# Shower leaking need to re tile



## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Replacing the tile is not going to fix your problem. You need to gut it and install a shower pan and liner and then reinstall new tile. I assume you know this already and are working in that direction.

Trying to match the existing tile is probably not going to happen, especially since it was discontinued. Tiles has batch numbers and the tile can even vary enough batch to batch to not match.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Replacing the tile is not going to fix your problem. You need to gut it and install a shower pan and liner and then reinstall new tile. I assume you know this already and are working in that direction.
> 
> Trying to match the existing tile is probably not going to happen, especially since it was discontinued. Tiles has batch numbers and the tile can even vary enough batch to batch to not match.


 
Thanks for the input let me ask.... I started removing the grout today along the outer edge inside the shower. Once i was actually that close, now i see the grout is all cracked up. The plywood beneath the shower is fine. ONly moldy outside the shower.....

What started this I jacked my house up about 4 months ago. THe grout just cracked in the corners and some sides ( I think this is what caused it... has not leaked previous 7 years) I am wondering if i can just get away with replacing tile/plywood outside of the shower and just re grouting the whole shower? What do you think?


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

A shower should never rely upon the grout or tile to mitigate the spread of moisture. That's the job of a membrane and shower pan. Moisture will travel right through the grout and continue to do damage.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> A shower should never rely upon the grout or tile to mitigate the spread of moisture. That's the job of a membrane and shower pan. Moisture will travel right through the grout and continue to do damage.


Gotcha... I knew that air hammer i bought 5 years ago would come in handy 

I will do that, now why would it all the sudden give? Normal?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

look bad? 

I think will also tear a foot or so up....


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## Nia (Jul 18, 2008)

I would definitely install a shower pan liner to protect against moisture and mildew. As far as the tile goes, you can buy some mosaic tile for the bottom to compliment what your have if you don't want to change all the tiles.


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

It was probably never done right from the beginning. It sometimes will hold up for a few years, all the while the plywood, studs, and insulation were getting damp. After several years of this it just disintegrates. You are sure to find some surprises after you open things up.

Don't just do the floor, the walls need to have a membrane on them as well. In fact, some of the moisture might be coming from the walls as well. The only real expense is going to be your labor as the materials will be fairly inexpensive for that small shower.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Nia said:


> I would definitely install a shower pan liner to protect against moisture and mildew. As far as the tile goes, you can buy some mosaic tile for the bottom to compliment what your have if you don't want to change all the tiles.


 
liner doing.... for sure

well the floor in shower i am fine with changing... but it's the floor right outside the shower that i am worred about.... the wood beneath has to come out.... all the walls are different tile which i cannot find.

will take another picture maybe get some tile suggestions


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> It was probably never done right from the beginning. It sometimes will hold up for a few years, all the while the plywood, studs, and insulation were getting damp. After several years of this it just disintegrates. You are sure to find some surprises after you open things up.
> 
> Don't just do the floor, the walls need to have a membrane on them as well. In fact, some of the moisture might be coming from the walls as well. The only real expense is going to be your labor as the materials will be fairly inexpensive for that small shower.


 
Agreed with not doing right....i pulled cover off temp guage and the gfi is right next to all the water lines....... water runs/drips down the electrical wires :thumbup:

9' ceilings how far up? Also to the right of my foot is a seat about 1.5' deep tear it out?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

That shower has been leaking since day-one. Wait till you see what it looks like under the shower floor.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

3 different tiles in bath and all 3 seem to be disco... SEE the 6 -12x12's in front of shower.. that plywood below is rotten... how would you handle that tile? the I found alot of 1/3's of the tile that goes on the floor....but cannot really figure a design to go with bath


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> liner doing.... for sure
> 
> well the floor in shower i am fine with changing... but it's the floor right outside the shower that i am worred about.... the wood beneath has to come out.... all the walls are different tile which i cannot find.
> 
> will take another picture maybe get some tile suggestions





Bud Cline said:


> That shower has been leaking since day-one. Wait till you see what it looks like under the shower floor.


bet your right....joy!


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## Nia (Jul 18, 2008)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> liner doing.... for sure
> 
> well the floor in shower i am fine with changing... but it's the floor right outside the shower that i am worred about.... the wood beneath has to come out.... all the walls are different tile which i cannot find.


I think you should take up the floor, tear out the shower and start over. That way you know it's done right versus trying to patch here and there. Remove the floor, install new plywood where needed, add hardibacker and then install your floor. I would also use hardibacker in the shower area too.

Like OP already mentioned the materials are not expensive and its worth your time to correct the problems now and you won't have to worry about tearing something up again because your still having leaks. You'll also have an updated look for your bathroom with matching tiles.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

well just started on the shower floor. There is about 3/4" white mortar... then about 1.5" brown cement type material then THERE IS A LINER....

Seems to be done right.....what do you think?


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Again, the leak could be up much higher and running down the walls behind the shower pan. There could also be a small perforation in the liner. My guess is that all you have is a pan and no liner on the walls.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Again, the leak could be up much higher and running down the walls behind the shower pan. There could also be a small perforation in the liner. My guess is that all you have is a pan and no liner on the walls.


Only gets worse.... the liner is only 4" up... how far should i go when i re-do

several 2x4's were water logged, and there is a boat load of mold... especially under the tile in seat it was gooey white mixed with mold almost like sheetrock mud. 

Any good articles on building up my shower floor? Why 2 different mortars?

Thanks


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

The new liner should rise a minimum of three inches above the top of the dam.

The "gooey" could be mastic tile-adhesive which shouldn't be there at all.

We can furnish you with a good diagram of how it should bone. First get all the old out so things can begin to dry and you can do a further inspection.

I would also suggest you douse the entire structure that has been wet and moldy with a product called Microban.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> The new liner should rise a minimum of three inches above the top of the dam.
> 
> The "gooey" could be mastic tile-adhesive which shouldn't be there at all.
> 
> ...


So the liner was done properly the first time?see pic? After tearing the whole seat down. There was TWO layers of tile on the top. Wonder if previous owner tried to bandaid a leak....The seat had the most mold on it. 

Will continue to tear down and break away 1' up the wall update with pictures and get suggestions... Thanks

This is a first time for me ..


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> So the liner was done properly the first time?


As far as the height requirement, maybe. But, how were the corners done? Where were all the nails placed? How was the liner clamped to the floor drain?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> As far as the height requirement, maybe. But, how were the corners done? Where were all the nails placed? How was the liner clamped to the floor drain?


:thumbsup: will take notes when removing floor... thanks again


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Do you understand that water transfers through grout and cement board? Do you know that if you don't have a membrane on the walls that moisture will get to them. The liner protects the floor and the membrane protects the walls. Does that make sense?


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## cochise7969 (Jul 21, 2009)

Don't you hate how when you expect a repair to be a small project then it transforms into a larger project, it never fails.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Do you understand that water transfers through grout and cement board? Do you know that if you don't have a membrane on the walls that moisture will get to them. The liner protects the floor and the membrane protects the walls. Does that make sense?


yea understanding now! I work in an office bare with me


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Do you understand that water transfers through grout and cement board? Do you know that if you don't have a membrane on the walls that moisture will get to them. The liner protects the floor and the membrane protects the walls. Does that make sense?


 
Would you suggest a tile redi pan or liner?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Do you understand that water transfers through grout and cement board? Do you know that if you don't have a membrane on the walls that moisture will get to them. The liner protects the floor and the membrane protects the walls. Does that make sense?





cochise7969 said:


> Don't you hate how when you expect a repair to be a small project then it transforms into a larger project, it never fails.


 
Yep, bought this house last year. Got a really good deal since it was a foreclosure. 2nd major problem in 1 year!


