# lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?



## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

In a word: NO.
The undercabinet lighting does not have to be GFCI protected, just the receptacles, and you are not allowed to tap the small appliance circuits for any lighting.


----------



## frodo (Feb 8, 2008)

Thank you Househelper. That is what I figured from reading about it in my Wiring Simplified handbook but what hung me up is the under cabinet lighting I thought about using is a plug in type. Now, with that thought in mind I'm afraid of failing inspection with an unprotected outlet, for switch controlled lighting, in an area where only protected outlets are allowed. I guess I could use a gfci receptacle for that lighting circuit, keeping it on a third kitchen circuit used for lighting only. I have a third circuit already pulled for overhead lighting anyway and this receptacle would be last in that branch. But would that violate code in some way as well? Any thoughts or suggestions?


----------



## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

You can have a non-GFCI protected receptacle in the kitchen, but it cannot serve the countertop. That means it must be more than 12in below the c/t or more than 20in above it, or in an area where there is no c/t.


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

frodo said:


> Thank you Househelper. That is what I figured from reading about it in my Wiring Simplified handbook but what hung me up is the under cabinet lighting I thought about using is a plug in type. Now, with that thought in mind I'm afraid of failing inspection with an unprotected outlet, for switch controlled lighting, in an area where only protected outlets are allowed. I guess I could use a gfci receptacle for that lighting circuit, keeping it on a third kitchen circuit used for lighting only. I have a third circuit already pulled for overhead lighting anyway and this receptacle would be last in that branch. But would that violate code in some way as well? Any thoughts or suggestions?


You can plug whatever you want into a Small appliance circuit, so if you have plug in transformers than you are all set, just use the switches that come with the lights....

EDIT: You got me thinking, and I cannot find a code violation to switch a 20 AMP SA receptacle serving the countertop as long as you have another switched lighting outlet in the room...

SO as long as your switching a receptacle supplied by a 20 amp circuit and you have another switched lighting outlet other than a receptacle, than your good to go...


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Kitchen receptacle requirements are covered by 210.52 (B) and (C) of the 2005 NEC.

I can find nowhere in there that says you cannot put a single receptacle(s) above the countertop to serve your task lighting and have a switch control it.

By single receptacle, of course, I mean a receptacle having only one outlet, as opposed to a duplex. You could put a single everywhere you have a light to plug in, and have them all on one switch. This would exempt them from the GFCI requirement.

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Kitchen receptacle requirements are covered by 210.52 (B) and (C) of the 2005 NEC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


210.8 (6) would require the GFI protection... weather it be a single or a duplex... 

Also, any receptacle for counter space MUST be a small appliance circuit...


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> 210.8 (6) would require the GFI protection... weather it be a single or a duplex...
> 
> Also, any receptacle for counter space MUST be a small appliance circuit...


I disagree. 210.8 (A)(6) states: "Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces"

A light mounted to the cabinet isn't an appliance on the countertop surface. The handbook makes a specific mention of this in the editors' note below that section.

And the code requires AT LEAST two small appliance circuits to serve the countertop surface. He could install 12 small appliance circuits if he wanted to, and serve his lighting receptacles with one of them.

But that is un-necessary, as I have already stated. He can take a drop from his lighting circuit to another switch, then to as many single receptacles along the counter space as needed. As long as he didn't plug appliances into the receptacles, he is exempt from the GFCI requirements, as well as the small appliance circuit requirements.

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I disagree. 210.8 (A)(6) states: "Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces"
> 
> A light mounted to the cabinet isn't an appliance on the countertop surface. The handbook makes a specific mention of this in the editors' note below that section.
> 
> ...



If a receptacle is installed over a counter then its serving it, whether that is your intention or not...

EDIT, after re-reading 210.52 for awhile, I finally accepted that you can in fact have a 15a receptacle on a kitchen counter...


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> If a receptacle is installed over a counter then its serving it, whether that is your intention or not...


Sorry Chris, I just cannot agree here. By this logic, we could say that the refrigerator should be on the GFCI because you could conceivably plug something else into it. What about the stove igniter? What about the dedicated freezer circuit in the garage? The intent of the installation dictates the requirements it has to follow.

This is a dedicated lighting outlet, that will have a light plugged into it that is mounted to a cabinet. There is nothing in the code that precludes it.

