# Told this much square footage means this size furnace



## REP (Jul 24, 2011)

Look,the simple truth is that your money is valuable to heating contractors.Its the reason they are in busuiness.Its how they feed their family,its very important.
If they won't do a manuel "J" and AND a manuel "D" then it must be that your money means nothing to them.They are too lazy to put in the effort to give you an honest quote.If they take short cuts giving you a quote then you can be sure they will take short cuts installing the unit like not even doing a manuel "D".
The other thing is that I was in this business for more than 30 years and whyen I see a 2700 sq ft house I think that a 100,000 furnace is probably too big.I guess I couldn't get a job at your plumbing house.
I don't know about you,but it would eat my shorts to pay an extra $20-$30 a month for heat if I didn't have to.Even worse knowing I would probably have to do that for the next 20 years.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

If your furnace keeps the house at the desired temp then its's not too small.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Marty S. said:


> If your furnace keeps the house at the desired temp then its's not too small.


It does keep the house at desired temp. I was actually surprised for first years winter of the gas bills for this house. 
Moved from a 1200 sq ft house and I was expecting the natural gas bill for this home to be a lot more. Figured bigger house bigger gas bill. But I recall $180 bills at old house and highest at new house has been $160. both houses had same number of gas appliances.


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## dosy777 (Feb 6, 2012)

Minus08 said:


> He immediately says your furnace is undersized you need at least 150000 BTU.


He is using the "law of averages" He has probably sold several thousand furnaces, and has seen it all.....that kind of experience is invaluable, never the less since he has never seen YOUR house, he should have _suggested _that possibly your current furnace may be under sized and asked permission to come out and perform a heat loss calculation to determine what size furnace you really need. At least thats how I would have handled that situation.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

The ones at the supply houses get paid $8-10 hr at a thankless job and 99% have no actual trade experience so beware.

Load Calculator


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Marty S. said:


> If your furnace keeps the house at the desired temp then its's not too small.


And if it runs almost continuously as indicated on your gas meter on a day that reaches your outside design temp which is +14F for my area.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Good chance you only need a 80,000 BTU 95%.

That plumbing guy has no idea what size you need. But probably gets a small commission on sales. And a bigger furnace gets him a bigger commission.

A load calc is not hard to do.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Yoyizit said:


> And if it runs almost continuously as indicated on your gas meter on a day that reaches your outside design temp which is +14F for my area.


I follow the first part where you say and if it runs almost continuously but then you lose me when you say as indicated on your gas meter on a day that reaches your outside design temp


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Was that sq footage including your basement also?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

So what is wrong with the current unit? Is it non-repairable, is the heat exchanger cracked, parts hard to come by?


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

Minus08 said:


> It does keep the house at desired temp. I was actually surprised for first years winter of the gas bills for this house.
> Moved from a 1200 sq ft house and I was expecting the natural gas bill for this home to be a lot more. Figured bigger house bigger gas bill. But I recall $180 bills at old house and highest at new house has been $160. both houses had same number of gas appliances.


Depends on the cost of service. The highest that my bill was this past Winter at the coldest point, was $112. Then again, I have a two stage unit, sealed all air leaks that I can get to, using a thermostat with differential and swing feature. Also the highest we bump the thermostat up to is 69. House stays very warm and furnace only cycles maybe at the most twice an hour. Some days not at all, if there is sunshine.

I would start looking at habits and maybe try another thermostat and seal air leaks, before jumping on the wagon for a new furnace. Also getting a blower door test done, and getting the house air tight, will mean that you will not need as large of a unit, for both the furnace & instead of a/c, go with a Heat Pump.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

plummen said:


> Was that sq footage including your basement also?


 
No the unfinished basement is about 1100 sqft and not included in the 2700. There are 4 6" takeoffs off the main trunk line for heating basement


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

gregzoll said:


> Depends on the cost of service. The highest that my bill was this past Winter at the coldest point, was $112. Then again, I have a two stage unit, sealed all air leaks that I can get to, using a thermostat with differential and swing feature. Also the highest we bump the thermostat up to is 69. House stays very warm and furnace only cycles maybe at the most twice an hour. Some days not at all, if there is sunshine.
> 
> I would start looking at habits and maybe try another thermostat and seal air leaks, before jumping on the wagon for a new furnace. Also getting a blower door test done, and getting the house air tight, will mean that you will not need as large of a unit, for both the furnace & instead of a/c, go with a Heat Pump.


