# Attic insulation, Mass Save recommendations



## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Do you have soffit vents and air chutes over the exterior wall. 

Air sealing and a sealed access door are very important. Money well spent for a complete job. 

Building a raised walkway above the insulation is the best way to go.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Soffit vents yes. Air chutes, no idea. Don't know what those are.


Sealed access door, my mistake didn't say it but yes they would do that as well. Access door is also middle of the house.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

To back up for a moment, why did you bring in Mass Save? Were you concerned about energy costs or having a moisture problem?

Air sealing is important, if you need it. An A-frame is all roof covered with shingles so no air leaks out that direction. Just a guess, but I suspect your total air leakage is within the recommended amount. Did they do a blower door test, which measures the leakage and if so can you post their numbers?

I agree with Neal, devise a raised walkway to allow space for more insulation and avoid walking on it in the future.

If you measure the depth of your rafters, those long sloping boards, are they 6", 8", or deeper? Whatever they are they are providing the space for the insulation and hopefully an air gap above. Let us know.

All for now, but I suspect you don't need that company doing any more work, I'll explain.

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

I brought in Mass Save as I was angry at myself for agreeing to the ridge vent installation last year. I wanted to see if that was costing me money. Well, I did not find out.


Not having any moisture issues.


Mass Save does not do the blower test until you approve work. THEN they do it before and after to show you how much you improved.


I think somewhere along the way I have confused things, so will clarify with a pic, this is a ranch house. 
First pic is front of house. Normal wind flow is coming from the right end of the house, so naturally flows in the vent at the end, and through the middle and out the vent at the left. Except with the work last year they boarded up those vents and put in a ridge vent. All this winter I saw the snow on the roof melted all along the ridge vent, which meant I was losing heat. Never had that issue when I was relying on the vents. So that is why I brought in Mass Save; but they didn't do any testing which would tell me if the ridge was the wrong thing to do. ( still think it was wrong.)


Also if you look up you can see the places on the white pine where the 2 15 inch diameter boughs came off; they brought 3 smaller branches down with them, through the roof at the back and landed in my living room


Second pic, I am standing in the hallway with the cellar door open. Looking down is the stairwell. Look up and you see the attic access. Any major work like a raised walkway should have been part of last year's repairs when the entire living room ceiling was open to the attic and getting materials up would have been easy. 
AND this pic got turned when it uploaded, so it is sideways. The bottom is on the left, that is the view down to the cellar. The top and the attic access is on the right.


Finally, I again must have used the wrong term as I don't know what slope boards you are speaking of. What I was trying to say is, when you are up in the attic, look down, there are boards which make the 'floor' if you will, you walk on those, and in between is a well with batt insulation. Below that is the drywall which is the ceiling for the room below. Those wells are 6 inches deep. The R38 insulation would be (so I was told by Mass Save) 12 inches deep so you should not be seeing any of the wood. But you are, because the insulation was tapped down, especially where you climb up the ladder, so you can see where to place your foot. 



Hope this helps.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Ridge vent has everything to do with attic ventilation for the purpose of removing moisture and nothing to do with efficiency (or lack of). 

What they proposed was air sealing of the attic floor...which is a good thing. I don't know anything about them or their practices, but generally speaking, air sealing is a good thing.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Windows on Wash said:


> Ridge vent has everything to do with attic ventilation for the purpose of removing moisture and nothing to do with efficiency (or lack of).



That's what I was afraid of. Which means I never should have approved it.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

If you home has a soffit...it should also have a ridge vent. That is normal practice these days.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

It may be normal; but this house did not require it due to the prevailing wind patterns. And now it is costing me more to heat as my heat is all going out the darn ridge vent.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ok, standard ranch with what is referred to as a gable style roof. The A-frame was going to be bad news, family member used to own one.

Anyway, as WW said, the ridge vent should not be affecting your energy costa and adding one was a good idea.

My concern about Mass Saves is per what you said it was a marketing approach, like no blower door test until you sign up for the rest of the work. ANY energy audit should include a blower door test along with related infrared pictures. Taking those pictures while the house is depressurized is like opening your eyes, wow.

Did they give you any heat loss information? If not I can do some of that for you, I'm a retired energy auditor and the basics are easy. 

What do you heat with and what are your heating costs for a year?