And if you really wanted to get down to it, you could simply GFCI protect the lighting, but not from the SA circuit. You could install a dead-face GFCI and then hit the switch, the the singles. But again, that isn't necessary.

Cite a specific code article that says a dedicated outlet on the countertop has to be GFCI protected. I cannot find one instance of it. The instances you have already cited are intended for portable appliances that actually sit on the surface of the countertop.

I say "intended" because the NEC Handbook notes specifically mention countertop receptacles serving portable appliances. If a receptacle doesn't serve a portable appliance, then it is exempt from the GFCI requirements. Just look at the disposal, dishwasher, or trash compactor.

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Sorry Chris, I just cannot agree here. By this logic, we could say that the refrigerator should be on the GFCI because you could conceivably plug something else into it. What about the stove igniter? What about the dedicated freezer circuit in the garage? The intent of the installation dictates the requirements it has to follow.
> 
> This is a dedicated lighting outlet, that will have a light plugged into it that is mounted to a cabinet. There is nothing in the code that precludes it.
> 
> ...



I did edit my last post but you were already typing, I did end up agreeing, but just so you know I hate the handbook and it's just someones opinion just like yours and mine...  and its not enforceable...


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

chris75 said:


> I did edit my last post but you were already typing, I did end up agreeing, but just so you know I hate the handbook and it's just someones opinion just like yours and mine...  and its not enforceable...


I agree with you there. There are a few notes that I don't particularly like. But, while not enforceable, they do reflect the thinking behind the articles, which can help in interpretation. But in the end, it's up to the AHJ.

As an aside, it's Friday night. Shouldn't we be somewhere having strippers grind on us instead of arguing code on the internet? Nah, I didn't think so either...

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> As an aside, it's Friday night. Shouldn't we be somewhere having strippers grind on us instead of arguing code on the internet? Nah, I didn't think so either...
> 
> InPhase277


 Those days are long gone...


----------



## frodo (Feb 8, 2008)

Thank you all for the answers to my question. It does seem to be a grey area in the code. It probably all boils down to how the inspector interprets the code at the time of inspection. I've come up with a slightly different approach to the whole thing that may be the solution, but here again since I'm not as code savy as you readers there may be a problem with this idea. 

This branch circuit I'm using is a lighting circuit that will also serve switched over-the-sink lighting as well as above cabinet rope lighting as an accent. Those are also plugin lights and their receptacles are above the cabinets. What if I add my under cabinet lighting receptacle to those above the cabinets and later run the lighting power cord down through the cabinets to the underside lights? This would be a cleaner looking install since the receptacle would be unseen. I'm sure this problem has been addressed and solved thousands of times over the years, I just have to find out how.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and suggestions. I'm buying the beer. :thumbsup:


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

chris75 said:


> If a receptacle is installed over a counter then its serving it, whether that is your intention or not...
> 
> EDIT, after re-reading 210.52 for awhile, I finally accepted that you can in fact have a 15a receptacle on a kitchen counter...





InPhase277 said:


> Sorry Chris, I just cannot agree here. By this logic, we could say that the refrigerator should be on the GFCI because you could conceivably plug something else into it. What about the stove igniter? What about the dedicated freezer circuit in the garage? The intent of the installation dictates the requirements it has to follow.
> 
> This is a dedicated lighting outlet, that will have a light plugged into it that is mounted to a cabinet. There is nothing in the code that precludes it.
> 
> ...


All intent aside, if there is a receptacle above the countertop, then it is a SA branch circuit. Refers, stoves, etc are totally different because they are not easily accessable. Ya, sure, someone COULD move the fridge and plug in a toaster oven there, or they COULD pull out the stove and plug in the microwave. 

In reality that isn't going to happen. And those receptacles are NOT above a countertop either, therefore are not a SABC.

On the other hand, if a switched receptacle is installed a few inches below the cabinet to plug in undercabinet lighting then it IS a SABC because it is above the countertop... and there is NOTHING stopping someone from unplugging the light and pluging in something else.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

arichard21 said:


> All intent aside, if there is a receptacle above the countertop, then it is a SA branch circuit. Refers, stoves, etc are totally different because they are not easily accessable. Ya, sure, someone COULD move the fridge and plug in a toaster oven there, or they COULD pull out the stove and plug in the microwave.
> 
> In reality that isn't going to happen. And those receptacles are NOT above a countertop either, therefore are not a SABC.


