# Front windows leaking



## Windows on Wash

Need close up pictures of the exterior in this case as well.

Mullions are notorious leakers and especially if the leak is showing at the head of the window.

If the window was not sealed properly to the framing first, there isn't much you can do on the outside to stop leaks that come through the mortar.


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## Tom Struble

yea

the vent absolutely could be your problem,they should have a pitched pan to catch any water that could blow through,but nobody usually does it

pull some rock thats directly under the vent see what it looks like 

stone/concrete on wood needs careful detailing before application of the product is started,as you have seen caulking isn't going to solve your problem


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## Gary in WA

How about a picture of the attic side of the gable vent and include the plywood below it?

Gary


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## HomeSealed

If I was purely guessing, I'd say that it is probably coming somewhere around the top window opening and running down. The vent is a possibility as well. Check inside the attic below the vent like Gary mentioned (if it is accessible). A closeup of the trim/flashing around the windows would be helpful as well, particularly the top and bottom pieces. If the windows were properly flashed, water would be directed around the opening even if it is getting behind the stone.


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## dengle

I did go up to the attic and took a look around behind that mullion and didn't see any obvious water penetration. Once I get done with some painting my wife has volunteered me for  hopefully in the next day or two, I'll take a trip back up to the attic for some better pictures. 

As to pulling some rock around the mullion, I'll need a good 30' ladder to get up there perhaps longer as my neighbor's 28' was just big enough to caulk the 2nd floor window. I'll probably have to defer to a professional if it gets to that point. 

I'm thinking the point of entry is still the 2nd floor window. I know water travels in odd paths, but if water was coming in from above the 2nd floor window (i.e. mullion), you would think *some* sign of water damage would be in that room/window as well. 

As for the windows, here are some close-ups of the first floor window flashing. If you want a different perspective let me know. The 2nd floor window looks to be done about the same way. The mullion has mortar flush up against it. I tried taking some pictures of the 2nd floor/mullion, but my camera with an optical zoom is hiding from me and the clarity just isn't there with my phone's camera.

First floor window: 
right side of window: 







Original size: http://www.theengles.info/window/window1.jpg

Bottom right corner:







Original size: http://www.theengles.info/window/window2.jpg

Bottom right corner (top down view):







Original size: http://www.theengles.info/window/window3.jpg

view of top of window:







Original size: http://www.theengles.info/window/window4.jpg


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## Tom Struble

no drip,i would be willing to bet that the head flange is on top of the wrb


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## dengle

Tom Struble said:


> no drip,i would be willing to bet that the head flange is on top of the wrb


What is "wrb"?



Windows on Wash said:


> If the window was not sealed properly to the framing first, there isn't much you can do on the outside to stop leaks that come through the mortar.


How would that be remedied if that's the culprit? Remove the windows and reinstall? Would it have to be full tear-out (new construction vs replacement, I guess?) The current windows are actually cheap builder-grade items. I think i had single-pane windows in a previous house that were more efficient so am considering replacing the windows in the near-ish future. 

Another "bonus" that I found is the strong smell of mold (smells like mildewy dish towels) when I removed the old caulk around the interior window. Due to time, I have to just seal it back up for now, but will need to get that remediated (very!) soon as well. 

I swear i think I purchased the house from "The Money Pit" with all of the issues that have krept up. I think I got most of them resolved save for this {censored} window. It's amazing all of the issues an 8 1/2 year old house has.


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## Windows on Wash

Tom Struble said:


> no drip,i would be willing to bet that the head flange is on top of the wrb


Weather Resistant Barrier

FYI, the mullion strip is not in the attic. The mullion is between the windows and is what joins those three units together.

I would like to see a picture of that cladding work at the top of the window if you can get a shot from the top.

You will probably want to open up that drywall above the window as well and start with a water test.


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## HomeSealed

I'm on exactly the same page as Tom at this point.


