# Charging R-410a



## beenthere

Install manual will tell you how much to add per foot of additional line set.

Add it as liquid only.

Hope you got low loss fittings.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> Install manual will tell you how much to add per foot of additional line set.
> 
> Add it as liquid only.
> 
> Hope you got low loss fittings.


Low loss fittings? Please explain.

I'll look threw the manual, but how if you dont know how many extra feet how can you tell by looking at the pressure where the charge is ideal? Thanks JIM


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## beenthere

They are fittings that have a seal/valve that provents the refrigerant in the hose from coming out.
Without it, removing the liquid line hose, puts a good amount of liquid out near or on your hand, and will tend to give frost bite.
Could be mold to severe.

Youy said you have 22'.

Without knowing your would have to use subcooling and super heat to know correct charge, and if its operating correctly.

Pressure tells you very little.


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## integlikewhoa

Thanks again for the info. I have seen subcool and superheat charts, I just have never used them before. I don't really know how they work. Is there any online or are they all charts you have buy? I'll only be doing it once. 

I have been think'n about trying to find someone that wants to take my set of guages and left over 410a to charge my system properly. I have a 25lb of R-410a unopened that I'm probley going to use very little of and then throw it in my garage only to probley never use it again. I also have the guages, that I will probley never use again. (asumming I do everything right the first time).

Anyone have any good links on how to charge or use the subcool and superheat charts? Thanks JIM


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## beenthere

There are lots of sites that have refrigerant P/T charts that you can down load.


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## jsherrill77

Okay, since this is a TXV system you must check charge by subcooling method and not superheat. It's really not to difficult to do. First you hook up your gauges. let system run for 15 minutes. If your gauges also show different refrigerants you won't even need a pressure/temp chart. Just follow needle down from pressure reading until you get to 410A, and that'll be your saturation temp. (the point at which the freon is completely saturated... drop temp anymore and it's a liquid...add temp and it's a vapor). If your gauge doesn't show the different refrigerants you can download a pressure/temp chart off internet. Just record your high side pressure, and match it to 410A on the chart and thats your saturation temp. Okay you will find the required amount of subcooling on your maufacturing plate of unit or in users manual. Now we need a decent thermometer, preferably digital, and put it on the line coming out of the condenser at the bottom. This is the point that all freon should now be a liquid. In order to ensure this we "subcool" the freon an extra 10-15 degrees. Whatever your manufacturer calls for. As you add freon this temp is gonna drop. Keep an eye on the pressure too. Match them up until you get the desired amount of subcooling. Only add a little at a time, and wait 15 minutes beween adding more to allow unit to equalize. Good luck!!!


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## hvaclover

jsherrill77 said:


> Okay, since this is a TXV system you must check charge by subcooling method and not superheat. It's really not to difficult to do. First you hook up your gauges. let system run for 15 minutes. If your gauges also show different refrigerants you won't even need a pressure/temp chart. Just follow needle down from pressure reading until you get to 410A, and that'll be your saturation temp. (the point at which the freon is completely saturated... drop temp anymore and it's a liquid...add temp and it's a vapor). If your gauge doesn't show the different refrigerants you can download a pressure/temp chart off internet. Just record your high side pressure, and match it to 410A on the chart and thats your saturation temp. Okay you will find the required amount of subcooling on your maufacturing plate of unit or in users manual. Now we need a decent thermometer, preferably digital, and put it on the line coming out of the condenser at the bottom. This is the point that all freon should now be a liquid. In order to ensure this we "subcool" the freon an extra 10-15 degrees. Whatever your manufacturer calls for. As you add freon this temp is gonna drop. Keep an eye on the pressure too. Match them up until you get the desired amount of subcooling. Only add a little at a time, and wait 15 minutes beween adding more to allow unit to equalize. Good luck!!!


Dude, you for got the most important factor: SUFFICIENT AIFLOW.

if he's pushing more or less air than he needs the reading won't mean diddly squat. And the wet bulb air entering and out side ambient are going to play into this big time.


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## integlikewhoa

Ok guys, so I found what i was looking for, inside the unit behind the door in an envlope. I was reading the install instructions but couldnt find what I was looking for. Now I found it. So it tells me it charged for 15ft. for 20ft add 3 0z. and for 30ft add 9 oz. I can do the math for for 22ft. It also shows me some pressure curves and refrigerant charing curves for the first and 2nd stages. 

Also my guages do have the diff frieons on them, 404, 410 and 22. Different colors each and inside the normal pressure readings. Thanks for your guys help. One more quick question off the charging topic. 

