# Jim's Master Bathroom Remodeling (april 2013)



## InspectorZo (Apr 19, 2013)

jemhunter said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am remodeling my master bath and starting w/ the walk in shower stall. I need some advice regarding the shower pan and how much should be redone.
> 
> ...


Hi jemhunter,
It is likely that you will damage the pan during the demolition of the tiles and/or the removal of the thinset/mortar. The damage might not be visible but the water will find it for sure. Short answer: Yes!
Maybe I'm not understanding you... Did you describe having drywall behind your shower walls? Unless it is a specific waterproof gyp board or a cementitious board, this too could pose problems in the future. If I misunderstood you, my apologies.
Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I am not sure what type is the wall board. The texture is similar to sheetrock/drywall. Since the cement wall is bonded to it, I can't tell if there is some kind of built in water barrier in between. Everything looks in good condition and I was really surprised how easy the tiles came off. Half of them came off in one piece and the back of is so clean that I can reuse them as is if i wanted to.

Given removing the floor tiles will likely damage the pan, can I just remove the topmost deck mud but leave the hot mop and drain. Then rebuild the top deck mud.

Regards


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Okay I was dead wrong, this shower was leaking and my subfloor, frame and trusses were damaged. Contractors advised me to get s structural engineers to draft a repair method first and a city permit.

I understand the permit and inspection vary by city, but I am trying to prepare myself for that.

If I need to get a frame inspection, they will see my tear down shower. Will I be required to have the rest inspected (e.g. water proofing, drywall, tile, etc)? How long do these steps usually take?

Thanks


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

You had an engineer inspect the site and advise you on repairs?

These are the typical inspections involved in a bathroom job.
Rough inspection--Includes: framing. plumbing (flood test of pan before tiling also)and electrical
Then the final--That's it--two inspections.

There are several ways to build a safe,long lasting shower---what type do you prefer?

Cast onyx --fiberglass---cast iron, tiled?


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

I dont have an engineer yet. I was planning on doing the bathroom remodel myself. What I had in mind was retiling the shower and add body sprays, changing the counter top, vanity, sink, and tile bathroom floor. No structural changes. Mostly cosmetic.

And I didn't expect to have to deal w/ framing damage. I didn't think (know) it was leaking. I was looking for just help to fix the frame but most contractors wouldn't say much until they see what an structural engineer has to say about the repair. Bummer!

I plan on retiling it and still undecided about the waterproofing part. Any recommendation on the following

1) pre slope make of deck mud or plywood?
2) plastic liner, hot mop, redguard, Schluter?

How can they inspect framing and flood test at once? The floor will be done and they won't see the repair on the trusses under the subfloor. Can't see the framing walls, electrical, etc if I do the schulter waterproofing which requires the walls to be installed first.

Thanks


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I can see that this is all new to you---The inspectors don't look at everything----

An engineer is seldom used for a job like this-----you are simply rebuilding damaged work---so post pictures of what you have and we will walk you through the steps---or offer some idea what you should expect if you hire out the work.

Read some of the older threads in the tiling section for an understanding of the different types of showers.

There are three common methods---
Mud pan with preslope and PVC liner---

Mud bed with surface membrane --usually painted on--(Hydroban by Latacrete)

Schluter Kerdi pan and Kardi---

Hot mop is used only in California and Arizona--I am not familiar with that method---

All three are good if done correctly---I prefer the mud pan with liner---but also use the Hydroban when building on a slab----

Schluter has a great reputation for waterproofing---but I have never used it---


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Thank you Mike. I am describing what I see and attaching some pics

1) The horizontal joist supporting the vertical studs is the most damaged piece. At least 5 ft of it has been partially damaged. It runs along an exterior wall.
2) The vertical 2x4 of the left outside wall sitting on the joist 1) are rotten at the base. The bottom 6" looks bad.
3) The trusses supporting the subfloor have water damage as well but just about 1/8" deep on the surface is affected. Not sure how long the trusses are, but they do run outside of teh shower stall.
4) The subfloor was really wet and broke off as we walk on it. That is both, the wooden (ply wood) pre-slope and the flat subfloor. It must be leaking for a while now. The insulation under the subfloor look clean, I don't believe it was dripping yet.