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## Windows on Wash

dengle said:


> What is "wrb"?
> 
> 
> 
> How would that be remedied if that's the culprit? Remove the windows and reinstall? Would it have to be full tear-out (new construction vs replacement, I guess?) The current windows are actually cheap builder-grade items. I think i had single-pane windows in a previous house that were more efficient so am considering replacing the windows in the near-ish future.
> 
> Another "bonus" that I found is the strong smell of mold (smells like mildewy dish towels) when I removed the old caulk around the interior window. Due to time, I have to just seal it back up for now, but will need to get that remediated (very!) soon as well.
> 
> *I swear i think I purchased the house from "The Money Pit" with all of the issues that have krept up. I think I got most of them resolved save for this {censored} window. It's amazing all of the issues an 8 1/2 year old house has.*


Welcome to home ownership my friend.

Most of the housing stock that is newer is far worse than the older stuff from a build quality standpoint.

You need to determine the source of the leak first and foremost. Then handle any mold and mildew treatment.

Only want to do a proper full tear out and new construction is going to be by replacing some of the stone work at the same time or creating some sort of trim detail.


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## HomeSealed

Windows on Wash said:


> Most of the housing stock that is newer is far worse than the older stuff from a build quality standpoint.


:yes::yes::yes:


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## kwikfishron

The water test would be my next step. It’s pretty easy to figure out where the water is getting in at with a hose test. 

As mentioned no drip edge at the top of the trim raises questions about the whole installation.

You’re not going to fix the problem with caulk. Calking, at best may provide a temporary Band-Aid but is not a fix. 

I don’t see how you could fix this without removing rock. If you plan to diy then rent some scaffolding or a lift. I wouldn’t attempt it off a ladder.


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## HomeSealed

Ron is right on. Both window openings need to be flashed properly whether they are both currently leaking or not. Some stone will need to be removed around the openings to do so. 
A leak test to narrow it down would not hurt, but the problem needs to be addressed regardless, or it will just cause more problems down the road.
The only possible "easy remedy", would be if when they did the capping, they wrapped over an existing drip cap, thereby directing water into the opening. The only way to find out would be to rip off the top piece of aluminum. 
See the infamous "four finger" pic attached.:thumbup:


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## dengle

Windows on Wash said:


> Weather Resistant Barrier
> 
> FYI, the mullion strip is not in the attic. The mullion is between the windows and is what joins those three units together.
> 
> I would like to see a picture of that cladding work at the top of the window if you can get a shot from the top.


Ah. I never heard the term and thought it was the technical name for the round vent! Now the conversations are making more sense  . lets see if this gets the detail you were looking for.
This its as high as I could get without getting a ladder before I ran to the store








Bottom closeup of the mullion









It'll take a while but ill break out the hose in the next few days hopefully for a water test.


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## Tom Struble

you could probably just cut the caulk at the window/head and pull it out to take a peek:wink:

be careful up there


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## Alfalfamike

From the looks of your pics it appears that the windows were not flashed properly. Our company has been across this country repairing issues such as this and the culprit has been, far and away, improper flashing/installation of weather barrier. Pray that its just a flashing issue that can be repaired with minimal rock removal.


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## dengle

Well, it's raining today (a light rain, but enough wind where it hits the front of the house) and the window is again leaking. Unfortunately, this level of masonry and reflashing (if that's all it is) is a bit beyond my scope of DIY (no metal brake or masonry tools). 

I'm going to take the plunge and call someone to see about repairing it. I'll keep you posted as to the exact cause once someone comes to open it up.


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## HomeSealed

That probably a good choice.:thumbsup:


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## Windows on Wash

HomeSealed said:


> That probably a good choice.:thumbsup:


+1 :thumbsup:

Post back up after you get the contractor out there and what his discovery is.


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## Gary in WA

Check out this window detail (with sealant/flashing for the different expansion/contraction rate materials) at the jambs compared to yours, and the head/sill: http://www.reisterstownlumber.com/images/usv_installation_procedures_new.pdf

Gary


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## dengle

Well, I had a general Contractor come out to take a look and he agrees that the windows were not installed correctly but could not tell if that was the cause of the leak. He did say he didn't feel comfortable with the job due to the Masonry involved and the unknown source of the leak. he mentioned that such an issue might be covered under homeowners insurance. is that possible? I haven't dug out my policy yet to see what's covered. 

As an added bonus I found more issues with this front window. what do water and wood typically bring? yep some kind of bug infestation. 

With obvious signs of water on the carpet tack strip:










Better picture of the bugs. winged ants, termites or carpenter ants? I saw no live ones which leads me to believe they were previously treated by the prior owner.








