# Sistering studs - which nails?



## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

I'll be sistering 2x4 studs (original studs have a bit of termite damage). What size and length nails should I be using to toe nail the new studs to the top and bottom plates (plates are also 2x4, with bottom plate being pressure treated). I'll be using a hammer (no nailer, and probably not worth investing in a nailer for the 6-8 studs I'll have to sister), if that makes a difference.

Since I'll be sistering and will only have access to drive nails from one side, are 2 nails each at the top and bottom sufficient? Should I use the same nails to attach the new stud to the damaged stud (will find sturdy spots on the damaged stud)?


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

If you have access to the entire stud from top to bottom, why sister instead of just replacing? It's not clear what kind of access you have.


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

huesmann said:


> If you have access to the entire stud from top to bottom, why sister instead of just replacing? It's not clear what kind of access you have.


Good question. A couple of reasons.

1. I assume the sheathing is nailed into the studs. So if I remove the damaged studs, how would I secure the sheathing to the new studs?

2. In a couple of spots, the bottom plate (sil plate) has been damaged. So rather than remove a damaged stud and replace with a new stud that is then nailed to a damaged bottom plate, I figure I'll cut out a section of bottom plate adjacent to the damaged stud. Then replace that with a section of new bottom plate and secure the new stud to that (new stud also gets attached/sistered to damaged stud).

Access is OK. No fire breaks and the entire drywall wall has been removed. Only thing in the way is baseboard heating element (which only restricts access to the bottom plate). I'll post up a pic later.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

3" common nails but the treated lumber should get galvanized, you could get away with 3" deck screws and you would us the same to attach to the old stud in 3 or 4 places.


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> 3" common nails but the treated lumber should get galvanized, you could get away with 3" deck screws and you would us the same to attach to the old stud in 3 or 4 places.


OK, I'll get 3" long common nails, and the same, but galvanized for the ones going into the treated bottom plate. 

Any issues with using galvanized nails to toe nail into the top plate and to attach new stud to old stud? Asking because it would simplify the process to buy and use one kind of nail.

As for diameter, 8d?


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

jbrah said:


> OK, I'll get 3" long common nails, and the same, but galvanized for the ones going into the treated bottom plate.
> 
> Any issues with using galvanized nails to toe nail into the top plate and to attach new stud to old stud? Asking because it would simplify the process to buy and use one kind of nail.
> 
> As for diameter, 8d?



I don't know 8d, in Canada a common nail is a standard size with a head.


No problem using galvanized for all but you may find them to bend easier when you hammer them. 

And you are correct in saving what you can for the sheeting nailing if you have lost lots of the old you add a 2x2 to the side of the stud so you can screw to the sheeting from the inside.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Nealtw said:


> I don't know 8d, in Canada a common nail is a standard size with a head


You know better than that. Common is the diameter and length is penny (d). For sistering one should use 16d gunners, 10d commons or 16d sinkers.

https://www.constructioncanada.net/fastening-in-wood-frame-construction/

https://abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch3/sld057.htm[


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anti-wingnut said:


> You know better than that. Common is the diameter and length is penny (d). For sistering one should use 16d gunners, 10d commons or 16d sinkers.
> 
> https://www.constructioncanada.net/fastening-in-wood-frame-construction/
> 
> https://abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch3/sld057.htm[



Like I said in Canada we order common nails for construction. I have never had to think about diameter and can't imagine why there would be two diameter nails with heads for construction.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/interiors/q-a-box-sinker-and-cooler-nails_o


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anti-wingnut said:


> https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/interiors/q-a-box-sinker-and-cooler-nails_o


If you were going to nail a house together with nails and a hammer what nail would you use for most all framing and then most all sheeting?


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Me? 16d sinkers for the framing and the siding with 8d sinkers. If I get a gun, I’d use 12d gunners (3 1/4x.131 vinyl coated ) and sheath with 8 vinyls or 8 ss ring gin nails. 

If the inspector was a PITA, I’d go shopping for a 16d common nail gun.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Have you ever built a house without a nail gun? I have.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Have you ever built a house without a nail gun? I have.


Yes I have and in Canada we would order a box of 3" common and 2 1/2" common and I bet you would have the same nails at your house. Because they are the nails commonly used when you build a house. I just don't understand still using a system that came from before wire nails were invented.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Most gun nails don’t come as commons.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Most gun nails don’t come as commons.


 The question was about hand nails.
:wink2:


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Okay then, 3 1/2 x .161 nails since that’s what is on the plans.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Okay then, 3 1/2 x .161 nails since that’s what is on the plans.



See that does not make sense so me, we changed to 3" when they started dimensioning lumber to 1 1/2" thick


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> 3" common nails but the treated lumber should get galvanized, you could get away with 3" deck screws and you would us the same to attach to the old stud in 3 or 4 places.


Never use deck screws for structural applications such as what you are discussing.

Nealtw keeps telling folks to use deck screws... even though we've been over this numerous times.

See post #8 here: https://www.diychatroom.com/f19/what-type-screw-use-654649/


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> Never use deck screws for structural applications such as what you are discussing.
> 
> Nealtw keeps telling folks to use deck screws... even though we've been over this numerous times.
> 
> See post #8 here: https://www.diychatroom.com/f19/what-type-screw-use-654649/


Si if he was using screws because some are in a place hard to get to and he would be screwing into treated lumber you would say to use?


