# Zinsser 123 primer coming off



## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

Hi, I'm currently remodeling our new home built in the 70's. It has stained wood trim and stained solid wood doors throughout the house. I wanted to rip it all out and put new primed trim and doors and paint everything white. The wife wants to save money so we went ahead and bought the Zinsser 123 primer. Now I have researched, watched every video out there showing how everyone is sanding first. However this product says it adheres to any surface without the need of sanding. I even did try sanding (180 grit) and the blocks and paper clog imediately. After 4hrs of time have gone by, after applying 2 coats of the primer. The primer scratches so easily when I tested it scratching with my thumb nail. Did I get a bad batch? Is this stuff over hyped and not as good as claimed to be? I don't know if I just wasted hours of my time putting this stuff on or if I should continue using it to finish the house if it just scratches off so easily exposing the stained wood.


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## CyrusR (Mar 16, 2015)

4 hours isn't a lot of time for the primer to develop maximum adhesion, and acrylic ("latex") paints and primers can take a month to cure, so I would not expect much out of it so soon. That said, I would still clean and sand the trim before priming. And you don't need two coats of 1-2-3, either. 

Is there anything clear over the stained wood, like polyurethane?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

The specs give 7 days for full adhesion. 

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...EY123-03_Bulls_Eye_1_2_3_Plus_Primer_TDS.ashx

The 123 is great stuff, but no matter what the label says skipping the sanding step is always risky. 


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## XC Painter (Jun 10, 2017)

Some things to check: Surface sanded and vacuumed clean, primer stirred well, primer put on somewhat thin coats, 2 to 4 hours between coats.
Also if you have any wood polish or wax on the surface, that's why your paper clogged and you might have an adhesion problem. 4 hours may be too soon to tell, but you'll know when the adhesion is poor...
Going over lacquer clear coats is going to be a problem for that primer too, I would think....so it matters what is on that wood trim.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

As already mentioned, it sounds like there was wax or something on there. It needs to be cleaned well first. Then ONE coat of primer will most likely be fine(after it cures). Personally, I would still scruff it up a little first


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## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

CyrusR said:


> 4 hours isn't a lot of time for the primer to develop maximum adhesion, and acrylic ("latex") paints and primers can take a month to cure, so I would not expect much out of it so soon. That said, I would still clean and sand the trim before priming. And you don't need two coats of 1-2-3, either.
> 
> Is there anything clear over the stained wood, like polyurethane?





My wife had scrubbed the trim and doors with TSP. It's hard to tell if any finish was done over the stained wood. I did notice a little bit of what looks like polyurethane around the panel edges of the door. With just the one coat it bleeds through big time. After the 2nd coat it was hiding the dark stain much more nicely.


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## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

chrisn said:


> As already mentioned, it sounds like there was wax or something on there. It needs to be cleaned well first. Then ONE coat of primer will most likely be fine(after it cures). Personally, I would still scruff it up a little first



The wife had scrubbed everything with TSP before the priming. I will go ahead and retry sanding but that'll probably be a nightmare and a lot of money going through a lot of it. Like you are saying, there must be something on the trim because the sand paper junks up immediately and becomes useless. Plus one coat was bleeding through big time. 2nd coat was hiding it so much better.


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## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

The 123 is great stuff, but no matter what the label says skipping the sanding step is always risky. 


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I'm thinking so too now


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## mark sr (Jun 13, 2017)

Did the TSP get rinsed well? it's residue can create adhesion issues for any coating applied over it. Personally I always sand and use a solvent based primer over varnish/poly.


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## wptski (Sep 19, 2008)

Bear10 said:


> My wife had scrubbed the trim and doors with TSP. It's hard to tell if any finish was done over the stained wood. I did notice a little bit of what looks like polyurethane around the panel edges of the door. With just the one coat it bleeds through big time. After the 2nd coat it was hiding the dark stain much more nicely.


The TDS states not to use TSP. I've used it on exterior where it could be rinse with a garden hose.

One can use DirtEx as no rinsing required but it doesn't etch the surface as TSP does.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yeah, the TSP is your problem. Try rinsing again extra thoroughly and do another test.

