# Attaching Porch shed roof to Brick Veneer



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

hello, just about to start building a screened in porch roof over and existing deck..The roof will be a 4/12 pitch shed roof coming straight off the back of the home and over the deck area.

The biggest challenge is attaching the structure (Ridge Board) to the back of the house (Brick). Has anyone dealt with this before? Typically, if this is siding, you simply remove the siding, flash, and attached the Ridge board directly to your studs..But we are dealing with 3 story of Brick

We had an engineer come out today. Basically we agree to leave the brick alone and attach it with 5/8" bolts through the brick. Using Bolts like you would a deck ban board. Upstairs on the outside wall, we are going to remove the Sheetrock under the upstairs window sills and put 2 x 10 blocking between the studs...and if we can access between the brick and sheathing,we will add some blocks, so that the bolts upon tightening up will not stress the veneer. (hope this makes sense)

Anybody dealt with this before, and if so, things you learned? Thank you

Steve
NC


----------



## Just Bill (Dec 21, 2008)

Yes, you do not want to attach the ledger to the brick, but thru the brick into the house framing. You will need a permit for this, for which you need detailed drawings for fastening the ledger. They will rule on those drawings.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

so you agree that the blocking in between studs and bolts thru the wall is the proper method here? I don't see a better way.. You have to cut the sheetrock from inside, so you can add blocking, fasten and see the bolts for inspection etc

Leave the brick along right? Your getting into brick lentil and everything else if we open up the brick wall...

Then counter flash the roof, by saw cutting into the brick/mortar

Yes, we are getting permits, drawings, engineer letters etc..

Just never done an add on project thru brick, I am still slightly nervous about it..

It's not my house  and it's a 700k house! Can't let anything go wrong


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> hello, just about to start building a screened in porch roof over and existing deck..The roof will be a 4/12 pitch shed roof coming straight off the back of the home and over the deck area.
> 
> The biggest challenge is attaching the structure (Ridge Board) to the back of the house (Brick). Has anyone dealt with this before? Typically, if this is siding, you simply remove the siding, flash, and attached the Ridge board directly to your studs..But we are dealing with 3 story of Brick
> 
> ...


The brick needs to be removed, was this "Engineer" a P.E.?

If you install this roof improperly, when it comes down, not if it comes down, it may kill or seriously hurt someone.

You should hire a competent licensed contractor for this job as you are definately way over your head.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Althought I am not licenced, I have been a home builder(for a large corportation) for a number of years and have done renovations for years on my own, as "owner" of numerous properties. I flip properties professionally for last 6 years. So I take offense you say I am over my head. I have almost 20 years experience. Now, I come here to seek advise.. I am not a weekend warrior. I have never had a situation like this one, ok?

I am not doing this work, I am over seeing the project. as GC. I have the trust of the people on this project.

#2 this apparently isn't done often in NC because 95% of the houses are siding, which is cake walk compared to dealing with this brick that is 3 stories high..

Cutting the brick 20 feet up the wall, which would need to be 21 feet wide and no less than 1.5' down is a huge removal of brick right in the middle of the house in order to place the ridge board directly to the framing like you would preferred to do. Ok, so you risk loosing all the brick above you doing this..Just not an easy solution

Messing with the brick is not a great option.. 

And yes this Engineer has PE,


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Additionally, my only concern is cracking the brick...It will be impossible for roof to fall if you comprehend how we are bolting the Ridge board thru the brick into blocking secured into the framing of the house.. Impossible!

I just don't want to stress the veneer


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Althought I am not licenced, I have been a home builder(for a large corportation) for a number of years and have done renovations for years on my own, as "owner" of numerous properties. I flip properties professionally for last 6 years. So I take offense you say I am over my head. I have almost 20 years experience. Now, I come here to seek advise.. I am not a weekend warrior. I have never had a situation like this one, ok?
> 
> I am not doing this work, I am over seeing the project. as GC. I have the trust of the people on this project.
> 
> ...


If you are not licensed how can you claim to be a professional?

If you are so good, why not get licensed?

Does your client know you don't have a license and are asking advice on how to do the job on the internet?

If you are not over your head in this project, why do you need to come on a forum and ask for advice especially after consulting an Engineer?

BTW I am a Licensed Professional Contractor, I currently have a Certified Building Contractors License and a Certified Air Conditioning Contractors License.

If you are worried about the brick cracking (as you should be) then why would you even consider bolting through it?

