# is this bad tiling or am I being fusy???



## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Just for clarification Rodger are those slate? and what size are the ones in the shower stall? What did he do in re waterproofing? What is that haze rubbed over the tiles is that grout???

At first glance, seeing the size of the tiles, I would refuse to accept this tile job. Sounds like he should have used a tilesetter. His mortar bed is variable, giving variations in trueness to the wall - to name just one possibility.


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

Photos 8310 and 8312:
I don't see anything to complain about there. You want a gap between the tiles so that the grout will well stick in the corners. The fact that the gap isn't uniformly wide isn't a problem cuz he'll be doing this corner joint with his finger so the grout joint itself can look to be of uniform width even though the gap the grout is anchored in isn't of uniform width.

photos 8313 and 8317:
Do those chrome pieces come off? I'd ask him what he's planning to do there. It certainly wouldn't be a good idea to grout around those chrome plated covers because I suspect you'll need to remove those in order to repair the faucet.
If I was him, I would remove those covers and use silicon caulk around the faucet body, and grout the tile joints. Then install the faucet handle covers after the grouting and sealing has been done.

photo 8319:
Is that horizontal grout joint 1/2 inch wide? Wow. How wide are the other horizontal and vertical grout joints. Is this horizontal grout joint significantly wider than the others? Is he cutting the tile to size himself on that wet diamond saw?
Wall tiles do vary a tiny bit in size. I've had to install tile spacers in different ways to accomodate this. However, that looks like an extremely wide grout joint to me, and the only explanation I can think of is that his tiles aren't of uniform size.

Photo 8309:
The gap between the bottom pair of tiles is a little to tight for my liking. If that gap is too small, then with glazed wall tiles at least, the grout will fall out of the corner. Maybe the grout will stick better in the corners because you're not using glazed wall tiles. The pair of tiles above it looks OK in my view.
I wouldn't be concerned that the gap between the tiles on each wall aren't uniform in size. He's going to be shaping that corner grout joint with his finger anyway, so the way it looks will depend on how he shapes it. With the rest of the field tiles on the flat walls, then the width of the gap between tiles will be the width of the grout joint. But, in the corners he'll be wiping down the joint with his fingers and he can easily get a uniform width of grout in the corners even if the gap behind that grout joint isn't uniform in width.


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

*Rough job*

For 700BP=$1400.00USD (aprox) he started off to cheap that should have clued you in, this shower should pay at least 1000BP+ 

No Kerdi? Tsk tsk....

On a scale of 1-10 I would give this a 4 .

On hard tile to work with I give it an 8.

Hard tile to work with, lack of experience, these two combined will give you a job like this.
It is acceptable to some standards, not acceptable at by others.

If it is slate you will have lippage problem.If it is porcelian it should not be that bad unless you wall is really bowed. No excuse for the cuts around the fixtures. Redo!

Bud Cline would tell you you to rip it out and restart, he has no patience for this kind of work.


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

They got screwed!

That's terrible workmanship even given the type of tile it is.

Look at the mismatches and over-cuts at the valve handle. Shoddy pitiful workmanship if you ask me. The whole thing needs to be torn out and redone.

The good thing is he is only charging half of what the job is worth but I wouldn't give him another dime.

There 26...are ya happy now?


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

Watta I tell ya!


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

Yow I'm fairly predictable.


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

How do _you _feel about the results after spending £850?

Sorry. I'm with Bud on this one. It's terrible work. I don't care what kind of tile it is. A qualified installer should be able to set any tile. 

Redo time!


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yuck.


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

Thank you so much for all of your replies!

The tiles are porcelian and are 300mm x 600mm and the walls were new stud walls that he put up and plastered and he was using a wet diamond saw. I have no idea what he used for waterproofing.

It's good to know that it is not just us being picky and it is a bit shody! (well, not that good, I'd rather it was great!

we have shown the work to some family and friends and most have said "well, it's not that bad but it's not that great either" which is not the response we are after for a brand new install from scratch!

He has since said that we should get somebody else in to finish it and give him £400 for the work he has done!


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

You are being very polite about this.
(Leave it to the English to be polite in a case like this.)

On our side of the pond 1/2 half of the population would have never noticed, the other half would have required a full redo.

If you are so inclined to keep it as is I would suggest paying him but keep it on your terms, not his. 
I would knock another 100 off so he learns the lesson to stay out of the tile industry and we tile setters will stay out of the plumbing.
Any tile setter worth his salt that comes after him will gripe about it until it is done.
His actions on this to date, will create setting problems in continuance until completion.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree with 26yrs; however, as the consumer, you have a right to expect a job done to minimum standards and, at least in my opinion, this job doesn't meet many. Yes, it might be acceptable to some but I would think most people would enter into a relationship with an installer expecting better since he is the supposed 'professional'. Pricing is no excuse because comparison of price A is impossible with Price B unless you know the difference between the two.

That dilemma is normally taken care of by getting several quotes and checking references. But that's water under the bridge now; at this point you are stuck with what most of us think is a re-do i.e tearing the whole thing down right back to the studs, squaring the whole room up, putting up new walls, waterproofing, putting up new tiles and replacing the fixtures - assuming the plumbing is OK. _That's_ going to cost you money that you would not have had to fork out had the job be set out properly in the first place. So basically you are spending twice for the tear-down and the replacement tiles, everything else you haven't bought yet, so to speak. 

