# Need Help - The lives of my fish are depending on you!!



## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Hey there, Hope someone can help me out in a hurry? :smile:

My name is Chris and over the years I have tinkered with electrical installations here at home, but with simple stuff only.

I need someone's help ASAP as I'm a koi fish hobbyist who has some sick fish. I have an indoor 1200 gallon tank that needs to have its water temperature increased - fish need it to improve their revovery and immune system. Water temp is currently at 60 degrees F and I need to get it to at least 76 degrees F. Room temperature is at 70 degrees.

I plan on installing an inline heating element, like the DIY ones found on YouTube, but instead of inline in a pipe, I'd rather add the heating element to my filter (it's a pool sand filter) using a 1" threaded bulkhead fitting. It will have an exterior thermostat.

This is for a "120v" installation:
Here are the parts I think I need to do the job.... Just not sure of a few things, such as: 

1: Will my bulkhead fitting and fibreglass tank be able to handle the element's heat at connection point? Remember, water in filter will always be running over element...

2: What size of a/c solid stat relay will I need for my set up considering the parts below?

3: Confirm order of connection, espepecially which side off ssr to connect to element? 

Here the parts I think I need, but need your help to confirm ssr sizing and that my tank and bulkhead won't melt from connection through bulkhead / fibreglass tank wall. (I know people in the fish business often use regular PVC piping for inlines without issue, but my installation is a bit different since I'm screwing element directly into my pool filter. 

So, I think it's element to ssr then to temperature controller in that order?

Here are pics of parts. Please feel free to add your comments. My fish need you in their hour of need. Their as equally loved as my dog, and I love her to bits!


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Last two pics


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> but my installation is a bit different since I'm screwing element directly into my pool filter.


Ayuh,.... Doesn't the filter have a filter media in it,..??

Isn't the heatin' element goin' to be into this filterin' media,..??

Just do a Pvc, in-line after the filter if the answers to my questions are yes,...


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm not an electrician but did have a large salt-water aquarium in Hawaii. Isn't it rather risky to do a DIY job? Especially when they make safe heaters? 

I lost all my fish when the filter quit while I was in the Caribbean on a sailboat. I'd had them for 4 yrs. My house caretakers just didn't know what to do even though I left a list of contacts. Another time the little puffer got caught on the filter outflow and let his poison out, apparently thinking he was under attack. Lost a few fish.

It just seems like water and DIY electricity don't mix.....but not an expert.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... Doesn't the filter have a filter media in it,..??
> 
> Isn't the heatin' element goin' to be into this filterin' media,..??
> 
> Just do a Pvc, in-line after the filter if the answers to my questions are yes,...


Hey Bondo,

Yes, filter has sand in it, but only up to the halfway mark or so. Water always sits on top of sand, so the element would sit there. A few people have mentioned if done as PVC inline, and if I should stop my pump without unplugging heat, pipe would fry pretty fast. My thinking is, if in pool filter, it's surrounded by a larger body of water. 

What about size of ssr. I'll either go with a 1500 watt or 2000 watt element, but I'm thinking the 2000 watt would be a greater melt factor on bulkhead, fibreglass tank or inline PVC??


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Nik333 said:


> I'm not an electrician but did have a large salt-water aquarium in Hawaii. Isn't it rather risky to do a DIY job? Especially when they make safe heaters?
> 
> I lost all my fish when the filter quit while I was in the Caribbean on a sailboat. I'd had them for 4 yrs. My house caretakers just didn't know what to do even though I left a list of contacts. Another time the little puffer got caught on the filter outflow and let his poison out, apparently thinking he was under attack. Lost a few fish.
> 
> It just seems like water and DIY electricity don't mix.....but not an expert.


Thanks Nik333, you're probably right. If I had my way I'd pay a licensed electrician, but I'm unemployed and penny concious:smile: this DIY set up is used all the time... Many folks who brew beer use the same principal, either for heating or chilling... Lots of videos on YouTube, and of course I'd run by final connects on this board before actually switching on.:smile:


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm having a hard time figuring how the water temp can be 10 degrees below the room temp unless you have some sort of cooling installed.
Maybe the tank too close to outside wall or floor with poor insulation. In that case increase the insulation.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

joed said:


> I'm having a hard time figuring how the water temp can be below the room temp unless you have some sort of cooling installed.


It's because I do small daily water changes and its winter here, so city water is ice cold. Remember, it's a 1200 gallon tank, so it never catches up with ambient air temperature. 


On the other hand, I have no temp issues with my small 85 gallon tank. It's always above room temperature, and if I need extra heat there, I just leave the canopy light on longer....:smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

My tank...


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Filtration...


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

> It's because I do small daily water changes and its winter here, so city water is ice cold. Remember, it's a 1200 gallon tank, so it never catches up with ambient air temperature.


Can't you use hot or warm water to fill it?

Maybe buy a small under counter water heater and just put it in line.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

joed said:


> Can't you use hot or warm water to fill it?
> 
> Maybe buy a small under counter water heater and just put it in line.


Don't know what u mean by small under the counter water heater, but one must also take into consideration what types of metals are used for tanks.... Some are toxic to koi.

And yes, I suppose I could hook a garden hose from my laundry room to fish room, but in all honesty it would be a bit of a guessing game depending on the size of water change, and sudden fluctuations in temperature aren't good for fish.... Slow and steady, then maintain. That's why I'd prefer to use a heating element and a temperature controller. I have a couple of sick fish in the tank, and they need to be at a steady 76 degrees. Some other parasite or bacterial infections need 80 degree and more...