The outside unit has 3 wires im hooking up. Y1, Y2 AND B. Now B is the common right? My 2 stage furnace has a B on it, but my W8835 zoning panel that connects to the furnace doesnt have a B. In the manual It shows the B connected to all 3, the thermostate, furnace and compressor. Im running 3 wire IAQ visionpro stats to the Honeywell zoning panel, then zoning panel to heater then off to the compressor. 
http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/PackedLit/68-0258ES.pdf page 5 and 6 shows wiring for the zone panel. 

http://www.butcherdistributors.com/Images/Interior/4ttx6.pdf Page 5 on this shows the ideal connetion. This is the condesning unit install guide. Everythign looks fine except the B. Im also running the heater now no problems and I dont have the B hooked up on the heater.


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## beenthere

jsherrill77 said:


> Okay, since this is a TXV system you must check charge by subcooling method and not superheat.


You should always check superheat.
Even with a TXV.
Other wise, you don't know if the TXV is feeding the evap coil enough refrigerant.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> You should always check superheat.
> Even with a TXV.
> Other wise, you don't know if the TXV is feeding the evap coil enough refrigerant.


Will do thanks. What u think on the wiring?


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## beenthere

You don't need B from the furnace to be connected to the zone panel, because the zone panel gets its power from the external transformer.

The outdoor unit will need its B hooked to the furnace though.

Are you going to use the IAQ's cool to dehumidify ability.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> You don't need B from the furnace to be connected to the zone panel, because the zone panel gets its power from the external transformer.
> 
> The outdoor unit will need its B hooked to the furnace though.
> 
> Are you going to use the IAQ's cool to dehumidify ability.


Yupppp


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## beenthere

Ok.
The 16i, has a draw back when using that feature, no matter what stat you use.

You can't slow the blower in first stage like you can other brands, or models.

When using cool to dehumidify on your 16i, you must enable Comfort r. So its keeps the blower as slow as possible.

You can also, wire the W8835 Y2 to the outdoor units Y2, but skip the BK terminal.
Then jumper R of the panel to the dhum1 teminal, and run a wire from dhum2 to the furnaces BK terminal.
And set the panel that it opens the dhum teminals on a call to dehumidify. 

That way, if the humidity rises while cooling in second stage. It will be able to slow the blower down.

Comfort r, only has effect for the first 10 minutes.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> You can also, wire the W8835 Y2 to the outdoor units Y2, but skip the BK terminal.
> Then jumper R of the panel to the dhum1 teminal, and run a wire from dhum2 to the furnaces BK terminal.
> And set the panel that it opens the dhum teminals on a call to dehumidify.


Whats the down side to this way? I have done a similer setup on the freash air vent. Is everything else the same? the furnace has a factory jumper between r and bk. those still ahve to be cut and everything? 
Also it ask for a jumper on the furance to be installed from R to O. Is all that the same?


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## integlikewhoa

The manual for the condensor asks for the furnace jumper from R to O. But the furance manuals says this 

" optional humidistate is to be connected between R and BK factory installed jumper R to BK on the circuit board must be cut if optional humidistae is used. The jumper must also be cut when applying an airflow command signal to the BK input such as with the variable speed single-zone and multi-zone system controllers. On signle speed cooling only / non heat pump systems, jumper Y to O for proper operation of the dely profiles and the humidistate. For two comperssor or two speed systems, jumper the YLO and O."

So which is it?


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## beenthere

Clip the R to BK jumper.

For the 16i, jumper either R to O.
Or jumper the panels Y1 to O, since the 16i shouldn't be wired to the Y/lo terminal, and it would have no power to energize the O terminal.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> Clip the R to BK jumper.
> 
> For the 16i, jumper either R to O.
> Or jumper the panels Y1 to O, since the 16i shouldn't be wired to the Y/lo terminal, and it would have no power to energize the O terminal.


Both energize at the same time either R or Y1.


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## beenthere

The 16i wires its first stage to Y/Y2, not Ylo/Y1.
Because the 16i runs at 67% not 50% like the 19i.
So Ylo/Y1 wouldn't be energized on a cooling call.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> The 16i wires its first stage to Y/Y2, not Ylo/Y1.
> Because the 16i runs at 67% not 50% like the 19i.
> So Ylo/Y1 wouldn't be energized on a cooling call.


Yea actually manual says 4TTX6 units require 80% airflow with Y1 first (first stage) and 100% airflow with Y2 (second stage).

So I'll clip the R to BK on the furnace, Jump the R to O on the furnace, Then jumper R of the W8835 panel to the dhum1 teminal, and run a wire from dhum2 to the furnaces BK terminal.

Then set the panel that it opens the dhum teminals on a call to dehumidify.

I'll then hook the condensor Y2 to BK on the furnace, Y1 on the condensor to the Y2 on the furnace and the B on the condensor to the B on the furnace. 

