# SW Brilliance Ceiling Paint - Seeing Roller marks



## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Hey Everyone - thanks for the input and comments that make this site great!

I am in the middle of a significant family room remodel. 

So far I've:

- I've removed wood paneling & had drywall installed
- Installed recessed lights
- Had the 1/2 wall brick fireplace refaced with stack stone all the way up the wall
- Wired for home theater/surround sound

Whats left:

- Paint the ceiling & walls
- Remove carpet, install hardwoods
- Install trim
- Relax!

As the title suggests, I'm running into problems with painting the ceiling. I'm not an experienced painter, but I have painted a few walls that turned out just fine. I've painted the flat ceiling with 3 separate coats of SW Brilliance flat ceiling paint with a 1/2 " nap and I'm seeing textured spots throughout. These spots look blotchy from rolling the ceiling, and I do not know why. It looks as if some areas of the ceiling has more texture in some areas than others, and it does not look uniform. 

After painting 3 coats, I figure I'm an idiot if I keep trying the same thing expecting different results. Any help?

Should I sand the ceiling with a fine grit sandpaper?


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

If your seeing roller marks and blotchy areas you probally didn't maintain a wet edge and apply enough product. Use a quality 1/2 inch roller sleeve. Maintain a wet edge and spply enough paint to the ceiling without spreading it to far. I like rolling the second coat on a ceiling in the oppositte direction of the first coat. Ceilings are easiest with 2 people.


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks for the reply HP-NY.

So lets say you are right, I didn't apply enough product or maintain a wet edge. So will another thick coat solve that issue? Or do I need to lightly sand the area first?

Another reason I heard from my local SW is that perhaps the roller could be 'pulling' paint from the ceiling to the roller as I paint, which can give that 'textured' appearance...


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Bentley, rolling ceilings takes a special touch. I have some articles on working with rollers and painting ceilings that might prove helpful. Click on the And, more DIY Painting Articles in my signature line below. I can see your ceiling in my mind's eye. The articles will help.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

bentleyvt said:


> Thanks for the reply HP-NY.
> 
> So lets say you are right, I didn't apply enough product or maintain a wet edge. So will another thick coat solve that issue? Or do I need to lightly sand the area first?
> 
> Another reason I heard from my local SW is that perhaps the roller could be 'pulling' paint from the ceiling to the roller as I paint, which can give that 'textured' appearance...


No need to sand anything. Get a quality cover and get a lot of paint up there moving right along, it will be fine. You should really only ever need 2 coats of that paint, it is pretty good stuff.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Joe and I were typing at the same time:laughing:. Take his advise:yes:


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

I have noticed that I have more roller marks using the Brilliance. Classic 99 ceiling paint did not produce this problem. Now, these roller marks don't show up really bad, but, I can see them. Classic 99 was great for textured ceilings as you could apply it heavily and it would soak up into the texture giving a nice even (rollermark free) finish. I guess there will be a learning curve with the reformulated/new Brilliance.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I've never used Brilliance. But I've used the new waterborne ceiling flat by BM. I really didn't notice much difference in how it applies. What is about the brilliance that would leave marks? I'm asking because Gymshoes:laughing: is having experiences. I'd expect an HO to say that, but when a pro has issues I perk up. I notice that they market brilliance as one coat, that makes me nervous. I did use that Resilience. Gag. Didn't care for that at all.


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Hmm...so if I've used nearly 3 gallons/3 coats of Brilliance on an 18.5 x 13.5 room, is it wise to continue or should I call a local professional???? The first gallon was SOAKED right up into the sheetrock. The 2nd coat, I painted in the same direction as the first. The 3rd coat I painted in the opposite direction. 

I kept using more because people said I'd experience these problems by using too little paint. By my limited experience and SW's 'one-coat' coverage, I think I've used too much paint! 

Like Gymschu said, the roller marks on mine aren't that bad - most of the time a ceiling is hardly noticed. But when you do look at the ceiling, it is very visable blotchyness throughout the ceiling.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

bentleyvt said:


> Hmm...so if I've used nearly 3 gallons/3 coats of Brilliance on an 18.5 x 13.5 room, is it wise to continue or should I call a local professional???? The first gallon was SOAKED right up into the sheetrock. The 2nd coat, I painted in the same direction as the first. The 3rd coat I painted in the opposite direction.
> 
> I kept using more because people said I'd experience these problems by using too little paint. By my limited experience and SW's 'one-coat' coverage, I think I've used too much paint!
> 
> Like Gymschu said, the roller marks on mine aren't that bad - most of the time a ceiling is hardly noticed. But when you do look at the ceiling, it is very visable blotchyness throughout the ceiling.


