# lay travertine floor or install kitchen cabinets first?



## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

I have searched forums but cannot find much, and I understand that there are pros and cons to both options, but would still welcome more input.
Do I install travertine flooring first or kitchen cabinets first?
I have removed old flooring and old kitchen cabinets.
Kitchen is totally bare except for short water pipes coming from floor.
I have a concrete floor (ok condition flat)
I will probably use a professional to install travertine, but do cabinets myself.
Time is not a concern, Kitchen and floor do not have to be rushed.
We can live without a kitchen for a few more days or weeks.
I would rather do what is best.
Thanks for any help.


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## Floorwizard (Dec 5, 2003)

More cabinets on the floor means less travertine needed to finish floor = less money and the job still looks great.
No brainer IMO


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll vote the other way. I like the floor down first. Less of a chance for clearance problems with dishwasher and no need for a trim piece to cover the tile/cabinet joint. Just lay the travertine an inch under the cabinets and fill in the rest with a material of equal thickness.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Floor first, as all height measurements for base cabinets and wall cabinets, dishwasher, fridge etc start from the floor height. You don't want to tile 'up to' a base cabinet, you want the cabinets to sit on the floor.


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> Floor first, as all height measurements for base cabinets and wall cabinets, dishwasher, fridge etc start from the floor height. You don't want to tile 'up to' a base cabinet, you want the cabinets to sit on the floor.


and that is the problem...
I have been measuring and marking wall cabs and base cabs and have not been able to resolve every problem due to appliances and high pantry. Basically high pantry cabinet next to fridge which has a wall cab directly above it. Pantry has normal wall cabs and base cabs other side of it.
If I tile under fridge as normal, this raises fridge 3/4" which raises wall cab above it, which means it no longer lines up at top with pantry.
If I address this by also raising pantry 3/4" then bottom of pantry door no longer lines up with base cabs drawers. So icould raise the base cabs, then I end up raising everything so why not just tile the whole floor to begin with.
Yes, I understand some tiles will not be seen and so waste some money but i have to tile under range, fridge and dishwasher anyway.


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

Floorwizard said:


> More cabinets on the floor means less travertine needed to finish floor = less money and the job still looks great.
> No brainer IMO


I understand that tiles under cabs are a waste of money. If I tile up to cabs, would you recommend still raising cabs to level of new tile floor, or leave cabs directly on top of concrete?


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## Shifterson (Mar 5, 2009)

floor first, you may want to re-design at a later date. you limit your ability to re-model your kitchen if you're working around where you layed the floor. Cheaper to do it now in the long run. You'll be able to chance it anyway you want and still have a great looking floor. If know 100% you'll NEVER want to re-model I guess saving a buck or two now might work.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

So as I have it right - and correct me if I misread your post - but you have no floor, nor base cabinets BUT you do have existing wall cabinets?

That to me screams out "mismatching base and wall cabinets"...:laughing:

But OK, lets say you want new base cabinets only. If you put the tiles 'up to' the new cabinets, it might look OK, but for the appliances you either tile right up to the wall (in which case you have your current problem) or you tile right up to the appliances (in which case you have a problem getting the appliance out for servicing). 

Since we service our appliances more often that we remodel kitchens, it makes sense to tile right to the walls. And, if you want to keep the old wall cabinets, then you're going to have to live with the odd repair job, or misfitting parts here and there, goes with the territory. 

But as far as tiling the floor goes, the savings of, what, $3 a sqft (?) under the cabinets is made up for the extra cutting it takes to make tiles fit. Best is to tile right up to the walls even around the pipes.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Install the floor first when ever possible. No brainer. :laughing:

Although it is possible to save some tiles? (Maybe not?) If you install the cabinets first, you will need to shim them more, plus the tilework will be more difficult to do and you increase the possibility of scuffing the cabinets too. I would charge more if the cabinets were in. 

Jaz


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

ccarlisle said:


> So as I have it right - and correct me if I misread your post - but you have no floor, nor base cabinets BUT you do have existing wall cabinets?
> 
> That to me screams out "mismatching base and wall cabinets"...:laughing:
> 
> ...


sorry for any confusion.
no, right now there is nothing in my kitchen. bare walls and bare floors.
New kitchen has been delivered and sitting in my garage.
new appliances are also delivered and waiting to be installed.
I have been unpacking and measuring and "trying" wall cabs and base cabs.

By doing this I have identified potential problems, including height of wall cabs and base cabs with and without flooring. 
In particular the problem with cab above fridge and pantry,
and potential mismatching height problem with sink cab and dishwasher cab if I tiled under DW but not under sink cab.

so brand new clean kitchen space, brand new floor, brand new cabs.