When it cracks and crumbles it will lose its integrity and the Brick is a veneer not a structural element.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok Mr, Bwelley, your just here to flame...

Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board, but we dont' have access to the bolting unless we open the wall, nor the ban, we have to create blocking.. 

You obviously don't understand the situation, as I am sure I have done a poor job of explaining it.

I don't have to be a licenced contractor to renovate my own properties. I am simply going to a project for a friend. Now, I have considered doing personal renovations for other people, as flipping properties doesn't look great right now. Thus, I am considered this job and doing this more often.

Getting a licence will never supersede my experience.. It only makes the Home owner feel better, but everyone knows that has done this long enough, it doesn't mean you know what you are doing or do business ethically, etc. At some point I may decide to do so.. And yes my client knows I don't have a license.. They have seen my work, so it's not an issue of trust or crediabilty. 

Getting that GC license won't suddenly make me qualified for dealing with brick relative to the scope of this project....

I just thought someone here might have some experience in a similar situation. An engineer might give you 3 or 4 options. 

Like anyone with experience, you never stop learning new things, I am not coming here as a know it all, rather for some advise . Perhaps, I have choosen the wrong forum


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Ok Mr, Bwelley, your just here to flame...
> 
> Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board, but we dont' access to the bolting unless we open the wall..
> 
> ...


Getting licensed does not make you a better contractor, it makes you a legal contractor.

Not sure how hard it is to get licensed in NC, but I know Florida where I am licensed at is the Hardest of all 50 states to get a license in.

You said you don't need a license to work on your own house, yet you said you are working as a GC for a client on a 700K house.

Seems to me you need to be licensed for what you are doing and since yo are seeking advice on a DIY webiste, you are obviously in over your head, I hope your job does not end up seriously hurting or killing someone.

Painting and caulking a house to flip it is one thing, structural work is to be done by the professionals, just because you have watched a few TV shows, does not make you a pro.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Bwalley, 

Seriously, your just here to try rile me up instead of being helpful.

I have built from the ground up over 500 homes in my lifetime, as a superintendent, but I am in over my head on attaching a little shed roof to brick veneer. The engineer and the first poster agree with what I am doing, yet you as an HVAC contractor are telling me I might kill someone

makes a lot of sense

Thanks for being un helpful...

I am really just looking for reassurance.. from someone who actually has had a similar project. Residential construction is not rocket science..


----------



## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

"*Decks get bolted thru the brick into the house bans all the time..we are basically doing the same thing with a ridge board,"*

At least for deck ledgers, the 2007 supplement would require this to be an engineered system:

_R502.2.2.2 Alternate deck ledger
connections. Deck ledger connections not
conforming to Table R502.2.2.1 shall be
designed in accordance with accepted engineering
practice. Girders supporting deck
joists shall not be supported on deck ledgers
or band joists. Deck ledgers shall not be
supported on stone or masonry veneer._

You are prohibited from supporting a ledger on brick veneer ("_Deck ledgers shall not be supported on stone or masonry veneer._"), so you need some other method of support to the structure behind it.

The method proposed for attaching this roof ("blocking in between studs") would not comply with _R502.2.2.1 (connection to "a 2-inch nominal band joist bearing a sill or wall plate"")_ if it was a deck connection, it would need to be_ "designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice_". 

Which would for example include some method of preventing downwards forces being applied to the brick veneer where the supports ("and bolts thru the wall") pass thought the veneer (which would which mean the ledger was supported by the brick).

Now, this is for _deck _ledgers, but it does provide some practical reasons to suppose that you need to pay careful attention to your roof attachment - the ledger attachments requirements in the 2007 supplement resulted from a history of deck failures at their ledger attachment to the structure, and especially if you are an area where substantial snow loads are expected your shed roof will be experiencing loads similar to those that resulted in many of these decks collapses.

Another question to consider are zoning and other building code requirements - once you start putting a permanent roof over an existing deck you are often creating a usage which falls under different zoning requirements and always creating a structure with potentially different building code requirements, for example in terms of required foundations.

From my perspective as a home inspector I see this particular configuration - a shed roof attached to an existing structure over a deck or patio - create frequent problems for sellers; often when I see such roofs there are obvious deficiencies in the connection to the structure, always when I see one I recommend that the buyer have the seller demonstrate that the roof was properly permitted and inspected.

If the seller cannot demonstrate this, I recommend that the buyer conduct a permit search to determine if the porch was constructed in accordance with local regulations.