Just went online and priced out under the counter heaters.... Far too expensive, and most are on demand, meaning they suck plenty of electricity, so not sure that's for me.

My proposed set up would be less than $75.00


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Apart from the element being in contact with sand during backwash operation, do any of you see any differance, disadvantage between element being inside filter or PVC pipe inline? Isn't it part of the same water loop?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Koidaddy said:


> It's because I do small daily water changes and its winter here, so city water is ice cold. Remember, it's a 1200 gallon tank, so it never catches up with ambient air temperature.


I don't think there is any reason the water temperature wouldn't "catch up" to the ambient air temperature if that temperature was more or less constant. Is there any way you can preheat the water you swap out?


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Are they in the "fish room" 365 days a year?


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Hey Guys, with your number of posts you must know your stuff. 

Maybe I'm being stubborn, but don't you think instead of inline, that placing the element in filtration tank could work as effectively as inline? Element would have more space / water inside tank than being inline in a 1.5" PVC pipe. Also, installation would be easier for me and element change outs much easier (screw out - screw in).

Anyway, I do appreciate all your help. Whatever you guys advise, I'll be listening.

Also, could any of you reassure me again if there would be a risk of pipe or bulkhead / tank meltdown where element connects? And what size (type) of ssr would you recommend for either a 1500 or 2000 watt element? If you can answer today that would be great... I need to get parts ordered ASAP.

Thanks!
Chris


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

where are you located? I have had a big koi pond outside for about 20 years, havent had any issues with sickness.....no uv lights or any of that water cleaning stuff...too antiseptic of an environment will hurt the fish....when you use city water for changes do you treat to kill the chlorine?.any water heater rated for human use will not effect the koi...


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Nice looking koi from the pic of the tank............


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

craig11152 said:


> I don't think there is any reason the water temperature wouldn't "catch up" to the ambient air temperature if that temperature was more or less constant. Is there any way you can preheat the water you swap out?


Yes, I could run a hose from my laundry room using a mixture of hot and cold, but that would be a hassle as I do small daily water changes? And not sure if there are any mineral/metal deposits built up in my hot water tank that I should be worried about effecting my fish?


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> where are you located? I have had a big koi pond outside for about 20 years, havent had any issues with sickness.....no uv lights or any of that water cleaning stuff...too antiseptic of an environment will hurt the fish....when you use city water for changes do you treat to kill the chlorine?.any water heater rated for human use will not effect the koi...


Thanks for your reply. I live in Montreal, Canada, and I do use dechlor each and every water change. My fish come in for the winter. I put them outside in May in my 8000 gallon pond. They come inside the first week of November. The real problem is, I have too many koi in a small space, so they stress easily. The need warmer water for a stronger immune system to combat their stress.

Here's their outside digs.... I built it all by my self...:smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> Nice looking koi from the pic of the tank............


Thanks!!!:smile:


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## Colbyt (Jan 27, 2014)

I have fish, including Koi, in a pond for close to 30 years now. That's an outside pond that often freezes over. I've never changed the water. It is filtered and aerated.

Why in the world would you change or even add water on a daily basis?

The fish don't need heat they need stable water with the proper electrolytes in it. You destroy that every time you change the water.

That water heater element looks like a great way to boil fish or electrocute them or yourself.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Koidaddy - you probably know that the bacteria from the fish poop create a type of stable ecology over time, similar to our colons' good bacteria. Fresh water tanks are actually harder to use than salt water, I think. But, ammonia can build up.

You said it was just a small amount of fresh water daily, that you add. Can't you just filter the tapwater, heat it and carry it in? Even a small dolly could be used if it's heavy. Just from what I've read, it seems like a very confusing concept about temperature and Koi. It snows in Japan  Beautiful outdoor pond. Good luck on your scaly babies.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Colbyt said:


> I have fish, including Koi, in a pond for close to 30 years now. That's an outside pond that often freezes over. I've never changed the water. It is filtered and aerated.
> 
> Why in the world would you change or even add water on a daily basis?
> 
> ...


Normally when outside I do a WEEKLY 10% water changes. This is the minimum recommended amount by all koi enthusiasts worldwide. The reason I am currently doing small water changes is that I am currently having small ammonia spikes due to having too many koi in a small 1200 gallon tank. I used to have an additional 1700 gallon above ground pool in another area of my basement, but overtime developed too many leaks. Sadly the replacement liner was no longer in production... So stuck with just one tank. Next winter I'll either leave most outside or purchase / build an addition holding tank. 

Water heater element will be on a thermostat, so no risk there, and if it does falter, there's an alarm that goes off.... Also, I don't worry about electrocution. All equipment use GFCI outlets, but I do appreciate your concern! :smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Nik333 said:


> Koidaddy - you probably know that the bacteria from the fish poop create a type of stable ecology over time, similar to our colons' good bacteria. Fresh water tanks are actually harder to use than salt water, I think. But, ammonia can build up.
> 
> You said it was just a small amount of fresh water daily, that you add. Can't you just filter the tapwater, heat it and carry it in? Even a small dolly could be used if it's heavy. Just from what I've read, it seems like a very confusing concept about temperature and Koi. It snows in Japan  Beautiful outdoor pond. Good luck on your scaly babies.


