# Having roof replaced, need some advice.



## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Moisture guard is a great product.Depending on where your located I recommend valley's,rakelines,eaves,chimney's,(front,sides,back) also around pipes,vents,skylights,basically all roof penetrations.Also those trantions you speak of are pitch breaks.I recommend a layer of moisture guard in all pitch breaks.

A heavy duty architectural shingle will also add to the visual appearance to your property as well as providing you peace of mind knowing you have a solid roof system.

Ventilation is a very important and often overlooked issue pertaining to your roof system.

If you have functioning soffit vents I recommend a ridge vent.A soffit and RV combo is the best IMO.

Having a quality product is only part of your focus.Having all the best top of the line products are useless if your contractor of choice lacks the knowledge and responsibility making sure the materials are installed according to manufacture recommendations.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Roofmaster417 said:


> Moisture guard is a great product.Depending on where your located I recommend valley's,rakelines,eaves,chimney's,(front,sides,back) also around pipes,vents,skylights,basically all roof penetrations.Also those trantions you speak of are pitch breaks.I recommend a layer of moisture guard in all pitch breaks.
> 
> A heavy duty architectural shingle will also add to the visual appearance to your property as well as providing you peace of mind knowing you have a solid roof system.
> 
> ...


+1,000,000

This is about the best advice you can get.

Don't cheap out as it is always cheaper to do it right the first time.

Inspection and verfication of proper and *Passive* is key. Ice and water is cheap insurance in those areas that are more prone to leakage (valleys, eaves, roof to wall connections, pips, skylights, etc) and installation is just as critical as any other part of the process.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. It basically backs up what my buddy recommended.

I intend to get this roof done correctly. It's a very difficult roof, with many areas that need protection. The house has something like 28 corners where the foundation juts in and out. That makes lots of areas where roof sections meet. 

Also, I went with this contractor because they have done several for folks I know and they were recommended to me. I signed that if they got the insurance to agree to the damage claim, they could do the roof.

The other concern I have is the shingles. They are a certified GAF installer. So, I will be getting GAF shingles. I have seen some that love them and some that hate them, plus a lawsuit on the Timberline due to cracking. The Timberline shingle is the architectural shingle they use. So, should I be worried? What, if any, things should I put in the contract about this?


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## OldNBroken (Jun 11, 2008)

All mfrs have had their share of lawsuits. Depends on what the timeline is of the material in question really. 
Also shingle mfrs quality and reputation vary widely in different regions of the country. Around here GAF/Elk has always been a popular and quality product but guys in other parts of the country hate them. I have no clue their rep in your area. You need to ask the locals their opinion of them.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

OldNBroken said:


> All mfrs have had their share of lawsuits. Depends on what the timeline is of the material in question really.
> Also shingle mfrs quality and reputation vary widely in different regions of the country. Around here GAF/Elk has always been a popular and quality product but guys in other parts of the country hate them. I have no clue their rep in your area. You need to ask the locals their opinion of them.


That's an interesting point. I think they do pretty well around here. Several of my neighbors have them and they don't look like they have had any wear and tear after 20 yrs. My next door neighbors is 19, the one next to him is 23. Mine looked beat after 15 yrs and I have been limping it along for the last 7 yrs, but it's a standard builder grade 20 yr shingle. I have no idea who made it, but it sure as heck didn't hold up. 

My buddy, who is a contractor and building inspector, recommends them as well. He told me they work well in this area, are a little thicker and last longer than others. 

So, I guess I will go with those, get the moisture barrier put everywhere and add ridge vents. Roof should be good for years.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I am a bit confused. You say the roof is old and worn out, and has a history of leaks you repaired. Then you mention that you are filing a claim for hail damage. Did the hail damage have something to do with the leaks?


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## nbeck1 (Mar 15, 2012)

When putting a replacement roof back on and you're told you need more knee bracing and collar ties what are they talking about?


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I am a bit confused. You say the roof is old and worn out, and has a history of leaks you repaired. Then you mention that you are filing a claim for hail damage. Did the hail damage have something to do with the leaks?


Yes. I repaired two sections where water had made it through. They were where the builder didn't extend the extension all the way to the adjoining roof and left a 3" gap. The shingles sagged in those spots and water collected, leaked through. I also had some nail pops that leaked. But, after that storm, the grit began to run off and fill my gutters, plus I had tabs over that were sheared off during the storm. Leaks appeared in the garage, laundry, front foyer. That's why I called a contractor, I thought it was wear and tear. He showed me the damage, why it was leaking and both the insurance inspector and adjuster agreed. The first comment from the insurance inspector as he was getting up on the roof was "I see a ton of wind damage."