The joys of home ownership!
Edit: multiple word issues due to using phone with poor Auto correct...


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## hammerlane

I had a mystery leak into a 1st floor bay window only during wind driven rains. After thinking it was a flashing issue above the bay window I had the counter flashing replaced. Leaks continued only during wind driven rains. My culprits were the window sills of two windows on 2nd floor above the bay.

-I ended up having all seven rowlock sills replaced with limestone sills on front of house.

At first my worst thought was that the brick veneer was screwed up somehow. I had a local company that does brick restoration come in and he showed be a Rhilem Tube test to demonstrate how the brick can absorb water.

Here is an excellent video demonstrating a Rhilem Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFurv7A42tM


After learning that brick veneer--mortar joints and bricks--can absorb water, I had a water repellent made by Prosoco called Siloxane WB concentrate applied by to entire front brick veneer of the house.

http://www.prosoco.com/Products/8258d9d8-28ee-4e2b-adc6-57731831a3c9

I know in your situation you do not have the window sills as I did but do not rule out the possibility of the stone veneer leaching water to the backside of the veneer. With a hose test hopefully you can narrow down your culprit.


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## Windows on Wash

I would plan on, and you might be just as advised, to gut the interior walls around the windows and get a real up close and personal look at the source of the leaks.

I will likely be required by any insurance adjuster as well.


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## Windows on Wash

Any masonry wall is going to leak water and not be water tight...hence the reasoning behind a vented wall assembly.

The issue in this case is likely going to be a result of the tie in of the window to the home and the lack of water management at the window.


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## dengle

Windows on Wash said:


> I would plan on, and you might be just as advised, to gut the interior walls around the windows and get a real up close and personal look at the source of the leaks.
> 
> I will likely be required by any insurance adjuster as well.


I may have to do that to fix the water damaged subfloor under the window anyway. its pretty black... as to the hose test, when the weather is warmer, I'll be doing that. 
In regards to using a sealer for the mortar, shouldn't the installation have taken the water permeability into account? I could have sworn I read that sealing stone facing may not be the breast thing for it...?


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## hammerlane

dengle said:


> I could have sworn I read that sealing stone facing may not be the breast thing for it...?


You are correct. And I did not reference using a sealer. 

I referenced using a water repellent.

Big difference.

The Prosoco product will not. impair the natural breathing characteristics of treated surfaces.

As a note to others reading this. Above I referenced the Siloxane WB concentrate. This needs to be mixed on site with specific quantities of water. The company that applied it for me were the experts so thats what they used. They did tell me if I were to do it myself they recommended the Siloxane PD which is pre-diluted. Its ready to be applied right out of the container.

http://www.prosoco.com/Products/d113db5a-0836-4c51-822e-b0006e080476


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## Tom Struble

i know your situation was different,but usually i find the problem is not as ''exotic'' as absorption:no: usually it's a more fundamental screwup in basic lapping or shingling


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## Windows on Wash

Tom Struble said:


> i know your situation was different,but usually i find the problem is not as ''exotic'' as absorption:no: usually it's a more fundamental screwup in basic lapping or shingling


+1

That is about 95% of the issues out there but I have seen several of Hammerlane's issues with brick sills above a bay window like that. 

Thanks for that post and video as well. Good content there.


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## Tom Struble

i agree, mind the gap


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## hammerlane

Tom Struble said:


> usually it's a more fundamental screwup in basic lapping or shingling


I agree with screwup in flashing /window installation.

I know that my brick chimney...made of same pink chanmpagne brick...as front of house has had a problem with efflorescence. 

Since the Siloxane product has been applied...those annoying white stains have not been back


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## concretemasonry

I have run a lot of water tests, but they are not conclusive unless the "veneer" or siding is removed.

Since over 60% of the windows installed on newer windows are not installed properly, I would bet on improperly installed windows in the entire house of the same crew did them all. - Flashing methods, care of installation, etc.

One other method is to find a moisture intrusion specialist or even a home inspector that has a professional moisture meter with the 4" or 5" long probes and poke a few 1/8" diameter holes on the inside. It is really not that intrusive and a pro can tell what is going on with a couple of probes since they know where to look. If you have fiberglass insulation you can get a good idea of the history also, since fiberglass does not dry out, but holds moisture for many, many years. Keep in mind that water usually migrates down, but can travel horizontally if it hits a header or plate. In mold/moisture investigation, you run across some strange installation caused problems.

