# Renovating in-laws' kitchen



## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

*Renovating in-laws' kitchen -- criticism please!*

Hello,

I'm about to embark on a kitchen reno for my mother in law. I would appreciate some expert advice on the proposed layout. The home was built in the early 60's. Currently, the space is not very functional, and has no room for a built-in dishwasher. There is a "breakfast nook" that is about to be converted into a new home for the refrigerator. 

Without further ado, please see attached photos. Ignore the cabinet in the middle of the fridge, please. Ikea software is very buggy.

The stove will not be relocated (for many reasons -- moving the vent for the hood fan, moving electrical, and having to cut new holes in the exterior of the home). The sink will not be relocated (it should rightfully belong under the window). The fridge is being relocated (currently sits where the dishwasher is planned to go).


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## Mop in Hand (Feb 5, 2009)

I would reconsider moving the stove. Put dishwasher to the right of the sink. Remove the tall cabinet next to the dishwasher. Put the stove on the wall where the proposed dw is at.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

Mop in Hand said:


> I would reconsider moving the stove. Put dishwasher to the right of the sink. Remove the tall cabinet next to the dishwasher. Put the stove on the wall where the proposed dw is at.


This will involve many, many changes. What is the reasoning for this?


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## CookeCarpentry (Oct 17, 2009)

Dishwasher is fed from the sink supply line and drains into the sinks drain. The distance you are proposing to locate the dishwasher from the sink is FAR. You will have multiple plumbing issues (not to mention possible codes in your area) that will come in to play to do this.


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

Assuming a mechanical air gap (in sink) is not required. Does anyone know what code would be violated if the DW was discharged to a standpipe in the basement as long as you could leave a loop in the DW discharge hose higher than the water level of the DW and still reach the standpipe. Certainly the standpipe is high enough off the basement floor. Does the stand pipe need to be higher than the water level in the DW?

The hot water line to the DW should not pose any problem.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

Ooh, very good point. The dishwasher is closer to the vent stack than the sink is, and the drain would be directly underneath the sink. How else can I go about this? What about roughing in a wall-drain like the ones that are used for washing machines?


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

You could put it in the stud bay where the DW but be sure it meets code for your area.


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## Mop in Hand (Feb 5, 2009)

Fingers said:


> This will involve many, many changes. What is the reasoning for this?


 Function and convenience, mostly, The proposed location of the stove will not provide a good work station without counter top on both sides.(not sure if I would like the in-laws cussing me out every time they cooked) Check the code in your area and see if a recirculating fan would work, if the stove is electric rather than gas it's a simple move. If it's gas I would move it anyway and duct it outside. Cutting a new hole in the outside is not that big of chore. I am also not a big fan of the refer location. A side by side refer will not work well, not enough room to open the doors fully. What can I say, the OP asked for criticism.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

Mop in Hand said:


> Function and convenience, mostly, The proposed location of the stove will not provide a good work station without counter top on both sides.(not sure if I would like the in-laws cussing me out every time they cooked) Check the code in your area and see if a recirculating fan would work, if the stove is electric rather than gas it's a simple move. If it's gas I would move it anyway and duct it outside. Cutting a new hole in the outside is not that big of chore. I am also not a big fan of the refer location. A side by side refer will not work well, not enough room to open the doors fully. What can I say, the OP asked for criticism.


All excellent points. While very valid, its outside of what I want to undertake for this project. I agree a stovetop should have counters on either side. That said, there are other considerations -- the hardwood flooring does not continue under the cabinets, and I dont want to replace it. I won't be able to find matching vinyl siding, so I wont be able to patch the hole from moving the vent. Charcoal filtered vents, although compliant with code, are not suitable as she wants an OTR microwave. The wiring to the hood fan already exists, so this is one less circuit I have to run and one less wall I have to break open. The easiest part of moving the stove will be moving the 220 outlet!

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate and agree with everything you're saying!

Here is the current layout.


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## Mop in Hand (Feb 5, 2009)

Most, if not all OTR mircowaves have adjustable fans that convert to recircluting. Depending on the size of the OTR, you may have to run a new circut anyway. My best guess is the fan over the present stove runs off the lighting circut.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

There's still nothing i can do about the hardwood floor not continuing under the cabinets. There's no way to match it as it is 20 years old.


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

Fingers,

I am not following your reasoning regarding the floor. The range will cover the floor nearly as well as a cabinet and should not pose a problem if that is what you are concerned about. Most of the OTR Microwaves have carbon filters that allow you to by pass the outside vent. I prefer venting to the outside but sometimes it is not practical.

