# lots of questions re insulation - need to drastically lower my heating bill



## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Air seal prior to insulation of the attic. 



What is the foundation wall made of? 1" of foam is a bit light for your climate, but you can certainly add more. 


What is over the crawlspace floor?


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Is your garage insulated? I'm betting it's contributing to a huge chunk of your heating bill.

What kind of heating equipment do you have? How many cubic meters of gas does the house use in January and February? 

See if there are any rebates in your area for energy efficiency upgrades. In ontario enbridge has a program, there may be something similar in alberta.

If you still have one or more natural draft/standing pilot forced air furnaces, upgrade after doing insulation upgrades.

A 96% 'er will save 30 to 40% over a standing pilot furnace.

Heating equipment should be downsized after reducing heat loss significantly.

For insulation, the law of diminishing returns applies.

7" batts in an attic is equivalent to around R22.

Going up to R50-60 will save a very modest amount of energy - probably under 10%.

Is it still worth better insulating the attic? Yes.

But have air sealing done first; batts should be temporarily removed and the condition of vapour barrier around penetrations checked. 

Major attic leakage points: The hatch, around chimney and b-vents, plumbing stack, exhaust fans. Holes for electrical. (pot lights can be the worst)

Do not bother putting batts over what you have, impossible to do it without gaps.

Have fiberglass loose fill blown over.



> Same question during cold weather - should it be same, colder or warmer? I have a digital thermogun, so I can easily measure termperature - just need to know what I am looking for. My plan is to add FB insulation bats between the floor joists - is this a good idea? Will I need to add vapour barrier over the bats after install?


It's not a good idea.

Floor joists cause thermal bridging and the vapour barrier goes on the warm side. Impossible to put a barrier properly between floor joists.

Any heating lines going through the crawlspace will still loose heat to the crawl space. If the crawl space is made colder, you can get condensation on some surfaces.

Just make sure the sill-plate (where house meets foundation)/rimjoist area well sealed and put thicker wall insulation.

You may be able to add foam by simply gluing it to the existing 1" with the appropriate adhesive.

You'll want at least R-15. Foam is R-5 per inch.


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## DanDaMan (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks guys for the quick replies. Below some answers.

"What is over the crawlspace floor?" - I have either 12"x12" slate tiles over the crawl space, or 1/2" hardwood flooring - so in both cases I'd have a plywood 5/8" floor, plus 3/8" subfloor, and then the tile or hardwood.

"Is your garage insulated? I'm betting it's contributing to a huge chunk of your heating bill. - It is insulated at the perimeter walls, but I shouyld have clarified" - it has its own *** furnace but I do not run it the majority of time so I leave it unheated - it gets around 5C in the winter - it never gets below zero being I have my hot water tank and aqua heater/burner (for the 2nd and 3rd level water heater system) - so with the pilots and constantly burning the garage never gets below 5C.

"What kind of heating equipment do you have? How many cubic meters of gas does the house use in January and February?" - I have a combination of heating. First as mentioned the 3 car garage has its own *** but I normally leave it off. The ground level has another *** furnace which is mounted in the crawl space. The 2nd and 3rd levels are heated with the aqua burner and water wall heaters. But I also have 4 fireplaces inside the house, three which are regular wood fireplaces and one a wood burning stove. We normally do not use the 3 wood fireplaces but the wood burning stove (on the ground level) does get used as it is not only beautiful but also puts out lots of heat. Looking at my last Jan/Feb bill, I used 75 GJ in one month (bill was $650 for the gas).

"Is it still worth better insulating the attic? Yes. Do not bother putting batts over what you have, impossible to do it without gaps" - so putting this 6" (likely R22) over top of my existing 6" bats in the attic will have no impact? Even if I pack it tight and stuff it in any gaps I see? I realize blown in loose FB would be best, but I got this 6" bats for cheap/free, and now have lots of it - I'd rather use it now as long as I know it will at least have some benefit

"Adding the 6" bats in my crawl space between the joists - It's not a good idea. Floor joists cause thermal bridging and the vapour barrier goes on the warm side. Impossible to put a barrier properly between floor joists" - so if I do add this used 6" insulation between the floor joists, will it help even a little or is it just a total waste of time? As mentioned above, I got tons of this used 6" bats so would like to use it, either in the attic or crawl (don't have enough for both, but enough for one or the other). If I do use it in the crawl space, do I need to put some vapour barrier over top of the bats? I don't think so being it shouldn't get wet, but to add more complexity, the crawl space during summer does get moisture from the ground. The ground is actually natural dirt (no concrete floor, and no vapour barrier on the ground) - the house is a lake house, so has a high water table - during the summer months the dirt does get moist (not muddy or soft, but you can see it isn't dry dirt either). I do have a permanent dehumidifier in the crawl to maintain the moisture.