Everything Sound good? Did I forget anything? Thanks JIM


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## beenthere

Don't hook condenser Y2 to the furnace BK terminal.
That will defeat the dehumidify wiring of the W8835.

Only the wire from the dhum2 should go to the furnace BK terminal if you want to be able to keep humidity down when in second stage also.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> Don't hook condenser Y2 to the furnace BK terminal.
> That will defeat the dehumidify wiring of the W8835.
> 
> Only the wire from the dhum2 should go to the furnace BK terminal if you want to be able to keep humidity down when in second stage also.


Sorry I ment that. Will do. Thanks


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## integlikewhoa

So what do you think of this? Anything missing? JIM


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## integlikewhoa

N/m got it thanks. Stupid mistake and only involved a DIP switch in the wrong position.


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## beenthere

That happens.


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## COLDIRON

*Important*

I am not to familiar with Trane Equipment however when charging the unit and it's say below 82/ 85 deg and your outdoor unit has a two speed fan make sure you default to the high speed setting when charging or topping off.

Check wiring diagram or installation packet.:yes:


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## integlikewhoa

Thanks, It came with a P/T chart for both the 1st and 2nd stage for starting the charging process.


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## Yamvmax

integlikewhoa, are you interested in getting rid of the r410? If so let me know. thanks


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## integlikewhoa

If the price is right and your local I don't mind getting rid of it. I'm not going to bother trying to ship it. I did use a few OZ of it for my system. I have a scale here. Heres a place you can buy it and have it shipped. http://www.r22.org/prod_list.php?sci=18


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## Yamvmax

where are you from? I cant seem to pm you, does this site not have pm?


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## beenthere

You need X amount of post, before PM will work for you.


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## kenmac

And they sell to anyone ?? No EPA /Cert.card required ??


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## beenthere

No EPA cert is required to purchase R134A, or R410A.


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## integlikewhoa

beenthere said:


> You need X amount of post, before PM will work for you.


 Correct


beenthere said:


> No EPA cert is required to purchase R134A, or R410A.


And correct. 

Read the facts page on that web sight. #3 actually.


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## integlikewhoa

Also I'm Located in Arcadia CA if your not far I have some or I can point you to where I bought it for a new bottle. Or you can use that sight online. Hope this helps. Also how much do you need?


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## Yamvmax

integlikewhoa said:


> Also I'm Located in Arcadia CA if your not far I have some or I can point you to where I bought it for a new bottle. Or you can use that sight online. Hope this helps. Also how much do you need?


wow, i am in ny. I only need about 9 oz. I was gonna buy a set of gauges, and do it myself, but if i have to buy 25lbs, i may be better off hiring a pro, it might be cheaper. Thanks. ANY pros on here and live on LI, that would be interested?


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## integlikewhoa

Yamvmax said:


> wow, i am in ny. I only need about 9 oz. I was gonna buy a set of gauges, and do it myself, but if i have to buy 25lbs, i may be better off hiring a pro, it might be cheaper. Thanks. ANY pros on here and live on LI, that would be interested?


Yea I thought the same thing. I now have guages, 25lbs (24+ left) of freion and a scale. 

I was orgianally quoted 14k for a new install of a/c and heat same trane units but not extras. I have now spent around 6-7k with a 4 zoned system, UV, touch screen thermostates in every room and clean effects. So I haved saved alot. I sprayfoamed all my sheet metal way past R-8 and have R-8 flex. So im convinced that I spent way more time and effort into doing a better job then they would have for half the price and twice the features.


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## Yamvmax

integlikewhoa said:


> Yea I thought the same thing. I now have guages, 25lbs (24+ left) of freion and a scale.
> 
> I was orgianally quoted 14k for a new install of a/c and heat same trane units but not extras. I have now spent around 6-7k with a 4 zoned system, UV, touch screen thermostates in every room and clean effects. So I haved saved alot. I sprayfoamed all my sheet metal way past R-8 and have R-8 flex. So im convinced that I spent way more time and effort into doing a better job then they would have for half the price and twice the features.


 
Wow, i got quoted 5-6k just to add central air to my existing hot air system. I did it myself for 1/5th the price. I dont have enough posts, could you email me? i have a couple of questions. Thanks

[email protected]


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## hvaclover

Yamvmax said:


> Wow, i got quoted 5-6k just to add central air to my existing hot air system. I did it myself for 1/5th the price. I dont have enough posts, could you email me? i have a couple of questions. Thanks
> 
> [email protected]


:laughing:...ooohhhh if he only knew the down side...but he'll find out and he won't be happy.:laughing:


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## Yamvmax

hvaclover said:


> :laughing:...ooohhhh if he only knew the down side...but he'll find out and he won't be happy.:laughing:


 
?????????????????????????????????
What downside? Saving $$4.5K is a downside? Even if i have to hire a pro to add the whopping 7-10 oz of r410, i am way ahead.


