# Never compromise on safety



## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

The owners across the street are doing a major remodel of the house which includes laying new vinyl plank flooring.

They have a small DeWalt bench-top table saw with no blade guard on the ground of the front stoop where they are cutting and ripping pieces.

I have been working in my garage, watched this guy cut planks a couple of times and cringe every time he cuts a piece.

He bends over the saw from a standing position (as opposed to stooping) to make the cuts. If he loses his balance or the piece suddenly gives way, he has a good chance of falling into the spinning blade.

It is these lapses in judgement that land people in the ER. 

For well over 40 years I have been using power tools and thank God have never had a mishap. From the time Dad taught me to use a power tool he has been adamant about using it properly and safely. To this day I still remember and adhere to those lessons.

God forbid he does get injured he will probably try to sue DeWalt for his own stupidity even though he is one violating every safety instruction DeWalt includes in the owner's manual.

This bonehead across the street is a reminder of why we should never compromise on safety or let our judgement lapse.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

I would feel pretty bad if I saw that and the neighbor ended up injured. Stop by, shoot the breeze, and offer up the correct ways of using the saw without sounding high and mighty.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Absolutely. I tell my guys to wear safety glasses and hearing protection, plus N95 if they want to for the dust. I also tell them to NEVER wear gloves when cutting on the table saw. Missed judgment as to your finger and the glove can draw the glove AND your finger into the blade. I have a plethora of push devices that keep their hands well above the action, but one can never be too careful. I even tape ICC warning tape around the blade and in the cut area on the slide saw just for visual acuity. Which reminds me, I need to buy more.

I'm still having to remind my new helper to keep his eye on the wood and the fence, and keep his hands away from the blade. The blade will do the job on its own.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

sixeightten said:


> I would feel pretty bad if I saw that and the neighbor ended up injured. Stop by, shoot the breeze, and offer up the correct ways of using the saw without sounding high and mighty.


I may do that. These days one has to be careful when offering advice no matter how helpful.


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## sixeightten (Feb 10, 2009)

Drachenfire said:


> I may do that. These days one has to be careful when offering advice no matter how helpful.


Maybe take a couple saw horses over and construct a quicky top.


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## ktownskier (Aug 22, 2018)

To bad they don't teach shop in school anymore. Otherwise the guy would find out why they call most shop teachers lefty, or one thumb.

Or in my case, why I can only give 1 3/4 thumbs up.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

sixeightten said:


> Maybe take a couple saw horses over and construct a quicky top.


I would, but I just got my pair of TOUGHBUILT TB-C700s and are currently using them for a project I am building for my wife. (The pair I had before I was holding for a buddy and returned them to him last week)


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm sure you got it covered.

But if you just want to give him some DIY saw horse plans.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/carpentry/sawhorse-plans/

And for you to look at.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/?s=horses


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

ron45 said:


> I'm sure you got it covered.
> 
> But if you just want to give him some DIY saw horse plans.
> 
> ...


I will pass the plans on to him and hope for the best. Sadly you sometimes cannot save people from themselves.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

In general, don't waist your breath. He ain't gonna listen because he already has it all knowed up. The only thing positive from an attempt, it will probably make you feel better if he should need corrective surgery so his kids can recognize him.


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## LanterDan (Jul 3, 2006)

Drachenfire said:


> God forbid he does get injured he will probably try to sue DeWalt for his own stupidity even though he is one violating every safety instruction DeWalt includes in the owner's manual.


This happened with Ryobi (accident 2005, judgement 2010). Hardwood flooring installer injured three finger + thumb. $1.5 million award, with apparently much of the trail hinging on the saw's lack "of flesh sensing technology"(i.e. SawStop). We can debate the merits of SawStop another day, but the operator was cutting freehand with the blade guard/splitter removed. The above article doesn't mention it, but I believe at the time I read that the operator was trying to force the cut through a bind and bending over the saw on the ground. I don't understand how you can literally do everything wrong and then sue the saw manufacturer.


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## LanterDan (Jul 3, 2006)

ktownskier said:


> To bad they don't teach shop in school anymore. Otherwise the guy would find out why they call most shop teachers lefty, or one thumb.


