# Roofer punctured a/c freeon line



## Bobbyb4949 (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi, I tried to join on the Roofer Talk, but it was for contractors only. Site sent me here.

Soooo. I just got a new roof put on my house over the last 2 days. I have central air and heat. Anyway yesterday the first day of the roofing job everything was fine. I work nights, and yes I was able to sleep thru the roofers pounding. I woke up at 10:00 pm and the house was hot. A/C on but not blowing cold air. Went thru all possibilities, did contractor cover up outdoor a/c unit and cause it to overheat? That's what I first thought. I let him know I was calling a A/C guy to look at it. Heat wave coming. After about an hour he found that there was no freeon in the unit and went into the attic to look. There it was, a roofing nail had pierced the freeon line. I have paid half to the roofing contractor yesterday. Tomorrow he is to come out and do a walk thru and is expecting the 2nd half. Should I wait on paying him, that's what I think I should do. It is going to be fairly expensive to fix, they will have to replace the line and fill it with freeon. And I need it done ASAP.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Probably not the roofer's fault. Why was the line so close to the roof decking? If no protection was provided when the line was run, it falls back on the installer of the line.


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## yuri (Nov 29, 2008)

They don't have to replace the whole line. If the hole is not big then I would use sifoss/silver solder and lay a build up patch on it. I have done that many times.

Or if the line has bend room I would cut it and put a coupling on. Still going to be labor intensive and expensive. I would think it should be attached to the roof but have a spacer between it. Attic units are very rare where I am.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Line can be repaired with a coupling, should not need to be replaced.
I agree with Chandler48, I'd need to see that to believe it.
There's no reason any roofer would have been expected to know the line was ran wrong and been able to avoid it unless someone told him about it before he started.


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## Bobbyb4949 (Jun 21, 2017)

I have been on the roofing forum of professional roofers.
Majority of roofers had said that the roofer should pay for it. Even if it was unforeseen.
Many said that they always check out the attic for such things before starting work.
If one of the roofers fell thru the roof, wouldn't the roofer be liable for the damage.
I know neither instance is on purpose. Aren't they why they are licensed and bonded.
I have paid half for the roof. I am supposed to pay the other half today. But I think it is reasonable for me to wait on paying until damage is repaired.


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## Bobbyb4949 (Jun 21, 2017)

The hole in the line is in a very narrow space, unlikely to be able to get in there and couple it or weld it.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

I'd show it to the roofer and see what he says. I wouldn't do or say anything that would put him on the defensive. Do you feel he treated you fairly on the price of the roof? The reason I ask this is because a 'friend' did some work for me and really stuck it to me....his guys caused a small amount of damage.....if he hadn't gouged me then I would have taken care of the fixes my self but seeing how his price was 'out of line' I felt he or his insurance should cover the damage. Get a price for the fix so you will have it in hand when you speak to the roofer. To play the devil's advocate the a/c line location wasn't hidden and he could have seen it if he checked the underside of the roof decking....do roofers usually do that?....probably not but it's always nice to be thorough to understand what you're dealing with and avoid any OOPS.


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## Bobbyb4949 (Jun 21, 2017)

Well I know I'm in $165 for the service tech. He said it will be about $500 just to put Freon in. So I'm guessing that it could be a good $1000 total. And I don't have the money.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

Is he licensed and insured? Might be a good idea to have a repair quote in hand that you could show to the roofer. Everybody has a different opinion on this. If it gets contentious would you rather chase him for the $ or have him chase you? 
If you can't reach an agreement with him then maybe tell him you will hold back the repair cost and have the situation arbitrated....your State Attorney General's Consumer Protection Division will help arbitrate at no cost.....there are also contractor dispute arbitration agencys---check your State for contact info. Also, check out your State's Small Claims Court process.


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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

His insurance should cover it. Easily $1000 to run a new line, vacuum and charge. 

Maybe it's not his fault but in Michigan we call our insurance No Fault. I'm not sure if it extends to commercial insurance but it's a good concept. It's insurance for accidents that occur which the "victim" wouldn't be able to afford to cover. Accidents. Not wrecklessness. Meaning, he didn't do it intentionally but he still did it. Ridiculous to assume someone's insurance should only cover S you do on purpose. Imagine if your collision coverage only kicked in if you intentionally crashed your car.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Still no picture so we can see what your seeing.
Is this a shingled roof?
I've been in hundreds of attics and never once seen any form of line so close to the sheathing that 1-1/4 nail could hit it.
If for some strange reason they did run the lines through the rafters they should have been drilled in the middle so nothing could hit them.


