# Towards a general theory of gumbo



## wooleybooger

I used to use Chef Paul Prudhomme's recipe varying the spices with the meat. Now I just use Tony Chachere's Gumbo in a box. Lazy.


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## Two Knots

I don’t like okra, and not to fond of smoked sausage, so I probably won’t like it.
But, you never know, if I tried it I might like it.


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## DoomsDave

Two Knots said:


> I don’t like okra, and not to fond of smoked sausage, so I probably won’t like it.
> But, you never know, if I tried it I might like it.


Me too! 

Especially okra.

But, in gumbo, it's magic.


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## huesmann

Cajun Holy Trinity and a nice medium-dark roux are pretty much the only must-haves in gumbo. You can have seafood gumbo without smoked meats.

Supposedly soaking the okra in vinegar (or other acid) and rinsing it off before cooking helps with the slime.


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## wooleybooger

Try file powder for a thickening if you don't like okra.


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## gthomson

I'd add in some oyster mushrooms.


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## Startingover

Maybe if I made it more often it’d be easier but I found it too hard to make. I had a recipe from NOLA, okra, Andouille sausage, shrimp and File. Etc. Everyone loved it. No one else around here makes it. Hmmm. Maybe I’ll give it another try.


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## John Smith_inFL

okra is a thickener - if you don't want the juice to be thick, add the okra at the end of cooking.


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## DoomsDave

John Smith_inFL said:


> okra is a thickener - if you don't want the juice to be thick, add the okra at the end of cooking.


Well 

i haven’t found that to be the case


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## DoomsDave

Here goes with the basic general theoretical recipe:

One part each:

1. Chopped okra
2. chopped celery
3. chopped green bell peppers
4. chopped onion, white onion is my favorite but others will do
salt to taste

Cooking fat - my favorite is olive oil (cardiologist applauds) but other oils work, butter okay if cardiac emergency room nearby….

One head garlic, peeled and chopped or ground..

Put fat in big pot - the bigger the better - heat fat till “shimmering“ then toss in garlic and when it starts to turn golden or even brown toss in 1 - 4 above then simmer till it turns into this green glop.

At this point I add about 1 part of chopped smoked meat - Cajun andouille sausage, hot links, or Tasso (where are you @Brainbucket ?) then simmer half an hour to prepare for stage two…

While yew‘ wait, prep the all important thickener…..

Half a cup each of flour and oil heated in a pan and kept whisked till the flour roasts and toasts to a nice deep brown or almost black (keep whisking with a fork; turn down heat if you have to, don’t burn it) when done take off heat don’t burn it…


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## DoomsDave

Stage two is where options kick in, in my opinion anyway 

I usually add

2 parts chicken leg or breast (leg is better) plus
2 parts shrimp with shell on plus
2 parts shrimp with shell off plus
1 part crabmeat, or lobster, or crawfish plus
2 cups water

chop up and put in stew (except water, which you pour in)
stir 
then put in thickener

watch it explode - sorta , hiss anyway

cook till additional ingredients are done, let cool then serve with rice and inhale


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## DoomsDave

Oh but there’s more

So purists will likely scream but ….


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## huesmann

I usually start with the roux, and cook the Trinity in that, when it's dark enough.


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## J. V.

huesmann said:


> Cajun Holy Trinity and a nice medium-dark roux are pretty much the only must-haves in gumbo. You can have seafood gumbo without smoked meats.
> Supposedly soaking the okra in vinegar (or other acid) and rinsing it off before cooking helps with the slime.