I've had a few shop classes in my day and known several other shop teachers as well and never knew anyone missing any digits. I did know one with scar on his hand from a table saw kickback where he was clearly lucky. I also had a physics professor who cut off a finger in a Bridgeport, but was fortunate to have to successfully reattached (experiments don't make themselves, I spent a large fraction of grad school in the shop).

While it is important to remember potential for injury machinery can present, I also worry that comments like "most shop teachers ..." promote a fatalistic attitude that accidents just happen in certain fields rather than are things that can be protected against with proper training and procedure.

But I do absolutely agree that it is a great loss and shame that are so few shop classes offered these days. Not only for the loss of skills that used to taught, but also for the more general introduction of how to do hazardous work safely that may come up in more specialized fields.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

Honest talk guys....do you run/use a blade guard........

(Guess you can tell that I don't)


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## LanterDan (Jul 3, 2006)

At work: Always, no exceptions. Consequences of getting caught too high.

At home: Guard: Usually. Removed for narrow rips, non-through cuts, and some sleds and jigs (some of which have there own guards). Riving knife nearly always. I also don't let the lack of a guard stop of if I'm say helping a friend at there house or otherwise off site. 

High quality blade guards make a world of difference in terms of not-interfering with work. Most the guard that come with most (at least cheaper) saws are junk, although newer guards do seem to be better than older ones. I would like to upgrade an overhead arm mounted guard rather than one on the splitter which allow me leave the guard on more more cuts and improve dust collection, but I hope to upgrade my shop and then my saw, so I'm holding off. 

This is from the perspective of someone who is mainly a wood worker. I'm sure my compliance would be lower if I was a contractor working at remote sites with portable equipment. So, yes, I am a bit of a hypocrite. But I also wouldn't sue the manufacturer if I hurt myself after removing a guard.


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## ron45 (Feb 25, 2014)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Honest talk guys....do you run/use a blade guard........
> 
> (Guess you can tell that I don't)


But do you get careless or do you respect the danger.?


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

LanterDan said:


> This happened with Ryobi (accident 2005, judgement 2010). Hardwood flooring installer injured three finger + thumb. $1.5 million award, with apparently much of the trail hinging on the saw's lack "of flesh sensing technology"(i.e. SawStop). We can debate the merits of SawStop another day, but the operator was cutting freehand with the blade guard/splitter removed. The above article doesn't mention it, but I believe at the time I read that the operator was trying to force the cut through a bind and bending over the saw on the ground. I don't understand how you can literally do everything wrong and then sue the saw manufacturer.



He only won his case because he sued in Massachusetts. Apparently, Massachusetts has this quirky and IMO ridiculous law that says in essence, if a technology exists that could have prevented the injury, the jury has to find for the plaintiff. 



This is where Stephen Gass, owner of SawStop, gets involved. He hired himself out to the plaintiff as an expert witness (something he often does) and testified that had the Ryobi been fitted with his technology it would have prevented the injury.



Had the plaintiff sued in any other state, it is highly unlikely he would have won his suit even with Gass's testimony.




MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Honest talk guys....do you run/use a blade guard........
> 
> (Guess you can tell that I don't)



I normally have the blade guard installed because the splitter is incorporated into it as are the pawls. 












I remove it when using the crosscut sled or cutting thin strips that could jam between the pawl and splitter.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

The blade guard and "anti-kickback" teeth were the first thing to go when I got my table saw; 25 years and countless projects later, I still have all my fingers. Of course, I "respect the danger" - I like my fingers where they're at. 



Growing up, I used my dad's radial arm saw, and survived that without injury as well, which was far more of a challenge, especially for rip cuts.


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## geenowalker (Aug 19, 2013)

Can you loan him a sliding compound saw and state that it gives cleaner cuts? A little BS never hurt anyone in an effort not to hurt anyone. My saw has a laser which makes it almost idiot proof (not including myself).


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## loumickie (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm old enough to have been able to take woodshop in junior high school. My shop teacher was actually missing part of a finger, so that lesson along with all the safety lessons stuck with me. 



I use an overarm blade guard on my tablesaw, and have lots of push sticks handy.


Go and talk to the neighbor, you never know, maybe nobody ever taught him the right way. If he blows you off, so be it.


Lou


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## geenowalker (Aug 19, 2013)

loumickie said:


> I'm old enough to have been able to take woodshop in junior high school. My shop teacher was actually missing part of a finger, so that lesson along with all the safety lessons stuck with me.
> 
> I use an overarm blade guard on my tablesaw, and have lots of push sticks handy.
> 
> ...