my current furnace works have only had to replace hot surface ignitor since moved in. just always hear specials on radio about furnace sales and if the install price is right I might do it. I know how much a replacement furnace would cost if I were to purchase myself from Janitrol , you're right about cost of fuel which has not fluctuated much in the last two years from supplier. but still the consumption measured in MCF(thousdand cubic feet) has been less at bigger house thatn at the smaller one.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Minus08 said:


> I follow the first part where you say and if it runs almost continuously but then you lose me when you say as indicated on your gas meter on a day that reaches your outside design temp


Within a few percent I'd think that on the coldest day if your furnace runs continuously and keeps you warm it is correctly sized. Knowing your furnace input BTU/hr you can tell if you have continuous running from your gas meter readings and the heat value or heat of combustion for your gas.

With Outside Design Temperature, it only gets colder than this 5% or 1% of the time.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Salesperson from a local hvac company stopped over today. Measured all rooms, windows, trunk line, how many registers, how many return ducts. Guessed at type of insulation from age of house.

His chart came up with a 4 ton AC which is what I have now and with a 95% 90,000 BTU furnace. 

The quote was $8900 which included the furnace, 14 SEER A/C package, pad, thermostat, new line set, all plenum retrofit work, 10yr parts and labor, lifetime heat exchanger warranty, all permits, clean-up and haul away, 2 year free annual cleaning.

He did not write the brand of furnace and I'm waiting to hear back about that.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> Salesperson from a local hvac company stopped over today. Measured all rooms, windows, trunk line, how many registers, how many return ducts. Guessed at type of insulation from age of house.
> 
> His chart came up with a 4 ton AC which is what I have now and with a 95% 90,000 BTU furnace.
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Brand is unimportant, install is. All brands carry same warranty for the most part.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> Sounds good. Brand is unimportant, install is. All brands carry same warranty for the most part.


Sounds good??? Thats a hige markup on either parts or labor. I found out the the brand is Goodman. anyway I'm not trying to put his kids thru college. I found the an identical system for about $3000 for the furnace, condensing unit and evaporator coil at:

http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman_Gas_Furnace_Air_Conditioner_System_p/11881.htm 

so figure another $600 for incidentals like a pad, line set, refrigerant, thermostat. That comes out to a profit of over $5000. I think thats a lot.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Minus08 said:


> Sounds good??? Thats a hige markup on either parts or labor. I found out the the brand is Goodman. anyway I'm not trying to put his kids thru college. I found the an identical system for about $3000 for the furnace, condensing unit and evaporator coil at:
> 
> http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman_Gas_Furnace_Air_Conditioner_System_p/11881.htm
> 
> so figure another $600 for incidentals like a pad, line set, refrigerant, thermostat. That comes out to a profit of over $5000. I think thats a lot.


I'll say, and no duct work to boot. 

Did he pull up in a Benz?

Mark


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Jackofall1 said:


> I'll say, and no duct work to boot.
> 
> Did he pull up in a Benz?
> 
> Mark


No Mercedes. With an incoming quote that high I dont know how much theyll come down. Guess that bwhat happens when salespeople, installers, receptionist, owner have to get paid.

I dont fault them for asking a high price but like I said not tryin to put his kids thru college


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Minus08 said:


> Sounds good??? Thats a hige markup on either parts or labor. I found out the the brand is Goodman. anyway I'm not trying to put his kids thru college. I found the an identical system for about $3000 for the furnace, condensing unit and evaporator coil at:
> 
> http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman_Gas_Furnace_Air_Conditioner_System_p/11881.htm
> 
> so figure another $600 for incidentals like a pad, line set, refrigerant, thermostat. That comes out to a profit of over $5000. I think thats a lot.



Actually, only $2650.00 after taxes. And thats if he doesn't have to do any warrant work on it.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Jackofall1 said:


> I'll say, and no duct work to boot.
> 
> Did he pull up in a Benz?
> 
> Mark


I'll never get used to all price comments form OPs. We give advice for free and you'd think it would at least temper some of the more viscious remarks.