Right, it isn't likely. Having said that, I can't for the life of me find where in the code that forbids a non-SA circuit from being on the countertop. What I do find is a requirement to provide at least 2 SA circuits for the countertop, but I can't find a requirement forbidding other circuits.

As a matter of fact, look at 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1. This would specifically allow a switched receptacle in the areas served by SA circuits as long as it was not on the SA circuit, and there was a hardwired overhead light in the kitchen.

InPhase277


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

But my understanding of the code (and I am NOT a professional, so someone correct me if I am wrong) is that you need (at least) 2 dedicated SABC serving the countertop... meaning that AREA (countertop) has to be served by them and not served by anything else (not to be confused with them serving another area) just like a bathroom requires a dedicated cct serving only the bathroom and you couldn't have a cct serving 3 recptacles in there then tap off a bedroom for another receptacle...


----------



## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Code reference:

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

The 2 small app. BC can serve more than the countertop. they can serve all rec. in the rooms mentioned above. Keep in mind that the NEC is the *"MINIMUM" *requirements. You can have 3 or 4 SABC if you want.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

arichard21 said:


> But my understanding of the code (and I am NOT a professional, so someone correct me if I am wrong) is that you need (at least) 2 dedicated SABC serving the countertop... meaning that AREA (countertop) has to be served by them and not served by anything else (not to be confused with them serving another area) just like a bathroom requires a dedicated cct serving only the bathroom and you couldn't have a cct serving 3 receptacles in there then tap off a bedroom for another receptacle...


The code requires at least two 20 A SABCs to serve the kitchen countertop, correct. But it DOES NOT forbid other circuits there as well. You can have 5 SABCs on the countertop, and then run a 15 A switched lighting circuit to a dedicated receptacle there also.

The two 20 A SABCs serving the counter shall serve no other outlets. As long as they are present, any number of other circuits can be placed there as well. You can put an outlet for your welder there. Plug a clothes dryer in next to the sink, doesn't matter.

InPhase277


----------



## Silk (Feb 8, 2008)

Inphase, The 2 SABC can serve more than countertops.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Silk said:


> Inphase, The 2 SABC can serve more than countertops.


Right, I'm sorry, I didn't expand on that. I meant more broadly as in the area they serve. That is, the kitchen, etc.

InPhase277


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> As a matter of fact, look at 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1. This would specifically allow a switched receptacle in the areas served by SA circuits as long as it was not on the SA circuit, and there was a hardwired overhead light in the kitchen.


Yes but this exception requires that receptacle to be installed in accordance with 210.70 (A)(1). The 270(A)(1) exception specifically states that in other than kitchens and bathrooms a switched receptacle for lighting is allowed in lieu of a lighting fixture (outlet).

The small appliance circuit receptacles are required by 210.52(B)(1) & (2)) to serve all wall and counter spaces in those areas and nothing else. The exceptions to 210.52(B)(2) are examples of receptacles not in wall or counter space. They are not available for wall use, they are covered by either a range or a clock or a fridge or a cabinet door, and would violate (B)(2) if not allowed by the exceptions.

What I'm saying here is if we are talking about a receptacle over the countertop and is readily accessible (exposed) to a cord and plug appliance sitting on the countertop it cannot serve lighting whether it is switched or not. It doesn't matter whether it is brought in after the 2 sabc's are met or not if that circuit you bring in shows up on a wall or countertop serving a receptacle it is under the requirements of a kitchen small appliance branch circuit. There are no general purpose receptacles in a kitchen only those covered by the exceptions are allowed.

Now if you were to ask my wife whether or not she could plug a light into that receptacle that's another story so lets don't go there.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Yes but this exception requires that receptacle to be installed in accordance with 210.70 (A)(1). The 270(A)(1) exception specifically states that in other than kitchens and bathrooms a switched receptacle for lighting is allowed in lieu of a lighting fixture (outlet).
> 
> The small appliance circuit receptacles are required by 210.52(B)(1) & (2)) to serve all wall and counter spaces in those areas and nothing else. The exceptions to 210.52(B)(2) are examples of receptacles not in wall or counter space. They are not available for wall use, they are covered by either a range or a clock or a fridge or a cabinet door, and would violate (B)(2) if not allowed by the exceptions.
> 
> What I'm saying here is if we are talking about a receptacle over the countertop and is readily accessible (exposed) to a cord and plug appliance sitting on the countertop it cannot serve lighting.