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

JazMan said:


> Install the floor first when ever possible. No brainer. :laughing:
> 
> Although it is possible to save some tiles? (Maybe not?) If you install the cabinets first, you will need to shim them more, plus the tilework will be more difficult to do and you increase the possibility of scuffing the cabinets too. I would charge more if the cabinets were in.
> 
> Jaz


Thanks for the advice. I think I agree and I am beginning to think this is the safest way to proceed.
so that's 2 "no-brainers"
1 for cabs first, 1 for floor first.
That's why I love getting different opinions.

Thing is my concrete floor is in excellent condition and so chances are base cabs are likely to need more levelling shimming on top of tiles.

Thanks


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

Thanks for everybody's input. I do appreciate it.

Here's what I think it comes down to.
Laying base cabs directly on concrete floor will cause height problems with the base cabs that house appliances. Some cabs will be on 3/4" of top of tile, some will not be.

so options are;
OPTION 1 - install kitchen first, lay directly on concrete anyway and fix the height problems as they arise.

OPTION 2 - If I want to install kitchen first, install all base cabs that will not house appliances approx 3/4 off of floor so that these match the base cabs that will house appliances and be tiled. This way all base cabs will match height.

or

OPTION 3 - lay floor tiles first wall to wall and then install kitchen over the top of floor.


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## R&D Tile (Feb 6, 2006)

Boy oh boy, when installing all new everything, measure where the cabs will go and mark out on the floor where they will end, tile just beyond that mark, tile all the way in the areas of the range, fridge and dishwasher, no need to waste all that tile under the cabs.

This way they still rest on the tile without having to cut around them, place scrap cuts along the back walls for the cabs to sit, if no scraps, just as easy to throw down some plywood strips the same height as the tiled floor, then shim and install the cabs as normal.

NO BRAINER.:laughing:


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

Yup I agree!:thumbsup:

So the "No brainer" score is; The 2 tile guys say tile before when ever possible, and the vinyl & laminate guy says cut around the cabinets! :whistling2:

Oopps, sorry it's 4 to 1 I think? 

Jaz


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

In my humble opinion I would tile right to the wall, as stated you have the option of changing layout in future, also if you sell it is a good selling point. Also if you do have a leak from your dishwasher, sink or fridge ( if you have water to it), then it will not get under your tiles and potentially lift them. Tile the whole thing.

cheers


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

I've not seen a consensus on this matter, ever, (and I probably never will) so it really comes down to what each installer feels comfortable with, whether or not they do the job themselves - or sub it out (the only person who tiled _last_ was one who wanted to make sure the cabinets guys didn't mess up his floor, so he always tiled last). So, this ain't no 'NO BRAINER...'

More often than not, DIYers have the same intentions as pros do in matters such as this; I mean, they both want the best 'look' possible, they want the most ease of use, perhaps lowest maintenance, they want it done as efficiently as possible and at the lowest overall cost. Here, there are certain problems I'd be more concerned with than saving a few bucks on tiles under a cabinets...put another way, "saving money" has never dictated the way to go over "proper install". And the reason is that the pro usually has a better grip on a long term vision, whereas the DIYer only see his/her own situation. For example, there are certain plumbing fixtures we recommend, because they have a better track record for repairs. More expensive yes, but _worth it in the long run. _A DIYer might think that saving $35 on a cheaper faucet is $35 in his pocket - until a year later he has to fork out $150 to have someone come in and replace it...

That's why IMO it is better in the long run to tile first and forget about saving a few bucks. You'll probably pay that back in the end.:laughing: 

We like to put tiles down in relation to the cabinets... not "just up to the wall" as we don't like cabinets sitting on grout lines. It has to look good _and_ be done (what we think is) "right". So watch it for 12 inch tiles under 24" cabinet bases...

At the same time, ironing out upper cabinet height problems is easy for us, as compared to tiling problems. Plus, we like to let people know all the pitfalls of the way we do things after we leave. I don't want a call-back in three years time asking us why we didn't tell them that our job makes remodelling of their kitchen impossible because the appliances are stuck in...:no:

So, sure you'll get pro and DIY opinions on this - and everything. There's no "right" way, I guess, just the most-used way amongst people who do this for a living. :wink: 

One thing I would address long before we debate over the tile situation is whether or not your floor is suitable for tiling - a matter no-one has thought to address with this poster...I'd spend my time there first:yes:


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## Floorwizard (Dec 5, 2003)

The fact is you can do whatever you want. We are all right.

I think at 10-15 bucks a square foot x 40 sq ft of cabs = $400 bucks.
If the installer will charge more for existing cabs then weigh that option.
If your appliances wont fit than weigh that option. (however they come with adjustable feet friends....)
Installers want it as easy as possible and that's fine...as long as they charge less...you will find that not a whole lot will do so-
Forget future remodel...you cannot remove cabs, move them, and still have a great looking floor without alot of work....so forget that option.