Thanks for your reply - much appreciated. And Yes, I am up to speed on filtration and the benefits of maintaining a well cycled tank.... One of my pool filters is mechanical and the other is bio, filled with kaldness media.

As far as adding warm water, The only feasible way for me, other than a heating element, would be to add hot tap water to my cold water changes and add dechlor, but I don't think that's my best option... Anyone with tropical or salt water fish knows the importance of heat when treating sick fish. Warmth is the first line of defence, thus having a heater. :smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Here's an application video that many fish enthusiasts have used. To me, the video lacks detail, thus my concern for what type of ssr to use with either a 1500 or 2000 watt heating element and placement positioning when wiring the three components together. You see, I'm very comfortable installing simple household electricity, but have never used a ssr... I know it's has something to do with reducing the electrical load, in order not to fry the STC 1000 temperature controller.

Here's the video - I feel badly about taking up so much of your time on this issue. I've kinda turned into a fish keeping forum...lol. Also, where is this forum based? .... You're 5 hours ahead of me?


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

> Don't know what u mean by small under the counter water heater,


Small 10 gallon water heater. All water heaters are glass lined. If the anode is an issue remove it.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

Koidaddy said:


> Anyone with tropical or salt water fish knows the importance of heat when treating sick fish. Warmth is the first line of defence, thus having a heater. :smile:


But, on the other hand, heat promotes bacterial growth. Tough call. Will watch the video. Don't worry about people's time. . . they answer when they want to :wink2:


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

There are directions on time. You have to use the search. It seems to be Greenwich Mean time. You can set it to your time.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Really nice outdoor pond!! do you add salt to the water to help the fish build up a slime? the salt helps kill bacteria and makes for a healthier water...why bring the fish in at winter, mine stay out all year, I have several pumps that keep open spots so it doesnt freeze over..with 8000 gal yours should not freeze solid to the bottom, just put a few submersible pumps to keep the ice open..the cold will kill off most bad bacteria, much healthier for the fish to winter outside...


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Koidaddy said:


> The reason I am currently doing small water changes is that I am currently having small ammonia spikes due to having too many koi in a small 1200 gallon tank.


Why is the ammonia spiking? Are you still feeding them? In my research, Koi are not supposed to get fed year round and should be allowed to go dormant. 

I leave mine outside all year and stop feeding them when the water is about 45°. Either be prepared to chop air holes when the top freezes or install a bubbler and a small heater for air holes to exchange the gasses.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

47_47 said:


> Why is the ammonia spiking? Are you still feeding them? In my research, Koi are not supposed to get fed year round and should be allowed to go dormant.
> 
> I leave mine outside all year and stop feeding them when the water is about 45°. Either be prepared to chop air holes when the top freezes or install a bubbler and a small heater for air holes to exchange the gasses.


X2..you can get a few small low amp submersible pumps and hang them about 12 inches below the surface and run the tubing out of the water to the side of the pond flowing back into the pond to keep an area open in the ice and they wont disturb the water at the bottom...several pumps are a saftey so if one stops you will still have one to keep an air exchange...


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

What is your planting zone? We live in zone 7 and our koi stay in our pond
year round. It freezes over and we keep two small pumps going in the winter.
They are 250 watts each and cost about 12.00 each -- with the harbor freight
coupon. 
We also do agressive water changes almost
every day from early Spring until late Fall. We do this by letting the hose run
into the pond for about 10 minutes every day. ( in hot weather more) We estimate by the end of the week we exchange about 25 to 35 percent a week.

We have our pond since 1997, and only lost one fish in all that time. 
It's a DIY filter system, with a 200 gallon biological pond located 18 feet
away, that flows back and forth from the main pond to the bio pond. It's a gravity fed system with a bottom drain. 

Are you that cold in winter that you have to bring in your fish? How deep is the 
pond? You need a deep section, so that the fish can stay in the deep section
all winter (our deep section is 3 1/2 feet deep. They do not need a heater,
just an opening in the ice for the gasses to escape. 

We salt the pond in the winter and never use a uv light. 
good filteration, agressive water changes are a must. 

Tell me more about your pond and your climate. In my experience,
it's not necessary to bring the fish in.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> A few people have mentioned if done as PVC inline, and if I should stop my pump without unplugging heat, pipe would fry pretty fast. My thinking is, if in pool filter, it's surrounded by a larger body of water.


Ayuh,.... You sure seem intent on doin' this the hard way,.....

What yer tryin' to do is build a small water heater, just like a domestic tank type water heater,....

A 1500 watt element in any pipe, needs to be submerged, or it'll burn up,...
So long as it's submerged, it'll heat the water when power is present, with no flow, it'll boil the water, 'n create convection currents,...

Why not just use water heater parts, insteada the fancy switches yer showin',..??
Why not tie the heater power, to the pump power, so the heater *HAS* to turn off, whenever the pump is turned Off,..?
A water heater element can be controlled by a water heater T-stat,....

Wherever ya put the element, it's gotta be submerged, anytime there's power to it, or it'll fry itself in seconds,....


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

@twoknots, Why do you do aggressive water changes? I don't and try to develop an ecosystem that will maintain itself. 

I use a heater, not to heat the water, just to keep an air hole. First winter, just had a bubbler. We had an unusually cold weather with minimal snow and the bubbler couldn't maintain the air hole.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

1 , 2 or 3 floating heaters of 1000 watts on a temperature controller will simplify your heating needs.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

I just re-read your first post. Koi are cold water fish, not tropical 
fish, they don't need the water heated. You should concentrate on 
filteration and water exchanges. My fish are currently in about 35 degree
water. The are dormant and move just slightly.

