# Mixing thinset



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Im ready to install my tile subfloor tonight but im second guessing myself on how to mix my thinset. I have about 75sq/f to do.

I only have 3/8 cordless and cord drills, i know its not strong enough in most cases, but I was going to split my 50lbs bag into 2 pales and mix then seperatly. 

I also purchased a mixing paddle at HD that im not sure if it will work for what i need. Should this be sufficient?http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/...Ntx=mode+matchall&recN=0&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber

How thick should the mortar be before i let it sit for 10 minutes? I also found someone selling a mastercraft hammer drill 1/2 locally for $20, would it be worth to purchase it? Does the drill have to be able to turn the hammer action off for the mixing or is that what you want?


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

First of all, drills. Most mixing paddles I've seen have a 1/2" shaft so I'm not sure it would even fit into a 3/8" drill chuck. I'd vote for getting the hammer drill locally. $20 is well worth it. Most hammer drills have a switch to "hammer" or just drill. I did a quick search for Mastercraft and I found this:
http://www.consideritsoldoutlet.com...spx?sfid=172505&i=241038049&mpid=11451&dfid=1
There's a black switch/button on top of the silver casing. That's most likely the hammer/drill switch. A hammer drill with that paddle will be fine. Go slowly. You don't want to go full speed with the drill which can start adding air into the mix. You don't want that.

Thinset. Each manufacturer will have a set of detailed instructions on the bag. That should tell you the ratio of water to powder. I suggest mixing in smaller batches until you get the hang of it. I always hear the "peanut butter" analogy. You want to keep the thinset thick enough so when troweled, the ridges will hold their shape. But don't have it so thick that it's actually sticky. You should be able to spread the thinset smoothly, without it wanting to clump. Remember, it's easier to mix more than it is to have it start curing on you in the bucket. That's not fun. Also remember to clean off your paddle and trowels. I like to have an extra bucket of water for cleaning. When you're done mixing the thinset, run the paddle in the cleaning bucket. In between batches of thinset, I clean my trowels off too. Then again, I have about $100 worth of them!

and FYI, you won't need 2 50lb bags to do 75 sq ft! :no: 

SMALL BATCHES!!!!


----------



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You will be mixing too much thinset at one time if you do that. Don't mix a half bag at one time, mix less. Follow the instructions on the bag for mixing consistency. Lite weight drill motors won't survive the task for very long. Use a low speed (350-650 rpm). Usually 1/2' drills are available with the lower rpm requirement.

Only seventy-five square feet isn't a big deal, you could mix the required thinset by hand without a problem. Mix smaller batches.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks for quick reply!

First off i only have 1 50lbs bag for the tile subfloor, im sure i will have enough with that. As for the mixing, the reason i wanted to mix half a bag at once is because the superseal (similar to ditra) is cut into 3 peices for my washroom, so i didnt want to run short and have to stop and mix another batch. But i guess i can go 1/3 or even 1/4 bag at a time, im sure it wont cure on me in 20 minutes while i mix more up if needed. For the mixin ill try to purchase that hammer drill today, if i cant im sure mixing a 1/4 bag at a time by hand wont be a big deal.

As for installing my tiles saturday, would doing the same with the mixing 1/4 bag at a time be a good idea? Obviously i would only spread the thinset as i go and in the area that i will tile. Is there a problem with stoping and mixing more thinset a few times during a job?


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Thinset goes a loooooong way. You're way too excited about mixing a lot at a time. I'd suggest mixing a 1/2 gallon at a time, at the most. Once you get your trowel skills going a little faster, mix a little more. You'll be surprised how far it gets you. You don't want a huge batch that is stiffening up by the time you get to the bottom of the bucket.

You do not need a hammer drill to mix anything. A hammer drill is for drilling into concrete. It will work though. A regular drill would work just fine.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

On a side note, i watched a few videos of people installing ceramic tile. I noticed that some people are actually kneeling on fresh installed tiles to install the other tiles in the next row. I was always under the impression you shouldnt do this, you should try to start tiling at teh far end of the room and work your way to the doorway so not to disturb any tiles that have just been set.