TSP residue is hard to remove without a pressure washer or at least a hose and can easily cause adhesion problems. 

I imagine that's why Zinsser specifically says not to use it with the 123. 


BTW, the TDS I linked about is the wrong one. 

https://muralroutes.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Utility-Box-Murals-Tech-Sheet-Zinzer-123.pdf


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## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

Soooooo......I've primed 2 door jambs, some trim already. I should scrape it all off and clean, sand and clean it again?
Not with TSP again though.


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## klaatu (Mar 9, 2015)

News flash! let it cure for a month, a year, whatever and that crap will still scrape off! 123 has been so badly cheapened so they can sell it at the box stores for $16.00 a gallon that it isn't half the quality it was even 10 years ago. And this info is coming from a 30+ year Zinsser employee. Ask yourself, of all of the products they sell at the box stores, how does this product and the Kilz products still have the SAME RETAIL PRICE they had twenty years ago? Every other single product you can buy has gone up significantly in price in the last twenty years, so how can they sell 123 for the EXACT SAME PRICE the box stores were selling it for in 1997? IT"S CRAP THAT'S HOW!


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## Bear10 (Jul 3, 2017)

Ok, after further evaluation of the trim in much better lighting. There appears to be a finish on it. Poly, lacquer, varnish, idk? I called the company and told them what I experienced. That my wood has a finish on it as well. The guy on the phone says and assures me that after 7 days, it'll be hardened and adhered and will not scratch off. Even to a polyurethane finish for example. He said it is made to go on glass and will not come off after 7 days of curing. Also assured I absolutely do not need to sand first at all. I know some have mentioned the 7 days to adhere on here too. Thanks for everyone's inputt on the situation.


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## MarkCHI (Apr 11, 2021)

klaatu said:


> News flash! let it cure for a month, a year, whatever and that crap will still scrape off! 123 has been so badly cheapened so they can sell it at the box stores for $16.00 a gallon that it isn't half the quality it was even 10 years ago. And this info is coming from a 30+ year Zinsser employee. Ask yourself, of all of the products they sell at the box stores, how does this product and the Kilz products still have the SAME RETAIL PRICE they had twenty years ago? Every other single product you can buy has gone up significantly in price in the last twenty years, so how can they sell 123 for the EXACT SAME PRICE the box stores were selling it for in 1997? IT"S CRAP THAT'S HOW!


thanks for the info. What’s a good water based primer these days? Painting oak plywood and finishing with chalk paint

thnaka

mark


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## Meph (Jun 16, 2021)

Hi, So does this mean you can't/shouldn't apply any top coats till after the 7/10 day curing proses is complete?


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## woodco (Jun 11, 2017)

Meph said:


> Hi, So does this mean you can't/shouldn't apply any top coats till after the 7/10 day curing proses is complete?


No. You dont need to wait that long. Basically, the OP should have used an oil or had contaminants on the wood.


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## lazzlazz (Mar 29, 2010)

klaatu said:


> News flash! let it cure for a month, a year, whatever and that crap will still scrape off! 123 has been so badly cheapened so they can sell it at the box stores for $16.00 a gallon that it isn't half the quality it was even 10 years ago. And this info is coming from a 30+ year Zinsser employee. Ask yourself, of all of the products they sell at the box stores, how does this product and the Kilz products still have the SAME RETAIL PRICE they had twenty years ago? Every other single product you can buy has gone up significantly in price in the last twenty years, so how can they sell 123 for the EXACT SAME PRICE the box stores were selling it for in 1997? IT"S CRAP THAT'S HOW!


Thanks for the info. I just bought a gallon of Zinsser 1 2 3, thinking it was a better primer. It seems pretty watery (it was shaken well in store right before I used it).


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## quatsch (Feb 4, 2021)

Now I'm surprised that anything I primed actually stuck.


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## b.rooster4321 (Apr 22, 2020)

I bought a quart of Zinzer 1 23 months ago shaking at the store and it was thick I mean like yogurt


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