And what makes it worse is the wheels squeaking the most live in different parts of the country where the prices differ greatly.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> Sounds good??? Thats a hige markup on either parts or labor. I found out the the brand is Goodman. anyway I'm not trying to put his kids thru college. I found the an identical system for about $3000 for the furnace, condensing unit and evaporator coil at:
> 
> http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman_Gas_Furnace_Air_Conditioner_System_p/11881.htm
> 
> so figure another $600 for incidentals like a pad, line set, refrigerant, thermostat. That comes out to a profit of over $5000. I think thats a lot.


I dont know who you are, dont care either. I wasnt asking or caring of your opinion. You know nothing in my trade of quaulity as it relates to price.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Dood is lucky, I wouldnt get out of bed for that price.


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## Doc Holliday (Mar 12, 2011)

Ps, goodman started the warranty all else now follow. Again, dont care who you are, dont care to ever know.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> Sounds good??? Thats a hige markup on either parts or labor. I found out the the brand is Goodman. anyway I'm not trying to put his kids thru college. I found the an identical system for about $3000 for the furnace, condensing unit and evaporator coil at:
> 
> http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman_Gas_Furnace_Air_Conditioner_System_p/11881.htm
> 
> so figure another $600 for incidentals like a pad, line set, refrigerant, thermostat. That comes out to a profit of over $5000. I think thats a lot.



It doesn't matter what you can get the parts for, unless you're doing the job yourself. If you think he's overcharging, get some other quotes, or see if there is some wiggle room on the price. I've done jobs where the homeowner helped out for a reduction in price, but personally, I'd walk away if they mentioned that they can get the material for less than I'm charging, because that just shows that they have no clue about pricing and all the other costs involved in running a business, or the benefits of having a professionally installed product. You wouldn't go into a restaurant and say you could get your steak for less, would you? What is it that you do for a living???


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

hvac5646 said:


> I'll never get used to all price comments form OPs. We give advice for free and you'd think it would at least temper some of the more viscious remarks.
> 
> And what makes it worse is the wheels squeaking the most live in different parts of the country where the prices differ greatly.


And the inverse is true as well, I never get used to self proclaimed contractors defending pricing that is completely out of line with reality. To supply and install a system as described at a realistic margin is more like 7K not 9. 

Offering advice for free is just something we do for enjoyment at least that is what I get out of it.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Jackofall1 said:


> And the inverse is true as well, I never get used to self proclaimed contractors defending pricing that is completely out of line with reality. To supply and install a system as described at a realistic margin is more like 7K not 9.
> 
> Offering advice for free is just something we do for enjoyment at least that is what I get out of it.


I don't see where there was an accurate description of all of the work to be done. nor of how much material was being supplied to make all of the modifications.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

beenthere said:


> I don't see where there was an accurate description of all of the work to be done. nor of how much material was being supplied to make all of the modifications.


 
The quote was $8900 which included the furnace, 14 SEER A/C package, pad, thermostat, new line set, *all plenum retrofit work*, 10yr parts and labor, lifetime heat exchanger warranty, all permits, clean-up and haul away, 2 year free annual cleaning.

I may be wrong but this is what I got out of it.

Mark


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Jackofall1 said:


> The quote was $8900 which included the furnace, 14 SEER A/C package, pad, thermostat, new line set, *all plenum retrofit work*, 10yr parts and labor, lifetime heat exchanger warranty, all permits, clean-up and haul away, 2 year free annual cleaning.
> 
> I may be wrong but this is what I got out of it.
> 
> Mark


So how much material and labor is involved with the plenum/plenums retro fit?

10 year labor warranty is most likely being bought from Manufacturer, so that gets added into the price.

2 years free annual cleaning is really added into the price.

I see no where that the OP said how easy or hard it will be to run the new line set.

No indication if a new thermostat wire has to be ran.

No indication of the total amount of labor for the job.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

beenthere said:


> So how much material and labor is involved with the plenum/plenums retro fit?
> 
> 10 year labor warranty is most likely being bought from Manufacturer, so that gets added into the price.
> 
> ...


You are correct, there is no indication either way as we are not looking at the quote only reading what the OP has stated. 

Based on that what is your opinion? 

I still think that it is high, this is why I hate seeing pricing on here, it is always a controversial issue. 

Mark


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Sounds in line for many change outs that are upgrades.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

'Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge my words" Henry Ford at the opening of the Ford Foundry circa 1920.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Doc Holliday said:


> I dont know who you are, dont care either. I wasnt asking or caring of your opinion. You know nothing in my trade of quaulity as it relates to price.


