# Spider mites!!! How often can I use Malathion?



## downunder

When spider mites are a problem, it almost always is in hot, dry weather. Like right now. So how do we change the climate for your shrubs? Note I didn't say the weather, I said the climate. A very good hosing off is quite helpful. Spider mites do not like the wet. Not a sprinkling, a good hard hosing.

First though, are you sure you have spider mites? Maybe you do, just asking. First thing to do is verify. Often you can take a sheet of white paper, hold it under the stem and tap the stem. You can knock the mites off and see them running around. They are reddish, very tiny. The thing that concerns me is that mites cause a general decline. Either they were already severly infested or.... By the end of the summer, or at least over a period of several months, established plants will just look tired and a little off color. A significant infestation can take maybe a year to kill them. I realize that your plants are new, and not as well established. But this seems a little quick to me. Don't want to give a baby a bunch of antibiotics when he has the colic!

Or, did you water properly?

All the malathion instructions I have seen say every week to ten days. That's the most often I would use it. Repeated applications can allow those that survive to develope a tolerance. And malathion can be dangerous when used improperly. If you still have plenty left, rotate it with other products.

I would suggest a 'miticide' product. X-mart, HD, etc., just read the label.
Also consider a 'systemic' insecticide. Orthene, Orthenex are a couple. They changed the names a couple of times. Look on the label for ingredient "acephate." There are a couple of others as well that have come out in the last year or two. My mind is blank on names right now!

Make sure they are watered properly. Fertilize LIGHTLY.


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## chrisn

Downunder has given perfect advice,go with it. :thumbsup:


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## proofer

Thanks for the great advice. Since planting these, I've been watering every single day that it doesn't rain (with the hose about 3-4 minutes a plant) so I can get the root system growing in the ground. A lot of these newly-planted junipers are brown at the top 5 inches or so of the plant. The 99%-dead plant that I mentioned is dead. I'll have to try the white-paper trick tomorrow during the day. I will post my results. Thanks for taking the time to write.


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## downunder

> Since planting these, I've been watering every single day that it doesn't rain (with the hose about 3-4 minutes a plant)





> Or, did you water properly?


Properly-
Allowing for adequate rain and not just a sprinkle, this means SOAKING the root ball at least twice a week, with time for drainage in between. 
This depends on:
How well the soil was prepared before planting.
How well the plants were installed.
The size of the root ball. Were these 1 gal $3.99 plants, or larger?
Weather including temperature, cloudy or sun, wind, and of course rainfall.

Irrigation must soak in. If you run a hose for five minutes and half of it runs across the yard, it has not helped the roots. If you are doing this properly, every day, then you are probably drowning them. Hope it doesn't sound like I'm being critical; if you don't know, you don't know. That's what this forum if for and I hope my limited knowledge helps along the way.

Just to ask, how many plants do you have and what size? For a 1 gallon plant, the typical HD or WM size, I would trickle a couple of minutes, wait a couple of minutes, water again, about five times three times a week. That takes time. If you have several, the wait time is not that bad. Water them taking turns. A couple of minutes on each one, times twenty plants, gives time for the first to soak in by the time you get through with the last one on each trip. 

I have some photos of exactly what I bet your plants look like. These were some that some else planted improperly in soil that was not prepared, and when I watered them the water would not soak in. Will try to get them to post. Have not done that before.

Till later,
Richard


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## downunder

Maybe these will come through. If not I'll try again later.


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## proofer

Well, I did the test with the white paper. And no, I didn't see any spider mites at all. So maybe it was just the shock of planting?

I should have given you a little more information. This isn't the first time these plants have been planted in our yard. We bought them last December at 90% off. They were very healthy then, and we planted them in the ground all together in the backyard, to stay there until summertime when we knew where we wanted to eventually plant them around the yard.

Fast forward to this summer (a month ago): We dug them up from the backyard (still very healthy looking) and planted them around the front and side yard. We also, at that time, added red lava rock as a base around these plants. Then, one month later, this one spiral-looking juniper bush is completely dead, and most of the other spiral and poodle junipers are brown, about the top 5 inches.

Well, we got a good rain last night. Hopefully, if the problem is with the shock of replanting, maybe this good soaking did the trick and will bring some of these back to life. We shall see.......


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## downunder

Good deal on the wintertime purchase!:thumbsup:

Fall, early winter is really the BEST time to plant and/or move shrubs. Roots continue to grow as long as the soil temp is above 45-50*. Summer heat and drought is especially tough and, unfortunately, you compounded that with the lava rock. That rock was like putting a heating pad on the roots.

