# Schedule 40 PVC in Chicago?



## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

The seperate ground wire is not allowed by anyone's standards. All conductors for a circuit have to be in the same raceway.

As far as PVC vs. EMT *in Chicago*...who the hell knows...I sure don't...someone that does will be along later though.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

I think he meant adding new ground wire along with the existing conductors when he pulls them into the new conduit. Presumably the EMT was being used as the EGC.


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## franwalker (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah, sorry for the confusion: I plan to pull a ground wire along with my new conductors in my new pipe. I just need to know if I can use PVC in Chicago.


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## bob22 (May 28, 2008)

Why not just call the Building Inspector dept at City Hall and ask?
Quick read of their building code:
"
*







18-27-300.37 Aboveground wiring methods.*

Aboveground conductors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, in intermediate metal conduit, in electrical metallic tubing, or as busways. In locations accessible to qualified persons only, open runs of Type MV cables, bare conductors, and bare busbars shall also be permitted. Busbars shall be permitted to be either copper or aluminum.
(Added Coun. J. 11-3-99, p. 13842, § 5)"


I don't see PVC in that but code interpretation is very complicated and there may be another citation that allows it. Need an official ruling or perhaps a Chicago electrician will weigh in.


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## rjgogo (Nov 12, 2008)

When I lived there you could not and that was only a few years ago. 

You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits. 

Everything needs to be in EMT or short greenfield whips unless things have changed which I highly doubt.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

rjgogo said:


> You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an *UNION* electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits.


I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!


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## rjgogo (Nov 12, 2008)

Msradell said:


> I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!


You are correct sir, and frankly that is what I meant to say. Union protection is what it is all about, it was not long ago that they allowed PVC DWV pipes and that is pretty limited


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

rjgogo said:


> When I lived there you could not and that was only a few years ago.
> 
> You are not even supposed to change out an outlet without a permit and that has to be signed by an electrician, given that, there is a lot of stuff that gets done without permits.
> 
> Everything needs to be in EMT or short greenfield whips unless things have changed which I highly doubt.





Msradell said:


> I corrected your post to show the real cause of the problems!


With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.

The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.

Any electrical work done, has to fall back onto an Electricians License, without an Electrician to sign off that the work is good, and complient, means there is no one in any legal position to say "Yes, this electrical circuit is installed to spec, is properly functional, and meets NEC and Fire Code regulations for installation, and if for any reason a fire results of this work, or someone gets electricuted, I will sign my butt onto a golden platter for buffalo bill when I go to prison for saying it was a good job when it wasn't". 

THAT is why they require an Electrician to sign off on it. Even on a Maintenance Team, even though everyone on a Maintenance Team will be competent enough to install outlets, recepticles, light fixtures, light bulbs, ovens, water heaters, etc. They always have a Licensed Electrician, and a Licensed Plumber, and a Licensed HVAC-R Tech as Subject Matter Experts to teach/inspect/sign off on work that has been done.

It's the Maintenance Teams way of saying yes, we are doing the job right, and we have XXXXXX to confirm we did the job right. 

All Plumbing Work must be either done, or inspected by a Plumber, and all Electrical work has to be either done, or inspected by a Licensed Electrician, and any Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration work has to be done, or inspected by a Licensed HVAC-R Technician. 

Because they want a license to follow, and they one someones behind if something goes wrong. It's why an Apprentice works under a Journeymans License. The Journeyman is ultimately responsible for all work that is done. That is because that man/woman's license is the legal document that states if the work is done right or not.

Which if it's a private homeowner, if that homeowner touches ANYTHING in the home, that homeowner is 100% liable for any/all damages or medical expenses that occur from doing said work. That's why you have homeowners insurance. 

It's also why permits are required for almost everything, because it creates a paper trail that work was done, with the type of work, and extent of the project listed on the paper. 

And a lot of city's/towns/county's want Licensed Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC-R Techs etc. to sign off on stuff, so they know its code compliant. Because of suburbs like those you'll see in Seattle, you screw up an outlet job in a condo, you'll take out 5 - 10 other Residences. Even move on to other houses or buildings beside it. 

Just in California a few years ago, it was a bad install on a light fixture that caused 7 houses to burn down, because the fire spread from one house to another because of proximity, all caused because of a bad wiring job.

THAT is what the Tradesman's signature is for. If it turns out to be a bad job, per the NEC, Electricians are 100% liable for EVERYTHING that happens if their wiring job wasn't too code, or if anyform of electrical issue occurs taht creates damage/expenses.

It's all about liability. And also, many city/town/counties, don't trust the home owner to know jack squat about anything. Because of "Red Neck fixes" you come across all the time of people "winging it", it's why you have so much paperwork. Even to do a few PMs, you need a papertrail to confirm it was done to cover your backside. And to cover your Employers backside, or in a homeowners case, the homeowners backside.

Unions have absolutely nothing in anyway to do with any of it. It's the Lawyers who want quick cash on the go that have to do with it.

That said, PVC, and CPVC, and ABS are all still DWVs. PEX is not rated as DWV, and Copper is simply far too expensive to use as a DWV.

