# leak in chimney water comes threw brick



## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 
We have this problem with water coming threw the brick half way down chimney face brick on the outside portion of chimney on a finished sun porch and at inside ceiling.
We just had the chimney redone from the roof line up.The mason thought it was coming threw the flues, we have 3. 1 is for the furnace, 1 for the fireplace and 1 for the beehive stove on the sun porch. I caped off the 2 we are not using (Fireplace & Beehive ) but we still get it, so I have ruled out not coming down the pipes. I have just put on the DEFY heavy duty water sealer repellent to the entire chimney above roof to see if that fixes it. I have picture showing the problem areas, below the ceiling and in the attic. Any help would be a step in the right direction. I will need to find out how to post the pictures and will post link for the visuals this afternoon.
Thanks


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

When you say you had the chimney redone.was it a tear down and rebuild or just repointing the mortar joints?

Were new bricks used if it was a tear down?

Did the mason check the condition of the flashing?

How's the roofing in that area?

It could be that you need another coat of the water sealant,a flashing problem or roofing leak.

I'd start with checking the flashing and roof first,move on to a second coat of sealer.
After visual inspection,of the flashing:
You could use a garden hose ,held down close to the roof,isolating the chimney from being the problem and see if it leaks.
Then move the hose up the chimney till the leak reappears to find the trouble spot ending at the caps.
Give the water a while to seep into the interior as sometimes it will take some time before it appears.


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 
Yes the Chimney was completely tore down to the roof line new bricks and flashing as well as new flues from the roof line up. All New in March, the roof was replaced 10 years ago so it is relatively new still. We had a problem before the new roof, they said it was the joints from the chimney and brick to get it replaced we just did. This link (if it works) shows the problem we are having. This is prior to the sealant I just put on the other day, so I don't know if it will fix the problem or not until the next rain. Now the Link http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=2AauGzJi2ZMnFw&notag=1

If it works you will see the problem if not I will try to post it on another site.


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## so-elitecrete (Oct 27, 2007)

*don't think the sealant'll,,,*

solve your problem as its interior ( negative side ),,, ck your flashing ( step or counter ),,, from what i can see, the moisture appears to be coming thru the block, not running down either side of the block.

sorry i can't see your house from my house, tho.


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## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

That is a pretty horrible looking chiney cap.

A good cap should overhang the widest parts of the chimney by several inches and have a formed drip so the water drips down to the roof and not run down the chimney until it is absorbed or finds a leakage point.

The flasshing does not look good either and wonder if you have step flashing on the side of the chimney.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

No chimney flashing is the problem.









Not to mention there is no flashing up that gable behind the chimney. You need a roofer, and you should also get rid of the caulking between the rafters and the chimney so they can breathe and dry out.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

tinner is right,your metal flashing work is horrible,needs to be replaced,that`s where I would start,you may have other problems as well,you can also get steel? flue tubes to reline the 3 flues if there are further problems,---it looks like the cement cap has cracks at its edges where it finishes off to the brick


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 

All this was done by a mason who has been "doing this for thirty year" I thought he would do it correctly. Now my problem is trying to get him back over. He did all the caulking inside and out when I first noticed that we had a problem. There is a ton of flashing on the sides and front, I will take a couple of pictures today if I can for your advice again. I guess at this point I should have a second Guy take a look and give me a price?


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

If you paid 1 guy to do it,have him come touch up the cement cap,but I would look for a qualified roofer to do the chimney flashing work,have the new flashing reglets(groove cut for flashing insertion,typically 1/2" into brick)above the other guys mess,cut the old metal flush to the chimney(if you try to pull it out it will weaken the chimney)replace the shingles at chimney perimeter,install strips of ice&water shield around chimney laying up the faces of the chim. 3",then put apron,step,backpan,and counterflashings


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

hope the pics give you the idea


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 
Thanks for the help,I took photos of the outside since this is where the problem is now suspected. He said that the flashing is set into the brick 1" and then overlapped 4" back also something about double flashed? I was surprised to see that all the flashing was on top of the roofing when it was done but trusted the work. Please see attached and let me know if it should just be re-shingled from the roof line down on the lower roof (sun porch) we have no problems of leaks or trouble on the house side (higher Roof) or the front of the house. At this point if I get anything done I would rather have it done right by someone else or at least get a different person looking at it. I am not even sure if I can get him back to do the cap the correct way. Here is the link to the new pictures, thanks
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=2AauGzJi2ZMnJA&notag=1