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

This is inside and dry treated lumber. Is there still need to use galvanized? I didn't think about it for indoors, although it's been some time since I stopped buying common nails. All I have in stock are 8-10-16 penny galvanized spirals. 



OP: if you have a drill, screws are lot easier to use, esp for few pieces. Also if you predrill. Drill just the toe holes and not the plates for best bite. Nails are for budget reason. Also toe nailing overhead is no fun esp if the nail bends half way in. Lumbers can be predrilled after cutting but before the install.


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## lenaitch (Feb 10, 2014)

Anti-wingnut said:


> You know better than that. Common is the diameter and length is penny (d). For sistering one should use 16d gunners, 10d commons or 16d sinkers.
> 
> https://www.constructioncanada.net/fastening-in-wood-frame-construction/
> 
> https://abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch3/sld057.htm[



It's not a measurement/classification system used up here. Then again, as a DIYer, I've never heard of gunners or sinkers either.


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Si if he was using screws because some are in a place hard to get to and he would be screwing into treated lumber you would say to use?


A structural screw that is coated for use in pressure treated wood. GRK makes them.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

HenryMac said:


> A structural screw that is coated for use in pressure treated wood. GRK makes them.


So a 3"deck screw?


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

carpdad said:


> OP: if you have a drill, screws are lot easier to use, esp for few pieces. Also if you predrill. Drill just the toe holes and not the plates for best bite. Nails are for budget reason. Also toe nailing overhead is no fun esp if the nail bends half way in. Lumbers can be predrilled after cutting but before the install.


What kind of screw would you use? My understanding is deck screws shear much easier than nails.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

jbrah said:


> What kind of screw would you use? My understanding is deck screws shear much easier than nails.


That is right, exactly what shear are we worried about.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

For putting 2 lumbers together you don't have any shear concerns. Shear is also when we are talking about the whole wall, or specific engineered local area such as a shear wall. But engineers would never specify nails or screws, it would step up to bolts. Even headers can be assembled with thinner pneumatic nails, just more used. 

My anecdotal reason would be that I broke off plenty of short drywall screws but never the deck screws. I've even used 3-4" screws that look like drywall screws. As long as you're thinking about the shear, if using screws, use 3 where 2 common nails would work. If you trust nails, predrill the stud. 



BTW, is the damage where the nails are? If not, you can face nail the sister and not worry about anchoring the new to old plates.


Again, shearing shown in lab conditions with a single screw or nail is valid but not really in real construction scales. In real situations, shear comes from forces that can move entire structure, not just a few studs.


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

Here's what I'm working with.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Do the ceiling joists land on this wall, you will want a temp wall for those. 

You make be into floor trouble too if the floor is wood. if you cut the studs beside the window replace them with blocks under the cuts as well as the sister. 

Take out as much crap as you can, any thing a little questionable that you have to leave in place, paint that with a copper treatment like for treated lumber. That is what our engineers call for, to deal with anything living in there.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

I think your scope of work is a lot bigger than you think


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Do the ceiling joists land on this wall


Yes.



Nealtw said:


> You make be into floor trouble too if the floor is wood.


No, it's just tile adhered to concrete.


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## Anti-wingnut (Oct 18, 2009)

Sure looks like your bottom plate is gone


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## HenryMac (Sep 12, 2018)

Guys you're steering this fella in the wrong direction.

You can't use deck screws for framing, they aren't for structural use.

Any good inspector will make you remove them. You must use structural fasteners.


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

Where either the drywall or siding is still attached to the damaged stud I would not use nails at all.


I would use 3" square drive construction screws to minimize any collateral damage.


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## woodyg2060 (Apr 7, 2017)

jbrah said:


> Here's what I'm working with.


You've got to cut out that rotted wood. It's a little tough from here to tell you exactly how to do it. Don't know if there's a floor above you, if that's a gable end etc?. You can cut out the bad part, splice in a new piece and sister full studs to repair. You can use a construction adhesive to glue the sheathing to the new studs. 

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

Also possible to use structural screws like the ones from Simpson Strong-Tie or to thru bolt the sister to the original stud. Nails are cheaper but if access is a problem then the more expensive fasteners will cost under $20.


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## jbrah (May 29, 2018)

Colbyt said:


> Where either the drywall or siding is still attached to the damaged stud I would not use nails at all.


Because the nails will push the damaged stud and potentially enlarge the holes used by existing fasteners securing the siding to the damaged studs?



Colbyt said:


> I would use 3" square drive construction screws to minimize any collateral damage.


So something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rite-3-in-Construction-Screw-1-lb-Box-3GCS1/204959258 

except in square drive - I guess square drive is easier to drive without camming out?

No need to pre-drill with construction screws?


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

jbrah said:


> Because the nails will push the damaged stud and potentially enlarge the holes used by existing fasteners securing the siding to the damaged studs?
> 
> So something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rite-3-in-Construction-Screw-1-lb-Box-3GCS1/204959258
> 
> ...



Yes or otherwise damage the siding.


Exactly like that but I buy them from a bulk box at a real harware store for 5.99 per pound.


Square drive is 10 time less strippable than Phillips. 



Sometimes in old hardened wood I predrill the old wood. Not need for it in new wood.


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