# Renovating old Church: How to fix Leaning Exterior Wall



## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You are going to need an engineer to look over the plans, and figure out a solution to fix the leaning walls. Afraid to tell you, but this job could end up costing you more than you gambled at the start.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

Yes, I plan on hiring an engineer, but thought I would also get some opinions from a couple of engineers here as well. Considering we purchased the old church from the city for $1 as a part of an economic revival plan, and have a $200k budget to make it how we want it...I think we will be okay. Now, I didn't ask if anyone thought it would be costly, I asked how something like this typically gets repaired. Thank you.


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## gregzoll (Dec 25, 2006)

You will not get any opinions on this forum, due to it is a diyer forum, not a contractor forum. There is contractorstalk.com, but they will most likely state the same that I did, and that is consult with an engineer, due to a Internet forum is not the correct way to do this job.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

This sounds like a very interesting project, but frankly I am too busy with paying projects to take the time required to review plans, photos, and your blog to offer an intelligent opinion as to the specific cause of leaning walls, or whether your specific case is a structural issue or simply a cosmetic issue.

So I don't totally waste your time, I can tell you from previous projects I have worked on that leaning walls can be caused by a number of factors. The following list is not an exhaustive one, but should give you some idea where to start looking:

1. Framing problems, specifically look at the connections between joists, rafters and walls.

2. Long term lateral load from the roof causing outward thrust on the walls due to the geometry of the framing, causing long term creep.

3. Excessive loading due to heavy snow load, or an unusual wind event, overstressing structural elements.

4. Differential foundation settlement.

5. Lateral earth loading on the foundation causing the foundation to go out of plumb, affecting the walls.

To determine the cause, you generally need to start with a very careful instrument survey of the building to determine how much settlement has occurred, and exactly how far out of plumb each wall is. This cannot be done by eye, and is actually harder to perform correctly than it sounds. Usually only after the settlement and out of plumb conditions have been accurately measured can you begin to determine the cause.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Just curious, are there other walls that are leaning *in* the same amount as these walls lean out? If not it had to be framed that way or something structural has been compromised and you will need to find why and correct or the wall could continue to spread.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

@Daniel...

Thank you for your post. I accept that i need to have a strucural engineer come on site and give a professional opinion. However, I think it is also appropriate for one to do independent homework before such a meeting so that i can be familiar with the nomenclature of the engineer and put myself in a position that I actually understand any feedback they provide. 

While I am not a structural engineer, I am pretty smart (modesty aside) and learn quickly. Of the bullet points you numbered above, the cause of the walls being out of plumb is almost certainly due to #2. The foundation is perfect and the floors are level. The main level has a vaulted ceiling with only collar ties preventing lateral movement. The collar ties are 19' above the main level floor, or 7' above where the roof comes into contact with the tops of the walls.

I am not looking for someone to tell me how to fix this issue online so much as trying to get an idea of what my immediate future will entail. If #2 is the cause, then what is the typical solution? Is there typically a fix to this issue or is it more of a tear apart and rebuild situation.

@Greg: DIY forums typically exist for pros to help out the layman. If it were DIYers only giving advice to other DIYers, then it would be a bit like the blind leading the blind.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

@ Jim

No, all of the walls appear to out of plumb at the top going OUTWARD. The south wall is more severe at about 2 1/2 inches. The other walls vary from 1/2" to 1". I believe the south wall goes out more because it is the tallest uninterrupted wall with the least amount of support preventing lateral movement due to the roof. The north wall doesn't really even exist because a giant bulkhead supports the slope of the roof to the north and is interrupted by another roof that slopes to the opposite direction that is over a stage and bell tower. 


See the images on Facebook through the images below:

Southwest Exterior Corner (Before Renovation)

South Wall (Exterior)

South Wall (Interior)

Northeast Corner (Exterior prior to renovation)

Northeast Corner (Exterior During Renovation) 

The Facebook pictures themselves have explanations throughout the album of what you are looking at and how they relate to the blueprints.[/quote]


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Dutch, go outside and sight down the fascia of the cornice and see if it bows out in the middle. It sounds like the ridge may have dropped and the walls are spreading or the rafters in the vault are pushing the wall out or the rafters could be pulling loose. Anyway, the source must be found and corrected or it will get worse, unless it is stabilized in the shape it is now, which I don't advise. 

Another thought, if there are ties installed (ceiling joists) half way up the rafters there could be a belly pulled in the rafters, Go outside and sight up the rafters to see if there is a belly in any of them. If there is, more than likely it will be the center rafters that will have the belly.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

This is the best image I have of the inside roof structure. This might give you a better idea of what I am talking about.