Also, baffles are chutes out next to the eaves so ait being vented in can move above the insulation for a extra foot or so. With batts as opposed to blown-in insulation they may have skipped them as batts don't fall into the soffits.

Bud


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## stick\shift (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm sorry but it doesn't sound like you understand attic insulation and ventilation. I would suggest looking back at Bud's posts and following some of the links he posted to learn more. While I agree it sounds like you need more insulation, it's not the fault of the ridge vent.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Your thermal and air barrier is at the attic floor. The attic should be as close to ambient as possible and when there is no wind and it is cold, an poorly ventilated attic can create a bunch of issues. 

If it has increased your energy consumption, the home was not working as it should have been in the first place. If you didn't have any moisture issues on the sheathing, you were lucky in this case. There is a reason that ventilation is code now. 

Look into air sealing and insulating as it will save you money over the life of the home. Winter and summer.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Freedomsand said:


> That's what I was afraid of. Which means I never should have approved it.



I little explanation might make you feel a little better. 

The heat in the attic that escapes thru the upper vents comes from two places 



1. The top of the front and back walls where you just cannot get enough insulation to stop the heat from bleeding from the top of the wall.


2. Air leaks around light fixtures, chimneys furnace B vent, plumbing vents,
pot light, and holes for wires thru the top of the walls, as well as the attic access door. 





All these leaks from living space to the attic can be found in older homes and closing them is a must when you add more insulation because as the air move thru or around insulation is drops off the moisture from the house. House warm air can contain more moisture than can be held as the air cools raising thru the insulation. 



Soffit vents and air chutes supply air flow to pick up the heat off the front and back wall and move it up into the attic and out. 



When you see the snow melt at the ridge, smile, that is what you want to see. Any heat that is making it to the attic is being removed. 

That prevents ice dams in cold climates and keeps the roof cooler in hot climates. 



The attic access door is often a big problem with heat and or air lose. 

The sides of the hole should have been raised to an inch or two above the new insulation height, the door needs to be insulated to match the attic and the door needs to be sealed with weatherstripping. 



The walk way is often just a couple 2x4s or 2x6s. They could have been turned on edge with a a couple blocks between then to keep them standing up like joists, then short board could be added for a walking surface after the new insulation was added..


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Several posts inbetween, but asttic heat is supposed to go out. Insulation and air sealing are supposed to prevent heat from getting into the attic. Ice dams on the outside and condensation on the inside are what should go away.

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> My concern about Mass Saves is per what you said it was a marketing approach, like no blower door test until you sign up for the rest of the work. ANY energy audit should include a blower door test along with related infrared pictures. Taking those pictures while the house is depressurized is like opening your eyes, wow.
> 
> Did they give you any heat loss information? If not I can do some of that for you, I'm a retired energy auditor and the basics are easy.
> 
> ...




Pictures were not mentioned at ALL.


Heating: boiler, oil fired, heat is baseboard, forced hot water. No separate water heater, so hot water comes from this system as well. 



Oil cost for calendar 2018: $1797.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

oops made a mistake and no delete option.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

stick\shift said:


> I'm sorry but it doesn't sound like you understand attic insulation and ventilation. I would suggest looking back at Bud's posts and following some of the links he posted to learn more. While I agree it sounds like you need more insulation, it's not the fault of the ridge vent.




You got that right! 60+ y o female trying to figure out this stuff is tough. 

I do not have any ice dams ever, and no condensation on the inside, ever. My folks built this house before I was born, never had any issues. 

Oh and those white pines in the pic? Never had any branches hit the house in over 60 years, until last year. :vs_smirk: LOL all happens on my watch!


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

OK so, the ridge vent was ok, per you folks. And that is why I come on this forum, to hear from you folks, esp. when multiples agree that means a lot to me.



And now the air sealing in the attic, by lifting the batts, plus sealing the attic access doorway, are all good ideas.


The raised walkway, is that just something to make it easy to move around up there or is that related to insulating the home as well? Since the attic is not used, I'm only interested in lowering heating costs for now. I still don't see installing that raised walkway as anything but huge labor costs at this time. Every bit of material has to come in through the living room, up the ladder in the stairwell and then work with it up in the attic. I'm not sure I understand if it does anything re insulating as well? 



