# Well House 110v outlet needed



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

GreaseMonkey said:


> If I could ask of some expert advice on this subject. To begin, I have a well house that has a (1) wire feed going to the 220v well pump. This feed is a (2) wire (10 gauge) with ground. At the meter pole and below the meter I have an(outdoor)main breaker panel (200amp) this panel has (3) wires coming in from the meter and spaces for eight breakers. There is only (1) breaker installed in this box and it is a (20amp)220v breaker that feeds the pump (30feet away), as referenced above. I would like to add a 110v breaker to this panel and run a (2) wire with ground to the well house so that I can install an outlet for a light bulb to use during the coldest of days. I have looked inside the panel and noticed there is no location for a (neutral/ground?) hookup. The 220v breaker (inside the panel) has the black lead and the white lead hooked up and then the ground lead is hooked into a bar off to the left, I am not sure if this would be considered the ground bar or the neutral bar? I would like any advise on making this install. I live in a county with no electric codes and all work was done years ago before I owned the place. I have just rebuilt the rotted well house and would like to make it more weather tolerant other than the insulation and new structure I need to add the outlet. Other information I can provide is the house receives power from this box via (2) lugs on the bottom and the (1) lead from the (ground/neutral?) I really don't want to put a panel inside the well house but would if that is the recommended way.


In the service equipment panel ground and neutral are bonded. So connect your neutral for your 120 volt circuit to the same bar they connected the ground of the 240 volt breaker. Just don't use the same hole as the ground for the 240 volt circuit. Connect the the ground to same bar.

I should add that there is live electricity in the panel so focus on what your doing. Understand that the buses your installing the breaker will be hot if you do not turn off the main.



> Other information I can provide is the house receives power from this box via (2) lugs on the bottom and the (1) lead from the (ground/neutral?)


 This is called a feed thru lug panel and you should have a panel in the house that is fed from this service equipment with 4 wires ... 2 hots a neutral and ground.


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## danpik (Sep 11, 2011)

Since the well house is a separate structure, isn't it against code to run more than one circuit to this building?


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## Kyle_in_rure (Feb 1, 2013)

You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:

Just an idea.....


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Kyle_in_rure said:


> You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:
> 
> Just an idea.....



Certainly the easiest solution but do not wire it to a receptacle. Wire thru a switch to a lamp holder.

The other compliant method would be to replace the existing 2 wire feed with a 3 wire feed so that you have a neutral.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> I really don't want to put a panel inside the well house but would if that is the recommended way.


 I apologize for the oversite in my previous reply.

The NEC would require a panel and earth grounding electrode(s) or bonding to metal well casing would be allowed
if the supply to the house is via pvc water line.. You would replace the branch circuit for the pump with a 4 wire feeder .. 2 hots, one neutral and equipment ground. Neutral and ground would not be bonded at the well house panel. You would then install branch circuits for the well pump and lights and receptacles. This also allows disconnect for the structure and more convenience for maintenance.

On commercial properties you would be allowed in some cases to run more than one branch circuit to a remote structure under certain circumstances for lighting.

A small 4 space 70 amp panel would suffice and the feeder would be sized to the calculated load for servicing the pump house. 

It would be the code compliant way to supply equipment and lights at your pump house and since you have to trench to get the lighting circuit out there not a lot of extra work. You will incur some extra cost.... new breaker at the service equipment to protect the feeder, bigger and proper wire for underground feeder, panel, breakers for the branch circuits, interior wire, ground rod(s)if not using well casing, #6 wire for the earth grounding to rod or well casing and proper clamp for connection. Then you need to determine if you want direct bury wire or wire protected by conduit like pvc. You also have burial depth requirements regardless what you do.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> I apologize for the oversite in my previous reply.
> 
> The NEC would require a panel and earth grounding electrode(s) or bonding to metal well casing would be allowedif the supply to the house is via pvc water line.. You would replace the branch circuit for the pump with a 4 wire feeder .. 2 hots, one neutral and equipment ground. Neutral and ground would not be bonded at the well house panel. You would then install branch circuits for the well pump and lights and receptacles. This also allows disconnect for the structure and more convenience for maintenance.
> 
> ...


Stubbie (and poster),

Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

rjniles said:


> Stubbie (and poster),
> 
> Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.


That probably would be fine I am just reluctant to advise that design. I much prefer a panel and grounding electrode system for a pump house.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

Kyle_in_rure said:


> You could save effort and install a 240volt light bulb on the existing well circuit. You'd have to order the bulbs from amazon, and make sure no one put a 120 volt bulb in the socket :laughing:
> 
> Just an idea.....


Perhaps use a different style lamp base !
This would prevent a 120v lamp from being put in ?
But good idea thou !
is it code compliant ?


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## ionized (Jun 8, 2012)

Stubbie said:


> On commercial properties you would be allowed in some cases to run more than one branch circuit to a remote structure under certain circumstances for lighting.