Bentley, I feel bad about your experience. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say SW has reformulated its' ceiling paint to the point that coverage is lacking a bit. Classic 99 was great.......one coat coverage. I'd definitely say you have used too much paint! THREE gallons, wow. In hindsight, a primer, then a topcoat may have been in order, but, to be honest, I rarely prime a ceiling.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Bentley, breathe. Your coverage area is 749 sq ft (3 coats)(18.5 x 13.5). The theoretical paint coverage is 350-400 p/gal. If you're into the third gallon, your problem is not using enough paint, as two gallons would cover 749. You should only be a few drops into the third can, if any. Was the ceiling bare sheetrock or previously painted? A bad priming/first coat job on bare sheetrock can make your final finishing miserable. SW is doing a double whammy here, as Brilliance is not only "one coat coverage", it's also paint and primer in one. PP. If you read the specs on the tech sheet, they're talking out both side of their mouths. It sounds to me like your not applying the product uniformly, which is easy to do on ceilings as a DIY, especially if you don't have the proper workspace set up. If the texture seems it would be visible, patching may be in order. Read the articles I suggested, cause if I'm correct in the uniformity issue, the articles will be helpful. I would also suggest you hang up on Brilliance, and switch to something like Ben Moore Super Spec flat, easy to use, nice and flat. Chalk it up to a learning experience and rolling practice. Good Luck.
edit; Gymschu posted while I was writing, so were both on to the quantities used. Gymschu, I would say that a lot of paints are being reformulated to the point that they're getting ridiculous, especially when they're marketing to HO's who don't work with product everyday, and don't have the experience to know when somethings changed and a different approach is required, and they haven't a clue as to what different approach to take.


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## housepaintingny (Jul 25, 2009)

bentleyvt said:


> Hmm...so if I've used nearly 3 gallons/3 coats of Brilliance on an 18.5 x 13.5 room, is it wise to continue or should I call a local professional???? The first gallon was SOAKED right up into the sheetrock. The 2nd coat, I painted in the same direction as the first. The 3rd coat I painted in the opposite direction.
> 
> I kept using more because people said I'd experience these problems by using too little paint. By my limited experience and SW's 'one-coat' coverage, I think I've used too much paint!
> 
> Like Gymschu said, the roller marks on mine aren't that bad - most of the time a ceiling is hardly noticed. But when you do look at the ceiling, it is very visable blotchyness throughout the ceiling.


You said the first coat soaked right up? So the ceiling was old, dry and should have been primed first then with a quality primer, because the ceiling was not primed and the first coat was absorbed into the drywall you used three coats. The first coat acted like a primer in a sense. I've used Brillance before when it first came out and SW gave me some to demo. I didn't have a problem with it. As for one coat coverage that would be over a ceiling that was not older and dryed.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Brilliance is niether self priming or one coat, they lie.:whistling2:

Is there ANY one coat or self priming paint, I have not come across any:no:

I will say ,after using 10 gals the last couple days, 2 coats makes a very nice finish, very white, which I like.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Joe, you hit on one of the most frustrating aspects of professional painting..............the reformulation of paints you love working with. I can remember when SW's SuperPaint was reformulated it took some time to learn to work with the new stuff after having so much success with the old stuff. THis is definitely going on with SW's ceiling paint which used to be Classic 99 and is now called Brilliance.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Brilliance is niether self priming or one coat, they lie.:whistling2:
> 
> Is there ANY one coat or self priming paint, I have not come across any:no:
> 
> I will say ,after using 10 gals the last couple days, 2 coats makes a very nice finish, very white, which I like.


I've never seen a one and done finish either. However, I have seen some finishes that a lot of other painters would consider one and done. Close, but no cigar. Are you painting full time again?


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Chrisn - I wish my two coats would have made a nice finish! I do like the extra white look though, very clean. 

I think I'm going to do a quick google search for painters in my area and see if I can get someone to come take a look and finish it quick. I don't think it should take too long for a professional since I've already painted in 3 times! And I'm not sure what a good rate is either...since I've done all the painting myself (multiple rooms and the entire exterior of my home last year). 