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 9, 2010)

Marty1Mc said:


> The first comment from the insurance inspector as he was getting up on the roof was "I see a ton of wind damage."


Now that is an exciting statement to read over,and over,over,over,over,over,over,over,over and over again.,

I have read that 10 times and will have a happy face as I close my laptop down.When I hear those words or anything remotley like those words I know it is going to be an EXCELLENT adjusters meeting. :laughing:

Real quick.,.,say it again. ))))))))))))))).,.,Just being silly but I really love to see a customer have those words echo in their minds.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Had an adjuster look at my roof after several homes in the neighborhood had roofs replaced for virtually nothing after a hail storm.........insurance paid for it all. He said, "Your roof damage is from simple neglect, but, because I like you, I'll give you enough to do the worst side." Wow, thanks for nothing. Got a check for $1700 which didn't even pay for the materials. Ugh.


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## PAHome (Feb 16, 2012)

Marty 

Good call going with a certified installer. In this case GAF offers a systems plus warranty for roofs that are installed by a certified installer. You should ask your contractor if he will register your roof with GAF. As long as you include 3 GAF products along with your GAF shingles you will qualify for a 50 non prorated warranty on any shingle defects.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

PAHome said:


> Marty
> 
> Good call going with a certified installer. In this case GAF offers a systems plus warranty for roofs that are installed by a certified installer. You should ask your contractor if he will register your roof with GAF. As long as you include 3 GAF products along with your GAF shingles you will qualify for a 50 non prorated warranty on any shingle defects.
> 
> ...


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## PAHome (Feb 16, 2012)

The System Plus Warranty by GAF will cover any shingles defect as long as it is installed by a GAF Certified contractor, you use 3 GAF products and their shingle and have the contractor register the warranty. After the roof is completed and the warranty is registered you will be getting a warranty certificate directly from GAF. It usually take about 2 weeks.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Update: I have the insurance finalized and met with the contractor. They say the estimate needs some work (re-flashing the sheds was not included) and a couple of other things, so they are going back to get all of that corrected. However, they say the estimate is sufficient and they can replace the roof.

I am also going for the upgrades needed to warranty the roof from GAF.

Here is the totals:

Total Roof = 41 sq. 
Total Cost = $10,863 

Additional items (out of pocket):

WeatherGaurd = $786 (524 ln ft @ $1.5/ft)
Ridge Vent = $416 (119 ln ft @ $3.5/ft)
Deductable = $1000
Timberline 30 yr = $1410 (Natural Shadow 47sq @ $30/Sq)
Total = $3612

I am sure there will be additional items. I didn't see the third GAF product listed on the estimate, so I need to go back on that. I am assuming they will use 15# Shingle Mate, but I need to make sure. I also don't know how much additional I should expect to pay if it is an upgrade to standard #15lb felt.

I also know I have some decking that needs replaced. I think it's 5/8" plywood and I don't want to use OSB, so that will be extra. I expect 5 to 10 sheets at most, 2-4 at a minimum. 

So, if I could ask a couple of additional questions:

1). Should I have additional ice shield added for the hip roof areas (22 sq ft)? 
2). Should I use some other decking than the 15# GAF Shingle-Mate?
If so, which product and how much per sq/ft should I expect to pay?
3). Is the Natural Shadow the product you would recommend? They told me they would install whatever I wanted, but the 40 yr is another $10/sq ft. ($500 isn't a big deal)

4). Are there any pipe vent caps that are made from silicone and not rubber? It seems kinda dumb to put on a roof for 50 yrs and the vent caps only last 20. 

5). Anything else you would suggest?

I really appreciate all of the feedback I have gotten, it has made this process much more understandable.

Marty


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

PAHome said:


> The System Plus Warranty by GAF will cover any shingles defect as long as it is installed by a GAF Certified contractor, you use 3 GAF products and their shingle and have the contractor register the warranty. After the roof is completed and the warranty is registered you will be getting a warranty certificate directly from GAF. It usually take about 2 weeks.
> 
> www.pa-homeimprovements.com
> PA Home Improvements Inc.
> ...


Incorrect. GAF does everything possible not to honor warranties. If they covered cracking, they wouldn't have so many problems on the east coast.

All someone needs to do is pay the fee to get certified. I've seen guys who couldn't even read the book get certified. What needs to happen is the roof needs to be properly installed by whoever is doing it.