In your basement you said the tank is at 60 degrees, I believe water
comes out of the tap at 40 degrees. If you just add some water everyday
from the tap, combined with good filteration, your fish will do well. They do not need a heater. 

Is this your first year with a pond? 

I estimate our water temp now-- is about in the mid thirties.
When it gets really cold we've had winters with the water icing up.
One winter the ice was 6" thick. The fish survived fine. 

Winter view.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

its not the cold that kills the fish, all the organic matter as it rots in the bottom of the pond puts out toxic gas that needs to escape through the water, hence the unfrozen areas in the ice...


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> its not the cold that kills the fish, all the organic matter as it rots in the bottom of the pond puts out toxic gas that needs to escape through the water, hence the unfrozen areas in the ice...


X2, Its a pond with some colorful carp, not a crystal clear swimming pool. 

I really don't understand all of the water changes and sand filters by the op. IMHO, he's creating too sterile of an environment and the fish can't cope with normal changes.


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

47 47...
We have a DIY bottom drain pond...it also has a 200 gallon bio pond located
18 feet away; the water flows back and forth 24/7 between the bio pond and
the main pond. 

We do agressive water changes because it's healthy for the fish, they make a lot of waste 
the water changes help keep the pond fresh and clean. 

We never ever use any chemicals or a uv light, and we never have 
to vacuum our pond. We rely on water changes and good filteration. 

Our water is always fresh, and clean. As soon as it looks slightly dark
we clean the filter. It clears up within an hour back to crystal clear,
many times the water is gin clear.

We have a timer on our hose so that we don't have to remember to shut
off the hose everyday.
If you're interested on our pond husbandry practices, I can provide you with lots
of info.
This is the beach section it is 4 foot X 5 foot and the bottom on the beach
section is rocked -- the rest of the pond is bare bottom.

the imagine rock is under the water, so are the koi. 

After the beach the pond is about 2 feet deep, then it's 3 1/2 feet deep. 
our fish are very active and friendly. They swim on top of the water 
and love to be hand fed.

Water changes and good filteration is key.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> Really nice outdoor pond!! do you add salt to the water to help the fish build up a slime? the salt helps kill bacteria and makes for a healthier water...why bring the fish in at winter, mine stay out all year, I have several pumps that keep open spots so it doesnt freeze over..with 8000 gal yours should not freeze solid to the bottom, just put a few submersible pumps to keep the ice open..the cold will kill off most bad bacteria, much healthier for the fish to winter outside...


Yes, am currently adding salt to increase slime coat and medicate. @.03 % for two weeks, then through water changes drop down to .01 % as a stress reducer.

In all likelyhood, I will keep outside next winter. The only reason I started to bring them inside many years ago, is because at the time my old pond was less than 2000 gallons and at one point during the winter I had a pH crash with about 8 casualties.... So that event put the fear of God in me. This is why my rebuild went to 8000 gallons, so I could leave them out with less worry, and yet, it seems like I don't have the balls to do so. Pretty sure I'll be leaving them out next year. I have two bottom drains with air diffusers that would run gently all winter to keep ice open.... See pic below.


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## 47_47 (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for your reasoning, TwoKnots. Your water is crystal.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

47_47 said:


> Why is the ammonia spiking? Are you still feeding them? In my research, Koi are not supposed to get fed year round and should be allowed to go dormant.
> 
> I leave mine outside all year and stop feeding them when the water is about 45°. Either be prepared to chop air holes when the top freezes or install a bubbler and a small heater for air holes to exchange the gasses.


I bring them in for the winter, so they have to eat, otherwise bio filter would starve...:smile:


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

47_47 said:


> X2, Its a pond with some colorful carp, not a crystal clear swimming pool.
> 
> I really don't understand all of the water changes and sand filters by the op. IMHO, he's creating too sterile of an environment and the fish can't cope with normal changes.


True, it doesn't have to be crystal clear, but sure is pretty when you can view
a pond with the fish very visible.
These fish are between 17 and 19 years old...that was the last time we bought koi, all the others are our babies born in our pond.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Two Knots said:


> What is your planting zone? We live in zone 7 and our koi stay in our pond
> year round. It freezes over and we keep two small pumps going in the winter.
> They are 250 watts each and cost about 12.00 each -- with the harbor freight
> coupon.
> ...


Hi Two Knots,

I live in zone 5b, so way colder than you (see weather chart for my area on page 1 of this thread) but people do overwinter with no issue in this zone with little trouble. Some tent their pond A frame style with heavy plastic, and others just allow nature to do run its corse. 

Most koi owners in this climate turn off all filtration for the winter. In zone 5b sooner or later one will have a causality or two.... It's just the law of averages. It's usually come springtime when all the nasty bugs come back to life that issues may occur. Of course, koi in a 5b zone have very little immune system during this thaw period... So there are risks involved, but I have 24 fish, so I'm starting to think they would be happier and healthier almost as ice cubes than being overcrowded indoors.:smile: My pond is 8000 gallons and 6 feet deep (2' above ground, 4' below). My filtration consists of two sieves, 4 barrel sand and gravel filters and two bio filters filled with kaldness and air domes. :smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... You sure seem intent on doin' this the hard way,.....
> 
> What yer tryin' to do is build a small water heater, just like a domestic tank type water heater,....
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but your method in my area would cost three or four hundred dollars to set up? What I am (and video) proposing is under $75. for the same results. I'm not working due to health issues, so money is a huge factor for the moment.

