# AFCI breaker won't reset. Help me troubleshoot.



## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Today I was operating a carpet cleaner in my sunroom. (WOW is it gross how dirty carpets get). The Carpet Doctor draws 11 Amps. At the same time I had a ceiling fan running on high, a Plasma screen tv on standby (off, but not really off, right), one light fixture. I had to park the carpet cleaner while it was on for @ 20 seconds and it bogged down. Then the AFCI breaker blew (BTW 20 Amp AFCI circuit that I ran and was inspected and permitted). 

I removed almost all the loads (the ceiling fan is only operated by remote - so I can't take it off high). The breaker will reset but then after 2-5 seconds it snaps off. 

Because it was quick and easy I pulled the three receptacles that were in use at the time to look for something suspicious. Nothing obvious was wrong. Where should I look next?

Help! Thanks!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> The breaker will reset but then after 2-5 seconds it snaps off.


Yes, Ma'am, I will try. :yes:

If you disconnect the #12 wire from the AFCI output and it still trips I think it is almost certainly defective.

Watch for arc-flash and shock danger. Work deliberately and carefully.

Maybe the manuf. has a trip curve posted somewhere for this breaker. One of the inputs to this curve would be arc duration [?] and the other is current vs. time. For a regular breaker a two second trip time might mean a 3x overcurrent; 60A.

Maybe there is a running motor somewhere on this circuit, the brushes of which are failing. Ceiling fans don't have brushes, I think.


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## xxPaulCPxx (Dec 2, 2006)

I've hear lots of complaints on other board about AFI's failing, it's possible yours just did. The simplest timeswise - but expensive - is to pull your existing AFI breaker and put in a new one. I'll bet that fixes it.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

If you disconnect the wire from the breaker, and it still trips, then the AFCI has gone bad and will need replaced.

If it doesn't trip with the wire disconnected, than probably a loose connection somewhere in the circuit started to burn under the load from the carpet cleaner, and the AFCI is doing it's job. If a loose connection started to burn, it'd probably be arcing now under any load at all.

If the AFCI only trips with the wire attached, I'd check all the splices and connections through the whole circuit before trying to reset it anymore.


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

If you have another AFCI try swapping the wires/breakers

If the 2nd AFCI trips its something in the wiring


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok, thanks for the suggestions. Here's what I'm going to try:

1. *disconnect the #12 wire from the AFCI output and it still trips I think it is almost certainly defective. * What exactly am I disconnecting? The hot/black?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> Ok, thanks for the suggestions. Here's what I'm going to try:
> 
> 1. *disconnect the #12 wire from the AFCI output and it still trips I think it is almost certainly defective. * What exactly am I disconnecting? The hot/black?


Yes, that's the AFCI 'output', under the screw terminal. 
There won't be voltage on that disconnected black wire unless you've got some really knotty problems. One day at a time. 

Since arcs throw off electromagnetic energy at all frequencies and since house wiring acts as an antenna I'm wondering if an arc on another circuit anywhere in the house can trip this AFCI.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Yes, that's the AFCI 'output', under the screw terminal.*Roger - I will give this a try.*
> There won't be voltage on that disconnected black wire unless you've got some really knotty problems. *Hope not, since I ran the circuit. :wink:* One day at a time.
> 
> Since arcs throw off electromagnetic energy at all frequencies and since house wiring acts as an antenna I'm wondering if an arc on another circuit anywhere in the house can trip this AFCI.*Unlikely, since the wonky circuit is sitting on top of another AFCI breaker/circuit that I also ran and is working just fine. *


:furious: I hate things like this.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Since you mention that the tripping AFCI is directly on top of another AFCI in the panel, you might want to think about this as well:

I have heard that sometimes when AFCIs are stacked together in a panel, the heat rising from one breaker can cause problems with the one above it. I believe the AFCIs get warmer than traditional breakers, due to the electronics inside. I'm not saying this is your problem here, but it's something to think about if you can't find anything else wrong. I have heard of people arranging their panels to keep some distance between AFCI breakers, in order to keep them cooler.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

You need to disconnect both black and white wires from your AFI breaker for defective testing. 
(do not disconnect the curly white wire from the neutral bar)

If the breaker _still_ trips, it's bad ---> go get another one.