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Stay off freshly laid tiles. I don't know what videos you were watching but there are very few circumstances where walking on the tile would be ok.

Work in small sections. Don't worry about pausing between mixing batches of thinset. You're much better off taking your time and not rushing. 

SMALL BATCHES!!!

I use a $25 hammer drill I bought for doing nothing other than mixing thinset. It's good to have around. Like I said, you should be able to switch it to drill only and it will work perfectly for mixing. I choose to mix with the drill because if I were to mix by hand, I'd be wearing as much thinset as I was troweling!

Good luck


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Once again thank you angus!

Was just looking at some Youtube videos, i usually research something to death when i dont know it before i start. Common sence kicked in when i seen a few videos of people installing tile from the tiles they've just installed, i knew it wasnt the smartest thing.

Im going to start with smaller batchs then 1/4 bag i think, ill use the ratio on the bag and just use a margarine container as my cup. Once i get going, ill know how much "1 batch" covers and how long it takes for me and adjust from there.

I hope i get that hammer drill tonight, if not my wrists are going to curse at me tomorrow, but the wife will be happy so I guess i cant complain. 

Thanks again and ill keep you guys posted on my progress


----------



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

If you don't waste any thinset a single fifty pound bag should do 75 square feet, BUT, the Superseal must also be installed with thinset. I'm not sure you'll have enough with only one bag of thinset.

The thinset used to install the Superseal will be mixed much thinner than what you mix for the tile and it will go much farther as you will also be using a smaller trowel than what is used for the tile.

Mixing the thinset is the least of your worries.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Bud Cline said:


> If you don't waste any thinset a single fifty pound bag should do 75 square feet, BUT, the Superseal must also be installed with thinset. I'm not sure you'll have enough with only one bag of thinset.
> 
> The thinset used to install the Superseal will be mixed much thinner than what you mix for the tile and it will go much farther as you will also be using a smaller trowel than what is used for the tile.
> 
> Mixing the thinset is the least of your worries.


I bought 2 bags of unmodified for the tiles, kerabond. Might not even need the second bag but i rather have it and return it if not needed.

Do i have to mix the thinset for the superseal thinner? I was going to follow the directions on the bag itself.


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Hmmm, guess I missed the superseal part. You need to follow their recommendations.

"_THINSET'S - On concrete substrates you can use unmodifed thinset or with or without a liquild latex additive. *For all other applications,use
unmodified thinset with the recommended amount of liquid latex additive.*

Installing Thinset - Using a *1/4" notched trowel*, cover the base in a coat of thinset *that has a liquidy consistency and can just hold the notched
shape*. Unroll the precut pieces onto the thinset with the white cloth side down. Ensure it is solidly embedded it into the thinset with a float or
trowel. Working from the center out to remove air pockets and to ensure 100% adhesion. Lift a corner of the membrane to ensure full adhesion.
Make sure that you only install as much as you can handle based on drying times and temperature. Do not exceed the working time of the thinset._"

If you're going over a wood substrate, you need to get Keralastic for mixing with the Kerabond. Be prepared for sticker shock


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Angus,

Im using versabond, modified thinset, for under the superseal. For the tiles on top i will be using the kerabond.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Im not sure about the ratio, maybe someone can help me with the math.

The bag of versabond says to mix 5.68L (6quarts) of clean water with 22.68kg (50lb) of the powder. Any idea of the ratio?


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

What is the superseal going over?


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

angus242 said:


> What is the superseal going over?


2 layers of plywood staggered, second layer nice side up


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

The bag tells me use 5.68L of water to 50lbs of mix. SO if my math is correct, I can devide both sides with 5.68 which gives me the results 1L of water to 8.8lbs of mix.

Of course i can devide this by 2 and make a smaller batch right?