EDIT:

Regarding PVC, PVC i've seen used a lot as conduit, because it's non-conductive. Around some fuel lines you'll see PVC conduit for electrical wiring. You'll also find a lot of PVC Conduit in Schools, and large commercial buildings. Walmart in Arlington, WA for instance, uses both PVC and aluminum conduits, for the main connections from the breakers they'll use the aluminum conduit, then after a few feet (10-20 or so) they'll switch it to PVC.

You will also see a lot of PVC for underground cables for both residential, and commerical. (at least I've seen quite a bit of it so far) PVC is very favorable, because unlike the metal conduits, you can put PVC Tubing into a "heater" and create bends and angles into it, and use a single length of pipe for 20 feet at a time with multiple angles, instead of using 2-30 different pipes and fittings. 

Costco Everett has nothing but PVC Conduit everywhere last time I was there. 

As far as Residential goes, only place I've seen PVC Conduit was to protect underground wiring, not above ground wiring, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER!!!

You need to check with local code


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## rjgogo (Nov 12, 2008)

Have you ever lived or spent any measurable time in Chicago. If you had you would know that the city has a history of corruption and pandering. 

Google McCormick place and look at how business has been lost there due to crazy union rules. It used to be you could not plug in an electric cord to a socket when you exhibited there. It had to be done by a union electrician. Those rules have started to ease but many are still there. 

I'm okay with Unions but Chicago has taken to the next level. 

A good joke about it is how many teamsters does it take to change a light bulb, Five, you got a problem with that?


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.
> 
> The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.
> 
> ...


Come to omaha ne and tell me the plumbers union local 16 has nothing to do with writing plumbing codes!:whistling2: :laughing:


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## Beepster (Oct 19, 2009)

Geez, I wonder which one of the above posters is in a union...:whistling2:

B


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

BigGuy01 said:


> With respect, that is highly false. Union has nothing to do with any of it.
> 
> The reason why a city, county, or state legislature would require an electrician sign off on something, is because they want a Journeyman (any Electricain who has been licensed for 3 or more years for residential, or 5 or more years for commercial) to sign off on something, is because they want a license to legally hunt down and beat into a bloody pulp if bad workmanship is found.
> 
> ...


Sir, Your rants are tedious and less than informative Examples:
1. Your above statement in *Bold* about CPVC. CPVC is not rated for DWV nor does it come in sizes that it could be used for such.
2. A previous post about red transfer wires was so much BS.

Your posts are confusing to the average DIYer.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

rjniles said:


> Sir, Your rants are tedious and less than informative Examples:
> 1. Your above statement in *Bold* about CPVC. CPVC is not rated for DWV nor does it come in sizes that it could be used for such.
> 2. A previous post about red transfer wires was so much BS.
> 
> Your posts are confusing to the average DIYer.


I'm actually NOT Union, I just grow tired of people whining about them when they don't even have a clue of how political processes work. I can find NO laws for either Chicago, or Nebraska that have ANYTHING that says "Union" in regards to who can do electrical work etc. 

For the permits for Chicago, it just states a Licensed Journeyman Electrician or above. (which is 5 or more years for commercial, or 3 or more years for residential)

Now, that said, CPVC can be found as large as 6'' ID. CPVC is used in DWV systems in place of iron, steel, or aluminum piping when conditions would normally corrode metal piping, THAT is when CPVC is used, because it will not corrode as much as the metal pipes will. How do I know? I installed 20ft of it several weeks ago connecting a building to a sewer main. 

In fact, if you wanted, and had the money, you can get up to 10'' ID on CPVC for schedule 40 and schedule 60 depending on the thickness you need. Did you know there is also foam-core PVC you can use for a DWV system? DWV is not a pressurized system, hense how the UPC allows the use of CPVC, even foam-core PVC.

And if what I say is confusing to a DIYer, then that DIYer needs more education towards the topic, because they are doing work they shouldn't be doing because they simply don't know enough to do it.

And BTW, CPVC, is STRONGER than PVC, it survives temperatures up to 200 friggen degrees!!! It is used for pressurized, and non pressurized systems, it is even used in high elevations, aircraft (commercial air planes), in the ocean, and for the skyscrapers. Its more fire retardent than PVC is, it's stronger, more flexible, and be applied to any Plumbing system. The fact someone would even say you can't use CPVC when it's encouraged to be used more often than PVC (but cost makes it unrealistic in that regard) and is also used in the NASA SPace Shuttles, and Space Station, with utmost respect, that screams ignorance.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> I'm actually NOT Union, I just grow tired of people whining about them when they don't even have a clue of how political processes work. I can find NO laws for either Chicago, or Nebraska that have ANYTHING that says "Union" in regards to who can do electrical work etc.
> 
> For the permits for Chicago, it just states a Licensed Journeyman Electrician or above. (which is 5 or more years for commercial, or 3 or more years for residential)
> 
> ...


its the local boards!


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Say, I've got a question: Why are we talking about plumbing, anyway?

If the building code snippet posted a while ago doesn't have any listed exceptions, than that's the OP's answer. Or part of it, anyway. Apparently, PVC and other nonmetallic conduit types cannot be used for aboveground wiring in Chicago. Doesn't say anything about underground, though.