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

I think you really need to do some research. I would recommend looking up the kerdi ditra website and reading about the products they offer.

The membrane can have no penetrations and the reason for the cement board is that it doesn't mold and offers a solid tile substrate.

You might need a professional because there's a bit of a learning curve.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> I think you really need to do some research. I would recommend looking up the kerdi ditra website and reading about the products they offer.
> 
> The membrane can have no penetrations and the reason for the cement board is that it doesn't mold and offers a solid tile substrate.
> 
> You might need a professional because there's a bit of a learning curve.


Looking at site now thanks......Thanks for the info... 
i would love to hire a professional....... just got jet skis 3 weeks ago and blew money fixing them up.......Don't have enough.....I was told this would be a 4K plus to hire someone. 
I seen your site, nice work... what would you say a ball park figure is for this project if I hired someone?

Hopefully can take it slow and do it right.....or should i suck it up and put on credit card


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Can't tell from your picture, but here in Chicago when tracking down the causes of shower leakage it's not unusual to discover that liners have been installed directly on the subflooring without the required mortar pre-slope.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Michael Thomas said:


> Can't tell from your picture, but here in Chicago when tracking down the causes of shower leakage it's not unusual to discover that liners have been installed directly on the subflooring without the required mortar pre-slope.


You know this is the same-- wood then liner


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Return one of the jet skis!






















OK OK OK, sorry 'bout that. It was just an idea. They can't all be good ones ya know!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Return one of the jet skis!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear ya, Figure someone would let me have it :laughing: that's the family fun........


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Horse shoes are cheaper, how about Scrabble?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Horse shoes are cheaper, how about Scrabble?


Got a really good deal on them :thumbup:


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## jaros bros. (Jan 16, 2009)

Depends on the area that you live in and what you end up picking for tile. Will there be a new door? You're going to need to do some plumbing. Install new fixtures. Which kind and brand? Probably going to need to rip out some insulation? Figure in painting the whole bathroom with a new coat of paint. Lots to consider before ball parking a figure without visiting the jobsite. If you can't save for the job, credit isn't a bad idea. If you can pay it off within a reasonable amount of time and the extra load won't hurt you.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jaros bros. said:


> Depends on the area that you live in and what you end up picking for tile. Will there be a new door? You're going to need to do some plumbing. Install new fixtures. Which kind and brand? Probably going to need to rip out some insulation? Figure in painting the whole bathroom with a new coat of paint. Lots to consider before ball parking a figure without visiting the jobsite. If you can't save for the job, credit isn't a bad idea. If you can pay it off within a reasonable amount of time and the extra load won't hurt you.


I hear ya... plumbing  I have the body sprayer junk in there.... Well my plan is to sell my "in case **** happens items"


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Ineedhelp2009,

Check your in box (upper right corner of this screen) for a PM.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Michael Thomas said:


> Ineedhelp2009,
> 
> Check your in box (upper right corner of this screen) for a PM.


 
8014373200181 is the upc number on the back of the tile I am in need of if anyone knows where to puchase. Originally from HD.

plus updated pictures will post as I go, from what i gather shower only leaking around door area.. see rotten wood. The other sides have been dry as can be behind the cement board. I have peeled some parts of liner and wood is dry underneath. Will post more pictures as I remove floor. 

Jaros from What i have seen there is no membrane at all (see picture 3).....just board mortar then tile. 

Look at pic #2 no protection on the small 2x4 that looks like it was used as a spacer.... Tile was directly on top. Water hit that area daily!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Are the nails suppose to be this low? Other then that and the corners by door, i see no problems do you? Is the drain done right?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Are the nails suppose to be this low?


No-way. Had a hunch that would be the problem when I made my post back at #11. I love it when I'm right!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> No-way. Had a hunch that would be the problem when I made my post back at #11. I love it when I'm right!


 
HAHA good eye... i pulled the rest of liner out... everything is good but the door area. the step going in shower was 2x6's sitting side ways... Considering the amount of mold outside the shower from water splash, i was thinking of building wall higher.. maybe 2x8 or 10 what do you think?

Still want to provide that good write up on doing the pan..... HD just sent me a 20% off $600 purchase :thumbup:

Plan on tearing out the seat and doing something different as well any idea's?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> i was thinking of building wall higher.. maybe 2x8 or 10 what do you think?


No real need to do that. Showers using 2x wood for a curb is generally three or four 2 X 4's stacked and waterproofed, this has always been sufficient. This method gives you a nominal 6" on the outside of the shower and a nominal 3" on the inside. Of course your shower curtain must stay inside the curb or your shower door must fit properly.

Here’s the scoop on a conventional-build such as what you have now:
http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html

Here’s the method I would recommend, this is state of the art right now:
http://www.ontariotile.com/kerdi-shower3.html

Roam around Harry's website there's a lot to learn there. Harry is in Canada where the techinques are basically the same as the U.S. and Harry has been generous enough to offer plenty of good information on his website.:thumbup:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> No real need to do that. Showers using 2x wood for a curb is generally three or four 2 X 4's stacked and waterproofed, this has always been sufficient. This method gives you a nominal 6" on the outside of the shower and a nominal 3" on the inside. Of course your shower curtain must stay inside the curb or your shower door must fit properly.
> 
> Here’s the scoop on a conventional-build such as what you have now:
> http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html
> ...


Thanks again! no curtain just door and my wife leaves cracked open :furious: that helped alot of water outside the door i believe


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> door and my wife leaves cracked open


OK "wifey", that'll be enough of that stuff. THAT'S ONE!!!

Keep it up and there'll be no jet ski in your future.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> OK "wifey", that'll be enough of that stuff. THAT'S ONE!!!
> 
> Keep it up and there'll be no jet ski in your future.


I hear ya... again thanks for the advice will use the liner since i am not removing all the tile. Will post more pictures...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

If all you intend to do is band-aide the receptor (area) and not fuss with the existing walls then the KERDI method is a lot easier to do and is actually your best bet. It would save a lot of frustration.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> If all you intend to do is band-aide the receptor (area) and not fuss with the existing walls then the KERDI method is a lot easier to do and is actually your best bet. It would save a lot of frustration.


 
WHat do you mean band aide... should i remove more of the walls? I like the kerdi method but the mortar to connect it scares me! I found a sheet of liner at HD 5x6' That should cover whole shower in one piece. 
I am missing something how is it easier?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

It is easier because you don't have to cast a preslope and then a top slope.

It is easier because you don't have to wrestle the thick liner into the corners.

It is easier because you don't have to find an alternate means of waterproofing the bench.

It is easier because you don't have weep holes to become blocked in the future.

It is easier because you don't have to figure out how to attach the short wallboard without penetrating the liner now that you are abbreviating the wall repairs.

It is easier just because it is easier.




> I like the kerdi method but the mortar to connect it *scares me*!


And who are you? Millions of square feet of KERDI in service in the last decade and little ole YOU is challenging the seaming method??? Let's move on.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> It is easier because you don't have to cast a preslope and then a top slope.
> 
> It is easier because you don't have to wrestle the thick liner into the corners.
> 
> ...


^:wallbash:
Sold! 

How far would you recommend going up the walls? How much more tile should I remove?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

http://www.schluter.com/media/brochures/ShowerHandbook2008.pdf


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I suppose if you aren't going to do the whole thing over, then maybe 16 to 18 inches up from the floor is a somewhat safe bet.

You should probably use a decorative liner at the point on/up the wall where the new tile stops. This will help to disguise the subsurface variation you are going to have.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> I suppose if you aren't going to do the whole thing over, then maybe 16 to 18 inches up from the floor is a somewhat safe bet.
> 
> You should probably use a decorative liner at the point on/up the wall where the new tile stops. This will help to disguise the subsurface variation you are going to have.