But I'm not ruling out your idea. Could you perhaps give me links to photos and parts reguired to do it your way? I will then find comparable items in my area and price them out.

Thanks again for all your help. So grateful.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

SeniorSitizen said:


> 1 , 2 or 3 floating heaters of 1000 watts on a temperature controller will simplify your heating needs.


Yes, for outspdoor applications, but I need a solution for indoors. Fish are spending the winter inside my basement.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Two Knots said:


> I just re-read your first post. Koi are cold water fish, not tropical
> fish, they don't need the water heated. You should concentrate on
> filteration and water exchanges. My fish are currently in about 35 degree
> water. The are dormant and move just slightly.
> ...


Are you saying I should add warm tap water as well? The problem is as mentioned earlier, I have a couple of fish with ulcers... These are ulcers that developed from koi spawning last year and were slow to heal. Now that fish are inside and crammed in a very small space, I am forced to do small and frequent water changes, using our almost freezing city water. So water temp has been kept down even though room temp is 72 degrees F. Ulcers are best healed when water temps are 76-77 degrees F. So I need to get the temperature there and keep it steady. Currently water is stuck at 60 degrees F. I've been ponding for 18 years.:smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> its not the cold that kills the fish, all the organic matter as it rots in the bottom of the pond puts out toxic gas that needs to escape through the water, hence the unfrozen areas in the ice...


Yes, these are all things I know. I promise you all, next year they will be staying outside, despite that it freezes over with 10 inches of ice with vent holes for degassing. I just need a solution for this year's dilemma... Need to focus on this as it's the real emergency now.:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Yes, am currently adding salt to increase slime coat and medicate. @.03 % for two weeks, then through water changes drop down to .01 % as a stress reducer.
> 
> In all likelyhood, I will keep outside next winter. The only reason I started to bring them inside many years ago, is because at the time my old pond was less than 2000 gallons and at one point during the winter I had a pH crash with about 8 casualties.... So that event put the fear of God in me. This is why my rebuild went to 8000 gallons, so I could leave them out with less worry, and yet, it seems like I don't have the balls to do so. Pretty sure I'll be leaving them out next year. I have two bottom drains with air diffusers that would run gently all winter to keep ice open.... See pic below.


is the inside of your pond concrete?


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

I am sure you can tell by video that I know a little about koi keeping.....:vs_lol::vs_lol:

We really need to focus on how I can heat my indoor 1200 gallon tank effectively. I'm pretty sure my application (PVC inline or better yet through the side wall of pool filter will work best, especially since it will be well under $100. to install. Just need to get back to the pieces I have suggested for use on page one of this thread and the correct size of ssr to use for either a 1500 or 2000 watt element.

Need to be ordering or finding the best solution to my indoor problem today.

Many thanks!!!!!
Chris
:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Two Knots said:


> True, it doesn't have to be crystal clear, but sure is pretty when you can view
> a pond with the fish very visible.
> These fish are between 17 and 19 years old...that was the last time we bought koi, all the others are our babies born in our pond.


WOW, thats a beautiful pond, nicely landscaped!! great job...


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Koidaddy said:


> Are you saying I should add warm tap water as well? The problem is as mentioned earlier, I have a couple of fish with ulcers... These are ulcers that developed from koi spawning last year and were slow to heal. Now that fish are inside and crammed in a very small space, I am forced to do small and frequent water changes, using our almost freezing city water. So water temp has been kept down even though room temp is 72 degrees F. Ulcers are best healed when water temps are 76-77 degrees F. So I need to get the temperature there and keep it steady. Currently water is stuck at 60 degrees F. I've been ponding for 18 years.:smile:


go here and ask your questions. I've never had koi users, so I can't
advise you.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> I am sure you can tell by video that I know a little about koi keeping.....:vs_lol::vs_lol:
> 
> We really need to focus on how I can heat my indoor 1200 gallon tank effectively. I'm pretty sure my application (PVC inline or better yet through the side wall of pool filter will work best, especially since it will be well under $100. to install. Just need to get back to the pieces I have suggested for use on page one of this thread and the correct size of ssr to use for either a 1500 or 2000 watt element.
> 
> ...


im sure you know alot about koi ponding, but we ALL can learn new things and realize some of what we do is not the best...I think you are causing more issues heating the indoor pond, koi love cooler temps, less bacteria and health issues with cooler water.....is your outside pond interior cement lined?


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## Two Knots (Nov 12, 2011)

Koidaddy said:


> Are you saying I should add warm tap water as well? The problem is as mentioned earlier, I have a couple of fish with ulcers... These are ulcers that developed from koi spawning last year and were slow to heal. Now that fish are inside and crammed in a very small space, I am forced to do small and frequent water changes, using our almost freezing city water. So water temp has been kept down even though room temp is 72 degrees F. Ulcers are best healed when water temps are 76-77 degrees F. So I need to get the temperature there and keep it steady. Currently water is stuck at 60 degrees F. I've been ponding for 18 years.:smile:


go here and ask your questions. I've never had koi ulsers, so I can't
advise you. I can only advise on keeping a koi pond clear, healthy, and clean
for optimum ponding pleasure. 