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## plummen (Jan 10, 2010)

ive worked all the trades electrical/hvac/plumbing politics is politics in all the trades


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

I hear ya, just trying to see if it's possible to put this thread back on the rails


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

McSteve said:


> Say, I've got a question: Why are we talking about plumbing, anyway?
> 
> If the building code snippet posted a while ago doesn't have any listed exceptions, than that's the OP's answer. Or part of it, anyway. Apparently, PVC and other nonmetallic conduit types cannot be used for aboveground wiring in Chicago. Doesn't say anything about underground, though.


Currently looking that up actually, looking for below ground requirements for wiring residential in Chicago. 

I know in WA it's very, very common.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

For some reason I can't edit my last post? 

Anyways

*ELECTRICAL CODE REGULATION*



*St. Clair County has adopted the 2005 National Electrical Code in its entirety for the unincorporated areas of the county and all communities that have contracted with the county to do their inspections, with the following 10 exceptions:*

*A. **Conductors – Minimum Ampacity and Size.* All power wire shall be 12 AWG and larger. (Article 210-19 NEC 2005)

*B. **Dwelling Unit Receptacles Outlet.* *Four (4) receptacles* per circuit in kitchen. Dining room receptacles shall be on a separate circuit. All major appliances shall be on a dedicated circuit [dishwasher, disposal, microwave, refrigerator, etc.]. Heating and/or cooling unit blowers shall be on a dedicated circuit. (Article 210-52 NEC 2005) Note: All single outlets shall be installed so cords hang down properly.

*C. **Feeder or Service Neutral Load.* Entrance conductors and neutral must be of the same size and rating. (Article 220-61 NEC 2005)

*D. **Maximum Number Of Disconnects.* All dwelling units’ service panels shall have a single main disconnect. On new construction, all service panels shall have *three (3) spaces* for future circuit. No *one-half (½) size *circuit breakers permitted on new construction. (Article 230-71 NEC 2005) Note: Also, workspace shall be maintained and top of main breaker no more than 6’6”.

*E. **Disconnecting Means and Branch-Circuit Protective Equipment*_._ The minimum size service for manufactured homes is 100 Amp. (Article 550-11 NEC 2005)

*F. **Ground Electrode Conductor.* Ground wire shall be in *PVC conduit* from meter socket to ground rod. (Article 250-64B NEC 2005)

*G. **Conductors Material.* Aluminum wire shall not be permitted for dwelling units or manufactured homes. (Article 310-2B NEC 2005)

*H. **Non Metallic Sheathed “NM” (Romex).* Is permitted only in residential or dwelling not commercial buildings. (Article 210 & 215 NEC 2005)

*I. **Manufactured Homes.* All manufactured homes shall be connected from their service disconnect to their panel in approved raceway. (Article 550-10 NEC 2005)

*J. **Smoke Detectors.* All dwelling shall have smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors, they shall be hard wired (110V) with battery backup and interconnected. Smoke detectors shall be located in every bedroom and halls outside of bedroom with in 15’ of the bedroom door and each level of the home. Carbon monoxide detectors shall be within 15’ of every bedroom door. Smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors in security systems will not be acceptable.

However it is a bit outdated.

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t....,cf.osb&fp=dc9072f4d1d34f4c&biw=1688&bih=810

Scroll down to the bottom link, and download the document.

*SERVICE*

*1. *Minimum Dwelling service is 100 amp.
#4 copper is the minimum entrance conductor for 100 amp residence.
2/0 copper is the minimum entrance conductor for 200 amp residence.
*2. *Aluminum wire is not permitted in dwelling units.
*3. *Entrance conductors and neutrals must be the same size and rating.
*4. *Neutrals shall be identified with white tape or white insulation and unbroken from the weather head thru the meter to the panel.
*5. **All service entrance conductors shall be installed in conduit from the meter to the panel. When using PVC conduit it shall have a ground wire in it. There shall be no splices in these conductors.*
*6. **The ground wire from the meter to the ground rod shall be in PVC conduit.*
*7. All PVC conduit shall have the proper size ground wire in it.*
*8. *All service panels must have a single main disconnect. On new construction, panels will have at least three spaces for future circuits.
*9. *Panel boxes shall be mounted with a maximum height of 6 feet 6 inches to the center of the main breaker. A maximum of 42 circuits are allowed in the main panel.
*10. *Panel boxes are not permitted to be mounted in closets or bathrooms.
*11. *Panel boxes require work clearance of 30 inches wide, 3 feet deep and floor to ceiling height unobstructed area. There shall be nothing in this area.
*12. *Meters shall be 5 feet 6 inches to the center of the meter above final grade.
*13. *Weather heads shall be a minimum height of 13 feet above ground.
*14. *Inspectors must be able to inspect under manufactured homes before shirting is installed.
*15. Conduit ditches shall remain open until the inspection.*


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

What has St. Clair county have to do with Chicago? And I suspect that the unions have the final say so in Chicago, no matter what the AHJ or building codes say. Years ago while doing carpentry on a Chicago mall project the scenario was, when mixing concrete for the project was 1. Union electrician plugged in and turned on the cement mixer. 2. Union carpenter added the concrete to the mixer while 3. Union plumber turned on the hose to add the water. And the reverse when each batch was finished. And there is absulutely NO exaggeration in this post.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Moving right along; Chicago has it's own unique electrical code, applicable within Chicago city limits and some of the outlying towns.

