# Reconstructing Driveway to Create Flat Area



## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Long story short, we have a 33ft driveway that is a rise of ~5ft over that span (pretty steep) especially in winter with snow and ice. The entire driveway is like this which presents an issue for people parking and walking on it (regardless of season). We are currently looking into options with several contractors to see what would be the most feasible for us since we very much want to stay at this location if we can.

We are not opposed to redoing landscaping and building significant retaining wall(s) to support this endeavor - as those are likely requirements to move forward. Our number one concern given the options we've briefly considered (early stages of this project planning) is being able to comfortably get into the garage from the street (it is a single entrance neighborhood so we'll always be coming from the WEST). Backing out of the garage shouldn't be AS big of a deal since we could handle backing out and turning to go forward to the street (if necessary).

​

What's most important for us:

1) Sizeable flat landing area at the garage floor level. Kids' toys won't runaway into the street if they leave the garage and those visiting can safely park and walk to the front entrance, to name a couple.

2) Being able to comfortably navigate in and out of the garage with both vehicles. Two mid-sized SUVs with decent turn radius.

3) Play area on aforementioned flat landing area (parking area) for basketball hoop, riding bikes, playing with chalk, etc.
Pictures for reference and options for projects (thus far):

https://imgur.com/a/NBjqvFH

​

Any input, feedback or help would be greatly appreciated! TIA!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Do you have a basement?


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yes we have a walkout basement...


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Yes we have a walkout basement...


 So might be able to just lower the floor of the garage 2 or 3 ft. 

If it was here most of the time the foundation would be as deep as the house.


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## TrojanHorse (Feb 15, 2019)

Do you know for sure that the city or AHJ will allow two curb cuts as shown in options 1 and 3? That can sometimes be an issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> fusebox7 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes we have a walkout basement...
> ...


Thought about that. foundation is 42 inch so not basement depth but regardless that seems like it would be much more costly and lead to more steps into the house from the garage and the driveway since it would be lower.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

TrojanHorse said:


> Do you know for sure that the city or AHJ will allow two curb cuts as shown in options 1 and 3? That can sometimes be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not 100% but the contractor I've worked with most on some of the planning didn't think it'd be an issue. Ultimately it would be a matter of the HOA approving the plans but there aren't any bylaws regarding driveways as they yield to township regulations.


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## schreibdave (Jun 12, 2016)

Looks like a beautiful house. I prefer option 1 over the others but that looks like a REALLY expensive project. I don't know what kind of real estate market you live in but around here we would never get that money back at resale. But if that's not a concern I like the way option 1 looks.

As somebody else said, I would be surprised if the town and HOA were both OK with your adding another curb cut and potentially do it that close to the property line.

Good luck


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Thanks for the kind words. We really do want to stay here but now that we have young kids and have played out a few scenarios that have been scary (parked cars sliding into street, balls rolling into street...) we need to make an effort to mitigate those situations.

The twp. and HOA setbacks for driveway are 5-8ft. from the property line. BUT I will double/triple check with both authorities.

Option #1 is definitely the cheapest route.
Option #2 is nice however our concern is coming from the west and then having to make close to a 180 degree turn to come back towards the garage in order to park. Not sure if it's feasible.
Option #3 was created to correct the major pitfall of #2.

The reason for avoiding #1 would be we're trying at all costs to eliminate the slope (it doesn't really show well in the pictures) but it's about 15-16%. It's one thing to use it as a conduit to the garage via AWD vehicle but to traverse it (especially our elder family members) is just downright treacherous... even in non-winter months.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

There could be other restrictions besides the second curb cut. There are sometimes a SF limit to the amount of impervious material covering your lot (based on a ratio). I would guess the HOA would also not like an almost 5' high retaining wall so close to the sidewalk. 

The sidewalk elevation will be the base point (is the 33' length to sidewalk?).. So in most schemes, you will have a rise of say 4.5' over 13' long (given a 20' flatter area) right after you cross the sidewalk going up.. That is probably too steep for vehicles to negotiate the scrape or the crown. And trapezoidal-shaped slope areas in 2 of the schemes might be steeper at the narrow end. 

I'd ballpark your schemes at $25-40K. Lowering the garage floor maybe $60K?