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## TrapperL (Jul 23, 2011)

Looking at your plan and pics, I'd say the roof load has pushed the wall out. It can be brought back by using a cabling system but an engineer will have to design it. The cables will remain afterwards. I also see doors opening into a public building. Might wanna check with local codes but that's a recognized fire hazard. All doors must open out and you may find that the local code requires crash hardware. The glass might be required to be laminated for safety.
Looks like a dandy project.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

Is there a beam for the ridge or is it tied together with something?


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

TrapperL said:


> Looking at your plan and pics, I'd say the roof load has pushed the wall out. It can be brought back by using a cabling system but an engineer will have to design it. The cables will remain afterwards. I also see doors opening into a public building. Might wanna check with local codes but that's a recognized fire hazard. All doors must open out and you may find that the local code requires crash hardware. The glass might be required to be laminated for safety.
> Looks like a dandy project.


I figured it might require a cabling system, but it is not desirable to leave them there. I am hoping the use of new collar ties positioned below the current ones might hold everything in place after such cabling system could be removed.

The middle set of french doors open outward, while the french doors on either side open inward. There is no city code that specifies what is appropriate. Since these three sets of french doors replaced three windows that one could not really reach, I think we have increase the safety level. The main room now has no less than 5 sets of double doors exiting directly to the outside from a 1200sqft area. I think we will be okay in that regard.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

jiju1943 said:


> Is there a beam for the ridge or is it tied together with something?


The rafters end on three layers of 2x6 laying on their sides (so the equivalent of one continuous 6x6 running the length of the wall).


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

I do have a structural engineering firm scheduled to meet me on site at 8am on Saturday. Hopefully they will bring good news.


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## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

Collar ties are never intended to act as a substitute for floor joists or similar structural elements that hold walls plumb. The function of a collar tie is to distribute uneven uplift on the roof across the ridge board. Unfortunately a lot of people, including framers and a few non-structural engineers, are under the mistaken impression that a collar tie is intended to tie the two walls together.

Without a detailed understanding of the history of construction, I can't determine why there does not appear to be a more robust structural system for tieing the walls together. Usually this is provided by floor joists, or there may be a ridge beam rather than a ridge board; if there is a properly supported ridge beam, and proper connection of the rafters to the ridge beam, no outward thrust is generated, and you do not need floor joists to hold the walls plumb (you don't need the collar ties either). I am speculating that during the gutting process, something changed in the structure of the building, and perhaps that is when the walls began to lean.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

The church sold the building to an individual. That individual gutted 90% of the building and began putting different rooms in the space. The individual did not subsequently pay his taxes, and the city foreclosed on the building. We acquired the building from the city for $1 with the promise that we would bring business to this small town with a population of 1,000. Since most of the building was gutted before we acquired it, it is really difficult for us to say what occurred over the course of the last 80 years, and what occurred during the last 3 years in which it was gutted and vacant.

We have a civil engineer and a structural engineer coming to look at it at 8am on Saturday. I have had a brief discussion with one of them and provided him the link to all of our pictures. They are going to make a recommendation as to what (if anything) needs to be done. They will also take a look through everything we have already fixed to be sure our solutions were sound ones. I hope they give us good news on Saturday. I just wanted to also get expert advice on this forum so as to have something to compare to the recommendation of the engineer we hired.


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## dutchswan0311 (Sep 13, 2011)

The engineer's report should be to us by Friday, September 23. I am hoping for good news.


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## kchunt (Aug 15, 2011)

*renovation old church*

What a deluxe project.There a several old stores,and other old barnes in our town that have collar ties,some as much as 10' o.c.on long side.They have historic value.One building is cut placreite rock 24"x16" blocks,They do distract in looks but the other option is a pile of rock on the ground. I worked on one small single story 12' walls.The walls were doing the same thing your church is doing.Only not as large as yours is.The collor ties were put in first,drilled thru the walls with a 4x8 as outside ledger the full length of building.Then with a6x6 at bottom of rough cut 2x6 rafters,5 house jacks with a man on each raised the roof slowly together.as this was being done we were tighten the nuts on outside collor ties together.The walls came back to plumb as what a125 year building would be.They later found out the top of rafters , the nails were coming loose.That led to 50% of rafters were doing the work,that led the rafters to settle thus the walls took the pressure to lean out. Then a lot of rafter ties,straps and other hardware to stiffen.really a learning process for me good luck.Ken
We all no alot but can only do a little-----:yes:an:no:


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