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

simonb said:


> 2 layers of plywood staggered, second layer nice side up


You realize the superseal directions say for this application to "_*use
unmodified thinset with the recommended amount of liquid latex additive." *

_just keep dividing by 2 to get your mixture. Thinset under the superseal will be a bit thinner than normal.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

I know what you mean. Its very hard to find information on their site and most of the links arent there, you have to google to get links to their site.

Here is a direct link to their installation pdf http://www.superseal.ca/NewPDFs/Tile_Subfloor.pdf

If you look at the THINSET area;

*THINSET'S - On concrete substrates you can use unmodifed thinset or with or without a liquild latex additive. For all other applications,use unmodified thinset with the recommended amount of *​​​​​​_*liquid latex additive.*_*You can use the premixed modified thinset but drying time is considerably longer.*

The last line says I can use premixed, but it wont dry as fast and i assume i cant install tile right away like the instructions say. But in my case im only installing at least 24 hours after.

Is this correct?​


----------



## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

Pre-mixed can take an age to set. Think the pros will agree with me when I say put down the pre-mixed and back away.:no:


----------



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Simon you must be an engineer of some kind! Most people that come to these forums obsessing with the proper way to mix thinset are engineers of some description.:yes:

Put a single quart of water in a bucket. Slowly add the powder as you mix. When you get to creamy peanut butter consistency stop adding powder and mix thoroughly. Wait ten minutes and mix thoroughly one more time. Now the thinset is ready to use. Don't measure anything other than the first quart of water.

If you decide THAT batch was too big or too small then do the next one different and adjust up or down from your first experience.

Thinset is usually a very forgiving thing and shouldn't be giving anyone a heart attack.:wink:


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with premix, just that it takes longer to set, no big deal, even the rep at the 1-866 number said you just have to wait a day.

Bud cline, i know i over analyze this stuff at times, but in my defence, measure once cut twice... no wait, measure twice cut once :laughing:

As for the mud, its nice and thick. When i use my notched trowel the square notches it leaves dont fall. And at the same time its easy to spread, almost like drywall mud.

I was wondering is the mud supose to just stick to the thin cloth under the underlayment or does it go through?

Oh by the way, im about 80% done, just waiting 10 minutes to mix again


----------



## HomeDepot23 (Jun 15, 2008)

"even the rep said wait a day" Er, try 3-6 in many cases. I know, I get the complaints!!!


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

HomeDepot23 said:


> "even the rep said wait a day" Er, try 3-6 in many cases. I know, I get the complaints!!!


Hes not a rep, hes the technical support for superseal.


----------



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

The thinset should readily saturate the cloth. You should be able to see thru the plastic (sorta) and you should be seeing it turn dark as it becomes saturated. I think you are mixing the thinset way too thick. It doesn't hurt in this case for the peaks to sag a little. 

You do what you want but if I were you I would stay away from any and all of the premixed products. They have proven to be trouble. we see many complaints and nightmares on these boards coming from victims of the premixes.

Are you rolling the mat or doing something to thin and evenly :thumbup:spread the thinset under the mat after you drop it?


----------



## MinConst (Nov 23, 2004)

I've been through 2 or 3 drills mixing mud. Bought Heavy duty 1/2" one at Harbor freight for 20 bucks and it works good. When it burns up I'll get another.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Once i put the superseal on the thinset, i start in the middle and use a trowel to push the mat into the thinset. Once im done with that i use a little end of a 2x4 and do it all over again. I pushed hard enough to start driping swet, so im sure i pushed it in there good.

Now that im done your making me paranoid lol. Im prety sure that i installed it correctly. I can see why you would want the thinset a little more watery now. Whats the worst that can happen at this point? What if there are a couple small 1 inch areas that arent 100% darker then others?

Is there a way to see if i did all this correctly by saturday morning?



Bud Cline said:


> The thinset should readily saturate the cloth. You should be able to see thru the plastic (sorta) and you should be seeing it turn dark as it becomes saturated. I think you are mixing the thinset way too thick. It doesn't hurt in this case for the peaks to sag a little.
> 
> You do what you want but if I were you I would stay away from any and all of the premixed products. They have proven to be trouble. we see many complaints and nightmares on these boards coming from victims of the premixes.
> 
> Are you rolling the mat or doing something to thin and evenly :thumbup:spread the thinset under the mat after you drop it?


