# DIY roof replacement questions



## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

FatAugie said:


> Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff?


Right. Think like water, don't give it a ledge to go in or under.



FatAugie said:


> ...starter strip along the rake edges? Or is Roof cement (thin application, 4" wide) to help seal the rake against wind better?


I wouldn't do either. In addition to the rest of the nailing, put one about 1-1/2" in from the edge. Unless your in a high wind area, the normal seal down will work fine. If you'd feel better, you could put a dot of cement on the tab to help hold it down.



FatAugie said:


> Would you run I&C along the rake? Or is that overkill? What about at the ridge?


Yes. Some use a half width I&W up the rake. Personally, I use full width. I wouldn't do the ridge. As long as you run your shingles and tar paper over the ridge, you won't have a problem.

Good luck...wish I could help!


----------



## Malcolm (Jun 7, 2007)

FatAugie said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> OK, going to do my own roof. Stop laughing.
> 
> ...



I am doing my own roof too. Let me tell you, it is 10 times more work than I expected. I have about 5 squares left on a 24 square job. I think GAF Timberline is their laminate line. You should use the sovereign 3 tabs for your starter and ridge caps. You could buy Timbertex for your ridges though, if you like that look. I ran ice and water at the eves. I ran it uner the drip edge. You should run all of you felt and ice and water under if you are going to cement. I went that route also. I used about a 6 in spread at the eves and rakes. I didn't waste any money using ice and water at the rakes only at the eves. Good luck


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

FatAugie said:


> GAF materials from start to finish. 4/12 gable roof with nothing except 3 stink vents to flash. Going with Timberline Ultra shingles, metric size (that's what they offer in this area, no choice). Been talking with Ed about proper ventilation, so that part is covered. I have a few questions.
> 
> 1. Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff? The instructions say so, but I thought I read a conflicting statement somewhere else, saying put above the I&W.
> 
> ...


Answers

1. The best way to install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge, which is different than the gable edge Drip Edge, aka ODE, is to install the Ice and Water shield first, with the bottom 2-4 inches going down onto the fascia boards behind the back side of the gutter. (It is easy to loosen the fasteners on about half the gutter and let it hang, but not twist, so you can install the I & W shield.

Now, install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge aluminum metal flashings. 

Now, take the roll of I & W shield, and with a sharp stanly straight blade knife, lay a 3"-4" board across the 3 foot wide roll at the very end and cut off enough 3 foot long sections which are now 3"-4" wide and cut very straight from using the board as a straight edge, and cover the top exposed portion of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal flashing.

Now, all of your bases are covered for any potential ice damming leak.

PS; Since you are taking the original 3 foot wide roll and extending about 4" down the fascia, make sure you still have enough material to provide the correct amount of coverage onto the decking as local codes and common sense requires. 

I suggest going a "MINIMUM" of 24 " past the location of the interior wall where the heated interior environment is located. Some codes state only 12" past the interior heated wall location, but I have still seen Ice Damming leaks occur further up the slope than just the minimum of 12". 

Now is the time to do it right. Don't be cheap now and regret it later.

2. Never use an architctural field shingle as the starter strip.

If you use 3-tab shingles, you must cut off the tabs very straight and then align the sealant strips toward the perimeter edge. Since you will have a lot of cutting to do with this, you may end up with some raggedy edges.

I strongly suggest purchasing the pre-cut 7" starter strip shingles to save on all of the cutting. The end result will be to save you a lot of time and not add much expense to the project and to have a cleaner and straighter looking appearance to the gable and eave edges where this will be seen.

If you are in a high wind area, then small dabs of roofing cement frem a caulking gun tube versus a full troweling of 4" or so wide roofing cement. If you are not in a high wind area and just want to be a little on the cautious side, then make sure you add additional nails to the exterior perimeter for both the starteer strip shingles and the actual field shingles.

3. I personally think that I & W shield along the gable edges is over kill, but the Grace brochure shows it as a desired location to include. If the ODE perimeter edge sheet metal is installed properly and you have the required 1/2" to 3/4" overhanging extension of the starter and field shingles, thenm I see no need for it along the gable edges.

But, since you will be doing the labor yourself, all it costs you is the price of the materials. It's your call.

No, not at the ridge.

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

RippySkippy said:


> Good luck...wish I could help!



HA! I wish you could too. I'd even make strip steaks on the grill and all the beer you could drink when you're done for the day.

Thanks for the info. We do have pretty good winds here so I think I need a little something extra at the edge.


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Answers
> 
> 1. The best way to install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge, which is different than the gable edge Drip Edge, aka ODE, is to install the Ice and Water shield first, with the bottom 2-4 inches going down onto the fascia boards behind the back side of the gutter. (It is easy to loosen the fasteners on about half the gutter and let it hang, but not twist, so you can install the I & W shield.


