# Porcelain tile outside over wooden deck porch



## gregzoll

Write back next year, but pictures will be nice.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Wow. That porcelain tile is going to be slippery as anything once it gets wet or you have a layer of ice on it.

What you need to be concerned about is rain water in the fall getting in under the tile and freezing at night. As water freezes, it expands, and your mortar just can't stretch very far. The likely result would be that the expanding water would pop the tiles off.


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## Ron6519

A wooden porch deck is not a substrate you put tile over, in any climate. Any sort of research would have told you this.
Ron


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## BenH

Ron6519 said:


> A wooden porch deck is not a substrate you put tile over, in any climate. Any sort of research would have told you this.
> Ron


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding him, but it seems he used hardibacker or somthing of the sort first ( if that is what he means by lightwieght concrete board )

To be honest, it probally wasn't the best idea........

But......... no one can tell you for sure if it's gonna "pop". More than likely thats all it will do. If you sealed the tile and grout well, it may not do anything at all. 

However like someone else already pointed out, it will be VERY slick when wet.


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## Ron6519

BenH said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding him, but it seems he used hardibacker or somthing of the sort first ( if that is what he means by lightwieght concrete board )
> 
> To be honest, it probally wasn't the best idea........
> 
> But......... no one can tell you for sure if it's gonna "pop". More than likely thats all it will do. If you sealed the tile and grout well, it may not do anything at all.
> 
> However like someone else already pointed out, it will be VERY slick when wet.


I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear about this. The stated structure, is inappropriate for tile, even if it has a backer you would use as a component of a proper tile installation.
With 30 years in the remodeling field, I can say with little doubt this install will fail.
And you do not seal porcelain tile.
Ron


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## almypal

*Porcelain Tile on Wooden Porches*

Ron states that it is innapropriate to tile a wooden porch with backerboard, but doesn't state why. I would like to hear why Ron if you happen to still be around! Unless Ron has a good reason that I have not thought of, I cant see why it should not be successful, as backerboard is a solid base for tile, together with the use of an uncoupling agent it would help to make sure any movement in the wood (covered by backer board subflooring) due to temperature fluctuations will not affect the tiles. Also, porcelain tile does not allow water to enter it, unlike ceramic tile. That is why it is used in swimming pools.


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## almypal

*Porcelain Tile on Wooden Porches*

....Correction, porcelain is 0.5% porous


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## RenovatorLLC

Its not the tile itself that is the weak point in this application (assuming porcelain tile is used), but rather the grout. The grout may allow water to penetrate beneath the tile, then freeze/thaws cycles would probably cause failure.
Or maybe not. I talked to Schluter about an outside porch tile project (which didn't happen) here in New England, and they were confident that if you used their Ditra as an uncoupling membrane, failure shouldn't happen. I forgot to ask about the moisture-thru-the-grout scenario with their Ditra, which, imho, would result in the same failure.
Anyone have first hand photos of full weather-exposed tile work, tested by time in a freezing climate?


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## AtlanticWBConst.

Sadly, this project is doomed for the reasons stated. The deck itself is not a stable structure for the installation of tile. Add the harsh weather elements of the region and you a have a recipe for the tile failure. 

Sorry.


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## Ron6519

almypal said:


> Ron states that it is innapropriate to tile a wooden porch with backerboard, but doesn't state why. I would like to hear why Ron if you happen to still be around! Unless Ron has a good reason that I have not thought of, I cant see why it should not be successful, as backerboard is a solid base for tile, together with the use of an uncoupling agent it would help to make sure any movement in the wood (covered by backer board subflooring) due to temperature fluctuations will not affect the tiles. Also, porcelain tile does not allow water to enter it, unlike ceramic tile. That is why it is used in swimming pools.


You don't tile a wood porch because it's a wood porch. Meant for sitting on and rocking. It's made of 2x4's or 2x6's usually placed wider then 16" on center with slat boards on top. Putting cement board (not a subflooring, by the way) over the top adds no structural support or integrity to the floor. Cement board needs to be put on a solid base ,it doesn't provide one. The porch floor will have too much bounce and thereby fail.
The OP didn't say he restructured the porch to specifications needed to achieve the necessary deflection rate, he just said he put, "lightweight concrete board" down. This was either a lack of understanding or cheap/ stupid. Either way it fails. And the time, effort and cost will go into a dumpster within a year or so. 
Wasting time, "sealing " porcelain tile is idiotic.
Ron


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## almypal

*Porcelain Tile on Wooden Porches*

Thanks Ron and others! 