I do not understand your comments above. I am not looking you know who I am, I do not lose sleep because you do not care that we dont know each other. I also am not upset that you are not asking or caring about my opinion. I put a post up here and appreciated the comments. If you do not want to comment then dont .


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

beenthere said:


> Actually, only $2650.00 after taxes.


do you mean sales taxes? 8% sales tax on 3600 is only 288


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## jamjr74 (Jan 25, 2012)

*My 2 cents!*

I am in the process of having my furnace replaced too and have had 3 quotes. Home is 1250-1300 sq ft and have been told I need a 60,000-80,000 btu furnace. Just had a heat load calc done and am awaiting results. By I have been quoted $3100-$4900 for furnace and $7000-$8500 for both furnace and a/c so I dont think your quoted price is off base. Get a couple more estimates and see where they fall. Good luck!


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

hvac5646 said:


> 'Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge my words" Henry Ford at the opening of the Ford Foundry circa 1920.


How cliche


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac benny said:


> You wouldn't go into a restaurant and say you could get your steak for less, would you? What is it that you do for a living???


No I wouldnt becuase paying someone $15 or $25 to cook a steak is not the same as paying someone $9000. If you done see the difference in comparison in your analogy then I dont know how to explain it. But I like your comments being an hvac person.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

You REALLY don't know the cost of being in a service business until you have actually been in one. My company would charge the same and for Lennox which is not bottom tier either. The extra warranty costs us $500 the furnace checks are worth $250 so you need to realize where the value lies. Until you have had to buy a $30,000 service van and stock it with $5-10,000 in inventory and we like to earn some interest on that stock too there are a dozen other expensive costs in running a business which someone (you) HAVE to pay. If you want Joe's heat em and cheatem to hack it in you can usually save up to $2000 but you get what you pay for. I don't mind people finding out the cost of equipment but at the end of the day either you DIY or pay Joe's or a quality contractor and nobody is going to give it to you at what you think it should be.:no::yes:

Those buy 1 get one free or el cheapo ads for furnaces are a bait and switch /creative advertising just like cars. Buy a Malibu for $12,000 get to the dealer and when you want AC, power steering, auto trans and some other features voila it is $26,000. With the furnace/ac pkgs you have to buy the most expensive highly marked up furnace and then they give you the cheapest budget ac, Enough profit in the high end furnace to cover the ac. want a better ac, you guessed it, pay more.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

beenthere said:


> So how much material and labor is involved with the plenum/plenums retro fit?
> 
> I see no where that the OP said how easy or hard it will be to run the new line set.
> 
> ...


I know all the above makes a difference. Put it this way. My basement is unfinished and basically a big square with the current furnace near the center. So easy access is a plus for my side. The salesperson did say I have an ideal set up.

The plenum work: Question: is evap coil case considered part of plenum? For my description I will say No. on current setup from top of evap coil case the plenum goes up about 2 feet then the two main trunk lines connect into it on opposing sides of the plenum. I found a photo on internet similar to my setup as far as how two trunk lines run into plenum.

To run a new line set would be pretty straightforward as the current one runs perpendicular to the joists for about 15 feet, then turns into a joist bay for 13 feet then out the rim joist.
Same for the PVC for the exhaust gases but a shorter run perpendicular to joists.

New thermostat wiring is not needed as there are enough wires in the existing.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

check my post above yours, it may help.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

yuri said:


> check my post above yours, it may help.


Hey I dont fault anyone trying to make top dollar on their sale and install. Great thing about this country is the government at least not yet is not mandating that Joes HVAC has to do my project.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> No I wouldnt becuase paying someone $15 or $25 to cook a steak is not the same as paying someone $9000. If you done see the difference in comparison in your analogy then I dont know how to explain it. But I like your comments being an hvac person.


Looks like I'll have to walk you through this one, as my analogy went over your head. Forget the price difference, it doesn't matter that a steak dinner is only $25 compared to $9000, that is completely irrelevant. Let's say you can get that steak for $5. Does that mean the restaurant is making a profit of $20? Of course not! They have other business expenses to pay out of that $20, such as taxes, rent, utilities, payroll, etc. just like an hvac business does. There is a ton of overhead involved in running an hvac company, and not a whole lot of profit at the end if the day.


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## joepierson (Oct 26, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> No Mercedes. With an incoming quote that high I dont know how much theyll come down. Guess that bwhat happens when salespeople, installers, receptionist, owner have to get paid.


