# So I managed to wet sand and polish latex on my cabinets and...now this!?



## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

Months after my goose bumps problem...and after developing a zen level of Buddha-like patience...I'm finally getting somewhere. I'm able to successfully do this on both the satin gloss Insul-X Cabinet Coat or semi gloss Valspar Reserve paint+primer(they handle completely different throughout the process and react to different steps very differently). The only problem is, they scratch if you as much as breathe on them.










I taped off sections using scotch tape, since I ran out of painter's tape, to perform different polishing tests and show the difference. The matte section in the front is wet sanded to 1200 grit, while the shiny sections which look identical here, were sanded to 1200, then polished with Maguire's Mirror Glaze 205 and white rouge polishing compound. 








From this angle it looks perfect, but other angles will show there are still some 2000 grit level scratches when polished with just the 205. It wasn't powerful enough, so I did end up investing in 3000 level grit sand paper and Ultimate Compound, before using the 205 which does appear to take care of the final high grit scratches. I might end up going even higher, to 5000 or 7000 just because it offers more control than dealing with oily polishers, that are incredibly tricky to remove from the surface and dry up very quickly on you. Chalk that up to yet another issue that must be kept in mind when dealing with latexes. 

*After all that work, time, effort and experimentation, this is only worth doing If I can find an answer to this problem:*









If you as much as gently _touch_ it with a fingernail, it leaves a permanent scratch. The uncured(7 days old) Valspar is easier to scratch and much tougher to remove, but the Urethane enforced Cabinet Coat scratches as well, though easier to remove. Either way, with either paint, it's incredibly, incredibly easy to scratch, once polished this smooth. The scratches must be polished out again, with a polishing compound followed by a couple of pure polishers, to remove:










Now any shiny surface will scratch up, but I'm talking barely _touching it_ with your finger nails here, will leave scratch marks. Not very practical considering these will be handled on a daily basis in the kitchen. So if I am to actually do this, I need some sort of protection against this, otherwise, as nice as it looks it's completely for naught and something better reserved for other objects.

*
Any ideas or suggestions? Wax? Glaze? Anything that could help prevent this?*


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Did you end up thinning the paint like you talked about? 

Your first thread about this inspired me to try wet sanding some BM advance in between finish coats of a brushed finish. Just a little water and some 400 grit wet/dry paper did a lot. I liked the result.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

You do realize latex is rubber, right? Even with additives it is still rubber


Latex paints are designed to be flexible ergo a shine like you are dealing with is not what it was designed for. I don't know what you are painting with it but from the appearance you desire, well let's just say Steinway doesn't paint their pianos with latex for a reason. 

I do have to commend you on your patience and success though. 

I have no idea if there are any clear gloss paints that are intentionally hard surfaced compatible with your paint but I suspect that is the way to go if possible.


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> Did you end up thinning the paint like you talked about?
> 
> Your first thread about this inspired me to try wet sanding some BM advance in between finish coats of a brushed finish. Just a little water and some 400 grit wet/dry paper did a lot. I liked the result.


Good to hear. Advance was actually my number once choice before I started, but the fact people were complaining about yellowing is why I didn't go that route. The only reason why I even attempted this was due to yellowing in oil based paints. Cabinet Coat levels out pretty smooth on its own as well. Otherwise, I would have easily gone with oil or Advance. How is it holding up for you in that department?

And yeah, I did thin the Cabinet Coat to 10%, but it still doesn't level as nice as it did at 30%. Although now I don't care as much as I have gotten pretty good at painting with the brush and wet sanding brush marks to a smooth finish, even though it took a lot of time and experimentation to finally get the hang of it. It's not forgiving at all and with latex it's the complete opposite of oil. You want thick, even coats, as opposed to thin, because the layers remain separate, so the top coat especially needs to be thick enough to give you room for sanding and polishing so you don't burn through it. The Valspar pictured above does not level smooth at all compared to CC, and it's a pain in the butt to sand as well.