The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.

Here's the requirements in a nutshell:

1) An overhead light must be present: 210.70(A)(1) Exception 1
2) The switched outlet cannot be on an SA circuit: 210.52(B)(2)
3) The switched outlet cannot serve appliances on the countertop surface unless it is GFCI protected: 210.8(A)(6)
4) General purpose switched circuits are allowed, if you meet requirements 1, 2, and 3 above: 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1

InPhase277


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

> The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.


Well I'm just not seeing that logic to the language in that section. To me this is saying I may have a switched receptacle for light(s) in lieu of the light fixture for lighting in those areas. I don't see it as you must have a lighting fixture then you can have a switched receptacle. In all my years you could have a switched receptacle with the switch located at the entry to the room instead of a switched light fixture. So I agree that the kitchen requires at least one switched overhead light fixture a switched receptacle for lights is allowed as long as it isn't a kitchen or bath. There are thousands of older homes like this though I will admit it isn't a common practice to have one or the other anymore in those areas outside the kitchen and bath. I can't even remember how long that code section has remained unchanged. This is an exception to the fixed light fixture be it overhead or a sconce or whatever in other than kitchens and baths.. It says I may do that if it isn't a kitchen sabc. I also don't see where it mentions it's ok in a kitchen if it is a single or a duplex.

I'll keep reading but I am having some difficulty getting wrapped around this logic. You may well be correct but I have got to look at it a little longer before I decide that is the case.


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.
> 
> Here's the requirements in a nutshell:
> 
> ...


The bolded contradicts everything you are saying.

If there are receptacles on the coutertop area, then it is in effect a SABC, and ust follow the rules regarding them.


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Just noticed this too...

210.52 (b)(1) exception 1 says exactly

"in addition to the required recepracles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a *GENERAL-PURPOSE* branch circuit as defined in 210.70(a)(1), exception no.1 shall be permitted. "


What bearing does general purpose branch circuit have on a SABC?


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Arichard21

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make... the exception in 250.52(B)(1) referring you to the 210.70(A)(1) exception is talking about the required general purpose receptacles of 210.52 in other than kitchens and bathrooms. It is not referencing the sabc's it is prohibiting them from using this exception IMO.

There are not any 'general purpose' branch circuits in a kitchen serving receptacles single or duplex..


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

arichard21 said:


> The bolded contradicts everything you are saying.
> 
> If there are receptacles on the coutertop area, then it is in effect a SABC, and ust follow the rules regarding them.


Just how is it a contradiction? You have two SABCs right? These serve only the kitchen GFCI receptacles that are used to power portable appliances. These are required. Then the first exception to 210.52(B)(1) allows a general purpose circuit to be used in addition.

Nowhere does the code say that any circuit in the kitchen is by definition an SABC. You must have two SABCs. Once you have satisfied that requirement, you can add any number of other circuits.

InPhase277


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

I would like to stay here and continue this because I think there is a lot to be learned in these discussions. But I like other things besides code discussion to fulfill my day...:thumbsup: I think I'll do some calculus or something after this...


One last entry then I need to go and I'll be back later. The language used is 2 or more sabc's not 'at least 2'. It has always been my understanding that this language of 2 or more for kitchens means any additional branch circuits are sabc's if they serve receptacles. The first exception in 210.52(B)(1) is not speaking to the kitchen sabc's it is speaking to the general purpose branch circuits specified in 210.52 for other areas of the dwelling outside bathrooms and kitchens. When that exception refers you to 210.70(A)(1) exception 1 it simply says in those areas ( not including kitchens and bathrooms) you may have a switched receptacle for lights instead of a fixed lighting outlet. To me it is clear you may not have receptacles on the countertop of a kitchen as general purpose receptacles switched for the use of lighting. 

See ya after while guys.