Yes, that is exactly correct, they have high overhead, but are stable businesses. In low income neighborhoods, where people are grossing $20K/year (retired social security income for instance) none could afford that price. Those people get the weekend warrior type to do the job, usually an HVAC guy working on his own with a few non HVAC helpers. You get whatever the factory warrenty is, whatever furance they have in stock (usually overstocked items or last years models), no free service calls, but it's probably $800+cost to install for four hours work. It is a risk, but they have no choice. The extra money they save pays for a lot of future repairs though!


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac benny said:


> Forget the price difference, it doesn't matter that a steak dinner is only $25 compared to $9000, that is completely irrelevant.


Well how much is a fair profit one should make off their product seems to have become the issue here. I'm not going to argue a dinner out vs. the cost of a hvac install. There is a difference.



hvac benny said:


> There is a ton of overhead involved in running an hvac company,


:laughing:Aside from parts. I would have no problem paying 1 ton of dollar bills for the install.:laughing:


"My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools."

I will try the install myself.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

beenthere said:


> I don't see where there was an accurate description of all of the work to be done. nor of how much material was being supplied to make all of the modifications.


My basement is unfinished and basically a big square with the current furnace near the center. So easy access is a plus for my side. The salesperson did say I have an ideal set up.

The plenum work: Question: is evap coil case considered part of plenum? For my description I will say No. on current setup from top of evap coil case the plenum goes up about 2 feet then the two main trunk lines connect into it on opposing sides of the plenum. See post 40 for a similar picture of my setup.

To run a new line set would be pretty straightforward as the current one runs perpendicular to the joists for about 15 feet, then turns into a joist bay for 13 feet then out the rim joist.
Same for the PVC for the exhaust gases but a shorter run perpendicular to joists.

New thermostat wiring is not needed as there are enough wires in the existing.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> Well how much is a fair profit one should make off their product seems to have become the issue here. I'm not going to argue a dinner out vs. the cost of a hvac install. There is a difference.
> 
> :laughing:Aside from parts. I would have no problem paying 1 ton of dollar bills for the install.:laughing:
> 
> ...


1. You don't have even a basic understanding of the economics of business, let alone how much profit is to be made. Obviously there is a difference between a dinner out and an hvac install. The analogy is clearly lost on you. 

2. One ton of dollar bills is about $907000.00. 

3. Good luck doing a proper furnace and AC install with tv repair tools. Be sure to let us know how that works out.


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## Marty S. (Oct 31, 2009)

If you want to DIY go for it. Instruction manuals are very specific so follow the directions exactly. If installed and set up correctly odds are you won't have any problems . Get the permits before work and inspected after so the insurance company can't deny a claim if the house burns down later. When you get the permit ask which version of the international code books they use, purchase it from amazon and read the thing so you know what the rules are.

So far as pricing it is what it is. Your boss doesn't say well it only costs $5 a day in gas to get to work so you making a 4000% "profit" is out of line. Same thing with a business.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

Installing a furnace w/o sheet metal tools, pipe threader etc is not as easy as it looks. AC w/o torches, vacuum pump, micron gauge, nitrogen tank, gauges. superheat clamp and meter just to get started is another whole ball of wax. Don't imagine that stuff is used in the TV repair biz.:no:

Of course you could buy all that stuff and do work for your friends etc so who knows it may work out after all.:laughing::thumbsup:


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac benny said:


> 1. You don't have even a basic understanding of the economics of business, let alone how much profit is to be made. Obviously there is a difference between a dinner out and an hvac install. The analogy is clearly lost on you.
> 
> 2. One ton of dollar bills is about $907000.00.
> 
> 3. Good luck doing a proper furnace and AC install with tv repair tools. Be sure to let us know how that works out.


1. not my concern on the economics of Benny's HVAC business or Benny's overhead or Benny's vehicle insurance or Benny's liability insurance or Benny's tools or Benny's advertising, Bennys kickback to inspectors and what not. If I dont like Benny's price, Benny can peddle what I think is an excessive quote to someone else. Benny gets his price but not from me.

2. I meant 2,000 dollar bills...haha

3. Kidding on that. Didnt you ever see Fastimes at Ridgemont High. That was one of Spiccoli's quotes.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> 1. not my concern on the economics of Benny's HVAC business or Benny's overhead or Benny's vehicle insurance or Benny's liability insurance or Benny's tools. If I dont like Benny's price, Benny can peddle what I think is an excessive quote to someone else. Benny gets his price but not from me.