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## so-elitecrete (Oct 27, 2007)

*w/o hands on,,,*

there's a whitish stain on some of the bricks,,, i suspect its efflorescence (line salts) leaching out from the mortar,,, pressure wash/brush & wtr then another coat of the sealer (silicone siloxane) previously mention'd.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

it doesn`t look rebuilt,top 3 or so courses have built up dirt?,looks like he brushed (very little)added some pointing(minor),and painted the cement cap,----I would remove the shingles 3 ft. around the chimney and redo from there,definitely have a good mason out to repair the chimney properly.a good flashing job has the flashings interwoven with the shingles,and shouldn`t need any tar-sorry you got taken


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Ditto what I said before. Your mason didn't do much of anything that is correct, even with the masonary. To be blunt, you were ripped off.
Sue him for damages and that may help pay the roofer you have to hire now.

Your roof will need repair from the front of the chimney to the ridge. And the chimney may need repair. Depends on what he finds when he tears that masons??? metal off to do a proper job.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

And don't forget to remove all that caulk inside the house.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

Check If You Have A Consumer Protection Agency That Can Make Him Refund Your Money


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 

The whitish stain is from the sealer I put on not sure why it did it in that one area only I asked for the chimney sealer and was given the heavy duty sealer that was also for walks and walls that would protect against salt and deicer chemicals when I questioned it he said it was good for both? The chimney use to be out of a completely different brick, I saw the tear down being done so I know it is new but was done improperly. I guess that roofers will only do it if they replace it from the roof lines down because the current roof is 10 years old? It would cost more to take him to court then to have repairs or fixes done.
What is the best way to remove the caulk in the attic? Is the flashing on the sides of the chimney incorrect as well, he put the caulk over the flashing and roof after I first noticed a problem and now it would be easier to get a new guy in then trying to hash it out with him. I don't like being jerked around but I would rather take my lumps and move on at this point just to get the problem fixed before I have interior damage as well.


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Hey again Kdawg,
The flashing on the sides of the chimney actually looks pretty good,as long as there was step flashing at each shingle under his counter flashing(the lead you see on the sides of the chimney).If he meant for the counter flashing to act as a step flashing than it could be cut just above the roof line and step flashing should be slipped and nailed under each course of shingles.

I would be concerned in two areas;

1) The flashing at the rear of the chimney
2)The step in the roof line where it is difficult to tuck in a piece of flashing without pulling off the upper piece of facia.

Like Roofing god stated,ice and water is a good first defense against any seepage.Correctly done,it will act as a barrier for the perimeter of the chimney,followed by the correct flashing method.
The ice and water should be at room temp.or better to seal correctly at the overlaps.You can do this by having it inside before installation.

Any water/snow that hits the back of that chimney will stop and find any penetration it can.

And have that cap looked at again.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

tinner666 said:


> Ditto what I said before. Your mason didn't do much of anything that is correct, even with the masonary. To be blunt, you were ripped off.
> Sue him for damages and that may help pay the roofer you have to hire now.
> 
> Your roof will need repair from the front of the chimney to the ridge. And the chimney may need repair. Depends on what he finds when he tears that masons??? metal off to do a proper job.


 
Tinner is 100% right ,redo all the metal and shingles around the chimney
It`s cheaper to do all of it over than it is to pick and choose


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

Actually,you can save quite a bit of money by keeping the flashing on the sides and bottom of chimney in place.Just make sure the step flashing is in place.No sense in disturbing those mortar joints around the existing flashing.
The back of the chimney is the last part to get done when the flashing is installed,so it looks like the mason cut corners here.This is the only section that will need new flashing.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

I disagree,and doubt you would spend less doing parts of the job ,rather than the whole thing,from your underneath photos ,you even appear to have wood rot,If you called me I would refuse to do part of it,instead of all


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Basically, everthing about your chimney is done incorrectly.

