# Possible water damage



## 1910NE (Sep 5, 2010)

Looks like the water is backed up in the gutters. It also looks like there is no seal (or it has failed) between the gutters and the side of the house. Check the gutters, and get a gutter contractor to fix that seal.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

If you can do it safely how about a picture roofline where it meets the gutter and a shot of the roof above it.


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)




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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

bubbler, I am going to buy an extension ladder and drip edges


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## bubbler (Oct 18, 2010)

Good luck, if you go w/ the extension ladder consider buying two levelers for the feet if the ground is uneven (or unpaved) and the "arms" that let you rest the top of the ladder against the siding below the gutter instead of on the gutter itself.

Personally I'm able to reach all gutters areas of my Cape roof using an 8' A-frame, so that is what I use to clean the gutters... I feel safer w/ the A-frame for whatever reason.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

After I install drip edges, I suppose I should test them with a garden hose?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

No need to test a drip edge. By design it works if installed properly.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, this is going to be more difficult than I expected. I bought a ladder today, and took photos of the roof.

The problem is not lack of drip edge. The concrete tiles hang over the gutter adequately.

Somehow, water is leaking a couple feet inward from the gutter. I am guessing the waterproofing is somehow damaged under the concrete tiles.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

Photos follow......










Below is a the photo again of the leakage during a rain shower. Notice that the leak is a couple feet inward from the gutter.......










Below is a photo of the gutter.....










Below is the view from ground level. The red arrows show where water leaks during a rain shower.....










Below is possible sloppy waterproofing. Note the visible black waterproofing......










Any advice, guys?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

A common problem here with concrete tiles leaking near the eaves is that UV light damages the under felt there making it very brittle. Concrete tiles tend to allow some water through which runs down the felt into the gutter. When the felt is damaged it leaks at this point. 
The usual cure is replace a few feet of the defective felt and replace with a different type not affected by the sunlight.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*All I can say is that by looking at your last picture where the rake tiles end and then go into a poorly fitting 3 sided ridge, the broken ridge tile and the badly mitered tile and the last ridge where you can see daylight through it really makes me wonder about your roof. What does it look like under the valley? It's a closed valley so hard to see. I don't know where you live and the codes where you are but is your tile nailed to the deck or on battens? Is it a mud-on application? Where I'm from in South Florida we have very strict protocols to follow since Hurricane Andrew dessimated a whole lot of roofs and buildings down here. Most tile roofs are installed with Poly-Foam and have a 90#, modified or now-a-days TU-Plus or other tile underlayment that has a granulated surface under the tile. *

*Water could be intruding from the valley, the ridge area in the last picture and flowing to the lowest point. I really don't like that last ridge (if it should even be a ridge tile) where you can see through it. One good gust of wind and that tile is going to pop up and then you could have a domino effect of the rest popping off if not secured properly. There should at least be a nailer there to securely nail to or now we have to use a ridge metal so the crown of the tile will have contact with either polyfoam or mud or a nail on the top besides the point up areas on the sides. *

*Unless you think you can tackle taking up a few rows of tiles to see what's happening under there, you might want to call on a professional roofer. It's difficult to tell your roof line with the close up pictures. Does the roof go from a 4/12 to a low pitched area? Is that why it goes from a gable to a ridge? I think the water is getting under the tile from some area and then getting behind the gutter and then wetting the concrete.*

*Those are my thoughts. Sorry I don't have a solution but first we have to pinpoint the problem and based on that last picture, I believe you could have other problem areas that need to be investigated in order to get to the root of the issue.*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks horseygirl. My guess is that water is leaking through the valley as seen in the photo under the chimney. I am guessing the homebuilders did a real lousy roofing job.

I don't know how the tiles are secured, but they feel cemented down.

Is there any way I can seal the valley without removing the tiles to see if that stops the leakage?


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Perhaps I can put a garden hose right into the valley to see if that causes the same leak in the photo?

If the valley is the source of the leak, can I just make the valley waterproof without removing the tiles by caulking it?