Then why are you on here complaining about it?


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac benny said:


> Then why are you on here complaining about it?


I was complaining. About what I feel is an exorbitant price quote for my situation.


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## hvac benny (Dec 29, 2009)

Minus08 said:


> I was complaining. About what I feel is an exorbitant price quote for my situation.


Well, it's not. You just don't understand, and probably never will.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> 1. not my concern on the economics of Benny's HVAC business or Benny's overhead or Benny's vehicle insurance or Benny's liability insurance or Benny's tools or Benny's advertising, *Bennys kickback to inspectors and what not. *



Now you are breaking forum rules and calling us crooks and frauds.

One thing you don't under stand is the pool of talent here does not get paid one iota. We do this because we want to. Some, for reasons that are deeper than than you could fathom.

You don't come here talking trash about members who are trying to help you and call them crooks.

If any body needs to be adjusted attitude wise it is you. I am beinging to think u are an HVAC troll from other PRO only site just to stir up crap.

Maybe you're Fat Eddy or someone from the Pro site. I have been told by old timers they used to brag in open forum how they punked the Pros here by posing as DIYs.

I think that is you


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac5646 said:


> [/b]
> Now you are breaking forum rules and calling us crooks and frauds.
> 
> One thing you don't under stand is the pool of talent here does not get paid one iota. We do this because we want to. Some, for reasons that are deeper than than you could fathom.
> ...


I didnt call anybody a crook or a fraud. Inspectors get caught in stings all the time, Just google the words plumbing inspector kickback.

And who the hey is fast eddie? 
I still feel the ac/furnace quote that was given for my situation was excessive. Period. You can't change my mind on that and I dont expect you to waste your time trying to.

Now I've got some Molsons calling my name. All have a good Sat night.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Minus (or -)

It sounds like you have made up your mind, so just go for it and live with it despite not really paying attention to the comments or suggestions.

You are the one looking for help or suggestions.

Dick


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> I didnt call anybody a crook or a fraud. Inspectors get caught in stings all the time, Just google the words plumbing inspector kickback.
> 
> And who the hey is fast eddie?
> I still feel the ac/furnace quote that was given for my situation was excessive. Period. You can't change my mind on that and I dont expect you to waste your time trying to.
> ...



It was Eddy or one of his friends. Can't fool a Clover leaf.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> Minus (or -)
> 
> not really paying attention to the comments or suggestions.


I'll keep it short. Paying attention and agreeing with the comments are two different requests.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Minus08 said:


> I didnt call anybody a crook or a fraud. Inspectors get caught in stings all the time, Just google the words plumbing inspector kickback.
> 
> And who the hey is fast eddie?
> I still feel the ac/furnace quote that was given for my situation was excessive. Period. You can't change my mind on that and I dont expect you to waste your time trying to.
> ...


Wow did you have to throw plumbing inspectors under the bus?
I might have to move to your town and get a job an electrical/hvac or plumbing inspector now since Ive got just a little experiance and lots of free time! :laughing:


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Minus08 said:


> do you mean sales taxes? 8% sales tax on 3600 is only 288


No, I mean after income tax. You would be surprised how much Uncle Sam takes. I even gave the company the benefit of the doubt, and allowed some extra deductions so they would keep more money in my other post.

What you may not understand, is once you(company/business) show a profit for the year, Uncle Sam nails you big time. And you can get to a point, that if you only made a small profit. After you pay those taxes, your broke, or have no operating capitol.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

beenthere said:


> No, I mean after income tax. You would be surprised how much Uncle Sam takes.
> What you may not understand, is once you(company/business) show a profit for the year, Uncle Sam nails you big time.


I'm not in charge of the tax structure in America. Can't help you guys on that one.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> I'm not in charge of the tax structure in America. Can't help you guys on that one.



I think the moderator has had enough of your rule breaking disrespectfull 'tude.

Be good or you will made to be gone.:thumbsup:


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

hvac5646 said:


> I think the moderator has had enough of your rule breaking disrespectfull 'tude.
> 
> Be good or you will made to be gone.:thumbsup:


 Sorry guys I cant see anything wrong with what he said about not being in charge of taxes in the country,somebody else brought it up and he just replied to it is all


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

I like this business too much not to care.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

I love the trades also thats why I get up most days and try to find something to entertain myself even after being retired 
If he thinks he can do the install himself more power to him,Ive never let my world/business hinge on 1 job


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Minus08 said:


> I'm not in charge of the tax structure in America. Can't help you guys on that one.