You can read it here: http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/e.../inspect/svcs/chicago_buildingcodeonline.html

I can't make heads or tails of most of it at the moment.


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## jbfan (Jul 1, 2004)

From the conversations over the years with electricians from Chicago, all wiring is in metal.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

I agree. A quick browse through Chicago's version of articles 3xx gives the impression that they don't recognize nonmetallic conduit as a legal wiring method at all.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

McSteve said:


> I agree. A quick browse through Chicago's version of articles 3xx gives the impression that they don't recognize nonmetallic conduit as a legal wiring method at all.


Basically for all the trades they don't recognize any materials or methods that are designed to reduce material or labor costs! :thumbup:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> What has St. Clair county have to do with Chicago? And I suspect that the unions have the final say so in Chicago, no matter what the AHJ or building codes say. Years ago while doing carpentry on a Chicago mall project the scenario was, when mixing concrete for the project was 1. Union electrician plugged in and turned on the cement mixer. 2. Union carpenter added the concrete to the mixer while 3. Union plumber turned on the hose to add the water. And the reverse when each batch was finished. And there is absulutely NO exaggeration in this post.


Did you read the 2005 NEC codes? 

compare them to 2009 NEC codes, and the new 2011 NEC codes, any changes? If not, there's your answer.

That said, I call complete BS. Per UNION CONTRACTS A UNION PLUMBER is NOT ALLOWED to have ANYTHING to do with anything outside of Plumbing and Pipefitting for a building or home. 

And a UNION ELECTRICIAN is not allowed to plug equipment used by the other trades into anything, if it's not directly a part of the Electricians job to do the Electrical Work. The only thing a UNION Electrician can plug in, is his Drill, Sawzall, or a work light that HE/SHE is using. And furthermore, a UNION Carpenter, will NOT handle concrete, or handle ANYTHING at a construction site that is two forms or lower. That falls onto the UNION Cement Mason.

Try again, I've played this game before, and have worked with Union guys before too, Unions have nothing to do with policy or procedure, or building codes. That is purely legislature that determines building codes. As far as JOB descriptions, that's what the UNIONs do, is they negotiate TERMS OF WORKING CONDITIONS. Which believe it or not, SAVES MONEY, and IMPROVES QUALITY of the job. I.e. I call complete BS you're going to pay an Electrician $40 an HOUR to mix and pour concrete, set rebar, and make concrete forms and slabs, when you can pay the CEMENT MASON $25 an hour to do that job. 

You're not going to pay a Plumber $35 an hour to spray water into a Cement Mixer, when the CEMENT MASON does that AS A PART OF THE CEMENT MASONS JOB for $25 an hour. 

Furthermore, DO YOU THINK THE UNIONS will PERMIT another Union Trade to do that Union Trades job? That's the point of a Union, that is why you have the "United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Jointers", The United Brotherhood of Painters Plasterers and Cement Masons", "The United Association of PLumbers and Pipefitters" etc. Because if the job does not fall into that specific craft/trade of Construction, it does not fall into that Union, therefore, per UNION policies, another UNION will NOT do another UNIONS job. That COMPLETELY removes the entire reason of a Union to exist. 

And cost wise, I call BS because no contractor is going to pay such insane pay rates for the same jobs they can have for OTHER Union Tradesmen for MUCH cheaper. 

Now, that said and done with.

Compare NEC Codes, that will be the answer. Waiting on response via e-mail to the Chicago City Hall to get the answer direct.


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

First of all, I was on that job and I described it exactly as it happened.
Secondly, Your long winded responses and comments have more mis-information than most on this board...that began with your "red wire transfer" reply.

And again I ask...what does St. Clair have to do with Chicago?

I suggest that you answer only what you actually know about, not what you think you know. And I do know that if anyone knows BS it certainly must be you.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> First of all, I was on that job and I described it exactly as it happened.
> Secondly, Your long winded responses and comments have more mis-information than most on this board...that began with your "red wire transfer" reply.
> 
> And again I ask...what does St. Clair have to do with Chicago?
> ...


St Clair is a county in Illinoise, which is the same state you can guess which city is in? Oh crap, it's Chicago!

SSSSOOO, what happens when you have NEC (NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE) numbers that are cited by the state of ILLINOISE per its REFERENCES TO STATE Electrical Guidelines, and you somehow get someone with a copy of the latest NEC Book?

What happens, is you take Article 250-64B NEC, and then see what that article says in the newest edition. 

And THEN you go HERE http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en.html and then you send them the code reference in the NEC, and you ask, "HEY, I WAS TALKING TO SOME GUY ON THE INTERNET AND WE FOUND AN ONLINE DOCUMENT STATING ARTICLE 25-64B NEC REQUIRING THE GROUND TO BE IN PVC, CAN PVC BE USED AS CONDUIT IN A RESIDENTIAL SETTING?"