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

nap said:


> You do realize latex is rubber, right? Even with additives it is still rubber
> 
> 
> Latex paints are designed to be flexible ergo a shine like you are dealing with is not what it was designed for. I don't know what you are painting with it but from the appearance you desire, well let's just say Steinway doesn't paint their pianos with latex for a reason.
> ...




nap, yes I think I at least realize what I am dealing with. I don't know about piano finish, but I think the results speak for themselves, and it probably scratches as well. I did this because I did not want to deal with the yellowing of oil based products. Having said that, if I knew the amount of effort required to _learn_ how to do this properly, let's just say I would take the yellowing, and just repaint and re-sand oil if needed, as learning how to properly wet sand latex to that level, without stripping, without burning through a layer to end up with glossy rings, or witness marks is a test in human patience. I definitely would not advise anyone to do this knowing what it takes, unless you have the patience of a monk, don't mind driving your spouse, roomates crazy for the amount of time it takes, and you absolutely want to avoid yellowing at all costs and can't find a suitable alternative. But now it's too late and I'm way too deep to go back, all I need is the final piece to the puzzle in order to pull it off. Other than the scratching issue, which really happens on any glossy surface, I couldn't be happier with the results. 

As I said in my opening post I'm testing the method on two paints, Insul-X Cabinet Coat, which is actually reinforced with Urethane, and dries a bit tougher than typical acrylics, and Valspar Reserve paint+primer in one, which has the worst reviews in the world, yet I seem to be able to make work for this and I actually prefer the color of it over CC because I think the BM guys at the store messed it up.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

No. Pianos do not scratch like your work does. It is because they use a paint that is designed to give a gloss finish and not be marred like yours. They don't use latex. Of course you can scratch even s diamond so yes, everything scratches but not as easily as your work. 


As I said before, I give you credit for what you have accomplished. What I see looks great. I really hope you do end up with the result you are working towards.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

My guess is that you've simply weakened the film by wet sanding it. What would be ideal IMO would be to get the surfaces coated and sanded to their final smoothness then apply one more finish coat and leave it alone. For what your looking for spraying is probably the only option, unless you can become an expert with the roller/brush or learn to live with slight brush marks. 

It may be possible that you've simply retarded the curing process with the wet sanding and the film will harden more with time. How long have your test pieces had to cure?


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> My guess is that you've simply weakened the film by wet sanding it. What would be ideal IMO would be to get the surfaces coated and sanded to their final smoothness then apply one more finish coat and leave it alone. For what your looking for spraying is probably the only option, unless you can become an expert with the roller/brush or learn to live with slight brush marks.
> 
> It may be possible that you've simply retarded the curing process with the wet sanding and the film will harden more with time. How long have your test pieces had to cure?


It's not that because you have to apply it pretty thick to even pull this off. It scratches just as easily even if you do not wet sand it. I just tested it, so if I take my nail and apply it over the original painted surface, prior to wet sanding, same thing. The difference is, when it's perfectly smooth, it's noticeable. When it's got brush marks, or orange peel, you don't notice it.

If I apply a final coat again, it kind of defeats the purpose as it won't come close to that level. Not even spraying will. The only way to achieve that is wet sanding and polishing.

I just need a suitable layer of protection on top for minor scuffs and scratches like that.


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

nap said:


> No. Pianos do not scratch like your work does. It is because they use a paint that is designed to give a gloss finish and not be marred like yours. They don't use latex. Of course you can scratch even s diamond so yes, everything scratches but not as easily as your work.
> 
> 
> As I said before, I give you credit for what you have accomplished. What I see looks great. I really hope you do end up with the result you are working towards.


The surface doesn't scratch any easier than if you don't wet sand it. As I explained above, the only difference is, when you have a mirror like level, added with a fine layer of polishing oils, you can actually see the small scratches. Much like you can on a car on a clear coat. If you wipe your car with a rough towel, you will end up scratching the clear coat as well. If you put oily fingers on a black finish, they're highly noticeable. Same for that piano.

In fact those are exactly the type of scratches I'm dealing with:

















The surface is so smooth, that wiping it with the wrong towel or material will introduce visible scratches.

If anything, a smoother surface actually helps, since friction is reduced, and objects slide off the surface much easier. Basic physics.

Wet sanding and polishing doesn't cause it to scratch easier, it's the paint itself. All it does is make them _noticeable_. 

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm talking about very fine scratches, exactly like on that piano. The kind you can only notice in light glare, not from any other angle. Not something you can fell or notice unless you view them from the right angle.

The problem is when you're talking about something you are using on a regular basis, washing with a sponge, wiping with kitchen towels, or even brushing against it, you're going to end up with a lot of those fine scratches. I need something to help prevent them.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

> Wet sanding and polishing doesn't cause it to scratch easier, it's the paint itself. .


that is what I have been saying.