So now you know a small bit of why the price isn't as cheap as you thought it should be.

The old saying that it makes money to make money, should have a added line to it.

It takes money to make money, and after you make money, it takes money to pay the taxes on that money.


Your best bet is to get other estimates. You might find someone that works for basically labor only. Or is a sole proprietor.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac5646 said:


> I think the moderator has had enough of your rule breaking disrespectfull 'tude.


Stating that inspectors have taken bribes is not name calling it is a fact.

Stating I'm not in charge of the nation's tax structure is not disrespectful it is a fact.

For the record I was joking about doing the install myself. I could do the demo. Pretty good at tearing stuff down.


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## HVACDave (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe you should just buy the equipment yourself and then try and hire someone to install it for you. Then the risk of warranty, equipment sizing,bill collection and terms, customer satisfaction etc. isn"t thier problem. You would also be able to see exactly what you are paying for the labor. Depends how hungry the contractors are in your area.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> *Stating that inspectors have taken bribes is not name calling it is a fact.*
> .


Please be truthful. you sad Benny gave a kick back to the inspector:

Quote
1. not my concern on the economics of Benny's HVAC business or Benny's overhead or Benny's vehicle insurance or Benny's liability insurance or Benny's tools or Benny's advertising,* Bennys kickback to inspectors and what not. If I dont like Benny's price, Benny can peddle *what I think is an excessive quote to someone else. Benny gets his price but not from me.Quote.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac5646 you drew a conclusion. but the Benny I referred to is the fictional owner of the fictional company I referred to as *Benny's HVAC*. I believe there is a member of the DIY forum with a username *hvac benny*. Surely you can note the difference between *Benny's HVAC* and *hvac benny*.

by the way on post 39 the poster referred to Joe as heatem and cheatem. why no call out on that. the poster did say his company would charge the same. maybe thats a reason.

This topic has gotten off kilter kind off and it may be my fault. I did learn a lot from the fact that most if not all the persons who portray themselves as installers justified what I felt was an extremely high quote.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Minus08 said:


> I did learn a lot from the fact that most if not all the persons who portray themselves as installers justified what I felt was an extremely high quote.


And if you look back at any posts which challenge costs associated with HVAC install you will find they all end up the same way. As suggested I am sure with a bit of investigation you could find a capable soul willing to install equipment you purchased.

As for warranty, the money you save will in general pay for any repairs if needed. Last time I tried to use a warranty for a furnace repair the service call alone was going to add up to more than the motor was worth, so I bought the motor and replaced it myself.

Mark


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

Jackofall1 said:


> And if you look back at any posts which challenge costs associated with HVAC install you will find they all end up the same way.


You're right.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Think HVAC is bad look up some posts that deal with natural gas install, man you talk about reactionary.........

Mark


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

A couple people who have posted have made reference to not knowing the costs of running a hvac business. Thats fair. I don't know because I never ran one but I have operated a very small sole proprietorship and had to file a schedule C in which I had very minimal expenses. Now I'm not comparing my little college venture to someones livelyhood of a hvac business.

But if any of the three who talked about knowledge of running a hvac business would like to ballpark their estimated operating expenses I'd be all ears and maybe have a better understanding of the costs.

Obviously not looking for a detailed expense report but maybe something like--it costs me about $120,000 to run my business a year.


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## Jackofall1 (Dec 5, 2010)

As a point of discussion it would be interesting, but I doubt very much there will be any insight for that one, I am sure its a big variable especially in the last couple of years, and depending on size of the company, inventory, fabrication equipment etc. and would yeild little insight into your quote.

The best thing to do is get a couple of quotes, compare the equipment being provided and see what comes out of it. Given the ease of your install I would be interested in what comes out of this.

Mark


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Minus08 said:


> Obviously not looking for a detailed expense report but maybe something like--it costs me about $120,000 to run my business a year.


Several years ago when I was a GM for a company. Averaged annual gross was a tad over 1.4 mil, with an average after tax profit for the year that was always under 60,000.

