# Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?



## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

Yup. Many "Pros" do sloppy work because it is money in their pocket if they they don't get called on it. You are right on every point you raise. Tell this "Pro" he is working for you and will do as he promised. Exception, sanding all the walls? Wall prep dose not require a general sanding. They need to have imperfections repaired then be cleaned. Repaired areas will need minor sanding perhaps.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

PoleCat said:


> Yup. Many "Pros" do sloppy work because it is money in their pocket if they they don't get called on it. You are right on every point you raise. Tell this "Pro" he is working for you and will do as he promised. Exception, sanding all the walls? Wall prep dose not require a general sanding. They need to have imperfections repaired then be cleaned. Repaired areas will need minor sanding perhaps.


Good to know. The expectation of sanding comes from his contract, not from me. For interior painting it just says "Surfaces to be painted will receive a standard preparation. This includes a light standing, filling of nail holes or imperfections in the walls by minor patching, and caulking woodwork and window frames to drywall in needed areas". Weird that it talks about sanding but says nothing about cleaning. Maybe I should be running around cleaning the walls and trim myself. 

It's my understanding that trim should be sanded prior to a repaint though right? Especially if there's peeling/chipped paint involved?


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Sloan said:


> Good to know. The expectation of sanding comes from his contract, not from me. For interior painting it just says "Surfaces to be painted will receive a standard preparation. This includes a light standing, filling of nail holes or imperfections in the walls by minor patching, and caulking woodwork and window frames to drywall in needed areas". Weird that it talks about sanding but says nothing about cleaning. Maybe I should be running around cleaning the walls and trim myself.
> 
> It's my understanding that trim should be sanded prior to a repaint though right? Especially if there's peeling/chipped paint involved?



Yes sanding the trim, and often the walls is standard prep. On a 1950's house, lead testing should be done before any sanding/scraping. Fairly high chances of lead paint in houses of that age. Hope your guy is RRP certified as required. 

As to your other concerns, I don't see them as unreasonable. You may be being a little OCD about it, but all the things you mentioned are valid concerns IMO.


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## Matthewt1970 (Sep 16, 2008)

Sanding should always be done as you sometimes don't know an area really needed it until you see what the sandpaper took off. All nail holes should be filled and sanded unless previously agreed on like if a painting is going right back up.

Caulking is hard to judge without seeing their work. If something on the wall or trim is causing the caulk to have lumps it should have been sanded. Caulking the edge of a door or window frame that has a perpendicular wall running close by depends on if you can get the caulk tip in at the angle you need. Sometimes it's better to leave it be rather than try and glob it in there and then using your finger to push it where you want it. 

Not painting above door and window frames isn't lazy. If you can't see it most people don't care if it's painted or not.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yes sanding the trim, and often the walls is standard prep. On a 1950's house, lead testing should be done before any sanding/scraping. Fairly high chances of lead paint in houses of that age. Hope your guy is RRP certified as required.
> 
> As to your other concerns, I don't see them as unreasonable. You may be being a little OCD about it, but all the things you mentioned are valid concerns IMO.


 
wanna bet?:laughing:


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## eandjsdad (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm RRP certified. I'll clean before painting old houses, but sanding (compliance) bumps the cost up and gives only an incremental improvement in the final job - I avoid it.

Chips in the underlying trim paint shouldn't be noticeable - they should have been feathered or filled. 

Tops of window / door trim should be caulked and painted.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Seems like all these problems/potential problems could be alleviated by ONE thing: Communication.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

*very good work for a agreed upon price*



Sloan said:


> Stuff I've noticed with their trim work:
> 
> 1. Not painting the top edge of any window or door frames. I've read in some places that this is standard and others that this is lazy. It's a one-story ranch so nobody sees that area, but it's rough and hard to clean when it's not painted. Am I being unreasonable in wanting them to paint it?! My contract states "all trim to be prepped and painted", not "all trim except the top edge that nobody sees".
> 
> ...


Ok, let me tell you how it should be. You are not unreasonable and you should get exactly what you paid money for in your contract. Every dimes worth.
I have been in business over 25 years and I have seen and heard it ALL. I constantly fix other contractor mistakes and shoddy work. And home owners bad work or failed attempts, too. First off, painting is not a trade that takes a college education or a degree. Anyone can claim to be a painter and go in business easily. Many laid off factory workers become instant painters and go on Craigslist the next day. Many teenage kids looking for a fast buck work as cheap labor for painters. Then you have the "HEY, I'm a great painter and will work for almost free." "I'll do your entire house for $99.00, etc." 
Now I am not knocking painters regarding education, some have a higher education than myself. I am a painter and many other trades are under my belt. And I have made a lot of money being one. But the trade is full of less than desirables and unscrupulous kinds. I hope you get my drift here.
Look, a good company, One-man or otherwise, earns their reputation by doing very good work for a agreed upon price. 
Expensive or not, it does not matter. Price should not be relevant to good work. It can be an indication of it, but let the buyer beware. What is relevant to finding a great painter or company is reputation, word of mouth, references from people you know and trust.

To address your issues by number...

1. Not painting the top edge of any window or door frames. 

*** Every area in that contract should be to specification. That includes the tops of all doors and windows. It is very easy to do and only takes a minute to do the job right. That should have been a tip off to you that those painters are less than honest. Even if it seems to be difficult to get at some areas, a true and good painter knows how, and it's very easy.
(you can contact me privately and I'll tell you how to do it, I'm not giving away my business secrets publically for the shoddy painters who may be reading this)
The same with tight door frames close to walls.

2. Inconsistent caulking. 

*** Same as above basically. Caulking is fairly hard to do when you don't know what you are doing. It can become very messy, very quickly. And the end result can become horrible looking. Lots of practice here is the key to a good job. I don't put most of my young guys on caulking a customers home until I am positive they are good enough at it. 
Insist on every nook and cranny being caulked properly. No lumps, no bumps, no missed spots and consistent width. A proper caulking can make or break a fine job.
You are paying them your hard earned money to do the job the right way. Make them earn their money the hard way, as you do. If it's not right, make them rip it out and start over.

3. Suboptimal surface prep.

*** Per the contract, all areas to be lightly sanded. The key word is "all", that includes the walls. It might just be a light sanding to knock down tiny imperfections or it may take some real effort. Every job is different here and it depends on what you are applying, over what.
If you want real perfection for your walls, speaking drywall, you need a Level 5 drywall job done first, usually done by a drywall guy. But I myself do Level 5. It adds a lot to your cost but makes for a beautiful finished job. And it requires a degree of skill, the mud needs to be the right mix/consistency. Experience really counts here. And using the right mud. Trade secrets not talked about much, father to son stuff.

If you can tell they didn't sand your walls, stand up for yourself and demand to the owner that he go over every wall again, AFTER light sanding them.
If you wind up with a free coat of paint, too bad for him. Maybe he will learn a valuable lesson.
And do NOT pay until you are satisfied with the job, totally and in every way.
You are in control of your situation, you might just not know it. Money talks. If he has to wait and sweat it out because you refuse to pay until it is done right, he will be forced to fix things as soon as he realizes you are serious. He has a payroll to meet, he has supplier bills to pay. He will get the picture soon enough.
Don't feel bad about doing this, you are paying him. He wants your MONEY.


<> then he's gonna have to just go to the Benny Moore store and get it done right. 

**** Exactly, force him to do just that, and check the paint cans to make sure.
Save a empty can, too. For color match later. If there is any paint left over, get it from him.

<> and I'd be more comfortable doing a walk through of the trim and getting those issues fixed before color goes on the walls. Is that unreasonable? He seemed to balk at the idea. 

**** You are correct, the trim should be perfect before the wall coating gets applied. 
However, you can't force this one. The final walkthrough will have to suffice. Then hold him to it, again, *do not pay until you are happy*.