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> is the inside of your pond concrete?


Yes, outdoor pond is poured concrete to which parging was applied. Inside tank has a liner.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

During construction.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Yes, am currently adding salt to increase slime coat and medicate. @.03 % for two weeks, then through water changes drop down to .01 % as a stress reducer.
> 
> In all likelyhood, I will keep outside next winter. The only reason I started to bring them inside many years ago, is because at the time my old pond was less than 2000 gallons and at one point during the winter I had a pH crash with about 8 casualties.... So that event put the fear of God in me. This is why my rebuild went to 8000 gallons, so I could leave them out with less worry, and yet, it seems like I don't have the balls to do so. Pretty sure I'll be leaving them out next year. I have two bottom drains with air diffusers that would run gently all winter to keep ice open.... See pic below.


the problem I see with your new pond , is when the ice freezes in the winter its going to push the top 2ft of your pond outwards from the force of the ice...even though its poured concrete..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Two Knots said:


> go here and ask your questions. I've never had koi ulsers, so I can't
> advise you. I can only advise on keeping a koi pond clear, healthy, and clean
> for optimum ponding pleasure.
> 
> http://www.koiphen.com/forums/


Been a member on Koiphen for about 10 years. My name on that forum is Koidaddy (the same as here)..... I only came here for electrical advice about the correct size of ssr to use for either a 1500 or 2000 watt application.... But somehow this thread has derailed into " how to mange koi thread", which of course I don't mind at all, just need my electrical questions addressed.
:smile::smile::smile::smile:


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> I understand what you are saying, but your method in my area would cost three or four hundred dollars to set up?


Nope,... I'm afraid ya don't,...

The parts list is the bulkhead fittin, the 1500w heatin' element, 'n a water heater T-stat,....
Same plan as yer's with less complicated wirin',....

Just power it off the switch that also runs the pump,....
When ya turn the pump off, the heater is off,....
Put another switch 'tween the pump switch, 'n the t-stat, 'n you can turn off the heater, while the pump continues to run,....


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the problem I see with your new pond , is when the ice freezes in the winter its going to push the top 2ft of your pond outwards from the force of the ice...even though its poured concrete..


Really??? But it's 8" thick with a crap load of rebar installed??? Then shouldn't icecube trays explode?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Koidaddy said:


> Really??? But it's 8" thick with a crap load of rebar installed???


Ayuh,... Ice shatters volkswagon sized rocks every year,....

Concrete don't stand a chance,....
Though sloped walls would allow the ice to expand, without shatterin' the concrete,....


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> im sure you know alot about koi ponding, but we ALL can learn new things and realize some of what we do is not the best...I think you are causing more issues heating the indoor pond, koi love cooler temps, less bacteria and health issues with cooler water.....is your outside pond interior cement lined?


Yes, but I have a few that have ulcers.... They need an increase in heat in order to boost their immune system in order to heal. Ask any major koi forum, and they'll say, 60 degrees is too low and that my heat needs to be increased. :smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Really??? But it's 8" thick with a crap load of rebar installed??? Then shouldn't icecube trays explode?


ice cube trays have tapered tops to allow ice to go up and smooth sides..


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Yes, but I have a few that have ulcers.... They need an increase in heat in order to boost their immune system in order to heal. Ask any major koi forum, and they'll say, 60 degrees is too low and that my heat needs to be increased. :smile:


you should quarantine any sick fish away from the healthy ones, and it would be easier to control water temp in a smaller holding container...


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... Ice shatters volkswagon sized rocks every year,....
> 
> Concrete don't stand a chance,....
> Though sloped walls would allow the ice to expand, without shatterin' the
> concrete,....


Well, I'll address this on the Koiphen forum and see what they have to say. Worst case scenario would be, I'd just lower the water to ground level, that would still give me a depth of 4 feet?


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

the ulcers are from the fish being stressed and over crowded, yes I know your stuck for this year, I would just get the biggest pool that will fit in your house now and put the healthy fish in that and give them more volume of water to live in and most of the health issues will go away..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you should quarantine any sick fish away from the healthy ones, and it would be easier to control water temp in a smaller holding container...


I don't have the additional money to purchase a hospital tank (unemployed), so need to work with what I have. These ulcers are on two fish that are pronned to ulcers.... The others are much stronger and are thriving. 

Please, just tell me the correct size of ssr I need for set up before I order the wrong one online..... Please.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Well, I'll address this on the Koiphen forum and see what they have to say. Worst case scenario would be, I'd just lower the water to ground level, that would still give me a depth of 4 feet?


or just build up soil to the top of your pond and out about 6 ft to give support to the concrete..thats going to be a trial and error issue to work on..but for example look at all the inground cement swimming pools that freeze with no issue, but they are ground level..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the ulcers are from the fish being stressed and over crowded, yes I know your stuck for this year, I would just get the biggest pool that will fit in your house now and put the healthy fish in that and give them more volume of water to live in and most of the health issues will go away..


Again, no money for that at the moment.... Having a hard time paying my mortgage. Just need the info on correct ssr and I'll take it from there.:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> I don't have the additional money to purchase a hospital tank (unemployed), so need to work with what I have. These ulcers are on two fish that are pronned to ulcers.... The others are much stronger and are thriving.
> 
> Please, just tell me the correct size of ssr I need for set up before I order the wrong one online..... Please.


would a pool like this work? cheap at $43.00 in change..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Anyway, I've got to run.... Have doctor appointments this afternoon. Hopefully when I get back someone will have answered my ssr question as stated on page one.