The good rain will most definitely help if they aren't too far gone. But, remember to keep them watered.

The photos I posted (still learning that new task) show exactly what transplant stress and improper watering looks like. Roots are odd in that topside damage often correlates to roots on the opposite side of the plant. Kind of like a stroke on your right side affects your left side. For example, these and your shrubs are dying mostly on top. Translate that to roots in the botton not getting water! I DID NOT plant the cryptomerias and even with 1200 gallons soaked in over two hours, twice a week, they are struggling. They were planted way too deep, so I had to go in (behind someone else) and dig out about two-four inches of soil from the top of the root balls. The postive of that is that I now have a watering basin about two inches deep, dripline wide, around most of them. Note that the ground slopes away at the back. FYI- I soaked the depression on top of the roots probably ten times to try to get the water to go down into the root ball. Did a soil probe and soil was dry and hard below about four inches after 600 gallons so I started putting two loads on them. I use a 600 gallon water tank so that's how I can measure exactly how much water has been applied.

If good watering shows you which ones will pull through by beginning to put out new growth, I would put a light feeding of a 1-2-2 ratio formula. In other words, a 6-12-12, 5-10-10, or something close to that. You don't want much nitrogen now because new growth needs time to harden off or early freeze might kill everything that you worked for; the higher phosphorous will help with the root process; and the extra (K) Potassium is generally recommended to help the plant prepare for winter. That's a cellular thing with how moisture is stored that we won't get into right now but think of putting a moisturizing lotion on your face when you go out in the dry winter wind. Not exactly, but...

By the way, where are you?


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## agrace

Daily water will do them in. THe guys are right a good soaking a couple of times a week unless it gets unusually hot and windy which dries them out faster might call for additional water. Anything that gets to "brown" will finish dying. Some have just a few branches that are brown and might make it. Check with the nursery there is a fertilizer for evergreens "hollytone" is just one of them. Check to see if you can fertilize before winter?? 
By the way if you do get spider mites they really hate dish soap. You can be a lot safer spraying them with diluted dish soap in a sprayer apparently it is bitter to them. I did have spider mites in be bird nest spruces and it worked.
Good Luck


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## proofer

Thanks for the posts. I'm in Cincinnati. I'll take pictures of what I'm talking about tonight (my silly defective digital camera only takes pictures at night).


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## proofer

Here are my poor spiral plants that I've described before in this thread. We had a good rain the other day, and we're due another rainfall tomorrow. If it's not a spider mite problem, maybe a second rain will do the trick. See below:


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## agrace

First plant is way dead, nothing is going to save it. the second one is questionable. By the way Cedars have a bit of browning on the inside of the plant during the winter and then green up in the spring. That being said. If the branches are dying off from the outside in they will usually finsh dying and there is nothing you can do.
Pull the one dead plant out and take it back to the nursery or any nursery and ask their opinion on what is happening.


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## downunder

Agrace
Note that these are junipers, not cedars.

Proofer,
One thing I do when I lose plants is to try to investigate the site conditions. In the photos I posted, I planted the azaleas in front. I DID NOT plant the larger shrubs, which are cryptomeria. I did loose one of the azaleas. They had been bought late season and were pot-bound. The one that died had never put the first new root out. Yes, I do break up rootballs. 

The following is my procedure.
1. On those that you are sure are completely dead (Check by bending the stem and scratching under the bark. If it's completely dead, you will know.), start by raking back whatever mulch material you have and look at the surface of the soil and in the mulch itself. May not tell you much in this instance but sometimes you may find something telltale here. Bugs, stem virus, planted too deep or shallow, etc.
2. Poke around in the top inch or two of soil. BEFORE #3.
3. Gently PULL the plant from the planting hole. Especially if it was recently planted, you should be able to remove it with the rootball and the planting hole still intact. Try not to disturb the rootball or the hole.
War story- Planted some plants on hardpan with no drainage at all one time. There was a water table about 6-8 inches below the surface and water filled the hole- just plain ran in the side of the hole like a garden hose had been buried there and turned on.
In this instance the plant had simply drowned. Not from overwatering, but drowned none-the-less.
Or, the bottom of the hole may be completely dry, as I suspect yours is.
Or, there may be air pockets if the dirt (soil, for the fancy) wasn't packed properly. Sides of the planting hole may look like swiss cheese.
Or, you find an insect problem.
Or, ...
Check the rootball. What does it look and smell like? Is it black and does it smell rotten? Any sign that new roots had started? Had life started at all or had something happened?