Say do any of you know what the 2nd derivative is for [(x(2)-x(8)]to the 4th power] would be?? I've been working on it for a few days and I cant get the correct answer.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> Well I'm just not seeing that logic to the language in that section. To me this is saying I may have a switched receptacle for light(s) in lieu of the light fixture for lighting in those areas. I don't see it as you must have a lighting fixture then you can have a switched receptacle. In all my years you could have a switched receptacle with the switch located at the entry to the room instead of a switched light fixture. So I agree that the kitchen requires at least one switched overhead light fixture a switched receptacle for lights is allowed as long as it isn't a kitchen or bath. There are thousands of older homes like this though I will admit it isn't a common practice to have one or the other anymore in those areas outside the kitchen and bath. I can't even remember how long that code section has remained unchanged. This is an exception to the fixed light fixture be it overhead or a sconce or whatever in other than kitchens and baths.. It says I may do that if it isn't a kitchen sabc. I also don't see where it mentions it's ok in a kitchen if it is a single or a duplex.
> 
> I'll keep reading but I am having some difficulty getting wrapped around this logic. You may well be correct but I have got to look at it a little longer before I decide that is the case.


I think the "in lieu of" makes it clear. Its seems to me that in other than kitchens and bathrooms, you can forgo an overhead light, as long as you have a switched receptacle.

This DOES NOT forbid a switched receptacle in those areas either. It simply makes it clear that a switched receptacle cannot be the only source of lighting there.

The single receptacle makes the outlet dedicated to one purpose. That way once you plug your cabinet light in, there is no way to use the same outlet for an appliance. Like in your basement, when you plug the freezer into a single receptacle, you avoid the need for GFCI protection.

A single receptacle on a switched lighting circuit, dedicated for the purpose of fixed under cabinet lighting, doesn't need GFCI protection and can be located on the countertop.

If you ask me if it should be done, of if I would do it, that's a different story:no:.

InPhase277


----------



## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

I agree that 210.52(B)(1), Exception1 allows general purpose switched receptacles for lighting in a kitchen, but only if there is a fixed, switched lighting outlet (fixture) already present. 

I do *not* agree that this switched receptacle is allowed to serve the countertop. Article 210.52(B)(3) specifies that receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve the countertop surfaces _*shall*_ be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits. There is no exception here for lighting outlets.

Additionally, Article 210.8(A)(6) specifies that all receptacles serving countertop surfaces _*must*_ be GFCI protected. There is no exception for a single receptacle, switched or not.

So my take would be install a switch for the countertop receptacle if you wish, but it must be part of the SABC and it must be GFCI protected.


----------



## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> The single receptacle makes the outlet dedicated to one purpose. That way once you plug your cabinet light in, there is no way to use the same outlet for an appliance. Like in your basement, when you plug the freezer into a single receptacle, you avoid the need for GFCI protection.
> 
> A single receptacle on a switched lighting circuit, dedicated for the purpose of fixed under cabinet lighting, doesn't need GFCI protection and can be located on the countertop.
> InPhase277


That exception only applies to unfinished basements, it does not extend to other areas of a dwelling. See 210.8(A)(5).


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

HouseHelper said:


> I agree that 210.52(B)(1), Exception1 allows general purpose switched receptacles for lighting in a kitchen, but only if there is a fixed, switched lighting outlet (fixture) already present.
> 
> I do *not* agree that this switched receptacle is allowed to serve the countertop. Article 210.52(B)(3) specifies that receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve the countertop surfaces _*shall*_ be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits. There is no exception here for lighting outlets.


The key here is "serve the countertop surfaces". This means portable appliances. A light mounted to a cabinet above the countertop is not a portable appliance.



> Additionally, Article 210.8(A)(6) specifies that all receptacles serving countertop surfaces _*must*_ be GFCI protected. There is no exception for a single receptacle, switched or not.


Again, here it means for portable appliances.



> So my take would be install a switch for the countertop receptacle if you wish, but it must be part of the SABC and it must be GFCI protected.


Nope. On an SABC, you cannot have a switched lighting outlet. But nowhere in the Code is it said that a circuit on the countertop is automatically an SABC. Not one place.

I think it is a matter of splitting hairs, but I think that it is still permissible. Will it fly with the inspector? Probably not. Would I do it? No. Does the code, as it is worded, allow it? I think so.

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I think it is a matter of splitting hairs, but I think that it is still permissible. Will it fly with the inspector? Probably not. Would I do it? No. Does the code, as it is worded, allow it? I think so.
> 
> InPhase277


I agree, once you've met your Kitchen receptacle requirements, 210.52(B)(3) & (C), there is no code violation to go back and fill in between the spaces with more receptacles on any size circuit and non gfi protection...


