# Hot tub water is electrified with 60 Volts? please help



## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

First want to start off and thank you for your time in reviewing this. I have had a 4 wire hot tub for 5 years now. On occation when I touched the GFCI disconnect I have felt a “buzzing fuzzy feeling” in my hand. Didn’t think much of it. The other day I placed my fingers in the water to add my usual bromine tab to it. I suddenly felt the “buzzing fuzzy” feeling in my fingers! Never noticed this before in the water. This can’t be good. I did some research and reviewed the wiring diagram for the tub. My tub is a balboa tub is a 4 wire 240V. From the tub there are 4 wires a black, white, red and a green. My electrician wired a black, white and green to the main in my basement to the external GFCI disconnect . I think this 3 wire configuration may be the problem. 

I did always feel the electrical charge at the external GFCI disconnect but never in the water. I placed my voltmeter in the water and then to the ground and recorded 50-60 volts in the water. At times when the water is not charged I do get the the same volt reding on the actual disconnect box. I connected a voltmeter to the door of the disconnect and to a piece of metal I placed on the ground and documented that the actual “box” is charged with what appers to be 100+ volts. It comes and goes and it makes no difference if the blowers are on or the underwater light is on or off. Sometimes the water is charged sometimes it isn’t. I have several photos here of the existing wiring. Any help would be greatly appreciated

When looking at the photo of the GFCI the left side 3 wire conduit is from the house main and the right side is the 4 wire conduit from the spa.
When looking at the photo of my "house main" the 50A breaker is the bottom left. There is a black and a white going to it. It looks like there is a big red wire also but it's just another wire from another appliance that IS NOT CONNECTED to the bthe spa breaker. Only a black and white. The green is connected to the silver bar thingy in the middle left. The conduit from the external GFCI is the metal conduit on the top left of the main panel


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Something's definitely not right here, but I'm still thinking about what it is. For starters, IMMEDIATELY turn off the breaker feeding that spa panel. You should seriously think about calling out a licensed electrician, preferably not the one that installed this. If you had been grounded a little better when you touched the water or the spa panel, you could have been killed.

I really don't like the looks of that re-marked green wire as a neutral, especially since it appears to be a size smaller than the hots. Also, is that plastic conduit feeding the spa panel? If so, there's no grounding means at all, which is incredibly illegal and dangerous. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think even if metal conduit is used for a spa panel, there still needs to be an insulated ground wire.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

On closer examination, that's definitely PVC conduit. That's without a doubt one of the stupidest things I've ever seen. Get the original electrician to pay a different company to come do it right. Was the original electrician even licensed? Was there a permit and inspection for this work?


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## Speedy Petey (Feb 1, 2004)

I agree. This is a 3-wire feed to a 4-wire tub. He used a green wire remarked for the neutral and did not run a ground. 

HOW people walk away from work like this is beyond me. 

I would not have the last guy re-do this, but I would definitely inform him that he created a serious violation and dangerous condition with this installation.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think you are both correct. The latter observation is what I think the issue is a4 wire tub wired into a 3 wire feeder. He did "re-mark" other wires with different colored electrical tape also for some reason. I have used this tub for 5 years wired like this. Lucky to be alive. I have read on other forums that the feeder needs to be 4 wires to be properly grounded. The "pigtail" from the tub is flex tube and not metal.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

I do have a different electrician coming out in a few days to re-evaluate this. I was looking to see what others thought in the interim. Thanks again


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

do not use this hot tub until this is repaired and verified there is no voltage present where it shouldn't be.

I presume you already came to that conclusion but just wanted to be sure.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This is what I see

There are 4 wires going to the spa white (neutral) red (T2) black (T1) and a solid green insulated ground terminated to the grounding lug on the back of the spa disconnect.

From the main panel is a white insulated wire marked black (L2) and a black (L1) terminated to the pullout block of the the spa disconnect. And a green insulated wire marked white for the neutral terminated to the disconnects neutral bar. 3 wires only .. *no* insulated green equipment grounding wire and if that is and it appears to be pvc conduit there is not fault path back to the source so that a breaker will trip.

NOT very smart on the installers part.


However that does not explain the voltage on the metal of the panel as the spa does have the correct wiring though not properly sized or identified. It is missing the equipment ground back to the service panel .... but this will not effect the operation of the spa or place voltage on the metal of the panel.

The question that first hit me when op stated amount of voltage on spa panel metal was ...why hasn't a breaker tripped??

Well that is rather obvious .. no low impedance ground fault path back to the service equipment. NO breaker can trip.

This is incredibly dangerous and it is a miracle no one was electrocuted in that spa or by touching that panel being all wet etc...

But it doesn't explain the energized panel. A fault has occurred or a miswire at the spa control panel or something as the ground wire or metal conduit to the spa (if its metal) is energized.