Traditionally a roux is very important. Traditionally a roux is started in the cooking pot. Cooked with low heat until the color is achieved. Any oil works. Even butter, but it can burn easier. Or oil and butter.
Then the "trinity" green bell, onion and celery are added to this roux and lightly sauteed. It is then the liquid is added.
Usually a stock like chicken or a fish stock for a seafood gumbo. But any stock works good including beer. Then and only then are the choices of meat and/or seafood added in the order where faster cooking foods are added last.
Gumbo does not take forever to cook. Some cooks simmer for a long time while some just long enough to cook the meat or seafood.
Okra. The most misunderstood of all vegetables. I love okra. Its great breaded and fried crispy, pickled and of course a key ingredient ion Gumbo. Sliced up okra can be rinsed well to remove most of the slime. While the slime does have some thickening properties, it is not what makes a nice gumbo and it alone cannot take the place of the roux as a thickening agent.


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## DoomsDave

Thanks to all who’ve responded so far!

Here’s where things go off the rails

I also add: one part each cut corn after the vegetables are cooked along with the sausage, then, near the end, chopped kale or collards or spinach.

Got my football helmet on.


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## wooleybooger

Meh, corn is OK as is the kale if it's curly kale. I don't think collards or spinach meet my taste in this.


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## DoomsDave

Sometimes I’ll add black eyed peas.


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## DrSparks1

J. V. said:


> Traditionally a roux is very important. Traditionally a roux is started in the cooking pot. Cooked with low heat until the color is achieved. Any oil works. Even butter, but it can burn easier. Or oil and butter.
> Then the "trinity" green bell, onion and celery are added to this roux and lightly sauteed. It is then the liquid is added.
> Usually a stock like chicken or a fish stock for a seafood gumbo. But any stock works good including beer. Then and only then are the choices of meat and/or seafood added in the order where faster cooking foods are added last.
> Gumbo does not take forever to cook. Some cooks simmer for a long time while some just long enough to cook the meat or seafood.
> Okra. The most misunderstood of all vegetables. I love okra. Its great breaded and fried crispy, pickled and of course a key ingredient ion Gumbo. Sliced up okra can be rinsed well to remove most of the slime. While the slime does have some thickening properties, it is not what makes a nice gumbo and it alone cannot take the place of the roux as a thickening agent.


Doesn't a roux vary in it's thickening power depending on it's darkness?

Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk


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## DoomsDave

DrSparks1 said:


> Doesn't a roux vary in it's thickening power depending on it's darkness?
> 
> Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk


That’s been my experience.


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## wooleybooger

DrSparks1 said:


> Doesn't a roux vary in it's thickening power depending on it's darkness?
> 
> Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk



I've made white, brown, red and black roux and never noticed any difference. Of course the white was mostly for thickening, the others not so much in acsending order.


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## BayouRunner

DrSparks1 said:


> Doesn't a roux vary in it's thickening power depending on it's darkness?
> 
> Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk


.No. It’s more for flavor. A Good roux can make or break a gumbo. My bride makes such a good gumbo that I don’t try. She won’t get off work until tomorrow so I can’t add a recipe right offhand. But the sausage can make or break a good gumbo too.


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## DoomsDave

BayouRunner said:


> .No. It’s more for flavor. A Good roux can make or break a gumbo. My bride makes such a good gumbo that I don’t try. She won’t get off work until tomorrow so I can’t add a recipe right offhand. But the sausage can make or break a good gumbo too.


I agree 100%!

I once made “gumbo” without the thickener and it wasn’t any good. Bland, dull, insipid. (I saved it by adding thickener at the end, then cooking a bit afterward.)

The sausage needs to be just strong enough to notice without overwhelming everything else. Tasso was great, but it had a tendency to overwhelm, though I suspect it might have something to do with the particular tasso I used. I might have used too much. I used "hot links" once, and they overwhelmed, yike a rooney. 

The effect I strive for is kind of a symphony of flavors on the tongue, with various notes but nothing overwhelming.


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## DoomsDave

wooleybooger said:


> I've made white, brown, red and black roux and never noticed any difference. Of course the white was mostly for thickening, the others not so much in acsending order.


Do the different kinds of roux have different tastes?


