# Roofing, Labor only ????



## cibula11 (Jan 6, 2007)

Labor is probably close to a third of the total bid. I live in Iowa and 150 for everything an above avg. price.


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## olie (Oct 29, 2007)

*o.k.*

o.k. so the 150 a square is labor AND material ??

Thanks in advance.

Olie


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

olie said:


> o.k. so the 150 a square is labor AND material ??



Only if your company employs Illegals to do the work. For a 30 year roof materials will cost between $120-150 per square alone. Total labor materials and disposal & warranty we charge on average $400 per square


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

150 a sq is ridiculous for everything


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

You think thats bad I just lost a job to a guy that bid $210/sq materials labor and disposal on a 50 year Tamko two layer strip


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

you mean he bought it !:furious:


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## PKHI (Oct 23, 2007)

YA good for him the thing was all cut up too 60sq


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

I just received a bid for a new roof. $125/sq. which includes heavy roofers select felt, new drip edge, Elk Prestigue HD shingles, all flashing and vent pipe flashing. This does not include removal and disposal of existing roof. I am remodeling and have removed over half the existing roof. $30/sq. to remove and dispose the remaining roof.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

and I`m sure he`s licensed &insured,pays workman`s comp. etc.....NOT


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

I have not seen proof of insurance and workman's comp insurance, but I asked and he claimed he had insurance. The bid includes a written 5 year workmanship guarantee. He was recommended by my insurance agent.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I see so many people being duped by the "Claim" that they have insurance.

Actually, they may even be able to show a certificate of insurance, but you need to contact the insurance carrier and find out what "Exemptions" or "Exclusions" they have.

Do they use day laborers who they 1099 as independant employees? Firstly, if they do so, that is not acceptable with the IRS and if they do that, then each day laborer would have to have their own insurance policy.

About Workers Compensation. the owner can choose to "Exclude" himself from the policy. That means that that person is NOT covered.

So too can the individual "1099 Day Laborers" or subcontractors. They can all "Exclude" themselves from the policy coverage.

Therefor, none of these "Employees" are actually covered!

A rate too cheap means they are shifting some aspect of their overhead burden onto the shoulders of the unknowing consumer.

If you want to accept the responsibility, then choose to do so, but if not, then be prepared to investigate and find out how much potential risk you are assuming if anything does happen.

Ed


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

Well put,ED :thumbsup: :yes:


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed the roofer, I appreciate the comments. I am not sure if there is any way for me to verify what insurance, if any, he has without a lot of effort. I trust my insurance agent, I have known him for years. He used this guy to roof his house and his mother's house. It's a crap shoot any time you have workers at your home. I have run off several crews in the past when it's apparent they are not professional. (The last being a concrete crew.) I am always on site when work is being done on the house. 

This same guy sprayed an elastomeric (sp) type roofing on my metal shop roof this past summer and did a very good job. We have had several 3" rains with no leaks. No illegals were on site during this job. It was a crew of 4. It's my understanding that a different crew will be installing the Elk roofing on my house so it remains to be seen if any illegals show up for this job. The shingles were placed on top of the house today, Elk Prestique HD which I understand is a 30 year shingle with a few bundles of Z ridge. They also delivered color matching valley flashing, new color matching drip edge for the entire roof, and new vent flashings. The contract also specifies new flashing around the skylights and chimmey with this flashing painted to match. We did make a change in the contract to the felt. Instead of using heavy roofers select felt, an ice shield product is to be used (I know nothing about this product but he recommended it when he found out the roof slope was 3:12 instead of 4:12). The product delivered was GAF WeatherWatch. This change increased the price from $125/sq. to $140/sq. Again, that does not include removal and disposal of the few squares of roofing remaining. That is an extra $30/sq. The guy seems to be making an effort to do a good job. My water well is now covered by the roof as a result of the remodeling work. Provisions must be made to pull the well pump so a hole is required in the roof. He had a sheet metal company fabricate flashing for the hole. The cost, $18. 

It's my understanding that roofing labor varies widely across the country. I'm in Oklahoma.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The only trouble and time it would take to verify the things I told you about would be a phone call to his insurance agent or broker and a request for the certificate of insurance.

It is too bad that so many people out there feel that one phone call is not worth the hassle to find out what needs to be discovered prior to signing a contract.

Yes, OK does have cheaper labor rates than the majority of the more populated areas around the country.