And I just bet Mass Save won't want to do that work. Not sure I'm up to finding a contractor for that at this time. But still learning what I need to do.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Freedomsand said:


> OK so, the ridge vent was ok, per you folks. And that is why I come on this forum, to hear from you folks, esp. when multiples agree that means a lot to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 If you never go into the attic you don't need a walk way, they are never put in new houses unless there is something up that needs to be serviced.


You are doing really good, the three of us seldom agree on everything.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> If you never go into the attic you don't need a walk way, they are never put in new houses unless there is something up that needs to be serviced.


 Nope, never go up there.



> You are doing really good, the three of us seldom agree on everything.





:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh: (one for each of you!)


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Heating oil costs of $1800 seems high. I am in a different area, and use natural gas, but you heating costs seem high to me. If you called them in because you wanted to save on heating costs, then you have their proposal, but of course, you don't _have to_ do anything.
Keep in mind that with insulation, there is diminishing returns --- the more you have, the less effect in putting in more. In my humble opinion, to bring in a crew just to add just an additional 3" is pretty much a waste of money. Note that in my area (and I am further South than you are) they put R60 into new houses. Are you sure its batts, or is it blown in ? --- blown in is not uniform -- some places its higher, some places its lower. But R38 is not bad --- don't expect to be seeing a visible decrease in your heating bill just by adding 3".
The air sealing would have some benefit, but without knowing how leaky your ceiling is, I can not comment on its benefit. You might assume that they know what to look for and have reason to believe your ceiling is leaky.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

I am sure it is batts, it is NOT blown in. I insisted on that last year when it was all replaced.


IMO the man did not 'know' anything, he worked off a check list. If his observation meant a check in column 1, fine. A check in column 2 meant work to be done. 



He had to call in to 'his colleagues' a few times. For instance, when I insisted he roll back the batt to check the R value; he went by the visual, saw less than 6 inches when Mass Save says there has to be 12 inches, so he marked that I needed 6 inches of insulation added. When I squawked, then he had to call to learn that R38 would do fine except it is tapped down so it lost insulating value. The 3 inches is to get back up to the 12 inches they require. Yes, I know, must be the new math, less than 6 because the wood is showing, add 3, and we now have 12 inches of insulation. 



I almost want to call Mass Save directly for some discussion!


Hey since WHEN is Ontario south of Mass?!!!


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

@Freedomsand "You got that right! 60+ y o female trying to figure out this stuff is tough. 

I do not have any ice dams ever, and no condensation on the inside, ever. My folks built this house before I was born, never had any issues."

That brings your process down to reducing energy costs and I can certainly understand that, 71 and aging. As for adding insulation and air sealing the value of those two improvements is tied to their cost. I did some reading on Mass Saves and apparently they have some incentives for some work. The hard part is, what would a normal price be? If you can get them to quote some prices separately, like air sealing and then insulation. I'm sure they want to bundle it all together but while they ar up there adding insulation the air sealing can be done with little extra effort.

If you can get their quotes we can judge what is reasonable.

As SPS-1 said, you don't have to do this right now, it is getting warmer. As for the air sealing a straw needs both ends open to pass your beverage. So does a house so sealing leaks around the perimeter of the basement can be beneficial (and necessary) as well. 

I assume you have a basement but don't remember any mention of it. Yes/no and is there any insulation down there?

Bud
PS a good target for you would be under $800 per year.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

I have costs! See attached.


Last item is to seal the perimeter in the basement. There is one finished room, no access so that is not part of the measurement. For reasons I won't get into here, the cellar work has to be postponed for about a year.


The next to last item, "air sealing," I'm not sure if that is the attic or the cellar. He did say the cellar perimeter first they air seal then they apply the strips of fiberglass.


The bath fan hose, apparently they automatically put in a new hose when they are up in the attic. The bath fan does vent properly, right out the roof.


That should be "hatch" as in the entry door to the attic.


Not sure if your comment re target is for heating? Or for the work?


Also, I was doing some quick online searching re heating with oil for a home this size sq feet, seems I am in the middle of what is listed.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

You had talked about 12" deep and they are talking about 3" fiberglass
I don't understand total cost and customer cost.


Can we assume that you already have air chutes out to the soffit.
many different types that fit between the rafter over the outside wall


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Nealtw said:


> You had talked about 12" deep and they are talking about 3" fiberglass
> I don't understand total cost and customer cost.