Thanks, will return other stuff


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> I suppose if you aren't going to do the whole thing over, then maybe 16 to 18 inches up from the floor is a somewhat safe bet.
> 
> You should probably use a decorative liner at the point on/up the wall where the new tile stops. This will help to disguise the subsurface variation you are going to have.


i did find the wall tile.... outside the floor i was able to tear 15 tiles out and only breaking 2  Just doing a new shower floor.......


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

That link gets me no where. It says the product isn't currently available in the store I am browsing and to try a different location. It doesn't tell me what the product is. I hate HD's website! You do it their way or you don't do it.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> That link gets me no where. It says the product isn't currently available in the store I am browsing and to try a different location. It doesn't tell me what the product is. I hate HD's website! You do it their way or you don't do it.


 
How important is the $120 kerdi drain? I have seen installs with and without....


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Did you buy KERDI Mat or DITRA?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Did you buy KERDI Mat or DITRA?


 

is the kerdi drain....must buy?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Did you buy KERDI Mat or DITRA?


I see kerdi for shower, and ditra for regular floors...


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Did you buy KERDI Mat or DITRA?


 What do you think about the Kerdi shower tray?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Better yet....thinking about the whole ....Kerdi kit.......pan, membrane, and drain... in case i do mess up the mortar slope.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> is the kerdi drain....must buy?


Yes if you intend to use the KERDI shower floor method.



> I see kerdi for shower, and ditra for regular floors...


Correct.




> What do you think about the Kerdi shower tray?


They are fool proof and have a place but not in every application unfortunately.



> Better yet....thinking about the whole ....Kerdi kit.......pan, membrane, and drain... in case i do mess up the mortar slope.


Don't see how you can "mess up" doing the slope yourself but ya never know! If your dimensions fit the kit then go that route.

If your drain egress is centered you'll likely be OK. You can cut the plastic pans down some if you do so equally on all sides. You can also extend the pans a little but again the sides should be equal.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

well my shower is to funny shaped.. I talked to 2 stores today around me that sell this... both said " you can by the 72x72 pan and cut anyway you like" My shower 42"x59" and has the angle on one side... can see in previous pictures... will do some more slope research if it looks like i cannot handle will hire someone to build the slope.
Again thanks for all of the help... i have learned alot from this forum. 

am i missing anything on the new stuff? I know 2 more 2x4's on the door entrance but i need one more 1x4 on left wall before. will just put backer board as close to existing floor/wall backer board that i can ?Safe?
THe ply is 23/32nd.. can i add one more 1/2 piece just so shower is more sturdy? Or will it be too high?
I added 2x4 braces every 16" under the ply floor.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> My shower 42"x59" and *has the angle on one side*... *can see in previous pictures*...


Not finding that picture. Are you talking about the angled wall that divides the tub and shower? With the bench inside the shower how does that angle get to the floor?



> THe ply is 23/32nd.. can i add one more 1/2 piece just so shower is more sturdy?


Sure, shouldn't be a problem.

I think you should also remove wall tile to the same elevation on all walls. Once you go back with new things don't always work out so good. A straight line would be easier to doctor with a listello or deco-liner, etc.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Not finding that picture. Are you talking about the angled wall that divides the tub and shower? With the bench inside the shower how does that angle get to the floor?
> 
> 
> Sure, shouldn't be a problem.
> ...


 
The same angle you see dividing tub and shower is the same angle inside....it's not a regular rectangle....about a 45 degree angle on that one side.... - but if i did a bench i am sure i could have a square for a pan.... but I do not intend to put a bench back, more room without bench..... Just one of those trapezoid shapes off that corner that is small enough to hold shampoo and stuff.... 

I will remove wall tile evenly - good call..... .... luckily HD still carries the wall tile... going to do shower floor with 2 different 6x6 tiles - greenish and cream tiles


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> The same angle you see dividing tub and shower is the same angle inside....it's not a regular rectangle....about a 45 degree angle on that one side....


OK, Got it! Still no reason you can't easily cast your own cement receptor if you use the KERDI system. The KERDI Drain is a must however.



> but I do not intend to put a bench back, more room without bench.....


If you still want a bench take a look at the "Better Bench". Just a corner triangle hung from the wall, it will support 400#'s. The Better Bench won't effect the footprint but requires a square corner. They also offer a small version to be used as a shampoo shelf. There is also a niche offered for a soap dish. (Recess-it)
http://www.innoviscorp.com



> I will remove wall tile evenly


Expect a variance in the surface of the two walls. Don't ask me why - it just happens.:yes: This is why I would suggest using a "decorative liner" or "listello" at the juncture of the old and the new wall tile. It will disrupt what the eye sees and any variance will become a moot issue.





> going to do shower floor with 2 different 6x6 tiles


Not impossible but using a 6" tile for a sloping floor could be an issue. Typically (and by code) the floor should slope 1/4" per foot of run to the drain. This may be difficult to get a 6" tile to look right while trying to maintain the slope. A smaller tile is a much better idea, maybe not larger than 2". Keep in mind that as your tiles try to surround the floor drain you will have gains and losses in the distance from wall to wall due to the slope. The wall to wall distance at the floor drain will be greater than the wall to wall distance at the base of the walls. This phenomenon will be occurring in both directions at the same time and 6" tile isn't likely to conform without some teetering and some lippage. Generally 3" tiles are the maximum size you can easily use.

This isn't to say larger tiles can't be used but it requires some comprehensive engineering of the slope. I have used 12" tiles in the past but it was a huge PITA.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> OK, Got it! Still no reason you can't easily cast your own cement receptor if you use the KERDI system. The KERDI Drain is a must however.
> 
> 
> If you still want a bench take a look at the "Better Bench". Just a corner triangle hung from the wall, it will support 400#'s. The Better Bench won't effect the footprint but requires a square corner. They also offer a small version to be used as a shampoo shelf. There is also a niche offered for a soap dish. (Recess-it)
> ...


 
Building my own slope and buying kerdi drain, corners, roll, and 5" connecting roll.....

wow it was 12" tile's from the beginning. I may re consider and look at the mesh sheets with 10-15 small tiles on them....


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

holy cow the 2x2 on a sheet $10 sq foot :O


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> holy cow the 2x2 on a sheet $10 sq foot


Ah-h-h-h-h-h! Are you sure? Five bucks a square foot was the going rate not too long ago.

Check another source.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Ah-h-h-h-h-h! Are you sure? Five bucks a square foot was the going rate not too long ago.
> 
> Check another source.


just checking with HD only... there is a floor and decor close by will check there. (if picky wife finds something she likes) .... so far with tile purchased and and kerdi i am buying ....$650 seems to do the whole project!!! :laughing:w/ my new hammer drill and tile saw :thumbup:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Ah-h-h-h-h-h! Are you sure? Five bucks a square foot was the going rate not too long ago.
> 
> Check another source.


Well new tile does not match... way off...... how would you approach the outside? walls? you can see in pics on previous post....


Considering re doing whole shower so it matches.... looked into a listello.. well I have a border close to ceiling which matches bathroom floor.... 2 would look funny.

What would you do?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

"What would I do?"

I wouldn't even attempt to do what you are doing, too many issues with that approach. I grew out of that type of rehab about a decade ago.

I would redo 100% or I wouldn't get involved but of course "not getting involved" isn't an option for you necessarily.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> "What would I do?"
> 
> I wouldn't even attempt to do what you are doing, too many issues with that approach. I grew out of that type of rehab about a decade ago.
> 
> I would redo 100% or I wouldn't get involved but of course "not getting involved" isn't an option for you necessarily.


Rehab  like that

Well i am kind of leaning that way........how far would you kerdi the walls now? (shower head high?)Will rip all the tile out.....