Feeling frustrated....


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

whats an ssr?


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> Anyway, I've got to run.... Have doctor appointments this afternoon. Hopefully when I get back someone will have answered my ssr question as stated on page one.
> 
> Feeling frustrated....


I feel your pain when fish you have for a long time start having issues..that why all the ideas and questions to try and help..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> would a pool like this work? cheap at $43.00 in change..


I don't see any pic of pool, but a hospital tank needs to be at least 3 to 4 hundred gallons.... Then I would have to add filtration... More money I don't have ATM.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I feel your pain when fish you have for a long time start having issues..that why all the ideas and questions to try and help..


Thanks. But I know my best bet now is to heat water. I'll clean out the ulcers and inject with antibiotics. I just need the ssr question answered.... Anyway, gotta go now.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

heres a heater just for you..http://www.amazon.com/Hydor--Line-E...454347366&sr=8-4&keywords=inline+water+heater


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

do a search on amazon for " inline water heaters" there are many to choose from, hope this helps..good luck with the sick fish...


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> do a search on amazon for " inline water heaters" there are many to choose from, hope this helps..good luck with the sick fish...


Thanks, but for the number of watts needed, 1500 to 2000, I would have to purchase several smaller units or one large one, and they are in the area of five to six hundred dollar range. My homemade job, which in therory will work, will be under $100. Dollars.

Do you (or anyone else) know what size of solid state relay I would need to rip run either 1500 or 2000 watt element hooked up to a STC 1000 temperature controller?


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

get the smaller one, do your water change running the water through the heater, then just recirculate the existing water with a pump through the heater, it will stay at set temp. you dont want a drastic change in water temp at once..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> get the smaller one, do your water change running the water through the heater, then just recirculate the existing water with a pump through the heater, it will stay at set temp. you dont want a drastic change in water temp at once..


Thanks, but are you able to answer my solid state relay question? I've been advise on other fish boards that this route works fine. Just need the right Size ssr for 1500 to 2000 watts? Any advice?:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

how about this for controlling the temp?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,.... I believe the one in the picture appears to be rated 40amps,...

The element oughta draw well under that,....


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

http://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Itc-3..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=01F2BX9DRGT1GJYB5KG7


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> Thanks, but for the number of watts needed, 1500 to 2000,


Ayuh,.... A hot tub/ spa heater,....

They all seem to have a ssteel housin',..... must be a reason for it,....


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Itc-3..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=01F2BX9DRGT1GJYB5KG7


So, if If I understand you correctly, a 40 amp ssr should handle either a 1000 or 2000 watt heater element even if the temperature controller is rated for maximum 1000 watts as shown in your link?

Let me know and thanks!
Chris:smile:


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,.... A hot tub/ spa heater,....
> 
> They all seem to have a ssteel housin',..... must be a reason for it,....


Yup, so that they don't melt.... Anyway, these units are way over my allocated budget, but thanks just the same.:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> So, if If I understand you correctly, a 40 amp ssr should handle either a 1000 or 2000 watt heater element even if the temperature controller is rated for maximum 1000 watts as shown in your link?
> 
> Let me know and thanks!
> Chris:smile:


that particular one will handle 1000 watt heating element, but there are ones if you do a search will handle more wattage...this was for an example if were on the road to what you need and in your budget..


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> that particular one will handle 1000 watt heating element, but there are ones if you do a search will handle more wattage...this was for an example if were on the road to what you need and in your budget..


If true, then what is the need or purpose for a solid star relay? I though these were used to step down the wattage or volts.... If you can kindly explain?

:smile:


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Koidaddy said:


> If true, then what is the need or purpose for a solid star relay? I though these were used to step down the wattage or volts.... If you can kindly explain?
> 
> :smile:


I didnt mention anything about that, musta been someone else...


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

Okay, lets look at this from a different angle.

I want to install an inline 1500 watt inline heater for my 1200 gallon tank with an auto temperature controller.

What supplies do I need from the heating element to temperature controller to wall plug on a 110 plug. Surely someone can give me a list of supplies that are simple parts and not expensive machine or heaters.

Thanks!

Here is the video that inspired me, so advise me accordingly.
Many thanks - slightly exhausted...
Chris


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## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

I have felt your lost income pain... I wish you the best in that regard and a speedy recovery of your health issues. 

Why not add a 50 to 70 gallon barrel to your filter loop and put the heater in that. Not only would that give you a safer place to put your heater but also add needed water volume and be great place to mix you meds and temper the water changes. From the looks of your indoor tank you could leave the barrel on the floor and gravity feed the tank.

I would still make the power supply part of the filter circuit as someone already suggested.


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

RegeSullivan said:


> I have felt your lost income pain... I wish you the best in that regard and a speedy recovery of your health issues.
> 
> Why not add a 50 to 70 gallon barrel to your filter loop and put the heater in that. Not only would that give you a safer place to put your heater but also add needed water volume and be great place to mix you meds and temper the water changes. From the looks of your indoor tank you could leave the barrel on the floor and gravity feed the tank.
> 
> I would still make the power supply part of the filter circuit as someone already suggested.


