# Laminate Flooring - Is It Installed Under Bathroom Cabinets?



## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

I have a question I am hoping someone in the know can answer -- Of course this can't be with 100% certainty, I am just curious about the standard practice.

I have a sink with cabinet in the corner of a bathroom in my home I am refinishing. I would like to remove the cabinet (which goes all the way to the floor and is just caulked in place from what I can see in the corner). I will replace it with a freestanding cabinet and bowl sink. The question I have is this -- My bathroom has a laminate floor. If I rip out the cabinet, am I likely to discover that the laminate wasn't continued under there and just ends? What is the usual practice? With the new cabinet having legs and not covering the floor, I worry about having an exposed area (and do not want to re-do the floor).

Advice? I'd hate to rip this out and end up having to put it back in. Oh, and are these things typically hooked in with more than just caulk when they are floor to sinktop? 

THANKS!

Brad


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## amazinlittledevil (Jan 4, 2007)

In my experience the flooring usually just goes up to the cabinet or vanity. I remodeled several bathrooms and I have never seen the flooring go undernieth the cabinet, not to say someone hasnt done it.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Bummer -- Anyone else? I did look at the edges and it looks to AT LEAST go under the vanity by a bit (I don't see it ending at the vanity) but if Devil is right, it ends just under the vanity edges. Shame, too, since it would have only used like another 2x2 piece of cheap laminate. Sigh.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

It should be not too difficult to find the answer from some investigation. If it is outside the cabinet, there must be trims(base line), if it is inside the cabinet, there must be no trims along the edge of the bottom of the cabinet. Do you see trims?

if the answer is no, that means it is under the carbient as well... but there is a slight chance that the guy who build the floor if he knows the part is going to cover by the carbinet, he is not finishing it or do a bad job and who care... like some people tiling behind the stove (I actually talked about my own experience here)...


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Yeah, I don't see trims, so my only fear now is he went part of the way under, but not all the way. Even if he got close to the wall it's no big deal, since the new vanity will cover the bulk of that corner, I'd just rather not have the entire corner uncovered. I don't see trims though, so it at least goes part of the way under the installed vanity.

Guess it's up to me to rip the thing out if I really wanna know, huh?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I think it is very unlikely someone will build the floor halfway... I think you are 90% ok...


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

I think if I can get to it I will try and rip it out tonight, so I'll report back with the findings as soon as I do. 

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=173482-43669-800&lpage=none

The new vanity and sink I am thinking of buying (link above) is nice, but I don't like the lack of a backsplash behind the sink (my current basic white porcelain sink has the backsplash built in). Any ideas on what I could do to substitute (other than wipable paint behind there?)


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

You are likely need to do some drywall repairs when replacing the unit.... it is not difficult and inexpensive... mudding/sanding/paint

you can then do some tiling behind the sink to avoid water spill to the wall... it would be little area you need to tile... it is not difficult and inexpensive again...

and I suggest you to rid out your existing unit, to check the condition of the flooring before getting this new unit, in case you need to change to another one which coverup the floor...


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks for all this great advice. I didn't get the unit out just yet due to yet ANOTHER wrench in the works -- My house is a split level but totally above ground and this bathroom is on the ground floor. So instead of running the drain pipe out the back of the unit and into the wall (which is an outside wall) it runs through a chopped hole in the vanity base, down directly into the floor underneath (off to the left of the drain a bit, it's snaked around all in there). So now I'm going to have to cut a hole in the new vanity (if I choose to buy it) and also risk seeing all that mess underneath it since as you see, the new vanity has legs and is not floor standing.

Drywall repair and sanding is no big deal. I never tiled before so I'm not quite sure how to do that (I gotta get some pics up so you can see the situation).

Maybe this wasn't the greatest idea after all. :icon_confused:


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Don't know if I understand you 100%, but sounds like you said there are holes on the floor underneath the existing unit... if this is the case, no way the laminate looks nice there.... and you shouldn't get such unit which not cover up the flooring..... but I may not know your exact picture...


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, ready for help once more!










Looks like the laminate goes all the way under and that's good news. And the pipe hole is far enough back that I won't mind it once I put in the new vanity.

Anyway, the problem is this mess you see in the photo from the wacky plumber who did this -- I got as much off as I could by hand, the rest of this feels like it might be glued in or something.

Would there be any harm to just hacksawing this mess off at the base and rebuilding it? Or, should I be able to get this apart with some sort of tool? There's no more threaded screw-caps on the pipe anywhere.

I can't get the vanity out of there until I get that mess of pipe off.