The caulk is just a band-aid method to provide short tern protection.

Dick


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## kwikfishron

Tom Struble said:


> usually it's a more fundamental screwup


"Usually" probably is an understatement. :yes:


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## dengle

Well, I took off the base board trim and found this:









So I threw up the equivalent of the plastic tenting you find in ufo movies, helps respirator mask and cut open the drywall and found a lovely surprise after taking out the insulation which was soaked:


























The osb that is supposed to be between the insulation and stone facing was either totally eroded or softer than a wet tissue. I had a Contractor over to replace the damage. Will post update when I get more time. the short of it is I'm getting new windows.


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## concretemasonry

dengle -

You can expect similar moisture, wet insulaltion that has to be tossed and replaced with something better anyhwere near other windows that the same hack installed. Have a few 1/8" moisture measurement holes poked before you go anywhere with the man that is anxious to get started. I would suspect other windows have the same problem, but has not shown up on the interior yet.

Dick


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## HomeSealed

I agree with Dick's comments. This is a problem on your other openings as well whether or not it has shown up yet or not.


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## Windows on Wash

HomeSealed said:


> I agree with Dick's comments. This is a problem on your other openings as well whether or not it has shown up yet or not.


+1

All of those windows need to be properly inspected in conjunction with these repairs.

Odds on favorite is that if they did these wrong, the others might be wrong.


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## hammerlane

Good luck with this issue. Contact your homeowners insurance. Most policies have a mold/mildrew rider.


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## dengle

concretemasonry said:


> dengle -


I think from now on, just call me Tom Hanks as I'm living "The Money Pit"



concretemasonry said:


> You can expect similar moisture, wet insulaltion that has to be tossed and replaced with something better anyhwere near other windows that the same hack installed. Have a few 1/8" moisture measurement holes poked before you go anywhere with the man that is anxious to get started.


I am (or rather my wife) the one who is anxious to get started, admittedly. Very sound advice, however. With all of the lousy construction practices that i can see now that I've moved into the house (it's always that way it seems) I am considering everything done poorly/incorrectly.



concretemasonry said:


> I would suspect other windows have the same problem, but has not shown up on the interior yet.
> 
> Dick


i hope that these two windows are the only ones with this issue as they are the only ones installed with stone facing. We shall see. I'll either pick up a cheap tester myself or have the contractor do it. With all of the issues I run into here, having a tester on-hand would probably be a good idea. I saw a few posts on a home inspector forum that stated a few brands available on Ebay that are cheap and still read very close to the really expensive ones. 




hammerlane said:


> Good luck with this issue. Contact your homeowners insurance. Most policies have a mold/mildrew rider.


Many insurance companies have clauses in it to exclude anything caused by repeated water damage such as an improperly installed windows or some other construction defect. My policy is unfortunately one of those so I'm out of luck. 

Even if all or even some of the windows test positive for water, we don't have the funds to tackle them all at once other than a band-aid or two (i.e. caulk the #[email protected]! out of them and hope it stops it until we get enough to fix it). 

As to the continuation of what happened so far, The contractor came and planned on just opening the walls to verify the source of the water and fix whatever damage including bleaching/concrobium(sp?) the mold. 

Here's some pictures of the damage now that it's exposed more:
obvious signs of water which was dripping down the sides of the window framing and getting under the wood window sill. Wood looks sturdy until you look underneath. The two under studs are totally spongy which the window would have to be removed to replace properly. That's why we just opted to get new windows. The whole framing will have to be redone anyway as we're switching to a bay window. 







A bigger section of drywall removed. All areas under the entire window have rotted and the water was traveling along the osb flooring even further past. Ugh







Water hitting the top, most likely from the window upstairs as that had similar (but not as bad) water damage.







I think this is one of the faulty designs. The window is sitting on this plastic which then went in front of the osb which is good, but it ended halfway down with on means of the water escaping which i think is just a wee bit of a bad design? I gather that plastic sheathing should have continued down and or been tied into some system to allow the water to escape?