"Just make sure the sill-plate (where house meets foundation)/rimjoist area well sealed and put thicker wall insulation" - I will look into that.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

Wood burning fireplaces can leak like sieve, seal the dampers if you haven't. 

If they're on exterior walls and just brick construction, find a way to insulate.

Open wood fireplaces are totally useless as heating appliances and aren't worth keeping as "functional".

The gas furnaces - what efficiency are they?

(look up how to identify)

I'm assuming you have ducts in your crawlspace.

The aqua-burner, do you mean a boiler?

Efficiency/type?



> so putting this 6" (likely R22) over top of my existing 6" bats in the attic will have no impact? Even if I pack it tight and stuff it in any gaps I see? I realize blown in loose FB would be best, but I got this 6" bats for cheap/free, and now have lots of it - I'd rather use it now as long as I know it will at least have some benefit


There's benefit for sure but it's not as good as blown in.

*

Keep in mind a 5000 sq ft house will always have very high utility use.

The usage is absolutely crazy, I calculated 1938 m3 of gas for one month. Granted alberta is cold.

1 m3 = 38.7 MJ.

I'm not familiar with gj/mg so had to convert to m3 of gas or kwh.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

All of the advice above is excellent. The only thing I can add is you have a large complex home and it is difficult from long distance to spend your money in the most effective places. Bringing in a top energy auditor who can sort out where the energy is going and identify the best places to make improvements would be a great place to start. Canada is very advanced in energy efforts and as mentioned your area may have some free or subsidized help.

Best
Bud


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

Read all of this and possibly you can understand how much air sealing and where you should do it in a 30 year old home, but I couldn't.


https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/how-much-fresh-air-does-your-home-need


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DanDaMan said:


> Thanks guys for the quick replies. Below some answers.
> 
> "What is over the crawlspace floor?" - I have either 12"x12" slate tiles over the crawl space, or 1/2" hardwood flooring - so in both cases I'd have a plywood 5/8" floor, plus 3/8" subfloor, and then the tile or hardwood.
> 
> ...


_*"What is over the crawlspace floor?" - I have either 12"x12" slate tiles over the crawl space, or 1/2" hardwood flooring - so in both cases I'd have a plywood 5/8" floor, plus 3/8" subfloor, and then the tile or hardwood. 
*_

Sounds like a basement to me.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Maybe i miss something, tell us more about the crawl space. 

Height, ground cover if any, venting if any. furnace down there?


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## DanDaMan (Sep 12, 2010)

People inquiring about the crawl space, so I'll try to describe.

The house is a full 3 story house (above ground) where the entry level is ~ 1' above ground level. Below this entry level is a ~1600sqft crawl space about 4' high. In the crawl space, it is just foundation all around with no openings or windows other than at one corner above my fireplace where the fireplace concrete/brick structure comes down into the crawl space - here is where four 4" metal pipes stick into the crawl space - I believe these are the venting into the space.

The ground is natural dirt - there is no concrete pad or vapour barrier - there are sections with gravel over the dirt but half at least is pure dirt. Being it is waterfront (lake house), it has a high water table so in the summer months (when the lake is not frozen), the dirt gets visible moist - during winter months it dries up. In the crawl space is where the *** furnace is mounted with ducting running up to the entry level. There are no ducts pointed inside the crawl space. Inside the crawl space you can see the joists for the entry level flooring, and currently there is no insulation between these joists. There is a 1" foam insulation along the concrete foundation perimeter walls but to be honest lots are loose and various sections are missing. There is a sump in the crawl space, which is feed from the weeping tiles around the house and shots the water to the backyard - this sump is generally low/dry except during heavy rain or snow melt season - the sump has never given me issues (never overfilled). Due to the moisture (wet dirt), I keep a dehumidifier running year long - this helped to reduce the size of the dirt that would get wet but didn't eliminate it either. BTW - I do have a radon gas monitor down there that I run year long too, and my radon readings are very low. 

I guess my questions with the crawl space are:

1) how do I confirm if the crawl space is vented or not - what exactly is a vented crawl space anyways. What are the differences in terms of issues and insulation requirements.

2) should I be concerned about the moist dirt? I have checked the wood joists and structure and there are no signs of rot or mold, and no signs of insects or other creatures. 

3) as mentioned, some areas of the crawl have gravel and some exposed dirt - would there be any value to adding gravel to the rest, or should I seriously consider removing the gravel to get down to the dirt and put a proper vapour barrier over it? 

4) if those are vents at the corner, my understanding is that outside air gets drawn into the crawl and then works its way upward throughout the entire house - if this is true, would adding insulation between the joists not help during winter, as the cold air would be less able to work itself upward? How could I tell if the crawl is a significant cause of my high heating costs? For example, during hot weather (ie.25C outside and in the main living area of the house), should the crawl be the same temp, colder or hotter? During cold weather (ie. 0C outside and 19C in the living area due to furnace kicking in), should the crawl be the same, hotter or colder. 