SW recommended that I just sand down the ceiling and that I may not need to put another coat of paint on. I'm hesitant to sand because even flat ceiling paint HAS a texture to it....so I think whatever I sand will be much smoother than the rest of the ceiling. 

I'm a new homeowner and like DIY jobs, so this has been a little disappointing to have spent so much time and $ on painting a ceiling...and STILL having to call in a professional. I'll avoid ceilings in the future, and if I must paint, I'll use something other than Brilliance. But for whomever I hire, I'd like to stick with Brilliance....


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

bentleyvt said:


> Chrisn - I wish my two coats would have made a nice finish! I do like the extra white look though, very clean.
> 
> I think I'm going to do a quick google search for painters in my area and see if I can get someone to come take a look and finish it quick. I don't think it should take too long for a professional since I've already painted in 3 times! And I'm not sure what a good rate is either...since I've done all the painting myself (multiple rooms and the entire exterior of my home last year).
> 
> ...


 
That just makes no sense whatever, I cannot believe anyone with ANY knowledge of painting would say such a thing. Idiots:yes:

You anywhere near Maryland?:whistling2:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

I think his name is Bentley, and he's from VT, Vermont.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

chrisn said:


> That just makes no sense whatever, I cannot believe anyone with ANY knowledge of painting would say such a thing. Idiots:yes:
> 
> You anywhere near Maryland?:whistling2:


I thought they only gave out stupid advice at Home Depot - you know, where you love to buy your Behr Paint! :laughing:


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> I think his name is Bentley, and he's from VT, Vermont.


Haha...Dog's name is Bentley & I went to Virginia Tech. I live in Central VA, but its way too small of a job for any travel.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

bentleyvt said:


> Haha...Dog's name is Bentley & I went to Virginia Tech. I live in Central VA, but its way too small of a job for any travel.


Well, I am only 4 or 5 hours away:whistling2:


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Well, I am only 4 or 5 hours away:whistling2:


LOL...I dont want to pay the travel costs!!! But I do appreciate the offer. 

So I just had the same guy come who put up the drywall in the new family room to see about painting the ceiling because he also paints. He quoted $150! 

I hope I'm not stepping on any painter's toes on here, but that seems crazy expensive for 250 sq ft ceiling thats already been painted 3 times....AND I'd provide the paint. 

Sooooooo...I might try to do it again myself...whats another $20 bucks wasted on paint haha. Should I keep using the 1/2 inch nap I have or go to something bigger. This contractor asked if I was putting any pressure on the roller, because it looked like I didnt. I did put pressure on it...not an excessive amount, but the roller was definitely flat against the ceiling. He also said that it probably wouldnt be a good idea to sand because it has an 'orange peel' texture. 

Let me know if you think a bigger nap would do better! Thanks!


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Heres a cellphone shot of the blotchyness....


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Bently, Now I feel like I'm talking to the dog. 150 is not way out of line. How much is the amount of time you're going to spend doing it worth to you, and if it isn't done right, you may be calling him back. From your last post I can see that you didn't read my articles, else you wouldn't have a question about pressure on the roller. NO PRESSURE. You admitted that this was harder than you thought, then take the advice that you were given. Painting isn't rocket science, but it isn't as easy as people think or the DIY profiteers would have you believe. A UV degree doesn't mean you don't need to learn about paint and painting, I have a University of Rochester degree and I still have to do my homework, after decades in the business. The articles will help you, read them. Heel boy.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Bently, it doesn't look like you put any paint on the roller! Load that 1/2 inch nap roller up with paint.........make sure it's a Purdy or a Wooster roller cover. Roll it in the tray 7 or 8 times to "prime" the nap..........roll it so full of paint that it ALMOST drips off the nap. Roll 2 or 3 sq. ft. then reload til it's soaking wet again, repeat. Put LOTS OF PAINT ON THAT THING! As Joe said, NO PRESSURE, let the roller do the work. The only other possible reason it could look that splotchy is if the space above the ceiling is attic space that is super hot and it's making the paint dry almost the instant you put it on.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Good point on the heat Gymschu, and it could also be that he's rolling every which way, non uniformly, and back into stuff already set. Kind of like you see them doing on HGTV and tv commercials, in their dockers, with no drops, working out of full paint cans, wiping the brush on the rim of the can, while commenting about how "fun" this is. While painting is enjoyable, therapeutic even, I wouldn't consider it fun. But I digress, another thing Bently's owner has going against him is the size of the ceiling and the sight vantage it gives in combination with the strong lighting coming in from the windows. It's unforgiving. What people don't understand is that flat paint does all the same things that sheen paints do, it's just that flat doesn't reflect light so they're less visible that with sheens. There are some lighting conditions that will give you a hard time even with a flat. Take a ceiling that looks great from the floor and step up a ladder and look at it from a foot below and see the difference. You can't take using flat for granted.