So you're taking a loss. Your guy should assume a loss too...


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## Bud Cline (Mar 12, 2006)

How does anyone know the underlying work and waterproofing isn't as shoddy as what's on the surface. It is - trust me!

You pay now, the shower leaks in a few weeks, then where are you?

Don't pay another dime. If you just have to pay the guy then wait six months to see if anything comes up with the quality of the other areas of the shower. It will.

How is the floor constructed, what waterproofs it?
How are the walls constructed, what makes them shower walls?

YOU need to learn more about what it is he has done in this case and he needs to be willing to exp[lain every detail.

Now he wants to bail-out and leave someone else to deal with it???

DON'T PAY HIM!!!:no:


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

Believe me, I have been using plenty of F and C words! I just left them out as I did not want to get banned on my first post! 

I think we are just going to get a pro in to see if he can salvage it. The uncut tiles seem fine it's just 3 of the 4 corners of the room that are bad (we have a door in the other corner).

I have a feeling that he got a helper in to cut a batch load of tiles rather than cutting each one to size and then just put them up hoping that we would not complain! (we did see a stack of what looked like to be pre cut tiles)

It's really annoying because I was going to buy some books, take 2 weeks of work and try to do it myself, then I thought nahhhh, I want it to be perfect, I'll just pay the money and get a pro to do it...... If only I had got a pro!

Thanks so much for all your help chaps!


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

We are not having a shower. We are just having a free standing bath, sink and toilet. We are planning a wetroom in our cellar which he will not be doing!


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

Heed Bud's words. *What you don't see is more important that what you do see.* Chances are if the finished work is this bad, the substructure may be inferior and there's most likely no waterproofing. 
Putting bandages on it at this point does no good either. A _qualified_ person needs to examine what's happened underneath to determine how much needs to be redone. Regardless of how much you paid to this point, if you don't fix ALL of the potential problems, a cosmetic fix will still bite you in the arse later.

BTW, since it's porcelain and not slate....it's even worse then I originally thought! :furious:


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

The flooring is marine ply coated with PVA. We then put down our under floor heating and he then tiled on top.

I might just pay him in photocopied money and say 'here is some shabby money for a shabby job!'


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

angus242 said:


> Heed Bud's words. *What you don't see is more important that what you do see.*


I have taken step by step pictures of the work carried out and as far as I can tell it has been:-

WALLS - Plasterboard > plaster > tile adhesive > tiles

FLOOR - Marine Ply > some kind of PVA > tile adhesive > tiles

Is this right?


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

_Tile adhesive_? Many of us here don't like tile adhesive, what some call 'mastic' because of the way it dries: by evaporation of the carrier solvent leaving behind a polymerized film. 

It's an organic emulsion as it comes in the pail, and is not recommended in wet areas because the emulsion even if fully cured with revert back to the components of the emulsion: carrier+polymer giving you a gooey mess that doesn't hold anything. So mastic is out except for walls maybe. But given the disadvantages most of us prefer thinset mortar.

So in the walls, where's the waterproofing? what stops the water even if it's over a bathtub - from penetrating behind the tiles and growing moldy? Ditto for the floor.

What's PVA? "Polyvinyl alcohol" in my books - but then I don't read the same books as many... :huh:

Some might also recommend a "floor deflection" test to see whether or not your floor joists are stiff enough not to give you cracking of the tiles, along the grout lines sometimes, in due course. But if it's a 6x6 room there may not be a need. We like having 1.25" - 1.625" thick floors too depending on what tile you put down. But that's another issue.


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## rodger_j (Jul 14, 2008)

This is the PVA that he coated the floor with:-

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/n...refview=search&ts=1216134698092&isSearch=true

I've got a headache!


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## angus242 (May 1, 2008)

I don't understand the use of the PVA. I now too have a headache.

However, I'd like to know more about one of their other products;Evo-Stik Sticks Like Sh*t sealant :thumbsup:


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Well, I was close with 'polyvinyl alcohol' as I can't see anywhere on Bostik website the exact definition of that term but it doesn't really matter anyway. To me and I may be wrong it is a PVA adhesive or what we call a mastic, organic adhesive that dries by evaporation. Not the product we would use, but permissible in certain circumstances - no matter what the company advertizing says...

I mean there's nothing wrong with mastics for the DIY'er but pros use cement. The last thing after all that a pro wants is a recall from you in a year complaining about mold and/or leaking issues.

But I don't know what the British codes say...so I won't comment on the suitability of the use of PVA in bathrooms. Let the next pro who does it use what he can warranty using the appropriate code over there.

But to me it is a "waterproof" acrylic or PVA mastic.


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## 26yrsinflooring (Jul 1, 2008)

I wondered about that when I saw the vent on the floor the confusion was the wall faucets, very european......


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## daxinarian (Jul 9, 2008)

I would bring in a pro to quote the redo. Ask him to do the quote with a seperate price for tearout of the bad (assuming he has to tear out). Then deduct the tearout cost from what he says you owe. If he screwed it up and you have to pay someone extra to fix it, then he should pay for that.


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