Then, what they will say in response is this:

"Oh, yeah it's ok, here are some other references for Electrical work found here here and here" OR, "Oh no, I'm sorry that's outdated, to see our current Electrical Code, view this this and this"

And then do you know what happens then?

You get your answer. 

Holy freeholies. 

And BTW, A Travel wire is the same as a Transfer, FYI. 

Furthermore, I call complete and total BS that was the set-up your construction site had. Do you know why? Cement Masons Unit would have exploded over the Electrical Brotherhood, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Jointers, and the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters, so much to the point that contractor who hired them to do that job violated contracts, and each other Union violated their own contracts for working conditions.

I call BS.

EDIT

Also, the Plasterers and Cement Masons Union, would be suing the living crap out of the other Unions for doing THEIR work, when each UNION has signed AGREEMENTS and LEGAL CONTRACTS that they would NOT do another Unions work.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

There are many examples of union work rules that did not lead to productive use of maintenance resources! Take changing a pump for example, it requires a minimum of three unions to be involved, electricians, pipefitters and millrights. In reality, the people does it really take to do that job?

There are many more examples but especially in the maintenance crafts each union tries to protect their niche and really is concerned about lowering costs and raising productivity. :furious: This is especially true in the Chicago area but also could be seen in many other Northeastern and Midwestern areas.


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## McSteve (Dec 8, 2009)

Now that the OP has been scared off back in the first few posts of page 1, the takeaway lesson from this is that Chicago has their own, completely independent electrical code, which includes NEC article numbers purely to make it more convenient for electricians familiar with the NEC to look stuff up.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> St Clair is a county in Illinoise, which is the same state you can guess which city is in? Oh crap, it's Chicago!


WRONG!!!!!! 


St. Clair County is across the river from St. Louis, MO....missed it by only 400 miles, darn.

Chicago is in Cook County, learn to read a map.

Even if you find a code book for COOK COUNTY, believe me it doesn't mean it applies to the CITY of Chicago.







> Illinoise


by the way...there is no NOISE in Illinois.....so learn to read a map AND spell correctly...if you found Illinois(no "e") on a map, just copy the spelling from that.....


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> There are many examples of union work rules that did not lead to productive use of maintenance resources! Take changing a pump for example, it requires a minimum of three unions to be involved, electricians, pipefitters and millrights. In reality, the people does it really take to do that job?
> 
> There are many more examples but especially in the maintenance crafts each union tries to protect their niche and really is concerned about lowering costs and raising productivity. :furious: This is especially true in the Chicago area but also could be seen in many other Northeastern and Midwestern areas.


Did you know in the State of Washington, its illegal for anyone in a commercial setting to do anyform of Electrical work of anykind without either being licensed, or having a Licensed Electrician oversee the work being done? That holds true on a maintenance team as well.

Did you know a Plumber isn't allowed to connect the three wires that go into an Electric Water Heater, despite having adapters that plug into each other? And it has nothing to dow ith being union, it has to do with who's licensed to do what.

Same mentality can be taken into the medical sector. You're not going to have a gynocologist conduct chemo therapy for cancer in the female genitals. Nor will you have a Gynocologist do a Prostate Exam, without a Proctologist overseeing the gynocologists work.

Nor will you have an EKG Technician doing MRIs, or an X-Ray Technician doing EKGs.

If you're not licensed to do the work, guess what? You're not licensed to do it, therefore, you're not legal to do the work unless properly supervised by the person who has the license. 

REason you have a Plumber involved, is because a Plumbers job and licensure is installing fuel lines. Anyform of gas or fluid piping, is done by a Plumber. Anything that has to do with high pressure or high temperature steam, falls onto a pipefitter. 

The Millwrights job, is to assemble and/or repair Mechanical components or machines. Which an Electrician would not be qualified, or educated enough to do. Nor would a Plumber. 

It's why on a Maintenance Team, a typical Maintenance TEam, you will have: Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber, HVAC-R Technician, Pipefitter/Steamfitter, Equipment Operation and Landscaper. Those are the primary slots you'll typically see on a maintenance team, and then any low level personelle that help/support them doing their work. 

Every member of the maintenance team will have a basic understanding and knowledge of all tasks, conditions, and types of work and products each member of the maintenance team specializes in, so everyone can do everyones job on the basic level, to allow SMEs to focus on the more in-depth work towards their trade. Saves time, money, and increases production. 

And it allows the Team to do all tasks, because they have someone who has the required license to inspect/oversee work being done. Making that work legal.

Unions have absolutely nothing to do with it, state legislature does, because teh STATE wants to see a LICENSE to do the work. Why? Because they want to know who's going to sue who and who's liable to pay for damages being done.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> WRONG!!!!!!
> 
> 
> St. Clair County is across the river from St. Louis, MO....missed it by only 400 miles, darn.
> ...


 
Document said St Clair County Illinois unless I misread it. 