Help???


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Update -- A quick hit with a sledgehammer knocked it right out of there, though it looks like some sort of industrial strength plumbling stuff was used to hook that mess together for sure. I've got a broken piece still lodged into the pipe coming up out of the floor - I can post a picture of it if it might help...How can I get that broken piece out of there so I can replace it right once the new unit is in???


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## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

You'll get a better response from someone else on here shortly. That's PVC, and as you suspected it is glued together. In the future a sledghammer and plumbing usually don't go well together. 
I would have taken a hacksaw to it down at the bottom and cut it flush with the bottom of the vanity. You then have plenty of pipe still sticking out of the floor to glue a coupler too and make your own "whacky mess" for the new sink.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Yea post an after picture.


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

it depends on when it was installed before or after the cabinet went in. I have laminate floor under my cabinet because i installed it first then put the toilet and vanity in. Actually i did it like that because i thought it was the easiest way to do it. Any cutting irregularities i could hide under the vanity.


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## 747 (Feb 11, 2005)

in that pick that is kind of a screwie pvc drain pipe. I have one like that in my 2nd bathroom but it doesn't look like that. Meaning it goes through the floor. But i don't think the pvc pipe is that big.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Yeah, I was kind of hoping the sledge would knock the glue loose, not break the entire pipe. What I'm thinking I'll have to do now is use some kind of cutting tool to get into the PVC coming up from the floor there and get out the garbage inside -- Any recommendations on how I can get the broken stuff outta there? I'd like to of course use the outer PVC there still if possible.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

That should be 1-1/2

Use what they call a Ram Bit, it will chew out the out pipe in the fitting so you can reuse the existing hub, you might have order it online, or a plumbing supply house might have one.

Use this with a 1/2" drill and use in slow speed.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks! Gonna just order one online. Will that also be able to get the longer piece out of the pvc I pulled out from the hole? It's glued in there pretty good as well. I'll hacksaw it down first of course. Then I assume I can use the ram bit again on the other end too and just re-fit a new piece back in? Also, what kind of material do you recommend to re-glue the new pieces back in please?

Oh, will a cordless 14.4v drill work ok with this bit?

Thanks for your help!!!!!


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

What? Better show a new picture, stop breaking your pipe, :bangin: it looks like pipe below the one I see now is 2"


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## Krichton (May 2, 2006)

Flooring doesn't go under cabinets. Laminate is kind of bad for a bathroom to be quite honest. You might as well change the floor while you're at it.


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## Tommy Plumb (Oct 7, 2006)

Krichton said:


> Flooring doesn't go under cabinets. Laminate is kind of bad for a bathroom to be quite honest. You might as well change the floor while you're at it.


I always tile under cabinate and most of the people I've done work with have tiled under cabinats. The rational is what happens if five years from now somthing goes wrong or owner decides they want new cabinats. Ontop of the floor it's simply a remove and replace, below the floor your limited to the same size or larger. Additionally you will have some grout work to do around the cabinat. It's worth the extra few dollars to do just go under them in my opinion.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

I want to continue to thank everyone for posting in this thread. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT as a plumbing novice.

First up -- A few more questions.

1) I also took out a toilet to remodel the bathroom. I am putting the same exact toilet back in but I'm told I should buy a new seal. Is that correct? What do I need to ask for at the Home Depot/Lowes before I put the toilet back?

2) I purchased a new vanity with a separate granite top at Lowes to install in the corner here. First up, there's no back for the vanity, it's just going against a wall so no big deal, but is this normal? Second, the granite top, nowhere in the instructions does it indicate a way to attach it to the vanity -- What should I use, if anything? Silicone seal? Finally, to seal the granite top to the corner, is just white caulk good enough (as was there before) or should I be looking for something else?

3) Ron The Plumber -- The pipes are indeed 1 1/2 like you suggested I believe. The top of the PVC cap in the photo says 2 x 1 1/2. So do I go with that pipe chewing drill bit you recommended then? And can I just use that with my cordless drill? The outer pipe in the photo is much thicker/stronger than the PVC inside it, would a flathead screwdriver and a hammer to chisel it out possibly work as well?

As always, thanks -- I did consider redoing the laminate floor but for now am gonna keep it as is.

Look forward to some replies, I'll post a photo when it's done too. I really appreciate all the assistance.

Brad


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> 1) I also took out a toilet to remodel the bathroom. I am putting the same exact toilet back in but I'm told I should buy a new seal. Is that correct? What do I need to ask for at the Home Depot/Lowes before I put the toilet back?


