# How to drain a utility sink that is in basement?



## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

Hello, brand new to these forums and I am glad I found em. 

I wanted to install a utility sink in my basement where my washer and dryer are. I was going to attempt to do some pipe sweating to get the slupplylines going. This will be my first attempt at this, but it should be pretty straight forward. 

My issue lies with draining the sink. I have a washer next to the new sink location that is drained with a flex hose into a goose neck into a drain that branches out of my whole house drain pipe (4 inch old pipe I think). Can this sink be drained without a pump if the sink drain point is lower than the top of this washer drain pipe top? 

Do I have any options other than having the sink drain point above this washer drain, which is not an option for me? and the cost of the pump will be too high. 

I have a floor drain in this room that is just an opening in the floor to drain water on the floor. Worst case is I would have to drain to a hose and just stick in down this whole, but that would be non-permanent and just not look finished.

any suggestions?

thanks


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> Can this sink be drained without a pump if the sink drain point is lower than the top of this washer drain pipe top?


Yes, what makes you think it would be a problem if I understand your question correctly. But you should also vent the sink.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> Yes, what makes you think it would be a problem if I understand your question correctly. But you should also vent the sink.


I assume that if the bottom of the sink where the drain is in the tub is lower than where this drain has to join the drain that is used by the washer, it wouldn't work because of of gravity


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

Well you can't just connect it to the exact same spot as the washer drain, you will have to expose the pipes if you can't already see them and add another wye branch lower then where you want the sink to tie in, connect the sink drain to a new branch you a creating and extend the vent portion of the branch above where the washer drain ties in (anything above where a drain ties in is considered a vent) and reconnect to the existing vent for the washer by turning a second wye upside down. Generally you don't "keep" the old drain for the washer drain but recreate it all new for both drains. I believe the standpipe riser off the "gooseneck" or p-trap for the washer needs to be a minimum of 18" high.


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## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

Just to be clear you can not tie your new sink into the standpipe for the washer. It needs to be tied in before the washers trap. Basically you're going to remove the trap and add a wye before it.


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## bigMikeB (May 31, 2007)

But, you could install a laundry tray pump (Hartell makes a nice one)and tie it in to the standpipe for the washer and have it work just fine and avoid having to do all the venting.


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## ranman469 (Dec 25, 2007)

here are the types i have installed in homes and commerical buildings to have a remote sink.

http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/products/homeimprove/drainpump105_135.htm


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> Well you can't just connect it to the exact same spot as the washer drain, you will have to expose the pipes if you can't already see them and add another wye branch lower then where you want the sink to tie in, connect the sink drain to a new branch you a creating and extend the vent portion of the branch above where the washer drain ties in (anything above where a drain ties in is considered a vent) and reconnect to the existing vent for the washer by turning a second wye upside down. Generally you don't "keep" the old drain for the washer drain but recreate it all new for both drains. I believe the standpipe riser off the "gooseneck" or p-trap for the washer needs to be a minimum of 18" high.


The problem in my situation is that the drain pipes are exposed, however, the drain for the washer feeds into the rest of the house drain. The toilet bowls, showers, and sinks all drain into this pretty large drain and into the floor. If I had just a standpipe draining the washer that went straight down into the floor, I would just cut that off, replace with PVC and hook up both the washer and sink to it. But, the this pipe by the time it gets lower than the washer gooseneck drain point, turns into a 5-6 inch pipe and runs horizontally for a few feet before turning down into the floor. This 5-6 inch pipe drains everything out of the house. 

thanks for the replies everybody, maybe I can take some pictures of the plumbing and put em up here.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

ranman469 said:


> here are the types i have installed in homes and commerical buildings to have a remote sink.
> 
> http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/products/homeimprove/drainpump105_135.htm


thanks for the link. Is it possible to get a pump that will do the job for 50-100 bucks?


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

Would something like this work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=140201391888&Category=46547&_trksid=p3907.m29

Can a sink drain to a garden hose through this pump and hosed into the washer drain, goosneck maybe?

Not this exact model of course, it runs on DC. something that runs on AC would be needed


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## bigMikeB (May 31, 2007)

Yeah you can be cheap and install that type of pump or you can just plug the drain and when the sink fills up you could drain it with a hand pump. You can't make chicken soup from chicken crap. Use a reservoir pump made for the job that will be code compliant and safe for your family to use. Do the right thing.

http://www.hartell.com/corp/details/0,10294,CLI1_DIV32_ETI3997,00.html


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> thanks for the replies everybody, maybe I can take some pictures of the plumbing and put em up here.