Spa needs to be turned off as stated and the cause located.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Right, there's definitely a ground fault somewhere causing the voltage, and it probably would have been noticed earlier if there had been an EGC present to allow the breaker to trip. Makes me wonder why the GFCI doesn't trip. I assume either the GFCI is faulty, or the fault is in the spa panel, before the GFCI.

But I think we all agree on the bottom line, which is that the breaker should be left off until an electrician can evaluate. I'm of the opinion that something like this is just too risky for DIY troubleshooting.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> But I think we all agree on the bottom line, which is that the breaker should be left off until an electrician can evaluate. I'm of the opinion that something like this is just too risky for DIY troubleshooting.


Yes absolutely.

And yes I agree that the gfci should trip if a load side fault is the cause as soon as you touch the spa panel. It could be that one of those panel mounting screws has penetrated a hot or neutral wire in the house wall ??


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

It's a mystery, for sure. fiamen55, please let us know what you find out when the new electrician comes to check on this.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

I appreciate all the feedback. It is strange. I don't think the screws on the GFCI pierced any wires on the inside of the house there is nothing on that side of the wall in my bedroom. I'm hoping that all I need is a proper 4 wire feed to the exterior box and that will be it. Do any of think my GFCI box itself is faulty? The strange thing is that I can press the test button on the breaker and it does indeed trip and then I can reset it ok. I have no idea what's up I will keep you all posted on the final verdict


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

fiamen55 said:


> I appreciate all the feedback. It is strange. I don't think the screws on the GFCI pierced any wires on the inside of the house there is nothing on that side of the wall in my bedroom. I'm hoping that all I need is a proper 4 wire feed to the exterior box and that will be it. Do any of think my GFCI box itself is faulty? The strange thing is that I can press the test button on the breaker and it does indeed trip and then I can reset it ok. I have no idea what's up I will keep you all posted on the final verdict


Unfortunately you have the 3 wires needed that will operate the spa and the 4 wires needed from the spa disconnect to the spa control panel. The 4th wire missing is the equipment ground wire of the feeder to the spa panel from the main service panel.

That is not needed to operate the spa but is critical for overcurrent ground fault protection and human safety.

Did you say that this buzzing feeling has been present since the spa was first installed?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Do any of think my GFCI box itself is faulty?


I do not think so but anything is possible at this point.

Do one thing for me and be careful not to touch the metal on the panel. Turn off the 50 amp breaker at the main panel (should already be off). Test from the ground lug to the neutral bar in that spa disconnect.... points 1 and 2 in the image below. I want to make sure the voltage is not coming from another source than the spa feeder. If your not comfortable with this then wait for the electrician. If so when he gets there be sure to tell him that the metal panel has voltage on it.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Will do stubbie first thing in the AM and well see what happens on the meter. I never notied the buzzing feeling in the water until 2 days ago. I did on occation feel it at the exterior panel at times. Also a few years back during a heavy rain there would be a loud "wires arcing" sound" from my back yard. I always assumed it was from the neighbors yard. Makes me think now that the box or perhaps my tub was doing that. I have inspected all the wiring in and out and found no evidence of such. I'm wondering if rain on the exterior box is enough to cause an arc now that the whole box appers charged with 50 volts? The weird thing is that there is no pattern to the water being charged. One min it's charged then a few min later it goes away. WTF! I'm just hoping a new 4 wire main feeder is what I need. Stubbie in your photo where you have the #1 arrow there is an extra screw slot... should something have been connected there?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> Stubbie in your photo where you have the #1 arrow there is an extra screw slot... should something have been connected there?


Yep the required green insulated equipment ground wire that should have been ran with the feeder in the pvc conduit. In the event of a ground Fault there is no way for the 50 amp breaker to trip out in the main panel and de-energize the feeder. That is why this is so darn dangerous.

But this is not why the panel metal is energized.


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## jimmy21 (Jul 2, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> But this is not why the panel metal is energized.




i was just about to say that. Theres two problems here, and problem 1 (pump going bad?) is revealing problem 2 (no ground)


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

There are few code related issue which I can see.

Improper marking conductors by the NEC code it can not be remarked smaller than 16mm² {#6 awg } 

Second thing what the heck why I only see one grounding conductor there.{from the spa but not from the load centre ! }

Third the person whom did the installation is I will say pretty much out of the scale how they did it. { one word .,,, Merde !! }

And you mention 60 volts I have a feeling but sound like something is making inproper concants.

*DO NOT RUN THIS UNTIL IT IS REPAIRED PROPERLY!!*

Merci.
Marc


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## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Could his service neutral be out and current is returning via a higher resistance path? Gas or Water pipes.

