# Natural Gas



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

HI;

I am not sure if anyone here can help me with this. If there is a better place to ask, please let me know.

I have black iron running to my furnace, I believe it is 1 inch (measures 1 3/8 on the outside) before connecting to the furnace, there is a reducer that makes it 1/2 inch pipe that connects to the furnace. 

I want to add onto this gas line so I can connect in a 53,000-BTU natural gas grill. I was going to add in a T on the 1 inch and then run the line out to the grill off of the 1 inch.

From where my meter enters the house, there are 2 natural gas lines, the one I just described only feeds the furnace right now. The second line coming in from the meter goes to the water heater, and the dryer. I also plan to add in a gas oven off of the line the dryer and hot water heater are on.

Any suggestions on how I know if my sizing in proper, I don't want my 85,000 BTU gas furnace to be starving for gas and to develop problems.

If photos and diagrams would help, let me know and I will upload.

Thanks
Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Jamie, I moved your thread here to plumbing from the HVAC section. I can help you make sure your pipes are of adequate size to serve the future demand. 

From what I understand, you have two different gas lines entering your house from your meter, correct? If so, we'll size your gas system as two separate systems. If one pipe enters your house and then branches off, it is one system. Please clarify that.

Every single piece of gasline in the house is based on one distance measurement, and not the length of the individual pipes or branches. The distance needed is the distance from the meter to the appliance the farthest away from the meter, in feet of pipe. Once I know that measurement, I can size any piece of pipe in your home. Actually, if you have two separate pipes entering the home, it'll be two measurements. _If the new gas grill will be the longest run, approximate the length based on how you'd run the pipe_. Accuracy within a few feet will normally suffice. 

Given the btu/h info you've provided, once I have the length I can get you really close. I'll be using the sizing tables in the International Fuel Gas Code, FYI.


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> If photos and diagrams would help, let me know and I will upload.


A diagram would make this much easier, but we can probably get by without it.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Jamie, I moved your thread here to plumbing from the HVAC section. I can help you make sure your pipes are of adequate size to serve the future demand.
> 
> Thanks!, I wasn't sure if gas was dealt with by the plumbing guys or the hvac guys. Thanks for the info.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your help. After your message came, I just went down to the basement and crawl space and etc and did all the measurements and some photos. The numbers are all going to be quite close, give or take 1-2% overall.

I will put together the diagram and photos right now and post it when I am done. 

I have one other question, Does gas come in to the meter at a higher pressure, then get knocked down before being fed into the house? As the line from the gas co is smaller than the line going into the house:

This is my Gas Meter:









This is the pipe on the left gas co side of the meter with a tape on it:










Pipe on the right side, going into the house:









Just a shot of the gas line going into the house, Not sure what someone wrapped all over it... Something to try and close up the hole in the foundation maybe...

This is a overview shot of the whole meter:











It looks to me like the incoming pipe line is barely an inch (maybe right at an inch OD - see photo). Does the 1 inch size of the incoming line severely limit what I can do / run? 

It will take me a little longer to get the drawing done, then I will post it.

Thanks
Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Most gas meters have 1" threads, so no matter what you do, you're necking it down to 1" for a short distance. Seems silly to have a 2" or 3" gasline necked down to 1", but that's the way of things. 

Unless you have a 2psi pressure system, your meter is putting out 1/2"psi. With an elevated 2psi system you'd have a regulator in your house. Most homes don't have this.

I'll check back when I have a little more time and your measurements are posted.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

HI;

Sorry it took me a while to put this together. These scale drawings always take a long time to do. I think this image / drawing tells the whole story:










Above: The add-on gas like for the grill would be about 15 feet of black iron inside, then the standard grills hook-up hose. The new stove / over in the kitchen would take about 8 more feet of pipe.


Where the gas line comes into the crawl space - just though the wall from the meter:


















The T that goes to the Water Heater:












This is the elbow that is a 1 inch to half inch for the half inch dryer line. Right at this elbow is where we would need to add about 6 feet or so of straight pipe to be able to connect the gas stove.