Even if it was cook county, you'd still have a code reference to discuss with the commissioners office, which was the entire point of it. :thumbsup:


*



County of St. Clair
Building & Zoning Department​10 Public Square

Belleville, Illinois 62220


Mike Mitchell, Director (618) 277-6600 Ext. 2530
Schedule Inspections (618) 277-6600 Ext. 2644
Hours 8:00 a.m. – 4:30 p.m.​BUILDING INFORMATION SHEET


 All ground disturbing activities in the unincorporated area of St. Clair County MUST FIRST FILE A SEDIMENTATION AND EROSION CONTROL PLAN with the St. Clair County Soil and Water Conservation District prior to a building permit being issued. Soil and Water Conservation office is located at 2031 Mascoutah Road, Belleville, Illinois, phone number is (618) 233-5577.

 Property must have an assigned address from the 9-1-1 Coordinating office prior to a building permit being issued. The 9-1-1 Coordinating office is located at 101 First St., Belleville, Illinois, phone number is (618) 277-7316.

 A Copy of the recorded deed must accompany this application for Zoning Compliance. All contracts for deed must be recorded in the Recorder of Deeds office prior to applying for a building permit.

 If this is an application for a commercial/industrial structure, (2) two sets of plans and specifications designed by the architect that is licensed and registered in the State of Illinois must accompany this application. The seal must appear on all sheets of the plans and specifications.

 You must also have a letter from the architect indicating that the plans are for the construction as being submitted.

Click to expand...

And please tell me where it states missouri...*


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> Even if it was cook county, you'd still have a code reference to discuss with the commissioners office, which was the entire point of it.


OK, well regardless of what county it is in, your "code reference to discuss with the commissioners office" would be invalid unless the place your working is governed by the COUNTY code....which Chicago CITY isn't.

And on that note, I won't argue this point (again and again and again) any more. Chicago code is a CITY code...Chicago city could care less what Cook County says, or what the state of Illinois says because Chicago CITY code is more strict than either of those, so Chicago CITY code can and does overrule them.





> And please tell me where it states missouri...


OK then...St. Clair County is where Belleville, IL is...feel better...know where that is?? Didn't think so....well I'll tell ya....it's across the Mississippi River (which seperates Illinois and Missouri) from St. Louis, MO (I assumed that would be a more nationally known reference than Belleville, IL)


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> OK, well regardless of what county it is in, your "code reference to discuss with the commissioners office" would be invalid unless the place your working is governed by the COUNTY code....which Chicago CITY isn't.
> 
> And on that note, I won't argue this point (again and again and again) any more. Chicago code is a CITY code...Chicago city could care less what Cook County says, or what the state of Illinois says because *Chicago CITY code is more strict than either of those, so Chicago CITY code can and does overrule them.*
> 
> ...


 
Which is why you BRING IT UP TO THE CITY and you ASK THEM HEY does THIS CODE apply to CHICAGO's building conformaties? 

IS THIS acceptable per BUILDING code for THIS city?

THAT is why I even POSTED THE LINK to the commissioners office, which has a contact section. 

So the OP DOES have a reference to Electrical code, and can ASK IF IT APPLIES, or what Chicagos ammendments to that code are, if at all. 

THAT is why it's posted, THAT is how it helps. 

Have you ever done this before? With respect, it defintiely doesn't seem like it.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

*BigGuy01*, I am sorry that your state (as well as many others) are so shortsighted that they truly believe a person is only capable of successfully and safely performing maintenance tasks in one field of expertise. Because of that your area and company are probably going to go the way of many others who were so shortsighted! In today's real world efficiency of the workforce is the name of the game in order to stay competitive. 

The multinational company that I work for trains all of our maintenance professionals to be at least skilled in two major fields and many of them are experts in at least three! Obviously none of our facilities have unions and are all located in right to work states. Having a union does nothing to promote better craftsmanship nor a better working relationship between labor and management, all it does is interfere in that relationship.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Can't edit my above for some reason its locked?

Anyways, no point even discussing this, Per Chicago a homeowner is not permitted to even touch electrical work.

*Electrical Inspections*


Phone: (312) 743-3622
[email protected]

The goal of the Electrical Inspection Bureau is to enforce the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment and to avoid the danger of electrical shock and fire. Inspectors work in conjunction with electrical contractors and building owners to ensure all buildings meet the City of Chicago electrical code requirements.
The Electrical Bureau is responsible for a variety of inspections. Our primary function is to inspect all electrical installations and to check that they are installed in an approved manner to ensure public safety. The Bureau responds to complaints of code violations and assures that they are corrected. We also conduct annual inspections of nursing homes, day care centers, electrical signs, and buildings defined as Public Places of Assembly. In addition, the Bureau inspects fire alarms, and life safety emergency systems in a variety of buildings and institutions, to ensure code compliance and safety.
*Frequently Asked Questions:*

*Q: Can owners do their own electrical work? *
A: No. Due to the potential for electric shock or fire hazard, only Electrical Contractors* licensed* by the City of Chicago can perform electrical installations.
*Q: Can an owner obtain an electrical permit? *
A: The licensed electrical contractor completes the required permit application, along with the supervising electricians signature and license number.
*Q: Does the City's Electrical Bureau recognize T U V AMERICA as a national recognized testing laboratory?*
A: The city of Chicago Electrical Inspection Bureau does recognize T U V AMERICA as a national recognized testing laboratory. Products bearing a TUV label would be acceptable to the city's electric inspection bureau. Please see Section 18-27-110.2 of the city electrical code for this requirement.
*Q: As a tenant, who do I call if I have electrical violations that the landlord will not repair? *
A: Call 311. Please give as much detailed information as possible, including a daytime phone number so that the inspector can contact you to arrange a date and time for an inspection.