My next Q the tile that does not match 

is also on top of both sinks, and the whole surrounding around the big tub.....what would you do about that....see picture where it is outside the shower as well....



here's a picture










new seat wife wanted it higher


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I don't see a problem with a different tile outside of the shower especially if it matches other stuff.

A typical seat/bench is 19" above the finished floor. Anything higher is a slip hazard because proper footing in a wet area is an issue when leaning instead of sitting firmly.

I would KERDI to the ceiling juncture but you can also KERDI 3-6 inches above the dam and then use liquid waterproofing up from there sealing the KERDI edge on the wall in the process.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> I don't see a problem with a different tile outside of the shower especially if it matches other stuff.
> 
> A typical seat/bench is 19" above the finished floor. Anything higher is a slip hazard because proper footing in a wet area is an issue when leaning instead of sitting firmly.
> 
> I would KERDI to the ceiling juncture but you can also KERDI 3-6 inches above the dam and then use liquid waterproofing up from there sealing the KERDI edge on the wall in the process.


will call dal tile and see if there is any different shades... if not will redo all tile in and outside shower.

Now seat sits 20" high. think will be safe to use 1/4" durarock vs. 1/2" just on top of seat to keep it around 19/20" mark after floor is done?

Will check into the liquid waterproofing! Sounds cheaper!

THanks again.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You'll be fine with the bench in that area, 19" is a nominal number. The 1/4" Durock should work fine under those circumstances just be sure to bed it in thinset when you install it. THEN, waterproof it a-plenty with a liquid waterproofing. Home Depot sells Redgard, Others have Mapei HPG, Laticrete 9235 and Laticrete Floor and Wall Waterproofing, all are brushable. There are several others.

Actually the liquid waterproofing does cost less in the long run based on my experience. Their "spread-rates" listed on the labels are much less than what the product usually does. I also mesh tape my junctures and thinset them to fill the cracks and voids, then add the waterproofing after everything is dry. More than one coat is typically necessary.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

If I walked into that bathroom at an inspection, my first thought would be:

"Uh oh... likely going to be a leaker..." - I'm going to put a donunt stopper over the drain, aim the shower head at the bench, and run the shower for 20-30 minutes while carefully checking the ceiling below every five minutes or so.

Frequently I'm going to find water dripping out of a drywall seam or running out of the recessed light - happened twice last week.

And while of course it doesn't _have _to be that way if the showers is constructed properly, the average such installation I encounter often does leak when thoroughly tested.

Since I don't installer or repair repair showers, just inspect them, I don't have any vested interest in a particular system or solution, and based on my experience two things stand out about the job you are tackling:

1) Benches often leak. While there is no inherent reason why they can't be done right, at least here in Chicago even many experienced tile installers seem to have a hard time doing it right.

There two ways to do custom benches: you can attempt to create a watertight seal between the membrane covering the bench and the rest of liner, or you can build a bench inside the liner, for example:



















http://johnbridge.com/shower_seats.htm

Considering the large number of problems I see with benches, the second approach makes a lot of sense to me, especially if you are using a conventional liner material in a conventional built-up pan system.

2) For DIY installers, preformed solid (monolithic) pans are inherently more likely to end up waterproof than built-up pans.

If you don't want to use (or can't use) a monolithic pan, in my experience the Kerdi-Schluter approach is more likely to produce a durably watertight DYI shower than conventional scratch built methods, especially in showers with benches, irregular contours and and/or multiple high volume shower heads.

As someone notes above you have the option of just running Kerdi right up to the ceiling, were that my shower that's how I would do it, with liquid waterproofing above a liner that runs well above that bench as a close second choice.

YMMV.

-----------
 Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> You'll be fine with the bench in that area, 19" is a nominal number. The 1/4" Durock should work fine under those circumstances just be sure to bed it in thinset when you install it. THEN, waterproof it a-plenty with a liquid waterproofing. Home Depot sells Redgard, Others have Mapei HPG, Laticrete 9235 and Laticrete Floor and Wall Waterproofing, all are brushable. There are several others.
> 
> Actually the liquid waterproofing does cost less in the long run based on my experience. Their "spread-rates" listed on the labels are much less than what the product usually does. I also mesh tape my junctures and thinset them to fill the cracks and voids, then add the waterproofing after everything is dry. More than one coat is typically necessary.


backer board, thin set bed, liquid waterproof, then kerdi??? 



Got some mesh tape for the backer board plan to tape and mortar all seems.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Michael Thomas said:


> If I walked into that bathroom at an inspection, my first thought would be:
> 
> "Uh oh... likely going to be a leaker..." - I'm going to put a donunt stopper over the drain, aim the shower head at the bench, and run the shower for 20-30 minutes while carefully checking the ceiling below every five minutes or so.
> 
> ...


I agree, if doing a liner that seems to be a 100% leak proof for the bench!

Considering I plan to keep my house unless I can no longer afford. I am going to redo whole shower. There is no waterproofing on the walls at all now! 

I may re consider my current bench. Will continue to do some research.

Thanks for the input


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> backer board, thin set bed, liquid waterproof, then kerdi???


OK, hold on, this is getting out of hand maybe.

You could build the bench from plywood on a level floor. I wouldn't be building a bench that size out of plywood but hey that's just me, some guys do it all the time.

Cover the bench with cement board.

Mesh tape all the vertical junctures on the walls and the horizontal bench junctures and fill the tape with thinset.

Then cast the floor slope from walls to drain and from bench to drain. Maintain the same elevation around the perimeter.

Install the KERDI on the slope and up the walls and bench. Go up 3-4 inches above the top of the dam.



Use liquid waterproofing to waterproof the hell out of everything from the top of the KERDI (3" up the walls) up to and including the ceiling. This will require more than one application of liquid waterproofing, watch for pin holes and fill them abundantly. Include the top seam of the KERDI and waterproof it to the walls also.

This is not that complicated.




> Originally Posted by *Michael Thomas*
> _If I walked into that bathroom at an inspection, my first thought would be:_
> 
> _"Uh oh... likely going to be a leaker..." _


Bullchit!:yes:

Let's keep goin' I'll be the inspector on this one.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

backer board on bench only, it's pretty sturdy... used about 16' of 2x4's and a couple feet of 2x6.... 

YOu says not that complicated.... first time for me... but you have explained fully seems pretty easy now  will see when im done


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Kerdi came today. That stuff is waterproof for sure.... dries really quick.......Found some 2x2 mosaic gold nugget on sale today $2.30 a sheet :thumbsup:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Found some 2x2 mosaic gold nugget on sale today $2.30 a sheet :thumbsup:


Good deal! I knew you could do it.



> Kerdi came today. That stuff is waterproof for sure.... dries really quick.......


Just remember if you have seams they must lap 2" everywhere. Just for fun while you have the liquid waterproofing going paint those KERDI seams also. Not a requirement but none-the-less a piece of mind.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Good deal! I knew you could do it.
> 
> 
> Just remember if you have seams they must lap 2" everywhere. Just for fun while you have the liquid waterproofing going paint those KERDI seams also. Not a requirement but none-the-less a piece of mind.


Sounds like a plan... ever used customerblend from HD As unmodified? only $5 almost seems to cheap


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> Ever used customerblend from HD As unmodified? only $5 almost seems to cheap


This past spring the price began to rise and Customblend is now selling for $8 at our local HD. All thinsets are rising locally 20 to 60%.

To answer your question...yes I use it for cement board type installations. Be warned tho that Customblend is a very basic and low-grade unmodified thinset.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> This past spring the price began to rise and Customblend is now selling for $8 at our local HD. All thinsets are rising locally 20 to 60%.
> 
> To answer your question...yes I use it for cement board type installations. Be warned tho that Customblend is a very basic and low-grade unmodified thinset.


sounds good


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Project has been on hold... football and kindergarden


man, takes forever to get the tile and harbibacker board off wall. 