As Mop in Hand says above, you may need to run a 20A circuit for the OTR but also the existing hole for the vent may not match up anyway. So be prepared to do a little work on the outside of the house. There are ways to deal with moving or removing the existing vent even if you can not match the siding.

A couple of suggestions - put a larger (or double) pantry cabinet next to the fridge and use a 24" deep cabinet above the fridge. Step the cabinet above the fridge out 6"-8" The counter next to the fridge will not make a good work spacewill and will only collect crap and you will occasionally find things that should be refrigerated sitting there going bad. Trust me I know this from experience.

It looks like you are going all the way to the ceiling with the new cabinets which is a great way to do it since that is all wasted space anyway. Just be sure not to start them tight up against the ceiling. Leave enough room to get them level side to side and front to back.

Before you start installing the cabinets clean the walls and ceiling properly (tsp, hot water and rinse well) to prep for painting. I would also apply a good primer, ceiling paint and first coat of wall paint. This saves damage to the cabinets and cuts the clean/paint time significantly. You will probably save an entire day.

Rege


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Fingers,
Before you do any more design work I would recommend you do some research on the "work triangle". This is a basic kitchen design principle which shows the relationship between the layout of the kitchen and it's functionality with regards to real world applications. 

The dishwasher should be positioned next to the sink. This will keep the plumbing simple and is a matter of common sense as far as functionality goes. Would you want to walk dirty and or wet dishes from the sink across the kitchen to the dishwasher? It is neither convenient, economical, or safe to do so.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

RegeSullivan said:


> Fingers,
> 
> I am not following your reasoning regarding the floor. The range will cover the floor nearly as well as a cabinet and should not pose a problem if that is what you are concerned about. Most of the OTR Microwaves have carbon filters that allow you to by pass the outside vent. I prefer venting to the outside but sometimes it is not practical.


There's no way that the range will cover a huge gap in the floor (i have hardwood in my current house and the flooring is very much visible around the range), but I will nonetheless try when I order the cabinets (I will be able to move them around and see what works best)

Thanks!


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

ARI001 said:


> Fingers,
> Before you do any more design work I would recommend you do some research on the "work triangle". This is a basic kitchen design principle which shows the relationship between the layout of the kitchen and it's functionality with regards to real world applications.
> 
> The dishwasher should be positioned next to the sink. This will keep the plumbing simple and is a matter of common sense as far as functionality goes. Would you want to walk dirty and or wet dishes from the sink across the kitchen to the dishwasher? It is neither convenient, economical, or safe to do so.


Maybe its hard to grasp the scale of the kitchen, but it's a small space. With arms outstretched standing in the middle of the kitchen, I can touch both the fridge and the range.

If you look at this photo: http://www.diychatroom.com/attachments/f15/14346d1256230691t-renovating-laws-kitchen-img00026.jpg imagine the dishwasher being where the fridge is now. With the DW open, you wouldn't even have to budge to put the dishes into it if you were standing in front of the sink.

With the flooring gaps, and the current cutout for the range hood, I do not want to move the range anywhere.

Also I just thought of something -- there would be no way to vent it outside if I moved the range away from the exterior wall. I dont have the ceiling height to make a bulkhead to box in the vent, and the upper cabinets are 39". I dont want to sacrifice cabinet height for this.


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

Your range is electric and does not require venting. Most ranges these days are not vented to the exterior and the range hoods simply pull the air through a filter and recirculate it. The flooring in the picture looks to run far enough back where you should not have any issues. Worse case scenario you have to try and match a few planks up which should be relatively easy to accomplish.

Again research the work triangle before continuing your design for the kitchen. This will give you a better understanding of how to lay out the kitchen. If you are going to remodel the kitchen then invest the time and money to do it correctly instead of doing a halfway job of it. Sometimes doing the job correctly means spending more money and doing things you would prefer not to do. If the budget is not there to do those things that need to be done then the best recourse is to wait until the funds are available to do the job correctly.


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## Mop in Hand (Feb 5, 2009)

Fingers said:


> (I will be able to move them around and see what works best)
> 
> Thanks!


 This is not the best approach, please take some advice from someone here. Ordering cabinets now and figuring it out later is just not the way to go.