Quite often, it was not.

Usually the seller ends up giving the buyer a significant credit for replacement or repair, sometimes the seller finds - especially in this economy - that the building department is now looking at them as a revenue source, and imposes a fine for unpermitted construction - and at least in my area the fact that you "flip properties professionally" may incline them to cut you less slack than they would in the case of a homeowner who might be supposed to have innocently constructed such a roof in ignorance of zoning and building code requirements.

-----------------


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Thank you Micheal

All significant projects I do are permitted, approved by HOA, and inspected and engineered. My biggest concern is dealing with the brick, 

concerning ledger boards, I don't like them, but they do accept them in NC, I like simpson hangers.

Perhaps we are getting termalogy confused here on the internet, but we are talking about a 2 x 10 Ridge board attached on the surface of the Brick, and bolted thru the brick and into solid framing.. Bolt size and OC" patterns will all be engineered and built per Engineer specs, loads calculations, and inspected by the city inspectors. No worries for resale here on this project for the HO. Above board, above reproach

Ledgers are in my mind are the 2 x 2 strips of treated lumber often used in place of simpson hangers.. Not talking about that here. 

The ridge board or Ban board is where the 2 x 8 rafters will attach at the top of the shed roof to the back of the house (2 x 10 bolted to the veneer). Instead of pulling the brick, we are engineering a method over the veneer, thru the veneer and bolted to the house.. The orignal home builder ( 1 year ago) did the same exact thing with the deck ban...Clearly they bricked the house first, then added the deck..after the brick was complete. I didn't see any flashing, and this is why.

I am basically doing the same thing, building a shed roof after the brick was complete, but I don't have a crawl space to access the bolts, nor a house ban... so I have I have to cut the wall, get access, add blocking and then bolt it, and have all this engineered and inspected before we cover and proceed


----------



## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

"Ledger", to deck builders and an AHJ, usually refers a member which is attached to the structure, and to which joists are attached, usually with joist hangers, see for example fig 5 here: 

buildingcodes.jocogov.org/documents/Deck%20Book.pdf, 

thus the rough analogy to your "ridge board".

(I now see the source of the confusion, though, as you are referring to a "ledger" attached to a structural member, on which another members such as a joist sits - I suppose you could have a "ledger" attached to the "ledger" :huh

-------------------

In fact... Ha! Found a single drawing that illustrates _both_ types of ledgers!











------------------

You've now got me curious about exactly how the IRC governs your situation, if I find an answer I'll post it here - very likely, though, yours is going to be a situation where an "engineered solution" (as you are providing) is required.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Micheal, thank you for the post..

yes, the code book and actual field terminology are mixed up many times. I am calling the "ledger board" in your drawing the Exterior Ban board (for a deck) or in my roof analogy the "Ridge board." Anytime we are dealing with custom rafters, the top connection is always referred to as the Ridge, I call that a Ridge board anyways...just a one sided roof in the situation.. or Shed roof as a nick name.

Ledger boards around here are code words for, "I don't want to install Hangers :laughing: in holding up Joists on Decks.. Nailing patterns are accepted..but I won't do it..

Interesting enough, your drawing doesn't show the bolt going thru the Mason wall only midway. It Must be more of all Mason brick and block home or Crawl space foundation situation. 

Of course what we are dealing with here is a 3" Brick Veneer, with about 2 " space cavity, then the wall Sheathing, then 2 x 4 walls, insulation, and then sheetrock as a cross reference.. 

As you bolt the "ledger board" to the veneer, I am concerned about the space cavity.. we need to block that as well behind the sheathing..or we could stress the brick...Certainly don't want to over tighten the bolts.

many times people think Brick is what is holding the house up, it's purely a veneer just like siding.. Therefore, I have to attach to the structure not the veneer. I realize you know this, just pointing it out for other readers.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Bwalley,
> 
> Seriously, your just here to try rile me up instead of being helpful.
> 
> ...


If you have built over 500 homes, why do you need advice on this little project?

You have to make sure the wall can support the additional weight of the rof and any load that is applied to it, a 4/12 will hold snow won't it?

BTW I am not just an HVAC Contractor I am a State Certified Building Contractor, I have been licensed longer as a Building Contractor than I have been as an HVAC Contractor, next week I take the state exam for a Certified Plumbing Contractor as well, so I would say my credentials prove I know what I am talking about.

Residential contracting is not rocket science, but it is to be done by the professionals, you are not licensed and are in over your head on this, you should let the pro's do it.