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## ltd (Jan 16, 2011)

150 bucks to paint that ceiling ,hes going to drive to your house set up ,roll the ceiling that you messed up ,basically his days shot, . hey he probably don't have any kids to worry about feeding,or buying school clothes,i bet he doesn't have a house payment , workers comp,health ins van payment. hes just a painter ,oh what a minute but one thing he can do is roll that dang ceiling .


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

ltd said:


> 150 bucks to paint that ceiling ,hes going to drive to your house set up ,roll the ceiling that you messed up ,basically his days shot, . hey he probably don't have any kids to worry about feeding,or buying school clothes,i bet he doesn't have a house payment , workers comp,health ins van payment. hes just a painter ,oh what a minute but one thing he can do is roll that dang ceiling .


Thanks ltd, that's why I said that 150 is not way out. At least his morning is shot. It's a special trip, one shot deal. 150 may be high for one coat if it was part of a much larger job at that house, but. I encounter this stuff a lot. People think you roll up to the job and just open cans, bang, bang, done. I think it's part of the DIY perception that people get from what they see on TV about what goes into painting, and how easy they make it seem. It's valuable that HO's mingle with pros here because it helps them to see what's real and what's TV. And that helps them when they need to evaluate painting proposals. I might not be able to tell someone what an exact price on a job should be, without calculating, but I sure can tell them what's too high or too low. And I think if people who come here listen to what's being said, think about it, that they'll be able to do the same.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Already gone over, but the next time use a GOOD 3/4 nap cover.

PS Hire the damn painter. $150 is cheap:yes:


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## bentleyvt (Sep 7, 2011)

Sorry guys, I apologize for looking at it at a per hour basis and thinking $150 is high. I kind of thought that it takes me about an hour per coat...and since I've already done 3 coats, he shouldn't be worried about coverage as much so it may go quicker for him. And this guy did do the drywall for the room - 10 hours of work, 2 workers = 20 hours of work + materials for $600 bucks. And I thought that was an awesome deal and he did a fantastic job. I actually had the painting the ceiling part of a combination of jobs I needed from him. 1) painting the ceiling, 2) putting a skim coat on the bathroom walls where wallpaper was removed, 3) repairing a small area of drywall under the porch roof where the tape is coming off. $400 for everything. I might try doing the ceiling once more based on all of the feedback here. Once again, sorry for stepping on toes! I'm a new homeowner and was just looking for advice.

Actually Joe, I did read your stuff. The picture is from before I started posting on this forum. Thanks for the articles though, they are helpful...I will use the advice for other painting projects as well. When I did paint the ceiling, the first 2 coats I did towards the windows and the 3rd coat my Dad did the opposite direction. You are correct, the afternoon sun shines right through those windows and brightens the room - it is very unforgiving! 

Gymschu, thanks for the advice. I thought I was putting a lot of paint on the roller...I mean, I did use 3 gallons on 250 sq. feet. I am using a Purdy White Dove 1/2 inch nap. The space above the family room is the master bedroom, so it shouldn't be drying so quick like being below an attic. I will use the 3x3 advice, I was probably trying to cover a 2x6 area with some overlapping, maybe shorter strokes will help.


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## MikeKy55 (Nov 4, 2009)

I use to have the roller mark problem bad. I just finished my basement and came here for advice. Joe explained how to properly use a roller and I did one area that is 28 X 12 and not one roller track. Mine is such when you come down the basment stairs, there is a cut out in the wall where I'm putting a hand rail and spindles. You are at one point are level with the ceiling and if there were roller marks they would really stand out. After coming here and listening, I learned how to roll paint correctly. I just wish I had know what I learned here 35 years ago. I don't mind painting at all now. I use to hate it.