Have you considered:
1. sport court in backyard ($10-15K)
2. stepped sidewalk from porch out to street, independent from the driveway ($5K)


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## schreibdave (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but all of these options are just moving the slope from one place to another and possibly even increasing it - if you end up dropping the 5ft over less than your current 33ft driveway.

I can relate to the fear of the slope with young kids. But moving the slope is probably just going to move the danger zone from one place to another. Will your kids stay away from that new danger zone? Mine are older now but I know what my answer would have been!

Have you considered some sort of attractive automatic gate at the end of the drive? I am thinking brick pillars on either side with a nice wrought iron fence in between? Might solve the problem of the kids going down the drive on their big wheels. Maybe some low, dense plantings along your front property line near the road to keep the balls and kids in? How about using the money you would use for this project to build an awesome backyard play area that makes them want to stay in back rather than in front? Just some thoughts.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> There could be other restrictions besides the second curb cut. There are sometimes a SF limit to the amount of impervious material covering your lot (based on a ratio). I would guess the HOA would also not like an almost 5' high retaining wall so close to the sidewalk.
> 
> The sidewalk elevation will be the base point (is the 33' length to sidewalk?).. So in most schemes, you will have a rise of say 4.5' over 13' long (given a 20' flatter area) right after you cross the sidewalk going up.. That is probably too steep for vehicles to negotiate the scrape or the crown. And trapezoidal-shaped slope areas in 2 of the schemes might be steeper at the narrow end.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply!
- 33 ft from garage door to sidewalk
- the benefit of coming in from the EAST side of the property (new curb cut) is that the road/sidewalk is roughly 2 feet higher there than at the current driveway/sidewalk location. This would reduce the slope to get to the garage floor height. The cause for concern is the angle at which we'd need to approach the garage (hard to visualize if the vehicles could comfortably navigate this).
1. yes have considered but backyard is also sloped. The "sport court" was mainly a secondary benefit to having a designated flat parking area. This isn't a requirement by any means but a 24 x16 area could serve as a small basketball court, for instance.
2. Have thought about this (to from the mailbox, for instance). However, if you notice (and I have other pictures that show this better)... the overhead map shots are old and we have new landscaping (retaining wall) that would have to be modified to accommodate something like this.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

schreibdave said:


> I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but all of these options are just moving the slope from one place to another and possibly even increasing it - if you end up dropping the 5ft over less than your current 33ft driveway.
> 
> I can relate to the fear of the slope with young kids. But moving the slope is probably just going to move the danger zone from one place to another. Will your kids stay away from that new danger zone? Mine are older now but I know what my answer would have been!
> 
> Have you considered some sort of attractive automatic gate at the end of the drive? I am thinking brick pillars on either side with a nice wrought iron fence in between? Might solve the problem of the kids going down the drive on their big wheels. Maybe some low, dense plantings along your front property line near the road to keep the balls and kids in? How about using the money you would use for this project to build an awesome backyard play area that makes them want to stay in back rather than in front? Just some thoughts.


Understood on all points. I have started to think about some mechanism to keep things contained into the lot/driveway. I'm not sure about the pillars and gate idea. In theory that sounds nice. I just can't picture how that would look/operate.


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## John Smith_inFL (Jun 15, 2018)

a 6" - 6,000Lb flat slab driveway at least 20 feet out from the
garage door is so valuable beyond words. especially if you
want to do any kind of maintenance on your vehicles that
require a flat and level place to work on. (my van is 19 feet long).
and a flat safe play area for the kids is high on the list, too.
I layed 120' of asphalt all the way to my carport and kicked
my hind end every time I WISHED that I had the forethought
of a nice flat concrete pad instead of soft asphalt.
if you can't figure it out yourself, I would invest in a building engineer
consultant to figure it out for you.

I would try to figure this option into your plan ~ with a French Drain
at the garage door to assist in the rain water removal issue.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Something like this


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Johnny_inFL said:


> a 6" - 6,000Lb flat slab driveway at least 20 feet out from the
> garage door is so valuable beyond words. especially if you
> want to do any kind of maintenance on your vehicles that
> require a flat and level place to work on. (my van is 19 feet long).
> ...


Thanks for the reply. So the area you have outlined in red would be the flat area, I believe? Curious as to if the rest is sloped how that would look if a retaining wall is supporting a higher elevation that would be sloped up toward the garage but is traversed laterally (driving on a side slope?)... thoughts on this?