They want total insulation in attic to be 12 inches deep. I already have R38 up there, which "WOULD" be 12 inches, except that it was tapped down. So they was to add 3 inches more.


Total cost vs. Customer Cost. Mass Save is an state wide energy efficiency program. We consumers pay in to it each month with every electric bill, and gas bill (if a gas user; I am not). The program offers discounts on work, rebates to get folks to update various appliances to energy star rated appliance, and lower cost loans to do work. For my situation, all the work is done by either Mass Save or by one of its contracted vendors. I do not get to pick the contractor to do the work. Mass Save pays most of the job, I pay a small percentage. So the total cost is what the vendor calculates the job will be; I am guessing that is based on contracted rates with Mass Save. The vendor bill Mass Save the job total minus the customer cost. The customer cost is what I pay to the vendor. (Note: none of this is based on my income. There is whole other program for low income home owners who need to improve the energy efficiency of the home.)





> Can we assume that you already have air chutes out to the soffit.
> many different types that fit between the rafter over the outside wall



Air chutes / baffles were discussed earlier in this thread. I have no idea if I have them or not. I know I have batts not blown in insulation. I think someone said you don't need them with batts?


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Mass Save program: https://www.masssave.com/


While he was here, he put in new LED bulbs in any fixtures which had old incandescent bulbs. No charge to me. Thought I had already replaced everything, but he found 3 I had missed.


He also installed 2 programmable thermostats, no charge. I only had one, for the main house. I could have had wireless thermostats installed, at a discount, but did not go that route. ( I do not own a cell phone, so it would have required me to get one.)


And low flow shower head (I already had that) and aerators also would have been installed, no charge (already have them). 



I also got 2 brand new energy efficient power strips. No charge.


We can do the energy assessment every 2 years. No charge for that either.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Freedomsand said:


> They want total insulation in attic to be 12 inches deep. I already have R38 up there, which "WOULD" be 12 inches, except that it was tapped down. So they was to add 3 inches more.
> 
> 
> Total cost vs. Customer Cost. Mass Save is an state wide energy efficiency program. We consumers pay in to it each month with every electric bill, and gas bill (if a gas user; I am not). The program offers discounts on work, rebates to get folks to update various appliances to energy star rated appliance, and lower cost loans to do work. For my situation, all the work is done by either Mass Save or by one of its contracted vendors. I do not get to pick the contractor to do the work. Mass Save pays most of the job, I pay a small percentage. So the total cost is what the vendor calculates the job will be; I am guessing that is based on contracted rates with Mass Save. The vendor bill Mass Save the job total minus the customer cost. The customer cost is what I pay to the vendor. (Note: none of this is based on my income. There is whole other program for low income home owners who need to improve the energy efficiency of the home.)
> ...


 Sounds like a good deal.


Insist on air chutes, you might have as low as 4" between the wall and the roof sheeting. It takes no effort for some one to over stuff the area and block the venting.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> As SPS-1 said, you don't have to do this right now, it is getting warmer



In theory, having this work done will provide some benefit on the air conditioning costs for the Summer, right? And I sure don't want to have those fellows working in that attic in July / August!


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## Dave Sal (Dec 20, 2012)

Freedomsand said:


> Oil cost for calendar 2018: $1797.


That figure seems pretty high to me, but I have natural gas forced air heating so it's pretty much comparing apples to oranges. I just added my monthly 2018 natural gas costs and not counting taxes, my total cost was $867 for a tri-level home built in 1979. I've added fiberglass insulation and believe I've got about R60 or so. 

I was curious how much heat was being lost in the upper attic years ago so I bought a wireless thermometer that has a battery operated sensor that you place up in the attic. I have mine mounted to one of the rafters. The base unit is mounted to the wall in a bedroom closet that has the attic access hatch (insulated and sealed of course).

Since I added more soffit vents and extra insulation over the years, the attic temperatures normally stay around 3-5 degrees above the outside air temperature. I have no issues with ice dams or condensation.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Freedomsand said:


> Hey since WHEN is Ontario south of Mass?!!!



Parts of Ontario always has been. I am in the most southern area. Your ID shows Northeastern Massachusetts. I am further South than you are.


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

The Massave program seems to be administered differently by region of the state. I've had two energy audits and both times they did blower door tests. They can't tell you how leaky your house is without doing the test.