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## Nik333

How do starches thicken? Starch granules don't dissolve in cool or tepid liquid—stir some cornstarch into cold water and you'll see what I mean—but when heated in a liquid, *the granules swell, absorb water, and burst, emptying more starch molecules into the liquid*. ... All starches begin to thicken at around 140°F.
*Thickeners - Article - FineCooking*


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## wooleybooger

DoomsDave said:


> Do the different kinds of roux have different tastes?


I haven't noticed a difference, if there is it may be covered up by the seasonings. I would say also that if you are going to use a black roux you'll want to be very careful not to burn the flour. Stir like a madman until just black and add it to the other ingredients to cool it before it actually burns. That could taste bad. Actually not black but very dark









Cook's Illustrated saying on roux color.





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Why Color Matters for Roux | Cook's Illustrated


From light to dark, how important is it to cook a roux to the right color?




www.cooksillustrated.com


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## DoomsDave

wooleybooger said:


> I haven't noticed a difference, if there is it may be covered up by the seasonings. I would say also that if you are going to use a black roux you'll want to be very careful not to burn the flour. Stir like a madman until just black and add it to the other ingredients to cool it before it actually burns. That could taste bad. Actually not black but very dark
> 
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> Cook's Illustrated saying on roux color.
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> Why Color Matters for Roux | Cook's Illustrated
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> 
> From light to dark, how important is it to cook a roux to the right color?
> 
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> www.cooksillustrated.com


My thickener comes out like Dark, almost black. It's even better when you use whole wheat flour instead of plain white flour.


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## huesmann

If you allow you roux to get too dark, it'll taste a little acrid-burnt. If you don't cook it enough, it'll taste a bit like raw flour. For gumbo, I like it at least peanut butter, but not quite dark (per wolleybooger's post). White or blond is just too light.

I, likewise, haven't noticed any difference in thickening power vs. color.


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## DoomsDave

Keep the comments coming!

Anyone ever try anything different from regular flour, like rice flour, etc.?


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## wooleybooger

DoomsDave said:


> My thickener comes out like Dark, almost black. It's even better when you use whole wheat flour instead of plain white flour.


Whole wheat, hmm, I'll need to give that a try. I'm off to peruse some Chef Paul and Prudhomme family recipies.


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## DoomsDave

Here’s Chef DoomsDave’s Gumbo du jour, my personal breakfast of champions. (Chumps?) 

I’ll make a bunch at once and freeze almost all of it. Keeps for months frozen, though it usually doesn’t have a chance to sit that long.


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## J. V.

DrSparks1 said:


> Doesn't a roux vary in it's thickening power depending on it's darkness?


I don't think so? It does not seem it would? So, I'm not sure Dr.


wooleybooger said:


> I've made white, brown, red and black roux and never noticed any difference. Of course the white was mostly for thickening, the others not so much in ascending order.


I use roux for several things like gravy. I pour the meat drippings into a fat separator and use the fat to make my roux. This keeps the meat taste theme going. 
I use a corn starch slurry for lighter things like Italian green beans and butter beans ect..... I always use some salt pork or similar and a thicker sauce is nice.
I have never heard of red roux? How do you do that?


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## DoomsDave

J. V. said:


> I don't think so? It does not seem it would? So, I'm not sure Dr.
> 
> I use roux for several things like gravy. I pour the meat drippings into a fat separator and use the fat to make my roux. This keeps the meat taste theme going.
> I use a corn starch slurry for lighter things like Italian green beans and butter beans ect..... I always use some salt pork or similar and a thicker sauce is nice.
> I have never heard of red roux? How do you do that?


You've given me (ahem) food for thought! And further experimentation. 

Gumbo-X, anyone?


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## DoomsDave

So, @wooleybooger I join @J. V. in asking about "red roux" . . . .


