# 2 wire outlets: connect neutral to ground?



## Pudge565 (Jan 27, 2008)

i think both those options are out. the only way i know of is putting in a GFCI and taking all the other recpticals off of the load side. BTW Happy fourth of July.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Do NOT connect the neutral to the ground. It is illegal and unsafe.

If this is an apartment, you should not be doing any electrical work. In many (most) jurisdictions, it is illegal and the liability you are incurring working on somebody elses property is way more trouble than yo want.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

The connection of the neutral to ground on a grounding type receptacle is a very bad idea. Remember the neutral is a current carrying wire, connecting it to the ground screw of the receptacle allows current that should be only on the neutral a new path to follow other than the one back to the main panel and then to the center tap of the transformer (source). If you plug a 3 prong appliance into the receptacle neutral current may under the right conditions flow from the neutral to the ground screw to the ground wire of the appliance power cord then to the metal frame of the appliance ..... if you touch the appliance and provide a ground path back to the source you could be shocked or worse.


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## border collie (Jul 5, 2008)

Stubbie said:


> The connection of the neutral to ground on a grounding type receptacle is a very bad idea. Remember the neutral is a current carrying wire, connecting it to the ground screw of the receptacle allows current that should be only on the neutral a new path to follow other than the one back to the main panel and then to the center tap of the transformer (source). If you plug a 3 prong appliance into the receptacle neutral current may under the right conditions flow from the neutral to the ground screw to the ground wire of the appliance power cord then to the metal frame of the appliance ..... if you touch the appliance and provide a ground path back to the source you could be shocked or worse.


I see. You make this point clearly - I understand why it's such a bad idea. In a normal outlet, ground goes to the panel grounding bar with neutral connecting there, but any current flow will go to ground rather than back to the outlet and a person. I've always wondered why it's different for ground and neutral to be connected at the panel, but bad to connect together at an outlet.

Thank you.

I acknowledge that working on the landlord's electrical property is not a good idea.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

You have it almost correct. Neutral current will not go to ground assuming the service neutral is intact back to the serving transformer center tap. Neutral and ground are bonded at the service equipment ( 'Main' disconnect panel) so that neutral current from branch circuits and feeders and fault currents (if any) can return to the transformer (not ground). The only path back to the transformer is the service neutral so both equipment ground and grounded legs (neutrals) are bonded to the service neutral at the 'main' panel to allow this low impedance path back to the center tap. Current will not flow to earth in any appreciable amps do to the high resistance of dirt to current flow. 

Bear in mind current will take all paths available to get back to the source transformer (including the earth) however given a low impedance path virtually all current will flow on that path. In the attached diagram I've shown the path for current in the event of a fault at a receptacle, same logic applies to your grounded legs and neutrals


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## border collie (Jul 5, 2008)

Thank you for the diagram, Mr. Stubby, and the additional explanation. I appreciate the time people have taken here to help me.


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## downunder (Jun 13, 2008)

Now that's what I like about this forum!


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Stubbie said:


> You have


You're just a regular Picasso there Stubbie.:thumbsup:


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## Knucklez (Oct 21, 2007)

if you really wanted to change and are ok with being a pain in the a$$ tenant..

scour the code book and look for something that was not wired to code back in the day when it was installed. perhaps the box is overful with wires & marrets? or perhaps a wire along its way to the box is rubbing up against the side of a vent (needs minimum clearance). 

then when the landlord "fixes" teh minor issue they are obligated to upgrade to current code - which includes proper 3 wire system.

ps. if ANYTHING is not to the code of when the original wiring was done, then it is NOT GRANDFATHERED period. so that excuse is out the window.

Knucklez


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Knucklez said:


> if you really wanted to change and are ok with being a pain in the a$$ tenant..
> 
> scour the code book and look for something that was not wired to code back in the day when it was installed. perhaps the box is overful with wires & marrets? or perhaps a wire along its way to the box is rubbing up against the side of a vent (needs minimum clearance).
> 
> ...


most often, not true. A repair does not invoke any sort of update other than the specific area being worked on, at most, in most jurisdictions.

in other words, if a 2 wire recep needs to be replaced, it does not have to be upgraded to a 3 wire recep not will it require a EGC be installed.

Each local jurisdiction applies their own rules but it usually takes something quite major for the OP's situation to be mandated to be upgraded to current code.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

Knucklez said:


> then when the landlord "fixes" teh minor issue they are obligated to upgrade to current code - which includes proper 3 wire system.
> 
> ps. if ANYTHING is not to the code of when the original wiring was done, then it is NOT GRANDFATHERED period. so that excuse is out the window.
> 
> Knucklez


Is that how it works in Canada? Not in the USA. So adding a receptacle or changing a light fixture will result in a complete building re-wire to the latest code? Wow.


