# help me solve this mystery please



## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Woman or man, or consultant or roofer, that is one of the most precise and articulate descriptions of symptoms and causation analysis I have ever read.

Too long, but thats okay. I liked the thoroughness of the details.

My first thought, is that in 1998, something else occured in the back side of the roofing portion of the job. 

You stated that prior to 1998, you could see "Daylight" from the eaves. I will presume you meant from a continuous soffit intake strip vent, since you were so precise about everything else. 

After 1998, you saw no daylight.

Badda Boom, Badda Bing! Problems begin to occur!

Remember that point now.

You also stated that besides all of the darkened insulation kraft paper and carpet staining, that the actual rafter insulation began to sag and was saturated with moisture.

Also, a "tar" like emission from the lumber or through it.

Firstly, when you said it was not water, but condensation, you are wrong.

Condensation is water. No need to explain any further. Think about it. It is just not a lorge volume of "flowing" water, yet it is moisture just the same, only in a continuous vapor form which collects prevalently enough to condensate until the products associated with this contact show continuing signs of saturation.

I believe that the most significant portion of the attic ventilation system was compromised at that time. Either the actual fresh air intake vents were clogged up and did not allow fresh air in to create a flushing like flowage through the attic cavity, which would proceed to the exhaust ventilation system nad carry out the humid vapor accumulation before it had the opportunity to condense.

Insulation tightly adhered to the roof decking is a big time No-No. There should have been in place an insulation baffle vent chute, sometimes called a baffle vent and sometimes called a proper vent and sometimes called a rafter-mate. It is a 4 ft x either 24" or 12" cardboard or styrofoam air diversion product and very cheap to buy. Think of a styrofoam egg carton, and make that into the width of the rafter spacing and continue extending each 4 foot piece from the bottom by the eave/soffit fresh air intake vents, (WHICH MUST BE 100% CONTINUOUS), and they go all of the way up to the ridge of the roof. 

These baffle vents leave about a 1 1/2" gap for air to be channeled into to flow unobstructed from the soffit vents to the "RIDGE" vent, which also should be 100 % continuous.

The insulation sagged when the weight of the vapor condensated due to not flowing outward to the exhaust vent andthen continually saturated the insulation material until the fasteners just could not hold it in place any longer.

Further exasperating the situation, the PAV, powered attic ventilator broke down in the early 90's, and at least may have moderately assisted in reducing the RH, relative humidity content before it could condense.

The tar like substance most likely is sap being "boiled" out of the wood framing members. The continuously super-heated structure. That plus the growth of a black moldy environment may make it look like tar, but it actually is sap.

I recommend the following:

1) Remove and replace All insulation.

2) Replace 100 % of all decking using a minimum of 1/2" 4-ply exterior grade CDX plywood sheathing. DEFINITELY NOT OSB OR PARTICLE BOARD!!!!!

3) Install 100 % continuous soffit intake vents. If that is not feasable, have the roofing contractor install a taperewd coroplast product called "Smart Vent" manufactured by DCI Products Inc. on the bottom sheet of new plywood across the entire length of both sides of the house to create a intake flowage of 9 square inches per lineal foot. The plywood get a slot cut into it from the 6" to 7" point above the bottom edge of the new plywood sheathing, creating a location for air to flow unimpeded to the under side of the decking all the way to the top of the roof through the insulation baffle vent chutes. Seal off any other wall or gable vents to prevent short-circuiting of the ventilation flowage.

4) Use Grace Ice and Water shield over at least the bottom 3 feet of the new plywood decking, which will also cover up the 12" Smart Vent. Under the bottom edge of the Smart Vent, install a new Gutter Apron Drip Edge flashing.

5) Cover the remainder of the house in either a 30# felt paper or a synthetic felt such as Tri-Flex.

6) At night time if the felt paper is to be left unshingled, cover it up with tarps so it does not absorb any ambient humidity or morning dew condenstion, which would then promote wrinkling of the felt after it gets dry and the wrinkles would telegraph through the newly installed shingles.

7) Use a good quality medium to heavy-weight architectural style shingle. My "Preference" is the Tamko Heritage Series.

8) Install the Shingle Vent II ridge vent 100 % continuously along the entire ridge of the home. Only this brand and design. NO MUSHROOM STATIC AIR VENTS OR/AND POWERED ATTIC VENTILATORS!!!!!

Install new insulation after the roof job, per the R-value for your area, making sure that it does not impede and close off either the intake or the exhaust vent slots.

Pay your contractor on time.

Recieve your written warranty.