Very good point about likely bounce / movement. However, this particular porch doesn't have "slat boards" but has exterior grade plywood 3/4" thick as the flooring (it is no different to the interior of the house which can be tiled once cementitious backerboard is layed -apart from interior grade instead of exterior grade plywood being used inside). Of course it is different in that it is subject to weather.

However, I could back up even further. The actual original problem was this: The exterior porch plywood was likely originally skimmed with a levelling compound and then painted with grey porch paint. The oil based porch paint showed thin hair line cracks. I made an original attempt at fixing this by lightly sanding and priming, then covering with two coats of latex based porch paint (which I though would have enough give to allow for slight movement). Looked great for a few months, then the hairline cracks re-appeared (at random accross the surface) THAT'S when we got into discussions about porcelain tiling with the client.

Obviously it would be great if anyone could suggest a quick fix, where we don't have to resort to tiling.
In the meantime I found a site where they have tiled a porch with porcelain tiles (it is at harborfarm.com)










*Outdoor Porch*

On the second floor is a flat roof over a porch and covered tractor entry. Equipped with in-floor heating, *it is tiled with H.F.’s RH Series through-bodied porcelain in a natural stone-type finish of a greenish-gray color.* Because it has no glaze, moisture cannot get between the body of the tile and the glaze. *The V-cap edge, however, is of H.F.’s BG Series stoneware tile in Sea Green.*

Incidentally, doesn't subflooring include anything under the finished surface.

Thanks again!


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## ccarlisle

The crux of the matter of why you don't tile outdoor structures made of wood is because the substrate expands and contracts at greater rates than tile and mortar do, so cracking is inevitable. Cracking leads to water penetration and tile failure. Ditra and other antifracture membrances are meant to minimize this phenomenon and are successful INDOORS but don't have a chance against sun, rain and freezing etc.

I think I read somewhere that Ditra can withstand substrate movement of 0.1%. Outdoor wood expands about 1-2% depending. 

Flexibond is an organic adhesive, isn't it? What some call a mastic. I don't care much for what the sales literature says but organic emulsions (i.e mastics) re-emulsify under water and very wet conditions. They break down. Result = tile failure. No pro I know uses mastics near wet conditions except for the odd replacement of a tile in a backsplash, maybe. Nowhere else...

Sealing grout only prevents staining, not water penetration. And porcelain tile doesn't 'seal'...can't. :laughing: Oh ya...and the cbu will just be a water-sponge. One frost and "ALL GONE"

The 'veterans'  who have posted here are right.


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## Tjim1960

.....So what's the best options for such a project? I have a wrap-around porch I'm interested in covering. I know there are composite planks made for this purpose - but a bit pricey. Any other options??


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## Bud Cline




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## Termite

Tjim01 said:


> .....So what's the best options for such a project? I have a wrap-around porch I'm interested in covering. I know there are composite planks made for this purpose - but a bit pricey. Any other options??


Options for tiling an existing wood porch? Not really. :no::no:


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## Wildie

Tjim01 said:


> .....So what's the best options for such a project? I have a wrap-around porch I'm interested in covering. I know there are composite planks made for this purpose - but a bit pricey. Any other options??


 I have a concrete porch deck and I covered this with rubber garden tiles.
These tiles are 16"X16"X1", come in various colors and have a brick pattern etched into the upper surface.
These are made from recycled car tires in Montreal, Canada.
Being rubber, they are not slippery and just laid in place. No adhesive is required.
The perimeter must be enclosed to prevent drifting! I used 1"X3" PT strips screwed to the deck!


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## Bud Cline

I hope I don't regret this.....

but I don't agree with any of the above posts!!! Where is all of this information coming from?


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## Wildie

Bud Cline said:


> I hope I don't regret this.....
> 
> but I don't agree with any of the above posts!!! Where is all of this information coming from?