Yes always use a new seal.



> 2) I purchased a new vanity with a separate granite top at Lowes to install in the corner here. First up, there's no back for the vanity, it's just going against a wall so no big deal, but is this normal?


Yes it is normal 



> Second, the granite top, nowhere in the instructions does it indicate a way to attach it to the vanity -- What should I use, if anything? Silicone seal? Finally, to seal the granite top to the corner, is just white caulk good enough (as was there before) or should I be looking for something else?


I believe you can use caulking for both questions.



> The pipes are indeed 1 1/2 like you suggested I believe. The top of the PVC cap in the photo says 2 x 1 1/2. So do I go with that pipe chewing drill bit you recommended then? And can I just use that with my cordless drill? The outer pipe in the photo is much thicker/stronger than the PVC inside it, would a flathead screwdriver and a hammer to chisel it out possibly work as well?


You can give it a try, but remember if the fitting the pipe is glued into cracks, you will have go further into the remodel, take you time and don't use a sledge hammer. If you use the tool take it slow, don't push it, chew out the old pipe slowly.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Ron. I did go ahead and order the bit in case it's needed. Haven't gotten quite that far yet. More little issues.

The new bowl sink and granite countertop/vanity I bought is a bit troublesome. It has curved legs which don't allow it to sit flush with a wall on the right or left (so the granite countertop can't be caulked in, too big of a gap between the right side and the wall) and the existing floor baseboard at the back is also preventing me from placing the back of the vanity against the wall, too (the leg is bumping up against it).

Which leads me to more questions...The granite countertop DOES extend a bit, overhang off the back enough so I can caulk to the BACK wall. Which is fine. I'm not too worried about overflow with the vessel/bowl sink anyway. Second, there's about a 1 inch gap between the back of the vanity and the back wall. Is there a method I can use to secure it or can I just use some longer screws, drywall anchors, and have some space there (the screws won't be visible unless you look behind it anyway).

Thanks for all your help. The toilet is back in with a new seal and working great.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

You can use longer screws, see if you can locate a stud or two, easy of you have a stud finder, vanities are normally secured to the wall


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ron,

Just figured I would update you on my progress. Things are going well. I managed to chisel off the old stuff from the pipe out of the floor cleanly. I am learning a lot. I purchased a new coupler and reducer for the remaining pipe coming up out of the floor. They went in there SO TIGHT by hand that I can't get them back out to prime and seal them. With them being in so tight, is it ok to do it without the glue? I know it's kind of "against code" but I was considering not using glue on the rest of it either, everything seems to fit so tightly. I guess I could pay for that with leaks but it would stink to have to again break a pipe to remove this thing if it's ever needed. I dunno.

I got the vanity in and secured to the back wall no problem. About to attach the vessel and faucet. Before that, obviously the granite top has to go on there -- Nowhere in the instructions does it say to caulk or seal the granite top to the vanity, it basically just has you laying it on there. Is sealing or caulking still necessary? I may not caulk this to the back wall and can't to the side wall anymore (sticks out too far)...So it is possible that would be the only thing holding the granite top in one place (aside from the pipe coming down from the drain in the center of it.

Thanks SO much for all your advice, I couldn't have come this far without you. I really have learned a lot!

Brad


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> I purchased a new coupler and reducer for the remaining pipe coming up out of the floor. They went in there SO TIGHT by hand that I can't get them back out to prime and seal them. With them being in so tight, is it ok to do it without the glue?
> 
> 
> Brad


No bad idea, you have to glue them on.



> Nowhere in the instructions does it say to caulk or seal the granite top to the vanity, it basically just has you laying it on there. Is sealing or caulking still necessary?


Top could be heavy enough, if you don't want to caulk it down, then don't.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Ron, you rule.

So that leads me to a good question -- Now that I have forced the coupler and the reducer cap onto the pipe coming out the floor, how do I get them off? No glue was used but even with a vice grip these things aren't coming off.

I decided to go ahead and try and size things up in the meantime. I'm including a photo of the various pieces I bought and have at my disposal. I'm also showing you a photo of the old glued together piece (on the left) that the last plumber had to do to get down the drain hole.

Not sure if it comes across in the photo, but the drain hole is towards the back of the cabinet (maybe 2 or 3 inches back from where the drain comes down). They are both pretty much centered. Do you have any suggestions on parts/pieces I can use (after I get the proper trap) to route the water down?

I tried using my old trap, by the way, and the plastic seal ring you see there by itself towards the front just doesn't QUITE get on there. It fits fine on the old drain, just won't go around this new drain. Is there a size difference in traps to fit certain drain types? It's literally a millimeter too small from how it feels trying to get it around there. How frustrating! No new trap came with the sink.