What kind of mortar should i use against the glass blocks and wall?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> What kind of mortar should i use *against the glass blocks and wall?*


Uh-well-um-uh....six pages of posts and now you throw in this curve ball? I ain't going back to read all that crap again. Enlighten me about this glass block, means nothing to me right now. 

And...against the wall???
Huh?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Uh-well-um-uh....six pages of posts and now you throw in this curve ball? I ain't going back to read all that crap again. Enlighten me about this glass block, means nothing to me right now.
> 
> And...against the wall???
> Huh?


 
Gotcha 

Tore alot of mortar out between blocks and wall. Can I just use what ever thin set I use with the kerdi? Just another general question to throw in while posting 

pictures make things easier.... check out the receptacles


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I don't see what thinset has to do with any of those glass blocks.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> check out the receptacles
> check out the receptacles
> check out the receptacles


Now you got me again. What receptacles?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> I don't see what thinset has to do with any of those glass blocks.


:no:
Reason I ask... same stuff holding tiles on wall was in between......
Wall not to stable since i removed everything...... :huh:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> same stuff holding tiles on wall was in between......


In between the glass blocks???

Don't see that being possible. Thinset wouldn't stay in that vertical position, it would quickly droop and come out I'm thinking.

What receptacles?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Now you got me again. What receptacles?


 
if you  at picture #2 there is 2- single gang boxes, and 12-2 going in them .... one is a bath gfi, and one is the GFI for jetted tub. 

Just seems out of place, then again I am not a home inspector......


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> In between the glass blocks???
> 
> Don't see that being possible. Thinset wouldn't stay in that vertical position, it would quickly droop and come out I'm thinking.
> 
> What receptacles?


 
Yes--between (3) 2x4s and the glass wall going to ceiling...... 
just want to put right stuff back..:thumbup:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Don't see that being possible. Thinset wouldn't stay in that vertical position, it would quickly droop and come out I'm thinking.


Lol then what should I use?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

NIches
If I build on on the wall, water will constantly hit it because of the body sprayers. If I slope the bottom and use kerdi do you think that will be ok? Or should I do away with it?

Niche Location: see the bay with (2) 2x4s stacked.. good/bad location?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> NIches
> If I build on on the wall, water will constantly hit it because of the body sprayers. If I slope the bottom and use kerdi do you think that will be ok? Or should I do away with it?


Niches are a nice thing to have in a shower. You can buy premade waterproof niches from many sources. I would suggest you look at the Noble Company niches. There are several sizes and designs. That is your best bet.

If you build your own custom niche I wouldn't screw around with KERDI in that case, you may come away suicidal. Frame the niche as you have, line it with cement board sides and back. Fill the junctures with thinset and mesh tape then after the thinset is dry Redgard the hell out of it. Pay particular attention to the back corners and be sure there are no pin-holes.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Now this "glass block" thing.

If you are adding more glass blocks there is a special "glass block mortar" that should be used, nothing else.

You can also buy glass blocks in panel units already glazed.

You can also buy glass block installation kits that contain spacers to stack the blocks on then silicone for the mortar joints. That system is a big joke from what I have seen. Getting that much silicone to look good would be a real challenge.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Niches are a nice thing to have in a shower. You can buy premade waterproof niches from many sources. I would suggest you look at the Noble Company niches. There are several sizes and designs. That is your best bet.
> 
> If you build your own custom niche I wouldn't screw around with KERDI in that case, you may come away suicidal. Frame the niche as you have, line it with cement board sides and back. Fill the junctures with thinset and mesh tape then after the thinset is dry Redgard the hell out of it. Pay particular attention to the back corners and be sure there are no pin-holes.


 
10-4
THanks


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Now this "glass block" thing.
> 
> If you are adding more glass blocks there is a special "glass block mortar" that should be used, nothing else.
> 
> ...


No,
not adding or anything like that... basically have a triangle gap about 3" deep that was previously filled with mortar... or something. I had to break out to get tile and board out. I just want to fill back in... Since removal that whole wall is flemsy.....

I see quikrete glass block mortar....

Thanks again....


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

OK Bud back to the old thread... since you advised kerdi was my best method.... I decided to do all kerdi... since the body sprayers - spray the opposite wall..

I know it's sloppy and a few over lapped that could have been prevented but .......hopefully i never have a leak on the side where all the heads are...... the water cut off's are where the big hole is.......could not cover all the way...

with what has been finished will it work? Do you see any problems so far?










Niche not waterproofed yet either











I have not finished on the left side of the seat....












sloppyyyyyyy next shower should be much better


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I can tell you there is a definite "learning curve" when using KERDI. A simple floor is one thing - what you are doing is a bit more sophisticated and would challenge a lot of pros. That includes me. It appears you are doing fine. I always hated to wallpaper! Keep in mind that all KERDI-laps must be a minimum of two inches - EVERYWHERE.

You must watch out for "bulk". Lapping KERDI can create bulk and this will haunt you come time to tile. When you lap the KERDI use a 6" putty knife to squeeze the thinset from under the KERDI at all the seams. Press those junctures as flat as you can get them.

I use KERDI Band because it is 1/2 the thickness of KERDI Mat and makes for lower profile seams.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

[/quote]I use KERDI Band because it is 1/2 the thickness of KERDI Mat and makes for lower profile seams.[/quote]
I DID NOT KNOW THAT 

2" overlap yes i seen the dotted lines on kerdi:wink:
I bought 60' of 5" band.. several inner/outter corners which i have used in seat....

Using 6" putty knife now......BULK i have definetly created on the seat ....

squeezing the **** out of it.. hands hurt

thanks for the input again!


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

It's a lot of work, but considering the number of leaking "conventional" tiled showers I see, IMO well worth the effort to do it this way.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

another q

What is the best grout sealer to use in shower? Are they all pretty much the same? Just apply yearly? Someone at lowe's recommended this spray on sealer!
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=146449-1168-9535-108&lpage=none


Thanks


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Those spray-on sealers are useless. In fact there was one brand a few years ago that put scores of people in the hospital with chemical pneumonia and there were also fatalities. That isn't why they are useless but it's reason enough to stay away from them.

Use one of the liquids that can be painted-on and you can see what is happening.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Those spray-on sealers are useless. In fact there was one brand a few years ago that put scores of people in the hospital with chemical pneumonia and there were also fatalities. That isn't why they are useless but it's reason enough to stay away from them.
> 
> Use one of the liquids that can be painted-on and you can see what is happening.


 
10-4 will return... what brand do you recommend? Are they all the same once I get a liquid?

Also will I still use my 1/4" by 3/16" V trowel to put on my 12x12 tiles? I think that's what i read to use with the kerdi!


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## jpcustoms (Sep 26, 2009)

*leaking shower*



Ineedhelp2009 said:


> My tile floor in shower is leaking through to crawlspace. Also about 1' into flooring outisde shower is leaking and the grout is all broken up. Just noticed since I moved the rug.
> THere is black fury mold on the plywood that is outside the shower. Will replace that so all that tile in that area will come up but....
> 
> I went to HD looking for the tile the guy said discotinued years ago! how would you approach the flooring.


 i agree, i would gut and start over. when you do, you'll prob find more issues.


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## jpcustoms (Sep 26, 2009)

*leaking shower*

after looking at your pics, i would gut the whole bathroom. by looking at it, you have a good layout and could really make a statement with some creative tile work in there...it's a ton of work but take pics as you proceed and the end result will be worth it. check out the pebble sqs available on the market that a lot of folks are using in showers now. a couple of good suppliers are solistone, stratastones and every floor...dare to get creative and you'll be pleased with results...