I don't see much in the line of fine scratching on the pianos. On the brown one I see a poor finish. On the black one I see the result of years of use. 


but what you use on a car to prevent fine scratches and hide existing scratches and what you do for cars for the same reasons as well as the fact it was commonplace years ago; regularly waxing


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## Jimbo'sPurdy (Jan 1, 2015)

nap said:


> that is what I have been saying.
> 
> I don't see much in the line of fine scratching on the pianos. On the brown one I see a poor finish. On the black one I see the result of years of use.
> 
> ...


Regular waxing was one option. Something more permanent, would be ideal though.

I think the contrasting light and highly glossed surface in my first image might be causing some confusion as to the type of scratches I am referring to. And I also exagerrated my nail scratches a bit for that pic, because the camera has a hard time picking them up. We are not talking visible under _normal_ circumstances. So I took a couple of more pics that will hopefully better illustrate what I am referring to.


For example, this piece was just painted yesterday with a single layer, rolled thin, on 220 sanded single primer layer, with both Valspar and CC, and on the edges I foam brushed a line to test out the difference.

The camera was about 2 feet away. From this distance, you can hardly notice orange peel or brush marks, let alone scratches:










From 6 inches to a foot, head on, no scratches are visible either:

















From this distance you can notice the orange peel on the Valspar, not so much on the Cabinet Coat. CC looks almost as if it was sprayed, and applying it thick and thinned with a nice brush it pretty much levels. Still no visible scratches.

But glance in almost parallel light...:




















And even on brushed or finely rolled freshly painted surface, you end up with these hairline scratches.Whether or not you wet sand the piece, I'm still going to end up getting them, the difference is they're nowhere near as noticeable when you have heavy orange peel and brush marks compared to when when you level it to a mirror finish. If this surface was smooth and glossy, those scratches would appear to be much worse and would be much more noticeable, more like in the first pic I showed. 

Again I realize latex is softer than other paints, and Cabinet Coat is probably somewhere between a latex and an old school, single stage, urethane based, car paint. But these hairline scratches are also typical of just about any lacquered, clear coat, shellacked surfaces after even a couple of days of handling. I have plenty of living room furniture lacquered and they're present on those as well in glancing light. 


Those hairline scratches were incurred just from handling it, and setting it down, sliding it and picking it up on that bed sheet that's acting as a table cloth. These would normally not be a problem in a dim light, or on typical living room furniture, walls, etc, but I have very bright daylight in my kitchen so you would definitely end up seeing them at eye level pieces, in glancing light, after they add up in a couple of months.


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## unidrv (Oct 8, 2020)

I am getting into this a wee bit late, but thought I would add my 2 cents worth. Great advice all round from what I have read so far from other members. I am refinishing a prebuilt curved staircase. Currently it is the dated "honey oak", and, well, it did need some restructuring and firming up from below. But when speaking of getting things smooth enough to satisfy, and we will all have a different level of acceptance regarding that, I am so anal about the 100% thing. I sanded 80 grit, to the bare wood on bannisters, then 120 grit, then 180 grit, then tack clothed, then dampened (Varsol) micro cloth to remove any dust remaining. Two primer coats of KILZ, then LIGHTLY wet sanded at 400, then 600 after that. Baby's bum smooth, but that's before the finish coat. With latex finish, (we have decided upon satin black for bannisters, and treads, so chose porch and floor paint from Behr's premium line) it's a bit different sanding that. Between coats of finish (there were four, the last two were cut 10-15% water) Cutting the paint down helps the paint lay down better, faster, and even dries a bit quicker to avoid extra wet time to take on new dust. After waiting 72 hours for curing I 600 water sanded any small peaks of particulate, and there were a few. The final stage will be to use Rustoleum Varathane PRO, clear satin OIL BASE X4 coats to protect my masterpiece, and, yes 600G wet sand DUST PEAKS. When we say it takes all the patience a human could possibly muster, we aren't short stepping you in any way. REMEMBER this is YOUR project, and you want it to be the very best you can make it, but try to ENJOY the beauty you are creating, and the process it takes doing so. I have been working on our stairs for a month a few hours a day, and when it is finished, I think it's worth the time to learn, and perform everything to perfection. Love reading about how different folks approach different projects here, so please keep writing, and we can all keep learning.


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