# Full Septic or Clog?



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

sounds like the tank & field lines maybe full of sludge.. Time for the pumper truck. Or, as they call it here ... The honey waggon


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

I would suggest finding the tank and opening the lids. Then watch to see if fluid comes in when you use the drains in the house.

If no movement in the tank, sounds like a clog. If the tank overflows on the "in" side, sounds like the tank is full of sludge. Then, put the lid back on the "in" side of the tank. Run more water. If the tank overflows on the "out" side, the line to the field is blocked or the field will not take anymore liquid.

nothing guaranteed 100% but I have had fair success with that method.


----------



## the_man (Aug 14, 2010)

there really isn't such a thing as a full tank. Dig up the inlet and outlet. Run water inside. If it's not coming into the inlet, sewer pipe is blocked. If it's getting to the tank, but not leaving the tank, leach pipes are blocked. If the solids level in the tank is over 12", get it pumped


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

the_man said:


> If it's getting to the tank, but not leaving the tank, leach pipes are blocked. If the solids level in the tank is over 12", get it pumped



Forgive the ignorance of a first time home owner... what is a leach pipe and how can we tell if the solids level is over 12"? won't there be a layer of scum on the top that blocks the view?


----------



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

breakitnmakeit said:


> what is a leach pipe and how can we tell if the solids level is over 12"?


Invite that butthead neighbor of yours over for a beer, push him into the tank. 
If it's above his knees, it's time to pump it.

DM


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> =the_man;503514]there really isn't such a thing as a full tank.


apparently you have never seen a tank that was ignored for way too long. Yes, there is such thing as a full tank.


breakit

here is a link to a site that give a very good explanation the tank, how it works, and even how to measure your solids and sludge.


http://www.inspectapedia.com/septic/septicsludge.htm#sludge1

and in case you do not see the link to the recommended pumping schedule:

http://www.inspectapedia.com/septic/tankpump.htm


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

leach lines field lines same


----------



## the_man (Aug 14, 2010)

nap said:


> apparently you have never seen a tank that was ignored for way too long. Yes, there is such thing as a full tank.


look at the last thing I said.... more than 12 inches of solid material on top=pump it out. Of course I've seen tanks with too much solid material in it, saying it like that gets past the questions "How much is too much" and "Do I have to get it pumped yet?" Just trying to expedite the questions a bit :laughing:


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

It is a foreclosure.. God & the previous owners only knows what's in there


----------



## the_man (Aug 14, 2010)

breakitnmakeit said:


> Forgive the ignorance of a first time home owner... what is a leach pipe and how can we tell if the solids level is over 12"? won't there be a layer of scum on the top that blocks the view?


The solids that float on top are what I'm referring to. Use a shovel to break it apart a bit to get an idea how thick it is. Doesn't hurt to pump it, might be a good idea regardless.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the link I provided explains how to measure sludge and scum.

I would suggest pumping the tank anyway.


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

nap said:


> the link I provided explains how to measure sludge and scum.
> 
> I would suggest pumping the tank anyway.


 

The Honey Waggon man:yes:


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

I appreciate all your answers. I would love to get it pumped, but I was hoping to not have to do it immediately as we are extremely tight on money at the moment. (long story... but have to wait for court date to get it back to good..)

I do have another question, though.. I've been reading up a lot about septic systems and it seems that our property is kinda, shall we say, screwed.

There is a very large, very old tree about 20 feet from the septic system, although the house is 20 years old and this tree is definitely older than that... The ground here is also very sandy, though and there is a slight downslope leading toward the house, over the septic. But our property also ends on a lake, which is maybe 50 feet from the septic system - could the drain field be in or under the lake, or would it have to do into dirt somewhere?

What is the chance we going to have to replace the whole system?


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

if it is in the lake, it isn't a legal leachfield. It wouldn't be under the lake either. It needs to be in relatively dry soil that percolates (drains) well.

Given the new info, you might simply have a failed leachfield or whatever type of leaching system you have. Lake property is notorious for having problems due to all the water.

now, this isn't to say it doesn't simply dump into the lake. You wouldn't be the first house to have a direct line into a lake or river.