As a Sole Proprietor, if you put 5,000 down on a new vehicle, it doesn't affect your taxes as far as it was already your money. However, when Incorporated, that 5,000 dollars is considered pure profit, and is taxed heavily. And you pay it that quarter.

A service van may carry between 15 and 40,000 bucks worth of parts.


While not a direct operating cost answer, you should be able to do the math, and see how much it cost to keep 7 guys working year round.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

It can be a tough way to make a living also due to the fact that the guy who did the "expensive" quote and everyone else may only sell 1 unit or pkg a week so it is not like he is making thousands of $$ a day in profit. All the hackers and Joes heat em and cheatems who use unlicensed/unskilled workers and apparently illegals as well drive the cost down until no one is really making any money. Its a dog eat dog world and the reason I never went into business for myself or would want to. I worked for a small private co and between the rubber cheques he got, bankruptcies not paying him more than 10 cents on a dollar etc etc it is a hard way to survive.


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## greenleafmech (Feb 19, 2012)

Not true at all. Next time, do yourself a favor and don't ask for an advise from a floor guy that works in a store. Chances are that he's repeating what he was told, and chances are what he was told it's 100% wrong!



Greenleaf Mechanical Services
www.greenleafheatingandcooling.com


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Several years ago when I was a GM for a company. Averaged annual gross was a tad over 1.4 mil, with an average after tax profit for the year that was always under 60,000.
> 
> As a Sole Proprietor, if you put 5,000 down on a new vehicle, it doesn't affect your taxes as far as it was already your money. However, when Incorporated, that 5,000 dollars is considered pure profit, and is taxed heavily. And you pay it that quarter.
> 
> ...


 I dont know who does your taxes but ive been incorporated for years,and if I put down $5000.00 on a vehicle I right it off as a business expense/loss not a profit


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Its not a loss when you buy the van. Its an asset. Added more value to company. Deduction is later in year.

Are you S, and do you have partners.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

s-corp with just myself.
I sold the utilitie contracting company which was a seperate corporation a couple years back to an employee,but hung on to the small seperate s-corp I still do small jobs to entertain myself under


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

plummen said:


> s-corp with just myself.
> I sold the utilitie contracting company which was a seperate corporation a couple years back to an employee,but hung on to the small seperate s-corp I still do small jobs to entertain myself under


Small is better sometimes. I'm Sole proprietor theses days. The headaches of keeping lots of people busy can wear on you.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

Yeah it took me many years and first 2 pacemakers to realize I was running a glorified day care service,seemed like employees /supply houses/gas stations/Ford /my favorite john dear dealer and my heroes at the Income .Reduction.Service were always making more than me! :laughing:
Life is much easier now,I dont make nearly as much as I used to but I dont have all the expenses and head aches anymore either .
I figure if I can get up and do what I want when I want Im doing ok ,after 30 years those young ambitious types can have the big jobs and the headaches that go with them :thumbsup:


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## Patrick Eubanks (Oct 6, 2011)

*HVAC business cost*

not counting the cost of insurance and vehicle expense, my operating cost are in the neighborhood of 20% of the cost of my quotes. Equipment cost make up about 60% of my cost, labor at about 20% of my cost and we hope to clear 8% profit after gas and vehicle insurance is paid.
That what your looking for?


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## zootjeff (Jul 11, 2007)

What is the state of this thread? 

Have you decided on what size of a furnace you are going to go with? What part of the country are you located in?

I found that my 80,000 BTU furnace is way oversized for my 1900 sq ft house..

Are you considering a heat pump too?

-Jeff


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

zootjeff said:


> What is the state of this thread?
> 
> Have you decided on what size of a furnace you are going to go with? What part of the country are you located in?
> 
> ...


Look at my Location on profile. Might give you a clue. THE OHIO STATE.

Not considering a heat pump.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Heat Pump in Ohio works well with the right supplemental heat.


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

hvac5646: Interesting picture but do not quite understand its meaning???


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## Minus08 (Oct 31, 2011)

The State of this thread is yesterday, the rep who came out and did the measure and quote last week, called and said they have an opening next week and could knock $700 off the price if I fill it.

Gonna see if they can throw in a hot H2O tank replacement.


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## hvac5646 (May 1, 2011)

Minus08 said:


> hvac5646: Interesting picture but do not quite understand its meaning???


Oh, That is just a pic of my Uncle Clover. He doesn't come on the board much these days.

He would have made an interesting addition to this thread.


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