Thanks Joe :thumbup:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Mike, that's great to hear. Hearing success stories like yours makes it all worthwhile. It shows that you're a great student. I know what I know because of the amount of time and energy dedicated to what I do, and the care I take in my approach to it. Just as you would be in your chosen field. And just as you wouldn't expect me to know the intricacies of your trade, I don't either. In spite of my time in the business, I still approach some jobs nervously and walk away from some and shoot up a prayer. To make paint work for you, to look good and last, requires a bit of knowledge, patience, and application. It's not easy. I think that some who come through here dismiss those points because they think painting is so easy that anybody can do it, and to ask for help on such a simple task is beneath them. They're asking for help, but I can read that attitude between their lines. And they don't fare so well here, because they're not receptive. I've seen it in young, inexperienced guys who have worked for me, as well as those here. It requires a bit of humility to learn as well. Some are just to know it all to be good students. Thanks for your kind words and being a great example of the power of DIYChatroom.


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## MikeKy55 (Nov 4, 2009)

Your quite welcome Joe. When someone spends 'their time' to help me, I feel a duty to thank them and let them know their efforts are appreciated.

I have received help here on several topics. 

This is clearly the best DIY site on the web.

So the thanks go to you. :thumbsup:


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Anybody CAN paint, nothing to it.

Painting properly, now, that is a whole different can of worms:whistling2:


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Amen brother. We may not be able to change the world, but we can change our little corner of it.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> It sounds to me like your not applying the product uniformly, which is easy to do on ceilings as a DIY, especially if you don't have the proper workspace set up. If the texture seems it would be visible, patching may be in order. Read the articles I suggested, cause if I'm correct in the uniformity issue, the articles will be helpful. I would also suggest you hang up on Brilliance, and switch to something like Ben Moore Super Spec flat, easy to use, nice and flat. Chalk it up to a learning experience and rolling practice. Good Luck.


I’m hanging up on *Brilliance*… I’ve had the same experience as the OP just recently. The SW manager heard my complaints and told me to try their SuperPaint flat, free of charge! So I’m trying to steer my attitude in the right direction and give this ceiling one more try, three times a charm… right?!

I primed the entire room with SW HighBuild primer using a 18” x 1/2” Wooster sleeve. Overall it came out nice, uniform texture and uniform coverage. I read jsheridan’s tutorial 5 times to make sure I was using the right technique, lol, sure enough it seemed to work! I then used a 18” x 3/8” Purdy white Dove sleeve to apply the SW Brilliance ceiling paint. I choose this roller as a beginner because I figured it would force me to use less while maintaining good coverage. Also, I heard it was one of the best for low lint. The first 10ft went on great using jsheridan’s technique, but the further I got the worse it got!? By the time I finished the 25x11 foot room I had flashing going on all over half the room. I ended up using 2g of Brilliance to cover the ceiling (1st coat). The following day I tried to correct the flashing areas by using another full gallon of the paint (2nd coat). The same result, maybe even worse. At this point I got up on a ladder and inspected the ceiling, sure enough I was getting smooth and rough areas… causing the blotching and dark shadowing across my ceiling. It doesn’t look that bad when the can lights are on, but during the day when the natural light crosses the ceiling you see it and it’s horrible. 
My theory, whenI load the Brilliance ceiling paint lightly across the ceiling the damage is already done. It’s filling in the grooves and texture. By the time I spread it out only a little texture returns, but not enough to create a uniform look over a 3x6 area. I’ve put it on heavy and light, both ways, it doesn’t seem to matter. In the end after applying 3g of the stuff I decided to re-texturize the ceiling with the HighBuild primer. It looked awesome, I was tempted to leave it at that, but I know that’s not right, lol. So I went back early this week and tried to apply another layer of Brilliance on the ceiling, really paying attention to my technique and the way I loaded the 18” roller in the pan. This time a 3x11 foot area came out OK, I was applying it uniformly and the first run looked great, but by the second run the problem started reoccurring…. SOB!!! I started cross rolling at this point, mid-stream to try and correct the issue. I ended up putting another gallon of the stuff on the ceiling only to have it turn out like crap. I’ve given up on the Brilliance at this point and switching to the SuperPaint. I figure if I can make the ceiling look sweet with the HighBuild primer, maybe I can do the same with the SP!?

My question to you guys… I’m I using the wrong roller with Brillance? I’ve used Purdy’s 3/8" and 3/4" white Dove, neither seem to work well. At least for me, the Wooster applies the HB primer just fine and Purdy's 1/2" white Dove works well with SW Duration on the walls. So I don’t know what is wrong, if it’s me or the wrong combination of tools…?