> What is the chance we going to have to replace the whole system?


It wouldn't surprise me at all to have to replace the entire system.


I would start with talking to the neighbors to see what types of systems everybody else has. I would also ask the very close neighbors if they have any information that might help you. Sometimes they have all the answers you are looking for.

Then I would talk to the government entity that controls septic systems in your area. See what they have to say about the area and if there have been any common problems with systems in the area.


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

B-4 I installed my septic system I had all trees removed.. Tree Roots are bad news for feild lines


----------



## Perry525 (Jan 10, 2010)

A septic tank is always full....of water!

A septic tank needs to be emptied when the compost solids at the bottom come half way up the tank.

And/or the floating scum/oil/fat/plastic/whatever fill the top third of the tank.

Open the tank and push a 10 foot long pole down through the floating scum and water until it touches the top of the compost.

That will answer, is it full.

The floating scum is a bit harder to measure, you need another pole with a hinged panel that can be pulled up and out at a right angle to the pole.

The pole should have a series of easy to read marks, white bands that will indicate how thick the floating scum is.

You hold the panel in line with the pole and push it down through the scum.

Once it is in clear water, pull the panel up at a right angle and lift back up until it starts to lift the scum, read off the pole how thick the scum is.

Job done.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

Our closest neighbors are way down the street and nowhere near the lake. Basically every house on my block has been foreclosed on. The only neighbors that were left moved out last week, so no one to really ask.  Between our property and the line of properties on the next block, there is a sump which leads to the lake. I'm wondering if this is where our drainfield is and we all share it?

We're going to dig up the septic this week and see what we can find out.


----------



## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

Sure am glad MY week will only be *yuk* drywalling..... still better than septic.....
You have my sympathies.

DM


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

breakitnmakeit said:


> Between our property and the line of properties on the next block, there is a sump which leads to the lake. I'm wondering if this is where our drainfield is and we all share it?
> .


you local department of health, building department, or water and sewer department may be able to help you. If that is a municipal owned lift station, the would likely be able to tell you who is hooked to what.

When you bought this house, what did the disclosure form say as to septic system? Maybe you don't even have a tank but either a municipal or community septic system. Maybe they turned the pump off since nobody lives there anymore 

just kidding but there may be a problem with the system that needs attention.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

I found our survey. The drainfield is behind our house on our property and away from the big tree. The septic is a few feet from the back of the house and we've dug most of it up. The problem is that we haven't found any access points... just a big concrete slab with metal ropes on it... Not sure what to do from here. There is also a pvc pipe that runs diagonally over it.. We thought, at first, this was our leech pipe, but it's only about 1.5" thick. We've since figured that it is probably for our irrigation system since it's heading between the system's well and the lake.

But what are we to do with no access points? Where would they be in relation to this giant slab? There's no way we can move the slab.. it's about 4'x8' so far and we haven't found all the edges.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the slab?

I would suspect that is the top of your tank. Dig down one side a bit to see if that is true.


I can't say I am familiar with a no opening tank (other than a huge slab on top) but who knows.

If it were me, I would clear off the entire top and look for the lids. Are you sure the wire ropes aren't embedded in a lid and not meant for the lift point for the entire tank?


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

I realize you are tight on money, but now would be a very good time to call in a professional inspector who can locate the tank, the field, and the distribution box, and check on how well each is operating. I am a bit surprised you did not need a septic inspection prior to buying the house, where I live you cannot get a mortgage unless there is a professional inspection certifying that the system is OK, but maybe you paid cash, or live in an area where there are no rules.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

We found the openings! There are two of them. The slab I mentioned is indeed the septic tank and 2 of the 8 metal ropes turned out to be openings. They were flush with the top so we have to brush away the excess dirt to find it. We opened up one side and the water is all the way up to the top. We dipped a pvc pipe covered with white fabric on it all the way down and hit the very bottom and pulled it back up but there is no dirt on it at all except maybe a couple inches. There isn't even much scum on the top. It's all water. We even tapped the pipe that comes into the tank, but it's under water so we can't see it.