If the breaker holds with both wires disconnected, then re-connect the white wire first, and see if that has any effect. 

Finally, re-connect the black wire, and report the results here.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

McSteve said:


> I have heard that sometimes when AFCIs are stacked together in a panel, the heat rising from one breaker can cause problems with the one above it.


Not only that. 

Space flight latching relays that worked by themselves were causing each other to trip when crammed together. 

Their magnetic shielding, if any, was not enough. It made the techs crazy until they caught on to this. Apparently the relay manuf. didn't foresee this usage.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> You need to disconnect both black and white wires from your AFI breaker for defective testing.
> (do not disconnect the curly white wire from the neutral bar)
> 
> If the breaker _still_ trips, it's bad ---> go get another one.
> ...


Sparks - thanks for the explicit advice. It's been a super long day, so tonight DH and I are watching TV in the dark - Good thing I wired another circuit to the room. I'll run the test first thing in the AM.

THANKS THANKS THANKS


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

McSteve brings up a good point.

Unloaded or loaded, the AFCI electronics will draw power , called 'quiescent current'. 
For 2w dissipation at 120v this current would be 2/120 = 17 mA. To measure this you'll probably need to remove the AFCI and use clip leads.

The tricky part is getting the manuf. to cough up a range of current values that indicate a healthy AFCI. 
If you have several identical units you could get an idea of the current ranges for units that are OK.

True RMS values are more accurate here because the current waveform is not going to be a sine wave.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> You need to disconnect both black and white wires from your AFI breaker for defective testing.
> (do not disconnect the curly white wire from the neutral bar)
> 
> If the breaker _still_ trips, it's bad ---> go get another one.
> ...


 Breaker passed these tests. And by that I mean it did not indicate a 'fail'. Going to Lowes in the AM to get another one and try it, just in case. I could get lucky, right. :furious: Today's craptastic misery-fest was also coupled with my lawn-guy breaking the wire on my invisible dog fence. Found out when my neighbor called to tell me she saw one of my pups running loose!
:furious:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Check out this 8 minute video
http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produ...l/AFCI/Pages/Intelli_Arc_Diagnostic_Tool.aspx

Even with one of these gadgets it's probably difficult to troubleshoot.

The vacuum cleaner late in the video seems to cause the problem but the tech decides it's the fault of the lamp. I must have missed something. . .?

After watching the procedure at the end of the video, it seems to me if you just use a battery AM radio tuned between stations, and turn on and off each load with the radio held nearby, whatever makes the loudest 'pop' or crash of static is suspect.
Then repeat while moving each switch very slowly.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks - been a long day. Drinking is on the menu for the rest of the ..... weekend.


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Leah.,

What brand AFCI breaker you have in your load centre I know there are couple brand on early models are little wonky the later one are better.

Merci,Marc


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Let's say your AFCI feeds outlets #1 through #10, with #10 being farthest downstream. You know that when all 10 are connected the AFCI trips and when none are connected the AFCI holds.

Disconnect the downstream outlets at #5. If the AFCI holds, the fault is downstream of #6.

If the AFCI still trips, disconnect the AFCI output and connect #6 outlet with a 50' section of Romex to the AFCI output so that the #1 through #5 section is bypassed and disconnected at each end. 

By successively halving the sections that are powered or disconnected, and if there is only one fault present, this method should lead you to the fault location.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Let's say your AFCI feeds outlets #1 through #10, with #10 being farthest downstream. You know that when all 10 are connected the AFCI trips and when none are connected the AFCI holds.
> 
> Disconnect the downstream outlets at #5. If the AFCI holds, the fault is downstream of #6.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is, in fact, the exact type of troubleshooting advice I need. :wallbash:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Forgot step numero uno: first just hook up 50' of undamaged Romex to the AFCI and see that it doesn't trip.