Unfortunately, it shrank a lot due to the auto reformatting, but what is that vertical double-piece of OSB called that the arrow is pointing to and what is it's purpose? Is it used to support anything or just to cover/seal something? That had a fair amount of damage. 








Anyway, that's why new windows are in the works. Well, that and the windows are horrible and it's a good opportunity to upgrade.


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## Tom Struble

rim board and important with your joist system

http://www.woodbywy.com/floors/f_TimberStrandLSL_rimboard.aspx


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## concretemasonry

dengle -

A good tester is not cheap plus you have to know how to use it and where to test. You need a $400-$500 (minimum) moisture meter with the extra long probes unless you just want to tear things apart to get an idea of what you are facing.

Since you did not post your location, what part of the world are you in and what is the climate?

Dick


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## dengle

I thought I posted initially but that was 5 pages ago  I'm in southeast Pa. About 30 minutes west of Philadelphia.


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## hammerlane

concretemasonry said:


> dengle -
> 
> A good tester is not cheap plus you have to know how to use it and where to test.


I would shelve the tester idea. 

Do this:
Slice probative square holes in the drywall. 
But only slice on 3 sides of the square(both sides and the bottom)
Slice on a 30 degree angle. This way you can "fold" the flap of drywall up, do your inspection, fold the piece of drywall back down if everything checks OK
Mudding over the repair is a lot easier.

Kind of like the attached photo but imagine that the top cut in the photo is still intact.


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## hammerlane

dengle: besides this portion of your home being stone veneer, is the rest of the home vinyl sided?

Hopefully your only problem windows are isolated to the two on the stone veneer. Let us know.


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## dengle

Correct. The only windows that seem to have issues are those front two which is the only area with stone facing. I did take the moulding off on another room under its window and no issues were seen. no signs of water on the subfloor or under in the basement. I'm putting wainscoting in under the one window so will cut open the drywall under the window before I finish that up for inspection. hopefully a different team installed the windows on the areas with siding.

The only other window that may be a concern is a small side window in the second floor bathroom where the external caulk separated and was just re caulked. that one scares me as the tub is a one piece surround.

-Dan


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## concretemasonry

The moisture probe testing is a standard method used because it is relatively non-intrusive. Just a dab of spackle for each 1/8" hole below every window investigated that may have been installed by the same people as the ones that show up.

If you unfortunate to have fiberglass insulation it hold the moisture and a good moisture probe will tell you in a minute or so for each window. This will tell you if the window was flashed and installed properly and show any lateral migration of water that has not shown up on the interior.


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## hammerlane

dengle said:


> The only windows that seem to have issues are those front two which is the only area with stone facing. I did take the moulding off on another room under its window and no issues were seen. no signs of water on the subfloor or under in the basement.


At least there is some good news. 

Question: when the leaking occurs at the windows at the stone veneer, does the leaking happen only during a wind driven rain against the stone veneer and windows?

Does the leaking intrude to the inside immediately as the rain strikes the outside of the house or does it take 20 or 30 minutes of wind driven rain for the leaking to happen?


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## framer52

i believe that you will have to take all of the stone veneer off. It appears you have a real problem and there may be damage to all of the wall.

i am sorry to tell you this as the wall is very attractive.

Now, how old is the house?

Does PA require builders to stand behind the house for 10 years? If it does, the builder is responsible for the sub par installation of the veneer.

I don't envy you, but it appears you have a mess. Most likely the problem being someone installed it who had no business installing the veneer.

The window is not the problem as I see it, poor instal techniques.....


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## framer52

By the way, those that are saying that older houses are built better, need to re think that. The reason in most cases we don't see this kind of damage is that older houses were built when little if any insulation was used.

The insulation traps the moisture in the walls today which causes a lot of the problems with the mold appearing. in older structures, the water would have dissipated before any damage to the wall would have been done.

I know all of this because I live in a house built in the 1880's and have seen all of this.

The problem today is that builders during the last 15 years were throwing up houses as fast as they could with little to no regard to how they were built.

Now as a person that works on older homes almost exclusively anymore, i am happy for the work. The problem is all of this could have been avoided in the first place with common sense and slowing down just a little with a little attention to some common sense details.


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## hammerlane

framer52 said:


> i believe that you will have to take all of the stone veneer off. It appears you have a real problem and there may be damage to all of the wall.