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## proofer

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I think I'll keep watering and just patiently wait, trying to bring that first spiral juniper (picture #1) back to life. I have about 5 other spiral junipers that look like that in picture #2. The rest of my spirals look just fine. 

Now my replanted hostas aren't doing so well (they looked great initially). I'm now wondering if something was in the red lava rock that's at the base of all these plants. And then there's another type of plant (similar to a hosta) that looks really great, but I sure don't know what type of plant it is. With my luck, it's probably just a weed!


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## proofer

OK. It's been almost a year since my last post, but I wanted to give you a status update in case anyone else has this particular problem. My decorative junipers have been hit again. About half of them are turning brown, inside out. We've had lots of rain here in Cincinnati during the springtime (every day or every other day for about 3 weeks), so I was guessing that these junipers just had too much rain. I did the "white paper" test and didn't see any tiny red spider mites. But I did give it the Malathion treatment twice so far (2 weeks apart), with the third treatment due in a few days. Someone at a landscaping nursery said to give it 3 treatments, 2 weeks apart, and shoot towards the inside. Well, they seem to be coming back to life (most of them, anyway). They're still brown on the inside, but the tips are green, so it seems like it's taking on new growth on those brown branches. Since these junipers don't get bushy or have heavy growth, I'm sure the brown will always show, but at least there's green on the outside.


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## downunder

> We've had lots of rain here in Cincinnati during the springtime (every day or every other day for about 3 weeks), so I was guessing that these junipers just had too much rain.


Spider mites are a problem in hot, dry weather, i.e. July and August.

Possibly, the extra rain could have caused root rot, especially if you have poor drainage. Looks a lot like something that hasn't been watered. The problem here though is that the plant can't take up the water, which in the end still equals no water to the plant above ground. Just a guess.


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## proofer

Yes, I heard that if these junipers were planted in such a way that the rain water just sat pooled at the base, then that would be a problem. Another issue is that they were planted in clay---not soil. Although these plants were underneath the soffits and didn't get the full drench of rain, they initially had that dip at the center. I've added soil and built up the base so water would drain away instead of sitting in the middle. So I'm not sure what is bringing them back to life---the 2 applications of Malathion, or the adding of soil to the very center of the base. They don't look the best, but at least there's a touch of green on the tips now.


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## downunder

> Although these plants were underneath the soffits and didn't get the full drench of rain, they initially had that dip at the center.


Two years ago I dug up a gardenia and gave it to a neighbor. It struggled a little the first year but was holding its own. With all the rain we had this past spring, it and a rose bush died. They were about 6-8 feet from the corner of the house and she tells me that it stayed pretty wet there for several weeks.

Anything is possible with pests, but I REALLY DOUBT that you had spider mites a couple of months ago. Please search for further spider mite info. You could have had some other pest in there, or it could have been a water issue.

My apology in advance for maybe sounding condescending, but please don't go about just spraying wholesale unless you are really sure what the pest is. If you don't know this, bugs (and diseases) can adapt and become immune to treatments applied improperly. This is why new products are being continually developed and why rotating treatments is often recommended.
PS- Have you read the label on the Malathion for spider mite treatment?

Master Gardener 
Ga Certified Landscape Professional
Commercial Pesticide Applicator


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## proofer

PS- Have you read the label on the Malathion for spider mite treatment?

Yes, I read the label over and over. That was the reason for my post last year. All it said as far as directions was "use as needed." And never having used it before, I had no idea what they were talking about---daily, weekly, monthly, what? I just wanted to try anything to save these expensive decorative plants from dying. At $80 a pop (and having a lot of these planted around the house), I hated to see them dying and not trying anything.

So although it sounds like it was not spider mites after all (since they were dying during a very wet spring season), I think changing the base from a pooling/puddling base to a drain-off base, I think that's what is bringing them back to life.


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## downunder

I looked on my bottle of malathion but the label pages are stuck together.

Went to this site:
http://www.pbigordon.com/pdfs/Malathion50Spray-SL.pdf

found this info for flowers, ornamentals, and shrubs:
"Apply in summertime when infestation occurs. Repeat in 10 to 12 days."

Most of the sections do say to apply as needed, but I have found that you have to be careful and look at the information in the specific box that you need. Sometimes they will have different instructions for different crops. 