A light that can be turned on from the house, or a light switched at both ends should certainly be allowed. It might be more work than the MWBC or a sub panel, but I thought it out to be out there for consideration. You could put a lamp outside the house so you don't trip on the way out 

Now for a crazier solution. Jut put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb

Probably more reasonable, just get a 277V incandescent lamp. They ought to be pretty common for the time being. Still better, perhaps, get a universal-voltage ballast and put in a fluorescent strip luminaire.


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

*Much Thanks*

Gosh, I am overwhelmed with the possibilities. Everyone's suggestions are much appreciated and I see I have several choices. If I gather this correctly I think since I am going to have to run a new circuit to the pump for the 110v outlet which I will probably run switched so I can put a light inside the pump house and a light outside the pump house. I will be digging a trench and placing a pvc conduit from the main panel to the pump house for this 110v circuit. Now being I will be digging up the trench the 220v feed is in can I run both branches in one run of PVC or do I need to keep them separate if I am not installing a panel inside the pump house? 1. I do know I will be replacing the 2 wire with ground that is there with a 3 wire with ground. 2. I do know that I will be putting in a switched 110v circuit in the pump house for the outlet and an outside light. Looking at these facts for the cheapest and least labor intensive? Would your recommendation be to replace the 2 wire /ground to a 3 wire /ground larger gauge and 30 amp breaker at main panel and put a subpanel in the pump house and branch off of it for all of the needs, the 220v pump the 110v outlet? Or, keep the 220v as is, and run a circuit to the pump in conduit for 110v with 2 wire/ground? Thanks to everyone for all of the advise. It is much appreciated.


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

*Can you explain the unfused HVAC*



rjniles said:


> Stubbie (and poster),
> 
> Since the pump is using a 20 amp 2 pole breaker, I am thinking a 20 amp MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). USe the 2 hots for the pump and a hot neutral for the lamp. No ground rods or panel required. Use a un-fused HVAC pull-out for the disconnect,.


 I like where you are going here, this sounds like the less labor intensive but I can't say I know what an un-fused HVAC is.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

ionized said:


> Just put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb


A good idea !

One light inside & one light outside ! Easy as !


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

*I'm trying to envision.*


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ionized said:


> A light that can be turned on from the house, or a light switched at both ends should certainly be allowed. It might be more work than the MWBC or a sub panel, but I thought it out to be out there for consideration. You could put a lamp outside the house so you don't trip on the way out
> 
> Now for a crazier solution. Jut put 2, 120V lamps in series so you don't need to buy a special 240V bulb
> 
> Probably more reasonable, just get a 277V incandescent lamp. They ought to be pretty common for the time being. Still better, perhaps, get a universal-voltage ballast and put in a fluorescent strip luminaire.


 So if I ran it in series I could run two 120v lamp sockets by tying into the black wire put the two sockets in series. This would be for the situation as it stands now with the 2 wire/ground. 
What would happen if one of the lamps blew, I guess it would just toast the other one? (WRONG)


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## Kyle_in_rure (Feb 1, 2013)

GreaseMonkey said:


> I like where you are going here, this sounds like the less labor intensive but I can't say I know what an un-fused HVAC is.


It is one of those pullout disconnects usually mounted on the walls next to outside Air conditioning units. They are usually in grey boxes.


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## dmxtothemax (Oct 26, 2010)

GreaseMonkey said:


> So if I ran it in series I could run two 120v lamp sockets by tying into the black wire put the two sockets in series and run the other end to the white. This would be for the situation as it stands now with the 2 wire/ground. What would happen if one of the lamps blew, I guess it would just toast the other one?


NO !

If they are wired in series, across two hots (no neutral),
Then if one lamp blew, then the other would simply stop working !

The only way for the other lamp to blow out,
would be if one lamp shorted out (very unlikely).

:thumbsup:


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## Removeb4flight (May 12, 2013)

If the OP doesn't know what would happen if one of two series wired lights burned out, should he really be doing this kind of electrical work? ....just saying


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Not to break up the fun but he only has 30 feet to run to his rejuvenated pump house. Why on earth would you do some crazy resourceful series wiring of 120 volt bulbs on a 240 volt source that doesn't have a neutral. 

If cost is such a big issue here then I would just do as rjniles suggested or if by chance the existing wiring is in conduit just pull in new wire using the old.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

The discussion of using a 240 volt lamp or using 2 120 volt lamps in series is likely moot. It is not compliant to use voltages above 120 for luminaries (Lights) in residential units. NEC 210.6 (A) (1).

Some might argue that the well house is not part of the residential unit.


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## ionized (Jun 8, 2012)

Seriously, the easiest and most robust way to add a light would be to install a linear fluorescent luminaire with a universal voltage ballast. Label the luminaire indicating that a 120V ballast can not be used.

Despite what I suggested earlier, Installing a non-standard (in a residential setting) higher voltage lamp or wiring 120V devices in series, would be asking for trouble. Some day, someone will screw in a 120V lamp. Will it be incandescent and just get bright and then blow out, or will it be something else like an LED or CFL and make smoke? I am not sure what a poor power factor CFL or LED would do in series with another one, but I am sure that they are not tested for that.