You said you didn't want to purchase a pump but in the end it may be the easier way to go (way more then 50-100 bucks I would think) but you still need a place to pump the water to; and would the opening for the washer drain except another pipe?
From what you have described, I don't see how to configure the piping properly without cutting a section out of your existing piping, and it is probably 4" pipe you are looking at (cast iron?) and you are reluctant to cut into that I assume. Some pictures would be helpful to see how it can best be done.


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## ranman469 (Dec 25, 2007)

Mikey Palmice said:


> Would something like this work?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=140201391888&Category=46547&_trksid=p3907.m29
> 
> ...


 
that pump would probly burn up. i use one of those to drain hot water tanks.

i would just hold on the project untill you can get a pump made for what you want to do:thumbsup:


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

bigMikeB said:


> Yeah you can be cheap and install that type of pump or you can just plug the drain and when the sink fills up you could drain it with a hand pump. You can't make chicken soup from chicken crap. Use a reservoir pump made for the job that will be code compliant and safe for your family to use. Do the right thing.
> 
> http://www.hartell.com/corp/details/0,10294,CLI1_DIV32_ETI3997,00.html



What exactly is a reservoir pump?


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> You said you didn't want to purchase a pump but in the end it may be the easier way to go (way more then 50-100 bucks I would think) but you still need a place to pump the water to; and would the opening for the washer drain except another pipe?
> From what you have described, I don't see how to configure the piping properly without cutting a section out of your existing piping, and it is probably 4" pipe you are looking at (cast iron?) and you are reluctant to cut into that I assume. Some pictures would be helpful to see how it can best be done.


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

before I would spend 50-100 dollars on a pump, I would buy a 10' chunk of schedule 40 and a few furnco's and get rid of that mess. You can put a couple of wye's and be good to go. It's not as much work as one would think. A 4inch grinder or mutabo to cut cast iron pipe, somthing to support upper vent pipe, fit and glue pvc, then furnco ends back togather.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

big daddy-o said:


> before I would spend 50-100 dollars on a pump, I would buy a 10' chunk of schedule 40 and a few furnco's and get rid of that mess. You can put a couple of wye's and be good to go. It's not as much work as one would think. A 4inch grinder or mutabo to cut cast iron pipe, somthing to support upper vent pipe, fit and glue pvc, then furnco ends back togather.


:huh:

I think schedule 40 is pvc pipe, right?
Furnco's are used to join cast iron pipes to pvc, right?
wye's are used to attach drain lines from sinks or washers to the pvc drain system, right?

Are you saying that I should cut the 4 inch cast iron pipe before it goes through the floor and change all the drain pipes to pvc that are in the above pictures?

When you say the above pipe needs to be supported, I assume you mean, because we are changing everything to pvc, it can't continue to support the weight of the above cast iron, right?


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

How old is this house? I don't live in a area where basements are the norm but that is the most unorthodox set up I have seen in a long time....what really gets me is the running trap with the clean out cap. What is the purpose? I know you don't know Mikey, but I am asking as a general question to plumbers who see this. 
Having seen what you have I would opt for one of the first things you mentioned, run the utility sink to the floor drain...you may not even want to remove the cover, strap your 1 1/2" or 2" pvc pipe along the wall and terminate the drain about an inch or two above the floor drain and figure out some way to prevent excessive splashing if that bothers you....without losing the function of the floor drain for its original purpose. This is very common to see in restaurants and commercial applications but usually draining into what is called a floor sink (about a 12" square X 12" deep sink set in the concrete) to prevent the splashing and also prevent drain stoppages from backing up and contaminating a sink that may be used to prep food.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

I think the house was built in the mid 50's. 

The only problem with running some sort of line into the floor drain is that the floor drain is in the middle of the room, about 3 feet in front of the washer and dryer, so it will be quite visible. 

What do you mean by running trap? Is that the dip in the 4 inch pipe before it goes into the floor?

The 4 inch that goes into the wall in the third picture just goes to a vent in the side of the house? what is the purpose of this? Is it a venting system for the pipe?

thanks


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> before I would spend 50-100 dollars on a pump, I would buy a 10' chunk of schedule 40 and a few furnco's and get rid of that mess. You can put a couple of wye's and be good to go. It's not as much work as one would think. A 4inch grinder or mutabo to cut cast iron pipe, somthing to support upper vent pipe, fit and glue pvc, then furnco ends back togather.


Sorry, I was typing when big daddy-o responded with the above.
He makes it sound so easy to reconfigure what you have and it is not and I think cost was your issue to begin with in trying to gain only the function of a sink. What I said about using the floor drain should not even be thought of as temporary, it would be easy to remove if need be at any time if someone thought it an issue, say if you wanted to sell the house...as for the original piping it was there when you bought it.