Sorry for all the dumb questions, it's my first time doing plumbing that requires changing all the fittings. I really appreciate it.

See photo:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

This is how I would do this.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ron, man look at you -- You're like a master at this!

First up -- Not sure what a studor vent is -- I assume it's something I put on top of the open hole that will go nowhere on top of the tee?

Second, if you ran a pipe stright down from the metal drain to the cabinet floor, it will be about 3 inches (1 and 1/2 hole lengths) further front than the hole towards the back of the cabinet -- Does that change anything about the diagram? I assume then that the trap should direct connect right to the tee or does a piece of PVC need to go between?

Thanks for taking all this time with me! I hope others can learn from this thread as well, it's great stuff for a newbie DIYer like me.

Brad


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Being a strong believer in the picture is worth 1000 words adage, here's my progress so far (note I am just sizing stuff up, no glue yet!) 

The trap is in 2 pieces and obviously just screwed together. If you think I will need a shorter trap extension let me know, the extension I attached is quite long (it would overshoot the drain in the back if I turned it towards the back).

Not sure how well it shows in the photo, but the back pipe is indeed a couple inches behind the trap/drain. 

I'll hit the Home Depot tomorrow, so if you have any pieces you suggest I can buy to make this a cleaner fit, do tell! Also, you can see the pieces I still have left on the right, and I can of course cut the PVC to any size needed.

Much thanks, hope the photo ahead helps:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Looks good so far, as for the studor vent, also called an inline vent, which you need, it will screw into a female adaptor, and the trap connection nut screws onto a trap adaptor, short pieces of pipe is needed between the adaptors, remember the trap swivels, so just make sure you can make the direct connection once all the pipe are glued up.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks Ron. I feel like I'm being a moron here because I can't seem to figure out the final pieces of this pipe puzzle. Sorry for being so dense.

I have two more photos here. The first is the trap going around the front, with the trap extension on there. No trap adaptor on the end. Turning it back that way, it's already past the point where the drain is coming up.

In the next photo, which may be a better approach, WITH the trap adaptor attached (At least I think/hope that's a trap adaptor I put on the end there? That's as tight as it fits and there are still quite a few threads exposed as you can see in photo #2), it terminates just above the hole. So, if I think I am understanding correctly, should I cut that trap extension short enough so it plus the trap adaptor end up just to the left of the drain spout, allowing me to extend that up with another piece of PVC with a tee (then with the opening pointing left) and a studor vent on top of the tee?

In which case, when looking at the second photo here, I would just need to cut the second trap piece shorter, add a piece of pvc, tee, and studor vent? Does the studor vent fit right into the top of the tee without any extra pieces? I don't think there was such a piece on the plumbing the way it was.

THANKS!!!! I hope I am almost there.  Two photos below...


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

After you get the tee, then cut the extention, (we call it the trap arm), to the desired lenght, the studor vent, in-line vent, will go as high as possible on top of the tee, thats why you will add pipe and a female adaptor on the top.

1st picture is the direction I would rotate the trap in.

Glue the tee on after you know where you want it. Last thing you want to do is have the tee turned to close or to far for the trap to connect, tee can be glued on in any direction, just so as long as the trap will connect.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, got the parts. New problem -- With the tee, plus a small pvc stub, plus the female adaptor, plus the in-line vent for the top of that, the height is WAY too much and it won't fit in (even if I slide the trap as low as I possibly can down the drain). Do I now need to purchase something to extend the drain down further before attaching the trap?

I've spent so much on PVC pieces I could probably have built a whole new sink.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Cut the pieces of pipe that between the fitting until it fits.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Actually that's not the issue, it's that the trap arm doesn't go low enough on the steel drain to allow enough upper clearance for the tee, plus even a tiny PVC, plus adaptor, plus vent. 

Is there something I need to buy to allow the trap and the trap arm to hang lower in the cabinet? I think that's my only choice here unless you have another idea that works with what I already have.

Thanks, photo ahead with comments!


See photo:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Buy a 1-1/2" slipjoint etension tube, it will allow you to lower the trap off the bottom of the sink drain, get one at 12" and cut it lenght.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Looks like what I need. Then the rest will be just measure, cut and glue! So that attachment photo just goes onto the drain first, right, then I add the original trap on to the bottom of THAT piece. Correct?

If so, hopefully next time you see my post it's to show you the finished product.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Thats how it will work.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, here we go!