For example, if I have a problem with aphids I spray and then watch for a good kill over the next couple of days. I may repeat in 4 or 5 days. But they are soft bodied and if the application was accurate, it will be readily effective.

Sometimes I get a little long-winded and in trying to be concise I leave things out. A couple of other points:

Although Malathion is labeled for use on spider mites, it is an insecticide. Mites are arachnoids (spider family). It is generally preferred to use a "miticide" for spider mites. A good first try is a very hard hosing. Seriously. Not like you are watering for irrigation, but like using a water canon on rioters. They won't like it, get mad, and leave.

There are several fungi that attack junipers. One is called "juniper twig blight" for instance. These usually occur during extended rainy weather or from improper watering. More specifically, the problem comes from the foliage staying too wet. The solution generally is to cut out the affected parts and make sure that the good foliage stays as dry as possible. Proper spacing at planting is important.

There I go getting verbose again. But I understand your investment, and I hope you understand that I am trying to help cover most of the bases.


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## Kap

I used malathion on some ti plants here, and it melted (best description) the leaves.


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## proofer

_"There are several fungi that attack junipers. One is called "juniper twig blight" for instance. These usually occur during extended rainy weather or from improper watering. More specifically, the problem comes from the foliage staying too wet. The solution generally is to cut out the affected parts and make sure that the good foliage stays as dry as possible."_ 

This might be the issue! Here's 2 pictures of what's happening with my juniper bushes:

Never mind. When I click on the icon above for "insert image," it just gives a "whoop" sound for me. I've got to figure it out first and then post it.


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## proofer

Here's what they look like. They're brown on the inside, but if I shake the plant, it will be bare on the inside. At least the tips are coming back to life on some of them.


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## downunder

Just for reading
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/dp_hfrr/extensn/problems/cercospa.htm

http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/FactSheets/junipertipblight/juniper.htm

Several types of juniper blight.


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## Lali

'proofer' - Browning is a common problem. Chances are your junipers are not doing well primarily because they were transplanted in mid-summer, most appropriate time is fall or early winter, as suggested by 'downunder'. My first recommendation would be to prune off the dead tops, secondly avoid 'overhead' watering, thirdly spray with a mixture of 2 Tbsp. of liquid dish soap in 1 gal. of water (good call 'agrace'!) rather than chemicals to rid tree of ANY bugs or fungus. Where & when did you transplant hostas that aren't doing too well? They flourish best in shade or partial shade.
'downunder' - Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your azaleas appear to be planted in full sun; they prefer to be in partial to full shade. If in full sun, they can be attacked by lace bugs (causes gray splotches), which is a good possibility why you lost the first one. If this is the case, use same environment friendly soap mixture described above. Otherwise transplant them to a shady location & if that's not possible, try staggering something taller between them to give them more shade. Also - nice tip on spider mites (paper trick; we must have the same book!:thumbup; giving them a spray/blast 3 days in a row will also encourage natural predators. Another remedy for spider mites: buttermilk spray - combine 1/2 cup buttermilk, 3 1/2 cups wheat flour and 5 gallons water & apply to undersides of leaves or directly on infested branches of shrub/tree.
Oh, & I'd be pruning that dead stuff off your trees, looks nasty.:wink:


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## downunder

> 'downunder' - Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your azaleas appear to be planted in full sun; they prefer to be in partial to full shade. If in full sun, they can be attacked by lace bugs (causes gray splotches), which is a good possibility why you lost the first one.


Lali- You are forgiven.

Point 1. 
Siting and planting:
Those azaleas are indeed planted in full sun. One of twenty died because:
A: They were rootbound at the nursery too long.
B: They were not watered properly (because they were inside a locked fence- thanks to Homeland Security- at the local water department.

Point 2.
Lacebugs:
Absolutely not. Could you cite your source for the "full sun" and "gray splotches" signs? That has not been my experience. Lacebug damage is very similar to that of spider mites, i.e. the foliage is very yellowed and dark-speckled . My "speckled" looks like overspray from a paint gun. If one turns the leave over, there will be specks of feces from the lacebugs. Not so with spider mites. There is also the timing of the damage. Spider mites are in the heat of the summer. Lacebugs are more cyclical in temperate weather, i.e. April, May, and maybe June. And for what it's worth, ALL of the lacebug damage I have had has been in the part shade conditions that azaleas prefer, in amended soil, and well- watered.