What does this mean? I'm assuming it shouldn't be that full of water, right?


----------



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

It will be full up to the inlet and outlet level which should be at the same level. The scum floats on top and the sludge sinks to the bottom. They typically have one large opening used for cleaning which you found and one or two smaller openings by the inlet and outlets for local maintenance. It sounds like yours is in good shape from what you describe. It is probably a good idea to have it pumped while you have it opened up. Also a good idea to buy a concrete riser from a local concrete company which will go over the opening. They also sell a lid for the riser and that becomes your new cleanout lid. This will save you a lot of digging the next time you have it pumped. You should plan a riser and lid total height that will give you at least 6 inches of topsoil over the riser lid.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> I realize you are tight on money, but now would be a very good time to call in a professional inspector who can locate the tank, the field, and the distribution box, and check on how well each is operating. I am a bit surprised you did not need a septic inspection prior to buying the house, where I live you cannot get a mortgage unless there is a professional inspection certifying that the system is OK, but maybe you paid cash, or live in an area where there are no rules.



We had our septic inspected as part of the home inspection and this was all that was required. Basically, he ran all of the water lines for nearly 2 hours and checked for any slow drains or backing up and also checked outside for any wetness or softness. There was none. There is also an alarm on the side of the house connected to the septic and it would not go off, so he did say we may want to have it inspected and pumped in the near future to get the alarm working, but other than that, everything was working fine and well for the first 3 or so weeks of us living here.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

Jim F said:


> You should plan a riser and lid total height that will give you at least 6 inches of topsoil over the riser lid.


The entire tank is only about 6 inches under the ground.


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

breakitnmakeit said:


> The entire tank is only about 6 inches under the ground.


 

How can that be ? The tank itself deeper than 6'' unless it sticks out of the ground


----------



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

breakitnmakeit said:


> The entire tank is only about 6 inches under the ground.


I guess you don't have to worry about the riser. Mine was 2-3 feet underground so it got a riser and lid.


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I want to hear more about your alarm. Is this hooked to your septic tank?
Did it go off when you first backed up?


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

kenmac: The TOP of the septic tank was only 6 inches under the ground. Of course the rest of it is underneath it. What I was saying is that we only had to dig 6 inches to get to it.

theEplumber: The alarm does not actually work. There is a box on the side of our house next to the septic tank that says Septic Alarm and it has two buttons: Alarm and Test. Pushing either one does nothing. There are wires coming from it that go down into the ground. Basically what the inspector said is that the alarm isn't working, but that didn't really mean anything as far as the septic tank itself goes, it may have just been disconnected or damaged under the ground. The A/C condensation line was destroyed and underground as well - we're thinking someone did a very poor job mowing the lawn before they left and just hit everything. But without anything backing up and no signs of wetness or smell in the back yard, the septic seemed fine.

We are making calls to have it pumped now, but it's surprisingly pricey. Everyone is around $300. Both of our parents have had it done for less than $150.


----------



## kenmac (Feb 26, 2009)

breakitnmakeit said:


> kenmac: The TOP of the septic tank was only 6 inches under the ground. Of course the rest of it is underneath it. What I was saying is that we only had to dig 6 inches to get to it.
> 
> We are making calls to have it pumped now, but it's surprisingly pricey. Everyone is around $300. Both of our parents have had it done for less than $150.


 
6 "of cover on the top of the tank
Ok that makes sense.. It's been a while since I had mine pumped.. It was 150 then.. I heard they have gone up here but I don't know the current price


----------



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

I made an appointment today partially inspired by your post. It's been 4 years and should have been done sooner with four kids in the house but it's an easy thing to neglect. My price is $259.20 so $300 probably isn't out of line depending on your area. How long ago did your parents have theirs done and are they in your local? Some charge a separate disposal fee so that's something else to consider.