My most recent audit was two weeks ago. Before they looked at anything, they talked about the importance of insulating rim joists and air sealing the attic. After they did their audit and the blower door tests, the results indicated that if I air sealed the house, I would have to have a bath fan on a timer to pull air out of the house to provide fresh air exchange. Needless to say, I'm not doing it. 

Personally, I would go with blown in insulation on top of your batts. If you don't use the space, it's less expensive to install and gets into the nooks and crannies. You really want a blanket that covers the joists.

I would insist on a blower door test before doing anything. With them recommending both rim joist and attic sealing, you could wind up with a house that's too tight.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

More reason for me to call Mass Save and find out what's what. Thanks for the info.


BTW, no way re blown in insulation. Not in THIS house. Never.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Just so you will know, I'm still working on a reply. Just stuck on their "62.5 CFM50 per hour" terminology. That doesn't seem to match normal targets.
*Here* are some of the more common ways to reference air leakage. When I figure out what their number represents I'll post.

Bud


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Freedomsand said:


> BTW, no way re blown in insulation. Not in THIS house. Never.


Just curious, why the aversion to blown in?


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

djlandkpl said:


> Just curious, why the aversion to blown in?



My Dad and 2 of his brothers worked in construction. They always said "do NOT use blown in insulation. You have no idea how much lands where. You can have high spots, low spots, no spots. You can't be sure your edges are clear. You have no idea if any went down a wall and will pop out an electrical outlet. There is no consistency. One guy does it one way, next guy does it another, you can't even compare them. And the stuff they use, too many variations in that as well, can't be sure what you are getting. " And that's just the bit I remember! They could go on for half an hour (especially if you had all 3 of them talking together!) about the blown in stuff. So none of my cousins nor I have ever used it, nor will we ever use it. We were just trained that way! :biggrin2:



Thank you.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Well, I give up. Their term "62.5 CFM50 per hour" doesn't make any sense. Here's what i know.
A blower door measures air leakage in terms of air flow (CFM cubic feet per minute) at 50 Pascals negative pressure. A typical number might be 2000 CFM ant it would be referenced as 2000 CFM50. If they wanted a per hour number they would multiply that by 60 (minutes per hour), but no one uses that number.

Now, if they were shooting for the air changes per hour they would multiply the CFM50 by 60 and then divide the results by the volume of the house. As an example, if your house tested at the 2000 CFM50 we would multiply that by 60 and divide by the volume (est 16,000 ft³). 2000 x 60 all divided by 16,000 = 7.5 and the reference term would be ACH50 (air changes per hour at negative 50 Pascals). But that isn't very close to their 62.5 number.

I can't recreate their number or terminology so I have no idea what they are targeting for air tightness. Maybe I'm lost so welcome any help out there.

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Bud, remember, they did NOT DO any blower test.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Freedomsand said:


> My Dad and 2 of his brothers worked in construction........ So none of my cousins nor I have ever used it, nor will we ever use it. We were just trained that way! :biggrin2:
> Thank you.


Since these threads will be read by future visitors for decades I want to add to that statement. It is called old school training where every contractor learned from those who came before them. Since they did not have "Building Science Corporations" and Oak Ridge National Laboratories" that method was the best schooling available. One of the energy challenges we face today is changing some of those mindsets as modern science has made tremendous improvements in the construction industry and materials used.

That said, there is nothing wrong with good old fiberglass insulation as long as it is installed correctly. And incorrect installation is what basically what you were describing for the blown-in problems. Done right either will work.

Thanks,
I had to add that.
Bud


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Freedomsand said:


> Bud, remember, they did NOT DO any blower test.


I realize that but the price list you put up in post #24 indicates they will air seal to the 62.5 CFM50 per hour. So they will be doing a blower door test if and when they do the air sealing. 

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

I have been trying to figure out if I use more oil now than I did before the work last year. I asked my oil company if they can tell me, the woman on the phone said there is a lot of info on the chart but she doesn't know what it means. She sent me the chart.


I know I used more gallons. I want to factor in the weather; was it colder in Jan and Feb this year than last, and if so how to adjust for that. Do these charts tell me?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Not getting much out of those charts.

With oil it is really difficult because the deliveries don't correspond to the heating degree data, which is monthly. We can use the daily numbers and add them up but more difficult.