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## BIG Johnson (Apr 9, 2017)

joecaption said:


> Still no picture so we can see what your seeing.
> Is this a shingled roof?
> I've been in hundreds of attics and never once seen any form of line so close to the sheathing that 1-1/4 nail could hit it.
> If for some strange reason they did run the lines through the rafters they should have been drilled in the middle so nothing could hit them.


Maybe a roof jack nail?


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## Bobbyb4949 (Jun 21, 2017)

Not able to insert picture of the nail. But trust me cooper line runs right up against ceiling of attic. Roofer at first balked at paying for it. Now, says he will work with me. I finally found heating/ac guy to come out. Have to get it fixed asap due to heat wave. I called my homeowners that has $250 deductible, going to let roofer know I will go that way and take $250 off my roof bill. Unless he has other idea and wants to pay out of pocket because my insurance said they would try and collect from his insurance.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

Bobbyb4949 said:


> Not able to insert picture of the nail. But trust me cooper line runs right up against ceiling of attic. Roofer at first balked at paying for it. Now, says he will work with me. I finally found heating/ac guy to come out. Have to get it fixed asap due to heat wave. I called my homeowners that has $250 deductible, going to let roofer know I will go that way and take $250 off my roof bill. Unless he has other idea and wants to pay out of pocket because my insurance said they would try and collect from his insurance.


Did your insurance company say what would happen if they are unable to collect from the roofer's insurance company? Maybe hold back more than the $250.....especially because the roofer initially balked. Also, some insurance companies get 'funny' when claims are filed....maybe check with yours to see if they may 'bite' you down the road.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

JIMMIEM said:


> Did your insurance company say what would happen if they are unable to collect from the roofer's insurance company?



My guess is nothing. Insurance companies argue payments behind the scene with one another all the time. Once its in that stage outcomes have nothing to do with the insured.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Bobbyb4949 said:


> outdoor a/c unit.....cooper line runs right up against ceiling of attic.


Here in my part of Michigan HVAC stuff in an attic is pretty rare. And my background is roofing NOT HVAC. So perhaps an HVAC "expert" can tell me why a copper coolant line would be in an attic if the AC unit is outside? 
Was the AC unit roof mounted?
As others suggested would codes allow a line like that right up against the roof deck? 

I am inclined to side with the roofer if that line was a code violation. In all my years of estimating roofs climbing in the attic to search for anything like that was not something any roofing contractor I knew ever did. I may have asked to look in an attic if I walked on a roof and felt massive amounts of de-laminated plywood


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

The AC is a split system. Condenser outside, evaporator in the attic with the air handler/furnace unit. Your freon lines run between the condenser and the evaporator.

It real easy to spot. AC lines running up the outside wall. If they go thru the gable end wall, it's probably not a problem. 

If the lines enter thru the soffit, the roofer should be looking inside the attic. After they go thru the soffit, they often follow the rafter up the roof until they drop down over the furnace/air handler. Keeps someone from stepping on them.

You would hope that they would be low on the rafter, but some are pushed up tight against the roof.

Why roofers in AC country haven't learned to spot it, IDK.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Oso954 said:


> If the lines enter thru the soffit, the roofer should be looking inside the attic. After they go thru the soffit, they often follow the rafter up the roof until they drop down over the furnace/air handler. Keeps someone from stepping on them.
> You would hope that they would be low on the rafter, but some are pushed up tight against the roof.
> Why roofers in AC country haven't learned to spot it, IDK.


That is some absurd logic to me. Why run them up a rafter so somebody who can presumbly actually see them won't step on them but then run them so tight to the roof that a roofer who CAN"T see them might run a nail through them. 
Why don't HVACers in roof country keep the lines away from nail penetration? That seems like it would be written in to some code book.
Even if a roofer looked inside they then have to figure out the location of that line on the top side of a roof to avoid nailing near it for how many feet? 
It makes absolutely no sense that a roofer has to adjust nail placement for a copper line inside the attic that could have been run on the underside of the rafter.


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## SeniorSitizen (Sep 10, 2012)

QUOTE: Oso954--Why roofers in AC country haven't learned to spot it, IDK. 
**********************************************************
The reason being, the name of the game is get in and get out as fast as possible. It doesn't seem to matter if there isn't another job for 3 days, I've determined it's just the mind set of contractors on contracted jobs.

My daughter and son inlaw had their roof done and the flue was lifted from the NG furnace in the process. They were fortunate the furnace failed shortly after and my son inlaw found it.

What's a homeowner to do, pay other high speed professionals to do follow ups on everything that may have been screwed up.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> Why don't HVACers in roof country keep the lines away from nail penetration? That seems like it would be written in to some code book.


It doesn't matter. We have codes about keeping plumbing and electrical away from nails/protecting them if they are too close. It hasn't eliminated the problem of nails penetrating either electrical or plumbing.