I see contractors all the time without the blade guards (flooring guys, etc). It doesn't excuse them from using as well, but wondering if hes figuring...if they do it...


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

The issue has become moot. It appears they have finished the flooring. 

My retired neighbor, who spends a good deal of time sitting in front of his house watching the going on in the neighborhood did not report any ambulances or unusual goings on at house so I guess the guy kept all his digits... this time.


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## Nik333 (Mar 1, 2015)

loumickie said:


> Go and talk to the neighbor, you never know, maybe nobody ever taught him the right way. If he blows you off, so be it.
> 
> 
> Lou



I like to call it "having broad shoulders" , although, figurative for me, it involves caring enough to say something in the most diplomatic way & then the ability to take insult if needed.


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## TheEplumber (Jul 20, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Honest talk guys....do you run/use a blade guard........
> 
> 
> 
> (Guess you can tell that I don't)


I don't either on a table saw. I do do on my skillsaw though. I've seen that blade race up a leg or run across the deck and over a foot.

I've also watched professional flooring guys rip and crosscut engineered planks without guards or fences. The saw was set up on the garage floor. I tried to talk to them about the stupidity of the situation but they couldn't hear me over the blasting radio.....

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

I have found the guard and riving knives and pawls interfere with a good push dog to keep the cut going through the blade. Like the others, I respect the dangers, and cut safely.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> I have found the guard and riving knives and pawls interfere with a good push dog to keep the cut going through the blade.



That's been my experience, too. They also interfere with my ability to see what I'm cutting, and my ability to adjust the direction of the cut when I'm trying to follow a marked cut line for freehand cuts.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Microjig makes a splitter system which is a good alternative to a riving knifes. They have ones for full or thin kerf blades.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> They also interfere with my ability to see what I'm cutting


Which brings me to another tool. The left handed circle saw. I bought a Porter Cable 345 (i believe) many years ago because a client ran over my cheap Craftsman and gave me $100 to replace it  Use a left hand saw and you'll never go back to a standard circle saw. You are looking at your blade and line on YOUR side of the saw and without having to crane over and look on the opposite side.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

chandler48 said:


> Which brings me to another tool. The left handed circle saw. I bought a Porter Cable 345 (i believe) many years ago because a client ran over my cheap Craftsman and gave me $100 to replace it  Use a left hand saw and you'll never go back to a standard circle saw. You are looking at your blade and line on YOUR side of the saw and without having to crane over and look on the opposite side.


Larry.....I'm basically retired now, so I'm not really purchasing tools that I would love but basically can do with out.

I have a good Dewalt that won't quit. and a bunch of others I call roofing saws....(use wherever and don't worry if it falls off the roof.)

But Gosh.... I wish I had first bought a lefthander.......\

Yes. your setup is a little different....but so much easier to guide.

I'm not sure why they never caught on and were basically a specialty tool.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> Use a left hand saw and you'll never go back to a standard circle saw. You are looking at your blade and line on YOUR side of the saw and without having to crane over and look on the opposite side.



Lucky for me, I'm a lefty, so I get that advantage with a regular circular saw, although I rarely freehand with a circular saw, anyway. I usually use a guide. (I also use either hand, so it wouldn't matter anyway)


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

Like my Makita cordless circular. Love it.




chandler48 said:


> Which brings me to another tool. The left handed circle saw. I bought a Porter Cable 345 (i believe) many years ago because a client ran over my cheap Craftsman and gave me $100 to replace it  Use a left hand saw and you'll never go back to a standard circle saw. You are looking at your blade and line on YOUR side of the saw and without having to crane over and look on the opposite side.


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## raylo32 (Nov 25, 2006)

I was in the navy way back in the day and was electrical officer for awhile. We had a great E-div senior chief who stressed safety, especially when it came to working on energized equipment which included 450v panels and such. At times it seemed ridiculous... you needed 2 guys no matter how simple the task, one wearing gloves safety glasses, etc. to do the work standing on a thick rubber mat and one standing nearby holding a rope tied around the worker's waist ready to pull him out and/or to de-energize the circuit if necessary.