Sleep assured the job is done correctly, if you followed my recommendations. If you omit anything from what I have instructed, you WILL have problems all over again and I will not take this much time to be so descriptive the next time around.

Good Luck, and if you need any further one to one advise, you may contact me via my Roofing Blog @ http://rightwayroofing.wordpress.com/ or you can e-mail me the contract to review the specifications to [email protected] 

I would ensure, that before the roof work is undertaken, that you make sure the proper specifications are being adhered to, other wise you may be seeing your roofer again with a mold claim, which would not be fair to him.

Ed

P.S. I will be gone until Monday evening or "Tuesday after Memorial day.


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## ron schenker (Jan 15, 2006)

Ed, that's one of the most precise and articulate descriptions of an answer for woman or man, or consultant or roofer that I have ever read:thumbsup: Actually I didn't read it all...the question and answer were too long for my low attention span brain. Keep up the good work


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Ron,

I agree. I first starting reading her question earlier this morning, and soon realized that it was going to require some focused attention to be able to respond adequately.

I just hope that after I typed in a 1/2 hour reply, that she comes back and checks it out.

Yes, my reply is too long as well, but she had many years of observations requiring disection and analysis. 

Ed


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## ron schenker (Jan 15, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Ron,
> 
> I agree. I first starting reading her question earlier this morning, and soon realized that it was going to require some focused attention to be able to respond adequately.
> 
> ...


You're the man Ed:thumbsup: BTW the last time I did any disection and analysis was in my biology class in "68


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## lindaberrien (May 24, 2007)

*disection and analysis*

I just had to reply to a few comments such as hope she checks back after 1/2 hour answer, too long, and the last time I did disection and analysis was in Biology class because they struck so close to home.

"She" checked back about every five minutes since "she" posted the question. Because she feels like she is drowning in a sea of people telling her what to do and has had to try to determine what was right or wrong. Until I find out what went wrong with the roof, there is little sense in having a new one put on.

"too long"...yes, yes, yes I totally agree. I am so tired of telling the story over and over year after year to deaf people who simply can't understand the basic fact that:
If before a certain date something was not there and after a certain date it was there....then find what happened on that date and work from there to understand it. This is especially relevant if there are ways to prove the absence or presence of that "something" .

I attempted to be as precise as possible in the hopes of reaching someone like Ed the roofer. I think he should have his own icon. What a joy to find someone who is so passionate about his occupation that he practices it and still researches ways to do it better; rather than getting stuck on one idea and refusing to let it go. Ii don't know where he lives but if it was anywhere close to here, he would do my roof in a second.

"disection and analysis....Biology class." Had to laugh at that one. I happen to be a Biology teacher who was born with the trail of disecting and analyzing everything. For me it probably rests in the fear of making a mistake. I am a real PIA about this and am sure I bore everyone to death with it. 

In this matter of roofing, I am on the verge of just turning the whole thing over to a contractor who sounds like he knows it all and has that certain authoritarian attitude even though that kind has been my nemesis in the past. I keep forgetting they can read me as well as I think I can read them. I should underline the word "think" when it applies to me. I wish there were a spell checker on this thing.

Ed the roofer is my hero and I thank him for taking the time to reply with in depth answers.


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## ron schenker (Jan 15, 2006)

He's now my new hero too...along with Ron the Plumber:thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

LindaBerrien,

Linda, the providing of a proper analysis is only possible with the correct information supplied in the first place, which you properly did to the best of your abilities, which helped out the diagnosis immensley.

There is a spell checker here if you choose to use it. It is the abc with the check mark at the top right corner of this reply box. I don't bother with it, because even with minor errors, the point still gets across.

I am located in the NW suburbs of Chicago, and do all of my work within a 15 minute drive from my shop. If you do check out my blog site, it is relatively new, but contains some other good information recently added regarding ventilation questions.

I used to travel over 7 states to do special single ply membranes, architectural sheet metal work, and clay and concrete tile roofs on the most popular theme restaurant chains in the country. Now, I choose to do all of my work near my home instead of living out of a hotel.

So, if you live anywhere in the midwest, you probably live near a Hardees, Romanos Macaroni Grill, Chilis, Taco Bell, KFC, Wendys, TGIF, Burger King, etc... which I did the roof on. My favorite out of town job was a Macaroni Grill in Livonia, Michigan back in the winter of 1993.

I am presuming you are taking the advice I suggested, and therefor, if you would like, I would be willing to review any contract specifications someone has offered to provide for you.