If you know so much and have so much experience, why don't you get your contractors license?


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

Bwalley..:no:

I am seeking advise relative to this project because I have never had this type of situation in my 20 years. And it's not my 700k house.. I don't do renovation for homeowners!!! (I may in the future!) If it were my house I would not hesitate

(analogy) If you have never crossed a bridge before, does it hurt to ask someone about a possible pitfalls that has had this exactly type of situation? No one yet has chimed in and said "oh yeah, we did that before"..All I have received so far is you need an "Engineer" and "Permits" and city inspections. All of which I knew and have done before posting. 

Your the only one posting annoying posts.. What is your purpose here? what have you added so far? 

You clearly haven't taken the time to ponder or comprehend what has been typed, because if you did your ignorance would not be so obvious to those of us who know what is actually being discussed relative to dealing this brick. Proving that you studying for your licence gets you no where without experience..Legal yes, knowing what your doing, no! Which do Homeowner prefer? Well they prefer both. 

Bwelley, if your customer relations skills are as bad as you Internet skills, you will most certainly struggle..

I was approached to do this job for a friend, so I am taking it on. I am at the very beginning stages, Drawing plans, getting estimates, material take offs, getting permits apps, Hoa apps, getting the Engineer out, mulling over options, and figuring out exactly what the homeowner wants. If I find myself doing more homeowner jobs in the future, then I will get my license..


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> If you have built over 500 homes, why do you need advice on this little project?
> 
> You have to make sure the wall can support the additional weight of the rof and any load that is applied to it, a 4/12 will hold snow won't it?
> 
> ...


Ok Bwelley, I will give a chance to earn your salt here..

Your a licence professional correct?

Go back and carefully read the situation.

Then give us the Text book way, the Bwelley way to to this shed roof attached to a 3 story brick house... over an existing 20 ' x 12 ' deck. 

I can't wait to hear why you think that Brick is coming down is the way to do it.. I wish I had pictures to share, but you should be able to picture it in your mind with your expertise if you read.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Bwalley..:no:
> 
> I am seeking advise relative to this project because I have never had this type of situation in my 20 years. And it's not my 700k house.. I don't do renovation for homeowners!!! (I may in the future!) If it were my house I would not hesitate
> 
> ...


Part of the design criteria is going to have to take in the lateral deflection placed upon the structure as well as the additional weight added to the wall, your engineer will have to factor the live load and the dead load on the structure.

Having a P.E. look at it is one thing having a design professional do the engineering and design it properly is another thing.

You can not get it designed over the internet, especially when you pick and choose what information you are going to believe.

The price of the house is irrelevant, you should approach the job the same on a $50,000 house as you would a 1 million dollar house.

Safety is the 1st requirement that should be dealt with on any job, if you are not capable of doing the job correctly, you should not attempt on the job training with this project, driving across a bridge is one thing, building one is another.

My customers like me just fine because I know what I am doing and I don't take their safety lightly.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Ok Bwelley, I will give a chance to earn your salt here..
> 
> Your a licence professional correct?
> 
> ...


An engineer needs to design this, I am not a Professional Engineer.

Removng a couple of courses of brick will not cause the brick's above it to come down, once the brick is removed, you will need to shore up the brick, there are a few different ways to do this, a P.E. would need to tell you how to do this.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> An engineer needs to design this, I am not a Professional Engineer.
> 
> Removing a couple of courses of brick will not cause the brick's above it to come down, once the brick is removed, you will need to shore up the brick, there are a few different ways to do this, a P.E. would need to tell you how to do this.


One thing I didn't point is, the homeowner doesn't want to cut the brick (this has been discussed) 20 thousand upgrade they said...

the cut would have to be 21 ' wide and close a foot and a half in course of brick..a huge rectangular cut.. must get the 2 x 10 ledger or Ridge board and the rafter clearance.. It's a big hole...but a big hole or small, I guess it doesn't matter because it's not longer supporting the upper course.

Once the picture was given the homeowner they weren't too thrilled. Just don't want to chance jeopardizing the integrity of the brick above.. We have no idea how well the wall ties were done. 

On new construction, this shed roof would have been framed 5 1/2' off the wall, with treated 2 x6 look outs, and the brick layers would have basically brick on their way up thru the roof, no lintel needed, and continue. 

The PE doesn't have an issue going thru the brick.. The Deck is already done this way..as you may read in my other posts.

