# How to attach ledger with no rim joist



## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm replacing my front porch. The floor joists (perpendicular to foundation wall) extend all the way out to the edge of the stone foundation with *no rim joist*. Some of the joist cavities are filled with stone/mortar, others with wood (yes I have bug, mice, bat and squirrel problems). The old porch was attached to a ledger that was just nailed to the ends of the joists. The old ledger was partially rotten, so I removed it. *How do I attach a new ledger? * Can I lag bolt it to the joist ends and the sill plate? I know this isn't a good idea, but what other options do I have?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

You don’t want to lag into the ends of the joist.

Can you post some pictures?


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

Some pics.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Doesn’t that look just lovely.

It looks like to me the only purpose of the rock between the joist is to plug the hole.

I’d get rid of enough of the rock so you can block in between the joist, then continue the sheathing down to the bottom of the plate. Then you can lag a ledger to go through the sheathing into the blocks.

Be sure to get some tar paper or ice and water shield over the sheathing before you install the ledger.


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks. Lovely, I know. How should I attach the blocking so that it is strong enough to lag to? Also, do I really need to sheath it too?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Yes, your set up perfectly to sheet over all of it. The sheathing is what will hold it all together and give it strength.

What is the decking going to be?


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

4 inch PT T&G. I've thought about Fir or So. Yellow Pine, but I thought PT might hold up better. How should I attach the blocking?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Id use galvanized or deck screws. It would be easier than trying to hand nail the blocks. 

Id also use 1 ¼ - 1 ½” screws on the sheathing unless you have nail guns.

If your using T&G for the top be sure to install flashing that goes up behind the siding and over the decking to keep the water away from the ledger so your not repeating this in a couple years.


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks! Does the flashing necessarily have to go over the flooring? Could a Z shaped flashing be used... under the siding but over the ledger?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Z over the ledger is what you would typically do but when you said a T&G decking on the porch, I just didn’t want to see water collecting and standing in that corner.

Doing both would be better yet, as long as the wall side of the flashings go up behind the siding.


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

The plan... 
Remove the stone and mortar from the joist bays. 
Screw (or nail?) in blocking.
Replace the bottom course of sheathing.
Apply Ice and Water shield.
Lag a 2x8 ledger to the sheathing and blocking. 
Z-Flash behind siding and over ledger.
Hang porch joists from there.

After more thought... I'm starting to wonder if this process will provide a strong enough base to lag to. *Can someone reassure me?*


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

degnem said:


> The plan...
> Remove the stone and mortar from the joist bays.
> Screw (or nail?) in blocking.
> Replace the bottom course of sheathing.
> ...


Sounds like a good plan to me. :thumbup:

Try to get the flashing behind the building paper of the siding.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

You can always block with 4x. 

The point of the blocking in your case is so the load of the lags transfers to the blocks and down the plate and that wonderful foundation of yours.


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## degnem (Dec 8, 2009)

4x8s? Yikes! That could get costly and be no fun to cut. I'll stick with 2x.
Call me stupid... but how should I attach the blocking? Toe nail to joists? To Sill Plate? Both? And would you still suggest screws if I have a framing nailer?


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

You can nail them, the only reason I suggested screws is because its sometimes easier to do your precision toe nailing/screwing done without knocking the blocks in to far or splitting them out.

I wouldn’t build a house with screws but sometimes on little stuff like your doing, it’s just cleaner.


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## TrafficCopSmith (Dec 23, 2009)

kwikfishron said:


> Doesn’t that look just lovely.
> 
> It looks like to me the only purpose of the rock between the joist is to plug the hole.
> 
> ...


Agreed... you definitely want to make sure to get a watershield over the sheathing.


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

I know this is an old thread, but I have a similar situation. My question is: is there a better way to attach the blocking to the floor joists? Is there a Simpson connector/bracket/fastener, that could be used that would provide more strength to the blocking and therefore a sturdier attachment point for the ledger?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

AFM691 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I have a similar situation. My question is: is there a better way to attach the blocking to the floor joists? Is there a Simpson connector/bracket/fastener, that could be used that would provide more strength to the blocking and therefore a sturdier attachment point for the ledger?


Post some pictures of what you have.
Do you have a roof over the deck?
Will the new deck be a step down from the inside?


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

The existing deck is cantilevered from the 2nd story floor joists of the house, so there is no band joist. The cantilevers are actually sistered onto the floor joists of the house. I have already removed the decking and railing and I plan to cut off the cantilever joists flush with the wall, install new blocking between the joists and the wall plates, and install a ledger board to the blocking.. the old blocking that you can see in the picture on the left side is actually outside of the plane of the wall. So they will need to be taken out and replaced with blocking that sits on top of the wall plate. We are also replacing the siding on the house which will make it easy to properly install flashing for the new ledger. 

The roof of the house overhangs the deck by about 2 ft. The step down from the house to the old deck was about 1/2 in, but I would like to make it 2 inches for the new deck, which I should be able to do since the ledger will be 2x10 and I plan to use 2x8 deck joists. I don't have to worry about snow piling up since I'm in an area in California where it never snows.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Yes . cut them flush with the plywood and new blocking flush with the plywood works
The blocking should be double thick under the sides of the door to support the king and jack studs for the door.
You should add some tie backs too.