I e-mailed Siemens for info about their arc diagnostic gadget. 
50-50 they condescend to answer me.

And. . .Siemens comes through! 

The question was referring to the video, and here is their answer.

"
The lamp is the actu cause of the arc. 

for the breaker / tool to trip, there needs to be a draw of over 5 amps on the circuit that is creating an arc. 

the breaker is reading the arc but will not trip until there is sufficient current being drawn on that circuit. 

the vacuum cleaner draws enough current to trip the device if an arc is present elsewhere. 

If the vacuum cleaner were run without the lamp on, there would not have been a trip...
"

So the AFCI is an AND gate; if 
I > 5A 
AND 
arc 
THEN trip.

Which means you can substitute an arcless load that draws more than 5A for the vacuum cleaner while you troubleshoot.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> Forgot step numero uno: first just hook up 50' of undamaged Romex to the AFCI and see that it doesn't trip.
> 
> I e-mailed Siemens for info about their arc diagnostic gadget.
> 50-50 they condescend to answer me.


Siemens AFCI's have built in diagnostics.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

brric said:


> Siemens AFCI's have built in diagnostics.


That tells you it was a GF or an arc that tripped it? Two LEDs, right?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> That tells you it was a GF or an arc that tripped it? Two LEDs, right?


Oui that is correct it have two leds so it will tell you which type of fault.

Merci,Marc


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> Oui that is correct it have two leds so it will tell you which type of fault.
> 
> Merci,Marc


La fin du monde est proche
Nah, just kidding. . .:laughing:

For the GF testing a 50 mA fuse in series with an AC milliammeter may come in handy.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok. Finally sobering up. My weekends usually last through Monday (DH's day off). I bought some extra AFCI breakers this weekend and I am going to do the following in the AM.

1. Disconnect the ceiling fan
2. Replace tripping breaker with new one
3. See what happens. 

THANKS THANKS THANKS for all the help!


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> La fin du monde est proche
> Nah, just kidding. . .:laughing:
> 
> For the GF testing a 50 mA fuse in series with an AC milliammeter may come in handy.


And just what would you do with these?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> La fin du monde est proche
> Nah, just kidding. . .:laughing:
> 
> For the GF testing a 50 mA fuse in series with an AC milliammeter may come in handy.


Yoyizit.,

I will not use that kind of methold of GF testing and the way I do in France we run the megger that will take care of it very fast it is a simple tool once you know to use it in safe manner.

I use it just about everyday in France and in Wisconsin I used it pretty often especally hard to trace fault on AFCI useage.

Merci,Marc


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

brric said:


> And just what would you do with these?


Put them in series with the ground wire, assuming the leakage is being returned through the ground wire.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Yoyizit said:


> Put them in series with the ground wire, assuming the leakage is being returned through the ground wire.


Why all the BS? If the current is through the ground wire simply removing it from the buss and touching it to the buss after resetting the breaker will trip the AFCI.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

brric said:


> Why all the BS? If the current is through the ground wire simply removing it from the buss and touching it to the buss after resetting the breaker will trip the AFCI.


Yes, if the AFCI is not nuisance-tripping. One OP had AFCI trips because he lived near a radio station. 

The AFCI is a go/no-go device. Having an LED for arcs and another for GFs is an improvement but when you get misleading results it's time to make measurements with meters. 
If those readings also look strange then you need an o'scope.

And I'll check the calibration on my BS filter, sometimes it drifts out of adjustment. . .:laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Yoyizit said:


> And I'll check the calibration on my BS filter, sometimes it drifts out of adjustment. . .:laughing:



Donc { Hey } Yoyizit here the meter you looking for .,,,










Merci,Marc


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> Donc { Hey } Yoyizit here the meter you looking for .,,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here in the DC area that needle would be pegged continuously. :laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Donc Yoyizit I think we better stop right there before mod squad nail our butt.