Mortar Joints are still not pointed correctly.

Concrete splash block, (not cap), does not overhang the sides which allaows all water to flow directly into the brick and the joints.

A small jump up to another roof level which does not have flashings done properly.

Not sure about this one, but it does not seem as if there is a cricket to divert the water from the gable roof side of the chimney to the main roof surface on the slightly lower roof.

The sheet metal flashings look as if somebody pounded them in with a mallet.

There is signs of significant moisture which has wicked into the decking underneath the chimney area.

Caulking done on the under side was totally useless.

Masonry is not water "Proof" anyways, so, once ths chimney gets re-done with tuck-pointing repairs and a properly affixed cement splash block, then the shingle and related flashing issues can be dealt with.

10 year old shingles may already be pretty brittle, so it may be a reasonable request for a roofing contractor to tear-off and re-do the entire roof section.

Chimney flashings consist of at least several seperate pieces of sheet metal.

Bottom side, which faces the eave edge, requires a base apron flashing, also sometimes called a Roof To Wall flashing.

Then both sides get the interply base step flashings installed as the courses of shingles get installed.

Then, on the top side, a cricket needs to be made to divert the down flowing water from directly running into the masonry obstacle without having anyplace to expell itself. This should get a sheet metal flashing installed directly on top of the wooden cricket and go up the wall of the top side of the chimney at least 4".

Then on all 4 sides, a sheet metal counter flashing needs to be installed. This can be mounted in a stepped pattern, or as a surface mounted or reglet fitting installation. These counter flashings then get attached to the 4 side walls of the brick chimney.

I would also add a chimney sealer product, such as one called chimney saver. This is an exterior applied brushable clear coating that encapsulates the exterior of the masonry structure. This needs to be re-applied every 3-5 years or so, to keep the bricks and mortar joints water-proof.

Ed


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## so-elitecrete (Oct 27, 2007)

*this is GREAT,,,*

can't believe how much i'm learning,,, have to do my own in atl, ga,,, THANKS VERY MUCH, ALL ! ! !,,, flashing, step flashing, & counterflashing were still a slight mystery to me.

1 thing more,,, the ' chimney sealer ',,, we use prosoco's silicone siloxane,,, any other suggestions ?

thanks, buds !


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

the roofing god said:


> I disagree,and doubt you would spend less doing parts of the job ,rather than the whole thing,from your underneath photos ,you even appear to have wood rot,If you called me I would refuse to do part of it,instead of all



Just amuse me for a minute here,

Why would you pull out the counter flashing that seems to be set in the mortar joints properly(on the sides and bottom of the chimney)and then cut into the brick with a diamond blade (adding another penetration in the chimney)to install new flashing?
That lead counter flashing could be easily cut(just above the roof line),pulled up to install the step flashing(if it isn't there) re-shingled (to get rid of the tarred shingles)and pushed back in place.
I do not see the point of removing that flashing.

*


the roofing god said:



I disagree,and doubt you would spend less doing parts of the job

Click to expand...

*


the roofing god said:


> Time is money.not to mention the purchase of new flashing.
> My intention was to save the HO some$,yours seems to be an ego thing.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

so-elitecrete said:


> can't believe how much i'm learning,,, have to do my own in atl, ga,,, THANKS VERY MUCH, ALL ! ! !,,, flashing, step flashing, & counterflashing were still a slight mystery to me.
> 
> 1 thing more,,, the ' chimney sealer ',,, we use prosoco's silicone siloxane,,, any other suggestions ?
> 
> thanks, buds !


Order the product catalog from Copperfield Chimney supplies and you will see plenty of alternatives.

Ed

P.S. The term "Flashing" is used so indiscriminantly by so many contractors who either do not know the proper terminology, or they don't care and prefer to confuse the home owner, and that it is a continual battle when comparing bids.

But the other contractor is doing flashings. Right?

NO. Not unless they spell out all of the indivdual steps and required materials. 

Just slapping roofing cement on top of the existing embedded counter flashings on the chimney in the previous photo could technically be considered as applying a counter flashing to it.