----------



## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

You can tell right now if it's done correctly. If the thinset hasn't saturated the fabric everywhere the product will not bond.

I am a certified inspector for ceramic and stone tile installations. Claims come in about DITRA from time to time. Each and every time someone has alleged the DITRA has failed an invasive inspection of the circumstances shows that the DITRA was not installed properly because the thinset was too thick and the fabric did not get saturated.


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Well the only problem i think i ran into is my thinset. I followed the directions on the bag and now im finding out i should of went a little thinner (notched edge slope a little). Im including photos for people that have done subfloor with ditra or superseal to give me opinions. I rather have to pull up and install new now then when the tiles are in right!

http://brazco.com/1.jpg
http://brazco.com/2.jpg
http://brazco.com/3.jpg


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Ok, im pulling up the superseal and scraping the thinset off, everything is coming off fairly easy since the thinset isnt very dry yet.

Now to do it properly! My questions.


First off, i had a couple smaller peices of superseal cut, should i avoid smaller strips this round? what is the minimum size that i should have?
Im going to try to use a better modified thinset or mix my own. What are the recomendations of products? My store choices are HD, home hardware, and rona. Im sure they carry the same in these stores in other areas. I was thinking kerabond dry-set with its liquid aditive like angus suggested. Does this dry faster?
As for the thickness of the thinset, i was going to mix small batchs like I did before, but after the first mix i was going to use a small hand trowel and scrap peice of wood and test it out to see if the thinset notches will start to sag. Should i test after the first mix or after the 10 minutes? Also should it start sagging a few seconds after i notch it?
The plywood is now a little wet from the thinset, should i wait till its completly dry before doing anything? Its also a little gray, should this be ok or will i need to lightly sand it or anything?
Thanks for the help guys, ill take my time this second time around


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

First off, i hade a couple smaller peices of superseal cut, should i avoid smaller strips this round? what is the minimum size that i should have?
*Try to keep the amount of seams to a minimum

*Im going to try to use a better modified thinset or mix my own. What are the recomendations of products? My store choices are HD, home hardware, and rona. Im sure they carry the same in these stores in other areas. I was thinking kerabond dry-set with its liquid aditive like angus suggested. Does this dry faster?
*Kerabond + Keralastic is perhaps the best thinset for this application.

*As for the thickness of the thinset, i was going to mix small batchs like I did before, but after the first mix i was going to use a small hand trowel and scrap peice of wood and test it out to see if the thinset notches will start to sag. Should i test after the first mix or after the 10 minutes? Also should it start sagging a few secondsafter i notch it?
*Mixing the thinset a bit more watery than normal will help it permeate into the superseal fabric better. Not slushy but not thick either. You've been given plenty of advice on this step. It's not rocket science. **You need to use your judgment on this step. 

* The plywood is now a little wet from the thinset, should i wait till its completly dry before doing anything?
*This will be just fine. I typically mist plywood with a spray bottle before laying thinset anyway.*


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Thank god, i though maybe i would have to change my plywood floor or wait till its dry to begin. I know im asking allot about all this and the thickness of the thinset, just paranoid to screw this up again.

When i push the superseal into the thinset, should it penetrate through the cloth or just prety much into it? Just make sure its all black from the top view once im done?

On another note, im taking picture as i go of the underside of the superseal and the floor. Ill post the images here after so you guys can reference this thread for what not to do :whistling2:


----------



## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

When i push the superseal into the thinset, should it penetrate through the cloth or just prety much into it? Just make sure its all black from the top view once im done?
*The superseal needs 100% coverage, however you want to define that.*


----------



## simonb (Aug 30, 2007)

Ok i just took a ride to all 3 stores, cant find any keralastic anywhere. So this brings me back to should i use premix modified


----------