Merci,Marc


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Well, glad you guys are having fun in my absence. :laughing: Today I:
1. Cut the power;
2. Disconnected my ceiling fan;
3. Installed new AFCI breaker;
4. Powered up
:thumbup:

So, can I assume that my fan was causing the breaker to trip? It's still disconnected, because DH will be pleased if I can get the light fixture and recs working on the circuit, the fan can wait. 

I have an issue that is worthy of some further discussion, I hope:

When the breaker first failed the fan was on 'high'. The fan was a open-box and we had to buy are remote for it, because it came with no controls. I installed power directly to it and use the remote, exclusively, to control it.
So when it is reconnected is it on 'high'? And is that causing the problem?

On a better note, I completed (almost) an install of two circuits to my front porch exterior. Two ceiling fans are cooling things off and I can plug in all sorts of stuff!

Thanks for the thoughts!


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> 1. Cut the power;
> 2. Disconnected my ceiling fan;
> 3. Installed new AFCI breaker;
> 4. Powered up
> ...


*1* Why not a combo of an oversensitive AFCI and a fan?
Ceiling fans are supposed to pull 0.5A so this doesn't meet the Siemens standard for 'current draw + arc' trip.
Fan motors don't use brushes [?], so no arcing. You have a link to your fan? 
The speed control ckt may generate something that looks like an arc to the AFCI.

You could mount your fan on a test stand, blades horiz., and hook it up with clip leads or Romex and test it with the new AFCI. 
Try it with all else off on the circuit, then all else on.

We could make this into a mini-series. I'll get Julia Roberts to play you, if she's available. :laughing:


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

http://www.buyreiker.com/default.aspx?page=6 Ceiling fan.

FYI - Square D load center and breakers. 

Also, I believe that the combo that caused the fail was: ceiling fan on high + carpet cleaner (11Amps) + sensitive breaker (?) = fail.

My neighbor is an aspiring electrician, so he is psyched about rigging up a mock test.


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## kbsparky (Sep 11, 2008)

Carpet cleaner or other similar items such as vacuum cleaners are prime suspects with nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers.

Not sure about the fan remote receiver's contribution to your problems.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

From
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=patent+afci+"current"+arc&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

this link
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090262471
says that 800w or more [7A] of suddenly applied load can cause nuisance trips.

"Nuisance tripping" takes place when an AFCI generates a trip signal with no actual arcing taking place. . . .that with no stipulation prohibiting the separation of lighting and general-use outlets with regard to the branch circuits that feed them, it is common practice to combine these loads within rooms. It is then possible and probable that a single load or group of loads exceeding 800 watts can be simultaneously activated from a control station, thus creating a nuisance trip of the corresponding AFCI breaker. "


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## Scuba_Dave (Jan 16, 2009)

False trips (in the past) are one reason some people do not use GFCI's to this day
I've already had AFCI's trip due to some older lamps
There is nothing wrong with the lamps, they cause a false trip
This is going to lead to more people refusing to use AFCI's or removing them after inspection


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

There is at least one AFCI patent, possibly assigned to Pass & Seymour, that counts pulses to detect an arc 
but does so outside of the part of the cycle that dimmers use to chop up the sine wave, so here is at least one connection between fans with speed controls [a sort of dimmer] and AFCI tripping.

So AFCIs can have trouble discriminating valid arcs from the pulses that dimmers use during normal operation.


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## jtogle (May 26, 2010)

*What is an AFCI?*

I know about GFCI's but what are AFCI's?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupts. Arcing is the main cause of electrical house fires - the AFCIs are now part of NEC requirements because they help keep us safe.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

jtogle said:


> I know about GFCI's but what are AFCI's?