One Last Photo, this is where the pipe again reduces from 1 inch to one half inch right in front of the furnace. This is the area that I would want to tap into to connect the grill.

Just a quick appliance summary:

Current:
1. 80,000 BTU furnace (high effeic.)
2. 40,000 BTU water heater
3. Standard Gas Dryer (I can figure out the BTU's for it if you need to know them.

Want to add Now:
1. Standard Gas Range / Oven
2. Outdoor 55,000 BTU Gas Grill

Would possibly add in the future:
1 or 2 30,000 BTU gas patio heater
Larger gas water heater
Gas heater for small indoor hot tub

Thanks so much for your input and suggestions. My dad and I have worked on gas pipe many many times in our lives, however, we have never dealt with sizing issues, as it was normally a situation where we were moving or replacing something. This is also the most gas items that we have ever had in a house.

Thanks Again,

Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Starting with the lower half of the diagram....

The longest run in the entire house is 60' (the run from the meter to the grill). That's the only measurement we will use to do this. 

The 1" line coming into the house is good for 260000 btu/h's at 60'. You can actually make the run to the grill 1/2" black pipe instead of running larger pipe out there. Figured based on the 60' measurement as required, 1/2" is good for 66000 btu/h's...Since we're past the furnace we can drop its btu/h load off for sizing the branch to the grill. 

If you intend to run the patio heater off the same pipe as the grill, install 3/4" pipe so you have some room for growth on that branch. 3/4" is good for 138000 btu/h's (55000 grill + 60000 two heaters) per the table, so it will adequately give you the growth room. 

Now the top of the diagram...

The 1" run is a bit shorter. Everything still applies. Total proposed load on this 1" line will be approximately 130000 btu/h's (40k water heater, 50k range, 40k dryer). 1" can handle this with no problem. You can easily drop down to 1/2" for your gas range unless it is a big fancy commercial unit. Remember, 1/2" is good for 66k at 60'. 

Now, the total (proposed) load on the house including two patio heaters...

Approximately 325000 btu/h's with 60' of run. Now we're a little undersized for the 1" pieces coming in from the meter. I'd suggest re-piping the short run from the meter to where the two runs of 1" go off in two directions. The pipe from the meter needs to be 1-1/4". You can tee off of it and reduce down to 1" to pick up those runs. You can reduce down to 1" right by the meter. The fitting outdoors to the right of the clear lens in the meter is an illegal fitting anyway...So it should be replaced. It has running non-tapered threads, and the pipe nipples are NPT tapered thread. The coupling needs to be a cast iron fitting with tapered threads...What is installed is a thread protector that is installed on pipe at the factory for shipment. They should be trashed after shipment and shouldn't be used for actual plumbing.

Don't forget to air test the new runs of pipe. Be sure to shut the valves to all appliances first. I'd suggest an air test of 10psi at least. You can get a pressure gauge at a plumbing supply store for a few bucks. Check for leaks with soapy water on each joint.

Hope I haven't confused the crap out of you. Let me know if you're confused on any of it.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

HI;
Thanks so much for all the great information, I followed everything perfectly up to this point, where I have a couple questions.

"Approximately 325000 btu/h's with 60' of run. Now we're a little undersized for the 1" pieces coming in from the meter. I'd suggest re-piping the short run from the meter to where the two runs of 1" go off in two directions. The pipe from the meter needs to be 1-1/4". You can tee off of it and"










.So are you talking about just re plumbing it starting at where I have the red box drawn and them into the house? Would any of the pipe on the left side of the meter get changed out?

"reduce down to 1" to pick up those runs. You can reduce down to 1" right by the meter."

.Meaning that I would run 1 1/4" to just inside the crawl space then put a 1-1/4" T on it, then use 1-1/4" to 1" reducers off of the T, 1 for each 1 inch pipe, correct?

"The fitting outdoors to the right of the clear lens in the meter is an illegal fitting anyway...So it should be replaced. It has running non-tapered threads, and the pipe nipples are NPT tapered thread. The coupling needs" 

.In the above photo, is this fitting the one that I drew a red box around? If so, then is the fitting I drew the yellow box around also illegal, as it looks very similar to me.