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## rgsgww (Jul 5, 2008)

border collie said:


> I have some limitations in what I do: I'm in an apartment with 2 prong outlets. The Kitchen has 3 prong outlets but there is no ground wire but there is a GFI outlet at the beginning of that run, so I see how the kitchen is allowed to have 3 prong outlets with no connection to ground.
> Question one: Does it make any sense, or is it a hazard, to connect a wire from neutral to ground in these 3 prong outlets?
> 
> I have no access to run a ground wire to any outlet.
> ...



Do NOT change any of the wiring, in the event of an electrical fire, YOU could be held responsible, what if somebody dies in the fire? Im not saying you will mess up. Id just stay away from this.


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## jrclen (Feb 20, 2008)

rgsgww said:


> Do NOT change any of the wiring, in the event of an electrical fire, YOU could be held responsible, what if somebody dies in the fire? Im not saying you will mess up. Id just stay away from this.


Very good advice. :thumbsup: Have the landlord replace the other 2 prong receptacle outlets with GFCI receptacles as was done in the kitchen.


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## Stubbie (Jan 7, 2007)

nap said:


> You're just a regular Picasso there Stubbie.:thumbsup:


HA HA

Yep I am above average in the manipulation of PAINT....I especially like creating my on custom colors.....

Picasso is a bit over board though........:thumbsup:


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## ezsail (Oct 13, 2011)

Okay then riddle me this. In my two wire system (black - hot, white - netrual ) all the white wires are connected to to a bus that is also connected to the netrual wire from the transformer and also to connected to a wire connected to rebar driven in the earth ouside the house next to the breaker box. Now other systems in my area (Houston, Texas) that have 3 wires (black, white copper ground) both the white and copper ground wires are connected to the same bus configured as the 2 wire system above. Since electrons travel at the speed of light are you trying to tell me that there is a difference in how an outlet works wether the white or copper wire are connected to the ground when both of them are connected at the breaker panel? 

Now if you have a two wire system and the white wire only goes back to the transformer and not to ground at the breaker box then connecting the white wire to ground on an outlet would be a problem.

Also if you chose to connect the white wire to netural and ground, you must first make sure that the black wire at the outlet is hot and someone didn't cross wires at some point...


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## Jim Port (Sep 21, 2007)

If you create a bootleg ground by tying the neutral to the ground screw you risk energizing any metallic part of the circuit. This could create serious shock hazards.

Ground rods do not play a part in the proper grounding of a receptacle.


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## mpoulton (Jul 23, 2009)

ezsail said:


> Okay then riddle me this. In my two wire system (black - hot, white - netrual ) all the white wires are connected to to a bus that is also connected to the netrual wire from the transformer and also to connected to a wire connected to rebar driven in the earth ouside the house next to the breaker box. Now other systems in my area (Houston, Texas) that have 3 wires (black, white copper ground) both the white and copper ground wires are connected to the same bus configured as the 2 wire system above. Since electrons travel at the speed of light are you trying to tell me that there is a difference in how an outlet works wether the white or copper wire are connected to the ground when both of them are connected at the breaker panel?
> 
> Now if you have a two wire system and the white wire only goes back to the transformer and not to ground at the breaker box then connecting the white wire to ground on an outlet would be a problem.
> 
> Also if you chose to connect the white wire to netural and ground, you must first make sure that the black wire at the outlet is hot and someone didn't cross wires at some point...


This thread is three years old; it's not an ongoing discussion. Start a new one if you have a question.

But to address your "riddle": your understanding is correct, for normal operating conditions. Lots of crazy installations will work as long as nothing goes wrong. Many of the rules and wiring practices are intended to prevent and control the consequences of failures. Consider what happens if the conductor returning current to the panel (neutral, or ground in the improper installation you contemplate) is interrupted. What happens to the "grounded" metal objects on that circuit if the grounding conductor is used as the current return conductor?

But don't answer that question here in this 3-year-old thread.


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## flojog (Apr 12, 2013)

I was trolling the web looking for answers. I'm a retired navy electrician. I love the theory portion of electricity and get to explain it every now and again. But every once in a while, I need to go looking for better ways to do just that. My brother called and tossed me a 'pop-quiz.' Receptacles, ground and neutral bonding. I knew the answer was don't do it, but I wanted to give the reason why.

My search brought me here. Great explanation Stubbie. I feel like I learned something today. 

Flo


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## OCPik4chu (Sep 22, 2012)

woah, holy double thread resurrection batman!


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