I wish you much luck, and next time, do some research. Ask for references and SPEAK to the references. Get at least 3. State that you are going to ask the references if you can actually see the work. This is not crazy talk, it eliminates friends and brother-in-laws and drug addicts from being references.
You don't need to go see the work really, especially interior work, but just mention it to the contractor. 
Shakey contractors will fall apart right away when you tell them you are going to call and ask to actually see the quality work they do.

Bottom line, it's your money. Spend it wisely. Any honest painter worth his salt will be happy to comply with your requests.

Look, we do a lot of work, and I mean a LOT.
90% of our customers are return customers or have been referred by our customers. We do it all, residential, commercial and industrial. We have never had a call back or dis-satisfied customer. Never in over 20 years. It is due to the way we conduct business and treat our customer. It doesn't make a difference to us whether you spend $500.00 or $500,000.00 with us. We give you exactly what you paid for. And sometimes a little more.
By the way, I am NOT stating all this looking for work, I have way too much now. This is NOT advertising in any way. *Don't call me, please.* I don't need the work and I am serious.
I just plopped this together to give you an idea of what you should be looking for in a quality paint company. 
References, references...references. Get them.
Happy holidays.

http://www.qualitypainting-staining.com/

Designers and specifiers are encouraged to
consult the following reference documents:

ASTM C11,Standard Terminology Relating to
Gypsum and Related Building Materials and Systems
ASTM International,West Conshohocken, PA.

ASTM C 840,Standard Specification for
Application and Finish of Gypsum Board
ASTM International,West Conshohocken, PA.

GA-216,Application and Finishing of Gypsum
Panel Products, 2010. Gypsum Association,
Hyattsville,MD

Master Painters Glossary, Painting and Decorating
Contractors of America, St.Louis,MO.
Contact one of the following associations for
additional assistance:

Association of the Wall and Ceiling Industry
513 West Broad Street, Suite 210
Falls Church, VA 22046-3257
Telephone: (703) 538-1600
www.awci.org

Ceilings & Interior Systems Construction
Association
405 Illinois Avenue, Unit 2B
St. Charles, Illinois 60174
Telephone: (630) 584-1919
www.cisca.org

Drywall Finishing Council
www.dwfc.org

Gypsum Association
6525 Belcrest Road, Suite 480
Hyattsville, Maryland 20782
Telephone: (301) 277-8686
www.gypsum.org

Painting and Decorating Contractors of
America
1801 Park 270 Drive, Suite 220
St. Louis, MO 63146
Telephone: (314) 514-7322
www.pdca.com


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

The only thing I see is when you say you haven't seen them sand. They could have sanded when you weren't there, a light sanding is usually just to take boogers off and may not really be visible.
As far as the paint colors go I would stop him and demand he use the Ben Moore you selected.
Definitely make him re-caulk a poor job will take a lot away from a great paint job.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

They should paint the top of the trim if you want them to, for the reason you mentioned (cleaning).

Surface prep is lacking, but then again I'm just going by what you're saying - if it should be done and it's not being done, then it should be done 

Personally I haven't gone up in color percentage, only down. e.g. I've done 50% or 75% colors. Assuming you can go up (I assume you can) it should be no problem at all for those color matches. If he hasn't given you a specific reason (such as the tint amount for 200% in that color is beyond the maximum tint they will put in that base), then he's just being difficult. Obviously you should not be expected to provide color samples to him if he's already said he can do it. The major paint companies can usually match each other's colors anyway, without computer matching. I don't use PPG, but I'm pretty sure Sherwin Williams will already have Gray Owl in their database, and of course doing 150% is a no-brainer from there (assuming what I said above).

If I were working in your home and you asked me to do something reasonable like fix the trim now, I would certainly try to keep you happy. The guy sounds kind of like a goof to me. But then the industry is full of them.

It's normal for the homeowner to stay at home, although please do stay out of their way.


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## eandjsdad (Dec 22, 2013)

Gymschu said:


> Seems like all these problems/potential problems could be alleviated by ONE thing: Communication.


There's a more clear way to communicate than a written contract?:whistling2:


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

eandjsdad said:


> There's a more clear way to communicate than a written contract?:whistling2:


I guess my statement was left to lots of interpretation. By communication I should have stated the written contract, change orders, verbal, really all the variables of communication that can keep trouble at bay.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Sit down with the owner of the co. and your contract tell him everything you told us. Show him what you mean. If he starts arguing then it is time to find a new painter.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice guys. This whole situation is so stressful, especially since I haven't used a professional painter before.

He never did the trim walk-through with me, and they've gone on to painting the walls. One room they painted the wrong color (despite a very clear e-mail specifying exactly which colors in which rooms). In a lot of places the line between trim and wall isn't as clean as I'd like; i.e. there's paint coming up onto the window frames and such. It's not awful, but it's not much better than what I could do myself. I'm paying for a pro because I want perfect results, and I'm disappointed. I've also noticed that the caulk they've used is cracking on almost every window (almost looks like little black hairs in the caulk)…it's TopGun 140. Not sure if it's a product issue or an application issue.

I don't know where to go from here. I've already paid him 50% of the job cost. Of course I'll withhold the rest until I'm satisfied, but what should I do in the meantime? Just wait for the final walk-through to point out the multitude of things that are wrong, since he brushed me off when I tried to do one with him earlier? I'm not really comfortable with that. I won't be here when they return Monday (I'm working); should I just tell him to come on Tuesday so we can talk? Or e-mail him today?

It's frustrating how hard it is to find a good painter.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Too bad about that stuff. It would actually be better if something was a disaster, then you could dismiss him without paying more. Unfortunately it's annoying stuff, like weak paint lines. I understand the frustration of paying for mediocre work. You're not paying just so you don't have to do it - you're paying for results that are better than you could achieve, through some magical skill the painters have obtained over the decades.

TopGun 140 is typical cheap painters caulk, about like DAP Alex. Painters like it because it's cheap and dries fast to paint over. Has little flexibility. Alex Plus is basically a minimum caulk for me, although the cheap stuff could be used for hairline cracks that I don't think will move. I prefer Dynaflex 230, or Alex Ultra 230, which is basically Dynaflex 230 with mold inhibitors, I believe. Most painters won't pay for this caulk. The way I look at it, it only adds $2 per job for my smaller jobs, so I just add $2 to my price. They way they look at it, it's $4 extra for their bigger jobs, multiplied by 300 jobs per year = $1200 they save and no one ever asks them what caulk they use or how long it should last.


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## Nailbags (Feb 1, 2012)

JackoD said:


> Ok, let me tell you how it should be. You are not unreasonable and you should get exactly what you paid money for in your contract. Every dimes worth.
> I have been in business over 25 years and I have seen and heard it ALL. I constantly fix other contractor mistakes and shoddy work. And home owners bad work or failed attempts, too. First off, painting is not a trade that takes a college education or a degree. Anyone can claim to be a painter and go in business easily. Many laid off factory workers become instant painters and go on Craigslist the next day. Many teenage kids looking for a fast buck work as cheap labor for painters. Then you have the "HEY, I'm a great painter and will work for almost free." "I'll do your entire house for $99.00, etc."
> Now I am not knocking painters regarding education, some have a higher education than myself. I am a painter and many other trades are under my belt. And I have made a lot of money being one. But the trade is full of less than desirables and unscrupulous kinds. I hope you get my drift here.
> Look, a good company, One-man or otherwise, earns their reputation by doing very good work for a agreed upon price.
> ...


Great advice and well written out.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Do we seriously need to copy that entire thing?


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Too bad about that stuff. It would actually be better if something was a disaster, then you could dismiss him without paying more. Unfortunately it's annoying stuff, like weak paint lines.
> 
> TopGun 140 is typical cheap painters caulk, about like DAP Alex. Painters like it because it's cheap and dries fast to paint over. Has little flexibility. Alex Plus is basically a minimum caulk for me, although the cheap stuff could be used for hairline cracks that I don't think will move. I prefer Dynaflex 230, or Alex Ultra 230, which is basically Dynaflex 230 with mold inhibitors, I believe. Most painters won't pay for this caulk. The way I look at it, it only adds $2 per job for my smaller jobs, so I just add $2 to my price. They way they look at it, it's $4 extra for their bigger jobs, multiplied by 300 jobs per year = $1200 they save and no one ever asks them what caulk they use or how long it should last.