Jamie


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

fiamen55 said:


> Will do stubbie first thing in the AM and well see what happens on the meter. I never notied the buzzing feeling in the water until 2 days ago. I did on occation feel it at the exterior panel at times. Also a few years back during a heavy rain there would be a loud "wires arcing" sound" from my back yard. I always assumed it was from the neighbors yard. Makes me think now that the box or perhaps my tub was doing that. I have inspected all the wiring in and out and found no evidence of such. I'm wondering if rain on the exterior box is enough to cause an arc now that the whole box appers charged with 50 volts? The weird thing is that there is no pattern to the water being charged. One min it's charged then a few min later it goes away


Were not going to know much till we determine the source of the voltage. 50 volts on the panel or water is not right but it also isn't line voltage of 120 or more volts. 

What is the foundation for the spa ...concrete, dirt, wood ...?


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok I tested the 2 "silver bar" things that Stubby labeled 1 & 2 in his photo and have no readings at all. I also tested the screws that hold the GFCI into the house to see if a wire was hit on the inside wall, and still no readings anywhere.

The spa sits on the following: dirt, 4" of compacted stone dust, then 4" concrete block.

Here is a photo of the Balboa panel inside the spa for review...anything in here to note?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The connections to the spa are correct. 

It appears that there isn't any voltage from another source. I noticed that with the disconnect pull out block is removed in one picture and in the picture where your taking your voltage readings it is installed. 

We can do some more trouble shooting if you want but you have an electrician coming so probably should wait for him to evaluate the problem.


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## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

Please let us know what the real electrician finds, and if it is a visible defect, and you have the opportunity, please take and post a picture...


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

I turned on the breaker at my house main panel and left the pull out block out on the external box and took readings all over the box and it was zero. I have a 240 supply at the L1 and L2 pull out conector. Once I put the block in I get the entire box reading 50v like in the previous photos. The elec should be here late this week and I'll post info and pics of what we find. thanks fellas for the input


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

fiamen55 said:


> I turned on the breaker at my house main panel and left the pull out block out on the external box and took readings all over the box and it was zero. I have a 240 supply at the L1 and L2 pull out conector. Once I put the block in I get the entire box reading 50v like in the previous photos. The elec should be here late this week and I'll post info and pics of what we find. thanks fellas for the input


Would you like to do one more test to see if it is the spa or the disconnect box?


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Let's go for it stubby....shoot


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok do things in this order

1.) Turn off 50 amp breaker
2.) Pull out the disconnect block
3.) Disconnect all four wires going to the spa. the neutral , both hots T1 and T2 on the contactor. Then the green wire connected to the grounding lug. Keep these wires seperated and capped if possible with a wirenut or tape don't let them touch anything in the disconnect panel.
4.) Put the disconnect block back in
5.) Turn on 50 amp breaker
6.) Make your tests only you do not have to use that metal on the ground. Just test the panel ground lug to the neutral bus like I had you do before. Be careful and don't touch the panel metal.

What we are doing is isolating the spa so it does not have any electrical connection with the disconnect box.


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## Lurlene (Sep 1, 2010)

Yes, that looks like where the missing ground cable should go. Flamen, thanks for the excellent pictures and exciting story. Please tell your electrician that your internet buds want to hear all the details on what he finds. I'd bet it's something failing in the hot tub water heater.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

*add to*

Stubby should i pull the wires you suggested at t he spa or at the external disconnect box?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd do it at the disconnect box, probably easier access but it doesn't really matter. I think it would be easier for you and safer to keep the wires from being energized all the way into the spa control by disconnecting at the gfci panel..

Also you might trip the gfci (push test button) while doing the test and see if the voltage goes away if the initial test shows the voltage to be present with the spa disconnected.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Well it looks like it's the spa stubby. Followed what you said and there is no voltage on the box. Im going to open the spa control panel and test the motors and heater by disconnecting each of those components one at a time to see if i can isolate it


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

That is good but be careful also do one more thing when you get the the spa wires connected back up. It's a good bet that the voltage is on the ground wire (green one). Disconnect that green grounding wire either at the spa control or at the disconnect grounding lug.. Power up the spa circuit. Test to see if the voltage is present on the gfci panel metal. I think it may not be with the green ground disconnected that goes to the spa.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Well here is the deal. Unplugged blower=box still charged
blower 2=box still cgarged
cireculator pump, ozoneator, heater element, and lights
Still power on the GFCI box. Also noted that even with all componets disconnected, my "balboa control box/brain" has a charge on it. Willing to bet that the entire control box has a short on the board somewhere.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

It is possible though unlikely that a fault might be between equipment ground and a wire inside the conduit. Disconnect the equipment ground (green wire) at the spa control and see if the voltage goes away on either the spa control metal or the gfci metal.

