# vinyl Siding / Soffit Question



## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm fixing to get started on the vinyl siding on my building I have built. I am buying my siding from a local distributor and one of the guys they have working there used to be an installer. I've never done this stuff, so I'm pretty much going to go forward with whatever advice or instructions I am given. I have the PDF file that has the instructions (about 40 pages long) so I have a pretty good idea of the basics. I've been doing some studying, but I'm still not educated enough or experienced to understand the soffit enclosing teqniques. 

My total costs will be about $600 in siding and trim pieces. I don't have the money to do buy it all at the moment, so yesterday I went and got what I could get for about $150. I'll buy the rest in the next few weeks as I get the money saved up. 

He told me that I need to go ahead and do my corners, soffits and starter strips, to get them out of the way. So I bought enough starter strip to complete that, four corner pieces, all the vented soffit I will need, and some of the J-channel. I have not bought any of the siding panels yet. 

Myself and the guy that used to be the installer were discussing how I am going to do my soffits. You can see here in this picture what I have. There are 1' overhangs all the way around. 








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After looking at some of the different methods, and talking about it with him, he said an easy way to do it was to put a 2x nailing strip up against the building outside wall, and nail my soffit piece to that. Here is an illustration of what I'm talking about. The normal way would be on the left I suppose, and the way he is telling me to do it would be the one I drew on the right:










The 2x nailing piece is the square yellow box. The siding itself is indicated in green. 

My question is, When does the 2x piece need to be added? I was thinking about this, and for some reason I feel like the 2x nailing strip should be nailed on top of the last piece of siding, so as to cover the gap that would be left exposed if it were added after the strip was attached.

I can't figure out that little intersection. Even if I nail the 2x strip to the wall first and run the siding up to it, the soffit piece will also be cut and run up (along the bottom of the 2x) to that corner where it will meet the wall. I know that cut will not be perfect, so what covers that???

He said the reason he used to use a 2x strip like this is because it is way cheaper than f-channel or J-channel, and works just as good. I just can't figure out why he told me to do my soffit pieces first if this strip must nail on top of the siding. 

I'm sorry this is so long, I'm just trying to be sure I put enough info out there so you folks can understand me.


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

hi, do your soffit first, channel against your wall. Like pic on the left. siding j trim against the soffit, opening down, siding into j-trim= no gap


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

craig4 said:


> hi, do your soffit first, channel against your wall. Like pic on the left. siding j trim against the soffit, opening down, siding into j-trim= no gap


can you be more specific on this? I'm not quite sure I understand. You mention J-trim, but isn't that F-trim in the illustration on left?


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

you need the small siding trim against the soffit, are you using the large 2-3" trim around your windows or the small 3/4" trim?


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

the only "trim" I have at the moment is j-channel. it is 5/8 j-channel. Here is a picture with the windows in. They are simply aluminum windows, which I was under the assumption would be lined in j-channel all the way around. 








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## DexterII (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm going to refrain from answering some our questions, becasue I am sure that there are a number of people here with much more experience with vinyl siding that I have, but, regardless, I would definitely use the channel for the soffit, rather than blocking. Different types of materials expand and contract at varying rates, which is one of the reasons that you hear popping along soffits. One of the things that people often do with trim is to use to many nails, or drive them too tight; with the channel, cut the soffit an 1/8" or so short, so that it does not bind, slip it in place, and let it float.


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

that's right, I only ask because a lot of people use the larger trim around their windows. You don't have it, so it doesn't matter. The j-trim 
goes against your soffit, just like the bottem of your windows


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

DexterII said:


> I'm going to refrain from answering some our questions, becasue I am sure that there are a number of people here with much more experience with vinyl siding that I have, but, regardless, I would definitely use the channel for the soffit, rather than blocking. Different types of materials expand and contract at varying rates, which is one of the reasons that you hear popping along soffits. One of the things that people often do with trim is to use to many nails, or drive them too tight; with the channel, cut the soffit an 1/8" or so short, so that it does not bind, slip it in place, and let it float.


You would still use the soffit trim, I think people use it for a straighter edge,i.e. attach the trim to the 2x2 instead of the wall. I just use a chalk line on the wall


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

http://www.supervinylsider.com/images/tony_soffit_and_fascia_-_1_ip.jpg
does this help? It doesn't matter it there is a 2x2 under there or not
sorry it is f trim


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I found this, it looks exactly like what I am talking about. Except he uses a piece of wide trim or something to butt up to the soffit at the top of the wall. 