Can you give me a close big city so I can look at how their HDD (Heating Degree Days) compare with last year?

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Not getting much out of those charts.
> 
> With oil it is really difficult because the deliveries don't correspond to the heating degree data, which is monthly. We can use the daily numbers and add them up but more difficult.
> 
> ...



Dunno what you consider a "big city" for these purposes, lol.
Lawrence MA or

Manchester NH




either should be fine.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh cool! I found BizEE degree days web site! THAT was one piece I needed! Thank you. Looks like Jan and Feb in 2019 were colder than in 2018.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

There you go. Often I need a city at a similar latitude, like Albany, and then have to find a weather station. But you live there so faster.

Now, with the HDD and some magic you can calculate your gallons per HDD. Some oil companies do this to schedule deliveries.

Another question I didn't ask before is how your hot water is heated by your boiler. The two methods are a freestanding water tank that uses a circulator to heat the water. The other method pulls the water through a coil inside the boiler. The first method is far more efficient and the second is the most expensive. Both require the boiler to stay on all summer. We can get into your boiler efficiency if you think that will help reduce those oil bills.

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

There is an expansion tank. That is the only one. Boiler is 18 years old, and was very efficient when new. He did test it during the energy assessment; but he did not share his results, he only said it was 'fine.'


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

djlandkpl said:


> The Massave program seems to be administered differently by region of the state. I've had two energy audits and both times they did blower door tests. They can't tell you how leaky your house is without doing the test.
> 
> I would insist on a blower door test before doing anything. With them recommending both rim joist and attic sealing, you could wind up with a house that's too tight.



I spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is very rare for them to do a blower test at an assessment. THe equipment is costly, bulky, and it takes time to set up and run. So it is only done on the work date. He said if you have gas, esp. if you are with Columbia Gas (lol, Sept 13), if you have a very new construction, and a few other things, then they MAY do a blower test as part of the assessment. Otherwise, no. I didn't know which city you are in, etc. to get him to be more specific; he ended up assuming you are a neighbor of mine.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Bud9051 said:


> Well, I give up. Their term "62.5 CFM50 per hour" doesn't make any sense. Here's what i know.
> A blower door measures air leakage in terms of air flow (CFM cubic feet per minute) at 50 Pascals negative pressure. A typical number might be 2000 CFM ant it would be referenced as 2000 CFM50. If they wanted a per hour number they would multiply that by 60 (minutes per hour), but no one uses that number.
> 
> Bud



Spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is 62.5 CFM50 "per hour of air sealing." Work hours spent doing the air sealing, based on sq feet area to be sealed. I have 8 hours of work here.


Hope that helps. Don't feel bad, it took him some time pondering, talking it over to himself, looking at the worksheet, to figure out what it meant. It is how they carry out the cost.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Fortunately your bottom line on that item is Zero. But but the dollar figure on that line divided by 8 hours is $92.50 so not sure where they get their math. In any case air sealing an attic should be closer to $200. I guess that is unless it is a government program with no one looking over their shoulder.

I was looking for some target value that is standard withing the energy business, such as 5 ACH50. That would hold them to a known standard. The links I gave you talk about the different ways air tightness can be judged.

But thank you, I just hope they do a good job as that is the real objective.

Bud


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## djlandkpl (Jan 29, 2013)

Freedomsand said:


> I spoke w/ Mass Save today. He said it is very rare for them to do a blower test at an assessment. THe equipment is costly, bulky, and it takes time to set up and run. So it is only done on the work date. He said if you have gas, esp. if you are with Columbia Gas (lol, Sept 13), if you have a very new construction, and a few other things, then they MAY do a blower test as part of the assessment. Otherwise, no. I didn't know which city you are in, etc. to get him to be more specific; he ended up assuming you are a neighbor of mine.


I am Southeastern, MA near Mansfield and do have Columbia Gas. The program in this area is sponsored by Columbia Gas and not National Grid. Using the equipment as an excuse for not doing the test is lame. It's a door frame, a fabric cover and the blower itself. Less than 5 minutes to set up and another 5 to run their tests.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Well, that is why you get the blower test with the assessment; Columbia Gas. No gas here, so that is not an option.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Update. Mass Save is here today.