The shower is on the second floor above our kitchen tucked in a corner of the house. The walls are stucco. The shower had a hot mop and tiled. Everything is dry now. The area w/ water damage is 2x5 ft and run along that outside wall.

(Sorry, somehow the 4 first pics are now upside down)


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

More pics


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

picture w/ the proper orientation (sorry)


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

Well--that's an ugly mess----

Those are floor trusses----You will not be cutting out the bad wood and replacing it---

This is one of the accepted methods of repairing /strengthening floor trusses.

You are going to cut slices of 3/4" BC plywood the depth of the truss--11 1/4"?
Then you will use PL premium adhesive and nails and cover both sides of the weakened truss

When the truss is boxed,well past the problem area, you will add another layer of ply to give you a total of 1 1/2" on both sides---if there is going to be a lap/seam--stagger the seams.

This is a strong repair and is also used to stiffen up the trusses---they are rather bouncy (lots of deflection) and often need boxing to be strong enough for tile.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

Thanks a lot Mike. It is messy indeed. A few questions/clarifications on your method if you don't mind:

1) How many feet should I go "well past the problem area"? Would it be proportional to the length of the problem area?

2) Does the plywood have to rest on the frame below (the one holding the ceiling of the first floor)?

3) Would it be problem if I cut a notch into the plywood because there is drain running perpendicular to the trusses?

4) What are the advantage of the boxing method vs sistering it w/ 2 beam of the same size as the truss on both sides? Is it to take advantage of the diagonal beam under the truss?


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I would suggest 6 to 8 feet ----

Notching should be avoided,but would work if you are not in an area of rot----

I like the box method over sistering in this case----Mike----


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

If I keep the truss in place, given they are rotten on the top surface, this would create a gap between part of the truss and the new subfloor. If there is no gap then the floor must not be leveled.
many thanks for your suggestion.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

The new side boards will give you a flat ,level? , nailing surface for the new subfloor.

Measure the depth of the floor trusses----rip your plywood the same as the trusses, or perhaps 1/4" narrower ---to give you a little play room---


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

oh'mike said:


> I would suggest 6 to 8 feet ----
> 
> Notching should be avoided,but would work if you are not in an area of rot----
> 
> I like the box method over sistering in this case----Mike----


It's pretty close to the damaged area. You can see on the second picture, there is a black pipe below the melding metal plates.

I am not be able to go as far back as 8ft. The bathtub is 3 ft away from this area and the trusses run under them.

Really appreciate your help Mike.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

I see the pipe now----notch the board around that----you are into good truss by that pointonly go a foot or so past the pipe---


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

to replace the sole plate at the bottom of the exterior wall, how can I support the roof/ceiling while I remove the 2x4?

I'd like to remove it, clean up the area, apply wood hardener to the joist right below it, then put a new 2x4 back.
Should I replace the entire bottom plate or just cut out the rotten section?

Thanks


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

This is the repair I have in mind for the trusses. I tried to incorporate several methods and I think it won't hurt to over re-enforce the trusses. My assumption is I am not cutting any truss and will only re-enforce them. Even though one of them has rot up to 1 inch in the center of the hole out of a 2" thick 2x4. I am also avoiding to nail into the bad wood because it might further weaken it.

1) remove the bad wood (not cutting the truss), sand the area a bit, and apply wood hardener to prevent the spores to spread (/// in the picture)
2) put a U-shaped metal stud over the bad wood (green line in the picture) that overlap 1ft w/ the good wood.
3) use 2x4 and make a "block" to support the truss from under (green color in the picture)
4) put 3/4" plywood on each side using liquid nails and screws. Only apply to where the plywood makes contact w/ good wood and avoid the manufactured metal plates (red dots in the picture)
5) may be put one more piece of plywood on each side for a total of 4.

Any feedback would be very appreciated.


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## jemhunter (May 2, 2013)

One burning question is, if I don't nail into the bad wood area (//// dashed in the picture) would I still accomplish the desired strength?


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