See pictures for evidence of issue. 


SW brillance_three quarter_Purdy Dove_2 by Zquicksilver, on Flickr


SW brillance_three quarter_Purdy Dove_1 by Zquicksilver, on Flickr


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

To be honest, in the second picture you simply did not apply enough paint. I say this over and over.......load that roller sleeve up with paint! It should be nearly dripping wet with paint. I use a 1/2" Wooster & it puts on plenty of paint. Don't push.......lay the paint on. You do have to move rather quickly as ceiling paint sets up quickly. Even doing it right you can still get uneven results with Brilliance. I wish I knew why........I loved Classic 99 ceiling paint.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

that's the crazy thing about it... i did load the roller (3/4") with paint, practically dripping and applied it nice and wet. it actually cracked in some areas it was so thick. it seems, at least with me, the brilliance goes on and creates unforseen texture out of nowhere. that's why i asked the questoin here, i can't figure it out  i'm going to try and use the SuperPaint in the morning with a 1/2 Wooster, going parallel with the windows and perpendicular with the main entrance. 

i originally started in a corner (1st run) and did a 3x6 area, then crossed over to the other side of the room and did the other half, also a 3x6 area. using a 18" roller...
i moved on and began the (2nd run) just behind the (1st run), crossing back and forth, barely overlapping. I did the entire 25x11 room like this, dividing the (11ft) in half, working my way down the long portion of the room.

is there some sort of paint extender i can add to keep it from drying so damn fast, maybe thin it out a little, this stuff seems like pancake batter at times.

thanks!


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

maybe i'll use this guys painting technique on my ceiling tomorrow... this guy does a really good job!! it's one of the better videos on YouTube, as far as learning and watching others paint ceilings. OH wait, it's JackPauhl, no wonder it looks so easy, lol! and to be honest, i did paint my ceiling in a similar fashion, stupid Brilliance! i'm going to give it one last shot tomorrow...

http://www.youtube.com/user/jackpauhl

and NO, i didn't run into problems because i didn't paint like this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r31WyiZihjU&feature=relmfu


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Brilliance would be my last choice( well maybe not last) for ceiling paint. That being said try adding some of this


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Chris, I still haven't tried your PPG recomendation for ceiling paint. I have a gallon on standby......

Jawa........sorry about your problems with Brilliance. I, too, am very frustrated with it. Used to be you could get by with ONE coat of Classic 99 on a ceiling. Now, TWO coats of Brilliance doesn't even look good. Very disappointing.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I have been looking at the pics and have a question
Are they anywhere near smooth and level?


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

If you're referring to the drywall, yes, it is smooth and level, but not perfect. First, I re-leveled the ceiling joist in the kitchen area, it was gutted. Second, I blended the old and new ceiling at about the 2/3rds point, where the small partition can be seen. Third, I skimmed the entire ceiling with 1/4" sheet rock. I tried my best to make sure the last layer of sheet rock was secured and not bouncing around after installation. I think I see where you’re going with this and it could be the reason for of my problems. At this point I cannot blame the SW Brilliance paint entirely. I think it's about 6 factors that contributed to my roller marks and inconsistent texture.

1. ME (not enough experience 1st time doing a ceiling with 18" roller)
2. Not working quickly enough!
3. Not loading paint evenly, in the pan and during application
4. I had a fan blowing warmer air into a cooler room.
5. The ceiling is not perfect and using a larger roller will definitely skip over low spots.
6. Over working the paint and maybe using a 3/4" roller wasn't the best idea!?
7. SW Brilliance paint and me are not compatible… 

It’s kind of odd, but the 1/2” Wooster sleeve (Lowe’s blue colored) and the SW HighBuild primer went on perfect and blended into the nice area of my ceiling covered in Brilliance!? That’s the part I don’t get. I went back and looked at my ceiling for about 10min this weekend. I found that a 3rd of my celling looked like a pro did it. I could only find one area with a slight difference in texture, but you had to look for it. The other 2/3rds came out like crap… IMHO. I went back and talked with the SW guys again and decided to I will try CHB, verse Brilliance from SW. It costs about 20% less a gallon and I can’t see a big difference between the two. It’s has a much thinner viscosity according to them and I think it will be better suited to me. I’m also consulting a more experienced painter, I may have him do all my ceilings at once!? We shall see…

In the meantime, I went back and skimmed a super tight layer of mud over the heavy textured areas and areas that had deep cavities in the paint. In my experience, it seems even the HB primer cannot correct these troubled areas. This was my only solution… what a pain in the ass!