The PE that came out yesterday was young, so I have some concern with that , and I want to discuss this with the senior PE when he gets back in town. While I am confident in the plan, I just don't want to make a mistake on this very important issue.

My first instinct was to take it down, cut it...like you would siding...but then you consider the scope of weight above and homeowner anxiety..Then you find yourself looking for plan B.. Add blocking from inside and go thru the brick... If the Engineer blesses it well I suppose we are OK..

The thing with Engineers is they can come up all kinds of options..some are costly and some just don't feel right...So Engineers are humans too, and their judgment has to questioned just like anyone else... Some municipalities down here require the Engineer demonstrate his/her calculations.. Won't just accept their seal.

Thanks for the reply


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

If the homeowner does not want to cut the brick, I would not be involved with the job.

If the job is done properly, they will not even notice the brick that was removed, it sounds like they are hacking up a nice house by putting a shed roof on the porch.

The brick will self support, even if the ties are not attached very well, I have done enough demo of brick to know how well it will support itslef even when several courses below it are removed, I will see if I have any pictures of a job I demo'd that was brick on the 2nd floor.

From your posts you sound like you are acting as the GC, I thought in NC you had to have a license to be a GC.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

Look at my album, I posted a picture of a commercial job I am doing, look at the opening and see how at the top of it the Brick is self supporting itslef, there are no ties holding it to the beam behind the bricks.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> If the homeowner does not want to cut the brick, I would not be involved with the job.
> 
> If the job is done properly, they will not even notice the brick that was removed, it sounds like they are hacking up a nice house by putting a shed roof on the porch.
> 
> ...


Yes GC...HO signs off on the Permit....they schedule inspections... I met the inspectors and over see the entire project. Has to be under 30k


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Look at my album, I posted a picture of a commercial job I am doing, look at the opening and see how at the top of it the Brick is self supporting itslef, there are no ties holding it to the beam behind the bricks.


Hard to tell what I am look at in that photo...

Is it brick at the very top over the large middle opening? Looks like a large lentil is holding it up with posts on each side..

I don't see the revelence in your illustration to my project, but I appreciate the effort..

So you do commercial work mainly or both.. What do you do?


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Hard to tell what I am look at in that photo...
> 
> Is it brick at the very top over the large middle opening? Looks like a large lentil is holding it up with posts on each side..
> 
> ...


There is brick over the large opneing, there are no lintels on this project.

Click on the picture it will show you more detail, I will try to find others to show you.

I do commercial and residential, mostly residential remodeling, like high end kitfchens, baths and major renovations.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> There is brick over the large opneing, there are no lintels on this project.
> 
> Click on the picture it will show you more detail, I will try to find others to show you.
> 
> I do commercial and residential, mostly residential remodeling, like high end kitfchens, baths and major renovations.


 The picture won't blow up...no worries... I want to see something on the level I am talking about here in the situation..

I have read other forums tonight on this kind of project.. There is no cut and dry answer... Most remodelers on line admitted they don't come across Brick in the back...don't have to mess with it much.

Some layed out the exact plan I have with this engineer.. others suggest, "I don't know, get an engineer", and other hint at "removing the brick...but get an engineer"... :laughing: 

It's just brick.. but it creates some challenges even though the project is simple..

If I can't get confortable with it, I may pass on it. 

The over all plan is not a hack job, it will have really nice arches and phantom screens.. We don't have room for a Gable roof..

I have to discuss this more with the Senior PE.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

What I was trying to show you is how when even all of the bricks underneath the top courses are removed, the bricks will still support themselves.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> What I was trying to show you is how when even all of the bricks underneath the top courses are removed, the bricks will still support themselves.


 
Yes, but you don't plan to leave them in that state, correct.

I have torn down brick walls, I know they don't come down easy.

I am dealing with someone's new pride and joy.. You feel me on that? 

AS I continue to read tonight, many people can not agree on the proper way to attach a deck to a brick Veneer..

Some say, start and stop the Veneer, add the deck ledger, add lintel, flash and continue.. But that opens up lots of other moister problems

Some say yes, brick all the way up...Add ledger and bolt thru brick lagging thru the rim joist

Some agree, but some say take off the load by making it free standing thus adding additional footers at the foundation and beam up the perimeter..

3 ways, all strong opinions from all over the country with all kinds of experience.. 