 Well, its a fact that I have rubber tiles on a concrete deck, wanna see a pic?:huh:


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## hdlern

*How to tile over an elevevated wood deck..*

I know I'm late to this, but I am a contractor and have done this type of work in my own home as well as others. I've never so much as had a grout joint crack even after 5 years of use. So strap in and pay attention...

First I recommend the the supporting floor joists be no more than 12" off center not 16". 10" would be even better. This takes care of the weight and deflection issues. The flooring is usually 2x6 pressure treated lumber as original flooring. First I nail down a reinforcing wire mess to the floor (may want to put down a waterproof membrane first so when laying the mortar down on top of the wire it doesn't drip down - I've done it both ways). Lay down an exterior mortar on top of the wire mesh at least 1" thick (some say 1 3/4) make sure you keep a pitch for any water to run in the direction you need. (for covered deck that I am usually doing this is not as much of an issue-but still consider), I this use a product called Red Guard that I paint onto the mortar bed (I also use to waterproof tile showers). This does 2 things, keeps moister out of mortar bed and also allows for more expansion of the tile on the floor during freeze thaw expansion times. I then do my tiling always using a grade 5 porcelain which has the least inherent moister content and can handle the exterior conditions.. Then grout as normal. The combination of the beefed up joists, the floating bed of mortar that negates the swelling and shrinking of the wood, as well as the added flexibility the Red Guard adds, creates a stable outdoors tile floor over wood that will hold up many many years. I've not had one fail yet and I do not use expansion joints using the above method. 

I would be hesitant to uses backer board or cement board, not sure that it would float and move with the wood floor as well as wire and mortar. Take the extra time and do it the way I have laid out and you will be happy with the results. Caveats: I live in N.C. (but it does get cold here) and these are under roof installations (screened covered decks open to the elements but mostly dry - not completely) Though the principle should be the same either way. Good luck!
Harry:thumbsup:


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## tpolk

he has 16"oc, 3/4 ply that he continued to see cracking/movement in, only used cement board under tile. please let us know how it works out. i believe there are probably methods and areas of the country where exterior tiling may work done correctly. i think you missed a few steps


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## Bud Cline

hdlern-Harry,

I won't argue but I will tell everyone else reading this that you won't find "that" method in any of the tile industries how-to recommendations in this country. In fact it is laughed at by most serious pros. Just be warned-that's all.

The use of any pressure treated wood materials in any tile installation is very risky business, pressure treated materials can be bad news unless they are KD pressure treated at the outset.

What good does it do to install a waterproof membrane if you are going to drive nails through the membrane to fasten down the wire? Just curious about that one.

"Grade Five" tiles have nothing to do with a tiles ability to resist freeze-thaw. Grade 5 is basically the scuff resistance attribute given to the glazed surface of a glazed tile, has nothing to do with the body of the tile. There is no such thing as an "unglazed" porcelain tile being assigned a Grade 5. 

Porcelain tile is in fact suitable for outdoor use because of its low water absorption properties of 0.5 percent. Doesn't have to be a Grade 5.

Using regular Portland grout WILL NOT insure moisture won't get to the mortar bed - IT WILL.

A mortar bed cannot "float" if it is entwined with a wire mesh that is nailed to a surface. And.....one inch of thickness is not approved by the tile industry.

Floor joists don't have to be 10" on center or 12" on center to provide the necessary deflection suitable for a tile floor. Close-cropping of floor joists will create and improved condition but isn't necessary. Sixteen inch centers will work just as well. Six inch joists are not suitable for a tile installation and you won't find that recommendation in any of the industry sanctioned books either.

Deletion of expansion joints is also a fools mistake. The industry recommendations for use of expansion joints in tile installations is clear, especially if the tile is subject to direct sunlight.

The Internet is full of bad information from unknowing soles and the above recommendations is a very good example of what not to do.

Please don't follow that advice.


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## hdlern

Hey Bud,
No offense taken. First, yes 16"oc is just fine. I like to use 12"oc and double up some beams for extra stiffness. If I'm gonna warranty it I like to be sure. As for the water proof membrane on top of the 2x 6 pt boards, that's there just to keep the deck mud from oozing between the 2 x 6 boards to the open area below. This doesn't waterproof anything, I use Redguard on top of the floated poured deck mud to keep moisture out of it. Thought that was clear, maybe not. 