Ed


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed the Roofer, it's certainly not the trouble one call would make. I'm not sure I would understand what the insurance company said when I called. For example, they may have coverage but not enough coverage. For that information to be meaningful to me I would need to know what the typical coverage is for a roofing company. Getting the info is no trouble, knowing what it means is the effort part. I own a software company and my insurance coverage is different than that for a roofing company. My employees are not likely to fall off a roof while at work.

This guy was not the cheapest bidder. I always get 3 bids for any job and the one I select is based on gut feeling not price. I wound up getting 6 bids on the plumbing for the remodeling project before I found one that gave me that warm feeling.


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## NateHanson (Apr 15, 2007)

Just out of my own curiousity, I'd like to know if there's a practical danger of a homeowner getting sued by a roofer who falls off your roof when you've hired him to do that work. Especially in these cases where the signed contract says that the roofer has insurance. 

I'm no lawyer, but I just can't see there being any practical liability exposure for the homeowner in this case. What court is going to hear a suit by a roofer who lied about his insurance coverage, fell off the customers roof, and wants the homeowner to pay? 

Now, I'm really not arguing with the fact that it's wrong for a roofer to not carry adequate coverage. It's not fair to his workers, it's not fair to his competition who is playing by the rules, and it's not fair to the health care system who will ultimately end up eating the cost of his treatment if he's not covered. BUT, is it really putting the homeowner at grave financial risk as is often repeated here? I personally don't know. I'm just saying that it sounds unlikely to me. Can anyone illuminate the legal reality here? 

Thanks, Nate


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

It would not be the contractor suing the homeowner, it would be the injured workers attorney.

They go after whom ever has the most assets and the contractor may be shielded by a corporate shield personally and even if not, then they probably do not have many assets anyways.

The lawyer for the injured worker on the home would also be suing the contractor, but would inevitably go for the party with the most assets.

What if you sign a contract with contractor A, and he subs out the job to contractor B, whom you have never heard of and did not even know would be a subcontractor? The company B may or may not have Work comp insurance on their employees or they may pay them cash to keep them "Off Of The Books" and then it still will wind up being the home owner who is liable. Their HO insurance policy does not typically cover such workers unless you add on a rider to the policy. So the home owners personal assets are at stake.

Ed


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## NateHanson (Apr 15, 2007)

I understand the theory, I'm just wondering whether this is a real-world scenario.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

When a guy slips off of a roof and is not covered by work comp insurance, would you like to be the one to find out.

I have heard of this many times in consumer beware articles and postings on various forums.

Why don't people heed this advice? 

They fight it and hope everything goes okay, but what if you are that 1/1,000 that it may occur to?

It is so simple and logical and easy to verify.

Ed


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

First let me state I am not a lawyer. But I think Ed the Roofer is spot on. I would be the one sued if a worker fell off the roof and his/her employer did not have workmans comp. insurance. But since the injury occurred on my property, my home owners insurance policy would cover the expense up to my liability limit and also fight the case in court. I carry a high liability limit on my homeowner's insurance policy and I would recommend that everyone carry a high limit. The additional cost is very small. I do the same with my auto insurance. 

I could call the roofing company's insurance co. and verify his coverage and still be sued if he happened to use a day worker that day who was not covered.

Another point: If I hire contractor A for the roofing job and he subs it out to contractor B, and I pay contractor A and A does not pay B, I am liable for the money due B. I could pay for the roofing job twice. Insurance doesn't help in this case.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

spebby said:


> But I think Ed the Roofer is spot on. I would be the one sued if a worker fell off the roof and his/her employer did not have workmans comp. insurance. But since the injury occurred on my property,
> 
> *my home owners insurance policy would cover the expense up to my liability limit* and also fight the case in court. I carry a high liability limit on my homeowner's insurance policy and I would recommend that everyone carry a high limit.
> 
> ...


Usually, a homeowners insurance policy will NOT cover workers hired to to renovations tom your home. I am sure you can add this coverage, but it is not standard.

Ask your insurance agent, just for the sake of argument please.

Regarding the 2nd point, that is what lien waivers and Contractors Sworn Statements are for, but not too many people are aware of that. Many people do get screwed by paying their contractor and later find out that the contractor did not pay his account for the materials and then get a lien placed on their home.

Ed


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed the Roofer, I will ask my insurance agent and post his answer. It may be a few days, I have a very busy day tomorrow. The roofers also come tomorrow.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

I have plenty of time.