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## PAHome (Feb 16, 2012)

Hopefully the links below will help you. 

As far as the pipe boots, they will not last as long as the roof. Like anything else in your home a roof needs regular maintenance to retain its optimal operating condition. 

GAF Warranty FAQ

GAF Timberline Series


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

Marty1Mc said:


> Update: I have the insurance finalized and met with the contractor. They say the estimate needs some work (re-flashing the sheds was not included) and a couple of other things, so they are going back to get all of that corrected. However, they say the estimate is sufficient and they can replace the roof.
> 
> I am also going for the upgrades needed to warranty the roof from GAF.
> 
> ...



Wowsers, I would recheck those numbers!!!!


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

MJW said:


> Wowsers, I would recheck those numbers!!!!


Didn't you know that doing the work for cost is the new rage....


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

MJW said:


> Wowsers, I would recheck those numbers!!!!


Care to elaborate?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Marty1Mc said:


> Care to elaborate?


I think he is inferring that those number are extremely low. 

At nearly $265 a square, that is very close to what most guys materials and labor only numbers would be.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Oh ok. I was told by the contractor that they charge $250 a sq for 25 yr, and $280 sq for 30 yr. I would expect it would be somewhat lower here due to the cost of living. That seems to be the prevailing rate around here.

My house here costs much less than my house in Md. I moved here 20 yrs ago from Md. I bought this house for about the same price, all brick, 2 car garage on 4 acres, 2500 sq ft. My house in Md was about 2100 sq ft on 1/3 acre and now sells for double what this one is worth.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

ParagonEx said:


> Incorrect. GAF does everything possible not to honor warranties. If they covered cracking, they wouldn't have so many problems on the east coast.
> 
> All someone needs to do is pay the fee to get certified. I've seen guys who couldn't even read the book get certified. What needs to happen is the roof needs to be properly installed by whoever is doing it.


I am not sure this is different from others. The guy next door has Certainteed and his are cracking at 19 yrs. He was told they would not replace them because there has been no damage as a result.


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## PAHome (Feb 16, 2012)

Any shingle company will try to find some excuse to not pay. They will say you only used our shingle but not our vent, starters or caps and that's why it failed. That is why you need to install a whole roof system from 1 manufacturer, do not mix and match materials doesn't matter which manufacturer. Although it would make sense to go with the largest manufacturer in America. Manufacturer warranty like the system plus by GAF only covers manufacturer defects so you have to make sure your contractor know what he is doing. I would check references of past jobs, the BBB and maybe online for reviews from other customers. You can verify they are GAF certified by using the link below.

GAF - Verify My Contractor


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

It feels like their is a GAF rep on here. Truthfully, unless you're getting a 5 Star CertainTeed warranty or a GAF Golden Pledge warranty, I wouldn't be making decisions based on warranties. 9 out of 10 roofs aren't installed correctly so unless the manufacturer covers in the installers workmanship, I wouldn't put a lot of a trust behind it.

Cracking at 19 years on what are most likely 20-25 year shingles is pretty good compared to 3-7 years for what are now GAF 50 year shingles. Either way, I am not here to promote one manufacturer over another. The most important part of any job is installation and for a guy to be able to do 41 sq for 11 grand is concerning.

It further shows this roofers lack of knowledge when he refers to shingles as 30 year, 40 year or 50 year. Now that it has been over 15 months since those changes took place, everyone should know they no longer make Timberlines in 30 year.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

ParagonEx said:


> It feels like their is a GAF rep on here. Truthfully, unless you're getting a 5 Star CertainTeed warranty or a GAF Golden Pledge warranty, I wouldn't be making decisions based on warranties. 9 out of 10 roofs aren't installed correctly so unless the manufacturer covers in the installers workmanship, I wouldn't put a lot of a trust behind it.
> 
> Cracking at 19 years on what are most likely 20-25 year shingles is pretty good compared to 3-7 years for what are now GAF 50 year shingles. Either way, I am not here to promote one manufacturer over another. The most important part of any job is installation and for a guy to be able to do 41 sq for 11 grand is concerning.
> 
> It further shows this roofers lack of knowledge when he refers to shingles as 30 year, 40 year or 50 year. Now that it has been over 15 months since those changes took place, everyone should know they no longer make Timberlines in 30 year.


First I really appreciate all of the feedback, even the negative. I want to ensure I am doing this right. That said, I have found lawsuits against everyone. So, I have no idea who is really better. I do know that contractors (one buddy and a couple of contractors I talked to) recommended GAF. 