Also not all porcelain tile it frost rated so be careful in saying any porcelain tile. Your wrong about the grading issue, the slip resistance is separate. And btw for outdoor use you should use a tile that has a high slip resistance for sure. As for not going over a properly supported 2 x 6 existing floor in the manor I laid out, just is not correct. A quick online search of some top professional sites bare this out. Yes, you are correct that 1" is not technically standard, 1 1/4 is often referenced as a minimum, none the less my real word experience has not had an issue. 

Also the lath messing that is tacked down with wide green top roofing paper nails just to hold it while working, leaves at the movement necessary for it to work a floating floor.

It should be noted that I SCREW down the existing 2 x 6 pt floor before doing anything, thus insuring minimum movement for the structure. What ever movement that takes place is not going to transfer through that floating mud floor. The addition of the reguard allows for an additional 1/8 of movement on oop of what the mud floor already provides. That are other products like Ditra, ECB and nobel deck that will allow or 3/8 additional movement. Thought I think with the mud bed this is overkill. There's even a product called Ti-proboard that is made to go over 2 X 6 open exposure like this, that allows of only 3/8" of mud bed. I have not personally used it, but it is rated for such, very expensive though.

Lastly, as far as the expansion joints are concerned, if your area is 12 x 12 or smaller and done in the way I laid out, expansion is not indicated. I have done it this way on marginally larger ones and have never had one single issue. Not ever. This is real world... Now I agree, that the book says to do it, so to all out there, do it.... I think it becomes more of an issue for those who instead of using a thick mud bed, (deck mud) put down a plywood base and then a layer of cbu (wonderboard type product) on top of that. In which case I would really think a about using a Ditra type product and jointing properly.

Bottom line Bud, your entitled to your opinion, as we all are... But my real world experience (and many other professional opinions) very much disagree. If your framing will hold the weight and is built properly, and the procedures I layed out used, you will have many year (decades) of enjoyment. Just make sure the underside of the 2 X 6 flooring stays dry if not off the ground. If built right to the ground with dirt underneath, moisture might be an issue and a moisture barrier of some sort would need to be used... I should also state that all my installations are on raised screened in covered decks, and if the 2 x 6 boards are still green or newly installed, I wait 6 months for them to "dry out". Most of the movement will take place during that time...

IMHO of course....
Harry


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## Bud Cline

That's all fine and dandy and you can defend your methods from now on.

Since this is a DIY website I think it is only fair that the visiting DIY'ers looking for answers know that your above method(s) aren't described in any industry standards anywhere. This is not to say your methods can't work or that you don't have Obama luck.

I'm too lazy to go back and re-read your earlier statement but I will tell you that the so-called ratings 1-5 (or whatever) only have to do with the wear-ability of the _surface_ of the tile. Nothing more. These ratings are assigned as a result of testing of a particular tile surface and this is done on a voluntary basis per tile manufacturer. Just because a tile has a high PEI Rating doesn't mean it has to have a high COF (Coefficient of Friction) indexing.

One more thing...
ANY porcelain tile is suitable for use outdoors in most climates. The same thing that makes porcelain tile porcelain tile is also what makes it suitable for exterior use. THAT IS its ability, or should I say inability to absorb moisture. Porcelain tile has some the lowest absorbency of any tile, That's what porcelain tile is.

As far as " a quick online search of some top professional sites"...

*BULLSCHITT!* I know what "top sites" you are talking about and frankly my friend I would be careful taking a lot of that information to the bank. Why not trust the industry standards? You never referred to them one time in your scenario of bad ideas.

I'll give you the final word!