Here's one take on what they are
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...nec+afci+nuisance&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

You will probably have more false trips if you have dimmers or speed controls, home automation circuitry, surge protectors, motors, old refrigerators, old lamps, old switches, current draw on that branch circuit of more than 5 amps, and you live near a radio station.

How many false trips per year are too much?

The good news is that if you rent or buy a $600 device, after some tedious troubleshooting you have a good chance of finding the problem, and then you get to buy new electrical appliances to replace the old ones that seemed to be working.

Do the words 'cash cow' come to mind?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

OK - I disconnected the fan and replaced the AFCI and had sucess. Yeah! DH talked me into re-connecting the fan and it worked. Until the he adjusted the speed of the fan - circuit failed when I turned on an additional light.

So, I replaced the fan with a new one today - popped in a new AFCI ($$) and circuit held til I tried turning on the additional light. I inspected the light switch and there appears to be no problem there. I guess I need to pull the light fixture? I'm guessing I have some arc problem - troubleshooting = SUCKS!


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Pulled light fixture - no visible damage all connections secure. Breaker is all trippy all the time. *What do I do next?*


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's the breakdown:
1. New AFCI breaker working for several days with light and recs working.
2. Cut power re-connected ceiling fan.
3. breaker continues to work until husband adjusts speed with remote. Breaker goes.
4. Disconnect ceiling fan - breaker holds until I turn on a light switch for another light on circuit.
5. Pull fan - replace with new fan - breaker holds until I turn on light switch.
6. WTF?

Relevant facts:
1. Pulled switch that controls the light fixture that has been causing breaker to throw - no visible problem.
2. Pulled light fixture - all connections seem good.
*Please help, I'm feeling like an idiot.*


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## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

Sounds to me you may have a neutral issue and not a arc fault issue. A single pole arc fault requires a dedicated neutral like a gfci and if you tap off that neutral to feed something on another circuit or use it as a MWBC you will have this problem.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's the next set of facts:
1. Pulled new fan
2. Circuit holds with load (box fan in rec) - this tells me I have some problem with the part of the circuit that includes the fan? Right?

3. Breaker blows when light fixture is switched on. - So, should I replace the switch?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

sparks1up said:


> Sounds to me you may have a neutral issue and not a arc fault issue. A single pole arc fault requires a dedicated neutral like a gfci and if you tap off that neutral to feed something on another circuit or use it as a MWBC you will have this problem.


So what would the neutral problem be? This is NOT a MWBC nor has it been used for any other circuit.


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## sparks1up (May 5, 2010)

When the arc fault trips does the light go out? Not the light on the fan the light that trips the arc fault when turned on?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

sparks1up said:


> When the arc fault trips does the light go out? Not the light on the fan the light that trips the arc fault when turned on?


Here's the sequence with fan disconnected. 
- breaker on
- switch light on
- light comes on - for a fraction of a second - breaker trips.

With light switch in the 'on' position breaker will not reset. With the light 'off' breaker will re-set.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

If you remove the fixture and wire nut the wires in the j-box (isolate them) does throwing the switch still trip the breaker?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

brric said:


> If you remove the fixture and wire nut the wires in the j-box (isolate them) does throwing the switch still trip the breaker?


Ok, I'm a bit slow so may I double check your suggestion:
1. Remove the fixture and wire nut the wires in the jbox - do you mean in the box for the light? 

I'll be trying this in the AM. Was up to 2am last night helping my Dear Husband re-configure his stereo system (he's taking his board exams on thursday and he's a might be jumpy). Trying to chill out tonight. Watching HBOs Band of Brothers. Good stuff.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

Leah Frances said:


> Ok, I'm a bit slow so may I double check your suggestion:
> 1. Remove the fixture and wire nut the wires in the jbox - do you mean in the box for the light?
> 
> I'll be trying this in the AM. Was up to 2am last night helping my Dear Husband re-configure his stereo system (he's taking his board exams on thursday and he's a might be jumpy). Trying to chill out tonight. Watching HBOs Band of Brothers. Good stuff.