My opinion is from being a Certified Landscape Professional and Commercial Pesticide Applicator (having gardened for fifty years) under the supervision of someone with a BS from UGA and thirty years professional experience combined with the resources of the University of Georgia Cooperative Exension Service.


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## Lali

Posted a lengthy reply 'downunder', but has yet to appear. Contacted DIY. If it doesn't show up later, I'll redo it minana!


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## Lali

Just wasted another hour responding to 'downunder' & it does not display!!! :furious: And yes, I was logged in! Will let diy know again! And will try again tomorrow!


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## Lali

I am ready to scream!!! :icon_mad: My reply keeps disappearing! If at first you don't succeed; try & try again!!!!!!! Will do it again tomorrow!


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## Lali

Thanx for the forgiveness. Once more, with feeling!



> Those azaleas are indeed planted in full sun.


Source #1 - Gardening Secrets, Reader's Digest states: "Grow azaleas and rhododendrons near large shade trees or mix them with other shrubs in foundation plantings."

Source #2 - Complete Home Gardening, Margot Schubert states: "It is advisable to be rather careful where you plant azaleas. They do not like a lot of bright sunshine on their bare branches towards the end of winter and they suffer in exposed, windy situations."



> Could you cite your source for the "full sun" and "gray splotches" signs?


Know you only asked for this source, just figured I'd give you the others.

Source #3 - Gardening Made Easy, International Masters Publishers states: "Azaleas prefer to be out of full sun. In hot summer areas, plant in the shade, under trees or in a shady border, to avoid scorching." Also: "Azaleas growing in full sun may be attacked by lace bugs. These 1/8 in. long pests suck the sap from the shrubs' foliage, causing gray splotches to appear. At first sign of damage, spray tops and bottoms of leaves with insecticidal soap."

Even though your azalea was lost due to the possibility of being root bound or lack of sufficient watering, I would still suggest moving your babies or planting something in between them that will provide them with some shade.



> My opinion is from being a Certified Landscape Professional and Commercial Pesticide Applicator (having gardened for fifty years) under the supervision of someone with a BS from UGA and thirty years professional experience combined with the resources of the University of Georgia Cooperative Exension Service.


My opinion comes from being a gardener for fifty years, as well, (since I was knee-high to a grasshopper!) under the strict supervision of four gruelling grandparents & two persnickety parents, :laughing: (which I'm certain can equate to one person with a BS). Not to undermine your success, position or capability; I have seen evidence of this in several of your posts. BTW - you're a riot! I, too, hold a degree, just not in horticulture.
The majority of my 'work' has been voluntary; helping family, friends & neighbors designing, creating, digging, planting & tending gardens. Among a few of my thousands of 'clients': The Salvation Army & several churches. I am but a mere & humble servant of the Lord with an extreme passion for 'earth' & a sincere desire to lend assistance to whomever crosses my path with whatever experience, knowledge & wisdom that I possess. After all, isn't that what we're all here for? To live, learn & share.

Please, take no offense & no hard feelings! God Bless y'all.


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## downunder

> I am but a mere & humble servant of the Lord with an extreme passion for 'earth' & a sincere desire to lend assistance to whomever crosses my path with whatever experience, knowledge & wisdom that I possess. After all, isn't that what we're all here for? To live, learn & share.


Which is exactly why I retired from one job and took 1/2 pay cut. Now I get to have days on my knees digging in the dirt and being constantly in awe of the wonderful creation around me. A job that often truly is a "walk in the park." Simply driving (or walking) past a flower bed does not allow one the experience of holding a single flower up close to admire the intricacy of a Supreme design. And sharing it with others. Everyone should try that. 

BTW- I hate to throw a perfectly good plant away at season's end but commercial pragmatism mandates doing so. But if someone happens to be walking past I have the priviledge of unexpectedly sharing a quickly put together bouquet while planting 50 or 100 more plants for yet another opportunity.


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## Lali

> the experience of holding a single flower up close to admire the intricacy of a Supreme design. And sharing it with others. Everyone should try that.


Good answer! This is one of the ultimate pleasures in life.



> BTW- I hate to throw a perfectly good plant away at season's end but commercial pragmatism mandates doing so.


It bothers me to have to toss plants, but console myself with the fact that they are going back to the earth...



> ...if someone happens to be walking past I have the priviledge of unexpectedly sharing a quickly put together bouquet...


Nice...romantic!:thumbup:


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