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## wwwamericana

*It can be done*

Hi Guys! Was reading your thread with great interest about tiling over a wooden deck. Just wanted to report in to you that we decided to chance this about 8 years ago on a screened in wooden deck off our kitchen. We used porcelain tiles and concrete board. Although all the professionals at Lowe's and the other home-improvement stores told us that it wasn't recommended, we choose to chance it. Extremely tired of replacing wood, couldn't afford the composites, and did not want an outdoor carpet. I must tell you that we have had absolutely no problems with the tile or the grout. We did make sure that the support system was adequate. Our backporch looks as good as it did when we first installed it. Yes, it does get slick when it rains but so does wood planking. We simply squeegee it off and cleaning it is as easy as getting the mop and bucket out. It gets very cold here and very hot and humid as we live in central Missouri at Truman Lake. But the weather, hot or cold has not seemed to be a problem. I would definitely say it is worth a shot - cost effective - extremely low maintenance and looks absolutely beautiful. Soooo much better than the grayed wooden decking which is so hard to maintain in our hot humid lake climate. I'm not an expert or a contractor of any kind - just a plain ole homeowner tired of waterproofing a wooden deck and who wanted to try something different. :thumbup:


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## racebum

i just tiled an outside porch that use to be wood. tore all the wood out and poured concrete. tile on wood outside is just inviting disaster, the biggest reason is expansion. if it were me i wouldn't worry about it if you have already done it. wait for it to fail and get the research and planning ready for your next project. till then this will last.....awhile...


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## pattyg2

*Tile on wood deck*



wwwamericana said:


> Hi Guys! Was reading your thread with great interest about tiling over a wooden deck. Just wanted to report in to you that we decided to chance this about 8 years ago on a screened in wooden deck off our kitchen. We used porcelain tiles and concrete board. Although all the professionals at Lowe's and the other home-improvement stores told us that it wasn't recommended, we choose to chance it. Extremely tired of replacing wood, couldn't afford the composites, and did not want an outdoor carpet. I must tell you that we have had absolutely no problems with the tile or the grout. We did make sure that the support system was adequate. Our backporch looks as good as it did when we first installed it. Yes, it does get slick when it rains but so does wood planking. We simply squeegee it off and cleaning it is as easy as getting the mop and bucket out. It gets very cold here and very hot and humid as we live in central Missouri at Truman Lake. But the weather, hot or cold has not seemed to be a problem. I would definitely say it is worth a shot - cost effective - extremely low maintenance and looks absolutely beautiful. Soooo much better than the grayed wooden decking which is so hard to maintain in our hot humid lake climate. I'm not an expert or a contractor of any kind - just a plain ole homeowner tired of waterproofing a wooden deck and who wanted to try something different. :thumbup:


I am so glad I saw this post. I am planning on doing the same thing on my wood deck (10 years old)except instead of tiles I am just laying the cement board (which I will seal the underside),taping and thinsetting the joints,priming with concrete bonding primer and then painting with epoxy paint with color chips. It will be sealed with a polycrylic(4 coats). I have a sample board I am working on. The deck is covered and a layer of 15lb. roofing felt will go over the deck.
I know it will work!


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## teahead

*anyone use this?*

http://www.tiproboard.com/index.html

We're interested in doing this to our raised front porch and deck.


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## Bud Cline

teahead,

Don't be misled by the claims of that product. I don't know anything about the product but I did read into the website and there are many disclaimers you may not have picked up on. So protect yourself and investigate that product thoroughly. Unless of course you are spamming this website then it won't matter to you anyway.


You deck structure must first be suitable.
The mortar used to fill the ribs must be suitable.
The panels are not in fact waterproof without adding a waterproofing membrane to the top of the mortar.
There is no ready-mention of a need to flash the edges where they meet structure walls.
Just be careful with these guys.


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## teahead

No, seriously interested in that product as i like the idea of tile on a deck. I'll do more investigating.


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## Bud Cline

On the surface it seems like a fair idea depending on the cost. Might be... you could do the same thing with plywood and cement board for less. I'm not convinced their claims of that product being structural are totally honest. I don't see how it could be structural in those dimensions.


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## mrs. c

*doomed*



SEYON said:


> I have just installed porcelin tiles over existing wooden porch deck using lightweight concrete board and used flexibond motar cement for exterior use and I am now being told that it probably will not hold up through the winter. I live in cincy oh.