If you don't have access from below you can add the inside part from outside and add the ready rod with a nut on both sides of the bracket and pre drill the block and ledger to fit over the rod.
The blocking will stop the deck from falling with the lag bolts 
The tie back holds it in a quake.


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

Nealtw said:


> The blocking should be double thick under the sides of the door to support the king and jack studs for the door.


This makes a lot of sense. Previously, there actually was no blocking supporting the king and jack studs of the door because the blocking was outside of the plane of the wall. The 2nd floor subfloor and bottom plate were sagging as a result. I was blown away that the builders did not use proper support.

To install the blocking, would you recommend toe nailing them to the joists, or is there some other method?



Nealtw said:


> You should add some tie backs too.


Do you have a recommendation on how many? Eg. One for every 15ft of ledger?

Thanks again!!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

AFM691 said:


> This makes a lot of sense. Previously, there actually was no blocking supporting the king and jack studs of the door because the blocking was outside of the plane of the wall. The 2nd floor subfloor and bottom plate were sagging as a result. I was blown away that the builders did not use proper support.
> 
> To install the blocking, would you recommend toe nailing them to the joists, or is there some other method?
> 
> ...


California may have code for the tie backs but I would think one for ever 3 joists as you blocks are not as good as a rim joist.
Years ago it was normal to cantilever for a 3 or 4 ft deck with blocking so you may be looking at the second deck where some one knocked out the blocks and cut the joists off.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

AFM691 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I have a similar situation. My question is: is there a better way to attach the blocking to the floor joists? Is there a Simpson connector/bracket/fastener, that could be used that would provide more strength to the blocking and therefore a sturdier attachment point for the ledger?


Not exactly your question in regard to attaching blocking....

BUT Yes...Simson makes a connector that bolts/screws to the side of your floor joist (spacing between joists an eng call) .....with a threaded type rod (maybe allthread) then designed to actually come thru your ledger to tie to a decking joist.....but I would think it could also just tie in your ledger in less demanding structural circumsatnces.

It is designed for tall decks, maybe in earthquake or wind country, under demanding tie-in structural circumstances.


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## Randy Bush (Dec 9, 2020)

Nealtw said:


> Yes . cut them flush with the plywood and new blocking flush with the plywood works
> The blocking should be double thick under the sides of the door to support the king and jack studs for the door.
> You should add some tie backs too.
> View attachment 664946
> ...


This way is by far the most correct and long lasting solution


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

Just want to say thanks for the responses. They were extremely helpful.

Also want to share that in addition to the DTT2Z tie back that @Nealtw shared, I also found the following DTT1Z tie back which looks much easier to install in areas where I don't have access to the floor joists inside the house.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

AFM691 said:


> Just want to say thanks for the responses. They were extremely helpful.
> 
> Also want to share that in addition to the DTT2Z tie back that @Nealtw shared, I also found the following DTT1Z tie back which looks much easier to install in areas where I don't have access to the floor joists inside the house.


Consider the failure you are trying to prevent.


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

Yeah, I did consider that vulnerability. I'm thinking of using the DTT2Z in the areas where I have access to the floor joists from inside the house. 

On areas where I don't have access to the floor joist from inside the house, I will still use the DTT2Z, but fewer of them because they will be very tricky to install in those areas. I'll have to pre-attach the bracket and rod to the floor joist, drill a hole in the blocking and thread the rod through it, install the blocking, then drill a hole in the ledger for the rod and ensure that it all lines up and that it is also lined up with the deck joist to attach the other bracket to the rod. So I'd like to use fewer of those and supplement them with some of the DTT1Z. I have about 70 ft of ledger that I need to attach, so I think this will be tricky....


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

AFM691 said:


> Yeah, I did consider that vulnerability. I'm thinking of using the DTT2Z in the areas where I have access to the floor joists from inside the house.
> 
> On areas where I don't have access to the floor joist from inside the house, I will still use the DTT2Z, but fewer of them because they will be very tricky to install in those areas. I'll have to pre-attach the bracket and rod to the floor joist, drill a hole in the blocking and thread the rod through it, install the blocking, then drill a hole in the ledger for the rod and ensure that it all lines up and that it is also lined up with the deck joist to attach the other bracket to the rod. So I'd like to use fewer of those and supplement them with some of the DTT1Z. I have about 70 ft of ledger that I need to attach, so I think this will be tricky....


Yes it will be pain in the ass but well worth the effort If you have an air compressor, you might rent a strapshot gun that shoots hanger nails.
And yes some is better than non.


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

I do have a compressor, and that's a great suggestion! That would save me a ton of time.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

AFM691 said:


> I do have a compressor, and that's a great suggestion! That would save me a ton of time.


Or at least, with probably les expense and better placement/access, grap a palm nailer.


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## AFM691 (Sep 15, 2021)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Or at least, with probably les expense and better placement/access, grap a palm nailer.


Actually, I picked one up about a month ago. That's my new favorite tool!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

AFM691 said:


> Actually, I picked one up about a month ago. That's my new favorite tool!


That will work for 1 1/2 " hanger nails.


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