The roof ledger board apparently is acceptable thur Brick but only with proper engineering. (which we are doing). The key is keeping most of the loads off the brick and into the structure... We did discuss about adding support beams down from the Deck up against the house.. 

maybe we should go ahead and do that and while we are add it make the deck free standing, right now it is supported with 4 footings, 4 6 x6 posts and 12" OC 2 x 8's..is about 4 feet above grade


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

Has your engineer even thought about the additional weight on the wall as well as the new lateral forces being placed on it?

There is more to adding a roof to an existing structure than bolting a ledger board through some bricks.

A competent licensed P.E. needs to design the project and a competent licensed contractor with experience in this area needs to do the work.

You say you are experienced but based on your own words, this is over your head.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Has your engineer even thought about the additional weight on the wall as well as the new lateral forces being placed on it?
> 
> There is more to adding a roof to an existing structure than bolting a ledger board through some bricks.
> 
> ...


You don't think too highly of us here in NC do you? :laughing:


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> You don't think too highly of us here in NC do you? :laughing:


I don't know why you would say that, my older brother lives in NC with his wife, their 2 kids and their grandson.

I don't think too highly of people who want to be a contractor yet they don't bother getting licensed, getting the homeowner to pull the permit is one way unlicensed people try to get around licensing laws.


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

bwalley said:


> I don't know why you would say that, my older brother lives in NC with his wife, their 2 kids and their grandson.
> 
> I don't think too highly of people who want to be a contractor yet they don't bother getting licensed, getting the homeowner to pull the permit is one way unlicensed people try to get around licensing laws.


All you have done is insult me in from the very beginning and almost every post,,,plus the engineer, as If we have never built anything before, just beginning or something.. and jumped to one conclusion to another with out care or thought to your words. Either you can't read or wont' read, or I am bad at explaining over the web here :laughing:

I think I explained our business model and why I don't have GC license.. Question, Should I run out get my GC for one project for a friend? This is very basic project management.. Those tests take lots of prep time...you can't just run down there and take the test and expect to pass.. 

Like I said, if I choose to do HO renovations in the future on a consistent bases, I will certainly work to do so. 

I work for me and on my own properties..Nothing unlawful about that..and our renovations are way above your assumptions of paint and caulk:laughing:. WE pull permits on all our renovations... Most do not!

Lay off the lecture on Licenced people being competent and legal.

I have met too many licenced businesses that are crooks, bad business managers, have low standards of quality workmanship and simply don't know how to handle homeowners. Zero people skills. 

A GC It's not the be all and end all.. I respect the fact you have worked hard and studied for yours...fine. Great... But based on your lack of respect for me and others you know little about, I wouldn't hire you.. This forum is not a good place to try to think you know someone.. If we met in person, we might have a mutual respect. 

I think if you market your business as a re modeler and you do this everyday for a living, then you should have your license.. Yes, we agree..

Now unless, you have something positive or constructive to add, lets end this back and forth...


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> All you have done is insult me in from the very beginning and almost every post,,,plus the engineer, as If we have never built anything before, just beginning or something.. and jumped to one conclusion to another with out care or thought to your words. Either you can't read or wont' read, or I am bad at explaining over the web here :laughing:
> 
> *I think I explained our business model and why I don't have GC license.. Question, Should I run out get my GC for one project for a friend? This is very basic project management.. Those tests take lots of prep time...you can't just run down there and take the test and expect to pass..*
> 
> ...


You are acting as a GC, yet you don't have a couple of hours to take the test??

In NC the Residential contractors exam is 2 hours, Building contractors exam is 3.5 hours.

With your 20 years experience it should be an easy test, I am sure I could pass it with no problem.

My Florida Certified Building Contractors exam was 19 hours over 2 days and I was able to pass it.

Since I already have 2 certified licenses my plumbing contractors exam i take next weds. will only be 9 hours.


----------



## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

We recently got our house appraised for a refi. The lady came out and started doing her thing, we got down to the unfinished basement and I made a comment about finishing it, and if we just painted the ceiling (and all the wires/plumbing/HVAC ducts etc.) black would that count? 

Her response was that she would count it but others may not. She went on to say that last night there was a big thread on the internet debating this very subject......in my mind I rolled my eyes. Look lady either it counts or it doesn't I don't want some internet warrior out here putting a value on my house based on a bunch of want-to-be home inspectors arguing about it on the internet.

Now do I really care that she was on the internet look for answers? No, she just assigns a value to our home. However, if the GC I hired to engineer a new beam to replace those stupid poles in the middle of our basement was on a DIY public chatroom looking for answers as to how to install it...well....that would tell me that I should have just done it all myself, as he didn't no what the **** he was doing.