"to be a cast iron fitting with tapered threads...What is installed is a thread protector that is installed on pipe at the factory for shipment. They should be trashed after shipment and shouldn't be used for actual plumbing."

.Kind of amazing the things people try to get away with. I know that this entire gas setup (outside meter work, and all the main 1 inch runs in the house were done by someone that was licensed with a permit. 

Don't forget to air test the new runs of pipe. Be sure to shut the valves to all appliances first. I'd suggest an air test of 10psi at least. You can get a pressure gauge at a plumbing supply store for a few bucks. Check for leaks with soapy water on each joint.

Hope I haven't confused the crap out of you. Let me know if you're confused on any of it.

.I think I am following everything pretty well except for the slight question I mentioned above. 

I do have one other issue that I didn't mention before, as I didn't imagine we were going to get into this involved of a discussion here. 

At the joint where the water heater is T 'ed off of the 1 inch line, There is a small amount of gas leaking. Very small, however, I can smell a tiny bit of mercaptan near the joint. I have smelled a tiny amount over near the end of that top run that goes to the dryer, and think it might be in the 90 degree elbow where it makes the turn to go towards the dryer. 

It is a very small amount of mercaptan, because I can really smell it, even if a un-ignited burner is on for just a second, I can smell it all around the room. This I only noticed when I was right up by the pipe.

Now as I am sure you saw, they used the pipe compound on these gas pipe connections, and after 45 years, I am afraid that if I just put some wrenches on there and try to tighten it, that I am going to break the seal that is in place from the pipe compound and I am going to end up having to pull or cut out lots of pipe to fix it all.

I always use Tef Tape on black Iron gas pipe and it never leaks in my experience.

If I should try and do something about the "leaks" or not, I am not sure what I can do without a gut and replace.

One last question, just so I understand it, The pipe from the Gas co coming to the meter is 1 inch (unless it is 1-1/4 and I am measuring wrong). Does it come up to the meter with higher pressure that gets dropped in the meter or something that allows you to run 2 - 1" lines off of it?

I have a feeling your going to tell me to rip out everything back to the meter and start over. If I do that, could I run one 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 pipe from the meter to by the furnace where the first junction is anyway? It seems like a waste to have the 2 - 1 inch lines run just a couple feet away from each other for over 25 feet. I don't really want to re-do the pipes if I can help it, I have just been thinking about it, and am not sure what else I can do. I don't smell the mercaptan all the time when I go by that joint that goes to the water heater, but sometimes I do.

Thanks again

Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Answers to clear a few things up!


jamiedolan said:


> .So are you talking about just re plumbing it starting at where I have the red box drawn and them into the house? Would any of the pipe on the left side of the meter get changed out?
> No, the pipes coming out of the meter are the gas company's. You can't fool with them and there's no need to. They're at a fairly significant pressure as well.
> 
> "reduce down to 1" to pick up those runs. You can reduce down to 1" right by the meter."
> ...


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

You can feel pretty safe with my pipe sizing info, but I definately suggest that you contact your local building official to make sure that they agree with the sizes you're putting in. There are a lot of plumbers out there...And inspectors for that matter...That don't know how to correctly size gaslines based on the IFGC code. Older codes and different model codes utilize different methods, so this method isn't 100% fail-proof in all jurisdictions. 

I'd suggest taking the diagram you did in to them and showing them your plan before beginning.

By the way, the fittings you drew the boxes around are called _unions_, and you need them at the meter, the furnace, and basically any other gas appliance that doesn't use a flexible gas whip to attach it.


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

My 2 cents:

Excellent job KC. Good to know someone knows to use the IFGC and the running thread couplers not being legal. 

One thing I would mention about unions...at each appliance there needs to be an approved shut-off valve before the union...so the union is between the SO vlv and the appliance.


----------



## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

Just a thought from when I was doing gas work. You may want to verify that the meter can handle your peak demand. 
I had to have the gas company come out and upsize the meter from 275 to 425 to satisfy my peak demand when I switched to NG heat.