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Something like this


Thanks - that certainly is part of that option (not having the secondary curb cut). The main concerns w/ this option is the angle in/out of the garage (is it feasible to navigate w/ vehicles [comfortably] AND the degree of sloped driveway required to enter and exit that higher plateau.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Thanks - that certainly is part of that option (not having the secondary curb cut). The main concerns w/ this option is the angle in/out of the garage (is it feasible to navigate w/ vehicles [comfortably] AND the degree of sloped driveway required to enter and exit that higher plateau.


 Just guessing measurement, from the curb up the slope looks like it would be 25-30 feet and it started 2 feet higher than the present driveway.
roughly 10 % grade compared to 15% that you have now


roughly working grades in my head, don't quote it.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Nealtw said:


> Just guessing measurement, from the curb up the slope looks like it would be 25-30 feet and it started 2 feet higher than the present driveway.
> roughly 10 % grade compared to 15% that you have now
> 
> 
> roughly working grades in my head, don't quote it.


Unfortunately, this side is the west side which is probably 2 feet LOWER than the current driveway entrance so it'd likely be more steep than the current drive. The east side (left side) is the ~2 foot higher side. The issue with coming in from that side is that it's unnatural since we always come from the west (right).


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Unfortunately, this side is the west side which is probably 2 feet LOWER than the current driveway entrance so it'd likely be more steep than the current drive. The east side (left side) is the ~2 foot higher side. The issue with coming in from that side is that it's unnatural since we always come from the west (right).


 Sorry I got the east west mixed up. But the distance would be shorter too. 

I would not give the direction of your driving any weight, you will adapt to that. 



the rectangle that @Johnny_inFL laid out looks better.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> the rectangle that @Johnny_inFL laid out looks better.


Unfortunately that would only be 12'-14' of flat drive out from the door.

Fuse, I underestimated even the simple drive being at $25K. New curb cut/replace old could be $4K just itself. Depending how much retaining wall to hold back higher neighbor and the extent of all the walls holding up a higher drive could be quite expensive. Is there a ROI breaking point for you and amount of concrete drive (atypical for neighborhood) that will start to detract from future buyers?

How much is the 3rd stall used? What if you had just a higher "plateau" for that portion? Not easy to drive in/out, but option for play area.

I understand your plight - my SIL's van slid down their steep drive into the ditch. The time they spend scraping ice and throwing salt for walkers' safety is ludicrous.


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## John Smith_inFL (Jun 15, 2018)

Fuse - if you want to go through the "prototype" exercise,
you could get some cardboard and wood lattice strips and
make a couple of profiles of your largest car. connect a small
rope to it and drag it around the areas that you have concerns with.
make some sticks to attach the orange builders string to and sort of
make mockups of every scenario you can think of. (the kids can help
with pulling the strings tight and attaching it to the sticks, or blocks).
that way you won't be driving on your grass creating a mess in the
design process.
and who knows ~ you just might find the most viable option with
very little expense - except for your time and a few $$ for materials.
and as stated above; you have a BEAUTIFUL home !!!
I hope you explore every option available to you and everyone agrees on it.

.

.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> Unfortunately that would only be 12'-14' of flat drive out from the door.
> 
> Fuse, I underestimated even the simple drive being at $25K. New curb cut/replace old could be $4K just itself. Depending how much retaining wall to hold back higher neighbor and the extent of all the walls holding up a higher drive could be quite expensive. Is there a ROI breaking point for you and amount of concrete drive (atypical for neighborhood) that will start to detract from future buyers?
> 
> ...


So far the quotes I've gotten have been in the $35-60k range (depending on optoin) all of which would include up to two 24x16' areas of heated drive (because the drive faces north and sunlight doesn't touch it all winter). We are willing to spend this because it's the ONE gripe we have at the property. However, no one is getting younger and we're starting to worry about our relatives visiting or even the UPS guy/gal and well, as we get older, something as simple as walking to get the mail or take the garbage cans to the road... you all get it. Given that we're willing to put this investment into it, that's why we've started considering all options in that price range.

re: driveway concrete/curb appeal etc. - it's certainly part of the deal. I think if done right (since we have a big retaining wall in the front yard currently) it could add tremendous curb appeal (we have landscape lighting as well). This neighborhood used to be mostly older couples/empty-nesters but younger affluent families are moving in and investing quite a bit in their properties. Houses sell in less than a week here, even with a completely dead/brown front yard in October ( that shouldn't be  )

3rd stall is utility right now (snowblower, current play area since it's flat). In the future a vehicle will likely be used and parked in there.