*Additional Information*

Electrical regulations are found in Title 14 of the Chicago Building Code, chapters 14-8 through 14- 72. Only registered electrical contractors are issued permits to perform electrical work. Electrical work is permitted either as part of a "Building Permit" or as "Electrical Work Only".
Electrical Work associated with a "Building Permit":
Building Permit Applications must include a properly filled out short form Electrical Permit Application. These applications are available from the Department of Buildings website. All short form electrical applications are signed by the licensed supervising electrician employed by the Contractor. Note that the Electrical Contractor's name, address and license number should be entered on the face of the Building Permit Application in the appropriate area. Electrical plans are required by various sections within the Code. An outline of these requirements can be found on the following page. Required drawings, load calculations or letters of relief should accompany the Building Permit submittal. Relief from the Code will only be considered before a permit is issued. Jobs that require Exit/Emergency Fire Prevention review will be accepted with a receipt from FPB confirming submittal along with the required electrical drawing. Jobs requiring a Standard Fire Alarm will be accepted without drawings but must include a FPB receipt confirming submittal. Before work begins on a required fire alarm system, all reviews must be complete and a separate wiring permit shall be obtained.




http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/supp_info/electrical_inspections.html

EDIT 

BTW, I see nothing in this that says anything about Unions


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Msradell said:


> *BigGuy01*, I am sorry that your state (as well as many others) are so shortsighted that they truly believe a person is only capable of successfully and safely performing maintenance tasks in one field of expertise. Because of that your area and company are probably going to go the way of many others who were so shortsighted! In today's real world efficiency of the workforce is the name of the game in order to stay competitive.
> 
> The multinational company that I work for trains all of our maintenance professionals to be at least skilled in two major fields and many of them are experts in at least three! Obviously none of our facilities have unions and are all located in right to work states. Having a union does nothing to promote better craftsmanship nor a better working relationship between labor and management, all it does is interfere in that relationship.


Where I train and do work, it's the same way. Everyone cross trains into everyones field on a basic level, but then have licensure in a specific area to legally oversee work being done.

For your Company, unless you have dual license holders (like Plumbing and Electrical Licenses with one guy etc.) it would be legally impossible to have people have two major focus areas. 

However, the reason why they have licensed personelle, is so they have someone to fall back to for more complicated matters of the job, and to legally sign off on the quality of work, and determine if work meets specs.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> it would be legally impossible to have people have two major focus areas.


You make assumptions based on where YOU live. Some places don't require all trades to be licensed...in other words, they finally got over themselves.....when WA does, you will have more opportunity too :thumbsup:


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

*franwalker* The best thing you can do is contact the local AHJ and see what they recommend. It's very unlikely that you will be allowed to do the work yourself in Chicago. You will wind up paying a local contractor that the city has licensed for work there.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> You make assumptions based on where YOU live. Some places don't require all trades to be licensed...in other words, they finally got over themselves.....when WA does, you will have more opportunity too :thumbsup:


There isn't a state in the country that does not require an Electrician to be Licensed, or any states that don't require their Plumbers to be Licensed, Nor any states that don't require general contractors to be Licensed.

Then you have individual cities that have their own licenses which require state licenses to even apply for the city licenses. 

Such as what I'm finding wit Chicago, to get a Chicago Electricians License, you have to be licensed as an Electrician with the State of Illinois, and then apply for Licensure with the City of Chicago. Both licenses are required to remain current to work as an Electrical Contractor in Chicago.

That said, the OP cannot legally even touch his electrical circuits in his home, much less even touch conduit per Chicagos statutes.

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/supp_info/electrical_inspections.html

Also finding in Chicago, Concrete work doe snot fall under a General Contractors License, you have to get the General Contractors License through the state of Illinois, then to do anything with concrete in Chicago, you have to get a Chicago Masonry License.

Also, Electricians in Chicago are not permitted to handle circuit breakers in Chicago City Limits. So, an Electrician in Chicago has to have an Illinois Electricians License, then get a Chicago Electrical Contractors License, and THEN they have to get a Chicago Circuitbreaker License. 

That's outright ridiculous. O.O 

They also have to start at "C" Level in each of Chicago cities licenses, and get 6,000hrs performing each the Electrical Contractors License and Circuit Breakers Licenses to get them to "A" level. 

They literally do expect home owners to be nimrods. holy crap O.O Even California's not that hard to get licenses.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> There isn't a state in the country that does not require an Electrician to be Licensed


I'm done with you.......






> ILLINOIS *
> Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation
> 320 W. Washington
> Springfield, IL 62786
> ...


From THIS site

and before you say it, and I KNOW you will....some "local jurisdictions" don't care one way or another.