Thanks


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

A vented crawlspace has holes thru the foundation on two sides and you might find insulation under the floor. 

You have a sealed crawlspace that should have a vapour barriers on the ground and run up the perimeter to the top of the foundation. Your 1" of foam is likely not enough.
When sealed the space should be conditioned as part of the house. With the furnace down there the one duct you see will be air for the furnace and I am not sure of the rules on conditioning the space when the furnace does provide heat in the winter.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)




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## DanDaMan (Sep 12, 2010)

Nealtw said:


> A vented crawlspace has holes thru the foundation on two sides and you might find insulation under the floor.
> 
> You have a sealed crawlspace that should have a vapour barriers on the ground and run up the perimeter to the top of the foundation. Your 1" of foam is likely not enough.
> When sealed the space should be conditioned as part of the house. With the furnace down there the one duct you see will be air for the furnace and I am not sure of the rules on conditioning the space when the furnace does provide heat in the winter.


Thanks - when you say a sealed crawl should be conditioned as part of the house - does that mean it should be roughly the same temp as the main living areas? How would it do that in the winter being there are no heat vents directed to the crawl - yes the furnace is down there but all vents lead upstairs to the ground level. 

What would be the impact if I install the insulation between the floor joists in the crawl - would that help or make things worst.

I'll read more on the vapour barrier - would adding this also help my heating costs, or is this more to prevent mold and moisture.

Thanks


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

DanDaMan said:


> Thanks - when you say a sealed crawl should be conditioned as part of the house - does that mean it should be roughly the same temp as the main living areas? How would it do that in the winter being there are no heat vents directed to the crawl - yes the furnace is down there but all vents lead upstairs to the ground level.
> 
> What would be the impact if I install the insulation between the floor joists in the crawl - would that help or make things worst.
> 
> ...


 I am not so familiar but the idea is to keep it warm and insulate the foundation. But a vapour barrier on the dirt is must no matter what else you do.Everyone seems to have a different plan on what should be done.
You might do best talking to local inspector for the city to see what they want. I think I might track the temperature down there over a winter before I did much more than a vapour barrier.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> There are no ducts pointed inside the crawl space.


What do you mean?

The ducts run through the crawl but there are no vents?


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## DanDaMan (Sep 12, 2010)

user_12345a said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> The ducts run through the crawl but there are no vents?


Yes, the ducting run through the crawl but there is no vent to feed the heat into the crawl. So basically the crawl has no heating (other than the heat generated from the furnace when it is burning). Is this a concern? Still trying to determine if adding the insulation in the floor joists would be beneficial being it is sealed - or just leave as is and focus more on the vapour barrier


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

With ducts in the crawl space you do not want to convert it into a cold zone. It won't even work well due to heat loss from the ducts. 

There are other reasons I posted in a previous reply.

You want to insulate the entire crawlspace properly and have a barrier put on the floor.

3" foam total should be enough - maybe a 2" glued to the existing foam with the adhesive made for that.

The savings will be modest but it's worth doing.

You may really benefit from hiring an energy auditor who can do thermal imaging and blower door test.

*

What efficiency are the furnaces and boiler?

Natural draft looks like this:









55 to 70% efficiency.

Some have spark ignition, some have flu dampers to bump the efficiency up.

Induced draft 80% -> exhaust is metal pipe, no draft hood shown in picture.

High efficiency, 90%+ -> plastic pipe exhaust.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

Saving money costs money. You have a huge house so it is natural to cost to heat.  There are many posts here who called the fuel company to do an audit of their houses. I think that would be the best action for you since diy-ing this can become convoluted. You need someone there who can list problems and give you a whole picture. People in the forum have knowledge and suggestions but I doubt you will change your heating source for efficiency, for example. For one, you will not see the savings for many years. If you change from 80 to 90% efficiency, actual heating bill may not change that much and will take more than a decade before you see the savings and after 3 decades or so, it becomes time to change the appliance. I've found that is usually how it works and there is no magical ways to saving big money.


2 ways that really matter could be. 1. if a new siding is planned, covering the outside with foam board that can minimize air leaks and add little more insulation.
2. attic is usually leaky, esp with venting issues these days. So it becomes important to separate the attic from the living spaces below with insulation and air blocks.
3. tighter windows but big money to replace.


Checking the attic for air leaks and adding insulation is the only cheaper project that adds real value. Another important point is that insulation does NOT stop heat loss. Insulation slows it. I read somewhere that r-60 attic is about the max you can insulate and there is no value beyond it.


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## DanDaMan (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks guys for the advice. 