I can understand a roofer that doesn't work around ac regularly getting caught by surprise. But if he is in ac country and has punctured a number of Freon lines, he should learn to take precautions. 

Even if it is the havc guys fault for mounting it to tight to the roof, he isn't the guy who punctured it. The roofer was. The roofer catches the customers flack and may ultimately end up paying for it.

So, if he's smart, he would learn to spot the attic mount ac unit from outside the house. If it enters the soffit, use the pull down stair and at least stick his head in the attic. With a good flashlight he ought to be able to spot it from there. (The pull down stair is another flag that the ac might be in the attic.)


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

SeniorSitizen said:


> QUOTE: Oso954--Why roofers in AC country haven't learned to spot it, IDK.
> **********************************************************
> The reason being, the name of the game is get in and get out as fast as possible. It doesn't seem to matter if there isn't another job for 3 days, I've determined it's just the mind set of contractors on contracted jobs.
> 
> ...


I see that as two different issues entirely. A furnace flue is a roof penetration and a roofer should be expected to deal with that penetration in a professional manor. Shame on the roofers at your daughters house, they screwed up.
But an improperly run copper line hidden in an attic is not something a roofer should be expect to assume. If someone can tell me codes and/or best practices or industry standards for HVAC find that copper line up against the roof deck in nail range to be perfectly acceptable then I will back off my stance. But I find that hard to believe.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Oso954 said:


> I can understand a roofer that doesn't work around ac regularly getting caught by surprise. But if he is in ac country and has punctured a number of Freon lines, he should learn to take precautions.


I won't disagree but what evidence is there that this particular guy has punctured a number of lines and not learned to take precautions?
Seems to me you are describing a rampant problem with the HVAC industry and blaming it on roofers.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

Oso954 said:


> It doesn't matter. We have codes about keeping plumbing and electrical away from nails/protecting them if they are too close. It hasn't eliminated the problem of nails penetrating either electrical or plumbing.


That isn't a chronic problem in Michigan. 
Maybe I am incorrectly assuming other states actually follow industry standards and get inspected as rigorously as we do.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

> I won't disagree but what evidence is there that this particular guy has punctured a number of lines and not learned to take precautions?


I tried to avoid anyone taking it that way by what I wrote.

If he is in ac country 
and he has punctured a number of lines, (if still applies to this phase)
he should learn to take precautions.

If the answer to either phrase is no, then the whole sentence does not apply to him. 

On the other hand, it's a little after 2pm where I live. The temperature has not peaked for the day, its 104 in the shade. 
If he lived in my area and hasn't learned to watch for it, I might possibly question his intelligence.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

Last year I cut my own line set. Some idiot had run it under the vinyl siding. No way could you see it was there. Cost me $300 to get the line brazed and system recharged.

If a contractor had done it, I would not have blamed him.

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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

rjniles said:


> Some idiot had run it under the vinyl siding. No way could you see it was there.


Did somebody run the line behind the siding or did some sider cover the line?

I guess I live in a bit of a "bubble" because I bet 95-99% of the houses in my area have basements and if they have central AC its on the ground outside and the lines run in to the basement...about as far away from the roof as you can get.
But if running lines in to the attic is the norm in some areas I still don't get way HVAC people would place those lines so close to the roof deck to get punctured by a roofing nail. That to me is more stupid than a roofer not checking. 
And I am still curious if codes or "best practices" allow those lines to run like that.


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## JIMMIEM (Nov 17, 2016)

craig11152 said:


> Did somebody run the line behind the siding or did some sider cover the line?
> 
> I guess I live in a bit of a "bubble" because I bet 95-99% of the houses in my area have basements and if they have central AC its on the ground outside and the lines run in to the basement...about as far away from the roof as you can get.
> But if running lines in to the attic is the norm in some areas I still don't get way HVAC people would place those lines so close to the roof deck to get punctured by a roofing nail. That to me is more stupid than a roofer not checking.
> And I am still curious if codes or "best practices" allow those lines to run like that.


Doesn't line location depend on the type of heating/ac system(s) in the house? My first house had forced hot air with floor registers and the a/c lines were run into the basement so it could use the same ductwork. My current house has forced hot water baseboard radiators and the central a/c system is totally separate and has ceiling registers....the air handler is in the attic and the a/c lines run up an outside wall and are inside a conduit.....a/c was added after the house was built and I always wondered if a/c had been installed during original construction if they would have run the a/c lines in the outside wall cavity.