I read the whole thread. I actually understand the problem. I say cut the rectangle in the brick, install your ledger the way God intended, and then finish the job. Why are you letting the homeowner tell you how to do it, you tell them how to do it and they write the check. You let them second guess you and the power has shifted. They start to wonder...hmmm....why didn't he think of that, or how is it that I the lowly homeowner was able to give the professional a useful solution......

Or just buy a few big ass umbrella's for the deck and call it good.....:whistling2:


----------



## concretemasonry (Oct 10, 2006)

Lust don't forget to cut out enough brick for the flashing over the ledger and under the moisture barrier above the brick.

Dick


----------



## ApexTiger (Feb 10, 2009)

harleysilo said:


> We recently got our house appraised for a refi. The lady came out and started doing her thing, we got down to the unfinished basement and I made a comment about finishing it, and if we just painted the ceiling (and all the wires/plumbing/HVAC ducts etc.) black would that count?
> 
> Her response was that she would count it but others may not. She went on to say that last night there was a big thread on the Internet debating this very subject......in my mind I rolled my eyes. Look lady either it counts or it doesn't I don't want some Internet warrior out here putting a value on my house based on a bunch of want-to-be home inspectors arguing about it on the Internet.
> 
> ...


 
Well thanks for the post

Your pretty jacked up too...I love the confidence..Just tear down that brick.. Well I got news for you, thats one way, not the only way!. I have spoken to 2 local professional licensed re-modelers this morning.. that deal with this exact situation in upscale neighborhoods.. There is no correct or wrong way.. It has to be engineered not matter what. They have done it on both ways.. and on new construction as I said earlier, the porches are framed 5 1/2" away from the wall, and the brick comes thru the porch(Visualize).. What does that tell you? The Ledger is not directly placed on the studs or rim joists..on new construction..It's blocked out.. That's how we did it 15 years ago in Texas, that how they do it here

Look there are many ways to engineer a problem or create a solution to what you want to do. Thats for Engineers.. A GC isn't an Engineer.. a GC is really nothing more than a project manager.. He hires competent licenced people like Plumbers, Electricians, HVAC and so on.. he isn't doing the actual work, his job is get the right people on the job. 

As I stated earlier, removing the brick was the first thing I brought to their attention.. But we both agree we would look at other options.

Yes I admit, I have never removed brick in the middle of a beautiful house in order to secure a ledger board.. I guess that makes me over my head. In your opinion..fine your entitled too that. Licensed or not, a contractor has to one day cross the bridge and figure the way.. 

I made a bad mistake coming here DYI (What was I thinking? LOL!...because you people must think everyone here is an idiot and yet your GC police to tell us how you know it all..Amazing

Your honesty is compounded with arrogance and folly. 

Are you done now?

Re-modeling construction is a process. and when challenges come up, decisions have to be made. simple as that. I am simply doing my due dilgence as any good GC would do before work begins.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

ApexTiger said:


> Well thanks for the post
> 
> Your pretty jacked up too...I love the confidence..Just tear down that brick.. Well I got news for you, thats one way, not the only way!. I have spoken to 2 local professional licensed re-modelers this morning.. that deal with this exact situation in upscale neighborhoods.. There is no correct or wrong way.. It has to be engineered not matter what. They have done it on both ways.. and on new construction as I said earlier, the porches are framed 5 1/2" away from the wall, and the brick comes thru the porch(Visualize).. What does that tell you? The Ledger is not directly placed on the studs or rim joists..on new construction..It's blocked out.. That's how we did it 15 years ago in Texas, that how they do it here
> 
> ...


Part of your due diligence would be getting properly licensed wouldn't it?

I am not aware of any good general contractor that needs to ask advice and shop for the answer he is looking for on a DIY forum.

What would you think of a Surgeon (licensed or not) who was going to operate on you asking for advice on a DIY forum?

Would you take your dog to a Vet that didn't have a license, even though he had been doing it over 20 years and treated 500 dogs in the past?


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Knock it off gentlemen. The flaming and attacks on peoples' knowledge and integrity will not be tolerated on this site. If a contractor wants to ask a question on this site they're welcome to do so, or they're also welcome to visit our sister site, www.contractortalk.com. 

This thread needs to get back on topic right now.