I haven't checked the efficiency of my gas furnace nor aqua boiler, but as mentioned those type of upgrades takes 10+ years to recoup the costs and I'm not looking for spending multi-thousands right now - just looking for easy and low cost items, but ones that will have the biggest impact. Unfortunately there is no local service available that will do energy audits for free - did some looking and seems these are high cost. Though I did buy a FLIR a few months ago, so will try to do my own energy assessment.

Based on feedback, I will not put the insulation into the crawl space (between the joists). Instead I will buy more foam boards and install against the concrete foundtation - I also know there are a few openings for piping and electrical, so I will add insulating foam and do my best to make it air tight down there. As for the dirt ground, does anyone know what the impact would be if I were to dig down 2-3' to make the height down there 7'? Seems like I need to remove the gravel sections anyways, plus the ground is not level, so thinking I'll first dig out a few feet, then add the vapour barrier and maybe finish it with gravel afterwards?

Gonna now use the insulation I bought for the attic - I'll first ensure the existing insulation is still tight and try to seal air leaks - then I'll add the new insulation over top of the existing in opposite direction. I think the attic is where I'll see the biggest impact. Anyone have some advice on air sealing the attic or how to best identify where air is leaking from?

Thanks


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

DanDaMan said:


> *need to drastically lower my heating bill*



So you want to drastically reduce your heating bill without spending any money to improve the efficiency of your home. That would be a neat trick.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

The big savings is usually found in the attic. Air sealing the ceiling from above is a good place to start.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

> I haven't checked the efficiency of my gas furnace nor aqua boiler, but as mentioned those type of upgrades takes 10+ years to recoup the costs and I'm not looking for spending multi-thousands right now


If your heating equipment is low efficiency - standing pilot with open draft hood - continuous flow of air up chimney when off, it's all original to the house and will need to be replaced soon anyway.

The money is not spent just to save energy. 

Do you expect a roi on new roof? Do you wait until it starts leaking, especially when there are other benefits ie improving attic ventilation at the same time, peace of mind.

You won't save more than 10% without spending thousands of dollars.



> If you change from 80 to 90% efficiency, actual heating bill may not change that much and will take more than a decade


Doesn't make sense to replace a furnace to go from 80 to 95%+ unless it's at end of life.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

80-90 % were numbers pulled off the air.:smile: I would agree that going from 80 to even highest efficiencies would not be good money spent. My old house boiler is maybe from the 70-80's with wopping big standing flame for a pilot. In summers, with no heating, I don't see the need (in gas bills-nj) for more efficient pilot or changing to glow igniters.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

I think the important thing on the furnace is to be pulling in outside air for combustion. For every cubic foot of conditioned air that is used for combustion, another cubic foot of cool, crisp Calgary air will be pulled into the house.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

carpdad said:


> 80-90 % were numbers pulled off the air.:smile: I would agree that going from 80 to even highest efficiencies would not be good money spent. My old house boiler is maybe from the 70-80's with wopping big standing flame for a pilot. In summers, with no heating, I don't see the need (in gas bills-nj) for more efficient pilot or changing to glow igniters.


the open draft hoods and thick heat exchangers of old furnaces and boilers what make them inefficient.

they're 70 to 80% steady state, but take a long time to hit steady state when the burners turn on. Seasonal efficiency is 55 to 65%, maybe a bit higher (70%?) with spark ignition.

when they shut off, a lot of the heat in the boiler or furnace goes up the chimney. there's a constant flow of air moving from the burner inlets to the exhaust outlet which strips the heat exchange surfaces of heat at the end of each cycle. this air is replaced by cold air from outside.


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## FM3 (Aug 12, 2019)

DanDaMan said:


> "Is it still worth better insulating the attic? Yes. Do not bother putting batts over what you have, impossible to do it without gaps" - so putting this 6" (likely R22) over top of my existing 6" bats in the attic will have no impact? Even if I pack it tight and stuff it in any gaps I see? I realize blown in loose FB would be best, but I got this 6" bats for cheap/free, and now have lots of it - I'd rather use it now as long as I know it will at least have some benefit


What?

It's common to add layers of batts. You lay the second layer perpendicular to the first. It covers gaps. 

And if your first layer of batts sit between 2x4 wood framing/studs, the second layer covers those too. Those 2x4s are only R5.

It's surprisingly hard to find recommended R values for Canada. I see an old chart from 20 years ago, and even that recommends minimum R31 for Calgary. For the USA states right below you, the USA energy-efficiency organization recommends a minimum of R49, up to R60.

People can do the math on the heat savings vs. insulation cost between your current probably R21 and going to R49+, but if you have the insulation and want to put it in the attic, gaps are not a reason to not do it.

Oh, and make sure extra layers aren't faced. If they are, just rip the paper face off the batts. Otherwise it's like having two vapor barriers, and that's bad.


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