So we are in the home stretch now. I hooked up the faucet and have running water. No leaks there. Also have all the parts I need. I saw a flexible slipjoint extension so I picked that up as well, figuring it would allow me some room for error in the final fittings. I also did get the regular piece you suggested above in case I didn't like the flex (is it a bad idea? I can always cut and switch it to the standard non flex).

Anyway, without cutting the trap arm, the photo represents the best way I could do this right now. I ran some water and had just a couple minor drips, which is to be expected since nothing has been glued yet (just pressed together, don't worry!). I know you recommended going around the front, which I MAY be able to do, except the darn trap (not even the trap arm, just the trap itself) extends too far to the right of the drain pvc coming up from the floor to get a good angle at it.

However, I DID notice the thing was draining a bit slow -- Is this a symptom of running the water in the unnatural way I did? I may be able to make it work taking the trap around the front POSSIBLY.

Anyway, before I glue anything, here's two photos of where I'm at. Your opinions Ron? The first on the left is the way I had it working with cuts as they are. I also took the trap arm off and swung the trap around the way you suggested in the second photo on the right (probably the right way to do this?). As you might be able to see, it doesn't allow much room (not any really) for the trap arm to meet up with the drainage system (there is maybe an inch of open space between those two holes there back to front). If I cut the trap arm down to JUST BARELY a curve I could make it fit, I'm guessing. 

How would you proceed? Oh, and since I'm close, how fast does PVC glue dry? I plan to glue the whole crazy apparatus together outside of the sink, then just glue the final drainage piece in when it's all said and done.

Photos ahead...And THANKS!!! I bet you missed me today. Hahah. Eagerly awaiting your advice as always...


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

You can use that flex tailpiece if you like, there not code approved, reason is for it has ridges, these will collect scum and hair over time. Trap it around the backside is ok, slow drain mean the line is getting clogged up, and needs to be cleaned out. 

Other then that looks good. :thumbsup:


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

If you do not have the 45 degree fittings glued then you may be able to rotate them to the other side of the drain and see if you can get a better alignment to the sink drain.

The glue drys fast. Usually less than a minute.

You may want to put marks on the fittings/pipe before you glue them so that you get the correct location.

Is this bathroom on the seccond floor or the first floor?

Do you have access to the drain line after it goes below this floor?

When you hit the old drain with the sledge hammer it may have damaged the fittings/drain line further down the line. You may want to keep on eye out for leaks further down. A hacksaw or pvc cutter would work better next time. All part of learning.:thumbup: 

looks good so far.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey Ron, Hey Redline!

The bathroom is on the lower level of the house, first floor. There is no basement so it basically goes right down into the sewage system under the vanity. I've replaced every pipe all the way to the floor so I think I did the best I could, though if you guys think putting some liquid plumber down there first would help I can do that.

Rotating the 45's the other way isn't a bad idea, actually. What do you think of that Ron? Also, a neighbor of mine was up and had a few comments -- He suggested I use a smaller run of PVC coming up out of the base there, and turn the 45's back so the plumbing runs up against the back wall, between the hot and cold inputs. Thoughts there? 

Also, he suggested I don't have a proper studor vent, he said what I have looks like a mechanical vent and is not allowed!??! I paid around $5 for it but he said a studor vent is $20! Is that right? The the last line here didn't have any venting at all, and it worked fine for 6 years!!!

Oh and finally, I'll replace that flex tube with a non flex then. I want to do this right!


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> Rotating the 45's the other way isn't a bad idea, actually. What do you think of that Ron?


Sure you can, just so as long as you can make that direct connection.



> Also, a neighbor of mine was up and had a few comments -- He suggested I use a smaller run of PVC coming up out of the base there, and turn the 45's back so the plumbing runs up against the back wall, between the hot and cold inputs. Thoughts there?


You can do it that way also there is so many ways you can accomplish this, you just have to decide which way to go.



> Also, he suggested I don't have a proper studor vent, he said what I have looks like a mechanical vent and is not allowed!??! I paid around $5 for it but he said a studor vent is $20! Is that right? The the last line here didn't have any venting at all, and it worked fine for 6 years!!!


Either or will work, there both against code here , but you need a vent, it allows air in the line, keeps gases out of the house.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Does this sink have a stopper?

( I do not see one in the picture. Hope that doesn't change your plan.)

You could also lengthen the small piece between the 45's to get it over farther to one side and may be help out the trap connection(?). You would also have to adjust the length of the straight pipe above the upper 45 and shorten it.