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## integlikewhoa

Yamvmax said:


> Wow, i got quoted 5-6k just to add central air to my existing hot air system. I did it myself for 1/5th the price. I dont have enough posts, could you email me? i have a couple of questions. Thanks
> 
> [email protected]



What qestions do you have? No better place to ask them, then here, I'm very far from a pro, and you would get much better anwsers from them.


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## Yamvmax

if i dont hire a pro to add the 410, i am guessing you put the 410can on a dig scale and add about 6 oz, then check superheat? i know the 410 needs to be added as a liquid, so it gets added on the liquid side, correct?


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## kenmac

beenthere said:


> No EPA cert is required to purchase R134A, or R410A.


 
I was &( should have mentioned) refering to the R22 & other refrigerants they sell


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## integlikewhoa

Yamvmax said:


> if i dont hire a pro to add the 410, i am guessing you put the 410can on a dig scale and add about 6 oz, then check superheat? i know the 410 needs to be added as a liquid, so it gets added on the liquid side, correct?


Bottle upside down and high side guages cracked open a small bit to flow the 410. You need a a/c scale. I think mine was 200.00 or so but there is some a bit cheaper. Should still cost you 150.00 or so for a scale.


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## integlikewhoa

Also you need quick dissconnect or " low loss fittings" added to your guages. This is a must! Trying to dissconnect your guages after you have charged without them, you will not only cause harm to the tree huggers, but you will loose alot of freion out of your system (which requires you to reconnect only to do the same thing all over again), freeze your fingers off (frost bite) and make a big mess (oil and freion all over your hoses, new unit and the cement).
Top right corner of this link. http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/stride-tool-inc-1291/hvacr-catalog-4331/page-16-fullsize.html


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## Yamvmax

wow, it will be cheaper to hire a pro to add and adjust. i guess i will go that route. thanks


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## kenmac

Here is a video from Lennox for charging a system with 410 http://www.lennoxcommercial.com/res/pres/elearning-r410a/flash/chpt16.swf


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## RG11

bump bump


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## Plumber101

That's a good question.

Was the old system r-22?

Did you flush the lines?

Did you pull a vac.

Did you change the coil?

Did you use super heat or sub cooling to charge with?

What are the pressures now?

What is the outside temp?

And the most important have you done this before?


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## SKIP4661

Hopefully you put the evaporator and 22 feet of lineset in a deep vaccum before you charged the system. Otherwise bye-bye compressor.


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## integlikewhoa

SKIP4661 said:


> Hopefully you put the evaporator and 22 feet of lineset in a deep vaccum before you charged the system. Otherwise bye-bye compressor.


Not sure who this was referring to, but I myself vacuumed for several hours and let sit over night with a vacuum in it before charging the next day. A/C been hard at work here in LA California area for around 4 months now.

Only problem I'm working on now is the PVC condensation lines from the coil in the attic are sweating (actually noticed it yesterday, but probley been happening for some time), and I need to insulate it.


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## integlikewhoa

What question you refering to? Asumming the original post. 

There was no old system. No central ac before. 

New lines. New install

Vac pulled for several hours and sat with Vac over night for final leak check. 

Coil new. 

Both methods used.

Couldn't tell you anymore Its been up and running for several months. 

And at that time no never done it, But theres a first for everything and everyone. Now I can say I have. 




Plumber101 said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> Was the old system r-22?
> 
> Did you flush the lines?
> 
> Did you pull a vac.
> 
> Did you change the coil?
> 
> Did you use super heat or sub cooling to charge with?
> 
> What are the pressures now?
> 
> What is the outside temp?
> 
> And the most important have you done this before?


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## clocert

Poor guy, they told you too much. unless you are a professional, you won't be able to do subcool or super heat correctly, simply because you don't have the equipment. If I were you, I add a little 410a to the system and at the same time watch the pressure gage and make sure they reach the numbers in your munaul. usually 150/350, if that does not work, call an A/C tech.


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## beenthere

clocert said:


> Poor guy, they told you too much. unless you are a professional, you won't be able to do subcool or super heat correctly, simply because you don't have the equipment. If I were you, I add a little 410a to the system and at the same time watch the pressure gage and make sure they reach the numbers in your munaul. usually 150/350, if that does not work, call an A/C tech.



I don't know. He id this back in 2008 and 2009, and hasn't come back and aid he had problems with the charge.


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## integlikewhoa

Your right, haven't been back cuz all has been working good. Got 90% full 410 can in my garage set of guages and a scale I haven't used in years. But I think I'm over due to check it out again.


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