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jpcustoms said:


> after looking at your pics, i would gut the whole bathroom. by looking at it, you have a good layout and could really make a statement with some creative tile work in there...it's a ton of work but take pics as you proceed and the end result will be worth it. check out the pebble sqs available on the market that a lot of folks are using in showers now. a couple of good suppliers are solistone, stratastones and every floor...dare to get creative and you'll be pleased with results...


 
I thought about that.

There is already 2 different types of tile in the bath... and I am not sure how to do somehting fancy. My wife and I have looked at alot of pictures and just don't see much that will match/go with everything existing.

Will keep looking though have not tiled yet


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

jpcustoms said:


> after looking at your pics, i would gut the whole bathroom. by looking at it, you have a good layout and could really make a statement with some creative tile work in there...it's a ton of work but take pics as you proceed and the end result will be worth it. check out the pebble sqs available on the market that a lot of folks are using in showers now. a couple of good suppliers are solistone, stratastones and every floor...dare to get creative and you'll be pleased with results...


I read it wrong the 1st time. 

Really do not have the money or time. This project has taken almost 2 months and about $1500 - It's just the shower. That bathroom is 200 Sq ft. 

I would love to though. It's outdated


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Everything look ok Bud? Plan to start tiling from ceiling tommorrow. 

THere is 5" band meeting together then a kerdi piece cut for the top will that be good enough? 

I Think i should have used one piece of band all the way....










THis look ok? 










Need to buy one more piece of outter edge to finish right side... or can I do like top corners?

Do you generally get a piece of solid stone to make your second shelf? just rough in when I tile? I know it will need to be tilted to.










Yes i love the bulky layers make me feel safer


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Great thread going here folks! :thumbsup: Ineedhelp2009, when your shower project is all finished you might consider posting your pictures in the "How To" subforum. A _how to build a Kerdi shower_ tutorial with some step by step description of the work would really benefit others who come here for help with their showers.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

I agree that's why I have been posting as I go

But Bud on the other hand......has been a great teacher.....My original route was for sure a future problem. He needs a paypal donation button on his sig


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## jpcustoms (Sep 26, 2009)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> I read it wrong the 1st time.
> 
> Really do not have the money or time. This project has taken almost 2 months and about $1500 - It's just the shower. That bathroom is 200 Sq ft.
> 
> I would love to though. It's outdated


 well looks like your doing fine...keep up the good work...


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

How to you make a second shelf in your niches? Glass? Solid stone?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Hard to tell for sure what's going on but everything looks OK. As long as you have maintained a two-inch lap of the KERDI everywhere that's all they say is necessary.

The bulk created when lapping the KERDI is always an issue. I use thinset to feather out-and-away from the bulk to keep smaller tiles from wanting to take a dive or teetor when crossing the bulky areas.

A second shelf in a niche isn't a problem. It can be set into the tile as you go. For niche shelves sometimes I use stone, sometimes Corian, some glazed ceramic tiles can be used if they have one edge coated with glazing, unglazed porcelain can be used but you may want to dress-down the tell-tale edge by sanding it to soften any sharp edges.

To the left of the glass block I think I see some raw drywall - what's that all about?

Also, I would caulk the bottoms of the glass block to the KERDI at this point to insure moisture doesn't get under the KERDI at that point. THEN, after the tile is installed caulk that same juncture again.

Luukin' guud!:thumbsup:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Hard to tell for sure what's going on but everything looks OK. As long as you have maintained a two-inch lap of the KERDI everywhere that's all they say is necessary.
> 
> The bulk created when lapping the KERDI is always an issue. I use thinset to feather out-and-away from the bulk to keep smaller tiles from wanting to take a dive or teetor when crossing the bulky areas.
> 
> ...


maintaining 2-3" overlap
I should have feathered it out... oh well will make mud thinner on high spots when tiling. 

Corian I like that idea

Raw dry wall - plan to cover with kerdi. Almost done with kerdi

Will caulk around blocks good eye.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Ineedhelp,

You mentioned a 3/16x1/4" V trowel to install your tiles in post # 107. Although Schluter now recommends a different sized trowel, that trowel will work to install the Kerdi, definitely not for the 12x12" tiles though. You should be thinking more on the lines of 1/4x3/8x1/4 for those tiles.

The 3/16x1/4 V was the original trowel recommended for both Kerdi & Ditra. Both recommendations have changed. They now recommend 1/8" square for Kerdi. 

Jaz


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

JazMan said:


> Ineedhelp,
> 
> You mentioned a 3/16x1/4" V trowel to install your tiles in post # 107. Although Schluter now recommends a different sized trowel, that trowel will work to install the Kerdi, definitely not for the 12x12" tiles though. You should be thinking more on the lines of 1/4x3/8x1/4 for those tiles.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jaz
Have one in the barn :thumbup:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> They now recommend 1/8" square for Kerdi.


:yes::yes:

That's OK...no thanks necessary!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> :yes::yes:
> 
> That's OK...no thanks necessary!


Another Q

Where one wall meets antoher wall in the corners, where the wall meets the seat, and wall meets floor. 

Do I grout then caulk..... grout only... caulk only......?

Movement in my shower is possible. I am on a crawl space. 9 months ago I had to jack my house up 2". Due to poor shimming


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

What would be the point in applying caulk over grout? I have never understood that concept.

You use caulk in the junctures and changes in plane to afford the project some opportunity to flex and expand and contract and move slightly. If that is the case...why would it be OK to use grout in those junctures? What would caulking over the grout do for the project? NOTHING!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> What would be the point in applying caulk over grout? I have never understood that concept.
> 
> You use caulk in the junctures and changes in plane to afford the project some opportunity to flex and expand and contract and move slightly. If that is the case...why would it be OK to use grout in those junctures? What would caulking over the grout do for the project? NOTHING!


 Thought you would never ask!

I read it online...... well i read use clear silicone over the grout so at least it looks nice......and if grout cracks you still have protection

i will do some tiling today and post


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

.....


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

HOw to you guys tile your niches? Where the tile meets... (from inner wall of niche and outter wall of the wall)... do you grout it? Use bullnose tiles? Use some sort of trim? Pictures if you have any please.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> HOw to you guys tile your niches? Where the tile meets... (from inner wall of niche and outter wall of the wall)... do you grout it? Use bullnose tiles? Use some sort of trim? Pictures if you have any please.


the start... this is time consuming... making sure everything is perfect...


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)




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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

My opinion is the back-wall tile(s) should sit atop the bottom tile/shelf so as to promote water shedding. With KERDI it's not a big deal but a matter of personal prefference. That way... water can't sit "on" the bottom grout line migrating into the thinset, the grout line is vertical.

Lookin' good!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> My opinion is the back-wall tile(s) should sit atop the bottom tile/shelf so as to promote water shedding. With KERDI it's not a big deal but a matter of personal prefference. That way... water can't sit "on" the bottom grout line migrating into the thinset, the grout line is vertical.
> 
> Lookin' good!


See the angle on the front of shelf? That angle is on the back to.. THe tiles sit on that angle to hide it. I plan to do clear silicone bead just incase.....I could not slide them all the way back... only 3.5" deep wanted them flush with wall tiles

FInding shelves for this niche was a PITA.. The shelves are marble threshhold

I have learned alot the hard way.... if my niche was 11.5" wide VS. the 13" it is i would have a LOT more options. 

I plan to do my seat that way.... tile it first all the way to walls ... then tile walls...

Good Eye Bud


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

KERDI is fun to draw on with a felt tip marker also. I love doing that!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> KERDI is fun to draw on with a felt tip marker also. I love doing that!


 
yep gave my son 2 markers and a crayon he has a big picture on one side :laughing:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

man this took way way to long


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> man this took way way to long


Yow...they have a way of doing that. 