You are the boss. you know your home...so weigh all this great advice and make a good choice.

good luck.



> Yup I agree!
> 
> So the "No brainer" score is; The 2 tile guys say tile before when ever possible, and the vinyl & laminate guy says cut around the cabinets!
> 
> Oopps, sorry it's 4 to 1 I think?


Figures you would count.
Doesn't matter anyway....
Best choice is not always the majority on any specific thread.


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## JazMan (Feb 17, 2007)

All kidding aside, either way is right. Just that it's easier to tile first, and as long as the next group of workers do not trash the floor, I recommend it.

There is no way you're gonna save 40 ft. in the typical kitchen though. Cabinets' footprint is 21", so you'll save one ft. per lin. ft. and take more time doing the job. You're cheating yourself if you charge the same per ft. for doing it either way. Less sq, ft. = more time. Not too smart. :no:

Jaz


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

right on JAZMAN


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

A few years ago I had to remove my dishwasher. The existing flooring was only brought up to the front of the dishwasher instead of under it. It was not a built-in (under the counter) type, it was just sitting next to the cabinets. When the dishwasher came out, there in all it's glory was a massive eyesore. I wasn't putting a dishwasher back in that space, so I built-up the area where the dishwasher had been and replaced all of the flooring in the kitchen. Just for kicks-n-grins, I put the new flooring under the stove and fridge also, as well as under one cabinet that could be pulled away from the wall. I didn't know how to pull out all of the base cabinets or I would have run the new flooring under them as well because some day all of the cabinets have to be replaced. It would be nice to not have to replace all of the flooring again when that day comes.

Because of the kitchen floor experience, when I gutted my bathroom 2 years later, I made sure that I tiled the full floor before installing the cabinet. 

IMHO, you should just spend the few extra dollars and the few extra minutes and tile the full floor before installing the base cabs. Anyway, the wood cabinets shouldn't be coming in direct contact with the cement floor.


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses guys.
Called the floor guy. He is going to lay the floor first - wall to wall.


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## vsheetz (Sep 28, 2008)

A thought for cabinets first, floor second - if you want to change the floor later, you can do so without disturbing the cabinets.


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Don't think laying $6/sq ft travertine is something you'd be changing your mind about. 30-cent vinyl tiles maybe, but not natural stone. 

Best not to install in the first place rather than say: "Oops! don't like it... take it out. I've changed my mind" 
:no:


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

To carry this question one step further when redoing the floor in an existing kitchen. 

Would you guys remove the existing base cabinets, install a new floor wall to wall and then reinstall the base cabinets?

I know this would solve my dishwasher height problems and ensure the cabinets are level for the installation of granite countertops. But is the juice worth the squeeze?


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## ccarlisle (Jul 2, 2008)

Not if they were the old style, built-ins - but we'd consider it for the newer screwed-into-studs base cabinets.


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## Floorwizard (Dec 5, 2003)

I wouldn't remove cabs just to install a new floor.


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## fixrite (Mar 1, 2009)

Removing the base units it exactly what I did in my last house and was glad I did. I found some rotten flooring from a long ago leak, not to mention the young couple that purchased the house from us was glad because they had plans for the kitchen but loved the tile flooring. 

cheers


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## palacenil (Mar 6, 2009)

just to finish this thread off.
Flooring installed first, great, wall to wall.
Wall cabinets went in without any problems. tops all lined up well with tall pantry.
Base floor cabinets went in without any problems. Floor very even, very few shims required.
Thanks for the help, comments, opinions.


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## gma2rjc (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm glad it all went well for you, enjoy your new kitchen! Thanks for letting us know how it turned out.


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## Floorwizard (Dec 5, 2003)

Right on.....


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## drtbk4ever (Dec 29, 2008)

Photos please.


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## mackflynn (Jul 29, 2010)

Your choices are between doing it the RIGHT way and doing it the EASY way. 

If you want to do the job properly, install the FLOOR FIRST. Makes all your heights proper, and you'll run into less problems down the road. 

If you want to save money, or if you already have base cabinets and you don't want to remove them and reinstall them, then install your floor around them. However you may run into problems down the road, and you'll be wondering why your counter-tops feel too low all of a sudden. Also, with the amount of extra time you'll spend cutting around and trimming all the extra edges, you may find yourself wishing you had taken them out in the first place, and that the "easy" way wasn't so easy after all. 

It's much simpler to install a floor in a square, open room, than one with finished pieces already installed. (and therefore the end result will look better too). As with any construction project, start with the bottom, and work your way up. :thumbup:


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