That may be the extreme. There is nothing special about that stone...meaning its not from an exclusive quarry in the South of France or something. SO a mason may be able to remove stone to expose the entire perimeter of the window and either properly flash the existing window or just install new windows and properly flash the new one.

But like Framer52 said depends on how much damage you discover to the sheathing when you remove interior drywall.


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## dengle

hammerlane said:


> At least there is some good news.
> 
> Question: when the leaking occurs at the windows at the stone veneer, does the leaking happen only during a wind driven rain against the stone veneer and windows?
> 
> Does the leaking intrude to the inside immediately as the rain strikes the outside of the house or does it take 20 or 30 minutes of wind driven rain for the leaking to happen?


It takes a while, depending on how hard and heavy the rain is hitting the front. The only visible water I would see was dripping from the top corner and center of the 1st floor window. The second floor had no visible signs as most of the water would drip down to the first floor. Unless it was a torrential downpour where the gutters were overwhelmed, I would hardly ever see anything in the basement. But there was more insulation down there probably acting as a sponge as well. It hasn't rained hard enough lately for me to verify infiltration sources.



framer52 said:


> Now, how old is the house?
> 
> Does PA require builders to stand behind the house for 10 years? If it does, the builder is responsible for the sub par installation of the veneer.
> 
> I don't envy you, but it appears you have a mess. Most likely the problem being someone installed it who had no business installing the veneer.
> 
> The window is not the problem as I see it, poor instal techniques.....


it is approaching 10 years in May, maybe a little later. The prior owners gave us a picture of the building site dated 04/2002 where the ground wasn't broken yet. I can see if I can get the contract from them. I am the 2nd owner, if that matters. I am unsure about the statute of limitations, but I'm researching it! If anyone knows, that would be very helpful.

We ripped off all of the drywall on the 1st floor. Only areas immediately surrounding the window were affected or remotely wet. I believe a lot of it has to do with that plastic that wasn't terminated properly under the window. 
I'll be doing some further removal of drywall on the 2nd floor to verify my theory.




hammerlane said:


> framer52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i believe that you will have to take all of the stone veneer off. It appears you have a real problem and there may be damage to all of the wall.
> 
> i am sorry to tell you this as the wall is very attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> That me be the extreme. There is nothing special about that stone...meaning its not from an exclusive quarry in the South of France or something. SO a mason may be able to remove stone to expose the entire perimeter of the window and either properly flash the existing window or just install new windows and properly flash the new one.
> 
> But like Framer52 said depends on how much damage you discover to the sheathing when you remove interior drywall.
Click to expand...

I agree. If I saw extensive damage all throughout that wall, I'd be more likely to agree that it'd all have to come down. Hopefully when I take off the rest of the 2nd floor drywall, I'll be "pleasantly" surprised.


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## framer52

I hope so, but the reason I am advocating removal is a drainage plain should be behind the stone. the only way to address this is to remove all of the veneer. 

Sorry


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## dengle

framer52 said:


> Does PA require builders to stand behind the house for 10 years? If it does, the builder is responsible for the sub par installation of the veneer.
> 
> I don't envy you, but it appears you have a mess. Most likely the problem being someone installed it who had no business installing the veneer.
> 
> The window is not the problem as I see it, poor instal techniques.....


I haven't found the actual statute yet, but found this snippet on



http://www.wolfbaldwin.com/attorneys_lawyers/articles.asp?ArticleID=30 said:


> Buildings and construction projects generally last a long time and defects might not be readily apparent for many years. *There is a special twelve-year limitation period* which applies to any person performing or furnishing the design, planning, supervision or observation of construction or construction of any improvement to real property. The same time limit applies to landscape architects.
> 
> It is important to remember that the issue of how much time there is to bring a claim also has an effect upon the person against whom the claim is made. Generally, the statute of limitations is a strong defense to claims made beyond the appropriate time; however, the defense is not self-executing. If an apparently time-barred claim is made against you, your statute of limitations defense will be waived unless you act to raise it. Of course, it is wise to consult your attorney in all matters of litigation, whether prosecuting a claim or defending one, so you can be sure that all of your rights are protected.


I may have to give a lawyer a call. They can fix the damage from missing step flashing between my chase chimney and roof as well.


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