# stairway railing help



## bfan781 (Mar 11, 2010)

Hi,
I am building a railing on the top of my stairs. There are two short sections. (3-4' each). At the top of the steps there are going to be two newel posts with a handrails that goes back to rosettes on the wall. I consider myself an experienced DIY'er but have never done this before. I have some questions that may seem like I have no idea but I just want to understand how it goes together before I start. I am going to purchase the material from lowes/depot.

The newels at the top of the stairs, are they attached using lag bolts through framing members? I plan to use oak newels, handrails, and rosette with white spindles.

The height should be about 36" to the top of the handrail?

I am trying to figure out how it al goes together? How do the handrails connect to the newels and rosettes? 

What about the spindles? are holes drilled on the underside of the handrail to hold in place and then attached to the floor using finish nails? 

Can someone give me a quick overview on how everything connects and then I am sure it will lead to more questions.

Have a baby coming soon and need to get the final inspections completed


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Check out a few You Tube videos to get an overview of the process. It's easier to view the procees and then ask the questions.
Also do a web search of stair rail installation. Pictures will help a lot.
Ron


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## Dwoodsmith (Jan 13, 2011)

I advise you to go out and have all the crazy fun you can before the baby arrives. You'll have plenty of time at home to work on the stairs afterwards.


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

You can also go to a big box store to look at all the pieces you'll need and how they work. It's an enjoyable but fiddly job and you may need to buy some tools but nothing too major


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## Fisher (Nov 22, 2010)

I would consider using a Kreg Tool to install the newel posts, railings and spindals, attached is my first stairway and it was very strong and actually pretty easy.
Thanks


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Fisher said:


> I would consider using a Kreg Tool to install the newel posts, railings and spindals, attached is my first stairway and it was very strong and actually pretty easy.
> Thanks


How did you "secure" newel posts with a Kreg jig?
I use 1/2" carraige bolts through the framing under the floor.
Ron


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

My balcony rails are set at 38" from finish floor.
Pocket holes are not a good idea here. The will leave a tough hole to plug in an oak newel.They will not give the post much strength. The newels should extend down the face of the riser and attach with screws. Regular drywall screws are fine. Make sure you drill a clearance hole with a 3/8" countersink so you can plug hole later.With a 3" post I will make the face of my newel even with the leading edge of my nosing. Im not quite sure of you set up here pics will help.

There are other mounting options. You could cut newel to sit on finish floor but you need a mounting kit such as a 3004 by lj smith.These work nice and leave no holes to plug. 

Decide where on the wall you want the rail to end. Make sure there is enough room for the rosette. Keep in mind that the center of your rail is the center of post and balusters so put in a place you know there will be nailing for rosette and post. Assuming you are using a ball top post, attach post first and check for plumb. measure the space between post and drywall. Here you can make the rail a bit longer or shorter to fix an out of plumb newel...weak at least in 1 direction. Once rail is snugged in between, take your rosette and hold it on the drywall where the rail hits and use it to scribe that end of your rail.Cut rail again and attach rosette to end with glue and screw. to attach rail use a rail bolt on the newel side. follow directions in the package. On rosette side attach with drywall screws and plug holes.

For balusters measure space from newel to drywall and divide by 4.5. this is how many balusters you will need...round up. start with 3" space on each end and then start with 4.5" on center. adjust accordingly. I like my spacing to be about 4.25-4.625. you can figure spacing on calc. if you want but trial and error also works. once layed out you can plumb up holes with a 4' level. Drill 5/8" holes in bottom of rail with a spade bit. Try to keep holes as straight as possible.Cut balusters about 1/2" long and slide them into your 3/4" hole on you landing. fill lower hole with glue and tack top with a brad.

Balusters go in AFTER rail is in place.Unless balcony is offset by a large amount.hope this all makes sense
.


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## Fisher (Nov 22, 2010)

My newel posts were hollow with the block that they slid over. I put 2 holes per side of the block and attached with 2 1/2" screws and then the post just slid over and I attached that with several screws per side. I was lucky in that it was painted white, just putty up the holes and painted. Did the same for the spindles, on the bottom just drilled one hole on the front and one on the back and screwed them into the treads and the floor. The railing was also attached with the kreg tool, one hole on the bottom of each side of the railing and screwed into the newel post. I also used PL400 under each of the blocks for the newel posts. It ended up very strong and was actually pretty quick and easy to intall that way.
Thanks


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Fisher said:


> My newel posts were hollow with the block that they slid over. I put 2 holes per side of the block and attached with 2 1/2" screws and then the post just slid over and I attached that with several screws per side. I was lucky in that it was painted white, just putty up the holes and painted. Did the same for the spindles, on the bottom just drilled one hole on the front and one on the back and screwed them into the treads and the floor. The railing was also attached with the kreg tool, one hole on the bottom of each side of the railing and screwed into the newel post. I also used PL400 under each of the blocks for the newel posts. It ended up very strong and was actually pretty quick and easy to intall that way.
> Thanks