 
As stated by many.... The wood deck is the culprit. Porcelain tile is fine for the freeze/thaw affects in Ohio. I have porcelain tile on my front porch in Michigan, but it was laid over the cement porch base. MANY porcelains have a textured / abrasive finish and do just fine with cold winter weather... but it is the wood base that will still be affected by the freeze thaw in Ohio...and penetrate upward to the cement board. Hopefully a top quality thinset was used with an additive and you may be able to get a few years out of it. Good luck.
:no:


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## mrs. c

*tile*

fyi.....
best place for tile of any nature... in the Michigan and Ohio areas... is Virginia Tile. Selection is huge. Designers help free. Love em'.


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## Bud Cline

*In other words...*

"The culprit" is *movement*!
The wood and the cementuous products as well as the tile will move at different rates of expansion and contraction. Therein lies the "culprit".
Cement board and thinset and porcelain tile are compatible.

Porcelain tile isn't usually an issue, it will handle freeze/thaw.
The thinset isn't usually the culprit, it will typically handle freeze/thaw.
Adding additives to already modified thinsets isn't a good idea.
There are decking systems available that have been designed for just this purpose.


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## JLCONSULTANTS

*Tiling wood decks*

I note this post is old, but I thought it deserved correction. I am a professional tile installer and have tiled outside decks on a number of occasions without failures. The secret is the prep and materials used. First of all the deck must be stable. You can normally achieve this by adding 1/2 inch backerboard (thinset and screw the backerboard). You then need to waterseal the backerboard with jiffy seal ( like a roofing membrane material). On top of the jiffy seal you place Ditra drain with a special compound thinset) to remove any penetrating moisture that may come over time through the grout. You can then tile over the ditra drain with a recommended thinset (Schluter recommends a dry set but I personally think that something like a two component fast set thinset from Flextile 58XT specific to outside decks is better). You must do all of this in temperatures above 10 degress celcius. I live in Vancouver BC, and we get freezing temperatures here all the time....no issues with proper application.


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## WirelessG

If the tile does pop, then the best solution would be to carpet over the tile. I remember someone talking about tiling over carpet, so I figure if you multiply the process by negative 1, it should work.:laughing:


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## Bud Cline

> i note this post is old, but i thought it deserved *correction*.


...lmao


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## sagenc

*Where in NC? I need a quote for tile work.*



hdlern said:


> I know I'm late to this, but I am a contractor and have done this type of work in my own home as well as others. I've never so much as had a grout joint crack even after 5 years of use. So strap in and pay attention...
> 
> First I recommend the the supporting floor joists be no more than 12" off center not 16". 10" would be even better. This takes care of the weight and deflection issues. The flooring is usually 2x6 pressure treated lumber as original flooring. First I nail down a reinforcing wire mess to the floor (may want to put down a waterproof membrane first so when laying the mortar down on top of the wire it doesn't drip down - I've done it both ways). Lay down an exterior mortar on top of the wire mesh at least 1" thick (some say 1 3/4) make sure you keep a pitch for any water to run in the direction you need. (for covered deck that I am usually doing this is not as much of an issue-but still consider), I this use a product called Red Guard that I paint onto the mortar bed (I also use to waterproof tile showers). This does 2 things, keeps moister out of mortar bed and also allows for more expansion of the tile on the floor during freeze thaw expansion times. I then do my tiling always using a grade 5 porcelain which has the least inherent moister content and can handle the exterior conditions.. Then grout as normal. The combination of the beefed up joists, the floating bed of mortar that negates the swelling and shrinking of the wood, as well as the added flexibility the Red Guard adds, creates a stable outdoors tile floor over wood that will hold up many many years. I've not had one fail yet and I do not use expansion joints using the above method.
> 
> I would be hesitant to uses backer board or cement board, not sure that it would float and move with the wood floor as well as wire and mortar. Take the extra time and do it the way I have laid out and you will be happy with the results. Caveats: I live in N.C. (but it does get cold here) and these are under roof installations (screened covered decks open to the elements but mostly dry - not completely) Though the principle should be the same either way. Good luck!
> Harry:thumbsup:


Hi, I'm in the Charlotte area and would love to get a quote for my new home that is currently under construction. It has several porches and bathrooms. Thanks!


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## Msradell

sagenc said:


> Hi, I'm in the Charlotte area and would love to get a quote for my new home that is currently under construction. It has several porches and bathrooms. Thanks!


You probably better shout pretty loud! That post you quoted was 4 1/2 years old.


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