Filled in rough areas...


Kitchen_paint_patch by Zquicksilver, on Flickr


Pic of HighBuild primer


Primed_SW highbuild_half inch wooster by Zquicksilver, on Flickr


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Jawa, I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but glad to hear that something I said was helpful. If 1/3 of your ceiling came out nice, then the other 2/3's should have as well. Unless. From all that you've written, I'm suspecting that you're crushing the roller nap, and the 2/3's is the result of a worthless nap. Did you read that part in my articles, how to break a roller cover in? 

In the first ten minutes or so of use, the cover shouldn't be pushed past a few sqaure feet, then dipped again, then a few sqaure feet. During this time the paint is working toward the core of the cover, filling the reservoir. If the roller isn't sufficiently filled and you stretch it too far, ie, attempt to cover normal per dip square footage, the nap will crush and the cover will be worthless. With a crushed nap, there is no resevoir effect, and you'll only be applying that which you pick up with each dip, when you should be pulling some from the resevoir as well. The resevoir then gets refilled with each dip and the cycle continues.
From what you're descibing, and from what I can see in the pics, this sounds to be the case. Might it be?


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

What he said( arrow pointing up)

If it was me I would also ditch the 18 in cover, you don't need it.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> Jawa, I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but glad to hear that something I said was helpful. If 1/3 of your ceiling came out nice, then the other 2/3's should have as well. Unless. From all that you've written, I'm suspecting that you're crushing the roller nap, and the 2/3's is the result of a worthless nap. Did you read that part in my articles, how to break a roller cover in?
> 
> In the first ten minutes or so of use, the cover shouldn't be pushed past a few sqaure feet, then dipped again, then a few sqaure feet. During this time the paint is working toward the core of the cover, filling the reservoir. ?


I think I'm crushing the roller nap, but I'm unsure as to how one goes about keeping a sleeve fluffy deep into a single run. How do extract the paint towards the end. When I say crush, btw, I mean matting it down, not trying to get a verticle press Workout, lol! By the time I'm finished with a 3x6 area (two passes by 6ft) the Purdy Dove sleeves are smooth (all of them). The knit Wooster seems to keep it's nappy texture during these single runs!? I was seriously contemplating ditching what I consider the best feeling sleeve (woven DOVE) and going with the lesser Wooster. Like I said before, the 1/2" Wooster worked well during the HB primer application. I was tempted to just leave it alone, it was beautiful, lol!

Also, the part of the ceiling that looks great, I used a 3/8" Purdy Dove. I also roughed it up mid-way, because I began to notice the ultra smooth effect it was creating, besides grabbing less paint. It worked for a while... GRRRR!

Lastly, I've conditioned all my rollers since day one. Wetting them, lightly washing any excess lint of them, spinning them and then using them immediately. It's a 10min process.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jawadesign said:


> I think I'm crushing the roller nap, but I'm unsure as to how one goes about keeping a sleeve fluffy deep into a single run. How do extract the paint towards the end. When I say crush, btw, I mean matting it down, not trying to get a verticle press Workout, lol! By the time I'm finished with a 3x6 area (two passes by 6ft) the Purdy Dove sleeves are smooth (all of them). The knit Wooster seems to keep it's nappy texture during these single runs!? I was seriously contemplating ditching what I consider the best feeling sleeve (woven DOVE) and going with the lesser Wooster. Like I said before, the 1/2" Wooster worked well during the HB primer application. I was tempted to just leave it alone, it was beautiful, lol!
> 
> Also, the part of the ceiling that looks great, I used a 3/8" Purdy Dove. I also roughed it up mid-way, because I began to notice the ultra smooth effect it was creating, besides grabbing less paint. It worked for a while... GRRRR!
> 
> Lastly, I've conditioned all my rollers since day one. Wetting them, lightly washing any excess lint of them, spinning them and then using them immediately. It's a 10min process.


 
cut this in half and you will be fine, keep paint on the cover


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Where are you anyway? I would be tempted to come over there and see what is going on.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