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/installing-vinyl-siding.aspx

If you look at the pdf version, on the second page down it has a cutaway on a house and looks exactly like what I'm talking about. The is an orange circle with "wide casings relpace j-channel"

I'm not sure if this would be a good way to do it or not.


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

On the gable ends you need to finish with j channel.On the eaves depending on where you siding ends you'll need undersill to lock siding in.If siding ends on hump you could need both!!2x or f channel this is the best finish!


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Jasonlongor1 said:


> On the gable ends you need to finish with j channel.On the eaves depending on where you siding ends you'll need undersill to lock siding in.If siding ends on hump you could need both!!2x or f channel this is the best finish!


i think undersill may be the piece I don't know about and am searching for..not sure lol


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## craig4 (Mar 27, 2011)

that's right he just used the fat trim instead of j channel. it is only for looks. you can use the 2x2 on the wall if you want but I don't see why.
snap a line on the wall level with your sub facia, 2x4 on the overhang, install f-trim on the line and the sub facia. fill with soffit. Trim all windows/doors/corners/ soffit, wait till payday, buy siding, install. sorry if I wasn't making much sense but I think we got there, Didn't we?


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

That piece butts up to soffit or 2x nailed with flange down then cut siding gets snap locked into it.It only accepts thin edge of cut siding which why it can't be used on the humps of siding or gable ends and why j is used here.That is the name of it though.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes I'm following you Craig, but I'm still unsure of what could be done. Not saying this guy is right, but he steered me away from j channel right there and f-channel for a reason. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the reason is. 

I just thought of somehting else. I'm sitting here picturing myself cutting these pieces of soffit to fit exactly, like the place where it needs to butt up to the wall, and then nailing them. I forgot completely about the way the stuff contracts and expands, so that won't even work. There has got to be some sort of trim in that corner under the 2x nailing strip, whether it be j channel, f-channel, wide trim to cover the gap that will surely show up from time to time be contraction of the soffit piece..


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm sorry if I confused you more or butted in.I'm new to this and was just trying to help.If you use 2x you don't need f,but you still would need j channel or undersill to terminate siding panel.If you use narrow j which is fine you'll need caulking to help secure the siding.Undersill is different in that you snap lock it in.In your link Mike G uses wide vinyl j casing,I have that as well but it is pricey.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Jasonlongor1 said:


> I'm sorry if I confused you more or butted in.I'm new to this and was just trying to help.If you use 2x you don't need f,but you still would need j channel or undersill to terminate siding panel.If you use narrow j which is fine you'll need caulking to help secure the siding.Undersill is different in that you snap lock it in.In your link Mike G uses wide vinyl j casing,I have that as well but it is pricey.


You didn't butt in man. I need all the help I can get lol. 

Maybe that is what he meant for me to do with the J-channel. The stuff comes in 12' lengths you know, and I have fourteen of them on my quote paper. I bought half of them yesterday, which was seven. I don't think it will take fourteen j-channel pieces to go around my windows, door, and roll up door..Maybe the rest should be used for the place we are talking about, right up in that corner at the bottom of the nailing strip. 

I see now what you guys are talking about with the nailing strip not really being needed, but maybe it will keep the j channel more straight (assuming that is what I will use there). 

What exactly is the author of that pdf getting at when he says that "j channel is the hallmark of most bad vinyl jobs"..


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

The j buts tight to the soffit after the soffit is nailed to the 2x or in f channel.As you lock in you last siding piece dab caulking in the bottom where it locks in to the previous piece.Hhmm!!Wouldn't you rather big pieces of wide J trim,mitered perfect and standing proud and not cheap looking??Nothing beats cedar tho.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I do have caulk in my quote so apparently this might be what I would use it for.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Do the trim pieces - like j-channel for around the windows and doors - need to be nailed tight? 

It would seem like if you go through the trouble of making a nice miter joint, the last thing you would want is for it to be moving around and looking sloppy..


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

Yes trim and only trim gets nailed tight.Starter as well just don't over do it or faces will flare out.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Jasonlongor1 said:


> Yes trim and only trim gets nailed tight.Starter as well just don't over do it or faces will flare out.


No, nothing gets nailed tight. 

JS I thought you said you have the 40+ page manual, it’s all in there. Just encase you don’t here it is.

http://www.vinylsiding.org/publications/0804_VSI_2007Manual.pdf


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## Jasonlongor1 (Apr 9, 2011)

Sorry not trying to mislead and I'll admit I've never read that just telling you how I do it.But I do notice alot of questions you have are explained in it such as the utility trim( undersill) and also in the article in the link you posted.Good luck.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

not only that but if you don't use a channel or L shaped piece of metal there you will be looking at the sheathing in the soffit panel grooves:yes:

your ''installer'' made a mistake


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## Brian42 (Apr 12, 2011)

How are you going to make the transition from the sidewall soffit to the soffit running up the gable?