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I think the "in lieu of" makes it clear. Its seems to me that in other than kitchens and bathrooms, you can forgo an overhead light, as long as you have a switched receptacle.
> 
> This DOES NOT forbid a switched receptacle in those areas either. It simply makes it clear that a switched receptacle cannot be the only source of lighting there.
> 
> ...


 
While it may not specificly say they are NOT allowed, there are an infinate amount of issues the NEC does NOT allow that are not specificly stated.

That being said, its like this.

Let's say you tell your kid they MUST stay in the yard. It's a given that they CAN'T go into the nrighbors yard, even though it was not said.



chris75 said:


> I agree, once you've met your Kitchen receptacle requirements, 210.52(B)(3) & (C), there is no code violation to go back and fill in between the spaces with more receptacles on any size circuit and non gfi protection...


I disagree. The way I interpret it is that ANY receptacle serving the countertop becomes part of a SABC, as there is NO WAY to differentiate. Yes, if it was a single receptacle nothing else could be plugged in at the same time, but it is just as easy to unplug the light and then plug the toaster in... thus becoming a non GFI protected (and switched)SABC.


InPhase, I will say tecnicallly anything that is cord and plug is not perminant. IMO, if you don't have to kill the breaker to safely remove it, it is NOT a perminant fixture.


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

arichard21 said:


> I disagree. The way I interpret it is that ANY receptacle serving the countertop becomes part of a SABC, as there is NO WAY to differentiate. Yes, if it was a single receptacle nothing else could be plugged in at the same time, but it is just as easy to unplug the light and then plug the toaster in... thus becoming a non GFI protected (and switched)SABC.


Thats because your not reading it right... :thumbsup: Answer me this, where does it say that any receptacle must be on a SABC? Look at is this way, Once i've met the code requirements for the outlets serving the kitchen counter, anything else I add is NOT serving the counter... 

If you have the time, read this thread... http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=95591


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

I will meet you half way chris.


ANYTHING serving the countertop IS A SABC. The code states there must be 2 OR MORE. If you place 2 ccts, then another, it is still a SABC.

That being said, I am going to agree that it would NOT be a violation to switch the outlet, so long as it is still a SABC and conforms to the code relating to them.

That was a very enlightening read.


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

This one is a better argument. I urge everyone replying here to take the time to read it. I'm not sure it convinces any of us to change our opinions but it really hashes out the relevant codes. I have now decided this section of code to be very poor language..... I bet we can agree in part with that statement....

http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-65854.html


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The one thing that really gets me is this.... if I can bring in a general purpose branch circuit that is code legal to the countertop after I have installed the receptacles of the required 2 SABC's, and go along beside these and install 15 amp switched gfci receptacles for cord and plug lights or whatever how do you uphold the reasoning behind the small appliances branch circuits. A housewife is going to plug whatever she wants into them, what are you going to do label them no kitchen appliances here please? 

Stubbie


----------



## 220/221 (Oct 9, 2007)

> In a word: NO.


 
The correct word is yes.:laughing: 

NEC doesnt restrict what you plug in to the recep.

It does have to be GFCI though.


You can't HARDWIRE the lights from the kit circuit.


----------



## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> The one thing that really gets me is this.... if I can bring in a general purpose branch circuit that is code legal to the countertop after I have installed the receptacles of the required 2 SABC's, and go along beside these and install 15 amp switched gfci receptacles for cord and plug lights or whatever how do you uphold the reasoning behind the small appliances branch circuits. A housewife is going to plug whatever she wants into them, what are you going to do label them no kitchen appliances here please?
> 
> Stubbie


The links are for sure interesting reading:thumbup:! Seems we are not the only ones who disagree about the language of the code!

However, Stubbie, what you say about labels, doesn't that same thing apply to any dedicated circuit in a location that otherwise requires GFCI protection? I mean, if you have a circuit for a deep freeze in the garage, but don't have the freezer covering it up, do you put a label on it that says "no power tools please"?

In my opinion, as I read the code, if you were to have the required SA circuits, you could come right along and place a switched lighting receptacle there on a lighting circuit. I would say a single receptacle. The exception to 210.70(B) does not forbid it, because if you have an overhead fixture, there is nothing to be "in lieu of". Furthermore, the article 210.8(A)(6) only requires receptacles that serve the countertops to be GFCI protected. The receptacles we ar concerned with do not "serve the countertop surfaces", instead they serve the lights above the counter.