To fix a cracking caulk issue, they would have to first remove the old caulk and then re-do the area with new caulk, correct? I suspect when I point this out to him, he'll try to have his guys simply caulk over the existing stuff.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

There's basically no way they're going to remove the old caulk. You might not even want that - he'll be tearing your drywall. Just get them to caulk back over it with a low shrink, higher quality caulk. I suppose he doesn't have to - he could recaulk with the same caulk and it would look better.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> There's basically no way they're going to remove the old caulk. You might not even want that - he'll be tearing your drywall. Just get them to caulk back over it with a low shrink, higher quality caulk. I suppose he doesn't have to - he could recaulk with the same caulk and it would look better.


The cracks are so bizarre-looking. If I knew how to post a picture on here I would…it's legitimately hard to tell if the caulk is cracked or if someone smoothed it with a hairy rag, it looks like tons of tiny dark hairs all up in there. It's happening the most on windows (as opposed to the crown molding on interior walls for example), so I wonder if it's because it's cold outside? Or because the window frame is vinyl and the trim is wood? In any case, it looks bad and needs to get fixed somehow.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

It's possible you're seeing something below the caulk. That is, when the caulk was applied with the gun or smoothed with their finger, it was pressed down to the point where that stuff is showing through. If so and there's no cracking, simply painting should fix it.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Maybe, but that would mean that whatever it is is throughout the house. I really think it's a caulk issue; guess I'll find out when I ask them about it!


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

*It certainly IS easy enough to remove the junk he used*



Sloan said:


> To fix a cracking caulk issue, they would have to first remove the old caulk and then re-do the area with new caulk, correct? I suspect when I point this out to him, he'll try to have his guys simply caulk over the existing stuff.


I only use Sherwin Williams 850A Acrylic Latex or Sherwin Williams 950A Siliconized paintable Acrylic Latex Caulk for applications such as yours. There are so many other junk caulks out there I don't even bother with anything else now. Cripe sakes, I have in the past tried caulks the disappeared almost entirely overnight on me from shrinkage. The shrinkage or cracking issues just don't happen with the SW caulks. And they don't discolor as many cheap caulks do.
Cheap insurance for me. It adds a few dollars to a project but saves a ton of dollars in headaches.

Any areas which have problems should be entirely removed and re-caulked correctly, with a good caulk., not just gone over. Especially not done over with a different caulk brand. Adhesion will become your next issue if you do that. And the caulk will not match, you will see the new stuff differently from the old stuff.
I would do each "run" over, removing the old caulk. By "run" I mean an entire length of a surface. Example: say you have a 3 inch bad area on the left side of a window or door, I would remove the caulk on the entire left side to redo it properly.
It certainly IS easy enough to remove the junk he used, contrary to what someone else said here, it just takes the knowledge of how to remove it without creating bigger problems.

Now many here may say it is overkill to do things my way and it may be, to them.
However, I built my business on doing things the right way, and my business has been good to me for just that reason. When I got into it many years ago, I decided at that time the way to become successful, truly successful, was to be different than the rest. So much so, that people would recognize me for that alone. And the rest is history.
Speaking of history, my company has been awarded many contracts in five cities in NY state to do historical preservation and restoration work on some pretty exclusive properties. These properties are all on the National Registry. I am now bidding in NYC. These awarded contracts do not come easily. The contracts are so detailed and hard to fulfill, most paint companies don't even want them. Why? Because typically you have a board that does a final inspection and approval. And your work better be perfect to get paid in any manner of time, or without going to court.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

JackoD said:


> I only use Sherwin Williams 850A Acrylic Latex or Sherwin Williams 950A Siliconized paintable Acrylic Latex Caulk for applications such as yours. There are so many other junk caulks out there I don't even bother with anything else now.


Dynaflex 230/Alex Ultra 230 are siliconized latex caulks.



JackoD said:


> It certainly IS easy enough to remove the junk he used, contrary to what someone else said here, it just takes the knowledge of how to remove it without creating bigger problems.


Anyone who can't create straight paint lines is most likely going to create more problems by scraping off old caulk.



JackoD said:


> So much so, that people would recognize me for that alone. And the rest is history. Speaking of history, my company...


Unnecessary remarks removed.



JackoD said:


> If you need more help regarding the right way to remove the caulk, PM me. I do not give this kind of info out generically.


Unnecessary remarks removed.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Hey, the tips are good and it's easier than caulking or painting.*



jeffnc said:


> Dynaflex 230/Alex Ultra 230 are siliconized latex caulks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She "shouldn't" remove the bad caulk?
That's what you said.
And I am sorry but that is just wrong, flat out wrong. 

As far as your statement: Anyone who can't create straight paint lines is most likely going to create more problems by scraping off old caulk.

You would NOT "scrape" off the old caulk. That is not how it is done.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Dynaflex 230/Alex Ultra 230 are siliconized latex caulks.


Both products are pure garbage. I hope you don't use them.


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

If you already know you aren't going to pay him the balance, why don't you just stop him now instead of waiting for him to do more work.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Unnecessary remarks removed.


 
Special? No, I am not special. Just a hard working guy that knows what he is doing.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

ParagonEx said:


> If you already know you aren't going to pay him the balance, why don't you just stop him now instead of waiting for him to do more work.


I don't already know that I won't pay him the balance; if he fixes these issues to my satisfaction then I'll have no problem paying him. I just want it to be done right. I don't want to stop him now because I've already paid him 50% of the project cost and don't have the cash on hand to turn around and pay another painter to redo everything.

Since he has been so insistent on simply doing a walk-through at project completion despite the fact that I've tried to bring up my concerns, then that's what we'll do. I'll let him finish painting all the rooms, then go through with him at the end and point out all the things I've attempted to point out thus far and been ignored. If he doesn't fix them, he won't get paid, plain and simple. I am a little confused about how I should expect him to fix the caulk problems (removing and reapplying or just applying over existing cracked stuff), due to the differing opinions here.

The advantage for me is that pretty much all of the issues going on can be resolved by re-doing the trim work correctly. I don't have enough cash to pay another painter to do the entire paint job, but I would have enough to pay someone else to do the trim only. 

JackoD, I'll PM you as soon as I get the requisite 15 posts. This forum won't even let me reply to PMs sent to me until I hit the magic number 15.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sloan said:


> JackoD, I'll PM you as soon as I get the requisite 15 posts. This forum won't even let me reply to PMs sent to me until I hit the magic number 15.


Ok, as it seems my PM isn't working on this forum, here is my "ancient Chinese Secret", it's called "work" here in the U.S.
The caulk can be removed by carefully cutting it away with a utility knife and then, peel it away. I make a double cut line the entire length of the section I am repairing first, then peel. Simple as that... peel. As it is still fresh yet has had enough time to set and cure it will peel away easily. After score cutting it, use the point of the blade to get under the caulk and pry it up, then start peeling away. There won't be any "scraping" as someone else mentioned, to do. To make sure the new caulk will adhere properly, it’s important to remove any and all the small bits and pieces of old material. You can use a clean dry paint brush and take your time. That's all there is to it. Have a great day. :wink:


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Jacko….tried to send you a private message but it said you've elected to not receive them and/or aren't allowed to receive them. Maybe you can send one to me?

I do have a question for y'all about wood paneling. We have some in a small area of our house that has some pretty deep/intricate grooves between the panels. Paint has pooled and globbed up in these grooves and it looks terrible. I assume the cause was them using a roller to go over them, but I wasn't here when they did it so I'm not sure. What is the solution for that? One of the painters suggested caulking the grooves for a smoother paint job, but the company owner didn't want him to do that. Couldn't they just paint the grooves carefully with a brush instead of rolling over them? Seems to me that would create a fine result, although I'm not sure what they should do to fix the pooling that's already there from their first coat.