I do ,however, find all of these warranties quite confusing. Can you explain the difference to qualify between the System Plus warranty and the Gold Pledge warranty? I did look at both, but don't know what has to be done to qualify for the Gold Pledge one. I see it covers all lifetime shingles, so Timberline Natural Shadow should be included. The warranty didn't lay out what is needed to qualify.

This makes my head spin. These warranties seem to be as good as a warranty on a bed. Unless the springs fall out the bottom, nothing is really covered.

It was me who said 30 yr shingles, the contractor said "We install Timberline Natural Shadow for those applications." I just refer to them as 30 yr since that is what they really are. It seems the 50 yr thing or lifetime is nothing more than a marketing spin. 

Are there common installation errors to watch for? I will be here the entire time and plan to watch.


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## roofguy (Feb 5, 2012)

I install weather watch on almost all my roofs. If you live in area where snow can pile up and have area where the sun does not melt the snow. then you need to ice and water shield those areas. It does noe cost that much more to ice and water the entire roof 

Check out my video on roofs <iframe width="560" height="315" src=<Company link removed> frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## PAHome (Feb 16, 2012)

To qualify for a system plus you need to use the GAF Materials and the contractor has to be Certified Installer. This warranty will only cover defects.

For a Golden Pledge Warranty you need to install GAF Materials and the contractor has to be Certified as Master Elite. This warranty will cover all defects as well as labor. GAF will send out a inspector to make sure the roof was done according to their specifications before they issue a warranty certificate.


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

roofguy said:


> I install weather watch on almost all my roofs. If you live in area where snow can pile up and have area where the sun does not melt the snow. then you need to ice and water shield those areas. It does noe cost that much more to ice and water the entire roof
> 
> Check out my video on roofs
> 
> ...



LOL!!!!! :whistling2::whistling2::no::no::no::no:


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## MJW (Feb 7, 2006)

PAHome said:


> To qualify for a system plus you need to use the GAF Materials and the contractor has to be Certified Installer. This warranty will only cover defects.
> 
> For a Golden Pledge Warranty you need to install GAF Materials and the contractor has to be Certified as Master Elite. This warranty will cover all defects as well as labor. GAF will send out a inspector to make sure the roof was done according to their specifications before they issue a warranty certificate.



I've never heard of certified installers. Just certified companies that paid their way.
Most of these contractors I see use installers who appear to be illiterate and homeless.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

So, if all of the negatives are correct, I am screwed no matter which way I go. The installers will do a crappy job, especially due to price. But, it doesn't matter, because the roof is toast in 3-7 yrs. Nobody is really certified, so that doesn't matter either since the company will walk away from any warranty anyway. 

I think the reality will probably land somewhere between Nirvana (lasting 50 yrs as described by the mfg) and the complete disaster being played out here.

I really understand the logic. I do car repair and won't let a pro mechanic touch my cars. Not one. I don't like what I see when they do repairs. Everyone cuts corners to make rate. However, the cars still run and people are happily oblivious to what I see is impending doom.

So, I will probably make the best of it. I will use the info here (both positive and negative) to minimize the errors in installation. I don't know of a single crew here that isn't comprised of imported labor. I have been watching roof installations for a few years to see who is doing them. Unions don't exist, so the pay scale is adjusted accordingly. I think that is a big difference between here and most of the northern areas as far as cost, coupled with the lower cost of living.

Does all of this mean I am at higher risk than having skilled workers installing a roof? Absolutely! But, there really isn't much I can do about it. I even checked the master elite installers and the rates were about the same. So, based on that, they are using the same labor as well. 

Once again, thanks for all of the opinions. It has been a real education for me.


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## Marty1Mc (Mar 19, 2011)

Another Update: My naivety continues to peel away. The contractor went back to the insurance company with their estimate, the insurance co. agreed with the total, contract is signed and work begins next week.

Here are the latest numbers...

Total Roof - $15126.97 (base roof, 25 yr shingles)

Upg - Architectural - $ 1230 ($30/sq x 41 sq)
Ice and Water shield - $ 786 (524 lin ft)
Ridge Vent - $ 430.50 (123 ft)

Total - $17573.47

Drywall repair - 707.44

Total - $18280.91

There will be additional charges for replacing rotted decking, I know I have at least 3 that are soft. That is $25/sheet of plywood installed. I am also having some interior drywall repaired in my foyer for an additional $707. I could do this, but just want the job done. This brings the total to just over $18280. My out of pocket with the known expenses at this point is around $3700.


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