----------



## bwalley (Feb 10, 2009)

thekctermite said:


> Knock it off gentlemen. The flaming and attacks on peoples' knowledge and integrity will not be tolerated on this site. *If a contractor wants to ask a question on this site they're welcome to do so*, or they're also welcome to visit our sister site, www.contractortalk.com.
> 
> This thread needs to get back on topic right now.


What is your definition of a contractor?

Is a guy without a license having a Homeowner pulling a permit considered a contractor?


----------



## Michael Thomas (Jan 27, 2008)

To get back to where we were a while back, after a careful check I can't find any relevant code requirements beyond the requirement that the veneer wall support nothing but it's own weight.


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

bwalley said:


> What is your definition of a contractor?
> 
> Is a guy without a license having a Homeowner pulling a permit considered a contractor?


I would not recommend attempting to drag a site moderator into your little vortex. As stated in my previous post, this issue needs to be dropped right now. No more. Period.


----------



## Thurman (Feb 9, 2009)

It seems to me that there is too much mud slinging here and not enough attention being paid to the actual first post and problem. I would like to add this: I will start on a project tomorrow (Monday) where the homeowner has a Pergola built just three years ago. The person they hired stated that he was indeed a "Licensed Contractor" (which turned out to be not true, and his work showed so). The "contractor" attached sections of 2 x 6 PT lumber to the brick wall of the house using plastic anchors and dry wall screws, and in turn attached 2 x 6 x 12' long boards perpendicular to these on 6" centers for the Pergola. Some sections of the 2 x 6 ledgers have actually fallen off of the brick wall now as the dry wall screws have rusted out. The brick wall on the rear of the home, if viewed from the side has actually bowed out from the framing of the house by the weight of this Pergola, probably before parts of it fell. I DO NOT ever attach anything to a brick wall of a house which would use the brick wall for structural integrity. The homeowners did not even know that a brick wall is only for looks, it's just attached to the wall with little sheet metal brick ties. The new Pergola will be free standing on it's own 6 x6 post, new cross beams, and the 2 x 6's will be on 12" centers for looks now. Decorative pieces will be used on the corners on to brace the system together. So, to each his/her own, but I won't use a brick wall for support of another structure. That's just me, David


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I just removed two posts from this thread that were nothing short of mudslinging insults back and forth between two posters...After a pretty clear warning. 


*I said it once and I'll say it again, for the last time. If you can't be nice you don't need to be here, we don't need you here, and your account and IP address will be removed from this site permanently. If futher insulting posts are made in this thread, the offending poster will mysterioulsy find themselves unable to access DIY Chatroom the next time they come here to spread their bad mood around.*

This is a friendly online community and most of us like it that way. If you come here with intentions other than to nicely help people or nicely seek assistance, seek life elsewhere.


----------



## DyerWolf (May 5, 2007)

Apex

I'm interested in the answer you discovered. What did you end up doing?

Pics?

I'm thinking of doing the same job to my own house - but securing the roof through the brick has me stumped.


----------



## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

Your are looking a pretty old thread and I suspect you will not get an answer. My 2 cents worth... I never would attach anything structural to brick veneer and I would not bolt through it. I am not an contractor or an engineer but I have many projects under my belt and a fair understanding for residential construction.

From my prospective the problem with attaching to brick veneer is obvious so I will not get into that. The problem with bolting through the brick to the joist, rim joist or to blocking is less obvious. What you do not see is the space between the framing and the brick. So when you tighten the bolts you are pulling the brick and the framing together or at least causing stress in that direction. Even more critical, in effect you are creating a small lever with the bolt that rests (the fulcrum) on the brick veneer. Never should the brick veneer support anything but it own weight. So the only way I see to do something like this is to remove enough brick to get a solid connection to the framing. Or... be sure the roof is fully supported by some other means. If the roof is entirely supported by posts then maybe there is no problem bolting through the brick veneer to the rim joist or framing.

Rege


----------



## terra-man (Feb 16, 2010)

Do NOT remove brick with unsupported brick above. (It is scary that this has been suggested) I forensically reviewed a site where workers were seriously hurt doing this! Also, consider possible damages to watertightness of building paper or wrap. Keep the faith! I applaud your efforts to gain knowledge. I have worked on over 1000 homes and still encounter new issues!


----------



## RegeSullivan (Dec 8, 2006)

I am not suggesting removal of brick with out a supporting structure but simply that in order to get a solid connection brick will need to be removed. This would need to be done properly.


----------