There's also gap in the caulk at the crown molding where the grooves are. Those should be filled in, right?


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

OK guys, I created an album on here with photos of some of the issues so you can see what I'm talking about. For some reason this site flipped them all sideways when I uploaded them and I can't figure out how to flip them back so they're right side up, but it'll at least give you an idea.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

http://www.diychatroom.com/members/sloan-214483/albums/paint-job/


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Sloan said:


> 3. Suboptimal surface prep. The contract states all areas to be painted will receive a light sanding and filling of nail holes or minor imperfections. When I've been here while they're working, I haven't seen anyone sand anything. I've seen several nail holes just painted over with no filling at all. In some areas the old paint is peeling and it looks like it was just painted right over.


I see a lot of areas on the trim that needed a lot more work than "light sanding"
The peeling paint needed to be feathered out, all loose paint removed first.
Would this fall into the light sanding category? Pros?

There's a ton of work required to get the trims to look good and I'm sure he didn't price it that way.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

123pugsy said:


> I see a lot of areas on the trim that needed a lot more work than "light sanding"
> The peeling paint needed to be feathered out, all loose paint removed first.
> Would this fall into the light sanding category? Pros?
> 
> There's a ton of work required to get the trims to look good and I'm sure he didn't price it that way.


That's the way I see it too. This looks like trim that has had many coats of paint applied and is in rough shape. I would have quoted this job three ways. Customer's choice.
I would offer removing the trim that is bad and replacing it with new. Next I would offer removing the trim that is bad and completely strip it down to the wood using a heat gun outdoors and then paint it. Finally I would offer sanded and painted OFF the wall if it is more than just a few areas. Also, depending on the amount of bad trim involved, simply sanding and painting in place could be just as expensive to do or more so than removal and stripping it down. I am almost positive this is a lead situation. The amount of lead protection required and involved brings the cost up enormously, and there is no way out. As we all know, the EPA fines for cheating the system are very high. And I wouldn't want lead dust in your house, or mine. If it's only bad in a few small areas, I could do it in place right on the wall. I would use a MEK based paint stripper and sand out to feather using my true HEPA vacuum. 

The cut work on the paint job and the caulking is terrible from looking at the few pictures, by the way.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

The caulking issue really surprises me. Even the cheapest caulking in the world holds up for a few months before cracks appear. It is very possible that they caulked and didn't let it dry properly before priming/painting over it. If they did that, then you would see cracks in the PAINT or PRIMER on top of the caulk that is not completely dry.

Caulk also attracts dust and dirt when it's wet which could be the other problem associated with the caulking. Just trying to throw a few things out there………After applying caulk, I always wait a day or two before priming or topcoating.


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## Jmayspaint (May 4, 2013)

Yea, the only thing I know that will make interior caulk crack like that is painting it before its cured all the way. Freezing can cause that too, but I doubt it could have froze inside even that close to the windows.
Most likely the cold and condensation around the windows slowed the drying time of the caulk. When uncured caulk is painted over and the paint film dries over it, the movement (shrinkage) of the caulk as it dries can crack the paint film like we're seeing in the pics. 
I have also seen similar problems from caulk that was previously frozen, or subjected to extreme temp changes before application. 

I'm not sure that removing the caulk is a good option in your situation at this point.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

JackoD said:


> Both products are pure garbage. I hope you don't use them.


Trust me, you will not win this pissing match:no::laughing:


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

chrisn said:


> Trust me, you will not win this pissing match:no::laughing:


Oh no, please don't tell me he is going to say good things about Alex and Dynaflex products?
 :whistling2:


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sloan said:


> Jacko….tried to send you a private message but it said you've elected to not receive them and/or aren't allowed to receive them. Maybe you can send one to me?
> There's also gap in the caulk at the crown molding where the grooves are. Those should be filled in, right?


I fixed my account and you should be able to PM me now. 


<> There's also gap in the caulk at the crown molding where the grooves are. Those should be filled in, right?[/

Right!


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

Sloan where did you find this painter? Please tell me it wasn't Craigs or Angie's list. If you don't stop him now it will only get worse. THIS MAN IS NOT A PAINTER.
Call and find out if painters in your location need a license if they do have an inspector come out. Because either this guy doesn't have one or if he does it needs to be pulled. 
This guy is not only hurting you he is hurting everyone who ever held a paintbrush and went into someone's home to do a professional paint job. He is giving each of us a black eye.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

ToolSeeker said:


> Sloan where did you find this painter? Please tell me it wasn't Craigs or Angie's list. If you don't stop him now it will only get worse. THIS MAN IS NOT A PAINTER.
> Call and find out if painters in your location need a license if they do have an inspector come out. Because either this guy doesn't have one or if he does it needs to be pulled.
> This guy is not only hurting you he is hurting everyone who ever held a paintbrush and went into someone's home to do a professional paint job. He is giving each of us a black eye.


Haha! I'm glad to be affirmed that this guy sucks. I found him online; literally nobody I know can recommend any painters (everyone I talk to says their painter was just meh) except for one friend who I don't fully trust recommended some Mexican guy who works for himself. I wasn't comfortable going with a not-legit company for such a big job, so I started researching companies on my own. I found this guy through the BBB; I figured it was a good sign for a company to bother being BBB certified and have a good grade. I got four different estimates and chose this guy (he was not the lowest estimate). 

It may be true that my trim requires more than a light sanding, but I don't feel like it's my problem that his quote might not be accurate. He walked through my house and looked at everything prior to giving me the estimate, and on the list of work to be done he clearly wrote "All trim prepped and painted". To me, that means you will do whatever prep it requires and paint it. He did not give me choices between different prep methods with different price points. I feel that I deserve to have the trim done in a professional manner for the stated price because that's what we agreed upon. 

Funny that not a single one of the painters I got quotes from mentioned anything special about lead paint. Awesome.


P.S. When you say "Call and find out if painters in your area need a license", call who? What would an inspector do? 

P.P.S. Jacko, still says you're not receiving PMs. Dang technology.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Gymschu said:


> The caulking issue really surprises me. Even the cheapest caulking in the world holds up for a few months before cracks appear. It is very possible that they caulked and didn't let it dry properly before priming/painting over it. If they did that, then you would see cracks in the PAINT or PRIMER on top of the caulk that is not completely dry.
> 
> Caulk also attracts dust and dirt when it's wet which could be the other problem associated with the caulking. Just trying to throw a few things out there………After applying caulk, I always wait a day or two before priming or topcoating.


I don't know how long it takes caulk to cure, but I know they definitely caulked and painted the trim in the same day. They were painting the trim in almost no time, so I assume they caulked and painted immediately afterward.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

These questions about licensing led me to my state's licensing website…in my state (TN), apparently painters are required to be licensed as Home Improvement Contractors when the work they'll be doing is priced at more than $3K. My job is definitely more than that. My painting company (and the individual that owns it) is definitely not licensed, even though they say they are. Awesome.

I guess that's on me for not doing the research; I had no idea this license verification website even existed. Also, I've run the name of every painter I've come across in my research through there and NONE of them are licensed. There are only 1.5 pages' worth of Home Improvement Contractors licensed in my area (the rest haven't renewed or were denied), and some of them are just individuals' names so maybe they could be painters, but there are only SEVEN companies with the word "paint" in their name that are licensed in my area. Seven! 

I Googled all seven of them and there is virtually zero information about them online. None of them have websites or reviews online. 