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello 

This was not a new problem and the pictures showing the roof from the inside was old damage prior to the roof being re-shingled the first time ten years ago. Now the water looks to be coming from the mortar joints in the cinder block not directly from the old roof leaks. So I guess I need to get a roofer over to get a price on striping the old shingles off taking off any plywood with that is damaged and get proper flashing, cricket on the lower roof side and fix the cap? since we have never had a problem with the high side roof (interior wall) does that need to be replaced as well to make sure it is not coming from that side over?


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Yes. Ed is a bit wordier than me. And he's correct.

About the caulk. There needs to be space between the block and the wood. With space, any moisture that gets in stays in the block and doesn't get the wood wet. The caulk will redirect any moisture and it prevents the wood and the block from breathing.


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## MGC (Jan 25, 2008)

Your whole problem lies in the flashing.

there is backwater seams on your flashing (each layer should overlap the previous layer from the bottom up).. where as in you picture, the underlying layer is sticking out. not to mention that the step flashing your mason did is on the outside of the shingles and not the inside.

The picture somebody posted of the copper flashing will give u an idea how it should be done, but in his picture it wasn't done correctly either. Each piece of flashing (step) should be put down with each shingle so as to cover all previous nail heads and make it so thats there is no water for the water to leak.

as for the taping off of the other 2 vents, i would recommend buying 3 caps for all the vents so that u can allow any gases to escape that might build up, and keep the water out at the same time.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

The picture somebody posted of the copper flashing will give u an idea how it should be done, but in his picture it wasn't done correctly either. Each piece of flashing (step) should be put down with each shingle so as to cover all previous nail heads and make it so thats there is no water for the water to leak.
SORRY TO SAY,BUT IT WAS DONE CORRECTLY,BASICALLY LIKE YOU SAID,,,WTF


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

THERE ARE NO NAILS SHOWING,AND THEY`RE SET WITH EACH COURSE,YOU SHOULD LOOK CLOSER BEFORE YOU SAY THINGS LIKE THAT--


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

1st Pic Shows Chimney Waterproofed With Ice +water Shield,2nd Pic Shows Apron And Side Stepflashing Installed With Each Course Of Shingle,3rd Pic Shows Side Counter Flashing With Rear Backpan Installed,4th Pic Shows Chimney Flashing Finished With Reglet Sealed------fwiw


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Hang on a minute guys.

I want to grab a bag of popcorn for this one. 

Ed


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

:boxing: :drink:


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

Instead Of Getting Popcorn,get This Guy Some Eyeglasses !!!!


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## MGC (Jan 25, 2008)

wow posting in all caps is really annoying..

anyway, from the fuzzyness of your pictures, your step flashing lookd like it was all one piece 

take better pictures and lose the caps lock


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

Maybe you need eyeglasses,and shouldn`t comment when you`re wrong,what`s annoying is helping someone out ,and then have someone come run their mouth about things they wrongly assume,and then have the audacity to tell people what to do,I got two words for you,and they`re not merry christmas:furious:


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## MGC (Jan 25, 2008)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

*carcino.gen.nz*


home
tech notes
*funny images*
contact
updates
carcino.gen.nz images


Image not found: 000001cf


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## MGC (Jan 25, 2008)




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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

some people don`t know how to say sorrry,I was wrong(for mgc)



*


the roofing god said:



I disagree,and doubt you would spend less doing parts of the job

Click to expand...

*


the roofing god said:


> Time is money.not to mention the purchase of new flashing.
> My intention was to save the HO some$,yours seems to be an ego thing.
> 
> not ego at all,I just do a complete job is all,and you wouldn`t pull the flashing out of the brick ,you would cut it flush with a grinder,,,and I do feel it`s a better job ,and less tedious to do the whole thing,and I would be concerned with his warranty there as I WOULDN`T WARRANTY ANYTHING ,WHERE OTHER PEOPLE`S WORK CAN CAUSE A PROBLEM,ESPECIALLY SINCE i DON`T SEE ANYTHING THERE WORTH SAVING


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

OLDFART-I don`t see why you want to jump on me when ed and tinner both say it should all be replaced as well,


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## RooferJim (Mar 11, 2006)

Keep in mind many codes require a cricket in back of all chiminys 30" or larger. The lead flashing work is terrible as is the brick work. Many chiminies in coastal areas also will have pan flashing "thru wall flashing" that is a continuous piece of metal turned up around the flue with weep holes. also water struck brick is a good idea in these envirments. of cours it has to be installed by a roofer"metal man" and brickies dont always like to wait for quality, in fact many are hacks, espeacially the chimny sweep types.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com 

disclaimer
"roofing advise free for a limited time only."