You could also shorten the straight piece that is last to come out of the trap if that would help.

many possibilities just need to find what fits best for you.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, if what I have works as a vent, no need to spend another $20 just to get a different type that's against code anyway, I guess.

No stopper, actually, it's a toggle push pop drain (forget what they call that). You guys are right, lots of options there...If I get the works back closer to the wall I may be able to even fit a shelf in. I'll have to get out the 'ol saw and make a few more cuts, also think I will switch to the non-flex extension as well. Hopefully I'll glue it up right and be in business tonight! Looking forward to being done.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, got it done, and I have leaks everywhere. The good news is that none of my PVC glue points seem to be leaking (though I must have made a slight error in the assembly as the PVC is slightly crooked, though I don't think that's the issue).

I've taken photos of where the leaks are. I've tightened these up as best I could but have NOT used any thread tape (though I think the problem is bigger than that, at least up at the countertop).

Where the trap meets the trap arm, I can actually see water pooled inside the connector there, after I shut off the water.

There also seems to be a slow leak at the top where the water first comes under (right at the drain) and I'm not sure where else.

So, where to start? What might be the problem here?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

I need a closer photo shot of the bottom side of sink, and tell me how you assembled this.

For other leaks try tape or use some pipe dope.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

One more thing I see, is the santee turned upside down?


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

For the leak nearest the sink - did you apply plumbers putty before you assembled that area?

To help stop the other leaks, you should first loosen the hand fittings at the trap. Then start each fitting to get the inside tapered washer to seat against the pipe. Do not tighten just one but slowly work each one down evenly until they are all tight. The washer(s) may be damaged and may need to be replaced if you overtightened them and they were not seated properly.(?)

What will usually happen is that if you completly tighten one fitting first then it may not allow the other tapered washers to seat properly against the pipe. It restricts the movement of the other fittings to properly seat.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, this is kinda bad news. First off I had no idea the that there was a right way and a wrong way for the tee to go. Both top and bottom looked the same to me. Maybe I bought the wrong piece? I'm almost certain that I didn't see a difference in that tee so I didn't pay any mind to which end went up. Since everything in there is totally glued together so closely, and since I am less than an inch from the top of the counter, adding any height to this is going to now allow it to fit. It's quite possible I will have to cut at the base and start completely over. 

I wasn't sure about plumbers putty -- The instructions did not instruct me to use any but I wasn't sure. I thought maybe you didn't use it for vessels or something. There are rubber gaskets directly under the drain on the sink side and another rubber gasket flat up against the countertop from underneath. That brass nut you see at the very top is what I tightened to hold it in place. So there's no putty there at all but instructions didn't say to use it.

Ok so I'm sort of stuck here -- what's going to happen if I stop the leaks but don't turn the tee upside down? My plan was to re-tighten everything and try tape. Most of the water IS going down the drain. But what did I screw up by having this tee facing the wrong way? I swear from looking at it both ends looked identical to me...


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Looking at the tee you can see the curve on the side of it, it is suppose to curve downward, you maynot have any problems the way it is, and it will work like it is.

Solve the leaks and enjoy.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Okay, I did go ahead and use some thread tape and refasten all the trap area connections -- Looks like no leaks there now. Just one slow drip coming from right where the sink meets the counter underneath. I didn't use any plumbers putty anywhere there, instructions didn't say to, they did include a rubber washer for both the top and bottom which I thought was the substitute for putty - Figured maybe with a vessel sink you didn't use putty. Am I wrong? Is the lack of putty what's causing that particular link?

Ron, a photo of the top and a scan of the sink drain installation instructions are coming shortly.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Photos:


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

You will need to determine where the leak generates from.

It could be leaking from where the sink connects to the drain or the connection where it meets the chrome pipe (tail piece).


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> First off I had no idea the that there was a right way and a wrong way for the tee to go. Both top and bottom looked the same to me. Maybe I bought the wrong piece? I'm almost certain that I didn't see a difference in that tee so I didn't pay any mind to which end went up.


When you posted a picture of the tee yesterday at 12:04, the photo has the tee in the correct position. The curved section points down. It happens.:yes:


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Put some putty under the top of that drain assembly, then test for leaks.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

You may be able to loosen the first pvc fitting. Then loosen the brass nut below the sink. Slightly push up the pop up assemply and put your putty in. Re-assemble.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

The putty seemed to do it! I'm installed and leak free for now. I figure having that tee upside down might cause some issues down the line, so I am still considering reversing it one day (I can't believe I didn't notice the curve, I feel so stupid)...But for now, it's working.