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

SD515 said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> Excellent job KC. Good to know someone knows to use the IFGC and the running thread couplers not being legal.
> Thanks for the nice comment.
> ...


Very good point about shutoff valves. You definately need to be able to cut off gas to just about any gas appliance before you take it loose! :thumbsup:


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Just for clarity's sake, here's a picture of a running thread "coupling." These things are illegal and unsafe 100% of the time. The elbow in the picture is fine.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> You can feel pretty safe with my pipe sizing
> By the way, the fittings you drew the boxes around are called _unions_, and you need them at the meter, the furnace, and basically any other gas appliance that doesn't use a flexible gas whip to attach it.


Thank you so much for the info and the clarifications on everything.

I understand exactly what you mean about the coupler now.

There are no unions in the house at all. (Update: I double checked - There is one union on the furnace after the valve - the one gas drop that my dad installed) I suspect it will be harder to unscrew the gas pipes to fix them since there are no unions inside. (just that one)

So I can skip the unions completely on the dryer, stove, and grill?

So would the only places I put unions be where the purple boxes are: (there is already one by the furnace)











******** I am editing this as I realized I made a mistake here, I checked and the gas pipe here for the furnace that my dad installed was done with pipe dope. He does use pipe dope on gas pipes. So I am not positive what the issue is that he had using pipe dope with the copper fittings mentioned below, but I checked with him and it was only the copper that he had problems with the pipe dope on and said he was going to use tef tape from now on with a copper to gav type connection****************

My dad has done many hundreds of plumbing connections for drains and water. When he has had to adapt from a sweat on copper fitting to a threaded, then connect the thread to something, he normally uses copper, but has used pipe dope a few times. At least on the water pipes, the last 2 times he has used pipe dope, it has leaked, but when he has used tef tape, he has never had it leak. The only thing I could think of that might have caused him a problem with the water was for example the most recent one he did that he has a problem with was for a well pump where he had to connect from new copper plumping he put in to a threaded galvinized connection on the well pump. However he had to solder on the copper once it was put together because of how the pump was setup, so I wondered if the heat of soldering destroyed the pipe dope and caused it to leak. 

I am not sure if my dad uses any specail brand of pipe dope on his gas connections though, I will check and see what he uses.

I just read an old conversation on here and they speak of using something called Rectorseal #5 for gas pipes, is this the best thing to use? Can I find this at a big box store?

Should I replace it in places that I currently have it installed. I am not sure where I got the idea that tef tape was a good idea for gas pipes, but I'll make sure not to use it anymore.


Thanks again
Jamie


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

SD515 said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> Excellent job KC. Good to know someone knows to use the IFGC and the running thread couplers not being legal.
> 
> One thing I would mention about unions...at each appliance there needs to be an approved shut-off valve before the union...so the union is between the SO vlv and the appliance.


I have shut off valves installed before all the appliances, but no unions. So are you saying, even on the dryer, I would have a valve, then a union, then the last of the 1/2 inch pipe and the flex hose to the dryer? Is there anywhere else I would need unions installed?

Jamie


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

Clutchcargo said:


> Just a thought from when I was doing gas work. You may want to verify that the meter can handle your peak demand.
> I had to have the gas company come out and upsize the meter from 275 to 425 to satisfy my peak demand when I switched to NG heat.


Thanks for the Tip. I will double check this. I wonder if it even says right on the meter. I can easily call them also, I need to find the right dept to talk to because when I called them (power / gas are the same company) about power, they could not tell me anything about my power meter or service.

Jamie


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Just for clarity's sake, here's a picture of a running thread "coupling." These things are illegal and unsafe 100% of the time. The elbow in the picture is fine.


HI

Your picture did not show up at all for some reason.

When I have a longer run, say from inside the house to where the water heater T is, (that is 4 or 5 - 10 foot pieces of pipe) do I need to use unions to connect every piece of that pipe?