I don't have a gutter at the moment, but plan on installing them "someday". 
Can I install the gutter apron drip edge at a later time with no problems?



Ed the Roofer said:


> Now, install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge aluminum metal flashings.
> 
> Now, take the roll of I & W shield, and with a sharp stanly straight blade knife, lay a 3"-4" board across the 3 foot wide roll at the very end and cut off enough 3 foot long sections which are now 3"-4" wide and cut very straight from using the board as a straight edge, and cover the top exposed portion of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal flashing.
> 
> ...


That is the one thing that won't happen. I've spec'd for a top of the line project, I'm not going to try and save a buck now. The one challenge will be, with a 4 foot overhang on the front...I forsee many rolls being applied. No problem, what's another couple hundred to get it done right? I'm spending over 2K on materials, busting my butt to do it myself....to go cheap now would be silly.





Ed the Roofer said:


> 2. Never use an architectural field shingle as the starter strip.
> 
> If you use 3-tab shingles, you must cut off the tabs very straight and then align the sealant strips toward the perimeter edge. Since you will have a lot of cutting to do with this, you may end up with some raggedy edges.
> 
> ...


Actually, I was thinking first to use the GAF rolls of starter strip, then I was thinking of using the extra architectural shingles for the starter, now I'm leaning back to using the rolls.

I bought probably 3 square extra to make sure I had enough to complete the job. This way, I'm not on the roof trying to figure out how I can get to the supply yard for the extra bundle I'm missing to finish the job. Also, I plan on keeping a spare bundle in the garage for any repairs that may need to take place. This way, I have the correct color match. The yard said they'd credit any bundles returned so it seems like a no-brainer to over order.




Ed the Roofer said:


> 3. I personally think that I & W shield along the gable edges is over kill, but the Grace brochure shows it as a desired location to include. If the ODE perimeter edge sheet metal is installed properly and you have the required 1/2" to 3/4" overhanging extension of the starter and field shingles, then I see no need for it along the gable edges.
> 
> But, since you will be doing the labor yourself, all it costs you is the price of the materials. It's your call.
> 
> ...


Once again, thanks for the info.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

FatAugie said:


> 1. I don't have a gutter at the moment, but plan on installing them "someday".
> Can I install the gutter apron drip edge at a later time with no problems?
> 
> 2. Actually, I was thinking first to use the GAF rolls of starter strip, then I was thinking of using the extra architectural shingles for the starter, now I'm leaning back to using the rolls.


1. The Guter Apron sheet metal drip edge metal would be a real pain in the azz to install after the shingle are already in place. You need to nail the top portion of the sheet metal, which would require the lifting up and bending backwards of the starter shingles and the field architectural shingles.

The G.A. only costs about .42 cents to .50 cents per foot, so install it as I suggested with the Ice and Water Shield under it and stripped in over the top edge.

2. The choice is yours, but on the starter "ROLLS" I have used in the past, there was a minor tendency for them to get wrinkles or a buckled appearance to them while rolling them out. I much more prefer the 7" starter strip shingles for the proper starter material on a new roofing installation.

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

1. Ok, sorry for being dense, but instead of the drip edge? Or in addition to it?


2. Got it. Thanks!


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

It might just be a difference in semantics, but the Gutter Apron is a drip edge sheet metal flashing specifically made for the eave edges of a home.

The bend is at a slight angle higher than a 90 degree bend to accomodate the pitch of the roof.

A regular T-style or ODE, (Overhanging Drip Edge), and it goes by other names as well, is a piece with about a 1 3/4" leg going down the fascia with a kick-out bend at the bottom. The bend is exactly a 90 degee, and the top has about a 3/8" tightly crimped edge which overhangs past the fascia board providing support for the newly installed shingles which overhang over the gable edge of the home.

Ed


----------



## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Right on, Ed! 

I despise seeing an ODE on the gutter edge. Makes my skin crawl.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I immediately think, jack-leg gypsy contractor or ill advised home owner every time I see the ODE at the eave edge.

Plus, the Gutter Apron extends down about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch farther down for a better seal into an intended gutter trough.

Ed


----------



## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

If the roof is a 4/12 pitch it is considerd to be low slope and should have full coverage of Ice&water shield on the whole thing. Starters on the rake yes.



RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Jim,

The NRCA defines a steep slope roof as one that is greater than a 3/12 pitch.

I disagree that a 4/12 would require 100 % coverage with Ice and Water Shield membrane. I would use it judiciously along all of the gutter or eave edges though, ensuring that the membrane gets installed to a point of at least 24" past the heated interior wall dividing line.