Remove the fixture so that nothing is attached to the wires in the j-box in the ceiling and try the switch. If the circuit holds the problem is within the fixture.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

brric said:


> Remove the fixture so that nothing is attached to the wires in the j-box in the ceiling and try the switch. If the circuit holds the problem is within the fixture.


I'll give it a try. Thanks.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

So the new AFCI has changed no symptoms? What make and model is it?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

*WOW - it's been a month since I looked at this*

OK folks -
Today I monkeyed around with this and I'm completely stumped.
today's results:

A. Disconnected ceiling fan - for the meanwhile it's out of the picture. 

B. Disconnected light fixture and nutted it off (tee-hee)
1. Breaker holds when switch thrown
2. box fan connected to rec associated with the circuit runs

C. Reconnect light fixture/ box fan still plugged in
1. breaker switches off when light fixture switch flipped.

D. I pulled the light fixture and wired in a replacement light (just wire and bulb holder)/ box fan plugged in 
1. flipping switch throws breaker. 

E. With box fan removed/ test light connected
1. Breaker holds
2. Plugged in my power inverter for my computer
a. breaker holds
3. Plug in box fan
a. breaker fails

So WTF!!!! I thought it was the light fixture, but it seems to be a load problem. What's going on. 

HELP. I promise I won't wait a month to try and fix it. :whistling2:


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

F. Replaced light fixture
1. breaker fails immediately when switch is thrown.

~ I've pulled the light fixture apart and checked the obvious connections. 

G. Pulled light fixture and nutted it off.
1. Circuit fails with box fan
2. circuit holds with power inverter.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Last detail. Fan works on other circuit.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Need some clarification. . .



Leah Frances said:


> B. Disconnected light fixture and nutted it off (tee-hee)
> Breaker holds when switch thrown
> box fan connected to rec associated with the circuit runs
> aa
> ...


aa box fan only = no problem
bb box fan + this light = problem
1Siemens said you need an arc + a minimum current draw to trip the AFCI

cc box fan + replacement light = problem
See 1 above

dd test light + no box fan = no problem
2 what wattage test lamp?

ee box fan (+ test light?) = problem
see 1 above

ff replacement light (+ box fan?) = problem
see 1 above

gg box fan (+replacement light?) = problem
see 1 above

hh Non AFCI circuit?


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## SleepyDog (Jun 20, 2010)

*Hate to Sugget This But..*

Sounds to me you may have arching in the wiring to the light. Did you recently hang any pictures, mirrors that may have nicked a wire? With only the light on you may not be drawing enough current to flip the breaker. If what I am suggesting is true then with the light on and any high draw device: fan, vacuum, toaster, you would blow. I know you said that it ran for days without the fan but for all those days did you put any high amp devices on the circuit?


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

You might also try wiring the AFCI only to the devices that are tripping it, to eliminate house wiring as the cause.

The next thing is to figure out is if the AFCI is tripping on an arc fault or a ground fault.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughts. 
- The 'other circuit' is also protected with the same type of square D AFCI breaker. 

- There was no construction or other physical trauma laughing to the area - no nail

- This event did start with an high-draw device (carpet cleaner) blowing the breaker. 

- I'm off to get some more romex and I will test from the light fixture directly to the box with no house wiring to test light fixture. 

- then, I'm guessing I'm going to have to do some demolition to fix this mess.  The switch runs behind wood paneling that I will have to tear off, and I'll have to bang some holes in the ceiling. GRRRRRR.

THANKS AGAIN.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Well we can at least rule out a few things:

A. I ran a wire directly from the breaker to the switch
1. light on = no fail

B. I wired a rec into the test circuit
1. light on = no fail
2. fan load on rec with light on = no fail

So, can I conclude that my failure is NOT in the lighting portion of the circuit? If so, then YEAH! I don't have to pull out the ceiling (I hope). 