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

:no:* No, you do not want to seal your valley. First off, that would not solve the problem, only putting on a band-aid and a bad one at that secondly, a valley should help to shed and divert water off the roof just like your gutter collects the water and allows it to disperse to the ground via the downspout and elbows. If anything, you would want to open the valley to allow it to do it's job and allow water to flow.*

*It could be the flashing under the valley is not properly sealed along the edges, has been compromised by a hole or tear in the metal or paper. Maybe it's not even in the valley but rather the flashing around the chimney as you mentioned. The ridge tile if any are broken and standing in mid air as the one in the last picture allowing the water to be driven behind the tile rather than over it could be an area to investigate. But, if a mud on application, why not do a proper point-up of the tidge tiles if mud is on the roof? Another thought could be the gutter itself and how it's attached to the fascia....is it secure? I don't see hangers, spike and ferrules, etc. Why are there driplets of water on the underside making it look like the water is coming from behind.*

*You can do the hose thing to try and emulate the force and the amount of water produced by a wind driven rain or, maybe it happens with the slightest bit of rain. *


*Just remember.....*

*your tiles are decorative and not the substance of a roof. They are there to protect the membrane. *
*Flashings are the most vulnerable part of the roof and, if not properly sealed can allow for water intrusion.*
*Water travels in funny ways*
*removing and replacing tiles can be tricky. Especially in the field area.*
*walking on roofs can be dangerous and best left to someone experienced.*
*I hope you find some of these ideas helpful in finding out where that darn water is coming from.*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I just took more photos. It appears that the valley flashing is either damaged or non-existent.

Photo of house. The orange area represents the area that gets soaked during rain:









View from ground. The orange area represents the area that gets soaked during rain. the red arrows point to paint discoloration from rain soaking:









Another view from ground. Notice that the area being soaked is a couple feet behind the gutter, which is why I doubt the problem is lack of drip edge:









Photo of valley. Yellow arrow points to something sticking up from valley, possibly damaged flashing:









Another photo of valley. Notice that there is no flashing hanging over gutter:









Another view of valley:









Top view of valley. Hard to tell if there is flashing or not:









Photo of gutter. There is no drip edge:









Top view of gutter:









Any advice?


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*Hey Mike!*

*Well, it sure seems like you're getting your monies worth out of your new ladder!! Thanks for posting the new pictures which shows things in a new perspective.*

*I'm really leaning towards the valley being the issue here. There is a lot of debris which is prohibiting the flow of water to channel into the gutter. Also looking into the gutter you can see some residue of cement that has flowed with the water at some point. You might also want to check that there are no clogs in the gutter, drop tube, downspout, elbows, etc. Doesn't seem like you've had a lot of rain or if you have, I don't think those spider webs would be there. They would have washed away with the flow of water. *

*So, I am of the opinion that your problem is somewhere within the valley and it's clogged with construction debris, debris from cutting tiles, plastering of the chimney, could be the lip on the sides of the valley metal is compressed and water is flowing onto the roof under the tiles instead of the channel acting as a diverter for the water to flow down the valley and into the gutter. You also need to go one step further and check the area where the water has been saturating your cement and check the condition of your sheathing and membrane. You mentioned that it's been getting wet for a period of time. *

*Is this a new construction house? Is your roof under warranty? If so, get those guys out there and point out your broken ridge tile and that last tile that you can see daylight through..that is not quality workmanship. I don't see how an Inspector would allow that..(unless they inspect from their car) Also, dealing with the valley and removing 3 or 4 tiles from either side and cleaning the valley and reinstalling the tiles might best be left for someone with experience (no offense meant!!) At least you have knowledge and know what to be aware of. While they're up there wouldn't hurt to check the area around the chimney and any other suspicious areas you've noticed with your new ladder!! :wink:*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Horsey, I agree with you. Look closely at the red arrows below. They point to discolored paint that was most likely a river of water during rain showers. The river is directly under the valley.....









The house is 10 years old. If the warranty is expired, can I sue the builders to pay for a new valley?

Luckily for me, I live near Fresno, so we rarely get rain. Maybe that's why the roof builders were so lazy.

I am surprised that no one ever invented a waterproof liner that goes OVER existing tiles to prevent leaks for cheapskates like me.

Any idea how much a roofer would charge to fix my roof?


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

mike932 said:


> Horsey, I agree with you. Look closely at the red arrows below. They point to discolored paint that was most likely a river of water during rain showers. The river is directly under the valley.....
> 
> 
> The house is 10 years old. If the warranty is expired, can I sue the builders to pay for a new valley?
> ...