I went and looked at the pipes again. I was mistaken, There is one union, it is on the furnace. I looked at the connections on the furnace pipe as well, and it was all done with pipe dope and not tef tape. My dad had installed the drop to the furnace, so he did use pipe dope on it. 

I am not really sure where got the idea that it was ok to use tef tape on gas pipes since my dad is obviously using pipe dope on his gas connections. I'll make sure to use pipe dope from now on.

Jamie


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

Jamie

I've used pipe dope by different manufacturers (currently I have Harvey's in my arsenal..but have used Rectorseal before). They all seem to work well. Just be sure it's rated for use with gas. Use a good amount...don't get crazy with it, but don't skimp either. Always use 2 wrenches to tighten the fittings good & snug. Tapered threads are 'self sealing' but there is also a need for the paste to fill ANY void. The amount of acceptable leaks in any gas piping system is zero. They do make a teflon tape rated for gas, but I never use it. To me, paste is the only way to go on gas lines.

Another tip... do not use paste or tape on flared fittings (this will apply to unions and your flex gas lines). A typical fitting for a flex line has a flare on one end, and a 'straight' on the other. The straight gets paste, the flare doesn't. A typical union has 3 parts...a female, which has a tapered side for regular pipe to screw into (this connection does get paste) and the other end of the female has a 'socket' for the flared male part to sit into. The 'big nut' that holds the male flare to the female socket does not get paste or tape. The male, has the flared part (no paste there) and a tapered side for regular pipe and gets paste there...just like the female. I've fixed connections before where someone has put paste on the flare itself...doesn't seal that way.

You do need a union at the water heater also, if it's all 'hard pipe'. You don't need a union at the stove, dryer and BBQ if you have flex pipe after the SO valve. The flex pipe is considered the union, or point of disconnection. Don't quote me word-wise, but basically, gas-fired appliances need a shut off valve within 3 feet of the appl, and a means outside of the appl for disconnecting the piping system between the SO vlv & the appl.
(may be slightly different in your area...but I'm sure your codes are pretty close).


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> When I have a longer run, say from inside the house to where the water heater T is, (that is 4 or 5 - 10 foot pieces of pipe) do I need to use unions to connect every piece of that pipe?


No. Couplers hook sections of pipe together.


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Agreed, you don't need unions where you're using flexible whip gas connectors. 

Just for clarity, understand that unions facilitate the removal or installation of an appliance from hard pipe systems. Without the union, you'd have to physically unscrew the water heater, fireplace, or furnace itself (that would be tough) or cut the pipe to remove it. 

Like SD515 accurately said, be sure you dope the threads of the union where the pipes connect to it, but don't dope the middle part of the union that screws together. Using dope at that part will guarantee a leak.

Also remember that unions and valves cannot be installed in concealed inaccessible spaces such as inside walls.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

SD515 said:


> if you have flex pipe after the SO valve. The flex pipe is considered the union, or point of disconnection. Don't quote me word-wise, but basically, gas-fired appliances need a shut off valve within 3 feet of the appl, and a means outside of the appl for disconnecting the piping system between the SO vlv & the appl.
> (may be slightly different in your area...but I'm sure your codes are pretty close).



On the dryer, I have the shut off valve at about 6' off the ground, then I have several feet below it of pipe before it connects to the flex hose. 

So even in that case, should I have a union there because the flex hose is not directly attached to the SO?

Jamie


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Just for clarity, understand that unions facilitate the removal or installation of an appliance from hard pipe systems. Without the union, you'd have to physically unscrew the water heater, fireplace, or furnace itself (that would be tough) or cut the pipe to remove it.



RE: Couplers, this would be a correct use of a coupler, because it is a black iron couple just jointing 2 sections of pipe (as opposed to the illegal coupler on the right side of the outside meter), correct?:









I also never got a good photo of the T where the line is coming in the house before to show you:











While I was back there in the crawl space where this comes in, I sniffed right up at that elbow and I could smell a little tiny bit of the mercaptan smell there also.

Why would I smell that, I mean the obvious answer is that there is some tiny leak, but why would that be happening, did the installer do something wrong?