OP, you wrote that you want the light for the coldest days. What has the temperature got to do with it? I know that the coldest days tend to be some of the darkest ones as well. Typical modern electronic ballasts will strike down to -20 F if you stick with typical (32 W nominal) lamps. (Stay away from low-power, energy saving lamps.) To go lower temperature, you need a ballast for refrigeration applications. Here is a link for GE instant-start ballasts that is informative. In your application, instant-start or program-start will probably not make any difference. The latter is good for when the lamp is turned on and off frequently.

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingW...asts_Section_10_Ballasts_T8_Instant_Start.pdf


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## ionized (Jun 8, 2012)

rjniles said:


> The discussion of using a 240 volt lamp or using 2 120 volt lamps in series is likely moot. It is not compliant to use voltages above 120 for luminaries (Lights) in residential units. NEC 210.6 (A) (1).


I wondered about that.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

ionized said:


> Seriously, the easiest and most robust way to add a light would be to install a linear fluorescent luminaire with a universal voltage ballast. Label the luminaire indicating that a 120V ballast can not be used.
> 
> Despite what I suggested earlier, Installing a non-standard (in a residential setting) higher voltage lamp or wiring 120V devices in series, would be asking for trouble. Some day, someone will screw in a 120V lamp. Will it be incandescent and just get bright and then blow out, or will it be something else like an LED or CFL and make smoke? I am not sure what a poor power factor CFL or LED would do in series with another one, but I am sure that they are not tested for that.
> 
> ...



I assumed (maybe in error) the poster wants to use an incandescent lamp to provide some heat for freeze protection.


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## Kyle_in_rure (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm thinking the OP may want the light for heat. I could be wrong


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## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Not for nothing, but how often would one need illumination within a relatively dead space such as a wellhouse? Ever hear of a flashlight? I'd go with a battery operated fixture, 2 for 9.99 at Target and be done with it. Trenching, conduit, subpanels, pullouts,.. geez...


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> Not for nothing, but how often would one need illumination within a relatively dead space such as a wellhouse? Ever hear of a flashlight? I'd go with a battery operated fixture, 2 for 9.99 at Target and be done with it. Trenching, conduit, subpanels, pullouts,.. geez...


You must work for target ... :whistling2: I do know where you can find a dead space ... :wink:


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

*Thanks all*

Everyone has helped me quite the bit. I thank you all.
After looking at all of the post and learning quite a bit I think I now know what I will do. 
I am going to pull out the old 3 wire and run a new 3 wire with ground to the pump house and install a sub panel.
At this sub panel I will have 2 power leads going to the sub-panel 110 each branch then I will have a white lead to neutral bar (inside sub-panel) and the ground lead going to the ground bar(inside sub-panel). I will then run a ground lead from the ground bar(inside sub-panel) to the well head casing. From inside this sub-panel I will install (my old 20amp double pole breaker) 220v for the pump power (2 black leads). I will install a small 10amp breaker in the subpanel for the 110v outlet needed. I will probably include 2 light switches one for an internal light (for heat, some 2 degree days) and one for external light on this 10 amp circuit. I will then install a new 30amp GFCI breaker at the panel on pole to power the sub-panel.
Does that sound about right?
I guess I need a recommendation on wire size from pole panel to the pump sub-panel. I will be running it in PVC for about 30 feet.
Once again thanks everyone for your insight and recommendations and pointing out some of my really bad mistakes.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

I would not instal a GFCI main breaker in the sub; if it trips your pump is out.

Here is some minimum sizing:

30 amp 2 pole breaker in the main panel.

4 runs of #10 THWN in conduit to the subpanel (Conduit must be continuous)

You do not need a breaker in the sub panel. Use a 4 space main lug panel (under $20 at a home center). Buy a separate ground bar kit.

20 amp 2 pole breaker for the pump with #12 cable

15 amp GFCI breaker for the lights/receptacles with #14 cable (10 amp breakers are rare).

Grounds and neutrals kept separated.


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## IslandGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Would a light bulb be sufficient to prevent freezing? I'm thinking automatic heat tracing on all exposed pipes... Then install a standard 15a breaker for the outlet and lights and use a GFCI receptacle. The lights don't need GFCI protection anyway.


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks for the thought on the heat trace, I might consider this but I also have a 44 gallon pressure tank (22"x36") for the well. The enclosed pump house is a 4'x4'x4' area so it isn't so big a 100 watt bulb wouldn't keep the area warm. I estimate an R-12 on my foam board insulation, and think I am pretty weather tight on the construction. 
Now you have got me thinking is there some way I could put an temperature sensor on the light circuit?


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## GreaseMonkey (Jan 29, 2014)

I like your plan and this will be the path I take. Thanks for the information on everything. Stubbie too. I just need for some warmer temps now so that I can dig up a trench.


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