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## wooleybooger

J. V. said:


> I don't think so? It does not seem it would? So, I'm not sure Dr.
> 
> I use roux for several things like gravy. I pour the meat drippings into a fat separator and use the fat to make my roux. This keeps the meat taste theme going.
> I use a corn starch slurry for lighter things like Italian green beans and butter beans ect..... I always use some salt pork or similar and a thicker sauce is nice.
> I have never heard of red roux? How do you do that?





DoomsDave said:


> So, @wooleybooger I join @J. V. in asking about "red roux" . . . .


Assemble your roux ingredients as you normally would and whisk and cook to the desired shade/color is what I have done. Perhaps this explains it better and it gives and idea of what is happening to the flour. Uh, also known as Cajun Napalm, don't let it splatter on your skin.









How to Make Roux


Find step-by-step instructions for making the best roux, the classic thickening agent for soups and sauces. Get the expert tips and tricks here.




www.allrecipes.com


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## DoomsDave

Hmm . . .

So, anyone try adding something exotic to gumbo?

Like road-kill deer, possum or raccoon?

I once added some deer, which was good, though it was already well-cooked when I added it. (Dear deer, better watch out!  )


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## wooleybooger

DoomsDave said:


> Hmm . . .
> 
> So, anyone try adding something exotic to gumbo?
> 
> Like road-kill deer, possum or raccoon?
> 
> I once added some deer, which was good, though it was already well-cooked when I added it. (Dear deer, better watch out!  )


No reason possum or raccoon wouldn't work Ok but all we got here is roadkill, flatter than a greasy spot after the cars get finished with them. No road kill deer.


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## BayouRunner

No roadkill lol. We do use deer sausage. One particular vendor has ours now and it really adds to the gumbo. We’ve had several people rave about it when we use it. Including non deer meat eaters. It’s not the deer that makes the difference it’s the way they season their sausage. Wish they would give up a recipe as it’s more then an hour away


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## DoomsDave

Fish can work in gumbo too, especially kinds like ahi, mahi mahi and mackerel, which have robust flavors and sturdy textures. 

More delicate fish like perch tends to fall apart and turn to mush.


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## huesmann

Fish that disintegrates can sometimes provide some thickening activity though!


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## Two Knots

All my life I used flour to thicken gravy or make a roux…Several years ago
I switched to corn starch and It has improved the flavor of my gravy and sauces.


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## BayouRunner

DoomsDave said:


> Fish can work in gumbo too, especially kinds like ahi, mahi mahi and mackerel, which have robust flavors and sturdy textures.
> 
> More delicate fish like perch tends to fall apart and turn to mush.


A good seafood gumbo is hard to beat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DoomsDave

BayouRunner said:


> A good seafood gumbo is hard to beat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What do you put in yours?


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## huesmann

Shrimp are traditional, and maybe crawfish—but I guess it depends whether or not you like to take a break from eating your gumbo while shelling critters. Naked or semi-naked shrimp are easy to come by; naked crawfish are probably not easy to find.


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## DoomsDave

huesmann said:


> Shrimp are traditional, and maybe crawfish—but I guess it depends whether or not you like to take a break from eating your gumbo while shelling critters. Naked or semi-naked shrimp are easy to come by; naked crawfish are probably not easy to find.


I just eat 'em shell and all.


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## DoomsDave

Any reasonably flavorful seafood will work in gumbo, as a matter of persona taste. I've used oysters, mussels, squid, octopus, naked and shelled shrimp, prawns, lobster, ahi, mackerel, catfish, and those giant hockey-puck scallops.

They're all good tossed in, or browned first with spices then tossed in. 

Those small scallops are too delicate in taste, and tend to vanish from the taste map.


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## BayouRunner

DoomsDave said:


> What do you put in yours?


Crabs, shrimp, oysters. I don’t normally put fish. But if you do it can only be cooked for a few minutes otherwise it falls apart. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DoomsDave

Alligator is good in gumbo too!

So is javelina.