Then one day this little guy was working in a tight spot on one of those high voltage panels and shorted something out which threw out a huge fireball. He was mostly OK due to all the precautions but his face looked like he had spent a couple hours in a tanning booth... and he had bright white rings around his eyes from the safety glasses.

Later we were in a shipyard for overhaul and the workers there just didn't have the same training or concerns. We had to watch them like a hawk to avoid having them do something really stupid on our boat. And not just electrical... lifting, fire protection, asbestos, etc, etc. Just a totally different safety culture.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

I look at a line when using the band saw, sabre saw, and to start a cut with a miter gauge but that's about it. All other cuts i use a guide and watch the shoe to be certain it follows the straight edge. Makes for factory straight accurate cuts.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

raylo32 said:


> I was in the navy way back in the day and was electrical officer for awhile. We had a great E-div senior chief who stressed safety, especially when it came to working on energized equipment which included 450v panels and such. At times it seemed ridiculous... you needed 2 guys no matter how simple the task, one wearing gloves safety glasses, etc. to do the work standing on a thick rubber mat and one standing nearby holding a rope tied around the worker's waist ready to pull him out and/or to de-energize the circuit if necessary.
> 
> Then one day this little guy was working in a tight spot on one of those high voltage panels and shorted something out which threw out a huge fireball. He was mostly OK due to all the precautions but his face looked like he had spent a couple hours in a tanning booth... and he had bright white rings around his eyes from the safety glasses.
> 
> Later we were in a shipyard for overhaul and the workers there just didn't have the same training or concerns. We had to watch them like a hawk to avoid having them do something really stupid on our boat. And not just electrical... lifting, fire protection, asbestos, etc, etc. Just a totally different safety culture.


You reminded me of when I had my electrical panel replaced. 

The electrician did an excellent job of putting in and wiring the new panel.

When he went to reconnect the mains, which were hot, in the meter base, I told him to wait.

I went back into the garage and came out with a 4-ft 2x4. I stood off to one side and told him, "Okay, go ahead". 

He clearly understood what I was doing. He nodded at me with a smile and said, "Thank you man" and proceeded with the re-connect. Fortunately I did not need to use that 2x4.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah, most cordless saws are left hand saws. The only other option except the PC, are worm gear saws, and they are heavy.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

I can see the advantage to a left-hand saw. However, I have been using a right-hand since the day my dad taught me to use one (more than 40 years ago) and have no problem working with it.

Since we are on the topic of safety, anyone else cringe at the violations on YouTube videos?

I have seen all sorts, missing ear/eye protection, lack of blade guards, wearing slippers or even barefoot in the work area and loose clothing around moving blades.

IMO, if you are doing a video, you should be demonstrating safe practices. A lot of people new to DIY turn to these videos for instruction. They may think the unsafe practices they are seeing are acceptable ways to do things.

I have to give it to Norm Abram, he began every show with the same instruction;

_Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this, there is no more important safety rule than to wear these: safety glasses!_

He himself practiced safe tool use. On those occasions when he used a table saw without the guard in place, it was made clear this was solely for the purpose of clarity.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

One You Tube procedure I find horribly wrong is using a t-bar in a slot and having the work against the fence. Kick back city. Use one or the other, but not both.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

chandler48 said:


> One You Tube procedure I find horribly wrong is using a t-bar in a slot and having the work against the fence. Kick back city. Use one or the other, but not both.


That is clearly a person that never learned safe tool use.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

chandler48 said:


> One You Tube procedure I find horribly wrong is using a t-bar in a slot and having the work against the fence. Kick back city. Use one or the other, but not both.


Yes...That is a pretty common mistake of new users....untill the get that kickback in the chest (hopefully not the face).

Take the time to put a small spacer block on the fence well behind the blade if you are doing repetitive cuts.