How is a consumer supposed to make the right decision when it's so hard to get good information? Word of mouth isn't reliable since everyone I heard about isn't licensed. Awesome website obviously isn't reliable. Are we just supposed to assume that companies that are licensed are better and we should go with them? Is there some kind of penalty for stating that you're licensed when you're not? How do all these painting companies get away with operating without a license?! It's all so confusing.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

Sloan said:


> These questions about licensing led me to my state's licensing website…in my state (TN), apparently painters are required to be licensed as Home Improvement Contractors when the work they'll be doing is priced at more than $3K. My job is definitely more than that. My painting company (and the individual that owns it) is definitely not licensed, even though they say they are. Awesome.
> 
> I guess that's on me for not doing the research; I had no idea this license verification website even existed. Also, I've run the name of every painter I've come across in my research through there and NONE of them are licensed. There are only 1.5 pages' worth of Home Improvement Contractors licensed in my area (the rest haven't renewed or were denied), and some of them are just individuals' names so maybe they could be painters, but there are only SEVEN companies with the word "paint" in their name that are licensed in my area. Seven!
> 
> ...


 
Go to your local Ben Moore( Sherwin, PPG, etc ) and ask. Do NOT ask @ the big box stores


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Sloan said:


> How is a consumer supposed to make the right decision when it's so hard to get good information? Word of mouth isn't reliable since everyone I heard about isn't licensed. Awesome website obviously isn't reliable. Are we just supposed to assume that companies that are licensed are better and we should go with them? Is there some kind of penalty for stating that you're licensed when you're not? How do all these painting companies get away with operating without a license?! It's all so confusing.


It's a pain in the neck. There is Angie's List, which I like, but some people are negative about that too.

One technique I'd use is to hire someone to do a small job (just paint one small room, for example.) You will get an idea of how good they are. You would be surprised though. Even if you came right out and said to them "I'm going to evaluate the quality of your work in this room. If it's good, I'm going to hire you to paint my whole house." You'd think they'd give it their absolute best effort. You'd be very surprised how many ****ty paint jobs you'd get doing that.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Gymschu said:


> The caulking issue really surprises me. Even the cheapest caulking in the world holds up for a few months before cracks appear.


Yeah, but it's definitely cracking - not hairs or dirt or anything like that.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

JackoD said:


> Both products are pure garbage.


Nonsense.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> No, I didn't. What I said is in plain sight to read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeff, I think you said more than enough. You have been trying very hard to bait me into arguing with you for a few posts now. I will not come down to your level and you may as well leave it alone now. You know you are wrong, I know you are wrong and most GOOD painters know you are wrong.
It is very uncomplimentary and a good indication of a persons IQ when they start demeaning others online with statements like "You sound like one of those guys that I don't want to get trapped talking to at a cocktail party", "Do we seriously need to copy that entire thing?", " Oy vay. Yes, we know you're very special, we get it", "Whatever pal. You're the genius", and the like.
I was trying hard to help Sloan get out of a jam. I was not trying to get into a argument with the likes of you. Keep pushing my hot buttons, it's ok.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

For the sake of the original poster we are not going to close this thread yet. Some remarks and posts have been removed. Just remember the forum rules.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I can paint. I would never caulk over *old* caulk. That just don't look right. Getting a consistent bead of caulk the whole run through requires that you be willing to fix any gaffs as you make them because the stuff skins over pretty fast. The pictures I looked at clearly show someone was in a big hurry and botched the caulking then painted it before it had set enough. It doesn't have to cure all the way because the paint is somewhat flexible too but it has to cure enough before you slap on the paint. In your situation I believe I could fix the caulk without stripping all of it. Most of the little cracks are in the paint rather than the caulk so just re painting it will work. Depending on how bad the gaffs are touch up may be possible. It is not old caulk yet so you have a little lee way there. Make them do what they promised.


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## bergerdude (Jan 3, 2010)

It's difficult to find any good contractor and painters seem to be the worst. We had the home painted for 5k with a friend of a friend. Our friends went to dinner with these folks, golfed with them... Knew them really well.

On the job the guy was friendly, but cut corners at any opportunity. Damaged our floor pulling the refrigerator out, didn't feel like painting in a corner because "no one will see that, " etc.

Very disappointing. We had on our contract to use Benjamin. Moore and found out a year later that he used Glidden.

My brother had painters over that would steal his beer in his fridge.

Good luck out there!


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

bergerdude said:


> It's difficult to find any good contractor and painters seem to be the worst.


This is in poor taste. 
Not all painters are the worst.
And no. I'm not a painter.


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## sublime2 (Mar 21, 2012)

123pugsy said:


> This is in poor taste.
> Not all painters are the worst.
> And no. I'm not a painter.


Think he meant, 
Painters are the worst when you are trying to find a good one.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

123pugsy said:


> This is in poor taste.
> Not all painters are the worst.


He didn't say or imply all painters are the worst. But as a general tendency and anecdotally speaking, I'd have to agree with him.

My friend (owns renovation company) hired a painter to paint a kitchen when he was done fixing it. The homeowners were to be out of town for the weekend, so he started Saturday, and they were to return Sunday afternoon. He decided to get into their beer supply Saturday evening, never started painting, feel asleep on their living room floor, which is where they found him when they returned earlier than expected Sunday morning.

We all know bad contractors in all the trades, but everyone I talk to tells me painters have the worst reputation.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Sloan said:


> I don't know how long it takes caulk to cure, but I know they definitely caulked and painted the trim in the same day.


Drying and curing are generally 2 different things. Painters like to use cheap, fast dry caulks such as Alex Fast Dry specifically for that reason - so they can paint over the caulk almost immediately. Alex Fast Dry claims you can paint in 1/2 hour. Top Gun 140 claims 1 hour. It wouldn't surprise me if they painted over it in 10 minutes, hence the cracking while the caulk finishes its shrinking underneath (1 possible explanation for your results).

However those manufacturer claims have to be taken with a grain of salt. For example, they have no idea how thick the bead of caulk is that you're applying, or how deep the crack goes that you're filling, so they really have no way of knowing how long your specific caulk job will take to dry.

Gymschu recommends waiting a day, which is always safer. For most paint crews in the current industry, it's just not going to be acceptable if a painter tells his boss he's got to wait until the next day to paint it. The boss will tell the painter that everyone else can do it in the same day.

When caulking the angle between a wall and trim, the trim and wall are different colors. i.e. I'm not painting that wall paint edge completely over the full caulk bead, only over the edge of the caulk, where it is very thin, and can dry very quickly. A situation where you'd be painting over the full caulk bead would be when caulking the transition between trim pieces.
http://homeownerbob.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/100_0923.jpg

But as you can see, that caulk is very thin, and wouldn't look like your situation. Looking at your photos, it seems like they might have applied a thicker bead of caulk than needed, and then painted over it too quickly.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks for all the input guys, this is really helpful information.

Tomorrow is the showdown: they're supposed to finish up, the owner is supposed to do his own little walk-through, then tell us when he is done. He's told me he knows there are "areas of trim that need more attention", so it will be interesting to see what things look like when he deems it finished. I doubt he's expecting what we're going to say: you need to re-do virtually all of it.

Really discouraging how hard it is to find a decent painter. Perhaps this is another threads' worth of advice (I suspect others would be interested to hear pros' inputs), but I have no idea how to go about finding someone else to fix the trim if it comes to that. Do pros suggest hiring only painters with a license? That really makes things slim pickins where I live.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

The best painters might not bother with the license, and the worst painters might get one to look more legit. Doesn't do you much good. Angie's List is a good start.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> The best painters might not bother with the license, and the worst painters might get one to look more legit. Doesn't do you much good. Angie's List is a good start.


 
I already suggested going to a real paint store and asking, they are not going to recommend hacks.
I would trust angies list about as much as consumer reports ( like, not at all):no:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

There's a big difference between Angie's List and Consumer Reports. Angie's List reviews are written by a huge community of actual customers. Consumer Reports are written by some little group of guys in a lab who might or might not understand the best criteria by which to judge. Not to mention the fact that they don't rate painters.

Getting recommendations from a paint store might work great, but personally I'd be suspicious that they simply recommend their biggest paint buyers. Judging by the paint job in my local Sherwin Williams store, I'm not sure I'd want them recommending anyone to me.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

Recommendations from friends, family, neighbors are the best way, as I said before.
So is asking the manager of your local Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore store. 
And even though I take advantage of free advertising on Craigs List myself, I would not recommend you do so. It is loaded with flunkies and con-artists.