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

As it turns out, on the front of the house 24" into the warm area is almost half the roof anyway.

Thanks for the gutter edging info. Until now, I thought drip edge (ODE) was for any edge other than the ridge, I didn't even know gutter edge existed. I'm embarrassed I am that naive about it.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Don't be.

At least 20-25% of all roofs that I inspect for an estimate either contain no Gutter Apron drip edge flashing or have the incorrectly instlled ODE drip edge flashing installed instead.

As Aaron stated previously, it makes my skin crawl.  

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

OK, just to beat this horse a little more....if I install Smart Vent, they call for the product to be even with the gutter apron. Then, placing the I&W over the top of that. 

Now, I can't fold the I&W over onto the fascia since that will block the vents. 

Should I run a strip under the smart vent?
Should I sandwich the Smart Vent, a layer under and a layer over?
Sorry, but these questions aren't answered in the application instructions very well. It seems adding I&W over the top to be somewhat dumb. Thinking like water, I would think that would be an easy place to crawl up...the space between the smart vent and the roof deck. Having the I&W fold down onto the fascia would make a nice seal to prevent that.

Thanks

Tony


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The fold over the fascia behind a gutter that is installed is preventative medicine for the gutter freezing and possibly backing up.

The Ice and Water Shield on the top of the Smart Vent is for the protection against how ice dams occur and back up under the shingle courses upon being blocked by the solid block of frozen ice located over the cooler soffit overhangs but not being frozen over the heated interior portions of the home.

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

OK, so how do you install the smart vent, I&W and the gutter apron all together?

I would do it this way based on a blending of what I've heard so far:
I&W strip from just below the 1" smart vent opening leaving a 2" overhang which gets folded back onto fascia
gutter apron
3" strip sealing the gutter apron top edge to the I&W below
smart vent
I&W on top of smart vent and as would normally be run to at least 24" inside the heated wall
Does that sound proper?

One final thing, since the smart vent is installed flush, I assume I overhang the shingles as recommended just as if the smart vent was part of the sheathing...in other words, like it was not even there. Is that correct?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Everything you stated is on the high end of being correct.

If you are in a severe winter ice-damming climate, then go through the additional stripping in measures you listed for the Ice and Water Shield specifications regarding the fascia overhang and then stripping in the gutter apron drip edge.

Ues the Smart Vent gets installed flush to the eave edge and the shingle should have their proper amount of suggested overhang provided for when you install the 1st course of shingles.

Ed


----------



## FatAugie (Aug 2, 2007)

Outstanding, thanks Ed!


----------



## gshock (May 30, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I immediately think, jack-leg gypsy contractor or ill advised home owner every time I see the ODE at the eave edge.
> 
> Plus, the Gutter Apron extends down about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch farther down for a better seal into an intended gutter trough.
> 
> Ed


Ed, 
Thanks for clarifying this for me. I've seen a lot of roofs with ODE installed on the eaves. I'm not a roofer, and I don't plan on doing my own roof anytime soon. I did a Google search and found this. Is this what you're saying is the WRONG place for ODE? Just trying to be an educated consumer. Thanks.
http://www.amerimax.com/catalog/pdfs/page_23-26.pdf​


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Although many people, some roofing contractors included, use the types of ODE you linked to in that catalogue, the inherent problem with any metal to be used along the eave edge of a sloped roof transitions, is that the ODE metals depicted are all bent at a 90* bend at the fascia to decking transition point.

The true Gutter Apron drip edge flashing has a slight angled bend already pre-formed in the sheet metal flashing which enables both the fascia covering and the decking covering portions to lie flat and fit snuggly to those two structures.

If you were to install a sheet metal with a pre-formed 90* bend along the same location, it may seem as if it will fit and work, but the natural tendency of the tension of the sheet metal will be to try to remain at the pre-formed 90* angle. The top portion of the ODE will attempt to lift up creating a slight hollow gap under thesheet metral and the decking/fascia board along the eave edge. This can be compensated for by installing additional nails and making sure the nails are as close to the fascia board as possible, but why go through this extra work to fix something that would not need to be fixed if you had just chosen the proper style of sheet metal edging in the first place?

Ed


----------



## gshock (May 30, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> ...why go througf this extra work to fix something that would not need to be fixed if you had just chosen the proper style of sheet metal edging in the first place?
> 
> eD


Agreed. I also found a link that shows the gutter apron you described earlier. This makes perfect sense. I've seen guys take the ODE and bend it to fit the pitch of the roof where it covers the fascia. But if not bent exactly right, it looks sloppy because it's not flush to the fascia. Thanks for the clarification, Ed. Much appreciated.


----------