Lookin' good, it'll be worth it.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Yow...they have a way of doing that.
> 
> Lookin' good, it'll be worth it.


still chugging along. 6 days a week working and a 5 year old leaves no time to work on bathroom. 

I am ready to do my slope/mud floor.

I bought the stainless kerdi drain......Is there any tricks to this before I start? 

I have felt paper, wire mesh, 2 bags quikcrete sand topping mix and 1 bag quikcrete play sand. 

From what I gather Bud... 2" border of mud around whole wall level it and slope 1/4" per foot to drain? 

Thanks for the advise ahead of time :thumbup:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Is the drain installed?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Is the drain installed?


no...just wood floor


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## groutonce (Dec 12, 2009)

I agree with Bud Cline, I think that has been there a long time. Make sure when you go back you use a product to KILL the mold. The common myth is that you can kill mold with chlorine bleach and that is just not true. Look for a mold and mildew remover with an ingredient to kill it. I also agree with the other poster that said do not use your tile and grout to mitigate moisture, but it is a good Idea to seal it all when done as insurance. The pics look great I could not have done better myself.
Groutonce


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

groutonce said:


> I agree with Bud Cline, I think that has been there a long time. Make sure when you go back you use a product to KILL the mold. The common myth is that you can kill mold with chlorine bleach and that is just not true. Look for a mold and mildew remover with an ingredient to kill it. I also agree with the other poster that said do not use your tile and grout to mitigate moisture, but it is a good Idea to seal it all when done as insurance. The pics look great I could not have done better myself.
> Groutonce


Thanks for the reply. I ended up tearing out all wood with mold on it. I'll tell ya it was stinky for days


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I ended up tearing out all wood with mold on it. I'll tell ya it was stinky for days


please chime in while it's still wet...... YES I KNOW it's not the most level thing you have ever seen but will it work? SHould i change anything. 




















wish i would have put shelf closer to shower heads...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Now more KERDI? Is that correct? Then Kerdi-Band? Is that correct? Then what?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

soon to be done!!!! thats whats next


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

will this work with band? Is the gap to big? SHould I go the other direction wth 2 pieces? If so I have to buy more


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Depends on the size of the KERDI Band you use. Looks like the 7" band would work. Remember, you need a minimum overlap of 2", certainly no less.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Depends on the size of the KERDI Band you use. Looks like the 7" band would work. Remember, you need a minimum overlap of 2", certainly no less.


ahhh I have 5" that's where it leaked before I do not want to go cheap will buy some 7"


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Good plan!!!


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## ponch37300 (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow, this is a great thread by you and bud. Thanks for the thorough write up and the pictures. Can't wait to see it done and I'm sure you can't wait either. Must have a really patient wife!

One thing I don't think was mentioned and from reading seems like you may not know this since you were talking about clear silicone. They make silicone caulk to match your grout, sanded or unsanded. You might have to special order it or get it from a tile store and not HD but it looks really nice and matches the grout perfect.


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## R&D Tile (Feb 6, 2006)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> will this work with band? Is the gap to big? SHould I go the other direction wth 2 pieces? If so I have to buy more


Why buy more, just butt what you have there up to the wall, cut off the excess and use it on the other side up to the wall overlapping two inches, then install your kerdi band.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

BE CAREFUL not to build-up too many layers of the KERDI products. The KERDI Band isn't as thick as the KERDI Mat. Too much bulk with seams and corner laps will give you crooked walls and humps and bumps.

More is not better in this case.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

ponch37300 said:


> Wow, this is a great thread by you and bud. Thanks for the thorough write up and the pictures. Can't wait to see it done and I'm sure you can't wait either. Must have a really patient wife!
> 
> One thing I don't think was mentioned and from reading seems like you may not know this since you were talking about clear silicone. They make silicone caulk to match your grout, sanded or unsanded. You might have to special order it or get it from a tile store and not HD but it looks really nice and matches the grout perfect.


Thanks and if it wasen't for bud I would have done a liner. (already bought but returned) I think this system will work and seems to be the best route for me, a first timer!

Would you say caulk my seat and floor seams where water will hit the most vs. grout... maybe grout the wall corners only? 

Not sure if you guys have seen but I had a big post about jacking up my house as well. Cracking grout is a big possiblity in the future. It it still settling!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

R&D Tile said:


> Why buy more, just butt what you have there up to the wall, cut off the excess and use it on the other side up to the wall overlapping two inches, then install your kerdi band.


that one last piece hanging over will go on the other door frame you can seen in picture. I have to buy some either route since using 5" may not work.

Like bud said bulky. I still have to add the inner corners


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Technically......
All "changes-in-plane" should be caulked, not grouted.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Technically......
> All "changes-in-plane" should be caulked, not grouted.


is 2 3/4" from floor to curb to high? Looks like it. Should I add something to curb to make a little taller?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

OK now I'm getting lost again.

First you ask is 2-3/4" too high for a curb and you say "it looks like it". Am I reading it correctly?

THEN you ask if you should add to the height of the curb. I think your fine right where you are. In most cases this would work. There is no set standard, but generally a curb is around 3" on the inside of the shower and about six inches on the outside.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> OK now I'm getting lost again.
> 
> First you ask is 2-3/4" too high for a curb and you say "it looks like it". Am I reading it correctly?
> 
> THEN you ask if you should add to the height of the curb. I think your fine right where you are. In most cases this would work. There is no set standard, but generally a curb is around 3" on the inside of the shower and about six inches on the outside.


I have lost you enough to write a book :thumbup:

Yes 2.75 inside, and around 6.5 outside :thumbsup:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Go!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Go!


i'll tell ya. I thought this was going to be $750 or less project. I just bought some 7" kerdi band. I am up to around $2000 so far. But I did get some new tools :laughing::yes:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Go!


 HD sells the caulk that matches my grout :thumbsup:


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Is there anything I should change/fix? I am using corner pieces and I have 2 outters to go one the curb.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

All looks OK from my house!

I see the kids have been busy helping with the walls!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> All looks OK from my house!
> 
> I see the kids have been busy helping with the walls!


Yea he shot out a few of the sharpies:no:


The other 2 sides can wait until the floor dries, that bending over junk kills my back. 

Hoping to do the other sides tomorrow and water test Wednesday!!! if that pans out should finish tiling sunday. 

What is your choice of grout sealer?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Aqua-Mix is my usual choice in grout/tile sealers but Tile Lab from Home Depot works for me also.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

tile lab it is any particular one?

since i have made the 7 month post and its almost done here was my next step. About 2.5-3" of water..... will find out tomorrow if BUD was a good teacher ))))))))))


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

*HOLY CRAP don't be putin' no water in that thing!!!!*


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

I read that online from john bridge kerdI book


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> *HOLY CRAP don't be putin' no water in that thing!!!!*


0 leaks will hopefully get all tiled this weekend


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Just kidding!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Just kidding!


i was nervous. I seen that post at 6 PM at work... haha did not get home until 7:30 i was sweating bullets the whole time


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

SORRY!

Sometimes I have a weird sense of humor. I'm sure you'll be fine. So how long did you let the water sit in the receptor?


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> SORRY!
> 
> Sometimes I have a weird sense of humor. I'm sure you'll be fine. So how long did you let the water sit in the receptor?


all good, i will take a hit or two for the knowledge gained. 24 hours. hoping to be done in a few weeks. I AM TIRED OF walking upstairs in the cold. 