Ed


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## lindaberrien (May 24, 2007)

*from lindaberrien re rooffffffffffff*

I just got your message. Did you get the message I sent you at the other url you gave me. It was called Eddie's Dad. If not please check it. I will send another via that address when I have a second to do so and explain the situation.
Re: the roof. Have spoken to several contractors. The proposal is downstairs and I'll try to tell you the high points. What I do remember is that he used the sheathing you don't like (OSB?) and said that was the only kind he used. He also said to find out the kind of shingles used on all the houses here because he couldn't find it. I don't want a replacement of the shingles I had last time. They were cheap and not algae resistant. Even though I am having to pay for the roof, I have to match what the Board says, the contractor says he can't so there is one more problem. The mold removal isn't quite finished and that has been a real ordeal. I had to rent a storage trailer and move everything from the attic to the trailer. Now wait for the mold remediation to finish, then the roofer, then repack everything into new boxes from the storage trailer plus care for my Mom. It's all work only I can do but I'll hire someone for the carrying.
The roofer said that the sheathing and roof can be replaced in one or two days because he has a crew of 14 men.

Is this going to make a huge mess on the second floor and do they have to even enter the second floor at all?

My parents used to live in Willamette. Is that near you? We are in NC.

I am going to try to get my digital camera hooked up to my computer to see if I can get some pictures of the corner of the house that I told you about. After looking at it again today, I can't help wondering if that wasn't where it all began.

The mold didn't develop until this year. It may have started but it exploded this spring, Most of it was on the covering of the insulation, the side with the paper.
If there was condensation, wouldn't the mold have been on the inside of the plywood as well? That would be a perfect place for it to grow but there was none there,
Please let me know if that other message I sent got through.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I will,under zero circumstances, use OSB board, unless the homeowner signs a disclaimer regarding all of the problems associated with its usage and swelling. 

The only reason I see contractors using it, is because it is between $ 5.00 to $ 10.00 per sheet cheaper than 1/2" 4-ply exterior grade CDX. 

I have many resource technical papers written directly from the manufacturers themselves and the plywood vs osb type testing organizations, which verify why OSB is a less desireable product in every comparible testing result available.

I will not get back to my office computer until Tuesday, as I dont open up my e-mails from other sources. I like it to be archived on my hard drive.

Willmette is only about 1/2 hour away.

14 men. I would only want trained experienced guys desiring to do a thorough and quality job, not just a fast one composed of minimum wage grunts. Too many things get overlooked and don't surface as a problem until later when every one is bumping into each other.

I don't know if you checked out my Blog site or are referring to my e-mail address, but I can not check either until I get back from my weekend trip to visit family.

Ed


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## AaronB (Jan 29, 2005)

Ed, that was magnificent. I couldnt have said it better myself, although I have tried.

Linda, if you follow ed's advice ye shall be OK.


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## lindaberrien (May 24, 2007)

*the mystery deepens*

Ed,
There is something about this whole roof situation that makes no sense at all. The insulation is gone and in the dump. But I haven


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## lindaberrien (May 24, 2007)

*second try*

Ed,
There is something about this whole roof situation that makes no sense at all. The insulation is gone and in the dump. But I haven’t given the ok yet for a new roof. Here’s a question for you.

Suppose someone wanted to sell a house but they knew the sheathing was warped and in bad shape. Suppose they found some insulation on sale and hired some day labors to tack it up. What better way to cover a defect?

The insulation was about ten inches thick. Much to heavy. There was no ridge vent, no breathing space, nothing. It was tacked right to the joists (is that the right word) (the beams that hold the roof up) In other words the installation was totally wrong, and done with the wrong insulation. But unless someone walked in and pulled some down, there would not be any way to know anything at all about the kind of insulation or how it was put up. The one thing everyone agreed on was the fact that no one could understand how, why, or who would have done such a terrible job in the way the insulation was put up.

In my letter to you I drew a rough diagram and will try to do so here.


I couldn't put in the diagram. But picture you are looking at the side of the house and the house is like a square and the roof is a triangle. 
The floor of the second story would be the top of the square and the base of the triangle. Mentally draw a line that begins in the center of the floor line and goes up to the peak of the roof.


There is a separation between the roof and the side of the house that extends at least 2/3 of the way from the corner where where the eves meet the roof across to the center line you just drew. And 1/4 to 1/2 from that corner to the peak of the roof.




This is the back of the house where the sheathing is all warped across the entire length. Every panel. The red line represents the place where the house and roof have separated. There is at least a two-inch space between the roof and walls. When my parents bought this house it was infested with mice. Easy to see why. Occasionally a few get in but the storage room is a minefield with traps and they don’t get far. Water stains are worst in this corner. This is also the area where the insulation started to get dark. The insulation on the sidewall and on the back roof were first. Then all over. It also might be the reason that I could never see a leak when it rained. No dripping. Water was getting in but was probably running down the sides and into that crack.