One mistake that I have made more than once (I know stupid me) is having a power tool (grinder and belt sander in my case) on lock when the cord has come out of the wall....and I put it down and reach over to plug it in......boy that beltsander is REALLY FAST....and that grinder will cut right into that granite......DUH


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> One mistake that I have made more than once (I know stupid me) is having a power tool (grinder and belt sander in my case) on lock when the cord has come out of the wall....and I put it down and reach over to plug it in......boy that beltsander is REALLY FAST....and that grinder will cut right into that granite......DUH


The day you discover a lock on a portable tool should be* ILLEGAL* is the day you're under a case tractor on your back with a drill motor like this pictured drilling out a dutchman with a 5/8" bit and the bit hangs. Due to the construction it was virtually impossible to pull the trigger without the lock button being pushed in by the index finger. I'm probably lucky to be alive.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

> boy that beltsander is REALLY FAST


BTDT.....but only once


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 11, 2010)

SeniorSitizen said:


> The day you discover a lock on a portable tool should be* ILLEGAL* is the day you're under a case tractor on your back with a drill motor like this pictured drilling out a dutchman with a 5/8" bit and the bit hangs. Due to the construction it was virtually impossible to pull the trigger without the lock button being pushed in by the index finger. I'm probably lucky to be alive.


Senior...That is another significant accident waiting to happen....that big boy with a gear down....caught in clothing or just caught between it and anything else.... (I'v probably jammed my fingers a few times with that holehog and a close stud.


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## HotRodx10 (Aug 24, 2017)

> ...boy that beltsander is REALLY FAST.



I remember they were really hard to ride across the shop in high school woodshop class...only a couple of the guys could successfully do it.


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## Drachenfire (Jun 6, 2017)

Critical Woodworking Safety Tips

These should be prominently displayed in multiple areas of your shop or garage. I am sure there are other rules but these can function as a foundation for safe shop safety.

*1. Do a safety briefing with yourself.*
Take a minute and think about what you’re going to be building.

If you have woodworking plans, take a minute and read through the whole set of plans.

What tools are you going to use and what are the hazards you need to account for?
What techniques will you be using for a particular project?
Do you have your cell phone on hand if you have an emergency?
Is another person around you can call upon if you need assistance?

*2. Wear the right PPE for the job.*
Safety glasses (ANSI approved), face shield, dust mask, ear plugs, protective gloves. You may not need all of these for every job, but don’t forget to use them when needed.

Some hazards can affect you short term. But things like dust or loud sounds could affect you long term.

PPE is your first layer of protection if something gets out of control. Suck up your pride and put these things on. You may have been a woodworker for 20+ years, but you never know when something is going to go wrong.

*3. Know your skill level and limitations.*
Don’t do anything you’re not comfortable doing. Get training if needed, and please read the instruction manuals that come with your tools. Make sure you follow the safety recommendations in those manuals. (I can hear Norm now)

Remember, there are always different ways to perform a woodworking task. If you’re more comfortable cutting something with a hand tool, go for it. Not everything has to be done with power tools.

There’s a wonderful woodworking community out there, so join a forum and ask questions. Don’t forget about local woodworking clubs you could join or visit.

Share your skills and safety tips with others in the community.

*4. Keep your tools in good working order.*
Inspect tool handles. Sharpen dull tools. Sharp tools are much safer than dull tools. Replace blades when needed. Again, your tool’s instruction manual should give recommendations if periodic maintenance is needed.

Use good tools. No, you don’t have to buy high-end tools, but don’t buy cheap, crappy stuff either.

Also, don’t make modifications to tools that might compromise your safety. So leave guards and other safety features in place.

Practice good housekeeping in your shop. Try to keep it clean and organized. Eliminate those trip hazards or potential fire hazards.

*5. Maintain positive control of the work-piece and your tools.*
Keep those hands and fingers away from blades or possible pinch points. Don’t let boards kick back on you or drag a finger/hand into the blade. Make sure your hands don’t slip into the blade. Use push sticks with your table-saw. Use clamps when appropriate.

With your drill press, make sure the wood is secure so if that bit binds in the wood, you can minimize problems.

If you’re doing lathe work, ask yourself — should I be turning between centers? Or do I have a good chuck that will securely hold the piece I’m turning?

*6. Keep a first aid kit and fire extinguisher handy.*
If you’re careful, you should be able to recognize and control most hazards in your shop. But sometimes things are going to go south. Having an effective quality first aid kit is very important and might just save your life.., or an appendage. Do not forget to check expiration dates on things like antiseptics, antibiotic cremes and burn ointments. 

Get familiar with you fire extinguisher and keep it in one place prominently identified. Make sure it is rated at least ABC and charged correctly. Fire extinguishers should be used to put out small blazes. If you have a large fire, it’s best to exit the location. Know your exit points.


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