NOWHERE in the code does it state that a circuit becomes an SABC once it is placed above the countertop.

If it were me, I would place a dead-face GFI in a two gang box with the switch, then hit my receptacles. I would also place it on a 20 A circuit, because I don't pull 15 A circuits anyhow:thumbup:. 

On second thought, I would probably just put the receptacles in the cabinet ABOVE the lights, and drill a hole for the cord.

I'm only arguing this because I think the code would allow it, and because I like to argue:jester:!

InPhase277


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> The links are for sure interesting reading:thumbup:! Seems we are not the only ones who disagree about the language of the code!
> 
> However, Stubbie, what you say about labels, doesn't that same thing apply to any dedicated circuit in a location that otherwise requires GFCI protection? I mean, if you have a circuit for a deep freeze in the garage, but don't have the freezer covering it up, do you put a label on it that says "no power tools please"?
> 
> ...


I hope I never find myself in the position to install receptacles that are not part of the SABC's, but I do agree that it is legal...


----------



## HouseHelper (Mar 20, 2007)

chris75 said:


> I hope I never find myself in the position to install receptacles that are not part of the SABC's, but I do agree that it is legal...


... if they don't serve the countertop!:thumbup:


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

HouseHelper said:


> ... if they don't serve the countertop!:thumbup:



Yep... ! :laughing:


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Well you would certainly think that you could have a switched receptacle for whatever in the kitchen for other than sabc requirements..... :whistling2:My problem is I don't see how to put one over the counter and it not be considered serving the counter top. I've decided that none of us are wrong just some of us are mistaken.

Stubbie


----------



## arichard21 (Oct 17, 2007)

What I think is the real issue here is that if there is a recept serving the countertop, is it AUTOMATICLY a SABC? The way I read it is yes.

I agree that this area of the code is very poorly worded and that leaves it open to interpritation. My inspector may allow a non gfi switched outlet on the countertop, while stubbie's won't. It can go either way... it does not expressly FORBID this to happen, but doesn't say in plain english that ALL recepts serving the countertop become SABC (FWIW, to me it is IMPLIED that they all must be 20A, GFI

Switched outlet? YES.
Non GFI 15AMP cct present? NO.


----------



## chris75 (Aug 25, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> Well you would certainly think that you could have a switched receptacle for whatever in the kitchen for other than sabc requirements..... :whistling2:My problem is I don't see how to put one over the counter and it not be considered serving the counter top. I've decided that none of us are wrong just some of us are mistaken.
> 
> Stubbie



The *required* receptacles for a kitchen counter are 210.52(B) (3) & (C), The outlets i'm installing are NOT required and do NOT serve the countertop so WHY would I use 210.52(B) (3) & (C) to install them????

This was the easiest way I can think of to explain it...


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Chris

I really do see your point and I am inclined to agree. You and I both know this is acceptable....at least I have never been nailed for it. My difficulty is with the way the code is written it is not IMO opinion clear and is in fact quite poorly written to the point that no one in the field can reach agreement on it. Ever had a discussion with your inspector on this? Ask him what he thinks of adding a 15 amp general purpose branch circuit for switched receptacles along side the 2 sabc required receptacles on a counter top (single or duplex) for the purpose of plugging a wall mounted lights. I'll bet you will get a pause and different answers from different inspectors. In the real residential wiremans world it likely will be accepted but is not the greatest design considering the intent of 20 amp circuits on the countertop. And I don't mean in terms of available power. Second who the heck would want cord and plugs to wall mount fixtures on the countertop receptacles? But i suppose that is not the issue. The question if I can remember was ...can you have receptacles serving lights on the counter top in the same areas defined for the 2 or more sabc's switched or otherwise? My answer is a reserved yes after reviewing other opinions... yours included. But one that still has a bit of fog hung over it.

Stubbie


----------



## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

If I might add this one last comment...

I think the question would have been better asked if it had said....

If you bring in a 3rd sabc to the countertop to a single kitchen can I serve lights from those receptacles?

The only way I see to differentiate between a general purpose branch circuit and an sabc on the counter top after the required 2 sabc's is by branch circuit rating or if your bringing in a circuit that also serves living room receptacles or the like. Not forgetting the gfci requirements.


----------