Jawa, you have that right, matting the cover. I've never liked the Purdy covers. The woosters are best. You can crush the roller in three ways, pushing it too far too soon, as I explained, running it too dry and spreading the paint too far, and pressing it too hard against the ceiling. 
I already covered breaking the roller in.
When rolling an eight foot wall, you should get about 1 1/2 to 2 full roller widths out of a dip, that's about 12-16 square foot per dip, that's after break in. Apply that to the ceiling. Never go beyond 16 and stay closer to 12-14 if you struggle with a wet edge. On a 12 foot wide ceiling, I'll take two roller widths on half the ceiling width, that's 9 square feet. You have to get a feel for how it's rolling to determine how far you can go. All paints will spread differently and coverage will also be influenced by what you're coating over. Also, listen. A dry roller makes a very different sound than a properly loaded one. You hear the suction, like pulling velcro, sort of. You always want to hear suction. Try to pick up a uniform amount each dip and spread it over a uniform square area in a uniform manner. This isn't HGTV, where they roll hodgepodge every which way. 
Your roller should also just glide across the surface, using just enough pressure to keep it on the surface, never press. 
As to paints, I prefer to use the basic chalk based, non vinyl finishes. These will be your deader flats. Vinyls will have a slight angular sheen, which can cause you headaches on ceilings and long or high walls. Chalk based are more idiot proof, lol. Ceilings don't need high performance products, as they just sit there and look pretty. With SW, I would be buying a flat from the Promar line, 200 or 400. With BM, I use Super Spec. Occasionally, I will use BM waterborne ceiling finish, which they claim is dead flat and I haven't seen to be otherwise yet. Even BM's Muresco ceiling white has a slight angular sheen, which in my mind, based on years of experience, is a new development with that product and it's gone off my go to list. Brilliance is a flat ceiling paint, but it's a vinyl acrylic. Bottom line with ceilings, all I care about is that it reflect as close to zero light I as can get, and I care less about quality and price.


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

chrisn said:


> cut this in half and you will be fine, keep paint on the cover


chrisn... i would take you up on the offer if you were closer to Chicago :thumbsup:


and i should be able to get two passes or (3x6) area out of a well loaded 18" roller. i think my problem may be stretching and over working it beyond that area. i'll do a 3x6 area (wet) then go beyond and overlap into dry areas. it worked on the better part of my ceiling, but i was not consistent enough throughout the job. i need to remain confident, roll my areas wet and hope it all comes out. i was moving right along and quickly in the better part of my ceiling. 

also, the problem area of the ceiling has a large window close to the ceiling. cascading light across the entire width of the room, you see EVERYTHING!!


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## jawadesign (Dec 13, 2011)

jsheridan said:


> All paints will spread differently and coverage will also be influenced by what you're coating over. Also, listen. A dry roller makes a very different sound than a properly loaded one. You hear the suction, like pulling velcro, sort of. You always want to hear suction. Try to pick up a uniform amount each dip and spread it over a uniform square area in a uniform manner. This isn't HGTV, where they roll hodgepodge every which way.
> Your roller should also just glide across the surface, using just enough pressure to keep it on the surface, never press.


 
:thumbup: it worked!!

so, with confidence, i told myself i will take ownership of this room. 

1. shut windows, only leave them cracked. reducing drying time.
2. turn off radio, lol! i can hear the paint being applied.
3. roll perpendicular to the windows letting in the most light. 
4. and i can't emphasis this enough, STAY CONSISTENT with every ACTION (creates uniform texture!)

this time around, i painted the room long, 3x25 in 5 sections. then rolled the next run behind the first in the same manner. it's the way room and windows are oriented... i took a gamble IMHO. i wasn't sure rolling into the first section was going to work starting my second run...!?

i reprimed over the mud using the techniques above and it came out great.
i then applied SW (CHB) paint, flat-white, a shade darker than Brilliance. this actually helped some, allowing for a variation between the whites. overall it came out nice and i can live with it. i say this because with all the layers, different textures, different paints and different directions rolled, i was really doubtful it would ever come out nice at all. short of going with a popcorn ceiling...:whistling2:

i hate to say this, but i can now see why BEHR, GLIDDEN and VALSPAR are so loved by DIY'ers. the paint is very, and i mean very forgiving. what you PROS call saggy and runny or what i call the melted look is what helps the DIY'er. Sherwin Williams paint creates a uniform stipple when applied perfectly, but if you slip or sing along with the radio, lol, you will bring out the mistakes! i don't recommend SW for the DIY'er, yep... leave that stuff to the PROS and you will love your rooms!


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