Jamie


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> On the dryer, I have the shut off valve at about 6' off the ground, then I have several feet below it of pipe before it connects to the flex hose.
> 
> So even in that case, should I have a union there because the flex hose is not directly attached to the SO?
> 
> Jamie


No. The flex line would take the place of the union. The flex does not have to screw directly into the SO vlv. Your vlv being at 6 ft off the floor probably will suffice as it would be within 3 ft of the appliance or very close. Inspestors call there...but I won't tell 'em :no: 
Be sure that the pipe is secured to the wall.


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

jamiedolan said:


> RE: Couplers, this would be a correct use of a coupler, because it is a black iron couple just jointing 2 sections of pipe (as opposed to the illegal coupler on the right side of the outside meter), correct?: This photo is of what appears to be a running thread coupler (the exterior is the same diameter it's entire length)..and no, this is not what you want. A visual check of a correct coupler....it has 'hubs' at the open ends that are larger in diameter than the middle. (they are about 1/8-3/16 inch-ish wide...like the elbows and tee have in your next photo below). You'll know when you see one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As far as the installer doing something wrong??? :huh: Sometimes it's hard to get the elbows tight and facing the direction and on the exact plane they need to be. I've seen joints caked up with dope and the fitting be 'hand-loose'...I guess the installer didn't think he could get the fitting to make one more revolution. Sometimes it's a trick. Nothing up my sleeve...PRESTO


----------



## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

When I added to my gas line, I found two elbows that were just hand tightened, no tools required to remove. 
That was a "pro" that did that job. What I do is hand tighten and then at 1-2 more revolutions with a wrench, it usually ends up being 1.25-1.75 more twists. It's easier if this at the end of a long run, then you can just let the entire length take up the additional turns needed to end facing the right direction.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

SD515 said:


> [/color]
> As far as the installer doing something wrong??? :huh: Sometimes it's hard to get the elbows tight and facing the direction and on the exact plane they need to be. I've seen joints caked up with dope and the fitting be 'hand-loose'...I guess the installer didn't think he could get the fitting to make one more revolution. Sometimes it's a trick. Nothing up my sleeve...PRESTO


Thanks SD515. Now I understand what everyone means by couplers. My pipes have a number of problems then.. I suspect it is going to require a replacement of everything to get the proper fittings on and to get rid of all the leaks. 

The photo of the incoming T was in reference to the conversation with *thekctermite* where we were discussing replacing that T with a new T that is 1-1/4 inch going out to the meter.

Is there somewhere I can look at the sizing charts for gas pipe / usage? I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly that it would be ok (assuming it is ok with the city) to just run one 1-1/4 pipe instead of 2 1 inch pipes? That is what I understood thekctermite to say. I just wanted to make sure I understood him correctly in what he wrote. It doesn't seem like 1-1/4 inch of pipe would be equal to 2 1 inch pipes.

Thank you to thekctermite also for all of your help with this project and for educating me on the subject.

Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm not aware of an online resource that will walk you through sizing gaslines. Short of buying a code book and learning the methods used to size pipes, you're out of luck. I assure you that you can use one 1-1/4" pipe to serve your entire load. If you have more questions, feel free to post them and I can walk you through it.

Agreed, the picture of the "coupler" is an improper fitting. You can use couplers but they need to be cast iron and will look just like the elbows and tees in the gas system, only straight. If you're re-plumbing, I'd suggest removing the illegal fittings while you're in there working on it.


----------



## SD515 (Aug 17, 2008)

You're welcome...and you're a good student.

I don't have a copy of the international fuel gas code book...had access to it where I used to work. Since then I haven't done any sizing so haven't had a need to look at the charts. If you want to buy a copy I'm sure you can find it online, maybe at a local book store. I usually get my electrical code book from Schuler's Book store...like a Barnes & Noble. If you want to look at it...contact your local jurisdiction. They may let you stop in and look it over, or suggest where to be able to buy one. Sounds like KC has one...and he's been a great help on your project...ask if he would mind answering more of your sizing questions. He get's a handshake from me on his knowledge. :thumbup:

Again, I don't have the chart...but I don't think 1-1/4" capacity is the same as 2-1" pipes. But it doesn't necessarily have to be. As long as the 1-1/4" can supply the required BTUs/hr the appliances are demanding...everything's fine. Example....say on a given length of run, the 1-1/4 can carry 120% of the BTUs required for a given appliance...maybe 2-1" pipes can carry 150%. They both can carry the required amount, whereas maybe only one 1" pipe will carry 75% of required. Just an example...but you get the idea.