Is this a kit railing? Do you have the name of it?
I'm curious about the block and how it's connenect to the framing.
Ron


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## Fisher (Nov 22, 2010)

The newel posts came with the blocks in them, they were about 12" long. All the other pcs were just linieal and I cut them down to fit and I drilled all the holes for the install. The 2 blocks for the newel posts on the tread and landing were attached with PL400 and then I drilled 8 pockets for the kreg screws and screwed it to the 1" thick oak tread and oak landing. The newel post slid over that and just screwed it to the block. As for the 2 on the landing, I placed extra framing on the under side of the flooring under the subfloor that was fastened between the floor joists, it is a doubled up 2x10 glued and screwed in. Then I attached the 2 newel posts on the landing the same way.
Hope this answers what you are asking?
Thanks


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Fisher said:


> The newel posts came with the blocks in them, they were about 12" long. All the other pcs were just linieal and I cut them down to fit and I drilled all the holes for the install. The 2 blocks for the newel posts on the tread and landing were attached with PL400 and then I drilled 8 pockets for the kreg screws and screwed it to the 1" thick oak tread and oak landing. The newel post slid over that and just screwed it to the block. As for the 2 on the landing, I placed extra framing on the under side of the flooring under the subfloor that was fastened between the floor joists, it is a doubled up 2x10 glued and screwed in. Then I attached the 2 newel posts on the landing the same way.
> Hope this answers what you are asking?
> Thanks


Just curious as to how strong the connection is. Standing next to the post and trying to wiggle it, isn't the same as a lateral force hitting it from the side. Like 2 kids rough housing coming down the stairs.
Ron


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## bfan781 (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for the help guys.

I took the advice and watched some videos and then went down and looked at all the pieces. Definitely have a better understanding now, but lead to a few more questions.
Sorry if I repeat myself just trying to work it out mentally before I get going this weekend. I lik eto have a good idea at how I am going to move forward.

If you can answer some, any or all these questions it would be great!

So first I am going to install the newels. I am going to notch them and they will hangover the balcony and I am going to secure using 1/2" lags into framing members.

second part.
Now the handrails? On the side that attachs to the newel, do you screw/lag through the other side of the newel through the newel and then into the handrail? Is this the best way or is there another way to secure them. Can you get oak plugs 1/2" at the box stores? 

On the opposite side of the handrail, I no longer am going to use a rosette. I looked to see where it is going to line up and it is on the face of a door frame casing. (I used 1X4 for the trim casing) so it is flat. I would like to just have the handrail go into the trim casing if possible and would look ok.

Is this possible? What is the best way to do this portion? Could I put a lag through the trim into the framing and them put the handrail into that lag? almost like a double sided screw.

Lastly, the spindles. I noticed in the store they have a dowel piece that is used on the bottom of the spindle. Maybe a 1/2" round hole. So do I drill that hole in the floor and then drill the underneath of the handrail to allow the spindle to be secured at the top too. Do you do this after the handrail is in place? I gues that if the spindle is doweled at the bottom and inserted into a hole up top, the hole up top needs to be deep to allow the spindle with dowel to slip into place.

Is 36" from floor to top of handrail a good height
Am I right on all this?
Sorry for long post trying to be thorough.


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

the connections made from rail to newel are done with railbolts. They should have them at HD. I use a 38" balcony height.You might be able to use a railbolt at the end where you wanted a rossete. The bolt may be to short though. You do need to drill the baluster holes a deep into the rail to get them in. If you read my 1st post i think I explained it a bit


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## bfan781 (Mar 11, 2010)

great, i read your 1st post a few times. lots of good info. i just wanted some clarification cause i don't do it everyday. So you drill it deep and then slide it in and tack it with a brad. I will use the railbolts and maybe they will work on other end too.

Where do you get your plugs for the lags?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

bfan781 said:


> great, i read your 1st post a few times. lots of good info. i just wanted some clarification cause i don't do it everyday. So you drill it deep and then slide it in and tack it with a brad. I will use the railbolts and maybe they will work on other end too.
> 
> Where do you get your plugs for the lags?


Plugs(about1") will come with the rail bolt, it's sort of a kit. Extra large plugs can be had at a local lumberyard or the internet(Rockler, Woodcraft, etc)
Ron


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

yes, the railbolts usually come with the 1" oak plugs. I always use regular drywall screws for installing my posts with a 3/8" countersink. This allows for a minimal size plug to fill.I make my own with a 3/8" plug cutter. I make them from a piece of the same material you are using.When you notch the post take it from the cut out. Lags are overkill. You dont really need them. 2-3 drywall screws combined with some adhesive is fine.