Depending on the answer you receive, maybe you don't.

Ed


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

I really don't understand that last comment. The roof will be completed before I have a chance to ask my insurance agent so that has no bearing on this job. If a worker falls off the roof and there is no workman's comp insurance and my homeowners policy doesn't cover it and I'm sued, I will deal with it. Just because I'm sued does not mean they win. My money says the roofer goes by the book and has workman's comp. I didn't just give the job to the lowest bidder. I did my homework and am comfortable he is a reputable individual. 

I personally think calling an insurance company and verifing that someone has workmans comp insurance is a waste of time. Even if the insurance company says he has workmans comp. you know nothing. When I pay workman comp. insurance for my employees, I list their names and job classifications. The rates are based on the job classifications. If I hire someone, the insurance company is notified. Without that info and checking the ID of each worker who shows up, knowing he has workers comp insurance is meaningless. The crew he sends may not be on the list.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

:huh: :huh:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

spebby said:


> I really don't understand that last comment. The roof will be completed before I have a chance to ask my insurance agent so that has no bearing on this job. If a worker falls off the roof and there is no workman's comp insurance and my homeowners policy doesn't cover it and I'm sued, I will deal with it. Just because I'm sued does not mean they win. My money says the roofer goes by the book and has workman's comp. I didn't just give the job to the lowest bidder. I did my homework and am comfortable he is a reputable individual.
> 
> I personally think calling an insurance company and verifing that someone has workmans comp insurance is a waste of time. Even if the insurance company says he has workmans comp. you know nothing. When I pay workman comp. insurance for my employees, I list their names and job classifications. The rates are based on the job classifications. If I hire someone, the insurance company is notified. Without that info and checking the ID of each worker who shows up, knowing he has workers comp insurance is meaningless. The crew he sends may not be on the list.


 
I can not believe that anybody could be so negligent to not even covering their own butt, by making a simple phone call.

Possibly, and even probably, due to your research on this company, they have all their ducks in a row, but I can not comprehend the absurdity of attempting to state that a phone call is too much bother.

Simply amazing!  

Good Luck, and I hope you are not the 1/1,000, seriously.

Ed


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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I can not believe that anybody could be so negligent to not even covering their own butt, by making a simple phone call.
> 
> Possibly, and even probably, due to your research on this company, they have all their ducks in a row, but I can not comprehend the absurdity of attempting to state that a phone call is too much bother.
> 
> ...


 
Ed, I think it you read what I wrote you would understand my viewpoint. It's not the bother of the phone call, it's the fact the phone call can not produce any useful information. The call would only indicate whether the company has insurance or not, not who is covered. That info can not be released.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

they are set up to give certificates to every job you have done,saying it can`t be released would let you know he doesn`t have it,never heard such bullchit


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)




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## spebby (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed the Roofer, the roofing job was completed Saturday morning and I'm very pleased. Based on the posts you and The Roofing God have made in other threads I'm confident they did a good job. I am not very knowledgable when it comes to roofing so I spent some time at this forum reading a number of topics before I selected a roofer. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge, it helped greatly.

No one fell off the roof thank goodness. I did see my insurance agent at the golf course Sunday and asked him if someone I hired for a project was injured and had no workmans comp. did my homeowners policy kick in. His answer: The homeowners policy itself did not kick in but the liability rider I added would kick in upto the liability limit.

I also asked him about the Certificate of Insurance a contractor has to show prospective customers. He said all they tell anyone who calls inquiring is whether the Insurance is still in effect. They do not provide a list of employees who are covered by workmans comp.

The crew that did the work all spoke English, it was a grandfather, his 2 sons and a few adult grandkids. The contractor stop by 3 times during the job. He overestimated the job by 1 sq. and reduced the price 1 sq.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

least he had a good reference guide :laughing:


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

So, just curious. Can you provide a list of some documented cases of a homeowner being successfully or unsuccesfully sued for a workers injury that ocurred while they were working for a company that told the homeowner they were insured. Newspaper articles or case numbers would suffice.

I have never heard of a single instance.

By the way, in the flyover country (midwest) fully insured, professional companies often charge what look like low rates to you big city folks. I'm amazed that you guys have to pay for such miserable living conditions.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

From a Google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=employee+sues+homeowner+for+no+workers+compensation+insurance

Ed


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