Good day sir


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

...and Missouri does not require an electricians license at a state level.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> I'm done with you.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's funny, because the city of Chicago requires an ILLINOIS ELECTRICIANS LICENSE to even APPLY for a City of Chicago Electrical Contractors License, and a City of Chicago Circuit Breaker License.


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> There isn't a state in the country that does not require an Electrician to be Licensed, or any states that don't require their Plumbers to be Licensed, Nor any states that don't require general contractors to be Licensed.
> 
> Then you have individual cities that have their own licenses which require state licenses to even apply for the city licenses.
> 
> ...


Indiana for one has no statewide electrical licensing. Other states do not as well.


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

> ...and Missouri does not require an electricians license at a state level.


LOL...Missouri can be a PITA. Each county has their own licensing I think, right?? And from what I've heard some counties don't recognize the next counties license, so if you want to work in both, you have to test out in both....??

I'm asking, not telling...this is all just hear-say


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Perhaps it's a comprehension issue, or just poor training, but last time I checked Chicago *WAS NOT A STATE!*


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## brric (Mar 5, 2010)

BigGuy01 said:


> That's funny, because the city of Chicago requires an ILLINOIS ELECTRICIANS LICENSE to even APPLY for a City of Chicago Electrical Contractors License, and a City of Chicago Circuit Breaker License.


 Might that be a state CONTRACTORS license?


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> LOL...Missouri can be a PITA. Each county has their own licensing I think, right?? And from what I've heard some counties don't recognize the next counties license, so if you want to work in both, you have to test out in both....??
> 
> I'm asking, not telling...this is all just hear-say


WHy would Missouri require a state license for hair braiding, but not Electrical work?

This is outright insane O.O

And regarding Illinois, per City of Chicago, you need an Illinois Electricians License to apply for the City of Chicago Electrical Contractors License, and the City of Chicago Circuit Breaker License. So I really don't see how that would work if Illinois doesn't have a Electricians License?

Also, per your website you posted, Illinois, like Missouri, also requires state licensure to do hair braiding, and Illinois requires a state license for Fast Food Production (wth?) But it doesn't mention Electrical Licensure? This is making no sense. O.O


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

jproffer said:


> LOL...Missouri can be a PITA. Each county has their own licensing I think, right?? And from what I've heard some counties don't recognize the next counties license, so if you want to work in both, you have to test out in both....??
> 
> I'm asking, not telling...this is all just hear-say


For the most part it's as you say....the counties are pretty independant. But back in Illinois it went far beyond that. Electricians there must be acknowledged by the county and the city before they can work there. A fee for this and a fee for that. But by far Cook county is the worst, and Lake county next in line.


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> Perhaps it's a comprehension issue, or just poor training, but last time I checked Chicago *WAS NOT A STATE!*


No **** , but per the CITY OF CHICAGO for an Electric Contractors License, you need a STATE OF ILLINOIS ELECTRICIANS LICENSE to *APPLY* for the City of Chicago's Electrical Contractors License, and the City of Chicago Circuit Breaker LIcense (which doesn't make sense considering circuitbreakers are a part of an Electricians scope)



brric said:


> Might that be a state CONTRACTORS license?


City of Chicago's website says a copy of your Illinois State Electricians License is required to accompany application for your City of Chicago Electrical Contractors License.

So, how do you submit a copy of your Illinois State Electricians License with your City of Chicago Electrical Contractors License Application, when, you "can't" get a State of Illinois Electricians License?

How the h*** does that work again?


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

All I know of IL is southern IL (downstate, as the folks from up north say)...around here they are fairly lax AFAIK.

Sounds like a PITA no matter what, lol.



By the way, when I get my hair braided, especially in a fast food production plant, I absolutely require my braiding technician to produce his or her license for my review. :yes::jester:


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## BigGuy01 (Jul 11, 2011)

jproffer said:


> All I know of IL is southern IL (downstate, as the folks from up north say)...around here they are fairly lax AFAIK.
> 
> Sounds like a PITA no matter what, lol.
> 
> ...


You get your hair braided? 

That makes a lot of sense now... 

:yes: :laughing:

But it's literally ridiculous, but no, the license is to work in a fast food joint, you need a state license to work at McDonalds in Illinois XD That's made my entire evening. 

"I have to study for my state test tomorrow"
"what's the test for Johnny?"
"Fast Food License for McDonalds"
"...."

LOL!


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## jproffer (Mar 12, 2005)

Good Lord


I really doubt that every pimple faced 16 year old at the mcDonalds making minimum wage has a license....BUT, if you say so...who am I to dispute it?


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## Missouri Bound (Apr 9, 2011)

Chicago only allows union electricians....and only union electricians are allowed to get an Illinois Electrician License...Do the math.


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Missouri Bound said:


> Chicago only allows union electricians....and only union electricians are allowed to get an Illinois Electrician License...Do the math.


That's why this state doesn't issue a state electrician's license. Illinois State electrician licenses are issued by the IBEW.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

This thread is now closed. Please keep in mind the forum rule: "treat others with *respect*". 

Review them at the "Terms of service" box at the bottom right of every page, thank you.

Gary


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