If you don't have friends or family in your area, try calling here to get started. They will not be specific but will point you in the right direction for getting help finding a quality contractor in your area:

Painting and Decorating Contractors of
America
1801 Park 270 Drive, Suite 220
St. Louis, MO 63146
Telephone: (314) 514-7322
www.pdca.com 

Good luck Sloan


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sloan, here are some points to mull over in your mind before you do your final walkthrough.
This is the basis for acceptable quality work regarding Touch Up Painting and Damage Repair throughout the nation .

Touch Up Painting and Damage Repair: *Financial Responsibility* and *Definition of a Properly Painted Surface*
Scope
1.1. The purpose of this standard is to establish the financial responsibilities for repair or correction of damage to finished painted surfaces.
1.2. It is the intent of this document to define “Touch up.”
1.3. A “properly painted surface” is also defined in this standard.
2. Significance and Use
2.1. This standard defines the repair and repainting of finished painted surfaces that have been damaged by individuals other than those employed by the painting and decorating contractor. This type of damage is defined as *“damage caused by others.”* Damage caused by others will be corrected by the painting and decorating contractor after a contract, legal and binding, is received from the contracting entity.
The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis.
*“Latent damage”* is due to conditions beyond the control of the painting and decorating contractor. This damage is caused by conditions not apparent at the time of initial painting and decorating.
The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis.
2.2. The contractual work is job and item specific. In no case shall the painting and decorating contractor be responsible for “damage caused by others” or “latent damage” as herein described.
2.3. The painting and decorating contractor will produce a “properly painted surface.” A “properly painted surface” is defined as uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. It is also free of foreign material, lumps, skins, runs, sags, holidays, misses, or insufficient coverage. It is also a surface free of drips, spatters, spills or overspray caused by the painting and decorating contractor’s workforce. In order to determine whether a surface has been “properly painted” it shall be examined without magnification at a distance of thirty-nine (39) inches or one (1) meter, or more, under finished lighting conditions and from a normal viewing position.
3. Reference Documents and Standards
3.1. ASTM, Volume 6.01, of ASTM standard, D16-00 (published September 2000).
3.2. SSPC, SSPC Painting Manual Vol. 2, Eighth edition 2000, Standard SSPC-PA 1, 9.0 Field Coating, 9.3 Touch Up of Shop Coated Surfaces.
3.3. Painting and Decorating Encyclopedia, William Brushwell, Published by Goodheart-Wilcox, Touch up.
3.4. PDCA Painting and Decorating Craftsman’s Manual and Textbook, 1995, 8th edition. Touch up.
3.5. MPI, The Master Painters Glossary – Painting and Decorating Terminology, 1997& 2004.
3.6. AIA Document A 201 General Conditions of the Contract for Construction 1997.
3.7. AIA Document A 401 Standard Form of Agreement Between Contractor and Subcontractor 1997.
3.8. PDCA Standard P9-04, Definition of Trade Terms.
3.9. FSCT, Coating Encyclopedic Dictionary, Edited by Stanley LeSota, 1995.
3.10. Black’s Law Dictionary, 7th Edition, Bryan A. Garner, 1999
3.11. SSPC, Protective Coatings Glossary.
3.12. Webster’s New World Collegiate Dictionary, 4th Edition, 2002.
3.13. If there is a conflict between any of the references and this standard, then the requirements of this standard shall prevail.
4. Definitions
4.1. CHANGE ORDER: An agreement to modify or alter the original contract work. This includes but is not limited to, corrective work for “damage caused by others” and “latent damage.” Adjustments to the contract amount and completion time should be part of this agreement. The change order will be issued


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.


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## PoleCat (Sep 2, 2009)

Finding a good anything is hard. From doctor to mechanic to painter or any other kind of pro. That is in no way a slight to the many good ones out there. Its just how it is when you're looking for one. The good ones aren't trying to sell themselves because they don't need to. This makes them a lot harder to find when you have to battle through an army of hacks to unearth them.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

PoleCat said:


> Finding a good anything is hard. From doctor to mechanic to painter or any other kind of pro. That is in no way a slight to the many good ones out there. Its just how it is when you're looking for one. The good ones aren't trying to sell themselves because they don't need to. This makes them a lot harder to find when you have to battle through an army of hacks to unearth them.


How things have changed over the years. You are right, it's hard to even find a good doctor nowadays. Thankfully I found a great one many years ago and I stick with him. And mechanics... 'oh boy, I can tell you stories.
As you say, the good ones in most anything don't have to sell themselves and they stay busy. 
Funny thing, I started advertising years ago on Craigslist along with various trade magazines and local newspapers.
I don't even bother with anything now except references and Craigslist and CL only because I have pulled quite a few jobs from there in the past and it has become a habit I find hard to break. Plus, I love to go on there anyways looking for antique woodworking tools, certain collectables and real wooden antique furniture as I collect things like that. As long as I'm on there it only takes a second to pop an ad on there. It can be interesting.
Have a great day.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

ToolSeeker said:


> I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.


I have a lot of customers who shopped Angies and weren't happy. They said the same thing you said...:wink:


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

Jacko, those standards are confusing. It says they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage, but they will produce a properly painted surface as defined by being uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. What if it's impossible to create such a surface due to "damage caused by others" (i.e. previous bad paint jobs)?

It also says they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed.

The walk through did not go well to put it mildly. F-bombs were yelled (by the painter, not us); lawsuits were threatened (by the painter, not us); things were thrown (by the painter, not us). Soooo yes, it is hard to find decent professionals.

On the bright side, I really like the colors I chose, even if the details are a mess.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Forget all that nonsense. If someone is bad, they're going to be bad regardless of a contract. If someone is good, they're going to be good regardless of a contract. Obviously contracts are useful, mostly for just documenting what was agreed on to be done for future reference, and also in case something catastrophic happens, you at least have something signed that shows small claims court you actually had a formal agreement to do something. But it won't really save you. I've won small claims cases before and still didn't get paid. Bottom line, finding good people trumps good contracts.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sloan said:


> Jacko, those standards are confusing. It says they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage, but they will produce a properly painted surface as defined by being uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. What if it's impossible to create such a surface due to "damage caused by others" (i.e. previous bad paint jobs)?
> 
> It also says they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed.
> 
> ...


Well, the when it says "they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage" it means exactly that. The only way around that clause is to be specific in the contract, it should state that those particular issues will be addressed and corrected. This would ONLY APPLY IF it is agreed upon and written into the contract.
When it says "they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed." *The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis.* It simply means money. It means you sign a contract stating it will be corrected, but you will have to pay extra for the corrections to apply. Again, this would only apply IF it is agreed upon and written into the contract.
And yes, it may sound confusing. But in reality, there isn't much one gets for free, is there? Exclusive contracts like this are extremely important in some situations, especially commercial and industrial work especially. I have some jobs that are well into the five figure range and every "i" must be dotted and every "t" must be crossed. 

I can't speak for others, but when I create a proposal and then a quote, I make sure I point out every minor and major detail to my customers right up front. And I take pictures, lots of them, before and after. I don't want a customer unhappy after the fact and I make sure we are in agreement. For instance, I make sure the customer knows and understands that if there are issues such as old chipped paint areas, they will certainly show up after painting unless corrected properly. Proper correction cost money, additional money. I also make it a point to keep the customer involved throughout the job process. That to me is a very important part of the process.
Once in a while a hidden issue will pop up along the way on certain jobs, requiring unexpected work, a change order and of course, additional monies.
Believe it or not, this can be a burden more to a business than the customer.

It am so sorry to hear the final walkthrough didn't go well for you and he showed his ignorant side.
But remember, you have the money in your pocket, he doesn't.
That goes a long way and he will likely try to come to an agreement with you after he gives it some thought.
Personally, at this point, after he showed you his ignorance using the f- bomb, etc., I would look for someone else.
Keep us informed.