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## oldfrt (Oct 18, 2007)

the roofing god said:


> OLDFART-I don`t see why you want to jump on me when ed and tinner both say it should all be replaced as well,


 Didn't mean for it to sound like I was "jumping on Ya" ,TRG.

I just expressed my opinion on the flashing situation,and why I would leave what looks to be good counter flashing on the sides and bottom of that chimney.
You still didn't give a valid reason to remove all the counter flashing other than ed and tinner said to.

I would like the HO to think I'm looking after their best interest in:

#1 the final costs of the fix;
You can't say that after buying some new flashing,adding the time needed to remove the old flashing,cut the curf for new flashing,bend the new flashing ,install the new flashing,seal the curf between flashing and chimney,isn't going to add up to a *few hundred $'s.
*

#2 effectiveness of the repair/replacement
I find that when a mason sets the counter flashing in the mortar joints it's a lot *stronger* than any cut/caulk method.


The OP was looking for opinions,
You gave yours,I gave mine,Ed and Tinner gave theirs.
They aren't suppose to be the same. Everyone is just pointing out their own observations,which is sometimes hard gather from photo's.

Once the OP gets a local opinion,he'll have some feedback to work from and can weigh in all the opinions to make his final decision.
I was just giving another option for the OP to consider.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

the warranty on the work is a consideration,I always bring enough to do the right job completely,and if the customer refused to do it all the set up time would cost a few hundred dollars regardless,the reason to do it is it looks like crap and obviously was poorly done,once you touch a mess like that you are obligated to the whole mess,so yes it still should have been done completely over,the sides are done like crap,and the wood pictures from underneath showed the sheathing is soaked at the side of the chimney,ego has nothing to do with it,doing the right job so the homeowner never has a problem again has everything to do with it


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## Kdawg (Jan 20, 2008)

Hello All
Thank you all for the advise, well taken. Since I installed the sealer on the chimney, we have had 3 rains one was a good soaking and we must of got 2 or 3 inches of heavy rain over the coarse of about 6-8 hours the other two we got some but nothing I felt would test it out. I also went up into the attic prior to the rains and removed about 80% of the caulking on the chimney and would sections so that the "air flow" could be restored (some of it I could not get to) with that said I have had no leaks yet. I am hoping that this solves the problem and nothing needs to be done immediately, in the spring I am going to have a roofer look at both sides of the chimney to replace from the roof line down with a cricket installed in the back and the back side of the chimney counter flashing brought up higher. I will have him replace the wood next to the chimney that had old damage so that it will be easier to detect new leaks and that will remove all the caulk from the attic as well at that time. I didn't think the brick work itself looked bad, but thought that the cement section (white) on top should have been done better. But the only time I look at a chimney is from the road driving by, and they all look the same to me. I did notice that our chimney looks like 85% of the ones around so I don't know if this is a common practice for the area or what, and it looks 100% better of what was taken down so I thought we where going forward. When we get more rain I will let you know, thanks Keith


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Thats really promising news. Hopefully that takes care of the sense of urgency for the short term.

Would you mind sharing which Chimney Sealer product you used for others to know please? Was it a brushable of spray on version? 

The chimney sealing products do require to be re-applied evry few years due to UV degradation, so pay attention to the exterior in a few years and re-coat it as necessary.

The one potential short-coming of encapsulating a masonry product, is the internal moisture in the flue chase normally can wick out through the masonry material and now by being encapsulated, it must only exhaust completely through the top of the chimney. In major freeze/thaw regions, this would lead to moisture trapped in the masonry which could be subject to freezing internally.

Ed


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## redline (Mar 5, 2006)

The step flashing that rests above the roof shingles is not installed properly among other things as others have pointed out.


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## the roofing god (Aug 2, 2007)

thank you !exactly my point


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