----------



## Clutchcargo (Mar 31, 2007)

jamiedolan said:


> Is there somewhere I can look at the sizing charts for gas pipe / usage? I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly that it would be ok (assuming it is ok with the city) to just run one 1-1/4 pipe instead of 2 1 inch pipes? That is what I understood thekctermite to say. I just wanted to make sure I understood him correctly in what he wrote. It doesn't seem like 1-1/4 inch of pipe would be equal to 2 1 inch pipes.
> Jamie


There is this for pipe size but it doesn't take into consideration friction loses due to elbows and Ts. 
http://www.propane-generators.com/natural-gas-chart.htm
I found the friction loses online once upon a time but I have since lost the link. I think I posted it on diychatroom someplace though.


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

SD515 said:


> Example....say on a given length of run, the 1-1/4 can carry 120% of the BTUs required for a given appliance...maybe 2-1" pipes can carry 150%. They both can carry the required amount, whereas maybe only one 1" pipe will carry 75% of required. Just an example...but you get the idea.


Excellent logic, and a very good explanation. :thumbsup:

From the table for a little reassurance...

1" pipe running 60' = maximum 260,000btu/h (a little undersized for your total future load)

1-1/4" pipe running 60' = maximum 530,000btu/h (more than adequate)


----------



## javan (Jun 9, 2008)

*Good Read!*

This was a good read for a guy getting ready to run gas to a new furnace, as well as swapping out the old 40 gal gas-fired wh for a wall mounted instantaneous.

Thanks guys!


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Glad to hear it Javan. Adding a tankless water heater to a home's gas system is equivalent to adding an average furnace, in terms of gas demand. It often requires some re-plumbing to get it done. :yes:


----------



## javan (Jun 9, 2008)

I am comfortable with the pipe size I have coming into the house to feed the furnace and the WH. Just need to run the new pipe to the furnace, since I already have a gas WH. Just the flex needs to be upsized to the new WH. I may start another thread for this though.


----------



## jamiedolan (Sep 2, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Excellent logic, and a very good explanation. :thumbsup:
> 
> From the table for a little reassurance...
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the confirmation on this. So with the 1-1/4 inch pipe, It sounds like I could even add a Tank less water heater at some point if I wanted to. (I've seen them up to 199,000 BTU)..

I am wondering if you know where I can get 1-1/4 inch black Iron and fittings? I checked with the big box stores and they do not carry 1-1/4 black iron pipe nor the fittings. I am checking with some plumbing supply houses to see if there is someone that will sell me a few pieces of pipe retail. 

With my Gas Meter, Should I check with the gas company and see if there is an upgraded meter that should be installed at all? or is my current meter adequate for my current and future needs? Would my current meter support the full 530,000BTU/h with 1-1/4"? So whats the limit to the amount of gas the 1 inch (gas co side) can supply? I take it that gas is much different than water where a 1 inch line can only even put out something like 14 GPM @ 60psi. (I assume it is different because water is the same pressure coming into the meter and it is going out into your home, and gas is some higher PSI coming in and it is 1/2 psi going out into your home?

Thanks Again.
Jamie


----------



## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Any decent plumbing supply house will have 1-1/4" black iron pipe. Shorter nipples might be harder to come by...Most plumbers cut and thread on site (you can probably rent the tools if you want). You may need to have them cut and thread your short lengths, if any.

As for the meter, I don't know. Nearly all meters deliver 1/2psi, but I was unaware that there were meters for higher gas demands. I would contact the gas utility and inquire about your current meter versus your future gas demand needs.


----------