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

This is not something I'm willing to entertain. I appreciate your advice, and I recognize the deficiency in the design, but neither the homeowner nor I are concerned about the stove placement. Thusly, it is more effort than either of us are willing to undertake to move the stove. It is compliant with code, there's no pressing need to move it, so it won't be moving. I do not wish to use a recirculating fan, as I find this to be a much more "ghetto" approach than leaving the stove against the wall. I do not wish to downgrade to 33" uppers so that I could add a bulkhead for the hood fan. I do not wish to move it to a location missing flooring either, as this is equally poor workmanship-wise. I do not wish to replace or in any way try to match an aged floor. 

I've researched the work triangle and proper kitchen design. I recognize this as a defficiency, but it is one that is deemed acceptable by both the homeowner and I. 

I would have no problem moving it when it is reasonable to do so. In this case, it isnt, and in the interest of moving on to other concerns -- the stove will not be moving. 

----

Cabinets are coming out to approx $3300 from IKEA. Not bad :shrug:


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## ARI001 (Jun 26, 2009)

> (I will be able to move them around and see what works best)


I would recommend you order plenty of filler strips if you are going to do this. 

On the vent; you could run it through the ceiling to avoid building a sofit if losing space is the main concern. As to the "ghettoness" of the recirculating fan I would say budget reflects what is ultimately installed and the results that can be expected. There are models with advanced filtration systems that are anything but ghetto. 

Matching the floor is not that difficult and not having the floor run all the way is poor craftsmanship and a sign to a would be buyer that corners where cut. If identified by potential buyers it could result in lost sales as most people generally will wonder where else corners where cut. Poor functionality will detract from the value of the remodel as well which could also affect the sale amount of the house. These comments are only meant as food for thought and not meant to be combative so please don't take them as hostile.

Anyway whatever you and your inlaws decide good luck and post some pictures when the project is complete.


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

Fingers,

I agree with you on the location of the range. Not really worth moving if the home owner is happy with it where it is. Also, keeping the outside vent is well worth the sacrifice. My thinking, with a kitchen so small the work triangle is less important than is the best use of available space.

So... my biggest issue with your design is the loss of very valuable counter top (workspace) for the pantry while at the same time adding less valuable counter top next to the fridge that will not be used for cooking purposes. If it were a large kitchen, a catch all area like you are creating with the counter top beside the fridge would be a great place for a place for mail, a phone, books, flower vases and bricabrac and other junk. In a small kitchen such luxury is usually not worth sacrificing usable space. That said, if the kitchen is rarely used, then it makes little difference while on the other hand, if there is a baker in the house, they would just about kill to have a little more counter space in the work area.

Buying the cabinets to move them around is the best way if you have the space, time and money to order enough extra cabinets of different shapes and sizes to really get a good mix of layouts. For me that would not be practical. A few hours making a 3D scale model is what works best for me. I have a hard time visualizing 2D pictures sometimes.

What ever you do please continue to post your questions, ideas and progress.

Rege


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## Fingers (Feb 6, 2008)

RegeSullivan said:


> Fingers,
> 
> I agree with you on the location of the range. Not really worth moving if the home owner is happy with it where it is. Also, keeping the outside vent is well worth the sacrifice. My thinking, with a kitchen so small the work triangle is less important than is the best use of available space.
> 
> ...


Interesting! :yes:

I'll think this through thoroughly tonight and chat with the homeowner. She wanted that "butler's pantry" area for a phone/coffee maker, so that she wouldn't clutter her main work area. 

With the plan as-is, she's gaining counter space in the following ways:
-30" gain from the refrigerator moving
-entire corner freed up from where the current countertop microwave oven sits 

As always, more usable counterspace would be much appreciated!

What I can easily do is move both pantry cabinets to the left of the fridge (delete countertop), and get a 24" upper cab for above the fridge so that there's no need for gables/finishing panels on either side. Then just extend the countertop on the dishwasher side all the way into the corner.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

I think with a small kitchen the triangle becomes less important
With everything in reach it's a little easier
At the same time a small chance like moving the fridge can make a lot of difference
My wife would love a floor to ceiling cabinet
I have found that having the fridge away from the other areas slightly helps
When the wife is cooking she uses the sink & stove - near each other
That leaves the fridge area open for easy access for drinks/ice :thumbsup:

I used kitchen design software to layout cabinets, shows 3D too
I also went to HD & they used their software to do the same & verify my layout
They can also show you a 3D mock-up of your kitchen

Don't forget electric upgrades before putting the new cabinets up
Also a good time to add under cabinet lights


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