We're not opposed to having a sloped drive for entrance/exit of the property, but we're begging for a flat area for parking that's adjacent to the garage door(s) and the front walkway (it's definitely not ideal to have a parking area that's flat and a sloped walkway that people have to traverse to make it to the front door, for instance). That's what would be the case in "option 1" (current drive + new east entrance/parking area).


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

Johnny_inFL said:


> Fuse - if you want to go through the "prototype" exercise,
> you could get some cardboard and wood lattice strips and
> make a couple of profiles of your largest car. connect a small
> rope to it and drag it around the areas that you have concerns with.
> ...


Thanks for the exercise. Once a contractor comes next week to shoot elevations and come up with better grade numbers etc. we're hoping to try to use a church parking lot to attempt turning radius exercises and such.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Thanks for the exercise. Once a contractor comes next week to shoot elevations and come up with better grade numbers etc. we're hoping to try to use a church parking lot to attempt turning radius exercises and such.


 I put a retaining wall between the driveways and left the third one much as is.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

This is what I envision option 2 (preferred) to look like.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

fusebox7 said:


> we're hoping to try to use a church parking lot to attempt turning radius exercises and such.





fusebox7 said:


> This is what I envision option 2 (preferred) to look like.


You can try this backup turn from the garage in your driveway now.

In a parking lot with 90d spaces, a comfortable amount to be able to access them is 25'. And the last space should be inset a little from the end to enable the swing of the front. That describes your stall closest to the front door. 

So extend the drive past the garage opening to at least the corner of garage. 25' out of the 33' drive leaves you with about 7' to sidewalk (12" CMU). You'll have about a 4.5' high wall. This 7' could become shallower making the wall more prominent if:
a. You want/req'd a grassy/landscape area between the drive and wall. Allows water to drain and snow to be pushed onto. May be req'd with this much surface (or catch basin).
b. A tire stop along here. Can be poured curb or wall cap, but CMUs don't hold up to grandma backing into them.
c. A railing might be required (and I assume would put a kabosh on this whole idea).

You can minimize the wall height to the HOA by raising the sloped grade and putting plantings there, or having a tiered wall on the west side.

Just note that a proper retaining wall to hold back this raised grade should be designed by an engineer. And a concrete subcontractor may be a whiz at laying concrete but know nothing about sitework. I would have more confidence in an excavator to remove the topcoat, compact the fill in layers. and a commercial landscaper to know how to properly drain and tieback a wall.

Also you should be the one walking through with the township on the impervious surface calc, curb cuts, and req'mts a/b/c, not the subcontractor.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> So extend the drive past the garage opening to at least the corner of garage.


We discussed having the concrete go to the corner of the garage on the west side and *possibly* have a small turning pad extend west closer to the sidewalk.



3onthetree said:


> 25' out of the 33' drive leaves you with about 7' to sidewalk (12" CMU). You'll have about a 4.5' high wall. This 7' could become shallower making the wall more prominent if:
> a. You want/req'd a grassy/landscape area between the drive and wall. Allows water to drain and snow to be pushed onto. May be req'd with this much surface (or catch basin).
> b. A tire stop along here. Can be poured curb or wall cap, but CMUs don't hold up to grandma backing into them.
> c. A railing might be required (and I assume would put a kabosh on this whole idea).


The idea that's been discussed, albeit very briefly, was to continue the small landscape bed that's in front of the current wall onto the front of the future wall (so in between the wall and the sidewalk) for aesthetic purposes.
I also think that your proposed "a" makes sense. It won't stop people from driving off but if I plant some ornamental shrubs/trees here (considering height/width) that should be fine. I thought about "b" but depending on space (once plans are actually drawn up) we may or may not want to take up more room if we are going to do "a" (which i think might help with dimension).



3onthetree said:


> You can minimize the wall height to the HOA by raising the sloped grade and putting plantings there, or having a tiered wall on the west side.