This corner is also the place roofers used to access the roof (both front and back); every heavy load of new shingles was dropped there as well. This could have caused the separation or made it worse. 
This could explain why we started to see the water problems after the reproofing in 1998.

What would have been the difference in cost to previous owners to cover the warping of the sheathing with insulation compared to a new roof?

Of course that leaves the question of why we weren’t told about the damage, which I think could also be explained.
Is there any method that would enable me to determine how old that damage is? This might explain the whole thing. What do you think? Am I correct in holding off on the new roof until I get meticulous documentation i.e. pictures etc.?

Sorry this is confusing. If I knew how to put an image in it would have madme sense. If you drew a triangle and with a vertical line cut away one half of the right side that is where the separation occurs. 



Thank you for the time and effort you are spending on this problem.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I think what you are trying to describe is a cape cod with a second story, with a knee wall, which seperates the living quarter environment from the last portion of the house, closest to the eaves, which would be used as storage.

Insulation being tacked directly to the underside of the decking is common and unfortunate, but most insulation contractors, roofers, or homeowners understand that there needs to be an air flow cavity on the underside of the decking. Even if they do understand it, do they go through the additional minor time and expense to do it right? Hardly!

Were they covering up an existing defect? Quite possibly so, but you would nrver be able to prove it, so don't waste your time and energy on it. 

Why is your contractor already working on the job removing insulation if you have not given the okay on it? Or, is this a seperate contractor, and he is authorized?

That seems strange, to say the least. Do they only do hand-shake deals where you live? I think not, at least if they want to get paid for what they are going to be doing.

Ed


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## lindaberrien (May 24, 2007)

The insulation was taken out by a separate contractor who is doing mold demediation.

Everything is on hold right now. My Mom took an instant turn for the worst this morning. Now we are in the final hours, and I took a quick break to let you know. You've given me so much of your time, I just didn't want you to think I had walked off and ignored all the info you gave me. My Mom had seemed fine, then all of a sudden she was fighting to breath. I was terrified it had something to do with getting the mold out of the attic, but the second floor is totally shut off from the first floow and they rigged curtains all over. The Hospice nurse said it was totally unrelated.

I'll check back when this is not so painful and I can get my thoughts together. Thank you again for your help.
linda berrien


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## mikemy6 (Feb 21, 2007)

Hi Linda 
You had said you think you may have (black)mold this should be checked out, as black mold is a biohazard and may be the cause of your loved ones' bad turn. The fact that the removal of the insulation and the sudden health problem are so closely related you also may want to stay away. Test the house.
This is not something that a nurse could tell you off-hand, and could effect you too! You may need a lawyer.

My prayers go out with this reply
Michael Myers


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

It seems as if there is too much of a coincidence in the sudden swing towards decreased health and the current mold removal.

Remove your mother from the premises, now.

Nurses are not up to date on medical related causes. They are just people too. Is she diligent on her research regarding the statement she made to you and would accept any liabilities? Certainly not.

My condolences to your mothers health problems and the exasperation going on with the current remediation. It sounds as if there current work has absolutely aggravated an already poor health situation.

For what it counts, our prayers are with you and your family.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Hey Guys,

I just received this following e-mail, which has been edited for brevity, from LindaBerrien. *She still could use advice after her recent loss.*

Linda, I am sure I speak for all of the compassionate and concerned members who have taken time to reply to you so far, that we are all truly sorry for your loss and in no way should you feel responsible because you were taking care of your home responsibilities.

As before, our prayers remain with you and your memories of your Mother.

Sincerely,

Ed


*From: LindaBerrien*
*Sorry I have not been in touch but my Mom passed away on the May 30. *

*Here is the roofers proposal,*
*Remove about 364 squares of shingles*
*Remove and replace 45 sheets of plywood on roof. *
*resheet with 1/2" OSB*
*Connect plywood with metal clips.*
*Shingles - Board chooses color etc*
*Install Sure Vent Ridge System*
*Refelt roof with 15 lb roofing felt*
*Reflash roof with 29 grade flashing*
*clean up.*
*Almost $9,000*

*Now that's for the whole roof. Actually the front roof is absolutely *
*fine. No signs of leaking at all, no warped sheathing, no long nails *
*protruding. I'm going to try to get them to do just the back half of *
*the roof. They said before that their insurance company won't *
*insure half a rood. But I'm going to try again.*

*lindaberrien*


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