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

JIMMIEM said:


> Doesn't line location depend on the type of heating/ac system(s) in the house? My first house had forced hot air with floor registers and the a/c lines were run into the basement so it could use the same ductwork. My current house has forced hot water baseboard radiators and the central a/c system is totally separate and has ceiling registers....the air handler is in the attic and the a/c lines run up an outside wall and are inside a conduit.....a/c was added after the house was built and I always wondered if a/c had been installed during original construction if they would have run the a/c lines in the outside wall cavity.


Good point....I should add that as common as basements are in my area so is natural gas forced air heating. Pretty much the norm. 
As to the running of your lines, if putting them in the wall cavity had been done I wonder if they would have used conduit there as well? 
As I mentioned I am not an HVAC guy but I have to imagine there is some sort of standard/code for running those lines. I would further imagine that standard/code would include mitigating the chance of puncture. But I'm not an HVAC guy so I will happily defer to an expert.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

The lines run up the exterior wall and are tight to the wall. I've seen some exposed, but most are covered by a chase. The roof is typically 4/12 although it might be less, particularly in some of the homes from the post war-1970 period. Many of the homes have 2x4 trusses, not rafter systems. The HVAC guys have to make a minimum 12 inch (IIRC) radius bend as they go over the top plate and try to stay under the roof deck. There isn't a lot of room to do that.

Most of these punctures occur in that first foot as measured from the exterior wall. Yes if the puncture is happening halfway up the roof, it's the HVAC guys fault. But IMO, if its within that first foot or so of the exterior wall surface, it's the roofers problem for not checking it out. It should be avoidable.

Lines or chase extending clear up to the soffit, check the clearance from inside the attic. 
If the lines don't go to the soffit, it's not a problem to be worried about.


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

Most units here are in the attic. We have to run the lines inside the exterior wall. It's only 3.5 inches so you have to watch that the line doesn't hit the roof, put them in the center so the siding guys don't hit the lines. We are required to put nail guards on the inside so the Sheetrock guys don't get them. It's always close to the roof. But should never touch it but lines get tripped over, pushed, pulled etc. had one last year where the guy that put up the closet shelfs put a two nail through a 3/8 line. We don't do startups until
The power is turned on . Had a tough time finding the leak as the nail
Went in and out of the line but still held gas lol. It was even harder to convince homeowner to let me cut the new Sheetrock freshly paint to just find and repair leak. He shot nails everywhere. Only one hit though. Sad part is I never did get paid. It was not worth going to court for. But it took a few trips and gas before I figured it out. Homeowner was the contractor. 


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

BayouRunner said:


> Most units here are in the attic.


Where are you located? I am always interested in how things vary from one place to another. I am beginning to see its not unusual to have HVAC stuff in the attic in some places.
As I mentioned before here in SE Michigan its pretty rare to have any HVAC in an attic. Most houses have basements and natural gas forced air systems conducive to an outdoor on the ground AC unit that use the same duct work the furnace does.


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## BayouRunner (Feb 5, 2016)

Louisiana. The water table is too high to have a basement. I've lived here since 1980 and have only seen one. A very wealthy and paranoid man. He built the basement as a bomb shelter, generator, years worth of food and whatever else he could keep down there. They do have some closet units here but 90 percent are in the attic. It may be different in the northern part of the state I don't know but the bottom 1/2 is very flat. My home has two water source units in the attic. Hot water heaters are up there as well


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

Part of the reason for no basement can just be the frost line. When you have a shallow frost line, you take maybe a foot out under the entire house, trench for footers another foot or so, and do a crawl space. Saves a lot of money in digging and in concrete versus the full basement. 

Most of our houses were subdivision built and you don't have a choice, the developer made it for you.

Starter level homes built post WWII until about the mid 60s often had no central heating, just a couple wall heaters. As people wanted to upgrade these to a central furnace, they had to either give up space in the house or possibly the garage. As attic type units came out, it became a no brainer to look up whether it was just heat, or heat and air.

Before the price of ac dropped substantially, it was no nearly as common place as it is now. I can remember swamp coolers being far more common than AC.

How about a swamp cooler for your car, ever seen one of those ?


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## craig11152 (Jun 20, 2015)

We love our basements here in Michigan. A few blocks from me in Ann Arbor there is a subdivision with a few "no basement" houses. I can't say with certainty but I'm pretty dang sure those houses sell for 30-60 grand less than if they had a basement.


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## Oso954 (Jun 23, 2012)

You need them. It makes a lot of sense where you live. 
They make even more sense in Missouri, where some of my relatives live.

Personally, I like basements. But they are not readily available in most of our homes. I always thought I would put one in for myself if building a custom house for us. However, the custom home never made the bucket list.


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## chandler48 (Jun 5, 2017)

Here, basements are a given fact of life. You walk in the house on grade level, and by the time you exit the back door you are 20+ feet off the ground. Mountain terrain makes for good basements.


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