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## ParagonEx (Sep 14, 2011)

It's just painting. Surely it couldn't have been that bad.


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

jeffnc said:


> There's a big difference between Angie's List and Consumer Reports. Angie's List reviews are written by a huge community of actual customers. Consumer Reports are written by some little group of guys in a lab who might or might not understand the best criteria by which to judge. Not to mention the fact that they don't rate painters.
> 
> Getting recommendations from a paint store might work great, but personally I'd be suspicious that they simply recommend their biggest paint buyers. Judging by the paint job in my local Sherwin Williams store, I'm not sure I'd want them recommending anyone to me.


 
Sure, but all you have to do to get ranked high on AL is to get someone to give you a good recommendation and then pay them ( AL). $$ talks, not the quality of the painter( or whom ever)


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

ToolSeeker said:


> I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.


 
you got it:thumbsup:


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Forget all that nonsense. If someone is bad, they're going to be bad regardless of a contract. If someone is good, they're going to be good regardless of a contract. Obviously contracts are useful, mostly for just documenting what was agreed on to be done for future reference, and also in case something catastrophic happens, you at least have something signed that shows small claims court you actually had a formal agreement to do something. But it won't really save you. I've won small claims cases before and still didn't get paid. Bottom line, finding good people trumps good contracts.


Court? Hey, how did it go being in a courtroom? Just wondering as I have never had any need to go to court with any customer. Why did you have to go to court? Things couldn't have been worked out between you and your customers without such drastic action? 
Thankfully all I know about a courtroom is watching television once in a blue moon.:confused1:


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

JackoD said:


> Court? Come on, really...court? Hey, how did it go being in a courtroom?


What are you talking about? Contracts are often used when lawsuits and court cases are involved.



JackoD said:


> Were you nervous?


No.



JackoD said:


> Were you worried?


No.



JackoD said:


> Why did you have to go to court?


In on case a company I hired to put in new windows in my house put in cracked and internally dirty double pane windows, and I had to get my money back. In another case an HVAC company charged me $4,000 for a new air handler when all I needed as a new $25 thermostat.



JackoD said:


> Things couldn't have been worked out between you and your customers (sounds like more than once, 'eh) without such drastic action?


What are you talking about?



JackoD said:


> Glad it worked out for you, carry on my friend.


As I already said, it didn't work out. The judge decided in my favor, due the contract and the results. However, due to the legal system, they couldn't collect money from either party. I did get my money back for the HVAC because I paid with credit card, so I declined the charge and let my credit card company deal with it.

Bottom line: as I already said, contracts can't necessarily save you if the contractor is bad. And if he's good, you don't need one.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Sure, but all you have to do to get ranked high on AL is to get someone to give you a good recommendation and then pay them ( AL). $$ talks, not the quality of the painter( or whom ever)


Not really sure what you mean. I have a high rating. Yes, they keep calling me asking me to advertise, but I've never paid them a dime. You don't get a higher rating by paying them. What you get is higher visibility - showing up higher on search lists, etc. But not higher reviews. Still, people find me on Angie's List and I've gotten a lot of business from there.

I suppose you could ask a few friends or relatives to give you some reviews. It would be pretty hard to get dozens that way. All my reviews were just volunteered. Can someone pay off people to give them good reviews? I'm sure that's possible.

But let me ask you this: if the contractor involved in this thread were on Angie's List, do you think the OP would give a good or bad review?


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> What are you talking about? Contracts are often used when lawsuits and court cases are involved.
> Bottom line: as I already said, contracts can't necessarily save you if the contractor is bad. And if he's good, you don't need one.


READ my post and you will see what I am talking about...Happy New Year
rofl
:wink:


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Not really sure what you mean. I have a high rating. Yes, they keep calling me asking me to advertise, but I've never paid them a dime. You don't get a higher rating by paying them. What you get is higher visibility - showing up higher on search lists, etc. But not higher reviews. Still, people find me on Angie's List and I've gotten a lot of business from there.
> 
> I suppose you could ask a few friends or relatives to give you some reviews. It would be pretty hard to get dozens that way. All my reviews were just volunteered. Can someone pay off people to give them good reviews? I'm sure that's possible.
> 
> But let me ask you this: if the contractor involved in this thread were on Angie's List, do you think the OP would give a good or bad review?


There are companies who do nothing but post good reviews in exchange for money. Pretty shady, but true!

I would give the worst review possible…except that I signed some document basically saying I wouldn't say anything bad about him in exchange for a big discount on the job (red flag: he had this document at the ready in his truck). Once I have time to consult my lawyer friend about how to get around this, I'll be sure to reveal his name and leave negative reviews everywhere I can.


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## eandjsdad (Dec 22, 2013)

So a combination of intimidation and extortion got you to sign.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Sloan said:


> I would give the worst review possible…except that I signed some document basically saying I wouldn't say anything bad about him in exchange for a big discount on the job (red flag: he had this document at the ready in his truck).


What???? Why on earth would you go for something like that??


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

Sloan said:


> There are companies who do nothing but post good reviews in exchange for money. Pretty shady, but true!
> 
> I would give the worst review possible…except that I signed some document basically saying I wouldn't say anything bad about him in exchange for a big discount on the job (red flag: he had this document at the ready in his truck). Once I have time to consult my lawyer friend about how to get around this, I'll be sure to reveal his name and leave negative reviews everywhere I can.


It appears you got exactly what you "signed up" for.

If the guy shows a document like that, he already knows he is going to slap on anything he can, as quick as he can.

Looks like he will be coming after you for the balance. He knows his way around judging by the no yak contract he had you sign.


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

PoleCat said:


> I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but I can paint. I would never caulk over *old* caulk. That just don't look right.


There ya go, exactly.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Sloan, so sorry your project went the way it did. I've been at it for 34 years and can count on one hand disputes with a homeowner about my work. And, if there was a dispute, I made it right ASAP. Not because of a contract, but because I had pride in what I was doing and I wanted each and every customer to feel like they got MORE THAN A GREAT DEAL. Believe me, there are some great painters out there but they are usually so busy that they can't do every job. Hope it works out. And, by the way, very unprofessional for your painter to use F-bombs in your home……unacceptable.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

eandjsdad said:


> So a combination of intimidation and extortion got you to sign.


Pretty much.

Jeff, I went for it because the choices were: a) refuse to pay him the balance and hope that he was bluffing about suing us, or b) sign this thing to get a big discount off the balance and never have to deal with this guy again. The document keeps us from speaking badly about him but also includes what the new final balance is. I chose B because even though I think he was probably bluffing about the whole lawsuit thing, if he wasn't and we actually ended up in court I don't think we would win. Like someone said way back, our problems with the paint job itself were just minor things…it's not like he put a hole in our wall or something. I don't think us refusing to pay him would hold up in court based on the wording of our original contract.

I probably should've told him to just get out, paid him nothing and invited him to sue. I doubt he actually would have. But what's done is done, and I'll still report him for painting without a license. It's just a $1K fine, but it'll make me feel better knowing he has to pay it!


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## HighGlossPL38 (Nov 19, 2013)

*If you think this guy isn't even licensed by your state*



Sloan said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Jeff, I went for it because the choices were: a) refuse to pay him the balance and hope that he was bluffing about suing us, or b) sign this thing to get a big discount off the balance and never have to deal with this guy again. The document keeps us from speaking badly about him but also includes what the new final balance is. I chose B because even though I think he was probably bluffing about the whole lawsuit thing, if he wasn't and we actually ended up in court I don't think we would win. Like someone said way back, our problems with the paint job itself were just minor things…it's not like he put a hole in our wall or something. I don't think us refusing to pay him would hold up in court based on the wording of our original contract.
> 
> I probably should've told him to just get out, paid him nothing and invited him to sue. I doubt he actually would have. But what's done is done, and I'll still report him for painting without a license. It's just a $1K fine, but it'll make me feel better knowing he has to pay it!