I bought some color matching caulk/silicone. I plan to grout the walls but caulk shelf, seat, the edges going from seat to floor, curb and along the base of the floor. Sound good?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You can do whatever you are comfortable with but if you have purchased 100% silicone I wouldn't use it if it were me. Siliconized caulk is OK, acrylic caulk is OK, but that stinking 100% silicone will ruin an otherwise good tile installation. Pure silicone (100%) is very difficult to work with and can ruin the tiles surface. Once it gets smeared on tile it is usually there to stay and is hard to eradicate. Proponents use alcohol to dress the silicone but that isn't easy and can make a helluva mess in the hands of someone not too experienced using caulk. A tiled shower such as this one is a showcase of one's ability and talents and using 100% silicone will put a guys pride and bragging-rights straight in the dumpers. If you are experienced with 100% silicone and comfortable with using it then go for it. If not, think about it for a while.

Sorry don't want to throw you a curve.

You can buy grout matching siliconized caulk also. Siliconized caulks can be dressed with a damp/wet sponge perfectly, 100% silicone cannot. Siliconized caulks can be cleaned up (when fresh) with water, 100% silicone cannot.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

ahhhhhh no wonder a few weeks ago when I tore out the grout and replaced with caulk. Where coutetops meet backsplash. I just checked it was 100% silicone and was a PITA. 2.5 tubes just to caulk 20' because I had to keep taking out and restarting.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

it was a special order from HD. THey knew my application. Hopefully it's right. 1 tube was almost $11


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

> ahhhhhh no wonder a few weeks ago when I tore out the grout and replaced with caulk. Where coutetops meet backsplash. I just checked it was 100% silicone and was a PITA. 2.5 tubes just to caulk 20' because I had to keep taking out and restarting.


Well then you know of what I speak.
Seriously as you have found out - a person can do more harm than good using 100% silicone when it comes to a tile installation.

Siliconized caulk that matches any grout color and comes sanded or unsanded costs about 7-8 bucks per tube at HD, Lowe's, Menard's.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

it's by TILE PERFECT non sanded. Siliconized. THATS GOOD!!!!!!!


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

OK that's better!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> OK that's better!


 
quess I should have got sanded since my grout is sanded :furious:


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

OH WELL, not the end of the world. The color may look a little different because of the lack of texture from the sand but it should fly.

Keep in mind that the sand is a filler and reduces the potential for the caulk to shrink. Keep your gaps that are to be caulked small to reduce shrinkage.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> OH WELL, not the end of the world. The color may look a little different because of the lack of texture from the sand but it should fly.
> 
> Keep in mind that the sand is a filler and reduces the potential for the caulk to shrink. Keep your gaps that are to be caulked small to reduce shrinkage.


SOunds good to me


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

well did not tile this weekend drank to much last night )))))

how would you approach this? Make that tiny cut so the wall tiles sit on top? Or fill gap with caulk? Of course when wall tile installed gap will be smaller? How would it look if cut was 1 block in? Maybe a few blocks in? almost like a 1/4 border....????


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## just tile (Jan 17, 2010)

the cement pan probably tore the liner when you jacked up the house. you only have to replace one row in the shower to replace a pan liner. but if you want the tile match it probably wont. i would go in the crawl space and kill the mold with some zep. mold killer. and save the floor. good luck.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

just tile said:


> the cement pan probably tore the liner when you jacked up the house. you only have to replace one row in the shower to replace a pan liner. but if you want the tile match it probably wont. i would go in the crawl space and kill the mold with some zep. mold killer. and save the floor. good luck.


THe liner was installed poorly. Jacking the house I am sure cracked some grout and let water flow to liner. Nails were 1" from floor. I tore all of the wood out so no mold present. Yes My inital plan was to replace bottom 6" or so. But no tile match. Also want the whole shower waterproof so no possible leak in the future.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

How about using your wall tile to cut a narrow border around the floor. If you do the math correctly the field you have laid out now would be basically in the same position and the border tiles cut from wall tile would/could be about 2-1/4" or so.

The drain looks to be centered great and the sides all appear to be equal - lookin' good so far.

If you border the floor with wall tile remember the wall tile will be thicker than the floor tile you are using. This may or may not be an issue for you. You would want to use factory edges off the wall tile turned into the rield of the floor in all cases and this will waste some wall tile but - what the heck.

Just a thought!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> How about using your wall tile to cut a narrow border around the floor. If you do the math correctly the field you have laid out now would be basically in the same position and the border tiles cut from wall tile would/could be about 2-1/4" or so.
> 
> The drain looks to be centered great and the sides all appear to be equal - lookin' good so far.
> 
> ...


GOOD THOUGHT. I will make a few cuts next time and see how it goes...... Yes drain is almost dead center.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

As you know...
those drains have a little sideways adjustment to them if you need it. It's pure genius.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> As you know...
> those drains have a little sideways adjustment to them if you need it. It's pure genius.


 
thats why its ALMOST .... Since i can move cylinder/drain a little to the left :thumbup: it's dead center


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

I did a little tiling Monday..... I laid the tiles on wall behind seat directly on top of seat tiles? With No gap. I plan to caulk that though......Good Idea/Bad Idea? Should I do floor/wall tiles the same way?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You ALWAYS want to leave a gap for expansion (to be caulked). Especially in a shower where temperatures change suddenly and frequently. Tiles sitting tight on other tiles can cause spalling and chipping. In fact, a chip could suddenly take off like a bullet I suppose, I wouldn't want to be in there when it did.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

makes sense, will leave 1/8" gap on floor. 

Thanks again!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

ok do i use NON sanded grout???? some of the lines are really SMALL...........Border came out ok. Grout lines will not match the wall but would rather them match the 2x2 tiles.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Sanded grout.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

ahhh grouting walls alot harder. what a PITA


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Wow! When those photos first came into view I was taken back by the impact they had. Very nice job. Very nice.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> Wow! When those photos first came into view I was taken back by the impact they had. Very nice job. Very nice.


THanks a big thanks for all your help and the 6 months sprocess HA-ha 
HAve to buy more grout to finish the outside floor and corners of wall. I bought 20 yr sealer. Apply with sponge?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

I have myself convinced the best way to apply sealer on a ceramic tile floor is to use one of those cheap foam brushes. Apply only to the grout, watch it soak in for a minute or two then wipe off any that has gotten on the tile. With stone tile I use a spray bottle, let it soak a few minutes and wipe away any remaining pools. The bottle with the roller works pretty good to but with the foam brush the exact distribution is easier to control.

On walls, I do it the same way but walls are a huge PITA. Pay attention to the uncontrollable drips and runs and be sure to clean them up immediately.


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> I have myself convinced the best way to apply sealer on a ceramic tile floor is to use one of those cheap foam brushes. Apply only to the grout, watch it soak in for a minute or two then wipe off any that has gotten on the tile. With stone tile I use a spray bottle, let it soak a few minutes and wipe away any remaining pools. The bottle with the roller works pretty good to but with the foam brush the exact distribution is easier to control.
> 
> On walls, I do it the same way but walls are a huge PITA. Pay attention to the uncontrollable drips and runs and be sure to clean them up immediately.


sounds like a plan i like that idea.
will do, i bought the green bottle of tile lab


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ineedhelp2009 said:


> sounds like a plan i like that idea.
> will do, i bought the green bottle of tile lab


 
Just sealed it showering tommorrow. I like the brush pretty easy with wife going behind me with sponge :laughing:
Thanks again for all your help


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Not a problem - GOOD LUCK!


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## Ineedhelp2009 (Feb 18, 2009)

Let me ask.... I caulked the floor/wall juncture, but there are a few areas on lower wall by seat and a few grout lines on floor. They look wet even two days later without use. Seems like there is a leak or something and moisture is underneath... is this normal? I used the green bottle of tile lab sealer. I did it two times over everything. Do I need to let dry completely and do a third time?


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

What happens if you probe the offending area and compare it to the other areas using the same method? Don't damage anything, just poke around a little and see if the the caulk is more firm in one spot than another. Something doesn't sound right.


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