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## wooleybooger

DoomsDave said:


> Any reasonably flavorful seafood will work in gumbo, as a matter of persona taste. I've used oysters, mussels, squid, octopus, naked and shelled shrimp, prawns, lobster, ahi, mackerel, catfish, and those giant hockey-puck scallops.
> 
> They're all good tossed in, or browned first with spices then tossed in.
> 
> Those small scallops are too delicate in taste, and tend to vanish from the taste map.


DD you are the first person I come across that admits to eating/liking mussels, squid and octopus.


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## wooleybooger

BTW, I like them also. Forgot to say that.


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## Startingover

BayouRunner said:


> No roadkill lol. We do use deer sausage. One particular vendor has ours now and it really adds to the gumbo. We’ve had several people rave about it when we use it. Including non deer meat eaters. It’s not the deer that makes the difference it’s the way they season their sausage. Wish they would give up a recipe as it’s more then an hour away


My g’son just got an elk out west. He said the meat is sweet so may not be good in gumbo.


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## BayouRunner

Startingover said:


> My g’son just got an elk out west. He said the meat is sweet so may not be good in gumbo.


Never tried it. But if they had Elk here I guarantee there’d be a recipe lol


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## DoomsDave

Startingover said:


> My g’son just got an elk out west. He said the meat is sweet so may not be good in gumbo.


Hmm. I beg to disagree - sounds like a good sub for alligator or lobster.


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## turbo4

Two Knots said:


> I don’t like okra, and not to fond of smoked sausage, so I probably won’t like it.
> But, you never know, if I tried it I might like it.


Okra =Yuk ,Smoked sausage= Yumm


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## wooleybooger

Two Knots said:


> I don’t like okra, and not to fond of smoked sausage, so I probably won’t like it.
> But, you never know, if I tried it I might like it.





turbo4 said:


> Okra =Yuk ,Smoked sausage= Yumm


 Try it and use Tasso or a Cure 81 Ham rather that the sausage. Walmart can supply Tasso or if you are passing through south Louisiana stop somewhere and get it. It's a Cajun spiced ham.


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## turbo4

wooleybooger said:


> DD you are the first person I come across that admits to eating/liking mussels, squid and octopus.


Grilled squid is great as are Calamari (Squid rings Breaded and fried ) Mussels are just cousins of clams.


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## turbo4

DoomsDave said:


> , and those giant hockey-puck scallops.
> Those small scallops are too delicate in taste, and tend to vanish from the taste map.


Those giant Scallops are the best. any kind of scallops. Not sure what they are doing to them but some places that sell them they shrink to half their original size. Mostly the bay scallops. The big ones are sometimes fake ,some kind of shark i think.


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## DoomsDave

turbo4 said:


> Those giant Scallops are the best. any kind of scallops. Not sure what they are doing to them but some places that sell them they shrink to half their original size. Mostly the bay scallops. The big ones are sometimes fake ,some kind of shark i think.


Shark is good in gumbo too!

So’s swordfish


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## wooleybooger

turbo4 said:


> Grilled squid is great as are Calamari (Squid rings Breaded and fried ) Mussels are just cousins of clams.


Love the squid rings fried even the tentacles. I have fun whenever I see Calamari on the menu, I ask for the squid.  I've seen waitstaff almost get sick on that, don't know Calamari is the Italian word for squid.


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## DoomsDave

wooleybooger said:


> Love the squid rings fried even the tentacles. I have fun whenever I see Calamari on the menu, I ask for the squid.  I've seen waitstaff almost get sick on that, don't know Calamari is the Italian word for squid.


Squid rocks!


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## Startingover

Sooo. In Italy I ordered a seafood dish. A friend said to me, “you ordered squid testicles.” When my food arrived the friend said, “sorry, the word I meant was ‘tentacles’.”


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## Nik333

Startingover said:


> Sooo. In Italy I ordered a seafood dish. A friend said to me, “you ordered squid testicles.” When my food arrived the friend said, “sorry, the word I meant was ‘tentacles’.”


I think they would be very small.


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