*I would look over your homeowner documents especially if you are the first owner of the house. Warranties can vary but should be longer than 10 years. Of course the tile manufacturers warranty will be longer but your issue is not with the failure of tile but the roof underneath. Either call the builder or like I said, see if you have a copy of the contract from the roofing company. If you aren't the original owner, sometimes the warranties are not transferrable. If an improper roof was installed and you want to seek legal recourse you're probably going to have to hire an inspector, trusted Roofing Contractor or Roof Consultant to do a survey of the roof. You might also look for the permit for additional information. In my area there are four inspections that are done with a tile roof...a tin cap inspection for dry-in, a mop-in and then an in progress as tile is being installed and then the final...not sure about your area. *

_"I am surprised that no one ever invented a waterproof liner that goes OVER existing tiles to prevent leaks for cheapskates like me."_


:laughing::laughing: *I find your statement above very cute and funny and the answer is.......they do...they're called tarps...pretty blue ones in fact!! At one time all you could see after we had a series of hurricanes down here four or so years ago was a gazillion roofs covered in blue and the odd green ones here and there. Unfortunately, they weren't very attractive with the bags of sand holding them down and having to be readjusted after winds and/or rain!! Come to think of it...there are still some up there believe it or not.*

*Take care.*

*I just wanted to add that don't let anyone talk you into sealing your roof tile...that is a no-no..there are water channels on the left side of every tile which need to be left open.*

*Also, you mention you hardly get any rain. Are the stained areas wet or even damp or are they "just" stains. If wet or still damp, you really need to have someone look at it and get it repaired. Something could really be festering under there. Don't be a "cheapstake" when it comes to having a roof over your families head and protecting your personal belongings!!*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I found the leak. There is a cracked tile. As soon I sprayed water into the crack, water leaked down to the same area as always. Note the triangle-shaped crack.....










Also, the water made the flashing visible. There is a metal W-flashing in the valley.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*Congratulations!! Good detective work!! :detective:*

*So you now know the source of the intrusion but have to figure out why the valley is not doing its' job diverting to the gutter. Could be the valleys end is crushed allowing the water to flow over or under creating your "river" of wet. Or the flashing on the valley could have delaminated creating a void and allowing the water to seep into the other area. It's not unusual for water to get under the tile but that's why the membrane is there. Should also be some weep holes along the eaveline for drainage too. *


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

The roof should be weathertight, even with all the tiles removed. You will need to remove a few to see what the problem is.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Horsey, I am going to temporarily duct tape the cracked tile to see if that stops the leak.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> The roof should be weathertight, even with all the tiles removed. You will need to remove a few to see what the problem is.


So what you're saying is that even with the cracked tile, all water should make it to the gutter, right?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mike932 said:


> So what you're saying is that even with the cracked tile, all water should make it to the gutter, right?


It should do if the roof has been done properly. 
I've been doing a slate roof on my extension which has not leaked since I put the breather membrane and battens on, even without the slates. You should have something similar on your roof.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

mike932 said:


> Horsey, I am going to temporarily duct tape the cracked tile to see if that stops the leak.


:no::no::no:* No, that is not the solution to your problem. Your problem is under the tile. That may or may not stop the water from going behind the tile. You don't need a duct tape band-aid. You need to find out why the water is penetrating through the membrane causing your "river". Is it the valley metal? Is it the paper under the tile? You're going to have to take up tiles and get to the root of the problem. Besides if that "river" has been there you should want to see what the condition is under the tile and why the water is backing up and the damage it may have caused, like do you have rotten wood, is mildew forming? *

*Like I said before, your tile is decorative and not the means to keep your roof watertight. Even though you have that hole, doesn't mean you should have the issue you're having. What Stuart has said is true. I have clients who are waiting for their tile to come in and be loaded..sometimes for 30 days or so. Their roof is usually a modified or 90#. That is "thee roof" and should be watertight. If it does leak, usually everyone is "happy" that a problem was found before the tile was installed rather than after. Punctures can happen during installation too. Maybe that's what happened.*

*Bottom line, something is wrong under your tile and duct tape, which probably won't even stick for that long to the tile is not going to prevent another "river" from flowing. The fact that you found the source of entry helps to determine where you need to look for the actual problem.*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks Horsey. What's the minimum a roofer would charge to fix this?


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Sorry to jump into this conversation, but, man, that valley is a disaster in my opinion...........tiles butted together with large gaps between them is just asking for trouble. It's almost as if they are relying on the underlayment as a rain shield rather than the roof tiles. Shameless construction.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

mike932 said:


> Thanks Horsey. What's the minimum a roofer would charge to fix this?