Guess I'm pulling receptacles?


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Another Test:
C. I isolated the lighting portion of the circuit at a JBOX
1. added the ceiling fan to the load = no fail

So, lighting circuit = no fail.


So, since I have a space in my box I put the lighting circuit on it's own 20 Amp circuit and now I can test the recs on their own.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

Leah Frances said:


> - This event did start with an high-draw device (carpet cleaner) blowing the breaker.


Then that device is valuable as a test load. Things that don't trip it don't give much info in this effort.

If you e-mail Square D they might have a tutorial on doing just this kind of troubleshooting. When you write them, call yourself LF Associates or sumpin'. 
If you get one please post it.


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

It may not be any problems with the wiring or devices in the house. Manufacturers of the AFCI breakers are having problems. It seems that radio frequency towers are causing the problems. I myself had this problem and Cutler-Hammer sent me new AFCI breakers that have been made especially for this problem. Installed them and have not had any problems.


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

HIVOLT said:


> It seems that radio frequency towers are causing the problems.
> 
> Cutler-Hammer sent me new AFCI breakers that have been made especially for this problem.


Can you get identifying numbers for these? I'd like to look up the patent on this.
I'd think TV stations would be more of a problem, AM radio not so much. TV wavelengths are comparable to the size of a house.

Seems like these guys are owned by Eaton, so I e-mailed them.


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## HIVOLT (Dec 17, 2009)

All I have are the catalog numbers for the new AFCI breakers.

CH115CAFA and CH120CAFA
BRC115CAFA and BRC120CAFA

I have a flier somewhere with the notice. If I can find it I will post it for you.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

Yoyizit said:


> Then that device is valuable as a test load. Things that don't trip it don't give much info in this effort.
> 
> If you e-mail Square D they might have a tutorial on doing just this kind of troubleshooting. When you write them, call yourself LF Associates or sumpin'.
> If you get one please post it.


Yeah - rented the Carpet Doctor - so I don't have it for a test. But I've got a powerful heat gun that likes to make things trip. 

I'll just sign my name to an email to Square D. L. F. Wade, attorney at law.
:laughing:


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## Yoyizit (Jul 11, 2008)

HIVOLT said:


> All I have are the catalog numbers for the new AFCI breakers.
> 
> CH115CAFA and CH120CAFA
> BRC115CAFA and BRC120CAFA
> ...


Thanks - I expect in a day or so they'll answer my e-mail about RFI/EMI and AFCIs.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

I expect that I have a failure somewhere in my circuit, amongst the receps.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Leah Frances said:


> I expect that I have a failure somewhere in my circuit, amongst the receps.


If you haven't done so yet, go through the entire circuit and check all wire connections. A long time ago, one of the guys suggested you stressed a connection to the point of causing it to arc. That may be the culprit. Since there shouldn't be any hidden j-boxes, hopefully you can track the circuit from end to end and remake the joints.

I would suggest actually removing any wire nuts, looking at the wires for any signs of arcing (burn marks) and remaking the joint.. If a connection under a screw is loose at all, it could also cause arcing so make sure all screw terminals are tightened as well.

Obviously this is all with the power off to this circuit.

Do you have a non-contact electrical tester? It is a handy thing to have. You can use it for a quick check of a circuit for power. I would not trust my life with it but if you use a quality tester, it is generally quite dependable and it generally gives false positives more than a false negative.

Although I generally do not care for GB tools, I have had very good success with this specific tester:

http://www.militarytimes.com/xml/offduty/technology/offduty_tools_032210w/032010od_tools_tester_800.JPG


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

nap - I'm not a big fan of the GB either. I use a Santronics non-contact tester - it has a audible and visual indicator. I am a DEVOTED user of it. *AND I always test my tester before every test. *


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