----------



## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm no expert but if you have minimal scum floating on top then it seems like the water level should not be all the way to the top of the tank. The bottom of the 4" line to the drain field should be around 6 to 8 inches below the top of the tank and should fully drain to the leach field in a very short time when water flows into the tank from the house. So the top of the water (not the scum) should be around 6 inches below the top of the tank unless the leach field is not draining properly.

Sounds like you have a drain field issue.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

jogr said:


> I'm no expert but if you have minimal scum floating on top then it seems like the water level should not be all the way to the top of the tank. The bottom of the 4" line to the drain field should be around 6 to 8 inches below the top of the tank and should fully drain to the leach field in a very short time when water flows into the tank from the house. So the top of the water (not the scum) should be around 6 inches below the top of the tank unless the leach field is not draining properly.
> 
> Sounds like you have a drain field issue.


somewhere along the line the thread did get sidetracked. I agree, especially since OP said the inlet pipe was fully submerged as well. 

Sounds like the drain field is saturated.

That's bad new$.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

There seems to be nothing in the tank at all except water, and it is up to the very top. We also uncovered the distribution box and the top came off of it and it began leaking a little bit when we took the weight of the dirt off of it. Our drain field seems fine, though, from the top anyway. There is no standing water or even slight dampness, the grass is just as green and tall as the rest of the yard, and there is no smell.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

Had the septic inspected. The tank is fine, it's just water in there and it's only a few inches too high.. The reason why it's high is the water isn't going anywhere, and our alarm didn't work is because we have a failed pump.

Basically, the septic tank is on the water table, but the drain field had to be at the same level as the tank because our table is so high, so there is a pump between the tank and the drain field (which we found out is directly under the huge tree). Well, the pump is supposed to be plugged into the alarm, but the electrician that was brought in before we bought the house plugged it directly into a socket so it just ran and ran and ran and never turned off which burned it out. As soon as we plugged it into the alarm, the alarm went off - it worked fine.

He poked at the drain field and no water came out. He said that means it's fine, but I'm not sure how much water would be in the drain field to come out if the pump isn't putting any water to it. Either way, we didn't have enough money to get it replaced today (we were expecting a $250 cleaning, not a $625 pump) so we're getting it replaced on Tuesday.

I'll follow up in a few weeks and let you know what happens!!


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

breakitnmakeit said:


> Either way, we didn't have enough money to get it replaced today (we were expecting a $250 cleaning, not a $625 pump) so we're getting it replaced on Tuesday.
> !


that'a a lot less than a multi-thousand dollar drain field. Good to hear you are zeroing in on the problem and will soon have things working like they are supposed to. Hopefully the field is fine and this will be the end of things...


for awhile. Welcome to home ownership.:yes:


----------



## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm no septic/drainfield expert but.. you said the tank had only water in it. Wheres the solids? Do you have another tank without a pump in it? I'm confused


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

TheEplumber said:


> I'm no septic/drainfield expert but.. you said the tank had only water in it. Wheres the solids? Do you have another tank without a pump in it? I'm confused


We didn't actually pump it, and there are solids on the bottom, but only 2 or 3 inches of it. The rest of the tank was completely full of water. There wasn't even any scum on the top of it, so it was probably either recently pumped or the solids were all broken down from sitting so long. This was a foreclosure that had been sitting for at least a year (my in-laws think longer, but who knows).


----------



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Got mine opened up and pumped out today. It is a double chambered deal. The first chamber is probably 2/3 the size of the 2nd chamber. The honey stick test reveled the first chamber was pretty near full of solids. The second chamber serves as spillover for anything that gets by the first one. The second was all liquid with maybe a little sludge ans a thin layer of scum. Not sure how the little ants got in there but they were crawling over the scum in the second chamber. 

The guy that cleaned it out told me he didn't see any problems. I guess four years is too long in between with six people in the house especially considering the long showers my kids like to take.