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

Yes that is the running trap. Sorry I thought I saw a silver cover on the floor in the photo of the running trap, thinking that was a floor drain. Now I see it was part of the dryer vent


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

Now that I look again what I saw was part of the dryer vent. The running trap is the "U" shaped pipe with the cap on it...it serves no purpose to my knowledge


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> Sorry, I was typing when big daddy-o responded with the above.
> He makes it sound so easy to reconfigure what you have and it is not and I think cost was your issue to begin with in trying to gain only the function of a sink. What I said about using the floor drain should not even be thought of as temporary, it would be easy to remove if need be at any time if someone thought it an issue, say if you wanted to sell the house...as for the original piping it was there when you bought it.


Ok, I think this is what I will do.........The floor drain is actually, just a few inches in front of the washer. I will sweat in the hot and cold supply lines and place the sink next to the washer. I can somehow hook up a hose to the sink drain and run it behind the washer and have it come to the front along the floor between the washer and sink and direct it into the floor drain. I can easily remove it when I need to and like you said, I would rather not go crazy just for a utility sink. 

Would it be easy to connect a flexible hose to the sink drain? 

And, everybody, please cross your fingers, I have never attempted to sweat a copper connection before, should be fun.


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> The 4 inch that goes into the wall in the third picture just goes to a vent in the side of the house? what is the purpose of this? Is it a venting system for the pipe?


I guess I thought that was somehow catching drainage from upstairs being a 4" pipe...it must be venting the running trap

If the floor drain is in the middle of the floor perhaps it is best to reconfigure the wye that the washer drain ties into if where it ties in to the larger pipe is not too high for the sink


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> And, everybody, please cross your fingers, I have never attempted to sweat a copper connection before, should be fun.


Some fun. Good luck. I have to run for a while. Don't put yourself in a position to be without water. Practice a few solder joints first before you cut any pipe for real.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> If the floor drain is in the middle of the floor perhaps it is best to reconfigure the wye that the washer drain ties into if where it ties in to the larger pipe is not too high for the sink


The sink will be too low to reconfigure the drain that way. 

well, I'm off to pick up some parts, thanks again


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## slakker (May 29, 2007)

Maybe you can cut into this and re-plumb the smaller wye connection area? So take apart that whole section and replace with PVC...

How high off the ground is the 4" wye connection? Just an idea...


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

slakker said:


> Maybe you can cut into this and re-plumb the smaller wye connection area? So take apart that whole section and replace with PVC...
> 
> How high off the ground is the 4" wye connection? Just an idea...


It's pretty high where the wye connects to the 4 inch pipe. Probably the height of the top of the washer, and much higher than the bottom of the sink where the drain starts


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

Do you know where that floor drain goes? some of those back in the day , just went a couple of feet down into the dirt, typically what goes into floor drain would be minimal, a sink draining into dirt may back up as your putting more down than can soak in. check this out, depending on what your going to use sink for. example fill tub up to soak something once you pull plug you may have a mess. plan ahead before disaster strikes.....:yes:


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

What is the square concrete around drain pipe? if you remove that you could gain approx. 4" more room to work with correct? cut the bottom area where pipe enters floor, and furnco a wye in there . keep in mind that there are two ways to do things. the right way , and half ass. your home should be a priority. its tough and costly but why cut corners?:no:


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## MACPLUMB (Jan 21, 2008)

*Drain Utility Sink*

*WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND ! ! ! :furious: *

*What no one noticed is the washer drain "DO'ES NOT" have a p-trap or vent per plumbing codes ! ! !*

*what you need to do is get a lic. plumber in there to strighten out this mess ! ! A.S.A.P.*
*and take a home improvement course at your *
* local jr. collage before you "KILL YOUR FAMILY" BY NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING,*
*THERE IS A REASON WE HAVE PLUMBING CODES:thumbup: *


* MACPLUMB MASTERPLUMBER*


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## bigMikeB (May 31, 2007)

Mikey Palmice said:


> I think the house was built in the mid 50's.
> 
> The only problem with running some sort of line into the floor drain is that the floor drain is in the middle of the room, about 3 feet in front of the washer and dryer, so it will be quite visible.
> 
> ...


 
The u-bend in the 4" cast is your house trap and the 4" line next to it that goes through the wall is the trap vent. The connection of the washing machine hose is someones idea of how to tie it in which is competely wrong. You need to install a trap and vent on that line. I don't see what you have pictured as a DIYer's first plumbing job, it looks over the head of most newbies. I would either call a professional plumber or take your time and read up on the plumbing code for your area.