*Power off* before disconnecting


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

I disconnected the green at the spa control and noted the voltage on the spa control box but NOT on the GFCI disconnect. Ya think it's the control box that's leaking?


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Very likely but do one more thing leave the green ground disconnected at the gfci panel and also disconnect it at the spa control. If there is still voltage on the spa control (test the metal and the ground bar to the neutral terminal) with nothing operating in the spa then the problem is originating very likely at the spa somewhere.
Then pull the disconnect pullout block or turn the 50 amp breaker off and test continuity between spa control ground bar that the green wire was connected to and the neutral terminal on the spa control.

Should not have continuity


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

*IMPORTANT* : Do not forget when you get this fixed you have to install an equipment grounding conductor in the conduit from the main panel to the spa gfci disconnect panel. Since the original installer used a green insulated wire for the neutral just take that white tape off of it and use it for your equipment grounding conductor looks like it is #10 awg. Then go to the big box and get wire to be used for your neutral. It should be white insulated #6 awg copper thwn/thhn.

The electrician should see all these things so he may very well take care of it.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Stubby it rained late yesterday and is raining all day today here in RI so further testing is not happening. I Have a new elec coming out next Thursday to get this wiring fixed. I will post back to let everyone know what happened.


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## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

This is an interesting and educational post here. I do hope "flamen55" shares the final details with us. Thanks for all the info, David


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Thurman..I will post back once the wiring issue is corrected and a new GFCI box is hung. Last last night I was on the phone with a tech from Balboa Water Sytems. I sent him these photos and they are pretty confident there is an issue with the external GFCI. The tech didn't like the type external GFCI you see here. I should have had a "square-d 50 Amp GFCI" in my external box wired with the proper 4 lead main (see their diagram link below). That's what the new elec is going to be doing....so stay tuned


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Well they are probably just more familiar with doing the 50 amp gfci breaker as there really is no difference other than the contacter between the two.

The source of the voltage is the key and the odds are it is at the spa as you are able to remove the voltage from the gfci disconnect panel by disconnecting the green equipment ground coming from the spa. If it was the gfci disconnect .. isolating the spa ,the way we did earlier, would not have removed the voltage from the gfci disconnect. It did remove the voltage so it isn't your gfci disconnect.


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Elec here in the AM 9/23 for the re-wire.........stay tuned


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Well new box and wires installed.....FIXED THE PROBLEM:thumbup: See photos below of the new components. Thanks again for everyones input. Be safe


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

Looks like they just replaced the whole box & breaker setup ?


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Correct. New external box and breaker, square-d GFCI on the main panel and replaced my old 3 wire lead with a 4 wire lead.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

was any problem found other than that 3 vs. 4 wire feed or was the voltage problem basically attributable to the wire count?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

fiamen55 said:


> Well new box and wires installed.....FIXED THE PROBLEM:thumbup: See photos below of the new components. Thanks again for everyones input. Be safe


I am glad it work out good for ya that slove the issue now you can enjoying the spa again.

Speaking of SqD I never see the RCD breaker in HOM series in that fashion

That disconnect switch that is pretty common item I useally use them and that is a first time I ever see C-H disconnect switch use red handle on that.

but otherwise it look good did that electrician keep the netural and ground seperated at the disconnect switch ??

Merci.
Marc


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Nap...from what i understand from talking to them the original GFCI that I had was not working properly anyway, plus the wire count was wrong. they said the spa was never properly grounded as some have observed here in my previos photos.

French elec... Not sure what he inside of the box looks like. He did say he "bonded" a neutral and a "ground" I think?? I'll take the face plate off the box and post a pic of the wiring so you can see.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

fiamen55 said:


> Nap...from what i understand from talking to them the original GFCI that I had was not working properly anyway, plus the wire count was wrong. they said the spa was never properly grounded as some have observed here in my previos photos.
> 
> French elec... Not sure what he inside of the box looks like. He did say he "bonded" a neutral and a "ground" I think?? I'll take the face plate off the box and post a pic of the wiring so you can see.


Please do take a photo I want to make sure they done in correct way due you mention bonded that kinda give me willies I just don't like it until I see that photo to make sure it is legit.

Merci.
Marc


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## fiamen55 (Sep 15, 2010)

Here ya go.... Plus I have the Square-D in the main box in the basement Im sure you know what that looks like but let me know if you want to see that too.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

That look allright I have no issue with that set up and I genrally don't use split bolt that often anymore I use the Polairs connector or large bleu wirenut both will work just fine.

Merci.
Marc


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd be curious if the voltage returns with the new equipment ground disconnected. 

Maybe a potential difference existed due to the original missing equipment ground not bonding the spa panel to the service?


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