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

the large amounts of water will not effect how often you need to pump. It is the amount of solids you introduce as well as contaminants that stop the decomposition process that breaks down the solids. Pure fluids will simply pass through the tank and to the field. 

if you didn't catch it, here is a suggested schedule to pump based on number of occupants and size of tank:

http://www.inspectapedia.com/septic/tankpump.htm

it is only a suggestion due to the variables. You should keep a record of the conditions when your tank is pumped and then when it is pumped again, you can calculate a more accurate schedule for your system.


----------



## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yep, thanks nap I've seen similar schedules on the web before. I'm definitely going to try to stick to 2 years for next time and see how it looks. That 1.5 would have me doing it in the dead of winter. 

I was also under the impression that too much water had the potential to wash out some of the useful bacteria and enzymes. Either way, I will still use it to nag my kids to take shorter showers.:laughing:


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

It would take a lot of water and no other waste to remove the bacteria. The liquids tend to flow over the top and the solids settle which protects the bacteria from being washed out and the beneficial bacteria are added every time you poop as well.



> . Either way, I will still use it to nag my kids to take shorter showers


but your kids will never know so simply continue to use that as justification.

as an added, tell them they have to dipstick the tank to keep on eye on things if the wash out all of the bacteria.:laughing:


----------



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

There has been a lot of research on the question of how often it is necessary to pump a septic tank. It is only necessary when the solids level in the tank reaches approximately 20 percent of the depth of the tank. This is easily checked with a wooden stick with a rag on the end. Interestingly enough, if you are careful about what you put down the drain (no food, no chemicals, no garbage, DO NOT use a garbage grinder) it is entirely possible to go years, perhaps decades, with absolutely no need to pump your tank. My tank has gone ten years without the need for pumping, and yes I check it regularly, there are virtually no solids in it. So it is incorrect to assume that you need to pump your tank on a specific schedule, it is totally a function of what you put into the tank, and how well the system is functioning.


----------



## breakitnmakeit (Sep 5, 2010)

Daniel Holzman said:


> There has been a lot of research on the question of how often it is necessary to pump a septic tank. It is only necessary when the solids level in the tank reaches approximately 20 percent of the depth of the tank. This is easily checked with a wooden stick with a rag on the end. Interestingly enough, if you are careful about what you put down the drain (no food, no chemicals, no garbage, DO NOT use a garbage grinder) it is entirely possible to go years, perhaps decades, with absolutely no need to pump your tank. My tank has gone ten years without the need for pumping, and yes I check it regularly, there are virtually no solids in it. So it is incorrect to assume that you need to pump your tank on a specific schedule, it is totally a function of what you put into the tank, and how well the system is functioning.


From the research I've done, I'm going to follow this in the future. The septic inspector that came over for us advised to have it pumped every 3-5 years as a general rule. We'll probably inspect it ourselves every 3 years or so and get it pumped if it's needed. 

You can also use some tricks to keep it from getting too high:

Don't do all your laundry in one day, spread it out, and don't overdo it on the detergent. Likewise, don't take a shower and run the dishwasher and washing machine all at the same time.


Don't flush stupid stuff down your toilet and your sinks. Lesser-known bad things to flush are grease, oil, lots of food (even if you have a garbage disposal), and paint.
 

Get some yeast packets in bulk from BJ's, Costco, Sams' Club, etc. and flush one down each toilet once a month.
 

If you have any kind of backup, find and open up your cleanout line. It'll usually be in the ground between your septic tank and your house (ours was about 3-5 inches below the ground, though some actually stick out completely). If it does not have water in it, it's in your house somewhere (call a plumber). If it does have water in it, your septic tank is backing up (call a septic specialist).


----------



## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Daniel Holzman said:


> . So it is incorrect to assume that you need to pump your tank on a specific schedule, it is totally a function of what you put into the tank, and how well the system is functioning.


If you will notice, I said a _suggested _schedule and in agreement with your statement, if depends on what you toss down the drain.

The point of a schedule is simply to prevent a person from not checking their tank and causing solids to be sent to the drain field. Once a person understands their tank, yes, they may find they do not need to pump as often as the schedule suggests. If you allow solids to get into the drain field, you can cause irreparable harm. Better to check, or even pump to often rather than cause yourself such problems.


----------