*Hard to say not knowing the scope of work that needs to be done other than removing tiles, finding the source of the leak, repairing and then replacing tiles. Don't forget to show the broken ridge tile and the one that is floating in mid air and any other funky areas observed.*

*Did you check to see if the roof is still under warranty? Hopefully the company that did this will have to make good on it. If not, then you'll have to call some Contractors and get a price.:yes:*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

The only part of the warranty that is still active is the structural warranty, which covers damage that could lead to the house collapsing.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I found another broken tile and removed it. There is exposed plywood and some felt. I now think it is the cause of the leak, because the felt is so weathered. I think the reason there was a leak when I sprayed water in the valley is that the hose created much more pressure than rainfall.


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Doesn't look like there is much lap on the felt. How are the tiles fixed? ie the nibs hooked over battens?


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

* Mike, being "mad" at the builder and/or roofing contractor is an understatement :furious: . *

*I really think you have got to get a professional out there. I'm sure the rest of the roof is in the same condition or going to be at some point if not corrected. That is a lifeless, mutilated organic felt laid loose on the deck with less than minimum overlap. Apparently, tiles were not mudded down, don't see any battens or nails maybe "duct tape" at the head lap. IMO this is beyond a DIY project. I would contact the builder, municipal building inspector, roofing contractor, roof consultant and perhaps an attorney. That is unacceptable. I don't know what other advice to offer other than you've got to fight for your rights. It's things like this that give the industry a bad rep. *


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*Another thought I just had was about all your broken tile. Have you had tradesmen on the roof? Hail storms, etc.? I know sometimes 2nd quality tiles can be sold (although usually for color issues). Perhaps yours had a low PSI...like too much sand in the mix? If you look underneath the tile the manufacturers name should be embossed into it. Perhaps a call to the manufacturer or sales rep. couldn't hurt either.*


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Doesn't look like there is much lap on the felt. How are the tiles fixed? ie the nibs hooked over battens?


I did not see any battans. I am in the process of hiring a roofer now.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*You and your roof are in my thoughts...please keep us posted.*

*Thanks. *


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I am actually considering installing a new roof by myself. I am now thinking about asphalt tiles because they look the easiest to install. Maybe I can get away with using asphalt tiles that are the same color as the concrete tiles.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Horseygirl said:


> * Mike, being "mad" at the builder and/or roofing contractor is an understatement :furious: . *
> 
> *I really think you have got to get a professional out there. I'm sure the rest of the roof is in the same condition or going to be at some point if not corrected. That is a lifeless, mutilated organic felt laid loose on the deck with less than minimum overlap. Apparently, tiles were not mudded down, don't see any battens or nails maybe "duct tape" at the head lap. IMO this is beyond a DIY project. I would contact the builder, municipal building inspector, roofing contractor, roof consultant and perhaps an attorney. That is unacceptable. I don't know what other advice to offer other than you've got to fight for your rights. It's things like this that give the industry a bad rep. *


+1 

I would recommend that you have a pro look at the project. Concrete tiles are not your average DIY'er project.


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mike932 said:


> I am actually considering installing a new roof by myself. I am now thinking about asphalt tiles because they look the easiest to install. Maybe I can get away with using asphalt tiles that are the same color as the concrete tiles.


Have you considered taking off the tiles, counter batten the boards, breather membrane and batten and then relay the tiles?
I don't know a lot about shingle roofs as they are rare here, but I have seen a couple that were looking a bit rough after only about 20 years. Could have been cheap shingles or bad workmanship though. 
Concrete tiles should last much longer. There are many tiled roofs from the 30's still in good nick.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Horsey, I will take your advice


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Have you considered taking off the tiles, counter batten the boards, breather membrane and batten and then relay the tiles?


I am going to have the roof professionally inspected.


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

mike932 said:


> I am going to have the roof professionally inspected.


 :thumbsup:* You've made the right decision. Are you using a Roofing Contractor or more of an inspector type person?*

*Like I said before, please post and let us know what their findings are. *


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I am contacting a construction lawyer


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I am considering fake slate tiles to replace my concrete tiles. Consumer Reports recommends Ecostar Majestic or CertainTeed Symphony. Here are their websites....

http://www.ecostar.carlisle.com/majestic.html

http://www.certainteed.com/products/roofing/residential/309040#

And Dupont Roofliner instead of felt....
http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Weatherization/en_US/products/residential/resi_roofliner.html


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## Horseygirl (Sep 25, 2011)

*Hey Mike,*

*Just wondering how things are going with you and your roof? Have you had the roof inspected or contacted the construction attorney? Any news? Any updates would be appreciated.:yes:*

*Thanks,*

*"Horsey"*


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## crackdaddy (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm doing exactly that right now.