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## big daddy-o (Jan 2, 2008)

MACPLUMB said:


> *WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND ! ! ! :furious: *
> 
> *What no one noticed is the washer drain "DO'ES NOT" have a p-trap or vent per plumbing codes ! ! !*
> 
> ...


well genius, if you notice, the entire system has a running trap 2' away.:whistling2:


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

What is the purpose of a trap? And why is it dangerous to not have one on the washer drain pipe? And does the whole house trap that is 2 feet away, cover the need for a trap on the washer line?

thanks


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

Ok, I found out that a trap is used to prevent dangerous sewer gases from entering the home. The water that is trapped acts as seal to prevent the gases from getting through. 

So, as the above poster stated, is the trap that is in the 4 inch section enough, being it is so close to the washer and sink drains?


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## MACPLUMB (Jan 21, 2008)

*Basement Sink Drain*

*NO i did notice the running trap and yes i know it protects the house from city sewer*
*but "DO'ES" not protect from gasses in house waste lines, :no: *
*per plumbing and health codes,  *

* MACPLUMB MASTERPLUMBER :thumbup: *


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

Hey Mikey...Wow, lots of hysteria. Normally there is a trap on the washer drain and the hose from the washer just sits in an open pipe that drops into the trap and yours has been improvised with a hose clamp to prevent the hose from coming lose and will also prevent gases from escaping....it is not what is normally done but when your house was built a lot of areas did not enforce plumbing code. It looks like the pipe going up off the wye after the washer clamp is probably a vent. It is still safe at this point and I was trying to get you a sink without cutting everything out.... because then you will be in over your head. Testing the floor drain with a bucket of water is a very good idea before you decide to use it...as it may go nowhere or simply be stopped up.


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

Incidentally, I did notice there was no trap on the washer drain and I would insist on installing one if you were to cut the wye out in order to add the sink (which would also have its own trap) and loop a vent pipe back into the small pipe going up as it appears to be galvanized pipe and would be easier to cut.. but you say it is too low, but I think you mean too high.
The running trap is there to prevent gases but _if everything else in the house is trapped and vented properly_ it is a redundancy and not needed. But there is no need to cut it out and recreate the wheel the way it would be done today.


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## Mikey Palmice (Jan 26, 2008)

jpplumber said:


> Hey Mikey...Wow, lots of hysteria. Normally there is a trap on the washer drain and the hose from the washer just sits in an open pipe that drops into the trap and yours has been improvised with a hose clamp to prevent the hose from coming lose and will also prevent gases from escaping....it is not what is normally done but when your house was built a lot of areas did not enforce plumbing code. It looks like the pipe going up off the wye after the washer clamp is probably a vent. It is still safe at this point and I was trying to get you a sink without cutting everything out.... because then you will be in over your head. Testing the floor drain with a bucket of water is a very good idea before you decide to use it...as it may go nowhere or simply be stopped up.


I have dumped plenty of buckets of water down there, and have not noticed any of it coming back.


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## bigMikeB (May 31, 2007)

jpplumber said:


> Incidentally, I did notice there was no trap on the washer drain and I would insist on installing one if you were to cut the wye out in order to add the sink (which would also have its own trap) and loop a vent pipe back into the small pipe going up as it appears to be galvanized pipe and would be easier to cut.. but you say it is too low, but I think you mean too high.
> The running trap is there to prevent gases but _if everything else in the house is trapped and vented properly_ it is a redundancy and not needed. But there is no need to cut it out and recreate the wheel the way it would be done today.


 
Maybe not in Texas but a whole house trap is still required in many locations. He needs to have a trap on the washer discharge in any case. The last thing you would want to be in the area of an open frame motor is methane gas from the drain piping. I think he needs to call in a pro because there is no easy solution to adding a sink drain to the current set up.


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## jpplumber (Jan 1, 2007)

> Maybe not in Texas but a whole house trap is still required in many locations. He needs to have a trap on the washer discharge in any case. The last thing you would want to be in the area of an open frame motor is methane gas from the drain piping. I think he needs to call in a pro because there is no easy solution to adding a sink drain to the current set up.


It is true we don't have running traps in Texas and for the most part no basements either. In order to install a trap on the washer drain he would have to cut out the wye (blue and white 4 x 2) and the 4" 90 below it and pipe in the sink and washer drain at that point. He wanted to add a sink and is going to drain it to the floor drain (think of it as a trap primer for the floor drain...another protection) and leave everything else as is. Not perfect or attractive, but functional. To tell him he needs fancy pumps or that he is putting his family in danger and his house could explode because he doesn't have a trap on the washer drain is extreme. His house has been there since the 50's and has probably always been like that.


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