Can't thank all of you, espeically Ron, enough for your time and patience. I've learned a lot!

Brad


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

:thumbup: 



Did you have to do anything to the trap fittings to get them to stop leaking or just slightly tighten them some more?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Glad to help out :thumbsup:


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, I'm back. Bad news, we have a leak. 

It's RIGHT at the base where the reducer meets the pipe coming up out of the floor. Worst possible spot as I can't see a way of getting this out without cutting right at the base pipe which is going to not only make me have to start totally over (and buy all new pieces), but also possibly not even leave enough pipe exposed coming up out of the floor to put a new reducer cap on there.

Is there ANYTHING I can do under the lip of the reducer cap, where the arrow is, to stop this leak? A bead of silicone sealant perhaps??? I hope there might be something I can do...Even though I realize it's not the ideal solution, starting over just makes me kinda ill. What a bummer.

See the photo below. If there's something I can do, please let me know. If not, can you let me know where the smartest place to cut will be to allow me to get the sink back out (above inside the cabinet or right below the cap there?). What worries me about cutting below the cap is that it doesn't leave a lot of exposed pipe coming up out of the floor anymore.

Hellllpppp...Sorry Ron guess I didn't fix it right the first time, ugggh


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Try this, dry it off real good, now add several layers of pvc glue over that spot, let each layer dry before applying the next layer, a good six layers should seal it up. Don't run water till this is all dry.

Now you know that using a sledge hammer was a bad idea.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Was this coupling glued on the bottom?
I do not see the pvc glue there.
You may be able to lift up the upper drain section and glue this leaking joint.

Where does this drain go below the floor? Is this drain on the second floor or the first floor?

If you have access to the drain pipe as drops below the floor then I would cut out the leaking joint if you are unable to repair it and replace this short section.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Redline brings up a few idea, think of those 1st, if those are not possible, then try what I thought of.

If glue is clear you will not see it, in a picture anyways.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey guys,

Thanks for the speedy replies as always. The drain is on the base cement floor of the house, I can't get below it. I also can't really get under the vanity to lift that drain couper without cutting the PVC somewhere as this goes up through a hole in the bottom of the vanity. I have only a couple inches of clearance in there, maybe a couple more if I lift the vanity up on blocks until I hit the first 45 degree turn in the PVC maze inside the vanity. I'm not really sure how I'd get leverage under that cap anyway, it's cemented in and there's only an inch or so between the bottom of the cap and the floor. 

I'd already tried Ron's idea of putting more cement around the seam but with no luck, leak was still there -- Also did some Google research this morning and read a post from someone saying that extra PVC glue was just a temporary fix, maybe for a few months, and that I'd see the leak come back again. Is that true?

Oh, and Ron, if I ignore that and try the 6 layers of PVC glue anyway, how long should I wait for each layer to dry before applying a new layer?

Two other fixes I saw mentioned, both of which were only temporary -- One guy recommended an industrial glue called GOOP - He said to slather it around the joint and that it would last a few months. Another guy suggested epoxy cement, but also said that due to its bonding properties it would eventually expand and allow water through. They all mentioned that the PVC cement was a bonding agent but it wouldn't serve as a leak stopper.

Brad


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Just read this on another page...Now I'm REALLY scared to try this...

"DO NOT ADD *PVC* CEMENT TO THE OUTSIDE OF A *GLUE* *JOINT*. 
*PVC* "Cement" is actually a *PVC* Solvent. It breaks down the plastic and "welds" the two pieces together. Adding cement to the outside of a *joint* will weaken the fitting and could result in a break later. "


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> The drain is on the base cement floor of the house, I can't get below it.


Are you saying that the drain pipe is inside cement (cement floor) after it leaves thru the vanity?


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

My house is built on a cement slab -- I have no basement. I assume there is a small sub-area under the concrete where the plumbing exits but I have no idea how that's set up. The pipe you see in the photo above is going directly down at ground level into the cement slab. I have no way at all to get under it. I assume it goes down and into whatever the plumbing system is and out.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

If you was to cut the coupling off a close as possible to the hub, how much pipe do you think you would be left with?


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

If I got under there with a saw, and cut below the coupling, there would be 1 inch of exposed PVC coming up out of the floor (of the 2" wide base PVC). That's it. I'm not sure that's enough to work with. I could also cut above the coupling...But then would still have to figure out how to get that coupling and reducer off the pipe (back to square one basically!)


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

The other thing I was thinking is cut just below the first 45 INSIDE the cabinet, try and get all that other junk chipped off the drainage PVC from the floor (like the start again) and start over. Does that make more sense?