Curious to learn more about what you're talking about here with "raising the sloped grade" and "tiered wall" - I'm assuming you're referring to the grassy area on the west side of the driveway. I hope they consider the fact that my lot is extremely unique due to the undulations and I'm doing this for practical reasons while being very keen to the look. IMO it could look "too" nice for the neighborhood when all said and done (nice plantings + landscape lighting, etc.)



3onthetree said:


> Just note that a proper retaining wall to hold back this raised grade should be designed by an engineer. And a concrete subcontractor may be a whiz at laying concrete but know nothing about sitework. I would have more confidence in an excavator to remove the topcoat, compact the fill in layers. and a commercial landscaper to know how to properly drain and tieback a wall.
> 
> Also you should be the one walking through with the township on the impervious surface calc, curb cuts, and req'mts a/b/c, not the subcontractor.


Great points. The company I'm working with currently is a commercial landscaper that specializes in concrete driveways and retaining walls (lucky me). I will absolutely be involved in every step along the way since this is a major project. Appreciate your thorough input!


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Option 4: put flat area for kids to play in wherever you want, fit driveway around it. Sawcut grooves perpendicularly to vehicular travel direction like they do on bridges, for traction.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

We are going to pursue "option 2" and have the drive come in from the far east side of the property. We shot some elevations and did some measurements. The slope up to the top/flat area will be less than originally anticipated since we want a grade from the garage down to the wall for drainage.

Does 4% sound like too much grade for a "flat" area? I've read that 2% is the minimum recommendation but is doubling that overdoing it? I believe that results in roughly a 1-foot fall from the garage to the wall.


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

fusebox7 said:


> Does 4% sound like too much grade for a "flat" area? I've read that 2% is the minimum recommendation but is doubling that overdoing it?


The short answer is yes. The long answer I have two opinions.

The pro opinion sets grades given a puzzle with many variables which usually arrives at the minimal solution acceptable for the general public and governing authority (the wall height matters).

The personal opinion is derived from my own varied-slope driveway (used by lots of kids, car projects, carpentry, and such).
2%@20' at the garage - way too steep for kids play or my use
8%@20' entrance from street - max steep in winter to get up with summer tires

If you're spending upwards of $60K with the most important variable being an area for the kids, your personal enjoyment should dictate and go for as flat as you can without impeding water flow.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

3onthetree said:


> The short answer is yes. The long answer I have two opinions.
> 
> The pro opinion sets grades given a puzzle with many variables which usually arrives at the minimal solution acceptable for the general public and governing authority (the wall height matters).
> 
> ...


Interesting take. I didn't expect that response but if you make it extremely "flat" (less than 2% in your case) wouldn't you need additional drainage to avoid pooling of water?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

1% flows


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Have you found areas like the mall parking lots that are 2 or 4% so you know what that would look and feel like?


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## 3onthetree (Dec 7, 2018)

I know builders who work backwards from a 1% driveway to set the top of foundation - it usually winds up less than 1%. Water won't move much solids, but will flow slowly. I would say the closer to level the more important haunches and grade being below the edges becomes.

I'm not recommending less than 2%, just giving an opinion for you to weigh.


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## fusebox7 (Mar 8, 2019)

The sidewalk on our lot varies from 2-4% and it seems reasonable but like you've said, if we're going through the trouble, might as well go flat as possible. Assuming there won't be drainage issues I would absolutely prefer "Basketball court flat".


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## Calson (Jan 23, 2019)

I would check to see if there is enough space to put in concrete steps that parallel the driveway to allow people to walk up them. Not unusual to see homes with steep driveways where the steps are in the very center going up to a home. A width of 24 inches is adequate and a tread depth of 11" or more with maximum riser height of 6 inches is very easy to navigate. 

For the garage I would put down a length of rubber garage door weather strip as this will be high enough to prevent toys from rolling down to the driveway. 

I have a similar driveway and even with a very rough surface finish it is still slippery and with my pickup truck I need to put it into 4WD to not spin the tires and leave rubber on the concrete. 

I created a secondary parking area with the driveway as a Y to the right and this provided a flat space for parking outside of the garage. I added a pad on the other side of the garage as well for even more flat parking area.


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## nekraliuga (Apr 19, 2019)

Hi, I'm new here.  Saw the pics you've shared. What a quite big driveway project you've got. Good luck on that.

Cheers, :wink2:
Nek from Las Vegas Garage Door Repair


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