vent clearly.
> 
> I called an attic insulator and he told me that i dont need rafter vent in every bay, is that true?


Maybe maybe not. In order to tell you must figure out the airflow through the vents then match to the outflo in your attic vents.

Buildingscience.com might help you


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

It is best to vent EVERY cavity as this is where most of the heat/moisture from below follows the exterior wall wiring/plumbing holes. A good reason to air-seal the attic first... Then there will be no "dead" spaces not receiving incoming air to remove the heat that causes ice dams or the moisture removal. 
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-102-understanding-attic-ventilation?full_view=1

Gary


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

Just read this whole post and noticed that no one mentioned insulating the attic hatch. I am assuming that you enter the attic through a ceiling hatch? If so, make sure to insulate that as well using foam boards glued together to achieve whatever R value you need. They sell a special foam adhesive to use for that. Then when you have your hatch all insulated, apply a weatherstripping along the perimeter where the hatch sits to prevent heat from escaping into the attic. I did mine last year, which was a huge improvement as the builder used a plain piece of wall paneling cut to fit the hole. I used R10 rigid foam and glued three pieces together and glued it to the plywood hatch. I probably should have added a fourth piece of foam board but can do that this spring to bring it up to R40. The snow on my roof stays there a lot longer now. :thumbsup:


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanx for the information everyone. Appreciate everyone's insights. I dont remember if i asked this earlier or in another post, but am working out the math between doing it myself and hiring a professional. So, could someone help me calculate the number of bags i need. I figured i need about 50 to 60 bags of the cellulose.

Here is what i have

1300 sqft
7" currently of blown-in FG


If i use http://www.lowes.ca/blown-in-insula...isku=8778085&linkloc=cataLogProductItemsImage how many would i need to get to R50?

i figured about 50 to 60 bags, is that right?

PTMD

as for the hatch cover, it has about 8" of rigid foam already, but i have to reinstall the weather stripping.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

i say = always buy WAY MORE than you think you need. then, if you do need it, its there. if you don't need it, just take it back.


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## Amitabh (Oct 21, 2010)

Fix'n it said:


> i say = always buy WAY MORE than you think you need. then, if you do need it, its there. if you don't need it, just take it back.


good point, but i am trying to calculate my cost versus the professional. See how much more it will cost me.

Doing my own break even analysis. So, yes, you are right about buying more bags, but what is the rough estimate of bags.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

ok. i would use the calculator, as if there was no insulation up there at all.


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