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey guys,

I gave it some thought and decided starting over was the best approach. I managed to get the whole works apart and back to this state:











So now, the problem is that I noticed what MAY be causing the leaks. This bare pipe that comes up through the cement floor (base of the house) has some damage. There are some slivers missing on the sides of it (likely a side effect from removing the last coupler that was on there before I started).

So, before I start doing anything, is there anything I can/should do to this pipe before I attach/glue ANYTHING to it? I can try and get a photo of the damage if that would help. It's a little messy back there right now. I just want to do this RIGHT this time. I cannot get underneath this pipe as this is the base/ground floor of my home (no basement). This is about as bare as it gets.

Help/suggestions? THANK YOU ALL!

Brad


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Also, just to make sure I am STARTING with the right 2 pieces, this is what I bought to start with on this bare pipe. The coupler on the right with the reducer glued into it (on the left) both placed on top of this bare pipe. Are these the proper parts? Also, does it matter if I glue the reducer into the coupler first, or glue the coupler onto the bare pipe first? The last time I did this, the reducer didn't fit in there too well by hand, so I rubber malleted it in there once I applied the primer and glue to get as flush a fit as possible.










Thanks!


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Those are the parts needed.

It does not matter what gets glued first, make sure you prime 1st, let primer dry and apply a good coat of glue, let fitting take a good hold before moving on to the next step.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Ok, thanks Ron - And no extra precautions/steps I need to take due to there being chips out of the side of the pipe coming up out of the floor then? No extra cement or anything?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Just make sure you apply a good coating, so it seals good.


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

Considering that you are running out of pipe then I would suggest that you may try to use a rubber connector with metal tension rings (fernco). This will allow you to tighten the rubber coupler on the pipe that has chips on it. If the coupler is glued again and leaks then you will be running out of pipe and the only option is to dug up the cement slab.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

How big are these chips, post a picture showing them.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

It's so hard to get a good shot due to all the primer and the distance constraints (it's against the wall) -- I circled where there is a chip missing from the back of the pipe though, it's like a sliver of it is off. There's a few spots like that on it.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Is this the fernco piece or do you mean something else? This would go overtop the exposed bare pipe in the photo above then I would just run the PVC down into it from the vanity glue-free, right? The only issue I see here I think the pipe in the photo is only 2" wide and these seem way wider.

http://www.fernco.com/QS.asp


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Looks like there is plenty of surface for a glue joint, but if you want to use a fernco, then use a 2 x 1-1/2" and take it from there.

If you glue it, sand the surface of that pipe lightly and prime and glue it, have a block of wood ready so if the fitting has a fit seating all the way down, use block to intice it to fully seat.

If you even wanted to you could saw off the chipped area and you would still have plenty of stub left for the glued joint.

If me I'd do a glue joint.


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

How does this look? I assume since there is a band at the bottom and the top I don't need to use any glue at all when inserting the PVC into the top, just insert, get it to the proper location and tighten? I should have done this right from the start -- It allows me to pull out the sink/vanity if I ever need to without having to cut through pipe.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Thats will do it. No glue needed


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm second guessing myself. Someone else just told me that's an underground only fitting, and I should buy one that looks like this for this job:

http://www.fernco.com/proflex.asp

What to do guys?


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Use it, it's not just for underground. Use the 1st one you show


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

It worked great! I was even able to use the old piece because I cut it low enough and the lip of this stuck up so much higher. So far so good anyway -- If I need to rebuild the inside vanity works, I have all the parts, but for now it's working splendidly!!!


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> I'm second guessing myself. Someone else just told me that's an underground only fitting, and I should buy one that looks like this for this job:
> 
> http://www.fernco.com/proflex.asp
> 
> What to do guys?


Either one would have worked but this one would be used more for heavier applications where larger cast iron would be used. 



:thumbup:


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## BDPNA (Nov 27, 2006)

Well guys thanks so much -- I am leak free and it's working well. I still may rebuild the upper works to get that tee facing the right way, but now the nice part is with the rubber base, I can remove the PVC without having to cut and dig out the whole vanity.

I realize it's not a perfect job, but it's working, and I learned a lot. Thank you all so much for your help and your patience.


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## Ron The Plumber (Jun 7, 2006)

Your welcome, glad we could help you out. :thumbsup:


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

BDPNA said:


> I am leak free and it's working well.


Try not to use a hammer to "cut" the pipe next time.:jester: 

Hope that there is not any damage further down from hitting the pipe with the hammer.


Looks good.:thumbup:


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