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

A couple ideas for you:
The pic shows the L shaped metal Tom mentioned.
This can go up against your 2x framing on the eaves as well
as the gable ends under the soffit.
Then the J will butt to the bottom of your soffit to accept the last 
piece of siding and help hold up the soffit.

We usually incorporate the J into our returns and direct any water 
that may get into it into the corner J.
Depending on your helps abilities,the built in J will give a much
cleaner look and help eliminate a possible water infiltration point.

Since your returns will not line up with the corners,you can run a
J along the bottom of it,then return it towards the gable soffit J.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

That picture definitely clears some things up. What is the purpose of the "L metal?" I talked to the guy again at the distributor and he said exactly the same thing about how it gets mounted up under the nailing strip. I don't understand why in the world this piece goes there. Obviously there is no ledge for the soffit to sit on.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

J S Machine said:


> That picture definitely clears some things up. What is the purpose of the "L metal?"


 It will keep you from seeing the felt paper in the soffit groves
after the J is installed under it.

quote=J S Machine;629589] Obviously there is no ledge for the soffit to sit on.[/quote]

The top of the J will butt to the bottom of the soffit, positioned to accept
the top of the last piece of siding.I guess you could call this your ledge.

Imagine that your J is the trim piece in this pic.
It basically serves the same purpose.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I see now. I have seen the light..lol. 

So really and truly I need a brake to even get started. Any ideas on where I could rent one of these things?


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Depending on how confident you are in using a brake,the rental cost,the aggravation of transporting it,the
possibility of wasting material,and a maybe a less than desirable result,I might be inclined to just hire out
this part of the job.
Didn't you say somewhere that you had help that use to install?


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

No I do not have help. When I looked into where to get the siding materials, I found a local place. One of the guys they have working there used to install it, and he has been giving me tips and pointers of how to do it.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Ask him about rentals in your area,and see if he has Saturday's off.
Everyone could use a few extra $'s,maybe he'd be willing to help.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

I think I may have done these outside corner posts wrong. If you look at this picture, you can see where I cut the post off even with the bottom of the soffit. 










I think I should have run this right side of the post all the way up to the gable soffit, and notched it out for the front. I know I can add a half piece of corner to this gable end wall and lengthen it up to the gable soffit, but I feel like that wont look right.

Will this work or should I have notched it like I was explaining?


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## Brian42 (Apr 12, 2011)

Yes you should have notched it, but unless you want to buy another corner you'll have to patch it in somehow. Have you done any other corners or is this the first?


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## Brian42 (Apr 12, 2011)

Or you could do like the picture in post 26 I've never seen that done that way before but it looks like a very workable thing to do that may still work!


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

Brian42 said:


> Yes you should have notched it, but unless you want to buy another corner you'll have to patch it in somehow. Have you done any other corners or is this the first?


I've already cut them all. Oh well . 

I think all four of the corners were around $50. I may just pick up some more of them. I really hate to patch them.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Your corners will work alright.
Just extend the last piece of soffit over it and have the return
bent to meet it.
We do it all the time,even without the framed box there.
I'll see if I can draw up some pics of what I'm trying to explain.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry to interrupt. Did anyone mention the window flashing is wrong? 

Gary


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Here you go,
A good brake guy could do this or something similar to address that area.


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

GBR in WA said:


> Sorry to interrupt. Did anyone mention the window flashing is wrong?
> 
> Gary


How so? 

Can you please elaborate? I know the bottom strip of flashing should be under the window flange instead of over. Is this what you are talking about?


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## J S Machine (Oct 6, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> Here you go,
> A good brake guy could do this or something similar to address that area.


This is what Brian42 is talking about, as illustrated in post 26. That could work. I am still looking at what to do.


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## Tom Struble (Dec 29, 2008)

oldfrt said:


> Depending on how confident you are in using a brake,the rental cost,the aggravation of transporting it,the
> possibility of wasting material,and a maybe a less than desirable result,I might be inclined to just hire out
> this part of the job.
> Didn't you say somewhere that you had help that use to install?


 
you do the nicest brake work oldfrt:thumbup::notworthy:


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, the bottom too. http://www.mtcc1170.com/images/BCRainScreen.pdf

Gary


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