*Look back at the 4th post by jmayspaint...*

_*"Yes sanding the trim, and often the walls is standard prep. On a 1950's house, lead testing should be done before any sanding/scraping. Fairly high chances of lead paint in houses of that age. Hope your guy is RRP certified as required. "*_

Was your 1950's house lead tested? Were you given the proper information materials prior to him starting the job? Was your signature given on a proper EPA document that the painter contractor has on file proving that you were informed of the hazards of lead? If he sanded anything in your house....... could be a big uh oh for him. *There is a company in my area that just went through hell because of a teed-off customer. **And he is now scrutinized by the EPA on every job he puts his hands on. This guy has been in business longer than me, over 35 years. I'm betting he will fold soon due to the pressure.* It's sad for him, he's a great guy but one little slip up and things can get ugly real fast.


Violations of the Toxic Substances Control Act (“TSCA”), the Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act, and the Renovation, Repair and Painting Rule (“RRP Rule”), 40 C.F.R. Part 745, Subpart E. The ESA alleges the following RRP Rule violations:
•Failure to Document Delivery of the Lead Hazard Information Pamphlet to the Property Owners. The United States alleges that Mac *****er violated the Renovation, Repair and Painting Rule by failing to document that it provided a copy of the “Renovate Right” pamphlet to two of the property owners prior to commencing renovation activities.
•Failure to Establish and Maintain Records. The Unites States alleges that Mac Stringer violated the Renovation, Repair, and Painting Rule by failing to establish and maintain records certifying that the work practice standards required by the RRP Rule were complied with at each of the three properties.
Civil Penalty
A local company here in my area was just fined $5000.00 for not conforming. to the EPA requirements.
Mac ******er Painting Co.will pay a penalty of $5,000 pursuant to the Lead-based Paint Expedited Settlement Agreement Pilot Program. Under the ESA pilot, significantly reduced penalties are offered to respondents in order to facilitate quick settlement.

If you think this guy isn't even licensed by your state to do work I would wonder if he is licensed by the Federal EPA, which is a must.

http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/lead-renovation-repair-and-painting-rule#macstringer

And look at just how serious this stuff can be... people can wind up in PRISON easily for non-conformance, not just be fined. This is no joking matter now-a-days.
*Examples of Investigations that Led to Successful Prosecutions*

*Baltimore City Landlord Sentenced to Prison for Lead Paint Violations*

On June 6, 2012, Cephus R. Murrell was sentenced to a year and a day in prison, followed by six months of home detention as part of one year supervised release, for improper lead paint abatement at rental properties owned and managed by Murrell, as well as failure to disclose to tenants the presence of documented lead-based paint hazards.
Murrell is the president and owner of C. MURRELL BUSINESS CONSULTANTS, INC., through which Murrell owns and manages approximately 68 rental properties with 175 rental housing units throughout Baltimore. All of these properties were built before 1978 and are subject to federal, state and local laws and regulations pertaining to the risks associated with lead-paint exposure. The Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE) or its predecessor agencies have conducted environmental lead inspections for many years at properties owned by Murrell after discovering that children with elevated lead blood levels were living there. These inspections identified numerous lead hazards in tenants’ homes. The state of Maryland and the city of Baltimore have issued more than 20 Notices of Violation and compliance orders against Murrell and/or his company, C. Murrell Business Consultants, for lead-based paint violations, including situations in which a child with an elevated blood lead level was documented as living in a rental property leased by Murrell. Additionally, Murrell entered into a number of Consent Decrees with the State and City of Baltimore designed to achieve compliance with applicable lead requirements.
On July 19, 2011, Murrell pleaded guilty to three misdemeanor counts of violating the Toxic Substances Control Act. According to his guilty plea, Murrell had workers conduct lead-paint abatement work at one of his apartments while the tenants and their children were present on site, in violation of the lead-paint abatement regulations. In addition, Murrell admitted that there were several instances in which he falsely certified to MDE that workers would be conducting lead abatement work and that a particular supervisor would be on site to supervise the work, when in fact, no supervisor was on site, also in violation of the lead-paint abatement regulations. Finally, Murrell admitted that he and his company failed to disclose to tenants the presence of documented lead-based paint hazards when they rented units he owned and managed. Many of these units had a history of lead-based paint problems that had been documented by MDE. 

*Just saying... paybacks can be a real Bwitch. Makes one wonder if getting loud, if throwing F-bombs and threatening gestures around, could come back to cost you, dearly.*
*The next time some shady character tosses a "No Talkie" Contract your way, toss them back a EPA Lead RRP Brochure if he wasn't legit in the first place and see what he says then.*


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

Sloan said:


> Jeff, I went for it because the choices were: a) refuse to pay him the balance and hope that he was bluffing about suing us, or b) sign this thing to get a big discount off the balance and never have to deal with this guy again.


Oh I see, this was something you signed after you started having an issue. Well, that makes sense I guess. I thought you signed that up front when he gave an estimate.


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## 123pugsy (Oct 6, 2012)

jeffnc said:


> Oh I see, this was something you signed after you started having an issue. Well, that makes sense I guess. I thought you signed that up front when he gave an estimate.


I thought the same thing as well.


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## ToolSeeker (Sep 19, 2012)

After he is gone I would contact everyone I could and tell them what happened ask them to send in a bad review, done everyday and why places like Angies is so unreliable. If you have a TV station in your area that does consumer segments contact them. Take a copy of the thing he made you sign and some pics. Take them to your local paint stores, all of them. They may recommending this guy. In fact if it was me I might take his paperwork and a lot of pics and look into small claims.
Sorry but I get a little carried away over something like this. It hurts everyone of us that is out there busting his a## everyday to do a great job and make their customers happy.


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## jeffnc (Apr 1, 2011)

I know. Like my sister - she had some yahoo come in to her bathroom and did a crap job. He was kind of a low life, and didn't look like he made much money. She felt sorry for him - didn't want to withhold his money or give him a bad review. I told her she was doing everyone a disservice - her, his competitors who do good work and deserve the job, other customers, and yes even him, because he needs to learn the lesson that he needs to improve his work or get into a different line of work.


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## Sloan (Dec 26, 2013)

jeffnc said:


> Oh I see, this was something you signed after you started having an issue. Well, that makes sense I guess. I thought you signed that up front when he gave an estimate.


Ha!!! That would be shady as hell.

Thanks for the ideas guys. I'm definitely going to be talking to one of my lawyer friends to see what all I can get away with despite having signed this document, as I suspect this guy will continue to do this to other people. 

My husband and I went looking for the original contract we signed…we know where we left it, and it's gone. Almost sure the guy stole it. What the heck?!

Some people are the worst. I'm eternally grateful to all you guys for your advice and support, this situation has sucked but it's been immensely helpful to have some professional painters available to talk to about it!


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## chrisn (Dec 23, 2007)

I certainly would ignore his threats to sue, this hack could not possibly afford it anyway


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## cdpainting (Jan 3, 2014)

I have been painting for 20+ yrs and as soon as a home owner wants to talk or do a walk thru I meet with them to go over what ever their concerns are. Any contractor you are not happy with you have every right to hold the final payment weather it's 10% or 90%, we are here to make your home look amazing. As the home owner you have ever right to stop the workers from working if your not happy with the job they are doing, you have every right to be upset, painting is expensive. 
I agree with some posters that your home may contain lead paint which should have been tested. 
Any contractor who threatens to sue a home owner over final payments does not know the laws regardless of what the contracts states. It is you home you are paying for a professional painting job not a high school hack job.
I feel bad this happened to you. We have tons of shady painting contractors around here that simple stiff the home owners then threaten to sue if not paid in full. 90% of the time the home owner wins in court.
Do not let this experience ruin it for you if you need more painting done im the future, you know what just happened and will know what to do if it ever happens again. 
His wording about you not bad mouthing his company, don't bad mouth him, just say if any one asks you who did your painting explain what happened, what you tried to do to make it perfect and simple say call this other company instead.


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