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

Millertyme said:


> yes, the railbolts usually come with the 1" oak plugs. I always use regular drywall screws for installing my posts with a 3/8" countersink. This allows for a minimal size plug to fill.I make my own with a 3/8" plug cutter. I make them from a piece of the same material you are using.When you notch the post take it from the cut out. Lags are overkill. You dont really need them. 2-3 drywall screws combined with some adhesive is fine.


I agree with this, it's what I do, although I'd rather use a ceramic coated screw because they don't snap off the way a drywall screw does.
Pre-drill, glue, clamp, screw:thumbsup:
and if you buy plugs, make sure they've been cut across the grain and are not just dowels


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## bfan781 (Mar 11, 2010)

ok, few more questions for you, Can you get a plug cutter at HD or box store? 
So those rail bolts are the way to go it looks like.

How do I know if a rail bolt will work on the other end? how much should bite into the trim/framing.


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 1, 2010)

A few other considerations and a different viewpoint.

It sounds like you are going to use pin top balusters but no mention is made of type of handrail, post-to-post or over-the-post. If over-the-post you will need to know about upeasings, level quarter turns, etc.

Rail height- first decide which balusters you will use, I.E. how tall are they and how long is the straight section of the pin top. What is the diameter of the pin top? Typically I will grind down a spade bit to fit the diameter of the baluster. You don't want to drill all your holes only to find out they are too large.

Baluster spacing- baluster spacing is measured at the most narrow part of the baluster, I.E. at the pin top. You do not want to lay out your balusters only to find out you are out of code at the top. Here is a link to a Utube I did on baluster spacing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itdqfmc8gX4 Pin tops are only slightly more involved, place two balusters side by side and arrange such that the most narrow part does not exceed 4", now measure the bottoms- that is your max spacing.

Newel attachment- I personally would never use drywall screws, they are not rated for that application. I use GRK's, they hold very well and have a good shear strength.

Newel placement- Handrail needs to have a constant height through the run of the stair. It cannot either rise or fall from top to bottom. Newels need to be placed before handrail. If you were to lay the handrail on the stair you can see that the farther it is from the nosing, the greater the distance from the tread to the bottom of the rail. The newel post needs to be taller the farther you go back from the nosing- by the distance from the bottom of the rail to the tread. The easiest way to find that amount is to take a framing square and draw the rise of the stair and the run of the stair ( measured from riser to riser- not from riser to nosing of tread) and then draw a line connecting the two. This is called a pitch block. Decide where you want your newel to be. For post-to-post it is the face and for over-the-post it is the center line. Measure that distance and add to desired rail height.

Stay away from box stores, find a good LOCAL lumber and order from them. You will get a better selection and better parts. This is a very brief overview but should get you started.


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## bfan781 (Mar 11, 2010)

keith,
thanks for the info. Whats the difference between post to post and over the post handrails? I do believe that I am using pin top and thanks for the heads up on the spacing. 

I am only doing the railing at the top of the steps. two short runs. straight.

Do you also glue everything with liquid nails? Do you have good results with rail bolts?


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## Keith Mathewson (Sep 1, 2010)

Chances are that if you are only doing short runs it is a post-to-post. Over the post is a continuous handrail system. I don't use liquid nails, I prefer PL premium. Do not use the dowels which come with the balusters, particularly if they are the removable kind. Use double end small lags. Rail bolts work very well but only one side can be used on a captured rail.


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## beerdog (Dec 10, 2008)

A kreg jint is not good enough for railings. Don't railings need ot suport like 200+ pounds falling on it. 

Read the LJ Smith manuals. They are free and a great start on understanding ballustrade basics.

http://www.ljsmith.com/default.aspx?category=13&page=19


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## Millertyme (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree with Keith on the threaded baluster inserts. They work great and really hold the balusters down tight with no visible fasteners. These are from lj smith but you may be able to find something similar at your local hardware store. they are 2-1/2"long and 1/4" diameter. I put them in all my stairs.Although they are not required, they are a much better alternative to the wood dowels attached to the balusters.








As far as the rail bolt into the wall end...the railbolt usually comes with about 2" of wood threads on one end and 2" of machine threads on the other end. The problem you might have is on the end going into the wall because you will need to go through 3/4" casing then 1/2" drywall which only leave 3/4" into the frame. you want to go into about 1-3/4" into the frame. so see if you can find one that is longer than the standard ones. These rail bolts can be a little tricky to install. they have special wrenches made for applying these. A regular 1/2" box wrench might work. if not you might need to buy a cheap one and grind it down on the sides to give it more swing.


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## mrgins (Jan 19, 2009)

Keith Mathewson said:


> Stay away from box stores, find a good LOCAL lumber and order from them. You will get a better selection and better parts. .


I agree with that, I mentioned going to a big box store because you can see all the parts and get an understanding of how they go together in addition to looking at schematics online. Bottom line at ANY store is to find someone who knows the product and the application


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