1. Air sealing in the attic.
2. Adding the baffles at the eaves, in the attic.

3. Adding another layer of R38 batts in the attic.


And as always, things come up.


The kitchen fan over the stove . . . well, it is in the wall behind the stove, wall switch turns it on. Original to the house, circa 1956. Apparently it vents into the attic. And in terms of building code, that is fine. They can't do their energy improvement work unless I approve venting that outside. OK fine. They wanted to put it out the side wall, which would have put it through the vinyl siding and 'over' the flat roof of the garage. I said no, got straight up and out through the roof. They will do it that way, but they aren't happy.


Re making the house "too tight." They are going to monitor that with the blower. The initial test, before any work, showed a reading of 1100, and for this size home, can go down to 690. I was told the air sealing will change this figure; but the added layer of insulation will not change it much at all as air moves through insulation. 



Busy day, the dogs aren't too happy hahaaa.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Air sealing is most important and since a blower door measures leakage everywhere sealing in the attic where leaks lose more air will be more effective. Thus the performance will be better than their numbers will indicate. 

It would be nice if they went for r-60 while they are up there, getting set up is the biggest part of the cost, but 38 will be good when air sealing is included.

Thanks for the update.

Bud


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Ahahaaa, @*Bud9051* , never satisfied!


Mass Save will only subsidize adding 3 inches of insulation. I decided to pay for the R 38 myself.


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## jackallis (May 4, 2019)

might have to mass save come to me place mate


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

If you live in Massachusetts (you sound like an Aussie so I'm not sure where you live) it is worth it @*jackallis* The initial energy assessment is free. You get free LED bulbs, programmable thermostat installed, energy saver power strips, water filters at sinks, low flow shower head, all free. Option for wi fi programmable thermostat for a small fee. And recommendations re what more you can do to improve your home.


When I lived in RI we had a similar program, RI Saves. So if you are in another state, search for it in your state.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Sorry did not read all posts. Just caught you saying joist sealing with spray foam and having full 12" of insulation.


Insulation works by trapping air. If fiberglass is compressed, it loses the air pockets, therefore less insulating. If you want access, you must add raised walkway and not compress the insulation. Little flattening is ok, but not compressing 12" into 6 or 8 inch joist space.


Looks like mass-save is trying to give you max insulation at your expense. I disagree with sealing the joist bay with spray foam. It's expensive and does not do anything except willy nilly seal ANY suspect air leaks. If you are willing to diy, you can lift the batts away and inspect for open gaps in the drywall. Usually around the electricals and plumbing. Drywall is finished with compound which is effective air seal, but not if you slather over large gaps. Compound over large gaps will shrink and crack.


Everybody told you you need to understand how air seal and insulation is done. I think you need to start with basics and read what they mean. Asking pointed questions without understanding the basics means you won't understand the answers. Youtube has many videos. Some may seem pointless but you have to slug through them.


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## Freedomsand (Mar 11, 2015)

Thanks @carpdad the work is completed. I'm not about to DIY my climbing ladder days are over; 60 y o female w/ 2 replaced knees and 1 replaced hip. Wandering around up there, trying to remain on the joists, lol, I KNOW I would land in the kitchen. Nope, that was not ever an option. 



Mass Save pays for all the air sealing, so when you say it is expensive, that wasn't a factor. 



Mass Save paid for the air sealing, plus 3 inches of insulation, installed. I paid the difference, and instead of the 3 inches, had one more layer of R38 installed. I should see a big improvement in my oil use next winter. Depending on price of oil, I may or may not see a change in out of pocket expenses, but I hope to see that as well. 



Thanks again.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Good lord, I would take that deal anyday.:smile:


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## jackallis (May 4, 2019)

Freedomsand said:


> If you live in Massachusetts (you sound like an Aussie so I'm not sure where you live) it is worth it @*jackallis* The initial energy assessment is free. You get free LED bulbs, programmable thermostat installed, energy saver power strips, water filters at sinks, low flow shower head, all free. Option for wi fi programmable thermostat for a small fee. And recommendations re what more you can do to improve your home.
> 
> 
> When I lived in RI we had a similar program, RI Saves. So if you are in another state, search for it in your state.



did this but not through mass save. my town has its own electric provider, not eversource or nstar, so they contract out the assessment. 

guy showed up and gave some bulbs and stuff.


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