Reg, thanks for your empathy. I like your idea, just need to know more about the solid state relay size (ssr) and would it be compatible to the STC controller available on the net as seen in video. Remember, I want to use a 1500 watt incoloy element. Also, I think I would need a higher amp circuit breaker at my main electrical panel, especially considering I have a hefty exterior pump and air pump on the one plug in the room to which the 1500 watts would be added to???? Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Chris

See video below.


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

KD, I watched the video and have better idea of what your trying to do, you just need a 220volt relay that can handle 1500 watts of power, if you have an electrical supply house, go ask them for one, should be relatively cheap..you would connect the heating element on one side of relay and power from the breaker on the other side, then the controler( which now doesnt need to handle big power as the relay is made for that) connects onto the relay ,on the terminals that will energize the relay to close it to make power goto the heating element ..something like this...http://www.amazon.com/Packard-C240B...qid=1454422818&sr=8-1&keywords=220+volt+relay


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

now take this controller cut off the female outlet and wire the 110 volt wires to the 110 volt coil on the relay and your done..http://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/redirect.html/ref=dp_sp_detail2_1?ie=UTF8&merchantID=A1RUFFFCQ74BCW&originalPageType=Detail&asin=B011296704&pl=M3pW4xEhBskfEMqhy4J37ylDbAX6J5waEFQzkDj24ZeqR%2BHM8vsJ8pgzwWAuHxIzpkIU4%2Bg2oWFAJnWk%2BrLMxn8y59jlPXYiYrH4xInJPpHQlMEJKTTroWFoSnlLTRvq6kHuP3Opn3EBqCi55Q99ivs%2B1h%2F%2Bhiy4ETgZZI2B1thGNCxCtCSeV6X9wBA6qMFUI5RzQFvDEoJnINu0exHi6AKzTgJUhlaolTHACIvLfUZ2Ceq0OnaIXQAPM7AzWQI0hTX1eiQsixb8HqdclzlGoS3H5sg0J9DViZye2jih8arQD5oTy9Wg7%2F%2Fs5hnRI7bbrhJcPXpriMEVCijuWGVq80ueBmyjSJG6OVjblSFag2wwSMfyq8rEKJjJ2Q%2BXuUmJGUufLEoitY6%2B3ZvsZrxY1yKx7pu8KeFnqZAB7zYFFICAFPd1DASWaNr0y9BMM3q8UbJhnORH5RfibDSrrZgc%2FQVi%2FVoW7NI9DhaQqQmeUmDPIeJ1irmSJIM5COa95Zru2%2FXibBhg7Vd0g3frCacZw%2BhVsBbOVWAO1vuKsGF%2FXuUJMAhB%2B3H9Dse3zN9eV%2BKYCSFPtD81YONi%2BbPMfQQNErgenWZeSTPnh3PtiQgUMQrjb64BEDs%2Fm7BrhO%2FCnDAyoJrt8eBwT43n4xr4UzwDk9EwAo%2FJDkXGczHIV74loNVpyayjn6HezKNj3WG9DX37ZHCkB7RBOt9%2B8DEN1CDSPy%2Bsxakc2FgmGIO5G0YHHnDL6%2FZkpGdTFL%2FRubIwubNqz%2F2VxLPu6dPUuNM2IhRf%2FGh%2FKxtRS%2BpH%2FDZ6KihguAERGSyN%2FekxhpkRoZe9xbq5Mq5KmRAGxDgb7MWxZo%2BrEwnJNkFT9eT0zM9vWmLQ1l%2FVeFROefsuIoQ09XPmCCMmrW%2Fof4Am7yQ%3D&token=6FEEEBBDD0E0FCD05A774C671166FF9BB3ECE120

just put the temp probe in the water


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

or this..http://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect...oken=E5CA9DF140B5CAE1D5B461F93CD3939F43D5687D


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## Koidaddy (Jan 31, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> KD, I watched the video and have better idea of what your trying to do, you just need a 220volt relay that can handle 1500 watts of power, if you have an electrical supply house, go ask them for one, should be relatively cheap..you would connect the heating element on one side of relay and power from the breaker on the other side, then the controler( which now doesnt need to handle big power as the relay is made for that) connects onto the relay ,on the terminals that will energize the relay to close it to make power goto the heating element ..something like this...http://www.amazon.com/Packard-C240B...qid=1454422818&sr=8-1&keywords=220+volt+relay


Ok - I pick up a 220 volt relay, connect element to on one side, and then power from the breaker to other side. For the " breaker power" could I use a heavy duty extension cord plugged into my 110 wall outlet and then wired to relay? ... Then connect the SCT thermostat controller to the 220 volt relay terminals (not sure where).

The only question I have, in photo of 220 relay, there are two sets of prongs on front side of photo and what looks like more prongs on the side? What gets connected where????

Also, your last two links when I hit them come up with nothing, redirecting me to Amazon's home page with nothing?

Could both the relay and temperature controller box be sandwiched in to one project box without issue? Also, I think my wall outlet is just your typical amp connection that runs back to my main panel, doesn't this average amp present a problem... Meaning, will everything still work, keeping in mind that I also have a 1/4 horsepower pump plugged in as well as a large air pump.

I really appreciate all of your help!!!!! 

Thanks! 
Chris


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect...oken=779E1B28BFC9EFEE20ECD105FC029F717E4B9983


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ok new link..this is the ssr..its rated 25 amp, they have ones to handle more amps if needed...what amps does your 1500 watt element need?


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## WhatRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

your pump is 120 volt, the heating element is 220? if so you will be on a dedicated double breaker for it..


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