Removing Duntex Concrete Tiles, and the existing underlayment, replacing any bad or weak wood, renailing to new codes and laying down some polyglass tu plus underlayment and then reinstalling the tiles with poly foam spray. Its going to be much better than originally done. The original roofer stretched the tiles out to the point that each right hand corner of the tile had a 1/8" triangle shaped hole IN EVERY TILE. I found some old stock off of another tear off and bought 120 more tiles, enough to add an extra row to each side. I also found a roofer that has some experience in using tile to assist me. This is not something I would recommend to the avg DIYER. If your really committed to do this project, then higher a tile guy to act as a consultant and don't do anything without him advising you or demonstrating to you how it should be installed. 
If what you pulled up is indicative of the condition of the rest of your roof, I would advise you to do do the same as I did. If you can salvage and reuse all your tile, the job material wise should be about $1400 for the underlayment and foam spray for 25 sqs. Higher a roofer consultant for $500 and get a buddy or two to help you. You have a nice tile roof, the problem with going to the cheaper materials, like asphalt shingles, you are losing value, despite having a new roof. Do it right, go to an open valley, use a quality underlayment, and hire a roofer as a consultant. Do not cover the tile, the tile is just decoration, its the underlayment that is the real roof.

BTW I had my concrete tile valley replaced about 3 years ago, it cost me $300 and the guy was done in 2 hours. Its not rocket science, but does require that you know what your doing.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

Hi guys. I have decided to fix the roof myself. Sure I could sue the builder, but even if I would win, I would have to pay a large lawyer fee, and there is no guarantee that the new roofer who repairs my roof will do a good job. If you want something done right, you have to DIY. I am sure the cost of DIY will be cheaper than a lawyer fee.

The tiles are easy to remove because they are not nailed down. They are just resting on battens. I plan to remove all valley tiles, plus any tiles that have deteriorated felt under them. I will remove battens and replace the old felt with Grace Triflex underlayment using cap nails. Then I will replace the battens and put the old concrete tiles back on. I will also place Grace Triflex underlayment under the valley metal flashing.

If I happen to do a lousy job, I can always hire a roofer later to correct my work.

Is there any way to replace underlayment without removing the battens?

Here is my roof in 2003 when the house was being built.......


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Good luck with the job.I don't know any way of replacing the felt without taking off the battens. 
You must use a different way of felt and batten to us. Here we would counter batten the boards so the felt is loose and allows water to run under the battens to the eaves. Your's looks like there is a gap in the battens to let it through.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Unfortunately they are not available on line, but the standard references for tile roof installation are produced by the Tile Roofing Institute.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I started my mission today. Removed tiles from the valley and the leaky area. Found the leak. Water seeps between 2 sheets of OSB board near the gutter. Felt is rotted in the leaky area. I plan to seal the leaky area with ice and water shield.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

What do you guys think of this idea?.... I am going to replace the rotted felt with ice and water shield, and I will replace the rotted battens with new battens. I am trying to figure out how to remember where the rotten battens were (before I remove them). I could measure the location of the battens before I remove them, but I think I have a better idea. I am going to nail cap nails adjacent to the rotted battens before I remove them. This will mark their location. I will remove the rotted battens and felt, and then put ice and water shield on. Then I will use my finger to feel where I put the cap nails. This will tell me exactly where to place the new battens. Is this a good idea, or is there a better solution?


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## stuart45 (Jun 20, 2009)

you can also make a batten gauge from a piece of batten that will fit in between the battens at the correct measurement.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I think the tiles in the valley are channeling water from the valley to the felt on the sides of the valley. This would had been avoided had the builders chosen to build an open valley instead of a closed valley. I am thinking about placing lego pieces under the valley tiles to elevate the tiles enough to allow water to flow under them.


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

By the way, there is no drip edge on my roof. Is this common with concrete tile roofs?


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

I finished the roof. Put a layer of ice and water shield over the leak. I also installed a drip edge. My only mistake was not keep track of which tiles were which. I put them back together slightly out of alignment.


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Check the flashing on the chimney!
Probably, should be some type of drip edge.

rossfingal


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## mike932 (May 12, 2011)

chimney has flashing.


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